# Bujikan Dojo questions.



## kip42 (Aug 4, 2010)

Do students of Bujikan learn all nine schools or is it a single school that one learns and gets a black belt in? What level of black belt do you need in order to be an official instructor at your own dojo? 

How long does it take on average to earn a black belt in this art? Is the Bujikan a longer process than other arts such as Tae Kwon do?

I am especially interested in Koto Ryu but was not sure if I would specialize in this or learn all nine schools. 

Where can I get reliable info on the nine schools?

Does the Bujikan encompass the principal of aliveness? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TL05Es8LVAQ&feature=related


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## ScholarsInk (Aug 4, 2010)

kip42 said:


> Do students of Bujikan learn all nine schools or is it a single school that one learns and gets a black belt in? What level of black belt do you need in order to be an official instructor at your own dojo?
> 
> How long does it take on average to earn a black belt in this art? Is the Bujikan a longer process than other arts such as Tae Kwon do?
> 
> ...


First things first, while there are a huge amount of crappy people in the Bujinkan, it is still a bit unkind to compare it with TKD (despite both arts' production of many incompetent yudansha). A Bujinkan 'black belt' will take you as long as you want it to. There are people like Richard Van Donk who will give you one for a quick payment of 400 bucks as well as others who will give you one for paying for them to visit your dojo. This is a big part of why we are seen as something of a joke among much of the wider martial arts community.

That being said, ignore 'the nine schools' - while Hatsumi-sensei is Soke of them, your training and ranking, should you study in the Bujinkan, will be in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu - a gendai budo that has in a sense the 'essence' of Sensei's ryuha. Thus ranking will be along the lines of the judo kyu/dan system.

If you would like to study the individual schools, you might be better served by the Jinenkan, Genbukan or Myofu-an. They allow you to study the individual ryuha (though the Genbukan has a foundational curriculum that must be studied first to I think sandan).

I would suggest you read an FAQ, as most of your questions have been asked a million times.


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## jks9199 (Aug 4, 2010)

Y'know... I don't often do this but how about starting with the stuff that we've locked to the top of the ninjutsu forums, like Newbies posting on Ninjutsu, Please Read ?  You may well find many of your answers there...


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## kip42 (Aug 4, 2010)

I was thinking the Bujikan was more strict and pure as to the strictness of the students. I thought this b.c you have to be a member of the Bujikan to teach and be a student.


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## ScholarsInk (Aug 4, 2010)

kip42 said:


> I was thinking the Bujikan was more strict and pure as to the strictness of the students. I thought this b.c you have to be a member of the Bujikan to teach and be a student.


That membership requirement is the case for all of the organisations.

As for your first sentence, I didn't understand it. I have no idea what "strict and pure as to the strictness" is supposed to mean.


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## Bruno@MT (Aug 5, 2010)

kip42 said:


> I was thinking the Bujikan was more strict and pure as to the strictness of the students. I thought this b.c you have to be a member of the Bujikan to teach and be a student.



Excuse me while I ROFLMAO....

.
.
.

The Bujinkan is many things, and there are many outstanding martial artists in the Bujinkan, some of which are also members on this forum. But strict, it is anything but.

You have to be a Bujinkan member in order to be able to learn and teach in the Bujinkan... right. But this applies to any organization. Bujinkan is anything but strict. Anyone can become a member, do whatever he wants, and he or she will not be kicked out no matter what he does. In fact, you can follow a video course and get up to 4th dan.

If you want strict and pure, Genbukan is what you are looking for. That does not mean it is better, it just means that Genbukan is much stricter in everything.

Take note that I don't say it is better. Personally I like the Genbukan better because that is the kind of person I am and because I like that strict structure. Others may prefer Bujinkan or Jinenkan. I believe that for the purposes of learning ninpo, all 3 can get you to the same place via a different road.


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## Chris Parker (Aug 5, 2010)

Okay, this one.



kip42 said:


> Do students of Bujikan learn all nine schools or is it a single school that one learns and gets a black belt in? What level of black belt do you need in order to be an official instructor at your own dojo?
> 
> The Bujinkan does not teach the individual Ryu, really. It teaches Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, a comprehensive approach to the essence of combative arts (Budo) according to Hatsumi Sensei, taking it's methods from a variety of classical sources (the aforementioned Nine Schools...). You are ranked in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu.
> 
> ...


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## asuki (Aug 8, 2010)

i think it depends on your dojo. where i train my instructor is allowing us to choose a school that we like and we can somewhat focus on. this does not mean we will not learn things from the other schools. i like this idea.


