# Technique Discussion: Lone Kimono & Twin Kimono



## MJS

[yt]Q6viFnCBym8[/yt]


[yt]uNG3qKwFrzg[/yt]

Thoughts, comments, likes, dislikes.


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## punisher73

Reading some stuff from some of the original group of SGM Parker's students, this was one of the first techniques taught.  It was called "Kimono Grab" back then.

I have always liked the technique, I think it teaches some good stuff and is great for beginners to get a feel for fluidity with their hands.

I don't have the book with me, but in Ed Parker's first book "Kenpo Karate: Law of the Fist" there is a technique very similiar.  The main difference I noticed was that after the upward strike to the arms, you off step and hit with a raking backfist to the ribs before striking down onto the arms.

I have also heard (but never had confirmed) that Kimono Grab was a Prof. Chow technique that he had used when someone attempted to grab him.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

What is each technique designed to teach us?


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## ATACX GYM

The idea behind this technique is practical solid and important for self defense.It's even very functional in competition.But the way it's taught and trained is TERRIBLE.You will get hurt trying to do that unwise "IP" method as taught against genuinely belligerent amatuers and you'll get SLAUGHTERED by anyone with skill and determination who gives you that single or double lapel grab and you try the method as taught in the IP

BTW my PC couldn't see the pix or whatever to start this thread but I have a link to a youtube video for it...

LONE KIMONO (KIMONO GRAB A)





 
TWIN KIMONO (KIMONO GRAB B)


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## MJS

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> What is each technique designed to teach us?


 
I'll take a stab.   TK was taught to me, as a double lapel grab, with the attacker pushing out.  LK....I never learned as a pushout, however, it makes sense to me, to time your stepping back, with their grab.  I view this tech/attack, as one attack, that is setting up another, ie: they grab you, holding your for a punch.  Reason I said to try and time everything, is because IMO, its going to be hard to get a good extension, even if we're pinning the hand.


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## MJS

ATACX GYM said:


> The idea behind this technique is practical solid and important for self defense.It's even very functional in competition.But the way it's taught and trained is TERRIBLE.You will get hurt trying to do that unwise "IP" method as taught against genuinely belligerent amatuers and you'll get SLAUGHTERED by anyone with skill and determination who gives you that single or double lapel grab and you try the method as taught in the IP
> 
> BTW my PC couldn't see the pix or whatever to start this thread but I have a link to a youtube video for it...
> 
> LONE KIMONO (KIMONO GRAB A)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TWIN KIMONO (KIMONO GRAB B)


 
*off topic* Personally, I have a few other things that come to mind, for a single or double lapel grab, that look nothing like either of these techs.

*on topic* Seeing that we're trying to keep this thread somewhat Kenpo  let dive into this with me asking....how do you do these techs?


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## ATACX GYM

MJS said:


> I'll take a stab.  TK was taught to me, as a double lapel grab, with the attacker pushing out. LK....I never learned as a pushout, however, it makes sense to me, to time your stepping back, with their grab. I view this tech/attack, as one attack, that is setting up another, ie: they grab you, holding your for a punch. Reason I said to try and time everything, is because IMO, its going to be hard to get a good extension, even if we're pinning the hand.


 

I agree but again the methods of training this technique are horrifically flawed,therefore the lessons are similarly not properly grasped using the IP.There is too much that is not functional and too much not being addressed at even the basic level of functional instruction that is being ignored.The "hockey punch" is only hinted at,never dealt with.There's no method detailed to deal with a guy actually grabbing you with aggressive energy,actually throwing repeated punches,the guy transitioning to a 2 hand grab,and trying to sling you down,the guy going from a single lapel grab and punch to a tackle,and all the other super duper basic combos that happen in real fights but any method like the flawed IP totally ignores.


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## ATACX GYM

MJS said:


> *off topic* Personally, I have a few other things that come to mind, for a single or double lapel grab, that look nothing like either of these techs.
> 
> *on topic* Seeing that we're trying to keep this thread somewhat Kenpo  let dive into this with me asking....how do you do these techs?


 

Off-topic response--Me too. I agree very much here.

On-topic reponse--I will put a video up on my Channel getting into the specifics of how we do this technique,but essentially we deal with the basic forms of attacks that spring from this scenario.It's EXACTLY THE SAME THOROUGHGOING FUNCTIONAL METHOD AS ALWAYS.We first gear up with protection, actually start with the scenario and the grab,and have the attacker attack and the defender defend at 1/4 power at first.We do it standing,at clinch range,up-seated (when one person is up,the other is seated) seated seated (both parties are seated) up-down (one party is standing,the other is on the ground) seated-ground (one party is seated,the other is on the ground) ground-ground (both parties are grounded) multiple attack variants of each,armed variants of each,armed multifight variants of each,escape from each,rescue (come to the aid of someone else) in each scenario and rescue and escape (the most overlooked aspect of SD imo wherein you rescue someone and YOU BOTH or YOUR GROUP escapes) of each is taught.It's lotsa fun every time.Lotsa sweat.Neeeeeveeeer boring.Always you learn more.

Believe it or not,we've found plenty of very functional ways to employ the hand pin but we tend to deal with the strike and the grab simultaneously.The utility of the most basic wristlocks are crucial here,but I find that combination striking with low line kicks and blows over the pinned hand along with scrambling pretty much is the answer.


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## MJS

ATACX GYM said:


> I agree but again the methods of training this technique are horrifically flawed,therefore the lessons are similarly not properly grasped using the IP.There is too much that is not functional and too much not being addressed at even the basic level of functional instruction that is being ignored.The "hockey punch" is only hinted at,never dealt with.There's no method detailed to deal with a guy actually grabbing you with aggressive energy,actually throwing repeated punches,the guy transitioning to a 2 hand grab,and trying to sling you down,the guy going from a single lapel grab and punch to a tackle,and all the other super duper basic combos that happen in real fights but any method like the flawed IP totally ignores.


 
True.  Like we've said before, we could a) teach the IP tech and then explore something on a more functional level or b) go right to functional.  IMO, either way is fine with me, but, we need to look at things beyond the IP.  

It seems to me, and I may be wrong, that the consensus is that the things in the IP will always cancel out any potential counters, such as what you mention above.  I'll disagree with that.


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## MJS

ATACX GYM said:


> Off-topic response--Me too. I agree very much here.
> 
> On-topic reponse--I will put a video up on my Channel getting into the specifics of how we do this technique,but essentially we deal with the basic forms of attacks that spring from this scenario.It's EXACTLY THE SAME THOROUGHGOING FUNCTIONAL METHOD AS ALWAYS.We first gear up with protection, actually start with the scenario and the grab,and have the attacker attack and the defender defend at 1/4 power at first.We do it standing,at clinch range,up-seated (when one person is up,the other is seated) seated seated (both parties are seated) up-down (one party is standing,the other is on the ground) seated-ground (one party is seated,the other is on the ground) ground-ground (both parties are grounded) multiple attack variants of each,armed variants of each,armed multifight variants of each,escape from each,rescue (come to the aid of someone else) in each scenario and rescue and escape (the most overlooked aspect of SD imo wherein you rescue someone and YOU BOTH or YOUR GROUP escapes) of each is taught.It's lotsa fun every time.Lotsa sweat.Neeeeeveeeer boring.Always you learn more.
> 
> Believe it or not,we've found plenty of very functional ways to employ the hand pin but we tend to deal with the strike and the grab simultaneously.The utility of the most basic wristlocks are crucial here,but I find that combination striking with low line kicks and blows over the pinned hand along with scrambling pretty much is the answer.


 
Ahh....looks like we were posting at the same time.  What you described is pretty much where I was heading.


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## ATACX GYM

MJS said:


> Ahh....looks like we were posting at the same time. What you described is pretty much where I was heading.


 

"Great minds..."


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## shihansmurf

Interestingly, I was taught Lone Kimono as a cross lapel grab defense. I don't know if my teacher just liked it better but I'm fond of it as a cross lapel grab defense. I used it on a local in Iraq at a traffic control point.

I gotta echo the above posters in that I wouldn't use this sequence of movements against a straight grab. I don't see the tech in the ideal pahse canceling very many followups from the attacker. I perfer to turn the pining hand into a wristlock and follow up with palm strikes.

Mark


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

I would venture to say...

If you haven't broken the wrist and elbow of the attacker a quarter beat after his contact drives into your chest, and with that same motion shattered a couple of his teeth and cracked his jaw, then you never really learned the Ideal Phase basic moves.

You see, I missed once. Broke the wrist, teeth and jaw, jacked the guy up onto his toes getting the ribs to protrude into the path of the raking blow, but failed at getting the elobw to break... I forgot to cheat step rearward and draw him out of his tree before stepping back and pivoting with the rising uppercut under the elbow and jaw, hand pinned and turned into a zed-lock just before contact on the arm.

Also got this first move off against a MMA/BJJ cat who was snaking his left hand behind my left collar to start a choke. Missed both breaks that time, but broke the front teeth and a couple molars on the guy... elbow tension was wrong, so I just sprained his shoulder.

Luckily for me, no one had told me the ideal phase didn't work. Makes me wonder if its the IP thats flawed, or an individuals understanding of the intricate lessons involved in each phase progression.


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## ATACX GYM

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> I would venture to say...
> 
> If you haven't broken the wrist and elbow of the attacker a quarter beat after his contact drives into your chest, and with that same motion shattered a couple of his teeth and cracked his jaw, then you never really learned the Ideal Phase basic moves.
> 
> You see, I missed once. Broke the wrist, teeth and jaw, jacked the guy up onto his toes getting the ribs to protrude into the path of the raking blow, but failed at getting the elobw to break... I forgot to cheat step rearward and draw him out of his tree before stepping back and pivoting with the rising uppercut under the elbow and jaw, hand pinned and turned into a zed-lock just before contact on the arm.
> 
> Also got this first move off against a MMA/BJJ cat who was snaking his left hand behind my left collar to start a choke. Missed both breaks that time, but broke the front teeth and a couple molars on the guy... elbow tension was wrong, so I just sprained his shoulder.
> 
> Luckily for me, no one had told me the ideal phase didn't work. Makes me wonder if its the IP thats flawed, or an individuals understanding of the intricate lessons involved in each phase progression.


 

It's the TRAINING that makes the difference.If you never sparred with this technique and still pulled it off in a SD scenario? Then chances are likely high that you're in that elite extra slim extra low percentile of people who have exceptional ability combined with having the "luck" of having unskilled attackers attacking you...or your ability significantly outstrips the ability and skill of your attacker.

Put another way...if you did what the traditional "IP" seems to hold to be the "training paradigm" (which is frankly zero sparring and therefore zero likely carryover into combat) with this technique and faced off against another trained person of equivalent ability who DID train functionally and thus has thousands and thousands of reps against resisting opponents in the execution of this technique? The results are likely to be dramatically less favorable.I am very glad that you were unscathed and I have respect for your opinions and your well written posts...but the fact remains that the functional training method is vastly superior to  the nonfunctional IP.So even if you or others opine that the IP works? The FM works much better; so why would anyone elect to ride on a giant tortoise when The Star Trek Enterprise awaits?

I do enjoy these discussions and look forward to exchanging videos with you wherein we go into the specifics of how we teach each technique,and draw comparisons and contrasts.Why don't you put up a video and a link showing how you train this specific technique (which I was taught as Kimono Grabs A and B) and I'll put up mine? Hopefully we can learn from each other and collectively improve one another's training methods.Whaddya say?


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

The piece I think is a misnomer is the idea that all people train the ideal phase the same, treat the information the same, or even have the same information. It's an error in critical thinking to assume a shared phrase is a shared starting point.

I treasure the Ideal Phase, because of how I train it.. what the information means to me, and how I work with it. My next birthday will make 40 years of being at this. In that time, I too have trained in BJJ, Muay Thai, western boxing, etc. I have also been critical of standard teaching methods in kenpo. In fact, I'll venture to say most of the "product" out there is shyte. I'm sure there are people who think mine is, too.

HOWEVER... each time I went to Mr. P with a kvetch about the IP of some given technique being brutally flawed, he would open my eyes with some different way of looking at it... some way I had not yet percieved the information, or some bit of information that was lacking in my understanding of the IP. Big difference between saying "kenpo, as a system, is flawed", as opposed to "my understanding of the kenpo system is incomplete, and therefore my training and eprfomance are too."

I have been without camera and training padnah for several months now, focusing instead on stepping up to meet my families needs by growing my business. Got a camera just recently; now all I need is the training padnah. I will be glad to compare video notes with you. t cannot be my top priority, at this time, as I just signed a lease on a new practice location a few weeks back, and now gotta get bodies on the bench. 

As soon as I get a body to bang on, and a moment to bang on them that doesn't sabotage the marketing efforts of a half-days time, I'll be in knee-deep.


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## MJS

The wrist break...yup, I see that possibly happening, if you pin correctly, and turn.  The arm break/dislocation...sure.  Not seeing the cracked jaw, unless you move that handsword up to the face, from the throat.  

And of course, everyone will train stuff differently, so sure, its a bit of an assumption to say that everyone trains the same.  My view is simply, the IP works fine, if everything is ideal.  OTOH, I've seen threads with people, myself included, that the IP is a base, and we shouldnt be concerned with pulling off an IP, but instead, using parts of the tech.  

Is the IP tech assuming that when the person grabs, the attacker will fully extend their arms?  If the person grabs and is going the pull in/push out, but not fully extending their arms, we're probably not going to get the break.  

Here  is a clip from Vee Arnis Jitsu, that IMO, makes many good points.  

[yt]wzvSuW78wvE[/yt]

So, in the beginning, we have a discussion of a tech, in which part of the defense is a groin hit.  Yet when David James is attacking the student, the groin shot isn't there, due to the nature of his attack.  He then, at another point in the demo, sweeps the guy he's choking, down and continues to apply a choke.

This, IMO, (and I may be wrong, as I dont like to speak for others)is a good idea of what Ras is talking about.  IMO, its rare that we see the other possibilities of what could happen during the defense.  Instead, we see compliant partners.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

MJS said:


> The wrist break...yup, I see that possibly happening, if you pin correctly, and turn. The arm break/dislocation...sure. Not seeing the cracked jaw, unless you move that handsword up to the face, from the throat.
> 
> And of course, everyone will train stuff differently, so sure, its a bit of an assumption to say that everyone trains the same. My view is simply, the IP works fine, if everything is ideal. OTOH, I've seen threads with people, myself included, that the IP is a base, and we shouldnt be concerned with pulling off an IP, but instead, using parts of the tech.
> 
> Is the IP tech assuming that when the person grabs, the attacker will fully extend their arms? If the person grabs and is going the pull in/push out, but not fully extending their arms, we're probably not going to get the break.
> 
> Here is a clip from Vee Arnis Jitsu, that IMO, makes many good points.
> 
> [yt]wzvSuW78wvE[/yt]
> 
> So, in the beginning, we have a discussion of a tech, in which part of the defense is a groin hit. Yet when David James is attacking the student, the groin shot isn't there, due to the nature of his attack. He then, at another point in the demo, sweeps the guy he's choking, down and continues to apply a choke.
> 
> This, IMO, (and I may be wrong, as I dont like to speak for others)is a good idea of what Ras is talking about. IMO, its rare that we see the other possibilities of what could happen during the defense. Instead, we see compliant partners.


 
Way to prompt discussion, Michael. 

The opening move is often taught as an upward block. This is to get new students accustomed to the uplifting of the arm as part of the answer to the inital assault. An upward blocking movement starts with a rising uppercut, palm facing your own face. Up, under the bottom the the jaw. How do we get the jaw to present? Some buncha steps before the move. When pushed, pull = jujitsu 101.

If the attacker pushes with any sort of aggression -- I mean, like he's really pissed off and is out to hand you your *** -- there is plenty of rearward driving force to ride. Step back with your right foot about 1/2 a horse stances deptha rearward, before LUNGING back with the left into the RNB. Pin, anchor, and YANK the guy back with you, and watch what happens to the tip of his chin as his body adapts to the momentum you just added through the acceleration step. Raise the uppercut into the jaw, and use the same movement to hyper-extend the arm if its straight, or roll his elbow across his midline in a bent position if not (shoulder manipulation). Either will permit you to make solid contact to the mandible as you pass through that point of contact. 

The drag against the arm, either skyward or accross the midline, will force the ribs to present for the hammer of backfist that passes that point of contact. The same move that clears the arm, open the elipse a bit, and make it a raking inward hammerfist. Take the temple, mandibular hinge, side of the bridge of the nose and spin his head with it, whatever. The return path to the chop should be off a teardrop that loads the chop high, to descend into the next target.

Needing to chop up means you failed to control your attackers posture and position.


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## MJS

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> Way to prompt discussion, Michael.


 
I try. 



> The opening move is often taught as an upward block. This is to get new students accustomed to the uplifting of the arm as part of the answer to the inital assault. An upward blocking movement starts with a rising uppercut, palm facing your own face. Up, under the bottom the the jaw. How do we get the jaw to present? Some buncha steps before the move. When pushed, pull = jujitsu 101.


 
I've always done this as a rising (upward) forearm strike.  



> If the attacker pushes with any sort of aggression -- I mean, like he's really pissed off and is out to hand you your *** -- there is plenty of rearward driving force to ride. Step back with your right foot about 1/2 a horse stances deptha rearward, before LUNGING back with the left into the RNB. Pin, anchor, and YANK the guy back with you, and watch what happens to the tip of his chin as his body adapts to the momentum you just added through the acceleration step. Raise the uppercut into the jaw, and use the same movement to hyper-extend the arm if its straight, or roll his elbow across his midline in a bent position if not (shoulder manipulation). Either will permit you to make solid contact to the mandible as you pass through that point of contact.


 
I'll work that. 



> The drag against the arm, either skyward or accross the midline, will force the ribs to present for the hammer of backfist that passes that point of contact. The same move that clears the arm, open the elipse a bit, and make it a raking inward hammerfist. Take the temple, mandibular hinge, side of the bridge of the nose and spin his head with it, whatever. The return path to the chop should be off a teardrop that loads the chop high, to descend into the next target.
> 
> Needing to chop up means you failed to control your attackers posture and position.


 
I always teach the backfist.  Wasnt thinking about the hammerfist to the head, prior to striking down on the arm.


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## MJS

Dave,

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding something, so hopefully you can clarify for me. 

Reading the last few posts, I get the impression that you're saying that this technique is perfectly fine to do in the IP.  But in this thread, I get the complete opposite read.  

As for the clip that I posted...I posted that simply for reference.  We saw a tech being discussed, which included a groin shot, yet once some pressure was applied, that groin shot went right out the window.


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## marlon

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> Way to prompt discussion, Michael.
> 
> The opening move is often taught as an upward block. This is to get new students accustomed to the uplifting of the arm as part of the answer to the inital assault. An upward blocking movement starts with a rising uppercut, palm facing your own face. Up, under the bottom the the jaw. How do we get the jaw to present? Some buncha steps before the move. When pushed, pull = jujitsu 101.
> 
> If the attacker pushes with any sort of aggression -- I mean, like he's really pissed off and is out to hand you your *** -- there is plenty of rearward driving force to ride. Step back with your right foot about 1/2 a horse stances deptha rearward, before LUNGING back with the left into the RNB. Pin, anchor, and YANK the guy back with you, and watch what happens to the tip of his chin as his body adapts to the momentum you just added through the acceleration step. Raise the uppercut into the jaw, and use the same movement to hyper-extend the arm if its straight, or roll his elbow across his midline in a bent position if not (shoulder manipulation). Either will permit you to make solid contact to the mandible as you pass through that point of contact.
> 
> The drag against the arm, either skyward or accross the midline, will force the ribs to present for the hammer of backfist that passes that point of contact. The same move that clears the arm, open the elipse a bit, and make it a raking inward hammerfist. Take the temple, mandibular hinge, side of the bridge of the nose and spin his head with it, whatever. The return path to the chop should be off a teardrop that loads the chop high, to descend into the next target.
> 
> Needing to chop up means you failed to control your attackers posture and position.


 
this is why I usually take the stance against dropping the IP techniques.Although, it has to make sense, the onus is on me to find this stuff through hard work and constantly sharpenening the sword. How much would be lost if I misunderstood things so much that I created something immediately superior looking but bereft of content in the long run.. Thank you Dr.Dave. I 'find' stuff like this all the time as I delve more into the basics and training. Sometimes even more often when I practice them slow enough to see but keep the intent of the lines of force involved. Great stuff!!!
many thanks
Marlon


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

MJS said:


> Dave,
> 
> Perhaps I'm misunderstanding something, so hopefully you can clarify for me.
> 
> Reading the last few posts, I get the impression that you're saying that this technique is perfectly fine to do in the IP. But in this thread, I get the complete opposite read.
> 
> As for the clip that I posted...I posted that simply for reference. We saw a tech being discussed, which included a groin shot, yet once some pressure was applied, that groin shot went right out the window.


 
Training the IP develops the skills. Circumstance in a fight is fluid, and ever-changing. One has got to be able to adapt to circumstance. I think that the guys in the nosebleed stratosphere can dictate the terms of engagement... I never got to go anywhere grappling that Rickson or his AI's didn't let me; I never got to fall over from a kenpo thwack until I was allowed to by Mr. Parker... Doc is the same way. I train for that level of expertise, but am willing to move into "What If" contingencies if-and-when I drop the 'Even If" ball. Have had soime fights go like clockwork... couldn't ask for more ideal conditions and responses. Others have been barely contained chaos, where I just try to hang on long enough to hit whatever I can, whenever I get the chance. Both states of personal combat have been informed well by IP training.


