# Is Adrian Roman correct about the evolution of kenpo?



## Sarjahm (Jan 1, 2007)

Adrian said that EPAK is like a vintage car....nice to look at and find in it's day, but not very practical in modern times. Speakman seems to have a smilar philosophy with his "Kenpo 5.0". Could it be that Parker kenpo is going the way of the dinosaurs?

http://www.blackbelt4all.com/nativekenpo/index.htm

Grandmaster Ed Parker formulated American Kenpo in the 1970s and died in 1990.  Thus, his final work occurred between 25 and 30 years ago. Had he lived he would have adapted his system and it would be nothing like American Kenpo instructors are teaching today.  

Grandmaster Parker joked that when a student black belt came to him and pointed out flaws in his teaching he would make that student his protégé. That no one came forward was a credit to Parker and his loyal following.  Students hung on every word and accepted his work with blind faith.  

The fact is, Parker taught some techniques which were simply absurd in terms of practical value.  Today, there are thousands of Kenpoists learning and teaching material that does not work.   If students would use one of Grandmaster Parkers principles, cause and effect they would see these problems.  Had Parker continued living he would have seen these flaw for himself and fine-tuned his system. 

Parker worked in a time where bigger was better.  I believe that having three brown belt levels were put in to keep hungry brown belts in school longer. Extensions were added and except for 1st brown these extensions served no good purpose. When I was training in the 1970s there were 32 techniques per belt level.  Green/Orange (1st degree brown) and Short 3 was the 1st degree black belt material.  

Parker did not write the extensions after this level and techniques were reworked, adding extensions with no added value. In some cases the technique extensions were absurd violating sound underlying principles. _This is the key: If you have to resort to extension to get the job done, then youd better go back to the base move and work it better  or   choose another technique_.   

 When Parker died, he left seven (7) 7th degrees black belt and no protégé to take over his system of American Kenpo. I can only assume that out of respect to him, they have left the system intact and still teach a system that is somewhat outdated.  

Out of respect to the Master I have begin to fix much of the material and add a new approach to a wonderful system of self-defense. What I have done is not brain surgery. I have been studying and teaching the system for thirty-three years. It was not a difficult to come up with new arrangement of Kenpo, benefiting from my experience at creating my own Native American system of Tushka-homma.  

I plan to produce a DVD series that address the Fatal Flaws of American Kenpo Most Kenpo instructors who are worth salt by this time should be teaching a revised version of American Kenpo and they will appreciate new ideas.. If they are not they are behind the time.


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## michaeledward (Jan 1, 2007)

Sounds to me like someone is sticking a few extra feathers in his head dress. Of course, that is not necessarily a rare event in the world of Kenpo, is it?


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## Kwiter (Jan 1, 2007)

Kwe Hello Sarjahm, the ole Chief isn't too well thought of round these parts it seems, look over some old threads on distance learning and you'll see some more info. I purchased Adrian Roman's DVD set yellow-black and the Kata DVD, other than some production problems such as it appearing to have been shot with consumer Camera or REALLY old Pro stuff and his leaving a few flubs in which to me is no big deal I found the material pretty good. I of course am NOT an expert in EPAK and you can take my opinion with a grain of salt.

I find the DVD's a good addition to my daughters training, to do the distance learning you'd need to be dedicated
 since there's no one there but you to push you on, also no one to correct your errors in technique.

I bought my DVD's direct from Adrian Roman on Ebay, for the $99, at that price it's not a bad deal, if I had paid $999 I wouldn't be as happy. then again I'm unlikely to spend $999 on any set of videos ;-) I balk at the usual $29.99 per DVD prices I see for Videos and LOVE Netflix just wish they had a larger Training selection.


