# Finally a teacher....



## charyuop (Aug 19, 2006)

After a long time with videos I finally found someone in my town who teaches Tai Chi. It is done purely for health, he teaches breathing through Chi Kong, starts with 8 base forms and he said as advanced goes on to 24. Unfortunately no martial art aspect into it, no push hands or applications...but hey, learning from someone who knows the bases and who can correct my errors is always a good beginning.
In parallel I will not give up studying the Long Form from the videos and maybe in the future I will manage to find someone who is going to teach me the MA aspect of Tai Chi.


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 19, 2006)

Glad to hear it, keep pursing it and you will get there

If he/she knows the form and the breathing it sounds like a good place to start.

There can be some minor differences between postures in the 24 form and the traditional long form, it depends on the teacher. If I do 24 it looks very traditional, but that is because I have done traditional for so long.  

But there is nothing wrong with Tai Chi for health as long it as the student is made aware by the teacher that is what it is.

Keep us posted.


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## Jade Tigress (Aug 20, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> Glad to hear it, keep pursing it and you will get there
> 
> If he/she knows the form and the breathing it sounds like a good place to start.
> 
> ...



I agree. It's a good starting point, and you are well aware this teacher is not incorporating the martial aspects of the art. You can at least get a base in it, which should give you an advantage when you find someone who can teach you the applications. 

As XS said, please keep us posted.


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## charyuop (Aug 20, 2006)

I will. I can't wait to start....first lesson Sept 7th


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## charyuop (Aug 25, 2006)

Biiiiig disappointment....
I found another teacher of Tai Chi and she told me that there are 3 people teaching Tai Chi in my town and all of them coming from the same "master".
She explained me that they all teach only breathing and 8 form, for advanced the 24 form. I asked her about the martial art part of it and she answered "yes Tai Chi is a mild martial art, but mostly it is for health". She told me that her "master" showed them a couple of times push hands in a class, but they were never really tought it. When I told her that I knew the long form learnt from videos she told me that their master never tought them the long form coz she thought it was a waste of time coz there were just a bunch of repetitions.
I am afraid I am putting myself in the hands of someone that of Tai Chi knows less than I do...the only thing I might really learn is the breathing part and that is it.

My wife told me that when she was doing karate here in town there was a man sparring with them who used to teach Tai Chi and show to them Tai Chi applied for fighting. She said he was really good...but since the karate school closed she doesn't know what happened to him or if he still teaches Tai Chi.

Man, this is so depressing...I have to go and learn a marial art from someone who doesn't even define it as martial art! I will attend 2 classes a week, with two different teachers since they come from the same root and teach the same things it can't hurt. So the wait is no longer till Sept. 7th, but next Wendsday I will have the first class.
I am no longer that eager to start, but now I am mostly scared....scared to learn as basics wrong stuff.


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## SFC JeffJ (Aug 25, 2006)

I feel for ya.  I've been going through the same exact thing.  So I've decided to put that on hold and go study at a local Bujinkan dojo.  

Hope things work out for ya,

Jeff


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 25, 2006)

charyuop said:
			
		

> Biiiiig disappointment....
> I found another teacher of Tai Chi and she told me that there are 3 people teaching Tai Chi in my town and all of them coming from the same "master".
> She explained me that they all teach only breathing and 8 form, for advanced the 24 form. I asked her about the martial art part of it and she answered "yes Tai Chi is a mild martial art, but mostly it is for health". She told me that her "master" showed them a couple of times push hands in a class, but they were never really tought it. When I told her that I knew the long form learnt from videos she told me that their master never tought them the long form coz she thought it was a waste of time coz there were just a bunch of repetitions.
> I am afraid I am putting myself in the hands of someone that of Tai Chi knows less than I do...the only thing I might really learn is the breathing part and that is it.
> ...


