# Karate and Shortened lifespan?



## miyagi (Sep 21, 2013)

Anyone ever hear anything about this study? Thoughts?

I can MAYBE see a chronic inflammatory state from hours of constant daily Okinawan body conditioning/hardening that the
Masters of old COULD perhaps contribute to some maladies...but geez!


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## Makalakumu (Sep 21, 2013)

I've heard about this before. Apparently, because of the focus on forced breathing in certain styles, many of the master practitioners of old died young. This seems to be more common in the Goju and Uechi styles and not so much in the Shorin styles.


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 21, 2013)

Pseudo-science at best.

Doesn't consider cause of death.
Doesn't consider family history.
Doesn't consider comorbidities.
Doesn't consider any of a hundred (at least) other factors.


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## Makalakumu (Sep 22, 2013)

Ok, watched the video and am probably going to purchase the book. It looks interesting. It looks like some of the classical training methods really are damaging. The breathing techniques and stanchion practice stand out. Also, other techniques that cause inflammation like maki wars training could also be really unhealthy, according to the movie.


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## ballen0351 (Sep 22, 2013)

How does breathing techniques cause health problems?  I cant watch the clip right now but that just sounds funny


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## Makalakumu (Sep 22, 2013)

Dirty Dog said:


> Pseudo-science at best.
> 
> Doesn't consider cause of death.
> Doesn't consider family history.
> ...



Did you read the book? Have you considered that there might be more information there than what is just in the video?


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## Makalakumu (Sep 22, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> How does breathing techniques cause health problems?  I cant watch the clip right now but that just sounds funny



From what I have read, it's the hard forced breathing combined with the beating that tests the structure of sanchin that is not healthy for a person.


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## RTKDCMB (Sep 22, 2013)

I would have thought Karate would increase your lifespan - someone tries to kill you, you use your Karate to defend yourself, you live longer.


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## Makalakumu (Sep 22, 2013)

Here is some information gathered by medical practitioners that seems to indicate that sanchin practice is no more dangerous than doing squats in a gym.

http://www.olemiss.edu/orgs/karate/sanchin.html


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## seasoned (Sep 22, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> Here is some information gathered by medical practitioners that seems to indicate that sanchin practice is no more dangerous than doing squats in a gym.
> 
> http://www.olemiss.edu/orgs/karate/sanchin.html



My feeling is and always has been that it's not Sanchin or any other breathing exercises that is the problem. If done improperly with the emphasis on constricting the air from flowing through the mouth freely, this could in fact add to the detriment. Sanchin in particular, came from China where such problems don't seem to be an issue.


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 22, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> Did you read the book? Have you considered that there might be more information there than what is just in the video?



No. I'm not wasting my money. They make a claim and present their reasons. Their methodology is pathetic. 
If they had good science, they'd have been well advised to present it. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.


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## Makalakumu (Sep 22, 2013)

Dirty Dog said:


> No. I'm not wasting my money. They make a claim and present their reasons. Their methodology is pathetic.
> If they had good science, they'd have been well advised to present it.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.



I'm not so sure, some arguments take longer than13 minutes to present. Anyway, I don't know if this has any veracity at all, but it does seem to dovetail with some of the rumors that have propagated in karate communities. People have wondered why certain karate masters, particularly people who practiced Naha-te styles, died much younger than those that practiced Tomari or Shorin styles. If the book does nothing more than show a statistical correlation between Naha styles and shortened lifespans, that is indicating something worth noting.


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## K-man (Sep 22, 2013)

I would be interested in reading the book though I am not sure I am that keen that I am prepared to pay for the experience.

Like *DD* says, I would like to see more data before I blame Sanchin. This hypothesis has been round for many years but Sanchin is practised in so many different ways, even within the same basic style. For example the breathing and testing in Okinawan Goju Ryu is totally different to the breathing and testing in Japanese Goju Kai. Uechi Ryu is more like the Japanese Goju.

Does inflammation play a role? Quite likely as inflammation can be painful and debilitating. But, you are not going to have a great deal of inflammation from performing Sanchin. 

So, despite the risks, I will continue performing Sanchin and hopefully continue to live a happy and healthy life for many years to come.


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## Makalakumu (Sep 22, 2013)

K-man said:


> I would be interested in reading the book though I am not sure I am that keen that I am prepared to pay for the experience.
> 
> Like *DD* says, I would like to see more data before I blame Sanchin. This hypothesis has been round for many years but Sanchin is practised in so many different ways, even within the same basic style. For example the breathing and testing in Okinawan Goju Ryu is totally different to the breathing and testing in Japanese Goju Kai. Uechi Ryu is more like the Japanese Goju.
> 
> ...



