# Wing Chun Online



## vince1 (Mar 14, 2017)

Anyone familiar with wingchunonline  home study course ? I am 2 hours away from the nearest wing chun school and thought I would try an online course.


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## Headhunter (Mar 14, 2017)

Do it if you want and it's better than nothing but it's no replacement for a real teacher you need to have someone to correct you


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## wingerjim (Mar 14, 2017)

Sorry you live so far away from a school, but you cannot learn Wing Chun online regardless of what the ads say. Wing Chun requires a great deal of touch with a training partner and correction from an instructor. Even after 6 years of study my teacher, who is coming up on 30 years of Wing Chun study, still corrects me all the time even though I thought I was doing everything 100% correct. The nice thing is what I am doing wrong is very small compared with the past, as this is the essence of Martial Arts, to continue the journey refining ever so much more but rather than big mistakes, the mistakes are very small now...so much so likely nobody else with even 10 years of training might notice, but a true master notices. What I would suggest is to try to drive those 2 hrs 1 or 2 times per month and come away with something to work on at home each time and work on it at home as much as humanly possible. Do this for a number of years and you will learn Wing Chun. Take the online course and you learn how to do real cool movements but will never get them correct and it will not be useful at all. Good luck and I don't mean to discourage you but am telling you the facts.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 14, 2017)

wingerjim said:


> Sorry you live so far away from a school, but you cannot learn Wing Chun online regardless of what the ads say. Wing Chun requires a great deal of touch with a training partner and correction from an instructor. Even after 6 years of study my teacher, who is coming up on 30 years of Wing Chun study, still corrects me all the time even though I thought I was doing everything 100% correct. The nice thing is what I am doing wrong is very small compared with the past, as this is the essence of Martial Arts, to continue the journey refining ever so much more but rather than big mistakes, the mistakes are very small now...so much so likely nobody else with even 10 years of training might notice, but a true master notices. What I would suggest is to try to drive those 2 hrs 1 or 2 times per month and come away with something to work on at home each time and work on it at home as much as humanly possible. Do this for a number of years and you will learn Wing Chun. Take the online course and you learn how to do real cool movements but will never get them correct and it will not be useful at all. Good luck and I don't mean to discourage you but am telling you the facts.


I'd say this is especially true of a form-based training method (like WC), because there's no "failure feedback" early in the process. To the OP - you need an instructor to help you get it right. Learning it wrong will actually lengthen the learning curve. Once you have some base, online training can help build on the base (same or similar style), but that's about as far as I'd go.


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## KPM (Mar 14, 2017)

vince1 said:


> Anyone familiar with wingchunonline  home study course ? I am 2 hours away from the nearest wing chun school and thought I would try an online course.




You CAN learn from video.  But it needs to be done in conjunction with hands on instruction.  I would advise driving the 2 hours to link up with the Wing Chun school and get started.  Find out what system they do and what videos or home study course the instructor would recommend.  Then start working from those videos and travel back to see the instructor for hands on training and correction as often as you can.  Find a partner to train with you and make the 2 hour drive with you.  You cannot train Wing Chun solo very well.  And that way you have someone to split the driving with!


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 14, 2017)

KPM said:


> You CAN learn from video.  But it needs to be done in conjunction with hands on instruction.  I would advise driving the 2 hours to link up with the Wing Chun school and get started.  Find out what system they do and what videos or home study course the instructor would recommend.  Then start working from those videos and travel back to see the instructor for hands on training and correction as often as you can.  Find a partner to train with you and make the 2 hour drive with you.  You cannot train Wing Chun solo very well.  And that way you have someone to split the driving with!


That's a good point. I didn't recommend the combination of live and video, simply because most instructors I know wouldn't have a specific recommendation for a beginner. However, if there exists a good set of training videos for the same style of WC, and it is recommended by the instructor you're training under, then it would be helpful. If he's recommending it, then he will likely be aware of any key differences between his approach and the one in the videos.


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## wingerjim (Mar 14, 2017)

KPM said:


> You CAN learn from video.  But it needs to be done in conjunction with hands on instruction.  I would advise driving the 2 hours to link up with the Wing Chun school and get started.  Find out what system they do and what videos or home study course the instructor would recommend.  Then start working from those videos and travel back to see the instructor for hands on training and correction as often as you can.  Find a partner to train with you and make the 2 hour drive with you.  You cannot train Wing Chun solo very well.  And that way you have someone to split the driving with!


I disagree with KPM in that you CAN get some ideas from video instruction, but this is almost exclusively knowledge and not instruction that applies to the physical aspects or WC, so my thinking was spend the money on gas to drive 2 hrs or waste the money on videos for a beginner. WC requires so much touching with a training partner nobody can learn the essence of WC from a video. Sure a video can give a skilled trainee some ideas but someone new cannot make heads or tails out of the essence even with another training partner lacking experience. Maybe if vince1 is closer to another student of this school, say 1/2hr in his direction, he can connect with that individual for some training but WC requires a teacher.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 14, 2017)

Video can be good as a supplemental tool, but not as the primary or only source of instruction.  Not all video is compatible as a supplementary tool, with all instruction.  There is a lot of variation out there.  Video that does not closely match with the direct instruction will cause confusion and problems.

best to get your instruction face-to-face with a good instructor, even if the drive is long, even if the training goes slowly because the visits are infrequent.  

