# Yoshida Clan and Kenpo?



## John Bishop (Sep 7, 2004)

Well, one of the popular theory's now about James Mitose's Kenpo history is a claim that he was a maternal descendant of the Yoshida Clan. 
Being that the Yoshida Clan was a prominate group in Japanese history, it's history is very well documented. So, what martial arts did the Yoshida Clan practice?

"It was during this decade that the position of _Yokozuna_ was established. It was the result of the rivalry between the Yoshida and Gojo clans in their fight to have control over the sumo world. In 1789, Yoshida Oikaze petitioned the authorities _"for the offical recognition of his own power to issue what he called, for the first time, the Yokozuna Menkyo, or Yokozuna _license_."_(Cuyler, 1985, pg 80) 
The first ever ring-entering ceremony to be conducted by a Yokozuna was held at the Fukuyama Hachiman Shrine in 1789 by the grand champion and popular hero of the time, Tanikaze Kajinosuke, which officially established the power of the Yoshida clan in sumo circles. 

And of course:



"Kotaro Yoshida, student of Sokaku Tekeda (Daito Ryu Aiki-Jutsu), founded or inherited the Yoshida family style called "Yanagi Shindare Ryu, which combines several arts but is heavily Daito-Ryu based. He is best-known as being the person who introduced Morehei Uyeshiba, founder of Aikido, to Sakaku Takeda. ( He was heavily involved in the military espionage activities of the Japanese intelligence during WWII though the Dai Nippon Butokukai in Osaka )" 
"Kenjii Yoshida , son of Yoshida Katoro, inherited the Yanagi Shindare Ryu, ( he relocated to North America before the second war, and refused to support the japanese war effort. ) He returned after WWII but was not welcomed by his father who felt betrayed by his son for refusing to support the military effort of his homeland and was banished from Japan.." 

Again we find no (independant of James Mitose)history of Kosho Shorei Ryu Kenpo existing in Japan.


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## BlackCatBonz (Sep 7, 2004)

the plot thickens

shawn


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## GAB (Sep 8, 2004)

Hi John, 
You probably won't find any thing mentioned exactly Kosho Shorei Ryu Ken/mpo.
But as far as the pine tree and other references, I think they might be there.

Robert Trias Mon, was and is about the pine tree. I think the common denominator is pine tree.

It was changed to protect his ancestors if you want to believe it or not? Kelly and I were talking today and there is a lot of information that backs up the fact that he was in Japan so as far as I am concerned that is moot.

Now as far as his Martial art being exactly as we would want it to fit into the puzzle we have made of it,that will not happen.

As Shawn said the plot thickens and gets harder to understand.

Tracy has thrown a few wrench's into the works and so did EP, but those are pretty apparent when dissected, it is much more complex regarding KSRK. 
Regards, Gary


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## The Kai (Sep 8, 2004)

GAB said:
			
		

> Hi John,
> 
> But as far as the pine tree and other references, I think they might be there.
> 
> Robert Trias Mon, was and is about the pine tree. I think the common denominator is pine tree.


The Pine Tree could be a reference to the Shaolin Temple.  Shaolon, Sil-Lum, Shorie, Shorin are all ways of refering to a pine tree.
The legend that I got was that the original temple was located in a grove of pine trees
Todd


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## GAB (Sep 8, 2004)

Hi Todd,
Yes, I have read that also.

Back to the thickening of the plot. It will take time to sort this out, truth is sometimes very difficult.  With the advent of the web and computers, it will become clearer as time goes on and families release information (I hope)...

John has quite a bit and so does Hanshi, I wish they could clear the air,sit down and talk, share. 
Regards, Gary


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## The Kai (Sep 8, 2004)

I agree Mr Bishop and Hanshi Juchnik have done quite a bit with in the arts.


However, I don't get the plot thickens idea as it seems all avenues to tie Mitose into something bigger come to a dead end.  Maybe maybe the plot stays the same and my head thickens?
Todd


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## GAB (Sep 8, 2004)

Hi Todd,
I think that is a good analogy, if I am to take it.  You are getting more knowledge, and coming to the end of the journey, as far as you are concerned.

If you can just understand that this has been going on for several decades and then some, for the main participant Hanshi Bruce, he is with the knowledge and still feels secure enough in his own right to keep the ball rolling.

His 17th Gathering in the name of Mitose will be held at the end of this month 
25th and 26th, in Oregon, pretty impressive. 

Regards, Gary


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## The Kai (Sep 8, 2004)

I have been to the gathering for the past 6 years, and it is a awesome event.  In fact, I am listed as a presenter this year, but due to a untimely divorce i can't swing it!

Todd


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## KenpoDave (Sep 8, 2004)

John Bishop said:
			
		

> Well, one of the popular theory's now about James Mitose's Kenpo history is a claim that he was a maternal descendant of the Yoshida Clan.
> Being that the Yoshida Clan was a prominate group in Japanese history, it's history is very well documented. So, what martial arts did the Yoshida Clan practice?


 


> "Kotaro Yoshida, student of Sokaku Tekeda (Daito Ryu Aiki-Jutsu), founded or inherited the Yoshida family style called "Yanagi Shindare Ryu, which combines several arts but is heavily Daito-Ryu based. He is best-known as being the person who introduced Morehei Uyeshiba, founder of Aikido, to Sakaku Takeda. ( He was heavily involved in the military espionage activities of the Japanese intelligence during WWII though the Dai Nippon Butokukai in Osaka )"
> "Kenjii Yoshida , son of Yoshida Katoro, inherited the Yanagi Shindare Ryu, ( he relocated to North America before the second war, and refused to support the japanese war effort. ) He returned after WWII but was not welcomed by his father who felt betrayed by his son for refusing to support the military effort of his homeland and was banished from Japan.."


