# Wing Chun Kwoon question



## Xue Sheng (Feb 25, 2021)

Not sure anything will ever come of this but I less than 6 years I will be retiring and Mrs Xue wants to spend 6 months a year in Montreal. She likes cities and Montreal is considerably safer than most cities in the USA and she likes the Chinatown there too. When we were last there, pre-pandemic, I was walking around Chinatown and saw a sigh on the second floor of a building that said "Wing Chun" 

Later I saw something om TV, during the pandemic, about a guy with a Wing Chun school in Montreal. I believe it is the same school

Montreal Wing Tsun Kung Fu

I was wondering if any of you knew anything about this school and its teacher?

I do know we use to have a poster on MT who has an MA school in Montreal, but he is not on MT any longer and he was not Wing Chun

I don't know if I will ever actually go there, the last time I tried to return to Wing Chun my knees would not take it. But at least now I am able to do taijiquan again. Also by that time, I will be in my 60s, so this is mostly out of curiosity. 

I know there is a XIngyiquan shifu I would love to train with, but I am pretty sure I'm to old and arthritic for that, so it is likely I'm too old and arthritic for Wing Chun.

I do know we use to have a poster on MT who has an MA school in Montreal, but he is not here any longer and he was not Wing Chun

Thanks


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## yak sao (Feb 25, 2021)

Sifu Carson Lau is the real deal and this guy is one of his students so should be good. In fact, I'm a little jealous.

CL is a student of Leung Ting I believe, and his Wing Tsun is Hong Kong style not the European method that's prevalent in a lot of places....which I've got to say, having been exposed to both, I prefer the HK flavor.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 25, 2021)

yak sao said:


> Sifu Carson Lau is the real deal and this guy is one of his students so should be good. In fact, I'm a little jealous.
> 
> CL is a student of Leung Ting I believe, and his Wing Tsun is Hong Kong style not the European method that's prevalent in a lot of places....which I've got to say, having been exposed to both, I prefer the HK flavor.



What's the difference between European method and Hong Kong style?


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## yak sao (Feb 26, 2021)

Xue Sheng said:


> What's the difference between European method and Hong Kong style?



In many ways the European version is better because it's very organized and they have a very systemized way of teaching it.
But from what I seen they didn't always have a complete picture of what they were trying to accomplish so they ended up teaching a lot of variations on various things which muddied the waters.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 26, 2021)

yak sao said:


> In many ways the European version is better because it's very organized and they have a very systemized way of teaching it.
> But from what I seen they didn't always have a complete picture of what they were trying to accomplish so they ended up teaching a lot of variations on various things which muddied the waters.



Thank you, it seems to be our way of doing things in the west, organize, standardize, and "make it better " Seen the same in Taijiquan, Western vs Eastern.


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## geezer (Feb 27, 2021)

yak sao said:


> In many ways the European version is better because it's very organized and they have a very systemized way of teaching it.
> But from what I seen they didn't always have a complete picture of what they were trying to accomplish so they ended up teaching a lot of variations on various things which muddied the waters.



1st regarding Carson Lau: I agree that Carson Lau has a top reputation and was Leung Ting's top instructor in Hong Kong for a long time before going to Canada. He later broke away and formed his own organization. My old (Leung Ting org.) si-dai in San Antonio, Gilbert Leal after being independent for many years joined up with Carson for a number of years before going independent again. He always had high praise for Carson both as a Practitioner and instructor. Last time we talked a year or two back I asked him about why he preferred to be on his own again. Well, he still has great respect for Carson, but like me he has become a very independent thinker and likes running his program his own way. I totally get that.

2nd re the Hong Kong vs European WT curriculum (since it is the same LT system but with different instructional programs): I was brought up learning the Hong Kong style here in the US from Leung Ting, but I have also learned from some dai-hing (brothers) who have trained the EWTO method. My conclusion is that the EWTO or European curriculum is very organized, detailed and complete. It is also well put together for running commercial schools in a large organization. Some parts of it have been very helpful to me. I guess I feel that I have learned things from both approaches.