Video training is not better than nothing.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 14, 2017)

wingerjim said:


> I disagree with KPM in that you CAN get some ideas from video instruction, but this is almost exclusively knowledge and not instruction that applies to the physical aspects or WC, so my thinking was spend the money on gas to drive 2 hrs or waste the money on videos for a beginner. WC requires so much touching with a training partner nobody can learn the essence of WC from a video. Sure a video can give a skilled trainee some ideas but someone new cannot make heads or tails out of the essence even with another training partner lacking experience. Maybe if vince1 is closer to another student of this school, say 1/2hr in his direction, he can connect with that individual for some training but WC requires a teacher.


My thought was that the right set of videos can improve the practice one puts in alone, between visits to an instructor. Rather than depending upon your own memory, you have a more accurate model to work from.


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## wckf92 (Mar 14, 2017)

vince1 said:


> Anyone familiar with wingchunonline  home study course ? I am 2 hours away from the nearest wing chun school and thought I would try an online course.



Dude...this question gets asked A LOT on a LOT of forums across the ol' interweb. I'd suggest using the search function as you'd probably dig up a lot decent threads, opinions, and input (both good and bad).


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## vince1 (Mar 14, 2017)

wingerjim said:


> I disagree with KPM in that you CAN get some ideas from video instruction, but this is almost exclusively knowledge and not instruction that applies to the physical aspects or WC, so my thinking was spend the money on gas to drive 2 hrs or waste the money on videos for a beginner. WC requires so much touching with a training partner nobody can learn the essence of WC from a video. Sure a video can give a skilled trainee some ideas but someone new cannot make heads or tails out of the essence even with another training partner lacking experience. Maybe if vince1 is closer to another student of this school, say 1/2hr in his direction, he can connect with that individual for some training but WC requires a teacher.



I appreciate all the advice and may initially go to the school 2 hours away on a monthly bases. If I can find another student from the same school closer to me then I may work something out on a weekly bases. You are all correct that there is nothing like working with a training partner as well as a teacher(sifu) observing and making corrections. My weekly Southern Mantis/ShipPalKi classes are in person working with a partner.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 14, 2017)

vince1 said:


> I appreciate all the advice and may initially go to the school 2 hours away on a monthly bases. If I can find another student from the same school closer to me then I may work something out on a weekly bases. You are all correct that there is nothing like working with a training partner as well as a teacher(sifu) observing and making corrections. My weekly Southern Mantis/ShipPalKi classes are in person working with a partner.


Tell us about your mantis training.  Is it going well?  Is there a need for the wing chun?


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## wingerjim (Mar 14, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Tell us about your mantis training.  Is it going well?  Is there a need for the wing chun?


Sure there is a need for WC because life just is not life without WC.


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## KPM (Mar 14, 2017)

wingerjim said:


> I disagree with KPM in that you CAN get some ideas from video instruction, but this is almost exclusively knowledge and not instruction that applies to the physical aspects or WC,.



No disrespect intended wingjim, but you are wrong.   And I know because I have done it quite effectively.  It has worked for me when I didn't live close to my teacher.  In fact, one of my teachers lives in Hong Kong and I live in the US!   I have most certainly learned many good things from video and learned them fairly well.  It just takes a little physical talent and some hard work, but it can be done.


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## KPM (Mar 14, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> My thought was that the right set of videos can improve the practice one puts in alone, between visits to an instructor. Rather than depending upon your own memory, you have a more accurate model to work from.



Absolutely!  Let's say you live 2 hours from a TWC teacher.   So you get GM Cheung's video series that he did for Black Belt Magazine about 10 years ago.  So you can see the GM himself explaining how to do things and demonstrating the forms.  What better reference can you have to support your hands on training than that???


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## Flying Crane (Mar 14, 2017)

KPM said:


> Absolutely!  Let's say you live 2 hours from a TWC teacher.   So you get GM Cheung's video series that he did for Black Belt Magazine about 10 years ago.  So you can see the GM himself explaining how to do things and demonstrating the forms.  What better reference can you have to support your hands on training than that???


If your teacher is also in Cheung's lineage, and if there have not been significant modifications along the way, then yes, those videos could be a useful aid.

If you are in a different lineage, especially one that does not trace thru Yip Man, then those videos could equate to more problems than they are useful.


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## vince1 (Mar 14, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Tell us about your mantis training.  Is it going well?  Is there a need for the wing chun?



I am always interested in learning something new to add. I started with Southern Mantis-Chow Gar, Seven Star, Northern Mantis  with some Hapkido  and Ship Pal Ki Kung Fu about a year ago. The main focus is Southern Mantis and Ship Pal Ki. I really enjoy the Southern Mantis and the Ship Pal Ki is starting to grow on me. I have a very good teacher(sifu) with well over 45 years of martial arts training in many martial arts. I have a red belt in TaeKwonDo that I acquired about 35 years ago .


