# The fight response.



## Kframe (Mar 9, 2013)

Fight or fight, it all boils down to those two things.  Last night I came head to head with them.  Woke up  last night in the early am to my sister and her boyfriend having  argument. Now I live with my sister till the house im renovating is finished.  I hear a loud thud and my sister freaking out, so I leave my room and there now in the living room near the front door. My sis trying to get him to stay, he trying to leave, and me madder then a pissed off hornet.  You see several years ago, my sister extracated herself from a abusive relationship, so you can imagine how I was feeling when I heard the commotion.  He had attempted to leave there room, so she got in his way. He grabbed her arm, so she slapped him(she says pushed, but it dosent matter) so he not so gently moved her out of his way.    Cant get my post to move to the next line.. sorry for wall of text, something about this browser, my enter key wont work on this site..   

 Needless to say both were drunk.     So, im in the living room in my whitey tighties, standing between but off to the side at a angle to both of them.   It was then, as he was getting angry, but not threatening, that my fight response started.  I assumed the "subtle fight stance" that my new coach taught me. It places my hands up in a good defensive position while looking non threatening, and moved my feet to there proper fight stance place.    My heart is racing, fast my breathing is controlled but deep. The odd thing was, the intensity of the feeling was way higher then even the hardest sparring. I felt what seemed like a weird vibration in my chest, turned out to be my muscles in my upper chest  spasming.(found that odd, never happened in hard sparring)  My ability to think was altered as well. I found my thoughts narrow in scope. 

Normaly in sparring I can think ahead and visualize what im going to do or what is coming next, but I was unable to do so. When my thoughts did come, they came in quick flashes. Mostly if he does this, ill do that.  Kicking didn't even enter my mind as a response. My mind was only able to boil my responses down to a few ways.  One a slip to a duck, to a body shot with my right and weave and up to a left hook.  The other was step inside, left neutral bow, double knife block, backfist and possible palm strike to face, and the final flash was a move inside of punch, parry trap, then reversal of his arm, displace him down and wrist lock.   

 The attack I was expecting never came. The closest he came was  "bro" pat on my shoulder. It was during the "bro" pat that I had tunnel vision. All I saw for that moment was his hand and forearm. I think the tunnel vision was me focusing hard on his movements.  It took a lot of my will power to prevent a automatic response from me. That was hard.    Remember my emotional state was at a high, I was angry.  I am proud of my self control  honestly, tho I need to work more on pressure training, I should beable to maintain my fight planning during a real fight, that im disappointed in.  At its peak, my hole body was reacting to the stress. Muscles in my legs were spasming, everything, I was on a hair trigger.   I am glad for all the sparring I have done, I don't think I could have functioned at this high lvl of stress had it not been for the pressure of sparring as frequently as I had.  Im sorry for my computers problem, for some reason, on forums, it wont let me hit enter and move to another line..


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## Kframe (Mar 9, 2013)

Sorry for the wall of text, I fixed it. My browser is acting weird with this forum.


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## Cyriacus (Mar 9, 2013)

Welcome to the difference between training, and your mind telling you what it wants you to do in its now active state. The two dont always line up very much.

My advice to you: Consider how your body itself felt, and what you wanted to use it for (two totally seperate things). Learn from that information. It can be valuable. Some great stuff can be gleaned from what you think of doing without exactly thinking about it.


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## seasoned (Mar 9, 2013)

_From someones signature.

He who angers you conquers you._
*For in combat, to think is to die.*
HARD TRUTH #9: "Knowing what to do is not the same as doing it." - Force Decisions, Rory Miller
_
First ponder, then take what it's worth.  Don't train for knowledge, train to own. 

I'm in a slight hurry but will comment more later..................

_


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## Kframe (Mar 9, 2013)

Thanks Cyracious and Seasoned for the good advice, especially about listening to my body and learning from it.   I did not intend to make it sound like I was deep in thought. The whole flash thought process was only a few seconds worth from start to finish.  Most of the time I was only focused on him and his movements, not wanting to get ambushed. 

My bodies reaction to this whole thing was interesting. Cyracious you mention how my body felt, and its ability to act on my planned moves had it come to it.  I definitely felt like I was physically affected by the whole thing. The muscles in my chest, and the outer sides of my thighs were spasming non stop, my hands were shaking but only a little bit and it only happened intermittently.  I felt cold(well I was in my white tighties...) and my movements when I did move my arms felt a little jerkish. Tho it was not overly so. I feel that I would have been able to grapple had I needed to, not to mention all the punch defenses I know are all gross motor based.   Tho my arms did feel a little "heavy" as well as jerkish. 

Going based on the way my body felt, I feel I have learned a few things. Being that im only a 1 year novice at boxing/mma/grappling  I feel that my best bet for self defense would have been simple short movements. Things like my above mentioned slip duck body punch weave left hook are simple and I have done them 10000 times before.  I feel that if I had to do any grappling it should have been simple and not overly complex manuvers.  I know I would not have been able to pull off any complicated grappling. Same thing applies to my striking defenses. I do not think I would have been able to apply the new deflections(blocks) my new coach is teaching me. I would  relied on boxing almost exclusively for striking defense, because of how "simple"(gross motor) they all are. 

