# BJJ question



## TMA17 (Sep 16, 2018)

So last week I attended an awesome Judo class where I observed people training for Olympic Judo and some that were there for the hobby/SD aspect.  The instructor and school was great.  LOVE watching the throws and takdowns.  It was awesome.  They also did some groundwork and good conditioning drills as you'd expect.

Tomorrow night I attend my free trial at a BJJ school.  I've read and done research on both and I like both.  It will come down to what I like to do best and also the minor commute time factor. (kids/school).  I may not like either long term in which at that point I'll probably just do Krav but I'm hoping one of these places works out for me.  I've never done any grappling.

From everything I read, it seems BJJ is great at fighting off your back once your taken down.  I questioned this school I'm attending tomorrow night about their takedown/SD aspect.  Instructor studied under Ricardo Almeida.  They told me they they focus on both sport/SD aspects and have two high level wrestlers that I could work with on takedowns.

My question is, does BJJ help in any other way other then on your back?  What if you're on top?  What about standing control if you're at a bar or subway?  Do any of the grappling aspects translate to other things then just fighting off your back?  The lack of takedowns at most BJJ schools is a big negative to me.  With Judo you get that and in a SD situation you start standing.

Once I get a feel of what this place is about tomorrow I'll take if from there.

If there were more wrestling/Catch Can places around that would probably be the best fit for me but there are none.  I backed out of going to the JKD place as it doesn't do enough live sparring.


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## Headhunter (Sep 16, 2018)

It depends on the place. In my bjj place the white belts don't do many takedowns (that could be because the hall the White belts train in doesn't have space since we have over 20 on the mat most times) but the blue belts do a lot of takedowns and there's also a Saturday class dedicated to takedowns and anyone can do it but there's not a lot of live throwing sparring again I think mainly for the space but our club is always successful in bjj competition and mma with one lad winning a fight with a guillotine from guard with only 3 months training.

But personally I wouldn't want to grapple at all in a bar or in a subway. I'd want to get to my feet straight away. Even if I was on top I'd want to get up quick or just punch them. I wouldn't be looking to pass to side control and lock up a kimura.

If you're looking for self defence I would recommend the Krav more (yes I am biased I do like Krav more) but in our Krav club the grappling we do is more beneficial for self defence. It has bjj aspects such as sweeps but it is also against common street ground attacks not submissions. E.g we've been taught how to stop someone kicking you in the head on the floor. How to move on the floor and stay covered and different ways to stNd up. There's 3. One is a general in place stand up so you can get to fighting stance. The second is the retreat get up. Where you cross a leg over and get into a sprinters position and run like hell the third is an attacking one where you crouch throw side kicks to the knee get up and explode forward. It also has pummelling in the clinch for under hooks and getting to the back and takedowns.

I know it may sound biased but I'm not telling you what to do both are good styles and either way it's better than nothing but those are my personal opinions. Take from it what you want


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## TMA17 (Sep 16, 2018)

Thanks, what you said makes a lot of sense.

I saw a Judo guy with a shirt that said:

"If MMA was fought on concreate, everyone would train Judo."


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## now disabled (Sep 16, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> Thanks, what you said makes a lot of sense.
> 
> I saw a Judo guy with a shirt that said:
> 
> "If MMA was fought on concreate, everyone would train Judo."




Don't matter if you on concrete or wherever in an SD situation ya really do not want to be going to the ground or trying to get a person to submit really imo it as headhunter says basically do the needful and get the hell away ...it the cops job to make people submit lol


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 16, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> My question is, does BJJ help in any other way other then on your back? What if you're on top?


BJJ does tend to focus on groundfighting, but you will spend just as much time working from top as from bottom.



TMA17 said:


> What about standing control if you're at a bar or subway?


That's part of BJJ, but how much it gets covered depends on the school.



TMA17 said:


> Do any of the grappling aspects translate to other things then just fighting off your back?


Yep. As I mentioned previously, having a good top game is just as important in BJJ s having a good bottom game. In addition, the concepts and many of the skills from ground grappling carry over to standing grapping.


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## TMA17 (Sep 16, 2018)

Thanks Tony!


