# Enlightenment and Awareness confusion?



## Corporal Hicks (Aug 8, 2005)

Hi,
Recently as some of you may now I have been studying Buddhism (Zen). Now I was under the impression that enlightenment is that same goal as expressed in the Power of Now, the feeling of intense awareness of the world around you? Or am I incorrect?
Is Zen Buddhism trying to achieve this state of intense awareness that some of us have experienced as explained in the power of now, or are the two completely different?
I  realise that Buddhism is also about eradicating suffering etc etc but is the ultimate goal of enlightenment to become intensely aware as well as to end all suffering?
As I feel that I may infact not be looking for my goal? As my goal is to replicate this feelings of intense awareness and consciousness? Will that be achieved eventually through Buddhism practice?
Regards


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## Matt Stone (Aug 9, 2005)

Yes.   

No.  

Maybe.   :idunno: 

Keep breathing...  :fart:

Enjoy.   :boing1:

The True Way cannot be named or explained.  It can only be grasped, experienced, and understood.  When you get there, you'll know.  If you think you've arrived, you have more work to do...

Good luck.

 :asian:


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## Corporal Hicks (Aug 9, 2005)

But? eugh! Is the point of meditation to become intensely aware of the world around you or that goal of enlightenment something different?


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## Matt Stone (Aug 9, 2005)

The point of meditation is meditation.  The point of becoming aware of your surroundings is becoming aware of your surroundings...

Consider this: "Enlightenment isn't what you think."  Roll that around in your head a bit.  It'll help and it'll confound.  But that's the point of helping and confounding...

 :asian:


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## Corporal Hicks (Aug 9, 2005)

Matt Stone said:
			
		

> The point of meditation is meditation. The point of becoming aware of your surroundings is becoming aware of your surroundings...
> 
> Consider this: "Enlightenment isn't what you think." Roll that around in your head a bit. It'll help and it'll confound. But that's the point of helping and confounding...
> 
> :asian:


Does meditation aid in becoming more aware of your surroundings?


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## Matt Stone (Aug 9, 2005)

The short answer is that "it helps."

Meditation isn't the key to becoming "more aware."  Meditate for the sake of meditation.  The entertaining side effects should not be the goal, nor should they distract you from the task at hand.

Becoming more aware of your surroundings helps you become more aware of your surroundings...


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## Eldritch Knight (Aug 9, 2005)

Zen's weird that way. Take the koans, for instance. The idea isn't to come up with an answer to them, but to better understand the question and draw a better understanding of the universe from that. Likewise, meditation isn't done for the express purpose of becoming enlightened or to acheive some purpose, but simply to become better at meditation.


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## Flatlander (Aug 9, 2005)

Meditation is practice being in your environment without the clutter of yourself getting in the way.  Quiet your mind and feel and experience.  This will eventually help you become more aware of your surroundings.  



> "Enlightenment isn't what you think."


 I like that.


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## MA-Caver (Aug 9, 2005)

Corporal Hicks said:
			
		

> But? eugh! Is the point of meditation to become intensely aware of the world around you or that goal of enlightenment something different?





			
				Matt Stone said:
			
		

> The point of meditation is meditation. The point of becoming aware of your surroundings is becoming aware of your surroundings...





			
				Corporal Hicks said:
			
		

> Does meditation aid in becoming more aware of your surroundings?


As I've always known it and as I've learned by reading about the zen/buddist/hindu/nepalanese masters and so forth; Meditation is about becoming aware of self. What's going on inside you and everything that you've learned about from your journey (through life) thus far. Your schooling, work, martial arts and life experiences. It's seeking deep down inside yourself and taking the time to actually think of everything that you've learned and how it has made you... you.  
Meditation does aid in becoming more aware of your surroundings but on the spiritual plane than the tangible one. Aware of the life-force in every living thing around you, trees, grass, rocks, earth, wind and so on. At the risk of sounding like Yoda, meditation helps you be aware of the "force", which in other-words is... life. It's a spiritual thing and it can be (in my experience) found only from within yourself. The enlightenment is your _understanding_ as a* result* of your meditation. It also helps understanding of your own power, energy or "force" if you will. How your body works and it's strengths and weaknesses. It's deep thoughts about what's going on. How *you* think, how *you* feel, not what you're feeling but how *you* go about feeling. What makes your body move? How your mind processes the things you've learned. How you focus on things. Your method of concentration and processing information. 
All of it is internal and focused on the self. Then taking that to the next level how the self works around your world as you know it. Which is awareness.

