# Who here carries concealed and how?



## CB Jones (Feb 21, 2017)

I carry inside the waistband in the 4-5 o'clock position just above my right rear pocket of my jeans.

Really comfortable position that still allows a "fast" draw but also allows you to conceal your draw as well.


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## Headhunter (Feb 21, 2017)

Not me. To me I wouldn't take the risk carry a weapon and you draw it in a situation someone could take it off you and use it on you


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## CB Jones (Feb 21, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Not me. To me I wouldn't take the risk carry a weapon and you draw it in a situation someone could take it off you and use it on you



Fair enough.

I respect your decision but agree to disagree.


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## Buka (Feb 21, 2017)

I carry it in my pants pocket. It's small, obviously.


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## MI_martialist (Feb 21, 2017)

Never tell...


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## MI_martialist (Feb 21, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Not me. To me I wouldn't take the risk carry a weapon and you draw it in a situation someone could take it off you and use it on you



If you do not carry and cannot draw, someone can use their weapon on you and have the same end result.  Would you rather improve your odds / chances or not?

Always assume the attacker is armed and there are more than 1 of them.


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## Danny T (Feb 21, 2017)

Multiply ways and I dress to the weapon as much as possible. There are times it just plain depends on what I am wearing and why.
Sometimes it depends on what I am doing for most of the day.
I prefer IWB;
I carry appendix 1 o'clock,
I carry 3 o'clock
I carry 5 o'clock
Sometimes ankle.
Every now and then on the left side requiring a cross draw.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 21, 2017)

Buka said:


> I carry it in my pants pocket. It's small, obviously.


It's okay, brother. Some women like it that way.


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## CB Jones (Feb 21, 2017)

Danny T said:


> Multiply ways and I dress to the weapon as much as possible. There are times it just plain depends on what I am wearing and why.
> Sometimes it depends on what I am doing for most of the day.
> I prefer IWB;
> I carry appendix 1 o'clock,
> ...



Just some advice.

Try and carry in the same position.

It will make it more natural to you and when under stress will provide you a better draw.

Also the cross draw is a horrible position.

And the ankle is a good backup position but is impossible to draw from out in the open.

Just some advice.  I got numerous years experience undercover and teach undercover survival to agents.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 21, 2017)

I don't carry anymore - too many places I cannot (air travel, multiple states, and too many places in my home state). When I did, I either carried IWB or (more often) in a snap-on OWB. I actually had a nice holster that could do both. IWB requires a larger waistband, and is more difficult to put on/take off when going someplace you can't carry, so I more often wore OWB. I like blazers and suits, so I often had a jacket to cover the gun.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 21, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Just some advice.
> 
> Try and carry in the same position.
> 
> ...


That's interesting. What about carrying in different positions to fit the need? If I'm only wearing a t-shirt and jeans, ankle might be best carry. Cross-draw (or shoulder) seems the best for in-car carry, where a strong-side holster behind the hip is hard to get to.

I always carried the same place (the aforementioned strong side behind the hip), and just didn't carry when that wasn't workable, so I'm not arguing. Just wondering.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 21, 2017)

Danny T said:


> Multiply ways and I dress to the weapon as much as possible. There are times it just plain depends on what I am wearing and why.
> Sometimes it depends on what I am doing for most of the day.
> I prefer IWB;
> I carry appendix 1 o'clock,
> ...


Are those different positions for different needs, or do you just carry the whole damned gun cabinet with you, Danny?


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## CB Jones (Feb 21, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> That's interesting. What about carrying in different positions to fit the need? If I'm only wearing a t-shirt and jeans, ankle might be best carry. Cross-draw (or shoulder) seems the best for in-car carry, where a strong-side holster behind the hip is hard to get to.
> 
> I always carried the same place (the aforementioned strong side behind the hip), and just didn't carry when that wasn't workable, so I'm not arguing. Just wondering.



 If your clothes don't let you carry how you normally do you are still better off carrying however you can.

But just remember in an extremely stressful situation you are gonna reach where you normally carry it.  If it is in another position it will take you a second to process this and "find" your gun.

Cross draws and shoulder draws are just bad.  It's a longer slower draw and with you arm across your body it is easier for the attacker to push your drawing hand or muzzle into your belly during your draw.


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## Danny T (Feb 21, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Just some advice.
> 
> Try and carry in the same position.
> 
> ...


As I stated, "There are times it just plain depends on what I am wearing and WHY."
Cross draw is excellent in the driver's seat. 5 o'clock is very uncomfortable when seated for extended periods but is great when on the feet for long periods.
Ankle is sometimes the only good position for concealing. Again, what I am wearing. It is hard to conceal with a compression or muscle type shirt


gpseymour said:


> Are those different positions for different needs, or do you just carry the whole damned gun cabinet with you, Danny?


LOL...Situational, situational, situational.
I also practice drawing and presenting from all carries. I do carry 3 o'clock most and 1 o'clock 2nd. Can't always wear a loose fitting shirt, a vest or jacket.


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## Buka (Feb 22, 2017)

I agree with what you are wearing can determine where you want to carry. I also agree with always carrying in the same place.

But guys that train the Arts, train with firearms, especially on a professional level, and frequently carry them, have more tactical options than those that don't.


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## wingerjim (Feb 22, 2017)

Yes at 3 o'clock outside the waste band covered by larger print button down shirts cause I carry a med frame and also carry a spare mag at 9 o'clock except in the heat of summer then pocket carry a small semi auto or in cargo shorts. I always practice drawing an empty weapon for the season/carry method.


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## lklawson (Mar 1, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Not me. To me I wouldn't take the risk carry a weapon and you draw it in a situation someone could take it off you and use it on you


It's *martial*.  You don't "just know" it by osmotic transmission from the gun.  Get training and practice.  Then you'll know how and when, and be able to properly, effectively, and ethically deploy and use the tool, mitigating your concerns.

Old episodes of Gunsmoke and Cimarron Strip aren't training on how to properly carry, deploy, and use a firearm any more than Challenge of the Ninja was Kung Fu training.  Yet it never fails that people seem to think that they're just going to jam a gun into a conceal holster and be able to execute a set of physical skills properly under high stress.

That aside, statistically speaking, instances of a defender who was attempting to use a firearm for personal defense having the firearm taken away and used against them are really rare.   I've looked really hard to find them and only come up with about a dozen cases over several years, equaling no more than 3 per year at most.  To put that in perspective, in the U.S. there are between 76,000 and 989,883 Defensive Gun Uses (DGU) per year depending on the study that you choose (the low end number comes from the U.S. Department of Justice's National Crime Victim Survey and the high end from David McDowall's "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use" published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology, somewhere in the middle the Centers for Disease Control's study pegged it at 498,000 per year).  The low number, 76,000, and is more than double the 33,636 deaths due to "injury by firearms" which includes murders, suicides, and accidents.  Further it is now estimated that there are over 11.1 million Concealed Carry Permit holders (not counting those from states which do not require a permit) in the U.S. 

