# WC and internal roots



## barnaby (Aug 13, 2006)

This thread is an offspring of a General Chinese Arts discussion regarding internal arts.  I have received more than skeptical feedback in my listing of Wing Chun as an internal art.

"It is widely believed that the Wing Chun Kung Fu system was developed by a Buddhist nun named Ng Mui, trained in Shaolin Kung Fu, over 300 years ago in China. She synthesized all of the martial arts she had learned at the Shaolin Temple down to a simple and direct fighting style that anyone, regardless of size, could use. Her first pupil was a young woman named Yim Wing Chun. The nun named her style of Kung Fu after this student."  -- from the Hawkins Cheung site (http://www.hawkinscheung.com/), under "Wing Chun."

So if we are to assume this nun didn't steer clear of three very powerful arts in particular, this points toward Wing Chun being of a secondary category, according to one of the contributors to the conversation -- an art derivitive of the internal arts.  Many practitioners of these three arts, Tai Chi, Bagua, and Tsing I (SP?, sorry no time to cover my *** on the spelling of that right now) have been through my school and noticed the influence of their arts very clearly.   

I don't have investment in making anyone else believe what I know of my art form -- Wing Chun is the "bastard that got away" of the internal arts, and its reputation will likely always put it in its own category for many reasons --  however I don't have to swallow statements of confidence that do not take into account many subtle aspects of what I've enjoyed training for sometime now.

http://www.romerowingchun.com


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## 7starmantis (Aug 13, 2006)

I think there are many, many arts that have many if not all of the internal aspects and principles of the three main "internal arts" but as far as the distinction goes thats just the ones people know and understadn as the three main. I personally have an issue with the whole Internal/External distinctions and seperations as many many systems have the internal aspects and principles. But, what can you do? People have lived with these labels and people understand these labels, people will argue adamantly that these distoinctiosn should exist and that this art or that art is or isn't "internal". 

Its all subjective and the distinctions are good if understood for what they are, simply semantical labels to help categorize. They go no further than that. Some people place so much importance on the words internal or external and will fight and argue to death that a style is good or bad based on if it can be called by one of the words. Its pretty trite to me, but for some reason, people can't get past words sometimes.

7sm


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## monji112000 (Aug 15, 2006)

Ip Man's lineage of Wing Chun has no internal aspects at all. Ip Man didn't teach anyone any Qi kung or Internal techniques breathing ect.. unless their was a secrete disciple that no one knows about.


I have practiced Qi kung and iron body (briefly trained it). I can't comment on its effectiveness. I can say that from what I hear (two different sources) Ip Man had said that he never came across anyone that could use Qi/internal kung fu in a fight. That doesn't mean that Qi Kung has no benefit, just that in all the people he has fought (and many other people have said the same thing) NONE can use the Qi for martial purposes (IE iron body, qi blast ect..).


Maybe some people can.. I am not a expert on the matter. I had heard someone ask my Sifu about Qi kung and WC fighting. He said the best Qi kung is good cardio workout.

I know the self proclaimed Grandmaster of Wing Chun William Chueng has added Qi kung to his traditional Wing Chun. Other Styles(mainland) of Wing Chun may use Qi kung allot.


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## bcbernam777 (Sep 12, 2006)

monji112000 said:


> Ip Man's lineage of Wing Chun has no internal aspects at all. Ip Man didn't teach anyone any Qi kung or Internal techniques breathing ect.. unless their was a secrete disciple that no one knows about.
> 
> 
> I have practiced Qi kung and iron body (briefly trained it). I can't comment on its effectiveness. I can say that from what I hear (two different sources) Ip Man had said that he never came across anyone that could use Qi/internal kung fu in a fight. That doesn't mean that Qi Kung has no benefit, just that in all the people he has fought (and many other people have said the same thing) NONE can use the Qi for martial purposes (IE iron body, qi blast ect..).
> ...



Yip Man did teach Qi Gung it did not originate with William Cheung.


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## yipman_sifu (Sep 13, 2006)

bcbernam777 said:


> Yip Man did teach Qi Gung it did not originate with William Cheung.


