# Crosstraining karate?



## Maiden_Ante (May 12, 2010)

Well, I've been training kase-ha shotokan-ryu for 2 years now and is soon to graduate for 7th kyu. _

I'm not considering another martial art already, this is an early investigation for future preferences!_

Aside from wanting to train a bit more contact-ish (though we are surprisingly closeup, considering I've read about some shotokan students not even being allowed to touch each other, perhaps it's the minor changes made by Taiji Kase, I have no idea to be honest) I think the punching, kicking and throwing works well. I am aware of the big hole though; grappling, arm locks and advanced throwing...

Right next to my dojo there's another one where they train judo twice a week, jiujitsu once a week and kendo or something with swords I was considering to test train there a couple of times in the future when I feel I need to learn more.

Would any of you recommend judo or jiujitsu as a cross training art in contrast to karate? Or would these two be to contradicted to work properly?

Is there any other art that would be good for a karateka to train to complement the gaps?


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## dancingalone (May 12, 2010)

I think judo or jujitsu are excellent complements to karate.  

I have dabbled in judo from time to time and I formally train in aikido in addition to goju-ryu karate.  I find there is a synergy.  The aikido improves my karate immeasurably and my expertise in karate sparks a certain aliveness and energy in myself and others when I work the aikido techniques in pairs.


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## twendkata71 (May 12, 2010)

*It's definetly a plus to crosstrain in Judo and/or Jujitsu in addition to your karate training. And I agree that Aikido is another art that complements karate as well. *


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## seasoned (May 12, 2010)

Which once again points to the fact that all arts are interrelated in some way. Anyways, back to the OP, a grappling art could use some strikes and a striking art could use some grappling. I say focus on one and supplement with the other. Don't study 2 separate arts at the same time. Just my 2 cents.


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## Brandon Fisher (May 12, 2010)

JuJitsu will help you unlock some of the techniques in your Shotokan kata.


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## 72ronin (May 12, 2010)

Brandon Fisher said:


> JuJitsu will help you unlock some of the techniques in your Shotokan kata.


 
This is an important point.  Break down the blocks and there is a plethora of applications there.


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## Brandon Fisher (May 12, 2010)

72ronin said:


> This is an important point. Break down the blocks and there is a plethora of applications there.


Good example thanks for the compliment.


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## repz (May 12, 2010)

I second the comment about kata applications that you can unlock or create with some jujitsu training. You can create some solid bunkai, and see how certain movements can be shoulder throws and arm locks.

Judo will come in handy to open up different ranges of combat, like grappling, and live resistance training (though some jujitsu schools do this as well, but not all). I always felt judo was the go to art to plug in to many arts.


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## scottie (May 13, 2010)

I say go for it. I agree with the kata talk. I would just advise you (from past experience) not to hide it from your karate teacher. Be up front with him. He may not like it and try to make you chose. If you have been with him for two years chances are you have some kind of relationship. Even if he does make you chose he will at lease respect you for telling him what you are going to do. He may not like it but he will respect you. Then again he may start with you. Never know.


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## Maiden_Ante (May 13, 2010)

Brandon Fisher said:


> JuJitsu will help you unlock some of the techniques in your Shotokan kata.



Please explain what you mean. 



			
				scottie said:
			
		

> I say go for it. I agree with  the kata talk. I would just advise you (from past experience) not to  hide it from your karate teacher. Be up front with him. He may not like  it and try to make you chose. If you have been with him for two years  chances are you have some kind of relationship. Even if he does make you  chose he will at lease respect you for telling him what you are going  to do. He may not like it but he will respect you. Then again he may  start with you. Never know



I doubt he'd mind much, one of our 2-dans train thai boxing and have no problem discussing it with us. I don't see it as a big deal, perhaps I'd mention it to him and if he doesn't like it, that's his problem - but of course I have respect for him and wouldn't be "smart about it".



> live resistance training



Now what's that?


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## scottie (May 13, 2010)

Maiden_Ante said:


> I doubt he'd mind much, one of our 2-dans train thai boxing and have no problem discussing it with us. I don't see it as a big deal, perhaps I'd mention it to him and if he doesn't like it, that's his problem - but of course I have respect for him and wouldn't be "smart about it".


 

Cool man Good luck Judo is a Great art wish I could have kept training in it.