I hope for the same as well. Sanchin practice looks fun and i'd like to try it some time!

The inflamation factor may be something for people to consider. Some karate styles do hard makiwara training and hard sparring and with both of these it's reasonable assume that there is an increased amount of inflamation. Also, in other contact sports like football, we know the hard training does in fact shorten the lifespans of the athletes.

IDK, maybe moderation is the lesson here.


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## Grenadier (Sep 23, 2013)

The practice of Karate itself isn't necessarily detrimental to the body.  The effect of the shorter lifespans could have quite a few other causes, especially since today's medical care vastly supercedes that what was available just a few decades ago.  Also, people are more aware of better nutrition these days.  

I don't disagree, though, that the methods used in some schools *could* have a detrimental effect.  As Makalakumu stated, it's no different any other physical activity.  After all, an older fellow who tries to play 2 hours of tennis running around the court, trying to out-rally his opponent, everyday is probably going to be feeling the effects in his elbow (tennis elbow), or maybe will feel some joint inflammation in his knees, since hard courts aren't exactly that forgiving.  

Does that mean he shouldn't play?  Of course not.  Instead of trying to play the game like a teenager, he would play further up, cutting off the ball before it has a chance to take a wide reaching bounce, or perhaps switch to a "chip and charge" approach to the game, favoring net play, instead of baseline play.  For that matter, quite a few older folks can "hang in there" with the younger folks by playing smarter, not harder.

After all, it may not exactly be a wise thing for a 60 year old to be training in Karate like a 20 year old would.  At the age of 60, your joints can't absorb the same kind of punishment that a younger fellow's could, nor are the muscles of the body quite as strong as they used to be.  Hence, the vigorous blow to the abdomen that a younger fellow could easily shrug off, could very well be much more dangerous for the 60 year old to absorb, since there's less muscle available to absorb the shot.  

As we get older, our training methods will have to adapt, just like the above mentioned tennis player.  An older practitioner shouldn't be pounding his hands into a makiwara for an hour a day, nor should he be constantly taking many falls on hardwood surfaces.  Does this mean that he shouldn't use the old methods?  Not necessarily.  Instead, he would simply do things in moderation, and be more aware of his bodily situation.  


The alternative, of course, is the cessation of training, but are you willing to give up the health *benefits* that come from Karate training?  I think not...


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## K-man (Sep 23, 2013)

Grenadier said:


> The practice of Karate itself isn't necessarily detrimental to the body.  The effect of the shorter lifespans could have quite a few other causes, especially since today's medical care vastly supercedes that what was available just a few decades ago.  Also, people are more aware of better nutrition these days.
> 
> I don't disagree, though, that the methods used in some schools *could* have a detrimental effect.  As Makalakumu stated, it's no different any other physical activity.  After all, an older fellow who tries to play 2 hours of tennis running around the court, trying to out-rally his opponent, everyday is probably going to be feeling the effects in his elbow (tennis elbow), or maybe will feel some joint inflammation in his knees, since hard courts aren't exactly that forgiving.
> 
> ...


I'm sure I speak for a couple of others around here when I say I might have to get you to talk to some of my students about taking age into account. They don't seem to recognise the age difference and to be fair, I don't either. I was nearly 60 when I first started aikido and the rolling is getting harder. But in karate ... I haven't hit the wall yet. 

To be more serious, in Goju, the way the Okinawans practise Sanchin, the breathing is not as forced and so any internal pressure would be less. Also I'm sure we don't preform the kata as often as they did. The testing is to determine correct posture and focus, not to have pieces of wood broken across your back. I remember in Japanese Goju always being kicked in the stomach.

The concern has obviously arisen from the fact that Okinawans have for many years had some of the longest living people on Earth. You would then expect someone with a lifetime of healthy living and physical conditioning to be among the longest living group. That this is not the case bares investigation. But, although this study could be right about the earlier practitioners in Okinawa in particular, I am not sure that it would translate to modern times in Western countries. I think I will continue with my martial arts for as long as physically possible, hopefully another 20 years at least!
:s472:


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## Makalakumu (Sep 23, 2013)

K-man said:


> I'm sure I speak for a couple of others around here when I say I might have to get you to talk to some of my students about taking age into account. They don't seem to recognise the age difference and to be fair, I don't either. I was nearly 60 when I first started aikido and the rolling is getting harder. But in karate ... I haven't hit the wall yet.
> 
> To be more serious, in Goju, the way the Okinawans practise Sanchin, the breathing is not as forced and so any internal pressure would be less. Also I'm sure we don't preform the kata as often as they did. The testing is to determine correct posture and focus, not to have pieces of wood broken across your back. I remember in Japanese Goju always being kicked in the stomach.
> 
> ...