"Awareness" comes in two forms; the first stems from the understanding you've achieved and thus on a concious level you are seeing your world around you in a new "light" (en"lighten"ment).  The second is situational awareness which (should be) heightened by the first and you're able to see potential all around you. Potential for helping someone (with whatever), potential of danger and so forth. 

You're young and thus have tremendous opportunity to expand your mind and your self in a manner that (relatively) few people can and have achieved. 

Hope that helps a bit more... 

 :asian:


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## Corporal Hicks (Aug 9, 2005)

MACaver said:
			
		

> Meditation does aid in becoming more aware of your surroundings but on the spiritual plane than the tangible one. Aware of the life-force in every living thing around you, trees, grass, rocks, earth, wind and so on.
> 
> :asian:





			
				MACaver said:
			
		

> "Awareness" comes in two forms; the first stems from the understanding you've achieved and thus on a concious level you are seeing your world around you in a new "light" (en"lighten"ment).
> :asian:


Now that is what I was talking about, if any of you have read the power of now then you will understand what I mean. This is the point I was getting to. To meditate is to enhance the above? Or to continue to meditate is to enhance the oppotunity for the above!



			
				MACaver said:
			
		

> You're young and thus have tremendous opportunity to expand your mind and your self in a manner that (relatively) few people can and have achieved.
> 
> Hope that helps a bit more...
> 
> :asian:


Thats one opportunity I dont want to miss out on, but some of this is so confusing, I dont mean on this thread but over all, reading the books and taking snipets of the teachings.........
The thing that worries me is going to university and not at least in some aspect being able to be totally 'there' if you know what I mean, I wouldnt want to come out of thinking that its just 'gone by' and that I didnt appreciate it all, or totally 'experience' it!


Thanks for the posts everybody, I'm still a beginner here, trying to grasp and getting confused, but with time.....


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## Tgace (Aug 9, 2005)

Boiled down, meditation is about silencing all that "radio chatter" in your head. A side result of doing that is that you start "hearing" (observing) better because there are less distractions.


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 9, 2005)

Not being an expert at any of this, I sometimes refer to my mowing the lawn wiht my push lawn mower and riding my motorcycle as my Zen moments, I am at one with my surroundings and at peace. I try to increase my awareness without trying to decrease my enjoyment of the moment, or loose the connectivity to the environment.

Just my approach, not valid, not the answer, just my approach to describe some events that happen in my life. 

:asian:


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## MA-Caver (Aug 9, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Boiled down, meditation is about silencing all that "radio chatter" in your head. A side result of doing that is that you start "hearing" (observing) better because there are less distractions.


Exactly and _much better_ put than my long winded-ness... learning to be still enough to hear your own heartbeat, your own spirit speaking to you. 



			
				Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Not being an expert at any of this, I sometimes refer to my mowing the lawn wiht my push lawn mower and riding my motorcycle as my Zen moments, I am at one with my surroundings and at peace. I try to increase my awareness without trying to decrease my enjoyment of the moment, or loose the connectivity to the environment.
> 
> Just my approach, not valid, not the answer, just my approach to describe some events that happen in my life.



Exactly. it's not going to be the same for everyone. Nor is it going to be the same method. The cliche of sitting with legs folded in a lotus postion and chanting "*OOM*" is just that, a cliche.  It takes practice and it takes thought but you do find ways to "listen" to your innerself. When you learn to recognize that voice that is yours and yours alone then you will learn how to follow it. Hint: it's your heart and soul speaking.

I like the lyrics to this Eagles song... by the way. 


> *Learn To Be Still *
> It's just another day in paradise
> As you stumble to your bed
> You'd give anything to silence
> ...


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## Matt Stone (Aug 10, 2005)

So much talking about not talking...

So many words describing wordlessness...

CPL Hicks needs to meditate on meditating so he can meditate better, according to him...