Now maybe with a few more years of training, that will change, but for now, im glad I maintain my boxing skills, despite having moved on from it as my only Martial art. 

Id have felt better with a baton or taser as well...


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 9, 2013)

Many people here will tell you that this sort of response is inevitable. I'm going to disagree. 
With experience, it goes away, and you deal with conflicts as calmly as you deal with anything else.
My job lands me in confrontations on a regular basis, and I've not had to deal with the fight or flight reflex in years. 
This is a good thing because it allows me to deal with a crisis using my mind, not my emotions.
Doesn't matter if it's an armed agressive patient or blood spraying to the ceiling. I'll deal with the emotional response later. In the moment, I do whatever is needed with a cool head.
Unfortunately, I don't think there is any way to train the fight or flight reflex out; supressing it comes with experience, and it's not the sort of experience that can be simulated.
I suspect some of the LEOs here will agree that they also have learned to put off the "reflex" responses till later, so that can deal with problems intelectually.


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## geezer (Mar 9, 2013)

In your OP you didn't tell us how things turned out except that you barely managed to control yourself and keep from fighting. You seem to be more focused on the affects of the adrenaline dump on your fighting abilities than on the bigger picture of how you could have defused the whole situation while insuring your sister's safety. From your description, it sounds like your sister's boyfriend was _just trying to leave_. If you had attacked him, it would have definitely made the situation worse for all of you, regardless of who won.


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## Kframe (Mar 9, 2013)

They seam to be ok for now, no one fought. You must remember, I was coming off the memory of my sis getting beaten by her  last ex.  I was not about to let that happen again while I was there. Sorry im a brother, I didn't expect for that to be held against me. I feel I did great keeping my cool. Diffusing the situation was not going to happen, seeing as they both were drunk and screaming. All I was doing was making sure no one hurt each other, I left the fight up to them. 

I was not about to attack him, he would have to had made the first move. I thought I made that clear, if not im sorry. I was not some out of control animal, how you got that from my op is odd. I was in control, I just was not prepared for the effects that kind thing had on my physically. 

 I agree he was trying to leave, but my sister was making a mistake in not letting him. Tho I feel that letting him leave at that point would have been foolish. He was very drunk, and would have gotten himself or someone else hurt by driving off.  

Honestly this post is not about the fight. I made it to address what happened when my body had a adrenalin dump or the fight response. That and all martial arts lessons that can be gleaned from my experience was what I posted about.


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## Cyriacus (Mar 9, 2013)

Dirty Dog said:


> Many people here will tell you that this sort of response is inevitable. I'm going to disagree.
> With experience, it goes away, and you deal with conflicts as calmly as you deal with anything else.



If im not mistaken, thats more becoming conditioned to whats happening to the point that you rarely if ever get to that state?



Kframe said:


> Thanks Cyracious and Seasoned for the good advice, especially about listening to my body and learning from it. I did not intend to make it sound like I was deep in thought. The whole flash thought process was only a few seconds worth from start to finish. Most of the time I was only focused on him and his movements, not wanting to get ambushed.
> 
> My bodies reaction to this whole thing was interesting. Cyracious you mention how my body felt, and its ability to act on my planned moves had it come to it.  I definitely felt like I was physically affected by the whole thing. The muscles in my chest, and the outer sides of my thighs were spasming non stop, my hands were shaking but only a little bit and it only happened intermittently. I felt cold(well I was in my white tighties...) and my movements when I did move my arms felt a little jerkish. Tho it was not overly so. I feel that I would have been able to grapple had I needed to, not to mention all the punch defenses I know are all gross motor based. Tho my arms did feel a little "heavy" as well as jerkish.
> 
> ...



A few seconds is long enough on adrenalin  Often, what snaps into your head in a splitsecond can be better than things you actually plan out.

Your deductions so far are on the right track. What youve basically got is a list of the stuff you have confidence in. Now you can feed that confidence.
For example, body punch > left hook is a simple process in and of itself. Its just right low, left high. The other movements are just what youve been trained to relate to those movements (think of it as offhand learning).

Cold and shaking, i *think* has to do with blood being distributed to your arms and legs, but that may be something else.

Best of luck 



Kframe said:


> They seam to be ok for now, no one fought. You must remember, I was coming off the memory of my sis getting beaten by her last ex. I was not about to let that happen again while I was there. Sorry im a brother, I didn't expect for that to be held against me. I feel I did great keeping my cool. Diffusing the situation was not going to happen, seeing as they both were drunk and screaming. All I was doing was making sure no one hurt each other, I left the fight up to them.
> 
> I was not about to attack him, he would have to had made the first move. I thought I made that clear, if not im sorry. I was not some out of control animal, how you got that from my op is odd. I was in control, I just was not prepared for the effects that kind thing had on my physically.
> 
> ...



In a perfect world, you would have been calm. There were ways to defuse the situation, but that wont always be everyones go-to.
Anger is a state of mind you dont always get to choose, and it has effects on the body, and thought. Go figure.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 9, 2013)

Cyriacus said:


> If im not mistaken, thats more becoming conditioned to whats happening to the point that you rarely if ever get to that state?



