# Xingyi again...maybe



## Xue Sheng (Nov 7, 2017)

Don't know what it is, or was, but teaching taijiquan again and working on Sun and thinking about teaching full time with I retire (9 years from now if my hips and knees hold up)...  but it has me considering a return to serious training in Xingyiquan. Talking to a teacher that is supposed to be incredibly good, but it would be a bit of a trip to get to him and even then it would be only once or twice a month. .

So far it is a thought and a discussion, that is all.


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## DanT (Nov 7, 2017)

Xue Sheng said:


> Don't know what it is, or was, but teaching taijiquan again and working on Sun and thinking about teaching full time with I retire (9 years from now if my hips and knees hold up)...  but it has me considering a return to serious training in Xingyiquan. Talking to a teacher that is supposed to be incredibly good, but it would be a bit of a trip to get to him and even then it would be only once or twice a month. .
> 
> So far it is a thought and a discussion, that is all.


Can you explain Xingyiquan to me? It's one of the only internal styles that I never learned. I'm interested in adding it in one day... Give me as much as you can.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 7, 2017)

DanT said:


> Can you explain Xingyiquan to me? It's one of the only internal styles that I never learned. I'm interested in adding it in one day... Give me as much as you can.



Xingyiquan: attack is attack and attack is defense.
Xingyiquan view of things (IMO) I'm going to hit you, hard.

Other than that I have all sorts if stuff here on MT on Xingyiquan, look for Xingyi addict (title not user name) posts, Also there are some Xingyi posts in my blog

Look for books by: Di Guoyong, Sun Lutang, Dennis Rovere
Videos by Hai Yang

Santi Shi - Trinity Pile Standing

Xingyiquan – The Gompa


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 7, 2017)

DanT said:


> Can you explain Xingyiquan to me?


IMO, the word Xing can also mean "walk". It strongly emphasizes on mobility. The strategy is even if you can't find any opening to attack, you keep moving. Through moving, soon or later you will find opening to attack. To drill a punch left and right for over 1 miles non-stop is a very common XingYi training. It is the opposite of the Taiji principle that if you don't move, Ii won't move. If you move, I'll ..."


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## mograph (Nov 19, 2017)

Xue Sheng is welcome to chime in, but it has been said ...

In taijiquan, you are a rubber ball.
In baguazhang, you are a spinning top.
In xingyiquan, you are a wrecking ball.
I like the guy in this video.
BTW, the forward hand can block or parry. But it's all about forward movement.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 20, 2017)

mograph said:


> Xue Sheng is welcome to chime in, but it has been said ...
> 
> In taijiquan, you are a rubber ball.
> In baguazhang, you are a spinning top.
> ...



I like that...and I shall now use it rubber ball, spinning top, wrecking ball 

Hai Yang, one of my favorites, is in Montreal.... not that far from you....compared to how far he is from me

I have said this many times

In taijiquan, defense is defense and defense is attack
In baguazhang, attack is attack and defense is defense.
In xingyiquan, attack is attack and attack is defense.
or

taijiquan has infinate patience
baguazhang has some.patience
xingyiquan has no patience


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## Dong xiao hu (Nov 20, 2017)

Aaaah xing yi. There is or was a school near me. Talked to the shifu he said he would be starting classes up again after June. No activity the school since before may. I was looking forward to getting back into the art. Oh well guess I'll just have to keep doing what I already know.

Sent from my H710VL using Tapatalk


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## punisher73 (Nov 21, 2017)

If you have Amazon Prime, there is an episode of "Kung Fu Quest" that highlighted Xing Yi.  It goes over a bit of history, strategies and training methods.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 21, 2017)

Xue Sheng said:


> Don't know what it is, or was, but teaching taijiquan again and working on Sun and thinking about teaching full time with I retire (9 years from now if my hips and knees hold up)...  but it has me considering a return to serious training in Xingyiquan. Talking to a teacher that is supposed to be incredibly good, but it would be a bit of a trip to get to him and even then it would be only once or twice a month. .
> 
> So far it is a thought and a discussion, that is all.


Do what you love.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 21, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> Do what you love.


If you have cross trained many different MA systems, when you get old, which MA system will be your best friend? IMO, the XingYi system emphasizes too much on punching and not enough on kicking. Old saying said, "If you don't use it, you will lose it". If you use XingYi to "train for health" for the rest of your life, you may lose all your kicking skill, single leg balance, and leg flexibility.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 21, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you have cross trained many different MA systems, when you get old, which MA system will be your best friend? IMO, the XingYi system emphasizes too much on punching and not enough on kicking. Old saying said, "If you don't use it, you will lose it". If you use XingYi to "train for health" for the rest of your life, you may lose all your kicking skill, single leg balance, and leg flexibility.



Define not enough kicking please.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 21, 2017)

Xue Sheng said:


> Define not enough kicking please.


I'll say 2 punches and 1 kick, or 3 punches and 1 kick will be a good ratio. When you create a MA training form for health, if you create that form with 60 moves, you should have 40 punches and 20 kicks, or 45 punches and 15 kicks.