Meditation is about meditation.  Becoming more aware of your surroundings comes from becoming more aware of your surroundings.  Beware the flower; it distracts from the wonder of the tree from which it blooms...


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 10, 2005)

Matt Stone said:
			
		

> Meditation is about meditation.  Becoming more aware of your surroundings comes from becoming more aware of your surroundings.  Beware the flower; it distracts from the wonder of the tree from which it blooms...



Yet I also enjoy hearing and watching the bee dance from flower to flower, as the bird sings, and ..., .


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## Corporal Hicks (Aug 10, 2005)

Matt Stone said:
			
		

> So much talking about not talking...
> 
> So many words describing wordlessness...
> 
> ...


Just like you shouldnt focus on the finger that points to the moon! If you do, you shall miss all that heavenly glory! quote BL


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## shesulsa (Aug 10, 2005)

I always related "Awareness" to the intense senses of all around you including that within you, and "Enlightenment" to the understanding of all around you including that within you, all that has been, all that is to be.


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## Corporal Hicks (Aug 11, 2005)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> I always related "Awareness" to the intense senses of all around you including that within you, and "Enlightenment" to the understanding of all around you including that within you, all that has been, all that is to be.


Thats what confused me?:idunno:


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## Corporal Hicks (Aug 11, 2005)

Matt Stone said:
			
		

> So
> 
> CPL Hicks needs to meditate on meditating so he can meditate better, according to him...
> 
> ...


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## Matt Stone (Aug 11, 2005)

Corporal Hicks said:
			
		

> Thats what confused me?:idunno:



What is confusing you is your continued attempts to rationalize and describe a concept, feeling, and condition that refuses to be limited by dualistic labels.

Non-duality is the core of Zen teaching, the goal is to achieve a condition whereby the true nature of a thing is directly experienced independent from its dualistic labeling.

Stop thinking (think about that one).

Just "be."

Remember the Zen admonition - "When you stand, just stand.  When you sit, just sit.  Whatever you do, *don't wobble.*"

Go think about that...    

 :asian:


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## Matt Stone (Aug 11, 2005)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> I always related "Awareness" to the intense senses of all around you including that within you, and "Enlightenment" to the understanding of all around you including that within you, all that has been, all that is to be.



And in defining them, labeling them, they are limited...

Enlightenment is so much less than what people expect.  Everyday awareness is so much more...  Which is the true "enlightenment?"

Always remember, "enlightenment isn't what you think..."

 :asian:


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## Matt Stone (Aug 11, 2005)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Yet I also enjoy hearing and watching the bee dance from flower to flower, as the bird sings, and ..., .



The best part of your post was the "..."

Very Zen.

.

 :asian:


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 11, 2005)

Matt Stone said:
			
		

> The best part of your post was the "..."
> 
> Very Zen.
> 
> ...




Thank you Sir :lol:

I enjoyed your posts greatly.

:asian:


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## Corporal Hicks (Aug 11, 2005)

Matt Stone said:
			
		

> And in defining them, labeling them, they are limited...
> 
> Enlightenment is so much less than what people expect. Everyday awareness is so much more... Which is the true "enlightenment?"
> 
> ...


Point actually hit home somewhere that time! That was strange. 
Thanks for the post!


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## Matt Stone (Aug 12, 2005)

Corporal Hicks said:
			
		

> Point actually hit home somewhere that time! That was strange.
> Thanks for the post!



That's how Zen works...  Better yet, that's how *understanding* works.

Sometimes, most times, when you think you've "got it," you are still terribly far off the mark.  When you *know*, you'll know...

Another Zen maxim - 

"He who knows, does not speak.  He who speaks, _does not know_."

Enjoy.

 :asian:


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## Corporal Hicks (Aug 22, 2005)

Well there is a new problem that has arisen from my meditation or attempts at is that is. I cant seem to silence my mind, my mind just talks in the back of my head, and even though I try and watch it, its as though it comes from the back door of me watching, if you get what I'm trying to say.

I.e. I'm watching the thoughts as they come by, but then I get something behind that telling that I'm watching the thoughts, and that just gets me confused. Can you understand that?

What can I do? Just recognise its there, dont get wound up about it and continue?