To some extent, yes. But to some degree it may also be inborn. 
I've never been one that gets rattled easily and as far back as I can remember, I've always pretty much shut down emotions in a crisis.

A long time ago, in a galaxy far far away, I was a Boy Scout Tenderfoot at a summer camp. During this camp, we were told that we were going to practice our orienteering. We took maps, compass, etc, and started on a hike. We were given directions of "go this direction so far, then go this direction so far, then..." and the contest was to see which group of boys would arrive closest to the target destination.

So we walk around a bluff, and there are three guys laying on the ground, apparently a climbing accident. One had brain matter exposed. One had a broken arm with arterial bleeding. One had a broken leg and his intestines coming out through a hole in his belly.
Bear in mind I am the smallest, youngest (I think I might have been 10 or 11...) and newest person in the group. People freaked out. In my head I looked at the guy with the brains out and said "he's dead...", grabbed the biggest kid in the group and made him put pressure on the arterial bleed, told the others to give me water and cloth to cover the guys guts, and told one to run, not walk, back to camp to get help.

The leaders had never told us that we were going to be tested on First Aid during the hike. This troop was on a military base in Spain, and they'd gotten a moulage kit from the base to set this up and see how we would respond.

I didn't really have any emotional response until the leaders stepped out from where they were hiding/watching. *AFTER* it was all over, my hands shook and I had to sit down. During the event? Nothing.


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## Cyriacus (Mar 9, 2013)

Dirty Dog said:


> To some extent, yes. But to some degree it may also be inborn.
> I've never been one that gets rattled easily and as far back as I can remember, I've always pretty much shut down emotions in a crisis.
> 
> A long time ago, in a galaxy far far away, I was a Boy Scout Tenderfoot at a summer camp. During this camp, we were told that we were going to practice our orienteering. We took maps, compass, etc, and started on a hike. We were given directions of "go this direction so far, then go this direction so far, then..." and the contest was to see which group of boys would arrive closest to the target destination.
> ...



I dont doubt that, and i appreciate the information.
I cant really speak for how i react to things, since i havent really been in a situation to do so for a long, long time.


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## jks9199 (Mar 9, 2013)

Dirty Dog said:


> Many people here will tell you that this sort of response is inevitable. I'm going to disagree.
> With experience, it goes away, and you deal with conflicts as calmly as you deal with anything else.
> My job lands me in confrontations on a regular basis, and I've not had to deal with the fight or flight reflex in years.
> This is a good thing because it allows me to deal with a crisis using my mind, not my emotions.
> ...



The OP was adrenalized.  He's done a nice job describing it.

It is inevitable, under the proper situation.  What happens is that, with experience and training, the intensity of the stimulus needed to trigger the response moves higher up the scale.  You can see the same sort of thing happening in a martial arts class.  Remember the butterflies and virtual terror the first time you sparred?  or maybe your first tournament?  But, after a while, doing it again and again, it became just a thing you do...  Well, the same sort of thing happens with the adrenal response to a violent situation.

I freely admit that I froze the first time I dealt with a real violent situation at work.  That night, I wouldn't have told you I froze.  But, especially in hindsight, I did.  I was in a warm, fuzzy place, moving slowly and it was perfectly rational to me, at that moment, why I wasn't doing anything else.  Then, when I was told what to do, the freeze broke, and I stepped up.  Today?  The other night, we responded to a guy with a knife.  I was calm, in control, and can tell you exactly what I did each step of the way, leading to him being arrested without injury.  Or I can tell you exactly what happened with the knucklehead who bucked and got to ride the lightening a few months ago.  Where the OP's needle pegged at 10 quickly... mine goes to 11 now.  And moves up there much more slowly.

Emotional responses are something completely different; they come from a different place.  The adrenalization is the lizard brain.  It's instinctive, and the way we control it is to learn how to keep it from being fully engaged.  Emotional responses come from the monkey brain.  We learn to control that by not letting the monkey take the reins.  Like you said -- it's displaced.  (And sometimes, just not even triggered.  We cops get to be cold bastards about some stuff... we see it too much.)


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## mook jong man (Mar 9, 2013)

Kframe said:


> Thanks Cyracious and Seasoned for the good advice, especially about listening to my body and learning from it.   I did not intend to make it sound like I was deep in thought. The whole flash thought process was only a few seconds worth from start to finish.  Most of the time I was only focused on him and his movements, not wanting to get ambushed.
> 
> My bodies reaction to this whole thing was interesting. Cyracious you mention how my body felt, and its ability to act on my planned moves had it come to it.  I definitely felt like I was physically affected by the whole thing. The muscles in my chest, and the outer sides of my thighs were spasming non stop, my hands were shaking but only a little bit and it only happened intermittently.  I felt cold(well I was in my white tighties...) and my movements when I did move my arms felt a little jerkish. Tho it was not overly so. I feel that I would have been able to grapple had I needed to, not to mention all the punch defenses I know are all gross motor based.   Tho my arms did feel a little "heavy" as well as jerkish.
> 
> ...