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## Headhunter (Sep 16, 2018)

now disabled said:


> Don't matter if you on concrete or wherever in an SD situation ya really do not want to be going to the ground or trying to get a person to submit really imo it as headhunter says basically do the needful and get the hell away ...it the cops job to make people submit lol


Yep if I'm ever on my back in a fight I'm not going to try and pull him into full guard then work for a sweep as soon as I hit the floor I, doing everything I can to get up if they're on top of me, I'm going to punch, kick, bite, scratch or do whatever I can to get out of there


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## Headhunter (Sep 16, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> Thanks, what you said makes a lot of sense.
> 
> I saw a Judo guy with a shirt that said:
> 
> "If MMA was fought on concreate, everyone would train Judo."


Pretty much. Even in Mma you really don't want to be on your back because first if your on your back the judges score you as losing, second it's harder to use jiu jitsu when getting punched and elbowed in the face. It's a lot harder to set an arm bar when they're pounding you with the other arm


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## now disabled (Sep 16, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Yep if I'm ever on my back in a fight I'm not going to try and pull him into full guard then work for a sweep as soon as I hit the floor I, doing everything I can to get up if they're on top of me, I'm going to punch, kick, bite, scratch or do whatever I can to get out of there




I totally agree and as you alluded to before the best option don't go to ground at all ...actually best option is run like hell first as again you alluded to 

Yes if you are on the ground like you say priority number one get of the ground do what ya need to to do that and then leave fast 

It could be that the cross over between what happens in the dojo and real life isn't being made overly clear and folks are seeing the ground work etc and thinking cool but in reality on a street etc it not gonna be sterile like the dojo (I don't mean clean lol  mean controlled)


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## now disabled (Sep 16, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Pretty much. Even in Mma you really don't want to be on your back because first if your on your back the judges score you as losing, second it's harder to use jiu jitsu when getting punched and elbowed in the face. It's a lot harder to set an arm bar when they're pounding you with the other arm



yup and it freaking hurts too lol


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## TMA17 (Sep 16, 2018)

I agree with you.  However, I've seen quite a few street fight videos where BJJ/Judo guys subdue people so they can't do anything though either.  Judo guys can end fights quickly by slamming them on the pavement hard.


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## now disabled (Sep 16, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> I agree with you.  However, I've seen quite a few street fight videos where BJJ/Judo guys subdue people so they can't do anything though either.  Judo guys can end fights quickly by slamming them on the pavement hard.




There are many forms and ways to subdue a person and I'm not being critical at all just saying that in a real life situation that going to ground cause you know the techs isn't the best of options ....I'm not saying it won't happen just best not to and avoid it happening


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 16, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Yep if I'm ever on my back in a fight I'm not going to try and pull him into full guard then work for a sweep as soon as I hit the floor I, doing everything I can to get up if they're on top of me, I'm going to punch, kick, bite, scratch or do whatever I can to get out of there


Some people are able to get that sweep quicker than i could trying to punch/kick/bite/etc out of the situation. if they can get the sweep in a second, much smarter just doing that then trying something else.


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## Headhunter (Sep 16, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> I agree with you.  However, I've seen quite a few street fight videos where BJJ/Judo guys subdue people so they can't do anything though either.  Judo guys can end fights quickly by slamming them on the pavement hard.


Sure they can but to me it's to much of a risk because while I'm tied up with one guy his friends can come in and attack and since your tied up with one guy you can't do anything to fight the others. Or if I'm clinched up with a guy or on the ground trying a submission he can easily pull a knife out his pocket and stab you. We had a demo of that in Krav last week I was asked to put an arm bar on the instructor and try to finish it so I did and he took a plastic knife out his pocket and hit my leg with it multiple times and there was nothing I could do to stop it


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## Headhunter (Sep 16, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> Some people are able to get that sweep quicker than i could trying to punch/kick/bite/etc out of the situation. if they can get the sweep in a second, much smarter just doing that then trying something else.


A sweep will never be faster than  a punch no matter how good the grappler is in a sweep you still need to either get control of the arm or leg, get your hips in the right position get your legs in the proper position then execute the sweep. A punch is straight in no set up required. 

It's the old saying punch a black belt he becomes a brown belt, punch a brown he becomes a purple etc. again I'm not hating on bjj as I do train it and enjoy it but I can definitely see its limitations


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## TMA17 (Sep 16, 2018)

All good points and no one is wrong here.    You need both obviously.  Jon Jones recently said he loves JJ and made a comment about how he'd rather just choke someone out then trade blows with them LOL.  I love striking.  Always have.  Boxing was favorite combat sport growing up.