I really hope this is the case, because I love my karate and I feel great after training. I would hate to learn that it was unhealthy.

The point about the long lifespans of Okinawans bears repeating. Okinawa has the highest percentage of centenarions in it's population and this is due to things like diet, active lifestyles, and strong friendships. So, if on average Okinawans live so much longer, why did so many karate practicioners die young? 

That is a profound question.


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## ballen0351 (Sep 23, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> I really hope this is the case, because I love my karate and I feel great after training. I would hate to learn that it was unhealthy.
> 
> The point about the long lifespans of Okinawans bears repeating. Okinawa has the highest percentage of centenarions in it's population and this is due to things like diet, active lifestyles, and strong friendships. So, if on average Okinawans live so much longer, why did so many karate practicioners die young?
> 
> That is a profound question.



By many stories I've read about some of the people mentioned in the clip these guys didn't live the most healthy lifestyle.  Then you look at some modern day karate masters like Morio Higaonna I can't believe he's in his 70s.  Last time I met him he dropped me to my knees while only holding the tip of my finger.  He looks and moves better then a lot of 40 year olds.


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## punisher73 (Sep 23, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> By many stories I've read about some of the people mentioned in the clip these guys didn't live the most healthy lifestyle. Then you look at some modern day karate masters like Morio Higaonna I can't believe he's in his 70s. Last time I met him he dropped me to my knees while only holding the tip of my finger. He looks and moves better then a lot of 40 year olds.



That is true, many of the masters who died at a younger age did not take care of themselves very well.  We must also remember, that many of the masters died very close to WW2 era, and that played a huge role.

The other thing to take into account is that much of the hype about okinawans living longer, is false.  The "okinawan diet" for example, says that they live on lean meats etc.  The okinawans typically have alot of pork in their diet and it is fatty.  More recently, the Japanese govt looked into why there were so many people over 100 and tried to figure it out and what they found was fraud.  The family members were dead and they kept saying they were alive to keep cashing checks.

If we look at some other factors that come into play into life expectancy we see 1) Infant mortality rate 2) Childhood deaths 3) Rate of disease.  So what's the violence rate in Okinawa?  I'm betting it is far far lower than in America, which is going to skew the data.  Also, if you look at the data, it shows that Okinawan men are not much better off than most other men in the world.  What really sets okinawa's rate up is for the women at age 86, it brings their whole average up.

So back to the "shortened lifespan" and karate.  Karate training will not lower your lifespan.  Abusing your body, no matter what physical or nonphysical activity is what will shorten your life span.


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## Makalakumu (Sep 25, 2013)

punisher73 said:


> More recently, the Japanese govt looked into why there were so many people over 100 and tried to figure it out and what they found was fraud.  The family members were dead and they kept saying they were alive to keep cashing checks.



Lot's of wisdom in your post, but this line stuck out.  Just curious, do you have a source for this info?


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## punisher73 (Sep 25, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> Lot's of wisdom in your post, but this line stuck out. Just curious, do you have a source for this info?



Here is one story that I found.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-11258071


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## K-man (Sep 25, 2013)

punisher73 said:


> Here is one story that I found.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-11258071


I went further and chased up many articles. I think most of the fraud was mainland Japan, not Okinawa, but it is a mute point. The life expectancy in Okinawa is only about 2 years, from memory, more than mainland Japan. Also from memory, it was the number of centenarians in Okinawa that drew attention. So, I'm not convinced that a lot of karate practitioners in Okinawa did die much ahead of their time. :asian:


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## Happy-Papi (Sep 25, 2013)

I don't know much about the karate since I'm not a real karate guy but since my son is doing karate and sometimes I teach at dojos other martial arts, I do meet lots of senior martial artists. Comparing senior karate guys to ordinary senior guys in the same age bracket, normally the karate guys would look more muscular, more fit, more genki (lively), and looks a lot younger. Most of the senior guys that I have met eats normally, drinks alcohol and smokes like a chimney (smoking is very common in Japan). They are no karate masters like the guys in this topic but they seem to be having a good long life. 

Basing on this thread I talked to some senior karate guys on what they think. They said that probably life was tougher back then and medicine was still at an early stage that a common flu can kill, unlike now that even cancer can be cured. One commented that probably the old guys didn't have much stuffs to think about aside from economy, politics, war and martial arts. One commented that these days we have TV shows, computer games, MP3 and iPhone which helps in keeping them young and away from Alzheimer disease, lol. They both said that life expectancy in the older days were shorter compared to now because of industrialization, war and lack of food and said that these guys have actually have lived longer than normal people in their time. Again, I don't know much and I have talked with only a few senior Japanese karate guys around my area so please don't take my word seriously.


