# The Hidden Roots of  Judaism and and Christianity



## elder999 (Jan 21, 2009)

The hidden roots of Judaism and Christianity are in animal sacrifice, human sacrifice, and cannibalism. 

Animal sacrifice is the ritual killing of an animal as part of a religious rite. In many cases, this has evolved into ritual slaughter, the religious rite of killing an animal for consumption, where prayers are said, rather than the animal being part and parcel _of_ the prayer. The reasons behind it taking place are varied across the world and through time. In Judaism, or rather, Hebrew Temple worship, it was often understood that the animal being sacrificed was being offered in the place of the person doing the sacrifice, in recognition that that person should be sacrificed for their sin or wrongdoing. It was a blood atonement.. There is evidence, of course, that human sacrifices also took place in the ancient world.As can be seen in the Old Testament, an animal or animals were often substituted in place of a human. 

From the time of Moses till the time of the prophet Hezekiah, a period of seven hundred years or more, the Hebrews were not necessarily monotheistic, but sometime idolaters, as their records show. The serpent was reverenced as the Healer of the Nation; they worshipped a bull called Apis, as did the Egyptians; they worshipped the sun, moon, stars, and all the hosts of heaven; they worshipped fire, and kept it burning on an altar, as did the Persians and other nations; they worshipped stones, revered an oak-tree, and bowed down to images; they worshipped a virgin mother and child; they worshipped Baal, Moloch, and Chemosh (names given to the sun), and offered up human sacrifices to them, after which, in some instances, _they ate the victims._ 

Apparently, some peoples eventually found the ritual murder of their king or other representative to be repugnant, yet there is also evidence that human sacrifice was probably practiced by the Jews until the time of the Romans, who sought to put an end to it-at least, thats the way some _Roman_ histories tell it. Hebrew rituals, though, from Abraham through the period of Temple worship that ended around 70 A.D. often entailed the ritual sacrifice of animals, though there were commentaries against it. There are many instances of animal and at least one human sacrifice in the Old Testament-as well as stories of cannibalism, and in the New Testament, Jesuss parents sacrifice two doves (Luke 2:21-27) after he is circumcised: 


> 21 And when eight days were fulfilled for circumcising him, his name was called JESUS, which was so called by the angel before he was conceived in the womb.
> 22 And when the days of their purification according to the law of Moses were fulfilled, they brought him up to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord
> 23 (as it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord),
> 24 and to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.


 
and Paul performs a Temple worship ritual, involving sacrifice ("offering") quite a while after Jesuss death (Acts 21:23-26):



> 24 these take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges for them, that they may shave their heads: and all shall know that there is no truth in the things whereof they have been informed concerning thee; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, keeping the law.
> 25 But as touching the Gentiles that have believed, we wrote, giving judgment that they should keep themselves from things sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what is strangled, and from fornication.
> 26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them went into the temple, declaring the fulfilment of the days of purification, until the offering was offered for every one of them.


 
In any case, some Jews and some Christians *still* practice rituals that sacrifice animals. Shortly before Yom Kippur, for example, some orthodox Jews practice the ritual of _Kapparos_, where they hold an object above their heads, pray and ritually transfer their sins to the object as a means of atonement. For many (most) contemporary Jews, the object is money, which is then donated to charity. For others, though, the object is a as it was in the original rite, a _chicken_, which is held by the shoulder blades, prayed over-to symbolically transfer sins- slaughtered, and again, donated to charity-becoming a poor familys pre-Yom Kippur meal.  

Cannibalism. Its an idea that conjures all sorts of thoughts and reactions in human beings around the world. Theres evidence that the Anasazi, the puebloan Indians that inhabited the four corners region from about 500 B.C. to about 1300 A.D., practiced cannibalism at the end of their reign in the area, evidence in the form of human bones from that era that show evidence of preparation for consumption. While its purely speculative evidence, and archaeologists and anthropologists are still lining up on both sides of the issue, the reaction from the Pueblo, Hopi and Navaho communities-all of whom claim at least some distant relation to those ancient people-was immediate and vociferous, and to make the suggestion to some of those people today is to look for a fight, such is the power of the ancient taboo and stigma attached to the very idea of cannibalism.. Back east, the woodland Indians probably made up a variety of myths and legends, like the flesh eating Wendigo, to speak of those times when cannibalism became necessary-one bad winter, a relative might disappear, and one would say, _The wendigo carried them off_, rather than , well, *"we had to eat them"*........on the other hand, the instances of cannibalism that we have record of in the modern era-the famous Andean flight portrayed in the book _Alive!_ for instance-show that the consumption of human flesh for survival takes on religious implications for the individuals who survive, and sometimes even for those who are dying, knowing that they might be consumed. We also see evidence of religious ritual accompanying the practice of cannibalism in those tribal people who still practice it, or for whom the practice is still in cultural memory. We also can see evidence of this theme in the ancient world, not only in the practice of cannibalism per se, but in religious rituals where one consumed the_" body and blood of god."_ 

As repulsive as the notion may seem, it is a fact that "theophagy"--the technical term for the consumption of a _god's _body and blood--has been considered a religious experience worldwide for thousands of years. While certain religions (-_cough!-*Christianity*-cough!-_) may think that they invented the concept of the Eucharist, and that "Holy Communion" has nothing whatsoever to do with cannibalism, the ritual of sacrificing a god or goddess and sharing his or her blood and body as a sacrament is an act found throughout the ancient world. The only thing so-called modern religion has done is to maintain the form of the ritual in a symbolic rather than literal sense. 

_"He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him,"_ so the "founder of Christianity," Jesus, purportedly said. It might seem abhorrent to the Christians of today that one of their most precious rituals actually has its roots in the cannibalistic sacrifice and consumption of their deity. This origin, however, is the fact.

Far from being a Christian invention, rituals similar to what came to be called the Eucharist have been practiced for millennia by various cults and sects around the globe. Initially, thousands of years before the Christian myth was established, an actual human being, acting as proxy for the deity worshipped, was sacrificed and eaten by the cult's followers. In some cases, more than one person was killed and consumed in this matter. This behavior went on throughout the ancient world, and the words regarding this act--_"For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed."_ etc.- attributed to Jesus were generally part of the ritual

As we know, in Christianity the theophagous act is now purely symbolic, and Jesus is the primary human sacrifice, but it was not always this way in the predecessor religions that contributed to the formation of Christianity. No matter how far away from it we wish to get, theophagy used to signify the actual dismemberment and consumption of a human being. The Eucharist has its roots in a cannibalistic act, plain and simple.


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## tellner (Jan 21, 2009)

*Animal sacrifice?* Yep.

*YHVH as the first but not only god?* Yep, for quite a while.

*Human sacrifice?* For Christians, certainly a symbolic version. But the evidence for human sacrifice among the Jews only comes from Roman sources. The Romans tended to accuse everyone they conquered of it that sort of thing from the Keltoi to the Germans to the Egyptians.


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## CoryKS (Jan 21, 2009)

We find the accused guilty... of being delicious!


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## elder999 (Jan 21, 2009)

tellner said:


> *Human sacrifice?* For Christians, certainly a symbolic version. But the evidence for human sacrifice among the Jews only comes from Roman sources. The Romans tended to accuse everyone they conquered of it that sort of thing from the Keltoi to the Germans to the Egyptians.


 
Actually, in Genesis we have Abraham being told by God to offer his son, Isaac, as a burnt offering. Then, of course,at the last minute, God takes it back (psych!)



> After these things God tested Abraham, and said to him, &#8216;Abraham!&#8217; And he said, &#8216;Here am I.&#8217; He said, &#8216;Take your son, _your only son Isaac_, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering upon one of the mountains of which I shall tell you&#8217;." Genesis 22:1-2


 
Then, later we have Jepthah actually sacrificing his daughter, due to a promise he made God, in Judges:



> "At that time the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah, and he went throughout the land of Gilead and Manasseh, including Mizpah in Gilead, and led an army against the Ammonites. And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD. He said, "If you give me victory over the Ammonites, *I will give to the LORD the first thing coming out of my house to greet me when I return in triumph. I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering.*"
> 
> "So Jephthah led his army against the Ammonites, and the LORD gave him victory. He thoroughly defeated the Ammonites from Aroer to an area near Minnith &#8211; twenty towns &#8211; and as far away as Abel-keramim. Thus Israel subdued the Ammonites. When Jephthah returned home to Mizpah, his daughter &#8211; his only child &#8211; ran out to meet him, playing on a tambourine and dancing for joy. When he saw her, he tore his clothes in anguish. "My daughter!" he cried out. "My heart is breaking! What a tragedy that you came out to greet me. For I have made a vow to the LORD and cannot take it back." And she said, "Father, you have made a promise to the LORD. You must do to me what you have promised, for the LORD has given you a great victory over your enemies, the Ammonites. But first let me go up and roam in the hills and weep with my friends for two months, because I will die a virgin." "You may go," Jephthah said. And he let her go away for two months. She and her friends went into the hills and wept because she would never have children. When she returned home, *her father kept his vow, and she died a virgin.* - Judges 11:29-40


 

There is, of course, more...... while I don't mean to conjure up the old "blood libel," and I'm well aware of the Abrahamic taboo against human sacrifice, it's worth pointing out that the taboo didn't come about in a vacuum. If something has a prohibition against it, then it surely took place prior to the prohibition, if not after.