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## drop bear (Sep 16, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Sure they can but to me it's to much of a risk because while I'm tied up with one guy his friends can come in and attack and since your tied up with one guy you can't do anything to fight the others. Or if I'm clinched up with a guy or on the ground trying a submission he can easily pull a knife out his pocket and stab you. We had a demo of that in Krav last week I was asked to put an arm bar on the instructor and try to finish it so I did and he took a plastic knife out his pocket and hit my leg with it multiple times and there was nothing I could do to stop it



That is a con.

Next time you train take a plastic knife and show it to your instructor before class. Then yell "defend yourself" And start just shanking him with it.

It is not really the arm bar that leaves you vulnerable it is the knife from pretty much anywhere is almost undefendable. Sort off.


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## now disabled (Sep 16, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> All good points and no one is wrong here.    You need both obviously.  Jon Jones recently said he loves JJ and made a comment about how he'd rather just choke someone out then trade blows with them LOL.  I love striking.  Always have.  Boxing was favorite combat sport growing up.




Fair enough choke a person out ...but is that a sports situation or real life ? as HH said while your busy clinching up etc his mates or even some other person who thinks your the bad guy comes along and lights you up .... way better to do the needful and leave fast


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## now disabled (Sep 16, 2018)

drop bear said:


> That is a con.
> 
> Next time you train take a plastic knife and show it to your instructor before class. Then yell "defend yourself" And start just shanking him with it.
> 
> It is not really the arm bar that leaves you vulnerable it is the knife from pretty much anywhere is almost undefendable. Sort off.




Are you meaning that if a knife present then that becomes the priority?


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## Headhunter (Sep 16, 2018)

drop bear said:


> That is a con.
> 
> Next time you train take a plastic knife and show it to your instructor before class. Then yell "defend yourself" And start just shanking him with it.
> 
> It is not really the arm bar that leaves you vulnerable it is the knife from pretty much anywhere is almost undefendable. Sort off.


I have a much better chance of either blocking it, avoiding it or running away if I'm not tied up with the guy with my body pressed totally against him and and my legs right by his arms.


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## drop bear (Sep 16, 2018)

now disabled said:


> Fair enough choke a person out ...but is that a sports situation or real life ? as HH said while your busy clinching up etc his mates or even some other person who thinks your the bad guy comes along and lights you up .... way better to do the needful and leave fast



My mates would then choke his mates out though.


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## drop bear (Sep 16, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> I have a much better chance of either blocking it, avoiding it or running away if I'm not tied up with the guy with my body pressed totally against him and and my legs right by his arms.



Really? Try it and find out.


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## now disabled (Sep 16, 2018)

drop bear said:


> My mates would then choke his mates out though.



lol ok are we gonna then get down to the stage of my mom then gonna fight your mom and my dog tougher than your dog lol


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## Headhunter (Sep 16, 2018)

now disabled said:


> Fair enough choke a person out ...but is that a sports situation or real life ? as HH said while your busy clinching up etc his mates or even some other person who thinks your the bad guy comes along and lights you up .... way better to do the needful and leave fast


Tbh the chokes are probably the best submissions for self defence because you can use them while on your feet and can put the guy in front of you to stop a direct attack and you can end the fight without seriously hurting them. I mean the other submissions in a real situation you'd have to break limbs no matter. So say I'm in a bar a guy comes up and shoves me so I double leg him and break his arm. The police show up this guys off to hospital with a busted arm and provably a concussion after hitting his head from the takedown and a hurt back from hitting the hard floor. Police question you on why you did it your answer...."he pushed me" tbh I don't think that's justifiable self defence


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## Headhunter (Sep 16, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Really? Try it and find out.


I have done multiple times and I stand by what I say because I've done it. How many knife attacks have you trained in Mma class?


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## drop bear (Sep 16, 2018)

now disabled said:


> Are you meaning that if a knife present then that becomes the priority?



I could show someone a knife. Run across a room and still feel confident I can get them with it. 

So when someone produces a knife mid arm bar it is more of a parlour trick than anything.

There are better and worse ways to defend knives. That rubber knife surprise stuff is not a good way of demonstrating it.


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## Headhunter (Sep 16, 2018)

now disabled said:


> lol ok are we gonna then get down to the stage of my mom then gonna fight your mom and my dog tougher than your dog lol


Yeah and because it's so easy to apply a choke standing up on guys who are probably drugged up or drunk and full on aggressive moving forward going at someone swinging their arms and their heads going everywhere....so easy to apply a choke


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## now disabled (Sep 16, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Tbh the chokes are probably the best submissions for self defence because you can use them while on your feet and can put the guy in front of you to stop a direct attack and you can end the fight without seriously hurting them. I mean the other submissions in a real situation you'd have to break limbs no matter. So say I'm in a bar a guy comes up and shoves me so I double leg him and break his arm. The police show up this guys off to hospital with a busted arm and provably a concussion after hitting his head from the takedown and a hurt back from hitting the hard floor. Police question you on why you did it your answer...."he pushed me" tbh I don't think that's justifiable self defence




from that point I see your point ...however choke him and get it wrong and you could put him out or worse bust the neck ...I know devils advocate ...