I use elements of both WT curriculums in my own little program, but I am by temperament independent, intuitive and sometimes contrarian. My loss I guess. If I were to offer a single critique of the hyper detailed _European_ approach it would be that they have such an extensive and detailed curriculum that it can keep you busy_ forever _learning drills and excercises (all the lat-sau units, chi-sau sections, forms, dummy form, tripodal dummy work, weapons, weapon application drills, etc. etc. that you could spend a lifetime just trying to memorize these ._...externals _of Wing Tsun and never really understand the essence of the art. On the other hand, many of the best practitioners produced have come from the European branches. Many who were fare better than I ever was or will be so keep that in mind.

I'm just trying to point out that understanding Wing Chun (WT/VT/WC) is not a purely _quantitative _thing ...any more than you can evaluate a great painting by measuring how many yards of canvas it covers.

One last point _as an instructor:_  Although I have found that the European (EWTO) method is extremely detailed and specific, some techniques, sections of form, and so on seem so thoroughly _dissected_ ....that like a dissected organism, they lose their life. If you break something down too much, first of all, you overwhelm the student with detail. Secondly, by emphasizing every detail of movement and position _separately_, the movement loses it's flow and _synergy. 
_
Yes, WT movements do have a lot of fine points. We often say, _Dim dim ching _or "each point clear". But if you hesitate and perform each point separately in a robotic, disconnected way you lose the integration and essential dynamics of the movement. There is no flow, chi, fajin or whatever. There is only a stiff and rather silly dance.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 27, 2021)

geezer said:


> 1st regarding Carson Lau: I agree that Carson Lau has a top reputation and was Leung Ting's top instructor in Hong Kong for a long time before going to Canada. He later broke away and formed his own organization. My old (Leung Ting org.) si-dai in San Antonio, Gilbert Leal after being independent for many years joined up with Carson for a number of years before going independent again. He always had high praise for Carson both as a Practitioner and instructor. Last time we talked a year or two back I asked him about why he preferred to be on his own again. Well, he still has great respect for Carson, but like me he has become a very independent thinker and likes running his program his own way. I totally get that.
> 
> 2nd re the Hong Kong vs European WT curriculum (since it is the same LT system but with different instructional programs): I was brought up learning the Hong Kong style here in the US from Leung Ting, but I have also learned from some dai-hing (brothers) who have trained the EWTO method. My conclusion is that the EWTO or European curriculum is very organized, detailed and complete. It is also well put together for running commercial schools in a large organization. Some parts of it have been very helpful to me. I guess I feel that I have learned things from both approaches.
> 
> ...



Thank you,

Something you said here, made me think of something my taijiquan shifu (who learned in Hong Kong) told me when I was teaching some of the new students. I was getting into a lot of detail.

He took me aside after class and pretty much said this same thing to me...with different words, but the same idea



geezer said:


> If you break something down too much, first of all, you overwhelm the student with detail. Secondly, by emphasizing every detail of movement and position separately, the movement loses it's flow and synergy.



Thank you again


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## yak sao (Feb 27, 2021)

geezer said:


> 1st regarding Carson Lau: I agree that Carson Lau has a top reputation and was Leung Ting's top instructor in Hong Kong for a long time before going to Canada. He later broke away and formed his own organization. My old (Leung Ting org.) si-dai in San Antonio, Gilbert Leal after being independent for many years joined up with Carson for a number of years before going independent again. He always had high praise for Carson both as a Practitioner and instructor. Last time we talked a year or two back I asked him about why he preferred to be on his own again. Well, he still has great respect for Carson, but like me he has become a very independent thinker and likes running his program his own way. I totally get that.
> 
> 2nd re the Hong Kong vs European WT curriculum (since it is the same LT system but with different instructional programs): I was brought up learning the Hong Kong style here in the US from Leung Ting, but I have also learned from some dai-hing (brothers) who have trained the EWTO method. My conclusion is that the EWTO or European curriculum is very organized, detailed and complete. It is also well put together for running commercial schools in a large organization. Some parts of it have been very helpful to me. I guess I feel that I have learned things from both approaches.
> 
> ...



Exactly!
As I've said before using the chi sau sections as an example, they (the Europeans) spend so much time on the sections that they become the end product rather than the means to the end.


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## geezer (Feb 27, 2021)

yak sao said:


> Exactly!
> As I've said before using the chi sau sections as an example, they (the Europeans) spend so much time on the sections that they become the end product rather than the means to the end.


And ironically, the man who choreographed many of the later sections, GM Kernspecht, has abandoned all that himself. They were just steps on the road to mastery.

