# New WTF sparring rules



## FearlessFreep (Mar 19, 2005)

I've seen this subject come up a few times in other locations.  Apparently, WTF is going to change the sparring rules

 1) 10'X10' sparring area (down from 12'X12')
 2) Enforce punch scoring (and require gloves)
 3) 2 minute rounds, for men (down from 3)
 4) 'Sudden Death' overtime round

 Any thoughts?  My take is that the are trying to make sparrers more aggressive to make the matches more exciting.  I don't have aproblem with that.


----------



## Jim Tindell (Mar 19, 2005)

Yay @ punching.


----------



## terryl965 (Mar 19, 2005)

All I can say is (it's about time) punches should have always counted in the first place. I know alot of school are going to have problems with this since they do not believe in punches in the first place so my Students will have the advantage in that regards since we teach it to them and do alot of open that allow punches. Like I said Yea!


----------



## FearlessFreep (Mar 19, 2005)

Our sabomnim encourages punching when in range.  In fact, we practice certain counter-strikes that invovle moving in close and punching.  So that aspect works for our favor.

 I forgot to mention going with four judges as well.  Not sure how that changes competition, except maybe allowing both sides to score simultaneously if you get two red votes and two blue votes or something


----------



## Miles (Mar 19, 2005)

This is a very exciting time for Taekwondoin. The WTF solicited comments as to making the game more interesting from a spectator's perspective. While I like the larger competition area from a competitor's viewpoint, from that of a referee, the smaller area is much better!  

 Saw what the gloves look like-sort of silly, but that's just first impression.

  Miles


----------



## bignick (Mar 19, 2005)

I'm very pumped about about the hands coming back into play.  Are they changing the gloves?  What do they look like?  Will they be allowing face contact?  And if not, why do gloves need to be required?


----------



## ajs1976 (Mar 20, 2005)

Any word on what type of punches?  Can a point be scored by touching the other person with your fist, or does there have to be some force behind it?


----------



## Jim Tindell (Mar 20, 2005)

I'm interested in seeing these new gloves.

I often spar without gloves, but I always leave with skinned knuckles from punching the chest protector.


----------



## Adept (Mar 20, 2005)

Now, if we can just get them to include knee and forearm strikes...


----------



## bignick (Mar 20, 2005)

Adept said:
			
		

> Now, if we can just get them to include knee and forearm strikes...


 Word


----------



## MichiganTKD (Mar 20, 2005)

They're trying to make it more exciting, not get people hurt. Why would they allow knee strikes? One of the aesthetics of Tae kwon Do free fighting, especially WTF tournament style, is beautiful kicking. Not necessarily self-defense oriented, but beautiful. By including knee strikes, they are no better than the Neanderthals in the UFC or K-1. Tae kwon Do should be above that.


----------



## bignick (Mar 21, 2005)

I don't think that TKDs kicks are going anywhere, but I don't see anything wrong with getting tied up with your opponent and being able to throw a knee to his midsection. 

 The big reason that I do not like WTF competition is because it is very restricted...I'm not advocating going out into the ring and gouging your opponents eyes or shattering their knee. But, we spend all this time practicing all the various techniques of tae kwon do and then when we spar so much is disallowed. No open hand strikes, no back fists, no hand contact or even faking to the head with the hands, punches are pretty much discouraged cause they never score. I think the purpose of sparring should be to refine your technique safely in a more realistic situation than just forms and things like one step sparring can provide. There does need to be a tradeoff between safety and realism, but I think the tradeoffs have gone far beyond safety. Full blown kicks to the head are much more dangerous than allowing a backfist or palm strike to the chest protector. 

 Often when people rag on taekwondoists for only being able to kick and saying if someone ever got in close they'd be done for, people respond with the fact that tae kwon do does use things like elbow and knee strikes and many various other close range techniques. And we certainly do. But when was the last time anybody ever practiced them in a so called "live" situation...not many, I'd guess. Because they aren't practiced as much, the average person is going to have problems using them in a real life situation, if they remember them at all.


----------



## Adept (Mar 21, 2005)

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> They're trying to make it more exciting, not get people hurt. Why would they allow knee strikes?


 Because they are part of TKD and it is a TKD organisation. If they are disallowing knee strikes during sparring, then what are they doing? It sure isn't TKD.



> One of the aesthetics of Tae kwon Do free fighting, especially WTF tournament style, is beautiful kicking. Not necessarily self-defense oriented, but beautiful.