It's funny , I just emailed the Chief inquiring about him(or me if he hasn't the time) setting up a yahoogroup for discussions for users of his Tapes(they appear to have been originally video tapes converted to DVD)
This would hopefully allow those with questions a quicker response.

finally to answer your question, Hell if I know if Adrian Roman's ideas are the Evolution. EVERYONE has an opinion, reminds me of the Rodney Dangerfield movie where he's Rich and goes back to School with his son, since he's Rich he hires Kurt Vonagut(spelling?) to do his term paper on one of his own pieces, the Teacher fails the paper telling Dangerfield that his paper was written by someone who has NO IDEA what Kurt Vonagut was talking about ;-)

Many things have fiercely devoted folks who assume that what THEY learned is the Be all and all. Thankfully not everyone is this way but the zealots tend to be most vocal 

I'm also I'm not impartial as Adrian Roman and I are both First Nations, he being Chocktaw and me being a Kahnawake Mohawk so I tend to WANT him to succeed ;-)

Skennen Peace


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## ArmorOfGod (Jan 1, 2007)

Even though I agree with Roman on this, I can't take him seriously
Read this from his site:



> The programs are listed below and they include the Teaching Certificate when you place your order.
> 
> 7th  degree (Warrior) Diploma and school franchise is available $28,000.
> 
> ...



That is at: http://www.tushkahoma.com/Main 2.htm

But, this has been covered a million times about him.

AoG


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## Mariachi Joe (Jan 1, 2007)

What about Paul Mills didn't he make some adustments to what he learned from Parker and teach an updated American Kenpo?


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## Kwiter (Jan 2, 2007)

I wonder if ANYONE has ever paid those prices for Adrian Roman's materials.
From the HIGH pricing I'd ASSUME it's more of a Franchise Fee than anything but as I say I'm prejudiced as a fellow First Nations person.

Skennen Peace.


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## Monadnock (Jan 2, 2007)

Sarjahm said:


> Adrian said that EPAK is like a vintage car....nice to look at and find in it's day, but not very practical in modern times. Speakman seems to have a smilar philosophy with his "Kenpo 5.0". Could it be that Parker kenpo is going the way of the dinosaurs?
> 
> http://www.blackbelt4all.com/nativekenpo/index.htm
> 
> ...


 
Good luck.


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## MJS (Jan 2, 2007)

Well, I don't want to bash the man, so I'll choose my words carefully.   If you use the search feature, there should be a few posts about Mr. Roman floating around here.  As for the updates, etc.  Everyone teaches different, and we've seen Speakman and Mills make their own adaptations to what they're doing.  

As for the cost.  Speaking for myself, I would not pay $28,000 for someone to hand me a rank.  I'd rather go out and spend that 28 grand on something more meaningful.  Now, this isn't to say that I don't think my rank has meaning to it, but I'd much rather bust my butt, putting in sweat and hard work, rather than have it handed to me.  That IMO is a much better payment.  

Mike


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## kosho (Jan 2, 2007)

What a joke. If you want to pass things on then do so. If you can make a living doing this then great. But how many people are truly going to pay this fee...28,000...  wow I must be under chargeing my students... LOL
I talk with him about 6 years ago.  he tried selling me the warrier system
for $299.00 with my 1st degree coming with it signed dated 1 year later..
I guess that was a good deal then LOL.  
Kosho


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## Brian Jones (Jan 2, 2007)

We sem to be discussing/ aruging over two different thigns. Was Mr. Roman corerct in his article, and the resentment over his home study course.  They are separate issues.  For the record, no I don't think he is correct.  The system is fine its all in how we learn and train.  As a memebr of the AKKI (and again its my personal opinion) Mr, Mills has never aid he was "evolving EPAK" or that htere were  flaws.  Bt the AKKI does believe there are methods by which we can make our Kenpo more efficient.

Brian Jones


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## Seabrook (Jan 2, 2007)

ArmorOfGod said:


> Even though I agree with Roman on this, I can't take him seriously
> Read this from his site:
> 
> 
> ...


 
Words cannot even begin to describe my negative opinions on this. It is no wonder that a lot of people in martial arts (that are not Kenpo Karate practitioners) don't take Kenpo serious as a top notch art.

Jamie Seabrook


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## masherdong (Jan 2, 2007)

I like some of the weapons that he has for sale, but I do not think I would buy from him.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jan 2, 2007)

I have echoed the idea that extensions are a waste of time if you have not nailed the base technique. I have stated similar sentiments myself here on MT. However, I in no way believe that Adrian is even remotely qualified to make any corrections. His video tracks demonstrate horrible basics, and no understanding of the underlying concepts or principles present in the base techniques. 

