# Certification



## SahBumNimRush (Jan 20, 2012)

Rather than hijacking the thread this sidebar discussion arose on, I thought I would post more about it here.. .



mastercole said:


> When you say pre-Kukkiwon curriculum I assume  you mean a curriculum from some point in time of the old Taekwondo  Moodukkwan. or maybe the older Tang Soo Do Moodukkwan?  Do you and your  students apply for certification through Soobahkdo Moodukkwan, Korea   ---  or Taekwondo Moodukkwan, Korea?
> 
> I know GM Ahn changed over to Kukkiwon style from Tang Soo Do back in  the 70's, but he still received his 9th Dan from Taekwondo Moodukkwan,  in addition to Kukkiwon.



When I say "pre-Kukkiwon curriculum"  I mean, that our forms are:  Kicho Hyungs 1-3, Pyung Ahn Hyungs 1-5, Bassai, Naihanchi Hyungs 1-3, Chinto, Kong Sang Kun, etc.. .  Our terminology is slightly different than the KKW standard.  For example Jassae is used for Stance rather than Seogi and Hyung is used rather than Poomsae.  I do not know any Taeguk or KKW Yudanja forms.  

GM Kang has a certificates through Taekwondo Moo Duk Kwan and Kukkiwon.  I really don't know if the certificates that he issues have any direct association with any organization back in Korea, or if they are strictly "in house certificates."  

All certificates are signed:

Sok Ho Kang, President
Korean Tae Kwon Do Association
Moo Duk Kwan
State of West Virginia


Here is my 5th Dan certificate:








The question arose that since my KJN is Kukkiwon certified, shouldn't I be?  My response is that while my KJN is Kukkiwon certified, we do not practice KKW curriculum, so I'm not sure how me being KKW certified is relevant or important.  I would welcome comments on those who may have been in a situation like this, and what they're feelings on the matter are.


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## Twin Fist (Jan 20, 2012)

KKW people automatically assume everyone either is or wants to be KKW certified too.

as for your case, if you dont practice the KKW material no you should not be KKW certified.


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## Gemini (Jan 20, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> KKW people automatically assume everyone either is or wants to be KKW certified too.
> 
> as for your case, if you dont practice the KKW material no you should not be KKW certified.


I'm a KKW person who says this statement is a sweeping generalization and simply not true. But if you're going to have a certification from a governing body, it seems you should know and practice the curriculum that is the standard for that governing body. Isn't that the whole point of any governing body having a standard?


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 20, 2012)

Our KJN also holds rank from both the Moo Duk Kwan and the Kukkiwon. We primarily use the Palgwe forms and most of our dan holders have their rank through the Moo Duk Kwan. There are at least two of us who also practice the Taegeuks (actually, we both also practice the Chang Hon forms as well) and have rank through the Kukkiwon. Does your KJN offer KKW certification to those who prefer it?

The idea that because your KJN holds Kukkiwon rank automatically means you should too assumes that KKW rank is somehow preferable to MDK. That is a false assumption. If you're happy with your training and affiliations, then you're with the right org.

Incidentially, I love the look of your cert. The KKW certs look like the awards kids get from Little League or for perfect attendance at school.


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## SahBumNimRush (Jan 20, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> Does your KJN offer KKW certification to those who prefer it?



Honestly, I don't know.  No one, to my knowledge is KKW certified under our KJN, but I honestly don't think anyone has ever asked for it.


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## puunui (Jan 20, 2012)

SahBumNimRush said:


> The question arose that since my KJN is Kukkiwon certified, shouldn't I be?  My response is that while my KJN is Kukkiwon certified, we do not practice KKW curriculum, so I'm not sure how me being KKW certified is relevant or important.  I would welcome comments on those who may have been in a situation like this, and what they're feelings on the matter are.




If you look at the history of taekwondo, you will see that the efforts were all focused on unification on three main areas: name of the art, certification and technical standards. And the unification efforts were handled in that order, in Korea. In the 1960's, you saw the name chosen was taesoodo. that is why the kwan jang got so upset when General Choi changed it to taekwondo -- because the name had been already selected years before and they were now working on certification and technical standards. 

During the 1970's, the certification issue was handled with the building and creation of the kukkiwon. Back in the 1970's, kukkiwon certification was liberally and freely given out to everyone, irregardless of the technical standards which they followed. This is no different when we grandfather in a house or building that is not up to current building codes. 

The technical unification did not take place until the late 80's or even the 90's in Korea, which is why there are so much varied standards internationally -- most early international instructors moved from korea in the 60's and 70's, before the technical unification was a reality. 

Now outside of Korea, we can learn from and utilize the developmental model utilized by the pioneers to achieve the same thing, in the same order. We already agree on the name taekwondo. that step has been settled. 

It is my opinion that access to kukkiwon certification is a RIGHT of all taekwondoin -- everyone is entitled to it, no matter what their political affiliation or the technical guidelines that they follow. This is the viewpoint of the pioneers and that is what they sacrificed their kwan for. 

We operated under this policy here in hawaii back in the early 90s when our state association was being revived. Back then, the only person who was issuing kukkiwon certification was me, the reason being that the seniors had retired and the juniors did not have kukkiwon certification and they could not give out what they themselves did not have. Many came from itf backgrounds and did not practice the kukkiwon poomsae. But they were sincere and wanted kukkiwon certification. Some, but not all, wanted to also learn the kukkiwon curriculum. Many were jeolous and resentful when they saw my certificates hanging on the wall with numbers on them that they could not even imagine obtaining even if they studied their whole lives. 

I could have been a jerk about it and made them test using the kukkiwon curriculum as the basis of their promotion. Or kept kukkiwon certification to myself and not promoted anyone. But, I did not do that. Instead, I liberally gave everyone the opportunity to obtain kukkiwon certification, without restriction. I focused on the instructors and got them itf assimilation dan, started some at Kukkiwon 1st Dan, and so forth. My argument was if I could obtain such certification, being nothing particularly special or outstanding, then they should believe that they could too. 

Today, the overwhelming majority of instructors give out kukkiwon certification to their students, and teach the kukkiwon curriculum, to varying degrees of compliance to the standards. Some also give their own dojang certificate, but first and foremost we give out primarily kukkiwon certification. 

And everyone is happy because they now feel a part of a global phenomenon, an accepted and respected member in the kukki taekwondo family.


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## puunui (Jan 20, 2012)

SahBumNimRush said:


> GM Kang has a certificates through Taekwondo Moo Duk Kwan and Kukkiwon.  I really don't know if the certificates that he issues have any direct association with any organization back in Korea, or if they are strictly "in house certificates."




Those are strictly in house certificates. It has always been my policy, as well as the policy of my taekwondo teachers, that you give the certification that you yourself receive.


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## Kong Soo Do (Jan 20, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> KKW people automatically assume everyone either is or wants to be KKW certified too.
> 
> as for your case, if you dont practice the KKW material no you should not be KKW certified.



To be fair, this only applies to a percentage.  My instructor and several KKW certified masters that I know do not advocate joining the KKW.  Some do, some don't.  It is a personal choice.  I agree that if one desires to join the KKW, they should know the material.  If they don't and/or what they are doing now fulfills their needs, there is no need to join the KKW or any other organization.


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## puunui (Jan 20, 2012)

Gemini said:


> But if you're going to have a certification from a governing body, it seems you should know and practice the curriculum that is the standard for that governing body. Isn't that the whole point of any governing body having a standard?




I am not against standardization. However, when you really think about it, everyone is in a state of non-compliance. I don't care who you are. Some more than others, others less so. Those who are in a higher state of compliance are obligated to help and assist those who are less traveled down the road, not simply sit in judgment and criticize. Taekwondo is unique in the sense that it was an art created not by a single person, but rather was a group effort, all putting aside their differences to help each other prosper and grow. That to me is the true spirit of taekwondo, and that is the philosophy from which I operate from.


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## dortiz (Jan 20, 2012)

"Those are strictly in house certificates. It has always been my policy, as well as the policy of my taekwondo teachers, that you give the certification that you yourself receive. "

Wow!  Absoultely the best way to say how it should be.


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## Twin Fist (Jan 20, 2012)

i have been told literally told that my school cert? means nothing because it isnt KKW

I have been told that i am robbing my students of the "benefits" of kkw certification

so yeah, there are people that think exactly like i said


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## puunui (Jan 20, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> The idea that because your KJN holds Kukkiwon rank automatically means you should too assumes that KKW rank is somehow preferable to MDK. That is a false assumption.




That is not my assumption at all. If you wish to receive moo duk kwan certification then by all means go get that. But first and foremost, all taekwondoin are entitled to kukkiwon certification, in addition to whatever other certification your instructor is giving out. I myself still receive Chung Do Kwan certification, but that is more of an afterthought. The main certification is the kukkiwon certification.


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## puunui (Jan 20, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> i have been told literally told that my school cert? means nothing because it isnt KKW
> 
> I have been told that i am robbing my students of the "benefits" of kkw certification
> 
> so yeah, there are people that think exactly like i said




In my opinion, you should be proud of the certificates given to you by your teacher. Nothing wrong with that. I disagree that your certificates mean "nothing". Obviously, they mean something to you, so already the "nothing" statement is incorrect. But I also believe that there is no conflict with also obtaining kukkiwon certification for yourself and for your students. Perhaps you may not be interested in competition, but maybe one of your students is, and they should have the option and freedom to pursue that, if they so choose. I have different interests and focuses than my father, but my father never discourages me and certainly would not hamper my ability to pursue something if I wanted to. I am sure you do the same for your own children.


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## Twin Fist (Jan 20, 2012)

i dont do the kkw forms, so i cant be kkw certified even if i wanted to which i do not since i place NO value on it at all.


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## puunui (Jan 20, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> i dont do the kkw forms, so i cant be kkw certified even if i wanted to which i do not since i place NO value on it at all.



Yes you can obtain kukkiwon certification, even if you do not do the kukkiwon poomsae. Please read my earlier posts above. But if you do not want kukkiwon certification, no problem. No one is forcing you and no one will force you. That is not what taekwondo or the martial arts is about.


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## puunui (Jan 20, 2012)

dortiz said:


> "Those are strictly in house certificates. It has always been my policy, as well as the policy of my taekwondo teachers, that you give the certification that you yourself receive. "
> 
> Wow!  Absoultely the best way to say how it should be.



And when I promote someone to Kukkiwon dan, I have them agree that they in turn will issue Kukkiwon certification to their students. If they are not going to give it out, then there really is no need for them to get it themselves.


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## puunui (Jan 20, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> Incidentially, I love the look of your cert. The KKW certs look like the awards kids get from Little League or for perfect attendance at school.




There will be changes at the Kukkiwon, like at USAT and WTF occurring over the next eighteen months or so, and changing the Kukkiwon certificate design just might be one of those changes.


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## Twin Fist (Jan 20, 2012)

food for thought


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## SahBumNimRush (Jan 20, 2012)

Puunui,

  Thank you for your input, it has been enlightening.  Particularly, putting the timeline of TKD into perspective.  So many of the seniors in the U.S. came to this country in the 60's and 70's, prior to KKW's existence and prior to the "technical unification."  I can see how the goal of spreading TKD globally also created a very real challenge of technical unification.  

  I remember hearing comments about how all of the "good TKD instructors" had left Korea to teach globally; putting TKD's best foot forward so to speak in the early days.  

  I could see how this *could* create some turmoil if those "less technically skilled" were taking political TKD positions in Korea while those with more talent were spread throughout the world globalizing TKD.  (this is only conjecture, I really don't know this to be the case)


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 20, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> The idea that because your KJN holds Kukkiwon rank automatically means you should too assumes that KKW rank is somehow preferable to MDK. That is a false assumption. If you're happy with your training and affiliations, then you're with the right org.





puunui said:


> That is not my assumption at all.



I never said it was. Never the less, the assumption certainly exists on the part of many.



puunui said:


> If you wish to receive moo duk kwan certification then by all means go get that. But first and foremost, all taekwondoin are entitled to kukkiwon certification, in addition to whatever other certification your instructor is giving out. I myself still receive Chung Do Kwan certification, but that is more of an afterthought. The main certification is the kukkiwon certification.



If your attitude is that everybody SHOULD get KKW certification, then you prove my statement true. If your attitude is that people SHOULD BE ABLE to get KKW certification IF THEY WANT IT then my statement doesn't apply to you. Either way, we don't disagree.