I assume we are talking about "health" here and not "combat". Why kick is so important for "health"? It forces you to stand on one leg. The more that you kick, the less chance that you will fall. To reduce the chance of falling is very important for "old people".


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 21, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I'll say 2 punches and 1 kick, or 3 punches and 1 kick will be a good ratio. When you create a MA training form for health, if you create that form with 60 moves, you should have 40 punches and 20 kicks, or 45 punches and 15 kicks.
> 
> I assume we are talking about "health" here and not "combat". Why kick is so important for "health"? It forces you to stand on one leg. The more that you kick, the less chance that you will fall. To reduce the chance of falling is very important for "old people".



5 elements has at least 2 different kicks, one sweep, plus a knee strike and 5 different (obvious) hand strikes (there is actually more than 5), there are variations. And you do not fight with Xingyiquan using the forms exactly as trained. As a matter of fact once you get the 5 elements down it is best to mix them up and work with many different orders. So you could throw any number of punches you like combines with any number of kicks you need. I believe confining yourself to 2 to 1 or 3 to 1 limits your effectiveness, and in some cases adherence to a patterns can hurt you. What is missed by many in Xingyiquan is that it is not necessary to hold to the forms and that it can effectively stand and fight, if need be, without any forward motion.

I do not train 12 animals but I believe there are at least 5 different kicks trained in 12 animals and at least 12 different fists, again training the pattern is for training purposes only and will not be used in any specific order in application. so you can have a 2 to 1, 3 to 1, 1 to 3, 2 to 3, 1, to 2, 12 to 5, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.

As to the not standing on one leg. you can do every single form in the 5 elements with a kick, you turn and kick with bengquan, so I am not sure where you are getting the idea that Xingyi does not stand on one leg or kick.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 21, 2017)

As long as you add in enough kick into your daily training, it doesn't matter what style that you train for "health". You will maintain good health through your old age. During my daily training, I train 1 step 3 punches combo. I also train front kick, roundhouse kick, side kick combo. This way my punching training and kicking training can be balanced.

I have a long fist combo with 3 punches, 1 joint lock, and 4 kicks.

1. front kick,
2. palm strike,
3. wrist lock,
4. side kick,
5. back kick,
6. hammer fist,
7. front kick,
8. face punch.

I also have a 6 moves XingYi combo with 6 punches and no kick.

1. Pi Chuan,
2. Zuan Chuan,
3. Heng Chuan,
4. Beng Chuan,
5. Protect groin hammer fist,
6. Pao Chuan.

When I train both drills, I can see a big difference for the final result of my health. IMO, if you only train XingYi 5 elements, it may not be good enough for your "health".


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## mograph (Nov 21, 2017)

My master likes a simple heel kick to the knee or instep, sometimes camouflaged by upper body attacks.
Nothing high, nothing to "finish." Damage their ability to stand and/or walk, and you're good.


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## mograph (Nov 21, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When I train both drills, I can see a big difference for the final result of my health. IMO, if you only train XingYi 5 elements, it may not be good enough for your "health".



FYI, KFW: Quotation marks are not used for emphasis in English. Instead, they indicate that the word inside the quotes is not the writer's own words, or that the writer does not really believe in the word inside the quotes. Instead, a word is best emphasized by using the _italic_ and/or *bold* button above.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 21, 2017)

mograph said:


> the writer does not really believe in the word inside the quotes.


You are right! I always quote "internal" because I don't believe there is any difference between "internal" and external. I will never quote external.

I use quote on "health" to indicate that I'm not a "MA for health" person. I believe that MA training is for combat and not for "health". The "health" is only the byproduct of the MA training.

I may start to quote "self-defense". When A's fist meets on B's face, I truly don't think there can be any difference between "self-defense" and fighting.


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## Encho (Nov 21, 2017)

There is no rules saying you can not kick or that any of the 5 fist must be even fists! In my opinion they are energies with different principles and theories for me personally thinking that they are just fists limits the scope of what it can actually be. I see no conflict with Piquan being used to grab or adding a kick when stepping. 

In my opinion you don't have to kick for health, you can simply swing the legs loosely during warm up. Xingyiquan has its own stretching routine in some schools that emphasis it more or less. All schools stress the importance of San ti shi which if done properly does results in overall health, each fist or energy has connection to the Zangfu organs and follows the Wuxing element theory for health in Chinese medicine. 

 In my opinion martial training depends on what that person wants to accomplish, some use it for learning self defense others use it as a way to achieve enlightenment. 
I personally train Xingyiquan mostly just for Santi and I go through the Wuxingquan routine just so I do not forget it and a new perspective. 

I think Xue Sheng should do more Santi shi.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 21, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When I train both drills, I can see a big difference for the final result of my health. IMO, if you only train XingYi 5 elements, it may not be good enough for your "health".