 


> Again we find no (independant of James Mitose)history of Kosho Shorei Ryu Kenpo existing in Japan.



Cool.  Thanks for the info.  Again, I submit that Mitose made up the name, and that the art practiced in Japan is NOT called Kosho Ryu.  So, what is the curriculum or Yanagi Shindare Ryu?  Is kenpo a component of the Ryu, and if so, does it resemble the kenpo Mitose taught in Hawaii?


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## KenpoDave (Sep 8, 2004)

John Bishop said:
			
		

> Again we find no (independant of James Mitose)history of Kosho Shorei Ryu Kenpo existing in Japan.



John, I found the site where you copied the info on Yanagi Shindare ryu.  On the lineage page, a few men up from where you copied, I found this...




> Soke Saigo Tanomo ( Chikamasa) 1829-1905, student of Takeda Saomon, and sixth generation of the Emporer Seiwa, although he still called the system Oshiiki Uchi, he was the second generation to use the term Aiki . , He has training in Misoguchi-ryu swordmanship and *Koshu-ryu*, and his resitance of the Meijii government, led to the ritual suicide of hius mother, wife, five daughters and 14 other members of his family who thought he had been killed by the government. , He then served as a Shinto priest, and adopted Shiro Saigo as his son, hoping he would take-over the system, but, Saigo Shiro, joined the fledging art founded by his father-in-law, which became known as Kodokan Judo, ( This led to Saigo Tanomo asking a young fighter by the name of Sokaku to become the next inheritor of this art.)



Now, koshu-ryu and kosho-ryu may not be the same, but I found it a rather odd coincidence.

BTW, for those interested, the site is http://juliancollege.com/lineage.html


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## John Bishop (Sep 8, 2004)

KenpoDave said:
			
		

> John, I found the site where you copied the info on Yanagi Shindare ryu. On the lineage page, a few men up from where you copied, I found this...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## John Bishop (Sep 8, 2004)

Well the link you posted is dead.  So I went to the "Julian College" website and looked for the info you posted.  I couldn't find it, but I'm not the most computer literate person on the web.  
Julian College itself appears to be very questionable.  First time I ever saw a college dean pictured wearing a gi.  But, thats not the worst of it.  It appears that they push home internet learning, and none of their degree programs have been accredited by the Canadian government agency that accredits colleges and universities.  Wonder why?


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## GAB (Sep 8, 2004)

Hi John, I was over to the sanjosekenpo board. Dr. Ted Sumner has posted an article on his board regarding the return of Mitose, (coming back from Japan) I looked at it, you might want to check it out. 

Quite a bit of information in the article. 

Regards, Gary


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## Mekugi (Sep 8, 2004)

Daito ryu cannot technically be traced past Sokaku Takeda, so anything here would be a dead end.

That being said, allow me to give you a look at the "clans" & how they worked within the "military state" as it relates to martial arts. If you belong to clan "A", you could technically be assigned to State "X", to serve people who ran it from clan "B". In a lot of cases, bushi of higher ranks (some called them "samurai") would actually get paid to master various schools of martial arts, especially those within the "state", regardless of the clan. Hence you have people from various fiefs and "clans" learning such things as swordsmanship, spear, swimming in a mixed fashion. Awards would be gold, rice, land, and big silver starts that had "GREAT JOB" on it (oops, sorry, that was at bushi Juku...). Anyway, this is just ONE way that this situation was handled, namely in Kyushu. Those in the middle and upper pats of Japan may have had a different system, but it does seem to represent the ideology of a system.


Regarding Yoshida Oikaze and Yokozuna Menkyo:
This is simply the family who issue the paperwork the Yokozuna. That's it. They were still doing this until recently when the Grand Sumo Organization took the honor over. Now they issue the paperwork, officially. That being said, the "Yoshida" family in this case didn't promote people or have anything to do with the decisions of who became Yokozuna, simply because there is a match system and a committee to do this(which was also set up loosely at that time).


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## KenpoDave (Sep 9, 2004)

John Bishop said:
			
		

> Well the link you posted is dead.  So I went to the "Julian College" website and looked for the info you posted.



John, try typing in http://juliancollege/lineage.html

I couldn't make my link work either, but I did go to the site this morning.

Several of the sections on their are word for word what you posted on the Yoshidas.


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## KenpoDave (Sep 9, 2004)

John, try 

http://juliancollege.com/daito2.html

I couldn't get in from the main Julian College site, but this site is the "main page" for the martial arts.


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## The Kai (Sep 9, 2004)

GAB said:
			
		

> Hi Todd,
> I think that is a good analogy, if I am to take it. You are getting more knowledge, and coming to the end of the journey, as far as you are concerned
> 
> Regards, Gary


Actually I am just getting humor off of this.  But again thank you for your Kindness to acknowledge the state of my journey.   Wanted to believe something so badly do not necassrily make it true
T


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## Brother John (Sep 9, 2004)

This is all very interesting. I've always found it interesting to know more about the origins of the things I'm involved in. 
BUT: from a different point of view, it's a little bit of a benefit to us in American Kenpo that the distant roots of our father art are lost in the mists of time. I've been involved with arts, and familiar with others, that spent a bit too much time and energy in debating 'roots'. In American Kenpo, the proof is in the moment. It's an art "in the now", so to speak. So we generally avoid too much debate and hasle about 'origins'. Oh..these issues exist for us, but at least they generally end at about Chow or Mitose...and no further.

