# Full Nelson WWE wrestler caught on tape in parking lot scuffle



## Brian King (Feb 10, 2009)

Full Nelson WWE wrestler caught on tape in parking lot scuffle

http://www.comcast.net/data/fan/html/popup.html?v=1027353716&pl=1027301079.xml&plc=1027301079&launchpoint=Cover&cid=fancover&attr=default_headline&config=/config/common/fan/default.xml

A parking lot scuffle caught on tape. Tough to see the action but I think it is educational for a couple of reasons. I noticed the mob separated and created space when the WWE wrestler decided he had enough. This shows that in my opinion the individuals in the mob were angry but were under control of the mob mentality and were brave and vocal as long as they had the anonymity of the mob, but the moment that one was singled out they all subconsciously realized that they themselves were also in danger and all but one or three backed up a good three or four steps. Also educational in my opinion was the talking head attorneys giving the pro and cons. It gives further evidence of the need for avoidance, the need to be able to articulate yourself out of trouble and the need to be the first to call the police after an incident even if you must leave the scene of that incident. 
Also educational if you happen to be in the security field is how it is your fault LOL

The clips cycle thru and there is also a good short interview with that Airline pilot that put his plane into the Hudson saving all those lives. Some lessons there for martial artists.

There is also an interesting clip on medicinal pot. Not really martial art related but interesting regardless.

Regards
Brian King

Moderators please feel free in moving this thread if there is a better area to post. I debated the security sub forum but decided there are more issues that might be discussed so posted in the general section.
Bri


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Feb 10, 2009)

I don't understand why he did not just get into the car and lock the doors and windows. He most likely could have drove off and avoided this whole thing.


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## terryl965 (Feb 10, 2009)

Was that Chris Jericho?


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## Kreth (Feb 10, 2009)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> I don't understand why he did not just get into the car and lock the doors and windows. He most likely could have drove off and avoided this whole thing.


They mentioned in the commentary that someone climbed onto the hood of the car to prevent him from leaving. Given the usual mentality of people who just don't get that wrestling is scripted, I wouldn't be surprised if the woman attacked him.


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## Brian King (Feb 10, 2009)

*terryl965 wrote*


> "Was that Chris Jericho?"


 
I think that was the name used by the news reporters. I do not know for sure (I do not watch wrestling on TV)

*JadecloudAlchemist wrote:*


> "I don't understand why he did not just get into the car and lock the doors and windows. He most likely could have drove off and avoided this whole thing."


 
I cannot speak for him but if what the reporters are saying is correct the mob surrounded his vehicle and was beating on the windshields. It is certainly one method of protection to stay inside the vehicle behind the metal and glass but once the vehicle stops moving or is not moving the protection it offers is limited. I myself hate being stuck while in a situation. I prefer mobility think WWI trench warfare vs 4th Gen warfare. I remember the video of the LA riots when the mob pulled that trucker out of his vehicle and beat him over the head with concrete blocks and bottles. If you are not willing to use the vehicle as a weapon inside or under it is often not the place to be in my opinion and experience. It gives the mob a stationary focus and beating on a vehicle is mentally easier(inanimate object) than beating on a human so allows the mob a method to ramp up and get to the point that they can beat on another human over coming that initial reluctance. 

Regards
Brian King


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## MA-Caver (Feb 10, 2009)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> I don't understand why he did not just get into the car and lock the doors and windows. He most likely could have drove off and avoided this whole thing.


 Ego



Kreth said:


> They mentioned in the commentary that someone climbed onto the hood of the car to prevent him from leaving. Given the usual mentality of people who just don't get that wrestling is scripted, I wouldn't be surprised if the woman attacked him.



Some folks DO take wrestling (the fake kind) far too seriously. I had a roomie who insisted that it was real...  

Thoughts as watching this video... 
He was surrounded by a mob and he SHOULD have locked himself in his car and waited until it was safe for him to drive off... i.e. the guy getting out of the way or at least calling the police and waiting for their arrival. That'd been the smart thing to do. He's NOT a professional fighter!! Actor yes but not a fighter. I'd doubt that he'd come out on top if it got into a "battle royale". 
The security were moving far too slow and just being pushy-shovey ... but then again an angry mob can be quite intimidating ... especially if you're unarmed... which seem to be what these particular security were... the atypical concert/venue t-shirt muscled security guards with the words stenciled on their shirts. 

He was partially in his car and could've made it all the way in and shut the door... which is what he SHOULD'VE done... but as I mentioned... ego... after all he does have that tuff guy persona to protect.


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## JadeDragon3 (Feb 10, 2009)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> I don't understand why he did not just get into the car and lock the doors and windows. He most likely could have drove off and avoided this whole thing.


 
According to the news woman someone threw themself in front of his car so he couldn't drive off.  Thats when they started beating on his car.  If she spit on him like they said she might have done then she deserved to get hit.


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## JadeDragon3 (Feb 10, 2009)

terryl965 said:


> Was that Chris Jericho?


 
Yep.  The Iatolah of Rock n' Rolla as he calls himself.  He's the lead singer of Fozzy as well as wrestler.


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## Kreth (Feb 10, 2009)

JadeDragon3 said:


> According to the news woman someone threw themself in front of his car so he couldn't drive off.  Thats when they started beating on his car.  If she spit on him like they said she might have done then she deserved to get hit.


You may want to brush up on your legal knowledge. You could probably get away with pushing someone away from you if you thought they were going to spit on you, but you are not legally justified to swat them, even if they do.


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## JadeDragon3 (Feb 10, 2009)

Spitting on someone is considered assault. I worked in a prison and if an inmate spit on any of the c.o.'s it was an assault charge. If they had HIV it was considered attempted murder.  Weather it is legal or not if someone spits on me I'm going to hit em'.  Plain and simple.  If I get arressted in the proccess then so be it but I won't tolerate being spit on.


