# How you use a staff...



## geezer (Sep 28, 2019)

Lately I've dug out my old rattan staffs and dusted of some old forms and drills, and have even been teaching a couple of students the basics. One of the students spent many years in his younger days back in the 70s and 80s doing hard, old school TKD, and had some training with a _bo._ Ironically, he really struggles with the Escrima staff work we do. 

My own background is mainly Escrima and Wing Chun, so my staff work, especially power generation is very different. And that seems to be the problem. For example when gripping the staff in the center (as compared to using one end) we tend to favor the double palm-down grip, stand and basically move a lot like a boxer. 

This tough old TKD guy keeps his body straight back and square to the front, snapping the staff with his arms and a bit of hip, but without engaging his whole body. He seems to miss out on mobility, angling and most of all power generation. 

So I took a tour on-line and have to say, most of what I found was either a lot of showy and useless twirling, or very rigid old style kobudo that looked a bit like the way my student moved. I found almost nobody doing what I was taught until I came across this, a fragment of an old video from the early 90s by Rene Latosa. It's basically what we were doing today. For a briefer look skip ahead to about the 7:00 mark and watch.






So, my question is, _Why _is this (apparently) an unusual way to apply the staff and generate power. To me it's totally natural. And not even new. It's escrima, boxing, ...heck even a bit like Paulus Hector Mair. 

Any thoughts???


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## donald1 (Sep 29, 2019)

Neat video. The thing that sorta stood out was the way he held the staff out. Near the end for more reach. I say it stood out because I'm used to holding it in the center to strike with both sides. Though to be fair it's pretty easy to adjust your hands so I think I may have contradicted myself. Again though, neat video.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Sep 29, 2019)

I have no idea how to use it other than like a bayonet, which is simple enough, so thats how i use it.   

It might just be how the person is genetically disposed or has experience with(or a mix).   Even if you have just watched boxing on TV or anything on TV or read about it, it effects how you do things after all, as you think back to the closest applicable memory to it.  

If i understood the point correctly.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 29, 2019)

@geezer, you’ve seen my staff videos, so yeah, I agree with you.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 29, 2019)

geezer said:


> Any thoughts???


One of the most important stick against stick techniques is missing in this clip.

When your stick contact on your opponent's stick, you can slide your stick along his stick and hit his hand.

Also if you divide your stick in 3 parts and hold your hands at 1/3 and 2/3 spots, when you release one of your hands, you can hit 2/3 of your stick length on both sides. This way, your stick can cover a much wider range.


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## geezer (Sep 29, 2019)

donald1 said:


> Neat video. The thing that sorta stood out was the way he held the staff out. Near the end for more reach. I say it stood out because I'm used to holding it in the center to strike with both sides



He's using a fairly short staff ...maybe about 5 feet long. With a 4' to 5' stick/staff there's not really length to get full benefit from a center grip. With a 6' staff we use center grip or end grip depending on the situation. If you have a lot of room, the end grip works well. In tighter confines the center grip has advantages. I practice both ways.

Now with a long pole, specifically the WC luk dim boon kwun which runs  8 1/2 to nine feet in length, we only use the end grip, basically like a long spear.

And then of course, there are people who train with really long poles, like heavy renaissance era pikes running up to 20 feet in length. Can you imagine walking around with one of them? Or going into an elevator? Have to take the stairs I guess.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 29, 2019)

I had learned a 2 men staff form when I was 11. It contains only 3 combos:

The 1st combo is:

- Right side hit on opponent's face. Opponent blocks.
- Left side hit on his groin, Opponent blocks.
- Left side hit on his head. Opponent block.
- Release right hand and swing staff to his head.

If this combo is repeated on the opposite side, and also train on both offense and defense, this combo can be expanded into 4 parts.

IMO, this is a good way to train the staff technique. Unfortunately, people just don't train the ancient cold weapon through the "partner drill" any more. The solo form training seem to be more popular today.