So with over 11.1 million carriers, using firearms defensively as much as 990,000 times a year, I'd hazard that the 3 times per year that a defensive firearm is "taken away and used against" the person is what is sometimes called "statistically insignificant."

So, while I understand that you're concerned that if you chose to carry a gun for self defense that someone might take it away and use it against you, frankly, that fear is unfounded and, in any case, easily mitigated with competent training and practice.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## CB Jones (Mar 1, 2017)

Excellent response


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## jks9199 (Mar 1, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Cross draws and shoulder draws are just bad.  It's a longer slower draw and with you arm across your body it is easier for the attacker to push your drawing hand or muzzle into your belly during your draw.



Nobody has shown me a crossdraw or especially a shoulder rig that doesn't involve poin ting your gun at people behind or beside you.  Not exactly something that's gonna endear you to me...  There's a place and time for them --- but not routine concealed carry.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 1, 2017)

1 I like guns
2 if I carry, I say nothing
3 if I was to carry, it's a left hand holster worn on my right, butt forward. I draw right, palm out, thumb to the rear.
4 when you carry, you have to protect yourself and the weapon
5 every self defense situation is now more likely to become deadly


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## CB Jones (Mar 1, 2017)

There is never a time for the cross draw or shoulder holster.

Again in close proximity it is easy for an attacker to grab the arm or gun with leverage and shove the muzzle into your stomach or chest.  

Also, both holsters position the gun's grip to be easily grabbed and drawn by an attacker.

Also during a draw the gun has to travel a further distance and has to rotate more before it can be fired.  Due to this it is a slower draw.

It is also harder to conceal draws that require your gun hand to cross your body.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 1, 2017)

When I describe butt first strong side carry, I'm not talking about crossdraw, aka cavalry draw. I'm talking about butt first strong side carry, strong side draw.


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## CB Jones (Mar 1, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> 1 I like guns
> 2 if I carry, I say nothing
> 3 if I was to carry, it's a left hand holster worn on my right, butt forward. I draw right, palm out, thumb to the rear.
> 4 when you carry, you have to protect yourself and the weapon
> 5 every self defense situation is now more likely to become deadly



I would suggest you switch to a right hand holster.

Wearing a left hand holster on the right side is an excellent way to shoot your self in the gut during your draw.

It also positions your gun to be easily taken away from you in a scuffle or pushed into your stomach as you try and draw it.

If you go by the laser rule....you laser your gut every time you draw.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 1, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> I would suggest you switch to a right hand holster.
> 
> Wearing a left hand holster on the right side is an excellent way to shoot your self in the gut during your draw.
> 
> It also positions your gun to be easily taken away from you in a scuffle or pushed into your stomach as you try and draw it.



I don't cross my body when I draw. And my weapon is further back on my hip. I've experimented a lot, carried a lot. This is how I carry. At 56,not likely to change.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 1, 2017)

I should also say the chance of a negligent discharge is lower with a da revolver.


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## CB Jones (Mar 1, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I don't cross my body when I draw. And my weapon is further back on my hip. I've experimented a lot, carried a lot. This is how I carry. At 56,not likely to change.



I understand that, but your muzzle crosses your body as you draw.

It starts with the muzzle pointed behind you and then crosses your body increasing your chance of shooting yourself.

With the gun turned the other way it minimizes your chance of a self inflicted mortal wound.


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## CB Jones (Mar 1, 2017)

Having your gun in a conventional position on your gun side allows for the least amount of movement to get in a firing position.

Once you clear the holster, the gun only has to rotate 90 degrees on one axis to be in a firing position which is more efficient.

With a butt facing forward position the gun must rotate on two axis rotating 90 degrees and 180 degrees which is less efficient.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 1, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> When I describe butt first strong side carry, I'm not talking about crossdraw, aka cavalry draw. I'm talking about butt first strong side carry, strong side draw.


I'm curious why you choose that draw, Bill.


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## CB Jones (Mar 1, 2017)

but make no doubt.....the important thing is you carrying...so let me also commend you for that.

Just giving you a something to think about.  This is stuff we teach undercover agents.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 1, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I'm curious why you choose that draw, Bill.


 Comfort mostly. Feels natural.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 1, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> but make no doubt.....the important thing is you carrying...so let me also commend you for that.
> 
> Just giving you a something to think about.  This is stuff we teach undercover agents.


 
I've been around a bit.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 1, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> I understand that, but your muzzle crosses your body as you draw.



No, it does not.


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## CB Jones (Mar 1, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> No, it does not.



If so that's good.

Most people cross their body with their muzzle from that position which isn't good.


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## lklawson (Mar 2, 2017)

Statistically speaking most, by an impressive degree, Unintended Discharges happen unrelated to the draw.  From what I can tell, unloading for service and cleaning (particularly those that require a trigger press to disassemble) lead the pack followed by "testing the trigger."

Most times that someone Unintended Discharges into their own body during a draw, it is from a hip draw (IWB/OWB).  Variations of "Glock Leg" seem to be disproportionately represented.

I can't remember ever seeing any reports of a defensive carrier accidentally shooting an innocent person as a result of a borked draw from a shoulder holster or cross-draw holster.  Can you point to any?  Can you point to enough examples to show that it is a statistically significant "problem?"
I also can't remember seeing more cases of a Concealed Carry in a defensive encounter having their drawstroke stuffed by the attacker from Shoulder/Cross/Appendix than those being stuffed from any other concealed holster method.  Can you point to enough examples to show that it is a statistically significant "problem?"
I recently heard an interview with firearms instructor, revolver expert, and author Grant Cunningham in which he described for a wide audience a philosophy which I've been espousing for years: _Possible_, _Plausible_, and _Likely._  Prepare first for what is statistically most likely.  Only after you've thoroughly dealt with what is most "likely" concern yourself with "plausible."  Don't spent much time worrying about "possible."  We have limited resources and cannot possibly prepare for every possibility.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Mar 2, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> If so that's good.
> 
> Most people cross their body with their muzzle from that position which isn't good.


Almost any drawstroke can be trained so that the motions of the draw do not sweep the body.  Even carry methods which start with the muzzle in contact or "pointing at" your body, such as Appendix for instance, can be performed in a way which immediately starts moving away from sweeping the body.  All it takes is attention to detail (where are you pointing "right now" during the drawstroke?) and practice, practice, practice.  Use a bluegun or quadruple check that your gun is unloaded and the ammo, every last darn cartridge, is in a different room.