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## MJS

marlon said:


> this is why I usually take the stance against dropping the IP techniques.Although, it has to make sense, the onus is on me to find this stuff through hard work and constantly sharpenening the sword. How much would be lost if I misunderstood things so much that I created something immediately superior looking but bereft of content in the long run.. Thank you Dr.Dave. I 'find' stuff like this all the time as I delve more into the basics and training. Sometimes even more often when I practice them slow enough to see but keep the intent of the lines of force involved. Great stuff!!!
> many thanks
> Marlon


 


Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> Training the IP develops the skills. Circumstance in a fight is fluid, and ever-changing. One has got to be able to adapt to circumstance. I think that the guys in the nosebleed stratosphere can dictate the terms of engagement... I never got to go anywhere grappling that Rickson or his AI's didn't let me; I never got to fall over from a kenpo thwack until I was allowed to by Mr. Parker... Doc is the same way. I train for that level of expertise, but am willing to move into "What If" contingencies if-and-when I drop the 'Even If" ball. Have had soime fights go like clockwork... couldn't ask for more ideal conditions and responses. Others have been barely contained chaos, where I just try to hang on long enough to hit whatever I can, whenever I get the chance. Both states of personal combat have been informed well by IP training.


 
Just for clarification....IIRC, I've never suggested not training the IP techniques. In fact, I believe what I have said, is that the IP techniques are our base, our foundation, to build from. But....I also feel that we need to look past the IP techniques. I've said it, others have said it too. We probably aren't going to pull off a full blown IP, but we will most likely use bits and pieces accordingly. 

I'll train Lone Kimono with someone in a fully relaxed state. No resistance, no counters, nothing other than the base technique. He stands there (like we see in numerous clips) and lets me pound away at him. This is my time to work the technique, the fine points, etc. Afterwards, the pace gets picked up a bit more. The grab is a bit harder, some movement is added in, eventually working up to where, at some point during the technique, he does something different, such as throwing a punch with his right, grabbing with his other hand, trying to kick, abandoning the grab and changing the attack altogether. This is where the spontaneous stuff comes in, IMO. Yeah, I know the initial attack, but thats it...I dont know what else he's going to do. Of course, I also work total spontaneous drills, where I have no idea whats coming, and yes, sometimes its more than 1 attack. To date, when I've done this, I've yet to do a full IP technique.  Iam doing bits and pieces and the concepts and ideas though...ie: the basics. 

The other day, I was flipping thru the May 2011 issue of BB magazine. Interesting article by Kelly McCann. In it, he talks about how an attack, will have a dimishing effect on things such as speed of response, decision making and effective recall. He says that while learning hundreds of techniques is a fine hobby and needed to acheive rank, its better to have fewer choices. IMO, we get those 'fewer choices' by using the base techs. and building from there, such as I describe above. 

For me, and I know this may not be the proper Kenpo way of thinking, but thats fine, but my goal is simple...defend myself. I'm not looking to pull out a list of X number of punch techs. I'm looking to defend myself with the simple basics, that the techs teach us. Whether I do Attacking Mace or simply step off on a 45, parry and blast the guy in the face...as long as I'm defending the punch, THAT is what matters most.


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## marlon

I don't think the idea of dropping or changing the IP techniques came from you and I apologize if I gave you the impression that I did. It has been brought up in this thread and on this forum before so, perhaps I tailored my answer for a bunch of 'what if's".  We seem to be in agreement that we take the base technique train it for basics movement, terget selection and understanding.We amp up the training for understanding and increased skill in application beyond a compliant partner.  All this so that after we are attacked we can sit down and say hey maybe i used part of tis techniques when this happened or part of this one.What we know for sure is we wrecked a bad guy in less time than it takes to 'pull off' a full techniques and our basics were solid and our training proved true.BTW I am not entirely convinced of the veracit of the statement you quoted from  BB magazine.  Training is truth

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## marlon

MJS said:


> The wrist break...yup, I see that possibly happening, if you pin correctly, and turn. The arm break/dislocation...sure. Not seeing the cracked jaw, unless you move that handsword up to the face, from the throat.
> 
> And of course, everyone will train stuff differently, so sure, its a bit of an assumption to say that everyone trains the same. My view is simply, the IP works fine, if everything is ideal. OTOH, I've seen threads with people, myself included, that the IP is a base, and we shouldnt be concerned with pulling off an IP, but instead, using parts of the tech.
> 
> Is the IP tech assuming that when the person grabs, the attacker will fully extend their arms? If the person grabs and is going the pull in/push out, but not fully extending their arms, we're probably not going to get the break.
> 
> Here is a clip from Vee Arnis Jitsu, that IMO, makes many good points.
> 
> [yt]wzvSuW78wvE[/yt]
> 
> So, in the beginning, we have a discussion of a tech, in which part of the defense is a groin hit. Yet when David James is attacking the student, the groin shot isn't there, due to the nature of his attack. He then, at another point in the demo, sweeps the guy he's choking, down and continues to apply a choke.
> 
> This, IMO, (and I may be wrong, as I dont like to speak for others)is a good idea of what Ras is talking about. IMO, its rare that we see the other possibilities of what could happen during the defense. Instead, we see compliant partners.


 
one thing I would like to point out is that the black belt defending against the teacher shouting "where is your knee" repearedly, has no base to strike from and never even seems to look to establish one.  That is something I imaginge that can be learned through the ideal phase

Just one thing that stuck out to me

Respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## ATACX GYM

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> The piece I think is a misnomer is the idea that all people train the ideal phase the same, treat the information the same, or even have the same information. It's an error in critical thinking to assume a shared phrase is a shared starting point.
> 
> I treasure the Ideal Phase, because of how I train it.. what the information means to me, and how I work with it. My next birthday will make 40 years of being at this. In that time, I too have trained in BJJ, Muay Thai, western boxing, etc. I have also been critical of standard teaching methods in kenpo. In fact, I'll venture to say most of the "product" out there is shyte. I'm sure there are people who think mine is, too.
> 
> HOWEVER... each time I went to Mr. P with a kvetch about the IP of some given technique being brutally flawed, he would open my eyes with some different way of looking at it... some way I had not yet percieved the information, or some bit of information that was lacking in my understanding of the IP. Big difference between saying "kenpo, as a system, is flawed", as opposed to "my understanding of the kenpo system is incomplete, and therefore my training and eprfomance are too."
> 
> I have been without camera and training padnah for several months now, focusing instead on stepping up to meet my families needs by growing my business. Got a camera just recently; now all I need is the training padnah. I will be glad to compare video notes with you. t cannot be my top priority, at this time, as I just signed a lease on a new practice location a few weeks back, and now gotta get bodies on the bench.
> 
> As soon as I get a body to bang on, and a moment to bang on them that doesn't sabotage the marketing efforts of a half-days time, I'll be in knee-deep.


 

^^^I like this guy!

I utterly agree with you in at least one area; there is a gargantuan difference between the idea that "Kenpo as a system is flawed" (which I completely disagree with) and saying:"My understanding of Kenpo is incomplete and therefore flawed." I would even add the caveat that my lack of pinnacle technical mastery and utter immaculate comprehension of Kenpo and anything else is so devastating that there are likely infinite variations and levels of my and our ignorance that we will NEVER alleviate.It's the path of attempting to alleviate my ignorance that is most rewarding to me.Like I tell my students and clients quite often:"I try to be less stupid and ignorant today than I was yesterday.I don't always succeed; but I always try."

However,a lack of flawless comprehension of Kenpo doesn't mean that I or many others aren't more than proficient in Kenpo (I know you didn't say that,I'm just making the point clear).Furthermore,my comments weren't about Kenpo the system,my comments were and are directed to the utility of the IP.Here is the essence of my position summed up in a few quick sentences: 

The IP is inferior to the Functional Method because it isn't trained functionally,against real time resistance energy and motion.Therefore the functional expression of a Kenpo technique almost 100% of the time will look different than the IP variant of that same technique.,because the functional method is trained via sparring and other real world means in exactly the scenarios that a given technique is supposed to effectively address.The IP absolutely does not do this.Even if by some miracle one becomes competent using the IP? That same person is likely using a hybrid IP and functional method; and that person(s) would be MORE competent more quickly and more comprehensively using the functional method.


Here's the IP Captured Twigs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnxcbNP6Gf0&feature=related


Here's one of the BETTER IP Captured Twigs variants:





 




 
Here's a FUNCTIONAL basic Captured Twigs expression:





 

Here's the IP Alternatng Maces:





 
Here's a Functional Alternating Maces





 

See,there won't be THAT HUGE of a variance in effective combat expression of technique.The IP allows such a wide spectrum of expression because the practitioners of the IP don't have the litmus test,the reality check,of actually SPARRING with the IP technique.Witness boxing: Ali and Tyson have totally different expressions,but we can recognize when they jab and throw combos and we recognize their skill in their pursuit.

95% of this discussion between the IP and the FUNCTIONAL METHOD will evaporate if the IP exponents start showing themselves SPARRING against all comers WITH THEIR IP TECHNIQUES.The results will not be the resounding confirmation of IP practicality that they might assume it will be.Not even the argument that "well,self-defense is different than sparring is" can save the proponents of this approach.Know why? THEY'RE RIGHT.SD is FOREVER different than SPARRING.But the catch is: the IP METHOD CAN'T WITHSTAND UNIVERSAL ENERGETIC SPARRING.Know why? THE IP METHOD'S TECHNIQUES ARE BASED ON YOUR ASSAILANT DOING THINGS IN THE "IDEAL PHASE" which COMPLETELY ELIMINATES REAL WORLD RESISTANCE.Therefore if you took 100 people and taught them the IP and it looked like the above techniques? They'll fail to adequately defend themselves most of the time.AND IT GETS WORSE NOT BETTER IN SD SCENARIOS.The converse is true using the functional method in any area,not just martial arts.


----------



## marlon

Thanks for sharing.  Your functional version of 'capturing twigs" attempts to address a number of what if's, and as such can never end. I could see a number of what ifs that you do not address and see some alignment things that I would consider an error.  It is still quite good and demonstrates a sincere work ethic and a great deal of energy on your part.  Some good stuff there.  BTW the caturing twigs show did not look very good to my eyes.  Again, I am not trained in AK.
What are the fundementals and principles you want your student to learn from your version that they can extrapolate to other scenarios and other aspects of teir training?
Thank you again

marlon


----------



## Inkspill

the techniques are templates. if you can't effectively use them, practice more and make sure everything is correct. of course, depending on who you're learning from, they might not know the correct formation of the basics. if they teach an inward block with the forearm near horizontal, you're not going to have much margin for error.

if the basics are incorrect it's not going to work. master the basics and practice enough and it will all fall into place. I think the techniques work well as is, for teaching purposes, of course this doesn't mean all Kenpo is going to be the same quality, depending on the teacher and the student. unfortunately, not everyone has access to learn from one of the greats, so I can see how people see some of the junk on youtube and have doubts. I have doubts when I see those vids too, but I also have a great teacher showing me the correct way, removing doubt, and feeling the effectiveness.


----------



## ATACX GYM

marlon said:


> Thanks for sharing. Your functional version of 'capturing twigs" attempts to address a number of what if's, and as such can never end. I could see a number of what ifs that you do not address and see some alignment things that I would consider an error. It is still quite good and demonstrates a sincere work ethic and a great deal of energy on your part. Some good stuff there. BTW the caturing twigs show did not look very good to my eyes. Again, I am not trained in AK.
> What are the fundementals and principles you want your student to learn from your version that they can extrapolate to other scenarios and other aspects of teir training?
> Thank you again
> 
> marlon


 
The fact that you're not trained in AK,imho,is wholly immaterial to this discussion.In fact,it may be a major benefit because you...like me...may be wholly untouched by any personal inclination to follow in the unfortunately viral rampant intolerance and inflexible mindset that too many adherents to various Kenpo organizations actually and regularly engage in despite their rhetoric eschewing such behaviour and embracing the universality of martial arts and martial artists.Good for you,Marlon.


You're absolutely right in that the the specific iterations of what-if's can never end,so there is no way that you or I or anyone else or any combination of EVERYONE ELSE can come up with a tailored response for every specific situation.However,we can organize the infinity of responses into broad categories that we can rigorously train,which will then allow a direct and time tested and practiced response response to anything that includes or combines these categories.

My studies and reading strongly indicates that civilian self-defense falls largely into these primary categories: Mid distance weapons range,standup,clinch,seated,up-seated (one party is standing/elevated,the other is seted),seated-seated,standing-ground,seated-ground,ground-ground,multifights,armed,any combination of any/all of the above,escape,escape with the combo of any of the above,rescue from any single or combo of the above,rescue and escape with any single instance or combo of the above.These categories are also what I use to test my SD techniques.The spirituality,inner confidence,knowledge,questioning,questing,self-exploration,and lifelong personal growth that springs from the martial pursuit is what I want my students to learn and what emphatically and empirically accrues from a pursuit following this parameters.And it's ironically directly in accordance with the urgings of and writings of the masters.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CQKW5QTJJU&feature=channel_video_title


----------



## MJS

marlon said:


> one thing I would like to point out is that the black belt defending against the teacher shouting "where is your knee" repearedly, has no base to strike from and never even seems to look to establish one. That is something I imaginge that can be learned through the ideal phase
> 
> Just one thing that stuck out to me
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon


 
Thats why I posted that clip.  If this tech in that clip were done slower, in the IP, that base may've been there, but given the fact that he was attacked hard and fast, it didn't allow him to do much.  But as you said, maybe he just wasnt trying, I dont know.  

OTOH, even if he had established a base, everythings probably going to go south once he lifts his leg to throw the knee, no?  I doubt the bad guy is going to stop his forward pressure even if the defender gets into a base.


----------



## marlon

MJS said:


> Thats why I posted that clip. If this tech in that clip were done slower, in the IP, that base may've been there, but given the fact that he was attacked hard and fast, it didn't allow him to do much. But as you said, maybe he just wasnt trying, I dont know.
> 
> OTOH, even if he had established a base, everythings probably going to go south once he lifts his leg to throw the knee, no? I doubt the bad guy is going to stop his forward pressure even if the defender gets into a base.


 

I, I, omg.  Once you establish your base why would you want to stop the forward momentum?  I don't have this technique but brace redirect the frward motion  or angle off slightly and let them run into your counter.  It's so beautiful when that happens that i sometimes could cry.  But why does it happen...hopefully because i made it happen, that's what we train to do.  Contact is control.  SK does a bit more msk manipulation than most of the AK i have seen.  
The IP should have helped develop the how to step back and establish a base and then progressively been amped up focusing on that aspect of the technique especially, because it is how you survive the initial attack and then that show could not have happened
Respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## marlon

Is there an official guide of what one is supposed to learn with the IP?  from what i am hearing it seems that some learn it like an empty form or a piece of a dance and then are somehow expected to b able to respond to an attacker later.  That seems unproductive.  Yet, there  are others here who look at it differently and by all accounts are hard *** fighters.  So, what is the AK standard that GM Parker taught about IP's.  I ask because unlike us you have an almost universally revered founder to turn to 

Marlon


----------



## ATACX GYM

marlon said:


> Is there an official guide of what one is supposed to learn with the IP? from what i am hearing it seems that some learn it like an empty form or a piece of a dance and then are somehow expected to b able to respond to an attacker later. That seems unproductive. Yet, there are others here who look at it differently and by all accounts are hard *** fighters. So, what is the AK standard that GM Parker taught about IP's. I ask because unlike us you have an almost universally revered founder to turn to
> 
> Marlon


 
I have NO IDEA if there's a specific definition in stone that GGMEP left for us regarding the IP other than the specific injunction about the IP being a "set of templates and not set in stone" from which we can physically and mentally ingrain all the principles of Kenpo.My contention is merely that we can do these things much faster,more powerfully,more obviously,and more credibly using a different training modality,which is the FUNCTIONAL METHOD.I believe that each and every one of the 72 SD sequences of EPAK need to be reinterpreted using the functional method and the resultant techniques are to be used as the base from which all other techniques and responses spring from: whether we look at it as  dance or whatever we will be able to do whatever it is that we individually wish to do FAR BETTER because now we're using a method that is colossally more effective in achieving those infinite varied goals.

The Functional Method is to the IP what the unbridled power of the human mind performing mathematics is to an amoeba attempting the same thing.It's like having ultra supercomputers doing number crunching for you as opposed to calculating the distance from Earth to the outer reaches of the known universe by counting on your fingers and toes.It's immeasurably,permanently,and obviously superior.The problem is? When I say this,some people think I'm dissing mathematics.That's like saying that you're dissing physics because you use the tech and theories of Stephen Hawking instead of the material available to say...Isaac Newton.It's because you're down with physics that you're down with Hawking.Whe I promote the Functional Method in Kenpo,many people think that I'm dissing Kenpo or saying that the SD templates in Kenpo don't work or something else ludicrous.No...KENPO WORKS.It's THE TRAINING of the techniques that makes the difference in the real world.

Like it says in my sig and like I say in my Gym:"IT'S NOT JUST WHAT YOU KNOW IT'S HOW YOU TRAIN."


----------



## MJS

marlon said:


> Is there an official guide of what one is supposed to learn with the IP? from what i am hearing it seems that some learn it like an empty form or a piece of a dance and then are somehow expected to b able to respond to an attacker later. That seems unproductive. Yet, there are others here who look at it differently and by all accounts are hard *** fighters. So, what is the AK standard that GM Parker taught about IP's. I ask because unlike us you have an almost universally revered founder to turn to
> 
> Marlon


 
Theres 'Big Red' which is a huge, red binder, that has all of the techs. in the system.  Of course, this was a ref. tool.  Doc would be a good person to ask on this.  

Whats in 'big red' isn't necessarily gospel.  I'm sure GM Parker taught everyone differently.  In other words, someone who was more interested in getting rank, and not really learning the system, per se, would probably get things one way.  Doc Chapel, who spent alot more in depth time with GM Parker, most likely got things differently.


----------



## Inkspill

what is the FUNCTIONAL METHOD that is being referrenced? would like more details please

I see the Self Defense Techniques as functional, and the method they are taught to be functional as well. of course, that depends on the student and the teacher, not all Kenpo is created equal.

depending on the school, we do have an official guide, the manual and teacher. at my club we practice in the air and on the body, moving through the 3 phases, stages, and states as skill level increases.


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

MJS said:


> Theres 'Big Red' which is a huge, red binder, that has all of the techs. in the system. Of course, this was a ref. tool. Doc would be a good person to ask on this.
> 
> Whats in 'big red' isn't necessarily gospel. I'm sure GM Parker taught everyone differently. In other words, someone who was more interested in getting rank, and not really learning the system, per se, would probably get things one way. Doc Chapel, who spent alot more in depth time with GM Parker, most likely got things differently.


 
There were also subsequent training manuals, which would list the concepts, principles, and study notes for each technique. Mr. Hale compiled them into a comprehensive journal, "The Kenpo Journal". Punch that into google or yahoo and you will have no trouble finding his site.


----------



## MJS

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> There were also subsequent training manuals, which would list the concepts, principles, and study notes for each technique. Mr. Hale compiled them into a comprehensive journal, "The Kenpo Journal". Punch that into google or yahoo and you will have no trouble finding his site.


 

Yes, here it is. 
http://www.pacifickenpo.com/Kenpo-Journal.html

Looks like its something worth having.


----------



## MJS

Inkspill said:


> what is the FUNCTIONAL METHOD that is being referrenced? would like more details please
> 
> I see the Self Defense Techniques as functional, and the method they are taught to be functional as well. of course, that depends on the student and the teacher, not all Kenpo is created equal.
> 
> depending on the school, we do have an official guide, the manual and teacher. at my club we practice in the air and on the body, moving through the 3 phases, stages, and states as skill level increases.


 
Its alot to read, but here:
http://www.straightblastgym.com/aliveness101.html

In a nutshell, the way techs should be practiced would be:

1) drilling.  When you initially learn the tech, there is no resistance, everything goes according to plan.  This is the learning phase.  You make sure that you're footwork is right, stances, that you're hitting to the correct spot, for max. results, correct blocks, etc.

2) You gradually start to perform the tech at a quicker pace.  The attack is coming in a bit quicker and you're executing your defense quicker.  More pressure is added.

3) Your attacker is actively resisting.  He is not letting you perform your textbook tech.  Basically, you, as the defender, have to really make the tech work.  

Like I said, the link is alot to read, but it gives a good idea of the FM.


----------



## marlon

MJS said:


> Its alot to read, but here:
> http://www.straightblastgym.com/aliveness101.html
> 
> In a nutshell, the way techs should be practiced would be:
> 
> 1) drilling. When you initially learn the tech, there is no resistance, everything goes according to plan. This is the learning phase. You make sure that you're footwork is right, stances, that you're hitting to the correct spot, for max. results, correct blocks, etc.
> 
> 2) You gradually start to perform the tech at a quicker pace. The attack is coming in a bit quicker and you're executing your defense quicker. More pressure is added.
> 
> 3) Your attacker is actively resisting. He is not letting you perform your textbook tech. Basically, you, as the defender, have to really make the tech work.
> 
> Like I said, the link is alot to read, but it gives a good idea of the FM.


 
My apologies, but what is the alternative way?  How could there be anything very different for training?


----------



## MJS

marlon said:


> My apologies, but what is the alternative way? How could there be anything very different for training?