Just as an aside, I checked and we do have a few other KKW certified BB's. A couple of them are learning the Taegeuks now, since they are away at school and that is what is practiced at their university-based clubs, but did not learn them prior to their KKW certification. They learned the Palgwe forms as taught by our KJN, plus Koryo for their 1st Dan. We do use the KKW Yudanja forms, although we're "out of compliance" in the sense that Koryo is required for 1st dan candidates, rather than 2nd.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 20, 2012)

puunui said:


> I am not against standardization. However, when you really think about it, everyone is in a state of non-compliance. I don't care who you are. Some more than others, others less so. Those who are in a higher state of compliance are obligated to help and assist those who are less traveled down the road,




If you were to insert "if that is what they want" at this point, we'd be in 100% agreement on this issue. Some who are "out of compliance" are so because they WANT it that way. And that's fine.



puunui said:


> not simply sit in judgment and criticize. Taekwondo is unique in the sense that it was an art created not by a single person, but rather was a group effort, all putting aside their differences to help each other prosper and grow. That to me is the true spirit of taekwondo, and that is the philosophy from which I operate from.


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## puunui (Jan 20, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> If you were to insert "if that is what they want" at this point, we'd be in 100% agreement on this issue. Some who are "out of compliance" are so because they WANT it that way. And that's fine.



I think it is a waste of time to attempt to force people to do something they do not want to do. So freedom of choice is always in there.


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## Gemini (Jan 20, 2012)

puunui said:


> I am not against standardization. However, when you really think about it, everyone is in a state of non-compliance. I don't care who you are. Some more than others, others less so. Those who are in a higher state of compliance are obligated to help and assist those who are less traveled down the road, not simply sit in judgment and criticize. Taekwondo is unique in the sense that it was an art created not by a single person, but rather was a group effort, all putting aside their differences to help each other prosper and grow. That to me is the true spirit of taekwondo, and that is the philosophy from which I operate from.



"Everyone is in a state of non-compliance". Who can be in compliance if no standardization is maintained? I do agree with your "grandfathered in" analogy but that has it's limitations. I also agree that the art was created by a group individual kwans. Just because the Master was initially awarded a Kukkiwon certification doesn't justify him handing them down past himself without incorporating the Kukkiwon's training curriculum. I know several (4) Tang Soo Do masters that in the late 80's were awarded Kukkiwon certification simply for crossing over because the Kukkiwon was desperately short of Masters. I also know that each one of those masters learned and incorporated the Kukkiwon curriculum in their training of Taekwondo. If they were to still teach Tang soo do, that's fine, but the students didn't recieve a Kukkiwon certificate at black belt, nor should they. If you want to train under any school's curriculum, do it, but don't call it Kukkiwon. IMO the Kukkiwon shoots itself in the foot by handing out certifications like so many business cards. Why not just sell them in black belt magazine if no standardization will ever be required. That said, I have to ad that the respect I have for the original poster and other who post here is based on their knowledge and input, not their certification.     



Twin Fist said:


> so yeah, there are people that think exactly like i said


There are some yes, but this statement is very different from this statement





Twin Fist said:


> KKW people automatically assume everyone either is or wants to be KKW certified too.


 at least to me.


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## puunui (Jan 20, 2012)

SahBumNimRush said:


> I remember hearing comments about how all of the "good TKD instructors" had left Korea to teach globally; putting TKD's best foot forward so to speak in the early days.  I could see how this *could* create some turmoil if those "less technically skilled" were taking political TKD positions in Korea while those with more talent were spread throughout the world globalizing TKD.  (this is only conjecture, I really don't know this to be the case)




I do understand the idea that good taekwondo instructors left Korea to teach in other countries. However, I think it is a mistake to think that only those "less technically skilled" remained in Korea. As for those taking political positions, up until recently, it was the kwan jang or other pioneers who assumed those roles, and I would never say that they were "less technically skilled" than those who left Korea to teach. That is not a good way to think about the pioneers who created Taekwondo especially those who stayed in Korea when they obviously had the opportunity to leave if they wanted to.


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## mastercole (Jan 20, 2012)

SahBumNimRush said:


> Puunui,
> 
> Thank you for your input, it has been enlightening.  Particularly, putting the timeline of TKD into perspective.  So many of the seniors in the U.S. came to this country in the 60's and 70's, prior to KKW's existence and prior to the "technical unification."  I can see how the goal of spreading TKD globally also created a very real challenge of technical unification.
> 
> ...



That is the first time I ever heard of that. I'm not saying you are claiming it as true, but who ever is claiming that is very wrong. Actually, it's the other way around.


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## puunui (Jan 20, 2012)

Gemini said:


> Just because the Master was initially awarded a Kukkiwon certification doesn't justify him handing them down past himself without incorporating the Kukkiwon's training curriculum.



I think that is a good goal to shoot for. I disagree that we are at that stage yet. 




Gemini said:


> I know several (4) Tang Soo Do masters that in the late 80's were awarded Kukkiwon certification simply for crossing over because the Kukkiwon was desperately short of Masters.



By the late 1980's there were I believe over 25,000 Kukkiwon certified instructors, 1500 in the USA alone. They Kukkiwon was not "desperately short of Masters".




Gemini said:


> If they were to still teach Tang soo do, that's fine, but the students didn't recieve a Kukkiwon certificate at black belt, nor should they. If you want to train under any school's curriculum, do it, but don't call it Kukkiwon.



If I had your attitude, Hawaii would still be in the dark ages. 




Gemini said:


> IMO the Kukkiwon shoots itself in the foot by handing out certifications like so many business cards. Why not just sell them in black belt magazine if no standardization will ever be required.



I don't believe that one shoots them self in the foot when showing patience, understanding or compassion towards other taekwondoin and attempts to make them feel welcomed and included. But if you don't feel that way, then by all means, promote only those who, in your judgment, deserve to be promoted according to whatever standards you feel are appropriate. If you feel that you are up to standard, then do your part in passing those standards on to others. 

mastercole and I were the first ones to speak about the kukkiwon standards, including short narrow standards. People came out of the woodwork to attack us about that. Today, people are in a better frame of mind to accept the kukkiwon standards, and now more and more dojang are adopting those. Personally, I'd love for everyone to be at stage three, but the fact of the matter is that we are still at stage two, and most probably will be for a while longer.


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## mastercole (Jan 20, 2012)

I understand most people points of view on this subject and I know they have their reasons for thinking like they do. They have their point of view, and I have mine, and that is OK.

I used to be liberal with issuing Kukkiwon Dan certificates. Now I rarely assist anyone outside of my school with it. Experience has shown if they did not get it, there is probably a good reason and I am not going to get involved. If I did decide to assist someone, they would have be a dedicated Kukkiwon Taekwondoin making a real effort at following the Kukkiwon method and have what I consider a correct attitude. But I don't have relationships with non-Kukkiwon Taekwondoin, nor would I ever want to develop such a relationship, so I do't think the issue will come up. Of course no one has to ask my help and get a no answer. They have always been free to go somewhere else and I would prefer it that way. Again, nothing wrong with people helping others get it, it's just not for me.


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## mastercole (Jan 20, 2012)

>>>>Originally Posted by *Gemini* 

_I know several (4) Tang Soo Do masters that in the late 80's were awarded Kukkiwon certification simply for crossing over because the Kukkiwon was desperately short of Masters.<<<


That is not true, who told you that?_


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## Gemini (Jan 20, 2012)

puunui said:


> By the late 1980's there were I believe over 25,000 Kukkiwon certified instructors, 1500 in the USA alone. They Kukkiwon was not "desperately short of Masters".


 It was their words, not mine, I wasn't there, but it was a pretty common theme. Why would they lie? Because I heard the same story from 4 different sources, I choose to believe them. More likely, knowledgeable as you are, there may be something you didn't know. Regardless, I think you're focusing on the wrong part of this comment. The poiint was, they chose to incorporate the name and the curriculum that defines what it is, not just the name. 




puunui said:


> If I had your attitude, Hawaii would still be in the dark ages.


Many people are of the same opinion about this. I'm hardly unique. Are we then in the dark ages? Maybe the dark ages had some merit. 



puunui said:


> I don't believe that one shoots them self in the foot when showing patience, understanding or compassion towards other taekwondoin and attempts to make them feel welcomed and included. But if you don't feel that way, then by all means, promote only those who, in your judgment, deserve to be promoted according to whatever standards you feel are appropriate. If you feel that you are up to standard, then do your part in passing those standards on to others.


This has nothing to do with patience or compassion. I feel those who work hard to learn and grow the Kukkiwon curriculum should be promoted within the Kukkiwon. I also feel that if they choose to learn a different curriculum than they should promote under THAT curriculum. I'm a little confused about your comments regarding warmth and compassion. You make it sound as if the sun rises and sets on the Kukkiwon and all others are something less. I couldn't disagree more. Maybe I just misunderstand your thoughts. It seems to me you vocolize unification, but don't require any standards for unification to take place.  



puunui said:


> Today, people are in a better frame of mind to accept the kukkiwon standards, and now more and more dojang are adopting those.


 If that's true, we have no disagreement.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 20, 2012)

I have never understood the concept that because someone way back got kkw certification they should get the same kkw certification for their students even if its not what they teach. I mean, if I left school and did a plumbing apprenticeship and became a qualified plumber and after a few years in the work force realised it wasnt the job for me so I went and changed jobs and did an electrical apprenticeship. Years and years later I am running my electrical business and put on an apprentice, at the completion of his apprenticeship should I certify him as a qualified plumber as well as an electrician just because I have that certification, even though he knows nothing about plumbing? Of course not. Just because once upon a time years ago your GM got kukkiwon certification doesnt mean he should pass it on to his students if its not what he teaches. If he teaches the kukkiwon curriculum then most certainly yes, he should. I think it all comes down to what they teach. I dont want a certification in something I dont know.


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## puunui (Jan 20, 2012)

Gemini said:


> It was their words, not mine, I wasn't there, but it was a pretty common theme. Why would they lie? Because I heard the same story from 4 different sources, I choose to believe them. More likely, knowledgeable as you are, there may be something you didn't know.



Numbers don't lie, there was no shortage of instructors by the late 80's, but feel free to believe who you want. 




Gemini said:


> Regardless, I think you're focusing on the wrong part of this comment. The poiint was, they chose to incorporate the name and the curriculum that defines what it is, not just the name.



No problem. We did the same thing in Hawaii in the 90s. Please read my post about it earlier in this thread.




Gemini said:


> Many people are of the same opinion about this. I'm hardly unique. Are we then in the dark ages? Maybe the dark ages had some merit.



I understand many people think like you do. But if I had done what you would have wanted me to do, then Hawaii taekwondo would not be where it is presently, which is a leading state, in sparring and now in poomsae as well. There are about 15-20 high achiever types here, all of whom I believe have the potential to be Kukkiwon 9th Dan. If I have my way, they will all make it to that level. 




Gemini said:


> This has nothing to do with patience or compassion. I feel those who work hard to learn and grow the Kukkiwon curriculum should be promoted within the Kukkiwon. I also feel that if they choose to learn a different curriculum than they should promote under THAT curriculum. I'm a little confused about your comments regarding warmth and compassion. You make it sound as if the sun rises and sets on the Kukkiwon and all others are something less. I couldn't disagree more. Maybe I just misunderstand your thoughts. It seems to me you vocolize unification, but don't require any standards for unification to take place.



Try and read all of my posts in this thread. I pretty much lay out what my position is, and why.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 20, 2012)

mastercole said:


> I understand most people points of view on this subject and I know they have their reasons for thinking like they do. They have their point of view, and I have mine, and that is OK.
> 
> I used to be liberal with issuing Kukkiwon Dan certificates. Now I rarely assist anyone outside of my school with it. Experience has shown if they did not get it, there is probably a good reason and I am not going to get involved. If I did decide to assist someone, they would have be a dedicated Kukkiwon Taekwondoin making a real effort at following the Kukkiwon method and have what I consider a correct attitude. But I don't have relationships with non-Kukkiwon Taekwondoin, nor would I ever want to develop such a relationship, so I do't think the issue will come up. Of course no one has to ask my help and get a no answer. They have always been free to go somewhere else and I would prefer it that way. Again, nothing wrong with people helping others get it, it's just not for me.


Very good post. If I was a kukkiwon instructor (which Im obviously not) I would not be helping non kukkiwon people get kukkiwon certs. I would only want to see dedicated kkw tkdoin getting them, people dedicated to the cause. I wouldnt want to see people getting around with kukkiwon certification who are not up to speed with the kukkiwon curriculum and the kukkiwon way of doing things. Its the same reason that when we get a kukkiwon black belt join our club they start at white belt, not because they are any less skilled in tkd than we are, but because they are a black belt in a different system.


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## puunui (Jan 20, 2012)

mastercole said:


> I understand most people points of view on this subject and I know they have their reasons for thinking like they do. They have their point of view, and I have mine, and that is OK.
> 
> I used to be liberal with issuing Kukkiwon Dan certificates. Now I rarely assist anyone outside of my school with it. Experience has shown if they did not get it, there is probably a good reason and I am not going to get involved. If I did decide to assist someone, they would have be a dedicated Kukkiwon Taekwondoin making a real effort at following the Kukkiwon method and have what I consider a correct attitude. But I don't have relationships with non-Kukkiwon Taekwondoin, nor would I ever want to develop such a relationship, so I do't think the issue will come up. Of course no one has to ask my help and get a no answer. They have always been free to go somewhere else and I would prefer it that way. Again, nothing wrong with people helping others get it, it's just not for me.



