# Is it possible to"Americanize" TKD ?



## RCastillo (Mar 22, 2002)

As an inactive member of the ITF(3rd Dan), I wonder if it's possible to go that route without having to pay homage to Korea, it's language, and culture.

I enjoy TKD, and teaching, but would like to avoid the control they have over it's members, and exhorbitant testing fees that goes with it.

I understand that Jerry Beasely's organization, the AIKIA is such a group that I describe, though I know little of it.

At any rate, is it possible to do that, and still teach TKD?

I would appreciate any personal emails. My Thanks to you all.:asian:


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## kickyou (Mar 22, 2002)

Well since it is a "Korean"Martial Art I do not think that you can teach or learn it with out acknowledging its origin.But you can ignore those things that are offensive.I for example have stopped practicing Juche' for I find it to be a horrible example of what TKD is suppossed to be.I also believe it goes against the last 2 tenets."I shall be a champion of freedom  and justice" and "I will build a more peaceful world"


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## Klondike93 (Mar 23, 2002)

> I for example have stopped practicing Juche' for I find it to be a horrible example of what TKD is suppossed to be.I also believe it goes against the last 2 tenets."I shall be a champion of freedom and justice" and "I will build a more peaceful world"



Could you explain, I never had the chance to fully learn Juche so I don't understand your statement. Also, does this mean you now practice Ko-Dong? I did learn that form a long time ago and I liked alot.

:asian:


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## arnisador (Mar 23, 2002)

There is a similar thread going on in the General section.


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## tshadowchaser (Mar 23, 2002)

It has been a long time since I studied TKD, but I see names of forms today that I don't remember from back then. Of course my old instructor was just getting his black when he instructed me and still trying to learn the forms he was teaching.
Funny he now calls himslef Grandmaster,Wonder if he finnaly learned the forms?  
As for teaching what you know without paying homeage unless you need the organization for ranking just start teachng. I'm sure there must be a few groups out there that have a tkd based 
system. It may just take a little time to hook up with one. With all the TKD people who havestudied and been granted rank they all can't be still loyal to Korea. 
Shadow


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## RCastillo (Mar 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by kickyou _
> 
> *Well since it is a "Korean"Martial Art I do not think that you can teach or learn it with out acknowledging its origin.But you can ignore those things that are offensive.I for example have stopped practicing Juche' for I find it to be a horrible example of what TKD is suppossed to be.I also believe it goes against the last 2 tenets."I shall be a champion of freedom  and justice" and "I will build a more peaceful world" *




Yes, now that you mention it, some of this is contradictory. I seem to find that Nationalism is a big issue here. While I understand that spreading the art should be free, and open to all, I also have to question the "BIG" tie in with North Korea that the General has, especially since he was in the ROK army. Now that really confuses me.:asian:


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## kickyou (Mar 23, 2002)

I think the reason for his relationship with the North is because the South does not want him. I could be wrong but that is all I can think of.Unless it is a power issue and the North is of Course giving him Lots of money.I am sad to say that I think the teachings that I have followed for the last 17 years are all lies.Atleast from the General's perspective but I believe that Master Choi believes in all of the teachings and has decided to live by them.That is why I am following Master Choi.He is the perfect example of the last two tenets "I shall be a champion of Freedom and Justice" And "I shall build a more peaceful world"


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## RCastillo (Mar 23, 2002)

I agree with you, not only is it money, but long ago the South Korean govt really wanted to put thier stamp on his, and everyones elses work, and when you fight the govt, thiey have a long memory. Basically, he is in exile from his country.:asian:


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## kickyou (Mar 23, 2002)

Yes he is and now he is turning his back on the Country that gave him refuge.He wants to leave Canada and he wants to be buried in North Korea.It is sad how things have turned out.


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## Agrippa (Mar 24, 2002)

Mr Castillo,

Why don't you contact itf-choijunghwa.com and see if the new regime is more conducive to your way of thinking...?

Agrippa


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## kickyou (Mar 24, 2002)

Hello Agrippa welcome aboard.


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## RCastillo (Mar 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Agrippa _
> 
> *Mr Castillo,
> 
> ...



Yes, have been reading about it, but he controversy sure is hot right now. I understand that the new ITF people are called "Phoney." It seems like the new one will be much more open, and agreeable to work with. Thanks for your response!:asian:


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## kickyou (Mar 24, 2002)

The only reason that Master Choi is being called phony is because he will not bow down to the North Korean Government.The ITF that is based in Vienna is doing everything possible to undermine what Master Choi is trying to do which is run the ITF the way it is supposed to be run.

By the way I made a phone call to my local field office for the FBI today.They confirmed that they have information on the ITF based in Vienna.When I asked them if there was an active investigation going on the man on the phone got gruff with me and said I can not relay that information to you at this time.To me his denial is indeed confirmation that there is an active investigation going on.But you can make up your own mind.


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## Klondike93 (Mar 24, 2002)

I'm not sticking up for the ITF at all. but where's the proof?
I'd like to make my own conclusion.

:asian:


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## kickyou (Mar 24, 2002)

Then call your local field office for the FBI and ask them yourself.Be warned though they will ask you who you are and why do you want to know.


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## Rob_Broad (Mar 24, 2002)

This is a prime example of why Government and anything else should not mix, whether it be Martial Arts, religion, education or health care.  Yes they have their hands in everything and everything they try to control becomes buried in beuracry.


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## TLH3rdDan (Mar 25, 2002)

someone wanna fill me in on what has happened with the ITF??? also not familiar with the terms ko-dong and juche can someone explain them??? and why on earth is the FBI interested in the ITF especially the one in vienna??? assuming you mean austria.....


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## kickyou (Mar 25, 2002)

The reason the FBI is interested in the ITF based in Vienna is because it has been exposed that the ITF in Vienna is being run by the North Korean Government.


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## Drunken Master (Mar 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by kickyou _
> 
> *The reason the FBI is interested in the ITF based in Vienna is because it has been exposed that the ITF in Vienna is being run by the North Korean Government. *



I read in another forum that a student walked into a grading with a Korean Flag sewn onto his dobock.

Apparantly General Choi saw the patch and was not at all happy.  He said that Taekwon-Do is not a product of Korea.

This in a small way contradicts a previous post.  Does anyone have any further info or thoughts on this.


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## RCastillo (Mar 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Rob_Broad _
> 
> *This is a prime example of why Government and anything else should not mix, whether it be Martial Arts, religion, education or health care.  Yes they have their hands in everything and everything they try to control becomes buried in beuracry. *



You are so correct, and they should know better, as the GAO can't even keep up with it's own problems.:asian:


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## TLH3rdDan (Mar 25, 2002)

oook so north korea is running the itf in vienna... sorry dont really see that as being important unless the fbi is worried that a bunch of 9th dan tae kwon do stylists are going to come over and try to take over the country... thought they had more important things to focus on... ya know the whole 9/11 thing... just my opinion dont see a need to waste money investigating the ITF... and who cares if a student wears a korean flag on his uniform... every tae kwon do school ive ever walked into both wtf and itf have had korean flags hanging on the walls along with american flags the same for some japanese schools ive gone into... the only place i have not seen a flag representing the country of origin so far is in a chinese school... national politics has no place in martial arts...:soapbox:


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## WaterCircleHarmony (Apr 29, 2002)

Whoa!!

Governments running martial arts organizations!
FBI investigates TKD federation!

Can i just ask....bear with me here....Vienna is in Europe no??

So why is the FBI involved?



is general choi a part of the north korean government?? i thought that he was south korean??

things used to be so simple!


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## Ty K. Doe (Apr 29, 2002)

TKD has been Americanized to an extent during the early blood and guts era, back in the 60's.

Americans contributed to changes in both Karate and Taekwondo, primarily as a result of American tournament experience. In the early 1960s, fighters generally fought from a stationary position, using 80% hand techniques and 20% foot techniques. Kicks were usually stomach level or lower, and few fighters would kick off their lead leg. The standard kicks were front kicks or roundhouse kicks off the back leg. The counter reverse punch and the step-through lunge punch were the standard hand techniques. Open tournament competitors in the same period (1962-1964) were better kickers, but their hand techniques were primitive (Overhead Knife-hand strike, etc.) and they also fought from a stationary stance, with no footwork. Countertechniques and combinations were unknown. Kicks included roundhouses off both lead and trailing leg and spinning back kicks. Most of these kicks came from the Southwest (possibly due to Jhoon Rhee's influence there), as did kicks to the head and jumping side kicks. East Coast fighters introduced the jumping double front kick, and used the lead leg roundhouse more than other early stylists. West Coast fighters stuck to the older Japanese styles. In 1965, Mike Stone was released from the Army and won nine consecutive tournaments without being defeated, primarily using a lead leg roundhouse and double ridgehands. 

