# 1st degree/dan black belt teaching??



## Will_Christian (Jan 20, 2017)

Ok, so I was working out when i saw some karate students coming down from the upstairs part of the gym. When they came down i noticed their teacher was only a 1st degree blackbelt Is this the certified teaching level for karate? I thought to teach any martial arts you have to be a master, or at a teacher level, or 4th degree or whatever. Not a 1st degree. This just seems kind of sketchy...

I know it changes from one martial art to another. But is this normal? I don't know if i have ever seen a 1st degree/dan teaching.

If you are to lazy to read all that, Whats the certified level to teach a karate class? Does it change from one school to another in karate? is a 1st degree


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 20, 2017)

Will_Christian said:


> Ok, so I was working out when i saw some karate students coming down from the upstairs part of the gym. When they came down i noticed their teacher was only a 1st degree blackbelt Is this the certified teaching level for karate? I thought to teach any martial arts you have to be a master, or at a teacher level, or 4th degree or whatever. Not a 1st degree. This just seems kind of sketchy...
> 
> I know it changes from one martial art to another. But is this normal? I don't know if i have ever seen a 1st degree/dan teaching.
> 
> If you are to lazy to read all that, Whats the certified level to teach a karate class? Does it change from one school to another in karate? is a 1st degree



The answer is yes. To all your assumptions. 
Different systems have different meanings for "1st Dan."
In some, you can reach that rank in a year. In ours, it'll take 6-8 years.
But in our system (Moo Duk Kwan Taekwondo), 1st Dan is a teaching rank.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 20, 2017)

it varies based on the style/organization. However, if the 1st dan is not from a "mcdojo", or a school that views 1st dan as the beginning, but instead as someone with a level of mastery, i would have no issue with it. Heck, I would be fine learning from a brown belt in some styles.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 20, 2017)

it varies based on the style/organization. However, if the 1st dan is not from a "mcdojo", or a school that views 1st dan as the beginning, but instead as someone with


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 20, 2017)

Chances are he wasn't the head teacher, but my teacher ran schools at 1st degree.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 20, 2017)

Chances are he wasn't the head teacher, but my teacher ran schools at 1st degree.


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## Steve (Jan 20, 2017)

Depends.  A purple or brown could certainly run a reputable BJJ school. Not as common as it was 10 years ago, but still not unheard of.


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## Kickboxer101 (Jan 21, 2017)

Who says that was the guy who runs it the main instructor may have just been sick. Anyway a black belt is a black belt to me it doesn't how many stripes you have if you're a black belt you should be competent enough to teach


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## KangTsai (Jan 21, 2017)

Really the only standard I have for being a teacher is knowing something I don't. How qualified by rank he is is up to you.


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## Tez3 (Jan 21, 2017)

My 1st Dan in karate took 9 years from the last of three brown belt gradings we took so yes first Dans are qualified to teach. I've kept my answer short as you may be too lazy to read it all otherwise ( hint, please don't insult the posters here)


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 21, 2017)

Will_Christian said:


> Ok, so I was working out when i saw some karate students coming down from the upstairs part of the gym. When they came down i noticed their teacher was only a 1st degree blackbelt Is this the certified teaching level for karate? I thought to teach any martial arts you have to be a master, or at a teacher level, or 4th degree or whatever. Not a 1st degree. This just seems kind of sketchy...
> 
> I know it changes from one martial art to another. But is this normal? I don't know if i have ever seen a 1st degree/dan teaching.
> 
> If you are to lazy to read all that, Whats the certified level to teach a karate class? Does it change from one school to another in karate? is a 1st degree


Like the style Dirty Dog trains, in most of NGA 1st Dan is a teaching level. They spend a minimum of a year at 1st Kyu (brown belt), including a year of student teaching. I talked to one person whose style started teaching at 5th Dan.

Rank only means what it means within a given school or organization.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 21, 2017)

Steve said:


> Depends.  A purple or brown could certainly run a reputable BJJ school. Not as common as it was 10 years ago, but still not unheard of.


I keep forgetting to use BJJ in these discussions. The ranks in BJJ are used differently than any other art I'm familiar with, and it makes a great example of ranks meaning what they mean within the context. I'd even be happy to learn some basic BJJ from a blue belt, though that's more like learning from a competent student than an instructor, I'd think.


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 21, 2017)

My question is , how do you know he was a shodan?  In some styles there are no markers like stripes on the black belts.  In uechi ryu karate the only markers happen at honorary titles like kiyoshi where you get a gold stripe and that is usually around 7th or 8th dan with 30 years in the style.


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## JR 137 (Jan 21, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> My question is , how do you know he was a shodan?  In some styles there are no markers like stripes on the black belts.  In uechi ryu karate the only markers happen at honorary titles like kiyoshi where you get a gold stripe and that is usually around 7th or 8th dan with 30 years in the style.



The first stripe on a Uechi Ryu black belt is typically at 6th dan (there could be Uechi schools that don't follow this).  Add 5 to however many stripes on the belt.