And, in fact, while "the Lord" orders that all first born males are _consecrated_ to Him (widely read as "sacrificed") the consecration that actually takes place is a Temple offering, an animal sacrifice made in the child's stead-in the case of Jesus, 2 doves.....


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## Tez3 (Jan 22, 2009)

Elder I'm not sure which congregation you have seen rasing chickens or money above their heads on Yom Kippur but it's not one I've ever heard of. The ceremony is that of casting bread upon the waters, this signifies the casting away of our sins after repentance. I've never heard of anywhere using anything else. The Kol Nidre service is one of the most beautiful things I know. 
I think you should bear in mind that Jewish law and custom has evolved and continues to evolve so that what was law once isn't always law now. Much of what was once law and custom is now history and treated as such by Jews. Christians may use everything in the Bible but we don't.
The blood libel is a nasty and dangerous thing and has cost many many lives.
The human race started as 'savages', all of us, some have moved on others haven't, to use what is thousands of years in our past against us now is unfair. As Tellner says too, human sacrifice among Jews is hearsay nothing more. The Romans also said it about the Celts, the Gauls etc etc. To the Jewish people this is history and/or allegory, stories to teach ignorant people. I don't know either why you say it's hidden, it isn't it's there for anyone to read. This increasingly sounds like an attack on Judaism and I'd be interested to know why? 

http://www.boston.com/news/local/ar..._bread_on_the_water_nourishes_a_congregation/

http://www.jewfaq.org/holiday4.htm


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## elder999 (Jan 22, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Elder I'm not sure which congregation you have seen rasing chickens or money above their heads on Yom Kippur but it's not one I've ever heard of. The ceremony is that of casting bread upon the waters, this signifies the casting away of our sins after repentance. I've never heard of anywhere using anything else. The Kol Nidre service is one of the most beautiful things I know.


 
Well, I'm not talking about the Kol Nidre, Irene. I called it by name, _kapparos_; I explained when (the _eve_ of Yom Kippur), why and how it was done, and I said that all Jews don't do it. It takes place in certain Orthodox communities, just as I've described, and it's become quite controversial in New York and Jerusalem-mostly from people who say it's "cruelty to animals."

You can read about it, and see some more, fairly *graphic* photos in _ArutzSheva_ at IsraelNationalNews.com

I personally don't care one way or the other. Beyond the fact of it taking place, it's none of my business how people pray, as long as it doesn't hurt other _people_. 

Hell, it's rather tame compared to what I've personally seen some _voudon_ people do with a chicken....



Tez3 said:


> This increasingly sounds like an attack on Judaism and I'd be interested to know why?


 

Because people-as in you and me-are touchy about certain things, and sometimes when they don't like what they hear, they think it's an attack, even when it's just a statement of fact? I mean, I dunno why it seems that way to _you_, but I'm sorry if, as the bearer of bad news, I've offended you. Sorry, but I didn't make it up.......


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 22, 2009)

elder999 said:


> The hidden roots of Judaism and Christianity are in animal sacrifice, human sacrifice, and cannibalism.


 Can I presume this is an at continuation of the now defunct Islam thread?


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## elder999 (Jan 22, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> Can I presume this is an at continuation of the now defunct Islam thread?


 
Pretty sure you're the only one who's mentioned Islam. 

_Don't get peanut butter on my chocolate..._ :lol:


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## Tez3 (Jan 22, 2009)

Elder, I didn't say you were making it up, in over fifty years of being Jewish I know no one who does that and reading the article you posted the link to you missied the most important point, it said it was *Kabbalists *who had 'revived' this thing. If you look at the clothing of the people,their demeanor etc you'll find they aren't orthodox or ultra orthodox but those of the Madonna ilk who have taken to the Kabbal as if it's some magic thing that will save them. They also sell 'holy' water and red bracelets which give protection. it's as Jewish as Scientology is Christian but hey it's a stick to beat us with...Jews cruel to chickens....that'll lead to the blood libel.... Jews eat children. That'll cost a few more lives then. 

Sensitive, damn right I am, my mother lost her entire family to the Nazis who chose to believe the blood libel, I spend my spare time doing Op Wideawake checks on our local synagogue and schools because people want to kill the congregation and the teachers and pupils, thats not an inconvienient fact I don't want to face, it's what life is like for Jewish communities in many places now. for you it's an amusing discussion on the internet, for me it's not.


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## elder999 (Jan 22, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Elder, I didn't say you were making it up, in over fifty years of being Jewish I know no one who does that and reading the article you posted the link to you missied the most important point, it said it was *Kabbalists *who had 'revived' this thing. If you look at the clothing of the people,their demeanor etc you'll find they aren't orthodox or ultra orthodox but those of the Madonna ilk who have taken to the Kabbal as if it's some magic thing that will save them. They also sell 'holy' water and red bracelets which give protection. it's as Jewish as Scientology is Christian but hey it's a stick to beat us with...Jews cruel to chickens....that'll lead to the blood libel.... Jews eat children. That'll cost a few more lives then.


 
Actually, the only mention of "Kabbalists" in the article is bolded below:



> Rabbi Yosef Karo, in the _Shulchan Aruch_, his major work on Jewish law, wrote that the custom should not be performed and warned that it had parallels to polytheistic rites. Rabbi Moses Isserles, the _Ramah_, author of a major commentary on Karo&#8217;s work, disagrees, saying the practice is an ancient custom and should not be changed. *Kabbalists such as Rabbi Yitzchak Luria of Tzfat were said to have embraced the custom and attached deep mystical significance to it. Other Kabbalists, such as the Ramban (Nachmanides), were opposed to the ritual as well.*


 
So we see that even Kabbalists have been on either side of it, but it's not a practice that's confined to the "Madonna red-string bracelet" set.

There's plenty of evidence for this taking place-and having taken place for a long time-in Orthodox communities throughout the world-in some they use plants, or geese where they don't have chickens. It's happened in New York City at least since I lived there as a very small child, 40 or more years ago.

And far be it from me to suggest that you learn more about the nuances and various flavors of your own faith, Irene, but you can read more about it on the virtual Jewish Library of the American-Israeli cooperative or elsewhere if you like, but you might do a little more research, instead of just jumping to all sorts of conclusions in an effort to discredit it.


I mean, I was raised a Christian, and still know lots and lots and lots of Christians, and have Christian relatives-some of them Pentacostals, but I've never met a Pentacostal that handled poisonous snakes and drank cyanide. Doesn't mean that there aren't any, 'cause there are.....



Tez3 said:


> for you it's an amusing discussion on the internet, for me it's not.


 
Interesting that my references to cannibalism, human sacrifice and the Eucharist aren't seen as such an "attack on Christianity".

It's an _interestng_ discussion, not necessarily _amusing_, but you'd probably also do well to remember that it's only the Internet. What's true is true, and not necessarily an attack, though I can see how you might view it that way, and I understand your distress. I've apologized for that all I can, but I'm not going to deny the very clear truth of it-I'm not even saying it's a *bad* thing.


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## tellner (Jan 22, 2009)

Tez, the chicken ceremony is universal among the Charedi and nearly so among the Orthodox.


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## Tez3 (Jan 22, 2009)

So apart from pointing out a few weirdos waving chickens around and being condescending to me about learning more about my religion is there really a point to all this?

People don't see that it's an attack on Christianity as it doesn't cost lives. In Gaza and the Middle East the blood libel is repeated often and believed. As it is in Russia nd a fair few other places. hat message is also spread on the internet. As your posts are now on the internet for anyone to see, it adds to the 'evidence' people use against us. paranoid? perhaps but even paranoid people have enemies.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=15098


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## elder999 (Jan 22, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> So apart from pointing out a few weirdos waving chickens around and being condescending to me about learning more about my religion is there really a point to all this?


 
Well, it supports my basic thesis: that Jewish *and* Christian rituals have their roots in controversial practices, and that some of those practices still take place among some adherents.  I wouldn't call them weirdos, any more than I would snake-handlers or voodoun practitioners.

I didn't mean to be condescending, though, I'll admit, sometimes I can't help but come across that way. It *is* apparent that you weren't aware of something that is fairly commonly known.

Otherwise, why does there "have to be a point to all this?"


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## CanuckMA (Jan 22, 2009)

Kapparos is nowhere near 'fairly common'. You cite Rammah and Ramban, you are aware that thse are old, right?

Judaism encompasses a wide range of practices. That using a chicken for Kapparos happens by precious few, and is condemned by everybody else should give you a clue. And yes, I too am offended by your posts. When my entire family, both my side and my wife's, sit down for a Seder, and there is only a dozen of us, it is a reminder of what 'information' like that can do.