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## Flying Crane (Mar 14, 2017)

vince1 said:


> I am always interested in learning something new to add. I started with Southern Mantis-Chow Gar, Seven Star, Northern Mantis  with some Hapkido  and Ship Pal Ki Kung Fu about a year ago. The main focus is Southern Mantis and Ship Pal Ki. I really enjoy the Southern Mantis and the Ship Pal Ki is starting to grow on me. I have a very good teacher(sifu) with well over 45 years of martial arts training in many martial arts. I have a red belt in TaeKwonDo that I acquired about 35 years ago .


Good stuff.  

For myself, I also trained in a number of different systems, and through that variety I was finally able to focus on one system that was the best fit for me.  I suggest you keep that in mind, but feel free to explore.


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## vince1 (Mar 14, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Good stuff.
> 
> For myself, I also trained in a number of different systems, and through that variety I was finally able to focus on one system that was the best fit for me.  I suggest you keep that in mind, but feel free to explore.


Yes I agree and is the reason I like the southern mantis so well. It's a very well thought out martial arts system and have been told that thee WC is closely related. I am over fifty and would rather surprise an attacker in a close range situation and find the mantis very useful.


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## KPM (Mar 14, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> If your teacher is also in Cheung's lineage, and if there have not been significant modifications along the way, then yes, those videos could be a useful aid.
> 
> If you are in a different lineage, especially one that does not trace thru Yip Man, then those videos could equate to more problems than they are useful.



Which is why I said if you were 2 hours away from a TWC teacher......and getting the GM Cheung videos.  And also why I told the OP to find out what lineage the teacher 2 hours away from him follows and then ask the instructor what videos he would recommend.


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## vince1 (Mar 14, 2017)

KPM said:


> Which is why I said if you were 2 hours away from a TWC teacher......and getting the GM Cheung videos.  And also why I told the OP to find out what lineage the teacher 2 hours away from him follows and then ask the instructor what videos he would recommend.


The school that is 2 hrs awy is affiliated with the Canadian Wing Chun Kung Fu association. Sifu Brian Lewadny is the head of this association and was a student of Grand Master William Cheung. I will check into the DVD's as well. Appreciate everyone's help.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 14, 2017)

KPM said:


> Absolutely!  Let's say you live 2 hours from a TWC teacher.   So you get GM Cheung's video series that he did for Black Belt Magazine about 10 years ago.  So you can see the GM himself explaining how to do things and demonstrating the forms.  What better reference can you have to support your hands on training than that???


Are you giving me training suggestions now, KPM? Am I really going to need that WC dummy I want so much?


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## Dylan9d (Mar 15, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Are you giving me training suggestions now, KPM? Am I really going to need that WC dummy I want so much?



Don't let KPM convert you to his cult!!!


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## KPM (Mar 15, 2017)

vince1 said:


> The school that is 2 hrs awy is affiliated with the Canadian Wing Chun Kung Fu association. Sifu Brian Lewadny is the head of this association and was a student of Grand Master William Cheung. I will check into the DVD's as well. Appreciate everyone's help.



I think Lewadny parted ways with GM Cheung long ago.  But I'll bet the training methods and curriculum haven't changed that much! 

Amazon.com: Wing Chun Kung Fu Vol. 1 with William M. Cheung: William Cheung, Dan Ivan: Movies & TV


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## vince1 (Mar 15, 2017)

KPM said:


> I think Lewadny parted ways with GM Cheung long ago.  But I'll bet the training methods and curriculum haven't changed that much!
> 
> Amazon.com: Wing Chun Kung Fu Vol. 1 with William M. Cheung: William Cheung, Dan Ivan: Movies & TV


Thank you.


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## wingerjim (Mar 15, 2017)

KPM said:


> No disrespect intended wingjim, but you are wrong.   And I know because I have done it quite effectively.  It has worked for me when I didn't live close to my teacher.  In fact, one of my teachers lives in Hong Kong and I live in the US!   I have most certainly learned many good things from video and learned them fairly well.  It just takes a little physical talent and some hard work, but it can be done.


KPM, none taken. I would imagine you had a great deal of training before doing remote training. I believe our new friend vince1 indicated he had not learned any WC so the original question was an inquiry about learning online. I tried to learn WC from books and videos but found until I began training with a qualified teacher I only filled my head with unusable knowledge meaning I could not apply a thing. In fact once I talked with my teacher he had little to say about the books I brought him and simply said lets get started. Today he does give me freedom to experiment, not because he is controling, but because he wanted me to learn the basics so I had some substance before he gave me permission to explore myself and my art. So, I must disagree that someone with no prior training can effectively learn a martial art online....key word effectively. I am not saying these are a waste of money because I have ~40 books and 10 or so videos but they are for a new individual.


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## KPM (Mar 15, 2017)

^^^^^ Fair enough Jim!


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## Jut (Mar 15, 2017)

KPM said:


> Absolutely!  Let's say you live 2 hours from a TWC teacher.   So you get GM Cheung's video series that he did for Black Belt Magazine about 10 years ago.  So you can see the GM himself explaining how to do things and demonstrating the forms.  What better reference can you have to support your hands on training than that???