Again, getting training on it from a competent and practiced instructor is the best way to learn.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 2, 2017)

lklawson said:


> Statistically speaking most, by an impressive degree, Unintended Discharges happen unrelated to the draw.  From what I can tell, unloading for service and cleaning (particularly those that require a trigger press to disassemble) lead the pack followed by "testing the trigger."
> 
> Most times that someone Unintended Discharges into their own body during a draw, it is from a hip draw (IWB/OWB).  Variations of "Glock Leg" seem to be disproportionately represented.
> 
> ...



If you google for 'police accidental shoot' or words like that, you see a lot of them.  Mostly shooting themselves in the foot.  That tells me something.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 2, 2017)

lklawson said:


> Almost any drawstroke can be trained so that the motions of the draw do not sweep the body.  Even carry methods which start with the muzzle in contact or "pointing at" your body, such as Appendix for instance, can be performed in a way which immediately starts moving away from sweeping the body.  All it takes is attention to detail (where are you pointing "right now" during the drawstroke?) and practice, practice, practice.  Use a bluegun or quadruple check that your gun is unloaded and the ammo, every last darn cartridge, is in a different room.
> 
> Again, getting training on it from a competent and practiced instructor is the best way to learn.
> 
> ...



Also I keep in mind a couple other things.

1) No such thing as accidental discharge.  Negligent discharge, yes.  That change in description informs.
2) A double-action handgun is far less likely to be discharged negligently by the act of drawing or routine handling of the weapon.
3) Condition 1 for semi-automatic weapons was (and perhaps still is) appropriate at a certain time, place, and set of circumstances.  With the advent of high-quality DA semi-autos, and of course the fact that commonly-carried wheelguns have been DA for many decades...

It's a lot harder to shoot yourself EVEN if you cross your body with your weapon if you carry and use your weapon safely.  I do not like pointing the muzzle of any weapon at anything I don't wish to die, including myself.  I also realize that guns don't magically discharge themselves; it takes an act - intentional or negligent, to do so.  Unless it is malfunctioning, but that too is down to negligence.

One could be rude and suggest that people who manage to shoot themselves 'accidentally' while drawing got what they deserved...


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## Danny T (Mar 2, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> No such thing as accidental discharge.   Negligent discharge, yes.
> 
> Unless it is malfunctioning, but that too is down to negligence.


^^^^^^^^ THIS!!
If you discharge a firearm for any reason other than to put a round into whatever the muzzle is pointed at then you are negligent.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 2, 2017)

Danny T said:


> ^^^^^^^^ THIS!!
> If you discharge a firearm for any reason other than to put a round into whatever the muzzle is pointed at then you are negligent.



When I was a Marine MP, we cleared our 1911A1 duty weapons in a clearing barrel at the end of shift.  Drop the magazine, rack the slide, ensure the chamber is empty, aim into the clearing barrel, pull the trigger.

Once a year or so, some young MP would manage to produce a 'bang' instead of a 'click'.  Naturally, this brought everyone running.  The unfortunate Jarhead in question would be written up and receive Commanding Officer's Non-Judicial Punishment (NJP) unless he or she elected to receive a Court Martial instead.  Typically, the punishment would be reduction in rank, restriction to barracks, forfeiture of pay, etc.  For a first offense.  There was no second offense, because the Marine in question would not be an MP anymore after that.

Why so harsh when the only damage was to the sand in the clearing barrel?

Because negligence.  There is no excuse.


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## lklawson (Mar 2, 2017)

Danny T said:


> ^^^^^^^^ THIS!!
> If you discharge a firearm for any reason other than to put a round into whatever the muzzle is pointed at then you are negligent.


No.  Not "for any reason."  Malfunction, parts wear, manufacturing defect, or defect in design (Nambu?) are examples which would not be user negligence.

I know that it seems like picking nits, but it's not and it is important to make the distinction.  Speaking in absolutes like this actually confuses the issue and makes it harder for new or inexperienced shooters to join the hobby.

Here's an example of what I mean.  I heard one woman speaking about her introduction to guns.  Part of it was Cooper's safety rules.  In particular, his first rule: "All guns are always loaded."  You and I know that it is intended to be a 'hard line' reminder to always treat guns as if they are loaded.  We know that it can not logically be true.  However, because she was completely inexperienced, the thought that "*All* guns are *always* loaded," actually made her afraid of them.  She couldn't figure out how it could be true but, heck, this expert over here told her it was the number one rule so it must be true.  Now, an Ayoob certified trainer herself, she restates the rule as, "Always treat all guns as if they are loaded."  It's a subtle difference but it made a big difference to her as a non-initiate.

So I very strongly encourage you to modify your statement, particularly when speaking to others, as "If you discharge a firearm for any reason except design defect or malfunction other than to put a round into whatever the muzzle is pointed at then you are negligent.  As bizarre as it sounds, there's someone, right now, somewhere who believes that you just told them that they are negligently responsible if the magic death machine discharges for any reason.  That won't make them more cautious, it makes them more afraid of an inanimate object.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## CB Jones (Mar 2, 2017)

lklawson said:


> Statistically speaking most, by an impressive degree, Unintended Discharges happen unrelated to the draw.  From what I can tell, unloading for service and cleaning (particularly those that require a trigger press to disassemble) lead the pack followed by "testing the trigger."
> 
> Most times that someone Unintended Discharges into their own body during a draw, it is from a hip draw (IWB/OWB).  Variations of "Glock Leg" seem to be disproportionately represented.
> 
> ...



Don't have any studies to quote.

My opinions are based on analysis of lethal force encounters during undercover operations and what worked well and what caused problems.

Also from observations during scenario training.

This is what we teach and we do not recommend cross draws.  In my opinion, a more conventional draw is more effective in a gunfight.

Also, a more conventional draw is much easier to conceal than crossdraws.


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## lklawson (Mar 2, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Don't have any studies to quote.
> 
> My opinions are based on analysis of lethal force encounters during undercover operations and what worked well and what caused problems.
> 
> ...


I'm not asking for studies or doubting that it "could" happen.  What I'm questioning is whether or not the risk of "could" rises to the level of something to actually be concerned about.  I "could" contract bubonic plague here in the U.S.  It's still around.  15 people caught it and 4 died from in in '15, iirc.  But what are the most likely diseases?  Statistically, I should be vastly more concerned about contracting Influenza.  Hundreds of thousands of people get it each year and as many as 36,000 die from it each year (depending on how you compile it).  

Again, with 900,000+ DGU's per year and 11.1+ million CCW holders, how many shoulder/cross draws are being stuffed per year? 

So, I'm not saying that a shoulder/cross draw can't be stuffed.  Of course they "can."  I'm saying that unless it happens a ton more than anyone has been able to document, then it's not really something worth worrying about.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## CB Jones (Mar 2, 2017)

Well it's more than just the draw being "stuffed" it's also because it isn't as effective or efficient.