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## LuckyKBoxer (Feb 10, 2009)

You people advocating that he should have gotten into the car and waited it out are morons. It is very simple to break the windows, and this crowd was out of control, and becoming more nad more hostile. I think that woman should be sued, I think the people that were there should be charged with rioting, unlawful detainment, and harassment. These worthless people are the worst kind of "Fans" heckling someone is one thing, to surround his vehicle, not allow him to leave, close the gap between them and him, and start hurdling insults, vulgarities, and spit is quite another, I would not have faulted him for defending himself by grabbing a tire iron and start waylaying the crowd. 
I am completely tired of hearing people argue that words are not assault, that closing the gap is not assault, that preventing someone to elave like this is not assault, that celebrities have to grin and bear it due to their status. Why the hell should anyone be detained because a group of worthless turds think they have the right to harass another person.


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## JadeDragon3 (Feb 10, 2009)

LuckyKBoxer said:


> You people advocating that he should have gotten into the car and waited it out are morons. It is very simple to break the windows, and this crowd was out of control, and becoming more nad more hostile. I think that woman should be sued, I think the people that were there should be charged with rioting, unlawful detainment, and harassment. These worthless people are the worst kind of "Fans" heckling someone is one thing, to surround his vehicle, not allow him to leave, close the gap between them and him, and start hurdling insults, vulgarities, and spit is quite another, I would not have faulted him for defending himself by grabbing a tire iron and start waylaying the crowd.
> I am completely tired of hearing people argue that words are not assault, that closing the gap is not assault, that preventing someone to elave like this is not assault, that celebrities have to grin and bear it due to their status. Why the hell should anyone be detained because a group of worthless turds think they have the right to harass another person.


 
Wow.  That sounds like something that I would have posted.  I see there is someone here with the same views I do.  Thats a refreshing change.


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## LuckyKBoxer (Feb 10, 2009)

JadeDragon3 said:


> Wow. That sounds like something that I would have posted. I see there is someone here with the same views I do. Thats a refreshing change.


 
BTW I am Gracie Barra Encinitas LOL
I guess more then a few things in common.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Feb 10, 2009)

> You people advocating that he should have gotten into the car and waited it out are morons


 
Hey can you express yourself in a manner without calling people names?

I think he should have tried to drive around the person that jumped in front of his car. Most of the people in the video show them next to the driver side he could have gone back into the car and drove off. 

I personally do not think it is wise to go off and fight an angry mob of 10 in a street fight but hey if you feel thats the best approach then that is your opinion just don't go slinging mud at others for having theirs.


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## MJS (Feb 10, 2009)

"Hey can you express yourself in a manner without calling people names?"

Yes, I second that.  There will be varying opinions on the situation.  Perhaps, instead of calling someone a moron, ask them why they feel sitting in the car to wait it out is better than leaving.


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## LuckyKBoxer (Feb 10, 2009)

MJS said:


> "Hey can you express yourself in a manner without calling people names?"
> 
> Yes, I second that. There will be varying opinions on the situation. Perhaps, instead of calling someone a moron, ask them why they feel sitting in the car to wait it out is better than leaving.


 
Listen its a dangerous and stupid suggestion. Its Naive, and dependant on others doing the right thing, when they have already started not doing the right thing, BTW a temptation of being in a vehicle, when people are mobbing it is to start it up and run people over, what do you think would have happened then? 
Listen, I do not need to ask someone who has tasted a turd what it tastes like to know I do not want to try it. The same follows here.
I am perfectly in my rights of free speech, to express myself in the most direct and honest way I know how. I suggest instead of trying to be politically correct you might try the same.


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## Kreth (Feb 10, 2009)

LuckyKBoxer said:


> I am perfectly in my rights of free speech, to express myself in the most direct and honest way I know how. I suggest instead of trying to be politically correct you might try the same.


Your free speech does not include the right to disregard the rules of this forum, as the nice moderator attempted to hint at...
I suggest you throttle back the attitude, or your stay here might be a brief one.


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## Archangel M (Feb 10, 2009)

Somehow I dont think that attacking a mob is a great option either. You can start up your car and start rolling slowly. People will move out of the way.

He wasnt "defending himself against a mob". He was pissed off at one woman. A 250lb wrestler who makes his money being an intimidating bad guy (and making money off of getting people to believe it) vs. a woman who believes the hype? I fall in against the wrestler.


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## LuckyKBoxer (Feb 10, 2009)

Kreth said:


> Your free speech does not include the right to disregard the rules of this forum, as the nice moderator attempted to hint at...
> I suggest you throttle back the attitude, or your stay here might be a brief one.


 
Fair enough I should have used the term ignorant rather then moron to describe the understanding of the situation, rather then the nature of the poster. 

Also 250 pounds? LOL you have obviously not met the guy... they say hes 220ish... I say hes 195 at best. Regardless, I am positive after that small video that things would have gotten much worst had he gotten in the vehicle and either waited or tried to drive off.


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## seasoned (Feb 10, 2009)

This whole situation is why you have security around you. They, were not doing their job, plain and simple.


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## MA-Caver (Feb 10, 2009)

LuckyKBoxer said:


> Listen its a dangerous and stupid suggestion. Its Naive, and dependent on others doing the right thing, when they have already started not doing the right thing, BTW a temptation of being in a vehicle, when people are mobbing it is to start it up and run people over, what do you think would have happened then?
> Listen, I do not need to ask someone who has tasted a turd what it tastes like to know I do not want to try it. The same follows here.
> I am perfectly in my rights of free speech, to express myself in the most direct and honest way I know how. I suggest instead of trying to be politically correct you might try the same.



There are ways to tell someone that you disagree with their ideas. There are ways to tell someone that you disagree with their ideas without belittling them or calling them names. I for one do not mind being told that I'm wrong or that it's in someone's opinion that I have a stupid idea... I DO mind being called a moron and I'm sure others here feel the same way. 
If I'm to be told that I'm wrong then I will want to know why. 
You certainly are within your rights to free speech here as long as it's respectful and does not trample upon the personal dignity of someone else's intelligence. 
The only time that you would be way out of order would be to express; racist, sexist, or any other bigoted commentary along with your statements. Calling others "morons" is a slight upon the intelligence of this (on line) community. 

