# Tkd/tsd???



## Manny (Mar 15, 2011)

First of all perdon my english, I hope I can make you undesrtand this post. A friend of mine (TKD  1st dan black belt Ji Do kwan) and co-student of mine had to move to the north of my country and he hasn't had sucess locating a TKD dojang near his home, the only thing available is a Tang Soo Do dojang. he wanted to know how easy will be for him to do the transition from TKD to TSD given both are Korean Martial arts and both emphatize kicking.

If he got inside this TSD Dojang the sambonim told him he will be a white belt and if he shows he's good he can be promoted to the next yellow belt ( in a couple of months) and then the orange and so on.

I think it has not to be so hard to do the transition but I want to see your opininos here.

Manny


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## SahBumNimRush (Mar 15, 2011)

Depends.. . Sometimes arts so similar can be hard to transition.  Wraps, preparations, minute details of stances etc.. . can be hard to change after having a reinforced muscle memory pattern for years and years.  If the sahbumnim from the TSD school is forgiving of these details, I could see it being quite easy to transition, however if he is a hard@$$ about the details it could prove to be difficult.  

We've had students come into our dojang from other TKD schools, Isshinryu, Shotokan, Shorin Ryu, etc.. . We've been forgiving of the details, and most eventually assimilated to our techniques.  As long as you can explain why you are changing it beyond "because this is how we do it here.. ." most people are more than willing to try to change their techniques.  That said, we often learn from those other students when they can explain why they were taught other ways.  In many cases it betters the new student and the school.

Both the Jidokwan and the Moo Duk Kwan have roots in Shotokan, so depending on how traditional each of the dojangs are, they could be extremely similar in techniques.  However, if the Jidokwan dojang is following the WTF curriculum and the Tangsoodo dojang is following the SooBahkDo curriculum, then the two curriculums may be quite different.

Hope this helps.. .


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## Manny (Mar 15, 2011)

SahBumNimRush said:


> Depends.. . Sometimes arts so similar can be hard to transition.  Wraps, preparations, minute details of stances etc.. . can be hard to change after having a reinforced muscle memory pattern for years and years.  If the sahbumnim from the TSD school is forgiving of these details, I could see it being quite easy to transition, however if he is a hard@$$ about the details it could prove to be difficult.
> 
> We've had students come into our dojang from other TKD schools, Isshinryu, Shotokan, Shorin Ryu, etc.. . We've been forgiving of the details, and most eventually assimilated to our techniques.  As long as you can explain why you are changing it beyond "because this is how we do it here.. ." most people are more than willing to try to change their techniques.  That said, we often learn from those other students when they can explain why they were taught other ways.  In many cases it betters the new student and the school.
> 
> ...



Thank you Benjamin, my budy and I came from Jido Kwan however back in 1987 we chage our palgwes to taeguks and we follow since that day the KUKI/WTF way. Back in the old days we asume not so deep stances but deeper than the ones used today, for example the Ap Kubi Sogi was very wide and so the Chu-Chum sogi (horse stance) now these stances are not too deep or wide.

Manny


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## Manny (Mar 16, 2011)

Just an anology, we knew there are many Ryus in Karate, for example: Shotokan, Goju, Uechi, Wado, etc,etc. all are karate but with their diferences for example, Shotokan with wide stances, Wado someones says is a blen of karate and jujusu, etc,etc. What about a black belt in shotokan if he needs or wants to go Goju or Uechi? I won't be easy for him (given he is a good karateka) adapt to the new ryu and advance there?

Manny


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## SahBumNimRush (Mar 16, 2011)

Manny said:


> Just an anology, we knew there are many Ryus in Karate, for example: Shotokan, Goju, Uechi, Wado, etc,etc. all are karate but with their diferences for example, Shotokan with wide stances, Wado someones says is a blen of karate and jujusu, etc,etc. What about a black belt in shotokan if he needs or wants to go Goju or Uechi? I won't be easy for him (given he is a good karateka) adapt to the new ryu and advance there?
> 
> Manny




I believe this analogy fits into exactly the circumstance that your friend is in.. .


