# Good old Tam Toi



## eyebeams (May 11, 2005)

Just got back from my kungfu class (I take Mizong Luohan, Xingyi and Yang Taiji -- yeah, that's why the class is 31/2 to 4 hours). We worked some great combinations from Tam Toi. Specifically, we were working the 3rd movement as a downward hook/uppercut/grab/hammerfist combo.

 You don't hear much about the set being applied, so I was wondering if anybody else had favourite movements or tricks to glean from the set.


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## Dronak (May 11, 2005)

If Tam Toi is the same thing as the Tan Tui spring(y) leg routines, then first, I'd say you need to say which routine that 3rd movement is in for us to better understand what you mean.  We learned ten routine tan tui, but only used them as basic practice.  We never did much in the way of applications of the movements.  I went searching around for more info on the routines and at some point I found someone demonstrating applications; I think it was a video posted at the CyberKwoon.com web board.  I think that was the only thing I've seen in this area though, so perhaps others can give you more info.


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## eyebeams (May 11, 2005)

12-set.


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## CMack11 (May 12, 2005)

We do the 12-road tan tui from wah lum mantis as our first form.  But we have learned several applications from the set.


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## clfsean (May 12, 2005)

When did Wah Lum start teaching the roads??

I know 7* from the Chin Woo teaches the roads, but I've never heard of Wah Lum teaching the roads. I know a couple of Wah Lum sifu beside mine before he left Wah Lum. They never learned the roads. One of them is a 15+ year sifu... 
The 12 road is a Chin Woo modification of the Muslim 10 road I believe.


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## CMack11 (May 12, 2005)

clfsean said:
			
		

> When did Wah Lum start teaching the roads??
> 
> I know 7* from the Chin Woo teaches the roads, but I've never heard of Wah Lum teaching the roads. I know a couple of Wah Lum sifu beside mine before he left Wah Lum. They never learned the roads. One of them is a 15+ year sifu...
> The 12 road is a Chin Woo modification of the Muslim 10 road I believe.


I probably screwed that up.  Newbie mistake!  :whip: 

For some reason I thought our 12-road tan tui was from Wah Lum.


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## clfsean (May 12, 2005)

Nah no screw up dude... just making sure something hadn't changed (big time) & I missed it... :toast:


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## j_m (May 12, 2005)

We spend a fair amount of time on usage/applications with the Islamic 10 road Tan Tui.  It has everything you could ever want to use... and then some :wink:  You could probably spend 5 years on Tan Tui alone and, if taught and practiced properly, be one bad mofo fighter.  If one so desired.  There is also a 12 road Mizong Tan Tui in our Mizong system.  It's way wacky... as is most of the Mizong stuff  :anic:




jm


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## dmax999 (May 12, 2005)

I've learned the first six of them, not sure which version of them (Islamic or Mizhong).  I know the 3rd one you are talking about, its the first one you really get to learn coordinating the arms with the hip movements.  I think 4 is my favorite of the ones I know.

Just as a side note... If you learn 3 and 6 you have half of one of our system's black belt form, Jeet Chuan (Intercepting Fist).  I'm told that Bruce Lee named Jeet Kune Do after this form, but I find that highly unlikely.


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## Dronak (May 12, 2005)

Oh, you meant the 3rd routine of the set.  Since you said "movement", I thought you were talking about only part of a routine, that's why I asked where it came from.  If you're interested, in the Video Exchange thread there's a link to an old video of Han Ching-Tan performing 10 routine tan tui.  He was our teacher's grand-teacher and what we learned is essentially the same as what's shown in that video.  I'm not sure of the exact derivation of this set, but I've read that there were originally only 8 routines and the 9th and 10th, both including double kicks, were added by the Central Chinese Martial Art Institute (which Han attended).


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## Randy Strausbaugh (May 12, 2005)

CMack11 said:
			
		

> For some reason I thought our 12-road tan tui was from Wah Lum.


Wah Lum is sometimes referred to as Wah Lum Tan Tui Praying Mantis.  I don't know if they teach the roads, but it is a reasonable inference.


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## clfsean (May 13, 2005)

Randy Strausbaugh said:
			
		

> Wah Lum is sometimes referred to as Wah Lum Tan Tui Praying Mantis. I don't know if they teach the roads, but it is a reasonable inference.


Wah Lum is correctly known as Wah Lum Tam Tui Tang Lang. But they use a different character for Tam. They use Seeking instead of Springy & don't teach the roads.


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## j_m (May 13, 2005)

Dronak said:
			
		

> I'm not sure of the exact derivation of this set, but I've read that there were originally only 8 routines and the 9th and 10th, both including double kicks, were added by the Central Chinese Martial Art Institute (which Han attended).


I've heard and read that there were originally 28 routines.  And we have more than one version of the 10th routine... that does not include double kicks... and that is much more difficult. 

*"Originally its basis, the Tan Tui set, was composed of 28 routines  one for each letter of the Arabic alphabet. Eventually everything was compiled into the ten road spring leg which remains with us today."*


Some other interesting excerpts from the same article:

*"To this day, if you say you practice Tan Tui, those in the know will immediately ask "10 or 12?" Tan Tui is a popular set adopted by many styles and lent a special flavor by each. For instance, in one branch of mantis, there is a 14-road Tan Tui."*

*"But tan Tui is so profound that many boxers throughout history have specialized in its technique."*

*"In due course, after the student has learned the ten basic roads the real training should begin. This is a good example of ancient training methods versus more contemporary ones. Nowadays, having completed the tan Tui, the student immediately moves onto another more interesting and diverse set of actions. This is too bad because the training has really just begun. For instance, since the ten roads are each separate they can be done in any order. A good Tan Tui instructor will then have the student mix and match roads until any road can be done in any order at will. Then the roads are again practiced with shuffling steps, changes of speed, and angled steps breaking the robot-like aspect completely. This challenges the students' creativity and ability to respond. Finally the actions from the roads are completely mixed so the student may start with No. 1, switch to No. 8, and finish with No. 5 without losing place or direction. From a simple series of movements the student is now only a small step from basic sparring practice."*


http://www.plumpub.com/info/Articles/art_TMmuslimkf.htm


Enjoy!


jm


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## Dronak (May 13, 2005)

Well, I didn't mean originally as in this is where everything started from.  I meant it more in the sense of before it was added to by the Central Chinese Martial Art Institute, it was 8 routines then.  And if everything did get compiled out of a 28 routine set, it's certainly possible that different people/styles/whatever compiled them differently.  So maybe that's why we ended up with an 8 routine set in our line that had 2 routines added later to make 10.  *shrug*  I think I've seen that article before, though I'm not sure I saw it on Plum Pub. first.


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## Randy Strausbaugh (May 13, 2005)

clfsean said:
			
		

> Wah Lum is correctly known as Wah Lum Tam Tui Tang Lang. But they use a different character for Tam. They use Seeking instead of Springy & don't teach the roads.


Thanks for the info.  :asian:


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## eyebeams (May 17, 2005)

Thanks for the info.

 Yes, I meant the third sequence, not just one movement. I've only just finished learning the set and some parts (4, 8 and 10) have been pretty tricky for me.


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## mantis (May 5, 2006)

eyebeams said:
			
		

> Thanks for the info.
> 
> Yes, I meant the third sequence, not just one movement. I've only just finished learning the set and some parts (4, 8 and 10) have been pretty tricky for me.


which one is 8?
is this with phoenix spreads its wings with shaolin downward block (the famous shaolin angled downward block)?


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