Regarding the act of getting in the relative safety of one's vehicle, particularly in face of being heavily outnumbered and an angry mob at that which is what that actor was faced with, I'll add to your own ideas that he may be tempted to start the car up and run someone over. 
If the actor had done that then he'd be certainly guilty of assault with a deadly weapon but if he himself *isn't* prone to uncontrolled acts of violence, i.e. turning on the car and running people over as you say...  then he would know to simply sit in the car, get on the phone to the police and request for help. Any damaged wrought upon the car can be charged to the folks via credible witnesses and likely the video. 
I don't become dependent upon others to do the right thing when it comes down to me. I'll take care of myself first and foremost and if that means getting to a place of safety, then by all means I will. If others DO the right thing by me (helping, protecting, defending me when I'm heavily outnumbered) then praise to them for being decent human beings. Just don't get in my way if I need to take matters in my own hands. If I'm seeking an avenue of escape, again get out of my way or provide legitimate assistance.


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## David Weatherly (Feb 10, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> Somehow I dont think that attacking a mob is a great option either. You can start up your car and start rolling slowly. People will move out of the way.
> 
> He wasnt "defending himself against a mob". He was pissed off at one woman. A 250lb wrestler who makes his money being an intimidating bad guy (and making money off of getting people to believe it) vs. a woman who believes the hype? I fall in against the wrestler.


 

There's other factors involved too.  She spit in his face and apparently her boyfriend grabbed him.  These two spent the night at the show berrating wrestlers at ringside and they were clearly convinced that they were watching the real deal and not just entertainment.


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## The Last Legionary (Feb 10, 2009)

"-- According to several sources, Chris Jericho will not be punished by WWE officials over his scuffle with fans this past Saturday. Officials feel he was put in a situation in which he was forced to defend himself, so he's clear of any wrongdoing."

Videos I saw, CJ's in the clear and the redneck fans are to blame. Security too.


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## Guardian (Feb 11, 2009)

JadeDragon3 said:


> Wow. That sounds like something that I would have posted. I see there is someone here with the same views I do. Thats a refreshing change.


 
Not refreshing, quite a few of us think the same thing.  

Wrestling is scripted grant you that, they are good stunt people also, good thing it wasn't the big show, that would have been interesting LOL.


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## MJS (Feb 11, 2009)

LuckyKBoxer said:


> Listen its a dangerous and stupid suggestion. Its Naive, and dependant on others doing the right thing, when they have already started not doing the right thing, BTW a temptation of being in a vehicle, when people are mobbing it is to start it up and run people over, what do you think would have happened then?
> Listen, I do not need to ask someone who has tasted a turd what it tastes like to know I do not want to try it. The same follows here.
> I am perfectly in my rights of free speech, to express myself in the most direct and honest way I know how. I suggest instead of trying to be politically correct you might try the same.


 
To expand on what Kreth has said..I suggest you look at the following, specifically these:

1.1
1.3
*1.3 "Freedom of Speech":*


MartialTalk is dedicated towards allowing as much freedom in our member&#8217;s communications as we can. However, while we believe very much in the idea of freedom of speech & personal expression, you DO NOT have the absolute right to say whatever you want in this community.

Anything that goes against our core beliefs and the purpose for which this community was designed may not be allowed.

Posts and comments that are meant to incite conflicts between members or outside parties are strictly prohibited.

MartialTalk Staff have the absolute right to view, edit, modify, close or delete any content found in this community. This may include amongst other things the Private Message, Email, Blog and Other communications systems on this site in situations where we have concerns about the conduct of one or more of our members.

I trust that this will be a closed matter. As I've said in threads in The Study, which tend to get very heated, due to the nature of the topics...if you can't post without saying anything rude or being disrespectful to someone, then perhaps posting is not for you.

Mike Slosek
MT Asst. Admin.


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## sgtmac_46 (Feb 15, 2009)

It was a tense and idiotic situation.....but I don't think these two clowns should be rewarded by Jericho being charged with assault.  They bought this situation, and he certainly may have had better choices to make, but he didn't create the situation, they did.  The best answer is to ban these two from further promotion events (which i'm sure they already have been) and drop the rest of it.


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## Archangel M (Feb 15, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> It was a tense and idiotic situation.....but I don't think these two clowns should be rewarded by Jericho being charged with assault.  They bought this situation, and he certainly may have had better choices to make, but he didn't create the situation, they did.  The best answer is to ban these two from further promotion events (which i'm sure they already have been) and drop the rest of it.



Thats probably the best solution.


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## Thesemindz (Feb 15, 2009)

Doesn't look to me like anything too heinous happened here. A little pushing and shoving on both sides, nobody seems to badly hurt and everyone goes home.

I'm not going to justify the behavior of the wrestler or the fans. Maybe he should have better security next time. But I will say this. I wouldn't punch someone for spitting on me. That's not self defense, that's saving face. I'd be disgusted with their behavior, I'd certainly think less of them, but I wouldn't resort to overwhelming physical violence as a response.

It's true, spitting on someone is legally assault. So call the cops and file a complaint. You're life isn't in any danger. It isn't the legal ramifications of escalating the situation which concern me. I'm interested in self defense. Punching someone _just_ because they spit on you doesn't make you safer. It makes you less safe. Now, if spitting on me was a precursor to more violence, different story. 

But in this case it was one frustrated fan who couldn't get a picture with her hero. So she acted like an idiot. Judge her, wipe off your face, and move on.


-Rob


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## Archangel M (Feb 15, 2009)

Well I think that "assault" is a bit over reaching (maybe in some states it is). Most jurisdictions I know would call it a harassment or a simple battery. Here it would be a violation level offense, nothing that would justify an assault in reply.


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## LuckyKBoxer (Feb 15, 2009)

Thesemindz said:


> Doesn't look to me like anything too heinous happened here. A little pushing and shoving on both sides, nobody seems to badly hurt and everyone goes home.
> 
> I'm not going to justify the behavior of the wrestler or the fans. Maybe he should have better security next time. But I will say this. I wouldn't punch someone for spitting on me. That's not self defense, that's saving face. I'd be disgusted with their behavior, I'd certainly think less of them, but I wouldn't resort to overwhelming physical violence as a response.
> 
> ...