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## dancingalone (Mar 16, 2011)

Manny said:


> Just an anology, we knew there are many Ryus in Karate, for example: Shotokan, Goju, Uechi, Wado, etc,etc. all are karate but with their diferences for example, Shotokan with wide stances, Wado someones says is a blen of karate and jujusu, etc,etc. What about a black belt in shotokan if he needs or wants to go Goju or Uechi? I won't be easy for him (given he is a good karateka) adapt to the new ryu and advance there?



Your friend faces the same issues albeit on a lesser scale in my opinion.  It's hard for a Shotokan guy to adapt to Goju or Uechi.  (Yes, I know there are some systems that attempt to blend Shotokan and Goju - I'm not generally impressed with the outcome - in most cases, the beginner grade dan belts still look like they favor the Shotokan side.)

I'd imagine your friend going to Tang Soo Do will need to work on lengthening his stances as well as using more traditional chambers on his kicks.


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## puunui (Mar 16, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> I'd imagine your friend going to Tang Soo Do will need to work on lengthening his stances as well as using more traditional chambers on his kicks.




The lengthening of stances is ironic, since Tang Soo Do was originally taught using a narrow shorter stance. I remember I went to visit the Soo Bahk Do headquarters about twenty years ago when it was first built. There was a hard wood floor, and the three or four students there (all dan holders I believe) spent almost the entire time we were there going from ready stance to down block front stance. The stance was narrow, but longer. They really wanted to perfect that basic move, and the mentality was what I remembered from my Shotokan days, grinding out the same movement over and over.


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## puunui (Mar 16, 2011)

Manny said:


> First of all perdon my english, I hope I can make you undesrtand this post. A friend of mine (TKD  1st dan black belt Ji Do kwan) and co-student of mine had to move to the north of my country and he hasn't had sucess locating a TKD dojang near his home, the only thing available is a Tang Soo Do dojang. he wanted to know how easy will be for him to do the transition from TKD to TSD given both are Korean Martial arts and both emphatize kicking. If he got inside this TSD Dojang the sambonim told him he will be a white belt and if he shows he's good he can be promoted to the next yellow belt ( in a couple of months) and then the orange and so on. I think it has not to be so hard to do the transition but I want to see your opininos here. Manny




I guess it would depend on your friend's mentality and spot in the journey. If he wanted to learn a new style, then I would say go join the club and don't worry about the white belt thing. If if likes what he is doing now, then joining another club from a different style could cause internal issues. If so, it might be better for your friend to find a training partner and work out on his own. Or start his own club and find training partners that way.


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## Manny (Mar 18, 2011)

puunui said:


> I guess it would depend on your friend's mentality and spot in the journey. If he wanted to learn a new style, then I would say go join the club and don't worry about the white belt thing. If if likes what he is doing now, then joining another club from a different style could cause internal issues. If so, it might be better for your friend to find a training partner and work out on his own. Or start his own club and find training partners that way.



Well my friend is movin because of work, so I think he won't have enough time to start looking for a partner, he only want's to keep doing exercise and martial arts, offcourse he can join a fitness center but what he likes (like my self) is martial arts.

I will advise him to go ahead and try TSD he has the experience and I know I will catch all the terminology and the techs easy, he is a good guy.

Manny


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## Makalakumu (Mar 19, 2011)

Even if the art is similar, I think it's a good call to start over at white belt.  I trained in Shotokan as a kid and transitioned to Tang Soo Do when I was 20 years old.  I knew a lot of the techniques and forms that we were learning, but my teacher had his own unique way of presenting them that I had to pick up.  It was a good experience for me.  