I grew up in a predominently Xtian neighbourhood in the 60s. And it was most prident to not be too visible around Easter because of what was being said about 'the Jews' in churches. 

I agree with Tez. I don't quite see the point of your thread.


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## elder999 (Jan 22, 2009)

CanuckMA said:


> Kapparos is nowhere near 'fairly common'. You cite Rammah and Ramban, you are aware that thse are old, right?


 
So are Genesis and Leviticus-fairly old, that is.Doesn't make them any less or more valid, especially to some.

I said "fairly commonly _known_." See below.




CanuckMA said:


> Judaism encompasses a wide range of practices. That using a chicken for Kapparos happens by precious few, and is condemned by everybody else should give you a clue.


 
Christianity encompasses a wide range of practices. Snake handling and flagellation among them. That they are done by a few, and condemned by many, doesn't make them wrong or invalid, just different. In fact, *I* certainly haven't made any judgements or pronouncements about _kapparos_; I've merely pointed out that it happens in some Jewish communities, just as snake handling, flagellation, speaking in tongues, and, yes, _*animal sacrifices*_ occur in some Christian communities. All somewhat in the minority, all odd to others, all equally valid expressions of prayer to _those who use them_.

In fact, the only people who seem to see any negative connotation to this admittedly controversial ritual are you and Tez3. I've already said that, except for the fact of it, _it's none of my business one way or the other,_ and that, perhaps, is another point.

I'm not even going to get into some of the ceremonies and rituals I participate in, but the reaction to one of them-_even from my wife_-is that it's "cruel and barbaric...." in part because *it is*.



CanuckMA said:


> And yes, I too am offended by your posts. When my entire family, both my side and my wife's, sit down for a Seder, and there is only a dozen of us, it is a reminder of what 'information' like that can do.
> 
> I grew up in a predominently Xtian neighbourhood in the 60s. And it was most prident to not be too visible around Easter because of what was being said about 'the Jews' in churches.
> 
> I agree with Tez. I don't quite see the point of your thread.


 
Here's an article on the practice, and its controversy, in the New York Times:



> The tradition, which is also practiced in Israel, consumes tens of thousands of chickens each year in Brooklyn.


 
That's a lotta chickens for just a "few weirdos."

I grew up in pretty mixed neighborhoods in the 60's and 70's-though, when we moved to Westchester in 1968 we were the only "black" family for years and years. In any case, there were several Jewish families on the block, and, for the most part, we all got along. A few of the families had daughters my sister's age, and they all played together-we all got together for _their_ holidays, and they came to our house for Christmas *and* Easter-not just the kids, but the parents as well. Mind you, my dad was an Episcopal priest, and all the parents viewed it as an exercise in education and tolerance for their kids. 

Sorry you're offended. Maybe you should tell the communities that use this practice to stop doing it.


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## elder999 (Jan 22, 2009)

_Santeria_ is a syncretic religion that combines aspects of Yoruban religious practices brought to the Americas by slaves, Native American beliefs and practices, and Catholicism. While the worship of saints from which it derives its name was once something of a disguise for the non-Christian portions of the religion, this is no longer the case, and most practitioners consider themselves devout Catholics.

In many of their rituals, which are related to what some call voodoo, or, more properly , _voudoun_ (in fact, some would argue that Santeria is a Latinized version of the same belief system) they sacrifice animals: chickens, goats, lambs, geese&#8230;..

In Africa, the Catholic church permits animal sacrifice to take place within the church as part of the inculation procedure for converts. The Archdiocese views the practice as accommodating paying respect to the converts ancestors.

There have been more than a few court cases in the U.S., relating to Santeria, animal sacrifice, and cruelty to animals. In New York, the practice pretty much became legal in the late 90&#8217;s. I&#8217;m not so sure about the outcome of the Texas cases, or if there has been a decision yet. In any case, it&#8217;s an example of a&#8221; Christian&#8221;-or what some will insist is a _quasi_-Christian ritual use of animals, and one that is finding the same protection under the law in the U.S. as the _kapparot_.


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## CanuckMA (Jan 22, 2009)

elder999 said:


> So are Genesis and Leviticus-fairly old, that is.Doesn't make them any less or more valid, especially to some.


 
You do understand the concept of practices changing, don't you?




> . In fact, *I* certainly haven't made any judgements or pronouncements about _kapparos_; I've merely pointed out that it happens in some Jewish communities,


 
The fact of digging up an arcane, marginalized prctice bring into questions your motives.

[/quote]



> In fact, the only people who seem to see any negative connotation to this admittedly controversial ritual are you and Tez3.


 
Both Tez and myself have similar background. That background makes us sensitive to people deliberately, and for no reason, trying comment on sometihing like Kapporos like it was common practice.  



> I've already said that, except for the fact of it, _it's none of my business one way or the other,_ and that, perhaps, is another point.


 
Then why bring it up?



> Here's an article on the practice, and its controversy, in the New York Times:
> 
> The tradition, which is also practiced in Israel, consumes tens of thousands of chickens each year in Brooklyn.
> 
> That's a lotta chickens for just a "few weirdos."


 
Tens of thousands of chicken, in Brooklin alone? for Kapporos?  It's nice to se that the NYT still adheres to hard journalistic integrity. 

That Jews in Brooklin consume tens of thousand of chickens on the eve of Yom Kippur, I don't doubt. It's the traditional meal before the fast. That a ew hundreds are used for Kaporros would be more appropriate.


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## elder999 (Jan 22, 2009)

CanuckMA said:


> You do understand the concept of practices changing, don't you?


 
I understand perfectly.You should ask those that are practicing this ritual that question. 





CanuckMA said:


> The fact of digging up an arcane, marginalized prctice bring into questions your motives.


 

My only motive is to foster discussion like this one we're having-no more and no less. I haven't said the practice is bad-though I've recognized its inherent controversy. I haven't said the practice is weird. I haven't attached any negative connotations to it. I've posted about animal sacrifice in the Christian world-again, in line with the theme of my original post. I've apologized for offending you, but I'm not going to take back one thing that I've posted; it's all true, it's all factual, and it's all supported. If you have a beef with this ritual,like I said, you need to talk to the people who are doing it, not me. *I don't* have a beef with it-in fact, I think it's great that the chickens get eaten by the poor, instead of left to rot or buried like the santeros do....



CanuckMA said:


> Both Tez and myself have similar background. That background makes us sensitive to people deliberately, and for no reason, trying comment on sometihing like Kapporos like it was common practice.


 
Everything I've read says that for some Orthodox Jews, it's a common practice. Everything I've posted has made it clear that it's *not* something that all Jews do. I've already posted my reason. Again, sorry you're offended-talk to Rabbi Hecht, in Brooklyn.:lol:

You can write him here:

Rabbi Shea Hecht 
Chairman NCFJE, 824 Eastern Parkway, Brooklyn, NY 11213

Or on his blog

Here's a brief bio:



> Rabbi Shea Hecht is the chairman of the National Committee for Furtherance of Jewish Education. He is a Rabbi and activist in the Jewish community who has received awards by both government and private organizations for his work in fostering racial harmony. Shea was a member of Mayor Giuliani&#8217;s task force on police/community relations and a Commissioner of Human Rights for the New York City. Shea's expertise is family crisis intervention and as a community liaison to government agencies. His articles are printed in many prominent periodicals, including The Jerusalem Post and The Jewish Week.


 
Doesn't sound marginal, arcane, or weird to me......no more than any other, anyway....





CanuckMA said:


> Then why bring it up?


 
Why *not* bring it up? As I've said, it supports the theme of my original post. I certainly didn't bring it up to offend anyone, or to say anything derogatory about the practice itself, or Jews in general-*and I haven't, have I?*



CanuckMA said:


> Tens of thousands of chicken, in Brooklin alone? for Kapporos? It's nice to se that the NYT still adheres to hard journalistic integrity.
> 
> That Jews in Brooklin consume tens of thousand of chickens on the eve of Yom Kippur, I don't doubt. It's the traditional meal before the fast. That a ew hundreds are used for Kaporros would be more appropriate.


 

And in Toronto you'd know this _how_?:lol:

From the article:



> Now the Brooklyn rabbis arrange for local slaughtering, *which takes hours based on the sheer volume of chickens. &#8220;We&#8217;re still out there, still koshering the chicken,&#8221; Rabbi Hecht said early Wednesday.*
> 
> City Room asked if multiple people could use the same chicken before it was killed, as a strategy to reduce the *volume of chicken carcasses*. Yes, he said, but then explained, &#8220;In today&#8217;s world when a chicken doesn&#8217;t cost that much money, people are like, &#8216;I can afford my own chicken.&#8217; &#8221;
> 
> ...


 

And, from another article:



> The Brooklyn-based Jewish organization slaughters *about 4,000 chickens*


 

Tens of thousands? Four thousand? I don't know; I'm not there. Ask the rabbi. I'd say if the four seems more likely, it doesn't make the ten any less likely. A good indication would probably be the number of adherents in that particular rabbi's community. Since it's in Crown Heights, neither number is completely unrealistic.