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## Brandon Fisher (May 13, 2010)

Maiden_Ante said:


> Please explain what you mean.


 
In Okinawa there is a art within karatedo called Tuite.  Tuite in some aspects are the real techniques karate the ones hidden within the kata.  However that was lost in Japanese Karatedo somewhere along the line after it was brought from Okinawa to the mainland.  As already stated blocking techniques such as chudan uke, jodan uke, shuto uke all contain trapping, locking and breaking applications at the advanced levels.  Of course this is only part of tuite.  

Karate as a whole and taught traditionally contains these techniques:
Basic level (this is what we see the most):
Uchi / Tsuki Waza - Striking and Thrusting Techniques
Geri Waza - Kicking Techniques
Uke Waza - Blocking Techniques

Advanced level:
Kansetsu Waza - joint locking techniques
Shime Waza - Choking and Strangulation techniques
Otoshi waza - takedown techniques
Nage waza - throwing techniques
Ne Waza - ground techniques (not like ju jitsu grappling or wrestling)
Kyusho Jutsu- pressure point / nerve attacks

For example if you do not know what Hikite (pulling hand) is then you need to start researching it.

Ju Jitsu or Ju Jutsu (proper spelling) will help you find those techniques in your kata that you are already learning.

I hope this helps.

Ganbatte!!


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## repz (May 13, 2010)

Maiden_Ante said:


> Now what's that?


 
It means you perform techniques on someone who is resisting, and its done live with no sequence, with no attacker and defender roles. Bascially, sparring, fighting, or doing a 'sport". Its my personal oppinion that live resistance training builds attributes that other form of training cant against people of different sizes and skills.


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## Cirdan (May 14, 2010)

I`ve been training Wado Karate and Ju Jutsu at the same time for several years. I find they compliment each other very well, as long as one is mindful about what one is doing. Same principles at work, different expressions. However I should add that taking two arts at the same time works best if you have plenty of time to train.

And yes, you are likely to discover new applications for kata, I know I have.


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## Maiden_Ante (May 14, 2010)

Wowzie, thanks for the replies!



> For example if you do not know what Hikite (pulling hand) is then you  need to start researching it.



I can proudly say that I _do _know what that is. 



> In Okinawa there is a art within karatedo called Tuite.  Tuite in some  aspects are the real techniques karate the ones hidden within the kata.   However that was lost in Japanese Karatedo somewhere along the line  after it was brought from Okinawa to the mainland.  As already stated  blocking techniques such as chudan uke, jodan uke, shuto uke all contain  trapping, locking and breaking applications at the advanced levels.  Of  course this is only part of tuite.



I'm kind of re-viewing my training in the back of my head right now. I know that both of our sensei (father and son from Yugoslavia) almost always takes up the "meaning" of the moves in the kata. In what kind of situation we could do this or that, and some times we do the thing where you block/attack each other using the techniques from the kata (is it called _bunkai?_). I kinda liked the opening move in _Heian nidan_.



> It means you perform techniques on someone who is resisting



Aha, so that's it. We aren't like some automaton-dojos who seem to think that the best way to learn fighting is to not fight at all... but I absolutely see your point, that could be something to work more on, but I must still say that we are always encouraged to do it as realistic as possible.

I must say; thanks for all the answers.


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## Grenadier (May 14, 2010)

Training in two arts at the same time can work very well, and what you learn in one can certainly help you advance faster in the other.  

I train in Shotokan Karate and Yamanni Ryu Kobudo.  Although the two systems are significantly different (empty hand vs. weapons, etc.), I've found that my training in the Yamanni Ryu kobudo has made my Karate techniques flow more easily, and that the relaxation of the upper body has become much easier when training in Karate.  

On the flip side, the knowledge of Karate has helped me avoid some mistakes that many new folks in the kobudo training might make, since I've always been taught that two techniques done in succession are still two techniques, and that each one must be its own separate, meritious technique, or else you end up having two questionable techniques.  

When looking at those training in Yamanni Ryu our dojo, I see some folks just starting who are of intermediate ranking in Karate, trying to copy what they might have seen on Youtube, Google Videos, or even some who bought Oshiro sensei's "Yamanni Ryu, vol 1" video.  When people try to mimic his advanced technique without understanding the individual techniques involved, it ends up looking rather ugly and ineffective. 

