# Itchin' for a fight?



## astrobiologist (Apr 13, 2009)

From time to time, I kind of start getting a little itch for a fight.  It's a weird sensation.  It's like I want to spar full on with a resistant opponent just to work through my reactions and technique in a much more 'real' environment.  The thing is though, I'm a pretty nice guy (I'm not intimidating or anything), I'm not pushy or rude, and I know from my training that starting a fight against an unknown combatant is a serious taboo.

I'm thinking about seeing if some local martial artists want to go for a full tilt sparring match or six.  That way I can be somewhat safe while still getting into a more combative situation.  

Anyone else ever get the "itch"?  How do you handle it?


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 13, 2009)

astrobiologist said:


> From time to time, I kind of start getting a little itch for a fight.  It's a weird sensation.  It's like I want to spar full on with a resistant opponent just to work through my reactions and technique in a much more 'real' environment.  The thing is though, I'm a pretty nice guy (I'm not intimidating or anything), I'm not pushy or rude, and I know from my training that starting a fight against an unknown combatant is a serious taboo.
> 
> I'm thinking about seeing if some local martial artists want to go for a full tilt sparring match or six.  That way I can be somewhat safe while still getting into a more combative situation.
> 
> Anyone else ever get the "itch"?  How do you handle it?



We spar in my dojo.  Hard.


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## Aiki Lee (Apr 13, 2009)

Not so much for sparring, but I do have the itch to experience a real life or death combat. Perhaps I'm a strange person. I don't want to rush into a dangerous situation, but I would like to have that kind of experience under my belt just to know what it was like. Can I save my own life against a person committed to killing me? Can I defeat a deranged MAist who holds some degree of skill? Can I disarm a gun or knife from a gun trying to kill me or take me to a secondary location? How about multiple attackers with guns and knives? Yes the itch is there, and I really want to scratch.

Since I have no desire to get myself killed by jumping into a bad situation I just grab my most trusted training partners and my teacher and say, I want to work on this (insert reality based training idea here). It releives some of the itch, but it always comes back. I don't think there is a cure for it other than to go out and do it, but then again it's something foolish to purposefully seek out.


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 13, 2009)

I think every man desires to test himself and measure himself against other men - and fears it also.  Some take action on those urges, others do not.

I think of men like Teddy Roosevelt and Ernest Hemingway, among others.


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## Stac3y (Apr 13, 2009)

Where I train, we are frequently told, "If you want to go hard, just ask a black belt. Most of them will be happy to." So I know the option is there, but I haven't availed myself of it. Moderate contact is fine for me, thanks. Not that I don't occasionally get the "itch," but it gets squashed by other considerations.


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## Omar B (Apr 13, 2009)

It's easy, organize a semi-controlled fight club.  You and your guys from your dojo can get in touch with guys from other gyms, even boxing clubs and have a little unadvertised fight night.  I'm sure you'll find guys who are into it.


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## just2kicku (Apr 13, 2009)

What we've done before, and with your instructors permission, is get some of the hard core guys to stay after class and go all out with no pads. Except matbe a mouth guard. 

A lot of us love doing that. We'll use plastic knives and real clubs. Sometimes we'll turn off the lights and fight in the dark and with multiple attackers. You gotta be prepared to get lumped up pretty good though. We have all come out of there with some pretty good sized knots on our heads, shins,elbows. Got some black eyes and split up lips from it also.

Another thing we'll do is, one guy will back up against the wall and have one or two guys come at you with everything. Since there is no backing up, you're forced to block and fight with no retreat. Fun stuff, got pretty lumped up doing that too. Not so much fun for the ceramic store next to us!


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## Sukerkin (Apr 13, 2009)

Not an insane idea, *Omar* but you have to think of the fact that the chances of someone getting injured are pretty high - after all, that is the intent of the arts that we study and if you take off the 'regulators' that are there to make sparring safer ...

