# Kosho Ryu?



## LegLockGuy

I was wondering a couple things about Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo. I heard there aren't any techniques. What does that mean? Does it cover all the ranges? (striking, grappling, clinching) What's the striking like? And how does sparring go in a Kosho Ryu school? (I know it depends, but usually whats the standard)


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## BlackCatBonz

use the search function and see what you come up with.


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## bushidomartialarts

Kosho Ryu as I am studying it is a branch of Kenpo that split off _before _the techniques as we know them were invented and systematized.

It covers all ranges, and has (in my opinion) better weapons training that Tracy or Parker.  Suffers from the same 'ground blindness' as the rest of Kenpo.

I've never actually seen sparring in the KR school I visit, though my teacher spars quite well with me one on one.

Not a bad system.  Not bad at all.  If you can imagine Kenpo and Aikido hooking up in a bar after a concert...the illegitimate love child would be Kosho.


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## kosho

Here is some info: maybe you have seen this or what not.  But to truly see kosho you need to go to a seminar with Bruce Juchnik Hanshi, or Pat Kelly Sensei... or Larry Krastburger sensei ( spelling?)
There is ground work in Kosho Pat kelly Sensei showed some of this at a seminar he did at My Dojo a few months ago. hope this helped...
Kosho








​The Sho Chiku Bai Mon (Pine, Bamboo, Plum Crest) is the basic foundation of study for all Kosho Ryu practitioners, and for that matter, all traditional martial artists. The study of the mon is known as _Mon Gaku_. The Sho Chiku Bai crest of Kosho Ryu has elements that are over 750 years old. Crests that are developed in modern times do not have the roots and historical significance represented in the Sho Chiku Bai. 
There are three ways of looking at the crest and its meaning. Interpretation is taught in order of importance as follows. 
The spiritual and philosophical study is most important. This study has a tendancy to keep the practitioner in line with his environment and himself in relation to any potential conflict. We must understand that we are responsible for everything we do as human beings. 
The second representation is that of the physical study. This study deals with avoidance of direct physical conflict with any individual. We can manipulate either body movement or body position so that we may escape harm. This is the highest level of study in Kosho relating to the physical arts: to do no harm. 
The third representation is the study of destructive arts. These arts are utilized only when there is no alternative. The study of this particular aspect of Kosho Ryu is the most important, and yet the least important. 
Kosho Ryu is a philosophical art. We must understand that it stems from the study of Zen. Zen Buddhism is the study of who we are in relation to nature, ourselves, those around us, and our environment. The philosophy of Zen is awareness of everything around us and ourselves. Thus, the importance of the study of the Sho Chiku Bai.​
*[SIZE=+2]The Hand Postures[/SIZE]*




[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Kigan: Praying Hands Position*[/FONT]​*First Representation*: The right hand (representing the physical) and the left hand (representing the spiritual) are placed together for peace and avoidance of conflict. 
*Second Representation*: Escaping Arts 
*Third Representation*: Skeletal Strikes ​



[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Kaishu: Open Hand Position *[/FONT]​*First Representation*: The right hand and left hand are placed together in the shape of a mountain. Look for the good in man as you would see a mountain from a distance, without nitpicking flaws and imperfections. 
*Second Representation*: Folding Arts 
*Third Representation*: Internal Strikes ​



[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Hoken: Covered Fist Position*[/FONT]​*First Representation*: The right hand (representing physical skills) is covered by the left hand (representing spiritual skills). One should temper his actions with morality, avoid conflict, and hide his weapons. 
*Second Representation*: Muscular Strikes 
*Third Representation*: Total Domination​*[SIZE=+2]Pine, Bamboo, and Plum[/SIZE]*​​



[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Sho (Matsuda): Pine *[/FONT]​Evergreens live long, young, and healthy lives. The pine symbolizes faithful friendship which resists all trials. The pine represents the religion of Taoism. The Japanese people use pine needles for ornaments on Christmas and New Year. ​



[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Chiku (Take): Bamboo *[/FONT]​Bamboo represents Honesty. When you cut into bamboo, you find emptiness inside. Nothing evil is hidden within. Also, Kosho Ryu practitioners remain ever empty, and open to additional knowledge, never becoming full of themselves and their accomplishments. The bamboo is the symbol of the application of discipline and the man who remains loyal in all events. Bamboo represents the Japanese religion of Buddhism. ​



[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Bai (Baika): Plum Flower*[/FONT]​The Japanese plum flower stands for beauty, nobility, and courage. This is because the plum flower puts forth blossoms while the snow is still on the ground. The plum tree flowers before all the others. The Japanese people love the plum fruit. They especially eat plums when they are sick. Plum represents the Japanese religion of Shintoism.​[SIZE=+3]*The Octogon*[/SIZE]




[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]​
_The Octagon is perhaps the most important aspect of the mon in the study of the physical arts._ 
*First Representation*: The Eightfold Path of Buddhism: 
Right Speech
Right Understanding
Right Means of Livelihood
Right Effort
Right Meditation
Right Action
Right Intention
Right Awareness
*Second Representation*: Mon Gaku, the Study of the Crest 
*Third Representation*: Hakkakkei Densho Gaku, Ethical Study of the Octogon 
Juchnik Hanshi goes into great detail on the Octogon, the Eightfold Path, Mon Gaku, and Hakkakkei Densho Gaku in his first book, The Last Disciple, pages 95 to 171. He relates the philosophies briefly touched upon here to physical arts, strategies and philosophies of solving conflict. This book is strongly recommended to anyone seriously studying Kempo. ​



[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Mon Gaku*[/FONT]​The above categories, _Energy Collection_, _Healing Arts_, _Japanese Yoga_, _Escaping Arts_, _Philosophy_, _Folding Arts_, _Meditation_, and _War Arts_, are the major areas of study within Kosho Ryu. In each category, the practitioner will find endless study. This is Kempo. 
*Angle One: Energy Collection*
Energy Collection includes, but is not limited to the study of breathing, posture, triangulation of alignments, timing, visualization, energy gathering and projection exercizes, kata, kumite, and bunkai. 
*Angle Two: Healing Arts*
Healing Arts include, but are not limited to the study of the Five Element Theory, anatomy, physiology, body systems, shiatsu, anma, nutrition, herbology, the study of boshin, bunshin, munshin, and setsushin (diagnostic techniques), posture, energy projection and gathering, kata, kumite, and bunkai. 
*Angle Three: Japanese Yoga*
Japanese Yoga includes, but is not limited to the study of stretching and conditioning exercizes designed specifically for the study of the Kosho Ryu martial arts as well as for general fitness, breathing, posture, triangulation of alignments, timing, visualization, energy gathering and projection exercizes, kata, kumite, and bunkai. 
*Angle Four: Escaping Arts*
Escaping Arts include, but are not limited to the study of breathing, posture, natural movement, triangulation of alignments, timing, jumping patterns, angling, eye training with respect to cutting down negative stimuli in reactions, falling techniques, hearing arts, arts of reading the opponent's intent, the study of metabolism, kata, kumite, and bunkai. 
*Angle Five: Philosophy*
Philosophy includes, but is not limited to the study of the mon, and of culture, history, awareness of the physical self, awareness of the spiritual self, kata, kumite, and bunkai. 
*Angle Six: Folding Arts*
Folding Arts include, but are not limited to the study of fundamental throwing techniques, fundamental releasing techniques, fundamental ground techniques, breathing, leverage, anatomy, natural movement, entering motion, engagement and disengagement with a moving opponent, kyo and jitsu, kata, kumite, and bunkai. 
*Angle Seven: Meditation*
Meditation includes, but is not limited to the study of Shodo (Japanese Brush Calligraphy), Ikebana (Japanese Flower Arranging), Iaido (swordsmanship practice for the sharpening of the mind and spirit), comprehensive understanding of philosophy and energy collection, history, understanding of kokoro, kime (focus), kata, kumite, and bunkai. 
*Angle Eight: War Arts*
War Arts include, but are not limited to the study of strategy, timing, posture and posturing, angling, combative distancing, Kenjutsu (Japanese fencing), Iaijutsu (swordsmanship with combative application done from the sheathed posture), Naginatajutsu (Halberd arts), Sojutsu (Spearmanship), Bojutsu (long staff arts), Jojutsu (short staff arts), Tantojutsu (knife arts), natural movement, vital point striking techniques, muscular strikes, skeletal strikes and bone smashing, nerve strikes, internal strikes, breathing, triangulation of alignments, energy gathering and projection exercizes, kata, kumite, and bunkai. ​


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## Benjp

I disagree that kosho ryu has a "ground-blindness".  The principles are the same be it on your feet or on your back.

To answer some of the orignal poster's questions:

No techniques means you make it up on the fly.  Unlike american kenpo and tracy's (at least from what I've seen), in kosho randoori the attacker doesn't stop after the first punch but continues attacking until "subdued".  This usually leads to combat at each of the ranges (striking, grappling, clinching).  If the randoori gets out of control, then using the principles of kosho on  the ground become very important.

Striking:
Kosho ryu has two primary striking types male and female.  Roughly speaking, hard and soft striking.

Sparring:
Kosho ryu does have sparring (at least at my school).  We do full contact with protective gear.

Hope this helps,

Ben


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## selfdefensemaniac

Only A Question.
If There Is Some Kind Of Diference Between The Kosho Of Thomas Mitose And Bruce Juchnic?
What Is It?


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## bushidomartialarts

Benjp said:


> I disagree that kosho ryu has a "ground-blindness".  The principles are the same be it on your feet or on your back.



While this is true of all kenpo styles (in theory five swords would work on the ground), I haven't seen many kenpo schools -- kosho or otherwise -- that spend a lot of time _training_ those concepts on the ground.  Every style has its strengths and weaknesses.  Ground work is ours.


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## BlackCatBonz

If you're spending too much time on the ground.....it's not kosho.
ne-waza is no different than the standing stuff........if you wanna work it on the ground, get down there and work it.
The ne-waza in BJJ is identical to that in kodokan judo along with some minor variation.
You don't want to go to the ground anyway.
The principles in Kosho differ greatly than what you see in Aikido.
They are more inline with classical jujutsu, eg. collapsing your opponent at your feet in a way that prevents effective ukemi, as opposed to the large circular throws you see in aikido.

extensive groundwork is over-rated....this isn't a sport.

now i know i will hear all the yada yada about the importance of groundwork....bring it on.


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## bushidomartialarts

BlackCatBonz said:


> now i know i will hear all the yada yada about the importance of groundwork....bring it on.



I hope not.  This _is _the kenpo forum after all.


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## LegLockGuy

BlackCatBonz said:


> If you're spending too much time on the ground.....it's not kosho.
> ne-waza is no different than the standing stuff........if you wanna work it on the ground, get down there and work it.
> The ne-waza in BJJ is identical to that in kodokan judo along with some minor variation.
> You don't want to go to the ground anyway.
> The principles in Kosho differ greatly than what you see in Aikido.
> They are more inline with classical jujutsu, eg. collapsing your opponent at your feet in a way that prevents effective ukemi, as opposed to the large circular throws you see in aikido.
> 
> extensive groundwork is over-rated....this isn't a sport.
> 
> now i know i will hear all the yada yada about the importance of groundwork....bring it on.



Oh god, the whole "n0t sp0rt!" arguement. Ground is important anywhere.


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## BlackCatBonz

LegLockGuy said:


> Oh god, the whole "n0t sp0rt!" arguement. Ground is important anywhere.


 
OK, tell me how ground is important when you are a bouncer in a bar.
There are 1/2 a dozen people fighting with broken glass everywhere.
you can lay down on the floor......i will stay standing.
Trust me, I had plenty of guys try to pull me to the floor thinking they were "jiu jitsu" experts.


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## bushidomartialarts

BlackCatBonz said:


> OK, tell me how ground is important when you are a bouncer in a bar.
> There are 1/2 a dozen people fighting with broken glass everywhere.
> you can lay down on the floor......i will stay standing.
> Trust me, I had plenty of guys try to pull me to the floor thinking they were "jiu jitsu" experts.



Didn't you just express disdain for the conversation you've just started?

I agree with you and disagree with you.  On the one had, yeah -- ground's important.  If only so you can counter the stuff ground guys want to use, or at the very least get up if you've been tripped, thrown or sucker punched.  Only the very inexperienced believe they'll _never_ wind up on the ground.

Where I do agree is that most people seem to place exaggerated importance on ground skills (I blame MMA).  If I take you down and set you up for an arm bar on the street, I impale myself on broken glass.  And get road rash off the pavement.  And get kicked in the head by your buddy.  

When I was bouncing, I'd had 7 years of wrestling and 6 of kenpo.  I used more kenpo than I did wrestling, but I still used my wrestling -- mostly to avoid landing hard from a throw or to get up after getting knocked down.


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## kosho

*If There Is Some Kind Of Diference Between The Kosho Of Thomas Mitose And Bruce Juchnic?*

 I have never been to a Seminar with Thomas Mitose, and If I ever get the chance to go I will. But from what I under stand most of his trainings where in Kajukenbo I will be training With Hanshi Juchnik in the end of may and will ask him. about it also.
Thanks
 kosho


* 


*


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## Benjp

bushidomartialarts said:


> While this is true of all kenpo styles (in theory five swords would work on the ground), I haven't seen many kenpo schools -- kosho or otherwise -- that spend a lot of time _training_ those concepts on the ground.  Every style has its strengths and weaknesses.  Ground work is ours.



In our school, in randoori if you don't escape then you had better have a good three point lock and be able to keep it.  Especially if the uke is our instructor.  Without these, you will need good ground work or your toast.

Of course this applies only for the senior ranking students.  One of the reasons you'll see little ground work in a school is because most Kosho styles wish to _avoid_ conflict.


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## BlackCatBonz

bushidomartialarts said:


> Didn't you just express disdain for the conversation you've just started?
> 
> I agree with you and disagree with you. On the one had, yeah -- ground's important. If only so you can counter the stuff ground guys want to use, or at the very least get up if you've been tripped, thrown or sucker punched. Only the very inexperienced believe they'll _never_ wind up on the ground.
> 
> Where I do agree is that most people seem to place exaggerated importance on ground skills (I blame MMA). If I take you down and set you up for an arm bar on the street, I impale myself on broken glass. And get road rash off the pavement. And get kicked in the head by your buddy.
> 
> *When I was bouncing, I'd had 7 years of wrestling and 6 of kenpo. I used more kenpo than I did wrestling, but I still used my wrestling -- mostly to avoid landing hard from a throw or to get up after getting knocked down*.


 
bingo


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## kelly keltner

wow


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## Kosho Gakkusei

Just went to a Seminar by Bruce Juchnik in Conneticut where he shared what he thought about UFC.  He said that while it was entertaining from a Martial Arts perspective he thought it was little more than half naked, sweaty men rolling around on the floor together.  Speaking of half naked men and the value of ground "game"- spike tv on Thursday had a UFC reality show where 2 of the contestants were drinking and got into an actual fight.  One was a Muy Thai guy and the other was BJJ.  During the fight the BJJ guy tried an arm bar or a triangle choke and the Muy Thai guy picked him up and slammed his head on the concrete deck - so much for that submission.

_don flatt


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## kosho

Hello,
          I went to the same seminar in C.T. to Sensei _George Chaber's Dojo. First- great time tons of infomation. What I liked about the Seminar was it was movement and work...Working Controlling, Distance and time of ones body with the movements of the attacker or attackers. _
_Hanshi showed us some kicking drills and things that have to happen for the body to work at its best power. The use of angles and offense and defense drills. Foot work and Body Mechanics. Octagon drills and movement. Working a blocking drill that set up other things from that point of angles, ETC<ETC<ETC<_
_Great time._
_ KOSHO_


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## LegLockGuy

I'm sorry but thats the stupidest thing ever to say. "So much for submission" The guy was a dumbass, you dont pull guard on the street. You go for a takedown and apply the submission/choke.



Kosho Gakkusei said:


> Just went to a Seminar by Bruce Juchnik in Conneticut where he shared what he thought about UFC. He said that while it was entertaining from a Martial Arts perspective he thought it was little more than half naked, sweaty men rolling around on the floor together. Speaking of half naked men and the value of ground "game"- spike tv on Thursday had a UFC reality show where 2 of the contestants were drinking and got into an actual fight. One was a Muy Thai guy and the other was BJJ. During the fight the BJJ guy tried an arm bar or a triangle choke and the Muy Thai guy picked him up and slammed his head on the concrete deck - so much for that submission.
> 
> _don flatt


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## Kosho Gakkusei

LegLockGuy said:


> I'm sorry but thats the stupidest thing ever to say. "So much for submission" The guy was a dumbass, you dont pull guard on the street. You go for a takedown and apply the submission/choke.


 
You've misquoted me, sir.  I said, "So much for THAT submission."

I'm not saying submissions are useless but on the street there are inherant problems with utilizing submissions.  Specifically, environmental risks, multiple attackers, & no rules or referee.

Environmental risks: Rolling on broken glass, getting slammed into concrete or rocks, sewage grates, buildings, garbage cans, dumpsters, brick walls, used hypodermic needles, and moving vehicles.

Without rules or a referee pain compliance is a bad idea because different people have different pain tolerences. Not to mention that attackers will develop a tolerance for the pain compliance technique the longer it is on.  So that leaves us with a choke or a joint lock.  In my opinion the choke is superior because if you break an arm or joint you will have legal consequences.  Tapping is irrelevant on the street.  Let's say you make me tap on the street - who's to say once you let off your lock that I won't attack you?  What ever you do on the street you better be ready to finish it.  This is what makes chokes superior on the street but then again if you choke someone out it's not really a submission.  The very idea of submission carries the idea of a contest.  There is one distinction to be made - for law enforcement - restraining a perpetrator until back-up arrives is not only useful but is expected. Better hope that you don't have to wait too long with a resistant perpetrator.

_Don Flatt


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## LegLockGuy

Yeah, because I wouldn't want to go for a kimura on the steet cause I might get bit by a lava spewing snake that has glass shards for fangs.

The multiple attacker thing is bogus, if you get attacked by multiple attackers, chances are youll get whooped anyway.


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## LegLockGuy

By the way... hypodermic needle for the win!



LegLockGuy said:


> Yeah, because I wouldn't want to go for a kimura on the steet cause I might get bit by a lava spewing snake that has glass shards for fangs.
> 
> The multiple attacker thing is bogus, if you get attacked by multiple attackers, chances are youll get whooped anyway.


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## John Bishop

LegLockGuy said:


> The multiple attacker thing is bogus, if you get attacked by multiple attackers, chances are youll get whooped anyway.



Really?  Ask this guy:
http://www.flixya.com/turkish-man-fights-mob

Some standup fighters claim they don't have to learn any grappling because they intend to stay on their feet.  

Some grapplers claim they don't need to learn multiple man defenses because "chances are you'll get whooped anyway".

Both excuses for not becoming well rounded fighters.  And both weaknesses that should be addressed.


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## Kosho-Monk

Well said, Mr. Bishop.

Sensei Pat Kelly - one of Kosho Ryu's top teachers - said at a recent seminar I attended that he is a martial artist, so that means he trains in all aspects of martial arts.  During his "Kosho" seminar we were taught many things from standing up to the ground.

He also said, "I can tap with the best of them!"  

He sees the value in all arts and in all teachers.  If you ever get a chance to take a class from him it is well worth it.


Warm regards,
John Evans


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## BlackCatBonz

LegLockGuy said:


> Yeah, because I wouldn't want to go for a kimura on the steet cause I might get bit by a lava spewing snake that has glass shards for fangs.
> 
> The multiple attacker thing is bogus, if you get attacked by multiple attackers, chances are youll get whooped anyway.


 
well, it sounds like you have this whole fighting thing figured out........must be all of those hours you spent rolling around in the middle of the road.

thanks for your words of wisdom.


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## Danjo

John Bishop said:


> Really? Ask this guy:
> http://www.flixya.com/turkish-man-fights-mob
> 
> Some standup fighters claim they don't have to learn any grappling because they intend to stay on their feet.
> 
> Some grapplers claim they don't need to learn multiple man defenses because "chances are you'll get whooped anyway".
> 
> Both excuses for not becoming well rounded fighters. And both weaknesses that should be addressed.


 
But...but...but...ah never mind. That guy kicked some serious tail and the fight never went to the ground. ---sigh---


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## Flying Crane

LegLockGuy said:


> The multiple attacker thing is bogus, if you get attacked by multiple attackers, chances are youll get whooped anyway.


 
I was attacked by about 5 or so punks on the street, a couple years ago.  I kept moving, didn't engage, took the first opening and ran.  They couldn't catch me.  THAT'S self defense: I got away with no injuries.  I didn't get "whooped anyway".  If I had engaged in a way that turned into a ground fight, they would have circled me and kicked my head in.  Recognize when you are in a bad situation and get the hell out.

If you go to the ground and decide to stick around to "win" the submission, you are approaching the fight with a competition mentality.  Maybe you will win, maybe you will lose.  Depends on many things.

If you go to the ground and look for effective ways to break away, give a couple of good shots to stop or at least slow him down, then get back on your feet to either continue the fight from there or else simply escape, then you are dealing with the situation with the mindset of self-defense.

Sure, groundwork is important, but not necessarily the ability to grapple and roll for an extended period of time.  Rather, a familiarity with groundwork, with the ability to break away and get away is what is important, for effective self-defense.  

That isn't to say that more extensive ground game isn't useful or valuable.  But it isn't necessarily what is most important in self-defense.


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## Kosho Gakkusei

LegLockGuy said:


> Yeah, because I wouldn't want to go for a kimura on the steet cause I might get bit by a lava spewing snake that has glass shards for fangs.
> 
> The multiple attacker thing is bogus, if you get attacked by multiple attackers, chances are youll get whooped anyway.


 
So maybe I should go to the ground in that crowded club and not worry about getting trampled or someone stomp kicking my head?
...or...
 I should see if I can get that gang banger to tap before his homies kick my ribcage in?

I'm not saying one does not need to study grappling - I personally do.  I like grappling.  I wrestle frequently and occasion a local MMA gym from time to time.  I also watch UFC - less from martial arts value and more for  entertaining value.  I think it's a better sport to watch than boxing.

I even study submissions and locks for two reasons:
1: Studying submissions and locks means not only learning to apply them but also how to defend against them.  Just because I will aim to keep from going to the ground does not mean I don't want to know how to get back up if I do end up there.  Just because I think submission is not the best option for the street does not mean I don't want to know how to defend against one.

2: Locks make great transitions and set ups for strikes, throws or just plain running away.  I think striking and throwing are superior for self defense because they achieve their results quicker.  But for true self defense, getting away without harm would be the ultimate goal.

Personally, I've been in about a dozen or so street fights most before I turned 18.  Of the 12 or so fights only 2 went to the ground.  On both occaisions my opponent tried to tackle me and I used a hip wheel throw that I learned in Judo that ended with me on top with them in a headlock.  

The 1st time I was about 13 or 14 and as I was choking the kid out I found myself surrounded by 5 of his friends.  Believe me I got up quick!  Once up I knew that no matter how hard they hit me I better not go down and I didn't.

The 2nd time a fight went to the ground I was 16 and my opponent found himself in the same choke hold.  Before he lost conciousness from the choke he managed to get my arm into his mouth and bit me.  Suffice it to say that fight ended on the feet.

LegLockGuy, maybe the street fights you've experienced were just different than mine and that's why we see things differently.  Maybe in your neighborhood they only fight on surfaces that won't hurt you if you fall on them.  Maybe in your neighborhood they fight until some one taps and when they do the tappee says, "You win. I give up." and means it.  Maybe in your neighborhood they won't claw, bite, poke eyes, or break fingers to get out of a choke hold.  Maybe in your neighborhood they don't strike to the base of the skull, strike or grab the groin, or knee and kick to the head when you're on the ground.  You have a nice neighborhood.  Let me know where it is, maybe I'll move there.  But then again the officials might not let me in because I don't have a history of fighting that way.

I won't be trying to utilize the triangle choke in the event I'm getting jumped by the Bloods or the Crips and I'll do the best to stay on my feet and get the heck out of there because I know what a Newark Curb Kick is.  If I get a gun pulled on me I might use a Kote Gaesh but my objective would not be to get the gun man to tap but rather to take posession of the weapon.

Just trying to make a point.

_Don Flatt


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## Danjo

Flying Crane said:


> I was attacked by about 5 or so punks on the street, a couple years ago. I kept moving, didn't engage, took the first opening and ran. They couldn't catch me. THAT'S self defense: I got away with no injuries. I didn't get "whooped anyway". If I had engaged in a way that turned into a ground fight, they would have circled me and kicked my head in. Recognize when you are in a bad situation and get the hell out.
> 
> If you go to the ground and decide to stick around to "win" the submission, you are approaching the fight with a competition mentality. Maybe you will win, maybe you will lose. Depends on many things.
> 
> If you go to the ground and look for effective ways to break away, give a couple of good shots to stop or at least slow him down, then get back on your feet to either continue the fight from there or else simply escape, then you are dealing with the situation with the mindset of self-defense.
> 
> Sure, groundwork is important, but not necessarily the ability to grapple and roll for an extended period of time. Rather, a familiarity with groundwork, with the ability to break away and get away is what is important, for effective self-defense.
> 
> That isn't to say that more extensive ground game isn't useful or valuable. But it isn't necessarily what is most important in self-defense.


 
You've just underscored the whole idea of "self defense" versus fighting, guarding, protecting, enforcing etc. All have different goals in mind. Self defense is what most people are training for IMO and avoidance and running away at the first opportunity are corner stones of that philosophy. The combat techniques that are employed are going to be used towards that end, i.e., getting away as soon as possible with as little injury as possible. In other words, if you are able to get away with your skin in tact, you win.

Guarding something or someone involves you putting yourself between someone and the object or person you're guarding which is a totally different goal. Tackling them to the ground might well be what is required in order to stop them from getting to the thing or person being guarded. If your client or object is safe at the end, you win.

In enforcement professions such as police work or bouncing, the goal is also different. In those cases, one has to willingly insert oneself into a violent situation and often initiate physical contact with the person. Each goal is going to have overlap with the others in terms of techniques employed, but they will each have different ones also. If the rules are enforced and order is restored, you win.


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## MJS

LegLockGuy said:


> Yeah, because I wouldn't want to go for a kimura on the steet cause I might get bit by a lava spewing snake that has glass shards for fangs.
> 
> The multiple attacker thing is bogus, if you get attacked by multiple attackers, chances are youll get whooped anyway.


 
First off, there is no need to get sarcastic with posts.  We're having a good discussion here, and I think everyone would like it to stay that way.

As for the above comments:  There is a time and a place for everything.  Depending on the situation being presented, that is what determines your response.  Is it wise to roll around on the ground?  First off, if I landed there the last thing I plan on doing is staying there.  I want to get back to my feet.  The environmental things you may find on the street are things you shouldn't shrug off.  Do I want to roll on the ground in a packed club or bar, as Kosho Gakkusei stated?  Will there be room or will the guys friend(s) be kicking me from behind while I try to secure a choke??

As for mult attackers:  This is something that should be trained.  The idea that you will always be whooped, as you state, is your opinion, not fact.  FC made some great points with his post.  

Again, lets keep things civil!:ultracool

Mike


----------



## RevIV

Thats a great video clip.(besides someone getting attacked that is). gives me some great ideas for drills in class tonight.  



John Bishop said:


> Really? Ask this guy:
> http://www.flixya.com/turkish-man-fights-mob
> 
> Some standup fighters claim they don't have to learn any grappling because they intend to stay on their feet.
> 
> Some grapplers claim they don't need to learn multiple man defenses because "chances are you'll get whooped anyway".
> 
> Both excuses for not becoming well rounded fighters. And both weaknesses that should be addressed.


----------



## RevIV

--


----------



## Flying Crane

Danjo said:


> You've just underscored the whole idea of "self defense" versus fighting, guarding, protecting, enforcing etc. All have different goals in mind. Self defense is what most people are training for IMO and avoidance and running away at the first opportunity are corner stones of that philosophy. The combat techniques that are employed are going to be used towards that end, i.e., getting away as soon as possible with as little injury as possible. In other words, if you are able to get away with your skin in tact, you win.
> 
> Guarding something or someone involves you putting yourself between someone and the object or person you're guarding which is a totally different goal. Tackling them to the ground might well be what is required in order to stop them from getting to the thing or person being guarded. If your client or object is safe at the end, you win.
> 
> In enforcement professions such as police work or bouncing, the goal is also different. In those cases, one has to willingly insert oneself into a violent situation and often initiate physical contact with the person. Each goal is going to have overlap with the others in terms of techniques employed, but they will each have different ones also. If the rules are enforced and order is restored, you win.


 
Absolutely correct.  The purpose of the engagement determines a lot of things, including what kind of techniques and what approach to fighting is most appropriate.


----------



## Kosho Gakkusei

LegLockGuy said:


> The multiple attacker thing is bogus, if you get attacked by multiple attackers, chances are youll get whooped anyway.


 
I've found myself facing multiple attackers on 3 different occaisions.  On 1 occaision I outran them.  On another I dropped 3 guys before they were able to touch me.  On the occaision I mentioned in my earlier post I managed to stay standing for what seemed like an eternity but was probably only a few moments until one of my attackers missed me and almost fell into a catch basin and I caught him and pulled him up - then they stopped attacking.

_Don Flatt


----------



## Danjo

My brother and I took on four guys together once. They clipped me with their car at a community college back in 1986. He threw his tennis racket through the partially rolled down rear door window and they stopped and got out. They were all pretty big guys. We creamed the first three and the fourth guy, the driver, ran back to his car and I chased him and started punching him out through his window. Well, as luck would have it the college police drove up right then and arrested the lot of us. I couldn't plead self defense because I had chased him etc. It all got reduced to "disturbing the peace" etc.

The whole "No one can deal with multiple attackers" was started by the BJJ guys in answer to that question. In Brazil, ther eis an honor system when two guys decide to fight. No one jumps in and it's considered a disgrace to do so. That might go a ways to explaining why the Gracies were never worried about it.


----------



## BlackCatBonz

Danjo said:


> You've just underscored the whole idea of "self defense" versus fighting, guarding, protecting, enforcing etc. All have different goals in mind. Self defense is what most people are training for IMO and avoidance and running away at the first opportunity are corner stones of that philosophy. The combat techniques that are employed are going to be used towards that end, i.e., getting away as soon as possible with as little injury as possible. In other words, if you are able to get away with your skin in tact, you win.
> 
> Guarding something or someone involves you putting yourself between someone and the object or person you're guarding which is a totally different goal. Tackling them to the ground might well be what is required in order to stop them from getting to the thing or person being guarded. If your client or object is safe at the end, you win.
> 
> In enforcement professions such as police work or bouncing, the goal is also different. In those cases, one has to willingly insert oneself into a violent situation and often initiate physical contact with the person. Each goal is going to have overlap with the others in terms of techniques employed, but they will each have different ones also. If the rules are enforced and order is restored, you win.


 
indeed.


----------



## koshonokenza

Hello all! This is my first post,and I think its fitting that we get back to the original question posted by "Leg Lock Guy" Instead of having a discussion on who can beat up the most people in a multipile attacker scenierio. Your question in regards to" Kosho Ryu having no techniques "can be answered simply. There are thousands of techniques in Kosho Ryu.There just not taught in a curriculum based format, Such as Parker Kenpo, Cerio Kenpo etc,etc..For example, In the Villari Kempo system there are numbered techniques, in Tracy and Parker Kenpo there are named techniques. In Kosho Ryu we teach basic fundamental's in Stricking,Kicking,Locking,Throwing,Evading etc.. We use drills to develope these skill sets and practice them to better understand how are bodies should move. We then practice implementing this skills through the basic understanding of proper distancing,timing and positioning. The same way a grappler would work on a kimura lock for half a class,and then the instructor would say" O.K time to roll for 10 minutes,I want you guys to work that kimura into your sparring session." When someone says Kosho Ryu doesn't have technique's,it just means we don't have prearranged defenses to particular attacks. However, to become profficient in any art, you need to practice the basic movements of a particular waza hundreds if not thousands of times in a controlled enviornment before you can perform it in real time against a committed attack. Because Kosho Ryu is taught as a conceptionally based art, especially by Bruce Juchnik Hanshi. People who have not yet developed the skills in there basics believe they can just apply the movements in Kosho Ryu because the Law of Physics states that they can! This is just not so! Kosho Ryu is a very complex art and takes intense practice to become a profficient practitioner. Timing, Positioning ,Distancing Aillignments all play a role in any Martial Art. Kosho Ryu is no different. The fact that we don't do prearranged techniques, doesn't make Kosho Ryu better or worse then any other martial art,we just approach the learning process in a different way. To quote one of My peer's in the SKSKI " Because we don't deal with an attack with a prearranged plan,our plan can't be foiled." Kempo is a study, and like anything, there are many times that you will fail on your journey to understanding its deeper meanings. I personally have been punched and kicked and thrown off balance more time's then I can count in my journey to better understand how to apply the teachings that have been passed on to me. I hope this in some way helps answer the question posted.