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## JR 137 (Jan 21, 2017)

Every art is different, every organization within each art is different, and every individual within each organization is different.

I was asking my instructor about this the other day.  In my organization (Seido Juku), 3rd dan is the typical minimum to open your own school.  I haven't seen anyone under 3rd dan listed as a chief instructor of a school.  Permission has been given in the past to people under 3rd dan to open a school under the right conditions- they're a very good student and instructor who's proven they're ready to run n their own school using the Seido Juku name, and there's not a school within a reasonable distance.

3rd dan or any rank above it isn't a guarantee to be able to open your own school either though.  The person has to be approved by our kaicho (head guy).

I worked out with a 1st dan who just opened his own Shotokan school when I was in college.  We was an uchi deschi in Japan under one of the big names in Japan (I can't remember which one).  He was quite good.  Way better than I was in terms of karate ability and teaching ability, and I was a 1st dan too (non-Shotokan).  There were also no other karate schools within a good 45 minute drive.  I'll admit I didn't think he'd be what he was when I saw his ad.  I stopped in and was quite impressed.  I'd have stayed, but it was about 2 months before I graduated and returned home.


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## marques (Jan 21, 2017)

No one needs Dan or any ranking to teach. One needs to meet some requisites in order to use some names or teach within some organisations...

I think in BJJ is quite usual a Brown Belt being the principal teacher (which usually is already a great level). While other disciplines require more Dan or some special courses or something. And (1st) Dan is a very relative level and only means something if you know who gave it.

Everyone can create his own style / name / organisation and give himself as many Dan as he want...


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## marques (Jan 21, 2017)

No one needs Dan or any ranking to teach. One needs to meet some requisites in order to use some names or teach within some organisations...

I think in BJJ is quite usual a Brown Belt being the principal teacher (which usually is already a great level). While other disciplines require more Dan or some special courses or something. And (1st) Dan is a very relative level and only means something if you know who gave it.

Everyone can create his own style / name / organisation and give himself as many Dan as he want...


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## WaterGal (Jan 21, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I keep forgetting to use BJJ in these discussions. The ranks in BJJ are used differently than any other art I'm familiar with, and it makes a great example of ranks meaning what they mean within the context. I'd even be happy to learn some basic BJJ from a blue belt, though that's more like learning from a competent student than an instructor, I'd think.



Yeah, I've started crosstraining in BJJ recently, and the beginners' classes I'm in are taught by a blue belt, though the head instructor at that school has a black belt. My understanding is that blue belt in BJJ is kind of analogous to 1st dan in, say, TKD.


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## WaterGal (Jan 21, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I keep forgetting to use BJJ in these discussions. The ranks in BJJ are used differently than any other art I'm familiar with, and it makes a great example of ranks meaning what they mean within the context. I'd even be happy to learn some basic BJJ from a blue belt, though that's more like learning from a competent student than an instructor, I'd think.



Yeah, I've started crosstraining in BJJ recently, and the beginners' classes I'm in are taught by a blue belt, though the head instructor at that school has a black belt. My understanding is that blue belt in BJJ is kind of analogous to 1st dan in, say, TKD.


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## kuniggety (Jan 21, 2017)

WaterGal said:


> Yeah, I've started crosstraining in BJJ recently, and the beginners' classes I'm in are taught by a blue belt, though the head instructor at that school has a black belt. My understanding is that blue belt in BJJ is kind of analogous to 1st dan in, say, TKD.



It really depends on the BJJ school. I've known people who jump into BJJ and are going 4 or 5 times a week and get the blue in a year. Most working adults go 2 or 3 times a week and it takes them 2 - 3 years. Quick math says your typical blue belt will have between 200-300 mat hrs. I look at it as a lower intermediate degree. Purple is usually close to double that... another 400-600 hrs so someone will have between 600 and 900 when they get purple. I personally view this as upper intermediate - teatering on advanced and should have a wealth of knowledge to share. A blue should have plenty of trick shots to show a noob... I've taught some basic positional moves and attacks as a blue.


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## kuniggety (Jan 21, 2017)

Double post.


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 21, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> The first stripe on a Uechi Ryu black belt is typically at 6th dan (there could be Uechi schools that don't follow this).  Add 5 to however many stripes on the belt.


Hey JR did you/ do you study uechi ryu? If so who did you train under?
And to clarify my post I did use the word "like" as in ...as an example... I used kiyoshi as an example, didn't intend on confusing anyone...yes Renshi is the first gold stripe, and that is commonly given at 6th dan. But my point was that the only marking is for the honorary title not for the actual degree of the black belt.