In CMA, the staff is also called "2 heads snake". Of course you can also hold on one end and use it as a spear.

Picture of "left side hit opponent's head".







Here is one of my favor staff techniques.


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## geezer (Sep 29, 2019)

geezer said:


> And then of course, there are people who train with really long poles, like heavy renaissance era pikes running up to 20 feet in length. Can you imagine walking around with one of them? Or going into an elevator? Have to take the stairs I guess.



Well I checked that out online, and the first to use the really long, heavy pike in war were the Greek Macedonians under Philip the Great. Their 20 foot long "sarissas" were joined with a metal tube in the center so they could be disassembled and carried more conveniently. Those Greeks (even the rough Macedonians) were pretty dang sharp.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 29, 2019)

geezer said:


> Lately I've dug out my old rattan staffs and dusted of some old forms and drills, and have even been teaching a couple of students the basics. One of the students spent many years in his younger days back in the 70s and 80s doing hard, old school TKD, and had some training with a _bo._ Ironically, he really struggles with the Escrima staff work we do.
> 
> My own background is mainly Escrima and Wing Chun, so my staff work, especially power generation is very different. And that seems to be the problem. For example when gripping the staff in the center (as compared to using one end) we tend to favor the double palm-down grip, stand and basically move a lot like a boxer.
> 
> ...


1st thought.  I'm glad I have a decent understanding of how to use the staff prior to watching the video.

In some of the strikes, I thought about the bending motion of a staff in Chinese martial arts.  In Chinese staffs the goal is often to get the end of the staff to bend.  If you have a good solid staff then this is really difficult to do.    It's easier when you have a staff this size.  Instead of hitting the person on the right side of the face my strike would be on the left side of the face.  The benefit of this is that the first strike pulls the person in the same direction that my 2nd strike will come from.

In the Op's video you'll notice that the guy flinches to the right. My staff would hit him just as quickly has he flinched.  In addition my staff is in a good position to prevent my opponent from using his staff.  While I can still use mine and attack at will.  





But back to the point.  In the drills that I did we would use that same whipping motion to strike at a weapon or person (concept of striking a person).  Instead of moving in a circular motion we would just whip the staff along a linear path to strike again.  For example, I would knock a staff away and then whip it back towards my enemy's face. No need to add circular movements.

Other than just different approaches, it's always good to see a functional staff video.


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## geezer (Sep 29, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Unfortunately, people just don't train the ancient weapon through the "partner drill" any more. The solo form training seem to be more popular today.



I like_ both_ solo and partner training. For solo work I work with various staffs ranging from about five feet to seven feet long. The seven footer is 1 3/4 inch diameter rattan and is fairly heavy. Moving it really helps my engage my whole body. You won't find anybody doing lame twirls with that piece of lumber. The smaller staffs allow me to try different grips and move faster.

As for partner drilling, I like having my partner feed hard blows so I can test my defensive structure, and then se if I can rebound into the attack before he can set up his next strike.

What I haven't been doing is free sparring. And that's really necessary. I just have to get a training partner ready and get cracking. Literally!


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 29, 2019)

geezer said:


> He's using a fairly short staff ...maybe about 5 feet long. With a 4' to 5' stick/staff there's not really length to get full benefit from a center grip. With a 6' staff we use center grip or end grip depending on the situation. If you have a lot of room, the end grip works well. In tighter confines the center grip has advantages. I practice both ways.
> 
> Now with a long pole, specifically the WC luk dim boon kwun which runs  8 1/2 to nine feet in length, we only use the end grip, basically like a long spear.
> 
> And then of course, there are people who train with really long poles, like heavy renaissance era pikes running up to 20 feet in length. Can you imagine walking around with one of them? Or going into an elevator? Have to take the stairs I guess.


Jow Ga Sifu teaching student how to use a long staff.  Not as long as WCs Long Pole.