Trying to get insurance for such a thing would be extremely difficult and if you don't bother and the worst happens, whoever organised it would be in a very bad situation indeed.

It's probably best to stick with as full contact sparring as you can get to scratch that 'combat' itch.


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## Makalakumu (Apr 13, 2009)

Another thing to keep in mind is that during those matches, you can receive a career ending injury that pretty much takes you out of karate practice for good.  So, you have to weigh the pros and cons.  

For myself, I have participated in MMA style sparring, Full Contact Karate, Sub Grappling, Judo, and Full Contact Weapon sparring.  Eleven broken bones later, I've decided that I've had enough and I'm not interested in testing further.

I consider myself lucky to have not injured myself beyond the point of no return.  I do have a lingering back injury that will take me out if I'm not careful, however.

Each to their own, but that is the closest I want to get to "real" combat.


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## jarrod (Apr 13, 2009)

i get the same feeling, or a similar one.  it usually just goes away.  

line up an amateur mma fight if you want, they're not hard to get.  

jf


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## Nolerama (Apr 13, 2009)

I agree with Omar: organize an unadvertised fight club. Don't charge, and make sure that there are ground rules of your choosing. I mean, you can still wear protective gear like mouthpieces, gloves, and cups and still scratch that competitive itch to fight.

I don't suggest including your school on this. It increases liability for the business. It's up to you to tell your instructor.

I also suggest training for an MMA fight, which is a popular medium today for competition...

Another thing that comes to mind is that you might be reaching your athletic threshold. Ask about a more intense regimen from your instructor. If he/she says no, seek it elsewhere.

You could also be hitting a training plateau, and might be getting bored with the technique you're practicing. From personal experience, stay focused on what you're learning now, since it'll definitely help in the future.

My .02. Do what makes you happy. After all, the MAs is what we do on our free time, right?


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## Gordon Nore (Apr 13, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I think every man desires to test himself and measure himself against other men - and fears it also.  Some take action on those urges, others do not.
> 
> I think of men like Teddy Roosevelt and Ernest Hemingway, among others.



I think of Morley Callaghan.
http://www.thesweetscience.com/boxing-article/1279/ernest-hemingway-literary-giant-boxing-pretender/

:angel:


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 13, 2009)

Gordon Nore said:


> I think of Morley Callaghan.
> http://www.thesweetscience.com/boxing-article/1279/ernest-hemingway-literary-giant-boxing-pretender/
> 
> :angel:



Fascinating - never knew that.  Most of my information on Hemingway's boxing in Paris came by way of reading Henry Miller, Anais Nin, etc.  They were all up to their necks in it.  Thanks!


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## Omar B (Apr 13, 2009)

Sukerkin said:


> Not an insane idea, *Omar* but you have to think of the fact that the chances of someone getting injured are pretty high - after all, that is the intent of the arts that we study and if you take off the 'regulators' that are there to make sparring safer ...
> Trying to get insurance for such a thing would be extremely difficult and if you don't bother and the worst happens, whoever organised it would be in a very bad situation indeed.
> It's probably best to stick with as full contact sparring as you can get to scratch that 'combat' itch.



I hear what you are saying man but considering it's their own fight club they can have as little or as much protection and as little or as many rules as they wish.  Hooking up with some guys from a boxing club can even get you into a good, safe facility.  If you only invite *participants* and money is not exchanged at the door or anywhere else then it's completely legal and the law would see it as a bunch of students training with each other.

Remember, no audience, no money changing hands at the door, for refreshments or bets and it's held in a gym/dojo after business hours then it's cool.


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## astrobiologist (Apr 13, 2009)

I like the idea of trying a fight club.  I was in a fight club in college and it was fun, though most of the guys never wanted to go full-tilt boogy.  

I'm an instructor at my school.  My workouts are pretty much as hard as it gets for our school, but I have students of differing ability levels that I have to consider so I can never get too crazy with sparring.  There is another forum that I check out sometimes that has a section for people who want to meet up and spar.  That's a cool idea.

