# Biu Jee Form Sections



## DanT (Oct 29, 2017)

How do you guys break up your Biu Jee form?

For example for us it's:

Section 1: Start of Form till Single Gwai Jeung, Biu Sau, Low Palm Strike, Man Sau, Chum Sau, Talk Sau.

Section 2: Triple Gan Sau till end of Triple Man Sau Part

Section 3: Triple Biu Sau till End of Form


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## geezer (Oct 29, 2017)

The European branch of my lineage has a _very_ precise and detailed curriculum with each of the forms broken into a larger number of sets. I tend to go along more with the original Hong Kong curriculum which teaches the forms (at least SNT, Chum Kiu, and Biu Tze) in 3 larger groups of movements.

The three sections_ I use_ for Biu Tze are the same as what you have listed, although each of those is broken down into subsets. For example, in the first subset, there is the opening set culminating in the punch and "wagging fingers", followed by a long section with the "12 elbows" (6x kup jarn, 4x gwai jarn and 2x pai jarn), then the 3 high-low gaun sau movements, along with the 3 kwun-sau and 5 "thunder punches".  And each of these subsets, in turn, will be broken into smaller, more manageable pieces.

Finally, application is drilled in a group of chi-sau "sets" focusing on specific groups of movements.

BTW, _some_ of these movements are modifications my old sifu added to the basic Yip Man set in the 1980s after several trips to the mainland to work with some of the early students of GM Yip in Fo'shan who were still alive and active at that time. LT, through his political connections, was one of the first of the Hong Kong WC community to gain access to travel behind what was then still called "he "Bamboo Curtain" to compare mainland and Hong Kong WC.

Among the modifications and additions to the Biu Tze form made at that time were: breaking the elbow set into kup, gwai and pai jarn, the addition of the kwun-sau sequence following the gaun sau movements, and the five "thunder punches".


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## DanT (Oct 29, 2017)

geezer said:


> The European branch of my lineage has a _very_ precise and detailed curriculum with each of the forms broken into a larger number of sets. I tend to go along more with the original Hong Kong curriculum which teaches the forms (at least SNT, Chum Kiu, and Biu Tze) in 3 larger groups of movements.
> 
> The three sections_ I use_ for Biu Tze are the same as what you have listed, although each of those is broken down into subsets. For example, in the first subset, there is the opening set culminating in the punch and "wagging fingers", followed by a long section with the "12 elbows" (6x kup jarn, 4x gwai jarn and 2x pai jarn), then the 3 high-low gaun sau movements, along with the 3 kwun-sau and 5 "thunder punches".  And each of these subsets, in turn, will be broken into smaller, more manageable pieces.
> 
> ...


I like this way of thinking. We teach individual combinations and then combine them into the subsection of the form. Then we combine the 3 subsections and make it into one form. Making it manageable to teach and learn is important. For each section we teach in the air, we give examples for usage in Chi Sau, and applications in Sparring. Students should be required to practice the combos in Chi Sau, 2 Man Drills, and Sparring as much as they do it in the air.


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## wingchun100 (Nov 1, 2017)

Forgive the lack of proper and/or technical terms.


Opening, first punches, flicking the wrist up and down then sideways (never heard the Chinese name for this), chamber
Three turning elbows, step with Biu Jee, three circle steps
Elbow, low palm strike, etc.
Elbow, high palm
3 biu saos, turn with palm strike
Fak saos out to the side, then huen to jut
High and low gan saos
Lop sao
"Loser hands," where you bend down and then stand back up, punches, finish


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## ShortBridge (Nov 2, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> Forgive the lack of proper and/or technical terms.
> ...
> "Loser hands,"...



That's a new one for me.


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## geezer (Nov 2, 2017)

ShortBridge said:


> That's a new one for me.



No worse than calling it "picking up the soap" I guess.


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## ShortBridge (Nov 2, 2017)

Do we have a proper name for that section/technique? It's been a while since I've researched/read about/been in a discussion about that bit of the form. I'd "do a search" before starting a new thread, but wouldn't even know what to search on. 

I'm sure it's been discussed and debated here before.


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## DanT (Nov 2, 2017)

ShortBridge said:


> Do we have a proper name for that section/technique? It's been a while since I've researched/read about/been in a discussion about that bit of the form. I'd "do a search" before starting a new thread, but wouldn't even know what to search on.
> 
> I'm sure it's been discussed and debated here before.


In my lineage we refer to it as "Sam Bai Fut" (Three Bows to Buddha).