Though even If I try to do that, its still there, its telling me that ignoring it isnt going to help and neither will accepting.
What should I do?

Regards


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 23, 2005)

Corporal Hicks said:
			
		

> Well there is a new problem that has arisen from my meditation or attempts at is that is. I cant seem to silence my mind, my mind just talks in the back of my head, and even though I try and watch it, its as though it comes from the back door of me watching, if you get what I'm trying to say.



First, what works for me may not and most  likely will not work for you, but if it helps then good, but remember you should not walk my own path, you should walk your own, so adjust as you feel best.

Also note that if it were easy, you would not appreciate the end result.

When I try to do the empty mind approach, I try to concentrate on my heart and breathing, I try to slow it down and control its rate, and breath slowly, and control the amount of paue inbetween the inhale hold, exhale, hold, ..., .




			
				Corporal Hicks said:
			
		

> I.e. I'm watching the thoughts as they come by, but then I get something behind that telling that I'm watching the thoughts, and that just gets me confused. Can you understand that?



Yes, are you conscious of the fact that your unconcious is conscious of you. Read some Neitzsche, and other existentialists. 



			
				Corporal Hicks said:
			
		

> What can I do? Just recognise its there, dont get wound up about it and continue?



Yes. Recognise it. Yes acknowledge it, and continue.

Now you can try to think about certain things at your control, that will help you relax, such as a moving pattern with your inner "minds' eye", or what you saw through the day. Try to recall the whole day from start to beginning, and see what you can and cannot remember. After  a while of guiding your mind, you might be able to guide it into the quiet zone you are looking for.

What are you looking to get out of Meditation?



			
				Corporal Hicks said:
			
		

> Though even If I try to do that, its still there, its telling me that ignoring it isnt going to help and neither will accepting.
> What should I do?
> 
> Regards



Move on. Be aware of it, and also do not let it be the only thing you see. Sometimes by trying to see nothing, you see everything, so why not try to see everything, and maybe you might find nothing. 

I have found that if I reflect upon the issue bothering me, then once I have thought and or addressed them they no longer float around in my head, and I can move on.

It may not help, but it may.


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## heretic888 (Aug 24, 2005)

Just to chime in here....

According to the great nondual traditions like Zen, Vedanta Hinduism, or Neoplatonism, _Enlightenment_ isn't something you "get" or "find" or "locate" or "achieve". This would be akin to looking down and "finding" or "discovering" your feet, something that's been there the entire time, you've just been too dense to notice.

You're already Enlightened, its just that simple.


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## heretic888 (Aug 24, 2005)

My post didn't update this thread, either. Weird.


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## BlackCatBonz (Aug 24, 2005)

Corporal Hicks said:
			
		

> Well there is a new problem that has arisen from my meditation or attempts at is that is. I cant seem to silence my mind, my mind just talks in the back of my head, and even though I try and watch it, its as though it comes from the back door of me watching, if you get what I'm trying to say.
> 
> I.e. I'm watching the thoughts as they come by, but then I get something behind that telling that I'm watching the thoughts, and that just gets me confused. Can you understand that?
> 
> ...


you talk about doing meditation......could you explain what it is you do when you meditate?

there are certain methods that one can use to help when learning how to meditate properly. its much more than just sitting there quietly.


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## Corporal Hicks (Aug 25, 2005)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> you talk about doing meditation......could you explain what it is you do when you meditate?
> 
> there are certain methods that one can use to help when learning how to meditate properly. its much more than just sitting there quietly.


Well to write quickly for the sake of arguement, I usually do it spontaneously and not after sport or when I'm troubled so I usually grab a firm cushion and place it under my butt so my hips are inline then I make reference to my posture using some notes I got off of the internet and here. 
Then for about a minute or two I just look around me, calm down a bit, take in the light, the surroundings etc. Telling myself to expect nothing etc etc]
Then I close my eyes and start breathing, counting my breaths from one up to ten trying to focus, if I get distracted I just accept that I have and start from one again. Generally this takes me fifteen minutes just to get to relaxed state where there are gaps of 'no chatter' but after that I get really restless or my legs go numb and I eventually move.
Not only that sometimes It doesnt seem like I can breathe properly, I've tried changing my posture to but sometimes it feels like its forced from the stomach or tanden area and other times like its from my chest. 
Any ideas?