But I do find this discussion interesting.
Regardless of the more ancient roots behind either of these two men, their abilities and the systems that stemmed from them are proof enough of their pedegree as far as I am concerned.

I'm glad we have scholars like yourselves to do the footwork on the history research.
 :asian: 
Your Brother
John


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## John Bishop (Sep 9, 2004)

Thanks Dave: 
That last link did work, but there are several sections to go thru.  I checked the "Lineage" section and found what I think you described.  It talks about their Daito Ryu Aiki Jutsu lineage, and lists a individual named "Tanomo Saigo" 1829-1905.  I see where his bio. says that he trained in "Misoguchi-ryu"  and "Kosho Ryu", but if you read the whole bio. it later refers to the art with a complete name of "Koshu-Ryu Gungaku kenjutsu", which would indicate a sword art, not a kenpo or karate style.


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## Mekugi (Sep 9, 2004)

I thought I would throw out a note here regarding "Saigo Ha Daito Ryu" .

At best, the information and legitimacy are extremely questionable and I would take anything that website expounds with a grain of salt.


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## M.C. Busman (Sep 9, 2004)

John Bishop wrote: "_Julian College itself appears to be very questionable._"

More than that.  In a nutshell, John Williams claims to have learned Daito ryu from a mysterious Chinese feller back in the 1970's.  He doesn't have any documents to prove this man ever existed, and his "lineage" consists of his claim that this man _told_ him he was going to carry on the art.  If you check out the lineage photos on William's homepage, you'll see two very badly manipulated pictures of what might be two Chinese men.  When Daito-ryu started becoming popular, John Williams started calling his jujutsu-type art Saigo-ha Daito-ryu.  

In Orthodox DR circles, Saigo-ha is not considered to be a "clean" lineage.   Williams also makes silly mistakes one would not expect of someone who actually knew anything about Daito-ryu & its history.  F'r instance, he referres to the mainline arts descended from people who learned under Sogaku Takeda "Sogaku-ha", calling those arts by the first name[/i] of their founder (Sogaku). Takeda-ha would refer to the arts of the Takeda family.  

Not the sharpest fool in the shed, eh?

But who are we to tell a self-appointed 10th dan _gunshi_ what is what.  


Have a Super Day,

M.C. Busman


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## KenpoDave (Sep 9, 2004)

John Bishop said:
			
		

> Thanks Dave:
> That last link did work, but there are several sections to go thru.  I checked the "Lineage" section and found what I think you described.  It talks about their Daito Ryu Aiki Jutsu lineage, and lists a individual named "Tanomo Saigo" 1829-1905.  I see where his bio. says that he trained in "Misoguchi-ryu"  and "Kosho Ryu", but if you read the whole bio. it later refers to the art with a complete name of "Koshu-Ryu Gungaku kenjutsu", which would indicate a sword art, not a kenpo or karate style.



Thanks, John, I did not get around to reading all the bios, yet.


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## Karazenpo (Sep 13, 2004)

Hey guys, as I have posted several times before: according to the historian of the Sei Kosho Shorei Kai (Shihan Mike Brown) the Yoshida lineage is the wrong one to trace Mitose. Let me post the  short article I wrote based on Shihan Brown's research.


Great Grandmaster James Masayoshi Mitose

21st Descendant Kosho Ryu Kempo

As many of you know, I have been doing a pretty comprehensive background check on the history of James M. Mitose and his contributions to our Kempo/Kajukenbo systems. I have been trying to be totally objective and I was never, originally, a Mitose detractor. I became disenchanted with the Mitose history when it just wouldn't hold up to scutiny, not in the least bit. In my quest, I have found some answers. Nothing will ever be totally clear and objective when it comes to the history of any martial art but what I am looking for is some factual evidence, some circumstantial evidence, a little logic and a basic framework of the man's legacy that makes sense. I have had my ups and down on it and my investigation is still not complete but here is what I feel is reasonable so far:

Let's start with Jinshi Eison, fact or fiction? Well, yes and no. Don't get me wrong I have a definite answer on that but it has a little explaining. Jinshi Eison lived in just the right time period we are looking at, circa. 1200. He studied in China, his Buddhist name was Kosho Bosatsu. So, it looks legit, right? Wrong. The Kanji used for Kosho in this case did not mean 'old pine tree'. It's like the kanji used for kara in karate. It can mean China (Tang) or empty. Eison's life was extremely well documented and nothing lined up and matched.

However, according to Mitose, Kosho ryu is a sect of Zen Buddhism based on the Rinzai Zen which was introduced into Japan in 1191 by the priest Eisai. Mitose considered Eisai, and for that matter Rinzai (lin chi) and Daruma himself as being his ancestors. This is something he prided himself on. Jinshi Eisan was a misinterpretation of Mitose's words (his English was poor). 1191 was when the religious Rinzai sect (lin chi) Kosho Shorei Ryu was founded. The martial art, Kosho Ryu wasn't developed until about 350 years later, around 1560. The Tracy's begin their lineage (which I will get to shortly) at 1232 AD with Zenko Yoshida. Not only is that the wrong clan but you couldn't possibly have 21 descendants to Mitose in that time period. Martial art ryus weren't developed that early on, those were the religious rinzai sects that started around circa.1200, the martial art came much later. They're about 350 years off!