We talked about this before. I understand how you feel. For me personally, I have a strong desire to truly understand taekwondo from the pioneer's perspective, which requires to a certain degree, doing what they did. The prime difference is that the pioneers had korean cultural factors working in their favor, and we have to deal with american perspectives and the issues that come forth with that, if you know what I mean.


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## mastercole (Jan 20, 2012)

Gemini said:


> Originally Posted by *puunui*
> 
> By the late 1980's there were I believe over 25,000 Kukkiwon certified instructors, 1500 in the USA alone. They Kukkiwon was not "desperately short of Masters".
> 
> ...



Whoever it is that you choose to believe, the facts show that they were wrong. The Kukkiwon was never "short" of masters (I assume you mean instructors).  That would be a false rumor circulated among a like minded group with an agenda.


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## mastercole (Jan 20, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Very good post. If I was a kukkiwon instructor (which Im obviously not) I would not be helping non kukkiwon people get kukkiwon certs. I would only want to see dedicated kkw tkdoin getting them, people dedicated to the cause. I wouldnt want to see people getting around with kukkiwon certification who are not up to speed with the kukkiwon curriculum and the kukkiwon way of doing things. Its the same reason that when we get a kukkiwon black belt join our club they start at white belt, not because they are any less skilled in tkd than we are, but because they are a black belt in a different system.



People might read me wrong on my statement. "I" am not the right person to get involved in the process of attempting to bring people who do some other spin off of Taekwondo into the Kukkiwon.  I don't disagree with it and I don't disagree with others who do it.  I know why they do it and it is for a greater cause. 

I just have no patience in dealing with them, unless of course they are on fire to learn the Kukkiwon method, then, I might consider it.


----------



## mastercole (Jan 20, 2012)

puunui said:


> We talked about this before. I understand how you feel. For me personally, I have a strong desire to truly understand taekwondo from the pioneer's perspective, which requires to a certain degree, doing what they did. The prime difference is that the pioneers had korean cultural factors working in their favor, and we have to deal with american perspectives and the issues that come forth with that, if you know what I mean.



Yes we did, and I certainly understand your view, and I agree with it, 100%.  I also think in these matters you have greater patience that I do, and in these ways you are more flexible as well.  That is why it's an area I should stay out of


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## puunui (Jan 20, 2012)

mastercole said:


> I also think in these matters you have greater patience that I do, and in these ways you are more flexible as well.  That is why it's an area I should stay out of




I wasn't the easiest student for some, if not all of my teachers, who were VERY patient with me. So I feel that I owe it to them to pass on the patience, understanding and goodwill that was shown to me, in the hopes that the pioneers' thoughts, feelings and policies carry over, for at least one more generation.


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## Gemini (Jan 20, 2012)

mastercole said:


> Whoever it is that you choose to believe, the facts show that they were wrong. The Kukkiwon was never "short" of masters (I assume you mean instructors).  That would be a false rumor circulated among a like minded group with an agenda.


 As I've stated, there were several including the Master, not instructor, who issued me my 1 Dan belt. He was a 6th Dan Tang Soo Do Master who made a cross over to 6th Dan Kukkiwon. It doesn't strike as something someone would brag about or mention if it wasn't the truth. So yes, I choose to believe him and the others who shared similar stories. If you don't I'm okay with that. What I won't do is presume to tell anyone their past.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 20, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> i dont do the kkw forms, so i cant be kkw certified even if i wanted to which i do not since i place NO value on it at all.


I too, was under this impression but have since been told 'it doesnt matter' that I dont know any of the curriculum. I think the policy is just sign up anyone to the kukkiwon and worry about the fact they have no idea about the curriculum later. I constantly hear about the advantages of the kukkiwon being that its standardised, yet you make the point that you cant be kukkiwon because you dont know their forms, and then the official member of the 'kukkiwon sign up commitee' jumps on and says you can join despite not knowing their curriculum. Standards? what standards? Ive made several points regarding this (note the plumber analogy), but these points are ignored and brushed over as if they were never posted because it proves just how ridiculous some of the 'theories' actually are. The usual suspects on here contantly tell me my GM should be handing out kukkiwon certs despite the fact we dont do the kukkiwon curriculum. Just sign us up and sweep the fact we dont know any kukkiwon stuff under the carpet it seems. Although, we have 4000 students and if they were all paying money to the kukkiwon for our certificates I could start to see why it is important to them for us to join.  $$$$$


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## mastercole (Jan 20, 2012)

Gemini said:


> As I've stated, there were several including the Master, not instructor, who issued me my 1 Dan belt. He was a 6th Dan Tang Soo Do Master who made a cross over to 6th Dan Kukkiwon. It doesn't strike as something someone would brag about or mention if it wasn't the truth. So yes, I choose to believe him and the others who shared similar stories. If you don't I'm okay with that. What I won't do is presume to tell anyone their past.



Given the actual facts, I choose not to believe him. But I'm OK with that too.


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## mastercole (Jan 20, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I too, was under this impression but have since been told 'it doesnt matter' that I dont know any of the curriculum. I think the policy is just sign up anyone to the kukkiwon and worry about the fact they have no idea about the curriculum later. I constantly hear about the advantages of the kukkiwon being that its standardised, yet you make the point that you cant be kukkiwon because you dont know their forms, and then the official member of the 'kukkiwon sign up commitee' jumps on and says you can join despite not knowing their curriculum. Standards? what standards? Ive made several points regarding this (note the plumber analogy), but these points are ignored and brushed over as if they were never posted because it proves just how ridiculous some of the 'theories' actually are. The usual suspects on here contantly tell me my GM should be handing out kukkiwon certs despite the fact we dont do the kukkiwon curriculum. Just sign us up and sweep the fact we dont know any kukkiwon stuff under the carpet it seems. Although, we have 4000 students and if they were all paying money to the kukkiwon for our certificates I could start to see why it is important to them for us to join.  $$$$$



I never said he should.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 20, 2012)

mastercole said:


> I never said he should.


My apologies mastercole, my post was in no way aimed at you.


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## puunui (Jan 20, 2012)

mastercole said:


> Yes we did, and I certainly understand your view, and I agree with it, 100%.  I also think in these matters you have greater patience that I do, and in these ways you are more flexible as well.  That is why it's an area I should stay out of




When it comes to Kukkiwon certification, there are all kinds of people, especially those who do not have kukkiwon certification. At the extreme end of the spectrum, there are those who do not have it, and say they do not want it, and then proceed to criticize the kukkiwon and others regarding kukkiwon certification. For those, we can't do much for, except let them continue to howl at the moon. 

I am more interested in speaking with and helping those who desire kukkiwon certification, but find that they are unable to obtain it. that is the group we are trying to reach. I've done over 1000 kukkiwon poom and dan certifications in my life, less nowdays because people are reaching instructor level ranks and can process on their own now. We want people to be independent and free, which is what kukkiwon certification does for them. They are happy when they can promote their own students through an organization that will not disappear when their instructor passes away or retires and they can also continue to get promoted themselves through that same organization.


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## Kong Soo Do (Jan 21, 2012)

Okay, I've got to chime in here as there are some things that don't add up.  No offense intended to any party, but things need to be examined in light of what the OP has asked, and what has been offered thus far in this thread.

Would it be of value for Master Rush, or anyone that doesn't have a KKW certification, to obtain one?  As many have pointed out so far, they don't follow (or wish to follow) the KKW curriculum.  What they are doing has met their needs.  And apparently, what they/we have done exceeds the standards of the KKW certification (at least in most cases).  The reason is simply that there are often NO standards to obtain KKW certification.



			
				puunui said:
			
		

> I've done over 1000 kukkiwon poom and dan certifications in my life,





			
				puunui said:
			
		

> It  is my opinion that access to kukkiwon certification is a RIGHT of all  taekwondoin -- everyone is entitled to it, no matter what their  political affiliation *or the technical guidelines that they follow.*





			
				puunui said:
			
		

> We  operated under this policy here in hawaii back in the early 90s when  our state association was being revived. Back then, the only person who  was issuing kukkiwon certification was me, the reason being that the  seniors had retired and the juniors did not have kukkiwon certification  and they could not give out what they themselves did not have. Many came  from itf backgrounds and did not practice the kukkiwon poomsae. But  they were sincere and wanted kukkiwon certification. *Some, but not all, wanted to also learn the kukkiwon curriculum.*





			
				puunui said:
			
		

> But, I did not do that. *Instead, I liberally gave everyone the opportunity to obtain kukkiwon certification, without restriction.*



So no standards or technical guidelines were needed to obtain a KKW certification.  Indeed, there couldn't have been, nor could you have actually tested anyone before giving them KKW certification (if they didn't know the KKW curriculum, no test could be given using the KKW curriculum, therefore in many/most cases you would be unaware of the actual skill level or proficiency level of the individual since you can't test them.)  And not everyone was even interested in learning the KKW curriculum that obtained KKW certification through which begs the question; why did they bother to join an organization they had no intention of learning the curriculum?  

So through you, and instructors of the same mind set as you, untold numbers of individuals are now in the KKW, yet don't know what/how the KKW teaches nor do they care.  Which in essence means there are untold scores of people in the KKW that are there just for the wall candy.  

At least the KKW special testing had some sort of standard for obtaining a KKW certification, lax though it may be.  Well, at least for 4th Dan and above.  One did not even have to show up for the test to obtain up to a 3rd Dan.  But 4th required two KKW forms.  I believe one of your choice and one of theirs.  So more than one needed to be known.  Yet, apparently, according to your post(s), you (and other instructors) didn't require any of that.  Just get them in as fast and as far as possible regardless of what they knew or didn't know about KKW TKD.

Again, not meaning to be offensive, but the direct question just screams, "*how is this not just another rank mill*"?  Get them in fast and far regardless of what they know, or don't know and as long as the check clears their gold.  Or perhaps a goldmine for the KKW?



			
				puunui said:
			
		

> And  when I promote someone to Kukkiwon dan, I have them agree that they in  turn will issue Kukkiwon certification to their students. If they are  not going to give it out, then there really is no need for them to get  it themselves.



So perhaps there was a standard after all?  Not a standard of their skill level and knowledge base (which I've always assumed was a pretty good beginning for testing someone and giving them rank), but rather a standard of whether or not they were going to keep the gravy train rolling full speed into the KKW bank account.

One cannot help but see how many individuals feel about the KKW and the certification they offer;



			
				ralphmcpherson said:
			
		

> I too, was under this impression but have since been told 'it doesnt  matter' that I dont know any of the curriculum. *I think the policy is  just sign up anyone to the kukkiwon and worry about the fact they have  no idea about the curriculum later.* I constantly hear about the  advantages of the kukkiwon being that its standardised, yet you make the  point that you cant be kukkiwon because you dont know their forms, and  then *the official member of the 'kukkiwon sign up commitee'* jumps on and  says you can join despite not knowing their curriculum. Standards? what  standards? Ive made several points regarding this (note the plumber  analogy), but these points are ignored and brushed over as if they were  never posted because it proves just how ridiculous some of the  'theories' actually are. The usual suspects on here contantly tell me my  GM should be handing out kukkiwon certs despite the fact we dont do the  kukkiwon curriculum. Just sign us up and sweep the fact we dont know  any kukkiwon stuff under the carpet it seems. *Although, we have 4000  students and if they were all paying money to the kukkiwon for our  certificates I could start to see why it is important to them for us to  join*.  $$$$$



And to once again be clear, I'm not jumping on Glenn personally.  He has a right to feel as he does.  I guess it is obvious that he can give KKW certification to anyone he pleases.  I'm examining his words only and not judging him.  I would wonder though about the thought process of *quantity rather than quality*?  I suppose the question becomes a simple one for Master Rush, and others viewing this thread that aren't KKW certified;  Do you want to belong to an organization that has a myriad of instructors that pass out rank certifications to anyone/everyone regardless of the level of their skill or knowledge of the organizations curriculum?  Do you want to belong to an organization that has little or no standardization for obtaining rank certification within their organization?  Beyond just agreeing to continue to get others into the organization.  It almost sounds like a quota system exists within the KKW*?*


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## RobinTKD (Jan 21, 2012)

puunui said:


> I do not believe it is the proper time to get into specifics about that sort of thing. I would simply let more time pass. I will say that more and more ITF and ATA practitioners are assimilating into kukki taekwondo. Before the new Kukkiwon president took office, I and others were working on a deal to convert 6000 former ATA black belts in several countries to kukkiwon certification. That is the kind of activity I like to be involved in, not arguing about whether or not someone deserves a kukkiwon 1st dan if they don't know taeguek 1 jang. Imagine how many lives are affected if we make something like that happen.