Might be beneficial to do some type of scenario training , to go some ways towards immunising against the inevitable adrenal dump.
To get the best effect you need training partners that can act really well , complete with posturing movements , faces filled with rage , personal insults and lots of swearing.
Not everyone is comfortable with this type of training , but that is mainly the point of it.

One of my old instructors gets students to do an exercise where the training partners start off forehead to forehead , the nominated aggressor will start swearing and yelling abuse at the other guy.
The goal of the other guy is to stay as  calm as he can and just ignore the torrent of abuse , while they still stay contacting forehead to forehead.
After about a minute the defender will start to slowly extend his arms into a fence position to move the other guy back , not shove him back , but just slowly extend the arms.

From there you could continue the exercise with de-escalation talk , pre-emptive striking , or the aggressor initiating an attack.


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## Kframe (Mar 9, 2013)

SO the question for me now is, I know for me, that my training program is working. Im kinda shocked that when the poo hits the fan, I default to boxing, but I should not be surprised, its what I have the most time in.  

So my question is, do I need more sparring of harder intensity to push my needle up more as JKS says?   Will regular practice at the gym help the problem?  

My training typically runs like this. After  conditioning,  we will run through one of my favorite drills, striking defense. We spend a few rounds doing all of our defenses. Coach straps on gloves and starts swinging, my job is to not get hit. He will randomly call out things he wants me to do, say pick, or duck or slip and I have to do it.  We usually start with a few rounds of my boxing defense skills, then we move on to the new deflections he teaches me. Now I like this drill because I rep each defense ALOT, close to 50+ reps for each defense depending on which one.  I love the fact that if I mess up I get hit. Instant feed back. Tho he dosnt hit me that hard, hard enough to not be comfortable about light sparring with gloves power level. 

We rep our standing and ground grappling the same way. First with no resistance then with increasing resistance. 
So do I need more time in sparring, or am I on the right coarse?


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## Kframe (Mar 9, 2013)

Geezer, I tried to de escalate it as much as possible. Being that they were drunk made it very difficult, on top of my adrenaline.  I was unsucsessfull in defusing my sister, she would not back down and was only making things worse. I did the one thing I knew to work. I called my Father, and he came over. He and my sister have a special bond and he can talk to her far better then I can. The moment I did that, things calmed down(sorta, lol not much, but the fever pitch was waning. and they were sobering up) My dad arrived and he drove boyfriend to his house and they talked and slept it off.  Sure I had to call my dad, but honestly it was the only way to get my sister to back off.   

I was not sure how to proceed with de escalating the situation, considering that neither side was listening to me or each other.  I was unsure what to do after that.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 9, 2013)

Personally, I don't think so. If you're not born with a high needle, then simulations won't adjust it, not to any significant extent. You're not going to have the physiologic response unless it's real. Or (as in the story I posted) you at least think it's real.
This might help...




For a price, I'll come randomly attack you...


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## Chris Parker (Mar 10, 2013)

From an older post of mine, in a similar thread:



Chris Parker said:


> I think the first thing that needs to be understood is exactly what the Fight, Flight or Freeze response actually is, and why "knowing what to do" doesn't necessarily help matters at all.
> 
> In essence, it's a survival mechanism. When you get suddenly and seriously adrenalised, the higher functions of your brain shut down, and your survival programming kicks in. It basically assesses where the cause of the adrenaline dump is, how far away it is, and gives you the response that is deemed (from a survival point of view, honed over hundreds of thousands of generations), which is basically that if there is distance between you and the cause of the adrenaline, try to escape (flight), if not, then engage it (fight). You know when you hear a siren, or car tyres screetching, and you stop for a second? That's your survival brain assessing the next step. And once it has assessed, then it looks for a powerful response in whichever skill is required.
> 
> ...



How do you train for it? I'm going to go against Dirty Dog here, and say that yes, simulations can absolutely help. Provided they give a realistic sense of the adrenaline (often to a lesser degree, but can, and should, be scaled up), then they do help a lot.

The thing is, the form of adrenaline found in sparring is very different to the adrenaline experienced in a sudden, violent assault... so sparring, believe it or not, is not a very good analogue for handling a violent assault. Oh, and when you mentioned that you defaulted to boxing, it wasn't that you had more time in it, it was that you (unconsciously) believe that it is more powerful. That's really it. Under the adrenaline, you went to what you (unconsciously) believe is the most powerful... and media (movies, television etc) have reinforced that belief. Honestly, I'm far from surprised that you'd default to it...


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## jks9199 (Mar 10, 2013)

Kframe said:


> So my question is, do I need more sparring of harder intensity to push my needle up more as JKS says?   Will regular practice at the gym help the problem?



No.  You need the right sort of training, which means several different things.  Part of it is scenario training, done right, with people who know what they are doing to do it.  Lots of stuff gets done and called scenario training -- and is most definitely not doing what they think it is.  See the drill described above, which included practicing standing literally nose to nose with someone, and letting them yell and insult you...  Think about what that's really teaching and practicing; are you ingraining a response that will be beneficial?  

Sparring, unless you and your partners are really going to try to kill each other, won't help.  It'll ingrain bad ideas and thoughts.  Here's just one:  You're sparring someone, you get in, tag 'em, and get out, right?  Even if you KO 'em... what do you do?  In a real violent encounter -- what should you be doing?  Are they the same?  