For example, the classical strike + pulling block combination is one of the bread and butter staples of the kobudo system, yet some people try to rush through the strike just to finish the block more quickly.  As a result, they might be able to get a decent block in, but what about the strike?  

Those who are advanced students, and begin their kobudo training, tend to make this mistake on a much less frequent basis, since they have  a better understanding of how to get flowing techniques without compromising each individual technique.


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## Victor Smith (May 14, 2010)

In the early 1060s CW Nicole went to Japan to continue his study of Judo. He ended up living in a MA halfway house of Don Draegers, and in addition to his Judo began the study of Shotkan. As that study became more advanced his time to continue to play Judo cut back and one day one of his Shotkan seniors explained to him he was drawing himself too thin and likely not making the progress he should be making in either art. Reluctantly he discontinued the study of Judo.

IMO it is possible to cross train but it is best to wait till youve accomplished something say sho-dan in one art so you have some skill to work with in your original art, as you begin playing with something else.

It should only be done with the support of your instructor. If youre dissatisfied with your instructors art you should not be looking for cross training but instead leaving that instructor to start over.

You will find, whatever you can pick up. Unless you have unlimited time you will only get a small slice of that other art, and whether it can be an enhancement to that original art will depend on decades of additional training in both arts to see if it works.

No art has instant answers, and it is a dangerous trap to listen to the grab something here, and then grab something there and you create something new.

I find any art takes decades of serious work to understand its potential. Perhaps youre not seeing what you want in your current art because your instructor doesnt feel youre ready. The truth is many of us are never really ready for some advanced training, those studies might exist only for the truly gifted. That doesnt make your training less valuable, but just realistic.

Fortunately or unfortunately I have spent a great deal of time with many other instructors, but never losing my focus on my primary training.  I know how much you can get or cant get, and then working for a decade or two you begin to find it was already in your original art. An example comes from understanding how much aikido is really in your kata, but it takes time to develop to a training program to effect such studies. Again back to you have to be ready for advanced training potential.

And advanced to one is beginning to another, but that just means other things are reversed.

Personally I prefer the older Okinawan approach of not naming much about your art and keeping the training most private.

Good luck,


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## dancingalone (May 14, 2010)

Hi, Victor.  Thanks for the post (I read your articles on your blog from time to time, too).

I practice a Okinawan system too, but I disagree with your statement below.  I'm in favor of as much transparency as possible if only to make the general public aware of what is available to study.  I myself studied a relatively simple system as my first art in my teens.  Although it was effective in training the body for self-defense, I found myself frustrated with certain 'missing' instruction and I eventually left, traveling and studying a number of systems.  I eventually gravitated to Goju-ryu and am very content with my choice, since my teacher is very knowledgeable and sharing.  I'm very much aware however that there are those studying Goju-ryu nominally yet they're not being exposed to even an eighth of what I learned.  To me, that's a shame.

Personally I prefer the  older Okinawan approach of not naming much about your art and keeping  the training most private.


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## Brandon Fisher (May 14, 2010)

I am glad you know what hikite is thats a step in the right direction.  Tuite is not bunkai though it can be found in the bunkai.  Bunkai is the interpertation of kata, literally means the break down.


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## Victor Smith (May 14, 2010)

It's certianly true that all instructors are not equal in knowlege and ability. On the other hand it's difficult to know what someone knows for you can only see what is in the status of their current students abilities.

Some instruction does take many years to acquire and even then not because of the years but if the student can take the time to pursue a deep enough level of training to actuate the skill.  I realize that's not popular, but teaching for decades has shown me there are no short cuts.

In the issue of not naming your art, we live in a time where too many names are grabbed for everything and naming restricts potential. if you buy a kata movement as a bunkai for beginning, intermediate and advanced students you've locked it down to 3 applications. But any movement may have dozens of application potentials to drop an opponent, and by naming the 3, you leave out the 50.

On the other hand if the instructor develops the students potential when they're correctly developed, they learn the principles and the techniques and open the door for unilimited possiblities. Which is likely not an Okinawan answer, but still is real.

