# Chinese Wushu Association Duan levels



## Xue Sheng (Dec 8, 2008)

Frankly the whole thing is a bit silly to me but I thought some might be interested in this.



> Symbol: Duan Wei (level)
> 
> Beginning Level:
> So-called basic duans for students with some years of experience.
> ...


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## oxy (Dec 8, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> Frankly the whole thing is a bit silly to me but I thought some might be interested in this.



What I found interesting in that article was that Dan rankings were introduced by Honinbo Dosaku to weiqi because the previous method of ranking was vague...

Maybe the point is that the issue of skill->rank is inherently vague and any list of criteria too finely detailed is a false accuracy.

Anyway, I thought "qing" would mean "green", as in "fresh", not outright "blue". But I don't know much Chinese outside of vernacular Cantonese.


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## TaiChiTJ (Apr 10, 2013)

So here are two person forms that are part of this Duan Wei system under Yang Tai Chi. There are six of them shown. Interesting.


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## TaiChiTJ (Apr 11, 2013)

The Duan system also applies to Sanda.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 11, 2013)

The Duan system on mainland applies to all things Wushu.... at least to those who want to participate in it that is....


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## Argus (Apr 11, 2013)

This Chinese Wushu Association has little to do with Traditional Chinese Martial arts, I assume?

Edit: To clarify, this association deals with modern sportive wushu, and not TCMA, right?


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 11, 2013)

It has something to do with traditional Chinese martial arts if they decide to follow it but usually no, and I am not a big fan it it either. The biggest thing I see from TCMA is they occasionally award a long time TCMA guy a rank to help the Chinese Wushu Association with its credibility


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## TaiChiTJ (Apr 14, 2013)

Thanks Xue Sheng for bringing it to our attention. So I did a google search for english versions of these documents they have created. Nada. 

Why? seems to me if they want american wushu players to be in on this stuff, they would have at least some materials available in english. Not sure I get that.


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## Thunderfist (Apr 15, 2013)

TaiChiTJ said:


> Thanks Xue Sheng for bringing it to our attention. So I did a google search for english versions of these documents they have created. Nada.
> 
> Why? seems to me if they want american wushu players to be in on this stuff, they would have at least some materials available in english. Not sure I get that.



Hey man, try this link: http://news.at0086.com/Chinese-martial-arts/General-Introduction-of-Chinese-Wushu-Duan-System.html

And yes, it's debatable how much the Wushu Association want overseas students participating in their system. From the little I've read on the internet, it seems as though on the one hand they want the international recognition and the cash, but on the other hand they're guarding the higher ranks and keeping them for Chinese nationals. This is conjecture on my part, by the way, but I assume that their is a mixture of opinions within the Wushu Association.

I have no real problem with Wushu as such (live and let live, all that) but like a lot of kung fu men I do have reservations about the distinctly non-martial flavour it has. That being said, I don't particularly dislike the idea of a duan system - I practised for almost 20 years without one before I ended up adopting one. Nothing changed - well, students were slightly clearer where their skill level in relation to one another lay. That's about it.

Also, the Wiki article fails to mention that Duan rankings existed in China (just not widespread or standardised) prior to the Wushu Association's system being created in the 90's. For one, the Shaolin temple has a ranking system based around coloured and black sashes, I believe? Not sure how often it's used.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 15, 2013)

Thunderfist said:


> it seems as though on the one hand they want the international recognition and the cash, but on the other hand they're guarding the higher ranks and keeping them for Chinese nationals. This is conjecture on my part, by the way, but I assume that their is a mixture of opinions within the Wushu Association.



And it is likely not far off the truth, westerners are not always taken seriously beyond the money they bring to the table in CMA in China



Thunderfist said:


> I have no real problem with Wushu as such (live and let live, all that) but like a lot of kung fu men I do have reservations about the distinctly non-martial flavour it has. That being said, I don't particularly dislike the idea of a duan system - I practised for almost 20 years without one before I ended up adopting one. Nothing changed - well, students were slightly clearer where their skill level in relation to one another lay. That's about it.



