# Which FMA Teacher Has Made The Greatest Impact on the FMA's?



## Brian R. VanCise

*Which FMA teacher has made the greatest impact on the FMA's?*

Okay there is really no right or wrong answer but state what you feel and why.  Personally I am just curious!


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## tellner

There's only one possible answer. Dan Inosanto. He lifted the FMA out of obscurity and gave them a respectable public face. He promoted and brought forward pretty much all of the important Southeast Asian martial arts teachers. He was also the first to bring them to a wider non-Filipino audience. Even the teachers who had nothing to do with him have benefited from the publicity he generated for their arts. Frankly, a lot of so-called Masters and Grandmasters and Datus and Tuhons and all the rest should be down on their knees giving thanks to him instead of spreading slander and ingratitude. He's the one who provided their meal ticket.

He also systematized a lot that was done in more informal ways. Many prominent teachers living and dead took his stuff, filed off the serial numbers and claimed it as their own. He didn't badmouth them but just went on doing his thing, resolving quarrels rather than starting them. Anyone who could get Al Concepcion and Mike Inay (ztl) to sit down over dinner and bury the hatchet with just a phone call deserves some kind of award for saintly patience in the cause of Peace.


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## kuntawguro

I believe that 2 individuals opened the doors for the rest

# 1
Prof Remy Presas opened a lot of eyes to the FMA early in the 70's
by gaining access to a lot of Korean schools

#2 Guro Dan Inosanto was able to  expose a lot of people to the concepts, history, and viability of the FMA in the later 70's by giving  quality seminars and workshops everywhere.

the rest just benefited by their actions and their  abilities


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## Cruentus

I would have to say the Saavedra family (namely Lorenzo, Teodoro, and Frederico) of the Origional Doce pares club, Anciong Bacon (Student of Lorenzo Saavedra, Founder of Balintawak Eskrima) and the Canete family (namely Cacoy, founder of current Doce Pares school).

Their fierce fighting ability and reputations helped make FMA what it is known for today.

Remy Presas could be mentioned not only for his skill, but for bringing FMA to the world. There are so many other's, though, as well. These people stick out the most in mind mind, however...

C.


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## tellner

I'll have to respectfully disagree for the reasons above. If it hadn't been for Mr. Inosanto they would all still be languishing in obscurity. It's hard to overstate the influence he had on the stature and exposure of the FMA. I'm not saying that he's the best eskrimador who ever banged a knuckle. But he's the most influential single practitioner of the last fifty years.


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## Rich Parsons

tellner said:


> I'll have to respectfully disagree for the reasons above. If it hadn't been for Mr. Inosanto they would all still be languishing in obscurity. It's hard to overstate the influence he had on the stature and exposure of the FMA. I'm not saying that he's the best eskrimador who ever banged a knuckle. But he's the most influential single practitioner of the last fifty years.




I am confused by this. 

GM Remy Presas was in the States and was already well known in the PI or RP as it is also called.  I think Remy did his think and wanted to teach and travel. Remy went to lots of countries and taught lots of people. Is that not also taking the FMA's from Obscurity? Unless of course you are saying that Remy and Modern Arnis does not have a respectable public face. I am not sure which is part of my confusion. You mention it in the first and not the4 second so it may not be your main point. 

This by no means an insult to Dan.


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## Cruentus

tellner said:


> I'll have to respectfully disagree for the reasons above. If it hadn't been for Mr. Inosanto they would all still be languishing in obscurity. It's hard to overstate the influence he had on the stature and exposure of the FMA. I'm not saying that he's the best eskrimador who ever banged a knuckle. But he's the most influential single practitioner of the last fifty years.


 
That is not true because Remy Presas brought FMA to the states without Inosanto's assistance. If anything, we could thank Ed Parker for giving him a chance to present his style to the public (as well as Bruce Lee's). 

That said, that is only referencing the "states." Presas brought the arts back into the maintstream pilipino culture (where it was not widely known), while also ambassadoring the arts to other parts of asia and Europe. This is pretty significant too. 

Not saying that Inosanto is not influential, but credit needs to be given where it is due to both individuals.


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## Carol

I'm going to vote for the late, great, Conrado Tortal, who formalized and organized his family system, Pekiti-Tirsia, so it could be taught to non-family members.