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## Victor Smith (Sep 27, 2013)

When you consider Okinawa's people have the longest lifespans in the world, and consider the hardships of WWII had much to do contributing to the deaths of many aged instructors and the effects on survivors all such stories are suspect.

There are karate-ka who do sanchin and died younger. There are karate-ka who do sanchin who died in their 90's and as concrete a case can be made that their training contributed to their long lives.

What we can say is that people everywhere are catty about talking about others.

On Okinawa they feel that the instructors are best who live the longest, period.

And in the end it's really about how we live not how or how long, does it matter.

Living in Okinawa, eating the traditional Okinawan diet, eschewing hamburgers, likely do more for you living longer than other training issues,

Or so it seems to me..


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## FullPotentialMA (Sep 28, 2013)

There are certainly things that, done to an excess, are bad for you.
One example would be excessive body conditioning / iron shirt. Especially if done incorrectly, in later age it can lead to osteoarthritis, and to compartment syndrome -- a very painful and debilitating condition.
Having a good instructor is important to avoiding those downsides.


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## RTKDCMB (Sep 28, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> How does breathing techniques cause health problems?  I cant watch the clip right now but that just sounds funny



I know not breathing causes health problems.


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## FullPotentialMA (Oct 13, 2013)

Unfortunately, not all that is "old" and "authentic" is good for you.
There several things that some old masters taught and that were plain bad for your health. In that category is drinking various potions. I would also put excessive body conditioning in that category. You still see karate martial artists today who are proud of their callous and swollen knuckles. It's fine and cool when you are young. At middle age, it leads to early osteoarthritis, and the very painful and debilitating "compartment syndrome".


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## chinto (Nov 14, 2013)

Goju Ryu practioners doing sanchin with full dynamic tension usually suffer from high blood pressure and some other things. this is a result of the practice of the dynamic tension raising the blood pressure and triggering the adrenal glands. the Okinawans have commented for over a century how the Goju instructors tend to die much younger often of aneurisms and strokes and things like that.

the correlation to early death is not there with Shorin Ryu styles to the best of my knowledge.


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## donald1 (Nov 14, 2013)

My goju ryu teacher told our class it was from years of intense training like what chinto said (the high blood pressure and adrenaline glands,  I did not know about that being part of it


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## dancingalone (Nov 15, 2013)

chinto said:


> Goju Ryu practioners doing sanchin with full dynamic tension usually suffer from high blood pressure and some other things. this is a result of the practice of the dynamic tension raising the blood pressure and triggering the adrenal glands. the Okinawans have commented for over a century how the Goju instructors tend to die much younger often of aneurisms and strokes and things like that.
> 
> the correlation to early death is not there with Shorin Ryu styles to the best of my knowledge.



I don't think there is a real link there.  Most of the people who died 'early' that are mentioned in discussions like these are guys like Miyagi who suffered incredible privation during WWII.  Or they're people from a different era where medical technology wasn't as advanced and drinking and smoking to excess was common.

We should look at the lifespan of current Goju-ryu practitioners and compare them to other karate-ka, though inevitably we run into that sampling size problem since the numbers of high level karate-ka that can be tracked are miniscule.  Anecdotally, Miyazato Eiichi the founder of my lineage died in 1999 at age 77.  That's certainly not an early age to die at.


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## donald1 (Nov 15, 2013)

dancingalone said:


> I don't think there is a real link there.



I can't say why the shortened lifespan because I never lived in that time period but if it is true it could have been from internal bleeding...  Just a guess but possible


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## dancingalone (Nov 15, 2013)

donald1 said:


> I can't say why the shortened lifespan because I never lived in that time period but if it is true it could have been from internal bleeding...  Just a guess but possible



You've been watching too many movies, man.


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## donald1 (Nov 16, 2013)

dancingalone said:


> You've been watching too many movies, man.



Nope, I don't watch movies,  just a guess(I'm going to ask my instructor this question i bet he knows)


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## llbark (Jan 13, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> Pseudo-science at best.
> 
> Doesn't consider cause of death.
> Doesn't consider family history.
> ...




Dirty Dog, I work in the healthcare industry and would advise you to understand statistics (and probably read the book) before making such statements - the data is normalized by being compared against such variables given the normal population comparison (the book actually gives an intro on this topic and these variables from the University involvement it had). . The statistics used the same industry and research standards that are used by life insurance agencies, national health bodies, medical university studies etc. So I don't really understand why they are being questioned as an approach backed up by the appropriate statistics. The 118 masters of karate broken down in the stats is not a small number compared to many patient group studies when being compared to the larger population lifespan data via what is called life expectancy at birth prediction tables and life at death prediction tables etc. 