I'm not sure what you mean by your last sentence. If one is going to learn from WCheung's video's, you'll definitely need to attend a WCheung school, since Everything he teaches has HIS own stamp, and is NOT found executed that way in any other lineage. His hand forms and Jong form, hand techniques [Huen sau, etc.] are ALL _very_ different from other Ip lineages!
Before the hate male, I didn't say wrong.. I said different. In fact, _my_ lineage is unique.. the 'early' teachings from Ip's private student who left Hong Kong in 1958. It is different and won't be found on Youtube, or anywhere else, for that matter. EG: the form on our 1st jong, has 11 sets and 168 movements. 
Anyway, one can o_nly_ learn the 'very basics' of true WC from video's! It would be like the sighted learning braille from pictures, or learn swimming without water. The chi-sau aspects [not just Phoon sau] of sensitivity training alone, are peppered throughout the system and to learn [feel] that, one 'must' have a partner.


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## KPM (Mar 15, 2017)

Jut said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by your last sentence. If one is going to learn from WCheung's video's, you'll definitely need to attend a WCheung school, since Everything he teaches has HIS own stamp, and is NOT found executed that way in any other lineage. .



Which is why I wrote "Let's say you live 2 hours from a TWC teacher."    TWC stands for Traditional Wing Chun, which is William Cheung's system.    So what I mean by the last sentence is this ......who better to have on video showing basics of the system and the forms than the Grandmaster of the system himself!!!


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## Vajramusti (Mar 15, 2017)

Jut said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by your last sentence. If one is going to learn from WCheung's video's, you'll definitely need to attend a WCheung school, since Everything he teaches has HIS own stamp, and is NOT found executed that way in any other lineage. His hand forms and Jong form, hand techniques [Huen sau, etc.] are ALL _very_ different from other Ip lineages!
> Before the hate male, I didn't say wrong.. I said different. In fact, _my_ lineage is unique.. the 'early' teachings from Ip's private student who left Hong Kong in 1958. It is different and won't be found on Youtube, or anywhere else, for that matter. EG: the form on our 1st jong, has 11 sets and 168 movements.
> Anyway, one can o_nly_ learn the 'very basics' of true WC from video's! It would be like the sighted learning braille from pictures, or learn swimming without water. The chi-sau aspects [not just Phoon sau] of sensitivity training alone, are peppered throughout the system and to learn [feel] that, one 'must' have a partner.


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## Vajramusti (Mar 15, 2017)

Who would that be


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## Jut (Mar 16, 2017)

KPM said:


> Which is why I wrote "Let's say you live 2 hours from a TWC teacher."    TWC stands for Traditional Wing Chun, which is William Cheung's system.    So what I mean by the last sentence is this ......who better to have on video showing basics of the system and the forms than the Grandmaster of the system himself!!!


That reasoning would be sound, except for two warmly debated points.. the definition of 'Traditional', and WCheung being the 'Grandmaster' of the system. Forgive me, but I just joined this pai yesterday and am not familiar with the depth of your Wing Chun [WC] knowledge.. regarding its history, mainly.
Without getting too deep, there are branches of WC that don't pass through Chan Wah Shun [Ip Man's SiFu], and are adamant that only _they _have the 'pure', or as you say, Traditional, WC.
As for WCheung being the Grandmaster of the system, I could first ask.. define 'System'. [see above] Another argument is.. where in history did all the other WC masters bestow Ip Man as Grandmaster?  The answer is, _no one_ did. That being the case, how could he 'pass down' what he did not have?
For the sake of argument, let's assume IM Was 'Grandmaster'. Before his death, he never passed the WC torch to anyone, and THAT subject.. 'Who is his successor', is hotly debated. Of his two sons, Ching was more involved with his father and his WC teachings than his older brother, Chun.. who, like many young men, had big-time daddy issues with his father, yet many erroneously assume HE was handed the torch.
The fact is, you'll find there is a long list of _many_ 'self-appointed' IM successors. 
Something to keep in mind, KPM, Ip Man knew the _complete_ system [which did Not end with the knives] and only taught it to a few! As much as I respect WCheung's abilities, he never learned, for example, the Moi fa _Or_ Tri-podal sets from his SiFu. So KPM.. with this _teeny_ bit of extra intel, who really IS [or should be/have been] Ip Man's successor?


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## Dylan9d (Mar 16, 2017)

Jut said:


> That reasoning would be sound, except for two warmly debated points.. the definition of 'Traditional', and WCheung being the 'Grandmaster' of the system. Forgive me, but I just joined this pai yesterday and am not familiar with the depth of your Wing Chun [WC] knowledge.. regarding its history, mainly.
> Without getting too deep, there are branches of WC that don't pass through Chan Wah Shun [Ip Man's SiFu], and are adamant that only _they _have the 'pure', or as you say, Traditional, WC.
> As for WCheung being the Grandmaster of the system, I could first ask.. define 'System'. [see above] Another argument is.. where in history did all the other WC masters bestow Ip Man as Grandmaster?  The answer is, _no one_ did. That being the case, how could he 'pass down' what he did not have?
> For the sake of argument, let's assume IM Was 'Grandmaster'. Before his death, he never passed the WC torch to anyone, and THAT subject.. 'Who is his successor', is hotly debated. Of his two sons, Ching was more involved with his father and his WC teachings than his older brother, Chun.. who, like many young men, had big-time daddy issues with his father, yet many erroneously assume HE was handed the torch.
> ...