The Yoshida lineage leads to dead ends and where did Kosho come from? Mitose had three grandfathers. Records provided to Shihan Michael Brown, the Sei Kosho Shorei Kai historian, shows three families from Japan. 1) the Mitose family (his father's side), 2) the Yoshida family (his mother's biological father), and the Kosho family (his mother's biological mother). Mitose's maternal grandparents were not married. His mother was raised by her biological father (Mr. Yoshida) until she was 17 years old, then she was adopted by her biological mother who had married into the Kosho family. Besides the obvious connection with the name Kosho, this was the only grandfather alive when Mitose arrived in Japan in October of 1920.

James Mitose's maternal grandparents were Yoshida Sakuhei (the father of Mitose Kyoka).
Kosho Toju (the mother of Mitose Kiyoka). Mitose's grandmother was not the wife of Mr. Yoshida. Kiyoka was the result of an affair. This is in the family record.

The Tracy Yoshida lineage to Kosho ryu has no merit. They do not go back to the family art of Kosho. Thje Kosho art goes back 21 generations. Mitose's grandfather that he learned the family art from was Kosho Kyohei. This is recorded in the family records although there is no written proof that he trained at the Shaka In Temple as of yet and may never be. There are records there mentioning the term Kosho ryu. A local historian, whom I do not have his name as of this posting, stated martial arts was being practiced there up until just before WW2. The Tracy's are barking up the wrong tree, lineage tree that is! They traced the wrong grandfather, Yoshida Sakuhei. He wasn't even alive when Mitose was 4 years old.

Shaka In temple. Kosho monks and martial arts: truth or fiction? Documents provided and further research to confirm this on the internet into historical records shows that in October of 1588 the warrior monks of Shaka In clashed with the forces of Konishi Yukinaga. The battlefield is perserved to this day.

I gratefully acknowledge the assistance of Shihan Mike Brown, historian of the Sei Kosho Shorei Kai for his tireless and unselfish efforts in researching this' tangled web'. All that I have learned in this post came from Shihan Brown's research and I take no credit for it other than my continuing efforts in a search for the truth on this enigma. Respectfully, Shihan Joe Shuras

Reading all the current posts I'm starting to feel both sides are right and wrong. What I mean is, those who are totally against anything positive Mitose did are wrong but are right on the negative things that have been pretty well proven and those who claim he walked on water are wrong but are right on other issues concerning the positives. Know what I'm trying to say? , lol. Hey, I first believed he went to Japan, then from what I've heard lately, it has been disproven and now, if that document is correct, it seems he did go to Japan but let's not jump the gun like CBS News did with the 'Bush Documents'. Personally, I will stick by the facts presented in his criminal trial, about his ruthlessness, his dark or criminal side but I will stay open minded on Mitose-the martial artist and his claims of lineage. As far as the term Kosho referring to a sword art still makes me wonder if there is also an empty hand version that goes along with it. Very interesting points.


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## Karazenpo (Sep 13, 2004)

Let me clarify as being open minded to his lineage. I still strongly believe his Okinawan karate ties in Hawaii but I now won't rule out he may have had something going on in Japan also.


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## John Bishop (Sep 13, 2004)

The claim is also that Mitose's mother's maiden name was "Komatsu", so where does the "Komatsu" family fit in?


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## Karazenpo (Sep 13, 2004)

John Bishop said:
			
		

> The claim is also that Mitose's mother's maiden name was "Komatsu", so where does the "Komatsu" family fit in?



No idea John but since this information came from the Sei Kosho Shorei Kai, I'm hoping someone from the Juchnik camp will comment.


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## BlackCatBonz (Sep 13, 2004)

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> No idea John but since this information came from the Sei Kosho Shorei Kai, I'm hoping someone from the Juchnik camp will comment.


yeah me too...........this is getting wayyyyyyy interesting

shawn

ps. are any of you guys up for a live chat?


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## GAB (Sep 14, 2004)

Hi all,

It is my understanding that Kamatsu in Japanese, has a similar meaning as the word Kosho does. (it is hiding in plain sight).

What if I was into coded messages, I used a word like dew, I was secretly trying to convey to my friend, that I got married in Vegas. 

Or I just wanted to use a word that was similar but unknown to the English for maybe 20 or 50 years and still being debated.

How about this (40's) Robert Trias meets Mitose, they teach each other forms, you show me one and I will show you one, we will both put them in our school of thought to honor each other.

Mitose observed the Mon of Robert Trias, He sees the Pine Tree figures he will associate that with him because he thinks he will have a foothold in America.

He feels it is fate, (Mitose is elated) because his family name means that, but he does not want to show the family name. So he use's another name to conceal, but still have the same effect as the name of Robert Trias's Art. (still hidden in plain sight).

Now it is your turn (Professor) for new information, all I have seen or heard is the same old stuff, when do you give up some information, what is your agenda? I have told you mine. The truth.
As we go down the lane, I see you have more on your plate, then I do on mine. You are very hungry.

Mekugi can probabley throw some light on this.