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## geezer (Nov 2, 2017)

DanT said:


> In my lineage we refer to it as "Sam Bai Fut" (Three Bows to Buddha).



Usually that name, _Saam Pai Fut_  or three prayers to Buddha is applied to the tan/ fook-sau wu-sau sequence in Siu Nim Tau. Besides, isn't bow-down pronounced _kow?  _...as in to kowtow to someone?


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## DanT (Nov 2, 2017)

geezer said:


> Usually that name, _Saam Pai Fut_  or three prayers to Buddha is applied to the tan/ fook-sau wu-sau sequence in Siu Nim Tau. Besides, isn't bow-down pronounced _kow?  _...as in to kowtow to someone?


I know that section is called that as well. We call the last section of Biu Jee "Sam Bai Fut" to show that the hands are pressed together in a "praying" motion.


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## geezer (Nov 2, 2017)

DanT said:


> I know that section is called that as well. We call the last section of Biu Jee "Sam Bai Fut" to show that the hands are pressed together in a "praying" motion.



That makes sense. ....We don't press our hands together like that.


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## DanT (Nov 2, 2017)

geezer said:


> That makes sense. ....We don't press our hands together like that.


That explains the confusion then.


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## ShortBridge (Nov 2, 2017)

I had a thought this year, all on my own, no source to blame it on, that the "_Saam Pai Fut_ or three prayers to Buddha ... the tan/ fook-sau wu-sau sequence in Siu Nim Tau" might be a nod to San Chien/San Chan (3 Battles) that are so pervasive in Sourthern Chinese and Okinawan systems.

Again, no one to blame that half-baked theory on but myself, but I wonder how it might sit with some of you.


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## DanT (Nov 2, 2017)

ShortBridge said:


> I had a thought this year, all on my own, no source to blame it on, that the "_Saam Pai Fut_ or three prayers to Buddha ... the tan/ fook-sau wu-sau sequence in Siu Nim Tau" might be a nod to San Chien/San Chan (3 Battles) that are so pervasive in Sourthern Chinese and Okinawan systems.
> 
> Again, no one to blame that half-baked theory on but myself, but I wonder how it might sit with some of you.


Actually, the second section of SLT (specifically Fak Sao, Lan Sao, Chum Sao, Tok Sao, Jut Sao, Biu Sao) is much more reminiscent of San Jin than anything to me, especially when you preform it with power.

We actually preform the "original" San Jin as a separate exercise and usually teach it after Biu Jee. Not as a form, just an exersize.


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## ShortBridge (Nov 2, 2017)

Interesting. I see what you mean, from an expression standpoint. I was thinking more structurally.

I occasionally teach San Chien from Fuzhou Whooping Crane along with techniques, drills and concepts. I don't really require my students to know it because they are not formally crane students and I'm not formally a crane sifu, but when they are too stiff and not breathing or expressing energy the way that I want them to and I'm unable to get through that with Wing Chun lessons, I shift to Crane for 1/2 an hour or one class and then go back to Wing Chun. It works.

I love crane and aspire to be better at it. There are clearly techniques and ideas that are consistent between the two systems. Three bows = Three battles is a bit of a stretch, but it occurred to me one day.


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## DanT (Nov 2, 2017)

ShortBridge said:


> Interesting. I see what you mean, from an expression standpoint. I was thinking more structurally.
> 
> I occasionally teach San Chien from Fuzhou Whooping Crane along with techniques, drills and concepts. I don't really require my students to know it because they are not formally crane students and I'm not formally a crane sifu, but when they are too stiff and not breathing or expressing energy the way that I want them to and I'm unable to get through that with Wing Chun lessons, I shift to Crane for 1/2 an hour or one class and then go back to Wing Chun. It works.
> 
> I love crane and aspire to be better at it. There are clearly techniques and ideas that are consistent between the two systems. Three bows = Three battles is a bit of a stretch, but it occurred to me one day.


It's definitely a good exersize for breathing and also developing functional strength in the shoulders and back. Do you know the two person drill for it?


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## DanT (Nov 4, 2017)

geezer said:


> The European branch of my lineage has a _very_ precise and detailed curriculum with each of the forms broken into a larger number of sets. I tend to go along more with the original Hong Kong curriculum which teaches the forms (at least SNT, Chum Kiu, and Biu Tze) in 3 larger groups of movements.
> 
> The three sections_ I use_ for Biu Tze are the same as what you have listed, although each of those is broken down into subsets. For example, in the first subset, there is the opening set culminating in the punch and "wagging fingers", followed by a long section with the "12 elbows" (6x kup jarn, 4x gwai jarn and 2x pai jarn), then the 3 high-low gaun sau movements, along with the 3 kwun-sau and 5 "thunder punches".  And each of these subsets, in turn, will be broken into smaller, more manageable pieces.
> 
> ...