I was just wondering Glenn, you posted this in the 'curious' thread but I think it has more relevance here, you are helping ITF practitioners to gain Kukkiwon certification? Does this mean that they must start practising the Kukkiwon curriculum, ie taegueks over chan hong forms? And that they should start competing in WTF organised events in place of ITF? It's just that i saw you and mastercole say that the Kukkiwon has no standardization which made me wonder why there isn't more ITF practitioners with Kukkiwon certification. I just wanted to know the particulars.


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## Gorilla (Jan 21, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Very good post. If I was a kukkiwon instructor (which Im obviously not) I would not be helping non kukkiwon people get kukkiwon certs. I would only want to see dedicated kkw tkdoin getting them, people dedicated to the cause. I wouldnt want to see people getting around with kukkiwon certification who are not up to speed with the kukkiwon curriculum and the kukkiwon way of doing things. Its the same reason that when we get a kukkiwon black belt join our club they start at white belt, not because they are any less skilled in tkd than we are, but because they are a black belt in a different system.



How long do they stay a white belt?  If they lack skill I understand it.  If they meet the standard of a black belt form a skill perspective I would bet that they would move up pretty fast.


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## SahBumNimRush (Jan 21, 2012)

This has  been a very interesting thread of discussion, and I greatly appreciate all who have posted.  The inclusiveness that Glenn seems to be supporting for the KKW reminds me of the 1st dan promotion that Won Sik Kang and Kyong Myong Lee wrote about in A Modern History of Taekwondo.  Because all of the kwans practiced different forms and had differences in technique, the examinees were allowed to choose from certain forms for each Dan level.  

*If* the KKW is looking for unification and inclusiveness, why not maintain individual styles' techniques and form sets?  Is this the direction the KKW is moving towards?  If so, then I can understand the so-to-speak "lack of technical standard."


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## Twin Fist (Jan 21, 2012)

but isnt the whole point of the KKW so that if any KKW dan holder goes to a new school, he KNOWS the school teaches what he knows and makes sure the dan holder knows what the school does?

one of the big selling points i was told was that you can travel and know what you are walking into with any KKW school anywhere in the world.....


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 21, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Okay, I've got to chime in here as there are some things that don't add up.  No offense intended to any party, but things need to be examined in light of what the OP has asked, and what has been offered thus far in this thread.
> 
> Would it be of value for Master Rush, or anyone that doesn't have a KKW certification, to obtain one?  As many have pointed out so far, they don't follow (or wish to follow) the KKW curriculum.  What they are doing has met their needs.  And apparently, what they/we have done exceeds the standards of the KKW certification (at least in most cases).  The reason is simply that there are often NO standards to obtain KKW certification.
> 
> ...


good post, it raises the same questions that Ive been wondering about. For me personally standardisation is very important in any large organisation, not just in martial arts but all walks of life. I run a large business (not martial arts related) and I attribute much of our success to standardisatiion which becomes increasingly important as a business/org grows. I have two good friends who are kukkiwon black belts. One trains at a very good school, he is a great martial artist and has very well rounded skillset. My other friend is at a mcdojo, they teach a very limited curriculum and just hand out belts like candy with very poor instruction. How can both these clubs be kukkiwon? I would have thought the one big advantage of an organisation is that it provides consistency throughout their schools.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 21, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> How long do they stay a white belt?  If they lack skill I understand it.  If they meet the standard of a black belt form a skill perspective I would bet that they would move up pretty fast.


It depends  a lot on the individual. Usually it would take someone 12 to 18 months to learn the forms to a black belt standard and be proficient in the rest of our curriculum. Probably just as long as it would take me to become proficient in the kukkiwon's curriculum.


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## Kong Soo Do (Jan 21, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> but isnt the whole point of the KKW so that if any KKW dan holder goes to a new school, he KNOWS the school teaches what he knows and makes sure the dan holder knows what the school does?
> 
> one of the big selling points i was told was that you can travel and know what you are walking into with any KKW school anywhere in the world.....



This is what I've always been told as well.  It is among several reasons that the KKW masters that I know have distanced themselves from the KKW i.e. standards have gone to the wayside.


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## puunui (Jan 21, 2012)

RobinTKD said:


> you are helping ITF practitioners to gain Kukkiwon certification? Does this mean that they must start practising the Kukkiwon curriculum, ie taegueks over chan hong forms? And that they should start competing in WTF organised events in place of ITF?



Back in the 1970s and through the 1980s, the Kukkiwon had an ITF dan assimilation program, whereby the Kukkiwon would give corresponding Kukkiwon dan rank to ITF dan holders. Many ITF instructors got grandfathered in this way. There was a list published of those who participated, including practitioners such as GM CHO Hee Il, etc. Others went through the Oh Do Kwan, which I believe did the bulk of the transfers. Or maybe transfer is not the right word, since as Oh Do Kwan members, they never left in the first place. 

Of these Oh Do Kwan/ITF practitioners, some continued to practice the chang hon tul. Many or most eventually changed over to the Kukkiwon curriculum and participated in WTF events. I can tell you that of the ITF conversions I did here in Hawaii, I think all eventually made the transfer over, including a korean born senior I helped, who in turn helped his students. I will also say that the conversion process was not immediate in all cases, and some still practice itf forms on their own, or teach those itf forms at the higher dan levels.

Funny but true story. I was helping judge the forms competition at our state championships a while back and one of the competitors did an itf form. One of the judges, a newly minted first dan, got confused and asked me "what form is that?". I responded "an itf form", to which she responded "what is itf?". the funny part is that five years prior, her instructor was an ITF man teaching the itf forms only.





RobinTKD said:


> It's just that i saw you and mastercole say that the Kukkiwon has no standardization which made me wonder why there isn't more ITF practitioners with Kukkiwon certification. I just wanted to know the particulars.



that isn't what mastercole and I said. What I said was, the unification efforts of the pioneers went in three stages -- name, certification and technical standards. First stage was deciding on the name. Second stage was agreeing to a unified certification instead of kwan certification. Last stage is unification of technical standards. It took Korea, with all its motivated pioneers and leaders, forty five or more years to unify. It took twenty years to settle the name, thirty years to agree on kukkiwon certification, and forty five to finally get technical standards unified. Today, the instructors coming out of korea are all very much standardized in their name, certification and technical standards. 

In the US and in other countries, we are still at stage two, which is unification of certification through the Kukkiwon. At some point, we will be at stage three, and I believe these kukkiwon instructor courses as well as the WTF World Poomsae Championships are helping that process. But in the US, especially, there are those out there who desire kukkiwon certification, but cannot obtain it for whatever reason. Those are the people we are trying to help. 

Those who are already at stage three, in my opinion would better serve the efforts of the Kukkiwon by doing their part in getting others to stage three, instead of complaining. Anyone can complain, but it is a different thing to go out there and actually try to improve things. 

How can people help to raise the technical standards? Many ways. For one thing, they can continue to concentrate on their students. they can also go to courses and help people there who are having a hard time with a particular movement. they can take their technically accurate students to tournaments and raise the bar by winning medals at those tournaments. They can become poomsae referees and help to have referees' standards of accuracy raised. they can give seminars to other schools, for free, to help raise their standards. they can go train with their fellow instructors and show them the latest standards. there are many many things that people can do to help raise the standards in their neighborhood, their state, nationally and worldwide. 

All we ask is 1%. Do your part to better taekwondo by 1% and take care to not hurt taekwondo in anyway. There are enough people out there whose entire mission seems to be to try and hurt taekwondo, the kukkiwon, usat, wtf, the olympics as much as possible. Please do not be one of them. Instead, if you are a kukki taekwondoin, go out of your way to be the opposite of that. Use those people as an example of how not to be. 1%. If everyone did that, then we all will get there that much faster. 

Put another way, treat your fellow taekwondoin, all taekwondoin irregardless of affiliation or certification, like family members. Welcome them in. Make them feel at home. If they need help, help them. Treat them as you would your own father, mother, brother, sister, uncle, aunt, cousin, son, daughter, because that is what they are. Taekwondo is a family, and they are your family members.


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## puunui (Jan 21, 2012)

SahBumNimRush said:


> *If* the KKW is looking for unification and inclusiveness, why not maintain individual styles' techniques and form sets?  Is this the direction the KKW is moving towards?  If so, then I can understand the so-to-speak "lack of technical standard."



See my discussion about the three stages of unification. There is no "lack of technical standard".


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## puunui (Jan 21, 2012)

SahBumNimRush said:


> The inclusiveness that Glenn seems to be supporting for the KKW reminds me of the 1st dan promotion that Won Sik Kang and Kyong Myong Lee wrote about in A Modern History of Taekwondo.  Because all of the kwans practiced different forms and had differences in technique, the examinees were allowed to choose from certain forms for each Dan level.




That was stage two, where the pioneers attempted to unify the certification through the Korea Taesoodo Association, instead of individual kwan giving kwan dan certification. With the creation of the Palgwae, Taeguek and Yudanja poomsae, that set up stage three, which wasn't fully set into motion until the 80's and early 90s. That belt test was in 1962. Think stages of unification, then things will be clear. And on your own personal situation, ask yourself, which stage are you at?


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## puunui (Jan 21, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> but isnt the whole point of the KKW so that if any KKW dan holder goes to a new school, he KNOWS the school teaches what he knows and makes sure the dan holder knows what the school does? one of the big selling points i was told was that you can travel and know what you are walking into with any KKW school anywhere in the world.....



Sure, when everyone is at stage three (technical unification) then yes everyone will be doing basically the same thing. That is the way it is in korea, for less than twenty years now. In the US, we are not quite at that stage. we are still stuck at stage two, which is trying to get everyone on the same page, certification wise. We are at least past stage one, which is agreeing on the name taekwondo, although General Choi tried hard to chaotically destroy or muddle that, by saying kukki taekwondo is not "real" or "authentic" taekwondo. 

Bottom line for you is, if you do not want kukkiwon certification, then don't worry about it. no one will force you to get it.


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## puunui (Jan 21, 2012)

RobinTKD said:


> Does this mean that they must start practising the Kukkiwon curriculum, ie taegueks over chan hong forms? And that they should start competing in WTF organised events in place of ITF?




I don't know if I really answered this question of yours. But let me say this, I have helped a lot of very sincere instructors out there all over the US, and I can tell you that every time I look at the medalists at a USTU National Event, I always see people that I have promoted to kukkiwon poom or dan rank. I also see people who I have promoted who are now becoming WTF International Referees, and at least one is being suggested as a possible state president candidate, and that sort of thing. I saw names of those I promoted as participants at last week's US Olympic Trials. They are all over the place, achieving great things for themselves, their teacher, their school and their art. Why not promote them and help them live out their dreams? I rather do that than sit behind my computer and try to continuously rain on their parade. I want to help them, just like I want to help any other member of my family. 

And if that makes me a bad guy, for wanting to help fellow members of my family, then so be it.


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## puunui (Jan 21, 2012)

I believe this has been the approach of the pioneers with respect to kukkiwon certification, Matthew Chapter 13:

1 The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side.

 2 And great multitudes were gathered together unto  him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood  on the shore.

 3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;

 4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:

 5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not  much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness  of earth:

 6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.

 7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:

 8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

The Kukkiwon (and I) concentrate on and hope for the last group, the ones that hopefully fall on good ground and bear fruit, some hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold. The haters concentrate on those seeds that fall by the wayside, or upon stony places, or among thorns, and then criticize the Kukkiwon for giving certification to those types of people. Which would you rather be, someone who gives their faith and hope to people, or the one who condemns the entire system because not every seed bears fruit?


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## RobinTKD (Jan 21, 2012)

Please don't misunderstand me, my thoughts were that I think it's a good thing for all Taekwondo to come under one umbrella. For me, I'd like to still practice the Chang Hon tul, but if I was to fight in competition, I'd do it under the WTF rule set because it's full contact, and I can't stand 'semi-contact' sparring. Taekwondo is so broken in the UK with regards to the ITF it's ridiculous, but you look at our Kukkiwon schools and they're churning out champions like Aaron Cook, Sarah Stevenson, and a hopeful future champion Jade Jones. If the ITF came under the Kukkiwon, with the freedom to still practice the way they do, but with full contact sparring, i can't see that as anything other than positive


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## Kong Soo Do (Jan 21, 2012)

puunui said:


> See my discussion about the three stages of unification. There is no "lack of technical standard".



Not what you said previously, which I quoted on page 3;



			
				puunui said:
			
		

> It  is my opinion that access to kukkiwon certification is a RIGHT of all  taekwondoin -- everyone is entitled to it, no matter what their  political affiliation *or the technical guidelines that they follow*





			
				puunui said:
			
		

> *I liberally gave everyone the opportunity to obtain kukkiwon certification, without restriction.*



If they don't know the KKW curriculum then they lack the technical standards of the KKW.  