 Yes, but that isn't TKD. It's just kicking for its own sake. A TKD organisation should allow all practical TKD techniques in its sparring. Dissallowing punches was farcical. Continuing to dissallow knees, forearm strikes, various joint manipulations and take downs they are not sparring as TKD students, but something else with arbitrary and artificial limitations.



> By including knee strikes, they are no better than the Neanderthals in the UFC or K-1. Tae kwon Do should be above that.


 Neanderthals? What makes you say that? The fighters in K-1, Pride and the UFC are high level professional athletes. They don't fight like a TKD sparring match, but that doesn't make them less intelligent or civilised than a TMA practitioner.


----------



## MichiganTKD (Mar 21, 2005)

Actually Bignick, from what I've been told of WTF tournaments, even at the higher levels, some free fighters are not averse to throwing those techniques if they think they can get away with it. It depends on where they are in points, and the angle of the judges. Not justifying it, just stating that it probably already happens. Just not legally.


----------



## Jim Tindell (Mar 21, 2005)

I punched a kid square in the head last month during a tournament. The center judge was just :erg:

 I didn't even do it on purpose, it was just instinct because I was tied up in the corner.

 And if you guys want elbow strikes and knee strikes, you're in the wrong martial art for competition. This isn't Muay Thai.


----------



## FearlessFreep (Mar 21, 2005)

My Sabomnim mentioned today that they are going to allow kicks to the back.  Any thoughts on that?  He was saying that people take advantage of the current rules to use the back defensively


----------



## bignick (Mar 21, 2005)

What I've heard is that anything covered by the hogu is a legal striking area, so with all these wraparound hogu's like the J3 and others, that would be legal.  However, the spine is still illegal, but there, I've heard of people using workaround because if your foot hits a legal target area, that's all some judges look for.  So I guess what some will do is kick to the back and make their foot wrap around and hit the ribs while they are basically just doing a shin kick to the spine and/or kidneys.   Cheap and dirty.


----------



## Adept (Mar 22, 2005)

Jim Tindell said:
			
		

> And if you guys want elbow strikes and knee strikes, you're in the wrong martial art for competition. This isn't Muay Thai.


 Why the wrong martial art? Are not elbow and knee strikes part of TKD? They can be (relatively) safely implemented in sparring matches in other arts, so why not TKD? And why not include takedowns and joint manipulation? These are all parts of TKD that, for some reason I cannot fathom, are left out of most sparring and competition matches.


----------



## Jim Tindell (Mar 22, 2005)

How would they score that? Or takedowns?

The scoring system for TKD isn't welcome to non-hand & non-foot techniques. This would require an entire revamp of the scoring system, as well as ring arrangement.

Besides, the way TKD sparring is done is a change from something like Muay Thai or that MMA stuff. These would all be too similar otherwise.


----------



## Adept (Mar 22, 2005)

But surely incorporating as much of the art as possible into sparring is more important than just having variety for its own sake.

 Scoring is only required for competitions, and there are already many competition models that can be used as a basis.


----------



## bignick (Mar 22, 2005)

There's a difference between sparring for competition and sparring as part of your normal training.  I think that the competition rules make sparring not nearly as useful as it could be in training.  Don't get me wrong, i's fun, it's good excersize, but you're only working select techniques that really only apply to very select situations.  Sparring should be part of your practice to improve your techniques and reactions, not a competitive thing.  It's the focus on competition and working within competition rules that, I believe, has given TKD a bad rep sometimes within the martial arts community.  And it's not just us either, judo has a lot of the same problems.


----------



## Miles (Mar 22, 2005)

FearlessFreep said:
			
		

> My Sabomnim mentioned today that they are going to allow kicks to the back. Any thoughts on that? He was saying that people take advantage of the current rules to use the back defensively


Jay,  the rules have allowed for kicking to the back for about 3 years.  Only the spinal column is not a scoring area.  That is why there is newer style hogu out there.

Competitors will always try to take advantage of the rules....and the newbie referee or judges... 

Miles


----------



## Miles (Mar 22, 2005)

Adept said:
			
		

> But surely incorporating as much of the art as possible into sparring is more important than just having variety for its own sake.
> 
> Scoring is only required for competitions, and there are already many competition models that can be used as a basis.