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## Perpetual White Belt

Cruentus said:


> That is not true because Remy Presas brought FMA to the states without Inosanto's assistance. If anything, we could thank Ed Parker for giving him a chance to present his style to the public (as well as Bruce Lee's).
> 
> That said, that is only referencing the "states." Presas brought the arts back into the maintstream pilipino culture (where it was not widely known), while also ambassadoring the arts to other parts of asia and Europe. This is pretty significant too.
> 
> Not saying that Inosanto is not influential, but credit needs to be given where it is due to both individuals.


 
Then you'd also have to credit GM Max Pallen for sponsoring Prof Remy's initial trip here and housing him as well.


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## Rich Parsons

Perpetual White Belt said:


> Then you'd also have to credit GM Max Pallen for sponsoring Prof Remy's initial trip here and housing him as well.



While I thought GM Pallen did help him in his second trip is first trip was paid for by the California Police in early 1974 time frame. No disrespect to Max or others who have done things to help promote and teach the arts of the Phillipines.


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## Datu Tim Hartman

I have to find the article, but if I'm not mistaken Remy had some influence of Guro Dan getting into FMA.


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## tellner

There has been a lot of good fighters and players. They all seem to have converged around Guro Inosanto. He might not be the best eskrimador in the world, but there's no doubt whatsoever he was the most influential single person in bringing them into the public eye.


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## Datu Tim Hartman

My vote is still for GM Remy. No one taught as many seminars as he did. There is no doubt that Guro Dan had an impact, but his big thing is JKD. Everyone has their opinion and there is nothing wrong with that.  In this case we all may have to agree to disagree.


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## stickarts

The number of seminars that GM Presas conducted was just staggering. I was also amazed that when I traveled for work, I would visit martial arts schools in the area, and so many of them had GM Presas photo there in the school and had learned something from him. 
My opinion is biased because I knew Prof. Presas better than I ever knew any of the others, however, he has my vote.


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## arnisador

All the answers are good! Prof. Presas and Mr. Inosanto are great choices.


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## Brian R. VanCise

Remy Presas, Dan Inosanto, Tortal, etc.  There are actually many great pioneers of the FMA's.  Remy Presas spread Arnis World Wide through so many seminars it would make your head spin.  He also got Arnis into the RP school system as a PE class as well as spreading stick work into so many Tae Kwon Do and Karate schools that it was almost unbelieveable.  Dan Inosanto also popularized the name Kali and taught a boat load of semianars and brought all kinds of Filipino Instructors to the States.  Conrado Tortal formalized his family system and set it up to be propogated around the world by Leo T. Gaje and Nene Tortal! (even if they are a very divided house and now teach under seperate style names)

If I had to vote just for one then it would be Remy Presas!  However it would be incredibly hard to argue against someone voting for Dan Inosanto as well. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Personally the one who influenced me the earliest was Dan Inosanto even though I had met Remy Presas several months before I had met Dan.  In the end Remy certainly had more influence in my movement but still sooooooooooooooooo many others have also contributed.


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## Perpetual White Belt

Rich Parsons said:


> While I thought GM Pallen did help him in his second trip is first trip was paid for by the California Police in early 1974 time frame. No disrespect to Max or others who have done things to help promote and teach the arts of the Phillipines.


 
I believe GM Pallen had something to do with that trip as well.  I know that Prof Presas stayed at his house and I'm almost certian GM Pallen said it was during Prof Presas' 1st trip here.  When I can get into my storage shed (There's a big snow pile plowed in front of the door which has now turned into an ice pile....) I'll look for the booklet Prof. Pallen wrote about it for the dates.


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## kailat

In my own personal experience way back in 1985 when I was first exposed to FMA it was Dan Inosanto.  I had been in the Martial Arts for about 2yrs at that time studying an American Karate system, I couldn't of been no older than 14 at that time and along came Guro Dan out of NOWHERE!!  Our school quickly became all about him for many years after.  Of course this was waaaaayyyy before the INTERNET was around so the world was not so closely tied together and all that we had was Guro DAN, once a year.   It wasn't until many years later had I heard of other FMA masters like GT Gaje, and then GM Presas.  Later on in our circle of stickers I met the Cabalas' Serrada Eskrima guys.  So to say the least I was really confused  hahaha.  Of course the older I became and more mature knowledgable I became about the various other arts and instructors did I come to understand that FMA was a vast array of disciplines each the same and each different.  HOLY WOW!!! Yea because for the first several years of my FMA training I had no clue there was another FMA style or whatnot outside of the INOSANTO group.. BOY was I uneducated..