A cross draw takes more movement and the draw itself is harder to conceal.

It's harder to retain in a struggle as well.

I'm recommending my opinion for the best methods and I just don't see a cross draw as one of the better methods of carrying.

In my opinion a cross draw creates a disadvantage for you in a gunfight as compared with a more conventional draw.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 2, 2017)

lklawson said:


> No.  Not "for any reason."  Malfunction, parts wear, manufacturing defect, or defect in design (Nambu?) are examples which would not be user negligence.



I believe I understand your point of view, but here's mine.

The person in possession of the firearm is ultimately responsible for anything that happens, whether due to design flaw, malfunction, or unintended consequences of situations like dropping the weapon, catching the trigger on something while drawing, leaving it where others can pick it up, etc.

The proof of that is seen in legal ramifications, not to mention the moral responsibilities many (not all, I admit) would feel if their weapon discharged and someone was injured or killed whom they did not intend to injure or kill.

So someone owns a badly-designed weapon like the aforementioned Nambu.  Are they negligent if it discharges while merely being looked at with an angry expression?  I would argue they are, because as the gun owner, they should know exactly what the strengths and weaknesses of the weapon are; as unsafe as it is, it should never have a live round within 10 feet of it.

Parts wear?  Again, gun owner is responsible for this.

As the concept was introduced to me:

The Rifleman's Creed
by Major General William H. Rupertus

This is my rifle. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
My rifle is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life.
Without me, my rifle is useless. Without my rifle, I am useless. I must fire my rifle true. I must shoot straighter than my enemy who is trying to kill me. I must shoot him before he shoots me. I will...
My rifle and I know that what counts in war is not the rounds we fire, the noise of our burst, nor the smoke we make. We know that it is the hits that count. We will hit...
My rifle is human, even as I, because it is my life. Thus, I will learn it as a brother. *I will learn its weaknesses, its strength, its parts, its accessories, its sights and its barrel. I will keep my rifle clean and ready, even as I am clean and ready.* We will become part of each other. We will...
Before God, I swear this creed. My rifle and I are the defenders of my country. We are the masters of our enemy. We are the saviors of my life.
So be it, until victory is America's and there is no enemy, but peace!​Granted that the above is dated and out-of-fashion, but this is what was taught in Marine Boot Camp in the late 1970s.  We were responsible for the condition of our weapons.  We were responsible for everything that happened to the weapon while it was in our control.  There absolutely was no such thing as an 'accidental' discharge; only authorized discharges and negligent discharges.

I do understand the concept you're espousing.  I get it.  But I do think that a very strict, no-fooling, approach to firearm safety and responsibility is important for a number of reasons.

Case in point - it's not that uncommon these days for a homeowner to catch some scumbag breaking into an outbuilding or a vehicle or to catch the bad guy as he's leaving the residence, and he chases the bad guy down the street, shooting at him.

If the gun owner understood on a basic, instinctive level that he and he alone (or she) was responsible for each and every one of those little highspeed murderballs of lead flying down the street at his or her neighbor's houses, he or she MIGHT think twice.  

Never mind that the law doesn't typically permit deadly force when a bad guy is FLEEING in most places in the USA, just the moral implications of caring what happens when you pull the trigger should be part of the base level understanding of every gun owner, IMHO.

_"I shot at the fleeing bad guy and I accidentally killed my neighbor's kid.  I'm sorry, didn't mean to do it."_  Now tell me, accidental discharge or negligent?

_"I dropped my gun and it's an old design SAA revolver that caused the round in the chamber to discharge, killing my neighbor.  I'm sorry, I didn't mean to do it."_  Accident or negligence?

_"I was in Walmart and I bent over to look at a price tag and my legally-concealed handgun fell out of my trick tacticool uberholster, and as I grabbed for it, it discharged, killing an innocent shopper.  I'm sorry, I didn't mean to do it."_  Accident or negligence?

I was raised with the same ethic as Massad Ayoob.  My dad taught me firearms safety when I got my first shotgun at age 10.  He taught me things like the nomenclature of the gun, how to disassemble, clean, and reassemble it.  He taught me that when you kill something or someone, they don't come back, they're gone forever.  He taught me how to cross a fenceline safely, how to carry in a cornfield so that hunters in a row don't shoot each other, how to keep my finger out of the triggerwell, how to keep the muzzle elevated and pointed downrange.

When I shot my first rabbit and it screamed like a human baby being tortured and he made me take the knife and put it out of its misery, then clean and later eat it, I was made to understand what life and death mean when you choose to go about armed.

Yes, I was taught that all guns are loaded.  I understood what you said - treat them as if they are always loaded, not that they are all literally loaded.  Even as a 10-year-old, I understood this.

All guns are loaded.  Got it.  Makes sense.  If it goes off and I didn't intend it to, that's on me.  In this world of 'not-my-fault', what happens with my weapon is entirely my fault - good or bad.


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## lklawson (Mar 2, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Well it's more than just the draw being "stuffed" it's also because it isn't as effective or efficient.
> 
> A cross draw takes more movement and the draw itself is harder to conceal.
> 
> ...


I don't disagree with any of that.  I agree that traditional hip carry makes a concealed drawstroke easier.  Frankly, I hate crossdraw, personally speaking.  I don't like shoulder as much either.  

But I recognize that shoulder/cross do have a place and sometimes make sense.  I have a friend who's a truckdriver, for instance.  Traditional hip doesn't work well for him when he's "on the job."

But that's really not what the gist of my complaint was, which was that getting into grappling over the gun, particularly getting stuffed during the drawstroke, really isn't a big issue for non-cop civvies.  For us, we're either getting the gun out or we're too busy fighting to try to get the gun out yet.

Cops, on the other hand...  Yeah, different circumstances mean different requirements.

That's another complaint I have about the Firearms for Self Defense community.  Most of us seem to believe that LEO training and methods (or worse, military methods and training) are what we should use.  It's not.  We're not cops.  We're not arresting bad guys and detaining suspects.  While there are, obviously, going to be some points of overlap, it's definitely not identical.

Why Military and Law Enforcement firearms force training may not be op

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## lklawson (Mar 2, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I believe I understand your point of view, but here's mine.


Not trying to be a jerk here, but what you just wrote was, "Yeah, I agree that it's not technically negligence, but the potential consequences are such that I'm going to say it is anyway in hopes that people will be scared into being extra cautious."  See any problems with that?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 2, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Well it's more than just the draw being "stuffed" it's also because it isn't as effective or efficient.
> 
> A cross draw takes more movement and the draw itself is harder to conceal.
> 
> ...