I never said for health, although I do know you did, and, per usual, we do not agree. But that's ok, If you train 5 elements right it is good for health and for SD. And training it right is more than just training forms


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 21, 2017)

Encho said:


> There is no rules saying you can not kick or that any of the 5 fist must be even fists! In my opinion they are energies with different principles and theories for me personally thinking that they are just fists limits the scope of what it can actually be. I see no conflict with Piquan being used to grab or adding a kick when stepping.
> 
> In my opinion you don't have to kick for health, you can simply swing the legs loosely during warm up. Xingyiquan has its own stretching routine in some schools that emphasis it more or less. All schools stress the importance of San ti shi which if done properly does results in overall health, each fist or energy has connection to the Zangfu organs and follows the Wuxing element theory for health in Chinese medicine.
> 
> ...



Did a lot of Santi Shi, think it is important, but much overly depended upon, and over trained. And in  some cases it can lead to one forgetting that the Santi Shi posture has to ultimately move and when moving, maintain that structure.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 21, 2017)

Encho said:


> some use it for learning self defense others use it as a way to achieve enlightenment.


This is why I did not mention about combat, enlightenment, performance, self-cultivation, inner peace, ... but "health". As long as you have included swing your leg into your training, it will be as good as kicking IMO.


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## Encho (Nov 21, 2017)

Xue Sheng said:


> Did a lot of Santi Shi, think it is important, but much overly depended upon, and over trained. And in  some cases it can lead to one forgetting that the Santi Shi posture has to ultimately move and when moving, maintain that structure.


I think most people can not stand more than 10 minutes in Santi shi correctly, I think if you train longer in it like 30 minutes or more  than the body will move more efficient.
The recoil bounce back from rooting during Santi shi allows for that spring forward needed, but what do I know I am more into Baguazhang our logic is circular.


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## Encho (Nov 21, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is why I did not mention about combat, enlightenment, self-cultivation, inner peace, ... but "health". As long as you have included swing your leg into your training, it will be as good as kicking IMO.


I don't do these exercises like I did when I was younger I do the older people version that you see old people do in the park.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 21, 2017)

Encho said:


> I don't do these exercises like I did when I was younger I do the older people version that you see old people do in the park.


Most old people don't stand on one leg. That's the problem I intend to address. My junior high school boy scout teacher fell down and died this year. Any exercise that can improve balance is a good exercise. IMO, 2 legs balance (such as Santi) is not good enough.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 21, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Most old people don't stand on one leg. That's the problem I intend to address. My junior high school boy scout teacher fell down and died this year. Any exercise that can improve balance is a good exercise. IMO, 2 legs balance (such as Santi) is not good enough.



Then train Yiquan/Dachengquan


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## Encho (Nov 21, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Most old people don't stand on one leg. That's the problem I intend to address. My junior high school boy scout teacher fell down and died this year. Any exercise that can improve balance is a good exercise. IMO, 2 legs balance (such as Santi) is not good enough.


You do know Sant is done with 75% to 80% on one leg right?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 21, 2017)

Encho said:


> You do know Sant is done with 75% to 80% on one leg right?


Santi Shi (三体式) is also called 3-7 Shi (三七式). By definition, it should have 30% weight on the leading leg and 70% weight on the back leg.


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## Encho (Nov 21, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Santi Shi (三体式) is also called 3-7 Shi (三七式). By definition, it should have 30% weight on the leading leg and 70% weight on the back leg.


The  literal hanzi does not mean one has to assume 70/30 rule when standing in Santi shi, there are different reasons to alter the stance depending on what you are doing and emphasis is. I like to stand 80/20 my teacher also taught a 60/40 the point is to "sit or sink"  on the back leg. 

This is the same with the hand positions some like to have the hand lower. some like to have them spread further apart there really isn't an incorrect or correct way in my opinion as long as the principles are aligned correctly with the body structured; I was also taught two ways my back foot is presented.

.


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## xingyiquan (Dec 20, 2017)

Yang Hai was pretty bad, all arm movement, xingyi is about body movement， everything has to work together


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## donald1 (Dec 20, 2017)

i like the forms. fast moving forms with fluid movements constantly moving one technique after the next. if there are any pauses its usually brief and don't get me started on the strange sounding names. i haven't heard a single form name that didn't sound unusual. mostly do to the fact that i don't understand chinese, but that's besides the point of-coarse.


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 21, 2017)

donald1 said:


> i like the forms. fast moving forms with fluid movements constantly moving one technique after the next. if there are any pauses its usually brief and don't get me started on the strange sounding names. i haven't heard a single form name that didn't sound unusual. mostly do to the fact that i don't understand chinese, but that's besides the point of-coarse.



Háizi jīntiān (kids today)


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## greytowhite (Dec 27, 2017)

xingyiquan said:


> Yang Hai was pretty bad, all arm movement, xingyi is about body movement， everything has to work together



Have you touched hands with Yang? I think a lot of us need to go touch hands with Yang Hai instead of judging from his videos. I didn't like the appearance of his performances but people I respect give him high marks - giving me reason to doubt my judgment.


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