On a related note, I've been cross training in Danzan Ryu jujutsu since 2002.  When I moved from Minnesota to Hawaii, I had earned a brown belt.  I started at my new dojo and sensei started me over at white belt.  This was the same art, but different schools, and again he had a different way of presenting the material.  I've earned my brown belt back and am now on the path to earn my shodan.  

I can't speak for anybody else, but I felt like it was a good lesson in how to check my ego.


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## Manny (Mar 23, 2011)

Well... this post makes me thinking again over the subjetc, TSD and TKD both are korean martial arts, both uses kicks mostly, TKD has evolved into full contact sport, TSD remains as it was a MA.

It has not to be so dificult do the transition from one to another if need it or want it.

Now I can say if someone wants an exelent cardiovascular workout and wants to compete TKD is the way to go but if someone wants to do a traditional martial art TSD is the way to go.

Anything you want to coment?

is anybody here who do or did both martial arts?

Manny


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## puunui (Mar 23, 2011)

maunakumu said:


> On a related note, I've been cross training in Danzan Ryu jujutsu since 2002.  When I moved from Minnesota to Hawaii, I had earned a brown belt.  I started at my new dojo and sensei started me over at white belt.  This was the same art, but different schools, and again he had a different way of presenting the material.  I've earned my brown belt back and am now on the path to earn my shodan.




Are you with the original group with Sensei McLaughlin or did you go with the break off group?


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## puunui (Mar 23, 2011)

Manny said:


> Now I can say if someone wants an exelent cardiovascular workout and wants to compete TKD is the way to go but if someone wants to do a traditional martial art TSD is the way to go. Anything you want to coment?



Taekwondo is more than just an "excellent cardiovascular workout", something for competition only.


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## ETinCYQX (Mar 23, 2011)

puunui said:


> Taekwondo is more than just an "excellent cardiovascular workout", something for competition only.



Of course it is but when compared to TSD it is much more sport-friendly and much more cardio-based. Most TKD fighters I know who compete are excellent athletes, not so much so with the sport Karate guys I know. There are certainly more people who train TaeKwonDo as a sport (myself included to an extent) than there are who train Tang Soo Do as a sport. It's not a negative reflection on either art, it's just different. I personally would not want to give up full-contact competition.


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## Makalakumu (Mar 23, 2011)

puunui said:


> Are you with the original group with Sensei McLaughlin or did you go with the break off group?



I train with Sensei McLaughlin in DZR.


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## Manny (Mar 24, 2011)

ETinCYQX said:


> Of course it is but when compared to TSD it is much more sport-friendly and much more cardio-based. Most TKD fighters I know who compete are excellent athletes, not so much so with the sport Karate guys I know. There are certainly more people who train TaeKwonDo as a sport (myself included to an extent) than there are who train Tang Soo Do as a sport. It's not a negative reflection on either art, it's just different. I personally would not want to give up full-contact competition.



You got me, puunui don't.

Right now I can say if there would be a hapkido or tsd dojang near I will try one of them because they are more self defense oriented than TKD these days.

Manny


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## puunui (Mar 24, 2011)

ETinCYQX said:


> Of course it is but when compared to TSD it is much more sport-friendly and much more cardio-based. Most TKD fighters I know who compete are excellent athletes, not so much so with the sport Karate guys I know. There are certainly more people who train TaeKwonDo as a sport (myself included to an extent) than there are who train Tang Soo Do as a sport. It's not a negative reflection on either art, it's just different. I personally would not want to give up full-contact competition.




Ok, now how about the second part of his statement, "if someone wants to do a  traditional martial art TSD is the way to go." Do you think Tang Soo Do is a more "traditional martial art", as opposed to Taekwondo, and if so, what makes Tang Soo Do more traditional?


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## puunui (Mar 24, 2011)

Manny said:


> You got me, puunui don't.



I got exactly what you meant.


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## ETinCYQX (Mar 24, 2011)

puunui said:


> Ok, now how about the second part of his statement, "if someone wants to do a  traditional martial art TSD is the way to go." Do you think Tang Soo Do is a more "traditional martial art", as opposed to Taekwondo, and if so, what makes Tang Soo Do more traditional?



