# 11 year old boy arrested for drawing violent stick figure...



## Bill Mattocks (Feb 27, 2011)

Wow...

http://www.kwgn.com/news/kdvr-arvad...-stick-figure-drawing-20110221,0,607158.story



> ARVADA, Colo. -- An 11-year-old Arvada boy was arrested and hauled away  in handcuffs for drawing stick figures in school - something his  therapist told him to do.
> 
> The boys parents say they  understand what he did was inappropriate, but are outraged by the way  Arvada Police handled the case.
> 
> ...


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## Blade96 (Feb 27, 2011)

when i was in junior high school we used to sing joy to the world the school burnt  down and all the teachers died...the principal was dead, we shot him in  the head....to the tune of the christmas carol right. I guess we were  terrorists too. *roll eyes* terrorists before THE terrorists. Gimmie a king size break.


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## girlbug2 (Feb 27, 2011)

Incredible. The boy was learning to handle his ADHD in a constructive way, and he got punished for it. I feel for him.

Since when did we become a country of such PC pansies?


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 27, 2011)

It just brings joy to my heart when I hear that someone is calmer once he draws violent images targeting his teacher, but School shootings are up since you guy's were kids; so, maybe this is one of those signs they have the teachers look for now.
Sean


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 27, 2011)

Touch Of Death said:


> It just brings joy to my heart when I hear that someone is calmer once he draws violent images targeting his teacher, but School shootings are up since you guy's were kids; so, maybe this is one of those signs they have the teachers look for now.
> Sean



I can understand such drawings to be an area of concern by school authorities.  I can understand why they'd investigate to make sure there was no threat to the teachers.

I do not understand why, once they had determined there was no threat, they arrested the child.  What purpose does that serve?


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 27, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I can understand such drawings to be an area of concern by school authorities.  I can understand why they'd investigate to make sure there was no threat to the teachers.
> 
> I do not understand why, once they had determined there was no threat, they arrested the child.  What purpose does that serve?


He was made an example of.
Sean


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## granfire (Feb 27, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I can understand such drawings to be an area of concern by school authorities.  I can understand why they'd investigate to make sure there was no threat to the teachers.
> 
> I do not understand why, once they had determined there was no threat, they arrested the child.  What purpose does that serve?




The same purpose as suspending girls for sharing a Mydol or a kid for telling the teacher she accidentally swapped lunch pails with mom and has a steak knife in school...


I think there are numerous reasons why school shootings are up, but certainly one is IMHO that kids don't learn to deal with their frustrations anymore.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 27, 2011)

Touch Of Death said:


> He was made an example of.
> Sean



Think the word is going to spread via the shadowy underworld network of criminal stick-figure-drawing children everywhere that this behavior is no longer tolerated?  Should work like a charm.


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## Bob Hubbard (Feb 27, 2011)

When I was a wee rugrat I had a habit of kissing girls.  In todays world I'd have been arrested and charged as a sex offender. 
I suppose based on this story I'd also have a 'violent watch' tag on me too as I used to draw epic stick figure battles too.  Lots of bombs, and tanks and all.


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## Big Don (Feb 27, 2011)

Zero Tolerance means no one is thinking...
Arrested for drawing a picture: Mind Crime


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## Ken Morgan (Feb 27, 2011)

Im working in a grade three/four class right now, in it there are about six boys who love anything military, they draw soldiers, tanks, planes, missiles, people being shot, you know the stuff all eight year old boys like. No one seems to take it seriously. 

Some people try so very hard to do the right thing all the time, and in so doing follow the rulebook without veering, all it proves is that common sense, isnt all that common after all.


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## LuckyKBoxer (Feb 27, 2011)

girlbug2 said:


> Incredible. The boy was learning to handle his ADHD in a constructive way, and he got punished for it. I feel for him.
> 
> Since when did we become a country of such PC pansies?


 
what was the official date Obama was elected?


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## Cryozombie (Feb 27, 2011)

LuckyKBoxer said:


> what was the official date Obama was elected?



Please.  This Zero Tolerance ******** started WAY before Obama.


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## elder999 (Feb 27, 2011)

Cryozombie said:


> Please. This Zero Tolerance ******** started WAY before Obama.


 

The phrase "zero tolerance" was first applied to anti-crime methods in a report written in 1994:Kelling, _Managing 'Squeegeeing': a problem solving exercise_,G.L., Julian, M. and Miller, S., New York: NYPD. 

I don't know when it was first applied in schools, but it's truly ********. Back in NY, my son was sent to the office, and I had to come in and take him home for the day, for having a_ plastic_ knife with his lunch.....luckily, though, he wasn't expelled or anything-that was before the 1994 report. Still......


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## Ken Morgan (Feb 27, 2011)

elder999 said:


> , my son was sent to the office, and I had to come in and take him home for the day, for having a_ plastic_ knife with his lunch.....luckily, though, he wasn't expelled or anything-


 
?? Kids bring plastic knives to school all the time.