In the late 1960s, Chuck Norris became a champion by combining Korean kicks (including lead leg side kick) with Japanese hand techniques. He was also the first fighter to successfully introduce combination techniques. Joe Lewis also came to fame at this time by the use of the lead leg side kick and the crossing back kick, demonstrating the effectiveness of single technique specialization. Lewis also proved the effectiveness of a lead punch. As a result, lead techniques began to gain recognition, although they would not become widely popular until the 1970s. Footwork in this period became the standard back and forward movement still prevalent today. Later on, point fighters would establish the basis of American Kickboxing. After the WTF concentrated on the sport form of Taekwondo, Korean instructors began emphasizing competition rather than self-defense. As an example, touch blocks have long since replaced formal blocks in sparring.


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## Klondike93 (Apr 29, 2002)

And so American Freestyle Karate was born......



:asian:


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## Ty K. Doe (Apr 30, 2002)

I'm sorry, credit should be given where credit is due.  The information from my last post came from:

http://www.ituk.org.uk/


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## Quick Sand (Nov 16, 2002)

I know that thread hasn't been active in a long time but I'm new to the forum and was reading back through older threads. I think it's very possible to Americanize TKD because I'm in a style right now that basically did just that. It's called American Kang Duk Won Tae Kwon Do.

Our  Grandmaster was an American who trained in and recieved his Tae Kwon Do black belt in Korea in the late 1960's. He also had black belts in other Japanese and Okinawain styles of Martial Arts. When he returned to American he decided to incorporte techniques from the other styles into the Kang Duk Won style he studied in Korea. It's my understanding that they wanted to keep things purely traditional in Korea and didn't like incorporating techniques from other styles. I'm not sure exaclty how we separated but in the end my Grandmaster formed the AMERICAN Kang Duk Won style. We do not pay homeage to Korea although we do recognize it as an important part of our history.

Part of the main idea in my style is to continue to develop techniques and change techniques so that they work in everyday practical applications here in North America.


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## celtic bhoy (Nov 16, 2002)

ITF Taekwon Do at this time is what is stipulated in Gen.Choi's book. The Korean terminology is used so any student can train in any dojang in the world and follow instruction. If an american is mixing and matching moves and techniques, then I'm sorry but you can only call it American Freestyle.


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## Quick Sand (Nov 16, 2002)

Sorry, maybe I wasn't totally clear. I did not say that we are any form of ITF Tae Kwon Do. We are a totally seperate style called American Kang Duk Won Tae Kwon Do. It is still "the art of striking with the hands and feet" or however you wish to translate "Tae Kwon Do" and we did branch off of the original Korean style ot Kang Duk Won.


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## MichiganTKD (Mar 9, 2004)

Yes it is possible to "Americanize" Tae Kwon Do. The following are some of the ways I have seen it done:

1. Don't wear white uniforms. White uniforms are boring. America is the land of Hollywood and flash. Therefore colored uniforms are much more exciting.

2. Don't teach manners and etiquette. Those are quaint but outdated.

3. Don't teach forms. Forms are worthless in today's society. If you want to really practice martial arts, save the sissy stuff for wimps. Real men just fight and practice street defense.

4. Don't send any money to Korea. We don't give our hard earned money to those foreigners. Save it for Americans.

5. We don't need the Kukkywon to tell us our rank. I'll decide when I'm 7th Dan. Better yet, I'll let the United States Martial Arts Association certify me. They'll certify anybody!

Any questions?


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 9, 2004)

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> Yes it is possible to "Americanize" Tae Kwon Do. The following are some of the ways I have seen it done:
> 
> 1. Don't wear white uniforms. White uniforms are boring. America is the land of Hollywood and flash. Therefore colored uniforms are much more exciting.
> 
> ...


 
Are these your opinions as well?


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## Disco (Mar 9, 2004)

On the subject of "Americanization", I have 2 words...... ED PARKER........


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## glad2bhere (Mar 9, 2004)

I guess I need an operational definition of the term "Americanize". What exactly do we mean when this term is used? So far I am hearing that people would like to cherry-pick what techniques they will do and what techniques that they won't. So far I am hearing that people would like to choose what philosophical bent they will engage with and that which they won't. Does "Americanize" mean that you get to pick and choose what it is that you will and won't do--- like, if I have a REAL good reason?

I'm an old fart. What if I don't want to do high kicks? What if I decide that I want to train in Hapkido but don't want to take breakfalls or do air-rolls? What if I want to use my hands more because I have a boxing background and that gives me an edge in competition? 

Lets take it a step farther. When I am all done with my picking and choosing and have a conglomeration that fits me to a tee, do I still call it TAEKWONDO? What if I have taken Aikido and added some low kicks. Can I now tell everyone that I teach Sims-Do Hapkido? 

I may be wrong but growing up in the States has taught me that Americans are Past-Masters at wanting what they want, when they want it, 'cuz they want it. Deferred gratification is often considered a sign of stupidity, naivete', or self-abuse. All the same I understood that one of the prime purposes of engaging in KMA is to sublimate ones baser impulses and that often means doing something that is unpleasant, strange or inexplicable. Thoughts?  FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## MichiganTKD (Mar 9, 2004)

Good point. One of the trademarks of "American" martial arts is Instructors who pick and choose different techniques from various styles, cherry picking, and call it a new martial art. Either because they didn't get very high in one style and are making up for by adding from different styles, or they got kicked out/quit a former organization and decide to teach on their own. Why? Money and ego.This is why you have these pseudostyles that combine Tae Kwon Do/Karate/Hapkido/Brazilian Jujitsiu etc. into one conglomeration. The Instructors tend to be low level black belts from no name organizations who think they can make money from other low level black belts who are dissatisfied with their organization. If you notice, many of these "Masters" offer rank and certification to anyone regardless of style. A true Instructor with legitimate credentials would never do that.
One more thing. Based on the ads I've seen for these pseudostyles, creating your own style and calling yourself Headmaster or Soke apparently entitles you to call yourself 10th Dan.


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## RCastillo (Mar 9, 2004)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> I guess I need an operational definition of the term "Americanize". What exactly do we mean when this term is used? So far I am hearing that people would like to cherry-pick what techniques they will do and what techniques that they won't. So far I am hearing that people would like to choose what philosophical bent they will engage with and that which they won't. Does "Americanize" mean that you get to pick and choose what it is that you will and won't do--- like, if I have a REAL good reason?
> 
> I'm an old fart. What if I don't want to do high kicks? What if I decide that I want to train in Hapkido but don't want to take breakfalls or do air-rolls? What if I want to use my hands more because I have a boxing background and that gives me an edge in competition?
> 
> ...



Well, since this was my question I posted, let me clarify. In class, many Korean terms/language is used, and alot of history/nationalism is put forth. I wonder about that, and I want to learn an art form, and while I respect it's history, I don't want that to be in the forefront all the time. I also feel the ettiquete doesn't have to be that strong all the time. I understand discipline, but not totally rigid all the time.

As far as the technique, one should follow the art, and simply do the best they can according to their ability. In essence, you should make TKD fit you, not the other way around. One must be an individual and follow what works for them best. Once, I was testing for 3rd Dan, and was told the self defense had to be purely TKD, so my gripe about that is that it is lacking, and needs more than that to make my self defense work for me, not just to please them. They don't beleive in "bastardizing" the art, but there is Hapkido within it's work anyway. In todays time, I don't know if you can keep it pure anymore, if one wants to be practical. :asian:


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## glad2bhere (Mar 9, 2004)

Dear R: 

I think MichiganTKD pretty much wrapped it up and put a bow on it, but I do want to say something about your comment from a bit different point of view. 

".......Well, since this was my question I posted, let me clarify. In class, many Korean terms/language is used, and alot of history/nationalism is put forth. I wonder about that, and I want to learn an art form, and while I respect it's history, I don't want that to be in the forefront all the time. I also feel the ettiquete doesn't have to be that strong all the time. I understand discipline, but not totally rigid all the time......" 

I thoroughly understand your point, but then, why take a Korean MA art? The Koreans have had various social and cultural features for centuries. Their "way of doing things" is just that, THEIR way of doing things. Personally I think the US could use one helluva lot more emphasis on ettiquette, a persons' responsibilities to his neighbor, ones' place in society and the morality of ones' actions in terms of the common good. For myself I get just a little tired of the GD whining and groaning. MA too hard? Go take up Baseball. I study and research Korean MA BECAUSE it comes from another culture and as such provides me with a different set of challenges founded in a different culture. Now, I WILL agree that the Koreans need to get their act together about how they tell a story. Everybody with a belly-button has their own self-serving take on Korean traditions, and its usually at someone elses expense. Got enough of that here in the States. 

".......As far as the technique, one should follow the art, and simply do the best they can according to their ability. In essence, you should make TKD fit you, not the other way around........" 

I teach my students that my job is to work my way OUT of a job. I am there to provide challenges plus coaching to help them become winners regarding those challenges. In time they should be able to pick out and master their OWN challenges and leave me behind as we all have done with ANY of the teachers in our lives. I mean, sometimes we go back to visit old teachers we have had, but none of us goes running back to the 3rd grade classroom every time we need to remember what 4 times 7 is, right?

