# Is BJJ The Most Effective Art For A Woman?



## MJS (Jan 9, 2007)

I'm looking at this from a sexual assault/rape scenario. Considering that BJJ is a grappling art and chances are a male attacker is going to be holding his victim down, do you feel that this art is better suited to aid in her defense? Do you feel that it can stand alone or should there be other aspects covered?

I feel that it would be a big benefit. However, I feel that the focus should be on escape, not trying to get a submission. Now, I'm not saying that if the chance to break an arm presented itself, that it shouldn't be taken, just that the primary goal should be escape. Of course, fighting as hard as possible is important as well. If biting, scratching, punching, pinching or spitting is going to aid in your escape, then I'd say do it!

I also feel that training with a male partner is important. The majority of sexual assaults are most likely going to be done by a male, so it would be best to work with someone larger, stronger, etc. 

Thoughts?

Mike


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## Drac (Jan 9, 2007)

MJS said:


> I'm looking at this from a sexual assault/rape scenario. Considering that BJJ is a grappling art and chances are a male attacker is going to be holding his victim down, do you feel that this art is better suited to aid in her defense? Do you feel that it can stand alone or should there be other aspects covered?


 
There are some devistating kicks that be thrown from the ground that should be focused on...Head butting is also good.. 



			
				MJS said:
			
		

> However, I feel that the focus should be on escape, not trying to get a submission. Now, I'm not saying that if the chance to break an arm presented itself, that it shouldn't be taken, just that the primary goal should be escape.


 
I agree, especially on the breaking..



			
				MJS said:
			
		

> Of course, fighting as hard as possible is important as well. If biting, scratching, punching, pinching or spitting is going to aid in your escape, then I'd say do it!


 
I agree 100%..Biting the lip, nose or cheek..If the arm and hands are free grabbing and twisting certain will put and end to his desire..Don't forget the pressure points..InfaOrbital,Mandibular Angle, etc...etc...





			
				MJS said:
			
		

> I also feel that training with a male partner is important. The majority of sexual assaults are most likely going to be done by a male, so it would be best to work with someone larger, stronger, etc.


 
I agree again..I've worked and Uke'd with dozens of females at seminars and police classes simply because there are still a few instructors that place female with females..They are NOT going to learn much rolling around with another female half their size and weight..


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## Infinite (Jan 9, 2007)

Back in my avid days I taught self defense courses in Ann Arbor. I was also a rape councelor at the time as well so let me add some of my old (OLD I TELL YOU) statistics.

The #1 kind of rape was and probably still is date rape. I started telling women to do exactly what we were discussing which is to disable, harm, injur, blind, anything to get out of the situation. Then I started discussing this with women who had actually been raped in this method.

In this method the shock they have to overcome is pretty sever. They probably know their attacker in in some cases very well. The urge to act at all is hard to come by they just go paralized with shock.

The second most common form of rape is violent assault. Attacker appears from nowhere / follows the target / isolates and pounces. In these cases women are more eager to defend themselves and the violent techniques seem to come right out of them.

The other thing I discovered while doing all this is that most women who come in just for self defense (as apposed to those that practice the art) do not relize defending yourself hurts you too. Simple strikes usually hurt their arm. For example I used to teach a straight palm strike from the back to the face. Women used to do this and say, "Owe it hurts my palm." when they hit the focus mit. 

So I guess my addition too all this is that typically you have a lot of psychological issues to overcome with anyone who just shows up to the self defense class as apposed to taking full feldge arts.

How does BJJ address those limitiations as stated above differently than any other art?


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## The Kidd (Jan 9, 2007)

I would think that is the last place you would want to be as a woman is on the ground, defend, strike and get out of there.


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## Infinite (Jan 9, 2007)

The Kidd said:


> I would think that is the last place you would want to be as a woman is on the ground, defend, strike and get out of there.



Instruction for anyone for self defense.

Rule #1 BE ALERT!!!!!

However they may not see the attacker and secondly notice date rape. It can go from a hug or a cuddle to rape in the blink of an eye.

Besides every Martial artists knows... training for the worse fight for the best.


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## shesulsa (Jan 9, 2007)

I teach some basic groundwork as part of any self-defense seminar I conduct, though it is far from being the only thing we cover.  Since ground fighting is so popular and so widely trained, I think it's important to have a good knowledge of escapes, protection, vital points, etcetera. 