As a starting point, review material from Rory Miller, Marc MacYoung, Bruce Siddle, Kenneth Murray, and Dave Grossman.  Peyton Quinn has good stuff, too...


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## mook jong man (Mar 11, 2013)

jks9199 said:


> No.  You need the right sort of training, which means several different things.  Part of it is scenario training, done right, with people who know what they are doing to do it. _* Lots of stuff gets done and called scenario training -- and is most definitely not doing what they think it is.  See the drill described above, which included practicing standing literally nose to nose with someone, and letting them yell and insult you...  Think about what that's really teaching and practicing; are you ingraining a response that will be beneficial?  *_
> 
> Sparring, unless you and your partners are really going to try to kill each other, won't help.  It'll ingrain bad ideas and thoughts.  Here's just one:  You're sparring someone, you get in, tag 'em, and get out, right?  Even if you KO 'em... what do you do?  In a real violent encounter -- what should you be doing?  Are they the same?
> 
> _*As a starting point, review material from Rory Miller, Marc MacYoung, Bruce Siddle, Kenneth Murray, and Dave Grossman.  Peyton Quinn has good stuff, too...*_




That exercise is used by one of my old instructors who at one stage was head of Australian Krav Maga under Eyal Yanilov.
The exercise is a desensitisation experience , only one of many drills , most of them are done from the fence position , but for a brief time this is done in close.
It is beneficial , in that the person will get somewhat used to being yelled and sworn at and will be able to remain calm under pressure and try and think tactically instead of freaking out when targeted by in your face aggression.

All the self defence gurus seem to be American on your list.
You might not believe it mate , but there are actually other people in the world that are doing good work in this area , not just Americans.


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## Mauthos (Mar 11, 2013)

I believe in scenario training, as I do think it can provide an insight into how you would probably react in a real situation.  The usual 'bullring' idea works for my students, basically surround you in a circle with everyone jeering and shouting from the outside.  1 attacks and only stops attacking once you have got them to the ground, then another attacks.  Obviously this in then stepped up that the time between the attackers gets shorter and shorter, so at some point the guy in the middle will have to deal with multiple attackers, normally this continues until they are overwhelmed.  Really works wonders as when the pressure builds up all technique goes out of the window and the person in the middle just reacts with what comes naturally to them.

On another note, I find it fascinating how people react in these situations, the OP was literally high on adrenaline, pumped with muscles itching to go whilst finding it difficult to think and eventually explaining he had tunnel vision.  I have unfortunately been in similar situations or 'real' fight situations and I have shared the elevated heart rate and deep breathing, but I found that my brain calmed and I was able to think clearly and this enabled me to logically deal with the situation and I was intensely focused with my awareness peaked.  Interesting differences, in my opinion


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## jks9199 (Mar 11, 2013)

mook jong man said:


> [/B][/I]
> 
> That exercise is used by one of my old instructors who at one stage was head of Australian Krav Maga under Eyal Yanilov.
> The exercise is a desensitisation experience , only one of many drills , most of them are done from the fence position , but for a brief time this is done in close.
> ...



Yep, they happen to be American (US or Canadian); not surprisingly, I'm most familiar with them.  I'm quite sure there are others in the world doing good work, though perhaps not getting the attention or publicity.  You might note that I did say "starting point."

But I'll stand by my comments about your desensitization drill.  You're practicing standing at zero-range, and letting someone be abusive.  Why?  Does it teach something useful --or is there another way to practice a response that will be beneficial and desensitize you?  It might work as PART of a much larger program -- but especially as a stand-alone offering?  Nope, not something I want to ingrain in my students.  It's just like a lot of so-called scenario training.  I've seen stuff set up to prove the instructors can stack the deck and beat the students...  and, at the opposite end, scenarios designed solely to allow the student to succeed, no matter what they do.  A scenario should be designed to allow the student to succeed, IF they do the right things.  This isn't necessarily a cookie cutter response -- but there should be milestones and keys to define success.  It's complicated and hard; much more than just "lets do something... you're walking down a dark alley, and a guy jumps you..."


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## Kframe (Mar 11, 2013)

Mook jong man, I don't think your drill would be useful for me. It goes against my coach teaches us for self defense. Do not let people get that close to you, especially belligerent and aggressive ones.  I think that drill might instill bad practices. Such as your students allowing people to get so close to them, that there defenses are compromised. Sure its probably a good way to desensitize to verbal abuse, I don't think that is worth the bad Martial habit that gets drilled. 

JKS ill check out the authors you mentioned, thanks for the suggestion.  

Ill tell you, I don't really want to experience that again. Not pleasant in the least. Especially not being able to sleep for 2 hours afterword.. 

I am honestly questioning my training tho. Do I really need ground grappling, or should I focus more on my striking defense and standing grappling and control....