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## elder999 (Feb 27, 2011)

Ken Morgan said:


> ?? Kids bring plastic knives to school all the time.


 

In Canada, maybe. Here in the States-land of gun violence-the schools have a zero tolrance policy for weapons, and a plastic knife, is a *knife*, is a _weapon._ 

And, since Columbine, I think, kids have been _arrested_ for them, too.


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## Scott T (Feb 27, 2011)

elder999 said:


> In Canada, maybe. Here in the States-land of gun violence-the schools have a zero tolrance policy for weapons, and a plastic knife, is a *knife*, is a _weapon._
> 
> And, since Columbine, I think, kids have been _arrested_ for them, too.


Jesus. Thanks be to whatever diety I believe in that I live in the land of the free-er!


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## Scott T (Feb 27, 2011)

Bob Hubbard said:


> When I was a wee rugrat I had a habit of kissing girls.  In todays world I'd have been arrested and charged as a sex offender.
> I suppose based on this story I'd also have a 'violent watch' tag on me too as I used to draw epic stick figure battles too.  Lots of bombs, and tanks and all.


You too? I thought I was the only one psychologically damaged enough to do that! %-}


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## Ken Morgan (Feb 27, 2011)

elder999 said:


> In Canada, maybe. Here in the States-land of gun violence-the schools have a zero tolrance policy for weapons, and a plastic knife, is a *knife*, is a _weapon._
> 
> And, since Columbine, I think, kids have been _arrested_ for them, too.


 
Metal rulers, pencils, pens, scissors, heavy books, chairs, a coffee mug, rocks, a baseball, glass beakers&#8230;
Off the top of my head I can think of many things much more accessible and dangerous then a plastic knife in any classroom.


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## geezer (Feb 27, 2011)

LuckyKBoxer said:


> what was the official date Obama was elected?



C,mom Lucky
... you are old enough to remember Jimmy Carter!  But seriously, I'm a liberal (sort-of) and I hate this "PC" garbage as much as anybody. And I work for some pretty _conservative_ people who enforce this PC garbage daily. Go figure. Maybe it has more to do with gutlessness than political orientation.

Now back to the OP.... the only way I'd get after a kid for drawing any kind of stick figures is if he drew them on my car with a permanent marker!  You may or may not know that I'm a high art school teacher. I once had a kid sneak behind my desk and somehow get a obscene stick-figure drawing onto my desktop (in less than a minute while I was busy helping another kid). I hit the ceiling. I took him aside and explained that if anybody saw it I'd get fired and he'd have a "_real_ teacher ...the type with no sense of humor" for the rest of the year. Then I made him clean up the room for the rest of the week. Believe it or not, that pretty well fixed the situation. That and_ locking my computer_ whenever I leave my desk!


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 27, 2011)

Ken Morgan said:


> Metal rulers, pencils, pens, scissors, heavy books, chairs, a coffee mug, rocks, a baseball, glass beakers
> Off the top of my head I can think of many things much more accessible and dangerous then a plastic knife in any classroom.



Heck it was like that after 9/11 when I was told I could not bring my eyeglass screwdriver onboard the aircraft, and then I saw a woman sitting on the plane knitting with huge stainless steel knitting needles.  Yeah, common sense by the bushel.  The problem with people is that they're mostly idiots.  The bigger problem is the ones with authority and the firm belief that this causes brains to appear in their mostly-empty noggins.


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## Flea (Feb 27, 2011)

Honestly, I don't fault the teacher all that much.  Since Columbine et al, an image like that is a HUGE red flag.  And as his teacher it's reasonable for her to take it a little personally.  I think the principal is the one who went way too far.  Where is the obvious middle ground?  Call his parents, call the school counselor, call the school nurse, call the kid's therapist.

Now the kid and his family are probably traumatized by the whole thing, fostering a fully justified distrust of authority and some dysfunctional ways of working out problems and disagreements in the future.  On one level, the teacher and principal did their jobs in a stellar way:  the kid got an education, all right.  The ripple effect is bound to be interesting.


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## girlbug2 (Feb 27, 2011)

I have always loved to draw, and it was probably around the age of 11 or so that I took an interest in what the kids around me were drawing in the margins and on the backs of their notebooks. Without exception, the boys at that age were drawing violent things. Some were more detailed than stick figures, and in fact many were very elaborate depictions of warfare in all its gory detail. Popular subjects seemed to be fanged and clawed monsters, shootings, bombs and explosions. This is just the kinds of drawings that I took note of casually glancing at the desks around me. Nobody seemed particularly alarmed back then, and as far as I know, these were just normal kids. Girls at that age draw unicorns and rainbows, boys draw guns.

What probably alarmed the teacher is that the drawing was depicting her specifically. Okay I get that, but is that really all so unusual? Isn't drawing in one's notebook at that age the visual equivalent of a diary? They work out their frustrations in drawings instead of words, so what? So if a kid wrote in his diary that he wished his teacher would drop dead, do we get alarmed and declare him mentally unstable? Is it a reason to suspend or expel him?