But the best way to win on the ground is to _never let it get there_.  Stand-up is *still* imperative to train.

I'm working on a striking curriculum as a segment in a series ... I don't advocate that women punch anyone but other women and teenagers and even heelpalm strikes when done incorrectly can damage the elbow - so proper and careful instruction in striking must occur.


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## tradrockrat (Jan 9, 2007)

The quick answer is NO - BJJ is not the best.  No single system is.  Self defense is not MA.  It needs to be taught differently and all the psycological / legal / physical / mental aspects need to be addressed.

Ground fighting?  Essential
Stand up? Essential
debilitating, potentially life ending attacks? Essential
Mental prep?  Essential
understanding of the local laws? Essential


Whatever addresses these needs is good, whatever works best for the student is best


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## shesulsa (Jan 9, 2007)

tradrockrat said:


> The quick answer is NO - BJJ is not the best.  No single system is.  Self defense is not MA.  It needs to be taught differently and all the psycological / legal / physical / mental aspects need to be addressed.
> 
> Ground fighting?  Essential
> Stand up? Essential
> ...


:hammer::highfive:artyon::cheers:

Preach, brother, preach!


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## Drac (Jan 9, 2007)

Infinite said:


> Instruction for anyone for self defense.
> 
> Rule #1 BE ALERT!!!!!
> 
> ...


 
Amen!!!


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## Matt_Bernius (Jan 9, 2007)

Infinite said:


> The #1 kind of rape was and probably still is date rape. I started telling women to do exactly what we were discussing which is to disable, harm, injur, blind, anything to get out of the situation. Then I started discussing this with women who had actually been raped in this method.
> 
> In this method the shock they have to overcome is pretty sever. They probably know their attacker in in some cases very well. The urge to act at all is hard to come by they just go paralized with shock.


This is a critical point that's often glossed over by people who haven't done due dilligance. Across the board, at least in the US, you are more likely to be attacked by someone you know rather than a random stranger. As such, you need to get the defender capible of moving past the cognative dissonance and the social norms that are associated with treating people you know.

In general, RBSD programs tend to be the best for doing this in a short amount of time. They are not all created equal. I really like Tonr Blauer's marterial. Note that when we get past the emotional and psycological stages of the conflict, Blauer tends to heavily rely on what would best be categorized as MMA principles.

The best thing that MMA style training offers (and I'll lop BJJ in there, along with Boxing, Judo, and any other MA where there is regular, resisting contact) is constant feedback against physically resisting opponents (a part of the "aliveness" concept). That's critical. People need to be able to rely on simple techniques that they drill the crap out of under progressive resistance.

Which leads to the main problem. As others have stated, most folks are not willing to commit to really learning physical self defense. Those that are are often not committed to practicing it. And while the jury is out on how much practice on really needs, most pragmatists agree that there needs to be some form of regular (or perhaps semi regular practice).

As such, most short term programs are best to focus on the awareness and deescalation parts of self defense.

- Matt


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## Flying Crane (Jan 9, 2007)

Matt_Bernius said:


> Which leads to the main problem. As others have stated, most folks are not willing to commit to really learning physical self defense. Those that are are often not committed to practicing it. And while the jury is out on how much practice on really needs, most pragmatists agree that there needs to be some form of regular (or perhaps semi regular practice).
> 
> - Matt


 
Very, very good point, which is why I don't have much faith in short term "self Defense" courses in general.  Without regular training, skills will be lost and forgotten.  These skills take consistent training to keep sharp, and it really is a committment that needs to be made.


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## bushidomartialarts (Jan 9, 2007)

bjj has many aspects that would be helpful.

trouble is, bjj -- like most of the other sport grappling arts -- rely a little more heavily on serious physical training.  you have to train pretty hard, and be in some really good shape, to use bjj effectively.

most women (i should really say most people, about half of whom are women) aren't going to put in the hours.

there are some far better arts/sciences -- CDT, Krav Maga, EZ Defense (despite its obnoxious monicker), Haganah, for example -- if your goal is simply protecting yourself from rape or other assaults.


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## Kacey (Jan 9, 2007)

tradrockrat said:


> The quick answer is NO - BJJ is not the best.  No single system is.  Self defense is not MA.  It needs to be taught differently and all the psycological / legal / physical / mental aspects need to be addressed.
> 
> Ground fighting?  Essential
> Stand up? Essential
> ...