Tony DiSarro


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## kosho

*Hello all! This is my first post,and I think its fitting that we get back to the original question posted by "Leg Lock Guy" Instead of having a discussion on who can beat up the most people in a multipile attacker scenierio. Your question in regards to" Kosho Ryu having no techniques "can be answered simply. There are thousands of techniques in Kosho Ryu.There just not taught in a curriculum based format, Such as Parker Kenpo, Cerio Kenpo etc,etc..For example, In the Villari Kempo system there are numbered techniques, in Tracy and Parker Kenpo there are named techniques. In Kosho Ryu we teach basic fundamental's in Stricking,Kicking,Locking,Throwing,Evading etc.. We use drills to develope these skill sets and practice them to better understand how are bodies should move. We then practice implementing this skills through the basic understanding of proper distancing,timing and positioning. The same way a grappler would work on a kimura lock for half a class,and then the instructor would say" O.K time to roll for 10 minutes,I want you guys to work that kimura into your sparring session." When someone says Kosho Ryu doesn't have technique's,it just means we don't have prearranged defenses to particular attacks. However, to become profficient in any art, you need to practice the basic movements of a particular waza hundreds if not thousands of times in a controlled enviornment before you can perform it in real time against a committed attack. Because Kosho Ryu is taught as a conceptionally based art, especially by Bruce Juchnik Hanshi. People who have not yet developed the skills in there basics believe they can just apply the movements in Kosho Ryu because the Law of Physics states that they can! This is just not so! Kosho Ryu is a very complex art and takes intense practice to become a profficient practitioner. Timing, Positioning ,Distancing Aillignments all play a role in any Martial Art. Kosho Ryu is no different. The fact that we don't do prearranged techniques, doesn't make Kosho Ryu better or worse then any other martial art,we just approach the learning process in a different way. To quote one of My peer's in the SKSKI " Because we don't deal with an attack with a prearranged plan,our plan can't be foiled." Kempo is a study, and like anything, there are many times that you will fail on your journey to understanding its deeper meanings. I personally have been punched and kicked and thrown off balance more time's then I can count in my journey to better understand how to apply the teachings that have been passed on to me. I hope this in some way helps answer the question posted.

Tony DiSarro*

Well  said Shihan DiSarro, and I really Enjoyed The lake George Summit this year in new york. I look forward to training with you in Reno NV.
I will  have Hanshi Juchnik  out for a weekend seminar In Orange Ma the 2nd weekend in December of 2007. I will send you some info if you want ?
Kosho ( S Bonk )


----------



## Kosho Gakkusei

Welcome to the forum, Tony!

Great 1st post!  Pretty much summarizes why I love and somestimes hate Kosho.  We need to make plans to get together for another private lesson.

_Don Flatt


----------



## Danjo

koshonokenza said:


> Hello all! This is my first post,and I think its fitting that we get back to the original question posted by "Leg Lock Guy" Instead of having a discussion on who can beat up the most people in a multipile attacker scenierio. Your question in regards to" Kosho Ryu having no techniques "can be answered simply. There are thousands of techniques in Kosho Ryu.There just not taught in a curriculum based format, Such as Parker Kenpo, Cerio Kenpo etc,etc..For example, In the Villari Kempo system there are numbered techniques, in Tracy and Parker Kenpo there are named techniques. In Kosho Ryu we teach basic fundamental's in Stricking,Kicking,Locking,Throwing,Evading etc.. We use drills to develope these skill sets and practice them to better understand how are bodies should move. We then practice implementing this skills through the basic understanding of proper distancing,timing and positioning. The same way a grappler would work on a kimura lock for half a class,and then the instructor would say" O.K time to roll for 10 minutes,I want you guys to work that kimura into your sparring session." When someone says Kosho Ryu doesn't have technique's,it just means we don't have prearranged defenses to particular attacks. However, to become profficient in any art, you need to practice the basic movements of a particular waza hundreds if not thousands of times in a controlled enviornment before you can perform it in real time against a committed attack. Because Kosho Ryu is taught as a conceptionally based art, especially by Bruce Juchnik Hanshi. People who have not yet developed the skills in there basics believe they can just apply the movements in Kosho Ryu because the Law of Physics states that they can! This is just not so! Kosho Ryu is a very complex art and takes intense practice to become a profficient practitioner. Timing, Positioning ,Distancing Aillignments all play a role in any Martial Art. Kosho Ryu is no different. The fact that we don't do prearranged techniques, doesn't make Kosho Ryu better or worse then any other martial art,we just approach the learning process in a different way. To quote one of My peer's in the SKSKI " Because we don't deal with an attack with a prearranged plan,our plan can't be foiled." Kempo is a study, and like anything, there are many times that you will fail on your journey to understanding its deeper meanings. I personally have been punched and kicked and thrown off balance more time's then I can count in my journey to better understand how to apply the teachings that have been passed on to me. I hope this in some way helps answer the question posted.
> 
> Tony DiSarro


 
Well, afer three years of asking about this, this is probably the single best post on this topic I've ever read. You actually came out and answered the question in a non-evasive, non-defensive manner using logic and thouroughness. Thanks.


----------



## Flying Crane

koshonokenza said:


> Hello all! This is my first post,and I think its fitting that we get back to the original question posted by "Leg Lock Guy" Instead of having a discussion on who can beat up the most people in a multipile attacker scenierio. Your question in regards to" Kosho Ryu having no techniques "can be answered simply. There are thousands of techniques in Kosho Ryu.There just not taught in a curriculum based format, Such as Parker Kenpo, Cerio Kenpo etc,etc..For example, In the Villari Kempo system there are numbered techniques, in Tracy and Parker Kenpo there are named techniques. In Kosho Ryu we teach basic fundamental's in Stricking,Kicking,Locking,Throwing,Evading etc.. We use drills to develope these skill sets and practice them to better understand how are bodies should move. We then practice implementing this skills through the basic understanding of proper distancing,timing and positioning. The same way a grappler would work on a kimura lock for half a class,and then the instructor would say" O.K time to roll for 10 minutes,I want you guys to work that kimura into your sparring session." When someone says Kosho Ryu doesn't have technique's,it just means we don't have prearranged defenses to particular attacks. However, to become profficient in any art, you need to practice the basic movements of a particular waza hundreds if not thousands of times in a controlled enviornment before you can perform it in real time against a committed attack. Because Kosho Ryu is taught as a conceptionally based art, especially by Bruce Juchnik Hanshi. People who have not yet developed the skills in there basics believe they can just apply the movements in Kosho Ryu because the Law of Physics states that they can! This is just not so! Kosho Ryu is a very complex art and takes intense practice to become a profficient practitioner. Timing, Positioning ,Distancing Aillignments all play a role in any Martial Art. Kosho Ryu is no different. The fact that we don't do prearranged techniques, doesn't make Kosho Ryu better or worse then any other martial art,we just approach the learning process in a different way. To quote one of My peer's in the SKSKI " Because we don't deal with an attack with a prearranged plan,our plan can't be foiled." Kempo is a study, and like anything, there are many times that you will fail on your journey to understanding its deeper meanings. I personally have been punched and kicked and thrown off balance more time's then I can count in my journey to better understand how to apply the teachings that have been passed on to me. I hope this in some way helps answer the question posted.
> 
> Tony DiSarro


 

Thanks for this informative post, this supports and verifies some discussions that were carried out in other threads here a while back.

Sounds like Kosho Ryu is designed more like the traditional Chinese and Okinawan systems, which use few, if any, pre-choreographed self defense techniques.  Instead, the material beyond the basics is learned in the forms and kata, and extrapolated from that source.

I think perhaps a lot of kenpo people who have no experience with other systems don't realize that the Parker derived kenpo methods are somewhat unique in having a curriculum centered around Self-Defense techniques.  This kind of thing is actually a rarity among other systems.  Most others just don't use them, and it sounds like Kosho Ryu is more like these others.


----------



## John Bishop

Flying Crane said:


> I think perhaps a lot of kenpo people who have no experience with other systems don't realize that the Parker derived kenpo methods are somewhat unique in having a curriculum centered around Self-Defense techniques.  This kind of thing is actually a rarity among other systems.  Most others just don't use them, and it sounds like Kosho Ryu is more like these others.



Yes, I have to agree with this premise.  Kajukenbo is similar, in that it is centered around self defense sets, and free sparring.  And it's katas were primarily made from self defense techniques, instead of self defense techniques being taken from katas.  
I think if EPAK or Kajukenbo were being formulated today, there would no forms, or just a few basic ones for beginners.  
In the 40's-60's era, forms and martial arts just went hand and hand.  And for a system to be taken seriously, it had to have forms to be considered complete.


----------



## Kosho Gakkusei

Flying Crane said:


> Sounds like Kosho Ryu is designed more like the traditional Chinese and Okinawan systems, which use few, if any, pre-choreographed self defense techniques. Instead, the material beyond the basics is learned in the forms and kata, and extrapolated from that source.
> 
> I think perhaps a lot of kenpo people who have no experience with other systems don't realize that the Parker derived kenpo methods are somewhat unique in having a curriculum centered around Self-Defense techniques. This kind of thing is actually a rarity among other systems. Most others just don't use them, and it sounds like Kosho Ryu is more like these others.


 
That's correct.  Kosho does not have pre-choreographed self defense techniques.  There are about 30 empty hand Kata to Black Belt so what you're describing for traditional systems is pretty close.  I will emphasize that Kosho is concept and principle based.  The concepts and principles are not extrapolated from the Kata per se but rather they are taught and applied to the Kata as a training tool.

_Don Flatt


----------



## Danjo

Kosho Gakkusei said:


> That's correct. Kosho does not have pre-choreographed self defense techniques. There are about 30 empty hand Kata to Black Belt so what you're describing for traditional systems is pretty close. I will emphasize that Kosho is concept and principle based. The concepts and principles are not extrapolated from the Kata per se but rather they are taught and applied to the Kata as a training tool.
> 
> _Don Flatt


 
30 Kata? Man that seems like a lot of kata. Who designed them? How long are they etc.?


----------



## John Bishop

Kosho Gakkusei said:


> That's correct.  Kosho does not have pre-choreographed self defense techniques.  There are about 30 empty hand Kata to Black Belt so what you're describing for traditional systems is pretty close.  I will emphasize that Kosho is concept and principle based.  The concepts and principles are not extrapolated from the Kata per se but rather they are taught and applied to the Kata as a training tool.
> 
> _Don Flatt



That's a lot of katas.  Thomas Young told me that Mitose only taught "Naihanchi Shodan".  And nobody claims to have learned any katas from Mitose during prison visits.  
So who put the other 29 katas into the system?  Are they common Japanese/Okinawan katas, or newly created katas?


----------



## Kosho Gakkusei

I'll list the Kata I'm familiar with.  

*Juni Ippon Shodan - Sandan:* A basic Kata for begining students, literally means 12 Step.  Okinawan form created by Chosun Chibana, preserved in Kosho by Bruce Juchnik at the request of Robert Trias.

*Pinan Shodan - Godan:* Okinawan forms from Kyokoshin that was taught to Thomas Young by Bobby Lowe, permitted to be brought into the Official Self Defense Club by Mitose.  Bobby Lowe was a former student of Mitose that went on to study with Mas Oyama. Also called Heian in Shotokan, which translates to Peaceful Way.

*Neko Buto Shodan - Sandan:* A form created by and taught by Mitose.  Translates to Cat Dance.  Some of the following may stir controversy because people claim Mitose only did Naihanchi Shodan. Juchnik was shown this form by Trias who learned it from Mitose.  From what I've seen Neko Buto Shodan is almost identical to one of the Saru Buto forms done in Kajukembo.

*Naihanchi Shodan - Sandan:* Again, Mitose was known to perform the Shodan of this series which translates to Iron Horse.

*Ennogyo Shodan - Sandan:* Created by Bruce Juchnik translates to Monkey Playing.

*Naihano:*  Mitose's adaptation of Naihanchi.  Done 2 ways - Wide Base (hard) & Priest Posture (Soft).

*Miyama Shodan - Sandan:* Created by Bruce Juchnik translates to Three Mountain.

*Passai Dai & Sho:* Okinawan forms from Kyokoshin that was taught to Thomas Young by Bobby Lowe, permitted to be brought into the Official Self Defense Club by Mitose. Translates to Penetrating the Fortress.

*Kusanku Dai & Sho:* Okinawan forms from Kyokoshin that was taught to Thomas Young by Bobby Lowe, permitted to be brought into the Official Self Defense Club by Mitose. Named after a Chinese Military Attachment.

*Gankau:* Okinawan form from Kyokoshin that was taught to Thomas Young by Bobby Lowe, permitted to be brought into the Official Self Defense Club by Mitose.  Bobby Lowe was a former student of Mitose that went on to study with Mas Oyama. Translates to Crane on the Rock.

*Empi:* Okinawan forms from Kyokoshin that was taught to Thomas Young by Bobby Lowe, permitted to be brought into the Official Self Defense Club by Mitose. Translates to Flying Swallow.

*Shudoso:* One of Trias' forms taught to Juchnik. Translates to Priest Form.

I'm part of the third generation of students.  There have been other Kata in the Kai most of which are still taught but not part of the official syllabus.  The ones I know about are Mitose No Keiho and Tensho.  I'm not sure of the history of either of these.

_Don Flatt


----------



## John Bishop

Thank You

I do have a question about your reference to the "Saru Buto" kata of "Kajukembo".  
I have never heard of this form in "Kajukenbo" or "Kajukembo".  The forms of the "Original Method" were called "Pinans".  They were later (1993) renamed "Palama Sets".  The "Kajukembo" group comes from Aleju Reyes, so they also do the "original method" forms.  
The "Chuan Fa", "Wun Hop Kuen Do", and "Tum Pai" branches have added some Chinese forms like "Limpo" and "Fau Yup".

So where is it that you got the information about this "Saru Buto" kata?


----------



## Kosho Gakkusei

Maybe it was one of the Pinans.  That kind of rings a bell.  I meant Kajukenbo - sorry.

_Don Flatt


----------



## kosho

I'll list the Kata I'm familiar with. 

*Juni Ippon Shodan - Sandan:* A basic Kata for begining students, literally means 12 Step. Okinawan form created by Chosun Chibana, preserved in Kosho by Bruce Juchnik at the request of Robert Trias.

*Pinan Shodan - Godan:* Okinawan forms from Kyokoshin that was taught to Thomas Young by Bobby Lowe, permitted to be brought into the Official Self Defense Club by Mitose. Bobby Lowe was a former student of Mitose that went on to study with Mas Oyama. Also called Heian in Shotokan, which translates to Peaceful Way.

*Neko Buto Shodan - Sandan:* A form created by and taught by Mitose. Translates to Cat Dance. Some of the following may stir controversy because people claim Mitose only did Naihanchi Shodan. Juchnik was shown this form by Trias who learned it from Mitose. From what I've seen Neko Buto Shodan is almost identical to one of the Saru Buto forms done in Kajukembo.

*Naihanchi Shodan - Sandan:* Again, Mitose was known to perform the Shodan of this series which translates to Iron Horse.

*Ennogyo Shodan - Sandan:* Created by Bruce Juchnik translates to Monkey Playing.

*Naihano:* Mitose's adaptation of Naihanchi. Done 2 ways - Wide Base (hard) & Priest Posture (Soft).

*Miyama Shodan - Sandan:* Created by Bruce Juchnik translates to Three Mountain.

*Passai Dai & Sho:* Okinawan forms from Kyokoshin that was taught to Thomas Young by Bobby Lowe, permitted to be brought into the Official Self Defense Club by Mitose. Translates to Penetrating the Fortress.

*Kusanku Dai & Sho:* Okinawan forms from Kyokoshin that was taught to Thomas Young by Bobby Lowe, permitted to be brought into the Official Self Defense Club by Mitose. Named after a Chinese Military Attachment.

*Gankau:* Okinawan form from Kyokoshin that was taught to Thomas Young by Bobby Lowe, permitted to be brought into the Official Self Defense Club by Mitose. Bobby Lowe was a former student of Mitose that went on to study with Mas Oyama. Translates to Crane on the Rock.

*Empi:* Okinawan forms from Kyokoshin that was taught to Thomas Young by Bobby Lowe, permitted to be brought into the Official Self Defense Club by Mitose. Translates to Flying Swallow.

*Shudoso:* One of Trias' forms taught to Juchnik. Translates to Priest Form.

I'm part of the third generation of students. There have been other Kata in the Kai most of which are still taught but not part of the official syllabus. The ones I know about are Mitose No Keiho and Tensho. I'm not sure of the history of either of these.

_Don Flatt

Donn, 
         Sorry,  but  what do you mean you are familiar with? You have listed about say 24 katas.  So you can do all of them? or you have the history of the info of them? I just do not understand. 
Kosho


----------



## Danjo

Kosho Gakkusei said:


> I'll list the Kata I'm familiar with.
> 
> *Juni Ippon Shodan - Sandan:* A basic Kata for begining students, literally means 12 Step. Okinawan form created by Chosun Chibana, preserved in Kosho by Bruce Juchnik at the request of Robert Trias.
> 
> *Pinan Shodan - Godan:* Okinawan forms from Kyokoshin that was taught to Thomas Young by Bobby Lowe, permitted to be brought into the Official Self Defense Club by Mitose. Bobby Lowe was a former student of Mitose that went on to study with Mas Oyama. Also called Heian in Shotokan, which translates to Peaceful Way.
> 
> *Neko Buto Shodan - Sandan:* A form created by and taught by Mitose. Translates to Cat Dance. Some of the following may stir controversy because people claim Mitose only did Naihanchi Shodan. Juchnik was shown this form by Trias who learned it from Mitose. From what I've seen Neko Buto Shodan is almost identical to one of the Saru Buto forms done in Kajukembo.
> 
> *Naihanchi Shodan - Sandan:* Again, Mitose was known to perform the Shodan of this series which translates to Iron Horse.
> 
> *Ennogyo Shodan - Sandan:* Created by Bruce Juchnik translates to Monkey Playing.
> 
> *Naihano:* Mitose's adaptation of Naihanchi. Done 2 ways - Wide Base (hard) & Priest Posture (Soft).
> 
> *Miyama Shodan - Sandan:* Created by Bruce Juchnik translates to Three Mountain.
> 
> *Passai Dai & Sho:* Okinawan forms from Kyokoshin that was taught to Thomas Young by Bobby Lowe, permitted to be brought into the Official Self Defense Club by Mitose. Translates to Penetrating the Fortress.
> 
> *Kusanku Dai & Sho:* Okinawan forms from Kyokoshin that was taught to Thomas Young by Bobby Lowe, permitted to be brought into the Official Self Defense Club by Mitose. Named after a Chinese Military Attachment.
> 
> *Gankau:* Okinawan form from Kyokoshin that was taught to Thomas Young by Bobby Lowe, permitted to be brought into the Official Self Defense Club by Mitose. Bobby Lowe was a former student of Mitose that went on to study with Mas Oyama. Translates to Crane on the Rock.
> 
> *Empi:* Okinawan forms from Kyokoshin that was taught to Thomas Young by Bobby Lowe, permitted to be brought into the Official Self Defense Club by Mitose. Translates to Flying Swallow.
> 
> *Shudoso:* One of Trias' forms taught to Juchnik. Translates to Priest Form.
> 
> I'm part of the third generation of students. There have been other Kata in the Kai most of which are still taught but not part of the official syllabus. The ones I know about are Mitose No Keiho and Tensho. I'm not sure of the history of either of these.
> 
> _Don Flatt


 
Man that's a lot of kata. Doesn't seem like it would leave much time to train anything else trying to learn all those.

Which Pinan from Kajukenbo are you referring to? "Saru Buto" just means "Monkey Dance" which was a generic nickname for all the Kata back in the day. It was never referred to by using Japanese/Okinawan words though that I know of.


----------



## Flying Crane

Danjo said:


> Man that's a lot of kata. Doesn't seem like it would leave much time to train anything else trying to learn all those.


 
this list is only a dozen.  That's really not very many compared to a lot of the Chinese arts, and compared to what we have in Tracy Kenpo where I'd say we have at least twice that many or so including weapons kata.  Especially if these kata are kind of short (i don't know them, so I don't know if they are short or not), then it really wouldn't be that much, and would be quite manageable.

It's true that one probably doesn't need so many, just 3 or 4 good kata, learned well, would often be enough.  But that doesn't mean that this list would be overwhelming.


----------



## Kosho Gakkusei

kosho said:
			
		

> Donn,
> Sorry, but what do you mean you are familiar with? You have listed about say 24 katas. So you can do all of them? or you have the history of the info of them? I just do not understand.
> Kosho


 
These are the Kata outlined in the Kata No Michi text and DVD.  If you count all of the variations you come up with 29.  I've been studying the book and have attempted to do all of them.  Some I can do better than others because I understand them better.



			
				Danjo said:
			
		

> Man that's a lot of kata. Doesn't seem like it would leave much time to train anything else trying to learn all those.


 
They're meant to be studied and played with for the rest of your life.  It's not really meant to be approached from a learn and move on standpoint.  At different times in your study you will favor different Kata depending on what you are learning and what you discover.  Right now my favorite Kata is Miyama Shodan because I'm working on subtle and fluid circular movement using the lower body to manipulate the upper.



			
				Danjo said:
			
		

> Which Pinan from Kajukenbo are you referring to? "Saru Buto" just means "Monkey Dance" which was a generic nickname for all the Kata back in the day. It was never referred to by using Japanese/Okinawan words though that I know of.


 
Again, I'm not sure why I said Saru Buto - I heard somewhere before - probably on a forum.  I have heard Bruce Juchnik say that Neko Buto Shodan was identical to one of the Pinan Katas of Kajukenbo.  When I get a chance, I'll post a video and you can tell me which one.

_Don Flatt


----------



## Danjo

Flying Crane said:


> this list is only a dozen. That's really not very many compared to a lot of the Chinese arts, and compared to what we have in Tracy Kenpo where I'd say we have at least twice that many or so including weapons kata. Especially if these kata are kind of short (i don't know them, so I don't know if they are short or not), then it really wouldn't be that much, and would be quite manageable.
> 
> It's true that one probably doesn't need so many, just 3 or 4 good kata, learned well, would often be enough. But that doesn't mean that this list would be overwhelming.


 
Actually there are 28 kata listed as a requirement for black belt. shodan-godan = 5 kata. Shodan-Sandan=3 kata etc. Sho & Do = 2 kata.


----------



## Flying Crane

Danjo said:


> Actually there are 28 kata listed as a requirement for black belt. shodan-godan = 5 kata. Shodan-Sandan=3 kata etc. Sho & Do = 2 kata.


 

I guess I'm not quite sure what you are referencing here.  I don't know Kosho Ryu, so I cannot comment on any specifics of it.  I was just contrasting the numbers.

Are you stating there are 28 in the Kosho Ryu system?  Or some other context?

Even if this is what you are stating, while I agree, it is a lot, it is still not necessarily overwhelming.  I think Tracy Kenpo must have about that many, and some Chinese arts have at least that many, probably more.  I think Choy Li Fut has about a billion forms, they like to do A LOT of weapons, and have forms to cover just about everything imaginable.  Does everyone learn all of them?  Likely not.  Probably only a very few do.  But i suspect the average student (however that might be defined) learns quite a few.  

A friend of my sifu studied under Wong Jack Man in San Francisco.  While Sifu Wong was teaching the 10 Shaolin forms, he was actually teaching a lot more interspersed throughout.  He told me that he actually learned about 40 or so forms, by the time he had learned the 10 Shaolin.  Yes, he did find this somewhat overwhelming.  But he did it, it certainly can be done if one enjoys forms training and has an aptitude for it (not everyone fits this description, of course).

Anyway, I'm just offering some perspective, that's all.  What might me an overwhelming number for one person, might not be so much for another.


----------



## Danjo

Kosho Gakkusei said:


> They're meant to be studied and played with for the rest of your life. It's not really meant to be approached from a learn and move on standpoint.
> _Don Flatt


 
You said in an earlier post that _"There are about 30 empty hand Kata to Black Belt" _and you list 28 here, so that's what I was referring to. That's a lot of kata to learn to get to black belt.


----------



## Danjo

Flying Crane said:


> I guess I'm not quite sure what you are referencing here. I don't know Kosho Ryu, so I cannot comment on any specifics of it. I was just contrasting the numbers.
> 
> Are you stating there are 28 in the Kosho Ryu system? Or some other context?
> 
> Even if this is what you are stating, while I agree, it is a lot, it is still not necessarily overwhelming. I think Tracy Kenpo must have about that many, and some Chinese arts have at least that many, probably more. I think Choy Li Fut has about a billion forms, they like to do A LOT of weapons, and have forms to cover just about everything imaginable. Does everyone learn all of them? Likely not. Probably only a very few do. But i suspect the average student (however that might be defined) learns quite a few.
> 
> A friend of my sifu studied under Wong Jack Man in San Francisco. While Sifu Wong was teaching the 10 Shaolin forms, he was actually teaching a lot more interspersed throughout. He told me that he actually learned about 40 or so forms, by the time he had learned the 10 Shaolin. Yes, he did find this somewhat overwhelming. But he did it, it certainly can be done if one enjoys forms training and has an aptitude for it (not everyone fits this description, of course).
> 
> Anyway, I'm just offering some perspective, that's all. What might me an overwhelming number for one person, might not be so much for another.


 
He lists 28 kata in his post to get to black belt. Many systems have a lot of kata, but the requirements to black belt are far less than the total number contained in the system. In Shotokan there are at least 19 official kata, but only 8 are needed to black belt. the systems you mentioned (Aside from Tracy's) don't have black belts.


----------



## Flying Crane

Danjo said:


> the systems you mentioned (Aside from Tracy's) don't have black belts.


 
Yes, that is generally true, altho some teachers of Chinese arts have adapted belt systems.  I know that Choy Li Fut sifu Tat Mau Wong in San Francisco definitely uses a belt system.  How he divides the curriculum among the belts, and what is required for a first degree black belt, I certainly don't know, and I expect it is much less than the complete body of material.

Not having a belt system is sort of liberating when learning a lot of material.  You just keep learning it and don't worry about the ranks.  It just becomes that lifelong pursuit that you always work on.

In slightly less than 10 years of study under my sifu, I have learned about 30 forms, some external, some tai chi, some weaponry.  My sifu uses a ranking system, but it is mostly forgotten about and ignored.  He has never ranked anyone at black belt.  My first and only ranking with him came after training for about 6 or 7 years with him, he ranked me at green belt, somewhere in the middle.  I hardly even knew he used a ranking system prior to that, so it was just never an issue.

I have also learned the three primary hand forms of Wing Chun during this same time, from a different sifu. 

This is in addition to my training in Tracys, where I had learned 13 or so for shodan, and which I am now retraining.

I still practice all of them.  True, not as much as I would like because it is a lot of material, but I like it all and so keep practicing them all.  Some I like better and spend more time on, but I always keep the others as well.

anyway, I find it manageable.  so there it is, just my thoughts on the matter.


----------



## Kosho Gakkusei

Let me try this.

[yt]0Sx9GCbMkY4[/yt]

_Don Flatt


----------



## Todd Reiner

Kajukenbo #1, close anyways.


----------



## kosho

These are the Kata outlined in the Kata No Michi text and DVD. If you count all of the variations you come up with 29. I've been studying the book and have attempted to do all of them. Some I can do better than others because I understand them better.

*Ok, Yes I have the same book and dvds. I also have over 200 DVDs from Hanshi Juchnik I picked them up at the Lake george Summit. plus others from Pat kelly Sensei and many from John Evans Sensei.  Some personal ones made just for me. *

*Great Book by Hanshi with the katas.  Katas I have in my brain.*
*1-5 Pinan SKK,  1-6 kata SKK, 3 sia forms SKK, 3 staff forms, 2 nun- chuk katas SKK, Pinan 2 from PROF Kimo. Satue of the crane SKK,*
*North side, south side two man fist set SKK, Hansuki tiger SKK,*
*SHO TONG KWOK SKK, Circle of the leopard SKK, Pinan Geri SKK,*
* Off the top of my head this is some of the Shaolin Kempo Karate katas I have. I have Kosho Ryu kempo Katas. Donn F has listed the 29 in the Book. I will list the ones have have down later. But i have about 45 to my current rank.*
*Kosho

*


----------



## Kosho Gakkusei

kosho said:


> *Ok, Yes I have the same book and dvds. I also have over 200 DVDs from Hanshi Juchnik I picked them up at the Lake george Summit. plus others from Pat kelly Sensei and many from John Evans Sensei. Some personal ones made just for me. *


 
Your video collection is certainly larger than mine.  I have 51 from Hanshi Juchnik and 6 from Shihan Brown.  Pat Kelly & John Evans have videos?


_Don Flatt


----------



## marlon

kosho said:


> These are the Kata outlined in the Kata No Michi text and DVD. If you count all of the variations you come up with 29. I've been studying the book and have attempted to do all of them. Some I can do better than others because I understand them better.
> 
> *Ok, Yes I have the same book and dvds. I also have over 200 DVDs from Hanshi Juchnik I picked them up at the Lake george Summit. plus others from Pat kelly Sensei and many from John Evans Sensei. Some personal ones made just for me. *
> 
> *Great Book by Hanshi with the katas. Katas I have in my brain.*
> *1-5 Pinan SKK, 1-6 kata SKK, 3 sia forms SKK, 3 staff forms, 2 nun- chuk katas SKK, Pinan 2 from PROF Kimo. Satue of the crane SKK,*
> *North side, south side two man fist set SKK, Hansuki tiger SKK,*
> *SHO TONG KWOK SKK, Circle of the leopard SKK, Pinan Geri SKK,*
> *Off the top of my head this is some of the Shaolin Kempo Karate katas I have. I have Kosho Ryu kempo Katas. Donn F has listed the 29 in the Book. I will list the ones have have down later. But i have about 45 to my current rank.*
> *Kosho*


 
circle of leopard is NCK not SKK

respectfully,
marlon


----------



## kosho

Yes sorry Just got use to hitting the SKK buttons.
Circle of the Leopard is NCK...
Thanks, Kosho


----------



## kosho

Pat Kelly Sensei Has A Set Of Them I Think 8 Out Now.  I Have All But 1 I Think I Picked Them Up In Calf: At The Last Gathering.
I Also Paid Him To Make Me A Personal Dvd. He Filled It With A Ton Of Great Kosho Ryu Info...
John Evens Sensei Has A Dvd Out  1 -20 Combinations Teq Skk With Kosho Idears In Them.. Thats  A Good Dvd...
I Also Have Personal Ones By John Evans Sensei
He Makes A Great Dvd Set Of Info For You And It Is Made Around Your Needs And What Not... I Have Many From Him...
Ya I Think I Have Every Dvd Hanshi Has Made And If Not Really Close. If I Watched 1 Dvd A Month And Trained That Info It Would Take Me 16 1/2 Years To Go Threw Them All....next Time You  Are Up Donn I Will Show Ya...
Best To All,
Kosho


----------



## Danjo

So let me try to summarize here: Kosho Ryu is an art that is comprised of Okinawan and Kyokushin Basics and various Okinawan, Kajukenbo, Nick Cerio and Shaolin Kempo kata. 

For some mysterious reason, the actual art that Mitose had passed down to him from the previous 20 generations of grand masters is not taught as Kosho ryu, but rather this mixed bag of techniques from various branches of karate and kempo. Even his "Nihano" is a derivitive of an Okinawan kata Nihanchi.

So my question is: Where is the original art? Why are all of these techniques and Kata from different system called Koho Ryu when mixed together like this?