As far as MMA goes, I think I would definitely enjoy a fight.  There are still a lot of rules there, but at least I could scratch that itch.


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 13, 2009)

Omar B said:


> Remember, no audience, no money changing hands at the door, for refreshments or bets and it's held in a gym/dojo after business hours then it's cool.



Hahahahaha, you've never been sued, have you?  Didn't think so.

Let one guy get hurt - his wife or mom or whatever gets their panties in a twist.  Next thing you know, lawyers are involved.  And disclaimers?  Don't mean squat.  They find out who has the deepest pockets - usually the venue, because they have insurance - and then it's off to the races.


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 13, 2009)

Here's some fun recent news:

http://www.nj.com/news/jjournal/jerseycity/index.ssf?/base/news-8/123925835346180.xml&coll=3



> In what authorities are preliminarily calling a tragic accident, a 14-year-old engaged in a boxing match with another 14-year-old boy at the Edward Crincoli Park in the Jersey City Heights died last night.



http://news.google.com/archivesearch?q="fight+club"+arrest&scoring=n&hl=en&ned=us&sa=N&sugg=d&as_ldate=2000&as_hdate=2009&lnav=hist10


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## Nolerama (Apr 13, 2009)

astrobiologist said:


> I like the idea of trying a fight club.  I was in a fight club in college and it was fun, though most of the guys never wanted to go full-tilt boogy.
> 
> I'm an instructor at my school.  My workouts are pretty much as hard as it gets for our school, but I have students of differing ability levels that I have to consider so I can never get too crazy with sparring.  There is another forum that I check out sometimes that has a section for people who want to meet up and spar.  That's a cool idea.
> 
> As far as MMA goes, I think I would definitely enjoy a fight.  There are still a lot of rules there, but at least I could scratch that itch.




Regardless of the setting/competition medium you're going to have to play with rules. Even in fight clubs.

Don't let the presence of rules deter you from a more athletic avenue than your current school.

With heavy sparring and fighting, you'll learn a lot about your abilities and yourself very, very quickly.


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## Makalakumu (Apr 13, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Hahahahaha, you've never been sued, have you?  Didn't think so.
> 
> Let one guy get hurt - his wife or mom or whatever gets their panties in a twist.  Next thing you know, lawyers are involved.  And disclaimers?  Don't mean squat.  They find out who has the deepest pockets - usually the venue, because they have insurance - and then it's off to the races.



Absolutely.  Pieces of paper don't mean squat and if you have money or property, the tort system will jack for the slightest of infringements.  

That's why I always recommend that people compete in sanctioned events.  Join a combat sport and duke it out on their terms, it simply is the safest.  You can't even trust your "friends" now days.

That said, Astro, if you are seriously itching for a fight, line up an amateur fight and practice some kata bunkai that you think would be effective within whatever rule set in which you decide to conform.  It would be cool to see how you fare.

If I were going to get back into that scene, that's what I would do...and it's what I envision when I feel the itch.


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## astrobiologist (Apr 13, 2009)

That's kind of the problem when it comes to this itch...  

It's dangerous to get into real combat.  That's why we as trained martial artists don't go out and just start fights.

Well, not always...  Choki Motobu, who was a very influential character in the history of Okinawan, Japanese, and Korean Martial Arts, was known for going to the "bad side of town" and starting street fights just to test his martial arts techniques.  That's a bit radical in my opinion, but i think his reasoning was the same as the rest.  The itch is there 'cause we want to see if what we're training with and teaching really works against non-passive opponents who have a different background than our own.


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## astrobiologist (Apr 13, 2009)

maunakumu said:


> Absolutely. Pieces of paper don't mean squat and if you have money or property, the tort system will jack for the slightest of infringements.
> 
> That's why I always recommend that people compete in sanctioned events. Join a combat sport and duke it out on their terms, it simply is the safest. You can't even trust your "friends" now days.
> 
> ...