 
I'm sorry, I'm not sure what you're asking me?  Are you asking, if people dont train the way mentioned, then how do they train?  If thats the question....I'd say they'd never move past what I said in #1.  The attacker is 'compliant' meaning they just punch you and then stand like a statue, while you blast away with your technique.  I'd say they would also not provide you with a realistic attack.  Nothing pisses me off more, when someone goes to choke me and its a shoulder massage, not a choke.  Sorry, but even when you're 'drilling' the attack should be realistic.   At least if you're doing a choke, put your hands on the neck. LOL.


----------



## Inkspill

MJS said:


> Its alot to read, but here:
> http://www.straightblastgym.com/aliveness101.html
> 
> In a nutshell, the way techs should be practiced would be:
> 
> 1) drilling. When you initially learn the tech, there is no resistance, everything goes according to plan. This is the learning phase. You make sure that you're footwork is right, stances, that you're hitting to the correct spot, for max. results, correct blocks, etc.
> 
> 2) You gradually start to perform the tech at a quicker pace. The attack is coming in a bit quicker and you're executing your defense quicker. More pressure is added.
> 
> 3) Your attacker is actively resisting. He is not letting you perform your textbook tech. Basically, you, as the defender, have to really make the tech work.
> 
> Like I said, the link is alot to read, but it gives a good idea of the FM.


 

sweet, we already do this at my school


----------



## Doc

MJS said:


> [yt]Q6viFnCBym8[/yt]
> 
> 
> [yt]uNG3qKwFrzg[/yt]
> 
> Thoughts, comments, likes, dislikes.



Real problems aplenty, based on how most are taught without the elements of street realism, and an understanding of bio-mechanical function. Not anybody's fault, but just the way the information has been handed down for decades now.


----------



## Doc

punisher73 said:


> Reading some stuff from some of the original group of SGM Parker's students, this was one of the first techniques taught.  It was called "Kimono Grab" back then.
> 
> I have always liked the technique, I think it teaches some good stuff and is great for beginners to get a feel for fluidity with their hands.
> 
> I don't have the book with me, but in Ed Parker's first book "Kenpo Karate: Law of the Fist" there is a technique very similiar.  The main difference I noticed was that after the upward strike to the arms, you off step and hit with a raking backfist to the ribs before striking down onto the arms.
> 
> I have also heard (but never had confirmed) that Kimono Grab was a Prof. Chow technique that he had used when someone attempted to grab him.


When you say "Kimono Grab," you're dating yourself.  This was one of the "original" techniques Mr. Parker brought with him from Hawaii under Sifu Chow. They dropped the back-fist because instructors had trouble with the footwork. This technique, like most is way more complicated than it appears on the surface, when taught properly so it will actually function on the street in the aggressive fashion it implemented. Grabs, hugs, and holds in all forms and interpretations of commercial Kenpo Karate are taught in what I term a "sterile" form, over a functional one because of this complexity that requires knowledge not available to most instructors, because it was never passed down. As always, start with Psychology of Confrontation.


----------



## Doc

MJS said:


> I'm sorry, I'm not sure what you're asking me?  Are you asking, if people dont train the way mentioned, then how do they train?  If thats the question....I'd say they'd never move past what I said in #1.  The attacker is 'compliant' meaning they just punch you and then stand like a statue, while you blast away with your technique.  I'd say they would also not provide you with a realistic attack.  Nothing pisses me off more, when someone goes to choke me and its a shoulder massage, not a choke.  Sorry, but even when you're 'drilling' the attack should be realistic.   At least if you're doing a choke, put your hands on the neck. LOL.


I agree completely. I teach my students that speed and realism are mutually exclusive traits in training lessons, and that realism always trumps speed in the learning stages of the basic mechanics of the applications. I can "choke" you slowly, but I am still going to attack you, place my hands around your neck, and begin to squeeze. In the beginning, "speed" is not the issue, but "realism" will always be king.


----------



## Doc

MJS said:


> Theres 'Big Red' which is a huge, red binder, that has all of the techs. in the system.  Of course, this was a ref. tool.  Doc would be a good person to ask on this.
> 
> Whats in 'big red' isn't necessarily gospel.  I'm sure GM Parker taught everyone differently.  In other words, someone who was more interested in getting rank, and not really learning the system, per se, would probably get things one way.  Doc Chapel, who spent alot more in depth time with GM Parker, most likely got things differently.


While Mr. Parker kept a lot close to the vest as he was growing himself, he also put out there, or at the least "hinted" at some very significant information that, "should" have been picked up on by many and generate questions that Mr. Parker would have been glad to answer. Unfortunately, the system lapsed into a morass of quickly learned techniques primarily for the purpose of adding stripes to your belt, rather than knowledge to your noggin. 

Big Red was not even close to gospel, but instead a framework to begin discussions, and for school heads to build their "ideal" techniques from. Unfortunately "tailoring" became the norm and nobody learned anything the same, even within the same friggin school. So, Ideas became king, instead of a sound mechanical base of each technique to draw from, and to archive significant lessons and information. Thus the information never existed, and the little that did has been lost, for the most part.

According to Mr. Parker, the "ideal" technique was to be created by the head instructor for his group of students. HE was supposed to do the "tailoring," and create the functional model to work from. Instead,  most just read the description and said, "do it like that." No thinking involved, just learn what was in the Big Red Manual so you can move on.


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

ATACX GYM said:


> ^^^I like this guy!
> 
> I utterly agree with you in at least one area; there is a gargantuan difference between the idea that "Kenpo as a system is flawed" (which I completely disagree with) and saying:"My understanding of Kenpo is incomplete and therefore flawed." I would even add the caveat that my lack of pinnacle technical mastery and utter immaculate comprehension of Kenpo and anything else is so devastating that there are likely infinite variations and levels of my and our ignorance that we will NEVER alleviate.It's the path of attempting to alleviate my ignorance that is most rewarding to me.Like I tell my students and clients quite often:"I try to be less stupid and ignorant today than I was yesterday.I don't always succeed; but I always try."
> 
> However,a lack of flawless comprehension of Kenpo doesn't mean that I or many others aren't more than proficient in Kenpo (I know you didn't say that,I'm just making the point clear).Furthermore,my comments weren't about Kenpo the system,my comments were and are directed to the utility of the IP.Here is the essence of my position summed up in a few quick sentences:
> 
> The IP is inferior to the Functional Method because it isn't trained functionally,against real time resistance energy and motion.Therefore the functional expression of a Kenpo technique almost 100% of the time will look different than the IP variant of that same technique.,because the functional method is trained via sparring and other real world means in exactly the scenarios that a given technique is supposed to effectively address.The IP absolutely does not do this.Even if by some miracle one becomes competent using the IP? That same person is likely using a hybrid IP and functional method; and that person(s) would be MORE competent more quickly and more comprehensively using the functional method.
> 
> 
> Here's the IP Captured Twigs:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnxcbNP6Gf0&feature=related
> 
> 
> Here's one of the BETTER IP Captured Twigs variants:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a FUNCTIONAL basic Captured Twigs expression:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's the IP Alternatng Maces:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a Functional Alternating Maces
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See,there won't be THAT HUGE of a variance in effective combat expression of technique.The IP allows such a wide spectrum of expression because the practitioners of the IP don't have the litmus test,the reality check,of actually SPARRING with the IP technique.Witness boxing: Ali and Tyson have totally different expressions,but we can recognize when they jab and throw combos and we recognize their skill in their pursuit.
> 
> 95% of this discussion between the IP and the FUNCTIONAL METHOD will evaporate if the IP exponents start showing themselves SPARRING against all comers WITH THEIR IP TECHNIQUES.The results will not be the resounding confirmation of IP practicality that they might assume it will be.Not even the argument that "well,self-defense is different than sparring is" can save the proponents of this approach.Know why? THEY'RE RIGHT.SD is FOREVER different than SPARRING.But the catch is: the IP METHOD CAN'T WITHSTAND UNIVERSAL ENERGETIC SPARRING.Know why? THE IP METHOD'S TECHNIQUES ARE BASED ON YOUR ASSAILANT DOING THINGS IN THE "IDEAL PHASE" which COMPLETELY ELIMINATES REAL WORLD RESISTANCE.Therefore if you took 100 people and taught them the IP and it looked like the above techniques? They'll fail to adequately defend themselves most of the time.AND IT GETS WORSE NOT BETTER IN SD SCENARIOS.The converse is true using the functional method in any area,not just martial arts.


 
Just registered this... sorry for not responding earlier. Sitting here, reading it, particularly this part:

"*The IP is inferior to the Functional Method because it isn't trained functionally,against real time resistance energy and motion.Therefore the functional expression of a Kenpo technique almost 100% of the time will look different than the IP variant of that same technique*."

... my first thought is something like, "Well, duh. It's not meant to be." The Ideal Phase of any technique is just a demonstration starting point, so further discussion can be had about contextual application. Discussion about things like, applying functional training methods to application, and how application can be modified and adapted on the fly when stuff goes differently than planned. 

The Ideal Phase is a necessary part of kenpo, but one must not get stuck there. The starting line is a necessary part of the L.A. marathon, but after the gun goes off, you gotta move on... otherwise, folks just look silly milling around the starting line chatting about what it might be like to run a race, instead of moving their feet and running it.

I have been skim-reading your posts... I think that has done them a disservice. The quote of your I placed above in bold? Absolutely agree. Another way of saying the same thing is... someone can do 20 years of kenpo, or one year of kenpo, 20 times. If the understanding and application don't grow beyond the starting reference point the IP is meantr to provide, they are doing their kenpo -- and kenpo in general -- a significant disservice.


----------



## ATACX GYM

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> The Ideal Phase is a necessary part of kenpo, but one must not get stuck there. The starting line is a necessary part of the L.A. marathon, but after the gun goes off, you gotta move on... otherwise, folks just look silly milling around the starting line chatting about what it might be like to run a race, instead of moving their feet and running it.


 
Like I said...too many people completely misunderstand the simple fact that the FM/ALIVE method is also a thousand times better in every aspect of teaching.When you're going slow,learning the proper base and movement and breath essentials to execute whatever you're doing? Do it functionally.See,the IP's nonfunctional model teaches you inferior stances blows ignores breath control etc. and therefore even in its best manifestation teaches poor or at least questionable mechanics in every way,while insufficiently addressing all of the primary essentials for real world combat.The FM addresses everything in depth and detail,energetically,realistically,reliably,honestly,it's fun and healthy and a thousand times faster/deeper/more satisfying than the fake stuff.

I can take a complete n00b and have them doing light sparring with techniques that they'll actually be able to use in a fight within 20 minutes of entering my class.In 60 minutes I can have them striking taking down establishing mount gnp'ing reversing mount and escaping guard in a single flow.(I usually don't teach sub holds on the first day,I put a emphasis on position over submission for the first month unquestionably and for the first 6 months almost certainly.Of course,I start teaching submissions from the 2nd week in,but I still drill position than submission because not enough people appreciate the importance of the nuances and utility of each position on the ground AND each stance while standing).And they do this with confidence (my biggest problem is making sure that Momz doesn't let little Dre or Toya go home and whompalize on their siblings; the adults seem to be able to handle it quite well).All because of the FM.You CANNOT do that with the IP because it's functional teaching methods suck AND it's pedagogy sucks too.


----------



## ATACX GYM

Doc said:


> Real problems aplenty, based on how most are taught without the elements of street realism, and an understanding of bio-mechanical function. Not anybody's fault, but just the way the information has been handed down for decades now.


 

^^^From the man who spent the most time of anybody here directly with GGMEP.There ya are.Nuff said it's a wrap.


----------



## punisher73

Doc said:


> When you say "Kimono Grab," you're dating yourself.  This was one of the "original" techniques Mr. Parker brought with him from Hawaii under Sifu Chow. They dropped the back-fist because instructors had trouble with the footwork. This technique, like most is way more complicated than it appears on the surface, when taught properly so it will actually function on the street in the aggressive fashion it implemented. Grabs, hugs, and holds in all forms and interpretations of commercial Kenpo Karate are taught in what I term a "sterile" form, over a functional one because of this complexity that requires knowledge not available to most instructors, because it was never passed down. As always, start with Psychology of Confrontation.


 
I'm a young'n.  I just really enjoy the history of the arts, so I was not there while it was called that (probably wasn't even born yet...LOL).  

In the SL-4 version of this, do you utilize the backfist to the ribs with the appropriate footwork?


----------



## MJS

Doc said:


> Real problems aplenty, based on how most are taught without the elements of street realism, and an understanding of bio-mechanical function. Not anybody's fault, but just the way the information has been handed down for decades now.


 
I'm all ears, if you're willing to give a little clue on a) if you do this tech at your school, how you perform it and b) how to make the tech better, to get the most out of it.


----------



## MJS

ATACX GYM said:


> Like I said...too many people completely misunderstand the simple fact that the FM/ALIVE method is also a thousand times better in every aspect of teaching.When you're going slow,learning the proper base and movement and breath essentials to execute whatever you're doing? Do it functionally.See,the IP's nonfunctional model teaches you inferior stances blows ignores breath control etc. and therefore even in its best manifestation teaches poor or at least questionable mechanics in every way,while insufficiently addressing all of the primary essentials for real world combat.The FM addresses everything in depth and detail,energetically,realistically,reliably,honestly,it's fun and healthy and a thousand times faster/deeper/more satisfying than the fake stuff.
> 
> I can take a complete n00b and have them doing light sparring with techniques that they'll actually be able to use in a fight within 20 minutes of entering my class.In 60 minutes I can have them striking taking down establishing mount gnp'ing reversing mount and escaping guard in a single flow.(I usually don't teach sub holds on the first day,I put a emphasis on position over submission for the first month unquestionably and for the first 6 months almost certainly.Of course,I start teaching submissions from the 2nd week in,but I still drill position than submission because not enough people appreciate the importance of the nuances and utility of each position on the ground AND each stance while standing).And they do this with confidence (my biggest problem is making sure that Momz doesn't let little Dre or Toya go home and whompalize on their siblings; the adults seem to be able to handle it quite well).All because of the FM.You CANNOT do that with the IP because it's functional teaching methods suck AND it's pedagogy sucks too.


 
Ras,

I may/may not have asked you this before, but in any case, I'm going to ask again.   When you teach a technique, do you a) teach the IP and then make it more of a FM or b) do you go right to b?


----------



## Doc

punisher73 said:


> I'm a young'n.  I just really enjoy the history of the arts, so I was not there while it was called that (probably wasn't even born yet...LOL).
> 
> In the SL-4 version of this, do you utilize the backfist to the ribs with the appropriate footwork?



Hell yeah.


----------



## ATACX GYM

MJS said:


> Ras,
> 
> I may/may not have asked you this before, but in any case, I'm going to ask again.  When you teach a technique, do you a) teach the IP and then make it more of a FM or b) do you go right to b?


 

I usedto show the IP a lot more than I do nowadays,but sometimes I still show the IP as a way to teach my students to be alert for the kind of craptasticness that pemeates the arts,and I remind my students when we go to tourneys to scout our opposition.We have a big laugh about it,tbh.Then I go directy to "B". There IS no justification for starting with any form of nonfunctional expression period. In every regard,the FM is superior.In the introductory phase when you're showing perception stances movement? The FM is superior because you have a superior understanding of both the real world attacks,defenses,physical movements,and the kinds of things that need to be perceived AND you KNOW WHY that's the case.You can convey that to your students stat.Lol.If you take a outside block and a reverse punch? You can teach them how to block a wide variety of assualts with the block and crack your attacker with the reverse punch.It gives you a perception,depth,understanding,and versatility that is beyond the grasp of the IP exponents.I swear to God,I had many IP exponents vociferously and rudely tell me that I was doing Attacking Mace wrong because I did it not only from any block or no block at all,I did it not only from the inside,but from any direction,seated,from the clinch,on the ground,with and against any hand held weapon,etc. etc. until all the primary basics in my Gym were addressed.I am NOT kidding.One guy went so far as to put it on video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNeEYgqQb6M&feature=watch_response


I get this kind of thing all the time.Swear tuh God.

Here is my response:





 




 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDxHsdUDLDU&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1kWv5GK8Fs&feature=related


----------



## ATACX GYM

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> Just registered this... sorry for not responding earlier. Sitting here, reading it, particularly this part:
> 
> "*The IP is inferior to the Functional Method because it isn't trained functionally,against real time resistance energy and motion.Therefore the functional expression of a Kenpo technique almost 100% of the time will look different than the IP variant of that same technique*."
> 
> ... my first thought is something like, "Well, duh. It's not meant to be." The Ideal Phase of any technique is just a demonstration starting point, so further discussion can be had about contextual application. Discussion about things like, applying functional training methods to application, and how application can be modified and adapted on the fly when stuff goes differently than planned.
> 
> The Ideal Phase is a necessary part of kenpo, but one must not get stuck there. The starting line is a necessary part of the L.A. marathon, but after the gun goes off, you gotta move on... otherwise, folks just look silly milling around the starting line chatting about what it might be like to run a race, instead of moving their feet and running it.


 

Now,what I'm about to say here might sound disrespectful,especially because you're probably my Kenpo senior...but it's not.I respect you,man.I like your posts.You definitely know whereof you speak.

BUT.

That was some horse puckey up there man.

The IDEA behind the IP is not only a TERRIFIC idea,it's COMMON SENSE.Idk of any other art other than capoeira and a few gungfu systems that have said:"Hey! Let's develope sequences that reflect the reality that SD encounters don't reflect the sparring reality that is likely to happen in training,gyms,dojos and stuff." Then we can spar with that stuff and have every bit as much confidence in our say Thundering Hammers Leaping Crance and Falcons of Force as we have in our blocks punches kicks and stuff.The problem is? You're supposed to SPAR with this stuff.We DON'T spar with this stuff by and large.And pow.Zero functional translatability.

Point blank? The whole arument about starting with IP and then putting it into context is bull crap.I mean...genuine unadulterated male cow feces from an over active male cow anus. If we're gonna have a discussion about something,let's talk about the something in question.You don't need to start with the intricacies of quantum singularity formulation when the conversation is focused on...tomato gardening.START WITH TOMATO GARDENING FOR CHRISSAKES.I mean...it's too simple. 
If the subject is tomato gardening and your talking about space/time/gravitational continuums formulations and fluctuations? Wth.And if I say..."Uhhh,this conversation doesn't have jack to do with tomato gardening" and your response is:"Well duh it's not meant to be." Frankly? YOU SUCK AT TOMATO GARDENING.Save all that other stuff for my manz Stephen Hawking and the Trekkers...and since I love Hawking and Trek? We'll be talking again in the future.But you need to get out mah damn garden rightboutnow and let in ole boi over here who's going innnn on the tomato gardening with hella potent right now methods and shows me why that's so and how to perpetually improve these methods.

The IP in its current form is NOT essential to Kenpo.The analogy of the starting line for the L.A. Marathon is incorrect.Know why? ALL THE MARATHONERS HAVE TRAINED TO RUN MARATHONS.They've run marathon distances.They've gotten their diet right,their training routines and partners right,their equipment,their study of the Marathon course,they've researched the experiences of other runners.In a word? THEY'RE FUNCTIONAL.

The IP IS NOT FUNCTIONAL.If it were,we wouldn't be having this conversation.A more apt analogy would be having a guy train for and line up at the starting line for the L.A. MARATHON here in L.A....when he's supposed to be competing in THE DECATHLON.IN EUROPE.It's that laughable of an assertion.It becomes even MORE laughable when you realize that all you have to do is take the FM to the IP SD sequences and POW!! No more disagreement.Maximum functionality.Radical redesigning of the SD because...IT WORKS NOW.Everything WORKS now.The teaching is infinitely better and infinitely more realistic in EVERY regard,and every single facet of EVERYTHING is better.And has SAME DAY APPLICABILITY.Can't beat it.The Ideal and the Functional have merged.We now have...THE FUNCTIONAL IDEAL.

Again,sorry if I come off disrespectful because I'm anything but that...just...that post was significantly off point imho.


----------



## punisher73

ATACX:

Your stuff works for you, great.

I think the problem lies in the fact that you are trying to compare apples and oranges and missing the point. The Ideal Phase, for one is being misdefined by your usage as it relates to the kenpo S-D techniques. If you think of the IP's as a scientific lab experiment, you isolate one thing to experiment and study and all the variables are known. You are throwing in multiple variables and then saying the experiment doesn't work. The IP wasn't meant to deal with those variables one at a time. Those come later and are addressed as other S-D techniques, that is why the techniques start "simpler" and then progress to the more complex.

The IP is meant to show you how to stop a right hand punch with significant momentum. The attacker is throwing his body forward as he throws the punch. This attack isn't a well balanced attack wherein the attacker throws it right out and then right back. You keep on applying sparring/sports attacks and missing the idea that the beginning ranks are showing you to deal with an untrained street thug throwing everything he has into that one punch. He has 100% commitment and is relying on your face to stop his momentum. I have yet to see you address this type of attack in your Attacking Mace video or in other criticisms of the IP's.

Back to the lab experiment, if I am running an experiment to test for the production of hydrogen gas and then test for nitrogen I don't say the experiment was flawed or wrong, I realize I was using the wrong analysis to look at the problem.


----------



## Inkspill

what I like about the ideal phase is the isolation, of my movements, the opponent, etc, along with practice visualizing the opponent, and the interaction between my movements and all the various angles and patterns and paths of motion.


it's nice to practice all these principles and concepts in this way as well as on the body. it's also good to get all my basics correct in this isolated ideal phase, I can go slow and train on my own and sharpen my movements. in the IP we get to practice the movements without adjustment.

we learn the template and make everything perfect, we're hitting the correct target, stepping to the correct direction on the clock, weapons formed correctly, stance correct, 

basically, we make sure all master key movements/BASICS are correct in the IP before moving into the realm of 'what if'. 

when the physical opponent is there, it's a very familiar place to be with all the practicing on my own with visualization, I also have been training to create certain reactions in the opponent, so it's a template for when I'm working on the body. I know that I need to drop low to hit X target with Y weapon because when I kicked his knee out he drops lower. so on the body I make sure that I hit the leg correctly to make the guy drop for the next strike.