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## mook jong man (Mar 11, 2013)

Kframe said:


> _*Mook jong man, I don't think your drill would be useful for me. It goes against my coach teaches us for self defense. Do not let people get that close to you, especially belligerent and aggressive ones.  I think that drill might instill bad practices. Such as your students allowing people to get so close to them, that there defenses are compromised. Sure its probably a good way to desensitize to verbal abuse, I don't think that is worth the bad Martial habit that gets drilled. *_
> 
> JKS ill check out the authors you mentioned, thanks for the suggestion.
> 
> ...



You lot are missing the point.
It is only a very tiny part of the overall training and is not even done that often .
Just because you do it a few times doesn't mean your suddenly going to go around letting people get in range to headbutt you.

99 percent of the training is conducted from the fence position , with your arms extended out in front of you to keep the potential attacker at bay.
From that fence position we will also train our Wing Chun defences against common attacks.

You might want to do some research on Geoff Thompson , he developed the fence.
Now I know he's not American , but hey you can't have everything.


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## OzPaul (Mar 11, 2013)

I think scenario training can be helpful when training in your martial art of choice.  When i studied Kenpo the training was heavily scenario based and we did a lot of pressure testing drills.  The main things i noticed when doing the pressure testing scenarios was that i had tunnel vision, received 'auditory exclusion' (another topic in its own right) and my fitness which is pretty good turned terrible in about 5 seconds.

Since becoming a Police officer i still do experience the above mentioned things under pressure but i have learned to deal with them when put in a bad situation.  Small things like when my knee shakes i will say to myself "righto, switch on".

In all honesty however i think you could train scenarios, do RBSD or anything else which is around these days and it still won't help you too much.  The only thing you will take from it (which could save your life) is knowing how your body will react under pressure.  I don't think going through different techniques etc in your head will do much good.  It may work against you to be honest.

Experience is the key in these situations and unfortunately it isn't something you will learn in your dojo or kwoon.

This video by Geoff Thompson may help you reevaluate more than your training.


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## jks9199 (Mar 11, 2013)

Mauthos said:


> I believe in scenario training, as I do think it can provide an insight into how you would probably react in a real situation.  The usual 'bullring' idea works for my students, basically surround you in a circle with everyone jeering and shouting from the outside.  1 attacks and only stops attacking once you have got them to the ground, then another attacks.  Obviously this in then stepped up that the time between the attackers gets shorter and shorter, so at some point the guy in the middle will have to deal with multiple attackers, normally this continues until they are overwhelmed.  Really works wonders as when the pressure builds up all technique goes out of the window and the person in the middle just reacts with what comes naturally to them.
> 
> On another note, I find it fascinating how people react in these situations, the OP was literally high on adrenaline, pumped with muscles itching to go whilst finding it difficult to think and eventually explaining he had tunnel vision.  I have unfortunately been in similar situations or 'real' fight situations and I have shared the elevated heart rate and deep breathing, but I found that my brain calmed and I was able to think clearly and this enabled me to logically deal with the situation and I was intensely focused with my awareness peaked.  Interesting differences, in my opinion



Adrenalization is a survival process.  At moderate levels, it enhances you for fight/flight.  Blood pulls in from the extremities, reducing blood loss, heart rate increases to speed oxygen and other stuff through the body, and so on.  Heart rate is kind of the flag; as your heart rate increases and you pass out of that optimum adrenalization level, tunnel vision, auditory exclusion and what might best be described as stupidity (massive interference with logical thought) sets in.  

Freezing is more complex.  Some freezes are locks in "what do I do?" (OODA Loop or decision paralysis) or "Oh my gawd!  This is happening?!" (sometimes denial, sometimes just plain shock) reactions while others are a hold over from an instinctive "if I don't move, the sabre tooth tiger may not see me and won't eat me."


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## geezer (Mar 12, 2013)

K-Frame --just to let you know, I wasn't trying to rag on you before. You probably handled the situation better than I would have ...especially when I was younger. I used to have some anger management issues. I still have a short fuse when woken up like that in the middle of the night. But, I've come to realize that whenever possible it's best to de-escalate and defuse situations like that without fighting. And that's really hard when the adrenaline dump hits.


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## Ediaan (Mar 14, 2013)

In our martial arts school, I have found that if we put full head gear (with a face cage), chest proctectors, gum guards and groin boxes on and simulate fighting scenarios - a sort of anything goes - you get closer to the real thing than usual.

You will never be prepared for any situation where adrenaline will pump and where you need to either fight or run away - or freeze.

The most important thing is to constantly engage with people about fear psychology and to understand what happens when you are in that situation. For the martial artist, adrenaline in a self defence sitaution can either be your best friend or your worst enemy.


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## chinto (Mar 14, 2013)

the more you train the more you will tend to react from that training even with an Adrenalin dump.  The Big thing is to train hard and often, sparring will help, as will good scenario type things to some extent.  the full armor all out will help to.   The thing to remember is you FUNCTIONED with the adrenalin dump.  you will over time tend to handle that adrenalin dump better and better.  So train hard and also remember that in this case as in many NOT FIGHTING was more productive and the right thing.

The more you train the more you will find that some responses when needed will just kind of happen.  in the Okinawan and Japanese arts its called "no mind" its where that block or strike or grab or what have you just happens with out conscious thought.  Some people call it fighting on instinct, but really its the result of long hours of training hard.


