# Choking - whats your method



## silatman (Jun 17, 2005)

How does everyone perform a rear naked choke?
Can you describe it and why you think it works as I've not seen anyone else do a choke like we do and I'm wondering why we do it differently.
Thanks.


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## redfang (Jun 17, 2005)

It's pretty straight forward, sink in your hooks, one arm wraps the neck, other arm comes around behind the head, apply as needed.  It works because you are cutting off blood flow to the head.


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## searcher (Jun 17, 2005)

redfang said:
			
		

> It's pretty straight forward, sink in your hooks, one arm wraps the neck, other arm comes around behind the head, apply as needed. It works because you are cutting off blood flow to the head.


Same for me and my students, but we try to avoid the use of it.   It can do some serious damage to your opponent,  we try to use the cross chokes.


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## Flamebearer (Jun 17, 2005)

redfang said:
			
		

> It works because you are cutting off blood flow to the head.


I thought the goal of a choke was to cut off air flow, not blood flow...

For rear choke, grab neck in hands from behind, sink fingers into soft area between  ... *forgets name* ... those two bones that run across the front of your shoulders.

Wrapping the arm around the neck is what I'm accustomed to calling a head lock.

-Flamebearer


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## Gemini (Jun 17, 2005)

Flamebearer said:
			
		

> For rear choke, grab neck in hands from behind, sink fingers into soft area between ... *forgets name* ... those two bones that run across the front of your shoulders.


Collar bones?


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## Blindside (Jun 17, 2005)

A couple of terminology differences going on here.

Here is a good article on chokes and strangles and what is actually occurring physiologically.  This article was originally posted here on MartialTalk if I recall correctly.

Lamont


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## Loki (Jun 17, 2005)

Flamebearer said:
			
		

> I thought the goal of a choke was to cut off air flow, not blood flow...


Some chokes are designed to cut off circulation to a certain area. We call them "blood chokes".


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## arnisador (Jun 17, 2005)

Flamebearer said:
			
		

> I thought the goal of a choke was to cut off air flow, not blood flow...


 I call that a choke, and when the goal is to cut off the blood flow I call it a strangle. But, most people seem to just use 'choke' for both.


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## Makalakumu (Jun 17, 2005)

I personally like it when I can get sankaku.  If I've got someone in my guard and I can isolate an arm, I may sacrifice an opposite leg to let the uki put himself into it.  From there its snap, roll and tap.


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## searcher (Jun 17, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> I call that a choke, and when the goal is to cut off the blood flow I call it a strangle. But, most people seem to just use 'choke' for both.


Either way, air or blood, you are choking off the flow.


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## MJS (Jun 17, 2005)

When doing the initial wrap with your arm, its important to make sure that everything is going on tight.  If everything is done properly, the person having it done to them, should already start to feel discomfort before the other guy begins to squeeze.

As for the air vs. blood choke.  Anytime you're doing one thats cutting off air, you're risking serious injury to the other person.  The pressure should be felt on the side not the front of the neck.

Mike


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## silatman (Jun 17, 2005)

As I thought not one of these examples are like the choke that we do.

Instead of bringing the arm around the neck and the other behind the head all we do is insert the front hand only as far as the trachea so that the radial is pressing on the front and the thumb then sits against the side of the neck. The other hend then slides underneath the first hand palms together thumbs on opposite sides. As mentioned above extreme close contact must be maintained at all times and your leading shoulder should sit behind the head and your head should be on the same side as your rear hand, this encloses the head and doesnt allow any movement. To apply the choke all you need do is to turn the hands clockwize so that the radial pushes into the trachea, dont attempt to squeeze using the arms just maintain a tight control over the head.
This choke is instantaneous and needs to be done progressively in training as blackout occurs VERY FAST and we have had instances of people losing their voices for days. Noobs be careful!
Hopefully people understand my description and I would be happy for everyone to give me some feedback on this method.
It seems to me to be such an easy method and so effective I wonder why it is not used instead of the sleeper hold method that is just so much clumsyer and harder to get to.
Have a go and tell me what you think.


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## bignick (Jun 17, 2005)

Sounds a lot like a good hadaka jime, there should be little squeezing action with your arms, you simply stabilize the head like described above and use the small circle wrist movement that Wally Jay made so famous...


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## bignick (Jun 17, 2005)

The basic way it's taught is at our school is to place your left hand palm up on your opponents shoulder, than take your right hand and slide it across your opponents neck to move the muscle in your neck (forgot the name, Sternocleidomastoid?) to allow better access to the vagus and phrenic nerves and the carotid artery and jugular.  Then the afore mentioned twisting action with the wrists applies pressure to the collection of nerves and also the baroreceptors, which causes a sudden loss of blood pressure to the brain.


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## bignick (Jun 17, 2005)

Another quick note...when practicing strangles turn your head to the side to avoid pressure on your windpipe...safer, and saves you a lot of pain and discomfort..


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## Han-Mi (Jun 17, 2005)

arm raps around neck and grabs opposite shoulder. squeze arms together pushing the bones of your forearm into the neck and keep it tight as to partially if not completely cut off air supply as well as blood supply.