Regards


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## tradrockrat (Aug 26, 2005)

This thread is cracking me up.  I'm really enjoying it.  My teacher would have answered the origional question like this--


 "Go meditate on your question...  Come back when you find the answer."

 IMHO meditation is a tool to silence your mind long enough for it to do its job.  Other tools I use are rock climbing, sailing, and motorcycling.

 just my .02


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## Corporal Hicks (Aug 26, 2005)

tradrockrat said:
			
		

> This thread is cracking me up. I'm really enjoying it. My teacher would have answered the origional question like this--
> 
> 
> "Go meditate on your question... Come back when you find the answer."
> ...


To do what job exactly?

I would meditate on the question, If I knew when to start meditating on it?
See what I mean?
Regards


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## Corporal Hicks (Aug 26, 2005)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> What are you looking to get out of Meditation?
> 
> .


To understand myself better and to be more 'connected' to the world around me and its interaction.
In essence in aid of feeling more 'alive'!

When are zen koans meant to be used? Could you use them all the time? As you walking to work say? Or are they most effective during meditation?

Thanks for the posts everybody!

Regards


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## rutherford (Aug 26, 2005)

Corporal Hicks said:
			
		

> To do what job exactly?
> 
> I would meditate on the question, If I knew when to start meditating on it?
> See what I mean?
> Regards



Do you remember what I said about confusion?  

It is my belief that you already know the answer to any question you might desire to meditate upon.  

You just have to trust yourself and let go enough to hear the answer.


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## BlackCatBonz (Aug 26, 2005)

Corporal Hicks said:
			
		

> To understand myself better and to be more 'connected' to the world around me and its interaction.
> In essence in aid of feeling more 'alive'!
> 
> When are zen koans meant to be used? Could you use them all the time? As you walking to work say? Or are they most effective during meditation?
> ...


it sounds to me like you're looking for instant enlightenment. it doesnt happen that way.
you've just started down a road that some people stay on until the day they die and feel they only catch a glimpse.....if that.
before you can even connect to the world in the way which you speak, you have to begin by connecting to yourself. you have too many ideas and aspirations......lose em.
you're already becoming attached to the ideal which is defeating your entire purpose.
you're not ready to start contemplating koans if you cant sit and count out 10 breaths.
baby steps.......dont think beyond the now. when you meditate.....all there is is the moment. dont think consciously about your breathing, dont force yourself to breathe........just breathe and pay attention to the nuances of it. the rising of the abdomen, the beginning of inhalation, the air moving into your lungs, the brief pause as the abdomen reaches the end of inhalation and exhalation starts. visualize the air moving into your body as cool blue healing light.....cycling through your head, down your spine and settling in your tan tien.......from there it turns red with all of your negative thoughts and illness. it rises up the front of your body and is exhaled through your mouth.
thats one breath.
forget about everything else until you can do that...........took me about 5 years before i felt successful with my breathing.


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## Corporal Hicks (Aug 26, 2005)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> it sounds to me like you're looking for instant enlightenment. it doesnt happen that way.
> you've just started down a road that some people stay on until the day they die and feel they only catch a glimpse.....if that.
> before you can even connect to the world in the way which you speak, you have to begin by connecting to yourself. you have too many ideas and aspirations......lose em.
> you're already becoming attached to the ideal which is defeating your entire purpose.
> ...


Ok, thanks for your post, point taken!
Can I ask one thing though? Is it worth it? To go through all of that? And not even know that there will be something at the end? 
Or should I stick to the power of now? as that does give the feeling of connectness and a feeling of alive?  a satori experience?
Regards


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## BlackCatBonz (Aug 26, 2005)

Corporal Hicks said:
			
		

> Ok, thanks for your post, point taken!
> Can I ask one thing though? Is it worth it? To go through all of that? And not even know that there will be something at the end?
> Or should I stick to the power of now? as that does give the feeling of connectness and a feeling of alive? a satori experience?
> Regards


that choice is entirely upto you. how many people have faith in god and jesus?
they go through their lives having this faith in the hopes that at the end there is something wonderful and miraculous. 
is there something wonderful and miraculous? only they know......and we are simply enjoying the ride until its our turn.