From The New York Post



> Earlier this month, a group of about a dozen respected rabbis met to look at the evidence of trouble. Afterward, they called for an upgrade of the process, including how the birds are trucked in, where they are held before the ritual, and how they are slaughtered.
> "It's not going to be stopped," said Isaac Abraham, a Hasidic community activist. "We have to make sure everything is done in a proper way."
> *Abraham said that at least 50,000 chickens are used in ceremonies across Brooklyn. *


 
I mean, you do realize that over 2.5 million people live in Brooklyn, and about 25% of those are Jewish of one sort or another? 

Here's an advert. for kapparos in Houston:

And here's one in _*Toronto*_:



> *ANNUAL KAPAROS PROGRAM *An opportunity to use live chickens for Kapparos.Â Takes place in the Ohel Sarah Shul Succah.Â Men, women & children are welcome.Â Special treats for children.


 
While it may not be an across the board mainstream practice, it apparently is-denials to the contrary-something that is practiced in several, legitimate Orthodox communities. *That's not my fault.*


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## Mr.Pittbull (Jan 22, 2009)

This whole topic for these forums seems a kinda out of place, but whatever you know. I can say as a Christian that I'm not offended at you bringing this up I am fully aware that there are people in this world that do some *crazy* things in the name of "God",as a Christian I can't answer for things that other Christians do like sacrificing a human (which is out and out murder) or animals, which is clearly outlined that we dont have to do any more because of the ultimate sacrifice which was Jesus. 

      Addressing the two accounts in scripture you pointed out.
 1) Abrahams faith was tested by God, He never intended for Abraham to kill Issac, but he really put Abrahams heart to the test. God found him faithful. 
2) Jephthah taught us a lesson that can still be understood today. As it was custom in his day generals would often offer up a sacrifice to God. Jephthahs pain was more than alluded to for having to sacrifice his only daughter do to his pious but unwise pledge. The lesson is be careful when we're in a situation and we try to barter with God.(That is, however, beside the point.)
 I wouldnt say weather we be Jew or Christian our roots are in human sacrifice (Deut. 12:31), animal yes but not human. I know there are crazies our there but they obviously dont follow the same doctrine that Jesus laid down for us, or the one that God laid down for the Jews. 

  I'm not here to argue just wanted to add my two cents in on this and retort with a different view point. Have a blessed day.


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## CanuckMA (Jan 22, 2009)

elder, it may surprise you that I'm immensely more familiar with Orthodox communities than you will ever be. I am part of it. 

You do realize that a infinitisimal number of the Orthodox community do this, and that the Orthodox community in North America is roughly 10% of the total Jewish community. The 'ritual' is now mostly performed as a way to donate food for the needy at our most Holy festival. 

You come at it with a 'look at what Jews are still doing today' attitude. 

Before you try to criticize, inform yourself. And newspaper articles are not the best of sources.


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## elder999 (Jan 22, 2009)

CanuckMA said:


> You do realize that a infinitisimal number of the Orthodox community do this, and that the Orthodox community in North America is roughly 10% of the total Jewish community. The 'ritual' is now mostly performed as a way to donate food for the needy at our most Holy festival.


 
Well, let's see then. If 25% of Brooklyn is Jewish, that's about 750,000 people. (Based on the 2.5 million being from the 2000 census, and having grown.)

10% of those would make the Orthodox 75,000 people. Call it 62, 500-75,000 (It's actually substantially *more*, but what the heck...)._

That would still be right in line with the *50,000 chickens* claimed in the one article.




CanuckMA said:


> You come at it with a 'look at what Jews are still doing today' attitude.


 
Perhaps, but that's why it's called an _*example*_. I don't have an issue with the practice. Today, yesterday, tomorrow. Animals get killed. Animals get eaten. Sometimes they don't get eaten. _Animals get prayed over._ Animals get killed. Animals get eaten. Sometimes they don't get eaten.

I don't see too much difference.



CanuckMA said:


> Before you try to criticize, inform yourself. And newspaper articles are not the best of sources.


 
Where, exactly, have I *even tried* to "criticize?" Show me, and I'll gladly offer _yet another_ apology.


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## Tez3 (Jan 23, 2009)

Elder,I still don't see the point of this post. I'm aware there are myriads of Christian sects from Quakers to Greek and Russian Orthodox, from Baptists to methodists to Roman Catholics, there's High church, Low church and everything in between but are you aware just how many different groups of Jews there are? There's Sephardi, Askanazi, Othodox, Ultra Orthodox, Modern Orthodox, Progressive Orthodox Reform, Conservative Reform, Liberal Reform, Chasidic ( Polish and Russian and the various groups under different rabbis thereof, at least ten that I can think of off the top of my head) Mizrahi, Lubavitch, Yemenite (both Baladi and Dor Draim),Romaniote, Masorti, Reconstructionist, Jewish Renewal,Humanistic Judaism and many, many more so why do you treat us as if we are all one big group? We all have our views on Judaism and I will tell you know it's unlikely you will ever find even ten Jews who will agree on what it is. It's unlikely that any two communties will share totally the same traditions and ways of doing things. Canuck and I will understand each other perfectly but we won't do or say the same things in services or in how we celebrate High Holydays. it's the way Judaism is. It's not one large religion it,s each small community doing it's thing if you like, that community may belong to a larger group or not. what one group thinks is right may not be what another things is right even down to what is Kosher, the law allows local traditions to prevail so what can be eaten in one place will not be eaten in another. 
So, when you say Orthodox Jews who do you mean? which group of us is supposed to talk to which other group about chicken waving?


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## jarrod (Jan 23, 2009)

tez & elder, you're two of my favorite people on here, please don't scrap


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## punisher73 (Jan 23, 2009)

Elder999 wrote:





> And, in fact, while "the Lord" orders that all first born males are _consecrated_ to Him (widely read as "sacrificed") the consecration that actually takes place is a Temple offering, an animal sacrifice made in the child's stead-in the case of Jesus, 2 doves.....


 
Ummm, no if you read the passages where is says something is consecrated, it means "to make and set apart as holy" to God.  It does not mean to sacrifice something.

The Bible has never condoned _human _sacrifice.  The two passages given to support that are taken out of context and meaning.  In the second one, it has nothing to do with what God wanted it was one man making an improper oath that he didn't need to and then kept it.


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## CanuckMA (Jan 23, 2009)

elder999 said:


> Well, let's see then. If 25% of Brooklyn is Jewish, that's about 750,000 people. (Based on the 2.5 million being from the 2000 census, and having grown.)
> 
> 10% of those would make the Orthodox 75,000 people. Call it 62, 500-75,000 (It's actually substantially *more*, but what the heck...)._
> 
> That would still be right in line with the *50,000 chickens* claimed in the one article.


 


 New york's Jewish population is about 2 million. Brooklyn's is about 500,000. no more than 50,000 are Orthodox. Of those a tiny percentage will perform Kapporos with a live chicken. At this point most will just hold a chicken, say the required blessing and move on to the next. It has become a ritual to fulfill the commandment of charity. Because, unlike the strereotype, there is a significant portion of the Jewish population that lives below the poverty line. Kapporos has become a way to enable those Jews to celebrate our Holiest day with some dignity. Of course the press will focus on the few individuals who overdo it. That sells newspaper.


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## elder999 (Jan 23, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> are you aware just how many different groups of Jews there are?


 
Yes, I am, Tez. I've actually written a paper or two on the subject. One was on the crypto-Jews of New Mexico and Mexico-those are descendents of 15th and 16th century Spanish immigrants who converted to Catholicism during the Inquisition, but kept their Judaism hid-now somewhat openly practicing what survives of their heritage.



Tez3 said:


> so why do you treat us as if we are all one big group?


 
Where have I done that? I'd say, in fact, that only you and CanuckMA have done that.



Tez3 said:


> which group of us is supposed to talk to which other group about chicken waving?


 
None Tez. No one is "supposed to talk" to another about it. I've posted before that it doesn't bother me. The only one it seems to bother is _you_.*I* don't think it's something anyone should "do something about." I didn't ever say that "all Jews" do it. I didn't ever say it was bad. I've offered no judgements-in fact, I only used it as an example to support the main theme of my post, and it was one small paragraph in the entire thing that _you've_ seized upon as a point of contention. Over the course of two pages your combined reactions have ranged from, _No they don't, and you shouldn't say such a thing because the next thing you know, people will say we eat babies,_ to _Well, those are just nutters-kabbalist posers, really_, to _Well, yes, but only a very few...._ to, _Well, it's really just a charity program-a way to put chicken on the tables of poor people._

In fact, the only ones who seem to have any judgement about the practice at all are *you two*, and mostly that judgement seems to be that I shouldn't have brought it up. It's okay to say the Holy Eucharist has its roots in cannibalism and sacrifice-at least, it seems to be based on the number of outraged Catholics posting here. It's okay to say that _santeros_ are Catholics, and sacrifice chickens, goats and lambs to pray and entreat the saints, though, admittedly, it's far too easy for most Catholics and other Christians to distance themselves from the practices, and to even say that they are not Christian in any way. No one has argued that, though-they haven't said anything. You, on the other hand, have seized on one small paragraph in a larger theme and chosen to use it as a subject of contention. The only other member of your tribe that I know to have posted here  pretty much tried to tell you, _Yeah, they do that, Tez._ While I gave the readers digest version, I haven't in any way misrepresented the rite, or passed any judgement against it-in fact, the only things I've had to say were favorable.