 
Worry about breathing and basic forms first, don't worry about the martial arts just yet. It sounds like a good place to start, but it also sounds like a place you will out grow. This happened to me at my first Tai Chi school as well. 

Also many people that teach the whole program, If you will, in Tai Chi tend not to advertise. Especially if they are Chinese. Go with what you got, learn what you can and move on if you feel you must and who knows it could lead you to the teacher you are looking for.

24 form is not a bad form; to be honest it is currently the only Yang style type form I do, although as I mentioned it tends to look very traditional these days. All the rest if focused on another family style these days.


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## Nebuchadnezzar (Sep 1, 2006)

charyuop said:
			
		

> Biiiiig disappointment....
> ....She explained me that they all teach only breathing and 8 form, for advanced the 24 form. I asked her about the martial art part of it and she answered "yes Tai Chi is a mild martial art, but mostly it is for health". She told me that her "master" showed them a couple of times push hands in a class, but they were never really tought it. When I told her that I knew the long form learnt from videos she told me that their master never tought them the long form coz she thought it was a waste of time coz there were just a bunch of repetitions....


 
The "Master" sounds like a master of nothing from those comments.  Sounds like one of those people who learn two forms and declares themselves "A Master of Tai Chi" and can now teach, never learning anything other than those two forms.

You'll definitely outgrow these people quickly if you are as serious as you sound about learning Tai Chi Chuan as opposed to "Tai Cheese".  Take the lessons for a foundation and keep looking for someone who actually teaches Tai Chi Chuan.  One day, you may be the one they come to in order to learn Tai Chi.


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## charyuop (Sep 2, 2006)

Unfortunately I had to skip the first lesson last Wend. For the excitement of having found a Tai Chi teacher I had forgotten I had to take my wife for a Dr visit ;P

They never claimed to be masters, they only said they teach Tai Chi for health, so I guess they don't wanna create any expectation in me.

Anyway, I have gotten in touch with of the man who would teach Tai Chi at my wife's karate dojo. He said that he hasn't tought Tai Chi in many years and he won't do it again, he now teaches Aikido. He told me that the Master who tought Tai Chi to those people I will be learning from, her name is Judy Fu, is very good and knows Tai Chi at very high levels. The only thing he said she is very picky on who she teaches it to, she just stops at the health aspect of it.
He suggested me to start with Judy's students and further on if I am still intersted try to get in touch with their Master and see if I can get her to teach me.


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## ArmorOfGod (Sep 2, 2006)

I found a few things that may or may not help you with your tai chi search.
In Ponca City, OK, there are tai chi practices in the park every Saturday morning.  It looks like they did it during the summer, but maybe you could track down who led that.  Click here for a calendar to see that:
http://calendar.poncacity.com/calendar.php?type=month&calendar=3&category=&day=1&month=06&year=2006

Here is a list of Oklahoma schools with a few tai chi listings.  Are any of them near you?:
http://www.challengermartialarts.com/schoolsOK.htm

This is from the poncacitynews.com site:
Tai Chi every Wednesday at 4:30 p.m. at third floor gathering area at First Christian Church, Fifth and Cleveland. Beginners are welcome. Becky Helems is the instructor. For more information call 762-1667. 

This place gave tai chi classes 2 years ago and the teacher's name is listed.  I wonder if the still do.:
http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:Ni9zTZhsvSoJ:www.ossm.edu/weekly/sep-9-2005.pdf+Ponca+City,+Oklahoma+tai+chi&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=10

Click here and look near the bottom.  There is a tai chi class listed:
http://www.flcspc.com/announcements.htm

Maybe one of those will pan out for you.

AoG


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 2, 2006)

charyuop said:
			
		

> Unfortunately I had to skip the first lesson last Wend. For the excitement of having found a Tai Chi teacher I had forgotten I had to take my wife for a Dr visit ;P
> 
> They never claimed to be masters, they only said they teach Tai Chi for health, so I guess they don't wanna create any expectation in me.
> 
> ...