 
How do you know they are not one of those crazy people who want to hurt others at any cost.. Like an Aids infected bitter person wanting to infect others, by biting the inside of their cheeks and spitting aids infected blood at you? Sure its a big reach, but if you are not considering the worst possible scenario when someone is attacking you, then you leave yourself open to alot of possibilities at the whim of the person attacking you. I consider that a poor choice for self defense.


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## Thesemindz (Feb 15, 2009)

LuckyKBoxer said:


> How do you know they are not one of those crazy people who want to hurt others at any cost.. Like an Aids infected bitter person wanting to infect others, by biting the inside of their cheeks and spitting aids infected blood at you? Sure its a big reach, but if you are not considering the worst possible scenario when someone is attacking you, then you leave yourself open to alot of possibilities at the whim of the person attacking you. I consider that a poor choice for self defense.


 
Your argument is ridiculous.

Please explain to me how punching someone _after they've spit aids infected blood on my face_ is a good self defense decision.

It doesn't prevent the *aids infected blood* from being spit in my face. It doesn't protect me from infection. All it does is increase the possibility that more of their *aids infected blood* will get spilt, raising the chance that I'm infected, not lowering it.

It would be far better for me to exit this situation as quickly as possible so as to avoid being exposed to more *aids infected blood*, rather than sticking around and busting heads.

Punching someone in the face for spitting on me, because maybe they bit the inside of their cheek to spread their *aids infected blood* because they're a bitter person, has nothing to do with self defense. It's a silly argument with no basis in reality. 

I agree, you should assume the worst, and you shouldn't leave yourself at the mercy of your opponent, but your argument doesn't have anything to do with that.

It's pure fantasy, born of an immature mind. It doesn't deal with any real self defense situation. Real self defense is about survival, not imaginary threats. 

I'm no more concerned with the possibility of a "bitter person wanting to infect others, by biting the inside of their cheeks and spitting aids infected blood" at me than I am with defenses against unicorns and hobgoblins. I try to deal with real threats that I may actually face. 

When discussing self defense, you may want to keep that in mind.


-Rob


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## Archangel M (Feb 15, 2009)

Anyway..the blood from punching someone is like..astronomically higher an AIDS risk than what would be found in saliva.


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## Wishbone (Feb 15, 2009)

LuckyKBoxer said:


> Listen its a dangerous and stupid suggestion. Its Naive, and dependant on others doing the right thing, when they have already started not doing the right thing, BTW a temptation of being in a vehicle, when people are mobbing it is to start it up and run people over, what do you think would have happened then?
> Listen, I do not need to ask someone who has tasted a turd what it tastes like to know I do not want to try it. The same follows here.
> I am perfectly in my rights of free speech, to express myself in the most direct and honest way I know how. *I suggest instead of trying to be politically correct you might try the same.*


 
Okay, you're an *******. You're right, that was better than being politically correct.


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## Tames D (Feb 15, 2009)

Everyone take a deep breath...


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## sgtmac_46 (Feb 16, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> Anyway..the blood from punching someone is like..astronomically higher an AIDS risk than what would be found in saliva.


 That's why I always punch them in the gut.


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## sgtmac_46 (Feb 16, 2009)

QUI-GON said:


> Everyone take a deep breath...


 Yeah, no kidding.....I predict some mod involvement if some folks don't turn the vitriol down.


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## LuckyKBoxer (Feb 16, 2009)

Thesemindz said:


> Your argument is ridiculous.
> 
> Please explain to me how punching someone _after they've spit aids infected blood on my face_ is a good self defense decision.
> 
> ...


 
Lets get something straight right now, before we go further.. I do not disagree that the best case scenario would be to have avoided the situation all together, like having the car in an secured area free from fans, or the "Mob" I also agree that if he would have been able to get away that would have been fine, however I view his situation as unable to retreat. He was surrounded, and it was escalating. If you disagree with me there, then our disagreement is at an end there, and we will have to just disagree on that, because everything else I have stated and state now is dependant on the fact that he was unable to leave, and unable to avoid the escalation. Which is what I saw in the video...That said..
I have to say "Wow"  Are you saying that anytime a self defense situation comes up it involves blood for you? 
If it does you don't control the blood flow? That is a pretty poor way to defend yourself if so.
I have never anywhere said to bleed anyone, draw blood, or any such thing. Thats a big leap you make in your assumptions, and if a person has to hit someone in the face as theri sole means to defend themselves, then they probably have a pretty poor idea of what self defense is. I get control of a situation when I am involved, I control blood flow in an opponent if there is any, and avoid blood flow at all costs. There is no immature mind here, if anything you are taking a naive approach to your thought process. Your arguments thus far seem to think the bigger guy has all the advantages, and a smaller opponent has nothing dangerous to offer. I would be willing to bet you have ZERO experience with any situation like this. I would also be willing to bet you are basing all your comments off of your own imagination, and possibly other peoples second hand accounts. I look at what you write in your post and have to chuckle and think to myself here is a really intelligent guy who just does not get the reality of the situation. Do you want to talk about fantasy? I would say fantasy is making a comment about a situation you have never been involved with and thinking it is correct. Before you ask, yes i have been involved in many situations similar to this. I have seen what happens first hand when a person goes into a vehicle for cover when a "mob" of people are harassing them. 
I have to say all the people raising a stink about my previous comments really don't phase me in any way. I already made a statement in regards to a poor choice on my part in terms used and will leave it at that, and I am not here to make friends. I know quite a bit about violence. I know quite a bit about strategy, and martial arts. I will make a comment about things that seem ridiculous to me, and I will state why. I will invite any comments against my own thoughts and theories and opinions, and I always keep an open mind when it comes to better ideas. 
I simply have a certain way of looking at things. I expect the worst from people when it comes to a self defense situation. I have a wife and kids, and responsiblities to come home to. I leave no room for error. I assume the worst of everyone, and that way any surprises will come out in a favorable way for me. If a person chooses to live in an environment that gives them no contact to the worst people have to offer, then they will never understand what I talk about. I have seen violence on many levels, I have seen people die violently. I do not care if you dislike me due to my opinions, they work, they will keep you alive, and they are not based on fiction.


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## LuckyKBoxer (Feb 16, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> Anyway..the blood from punching someone is like..astronomically higher an AIDS risk than what would be found in saliva.