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## Ediaan (Mar 15, 2013)

chinto said:


> the more you train the more you will tend to react from that training even with an Adrenalin dump.  The Big thing is to train hard and often, sparring will help, as will good scenario type things to some extent.  the full armor all out will help to.   The thing to remember is you FUNCTIONED with the adrenalin dump.  you will over time tend to handle that adrenalin dump better and better.  So train hard and also remember that in this case as in many NOT FIGHTING was more productive and the right thing.
> 
> The more you train the more you will find that some responses when needed will just kind of happen.  in the Okinawan and Japanese arts its called "no mind" its where that block or strike or grab or what have you just happens with out conscious thought.  Some people call it fighting on instinct, but really its the result of long hours of training hard.


Exactly, we call it musle memory in the WT art and it is really just constant practice until it becomes habit and then second nature.


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## szorn (Apr 14, 2013)

Just some thoughts here...

The reality is that everyone is different in regards to the adrenal response. What invokes a strong adrenal response in one person may barely effect another person. A lot of the response is based on perceptions and belief systems. That being said, it's not something we can eliminate. We can train to minimize the effects and learn to harness it for our advantage but we can't eliminate it. Considering that it's a major survival mechanism I am not sure I would want to eliminate it even if I could.

The adrenal response invoked during martial arts training or even super-hard sparring is not of the same intensity as dealing with a potentially violent situation. Dealing with an intense verbal engagement is not of the same intensity as dealing with an attacker intent on harming or killing you. That being the case, we can't truly replicate situations that invoke such an intense adrenal response, not safely anyway. However, through properly constructed scenarios and drills we can invoke an intense adrenal response that not only allows us to experience this in training but helps us to understand the ideal tactics and strategies that we will be able to successfully use under stress. In order to do this effectively you need to work with someone that has experience setting up these scenarios and drills. Sure you can try some of them with training partners and friends but they work best when you don't know the "attacker" well and when this person has experience invoking an adrenal response in others.

There are a variety of programs out there that specialize in training with and through the adrenal response. The major ones have been doing it for over 40 years. They have worked with enough people, both trained and untrained, to learn what statistically works and what doesn't. I would suggest seeking out one of these courses, which generally run from just a few hours up to a couple of days in length. These are not about converting people to their way of doing things as much as it is a way to learn how to employ what you already have for real self-defense. Check out FAST Defense, Model Mugging, Impact Self-Defense, RAW Power, or any of the similar programs. Yes, they use those funny looking large-headed suits but those are more for protecting the instructors than providing accurate targeting.

Hope that helps,
Steve


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## GaryR (Apr 24, 2013)

Definitely text book adrenaline dump.  I addressed ways to deal with it here - http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/109289-The-Way-Of-the-Combat-Mind. 

Here is a good blog: http://chirontraining.blogspot.com/ 

You need adrenal stress training.  Good on you for having some control.  But, with some scenario training you will have more wits about you for the lot of it.  Sparring just won't really get you there.  

Breaking up a fight takes some finesse, a proper use of distance and DE-escalation skill.  It seems as though your adrenal dump prevented those things, but it's good you didn't thump the guy trying to leave or for putting his hand on your shoulder!  Others had some great author recommendations. But I would only go with American Authors (kidding).  Gather some material and craft some scenarios. Be sure to have good gear.  

Best,

G


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## enthusiast (May 12, 2013)

Just got in a bar fight last night, the other table started throwing bottles when we retaliated and most of my buddies ran from the scene except for 4 of us including the one who started the fight.i don't want to go to detail but here is my point.

We are all fratmen in our table(from different fraternities,no stereotype please), we had our own shares of fights and I have seen most of them fight with other guys from different frats or other people(ok, you can stereotype now, jk), but the situation was very different last night. There were only 5 people who fought with us and I thought that we had it because of our number but they all started running. They didn't even catch the guys when they were fleeing, they just watched and froze. Not that I am saying that we should have done some serious damage to the guys or I want revenge(I wasn't even hurt badly, just a minor cut) but I was amazed that they froze considering that they have experiences in fighting. I am now thinking that you don't always have that "fight response" even if you have a lot of experience.

just wanted to share this because I am really pissed because one of us got bloody


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## Cyriacus (May 12, 2013)

enthusiast said:


> Just got in a bar fight last night, the other table started throwing bottles when we retaliated and most of my buddies ran from the scene except for 4 of us including the one who started the fight.i don't want to go to detail but here is my point.
> 
> We are all fratmen in our table(from different fraternities,no stereotype please), we had our own shares of fights and I have seen most of them fight with other guys from different frats or other people(ok, you can stereotype now, jk), but the situation was very different last night. There were only 5 people who fought with us and I thought that we had it because of our number but they all started running. They didn't even catch the guys when they were fleeing, they just watched and froze. Not that I am saying that we should have done some serious damage to the guys or I want revenge(I wasn't even hurt badly, just a minor cut) but I was amazed that they froze considering that they have experiences in fighting. I am now thinking that you don't always have that "fight response" even if you have a lot of experience.
> 
> just wanted to share this because I am really pissed because one of us got bloody



Sweeping statement: Alot of folks have to work themselves up to get their fight response. Then they have an excuse (the build up).