I can tell you, in Jr. High School there had been many times I wished certain teachers would drop dead!  As well as siblings and even parents. But no, I had no actual intent to harm anybody and quickly forgot those wishes a minute later. Had I drawn a picture of my internal fantasies however, would that have been more of a cause for alarm than if I'd expressed it in a diary?


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## MJS (Feb 27, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Wow...
> 
> http://www.kwgn.com/news/kdvr-arvad...-stick-figure-drawing-20110221,0,607158.story


 
To be honest, I'm not surprised that this happened. While the arrest may've been a bit over the top, I could see the cause for concern and possibly for calling the police. While this child may have an attention disorder, he's showing signs that could lead to a tragedy.

I also have to wonder if this child was in a special class, with other kids with similar behavior issues.  It also seems to me that the doc who told this kid to do these drawings, wasn't thinking.  I mean, did he honestly think that by doing this, it wouldn't raise a concern?


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## Kacey (Feb 27, 2011)

Flea said:


> Honestly, I don't fault the teacher all that much.  Since Columbine et al, an image like that is a HUGE red flag.  And as his teacher it's reasonable for her to take it a little personally.  I think the principal is the one who went way too far.  Where is the obvious middle ground?  Call his parents, call the school counselor, call the school nurse, call the kid's therapist.



Unfortunately for this child, he's in Arvada, CO - perhaps 20 or 30 miles from Columbine.  After Columbine, people here in Colorado began responding strongly to anything that suggested violence toward an _actual person, _and it's that part, I suspect, that was more of a problem than the violence of the drawing.  After Columbine, a zero tolerance law was passed for weapons; at one point in time that included paper claws that kids would wear for Halloween.



Flea said:


> Now the kid and his family are probably traumatized by the whole thing, fostering a fully justified distrust of authority and some dysfunctional ways of working out problems and disagreements in the future.  On one level, the teacher and principal did their jobs in a stellar way:  the kid got an education, all right.  The ripple effect is bound to be interesting.



The child in this article follows in the tradition of the 8 year-old girl who grabbed her mother's lunch by mistake and very appropriately gave the paring knife she found to a teacher... who gave it to the office... where the principal, under legal obligations from the zero tolerance, mandatory reporting and expulsion laws, very regretfully expelled her - for one day, that being the minimum possible.  Schools in Colorado are not only very cautious, but the use of common sense in such cases can cost school personnel their jobs.

Shortly after the 8 year-old girl episode, a coworker was on duty in our school cafeteria, when a girl in the cafeteria pulled a fork and knife (she said it looked more like a butter knife than anything else) out of her lunch bag to cut her chicken... and in violation of the law, she walked up to her quietly and told her to put the knife away before anyone could see it.  Had she been caught in such a violation, it could have cost her not just her job, but her teaching certification, and thus her career.  In the face of such considerations, I can understand those who report.  

I also noticed in the article that the school had decided to drop the issue when the police forced the issue further:  "At first, the school did not want to press charges, but changed their mind when police called them later that night."


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## MA-Caver (Feb 27, 2011)

I drew war drawings in school as well... nobody raised a fuss. 

We've become a nation of PC loving pansies because of the changes to our legal system which says a person can sue another for being offended by something someone said, did or acted or whatever. Don't offend anyone and everything will be alright. 

Doesn't matter how this is resolved, the boy will be thinking about how bad it is to express himself from now on. Therapist or no he's not going to trust anyone to tell him what is the right thing to do, because do it and you get arrested. 

No punitive damages will be able to rectify that.


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## granfire (Feb 27, 2011)

Kacey said:


> Unfortunately for this child, he's in Arvada, CO - perhaps 20 or 30 miles from Columbine.  After Columbine, people here in Colorado began responding strongly to anything that suggested violence toward an _actual person, _and it's that part, I suspect, that was more of a problem than the violence of the drawing.  After Columbine, a zero tolerance law was passed for weapons; at one point in time that included paper claws that kids would wear for Halloween.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




So because life is rough and throws turds at the fan at times we castrate everybody from making common sense decisions and punishing people - even little ones - for doing the right thing, or not being automatons...


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## Kacey (Feb 27, 2011)

granfire said:


> So because life is rough and throws turds at the fan at times we castrate everybody from making common sense decisions and punishing people - even little ones - for doing the right thing, or not being automatons...


The nanny state is alive and well.


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## MJS (Feb 27, 2011)

MA-Caver said:


> I drew war drawings in school as well... nobody raised a fuss.
> 
> We've become a nation of PC loving pansies because of the changes to our legal system which says a person can sue another for being offended by something someone said, did or acted or whatever. Don't offend anyone and everything will be alright.
> 
> ...


 
While I see your point, I think there are other ways to express yourself, without going to this length.  I mean, its just like the forum.  Some people can disagree and leave it at that, while others have to resort to calling names, and taking personal shots.  Is allowing this kid to express himself, via violence, the answer to his issues?  IMO, no.  When this kid gets older, is he going to actually follow thru with his 'expressions' and take it a step further from just a drawing?  Who knows, he may take a gun, and start shooting people, yet will the doc say that he's just expressing himself?  