 
I agree, I however did not say saliva. But yes you are correct, I would be an idiot to argue that point.


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## Thesemindz (Feb 16, 2009)

LuckyKBoxer said:


> Lets get something straight right now, before we go further.. I do not disagree that the best case scenario would be to have avoided the situation all together, like having the car in an secured area free from fans, or the "Mob" I also agree that if he would have been able to get away that would have been fine, however I view his situation as unable to retreat. He was surrounded, and it was escalating. If you disagree with me there, then our disagreement is at an end there, and we will have to just disagree on that, because everything else I have stated and state now is dependant on the fact that he was unable to leave, and unable to avoid the escalation. Which is what I saw in the video...That said..
> I have to say "Wow" Are you saying that anytime a self defense situation comes up it involves blood for you?
> If it does you don't control the blood flow? That is a pretty poor way to defend yourself if so.
> I have never anywhere said to bleed anyone, draw blood, or any such thing. Thats a big leap you make in your assumptions, and if a person has to hit someone in the face as theri sole means to defend themselves, then they probably have a pretty poor idea of what self defense is. I get control of a situation when I am involved, I control blood flow in an opponent if there is any, and avoid blood flow at all costs. There is no immature mind here, if anything you are taking a naive approach to your thought process. Your arguments thus far seem to think the bigger guy has all the advantages, and a smaller opponent has nothing dangerous to offer. I would be willing to bet you have ZERO experience with any situation like this. I would also be willing to bet you are basing all your comments off of your own imagination, and possibly other peoples second hand accounts. I look at what you write in your post and have to chuckle and think to myself here is a really intelligent guy who just does not get the reality of the situation. Do you want to talk about fantasy? I would say fantasy is making a comment about a situation you have never been involved with and thinking it is correct. Before you ask, yes i have been involved in many situations similar to this. I have seen what happens first hand when a person goes into a vehicle for cover when a "mob" of people are harassing them.
> ...


 

Ok. I see you have all the answers. Clearly discussing this with such a learned and experienced person as yourself is not the most appropriate use of my time. I'm glad you "leave no room for error." I hope someday my skill level will approach such perfection. I guess you've really shown me how hitting someone who spits *aids infected blood* on you will "keep me alive." Perhaps someday I can learn how to make sure that "any suprises will come out in a favorable way for me" when in a self defense situation.

I guess you're right about one other thing too.

I will "never understand what you're talking about."


-Rob


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## LuckyKBoxer (Feb 16, 2009)

LOL..
or you could that route... no skin off my back. Good luck to you.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Feb 16, 2009)

> I am not here to make friends.


 
Then why are you here then if not to make friends or engage in a friendly conversation?


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## LuckyKBoxer (Feb 16, 2009)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> Then why are you here then if not to make friends or engage in a friendly conversation?


 
I actually went to kenpotalk forum for kenpo information, thoughts, ideas, etc. I happened on this site through there and browse it every once in a while. I find it interesting. However I have never had the intent of visiting any forums to make friends... I have met a few people through some of the forums, but it was not my intent. I visit forums first and foremost to get information I am lacking in, or finding something I am interested in that I never knew about. I post on subjects that I feel I have either a vested interest in, a substantial amount of experience and or knowlege about, or am just compelled to comment on because its either funny, outrageous, ridiculous, or something similar. I enjoy friendly conversation, but life would be so boring if everyone agreed with me on everything. I never mind a difference of opinion as long as its based on facts. I find it annoying when someone disagrees based on some warped version of reality and refuse to see something for what it really is, and just disagree on principles. Anyways that said, my goal is not to come in and start a fight. I also however have no interest in sugarcoating anything to make sure that noone gets "upset" at my comments. People can make whatever assumptions they want out of my comments, I only try to make direct and to the point comments that have no hidden agenda, and no secret meaning in them.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Feb 16, 2009)

Thanks for explaining it helps see where you are coming from even if it is a more disgruntle approach.

Everyone has an opinion and it is shaped by our experiences (or lack of)and the knowledge of information processed by our minds in what we would do in a situation.
Anyway these forums at times can be difficult to express thoughts and reading words can sometimes be hard to decipher. Anyway cheers,
:cheers:


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## JadeDragon3 (Feb 16, 2009)

Look, the security at these events is *NOT* WWE employees.  They are hired by the arena.  Some of my friends worked some of the shows at Rupp Arena in Lexington, Kentucky when the WWE came to my town.  Obviously the security at this event was not doing thier job in keeping the crowd away.  Chris Jericho did what he thought was appropriate at the time.  Maybe he regrets it now, maybe he doesn't.  I probably would have been even more outraged than him.  I don't blame the man for hitting the person.  Someone spits in my face thier going to get an *** whooping.  Or at least I'll try to give them one.  Chris probably had no idea what the others intentions were and wanted to make a statement by hitting the one as if to say this is what is going to happen to you if you do something like that or assualt me.


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## MJS (Feb 16, 2009)

*Admin Note*

****ATTENTION ALL USERS****

*Apparently my note was missed on the other page, so I'm taking this time to post one final warning.  Keep the thread polite and respectful.  If you can't post without calling someone rude names, then don't post.  I suggest everyone take the time to read up on the forum rules.*

*Any further disregard for the forum rules will result in the thread closed and possible suspension of accounts.*

*Mike Slosek*
*MT Asst. Admin*


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## Wishbone (Feb 16, 2009)

LuckyKBoxer said:


> Lets get something straight right now, before we go further.. I do not disagree that the best case scenario would be to have avoided the situation all together, like having the car in an secured area free from fans, or the "Mob" I also agree that if he would have been able to get away that would have been fine, however I view his situation as unable to retreat. He was surrounded, and it was escalating. If you disagree with me there, then our disagreement is at an end there, and we will have to just disagree on that, because everything else I have stated and state now is dependant on the fact that he was unable to leave, and unable to avoid the escalation. Which is what I saw in the video...That said..



I think it's best to take this entire post in sections.  I have no problem with this statement.  Even if people disagree about the level of danger in this situation, we can all pretend there was no option to leave for analysis.