  So with all due respect I'd have to say Guro Dan Inosanto would be my choice for getting FMA recognized at least here in and or around the Midwest much so the INDIANA area.


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## Perpetual White Belt

Rich Parsons said:


> While I thought GM Pallen did help him in his second trip is first trip was paid for by the California Police in early 1974 time frame. No disrespect to Max or others who have done things to help promote and teach the arts of the Phillipines.


 
I just got back from the Senkotiros Sama-Sama weekend.  Dr. Remy Presas taught a session on Sunday and while he was opening his session he said that Grandmaster Pallen brought his father over to the States in 1974.  At the end of the session Grandmaster Pallen presented Dr. Presas with the Modern Arnis banner from that time and the swords used during those demonstrations.


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## arnisador

Hey, cool! Sounds like a good event.


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## Perpetual White Belt

It was a great event!  I reviewed it over on FMATalk as my alter-ego Brock.


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## Rabu

Angel Cabales.  Just a thought.


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## Mark Lynn

World Wide

I'd have to go with GM Remy first, Guro Inosanto a close 2nd.

1) GM Remy had already been practicing and teaching arnis years before Guro Dan started, he had already formulated and systemitized Modern arnis and got it into the public schools in the PI prior to Guro Inosanto even starting to teach his backyard group.

2) When Remy came here in the mid 70's he started the seminar circut and I believe the week long training camps.  A couple of years later in the early 80's I believe Guro Inosanto started the week long training camps to help create instructors in kali and such.

3) GM Remy lived the life of a vagabond traveling from here and there for many years conducting camps and week end seminars plus little 4-6 hour seminars as well.  All over the united states exposing people to his art of Modern Arnis.  Guro Inosanto conducted seminars on kali and then also split time with JKD, Silat, Thai Boxing etc. etc. exposing students to a variety of martial arts not just kali.

GM Remy ultimately I would argue for pure arnis (or his system of Modern Arnis containing aspects of jujitsu and karate), taught and influenced more people.  That being said, Guro Inosanto has probably influenced more people in the martial arts (as a whole) than GM Remy.  

Guro Dan has put out more books, articles, instructors, dvds, tapes etc. etc. than GM Remy, but they have covered a wide area of material beyond the FMA.

This is not to say that all of the other FMA GMs etc. etc. haven't spread or contributed to the propagation of the FMAs around the world.  They have.  But GM Remy was doing it very early on and he really worked the seminar circut when there really wasn't one.

For myself I saw Guro Inosanto in 1982 and he has really impacted me in not just FMA but in the other systems he taught as well in my younger years.  I started learning Modern Arnis in 1995 and have pretty much stayed with it and Kombatan Arnis.

Mark


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## Doc_Jude

You know, in some ways I see folks like Remy Presas or Dan Inosanto as being the primary forces in bringing FMA to the West. However, there's an angle where one could see individuals like Mark Denny (Dog Bros) as having the greatest impact *LATELY.* I think that it's a little too subjective, not as far as styles go but more what you find valuable in FMAs. Maybe it's generational, hell, I don't know.


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## searcher

Doc_Jude said:


> You know, in some ways I see folks like Remy Presas or Dan Inosanto as being the primary forces in bringing FMA to the West. However, there's an angle where one could see individuals like Mark Denny (Dog Bros) as having the greatest impact *LATELY.* I think that it's a little too subjective, not as far as styles go but more what you find valuable in FMAs. Maybe it's generational, hell, I don't know.


 

But if you put in Guro Marc, then you have to add in Eric Knaus and Arlan Sanford.   The three together have done a bunch, but even they would have had some trouble if it were nto for Mr. Inosanto.


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## Rich Parsons

searcher said:


> But if you put in Guro Marc, then you have to add in Eric Knaus and Arlan Sanford. The three together have done a bunch, but even they would have had some trouble if it were nto for Mr. Inosanto.


 

SHHHHH! Eric is not called "TOP DOG" for no specific reason within the Dog Brothers.