 
Wing Chun takes whatever is useful. The internal aspects is there, it can be from the Sui lim Tao. As it is not just an external method of stretching arms and crossing them. it gives you balance and stability, above that it teaches you how to deliver the full impact in a short distance.

Regarding William cheung. Please, this Sifu with all my respect to his system, claims everything to be his. Facts and stories like bcbernam said, proves that Yipman trained in internal aspects. this includes the story when he challenged his friends to tie his legs by a rope and start pulling him. His friends tried to pull him, but Yipman was like a solid rock, they couldn't move him a single inch.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 13, 2006)

Almost all CMA styles have an internal (Nèiji&#257 aspect by the Qigong definition but there are only a few of those called internal styles; Tai Chi, Xingyi, Bagua, Liu He Ba Fa and possibly Yiquan. It is not just the Qigong aspect that labels something internal or external. You may also notice those are all Northern styles based in Taoism as well. 

Part of the definition of internal external has to do with origin. Internal having its roots in Taoism which is internal (indigenous) to China. If the roots are not is Taoism than it is not internal. External such as arts based in Buddhism which are external to (from outside of) china are external arts.

I am sorry but Wing Chun is not an internal style, and by your definition (Buddhist nun) it is not an internal style.

This is not saying anything is better or worse just not internal. I also train Sanda and it is extremely external (Wàiji&#257 and yet it is from multiple CMA styles and has on a few ocassionis reminded me of Xingyi training as well as Long Fist.


*Nèiji&#257;*
http://www.answers.com/topic/neijia


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## yipman_sifu (Sep 13, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:


> Almost all CMA styles have an internal (Nèiji&#257 aspect by the Qigong definition but there are only a few of those called internal styles; Tai Chi, Xingyi, Bagua, Liu He Ba Fa and possibly Yiquan. It is not just the Qigong aspect that labels something internal or external. You may also notice those are all Northern styles based in Taoism as well.
> 
> Part of the definition of internal external has to do with origin. Internal having its roots in Taoism which is internal (indigenous) to China. If the roots are not is Taoism than it is not internal. External such as arts based in Buddhism which are external to (from outside of) china are external arts.
> 
> ...


 
Sanda?, you mean the Chinese version of MMA. Let me tell you something. those external combative sport techniques are not that effective in a real fight. Especially the size matters alot in those fights. Wing Chun is a soft fighting method, as it borrowes force and it is hitting vital areas of the body. Training in one thing and being good at it will make you a better fighter and more capable of your moves than this cross-training stuff. One of my dreams is to find a good TaiChi instructor and learn, as it is a development skill that I like, in which the older you are, the more experience and stability you gain, and you find it a sort of a complete art of fighting, same goes to Wing Chun.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 13, 2006)

yipman_sifu said:


> Sanda?, you mean the Chinese version of MMA. Let me tell you something. those external combative sport techniques are not that effective in a real fight. Especially the size matters alot in those fights. Wing Chun is a soft fighting method, as it borrowes force and it is hitting vital areas of the body. Training in one thing and being good at it will make you a better fighter and more capable of your moves than this cross-training stuff. One of my dreams is to find a good TaiChi instructor and learn, as it is a development skill that I like, in which the older you are, the more experience and stability you gain, and you find it a sort of a complete art of fighting, same goes to Wing Chun.


 

First your response has nothing to do with the topic of the post

Second it was used as an example I am NOT saying it is better than wing chun and before you turn this into a sport MA verses non-sport thing you might want to familiarize yourself with Sanda is, you obviously only know one aspect of it. It is not a Chinese version of MMA it comes from and is still trained by the military. The sports version came later

Look here
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38089

And further more I do not train the sports version. And in further response to your post I have trained Yang Tai Chi for 12 years and I am now training Chen. I also train Sanda, I did at one time train Wing Chun too and I have been considering a return to it but I was offered the Sanda (non-sport version).