----------



## DavidCC

Danjo said:


> So let me try to summarize here: Kosho Ryu is an art that is comprised of Okinawan and Kyokushin Basics and various Okinawan, Kajukenbo, Nick Cerio and Shaolin Kempo kata.
> 
> For some mysterious reason, the actual art that Mitose had passed down to him from the previous 20 generations of grand masters is not taught as Kosho ryu, but rather this mixed bag of techniques from various branches of karate and kempo. Even his "Nihano" is a derivitive of an Okinawan kata Nihanchi.
> 
> So my question is: Where is the original art? Why are all of these techniques and Kata from different system called Koho Ryu when mixed together like this?


 
I guess that depends on which Kosho Ryu you mean: The one taught in Hawaii, or the one taught in Fulsom.


----------



## Kosho Gakkusei

Danjo said:
			
		

> So let me try to summarize here: Kosho Ryu is an art that is comprised of Okinawan and Kyokushin Basics and various Okinawan, Kajukenbo, Nick Cerio and Shaolin Kempo kata.
> 
> For some mysterious reason, the actual art that Mitose had passed down to him from the previous 20 generations of grand masters is not taught as Kosho ryu, but rather this mixed bag of techniques from various branches of karate and kempo. Even his "Nihano" is a derivitive of an Okinawan kata Nihanchi.
> 
> So my question is: Where is the original art? Why are all of these techniques and Kata from different system called Koho Ryu when mixed together like this?


 
Not quite.

Kosho has it's own set basics and drills.  Bruce Juchnik has added some Kyokoshin Kai Kata for historical reasons as Thomas Young was authorized to use them in the Official Self Defense Club.  A few Shuri Te Katas were also added by Hanshi Juchnik to reflect the influence Robert Trias had on him. I think Trias' art was Shuri Te.
NEKO BUTO KATA were developed by Mitose as a tribute to Gojen Yamaguchi.  Trias learned Neko Buto from Mitose before the Official Self Defense Club was even started and obviously before Kajukenbo was founded.  NaiHano was Mitose's application of Naihanchi to Kosho Principles.  As it is also well known that Mitose enjoyed Naihanchi and that is why modern Kosho also studies that one.
The rest of the forms - Ennogyo and Miyama were created by Hanshi Juchnik.  I think there were also some other forms that were taught in the syllabus before my time - Dan Ensho, Tensho, Mitose No Keiho, and possible others.  As I said before I know very little of those.

The SKK & Cerio Kata that Steve - Kosho listed are part of his backround in SKK.

All of those empty handed Kata reflect material added from Hawai and later.  My beleif is that previous to this period Kosho utilized Keiho (shorter drills both 2 man & one man) as opposed to the formal type Kata.

Your post reflects that you beleive all we do is study those Kata.  I'm not sure where you got that impression.  If it was from me please forgive my failure in communication.  In addition to the Kata, we utilize the Keiho I mentioned earlier, Iaido Kata, Jo Kata, & Shiatsu.  We are also expected to demonostrate understanding of the concepts and principles of Kosho by applying them to all the tools mentioned before, weaponry, and working with a live partner in a sort of Randori.


----------



## Danjo

Kosho Gakkusei said:


> Not quite.
> 
> Kosho has it's own set basics and drills. Bruce Juchnik has added some Kyokoshin Kai Kata for historical reasons as Thomas Young was authorized to use them in the Official Self Defense Club. A few Shuri Te Katas were also added by Hanshi Juchnik to reflect the influence Robert Trias had on him. I think Trias' art was Shuri Te.
> NEKO BUTO KATA were developed by Mitose as a tribute to Gojen Yamaguchi. Trias learned Neko Buto from Mitose before the Official Self Defense Club was even started and obviously before Kajukenbo was founded. NaiHano was Mitose's application of Naihanchi to Kosho Principles. As it is also well known that Mitose enjoyed Naihanchi and that is why modern Kosho also studies that one.
> The rest of the forms - Ennogyo and Miyama were created by Hanshi Juchnik. I think there were also some other forms that were taught in the syllabus before my time - Dan Ensho, Tensho, Mitose No Keiho, and possible others. As I said before I know very little of those.
> 
> The SKK & Cerio Kata that Steve - Kosho listed are part of his backround in SKK.
> 
> All of those empty handed Kata reflect material added from Hawai and later. My beleif is that previous to this period Kosho utilized Keiho (shorter drills both 2 man & one man) as opposed to the formal type Kata.
> 
> Your post reflects that you beleive all we do is study those Kata. I'm not sure where you got that impression. If it was from me please forgive my failure in communication. In addition to the Kata, we utilize the Keiho I mentioned earlier, Iaido Kata, Jo Kata, & Shiatsu. We are also expected to demonostrate understanding of the concepts and principles of Kosho by applying them to all the tools mentioned before, weaponry, and working with a live partner in a sort of Randori.


 
So Trias and Mitose worked together prior to 1950?

Where I got the impression was that that is one heck of a lot of kata to have to get down before black belt, so it would seem that there would be little time for anything else.


----------



## Kosho Gakkusei

Danjo said:


> So Trias and Mitose worked together prior to 1950?


 
Yes.  It's little known but I'm told that Trias is the one who actually encouraged Mitose to teach.  According to Young Trias knew Mitose 1st.


_Don Flatt


----------



## bakxierboxer

Kosho Gakkusei said:


> Not quite.
> 
> Kosho has it's own set basics and drills.  Bruce Juchnik has added some Kyokoshin Kai Kata for historical reasons as Thomas Young was authorized to use them in the Official Self Defense Club....



I'm not sure when Thomas Young passed on....
In any case, "historical" in the sense that Kyokushinkai was founded in 1964? 
Jeepers! that makes me feel "dated".......

In any case, Bruce Juchnik was very definitely "around" "back then", and my Kajukenbo SiFu John Leoning often spoke highly of him.

Pete


----------



## Danjo

Kosho Gakkusei said:


> Yes. It's little known but I'm told that Trias is the one who actually encouraged Mitose to teach. According to Young Trias knew Mitose 1st.
> 
> 
> _Don Flatt


 
Where does this info come from? This would mean that Trias was in touch with Mitose prior to 1942 and encouraged him to teach? I thought Trias was over seas in 1942. When did Trias open his school? I think it was 1946 in Arizona. So when did he encourage Mitose to start teaching?


----------



## John Bishop

According to Trias, his first introduction to martial arts was in 1942 while stationed in the British Solomon Islands.  From there he went to Singapore in 1944.  In 1945 he returned to the U.S. and started his school in 1946, in Phoenix Az.  
The length and time of his association with Mitose is contraversial at best.  One thing that the Trias group and Mitose group can't agree on is the so-called Kosho Ryu crest.  This crest appears in later editions of Mitose's book, as well as Trias's book, "The Hand is my Sword".  We all know Mitose claims it to be his family's Kosho Ryu crest.  Trias claims it to be the crest of Choki Motobu.   So, who's crest is it?
Then we have the style names.  Mitose first taught his system as "Kenpo Jiu jutsu".  Trias first taught his as "Shorei Ryu" karate.  Mitose's style name then became "Kosho Shorei Ryu" kenpo.  And Trias's system became "Shuri Ryu"  karate.    
Yes, it is confusing.


----------



## Kosho-Monk

In over a decade of practicing Kosho Shorei Ryu I have come to understand Kosho as having nothing to do with kata or technique.  Instead, for me, it has everything to do with understanding the natural laws that govern man's existence.

I can understand how one might view my statement and not get what I am saying.  Kosho is one of those studies that is best felt instead of discussed.  I believe it is nearly impossible to describe Kosho in words.  Words tend to be confusing and can easily mislead a person into thinking the wrong thing.

As far as the historical aspects of the art I can honestly say that I am not 100% sure of all the details.  For me that's not so important.  I put my focus on the studies of Natural Law and let the historians fight about what happened when.

Do I practice kata?  Yep.  Techniques? Yep.  But only as a means to get to the real knowledge I am after.  What is that knowledge you might ask?  Come to my dojo or attend a seminar with a competent Kosho practitioner and you will be able to feel it.

In the end you may or may not be impressed.  That's ok.  I am on my path and you are on yours.  Both are great and both are probably lacking something.

I think it's also important to state that Kosho, as I understand it, has more than just martial studies within the practice.  Healing arts, meditation, yoga and energy collection are just some of the other non-martial studies.  I remind my students to smile many times during class in order to help cultivate a loving-kindness atittude towards themselves and others.

Well, I guess that's enough for tonight.  If my words were helpful then I wish to give my teachers the credit for passing along their insights.  If I wasn't helpful at all then I'll take the blame.

Warm regards,
John Evans


"When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change."  -Dr. Wayne Dyer


----------



## Kosho Gakkusei

Kosho-Monk said:


> In over a decade of practicing Kosho Shorei Ryu I have come to understand Kosho as having nothing to do with kata or technique. Instead, for me, it has everything to do with understanding the natural laws that govern man's existence.
> 
> ...
> 
> Do I practice kata? Yep. Techniques? Yep. But only as a means to get to the real knowledge I am after. What is that knowledge you might ask? Come to my dojo or attend a seminar with a competent Kosho practitioner and you will be able to feel it.


 
Excellent post John.  I was trying to convey that Kata is a mere training tool we utilize in Kosho.  What's more important is taking the principles and techniques and applying them to the Kata.

Mitose was not known for Kata.

Like I said in my last post I think before Hawaii the self defense portion of the art was trained thru Keiho (Drills) both with a partner and with out.  As a student of the art I think I may have an idea what those may have been like but I think the idea has always been to to learn the natural law that you mentioned.  It seems that's not what many of Mitose's early students got out of it.  From the look of things many took the Keiho and turned them into catalogs of Self Defense Techniques.

Hanshi Juchnik has chosen a different approach and that is his perrogative as Root Master.  So rather than telling the student exactly what to do, he gives governing principles, basic technique, and forms to the student then says slow it down, play with it, and discover.  Learning from a Self Defense Technique basis is definitely easier when you're starting out because you're being told exactly what to do but the problem arises when asked to react spontaneously.  You spend you're beginner and intermediate stages trying to memorize and master the movements of the techniques and the intemediate and advanced stages trying to break out of them.

I've done both approaches.  The Kosho approach that Hanshi Juchnik uses is what's best for me.

_Don Flatt


----------



## Danjo

Kosho Gakkusei said:


> Excellent post John. I was trying to convey that Kata is a mere training tool we utilize in Kosho. What's more important is taking the principles and techniques and applying them to the Kata.
> 
> Mitose was not known for Kata.
> 
> Like I said in my last post I think before Hawaii the self defense portion of the art was trained thru Keiho (Drills) both with a partner and with out. As a student of the art I think I may have an idea what those may have been like but I think the idea has always been to to learn the natural law that you mentioned. It seems that's not what many of Mitose's early students got out of it. From the look of things many took the Keiho and turned them into catalogs of Self Defense Techniques.
> 
> Hanshi Juchnik has chosen a different approach and that is his perrogative as Root Master. So rather than telling the student exactly what to do, he gives governing principles, basic technique, and forms to the student then says slow it down, play with it, and discover. Learning from a Self Defense Technique basis is definitely easier when you're starting out because you're being told exactly what to do but the problem arises when asked to react spontaneously. You spend you're beginner and intermediate stages trying to memorize and master the movements of the techniques and the intemediate and advanced stages trying to break out of them.
> 
> I've done both approaches. The Kosho approach that Hanshi Juchnik uses is what's best for me.
> 
> _Don Flatt


 
Okay, so now we're back to saying that Kosho Ryu is nothing more than a concept that was passed down through 21 grand masters? 

What is meant by "Natural Laws"? While words might mislead, they are, unfortunately, all we have to use on the internet so give it a shot.

*"Root Master"*? Are you sure that Juchnik wants to be known by that title?


----------



## Danjo

I'm still wondering about how Trias encouraged Mitose to start teaching when Mitose opened his school in 1942 in Hawaii and Trias didn't return to the USA until 1945 in Arizona.


----------



## Kosho Gakkusei

Danjo said:


> Okay, so now we're back to saying that Kosho Ryu is nothing more than a concept that was passed down through 21 grand masters?


 
It is both concept and application.  It's concepts can be applied to anything.  During the 1st 20 generations the concepts would have been taught and students would have applied them to that which was available in Japan - which would be Japanese methods of combat both armed and unarmed.  What I said in my last post was that previous to Hawaii - Okinawan type Katas were not used.  These Kata were introduced in Hawaii, the majority not by Mitose.  If you read Mitose's 1st book you will see he talks of Keiho which translates into practice.  Mitose talks of Keiho both with and without a partner.  It is my beleif that the early students took much of the Keiho Mitose was showing and began cataloging them as Self-Defense Techniques.



			
				Danjo said:
			
		

> What is meant by "Natural Laws"? While words might mislead, they are, unfortunately, all we have to use on the internet so give it a shot.


 
*"Natural Laws" - *As in principles to explain that which occurs naturally. In fighting it would be concepts of what makes a movement work or not work.  You are correct that words mislead.  If you are really curious I suggest you visit a Kosho school, a seminar by Hanshi Juchnik or a Kosho senior, or at least purchase some of Hanshi's DVDs.  I recommend you get "Introduction to Kosho".



			
				Danjo said:
			
		

> *"Root Master"*? Are you sure that Juchnik wants to be known by that title?


 
Root Master is the translation of the title Hanshi.  It is what Juchnik prefers, he does not wish to be called Grand Master although he easily could.



			
				Danjo said:
			
		

> I'm still wondering about how Trias encouraged Mitose to start teaching when Mitose opened his school in 1942 in Hawaii and Trias didn't return to the USA until 1945 in Arizona.


 
I'm not sure of all the happenings and the timeline but this is what I've heard Juchnik relate several times he had been told by Trias and Young. Mitose is an enigma to say the least and he was definitely no saint.

_Don Flatt


----------



## Danjo

Kosho Gakkusei said:


> It is both concept and application. It's concepts can be applied to anything. During the 1st 20 generations the concepts would have been taught and students would have applied them to that which was available in Japan - which would be Japanese methods of combat both armed and unarmed. What I said in my last post was that previous to Hawaii - Okinawan type Katas were not used. These Kata were introduced in Hawaii, the majority not by Mitose. If you read Mitose's 1st book you will see he talks of Keiho which translates into practice. Mitose talks of Keiho both with and without a partner. It is my beleif that the early students took much of the Keiho Mitose was showing and began cataloging them as Self-Defense Techniques.


 
The problem is that the word _Kenpo_ is the same as "Chuan Fa" in Chinese and is the word for _Chinese Boxing_. It's not a concept divorced from set techniques. In whatever form Mitose taught, he claimed that what he taught was Kenpo. To say that it's "Kenpo without techniques" seems like logical nonsense. It's like saying that it's an ancient dance without any steps.



Kosho Gakkusei said:


> *"Natural Laws" - *As in principles to explain that which occurs naturally. In fighting it would be concepts of what makes a movement work or not work. You are correct that words mislead. If you are really curious I suggest you visit a Kosho school, a seminar by Hanshi Juchnik or a Kosho senior, or at least purchase some of Hanshi's DVDs. I recommend you get "Introduction to Kosho".


 
I have some of Juchnik's tapes from way back. They weren't especially enlightening. Here's another question: If these things can't be conveyed via words, how does Juchnik justify people learning via his video program? If it has to be felt to be understood, wouldn't this contradict this?




Kosho Gakkusei said:


> Root Master is the translation of the title Hanshi. It is what Juchnik prefers, he does not wish to be called Grand Master although he easily could.


 




Kosho Gakkusei said:


> I'm not sure of all the happenings and the timeline but this is what I've heard Juchnik relate several times he had been told by Trias and Young. Mitose is an enigma to say the least and he was definitely no saint.
> 
> _Don Flatt


 
The timeline is out there. Mitose started teaching in 1942 and Trias didn't get back to the states until 1945. There is no way that he could have been the one that encouraged Mitose to teach, so whoever said that was in error.


----------



## kosho

*Danjo*

The katas i listed are the ones I have learned in Shaolin kempo karate. The list of katas That Donn listed are some of the kosho Katas
That I have and are learning. 

I still teach Shaolin kempo karate in my Dojo, But I also teach Kosho Ryu kempo. I enjoy both Systems of the martial arts.

Kosho Ryu kempo for me is a harder Path. there is more to learn and look beyond.

Kosho literally means old pine tree. Shorei means school of encouragement. A traditional Ryu is a school of thought pertaining to an art form. A Japanese Buddhist priest meditated under an old pine tree around 1235 AD and received enlightenment, as he discovered universal laws and natural principles pertaining to our existence and the resolution of conflict. 
The Shaolin Kempo Training Center encourages students to move toward this same enlightenment through studying natural law.

Kempo means Fist Law. This is the Kosho Shorei Ryu form of martial arts. The predecessors of Kempo are Chaun Fa, in China, and before that Vajra Mukrti in India. Kempo's philosophy is to study and understand man's relationship with nature. Kempo is the study of natural law pertaining to mankind. Kempo does not just deal with the physical arts; it also deals with the spiritual side of oneself, and one's ability to better understand yourself and those around you. Kosho is a way of life and an understanding of the process of life. Learning to enjoy the process and the journey of what we are doing is a much forgotten idea in an age when most people are rushing from point to point. Kosho philosophy teaches the student that the most important part of accomplishing a goal is to enjoy and learn from the process we go through to get there.

The controlling arts are used to manipulate and control an opponent without causing them harm, as well as in ways which will damage an attacker. These arts involve the use of the folding arts such as throws, joint locks, holds and pins. They also include non-fatal strikes to the limbs of the attacker to numb and temporarily negating the use of these limbs to strike the defender. The controlling arts would be the main arts used in the context of law enforcement. These arts are used to prevent the opponent from gaining the body posturing and body alignments necessary to effectively continue to attack, and/or subdue him without inflicting permanent injury. 

The striking arts are used to control an opponent, or in situation where controlling or escape is not an option, cause destruction to an opponent. In Kosho Ryu, the strikes are broken into two groups, Onna No Atemi (Female Strikes) and Otoko No Atemi (Male Strikes). Onna No Atemi strikes are soft, quick strikes that take place when the attacker is in transition and rotating to hit the defender, thus enabling the defender to have maximum impact and damage on the attacker with a soft, quick strike. The Otoko No Atemi strikes involve the connection of the upper and lower body spheres of rotation, using proper triangulation of movements, muscle groups, and meridians to engage maximum energy in the destructive striking force to a stationed or rotating opponent.

The escaping arts represent the highest form of physical martial art. The escaping arts are practiced in order to teach a student to avoid physical conflict of any type. By understanding natural principles pertaining to eye training, hearing, sensitivity to movement and other things involved in mastering the senses, a student can totally escape from harm, never being touched by a would-be assailant. The cornerstone of the escaping arts is awareness. To teach this, the angles of the octagon are used to familiarize the student with their options of escape. The escaping arts also are the foundation of a student's striking and throwing arts, allowing the student to maneuver to a position where the attacker's follow-up attacks are awkward and difficult, making the defender's striking and throwing techniques more effective and powerful.

A student of Kosho Ryu will be exposed to many different forms of weaponry. The student will study the use of the Jo (4 foot staff), Bo (6 foot staff), Katana (Japanese Sword), as well other weapons of Japan and Okinawa. The student of Kosho Ryu learns that the weapon is an extension of their spirit and is connected to the innermost part of them.


Cultural arts such as Shodo (Brush Calligraphy), the study of Japanese terminology, and the study of history, gives the Kosho Ryu student an understanding of the

Japanese culture from which our art comes from. Shodo is done by the student as a form of meditation as well as for studying the characters of the Japanese language. Shodo is also done by the student as a way of learning to use the center in martial and daily life applications. 

Shiatsu (Pressure Point Massage) is taught to the adult student to give them a better understanding of the human body and the energy flow which keeps us healthy. Students learn the meridians of the body and how to massage and correct energy blockages to alleviate symptoms such as headaches, neck and back problems, joint and muscle problems, as well as many other common ailments.

Ok  and again there are many other things that come into play in Kosho Ryu kempo...  But my hands type no more for now... ALL please enjoy your summer...

kosho


----------



## Kosho Gakkusei

Danjo said:


> The problem is that the word _Kenpo_ is the same as "Chuan Fa" in Chinese and is the word for _Chinese Boxing_. It's not a concept divorced from set techniques. In whatever form Mitose taught, he claimed that what he taught was Kenpo. To say that it's "Kenpo without techniques" seems like logical nonsense. It's like saying that it's an ancient dance without any steps.


 
Who said Kosho was concept divorced from technique?  I can see from your profile that you study Kajukenbo.  Did you read this post by Flying Crane?



Flying Crane said:


> Sounds like Kosho Ryu is designed *more like the traditional Chinese and Okinawan systems, which use few, if any, pre-choreographed self defense techniques. *Instead, the material beyond the basics is learned in the forms and kata, and extrapolated from that source.
> 
> I think perhaps a lot of kenpo people who have no experience with other systems don't realize that the Parker derived kenpo methods are somewhat unique in having a curriculum centered around Self-Defense techniques. This kind of thing is actually a rarity among other systems. Most others just don't use them, and it sounds like Kosho Ryu is more like these others.


 
The aproach Kajukenbo and Kenpo derived from Chow are unlike those of traditional Chuanfa and Kempo systems.  So your comment about logical non-sense seems to be more of an attack.  If your purpose is to argue, nitpick, or discredit I have no reason to try to talk to you because you have no interest in learning anything.  If you have a genuine interest to understand or learn about another art we can talk because that's why I'm here to learn and discuss.



			
				Danjo said:
			
		

> I have some of Juchnik's tapes from way back. They weren't especially enlightening.


 
Obviously, since you still have no idea what Kosho is about.  You're entitled to that opinion, obviously not shared by a number of people.  Perhaps, you approached those videos much like your approaching this discussion.  You'll never learn from anything as long as you approach it with arms closed and a scowl on your face.  Also, some of the tapes can be hard to understand from the outside as he's explaining one principle but still using hundreds.  It would be better to attend a seminar but only with an attitude to learn something - if you just want to criticize don't bother.



			
				Danjo said:
			
		

> Here's another question: If these things can't be conveyed via words, how does Juchnik justify people learning via his video program? If it has to be felt to be understood, wouldn't this contradict this?


 
What video learning program do you speak of?  I'm unaware of any such thing.  Hanshi's videos are intended as a supplement, no one is given rank based on video learning.



			
				Danjo said:
			
		

> The timeline is out there. Mitose started teaching in 1942 and Trias didn't get back to the states until 1945. There is no way that he could have been the one that encouraged Mitose to teach, so whoever said that was in error.


 
I don't have the answers but you seem pretty convinced that it could not have happened prior to Trias being shipped out or while Trias was in port in Hawaii as he was in the Navy.  Not that they would use Hawaii for any Naval operations.

_Don Flatt


----------



## Danjo

Kosho Gakkusei said:


> Who said Kosho was concept divorced from technique? I can see from your profile that you study Kajukenbo. Did you read this post by Flying Crane?


 
When I hear that Kosho had it's expression in pre-Okinawan Japanese MAs, I have to assume you mean Kendo and Jujutsu. In which case, you're saying that it's not a system, but rather a concept.



Kosho Gakkusei said:


> The aproach Kajukenbo and Kenpo derived from Chow are unlike those of traditional Chuanfa and Kempo systems. So your comment about logical non-sense seems to be more of an attack. If your purpose is to argue, nitpick, or discredit I have no reason to try to talk to you because you have no interest in learning anything. If you have a genuine interest to understand or learn about another art we can talk because that's why I'm here to learn and discuss.


 
I think I have a pretty good grasp on what Mitose taught to Young and Chow etc. I also have more than a passing familiarity with Chuan Fa systems. They do indeed have more than mere basics. Some of their forms are the longest and most elaborate in the world.




Kosho Gakkusei said:


> Obviously, since you still have no idea what Kosho is about. You're entitled to that opinion, obviously not shared by a number of people. Perhaps, you approached those videos much like your approaching this discussion. You'll never learn from anything as long as you approach it with arms closed and a scowl on your face. Also, some of the tapes can be hard to understand from the outside as he's explaining one principle but still using hundreds. It would be better to attend a seminar but only with an attitude to learn something - if you just want to criticize don't bother.


 
I'm actually trying to nail some things down here without it going in the same circular direction that Kosho threads tend to go in. There's no hostility, but rather a questioning of what's being said. If a person wants to learn, they question things. If they want to be indoctrinated, then they just shut up and listen.



Kosho Gakkusei said:


> What video learning program do you speak of? I'm unaware of any such thing. Hanshi's videos are intended as a supplement, no one is given rank based on video learning.


 
I don't think I mentioned rank. The program I'm referring to is this one: http://www.koshoelessons.com/overview.html

This sort of flies in the face of the idea that this all has to be felt to be learned no?



Kosho Gakkusei said:


> I don't have the answers but you seem pretty convinced that it could not have happened prior to Trias being shipped out or while Trias was in port in Hawaii as he was in the Navy. Not that they would use Hawaii for any Naval operations.
> 
> _Don Flatt


 
I can't change time and space. The Pre-War Trias was not a martial artist, so why whould he be talking to Mitose about teaching the martial arts? Where is your evidence that he met with Mitose in Hawaii?


----------



## Danjo

kosho said:


> *Danjo*
> 
> Kempo means Fist Law. This is the Kosho Shorei Ryu form of martial arts. The predecessors of Kempo are Chaun Fa, in China, and before that Vajra Mukrti in India. Kempo's philosophy is to study and understand man's relationship with nature. Kempo is the study of natural law pertaining to mankind. Kempo does not just deal with the physical arts; it also deals with the spiritual side of oneself, and one's ability to better understand yourself and those around you.


 
Well, you can go back further and say that the Indian arts were imported from Greece via Alexander the Great bringing Pancrase with him. Kempo/Kenpo _does_ mean "Fist Law" not "Natural Law" or Philosophy. When I used the term Chinese Boxing, I was using a fairly common name for the same thing. Your going beyond that into philosophy is not the universal case.

I do appreciate the rest of your post's attempt to answer my question.


----------



## kosho

*I do appreciate the rest of your post's attempt to answer my question.*
*Danjo*

Danjo Thanks no issues... I was hoping some would help a little. 
look forward to seeing and meeting you some day.

 kosho


----------



## Kosho-Monk

You cannot learn from a video - true learning only takes place via experience.  You can gain ideas via video but you must take those ideas into your practice and experience for yourself in order to gain knowledge (i.e. learn).

I'm not sure exactly when Trias and Mitose met - but I have heard that Trias talked Mitose into teaching.  I wonder if Trias actually talked Mitose into teaching again - post Official Self Defense Club, after Mitose moved to California.  Just a thought.

From what I understand Mitose only taught the war arts of Kosho to his students in Hawaii.  As all Kosho students today know, that is just one part of Kosho.  Kempo is the martial arts aspect of Kosho.  Kosho in a whole is much more.  And Kosho Shorei Ryu is the highest philosophy of Kosho - as I understand it - basically meaning to cause harm to no one.

Of course that being said you still see many Kosho practitioners focusing mainly on the war arts.  But I would encourage all Kosho students to practice yoga, meditation, shodo and some of the other non-martial studies.  This will help to balance them out.

Here is the list of the 8 main studies of Kosho:

Energy Collection
Healing Arts
Japanese Yoga
Escaping Arts
Philosophy
Folding Arts
Meditation
War Arts

Please go to www.skski.net for more information.


DANJO,

Is there a specific question you have that has not been answered to your satisfaction?  If so I will do my best to answer it.


Warm regards,
John Evans


----------



## sksk

When kosho practitioners talk about "natural Laws" what they are describing is physics, bio-mechanics, physiology, and anatomy, environmental considerations. It really is not hocus-pocus, its grounded.

best regards

George


----------



## Flying Crane

sksk said:


> When kosho practitioners talk about "natural Laws" what they are describing is physics, bio-mechanics, physiology, and anatomy, environmental considerations. It really is not hocus-pocus, its grounded.
> 
> best regards
> 
> George


 

I suspect these are the same things that EPAK people discuss in their own versions of kenpo.


----------



## sksk

Sure, not having studied epak i can only surmise, but i have found "natural Laws in every art i have studied. i don't think anyone has a monopoly on the truth.

best regards

George


----------



## Flying Crane

sksk said:


> Sure, not having studied epak i can only surmise, but i have found "natural Laws in every art i have studied. i don't think anyone has a monopoly on the truth.
> 
> best regards
> 
> George


 

I haven't studied EPAK versions either.  But just poke around in the threads here, and you will see all kinds of references to physiology and anatomy and proprioceptors and scientific anatomical truths and whatnot.

I think some people THINK they have the monopoly on truth.  They sometimes have a hard time recognizing and accepting that they do not, even tho that same truth is known by a different name, and when it is connected to a controversial personality.


----------



## Danjo

sksk said:


> Sure, not having studied epak i can only surmise, but i have found "natural Laws in every art i have studied. i don't think anyone has a monopoly on the truth.
> 
> best regards
> 
> George


 
Okay. If it's physics etc that are meant, then no problem. I'm not sure why it was mentioned as something special since everything works according to Natural Law etc. When he said it like this "*the natural laws that govern man's existence" *I thought he was meaning some special Kosho thing and that the rest of us were following "un-natural laws" by their definition.

Probably be helpful if someone could describe what a belt test looked like in Kosho Shorei Ryu. Perhaps that could help cut through the morass of misunderstanding as to the definition of technique etc. WHat does a typical Yellow belt, green belt and black belt test look like? Give us a description por favor.


----------



## Flying Crane

Danjo said:


> Probably be helpful if someone could describe what a belt test looked like in Kosho Shorei Ryu. Perhaps that could help cut through the morass of misunderstanding as to the definition of technique etc. WHat does a typical Yellow belt, green belt and black belt test look like? Give us a description por favor.


 

There's an interesting idea.


----------



## Kosho-Monk

I get the feeling that some of you want an easy answer that describes Kosho.  Well, I don't think that's going to happen.

Kosho isn't one of those martial arts that can be summed up in a couple sentences.

If you are looking for an art that extends beyond the martial applications, then Kosho is a great study.  If you're just looking to punch and kick your way out of situations, then probably any martial system will do.

I view Kosho as a study of Natural Law that goes beyond the physical aspects of self defense.  For me Kosho is a life-study that helps me deal with conflicts ranging from the physical to the non-physical.

And because Kosho is such a vast practice, our physical self defense looks and feels different from anything I've studied before.

Yes, you can see similar ideas from other arts, but I really think that Kosho practitioners view and think about self defense much differently than other martial artists.  At least that has been my experience when meeting and working out with other practitioners.

But again - you have to actually go to a class with a good Kosho teacher to really feel what I'm talking about.


Warm regards,
John


----------



## Danjo

Kosho-Monk said:


> I get the feeling that some of you want an easy answer that describes Kosho. Well, I don't think that's going to happen.
> 
> Kosho isn't one of those martial arts that can be summed up in a couple sentences.
> 
> If you are looking for an art that extends beyond the martial applications, then Kosho is a great study. If you're just looking to punch and kick your way out of situations, then probably any martial system will do.
> 
> I view Kosho as a study of Natural Law that goes beyond the physical aspects of self defense. For me Kosho is a life-study that helps me deal with conflicts ranging from the physical to the non-physical.
> 
> And because Kosho is such a vast practice, our physical self defense looks and feels different from anything I've studied before.
> 
> Yes, you can see similar ideas from other arts, but I really think that Kosho practitioners view and think about self defense much differently than other martial artists. At least that has been my experience when meeting and working out with other practitioners.
> 
> But again - you have to actually go to a class with a good Kosho teacher to really feel what I'm talking about.
> 
> 
> Warm regards,
> John


 
Well, I see from your webpage that you do have belt tests and that you post requirements for them. How about doing that here?

I also noticed that your a 5th degree in SKK. How does you current curriculum/requirements differ from SKK?


----------



## sksk

Danjo, i have to teach a class now but either later tonight or tomorrow I'll give a description of what i require a white to yellow adult should have for testing.

hope i can help 

George


----------



## Danjo

sksk said:


> Danjo, i have to teach a class now but either later tonight or tomorrow I'll give a description of what i require a white to yellow adult should have for testing.
> 
> hope i can help
> 
> George


 
Thanks.


----------



## kosho

Danjo Here is a Green belt test That I run and just held about 6 weeks ago. This is the written part Then there is a 5 Hr physical test that follows it. 