Does he have some points? Sure. Is he the guy to fix them? Hell no. His point of origination is so flawed, that he would have to put another 20 years into fixing his own broke self before he would even be at a starting point of qualification to offer an opinion on long-term solutions. He represents exactly what is broken about kenpo: Incompetent practitioners making unformed modifications to material they never "got" in the first place.

As someone with a good snifter of Cherokee and Choctaw in my veins (on of my maternal great grand-mothers was on the Trail of Tears) and 35 years in kenpo, I am ashamed by his antics...both as an American aboriginal, and a kenpoist.

Sincerely,

David. W. Crouch, DC
Student of Kenpo


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## Tames D (Jan 2, 2007)

Seabrook said:


> Words cannot even begin to describe my negative opinions on this. It is no wonder that a lot of people in martial arts (that are not Kenpo Karate practitioners) don't take Kenpo serious as a top notch art.
> 
> Jamie Seabrook


 
I agree with you Jaime. Although I believe Kenpo is a good fighting system, I have personally heard alot of negative comments over the years from people that only know of Kenpo from practitioners like him. I guess it's the image that's put out there.


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## Tames D (Jan 2, 2007)

QUI-GON said:


> I agree with you Jaime. Although I believe Kenpo is a good fighting system, I have personally heard alot of negative comments over the years from people that only know of Kenpo from practitioners like him. I guess it's the image that's put out there.


Just for clarification I want to say that I have had some intense workouts with Kenpo guys in the past and I know it's a good fighting system, it just seems to have a bad reputation/image with some people.


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## HKphooey (Jan 2, 2007)

Every art has its "Roman".


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## Carol (Jan 2, 2007)

QUI-GON said:


> Just for clarification I want to say that I have had some intense workouts with Kenpo guys in the past and I know it's a good fighting system, it just seems to have a bad reputation/image with some people.


 
It's more than just the bad apples of the many Kenpo/Kempo substyles...a lot of the dreck is related to how the name has been used.  Same with Ninjutsu, and other fighting systems.   There's a lot of dreck out there.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 2, 2007)

Just as with any system or style, about eighty percent could pick up the slack a little. Its natural for practitioners to fall in to a rut.
Sean


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## Hand Sword (Jan 3, 2007)

I think some of what was said is correct. Had Mr. Parker lived, He would have kept growing as a person and an artist, as we all do. He would have most assuredly kept evolving his system, adding, deleting, twisting, etc.. However, I disagree about what was added was useless. It had a point to Mr. Parker at the time, even if it was a small point, or else it would not have been added.
With all due respect to Mr. Roman, I would suggest that he continues to improve and evolove, before hitting Mr. Parker. From what Ive seen of him, he definitely could use the work.


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## ArmorOfGod (Jan 3, 2007)

Wow, doesn't this all sound identical to the orginal jeet kune do vs. jeet kune do concepts arguement?

AoG


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## Carol (Jan 3, 2007)

ArmorOfGod said:


> Wow, doesn't this all sound identical to the orginal jeet kune do vs. jeet kune do concepts arguement?
> 
> AoG


 
Yep.  All in the name of more customers.


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## Hand Sword (Jan 3, 2007)

Isn't it truly sad?


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## hongkongfooey (Jan 7, 2007)

It kind of makes one wonder why the chief didn't complain to Ed Parker about his system, when he was alive. Oh, that's right, he would have been proved wrong.


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## IWishToLearn (Jan 7, 2007)

Heh.


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## Doc (Jan 7, 2007)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> I have echoed the idea that extensions are a waste of time if you have not nailed the base technique. I have stated similar sentiments myself here on MT. However, I in no way believe that Adrian is even remotely qualified to make any corrections. His video tracks demonstrate horrible basics, and no understanding of the underlying concepts or principles present in the base techniques.
> 
> Does he have some points? Sure. Is he the guy to fix them? Hell no. His point of origination is so flawed, that he would have to put another 20 years into fixing his own broke self before he would even be at a starting point of qualification to offer an opinion on long-term solutions. He represents exactly what is broken about kenpo: Incompetent practitioners making unformed modifications to material they never "got" in the first place.
> 
> ...


Much of what he says is very true, but as Dr. Dave as pointed out, he is hardly a guy to launch criticisms or make changes. This however does not detract from the correctness of much of what he has to say. Truth always works no matter the source.


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