As i've been trained with serious instructors and try to be one myself, it takes 4 or 5 years before a new adult students is ready to begin application potential study in depth. Then many more years before skill and knowledge give much more. Newer students are exposed only to that portion they are ready to execute.

Not because I try to hold back (I actually often fo too fast) but because of the reality of their ablity, which takes time to craft.

I don't teach short study, I don't teach name the movements, I only teach karate as the student grows, and I find our depth enough that they're not looking elsewhere.

I only wish all the best, but try in turn to describe what I would hope would become the idea.

pleasantly,


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## dancingalone (May 14, 2010)

Victor Smith said:


> Some instruction does take many years to acquire and even then not because of the years but if the student can take the time to pursue a deep enough level of training to actuate the skill.  I realize that's not popular, but teaching for decades has shown me there are no short cuts.



Absolutely true.  I can demonstrate certain things that most of my students simply can't duplicate because they have not refined their skills to the extent that I have.  Regardless I still do it and somewhat frequently too.  The reason is I want them to know what is possible and to aspire to reach it.  I don't want to hide it away as 'advanced' material.  



> In the issue of not naming your art, we live in a time where too many names are grabbed for everything and naming restricts potential. if you buy a kata movement as a bunkai for beginning, intermediate and advanced students you've locked it down to 3 applications. But any movement may have dozens of application potentials to drop an opponent, and by naming the 3, you leave out the 50.


I actually do teach formal bunkai as my teacher did to me.  The formal bunkai are gateway illustrations.  To the uninitiated they can appear impressive and innovative, so it's useful to show them as a teaching tool.  At the same time, we stress of course that kata applications are only limited by one's imagination and one's physical skill.  Knowing a few examples given to you by your instructor should not limit a dedicated student from devising 'new' ones for themselves.  

About once or twice a year during our internal seminars, I challenge all my students to demonstrate an application to a certain movement.  I'm exceedingly pleased every time I am shown something I know I did not teach them myself, and this happens frequently enough that I know I am not rooting my students in dogma.


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## Victor Smith (May 14, 2010)

Hi Again,

BTW thanks for you kind comments on my blog. I've taken to putting the ideas there I don't want lost in discussions. I think you're going to find the next post which includes an interesting historical perspective on bunkai.

I come from an era where 'bunkai' didn't exist. In fact my instructors shared exactly what they studied on Okinawa in 59 and 72 and it never included kata application. There are Okinawan traditions that do't teach applications and use different answers. There is not one way.

But in my early years all of the schools I trained with didn't do 'bunkai either'

Bunkai came into use in the early 80's, and one of my friends taught extensive bunkai, but as kakushite (my use of the term hidden hand, not his), where the thousands of applications have absolutely nothing to do with the kata movement they were tied to (for the most part).

It a sense it's an extension to the points made by Shiroma Shimpa on my blog about Itosu's students.  (for the blog search for ISSHIN - CONCENTRATION ART).

So it all depends on our arts and our studies.

I had occaion to  train with the late Sherman Harrill for maybe 60 hours over 8 years, and from my notes I got 800 application studies from Isshinryu's 8 kata (and that was only a piece of his art). Very informative and directed many of my own research, but his student John Kerker had 15+ continuous years and there is where the depth come from.

In depth about 1/2 of the applications are brillant, and the other 1/2 work but you'd never choose to do them, chosing something else. But the key hard work on the last 1/2 are where true skill for fitting into an attack is developed.

Today Isshinryu is my focus but through the lens of Isshinryu I focus many arts Okinawan, Japanese, Indonesian and Chinese I've studied.

The truth is there's an attack and then there's the choice of entry (if your skilled) interior line of defense or exterior line of defense, and then there's the technique, and the most suprising thing is 99.9999% of the time any technique works.

So you really don't need thousands of answers, just skill to insert yourself, and then a lifetime working on those thousands to give you depth and keep your mind and body fresh and focused.


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## Maiden_Ante (May 17, 2010)

Thank you for all of your interesting answers, it has been interesting to read.

FYI I attended a training camp this weekend, and we did some bunkai. I have done this before. As for "breaking down of techniques in kata" I think we did that pretty well.

As for not saying the name of your art - to be honest I thought that sounded kind of stupid. I don't "buy katas" or "buy techniques". The only fees I pay is the training fee so that the dojo can keep running and a small fee for insurance matters.


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