Green Belt 
Test
Name.________________________ Date: _________


List all your hand strikes from the top of the head down
1._________________________ 2.__________________________
3._________________________ 4.__________________________
5._________________________ 6.__________________________
7._________________________ 8.__________________________
9._________________________ 10._________________________
11.________________________ 12._________________________
13.________________________ 14._________________________
15.________________________ 16._________________________
17.________________________ 18._________________________
19.________________________ 20._________________________
21.________________________ 22._________________________
23.________________________ 24._________________________
25.________________________ 26._________________________
27.________________________ 28._________________________
29.________________________ 30._________________________
31.________________________ 32._________________________
33.________________________ 34._________________________

This all of your kicks and what kind of kick it is.
1.________________________________________
2.________________________________________
3.________________________________________
4.________________________________________
5.________________________________________
6.________________________________________
7.________________________________________
8.________________________________________
9.________________________________________
10._______________________________________
11._______________________________________
12._______________________________________
13._______________________________________
14._______________________________________
15._______________________________________
16._______________________________________
17._______________________________________
18._______________________________________

Why do we practice the 1-1 8-8 blocking drill.
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________





List all five animals and what they teach us beyond the basic level.
1.____________________________________________________________________________
2.____________________________________________________________________________
3.____________________________________________________________________________
4.____________________________________________________________________________
5.____________________________________________________________________________



List all of your stances and the pros and cons behind them.

1.__________________________________________________________________________
2.__________________________________________________________________________
3.__________________________________________________________________________
4.__________________________________________________________________________
5.__________________________________________________________________________
6.__________________________________________________________________________
7.__________________________________________________________________________
8.__________________________________________________________________________
9.__________________________________________________________________________
10._________________________________________________________________________


Write out the kempo 

#1._______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

#2._______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

# 3_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

#4.______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

#5._______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________________

#6.______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

#7.________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

#8.________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


#9._____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

#10.__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

#11.______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

#12._____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


#13._______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

#14.____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
#15._____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

#16._____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

#17._____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

#18._____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


#19._____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

# 20. __________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Combinations Write out

#3beg_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

#6._________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


#7.________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________






#4.________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

#5______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

#18.____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


#3 Adv.__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

#2________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________



Dot Man:
Basic
List where 12 Dots are on the body

1.___________________________ 2.____________________________9._________________
3.___________________________ 4.____________________________10.________________
5.___________________________ 6.____________________________11.________________
7.___________________________ 8.____________________________12.________________

What in Kosho is the hands together mean? __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

What in Kosho with hands crossing and thumbs crossing is the meaning.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

What in Kosho with the hands left covering right mean?
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

What is Freezing in Kempo. __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________




What is the folding arts of Kempo
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________







From a right punch list the strong and weak dots.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Ground fighting

What is ground fighting?___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Name a combination that has Folding arts in it. ______



What is Kosho _________________________________________________________________

What is Kempo._________________________________________________________________

What is shuto ________________ what is Dojo __________________________

Who is James Mitose ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

What does shaolin mean _______________________________________________________




Self defense Write out the steps for the all.

Paper given.



Forms 

Write out 4.


What does 1 pinion teach name 3 things

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

What animal are you and why? __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

What have you learned from the teachings here at the Shaolin Kempo Training center.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________






Why should you be a Green Belt under Sensei Stephen E. Bonk and Master John Evans

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Score _____________________ Pass Fail 


Instructor Sensei Stephen E. Bonk
.


----------



## Benjp

First off, rank advancement in kosho involves more than just understanding the principles of kosho.  It also involves knowledge of kata, bunkai, history, and more.  Don't think that rank advancement requirements somehow affect what the principles of kosho are..

Testing of the principles of kosho happens during what is called randoori.  Randoori involves a single uke (or more depending on the skill level of the student being tested) and a tori.  The uke attacks the tori.

White belt students must be able to use their "escaping technique" to avoid getting hit.  More advanced students must use their skills learned in the form of waza to generate an on-the-fly defense technique that effectively stops the encounter.

Note: kosho "on-the-fly techniques" do *not[* require the attacker to perform a specific attack.  The uke chooses from grab, kick, punch, etc.  The tori must successfully avoid getting hit.  The uke *will*, however, set the pace and the distance which the attack occurs according to their ability level.  The better the tori, the more polished and refined the on-the-fly technique will be.  

Typically, a kyu-ranked (non-black belt) student will work hard to win the confrontation.  An advanced student will make the confrontation look easy.  A kosho master will look foolish and clumsy (to an observer, the uke will be confused and either very hurt or worried about being hurt). 

We work these kinds of randoori exercises all the time with different basics.  For example, in certain scenarios we must tuck our hands into our obis (belt) and use only our legs to escape and manipulate (geri waza/ashi sabaki).

In other exercises, we must end the confrontation with a throw (nage waza).

Many of the "seniors" in our system have migrated from other arts.  I think that kosho ryu would be well suited for someone who had first learned a technique based curriculum.

Hope this helps,

Ben


----------



## BlackCatBonz

Danjo, here is a little quote from Yukiyoshi Takamura of Shindo Yoshin Ryu;



> How did you come to reorganize the traditional curriculum of Shindo Yoshin-ryu?
> 
> That is a very complex question. Let me see if I can explain it clearly. Any martial art is really a set of concepts and ideas. Physical techniques are important but not the defining elements of a style. I have heard some people say that this is not true, that they have secret techniques. So what! I bet another style has techniques that are similar to their secret techniques. I would guess that what they actually have is more correctly described as secret concepts. All jujutsu traditions do similar joint locks because the joints in all human beings operate in the same way. There really are no new joint locks. Its how they perform the locks that differentiate the styles. The concepts used in the application of the locks are what are important. These aspects are what make one tradition different from another. They are often the okuden.
> When I came to America I discovered that many traditional techniques were simply not applicable to the realities facing my new students. Jujutsu techniques in their original form were not intended to address these modern situations. When I first started teaching, students began to ask me how I would deal with a boxer, or with a karateka and so on. At first I was surprised because I was not sure that I had the answers. I had to carefully examine this. I realized that the answers were right in front of me. I was busy focusing on jujutsu techniques when it was jujutsu concepts that were the solution. Techniques did not matter because they were guided by concepts. New techniques could be devised to address new realities while embracing the time honored concepts that form the arts core. This would not be abandoning the art. This would allow the art to maintain its effectiveness and relevance to a new generation and era.



This in a nutshell describes the study of kosho.....quite simple really.
All of the other stuff is icing that we get to add to our cake.
Some folks tend to not look at kata like something special......but it really does bring something.

Traditional arts do not always traditionally teach the art from a catalogue of techniques......you may learn a few to develop a feel for a concept or principle that is directly applicable to all techniques.
Unless you understand that......a student wouldn't traditionaly move on to the okuden study of an art because they don't _get_ it.

I know you're tenacious in your attempts at getting guys to go over and over the details of this art, and I'm sure you've read every reply closely and take great pride in watching people try to explain time and again until they've typed their fingers raw hoping you'll get it eventually.

Here is me saying, give it up guys........he doesn't care.


----------



## Kosho Gakkusei

Excellent quote Black Cat.

I have given up.  I tried in previous posts to explain the same things over and over again.  I wouldn't have tried so long but I thought the problem was my inability to explain well enough and the diffuculty of putting something like Kosho into words.  But these posts...



			
				Danjo said:
			
		

> I'm still wondering about how Trias encouraged Mitose to start teaching when Mitose opened his school in 1942 in Hawaii and Trias didn't return to the USA until 1945 in Arizona.


 


			
				Kosho Gakkusei said:
			
		

> I'm not sure of all the happenings and the timeline but this is what I've heard Juchnik relate several times he had been told by Trias and Young. Mitose is an enigma to say the least and he was definitely no saint.


 


			
				Danjo said:
			
		

> The timeline is out there. Mitose started teaching in 1942 and Trias didn't get back to the states until 1945. There is no way that he could have been the one that encouraged Mitose to teach, so whoever said that was in error.


 


			
				Kosho Gakkusei said:
			
		

> I don't have the answers but you seem pretty convinced that it could not have happened prior to Trias being shipped out or while Trias was in port in Hawaii as he was in the Navy. Not that they would use Hawaii for any Naval operations.


 


			
				Danjo said:
			
		

> I can't change time and space. The Pre-War Trias was not a martial artist, so why whould he be talking to Mitose about teaching the martial arts? Where is your evidence that he met with Mitose in Hawaii?


 
Those posts make me believe that Danjo is only seeking to discredit Kosho and not really to learn about it.  The logic of his argument seems flawed.  

Just because Trias was not yet a martial artist does not mean he had no interest in martial arts or interest in talking to Mitose.  In fact, since we know Trias had later become a martial artist how much more would he have been motivated to talk to Mitose especially if he had somehow learned Mitose was a Martia Arts Master.

In response to Danjo's request for evidence - I ask that he supply evidence that Mitose never met Trias in Hawaii.  My evidence is two-fold; the occaison of meeting existed as Trias was even likely to be in Hawaii within the timeline due to his service in the Navy during WWII.  Additionally; I have heard the testimony of Bruce Juchnik on more than one occaison- that it was in fact Trias who had encouraged Mitose to teach and he had head from Thomas Young that Trias knew Mitose before anyone else had.

_Don Flatt


----------



## Kosho-Monk

> Well, I see from your webpage that you do have belt tests and that you post requirements for them. How about doing that here?
> 
> I also noticed that your a 5th degree in SKK. How does you current curriculum/requirements differ from SKK?


 

Danjo,

I think it would be best for you to become a student of mine.  Then I could really teach you about Kosho as taught at my school.

Seriously though...

At this point I have to agree with BlackCatBonz in thinking that you don't really care to know what Kosho is about.  Many of us have typed in lots of explainations and you are still not getting it.  Kosho has nothing to do with a curriculum.

Visit a Kosho school near where you live and get a first hand experience of what Kosho is.


Take care,
John


----------



## Kosho Gakkusei

"When you seek wisdom, look for similarities and ignore the nit-pickers.  It is not wisdom they seek, rather they seek to attract attention, away from wisdom and to themselves, by creating artificial arguments and disharmony.  Most differences are in phraseology."
 - James M. Mitose "What is True Self Defense?" page 24.


----------



## sksk

Here is how i test and what i require but others will do it differently.

Hachikyu Yellow belt

Dachi: they will be tested on the proper structure, alignment and posture of all the basic stance(horse, back, front, cat, one-point, crossed stances)

Uke: they will be tested on there basic blocks and emphasis will be on proper alignments and posture, for power and speed (rising, lower parry, middle knifehand, reverse middle block)

Atemi: We will test them on proper alignments, specifically on use of whole body motion. Reverse punch, lunge punch, knife hand strike, back fist, one knuckle punch. also there is a particular way the hand is formed in the seiken or so we make sure they understand that.

Geri: we test them on balance power, speed, and posture. (front, back, roundhouse, side, crescent)

Katas: juni-ippo Shodan,nidan, sandan, i believe you already know the history of this kata. We have the students do the kata in a wide base, we look for proper transfer of power, transitions from stances, and alignments.
students will have to bunkai 2-3 applications from the form

Then they are tested on octagon drills: the first two are the front stance octagon an back stance octagon. on these we are looking to see if the alignment of the stances are correct, that they understand how to root. and the how to coordinate upper and lower portions of the body. students must be able to bunkai 2-3 move from these octagons ( the only reasons i did not go into details on what the octagon drills were, is because i thought there have been other posts on this subject)

there is history and terms they must also know.

 it would take along time to describe all they ways material can be analyzed and worked for example with strikes-bag work, line drills, partner hitting, etc.

But i hope this helps

best regards

George


----------



## Danjo

Wow! You guys are something else! I'm finally getting a dialogue going about Kosho Ryu and you let someone like Shawn Baily derail it?

I'll admit to my none-too-secret scepticism regarding Kosho ryu and Juchnick, but it doesn't mean that I can't change my mind on any of it. When some of you seemed ready to start giving details and not vague philosophies, I thought that we were finally going to get some public understanding of this willow-the-wisp art. Oh well.

When I hear that a system that is claimed to be 22 generations of grandmasters long exists, I think it would be cool if some details were given. I mean think of how long that is. 22 generations, assuming each generation to be an average of 40 years, would make Kosho Ryu nearly 900 years old. If the generations are longer than that, then just do the math. Now, despite the above quoted article from Shawn, I find it odd that Juchnik would so dramatically alter an art that existed for so long. Are we to believe that there was no curriculum for an art that is nearly 900 years old or older? Or, if there is, that it can be so blithely thrown aside in favor of Okinawan kata and some forms made up by Juchnik? What was so outdated (if we're to follow the logic of Shawn's article) that the system needed an entire overhaul? The letter on Juchnik's own website from Mitose said that Juchnik still lacked important parts of the art that couldn't be conveyed to him unless Mitose was free from prison (which we know never happened), so why would Juchnik seek to change it so dramatically?

Some people here say that Kosho can't be taught via video, yet Juchnik offers to do just that for 29 dollars per month. How do you reconcile this apparent contradiction?

You see, I am seeking answers to some real questions. What I receive is hostility when I ask for more than a "Root Master said so" response. Pretty sad IMO.

Oh, and since we're quoting people, I thought I'd quote Doc from a couple of years ago on this same subject. This is in regards to the timeline issue I have been talking about. You now say that I have to prove that Trias didn't meet Mitose?



Doc said:


> "Quote:
> Originally Posted by kelly keltner
> May I remind you this is the same eyewitness who says he saw Bruce Juchnik suck at doing kata in a time frame which is at best improbable from his own description of events, at a place Mr. Juchnik never said he was.
> 
> Yep! That's what he said all right.
> 
> Quote:
> With no one who has come foward to corroborate his story.
> 
> You know I hate to say it but that's just pure dumb. Anybody could come on the net and say, "I was there and Doc's right" if that's all it takes to stop the whining and yapping.
> 
> Quote:
> Todd you and I both know better about any claims about Bruce's ability. Even in the seventies he was known as a good Kenpo man before he met Mitose.
> 
> Can you get someone who was there to come forth and corroborate that?
> 
> Quote:
> So I take what Doc says with a grain of salt. He has a right to his opinion and recollection of events.
> 
> See what I mean? I need corroboration, a vaccination, and a note from my teacher, but ole Bruce's word is gospel. Well he was there, and he did suck that day - I don't mean that in a bad way - maybe he was just having a bad day. As far as the "grain of salt," if you take everything Bruce says as the "truth" just because he says it, you'll need more than salt to make those stories taste good. But you too are entitled to your opinion, even though you weren't there and really don't know whether Bruce was or not. At least I'm not relying on what someone told me. Incense anyone? YSDAB*"



You see?This is what I'm getting at too. I would like more information than simply "The Root Master said it, so it must be fact." I'm open to convincing.


----------



## MJS

Guys,

It should be no surprise to any of us, that anytime history, rank, etc., is discussed, tensions have the potential to get hot.  What may appear to be a clear cut explaination to one, may not be to someone else.  Thats the nature of a forum.  Reading thru these posts, I really don't see anything heated or off topic.  I see people asking questions, which is a good thing.   Lets try to answer questions to the best of our ability.  Many times when things seem to be avoided, it tends to lead to a 'hot pursuit' of the subject, which isn't always a good thing.

Lets keep things civil and have some good discussion.  :ultracool


----------



## Kosho Gakkusei

Alot of misunderstanding seems to center around the whole "No Techniques" issue.  Let me attempt once more to clarify.

Kosho and a pre-arranged technique based system such as EPAK are different solutions to the same problem.  Mathmatecally that would be the difference between: A + B = C and A = C - B.  The components are very much the same.  The difference is in the arrangement or how the solution is organized.

Both EPAK and Kosho attempt to teach how to defend oneself.  

In EPAK the student is taught Basics, Pre-Arranged Self Defense Responses to Various Attacks (Techniques), & Forms.  When starting out the "Techniques" are done with no resistance and no what ifs.  As the student progresses they are taught the principles that make the "Techniques" work.  As their skill and understanding grows the "Techniques" are resisted and they are introduced to variables.  They are taught how to adapt & graft so their "Techniques" can become instinctive, fluid, and spontaneous.

In Kosho the student is also taught Basics and Forms but rather than being given Pre-Arranged Responses "Techniques" the student is taught principles and the teacher demonstrates some of the ways the principles can be applied.  The student will work with a partner on each principle against all possible attacks from every angle and with a number of desired outcomes (escape, throw, lock, strike).  The student will experiment with Kata (Forms), Kumite (Sparring), Shodo (Calligraphy), & Shiatsu (Japanese Massage) to see where they can see parallels and possible applications of the principles.  After much study and practice the Kosho student response will be instictive, fluid, & spontaneous.

My point is that the approach is different but they are very similar in the outcome.  Not that they will look the same because their are differences in Basics and Principles utilized.

Hope this helps.

_Don Flatt


----------



## MJS

Don,

Thank you for the breakdown.   I can't speak for every EPAK teacher out there, but I can speak for what I do.  Anytime I'd teach a new technique, I'd always stress to the student that this is simply a foundation to build off of, not something that is set in stone.  There were times when I'd have a technique line going.  A newer student would be doing their defense.  I would intentionally call out an attack that the student didn't know a defense for.  They'd have that 'deer in the headlights' look about them.  I'd ask them if they knew how to block, punch, kick and move?  They would say yes.  I'd say, well ok then, lets see it!  They didn't do Attacking Mace, Thundering Hammers or any of the other preset punch defenses we have, but they'd do something, and that was my goal...to have them react and not have to think.  So they'd end up doing a block, outward handsword, and front kick and cover out.  Was it a named move?  Nope, but I didn't care, as my goal was to have them react, not stand there.

All that said, I think I was doing exactly what you folks in the Kosho system do from day 1.   Like you said, different approach, same outcome. 

Mike


----------



## Kosho-Monk

Danjo,

I think you said it well enough when you stated that you are skeptical about Kosho.  And honestly I don't really have any desire to change your view points.  Perhaps some other Kosho student will be willing to try and convince you of what and how we do things.

I've made this suggestion before to others - call Bruce Juchnik on the phone and talk with him personally.  Or go and visit him at a seminar.  I don't have a map so I don't know how far Fullerton is from Sacramento, but if you really want to know about Kosho you might want to take a drive.

As far as curriculum goes, Juchnik has stated that Mitose taught him in riddles.  There was no set way of learning things in a particular order.  Perhaps that because Mitose was in prison.  Maybe Terry Lee / Nemir Hassan can help you to know what Mitose taught during regular classes.  I believe that Hanshi Juchnik went to him years ago to get an understanding of what was taught at that time.

As far as the length of time in which Kosho has been around the legend has it starting in 1235AD.  Go to the official SKSK website at www.skski.net and get some more info on that.  If you have questions about what is said you should contact Bruce Juchnik directly.

The website for kosho video lessons is run by a kosho student, not Hanshi Juchnik.  I think it's a great way to expose people to Kosho who might not otherwise be able to get exposed to our art.  You cannot learn from a video but you can take an idea from a video and work it with a partner until you do learn it through personal experience.  Of course any misunderstandings won't be corrected unless you train with a certified Kosho teacher.  And you won't be earning any rank.

One more thing.  I'm not being hostile towards you.  But rather I feel frustrated that you are not understanding what I am saying.  I believe it's because you don't really care to understand - so for me it's a waste of time talking about this to you.

But if you have a (one) specific question you'd like to ask perhaps I can answer it for you.  But please know that if your question has to do with Hanshi Juchnik personally then I will simply encourage you to talk with him personally.  I am not qualified to speak for Bruce Juchnik.

I did notice you wanted to know how the SKK curriculum differs from KRK at my school.  The differences are more in the way things are taught.  For instance, I teach the SKK 1-20 combination self defense techniques at my school.  But I have changed them so they actually work and you don't have to muscle your way through them.  Also in SKK the attacker only punches in once per technique.  In KRK the the attacker may attack as much as they want to.  I change the timing and other aspects of the technique according to what's happening.

In KRK I can take any form and create techniques that most students would never even think of.  This is because in KRK we look at things differently.  We don't always view a punch as a punch.  It might be used for something completely different.

I truly hope this helps.  And I really hope you call Bruce Juchnik on the phone and chat with him.


Take care,
John


----------



## Danjo

Kosho-Monk said:


> Danjo,
> 
> 
> I did notice you wanted to know how the SKK curriculum differs from KRK at my school. The differences are more in the way things are taught. For instance, I teach the SKK 1-20 combination self defense techniques at my school. But I have changed them so they actually work and you don't have to muscle your way through them. Also in SKK the attacker only punches in once per technique. In KRK the the attacker may attack as much as they want to. I change the timing and other aspects of the technique according to what's happening.
> 
> Take care,
> John


 
Okay, I have a familiarity with SKK combos as I have a brown belt in SKK. So how would you tweak the to make the really work for instance? Take #3 or #15 for instance and please help me see how to tweak them to make the work using Kosho principles.


----------



## Kosho Gakkusei

Danjo said:


> Some people here say that Kosho can't be taught via video, yet Juchnik offers to do just that for 29 dollars per month. How do you reconcile this apparent contradiction?


 
My last response to Danjo - What contradiction?  You've been told in a previous post that the videos are a supplement to not replacement for live instruction.



Kosho Gakkusei said:


> What video learning program do you speak of? I'm unaware of any such thing. Hanshi's videos are intended as a supplement, no one is given rank based on video learning.


 
The link you cited:


Danjo said:


> I don't think I mentioned rank. The program I'm referring to is this one: http://www.koshoelessons.com/overview.html
> 
> This sort of flies in the face of the idea that this all has to be felt to be learned no?


Read it, says the same thing.


> *Can I earn a belt just by using Kosho E Lessons?*​*Kosho E Lessons* is not about achieving rank and is certainly not a mail order belt program. The purpose of *Kosho E Lessons* is knowledge...*to supplement your training and to provide you with information you would otherwise not have immediate access to.* As with any reputable school, rank determination is based on proper technical skills and time. Simply viewing and learning the lessons online is not enough to advance in belt rank. Rank advancement takes a great deal of time, effort, and commitment under a qualified instructor.




check it here. http://www.koshoelessons.com/faq.html

My problem with Danjo's questioning is the disregard of answers he's been given.  This has the appearance of manufacturing artificial arguments.

Danjo, from the picture in your profile you look like a cool guy to hang with.  I'd love to get together sometime and have some laughs, spar, or cross train - maybe even buy you a drink.  But it's fruitless for me to have a discussion with someone who will not even acknowledge my responses and keep asking the same question.



			
				Danjo said:
			
		

> Oh, and since we're quoting people, I thought I'd quote Doc from a couple of years ago on this same subject. This is in regards to the timeline issue I have been talking about. You now say that I have to prove that Trias didn't meet Mitose?
> 
> ....
> 
> You see?This is what I'm getting at too. I would like more information than simply "The Root Master said it, so it must be fact." I'm open to convincing.


 
Testimony is evidence.  You attempted to disqualify Juchnik's testimony with circumstancial arguments as to how that would not have been possible and I brought circumstantial arguments to say how it would have been.  Right now we have more evidence for Trias meeting Mitose in Hawaii than we have against.  I have no further evidence so unless you have something else to bring to the table I see no point in further discussion because if you're gonna keep saying the same things you've been saying, I'll say the same things I've been saying.  If that's what you want we can save time by reading and re-reading our previous posts until we're both satisfied.

_Don Flatt


----------



## Kosho Gakkusei

MJS said:


> Don,
> 
> Thank you for the breakdown.  ....


 
Your welcome.  I appreciate your response because Danjo has had me wondering if I was making any sense.

Sounds like you got it at least.

Thanks.

_Don


----------



## Danjo

Kosho Gakkusei said:


> My last response to Danjo - What contradiction? You've been told in a previous post that the videos are a supplement to not replacement for live instruction.
> 
> 
> 
> The link you cited:
> 
> Read it, says the same thing.
> [/size]
> 
> check it here. http://www.koshoelessons.com/faq.html
> 
> My problem with Danjo's questioning is the disregard of answers he's been given. This has the appearance of manufacturing artificial arguments.
> 
> Danjo, from the picture in your profile you look like a cool guy to hang with. I'd love to get together sometime and have some laughs, spar, or cross train - maybe even buy you a drink. But it's fruitless for me to have a discussion with someone who will not even acknowledge my responses and keep asking the same question.
> 
> 
> 
> Testimony is evidence. You attempted to disqualify Juchnik's testimony with circumstancial arguments as to how that would not have been possible and I brought circumstantial arguments to say how it would have been. Right now we have more evidence for Trias meeting Mitose in Hawaii than we have against. I have no further evidence so unless you have something else to bring to the table I see no point in further discussion because if you're gonna keep saying the same things you've been saying, I'll say the same things I've been saying. If that's what you want we can save time by reading and re-reading our previous posts until we're both satisfied.
> 
> _Don Flatt


 
It has been said that Kosho has to be felt to be learned. No problem. Then how is it that it is able to be learned via video? That was a fundamental question that "It's a supplement" doesn't answer very well. It started because of the responses that say things like, "You have to see it live in a studio because it can't be put into words" etc. if it can't be put into words, then how can it be put on the internet? The question was never answered, so I kept trying to rephrase it. Sorry if it came off as ignoring you.

Secondly, who's testimony are we referring to as evidence? We know that Mitose started teaching in 1942 before Trias even had rank in the MAs. That is according to both Mitose and Trias' official history. The only one saying differently is Juchnik who wasn't there, In other words, he's making an assertion that is unsubstantiated and apparantly contradicts the know facts. I'm not being obtuse, and I do appreciate the information that's been given so far. I'm trying to nail down the rest of it. Most arts are pretty transparent, so it would be nice to get a pretty decent picture of what goes on in a Kosho class.

If Kosho is nothing more than a philosophy, then the practitioners should have the integrity to say so. JKD is only a philosophy and there's no problem with that. If it's a system, then it will have a curriculum (at least a core curriculum that all the schools start with). If the curriculum differs completely from one school to the next, then it's not really a system.

This is a good chance to get this stuff down here, so let's put the egos and esoteric posturing aside and put it out there.

Thanks.


----------



## Kosho-Monk

Danjo,

I think it might be easier for me to point out some differences via your description of #3 and #15.  Please type in the way you do the combos and I'll start from there.

Let me also ask you... do you believe the SKK combos taught to you work the way you were taught them?


Thanks,
John


----------



## kosho

Danjo,
          You asked for a post on testing. I posted a Green belt test That I ( kosho ) hold for my students... That is the written part then a 5 hr Pysical part...Just Wondering what your thoughts where for that  test. brown belt is 8 hrs  and black belt is a (2) day test. 16 hrs plus a written test also...testing under me is really hard... your thoughts?
yellow 1 hr 
orange 1 1/2 hrs 
purple 2 1/2 hrs 
blue 3 1/2 - 4 hrs
green 5hrs
brown 8 hrs
Black belt 2 day 16 hrs...
Kosho


----------



## Kosho-Monk

Danjo,

Anyone saying that Kosho is a system of martial arts is wrong.  It's not a system and Hanshi Juchnik has been very clear about that.

Kosho is a philosophy of more than just martial arts.  It's a philosophy that one can live by.  Curriculums are different from school to school because Kosho is conceptually based (natural laws) and taught that way.  I believe this has been said many times on this website.

I believe I said that the video lessons are good because you can take an idea and work it with a partner to gain an understanding.  Of course that's barring any misunderstandings you might get from only seeing it via video.  I thought that was a clear answer to your question about video lessons.

I also stated that I think Mitose met Trias after moving from Hawaii to California.  And it was at that time Trias talked Mitose into teaching again.  I could be wrong and I encourage you to call Hanshi Juchnik to get clarification.  Also let's be clear that Hanshi Juchnik hasn't said anything on this forum - only some students of Kosho have.

Also, it seems that you imply that philisophical based arts are less than systemized arts.  Is that what you are implying when you say "If Kosho is nothing more than a philosophy..."?

Are there any questions that you feel haven't been answered?


Take care,
John


----------



## kosho

Danjo,
            The map says you are about 6 hrs from Pat kelly sensei. 
He is in Elk grove CA... If you have a weekend away some time Call him and set up a private class with him for some time...He is  a great Person and a TOP kosho senior.
I truly know you will not be disappointed
Kosho


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## tshadowchaser

A couple of techniques have been mentioned  so Danjo would you start by explaining how you where taught Technique number 3 and then hopefuly Kosho-Monk will say where the differences are in the way he dose the technique.  After that perhapes we can review technique # 15


----------



## Danjo

Kosho-Monk said:


> Danjo,
> 
> I think it might be easier for me to point out some differences via your description of #3 and #15. Please type in the way you do the combos and I'll start from there.
> 
> Let me also ask you... do you believe the SKK combos taught to you work the way you were taught them?
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> John


 
Aside from #6 and #7 no. I'll type out some descriptions later today.


----------



## Benjp

Danjo said:


> Most arts are pretty transparent, so it would be nice to get a pretty decent picture of what goes on in a Kosho class.



A typical class in our dojo consists of 4 or more the following (usually 10-15 minutes for each):
kata
waza training (though randoori, described in an earlier post)
history
story telling (koan or legend that applies to what we had learned)
ettiquette
shiatsu
games for developing coordination
sparring
rolling/falling
brushwork
kanji investigations
basics (stances, punching, kicking, blocking)
yoga
the 8 directions jumping, blocking, and stance patterns
weapons training

Is this transparent enough, or do you have specific questions about what I listed?



> If Kosho is nothing more than a philosophy, then the practitioners should have the integrity to say so. JKD is only a philosophy and there's no problem with that. If it's a system, then it will have a curriculum (at least a core curriculum that all the schools start with). If the curriculum differs completely from one school to the next, then it's not really a system.



The curriculum _does_ differ form one school to the next.  I believe that this is because there are very few Kosho-only trained yudansha and many of the instructors teach the concepts of Kosho through other curriculums.  For example, MT username kosho uses SKK to teach Kosho concepts. 

However, from what I've seen the base requirements are fairly similar and each teacher has the ability to add more.



> This is a good chance to get this stuff down here, so let's put the egos and esoteric posturing aside and put it out there.
> 
> Thanks.



I'm not here to boost my ego, only to help.  If I'm of no help, please ding my rep with a helpful comment, or post a helpful response.

Thanks,

Ben


----------



## Danjo

kosho said:


> Danjo,
> You asked for a post on testing. I posted a Green belt test That I ( kosho ) hold for my students... That is the written part then a 5 hr Pysical part...Just Wondering what your thoughts where for that test. brown belt is 8 hrs and black belt is a (2) day test. 16 hrs plus a written test also...testing under me is really hard... your thoughts?
> yellow 1 hr
> orange 1 1/2 hrs
> purple 2 1/2 hrs
> blue 3 1/2 - 4 hrs
> green 5hrs
> brown 8 hrs
> Black belt 2 day 16 hrs...
> Kosho


 
My response is "It takes that long to see if someone has green belt skills?" etc. etc.

But I do thank you for the information and we'll see what else we get to compare.


----------



## Kosho Gakkusei

Kosho-Monk said:


> I also stated that I think Mitose met Trias after moving from Hawaii to California. And it was at that time Trias talked Mitose into teaching again. I could be wrong and I encourage you to call Hanshi Juchnik to get clarification. Also let's be clear that Hanshi Juchnik hasn't said anything on this forum - only some students of Kosho have.


 
John,
What I heard Hanshi say less than two weeks ago was that Trias convinced Mitose to teach in the first place.  I'm sure Hanshi Juchnik is aware that Trias was not a martial artist until after he returned from WWII.  Juchnik said that Thomas Young had said that Trias knew Mitose before any of his early students did.

Danjo is convinced that since Trias was not a martial artist at the time, he would have no interest in or reason to talk to Mitose.  Which makes perfect sense because only Martial Artists talk to other Martial Artists and only another Martial Artist could convince a Martial Artist to begin teaching.  Again this point is one I made 1 page ago.



Danjo said:


> I can't change time and space. The Pre-War Trias was not a martial artist, so why whould he be talking to Mitose about teaching the martial arts? Where is your evidence that he met with Mitose in Hawaii?


 


Kosho Gakkusei said:


> Just because Trias was not yet a martial artist does not mean he had no interest in martial arts or interest in talking to Mitose. In fact, since we know Trias had later become a martial artist how much more would he have been motivated to talk to Mitose especially if he had somehow learned Mitose was a Martia Arts Master.


 
Further proof the man is not listening to anything anyone else has to say and Shawn was right.



BlackCatBonz said:


> I know you're tenacious in your attempts at getting guys to go over and over the details of this art, and I'm sure you've read every reply closely and take great pride in watching people try to explain time and again until they've typed their fingers raw hoping you'll get it eventually.
> 
> Here is me saying, give it up guys........he doesn't care.