For crying out loud why is EVERYONE trying to turn every single post into a TMA vs. MMA thing


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## bcbernam777 (Sep 14, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:


> Almost all CMA styles have an internal (Nèiji&#257 aspect by the Qigong definition but there are only a few of those called internal styles; Tai Chi, Xingyi, Bagua, Liu He Ba Fa and possibly Yiquan. It is not just the Qigong aspect that labels something internal or external. You may also notice those are all Northern styles based in Taoism as well.
> 
> Part of the definition of internal external has to do with origin. Internal having its roots in Taoism which is internal (indigenous) to China. If the roots are not is Taoism than it is not internal. External such as arts based in Buddhism which are external to (from outside of) china are external arts.
> 
> ...




This distillation of hard/soft external/internal is mere semantics. Of course there are elements of both no matter the system you study, it depends on what is more heavily emphasised in the art or rather the balance that is maintained in the system you study. WC (real WC) has a blend of both internal and external, and saying that it comes down to its roots is not entirely acurate. WC was a distilation of more effecient ways of fighting from the shaolin, and does not therefore share its same external elements. Yet even Shaolin contains elements of internal. Wing Chun is neither internal or external, it is both, and it is simply Wing Chun.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 14, 2006)

bcbernam777 said:


> This distillation of hard/soft external/internal is mere semantics. Of course there are elements of both no matter the system you study, it depends on what is more heavily emphasised in the art or rather the balance that is maintained in the system you study. WC (real WC) has a blend of both internal and external, and saying that it comes down to its roots is not entirely acurate. WC was a distilation of more effecient ways of fighting from the shaolin, and does not therefore share its same external elements. Yet even Shaolin contains elements of internal. Wing Chun is neither internal or external, it is both, and it is simply Wing Chun.


 
I am not sure how to respond to this or even if I need to but...

I am not saying anything is better or worse than anything else.

Also historically and by definition it is not semantics.

And I do not understand the issue but the truth is that WC is not considered an internal MA. 

And to add, who cares. 

WC is a very good MA and I rather liked it back when I trained it, but it still is not an internal MA. The definition of internal MA has to do with how the Qi is focused and used as well as were the root of the MA comes from. 

WC is incredibly good and efficient CMA and whether or not it is considered internal, external, both or neither does not change that fact.


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## bcbernam777 (Sep 14, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:


> I am not sure how to respond to this or even if I need to but...
> 
> I am not saying anything is better or worse than anything else.
> 
> ...




There is a strong element of Qi that is utilised in Wing Chun.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 14, 2006)

bcbernam777 said:


> There is a strong element of Qi that is utilised in Wing Chun.


 
 I am not disputing that, there is a strong element of Qi utilized in just about all CMA style, as my first post in this thread states. But it is not just the study, use of or elements of Qi in a style that makes it internal. If that were the case than all CMA styles would be internal.

Once again I do not see the issue here. I am incredibly impressed with the directness, power and practicality of Wing Chun. I would also say the simplicity of it, but I really do not mean to say it is simple or easy it just seems less embellished if you will. But still it is not an internal CMA that is all. 

Taijiquan, Xingyiquan, Baguazhang, Liu he ba fa and possibly yiquan are internals but Wing Chin isn't. I am sorry if that upsets some people but it is fact that is all. 

What is, is.


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## bcbernam777 (Sep 14, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:


> I am not disputing that, there is a strong element of Qi utilized in just about all CMA style, as my first post in this thread states. But it is not just the study, use of or elements of Qi in a style that makes it internal. If that were the case than all CMA styles would be internal.
> 
> Once again I do not see the issue here. I am incredibly impressed with the directness, power and practicality of Wing Chun. I would also say the simplicity of it, but I really do not mean to say it is simple or easy it just seems less embellished if you will. But still it is not an internal CMA that is all.
> 
> ...