And to continue, Twin Fist asked made the following legitimate observation;



			
				Twin Fist said:
			
		

> but isnt the whole point of the KKW so that if any KKW dan holder goes  to a new school, he KNOWS the school teaches what he knows and makes  sure the dan holder knows what the school does? one of the big selling  points i was told was that you can travel and know what you are walking  into with any KKW school anywhere in the world.....



Your reply;



> Sure, when everyone is at stage three (technical unification) then yes  everyone will be doing basically the same thing. That is the way it is  in korea, for less than twenty years now. In the US, we are not quite at  that stage. we are still stuck at stage two, which is trying to get  everyone on the same page, certification wise.



So we now have a huge, glaring problem Glenn.  According to you and this '3-stage' program the KKW wants to get everyone on board with the same certification and THEN they want to get the technical unification part taken care of at some point in the future.  But wait just a moment!!!



			
				puunui said:
			
		

> I've done over 1000 kukkiwon poom and dan certifications in my life.
> 
> Many  came from itf backgrounds and did not practice the kukkiwon poomsae.  But they were sincere and wanted kukkiwon certification. *Some, but not all, wanted to also learn the kukkiwon curriculum.
> 
> **I liberally gave everyone the opportunity to obtain kukkiwon certification, without restriction.*



You just defeated this 3-stage program Glenn.  If this 3-stage program is sincere, which it looks like quite a few people have their doubts and consider it a money grab, but IF it is sincere then they will never get past the 2nd stage thanks to people like you and others that hand out KKW certs to anyone and everyone.  By your own admission, you've given KKW certification to individuals that had no intention of ever learning the KKW curriculum!  By stating this, you knew in advance.  Now those that didn't care about the KKW or their curriculum can provide KKW certification to others that never learn or intend to learn the KKW curriculum!  And your just one person that has done this multiple times.  There are others that have gone on to do the same thing over and over.  So by your hand, and the hand of those like you the KKW now has untold numbers of people that don't know the KKW curriculum....will never know the KKW curriculum and will get KKW certification to others that don't know and won't know the KKW curriculum.  And obviously its still happening today.

So much for ever getting to stage 3!


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 21, 2012)

puunui said:


> Sure, when everyone is at stage three (technical unification) then yes everyone will be doing basically the same thing. That is the way it is in korea, for less than twenty years now. In the US, we are not quite at that stage. we are still stuck at stage two, which is trying to get everyone on the same page, certification wise. We are at least past stage one, which is agreeing on the name taekwondo, although General Choi tried hard to chaotically destroy or muddle that, by saying kukki taekwondo is not "real" or "authentic" taekwondo.
> Bottom line for you is, if you do not want kukkiwon certification, then don't worry about it. no one will force you ito get it.


It seems more logical to me to get technical unification first and then go from there. Thats the way most successful business models work. Set standards, make sure standards are adhered to and then grow the business/org. The theory of just monopolise a service, then worry about standards seems quite backward from a business perspective. As a potential kkw convert I would rather see the complete business model, the standards, the degree to which standards are enforced, THEN I can make an informed decision regarding the organisation. Then again, Im australian and am probably too backward to understand doing it the other way around


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## mastercole (Jan 21, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> It seems more logical to me to get technical unification first and then go from there. Thats the way most successful business models work. Set standards, make sure standards are adhered to and then grow the business/org. The theory of just monopolise a service, then worry about standards seems quite backward from a business perspective. As a potential kkw convert I would rather see the complete business model, the standards, the degree to which standards are enforced, THEN I can make an informed decision regarding the organisation. Then again, Im australian and am probably too backward to understand doing it the other way around



If you are marketing cell phones, then yes.  But Kukkiwon and WTF have already proved this point, with their massive growth.  So what they are doing, is working.   Look at all the mutant so-called martial arts mish-mash groups who demand adherence to some grandpooba's greatly flawed technical standard, they ended up in nowheresville.


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## puunui (Jan 21, 2012)

RobinTKD said:


> Please don't misunderstand me, my thoughts were that I think it's a good thing for all Taekwondo to come under one umbrella. For me, I'd like to still practice the Chang Hon tul, but if I was to fight in competition, I'd do it under the WTF rule set because it's full contact, and I can't stand 'semi-contact' sparring. Taekwondo is so broken in the UK with regards to the ITF it's ridiculous, but you look at our Kukkiwon schools and they're churning out champions like Aaron Cook, Sarah Stevenson, and a hopeful future champion Jade Jones. If the ITF came under the Kukkiwon, with the freedom to still practice the way they do, but with full contact sparring, i can't see that as anything other than positive



That is how it usually starts, an interest in olympic style competition. Many ITF converts have done very successfully in WTF competition. GM John Holloway from the US was a bronze medalist at the first ITF World Championships, and then became a multi time medalist at the WTF World Championships. In fact, many in the USTU had ITF backgrounds, including one president, GM Holloway's instructor, Dr. YANG Dong Ja. 

The ITF instructors that we helped here back in the 90s, they still have a fondness for the ITF forms, which frankly I never understood. But they teach the taeguek and yudanja poomsae to their students, but still practice their itf forms on their own. Welcome to the family.  

In Hawaii, we have this concept called ohana, which means family or extended family. Some strict constructionists say that ohana means only blood family, but most people here apply it to the extended family. People welcome you into their homes and make you feel part of the family. I believe that this concept extends beyond Hawaii and is also part of Korean culture as well. 

But I also realize that many come from dysfunctional family situations, which may also extend towards their martial arts teachers. They were abused, or mistreated, in their homes or in their martial arts schools, at least in their minds, and now they project that to everything and everyone. As a fellow martial artist, I don't think I or anyone else can do much for these types of practitioners, who harbor hatred and resentment and anger toward their teachers, or their art, or those that created their art. I think that type of attitude, the smoldering negativity that is just waiting to be released like a volcanic explosion, tends to affect their entire martial arts experience. Luckily, that type of negativity is not as contagious as it once was. That type of phenomenon ran its course over the last ten years. But there are a few who still carry the chaotic banner of death and destruction for anything kukkiwon, wtf, or usat related. Those people, we cannot help. Today, people look at that type of irrational hate filled, ranting and raving and go "Whoa, that's not where I want to be." 

But luckily for every person like that, it has been my experience that there are a hundred more out there who are sincere, who do wish to be a part of kukki taekwondo. For those, there is many things we can do to assist them. UK is a different animal, it has its own issues going on, but if  you need help with Kukkiwon certification, I have a couple few friends  there who can assist you.


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## puunui (Jan 21, 2012)

PS: Good luck with your journey.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 21, 2012)

mastercole said:


> If you are marketing cell phones, then yes.  But Kukkiwon and WTF have already proved this point, with their massive growth.  So what they are doing, is working.   Look at all the mutant so-called martial arts mish-mash groups who demand adherence to some grandpooba's greatly flawed technical standard, they ended up in nowheresville.



I suppose thats where our views differ. If I was a GM with a very large well established club that had been around running successfully for many years, I would be hesitant to join an org who does not have clearly defined technical unification between all its member clubs otherwise it could undermine all my hard work in establishing my club. In my area, for instance, the kukkiwon has a bad name and almost all clubs are independent because of this. If my GM suddenly became a kukkiwon club people would leave in droves and go up the road and join another club. If every single kukkiwon club held the same standards a school owner could make a better informed decision on whether to join up.


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## puunui (Jan 21, 2012)

mastercole said:


> If you are marketing cell phones, then yes.  But Kukkiwon and WTF have already proved this point, with their massive growth.  So what they are doing, is working.   Look at all the mutant so-called martial arts mish-mash groups who demand adherence to some grandpooba's greatly flawed technical standard, they ended up in nowheresville.




Exactly. People say they don't like this or that or don't want to do this or that today, only to discover that they do want this or that later in life. I told this story before. We took a tour to korea a couple of years ago, miguksaram was there. On the trip was a senior american taekwondoin who had a dojang 7th dan and kukkiwon 2nd dan. We went to the kukkiwon, the muju park, and the wtf secretary general drove four hours from seoul to give us all wtf citations that we didn't ask for. During this trip, the dojang 7th dan looked very sad and realized that all the negative propaganda that he had been led to believe for thirty years about the kukkiwon and wtf was false and that he very much regretted not getting his kukkiwon rank when he had the chance. I thought he was going to cry. He is a good guy too. Oh well, another lost soul out there swinging in the wind, all because he listened to the wrong people.

One thing I learned from my teachers and also the pioneers is that people adapt and change. They have this hope and positive attitude that things will work out, given enough time, and that we will succeed, so keep pressing on. Way back when, one of my teachers had heard from someone about all the "bad" things that I was doing. The next time I saw my teacher, he smiled and said I was doing a good job, because if those complacent, always negative people were getting mad, then that means I must be doing a good job. But then again, that's the thing about level three teachers, they don't think like level one types, and frankly, neither did you or I.


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## RobinTKD (Jan 21, 2012)

puunui said:


> That is how it usually starts, an interest in olympic style competition. Many ITF converts have done very successfully in WTF competition. GM John Holloway from the US was a bronze medalist at the first ITF World Championships, and then became a multi time medalist at the WTF World Championships. In fact, many in the USTU had ITF backgrounds, including one president, GM Holloway's instructor, Dr. YANG Dong Ja.
> 
> The ITF instructors that we helped here back in the 90s, they still have a fondness for the ITF forms, which frankly I never understood. But they teach the taeguek and yudanja poomsae to their students, but still practice their itf forms on their own. Welcome to the family.
> 
> ...



Thank you for that Glenn, I'm sure that I will take you up on that offer in the future


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## Kong Soo Do (Jan 21, 2012)

mastercole said:


> If you are marketing cell phones, then yes.  But Kukkiwon and WTF have already proved this point, with their massive growth.  So what they are doing, is working.



This is circular reasoning, therefore it is illogical.  They have growth because individuals are allowing people in without regard to any standard of training or demonstrated loyalty to the organization.  Therefore technical standards don't exist and this supposed stage 3 can and will never be reached.  They've put the cart before the horse and its trying to be justified after the fact.



> Look at all the mutant so-called martial arts mish-mash groups who  demand adherence to some grandpooba's greatly flawed technical standard,  they ended up in nowheresville.



You keep mentioning these people, but when asked who they are you refuse to answer.  What is a mish-mash group?  Who is the grand pooba?  How do you judge that their technical standards are flawed?  What is your first hand experience with these people and their training?  Please provide something to back up what you're saying.  Thank you.


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## RobinTKD (Jan 21, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I suppose thats where our views differ. If I was a GM with a very large well established club that had been around running successfully for many years, I would be hesitant to join an org who does not have clearly defined technical unification between all its member clubs otherwise it could undermine all my hard work in establishing my club. In my area, for instance, the kukkiwon has a bad name and almost all clubs are independent because of this. If my GM suddenly became a kukkiwon club people would leave in droves and go up the road and join another club. If every single kukkiwon club held the same standards a school owner could make a better informed decision on whether to join up.




Just my 2 pence, that isn't just a problem with KKW schools, it's also a problem with ITF schools, in fact, it's a problem in most martial arts! We've had long discussions in other threads about what makes a good school, or how to spot a good school, one of the conclusions we came to was just to try it out and see what you think, you have nothing to lose and everything to gain.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 21, 2012)

RobinTKD said:


> Just my 2 pence, that isn't just a problem with KKW schools, it's also a problem with ITF schools, in fact, it's a problem in most martial arts! We've had long discussions in other threads about what makes a good school, or how to spot a good school, one of the conclusions we came to was just to try it out and see what you think, you have nothing to lose and everything to gain.


I couldn't agree more.


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## puunui (Jan 21, 2012)

RobinTKD said:


> Thank you for that Glenn, I'm sure that I will take you up on that offer in the future



Glad to help out.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 21, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> This is circular reasoning, therefore it is illogical.  They have growth because individuals are allowing people in without regard to any standard of training or demonstrated loyalty to the organization.  Therefore technical standards don't exist and this supposed stage 3 can and will never be reached.  They've put the cart before the horse and its trying to be justified after the fact.
> 
> 
> 
> You keep mentioning these people, but when asked who they are you refuse to answer.  What is a mish-mash group?  Who is the grand pooba?  How do you judge that their technical standards are flawed?  What is your first hand experience with these people and their training?  Please provide something to back up what you're saying.  Thank you.


we've been down this road before. I think you will find the "propoganda" fed to many (not all) students is a "mish mash" group is a tkd club not affiliated with the kukkiwon. A "grand poo bah" is a GM of a club that is not kukkiwon affiliated. Basically the kukkiwon have well respected GM's and independents have grand poo bahs. The irony is that where we train we have a set standard that all instructors must adhere to and they are regularly checked to see the are doing the right thing. Our grading requirements are set, as is our curriculum and yet we are a mish mash group. My GM with 65 years training and thousands of black belts trained to a very high standad is a grand poo bah. Go figure


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## mastercole (Jan 21, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I suppose thats where our views differ. If I was a GM with a very large well established club that had been around running successfully for many years, I would be hesitant to join an org who does not have clearly defined technical unification between all its member clubs otherwise it could undermine all my hard work in establishing my club. In my area, for instance, the kukkiwon has a bad name and almost all clubs are independent because of this. If my GM suddenly became a kukkiwon club people would leave in droves and go up the road and join another club. If every single kukkiwon club held the same standards a school owner could make a better informed decision on whether to join up.