Adept, if point karate incorporated full-contact kicks and punches, sweeps, throws, elbows, and grappling.... and......if Taekwondo incorporated sweeps, throws, elbows and grappling, ....and if judo incorporated punches, kicks, elbows.....and if muay thai incorporated grappling....wouldn't they all be doing MMA?

I think each of these arts looks at what differentiates it from other arts-these are the core elements and strategies.  To maintain their individual identity and to emphasize these core elements, they necessarily limit these other elements out of their sparring.

Taekwondo does have sweeps, throws, elbows, knees-these are practiced in the poomsae.

Miles


----------



## TigerWoman (Mar 22, 2005)

Miles said:
			
		

> Taekwondo does have sweeps, throws, elbows, knees-these are practiced in the poomsae.



Also they are practiced in our self-defense, apart from regular sparring.TW


----------



## Fortis (Mar 22, 2005)

I think this is good news.

As far as sparring goes, I believe it shouldn't be about practicing the sport and scoring points (unless you're training to be an olympic athlete or to compete all the time), but about honing the techniques we learn every day in a controlled, live situation.


----------



## Adept (Mar 23, 2005)

Miles said:
			
		

> Adept... if Taekwondo incorporated sweeps, throws, elbows and grappling.... wouldn't they all be doing MMA?


 MMA is a term to describe the mixing of martial arts. It also covers a seriesof sporting events. What I would like to see is not the mixing of TKD and anything else, but the utilisation of the full (within reason) spectrum of TKD techniques in commonplace sparring and competitive events. Elbows, knees, sweeps and some grappling are already a part of the TKD syllabus. Why not use them in sparring, especially in large commerical competitive events?



> To maintain their individual identity and to emphasize these core elements, they necessarily limit these other elements out of their sparring.


 On a personal level I see no value at all in individuality for its own sake. In terms of a martial art, surely both instructors and students should be concentrating on learning the full extent of their art, regardless of what other styles are teaching and learning?



> Taekwondo does have sweeps, throws, elbows, knees-these are practiced in the poomsae.
> 
> Miles


 My wish would be to have them in sparring as well.


----------



## Fortis (Mar 23, 2005)

I agree with Adept.  I feel like TKD is watered down compared to other arts when it comes to sparring and its use of existing techniques.  I think it mostly has to do with the competition rules and most schools using those as a guideline.


----------



## Blindside (Mar 23, 2005)

Hey, do they allow kenpo guys into this forum. j/k 

A couple of years ago a local TKD school was having a small tournament, and we were invited.  The odd thing was they wouldn't tell us the rules, actually to be fair the head of their organization (franchise/chain) wouldn't tell the local instructor what rules were going to be used (so he wouldn't tell us).  So we show up and are told the rules....

Full contact, continuous, no punches to the head, no groin, basically all you can do is hit the hogu.  So far we aren't real surprised.  One point for hand techs, three points for kicks, and the odd ball two points for a knee.  

We asked why we couldn't hit the head, and were told that if we wanted to use the head we would have to snap the head to get a point, but if we knocked the guy out we were going to be DQ'd.  Err, ok.  So we didn't punch to the head.

Under those rules the tournament turned into a clinch and knee fest.  Most of the fighters would just run in, grab the top of the hogu, and start kneeing.  NOT pretty, and not really what I would call TKD.  While we pretty much cleaned up at the tournament, we were hoping that they would hold the tournament again so that we could actually train for it.  If this is what your tournaments would turn into, then I REALLY don't recommend it.  

Lamont


----------



## headhunter (Mar 23, 2005)

I agree with Miles 100%!
p.s Does anyone know how I can make the color of my belt change on my screen?


----------



## ajs1976 (Mar 23, 2005)

headhunter said:
			
		

> p.s Does anyone know how I can make the color of my belt change on my screen?


I think the color if the belt under you name is related to your post count. As you post more, it will change.


----------



## TigerWoman (Mar 23, 2005)

headhunter said:
			
		

> I agree with Miles 100%!
> p.s Does anyone know how I can make the color of my belt change on my screen?



