# Knife sparring analysis - comments?



## Mormegil (Apr 12, 2003)

I don't do as much knife sparring as I'd like, as I don't do much FMA anymore (less time and money right now), so I may be way off base.  But here goes:

I made an interesting observation (or at least in my case).  While knife sparring somebody with no real training, I noticed something.  When I have a knife, I find it less likely that I will disarm a knife wielding attacker, compared to when I am unarmed.

My theory goes - If an attacker has a knife, and you don't - they will likely go for main body targets, requiring commited attacks, which are easier to grab and control.  

On the other hand, if you have a knife, they will be less likely to attack main body parts, and only go for "defanging the snake" (in FMA terms), or attacking the attacking limb to effectively disarm me.  This means, less commited attacks, more feints, and hence harder to get a hold of or control of the attacking limb.

In addition to these, if I have a knife, I feel "safer" staying outside, and "whittling" away at my attacker, hit their hand, forearm, etc.  But if I am unarmed, I feel safer trying to control the weapon / weapon hand, and I am more likely to grab.


Does this make sense?  Anybody agree, disagree or can add anything?


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## pesilat (Apr 12, 2003)

Well ... disarms are, as the old saw goes, "incidental if not accidental."

But that's kind of a different topic all together.

Personally, the reason I don't tend to go for disarms if I've got a blade is simply that it's generally quicker to control his weapon hand while I attack with my blade.

When I don't have a blade, I don't go for disarms, but they do sometimes happen. What I go for is controlling the weapon hand while doing as much damage as I can. If I can "return" his weapon to him, great. If I get a disarm, great.

But my goal, whether I've got a blade or not, is to get control of his weapon hand while using my weapons (natural or external) to the best of my ability.

If I've got a longer weapon, then I'll try to use the advantage of reach and finish the fight from outside the range of the knife. But if I don't have a longer weapon then I have to close in and shut him down ASAP. If I don't, then I'll be the one getting whittled down (or, if we've both got knives, we'll whittle each other).

Mike


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## Mormegil (Apr 13, 2003)

Granted.  I'm not always going for a disarm, but I'm definately going for control when possible.

Maybe I'm just not very good, but I find I have less of a chance to gain control of his weapon hand/arm when I'm also armed, possibly due to the reasons above.


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## moromoro (Apr 13, 2003)

well you should continue observing because if you have this attitude when it comes down to the real deal you are likely to be kill....


a few things of what you said made no real sense unles you are sparring at slow pace and or doing palakaw,

My theory goes - If an attacker has a knife, and you don't - they will likely go for main body targets, requiring commited attacks, which are easier to grab and control. 


NO NO NO THEY ARE NOT EASIER TO CONTROL, and also if you dont have a knife and he does he will find the time to PLAY with you...

"But if I am unarmed, I feel safer trying to control the weapon / weapon hand, and I am more likely to grab."

thats a load of BS you should never feel safe in trying to grab or control the weapon hand its almost as ridiculous as saying that you can use your free hand in eskrima to diss arm the stick in a real stick fight...

These are also Grandmaster Uy views look at them and think about it they are very true

"In actual combat disarming is impossible...use your checking hand on me 
and I'll grind it like meat!"

http://cebueskrima.s5.com/photo3.html


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## Mormegil (Apr 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by moromoro _
> *
> "But if I am unarmed, I feel safer trying to control the weapon / weapon hand, and I am more likely to grab."
> 
> ...



I didn't say I was safer, I said I "feel" safer.  So, this perception of "safety" tends to make ME act such a manner to try to control the arm.  I'm not saying this is the right thing to do, just what I ended up doing.  I admit, I have a lot to learn.  

Plus, this was against an unskilled opponent.  

Thanks for the input.


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## Mormegil (Apr 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by moromoro _
> *well you should continue observing because if you have this attitude when it comes down to the real deal you are likely to be kill....
> 
> *



Which is why I would likely run.


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## moromoro (Apr 13, 2003)

Which is why I would likely run.

well yeah if you feel safer running...


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## Rich Parsons (Apr 13, 2003)

Avoidance of the situation is the first line of defense.