I see the ideal phase is a study of chords and notes on your guitar at home, practice practice practice, melodies, tunes, songs, the 'street situation' is like going out and jamming with somebody playing an instrument on the street corner. they've got their tamborine and drum, and you play with them, just like we fit the situation in the gaseous state.

it's all about the 3 stages, states, and phases. you're not going to do very well if you skip IP and jump into trying to jam the first time you pick up a guitar.

I know these things from my own learning and when I've taught others various things. this is one of the best ways for people to learn anything, and having an IP doesn't mean you don't practice the other phases.


----------



## ATACX GYM

punisher73 said:


> ATACX:
> 
> Your stuff works for you, great.
> 
> I think the problem lies in the fact that you are trying to compare apples and oranges and missing the point. The Ideal Phase, for one is being misdefined by your usage as it relates to the kenpo S-D techniques. If you think of the IP's as a scientific lab experiment, you isolate one thing to experiment and study and all the variables are known. You are throwing in multiple variables and then saying the experiment doesn't work. The IP wasn't meant to deal with those variables one at a time. Those come later and are addressed as other S-D techniques, that is why the techniques start "simpler" and then progress to the more complex.
> 
> The IP is meant to show you how to stop a right hand punch with significant momentum. The attacker is throwing his body forward as he throws the punch. This attack isn't a well balanced attack wherein the attacker throws it right out and then right back. You keep on applying sparring/sports attacks and missing the idea that the beginning ranks are showing you to deal with an untrained street thug throwing everything he has into that one punch. He has 100% commitment and is relying on your face to stop his momentum. I have yet to see you address this type of attack in your Attacking Mace video or in other criticisms of the IP's.
> 
> Back to the lab experiment, if I am running an experiment to test for the production of hydrogen gas and then test for nitrogen I don't say the experiment was flawed or wrong, I realize I was using the wrong analysis to look at the problem.


 

^^^ANOTHER GOOD RESPONSE.I don't want people who are reading this or any of you guys I'm responding to with some vigor to mistake the vigor of my response for any personal disrespect or anything else like that.I'm enjoying this discussion and it gives me stuff to think about (as perhaps the length of my posts tend to attest).

However,there is a consistent and recurrent miscomprehension of my posts that keeps showing up in the responses of the IP defenders and exponents that I am going to have to address yet again.And this time I'm going to use your example,lab and all.I will also directly apply it to a beginner and here's where the differences really become a literal matter of empirical proof that torpedoes IP contentions.Btw 

See,it's ironic that you use the lab example because the FM is very very akin to the Scientific Method applied to teaching and combat.Observation,Hypothesis,Experimentation,Conclusion.That's the Scientific Method in a nutshell.I very often (just yesterday in fact) draw upon science and laboratory experiments as analogies.If you recall on KENPOTALK,I frequently referred to the "Kenpo Lab" when discussing DROPPING THE STORM.I and I alone repeatedly used that phrase so it's kinda ironic and cool that you're using it now...in DEFENSE of the IP which lab and scientific methodical application disqualifies from the realm of functionality and the superior model for teaching PERIOD much less teaching beginners.

Before I go in on the IP? Lemme say it yet again: If you love the IP? Yay and goodie goodie graham crackers for all of you who do.I mean that without an ounce of derision.Sallgood..No prob with me at all.However,when you make an assertion like "The IP is functional" or "The IP is essential because it teaches beginners basics",or even worse "You don't understand what the IP is" and that's parto or or THEE main reasons for your championing of the IP? See,2 of the 3--the functionality of the IP and whether or not I understand it--can be empirically upheld or disproven.The 3rd--the IP's utility in teaching the beginner basics--is extremely questionable,or at least objective reality can will and does prove that the FM is far better suited for that task too.

So here we go.



punisher73 said:


> ATACX:
> 
> Your stuff works for you, great.
> 
> I think the problem lies in the fact that you are trying to compare apples and oranges and missing the point. The Ideal Phase, for one is being misdefined by your usage as it relates to the kenpo S-D techniques. If you think of the IP's as a scientific lab experiment, you isolate one thing to experiment and study and all the variables are known. You are throwing in multiple variables and then saying the experiment doesn't work. The IP wasn't meant to deal with those variables one at a time. Those come later and are addressed as other S-D techniques, that is why the techniques start "simpler" and then progress to the more complex.


 
This is correct in only one way: I AM comparing apples and oranges because I'm comparing the FM--which works regularly and reliably--to the IP which DOESN'T.That's the point.See,the FM starts with exactly the scenario you described,but the maaaajor difference is that each component that comprises the experiment is far more accurately analyzed and grasped.Therefore WHATEVER the goal will be? The RESULTS AND APPROACH WILL BE SUPERIOR TO THE IP.Every single aspect and nuance is faaaar more realistically weighed and accounted for than anything that the IP does.It's the FACT that the IP will advocate a defense against the omg whomptastic roundhouse right of doom but only if said omg whomptastic roundhouse right of doom is thrown in the perfect way to allow the defender to counter with horrific combinations of slaughterhouse kenpo that will only work if your opponent is kind enough to turn into the fighting flesh and blood statuesque rendition of August Rodin's THE THINKER and pose for you...that is the problem.See,the IDEAL scenario is not to be in combat in the first place,but if ya GOTTA be there? Train against the NON-IDEAL REALITY.This way you'll face far more common real world attacks and you'll be able to develope real world counters.

See,if a guy comes in with a fully committed omg whomptastic right roundhouse punch of doom and you recommend the IP block? That's great.Hope it works.Problem? No energy timing or motion.So what you're doing is...YOU'RE PRACTICING AGAINST AN ATTACK THAT WON'T BE DELIVERED LIKE THAT IN EVEN THE BEST CASE SCENARIOS.This is something that the FM covers right off top.Even more important? The FM realistically covers the ideal attack too AT THE SAME TIME that it covers the "ideal" attack.The IP has NO answer to this,and thus SIGNIFICANTLY UNDERPREPARES its adherents,if not totally compromises them from out the gate by teachingfirst TERRIBLE teaching methods, horrible habits,incorrect body mechanics,self-destructive mindsets by getting the student to adhere to illusions instead of reality,etc.

So going back to the lab experiment and your question about stopping the right roundhouse? You guys would only look at the right roundhouse...when it's delivered PERFECTLY DESIGNED FOR YOU TO STOP IT.That is NOT how an attacker will throw that blow.That blow comes WHEN THE ATTACKER HAS REASON TO BELIEVE IT WILL SUCCEED.This means it WON'T EVER come in a way that's perfectly situated for you to block and run off DTS on it as it's written.However...in addressing this reality? YOU HAVE AUTOMATICALLY addressed the perfect ideal scenario too.Because the non-ideal is harder to do.If Floyd Mayweather can block Sugar Shane's right hook? He'll block mine and yours too...cuz our hooks aren't as good as Sugar Shane's.And if we were ever stupid enough to throw the untrained omg whomptastic right roundhouse of doom at Floyd? He'd have enough time to laugh,set up a video camera,come back to us,roll the hook and our knock our damn head clean off for doing something as stupid as that.

The IP completely ignores that reality and developes asinine defenses against fantasy attacks.Don't believe me? Observe:


This is how IP exponents teach and apply the IP defense against the step through roundhouse omg whomptastic right hook of doom, applying the famous signature FIVE SWORDS (one of my favorite techniques) technique:





 
Here's some more if you think..."ahhhh...that's just a fluke!"





 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mimfERzviP8&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeBlWiSXdp0&feature=related


Now sit back and marinate on the anusness we just observed.Absorb the wakkness.Meditate on the booboo.THIS IS WHAT YOU ADVOCATE IN THE IP.

Now...check the FM out:

THIS IS HOW YOU TEACH FUNCTIONAL DEFENSE





 
My manz Floyd Mayweather Jr. showing you how it's done.





 
Ohhhh but you're prolly thinking that just because it's boxing this somehow invalidates the exact same defense from a skilled right hooker because the blow is the omg whomptastic roundhouse right of doom.WRONG.If you trained functionally,you'd know that the LESS skilled punch is EVEN EASIER to evade.Matta fact? The MT block against a high kick works scrumptiously against this punch too.But you might say..."ahhh it's Muay Thai." I'm sure we'd agree that where the technique originates from is IRRELEVANT,the only relevancy here is:"Did I stop a real world punch trying to knock my head off?" But just in case people screech about the attack not being maximally anus,I said okay.I'll indulge you there too.





 

But nnnnoooooo what if I didn't do the DTS exactly RIGHT and guys beef because of that...completely missing the fact that I utterly HALT the attack and counter devastatingly.Well,howzabout TONY BLAUER showing us:





 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeJQDlzC1Wg&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guMBml28pDs&feature=related

Which looks remarkably like ya boi ATACX doing:





 




 

And there ya are.See,the flowery words and pretty phrases of those people championing the IP nonfunctional ineffective or less effective methods sounds GREAT...all the way up until you start applying it and comparing and contrasting with the FM/ALIVE method.There is simply absolutely NO PLACE that the IP is even remotely as good in any area as the FM/ALIVE method is.The overwhelming,devastating truth of the FM's superiority over the IP and the glaringly ludicrous nonfunctionality of the IP becomes instantly apparent the moment you show a real time,real world video featuring the defenses and attacks championed by the IP exponents and contrast them with the actually effective,actually functional FM/ALIVE method.That simple.

In every single regard,from technical instruction to addressing the actual attack being mounted against us to the counters,the FM unquestionably TOWERS over the IP in EVERY MEASURABLE WAY.Teach n00bs real defenses against real attacks and watch them blossom,don't waste time with the fantasy goofy fake stuff...cuz that's covered too in the real world defenses anyway but the converse is NEVER the case.

Again I mean this with respect,but ya boi ATACX is bluntly honest with his responses.


----------



## ATACX GYM

Inkspill said:


> what I like about the ideal phase is the isolation, of my movements, the opponent, etc, along with practice visualizing the opponent, and the interaction between my movements and all the various angles and patterns and paths of motion.
> 
> 
> it's nice to practice all these principles and concepts in this way as well as on the body. it's also good to get all my basics correct in this isolated ideal phase, I can go slow and train on my own and sharpen my movements. in the IP we get to practice the movements without adjustment.
> 
> we learn the template and make everything perfect, we're hitting the correct target, stepping to the correct direction on the clock, weapons formed correctly, stance correct,
> 
> basically, we make sure all master key movements/BASICS are correct in the IP before moving into the realm of 'what if'.
> 
> when the physical opponent is there, it's a very familiar place to be with all the practicing on my own with visualization, I also have been training to create certain reactions in the opponent, so it's a template for when I'm working on the body. I know that I need to drop low to hit X target with Y weapon because when I kicked his knee out he drops lower. so on the body I make sure that I hit the leg correctly to make the guy drop for the next strike.
> 
> I see the ideal phase is a study of chords and notes on your guitar at home, practice practice practice, melodies, tunes, songs, the 'street situation' is like going out and jamming with somebody playing an instrument on the street corner. they've got their tamborine and drum, and you play with them, just like we fit the situation in the gaseous state.
> 
> it's all about the 3 stages, states, and phases. you're not going to do very well if you skip IP and jump into trying to jam the first time you pick up a guitar.
> 
> I know these things from my own learning and when I've taught others various things. this is one of the best ways for people to learn anything, and having an IP doesn't mean you don't practice the other phases.


 

Every phase of what you mentioned...the envisioning,the stance,the option of moving at your own pace,the BASICS,I mean EVERYTHING...is done in an infinitely superior way by the FM.It's not about jumping phases.What happens is that the FM is SOOO SUPERIOR to the nonfunctional IP that the LEARNING CURVE IS GREATLY SHORTENED.So what would take an IP guy 20 years to learn would be equalled or surpassed by a FM guy IN ONE YEAR.This is NOT an exaggeration.

You CANNOT train yourself REALISTICALLY to cause certain reactions in your opponent if you haven't trained realistically functionally and have had experience with causing your opponent to react in a specific way.That's like trying to swim on dry land and NEVER getting in the water yet claiming that you can swim.In the Pacific Ocean.During a storm.While in the grip of a rip tide.It's just...asinine and empirically refutable.See...take a guy whose ONLY done the IP goofy stuff for 6 months and he will still suck.Period.I can take that SAME GUY and make a him a FIGHTER in ONE MONTH.Hell he'd learn more in 6 LESSONS with me and the FM than he would with anybody else sticking only to the IP...in 6 months with the IP.And any other FM instructor could sensibly and truthfully make the same claim.That's the difference.The IP has cute flowery pretty words and stuff but zero relatability translateability and real world functionality.The FM is superior EVERYWHERE.You like playing the guitar? Imagine somebody telling you to IDEALLY play the guitar...on the freakin oboe.Imagine somebody telling you that if you practice with the xylophone,you will be able to put in context when it comes time to play the guitar.Imagine telling AXE from what was it...Guns n Roses?...that he could IDEALLY play his axe better if he got practiced with the HARMONICA.That's the sillyness of your argument championing and defending the IP.

How about we ideally play the guitar if we're trying to...play the guitar.Howzabout everything we do be focused on playing the guitar well.From concept to application.You know what? We'll be able to play da hell out that guitar.It's a miracle.But if we start with the damn oboe or harmonica and ideall try to contextualize that into the guitar when we're supposed to play in the band that night? Yeah...sucktasticness will ensue.And there ya are.


----------



## ATACX GYM

Doc said:


> Real problems aplenty, . Not anybody's fault, but just the way the information has been handed down for decades now.


 
^^^^^Did yall read that? The Kenpo Doc of Gitdown said..."Real problems aplenty,based on how most are taught without the elements of street realism, and an understanding of bio-mechanical function." If you add these elements,what have you got? FUNCTIONALITY.Omg plus ohmystarsngarters.It's a wrap.If you add that to your IP? YOU.ARE.FUNCTIONAL.Game over it's a wrap.Will you look like me or will I look like you? Nope.We're expressing similar core concepts not becoming carbon copies of each other.But will we all be functional? YES.

Alrighty then.Next.


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

ATACX GYM said:


> Now,what I'm about to say here might sound disrespectful,especially because you're probably my Kenpo senior...but it's not.I respect you,man.I like your posts.You definitely know whereof you speak.
> 
> BUT.
> 
> That was some horse puckey up there man.
> 
> The IDEA behind the IP is not only a TERRIFIC idea,it's COMMON SENSE.Idk of any other art other than capoeira and a few gungfu systems that have said:"Hey! Let's develope sequences that reflect the reality that SD encounters don't reflect the sparring reality that is likely to happen in training,gyms,dojos and stuff." *Then we can spar with that stuff and have every bit as much confidence in our say Thundering Hammers Leaping Crance and Falcons of Force as we have in our blocks punches kicks and stuff.The problem is? You're supposed to SPAR with this stuff.We DON'T spar with this stuff by and large.And pow.Zero functional translatability.*
> 
> Point blank?* The whole arument about starting with IP and then putting it into context is bull crap.I mean*...genuine unadulterated male cow feces from an over active male cow anus. If we're gonna have a discussion about something,let's talk about the something in question.You don't need to start with the intricacies of quantum singularity formulation when the conversation is focused on...tomato gardening.START WITH TOMATO GARDENING FOR CHRISSAKES.I mean...it's too simple.
> If the subject is tomato gardening and your talking about space/time/gravitational continuums formulations and fluctuations? Wth.And if I say..."Uhhh,this conversation doesn't have jack to do with tomato gardening" and your response is:"Well duh it's not meant to be." Frankly? YOU SUCK AT TOMATO GARDENING.Save all that other stuff for my manz Stephen Hawking and the Trekkers...and since I love Hawking and Trek? We'll be talking again in the future.But you need to get out mah damn garden rightboutnow and let in ole boi over here who's going innnn on the tomato gardening with hella potent right now methods and shows me why that's so and how to perpetually improve these methods.
> 
> *The IP in its current form is NOT essential to Kenpo*.*The analogy of the starting line for the L.A. Marathon is incorrect.Know why? ALL THE MARATHONERS HAVE TRAINED TO RUN MARATHONS.They've run marathon distances.They've gotten their diet right,their training routines and partners right,their equipment,their study of the Marathon course,they've researched the experiences of other runners.In a word? THEY'RE FUNCTIONAL.*
> 
> The IP IS NOT FUNCTIONAL.If it were,we wouldn't be having this conversation.A more apt analogy would be having a guy train for and line up at the starting line for the L.A. MARATHON here in L.A....when he's supposed to be competing in THE DECATHLON.IN EUROPE.It's that laughable of an assertion.It becomes even MORE laughable when you realize that all you have to do is take the FM to the IP SD sequences and POW!! No more disagreement.Maximum functionality.Radical redesigning of the SD because...IT WORKS NOW.Everything WORKS now.The teaching is infinitely better and infinitely more realistic in EVERY regard,and every single facet of EVERYTHING is better.And has SAME DAY APPLICABILITY.Can't beat it.The Ideal and the Functional have merged.We now have...THE FUNCTIONAL IDEAL.
> 
> Again,sorry if I come off disrespectful because I'm anything but that...just...that post was significantly off point imho.


 
Sorry, but you are clearly incorrect, and it's OK, as long as you can justify it in your own mind. The Ideal Phase serves a purpose within the system, as per Mr. Parker himself. It is to encapsulate the application of basics as expressions of the concepts and principles of motion. They are designed to be mini laboratories, in which discussions take place around how natural weapons are deployed for a specific efffect, within a given context. That is the FUNCTIONAL definition of the ideal phase of any self-defense technique within the Parker system. His words -- not mine -- are that, if you ever try to use 5 Swords against a punch, then you have missed the point of the system entirely. The techniques are not meant to teach this-for-that solutions to attacks, making the whole "applying the ideal, functionally" position a moot one. They are meant to teach you how to move. And, specifically, how to move in relationship to an ever-changing attackers actions and reactions to the flow of impact and energy in an altercation.

Ya know something marathon runners do? Study technique. The technique of breathing; technique of gait, and modifying gait to levels of fatigue. etc. They study how to best utilize arms during swing phases of running, how to best land their heel, how high to raise their feet for ground clearance before kicking it forward, all of it. In running, they do this in clinics, or seminars, or with lotsa reading and experimentation. In fact, if you ever get really bored and have too much time on your hands, apply for a years subscription to the NSCA's or ASCM's research publication journals... hours of boring reading about one manner of movement versus another. They (runners) are functional AFTER they address the technical details... otherwise, they hurt themselves. Foot slap versus heel-toe? Have to learn it some time before they start putting dozens of miles on their sneakers. Otherwise, they jack their bodies up, and never become runners worth a piss.

In kenpo, these "how to clinics" are the instructional sessions where the ideal is used to demonstrate a principle theme, then successive coursework looks at either adapting the Ideal to a number of contingencies (what ifs), or at adjusting operational biomechanics to move the application of the basics within the technique to "even if" levels of performance. 

The piece I think you're missing is the in-between. Yes, you can teach kenpo basics to someone, and start them off immediately in fighting to apply them... best way to teach someone to learn how to swim is to throw them in the water. BUT!!! that will NOT develop an Olympic-level expertise. Breaking it down to having them work on kicking in the pool, stroke past their body, lifting their arm out of the water just so, placing it back in the water just so, how the hand MUST be formed to move the body optimally accross the surface of the water while minimizing drag by swimming too deeply under the surface... these are all technical aspects that are addressed in training, that must be attended to slowly, and engrained properly, in order for a swimmer to go from a weekend water-hole puddle-jumper, to a high school competitor, to a competitive level college swimmer, to an Olympic hopeful. Coaches break down the minutae, because both God and the Devil are in the details. That breakdown takes place, in kenpo, in the Ideal Phase discussions. 

You are only half right. If I just want to develop a guy who can defend himself against a broad range of attacks, I'm not even going to teach him kenpo. I'm going to show him some kickboxing, a couple wrestling maneuvers and finishing holds, then put gloves on him and start kicking his ***! Then for the next level of training, I'm going to bring in a couple buddies, and we're just gonna jump him a couple times a week, with a little time between beatings to heal. When all is said and done, he will be able to apply a small range of options against a lot of different possibilities. But he still won't be a *kenpoist*.

Mr. Parker called kenpo, "The thinking mans martial art". And the lessons contained in the starting point of the IP, then later in the extrapolations that explore application of the core concepts and principles accross contexts and scenarios, is where the thinking takes place. Think back to the stages of learning... the first being "Embryonic." Adult learning theory applied to complex coordinative maneuvers with a multiplicity of variations possible from any starting point requires a... ummm... what's the things I'm looking for... oh yeah STARTING POINT!!!

If I put gloves, a mouthpiece and cup on a guy, and start knocking the bejeezus out of him, he will innately start trying to keep his hands between my fists and his head. But that doesn't make it kenpo. At some point, I have to stop whupping on him and say, "Here... when I do this to you, try this in response to protect yourself". That the Ideal... a discussion about "How to". During that same chat, I might introduce him to the idea of "angle of incidence", getting his blocks to stop my punches at perpendicular angles of contact; or I might introduce him to the differences between a parry and a block; or to counter-attacking me by throwing things at diffferent height zones, instead of always trying to punch down the pipe (all concepts and principles of motion). When I next resume throwing bombs at his head to make sure he uses the tools I just gave him, that's functional. 