LuckyKBoxer said:


> I have to say "Wow"  Are you saying that anytime a self defense situation comes up it involves blood for you?
> If it does you don't control the blood flow? That is a pretty poor way to defend yourself if so.



In return, I must say "wow" are you actually claiming that in any self-defense situation YOU dictate everything to the point you control 'blood flow'?  That statement shows ignorance on your part of true, violent self-defense situations.  You don't get to decide the manner in which you defend yourself.  Sometimes, situations don't dictate an extreme violent response to where you can grapple with the person or use strikes to parts of the body that will not draw blood.  Other times, you are going to get bloody with your own blood and the blood of your attacker.  What decides that is how committed your attacker is in inflicting violence, or death, on you.  I'm still not even sure exactly what you mean by controlling the blood flow.  Either you mean as the defender you don't use strikes that draw blood, or you mean you have some mystical power that lets you redirect blood spatter through the air around your body.  Although I want to give you the benefit of the doubt and presume you meant my first guess, the arrogance of your post makes me think you might be deluded into thinking you have this ability.



LuckyKBoxer said:


> I have never anywhere said to bleed anyone, draw blood, or any such thing. Thats a big leap you make in your assumptions, and if a person has to hit someone in the face as theri sole means to defend themselves, then they probably have a pretty poor idea of what self defense is. I get control of a situation when I am involved, I control blood flow in an opponent if there is any, and avoid blood flow at all costs.



No, you didn't say that, but you did say this:



LuckyKBoxer said:


> How do you know they are not one of those crazy people who want to hurt others at any cost.. Like an Aids infected bitter person wanting to infect others, by biting the inside of their cheeks and spitting aids infected blood at you? Sure its a big reach, but if you are not considering the worst possible scenario when someone is attacking you, then you leave yourself open to alot of possibilities at the whim of the person attacking you. I consider that a poor choice for self defense.



You are the one who brought this AIDS spit business into this thread.  What you failed to understand about Thesemindz post was that after you have already been spit on, under _your_ example of someone having AIDS, that the best defense would be to leave.  He made the example of punching to show that it would be worst to engage this person in combat.  Walking away is the best defense at that point.  You haven't given any of us a specific example of what would be better than that.  You think you are controlling 'blood flow' by somehow physically engaging this person but not striking them somewhere they would bleed?  Well what happens when you try to manhandle them and they start biting you?  You are the one who said to consider the worst possible scenario, but I have a feeling your consideration of that only extends as far as it supports your ideals, and not reality.  You also said this earlier:



LuckyKBoxer said:


> I would not have faulted him for defending himself by grabbing a tire iron and start waylaying the crowd.



Apparently instead of punching someone in the face we are to use the self-defense technique of tire iron to the crowd.  Yes grasshopper, that is truly the way to control the 'blood flow'. 



LuckyKBoxer said:


> There is no immature mind here



Please review the following statements from this thread:



LuckyKBoxer said:


> You people advocating that he should have gotten into the car and waited it out are morons.
> 
> I would not have faulted him for defending himself by grabbing a tire iron and start waylaying the crowd.
> 
> ...



If you're wondering why I included the 195 at best comment it's because you clearly made that up just to support your position.  I am 5'8" and have weighed 190 before and I wasn't even close to being as big as Chris Jericho.  There is no reason to believe that several different webpages based on a google search would list his weight anywhere from 225 to 231 instead of 195 because they don't want people to think he weighs more.  He's not a woman, he's a pro wrestler, him weighing more is an asset.  Only someone immature would just pull those kinds of comments out of their rear to support their point.



LuckyKBoxer said:


> if anything you are taking a naive approach to your thought process. Your arguments thus far seem to think the bigger guy has all the advantages, and a smaller opponent has nothing dangerous to offer.



Nothing Thesemindz has said reflects this attitude.  You are trying to put words in his mouth so you can look good by countering a point that was not his in the first place.  Nice try.




LuckyKBoxer said:


> would be willing to bet you have ZERO experience with any situation like this.



Please add this to the immature comments section above.



LuckyKBoxer said:


> I would also be willing to bet you are basing all your comments off of your own imagination, and possibly other peoples second hand accounts.



Much like you have with all of your posts in this thread?



LuckyKBoxer said:


> I look at what you write in your post and have to chuckle and think to myself here is a really intelligent guy who just does not get the reality of the situation.



No sir, you do not get the reality of the situation.  Of course, first we must define the situation.  Is this the situation that actually occurred per the video, or would this be the situation from your imagination where AIDS infected blood is spit on the defender?  If it is the former, things could have ended by Chris Jericho not being whiny and taking the picture in the first place, such is the pain of being famous, but that's the life he chose.  If it is the latter, I defy you to offer a more rational approach than wiping the AIDS infected spit off your face and leaving.  If it's just spit you will not get AIDS.  If there is blood in it and the spit it an open wound, I suppose an addition to this rational approach would be a trip to the doctor.



LuckyKBoxer said:


> Do you want to talk about fantasy? I would say fantasy is making a comment about a situation you have never been involved with and thinking it is correct.



So pretty much every post you've made starting with the tire iron?




LuckyKBoxer said:


> Before you ask, yes i have been involved in many situations similar to this.



No one was going to.  Watching the movie Hannibal and playing too many video games does not count as being involved in many situations similar to this.



LuckyKBoxer said:


> I have seen what happens first hand when a person goes into a vehicle for cover when a "mob" of people are harassing them.



I'm glad you have access to youtube too.



LuckyKBoxer said:


> I have to say all the people raising a stink about my previous comments really don't phase me in any way. I already made a statement in regards to a poor choice on my part in terms used and will leave it at that, and *I am not here to make friends*.



That's apparent.



LuckyKBoxer said:


> I know quite a bit about violence. I know quite a bit about strategy, and martial arts.



You may know quite a bit about violence.  But that statement is vague.  It doesn't let any of us know how that makes you more qualified to present us your fantasy of AIDS infected blood being spat on people.  I guess if swinging a tire-iron into a mob counts as strategy, yes.  And even I would agree in certain cases that would be a good defense.



LuckyKBoxer said:


> I will make a comment about things that seem ridiculous to me, and I will state why.