 
_Don Flatt


----------



## tshadowchaser

_ATTENTION ALL USERS:

_Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

Sheldon Bedell 
MT MOD


----------



## Monadnock

Danjo said:


> My response is "It takes that long to see if someone has green belt skills?" etc. etc.
> 
> But I do thank you for the information and we'll see what else we get to compare.


 
Most martial art schools do not set up students to fail. A good teacher will know before the student takes the test if they are a good candidate for the rank they are testing. I am sure the length of the test has nothing to do with giving the teacher time to decide if the student can pass/fail.

Don't the teachers in Kajukenbo work closely enough with their students to know before hand? Granted there can always be surprises -- a student can have an off day --  but for the most part, when you are ready, you are ready. And the teacher should already know when his/her students are up for the test. The length of test is not the measure of rank.


----------



## John Bishop

Robert Trias talks about his meetings with James Mitose in his book "The Pinnacle of Karate".   He describes the meetings as a "effort to bring together the Shorei Ryu katas with the katas taught by Mitose".  
Trias, in his own biographies states that he did not "have any interest" in the martial arts until 1942.  He was a boxer in the Navy, and thought the martial arts were useless.   When Tung Gee Hsing  approached him about trading martial arts lessons for boxing lessons, he had no interest in doing so.  Finally, after Hsing's persistence, he said he would spar with Hsing in the boxing ring to see if his martial arts had any merit.  The result of the match convinced Trias to become Hsing's student.  This was in the Solomon Islands, in 1942.   Hsing was a student of Choki Motobu, and taught Trias the "Shorei Ryu" style.   So Trias had no knowledge of the "Shorei Ryu katas before 1942.

James Mitose claimed to have started teaching students around 1936.  Trias was 14 years old in 1936.   Thomas Young told me that he, William Chow, and Jiro Nakamura started training with Mitose in his garage in 1941.  And that they were already black belts when the "Official Self Defense Club" was started "after the war", which would be 1946.


----------



## Kosho Gakkusei

Very interesting.  That's information that does conflict with what I've been told. Though your timeline does not gel with what is known about Mitose - Mitose taught in Hawaii from 1942 to 1946.

From SKSKI site http://www.collectivesociety.com/skski/modern.html


> James Mitose moved from Japan to Hawaii in 1936. He felt great respect and love for the United States and its people, who had treated him very well. On December 8th, 1941, the day after the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor and the U. S. entered World War II, Mitose was the first person in line to donate his blood for the cause. He also promptly joined the Hawaii Territorial Guard, an outfit which was formed to aid in the defense of the islands against what then seemed to be an imminent invasion by the Japanese. He also began teaching basic martial arts in early 1942. *The one who convinced Mitose Sensei to teach in Hawaii was Robert Trias. Trias Sensei was later the first man to open a karate school on the mainland U. S. Although Trias was not a student of Mitose Sensei, he often spoke with him and the two became friends. *
> 
> *Thomas S. H. Young, who provided the information concerning Trias to Juchnik Hanshi, was Mitose Sensei's first real student. Mitose only taught in Hawaii for four years, from 1942 to 1946.* Yudansha (Black Belt) certifications granted to students of Mitose's Official Self-Defense Club were awarded chronologically to Thomas Young (whose promotion by Mitose made him the first person ever to earn a Black Belt in Kempo west of asia), Jiro Nakamura (promoted by James Mitose), Arthur Keawe (promoted by James Mitose), Paul Yamaguchi (promoted by James Mitose), William Chow (promoted by Thomas Young), and Bobby Lowe (promoted by William Chow). This information was provided by Thomas Young, and later confirmed by other pioneers of Kempo present at the time.
> ...
> *Professor Thomas S.H. Young and Juchnik Hanshi worked together, from 1982 until the death of Professor Young in 1995*, to better connect James Mitose Sensei's early teachings from Hawaii in the 1940s with the new teachings transmitted to Juchnik Hanshi in the 1970s and 1980s. Mitose wished to see all Kempo students study the complete art of Kosho Ryu, including escaping and controlling arts along with the potentially destructive martial arts, healing arts, and cultural arts. Young and Juchnik both endeavored toward this goal. *Thomas Young was an active participating member until his death in Juchnik Hanshi's organization, the Sei Kosho Shorei Kai International (SKSKI).* The SKSKI was formed to preserve the teachings of James Mitose.



Also, Proffessor Young and Hanshi Juchnik worked together for 13 years in SKSKI.  Did you spend an equivalent amount of time with him?  Are you sure about your information?

_Don Flatt


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## kosho

Testing takes place every time you are in the Dojo. 
No I do not need 5 hrs, but it makes a nice day of testing the will power of some students. age and what not comes into play also...

Have a great day. 
6 hr ride... maybe thats to long also?
kosho


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## Kosho Gakkusei

Just a thought if Mitose did not teach until 1942 - and Trias became interested in Martial Arts in 1942 - is it possible that Trias convinced Mitose in 1942 while on furlough in Hawaii?

I'll ask Hanshi what else he knows about this.

_Don Flatt


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## sksk

Danjo,

What alot of people haven't done a good job of explaining is that there is a set currciulum and a minimum standard for Kosho, at least the verison taught by Hanshi Juchnik. I would be happy to describe certain things to the best of my abilitys. I do understand the frustration of asking a question and getting a question in return


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## sksk

sorry i forgot to sign off

best regards

George


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## Danjo

kosho said:


> Testing takes place every time you are in the Dojo.
> No I do not need 5 hrs, but it makes a nice day of testing the will power of some students. age and what not comes into play also...
> 
> Have a great day.
> 6 hr ride... maybe thats to long also?
> kosho


 
So you don't know the will power of those students before they test and it takes 5 hours to assess it? Many times tests are for other black belts to objectively assess what the instructor already knows. Is there really two days worth of material to get through on the physical part, or is it padded with other things like endurance challenges?


----------



## Danjo

sksk said:


> Danjo,
> 
> What alot of people haven't done a good job of explaining is that there is a set currciulum and a minimum standard for Kosho, at least the verison taught by Hanshi Juchnik. I would be happy to describe certain things to the best of my abilitys. I do understand the frustration of asking a question and getting a question in return


 
Cool. That would be enlightening. What are the core minimum Kosho techniques?


----------



## Danjo

Kosho-Monk said:


> Danjo,
> 
> I think it might be easier for me to point out some differences via your description of #3 and #15. Please type in the way you do the combos and I'll start from there.
> 
> Let me also ask you... do you believe the SKK combos taught to you work the way you were taught them?
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> John


 
These are taken from Matt Barnes' website, but they are what I learned also:

*3*  Step to 11 o'clock with the left foot slipping the punch over your right shoulder as you strike with a right reverse punch to the bladder. Right hand returns to chamber as left hand slides up to opponent's right shoulder. Left hand pushes shoulder down as you strike right with a back two knuckle punch to the temple. Reach across to the far shoulder with the right hand, grab under the right shoulder. Push down with the left and pull with the right as you step back with the right foot for the takedown. Just before the head reaches the ground, strike to the face with a left thrust punch. 

*15*  Step forward with the right leg into a twist stance while performing a #5 block. Redirect their punch to their groin while stepping out with your left leg and striking with a cranes arm to the front of their neck. Step back with the right leg pulling them onto the table created by your left leg. Rake down their body with a tiger claw with the right arm. Rake back on their body with a tiger claw with the right arm. Right dropping elbow to the face. While stepping back with the left leg, right hammer to the chest, dropping them on the ground with force.


----------



## Kosho-Monk

Danjo,

I'll start with #3.

Slipping the punch and striking into the midsection of the attacker on the right side will most likely have you dealing with their body mass.  I would suggest moving around the punch by stepping to angle 5 of the kosho octagon (kind of like moving to 10/11 o'clock) with the left foot and then stepping again towards angle 7 (kind of like moving to 1/2 o'clock) with the right foot while checking the attacking side at the shoulder (using the 90 principle of kosho) causing the attacker's base to be moved before striking the midsection.  This should eliminate taking on the attacker's body mass.

After striking the midsection I would check the attacker's secondary rotation, probably at the tricep muscle (but it would depend on their position) in order to keep them from striking me again, and then immediately throwing the back punch to the head.

At this time my left hand would sink down to the attacker's right hip in order to check their movement again while reaching across with my right hand to secure the front side of the left shoulder.  By pressing down and in on the hip and holding or pulling the shoulder back I can create a #2 fold in the attacker and have them falling backwards.

Hitting them with the last punch is optional and other strikes, or not strikes at all, might be needed.

I would judge my effectiveness of this technique by the amount of muscling I had to do to get the attacker down.  Of course if the attacker did something unexpected (as attacker's often do) I would change the entire course of action at the point when it wasn't working.

There is still some weight shifting and other thoughts I would show the student - but I'll stop here.

On a side note I will also have more advanced students work this combination (and all techniques) with different variations like - right, left, inside, outside, grab, kick, weapon, all 8 angles of attack - just to name a few.

By doing this we see that the technique is nothing more than a drill in order to really understand the true lessons of Kosho like timing, distance, rotation, visual plane, etc.

Hope this helps.


Take care,
John


----------



## John Bishop

Kosho Gakkusei said:


> Very interesting.  That's information that does conflict with what I've been told. Though your timeline does not gel with what is known about Mitose - Mitose taught in Hawaii from 1942 to 1946.
> 
> From SKSKI site http://www.collectivesociety.com/skski/modern.html
> 
> 
> Also, Proffessor Young and Hanshi Juchnik worked together for 13 years in SKSKI.  Did you spend an equivalent amount of time with him?  Are you sure about your information?
> 
> _Don Flatt



It's not really my time line.   Mitose told others that he started teaching some select students as early as 1936.  And he told some others a different story.  But you will find that a lot when dealing with Mitose.
In a 1958 interview with Bruce Haines (author: "Karate's History and Traditions" Tuttle Books,  "Karate and it's Development in Hawaii to 1959" University of Hawaii,  ), he told Haines that he did not return to Hawaii until 1940.  But in another interview in 1960, he gave the year as being 1936.    And that it was the bombing of Pearl Harbor, on Dec. 7th, 1941 that convinced him to start teaching self defense to the masses at the Beretania Mission in Honolulu, in 1942.  So this is what he told Bruce Haines in 1958 and 1960.   Yet Thomas Young told me in a interview in 1988, that they started in Mitose's garage in 1941, and didn't move to the Mission until  "after the war", 1946. 
And Mitose did teach, at least sporatically, long past 1946.   Paul Yamaguichi was promoted to shodan by Mitose in 1952.  And Bobby Lowe was promoted to shodan by Mitose in 1953.  Arthur Keave, was also promoted to shodan by Mitose in the early 50's. 

As to Trias and Mitose.  Many have questioned Trias's accounts of his early training in the Soloman Islands during World War II.   This is a description of the Solomon Islands during WWII.


*World War II*

*Some of the most intense fighting of World War II occurred in the Solomons between 1942-45.  The most significant of the Allied Forces' operations against the Japanese Imperial Forces was launched on August 7, 1942 with simultaneous naval bombardments and amphibious landings on the Florida Islands at Tulagi and Red Beach on Guadalcanal.   The Battle of Guadalcanal* *became an important and bloody campaign fought in the Pacific War as the Allies began to repulse Japanese expansion.  
*

So, many historians of the Japanese/Okinawan arts have asked how it was possible for Trias to be training in boxing and martial arts, and taking leaves to Hawaii,  in the middle of some of the fiercest fighting during WWII.


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## BlackCatBonz

Danjo, against my better judgement I've decided to post once again.

I fail to see how I have derailed this discussion.
I gave you some pertinent information regarding kosho ryu with the Takamura quote.
Rather than coming back with an intelligent response, you chose to ignore the info entirely.
We have gone over this time and again.....you've been invited to call Bruce Juchnik on many occasions.
It will eventually become plain to these guys that you have no interest and they will stop humouring you with responses. 
margaritas ante porcos.

Consider yourself lucky, John Bishop puts up with you.


----------



## BlackCatBonz

John Bishop said:


> It's not really my time line. Mitose told others that he started teaching some select students as early as 1936. And he told some others a different story. But you will find that a lot when dealing with Mitose.
> In a 1958 interview with Bruce Haines (author: "Karate's History and Traditions" Tuttle Books, "Karate and it's Development in Hawaii to 1959" University of Hawaii, ), he told Haines that he did not return to Hawaii until 1940. But in another interview in 1960, he gave the year as being 1936. And that it was the bombing of Pearl Harbor, on Dec. 7th, 1941 that convinced him to start teaching self defense to the masses at the Beretania Mission in Honolulu, in 1942. So this is what he told Bruce Haines in 1958 and 1960. Yet Thomas Young told me in a interview in 1988, that they started in Mitose's garage in 1941, and didn't move to the Mission until "after the war", 1946.
> And Mitose did teach, at least sporatically, long past 1946. Paul Yamaguichi was promoted to shodan by Mitose in 1952. And Bobby Lowe was promoted to shodan by Mitose in 1953. Arthur Keave, was also promoted to shodan by Mitose in the early 50's.
> 
> As to Trias and Mitose. Many have questioned Trias's accounts of his early training in the Soloman Islands during World War II. This is a description of the Solomon Islands during WWII.
> 
> 
> *World War II*
> 
> *Some of the most intense fighting of World War II occurred in the Solomons between 1942-45. The most significant of the Allied Forces' operations against the Japanese Imperial Forces was launched on August 7, 1942 with simultaneous naval bombardments and amphibious landings on the Florida Islands at Tulagi and Red Beach on Guadalcanal. The Battle of Guadalcanal* *became an important and bloody campaign fought in the Pacific War as the Allies began to repulse Japanese expansion. *
> 
> 
> So, many historians of the Japanese/Okinawan arts have asked how it was possible for Trias to be training in boxing and martial arts, and taking leaves to Hawaii, in the middle of some of the fiercest fighting during WWII.


 
I dont think it's hard to tell that a lot of gentlemen padded their stories in order to come across as something more.
Trias was probably another one of these folks.


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## John Bishop

BlackCatBonz said:


> I dont think it's hard to tell that a lot of gentlemen padded their stories in order to come across as something more.
> Trias was probably another one of these folks.



Yes, that crosses over into many styles, if not all.


----------



## Danjo

BlackCatBonz said:


> Danjo, against my better judgement I've decided to post once again.
> 
> I fail to see how I have derailed this discussion.
> I gave you some pertinent information regarding kosho ryu with the Takamura quote.
> Rather than coming back with an intelligent response, you chose to ignore the info entirely.
> We have gone over this time and again.....you've been invited to call Bruce Juchnik on many occasions.
> It will eventually become plain to these guys that you have no interest and they will stop humouring you with responses.
> margaritas ante porcos.
> 
> Consider yourself lucky, John Bishop puts up with you.


 
Real good reply Shawn. Look, I've read what was written about you in regards to your authority to talk about Kosho Ryu on SJK before it was deleted out of politeness. I've read your post about your supposed early training which reads like a really bad B-Movie script (no I won't post it again just now because anyone can find it since I've re-posted it so many times). You come on here and _you're_ the one who's acting rude.

I'm blunt and sceptical, but not devoid of reason. What I am attempting to do here is narrow down what exactly Kosho Ryu is. I've talked to Eugene Sedeño about the prison visits and have his views on them. He was respectful, frank and informative and not trying to sell me anything. What he told me made perfect sense and so my curiosity continues as I try to get some things nailed down.

Someone offered to post about the core curriculum, and so I eagerly await that. These people seem like grown-ups that can fend for themselves when it comes to explaining what it is that they teach and train in. If Mitose started it all, then he started with something that he was teaching. He wasn't taking SKK techniques and tweaking them etc. Since I have little to no interest in Calligraphy or massage, I am interested in the fighting side of the art and what is unique about it. What is currently taught as Kosho Ryu and how much of that came directly from Mitose.

All known MAs are defined by their techniques and forms. These are the expressions of the concepts. Without these physical manifestations of the concepts, there is no martial art, but rather mere philosophy like JKD which is no more than an approach to training and is empty by itself and must be applied to other existing arts in order to manifest itself. As Bruce Lee said himself of JKD, "It's just a name." If one says that avoidance is Kosho Ryu, then any instance of avoidance could be called Kosho Ryu including acts of cowardice. However, if it is a true art, then it will have specific, unique techniques or forms that illustrate the concept of whatever is trying to be taught. Otherwise it is not a martial art and thus no one should have any rank in it. All rank wshould be in other arts that are done from the Kosho Ryu point of view etc.

I'm sure if your original Kenpo instructor could read he would agree with me Shawn.


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## BlackCatBonz

If you recall......several of my posts in the past talked about the many drills that are used in kosho.
You're not going to learn them from a dvd.......even if you watched them 100 times......because it's not a technique that is learned by rote.
there are specific principles that are to be kept in mind while doing them.
Heck, i even posted the student handbook on my dumb yahoo page.......you were free to go and look at it.....but you never did........yellow through black laid out in easy to read fashion.

go and see bruce juchnik for heavens sake.......jeez man, I'm not so much of an a-hole that even after all of the exchanges you and I have had that i wouldnt sit down and work some of this stuff with you.

You have been a bit obtuse in the past Dan......but I don't lie about squat, i have no need to, what you see or read is what you get.....
I'm opinionated and for the most part, know exactly what I am talking about.
Don't you think people more in the know than me would have said BS a long time ago?

If you want to sit back and feign interest.......I'm going to tell everyone what a BS artist you are.

If you were legitimately interested, you would've made a call or a visit by now.

The art of Kosho is really quite simple on one level.......it's offensive force based on tai sabaki done well. Tactical repositioning.
What dontcha get?

Read "Canon of Judo", by Kyuzo Mifune........the principles of Ju are the same utilized by Kosho.


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## Kosho Gakkusei

John Bishop said:


> It's not really my time line. *Mitose told others that he started teaching some select students as early as 1936.* And he told some others a different story. But you will find that a lot when dealing with Mitose.


 
John, could you direct me to the source of that information?  I've never heard it claimed that Mitose began teaching in 1936.  All sources I've read place the timeline after Pearl Harbor - 1941 or 1942.  1936 sounds more like when Mitose returned to the states from Japan.  I have both of Mitose's books and that's what both of them say - What is Self Defense? Kenpo Jiu-Jitsu (1953) & What is True Self Defense? (1981)



John Bishop said:


> And Mitose did teach, at least sporatically, long past 1946. Paul Yamaguichi was promoted to shodan by Mitose in 1952. And Bobby Lowe was promoted to shodan by Mitose in 1953. Arthur Keave, was also promoted to shodan by Mitose in the early 50's.


 
I'm not sure why the SKSKI website says Mitose only taught until 1946.  I can see how that could be a little mis-leading.  1946 is when he passed  the Oficial Self Defense Club to Thomas Young.  I've heard Juchnik tell of how Young told him Mitose would stop by the club from time to time until he left for the mainland in 1954.  From then on Mitose would stop in Hawaii from time to time on his travels up until the time of his incarceration, especially when Mitose would travel to Japan.  It was on one of these journeys to Japan when Mitose was awarded a 10th Dan by Moreih Ueshiba in Aikido.  As a point of fact though Bobby Lowe's Shodan Certificate was signed by Chow and Chow's was signed by Young.



John Bishop said:


> As to Trias and Mitose. Many have questioned Trias's accounts of his early training in the Soloman Islands during World War II. This is a description of the Solomon Islands during WWII.
> 
> 
> *World War II*
> 
> *Some of the most intense fighting of World War II occurred in the Solomons between 1942-45. The most significant of the Allied Forces' operations against the Japanese Imperial Forces was launched on August 7, 1942 with simultaneous naval bombardments and amphibious landings on the Florida Islands at Tulagi and Red Beach on Guadalcanal. The Battle of Guadalcanal* *became an important and bloody campaign fought in the Pacific War as the Allies began to repulse Japanese expansion. *
> 
> *
> So, many historians of the Japanese/Okinawan arts have asked how it was possible for Trias to be training in boxing and martial arts, and taking leaves to Hawaii, in the middle of some of the fiercest fighting during WWII*.


 
So then if Trias did indeed learn Martial Arts during this time it is viable that he may have been the one to encourage Mitose to teach.

_Don Flatt


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## sksk

Danjo, 

i have to get home to my wife and baby, but i will write out and try to explain the curriculum for one of the ranks tomorrow. Your point about Jun fan gung fu with a set curriculum and jeet kune do with a philosophical approach to combat is pretty close to some of the structuring of kosho. I welcome your questions it is always good to examine the hows,what and wheres of your art. 

All the best

George


----------



## John Bishop

Kosho Gakkusei said:


> John, could you direct me to the source of that information?  I've never heard it claimed that Mitose began teaching in 1936.  All sources I've read place the timeline after Pearl Harbor - 1941 or 1942.  1936 sounds more like when Mitose returned to the states from Japan.  I have both of Mitose's books and that's what both of them say - What is Self Defense? Kenpo Jiu-Jitsu (1953) & What is True Self Defense? (1981)



Well, the first one that comes to mind would be the sworn testimony of James Mitose in the trial transcript of the "People of the State of California vs. James Mitose".  He actually talks about teaching police cadets in Japan prior to coming back to Hawaii.   And then continuing to teach upon returning to Hawaii in 1936.



Kosho Gakkusei said:


> I'm not sure why the SKSKI website says Mitose only taught until 1946.  I can see how that could be a little mis-leading.  1946 is when he passed  the Oficial Self Defense Club to Thomas Young.  I've heard Juchnik tell of how Young told him Mitose would stop by the club from time to time until he left for the mainland in 1954.



Actually, most of my references (which I'll be glad to list) say that Mitose turned the Official Self defense Club over to Thomas Young in 1953.  He then returned to his original home on the big island (Hawaii) until 1954, when he moved to Los Angeles, Ca.
In fact Mitose also gave this account to Bruce Haines, who conducted very extensive interviews with Mitose between 1958-1960.




Kosho Gakkusei said:


> It was on one of these journeys to Japan when Mitose was awarded a 10th Dan by Moreih Ueshiba in Aikido.



Actually, Mitose's honorary promotion in aikido did not come from Ueshiba.  It was given by Koichi Tohei, as a business agreement.

http://www.sanjosekenpo.com/mitose_and_the_aikido_connection.htm

Or see Rev. Kyusho Furuya's description of Mitose's aikido promotion.
http://www.aikidocenterla.com/2004/9/22.html
See:  *Bits & Pieces - History of Aikido In Southern California*



Kosho Gakkusei said:


> So then if Trias did indeed learn Martial Arts during this time it is viable that he may have been the one to encourage Mitose to teach.
> 
> _Don Flatt



Your not getting it.  Trias was a seaman on a Naval Warship in the middle of fierce fighting in the Solomon Islands.  It's very doubtful that he went ashore where there were 25,000 hostile Japanese soldiers, and took karate lessons.


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## BlackCatBonz

the whole trias issue is pushing this way off course


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## Danjo

BlackCatBonz said:


> the whole trias issue is pushing this way off course


 
Well it's all related to Kosho Ryu, which is the subject of this thread.

As, to the rest of your earlier post...we're not really going to get along here Shawn. You think that my interest is feigned and I think your whole back story is made up. We're at an impasse with each other and should probably refrain from commenting on each other's posts.


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## Monadnock

opcorn:

This is truely fascinating....great job guys...


----------



## koshonokenza

Hello again everyone, I think that it's time some things be explained to everyone, including those speaking on behalf of Kosho Ryu. 

  This post is most directly aimed toward answering many of the excellent questions posted by Danjo. Lets start by explaining that "Kosho Ryu Kempo" is a martial art style with a set minimum required curriculum to Black Belt ,regardless of what other people may be saying.This was set by Hanshi Bruce Juchnik himself over 20 years ago! Weather people follow or are ranked in accordance to these minimum requirements is a whole other issue.. "Kosho Shorei Ryu" is a philosophical self study,not a martial art! I think many people making posts here are confused about this. The whole system "Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo"Is a complete study including But not limited to,The martial arts,Brush calligraph "shodo",Healing arts "shiatsu,Anma,herbology",Phiolosophy,meditation etc. Yes ,Kosho Ryu is a style. It is kempo that is not a style. Kempo Means fist law or fist study Kosho ryu is the style or method to follow that study. ie  Wado Ryu Kempo,Shorinji Kempo etc.

  Much of the early development of Kosho Ryu, (Post Bruce Juchnik)was developed based on directives set forth by Mitose to Bruce Juchnik. Because of the limited time that Hanshi spent with Mitose (appx 5years) and because of the limitations due to Mitose Sensei's incarceration (sp) Hanshi did not get a written set curriculum from Mitose i.e. kata ,techniques,etc that were passed down through the generations from master to teacher. Instead Mitose showed Hanshi and explained to him that certain things needed to be studied to better understand Kosho Ryu. i.e. Kata, Swordsmanship,History,religion,healing arts etc.. Through the concepts and principles Mitose had given him, Juchnik Hanshi began his path toward preserving and spreading the study of Kosho ryu. If you want questions answered concerning the entire base curriculum of Kosho Ryu Kempo, I will gladly give you the oppurtunity to contact Hanshi Juchnik to get a copy of that curriculum. It is a bit too much to list here! 


  Those of you posting comments on behalf of Kosho Ryu,please be mindful of the things that you post. As they may reflect all of those who practice Kosho Ryu. Keep in mind that information that you think is accurate should be checked with Juchnik Hanshi or one of the Senior representitives of Kosho Ryu before you post to everyone as fact. One of the great things about Hanshi Juchnik is that he allows the practitioner to explore the study of Kosho in there own way. Some people forget that Hanshi spent years on his own path to reach the understandings he has today. This included studying many other art forms. Training with many great teachers .And training his basics religiously.


  I will say this however, It is true that if you want to better understand Kosho Ryu, Where it comes from,how its taught,how effective it is as a martial art,then you need to stop asking questions on the net and go to a seminar or class with one of the senior representitives of Kosho Ryu. It has been my opinion that you can't count on someone else's opinion. You have to get out there and experience it for your self. Of course practitioners of Kosho Ryu are going to be biased and think Kosho is the greatest. The same way an Aikido practitioner will think their art is the greatest.

  As far as how Kosho Ryu is taught from school to school. I really can't answer for other school owners. I would hope that they are doing at least the same types of drills,basics,Katas and Sub arts that are taught within the Kosho Ryu Curriculm. Many schools have crossed over from other martial arts to become Kosho Ryu Schools including myself.At my school I teach fundamentals based on the octagon, punching ,kicking, locking ,throwing from all ranges. history ,healing arts ,Kumite ,Kata and all the principles and concepts within the art.I teach strictly out of the Kosho Ryu curriculum set forth By Hanshi.

  I hope this helps clear up some of the questions that were asked earlier and hope the rest of the threads can remain civil and informitive. 

-Tony DiSarro


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## Danjo

Mr. DiSarro,

Thanks for your thorough reply to the question(s). This is the first time that I have heard that there was a difference between "_Kosho Ryu Kempo_" and "_Kosho Shorei Ryu_" and "_Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo_" etc. You've brought honesty to the table here and it makes the picture much more clear. It explains how and why there is a difference between what Mitose taught originally and what is taught now by Juchnik's group and avoids the esoteric mumbo jumbo that often accompanies these discussions. Thanks again.

---Dan


----------



## Kosho-Monk

Hi Tony,

Great post.  I do have some comments and questions for you. 

Let's talk curriculum first.  Yes, Hanshi has a set a curriculum but I have not met many Kosho practitioners that actually have all the "requirements" for the ranks.  This leads me to believe that the curriculum is not really the important part of the study of Kosho, but rather the concepts or natural laws that are to be learned via the curriculum.  What I'm saying is that it seems as long as students are grasping the "real" lessons of Kosho (90, zig zag, move twice, etc., etc.) then memorization of the curriculum is secondary.

Also - how many students are truly able to brush out all of the required kanji, know all of the history, understand shiatsu at the level required, have all the weapons katas, etc.?  I've been to enough Kosho seminars and Gatherings to know that these "requirements" are not really required.

At my dojo we practice the drills, katas, etc. to the best of my abilities.  And in doing so I believe we are on the correct path of Kosho studies.  And since I hold a nidan in Kosho, given to me by Hanshi, I have to assume I am on the right path.  Otherwise why would I have the rank?

Do we know if Mitose had a set curriculum that he used to teach?  Certain things in certain orders?  He did write a manuscript to teach the important aspects of Kosho - which I have - that states certain things should be done in a certain order - but they are all drills or other kinds of exercises (mental and physical).

The bulk of the kata done within the Kosho ryu have been added in by Hanshi.  Mitose didn't do that many katas but I also don't believe that bulk is better.  In fact, I would argue that the more a student must memorize, the less time he or she has to spend on really gaining knowledge from the practice.

On the posting of Kosho here - I agree that we must all be mindfull to, at the very least, state that what we say is our understanding of Kosho or the way we do things in our dojo.  I agree that there are many different "versions" of Kosho out there, if you judge it by the way it is taught from dojo to dojo.  Hanshi Juchnik is the authority of Kosho within the Sei Kosho Shorei Kai and only he (and maybe a couple others) have the "final" say on what Kosho (as taught within the Kai) is.

Many of us have encouraged many of them to attend Kosho events.  I agree that this is the only way anyone can really get to know what Kosho is.

What I teach at my school is not strictly out of the Kosho curriculum.  Hanshi told me that I did not need to do that.  I do teach the katas, but not in the same order or at the same ranks.  I have my own set of self defense techniqes that I use in order for students to practice certain ideas.  We do cover various aspects of the sub-arts, but again, not in the order outlined.

In Mitose's writings his clearly states that the individual is their own best teacher.  I believe that.  I believe that when I gain an insight from Hanshi or you or Pat Kelly, etc. at a seminar it is up to me to go and work on what I picked up.  Only then can I learn and gain deeper understandings.  And if what I understand today doesn't exactly match what another Kosho student understands - that's fine.  Because we're both on our own path and gaining the wisdom that we need at the time we gain it.

Well, I think I've gone on long enough.  

Tony, you're a great Kosho teacher.  I hope to see you again soon.  Thanks for posting here and maybe your words were able to clear things up for some.  I look forward to reading your reply.


Take care,
John Evans


----------



## Kosho-Monk

Danjo,

Two things:

1) I posted my version of #3 combo and you haven't replied.  I believe that's because you didn't really care in the first place.

2) The difference between Kosho Shorei Ryu and Kosho Ryu Kempo can be found of the official Sei Kosho Shorei Kai website www.skski.net - which I posted at least twice before.  If you were really interested in learning about Kosho you would have checked out the site by now.


Take care,
John Evans


----------



## MJS

Well, please forgive this question, as theres alot to read thru and I may have missed something.  Is there a curriculum of material or not?  I've seen posts that state there is not, but then some led me to believe that there is.  Can someone clarify?

Thanks,

Mike


----------



## Kosho Gakkusei

Mike,

No one from Kosho has said there is not a curriculum.  Some skeptics have tried to insuate that.  

Hanshi Juchnik did put forth a curriculum over 20 years ago but he does allow his instructors alot of discretion as to their own schools.  So in actuality there's a number of curriculum.

_Don Flatt


----------



## Danjo

Kosho-Monk said:


> Danjo,
> 
> Two things:
> 
> 1) I posted my version of #3 combo and you haven't replied. I believe that's because you didn't really care in the first place.


 
I guess I was waiting to see your comment on #15 before replying to both, but here goes.

Well, I fail to see how your "tweaking" of the combo improves it to any real degree. In fact it seems to overly complicate it. I picked #3 because it was one of my favorites to use as is with a step through punch.

It seems like you're still teaching SKK with some free-styling and calling it Kosho. This is what I have understood _most_ of the Kosho folks to be doing. It's good to see that there _is_ a set curriculum for Kosho Ryu Kempo, but apparently most don't want to learn it enough to teach it, but rather take the Kosho Shoriei concepts and apply it to what they already know. 

I think the idea that you have them work variations off of different attacks is a good practice however.




Kosho-Monk said:


> 2) The difference between Kosho Shorei Ryu and Kosho Ryu Kempo can be found of the official Sei Kosho Shorei Kai website www.skski.net - which I posted at least twice before. If you were really interested in learning about Kosho you would have checked out the site by now.
> 
> 
> Take care,
> John Evans


 
There's one of me and a bunch of you guys throwing info at me. I will read it all. In fact I was watching Juchnik's "The Controversy" tape last night to brush up on this whole thing again. I'd let it go a while back after dealing with various evasive Kosho folk due to frustration with getting any real answers. 