These are the signs that I talk about, when discussions like this come up.  Problem is, either nobody sees the signs, and in cases like this, when they do, nobody wants to act.


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## MA-Caver (Feb 27, 2011)

MJS said:


> While I see your point, I think there are other ways to express yourself, without going to this length.  I mean, its just like the forum.  Some people can disagree and leave it at that, while others have to resort to calling names, and taking personal shots.  Is allowing this kid to express himself, via violence, the answer to his issues?  IMO, no.  When this kid gets older, is he going to actually follow thru with his 'expressions' and take it a step further from just a drawing?  Who knows, he may take a gun, and start shooting people, yet will the doc say that he's just expressing himself?
> 
> These are the signs that I talk about, when discussions like this come up.  Problem is, either nobody sees the signs, and in cases like this, when they do, nobody wants to act.


Is it a sign? I said that I myself have drawn war violence while I was this kids age 
myself yet I haven't gone out to a clock tower and started shooting people now have I? 
No-one can predict what any one person will do or is capable of. You, yourself could snap and go on a killing spree. Any one of us neh? 
Sure the Columbine killers wrote out all their frustrations and angst and pain and everything else that made them snap and kill their classmates. Other shootings same ting. Why it happens? Why not before 20-40 years ago? Who is to say. 
How many are slipping through the cracks? How many are getting by the system without notice? 
IF this one kid is a potential killer then please prove it to me otherwise if he wants to express himself in the best way an *11 year old kid can* then by all means. When he gets older he can learn more appropriate ways of expression. Patience raises the child, patience and understanding.. patience, understanding and (appropriate) love.


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## MJS (Feb 27, 2011)

MA-Caver said:


> Is it a sign? I said that I myself have drawn war violence while I was this kids age
> myself yet I haven't gone out to a clock tower and started shooting people now have I?
> No-one can predict what any one person will do or is capable of. You, yourself could snap and go on a killing spree. Any one of us neh?
> Sure the Columbine killers wrote out all their frustrations and angst and pain and everything else that made them snap and kill their classmates. Other shootings same ting. Why it happens? Why not before 20-40 years ago? Who is to say.
> ...


 
I have no kids, but lets assume that I did.  The kids are always in a good mood, happy, laugh, friendly, engages in discussion with my wife and I.  Suddenly, I begin to notice that they dont want to talk as much, they start to isolate themselves, perhaps dress a bit different than they usually do, etc.  Is that just a kid going thru a phase?  Or is it a sign that something is wrong?  

Did you have the same issues this kid has?  Or were you just drawing for the sake of drawing?  I never drew pics that depicted violence.  Did anyone else on here?  Sorry, but something that may've been acceptable 20yrs ago may not be today and vice versa.  Were there Columbine incidents 20-30yrs ago?  

We will probably have to agree to disagree on this.  IMO, what you're saying is probably what many people say.  And then one day, when a tragedy happens, the next thing out of someones mouth will be, "Gee, I'm shocked that Johnny took a gun to school and shot 20 people.  I never thought that he'd do something like that before.  He didn't seem like a violent person."  

Would it be acceptable if this kid 'expressed' himself, by killing animals?  How about physically abusing a sibling?  Sorry, I disagree....stuff like this is not acceptable behavior IMO.


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## Blade96 (Feb 27, 2011)

I know of a case where they punished a girl for having THE BOMB written on her schoolbag. They either didnt know or care that BOMB is a popular slang word for great. "That's great!" "That's the bomb!" Same thing, only these planks didn't care.


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## Carol (Feb 28, 2011)

The parents in the community...as well as everyone here...knows exactly what happened BECAUSE of the arrest.  Period.

Had the police not been involved, the parents would have been told nothing...except for stories told by other kids.  What if you had a 10 or 11 year old that came home talking about a disturbed kid who drew a violent photo directed at someone in class?   You called the school and....then what?

They don't say anything, yes?  You don't get the straight story, even if you are a parent of a child in the same class, correct?  You wouldn't know who it was, what the threat was, or to whom it was directed.  I don't think we'd be hearing the criticism of it all being politically correct.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 28, 2011)

If we are all just going to sit and roll our eyes when teachers spot and act on alarming behavior, it is no wonder that violent actions in the school are still happening. Perhaps this child will get some real help.
Sean


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## MJS (Feb 28, 2011)

Carol said:


> The parents in the community...as well as everyone here...knows exactly what happened BECAUSE of the arrest. Period.
> 
> Had the police not been involved, the parents would have been told nothing...except for stories told by other kids. What if you had a 10 or 11 year old that came home talking about a disturbed kid who drew a violent photo directed at someone in class? You called the school and....then what?
> 
> They don't say anything, yes? You don't get the straight story, even if you are a parent of a child in the same class, correct? You wouldn't know who it was, what the threat was, or to whom it was directed. I don't think we'd be hearing the criticism of it all being politically correct.