See this thread...it depends on post count. 
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1813



			
				Blindside said:
			
		

> Full contact, continuous, no punches to the head, no groin, basically all you can do is hit the hogu. So far we aren't real surprised. One point for hand techs, three points for kicks, and the odd ball two points for a knee



I'm surprised that they didn't kick to the head often.  That's most of what we do in TKD. Although light contact to the head, it isn't always that easy to pull it back.  We are allowed hand techs to the head just not the face in our tournaments.  We wear cage headgear and are also required to wear gloves...some of us can really punch and not all chestgear are equal.  We are required to set someone back or show noticeable movement for points.  We use back spine protectors on our chestgear too. I think our rules are pretty good.  We don't do the knee strikes, why do that when you can do a jump spin sidekick and really push him back. Besides knees are more fragile.  TW


----------



## Blindside (Mar 23, 2005)

These weren't standard WTF rules, the reason they didn't kick was the ruleset.  

Yes you could kick me and get three points, but if I close, clinch, and do 5 knee strikes in a row I get 10 points.  The ruleset favored the knees.  That being said it was rather humorous to have a kenpo school doing more kicking than a TKD school, mostly burying fade-away sidekicks as these guys charged in to clinch.  They didn't like that at all. 



> We are required to set someone back or show noticeable movement for points.



What if they grunt real hard and their face turns pale? 

Another thing that worked well is if you did a knee strike just under the armpit where the hogu doesn't have much padding, and works better when you stretch that side out by trapping his arm in the clinch.  That guy was listing pretty hard at the end of the round.  

Lamont


----------



## Marginal (Mar 23, 2005)

TigerWoman said:
			
		

> We don't do the knee strikes, why do that when you can do a jump spin sidekick and really push him back. Besides knees are more fragile.  TW



If you're in range for a knee strike, a jump spin side kick would be jammed at that distance. 

Any documentation/studies that demonstrate a knee strike is more likely to inflict injury upon the guy delivering the strike?


----------



## TigerWoman (Mar 23, 2005)

You can gain distance still though to do jump back. Even within arm's range, I can do it.   My instructor taught that once and I thought it was pretty nifty. 
TW


----------



## Blindside (Mar 23, 2005)

You do understand what a "clinch" is right?

Otherwise you are claiming you can do a jump spinning side/back kick when someone has you grabbed around the neck/upper body.  This I gotta see.

Lamont


----------



## bignick (Mar 23, 2005)

Different tools are appropriate for different situations, the jump back kick is a very common kick at my school. The distance we train it from is with your guard up and your elbow touching your opponent. Basically, as close as you can get without pressing your whole body against them. Like any other back kick, it is a pretty strong kick, but because you are forced to jump backwards to gain distance, you lose some of the power that other versions of the spinning back kick or spinning side kick generate. 

 But like Blindside said, from the clinch? I don't think that I would even trust myself (6'5'' 330 lbs.) to break away from someone that has ahold of me to do that kick, the slightest jerk while you're in the air would throw off your balance and dump your neatly onto the ground. 

 Speaking of, with the competition rules, how often do you work counters to your kick getting grabbed, illegal in competition but a great reality for us high kickers in real life.

 I think a lot of our disagreement comes from the two different ways of looking at sparring, a form of competition/sporting event or as a training tool for refining your techniques. Nothing wrong with either one, but they are going to emphasize different things. We spar with WTF rules, no head contact with the hands, period. I'd really like to see things changed to allow more of the art into sparring.

  By the way, Blindside, you're more than welcome to stop in here anytime.


----------



## Blindside (Mar 24, 2005)

> By the way, Blindside, you're more than welcome to stop in here anytime.



Thanks Nick! 

I'll mostly lurk here, most of my experience is sparring TKD guys rather than training in it, and generally not sparring under their rules to boot....

Lamont


----------



## Jim Tindell (Mar 25, 2005)

Are these changes into effect now? On the website they just say they are "ready to change" the rules. There's a tournament I'm going to next week, and I'm interested to see if these new rules will be into effect during our sparring.


----------



## Miles (Mar 26, 2005)

No, the new rules are not in effect in the USA officially yet.  However, some tournaments may start utilizing them.

 Miles


----------



## JanneM (Mar 29, 2005)

The new sparring rules are introduced to world as mentioned in the first post except for the gloves. The new rules comes in two sets.

New rules that (should) aply in Madrid are.
3x2min for men
Sudden death extra round

New rules that should aply in 2006 are.
10m by 10m competition are
Fourth corner judge shall be added.

Some other points executive counsil discuss in Lausanne was putting more value on hit points. adding gloves and foot protection. This was included in tlak about the electronic scoresystem. And coloured uniforms.