Sparring with a technique? Nah. Technique application is meant to be injurious. FMA has interweaving hand patterns that fit that rapid-fire repeated attack sequencing function just fine, without compromising the intensity of ownership and injury-reliance built into the Parker system. I would offer that, having watched your videos of applying SD techs to sparring, you have already sacrificed the learning field for C&P like "strike manipulation", "contact manipulation", and "control manipulation" that are core essential aspects to understanding the application of kenpo in personal combat. Yet, while sparring, you could ostensibly use them all. Conundrum, eh?

I don't mind redesigning self-defense techniques -- hell, that's what they are for. You are supposed to reach a point in your studies where you stop waiting for the answer to be handed to you, and set out to seek better quality answers on your own... both within the system, and without -- Mr. Parker was an avid student of the arts, always exploring and absorbing, right up to his last days. My objection is _modification before understanding_. My big chubby for self-defense techniques has always been Purpose -- what is the Purpose of this technique? Everytime I asked Mr. Parker to walk me through a technique, he opened the discussion with the phrase, "This technique is meant to teach you how to... [insert some specific skill about here]". The things were, "generate power from your legs, and transfer it to a whipping action with your arms", or, "start your attacker backpeddling, and not let the pressure up until you're ready to release him", or "introduce you to ways for getting past a guy who is trying to block you from getting through a doorway (the techniques from that conversation were Unfurling Crane and Flashing Wings, btw)". Not once... NOT ONE TIME!!! did he ever say or imply that the technique, as designed, was meant to be a self-contained self-defense scenario, as in "this is a defense against a choke". The purpose of Crashing Wings was to teach the student that it is easier to mess with a guys balance if you marry it to your own, first... NOT as a defense against a bearhug from behind. The Purpose of Lone Kimono was to teach the beginner "the lesson of Bridges -- anything extending between Point A and Point B is a bridge, and bridges are meant to be broken." Twin Kimono? To power figure-8 upper carriage momentum from action generated in the lower carriage. NOT a defense against a push or grab. The moves as reactions are finite. The concepts and principles, once internalized, are globally applicable, accross contexts. A Boxer with his back to the ropes can throw a flurry using Mr. Parkers "purpose" from Twin Kimono, and use the footwork to make his hooks land like thunder as he chisels his way out of the corner. A grappler can apply this to how he shrimps, creating momentum through his whole body, and not just wiggling one part. The techniques are limited -- the C&P are universally applicable, limited only by the understanding of the practitioner, first off, and their ingenuity, second.

Rather than being a solution that's ever supposed to be taken so seriously as an end-all, they a starting places for conversation about how to use your body, skillfully and intelligently, in a given context, in relationship to circumstances dictated either by the attacker, or by us from how we hit or moved the attacker... or ourselves, or a change in the environment.

I have been chuckling about all the discourse on Captured Twigs, recalling a time I asked him -- notebook in hand and ready to write -- what the purpose of the technique was. His response was, "to teach beginners to do SOMETHING, not just stand there and freeze like a deer in the headlights." Have heard that echoed since then by a couple of his seniors, who were all way closer to him than I ever was. Considering how expansive some of his answers could be, I haven't tried to be good at CT since. Just do SOMETHING.

I certainly don't see any point in turning my back on someone in sparring and trying to apply it there. I would rather spend the time drilling on turning to face my work, then getting really good at leaving my back to an attacker.

But hey... it's a starting point. Just like it was meant to be. A starting point in the Embryonic stage of learning. You know... embryo... not even a baby yet... the START of an organisms journey into a given field of experience.

Oh. One more thing. The Embryonic learning stage isn't a static stage; it changes with introduction to new material, and new applications of old material. You could take an expert-level practitioner -- say, a black belt -- and demonstrate a new manner of applying an old movement, that reflects a new way of doing it based on a principle or concept they may not have been exposed to before, and that expert-level practitioner could be said to be embryonic in their understanding and application of that new-to-them C&P.

In short, you're horribly incorrect in shooting down the "IP as a starting point" thing. It was Mr. Parkers contention that learning had to start somewhere, and the starting point function of the IP is internally consistent with Mr. Parkers descriptions of his own art. But it's your opinion, and you're entitled to it. In kenpo, we just call it "tailoring", and it often gets done early on by folks who never got the whole picture, and so have to tweak it to make it work or to be at peace with the material in their model of the world.

Cute story (for me)... most of the guys prolly already heard it on here. I have never liked the extensions for my own reasons, so made up my own.... take a dozen or so judo throws and train the hell out of them, take the best "mexican hat dances" that are in the extensions, a couple finishing holds, and some power-breaking blows, and re-write them: Base tech + throw+ tap-dance to finishing hold or "Hulk Smash" shot, then screw covering out... draw your sidearm, and use the unconscious or deceased body for cover as you scan the environment for the next target. Worked great for the contexts I was training in and for. Mr. Parker called me on it, and made me demo my take on his system. At the end, he complimented me on it. Also added a caveat, "Just don't call it Ed Parker's Kenpo... I got a lotta guys paying me a lot of money for that name". 

Take home lesson? If you change it, it's yours. Some would say, if you HAVE TO change it, you probably never "got it" in the first place... that things not broken don't need fixing. Mr. Parker didn't say that, though he DID say, on multiple occasions, that everybody has different understandings, and everybody can only do the best they can, with what they have to work with. Some approaches fit different contexts better than others. But if you make such substantial modifications to a body of work, such that it no longer reflects the originators intent around his own creation, at least have the decency to drop his moniker from the end product. 

"I can tell you what to think, or teach you HOW to think. I can teach you a move, or teach you HOW to move." -- SGM Ed Parker, Sr. 

Kenpo is NOT the sequence of moves... never has been; the sequences were just there so we would have a common media of discussion within which to explore HOW one ought to move, in order to best utilize the bodys best potential. Kenpo is about HOW to move. I see people all the time doing the sequences, but failing at moving the way Mr. Parker tried ad nauseum to coach people to move.

I wonder how many swim *coaches* are banging their heads against the wall in frustration, because no matter how many times they tell the immensely talented mook in the pool how to twist his wrist while hiking his opposite hip to gain more skate across the surface in order to improve his time, the guy just doesn't get it. The *athlete* is still convinced the path to becoming a better *technician* is just a matter of ten more laps, with more intensity.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

ATACX GYM said:


> ^^^^^Did yall read that? The Kenpo Doc of Gitdown said..."Real problems aplenty,based on how most are taught without the elements of street realism, and an understanding of bio-mechanical function." If you add these elements,what have you got? FUNCTIONALITY.Omg plus ohmystarsngarters.It's a wrap.If you add that to your IP? YOU.ARE.FUNCTIONAL.Game over it's a wrap.Will you look like me or will I look like you? Nope.We're expressing similar core concepts not becoming carbon copies of each other.But will we all be functional? YES.
> 
> Alrighty then.Next.


 
Ya know... I met Doc on this very forum, about ten years ago. He is the only kenpoist I know if who gets more geeky about correct biomechanics than I do. I ain't nearly on his mat enough, first cuzza being too far away, now cuzza trying to feed my family before the savings runs out.

But, in short, I will offer this: While he agrees with you in principle, you have no idea what his words translate to in hands-on. He will be the first to argue there are correct and incorrect ways of moving and training. And sparring with the techniques, as you describe, ain't the solution he has in mind while agreeing with you that the mainstream way of handling it is inherently broken. You got brains and you got talent. If you're up for having your mind altered in a good way, contact the man and go see him for a chat. You will have a new appreciation for just how much bad kenpo is really out there, and how involved the process of relearning and retraining to get good at it really is. And how much of the 'kenpo' we learned along the way needed more work to begin with.

Gotta go make some money. Be well.


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## MJS

ATACX GYM said:


> I usedto show the IP a lot more than I do nowadays,but sometimes I still show the IP as a way to teach my students to be alert for the kind of craptasticness that pemeates the arts,and I remind my students when we go to tourneys to scout our opposition.We have a big laugh about it,tbh.Then I go directy to "B". There IS no justification for starting with any form of nonfunctional expression period. In every regard,the FM is superior.In the introductory phase when you're showing perception stances movement? The FM is superior because you have a superior understanding of both the real world attacks,defenses,physical movements,and the kinds of things that need to be perceived AND you KNOW WHY that's the case.You can convey that to your students stat.Lol.If you take a outside block and a reverse punch? You can teach them how to block a wide variety of assualts with the block and crack your attacker with the reverse punch.It gives you a perception,depth,understanding,and versatility that is beyond the grasp of the IP exponents.I swear to God,I had many IP exponents vociferously and rudely tell me that I was doing Attacking Mace wrong because I did it not only from any block or no block at all,I did it not only from the inside,but from any direction,seated,from the clinch,on the ground,with and against any hand held weapon,etc. etc. until all the primary basics in my Gym were addressed.I am NOT kidding.One guy went so far as to put it on video.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNeEYgqQb6M&feature=watch_response
> 
> 
> I get this kind of thing all the time.Swear tuh God.
> 
> Here is my response:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDxHsdUDLDU&feature=related
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1kWv5GK8Fs&feature=related


 

Hey Ras,

Just watched that first clip.  Yes, thats Clyde.  He, and a few other Tatumites, used to be members here.  Perhaps this is best saved for the IP technique thread, but anyways...I'll say it here.  He commented to you in one of those quotes, that there is always another IP tech to fall back on, in the event something goes wrong with the first IP tech.  For myself, I teach the IP.  But, I dont harp on it for 50yrs like some people.  And thats their choice.  I teach the IP, and then *I* like to move on so as to get people to thinking outside the box.  Using the basics, I'll cover other options, possible attacks, etc.  I'm not looking for another IP, and frankly, I dont understand why people get so bound by the IPs.  Some people talk about internalizing the techs.  How long does that take, given the fact that we have hundreds of them?  A few months?  A year? 30yrs?  IMO, whats more important to internalize, is the basics, so when the poop hits the fan, you will fall back on instinct, rather than have to sort thru a list of techs.  

I think you and I are both getting people to the FM, you're just going on a quicker route, which is fine.


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## Doc

MJS said:


> I'm all ears, if you're willing to give a little clue on a) if you do this tech at your school, how you perform it and b) how to make the tech better, to get the most out of it.



In these type of "hands on" assaults, the Psychology of Confrontation teaches us the Primary Initial Goal (P.I.G.) is "intimidation." I ask my students all the time first, "What's the PIG?" and second, "What does he need to do to accomplish his PIG?"

The answer significantly changes the dynamics of a simple sterile studio grab, to a strike with the open hand, then followed by the actual grab. "A grab is never JUST a grab." In reality the attacker is trying to grab quickly to gain control, and the open hand strike serves the dual purpose of knocking you off balance, (a form of control), and whatever physical and emotional discomfort the strike imparts as well, as the attacker attempts to dominate the victim psychologically and physically, and "feels" them out for a reaction. He is anticipating no retaliatory reaction from the victim, but is prepared with an additional assault in case he has misjudged the victims demeanor.

Thus the scenario is designed to teach how to absorb the precursor strike, and the accompanying Body Momentum that drives you rearward, and recover and establish a sound Platform married to a structured Upper Platform, in preparation for retaliation while lulling the attacker into a false sense of security that he has been successful in his intimidation tactic.

The "how" requires specific footwork, along with specific PAM's (Platform Aligning Mechanisms) on the Lower Platform, in conjunction with very specific arm movement Indices or Indexes of the upper body to align and marry the Platforms, and prepare for an unanticipated counter that will;

1. Disrupt his Visual Cortex Sensor
2. Create Spatial Distortion
3. Change the shape of the hand sensor to put his upper platform into a Disassociated State.
4. Control his width, and negate his opposite hand.
5. Control his height through a minor manipulation of the hand/wrist.
6. Control his depth through a minor manipulation of the arm/shoulder.

All accomplished by moving off the Line of Resistance, in an instant while storing Torque Energy in our Lower Platform that can be unleashed and returned to drive the lead hand strike, which sets up the Index Break.

In my teaching, we have scrapped the word "Ideal" because the term is subjective. In out "Default" scenario technique execution, the Default Techniques is designed to take into consideration minor adjustments that may need to be made, thus eliminating spurious "what if" questions, and any serious alteration is addressed in additional Default Scenarios of execution lessons.

Thus the Default Technique serves as a Functional Archive of study material, for present and future generations of students, as an "encyclopedia" of information. Any adjustments in the Encyclopedia are made by the experienced and knowledge of the hierarchy of our system, and the same occurs with the precursor "Dictionary" level of Technique information. Thus Techniques are multi-tiered moving from Dictionary Techniques, to Encyclopedia Techniques, while insuring all are supremely functional, and lessons learned at the Dictionary Stage are carried into the Encyclopedia Stage to make them easier to understand and physically digest. This cuts against the grain of "Kenpo Karate" because we have a "hard" curriculum that allows adjustments only for Geometrical Discrepancies of height, girth, mass, and gender, and those individual adjustments are taught within the framework of the Default Scenario to the individuals who are in need of a tailored mechanism, by someone qualified to make those adjustments.


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## marlon

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> Sorry, but you are clearly incorrect, and it's OK, as long as you can justify it in your own mind. The Ideal Phase serves a purpose within the system, as per Mr. Parker himself. It is to encapsulate the application of basics as expressions of the concepts and principles of motion. They are designed to be mini laboratories, in which discussions take place around how natural weapons are deployed for a specific efffect, within a given context. That is the FUNCTIONAL definition of the ideal phase of any self-defense technique within the Parker system. His words -- not mine -- are that, if you ever try to use 5 Swords against a punch, then you have missed the point of the system entirely. The techniques are not meant to teach this-for-that solutions to attacks, making the whole "applying the ideal, functionally" position a moot one. They are meant to teach you how to move. And, specifically, how to move in relationship to an ever-changing attackers actions and reactions to the flow of impact and energy in an altercation.
> 
> Ya know something marathon runners do? Study technique. The technique of breathing; technique of gait, and modifying gait to levels of fatigue. etc. They study how to best utilize arms during swing phases of running, how to best land their heel, how high to raise their feet for ground clearance before kicking it forward, all of it. In running, they do this in clinics, or seminars, or with lotsa reading and experimentation. In fact, if you ever get really bored and have too much time on your hands, apply for a years subscription to the NSCA's or ASCM's research publication journals... hours of boring reading about one manner of movement versus another. They (runners) are functional AFTER they address the technical details... otherwise, they hurt themselves. Foot slap versus heel-toe? Have to learn it some time before they start putting dozens of miles on their sneakers. Otherwise, they jack their bodies up, and never become runners worth a piss.
> 
> In kenpo, these "how to clinics" are the instructional sessions where the ideal is used to demonstrate a principle theme, then successive coursework looks at either adapting the Ideal to a number of contingencies (what ifs), or at adjusting operational biomechanics to move the application of the basics within the technique to "even if" levels of performance.
> 
> The piece I think you're missing is the in-between. Yes, you can teach kenpo basics to someone, and start them off immediately in fighting to apply them... best way to teach someone to learn how to swim is to throw them in the water. BUT!!! that will NOT develop an Olympic-level expertise. Breaking it down to having them work on kicking in the pool, stroke past their body, lifting their arm out of the water just so, placing it back in the water just so, how the hand MUST be formed to move the body optimally accross the surface of the water while minimizing drag by swimming too deeply under the surface... these are all technical aspects that are addressed in training, that must be attended to slowly, and engrained properly, in order for a swimmer to go from a weekend water-hole puddle-jumper, to a high school competitor, to a competitive level college swimmer, to an Olympic hopeful. Coaches break down the minutae, because both God and the Devil are in the details. That breakdown takes place, in kenpo, in the Ideal Phase discussions.
> 
> You are only half right. If I just want to develop a guy who can defend himself against a broad range of attacks, I'm not even going to teach him kenpo. I'm going to show him some kickboxing, a couple wrestling maneuvers and finishing holds, then put gloves on him and start kicking his ***! Then for the next level of training, I'm going to bring in a couple buddies, and we're just gonna jump him a couple times a week, with a little time between beatings to heal. When all is said and done, he will be able to apply a small range of options against a lot of different possibilities. But he still won't be a *kenpoist*.
> 
> Mr. Parker called kenpo, "The thinking mans martial art". And the lessons contained in the starting point of the IP, then later in the extrapolations that explore application of the core concepts and principles accross contexts and scenarios, is where the thinking takes place. Think back to the stages of learning... the first being "Embryonic." Adult learning theory applied to complex coordinative maneuvers with a multiplicity of variations possible from any starting point requires a... ummm... what's the things I'm looking for... oh yeah STARTING POINT!!!
> 
> If I put gloves, a mouthpiece and cup on a guy, and start knocking the bejeezus out of him, he will innately start trying to keep his hands between my fists and his head. But that doesn't make it kenpo. At some point, I have to stop whupping on him and say, "Here... when I do this to you, try this in response to protect yourself". That the Ideal... a discussion about "How to". During that same chat, I might introduce him to the idea of "angle of incidence", getting his blocks to stop my punches at perpendicular angles of contact; or I might introduce him to the differences between a parry and a block; or to counter-attacking me by throwing things at diffferent height zones, instead of always trying to punch down the pipe (all concepts and principles of motion). When I next resume throwing bombs at his head to make sure he uses the tools I just gave him, that's functional.
> 
> Sparring with a technique? Nah. Technique application is meant to be injurious. FMA has interweaving hand patterns that fit that rapid-fire repeated attack sequencing function just fine, without compromising the intensity of ownership and injury-reliance built into the Parker system. I would offer that, having watched your videos of applying SD techs to sparring, you have already sacrificed the learning field for C&P like "strike manipulation", "contact manipulation", and "control manipulation" that are core essential aspects to understanding the application of kenpo in personal combat. Yet, while sparring, you could ostensibly use them all. Conundrum, eh?
> 
> I don't mind redesigning self-defense techniques -- hell, that's what they are for. You are supposed to reach a point in your studies where you stop waiting for the answer to be handed to you, and set out to seek better quality answers on your own... both within the system, and without -- Mr. Parker was an avid student of the arts, always exploring and absorbing, right up to his last days. My objection is _modification before understanding_. My big chubby for self-defense techniques has always been Purpose -- what is the Purpose of this technique? Everytime I asked Mr. Parker to walk me through a technique, he opened the discussion with the phrase, "This technique is meant to teach you how to... [insert some specific skill about here]". The things were, "generate power from your legs, and transfer it to a whipping action with your arms", or, "start your attacker backpeddling, and not let the pressure up until you're ready to release him", or "introduce you to ways for getting past a guy who is trying to block you from getting through a doorway (the techniques from that conversation were Unfurling Crane and Flashing Wings, btw)". Not once... NOT ONE TIME!!! did he ever say or imply that the technique, as designed, was meant to be a self-contained self-defense scenario, as in "this is a defense against a choke". The purpose of Crashing Wings was to teach the student that it is easier to mess with a guys balance if you marry it to your own, first... NOT as a defense against a bearhug from behind. The Purpose of Lone Kimono was to teach the beginner "the lesson of Bridges -- anything extending between Point A and Point B is a bridge, and bridges are meant to be broken." Twin Kimono? To power figure-8 upper carriage momentum from action generated in the lower carriage. NOT a defense against a push or grab. The moves as reactions are finite. The concepts and principles, once internalized, are globally applicable, accross contexts. A Boxer with his back to the ropes can throw a flurry using Mr. Parkers "purpose" from Twin Kimono, and use the footwork to make his hooks land like thunder as he chisels his way out of the corner. A grappler can apply this to how he shrimps, creating momentum through his whole body, and not just wiggling one part. The techniques are limited -- the C&P are universally applicable, limited only by the understanding of the practitioner, first off, and their ingenuity, second.
> 
> Rather than being a solution that's ever supposed to be taken so seriously as an end-all, they a starting places for conversation about how to use your body, skillfully and intelligently, in a given context, in relationship to circumstances dictated either by the attacker, or by us from how we hit or moved the attacker... or ourselves, or a change in the environment.
> 
> I have been chuckling about all the discourse on Captured Twigs, recalling a time I asked him -- notebook in hand and ready to write -- what the purpose of the technique was. His response was, "to teach beginners to do SOMETHING, not just stand there and freeze like a deer in the headlights." Have heard that echoed since then by a couple of his seniors, who were all way closer to him than I ever was. Considering how expansive some of his answers could be, I haven't tried to be good at CT since. Just do SOMETHING.
> 
> I certainly don't see any point in turning my back on someone in sparring and trying to apply it there. I would rather spend the time drilling on turning to face my work, then getting really good at leaving my back to an attacker.
> 
> But hey... it's a starting point. Just like it was meant to be. A starting point in the Embryonic stage of learning. You know... embryo... not even a baby yet... the START of an organisms journey into a given field of experience.
> 
> Oh. One more thing. The Embryonic learning stage isn't a static stage; it changes with introduction to new material, and new applications of old material. You could take an expert-level practitioner -- say, a black belt -- and demonstrate a new manner of applying an old movement, that reflects a new way of doing it based on a principle or concept they may not have been exposed to before, and that expert-level practitioner could be said to be embryonic in their understanding and application of that new-to-them C&P.
> 
> In short, you're horribly incorrect in shooting down the "IP as a starting point" thing. It was Mr. Parkers contention that learning had to start somewhere, and the starting point function of the IP is internally consistent with Mr. Parkers descriptions of his own art. But it's your opinion, and you're entitled to it. In kenpo, we just call it "tailoring", and it often gets done early on by folks who never got the whole picture, and so have to tweak it to make it work or to be at peace with the material in their model of the world.
> 
> Cute story (for me)... most of the guys prolly already heard it on here. I have never liked the extensions for my own reasons, so made up my own.... take a dozen or so judo throws and train the hell out of them, take the best "mexican hat dances" that are in the extensions, a couple finishing holds, and some power-breaking blows, and re-write them: Base tech + throw+ tap-dance to finishing hold or "Hulk Smash" shot, then screw covering out... draw your sidearm, and use the unconscious or deceased body for cover as you scan the environment for the next target. Worked great for the contexts I was training in and for. Mr. Parker called me on it, and made me demo my take on his system. At the end, he complimented me on it. Also added a caveat, "Just don't call it Ed Parker's Kenpo... I got a lotta guys paying me a lot of money for that name".
> 
> Take home lesson? If you change it, it's yours. Some would say, if you HAVE TO change it, you probably never "got it" in the first place... that things not broken don't need fixing. Mr. Parker didn't say that, though he DID say, on multiple occasions, that everybody has different understandings, and everybody can only do the best they can, with what they have to work with. Some approaches fit different contexts better than others. But if you make such substantial modifications to a body of work, such that it no longer reflects the originators intent around his own creation, at least have the decency to drop his moniker from the end product.
> 
> "I can tell you what to think, or teach you HOW to think. I can teach you a move, or teach you HOW to move." -- SGM Ed Parker, Sr.
> 
> Kenpo is NOT the sequence of moves... never has been; the sequences were just there so we would have a common media of discussion within which to explore HOW one ought to move, in order to best utilize the bodys best potential. Kenpo is about HOW to move. I see people all the time doing the sequences, but failing at moving the way Mr. Parker tried ad nauseum to coach people to move.
> 
> I wonder how many swim *coaches* are banging their heads against the wall in frustration, because no matter how many times they tell the immensely talented mook in the pool how to twist his wrist while hiking his opposite hip to gain more skate across the surface in order to improve his time, the guy just doesn't get it. The *athlete* is still convinced the path to becoming a better *technician* is just a matter of ten more laps, with more intensity.


