# isometric and tai chi



## Edmindo (Oct 10, 2010)

I did learn the postures of 108 yang cheng fu. So now I will try to undertand each posture
I am also learning zhang zhuang qigong the 5 main postures 10 minutes each
This will be all I need to be strong and fast?
Or should I do some Isometric exercices?
Or should do _Weight_ training?
thanks and sorry for my english


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## fyn5000 (Oct 11, 2010)

Has your teacher started you on practicing push hands?

Fyn


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## Edmindo (Oct 11, 2010)

fyn5000 said:


> Has your teacher started you on practicing push hands?
> 
> Fyn


I just move and I am looking for a good teacher to lead me,
 good point push hands thanks


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 11, 2010)

What does getting strong fast have to do with it?

And if you are truly learing taijiquan and truly want to learn taijiquan fast has nothing to do with it at all. It takes time.


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## mograph (Oct 12, 2010)

In my opinion:

Fast = relaxed. This comes from slow practice, with much attention paid to relaxation, softness and _song_.

Strong = connected ... with force distributed and connected throughout your body, so you can use the earth as a root or foundation with no breaks or interruptions inside your body. This comes from testing against some kind of resistance (starting gently), preferably a push hands partner (not opponent).

Until you learn to be connected, weight training will not help your taijiquan. 

Oh, yes: you must learn to be sensitive to the feelings, pressures and alignments within your body. Nobody canhelp you with that. With slow practice, paying attention, this will come.


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## Edmindo (Oct 12, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> What does getting strong fast have to do with it?
> 
> And if you are truly learing taijiquan and truly want to learn taijiquan fast has nothing to do with it at all. It takes time.


sorry I meant to say fast and strong


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## Edmindo (Oct 12, 2010)

mograph said:


> In my opinion:
> 
> Fast = relaxed. This comes from slow practice, with much attention paid to relaxation, softness and _song_.
> 
> ...


thanks you sound like a true master a few words you explain a lot


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## mograph (Oct 12, 2010)

You're quite gracious. I learn much from this forum. :asian:


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## yardmeat (Oct 15, 2010)

Strength training can benefit _anything_ that involves moving your muscles, no matter how slow or gentle those movements are.  I have only had two weeks of face-to-face instruction in Yang style Tai Chi.  My teacher moved out of state after that, and the only thing I feel comfortable saying that I learned was the opening movement.  So I practice that movement every day, over and over again.  I also do strength training every day, and yes, my strength training has helped me improve this movement.

If properly done, strength training does more than just let you lift heavier and heavier weights.  It increases you flexibility, the quality of your joint movements, and even helps train your nervous system.  That is why your best results in strength training are always in the first few weaks and then you start to plateau: it is really your brain that is changing the most at first, not your muscles.

Whether you want to do strength training to improve your Tai Chi or to become stronger and faster or both, two rules are very important:

1) Use your full range of motion.  Go all of the way through the movement every time.  If you are doing push ups, go all of the way down and all of the way up.  When you can't do that anymore, stop.  Don't try doing more reps with a poor technique just so you can say you did more pushups.  If you are practicing a movement until muscle failure, then muscle failure is not when you can simply no longer move that muscle group, muscle failure is when you can no long move that muscle group at its _full range_.

2) Do compound exercises, not isolation exercises.  That means less curls and more squats.  Do exercises that use as much of your body as possible.  Exercises that isolate a small group of muscles are great for strengthening that group, but they won't help much with your coordination.  Compound exercises are better for flexibility and coordination.

I can't stress this enough: proper strength training does more than improve your strength and speed.  It also improves your flexibility and coordination.  Any activity involving muscle movement, no matter how slow or soft, can benefit from strength training.

I know you said that English is not your first language.  Let me know if I can clarify anything I said.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 15, 2010)

Strength training can be a good thing but as far as it applies to Taiji, if learning Taiji is the goal, it can be detrimental in the early stages. 

Once you understand the forms and the connectivity of the muscles in the body then it is a good thing. Before that it is training you to depend on strength and working muscles individually and that is not how Taiji is used nor is it how Taiji should be trained.

If one insists on doing strength training of any type in the early stages of Taiji I highly recommend one stays with body weight exercises that work multiple muscle groups at the same time.