Same Jow Ga Sifu using a Long Pole.  Bend that he gets out of this staff is unreal, it's not one of those performance flimsy thin staffs





The long staff is one of the heavy weapons I want to learn.


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## geezer (Sep 29, 2019)

JowGaWolf said:


> .



Great video. Now if you are going to twirl a staff ...Dang! _Thats_ the way to do it!

Regarding the springy Chinese staff. Some staffs are slender and springy, others are not. If you have the whippy stuff, of course you are going to use it. I can't even imagine how much getting snapped with that kinda staff would _hurt!!!
_
Interestingly, in Latosa's Escrima, a lot of the weapons training trasfers very closely to the empty hands usage_. _And his Cadena de Mano is very akin to boxing  ...and not so close to the Wing Chun, which is my foundation. Yet working both arts has helped me understand a lot more about different kinetic linkages, ways to develop and deliver power, and so forth. And I've actually found similarities that are not outwardly apparent.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 29, 2019)

geezer said:


> Latosa's Escrima, a lot of the weapons training trasfers very closely to the empty hands usage_._


 I was experimenting with my staff form one day and I wondered what it would look like if I converted it to an empty hands form. 

It was a unique experience but very difficult to do on the fly trying to translate hand positions into a functional empty hand position.  One thing that I discovered is that their were a quite a few chambered fists my translation of the staff form into empty hand


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 29, 2019)

geezer said:


> The smaller staffs allow me to try different grips and move faster.


I like to use cooper pole as my staff for 2 reasons.

1. The weight make me to feel good.
2. Since my hands can't hold it over it completely, when my opponent's staff tries to slide on my fingers, I can let his staff to slide off my pole.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 29, 2019)

JowGaWolf said:


> I was experimenting with my staff form one day and I wondered what it would look like if I converted it to an empty hands form.


I have tried to do that too.

There is a move in my "hand striking pole" form that I use vertical block on my opponent's staff (or spear) stabbing. I then release my top holding hand and hit his head with one end. When he blocks my head strike, I then jump in and hit his head with the other end.

This is the same as to use an outside in block followed by a back fist strike. When my opponent uses outside in block on my right back fist, I then use my left hay-make to hit his head.

My next strike depends on how my opponent may block my previous strike. this principle is the same for both open hand and weapon.


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## donald1 (Sep 30, 2019)

geezer said:


> He's using a fairly short staff ...maybe about 5 feet long. With a 4' to 5' stick/staff there's not really length to get full benefit from a center grip. With a 6' staff we use center grip or end grip depending on the situation. If you have a lot of room, the end grip works well. In tighter confines the center grip has advantages. I practice both ways.
> 
> Now with a long pole, specifically the WC luk dim boon kwun which runs  8 1/2 to nine feet in length, we only use the end grip, basically like a long spear.
> 
> And then of course, there are people who train with really long poles, like heavy renaissance era pikes running up to 20 feet in length. Can you imagine walking around with one of them? Or going into an elevator? Have to take the stairs I guess.


I can't even imagine using a 20 ft staff. Turning it the way you would a 6 ft staff would probably be either difficult or impossible. Also I guess you could take the escalator?


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 30, 2019)

donald1 said:


> Turning it the way you would a 6 ft staff would probably be either difficult or impossible.


  Probably a little bit of both.  Those 2 things and impractical

holy crap.. I just found an old Jow Ga movie tell-tale jow ga opening.  He does some of the same moves that are done with a double head staff, you can see the difficulty of it.  If I had to guess, It's a transition from long range to short range.





Man that's a long form.. Guess who is learning parts of a new form this year lol.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 30, 2019)

This is not me, this is Di Gouyong, but this is th last staff form that I did and sing the entire body is the only way it works 






More recently all I have used the staff for was shaking for internal and full body training some of which is in this video (also not me)


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 30, 2019)

Xue Sheng said:


> This is not me, this is Di Gouyong, but this is th last staff form that I did and sing the entire body is the only way it works
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Makes me want to train..  I have to remind myself I'm still doing rehab for my back


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 30, 2019)

JowGaWolf said:


> Makes me want to train..  I have to remind myself I'm still doing rehab for my back



Once the knee starts working right again I am thinking of returning to pole shaking. I do miss the 5 elements staff, but I doubt I will return to it anytime soon.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 30, 2019)

It's easy to tell that the northern CMA staff form has different flavor than the southern CMA staff form.