I understand what you are saying, all I am simply saying is that you cannot simply lum everything into catagories like that. Infact the heart and soul of the Tao (Ying Yang) the very symbol you have on your avatar, is that it is not simply Yin or Yan but it is both working in harmony with one another with a continual interplay between the two. Bruce Lee was also very critical of those who said "this style is hard and this style is soft or this style is internal or this ones external" he said that any one who held such a position misinterpreted the meaning of the true essence of Ying/Yang. In my own personal experiance, Wing chun (real Wing Chun) is the perfect balance of the two forces, and seeks to find harmony in both. As for being important, if it is not that important why is it that people so staunchly hold on to their assertions that their style is hard or soft. People tend to get consfused about these things.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 14, 2006)

bcbernam777 said:


> I understand what you are saying, all I am simply saying is that you cannot simply lum everything into catagories like that. Infact the heart and soul of the Tao (Ying Yang) the very symbol you have on your avatar, is that it is not simply Yin or Yan but it is both working in harmony with one another with a continual interplay between the two. Bruce Lee was also very critical of those who said "this style is hard and this style is soft or this style is internal or this ones external" he said that any one who held such a position misinterpreted the meaning of the true essence of Ying/Yang. In my own personal experiance, Wing chun (real Wing Chun) is the perfect balance of the two forces, and seeks to find harmony in both. As for being important, if it is not that important why is it that people so staunchly hold on to their assertions that their style is hard or soft. People tend to get consfused about these things.


 
Unless of course you are using a historical definition such as I am that refers to internal styles as those with a root in Taoism.

And Yin/Yang and balance are not part if the historical definition.

All CMA styles seek balance of Yin and Yang but not all styles of CMA are considered internal styles. 

And I am not disagreeing that Wing Chun seeks balance, it obviously does, but it still does not make it an Internal style of CMA. 

But to be honest this is going the way of the MMA vs. TMA stuff and I do not understand why it is, nor do I understand the need to call Wing Chun an internal martial art. I am not excluding it by some elitist attitude I am just going with the historical definition based on Taoism and the way Qi is trained, that is all. I am not overly concerned about it; it is simply historic Chinese fact that is all. Just the same as not all CMA styles come from Shaolin as others claim from time to time. 

The concern with what is internal and what is external is pointless all are martial arts, and to quote Bruce lee "What is, is."


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## 7starmantis (Sep 15, 2006)

So why the discussion then? Who cares what one calls their style? If one refers to a certain style as internal, external, blue, red, white, or froggy....who cares? As they say, the proof is in the pudding.....

7sm


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## bcbernam777 (Sep 17, 2006)

I agree with 7 star, my art is what it is, if you dont agree, then thats your opinion.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 17, 2006)

okie dokie


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 17, 2006)

7starmantis said:


> So why the discussion then? Who cares what one calls their style? If one refers to a certain style as internal, external, blue, red, white, or froggy....who cares? As they say, the proof is in the pudding.....
> 
> 7sm


 
I frankly do not care if they decide to call Wing Chun Steve and say Steve Allen invented it. But it would still be Wing Chun most likely from Yip Mann. If they whish to call it internal then feel free to do so but the bottom-line is that it is not an internal CMA it is an external CMA I am sorry if the facts offend some but they are still the facts. 

The entire post was started because the original poster was told in another post it was not internal and it is not but if he wish to go tell everyone it is internal so be it, he is wrong but that is no concern of mine. If however someone walks up to me and says Wing Chun is internal I will continue to tell them no it isn't.

Internal, external both are equally effective I do not understand what the desire is to have it listed as an internal style but then I have had enough of this call it what you will, just don't expect me to agree.


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## ed-swckf (Sep 17, 2006)

bcbernam777 said:


> I agree with 7 star, my art is what it is, if you dont agree, then thats your opinion.


 
Yeah but you both have opinions, one is based on this historical aspect of what makes something internal.  I for one am interested in hearing more about this.


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## ed-swckf (Sep 17, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:


> I frankly do not care if they decide to call Wing Chun Steve and say Steve Allen invented it. But it would still be Wing Chun most likely from Yip Mann. If they whish to call it internal then feel free to do so but the bottom-line is that it is not an internal CMA it is an external CMA I am sorry if the facts offend some but they are still the facts.
> 
> The entire post was started because the original poster was told in another post it was not internal and it is not but if he wish to go tell everyone it is internal so be it, he is wrong but that is no concern of mine. If however someone walks up to me and says Wing Chun is internal I will continue to tell them no it isn't.
> 
> Internal, external both are equally effective I do not understand what the desire is to have it listed as an internal style but then I have had enough of this call it what you will, just don't expect me to agree.