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## arnisador (Jan 21, 2017)

It varies so widely--I've commonly seen anything from brown belt to 4th dan as the minimum to teach for a given org., with exceptions at both ends. Remy Presas encouraged even complete newbies to spread Modern Arnis after a single weekend seminar, for which one got a beginner's instructional certificate--he was that anxious to have his art spread outside its homeland. My mental image is that a brown belt is an asst. instructor level and that a first degree black belt should be able to open their own school and grant at least some colored belt ranks, but that's just based on me averaging out what I've seen over the years. In many cases you need to have higher dan rank to have your own school.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 21, 2017)

arnisador said:


> It varies so widely--I've commonly seen anything from brown belt to 4th dan as the minimum to teach for a given org., with exceptions at both ends. Remy Presas encouraged even complete newbies to spread Modern Arnis after a single weekend seminar, for which one got a beginner's instructional certificate--he was that anxious to have his art spread outside its homeland. My mental image is that a brown belt is an asst. instructor level and that a first degree black belt should be able to open their own school and grant at least some colored belt ranks, but that's just based on me averaging out what I've seen over the years. In many cases you need to have higher dan rank to have your own school.


That's also my mental image, mostly because that's the common reality within the NGAA.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 21, 2017)

arnisador said:


> It varies so widely--I've commonly seen anything from brown belt to 4th dan as the minimum to teach for a given org., with exceptions at both ends. Remy Presas encouraged even complete newbies to spread Modern Arnis after a single weekend seminar, for which one got a beginner's instructional certificate--he was that anxious to have his art spread outside its homeland. My mental image is that a brown belt is an asst. instructor level and that a first degree black belt should be able to open their own school and grant at least some colored belt ranks, but that's just based on me averaging out what I've seen over the years. In many cases you need to have higher dan rank to have your own school.



That's pretty much how we do it in our org, except it's a red belt instead of brown.

And it's not as if they're on their own. Our 1st Dans teach, but they're still training, as well, and so naturally they have access to higher ranked people to help with any questions.


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## JR 137 (Jan 21, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> Hey JR did you/ do you study uechi ryu? If so who did you train under?
> And to clarify my post I did use the word "like" as in ...as an example... I used kiyoshi as an example, didn't intend on confusing anyone...yes Renshi is the first gold stripe, and that is commonly given at 6th dan. But my point was that the only marking is for the honorary title not for the actual degree of the black belt.



I went to a few open mat nights at a Uechi Ryu school when I was in college.  It was in the Pittsfield, MA area.  I don't remember the CI's name, but he was a good guy.  He was a 7th dan and had 2 stripes on his belt.  The 6th dan under him had 1 stripe.  I didn't know what was going on with it at first, as I'd only seen a stripe for each dan rank in my at-the-time organization.  When I saw their rank certificates on the wall, I figured it out.  None of the other black belts had stripes, as all were lower ranked.  Those two gentlemen were called sensei, not any other title.  I'm assuming they had formal titles, but most Okinawan styles' teachers that I've come across use sensei in day to day stuff, and titles only in formal stuff.

I really liked Uechi and that school, but they were about an hour away, and my class schedule made it impossible to train there consistently.  They were great and allowed me to drop in during open mat any time.  I went several times.  I gave them some money, but I don't remember them ever asking for it.  

Sorry if my previous post and/or this one came off matter of factly.  I was just trying to clarify what I've seen (at that dojo and elsewhere online/books/etc).


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 22, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> I went to a few open mat nights at a Uechi Ryu school when I was in college.  It was in the Pittsfield, MA area.  I don't remember the CI's name, but he was a good guy.  He was a 7th dan and had 2 stripes on his belt.  The 6th dan under him had 1 stripe.  I didn't know what was going on with it at first, as I'd only seen a stripe for each dan rank in my at-the-time organization.  When I saw their rank certificates on the wall, I figured it out.  None of the other black belts had stripes, as all were lower ranked.  Those two gentlemen were called sensei, not any other title.  I'm assuming they had formal titles, but most Okinawan styles' teachers that I've come across use sensei in day to day stuff, and titles only in formal stuff.
> 
> I really liked Uechi and that school, but they were about an hour away, and my class schedule made it impossible to train there consistently.  They were great and allowed me to drop in during open mat any time.  I went several times.  I gave them some money, but I don't remember them ever asking for it.
> 
> Sorry if my previous post and/or this one came off matter of factly.  I was just trying to clarify what I've seen (at that dojo and elsewhere online/books/etc).


Sounds like it could have been Mark Flynn. He also teaches Damian Mia BJJ.  I have been thinking of paying them a visit myself. Never met him to my knowledge. But seems like a great place from the Web sight.


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## gerardbu07059 (Jan 22, 2017)

The importance of 1st 2nd Dan etc to you would be how long will you planing to study the art since at some point  you will catch up. I study hapkido under a 9th degree grand master and I am testing for my third Dan soon. We can always learn from a more experience or advanced individual but how long will you do it for?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## JR 137 (Jan 22, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> Sounds like it could have been Mark Flynn. He also teaches Damian Mia BJJ.  I have been thinking of paying them a visit myself. Never met him to my knowledge. But seems like a great place from the Web sight.