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## Shaolinwind (Jun 17, 2005)

silatman said:
			
		

> How does everyone perform a rear naked choke?


Rear Naked Choke has got to be the most perfect vehicle for a gross and bizzarre sexual innuendo and I just can't think of a good one. I am getting slow. :boing2:


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## bignick (Jun 18, 2005)

It's late...don't worry about it...


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## silatman (Jun 18, 2005)

bignick said:
			
		

> Sounds a lot like a good hadaka jime, there should be little squeezing action with your arms, you simply stabilize the head like described above and use the small circle wrist movement that Wally Jay made so famous...


Is this a common technique and how do you rate its effectiveness as opposed to the sleeper choke


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## bignick (Jun 18, 2005)

hadaka jime just means naked choke/strangle....probably one of the first strangle techniques tought to judo practitioners, very common, and like all strangles...once correctly applied....

nighty night....


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## MJS (Jun 18, 2005)

silatman said:
			
		

> As I thought not one of these examples are like the choke that we do.
> 
> Instead of bringing the arm around the neck and the other behind the head all we do is insert the front hand only as far as the trachea so that the radial is pressing on the front and the thumb then sits against the side of the neck. The other hend then slides underneath the first hand palms together thumbs on opposite sides. As mentioned above extreme close contact must be maintained at all times and your leading shoulder should sit behind the head and your head should be on the same side as your rear hand, this encloses the head and doesnt allow any movement. To apply the choke all you need do is to turn the hands clockwize so that the radial pushes into the trachea, dont attempt to squeeze using the arms just maintain a tight control over the head.
> This choke is instantaneous and needs to be done progressively in training as blackout occurs VERY FAST and we have had instances of people losing their voices for days. Noobs be careful!
> ...



Losing their voice for days?  You wonder why it is not used as much as the sleeper?  As I said in my post, in this case, you're going against the front of the neck, therefore putting your partner at some serious risk.  Yes, there are many different methods of choking, but by doing this method you're putting people at some serious risk, with the potential for permanent injury.  If proper instruction on the sleeper is understood, its not as clumsy as one would think.

Mike


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## silatman (Jun 18, 2005)

MJS said:
			
		

> Losing their voice for days?  You wonder why it is not used as much as the sleeper?  As I said in my post, in this case, you're going against the front of the neck, therefore putting your partner at some serious risk.  Yes, there are many different methods of choking, but by doing this method you're putting people at some serious risk, with the potential for permanent injury.  If proper instruction on the sleeper is understood, its not as clumsy as one would think.
> 
> Mike


This was after a full class of the technique and a lesser rank applied it to him with a little bit too much gusto, its a risky business we're in and the student was then talked to about the meaning of progressive.
It is definately a better choke than the sleeper version and our system is about life saving self defence not something you do in "normal" fight so I believe that the technique is valid.
I say it is better than the sleeper, in my opinion I might add, because you dont have to get as deep to apply and the grab isnt as hard to get to. By just clasping hands you get a complete grip that is very hard to break whereas if you are reaching for an arm the grip only goes halfway around and so is easier to break. Granted once a choke is on its on, but we get taught effeciency of motion as a primary stragety.
The reason for this thread was to get different versions and ideas so I do appreciate the feedback.


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## MJS (Jun 18, 2005)

silatman said:
			
		

> This was after a full class of the technique and a lesser rank applied it to him with a little bit too much gusto, its a risky business we're in and the student was then talked to about the meaning of progressive.
> It is definately a better choke than the sleeper version and our system is about life saving self defence not something you do in "normal" fight so I believe that the technique is valid.
> I say it is better than the sleeper, in my opinion I might add, because you dont have to get as deep to apply and the grab isnt as hard to get to. By just clasping hands you get a complete grip that is very hard to break whereas if you are reaching for an arm the grip only goes halfway around and so is easier to break. Granted once a choke is on its on, but we get taught effeciency of motion as a primary stragety.
> The reason for this thread was to get different versions and ideas so I do appreciate the feedback.



I agree...this thread is getting different versions and you're welcome for the feedback.    If that choke is something you choose to do, thats fine.  I'm simply pointing out the dangers of that type of choke.  As I said in another post, having a good knowledge of the sleeper is key.  If its understood how its * properly * applied, its easier than it seems.  Also if you could explain what you mean in this paragraph:




> whereas if you are reaching for an arm the grip only goes halfway around and so is easier to break.



Mike


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## redfang (Jun 18, 2005)

Unless I'm in a lethal force type of situation I wouldn't try to attack the trachea.  The wind pipe can swell shut hours after the initial choking incident and cause suffocation.  It is also very vunerable to damage that will cause immediate suffocation even if the hold is taken off.  If competeing or training my target is the sides of the neck and the carotid and jugular arteries there.  Even this type of hold can be fatal quickly, but it is much safer in many ways than attacking the wind pipe.