 
Hi, i've trained in steve for quite a while now, in fact i have just come back from doing steve!  I have always considered it to be both external and internal, particularly the first form.  It would seem that you feel steve is purely external, so i was wondering what qualities you believe are required to make something internal?  I feel it would be benificial to better understanding hwo this misconception of steve being both if that is a misconception.  If its not perhaps we could shed light on why people suggest steve to be both.


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## bcbernam777 (Sep 17, 2006)

ed-swckf said:


> Yeah but you both have opinions, one is based on this historical aspect of what makes something internal.  I for one am interested in hearing more about this.



the other is based on experiance, superior teaching and an understanding of Yin Yang, beside that what history is he refering too? The historical aspects of wing chun are as debatable as say internal/external


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## ed-swckf (Sep 18, 2006)

bcbernam777 said:


> the other is based on experiance, superior teaching and an understanding of Yin Yang, beside that what history is he refering too? The historical aspects of wing chun are as debatable as say internal/external


 
Is your opinion even open for debate though, it seems very much as though your mind is set and theres no changing it.  However, that is your opinion and it is debatable.  I don't share Xue Sheng's opinion but i do find it intruiging and interesting and do wish to understand it more before i cast it aside because i already have an opinion that differs from it.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 18, 2006)

bcbernam777 said:


> the other is based on experiance, superior teaching and an understanding of Yin Yang, beside that what history is he refering too? The historical aspects of wing chun are as debatable as say internal/external


 
I am not debating the history of Wing Chun. But you would know that if you had actually read my previous posts.

And I am not going to go into my background to continue this because it is pointless and this entire argument grows tiresome if you want to know it look for my second meet & Greet.

*What history?* Chinese history and the history of Chinese martial arts.

But here if it makes you feel better "POOF" Wing Chun is an internal CMA
See ya


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## Kensai (Sep 18, 2006)

Hey hey hey... guys. Come on. Chiiiill.... 

It might help to define exactly what internal and external CMA are, and then perhaps reach some understanding? Opinions are all great, from both sides of the viewpoint, but perhaps sometimes we can all get a little entrenched in opinions, too attached if you will. 

I've followed this thread for some time and avoided getting involved, however, I am interested to know the distinct difference of internal/external etc etc. I have heard of Steve being referred to as both an internal "and" external art, and in other debates purely an external. Now. Before either set of believers jump on me, my view on this is as yet undecided. I'm not sure of the point in labelling anything internal or external, but if that's the object of the thread, then that's fine by me.


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## pete (Sep 18, 2006)

here is part of it, mind-intent, as i understand and explained in another post.  might be a good starting off point...

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=617514&postcount=122


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## Kensai (Sep 18, 2006)

Found this on "internal arts". Does this sound like Wing Chun in certain aspects or does it not? I'm sincerely not wanting to have a go at people, simply interested to know. 
*Internal Martial Arts (Neijia)*