I think all rules that are now coming untill 2006 are fine and might make the fight bit more interesting to spectators. I also like the fact that punching can score points(as they can now). I dont think we should make it easier, we just need t make sure the referees know how to score punches.
I don't like the iea of electronic scoresystem because it's not reliable at this point. I dont like the extra protections. It kills some of the spirit of the fight. I don't like the idea of coloured uniforms. We allready have fully coloured chest guards and helmets.

(I'm sorry for my English but I'n not a native English speaker)


----------



## Adept (Mar 29, 2005)

JanneM said:
			
		

> I dont think we should make it easier, we just need t make sure the referees know how to score punches.
> I don't like the iea of electronic scoresystem because it's not reliable at this point.


 I don't like the idea of blow-by-blow scoring at all. I prefer the round by round scoring, as used by the UFC and other organisations. In that the round 'winner' gets 10 points, and the loser gains nine points or less depending on how badly they sucked. You base 'winning' on things like ring control, aggression, technique, power, etc. It's usually pretty easy to tell who was in control for a particular round, and you use three (or five) judges to make sure you don't get split decision draws.



> (I'm sorry for my English but I'n not a native English speaker)


 Don't sweat it. You speak english a lot better than I speak any other languages.


----------



## Digger70chall (Mar 29, 2005)

it is usually apparent to us who is in control but i've seen plenty of fights where i can only imagine what the judges were watching, it's going to be like that in any sport with ref/judges.  I think scoring hits is a more decisive way of keeping track.  It definitely leaves out lotsa factors in the fight though. 
 respectfully,
 Derrick Ransom


----------



## Adept (Mar 29, 2005)

Digger70chall said:
			
		

> it is usually apparent to us who is in control but i've seen plenty of fights where i can only imagine what the judges were watching, it's going to be like that in any sport with ref/judges.


 Heh, I remember reading a sci-fi book set in the future with robotic referees who were (close to) perfect. But in order to simulate reality they were programmed to make one incorrect call per game.




> I think scoring hits is a more decisive way of keeping track. It definitely leaves out lotsa factors in the fight though.


 Decisive, but IMHO innacurate. The true 'value' of a blow should lay in how badly it hurt the opponent. It is practically impossible to judge that for the majority of blows in a round. Sure, you get the 'Oooh, that will leave a mark!' hits where the crowd winces, but most of the time it's much harder. Did he connect, or did the other guy sufficiently change his stance in order to cause the blow to glance off? Was that a punch that jerked his head back, or was he pulling it back out of effective range? Did that shot to the ribs hurt him? Did he even feel it?


----------



## FearlessFreep (Mar 29, 2005)

_Heh, I remember reading a sci-fi book set in the future with robotic referees who were (close to) perfect. But in order to simulate reality they were programmed to make one incorrect call per game._

If I guess correctly, that was in the Piers Anthony series based on a slave/gamer in one world (Proton) who crosses to an alternate reality version of the same world (Phaze) where he has magic power.  In the 'technology' world they have an elaborate gaming system.  In one game, the hero is playing football against an opponent and everyone on the field but the two opponents are robots.  Anyway the refs are robots and a mistake call goes against the hero and the mistake by the robot refs is explained as being built into the system that there would be one random blown call per game

_Decisive, but IMHO innacurate.   The true 'value' of a blow should lay in how badly it hurt the opponent._

That sorta applies both ways.  A flurry of light blows versus a few very hard blows, who wins the round?  You could say one side is being 'aggressive' and the other side is being 'tactical'.  I think it may be more subjective on a per-blow basis to award blows on contact and be subjective if their is 'enough; contact, but in the end '6-4' landed blows is less subjective than awarding per round.  At least you know what the judge is scoring and can work toward that.

Besides, even blows not scored have an effect.  The ideal is that you are hitting your opponent hard, not *just* to score but also to keep them from coming back.  You hit the hogu hard enough to knock the wind from the guy...he doesn't come back as fast or may be open for multiple hits while he catches his breath.  He hit hard to a target area are but the guy blocks it...well...no point but if you hit hard then now he's a little sorer, meaing he'll be a bit less likely to be effective blocking in the future.  So you say "the true 'value' of a blow should lay in how badly it hurt the opponent." but there is a tactical advantage to making that happen ablve and beyond scoring.  At least that's how my instructor teaches (hit hard, not just for points but for physical/psychological effect) and that's my understanding of how it's to be done.