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 26, 2005)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> Just to chime in here....
> 
> According to the great nondual traditions like Zen, Vedanta Hinduism, or Neoplatonism, _Enlightenment_ isn't something you "get" or "find" or "locate" or "achieve". This would be akin to looking down and "finding" or "discovering" your feet, something that's been there the entire time, you've just been too dense to notice.
> 
> You're already Enlightened, its just that simple.




Some people just need help and guiding to see that they have feet


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## heretic888 (Aug 27, 2005)

Corporal Hicks said:
			
		

> Recently as some of you may now I have been studying Buddhism (Zen). Now I was under the impression that enlightenment is that same goal as expressed in the Power of Now, the feeling of intense awareness of the world around you? Or am I incorrect?



I must qualify myself by saying that I have no personal experience or knowledge of the _Power of Now_ program, so I cannot comment on it specifically.

That being said, it has been my experience that much of the "modern" approaches to "self-realization" or "enlightenment" currently on the market actually have the opposite goal in mind. The purpose of radical Enlightenment (regardless of how we phrase it metaphysically) is to transcend the ego, or separate-self sense, altogether in a nondual unitive "state".

By contrast, much of the "spiritual programs" in the market are actually based upon strengthening the ego, raising self-esteem, making you feel good about "yourself" (I mean, you're God, y'know?), and are more focused on getting the ego to accept a new "paradigm" than dissolving and transforming the ego altogether.

This is where much of "New Age" or "postmodern" spiritual movements differ from the approaches offered in Zen, Vedanta, contemplative Christianity (re; St. John of the Cross), Kabbalah, or Sufism.

Just my thoughts.  :asian:


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## tradrockrat (Aug 28, 2005)

rutherford said:
			
		

> Do you remember what I said about confusion?
> 
> It is my belief that you already know the answer to any question you might desire to meditate upon.
> 
> You just have to trust yourself and let go enough to hear the answer.


 Excellent answer!

 I feel that the "obsession" many peopel have over the questions is causing them to miss the point.  You don't meditate to find answers because you already have those, one meditates to to enable the mind to *access* those answers.  That's what I meant by the mind "doing its job".

 Once the mind is Empty, or at a begining state (tabula rasa, we called it) the answer might just peak out and ask you (metephysically speaking) if you want to listen to it.

 So again, I say that meditation is a tool.  You use a hammer to drive a nail, you use meditation to quiet the mind...

 Here's a crummy example (aren't they all):

 You ever stretch out just because it feels good to do so?  I  mean, we should all be stretching before and after our workouts, but have you ever done it unconciously - just for fun?

 Try meditating just to be meditating.  Forget koans, questions and enlightenment.  Masters would say let go of desire, but lets stay grounded here.  Just do it to be doing it.  Don't persue some goal.  I don't ride a motorcycle to get somewhere, nor do I sail to get to a port.  I do it just because.  The same should be said of meditation.

 Enlightenment is almost a by product of the journey, no the destination.

 As we say in LaLa Land (Los Angeles) -- Chill out, dude!  Relax and enjoy the ride!

 PS - I am in no way enlightened! :wink:


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## heretic888 (Aug 29, 2005)

Not to go off-topic here, but...



			
				tradrockrat said:
			
		

> Once the mind is Empty, or at a begining state (tabula rasa, we called it) [...]



John Locke's _tabula rasa_ is in no way, shape, or form (pun intended!) the same thing as Nagarjuna's _shunyata_ or Zen's _mushin_. It is a grave error to confuse the two.

The so-called "blank slate" (_tabula rasa_) is a supposed condition that the Age of Reason empiricists postulated human infants were born into. In essence, it was assumed that human beings came into the world with no inherited knowledge or information outside of that acquired from the five physical senses, no _a priori_ truths to speak of. The belief was that all knowledge of the world and the self was acquired from personal experiences after birth. Opponents of this position include nativists and idealists such as Immanuel Kant, who believed humans were born with at least some _a priori_ knowledge about the world and themselves.