Sujects like these are, as evidenced by other posts I've made, more than an idle curiousity. I have a degree in religious studies-it was the first subject I studied in college,more than 30 years ago, now. It's a subject of interest-one that others on this board seem to share from time to time, and I share with them from time to time. It continues to be a "weird hobby" of mine, one of many. While I recognize that such subjects can be charged, and sometimes rattle people's cages, that's never exactly been my intention-I want to have discussions-some just like this one-others maybe not so charged-because my basic beliefs say that as long as it's not hurting a fellow human being, _when people get together and pray, whatever form it takes, it's a *good* thing._ And, if we don't try to know and understand these differences and the roots behind them, they'll only stay "differences" instead of what I believe them to be: different flavors of the same fruit-man's  innate urge to express a connection to something greater than himself, and that's something that I will *always*bring up and ask questions-I have lots, and lots of questions.

Gets me into trouble, sometimes, always has. :lol:

 I'm aware that some of the arguments about kaparos stem from its apparent relationship to Temple worship, and _I have a question_ that's somewhat  related to this thread: there are movements within the Fundamentalist Christian community as well as the Jewish communities to build a third temple in Jerusalem.Should such an event come to pass, do you think it would bring the revival of Temple worship, and animal sacrifice?


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## elder999 (Jan 23, 2009)

CanuckMA said:


> New york's Jewish population is about 2 million. Brooklyn's is about 500,000. no more than 50,000 are Orthodox. Of those a tiny percentage will perform Kapporos with a live chicken..


 
I don't think your numbers are quite right, but I can certainly offer no argument to the rest of your post-nor would I. You don't have to defend the rite to me or anyone else. Nor, for that matter, do I think that you or anyone should.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 23, 2009)

elder999 said:


> Pretty sure you're the only one who's mentioned Islam.
> 
> _Don't get peanut butter on my chocolate..._ :lol:


 I'm aware i'm the only one who has mentioned the amazing coincidence that this continues the line of argument about Christianity and Judaism from the now defunct Islam thread......but just because i'm the only one who has mentioned it, doesn't answer the question.

It's almost as if......this whole thread is a response about the.....ORIGINS of ISLAM!  

Clever.


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## elder999 (Jan 23, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> I'm aware i'm the only one who has mentioned the amazing coincidence that this continues the line of argument about Christianity and Judaism from the now defunct Islam thread......but just because i'm the only one who has mentioned it, doesn't answer the question.


 

How's this then?: _*no.*_


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 23, 2009)

elder999 said:


> How's this then?: _*no.*_


 Ahuh......then may I ask what brought this subject to the forefront of your mind?

Because it kind of seems strange to me that we are going to be able to continue to onslaught on Christianity and Judaism portion of the Islam thread.....while the original discussion of Islam is now side-stepped.......that's certainly convenient. 

Perhaps you're right.....an amazing coincidence that happens to mate chance with fortune. 

Then there's "Is America a 'Christian Nation'" which was a question pulled DIRECTLY from the Islam thread......


Not that it bothers me discussing any of it......but it hardly seems the same since the MAIN part of the conversation has been permanently severed from the topic.


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## elder999 (Jan 23, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> Ahuh......then may I ask what brought this subject to the forefront of your mind?


 
You may indeed.

The wife bought me this book for Christmas. I read it at lunch the other day. It wasn't very good, but it does cover an interest of mine. My family partially owes the growth of our fortunes to an incident of cannibalism that took place in the early 19th century, and, as I've said, _religion_ is an interest of mine itself.



sgtmac_46 said:


> Because it kind of seems strange to me that we are going to be able to continue to onslaught on Christianity and Judaism portion of the Islam thread.....while the original discussion of Islam is now side-stepped.......that's certainly convenient.


 
_Don't get your chocolate on my peanut butter._ :lol:



sgtmac_46 said:


> Then there's "Is America a 'Christian Nation'" which was a question pulled DIRECTLY from the Islam thread......


 
_Hey, you got *my* peanut butter on my chocolate!_ :lfao:



sgtmac_46 said:


> Not that it bothers me discussing any of it......but it hardly seems the same since the MAIN part of the conversation has been permanently severed from the topic.


 
Well, they're clearly different topics. I think the thread you're speaking of is defunct. To bring it up here constitutes thread drift of the worst sort. Again, I'll say "*no*" ; one thing has nothing to do with the other. I've posted my reasons for starting the thread, and my a review of other posts of mine would demonstrate the truth of that. Sorry, you're wrong in this case mac.......


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## CanuckMA (Jan 23, 2009)

Elder,

If you don't get it, then so be it.

You start a thread entitled 'the hidden roots of Judaism and Xtianity' where you phrase it like you have uncovered some deep dark secrets, throwing in animal and human sacrifice and cannibalism. Then you claim that you don't care, it was just a question.

If you can't grasp why Jews get suspicious of such actions, then you know nothing of our communities and history. Our practices are always under attack by some well meaning group of folks, it's not antisemetism, the practices are just barbaric they say. Current popular focii is on ritual slaughter and circumsision. 

Anybody who reads the Bible knows that Judaism had animal sacrifices. Nowhere is there human sacrifice, and 2 out of context quotes does not a proof make. There is also nothing to substantiate that Holy Eucharist is rooted in cannibalism. 

Try coming at it another way. Ask questions instead of spouting specious facts.


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## elder999 (Jan 23, 2009)

CanuckMA said:


> Elder,
> 
> If you don't get it, then so be it.


 
I get it-you've been persecuted and oppressed in the past, and have every reason to be wary of it happening again. That's not what I'm doing.




CanuckMA said:


> You start a thread entitled 'the hidden roots of Judaism and Xtianity' where you phrase it like you have uncovered some deep dark secrets, throwing in animal and human sacrifice and cannibalism. Then you claim that you don't care, it was just a question.


 
_Guilty_. Made you look, didn't it, though?

And I don't "claim" that I don't care-I really don't care. I haven't (for the umpteenth time  ) offered any judgement one way or the other.



CanuckMA said:


> . Current popular focii is on ritual slaughter and circumsision.


 
Again, *I* don't care. I'm circumcised, not that you need to know, and I don't think for a minute that I was traumatized by the experience. I hunt, and slaughter my own livestock, so that doesn't confront me one way or the other, either. And, as I've offered, one of the ceremonnies I participate in makes circumcision seem pretty tame, even for an adult, and is, for some, about as gory as ritual slaughter might be. 



CanuckMA said:


> Anybody who reads the Bible knows that Judaism had animal sacrifices. Nowhere is there human sacrifice, and 2 out of context quotes does not a proof make. There is also nothing to substantiate that Holy Eucharist is rooted in cannibalism.


 
Lots and lots and *lots* of books and papers have been written to discuss the matter of the Eucharist and cannibalism. The concept is as old as the rite itself. As I posted earlier, theophagy is a universal religious concept that isn't exclusive to Christianity at all, and in many instances, it did entail actual cannibalism.That the notion was unkown to the people of the time seems ludicrous, especially given the likely Roman and obvious Mithraic influences upon it...

As for human sacrifice in the Bible, the two quotes (there are also instances of cannibalism, but we'll leave that aside for the moment) open a variety of questions about the heathen practices of the early Hebrews and other tribes of the region: What of Abraham's _willingness_ to do such a thing? What of Isaac's willingness to go with his father? If it was a test, what was God "testing," or was it a test for Abraham's own awareness? What of Jeptha's willingness to fulfill his promise to the Lord? Were there mechanisms to not fulfill this promise? If there were, why didn't he use them? What of his daughter's willingness to go along with the promise? All in all, these questions lead to the inevitable notion that human sacrificial rites weren't unheard of, _anthropologically_ speaking. Ditto the prohibitions against such things-why forbid it if it hasn't taken place?




CanuckMA said:


> Try coming at it another way. Ask questions instead of spouting specious facts.


 
Didn't spout any "specious facts," I'm pretty sure there is no such thing.On the other hand, I did ask a question:






CanuckMA said:


> Anybody who reads the Bible knows that Judaism had animal sacrifices


 


			
				el Brujo de la Cueva (that's me!) said:
			
		

> I'm aware that some of the arguments about kaparos stem from its apparent relationship to Temple worship, and _I have a question_ that's somewhat related to this thread: there are movements within the Fundamentalist Christian community as well as the Jewish communities to build a third temple in Jerusalem.*Should such an event come to pass, do you think it would bring the revival of Temple worship, and animal sacrifice?*


 
I'm pretty certain that the people trying to bring about a new Temple have read the Bible. I even could say something about the apocalyptic motivations of the Christians involved, but I have to reiterate the question, and wonder if they recognize this particular implication?