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## Headhunter (Sep 16, 2018)

drop bear said:


> I could show someone a knife. Run across a room and still feel confident I can get them with it.
> 
> So when someone produces a knife mid arm bar it is more of a parlour trick than anything.
> 
> There are better and worse ways to defend knives. That rubber knife surprise stuff is not a good way of demonstrating it.


Why? It's a perfect example of the limitations of it just because you want to stick your fingers In your eyes and scream about how perfect Mma is doesn't make the points less valid. Fact is its way more dangerous to be in a grappling situation against a weapon that it is to be at distance. That's a fact I'm sorry if that upsets you but anyone who's not a total Mma fanboy will say the same


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## now disabled (Sep 16, 2018)

drop bear said:


> I could show someone a knife. Run across a room and still feel confident I can get them with it.
> 
> So when someone produces a knife mid arm bar it is more of a parlour trick than anything.
> 
> There are better and worse ways to defend knives. That rubber knife surprise stuff is not a good way of demonstrating it.




I kinda agree and disagree lol

if you show me a knife and I don't know you lol then I'm a moving before you start yelling or running if that makes sense ....like the 100 meter sprinter he goes on the B of the Bang as if he waits til the ANG (unless he Mr Bolt in his prime) he lost so when ya show I already be moving on the S lol


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## Headhunter (Sep 16, 2018)

now disabled said:


> from that point I see your point ...however choke him and get it wrong and you could put him out or worse bust the neck ...I know devils advocate ...


Putting him out is fine you let go he comes round in about a minute enough time to escape and your not going to break a neck with a rear naked choke otherwise it'd be a banned move in Mma. There's hundreds of guys who've gone unconscious in fights from chokes and as far as I know no necks have been broken from that


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## drop bear (Sep 16, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> I have done multiple times and I stand by what I say because I've done it. How many knife attacks have you trained in Mma class?



I taught scientific fighting Congress for a year or so back in the day which was RBSD as hell.

Otherwise we have some knife guys in our mma club.

One of our regular seminar guys Rob, is  legitimate stick and knife from one of those foreign systems. (Might be Philippino. But I am not sure)

We get street.


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## drop bear (Sep 16, 2018)

now disabled said:


> I kinda agree and disagree lol
> 
> if you show me a knife and I don't know you lol then I'm a moving before you start yelling or running if that makes sense ....like the 100 meter sprinter he goes on the B of the Bang as if he waits til the ANG (unless he Mr Bolt in his prime) he lost so when ya show I already be moving on the S lol



That's cool. Try to outrun me. Even that doesn't have great odds.

It is just not great odds.


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## now disabled (Sep 16, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Putting him out is fine you let go he comes round in about a minute enough time to escape and your not going to break a neck with a rear naked choke otherwise it'd be a banned move in Mma. There's hundreds of guys who've gone unconscious in fights from chokes and as far as I know no necks have been broken from that




I get you just I gotta a different angle I guess but I wasn't dismissing what you said


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 16, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> A sweep will never be faster than  a punch no matter how good the grappler is in a sweep you still need to either get control of the arm or leg, get your hips in the right position get your legs in the proper position then execute the sweep. A punch is straight in no set up required.
> 
> It's the old saying punch a black belt he becomes a brown belt, punch a brown he becomes a purple etc. again I'm not hating on bjj as I do train it and enjoy it but I can definitely see its limitations


Eh, I've been in situations when I started BJJ where someone would sweep me or otherwise get out from underneath much faster than I could punch my way out from bottom. Takes a few punches, especially with the lack of power when I'm on my back. Maybe I just don't punch enough in grappling though


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## now disabled (Sep 16, 2018)

drop bear said:


> That's cool. Try to outrun me. Even that doesn't have great odds.
> 
> It is just not great odds.



I wasn't meaning run necessarily what I was meaning was as you show then I'm moving and attempting to negate or neutralize ya ...yes that may involve running but it may not


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## drop bear (Sep 16, 2018)

A mate of mine saw a guy choked out in a street fight on the weekend.