 
That's the best suggestion I've heard yet.  I think maybe part of it is that we don't have many high ranking students at my school since our school is still pretty young, so it's hard to find people who want to throw down.

I fought a full-contact kickboxing fight some time back and really enjoyed it.  It showed me how much point fighting growing up had made me too focused on tapping my opponent rather than getting solid strikes in.  Needless to say I no longer point fight.


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## Bruno@MT (Apr 13, 2009)

Sorry, no. Never felt the itch like that.

I really like grapling and I had the itch for that. In ninpo it takes a couple of years before you get to spar. So I'll have to wait for some time until I get to enjoy the energy of a groundfight again.

Anyway... About the fight club idea...
Don't. It's always funny until someone gets hurt (and then it's just hilarious) but if you are the organizer, then you will get sued when one of the participants suffers a career ending injury.

Even if you are all friends, that doesn't mean squat when the other guy is crippled and has the medical bills pouring in.

If you want to do it anyway, try to get the entire group to decide to come together for such an event instead of becoming the organizer. That would take some of the responsibility off your shoulders.
Still, if you are the one injuring someone really bad, you are hosed either way if no insurance is in place.


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## shihansmurf (Apr 13, 2009)

To the OP.

I understand completely. At the risk of coming across like a sociopath, I actively enjoy fighting. I love the sheer physicality of it, I like contesting my ability against another fighter. I am oddly comfortable with violence, partly due to my profession and partly due to general disposition. I am a nice guy, but I love to mix it up. When I was younger I would happily get into fights, but thankfully those scrapes are a thing of the past for me. I have gotten significantly smarter and more responsible as I have aged.

Nowadays I confine that sort of thing to the ring whilst geared up. I do get antsy if I have'nt boxed or sparred hard for a couple of weeks. I need the pressure release. I just feel better after a good throwdown and my training partners and I go out and grab a beer or two when the dust settles. Good times all around.

Mark


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## Nolerama (Apr 13, 2009)

I like the fight club idea, but it takes certain people to keep it going... and not sue. Some times, you just don't have those people available to train/fight.

So the inevitable progression is to find a full-contact fight and... well, fight.


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## Omar B (Apr 13, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Hahahahaha, you've never been sued, have you?  Didn't think so.
> 
> Let one guy get hurt - his wife or mom or whatever gets their panties in a twist.  Next thing you know, lawyers are involved.  And disclaimers?  Don't mean squat.  They find out who has the deepest pockets - usually the venue, because they have insurance - and then it's off to the races.



My cuz was Brooklyn DA for a bunch a years and now he teaches.  I usually mention his name and other lawyers go crawling back to their caves.  So no, I've never been sued.

But you have a point, if you have a fight club make sure it's not filled with litigious bitches.


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 13, 2009)

Omar B said:


> But you have a point, if you have a fight club make sure it's not filled with litigious bitches.



And that's my point.  Not possible.  Oh, they might be fine themselves, but how about spouses, etc?  Somebody gets hurt and misses work, and there will be lawyers involved.  It just happens.


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## jks9199 (Apr 13, 2009)

Omar B said:


> I hear what you are saying man but considering it's their own fight club they can have as little or as much protection and as little or as many rules as they wish.  Hooking up with some guys from a boxing club can even get you into a good, safe facility.  If you only invite *participants* and money is not exchanged at the door or anywhere else then it's completely legal and the law would see it as a bunch of students training with each other.
> 
> Remember, no audience, no money changing hands at the door, for refreshments or bets and it's held in a gym/dojo after business hours then it's cool.


Are you a lawyer, licensed to practice in all 50 states?

It's dangerous to state things like "this is legal" unless you really know what you're talking about.  And you haven't even thought about the issues with civil liability...  There's a reason for all those disclaimers and the paperwork you sign at tournaments or clinics.  (Which others have rightly advised aren't really too effective... except to show that people were advised and agreed to play by the rules.)  And, if it's done at the gym or dojo or training hall, with or without the direct permission -- the OWNER can be liable.  