I think it was Mark Flynn, but don't hold me to that.  It was winter/spring '99.  Very classy guy and sure knew his stuff.  My favorite part was doing Sanchin kata with them.  We took our gi tops off, and they "checked" our posture- nudging, pushing, etc. right from the start.  That lead to Sanchin conditioning.  I didn't get to do the jars, but I saw others using them.  Very old school.  You wouldn't know it by looking at them, but his students were tough as nails.  And good people too.  Not trying to steal a line from Fight Quest, but they were the type that would knock your teeth out, then sit you down and serve you tea.

If it's an old dojo (been around for a long time), then it's Flynn's dojo.  If you're somewhat local or will be in the area, pay them a visit.  I've seen a ton of crap and egos in MA, and none of it was in his dojo.


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## JP3 (Jan 22, 2017)

I'm happy to learn from anyone who knows more than I do about what they're showing/teaching me.  Sempai-Kohai relationship.  The act of trying to teach someone something you are trying to understand yourself is in itself an instructional action.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 22, 2017)

JP3 said:


> I'm happy to learn from anyone who knows more than I do about what they're showing/teaching me.  Sempai-Kohai relationship.  The act of trying to teach someone something you are trying to understand yourself is in itself an instructional action.


As to that last point, I have seen many times that people who start teaching often suddenly become much better technicians, and sometimes better fighters.


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## JP3 (Jan 22, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> As to that last point, I have seen many times that people who start teaching often suddenly become much better technicians, and sometimes better fighters.



One of my judo coaches, a guy who is now... I think Bob is 55 now, has been consistently playing judo since he was 10. In school, he obtained a physical education masters. He's got an excellent job, every day he goes to the elementary school and teaches kindergarten to 2nd grade P.E.

Talk about a low-stress career. Anyway, he's one of the best judo seminar teaching clinicians I've ever been around.

   I'm not at all surprised that you observed that, Jerry, as Bob was once, after a weekend seminar and a few of us were relaxing over beers and Mexican food, about how different areas of the brain are activated with different learning... methods. Watch a thing, occipital and frontal lobe; listen to a thing, frontal and temporal. Do a thing, and frontal and cerebellar centers firing.

   Convert practice yourself into trying to explain a thing to someone else, and different areas of the frontal lobe are firing, as you are attempting to convert what you have thought and felt into words to explain, which leads to a different level of learning and understanding.

   It's a really neat thing that pretty much anyone who has been asked this question, "How did you do that to me?" can answer... then feel.  Sometimes it just flows out, sometimes there is a challenge as to how to phrase your concept of what just happened into words the other person can understand.  Teaching is learning, too.  

   But, I'd be hesitant to go to a school, even though I personally started one by necessity as there was no other option if I wanted to continue to go to class, and learn only from a 1st Dan.  But, as with my own experience, if that's the only option, due to location, or finances, it's WAY better than no training at all.


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## KenpoMaster805 (Jan 22, 2017)

When your a black belt your Intitle to teach no matter what we have a black belt his only 15 and he teach adult and kids class its a great thing we even have a black belt who are assistant instructor and I started helping when i was on orange going on Purple and I got my swat patch 2015 at blue belt know im a 3rd degree brown and still helping and i can help teach the adult white to green so it doesnt really matter what belt you are if you can teach then go ahead teach theres even this young girl she just got her jr black aka adult blue belt know shes a assitant instructor so ya you can even teach at purple belt if you know your stuff


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 22, 2017)

JP3 said:


> One of my judo coaches, a guy who is now... I think Bob is 55 now, has been consistently playing judo since he was 10. In school, he obtained a physical education masters. He's got an excellent job, every day he goes to the elementary school and teaches kindergarten to 2nd grade P.E.
> 
> Talk about a low-stress career. Anyway, he's one of the best judo seminar teaching clinicians I've ever been around.
> 
> ...


Agreed, all but the last paragraph. If it's a 1st dan in BJJ, that's a whole different matter than 1st dan in other styles. I'd be happy to learn a bit from anyone. If I'm going to study under someone I want someone with fairly extensive experience. Their rank will only be useful if I know the ranks in their organization. Even then, there can be a huge difference in experience. I dawdled at progressing through student ranks, so it took me about 15 years to get my instructor certification (at 1st dan). Others got theirs in 7-10. The best indicator, IMO, is the ability of their students.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 22, 2017)

KenpoMaster805 said:


> When your a black belt your Intitle to teach no matter what we have a black belt his only 15 and he teach adult and kids class its a great thing we even have a black belt who are assistant instructor and I started helping when i was on orange going on Purple and I got my swat patch 2015 at blue belt know im a 3rd degree brown and still helping and i can help teach the adult white to green so it doesnt really matter what belt you are if you can teach then go ahead teach theres even this young girl she just got her jr black aka adult blue belt know shes a assitant instructor so ya you can even teach at purple belt if you know your stuff


Hey, if you can add some punctuation to your posts, they'll be a bit easier to read.


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## arnisador (Jan 24, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> I went to a few open mat nights at a Uechi Ryu school when I was in college.  It was in the Pittsfield, MA area.



