# Training WC in a 'non traditional' setting...



## jujin (Sep 29, 2013)

Greetings all,

I've been doing WC for a little over a month now and like all beginners am starting out with Sim Lim Tao.  I'm really enjoying myself so far but I have a question.  We do our class in a 'studio' type setting at a gym so there are no hanging bags, no wall bags, no boards, no wooden dummies...  You get the picture.  Basically it's just an empty studio with mats on the floor they use for other classes.  We used yoga blocks last time to practice our punches which worked out pretty good.  I'm curious though how we'll develop our other skills like increasing bone density through hitting wall bags or wooden boards and the lack of wooden dummies, even though I'm a LONG way from it, raises some questions.  What do you guys think?  Do you NEED all the equipment to effectively learn WC?  Also what should I be looking for in terms of intensity of the classes?  I don't walk out of class drenched in sweat like I've done 9 rounds of boxing or anything like that... the classes are actually pretty relaxed.


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## Argus (Sep 30, 2013)

I'm not that far along in my training myself, but I don't think you need any equipment. You may need a dummy to practice on eventually, when you start learning that, but I wouldn't worry about that for now. You don't need to condition your arms or hands by hitting bags or hard objects. We don't do conditioning as you might see done in Karate. Good striking technique, and common sense is sufficient. Pads or wall-bags might be helpful in developing speed and power in your strikes, though.

At my school, we rarely use any kind of equipment anyway, so I wouldn't be concerned with it. Focus on the meat and potatoes first!


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## Dinkydoo (Sep 30, 2013)

I take classes in a general sports hall and community centre, so we lack heavy duty gym equipment too. They say that a good student goes to class to learn but trains at home so unless you're attending classes most nights of the week I'd suggest that you'd be better off using 'instructor contact time' to develop skill and technique, whilst improving your overall fitness and conditioning out of class. Mung Beans are good to use for hand and forearm conditioning - so is plenty of sticky hand drills (and that can be done during class time).


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## r'n'r (Sep 30, 2013)

Ok, for your knuckles, do knuckle pushups and do planks(normal and side planks) on your knuckles. A minute time would be enough.

For forearm and I assume also shin density, you need to do drills where your partner is hitting you with enough power to force reticular remodeling. But remember, being able to take a hit on your bones is mostly a thing of being used to being hit + solid body structure rather than the density of your bones. We had a drill like this for every technique and even with pads, our forearms were bruised in the beginning. After time, when your technique improves, you don't get so much bruises anymore. If you prefer a more evasive style this might not be necessary, although there is a certain sense of security when you know you can take a hit.

For the wooden dummy, my personal opinion is you don't really need one as long you have live partners to train with. It is nice to have one, though.

I also trained in a place with no equipment, but I can't remember a time I wasn't drenched in sweat after training. So don't judge a place on it's equipment, judge it by the quality of instruction you recieve. If you don't do any conditioning in class, ask your instructor what you can do at home. He should be able to give you a few exercises. If he tells you that you don't need to do that kind of stuff, find a new place to train. Most people need to.

And here's another drill for you: grab a partner, have him hold his hands together, palms facing you, hands on the same height as your head. Tell him to relax his arms, so when you hit them, his elbow acts as a hinge. Now for short bursts of 5-20 seconds, punch his hands as fast as you can. Do 3-5 sets. If you're feeling particulary masohistic, do 20 seconds - 20 pushups - 15 seconds - 15 pushups... If you can do this, your hands will be adequately conditioned for striking. Important points: partner must relax his hands, you must hit trough his palms, and remember to relax too.


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## jujin (Sep 30, 2013)

Really sound advice guys thank you!  I did end up buying a wallbag for home use though



Dinkydoo said:


> They say that a good student goes to class to learn but trains at home so unless you're attending classes most nights of the week I'd suggest that you'd be better off using 'instructor contact time' to develop skill and technique, whilst improving your overall fitness and conditioning out of class.



This is very true I didn't realize it, thank you.


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## StormShadow (Oct 1, 2013)

You just need partners... The traditional Chinese gear, wall bags, iron palm station ect can actually be made at home.  For bone density again, you just need your partner.  Doing bone knocking exercises or "iron body" gets this accomplished. I also saw someone mention knuckle push ups, knuckle planks and he's right. So basically you just need good instruction, and a decent partner lol.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2


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## Eric_H (Oct 1, 2013)

r'n'r said:


> don't judge a place on it's equipment, judge it by the quality of instruction you recieve. If you don't do any conditioning in class, ask your instructor what you can do at home. He should be able to give you a few exercises. If he tells you that you don't need to do that kind of stuff, find a new place to train.