Regards, Gary


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## Mekugi (Sep 14, 2004)

I need the kanji. Anybody have the correct kanji on them?



			
				GAB said:
			
		

> Hi all,
> 
> It is my understanding that Kamatsu in Japanese, has a similar meaning as the word Kosho does.
> 
> ...


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## John Bishop (Sep 14, 2004)

Back to the main topic.  
Can anyone provide independant information that supports the premise, that at any time in history, the Yoshida Clan practiced Kosho Ryu Kenpo?  
By independant, I mean information that is not rooted in the theory that Al Tracy has put forth.  In other words, is there supporting evidence for Mr. Tracy's theory?


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## GAB (Sep 14, 2004)

Hi John,

The Idea comes from Al Tracy, I read some more documents on the site of Dr. Sumner. I am sure the way he is displaying this information, more will come.

In the mean time, does anyone have the Kanji for Mekugi?

Regards, Gary


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## Karazenpo (Sep 14, 2004)

GAB said:
			
		

> Hi all,
> 
> It is my understanding that Kamatsu in Japanese, has a similar meaning as the word Kosho does. (it is hiding in plain sight).
> 
> ...



Okay, Gary, ask and you shall receive but first of all let me clear this up. You gave nothing but your theories on the above post, no facts. I posted information supplied to me as fact by the Sei Kosho Shorei Kai historian. No one from the Juchnik camp has commented on it and you danced around it like I never even posted it! I previously gave you information along with John Bishop on Mitose's Okinawan connection and we presented it as FACT! We gave you the name: Nabura Tanamaha and stated he was of the Motobu lineage. Alright, you want more, you've got it! "Junichi Ito-kazu" If the Kosho Shorei Ryu camp has the true facts of James Mitose then I need not explain what I just wrote but would be interested in hearing if any of the Kosho people know! Again: "Junichi Ito-kazu" -Now, Gary, I don't think this is the same old stuff from us, do you? And my agenda, Gary? Just the truth.  PS: Gary, I'm not upset with you at all, just getting into the debate, I think it's getting really good! I have respect for your viewpoints and your position as I do the others of the Kosho group but the only way we can come to the truth is by firing away! lol, as Shawn just posted recently 'it is getting real interesting!' Respectfully, Your Brother Joe


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## Karazenpo (Sep 14, 2004)

Gary wrote:It is my understanding that Kamatsu in Japanese, has a similar meaning as the word Kosho does. 

I say: Guarranteed Tony Kehoe from this forum can answer this. I remember one of the guys in our discussions stated he is a friend of Tony's. Please relay this to him. Thanks.


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## kelly keltner (Sep 14, 2004)

Oh no! not the dreaded "Junichi Ito-kazu" heavens to Betsy my heart's palpatating. Whatever shall I do wherever shall I go.
On a serious note I suppose this is the infamous Mitose alias.

kelly


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## Karazenpo (Sep 14, 2004)

kelly keltner said:
			
		

> Oh no! not the dreaded "Junichi Ito-kazu" heavens to Betsy my heart's palpatating. Whatever shall I do wherever shall I go.
> On a serious note I suppose this is the infamous Mitose alias.
> 
> kelly



Yeah, lol, I was laughing when I posted it because I knew someone would reply like that. It reminded me of something from the Bruce Campell's 'Evil Dead' movies, lol..... but you got it, Mitose's alias. Did you hear that before Kelly or was it a guess?


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## kelly keltner (Sep 14, 2004)

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> Yeah, lol, I was laughing when I posted it because I knew someone would reply like that. It reminded me of something from the Bruce Campell's 'Evil Dead' movies, lol..... but you got it, Mitose's alias. Did you hear that before Kelly or was it a guess?


To be honest Joe it was a guess. I figured considering the way the thread had laid itself out and corolating it with the info from related threads that the alias thing was my best shot.

kelly


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## Karazenpo (Sep 14, 2004)

kelly keltner said:
			
		

> To be honest Joe it was a guess. I figured considering the way the thread had laid itself out and corolating it with the info from related threads that the alias thing was my best shot.
> 
> kelly



Hey Kell, to also be honest, the information I have is that this alias is on his birth certificate, however, a little while ago I viewed the link on M.C. Busman's post about the new documents released on Mitose and it shows a birth certificate with the name Masayoshi Mitose. Then again, after the way CBS News got duped with those phony Bush documents with Dan Rather on 60 Minutes Wednesday night, who knows without seeing the originals?


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## BlackCatBonz (Sep 14, 2004)