Wushu us actually the correct word for Chinese martial arts, Kung fu was a misunderstanding on the part of those that started using the word outside of China. Kung Fu means hard work and you need Kung Fu to be good at Wushu. Now what I call Modern or Sport Wushu, that is where you get into the purely performance stuff. And I have nothing against it either, other than some of the real unsafe practices that are currently going on in Chinese Wushu that has been injuring its practitioners, other than that is is most certainly a high level of athleticism and it also includes Sports Sanda so there is some actual fighting there too. 



Thunderfist said:


> Also, the Wiki article fails to mention that Duan rankings existed in China (just not widespread or standardised) prior to the Wushu Association's system being created in the 90's. For one, the Shaolin temple has a ranking system based around coloured and black sashes, I believe? Not sure how often it's used.



Yeah, go to any park in any major city in China and likely the majority of the people there don't much care about the duan system. Heck I doubt many of those that carry around the high level Duan ranks that they were awarded for years of TCMA much care either.


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## Napitenkah (Jul 11, 2013)

> Symbol: Duan Wei (level)
> Beginning Level:
> So-called basic duans for students with some years of experience.
> 1. Qingyingyi duan: Blue Eagle
> ...




So ying is Eagle, hu is tiger, and long is Dragon?
I know the yi, er, san, si, wu, liu, qi, ba, jiu,  are counting.
I can count to 10 verbally in chinese, or more specifically mandarin.
Why is it silly?


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## colemcm (Jul 11, 2013)

The Yang family has a similar system, except it replaces "Blue" with "Copper".
http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/association/ranking/index.php

I can't say I'm a big fan of ranking systems.  Although, I can definitely understand the desire to control who officially represents an art.


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## clfsean (Jul 11, 2013)

colemcm said:


> I can't say I'm a big fan of ranking systems.  Although, I can definitely understand the desire to control who officially represents an art.



Yeah... like it did here with the "Soke Councils" & related pap?? It's a way of of the PRC bringing the biggest MA money makers in line. The bigger the school/style that jumps in line, the more the gov't knows what's going on with the student body (foreign) & will be able to start "charging" for their duanwei stuff. 

I'm a big fan of... "Oh you got that?? Ok, here's this..." training. That's how my last sifu was & my current sifu was until he opened a public school. My last sifu wasn't concerned with lots of people, so his way worked for us. My current teacher is going big, people want to see rewards, not just get something new when they've progressed to the point of something new. 

So... right there with you on the general premise.


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## colemcm (Jul 11, 2013)

Even beyond the financial concerns, I can understand the Yang family wanting to be able to exert some type of control over who can legitimately say they're Yang style.  There are a lot of people "teaching" Yang style who really don't know anything outside of the form and maybe some basic tui shou.  

My Sigung used to tell my Sifu that tai Chi would never die because too few people practiced, but too many people would surely drag it down.  There's truth in this.


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## blindsage (Jul 12, 2013)

There are also a lot of people teaching legitimate Yang style that the Yang family don't like or want to acknowledge. (It's my understanding that the family doesn't even acknowledge or teach the Sanshou two man set). That's one of the problems with "legitimizing".  Who decides what's legitimate isn't always the sole or best decider.  My sifu also has an extensive background in Aikido and one his main teacher's was a student of O Sensei, but because of politics that teacher isn't even acknowledge by the main organization anymore.


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## colemcm (Jul 12, 2013)

Exactly so.  The politics of it are the most frustrating part.  People that have more skill are expected to hide their skill level in order to save face for people who are higher generation.

As far as the sanshou set goes, I'm not exactly sure whether that's accurate or not.  I just don't know.  My Sigung taught it to my Sifu, who in turn taught it to me, but neither of them liked it.  There was something to learn from it, but they felt it also taught bad habits.  So if the family doesn't involve itself with the form, it would be difficult to say exactly why.


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## mograph (Jul 12, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> And it is likely not far off the truth, westerners are not always taken seriously beyond the money they bring to the table in CMA in China.


... and as long as some of us westerners expect fast results for little work, or think of TCMA skill as "magic", this situation will not change.

Forgive the rant ... it was _not_ aimed at members of this forum.


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## clfsean (Jul 12, 2013)

mograph said:


> ... and as long as some of us westerners expect fast results for little work, or think of TCMA skill as "magic", this situation will not change.
> 
> Forgive the rant ... it was _not_ aimed at members of this forum.