Don't be overly influenced by some that claim I'm not interested in finding out about your art. Not all of us got to train with a guy who looked like he'd learned his art from a book until we discovered that he couldn't read who in turn learned an unknown form of Kempo from a mysterious samurai master that looked just like Kosho.


----------



## Kosho-Monk

OK.  My apologies then.  Perhaps you are interested in understanding more about Kosho.

I have to teach but I'll respond to why I made changes to the combos later.  And also to my thoughts about what Kosho is to me.


-John


----------



## Benjp

I offer my apologies, too.  I am as confused about the curriculum as MJS and Danjo.  I'm not an instructor, but a student.

Please consider my opinions and posts as just that, mine.  They are not necessarily the same as my teacher or my teacher's teacher.  My information is only as good as my experience--which isn't much at brown belt..  

By the way, for what it's worth, I think Shawn Bailey is one of Kosho's greatest online assets.  Thanks for your many insights on this and the other kenpo forums, Shawn.

Regards,

Ben


----------



## Kosho-Monk

To me Kosho has nothing to do with kata, techniques or any kind of curriculum.  It is about the study of natural law.  What does that mean?  Well, that's a huge discussion that I don't have the energy to type out.

So why do I practice kata, techniques and other pre-arrange material?  To better understand the natural laws that I have learned about since I started the study of Kosho.

I must also say that I don't just study the natural laws that deal with the physical but also the natural laws that deal with the mind and soul as well.  I'm not sure how many other Kosho students study that - but I find it gives me a more complete life-practice.  

For me changing the techniques that I had already learned to fit with Kosho ideas made more sense than coming up with all new ones.  The way I apply the combinations is in a way that reduces the amount of muscle strength required.  I believe with the changes I have made the techniques now take into consideration the an attacher keeps moving instead of standing still while I throw a bunch of fancy-looking strikes around him.

Also,  nearly all of the techniques I learned from SKK are very violent in nature.  Kosho's highest level is that of peace.  By changing the techniques I also have other "versions" in which I practice not hitting the person.  So when we talk about #3 combination I have versions that hit, control or evade using the same or similar movements I described before.

One might not see how these changes are valid - but that's only because they haven't felt the changes.  I can honestly say that every single SKK practitioner that I have shown my changes to has complimented me on them. 

Gotta run.  Take care,
John


----------



## Danjo

Kosho-Monk said:


> To me Kosho has nothing to do with kata, techniques or any kind of curriculum. It is about the study of natural law. What does that mean? Well, that's a huge discussion that I don't have the energy to type out.
> 
> So why do I practice kata, techniques and other pre-arrange material? To better understand the natural laws that I have learned about since I started the study of Kosho.
> 
> I must also say that I don't just study the natural laws that deal with the physical but also the natural laws that deal with the mind and soul as well. I'm not sure how many other Kosho students study that - but I find it gives me a more complete life-practice.
> 
> For me changing the techniques that I had already learned to fit with Kosho ideas made more sense than coming up with all new ones. The way I apply the combinations is in a way that reduces the amount of muscle strength required. I believe with the changes I have made the techniques now take into consideration the an attacher keeps moving instead of standing still while I throw a bunch of fancy-looking strikes around him.
> 
> Also, nearly all of the techniques I learned from SKK are very violent in nature. Kosho's highest level is that of peace. By changing the techniques I also have other "versions" in which I practice not hitting the person. So when we talk about #3 combination I have versions that hit, control or evade using the same or similar movements I described before.
> 
> One might not see how these changes are valid - but that's only because they haven't felt the changes. I can honestly say that every single SKK practitioner that I have shown my changes to has complimented me on them.
> 
> Gotta run. Take care,
> John


 
Well, I think I see where you are coming from on this. If one of your goals is to make a technique less "violent" okay. I prefer the more brutal and violent techniques personally. They tend to make me feel more secure in a violent encounter. When some one sees someone use a non-violent technique they think it was a fluke that it worked (Remember the Gracie Challenges where they would have to take the guy on several times and finally choke him out to prove it wasn't a fluke?). However, when someone is dealt with fast and hard, it tends to have a deterrant effect on bystanders as well as the one on the receiving end. Nothing like a knockout to end a confrontation and give the convincing impression that the attacker is out-classed. Granted, one should try to avoid getting there in the first place. But, like the Samurai of old who would simply lop off a head when confronted, once a fight is on, end it quickly and decisively. _"Whenever you cross swords with an enemy you must not think of cutting him either strongly or weakly; just think of cutting and killing him. Be intent solely on killing the enemy. Do not try to cut strongly and, of course, do not think of cutting weakly. You should only be concerned with killing the enemy_."---*Miyamoto Musashi*


----------



## Benjp

Danjo said:


> But, like the Samurai of old who would simply lop off a head when confronted, once a fight is on, end it quickly and decisively.



Remind me again--why did Mitose go to prison?


----------



## Carol

Folks, please keep the discussion on-topic.

Is there a curriculum to Kosho or not?  The responses conflict.



MJS said:


> Well, please forgive this question, as theres alot to read thru and I may have missed something.  Is there a curriculum of material or not?  I've seen posts that state there is not, but then some led me to believe that there is.  Can someone clarify?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Mike





Kosho Gakkusei said:


> Mike,
> 
> No one from Kosho has said there is not a curriculum.  Some skeptics have tried to insuate that.





Kosho-Monk said:


> To me Kosho has nothing to do with kata, techniques or any kind of curriculum.  It is about the study of natural law.


----------



## Danjo

Benjp said:


> Remind me again--why did Mitose go to prison?


 
For sicking his student on some old people after a failed extortion attempt.


----------



## Kosho-Monk

There is a curriculum set forth by Hanshi Juchnik - that has already been stated.  Not everyone who studies Kosho follows that curriculum exactly.  This is probably due to the fact the many of us switched from other arts.

I have my own curriculum that includes most of the aspects that Hanshi Juchnik requires - I just do them in a different order or at different ranks.


Back to class,
John Evans


----------



## DavidCC

Kosho-Monk said:


> To me Kosho has nothing to do with kata, techniques or any kind of curriculum. It is about the study of natural law. What does that mean? Well, that's a huge discussion that I don't have the energy to type out.
> John


 
Which Natural Law do you mean?  wiki alone has about 6 different meanings:

1.1 Aristotle
1.2 Stoic natural law
1.3 Christian natural law
1.4 Hobbes' natural law
1.5 Liberal natural law
 Contemporary Catholic Understanding 
In contemporary jurisprudence


----------



## Benjp

Danjo said:


> For sicking his student on some old people after a failed extortion attempt.



Yes, but the trial transcript reads more like he went to get the money and when the fight began, this mode kicked on:



			
				Danjo said:
			
		

> But, like the Samurai of old who would simply lop off a head when confronted, once a fight is on, end it quickly and decisively.





DavidCC said:


> I guess that depends on which Kosho Ryu you mean: The one taught in Hawaii, or the one taught in Fulsom.



At first I didn't understand this comment, but now it makes a lot more sense.  Pre-Fulsom, Mitose taught any means to an end.  Once in Fulsom Mitose taught this:



			
				Kosho-monk said:
			
		

> Kosho's highest level is that of peace.



I'm starting to understand better now.  In our history lessons, Mitose is made out to be a good guy.  So sometimes it's hard for me to be objective.

Thanks,

Ben


----------



## Danjo

Benjp said:


> Yes, but the trial transcript reads more like he went to get the money and when the fight began, this mode kicked on:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At first I didn't understand this comment, but now it makes a lot more sense. Pre-Fulsom, Mitose taught any means to an end. Once in Fulsom Mitose taught this:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm starting to understand better now.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Ben


----------



## Danjo

DavidCC said:


> Which Natural Law do you mean? wiki alone has about 6 different meanings:
> 
> 1.1 Aristotle
> 1.2 Stoic natural law
> 1.3 Christian natural law
> 1.4 Hobbes' natural law
> 1.5 Liberal natural law
> Contemporary Catholic Understanding
> In contemporary jurisprudence


 
Ancient Kosho Secret: What goes up, must come down.


----------



## Benjp

Danjo said:


> Ancient Kosho Secret: What goes up, must come down.



Dang it, Dan!  That was going to be my black belt thesis..


----------



## KenpoDave

Danjo said:


> _"Whenever you cross swords with an enemy you must not think of cutting him either strongly or weakly; just think of cutting and killing him. Be intent solely on killing the enemy. Do not try to cut strongly and, of course, do not think of cutting weakly. You should only be concerned with killing the enemy_."---*Miyamoto Musashi*


 
Yes, Musashi said this.  And he used wooden swords later in life to keep from killing his opponents.

Perspectives change.

As a newcomer to the arts, I preferred the more violent, decisive types of techniques.  Now I prefer to start with less violent, more controlling tactics and escalate if necessary.  Perhaps someday I will be good enough to just stare someone into submission.  Or even better, I will be the guy who never gets attacked.


----------



## John Bishop

I guess some of us are also wondering what techniques and/or principles may be unique to Kosho?
In my research of various martial arts systems, I've found that some like to use "catch phrases" to describe some principle that is in play in various techniques.   Phrases like "gravitational marriage" in EPAK, and "natural laws" in Kosho.   After close examination of what these phrases mean, I usually end up finding that they are common principles found in most martial arts.  The only thing different is the catch phrase.
I may or may not be correct.   But from what I've read so far about "natural laws", is that it applies to rules of nature concerning the human body and environment.  
So, as a example:  If I sweep an attackers legs out from under him, the "natural law" of gravity takes place, and the attacker falls to the floor.  And if I apply a wrist  lock or armbar to an attacker, the attackers limb is pushed or turned past the body's natural range of motion, and pain or injury to the limb occurs.
Now these are very common principles in all martial arts.   So, I guess my question is; is there anything unique in Kosho techniques or principles, that is not also common in other martial arts?


----------



## Danjo

KenpoDave said:


> Yes, Musashi said this. And he used wooden swords later in life to keep from killing his opponents.
> 
> Perspectives change.
> 
> As a newcomer to the arts, I preferred the more violent, decisive types of techniques. Now I prefer to start with less violent, more controlling tactics and escalate if necessary. Perhaps someday I will be good enough to just stare someone into submission. Or even better, I will be the guy who never gets attacked.


 
Well, until I get my Chi Strikes perfected, I'll stick with hitting people with my fists.


----------



## MJS

Kosho Gakkusei said:


> Mike,
> 
> No one from Kosho has said there is not a curriculum. Some skeptics have tried to insuate that.
> 
> Hanshi Juchnik did put forth a curriculum over 20 years ago but he does allow his instructors alot of discretion as to their own schools. So in actuality there's a number of curriculum.
> 
> _Don Flatt


 
Ok, thanks.  I think I may have been getting confused when there was discussion of the preset techs. that you'd find in EPAK compared to the non preset moves in Kosho.

Interesting thread BTW.   Certainly providing a good history lesson. 

Mike


----------



## Benjp

John Bishop said:


> In my research of various martial arts systems, I've found that some like to use "catch phrases" to describe some principle that is in play in various techniques.   Phrases like "gravitational marriage" in EPAK, and "natural laws" in Kosho.   After close examination of what these phrases mean, I usually end up finding that they are common principles found in most martial arts.  The only thing different is the catch phrase.
> I may or may not be correct.   But from what I've read so far about "natural laws", is that it applies to rules of nature concerning the human body and environment.
> So, as a example:  If I sweep an attackers legs out from under him, the "natural law" of gravity takes place, and the attacker falls to the floor.  And if I apply a wrist  lock or armbar to an attacker, the attackers limb is pushed or turned past the body's natural range of motion, and pain or injury to the limb occurs.
> Now these are very common principles in all martial arts.   So, I guess my question is; is there anything unique in Kosho techniques or principles, that is not also common in other martial arts?



You're exactly right!  Great post, Mr. Bishop.  

I don't think that there is anything unique in Kosho techniques or principles..  

What makes Kosho unique is that it uses principles from all martial arts.  Very few hard-style martial arts incorporate catch phrases from tai chi..  Similarly, very few soft-style martial arts incorporate catch phrases unique to kenpo.

One can take advantage of "catch phrases" to disable an opponent without touching them.  You may prefer to punch and strike, but it's a lot of fun to see someone trip all over themselves..  And I'm not talking chi strikes..

Here's a "natural law": people react when surprised.
Here's another "natural law": people don't like to get hurt.

Have you ever flinched, or recoiled from something?  Can you cause an attacker to flinch/recoil?  Does it require striking?  Does it require a chi strike to make an attacker flinch?  How can making the attacker flinch make self defense easier?  What is the most simple way to make someone flinch?

By answering these questions you'll be doing Kosho, even if the answer is an SKK form or a Kajukenbo combo .

Regards,

Ben


----------



## Danjo

Benjp said:


> You're exactly right! Great post, Mr. Bishop.
> 
> I don't think that there is anything unique in Kosho techniques or principles..
> 
> What makes Kosho unique is that it uses principles from all martial arts. Very few hard-style martial arts incorporate catch phrases from tai chi.. Similarly, very few soft-style martial arts incorporate catch phrases unique to kenpo.
> 
> One can take advantage of "catch phrases" to disable an opponent without touching them. You may prefer to punch and strike, but it's a lot of fun to see someone trip all over themselves.. And I'm not talking chi strikes..
> 
> Here's a "natural law": people react when surprised.
> Here's another "natural law": people don't like to get hurt.
> 
> Have you ever flinched, or recoiled from something? Can you cause an attacker to flinch/recoil? Does it require striking? Does it require a chi strike to make an attacker flinch? How can making the attacker flinch make self defense easier? What is the most simple way to make someone flinch?
> 
> By answering these questions you'll be doing Kosho, even if the answer is an SKK form or a Kajukenbo combo .
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Ben


 
So Jack Dempsey was Kosho too? Yowza! When he said to throw a feint up high to get the guy to move his hands up and the work his midsection, he was really stealing that concept from Kosho? I always thought he was boxing. Hmmmmm.....


----------



## Danjo

*Famous Concepts Of Kosho*​​
*What goes up must come down.*
*People dont like to get hurt.*
*People tend to flinch if you throw a punch at them.*
*Nature abhors a vacuum.*
*Objects in motion tend to stay in motion.*
*If I am cut, do I not bleed?*
*Would a rose by any other name smell just as sweet?*
*For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.*
*You can run but you cant hide.*
*What goes around comes around.*
*You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, and those are pretty good odds.*
*In space, no one can hear you scream.*


----------



## Benjp

Danjo said:


> So Jack Dempsey was Kosho too? Yowza! When he said to throw a feint up high to get the guy to move his hands up and the work his midsection, he was really stealing that concept from Kosho? I always thought he was boxing. Hmmmmm.....



He didn't steal it, he licensed its use from James Mitose..  The records are posted on the Tracy website .

Great example of Kosho!

Was Jack Dempsey reacting to an attack, or was he setting up his opponent?  

Kosho is preparatory--the goal is to influence the attacker's next movement instead of reacting to it.



			
				Danjo said:
			
		

> What goes up must come down.
> People don&#8217;t like to get hurt.
> People tend to flinch if you throw a punch at them.
> Nature abhors a vacuum.
> Objects in motion tend to stay in motion.
> If I am cut, do I not bleed?
> Would a rose by any other name smell just as sweet?
> For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
> You can run but you can&#8217;t hide.
> What goes around comes around.
> You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, and those are pretty good odds.
> In space, no one can hear you scream.



Good ones!  I found that the "rose by any other name" concept class was difficult .  You should find a kosho school just so you can experience our "in space, no one can hear you scream" sessions!

Ben


----------



## Danjo

Benjp said:


> He didn't steal it, he licensed its use from James Mitose.. The records are posted on the Tracy website .
> 
> Great example of Kosho!
> 
> Was Jack Dempsey reacting to an attack, or was he setting up his opponent?
> 
> Kosho is preparatory--the goal is to influence the attacker's next movement instead of reacting to it.
> 
> 
> 
> Good ones! I found that the "rose by any other name" concept class was difficult . You should find a kosho school just so you can experience our "in space, no one can hear you scream" sessions!
> 
> Ben


 
Dempsey was setting him up.

I left out the "sound of one hand clapping" concept.


----------



## koshonokenza

Danjo, I am glad my posts are to your likeing,my goal is to try to give you any info I can to the best of my ability. The first thing you need to realize is there is alot of unfourtunate inconsistancy regarding the information on Kosho Ryu. For instance Mitose wrote three books which were published. (In Search of Kenpo,What Is Self Defense and What Is True Self Defense) The later of the three books was written while Mitose Sensei was in jail and if you have the oppurtunity to read it you will see that Mitose was very stratigic in the way he said things. I think alot of this was due to the crime he was convicted of.

   Now regardless of weather Mitose was guilty or innocent of that crime really doesn't matter now! Everyone has their own opinion on that . The thing that many people don't realize is that Mitose had planned to write 9 more book's on the art of Kosho Ryu. What is True Self Defense was the first volume. Perhaps if Mitose had not died we would have a much greater insight into his Family art. But the bottom line is that he is dead and it has left alot of questions unanswered. Thomas Barros Mitose,Nimir Hassan(Terry Lee),Ray Arquilla,Euguene Sedano and Bruce Juchnik for that matter, did not spend enough time with Mitose to get all the answers that people in the Kempo world today want! 

     I chose to train under the direction of Hanshi Bruce Juchnik, not because of his ligitamicy, I could care less about that. Personally, I think what the man teaches is extremly valuble , Both on a physical spiritual and yes "Philisophical" level too. Again "and I need to stress this "I do not think Kosho Ryu is the only art that has these advanced concepts and superior martial stratagies. That is nonsense,I have had the oppurtunity to train with Teachers in other styles who can move and demonstrate the same understandings my teachers in Kosho can. 

   All art forms are a vehicle to a greater understanding of ones self. You Study Kajukenbo correct? This is a wonderful martial art with many great practitioners,they are all on a path to undertstand the teachings of Kajukenbo passed on from the founders. You have many questions about Kosho Ryu, this pleases me because I look for the oppourtunity to share the many wonderful things I have experienced being a student of this Art. I appologize if your past experience with regards to questions you wanted answered was vague or cryptic. I give you my word, any question you have that I have an answer to, I will give to you directly. Some questions however I may not be able to answer in a public domain as I have a responsability to my Teacher and fellow practitioners in my organization. If you would like my personal contact info please feel free to message me and I will give it to you. I may have a solution to many of your unanswered questions if you get in contact with me.

   John, I first need to make sure that you understand I am only here to help educate people to the best of my abilities as to what Kosho Ryu is all about.. I don't want you to think that what you are doing is in some way wrong,however questions posted by people in regards to curriculm in Kosho ryu need to be answered based on fact, and the fact is That Hanshi Juchnik did create a curriculum, in fact he has video's with a majority of that core curriculm (Kyu tapes 8th-3rd).And yes, studying the concepts and principles of Kosho Ryu is the most important aspect of the study of Kosho Ryu. Hanshi does give every student the freedom to do that,that is part of what makes it so easy to be a part of the SKSKI. I also don't feel that it is important you disclose your rank given to you by Juchnik Hanshi. Hanshi Ranks people based on many different catagories, and you are a very capable martial artist, but that doesn't excuse you or any one else from learning the complete art. 

   You are right when you say that many of the practitioners of Kosho Ryu do not know the entire curriculm, or can meet the requirements of each rank. Personally I find this embarrising. There really is not as much as some people would be lead to believe that is required to be learned at each rank. The problem is that if you are teaching a set curriculum and then try to throw in all the requirements in Kosho Ryu then it becomes to much for the student. If I am teaching Brazilian JiuJitsu for example and then throw in kodokan judo's curriculum to be memorized as well ,my students would be overwhelmed. Teaching Kosho Ryu concepts within an already exsisting style of martial arts is fine,however to better understand Kosho Ryu the curriculum that was established by Hanshi should be followed,seeing as he was put in position to " Do whatever he sees fit for Kosho Shorei Ryu"  by Mitose Sensei. 

   I appreciate your compliments in regard to my ability as a Kosho practitioner, please understand that I don't wish to attack your integrity as a representitive of Kosho Ryu, I think your a great guy John, but it is also my job as a representitive of the SKSKI and Bruce Juchnik Hanshi's to educate anyone that may be misinformed in certain area's of their studies.Hanshi, as you know ,is a very busy man and does not always have time to keep tabs on everything that is going on in everyones dojo.He is however starting to hold all instructors accountable for the material they are required to know at their rank, this includes kata,history,concepts and theories,Bunkai and basics.Hopefully this will help the problem we have with students not knowing what they should at each rank.

   I wish you continued growth in your studies, and hope that both you and your family are well. 

   Yours in the Arts
 Tony DiSarro


----------



## Carol

Thanks for all the time you have spent explaining Kosho, Mr. Disarro.  :asian:


----------



## BlackCatBonz

John Bishop said:


> 1.*I guess some of us are also wondering what techniques and/or principles may be unique to Kosho?*
> 
> *2.In my research of various martial arts systems, I've found that some like to use "catch phrases" to describe some principle that is in play in various techniques. Phrases like "gravitational marriage" in EPAK, and "natural laws" in Kosho. After close examination of what these phrases mean, I usually end up finding that they are common principles found in most martial arts. The only thing different is the catch phrase*.
> 
> 3.I may or may not be correct. But from what I've read so far about "natural laws", *is that it applies to rules of nature concerning the human body and environment*.
> So, as a example: If I sweep an attackers legs out from under him, the "natural law" of gravity takes place, and the attacker falls to the floor. *4.And if I apply a wrist lock or armbar to an attacker, the attackers limb is pushed or turned past the body's natural range of motion, and pain or injury to the limb occurs*.
> 
> Now these are very common principles in all martial arts. So, I guess my question is; is there anything unique in Kosho techniques or principles, that is not also common in other martial arts?


 


BlackCatBonz said:


> Danjo, here is a little quote from Yukiyoshi Takamura of Shindo Yoshin Ryu;
> 
> 
> 
> How did you come to reorganize the traditional curriculum of Shindo Yoshin-ryu?
> 
> That is a very complex question. Let me see if I can explain it clearly. Any martial art is really a set of concepts and ideas. _Physical techniques are important but not the defining elements of a style_. I have heard some people say that this is not true, that they have secret techniques. So what! I bet another style has techniques that are similar to their secret techniques. I would guess that what they actually have is more correctly described as secret concepts. _All jujutsu traditions do similar joint locks because the joints in all human beings operate in the same way. There really are no new joint locks. Its how they perform the locks that differentiate the styles._ The concepts used in the application of the locks are what are important. These aspects are what make one tradition different from another. They are often the okuden.
> When I came to America I discovered that many traditional techniques were simply not applicable to the realities facing my new students. Jujutsu techniques in their original form were not intended to address these modern situations. When I first started teaching, students began to ask me how I would deal with a boxer, or with a karateka and so on. At first I was surprised because I was not sure that I had the answers. I had to carefully examine this. I realized that the answers were right in front of me. I was busy focusing on jujutsu techniques when it was jujutsu concepts that were the solution. Techniques did not matter because they were guided by concepts. New techniques could be devised to address new realities while embracing the time honored concepts that form the arts core. This would not be abandoning the art. This would allow the art to maintain its effectiveness and relevance to a new generation and era.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This in a nutshell describes the study of kosho.....quite simple really.
> All of the other stuff is icing that we get to add to our cake.
> Some folks tend to not look at kata like something special......but it really does bring something.
> 
> *Traditional arts do not always traditionally teach the art from a catalogue of techniques*......you may learn a few to develop a feel for a concept or principle that is directly applicable to all techniques.
> Unless you understand that......a student wouldn't traditionaly move on to the okuden study of an art because they don't _get_ it.
Click to expand...

 
John, you make some great points.
I've numbered the ones I would like to address to make it easier to all reading.

1. I would say that principles being universal in nature are not uniquely Kosho. 
I know that phrase in and of itself seems somewhat like double-speak because it sounds like I am saying no art is unique.
The emphasis is on which principles are concentrated upon to define the ryu.
I would like to direct your attention back to the Takamura quote; I have highlighted the portions of the quote applicable to this discussion.
There are no techniques unique to kosho.....we do kote gaeshi the same way they do it in yanagi ryu, the wrist is flexed and turned laterally causing a shift in weight.
The difference is _how _we get there.
What concept or principle we use to apply the lock is what makes our approach different from say aikido.
Is it a secret concept? nope. But I would be willing to bet the farm, if I showed you, it would be a bit different from how you do it.......because you might use the same concept or principle but in another application.
So there you have it.....1 technique, 1 principle, or maybe several principles working together.

*"Always move twice, go back to where you were last."*

This is one of the main principles in Kosho. 
What does it mean? 
exactly what it says.

2. This is very true. But that doesn't take away from the fact that different art's have different flavours. It's these flavours that create the differences we see in virtually the same technique.
When I throw someone, it looks different from how a silat guy might throw someone, but the guy getting thrown still winds up in the same spot.

3. Yes. But now we have to see if we agree on what would be considered a law.
In Kosho, movement follows the head.......some guys will disagree. But for our art, that is an important concept.
The body has a certain way of twisting, bending, folding and reacting based on anatomy and physiology. This is part of the natural law we talk about......nothing mystical.
Fighting is unnatural (i know, more disagreement), so, we study natural movement and train our bodies to move correctly to evade and use our opponents natural response against them.....again, simple principle of "ju".
Understanding how the eyes see in conflict is another kosho concept......do you do it?
maybe.......cant say for sure, but we have a specific set of rules governing engagement based on the rudiments of kenjutsu as they apply to timing and distance. These same rules directly apply to the empty hand arts. Once again, no real techniques per se, but rather a set of rules applied to drills to teach you when and where to move.

4. Pain or injury is not always neccessary for compliance. The body is a biological machine that is covered with buttons and several levers. 
Kosho is how we work those buttons and levers........just the same as you do in your art.


----------



## Kosho Gakkusei

A key principle in Kosho would also be the use of the Octagon in escaping being the fist thing you do.  I like the way Shawn puts it - tactical repositioning.  This is not necessarily just for runing away but if you want to hit someone it's better if you first escape from or evade the other person's attack or center.  The same applies to blocks & throws as well as getting out of grabs or locks.  What's studied is using each angle with attacks from every angle and achieving 90 degree positioning to avoid taking on body mass and create a timing advantage.

_Don Flatt


----------



## Kosho-Monk

Hi Tony,

First let me say that I don't feel attacked and I am quite comfortable with my integrity.  I believe I have always stated that my comments come from the way Kosho is practiced at my dojo - which is different then other dojos.  But I do appreciate you stating that you're not attacking my integrity.

I do know there is a curriculum and I have all of the kyu tapes and understand what Hanshi requires.  I can't do all of that but continue to work on it.  If I don't get it all in this life, then perhaps I can keep working on it in the next one.

I was thinking that perhaps there is much confusion around requirements and what to practice because the studens are given so much freedom.  And since rank is awarded without regards to curriculum I think that can add to the confusion as well.

I'm not complaining though.  I like the way things are structured because it gives each individual the ability to explore and grow in the areas that are calling them.  I like being able to work on sword for a while and then switching to escrima and then to katas.  I would never follow a dogmatic way of doing things because it goes against what I believe.

Plus I have heard Hanshi say many times that we must break out of our "box".  For me sticking with a set curriculum can create boxes and stunt our growth as martial artists.

I don't think students who are missing lots of the curriculum is embarrassing.  I think as long as they are continuing to train and are progressing on their path, then that's good.  Would you agree that one who is studying martial arts without predjudice is studying Kosho?

Or maybe I can ask the question differently... what qualifies as the study of Kosho?

Another thought that just came to mind about curriculum is that a strict curriculum creates a system.  And Hanshi has stated many times that Kosho is not a system of martial arts.  I view the curriculum as a means to a goal.  But certainly not the goal itself.

My simple equation is this:  set curriculum = box, unlimited studies = unlimited growth.

Maybe you could answer this question for me, too.  About ranking.  I know that lots of Kosho students don't like to say what their dan ranking is.... why?  I'm proud of my rank and continue to work hard every day to earn it again.  When someone asks me what my rank is in Kosho I tell them.  And usually when I say it, it goes something like this, "Hanshi has awarded me with a second degree black belt in Kosho.  I'm not sure I really deserve the rank, but perhaps Hanshi sees something in me that I don't."  I was even asked to be one of the shihans a couple years ago.  I'm not because of personal reasons I won't go into here.  But I was honored just to be asked.

As for Hanshi - I think most people know that his skills and knowledge surpass that of most other martial artists.  The guy is, IMO, way beyond the ordinary level of martial arts.  I'm not sure how is mind can contain all that he knows, but in many was I must say I'm jealous.  I have a hard enough time remember to pick up milk on my way home!

Anyway, great conversation.  I enjoy talking about martial arts more than any other topic.

Tony, I hope you and your family is well, too.  I look foward to seeing you again in the future.  


Time to veiw the rank tapes again!


-John


----------



## Danjo

Kosho-Monk said:


> Hi Tony,
> 
> First let me say that I don't feel attacked and I am quite comfortable with my integrity. I believe I have always stated that my comments come from the way Kosho is practiced at my dojo - which is different then other dojos. But I do appreciate you stating that you're not attacking my integrity.
> 
> I do know there is a curriculum and I have all of the kyu tapes and understand what Hanshi requires. I can't do all of that but continue to work on it. If I don't get it all in this life, then perhaps I can keep working on it in the next one.
> 
> I was thinking that perhaps there is much confusion around requirements and what to practice because the studens are given so much freedom. And since rank is awarded without regards to curriculum I think that can add to the confusion as well.
> 
> I'm not complaining though. I like the way things are structured because it gives each individual the ability to explore and grow in the areas that are calling them. I like being able to work on sword for a while and then switching to escrima and then to katas. I would never follow a dogmatic way of doing things because it goes against what I believe.
> 
> Plus I have heard Hanshi say many times that we must break out of our "box". For me sticking with a set curriculum can create boxes and stunt our growth as martial artists.
> 
> I don't think students who are missing lots of the curriculum is embarrassing. I think as long as they are continuing to train and are progressing on their path, then that's good. Would you agree that one who is studying martial arts without predjudice is studying Kosho?
> 
> Or maybe I can ask the question differently... what qualifies as the study of Kosho?
> 
> Another thought that just came to mind about curriculum is that a strict curriculum creates a system. And Hanshi has stated many times that Kosho is not a system of martial arts. I view the curriculum as a means to a goal. But certainly not the goal itself.
> 
> My simple equation is this: set curriculum = box, unlimited studies = unlimited growth.
> 
> Maybe you could answer this question for me, too. About ranking. I know that lots of Kosho students don't like to say what their dan ranking is.... why? I'm proud of my rank and continue to work hard every day to earn it again. When someone asks me what my rank is in Kosho I tell them. And usually when I say it, it goes something like this, "Hanshi has awarded me with a second degree black belt in Kosho. I'm not sure I really deserve the rank, but perhaps Hanshi sees something in me that I don't." I was even asked to be one of the shihans a couple years ago. I'm not because of personal reasons I won't go into here. But I was honored just to be asked.
> 
> As for Hanshi - I think most people know that his skills and knowledge surpass that of most other martial artists. The guy is, IMO, way beyond the ordinary level of martial arts. I'm not sure how is mind can contain all that he knows, but in many was I must say I'm jealous. I have a hard enough time remember to pick up milk on my way home!
> 
> Anyway, great conversation. I enjoy talking about martial arts more than any other topic.
> 
> Tony, I hope you and your family is well, too. I look foward to seeing you again in the future.
> 
> 
> Time to veiw the rank tapes again!
> 
> 
> -John


 
There is a pretty big danger in this thinking as well. The freedom you're talking about can also be used as a cover for unwillingness to learn something new. "It's all Kosho as long as it's approached with an open mind" sounds nice, but it lacks any real bite.

The advantage to having a set curriculum through the intitial black belt level is that you know that the student has sufficiently mastered the concepts that you are trying to teach. Techniques and forms are physicallly codified manifestations of whatever concepts your art is teaching. Each belt level will have certain requirements that embody those concepts and must be minimally mastered before progression to the next level. This is not a barrier to one that wants to go further in their learning and creativity. Sijo Emperado has always told his instructors to be creative, but it doesn't mean that they are allowed to free style the whole system and call it Kajukenbo. You have to have a solid base to work from. Creativity comes after you have successfully mastered the established basics.