You beat me to it.  The best art for any person - male or female - is the art the person is mentally, physically, and emotionally willing and able to learn and maintain skills in - because if the person can't do that, it doesn't matter _how_ effective it is; it won't be any good at all if it's not learned and practiced.


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## The Kidd (Jan 9, 2007)

Infinite said:


> Instruction for anyone for self defense.
> 
> Rule #1 BE ALERT!!!!!
> 
> ...


 

I was responding to the original question, is BJJ the best I would say no if you can stay on your feet you are better off, would it be helpful to know some? Of course, in the date rape situation you mention.


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## Infinite (Jan 9, 2007)

The Kidd said:


> I was responding to the original question, is BJJ the best I would say no if you can stay on your feet you are better off, would it be helpful to know some? Of course, in the date rape situation you mention.



Fair enough we all have to make some sort of assumption to answer these types of questions.

--Infy


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## still learning (Jan 9, 2007)

Hello, You may want to look at JUDO?   

For those who do not train in any martial arts...there is still things anyone can do!

Gouge or attack the eyes,  hit/strike or smash at the throat.  Bite.  

Most important ....FIGHT BACK...FIGHT BACK BECAUSE THERE MAY NOT BE ANOTHER DAY TO LIVE!  Always FIGHTBACK!

Read: Gift of Fear and as many books on Rape preventions...be smart, be alert,

MOSTLY:  Trust you instincts...your instrincts are the warning signs for you!

Do not under estimate the art of JUDO...it is more than just throws....still learning and training............Aloha


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## Infinite (Jan 9, 2007)

still learning said:


> Hello, You may want to look at JUDO?
> 
> For those who do not train in any martial arts...there is still things anyone can do!
> 
> ...



Anyone who takes any martial art seriously would never discount any other martial art. I personally am just as scared of a Judo expert as I am of any other martially trained expert 

As for fighting back there are pluses and minuses to that it depends on the situation. For example if the attacker has a weapon like a gun fighting back is not likely in your best interest.


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## Drac (Jan 9, 2007)

still learning said:


> MOSTLY: Trust you instincts...your instrincts are the warning signs for you!


 
Instincts aka "the little voice inside you", the "strange feeling in your gut" ..Male or Female *OBEY THEM...*


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## jks9199 (Jan 9, 2007)

tradrockrat said:


> The quick answer is NO - BJJ is not the best.  No single system is.  Self defense is not MA.  It needs to be taught differently and all the psycological / legal / physical / mental aspects need to be addressed.
> 
> Ground fighting?  Essential
> Stand up? Essential
> ...



Good points.  Too many martial artists think that teaching defensive tactics/self defense is the same as martial arts.  For self defense, keep everything simple, and try to build off of common principles instead of teaching lots of techniques.  It's better to grind a couple of simple things in, while "sneaking" time in on awareness, legal issues, and defensive tools (improvised like keys or car antennas and manufactured like OC) than to teach fantastic techniques that they'll forget by the following Saturday.

To me, the key point in self defense is stopping the initial attack, breaking any holds, and getting the hell out of there.  Cops have to learn to subdue and hold bad guys -- not the ordinary citizen.  As soon as you step beyond that -- you add unnecessary complexity for basic self defense.

However -- I do think time spent working on falling safely is always valuable!  Too many people get hurt when they fall, and all an attacker needs is that momentary vulnerability.


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## jks9199 (Jan 9, 2007)

Infinite said:


> Anyone who takes any martial art seriously would never discount any other martial art. I personally am just as scared of a Judo expert as I am of any other martially trained expert
> 
> As for fighting back there are pluses and minuses to that it depends on the situation. For example if the attacker has a weapon like a gun fighting back is not likely in your best interest.



I disagree.  Keeping to the limited focus on rape, any choice that a woman makes that lets her survive is a good choice -- even if it's submission.  BUT I can't strongly enough urge that the plan should always be to resist 100%.  A rapist is often someone just one push short of becoming a serial killer.  (For a frighteningly accurate view inside the mind of a serial killer, I strongly recommend a book titled *Unfinished Murder*.  It's an account of a Cleveland area serial rapist, and it gives a great insight into why rape is not about sex.  I apologize, I don't recall the author's name.)