What does "5 thunder punches" refer to?


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## jlq (Nov 5, 2017)

Five Thunder punches refers to a series of moves Leung Ting added to his Biu Zhi set a long time ago, based on some things he picked up from Lun Gai.

Basically, it is a single punch, followed by two double punches with a Fung Ahn (phoenix) fist formation. He also called them "drumming" punches.


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## jlq (Nov 5, 2017)

As far as Saam Bai Fut goes, I would say it is quite a stretch of imagination to associate it with the Saam Chien of Baak Hok Kuen.

Firstly, there is a tendency to read way too much into things if one doesn't understand about Chinese culture. If you spend any significant amount of time with Chinese people in China you will find out that a lot of things which might seem odd or special to you just "are" - there really is no deep or sophisticated reasoning behind it. One such example is the so called yam yeung (Yin Yang) hands, the reason they are called this is because one is up, one is down or one is in, one is out. Very simple...But if one doesn't know that the terms Yam Yeung are commonly used in that, being particularly clever one might start seeing some connections to philosophy and Chinese medicin...

Now, Saam Bai Fat seems to be called that simply because the retracted Wu Sau looks like the way a buddhist monk prays to Buddha when using a single hand. In the form you do it three times, hence the name...

Very simple.


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## jlq (Nov 5, 2017)

ups... sorry, didn't see your post, geezer.


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## geezer (Nov 5, 2017)

DanT said:


> What does "5 thunder punches" refer to?



As jlq stated above, the "5 thunder punches" movement is a five-punch combination that LT added to his Biu Tze form back in the 80s. It consists of a straight punch, a frontal double punch, and finally, a very heavy turning double punch delivered with the hands held and moved as though swinging an axe.

It feels great to do, ending with a very strong double hit using a lot of body torque. It also looks great in demos, but in actual application I find it impractical since nobody stands still long enough to let you deliver the whole sequence (this can be seen in the clip below as well). There are occasionally times when you can set up and deliver the torquing double-punch though, and like the turning high low "scissors" gaun sau, that precedes it in the Biu Tze form, it is a good way to practice putting body torque into your technique.

Here's a clip of some guys from a WT spin-off group using the "5 thunder punches" in a choreographed "chi-sau section" (4:20-5:00, and again at 5:55-6:40):


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## Danny T (Nov 5, 2017)

geezer said:


> As jlq stated above, the "5 thunder punches" movement is a five-punch combination that LT added to his Biu Tze form back in the 80s. It consists of a straight punch, a frontal double punch, and finally, a very heavy turning double punch delivered with the hands held and moved as though swinging an axe.
> 
> It feels great to do, ending with a very strong double hit using a lot of body torque. It also looks great in demos, but in actual application I find it impractical since nobody stands still long enough to let you deliver the whole sequence (this can be seen in the clip below as well). There are occasionally times when you can set up and deliver the torquing double-punch though, and like the turning high low "scissors" gaun sau, that precedes it in the Biu Tze form, it is a good way to practice putting body torque into your technique.
> 
> Here's a clip of some guys from a WT spin-off group using the "5 thunder punches" in a choreographed "chi-sau section" (4:20-5:00, and again at 5:55-6:40):


Do you really think that combination is designed to be delivered specifically as shown? Or, that it is simply a drilling combination for possible counter attacks or follow ups if the situations allows?


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## geezer (Nov 5, 2017)

Danny T said:


> Do you really thing that combination is designed to be delivered specifically as shown? Or, that *it is simply a drilling combination for possible counter attacks or follow ups if the situations allows?*



^^^^ I'd go with the second choice, in bolded type above. In general, I still prefer simple, direct applications of striking (punching, fak saus, etc.) over anything fancier like these multiple double punch combos. Others may pull that stuff off. As for me ...well, I'm old enough and clumsy enough to be a real fan of simple techniques!


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## Danny T (Nov 5, 2017)

geezer said:


> ^^^^ I'd go with the second choice, in bolded type above. In general, I still prefer simple, direct applications of striking (punching, fak saus, etc.) over anything fancier like these multiple double punch combos. Others may pull that stuff off. As for me ...well, I'm old enough and clumsy enough to be a real fan of simple techniques!


I strongly felt you'd be in that frame of mind. Drills aren't not applications, unfortunately there are many who don't understand such.


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