I think there's a lot less tradition observed in TaeKwonDo than there is in Tang Soo Do on average. Not that TKD is any less traditional, but in a lot of dojangs the tradition is not observed. You've seen this yourself, I'm sure: what's the percentage of traditional TaeKwonDo dojangs in total? Maybe 10 percent? Less? TSD does not have a high level competition scene on the same scale, so nobody markets to it. 

Of course, TaeKwonDo as we are referring to it has only existed for around 60 years. One could argue that there's comparatively not as much tradition to observe.


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## puunui (Mar 24, 2011)

ETinCYQX said:


> I think there's a lot less tradition observed in TaeKwonDo than there is in Tang Soo Do on average. Not that TKD is any less traditional, but in a lot of dojangs the tradition is not observed. You've seen this yourself, I'm sure: what's the percentage of traditional TaeKwonDo dojangs in total? Maybe 10 percent? Less?



Depends on what you consider traditional. What do you consider traditional, as opposed to non-traditional? In my opinion, most Taekwondo dojang are still pretty traditional in that the students wear dobok, there is bowing, etc. I would say 99% or more of Taekwondo schools are what I would term traditional. The only non-traditional schools would be ones where no one wears dobok ever, no one bows, there is no belt rank or certification given, and so forth.


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## puunui (Mar 24, 2011)

ETinCYQX said:


> Of course, TaeKwonDo as we are referring to it has only existed for around 60 years. One could argue that there's comparatively not as much tradition to observe.




I would say most martial arts practitioners today are doing arts that are less than 100 years old, which means they are for the most part the product of the 20th century or late 19th century at the oldest.


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## ETinCYQX (Mar 24, 2011)

puunui said:


> Depends on what you consider traditional. What do you consider traditional, as opposed to non-traditional? In my opinion, most Taekwondo dojang are still pretty traditional in that the students wear dobok, there is bowing, etc. I would say 99% or more of Taekwondo schools are what I would term traditional. The only non-traditional schools would be ones where no one wears dobok ever, no one bows, there is no belt rank or certification given, and so forth.



You could take it that way, sure. I had sport-focused schools in mind. Should have specified.



puunui said:


> I would say most martial arts practitioners today are doing arts that are less than 100 years old, which means they are for the most part the product of the 20th century or late 19th century at the oldest.



I'm not sure but isn't Tang Soo Do much older than that?


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## Manny (Mar 25, 2011)

puunui said:


> Ok, now how about the second part of his statement, "if someone wants to do a  traditional martial art TSD is the way to go." Do you think Tang Soo Do is a more "traditional martial art", as opposed to Taekwondo, and if so, what makes Tang Soo Do more traditional?



Yes, TSD as long as I see and as long as the members here had writte is focused on self defense and less in sport competition, the TKD I know these days is competition oriented and leave the self defense thing beside or relegated, that's my experience maybe not yours but sometimes I just feel silly to do alot of flashy aerial kicks to the air of the palchaguis and not use them in a more realistic aplications.

The times I teach I try to revert the thing and teach the aspects I like the most of TKD, you already know them, for example yesatarday at the end of the class I teach wrist grabs breaks something we rarely see in a regular class with our sambonim.

Manny


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## puunui (Mar 28, 2011)

Manny said:


> Yes, TSD as long as I see and as long as the members here had writte is focused on self defense and less in sport competition, the TKD I know these days is competition oriented and leave the self defense thing beside or relegated, that's my experience maybe not yours but sometimes I just feel silly to do alot of flashy aerial kicks to the air of the palchaguis and not use them in a more realistic aplications.