 


Touch Of Death said:


> If we are all just going to sit and roll our eyes when teachers spot and act on alarming behavior, it is no wonder that violent actions in the school are still happening. Perhaps this child will get some real help.
> Sean


 
Exactly!!  There've been incidents here in CT, in which something happened, and the parents raise hell, because they a) weren't notified, b) weren't notified in what they felt was a timely fashion, c) there were issues with notification systems, ie: emails, phone calls, textmessages, etc.  Yet another case of damned if you do, damned if you dont.  Do something, get **** on.  Dont do something, get **** on.  Hmm...doesnt sound like a win-win situation to me.


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## granfire (Feb 28, 2011)

Carol said:


> The parents in the community...as well as everyone here...knows exactly what happened BECAUSE of the arrest.  Period.
> 
> Had the police not been involved, the parents would have been told nothing...except for stories told by other kids.  What if you had a 10 or 11 year old that came home talking about a disturbed kid who drew a violent photo directed at someone in class?   You called the school and....then what?
> 
> They don't say anything, yes?  You don't get the straight story, even if you are a parent of a child in the same class, correct?  You wouldn't know who it was, what the threat was, or to whom it was directed.  I don't think we'd be hearing the criticism of it all being politically correct.



I know teachers are supposed to be trained professionals, but I have my doubts they can catch everything. 
On the other hand, while the communication between kids and adults is somewhat iffy at times, among themselves it usually works pretty well.



Touch Of Death said:


> If we are all just going to sit and roll our eyes when teachers spot and act on alarming behavior, it is no wonder that violent actions in the school are still happening. Perhaps this child will get some real help.
> Sean



Well, to me it's like bringing out a tank to arrest a shoplifter. The responses have outgrown the reason. 
yes, there have been school shootings. Or other bad things happening in school. but those are few and far between. 
But we are getting swamped with crazy new regulations.

As far as the story goes, the kid was under the care of a psychologist. I would guess that this person was more qualified than the average police officer to deal with this sort of thing. 
Personally I think that a lot of these aggression problems are rooted in our sedative lifestyles. There is not much room for young boys to just run and scream, maybe even have a little fight along the way without everybody going nuts. There is no real recess at school anymore, you know, were they just open the doors and let the kids play and talk with whom they want, a game of tag or red rover...
Much of that type of activities is relegated to the virtual world. But the feelings that creates have to be let out somewhere.


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## MJS (Feb 28, 2011)

granfire said:


> I know teachers are supposed to be trained professionals, but I have my doubts they can catch everything.
> On the other hand, while the communication between kids and adults is somewhat iffy at times, among themselves it usually works pretty well.


 
How is communication amongst the kids, going to help the adults?  Is a child going to add/remove parts of the story?  Many times, parents find out about incidents from their kids, and freak out for the reasons I listed in my last post.  Were I a parent in school, and something like this happened, I'd want to know from someone in the school or the police, not rely on getting 100% accurate info from my child.





> Well, to me it's like bringing out a tank to arrest a shoplifter. The responses have outgrown the reason.
> yes, there have been school shootings. Or other bad things happening in school. but those are few and far between.
> But we are getting swamped with crazy new regulations.


 
I'd say situation depending.  In a case like this, when you could be dealing with a serioius threat, I'd rather use the tank.  Again, as I said before, if the police, school, doesnt address it, they get **** on.  



> As far as the story goes, the kid was under the care of a psychologist. I would guess that this person was more qualified than the average police officer to deal with this sort of thing.
> Personally I think that a lot of these aggression problems are rooted in our sedative lifestyles. There is not much room for young boys to just run and scream, maybe even have a little fight along the way without everybody going nuts. There is no real recess at school anymore, you know, were they just open the doors and let the kids play and talk with whom they want, a game of tag or red rover...
> Much of that type of activities is relegated to the virtual world. But the feelings that creates have to be let out somewhere.


 
This implies that the doctor is always right.  I'll disagree.


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## ballen0351 (Feb 28, 2011)

granfire said:


> Well, to me it's like bringing out a tank to arrest a shoplifter. The responses have outgrown the reason.
> yes, there have been school shootings. Or other bad things happening in school. but those are few and far between.
> But we are getting swamped with crazy new regulations.
> 
> .


Yeah and had the teacher and police just brushed it off and said oh kids being kids and next year this kid kills a bunch of people.  You would be the same one screaming why didnt the police do anything they knew he had issues a year ago.


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## LuckyKBoxer (Feb 28, 2011)

there is not quite enough information to make an informed opinion on this I think.
when I was a kid I always drew violent cartoons..
tanks and battleships and warplanes and soldiers with guns and knives..
fight scenes with blood galore.... rambo all over the place...
my family was all military and my brother and cousins and i would often run around the hills behind our houses building forts, sneaking in supplies(candy, soda, sticks, matches etc.) have wars throwing dirt clods at each other, try to sneak up on each other and beat each other with sticks.... just stupid wild kid stuff..

but all that being said the things I never did...
was specify who was being "killed" in my drawings... it was generic... it was war type violence for the sake of wartype violence..
the one thing that gave me chills about this was that he specifically wrote that the teachers must die on his drawings, specified himself as the killer, and depicted their murders...
that seems to be another step above being fascinated with war, and violence... that seems to  struggling with plans on actually following through.