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## Blindside (Sep 30, 2019)




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## geezer (Sep 30, 2019)

Blindside: Thanks for those awesome Dog Brothers clips. Lonely Dog is amazing. That's some real stickfighting.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 30, 2019)

Blindside said:


>


Their staff fighting is more like long sword definitely not CMA


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## hoshin1600 (Sep 30, 2019)

so from what i see in the escrima video he is using a rattan staff. the weight of the staff is super light. this allows multiple hits and you can reverse your direction, pulling back to hit again.  the TKD student is most likely used to a version derived from Okinawan Bo use.  these are thick heavy oak by comparison. you cant use the two weapons the same. if i tried to imitate what i saw in that video my joints would be killing me after a few hours of practice not to mention the vibration in my hands would make my hands numb.
with oak weapons im not a big fan of smashing the weapons together like shown in the clip. im not going to critique the clip but i would suspect your students past is a reflection of the training methodology for the more solid heavier weapon.


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## Blindside (Sep 30, 2019)

JowGaWolf said:


> Their staff fighting is more like long sword definitely not CMA



Dog Brothers Gatherings aren't style specific, though most of the fighters come from a FMA dominated background.  Some of them do not like Gong Fu Dog


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 30, 2019)

JowGaWolf said:


> Their staff fighting is more like long sword definitely not CMA


Agree! those clips look more like Ancient European double hands sword technique. Those sword can be as long as 6 feet.


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## geezer (Oct 1, 2019)

hoshin1600 said:


> so from what i see in the escrima video he is using a rattan staff. the weight of the staff is super light. this allows multiple hits and you can reverse your direction, pulling back to hit again.  the TKD student is most likely used to a version derived from Okinawan Bo use.  these are thick heavy oak by comparison. you cant use the two weapons the same. if i tried to imitate what i saw in that video my joints would be killing me after a few hours of practice not to mention the vibration in my hands would make my hands numb.
> with oak weapons im not a big fan of smashing the weapons together like shown in the clip. im not going to critique the clip but i would suspect your students past is a reflection of the training methodology for the more solid heavier weapon.



In the Filipino martial arts, rattan is used for training, while hardwoods (like bahi and kamagong) were reserved for fighting. You might draw a rough parallel to the use of shinai versus boken. Rattan is cheap, strong and can be used to bash stick against stick in training, where as hardwood can break and even shatter. So the real objective is not to hit the stick, but your opponent. The video that I posted at the beginning wasn't advocating stick smashing! It _did _illustrate a different approach to generating explosive power though.

BTW, although rattan is generally lighter than hardwoods, it does vary depending on type and density. The larger rattan staffs we have used, especially the 7 foot by 1 3/4 in. raw, unskinned rattan are _pretty hefty,_ and weigh more than the typical 6 foot oak bo with tapered ends that are sold at our local martial arts supply store. Actually, my concern about my student was that, for a much bigger guy than I am, he was not so effective at power generation, especially with the heavier staff.

Incidentally, I personally have scaled back to a somewhat lighter 6 foot by 1 1/2 inch raw rattan staff to save wear and tear on my joints. So your point is well taken.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 1, 2019)

Blindside said:


> Dog Brothers Gatherings aren't style specific, though most of the fighters come from a FMA dominated background.  Some of them do not like Gong Fu Dog


Thanks.  For the video That's definitely CMA.  The swings aren't big, lots of stabs, and combo attacks.  With CMA systems (not sure about the others) If I see one attack coming then I can assume that 2 or 3 more will follow soon after.  The big swings are reserved for multiple opponents.