I don't think that generalization is really true. For example, more and more Taekwondo dojang in my area and across the country are not participating in tournaments. Most Taekwondo dojang, at least the commerical ones, focus mainly on the martial arts aspects, or respect, discipline, etc. I also have Tang Soo Do friends whose schools are very active in the tournament circuit, especially the open point circuit. GM Chuck Norris for example made his name from tournament competition, and as far as I know he is still very tournament oriented.


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## Manny (Mar 29, 2011)

puunui said:


> I don't think that generalization is really true. For example, more and more Taekwondo dojang in my area and across the country are not participating in tournaments. Most Taekwondo dojang, at least the commerical ones, focus mainly on the martial arts aspects, or respect, discipline, etc. I also have Tang Soo Do friends whose schools are very active in the tournament circuit, especially the open point circuit. GM Chuck Norris for example made his name from tournament competition, and as far as I know he is still very tournament oriented.



That's the way you percieve things, my way of thinking is oposed. For example my sambonims dojang ocupies most of the class's time practicing kicking drills and poomsae, with very little ho shi sul, the techs sambonim teaches are sport oriented, that's why the class I teach try to be more balanced and put atention to the self defense aproach I like, for sure I teach kicking combos too but it's not the enterily class.

I have no TSD dojang in my city so it's dificult to me compare both martial arts but the majority of TKD dojangs here teach the sport side of TKD leaving almost no room for the self defense thing.

Manny


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## puunui (Mar 29, 2011)

Manny said:


> That's the way you percieve things, my way of thinking is oposed. For example my sambonims dojang ocupies most of the class's time practicing kicking drills and poomsae, with very little ho shi sul, the techs sambonim teaches are sport oriented, that's why the class I teach try to be more balanced and put atention to the self defense aproach I like, for sure I teach kicking combos too but it's not the enterily class.
> 
> I have no TSD dojang in my city so it's dificult to me compare both martial arts but the majority of TKD dojangs here teach the sport side of TKD leaving almost no room for the self defense thing.
> Manny




So you are basically giving your opinion on the comparison of Taekwondo and Tang Soo Do based on no experience with Tang Soo Do and experience with Taekwondo which is limited what goes on in your city. 

But over and above that, what makes you think that "traditional" = "self defense", at least within the Tang Soo Do context? GM LEE Won Kuk was not opposed to competition; in fact he encouraged it. For example, we hear the story of Chung Do Kwan GM UHM Woon Kyu being called "sliding side kick god". Well, he gained that nickname when they used to spar, under GM LEE Won Kuk, during class in the 40's. 

GM HWANG Kee also encouraged competition or "sport". From what I understand, GM Hwang was one of the early leaders of competition. He was host to the first international tournament in Korea (1957 I believe) and took Moo Duk Kwan members to Japan to compete, in tournaments, in the early 1960's. During the first trip to Japan, they brought back the first four chest protectors, which are now so common in Taekwondo competition. So the "tradition" in Tang Soo Do, was on competition. One step sparring, for example, was not for self defense but for competition. That's why it's called one step sparring, as opposed to one step self defense. 

And why do you think that "sport" focused techniques cannot be used for "self defense"?


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## Manny (Mar 31, 2011)

puunui said:


> So you are basically giving your opinion on the comparison of Taekwondo and Tang Soo Do based on no experience with Tang Soo Do and experience with Taekwondo which is limited what goes on in your city.
> 
> But over and above that, what makes you think that "traditional" = "self defense", at least within the Tang Soo Do context? GM LEE Won Kuk was not opposed to competition; in fact he encouraged it. For example, we hear the story of Chung Do Kwan GM UHM Woon Kyu being called "sliding side kick god". Well, he gained that nickname when they used to spar, under GM LEE Won Kuk, during class in the 40's.
> 
> ...



Again you get me wrong!!  Offcourse a sport roundhouse to the ribs can be use sucessfully in self defense, offcourse a sport ax kick can be sucessfull in the streets IF the kicker has a very good flexibilty and the correct timing etc and hoping the atacker can't grab the raising leg.