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## yardmeat (Oct 15, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> Strength training can be a good thing but as far as it applies to Taiji, if learning Taiji is the goal, it can be detrimental in the early stages.
> 
> Once you understand the forms and the connectivity of the muscles in the body then it is a good thing. Before that it is training you to depend on strength and working muscles individually and that is not how Taiji is used nor is it how Taiji should be trained.


This is especially true if you are beginning both at the same time.  I fully believe that strength training would be a benefit, but it would probably be better to either begin Tai Chi _after_ a six week strength training program or to do a strength training program _after_ you have gotten comfortable with your forms.  Proper strength training should help with connectivity, but strength training is as much about the nervous system as it is about the muscular system, and you could end up confusing your body if you try to start too many different types of exercises at once.




> If one insists on doing strength training of any type in the early stages of Taiji I highly recommend one stays with body weight exercises that work multiple muscle groups at the same time.


Isolation exercises have their place.  They are great for things like recovery therapy.  But for most applications, especially for _any_ MA application, compound exercises are superior.


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## oaktree (Oct 15, 2010)

I think the concern is when you are performing as a beginner and engaging in external weightlifting Tuishou or trying to practice the form it makes it harder to _*listen.*_ As Sun Lu Tang states:



> *An emphasis on the use of the mind to coordinate the leverage of the relaxed body as opposed to the use of strength*.
> The internal development, circulation, and expression of qì, the "vital energy" of classical Chinese philosophy.
> The application of Taoist d&#462;oy&#464;n, qìg&#333;ng, and nèig&#333;ng (&#20839;&#21151 principles of external movement.


Song &#39686; and Chen &#27785; imply relaxing loose and sinking down.
Here is an excellent beginners article:
http://www.itcca.it/peterlim/pp.htm

And Yang Chen Fu's 10 essentials
http://www.itcca.it/peterlim/ycf10pts.htm

When in doubt in your practice read what the master's have written.


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## mograph (Oct 15, 2010)

yardmeat said:


> Isolation exercises have their place.  They are great for things like recovery therapy.  But for most applications, especially for _any_ MA application, compound exercises are superior.


Amen, brothers. There has been too much emphasis put on isolation training in strength training literature. 

Could it be said that one should use isolation exercises to restore balance, compound exercises to maintain it?

(By "balance", I don't mean "not falling over", I mean "whole-body functioning" balance. But you guys knew that.)


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## yardmeat (Oct 15, 2010)

Well not just maintain, but maintain and improve.  But you are spot on.  I did isolation exercises for my wrists and biceps because they were out of balance, but you can bet I ditched the isolation exercises as soon as I got them caught up!


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## Edmindo (Oct 15, 2010)

I know you said that English is not your first language.  Let me know if I can clarify anything I said.


yardmeat
yes I did get your words, it will help me to focus an every move I will do from now on. 
 ( Don't try doing more reps with a poor technique) I will apply it to every thing that I will do  thanks


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## Edmindo (Oct 15, 2010)

yardmeat said:


> This is especially true if you are beginning both at the same time.  I fully believe that strength training would be a benefit, but it would probably be better to either begin Tai Chi _after_ a six week strength training program or to do a strength training program _after_ you have gotten comfortable with your forms.  Proper strength training should help with connectivity, but strength training is as much about the nervous system as it is about the muscular system, and you could end up confusing your body if you try to start too many different types of exercises at once.[/font][/color]
> 
> Isolation exercises have their place.  They are great for things like recovery therapy.  But for most applications, especially for _any_ MA application, compound exercises are superior.



thanks I will do it the way you said  six weeks to get comfortable


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## Edmindo (Dec 12, 2010)

Edmindo said:


> I did learn the postures of 108 yang cheng fu. So now I will try to undertand each posture
> I am also learning zhang zhuang qigong the 5 main postures 10 minutes each
> This will be all I need to be strong and fast?
> Or should I do some Isometric exercices?
> ...



I was doing zhang zhuang by my self and one old man came close to me and told me, 
if  you keep doing this you will wake up muscle fivers that you do not even know you have I did not undertood and I said what, and he said is like the animals they never do weight liftingt and train, but the way their bodies are they are in zhang zhuang position 
all the time that is why they are really strong.

so I will keep doing it an I do really feel stronger and faster than 8 weeks ago


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## andreynort (Jan 1, 2013)

Isometric stretching increases strenth and flexibility http://goo.gl/BXND2


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