I'm sure there are some people who read this forum, member or no, needed to be reminded of that. Good on ya...


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## colemcm (Jul 12, 2013)

If that was all there was to it, I'd fully agree.  It's not that simple though.  I've dealt with racism from quite a few Chinese.  I was fortunate enough to have a Sifu that refused to bow down to people telling him who he should be allowed to teach, but he was approached by multiple people who tried to convince him not to seriously teach me.  They were fine with me paying dues and learning the form, but were against him formally accepting me as his student and training me intensely.  When he became ill, he asked me to take over teaching the class.  However, after he passed, they made it abundantly clear that I wasn't so welcome; even going so far as to deny that I was his disciple.

This isn't to say that all Chinese are racist.  The majority of people appreciated my contribution to the class and acknowledged my position as his student, but it's pointless to pretend that the fault lies fully on one side.  I understand where the racism comes from and I won't say that it's entirely undeserved, but overcoming it is going to take effort on both sides.


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## Napitenkah (Jul 13, 2013)

I imagine, in china, chinese restaurants and chinese martial art schools have a lot of competition with each other, as there are probably a lot of them.
So they may be real sensitive about how something looks.
If chinese customers go in to a chinese restaurant in china, and see the owner is not chinese, they are probably going to wonder why, and there will be talk and questions. The same with a TCMA school.
If I went into chinese martial art school in china, and the head instructor was not chinese, I would have pause.
It wouldn't matter in america, but if I went all the way to china to get martial art training, I want it from &#40657;&#26332;&#30707;&#39118; not John Wesley. [Made up names]
As I see it, Traditional chinese martial arts are magic.
But magic is probably the hardest thing in life for people to utilize.
I mean, how many people even can concieve of chi, let alone can use it.


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## clfsean (Jul 14, 2013)

Napitenkah said:


> I imagine, in china, chinese restaurants and chinese martial art schools have a lot of competition with each other, as there are probably a lot of them.
> So they may be real sensitive about how something looks.
> If chinese customers go in to a chinese restaurant in china, and see the owner is not chinese, they are probably going to wonder why, and there will be talk and questions. The same with a TCMA school.
> If I went into chinese martial art school in china, and the head instructor was not chinese, I would have pause.
> ...



There is no magic in TCMA. There are only basic techniques done very very well. There are only basic principles performed very very well. 

If anybody tells you different, run in the other direction.


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## mograph (Jul 14, 2013)

Napitenkah said:


> As I see it, Traditional chinese martial arts are magic.
> But magic is probably the hardest thing in life for people to utilize.
> I mean, how many people even can concieve of chi, let alone can use it.


Chi is a word for _whatever makes natural processes happen_.

Simplistically, of course:
What makes us move? Muscles change shape.
What makes them change shape? Electrochemical reactions sent from the brain through the somatic nervous system.
What makes electrochemical reactions happen? Call it Fred, call it Zip, call it Chi, call it Prana. Bio-energy? Whatever.

(The word is irrelevant except to facilitate communication through consensual validation.)

It only _seems_ like magic because we are so out of touch with our bodies and how their functions _feel_. If we get in touch with Qigong and what it _feels_ like (slowly, gently) we'll see that it's not magic.

Chi is no more magical than being alive is. Some practitioners demonstrate chi to make money, to intimidate us, but the humble demonstrate it to show how possible it is, effectively saying "look, even I can do this!" But that's Chi talk. As for TCMA, Chi may or may not be an explicit component of a system. 

As for magic (again), it's only magic to someone who places himself in an "I'm not worthy, you're a wizard-magician-Jedi" position. You can see why, for a practitioner who uses TCMA techniques every day, such an attitude might mark the believer in magic as a bit of a rube, not worthy of much respect. 
... because he'll never be a _colleague_, on the same path. So the practitioner puts on a show and saves the real instruction for those who don't believe it's magic.

As long as we believe something is magic, we'll never be good at it. In order to be good at it, we have to make the paradigm shift that _it is not magic_.