Not that *I* would actually care, one way or the other if it did. _I'm just asking._


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## Tez3 (Jan 23, 2009)

Elder, I think perhaps one of your hobbies is posting up religious theories designed to get at least a couple of people biting. hence Sgtmacs points about this being a continuation of other religious points. i also think vanity creeps in at atimes because you love to tell us 'that you have written several papers' etc, well good for you but as the saying goes, until you walk a mile in a man's shoes......
I have to say the reason I answer is not for you to read and answer  but for others who may be ignorant about Judaism and may believe things such as the blood libel. 
You say you understand we have been persecuted in the past and are fearful of being persecuted again but in fact Jews have never stopped being persecuted. We have people who are in fear of their lives still in many countries, fleeing to Israel has proved impossible so far though efforts continue to try to get them out of their respective countries. there are Jews in such countires as Pakistan who may be the smallest community in the world but are in hiding,this pattern is repeated all over the middle east. Former communist countires are also beoming more and more anti semitic not that it had ever gone away. In the 'free' world anti semitisim is on the rise, there are increasing attacks on Jews and Jewish communities so yes it's our duty to guard agaisnt attacks that come from anywhay, it's the one thing Jews everywhere share, the fact that we are condemned for merely being Jews, even agnostic and atheist Jews suffer.
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/US/03/14/anti-semitism/index.html
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/05/07/arts/kimmel.php
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7534243.stm

This is just the tip of the iceberg. On the BBC  link look at how many attacks there have been last year on my community in Leeds alone. Just because we are paranoid doesn't mean to say people aren't out to get us!

_You didn't answer my question though, which Jewish 'orthodox' community is waving chickens around? who is their Rebbe? _

On the subject of circumcison, we had a mohel many years ago who whenever he did a circumcision his assistant would keep the foreskin, when the venerable gentleman finally retired he was presented with a wallet made form the foreskins, when he rubbed it though, it became a suitcase  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .:ultracool



it's a joke people!!!!!


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## elder999 (Jan 23, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Elder, I think perhaps one of your hobbies is posting up religious theories designed to get at least a couple of people biting.


 
Hmmm...it wouldn't be a "discussion" without " a couple of people biting," so maybe you're right. 



Tez3 said:


> . i also think vanity creeps in at atimes because you love to tell us 'that you have written several papers' etc


 
Well, I won't deny my vanity-but I've lots of other things to brag on, and other places to do so....I've also got more than a few that I just can't brag on, and that's galling at times...
....the reason I bring up writing the papers, etc.-at least as far as this goes-is just to demonstrate that it's more than idle curiousity, passing interest, an accusation or an attempt to titillate or be provocative-though those last sometimes do wind up being an element of what I'm trying to do. I really do spend part of my spare time thinking about and investigating stuff like this-and my dad's dead, I can't talk about three quarters of it with my mom: she actually put her hand over my mouth when I posited the notion that Jesus might have been married because scripture calls him "rabbi"! And most of you are, outside of work, some of the most intelligent people I've found to discuss things like this with-that's not flattery, that's fact.



Tez3 said:


> well good for you but as the saying goes, until you walk a mile in a man's shoes......


 
That's _mocassins_, actually. :lol:



Tez3 said:


> You say you understand we have been persecuted in the past and are fearful of being persecuted again but in fact Jews have never stopped being persecuted.


 
Man's inhumanity to his fellow man is a universal thing for almost all of us. "Reasons," after all, are what we used to justify Hiroshima and Nagasaki.




Tez3 said:


> _You didn't answer my question though, which Jewish 'orthodox' community is waving chickens around? who is their Rebbe? _


 
Actually, I posted the name, address and webpage of one of the rabbis involved. I also know the Lubavitchers, at least in the U.S. do this, as well as other Hasids, but the "who" of it is neither here nor there-I wouldn't be surprised if _falashas/Beta Israel_ didn't do this and maybe even more....in fact, now that I've had the notion, I'll have to find out.

I'll keep it to myself this time, though...:lol:



Tez3 said:


> On the subject of circumcison, we had a mohel many years ago who whenever he did a circumcision his assistant would keep the foreskin, when the venerable gentleman finally retired he was presented with a wallet made form the foreskins, when he rubbed it though, it became a suitcase . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .:ultracool


 
:lol:

Of course, now that I've asked a question (rather than _implying_ one by offering the question for discussion) no one is even trying to answer it....oh,well....


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## Tez3 (Jan 23, 2009)

Elder, I love you dearly  as a brother but do give me time to post answers to your questons!
I doubt Jesus was married btw, for crying out loud he was Jewish, do you think his mother would have thought any girl good enough for her prince!! 
"Ah all I went through when you were born, gave you the best years of my life and you want go off and leave your poor mother for _this _girl?" Even G-d is helpless in the face of a Jewish mother, He knows when he's beaten. 

I do worry when things are posted about Jews, not so much things that are in a negative light, such as the recent Gaza situation which is in the open and can be discussed as it is but the things such as the blood libel and cannabalism which can be used against us slyly. It can be reposted on the internet as 'truth', printed off and used as a 'teaching' tool. It's also a great part of my job to be paranoid, the government pays me well!


I used the word shoes because like you I can't spell moccasins lol!


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## elder999 (Jan 23, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Elder, I love you dearly


 
And I love you back! :lol:



Tez3 said:


> I doubt Jesus was married btw, for crying out loud he was Jewish, do you think his mother would have thought any girl good enough for her prince!!


 
Well, funnily enough-if you're not familiar with the wedding at Cana, it's called Jesus's first miracle. He turned water into wine at a wedding, because his mom told him _They need more wine_. Of course, the groom's family was at one time responsible for music, food and liquor at traditional Jewish weddings, but....:lol:



Tez3 said:


> "Ah all I went through when you were born, gave you the best years of my life and you want go off and leave your poor mother for _this _girl?" Even G-d is helpless in the face of a Jewish mother, He knows when he's beaten.


 
....you may just have a point. :lol:



Tez3 said:


> I do worry when things are posted about Jews, not so much things that are in a negative light, such as the recent Gaza situation which is in the open and can be discussed as it is but the things such as the blood libel and cannabalism which can be used against us slyly.


 
Not to worry-ignorance can *try* and masquerade as the truth all it likes; it's still recognized as what it is....



Tez3 said:


> It's also a great part of my job to be paranoid, the government pays me well!


 
I know the feeling....kinda sucks, don't it?



Tez3 said:


> I used the word shoes because like you I can't spell moccasins lol!


 
Apparently, I can't either! :lfao:


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## Tez3 (Jan 23, 2009)

Anyway our roots aren't hidden they are touched up regularly... ( I should be as lucky).
http://www.reviewcentre.com/reviews157228.html


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## CanuckMA (Jan 23, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> I doubt Jesus was married btw, for crying out loud he was Jewish, do you think his mother would have thought any girl good enough for her prince!!
> "Ah all I went through when you were born, gave you the best years of my life and you want go off and leave your poor mother for _this _girl?" Even G-d is helpless in the face of a Jewish mother, He knows when he's beaten.


 
Proof the Jesus was Jewish: 

He lived at home until he was 33
He went into his father's business
He thought his mother was a virgin.

Gut Shabbos


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## elder999 (Jan 26, 2009)

Ezekiel and Jeremiah both make complaints about the past instances of human sacrifice in Israel and Judea, when the Hebrews on occasion embraced the pagan practices of their neighbors, and there are verses in various other books of the Old Testament that show that these things are part of the narrative. Ezekiel makes the most interesting statement, though, when speaking on behalf of the Lord:





> 20And you took your sons and your daughters, whom you had borne to me, and these you sacrificed to them to be devoured. Were your harlotries so small a matter 21that you slaughtered my children and delivered them up as an offering by fire to them





> 25*Moreover I gave them statutes that were not good and ordinances by which they could not have life; 26and I defiled them through their very gifts in making them offer by fire all their first-born, that I might horrify them; I did it that they might know that I am the LORD.*30Wherefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord GOD: Will you defile yourselves after the manner of your fathers and go astray after their detestable things? 31When you offer your gifts and sacrifice your sons by fire, you defile yourselves with all your idols to this day. And shall I be inquired of by you, O house of Israel? As I live, says the Lord GOD, I will not be inquired of by you.(Ezek. 20:20-31)


 
So here we have the lord saying that he directed Israel to offer their first born, _*by fire*_, that he might horrify them_interesting_.


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## CanuckMA (Jan 26, 2009)

What translation is that?

My Ezekiel 20:20-31 is nowhere near that.