One other thing to remember. Just because the guy at the head of the mat has an epicanthic fold in his eye doesn't mean he has the market cornered on wisdom. Not a few of the KMA teachers came to this country because they couldn't cut it in the "Old Country".  Consider how many people graduate as Phys Ed instructors in this country and then imagine what sort of person would emigrate to Korea because he couldn't find or hold a job here?  See my point? In Korea one binds with the teacher, not the art or organization. Thats why there never was anything but "kwans" (lit. "focus groups") until during and after the Japanese Occupation. No styles, or grandmasters, or organizations. If somebody finds a great teacher, stick with that guy. If the guy you have doesn't wind yer clock there are a helluva lot more where that guy came from.  FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## ThuNder_FoOt (Mar 9, 2004)

> _Posted by:_ *glad2bhere*
> 
> ".......As far as the technique, one should follow the art, and simply do the best they can according to their ability. In essence, you should make TKD fit you, not the other way around........"



I agree with this point.


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## MichiganTKD (Mar 10, 2004)

A good example I can use is the American Tae Kwon Do Association-ATA-before HU Lee's death. What Lee was good at, regardless of what you might think of the ATA, was making his Korean art a little more palatable to Americans, particularly Southerners. He was able to market Tae Kwon Do in a way that Southerners could relate to, while still keeping it Tae Kwon Do and Korean. He didn't change a bunch of things and call it "American-style Tae Kwon Do", because there is no such thing. It was traditional Tae Kwon Do marketed to a certain segment of the population. I'm not saying I agree with everything he did. I do think a lot of it got watered down to have mass appeal. But on certain levels he was successful. For example, if I want to learn German or Japanese or Korean there are grammatical rules and syntax that I must abide by, otherwise it's not German or Japanese. I can pretend it is, but it's not. If I don't like the rules, I can pick up a different language.


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## glad2bhere (Mar 10, 2004)

Dear MichiganTKD: 

There is also Joon Rhee who is often touted as the "father of American Taekwondo". Does anyone know how (if at all) his approach to TKD varies compared to other teaching approaches? Thoughts? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## MichiganTKD (Mar 11, 2004)

I am not a member of Jhoon Rhee's organization, so can't really speak for him. However, what I think he did was take the basic philosophy and moral foundation of Tae Kwon Do and teach it in a way that Americans could relate to. Again, I don't always agree with his tactics, but his approach seemed to work. For example, I think gold lame' uniforms are rather silly looking. But he also turned Tae Kwon Do into kind of a community activity and living civics and citizenship lesson-respect, loyalty, good citizenship etc. He was not as hard-core as some Instructors I've seen, but his approach works for him. 
He also didn't try to pass it off as American-style Tae Kwon Do. It was simply Tae Kwon Do tailored to Americans.


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## RCastillo (Mar 11, 2004)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> Dear R:
> 
> I think MichiganTKD pretty much wrapped it up and put a bow on it, but I do want to say something about your comment from a bit different point of view.
> 
> ...



I took TKD becuase there was no Kenpo here any more, so I got into it. I've since moved on back into Kenpo, but enjoy the TKD forms, and am inactive as far as the organization is concerned, and w/o that, I feel I wouldn't as gone as far as I have in Kenpo. I owe it alot of credit. :asian:


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## loki09789 (Mar 11, 2004)

What would an Americanized TKD or any martial art look like/sound like?  Are we just talking about replacing ethnic/foriegn terminology with English and replacing TKD customs and courtesies with American customs and courtesies?  Even changing the uniforms from Gi's and such to western work out cloths.... I am unclear about what Americanizing an Asian art really means.


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## MichiganTKD (Mar 11, 2004)

Unfortunately, this is exactly what some Instructors have done. In an effort to make their art more palatable to Americans, they strip it of everything that makes it Tae Kwon Do in the first place. There are some thing in Tae Kwon Do that are flexible: terminology( Korean or English), loose clothes versus traditional uniforms. However, many Instructors (Korean and American) go wayyyy too far in an attempt to de-Koreanize a Korean art. America did not invent Tae Kwon Do, and it is not our right to strip it of many of the things that make it what it is: A Korean-based martial art. If you de-Koreanize it, it is no longer Tae Kwon Do, just a set of kicks, punches, and blocks.
 French with an American accent is still French, because you are still using French grammatical rules, French syntax etc. Tae Kwon Do with an American accent (English commands, streetclothes to a certain extent) is still Tae Kwon Do, as long as the traditional techniques, etiquette, and customs are used. Tae Kwon Do in an American flag shaped dobok is not Tae Kwon Do. I'm not sure what it is. Tae Kwon Do with made up forms instead of traditional or accepted forms is not Tae Kwon Do.


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## Marginal (Mar 12, 2004)

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> Tae Kwon Do in an American flag shaped dobok is not Tae Kwon Do. I'm not sure what it is. Tae Kwon Do with made up forms instead of traditional or accepted forms is not Tae Kwon Do.


That really does sound ungainly. Bunch of people trying to fight in giant patriotic pillow cases... That just can't be condusive to proper kicking form at the very least.  :boing2:


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## glad2bhere (Mar 12, 2004)

And then there is the alternate point as well. What would it take to make TKD MORE Korean? I know. At first glance this statement must sound a bit strange, but have you ever considered just how much of both TKD and TSD owe their nature to Japanese rather than Korean traditions?  Couldn't we drop the belt rank system and use simple licensure or certification according to a Korean national standard? Couldn't we drop all this "master"/"grandmaster" crap and just have students and teachers? Maybe we would need to train in a dobok that was closer to a han-bok rather than the Japanese do-gi. Maybe we could take a second look at what Korean traditins looked like before the Japanese Occupation, or review technique execution in light of Chinese influences instead of always defaulting to Japanese interpretation?  Just some thoughts FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## ThuNder_FoOt (Mar 13, 2004)

Well,

I'm not sure if I agree with that side of the coin Bruce. Anything prior to the creation of Taekwondo, is just that. It can't be considered Taekwondo if it wasn't included in the original production of TKD. Of course, you would be giving it more culture... but that would be more culture than was originally founded in TKD.

And in reference to Americanization of TKD... I don't think it's possible. To strip away the Korean aspect, is to strip away Taekwondo itself. Back in my teaching days, I recieved mild complaints about the same thing. When I explained that learning TKD is more than just kicks and punches, and explained the reasoning behind the teaching of culture (it's actual essence)... most disregarded their resentment of it. Because to take away it's origin, is to take away it's history, it's reason for existence. And if parents/students couldn't understand that, they found the door. 
 :asian:


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## lifewise (Mar 21, 2004)

RCastillo said:
			
		

> Well, since this was my question I posted, let me clarify. In class, many Korean terms/language is used, and alot of history/nationalism is put forth. I wonder about that, and I want to learn an art form, and while I respect it's history, I don't want that to be in the forefront all the time. I also feel the ettiquete doesn't have to be that strong all the time. I understand discipline, but not totally rigid all the time.
> 
> As far as the technique, one should follow the art, and simply do the best they can according to their ability. In essence, you should make TKD fit you, not the other way around. One must be an individual and follow what works for them best. Once, I was testing for 3rd Dan, and was told the self defense had to be purely TKD, so my gripe about that is that it is lacking, and needs more than that to make my self defense work for me, not just to please them. They don't beleive in "bastardizing" the art, but there is Hapkido within it's work anyway. In todays time, I don't know if you can keep it pure anymore, if one wants to be practical. :asian:




Personally, I would like to see more TKD schools with no Korean terms/language used and very little of the history and nationalism put forth. I agree with Ric's comment " ... I want to learn an art form, and while I respect it's history, I don't want that to be in the forefront all the time."

The club where I originally studied TKD did just that. It was great, and by far one of the most enjoyable places I trained. From time to time, the instructors would discuss the history with us but it was not pushed. I appreciated this approach and found I was more interested in the art because of it. Ettiquette was alive and well in the club, but there were no Korean terms or language used. Don't misinterpret the removal of the history and Korean language as a removal of displine - THAT was always there.


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## hardheadjarhead (Mar 21, 2004)

lifewise said:
			
		

> Personally, I would like to see more TKD schools with no Korean terms/language used and very little of the history and nationalism put forth. I agree with Ric's comment " ... I want to learn an art form, and while I respect it's history, I don't want that to be in the forefront all the time."
> 
> The club where I originally studied TKD did just that. It was great, and by far one of the most enjoyable places I trained. From time to time, the instructors would discuss the history with us but it was not pushed. I appreciated this approach and found I was more interested in the art because of it. Ettiquette was alive and well in the club, but there were no Korean terms or language used. Don't misinterpret the removal of the history and Korean language as a removal of displine - THAT was always there.




