# Wong Jack Man and Bruce Lees Private Match



## Jade Dragon Alaska (Aug 4, 2011)

Wong Jack Man and Bruce Lees Private Match 

"He really wanted to kill me," says Wong. Most of what he used against Lee, says Wong, was defensive. Wong says he parried Lees kicks with his legs while using his hand and arms to protect his head and torso, only occasionally delivering a stinging blow to Lees head or body. 

Wong Jack Man had struck Bruce Lee in the back of the head. The point position for the palm chop after the 'gold chick single stand' is fatal and causes death sooner or later when sharply struck. I believe BL got this kind of injury and his bruise in his head, which led him to his death. Perhaps it was caused by WJM's palm strike. 

William Chens memory of the fight are more in alignment with Wongs than Lees. On the question of duration, for example, Chen, as Wong, recalls the fight continuing for "20 or 25 minutes." He also said neither man was knocked down. "Certainly," he says, "Wong was not brought to the floor and pounded into a state of demoralization." Ming Lum, a San Francisco martial arts promoter, said that he didn't attend the fight because he was a friend of both Lee and Wong. Lum saw Wong the very next day at the Jackson Cafe, and Lum says the only evidence he saw of the fight was a scratch above one eye, a scratch Wong said he got when Lee went for his eyes as he extended his arm for the opening handshake. 


"BRUCE LEES TOUGHEST FIGHT, by Michael Dorgan (from Official Karate, July 1980) 

Considering the skill of the opponents and the complete absence of referees, rules, and safety equipment, it was one hell of a fight that took place that day in December. It may have been the most savagely elegant exhibition of unarmed combat of the century. Yet, at a time when top fighters tend to display their skills only in huge closed-circuited arenas, this battle was fought in virtual secrecy behind locked doors. And at a time when millions of dollars can ride on the outcome of a championship fight, these champions of another sort competed not for money, but for more personal and passionate reasons. The time was late winter, 1964; the setting was a small kung fu school in Oakland, California. Poised at the center of the room, with approximately 140 pounds packed tightly on his 57" frame, was the operator of the school, a 24-year old martial artist of Chinese ancestry but American birth who, within a few years, would skyrocket to international attention as a combination fighter/film star. A few years after that, at age 32, he would die under mysterious circumstances. His name, of course, was Bruce Lee. Also poised in the center of the room was another martial artist. Taller but lighter, with his 135 pounds stretched thinly over 510", this fighter was also 24 and also of Chinese descent. Born in Hong Kong and reared in the south of mainland China, he had only recently arrived in San Franciscos teeming Chinatown, just across the bay from Oakland. Though over the next 15 years he would become widely known in martial arts circles and would train some of Americas top martial artists, he would retain a near disdain for publicity and the commercialization of his art, and consequently would remain unknown to the general public. His name: Wong Jack Man. 

What happened after the fighters approached the center of the room has become a chapter of Chinatowns "wild history," that branch of Chinese history usually anchored in fact but always richly embellished by fantasy, a history that tells much about a time and place with little thats reliable about any particular incident. Exactly how the fight proceeded and just who won are still matters of controversy, and will likely remain so. But from the few available firsthand accounts and other evidence, it is possible to piece together a reasonably reliable picture that reveals two overriding truths. First, considering the skill of the opponents and the complete absence of referees, rules, and safety equipment, it was one hell of a fight that took place that day in December. And second, Bruce Lee, who was soon to rival Mao Tse Tung as the worlds most famous Chinese personality, was dramatically affected by the fight, perhaps fatally so. 

Due to the human desire to be known as an eye witness to a famous event, it is easier to obtain firsthand accounts of the fight from persons who were not there than from those who were. As to how many persons actually viewed the contest, even that is a point of dispute. Bruce Lees wife Linda recalls a total of 13 persons, including herself. But the only person that she identifies other than her husband and his associate James Lee, who died of cancer shortly before her husband died, is Wong Jack Man. Wong, meanwhile, remembers only seven persons being present, including the three Lees. Of the three persons other than the Lees and himself, only one, a tai chi teacher named William Chen (not to be confused with the William Chi Cheng Chen who teaches the art in New York), could be located. Chen recalls about 15 persons being present but can identify none other than Wong and the Lees. So except for a skimpy reference to the fight by Bruce Lee himself in a magazine interview, we are left with only three first hand accounts of the battle. They are accounts which vary widely. 

Linda Lee, in her book Bruce Lee: The Man Only I Knew, initially dismisses the fight as follows: "The two came out, bowed formally and then began to fight. Wong adopted a classic stance whereas Bruce, who at the time was still using his Wing Chun style, produced a series of straight punches. "Within a minute, Wongs men were trying to stop the fight as Bruce began to warm to his task. James Lee warned them to let the fight continue. A minute later, with Bruce continuing the attack in earnest, Wong began to backpedal as fast as he could. For an instant, indeed, the scrap threatened to degenerate into a farce as Wong actually turned and ran. But Bruce pounced on him like a springing leopard and brought him to the floor where he began pounding him into a state of demoralization. 