 
Once again sounds like a plan.

On occasion some very good teachers of Tai Chi, particularly old school types from China like to see proof of dedication before they take on a student. There is one of those near me, however he is in his late 80s and comes from very old school.


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## charyuop (Sep 2, 2006)

I don't know how old Mrs. Fu is and if she is old school/mentality. Anyway I guess learning the basics, 8 form and 24 form won't take 1 week, so for now the problem will be delayed hee hee.

Armor Of God, the 3 people at the churches in your articles are all 3 students of Master Fu and they are the ones whose classes I will attend (except the monday morning one coz I have to take care of my 1 year old baby). The one in the park it was a summer exibition held by one of the students and his class.
I talked to them and they confirmed me that there won't be any problem in attending all classes even if with different teachers, on the contrary it will give me more time to practice. But thank you very much for your information.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 2, 2006)

charyuop said:
			
		

> I don't know how old Mrs. Fu is and if she is old school/mentality. Anyway I guess learning the basics, 8 form and 24 form won't take 1 week, so for now the problem will be delayed hee hee.


 
My first teacher took 12 weeks for 24 with refinement and my second teacher took 15 weeks for 108, or 103 depending on how you count, fpr just the form, refinement was the next 15 weeks. It is hard to say how long it will take for any form since it varies depending on the teacher's style and goals for the class and it also very much depends on the other students in the class.  

Good luck and I hope it is what you are looking for, keep trying and you will get there.


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## charyuop (Sep 6, 2006)

Ok, first lesson done...I don't wanna say anything coz I haven't been at other classes of Tai Chi, but I let you decide.

"I arrive first and she explains me that in Tai Chi we breathe trhough the nose keeping the tongue kinda curled up attached to the top of the mouth. End breathing explaination. Then arrive another couple of new guys and she shows us the first 3 or 4 movements of the 8 form. We are supposed to copy her without her correcting our feet or positions. After a little while practicing the 8 form here come the old students. So all together we start (the new guys) copying the first 5 or 6 movements of the 24 form. Of course even in this case, pure copying, no correction or suggestions. I got out of there that I remember 0, but really 0".

Tai Cheese??? I hope the class with the second teacher will be better, because like this I am afraid of learning only wrong stuff.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 6, 2006)

charyuop said:


> Ok, first lesson done...I don't wanna say anything coz I haven't been at other classes of Tai Chi, but I let you decide.
> 
> "I arrive first and she explains me that in Tai Chi we breathe trhough the nose keeping the tongue kinda curled up attached to the top of the mouth. End breathing explaination. Then arrive another couple of new guys and she shows us the first 3 or 4 movements of the 8 form. We are supposed to copy her without her correcting our feet or positions. After a little while practicing the 8 form here come the old students. So all together we start (the new guys) copying the first 5 or 6 movements of the 24 form. Of course even in this case, pure copying, no correction or suggestions. I got out of there that I remember 0, but really 0".
> 
> Tai Cheese??? I hope the class with the second teacher will be better, because like this I am afraid of learning only wrong stuff.


 
Most teachers, or at least my experience has been, that most teachers, myself included when I use to teach, do not do a whole lot of correction in the beginning. 

When I taught 24 I would show my students the form and get them roughly close. After they had the entire form I would then refine. However if someone was way off in the beginning you need to correct his or her form. If they are fairly close then wait for refinement. 

My Traditional Yang style teacher would teach about 10 forms a class and it is not uncommon to leave class and remember little or nothing, particularly in the beginning. You are focusing on everything in the room, the other students, the teacher, the room, etc. 

Also going over breathing in the beginning is a good thing, but I do not believe going over breathing in detail is a good thing in the beginning.

Sorry I need to use a name here to make the point.

My teacher's teacher (Tung Ying Cheih) when asked about breathing generally answered, "yes you should" when asked by beginners.