The TKD master I studied under didn't use Korean terms.  He used English.  I never asked him why, but I got the sense he thought it was more practical to use the language of the realm.  Note that he was Korean....and to this day has lousy English.  

Different TKD associations use different Korean terms, and I've seen people get downright anal retentive about it.  Imagine using English and someone gets wrapped around the axle for you calling it a "round kick" instead of a "roundhouse kick".  It'd be silly.

Some Americans get so much into the culture of origin of their arts that they abandon their own roots, becoming hanophiles, sinophiles, and nippophiles.  It is embarrassing seeing Americans talk in Korean pidgin English, dress in traditional Korean garb (when the Koreans don't even do this), eat nothing but Korean food, and take Korean language courses.  

[Aside: I've also seen this with people practicing Japanese martial arts...less so with Chinese arts.  Some people are doing it with Brazilian jujitsu.  An instructor in this area can be heard coaching his students while talking in a Brazilio-English accent...and this guy was born and bred in Indiana.]

These people want to BE KOREAN (or insert group of choice here).  While there is nothing wrong with having an admiration for a culture, this goes into the realm of neurosis.  It isn't as uncommon as some of you might think.  When people lack a sense of identity, they'll attempt to adopt one.

When you shake hands with someone in the mall, do you place your hand on your forearm as the Koreans do?  How about if this person isn't involved with the martial arts...maybe its your attorney or realtor? That may be a sign you're slipping in that direction.

Korean instructors foster this at times (not all of them do, granted), demanding we get into the game and act like Koreans.  At times this goes beyond mere discipline or cultural sharing and becomes abusive...like making your students do knuckle push-ups in restaurants, or striking them in public.  I'm not making this up. 

Other examples come to mind, but if I write them down, I'll just get worked up.  It portends to be a beautiful day, and I don't want to ruin it.

Regards,


Steve


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## glad2bhere (Mar 21, 2004)

Dear Steve: 

I was all set to really tie into you over several of your comments, but the fact is that I can't. You're right! 

In my classes I start out my introductory comments at the beginning of the semester by telling the students that they didn't come to the class to learn Korean language, or adopt Korean lifestyles. My job is NOT to turn them into good lil' Koreans! They came to get a taste of Korean MA (specifically Hapkido) and thats what I teach them. I use English because it only makes learning easier, while using a Korean (or even bi-lingual approach) only makes a difficult art harder to learn. Now, I DO use Korean words now and again, and I certainly provide a background in the Korean historical context. But I will not use Korean language as there are far too many inconsistencies in spelling, tranliteration and specification. One mans' ahp chagi is not always that of another mans'. And this gets even worse when one is teaching various chokes, locks, pins and throws!

So I guess the question comes up, "how is this still traditional Hapkido?". I usually answer in three ways. 

1.) The art I teach is still traditional because the curriculum that I teach was organized and transmitted by Korean nationals and so is imbued in some way with what they consider important. True I use an academic rather than Confucian approach but the content is still the same albeit rearranged. 

2.) The philosophy that under-pins the art is still Korean in the form of the O-Gae or "Five Tenents". True we don't use the old version (#4 "Perform a just kill.") but the modern interpretation still speaks to patriotism, respect for parents and loyalty to friends and I don't see that going out of style anytime soon. 

3.) The goal is still to produce warriors. By this I don't mean just people who can fight (those are just "fighters") but people who are willing to become involved in a conflict and resolve it according to a code that recognizes some higher good. This may or may not involve dumping someone on the a$$. In our modern world it usually more often involves sticking up for something or someone who is worthy of your best efforts. 

BTW: In closing I also agree with your comments about the "boot camp" approach. Life is hard enough all by itself with some idiot collecting tuition each month just to make it harder. My students, at their core, want to know how to come out in Life as winners, and I have never seen where tearing people down has ever served this purpose. Now true, the Marines and Rangers and Special Forces would probably argue the point but then their missions are just a tad different from those of the neighborhood TKD school, yes?  Nice Job! 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce 





			
				hardheadjarhead said:
			
		

> The TKD master I studied under didn't use Korean terms.  He used English.  I never asked him why, but I got the sense he thought it was more practical to use the language of the realm.  Note that he was Korean....and to this day has lousy English.
> 
> Different TKD associations use different Korean terms, and I've seen people get downright anal retentive about it.  Imagine using English and someone gets wrapped around the axle for you calling it a "round kick" instead of a "roundhouse kick".  It'd be silly.
> 
> ...


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## MichiganTKD (Mar 22, 2004)

It also important to separate the manners we use with fellow students and Instructors within Tae Kwon Do, and the manners we use outside of class. For example, it is perfectly acceptable to place the hand under the elbow when bowing to a fellow Instructor or BB while in class or at a TKD function. It is unnecessary to do this while in public, or to a non-practitioner, because now we are not in a class environment. I wouldn't even bow to a fellow Master in public, because of the same reason. A simple handshake and nod of the head will do. Likewise, I don't really expect to be addresed as Master_____ while in public, Mr____ or Sir will do. If they want to that's fine. In other words, in public, away from the Tae Kwon Do environment, it is okay to use Western manners. I certainly don't expect students to wear Korean clothes-I don't. If they have a taste for Korean food, that's fine. I like bulgagi myself. 
 Students who feel that they have to adapt this total Korean culture package are missing the point. It is perfectly fine to adapt some aspects of Korean culture in class (terminology, philosophy, uniforms, some history), but you don't have to be totally into Korea to do it. Reminds of the scene from "Last Dragon" where Bruce Leroy walked around wearing Chinese coolie clothes and hat. Even his Chinese instructor thought he was crazy!


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## glad2bhere (Mar 22, 2004)

Dear Michigan TKD: 

I'm right there with you. In fact, I would take it a step farther. I would rather see less posturing and dress-up, even in the class, if it would mean that students would carry the deportment farther outside of class. For instance, I would probably pass in requiring uniforms, if it would mean that students would not be such slaves to whatever current fashion trend was buzzing through their school. In this fashion, I would settle for a bit less formality on the mat if I knew for a fact that students were being a bit more respectful to others out in the community. I have seen cases where kids will be solemn and soulful reciting the O-Gae and then turn right around and mouth-off to their parents even before they leave the school. That crap wouldn't go for seven seconds in my class. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## lifewise (Mar 22, 2004)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> Dear Michigan TKD:
> 
> I'm right there with you. In fact, I would take it a step farther. I would rather see less posturing and dress-up, even in the class, if it would mean that students would carry the deportment farther outside of class. For instance, I would probably pass in requiring uniforms, if it would mean that students would not be such slaves to whatever current fashion trend was buzzing through their school. In this fashion, I would settle for a bit less formality on the mat if I knew for a fact that students were being a bit more respectful to others out in the community. I have seen cases where kids will be solemn and soulful reciting the O-Gae and then turn right around and mouth-off to their parents even before they leave the school. That crap wouldn't go for seven seconds in my class. FWIW.
> 
> ...



I have witnessed some schools where there is little to no formality. Tread carefully.


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## hardheadjarhead (Mar 22, 2004)

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> Students who feel that they have to adapt this total Korean culture package are missing the point. It is perfectly fine to adapt some aspects of Korean culture in class (terminology, philosophy, uniforms, some history), but you don't have to be totally into Korea to do it. Reminds of the scene from "Last Dragon" where Bruce Leroy walked around wearing Chinese coolie clothes and hat. Even his Chinese instructor thought he was crazy!



That's one of the things I loved about that movie...partly because I knew people like that.  

Such behavior is very, very adolescent when you think about it.  Middle school students are quick to model those they think are cool.  Many try and walk, talk, and mimic the expressions and mannerisms of those they admire. Its an attempt at acquiring an identity...and with the martial arts as we've described it, its the same.  People require an identity, a sense of centeredness.  They look to the martial arts for that...and it can become woefully dysfunctional.

I like bulgolgi, too.  I also like miruchi and kim chee.

But I don't eat my popcorn with chopsticks.


Regards,


Steve


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## Mithios (Mar 22, 2004)

Mr.Sims,    What is the old version of the five tenet's. My brain is on vacation !          Mithios


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## MichiganTKD (Mar 22, 2004)

Ironically, one of our Senior Instructors, who is white, belongs to a Korean church in his area. He also got engaged to a Chinese girl when we went to China a couple of years ago. Our Grandmaster has questioned his need to feel like to he has to be totally into Korean and oriental culture. He told us that a white man joining a Korean church would be no different than a white guy joining a black church-there will be a certain amount of resentment bred. Why does he feel the need to join "our" church. This is a church for Koreans. Likewise, the Grandmaster felt that he was trying to demonstrate his love of oriental culture to an extreme. He just didn't see the point. Yeah, he is free to marry who he wants and join whatever church he wants. But to join a Korean church or marry a Chinese girl to show how much into Oriental culture you are seems a bit absurd. The sad thing is that this girl is about 25 years younger than he is. She is physically in her prime and he ain't getting any younger. When she's 35-40 and at her sexual peak, he's going to be an old man in a retirement home. Better start buying the ginseng supplements now!