The most difficult thing I've ever had to deal with a staff training was to avoid the second attack within a combo.


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## geezer (Oct 20, 2019)

JowGaWolf said:


> The most difficult thing I've ever had to deal with a staff training was to avoid the *second attack *within a combo.



I just re-read this thread and this last comment caught my eye. I agree completely, and it's because the first strike is often a set up. If you react and block it, you are that much more open for next attack in the combo ...and especially with a staff or spear held at one end. That's because with the one-end grip the attacker can move the tip of a long weapon very fast. Often faster than the defender can react can respond. Check out the first segment of the following video from about 1:45 -2:30. Regardless of whatever weapon you are using, the tip of a spear or staff is too fast to "chase".






One way to solve this problem of dealing with the second strike in a combo is to _steal the offence_. Make your defense _offensive._

In Wing Chun we often talk about _lin siu di dar _or "simultaneous defense and attack", and also say, _da sau juk si siu sau _or "attacking hand is defending hand". This strategy isn't just for empty hands work. Its in the WC long pole, _luk dim boon kwun_. Similarly, in Latosa Escrima, while _evasion_ (not blocking) and simultaneous counterstriking is optimal,  when we do "block" we try to employ what we call _interference striking. _That is, we make the defending move into the attacking move.

If you can effectively counter the initial attack with a simultaneous and aggressive counterattack, you have just pre-empted the second strike in your opponent's combo. Now he has to contend with _your _combo!


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## Flying Crane (Oct 21, 2019)

geezer said:


> I just re-read this thread and this last comment caught my eye. I agree completely, and it's because the first strike is often a set up. If you react and block it, you are that much more open for next attack in the combo ...and especially with a staff or spear held at one end. That's because with the one-end grip the attacker can move the tip of a long weapon very fast. Often faster than the defender can react can respond. Check out the first segment of the following video from about 1:45 -2:30. Regardless of whatever weapon you are using, the tip of a spear or staff is too fast to "chase".
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Very interesting and entertaining video, thanks for sharing that.
In Chinese martial arts, spear is often called “king of weapons” because it is so effective.  Two-man weapon sets are often spear vs. another weapon, because the spear is the primary weapon to beat.

I love the spear, I think it is tremendously effective.  In the video, the use of spear and shield together was not terribly effective.  Wielding a spear with one hand is very clumsy, so that is not surprising.  I wonder if a small shield, perhaps buckler-sized, and maybe oblong, attached to each of the forearms, leaving both hands free to continue with a two-handed technique, could have been effective.  It could provide for some blocking and deflecting capabilities, without mandating a full commitment to a less effective single-handed technique with the spear.


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## geezer (Oct 21, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> In the video, the use of spear and shield together was not terribly effective.  Wielding a spear with one hand is very clumsy, so that is not surprising.



I'm no expert on HEMA or the history of war, but it is my understanding that spear and shield was the norm for warfare in _group formations._ With trained teams it was apparently quite effective. Dueling, as you noted, was a different matter.

Now bringing this back to _staff _fighting, if I have the room, I prefer to use the long (one end) grip and stab a lot _as though it were a spear_. A stabbing thrust with a heavy staff packs a heck of a punch.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 21, 2019)

geezer said:


> I'm no expert on HEMA or the history of war, but it is my understanding that spear and shield was the norm for warfare in _group formations._ With trained teams it was apparently quite effective. Dueling, as you noted, was a different matter.
> 
> Now bringing this back to _staff _fighting, if I have the room, I prefer to use the long (one end) grip and stab a lot _as though it were a spear_. A stabbing thrust with a heavy staff packs a heck of a punch.


I believe you are correct about the formation, but it requires a lot more soldiers than the four or so used in the video, in order to make the formation effective.  They need multiple rows, and the ability to have a wide line that isn’t easily circumvented.