Avoidance of the assault is a good line of defense.

Running away or Avoidance might just get you to a place to get a weapon of your own to get others around which might cause someone to think twice to attack you with a knife.



Just my thoughts 
:asian:


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## arnisador (Apr 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by moromoro _
> *"In actual combat disarming is impossible...use your checking hand on me and I'll grind it like meat!"*



There are some other interesting quotes there. Could you expand on that one and this one:

"There is no such thing as triangular footwork in Eskrima!"

(Heh, along those lines: "..leave geometry to the mathematicians!")


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## pesilat (Apr 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> *Avoidance of the situation is the first line of defense.
> 
> Avoidance of the assault is a good line of defense.
> ...



Yup. But the topic at hand is "sparring analysis" 

Mike


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## Rich Parsons (Apr 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by pesilat _
> *Yup. But the topic at hand is "sparring analysis"
> 
> Mike *




Mike, yes i agree. Yet there was a side comment or two about running away, so I was just commenting.

I apologize for detracting from the thread. I will attempt to stay on topic of the original thread post. 
:asian:


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## Mormegil (Apr 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by moromoro _
> *
> thats a load of BS you should never feel safe in trying to grab or control the weapon hand its almost as ridiculous as saying that you can use your free hand in eskrima to diss arm the stick in a real stick fight...*



Oh well.  This is already off topic.  I just thought of something in light of this comment.

I've watched a few of the Dog Brother's "Gathering of the Pack."  Moromoro, I'm not sure if you consider those "real stick fights."  They can definately still be considered sparring, but they are going really, really hard, and wear minimal equipment.  I've seen disarms in some of those matches, using the free hand (usually, grabbing onto the stick, then smashing away at the hand with the stick, so I don't know if this counts).


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## moromoro (Apr 14, 2003)

There are some other interesting quotes there. Could you expand on that one and this one:

"There is no such thing as triangular footwork in Eskrima!"

(Heh, along those lines: "..leave geometry to the mathematicians!")


these are the views of Grandmaster Uy. of Cebu sity although i cannot expand on his views as iam not his student and have yet to train with him i will however train with him next year on my annual trip back.....


i can agree on this one though 
"There is no such thing as triangular footwork in Eskrima!"

when you look at a real fight you hardly see this you only ever see retirada or straight line attacking these are the most common because these are our natural movements...

ALSO PLEASE REMEMBER THAT GRANDMASTER UY'S VIEWS ARE ALL COMBAT BASED, REAL FIGHTING......


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## moromoro (Apr 14, 2003)

This is a very controlversial issue.

I've watched a few of the Dog Brother's "Gathering of the Pack." Moromoro, I'm not sure if you consider those "real stick fights." They can definately still be considered sparring, but they are going really, really hard, and wear minimal equipment. I've seen disarms in some of those matches, using the free hand (usually, grabbing onto the stick, then smashing away at the hand with the stick, so I don't know if this counts).


WELL IF YOU LOOK AT DB THEY USED PROTECTION ON THE HANDS AND HEAD..................THE 2 MOST COMMON TARGETS..


But yes there is a documented account of a juego todo in the 50's
between my teachers sparring partner Artemio Paez and Delphin Lopez... The fight dindn't really have a winner but Lopez was able to grab GM Paez stick automatically GM Paez (GARROTE Y DAGA) let go of the stick and struck Lopez in the jaw sending him back and then thats when the fight was stopped...

NOW IT IS POSSIBLE TO USE THE FREE HAND, BUT NOT IN THE WAY THAT MOST ARTS TRAIN..... Tapi Tapi will almost never work in particularly if the opponent has a kamagong stick and is striking with speed and power, even catching the stick will cause a break to your hand....
Translate this to bladed fighting and i think thats when your free hand will be sliced like meat................


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## Cthulhu (Apr 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by moromoro _
> *
> WELL IF YOU LOOK AT DB THEY USED PROTECTION ON THE HANDS AND HEAD..................THE 2 MOST COMMON TARGETS..*



True, but the Dog Brothers who have been around for awhile use minimal protection, often limited to batting gloves (*very* light leather) and fencing helmets.  They may also wear cloth elbow padding, but it's not to soften elbow strikes, but to keep from turning their elbows to grated cheese on the fencing helmets.