This section is an overview of common principles and benefits of Internal Martial Arts. 
The only way to understand and appreciate Internal Martial Arts is through (dedicated) practice. As in other martial arts, one learns techniques for fighting and self-defence but in internal martial arts there is one extra requirement that must be learned first - how to acquire *Internal Power*. 
*Internal Power and Qi*
In Internal Martial Arts, one of the aims of the training is to move in such a way that at any time we can bring the maximum power of the body to bear on any potential opponent. At the same time we have to be able to move easily and respond spontaneously in any direction without becoming tense and rigid. This type of power is called *Internal Power* and this where *Internal* Martial Arts got their name. A working definition of *Internal Power* could be: 
connecting the whole body with all movement and power originating from the centre (dantian) - *whole-body power* 
an ability to create a relaxed spring-like power in any direction (*peng*) 
an ability to use contraction into the centre 
an ability to use the minimum amount of muscular power whilst maintaining the above three points
and its use as:
a range of specialised skills for handling an opponent (sensing their movement, strength and intention, ability to control them through 'sticking', ...) 
a range of strategies/tactics for dealing with an opponent (not opposing strength with strength - i.e. the concept of Yin and Yang, using opponents' own strength against them, etc.) 
After an initial period of practice, resulting in becoming more relaxed and centred, students must learn how to use their *mind* to guide their practice. This can take a number of forms, one of the more 'traditional' ones being use of the concept of *Qi*. 
Using the concept of Qi is not necessary and as it is a concept that has no real parallel in our understanding of how things function, it often leads to confusion. Further, in Chinese culture, the word Qi has been used for a wide range of phenomena and this only adds to the confusion. However, if used properly, it is a highly convenient concept as its methodology had been worked out over a long period of time to guide the practice of Internal Power training. To use an analogy, learning to ride a bicycle can only be accomplished by paying attention to one's *balance* rather than to the action of muscles. Acquiring balance is not a motor skill that can be learned through practising a set of moves. In balancing, we need to be able (somehow) to guide postural muscles to 'do the right thing' and yet we have no (conscious) control over them. Similarly, to acquire Internal Power we need to be able to 'access and guide' deep structures of muscles over which we have no conscious control, nor even any awareness to speak of. We can use either *Qi* or adopt the approach of *Yiquan* where the concept of Qi was abandoned and replaced by use of mental images during practice (which really comes to the same thing). There are advantages and disadvantages to each method. In either case, the mental focus has the effect of promoting relaxation and freeing the body to do what is right without the interference of our conscious mind. 
Warmth, tingling and other sensations accompanying practice are regarded as manifestations of Qi. These sensations are not important in themselves, only what they tell us about our state of relaxation/excitation. Different people have different sensations and even in one individual, they keep changing. It would be a mistake to give them any real significance.
*Harmonising Body and Mind*
Each technique within any of the Internal Martial Arts must be in accordance with the principle known as *Six Harmonies*. These consist of:
Three External Harmonies 

Shoulders co-ordinate with hips
Elbows co-ordinate with knees
Wrists co-ordinate with ankles
This serves as a guide to the structure and use of the body in static postures and in movement. This is a 'starting point' of practice rather than a definitive list of co-ordinations.
Three Internal Harmonies 

The mind/thought leads intention
Intention leads Qi
Qi leads strength
This serves as a guide on how to use mind and body to produce Internal Power. Without that, the self-defence applications would be performed in an external manner and thus lose most of their effectiveness (and it would probably make more sense then to practice one of the external arts and save some time and effort!). That's why self-defence applications are traditionally not taught till the students begin to get some Internal Power skills. This explains the first difference one notices when comparing internal and external martial arts - whereas in the external arts (for example Karate) students learn self-defence techniques fairly early on and any other exercises are designed to strengthen and condition their body and mind, in the internal arts a lot of the time is spent on standing and slow, soft movements - Qigong - the very opposite of what one would imagine a martial art to be. However it is this process of finding and building the Internal Power that made internal martial arts so valuable as a system for improving and maintaining one's health. 
*Health*
The health benefits flow directly from the requirements of Internal Martial Arts practice. To develop *Internal Power*, it is necessary to have the whole body connected so that it moves as one unit. In order to achieve this, the movements are performed in a slow, relaxed and unhurried manner, and with a great deal of concentration. This is obviously greatly beneficial in reducing the level of stress - and stress is one of the biggest problems of modern life. All movements should be performed with an all-pervading spiral motion which benefits circulation, helps with many joint problems and improves digestion and other functions of internal organs. In recent years there have been many studies done which document the benefits one can gain from practising Taijiquan. Similar things can be said of the other Internal Martial Arts, too. 
After a period of regular practice, the effects can be felt in one's enhanced physical, mental and emotional well-being. On the physical level, the body becomes more supple and movements gain poise and become more graceful. On the mental level, one can think more clearly and one's concentration is greatly improved. On the emotional level, one becomes more relaxed, tolerant and generally happier. 
When practising these arts for health only, the tendency is to concentrate on the slow, flowing movements. However, without the feedback gained from two-person practice, the benefits are somewhat limited. This does not mean everyone should practise fighting applications, but everyone should try *Pushing Hands*. All the benefits described above are enhanced in correct Pushing Hands practice. This can be easily easily understood when you consider that to stay relaxed and connected when your partner is trying to push and pull you off balance, takes more skill and mental effort than when practising in a solo manner. 