i know some may or may not agree with me on this....but, japanese is an esoteric language, westerners might look at it written in english (which, by the way, is only the phonetic pronounciation of these words) and see a word written the same way, but have 2 different meanings. heck, we even have that happen in english. i have seen a lot of arguments on these posts about names written in english translation......and as my japanese language teacher told me.....it means nothing, unless you see where the root of the word comes from. And on another note (and i dont want anyone to take this as a slam against them) i see lots of bad spelling errors of the english translations.....this only creates more confusion. 
As for the Komatsu name, yes it could be read "old pine tree".... (as i do not have a japanese input editor on this PC i cannot give an example)....BUT only if thats the kanji used.
ON another note....relating the names of okinawan kata's or chinese ambassador's that happen to have the same "pronounciation" as kosho are completely irrelevant.....because like i said, some kanji can be pronounced many ways, as i have shown on other posts.
further.....back in the days of the heian, fujiwara, rokuhara, kamakura....ad nauseaum, okinawa and the southern islands of the ryukyu archipeligo were alternately under chinese or japanese rule. The japanese (as i have been told) did not like the okinawans or anything okinawan, and that prejudice remained in tact long after the meiji restoration....which is why "okinawan" arts remain inherently okinawan, and japanese arts the same...... that does not change the fact that japanese and okinawans seemed to love all things chinese, but, the japanese tend to "japanize" everything (much like the romans did).
Also, the japanese martial ryu's (as far as what i have been taught, and what i have read in books) do date back to pre-tokugawa period (which only started in 1600 anyway).
the yamabushi and sohei of the time also had their own esoteric group of teachings which were generally not recorded,but transmitted orally due to the fact that martial studies were restricted to the buke, and punishment usually meant not only your death, but the erasure of your entire family.
So in essence......the fact that a certain martial ryu remained secret is not entirely unplausible.
now before you jump down my throat and tell me how full of "it" i am......read this post again, and really think.......does this sound made up?

respectfully,
shawn


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## GAB (Sep 15, 2004)

Hi Shawn,

I think it makes sense, I even like it, so maybe it does not make sense.:idunno: 

I like what you are saying because that is what I have read and like you say we make mistakes when we write and in can be written again and again (as a mistake) not checked and the next thing you know someone has egg on their face because they did not do the homework.

I believe we have some difficulty with understanding. Just like we have difficulty with typing right all the time, some use a spell check some don't. 

The English believe at this time in the world that our language is the best, I wish we would get a universal language, and start teaching that as a second language and in 50 years it will be universal. 

Like I said at the start of this rambling, you are right on target. 

Gichin Funakoshi, was Okinawan, so was Choki Motobu. Very different styles and different mentality. One was a warrior the other a teacher.

Regards, Gary


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## John Bishop (Sep 15, 2004)

kelly keltner said:
			
		

> Oh no! not the dreaded "Junichi Ito-kazu" heavens to Betsy my heart's palpatating. Whatever shall I do wherever shall I go.
> On a serious note I suppose this is the infamous Mitose alias.
> kelly


Simple solution.  Have someone you know in Hawaii go to the Hawaii State Department of Health, and look up the birth certificates of a "Masayoshi Mitose" and a "Junichi Ito-kazu".  Then tell us which one you find with James Mitose's picture on it. The answer is pretty simple since one does not exist for a "Masayoshi Mitose".
I've seen the "Mitose" birth documents posted on another kenpo website today, and they've been copied and faxed (by Jaime Abregana) to the Hawaii Department of Health.  According to them the documents are not legitimate.  According to them all Hawaii government documents of that time had the "Seal of the Territory of Hawaii" on them.


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## Mekugi (Sep 15, 2004)

I do believe that in their area, "*.* Ha Itto-Ryu" was practiced. I put *.* here because I am not sure of the "flavor" and this is all coming from memory. Hope that helps. 



			
				John Bishop said:
			
		

> Back to the main topic.
> Can anyone provide independant information that supports the premise, that at any time in history, the Yoshida Clan practiced Kosho Ryu Kenpo?
> By independant, I mean information that is not rooted in the theory that Al Tracy has put forth. In other words, is there supporting evidence for Mr. Tracy's theory?


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## Mekugi (Sep 15, 2004)

&#21476;&#26494;&#12288;Komatsu, Kosho or Furumatsu; if the person is exotic or weird, possibly Furusho. Ko is Furui, or "old" as in KOryu &#21476;&#27969;. Matsu, well you all know that. Usually, if you have two kanji side by side in a word or a name, they are usually both Onyomi ("Chinese" pronunciation) or both Kunyomi(Japanese Pronunciation). There are of course exeptions to the rule in names and words.



			
				BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> As for the Komatsu name, yes it could be read "old pine tree".... (as i do not have a japanese input editor on this PC i cannot give an example)....BUT only if thats the kanji used.
> shawn


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## Karazenpo (Sep 15, 2004)

John Bishop said:
			
		

> Simple solution.  Have someone you know in Hawaii go to the Hawaii State Department of Health, and look up the birth certificates of a "Masayoshi Mitose" and a "Junichi Ito-kazu".  Then tell us which one you find with James Mitose's picture on it. The answer is pretty simple since one does not exist for a "Masayoshi Mitose".
> I've seen the "Mitose" birth documents posted on another kenpo website today, and they've been copied and faxed (by Jaime Abregana) to the Hawaii Department of Health.  According to them the documents are not legitimate.  According to them all Hawaii government documents of that time had the "Seal of the Territory of Hawaii" on them.



Good John, like I stated, after what Dan Rather and CBS News tried to pass off as legitimate documents last Wednesday night on 60 Minutes I'm not going to buy it just because someone posts a copy of a copy on a website!


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## GAB (Sep 15, 2004)

John, Due diligence, don't let a leaf go unturned.

Regards, Gary


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## BlackCatBonz (Sep 15, 2004)

hey russ,

just let me know if im totally out to lunch as far as my japanese goes, or my history.

im here to learn like everyone else, and you being immersed in the culture is different from my exposure.

thanks
shawn


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## kelly keltner (Sep 15, 2004)

John Bishop said:
			
		

> Simple solution.  Have someone you know in Hawaii go to the Hawaii State Department of Health, and look up the birth certificates of a "Masayoshi Mitose" and a "Junichi Ito-kazu".  Then tell us which one you find with James Mitose's picture on it. The answer is pretty simple since one does not exist for a "Masayoshi Mitose".
> I've seen the "Mitose" birth documents posted on another kenpo website today, and they've been copied and faxed (by Jaime Abregana) to the Hawaii Department of Health.  According to them the documents are not legitimate.  According to them all Hawaii government documents of that time had the "Seal of the Territory of Hawaii" on them.