He was working a pub and was breaking up a fight where this one guy was flipping out on everyone. Trying to headbutt and bite people at the same time. Stools were being waved the whole bit.

And this little dude came out of the crowd and choked him straight out.


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## drop bear (Sep 16, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> Eh, I've been in situations when I started BJJ where someone would sweep me or otherwise get out from underneath much faster than I could punch my way out from bottom. Takes a few punches, especially with the lack of power when I'm on my back. Maybe I just don't punch enough in grappling though



You probably wouldn't punch from the bottom.

Stand up, sweep, submit is our order of priorities.


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## now disabled (Sep 16, 2018)

drop bear said:


> A mate of mine saw a guy choked out in a street fight on the weekend.
> 
> He was working a pub and was breaking up a fight where this one guy was flipping out on everyone. Trying to headbutt and bite people at the same time. Stools were being waved the whole bit.
> 
> And this little dude came out of the crowd and choked him straight out.




I'm in no way saying it not a legit way at all or it wouldn't work , it just not my choice of options


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## Headhunter (Sep 16, 2018)

drop bear said:


> That's cool. Try to outrun me. Even that doesn't have great odds.
> 
> It is just not great odds.


Yeah and are you still going to chase them when they're screaming out for help where anyone including police can hear....more than likely unless it's personal no attacker is going to start sprinting after you with a knife because that'd draw attention to themselves and no attacker wants that. Victim runs they may try and chase a little but will give up fairly quick especially when they're yelling out


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## Headhunter (Sep 16, 2018)

Anyway I'm done with this now. To the op either option is good I personally think Krav Maga is overall got more useful information for self defence not just for the actual fighting but the pre fight, the tactical behaviour and how to exit a fight quick but that's my opinion. Bjj is a good sport you'll get a good workout you'll learn some cool stuff. You can't go wrong either way


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## drop bear (Sep 16, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Yeah and are you still going to chase them when they're screaming out for help where anyone including police can hear....more than likely unless it's personal no attacker is going to start sprinting after you with a knife because that'd draw attention to themselves and no attacker wants that. Victim runs they may try and chase a little but will give up fairly quick especially when they're yelling out



As opposed to the quiet peaceful stabbing you described.


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## drop bear (Sep 16, 2018)

now disabled said:


> I'm in no way saying it not a legit way at all or it wouldn't work , it just not my choice of options



Options and choice is what people miss. So they think BJJ pick a move and then basically strawman the crap out of it. And BJJ doesn't work that way.

So here is BJJ for police.





Same techniques different order of priorities.


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## now disabled (Sep 16, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Options and choice is what people miss. So they think BJJ pick a move and then basically strawman the crap out of it. And BJJ doesn't work that way.
> 
> So here is BJJ for police.
> 
> ...


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 16, 2018)

@now disabled You forgot to add your reply...all that's there is the quoted post.


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## now disabled (Sep 16, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> @now disabled You forgot to add your reply...all that's there is the quoted post.




oops it actually in the quote I didn't scroll down far enough ....


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 16, 2018)

now disabled said:


> oops it actually in the quote I didn't scroll down far enough ....


Ah, right in the middle. I see it now


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## now disabled (Sep 16, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Options and choice is what people miss. So they think BJJ pick a move and then basically strawman the crap out of it. And BJJ doesn't work that way.
> 
> So here is BJJ for police.
> 
> ...




there are always options and that requires lateral thinking 

mind you if my partner had sprayed me with pepper spray even accidentally after I'd be having words which might involve my boot and his nuts lol


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## drop bear (Sep 16, 2018)

The issue is that BJJ is just so consistently better than the more appropriate methods. That their shortcomings almost factor out.

So even if going to ground and jumping off mount for arm bars isn't the best option. If you get good enough at it you will get away with it.






But if you fundamentally can't fight. You are going to have a bad day regardless of how tactically you deal with the situation.


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## drop bear (Sep 16, 2018)

now disabled said:


> there are always options and that requires lateral thinking
> 
> mind you if my partner had sprayed me with pepper spray even accidentally after I'd be having words which might involve my boot and his nuts lol



Seen it heaps.

Big fights and cops just gassing everybody.

We had one where a cop was dropped by another spraying him and he was on the deck. And one of my guys had to stand on top of him fighting dudes so nobody stole his gun.

Industry training.