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## Hudson69 (Aug 8, 2010)

ScholarsInk said:


> First things first, while there are a huge amount of crappy people in the Bujinkan, it is still a bit unkind to compare it with TKD (despite both arts' production of many incompetent yudansha). A Bujinkan 'black belt' will take you as long as you want it to. There are people like Richard Van Donk who will give you one for a quick payment of 400 bucks as well as others who will give you one for paying for them to visit your dojo. This is a big part of why we are seen as something of a joke among much of the wider martial arts community.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## kip42 (Aug 8, 2010)

I am essentially looking for an art that will teach me how to be a warrior and survive whatever I am up against. I would enjoy learning the battle tested version that evolved through hundreds of years of combat. I also would like if the movement are still as effective today as they where a long time ago. I want a straight forward fight stopping art that will teach me as much of what the ancient ninja knew as possible. I would really like to well round it with the stealth and agility abilities.

I didnt realize there was other forms of what the Ninja took other than the Bujikan.


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## kip42 (Aug 8, 2010)

I have a friend who is a black belt in Koto Rye. The movements seem natural and straight forward. 

So essentially the Bujikan is a combination of nine arts? I would learn all nine as I move through and not really focuss on one? Would this be like going to high school and learning math, english, science, history in the Bujikan while other single traditional arts would be like going to graduate school and foccusing on one major with no minor classes?

I hope I can find the most realistic approach to ninjitsu as in finishing the fight and escaping alive.


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## Cryozombie (Aug 8, 2010)

kip42 said:


> I want a straight forward fight stopping art that will teach me as much of what the ancient ninja knew as possible.



Good luck with that one... perhaps you want to try Budo Ryu instead.  

%-}

Yes Yes, I know I'm a bad person.


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## jks9199 (Aug 8, 2010)

It's been said before -- but I'm going to reiterate it.

It's not about the art; it's all about how you train.  Shooting a person with a .40 semiauto pistol will kill them.  But not everyone can make that shot under combat conditions if they've only trained on a firing line shooting paper targets.

Tai chi is often considered one of the least "martial" martial arts.  But there are a relative handful of people out there who train it with an emphasis on understanding it's martial functions, rather than simply some sort of ultra low impact aerobics with new age ideas.  They'll put you on your *** faster and harder than you'd believe if you haven't seen it...  In the same way, the Bujinkan and the nine schools that form its basis can be incredibly effective or little more than a weird take at Japanese square dancing.  I can say the same about any other art you care to mention, incidentally.  Krav Maga is a bluntly effective, in-your-face style that's as subtle as a baseball bat to the face... but if you don't train it with that sort of attitude, you might as well be doing Taebo.

My advice to you is simple:  Look at what's available in your area, that fits your schedule and that you can afford.  Visit each school.  Look at the students, and look at the training.  When you find a group that you want to both belong to and look like as you fight... train there.


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## Bruno@MT (Aug 9, 2010)

jks9199 said:


> It's not about the art; it's all about how you train.  Shooting a person with a .40 semiauto pistol will kill them.  But not everyone can make that shot under combat conditions if they've only trained on a firing line shooting paper targets.



And regardless of how you train, there are enough people who will simply never be able pull the trigger if someone is standing in front of their gun, no matter what, no matter how good a shot they are.



kip42 said:


> I have a friend who is a black belt in Koto Rye. The movements seem natural and straight forward.



Either you misunderstood or your friend was not being entirely truthful.
The nine schools (or any of the other traditional Japanese schools) don't work with a belt system. And within the Bujinkan, no licensing of individual systems is granted to westerners IIRC. You learn parts of the nine schools but you can't grade in them.



kip42 said:


> So essentially the Bujikan is a combination of nine arts? I would learn all nine as I move through and not really focuss on one? Would this be like going to high school and learning math, english, science, history in the Bujikan while other single traditional arts would be like going to graduate school and foccusing on one major with no minor classes?
> 
> I hope I can find the most realistic approach to ninjitsu as in finishing the fight and escaping alive.



Essentially, yes.
You enroll in Genbukan, Bujinkan or Jinenkan if you want to learn things that are part of authentic ninjutsu systems. But in all 3 systems you will have to realize that the amount of 'ninja' content is very low compared to the other things you will learn. Before you get to learn anything advanced that is ninjutsu specific, you will have spent a looooong time training.

Your last sentence is also incorrect. The whole idea in ninjutsu is only to escape alive. Finishing the fight is not the main goal. And according to Hatsumi sensei, fighting was the least useful skill of the ninja. If you had to fight, you had already screwed up.