It is also hard to judge many classes by the first class, go to a few and then see how you feel about it

But the best thing to do, is not let any of us influence you, go with how you feel about it, give it a little time.


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## charyuop (Sep 7, 2006)

Thanx, I feel a little relieved by your words. I will give it some time and see what happens.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 7, 2006)

charyuop said:


> Thanx, I feel a little relieved by your words. I will give it some time and see what happens.


 
Keep us posted


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## charyuop (Sep 7, 2006)

WOW, the leasson with the second teacher was really great.
We started with a nice warm out which really warmed me "hot" LOL. Then all the class did the 8 form together and told me to follow the more I could, since they repeat (don't know if it is all 8 form like this) each movement 4 times he told me to try to look at the first one or two and follow with the rest.
After the 8 form was done another teacher who goes to class to practice took me aside to teach me privately. He explained me that we start we two deep breathing more for a "getting used to it", because (as Xue already told me) to include real breathing in the form is a long process.
He worked with me with the first two movement (the commencement, sun rise-sun set or whatever people call it...hee hee and heavy hands move like cloud). He worked with me with my posture (which he said he could tell it was laready very good) and feet positions. He showed me well the movement of the hands and transictions.
We closed the day with few exercises of Qi Gong, thing that yesterday we didn't even talk about.

I admit that after yesterday I was a little bit depressed about this and almost thought about going to Aikido, but after today I am very positive on the whole thing.


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## IWishToLearn (Sep 7, 2006)

Dang. Now I want to go back to studying T'ai Chi.


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## Nebuchadnezzar (Sep 7, 2006)

charyuop said:


> Ok, first lesson done...I don't wanna say anything coz I haven't been at other classes of Tai Chi, but I let you decide.
> 
> "I arrive first and she explains me that in Tai Chi we breathe trhough the nose keeping the tongue kinda curled up attached to the top of the mouth. End breathing explaination. Then arrive another couple of new guys and she shows us the first 3 or 4 movements of the 8 form. We are supposed to copy her without her correcting our feet or positions. After a little while practicing the 8 form here come the old students. So all together we start (the new guys) copying the first 5 or 6 movements of the 24 form. Of course even in this case, pure copying, no correction or suggestions. I got out of there that I remember 0, but really 0".
> 
> Tai Cheese??? I hope the class with the second teacher will be better, because like this I am afraid of learning only wrong stuff.


 
Not sure what others with far more experience than I have would say but, it kind of smells funny in here right now.  My first class, Sifu showed it and then had me do each movement.  He would stop me and correct EVERYTHING that wasn't right or at least acceptible for someone just starting.

Advanced students who were present received correction as needed.  No following Sifu until he was sure I was at the very least moving correctly for a beginner.  He changed focus to push-hands for a while, and then went back to forms for the last 10 minutes of the class.

Maybe it's because we're doing Traditional Yang 85.....


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## Nebuchadnezzar (Sep 7, 2006)

charyuop said:


> WOW, the leasson with the second teacher was really great.
> We started with a nice warm out which really warmed me "hot" LOL. Then all the class did the 8 form together and told me to follow the more I could, since they repeat (don't know if it is all 8 form like this) each movement 4 times he told me to try to look at the first one or two and follow with the rest.
> After the 8 form was done another teacher who goes to class to practice took me aside to teach me privately. He explained me that we start we two deep breathing more for a "getting used to it", because (as Xue already told me) to include real breathing in the form is a long process.
> He worked with me with the first two movement (the commencement, sun rise-sun set or whatever people call it...hee hee and heavy hands move like cloud). He worked with me with my posture (which he said he could tell it was laready very good) and feet positions. He showed me well the movement of the hands and transictions.
> ...


 
The air smell clean in this place.  This sounds more like it.  Good luck!