In a four-on-four melee, the formation dissolves instantly and it essentially becomes a free-for-all.

Regarding the spear-like techniques used with a staff, I believe that tends to be adopted/modified spear techniques.  It makes sense to have that kind of cross-over.  One of our staff sets is essentially that: mostly all modified spear.

Our school teaches (that I am aware of) three staff sets (of which I have learned two, but have seen the third many times) and one spear set (I would not be surprised if Sifu knows more than these, however).  It is my opinion that knowing these together gives one a very functional ability with a long weapon.  It is very useful.


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## Bill Mattocks (Oct 23, 2019)

Tokumine no kun.
Urashi no kun.
Shishi no kun.

These are the bo weapons kata I practice. I'm not overly fond of no, I prefer sai. However, they are quite useful and good training. As mentioned, weapons kata informs empty hand training if you look for the value.


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## geezer (Oct 27, 2019)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Tokumine no kun.
> Urashi no kun.
> Shishi no kun.
> These are the bo weapons kata I practice. I'm not overly fond of no, I prefer sai. However, they are quite useful and good training. As mentioned, weapons kata informs empty hand training if you look for the value.



I found several Youtube clips of each and picked examples demonstrated by different individuals. I hope I chose well enough. They are fairly complex, especially when taken collectively. Bill, if you have mastered all three of these, you clearly have spent a good deal of time working with the bo ...even if you "prefer the sai". (Geezer bows deeply).


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 27, 2019)

geezer said:


> I found several Youtube clips of each and picked examples demonstrated by different individuals. I hope I chose well enough. They are fairly complex, especially when taken collectively. Bill, if you have mastered all three of these, you clearly have spent a good deal of time working with the bo ...even if you "prefer the sai". (Geezer bows deeply).


It was really nice to see real staffs being used and not those tooth picks that we see so often.  I hadn't thought about it before, but I can see the chambered fist here.  Just an observation, people always ask about what's the purpose of the chambered fist.  Maybe it helps train the drawing back of a staff. 

The power of a staff swing is Push - Pull. The faster one can pull back on the staff the more striking power it will have.  I've noticed this in my own staff training where earlier on in my training I tried to generate power with the hand that's moving forward.  That all changed when I pulled back on the stick has hard as I could, and I found that the power was significantly more.

Thanks for the video.  I usually don't enjoy karate bo staff kata but I definitely enjoyed this one.


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## isshinryuronin (Oct 27, 2019)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Tokumine no kun.
> Urashi no kun.
> Shishi no kun.
> 
> These are the bo weapons kata I practice. I'm not overly fond of no, I prefer sai. However, they are quite useful and good training. As mentioned, weapons kata informs empty hand training if you look for the value.


  Tokomine is my favorite.  Urashi is much like Tokomine, but longer and a little repetitious on its main series (but that's good for practice).  Shishi is just plain long, but challenging.  I like them all, but I, too, enjoy the sai, when I use a well balanced set. 
  Watching the video of Taira Shinken (perhaps Okinawa's last true great kobudo master) really helped me in using body movement with the sai - very inspirational.  Many times I see practitioners using weapons with just their arms, thinking the weapon will do all the work, but the key to all weapon effectiveness is in the body motion.  As a side benefit, I've found using the body more helps keep your arms from getting tired.
  I'm not sure why, but working with weapons puts me in a different place, internally, than when working empty hand kata.  I found that to be true in iaido, especially.  Has anyone else felt this?


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## Bill Mattocks (Oct 29, 2019)

geezer said:


> I found several Youtube clips of each and picked examples demonstrated by different individuals. I hope I chose well enough. They are fairly complex, especially when taken collectively. Bill, if you have mastered all three of these, you clearly have spent a good deal of time working with the bo ...even if you "prefer the sai". (Geezer bows deeply).



Mastered, no. It is a requirement for 3rd dan to be able to perform the entire empty hand and kobudo system. But I have the rest of my life to practice. I suspect mastery will elude me.


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