To put it another way, if we're in the film business and want to work with Steven Spielberg, and we want him to respect our opinion, we have to think of him as a _respected colleague_, not a celebrity-god-figure. See the mental paradigm shift?


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## blindsage (Jul 15, 2013)

If I went to China and the instructor of a school was not Chinese, and there were a bunch of Chinese students, my first thought would be "Whoa, weird," and then I would assume he or she was either really, really good, or running a really good scam.  If he/she was as good as I assumed he/she must be in order to be the instructor at a school in China, then I would be really interested in studying with them.  Skill is skill, you either want to learn it or you don't, from whatever source it comes from.  If you need a Chinese instructor to teach you kung-fu, in China or not, you're probably missing the point.


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## Napitenkah (Jul 15, 2013)

mograph said:


> Chi is a word for whatever makes natural processes happen.
> Simplistically, of course:
> What makes us move? Muscles change shape.
> What makes them change shape? Electrochemical reactions sent from the brain through the somatic nervous system.
> ...


I understand that perspective and the apparently negative associations with the word Magic.
If I look at it from the common definition of magic, then the word doesn't fit with how I am using it, because it does connote a sense of this thing beyond understanding.
But I use it because it often is beyond people's mental paradigms and understanding. This thing which is a natural part of living beings. 
If we remain solid on what the word magic can mean, that it is a roadblock to growth, then it cannot be used, but I see the word as the first stage indicator to understanding.
If I see a martial art demonstration for the first time, I may be like, "How did they do that?"
I would have had that magical fascination with it. But that doesn't mean I am going to stay in that state, I can move on and learn more. 
Going by my own experience, having that initial magical fascination has not arrested my growth in whatever art.
When I first saw someone play the guitar, I thought it was magic, I wondered if I could ever play like that. When I was 10, now I can play like breathing. When I first saw Michael hedges play the way he did, it was magic to me, and I wondered if I could ever play like that. Now I can. 
When I would see a Spielberg movie, like Jaws, or ET, when I was a kid, I thought it was scary magic. Now I do make my own films, not professionally, but that doesn't matter to me, just that I can create my own magic.
When I first got into martial arts, it was magic, and I wondered if I could ever do it like what I would see. But this keeps evolving. Now, if I see someone do an incredible kick, or an amazing wushu display, it is magic, and it inspires me to find out and be able to do it. It does not arrest my development.
Chi is a word, and what is behind it just is. You don't have to learn it or even be able to talk about it to know how to utilize it. I knew it before I knew how to talk about it.
But cultures have come up with ways to talk about it. The chinese, among others, have put centuries of erudition into what it is and how it works. They don't describe it as magic, but something that already is in everyone, and how to realize that. They talk about polarities and meridian lines and the connections, among many other aspects. They talk about the difference between western medical perspective and eastern medical perspective.
They have come up with ways to show people, that have become accustomed to perceiving things only mentally, how to utilize chi.
I understand like, the wushu Duan levels, some people think it is silly. 
I know if someone said to me, "I can teach you this martial art, I don't give belts, certificates, rank, or uniforms, I will just teach you everything I know of this TCMA and that will be that."
I would be fine with that. Because just to be able to learn and do that, would be magic enough for me.
All the toys in the long run, don't mean anything. They don't mean anything if you forget what it was you got them for. 
If I got a belt or trophy for doing a form well, if I forget the form later, what does the trophy mean.
Of course in a longer timeline, the physical aspects of the martial art will be lost, when the body dies. So what will be kept then?
So in the short run, I enjoy the toys too. I like the belts and uniforms, and certificates, and still I know they are not significant, in the long run.
A lot of instructors know that there are all kinds of students. Some may need the motivational magic of a higher belt rank, of reaching another Duan level.
I don't need that stuff, but it doesn't bother me either.
Just for the record though, no one has ever told me martial arts were magic. If you think about it, it serves them no purpose to do so, if they intend to teach you it for money.
Only if they have no intention of teaching you.


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## Napitenkah (Jul 15, 2013)

blindsage said:


> If I went to China and the instructor of a school was not Chinese, and there were a bunch of Chinese students, my first thought would be "Whoa, weird," and then I would assume he or she was either really, really good, or running a really good scam.  If he/she was as good as I assumed he/she must be in order to be the instructor at a school in China, then I would be really interested in studying with them.  Skill is skill, you either want to learn it or you don't, from whatever source it comes from.  If you need a Chinese instructor to teach you kung-fu, in China or not, you're probably missing the point.