We were talking about the success of the Kukkiwon and the WTF. So I was thinking global, not local. Your local situation is obviously not and example of what has happened globally.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 21, 2012)

mastercole said:


> We were talking about the success of the Kukkiwon and the WTF. So I was thinking global, not local. Your local situation is obviously not and example of what has happened globally.


So outside of my area are there no good independent clubs? Or are only 'some' clubs of these clubs run by grand poo bahs? Because if this is the case, couldnt the exact same thing be said of 'some' kukkiwon clubs? I can tell you now that if you looked up grand poo bah in the dictionary there would be a photo of the GM at our local kukkiwon club, he epitomises everything that image conjurs up. As has been said in the past, popularty does not necessarilly equal quality. Mcdonalds is popular, but does that mean they are a quality restaurant. Im sorry, but the theory of "because the kukkiwon is signing up heaps of members therefore they must be good" just doesnt wash with me. I think the kukkiwon curriculum is excellent, I really do, and I know many many good kukkiwon black belts, BUT I also know many many sub par kukkiwon blackbelts and mcdojos that are kukkiwon. I just dont understand (in any business) having standards if no one goes around to check clubs are adhering to them.


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## mastercole (Jan 21, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> we've been down this road before. I think you will find the "propoganda" fed to many (not all) students is a "mish mash" group is a tkd club not affiliated with the kukkiwon. A "grand poo bah" is a GM of a club that is not kukkiwon affiliated. Basically the kukkiwon have well respected GM's and independents have grand poo bahs. The irony is that where we train we have a set standard that all instructors must adhere to and they are regularly checked to see the are doing the right thing. Our grading requirements are set, as is our curriculum and yet we are a mish mash group. My GM with 65 years training and thousands of black belts trained to a very high standad is a grand poo bah. Go figure



Ralph I am sorry that you feel your school fits in the grandpooba scheme of things. I would have never considered it as such, based on what you have written.


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## mastercole (Jan 21, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> So outside of my area are there no good independent clubs? Or are only 'some' clubs of these clubs run by grand poo bahs? Because if this is the case, couldnt the exact same thing be said of 'some' kukkiwon clubs? I can tell you now that if you looked up grand poo bah in the dictionary there would be a photo of the GM at our local kukkiwon club, he epitomises everything that image conjurs up.



From my experience I've have seen both, but way more poobahs in one. How many schools, Kukkiwon affiliated and no-affiliated have you trained with inside, or outside of your area?  Have you trained with people from hundreds of schools, from Australia?  How about people from hundreds of schools from around the world?


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 21, 2012)

Just as an aside mastercole, I am really enjoying this thread and the ongoing debate. I am grateful that you can discuss this in a good manner. Its very interesting and enlightening to be able to discuss this subject without either party being offended or lowering themselves to cheap shots. I enjoy this topic but its hard to find people to discuss it with who keep it 'friendly'. The last time we had this debate it ended with someone (no prizes for guessing who) declaring that "to them I am dead" or some other karate kid line. Again, thank you.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 21, 2012)

mastercole said:


> From my experience I've have seen both, but way more poobahs in one. How many schools, Kukkiwon affiliated and no-affiliated have you trained with inside, or outside of your area?  Have you trained with people from hundreds of schools, from Australia?  How about people from hundreds of schools from around the world?


I have trained with many people from australia but only a handful from outside this country. I train at a club that attracts a lot of ex kkw guys who are looking to get away from the 'sport' side of things. They have spoken to me at length about all the good and bad things they found training at kukkiwon clubs.I have two close friends who are kukkiwon black belts and we train together regularly. My neighbour is a korean who is a kukkiwon black belt, and I have some friends who are ITF and WTF from europe who now live over here. So basically my knowledge is limited, but as Ive said I find the kukkiwon curriculum (when taught properly) to be a good curriculum and I hope one day the powers that be can see to it that all kukkiwon clubs world wide have the same standards and systems are put in place to make sure these are adhered to.


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## mastercole (Jan 21, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I have trained with many people from australia but only a handful from outside this country. I train at a club that attracts a lot of ex kkw guys who are looking to get away from the 'sport' side of things. They have spoken to me at length about all the good and bad things they found training at kukkiwon clubs.I have two close friends who are kukkiwon black belts and we train together regularly. My neighbour is a korean who is a kukkiwon black belt, and I have some friends who are ITF and WTF from europe who now live over here. So basically my knowledge is limited, but as Ive said I find the kukkiwon curriculum (when taught properly) to be a good curriculum and I hope one day the powers that be can see to it that all kukkiwon clubs world wide have the same standards and systems are put in place to make sure these are adhered to.



That is your experience and I understand it. To me when someone says I trained with "a lot" of ex Kukkiwon guys, I think in the hundreds, maybe the thousands, but I really don't think this is the case.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 21, 2012)

mastercole said:


> That is your experience and I understand it. To me when someone says I trained with "a lot" of ex Kukkiwon guys, I think in the hundreds, maybe the thousands, but I really don't think this is the case.


Im curious, I constantly hear on martial talk about the huge number of mcdojos in America (particularly in the general martial arts section) and it appears that the vast majority of them are tkd clubs, which is understandable considering tkd is by far the most popular art so obviously there are more tkd clubs and thus they make up a large % of mcdojos. From your experience what % of these mcdojos are "technically" kkw clubs? Even if only a small %, say 500 clubs across the country, does it bother you that these clubs give your org a bad name? We had a club in our org once that was becoming a bit mcdojoish and it was very quickly handed to another instructor to sort the problem. Id love the day to come where the kukkiwon can do the same.


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## mastercole (Jan 21, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Im curious, I constantly hear on martial talk about the huge number of mcdojos in America (particularly in the general martial arts section) and it appears that the vast majority of them are tkd clubs, which is understandable considering tkd is by far the most popular art so obviously there are more tkd clubs and thus they make up a large % of mcdojos. From your experience what % of these mcdojos are "technically" kkw clubs? Even if only a small %, say 500 clubs across the country, does it bother you that these clubs give your org a bad name? We had a club in our org once that was becoming a bit mcdojoish and it was very quickly handed to another instructor to sort the problem. Id love the day to come where the kukkiwon can do the same.



It's not style specific.  Example in my market area I am the only Kukkiwon style school and we compete with about 20 schools. Three of those schools are ATA, and the rest are a spin off Kenpo and Karate, and one Kungfu school. The one Karate school that I considered to have good quality black belts closed. 

In the USA Commercial schools are for profit schools, whether or not the instructors have true knowledge and ability to teach that knowledge does not matter to the greater population in their market. They are usually beautiful schools with all kinds of planed out events that keep the kids begging to go back and have fun. The school might have instructors with knowledge, or no knowledge, but it does not matter because these customers are not there for true knowledge and learning. The learning is simple rote and it's designed to be easy to remember and repeat and deceives the students, and ESPECIALLY the parents.  These schools draw the masses. I would guess this is generally what you mean by mcdojo.  I do not like that this has become the most popular school type in the USA. But it's like many other things in the USA that I call the "dumbing down" of America.  But this is not all commercial schools.

Commercial schools that do not at least partially follow this model of fun and events, etc, will not ever attract the masses, no matter how good the quality of martial arts provided. These schools struggle and eventually go out of business.  If the instructors had true knowledge, no one will ever have a chance to learn it.  A mistake on the owners part.

I think the best model, at least for me, is a school that on the surface appears to be at least part mcdojo because that is what the masses like. The curriculum has to be at least a % of fun, easy to remember stuff which tricks them into focusing on the real skills which would be the majority of most classes.  You have to watch class close, when it looks like you have pushed people to their limit, it's dodgeball time for 5 minutes, water break, then change the subject to something else important, so if feels new and push them again.  That group can build up to be quite large. And if you are keeping on them about good skills, eventually, over time, and maybe many years of time, some will come around and want to dig deeper.  It's either do it this way, or let them go down the street where it is all play and they will never come around to learn anything at all about martial arts.

That said, we are always looking at the whole class to see who is serious, hard working and has potential to be a good student.  Once those folks are identified, they are taken aside and invited to off hours training that contains zero fluff, starts out at 2 hours per day with the goal of reaching 6 hours per day. There is no cost for that off hours training.  That said, once students reach 3rd Dan in our school, classes are tuition free. All Dan promotion fees are also instantly credited back to students who continue on to the next Dan up to 3rd. However, students who train with intensity in the off hours training get to tuition free much earlier.

So no, I don't like the mcdojo thing, but in order to survive you have to use some of their marketing and motivation ideas, but as I said above good instructors with good knowledge and skill will pull from that crowd those with excellent potential.  It's two schools in one.


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## puunui (Jan 21, 2012)

mastercole said:


> We were talking about the success of the Kukkiwon and the WTF. So I was thinking global, not local. Your local situation is obviously not and example of what has happened globally.



Al, if I were you, I would save my energy. Been down this road before, the perspectives are just too different. You're thinking globally and in accordance with the pioneer's thoughts and wishes. He is not.


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## Archtkd (Jan 21, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Im curious, I constantly hear on martial talk about the huge number of mcdojos in America (particularly in the general martial arts section) and it appears that the vast majority of them are tkd clubs, which is understandable considering tkd is by far the most popular art so obviously there are more tkd clubs and thus they make up a large % of mcdojos. From your experience what % of these mcdojos are "technically" kkw clubs? Even if only a small %, say 500 clubs across the country, does it bother you that these clubs give your org a bad name? We had a club in our org once that was becoming a bit mcdojoish and it was very quickly handed to another instructor to sort the problem. Id love the day to come where the kukkiwon can do the same.



I can't speak for the entire U.S., but there's something interesting I'm discovering in my neck of the woods in the St. Louis metro area and I'm sure this applies to many other parts of the nation. A number of big and succesful taekwondo dojangs here, which many might describe as McDojangs, advertise themselves as Kukkiwon style schools, with Kukkiwon certified "grandmasters," but they no longer offer their members opportunity for Kukkiwon dan certification. I don't think such dojangs should really be considered as Kukkiwon taekwondo schools. Those dojangs often carry the Kukkiwon logo on their web sites, teach variations of Kukkiwon poomsae and sparring for the most part, but when it comes to certification, they issue in-house dan certificate, for which they charge very stiff prices. Often members of those dojangs assume they've been issued internationally recognized certification, only to sadly realize that is not the case when they visit dojangs run by Kukkiwon certified instructors, who strongly believe their students should get opportunity to get the same type of certification they (teachers) have.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 21, 2012)

puunui said:


> Al, if I were you, I would save my energy. Been down this road before, the perspectives are just too different. You're thinking globally and in accordance with the pioneer's thoughts and wishes. He is not.


Or perhaps, unlike you, he is prepared to take onboard all schools of thought. Its been a great discussion. Its not a 'game', there is no winner in these discussions. It is people from different backgrounds sharing their experiences and beliefs, it's what makes places like these so great.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 21, 2012)

Archtkd said:


> I can't speak for the entire U.S., but there's something interesting I'm discovering in my neck of the woods in the St. Louis metro area and I'm sure this applies to many other parts of the nation. A number of big and succesful taekwondo dojangs here, which many might describe as McDojangs, advertise themselves as Kukkiwon style schools, with Kukkiwon certified "grandmasters," but they no longer offer their members opportunity for Kukkiwon dan certification. I don't think such dojangs should really be considered as Kukkiwon taekwondo schools. Those dojangs often carry the Kukkiwon logo on their web sites, teach variations of Kukkiwon poomsae and sparring for the most part, but when it comes to certification, they issue in-house dan certificate, for which they charge very stiff prices. Often members of those dojangs assume they've been issued internationally recognized certification, only to sadly realize that is not the case when they visit dojangs run by Kukkiwon certified instructors, who strongly believe their students should get opportunity to get the same type of certification they (teachers) have.


Thats interesting. It seems a double standard to "use" the kukkiwon as a sales tool but not pass on acreditation from the kukkiwon. They cant have their cake and eat it too. Its a different thing entirely when a school does not give out kukkiwon certs but also does not say they teach the kukkiwon material.


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## puunui (Jan 21, 2012)

mastercole said:


> That is your experience and I understand it. To me when someone says I trained with "a lot" of ex Kukkiwon guys, I think in the hundreds, maybe the thousands, but I really don't think this is the case.