Karate of course is not the only sport that appears to reduce lifespan and the book talks about some others - other studies like this one also tease out the variables around diet, region, occupation, training types, psychology and the list goes on. As the book states in one part, people have to be aware of the difference in exercise in regards to whether we are training for health, fitness or enjoyment as they are all different things (and the government health bodies recognize this).


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## K-man (Jan 13, 2014)

llbark said:


> Dirty Dog, I work in the healthcare industry and would advise you to understand statistics (and probably read the book) before making such statements - the data is normalized by being compared against such variables given the normal population comparison (the book actually gives an intro on this topic and these variables from the University involvement it had). . The statistics used the same industry and research standards that are used by life insurance agencies, national health bodies, medical university studies etc. So I don't really understand why they are being questioned as an approach backed up by the appropriate statistics. The 118 masters of karate broken down in the stats is not a small number compared to many patient group studies when being compared to the larger population lifespan data via what is called life expectancy at birth prediction tables and life at death prediction tables etc.
> 
> 
> Karate of course is not the only sport that appears to reduce lifespan and the book talks about some others - other studies like this one also tease out the variables around diet, region, occupation, training types, psychology and the list goes on. As the book states in one part, people have to be aware of the difference in exercise in regards to whether we are training for health, fitness or enjoyment as they are all different things (and the government health bodies recognize this).


Well I just ran a few figures. I picked 23 well know karate figures who have either started styles or been the senior students of those men. They died at ages ranging between 62 and 90. Their average age at death was 77. The year they died averaged was 1963. (I only picked the best known guys because I don't have access to huge numbers, but my 23 include all the guys that you normally read about.

In Okinawa in 1963 the average life expectancy was between 72 and 73.     http://www.okicent.org

In most cultures there is a difference of two or three years between male and female so let's say the average age of death for males in 1963 was 70. By my back of envelope figuring these guys did better than the average by 10% or 7 years. In actual fact only 5 of the 23 died before age 70.

As has been attributed to Mark Twain .. "Lies, damned lies and statistics".

I'm with *Dirty Dog* on this one.  

(BTW ..  I also worked in the healthcare industry all my working life. That doesn't change the fact that these figures are open to question at the very least.)
:asian:


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 13, 2014)

I'm with Dirty Dog and K-Man on this one!

I will say though that excessive body conditioning as cool as it is when you are younger may not be so cool when you are older.  Just sayin......


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## Tgace (Jan 13, 2014)

I don't believe the average American Karate practitioner has much to worry about, but extreme body conditioning practices and a lifetime of head blows can't be good for you. Martial Arts  are not singular in this. Look at what is happening to older boxers and football players in our society.


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## llbark (Jan 14, 2014)

K-man said:


> Well I just ran a few figures. I picked 23 well know karate figures who have either started styles or been the senior students of those men. They died at ages ranging between 62 and 90. Their average age at death was 77. The year they died averaged was 1963. (I only picked the best known guys because I don't have access to huge numbers, but my 23 include all the guys that you normally read about.
> 
> In Okinawa in 1963 the average life expectancy was between 72 and 73.     http://www.okicent.org
> 
> ...



I guess it obvious this quoter and the last few have not read the book... The stats in the study support your statement above, it is a style based finding more aimed at Japanese mainland and Western lifespans  - the effects in Okinawa were intriguing in a few different ways. And the data has no one way to broadly sum it up without getting specific - it simply is more complex than that - hence the 200+ citations used to formulate the hypotheses.

Also the gist of much of this thread over focuses on Sanchin's breathing - sanchin is merely one chapter in the book and there it focuses on the fact there are 2 more common variants of sanchin across karate, one which touts a heavy health focus (which, according to the data, seems to not be harmful or helpful  (look at Miyagi's and Mabuni's [2 of perhaps the most famous regular sanchin practising masters] low ages of death as two examples - but again be careful about singling out individuals without factoring sparring practices and other things... This is backed up by recent medical studies cited in the book on breathing in stress and health therapy & yoga etc). The other version of sanchin kata, which is a theme in a few styles, does not focus on health but instead budo, & the core of that version is also broken down and physiologically analysed. 

So the speculation going on here re the contents of the book is very unspecific due to lack of research/reading by the posters....