If you're going to get together with buddies and spar -- have a solid plan.  Make sure everyone REALLY is on the same page, and has an out that will save face.  Be careful where you choose to do this, and who you invite.  And have a plan in place for dealing HONESTLY with injuries.  And I'm sure there are other factors to consider that I haven't thought of.


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## Omar B (Apr 13, 2009)

Did I say "don't have a solid plan?"  Or "don't be on the same page." Or even "invite any and everybody."  Or "have it in an unsafe place."  Don't put words in my mouth or take him for less than intelligent in doing his due diligence if her were to go through with it.  Of course he's gonna invite people who he knows, have it in a safe place and everyone will be on the same page. we are spit balling ideas for him to get his fighting jonze on, I presented an option, I'm sure he'll iron out the details if he goes through with it.

And no, I'm not a lawyer, I'm a journalist.  My cousin's the lawyer.


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## jks9199 (Apr 13, 2009)

Omar B said:


> Did I say "don't have a solid plan?"  Or "don't be on the same page." Or even "invite any and everybody."  Or "have it in an unsafe place."  Don't put words in my mouth or take him for less than intelligent in doing his due diligence if her were to go through with it.  Of course he's gonna invite people who he knows, have it in a safe place and everyone will be on the same page. we are spit balling ideas for him to get his fighting jonze on, I presented an option, I'm sure he'll iron out the details if he goes through with it.
> 
> And no, I'm not a lawyer, I'm a journalist.  My cousin's the lawyer.


Ask your cousin about manslaughter...

See if maybe it could fit an accidental death arising from a voluntarily entered, unsanctioned and uncontrolled mutual combat.

I suspect I know what he'll tell you...  And that you might not want to put things to the test unless you have five to twenty years you don't have plans for.

And that's not even considering the civil problems.


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## searcher (Apr 13, 2009)

Here is what I suggest:
http://www.dogbrothers.com/multimedia/2008_natgeo/natgeo_fightclub.html
or




 

I used to get that feeling all the time(to fight out on the street).    Then I got married and grew up.    Been shot at and shot back.    It is fine to think you want to be in a "life or death situation," but you will pee your pants if you are ever in one.   I have found that hard fighting in the school is good enough for me now.    I try to keep it as close as I can to a street fight with a margin of safety.   Dead or disabled students don't pay the bills.


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## Makalakumu (Apr 13, 2009)

I'm not trying to pick on anyone who put forth the idea of starting a psuedo-fight club or put forth an option of having an "animal day" in the dojo, but I have to make I point that I think the idea is bad.  After running a dojo for eight years and trying several times to find insurance after various companies kept changing the rules for sparring, I'm fairly certain the insurance on the building, the company, or the owner will somehow be lacking.  

I have no idea how the MMA studios do it.  My guess is that they pay through the nose and that's one of the reasons it's so expensive or that they they are running bareback.  My teacher took a terrible risk when he only had us sign some paper.  He is a property owner who basically has everything paid off and everything in order.  One serious injury and could all be gone.

I don't know what else to say.  Bill Mattocks is right, as soon as a guy can't work, all bets are off in regards to previous verbal agreements.  That's why the sanctioned combat sports are a good bet.  Even MMA is a good bet if you can find a studio that is legit.


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## Aikicomp (Apr 14, 2009)

astrobiologist said:


> From time to time, I kind of start getting a little itch for a fight. It's a weird sensation. It's like I want to spar full on with a resistant opponent just to work through my reactions and technique in a much more 'real' environment. The thing is though, I'm a pretty nice guy (I'm not intimidating or anything), I'm not pushy or rude, and I know from my training that starting a fight against an unknown combatant is a serious taboo.
> 
> I'm thinking about seeing if some local martial artists want to go for a full tilt sparring match or six. That way I can be somewhat safe while still getting into a more combative situation.
> 
> Anyone else ever get the "itch"? How do you handle it?