I have no idea how to approach this, but if the kid is that disturbed that he is drawing himself murdering his teachers, he probably needs to be removed from the situation to begin with and go from there.


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## LuckyKBoxer (Feb 28, 2011)

elder999 said:


> In Canada, maybe. Here in the States-land of gun violence-the schools have a zero tolrance policy for weapons, and a plastic knife, is a *knife*, is a _weapon._
> 
> And, since Columbine, I think, kids have been _arrested_ for them, too.


 
yes but the religious tools of the Sikhs are not considered weapons and they are allowed to bring them to schools....??
plastic knives banned... geesh i think a sharpened pencil would be more deadly then a plastic knife.


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## LuckyKBoxer (Feb 28, 2011)

girlbug2 said:


> I have always loved to draw, and it was probably around the age of 11 or so that I took an interest in what the kids around me were drawing in the margins and on the backs of their notebooks. Without exception, the boys at that age were drawing violent things. Some were more detailed than stick figures, and in fact many were very elaborate depictions of warfare in all its gory detail. Popular subjects seemed to be fanged and clawed monsters, shootings, bombs and explosions. This is just the kinds of drawings that I took note of casually glancing at the desks around me. Nobody seemed particularly alarmed back then, and as far as I know, these were just normal kids. Girls at that age draw unicorns and rainbows, boys draw guns.
> 
> What probably alarmed the teacher is that the drawing was depicting her specifically. Okay I get that, but is that really all so unusual? Isn't drawing in one's notebook at that age the visual equivalent of a diary? They work out their frustrations in drawings instead of words, so what? So if a kid wrote in his diary that he wished his teacher would drop dead, do we get alarmed and declare him mentally unstable? Is it a reason to suspend or expel him?
> 
> I can tell you, in Jr. High School there had been many times I wished certain teachers would drop dead! As well as siblings and even parents. But no, I had no actual intent to harm anybody and quickly forgot those wishes a minute later. Had I drawn a picture of my internal fantasies however, would that have been more of a cause for alarm than if I'd expressed it in a diary?


 
I can agree with what you said until the end...
it would be the equivalent of writing in their diary, I want to get a gun and shoot my teachers in the head.

if he had drawn a picture of himself looking confused and a bunch stick figured payign down with Xs on their eyes I doubt it would have gathered the same attention.


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## ballen0351 (Feb 28, 2011)

LuckyKBoxer said:


> there is not quite enough information to make an informed opinion on this I think.
> when I was a kid I always drew violent cartoons..
> tanks and battleships and warplanes and soldiers with guns and knives..
> fight scenes with blood galore.... rambo all over the place...
> ...



I agree as soon as he spelled out his "target" it became more then just a kid drawing war pictures.  It deserved a little more attention.


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## crushing (Feb 28, 2011)

LuckyKBoxer said:


> yes but the religious tools of the Sikhs are not considered weapons and they are allowed to bring them to schools....??
> plastic knives banned... geesh i think a sharpened pencil would be more deadly then a plastic knife.


 
There is no place for reason, logic and common sense when it comes to the law!  If the people were able to easily recognize what the law considered right or wrong, and if the breaking of such laws were prosecuted consistently, then the people would know exactly where they stand and why.


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## Nomad (Feb 28, 2011)

Ken Morgan said:


> Metal rulers, pencils, pens, scissors, heavy books, chairs, a coffee mug, rocks, a baseball, glass beakers&#8230;
> Off the top of my head I can think of many things much more accessible and dangerous then a plastic knife in any classroom.



Well, sure they're more dangerous, but none of those are "weapons", whereas, in their minds, a knife is, even a plastic one...


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## Nomad (Feb 28, 2011)

MJS said:


> Did you have the same issues this kid has?



No, I didn't.  I was bullied on a regular basis, which some people might have seen as a warning flag of impending violence.



MJS said:


> Or were you just drawing for the sake of drawing?  I never drew pics that depicted violence.  Did anyone else on here?



I did.  I was big into comics at that age (up until around 18 or so), and did some very violent comic-book type art (along with writing stories to go with it).  Some of these included depictions of demons and devils (ANOTHER warning sign!)



MJS said:


> Would it be acceptable if this kid 'expressed' himself, by killing animals?  How about physically abusing a sibling?  Sorry, I disagree....stuff like this is not acceptable behavior IMO.



Absolutely not.  But I'd argue that there's a *HUGE* difference between drawing a picture (or playing a violent video game for that matter... another "sign" that is often pointed to after an incident) and committing actual acts of violence (against other people or animals).

To me, the main point would be that a very quick investigation would have revealed this as a _therapeutic technique advised by a mental health professional_ as a means of dealing with the child's issues.  As such, an arrest was completely unwarranted.