This is why I was wondering whether Kosho Ryu was merely a philosophy like JKD, or whether it was an art that could be taught and learned. The question has been answered pretty well in a few of the posts I think.

It sounds to me like learning the actual curriculum of an art would be an easier and more efficient way of insuring that this was done properly than rearranging another system like SKK to try and meet the same conceptual needs. It sounds like you are seeing Kosho Ryu as more of a philosophy. If that's the case then fine, but I don't see how one can achieve rank in a philosophy.


----------



## Kosho Gakkusei

Danjo,

You bring some good points up about the differences between a system and philosophy.  I think Tony Disarro answered how that relates to Kosho a few pages back with this post.



koshonokenza said:


> This post is most directly aimed toward answering many of the excellent questions posted by Danjo.* Lets start by explaining that "Kosho Ryu Kempo" is a martial art style with a set minimum required curriculum to Black Belt ,regardless of what other people may be saying.*This was set by Hanshi Bruce Juchnik himself over 20 years ago! Weather people follow or are ranked in accordance to these minimum requirements is a whole other issue.. *"Kosho Shorei Ryu" is a philosophical self study,not a martial art!* I think many people making posts here are confused about this.


 
I agree with your thoughts about a set curriculum and it's benefits.  It sounds like that is the approach followed by Tony but not by John Evans.  John has adapted his former SKK training to fit Kosho Shorei Ryu's philosophies.  Personally, I don't train any of the Self Defense Techniques or Katas from my previous art which was a blended derivative of Tracy Kenpo & Aikido.  I don't even regard my previous rank.  To me coming into Kosho marked a new begining in my training, even my approach to basics such as stances, blocks, and strikes are completely different.  I've seen both John & Tony in action and what they both do looks like Kosho to me.

_Don Flatt


----------



## Danjo

Right. I still don't see how someone can have rank in something described as "*Kosho Shorei Ryu" is a philosophical self study,not a martial art"*

If it's not a martial art, then how can one hold rank in it?



Kosho Gakkusei said:


> Danjo,
> 
> You bring some good points up about the differences between a system and philosophy. I think Tony Disarro answered how that relates to Kosho a few pages back with this post.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with your thoughts about a set curriculum and it's benefits. It sounds like that is the approach followed by Tony but not by John Evans. John has adapted his former SKK training to fit Kosho Shorei Ryu's philosophies. Personally, I don't train any of the Self Defense Techniques or Katas from my previous art which was a blended derivative of Tracy Kenpo & Aikido. I don't even regard my previous rank. To me coming into Kosho marked a new begining in my training, even my approach to basics such as stances, blocks, and strikes are completely different. I've seen both John & Tony in action and what they both do looks like Kosho to me.
> 
> _Don Flatt


----------



## BlackCatBonz

Would having a PhD in philosophy be considered some sort of recognition of a person's acheivement in the study of said subject?


----------



## Danjo

BlackCatBonz said:


> Would having a PhD in philosophy be considered some sort of recognition of a person's acheivement in the study of said subject?


 
Sure. But you don't get a black belt in philosophy last time I checked, you get an academic degree.


----------



## BlackCatBonz

You seem to be very fixated on the black belt.
The whole dan rank system was to denote _knowledge_ and _skill_.
sometimes we even call them degrees.
1st degree, 2nd degree.....
I think you're just nitpicking now........once again showing that you don't really care. You're more interested in just continuing a line of questioning to observe what you might see as dissension among the ranks.

If you want a handbook with the requirements laid out......send $20 to Bruce Juchnik.

Hanshi has the final say as to who gets rank and who does not.


----------



## Kosho Gakkusei

Danjo said:


> Sure. But you don't get a black belt in philosophy last time I checked, you get an academic degree.


 
Great point!

Since you drew the parallel to Jeet Kune Do.  What about that?  Isn't that a philosophy to make your martial art better?  How does one go about grading a philosophy with martial implications?  Because people will want to learn it in a martial arts setting from a qualified teacher - so rank will be necessary as part of a martial philosophy.  I'm not sure but I believe that Bruce Lee did give out rank in both Jun Fan & Jeet Kune Do.

_Don Flatt


----------



## Kosho Gakkusei

BlackCatBonz said:


> Would having a PhD in philosophy be considered some sort of recognition of a person's acheivement in the study of said subject?


 


			
				BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> The whole dan rank system was to denote _knowledge_ and _skill_.
> sometimes we even call them degrees.
> 1st degree, 2nd degree.....


 
I get it now!!!

That could be a topic for another thread.  There are various academic degrees based on the level of study just as there are various degrees you can achieve in the Martial Arts.

I would say rank acheived in Martial Arts is equivalent to degrees achieved academically and vice versa.  It all relates to study and knowledge.  I would say Martial Arts provide hands on experience, a necessary component.  Some fields require internship before they authorize you to practice.  Even then stepping in and doing it in real time is another story.

_Don Flatt


----------



## BlackCatBonz

It's hard to describe for someone the way a traditional Japanese martial art works.
It has nothing to do with dan ranks and black belts.....and this seems to be a hard concept for some to get their head around.

Traditionally, these arts were taught at 3 levels.
shoden &#21021;&#20253; - this is the first transmission phase that introduces the student to the basics of the art, drills, throws, locks and strikes.
chuden &#20013;&#20253; - this phase introduces more advanced principles and techniques.
Finally:
Okuden &#22885;&#20253; - These are the secret teachings of a ryu. This is where all of the principles and _philosophies_ are revealed to a student.
the student usually must master the first 2 levels before they are intiated to receive this knowledge. This goes way beyond black belt which is really barely shoden teachings.

These upper teachings define the ryu, it is also the reason you won't here lots of people talking about it. 
If that is hard to get your head around, then you really don't have much understanding of the japanese martial arts in the traditional sense.

Full mastery certification of an art usually means that the student understands the physical as well as the philosophical aspects of an art......this is calle Menkyo Kaiden.
This is the certification that H. Okazaki gave to Sig Kufferath, who in turn passed it on to Tony Janovich.
Mitose Gave Bruce Juchnik Menkyo Kaiden because he probably felt that his physical skills were at a high enough level. Advanced teachings do not require constant re-hashing of basics, but rather the application of the advanced principles to those basics.

The Physical aspect of the ryu takes a back seat to the philosophical aspects at the high levels........because these teachings define the physical art.


----------



## Kosho Gakkusei

Kosho Gakkusei said:


> Great point!
> 
> Since you drew the parallel to Jeet Kune Do. What about that? Isn't that a philosophy to make your martial art better? How does one go about grading a philosophy with martial implications? Because people will want to learn it in a martial arts setting from a qualified teacher - so rank will be necessary as part of a martial philosophy. I'm not sure but I believe that Bruce Lee did give out rank in both Jun Fan & Jeet Kune Do.
> 
> _Don Flatt


 
I would just like to add to that thought.  The last time I checked the philosophy Jeet Kune Do was not taught at academic institutions and there were no Bachelor of Jeet Kune Do degrees.  I believe the way Bruce Lee did it was Level 1, Level 2, & Level 3.  I'm not sure if Level 1 or 2 signified being allowed to teach.

_Don Flatt


----------



## Danjo

BlackCatBonz said:


> It's hard to describe for someone the way a traditional Japanese martial art works.
> It has nothing to do with dan ranks and black belts.....and this seems to be a hard concept for some to get their head around.
> 
> Traditionally, these arts were taught at 3 levels.
> shoden &#21021;&#20253; - this is the first transmission phase that introduces the student to the basics of the art, drills, throws, locks and strikes.
> chuden &#20013;&#20253; - this phase introduces more advanced principles and techniques.
> Finally:
> Okuden &#22885;&#20253; - These are the secret teachings of a ryu. This is where all of the principles and _philosophies_ are revealed to a student.
> the student usually must master the first 2 levels before they are intiated to receive this knowledge. This goes way beyond black belt which is really barely shoden teachings.
> 
> These upper teachings define the ryu, it is also the reason you won't here lots of people talking about it.
> If that is hard to get your head around, then you really don't have much understanding of the japanese martial arts in the traditional sense.
> 
> Full mastery certification of an art usually means that the student understands the physical as well as the philosophical aspects of an art......this is calle Menkyo Kaiden.
> This is the certification that H. Okazaki gave to Sig Kufferath, who in turn passed it on to Tony Janovich.
> Mitose Gave Bruce Juchnik Menkyo Kaiden because he probably felt that his physical skills were at a high enough level. Advanced teachings do not require constant re-hashing of basics, but rather the application of the advanced principles to those basics.
> 
> The Physical aspect of the ryu takes a back seat to the philosophical aspects at the high levels........because these teachings define the physical art.


 
Hmmmm....

Well, first off, regardless of whether "Traditional Japanese MAs" gave out Dan and Kyu rankings, they certainly have done so since Kano introduced the concept with Judo. Mitose also seems to have used that ranking system when he was in Hawaii. In Mitose's case, he seemed to follow the traditional meaning of belt ranking which was for mastery of a martial art, not a philosophy.

We can debate the notion of whether one could have a black belt in philosophy or not, but we would be arguing for an exception rather than the commonly understood rule. In the martial arts, the belts are awarded for skill in said art. Is there more than mere physical skill that goes into ranking? Yes, in some arts, no in others. In Judo or BJJ, the answer is "no". You are awarded points etc. or are judged on your abilty to beat people in contest period. In other arts, they want you to understand things intellectually as well as physically. They may want you to understand the history of your art as well as have the ability to intellectualize why things are done the way they are etc. Spiritually, the martial arts have chosen enlightenment via the physical path rather than the academic path. In other words, the longer you do it, the deeper your understanding is. It's why people who are physically past their prime are still considered superior. They've seen and done more and have a deeper knowledge as a result.

Bruse Lee gave out various levels of certification so that he could have some quality control over who was teaching using his methodolgy. I don't believe that he gave out green, brown or black belts in JKD though.

It seems to me that there would be a qualitative differnce between someone that was ranked as a black belt in Kosho Ryu Kempo and one who was ranked in Kosho Shorei Ryu that did their own art in terms of embodying the concepts that were trying to be taught.

It sounds like the reason for allowing people to not learn the curriculum is merely to expand his organizational base as wide as possible. If he actually required them to learn his art, it wouldn't grow nearly as fast or as wide.


----------



## kelly keltner

Carol Kaur said:


> Folks, please keep the discussion on-topic.
> 
> Is there a curriculum to Kosho or not?  The responses conflict.


Kosho has a curiculum however, it's pretty obvious not everyone in the art has to follow it.
Rank and position as it pertains to curiculum is not standard in kosho.
Let's just say it's all kinda fluid.

kk


----------



## Carol

kelly keltner said:


> Kosho has a curiculum however, it's pretty obvious not everyone in the art has to follow it.
> Rank and position as it pertains to curiculum is not standard in kosho.
> Let's just say it's all kinda fluid.
> 
> kk



:asian: Thanks KK. 

That's sounding even more like Silat.  There is martial and cultural material, the blend of which may vary by teacher.  What is taught when is something that also varies, depending on class or even the student, but it flows together.

That sounds loosey-goose in description but...in application, its quite rigorous.  The student isn't braced by a rigid belt structure.


----------



## Kosho-Monk

> Kosho has a curiculum however, it's pretty obvious not everyone in the art has to follow it.
> Rank and position as it pertains to curiculum is not standard in kosho.
> Let's just say it's all kinda fluid.
> 
> kk


 

Exactly.  And I don't think that's a bad thing or anything to be embarrassed about.  Kosho has some great practitioners in the ranks.


-John


----------



## kelly keltner

Kosho-Monk said:


> Exactly.  And I don't think that's a bad thing or anything to be embarrassed about.  Kosho has some great practitioners in the ranks.
> 
> 
> -John


Your right, it is nothing to be embarrased about.
However, tightening the standards would not be a bad thing either.
If one person is held accountable for core material for advancement, so should everyone.

kk


----------



## Kosho-Monk

> Your right, it is nothing to be embarrased about.
> However, tightening the standards would not be a bad thing either.
> If one person is held accountable for core material for advancement, so should everyone.
> 
> kk


 
I can agree to that.  Would seem fair to either hold everyone accountable or no one.  

For me, I am in favor of a smaller list of required material and let certain studies be optional.  


-John


----------



## kelly keltner

Kosho-Monk said:


> I can agree to that.  Would seem fair to either hold everyone accountable or no one.
> 
> For me, I am in favor of a smaller list of required material and let certain studies be optional.
> 
> 
> -John


Yeah I could see that.
But it ain't the way Bruce does buisiness.
It's one of the reasons, among many I tend to keep to myself these days.

kk


----------



## Kosho-Monk

In my town a lot of people don't really want to learn about shiatsu, sword, etc.  They would rather get a good workout that makes them sweat and learn some solid self-defense techniques.  If I don't give the students what they are wanting they will find it at another school.

That doesn't mean if they want to sit around and talk they get to do that.  I attract students that like to workout and become healthier... not something you see in all Kosho schools.

One of my personal philosophies is - if you have a heart attack at 50 you probably won't care that you can beat someone up without barely moving.


-John


----------



## kelly keltner

Kosho-Monk said:


> In my town a lot of people don't really want to learn about shiatsu, sword, etc.  They would rather get a good workout that makes them sweat and learn some solid self-defense techniques.  If I don't give the students what they are wanting they will find it at another school.
> 
> That doesn't mean if they want to sit around and talk they get to do that.  I attract students that like to workout and become healthier... not something you see in all Kosho schools.
> 
> One of my personal philosophies is - if you have a heart attack at 50 you probably won't care that you can beat someone up without barely moving.
> 
> 
> -John


I agree totally, but my concern has always been for the accountability of material end. So that if one person is not ranked for lack of knowledge in an area. That he/she is not held back while others are promoted for having the same or even a larger lack of knoweldge.
So much for keeping to myself.

kk


----------



## Kosho-Monk

> I agree totally, but my concern has always been for the accountability of material end. So that if one person is not ranked for lack of knowledge in an area. That he/she is not held back while others are promoted for having the same or even a larger lack of knoweldge.
> So much for keeping to myself.
> 
> kk


 
In my school I have a small curriculum of required material for rank promotions.  You must not only memorize but also be able to perform to a certain level of proficiency.  Students who wish to learn extra things can take private lessons, sign up for in-house seminars or even sometimes just ask me between classes.

This seems to work well and keeps things running smoothly.  It also helps me in choosing students who can be leaders in my school.  The ones who work harder are the ones who will be covering my classes when I can't be there.  And everyone in my school accepts that as a good way to do it.

I have nearly 100 students in a very small town.  And by this Fall I believe I will break the 100 mark.  Not bad for being open fulltime for less than one year, I think.

Take care,
John


P.S.  Kelly, please don't keep to yourself.  I would really like to hear (read) your thoughts about Kosho.


----------



## BlackCatBonz

kelly keltner said:


> I agree totally, but my concern has always been for the accountability of material end. So that if one person is not ranked for lack of knowledge in an area. That he/she is not held back while others are promoted for having the same or even a larger lack of knoweldge.
> So much for keeping to myself.
> 
> kk


 
This is where I agree with Kelly.
I am a stickler for having an order of operations and a reason for something.
I am looking at the student handbook right now and I don't see anything that is unacheivable for a hard working student.

I've had people tell me before that it would be impossible to learn everything in it.
I would say impossible for someone that doesnt feel like putting in the time.
The problem with the handbook is most of the teachers out there don't know the material.......and there are some of us that do, some more than others.

I think the handbook should represent the minimum standard for advancement in grade.
I keep mine in a binder with a pile of notes that i still add to occasionally.


----------



## Kosho-Monk

> This is where I agree with Kelly.
> I am a stickler for having an order of operations and a reason for something.
> I am looking at the student handbook right now and I don't see anything that is unacheivable for a hard working student.
> 
> I've had people tell me before that it would be impossible to learn everything in it.
> I would say impossible for someone that doesnt feel like putting in the time.
> The problem with the handbook is most of the teachers out there don't know the material.......and there are some of us that do, some more than others.
> 
> I think the handbook should represent the minimum standard for advancement in grade.
> I keep mine in a binder with a pile of notes that i still add to occasionally.


 

The handbook might be fine for some schools, but not all.  I believe firmly that I would put myself out of business if I required all of that of my students.

I have to ask what is really important to teach students and what is something that can wait until a later time.

I guess for me it boils down to what my goals and the goals of my students are.  The Natural Laws of Kosho guide us.... not the curriculum.


-John


----------



## kelly keltner

Kosho-Monk said:


> The handbook might be fine for some schools, but not all.  I believe firmly that I would put myself out of business if I required all of that of my students.
> 
> I have to ask what is really important to teach students and what is something that can wait until a later time.
> 
> I guess for me it boils down to what my goals and the goals of my students are.  The Natural Laws of Kosho guide us.... not the curriculum.
> 
> 
> -John


The problem is when"The Natural Laws of Kosho guide us." The rank structure tends to be abused. Folks who put in a lot of work tend to get upset when others get pushed ahead, sometimes for political reasons. It has happened to more than one in the system.

kk


----------



## Kosho-Monk

> The problem is when"The Natural Laws of Kosho guide us." The rank structure tends to be abused. Folks who put in a lot of work tend to get upset when others get pushed ahead, sometimes for political reasons. It has happened to more than one in the system.
> 
> kk


 

That brings up an interesting point... is Kosho the study of katas and memorization of other information or is it the study of Natural Law and learning how to apply the knowledge gained from that study into one's life?  Is Kosho the study of how to beat people up or is the study of how to create peace in one's life?

Or perhaps Kosho is just study.  And what the students studies depends on what their calling is.  And perhaps their interests change, and keep changing, over time thus creating a well-rounded practitioner after many many years.


-John


----------



## Carol

Kosho-Monk said:


> The handbook might be fine for some schools, but not all.  I *believe firmly that I would put myself out of business if I required all of that of my students.*



That speaks volumes.


----------



## sksk

For any one interested Shihan Tony DiSarro will be doing A Kosho Ryu Kempo clinic on the curriculum and concepts of Kosho. I have the dates, times and location in the events section. Any one whom is close by is welcome to attend it could help answer some of the questions that have been brought up.

All the best 

George


----------



## Kosho-Monk

Carol,

Please explain your comment?  Thanks.


-John


----------



## kelly keltner

Kosho-Monk said:


> In my school I have a small curriculum of required material for rank promotions.  You must not only memorize but also be able to perform to a certain level of proficiency.  Students who wish to learn extra things can take private lessons, sign up for in-house seminars or even sometimes just ask me between classes.
> 
> This seems to work well and keeps things running smoothly.  It also helps me in choosing students who can be leaders in my school.  The ones who work harder are the ones who will be covering my classes when I can't be there.  And everyone in my school accepts that as a good way to do it.
> 
> I have nearly 100 students in a very small town.  And by this Fall I believe I will break the 100 mark.  Not bad for being open fulltime for less than one year, I think.
> 
> Take care,
> John
> 
> 
> P.S.  Kelly, please don't keep to yourself.  I would really like to hear (read) your thoughts about Kosho.


John I have re-read your post a couple of times. I truly appreciate that you would like to hear (read) my opinions about Kosho. I have already made my thoughts known more than I problably should have. With that I will take my leave and go back into keyboard retirement and keep to myself. Kosho can be a beautiful art if the practitioner allows it. Keep studying guys it can only enhance everything you do.

kk


----------



## Kosho Gakkusei

Hello John!
I'm glad to hear things are going well at your school.  I hope to visit you again soon.



Kosho-Monk said:


> That brings up an interesting point... is Kosho the study of katas and memorization of other information or is it the study of Natural Law and learning how to apply the knowledge gained from that study into one's life? Is Kosho the study of how to beat people up or is the study of how to create peace in one's life?


 
This is my opinion, not that it matters much, but my answer to both of your questions is that Kosho is all of these things.  Personally, I think that anyone that truly wants to study Kosho would want to learn all of the art -the katas, the weaponry, swordsmanship, calligraphy, etc.  That's not to say that a person can not study part of the art but then they are not studying the full art just the portion that is their preference.

The beauty of Kosho principles and philosophy is their universal nature.  They can be applied to all arts.  The idea of all the different studies is to ingrain the principles by looking for them and applying them to the different areas of study as well as other martial arts (in _What is True Self Defense?,_ Mitose stated that the Kosho Monks would study all MA) leading ultimately every area of your life.  One could very well take the Kosho principles and apply them to any art.  For example: One could apply the principles to wing chung techniques and in the end they would be doing a form of kosho that retains a wing chung flavor or a form of wing chung with kosho flavor. They could do that. But by extracting what they want from kosho rather than embracing the full art, doesn't that display a retention of prejudice?  Doesn't retaining prejudice violate the core of kosho philosophy?



Kosho-Monk said:


> Or perhaps Kosho is just study. And what the students studies depends on what their calling is. And perhaps their interests change, and keep changing, over time thus creating a well-rounded practitioner after many many years.


 
That is the goal of Kosho.  That is a beautiful peice of philosophy and in principle right and true but unfortunately in application it could fall miserably short.  In reality people need instruction & accountability to learn lessons they don't want to and to break down their prejudices.  A teacher and a way to follow, a path to go down, or even a curricullum are essential.

Just my thoughts and opinions as this is a discussion board where people can voice their opinions, right or wrong.  Again, I don't speak for all of Kosho - I suggest you ask Hanshi if you really want to know.

_Don Flatt


----------



## sksk

I believe we have established that there is a curriculum for Kosho that teachers and students are expected to know and teach. If one doe's not have that info than it is their responsibility to seek out the knowledge and know the minimum standard of that particular material. We must remember that what is taught by Hanshi Juchnik in a seminar represents a small portion of the kosho curriculum and that Hanshi is teaching for a general audience, some of which may never even have heard of Kosho. Also Seminars are not they same, as classroom drills and practices. different goals and aims. Learning any martial art is a responsibility. A responsibility to ourselves, our teachers, and our students. We all need to remember that.

All the best

George


----------



## Kosho Gakkusei

sksk said:


> Learning any martial art is a responsibility. A responsibility to ourselves, our teachers, and our students. We all need to remember that.


 
I couldn't have said it better.  Unfortunately, people are lazy and that's why standards are needed.

_Don Flatt


----------



## Kosho-Monk

> Unfortunately, people are lazy and that's why standards are needed.


 
I could argue that the lazy ones are the students that simply follow along and never think for themselves.  It's pretty easy just to do what you're told and never question why things are done a certain way.  Of course, not everyone is cut out to be a leader.



> If one doe's not have that info than it is their responsibility to seek out the knowledge and know the minimum standard of that particular material.


 
The teacher's job is to teach.  If there is required material than the teacher has the responsibility to inform the students and teach the required material during classes.  And no student should be promoted without the understanding of the material required.

Can you imagine going to college and them telling you after you graduated what the required subjects were and now it was time to learn them for your degree?  Sounds kind of foolish... doesn't it?  And when you were there, in class, what were you learning anyway?  Why didn't the teacher teach the required stuff?  

I don't promote my students unless they are ready.  I believe schools/teachers that promote students before they are ready tend to do so because they are wanting some kind of financial gain.


I have more to say on this but I need to go now.  I look foward to chatting about this.


-John


----------



## Kosho-Monk

> Also Seminars are not the same, as classroom drills and practices. different goals and aims.


 
I agree with this.  So, why then would someone who doesn't understand the drills and practices of a Kosho class (not seminar) be given a license to teach and authority to promote if they don't have this stuff?  Why give (charge a $300 fee for, actually) the license and then require them to know their stuff?

It's the same as someone saying you can be a shihan if you just pay $500.  Then, after you get the rank/title, they say "and now you have to learn all this stuff so you don't look foolish."  Isn't that backwards?

Can you imagine if a doctor was given a license to practice medicine before actually having the knowledge to help patients properly?  Or how about a high school teacher getting in front of the classroom without having been taught the subect?




> The beauty of Kosho principles and philosophy is their universal nature. They can be applied to all arts. The idea of all the different studies is to ingrain the principles by looking for them and applying them to the different areas of study as well as other martial arts (in _What is True Self Defense?,_ Mitose stated that the Kosho Monks would study all MA) leading ultimately every area of your life. One could very well take the Kosho principles and apply them to any art. For example: One could apply the principles to wing chung techniques and in the end they would be doing a form of kosho that retains a wing chung flavor or a form of wing chung with kosho flavor. They could do that. But by extracting what they want from kosho rather than embracing the full art, doesn't that display a retention of prejudice? Doesn't retaining prejudice violate the core of kosho philosophy?


 
Not studying something doesn't mean that you're being prejudice - in the bad way.  Saying to others that you wouldn't study something because it sucks would be showing prejudice.  If you don't eat a certain food you are "retaining prejudice" based on the fact you don't care for it.  Is that really so bad?  Well, maybe it is if you eat only unhealthy food and end up getting really fat.

According to the Kai website, Kosho or Kempo for that matter is the study of understanding one's self.  If you understand that your life is leading you in the direction of a focused practice - then you should do it.  Spreading yourself out so thin that you can't really become proficient in any aspect is foolish, I think.

I view it as a jack-of-all-trades and master of none.


Let's go back to the curriculum of Kosho.  What did Mitose teach as a curriculum?  He certainly didn't teach all of the 27 forms in the Kata no Michi text.  Or the numerous sword katas that are taught.  In fact, not a single form in the Kata no Michi book is a Kosho only form that comes from Mitose or earlier.  The Kosho only forms were created by Hanshi Juchnik.  And we certainly can't claim them as being part of a 750 year old art... right?

So what is the art that's 750 years old?  Certainly not what Mitose taught.  I think most people now agree that Mitose didn't train in Japan at the Chaka In temple and he "borrowed" ideas from other martial artists to teach Kenpo Jujitsu in Hawaii.  

Even Hanshi Juchnik has said publicly on several occassions that Mitose was either a saint or the devil and he didn't know which.  Well, if James Mitose was the devil than I don't think we should be following his teachings or examples.

Anyway, I have to get to classes.  I like to teach my students the things they need to know for rank promotions.  It's kind of whay they expect from me.


Take care,
John


P.S.  Jesse Dwire said it should be manditory to have a sarcasm meter.  Some of what I said really should be metered at a 3 or 4.  If you are offended by any of my statements just realize that I might be saying it with the sarcastic tone.  It's kind of what I like to do!


----------



## Kosho Gakkusei

Kosho-Monk said:


> Not studying something doesn't mean that you're being prejudice - in the bad way. Saying to others that you wouldn't study something because it sucks would be showing prejudice. If you don't eat a certain food you are "retaining prejudice" based on the fact you don't care for it. Is that really so bad? Well, maybe it is if you eat only unhealthy food and end up getting really fat.


From what I know about healthy diet is that balance is the key.  Too much of any food "healthy" or "unhealthy" can create deficiencies and excesses of various nutrients.  For example: many hardcore vegetarians will jaundice without appropriate supplements.  The unfortunate thing is that when we have excess of any nutrient we actually will begin to crave that nutrient.  ie. Eat too much chocolate for too long and you will develop cravings for chocolate or regular consumption of caffiene leads to cravings for more caffiene.  My point is eating based on preference alone can lead to unhealthy imbalance.  Appropriate guidance can lead us to balanced diets both in a martial sense and in our choices of food.  


Kosho-Monk said:


> According to the Kai website, Kosho or Kempo for that matter is the study of understanding one's self. If you understand that your life is leading you in the direction of a focused practice - then you should do it. Spreading yourself out so thin that you can't really become proficient in any aspect is foolish, I think.
> 
> I view it as a jack-of-all-trades and master of none.


That's a good point and hence why I think Kosho is a lifelong study.  Like you said before after many years one becomes a well rounded practitioner.


Kosho-Monk said:


> Let's go back to the curriculum of Kosho. What did Mitose teach as a curriculum? He certainly didn't teach all of the 27 forms in the Kata no Michi text. Or the numerous sword katas that are taught. In fact, not a single form in the Kata no Michi book is a Kosho only form that comes from Mitose or earlier. The Kosho only forms were created by Hanshi Juchnik. And we certainly can't claim them as being part of a 750 year old art... right?


Agreed.  With the exception of Neko Buto, Naihanchi, & Naihano.


Kosho-Monk said:


> So what is the art that's 750 years old? Certainly not what Mitose taught. I think most people now agree that Mitose didn't train in Japan at the Chaka In temple and he "borrowed" ideas from other martial artists to teach Kenpo Jujitsu in Hawaii.


I don't think anyone perports to teach as was taught 750 years ago or even as it was taught 61 years ago.  Kosho is a living art and should be taught as it is to be taught today but the answer as to how it should be taught should come from Juchnik.  I agree that 29 Kata is alot too learn for shodan and perhaps the material should be spread out more but that's not my place to do but rather than discard the material shouldn't we seek it out and learn it ourselves then ask Hanshi how to pass it on?


Kosho-Monk said:


> Even Hanshi Juchnik has said publicly on several occassions that Mitose was either a saint or the devil and he didn't know which. Well, if James Mitose was the devil than I don't think we should be following his teachings or examples.


Then you should ask yourself why you teach them.

_Don Flatt


----------



## kosho

WOW,
           I have Hanshi coming in December. He and I have had a few talks about things. Teaching Kosho, Training In Kosho, And also Running a dojo.
 People tend to throw Up all over the place. 

Sensei Kelly Told me over dinner 1 time. In the Kia Hanshi has many things set up. You want to learn how to kick well. Go see Terry Dow, You want to learn sword, go see Mike Brown or Jeff d. You want to learn how to escape go see Uncle larry, you want to learn ETC...  Not all Kosho Teachers or students are totally well rounded. Thats what is great about kosho  you get what you can  and train hard  and follow a peacful heart...

I have seen and trained with many people out there. There are only a few true master out there in the real world. We are lucky to have one in Jaffery Nh. 

Everyone has there opinion we can go back and forth on who is right. 
Hanshi himself. tells you to learn something then forget it. He also has said I will come to your Dojo  and Throw up all over the place the teacher will clean it up after I have left... Some may know what I mean others do not. 
Those who have Hanshi At there dojo know what I mean. 

I have Hanshi coming in DECEMBER. I totally look forward to this. 

I also have the Kyu DVDS  and about 200 plus more on Kosho Ryu Kempo 
I teach my students what I have learned from them  and What I have learned for Pat Kelly and Hanshi. 
But what I teach the most is what I have learned over the past 3 plus years under John evans, in what I believe is Koshi Ryu Kempo  and Its teachings. 

Kosho is a study of ones self and the Natural Laws that keep Mother earth Happy... Not 300 plus katas.  I myself have around 50 katas  Hanshi last I knew had about 300 plus in his head. But thats why he is Hanshi...

well Please all take and be well. But there is still some Shaolin in Me LOL
people who know me know what that means......

KOSHO


----------



## Kosho Gakkusei

kosho said:


> Sensei Kelly Told me over dinner 1 time. In the Kia Hanshi has many things set up. You want to learn how to kick well. Go see Terry Dow, You want to learn sword, go see Mike Brown or Jeff d. You want to learn how to escape go see Uncle larry, you want to learn ETC... Not all Kosho Teachers or students are totally well rounded. Thats what is great about kosho you get what you can and train hard and follow a peacful heart...


Kosho is not about strict adherence to a curricullum.  Juchnik Hanshi strikes me as a free spirit.  The curricullum represents a minimum standard of what one should study on the path to self-mastery in Kosho.  It's all out there for us to learn - I've heard Hanshi say the same things Kelly Sensei told you.

Sensei means teacher it also means one who has gone before.  A sensei has the responsibility to go before their students and acquire the knowledge and skills to pass on to their students.  No one ever said that when you graduate to yudansha that learning stops.  Thankfully, we have plenty of material.  Thankfully the material is vast and diverse so that their will be things you don't want to do or don't understand why we have to study them.  Don't like sword?  Don't understand how it connects?  Study it and practice it until you do.  Seek out Jeff Driscoll or Mike Brown.

_Don Flatt


----------



## kosho

I think  I said all that??????? Don are you going to the Aug. 18th seminar in CT?  If so I will see you there. I am going with some of my students  and maybe others. I go to as many seminars as I can in the Kia to help out others schools and to learn and train. I also do BJJ seminars and train with with a open mind. I now must move twice and bring my dog to the groomers...
 before I   7 / 10 LOL.
Kosho


----------



## Kosho Gakkusei

Steve,

I'll be at the seminar if my environment permits.  I'll at least make the end as I have a private lesson with Disarro Sensei after it.