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## hardheadjarhead (Mar 23, 2004)

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> Ironically, one of our Senior Instructors, who is white, belongs to a Korean church in his area. He also got engaged to a Chinese girl when we went to China a couple of years ago. Our Grandmaster has questioned his need to feel like to he has to be totally into Korean and oriental culture. He told us that a white man joining a Korean church would be no different than a white guy joining a black church-there will be a certain amount of resentment bred. Why does he feel the need to join "our" church. This is a church for Koreans. Likewise, the Grandmaster felt that he was trying to demonstrate his love of oriental culture to an extreme. He just didn't see the point. Yeah, he is free to marry who he wants and join whatever church he wants. But to join a Korean church or marry a Chinese girl to show how much into Oriental culture you are seems a bit absurd. The sad thing is that this girl is about 25 years younger than he is. She is physically in her prime and he ain't getting any younger. When she's 35-40 and at her sexual peak, he's going to be an old man in a retirement home. Better start buying the ginseng supplements now!



I recall reading an article some years back where an American Japanese karate stylist was talking about the same problem.  One of the Japanese instructors over him essentially said it was useless for Americans to attempt to adopt the trappings of Japanese culture, as nothing the Americans could do would make them any less white.  Yet another time I read where Peter Urban was told by a Japanese karate master that no white man could ever achieve enlightenment.

This is a starkly racist attitude, but one that isn't so very uncommon.  I've seen Koreans condescend towards Americans insofar as Tae Kwon Do.  Remember in 1988 when Arlene Limas won at the Olympics?  They didn't have the American national Anthem cued...supposedly because it was inconceivable that we would win.  At a more local level I've seen this as well.  

Not so O.T. when you tie it in with the sycophantic behavior we we've been talking about.  An American might attempt to become a "Bruce Leroy" by adopting Asian mannerisms, but he'll never be Asian.  We all, Asian and American alike, are aware of that.  The reverse, however, is not true.  Asians are much more easily assimilated into our culture.

As far as the old guy and the young Chinese girl...hey, I'm 47.  Let the guy live his dream.  There's always Viagra and Cialis.   I've heard those work wonderfully.  Not that I'd KNOW, as I've never taken either one of them...and I never will again.  I swear.


Regards,


Steve


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## Marginal (Mar 24, 2004)

www.24fightingchickens.com has a lot to say on the subject of trying to be too much of the culture that spawned your respective art etc. Personally, I tend to view people trying really hard tomake their art as Korean, Japanese etc as possible in the same light I'd view Germans who gather to live like Native Americans... Teepees in Germany. Or the British Airlines guy who greets people with an affected, "Howdy!". They tend to pick out elements of a culture and grossly distort them.


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## terryl965 (Jan 11, 2008)

RCastillo said:


> As an inactive member of the ITF(3rd Dan), I wonder if it's possible to go that route without having to pay homage to Korea, it's language, and culture.
> 
> I enjoy TKD, and teaching, but would like to avoid the control they have over it's members, and exhorbitant testing fees that goes with it.
> 
> ...


 
This I find to be an interesting wuestion can *TKD be Americanize without having to pay homage to Korea.*

I would say no it has to have some type of Korean backing to be TKD what is everyong else thoughts on this?


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## dancingalone (Jan 11, 2008)

> I would say no it has to have some type of Korean backing to be TKD what is everyong else thoughts on this?



Why is that the case, Terry?  Can not a western grandmaster have equal (if not more) knowledge of TKD to share with his students?  Certainly, the cultural missteps are gone if your root teacher shares the same background you do.

There are many TKD and TSD organizations that are headed by Americans.  Are they any for the worse because they don't have a Korean at the top of the food chain?


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## Kacey (Jan 11, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> This I find to be an interesting wuestion can *TKD be Americanize without having to pay homage to Korea.*
> 
> I would say no it has to have some type of Korean backing to be TKD what is everyong else thoughts on this?



Korean basis?  Certainly.  Korean backing?  I don't see why it would _have _to.  Or perhaps I'm not understanding what you mean by Korean backing?  Do you mean ties to Korea?  To Korean nationals?  To Korean history?  Any or all of the previous?  Something else?  And to what extent?


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## terryl965 (Jan 11, 2008)

What I mean is ties to Korea, If they where ties than it might as well be Karate. I do not mean we have to have a Korean Master or GM but the hutory has to dictate where it came from and so on and so on. Just Like Korean TKD has a Shotokon backing with them forever.


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## terryl965 (Jan 11, 2008)

dancingalone said:


> Why is that the case, Terry? Can not a western grandmaster have equal (if not more) knowledge of TKD to share with his students? Certainly, the cultural missteps are gone if your root teacher shares the same background you do.
> 
> There are many TKD and TSD organizations that are headed by Americans. Are they any for the worse because they don't have a Korean at the top of the food chain?


 
Yes and we have some great ones like GM Kurban, GM Pelligini, GM Sells just to mention a few, in that case threw me in the mix since I have been doing this for Twenty five years. And I'm certainly an American. See the above post for reference.


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## SageGhost83 (Jan 12, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> This I find to be an interesting wuestion can *TKD be Americanize without having to pay homage to Korea.*


 
Well, look at it this way - TKD is shotokan that was koreanized and it no longer pays homage to Japanese karate, yet it is still considered legitimate. I don't see why there can't be American TKD as a purely american thing with a western flavor a la American kenpo. Korea didn't "invent" the style itself, so how can it be called "theirs" and why should anybody have to pay homage to Korea, or any other nation for that matter, when practicing a martial art? I mean, does anybody have to honor the west and take up Christian values to learn western boxing or western wrestling? I mean seriously.....When will the cultural/ego masturbation end? The techniques and principles belong to *everybody*, not just Korea. If you want to Americanize something, then yes, you most certainly can. Nobody has a monopoly on the martial arts. Saying that you can't Americanize it is like saying that General Choi couldn't Koreanize the Japanese Shotokan that he learned while in Japan. He is no better than anyone of us, and Korea is no more important or entitled to anything than any other country. Now go personalize your style and do what works best for you!


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## exile (Jan 12, 2008)

SageGhost83 said:


> The techniques and principles belong to *everybody*, not just Korea.



I think this is the core point at issue. Things don't work because of national or cultural identity, they work because of the way the world itself works. If you extract the gist of a skill set, and adapt it to your own needs and applications, you've made it your own, but the basic foundations are the same. And it's true: the martial arts are a brilliant example of how the same principles and techniques have been continually re-incorporated into the fighting systems of different countriesbecause they _work_.


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## IcemanSK (Jan 12, 2008)

Korean are certainly adept at assimilating things they like into their culture. But so are Americans. 

My first instructor, a Korean man, taught us a more "Koreanized" version of TKD in some respects (bowing to both flags as a small example) but taught almost all techniques in English. I know some American instructors who only have a US flag in the dojang ("because we're in the US") but insist on teaching Korean terminology, as well. 

Heck, we've got doboks made to look like the US flag (few other nationalities have that) & rank stripes on our belts (so everyone knows our specfic rank). XMA is a western creation that the Koreans have seemed to have adopted.

These are just a few small examples of how Westerners (Americans specifically) have Americanized TKD. We make it "BIGGER" & more garrish. (Just like Christmas time:supcool


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## Kacey (Jan 12, 2008)

IcemanSK said:


> Korean are certainly adept at assimilating things they like into their culture. But so are Americans.


True.  All cultures think that they are the _best_ culture - so anything they find that is better from another culture something becomes assimilated.



IcemanSK said:


> My first instructor, a Korean man, taught us a more "Koreanized" version of TKD in some respects (bowing to both flags as a small example) but taught almost all techniques in English.



GM Lang tells stories about his first instructor, who was Korean and spoke heavily accented English.  His demonstrations were awesome - but understanding was difficult because he was so hard to understand verbally.  Those of us who learned from people who speak English clearly have no real idea how hard it was for those who learned from people who spoke unclearly.



IcemanSK said:


> I know some American instructors who only have a US flag in the dojang ("because we're in the US") but insist on teaching Korean terminology, as well.



As far as the flags go, we only bow to an American flag; we don't even have a Korean flag.  But it's not _quite _"because we're in the US" - it's because we're not Korean.  We do, however, use Korean terminology, for several reasons.  One, it is to respect the history of the art.  Two, it is because understanding the differences in terminology helps to understand the evolution of the art; for example, we have a block we call "wedging block", but the word "wedging" does not exist in Korean in the form we use it - the actual word means something more like "spreading", which gives a different interpretation to the movement.  Three, for students who participate in international competition, a working knowledge of Korean terminology used in the dojang allows them to participate without needing an interpreter, and provides a common ground for all participants who share that terminology.