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## ballen0351 (Feb 28, 2011)

Nomad said:


> To me, the main point would be that a very quick investigation would have revealed this as a _therapeutic technique advised by a mental health professional_ as a means of dealing with the child's issues.  As such, an arrest was completely unwarranted.



An Arrest is not always punitive there are many programs available to Juveniles that are not available except thru the Criminal Justice system.  Fair or not its the way things are because of funding.  Ive had parents beg me to arrest their kids because they have tried to get them into programs and they are turned away because they kid has never been arrested before which is another warning sign.  Im also sure the therapeutic technique was not to label your targets.  Any kid that has so much rage and anger inside they need to draw pictures of death to calm down prob should not be in a school setting.  If I found out a kid like this was in my kids class Id be down to the school demanding my kid be transfered.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 28, 2011)

If they ever saw the stuff I drew in my note books back in my High School days....


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## granfire (Feb 28, 2011)

ballen0351 said:


> An Arrest is not always punitive there are many programs available to Juveniles that are not available except thru the Criminal Justice system.  Fair or not its the way things are because of funding.  Ive had parents beg me to arrest their kids because they have tried to get them into programs and they are turned away because they kid has never been arrested before which is another warning sign.  Im also sure the therapeutic technique was not to label your targets.  Any kid that has so much rage and anger inside they need to draw pictures of death to calm down prob should not be in a school setting.  If I found out a kid like this was in my kids class Id be down to the school demanding my kid be transfered.



I don't know, but being escorted out of school is pretty darn punitive to me.
You know, one of them things that nobody will likely forget, ever...or maybe the ones looking will forget about it.

In general - though I like the teachers I have dealt with in the last 8 years - I still trust a somebody trained in the field more than them. Even with the caveat that some of the shrinks and such could not find their behind with both hands.
Now we created yet another example of the unintended side effects of actions like this:

Even if that kid is to return to school...
He was told by an authority figure to act one way
just to be punished by another one.
I don't think that his anger towards the teacher will deminish with what transpired, he will be like more careful as to how to express this frustration. 
And the kid next to him. and so on and so forth.


Granted that news articles are notoriously inaccurate (it's like the new form of the plague...) But I am venturing a guess that the situation could have been resolved with minor uproar if the teacher would have simply picked up the phone and called the parents.


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## ballen0351 (Feb 28, 2011)

granfire said:


> I don't know, but being escorted out of school is pretty darn punitive to me.
> You know, one of them things that nobody will likely forget, ever...or maybe the ones looking will forget about it.


I didnt ready that part of the story.  Most time kids are marched around the school in cuffs for all to see. Most times kid is called to the office and then walked out.  kids are in class so nobody even sees anything



> In general - though I like the teachers I have dealt with in the last 8 years - I still trust a somebody trained in the field more than them. Even with the caveat that some of the shrinks and such could not find their behind with both hands.
> Now we created yet another example of the unintended side effects of actions like this:
> 
> Even if that kid is to return to school...
> ...


May be he does not need to be in school.  If your so angry you cant calm yourself down without thinking about killing someone you should not be allowed in a public school its a recipe for danger.


> Granted that news articles are notoriously inaccurate (it's like the new form of the plague...) But I am venturing a guess that the situation could have been resolved with minor uproar if the teacher would have simply picked up the phone and called the parents.


and would yo still feel that way if the parents didnt address the problem and next week the kid comes in and stabs a kid?  How many news reports would be out there about how this teacher ignored a dangerous sign and she should be fired or charged.  How many threads on here would be started about how the police should have know this kid had issues and stopped this before he killed someone?


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## ballen0351 (Feb 28, 2011)

granfire said:


> I don't know, but being escorted out of school is pretty darn punitive to me.
> You know, one of them things that nobody will likely forget, ever...or maybe the ones looking will forget about it.
> 
> .


From another report he was not in school when he was arrested he was at home so none of the kids saw it.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...violent_stickfigure_drawing_made_in_scho.html

It was heart wrenching to see my... 11-year-old son walk out my front door in handcuffs," said the child's mother in a report Monday on Fox 31 News in Denve


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## Big Don (Feb 28, 2011)

Xue Sheng said:


> If they ever saw the stuff I drew in my note books back in my High School days....


I graduated in 90, and had a pocket knife of one kind or another, in my pocket everyday. 
The only time I came close to getting into trouble for it, the a hole economics teacher told me to keep it in my pocket. I'd only taken it out to sort through the change in my pocket...


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 28, 2011)

Big Don said:


> I graduated in 90, and had a pocket knife of one kind or another, in my pocket everyday.
> The only time I came close to getting into trouble for it, the a hole economics teacher told me to keep it in my pocket. I'd only taken it out to sort through the change in my pocket...


 
Got you beat by over 10 years 

And I carried a Buck Knife, folding hunter, to school. 

In the sheath and absolutly no one cared.


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## MJS (Feb 28, 2011)

Nomad said:


> No, I didn't. I was bullied on a regular basis, which some people might have seen as a warning flag of impending violence.