*20* and hallow My sabbaths, and they shall be a sign between Me and you, that ye may know that I am the LORD your God. *21* But the children rebelled against Me; they walked not in My statutes, neither kept Mine ordinances to do them, which if a man do, he shall live by them; they profaned My sabbaths; then I said I would pour out My fury upon them, to spend My anger upon them in the wilderness. *22* Nevertheless I withdrew My hand, and wrought for My name's sake, that it should not be profaned in the sight of the nations, in whose sight I brought them forth. *23* I lifted up My hand unto them also in the wilderness, that I would scatter them among the nations, and disperse them through the countries; *24* because they had not executed Mine ordinances, but had rejected My statutes, and had profaned My sabbaths, and their eyes were after their fathers' idols. *25* Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and ordinances whereby they should not live; *26* and I polluted them in their own gifts, in that they set apart all that openeth the womb, that I might destroy them, to the end that they might know that I am the LORD. *{S}* *27* Therefore, son of man, speak unto the house of Israel, and say unto them: Thus saith the Lord GOD: In this moreover have your fathers blasphemed Me, in that they dealt treacherously with Me. *28* For when I had brought them into the land, which I lifted up My hand to give unto them, then they saw every high hill, and every thick tree, and they offered there their sacrifices, and there they presented the provocation of their offering, there also they made their sweet savour, and there they poured out their drink-offerings. *29* Then I said unto them: What meaneth the high place whereunto ye go? So the name thereof is called Bamah unto this day. *{S}* *30* Wherefore say unto the house of Israel: Thus saith the Lord GOD: When ye pollute yourselves after the manner of your fathers, and go after their abominations, *31* and when, in offering your gifts, in making your sons to pass through the fire, ye pollute yourselves with all your idols, unto this day; *{S}* shall I then be inquired of by you, O house of Israel? As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I will not be inquired of by you;


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## elder999 (Jan 26, 2009)

Sorry about that. That first snippet is Ezekiel 6:20-21. Ezekiel's basically chewing Isrel out (again) for what is reiterated in Ezekiel 20:25-31, which is what I have there in the second snippet.....you'll see that my 20:25-31 pretty much matches yours, with some exceptions for word choices; the meaning and intent is the same, though.

And there's more:

King David participated in the sacrifice of seven men at the beginning of a barley harvest with an eye towards ending famine in the land. 
There was famine in the kingdom of David for three years. When David asked God what he could do about it. God explained that it was because of bloodguilt on Saul because he put the Gibeonites to death. 

King David participated in the sacrifice of seven men at the beginning of a barley harvest with an eye towards ending famine in the land. There was famine in the kingdom of David for three years. When David asked God what he could do about it. God explained that it was because of bloodguilt on Saul because he put the Gibeonites to death. So David called for the Gibeonites and wanted to know what he could do to expiate for what Saul did. The Gibeonites replied that it was not a matter of money. What they wanted was seven of Saul's sons so they may hang them. David agreed. David picked two of Saul's sons and five of his grandsons. They were hanged on the mountain before God, at the beginning of the barley harvest. 





> 1Now there was a famine in the days of David for three years, year after year; and David sought the face of the LORD. And the LORD said,"There is bloodguilt on Saul and on his house, because he put the Gibeonites to death." 2So the king called the Gibeonites. Now the Gibeonites were not of the people of Israel, but of the remnant of the Amorites; although the people of Israel had sworn to spare them, Saul had sought to slay them in his zeal for the people of Israel and Judah. 3And David said to the Gibeonites, "What shall I do for you? And how shall I make expiation, that you may bless the heritage of the LORD?" 4The Gibeonites said to him, "It is not a matter of silver or gold between us and Saul or his house; neither is it for us to put any man to death in Israel." And he said, "What do you say that I shall do for you?" 5They said to the king, "The man who consumed us and planned to destroy us, so that we should have no place in all the territory of Israel, 6 *let seven of his sons be given to us, so that we may hang them up before the LORD at Gibeon on the mountain of the LORD." *And the king said, "I will give them." 7But the king spared Mephibosheth, the son of Saul's son Jonathan, because of the oath of the LORD which was between them, between David and Jonathan the son of Saul. 8The king took the two sons of Rizpah the daughter of Aiah, whom she bore to Saul, Armoni and Mephibosheth; and the five sons of Merab the daughter of Saul, whom she bore to Adri-el the son of Barzillai the Meholathite; 9and he gave them into the hands of the Gibeonites, and *they hanged them on the mountain before the LORD,* and the seven of them perished together. *They were put to death in the first days of harvest, at the beginning of barley *harvest.
> (2 Sam. 21:1-9)


 
After the time of Solomon, the kingdom of Israel split up into two kingdoms, Israel and Judah. When the kings of Israel and Judah were winning their invasion against the Moabites, the Moabite king made a burnt offering of his oldest son. A great wrath came upon Israel and they had to withdraw. In effect, the Moabite god, Chemosh, defeated Yahweh. 




> 26When the king of Moab saw that the battle was going against him, he took with him seven hundred swordsmen to break through, opposite the king of Edom; but they could not. 27Then he took his eldest son who was to reign in his stead, and offered him for a burnt offering upon the wall. And there came great wrath upon Israel; and they withdrew from him and returned to their own land. (2 Kings. 3:26-27)


 
The divided kingdom of Israel came to an end with its capture by the Assyrians. God is said to have made it happen because they worshipped alien gods, made burnt offerings of sons and daughters and practiced occultism. 



> 16And they forsook all the commandments of the LORD their God, and made for themselves molten images of two calves; and they made an Asherah, and worshiped all the host of heaven, and served Baal.*17And they burned their sons and their daughters as offerings,* and used divination and sorcery, and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the LORD, provoking him to anger. 18Therefore the LORD was very angry with Israel, and removed them out of his sight; none was left but the tribe of Judah only. (2 Kgs. 17:16-18)


 
Ahab and his Phoenician wife Jezebel were among God's most infamous royalty. He practiced "foundation sacrifice" in which a child in entombed in the foundation. We are told that Jericho could not be rebuilt without satisfying Joshua's curse against jericho, that whomever rebuilt the city would build it upon the bodies of his children.



> 33And Ahab made an Asherah. Ahab did more to provoke the LORD, the God of Israel, to anger than all the kings of Israel who were before him. *34In his days Hiel of Bethel built Jericho; he laid its foundation at the cost of Abiram his first-born, and set up its gates at the cost of his youngest son Segub, according to the word of the LORD, which he spoke by Joshua the son of Nun.* (1 Kgs. 16:33-34)


 
King Ahaz burned his son in an offering in accordance with the practices of other nations




> 2Ahaz was twenty years old when he began to reign, and he reigned sixteen years in Jerusalem. And he did not do what was right in the eyes of the LORD his God, as his father David had done, 3but *he walked in the way of the kings of Israel. He even burned his son as an offering, according to the abominable practices of the nations whom the LORD drove out before the people of Israel.* (2 Kgs. 16:2-3)


 
Hoshea was the last king of Israel before it split from Judah. Under his reign the people burned their sons and daughters.




> 17*And they burned their sons and their daughters as offerings*, and used divination and sorcery and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the Lord, provoking him to anger. (2 Kings 17:7)


 

King Ahaz's grandson, Manasseh, reigned for 55 years, the longest in Judah's history. He is said to have burned his son as an offering. We can safely assume that the practice was widespread among the people of Judah during his reign. 




> 1Manasseh was twelve years old when he began to reign, and he reigned fifty-five years in Jerusalem. His mother's name was Hephzibah.





> 6*And he burned his son as an offering,* and practiced soothsaying and augury, and dealt with mediums and with wizards. He did much evil in the sight of the LORD, provoking him to anger. (2 Kgs. 21:6, 2 Chron. 33:6)


 
King Josiah's reign began approximately 50 years before the exile and lasted 31 years. Yet at this late stage, he still had to devote effort to stopping the people of Judah from sacrificing their children to Molech. 



> 10He defiled Topheth, which is in the valley of Benhinnom, so that no one would make a son or a daughter pass through fire as an offering to Molech. (2 Kgs. 23:10)


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## CanuckMA (Jan 26, 2009)

And none of that shows human sacrifice in Judaism.

The sacrifices are either performed by other nations, or by Israelites after they have turned away from G-d and offer sacrices to other gods.

And I Kings 16:34 reads:

 In his days did Hiel the Bethelite build Jericho; with Abiram his first-born he laid the foundation thereof, and with his youngest son Segub he set up the gates thereof; according to the word of the LORD, which He spoke by the hand of Joshua the son of Nun.

Huge difference. Hiel did not sacrifice Abiram to build Jericho. Abiram helds Hiel build Jericho.

Try this text for translation: http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/index.htm

The English is a bit archaic, but the translation is faithful to the Hebrew.


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## elder999 (Jan 26, 2009)

CanuckMA said:


> And none of that shows human sacrifice in Judaism.


 
Not really saying that-especially since "Judaism" didn't exist until after the fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D., as I posted earlier-all of this obviously "happened" before Judaism.