Over and above the fact that there are no "ex kukkiwon" guys. Even if you do something incredibly hateful, malicious or fraudulent towards the kukkiwon, the kukkiwon won't kick you out. They may demote you, and take away your kukkiwon poom and dan promotional privileges, but they won't kick you out such that you are an "ex kukkiwon guy".


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 21, 2012)

puunui said:


> Over and above the fact that there are no "ex kukkiwon" guys. Even if you do something incredibly hateful, malicious or fraudulent towards the kukkiwon, the kukkiwon won't kick you out. They may demote you, and take away your kukkiwon poom and dan promotional privileges, but they won't kick you out such that you are an "ex kukkiwon guy".


What about someone who starts out training kkw tkd but leaves and trains  in another form of tkd never to return, wouldnt that make them  ex-kukkiwon? when a rugby league player leaves the code and goes to  rugby union he is considered an ex-league player, would the same not  apply in other sports? I know my instructor regards himself as an ex-kkw guy.


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## puunui (Jan 22, 2012)

Archtkd said:


> Those dojangs often carry the Kukkiwon logo on their web sites, teach variations of Kukkiwon poomsae and sparring for the most part, but when it comes to certification, they issue in-house dan certificate, for which they charge very stiff prices. Often members of those dojangs assume they've been issued internationally recognized certification, only to sadly realize that is not the case when they visit dojangs run by Kukkiwon certified instructors, who strongly believe their students should get opportunity to get the same type of certification they (teachers) have.



We try to help these types of students too. They have stage 1 and for the most part stage 3, but not 2, the most common situation really in the United States. Easy fix. 

One thing we try to tell these students is not to be bitter, angry or resentful towards their teachers, who are their teachers for the rest of their lives. In my book, there is no such thing as "former teacher", just like there is no such thing as "former father" or "former mother". Your parents are your parents for your entire life. Once someone becomes bitter towards their teacher, then it is only natural that they will also become bitter towards other seniors as well. That we cannot have. That trait, open disrespect for seniors, has caused more harm to taekwondo and all other martial arts really, than all other causes combined. Once I see that trait, I generally do not promote them. Sometimes I will, if I wish to set up "the bachi" as we say in Hawaii. But open disrespect for seniors is a huge red flag.


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## mastercole (Jan 22, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Or perhaps, unlike you, he is prepared to take onboard all schools of thought. Its been a great discussion. Its not a 'game', there is no winner in these discussions. It is people from different backgrounds sharing their experiences and beliefs, it's what makes places like these so great.



Actually, talking with puunui over the past 16, 17 or so years (I forget) eventually moved me to a point when I am more willing to look at other schools of thought. I'm still not as accepting as he is though. Just because you don't agree with his comments, don't think he is not willing to look deeply into something. Maybe what you are experiencing is that he has already been there and done that, for real, kind of thing.


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## Gorilla (Jan 22, 2012)

KKW certification has been a very good thing.  It was the first thing our Shotokan instructor asked for.  He said that most of the KKW bb that he's trained with have a very solid base.  Our experience has been that KKW certification carries allot of weight.


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## mastercole (Jan 22, 2012)

puunui said:


> Over and above the fact that there are no "ex kukkiwon" guys. Even if you do something incredibly hateful, malicious or fraudulent towards the kukkiwon, the kukkiwon won't kick you out. They may demote you, and take away your kukkiwon poom and dan promotional privileges, but they won't kick you out such that you are an "ex kukkiwon guy".



IMEO, it is very odd that someone tells others "I'm not longer with Kukkiwon" [insert excuse]. I knew some guys like that. It seems to mostly be guys (not all) with big egos and self image problems who want to be the big fish but could only do so in a small pond, so they went off to make a small pond and plopped down in it. I observed these guys and always notice they are really self conscience in the main stream, to many other big fish, or bigger fish swimming around in the big pond. And they make up all these negative things to say about the big pond to keep there student away from the big pond. I feel like they they hide behind the false vale of so-called tradition because ultimately, they feel they can not compete in the bigger scheme of things. Of course that is just in my very limited experience.

Reminds me of that movie THE VILLAGE

The Village is a 2004 American thriller film written and directed by M. Night Shyamalan about an end-of-the-19th-century village whose inhabitants live in fear of the creatures inhabiting the woods beyond it.
The occupants of a small village live in fear of nameless creatures in the surrounding woods. They have built a barrier of oil lanterns and watch towers that are constantly manned to keep watch for "Those We Don't Speak Of." It is explained that the villagers have a long-standing truce with the monsters; the villagers do not go into their woods, and the creatures do not enter their village. The villagers execute a well-rehearsed alarm, in which they rush home, lock their doors and hide in their cellars. The dead, skinned bodies of small animals start to appear around the village. _But it all turns out to be an elaborate hoax._


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 22, 2012)

mastercole said:


> IMEO, it is very odd that someone tells others "I'm not longer with Kukkiwon" [insert excuse]. I knew some guys like that. It seems to mostly be guys (not all) with big egos and self image problems who want to be the big fish but could only do so in a small pond, so they went off to make a small pond and plopped down in it. I observed these guys and always notice they are really self conscience in the main stream, to many other big fish, or bigger fish swimming around in the big pond. And they make up all these negative things to say about the big pond to keep there student away from the big pond. I feel like they they hide behind the false vale of so-called tradition because ultimately, they feel they can not compete in the bigger scheme of things. Of course that is just in my very limited experience.
> 
> Reminds me of that movie THE VILLAGE
> 
> ...


Any time Ive come across an "ex-kukkiwon", they have been quite good about it with no ego. In fact, if you dont ask, they wont bring it up. I was unaware of what the kukkiwon was until one day reading about it on the internet. I was a red belt at the time and asked my instructor if he was kukkiwon certified. He told me that years ago he was, but had moved on. He didnt speak negatively of the kukkiwon at all, and had I never asked he never would have brought it up. The many, many kukkiwon guys who come to our club are the same. When they first start they may briefly mention that they are looking for something a little less 'sporty', but as a whole they generally speak quite favourably of the kukkiwon and really dont discuss it. Ive been out many times with these guys at our post-grading korean bbq and I have often spoke to them at length about it and they are more than happy to discuss their time in kukkiwon clubs, but unless someone asks they really dont bring it up. Its a shame you know of ex kukkiwon guys who have ego and openly speak negatively about it. My personal experience has been different. I think there are a lot of misconceptions on both sides of the fence. I quite often find that people think that independent clubs are made up of anti-kukkiwon people spreading their anti-kukkiwon propaganda to all who will listen. My experience has been very different, and no doubt the same can be seen in most independent clubs . We dont see the kukkiwon as a threat to our business, they offer a different product. Not a better product, not a worse product, just a different product, just as we are no threat to kukkiwon clubs. We co-exist just nicely and dont need to bag out on the other to boost our own egos.


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## puunui (Jan 22, 2012)

mastercole said:


> Actually, talking with puunui over the past 16, 17 or so years (I forget) eventually moved me to a point when I am more willing to look at other schools of thought. I'm still not as accepting as he is though. Just because you don't agree with his comments, don't think he is not willing to look deeply into something. Maybe what you are experiencing is that he has already been there and done that, for real, kind of thing.



I know I met you person at that USTU Meeting which was attended by Dr. KIM Un Yong and Jidokwan President LEE Seung Wan. In fact I was sitting with GM Lee in the lobby of the hotel when you came up to say hello to GM Lee. That was in the mid 90's sometime.


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## puunui (Jan 22, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> KKW certification has been a very good thing.  It was the first thing our Shotokan instructor asked for.  He said that most of the  KKW bb that he's trained with have a very solid base.  Our experience has been that KKW certification carries allot of weight.



Kukkiwon certification does carry a lot of weight. It is at the same time the most desired certification out there and also the one that is given the most. It is easy to see why some people would want to rain on the Kukkiwon's parade.


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## puunui (Jan 22, 2012)

mastercole said:


> IMEO, it is very odd that someone tells others "I'm not longer with Kukkiwon" [insert excuse]. I knew some guys like that. It seems to mostly be guys (not all) with big egos and self image problems who want to be the big fish but could only do so in a small pond, so they went off to make a small pond and plopped down in it.



Either that, or they simply want to keep all of the testing fees for themselves, and then make up elaborate stories about how much more valuable the dojang certification is, because it is signed by them and not someone thousands of miles away in Korea. If they want to keep all the testing fees, then fine, but they don't need to speak ill of the Kukkiwon, especially if they themselves are busy seeking out higher kukkiwon dan for themselves. 




mastercole said:


> I observed these guys and always notice they are really self conscience in the main stream, to many other big fish, or bigger fish swimming around in the big pond. And they make up all these negative things to say about the big pond to keep there student away from the big pond. I feel like they they hide behind the false vale of so-called tradition because ultimately, they feel they can not compete in the bigger scheme of things. Of course that is just in my very limited experience.



Yes, those who like to criticize the Kukkiwon should really show up and try to do the same thing at the World Hanmadang, the World Championships or the Olympics. Stage an "Occupy Kukkiwon" sit in, and see how much support they get for that from taekwondoin. Kukkiwon certification is the most desired taekwondo certification in the world. People do all kinds of crazy things to obtain it. What I try to do is take the madness out of the process, as well as the high costs sometimes associated with kukkiwon certification. When I process Kukkiwon certification, I charge them cost, plus whatever it is for postage. I don't make anything on this stuff. But then again, I am not in the habit of charging family members big bucks when they need help. 




mastercole said:


> Reminds me of that movie THE VILLAGE
> The Village is a 2004 American thriller film written and directed by M. Night Shyamalan about an end-of-the-19th-century village whose inhabitants live in fear of the creatures inhabiting the woods beyond it.
> The occupants of a small village live in fear of nameless creatures in the surrounding woods. They have built a barrier of oil lanterns and watch towers that are constantly manned to keep watch for "Those We Don't Speak Of." It is explained that the villagers have a long-standing truce with the monsters; the villagers do not go into their woods, and the creatures do not enter their village. The villagers execute a well-rehearsed alarm, in which they rush home, lock their doors and hide in their cellars. The dead, skinned bodies of small animals start to appear around the village. _But it all turns out to be an elaborate hoax._



Good movie. I never thought about how the parable of the movie fit with sheltered martial arts students before. Mr. Shyamalan made good movies, but I think he has slowed down now.


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## miguksaram (Jan 23, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> but isnt the whole point of the KKW so that if any KKW dan holder goes to a new school, he KNOWS the school teaches what he knows and makes sure the dan holder knows what the school does?
> 
> one of the big selling points i was told was that you can travel and know what you are walking into with any KKW school anywhere in the world.....


Yes and no.  Remember the KKW does not dictate what you can and cannot teach in your school.  All they require, for their certification is that you, at minimum, adhere to a set standard of form and techniques in order to receive their certificates.  If you want to teach arnis, kempo, kumdo, hapkido, they don't care.  When you stand in front of their board, you will only be tested on their standards.  

Example:  If I was to go to a KKW school, I  will be recognized as a KKW 3rd dan (hopefully 4th by the end of this  year  ).  I will know their KKW curriculum requirements.  However, they may have more curriculum above that set by KKW which they require in order for me to achieve their school certificate.  So in essence you have an idea of what you are walking into from a KKW perspective, but the school may have more material than just KKW.


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## d1jinx (Jan 23, 2012)

miguksaram said:


> Yes and no.  Remember the KKW does not dictate what you can and cannot teach in your school.  All they require, for their certification is that you, at minimum, adhere to a set standard of form and techniques in order to receive their certificates.  If you want to teach arnis, kempo, kumdo, hapkido, they don't care.  When you stand in front of their board, you will only be tested on their standards.
> 
> Example:  If I was to go to a KKW school, I  will be recognized as a KKW 3rd dan (hopefully 4th by the end of this  year  ).  I will know their KKW curriculum requirements.  However, they may have more curriculum above that set by KKW which they require in order for me to achieve their school certificate.  So in essence you have an idea of what you are walking into from a KKW perspective, but the school may have more material than just KKW.




I just dont understand how people cant understand this.  It seems everyone looks at Kukkiwon's requirements and says "thats it?"...
I cant tell you how many times i tried to explain that to people and they just didnt want to "get it".  I think it was more of an-anti-kukkiwon thing.  usually those against it love to quote the "requirements of kukkiwon".

but it does not help when schools out there only do that, the minimum.


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## dancingalone (Jan 23, 2012)

d1jinx said:


> I just dont understand how people cant understand this.  It seems everyone looks at Kukkiwon's requirements and says "thats it?"...
> I cant tell you how many times i tried to explain that to people and they just didnt want to "get it".  I think it was more of an-anti-kukkiwon thing.  usually those against it love to quote the "requirements of kukkiwon".
> 
> but it does not help when schools out there only do that, the minimum.


 
I think the idea is a little bit foreign to martial artists that study other arts.  Take for example the various karate styles, even those that came from common (relatively) ancestry such as Seidokan Shorin-ryu and Matsubayashi Shorin-ryu.  They have different syllabi, perhaps with more shared than not, but there's sufficient differences as well as an overall VOLUME of material that it makes the idea of a small federated subset of learning such as the KKW requirement, to be odd in conception to people who used to the other way of doing things.