I studied it in grad. school in the late 80s in Prov., RI. Charles Earle was the instructor. Fascinating system. I would've liked to have continued, but it seemed at the time as though if you weren't in New England then you were out of luck on this art. 

It goes a bit to the difference in when you can teach--the Filipino arts are relatively easy to train with a partner with occasional supervision and instruction, and that's how I learned arnis, but you can't really do Karate on your own before you've really studied it for a long time. I miss iaido too--graduated college, moved away, no nearby instructor, too detailed and specific for me to really continue on my own, even as (the equivalent of) a brown belt in the style.


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## Spinedoc (Jan 24, 2017)

As others have said, it depends on the art and the organization, and the school's needs. In Aikikai Aikido, 1st dan is a teaching level. Of course, it takes at minimum 6-7 years in USAF to reach shodan, and for most people it's closer to 10-12 years.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 24, 2017)

I posted this in another thread, it seems relevant here as well.

Martial arts are actually a cultural folk tradition.  Historically, a lot of this stuff was taught from one village member to another, from elders to juniors within a society, from parents and grandparents to children and grand children, etc.

The realities of that era and place meant that these fighting skills were valuable and important as a way to survive threats that may come your way from time to time, or threats to the village on a larger scale.

So people taught what they knew, even if it wasn't much or they werent the best at it.  Because if your son or daughter needs the skills and there is no one else to teach it, you did the best you could.

So there is nothing to say that, as a cultural folk tradition, which it could still be, someone who isn't even all that good could be doing some teaching. no matter what your skill may be, high or low, nobody can tell you that you cannot teach your own children, or your nephews and nieces, or grandkids, or the neighbor's kids...


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## JR 137 (Jan 24, 2017)

arnisador said:


> I studied it in grad. school in the late 80s in Prov., RI. Charles Earle was the instructor. Fascinating system. I would've liked to have continued, but it seemed at the time as though if you weren't in New England then you were out of luck on this art.
> 
> It goes a bit to the difference in when you can teach--the Filipino arts are relatively easy to train with a partner with occasional supervision and instruction, and that's how I learned arnis, but you can't really do Karate on your own before you've really studied it for a long time. I miss iaido too--graduated college, moved away, no nearby instructor, too detailed and specific for me to really continue on my own, even as (the equivalent of) a brown belt in the style.



Uechi isn't an easy art to find.  I remember the first class I took with those guys...

Coming from Kyokushin, everything was different.  We warmed up and went into kihon.  They held their hands semi-open, and the blocks felt really odd.  Kyokushin keeps their hands closed, and all blocks are huge and exaggerated, relatively speaking.  Everything was done in Sanchin stance. I felt "what the hell are these people on?  This is absurd."  But I grinned and tried to keep an open mind.

The we did Sanchin.  Again, "what the hell is this?  This isn't Sanchin!"  After walking me through it, the gi top came off.  What?  Then they started "checking" me - a nudge here, a push there, a slap to the hands and arms.  That's when everything clicked.  I did well enough to have them lightly hit me.  They taught me to coordinate my breathing and posture with being hit.  That's when I fell in love with it.  The only way I did Sanchin previously was as tightly as possible and breathing very loudly.  No one ever "checked" my anything during it.


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## Ironbear24 (Jan 24, 2017)

Will_Christian said:


> I thought to teach any martial arts you have to be a master, or at a teacher level, or 4th degree or whatever. Not a 1st degree. This just seems kind of sketchy



No. There really is no "karate police" out there and just about anyone can legally teach a martial art. This is why it is very important to research the person's history and take those trail lessons very seriously.


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## JP3 (Jan 25, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Agreed, all but the last paragraph. If it's a 1st dan in BJJ, that's a whole different matter than 1st dan in other styles. I'd be happy to learn a bit from anyone. If I'm going to study under someone I want someone with fairly extensive experience. Their rank will only be useful if I know the ranks in their organization. Even then, there can be a huge difference in experience. I dawdled at progressing through student ranks, so it took me about 15 years to get my instructor certification (at 1st dan). Others got theirs in 7-10. The best indicator, IMO, is the ability of their students.



I'll grant you that, Jerry. BJJ is the outlier in that bit of statistical analysis.

I would change it up, and say something like, "If they know more than I do about what they're trying to show me, or even if they don't but have a different viewpoint, I'm willing to listen."

You never know who is going to receive the "Teaching moment." Might be you, might be them... might be both of you.

Those BJJ dudes are P.R.O.U.D. of that 1st Dan, and rightly so.  BJJ people, chime in on this. I was rolling at a BJJ place for a few months about 10 years ago, working on my judo naewaza (I kin speak sum Japneez, eh!), and one of the guys who was a ... purple belt? I sthat the one they typically put just before brown belt?  I can't keep all the arts color belt grades straight, sorry.  Anyway, he said he needed to go to a tournament, and roll against some brown belts in a tournament, and if he was able to win, or even hold his own agains tthem, then he would become eligble for promotion.  I didn't ask him anything else, as it was time to switch partners.  I've no clue if this was the Only way to promotion, or one way, or one association's or instructor's way...  Anyone have a clear answer?