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 8, 2006)

charyuop said:


> WOW, the leasson with the second teacher was really great.
> We started with a nice warm out which really warmed me "hot" LOL. Then all the class did the 8 form together and told me to follow the more I could, since they repeat (don't know if it is all 8 form like this) each movement 4 times he told me to try to look at the first one or two and follow with the rest.
> After the 8 form was done another teacher who goes to class to practice took me aside to teach me privately. He explained me that we start we two deep breathing more for a "getting used to it", because (as Xue already told me) to include real breathing in the form is a long process.
> He worked with me with the first two movement (the commencement, sun rise-sun set or whatever people call it...hee hee and heavy hands move like cloud). He worked with me with my posture (which he said he could tell it was laready very good) and feet positions. He showed me well the movement of the hands and transictions.
> ...


 
Glad to hear it. 

As always, keep us posted.


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## charyuop (Sep 9, 2006)

Xue I have a question. I was told by the teacher that the way their master wants them to do the beginning (sunrise/sunset) is with feet wider then shoulders width and feet not parallel because this way it is more useful for health since it allows the body to go lower and work better hip/legs. I admit that I like it this way coz I really feel the work done on my legs. After months of long form I had never felt the same effort that I feel this way.
I was just wondering if it is really something their master wants and maybe introduced or it is used in 8 form also from other masters.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 9, 2006)

charyuop said:


> Xue I have a question. I was told by the teacher that the way their master wants them to do the beginning (sunrise/sunset) is with feet wider then shoulders width and feet not parallel because this way it is more useful for health since it allows the body to go lower and work better hip/legs. I admit that I like it this way coz I really feel the work done on my legs. After months of long form I had never felt the same effort that I feel this way.
> I was just wondering if it is really something their master wants and maybe introduced or it is used in 8 form also from other masters.


 
I really cannot say, I never have done the 8 form (Yang Style: Traditional long form, Traditional fast form, 24 form, 48 form, weapons, Qigong, etc but not the 8), and it may depend on who their master's teacher was. 

My Yang style Sifu does his long form a little different than Sifu Chu in Boston because they have different teachers but their teachers both had the same teacher (Yang Chengfu). I also have done some Cheng Manching style, and I rather liked it, but it very different from both of my teacher and Sifu Chu in Boston and Cheng's teacher was also Yang Chengfu. All 3 are good all 3 have their advantages and disadvantages. However I do not see anything wrong with any of these ways of doing the form.

As to the wider stance, if you feel it is working for you then go with it at least for now. As a side note; this is one of the things I like about Chen style; its stance tends to be lower and wider than Yang style. And at least for me easier to develop the internal side, but this is just me. Many feel the same way about Yang, Sun, Wu, Zhabao and Wu/Hao. It basically comes down to which style you feel is best for you.

And another note on stance which one is better depends on whom you talk to: My Yang Style teacher says Chen is to low and a member of the Chen family I talked to says Yang is too high.


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## charyuop (Sep 12, 2006)

Great day today at the class 
Master Judy Fu was there to test old students and she wanted to see our teachers too so she did parts of the form with them...wow she got excellent skills.
I talked to her after class a while and she said she teaches 8-24 and 48 forms traditional Yang style. She said people told her that her 48 looks alot like Chen style. After the 48 if someone interested she also teaches the Chen style. When you are done with the 48 she also introduces the sword form. She said she knows something called "tao Sword"? (her accent was heavy and  couldn't understand well) and she said usually Master teach that form only to 2 students or at least it used to be like that.

But the best part of the daywas when I asked if she teaches push hands. She said she used to 10 years ago, but she would find problems from students in understanding it. They couldn't feel it and do it right so she quit. Since I couldnt understand what she meant she showed it to me (WOW first push hands done ever YAYYYYYYY). She told me to push as hard as I could and at first I didn't (she is a small woman and didn't want to hurt her), but when she said is that all you can I pushed hard. She asked me if I couldn't harder and I said yes, but I wanna keep my balance and she said that is the point. You have to be able to feel when I am the one coming in to youand receive my energy, thing that she had trouble to get through to people. So maybe in a couple of years I might ask her to teach me push hands hee hee.