IcemanSK said:


> Heck, we've got doboks made to look like the US flag (few other nationalities have that) & rank stripes on our belts (so everyone knows our specfic rank).



I alway thought the doboks made out of US flags looked pretty hokey, myself.

As far as having rank stripes on my belt - I wear the belt my sahbum gave me.  As the number of participants grows, it's not possible to know everyone who could show up at an event.  Having rank stripes on one's belt, just like having different color belts for gup ranks, helps the instructor(s) to have some idea of who knows what.



IcemanSK said:


> XMA is a western creation that the Koreans have seemed to have adopted.



Can't really disagree with that. 



IcemanSK said:


> These are just a few small examples of how Westerners (Americans specifically) have Americanized TKD. We make it "BIGGER" & more garrish. (Just like Christmas time:supcool



Well... that's a much bigger issue than this thread can hold, I think!  After all, in America, bigger is better - at least, most people think so!  But that is, I think, just part of thinking our own culture is the best - even when our noses get rubbed in the fact that we're not best at everything (sacrilege though it may be to say it).

Many things are based more on perspective than anything else, and one person's perspective will always be different than another's, because each person's experiences are different.


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## Sukerkin (Jan 12, 2008)

I hope it's not an intrusion for a non-practitioner to stick his oar in and my prior apologies because this is not entirely on-topic.

To not take 'on board' and respect the arts 'host' country and it's history is to lose something important from the art.  

It might not make any difference at first to the sheer mechanics of learning how to kick and punch but as time and training accrues the lack of the social element can undermine the attempt to learn the subtleties of an art.

From a personal example, I'm learning Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu iaido.  On a purely pragmatic footing, what possible use is it for me to have an understanding of where my art came from?  

In the early years, if I had ignored the Japanese roots of MJER it would probably not have made much difference to my Seiza no Bu or Batto Ho kata, as simple rote copying without understanding can carry you along the road aways.  As you develop tho', the 'Why?' as well as the 'What?' comes to have an impact on the physical movements you perform.  

Why do you put the left hand on the floor first when executing a kneeling bow?  So that your right (drawing) hand is still ready if anything 'untoward' happens.  Why, when you get more fully into the bow, is it not proper to fully flatten your hands on the floor?  Because having the inner edge 'triangle' in the middle slightly raised acts as a cushion so you don't get snot on your hosts floor ... and also because it acts as a shock absorber if someone tries to smack your head down in a sneaky Ningerz-stylee assault .  

Likewise, when sitting in seiza, it is considered slothful and ill-mannered (in some cases 'womanly' and non-martial too) to cross your feet with the left over the right.  Why?  Because the first step you make in a nukitsuke cut is done with the right foot and trapping it under the left will slow your draw.

These are cases where what was done because it was practical became good manners over time but if you don't know the background and just ape the motions then you never develop as deep an understanding of the movements and the thought processes that go with them.

Continuing the vein, without knowing what Japanese architecture and clothing is like, many of the kata in iai will make no sense to you (or at least some elements of them will not).  Low ceilings and gate lintles, full sleeves and long 'trains' on kimonoes, the facts that most houses are raised on stilts and corridors are very narrow ... all these have a direct impact on sword techniques.

So without a committed knowledge of the background to your art what you learn is not fully _that_ art and the tiny gaps in understanding caused by seemingly irrelevant details prevent you from fully developing.

Of course, you can train without such homage to the host country/society and will probably do just fine but you'll always be missing that last 1%.


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## howard (Jan 12, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> Yes and we have some great ones like... *GM Pelligini*, ...


Terry, you will get a _lot_ of justifiable disagreement from traditional Hapkido people about him. It's a bit of a long story.


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## terryl965 (Jan 12, 2008)

howard said:


> Terry, you will get a _lot_ of justifiable disagreement from traditional Hapkido people about him. It's a bit of a long story.


 
Howard you are right some like him some don't. I'm not associated with him but he seem OK.


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## IcemanSK (Jan 12, 2008)

Kacey said:


> True. All cultures think that they are the _best_ culture - so anything they find that is better from another culture something becomes assimilated.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
*I agree that perspective has a lot to do with it. It's not always easy to find those lines. TKD is Korean. We can't pretend that it's not. But I've met folks with the last name of Smith who live there lives as if it was Kim & I've met high ranking TKD folks who say the most hateful things about the Korean people in general. I find both extremes quite odd.*


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## SageGhost83 (Jan 12, 2008)

Sukerkin said:


> These are cases where what was done because it was practical became good manners over time but if you don't know the background and just ape the motions then you never develop as deep an understanding of the movements and the thought processes that go with them.


 
They became good manners because somewhere along the way, somebody thought that it would be a good idea to turn a purely military martial art into a spiritual and cultural pursuit. The Jutsu became the Do and inherited a lot of extra, unnecessary baggage along the way, thus leading to certain things becoming "good manners" as opposed to practical techniques. Had they avoided doing such things in the first place and just taught the art for what it was originally meant to be taught for, then such things would be a non-issue. Adding the unnecessary cultural components is what leads to the confusion in the first place. If a certain technique is meant to be used a certain way in a certain situation, then simply teach the student the how and why of the technique from the beginning. No reason to beat around the bush or add unnecessary fluff to it. You shouldn't be aping anything, if you have a good teacher who knows what they are doing, then they will tell you why you are doing the movements and they will teach you the purpose and principles behind the techniques, not just empty movements/techniques. There is nothing wrong with learning the original context in which the techniques were used, but keep in mind that you don't live in that time period under those circumstances, so the way *you* apply the techniques is automatically going to be different, unless you are posting from a computer in medieval japan :lol:. Btw, MSJ is awesome, I would like to practice it myself. Those swords get pretty expensive, though.


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## SageGhost83 (Jan 12, 2008)

IcemanSK said:


> *I agree that perspective has a lot to do with it. It's not always easy to find those lines. TKD is Korean. We can't pretend that it's not. But I've met folks with the last name of Smith who live there lives as if it was Kim & I've met high ranking TKD folks who say the most hateful things about the Korean people in general. I find both extremes quite odd.*


 
I'll second that. It comes down to how you view the arts and what your purpose is for practicing them. TKD is Korean because its founders took Japanese karate and Koreanized it, similar to how the OP was talking about Americanizing TKD, which is why I answered "yes". We did it with kenpo, so why not TKD? I respect the fact that some people really love Korean culture and wish to pay homage to Korea. If that is their thing, then no problem, they can have at it. However, I don't think that it would make what you are doing illegitimate if it is not affiliated with a particular country or culture, either it works for you or it doesn't work for you, the rest is superficial. Isn't the goal to eventually make the style "your own" anyways?


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## Sukerkin (Jan 12, 2008)

Hi *Sage*

I suspect that we have fairly divergent views on this issue and it possibly comes down to the base fact that in years gone by, for my sins, I was a historian and museum curator.  

For me, to disassociate the cultural baggage from a martial art is to ditch one of the things that makes that art worth learning.  So, tho' my PC may not be performing it's MFLOPS in a medieval timeframe, when I'm practising my Iai that is exactly where I am.

Other than for 'anti-burgular' events and it's development of zanshin and seme, the JSA has no practical value for self-defence (apart, perhaps, from the implicit moves that such empty handed arts as aikido and karate took from the sword arts).  They are a product of their time and not to pay attention to where they came from is to lose a certain amount from the experience of learning them.

Spirituality was part and parcel of learning the 'Samurai' arts, for if you did not die on the battlefield then eventually you had to 'retire' to something else.  For many, that something 'else' was a religious retreat.  No art, regardless of where it came from is entirely pragmatic, they are always influenced by the cultural environment from which they spring forth.  

The so-called Bushido Code had nothing to do with the roots of these arts, it came centuries later.  The etiquette and morality bound within the sword arts is inherent as it pervaded them from the culture of which they are a part.  That affects the techniques themselves and _not_ giving them proper place within the training regimen leaves something behind which, in my not-so-humble opinion, deserves to be retained.  

The Itomagi kata, for example, are open to a duality of interpretation depending on how you place them in the cultural framework.  They are either assassination techniques or a last-ditch defence against underhanded assault during the 'leave taking' ceremonies between people in the same social circle.  Without cultural context they are meaningless.

In Ryu arts this is not even a subject for discussion but I do accept that in the wider field of Martial Arts as an area of human endeavour it is debatable as to whether it is 'useful' or not.  I, clearly, feel that it is but that does not make me right.


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## SageGhost83 (Jan 12, 2008)

Hey, no problem. I understand, and I was definitely not trying to offend. If you are in it for the culture, then yes, those things are of paramount importance, so go for it. I deeply respect the Koryu, and I understand the role that culture and history play within them. I guess that we do have two different viewpoints. I choose to look at the science and principles behind things, those elements based in science that are transferrable between countries and cultures and are not reliant upon a specific country or culture for the successful performance of a method. I guess that I am more of a martial scientist than a martial artist, if that even makes sense. With this viewpoint, you can see how I would answer "yes" to the OP. Different people practice for different reasons, and they are all equally valid, IMHO. 