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## Gene Williams (Jun 18, 2005)

My favorite method of choking is to get a big mouthful of peanuts, then take a huge swallow of water or coke to try and wash down the peanuts. Snarfing a tablespoon of crunchy peanut butter also works well...oh, wait, you meant choking someone else...sorry.:asian:


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## bignick (Jun 18, 2005)

Reminds me of my buddy's yawn technique....as soon as the attacker comes at you, yawn, and when he yawns in sympathetic response....jump him!!!


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## Franc0 (Jun 19, 2005)

Gene LeBell taught me a guillotine choke similar to the one described by Hi-Man, and everyone I've shown it to said it feels like their neckbones are going to explode as well as the choking/strangulation effect. I was told by Sensei Gene that particular choke was outlawed in competition due to several deaths. I used it once while bouncing, the guy was a freakin' bull, and took several of us to take him down, but once the choke was put on, he was out in a matter of seconds.

Franco


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## still learning (Jun 19, 2005)

Hello, We just practice two ways for the rear choke.  The sleeper hold and the  middle forearm (bone part) on the throat with two hands holding (clasping) your body close to his and squeezed.  Also we have some variations of the rear depending on you position.  Tapping is a good way to let the other person release the hold.

 Don't forget to practice getting out of these holds?  Maybe this should be practice more?   .......Ugh......Aloha


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## sgtmac_46 (Jun 19, 2005)

Flamebearer said:
			
		

> I thought the goal of a choke was to cut off air flow, not blood flow...
> 
> For rear choke, grab neck in hands from behind, sink fingers into soft area between ... *forgets name* ... those two bones that run across the front of your shoulders.
> 
> ...


There are two kinds of chokes, air chokes (such as you are describing) and blood chokes, such as the hadaka-jimi (rear naked choke) previously described.  Of the two, blood chokes are quicker and more effective as it directly cuts off oxygen to the brain.  Air chokes require 30 to 60 seconds or more application before unconciousness results.  Further, there is less risk with blood chokes, as the airway can be damaged by air chokes.

These are different from head locks and neck cranks, which are typically applied for the purposes of causing pain.

As far as my preferred method, it's very much like has already been described.  Wrap one arm around the neck, resting esophegus in the bend of the elbow, and applying pressure to both sides of the neck.  The other arm I wrap over my hand and behind their head so I can create a sissoring motion using my chest for power.  It works in three to five seconds.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jun 19, 2005)

masterfinger said:
			
		

> Gene LeBell taught me a guillotine choke similar to the one described by Hi-Man, and everyone I've shown it to said it feels like their neckbones are going to explode as well as the choking/strangulation effect. I was told by Sensei Gene that particular choke was outlawed in competition due to several deaths. I used it once while bouncing, the guy was a freakin' bull, and took several of us to take him down, but once the choke was put on, he was out in a matter of seconds.
> 
> Franco


 Gene is the man.


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## silatman (Jun 20, 2005)

MJS said:
			
		

> I agree...this thread is getting different versions and you're welcome for the feedback.    If that choke is something you choose to do, thats fine.  I'm simply pointing out the dangers of that type of choke.  As I said in another post, having a good knowledge of the sleeper is key.  If its understood how its * properly * applied, its easier than it seems.  Also if you could explain what you mean in this paragraph:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


From what I've seen of the sleeper choke doesn't one arm go around the neck at the front and the other go around the back of the head then the front hand grabs the bicep of your rear arm so that leverage can be applied. 
If this is what happens then unless you have massive hands or a real small bicep you cant get a complete grip. Where as if you have one hand grabbing another hand the grip would have to be stronger.


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## MJS (Jun 20, 2005)

silatman said:
			
		

> From what I've seen of the sleeper choke doesn't one arm go around the neck at the front and the other go around the back of the head then the front hand grabs the bicep of your rear arm so that leverage can be applied.
> If this is what happens then unless you have massive hands or a real small bicep you cant get a complete grip. Where as if you have one hand grabbing another hand the grip would have to be stronger.



The bicep is one area that you can grab.  During the initial grab, you want your first arm to go in as deep as possible.  Grabbing up near your collar is going to be much tighter.  You can also grab onto your own shirt or gi to help secure this grip.  As I said earlier, if this is being done properly, the person should start to feel pressure even before the other starts to squeeze.  

Mike


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## sgtmac_46 (Jun 22, 2005)

MJS said:
			
		

> The bicep is one area that you can grab. During the initial grab, you want your first arm to go in as deep as possible. Grabbing up near your collar is going to be much tighter. You can also grab onto your own shirt or gi to help secure this grip. As I said earlier, if this is being done properly, the person should start to feel pressure even before the other starts to squeeze.
> 
> Mike


That's my personal preference. I have seen both used. LVNR (Lateral Vascular Neck Restraint) utilizes the concept whereby the hand is grabbed for leverage. I've been trained in LVNR, but I still prefer Hadaka-Jime like my old Judo instructor taught it. Wrap the arm around the neck, place the wrapping arm hand in the crook of the opposite arm, and place that hand in the back of their head of leverage. When it's done this way, you don't even really have to apply any torque before most people tap. Of course with my old Judo instructor, it used to feel like he was choking me and simultaneously crushing my spine with his support hand.  Either way, however, seems to work well when applied properly.


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