(For the records, after a while of showing me push hands and her trying to make me understand the receiving part...she made me fly back hee hee).


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 12, 2006)

charyuop said:


> Great day today at the class
> Master Judy Fu was there to test old students and she wanted to see our teachers too so she did parts of the form with them...wow she got excellent skills.
> I talked to her after class a while and she said she teaches 8-24 and 48 forms traditional Yang style. She said people told her that her 48 looks alot like Chen style. After the 48 if someone interested she also teaches the Chen style. When you are done with the 48 she also introduces the sword form. She said she knows something called "tao Sword"? (her accent was heavy and couldn't understand well) and she said usually Master teach that form only to 2 students or at least it used to be like that.
> 
> ...


 
Glad to here it and I have to admit 48 form, although not considered traditional Yang, does look a bit like Chen. It sounds good so far so stick with it. 

And my Yang style sifu was considerably smaller than me and he had little problem moving me around as well.


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## charyuop (Sep 15, 2006)

I have a question about breathing. My teacher said not to worry about that in the beginning coz it will fix itself, but I don't see how it can happen.
While doing the forms the teachers says breathe in and breathe out when we are supposed to, but for the speed of the form I finish breathing in or breathing out long before the movement is done. I tried to slow down the breathing but in doing so all I get is getting a heavy breathing (like after you run) thus I need to breath faster. Is it normal?


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## East Winds (Sep 15, 2006)

Charyuop,

Your question regarding breathing is very much tied in with a question you asked earlier about Fa Jing. Breathing is also a very contentious issue in Taijiquan, particularly in beginning classes. Many teachers believe that beginners have more than enough to contend with co-ordinating hands and feet, shoulders and hips, elbows and knees without also having to co-ordinate the breathing!!! In any case, particularly in Traditional Yang, it is not as simple as breathing in at the beginning of a posture and then breathing out at the end of it!!!! Breathing out is of course co-ordinated with the issuing of Fa Jing. Therefore theoretically, every time you wish to issue Fa Jing you breath out - during the transitions you breathe in. 

As to 48 step, it is a modern Wushu competition form and cotains the most difficult of the postures from Chen, Yang, Wu and Sun styles. It is a very demanding form and the best I have seen is by an American girl called Kelly McLean. She is featured on a video by Liang Shou-Yu.

The 8 Form is an even more modern form developed in Beijing in 1998 and approved by the International Wushu Federation. It is called Yang style, but like so many of these forms the Yang Family themselves had absolutely no input it them.

Sounds like you are enjoying your training. Keep at it

Very best wishes


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 15, 2006)

East Winds said:


> Charyuop,
> 
> Your question regarding breathing is very much tied in with a question you asked earlier about Fa Jing. Breathing is also a very contentious issue in Taijiquan, particularly in beginning classes. Many teachers believe that beginners have more than enough to contend with co-ordinating hands and feet, shoulders and hips, elbows and knees without also having to co-ordinate the breathing!!! In any case, particularly in Traditional Yang, it is not as simple as breathing in at the beginning of a posture and then breathing out at the end of it!!!! Breathing out is of course co-ordinated with the issuing of Fa Jing. Therefore theoretically, every time you wish to issue Fa Jing you breath out - during the transitions you breathe in.


 
Agreed, as I have said many times before when asked by new students about how to breathe and coordinate that with the form Tung Ying Cheih generally answered "Yes you should"

Coordinating the form is enough for now. 




			
				East Winds said:
			
		

> As to 48 step, it is a modern Wushu competition form and cotains the most difficult of the postures from Chen, Yang, Wu and Sun styles. It is a very demanding form and the best I have seen is by an American girl called Kelly McLean. She is featured on a video by Liang Shou-Yu.


 
Also agreed. I have to admit Kelly McLean is very good at 48.


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