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## JP3 (Jan 25, 2017)

Spinedoc said:


> As others have said, it depends on the art and the organization, and the school's needs. In Aikikai Aikido, 1st dan is a teaching level. Of course, it takes at minimum 6-7 years in USAF to reach shodan, and for most people it's closer to 10-12 years.



Average time for 1st dan is 10-12 years... whew! That is a good illustration of what the different ranks "mean" to the art being practiced.  Honestly, knowing the local aikikai folks here in Houston, I'd say the rankings here are either easier.... or they are way better, as they're done in the 6-8 year category (yes I'm just poking).

Tomiki aikido is based on the judo ranking structure, but where the judo curriculum is the gokyu-no-waza (40) techniques, or the shiny new USJA 67 techniques I think it is, I can never remember that one, a strange artifact of this judo rank philosophy is that in Tomiki aikido, we progress really dern quick to shodan. Average is 2, 3 years.  Of course, all this means is that you know the basic techniques, know what the principles "are," even if you don't really undertand what they "mean" and "why" they are there.... so you get to this basic level of understanding and then rank progression slows Waaayyyy down.  It is not uncommon to fin a tomiki class with 2 or 3 color belts, 6 or 8 black belts and 1 to 3 candy-striper belts indicating rokudan or above.  Like I said, an artifact.

A good way to figure out what level of skill someone has, though not really infallible, is "How long you been doing that?"

Someone says, "I've been in judo 15 years," you get the idea. Swap in different martial art name, and you get the same idea. That would be, they probably know their stuff.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jan 25, 2017)

JP3 said:


> I'll grant you that, Jerry. BJJ is the outlier in that bit of statistical analysis.
> 
> ...
> 
> Those BJJ dudes are P.R.O.U.D. of that 1st Dan, and rightly so.  BJJ people, chime in on this. I was rolling at a BJJ place for a few months about 10 years ago, working on my judo naewaza (I kin speak sum Japneez, eh!), and one of the guys who was a ... purple belt? I sthat the one they typically put just before brown belt?  I can't keep all the arts color belt grades straight, sorry.  Anyway, he said he needed to go to a tournament, and roll against some brown belts in a tournament, and if he was able to win, or even hold his own agains tthem, then he would become eligble for promotion.  I didn't ask him anything else, as it was time to switch partners.  I've no clue if this was the Only way to promotion, or one way, or one association's or instructor's way...  Anyone have a clear answer?



Actually most BJJ tournaments have divisions based on belt level, so typically a purple belt wouldn't be up against brown belts (except in no-gi, where they would be lumped together in the advanced division.) More likely the requirement was for him to medal in the purple belt division and hang with the brown belts when rolling at the academy. That's one approach to promotions. It's not universal, but it's not uncommon either.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 25, 2017)

JP3 said:


> Average time for 1st dan is 10-12 years... whew! That is a good illustration of what the different ranks "mean" to the art being practiced.  Honestly, knowing the local aikikai folks here in Houston, I'd say the rankings here are either easier.... or they are way better, as they're done in the 6-8 year category (yes I'm just poking).
> 
> Tomiki aikido is based on the judo ranking structure, but where the judo curriculum is the gokyu-no-waza (40) techniques, or the shiny new USJA 67 techniques I think it is, I can never remember that one, a strange artifact of this judo rank philosophy is that in Tomiki aikido, we progress really dern quick to shodan. Average is 2, 3 years.  Of course, all this means is that you know the basic techniques, know what the principles "are," even if you don't really undertand what they "mean" and "why" they are there.... so you get to this basic level of understanding and then rank progression slows Waaayyyy down.  It is not uncommon to fin a tomiki class with 2 or 3 color belts, 6 or 8 black belts and 1 to 3 candy-striper belts indicating rokudan or above.  Like I said, an artifact.
> 
> ...


I'd agree that time-in-training is a better measure between styles (and even associations) than the color of their belt. In the NGAA, one could technically reach shodan in 3 years. I know of only one case where this happened, and both he and his instructor said afterward it was too soon. Most take at least twice that. I've had instructors who looked down on styles that awarded a black belt in a couple of years. I've come to an understanding that they just have a different approach. It's all good, and most folks who have understanding come back to the time-in-training question eventually.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 25, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Actually most BJJ tournaments have divisions based on belt level, so typically a purple belt wouldn't be up against brown belts (except in no-gi, where they would be lumped together in the advanced division.) More likely the requirement was for him to medal in the purple belt division and hang with the brown belts when rolling at the academy. That's one approach to promotions. It's not universal, but it's not uncommon either.


I like that approach, actually. If I had enough students, that would be my requirement for promotion to brown, at least.