Now translate that to entirely different systems like Goju-ryu vs. Shotokan and the perplexed looks get bigger.

I make no value judgement on the KKW's 'sparse' way of doing requirements.  I can see pluses and minuses either way, depending on what one considers important.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 23, 2012)

d1jinx said:


> I just dont understand how people cant understand this.  It seems everyone looks at Kukkiwon's requirements and says "thats it?"...
> I cant tell you how many times i tried to explain that to people and they just didnt want to "get it".  I think it was more of an-anti-kukkiwon thing.  usually those against it love to quote the "requirements of kukkiwon".
> 
> but it does not help when schools out there only do that, the minimum.


As I said in a previous post, I really dont think that many people are "anti-kukkiwon".There are people who dont see joining the kukkiwon as necessary, but I really havent met many people who are anti-kukkiwon, Im certainly not.


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## puunui (Jan 23, 2012)

d1jinx said:


> I just dont understand how people cant understand this.  It seems everyone looks at Kukkiwon's requirements and says "thats it?"...
> I cant tell you how many times i tried to explain that to people and they just didnt want to "get it".  I think it was more of an-anti-kukkiwon thing.  usually those against it love to quote the "requirements of kukkiwon". but it does not help when schools out there only do that, the minimum.



If that were "only" the requirements, then why did so many people flunk out or didn't even bother to take the test at the Kukkiwon special testing? If people think that they requirements are "easy", then let them take the test themselves.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 23, 2012)

puunui said:


> If that were "only" the requirements, then why did so many people flunk out or didn't even bother to take the test at the Kukkiwon special testing? If people think that they requirements are "easy", then let them take the test themselves.


Again, I dont recall anybody saying kukkiwon requirements were "easy", Ive seen my kukkiwon friend grade for his black belt and it certainly wasnt easy. I couldnt have done it, but then I couldnt pass a shotokan, bjj, judo, aikido, hapkido, wing chun etc grading either because its not what I do. I think thats the point most make, they dont think the kukkiwon is 'easy', or 'watered down' or for 'kids' etc, I think the point I hear most make (not just here, but most people I talk to), is that they dont see the point in being acredited in something they dont do.


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## puunui (Jan 23, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> I think the idea is a little bit foreign to martial artists that study other arts.  Take for example the various karate styles, even those that came from common (relatively) ancestry such as Seidokan Shorin-ryu and Matsubayashi Shorin-ryu.  They have different syllabi, perhaps with more shared than not, but there's sufficient differences as well as an overall VOLUME of material that it makes the idea of a small federated subset of learning such as the KKW requirement, to be odd in conception to people who used to the other way of doing things.



I think now things are easier, with the vast information available on the internet, but back in the day, it certainly was not easy or simple to learn taekwondo, particularly taekwondo sparring. Back in the day, no one shared what they knew and if someone knew something, they kept it to themselves. It was incredibly difficult to gain any sort of conceptual information on what to do and how to do it, much less what fit where. It took a very long time to understand conceptually what kyorugi is about. It is certainly not something that can be learned overnight. That is just one small example of something within kukki taekwondo that looks easy, but in reality is not. It is a relatively simple matter to access the relative skill of a practitioner, in a minute of sparring at a test for example. If someone doesn't understand the modern training methods and modern sparring methods, it will be glaringly apparent in that minute.


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## Twin Fist (Jan 23, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> As I said in a previous post, I really dont think that many people are "anti-kukkiwon".There are people who dont see joining the kukkiwon as necessary, but I really havent met many people who are anti-kukkiwon, Im certainly not.



i am


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## miguksaram (Jan 24, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> I think the idea is a little bit foreign to martial artists that study other arts.  Take for example the various karate styles, even those that came from common (relatively) ancestry such as Seidokan Shorin-ryu and Matsubayashi Shorin-ryu.  They have different syllabi, perhaps with more shared than not, but there's sufficient differences as well as an overall VOLUME of material that it makes the idea of a small federated subset of learning such as the KKW requirement, to be odd in conception to people who used to the other way of doing things.


I see this in Shotokan and even Shorei/Shuri ryu as well.  This is what I like the KKW.  A set minimum standards are given. I go to one KKW school in Illinois or another KKW school in Kazakhstan, I will be able to step in and do what they do to in terms of KKW standards.  There is, or at least in theory, no deviation from those standards (Note:  I say theory only because some schools may or may not have kept up with most recent standards of KKW though even those have not varied much in the past years).  

If you go and watch Seipai or Seiunchin performed by 3 different karate schools (none of them under JKA standards), you could see three different variations of the forms.  Not that it is a bad thing, just makes it a bit more difficult for people who might be traveling from one school into another school and have to adapt to different standards of the same form.



> I make no value judgement on the KKW's 'sparse' way of doing requirements.  I can see pluses and minuses either way, depending on what one considers important.


Exactly.  It just depends on what feels right for you.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 24, 2012)

puunui said:


> Those are strictly in house certificates. It has always been my policy, as well as the policy of my taekwondo teachers, that you give the certification that you yourself receive.


Having trained in a break-away kendo school and now teaching for myself, I can tell everyone reading this thread the value of having the large organizational cert from the perspective of having trained under a sensei who did not issue to his students the certificates that he was issued.

I am in the process of becoming part of the Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu, and am thoroughly enjoying it.  However, I have spent over eight years in kendo and have students to whom I can only issue in house certificates as a result of my sensei having broken off to be an independent.

All that I can contribute to this discussion is that school owners who do not issue the certificates that they were issued and bring their own students up to high dan grades are, in my opinion, doing their students a grave disservice.  

I say that with no ill will towards independents or any judgement on the training at such schools.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 24, 2012)

miguksaram said:


> I see this in Shotokan and even Shorei/Shuri ryu as well.  This is what I like the KKW.  A set minimum standards are given. I go to one KKW school in Illinois or another KKW school in Kazakhstan, I will be able to step in and do what they do to in terms of KKW standards.  There is, or at least in theory, no deviation from those standards (Note:  I say theory only because some schools may or may not have kept up with most recent standards of KKW though even those have not varied much in the past years).
> 
> If you go and watch Seipai or Seiunchin performed by 3 different karate schools (none of them under JKA standards), you could see three different variations of the forms.  Not that it is a bad thing, just makes it a bit more difficult for people who might be traveling from one school into another school and have to adapt to different standards of the same form.
> 
> ...


This is whre Im getting a little confused. You give the example of someone training in Ilinois and moving to khazakstan and still knowing the basic requirements. I have stated here several times that our school doesnt teach kkw curriculum and I constantly get told "it doesnt matter, if your GM is kukkiwon certified he owes it to his students to get the same for them", despite the fact that he doesnt teach current kkw curriculum. So what happens when my GM gets me a kukkiwon certificate, I up and move to khazakstan and on my first night in class they are revising the taegek forms and I have absolutely no idea what Im doing, despite wearing a black belt. Im genuinely curious as to how this works, on one hand Im told it will make my rank transferable and I can move to a different place, find a kukkiwon club and know their standards but then on the other hand Im told my GM should get me a kkw cert despite the fact he doesnt teach these standards. Im confused.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 24, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Having trained in a break-away kendo school and now teaching for myself, I can tell everyone reading this thread the value of having the large organizational cert from the perspective of having trained under a sensei who did not issue to his students the certificates that he was issued.
> 
> I am in the process of becoming part of the Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu, and am thoroughly enjoying it.  However, I have spent over eight years in kendo and have students to whom I can only issue in house certificates as a result of my sensei having broken off to be an independent.
> 
> ...


Daniel, you say- "All that I can contribute to this discussion is that school owners who  do not issue the certificates that they were issued and bring their own  students up to high dan grades are, in my opinion, doing their students a  grave disservice". My question is, what if they no longer teach that curriculum? By handing out kkw certs if they dont teach the kukkiwon standards are they not doing a grave disservice to the kukkiwon by giving unqualified students a certification for something they dont know? As Ive said in previous posts, I have nothing against the kukkiwon, Im just struggling to grasp how this all works. I am in complete agreeance that if someone has kukkiwon certification and teaches the kukkiwon curriculum then they owe it to their students to pass on the same accreditation that they have. But, what if they dont teach kkw stuff, are you saying they should just hand out the cert anyway, despite the fact they know full well their students dont know the kkw stuff? If I was a kukkiwon student/teacher I would hope there arent people giving out kkw certs without teaching the material.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 24, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Daniel, you say-
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I believe that Glenn has addressed this several times in this thread.  Assuming that he/she is still calling what they teach taekwondo, then given that the Kukkiwon does not actually dictate what you teach, then if he/she is KKW certified at fourth dan or above, then they should do their students the courtesy of issuing a KKW first dan when the students test for first dan.

And I am speaking of students testing for their first dan in a dojang, not simply having it handed to them.



ralphmcpherson said:


> I am in complete agreeance that if someone has kukkiwon certification and teaches the kukkiwon curriculum then they owe it to their students to pass on the same accreditation that they have. But, what if they dont teach kkw stuff, are you saying they should just hand out the cert anyway, despite the fact they know full well their students dont know the kkw stuff? If I was a kukkiwon student/teacher I would hope there arent people giving out kkw certs without teaching the material.


Assuming that they still call their art taekwondo,  what part of the Kukkiwon curriculum are they no longer teaching?

Did they stop teaching kicks, punches, parries, blocks, stances?  Some?  All?  Or are they simply teaching a different set of forms and maybe sparring under a different rule set?

I'm willing to bet that they're still teaching kicks, punches, parries, blocks, and stances.  

If they are no longer teaching taekwondo, then they should issue the same certification that they hold in whatever art they _*do*_ teach.  If they hold no grades in this other art, whatever it may be, then I question what qualifications they have to teach it.

If he/she is teaching a recalibrated version of taekwondo *AND* holds KKW rank of fourth dan or higher, then there is no reason not to issue the grade.  Especially if they are billing their students for a first dan grading.  

If the gradings are free, then he/she can do whatever they feel like.  My gradings in both hapkido and kendo were not free.  But they are dojo dans because my former sensei decided to break off and start his own organizations.  I have no criticism of him wanting to be an independent, but really, he should have gone through the proper channels with regards to grading.

He could issue IHF certificates to his students but chooses not to.  Kendo would require that he have students graded for ikyu and above with FIK representatives on hand, as all ikyu (first kyu) and above gradings are organizational gradings.

I have no regrets about training with him and have no ill feelings towards him.  I also know that there were other people influencing his decisions in these areas.  Frankly, they did him a disservice.  

For the vast majority of his students, it is not much of an issue.  But as the only one of his students who has gone on to establish his own studio, the independent kendo grade is problematic.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 24, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I believe that Glenn has addressed this several times in this thread.  Assuming that he/she is still calling what they teach taekwondo, then given that the Kukkiwon does not actually dictate what you teach, then if he/she is KKW certified at fourth dan or above, then they should do their students the courtesy of issuing a KKW first dan when the students test for first dan.
> 
> And I am speaking of students testing for their first dan in a dojang, not simply having it handed to them.
> 
> ...


Well lets, for arguments sake, say they do different forms and spar under a different rulest. They are two pretty major differences. I cant speak on behalf of other clubs but both form and sparring make up a big part of the curriculum where I train, so I would think that they are big enough changes to warrant a different certification, but thats just my opinion. Basically, you are saying any school with the word "tkd" in their name owes it to their students to join the kukkiwon, which I just cant agree with. Shotokan and wing chun schools teach kicks, punches and parries, so should they too, give out kkw certification? For instance, you only have to watch a video of itf traing opposed to kukkiwon training and you see heaps of differences, but both are still "tkd".I actually think the forms an art uses and the way they spar is what distinguishes one art from another. I mean, almost all arts contain kicks, punches, parries, blocks and stances. At the bare minimum, I would think that to join an org you should at least be able to do their forms, but thats just my opinion because I would feel pretty silly waltzing into my local kkw dojang, showing them my kkw certificate, putting on my black belt and then have the instructor say "Hey Ralph, can you just take these two yellow belts down the back and teach them the second taegek and I have to reply "sorry, but I dont know any of the taegeks", then later in the class they line us up for sparring and I have to polietly ask the instructor "excuse me, can you explain the wtf sparring rules to me, I dont actually know them". What value is my cert?


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## puunui (Jan 25, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I believe that Glenn has addressed this several times in this thread.



I have explained it numerous times. If they don't understand at this point, they never will, mainly because they do not want to understand.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 25, 2012)

puunui said:


> I have explained it numerous times. If they don't understand at this point, they never will, mainly because they do not want to understand.


If I didnt want to understand I wouldnt keep asking the question. Perhaps if you answered the questions myself and others are asking rather than talking round in circles we would understand.


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