Well, the point is not what I am really focusing on, but different angles, so I don't get stuck pushing a particular point.

I know in reality, if I went to china, and I found a really good non-Chinese instructor, I wouldn't even flinch.


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## mograph (Jul 15, 2013)

Napitenkah said:


> I understand that perspective and the apparently negative associations with the word Magic.


You know, I thought that our respective interpretations of "magic" might need to be clarified. Fair enough. 

Thanks!


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## colemcm (Jul 15, 2013)

That's the problem with language; any given word actually means something.  The majority of people understand the word "magic" to mean a supernatural force that exists beyond human understanding.  The don't usually think of it being another word for "fascination". 

Of course, you're free to use whatever words you like.  However, I suspect that you'll encounter a lot of scenarios where you have to delineate from the subject of the thread in order to explain what your definition of a word is.  It might be more respectful to the OP to simply use another word that better explains your point or preempt any misunderstandings by including an explanation.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 15, 2013)

Much the problem with communication via typing in a web forum....much is left to interpretation and ones own definition of words that may not be the excepted dictionary definition


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## TaiChiTJ (Jul 17, 2013)

The June issue of Kung Fu Tai Chi magazine has an article on the ranking system titled:

"Reassessing Shaolinquan A look at the Wushu Ranking System Program for Shaolinquan"

The article starts out describing the system's Blue, Silver and Gold Eagle, Tiger and Dragon ranks. It also says:
"in addition there is a preliminary Duanwei (equivalent to a white belt in other martial arts) which has three sublevels and later was determined to be represented by a Panda". 

So a student can be a blue silver or gold panda. The rest of the article focuses on the Shaolin forms, issues, etc. 

BTW - There seems to be alot of recent questions about Shaolin and the temple on MT. This June issue has several articles about that, including an interview with the abbot, Venerable Shi Yongxin.


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## clfsean (Jul 17, 2013)

TaiChiTJ said:


> The June issue of Kung Fu Tai Chi magazine has an article on the ranking system titled:
> 
> "Reassessing Shaolinquan A look at the Wushu Ranking System Program for Shaolinquan"
> 
> ...



Yeah I read that. I helped me to remember why I lost interest in Songshan Shaolin. A few years back, there was a new form created for competition called remarkably "Shaolin Compulsory", just like PRC Wushu compulsories. Between that & all the other goodness that Shi Yong Xin has brought in... nothing for me to see from there.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 17, 2013)

clfsean said:


> Yeah I read that. I helped me to remember why I lost interest in Songshan Shaolin. A few years back, there was a new form created for competition called remarkably "Shaolin Compulsory", just like PRC Wushu compulsories. Between that & all the other goodness that Shi Yong Xin has brought in... nothing for me to see from there.



I am waiting for the Wudang Compulsory and sadly I would not be surprised if at some point there was not a Chen Compulsory as well... but I doubt it will show up until the 19th generation is no longer in control


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 17, 2013)

colemcm said:


> The Yang family has a similar system, except it replaces "Blue" with "Copper".
> http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/association/ranking/index.php
> 
> I can't say I'm a big fan of ranking systems.  Although, I can definitely understand the desire to control who officially represents an art.



In my opinion the Yang family ranking system is more about control for purposes of money than anything else and I won't tell you what my sifu said about it, suffice to say it was not a positive comment


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## Napitenkah (Jul 21, 2013)

colemcm said:


> That's the problem with language; any given word actually means something.  The majority of people understand the word "magic" to mean a supernatural force that exists beyond human understanding.  The don't usually think of it being another word for "fascination".
> 
> Of course, you're free to use whatever words you like.  However, I suspect that you'll encounter a lot of scenarios where you have to delineate from the subject of the thread in order to explain what your definition of a word is.  It might be more respectful to the OP to simply use another word that better explains your point or preempt any misunderstandings by including an explanation.