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## now disabled (Sep 16, 2018)

drop bear said:


> But if you fundamentally can't fight. You are going to have a bad day regardless of how tactically you deal with the situation




That is true


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## now disabled (Sep 16, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Seen it heaps.
> 
> Big fights and cops just gassing everybody.
> 
> ...




yeah I seen cops shoot too and ummmm well I shall refrain from commenting lol


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## wab25 (Sep 17, 2018)

So, many people here have made the point that being on the ground is not the place you want to be in a self defense situation. I agree. But, I think we might be forgetting that sometimes, its not your choice to be on the ground. There are people out there, that can take you down and pin you... and there is nothing you can do to stop them. We even see examples of this in MMA. Some guy comes in, who is a really good striker, with an amazing take down defense. Eventually, he fights someone who can take him down... and all the film study and fight prep for that one guy, doesn't stop the take down. Now what? While being on the ground may not be your ideal place to be in a situation... the choice may be made for you, whether you agree with it or not.

What BJJ brings, is a lot of great sweeps, escapes, reversals and even submissions. They also work from more positions than just guard. In my opinion, if you think that in a certain situation, the ground is the last place you want to be... that makes a better argument for studying BJJ, to learn to sweep and / or escape while on the ground, to regain your feet. (before or after choking the guy out...  ) Judo and Sambo would be good too... but for regaining your feet, I think BJJ is the king, as thats exactly what they focus on, the groundwork. If punching a guy off you, when you are on bottom worked that easily, why don't we see that happening more in MMA? I have seen a guy KOed from punches by the guy on the bottom... once. I have seen an awful lot more guys on the bottom take a serious beating because they had no real experience there.


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## now disabled (Sep 17, 2018)

wab25 said:


> So, many people here have made the point that being on the ground is not the place you want to be in a self defense situation. I agree. But, I think we might be forgetting that sometimes, its not your choice to be on the ground. There are people out there, that can take you down and pin you... and there is nothing you can do to stop them. We even see examples of this in MMA. Some guy comes in, who is a really good striker, with an amazing take down defense. Eventually, he fights someone who can take him down... and all the film study and fight prep for that one guy, doesn't stop the take down. Now what? While being on the ground may not be your ideal place to be in a situation... the choice may be made for you, whether you agree with it or not.
> 
> What BJJ brings, is a lot of great sweeps, escapes, reversals and even submissions. They also work from more positions than just guard. In my opinion, if you think that in a certain situation, the ground is the last place you want to be... that makes a better argument for studying BJJ, to learn to sweep and / or escape while on the ground, to regain your feet. (before or after choking the guy out...  ) Judo and Sambo would be good too... but for regaining your feet, I think BJJ is the king, as thats exactly what they focus on, the groundwork. If punching a guy off you, when you are on bottom worked that easily, why don't we see that happening more in MMA? I have seen a guy KOed from punches by the guy on the bottom... once. I have seen an awful lot more guys on the bottom take a serious beating because they had no real experience there.




I am slightly confused. You are going from a SD situation to a ring situation and to me that is a somewhat different scenario. 

There is every possibility that you may get taken to ground in an SD situation, I think that what was being said was avoid that and no more


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## TMA17 (Sep 17, 2018)

Good points.  You can't go wrong with BJJ/Judo/Wrestling/Boxing.  Knowing more is better for sure.

I have my first BJJ class tonight so I'm curious how it will be.  At 42 years old, BJJ would probably be easier on my body than wrestling or judo would be.

If I had to pick one, I think wrestling is proably the overall best grappling system, from what I've read, witnessed in UFC and been told by those that practice both.  Wrestling controls the fight.  They can take you down, be hard to takedown, control you, submit you or just take you down and run LOL.


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## now disabled (Sep 17, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> Good points.  You can't go wrong with BJJ/Judo/Wrestling/Boxing.  Knowing more is better for sure.
> 
> I have my first BJJ class tonight so I'm curious how it will be.  At 42 years old, BJJ would probably be easier on my body than wrestling or judo would be.
> 
> I think wrestling is proably the overall best grappling system, from what I've read, witnessed in UFC and been told by those that practice both.  Wrestling controls the fight.  They can take you down, be hard to takedown, control you, submit you or just take you down and run LOL.




That I do not know lol but good luck with the class


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## Steve (Sep 17, 2018)

drop bear said:


> A mate of mine saw a guy choked out in a street fight on the weekend.
> 
> He was working a pub and was breaking up a fight where this one guy was flipping out on everyone. Trying to headbutt and bite people at the same time. Stools were being waved the whole bit.
> 
> And this little dude came out of the crowd and choked him straight out.