The truth of the matter is that unless you have a good sized group of advanced practitioners to work with, you can never remember all the intricacies of the EWTO WT curriculum. That used to bother me. Until I finally fully accepted that an encyclopedic command of curriculum is not the same as mastery of a system. Now I've taken to simplifying the whole curriculum and choreographing my own sets and variations. And you know what? I'm learning more because of it.

Too bad it took me so long to come to this conclusion. BTW, I give a lot of credit to working with Rene's _Escrima_ for opening my eyes on this.


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## yak sao (Feb 27, 2021)

geezer said:


> And ironically, the man who choreographed many of the later sections, GM Kernspecht, has abandoned all that himself. They were just steps on the road to mastery.
> 
> The truth of the matter is that unless you have a good sized group of advanced practitioners to work with, you can never remember all the intricacies of the EWTO WT curriculum. That used to bother me. Until I finally fully accepted that an encyclopedic command of curriculum is not the same as mastery of a system. Now I've taken to simplifying the whole curriculum and choreographing my own sets and variations. And you know what? I'm learning more because of it.
> 
> Too bad it took me so long to come to this conclusion. BTW, I give a lot of credit to working with Rene's _Escrima_ for opening my eyes on this.




I hear you....I came to WT from a kung fu system that was very forms focused and I saw WT as a way of cutting through the clutter.

After many years I realized that I had simply traded one form of clutter for another...so like you I am on a quest to simplify.


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## geezer (Feb 27, 2021)

yak sao said:


> I hear you....I came to WT from a kung fu system that was very forms focused and I saw WT as a way of cutting through the clutter.
> 
> After many years I realized that I had simply traded one form of clutter for another...so like you I am on a quest to simplify.



_Exactly._ My first exposure to Kung fu was through a mostly bogus system that was very forms intensive. Compared to that, Wing Chun was a breath of fresh air. Then it turned in to the same thing. Clutter.

One thing that was interesting about what Rene did with his Escrima is that he went the other way. When I first trained with him, he had built up a whole system: PMAS Escrima. Then over many years he whittled away more and more until for the last couple decades, he has taught pure concepts, applicable to whatever techniques or style you do. Not the best commercial idea but it helped me clear away some of the clutter. What I teach, "P.C.E.", has more curriculum, forms, drills, etc. but we keep it under control, and I make it clear that it's the core concepts that matter.


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## yak sao (Feb 27, 2021)

geezer said:


> _Exactly._ My first exposure to Kung fu was through a mostly bogus system that was very forms intensive. Compared to that, Wing Chun was a breath of fresh air. Then it turned in to the same thing. Clutter.
> 
> One thing that was interesting about what Rene did with his Escrima is that he went the other way. When I first trained with him, he had built up a whole system: PMAS Escrima. Then over many years he whittled away more and more until for the last couple decades, he has taught pure concepts, applicable to whatever techniques or style you do. Not the best commercial idea but it helped me clear away some of the clutter. What I teach, "P.C.E.", has more curriculum, forms, drills, etc. but we keep it under control, and I make it clear that it's the core concepts that matter.



I really wish I had learned more from him.

Didn't he post some stuff on YouTube a while back talking about this very thing? I had forgotten about those I need to look them up.


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## geezer (Feb 27, 2021)

Yeah, in the last year or so he put a lot of stuff out on a new Youtube channel. Go to youtube and search _Rene Latosa. 

Warning: _(Not for you, Yak, but for others.) It may be boring. There's no flash, fancy techniques, disarms, complex hubud drills, forms or cool carrenzas. It's more like watching a great old boxing coach talk about what's really important. ....In fact, that's _exactly _what it is. Except it's about Filipino dirty boxing and fighting.


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## yak sao (Feb 27, 2021)

geezer said:


> Yeah, in the last year or so he put a lot of stuff out on a new Youtube channel. Go to youtube and search _Rene Latosa.
> 
> Warning: _(Not for you, Yak, but for others.) It may be boring. There's no flash, fancy techniques, disarms, complex hubud drills, forms or cool carrenzas. It's more like watching a great old boxing coach talk about what's really important. ....In fact, that's _exactly _what it is. Except it's about Filipino dirty boxing and fighting.



Sounds terrific actually....thanks


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