No, I see a lot of scenarios of people feeling like they need to correct what they believe, with no ambiquity, is wrong. In which case I try to reach a better level of understanding.
Which seldom has occured here.
Like you misaligned what I said as using magic as another word for fascination. 
So now I have to explain to you.
I used the word exactly as the defintion, I just interpreted it in a positive light, while others primarily have negative connotations with the word.
Magical fascination is seeing it as a supernatural force beyond human understanding.
The negative interpretation is the person will stay in that state of awareness, and not grow, I say you can, and I have done so, in my own experience.
And the added statement of being disrespectful to the OP.
OP: "Frankly the whole thing is a bit silly to me but I thought some might be interested in this."
I replied: "So ying is Eagle, hu is tiger, and long is Dragon?
I know the yi, er, san, si, wu, liu, qi, ba, jiu, are counting.
I can count to 10 verbally in chinese, or more specifically mandarin.
Why is it silly?"
*No one replied. No one.
*
It wasn't until someone stated:


> ... and as long as some of us westerners expect fast results for little work, or think of TCMA skill as "magic", this situation will not change.


I responded to that, and that brought out several people to correct me, based on their negative interpretations of magic.
So overall, with people only responding when they think something is wrong, and feeling like they should correct it, and then when I reply, people misinterpreting that and insisting I am going off topic and disrespecting the OP, this is one example of how this makes the forum, not a friendly martial arts community. Which I already mentioned to the Admin.
The OP used excepted in sentence for what he should have used accepted for. 
While he was trying to say, 





> Much the problem with communication via typing in a web forum....much is left to interpretation and ones own definition of words that may not be the excepted dictionary definition


So it isn't just you of course, Colemcm, this is the general vibe of the place, which even though you are a white belt, you fit right in. 

This whole thing of people feeling they are the guardians of a martial art, and have to correct people.

That is usually a good sign to me, that they are not eternally growing martial artists, but people that are stuck in thinking they know what is right and wrong about the Martial Art.

I will go to a Kwoon for a sifu, not a web forum. People here know some things about Traditional Chinese martial arts, but no one has gotten my trust in their advice and corrections.


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## colemcm (Jul 21, 2013)

Napitankah,

I think you're taking offense where none was intended.  I don't have any personal issue with you.  My advice was to help you more clearly communicate with the other people on this board.

As far as the issue of disrespect goes, eight or nine out of the total thirty-three posts in this thread have been about your use of the word "magic".  That much effort going to discussing something besides the Duan system is what I think is slightly disrespectful to the OP.

I will say that I believe that people SHOULD be the guardians of their art.  They should have pride in what they've learned and should actively try to correct people that they think misrepresent their art.  To do otherwise is wrong.  I suspect that it was exactly this issue that caused people to react to your magic comment the way they did.  I can't speak for them, but I can say for myself that I think the mystification of the martial arts makes it more difficult for people to learn and undermines the efforts of future generations of martial artists.


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## colemcm (Jul 21, 2013)

Xue,

I don't know enough about their organization to say whether that's the case.  With the number of people as there are making money off of THEIR name, I can't say I fault them for trying to get some of the action, though.  They're martial artists, not Buddhist monks.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 22, 2013)

colemcm said:


> Xue,
> 
> I don't know enough about their organization to say whether that's the case.  With the number of people as there are making money off of THEIR name, I can't say I fault them for trying to get some of the action, though.  They're martial artists, not Buddhist monks.




I'm sorry but I agree with my shifu on the matter, he was a student of Tung Ying Chieh and Tung Ying Chieh was a student of Yang Chengfu... The Yang family is all about money these days and not so much about Yang Taijiquan.

And my shifu us not a Buddhist either and he has no ranking system and charges next to nothing.

However Shaolin is allegedly full of Buddhist who charge exuberant sums of money.... so Buddhist monk is not necessarily the best example


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## clfsean (Jul 22, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> However Shaolin is allegedly full of Buddhist who charge exuberant sums of money.... so Buddhist monk is not necessarily the best example




Whhhhaaaaaa?????? :s125:


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 22, 2013)

clfsean said:


> Whhhhaaaaaa?????? :s125:



There there....don't cry..... I'm sure they teach good stuff..it just can be a bit on the expensive side...with lots of jumping and spinning and leaping


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## colemcm (Jul 22, 2013)

Like I said, I'm not familiar with the family and their practices.  So I can't really comment. 