And, under NO CIRCUMSTANCES should a woman agree to go somewhere else with an attacker!  This is almost certain to result in a murder, not "merely" (qoutes 'cause there's really nothing "mere" about it!) a rape.


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## Carol (Jan 9, 2007)

My opinion is that it's not the art, its the instructor.

The most effective art for a woman is the one taught by an instructor that is the most effective at encouraging a woman to train regularly.  Plus, the instructor must be experienced and effective at teaching a student to defend against an attacker that taller, larger, and with different physiology.

Excellent points about date rape though.  Worth repeating.


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## Drac (Jan 10, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> And, under NO CIRCUMSTANCES should a woman agree to go somewhere else with an attacker! This is almost certain to result in a murder, not "merely" (qoutes 'cause there's really nothing "mere" about it!) a rape.


 
*YES!!!!* 100 % Correct..Every self-defense instructor,martial arts instructor as well as school teachers and parents should* DRILL* that RULE into the heads of their students.


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## Lisa (Jan 10, 2007)

Drac said:


> Instincts aka "the little voice inside you", the "strange feeling in your gut" ..Male or Female *OBEY THEM...*



I tell my daughters this all the time about almost ever situation or decision they have to make.  "What is your gut telling you?"

That little inner voice could save your life one day.


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## Drac (Jan 10, 2007)

Lisa said:


> That little inner voice could save your life one day.


 
Amen Sister...


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## SFC JeffJ (Jan 10, 2007)

Lisa said:


> That little inner voice could save your life one day.



Of course my little inner voice tells me to kill all of my friends before they kill me.

But seriously, the nails been hit on the head many times.  It's not the particular style that is important, but the quality of instruction and instilling the "I won't be a victim" mindset.  Also the willingness of the attacked to do what is necessary to keep it from happening.  All the high-speed hard core training won't be any help at all if the person who received it isn't willing to do what it takes when the **** hits the fan.

Jeff


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## Drac (Jan 10, 2007)

JeffJ said:


> "I won't be a victim" mindset


 
This should give you all a laugh..One of the many complaints I've recieved while on duty came from a woman whos female friend was touched while riding a city bus.. When I asked her Why she didn't say anything to the bus driver her answer was something to the effect of "We're trained to be quiet"..I asked her "What kind of victims mindset was she being taught??"


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## SFC JeffJ (Jan 10, 2007)

I remember sometime in the past year, when that 12 year old girl escaped from the adbuctor, they had the girl, her family, and John Walsh from Americas Most Wanted on the Today show.  The interviewer, Matt Lauer if I remember correctly, asked if she didn't put herself in more danger by resisting, and Walsh came back saying she did exactly the right thing.  Our culture as of late is breeding victims.  From the schools who will suspend or expell the kid who defends himself as well as the attacker, to all the crap about just giving in to the mugger/rapist/whatever.  We need to do all we can to destroy that attitude.

Jeff


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## SFC JeffJ (Jan 10, 2007)

And now that I've posted that, sorry 'bout going off topic.


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## Drac (Jan 10, 2007)

JeffJ said:


> And now that I've posted that, sorry 'bout going off topic.


 
Lets start a new one on that topic...


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## Infinite (Jan 10, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> I disagree.  Keeping to the limited focus on rape, any choice that a woman makes that lets her survive is a good choice -- even if it's submission.  BUT I can't strongly enough urge that the plan should always be to resist 100%.  A rapist is often someone just one push short of becoming a serial killer.  (For a frighteningly accurate view inside the mind of a serial killer, I strongly recommend a book titled *Unfinished Murder*.  It's an account of a Cleveland area serial rapist, and it gives a great insight into why rape is not about sex.  I apologize, I don't recall the author's name.)



So strangely enough I'm actually en route to be a forensics psychologist. This is my new career choice I'm sort of tired of my current one. So as I have studied this in some great detail I wish to point out a few things.

1) Serial anything is a compulsive disorder and as such predictability can not be maintained. Going with vs not going with being compliant or not compliant really has no effect on the descisions of the attacker to harm or kill the individual.

2) It is quite true that often serial killers use serial rape first and then escalate beyond that to murder. Murder in these cases is often oportunistic the first time and then increases to deliberate.