Maybe it's nice if you would make a post in Meet & Greet before diving head on into the Wing Chun debates.

Then they know who they are talking to and what your background is.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 16, 2017)

Jut said:


> That reasoning would be sound, except for two warmly debated points.. the definition of 'Traditional', and WCheung being the 'Grandmaster' of the system. Forgive me, but I just joined this pai yesterday and am not familiar with the depth of your Wing Chun [WC] knowledge.. regarding its history, mainly.
> Without getting too deep, there are branches of WC that don't pass through Chan Wah Shun [Ip Man's SiFu], and are adamant that only _they _have the 'pure', or as you say, Traditional, WC.
> As for WCheung being the Grandmaster of the system, I could first ask.. define 'System'. [see above] Another argument is.. where in history did all the other WC masters bestow Ip Man as Grandmaster?  The answer is, _no one_ did. That being the case, how could he 'pass down' what he did not have?
> For the sake of argument, let's assume IM Was 'Grandmaster'. Before his death, he never passed the WC torch to anyone, and THAT subject.. 'Who is his successor', is hotly debated. Of his two sons, Ching was more involved with his father and his WC teachings than his older brother, Chun.. who, like many young men, had big-time daddy issues with his father, yet many erroneously assume HE was handed the torch.
> ...


"Traditional Wing Chun" is what Cheung called his branch of the art - his system. So, when you see someone referring to TWC, they are typically referring specifically to his branch.


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## Jut (Mar 16, 2017)

Vajramusti said:


> Who would that be


My understanding Vaj is that Ip Man had 5 "private' students while SiFu in Hong Kong. For some reason, Chinese culture perhaps, the names of four were kept under wraps and known by only a couple of his close students/family member.
One of these was a young teen who came from a wealthy family and had studied hung-gar before he began training WC with Ip. After a month or so of training he watched a beimo fight, and although seeing his SiHing win, he wasn't that impressed, as he'd been hit and his nose was bloodied. After expressing his doubts to Ip about what he saw, he took him aside. The tuition for students at that time was $8[HK] per month, and Ip Man asked if he could afford $300 per month and was told, "of coarse!"  According to his book, he had A.D.D. and the parents were glad to pay. Ip supposedly said, "Forget what you've learned", showed him a couple of changes, and a light went on.
He trained several hours a day, every day, for five+ years. After the knives, [which he became so proficient, Ip gave him his pair when leaving HK], he then learned the tripodal, [3 sizes] and moi-fa. He became known in the early 60's when he began teaching in NYC. He became better known after kicking the crap out of a very well known student of IP's. His name is Hung Leung.. English name, Duncan Leung.


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## Jut (Mar 16, 2017)

Dylan9d said:


> Maybe it's nice if you would make a post in Meet & Greet before diving head on into the Wing Chun debates.
> 
> Then they know who they are talking to and what your background is.


Thank you for the counsel.


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## geezer (Mar 16, 2017)

Nothing against Duncan Leung. He is well respected. But your story is pure folklore and unverifiable. People passed on similar tales about my old sifu, and others. Best to take them with a grain of salt.


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## DanT (Mar 16, 2017)

vince1 said:


> Anyone familiar with wingchunonline  home study course ? I am 2 hours away from the nearest wing chun school and thought I would try an online course.


What are your goals? What are you training for? How many hours a week will you be dedicating to training?


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## vince1 (Mar 16, 2017)

I have been in touch with a well respected sifu/teacher from Kitchener Ontario Canada 2 hours away. We will be meeting in the very near future(May) at one of his Sunday classes to discuss monthly one on one sessions as well as his dvd series to practice at home. I currently train in Southern Mantis daily at my home gym as well as in class on Saturday mornings for a 1 1/2 hours. My goal is for personal health/well being as well as the brain challenge it may bring. Lastly it is my hope that in the near future I can teach my grandchildren(3 to 4years) . I hope Wing Chun is just as physically and mentally stimulating as the Southern Mantis Kung -Fu I have been studying.


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## Jut (Mar 17, 2017)

geezer said:


> Nothing against Duncan Leung. He is well respected. But your story is pure folklore and unverifiable. People passed on similar tales about my old sifu, and others. Best to take them with a grain of salt.


Which story, Geezer?  haha


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## Jut (Mar 17, 2017)

DanT said:


> What are your goals? What are you training for? How many hours a week will you be dedicating to training?


Well, my goal is to finish my book. Wing Chun, IMHO, is the most abused system out there, so I'd like to clarify a few things, I guess. I train because I am constantly learning. My SiFu has over 25 yrs under his belt, and because our system is complete [just sayin.. ] his 'light bulb', if you will, keeps lighting up as he recognizes something from, say the moifa, that ties in with SLT.
It's a simple system as far as principles go, yet it's incredibly deep Application wise.
I work out daily, but take the advise Sun Lu Tang once gave.. "don't do any one thing, too much." 
I also give private lessons to a select few.