As I ponder this, I think there may be a difference in need between the audiences. Your experience is specific to undercover officers. The physics translates, of course, but how much of the situations translate with the same probability? Undercover officers, it seems, would be in a more high-risk environment. They would be more likely to need a concealed draw, and to attempt a draw with someone close enough to interfere. They may also be more likely to want a fast draw. I'd love to see some information on these sorts of decision points for civilians carrying, examining civilian use.


----------



## jks9199 (Mar 2, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> There is never a time for the cross draw or shoulder holster.


Military pilots and our helo crews use shoulder holsters.  Note that I specify a time and place.  There may be one for cross draw, though I can't think of one...


----------



## jks9199 (Mar 2, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> No, it does not.


I got how you'd carry, and I can see how you'd draw without lasering yourself...  but it seems mighty awkward.  But, hey, it's your call so long as you don't point the muzzle at me.


----------



## CB Jones (Mar 2, 2017)

I don't see the difference in the UC and John Q Public.

The UC is not making arrests or detaining suspects.  We are posing as a citizen and the gun is solely for self defense.

Whether I'm working UC or going to the grocery store I carry in a manner in which i can defend myself against a would be attacker.

I'm prepared to defend myself or family against the potential robbery homicide or crazed gunman.  And the same tactics are gonna work for the average citizen as it does for the UC in those scenarios.

For me, I carry in a manner that I feel gives me the best chance of winning the gunfight against someone who already has the drop on me.

Better to be over prepared than under prepared.


----------



## CB Jones (Mar 2, 2017)

jks9199 said:


> Military pilots and our helo crews use shoulder holsters.  Note that I specify a time and place.  There may be one for cross draw, though I can't think of one...



They carry shoulder holsters so the gun is out their way when they are seated in the cockpit.


----------



## jks9199 (Mar 2, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Also I keep in mind a couple other things.
> 
> 1) No such thing as accidental discharge.  Negligent discharge, yes.  That change in description informs.


While rare, there are true accidental discharges.  They're usually associated with weapon malfunctions.  Saw a video of one recently; the shooter had done an unloaded dry run of a course of fire, and when commanded to, loaded and made ready.  His finger was well away from the trigger.  AS he ran the slide forward, the gun fired.  Fortunately, he was pointed down range, so the worst that happened was a huge bump in the training session and some extra lead in the backstop.  Unfortunately, the video clip didn't include a postmortem of the gun.  At a guess, and judging by the totality of what I saw, I'd say that it was a striker fired gun (Glock/Sig 226/Springfield XD/lots of others, I don't recall if I noticed the make, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't a Glock because there are multiple safeties that would have to fail), and that the lug that prevents the striker from going forward failed as he ran the slide forward, allowing the striker to hit the primer of the first round as it loaded.  Wouldn't be surprised if he'd had a moment of semi-auto or even full auto fire if it hadn't gone off then.  Again, making a guesses -- don't see any reason to assume he neglected caring for his gun.  Parts sometimes are no-good and fail, with little or no warning...


----------



## jks9199 (Mar 2, 2017)

lklawson said:


> Here's an example of what I mean.  I heard one woman speaking about her introduction to guns.  Part of it was Cooper's safety rules.  In particular, his first rule: "All guns are always loaded."  You and I know that it is intended to be a 'hard line' reminder to always treat guns as if they are loaded.  We know that it can not logically be true.  However, because she was completely inexperienced, the thought that "*All* guns are *always* loaded," actually made her afraid of them.  She couldn't figure out how it could be true but, heck, this expert over here told her it was the number one rule so it must be true.  Now, an Ayoob certified trainer herself, she restates the rule as, "Always treat all guns as if they are loaded."  It's a subtle difference but it made a big difference to her as a non-initiate.


While they're a very functional set of safety rules, it helps to remember that Cooper's Cardinal Rules were developed for working on a hot range, where all the shooters routinely have loaded guns.  In that setting, treating all guns as loaded makes sense.  Once you move out of a particular environment -- you should know the condition of your weapon.  Maintaining the Cardinal Rules helps add to safety -- especially if you are unaware of the condition of a particular weapon.


----------



## jks9199 (Mar 2, 2017)

lklawson said:


> That's another complaint I have about the Firearms for Self Defense community.  Most of us seem to believe that LEO training and methods (or worse, military methods and training) are what we should use.  It's not.  We're not cops.  We're not arresting bad guys and detaining suspects.  While there are, obviously, going to be some points of overlap, it's definitely not identical.
> 
> Why Military and Law Enforcement firearms force training may not be op
> 
> ...


Some of the tactics, drills, and principles of military training are applicable to law enforcement -- but not all.  Some of the tactics, drills, and principles of LE training are applicable to the military.  (Striking commentary; a military special warfare type visited our academy to review some of the training on room and building clearing.  During one exercise, while the cops took control of a subject they encountered, and continued to clear the building -- he commented "We'd just have backed out and called in air support for a fire mission..."  Yeah -- kind of frowned on in LE.  )

Civilian training can learn from military and LE -- but needs to be structured to the realities of civilian use of a force.  A cop is justified, authorized, even required to initiate force in situations where a civilian lacks the justification to do so -- and if the training doesn't recognize that, it's a disservice in the extreme.


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## jks9199 (Mar 2, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> They carry shoulder holsters so the gun is out their way when they are seated in the cockpit.


But you did say "no time for a shoulder holster"   Just like I wouldn't recommend carrying a pistol in the middle of your chest for most people -- it can make sense for some people like breachers or some special ops types.


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## CB Jones (Mar 2, 2017)

jks9199 said:


> But you did say "no time for a shoulder holster"   Just like I wouldn't recommend carrying a pistol in the middle of your chest for most people -- it can make sense for some people like breachers or some special ops types.



True.  Point taken.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Mar 3, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> There is never a time for the cross draw or shoulder holster.



Nonsense. Carrying behind the hip while driving is uncomfortable, tears up the car seat, and makes the gun ridiculously difficult to reach. 
Now, my solution is to transfer the gun from the hip to a holster mounted in the car as I get in, but a shoulder holster is another viable option.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 3, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I don't cross my body when I draw. And my weapon is further back on my hip. I've experimented a lot, carried a lot. This is how I carry. At 56,not likely to change.



Sounds like you're carrying the gun in the classic "small of the back" position, but shifted closer to the hip. Is that accurate? If so, your draw would be essentially the same as any other "behind the hip" carrier, except palm out rather than palm in. I've carried that way myself, temporarily, following a shoulder injury.



CB Jones said:


> With the gun turned the other way it minimizes your chance of a self inflicted mortal wound.