----------



## JanneM (Mar 29, 2005)

Adept said:
			
		

> I don't like the idea of blow-by-blow scoring at all. I prefer the round by round scoring, as used by the UFC and other organisations. In that the round 'winner' gets 10 points, and the loser gains nine points or less depending on how badly they sucked. You base 'winning' on things like ring control, aggression, technique, power, etc. It's usually pretty easy to tell who was in control for a particular round, and you use three (or five) judges to make sure you don't get split decision draws.


Taekwondo beng an Olympic sport  doesent allow round by round judgin. Poinst scored is the only way IOC accepts winner to be diceded. Thats why we have an sudden death round these days. To avoid decisions made by favoritisim or voting.

As I said I think current rules with new implaments are just fine.

We are living exciting times for competition taekwondo because continuance of Olympic spot is on a line and up coming world championships of poomsae.


----------



## TX_BB (Mar 29, 2005)

There seems to be some misconceptions on how points are awarded at WTF tournaments. Points are awarded with contact and demonstration of power, not just contact. There is a certain amount of judging on how hard a strike is. Standards of power are different for both head and body shots.  Points need to be validated by at least 2 of three judges who are located equidistant around the ring. So unlike some sports its not the total number of strikes that each player can accumulate, there is a judgment of power and accuracy.

Writing about what Id like to see covered weapons or target areas. I like covering the striking areas. It makes it visually clear where the hitting areas are for both player and spectator.

The problem I have with covering the weapons is two fold. Number 1, we do not cover all the striking tools, so that if you were to get kicked with a back kick to the torso there would probably be more broken ribs. Number 2, is in order to protect the opponent the padding alters the action. Look at boxing, if you were allowed to use bag gloves in boxing just imagine the knockouts and broken ribs.


----------



## Marginal (Mar 29, 2005)

TX_BB said:
			
		

> Number 2, is in order to protect the opponent the padding alters the action. Look at boxing, if you were allowed to use bag gloves in boxing just imagine the knockouts and broken ribs.



How would that signifigantly differ from a UFC style striking exchange?


----------



## TX_BB (Mar 30, 2005)

You grapple.


----------



## JanneM (Mar 30, 2005)

Why should we allow fist to the head in a first place in WTF style TKD sparring?
I think that would cahnge the fight so mouch that it would just not be the same anymore.

We have a goos sport at the moment and we should amke the best out of it. If someone wants to depart them selfs from the Kukkiwon and WTF then they are not practising taekwondo anymore.

I think there is only two types of taekwondo that can call them selfs taekwondo. Kukkiwon/WTF style and ITF style. Only those two organisations have some ground in calling them selfs taekwondo.
All others are just something that rides on the fame of taekwondo.
But all this is another topic.


----------



## Marginal (Mar 30, 2005)

TX_BB said:
			
		

> You grapple.



Doesn't answer my question. I asked how boxing with lighter gloves would differ from a UFC style STRIKING exchange. 

Where are the shattered ribs?


----------



## Miles (Mar 30, 2005)

JanneM said:
			
		

> We are living exciting times for competition taekwondo because continuance of Olympic spot is on a line and up coming world championships of poomsae.


 Totally agree with you JanneM.  Everyone should be brushing up on their Poomsae.

 Miles


----------



## TX_BB (Mar 30, 2005)

Marginal said:
			
		

> Doesn't answer my question. I asked how boxing with lighter gloves would differ from a UFC style STRIKING exchange.
> 
> Where are the shattered ribs?



If your grappling your not striking. If all you do is strike and not hold or grapple you will be doing more exchanges. The game is different in the UFC an in order to provide some form of safety the purposely diminish the tools of a striker.


----------



## bignick (Mar 30, 2005)

JanneM said:
			
		

> We have a goos sport at the moment and we should amke the best out of it. If someone wants to depart them selfs from the Kukkiwon and WTF then they are not practising taekwondo anymore.


 Exactly, if you only train under these rules you are playing the sport of taekwondo.  And if you look at it through the sport mindset the current way is great...and there is nothing wrong with that.  But I would rather see people be able to use more of the art of taekwondo.  



			
				JanneM said:
			
		

> I think there is only two types of taekwondo that can call them selfs taekwondo. Kukkiwon/WTF style and ITF style. Only those two organisations have some ground in calling them selfs taekwondo.
> All others are just something that rides on the fame of taekwondo.
> But all this is another topic.