 

Ok sir, you don't talk enough at all!! I mean that with all sincerity. Your post does two key things for me. 1. It lets me know that though it has been not entirely clearly defined, my joourney is in the right direction.
2. You just helped me "up" my level of teaching and training. i have a clearer directional focus through which I may cull more out of my techniques and forms. Thank you!


I have to say that between you and Doc my initial thought to "not" change the default techniques before understanding them well enough and use the techniques to teach kempo and not teach kempo as the tecniques has been strongly re enforced.  I have not found a technique that has not taught me more and more.  I consider that after over 20 years of training and study, i am not qualified to change a technique.  I am learning from my kempo, everyday.  I am getting better at "how" through the techniques and forms.  

BTW what does "prolly" mean?

Much respect
Marlon


----------



## Doc

marlon said:


> Ok sir, you don't talk enough at all!! I mean that with all sincerity. Your post does two key things for me. 1. It lets me know that though it has been not entirely clearly defined, my joourney is in the right direction.
> 2. You just helped me "up" my level of teaching and training. i have a clearer directional focus through which I may cull more out of my techniques and forms. Thank you!
> 
> 
> I have to say that between you and Doc my initial thought to "not" change the default techniques before understanding them well enough and use the techniques to teach kempo and not teach kempo as the tecniques has been strongly re enforced.  I have not found a technique that has not taught me more and more.  I consider that after over 20 years of training and study, i am not qualified to change a technique.  I am learning from my kempo, everyday.  I am getting better at "how" through the techniques and forms.
> 
> BTW what does "prolly" mean?
> 
> Much respect
> Marlon



Crouch-speak for "probably."


----------



## ATACX GYM

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> Sorry, but you are clearly incorrect, and it's OK, as long as you can justify it in your own mind. The Ideal Phase serves a purpose within the system, as per Mr. Parker himself. It is to encapsulate the application of basics as expressions of the concepts and principles of motion. They are designed to be mini laboratories, in which discussions take place around how natural weapons are deployed for a specific efffect, within a given context. That is the FUNCTIONAL definition of the ideal phase of any self-defense technique within the Parker system. His words -- not mine -- are that, if you ever try to use 5 Swords against a punch, then you have missed the point of the system entirely. The techniques are not meant to teach this-for-that solutions to attacks, making the whole "applying the ideal, functionally" position a moot one. They are meant to teach you how to move. And, specifically, how to move in relationship to an ever-changing attackers actions and reactions to the flow of impact and energy in an altercation.
> 
> Ya know something marathon runners do? Study technique. The technique of breathing; technique of gait, and modifying gait to levels of fatigue. etc. They study how to best utilize arms during swing phases of running, how to best land their heel, how high to raise their feet for ground clearance before kicking it forward, all of it. In running, they do this in clinics, or seminars, or with lotsa reading and experimentation. In fact, if you ever get really bored and have too much time on your hands, apply for a years subscription to the NSCA's or ASCM's research publication journals... hours of boring reading about one manner of movement versus another. They (runners) are functional AFTER they address the technical details... otherwise, they hurt themselves. Foot slap versus heel-toe? Have to learn it some time before they start putting dozens of miles on their sneakers. Otherwise, they jack their bodies up, and never become runners worth a piss.
> 
> In kenpo, these "how to clinics" are the instructional sessions where the ideal is used to demonstrate a principle theme, then successive coursework looks at either adapting the Ideal to a number of contingencies (what ifs), or at adjusting operational biomechanics to move the application of the basics within the technique to "even if" levels of performance.
> 
> The piece I think you're missing is the in-between. Yes, you can teach kenpo basics to someone, and start them off immediately in fighting to apply them... best way to teach someone to learn how to swim is to throw them in the water. BUT!!! that will NOT develop an Olympic-level expertise. Breaking it down to having them work on kicking in the pool, stroke past their body, lifting their arm out of the water just so, placing it back in the water just so, how the hand MUST be formed to move the body optimally accross the surface of the water while minimizing drag by swimming too deeply under the surface... these are all technical aspects that are addressed in training, that must be attended to slowly, and engrained properly, in order for a swimmer to go from a weekend water-hole puddle-jumper, to a high school competitor, to a competitive level college swimmer, to an Olympic hopeful. Coaches break down the minutae, because both God and the Devil are in the details. That breakdown takes place, in kenpo, in the Ideal Phase discussions.
> 
> You are only half right. If I just want to develop a guy who can defend himself against a broad range of attacks, I'm not even going to teach him kenpo. I'm going to show him some kickboxing, a couple wrestling maneuvers and finishing holds, then put gloves on him and start kicking his ***! Then for the next level of training, I'm going to bring in a couple buddies, and we're just gonna jump him a couple times a week, with a little time between beatings to heal. When all is said and done, he will be able to apply a small range of options against a lot of different possibilities. But he still won't be a *kenpoist*.
> 
> Mr. Parker called kenpo, "The thinking mans martial art". And the lessons contained in the starting point of the IP, then later in the extrapolations that explore application of the core concepts and principles accross contexts and scenarios, is where the thinking takes place. Think back to the stages of learning... the first being "Embryonic." Adult learning theory applied to complex coordinative maneuvers with a multiplicity of variations possible from any starting point requires a... ummm... what's the things I'm looking for... oh yeah STARTING POINT!!!
> 
> If I put gloves, a mouthpiece and cup on a guy, and start knocking the bejeezus out of him, he will innately start trying to keep his hands between my fists and his head. But that doesn't make it kenpo. At some point, I have to stop whupping on him and say, "Here... when I do this to you, try this in response to protect yourself". That the Ideal... a discussion about "How to". During that same chat, I might introduce him to the idea of "angle of incidence", getting his blocks to stop my punches at perpendicular angles of contact; or I might introduce him to the differences between a parry and a block; or to counter-attacking me by throwing things at diffferent height zones, instead of always trying to punch down the pipe (all concepts and principles of motion). When I next resume throwing bombs at his head to make sure he uses the tools I just gave him, that's functional.
> 
> Sparring with a technique? Nah. Technique application is meant to be injurious. FMA has interweaving hand patterns that fit that rapid-fire repeated attack sequencing function just fine, without compromising the intensity of ownership and injury-reliance built into the Parker system. I would offer that, having watched your videos of applying SD techs to sparring, you have already sacrificed the learning field for C&P like "strike manipulation", "contact manipulation", and "control manipulation" that are core essential aspects to understanding the application of kenpo in personal combat. Yet, while sparring, you could ostensibly use them all. Conundrum, eh?
> 
> I don't mind redesigning self-defense techniques -- hell, that's what they are for. You are supposed to reach a point in your studies where you stop waiting for the answer to be handed to you, and set out to seek better quality answers on your own... both within the system, and without -- Mr. Parker was an avid student of the arts, always exploring and absorbing, right up to his last days. My objection is _modification before understanding_. My big chubby for self-defense techniques has always been Purpose -- what is the Purpose of this technique? Everytime I asked Mr. Parker to walk me through a technique, he opened the discussion with the phrase, "This technique is meant to teach you how to... [insert some specific skill about here]". The things were, "generate power from your legs, and transfer it to a whipping action with your arms", or, "start your attacker backpeddling, and not let the pressure up until you're ready to release him", or "introduce you to ways for getting past a guy who is trying to block you from getting through a doorway (the techniques from that conversation were Unfurling Crane and Flashing Wings, btw)". Not once... NOT ONE TIME!!! did he ever say or imply that the technique, as designed, was meant to be a self-contained self-defense scenario, as in "this is a defense against a choke". The purpose of Crashing Wings was to teach the student that it is easier to mess with a guys balance if you marry it to your own, first... NOT as a defense against a bearhug from behind. The Purpose of Lone Kimono was to teach the beginner "the lesson of Bridges -- anything extending between Point A and Point B is a bridge, and bridges are meant to be broken." Twin Kimono? To power figure-8 upper carriage momentum from action generated in the lower carriage. NOT a defense against a push or grab. The moves as reactions are finite. The concepts and principles, once internalized, are globally applicable, accross contexts. A Boxer with his back to the ropes can throw a flurry using Mr. Parkers "purpose" from Twin Kimono, and use the footwork to make his hooks land like thunder as he chisels his way out of the corner. A grappler can apply this to how he shrimps, creating momentum through his whole body, and not just wiggling one part. The techniques are limited -- the C&P are universally applicable, limited only by the understanding of the practitioner, first off, and their ingenuity, second.
> 
> Rather than being a solution that's ever supposed to be taken so seriously as an end-all, they a starting places for conversation about how to use your body, skillfully and intelligently, in a given context, in relationship to circumstances dictated either by the attacker, or by us from how we hit or moved the attacker... or ourselves, or a change in the environment.
> 
> I have been chuckling about all the discourse on Captured Twigs, recalling a time I asked him -- notebook in hand and ready to write -- what the purpose of the technique was. His response was, "to teach beginners to do SOMETHING, not just stand there and freeze like a deer in the headlights." Have heard that echoed since then by a couple of his seniors, who were all way closer to him than I ever was. Considering how expansive some of his answers could be, I haven't tried to be good at CT since. Just do SOMETHING.
> 
> I certainly don't see any point in turning my back on someone in sparring and trying to apply it there. I would rather spend the time drilling on turning to face my work, then getting really good at leaving my back to an attacker.
> 
> But hey... it's a starting point. Just like it was meant to be. A starting point in the Embryonic stage of learning. You know... embryo... not even a baby yet... the START of an organisms journey into a given field of experience.
> 
> Oh. One more thing. The Embryonic learning stage isn't a static stage; it changes with introduction to new material, and new applications of old material. You could take an expert-level practitioner -- say, a black belt -- and demonstrate a new manner of applying an old movement, that reflects a new way of doing it based on a principle or concept they may not have been exposed to before, and that expert-level practitioner could be said to be embryonic in their understanding and application of that new-to-them C&P.
> 
> In short, you're horribly incorrect in shooting down the "IP as a starting point" thing. It was Mr. Parkers contention that learning had to start somewhere, and the starting point function of the IP is internally consistent with Mr. Parkers descriptions of his own art. But it's your opinion, and you're entitled to it. In kenpo, we just call it "tailoring", and it often gets done early on by folks who never got the whole picture, and so have to tweak it to make it work or to be at peace with the material in their model of the world.
> 
> Cute story (for me)... most of the guys prolly already heard it on here. I have never liked the extensions for my own reasons, so made up my own.... take a dozen or so judo throws and train the hell out of them, take the best "mexican hat dances" that are in the extensions, a couple finishing holds, and some power-breaking blows, and re-write them: Base tech + throw+ tap-dance to finishing hold or "Hulk Smash" shot, then screw covering out... draw your sidearm, and use the unconscious or deceased body for cover as you scan the environment for the next target. Worked great for the contexts I was training in and for. Mr. Parker called me on it, and made me demo my take on his system. At the end, he complimented me on it. Also added a caveat, "Just don't call it Ed Parker's Kenpo... I got a lotta guys paying me a lot of money for that name".
> 
> Take home lesson? If you change it, it's yours. Some would say, if you HAVE TO change it, you probably never "got it" in the first place... that things not broken don't need fixing. Mr. Parker didn't say that, though he DID say, on multiple occasions, that everybody has different understandings, and everybody can only do the best they can, with what they have to work with. Some approaches fit different contexts better than others. But if you make such substantial modifications to a body of work, such that it no longer reflects the originators intent around his own creation, at least have the decency to drop his moniker from the end product.
> 
> "I can tell you what to think, or teach you HOW to think. I can teach you a move, or teach you HOW to move." -- SGM Ed Parker, Sr.
> 
> Kenpo is NOT the sequence of moves... never has been; the sequences were just there so we would have a common media of discussion within which to explore HOW one ought to move, in order to best utilize the bodys best potential. Kenpo is about HOW to move. I see people all the time doing the sequences, but failing at moving the way Mr. Parker tried ad nauseum to coach people to move.
> 
> I wonder how many swim *coaches* are banging their heads against the wall in frustration, because no matter how many times they tell the immensely talented mook in the pool how to twist his wrist while hiking his opposite hip to gain more skate across the surface in order to improve his time, the guy just doesn't get it. The *athlete* is still convinced the path to becoming a better *technician* is just a matter of ten more laps, with more intensity.


 


^^^^^SEE!! I TOLDJA I LIKE THIS GUY! THIS RIGHT HERE IS ANOTHER GOOD REASON WHY!!!


Having been an amatuer enthusiast of kinesiology,exercise physiology,biomechanics,physical therapy,sports psychology,nutrition,Oriental Medicine,and the like for going on 2 decades now and almost majored in kinesiology in school,I feel pretty comfy in that area.I'm a geek and cool with that.Love it.I had a subscription to TRIATHLON magazine and all the hardcore magazines before they went commercial...like not too many people know that MUSCULAR DEVELOPMENT used to be a doooope magazine centered around athletic performance.Now it's firmly on the bodybuilder only thing and that's cool too,but...not of much help to us athletes.I've been down with guys like Tim Hallmark back when he was bringing Evander up from cruiserweight.I read the works of Bompa and maaaany others.I'm pretty well versed for an amatuer.

There is also the common but erroneous perception of athletes that we don't know what we're doing or can't be taught technique.Wrong.There's a common perception that we coaches are pure technicians with limited or no athletic ability on a high performance wavelength.Wrong some more.I'm both,and I'm not alone.And I'm not a kid,either.I looong ago reached the conclusion that each movement is essential and has multiple applications,with concepts translated into mechanics being of the most primary importance.I'm fully aware that each movement is a mini-lab;if you recall,I actually made that comment months ago on KT and frequently referred to collabing with other kenpoists as a "Kenpo Lab"...which again formulated a major part of the reason why I put such importance on technique done on video to show exactly and specifically what each of us meant by such and such.In essence,the supremacy of movement is the crucial lesson in martial arts and even on a quantum level one can argue that the supremacy of movement may be the ultimate lesson of life itself.And again and again and again,the FM is vastly superior in this area too.In science? The FM forms the very spine foundation and cornerstone of ALL hard sciences...it's called THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD.So when we study technique? We study the hell out of technique.When we study concepts? Nobody does it as well or better.When we muse about things great and small even without the hard data that one can frequently acquire about various subjects due to the SCIENTIFIC METHOD? We're philosophizing...in fact,philosophy and philosophers are closely linked to the SCIENTIFIC METHOD...roughly equivalent to the Observation and Hypothesis phase in SCIENTIFIC METHOD.

It's this perspective that helps to inform my admiration for and championing of the Functional Method.There is a truly asinine perception that the FM means go in the ring and get punched or something else brainless,because that is a way to learn how to fight.Over and over again I keep pointing out that the FM is superior in EVERY way.For instance:

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka brought us TERRIFIC knowledge and info regarding his time with GGMEP.Especially when he brought us info regarding his talks with GGMEP regarding Captured Twigs.He stated that in essence GGMEP said that Captured Twigs' main point was to teach the student to DO SOMETHING and not spazz like a freakin moron.Well cleary that "DO SOMETHING" took on a concrete form...and here is where the disconnects are.The FM has zero problems with the goal..."DO SOMETHING AND IN THE DOING OF IT? MOVE AND BE KENPO ABOUT IT."

1): What are the unfailing hallmarks of Kenpo movement,even though each movement has to be translated through the gajillion movement options of each person as they grow and age? I have INFINITE INSIGHTS INTO KENPO.Seems to me that this book combined with the anecdotes of some of our Kenpo Seniors very much makes me think that GGMEP was himself still working that out...which gives us the freedom to do the same.On top of that,I very much get the feeling from specific writings and anecdotes that GGMEP wanted us to work out our own path too,so...that takes us to the second observation which is crucial here:

2) If the goal is to DO SOMETHING THAT'S EFFECTIVE AND KENPO? After we come to our own conclusion of how we articulate the concepts of Kenpo,we speediy realize that there's always a BETTER WAY to do various movements.It's within our grasp to continually innovate better ways using the sciences of movement and leverage,etc.This is where the IP movements fall directly on their faces and demolish the elevated absract structure that's supposed to spawn it.Cuz they have no energy timing and motion,they're forever locked in their Ivory Tower with their freeze frame actions akin to mannequins which are sure to fossilize movement and make it utterly nonpractical. You know how you fix that? You say:

"Okay! We're going to learn concepts of funtional,practical movement and study how we can translate these concepts by using specific methods not only as a means of unique self defense and fitness but also as a perpetual source of mental and spiritual refinement and elevation.We'll call these specific yet infinitely variant movements bound by this concept KENPO. Okay,let's say this here bad guy grabs you from behind in the bear hug.Let's try to find THE MOST EFFICIENT WAYS to escape this here bear hug without allowing the bad guy the opportunity to do us severe damage and stuff.We'll take THE BEST OPTION AGAINST THE MOST REALISTIC BEAR HUGS AND USE THIS AS OUR TECHNICAL BASE.WE WILL DO THIS WITH EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THE 72 SD TECHNIQUES WHICH FORM THE SPINE OF KENPO.As time passes and we train and study and improve in every way,it will be all of our mandate to improve this technical base; make it more applicable,make it more realistic,and in the process make it healthier...a more combative form of something akin to a blend of yoga and hard science.The method of improvement will of course mandate using these techniques against escalating levels of realistic resistance,so that we can have the most accurate data with which to inform our concepts,observations,hypothesis and conclusions.Sparring is a vital part of the "Experimentation" phase soooo...lotsa sparring and sparring drills and stuff along with our less combative studies.Throughout this entire time we're still applying our unique Kenpo movements and concepts and refining both...then sharing our results.Okay? One two three...go!"

That right there^^^^ is the Functional Phase.IT WILL RELIABLY ACHIEVE THE GOALS THAT GGMEP APPARENTLY WANTED FOR US IN AT LEAST SEVERAL MAJOR PHASES.You know why Kenpo has been so fractured and the IP sucks anus and does anything BUT teach realistic real world technique and concepts and stuff? Because there hasn't been sufficient dessimination of GGMEP's specific words regarding movement along with specific ACCURATE Kenpo physical articulative models thereof.That is exactly what we DIDN'T get from the IP.See the PHYSICAL ARTICULATION of the terrific concepts behind the IP movements suck anus.Lots of it.Lots and lots of it.There is nothing sublime about the crapganimousness that we see in the physical articulation of the IP.There is no secret Holy Grail behind this:





 
That's just crap.Period.There's no impetus or inclination to study anything about that beyond:"THAT ISH SUCKS."

Now check this out:

ATACX GYM ALTERNATING MACES I





 
^^^That's ya boi Coach Ras puttin it down.Recall especially the sequence from 1:41-2:00.I specifically show the importance of not only striking with bth sides but fusing the hammerfist block into a punch and block.Watch the clip of GGMEP I have and the sections I highlight.He DOES THE SAME THING...and I never ever saw that video clip before AND I've never seen GGMEP demo his sequences before either.I only found that clip today as it was sent into my inbox on Youtube by Jim Miller and his KenpoKarate365 Youtube Channel peeps.

