# The 47 Ronin..truth vs legend.



## Tgace (Dec 15, 2013)

I recently wrote a post about the 47 Ronin:

http://tgace.com/2013/12/15/47-ronin/

In a nutshell. Some scholars believe tuch of the "Legend" as we know it now is based on Meiji Era propaganda vs "the truth". While I don't know if anyone has all of the facts behind the "Ako Incident". I find some of the discussion and criticism attributed to the Samurai of the day kind of interesting. 

While many people think that this was a classic example of &#8220;Bushido&#8221;, the Samurai of the day and even modern scholars of Japanese history are not so sure. One scholar succinctly puts the historic quandary like this:
The even greater ambiguity lies in the motivation and action of the ronin. They justified the attack as a vendetta (katakiuchi) on behalf of their lord, but in no way did the case fit either the legal or the customary definition of katakiuchi. Kira, after all, was not their master&#8217;s murderer: on the contrary, Asano had tried to murder Kira. Nor was there any justification for avenging the death of one&#8217;s lord, only that of a family member: the ronin even had to call on a Confucian scholar to come up with a textual basis for their action. Legalities aside, what was the underlying spirit of their act? Was it indeed personal loyalty to their lord, as the mainstream of the Chûshingura tradition would have it? Or was it a protest against the bakufu&#8217;s lenient treatment of Kira for his involvement in the incident? Or was it a simple matter of personal honor to carry out their master&#8217;s unfinished task? Or, as one school of interpretation would have it, were they impoverished samurai desperate for a new job and trying to prove their credentials?​​


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## Hyoho (Dec 15, 2013)

The sad part is the two lords originally had been friends and did tea ceremony together. This is how they knew Kira would be at home at a Sohen Ryu ceremony.


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## Tgace (Dec 16, 2013)

Hyoho said:


> The sad part is the two lords originally had been friends and did tea ceremony together. This is how they knew Kira would be at home at a Sohen Ryu ceremony.



I never heard that before....what source are you basing that on?


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## Carol (Dec 17, 2013)

I'm not really sure how that would fit in. I thought a central point to the events were that the ronin went forward as ordinary people for the following 2 years or so, they gained information by working as ordinary townspeople as Kira slowly put his guard down. Unless I'm misunderstanding?


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## ballen0351 (Dec 18, 2013)

I wish the new movie coming out was closer to reality then what it is.  Monsters and white surfer dudes just killed a good story


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 18, 2013)

Although it is _probably_ safe to say there were no monsters or surfer dudes, *The Truth* is a pretty murky subject anyway. Nobody really knows for sure what the reality was.


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## ballen0351 (Dec 18, 2013)

Dirty Dog said:


> Although it is _probably_ safe to say there were no monsters or surfer dudes, *The Truth* is a pretty murky subject anyway. Nobody really knows for sure what the reality was.



I ment closer to reality then bill or ted and monsters running around.


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## Tgace (Dec 18, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> I wish the new movie coming out was closer to reality then what it is.  Monsters and white surfer dudes just killed a good story



Agreed. This movie is a disgraceful twisting of the story...no matter what the truth may have been.

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## Hyoho (Dec 23, 2013)

ThTE=Tgace;1615133]I never heard that before....what source are you basing that on?[/QUOTE]

Sorry to respond so late. Fact. I used to do embu (sword demonstrations) for the Ryu every year. The purpose was to lament what happened and try to show that being friends in tea is the better option.

Two trains of thought in drawing the sword from seiza is it educates one to use the hips to cut. The second is that even sitting drinking tea one is still able to attack.


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## Tgace (Dec 23, 2013)

Hyoho said:


> ThTE=Tgace;1615133]I never heard that before....what source are you basing that on?



Sorry to respond so late. Fact. I used to do embu (sword demonstrations) for the Ryu every year. The purpose was to lament what happened and try to show that being friends in tea is the better option.

Two trains of thought in drawing the sword from seiza is it educates one to use the hips to cut. The second is that even sitting drinking tea one is still able to attack.[/QUOTE]

Ummm....ok.

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## Chris Parker (Dec 24, 2013)

Hyoho said:


> Tgace said:
> 
> 
> > I never heard that before....what source are you basing that on?
> ...



Interesting! I wasn't aware that the Kage Ryu had such a direct connection to the story of Chushingura.

On your comment, it would be remiss to not also mention systems such as Araki Ryu (and a number of others I know of that have similar waza) who teach a method of serving tea, with rather a dramatic, uh, flavour to it!






Tgace, what Hyoho is saying is that his information comes directly from a ryu (system) that is intimately involved in the story, and indeed has a number of aspects which relate specifically to it.


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## Steve (Dec 25, 2013)

I've seen like three movie versions, and read the wiki page... Soo...  I'm like an expert.


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## Chris Parker (Dec 25, 2013)

Are you trying to say something, Steve?


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## Steve (Dec 25, 2013)

Chris Parker said:


> Are you trying to say something, Steve?



Just trying to keep it light, Chris.  My impression is that this story is very simmilar to some of Americas stories about the revolution.  The crossing of the Delaware, or the midnight ride of Paul revere.   Or King Arthur or Robin Hood.   While the kernel of truth is there, based on some actual event, the "truth" of the story is pretty much lost.

Like other stories of its kind, this is a story that embodies many of the virtues that the Japanese value.  And the historical truth of it is secondary.

My favorite version so far is the 1962 movie.

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## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 25, 2013)

I think if you just go to enjoy and watch this movie for fun that it could be good!


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## Steve (Dec 25, 2013)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I think if you just go to enjoy and watch this movie for fun that it could be good!


I'm going to see it in the theater.  For sure.  Even if I have to go alone.


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## Spinedoc (Dec 27, 2013)

Saw it yesterday. It was a good film. Won't post spoilers, but it was worth the ticket price.


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## Mauthos (Jan 2, 2014)

I have also seen this now with a good friend and we both agreed that it was a good film and quite a fitting tribute with a great deal of respect paid toward the true story that inspired the film.


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## Chris Parker (Jan 2, 2014)

Hmm... not sure about how much respect was paid from the reports I've come across....

http://hnn.us/article/154304


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## Mauthos (Jan 2, 2014)

Chris Parker said:


> Hmm... not sure about how much respect was paid from the reports I've come across....
> 
> http://hnn.us/article/154304



That is an interesting article and has made me look at the film in a different light.  However, I didn't think it was boring or derivitive, like 300, it was fun to watch and I still enjoyed it.


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## Chris Parker (Jan 3, 2014)

Heh... 300 had me screaming obscenities at the screen..... damn disclaimer.... found that borderline offensive.... ha!


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## Kframe (Jan 4, 2014)

Id be fascinated to know the real history of 300. From what I understand, Sparta didn't really do well after that and started a path of decline. I remember a history channel story about a battle on a island. The Spartans actually surrendered and didn't fight to the death. When they were returned to Sparta, they were not ridiculed and rejected for being "tremblers" as they would have been historically.   I wonder why Sparta was never able to recover from its decline?


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## Steve (Jan 4, 2014)

Aren't both of these movies based on graphic novels?  What were you expecting.  

300 was exactly what I expected, although I missed a plot more than I thought I would.  It was a 90 minute long video game cutscene.


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## billc (Feb 20, 2014)

> Id be fascinated to know the real history of 300.



Victor Davis Hanson has a book on that war...


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