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## JP3 (Jan 26, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Actually most BJJ tournaments have divisions based on belt level, so typically a purple belt wouldn't be up against brown belts (except in no-gi, where they would be lumped together in the advanced division.) More likely the requirement was for him to medal in the purple belt division and hang with the brown belts when rolling at the academy. That's one approach to promotions. It's not universal, but it's not uncommon either.


Tony, I had thought that myself, but his impression was certainly that he was expected to roll "up rank" at the tournament, and at least do well, perhaps not win, to get his next promo.  I've no idea, I didn't go with him.

It was Naga, I think in Dallas-Ft. Worth? Like I said, I didn't go.

NAGA Submission Grappling, BJJ Tournaments & Reality Fighting - NagaFighter.com

Maybe my answer is in there, that link above.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jan 26, 2017)

JP3 said:


> Tony, I had thought that myself, but his impression was certainly that he was expected to roll "up rank" at the tournament, and at least do well, perhaps not win, to get his next promo.  I've no idea, I didn't go with him.
> 
> It was Naga, I think in Dallas-Ft. Worth? Like I said, I didn't go.
> 
> ...


NAGA does have no-gi divisions, with purple, brown, and black belts (or their equivalent for anyone coming from other arts) all lumped together in the advanced division, so maybe he was planning to compete no-gi.


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## Buka (Jan 27, 2017)

Will_Christian said:


> Ok, so I was working out when i saw some karate students coming down from the upstairs part of the gym. When they came down i noticed their teacher was only a 1st degree blackbelt Is this the certified teaching level for karate? I thought to teach any martial arts you have to be a master, or at a teacher level, or 4th degree or whatever. Not a 1st degree. This just seems kind of sketchy...



I'm a white belt in BJJ, but I've been teaching grappling for years.

I love being sketchy. (great word)


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## JP3 (Jan 27, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> NAGA does have no-gi divisions, with purple, brown, and black belts (or their equivalent for anyone coming from other arts) all lumped together in the advanced division, so maybe he was planning to compete no-gi.



Yep, that's his thing. So, maybe that's it and the instructor uses how he does as part of the informal demo process?


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## Tony Dismukes (Jan 27, 2017)

JP3 said:


> Yep, that's his thing. So, maybe that's it and the instructor uses how he does as part of the informal demo process?


Sounds likely. Like I said, that's not a universal approach, but it's not terribly uncommon either.


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## ballen0351 (Jan 27, 2017)

So how does one know what rank someone else is just by seeing them walk down the stairs?


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 27, 2017)

ballen0351 said:


> So how does one know what rank someone else is just by seeing them walk down the stairs?


In many styles, you can count the stripes on their belt.


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## ballen0351 (Jan 27, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> In many styles, you can count the stripes on their belt.


yes and in many they don't so just seeing someone on the stairs means nothing


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 27, 2017)

ballen0351 said:


> yes and in many they don't so just seeing someone on the stairs means nothing


If they have stripes, that usually works. Of course, if they don't, you can't count them. There are a few (one noted in this thread) that produce a false reading because they start stripes later, but I've literally never run into them yet. All I've met in uniform either had no clear symbol, or their stripes matched dan grading.


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## ballen0351 (Jan 27, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> If they have stripes, that usually works. Of course, if they don't, you can't count them. There are a few (one noted in this thread) that produce a false reading because they start stripes later, but I've literally never run into them yet. All I've met in uniform either had no clear symbol, or their stripes matched dan grading.


So back to my point How did the OP know what rank this instructor was by seeing him on the stairs.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 27, 2017)

ballen0351 said:


> So back to my point How did the OP know what rank this instructor was by seeing him on the stairs.


If he had a single stripe on a black belt, 1st dan is a reasonable read.


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## ballen0351 (Jan 27, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> If he had a single stripe on a black belt, 1st dan is a reasonable read.


Except he didn't say that........ which is why I am asking.


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## JP3 (Jan 28, 2017)

ballen0351 said:


> So how does one know what rank someone else is just by seeing them walk down the stairs?



By knowing and recognizing them. That's how I do it.

Paul walks down the stairs.
I say, "Hey, Paul. How are you?" And I know that Paul's a shodan because I've known him for a few years. Personally, that's how I do it.

I don't know how the O/P did it, as it didn't seem like they knew each other.


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## JP3 (Jan 28, 2017)

It may be that the O/P just didn't think to put how they knew the rank, because, obviously, since they knew the rank was shodan, certainly everyone would assume that to be correct?  Heck, he could have just asked him/her after class, right?


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## mgotangsoodo (Apr 2, 2017)

Most schools I've seen in my style, So Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan, are operated by a third Dan or higher. They need permission from their instructors and usually a certification as Kyo Sa from the region the are in. The Kyo Sa cert can be obtained at second Dan and it's required predecessor, Jo Kyo, can be obtained at first Dan so it wouldn't be out of the question for a first or second Dan to run their own school or rec center program under the close guidance of their own instructors. Either way I would expect someone not a fourth Dan or higher (master) running their own program to have a regional/national cert (Jo Kyo, Kyo Sa, Sa Bom) and be at least second Dan. Now, any Dan ranks is eligible to teach a significant portion of a class in general so you will certainly see this happen a lot. Usually the leas instructor will give the jr Dan a lesson and a group of students and periodically check in on them (or not at all depending on level, age, experience)


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## DanT (Apr 2, 2017)

I know some 1st dans that would destroy self appointed 10th dans. So no it doesn't matter.