Cthulhu


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## moromoro (Apr 15, 2003)

also i believe that the DB also use only light sticks for their matches....


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## Cthulhu (Apr 15, 2003)

Light sticks still hurt and can injure with only light leather gloves and full contact.

Cthulhu


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## Felix (Apr 16, 2003)

I've seen several Gatherings of the Pack. The "light" sticks used in these events have broken bones and left bleeding lumps on heads covered by fencing masks. I'm not willing to face such "harmless" sticks.   

I've also seen hardwood nunchuks and other non-rattan weapons there. Fighters can use whatever blunt weapons they both agree on. Most tend to use rattan sticks that I'd consider medium-weight. There are exceptions though.   

The light gloves are worn to protect fighters' hands when they punch. Few fighters wear gloves that offer appreciable protection against a solid strike with a stick.  

Felix


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## Cthulhu (Apr 16, 2003)

And I can verify that getting hit full power with a light rattan stick while wearing a hockey glove still hurts!

Cthulhu


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## Dave Fulton (Apr 17, 2003)

A few observations:

1.) Mormegil's original question on disarms during knife sparring. 

Having a stick or knife in your hand can hinder a disarm or augment it, but it certainly changes it.  Consider the role of each hand in the disarm and how having a knife (or stick) in that hand affects the dynamics of your disarms.  Start with the dominant hand because people typically base their disarms on their dominant hand, which coincidentally is the same hand that they hold their knife (or stick) with.  I think you'll find the answer to your question. 

2.) The dynamics of going against the knife will change based upon several variables.  

Is the knife real?  If not, the knife wielder often becomes too conservative because they know the knife is fake and that in reality, they do not have much of an advantage, if any.  At the same time the defender, also knowing that the knife is fake, often becomes too reckless and tries things that they would never do if that edge was  sharp.  The key here is mindset ... both people have to work hard to treat the training blade as though it were real

If the knife (& fight) is real, then what is the intent/mindset of the attacker?  If they're intent upon killing you and you are unarmed, they will probably come straight in.  It doesn't make any sense to do anything else.  If they are more interested in carving you up and torturing you (perhaps before they kill you), then they will probably stay outside for a while and "play".    A real knife is not easy to control.  If you grab my knife arm, I can twist and with very little effort I can encourage you to let me go.  Try it (with a training knife) and see.  

3.) Disarming in real time.

I have not been in a real stick or knife fight, but I have done quite a bit of full-contact sparring (similar to Dog Brother's format) and I do get disarms (more so against the stick than knife).  Yes, the gear does protect you, but to what degree depends upon the gear that you use.  With our gear, I may get a disarm, but I will know whether or not I would have gotten it without the gear.  The key again is mindset.  I only consider my technique, including disarms, a success if I get them cleanly ... i.e. without getting hit in the process and if I can not get something cleanly in sparring, then I would never attempt it in a real fight.  I also tend to stick to very basic disarms that execute quickly and do not involve grabbing their weapon.  

The DB's use rattan, which would be lighter than say Kamagong or Bahi, but the rattan that they use can and does do damage.  I have sparred with "Top Dog" (though not at a gathering) and he uses some hefty rattan that one could not dismiss as being "light".  The rattan that we use runs towards the hefty side as well.

4.)  Triangular Footwork.

If trained correctly and with dedication, it will come out in fighting and if you understand how to use it, then it can be quite effective.  Same thing for "side-stepping".  If you train them and understand them, both are useful for controlling range, position, etc and for generating power in your techniques.  

Respectfully,

Dave Fulton


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## Lunumbra (Apr 18, 2003)

If you are going to go for a disarm, don't try it as your first technique. Block, duck, strike, break him down a little, distract him a little, cause some pain, break his form and rhythm. Then disarm. Otherwise he is just going to lock up his hand and either reverse it, or slug you with the other hand.

(Same goes for locks, BTW)


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