_Don


----------



## kosho

What I like about this place here is we all have a commen goal. How we get there is are own issue. what works well  for you may not work well for me and what not. But I do not feel we should be asked to do things that just make one not happy just because others feel that is what you need to do. Hanshi is a man  he is not a GOD. (Yes he is the man) but you know what I mean. He passes on info to people and not always the same way...
Pat kelly sensei has things that other do not have and may never have...
Thats hanshi's way of teaching. Maybe because we are all on are own paths... Hanshi has shown me things That My teacher did not have...

This will be may last post for some time as I feel others are walking on egg shells.

Kosho


----------



## BlackCatBonz

Kosho-Monk said:


> I agree with this. So, why then would someone who doesn't understand the drills and practices of a Kosho class (not seminar) be given a license to teach and authority to promote if they don't have this stuff? Why give (charge a $300 fee for, actually) the license and then require them to know their stuff?
> 
> It's the same as someone saying you can be a shihan if you just pay $500. Then, after you get the rank/title, they say "and now you have to learn all this stuff so you don't look foolish." Isn't that backwards?
> 
> Can you imagine if a doctor was given a license to practice medicine before actually having the knowledge to help patients properly? Or how about a high school teacher getting in front of the classroom without having been taught the subect?


 
John, the sad reality is, lots of people get rank before knowing the required material.....it's called networking.

Lots of high school level teachers get in front of a class and attempt to teach subject material they aren't familiar with......they just fake their way through it......much the same way martial arts teachers do when they don't have the stuff.

Sometimes when a system wants to expand their borders, they allow people that have attended a few seminars to act as ambassadors. They are given some token rank and start to teach what they have been learning at the seminars until such time that they are brought up to speed with the rest of the core group.

Doesn't make it right......but it happens.


----------



## MJS

kosho said:


> I think I said all that??????? Don are you going to the Aug. 18th seminar in CT? If so I will see you there. I am going with some of my students and maybe others. I go to as many seminars as I can in the Kia to help out others schools and to learn and train. I also do BJJ seminars and train with with a open mind. I now must move twice and bring my dog to the groomers...
> before I 7 / 10 LOL.
> Kosho


 
Where is the Aug 18th seminar going to be?  Any details you could give?

Mike


----------



## kosho

Shihan Tony DiSarro will be teaching clinic on Kosho curriculum and concepts.

Date: Sat. August 18th

Time: 12:00 - 3:00 p.m.

Cost: $40.00

Karate America
211 Greenwood Ave.
Bethel,CT 06801
203-792-1050

This seminar is open to all styles and would be very helpful to any Kosho Practioner. Any one intersted in attending please call Sensei George Chaber 203-792-1050


----------



## Kosho-Monk

I have been thinking about some of my posts on this thread and realized that many of my points were not understood.  And it's likely they really can't be understood via words.

I guess that's much like martial arts - it's really hard to understand what an art is all about by reading someone's posts on a message board.  It is much easier to stand face to face with someone and feel what the art is all about.

This will be my last post on this site indefinately.  I enjoy posting but I must realize that misunderstood sentences can be harmful to myself, others I respect and the martial arts that I love.  And I do not wish to create negative feelings between anyone who reads my words incorrectly.

I invite anyone who wishes to understand the art of Kosho to visit me personally or even better another Kosho teacher - like Hanshi Bruce Juchnik.


Take care & train hard,
John Evans
www.EvansKempo.com


----------



## RevIV

Kosho-Monk said:


> I have been thinking about some of my posts on this thread and realized that many of my points were not understood. And it's likely they really can't be understood via words.
> 
> I guess that's much like martial arts - it's really hard to understand what an art is all about by reading someone's posts on a message board. It is much easier to stand face to face with someone and feel what the art is all about.
> 
> This will be my last post on this site indefinately. I enjoy posting but I must realize that misunderstood sentences can be harmful to myself, others I respect and the martial arts that I love. And I do not wish to create negative feelings between anyone who reads my words incorrectly.
> 
> I invite anyone who wishes to understand the art of Kosho to visit me personally or even better another Kosho teacher - like Hanshi Bruce Juchnik.
> 
> 
> Take care & train hard,
> John Evans
> www.EvansKempo.com


 

John,  I thought we had a good meeting.  You can't leave the board all ready.
Jesse


----------



## mitose

I read through some of the posted replies.  One was the difference between my father, Thomas Mitose and Bruce Juchnik.  Juchnik is a Tracy Kenpo stylist.  Bruce can't teach the physical part of Kosho.  As for someone saying
my dad is a Kajukenbo stylist,  ask a Kajukenbo man, Rob Peladeau of the Kajukenbo Cafe what my dad teaches.  You can ask Emperado how my dad moves.( He trained with my grandfather James)  

As for taking the fight to the ground we are not blind.  We call it "groundwork".  

For all you Juchnik followers, you should take a look at Mitose's Kosho-Ryu and see the difference.  I guarantee  your eyes will be opened. 

Any questions, feel free to ask.


----------



## Danjo

mitose said:


> I read through some of the posted replies. One was the difference between my father, Thomas Mitose and Bruce Juchnik. Juchnik is a Tracy Kenpo stylist. Bruce can't teach the physical part of Kosho. As for someone saying
> my dad is a Kajukenbo stylist, ask a Kajukenbo man, Rob Peladeau of the Kajukenbo Cafe what my dad teaches. You can ask Emperado how my dad moves.( He trained with my grandfather James)
> 
> As for taking the fight to the ground we are not blind. We call it "groundwork".
> 
> For all you Juchnik followers, you should take a look at Mitose's Kosho-Ryu and see the difference. I guarantee your eyes will be opened.
> 
> Any questions, feel free to ask.


 
So your dad's Kenpo is the same physically as your grandfather's was then?


----------



## Kosho Gakkusei

mitose said:


> I read through some of the posted replies. One was the difference between my father, Thomas Mitose and Bruce Juchnik. Juchnik is a Tracy Kenpo stylist. Bruce can't teach the physical part of Kosho. As for someone saying
> my dad is a Kajukenbo stylist, ask a Kajukenbo man, Rob Peladeau of the Kajukenbo Cafe what my dad teaches. You can ask Emperado how my dad moves.( He trained with my grandfather James)
> 
> As for taking the fight to the ground we are not blind. We call it "groundwork".
> 
> For all you Juchnik followers, you should take a look at Mitose's Kosho-Ryu and see the difference. I guarantee your eyes will be opened.
> 
> Any questions, feel free to ask.


 
I've seen and done some Tracy's Kenpo and now study Kosho Ryu under Bruce Juchnik.  They don't seem alike at all to me.

Judge for yourself.

This is Juchnik's Kosho Ryu:
[yt]NkQQMBSM8l8[/yt]

This is Tracy's Kenpo:
[yt]NO7fSdBBwrc[/yt]

I'd love to see some of your father's kenpo.  Maybe you could post a video on youtube and post it on this thread.

_Don Flatt


----------



## mitose

Danjo said:


> So your dad's Kenpo is the same physically as your grandfather's was then?


yes my dad's the same as my grandpa's except it's evolving just like everything else in the world.
That stuff Bruce is doing is not Kosho-Ryu Kenpo in the video.
That MMA,bits and pieces of all the training he has done.
We are a hard hitting style and haven't changed.
My grandpa was a hitter my dad is a hitter and all our students are hitters
We are not jack of all trades,masters of none!!!!!
My dad has told me they have to experience us and they are welcome too.


----------



## Danjo

mitose said:


> yes my dad's the same as my grandpa's except it's evolving just like everything else in the world.
> That stuff Bruce is doing is not Kosho-Ryu Kenpo in the video.
> That MMA,bits and pieces of all the training he has done.
> We are a hard hitting style and haven't changed.
> My grandpa was a hitter my dad is a hitter and all our students are hitters
> We are not jack of all trades,masters of none!!!!!
> My dad has told me they have to experience us and they are welcome too.


 
"I don't fear the 10,000 kicks that have been practiced one time. I fear the one kick that has been practiced 10,000 times."

I have video footage of your dad demonstrating techniques. They look very similar to Kajukenbo to my eye.


----------



## kosho

In 1235 a Shinto priest whom James Mitose called his first ancestor
became enlightened to what we call Kempo. According to Mitose, this
man was a martial arts master and a Buddhist monk studying at Shaka-In
who found it difficult to be both. His religion taught him pacifism;
his martial art taught him destruction. He pondered this dilemma under
an old pine tree meaning Kosho in Japanese. He became enlightened and
was from then on known as, Kosho Bosatsu, the Old Pine Tree
Enlightened One. He discovered the relationship between man and Nature
and also the secret of the Escaping Arts which is what makes Kempo a
True and Pure Kempo or study of all Natural Law through a Martial Arts
medium. Then "the Grand Master founded the Kosho Shorei Temple of
Peace, True Self Defense and Kosho Shorei Yoga School. At that time,
he made up the Coat of Arms and the Motto for his Temple. In his
Temple, he taught how to escape from being harmed by using the
escaping patterns, with God's help.

"References: "What Is Self Defense" 1953 James M. Mitose
"What Is True Self Defense" 1981 James M. Mitose


Only 2 people in the world learned the Escaping Arts from Mitose
Sensei and one of these two learned all the facets of Kosho, namely
its 22 Generation *Grandmaster Bruce Juchnik. *

*The highest goal is to
defend oneself without body contact* unlike Okinawan/Japanese Karate
systems or many other Ken/mpo systems.


You say the art of kosho is hard hitting. Well I can name many Kosho teachers under Hanshi Juchnik that you would not want to get hit by. 

What hanshi Is showing in the Video is a higher level of the art.

Kosho


----------



## Danjo

kosho said:


> In 1235 a Shinto priest whom James Mitose called his first ancestor
> became enlightened to what we call Kempo. According to Mitose, this
> man was a martial arts master and a Buddhist monk studying at Shaka-In
> who found it difficult to be both. His religion taught him pacifism;
> his martial art taught him destruction. He pondered this dilemma under
> an old pine tree meaning Kosho in Japanese. He became enlightened and
> was from then on known as, Kosho Bosatsu, the Old Pine Tree
> Enlightened One. He discovered the relationship between man and Nature
> and also the secret of the Escaping Arts which is what makes Kempo a
> True and Pure Kempo or study of all Natural Law through a Martial Arts
> medium. Then "the Grand Master founded the Kosho Shorei Temple of
> Peace, True Self Defense and Kosho Shorei Yoga School. At that time,
> he made up the Coat of Arms and the Motto for his Temple. In his
> Temple, he taught how to escape from being harmed by using the
> escaping patterns, with God's help.
> 
> "References: "What Is Self Defense" 1953 James M. Mitose
> "What Is True Self Defense" 1981 James M. Mitose
> 
> 
> Only 2 people in the world learned the Escaping Arts from Mitose
> Sensei and one of these two learned all the facets of Kosho, namely
> its 22 Generation *Grandmaster Bruce Juchnik. *
> 
> *The highest goal is to*
> *defend oneself without body contact* unlike Okinawan/Japanese Karate
> systems or many other Ken/mpo systems.
> 
> 
> You say the art of kosho is hard hitting. Well I can name many Kosho teachers under Hanshi Juchnik that you would not want to get hit by.
> 
> What hanshi Is showing in the Video is a higher level of the art.
> 
> Kosho


 
(coughs and makes sound that sounds like an expletive)


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## kosho

*(coughs and makes sound that sounds like an expletive)*
*Danjo*

LOL Danjo, You make me smile.

Thank you,
 kosho


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## Kosho Gakkusei

mitose, (Am I to assume this is Mark?)
The press between your Father and Bruce Juchnik is pretty well known.  We have controversy and difference of opinion as to legitimacy.  The only way to prove which is right in that area would be to subject Juchnik's certificates and your Father's recently discovered copy of your Grandfather's will to independant forensic analysis.  Otherwise, all we have is he said vs. he said.  Since that is unlikely and expensive let's present some information of value rather than regurgitating old press releases.



mitose said:


> I read through some of the posted replies. One was the difference between my father, Thomas Mitose and Bruce Juchnik. Juchnik is a Tracy Kenpo stylist. Bruce can't teach the physical part of Kosho. As for someone saying
> my dad is a Kajukenbo stylist, ask a Kajukenbo man, Rob Peladeau of the Kajukenbo Cafe what my dad teaches. You can ask Emperado how my dad moves.( He trained with my grandfather James)


 
You claimed that Bruce Juchnik was merely a Tracy's Kenpo practitioner, I provided some video evidence that shows what Bruce is doing is NOT Tracy's Kenpo.



mitose said:


> That stuff Bruce is doing is not Kosho-Ryu Kenpo in the video.
> That MMA,bits and pieces of all the training he has done.


Your response from the video is "that stuff Bruce is doing...(must be) MMA, bits and pieces off all the training he has done."  Having actually studied what Bruce is teaching and reading two of your Grandfather's books (What is Self Defense & What is True Self Defense), I understand how what Bruce is performing is developed from what your Grandfather taught.  Interestingly enough - there are concepts and principles (many of which are found in James Mitose's writings) that underly what Bruce is doing in the video(mostly Onna Atemi - female percusion) as well as the escaping, locking, throwing, & the hard hitting (Otoko Atemi - male percusion) of the Kosho that Bruce teaches.  If Bruce made it all up, than he is more talented and brilliant than your Grandfather in my opinion.



mitose said:


> We are a hard hitting style and haven't changed.
> My grandpa was a hitter my dad is a hitter and all our students are hitters
> We are not jack of all trades,masters of none!!!!!
> My dad has told me they have to experience us and they are welcome too.


 
You were also claiming that your Father is not primarily a Kajukekenbo stylist but now it seems that the main aspect you are putting forth of your Father's Kosho Ryu is that you hit hard.  How is that unlike Kajukenbo?  In what way does your Father's art differentiate from Kajukenbo?  As I said before, I would love to see some video demonstrating your Father's performance of Kosho Ryu so I can see for myself how what he does is unlike Kajukenbo.  I'm just curious because I know that your Father is Black Belt in Kajukenbo under Joe Halburna.

Respectfully,
_Don Flatt


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

I ain't a kosho dude, but have always been suspect of Mr. Juchnik's claims. Not because of skill; but source. The age old question beaten to death on these fora: How does one learn the physical art through interviews with bars between

He had a cert. I met an old kaju dude running about not to long ago with "proof" that Juchnik's cert was a fake. FBI tested and all; some mention about a signed confession by a cellmate who forged the sig. Ain't seen or heard anything about it since, but thought it was interesting. Hearsay and rumors rock.

What I relate to most is based on the input from one of my old Parker kenpo instructors. He was there a day when Mr. Mitose came by a Parker school, and taught a class. Mr. Perry recounted, "He didn't move like any kenpo I ever saw. He didn't use the speed or semi-circular techniques we were all working on, or had come to know as "kenpo". But he hit like a train. Everything was linear hard-style, and you didn't want to be in his way...he'd run over you and through you all at once."

Sounds like a hard hitter to me. Nowhere in Perry's recount was there any mention of stuff like what Hanshi Juchnik is showing. But one source does not a case make.

D.


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## mitose

kosho said:


> In 1235 a Shinto priest whom James Mitose called his first ancestor
> became enlightened to what we call Kempo. According to Mitose, this
> man was a martial arts master and a Buddhist monk studying at Shaka-In
> who found it difficult to be both. His religion taught him pacifism;
> his martial art taught him destruction. He pondered this dilemma under
> an old pine tree meaning Kosho in Japanese. He became enlightened and
> was from then on known as, Kosho Bosatsu, the Old Pine Tree
> Enlightened One. He discovered the relationship between man and Nature
> and also the secret of the Escaping Arts which is what makes Kempo a
> True and Pure Kempo or study of all Natural Law through a Martial Arts
> medium. Then "the Grand Master founded the Kosho Shorei Temple of
> Peace, True Self Defense and Kosho Shorei Yoga School. At that time,
> he made up the Coat of Arms and the Motto for his Temple. In his
> Temple, he taught how to escape from being harmed by using the
> escaping patterns, with God's help.
> 
> "References: "What Is Self Defense" 1953 James M. Mitose
> "What Is True Self Defense" 1981 James M. Mitose
> 
> 
> Only 2 people in the world learned the Escaping Arts from Mitose
> Sensei and one of these two learned all the facets of Kosho, namely
> its 22 Generation *Grandmaster Bruce Juchnik. *
> 
> *The highest goal is to
> defend oneself without body contact* unlike Okinawan/Japanese Karate
> systems or many other Ken/mpo systems.
> 
> 
> You say the art of kosho is hard hitting. Well I can name many Kosho teachers under Hanshi Juchnik that you would not want to get hit by.
> 
> What hanshi Is showing in the Video is a higher level of the art.
> 
> Kosho


He did not learn that from my grandpa!!!!I think everybody knows what the end result in defense is not to have confrontation,thats a no brainer.you guys asked the physical part of Kosho.My grandpa said you should just lay down because it takes 2 to tango.
I don't need to hear all of these sayings because its all old to me.
You never heard the stories that I was told and you know nothing
of his last days.
I find it funny when you say Bruce is a hitter because all I seen him do was pinch.When your that big it should hurt.My dad is 5ft6in and 160lbs with hands that look like they shouldn't be on his body.Everybody is welcome
over here and work out and understand and give opinions etc.....


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## mitose

Mr.Don
Bruce's certificate was found a forgery by a specialist.
When my dad confronted the person who signed it,he confessed
that he did it and many others.
I will not post on this matter anymore....
If Bruce has something to say or discuss
he has my number and email because I tried to contact
him many times...........................


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## Kosho Gakkusei

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> What I relate to most is based on the input from one of my old Parker kenpo instructors. He was there a day when Mr. Mitose came by a Parker school, and taught a class. Mr. Perry recounted, "He didn't move like any kenpo I ever saw. He didn't use the speed or semi-circular techniques we were all working on, or had come to know as "kenpo". But he hit like a train. Everything was linear hard-style, and you didn't want to be in his way...he'd run over you and through you all at once."
> 
> Sounds like a hard hitter to me. Nowhere in Perry's recount was there any mention of stuff like what Hanshi Juchnik is showing. But one source does not a case make.


 
Thank you for relating that story.  Just one class or video clip does not provide total insight into an art.  It's not even possible to attain total insight to just one aspect of an art in one class or by watching one video.  Matter of fact take hundreds of classes and watch hundreds of videos and you'll still be gaining insight.  A class, demonstration, or video will provide a taste of what something's about.  The reason I posted the video was to show that what Hanshi Juchnik is teaching is not Tracy's Kenpo as was insuated.  As I said it's just a taste of what the SKSKI teaches.  There are many aspects to the art that are not being diplayed one of which is how and when to hit really hard.

The question was never whether or not Mitose hit hard.  Judging from the off shoots from his Kenpo as well as the makiwara methods he employed - we can establish him as a hard hitter.  There's no reason to dispute this.

But I wouldn't be quick to paint James Mitose as a one trick pony based on one class.  Neither, should we paint Bruce Juchnik as a one trick pony based on 5 min of video.  I won't because I know better.

_Don Flatt


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## mitose

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> I ain't a kosho dude, but have always been suspect of Mr. Juchnik's claims. Not because of skill; but source. The age old question beaten to death on these fora: How does one learn the physical art through interviews with bars between
> 
> He had a cert. I met an old kaju dude running about not to long ago with "proof" that Juchnik's cert was a fake. FBI tested and all; some mention about a signed confession by a cellmate who forged the sig. Ain't seen or heard anything about it since, but thought it was interesting. Hearsay and rumors rock.
> 
> What I relate to most is based on the input from one of my old Parker kenpo instructors. He was there a day when Mr. Mitose came by a Parker school, and taught a class. Mr. Perry recounted, "He didn't move like any kenpo I ever saw. He didn't use the speed or semi-circular techniques we were all working on, or had come to know as "kenpo". But he hit like a train. Everything was linear hard-style, and you didn't want to be in his way...he'd run over you and through you all at once."
> 
> Sounds like a hard hitter to me. Nowhere in Perry's recount was there any mention of stuff like what Hanshi Juchnik is showing. But one source does not a case make.
> 
> D.


Wasn't a cellmate who forged it,Bruce knows..Linear?doesn't take much to get off the line of fire.so it may look linear but effective.


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## Kosho Gakkusei

mitose said:


> Mr.Don
> Bruce's certificate was found a forgery by a specialist.
> When my dad confronted the person who signed it,he confessed
> that he did it and many others.
> I will not post on this matter anymore....
> If Bruce has something to say or discuss
> he has my number and email because I tried to contact
> him many times...........................


 
Mr. (Mark?) Mitose,

I've heard the argument before - with no proof as well just like this time.  Not that I've seen the proof myself.  Like I said before, I don't think we're going to get anywhere rehearsing old press releases back and forth.  It just becomes, "My teacher says ____" "Oh yeah, my Father says ____."

I am interested in seeing a demonstration of your Father's Kosho Ryu.  I've seen, experienced, and studied Bruce Juchnik's.  Do you have a video you could post?  I think the Kenpo community as a whole would benefit from being exposed to a taste of what you're Father has to share. youtube is easy and free.  I'd like to see how Tom Mitose's Kosho Ryu Kenpo is different from Kajukenbo and from Juchnik's Kosho.

Mark, I'm surprised to hear that you're having trouble connecting with Hanshi Juchnik.  He answers my phone calls if he's not travelling and he never knows who it is that's calling him so it's not like he just answers cause he knows it's me.

Getting a call...

I just got off the phone with Bruce Juchnik because I'm going to be visiting him in November.  I mentioned this forum and he said that he has no knowledge of Mark or Tom Mitose trying to get in touch with him.  He also said that if people focused the energy their wasting on bad mouthing him into their art they might actually get something meaningful done.

After hearing him say that.  I can't think of anything to say.  He also said he'd show me his certificates but to be honest with you, I don't even care.  I'm more interested in learning what he has to teach.

_Don Flatt


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## swong

THIS GUY BRUCE JUCHNIK SAYS HE THE 22ND DESCENDANT OF KOSHO RYU. THE ONLY THING HE IS, IS THE 22ND DESCENDANT OF HOW TO TEACH SELF DEFENCE WITH A SHOT GLASS IN HIS HAND. HE DOESN'T REMEMBER,BUT I ALSO VISTED FOLSOM THE SAME TIME HE DID. HE WAS LEAVING WHILE I WAS GOING IN. HE LEARN NOTHING FROM THE LATE JAMES MITOSE AND SHOULDN'T BE CALLING HIMSELF GRANDMASTER OF KOSHO RYU HE HAS NO PROOF. PLUS IT GOES THROUGH THE BLOOD LINE. IF YOU HAVEN'T HAD THE CHANCE TO SEE SOKE THOMAS MITOSE YOUR MISSING THE TRUE DEAL. NOT THIS MADE UP STUFF THAT JUCHNIK TEACHES. AS FOR MY BACK GROUND I'VE BEEN IN THE MARTIAL ARTS SINCE 1969. ANY QUESTIONS WRITE BACK. ASK ME ANYTHING?:asian:


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## mitose

Kosho Gakkusei said:


> Mr. (Mark?) Mitose,
> 
> I've heard the argument before - with no proof as well just like this time.  Not that I've seen the proof myself.  Like I said before, I don't think we're going to get anywhere rehearsing old press releases back and forth.  It just becomes, "My teacher says ____" "Oh yeah, my Father says ____."
> 
> I am interested in seeing a demonstration of your Father's Kosho Ryu.  I've seen, experienced, and studied Bruce Juchnik's.  Do you have a video you could post?  I think the Kenpo community as a whole would benefit from being exposed to a taste of what you're Father has to share. youtube is easy and free.  I'd like to see how Tom Mitose's Kosho Ryu Kenpo is different from Kajukenbo and from Juchnik's Kosho.
> 
> Mark, I'm surprised to hear that you're having trouble connecting with Hanshi Juchnik.  He answers my phone calls if he's not travelling and he never knows who it is that's calling him so it's not like he just answers cause he knows it's me.
> 
> Getting a call...
> 
> I just got off the phone with Bruce Juchnik because I'm going to be visiting him in November.  I mentioned this forum and he said that he has no knowledge of Mark or Tom Mitose trying to get in touch with him.  He also said that if people focused the energy their wasting on bad mouthing him into their art they might actually get something meaningful done.
> 
> After hearing him say that.  I can't think of anything to say.  He also said he'd show me his certificates but to be honest with you, I don't even care.  I'm more interested in learning what he has to teach.
> 
> _Don Flatt


I personally went to his website got info to contact him
and left messages.As for bad mouthing he's the biggest one of all.
I'll try to contact him again,let him know......


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## Kosho Gakkusei

swong said:


> THIS GUY BRUCE JUCHNIK SAYS HE THE 22ND DESCENDANT OF KOSHO RYU. THE ONLY THING HE IS, IS THE 22ND DESCENDANT OF HOW TO TEACH SELF DEFENCE WITH A SHOT GLASS IN HIS HAND. HE DOESN'T REMEMBER,BUT I ALSO VISTED FOLSOM THE SAME TIME HE DID. HE WAS LEAVING WHILE I WAS GOING IN. HE LEARN NOTHING FROM THE LATE JAMES MITOSE AND SHOULDN'T BE CALLING HIMSELF GRANDMASTER OF KOSHO RYU HE HAS NO PROOF. PLUS IT GOES THROUGH THE BLOOD LINE. IF YOU HAVEN'T HAD THE CHANCE TO SEE SOKE THOMAS MITOSE YOUR MISSING THE TRUE DEAL. NOT THIS MADE UP STUFF THAT JUCHNIK TEACHES. AS FOR MY BACK GROUND I'VE BEEN IN THE MARTIAL ARTS SINCE 1969. ANY QUESTIONS WRITE BACK. ASK ME ANYTHING?:asian:


 
I have one question.  Who are you?

_Don Flatt


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## KenpoDave

Kosho Gakkusei said:


> I have one question. Who are you?
> 
> _Don Flatt


 
You stole my question!

So, I will second it.


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## KenpoDave

Kosho Gakkusei said:


> You claimed that Bruce Juchnik was merely a Tracy's Kenpo practitioner, I provided some video evidence that shows what Bruce is doing is NOT Tracy's Kenpo.


 
Bruce Juchnik was a Tracy's Kenpo practitioner early on.  I have an article/interview of him in Black Belt magazine talking about Kosho, and he says something to the effect of, "Yeah, I still do all that stuff."

Kenpo is kenpo.  As I understand it, Kosho is a set of principles that can be applied to a base art.  Yes, while it is true that Bruce can not be doing Mitose's physical art of Kosho (_no one can_), he can certainly apply the principles that Mitose taught him to the kenpo he already knew/knows.  And to anything else he has learned or will learn.

As I heard it, that is what James Mitose told the men to do.


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## swong

Kosho Gakkusei said:


> mitose, (Am I to assume this is Mark?)
> The press between your Father and Bruce Juchnik is pretty well known. We have controversy and difference of opinion as to legitimacy. The only way to prove which is right in that area would be to subject Juchnik's certificates and your Father's recently discovered copy of your Grandfather's will to independant forensic analysis. Otherwise, all we have is he said vs. he said. Since that is unlikely and expensive let's present some information of value rather than regurgitating old press releases.
> 
> 
> 
> You claimed that Bruce Juchnik was merely a Tracy's Kenpo practitioner, I provided some video evidence that shows what Bruce is doing is NOT Tracy's Kenpo.
> 
> 
> Your response from the video is "that stuff Bruce is doing...(must be) MMA, bits and pieces off all the training he has done." Having actually studied what Bruce is teaching and reading two of your Grandfather's books (What is Self Defense & What is True Self Defense), I understand how what Bruce is performing is developed from what your Grandfather taught. Interestingly enough - there are concepts and principles (many of which are found in James Mitose's writings) that underly what Bruce is doing in the video(mostly Onna Atemi - female percusion) as well as the escaping, locking, throwing, & the hard hitting (Otoko Atemi - male percusion) of the Kosho that Bruce teaches. If Bruce made it all up, than he is more talented and brilliant than your Grandfather in my opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> You were also claiming that your Father is not primarily a Kajukekenbo stylist but now it seems that the main aspect you are putting forth of your Father's Kosho Ryu is that you hit hard. How is that unlike Kajukenbo? In what way does your Father's art differentiate from Kajukenbo? As I said before, I would love to see some video demonstrating your Father's performance of Kosho Ryu so I can see for myself how what he does is unlike Kajukenbo. I'm just curious because I know that your Father is Black Belt in Kajukenbo under Joe Halburna.
> 
> Respectfully,
> _Don Flatt


" Mitose, Soke" did train and obtain a Black Belt from the late Prof. Joe Halbuna. This being just one of the many Arts and Styles that he has mastered. I have personally trained and continue to study with "Soke"
for the last 35 years.
I understand that Juchniks style is not entirely Tracy's. Juchniks is an incorporation of many other styles. From those he has made his own.
Is this what we are supposed to believe is an AUTHENTIC original from
James Mitose? 
I know the entire "Jucknik Story"  Where is he living? What Happened to his schools? What happened to his offices in Orangevale and Penryn?
Why does he continue to evade the Mitose's calls and my own? How come he is selling all of his Parents and Grandparents personal belongings on "EBAY?" 
Another thing, It was stated somewhere that James Mitose's remains were 
never claimed by the Mitose Family. Where do you think it is and in whose possession? I was there at the Prison when the Immediate family (that means "Soke") claimed the remains. I see James at least 3 times a week!:asian:
Enough for now.....................


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## Kosho Gakkusei

swong said:


> AS FOR MY BACK GROUND I'VE BEEN IN THE MARTIAL ARTS SINCE 1969. ANY QUESTIONS WRITE BACK. ASK ME ANYTHING?:asian:


 
swong,
I'll ask I'll ask my 1st question again. Who are you?

I also have another question.  Your profile says you've been doing kosho ryu since 1969.


> *Primary Art and Ranking*: kosho ryu since 1969


 
Does this mean you began training with Mitose before or after his incarceration?

_Don Flatt


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## kosho

*Quote:*
*Originally Posted by swong **

*
_*AS FOR MY BACK GROUND I'VE BEEN IN THE MARTIAL ARTS SINCE 1969. ANY QUESTIONS WRITE BACK. ASK ME ANYTHING?:asian:*_

*swong,
I'll ask I'll ask my 1st question again. Who are you?

I also have another question. Your profile says you've been doing kosho ryu since 1969.

**Quote:*
*Primary Art and Ranking: kosho ryu since 1969 *
*Does this mean you began training with Mitose before or after his incarceration?

_Don Flatt*

Great Question Donn.
Kosho


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## Mr.NGMA

Hi Mrs. Wong. I was on the phone when you were at Debbies.


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## Mr.NGMA

I have played Uke role for Soke Thomas Mitose.....He hits extremely hard....he didn't seam to be trying very hard to do so.


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## Danjo

Here are a couple of short clips of Thomas Mitose. Not much, but I'll try to get more later.


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## Monadnock

Looked similar to the opening of Dance of Death from the Parker curriculum.


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## Danjo

here are some more:


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## DavidCC

Danjo said:


> Here are a couple of short clips of Thomas Mitose. Not much, but I'll try to get more later.


 
he _really_ likes showing us how to smack someone in the junk.


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## Kosho Gakkusei

How recent are those clips?

_Don Flatt


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## Danjo

Kosho Gakkusei said:


> How recent are those clips?
> 
> _Don Flatt


 
No idea, but he doesn't look real young in them.


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## youngbraveheart

DavidCC said:


> he _really_ likes showing us how to smack someone in the junk.


 
LOL...(very effective though)


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## leathej1

Hey guys,

I just wanted to put my 2 cents in. I started studying Kosho in 2000, when I first started studying martial arts. I was attracted to it because it seemed to be a very good merging of Buddhist philosophy and practical martial movement. Starting with this art was the smartest thing I have ever done.

Since then, whenever I study a new art, I have an advantage. I see the advanced concepts in the simplest techniques. Ideas such as aligning centers, moving in the octagon, and ways of uprooting your opponent without touching them all permeate every moment of my continued study of other arts. I can't say I _use_ these advanced concepts all the time, but at least I see them.

I have very warm feelings for the Kosho Shorei Ryu Kai, and I am happy to see they are continuing to be successful, thanks to the help of many dedicated Shihans. Also, thanks go to Hanshi Juchnik for putting up with a lot of resistance in tsome of the martial arts community, even as he sought to bridge the gap between arts. He's a cool guy.


----------