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## Doc_Jude

searcher said:


> But if you put in Guro Marc, then you have to add in Eric Knaus and Arlan Sanford.   The three together have done a bunch, but even they would have had some trouble if it were nto for Mr. Inosanto.



What "trouble" would they have had? I'm not following. Are we supposed to be simply seeking the avenues or individuals through which FMAs spread around the world, or are we talking about FMA teachers making an impact? 
That's all I'm saying. If simply spreading good FMAs is the issue, that's one thing. Some folks may look at all of the FMAs out there and see that the Dog Brothers now have the best thing going.


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## geezer

Doc_Jude said:


> You know, in some ways I see folks like Remy Presas or Dan Inosanto as being the primary forces in bringing FMA to the West. However, there's an angle where one could see individuals like Mark Denny (Dog Bros) as having the greatest impact *LATELY.* I think that it's a little too subjective, not as far as styles go but more what you find valuable in FMAs._ Maybe it's generational, hell, I don't know._



From my personal experience, I'd have to agree. The Filipino martial skills have always been there--lying hidden away...Until Dan Inosanto and Bruce Lee exposed them to the world, first through films(_The game of Death_), then through instruction, seminars, books, and later, videos. I had Filipino friends who told me that before Inosanto and Lee catapulted the FMA's into the spotlight, that these arts had no rep even in the Philippines. Everybody was studying Judo and Karate, or even boxing! Only the foreign arts had status.

Then a generation later, Karate, Kung-fu and the TMA's in general were reduced to a joke, the subject of countless parody movies (can you make crazy Kung-fu screams?) and Saturday morning cartoons. Today's youth want more "reality" in the form of MMA, full-contact cage fighting and streetwise application. The Dog Bros. have provided that for the FMA's. The great masters have always been there, but without somebody to reach out to each generation, the FMA's could gradually drift back into obscurity.


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## avm247

Angel Cabales opened the first commercial school in the US in 1966.

Leo Giron was Dan Inosanto's first FMA instructor, if I recall correctly....

Ramiro A Estalilla, Sr taught Kabaroan in Minneapolis, MN in 1923-1929 (???)

Dan Inosanto's Filipino Martial Arts was groundbreaking when it was first introduced...

GM Ramiro Estalilla Jr helped to end the feud between GM Cabales and GM Giron.

Professor Presas spread Modern Arnis through out the world and instituted it as part of the educational curriculum in PI under former Pres. Marcos.

(I could be wrong on the above, but that is what I recall reading from various sources, if so, I humbly apologize.)


Can you pick just one?


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## James Kovacich

Rabu said:


> Angel Cabales. Just a thought.


Theres a lot of talk about the '70's and '80's but what about 1966? 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8gFjY7G34E&feature=PlayList&p=2A55E9DE420A1264&index=50http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8gFjY7G34E&feature=PlayList&p=2A55E9DE420A1264&index=50


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## Dan Anderson

The Boar Man said:


> World Wide
> 
> I'd have to go with GM Remy first, Guro Inosanto a close 2nd.
> Mark


Same here.  Guro Dan was making some waves prior to GM Remy arriving to the US but it was GM Remy who really broke through the closed seminar idea and made FMA available to all with his slogan "The Art Within Your Art."  There were a number of teachers prior to GM Remy getting here but FMA was really a small deal up til then.

Here's a thought.  If you want to figure out who was the most influential person in FMA in the US it woulod have to be Renardo Barden.  He is the one who gave GM Remy so much play in Karate Illustrated and Black Belt magazines in the early 1980's

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Mananandata

I would go with Dan Inosanto and of course, we all know that he was a student of so many icons of FMA so there you go.


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## Stan

Very interesting discussion.  

I wonder, what's next for the FMA's in the West?  Of the masters mentioned, all have been wildly talented and influential.  But few if any have emphasized their art as a primary art to be taught in established schools.  This is not to say that the systems are not complete in a technical sense.  Just that, as discussed in this thread, often the key to exposing Filipino arts was to get people in other arts such as Kempo, Tae Kwon Do, or the more Chinese-influenced elements of JKD to take an active interest.

What does everyone think?  Will there be a time or a person who establishes a Filipino art as a primary, mainstream art, that a person off the street with no previous experience seeks out, for all the reasons noobs generally get into martial arts?