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## PhotonGuy (Apr 2, 2017)

Will_Christian said:


> Ok, so I was working out when i saw some karate students coming down from the upstairs part of the gym. When they came down i noticed their teacher was only a 1st degree blackbelt Is this the certified teaching level for karate? I thought to teach any martial arts you have to be a master, or at a teacher level, or 4th degree or whatever. Not a 1st degree. This just seems kind of sketchy...
> 
> I know it changes from one martial art to another. But is this normal? I don't know if i have ever seen a 1st degree/dan teaching.
> 
> If you are to lazy to read all that, Whats the certified level to teach a karate class? Does it change from one school to another in karate? is a 1st degree



That depends. Each dojo has their own criteria for who can teach. Also, there are different requirements to be the one who leads the class vs being an assistant instructor. When I was a brown belt I did some assistant teaching.


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## JR 137 (Apr 2, 2017)

DanT said:


> I know some 1st dans that would destroy self appointed 10th dans. So no it doesn't matter.



I know some people who've never stepped into a dojo that would do the same.

Rank doesn't make a MAist; the MAist makes the rank.


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## Martial_Kumite (Apr 3, 2017)

When I was testing for my E Dan, we had seminars and demonstrations before the belt ceremony. It was a way to destress after the hours of testing we completed. During this my head instructor comes up to the front to give a little history lesson and began naming every master in order by rank. At the end of it, he mentioned how one of the master's sister (forgive me I can not remember the names) had to postpone her masters to go across seas ( I believe she was a doctor, or trying to be one). She would have been senior to her brother. My instructor said, " Do not judge someone by their rank, because they can be any times your senior."

So really, time is the greatest tell.


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## Aaron Lawson (Nov 20, 2019)

I'm a 20 year old 1st dan black belt with eleven years of experience in okinawan goju ryu a state sparring and kata championship as well as southeast National through the AKA. I studied with my sensei right up until the week I shipped off to basic training. I would never open a school for money however a few of the guys in my unit would like to learn to perform better at combatives. Is there anyone who thinks it would be dishonest of me to teach them what I know?


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## Flying Crane (Nov 20, 2019)

Aaron Lawson said:


> I'm a 20 year old 1st dan black belt with eleven years of experience in okinawan goju ryu a state sparring and kata championship as well as southeast National through the AKA. I studied with my sensei right up until the week I shipped off to basic training. I would never open a school for money however a few of the guys in my unit would like to learn to perform better at combatives. Is there anyone who thinks it would be dishonest of me to teach them what I know?


Not at all.  If you are honest with them about your training history, and they trust you to teach what you know and are on board with it, then how could anyone be upset about that?


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## Buka (Nov 20, 2019)

Aaron Lawson said:


> I'm a 20 year old 1st dan black belt with eleven years of experience in okinawan goju ryu a state sparring and kata championship as well as southeast National through the AKA. I studied with my sensei right up until the week I shipped off to basic training. I would never open a school for money however a few of the guys in my unit would like to learn to perform better at combatives. Is there anyone who thinks it would be dishonest of me to teach them what I know?



Welcome to Martial Talk, Aaron, and thank you for your service.

I think it's great you'll be helping your guys. Stay safe, bro.


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## marques (Nov 20, 2019)

Will_Christian said:


> Ok, so I was working out when i saw some karate students coming down from the upstairs part of the gym. When they came down i noticed their teacher was only a 1st degree blackbelt Is this the certified teaching level for karate? I thought to teach any martial arts you have to be a master, or at a teacher level, or 4th degree or whatever. Not a 1st degree. This just seems kind of sketchy...
> 
> I know it changes from one martial art to another. But is this normal? I don't know if i have ever seen a 1st degree/dan teaching.
> 
> If you are to lazy to read all that, Whats the certified level to teach a karate class? Does it change from one school to another in karate? is a 1st degree



Yes, it is ok. As long as they know more than students and skilled to teach, people can learn.

What to say about arts with different standards for black belt or no belts at all? Belt colour is nearly random. No big deal.

Teaching was mandatory _before_ black belt on my style... In BJJ, many start at brown belt, or even before if needed to match demand.

Random.


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## Headhunter (Nov 20, 2019)

marques said:


> Yes, it is ok. As long as they know more than students and skilled to teach, people can learn.
> 
> What to say about arts with different standards for black belt or no belts at all? Belt colour is nearly random. No big deal.
> 
> ...


Lol I think he has his answer nearly 3 years later


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## KenpoMaster805 (Nov 20, 2019)

Welcome to Mt and thank you for your service  you have the right to teach them if you want to


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