Yes, we can see that.  However, I find it laughable that you don't find your tire-iron comment or AIDS infected blood comments ridiculous in terms of this thread.



LuckyKBoxer said:


> I will invite any comments against my own thoughts and theories and opinions, and I always keep an open mind when it comes to better ideas.



From your responses to this thread it's apparent that you don't keep an open mind to better ideas.  You insult people and are dramatic in trying to prove your points.



LuckyKBoxer said:


> I simply have a certain way of looking at things.



No disagreement here.



LuckyKBoxer said:


> I expect the worst from people when it comes to a self defense situation.



As you should. 



LuckyKBoxer said:


> I have a wife and kids, and responsiblities to come home to. I leave no room for error. I assume the worst of everyone, and that way any surprises will come out in a favorable way for me.



That's an arrogant attitude.  Just because you presume the worst of everyone does not mean you won't be taken by surprise and that _any_ surprise will come out in a favorable way for you.  Further, if you have presumed the worst then an attack wouldn't be a surprise to you anyway, it would be expected.  The surprise happens when you're going number 2, you hear your wife scream and then silenced by gunshots and while excrement is still leaving your body you stand up trying to pull your pants on when the gunman bursts down the door and shoots you.  That's being surprised.  Looking at everyone at McDonald's and thinking how you'd incapacitate them doesn't mean every surprise is going to come out in a favorable way for you.



LuckyKBoxer said:


> If a person chooses to live in an environment that gives them no contact to the worst people have to offer, then they will never understand what I talk about



It's time for you to stop alluding to how much real-life hands on experience you have and back it up with facts.  What are you?  A prison guard?  Where does all this first hand knowledge come from? Most people who have these experiences that you claim to do not go on an internet forum bragging about them to prove their points.



LuckyKBoxer said:


> I have seen violence on many levels, I have seen people die violently. I do not care if you dislike me due to my opinions, they work, they will keep you alive, and they are not based on fiction.



Yes, yes, you've alluded to that before, see my response above.


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## Thesemindz (Feb 22, 2009)

Huh. I guess you kinda killed the discussion Wishbone. Nice work. I guess no one wants to discuss with someone so long winded.

I liked the part about the excrement though.


-Rob


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## LuckyKBoxer (Feb 23, 2009)

Wishbone said:


> I think it's best to take this entire post in sections. I have no problem with this statement. Even if people disagree about the level of danger in this situation, we can all pretend there was no option to leave for analysis.


 
Not sure how I missed your long winded post.. Thanks for bringing it back up I guess thesemindz. I thank you simply because I missed his response, your sarcasm is not overlooked, and is however slightly humorous.
the first thing I will say is that if you want any more personal information from me other then what I have posted in my profile, then you need to put what you ask out there and tell us who you are Mr. Anon... Lame.

Secondly, There are so many assumptions on your part in this post its ridiculous to try to answer all of them one at a time.

Lets try to shorten this so and make it simple so you can understand, since obviously you have little chance to figure it out on your own.

The situation was dangerous, he let his guard down more then enough by letting an individual get close enough to spit in his face. That is just a dumb thing to do, of course being in Canada after degrading the entire canadian population and walking to your car in the middle of a mob of Canadians is probably not smart to begin with. I am a big guy, with alot of experience with fighting, people do not worry me, but stuff like viruses, needles, blades, that worries me. So when I have a potential situation, or a situation occuring I make sure to attack in a way that will end the situation to my desired outcome with the least possible exposure to anything I listed above. If I am going to strike the face, or if there is a weapon involved that could severely cut my opponent I will make sure that the damage is not done to an area that will spray blood in my face. Thats what controlling the blood flow means. Obviously you will have risks any time you cut an opponent, but understanding how blood flows and avoiding the possibility, or positioning yourself in an advantageous position before doing it is not only possible, but smart defense. You do not smash a persons mouth and allow them to spit in your face, thats just careless and unnecessary. There are so many strikes that are just as good if not better then a strike to the face, so why risk that unless you have no other options? My comments about a tire iron were extreme obviously, and if I was in the situation and felt I had to use one to prevent harm to myself, I would be aiming at elbows, knees, spines, back of neck, etc. not the face.
Obviously thinking of worst case scenarios, there are many horror stories that can happen to take a person by surprise. I eliminate as many possibilities as possible, and I do not let people get close to me if possible. I do not like crowds, and I am very wary of how people move and position themselves. I consider everyone around me a possible threat, not necessarily threatening. Unfortunately my past made me think this way, I have several knife wounds from my past. I have survived drive by shootings, and I have been on both sides of the Mob deal, multiple times. Thats about as much of the story as anyone needs to hear. How about you? Or are you just the anon sheriff of the internet that thinks he has all the answers? Usually I would just dismiss an anon poster, but ehh I guess I am embarassed I missed this ridiculous response.
Regardless I don't think this thread has anything to offer anyways with or without my posts. It was a stupid situation that should have been easily avoided. Obviously we come at it from completely different backgrounds and experiences. I just find it funny how people with no experience with a certain situation give advice on it with authority, and when asked about their experience the response is almost as if it does not matter to begin with. I guess if we were living in a theoretical world that would make sense.
/shrug


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## Thesemindz (Feb 23, 2009)

LuckyKBoxer said:


> Thanks for bringing it back up I guess thesemindz.


 
You're welcome.



> your sarcasm is not overlooked, and is however slightly humorous.


 
I'm glad you enjoy my sense of humor.


-Rob


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## Wishbone (Feb 23, 2009)

LuckyKBoxer said:


> Not sure how I missed your long winded post.. Thanks for bringing it back up I guess thesemindz. I thank you simply because I missed his response, your sarcasm is not overlooked, and is however slightly humorous.
> the first thing I will say is that if you want any more personal information from me other then what I have posted in my profile, then you need to put what you ask out there and tell us who you are Mr. Anon... Lame.