 Just a side note did anyone ask the vital records section to cross reference the index and application numbers.

kelly


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## GAB (Sep 15, 2004)

Hi, I saw the news over at San Jose Kenpo, I was reading a couple of posts regarding all the stuff Dr. Sumner is going to put up and has put on his site, then he was saying that everything he has is not the truth, I guess he is devistated, something about the stinking records, we got no sticking records. 

Now that the bubble is bursted and all the stuff he has is for nought, what are we going to do? :idunno: 

Why don't we get a hold of Thomas Mitose and get him into this after all he is the 22nd right. So how come no one is bustin his butt about this? He is with the board of directors of the Kajukenbo organization, is there something here I am missing.

Maybe it is not quite as clear as mud. But we need to find out what the agenda really is.

Kosho gives you information, much from various souls who are involved, Dr. Ted Sumner gives you information, digs into his many hundreds of pages of good stuff, shows them on his web. I have not heard anything at all to disprove. 

How about Thomas who claims to be the head of Kosho. I think it is time he showed his stuff. 
Did I already say this? Yes, numerous times, and no one has said anything about it.
One of the good things that has come out of this is, it is to deep to go away.

John, do we have enough for a search warrant yet? 

I was talking to Kell, who was talking to Mike, who was talking to Hanshi Bruce, who isn't talking. So That is the position we are in. Anyone going to the Gathering? When and where all the information will be disclosed?artyon: 
Can't wait.

Regards, Gary


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## GAB (Sep 15, 2004)

Kelly, 

Did I tell you about the guy I have in Chinatown who can get me those records, Actually he can get me any kind of records, he has a friend in Hawaii who has a friend in Japan who is going to check into it, and will get back to me next week.

He actually has the signature of William Chow on Emperado's Black belt degree. Funny thing it does not match the one on Ed Parkers.:ultracool

Regards, Gary


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## kelly keltner (Sep 16, 2004)

GAB said:
			
		

> Kelly,
> 
> Did I tell you about the guy I have in Chinatown who can get me those records, Actually he can get me any kind of records, he has a friend in Hawaii who has a friend in Japan who is going to check into it, and will get back to me next week.
> 
> ...


 Hey gary I know the same guy. It's the guy that takes care of those thingy's for that other guy who works for you know who, and you know nothing ever happens without you know whose approval, and all his official stuff has his official you know what on it . But to see the you know what you have to talk to that guy we know, but the guy we know is on vacation, so we have to talk to his secretary. I have a cousin who has a friend who is married to a guy who has a brother who is dating the secretary. So I'm pretty confident that we can get an appointment on a tuesday or a thursday three months from now depending on how well you know who's moday night poker game went. If it went bad he'll be you know where the rest of the week trying to recoupe his money.  So I'm certain that I can without a doubt state the facts at hand without you know who's approval. SSHH don't tell anyone


kelly


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## GAB (Sep 16, 2004)

Hi Kell,

You mean to tell me you don't take me serious? I am hurt to the quick! :uhyeah: 

I will picture your face, on the bouncing bag that I will be hitting this morning in the next couple of hours, (since I am old and have no other recourse) maybe I could take a pill.   :mp5:

Mean-while, I have got to find that informant's number in Chinatown. Or was it Hollywood? All these informants and so little time. 

Regards, Gary:asian:


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## kelly keltner (Sep 16, 2004)

GAB said:
			
		

> Hi Kell,
> 
> You mean to tell me you don't take me serious? I am hurt to the quick! :uhyeah:
> 
> ...


I have the number it's in my super secret squirrell handy dandy informant little black phone book. It's in code It'll take me a couple years to decode cause I lost my green lantern decoder ring that John Bishop sent me. 
Go ahead and beat the bag you can even ask if you can use ecrima sticks that your teacher will sell you at a discount (wink,wink). While you're doing that I'm going to call another guy about that other thing we disscussed yesterday to see what kind of price I can get on those you know whats. For who you know who's thing next week. Oh sh** that's also in code.

kell


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## John Bishop (Sep 16, 2004)

Surprising how when some people run out of arguments or information, they stoop to insults and name calling.  You want to play that game, take it to another forum.

I made a simple statement.  Have someone you know and trust in Hawaii (I'm sure SKSK has someone they know and trust in Hawaii) go to the Department of Health's vital records section and just look up the names.  The records are old, but their still on microfilm. And if you find what I said is incorrect, please come back here and correct me.


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## tshadowchaser (Sep 16, 2004)

Good advise Mr. Bishop. Lets hope some one dose just that


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## GAB (Sep 16, 2004)

I have to make an apology, I was just getting goofy, it seems every time someone brings up something good it gets hammered, then the next thing that makes sense, it gets no attention and we go to something else.:idunno: 

I am serious when I ask about Thomas and his connection, the last time I was on his web site I saw a referrel to Terry Lee's Martial Art? Does that make sense?