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## Darrin Cook

I think that some FMA are "popularizers," people who promote the martial art and introduce it to a larger audience. In this category I would put:

Guro Dan Inosanto, whose book on the FMA was my introduction to the arts.

GM Remy Presas, who amazes me with the number of students taught or injfluenced by him. His Modern Arnis book is in every National Bookstore in the Philippines.

Doce Pares (the Canete Brothers) who sponsor tournaments in the Philippines, where they are perhaps the most visible FMA's, at least in Cebu City



Then there are those who are "authorities." In this category I would put:

GM Angel Cabales, who was one of the first to open an FMA school in the US

GM Leo Giron, who was also one of the first to teach in the US.

Even though Giron and Cabales were rivals, practically every California FMA was either taught or influenced by one of these two. Whom did Guro Inosanto learn from? Who had the answers when Dan had questions? Manong Leo.

In the Philippines, at least in Cebu City, GM Anciong Bacon was the authority. GM Giron had actually fought in WW II, and Anciong had fought in full contact stick matches. In Cebu City schools you could divide people into "Balintawak" or "Not Balintawak." While Presas was a popularizer, he regarded Anciong's student and peer, Timor Maranga, as an authority.


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## Rich Parsons

Darrin Cook said:


> In the Philippines, at least in Cebu City, GM Anciong Bacon was the authority. GM Giron had actually fought in WW II, and Anciong had fought in full contact stick matches. In Cebu City schools you could divide people into "Balintawak" or "Not Balintawak." While Presas was a popularizer, he regarded Anciong's student and peer, Timor Maranga, as an authority.


 
In addition, GM Presas asked GM Bacon to teach when he left Cebu (* Another story *) and GM Bacon told him he could but as he did not teach only Balintawak, not to call it Balintawak. 

He also referred many people to Manong Ted Buot in SE Michigan as the person to go to for Balintawak training. He considered Manong Ted an Authority by his actions and words, even if he never used the word authority.


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## Mark Lynn

Stan said:


> Very interesting discussion.
> 
> What does everyone think?  Will there be a time or a person who establishes a Filipino art as a primary, mainstream art, that a person off the street with no previous experience seeks out, for all the reasons noobs generally get into martial arts?



Stan

I believe this has occurred in Germany with the DAV.  The DAV has established the FMA as a main art to be taught, instead of the add on status it has here in the USA.

Mark


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## HKphooey

While I think many of the FMA greats had great impact, I have  another view on this...  As a newcomer to the art, the instructors and teachers propagating the FMA, have (and will continue) to have the greatest impact.   With an art like American Kenpo, the following was was so great that after GM Parker's death it was easy to keep the art alive and flourishing.  Many of you continue to teach the FMA's and are not making a whole lot of money off it.  You do it for the love and you do it to keep the art alive.  Many of these instructors post on this forum (and I have yet to meet you) and have taught me a lot about the history and evolution of the FMA's.  I would hate to start listing names because I would leave some out by error.  The FMA's made me look even closer at my base art (kenpo) and take things to another level.  

Thank you to all instructors who have posted info on the FMA's, kept a school going when the money was tight, taught a few students in your garage, traveled  100's of miles to learn, hosted seminars (and lost money), wrote books, created videos, posted on youtube, passed on a great FMA story, and most of all - passed on the knowledge to others to help the FMS's grow (or shoulf I say "flow").  You are the unsung heroes of the art.

Sensei Frank, thanks for introducing me to such a great art and philosophy!


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## Brian Jones

I have to say Remy Presas, just becuase of all he did to introduce FMA to so many people world wide through his seminars. Also for his idea that you don't have to abandon what you know to do Modern Arnis. This made it much more appealing for people to explore the art.


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## Darrin Cook

HKPhooey,

Excuse me if this is off topic, but I started in Kenpo, too. Once I studied the Filipino martial arts, I was able to see Kenpo in a whole different light.

I think some of the FMA training would help a practitioner apply the kenpo moves spontaneously.