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## K-man (Jan 14, 2014)

llbark said:


> I guess it obvious this quoter and the last few have not read the book... The stats in the study support your statement above, it is a style based finding more aimed at Japanese mainland and Western lifespans  - the effects in Okinawa were intriguing in a few different ways. And the data has no one way to broadly sum it up without getting specific - it simply is more complex than that - hence the 200+ citations used to formulate the hypotheses.
> 
> Also the gist of much of this thread over focuses on Sanchin's breathing - sanchin is merely one chapter in the book and there it focuses on the fact there are 2 more common variants of sanchin across karate, one which touts a heavy health focus (which, according to the data, seems to not be harmful or helpful  (look at Miyagi's and Mabuni's [2 of perhaps the most famous regular sanchin practising masters] low ages of death as two examples - but again be careful about singling out individuals without factoring sparring practices and other things... This is backed up by recent medical studies cited in the book on breathing in stress and health therapy & yoga etc). The other version of sanchin kata, which is a theme in a few styles, does not focus on health but instead budo, & the core of that version is also broken down and physiologically analysed.
> 
> So the speculation going on here re the contents of the book is very unspecific due to lack of research/reading by the posters....


OK, I confess .. I haven't read the book and I have no intention of buying the book. What I did do was find the book on Amazon and read as much as was available. The book creates as many questions as it answers. The author works for Amgen, a drug company that produces an anti inflammatory drug. It also gives research grants. Not to take away from the content of the research but did the company contribute financially to the work? 

I'll mention Sanchin kata as it is mentioned in the above post. The book talks about Sanchin as a number of variants but in the post it points out that Miyagi was one of the guys who died relatively early. Kanryo Higaonna, who was one of those who brought Sanchin to Okinawa from China, also died early at 62. Kanbun Uechi, the other to bring Sanchin back to Okinawa also died relatively early at 71. Yet they practised totally different variations of Sanchin and at greatly different levels of physical intensity. Gogen Yamaguchi practised an even more intense version of Sanchin and lived to 80. On those thoughts you could argue that the harder you practised Sanchin, the longer you live. However, Sanchin is an internal kata as the book points out and most people don't practise it with that in mind. 

The information in the book linking inflammatory conditions to chronic disease states is interesting but nothing much seems to have come of that research in recent times. The demise of Vioxx and questions about Celebrex may have dampened the enthusiasm for research there. As to taking anti inflamatories on a regular basis? Not this little duck. The potential for side effects are way too high for me. But back to chronic inflammatory conditions. Sure, most of us that have been around for a while are carrying multiple injuries. But what of professional footballers? They have far more injuries than the average karateka. Same could probably be said for mountain bikers, and one the biggest causes of injury and death is horse riding, or perhaps not riding as head hits ground. Does kumite play a part? Sport based styles are far more likely to cop injury than the traditional styles that don't spar. So why would it be the case that Okinawan Goju which doesn't spar would be worse than so many others that do?

Please don't be so quick to criticise those of us posting. A book is just one person's opinion. I could well be convinced but nothing I have seen so far suggests to me that training a TMA is likely to reduce my lifespan. By the same token, I don't expect it to increase my lifespan either. What I do expect is for it to produce a higher quality of life for the time I continue to train. 
:asian:


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## seasoned (Jan 14, 2014)

K-man said:


> OK, I confess .. I haven't read the book and I have no intention of buying the book. What I did do was find the book on Amazon and read as much as was available. The book creates as many questions as it answers. The author works for Amgen, a drug company that produces an anti inflammatory drug. It also gives research grants. Not to take away from the content of the research but did the company contribute financially to the work?
> 
> I'll mention Sanchin kata as it is mentioned in the above post. The book talks about Sanchin as a number of variants but in the post it points out that Miyagi was one of the guys who died relatively early. Kanryo Higaonna, who was one of those who brought Sanchin to Okinawa from China, also died early at 62. Kanbun Uechi, the other to bring Sanchin back to Okinawa also died relatively early at 71. Yet they practiced totally different variations of Sanchin and at greatly different levels of physical intensity. Gogen Yamaguchi practiced an even more intense version of Sanchin and lived to 80. On those thoughts you could argue that the harder you practiced Sanchin, the longer you live. However, Sanchin is an internal kata as the book points out and most people don't practise it with that in mind.
> 
> ...



Good points k-man.

IMO, no one dies from breathing since it's been said that "life is in the breath". But, inappropriate breathing techniques can lead to all kinds of complications.


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## llbark (Jan 14, 2014)

Good to see the longer post from you. Just a couple of points of clarification given you raised them.

No, one of the authors does not work at AMGEN (a biotech company with an anti-inflammation drug). One of the authors (Dr Armstrong) did work at AMGEN about 20 years ago, long before that company was involved in selling inflammation drugs. Secondly, there is actually a bias in the book away from prescription drugs and instead the use of selective training and diet - focusing in on what promotes inflammation and what does not. There a couple of chapters on these things related to the data on lifespan and karate's physiological effects.

No it is not one person's opinion, the book is actually a collaboration spanning doctors from University Research and clinical practice (with a total of 6 contributing authors).