What I am telling since the begining TKD classes in the dojangs I know in my city are focused on WTF/Olimpic sparring competition and almost did not teach or practice self defense techs.

Let me tell you again, for example in the Kenpo Karate dojo where I used to crosstrain I practiced evrysingle class self defense techs, I was exposed to a total of 58 diferent self defese techs agains punches, kicks,grabs,chokes, etc,etc AND right now I can`t remember the last class I did or learn self defense techs (Ho Shi Sul) with my TKD sambonim.

Yes, in the kenpo dojo I did sparring but it wasn't the most critical part of the class, infact some guys of the kenpo dojo compite in NBL circuit.

In a full year of kenpo classes I learned 58 diferent self defense techs and when we do ho shi sul in dojang we barely see 3-4 techs.

What Am I doing? well the class I teach I try to cover more self defense and even I am incorporating kenpo techs in the TKD I am teaching, my class is not a kidie class but men class that are not so much intereted in competing at tournaments.

The way I see TKD is something more than just kicking/kicking drills/kicking combos.

Manny


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## puunui (Mar 31, 2011)

Manny said:


> Again you get me wrong!!



No, I understand exactly what you are trying to say.




Manny said:


> What I am telling since the begining TKD classes in the dojangs I know in my city are focused on WTF/Olimpic sparring competition and almost did not teach or practice self defense techs.



And then you said that Tang Soo Do was more "traditional" and more self defense oriented. I responded by saying that was not true that Taekwondo and Tang Soo Do are competition oriented. Here is a quote from GM KIM Soo about his experiences with the Moo Duk Kwan: "Back in Korea when I visited the Mooduk-Kwan down by the railroad station they were always sparring. I never saw them practicing Jang Kwon or any forms."

http://www.arlingtonkarate.com/articles/KoreanMAtruth.pdf




Manny said:


> Let me tell you again, for example in the Kenpo Karate dojo where I used to crosstrain I practiced evrysingle class self defense techs, I was exposed to a total of 58 diferent self defese techs agains punches, kicks,grabs,chokes, etc,etc AND right now I can`t remember the last class I did or learn self defense techs (Ho Shi Sul) with my TKD sambonim.



What does Kenpo Karate have to do with your original premise, which was that Taekwondo was sport oriented and Tang Soo Do was more traditional and therefore self defense oriented?


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## miguksaram (Apr 5, 2011)

ETinCYQX said:


> You could take it that way, sure. I had sport-focused schools in mind. Should have specified.


Even in sport there is still tradition that is adhered to.  What tradition do you feel is not being met in "sport" oriented schools that is being met in "non-sport" oriented schools?



> I'm not sure but isn't Tang Soo Do much older than that?


No.  It was developed by Hwang Ki in the Early 20th century.


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## miguksaram (Apr 5, 2011)

Manny said:
			
		

> Let me tell you again, for example in the Kenpo Karate dojo where I used  to crosstrain I practiced evrysingle class self defense techs, I was  exposed to a total of 58 diferent self defese techs agains punches,  kicks,grabs,chokes, etc,etc AND right now I can`t remember the last  class I did or learn self defense techs (Ho Shi Sul) with my TKD  sambonim.


I would say that is an issue with your sabu not with TKD.  GM Park, Kyoung-ho, my TKD instructor, was very self-defense oriented.  We did that way more than sparring.  My Tangsoodo school that I went to was more sport oriented.  We were always gearing up for the next tournament.


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## RobinTKD (May 22, 2011)

I have to agree with puunui in this instance, although our school is ITF TKD, we have no emphasis on competition (although there is a BIG ITF sparring circuit in Britain), and all what we study could be considered as traditional as say Kendo, Shotokan, Wing Chun and various other forms of 'ancient' martial arts. I also see a difference in the TKD I study and the TSD my sister studied for most her childhood and teenage years. Both are traditional, and mostly those traditions seem very similar, the techs on the other hand do not.


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