I have been reading about Gichin Funakoshi, He has some very good information, I am going to start an new thread on it. The remarks are about Kempo so would it be alright to start the thread in the General Kenpo/Kempo area?:idunno: 

Regards, Gary:asian:


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## kelly keltner (Sep 16, 2004)

John Bishop said:
			
		

> Surprising how when some people run out of arguments or information, they stoop to insults and name calling.  You want to play that game, take it to another forum.
> 
> I made a simple statement.  Have someone you know and trust in Hawaii (I'm sure SKSK has someone they know and trust in Hawaii) go to the Department of Health's vital records section and just look up the names.  The records are old, but their still on microfilm. And if you find what I said is incorrect, please come back here and correct me.


 Never mistake having a sense of humor for having no information. Just like you should never mistake silence for a lack of information. I don't see where anyone was called a name. I don't see an overt insult. The only time your name came up was in reference to my greenlantern decoder ring. Which was at worst just a joke. I've decided I like this forum I think I'll stay.


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## kelly keltner (Sep 16, 2004)

One other thing, since your the moderator John, and you have some kind of power and authority. Where were you when I was getting hit with the whole Mitose worship thing on a different thread. Isn't that name calling, at the least insulting. I guess it's ok when it's the other guy getting hammered. This sure isn't Fox news fair and balanced. Those were straight insults. No Jokes no Puns Just insults and you stood Idly by as a Moderator. In fact the only mod that said anything was SEIG if I remember correctly he wasn't even commenting on any of the statements directed towards me. I am speaking directly about the Kosho thread that was locked a few weeks ago.
Yet you stand here now telling people to take it to a different forum for having a sense of humor.

kelly


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## John Bishop (Sep 17, 2004)

kelly keltner said:
			
		

> One other thing, since your the moderator John, and you have some kind of power and authority. Where were you when I was getting hit with the whole Mitose worship thing on a different thread. Isn't that name calling, at the least insulting. I guess it's ok when it's the other guy getting hammered. This sure isn't Fox news fair and balanced. Those were straight insults. No Jokes no Puns Just insults and you stood Idly by as a Moderator. In fact the only mod that said anything was SEIG if I remember correctly he wasn't even commenting on any of the statements directed towards me. I am speaking directly about the Kosho thread that was locked a few weeks ago.
> Yet you stand here now telling people to take it to a different forum for having a sense of humor.
> 
> kelly


Well actually, I'm not "the" moderator.  I'm one of the three moderators for the Kenpo sections.  
I found the thread your talking about.  And yes at the time I had been a moderator for about a week.  You'll notice in the whole 10 pages of that thread, I made one post toward the end.  And at that time I was on vacation out of state for two weeks and wasn't really doing any moderating, and actually very little reading.  I'm positive I did not read the whole 10 page thread, since I was only able to get internet service about 3 days of the two week vacation.  
But rest assured, your not being picked on.  The rules around here apply to everyone, myself included.


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## Goldendragon7 (Sep 17, 2004)

John Bishop said:
			
		

> The rules around here apply to everyone, myself included.


 Yes Mr. Bishop, that is true, (you and I will be held accountable for our actions if we get out of line like anyone else and accept it as well), but I have always known you to be a man of integrity and honesty especially when concerned with our Arts.

 Full Salute,
 :asian:


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## kelly keltner (Sep 17, 2004)

I hear the swampland is cheap in Florida this time of year.

kelly


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## The Kai (Sep 17, 2004)

kelly keltner said:
			
		

> I hear the swampland is cheap in Florida this time of year.
> 
> kelly


And James Mitose was a spy!  And he was protecting secrets. Yea that's the ticket.


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## Karazenpo (Sep 17, 2004)

kelly keltner said:
			
		

> I hear the swampland is cheap in Florida this time of year.
> 
> kelly



Might be a good place to build the Shaka In Temple. (Only having some fun, Kelly.)


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## kelly keltner (Sep 17, 2004)

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> Might be a good place to build the Shaka In Temple. (Only having some fun, Kelly.)


 AH Ha and I bet it's where I left the my handy dandy greenlantern decoder ring. Now if I can just find that nifty little badge I got with my cops and robbers playkit. Only $1.99 in the toy department at Wal-Mart I can play with the big boys.

Kelly


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## GAB (Sep 17, 2004)

Joe, If we built the Shaka In Temple, in the Americas, could we then say this is where the Martial arts we teach or follow originated?

Are there many Pine trees, plum trees or bamboo in Flordia? Rice, we would need plenty of rice.

If not we would have to pass, but thanks for the thought.

Regards, Gary


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## Karazenpo (Sep 18, 2004)

kelly keltner said:
			
		

> AH Ha and I bet it's where I left the my handy dandy greenlantern decoder ring. Now if I can just find that nifty little badge I got with my cops and robbers playkit. Only $1.99 in the toy department at Wal-Mart I can play with the big boys.
> 
> Kelly



Ya kell, we'll let you piss with the big dogs, lol.


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## Karazenpo (Sep 18, 2004)

GAB said:
			
		

> Joe, If we built the Shaka In Temple, in the Americas, could we then say this is where the Martial arts we teach or follow originated?
> 
> Are there many Pine trees, plum trees or bamboo in Flordia? Rice, we would need plenty of rice.
> 
> ...



I don't know about plum and bamboo but we certainly have a lot of pine trees, old ones too, so we can call it the 'old pine tree style' after all!


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