I don't want your personal information.  I don't care who you are and figured even if you were to truly say so, which you didn't, you would be lying.  The reason I called you out is because you claimed that your experiences in life gave you more authority than the rest of the posters in this thread.  You put it out there, no one initially asked.  You even went as far to say that your opinions will keep us alive.  However, the information you give is vague, I know several thugs without training who have had the equivalent of what you have said so far.  It doesn't help to prove your point when you make claims of that kind.  Anyone who reads this thread can judge my points by the merits of my posts.  I don't need to claim any sort of greatness to convey what I'm thinking.  I'm not going to tell you anything about myself because either you would sneer at it, or you would say I was lying.  You, along with the others here, can read what I have to write and take it as it is.  I do not claim any knowledge or experience, nor do I need to, in making my points.



LuckyKBoxer said:


> Secondly, There are so many assumptions on your part in this post its ridiculous to try to answer all of them one at a time.



Translation:  I'm too lazy to try and make a coherent response and I'm hoping you will overlook all the points I don't address.



LuckyKBoxer said:


> Lets try to shorten this so and make it simple so you can understand, since obviously you have little chance to figure it out on your own.



I imagine a good start would be to proofread your posts before clicking submit.  Also, insults are the last refuge of a man who can't defend his position.  



LuckyKBoxer said:


> The situation was dangerous, he let his guard down more then enough by letting an individual get close enough to spit in his face. That is just a dumb thing to do, of course being in Canada after degrading the entire canadian population and walking to your car in the middle of a mob of Canadians is probably not smart to begin with. I am a big guy, with alot of experience with fighting, people do not worry me, but stuff like viruses, needles, blades, that worries me. So when I have a potential situation, or a situation occuring I make sure to attack in a way that will end the situation to my desired outcome with the least possible exposure to anything I listed above. If I am going to strike the face, or if there is a weapon involved that could severely cut my opponent I will make sure that the damage is not done to an area that will spray blood in my face. Thats what controlling the blood flow means. Obviously you will have risks any time you cut an opponent, but understanding how blood flows and avoiding the possibility, or positioning yourself in an advantageous position before doing it is not only possible, but smart defense.



So you still believe you have this blood flow control.  Does your training include hitting people with the intent to cut, with knives and fists, so you can see how the blood actually sprays depending on each area hit or cut?  I'm guessing not, because that kind of training would be ridiculous.  I agree you can target areas less likely to bleed.  But making claims about using an edged weapon and controlling the blood flow are delusional.  I will no longer try and convince you of this, it's your delusion, and you're welcome to it.



LuckyKBoxer said:


> You do not smash a persons mouth and allow them to spit in your face, thats just careless and unnecessary.



You have a lot of people try to spit in your face _after _you smash their mouth?  Interesting.




LuckyKBoxer said:


> There are so many strikes that are just as good if not better then a strike to the face, so why risk that unless you have no other options?



I'm not sure what your point is with that statement.  I haven't made a comment that implied otherwise.  



LuckyKBoxer said:


> My comments about a tire iron were extreme obviously, and if I was in the situation and felt I had to use one to prevent harm to myself, I would be aiming at elbows, knees, spines, back of neck, etc. not the face.



Okay.



LuckyKBoxer said:


> Obviously thinking of worst case scenarios, there are many horror stories that can happen to take a person by surprise.



Yes there are, I mentioned one in an earlier post. 



LuckyKBoxer said:


> I eliminate as many possibilities as possible,  and I do not let people get close to me if possible.



Well said.



LuckyKBoxer said:


> I do not like crowds, and I am very wary of how people move and position themselves. I consider everyone around me a possible threat, not necessarily threatening.



This is fluff unnecessary to making your point, or it is used to distract from the lack of point.



LuckyKBoxer said:


> Unfortunately my past made me think this way, I have several knife wounds from my past. I have survived drive by shootings, and I have been on both sides of the Mob deal, multiple times. Thats about as much of the story as anyone needs to hear.



Translation:  I've been called out about trying to use my "experience" to support an insupportable position and I can't deliver.



LuckyKBoxer said:


> How about you? Or are you just the anon sheriff of the internet that thinks he has all the answers? Usually I would just dismiss an anon poster, but ehh I guess I am embarassed I missed this ridiculous response.



If my response seems ridiculous take a second to really go back and read your posts.  My posts are in response to the drivel you've spewed into this thread.  I've never claimed to have all the answers.  In fact, the only thing I've done is question your positions.  I haven't tried to claim any superior knowledge in doing this.  I don't need to.  If you feel that I'm the Sheriff of the Internet just because I question you and don't bow down to your claimed expertise and arrogant posts, it's probably because you can't defend your positions in any logical manner.  You have to resort to distracting the issue by trying to call me out.  You can't defend your positions but expect all of us 'morons' to listen to your opinion.  Maybe this isn't the place for you.  




LuckyKBoxer said:


> Regardless I don't think this thread has anything to offer anyways with or without my posts.



Then why did you post in the first place?



LuckyKBoxer said:


> It was a stupid situation that should have been easily avoided.



You mean like when I suggested he just pose for the picture in the first place?  Or walk away after being spat on?



LuckyKBoxer said:


> Obviously we come at it from completely different backgrounds and experiences.



You don't have to tell me twice.



LuckyKBoxer said:


> I just find it funny how people with no experience with a certain situation give advice on it with authority, and when asked about their experience the response is almost as if it does not matter to begin with. I guess if we were living in a theoretical world that would make sense.
> /shrug



That old tired line again.  You probably don't know about most of the people here to say with authority that they have no experience.  What's sad is that you don't seem to realize that you are essentially describing yourself in that paragraph.

In closing, I would like to mention all of the things I mentioned that you failed to address:

You failed to suggest a better defense after being spit on than walking away.  

You failed to defend your comment about Chris Jericho's weight.  That or your failure to mention it is an admission of how you were lying to try and make your point.

You have continuously failed to adequately back up your life experiences even though you continually flaunt them as if they give only you expertise that no one else here has.  But don't bother.  No matter what experience you can claim, it will not make your blood flow comments and everything else you have written any more intelligible than it currently is.  Which is to say not much.

There are other things in my previous post that you also chose to not mention because I can only presume that you don't want to say I was right.  Like the straw man fallacy you tried to use against Thesemindz.


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## Kreth (Feb 23, 2009)

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Jeff Velten/Kreth
-MT Super Moderator-*


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## Brian King (Feb 24, 2009)

opcorn:

Like a car wreck

Brian King


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