Video or it didn't happen.


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## Buka (Sep 17, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> Good points.  You can't go wrong with BJJ/Judo/Wrestling/Boxing.  Knowing more is better for sure.
> 
> I have my first BJJ class tonight so I'm curious how it will be.  At 42 years old, BJJ would probably be easier on my body than wrestling or judo would be.
> 
> If I had to pick one, I think wrestling is proably the overall best grappling system, from what I've read, witnessed in UFC and been told by those that practice both.  Wrestling controls the fight.  They can take you down, be hard to takedown, control you, submit you or just take you down and run LOL.



I took my first BJJ class at 41 years old. It was a good day! I hope yours is too.


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## TMA17 (Sep 17, 2018)

Buka said:


> I took my first BJJ class at 41 years old. It was a good day! I hope yours is too.



Thank you!


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## wab25 (Sep 17, 2018)

Sorry for the confusion... there is a reason I don't write for a living.


now disabled said:


> There is every possibility that you may get taken to ground in an SD situation, I think that what was being said was avoid that and no more


The point I was trying to make was that avoiding the take down may not always be possible.



now disabled said:


> I am slightly confused. You are going from a SD situation to a ring situation and to me that is a somewhat different scenario.


You are correct. They are different situations. In a ring situation, you know who your opponent is, well ahead of time (usually). You can watch video of them and learn how good they are at taking people down and even how they take people down. You can spend the entire training camp just preparing to stop that opponents take down. Still, you end up being taken down. So, if you can't always stop the take down, with all the advantages of a ring fight: knowing who you are fighting, how they do their take downs and having time to train to specifically stop those take downs... Why should I think that I can always stop the take down of some guy I don't know anything about and could not train specifically for in a self defense situation? Since you can't stop the take down 100% of the time, in the easier (ring) situation, with all those advantages... I don't believe you can 100% stop the take down in a self defense situation. In fact, I believe it will be harder to stop a take down in a self defense situation. 

This is why I think it is more important to learn to work on the ground, especially if you are training for self defense. In the ring, you can tap out and go home. That is not always available in the self defense situation.


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## TMA17 (Sep 17, 2018)




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## now disabled (Sep 17, 2018)

wab25 said:


> Sorry for the confusion... there is a reason I don't write for a living.
> The point I was trying to make was that avoiding the take down may not always be possible.
> 
> You are correct. They are different situations. In a ring situation, you know who your opponent is, well ahead of time (usually). You can watch video of them and learn how good they are at taking people down and even how they take people down. You can spend the entire training camp just preparing to stop that opponents take down. Still, you end up being taken down. So, if you can't always stop the take down, with all the advantages of a ring fight: knowing who you are fighting, how they do their take downs and having time to train to specifically stop those take downs... Why should I think that I can always stop the take down of some guy I don't know anything about and could not train specifically for in a self defense situation? Since you can't stop the take down 100% of the time, in the easier (ring) situation, with all those advantages... I don't believe you can 100% stop the take down in a self defense situation. In fact, I believe it will be harder to stop a take down in a self defense situation.
> ...




I see where your going, I think. 

There is nothing 100% in anything


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## Hanzou (Sep 17, 2018)

If the Bjj gym you're attending is worth its salt (and I know it is), its going to teach you takedowns, throws, and striking defenses along with an extensive amount of ground fighting. In your case, the Bjj gym you're attending even has a striking class, so even that base is covered.

The general philosophy behind Bjj is relatively simple and practical: If you're in a physical confrontation with someone, it almost always leads to a clench situation. It's the clench, not the guard where Bjj is supposed to begin. Relson Gracie once said "If you don't have a good clench, then you don't have good Jiujitsu", and standard SD Bjj is supposed to teach you multiple ways of gaining the upper hand in a clench situation. From the clench you can choke, throw, or perform a takedown. However, if you happen to get taken down by your assailant, you'll have excellent tools available to quickly regain control.

However, let's talk about the (closed) guard: The guard is simply one of the greatest innovations in Martial Arts bar none. Anyone who tells you differently is lying to themselves. The guard teaches you how to gain control in one of the worst positions in a confrontation short of being under a mount, and makes it into a neutral to dominant position. From the guard, you can sweep, choke, break, pin, stand, etc. Any grappling system that doesn't teach the guard is lacking, period. It's so genius that other martial arts erroneously teaches defenses against it even though the guard itself is mainly a defensive position and you would never encounter it in a SD situation unless you're attacking and dominating someone who studies Bjj or MMA. Frankly, even if you don't go with the BJJ gym, I would at least try to attend enough classes where you learn the guard. It's vital for SD IMO.