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## Chris Parker (Aug 9, 2010)

Hi again.



kip42 said:


> I am essentially looking for an art that will teach me how to be a warrior and survive whatever I am up against.
> 
> Without knowing your age, location. etc, I can't really say what you will be up against, but.....
> 
> ...


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## Bruno@MT (Aug 9, 2010)

> So essentially the Bujikan is a combination of nine arts? I would learn all nine as I move through and not really focuss on one? Would this be like going to high school and learning math, english, science, history in the Bujikan while other single traditional arts would be like going to graduate school and foccusing on one major with no minor classes?
> 
> No (sorry, Bruno!), that is not correct. The Bujinkan's teachings are refered to as Budo Taijutsu, which is it's own seperate and distinct martial art, created from the teachings of various traditional Ryu-ha. But you do not learn all nine as you move through, in fact it is highly doubtful that you would learn three of them at all, in any fashion (Gyokushin, Kumogakure, Gikan). At certain times, ann instructor may choose to teach lessons by using the kata of a particular Ryu, but that is very different from learning the Ryu itself, especially as the kata are used to explore Budo Taijutsu, not the Ryu they come from. This is a major reason that it is highly doubtful that your friend really has a black belt in Koto Ryu. It doesn't exist.



IIRC Bujinkan is a system composed of elements / content / principles of the nine schools, right? So you'll get a general education of things contained in those nine (with the caveats you already mentioned) schools without necessarily being taught the entire ryuha or a specific subsection?

This was how I meant my post. Genbukan follows a similar approach, in that until black belt, you get taught the standard Genbukan ninpo curriculum which is made up from the techniques / principles from various ruyha without necessarily being identified as such or being taught within that context.

I agree that the comparison with high school vs graduate school is not entirely correct in that the ryuha are not taught separately, but is is correct in the way that at the end of high school, you'll have learned various bits and pieces from different ryuha without having graduated or done in depth study of in any specific one.

At least that was my understanding.


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## Chris Parker (Aug 9, 2010)

Yeah, I was focusing more on the "actually learn all nine Ryu" aspect, in regards to learning them seperately similar to a school curriculum (multiple subject learned seperately), as that really isn't how it is. And, although Gyokushin, Kumogakure and Gikan get mentioned every now and then, its not entirely certain how much of each are seen in the general Bujinkan teachings. The only stuff I've seen from Hatsumi Sensei is at the end of the Koppojutsu DVD (essentially the old Koto Ryu VHS with some new footage and the new end feauring aspects of these schools) and occasional mention. I believe there is also a tape or DVD of the Kihon Happo with a Gyokushin Ryu "feel" from after a Tai Kai in Spain a decade and a half or so ago, but that's about it.

Realistically, I think it's safer to say the Bujinkan, technically speaking at least, is based primarily on the Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu, Takagi Yoshin Ryu, Shinden Fudo Ryu, Kukishinden Ryu, Togakure Ryu, and Ten Chi Jin Ryaku no Maki, although Hatsumi Sensei has been known to bring out some of his other studies from time to time, such as Bokuden Ryu or Asayama Ichiden Ryu, but that is a rarity from what I understand.

I do agree that you'll have bits of the various Ryu techniques, but as I said learning the kata is really not the same as studying the Ryu itself. And the way I read Kip42's post was that he would be learning the individual Ryu-ha separately  separate subjects (hence the high school simile). And in that regard, he was incorrect.


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## Tez3 (Aug 9, 2010)

ScholarsInk said:


> That membership requirement is the case for all of the organisations.
> 
> As for your first sentence, I didn't understand it. I have no idea what *"strict and pure as to the strictness"* is supposed to mean.


 
Perhaps they are into spanking each other? if you get the cool 'ninja' uniform too as seen in films and the television I want in! sounds suitably decandent and as likely as the OPs version of ''ninjitsu'' :ultracool


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## ScholarsInk (Aug 9, 2010)

Hudson69 said:


> ScholarsInk said:
> 
> 
> > First things first, while there are a huge amount of crappy people in the Bujinkan, it is still a bit unkind to compare it with TKD (despite both arts' production of many incompetent yudansha). A Bujinkan 'black belt' will take you as long as you want it to. There are people like Richard Van Donk who will give you one for a quick payment of 400 bucks as well as others who will give you one for paying for them to visit your dojo. This is a big part of why we are seen as something of a joke among much of the wider martial arts community.
> ...



It is indeed a slam on TKD. Firstly, TKD is very dishonest - it's simply karate with Korean terminology that claims to be an ancient Korean MA. In that sense, Kyokushin is the real TKD in that it was founded by a Korean but he never claimed it was anything but karate.