 Perhaps it is, but I think I need to say something.  I think this is a pretty poor statement.  There are WTF schools out there that aren't doing anything that looks like anything like taekwondo.  There are good schools and bad schools in every organization.  The forms may change, the emphasis may shift, the rules may be different, but it is still taekwondo.  Organizations  issue and recognize ranks and determine rulesets.  That's really it.  WTF isn't a style of taekwondo any more than the NFL is a football team.  The ATA, KTA, and small schools without affiliation have just as much right to call what they do tae kwon do as the next school.  Styles of taekwondo, like Chung Do Kwan, Moo Duk Kwan, and Sang Moo Kwan don't even really exist anymore.


----------



## Marginal (Mar 31, 2005)

TX_BB said:
			
		

> If your grappling your not striking.



Ah. So by that reasoning, boxing wouldn't change at all because boxers tend to clinch when they get in close?

(There are standup exchanges in the UFC which do not involve grappling you realize...)


----------



## JanneM (Mar 31, 2005)

bignick said:
			
		

> Exactly, if you only train under these rules you are playing the sport of taekwondo.  And if you look at it through the sport mindset the current way is great...and there is nothing wrong with that.  But I would rather see people be able to use more of the art of taekwondo.


By talking sbout the rules of WTF kyorugi we are refering to the sport aspect of the art.
Taekwondo is a martial art with different categorys and aspects of the art but we are not talking about them in this thred. I belive that we are talking about competition rules of WTF.



> Perhaps it is, but I think I need to say something.  I think this is a pretty poor statement.  There are WTF schools out there that aren't doing anything that looks like anything like taekwondo.  There are good schools and bad schools in every organization.  The forms may change, the emphasis may shift, the rules may be different, but it is still taekwondo.  Organizations  issue and recognize ranks and determine rulesets.  That's really it.  WTF isn't a style of taekwondo any more than the NFL is a football team.  The ATA, KTA, and small schools without affiliation have just as much right to call what they do tae kwon do as the next school.  Styles of taekwondo, like Chung Do Kwan, Moo Duk Kwan, and Sang Moo Kwan don't even really exist anymore.


By refering to KTA I belive that you mean Korea taekwondo association. That is a national member organization not a club or style and they are totaly different issue.
I don't eaven want to go to ATA. I mean I don't have any real contact in ATA except from the internet. I have met GM Paul Hong thou. He was nice enough guy but we met only breafly in Kukkiwon. But anywho those camo belts...

If there is taekwondo school that doesent have taegugs and yandja poomsae or ITF tul, then it should not be called taekwondo. It should be called something alse.
If there is a school that has poomsae of them own. they should not be called taekwondo.
If there is a school that does only competition training (starting from the beginners) they should not be called taekwondo. (I can understund if there is a group of fighters who wants to emphasis on fighting but they should practise atleast up to 1.dan to do so)
if there is a school that does only poomsae and not sparring they should not be called taekwondo
If there is aschool that has Kukiwon poomsae and ITF sparring or ITF tul and WTF sparring it could be called taekwondo but they should decide what they want to be or call them selfs something else.
etc...
See my point? Taekwondo is a set and you can't say that you practise taekwondo if you dont do all thats in the set. You can do extra. but you should follow Kukkiwon instructions of taekwondo guidlines. (Or if you are on ITF side. You must follow the teachings of Choi Hong-He.)

And I don't think that we shoulc eaven duiscuss about the KWans of today in taekwondo because they stopped excisting in the 50's.


----------



## bignick (Mar 31, 2005)

JanneM said:
			
		

> If there is taekwondo school that doesent have taegugs and yandja poomsae or ITF tul, then it should not be called taekwondo. It should be called something alse.


 Well, I guess since my school practices the palgwe forms we aren't really doing taekwondo...I'll have to find out what it is I've been doing then.


----------



## JanneM (Mar 31, 2005)

bignick said:
			
		

> Well, I guess since my school practices the palgwe forms we aren't really doing taekwondo...I'll have to find out what it is I've been doing then.


Well. In my oppinion no your not doing taekwondo as it should be done.
If you want to practise taekwondo as it is and call your selfs taekwondoin why not do the way Kukkiwon has planed taekwondo to be done?
Palgwe is a fine set of poomsaes but it has been replaced with taeguks by Kukkiwon years and years ago. (Yudanjas I believe you make as they are suposed to be made)
Do you think that you can really represent kukkiwon if you don't follow their guidelines?