I've only been in the ER since 1979, but I cannot recall ever, not even once, seeing anything remotely resembling a mortal wound caused by a negligent discharge from a behind the hip draw. Every wound I've treated caused by an ND during the draw or holstering movement has been a leg wound. And by far the majority of these have involved carrying without a holster. Appendix carry would be #2.


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## CB Jones (Mar 3, 2017)

Dirty Dog said:


> makes the gun ridiculously difficult to reach.



I respectfully disagree.

I have two friends who both were involved in lethal force encounters while sitting inside their vehicles and both had no problem drawing their guns from IWB on their hip.

Furthermore, one of t"the situations were an armed robbery of him from his driver side window.  Due to the gun being on his right hip, the robber did not see him draw his weapon and my friend had it out and pointed at him before the robber realized it.  From a cross draw position, most likely the robber would have seen him reaching for and drawing the weapon.


----------



## CB Jones (Mar 3, 2017)

Dirty Dog said:


> Sounds like you're carrying the gun in the classic "small of the back" position, but shifted closer to the hip. Is that accurate? If so, your draw would be essentially the same as any other "behind the hip" carrier, except palm out rather than palm in. I've carried that way myself, temporarily, following a shoulder injury.
> 
> 
> 
> I've only been in the ER since 1979, but I cannot recall ever, not even once, seeing anything remotely resembling a mortal wound caused by a negligent discharge from a behind the hip draw. Every wound I've treated caused by an ND during the draw or holstering movement has been a leg wound. And by far the majority of these have involved carrying without a holster. Appendix carry would be #2.



Ok, but we follow the laser rule and we are not going to teach or recommend a draw that leads to muzzling your torso after you have withdrawn your weapon from the holster.  Period.  That is just our safety rules.

You don't point a loaded gun at anything you don't intend to shoot....including yourself.

To remedy this the shooter has to move the gun down and around his body....which creates a less efficient draw and a disadvantage in a gun fight.

In a gun fight I want the gun coming out and up on target not out down and around then up on target.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 3, 2017)

Dirty Dog said:


> Sounds like you're carrying the gun in the classic "small of the back" position, but shifted closer to the hip. Is that accurate? If so, your draw would be essentially the same as any other "behind the hip" carrier, except palm out rather than palm in. I've carried that way myself, temporarily, following a shoulder injury.


 Correct, thanks.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 3, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Correct, thanks.


Ah, that's not what I was picturing. It makes sense to me now. Not my preference, but to each his own.


----------



## Buka (Mar 3, 2017)

I think what's most important is practicing the draw and firing from whatever carry position one prefers. As is the familiarity and experience one has with firearms, especially how that experience relates to one's day to day travels.

I've used an ankle holster before, (primarily as a back up) but don't really care for them at all. I've used shoulder holsters before, and I like some over others depending on the particular piece, but no longer use them - especially where I currently reside. (they tend to clash with t-shirts)

I think there's also a difference between a large handgun and a small handgun (as to preference of carry). And this also relates to each person's particular size. I'm small, and have less practical options than a much larger man.

I really don't like guns, not one little bit. More so as I get older. Kind of strange for a person who's carried professionally and personally for a very long time, but, hey, what can I say?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 3, 2017)

Buka said:


> I think what's most important is practicing the draw and firing from whatever carry position one prefers. As is the familiarity and experience one has with firearms, especially how that experience relates to one's day to day travels.
> 
> I've used an ankle holster before, (primarily as a back up) but don't really care for them at all. I've used shoulder holsters before, and I like some over others depending on the particular piece, but no longer use them - especially where I currently reside. (they tend to clash with t-shirts)
> 
> ...


I'm less fond of them than I once was. Can't tell if I'm headed the same way as you, Buka, but I definitely don't get the same joy from shooting them that I used to. I used to spend a couple of hours every weekend at an indoor range, just for the joy of shooting as many rounds as I could manage. Loaded my own back then to save money.

I was practicing my draw just yesterday. I never carry anymore (no CCW, too many situations where I wouldn't be allowed to carry if I had it), but I practice in case I need it. The gun stays in an electronic safe (fingertip touch combination) in the holster. If something seems awry, I take it out and put the holster on, so the draw might be necessary. The holster I have is great at retention (almost no chance of someone getting it out during a struggle), but there will be no fast or concealed draw from that SOB. Thinking maybe I need a new holster.


----------



## Sami Ibrahim (Mar 3, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> I carry inside the waistband in the 4-5 o'clock position just above my right rear pocket of my jeans.
> 
> Really comfortable position that still allows a "fast" draw but also allows you to conceal your draw as well.



I carry concealed in my right hand sometimes I carry concealed in my left hand, depending on which leg is hurting more. I also additionally carry concealed on my right hip and sometimes above my head (in my hat) and at times in the left and right pockets of my trench coat when I am wearing it. In those situations I keep one of my hands in my pocket on the weapon. While the other hand is holding the other concealed weapon in plane sight. 

Some say I suffer from paranoia.


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## Kong Soo Do (Mar 18, 2017)

Off duty I carry a Glock 26 appendix position.


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## CB Jones (Mar 18, 2017)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Off duty I carry a Glock 26 appendix position.



Never was able to carry in the appendix position.  Just never was comfortable.

Also a lot of the time I carry without a holster so I'm a little uneasy with it pointing at my junk.


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## Kong Soo Do (Mar 18, 2017)

Tried it with my Glock 19 and it was uncomfortable.  But with the G26 I almost forget I have it on.  Depends on the body type, gun and holster.  I like the appendix carry as the firearm is readily accessible while in the vehicle.  

Whenever I have to carry w/o a holster (which is rare these days) I would carry without a round in the chamber.  But I'm comfortable doing it as I was trained, and also teach Israeli Instinctive shooting which is full mag with empty chamber.


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## CB Jones (Mar 18, 2017)

Not a fan of carrying a firearm without one in the chamber.


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## Kong Soo Do (Mar 18, 2017)

It requires training to be proficient in the method.  But it works well.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 18, 2017)

Kong Soo Do said:


> It requires training to be proficient in the method.  But it works well.


It has advantages - I've just never liked the need to chamber the round before the gun can be deployed.


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## Kong Soo Do (Mar 19, 2017)

The beauty is in the totality of the training.  Part of the training is how to load/chamber one-handed, with either hand without the use of the holster.  How to chamber while moving/fighting.  Point shooting within 15 yards and head shots at 25 yards.

And examples of the training:

Standing at the 3yd line you pick up your partner in a fireman's carry (who is simulating an injury).  You then run back to the 25yd line while drawing, chambering one-handed and engaging three targets live fire.  

While engaging the target live fire an instructor comes up behind you and attacks you. Normally a choke or a sweep or both and you have to fight him off while still engaging the target with shots on target.  