Pretty much what i was going to say.

I'm going to go a step further though - if they don't do conditioning inside of class, it's not worth your time unless you are willing to dedicate a very large block of outside time to conditioning. 

This is one of the things that I consider a great failure of CMA training and why I consider Muay Thai so effective.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 1, 2013)

In my short stint with Wing Chun training the best training and the best sifu of the 2 I trained with was teaching me outside next to a college art center

Don't worry about the place...just focus on the guy who is teaching


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## r'n'r (Oct 1, 2013)

Eric_H said:


> Pretty much what i was going to say.
> 
> I'm going to go a step further though - if they don't do conditioning inside of class, it's not worth your time unless you are willing to dedicate a very large block of outside time to conditioning.
> 
> This is one of the things that I consider a great failure of CMA training and why I consider Muay Thai so effective.



I would agree. We always had 15-20 minutes at the end of a 1.5 hour class for conditioning, and the instructor made them VERY grueling.


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## Argus (Oct 1, 2013)

I'm kind of skeptical about the value of "conditioning," particularly in regards to WC.

Do you mean physical exercise / cardio? There's definitely value in that. But if you're talking about knocking your fore-arms and knuckles against hard things, that's more debatable. It's not our aim to be bluntly meeting an opponent's force, and honestly, it's not very often, if at all, that you need to. In my own limited experience, even sparring, or going at it fairly intensely in chisau, I've never felt the need to do any conditioning. I've never even seriously bruised my arm; I can't imagine the amount of head-on blunt force that would be required to break the bones of the forearm. Even in a combat situation, that really shouldn't be happening. You should always be trying to avoid, redirect, or dissipate and absorb energy. Even if you have done conditioning, meeting it head on is not a great idea.

I know that many lineages don't see value in this kind of conditioning; including some very skilled fighters. Physical fitness, and working with bags is definitely important, but I think you should weigh the potential risks, benefits, and time spent when it comes to hard "bone-knocking" type conditioning. It's definitely not a requirement.

PS. To be clear, I'm not trying to knock people / lineages who do this type of conditioning. I just thought these points would be worth mentioning, as I've heard them brought up and discussed by people much more experienced than me. It would be interesting to hear the views of both people who have and haven't done conditioning.


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## r'n'r (Oct 2, 2013)

Argus said:


> I'm kind of skeptical about the value of "conditioning," particularly in regards to WC.
> 
> Do you mean physical exercise / cardio? There's definitely value in that. But if you're talking about knocking your fore-arms and knuckles against hard things, that's more debatable. It's not our aim to be bluntly meeting an opponent's force, and honestly, it's not very often, if at all, that you need to. In my own limited experience, even sparring, or going at it fairly intensely in chisau, I've never felt the need to do any conditioning. I've never even seriously bruised my arm; I can't imagine the amount of head-on blunt force that would be required to break the bones of the forearm. Even in a combat situation, that really shouldn't be happening. You should always be trying to avoid, redirect, or dissipate and absorb energy. Even if you have done conditioning, meeting it head on is not a great idea.
> 
> ...



Well, I'm certainly not putting down any approach, I feel they all have value.

We do what you might call 'hard style' Wing Chun. One of the maxims is "Every move is an attack." So, when we do a Tan and punch, the Tan is also striking the hand that is attacking us. Executed correctly, there is no damage to your forearm, but the arm of the opponent is going to hurt badly. Of course, there are exceptions to the rules too.

But I agree with you, to strike trees with your fists and forearms would be unproductive and likely dangerous. Conditioning we do is done trough drills with a partner who is striking with near full force. But planks, for example, are a useful tool to teach someone about proper hand alignment for strikes. And even if you are very good at avoiding and redirecting, what happens when you meet someone faster than you? You might not be able to avoid. Someone stronger than your? You might not be able to redirect. If for nothing else, then for these situations, for which Wing Chun in my opinion is designed for, you'd be better off prepared for blocking if needed.

And I would too like to hear from someone who doesn't do this type of conditioning. Different people often have ideas we haven't even considered.


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## J W (Oct 2, 2013)

r'n'r said:


> Well, I'm certainly not putting down any approach, I feel they all have value.
> 
> We do what you might call 'hard style' Wing Chun. One of the maxims is "Every move is an attack." So, when we do a Tan and punch, the Tan is also striking the hand that is attacking us. Executed correctly, there is no damage to your forearm, but the arm of the opponent is going to hurt badly. Of course, there are exceptions to the rules too.
> 
> ...