 I'm merely a 5th dan.That other guy Joe in the other clip is a GM.I've never met GGMEP in life although I did see him a few times at the IKC.See,people locked into the phsyical movements of the IP without any FM concepts behind it will say stuff like:"you do technique x from this position and technique y from this position" like Clint the Tatumite and too many others said regarding Attacking Mace.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNeEYgqQb6M&feature=watch_response

These guys and gals never spar or test these sequences at all and in so doing GUARANTEE that they'll miss the intricacies behind the movements.No need for any form of discussion or minilab or anything.The FM adherents and exponents however,MANDATE such a need.We wanna apply technique "x" FROM EVERYWHERE and in the process we HAVE TO break the movement down and intimately,microscopically examine it.We HAVE TO try to figure out the conceptual model behind the movement.We HAVE TO find the universality of movements and that knowledge HAS TO impact EVERYTHING that we do.So we're very intelligent,very well informed,very much in sync with the underlying concepts...especially when we reach instructor level and beyond.

That's why my Attacking Mace looks like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDxHsdUDLDU&feature=watch_response





 
See how all that highfalutin nonapplicable anus VANISHES when you have to spar and "the Truth will out"? And the truth is even MORE intricate applicable graspable (in its prmary elementary phases) and faaaar more educationally motivational than the flowery fake stuff that comprise 100% of the physical articulation of the IP?


See,the process of CORRECTING this crap takes progressive thought,analysis,experimentation,elevated reflection...in short? All the actual benefits that champions of the phsycial articulation of the IP ascribe to said wakk IP physical articulation but which not only is NOT there and NEVER WILL be;it's the SOLE PROVINCE OF THE FM.It takes conceptualizing,observation,hypothesis,experimentation,acquisition of a complete and well tested theoretical model,sharing this tested theoretical model with a wealth of like minded peers for testing,for review,dissection and approbation,seeking to impove upon this theoretical model once it's been subjected to exhaustive and thoroughgoing testing by your collective peers and yourself,and repeating this process ad infinitum that actually achieves the goal you speak of.This is literally the definition of THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD.The SCIENTIFIC METHOD is a major articulation of the FM.That's how we went from horses to the Model T to the airplane to space shuttles and eventually The Enterprise and beyond.You know what the physical articulation of the IP does? It progressively disintegrates all of the good that you champion.The first thing we learn from the physical IP is that it doesn't work.The general reaction to such a presentation of craptimonious physical movements is a generally negative perception of the art that champions it.The negative perception of the ART is misplaced,but it's our fault for putting such crap out there in the first place.Fix it.By using the FM.There ya go.

GGM ED PARKER:





 
^^This is GGMEP.Look at what he does and says.He is actively applying movements to various scenarios,stepping in precisely the opposite direction and doing exactly the opposite of what the IP shows.IN OTHER WORDS I'M DOING EXACTLY WHAT HE SAID.Guess what else? MY MOVEMENTS ARE CLOSER TO HIS THAN THAT OTHER GUY'S ARE.(btw I know the curvilinear bodywhip movements that GGMEP dos--often called "power amplification"--but I pick and choose when I use them.However,my body movements scrupulously follow scientific models espoused in disciplines like kinesiology and my own common sense).

Now look at this video of GGMEP and Jeff Speakman.Listent to how Jeff Speakman points out that Kenpo isn't tied to a specific historical Master (which includes GGMEP) but is instead the "science of street fighting." Listen to GGMEP,especially from 1:30-2:08. Not only marvel at how he moves but more importantly LISTEN TO WHAT HE SAYS. Then take look again AT WHAT THE IP EXPONENTS DO AND SAY and COMPARE AND CONTRAST with WHAT I DO AND SAY.I'm faaar closer to GGMEP without ever having spoken to him or having seen him perform a SINGLE technique.





 

The proof is in the pudding.The FM IS PUDDING.The physical articulations of the IP is closer to a badly made bowl of chitlins.


What's MOST IRONIC of this WHOLE CONVO is that your anecdotal story simply reaffirmed that GGMEP WAS FUNCTIONAL.That's the most glaring thing.It's clear to me even more than it ever was that GGMEP was closer than I ever knew to Bruce Lee philosophically and vice versa (I believe Doc and then you mentioned something like this to me first,but I'd organically reached this conclusion and applied it for decades now); essentially these guys took opposite paths to engage similar highly sophisticated philosopical models...like I said,a combination of science and yoga.BUT SCIENCE AND YOGA ARE BOTH FUNCTIONAL.The physical articulation of the IP is NOT functional and thus it AUTOMATICALLY FAILS to convey the intricate conceptual model behind it.No amount of championing it or flowery words will get beyond this impenetrable wall of reality.

But I'm learning alot and enjoying this conversation.I see man that you're able to find functionality in the IP because you have a functional base.GGMEP and the Gracies and other primary instructors.The real trick is twofold here:

1) How can someone who's in a commercial studio for instance learn the applicability of Kenpo and the SD in the IP san sparring,sans the mandate to delve deeper,sans functonality? The answer: not happening.

2)Can you and anyone else who conflates the IP CONCEPT with the IP PHYSICAL ARTICULATIVE REALITY look straight at the IP's physical movements and see the glaring obviousness of its suckitude?  Be straight up by calling a spade a spade: the movements of the IP are NOT functional.Even in your discussions and posts defending the IP,you'd say:"Yeah the IP is essential to Kenpo and teaches us technique." And then show zero follow up to that assertion.Know why? There IS no concrete follow up.Yu then would say stufflike:"It's desiged to stimulate discussion..." the only discussion that ensues would be:"This ish sucks! Throw it away!" and the followup would be:"F#ck karate!" or "Gotta make something that works from this crap."

The primary mandate of any MARTIAL art is TO WORK IN FIGHTS FIRST.The IP does NOT work.Neither will anything else that springs from its nonfunctional wakkness.You wanna stimulate discussion? HAVE THE TECHNIQUES WORK FIRST AND THEN INTRODUCE DISCUSSION ON THE TECHNIQUE.I do it all the time in almost every class I teach.Extra simple,extra FUNCTIONAL.Nothing Ideal about it.

Look at the ALTERNATING MACES as shown by numerous other Professors and GM:





 




 




 




 
^^^I bet each one of these guys can fight in real life because they don't do that in real life.Their biggest and most fatal flaw is a completely unrealistic assesment of the attack coming at them.Look at the world of difference that I display and they're of way higher rank and seniority than me:





 

It's over.It's a wrap.The real world gives us the real answers and flatly the evidence of m simplest Alternating Maces video brings the real world from jump.The follow up where I block a variety of pushes and punches WITH THE EXACT SAME TECHNIQUE--that video hasn't been put up due to my brother being a lazy ***.Lol.I'll put it back up again to make my point clear.

Take Joe's Alternating Maces and try it exactly or very close to how he shoes it vs a genuine attacker who's genuinely pushing the crap out of you.First thing you learn? IT DON'T WORK.They're NOT indicative of a keen mind behind the movements,therefore theree wil beNO INCENTIVE TO DISCUSS A THING.Boxing,for example,is the Sweet Science.We see over and over again the acumen of boxing trainers and the importance of nutrition,of well run goal oriented training camps,etc. etc.First and foremost...boxing is FUNCTIONAL.If Kenpo were to take the FM to the IP? Pow.Problem solved.The FM is indeed the Functional Ideal cuz the Idea is to be Functional.Lol.


----------



## ATACX GYM

MJS said:


> Hey Ras,
> 
> Just watched that first clip. Yes, thats Clyde. He, and a few other Tatumites, used to be members here. Perhaps this is best saved for the IP technique thread, but anyways...I'll say it here. He commented to you in one of those quotes, that there is always another IP tech to fall back on, in the event something goes wrong with the first IP tech. For myself, I teach the IP. But, I dont harp on it for 50yrs like some people. And thats their choice. I teach the IP, and then *I* like to move on so as to get people to thinking outside the box. Using the basics, I'll cover other options, possible attacks, etc. I'm not looking for another IP, and frankly, I dont understand why people get so bound by the IPs. Some people talk about internalizing the techs. How long does that take, given the fact that we have hundreds of them? A few months? A year? 30yrs? IMO, whats more important to internalize, is the basics, so when the poop hits the fan, you will fall back on instinct, rather than have to sort thru a list of techs.
> 
> I think you and I are both getting people to the FM, you're just going on a quicker route, which is fine.


 

The first thing you gotta do with the physical articulation of the IP is FIX IT SO IT WILL WORK.And man? That SHOULD NEVER HAVE TO HAPPEN cuz THE TECHNIQUE SHOULD ALREADY WORK PERIOD.Fixing or having to fix a nonfunctional technique is the proof that the teacher isn't presenting the material well or sucks.Period.How much would we be talking about the Gracies and the UFC if their grappling only "ideally" worked? It works.How many times did you hear Roger Mayweather tell Floyd to "ideally" jab Shane? PBF jabbed the crap outta my boi Sugar Shane. How often would a Navy SEAL "ideally" shoot a bad guy? Exactly how does that 115 pound woman over there "ideally" stop that 230 pound mugger rapist? This abysmal failure is NOT a launch pad for discussion.It doesn't encourage you to analyze each movement like it's a mini-lab.What happens is: Kid goes to kenpo school wth nonscraptastic nonfunctional IP teacher.Teacher bedazzles kid and parents with sweet words and marketing yammer.Kid signs up for exorbitant price.Kid is excited.Kid energetically practices anus IP techniques.Kid might have encounter with other sucktastic kid who was bothering him.Karate kid gets his butt kicked.Karate kid is devastated,leaves Karate and martial arts altogether or joins MMA.He loves the functionality of MMA and in short order comes back and STOMPS those kids who bugged him.Orrrr...the karate kid doesn't lose he wins or he holds his own.YAY.More energetic sucktastic training and overconfidence that comes from it.Kid is called upon--now in high school--to scrap with another kid.Maybe it's a bullying football player.Maybe it's the aggressive razzing of a HS wrestler.Whoever this is? This kid isn't a chump and our IP karate kid gets ANNIHILATED.Karate kid is mentally and emotionally devastated.Social calamity ensues.The kid remembers that movie NEVER BACK DOWN.Off he goes to MMA gym. 2 months later? HE ANNIHILATES those kids who stomped him.We now have another MMA die hard fan who is equally die hard about his opinion that karate sucks.And he's not shy about spreading the news.The kids who're the former Karate Kid's friends and the kids who watched the Karate Kid get stomped all learn: karae sucks.Kenpoloses dozens of potential students.

All this because the karate sensei isn't functional.In direct contradiction to common sense.In direct contradiction to GGMEP.There simply is no justifying any aspect of the physical articulation of the IP,or withholding the knowledge that you're supposed to use your brain and analyze a technique's approach and application so you can grasp the principle behind it.Duh.Howzabout you teach some stuff that works,show why it works,and talk about why it works and then have the students work off of that principle so they not only have a technique that works? They delve into the principles of thought that spawned the principle and the philosophy behind it.Whoa.Hard work.Takes like 5 minutes.I do it 95% of the time in my classes and that's how I got the techniques I have.Like I said,my variant of the Kenpo's SD techniques came from this collaborative process.I know exactly whereof I speak.


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## marlon

Hi Ras,
I am still going through your post to get as much out of it as possible.  I note that in kenpoprossessor's rebuttle to your attacking mace he does something different than you on the initial entry. His check at the shoulder immediately changes his attackers posture.  On contact he begins a manipulation control that I have missed seeing on your rendition of the technique.  Is that an alteration that you made or is his a variation?  Sorry, I did not want to forget the question...back to reading


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## MJS

ATACX GYM said:


> The first thing you gotta do with the physical articulation of the IP is FIX IT SO IT WILL WORK.And man? That SHOULD NEVER HAVE TO HAPPEN cuz THE TECHNIQUE SHOULD ALREADY WORK PERIOD.Fixing or having to fix a nonfunctional technique is the proof that the teacher isn't presenting the material well or sucks.Period.How much would we be talking about the Gracies and the UFC if their grappling only "ideally" worked? It works.How many times did you hear Roger Mayweather tell Floyd to "ideally" jab Shane? PBF jabbed the crap outta my boi Sugar Shane. How often would a Navy SEAL "ideally" shoot a bad guy? Exactly how does that 115 pound woman over there "ideally" stop that 230 pound mugger rapist? This abysmal failure is NOT a launch pad for discussion.It doesn't encourage you to analyze each movement like it's a mini-lab.What happens is: Kid goes to kenpo school wth nonscraptastic nonfunctional IP teacher.Teacher bedazzles kid and parents with sweet words and marketing yammer.Kid signs up for exorbitant price.Kid is excited.Kid energetically practices anus IP techniques.Kid might have encounter with other sucktastic kid who was bothering him.Karate kid gets his butt kicked.Karate kid is devastated,leaves Karate and martial arts altogether or joins MMA.He loves the functionality of MMA and in short order comes back and STOMPS those kids who bugged him.Orrrr...the karate kid doesn't lose he wins or he holds his own.YAY.More energetic sucktastic training and overconfidence that comes from it.Kid is called upon--now in high school--to scrap with another kid.Maybe it's a bullying football player.Maybe it's the aggressive razzing of a HS wrestler.Whoever this is? This kid isn't a chump and our IP karate kid gets ANNIHILATED.Karate kid is mentally and emotionally devastated.Social calamity ensues.The kid remembers that movie NEVER BACK DOWN.Off he goes to MMA gym. 2 months later? HE ANNIHILATES those kids who stomped him.We now have another MMA die hard fan who is equally die hard about his opinion that karate sucks.And he's not shy about spreading the news.The kids who're the former Karate Kid's friends and the kids who watched the Karate Kid get stomped all learn: karae sucks.Kenpoloses dozens of potential students.
> 
> All this because the karate sensei isn't functional.In direct contradiction to common sense.In direct contradiction to GGMEP.There simply is no justifying any aspect of the physical articulation of the IP,or withholding the knowledge that you're supposed to use your brain and analyze a technique's approach and application so you can grasp the principle behind it.Duh.Howzabout you teach some stuff that works,show why it works,and talk about why it works and then have the students work off of that principle so they not only have a technique that works? They delve into the principles of thought that spawned the principle and the philosophy behind it.Whoa.Hard work.Takes like 5 minutes.I do it 95% of the time in my classes and that's how I got the techniques I have.Like I said,my variant of the Kenpo's SD techniques came from this collaborative process.I know exactly whereof I speak.


 
Brutha Ras,

Good points as always.   Lemme clarify a few things.  The #1 reason why I teach the IP techs. is because I have to.  Its not my school, so I gotta do what I gotta do.   However....(insert the evil grin here) after I do that, and again, I'm constantly stressing to them, to not harp on the techs.  When that punch is racing to their head, I dont wanna see them do Attacking Mace, Thundering Hammers, etc, I want to see them defend themselves.  If one of those techs comes out, great, but dont go thru a huge list of umpteen techs.

Anyways...after I do the IP, I move on to making it a FM tech.  Furthermore, I also show them some possible options that I may do.  Am I doing a 'Kenpo tech' per se?  Probably not, but I'm using my Kenpo basics, and I'm defending myself.  Punch coming in...I may opt for a parry, palm to the face, and takedown.  I may fall back on something from the FMAs.  

For *me* my goal isn't to make it look fancy, flashy, or even look like a Kenpo tech.  My goal is to successfully defend myself.  Dont mistake this for me tossing out the concepts that principles...I'm keeping those.  I'm just not tying myself to the "IP"


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## ATACX GYM

marlon said:


> Hi Ras,
> I am still going through your post to get as much out of it as possible. I note that in kenpoprossessor's rebuttle to your attacking mace he does something different than you on the initial entry. His check at the shoulder immediately changes his attackers posture. On contact he begins a manipulation control that I have missed seeing on your rendition of the technique. Is that an alteration that you made or is his a variation? Sorry, I did not want to forget the question...back to reading


 

Hey Marlon!

Clint aka kenpoprofessor's rebuttle and shoulter check comes after he resets.He wasn't initially at that range at first.His first check was around the elbow and tricep area.Watch the video again and you'll see it.Secondly,I actually show the step by step process that he uses first as the first video in my introduction to Attacking Mace and what I deem to be nonfunctional about the base model.I also specifically state that I generally knee the thigh,and I also bang the groin ribs gut or anything else I can quickly get to that hurts.Check it out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22aA5I3Llh0&NR=1


Hope that helps.The sequence where I didn't manipulate his shoulder is a later video,designed to show how I teach nonstop attacks on both sides.I see that my friend didn't put up the version wherein I run the techniques from both sides with the Crane and Talon and then run through the basic subs step by step and then do it while sparring.I'll have to put it up and break that one into 2 videos because it's longer than the 10 minute Youtube limit.I used the Crane to manipulate his height width and depth zones--HWDZ-- after/simultaneous with the landed knee strike.I do indeed employ the kick but I do so with the acknowledgement of the reality that sometimes you're too close to kick,so I knee too.Usually I throw that knee or kick to the thigh groin or stomach,but I also bang HARD to the body as that alone can end the whole conflict.I show variants where I throw two kicks--one of which is a high kick--while running the techniques on both sides nonstop and flowing seamlessly into clinch work strikes and subs while striking and using my stances,pressure,and HWDZ checks to keep him off balance strip him of his offense and submit him.It's purrty easy to do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1kWv5GK8Fs&feature=related


----------



## MJS

ATACX GYM said:


> Hey Marlon!
> 
> *Clyde* aka kenpoprofessor's rebuttle and shoulter check comes after he resets.He wasn't initially at that range at first.His first check was around the elbow and tricep area.Watch the video again and you'll see it.Secondly,I actually show the step by step process that he uses first as the first video in my introduction to Attacking Mace and what I deem to be nonfunctional about the base model.I also specifically state that I generally knee the thigh,and I also bang the groin ribs gut or anything else I can quickly get to that hurts.Check it out:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22aA5I3Llh0&NR=1
> 
> 
> Hope that helps.The sequence where I didn't manipulate his shoulder is a later video,designed to show how I teach nonstop attacks on both sides.I see that my friend didn't put up the version wherein I run the techniques from both sides with the Crane and Talon and then run through the basic subs step by step and then do it while sparring.I'll have to put it up and break that one into 2 videos because it's longer than the 10 minute Youtube limit.I used the Crane to manipulate his height width and depth zones--HWDZ-- after/simultaneous with the landed knee strike.I do indeed employ the kick but I do so with the acknowledgement of the reality that sometimes you're too close to kick,so I knee too.Usually I throw that knee or kick to the thigh groin or stomach,but I also bang HARD to the body as that alone can end the whole conflict.I show variants where I throw two kicks--one of which is a high kick--while running the techniques on both sides nonstop and flowing seamlessly into clinch work strikes and subs while striking and using my stances,pressure,and HWDZ checks to keep him off balance strip him of his offense and submit him.It's purrty easy to do.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1kWv5GK8Fs&feature=related


 
Fixed that for ya.


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## marlon

Thanks Ras, but is the shoulder check a part of the base technique? Do you find it an effective functional means of contact manipulation?  what does this mean for the rest of the technique, base vs. your version?

Marlon


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## ATACX GYM

marlon said:


> Thanks Ras, but is the shoulder check a part of the base technique? Do you find it an effective functional means of contact manipulation? what does this mean for the rest of the technique, base vs. your version?
> 
> Marlon


 

Quoting Doc here..."It depends." 

Lol.

The "base technique" was constanty evolving,as I understand it,so there are slight modifications here and there from practitioner to practitioner as well as those incurred by the passage of time.The main thing for the Attacking Mace (regarding the arm) as I learnd it is to first NOT get hit and second REDIRECT the attacking arm via block and manipulation or grip control most preferably,but the real world mandate is to get close enough to counter with a kick and marriage of gravity punch,a punch-kick-punch along the lines opened by the attacker by the nature ofhis attack,or block-knee-punch,etc.This includes takedowns (you can drop a dude just b hitting him and bow stancing through him or and manipulating him via any direction you want with your bow stance and in the process of transition from one bow stance to another you drop him) lcks and holds and stuff as a finisher if the strikes don't take him out.The targets that we strike are the nearest most vulnerable targets that we can use our longest-midrange and shortest (usually in that order as we close on him) most damaging weapons against.That's generally the thigh,groin,and body...and then we can wreck the head.Unless he just leaves himself wide open and we have that golden shot at the noggin we just can't pass up.Lolol.The arm comes into play as a means of control by evasion,manipulation,redirection,etc.

In the real world? Shorter guys like me often times block the limb between the wrist and elbow,because usually my attackers are taller and larger than I am.This is usually the case for women too,who compound their problems by generally inferior upper body strength.So I focus on real world effectiveness after explaining what it is we're trying to do and the reasons for these tactics...and devise ways to execute this technique from farther out.This is why we shorter folks oftentimes lead with a leg technique (our opponent's arm is usually longer than ours so we're out of range of the opponent,it's oftentimes a real surprise to be caught with a kick on the street,the leg is more powerful than the arm,it allows us to enter with pain and minimize retaliation by our opponent) when our opponent uses his arms.I'm also a great believer in body blows.Most people--even people 50 pounds heavier than you--can't take or are severely compromised by gettin clocked by 4 full powered clean shots to the body in a row;so we train to do exactly that.

I also have my students purposely targer thighs groins head ribs liver,kidneys,back of the neck temple eyes etc. with Attacking Mace hand and leg blows.It's a beautiful sight to see them pull it off,but it's not so rewarding to read posts where Captain Kenpo says "that's not Attacking Mace because you hit him in the head,not the body." Lolol.


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## marlon

Technical point for me.  i am on the shorter side myself however, I maintain and train to block inside wrist outside elbow.  Inside the strike I block closer to the wrist and outside I block closer to the elbow because of the possibility of counter strikes. We work on how to get there...can include entry kicks


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## MJS

marlon said:


> Thanks Ras, but is the shoulder check a part of the base technique? Do you find it an effective functional means of contact manipulation? what does this mean for the rest of the technique, base vs. your version?
> 
> Marlon


 
We're slightly drifting off topic here with the discusion of Attacking Mace, but anyways....