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## khand50

i think,  from reading through the pages,  that people have misunderstood the question.  having the greatest impact is different than bringing it forward to the public,  at large.  
i remember reading about grandmaster presas and all the seminars he did and the fact that he got into the korean schools,  quite a feat in itself.  but are we talking about the art itself or the popularizing of the art?   making it popular,  in our culture,  is dan inosanto, in that he brought it into mainstream film, and because of his popularity as a friend and student of bruce lee,  he was able to do this.  even bruce lee brought the idea of kali forward in enter the dragon,  with his use of the double batons.  even though he wasnt a filipino stylist.   
grandmaster presas was known primarily in the martial arts community and didnt really break into mass media.  but his impact on spreading the filipino arts is legendary.  
then there are those instructors who have taught the art,  refined the art, and spread the art.  the canete's,  with their doce pares,  have certainly had a great impact on the arts.  angel cabales.  floro villabrille, who dan inosanto cites as one of the greatest living escrimadors,  when he wrote the filipino martial arts book.   
there are many who have been influential and have had a great impact on the filipino martial arts.  rather than trying to find the best, maybe we should concentrate on naming the ones who have contributed and what they have contributed.


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## khand50

oh,  and what about ben largusa?   he was the first to demonstrate the art in ed parker's tournaments.  i just read that on largusa's web site.


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## ap Oweyn

khand50 said:


> even bruce lee brought the idea of kali forward in enter the dragon, with his use of the double batons. even though he wasnt a filipino stylist.


 
Actually, according to Guro Inosanto, Lee was utterly nonplussed about kali.  And hadn't looked into it himself when he picked up the two sticks and started doing his thing.  Inosanto remarked "hey, you're doing largo mano!"  Lee replied that he was simply doing his thing with the sticks.  Implying that any resemblance to kali was completely coincidental.

That said, _any_ double stick work on screen is going to be attributed to kali, for better or worse.  I remember when "The Perfect Weapon" came out in theaters.  Our local EPAK teachers came out and did demos.  I was chatting with them afterward when people started coming up and asking whether Speakman did kali (much to their annoyance).  What he does in that movie doesn't especially resemble kali.  But two sticks equals FMA to John Q Public.  (The segment of the public that's ever even heard of kali, that is.)


Stuart


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## khand50

i agree.  that is why i wrote,   that he brought the idea of kali.  i know that he didnt think much of the filipino arts because he felt that they were too predictable and rhythmic.  i was just making the point that yes,  what people see on the screen that even barely resembles filipino arts at least does excite them to maybe investigate it more.  perfect weapon was a good point.  i did a kali demo at the opening of perfect weapon in west palm beach fl with my instructor.   we did this demo with sean kelly of lake worth fl.  he is  an kenpo instructor there.


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## ap Oweyn

khand50 said:


> i agree. that is why i wrote, that he brought the idea of kali. i know that he didnt think much of the filipino arts because he felt that they were too predictable and rhythmic. i was just making the point that yes, what people see on the screen that even barely resembles filipino arts at least does excite them to maybe investigate it more. perfect weapon was a good point. i did a kali demo at the opening of perfect weapon in west palm beach fl with my instructor. we did this demo with sean kelly of lake worth fl. he is an kenpo instructor there.


 
Ah, I see what you're saying.

Ironically, many of the movie fight scenes lately that actually ARE using FMA don't get attributed properly because they AREN'T using double sticks.


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## khand50

i used to work at walmart in electronics where i live and i pointed out to people that they used the filipino arts in movies such as the bourne identity and the hunted. then i tried to explain a little of what the filipino arts were.  it made for some fun conversations while i worked..lol...  the hunted was really good.  i got to train with chris sayoc in wpb fl in 1991 during a seminar at our school.  his father, bo,  used to come over from naples with some of his students to attend seminars and bo taught a seminar once as well.  really nice people.  bo sent me a christmas card one year while i was living in illinois.  i was sorry to hear that he passed on.  
the use of the weapons phase of kali,  (and i use the term kali like one would say kung fu or karate) hasnt really been exploited as much as it could be.   jeff imada has made an impact of film work as both stuntman and choreagrapher,  and has used the filipino arts in various movies.  there was a movie in the 70's with roland dante that featured some kali but it could have been much better.  
they have the ip man movie out,  maybe they should do a floro villabrille movie.  he was something else,  from all the accounts i have read.  maybe someone will write a script for  "the kali kid".  i havent enough experience with screenplay writing or i would. i have had ideas for a story like that and dabble in writing short stories for my own amusement.  i think i would turn out better than the karate kid.  but,  i really liked the idea of that original film.   it was well done,  even though a little hokey.  i liked the idea behind the film,  i should say.   i would have never picked ralph machio for the role....