It should be noted that the _tabula rasa_ hypothesis has been thoroughly debunked and discredited by modern developmental psychology. We know with firm certainty that, whatever else a human newborn may be, he or she is most assuredly not a "blank slate". This includes both instinctual responses (such as a newborn being able to automatically recognize upright human faces as opposed to upside-down human faces), biological reflexes (such as the sucking reflex), empirical knowledge (newborns seem to possess what is called "intuitive theories" about things such as gravity, motion, inertia, and intentionality), and even "sensitive" periods of development (a child that is not exposed to human language up to a certain point will almost assuredly never learn it). The hypothesis remains completely unfounded.

By contrast, the Emptiness expounded by Mahayana Buddhism is not some "infant state" that you are born into. It is your "Original Face", the face you had "before your parents were born". Emptiness (_shunyata_) precedes and underlies the duality of manifest existence altogether. Its not something that just begins when you're born, and something you subsequently lose with self-awareness. It is a grave mistake to confuse pre-egoic with trans-egoic (philosopher Ken Wilber's (pre/trans fallacy).

Besides, most animals possess even _less_ self-awareness than a newborn infant. Yet we don't consider them to be consciously realized Buddhas. That is why there are prayers in Buddhism that give thanks for "this precious human body", because it is _only_ in an ADULT human that Emptiness can be fully realized. Not even the devas (gods) are given such a privilege.

This equating of infantile consciousness with Nirvana is common in Western pop-philosophy (and undoubtedly has its origins in the Age of Reason romanticism movement), as well as neo-Jungian psychology, but it is an unfounded position in both psychology and Buddhism.

Laterz.  :asian:


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## tradrockrat (Aug 29, 2005)

Yup.  Hume's Tabula Rasa has nothing to do with orthodox teaching of zen, meditation, or anything else for that matter, but it is a "catch phrase" that has wide (although erroneous) recognition in the western world.  That's why it was used to help describe what an empty mind might feel like to a western practitioner that is comming from such a different background that they might not give a hoot about one hand clapping.

 In fact, I have very little knowledge whatsoever about Buddihsm as it doesn't appeal to me at all, but Meditation is an independant activity, and that is what I was talking about.

 That's why I put it in parenthesis with the caveat that it was a personal description.  Sorry if I implied that I meant the literal Tabula Rasa hypothesis.  I'll need to be more careful in the future, thanks for pointing this out fior me.

 PS - Kants concepts of _a priori_ knoledge were dependant upon sensory experience _first_, then intuition supplies the concept.  He also had nothing to do with inborn insticts - in fact, he did NOT believe in them.  In _The Critique of Pure Reason_ he writes that all knowledge begins with experience, even if it doesn't actually need to arise from experience. He was wrong as was Hume.


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## heretic888 (Aug 29, 2005)

tradrockrat said:
			
		

> Hume's Tabula Rasa has nothing to do with orthodox teaching of zen, meditation, or anything else for that matter, but it is a "catch phrase" that has wide (although erroneous) recognition in the western world.  That's why it was used to help describe what an empty mind might feel like to a western practitioner that is comming from such a different background that they might not give a hoot about one hand clapping.



Okay, thanks for the clarification.



			
				tradrockrat said:
			
		

> In fact, I have very little knowledge whatsoever about Buddihsm as it doesn't appeal to me at all, but Meditation is an independant activity, and that is what I was talking about.



Yes, meditation is a practice common to pretty much every religion and can even be engaged in a secular context. However, when one mentions things like "Empty Mind" in a thread about "Enlightenment and Awareness", well, expect certain assumptions to be made. 



			
				tradrockrat said:
			
		

> That's why I put it in parenthesis with the caveat that it was a personal description.  Sorry if I implied that I meant the literal Tabula Rasa hypothesis.  I'll need to be more careful in the future, thanks for pointing this out fior me.



No worries. 



			
				tradrockrat said:
			
		

> In _The Critique of Pure Reason_ he writes that all knowledge begins with experience, even if it doesn't actually need to arise from experience.



I see.

Laterz.  :asian:


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## tradrockrat (Aug 30, 2005)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> Yes, meditation is a practice common to pretty much every religion and can even be engaged in a secular context. However, when one mentions things like "Empty Mind" in a thread about "Enlightenment and Awareness", well, expect certain assumptions to be made.


 You make an excellent point. :wink2:


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