In your original quote, and others in this thread, people quote mean life expectancy - this is actually the wrong statistic to analyse in such studies (and the book goes through the basics of understanding that in the first few chapters). This is because mean life expectancy includes all those infants and childhood deaths and that pulls down the average age of death for adults who survive through that period (which obviously all karate masters did). The study does relate to the crude &#8220;mean data&#8221; in every case, but focuses more on the "life expectancy at age of death" statistics in given regions, which compares those that have survived to adulthood to see how long their lives are expected to be compared to others given the variables they encountered after getting through childhood (especially relevant in developing countries and for people born pre-WWII). A common mistake when people grossly try and interpret lifespan...

Also you mentioned that Okinawan Goju is worse than styles that do sparring - this is not in fact what the book stats found (it was different but not that way)...

Finally, I notice there is another thread in this forum on this topic with some interesting observations... http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...ate-and-Shortened-lifespan?highlight=lifespan



K-man said:


> OK, I confess .. I haven't read the book and I have no intention of buying the book. What I did do was find the book on Amazon and read as much as was available. The book creates as many questions as it answers. The author works for Amgen, a drug company that produces an anti inflammatory drug. It also gives research grants. Not to take away from the content of the research but did the company contribute financially to the work?
> 
> I'll mention Sanchin kata as it is mentioned in the above post. The book talks about Sanchin as a number of variants but in the post it points out that Miyagi was one of the guys who died relatively early. Kanryo Higaonna, who was one of those who brought Sanchin to Okinawa from China, also died early at 62. Kanbun Uechi, the other to bring Sanchin back to Okinawa also died relatively early at 71. Yet they practised totally different variations of Sanchin and at greatly different levels of physical intensity. Gogen Yamaguchi practised an even more intense version of Sanchin and lived to 80. On those thoughts you could argue that the harder you practised Sanchin, the longer you live. However, Sanchin is an internal kata as the book points out and most people don't practise it with that in mind.
> 
> ...


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## K-man (Jan 15, 2014)

llbark said:


> Good to see the longer post from you. Just a couple of points of clarification given you raised them.
> 
> No, one of the authors does not work at AMGEN (a biotech company with an anti-inflammation drug). One of the authors (Dr Armstrong) did work at AMGEN about 20 years ago, long before that company was involved in selling inflammation drugs. Secondly, there is actually a bias in the book away from prescription drugs and instead the use of selective training and diet - focusing in on what promotes inflammation and what does not. There a couple of chapters on these things related to the data on lifespan and karate's physiological effects.
> 
> ...


There is a lot in the book that you could query in light go more recent medical evidence. One of the guys quoted in the book is Dr Calib Finch. Now I have no doubt that he is a highly qualified gerontologist but some of the treatments he advocates in this article ... http://books.google.com.au/books?id...Q&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=dr caleb finch%

have been shown to increase the likelihood of cardiovascular events. All I am saying is despite the fact that there is a book out there making an interesting point of view, just because it is in print and just because there is a group of medical scientists proposing their point of view, doesn't mean that what it is saying is gospel.

Now the next interesting question is, what is your connection to this article? I'm intrigued that you would join the forum without introducing yourself, resurrect an old thread and take such a strong position.
:asian:


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## llbark (Jan 15, 2014)

K-man said:


> There is a lot in the book that you could query in light go more recent medical evidence. One of the guys quoted in the book is Dr Calib Finch. Now I have no doubt that he is a highly qualified gerontologist but some of the treatments he advocates in this article ... http://books.google.com.au/books?id...Q&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=dr caleb finch%
> 
> have been shown to increase the likelihood of cardiovascular events. All I am saying is despite the fact that there is a book out there making an interesting point of view, just because it is in print and just because there is a group of medical scientists proposing their point of view, doesn't mean that what it is saying is gospel.
> 
> ...



Just finished reading it in its entirety (after starting it a good while back), hence a relevant post for me today. I am a nurse by training who nowadays works in clinical trials. My stance is simply strong that people are not posting accurate reports/reviews that are informed. The data is what it is, I am not critiquing or taking a stance on its nature here, just stating that if one reads it you see the rigor in the methodology. 

I don't think the authors of the book take a stance either, they state when/what circumstances karate does and does not seem to have an effect, suggest links based on the data compiled and a review of over 200 other publications and then suggest people be aware and ponder these links to tailor there own style/training. It does not suggest to "give up karate" as someone in this thread stated - it is about informed training.

Re your statement on genes, genes only account for about 25% of life expectancy (book reviews that research in depth,as do many other similar books) - but again your statement focuses on Okinawan genes, the study spans, Western and Mainland Japan as well, and different eras

WHO are often more interested in perceiving health/death across a nation, including young & old people in some reports, hence the mean age of death is used in those circumstances. Insurance agencies (life insurance groups placing their bet on what to charge for premiums) and clinical trials for age based studies (trying to work out whether someone should have died at that age, as is the point of this study of karate-ka) use "life expectancy at death". Again because the mean/median age of death is dragged down by infant/child deaths and that is not relevant to karate masters. Very important difference when looking at the data in such arguments.