3) I disagree serial rapists are not one push away from being serial killers. There are two seperate camps but it is often confusing as serial killers will move from rape to murder. There are several serial rapists that have never and probably will never move to murder unless it was for self preservation. I.E. Kill the vitcim so she can't id him. 




jks9199 said:


> And, under NO CIRCUMSTANCES should a woman agree to go somewhere else with an attacker!  This is almost certain to result in a murder, not "merely" (qoutes 'cause there's really nothing "mere" about it!) a rape.



This how ever I will agree with 100%. It also reminds me of the old addage don't yell rape yell fire.


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## Kacey (Jan 10, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> My opinion is that it's not the art, its the instructor.
> 
> The most effective art for a woman is the one taught by an instructor that is the most effective at encouraging a woman to train regularly.  Plus, the instructor must be experienced and effective at teaching a student to defend against an attacker that taller, larger, and with different physiology.
> 
> Excellent points about date rape though.  Worth repeating.



Carol makes the point I was trying to make, and makes it more clearly than I think I did.  The particular art is not important - it is whatever art/instructor causes to you to continue to learn and practice, which, as Carol says, is more often the instructor than anything else, that is the key.  So art "A" teaches something art "B" doesn't.... but if students come to class "B", and stay, and practice, then I think that's a lot more useful in the long run than if they try the perfect art "A" (whatever it might be) and - for whatever reason - don't stay.  The particular art is less important than continued training in _something_ - especially if it covers awareness - than not training in anything, no matter how good.


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## MJS (Jan 10, 2007)

WOW!! Great replies everyone!  My appologies for not responding sooner.  Rather than going back and replying to each post, I'll just make a few general comments.  As I stated in my original post, I was looking at this as an assault type situation.  Sure, in many cases, the female will be standing prior to being brought to the ground, so yes, a solid stand up system should provide her with the tools necessary to fend off an attack.  However, if she is brought to the ground, I think that having some ground skill is going to be important.  Much of the BJJ that we see today is geared more towards the sport aspect, so yes, there is a good chance things are going to have to be modified.


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## jks9199 (Jan 11, 2007)

JeffJ said:


> I remember sometime in the past year, when that 12 year old girl escaped from the adbuctor, they had the girl, her family, and John Walsh from Americas Most Wanted on the Today show. The interviewer, Matt Lauer if I remember correctly, asked if she didn't put herself in more danger by resisting, and Walsh came back saying she did exactly the right thing. Our culture as of late is breeding victims. From the schools who will suspend or expell the kid who defends himself as well as the attacker, to all the crap about just giving in to the mugger/rapist/whatever. We need to do all we can to destroy that attitude.
> 
> Jeff


 
The first "rule" is that if the person survived -- they did the right thing.  Whether that was beating the attacker senseless or submitting to the assault and getting out of there.  There's really no perfect rule for how someone should handle any assault, and that's especially true for sexual assault.   If they got out of it alive -- they did it right.  

But, to me, the best general principle is to always plan to resist!  I'll compare it to the military; it's always the duty of a captured soldier to attempt to escape, as I understand it.  That doesn't necessarily mean jumping into a hail of gunfire...  Sometimes, it's better to wait for a more opportune moment -- but always be looking and prepared to seize that instant.

The whole zero tolerance/punish everybody approach is just, to me, silly.  There's a huge difference between the kid who started the fight, and the one who defended himself -- so long as the extent of the defense is reasonable.  If the "defender" re-initiated the fight, or the harm inflicted in defending himself wasn't reasonable in light of the attack (say, broken bones in response to a shoving match between two guys of roughly equal size), that's a different question.


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## JerryL (Jan 15, 2007)

That's going to depends on the situation.

I'd imagine a date-rape tends to start in what is already an "on your back grappling" position, so an art with a focus there would seem very appropriate. 

Given the best of all scenerios, I'd be looking at an art that focused on identifying your potential assailant and being able to keep weapon's fire in a tight grouping when you shoot him. 

When that fails, and you are up-close without a drawn weapon, I'd rather be standing and using what weapons were at hand. So I'd want an art that covers that as well.

When that fails, you are on the ground defineding. Personally, I still prefer an art that spends some time focusing using a weapon from that position, but I like weapons because of their ability to increase the ability to inflict damage.

I think BJJ would be a good, useful, and obvious choice. I don't think there's a universal "best" without getting far more specific.


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