We have the same idea that every move is an attack, however we are referring to attacking the opponents centerline (head, chest, whatever) when we say this. We don't bother with attacking limbs. We also don't do any "conditioning" of the forearms (I'm assuming we're talking about hitting our forearms against something to toughen them up?), and the only real conditioning of the fist would be with the wall bag. 

However, I think we would define ourselves as a soft style of WC, so it makes sense if we have different approaches to this. As for falling back on hard blocking if someone is faster/stronger than you; I would think of this as a last-resort emergency tactic, when your main defenses have been breeched. Is your time better spent preparing to use these last resort tactics, or improving your skill so that you're less likely to end up in such situations in the first place?

Now getting back to the OP for a second; wall bags and focus mitts aren't too expensive, so you could always see about collecting some cash from your fellow students and investing in these items for the class if you feel you need them. But I agree with the others that they aren't completely necessary, a good teacher is way more important. You will of course need a jong if you want to learn that form, but that is a ways off for you so don't even worry about it yet.


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## Instructor (Oct 2, 2013)

Going back to the OP.

I am not a Wing Chun guy so you know (grain of salt).  But don't sweat the setting.  Great martial arts training isn't about some training hall that looks like what you see in the movies.  It's about what is getting taught and how it is learned.  I've seen incredible martial arts training in borrowed basements, and garages.  I've seen fully appointed pro schools with every amenity reduced to little more than daycare.  Focus on the training, not the setting.


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## mograph (Oct 3, 2013)

Dinkydoo said:


> They say that a good student goes to class to learn but trains at home so unless you're attending classes most nights of the week I'd suggest that you'd be better off using 'instructor contact time' to develop skill and technique, whilst improving your overall fitness and conditioning out of class.


Good advice for any art!


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## StormShadow (Oct 5, 2013)

J W said:


> We have the same idea that every move is an attack, however we are referring to attacking the opponents centerline (head, chest, whatever) when we say this. We don't bother with attacking limbs. We also don't do any "conditioning" of the forearms (I'm assuming we're talking about hitting our forearms against something to toughen them up?), and the only real conditioning of the fist would be with the wall bag.
> 
> 
> However, I think we would define ourselves as a soft style of WC, so it makes sense if we have different approaches to this. As for falling back on hard blocking if someone is faster/stronger than you; I would think of this as a last-resort emergency tactic, when your main defenses have been breeched. Is your time better spent preparing to use these last resort tactics, or improving your skill so that you're less likely to end up in such situations in the first place?
> ...




 I don't "think" he meant attacking limbs persay. But for instance, an opponent throws a hook and you meet it with a bil and a punch from your center to his face, same time of course. The bil soa is used as a deflection but if the thrower of the bil soa has trained in bone knocking or iron body and made more dense his arms, legs ect... the bil soa alone would do damage as well as the punch from the center to the target itself. You're not trying to meet force with force but rather letting the opponents force cause harm to himself.  I've been on the giving and receiving end on this. All the bruises to my forearm are a testement as to how effective bone knocking is if performed properly. You are reluctant to want to throw any more punches after a properly place bil.


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## StormShadow (Oct 5, 2013)

r'n'r said:


> I would agree. We always had 15-20 minutes at the end of a 1.5 hour class for conditioning, and the instructor made them VERY grueling.



We have about 1hr of intense, intense cardio before class begins. These are actual cardio classes that are classes unto themselves and are optional.  Though most do choose to partake in the classes to increase their fitness.


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## r'n'r (Oct 6, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> I don't "think" he meant attacking limbs persay. But for instance, an opponent throws a hook and you meet it with a bil and a punch from your center to his face, same time of course. The bil soa is used as a deflection but if the thrower of the bil soa has trained in bone knocking or iron body and made more dense his arms, legs ect... the bil soa alone would do damage as well as the punch from the center to the target itself. You're not trying to meet force with force but rather letting the opponents force cause harm to himself.  I've been on the giving and receiving end on this. All the bruises to my forearm are a testement as to how effective bone knocking is if performed properly. You are reluctant to want to throw any more punches after a properly place bil.



Exactly! And for the record, we only condition our arms with partner drills.


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## wingchun100 (Feb 11, 2014)

The dummy would be nice, especially since there is a form that goes along with it, but all the other equipment you mention is not necessary...in my opinion. It's definitely cool to develop bone density so that people feel like they are being hit by a rock when you punch them, but if you develop proper body mechanics, that's how it will feel anyway.

The primary thing that will make your wing chun work...is you, not a million pieces of fancy gear.


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