In the end, I never want to be on the ground in a SD situation either, which is why I practiced the MA that allows me to control that range of fighting so if I ever end up on the ground I can control the situation and get into a dominant position as quickly as possible.


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## pdg (Sep 17, 2018)

Buka said:


> I took my first BJJ class at 41 years old.



I didn't know BJJ had been going that long


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## Buka (Sep 17, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> If the Bjj gym you're attending is worth its salt (and I know it is), its going to teach you takedowns, throws, and striking defenses along with an extensive amount of ground fighting. In your case, the Bjj gym you're attending even has a striking class, so even that base is covered.
> 
> The general philosophy behind Bjj is relatively simple and practical: If you're in a physical confrontation with someone, it almost always leads to a clench situation. It's the clench, not the guard where Bjj is supposed to begin. Relson Gracie once said "If you don't have a good clench, then you don't have good Jiujitsu", and standard SD Bjj is supposed to teach you multiple ways of gaining the upper hand in a clench situation. From the clench you can choke, throw, or perform a takedown. However, if you happen to get taken down by your assailant, you'll have excellent tools available to quickly regain control.
> 
> ...



I so loved closed guard. More than ice cream, even.


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## TMA17 (Sep 17, 2018)

The class was great.  Warm up drills were great.  Started off with some basic striking.  Then we moved to takedown from a front bear hug.  We then worked on 3 or 4 ground moves (I can't remember the names or positions.  It's still all so new to me). 

I really enjoyed it so I signed up.  It's month to month so at any point I need to stop I can.  Instructor was great and everyone there was really nice. 

I've never done any grappling at all other than wrestling my younger brother when I was about 10 years old LOL.  So this was very new and very different.  I don't have much martial arts experience other than WC for a few months and a brief 3 month MMA gym where we worked on striking.

What I liked most about it, and this may make no sense but it's how I perceived it, is the actual resistance and close quarter aspect of it.  Feeling what it's like to be taken down or having to fight out of a move.  Hip movement and just being dynamic on the ground.  That sense of realism seems very valuable.  My .02.


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## Buka (Sep 17, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> The class was great.  Warm up drills were great.  Started off with some basic striking.  Then we moved to takedown from a front bear hug.  We then worked on 3 or 4 ground moves (I can't remember the names or positions.  It's still all so new to me).
> 
> I really enjoyed it so I signed up.  It's month to month so at any point I need to stop I can.  Instructor was great and everyone there was really nice.
> 
> ...



You are going to have _soooo_ much fun. Good for you, bro.


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## hoshin1600 (Sep 19, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> It's so genius that other martial arts erroneously teaches defenses against it even though the guard itself is mainly a defensive position and you would never encounter it in a SD situation unless you're attacking and dominating someone who studies Bjj or MMA.


this is not really accurate.  back in the 70"s as a kid we would wrestle all the time and the guard comes naturally (not as refined as it is now but still the same guard)  its so natural in fact that men and women have been taking up that position for about 200 thousand years.


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## Hanzou (Sep 19, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> this is not really accurate.  back in the 70"s as a kid we would wrestle all the time and the guard comes naturally (not as refined as it is now but still the same guard)  its so natural in fact that men and women have been taking up that position for about 200 thousand years.



Yes, its been a basic grappling move that's been used for centuries in wrestling. However it was Bjj that revolutionized the move to what it is today.


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## Buka (Sep 20, 2018)

Completed unrelated, but wanted to share this story because it's kind of funny. Under our uniform shirts we have to wear white, dark blue of black t-shirts. My clothes are packed as I'm heading out to vacation next week. I had to find an old white t-shirt from my closet.

Last night I was working the TSA checkpoint when a couple of TSA folks came up to me and told me there were two "really scary looking guy"s coming through. I asked, "and are these two really scary looking guys doing anything wrong?" They said no, but just wanted me to be aware.

I finally see them. They're big, in shape, and serious looking. And I know they're Brazilian, and I know they're Jits guys, I can just tell. As they approach I see their backpack with a Carlos Gracie logo. As they're about to walk by me, I open my uniform shirt and say, Ola, fellas.




 


Oh, we were like long lost brothers, high fiving, hugging, laughing, talking jits and what not. The same two TSA folks came up to me again a few minutes later. I told them the guys were my cousins Rafael and Enzo. And that they thought you guys were sort of cute.


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