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## ap Oweyn

I have one of Roland Dante's films on video.  "Stickfighter."  I believe it was released elsewhere as "The Pacific Connection."


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## khand50

yes!  that is the one.  i have that too.  i remember it coming out because i read an article in the old fighting stars magazine in the 70's.  i miss the older magazines.  there seemed to be better interviewing going on then.  or maybe it was less politics...im not sure.  i had a collection of black belt magazines from 64-77,  all the karate illustrated and official karate magazine that came out from 69-77, and every other one that came out in illinois then,  like masters of self defense,  oriental fighting arts,  fighting stars and so on.  for some reason we never got inside kung fu in our town.  later when i found out about it i was really aggravated.  it was one of my favorite magazines.


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## Rich Parsons

ap Oweyn said:


> Actually, according to Guro Inosanto, Lee was utterly nonplussed about kali. And hadn't looked into it himself when he picked up the two sticks and started doing his thing. Inosanto remarked "hey, you're doing largo mano!" Lee replied that he was simply doing his thing with the sticks. Implying that any resemblance to kali was completely coincidental.
> 
> That said, _any_ double stick work on screen is going to be attributed to kali, for better or worse. I remember when "The Perfect Weapon" came out in theaters. Our local EPAK teachers came out and did demos. I was chatting with them afterward when people started coming up and asking whether Speakman did kali (much to their annoyance). What he does in that movie doesn't especially resemble kali. But two sticks equals FMA to John Q Public. (The segment of the public that's ever even heard of kali, that is.)
> 
> 
> Stuart


 
Stuart,

The Pefect Weapon and Speakman had those comments as the pattern (sinawali) he did apears in multiple arts. If it was not influenced, I wonder about the creation process. Good ideas come about when they are ready, and can be done independantly. 

Thanks


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## ap Oweyn

Rich Parsons said:


> Stuart,
> 
> The Pefect Weapon and Speakman had those comments as the pattern (sinawali) he did apears in multiple arts. If it was not influenced, I wonder about the creation process. Good ideas come about when they are ready, and can be done independantly.
> 
> Thanks


 
Oh sure. I'm not suggesting there's no relation. Just stating that the EPAK teachers (in this particular case) were annoyed by the implication that, if it was double stick, it must be kali. (Whether they were rightly or wrongly annoyed at the implication is a different question.) And I agree that certain patterns are inevitable given the same tools. That said, with experience, it's not difficult to spot the differences between krabi krabong and ni ten ichi kenjutsu (despite the fact that both are using two swords) or FMA solo baston and la canne (despite the fact that both are using a single stick).

I'm not sure I've heard the story of how double stick and double knife came to be introduced to EPAK.  I've never studied it myself, so my exposure to its history is limited to the really obvious points.

Lots of styles have telling stylistic nuances. I'm simply saying that what influences the public is their perception (based on whatever level of insight into what they're watching) of what they're watching. So that, I'm almost sure that the Bourne trilogy did wonders for enrollment at krav maga schools, despite the fact that people familiar with Jeff Imada (or anyone who watched the extra features) would know that it wasn't krav maga being used for the movie. 


Stuart


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## chris arena

Although I am primarily of Modern Arnis background. I feel that we have left out Manong Angel Cabales,Leo Giron and Max Saramiento. They  had the first Eskrima School in the US. Dan Inasanto even came to them for lessons. 

These men should definately be on this list. It is a shame that his art dild not start to grow until after his death. They were the original pioneers. Prior to the others.

Chris Arena


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## ap Oweyn

chris arena said:


> Although I am primarily of Modern Arnis background. I feel that we have left out Manong Angel Cabales,Leo Giron and Max Saramiento.


 
I dunno about that.  Guros Leo Giron and Angel Cabales are mentioned multiple times on pages 2 and 3 of this discussion.  Max Sarmiento wasn't, it's true.


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## edgedweapons

Crafty Dog, Head Instructor of the Dog Brothers has made a Huge impact in my opinion. His Gatherings, Teachings, and Character has Impacted Many


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