You said: "I, clearly, feel that it is but that does not make me right."
I say: "Neither does it make you wrong. You practice for spiritual/cultural reasons, therefore, it is useful for you. So I would argue that you *are* right, given the purpose for this particular practice.

As for Taekdwondo:
If something is taught openly and logically, and if the purpose is explained from the beginning, then you will know what the technique is intended for without having to touch on the cultural part. Why does the tech work? If we learn the science behind why it works, and we can make it work repeatedly irregardless of which country or culture we are from, then why do we need the cultural part to begin with? Couldn't we just take the techniques and principles and practice them without a foreign culture or within the context of our own cultures, which is what "americanizing taekwondo" would basically amount to?


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## Sukerkin (Jan 12, 2008)

SageGhost83 said:


> I guess that I am more of a martial scientist than a martial artist, if that even makes sense. With this viewpoint, you can see how I would answer "yes" to the OP. Different people practice for different reasons, and they are all equally valid, IMHO.


 
I think that that is a very well brought forward distinction there, *Sage*.  

I love your turn of phrase - "Martial Scientist" is a wonderfully precise way of stating clearly that you are interested in how things work and where they can be applied, whilst who thought of it first is not relevant to yourself because they were from elsewhen and elsewhere.


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## exile (Jan 12, 2008)

SageGhost83 said:


> As for Taekdwondo:
> If something is taught openly and logically, and if the purpose is explained from the beginning, then you will know what the technique is intended for without having to touch on the cultural part. Why does the tech work? If we learn the science behind why it works, and we can make it work repeatedly irregardless of which country or culture we are from, then why do we need the cultural part to begin with? Couldn't we just take the techniques and principles and practice them without a foreign culture or within the context of our own cultures, which is what "americanizing taekwondo" would basically amount to?



This is basically my approach to things as well. The art is effective because of the way the world is structured; no matter what culture you're from or what language you speak, the structure will stand up if it satisfies the relevant mechanical principles and will fall down if it doesn't. If, on the other hand, you want to know what kind of decorative treatment to give the buildingis it a ziggurat, a pagoda or a Gothic cathedralthen you'd better understand the culture, and its æsthetic rules, to the core. 

I personally am more interested in what is common across particular cultural expressions, and in the MAs, that means what the karate-based arts, the CMAs, and many other combat systems have in commontheir common basis in human biomechanics. But both the engineer's and architectural artist's points of view are valid in their own domain of creative activity. The important thing is not to confuse one with the other.


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## terryl965 (Jan 12, 2008)

exile said:


> This is basically my approach to things as well. The art is effective because of the way the world is structured; no matter what culture you're from or what language you speak, the structure will stand up if it satisfies the relevant mechanical principles and will fall down if it doesn't. If, on the other hand, you want to know what kind of decorative treatment to give the buildingis it a ziggurat, a pagoda or a Gothic cathedralthen you'd better understand the culture, and its æsthetic rules, to the core.
> 
> I personally am more interested in what is common across particular cultural expressions, and in the MAs, that means what the karate-based arts, the CMAs, and many other combat systems have in commontheir common basis in human biomechanics. But both the engineer's and architectural artist's points of view are valid in their own domain of creative activity. The important thing is not to confuse one with the other.


 

very nicely put exile


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## SageGhost83 (Jan 12, 2008)

Sukerkin said:


> I think that that is a very well brought forward distinction there, *Sage*.
> 
> I love your turn of phrase - "Martial Scientist" is a wonderfully precise way of stating clearly that you are interested in how things work and where they can be applied, whilst who thought of it first is not relevant to yourself because they were from elsewhen and elsewhere.


 
Thanks, my friend. You are in Staffordshire? OMG, please tell me that you are kidding...because I am in *Stafford*, VA! That is crazy! I really appreciate the fact that even though you are not in Taekwondo you are willing to offer a well articulated opinion on the subject matter :asian:.


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## Sukerkin (Jan 13, 2008)

I thought for a second there that you meant you were in our county-town of Stafford (which is only eight miles up the road from where I live) ... then I noted your location in the banner line and saw the *VA* in your post and calmed back down again .  

There seem to be more than a few 'exported' English placenames around the world - I've heard of Paris (Texas), Birmingham (Alabama) and Liverpool (New South Wales) for example.

Anyhow, I'm in danger of stepping over the precipice of off-topic'ness so I'll hush myself - I just wanted to return the compliment with regard to well thought out and articulate posting :thumbs up:.


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## YoungMan (Jan 14, 2008)

I just don't think it's possible to truly "Americanize" Tae Kwon Do away from its Korean roots. It is perfectly acceptable to add things that Americans can relate to (English terms, counting, handshakes when appropriate); my Instructor certainly did. Even as a Korean, he recognized you must make certain concessions in the Art to make it palatable to Americans.
But as far as bowing, philosophy, flags, and culture, those all stayed. Tae Kwon Do is a product of Korean culture and history, and those must be included if the Art is to have any meaning.
For example, we bow, but explain why we bow. We use both flags as a sign of respect to the host country as well as respecting where TKD originated.
But to remove the culture, philosophy, etiquette, and background from TKD is to remove a great deal of what makes it what it is. I just can't see that. Otherwise, it just becomes a set of techniques.


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## exile (Jan 14, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> I just don't think it's possible to truly "Americanize" Tae Kwon Do away from its Korean roots. It is perfectly acceptable to add things that Americans can relate to (English terms, counting, handshakes when appropriate); my Instructor certainly did. Even as a Korean, he recognized you must make certain concessions in the Art to make it palatable to Americans.
> But as far as bowing, philosophy, flags, and culture, those all stayed. Tae Kwon Do is a product of Korean culture and history, and those must be included if the Art is to have any meaning.
> For example, we bow, but explain why we bow. We use both flags as a sign of respect to the host country as well as respecting where TKD originated.
> But to remove the culture, philosophy, etiquette, and background from TKD is to remove a great deal of what makes it what it is. I just can't see that. *Otherwise, it just becomes a set of techniques.*



What is wrong with the perspective that a set of techniques is _exactly_ what TKD is, so far as the American practitioners are concerned?

The Okinawans recognized the role of Chinese MAs in the formation of linear karate, as the name itself tells you. But so far as I can tell they didn't worry overmuch about tying the art to what the leading practitioners of Fukien White Crane thought or believed about that art, or their own culture, or themselves for that matter. The Japanese learned karate from the Okinawans, but they didn't regard it as inherently Okinawan (if they had done, their deeply racist attitudes towards the Okinwans would have made them deeply disdainful toward the art). And when the Kwan founders brought Japanese karate back to Korea from Japan, they still identified it as Japanese, using the names Tang Soo Do and Kong Soo Do, literal translations of the two transliterations of Okinawan _kara te_. Each one of these peoples, by synthesis, reduction, and expansion of the technical content they learned, transformed what they learned into their _own_ art. At its core, it was indeed the same technique sets, and much of the Okinawan content is still recoverable from the Korean hyungs that are the core of the curriculum&#8212;even in the Taegeuks and Chang Hon forms, both of them created in part to try to eliminate the Japanese source of TKD (something that, interestingly enough, didn't happen in Tang Soo Do, the oldest/most technically conservative living version of the Kwan-era MA that came over from Japan).  To insist that just at the point when the art in question, in its Chinese/Okinawan --> Japan --> Korean transmission, crossed onto the Korean Peninsula, it suddenly 'froze' in its continuously evolving and changing shape and became for all time attached inextricably to the culture, history, symbolism and political iconography of the latest country on its long developmental path, seems really unmotivated. It suggests to me a kind of almost antiquarian attitude: this isn't a living art full of potential for development and application, but a kind of relic, fossilized art form that we have to regard as a museum piece. I just don't see why the attitude that each successive borrower and adapter took in the development of the karate-based arts isn't good enough for us. They each took what they learned, made it their own and developed it as they saw fit. What is wrong with our doing the same? 

The fact that 'Tae Kwon Do is a product of Korean culture and history' does not entail that 'those must be included if the Art is to have any meaning', any more than the fierce efforts of the Koreans to _purge_ the Japanese sources of their art (after all, what they got was a product of _Japanese_ culture and history, eh?) deprived _that_ art, the Koreanized take on the karate root-stock, of meaning. So I just don't see the logic of the argument here...


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 14, 2008)

RCastillo said:


> As an inactive member of the ITF(3rd Dan), I wonder if it's possible to go that route without having to pay homage to Korea, it's language, and culture.
> 
> I enjoy TKD, and teaching, but would like to avoid the control they have over it's members, and exhorbitant testing fees that goes with it.
> 
> ...


Of course it is possible.
Sean


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## SageGhost83 (Jan 14, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> I just don't think it's possible to truly "Americanize" Tae Kwon Do away from its Korean roots.