It's pure combat shooting as taught in the Israeli IDF.  My niece was a detective and the first female motorcycle Officer in the country.  My nephew was an Officer.  Their father was also a detective.  Some of the teaching differs from what is taught as standard here in the U.S.  Not necessarily better or worse, just different.  And it's combat proven, which is the ultimate test really.  

Normally, my department policy is a round chambered and either an OWB or IWB holster.  However, on the rare occasion that I may not have a holster I'll carry without a round in the chamber.  I feel just as comfortable either way.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 19, 2017)

Kong Soo Do said:


> The beauty is in the totality of the training.  Part of the training is how to load/chamber one-handed, with either hand without the use of the holster.  How to chamber while moving/fighting.  Point shooting within 15 yards and head shots at 25 yards.
> 
> And examples of the training:
> 
> ...


I like the totality. I just don't like the (to me unnecessary) added complication of needing to chamber. Guns have safeties designed to make them reasonably safe for a round in the chamber. IMO, there's more likely to be a problem with the gun from some of the one-handed chambering under high stress than from a gun in a holster with a round in it.

Mind you, I'm not trained in one-handed chambering, so there is that. I know a few techniques for emergency use, and would probably find the level of training even for that to be useful. I still probably wouldn't carry with an empty chamber.


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## Kong Soo Do (Mar 19, 2017)

Understood.  While I don't necessarily advocate carrying a firearm without a round in the chamber, I do advocate strongly training the loading and chambering of a round one-handed.  With both the strong and support hand.  The reason is in the advent that one of your limbs becomes disabled you can still effectively stay in the fight (read:  Miami FBI massacre and the agent that still stayed in the fight after suffering a horrific injury to his arm).  I also advocated being able to clear a malfunction, one-handed, with either hand and without the holster.  Techniques that involve the holster are fine...unless you don't have a holster, the holster is damaged or your body position (prone) precludes it being effectively used.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 19, 2017)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Understood.  While I don't necessarily advocate carrying a firearm without a round in the chamber, I do advocate strongly training the loading and chambering of a round one-handed.  With both the strong and support hand.  The reason is in the advent that one of your limbs becomes disabled you can still effectively stay in the fight (read:  Miami FBI massacre and the agent that still stayed in the fight after suffering a horrific injury to his arm).  I also advocated being able to clear a malfunction, one-handed, with either hand and without the holster.  Techniques that involve the holster are fine...unless you don't have a holster, the holster is damaged or your body position (prone) precludes it being effectively used.


I definitely agree with those ideas, KSD. I have practiced (though not been trained in) clearing/chambering with one hand, both with and without using a holster (I actually find it more difficult against my kydex holster than a pair of jeans or belt). I am not great at it, and if I had the money to invest in training, that's something I'd be looking for.


----------



## CB Jones (Mar 19, 2017)

We also train being able to draw the weapon with your off hand in case your arm gets disabled before the draw.

Something to keep in mind....can you reach your weapon with your other arm?

My thought process on carrying is from an undecover role and I prefer a method with the least amount of motion to provide a quick concealed draw.

We also train in point shooting.....imho that is the best method of shooting inside 20 yards


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 19, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> We also train being able to draw the weapon with your off hand in case your arm gets disabled before the draw.
> 
> Something to keep in mind....can you reach your weapon with your other arm?
> 
> ...


I am a definite proponent of point shooting. I got rid of a gun I really liked, because it didn't "point" well. Something about how I gripped it just didn't work well with point shooting like with my other guns.

When I carried (OWB, just behind the hip), I practiced drawing across behind myself with my off-hand. The holster I currently keep my gun in at home (don't carry) would be impossible to draw off-hand. Something about it makes getting it out off-axis nearly impossible. That makes it unlikely someone else can get my gun from my holster at the cost of not being able to draw off-hand.


----------



## CB Jones (Mar 19, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I am a definite proponent of point shooting. I got rid of a gun I really liked, because it didn't "point" well. Something about how I gripped it just didn't work well with point shooting like with my other guns.
> 
> When I carried (OWB, just behind the hip), I practiced drawing across behind myself with my off-hand. The holster I currently keep my gun in at home (don't carry) would be impossible to draw off-hand. Something about it makes getting it out off-axis nearly impossible. That makes it unlikely someone else can get my gun from my holster at the cost of not being able to draw off-hand.



Interesting.

If you don't mind, what kind of holster is it?  Guessing some kind of triple retention


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 19, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Interesting.
> 
> If you don't mind, what kind of holster is it?  Guessing some kind of triple retention


It's an earlier model of this Galco holster: M7X MATRIX: Galco Belt Holsters at Galco

So far as I know, there's no intentional extra retention to it. It just doesn't allow the gun out well at anything except an upward draw, and even that needs significant force. Interestingly, when it's not on the belt, it's a bit easier to draw if you know the holster. If anyone managed to get into my bedside safe without waking me, they'd likely take several seconds at least to free the gun from the holster. I can draw it from my belt or from the free holster because I've practiced and know how.

Essentially, I think it's a slightly defective holster, that happens to work for my purposes.


----------



## CB Jones (Mar 19, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> It's an earlier model of this Galco holster: M7X MATRIX: Galco Belt Holsters at Galco
> 
> So far as I know, there's no intentional extra retention to it. It just doesn't allow the gun out well at anything except an upward draw, and even that needs significant force. Interestingly, when it's not on the belt, it's a bit easier to draw if you know the holster. If anyone managed to get into my bedside safe without waking me, they'd likely take several seconds at least to free the gun from the holster. I can draw it from my belt or from the free holster because I've practiced and know how.
> 
> Essentially, I think it's a slightly defective holster, that happens to work for my purposes.



Looking at that holster it looks like you might just be putting it in a bind.

If you are carrying past 3 o'clock try reaching around behind and instead of grasping the pistols handle....grasp the pistol below the handle around the trigger guard and slide.

This will make it easier to draw it more straight up and eliminate the bind you are putting on it.

Of course you will have change your grip afterwards but the main thing is getting it out of the holster.


----------



## Buka (Mar 19, 2017)

Sometimes I carry with a round chambered, sometimes I don't. Quite comfortable both ways. Always qualify both hands as well, been doing that since the eighties. That came in handy yesterday as I had to clear some defunct storage areas that had no lights and strange twist and turns. (a few I had never been in before) Sure wakes you up in a hurry on an otherwise peaceful day.

Afterwards I had a triple expresso - just to bring my heart rate down.


----------



## CB Jones (Mar 19, 2017)

Man Buka....get you some backup before you start clearing areas.  You ain't at Neo level yet.


----------



## Buka (Mar 19, 2017)

I'm old, bro, more at Morpheus level. 