My Sifu was a student of Leung King Yu, who was a student of Chen Wei Ming.  He donated all of his fees (a whopping $15/month per person) to a class fund that we used for trips and banquets.  His interest was solely on sharing authentic Yang style Tai Chi, not on making money.  Even then, he never begrudged anyone for charging their students.  He even encouraged me to charge my students when I had a class, which is something I never did.  (I find it difficult to charge for something that didn't pay much for.  I accepted gifts because it's rude not to, but never asked for anything.)  My monk comment was more a way of saying that they're not obligated to operate under some vow of poverty.

Personally, I would hesitate to even call Shaolin members monks anymore.  It's a business.


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## colemcm (Jul 22, 2013)

Getting back to ranking systems, if they can be implemented with the idea that you're establishing a system to authenticate and transmit a purer form of the art, then I think it's great.

If it's only about making money, it's not so great, but is understandable.


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## TaiChiTJ (Jul 22, 2013)

Xue Sheng, looks like a Chen master has been awarded the coveted 9th Duan level, the top most of the top most. He has truly arrived. As the article elucidates: 
There are also waiting times required between each Duan, for example, one has to wait at least six years before being eligible to apply for a rank promotion from the 6th Level to the 7th Level. With that, most masters who earn the highest honor of the 9th Duan have at least 50 years of experience in practicing the art and most of them earn their title in their 70&#8217;s or later.
http://www.examiner.com/article/grandmaster-chen-zhenglei-a-new-9th-duan-tai-chi-master

Here is one of the Chen Style DuanWei's, I think. 
http://play.kendincos.us/109014/Wpt...duanwei-applications-1-2-3-3-chen-xiaowa.html

Couple of weeks ago I spent alot of time doing phrase searches on this duan wei thing. Using different spellings, duanwei or duan wei, etc.

 The only commercial site selling the duanwei instructional materials (available only in Chinese language, of course) that I could find was this one: 

Its a beautifully organized site, by the way, and notice the Duan Wei stuff is placed ahead of all the other DVD offerings ( hmm... some kind of message in that, maybe?)
http://www.kungfudirect.com/


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 22, 2013)

Yeah I know the Chinese government hands them out to certain martial artists to gain legitimacy. However I do not think Chen Zhengei uses the duan system in his schools. However I do think some of his students pursue duan ranking to impress the west when they go teach there. I believe they gave one to Di Gouyong and a few other CMA guys (there are a few Bagua guys whose names I can't remember at the moment) in China as well but like Chen Zhenglei they did not pursue the ranking the PRC told them they were giving it to them, show up for the ceremony....and it is all to gain legitimacy for the duan system.


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## quanfa88 (Jan 12, 2017)

Xue Sheng said:


> Frankly the whole thing is a bit silly to me but I thought some might be interested in this.


Yeah, I found that too.  Thanks again!


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## quanfa88 (Jan 12, 2017)

TaiChiTJ said:


> Xue Sheng, looks like a Chen master has been awarded the coveted 9th Duan level, the top most of the top most. He has truly arrived. As the article elucidates:
> There are also waiting times required between each Duan, for example, one has to wait at least six years before being eligible to apply for a rank promotion from the 6th Level to the 7th Level. With that, most masters who earn the highest honor of the 9th Duan have at least 50 years of experience in practicing the art and most of them earn their title in their 70&#8217;s or later.
> http://www.examiner.com/article/grandmaster-chen-zhenglei-a-new-9th-duan-tai-chi-master
> 
> ...


Wow, you really did your research on this.  Thanks again.  I understand Chinese, so the language is not a problem.


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## DanT (Jan 14, 2017)

Xue Sheng said:


> Frankly the whole thing is a bit silly to me but I thought some might be interested in this.


I just wanna add that my Sifu, although not a "wushu" man, holds 9th Duan awarded to him by the world wushu federation or something like that. I'll double check the name of the org. When I'm at the club today. I know he's a certified sanshou judge and head of the Canadian kuoshu federation so maybe that's why they gave him a wushu rank?


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