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## DennisBreene (May 12, 2013)

Chris Parker said:


> From an older post of mine, in a similar thread:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Mr. Parker's description of the adrenal response is generally accurate. In reality, the freeze response is the first response in almost all unfamiliar stress situations. It is followed by fight or flight. Almost all training in military combat, aviation, first responders, etc. has a significant component of drilling to move the individual past the freeze response as quickly as possible. Clearly, freezing in the face of armed combat, while common, has a negative impact on survival.  The quality/intensity of the training combined with the individual's make up are major factors in how one deals with the adrenaline dump. As for certain fight scenarios; bars, frat boy's and the like, I fail to understand the attraction in indulging in what on the surface seems like gratuitous violence.


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## enthusiast (May 12, 2013)

what is "the build up"?thanks


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## martial sparrer (May 12, 2013)

ALL HAIL THE RESPONSE FROM A LITTLE MORE EXPERIENCED MARTIAL ARTIST:THIS STORY OF YOURS is an example of what it means to discover the true essence of what being a martial artist is all about!  you should feel exhilarated my friend......!!!!!!    if you had channelled your energy into combat you would have destroyed your opponent.....channel that energy into crispness of mind.....the other day I was lying in a ravine and 4 teenagers that looked like thugs came across my path....I gambled with my life....I should have got up.....but I contuned to lie their because I knew I would conjure up diffusible power within me.....I continued toi lie their and I took the chance that they would attack me....in the end they did not....and I was thankful for that....


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## Cyriacus (May 12, 2013)

enthusiast said:


> what is "the build up"?thanks



Anything from pushing, shoving, yelling, posturing, tensing up and getting angry whilst pretending to try and look calm (that thing people do where they go red and start shaking a bit, but are clearly just pretending to be calm, and they know it), arguing for the sake of arguing, waiting for the other person to do something back (i push you, then you push me. now i feel like i have 'permission' to push back)... Anything, really.


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## Chris Parker (May 14, 2013)

DennisBreene said:


> Mr. Parker's description of the adrenal response is generally accurate. In reality, the freeze response is the first response in almost all unfamiliar stress situations. It is followed by fight or flight. Almost all training in military combat, aviation, first responders, etc. has a significant component of drilling to move the individual past the freeze response as quickly as possible. Clearly, freezing in the face of armed combat, while common, has a negative impact on survival.  The quality/intensity of the training combined with the individual's make up are major factors in how one deals with the adrenaline dump. As for certain fight scenarios; bars, frat boy's and the like, I fail to understand the attraction in indulging in what on the surface seems like gratuitous violence.



Agreed that "freeze" is the first response, in that the first thing that needs to happen is that the person needs to assess what's going on... but I was meaning "freeze" as a response to be the continuous reaction to stress, rather than just the initial (immediate) one... and, in that sense, "freeze" is separate from "fight" the same way "flight" is. Absolutely agreed on the appeal of gratuitous violence, of course.



martial sparrer said:


> ALL HAIL THE RESPONSE FROM A LITTLE MORE EXPERIENCED MARTIAL ARTIST:THIS STORY OF YOURS is an example of what it means to discover the true essence of what being a martial artist is all about!  you should feel exhilarated my friend......!!!!!!    if you had channelled your energy into combat you would have destroyed your opponent.....channel that energy into crispness of mind.....the other day I was lying in a ravine and 4 teenagers that looked like thugs came across my path....I gambled with my life....I should have got up.....but I contuned to lie their because I knew I would conjure up diffusible power within me.....I continued toi lie their and I took the chance that they would attack me....in the end they did not....and I was thankful for that....



..... Huh?


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## DennisBreene (May 15, 2013)

Chris Parker said:


> Agreed that "freeze" is the first response, in that the first thing that needs to happen is that the person needs to assess what's going on... but I was meaning "freeze" as a response to be the continuous reaction to stress, rather than just the initial (immediate) one... and, in that sense, "freeze" is separate from "fight" the same way "flight" is. Absolutely agreed on the appeal of gratuitous violence, of course.
> 
> 
> 
> ..... Huh?



I generally agree with your assessment of the freeze response. I was refering to the reflexive response to freeze. It is not a concious choice and generally precedes the subsequent response to run or fight (again reflex driven). That assumes that one survives the freeze when one is vulnerable to attack. Hence the heavy emphasis on training to shorten the time one is stuck in "freeze".  This is differant than a concious choice to stop and assess a situation before proceding. I have experienced the freeze response ( a pickup truck crested a blind hill and was bearing down on me as I fumbled with an unfamiliar motorcycle. I literally froze and was incapable of responding to the imminant danger). It is not pleasant, to say the least.


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## thefightersheart (Jul 19, 2013)

Thanks for the post, I feel that your psychology is half the battle, which you have already explained clearly. I have been training with the below recently, which I hope offers you some value






Cheers


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## jks9199 (Jul 19, 2013)

Do you know anything about the person's background or biography?  I'm personally a little skeptical at big promises from someone who doesn't even give their name or their training and experience background.  How do you know whether they're really credible?


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