 
I was too.  I did not let this turn me suicidal though.  I spoke with my parents about any issues and it was dealt with.  I was lucky....the school actually did something to protect their students from bully issues.  OTOH, when I was in school it wasnt nearly as bad as it is today.



I did. I was big into comics at that age (up until around 18 or so), and did some very violent comic-book type art (along with writing stories to go with it). Some of these included depictions of demons and devils (ANOTHER warning sign!)





> Absolutely not. But I'd argue that there's a *HUGE* difference between drawing a picture (or playing a violent video game for that matter... another "sign" that is often pointed to after an incident) and committing actual acts of violence (against other people or animals).
> 
> To me, the main point would be that a very quick investigation would have revealed this as a _therapeutic technique advised by a mental health professional_ as a means of dealing with the child's issues. As such, an arrest was completely unwarranted.


 
Yup, and I watched cartoons such as the road runner, where the coyote was constantly falling off a cliff, getting blown up, and never tried anything I saw.  I watched horror movies, and I never dressed up as Jason and ran after my sister or neighbors with a knife.  Its all common sense, and were I to do that, it would be addressed by my parents, not passed off as kids being kids.  

As I and a few others said....were nothing to be done, all the people bitching about the way the cops dealt with this, would be bitching that nothing was done.  A no win situation all around.  Fact is, this kid has isses, serious ones at that, and they need to be dealt with before this kid does what nobody thinks he could do....act on his threats.


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## yorkshirelad (Feb 28, 2011)

In primary school, my Mother was brought into school bcause a group of us lads were always fighting. We were friends, but we would split our group into two and one group would battle against the other. We enjoyed it, the teachers knew we were doing it, but sometimes one or two of us would get injured. We'd get the "I told you so" speech and then get back at it another day.

One day, things got a little out of hand and and the majority of us got some kind of injury. I got a knee in the face, which resulted in a black eye.

The teachers had had enough. We were all made to stand at attention with our noses against the wall, down the corridor leading to the Head mistress' office, to await our parents. I remember seeing Mum walk past me towards the office, with a look of total disappointment on her face. The Headmistress recommended that we all go to the shool appointed psychiatrist, but our parents refused, "they're just being boys" was their answer, and they were right.

Then in high school, I had a habit of drawing a picture of one of my teachers. This particular teacher had a really weird face. He had a huge forehead and a small chin, which he would try to disguise with a ginger beard. I would draw his face, but I couldn't be bothered drawing the body, so I drew his head as if it had been cut off, with the blood dripping off of the neck line. He was a super nice guy and thought it was funny. Nowadays, I'd be in a padded cell after all this behaviour.

Society has gotten so PC and sue happy that everyone's afraid to do anything. This inturn leads to stress, which in turn can lead to violent outburst. I feel sorry for kids these days. They are prohibited from expressing themselves and as far as I'm concerned, it's unnatural!


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## Big Don (Feb 28, 2011)

Xue Sheng said:


> Got you beat by over 10 years
> 
> And I carried a Buck Knife, folding hunter, to school.
> 
> In the sheath and absolutly no one cared.


My dad, in the early 50's used to put his .410 in his locker so he could shoot rabbits on the way home. Some days, his teachers went with him.


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## granfire (Feb 28, 2011)

ballen0351 said:


> From another report he was not in school when he was arrested he was at home so none of the kids saw it.
> http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...violent_stickfigure_drawing_made_in_scho.html
> 
> It was heart wrenching to see my... 11-year-old son walk out my front door in handcuffs," said the child's mother in a report Monday on Fox 31 News in Denve



Oh good grief...


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 1, 2011)

Big Don said:


> My dad, in the early 50's used to put his .410 in his locker so he could shoot rabbits on the way home. Some days, his teachers went with him.


 
Right. I had to get up in the morning at ten o'clock at night, half an hour before I went to bed, eat a lump of cold poison, work twenty-nine hours a day down mill, and pay mill owner for permission to come to work, and when we got home, our Dad would kill us, and dance about on our graves singing "Hallelujah."

And no one at school cared


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## granfire (Mar 1, 2011)

Xue Sheng said:


> Right. I had to get up in the morning at ten o'clock at night, half an hour before I went to bed, eat a lump of cold poison, work twenty-nine hours a day down mill, and pay mill owner for permission to come to work, and when we got home, our Dad would kill us, and dance about on our graves singing "Hallelujah."
> 
> And no one at school cared



You forgot walking twelve miles uphill in waist deep snow - both ways!
I had it way more rough than you!


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## CanuckMA (Mar 1, 2011)

granfire said:


> You forgot walking twelve miles uphill in waist deep snow - both ways!
> I had it way more rough than you!


 

Piddle. I had to do that barefoot.


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 1, 2011)

CanuckMA said:


> Piddle. I had to do that barefoot.


You had feet? Luxury!


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## CanuckMA (Mar 1, 2011)

Touch Of Death said:


> You had feet? Luxury!


 
We passed the one pair of feet amongst the 30 siblings, all living in a one room hovel. With no roof.


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