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## Jut (Mar 17, 2017)

vince1 said:


> I have been in touch with a well respected sifu/teacher from Kitchener Ontario Canada 2 hours away. We will be meeting in the very near future(May) at one of his Sunday classes to discuss monthly one on one sessions as well as his dvd series to practice at home. I currently train in Southern Mantis daily at my home gym as well as in class on Saturday mornings for a 1 1/2 hours. My goal is for personal health/well being as well as the brain challenge it may bring. Lastly it is my hope that in the near future I can teach my grandchildren(3 to 4years) . I hope Wing Chun is just as physically and mentally stimulating as the Southern Mantis Kung -Fu I have been studying.


Southern Mantis is a strong style, nice choice.
I'm assuming the Canada trip is to investigate Wing Chun? If so, you should enjoy your visit and let me know what you think of WC. I'd also be interested in what, if any, differences Chuck see's between Moy Yat's lineage, and WSL's.
Thanks


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## Jut (Mar 17, 2017)

Hhmm..  here I was thinking the 'Alerts' up top were to me.   Still learning..  ~sigh


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 17, 2017)

Jut said:


> Hhmm..  here I was thinking the 'Alerts' up top were to me.   Still learning..  ~sigh


They are. You'll see alerts that let you know someone responded to a thread you are "watching" (setting at the top of the thread), as well as when someone replies directly to you (listed as a "quote"). You'll get a separate notification ("inbox") if you get a private message.


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## Jut (Mar 17, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> They are. You'll see alerts that let you know someone responded to a thread you are "watching" (setting at the top of the thread), as well as when someone replies directly to you (listed as a "quote"). You'll get a separate notification ("inbox") if you get a private message.


Thanks Gpsey.. I knew something wasn't right. I'm not that interesting.  hahaha


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## vince1 (Mar 17, 2017)

Jut said:


> Southern Mantis is a strong style, nice choice.
> I'm assuming the Canada trip is to investigate Wing Chun? If so, you should enjoy your visit and let me know what you think of WC. I'd also be interested in what, if any, differences Chuck see's between Moy Yat's lineage, and WSL's.
> Thanks



I am looking forward to meeting Chuck and hope it's a good fit me. If it's not I will stick with the mantis.


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## geezer (Mar 17, 2017)

Jut said:


> Which story, Geezer?  haha


Seriously, _all of them! _

Still, a good story is always worth re-telling. Like this one about Duncan Leung, told to me by a student of mine who trained with Leung Sifu many years back.

He said he was present at a banquet dinner with Leung Sifu after a special seminar or something ....and Leung Sifu was talking to some of his senior students while eating dinner when he said "You know I could even kill a man with chopsticks if I had to!" whereupon he flicked his wrist, sending his chopsticks across the table where the stuck into the opposite wall.

Don't know if its true, ...but it's a really cool story


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## geezer (Mar 17, 2017)

Jut said:


> ... My SiFu has over 25 yrs under his belt, and because *our system is complete* [just sayin.. ] his 'light bulb', if you will, keeps lighting up as he recognizes something from, say the moifa, that ties in with SLT. ...It's a simple system as far as principles go, yet it's incredibly deep Application wise.



Jut, the phrase "complete system" can be used to mean different things. Can you elaborate on what you mean when you say "our system is complete"? Do you mean the complete system that GM Ip Man taught? ...or a complete and integrated system of pugilism, or do you mean that it addresses all areas of combat? In what way do you consider it uniquely complete?


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## Jut (Mar 18, 2017)

geezer said:


> Seriously, _all of them! _
> 
> Still, a good story is always worth re-telling. Like this one about Duncan Leung, told to me by a student of mine who trained with Leung Sifu many years back.
> 
> ...


Haha  -thats cool. Sounds like him. Probably one of his lessons on situational awareness.. creating a weapon where none seem to exist.  
Here's another.. Contrary to how Ip's portrayed, he did encourage certain ones to 'go out', fight, and see for themselves if 'whatever', worked. Duncan knew someone at the prison [in China] and at some point, after the Knives, he would strike some deal with someone on death row.. like a death match.  I understand he was very confident.  
Like you said..  really cool stories. Many from his own book.


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## Jut (Mar 18, 2017)

geezer said:


> Jut, the phrase "complete system" can be used to mean different things. Can you elaborate on what you mean when you say "our system is complete"? Do you mean the complete system that GM Ip Man taught? ...or a complete and integrated system of pugilism, or do you mean that it addresses all areas of combat? In what way do you consider it uniquely complete?