 
The "itch", yes I used to get it...that is until I was attacked several times and had to defend myself in a "real" enviroment to save my life. I hope I never have to go through that EVER again. After that "the itch" never came back. 

Trust me a "real" enviromental test is the last thing you ever want to have happen. You'll find out things you did not know about yourself and what you can become if need be. Very humbling and scary. 

IGNORE IT!!!! It will lead to problems, it's just ego rearing it's ugly head. IGNORE IT.

It suprises me that as a San Dan and an Instructor you would entertain such folly. You're heading down a dangerous path, better get back on track before you regret it.

Just my opinion.

Michael


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 14, 2009)

maunakumu said:


> I'm not trying to pick on anyone who put forth the idea of starting a psuedo-fight club or put forth an option of having an "animal day" in the dojo, but I have to make I point that I think the idea is bad. After running a dojo for eight years and trying several times to find insurance after various companies kept changing the rules for sparring, I'm fairly certain the insurance on the building, the company, or the owner will somehow be lacking.
> 
> I have no idea how the MMA studios do it. My guess is that they pay through the nose and that's one of the reasons it's so expensive or that they they are running bareback. My teacher took a terrible risk when he only had us sign some paper. He is a property owner who basically has everything paid off and everything in order. One serious injury and could all be gone.
> 
> I don't know what else to say. Bill Mattocks is right, as soon as a guy can't work, all bets are off in regards to previous verbal agreements. That's why the sanctioned combat sports are a good bet. Even MMA is a good bet if you can find a studio that is legit.


 
Listen to maunakumu



astrobiologist said:


> From time to time, I kind of start getting a little itch for a fight. It's a weird sensation. It's like I want to spar full on with a resistant opponent just to work through my reactions and technique in a much more 'real' environment. The thing is though, I'm a pretty nice guy (I'm not intimidating or anything), I'm not pushy or rude, and I know from my training that starting a fight against an unknown combatant is a serious taboo.
> 
> I'm thinking about seeing if some local martial artists want to go for a full tilt sparring match or six. That way I can be somewhat safe while still getting into a more combative situation.
> 
> Anyone else ever get the "itch"? How do you handle it?


 
Find a Sanshou, Muay Thai or MMA school and likely you will get all the fighting you want and then some... after you train with them for a bit, although it is likely the training will be painful. :boxing:


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## Bruno@MT (Apr 14, 2009)

I read a very insightful post today from someone mentioning that he had tested his skills in real life, and that he came out ok. But he compared it to having made it to the other side of a rickety bridge over a deep chasm. He said he'd avice people not to cross the bridge because it was dangerous, and that it would be better if they crossed a different way.
If someone knows which post I am talking about, please post the link because I have yet to thank it and I can't find it anymore.

Anyway, it was imo the most insightful remark of the discussion, and it applies here as well.

If you make it, then you will have valuable experience that many don't have. Musashi did the same thing. He proved his skills by scratching his itch and dying of old age, undefeated with dozens of kills. We are still talking about it, hundreds of years later, and his strategic insight is still valuable today.

But many of his opponents were scratching their itch too, and paid the price.


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## celtic_crippler (Apr 14, 2009)

Have you tried Gold Bond Medicated Powder?


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## Aiki Lee (Apr 14, 2009)

searcher said:


> Here is what I suggest:
> http://www.dogbrothers.com/multimedia/2008_natgeo/natgeo_fightclub.html
> or
> 
> ...


 
True, but in this day and age it is difficult to know for a fact whether or not one is a coward at heart. The only way to know with absolute certainty is to be in a situation like that, until then all we can do is guess.


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## shihansmurf (Apr 14, 2009)

I gotta second the idea of finding a good MMA or Boxing gym. The folks there will give you all the fight that you want in a safe and controlled enviornment.As much as I love to throw down, I love the idea of not going to jail even more. 

Plus, you will surely pick up a few things that will improve your skills.

Mark


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