 
Why not? The koreans "Koreanized" japanese karate away from its roots and renamed it Tae Kwon Do, so why not us? What is so special about them that says that they can do it but we can't? Taekwondo *is* a set of techniques - a set of techniques that were designed to incapacitate an aggressor. The cultural and philosophical elements were add-ons, not irreplaceable facets of the art. Taekwondo wouldn't be any less effective without them. You would still have the same techniques and principles, just with a different cultural base. Furthermore, you would have a cultural base that actually compliments the majority of the students because they would be learning the art in a way that they could more readily relate to. Koreans are not required to follow Japanese and Okinawan culture/philosophy while learning Tang So Do/Taekwondo, so why should we be required to follow Korean culture/philosophy while learning? I love Korea, too. However, I have a culture and a philosophy of my own, and they are just as good as any others.


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## exile (Jan 14, 2008)

SageGhost83 said:


> Why not? The koreans "Koreanized" japanese karate away from its roots and renamed it Tae Kwon Do, so why not us? What is so special about them that says that they can do it but we can't? Taekwondo *is* a set of techniques - a set of techniques that were designed to incapacitate an aggressor. The cultural and philosophical elements were add-ons, not irreplaceable facets of the art. Taekwondo wouldn't be any less effective without them. You would still have the same techniques and principles, just with a different cultural base. Furthermore, you would have a cultural base that actually compliments the majority of the students because they would be learning the art in a way that they could more readily relate to. Koreans are not required to follow Japanese and Okinawan culture/philosophy while learning Tang So Do/Taekwondo, so why should we be required to follow Korean culture/philosophy while learning? I love Korea, too. However, I have a culture and a philosophy of my own, and they are just as good as any others.



Can't rep you again at this point, but....


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## YoungMan (Jan 14, 2008)

So you replace the Korean culture of Tae Kwon Do, a culture that goes back 2000 years at least, and replace it with what? Self defense? Tae Kwon Do has that. American forms? What exactly are those?
Anyway, Korean reoriented Tae Kwon Do with Korean culture because they viewed the Japanese as usurpers and invaders. We've never invaded conquered Korea.
I'm still interested to know what the American version of Tae Kwon Do is.


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## SageGhost83 (Jan 14, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> So you replace the Korean culture of Tae Kwon Do, a culture that goes back 2000 years at least, and replace it with what? Self defense? Tae Kwon Do has that. American forms? What exactly are those?
> Anyway, Korean reoriented Tae Kwon Do with Korean culture because they viewed the Japanese as usurpers and invaders. We've never invaded conquered Korea.
> I'm still interested to know what the American version of Tae Kwon Do is.


 
It is a martial art first and foremost. The culture is completely irrelevant to the effectiveness of the techniques. Nobody owns the techniques or principles, they belong to everybody. What does going back 2000 years have to do with anything? Are you assuming that just because it is 2000 years old that it is automatically superior? How does Korean culture make the techniques any more or less effective? What exactly are Korean forms? Sets of empty movements put together and thrown in just to say that they are Korean and not Japanese anymore (while abandoning a lot of the devastating bunkai of the original japanese/okinawan forms). You say they reoriented Tae Kwon Do because of the Japanese, but it was the Japanese who they learned the style from in the first place! We have never invaded or conquered Korea, so what? What does that have to do with anything? It is completely irrelevant. They have their own history and we have ours. Neither is going to make the techniques or principles any more or less effective. What is American Taekwondo? Simple - Taekwondo with an American cultural base. Now was that hard? Same techs, same principles, heck, even same forms - even though I prefer the original Japanese/Okinawan forms because they contain the original bunkai and were not created just to serve a nationalist agenda.


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## exile (Jan 14, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> So you replace the Korean culture of Tae Kwon Do, a culture that goes back 2000 years at least,



Korean culture is ancient. TKD is, by all well-researched, documented, peer-reviewed accounts, a very recent import to Korea. The ancient history of Korea does not translate into an ancient history for TKD, any more than it translates into an ancient history for the internal combustion engine, eh? Let's try to keep our categories of things straight.  




YoungMan said:


> and replace it with what? Self defense? Tae Kwon Do has that. American forms? What exactly are those?



The self-defense inherent in the TKD forms is essentially the same self-defense that bunkai for the Okinawan/Japanese _sources_ of TKD reveal for the karate that went to Korea and _became_ TKD in the 30s and 40s.  The forms are either the same, or remixed subsequences from the same karate forms. The general strategic principles built into the hyungs are no different from those of the O/J kata, though certain details of execution may be (slightly) different; see Stuart Anslow's 2006 book on bunkai for the Chang Hon tuls for a nice comparison between Shotokan and ITF TKD techs to see how small-scale the differences really are. 

As for American forms... no one is talking about American hyungs, YM. You seem to think that that's what 'Americanize' means, but that's not the case. 'Americanize' means, bring an American perspective to the TKD technique set, and use that technique set in a way that coincides with American views of the martial arts, self-defense, street violence and self-protection. It doesn't mean creation of new forms. The Japanese took karate from the Okinawans but did not significantly change _any_ of the forms, so far as I know, though there are of course variant forms for all of them (and that goes on Okinawa as well as in Japan). The Koreans, as Gm. Kim notes, were doing the same Japanese karate forms as the Japanese in the 40s and 50s. But the Japanese and Koreans developed different views of karate from the Okinawans, who themselves developed different views of the MAs from the Chinese whose arts they merged with their own indigenous combat systems to give rise to karate. Everyone has a different perspective, based on their own needs and cultural attitudes. _And that's the point here_: what happened in those cultures is bound to happen in all other places which these arts spread to. 




YoungMan said:


> Anyway, Korean reoriented Tae Kwon Do with Korean culture because they viewed the Japanese as usurpers and invaders. We've never invaded conquered Korea.



Yes. And as is implicit in what you say, we have no particular reason to adopt either their point of view or that of the Japanese. Our history touches theirs only marginally, in terms of our sense of our own national experience. We have no stake in their conflicts apart (I would hope!) from a sense of outrage as we learn in more detail just what the Japanese militarists did to the people whose countries they occupied, but I feel exactly the same way when I read about what the Romans did to the British Celts a couple of millenia ago. We have no reason of our own to buy the Korean rejection of the Japanese elements in the MA they _got_ from the Japanese. 



YoungMan said:


> I'm still interested to know what the American version of Tae Kwon Do is.



I believe it is emerging: emphasis on steet-practicality, awareness of the realistic bunkai interpretations that have begun to become widely available, especially as a result of the British MA community's investigations; a new emphasis on two-person training in common street-attack scenarios, aka reality-based scenario drills of the sort that Peyton Quinn advocates in his writing... 

... and most of all, recognition of TKD as a set of combat techniques, to be studied and trained for real combat. That's not the only take on TKD out there, and I see no reason why different perspectives cannot coexist happily. But like it or not, YM, you are going to see this point of view emerge more and more over the next decade. This is what we've done with everything that comes our way: reinvent it to our own purposes. And this case is not going to be an exception. Take a look at the thread Terry recently started on new direction in TKD organizations (don't have a link at hand, sorry... will try to dig it up). That is the handwriting on the wall.


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## SageGhost83 (Jan 15, 2008)

If you are into the cultural side, then that is all fine and well - do your thing, I'm not trying to stop you. However, that doesn't mean that another person in another country can't learn the style and use their own culture. In the end, you are going to make the style *yours* anyways. It will no longer be American Taekwondo or Korean Taekwondo - it will be Youngman Taekwondo or SageGhost83 Taekwondo. The culture is not an irreplaceable part of the method. The method stands on its own as a system of techs and principles that either get the job done or do not. The culture is more of a superficial thing that can be swapped in or out at any time as long the method holds true. Let's say that I take a knife fighting system that was created in america and uses a certain set of scientific principles and proven techniques and teach the system in korea. If the Koreans were to either replace the American cultural parts (handshakes, howdy's, yee-haws, etc.) with Korean cultural parts or just flat out add a Korean cultural part where there was no culture in the first place, would that make the knife fighting system any *less* effective or legitimate? No way, it still uses the same exact techniques and principles - the only thing that has changed is the window dressing. If you like Korean culture, then by all means stick to what you do. That doesn't mean that somebody who doesn't like it or somebody who prefers their own culture is not allowed to make their own culture a part of their TKD. It is not a law of the martial arts.


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## SageGhost83 (Jan 15, 2008)

...and I apologize for the oversimplification of my defining of the Korean forms. They are not empty, they contain sound techniques, but they have lost a lot in translation due to nationalist agendas. I prefer the Japanese/Okinawan forms, but that doesn't mean that I won't bust a mean Chon Ji :high5:.


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## Hand Sword (Jan 15, 2008)

I'd say yes to the original question. It's gone on with the other styles and systems here as well. Once you reach a high enough degree, understanding, etc.. and open your own school...you can teach it however you want to. Just as the others have done.


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