*Pushing Hands*






 is the name used for a range of two-person drills which are designed to improve certain aspects of Internal Power. Their primary use is as a feedback mechanism so that students (and Masters!) can improve the alignment and 'whole body' movement and increase their body awareness. They can also be used to practise various control strategies for dealing with an opponent. 
Pushing Hands with no steps are used to develop a *root*; Pushing Hands with steps are used to develop the ability to step while maintaining balance and ground connection.

*Root*
- a strong connection (of the *dantian*) to the ground. 
*Dantian*
- a centre of gravity of one's body (lower abdomen). Depending on context, the area varies from a point to the whole abdomen including pelvis and hips. All movement and strength should originate from here. 
*Connection*
of the body is achieved by slightly stretching all the tissues and extending the joints. This must be done with no unnecessary tension otherwise the result will be a connected but stiff body.
*Competitions*
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=618645


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## Kensai (Sep 18, 2006)

Edited double post.


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## pete (Sep 18, 2006)

with all due respect, i find that description lacking in distinguishing internal from external arts, and will probably contribute to more fuzzy differentiation.


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## Kensai (Sep 18, 2006)

pete said:


> with all due respect, i find that description lacking in distinguishing internal from external arts, and will probably contribute to more fuzzy differentiation.


 
With all due respect, I don't believe I said it was the ultimate description of internal arts, more perhaps a general description that I happened to stumble across. Now I'm led to believe that you are the total expert on this matter, please, enlighten us as to EXACTLY what Wing Chun is, and perhaps then, there won't be any "fuzzy differentiation"?


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## pete (Sep 18, 2006)

sorry, no expertise whatsoever in wing chun, so you'll have to attain your enlightenment elsewhere.  i do not pretend to know something i do not, nor will i try to categorize what someone else does.  

i do have some knowledge of internal and external arts, and what qualities and training methods make them distinctly different. maybe a discussion of these differences can make it easier for those in the art to determine if it is internal or external. 

i thought that was where you were going... and i applaud your effort, just disagree that the article posted would get anybody closer to an answer.  seemed to easy to relate to the article from either an internal or external perspective... that's all. 

sheesh.

so what are the differences between internal and external? there are several, so let's begin with mind intent.  do you train to develop unconscious reactions from neuro-muscular memory or train to fully engage a conscious mind and respond through a see-think-do continuum?


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## profesormental (Sep 19, 2006)

Greetings.

The following are my thoughts on internal/external training focus on martial skills training. Then followed by an evaluation of Wing chun upon those standards.

"External" focus on training in general deals with training athletisism and conditioning of the cardiovascular and musculoskeletal system for high endurance, high intensity output, specially delivery and resisting powerful blows.

You can easily "see" that you're deliverign a bone crushing blow to the opponent and that you have good athletic ability.

"Internal" focus on training deals in aspects that are not visible to the untrained, including power principles and control of attributes that make it inconspicous that the blow you're delivering has deadly effect.

This focus on "correct" structure, maximizing "minor" movements (small movements that have a multiplying effect on results), control of "energy" and high awareness of anatomy and its martial uses is usually invisible.

By these standards, Wing Chun, depending on your teacher, trains both methods.

Many CMA train using both focii. In Wing Chun, you see some that train very "externally", which tend to "muscle through" their opponents in practice. Others train very "internally" and when countering don't have much behind their blows, or "noodles" in Chi sao.

So a balance must be struck for maximum performance.

Ohh... that pesky Yin/Yang thing again...

If you don't have one, you cannot maximize the other...one end tuns into clubbing like seeing early Bob Sapp fights... the other end is just philosophy without feedback, which looses all martial attributes.

Please feel free to add your thoughts in this.

sincerely,

Juan M. Mercado


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