I do that tech. stepping back and doing a left inward block. Again, speaking for *me* only, I teach the techs as taught to me, but I then provide the student with other options. Frankly I dont care how they block, as long as they dont get hit.  Inward block, parry the arm, whatever. We could keep the arm 'checked' with contact manip. or we could use a positional check. 

What happens to the rest of the tech? Depends on how the person is moving. If a certain target area isn't open, due to how they move, you simply adapt.  Instead of that kick going to the groin, you may have to strike another area, use a different kick, omit the kick altogether.

Furthermore, you'll notice that in many cases, we see the 'attackers' arm still being extended.  Is this really whats going to happen?  Are they really going to hold their arm out for you, so it'll be easier to grab?  That being said, things will have to be adapted, as I said, to how they move.


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## MJS

ATACX GYM said:


> I also have my students purposely targer thighs groins head ribs liver,kidneys,back of the neck temple eyes etc. with Attacking Mace hand and leg blows.It's a beautiful sight to see them pull it off,but it's not so rewarding to read posts where Captain Kenpo says "that's not Attacking Mace because you hit him in the head,not the body." Lolol.


 
LMAO!  I look at it like this....who cares where you hit?  Yes, 'ideally' it would be AM, IF, that being the key word here, everything went according to plan.  But personally, it shouldn't make a damn bit of difference if you hit the head instead of the body.  No, its not going to be the 'textbook' AM, and thats fine for me.  Whatever.  

Isnt it funny how you can watch someone who really knows how to do kata, do 2 or 3 or more, different applications to each move?  Yet somehow in Kenpo, when doing techs., its somehow wrong.  I should be able to step forward, parry the arm, punch the face, and knee them in the leg instead of kicking the groin.  Head, body....doesnt matter, IMO, as I'm still using the idea being AM.


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## marlon

MJS said:


> We're slightly drifting off topic here with the discusion of Attacking Mace, but anyways....
> 
> I do that tech. stepping back and doing a left inward block. Again, speaking for *me* only, I teach the techs as taught to me, but I then provide the student with other options. Frankly I dont care how they block, as long as they dont get hit.  Inward block, parry the arm, whatever. We could keep the arm 'checked' with contact manip. or we could use a positional check.
> 
> What happens to the rest of the tech? Depends on how the person is moving. If a certain target area isn't open, due to how they move, you simply adapt.  Instead of that kick going to the groin, you may have to strike another area, use a different kick, omit the kick altogether.
> 
> Furthermore, you'll notice that in many cases, we see the 'attackers' arm still being extended. Is this really whats going to happen? Are they really going to hold their arm out for you, so it'll be easier to grab? That being said, things will have to be adapted, as I said, to how they move.


 
Would not "how" you block help determine how the person is moving and therefore the complition of your technique?
Marlon


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## marlon

MJS said:


> LMAO! I look at it like this....who cares where you hit? Yes, 'ideally' it would be AM, IF, that being the key word here, everything went according to plan. But personally, it shouldn't make a damn bit of difference if you hit the head instead of the body. No, its not going to be the 'textbook' AM, and thats fine for me. Whatever.
> 
> Isnt it funny how you can watch someone who really knows how to do kata, do 2 or 3 or more, different applications to each move? Yet somehow in Kenpo, when doing techs., its somehow wrong. I should be able to step forward, parry the arm, punch the face, and knee them in the leg instead of kicking the groin. Head, body....doesnt matter, IMO, as I'm still using the idea being AM.


 
If you take the view that AM and every technique is a mini form then naturally multiple applications of the same mechanics are to be explored, but that is not mere opportunistic and / or random changes without regard for and working out the mechanics and their effects.  It should be specific recognition of the effects of the mechanics that the mini form has rather than changing the mini form based on what if's.  as much as kempo fighting is not about techniques the methoodology of teching is that there are different mini forms prepared to discuss the what if's.  Otherwise it becomes to easy to miss the dept of application of the catalogued information in the mini forms, including AM.  i am assming because that is how our techniques are used and discussed in SK
My humble 2 cents...I am prepared for the blasting  

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## ATACX GYM

marlon said:


> Would not "how" you block help determine how the person is moving and therefore the complition of your technique?
> Marlon


 

Yes,but you're block is dependent upon the attack.So THE ATTACK DETERMINES YOUR BLOCK.That's why I make my students run EVERY sequence off of EVERY block,slip,bob weave..from EVERY quarter of a 360 degree circle,while they're in clinch range and clinched up,seated,etc.During this time I make them do the sequence of blows only as they're originally taught as the launch point...exactly like you'd teach the 1-2 in boxing to say the head first before you go head-body.From that point I make them do the same thing but this time hit whatever's open...using the same sequence of blows.Within 4 days of practicing this technique they can reliably hit whatever target presents itself (women are entirely too fond of groin strikes,btw) AND feel confident that they can hit whatever target presents itself from whatever defensive posture or position or both that they find themselves in.I repeat this same sequence with weapons of various sorts (yes I teach weapons from Day 1) and of course on the ground...with a focus on getting back up to your feet. I teach gnp with Alter.Mac. (I actually call it "ALTER MACK" when talking to my class) and it sucks to be on the receiving end,too.

Here's 3 other things that I do that I have NEVER seen anyone else do: I TEACH HOW TO ATTACK WITH A DEFENSIVE SEQUENCE.For instance in Alter Mack I make my students attack with a diagonal hammerfist,which is the same movement of the inside block.I also change that movement to jabs,thrust puches,ridgehands,and whatever else...AFTER they see that they can hammer fist,forearm shiver and elbow SUCCESSFULLY with THE SAME MOVEMENT that the block with.I TEACH MY STUDENTS HOW TO SUCCESSFULLY APPLY THE PRIMARY ATTACK THAT IS SUPPOSED TO BE DEFENDED BY THE TECHNIQUE IN QUESTION.So in Alter Mack I teach how to get off cold pushes in combination with blows and escapes,as a means prevent or to counter Alter Mack.Students speedily pick up the second thing that I encourage and here I both offer my own base solution and INSIST that they create their own during the TECHNICAL SKIRMISH LINE (a drill I use that has one student face the whole class in a row,but no contact is to be made,the purpose is to sharpen the technical skill and responses of the students; I will allow freestyling by the attacker once the appropriate facility with the technique is gained;that usually takes 4 days. I allow it because by the 4-5th traiing day the students have had plenty of training with executing these techniques in the various ranges,and are already well versed with what can happen in a SKIRMISH LINE) and I make them remember their own counters,because I will let them do it.I want to encourage them to develope their own combos off of Alter Mack.They learn both my suggestion on how to counter the counter I teach and they confidently develope their own too...like slipping the jab is the counter to the jab and if you fire back they might slip block or roll your punch and you just play combat chess like that until the match ends.It happens quickly and their knowledge is deep.Gives me a huuuuge advantage when coaching because most coaches may be familiar with another coach yelling:"2-3! 2-3 (cross lead hand hook combo from boxing) so they can tell THEIR athlete how to counter mine.But noooobody knows what to do when I shout out:"BLADE EM! (5 SWORDS)" or "ALTER MACK!" or "PIMP SLAP (THRUSTING SALUTE...we cracked up lol when my students and I came up with that one)"! We just SLAUGHTER opposing schools at tournies.I'm not gonna give out all my call signs and signals so that's pretty much all you're gonna get for a good while from me.But it's a great idea,huh?


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## marlon

All the defense techniques are taught as ways to attack with me as well.  doesn't everybody?  prper ways of attacking are taught and count for grading.  I don't allow them to develop set ways of defending (it is a requirement much later on to develop ones own techniques, but much later), reaction drills of all types means they do end up defending with kempo even though it is not a set technique...Funny, the other day...well a while ago actually, cuase i have been laid up for a while, one of my black belts asked me when and why I taught a brown belt a high level black belt technique. Yeah, I didn't. during a reaction drill he responded with his kempo spontaneously and it was almost perfectly a 3rd degree technique.  He could tell you what he did but it came out well and with the right timing and body mechanics.  Fun stuff.  Btw, Ras, I enjoy you sharing what you do with your students.  Keep sharing

Respectflly,
Marlon


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## MJS

marlon said:


> Would not "how" you block help determine how the person is moving and therefore the complition of your technique?
> Marlon


 
Sure.  I guess where I was coming from though, was when you have no idea what type of attack is coming, and you just respond, you just go with it.  When you're doing the 'textbook' technique, yes, as I said, I teach it as it was taught to me.  But I like to work the tech. a bunch of different ways.


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## MJS

marlon said:


> If you take the view that AM and every technique is a mini form then naturally multiple applications of the same mechanics are to be explored, but that is not mere opportunistic and / or random changes without regard for and working out the mechanics and their effects. It should be specific recognition of the effects of the mechanics that the mini form has rather than changing the mini form based on what if's. as much as kempo fighting is not about techniques the methoodology of teching is that there are different mini forms prepared to discuss the what if's. Otherwise it becomes to easy to miss the dept of application of the catalogued information in the mini forms, including AM. i am assming because that is how our techniques are used and discussed in SK
> My humble 2 cents...I am prepared for the blasting
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon


 
I think this kinda goes back to having a technique for every possible attack.  A defense if the guy punches you and steps forward, another one if he throws a cross, another one if he throws a cross but you're standing with your left leg forward, and so forth and so forth.  

IMO, what you're suggesting (if I'm understanding correctly) works fine if the person knows whats happening.  But when the spontaneous, unknown attack comes....

Again, I teach all the little goodies that are contained in the IP tech.  But I like to take it a step further and teach my students to be able to use the same tech for a multitude of options.  AM is taught for a step thru punch.  but what happens when the guy throws a cross?  You step back, attempting to block the punch, you'll no longer be in range for anything else.  That being said, I should still be able to use the concepts of AM and adjust accordingly.  

I want my students to be able to respond to whats happening at the moment and each moment after that, by not being bound by an IP tech, but instead, use the ideas and concepts that those techs teach, and just react, defending themselves.


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## marlon

MJS said:


> I think this kinda goes back to having a technique for every possible attack. A defense if the guy punches you and steps forward, another one if he throws a cross, another one if he throws a cross but you're standing with your left leg forward, and so forth and so forth.
> 
> IMO, what you're suggesting (if I'm understanding correctly) works fine if the person knows whats happening. But when the spontaneous, unknown attack comes....
> 
> Again, I teach all the little goodies that are contained in the IP tech. But I like to take it a step further and teach my students to be able to use the same tech for a multitude of options. AM is taught for a step thru punch. but what happens when the guy throws a cross? You step back, attempting to block the punch, you'll no longer be in range for anything else. That being said, I should still be able to use the concepts of AM and adjust accordingly.
> 
> I want my students to be able to respond to whats happening at the moment and each moment after that, by not being bound by an IP tech, but instead, use the ideas and concepts that those techs teach, and just react, defending themselves.


 
No, no, i guess i wasn't clear. What I want t say is that the skill sets and differing targets and how to access them are taught through different techniques. The applications found in the mini forms would not be merely different targets just as the different applications of the regular forms do not show just a different place to strike. The different applications would be for example that back 2 knuckle to the chin, if the attackers arm is placed arcoss your center line could easily be a dislocation or break of the elbow...same movement but giving a different application.  Simplified example I know and some of these same movements will require differing weight distribution et al...but I just want to clarify the point.  As for spontaneous attacks, we respond with kempo not necessarily a particular named technique.


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## ATACX GYM

marlon said:


> No, no, i guess i wasn't clear. What I want t say is that the skill sets and differing targets and how to access them are taught through different techniques. The applications found in the mini forms would not be merely different targets just as the different applications of the regular forms do not show just a different place to strike. The different applications would be for example that back 2 knuckle to the chin, if the attackers arm is placed arcoss your center line could easily be a dislocation or break of the elbow...same movement but giving a different application. Simplified example I know and some of these same movements will require differing weight distribution et al...but I just want to clarify the point. As for spontaneous attacks, we respond with kempo not necessarily a particular named technique.


 

Why are they taught through different techniques? Maybe I'm not getting it here.Ae you saying that say ALTER MACK (alternating maces) would be taught hitting the sternum and forehead with the reverse punch and backfist respectively,but if you hit the groin and nose with the same weapons,using the same block entry...this would be a different technique because the same weapons targeted different areas of the opponent's body?


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## MJS

I still may be missing it here as well.  My intent is not to have a bunch of techs for a bunch of different attacks (which is what we have now) but instead to be able to take 1 tech and still using the ideas of the original tech, come up with other defenses.


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## ATACX GYM

I hope to get an answer here...what do you think about this,Doc?


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## Twin Fist

so take one tech and learn how to adapt it to various attacks?

of the same type or different types?

for example, alternating maces (2 hand grab or push) adapted for use vs a left hook?


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## ATACX GYM

Twin Fist said:


> so take one tech and learn how to adapt it to various attacks?
> 
> of the same type or different types?
> 
> for example, alternating maces (2 hand grab or push) adapted for use vs a left hook?


 

I do exactly that,and have defenses vs the hook.I have my ALTER MACK (alternating maces) defend vs a variety of hand strikes,grabs,takedown attempts,weaponry,ground techniques,etc...and it's largely the same technique.Slip trap check evade or roll the hook,parry or outside block it,thrust punch and back knuckle run off by both hands in succession,kicks and subs added in where appropriate.Take the base technique,put it in different scenarios and play with it.Functionally.Lol.


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## Twin Fist

most things will work with some thought, but there will be cases... i mean, i dont care who you are, making squeezing the peach work off a rt punch? no reason to even try since there are literally dozens of techniques and variations that would be better in that case.


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## ATACX GYM

Twin Fist said:


> most things will work with some thought, but there will be cases... i mean, i dont care who you are, making squeezing the peach work off a rt punch? no reason to even try since there are literally dozens of techniques and variations that would be better in that case.


 

Most instances I can think of off hand from prior experience? I tend to agree.But there may be that ESCAPE FROM CROWDED CLUB scenario where you're not really trying to engage but escape,some bad guy pops out from the crowd,swings a bottle or clubbing right hand,you roll it...he's off balance AND taller than you...aaaaand it's PEACH GRABBIN TIIIME!! If you can land a ridgehand to the nads in a situation? Then you can Grab Them Thar Peaches.Aaargh har har!


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## Twin Fist

i have been throwing the ridgehand to the groin for years in sparring....


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## ATACX GYM

Twin Fist said:


> i have been throwing the ridgehand to the groin for years in sparring....


 

There you are.Many people I know have been clocking other unsuspecting nads with ridgehands,and we can change that ridgehand to nad squeezery yankery and shaking the nads like dice you're about to roll in a dice game.


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## Inkspill

can you think of a reason why you would execute an underhand reverse handsword to the groin? I've found there are reasons for everything in Kenpo. before we go around changing everything, we have to examine the why's.


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## marlon

ATACX GYM said:


> Why are they taught through different techniques? Maybe I'm not getting it here.Ae you saying that say ALTER MACK (alternating maces) would be taught hitting the sternum and forehead with the reverse punch and backfist respectively,but if you hit the groin and nose with the same weapons,using the same block entry...this would be a different technique because the same weapons targeted different areas of the opponent's body?


 

I actually said not "just" striking different targets as there are other applications for the movements. that being said effectively striking different targets may require different entries, weight distribution, foot work...
Keep in mind that sk has a great deal less set techniques than AK


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## marlon

ATACX GYM said:


> I do exactly that,and have defenses vs the hook.I have my ALTER MACK (alternating maces) defend vs a variety of hand strikes,grabs,takedown attempts,weaponry,ground techniques,etc...and it's largely the same technique.Slip trap check evade or roll the hook,parry or outside block it,thrust punch and back knuckle run off by both hands in succession,kicks and subs added in where appropriate.Take the base technique,put it in different scenarios and play with it.Functionally.Lol.


 

Then I don't get why you teach some 60 techniques per belt.


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## MJS

marlon said:


> Then I don't get why you teach some 60 techniques per belt.


 
Your typical EPAK school will have 24 techs/belt, in addition to the katas/sets.  Again, IMO, you could cut that list in half and and then some. LOL.  My point, and I believe AGs as well, instead of having numerous techs that address numerous attacks, be able to adapt 1 tech to numerous situations. 

For example...if you were able to adapt a punch tech to fit other types of punches, grabs, etc, yes, in the end, you'll still end up with numerous techs, but the main difference, IMO anyways, is that you're simply adapting on the fly, vs. having to sort thru a huge list of techs, trying to process the attack, try to process the response, etc.  

Just like a kata....you should be able to come up with multiple applications for the moves in a kata.  Short 2 in the Parker system....step forward, right inward block, right outward handsword.  That move should be able to be applied to punches and grabs.  

For me, and the people that I teach, my focus is on the spontaneous response/reaction.  Drill the basics, to fit a number situations...that IMO, is the way to go.


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## marlon

MJS said:


> Your typical EPAK school will have 24 techs/belt, in addition to the katas/sets. Again, IMO, you could cut that list in half and and then some. LOL. My point, and I believe AGs as well, instead of having numerous techs that address numerous attacks, be able to adapt 1 tech to numerous situations.
> 
> For example...if you were able to adapt a punch tech to fit other types of punches, grabs, etc, yes, in the end, you'll still end up with numerous techs, but the main difference, IMO anyways, is that you're simply adapting on the fly, vs. having to sort thru a huge list of techs, trying to process the attack, try to process the response, etc.
> 
> Just like a kata....you should be able to come up with multiple applications for the moves in a kata. Short 2 in the Parker system....step forward, right inward block, right outward handsword. That move should be able to be applied to punches and grabs.
> 
> For me, and the people that I teach, my focus is on the spontaneous response/reaction. Drill the basics, to fit a number situations...that IMO, is the way to go.


 

i think that we are pretty much saying the same thing.  What I was trying to point out a few posts ago was that while finding a different target to strike is nice finding a different application of the movement in a particular technique, is more fascinating to me eg. a downward hammer strike could be an arm lock vs. hammer to the temple could be a hammer to the kidney. Because i already have a technique that shows me that a hammer to the kidney is an effective strike, and it shows me the mechanics and positioning needed to make it work optimally. Hopefully, i have explained myself better this time.
respectfully,
marlon


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## ATACX GYM

marlon said:


> Then I don't get why you teach some 60 techniques per belt.


 

MJS explained a good 2/3 of my reasoning,but I also include techniques from judo,bjj,wrestling,tkd,shaolin kempo,(yes...sk,which I hold a brown in),boxing,Muay Thai,kali,hapkido,tang soo do,hung gar,aikido,capoeira,and principles of seite-ryu iaido and fencing (almost all of which I hold instructor/coach/black belt+rank in) as essential aspects of my curriculum.This expands my base number of techniques per rank,but it all fits together very logically.Oftentimes my students can execute all or the overwhelming majority of each technique per rank in a single unbroken flow.My Kenpo karate (EPAK+my Uncle and Grandmaster Bobby Thomas+Sijo Muhammed) variant is the base art for everything I've subsequently added to it.


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## KenpoKevin

MJS said:


> Is the IP tech assuming that when the person grabs, the attacker will fully extend their arms?  If the person grabs and is going the pull in/push out, but not fully extending their arms, we're probably not going to get the break.




The initial step to the rear with the left foot and the settling of the base assists in the lock out.  It's designed as a "heavy drop".. to get attacker off balance, while at the same time, get YOU in balance. We want to get that guy stretched out so it's tough for him to throw that right punch. Then it's all about "torque".  We may not get the break on the left, but we may get a sprain or at the very least cancel the right for that instant. If he pulls us back in, then it becomes the end of Twin Kimono or Mace of Aggression, or Raking mace.  

I see that a lot of Kenpo guys don't realize that IP of some techniques are the "What if" for another.  I used to be one of those guys.   

 This technique does not assume a left hand lock out in IP.  Conquering Shield, however, does. 

Peace out Gents...


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## TaiChiTJ

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> There were also subsequent training manuals, which would list the concepts, principles, and study notes for each technique. Mr. Hale compiled them into a comprehensive journal, "The Kenpo Journal". Punch that into google or yahoo and you will have no trouble finding his site.



I am not a kenpo guy, I am enjoying reading this awesome thread. I jumped into google and sho 'nuf the kenpo journal is the first thing that came up. Quite an information base this kenpo guy has put together. Found an interesting quote from the journal, from GGM Parker: 
*Ed Parker on Techniques: 
*_[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]I teach Kenpo, not for the sake of teaching the techniques, but for the principles involved in them. And even then, these principles must be altered to fit the individual. 
The reason I give my techniques names is because there are certain sequences associated with these terms. If I told a student tomorrow that I was going to teach him a counter version to a double hand grab, it's not as meaningful as when I say I'm going to teach him Parting Wings. 
Youve got to know how to vary things. A lot of the techniques Ive worked with, theyre ideas, theyre not rules. At any given time, any of my moves can change from defense to offense, of-fense to defense. 
Martial artists, and Kenpo people especially, become so involved in doing the techniques exactly right in such and such amount of time, that they get caught in a pattern that they cant break. Thats not what theyre for. Specific moves, specific techniques are based, like the ABCs in the English language or standard football plays. 
You have to have a point of reference and from there the combi-nations are endless and limited only by universal laws, laws that you cant change. 
[/FONT][/FONT]__[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial][/FONT][/FONT]_[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]
Very cool. That is what alot of the posts here have been saying. 
[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial] 
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