 It also is probably the most McDojoised MA in the world. Most karate  schools these days are also McDojos, but usually in a given city you'll  be able to find at least one legitimate karate school. In contrast, while I'm sure they exist, I have yet to find a non-McDojo TKD school (in any place I've lived, and I've moved quite a lot).

I remember that by fifth grade, all my friends in TKD and krotty were already "black belts" - did this translate to any actual skill? No. Their parents just paid exorbitant fees for after-school McBudo.

Furthermore, TKD sparring consists of tapping the other guy with your leg while your arms are at your side - it's nothing like MMA, judo, Kyokushin, BJJ, Enshin, Muay Thai et cetera which are more-or-less full contact and based on knockdown/submission rather than points.

I'm sure a good TKD guy will have good kicks - but put him in the ring with a Kyokushin guy and, nine times out of ten, he's going down.

Sport-oriented isn't necessarily a problem in and of itself. Judo was an Olympic sport long before TKD was, but it's still quite intense. Part of this is probably the fact that while you can kick lightly, it's pretty hard to throw lightly.

Does this change the fact that many of us in the Bujinkan couldn't fight our way out of a retirement home (why someone would be doing this I don't know; it is purely hypothetical)? No, but a TKD guy probably wouldn't fare much better. If you want to use a counterexample art to show benefits of harder training, TKD is not it.


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## Hudson69 (Aug 9, 2010)

ScholarsInk said:


> It is indeed a slam on TKD. Firstly, TKD is very dishonest - it's simply karate with Korean terminology that claims to be an ancient Korean MA. In that sense, Kyokushin is the real TKD in that it was founded by a Korean but he never claimed it was anything but karate.
> 
> It also is probably the most McDojoised MA in the world. Most karate schools these days are also McDojos, but usually in a given city you'll be able to find at least one legitimate karate school. In contrast, while I'm sure they exist, I have yet to find a non-McDojo TKD school (in any place I've lived, and I've moved quite a lot).
> 
> ...


 
Bitter much?  I understand that you might have travelled a lot but try Korea.  I am not a TKD stylist, my background is primarily American Kenpo and Budo Taijutsu but I have thrown down with some TKD guys in my time and they can fight with the best of them so I am unsure as to where the animosity comes from.  

As far as the "Can't fight out of a retirement home." remark well then, again, you need to find another school someone who trained in Bujinkan Ninjutsu prior to around '90 or so because my very first instructor was rough and tumble and it was a lot of hands on randori not like the current (in the two schools I have been in only) "No touchy, no touchy!" mentallity.

Dont get me wrong I have seen a lot of TKD dojangs that are sport only so you have a couple of options: dont attend, take it to learn excellent kicking techniques not to become black belt/promoter of the school, or find another school that is taught by a ROK Marine, ROK Army or someone else that has skills that will work in the real world.  Just like with Budo Taijutsu or someone no longer teaching Budo Taijutsu but the old school ninjutsu.

My .02 only.


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## ScholarsInk (Aug 9, 2010)

I'm a Bujinkan member, but I fully admit that there are many of us that are really, really bad and have overinflated ego along with it that makes them think they're "teh r34lz". The people I train with are really good and I'm lucky to have access.

As for TKD, I pointed out that I'm sure there are good places, but all the ones I've visited have been McDojangs. I would not recommend the art to someone because chances are he/she would end up at such a one.


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## Cryozombie (Aug 10, 2010)

ScholarsInk said:


> I'm a Bujinkan member, but I fully admit that there are many of us that are really, really bad and have overinflated ego along with it that makes them think they're "teh r34lz". The people I train with are really good and I'm lucky to have access.



I'm gonna agree with this.  I've been to a number of schools and seen a lot of stuff good and bad... There are a lot of people out there who think the perfection of Kata is the end all be all of the Bujinkan, and a lot of people critiquing others who claim people are all wrong because "your arm is at 45 and 2/3 degrees, not 45!"  or "Your rear foot was 2 degrees off from center" or "Your hand is 3 inches too low on your arm for PROPER Ichimonji" but have no concept of things along the line of "If you occupy that space for that long if that punch is actually fake, the second swing is gonna connect because you are right in line with it" or "a modern jab is a perfect setup for that double-pump, so you have to have it covered regardless of whether it is a jab, a fake, or a swing" 

Maybe I'm wrong and that extra 1 degree on that 45 is the magic shield I have been missing, but *I* think understanding the concepts of the kata and the dynamic of the fight is probably more important than executing Hoteki with your hand JUST SO.  

Maybe not so much if one intends to teach, then perhaps both are of equal importance.  *shrug*

I dunno.  Ignore me.


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