You know how it goes, set up a wide perimeter and close. We were spread out, but it all worked out.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 19, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Looking at that holster it looks like you might just be putting it in a bind.
> 
> If you are carrying past 3 o'clock try reaching around behind and instead of grasping the pistols handle....grasp the pistol below the handle around the trigger guard and slide.
> 
> ...


I'll get it out and give that a try later. That might be what I've been doing that makes it drawable. In any case, my point was that someone who reaches in and tries to take the gun from that holster is really just attaching themselves to my hip. Makes a nice point from which to break their structure, for an Aikido guy. I get to keep the gun and stay on my feet. They probably don't get either.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 19, 2017)

Buka said:


> Sometimes I carry with a round chambered, sometimes I don't. Quite comfortable both ways. Always qualify both hands as well, been doing that since the eighties. That came in handy yesterday as I had to clear some defunct storage areas that had no lights and strange twist and turns. (a few I had never been in before) Sure wakes you up in a hurry on an otherwise peaceful day.
> 
> Afterwards I had a triple expresso - just to bring my heart rate down.


I worry about the folks in blue when y'all have to do that kind of stuff. Too many movies, too many friends in blue.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 19, 2017)

Buka said:


> Sometimes I carry with a round chambered, sometimes I don't. Quite comfortable both ways. Always qualify both hands as well, been doing that since the eighties. That came in handy yesterday as I had to clear some defunct storage areas that had no lights and strange twist and turns. (a few I had never been in before) Sure wakes you up in a hurry on an otherwise peaceful day.
> 
> Afterwards I had a triple expresso - just to bring my heart rate down.


I'm glad all that came out good for you guys, bro.

I've always worked both hands when shooting. I think my dad actually started me on that, but I'm not sure.


----------



## Buka (Mar 20, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I worry about the folks in blue when y'all have to do that kind of stuff. Too many movies, too many friends in blue.



Me, too.
But what I do should not be confused with actual Police work. It was on that day, but that's an exception rather than the rule. Ninety percent of the time we are nothing more than uniformed baby sitters.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 20, 2017)

Buka said:


> Me, too.
> But what I do should not be confused with actual Police work. It was on that day, but that's an exception rather than the rule. Ninety percent of the time we are nothing more than uniformed baby sitters.


Ninety percent of the time, I don't have to worry about you, brother.


----------



## Buka (Mar 25, 2017)

A little Saturday strings action...


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## PhotonGuy (Mar 30, 2017)

Usually I don't carry. I am more than capable of taking care of myself without carrying. Even though some people might say that Im getting up there in years I can handle myself just fine without carrying a weapon. As for those who do carry, if they meet the legal requirements for doing so than as far as Im concerned that's their choice but as for me, I usually don't see a need to carry.


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## CB Jones (Mar 30, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> Usually I don't carry. I am more than capable of taking care of myself without carrying. Even though some people might say that Im getting up there in years I can handle myself just fine without carrying a weapon. As for those who do carry, if they meet the legal requirements for doing so than as far as Im concerned that's their choice but as for me, I usually don't see a need to carry.



Bulletproof Monk?


----------



## PhotonGuy (Mar 31, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Bulletproof Monk?



No. I just don't find myself up against bad guys with guns all that often.


----------



## CB Jones (Mar 31, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> No. I just don't find myself up against bad guys with guns all that often.



I understand but playing devils advocate.

What happens that day you do find yourself up against them.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Mar 31, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> No. I just don't find myself up against bad guys with guns all that often.



And when you do, have you got a pre-arranged funeral plan?


----------



## Danny T (Mar 31, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> No. I just don't find myself up against bad guys with guns all that often.


Have a spare tire on your vehicle? Find yourself up against flat tires often?
Have a fire extinguisher in your home? Find yourself up against uncontrolled fires often?
Have locks on your doors and use them? Find yourself with people just walking into your home often?


----------



## PhotonGuy (Mar 31, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> I understand but playing devils advocate.
> 
> What happens that day you do find yourself up against them.



Well in that case my first course of action would be to run.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Mar 31, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> Well in that case my first course of action would be to run.



Turn your back on a gun. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense.


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## PhotonGuy (Mar 31, 2017)

Dirty Dog said:


> And when you do, have you got a pre-arranged funeral plan?



The alternative would be to risk going to jail since in NJ where I spend much of my time you can't carry.


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## PhotonGuy (Mar 31, 2017)

Danny T said:


> Have a spare tire on your vehicle? Find yourself up against flat tires often?
> Have a fire extinguisher in your home? Find yourself up against uncontrolled fires often?
> Have locks on your doors and use them? Find yourself with people just walking into your home often?



Spare tires, fire extinguishers, and door locks are not illegal here in NJ but carrying a gun usually is unless you're a police officer or if you're in some other profession that involves carrying guns.


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## PhotonGuy (Mar 31, 2017)

Dirty Dog said:


> Turn your back on a gun. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense.



That would depend on the situation. Lets say Im unarmed and Im in some public area such as a mall, movie theater, ect. and suddenly a mass shooter comes along and starts shooting up the place. My first course of action would be to find the nearest cover and than to try to get to the closest exit.


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## CB Jones (Mar 31, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> The alternative would be to risk going to jail since in NJ where I spend much of my time you can't carry.



Well there is your problem....you are in New Jersey.

Now that we have identified the core problem you can fix it.


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## Danny T (Apr 1, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> Spare tires, fire extinguishers, and door locks are not illegal here in NJ but carrying a gun usually is unless you're a police officer or if you're in some other profession that involves carrying guns.


You have now changed your discussion point.
Your original statement and point was: "I just don't find myself up against bad guys with guns all that often." 
All that often implies it does happen and but not enough times apparently, for you, to carry in order to defend yourself.
Now you are saying you don't carry because you can not legally carry where you are. This is a valid point but is a completely different discussion point.
And New Jersey has a Permit to Carry license.


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## PhotonGuy (Apr 1, 2017)

Danny T said:


> You have now changed your discussion point.
> Your original statement and point was: "I just don't find myself up against bad guys with guns all that often."
> All that often implies it does happen and but not enough times apparently, for you, to carry in order to defend yourself.
> Now you are saying you don't carry because you can not legally carry where you are. This is a valid point but is a completely different discussion point.


I've never been up against a criminal with a gun. Hopefully I won't. Carrying might be a good idea since theres always a first time but there is the legality of being able to carry that comes into play. I don't expect to carry in NJ anytime soon for that reason.



Danny T said:


> And New Jersey has a Permit to Carry license.



Technically they do but they're really hard to get. You more or less have to be a police officer to get a New Jersey Carry Permit.


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## PhotonGuy (Apr 1, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Well there is your problem....you are in New Jersey.
> 
> Now that we have identified the core problem you can fix it.



Im working on that. Hopefully PA will be my primary residence.


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