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## K-man (Jan 15, 2014)

llbark said:


> Just finished reading it in its entirety (after starting it a good while back), hence a relevant post for me today. I am a nurse by training who nowadays works in clinical trials. My stance is simply strong that people are not posting accurate reports/reviews that are informed. The data is what it is, I am not critiquing or taking a stance on its nature here, just stating that if one reads it you see the rigor in the methodology.
> 
> I am not questioning the data, just the interpretation. As a nurse involved in clinical trials you would appreciate my comments on drug information. As this book is quite focused on inflammatory conditions leading to premature death I was interested to see the suggestion that statins might be used to reduce inflammation (not to mention delaying or preventing Alzheimer's). The problem here is that meta analysis shows that patients taking statins, who have never experienced a CV event, are at greater risk of CV events as a result of being on statins. The suggestion that taking NSAIDS to reduce the risk of death from inflammatory conditions is also interesting. A martial artist taking aspirin is not a real option and the long list of side effects from the other NSAIDS would not be a viable option from my point of view. Avandia is another drug suggested as an option and now the FDA is being questioned as to why Avandia was approved in the first place. All I am requesting is a questioning mind. The book makes conclusions that I question, that's all.
> 
> ...


My father died at 40, both my grandfathers died at about 65, two of my cousins died in their early 60's. I am 65. I have about 30 years martial arts training, I've carried joint injuries for years and I've lived with a chronic back injury since my days as a gymnast about 50 years ago. Based on history I am lucky to still be alive. Based on the theory in the book I should have died years ago. 

I suppose I should say goodbye to all my friends here on MT because I could head off the the great training dojo in the sky any time.


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## llbark (Jan 15, 2014)

K-man said:


> My father died at 40, both my grandfathers died at about 65, two of my cousins died in their early 60's. I am 65. I have about 30 years martial arts training, I've carried joint injuries for years and I've lived with a chronic back injury since my days as a gymnast about 50 years ago. Based on history I am lucky to still be alive. Based on the theory in the book I should have died years ago.
> 
> I suppose I should say goodbye to all my friends here on MT because I could head off the the great training dojo in the sky any time.



Again, the drugs you mention above and your opinion of the book's statements on those drugs is wrong (because you haven't read the book). It does mention most of those drugs, reviews the medical literature as it relates them to health/karate and includes surveys on martial artists and their use of aspirin/NASAIDs. They do not broadly state that martial artists should ubiquitously take statins or aspirin - in fact quite the opposite.

You said you list "_included guys that died pre-war" _and the book did look at that cohort, but it focuses on post-war as that is more relevant to today's society (and again, your approx. conclusion aligns with theirs, but you quoted the incorrect statistic to focus on with "mean life expectancy" which includes infants/kids, rather than "life expectancy at age of death"). The differences in eras were intriguing and again it is not about one off peoples but rather averaged means, which allow us to decide "how to stack the odds in our favour or not".


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## K-man (Jan 15, 2014)

llbark said:


> Again, the drugs you mention above and your opinion of the book's statements on those drugs is wrong (because you haven't read the book). It does mention most of those drugs, reviews the medical literature as it relates them to health/karate and includes surveys on martial artists and their use of aspirin/NASAIDs. They do not broadly state that martial artists should ubiquitously take statins or aspirin - in fact quite the opposite.
> 
> You said you list "_included guys that died pre-war" _and the book did look at that cohort, but it focuses on post-war as that is more relevant to today's society (and again, your approx. conclusion aligns with theirs, but you quoted the incorrect statistic to focus on with "mean life expectancy" which includes infants/kids, rather than "life expectancy at age of death"). The differences in eras were intriguing and again it is not about one off peoples but rather averaged means, which allow us to decide "how to stack the odds in our favour or not".


You read the book so perhaps you could enlighten us with some of life's mysteries rather than just saying I am wrong.


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## PhotonGuy (Feb 3, 2014)

Martial arts can sometimes shorten the lifespan due to the high demands it places on the body. Bruce Lee is a good example of that.


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## K-man (Feb 3, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Martial arts can sometimes shorten the lifespan due to the high demands it places on the body. Bruce Lee is a good example of that.


Not sure that Lee is a good example. The cause of his death is at best uncertain. The most likely cause of death would seem to be a reaction to a pain medication that caused cerebral edema. Then again, there may have been other factors unrelated to MAs.
http://www.bruceleedivinewind.com/death.html
:asian:


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