What it shows though, is that through the ages the _Hebrew_ elders who composed the texts, as well as the greater "nation of Israel"-whether actually in Israel or in exile-had a preoccupation with human sacrifice. They were, for the most part, surrounded by nations that utilized it. They did, from time to time, turn away from God and practice it. They did, from time to time, turn to other Gods and practice it. They did, from time to time, make allowances for other peoples to practice it-the commandment is that _Israel_ have no other gods before Him, not that other people couldn't-it doesn't even make the case that other gods don't exist. 

Given that they found themselves in this cultural milieu, the preoccupation is understandable. The Abrahamic taboo against it, though-obviously speaks to a time when they practiced it, taken in the context of that cultural milieu. I'll say again,_why forbid something if it doesn't take place?_

THink all of that qualifies as "roots." Somewhat obviously forgotten, if not "hidden." :lol:



CanuckMA said:


> Try this text for translation: http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/index.htm
> 
> The English is a bit archaic, but the translation is faithful to the Hebrew.


 

The Bible Gateway has all kinds of translations, including the Westminster Leningrad Codex. Additionally, while it's a little underutilized, I'm completely capable of reading classical Hebrew myself, thanks. I can even stumble through _Mishnaic_ and Aramaic....



CanuckMA said:


> And I Kings 16:34 reads:
> 
> In his days did Hiel the Bethelite build Jericho; with Abiram his first-born he laid the foundation thereof, and with his youngest son Segub he set up the gates thereof; according to the word of the LORD, which He spoke by the hand of Joshua the son of Nun.
> 
> Huge difference. Hiel did not sacrifice Abiram to build Jericho. Abiram helds Hiel build Jericho.


 
I think you meant "Abiram _helps_ ?"

Yeah, he helped by being sacrificed and laid in the foundation, _as per the words of the LORD, which he spoke by the hand of Joshua, the son of Nun:_



> _26Joshua laid an oath upon them at that time, saying, "*Cursed before the LORD be the man that rises up and rebuilds this city, Jericho. At the cost of his first-born shall he lay its foundation, and at the cost of his youngest son shall he set up its gates." *
> 27So the LORD was with Joshua; and his fame was in all the land. (Josh. 6:26-27)_


_



Next up, cannibalism....._


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## redantstyle (Jan 26, 2009)

*settles back with some popcorn*


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## elder999 (Jan 26, 2009)

While Biblical sacrifice was practiced as a matter of appeasement, cannibalism was imposed as a matter of punishment, and maybe at times it was a matter of hunger. A woman complained to the king about being tricked by another woman to share in eating their sons. After they boiled the first son and ate him, the second woman refused to give up hers:



> 26Now as the king of Israel was passing by upon the wall, a woman cried out to him, saying, "Help, my lord, O king!"
> 27And he said, "If the LORD will not help you, whence shall I help you? From the threshing floor, or from the wine press?" 28And the king asked her, "What is your trouble?" She answered, *"This woman said to me, 'Give your son, that we may eat him today, and we will eat my son tomorrow.' 29So we boiled my son, and ate him. *And on the next day I said to her, 'Give your son, that we may eat him'; but she has hidden her son." (2 Kings 6:26-29)


 
Speaking through Jeremiah, God threatened to make the Israelites eat the flesh of their sons and daughters. They were to eat their warring neighbors too:



> 9And* I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and their daughters, and every one shall eat the flesh of his neighbor *in the siege and in the distress, with which their enemies and those who seek their life afflict them. (Jer. 19:9)


 
As judgment,God will make fathers eat their sons and sons shall eat their fathers:




> 9And because of all your abominations I will do with you what I have never yet done, and the like of which I will never do again.
> 10Therefore *fathers shall eat their sons* in the midst of you, and* sons shall eat their fathers*; and I will execute judgments on you, and any of you who survive I will scatter to all the winds. (Ezek. 5:9-10)


 
Speaking through Isaiah, Yahweh will make Israel's oppressors eat their own flesh and drink their own blood. 



> 26I will make your oppressors eat their own flesh, and they shall be drunk with their own blood as with wine. (Isaiah. 49:26)






> 9So I said, "I will not be your shepherd. What is to die, let it die; what is to be destroyed, let it be destroyed; and let those that are left devour the flesh of one another." (Zech. 11:9)


 
Cannibalism, as  I posted earlier, always has a religious connotation: in cultures where enemies were eaten, it was a magic rite where one consumed the enemies power. In instances of starvation, it takes on a feeling of being saved, and of the eaten person being a saviour of sorts. It is also accompanied at times by no small amount of stigma-it's almost the ultimate taboo.

Likewise, if Israel came to be in such a cultural milieu, where the stigma of cannibalism was seen as a punishment, we can infer that there were instances of cannibalism beyond these in its history-again,there would not be the recurring theme of this trauma and its being associated with a punishment from God. As in the case of ritual human sacrifice, it's a matter of being the smoke from the fire. Just as there'd be no prohibition against human sacrifice if it hadn't occured repeatedly, so too there would be no trauma, stigma and guilt associated with these instances of cannibalism, _if it had not occurred._


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## CanuckMA (Jan 27, 2009)

redantstyle said:


> *settles back with some popcorn*


 

You'll be disapointed.


I'm done researching and arguing inacurate translations of out of context quotes.

No offence elder, but while you think you may be able to understand Biblical Hebrew, I study with people who are truly fluent in it and have spent their lives studying Torah.


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## CanuckMA (Jan 27, 2009)

elder999 said:


> Not really saying that-especially since "Judaism" didn't exist until after the fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D., as I posted earlier-all of this obviously "happened" before Judaism.


 

Judaism, the relogion of the Jews, started with the giving of Torah, roughly 1000 BCE


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## elder999 (Jan 27, 2009)

CanuckMA said:


> Judaism, the relogion of the Jews, started with the giving of Torah, roughly 1000 BCE


 

Well, that's nice quasi-traditional answer; at least you didn't say it began with the covenant with Abraham, 1,000 years earlier. It leads me to more questions, though.A couple of things first, though-historically, we have archaeological references in Hebrew to "YHWH and his consort _Ahserah,_-leading many historical scholars to put the beginnings of Jewish monotheism around 621 BCE during theKingdom of Judea, after the destruciton of the Kingdom of Israel, as this appears to be when Asherah was purged from the religion.

Secondly, while the _roots_ of Judaism date back to this period and earlier, those people were generally not called "Jews," nor was their faith called "Judaism," or _anything resembling that_ until much later.

Thirdly, and most importantly, we know that much of what is called Torah was the product of the "deuteronomist," during the reign of King Josiah, around 640 BCE. While the deuteronomist had to source the earlier scribes documents-referred to by historians as the "elohist" and the "yahwist" sources-most of what comes from those periods is thought to be consistent with and contemporatneous to Hebrew polytheistic periods, which we know from the Bible , which, compared with the chronological record, pretty much tells us that polytheistic practices were consistent through the north of Israel throughout the Bible's history, and persisted in the south, in Judah, right up through about the same period, up until King Hezekia, who tried to enforce monotheism around 730-690 BCE, but whose son allowed the people to revert to polytheism.

At any rate, we can place the proper _beginnings_ of monotheistic Judaism in the reign of Josiah, around 640-610 BCE, but no one was called "Jewish," until the advent of rabbinical Judaism.



CanuckMA said:


> Judaism, the relogion of the Jews, started with the giving of Torah, roughly 1000 BCE


 
_Written _Tora_h, or [i[*oral *_Torah_?_

'Cause, while you can say they were both "given" around 1000 BCE, or wherever you wish to place "Moses" (it's fair to say that the mythology dates from that period, anyway) the first document of the oral Torah, the Mishnah, wasn't first recorded until about 200 AD.

In any case, Rabbinical Judaism developed out of the Pharasiac movement and in response to the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE. It was really, at this point that the Hebrews became Jews. The rabbis sought to reinterpret Jewish concepts and practices in the absence of the Temple and for a people in exile. Aside from some small side movements (such as the Karaites), Rabbinical Judaism was the dominant form of the Jewish religion for nearly 18 centuries. It produced the Talmud, the Midrash, and the great figures of medieval Jewish philosophy

_


CanuckMA said:



			You'll be disapointed.
		
Click to expand...

_


CanuckMA said:


> _I'm done researching and arguing inacurate translations of out of context quotes._


 
Of course, the accurate english translations on the webpage you provided match mine in content and context, even with the "archaic english." 

Does that means I'm right? :lol:

Perhaps we should both count ourselves lucky that I left the _Piduyon HaBen_ out of this discussion...:lol:




CanuckMA said:


> _No offence elder, but while you think you may be able to understand Biblical Hebrew, I study with people who are truly fluent in it and have spent their lives studying Torah._


 
.None taken. Two biggest books in a person's life:_Things I Don't Know_ and _Things They Don't Know About *Me*._ Of course, "me", in this case, is just about anyone....


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## Ray (Jan 27, 2009)

elder999 said:


> Thirdly, and most importantly, we know that much of what is called Torah was the product of the "deuteronomist," during the reign of King Josiah, around 640 BCE.


It is an untestable hypothesis.  There are no extant dual sources.  In such a case we should not say it is a known fact.  It is a reasonable proposal though.


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