Sure! My dyslexia produces unusual sentence and paragraph structure, and this subject is a bit complicated and.. delicate[?], so please bear with me.
By saying "Complete", I'm referring to the entire WC system that Ip Man learned from Chan Wah Shun and Leung Bik, that was not presented to everyone. It's apparent to me, from what I've gleaned over the years, [training, sharing, reading, Youtube, etc.], that not everyone was taught the same depth of WC's technical applications, nor the entirety of the system. And, as I'm sure you know, the Wing Chun system doesn't end with the knives, like many are told. There is another area of advanced footwork that probably makes up another 20%, that follow knives. So to answer your question on why I feel _my_ lineage is unique.. ONE reason is my training includes this extra 20%. This includes 4 separate Jong's, with each containing several sets.
Also, _all_ our forms are different.. NO Bil Jee even close.. [a Disciple was chided by Duncan when he just showed the Pole 'thrust' in a pic he published, because no one (we've seen) does the thrust like_ he_ [Duncan] was taught.. same with Knife, _very_ different. I'm referring to his early 70's WC. Since then he teaches   'Applied WC' now.. not the same. ]

Sidebar -Each pole of the mid size Gerk Jong is about 4". Chow Tze Chun, [just passed a cpl months ago] one of Ip Man's early and long time students, and who was with him long enough to learn WC advanced kicking, claims Ip could break' two poles' with his kick.     [another one of those cool stories] If you look him up, [CTC] you'll see a famous pic of him from the 50's, kneeling with few of Ip's other students. Standing on the right is a teenager in a white shirt. That's Duncan.

Also, when I say 5 "private" students, I don't mean they're anonymous, Geezer, I mean five that were taken aside for special reasons, and taught something a little different.. as in technically elevated?  I.E., IMHO, WSL is one of these five.. taught one thing in class, then taken aside later and given more insight. That being said, I've never seen any of his disciples teaching advanced footwork on tripodal, or Moifa [plumb blossom posts].  Just sayin..   
I heard only a couple people know who they are.  Allen Lee was one, and HE recently passed as well. 
I hope this covers that Q, Geezer. It's little things in the system that are interesting to me.. like CTC's moifa training was on 5 posts, and ours has a 6th.. one in the middle. Hhmmm
FYI- now that CTC's passed, his senior student Donald Mak claims that -_He-_ is now Ip Man's 'Traditional' WC successor and Grandmaster.      -yo, stand in line, pal!  hahaha


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## Vajramusti (Mar 18, 2017)

Jut said:


> Sure! My dyslexia produces unusual sentence and paragraph structure, and this subject is a bit complicated and.. delicate[?], so please bear with me.
> By saying "Complete", I'm referring to the entire WC system that Ip Man learned from Chan Wah Shun and Leung Bik, that was not presented to everyone. It's apparent to me, from what I've gleaned over the years, [training, sharing, reading, Youtube, etc.], that not everyone was taught the same depth of WC's technical applications, nor the entirety of the system. And, as I'm sure you know, the Wing Chun system doesn't end with the knives, like many are told. There is another area of advanced footwork that probably makes up another 20%, that follow knives. So to answer your question on why I feel _my_ lineage is unique.. ONE reason is my training includes this extra 20%. This includes 4 separate Jong's, with each containing several sets.
> Also, _all_ our forms are different.. NO Bil Jee even close.. [a Disciple was chided by Duncan when he just showed the Pole 'thrust' in a pic he published, because no one (we've seen) does the thrust like_ he_ [Duncan] was taught.. same with Knife, _very_ different. I'm referring to his early 70's WC. Since then he teaches   'Applied WC' now.. not the same. ]
> 
> ...


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## Vajramusti (Mar 18, 2017)

------------

Egos and stories !


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## geezer (Mar 18, 2017)

From my own perspective, I don't believe in "the secret five" story, or that there are certain advanced techniques that make some WC better than the rest. There are important differences behind the different WC/VT/WT systems being taught, but the most important things are the basics and the underlying concepts.

For example, the simple _concept of forward intent_ is absolutely fundamental to my VT. So when I happened across this clip of a teacher named Sinclair, I was surprised by the lack of _forward intent_ in the Chi-Sau technique demonstrated. Notice the way he applies pak sau in chi-sau from about 1:00 to 1:35 leaving his partner's fist free to strike. At around 1:29 - 1:31 he explains that he prevents this by pulling inward toward himself! This is not an approach we would ever advocate in our lineage! It simply would not reinforce the attribute of springy forward energy we desire. Furthermore, applied against a partner of otherwise equal ability, it would almost certainly result in your getting punched square in the chest.






Now in spite of this, this guy may be a great fighter. Who knows? My point is simply that what matters to me is not techniques, but the basics, and the concepts behind them.


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## DanT (Mar 18, 2017)

I think if you train alone mainly it would be wise to invest in a Heavy Bag.

Things you won't be able to do:
-Chi Sao
-sparring
-pad work
-partner Drills 

Things you will be able to do:
-footwork practice
-techniques in air
-form 
-Heavy Bag 

I think your training with people should focus on the things you can't do. It would be very hard in my opinion to learn Wing Chun practicing only once a week with a partner. At least the way I train, 75% of my training is with a partner (partner Drills, sparring, Chi Sao, pad work). The forms have never been a huge part of my training even though I do them daily.