(Now remembers. I'm not judging you or your teacher. I'm trying to make a point far beyond personas)


----------



## Adept (Mar 31, 2005)

JanneM said:
			
		

> Well. In my oppinion no your not doing taekwondo as it should be done.


 And now we get down to it.

 Frankly, I don't think you get to decide what can, with any amount of legitimacy, be called TKD. So long as a school or style is similar to the style that originated in Korea after world war II, then, to me, it is TKD or something  similar. To be honest, I've never really concerned myself with names of arts and styles. It's why I list my style in my profile as MMA.


----------



## JanneM (Mar 31, 2005)

Adept said:
			
		

> And now we get down to it.
> 
> Frankly, I don't think you get to decide what can, with any amount of legitimacy, be called TKD. So long as a school or style is similar to the style that originated in Korea after world war II, then, to me, it is TKD or something  similar. To be honest, I've never really concerned myself with names of arts and styles. It's why I list my style in my profile as MMA.



You indentify your art as MMA. I see you have high respect for Bruce Lee and wish to practise like him. That is all fine. I also practise MMA and have high respect for the late great movie star.
Do you have some art that you practise or do you X-train or do you practise in some sort of lee/Inosanto based academy...?

I don't try decide what and who can call them selfs taekwondo but the deal with taekwondo is that it was made to bring all Kwans together. As from the very begining taekwondo has had it goal in unity. I consider ITF to be taekwon-do because Choi Hong-He was the inventor of the name taekwondo and that he departed in so early of the begining. He too had an indea of pure Korean MA like all the other masters who was involved with the unification.
To call some ripoff a taekwondo would just be wrong in my opinion. 
In bignicks case I some what understund why they call the art they are practising taekwondo but what I don't understund is why they don't do taeguks if they want to realy be taekwondo and to do taekwondo as it is suposed to do these days.


----------



## Mithios (Mar 31, 2005)

JanneM said:
			
		

> Well. In my oppinion no your not doing taekwondo as it should be done.
> If you want to practise taekwondo as it is and call your selfs taekwondoin why not do the way Kukkiwon has planed taekwondo to be done?
> Palgwe is a fine set of poomsaes but it has been replaced with taeguks by Kukkiwon years and years ago. (Yudanjas I believe you make as they are suposed to be made)
> Do you think that you can really represent kukkiwon if you don't follow their guidelines?
> ...



yes, the Taeguk poomse replaced the Palgue, but the Palgue's were brought back a few years ago( middle to late 90's) They are legal for rank advancement and in W.T.F./U.S.T.U.(USA T.K.D.) poomse competitions etc.


----------



## JanneM (Mar 31, 2005)

Mithios said:
			
		

> yes, the Taeguk poomse replaced the Palgue, but the Palgue's were brought back a few years ago( middle to late 90's) They are legal for rank advancement and in W.T.F./U.S.T.U.(USA T.K.D.) poomse competitions etc.


First I was not talking about local rules of the national member organizations.
Second I was not talking about poomsae competition. Also in Finnish taekwondo federation poomsae competitions allow palgwe poomsae.
Third WTF does not have anything to say about requirements for promotion tests (there was a brief moment in history when WTF granted dan grades but it was years a go and only for some years). Although WTF requires that competitor has Kukkiwon dan grade and to get a Kukkiwon dan grade you must know all the taeguks. If you do not know the taeguk forms and you still have a Kukkiwon diploma. Well _I think_ you should think if you really are the grade it says on the paper.

Disclamer: I do NOT judge anybodys tecnical abilitys nor am I judging the way you practise. I eaven am not judging your grades but never the less I am trying to say if you have diploma from Kukkiwon you should know the Kukkiwon curriculumn

If there is a moderator around. I think we could make this line a new subjekt.


----------



## Jim Tindell (Mar 31, 2005)

I don't know any of the Taeguk forms, and I still have a Kukkiwon certificate.


----------



## TigerWoman (Mar 31, 2005)

JanneM said:
			
		

> If there is a moderator around. I think we could make this line a new subjekt.



Perhaps you might start another thread under this topic as you have realized, it has gotten away from the original topic.  TW


----------



## Marginal (Mar 31, 2005)

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20188

I did him one better.


----------