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## Jut (Mar 19, 2017)

geezer said:


> From my own perspective, I don't believe in "the secret five" story, or that there are certain advanced techniques that make some WC better than the rest. There are important differences behind the different WC/VT/WT systems being taught, but the most important things are the basics and the underlying concepts.
> 
> For example, the simple _concept of forward intent_ is absolutely fundamental to my VT. So when I happened across this clip of a teacher named Sinclair, I was surprised by the lack of _forward intent_ in the Chi-Sau technique demonstrated. Notice the way he applies pak sau in chi-sau from about 1:00 to 1:35 leaving his partner's fist free to strike. At around 1:29 - 1:31 he explains that he prevents this by pulling inward toward himself! This is not an approach we would ever advocate in our lineage! It simply would not reinforce the attribute of springy forward energy we desire. Furthermore, applied against a partner of otherwise equal ability, it would almost certainly result in your getting punched square in the chest.
> 
> ...


Yea, the '5 guy' story can't be verified either way, but I also treasure hunt, and something I learned years back in doing research was.. there's usually some truth within a rumor or popular story.  Also, as you pointed out.. some stories are just cool. 

I'm sure my explanation was lacking since you actually made the point I was trying to convey, with your comment on forward intent vs lack-of. To me, that would be a good example of what I meant regarding technique, with the former being a better technique than the latter. I teach it as 'Pressing the action', and like you, I believe this is a paramount WC concept.

The video.  
Sorry Geezer, I tried to listen at 1:00, but the video was a little painful from :20 on. I mean, other than having no horse, no footwork, lineal thinking, no gate understanding, no elbow understanding, no grasp of 'sleepy hand'.. not bad, I guess.


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## geezer (Mar 19, 2017)

Sorry. It was not my intent to cause you such anguish!


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## Cephalopod (Mar 20, 2017)

geezer said:


> From my own perspective, I don't believe in "the secret five" story, or that there are certain advanced techniques that make some WC better than the rest. There are important differences behind the different WC/VT/WT systems being taught, but the most important things are the basics and the underlying concepts.
> 
> For example, the simple _concept of forward intent_ is absolutely fundamental to my VT. So when I happened across this clip of a teacher named Sinclair, I was surprised by the lack of _forward intent_ in the Chi-Sau technique demonstrated. Notice the way he applies pak sau in chi-sau from about 1:00 to 1:35 leaving his partner's fist free to strike. At around 1:29 - 1:31 he explains that he prevents this by pulling inward toward himself! This is not an approach we would ever advocate in our lineage! It simply would not reinforce the attribute of springy forward energy we desire. Furthermore, applied against a partner of otherwise equal ability, it would almost certainly result in your getting punched square in the chest.
> 
> ...




Indeed a bizarre video, Geezer.
In the existing circumstances, the teacher can safely get away with the technique as applied because of his student's forward leaning aspect and collapsed posture. Once the pak is applied to his arm, he's so far on his toes, a retaliatory strike is (almost) out of the question.

It would seem that the teacher's energy would be better spent showing his students how to not end up in this helpless position in the first place.

Of course, not having attended his class, I don't know what he's up to... maybe he has a larger plan.

Like you said, pak sau with the bong side is hard to pull off with a skilled opponent (IMHO the only scenario worth training for). It depends entirely on taking his left hand (assuming right hand bong) out of play either with a hard pin or with a deep angle to the left.


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## geezer (Mar 20, 2017)

If we are to just talk technique, more reliable choices are:

 1. initiating _pak-sau_ from the f_ook-sau _side while pressing forward so that your forearm also functions as a _lan-sau, _jamming into and unbalancing your opponent and effectively controlling _both _your opponent's arms with one of yours while at the same time freeing arm the other to attack.

Here is this version being shown by a guy originally from the Augustine Fong school. (Not my lineage, but it looks pretty much the same) Check out 1:30 -2:00:






2. Alternatively, you may _pak_ or _lap_ from the _bong_ side if you angle a bit to the side while pressing forward so that your _bong-sau _bends and functions as a _lan-sau_ and pins both your opponent's arms, freeing up your other arm to strike.

Here are two guys (not from my assn.) doing pretty much what I'm talking about here at 3:00 -4:00:





The principles are very simple. _Use constant forward pressure_ to move in, _take your opponent's center_ and  and _control his two arms with one_ of your own. Then _lat sau jik chung!_ --the hand that is free goes forward and strikes.


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## Cephalopod (Mar 20, 2017)

geezer said:


> If we are to just talk technique, more reliable choices are:
> 
> 1. initiating _pak-sau_ from the f_ook-sau _side while pressing forward so that your forearm also functions as a _lan-sau, _jamming into and unbalancing your opponent and effectively controlling _both _your opponent's arms with one of yours while at the same time freeing arm the other to attack.
> 
> ...



Option #2 as shown in the video is a combination of what I meant by a hard pin and a deep angle to the left. Both ideas together might not be necessary if you catch your opponent his left arm being rigid. If he's fighting against your forward pressure you can achieve a momentary hard 'pin' without his arms actually touching each other.

Option #1 is generally much safer. In a brief (and I do mean brief) survey of videos by said instructor, including one where he's rolling with Ip Chun, he goes for pak sao on the bong side dozens of times but not once did I see him go for a pak sao on the fuk side. Strange.


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