"Is that enough?" shouted Bruce. "Thats enough!" pleaded Wong in desperation. So the entire matter was just another quick triumph for the man who frequently boasted he could whip any man in the world. Or was it? Later in her book, Linda Lee hints that the fight may have amounted to more than the brief moment of violent diversion she had earlier described. 
"Bruces whole life was an evolving process - and this was never seen to greater effect than in his work with the martial arts," she begins. "The clash with Wong Jack Man metamorphosed his own personal expression of kung fu. Until this battle, he had largely been content to improvise and expand on his original Wing Chun style, but then he suddenly realized that although he had won comparatively easily, his performance had been neither crisp of efficient. The fight, he realized, ought to have ended within a few seconds of him striking the first blows - instead of which it had dragged on for three minutes. In addition, at the end, Bruce had felt unusually winded which proved to him he was far from perfect condition. So he began to dissect the fight, analyzing where he had gone wrong and seeking to find ways where he could have improved his performance. It did not take him long to realize that the basis of his fighting art, the Wing Chun style, was insufficient. It laid too much stress on hand techniques, had very few kicking techniques and was, essentially, partial." 

Still later in the book, Linda Lee adds: "The Wong Jack Man fight also caused Bruce to intensify his training methods. From that date, he began to seek out more and more sophisticated and exhaustive training methods. I shall try to explain these in greater detail later, but in general the new forms of training meant that Bruce was always doing something, always training some part of his body or keeping it in condition." 

Whether Bruce Lees intensified training was to his benefit or to his destruction is a matter to be discussed later. For now, merely let it be observed that the allegedly insignificant "scrap" described early by Linda Lee has now been identified by her as cause for her husband to intensify his training and serves as the pivotal reason for his abandoning the fighting style he had practiced religiously for more than 10 years. 

That the fight with Wong was the reason Lee quit, and then later repudiated the Wing Chun style, was confirmed by Lee himself in an interview with Black Belt. "Id gotten into a fight in San Francisco (a reference, no doubt, to the Bay Area rather than the city) with a Kung-Fu cat, and after a brief encounter the son-of-a-***** started to run. I chased him and, like a fool, kept punching him behind his head and back. Soon my fists began to swell from hitting his hard head. Right then I realized Wing Chun was not too practical and began to alter my way of fighting." 

For those who have difficulty believing that a quick if clumsy victory over a worthy opponent was sufficient reason for Lee to abandon a fighting style that had seen him through dozens of vicious street fights as a youth in Hong Kong, where his family had moved shortly after his birth in San Francisco, a more substantial reason for Lee to change styles can be found in the account of the fight given by Wong Jack Man. 

According to Wong, the battle began with him bowing and offering his hand to Lee in the traditional manner of opening a match. Lee, he say, responded by pretending to extend a friendly hand only to suddenly transform the hand into a four-pronged spear aimed at Wongs eyes. 

"That opening move," says Wong, "set the tone for Lees fight." Wing Chun has but three sets, the solo exercises which contain the full body of technique of any style, and one of those sets is devoted to deadly jabbing and gouging attacks directed primarily at the eyes and throat. "It was those techniques," say Wong, "which Lee used most." 

There were flurries of straight punches and repeated kicks at his groin, adds Wong, but mostly, relentlessly, there were those darting deadly finger tips trying to poke out his eyes or puncture his throat. And what he say he anticipated as serious but sportsmanly comparison of skill suddenly became an exercise in defending his life. 

Wong says that before the fight began Lee remarked, in reference to a mutual acquaintance who had helped instigate the match, "Youve been killed by your friend." Shortly after the bout commenced, he adds, he realized Lees words had been said in earnest. 

"He really wanted to kill me," says Wong. In contrast to Lees three Wing Chun sets, Wong, as the grand master of the Northern Shaolin style, knew dozens. But most of what he used against Lee, says Wong, was defensive. Wong says he parried Lees kicks with his legs while using his hand and arms to protect his head and torso, only occasionally delivering a stinging blow to Lees head or body. He fought defensively, explains Wong, in part because of Lees relentless aggressive strategy, and in part because he feared the consequences of responding in kind to Lees attempt to kill him. In pre-Revolutionary China, fights to the finish were often allowed by law, but Wong knew that in modern-day America, a crippling or killing blow, while winning a victory, might also win him a jail sentence. 

That, says Wong, is why he failed to deliver a devastating right-hand blow on any of the three occasions he had Lees head locked under his left arm. Instead, he says, he released his opponent each time, only to have an even more enraged Bruce Lee press on with his furious attack. "He would never say he lost until you killed him," says Wong. And despite his concern with the legal consequences, Wong says that killing Lee is something he began to consider. "I remember thinking, If he injures me, if he really hurts me, Ill have to kill him." 

But according to Wong, before that need arose, the fight had ended, due more to what Linda Lee described as Lees "unusually winded" condition than to a decisive blow by either opponent. "It had lasted," says Wong, "at least 20 minutes, maybe 25." 

Though William Chens recollections of the fight are more vague than the other two accounts, they are more in alignment with Wongs than Lees. On the question of duration, for example, Chen, like Wong, remembers the fight continuing for "20 or 25 minutes." Also, he cannot recall either man being knocked down. "Certainly," he says, "Wong was not brought to the floor and pounded into a state of demoralization." 

Regarding Wongs claim that three times he had Lees head locked under his arm, Chen says he can neither confirm or deny it. He remembers the fighters joining on several occasions, but he could not see very clearly what was happening at those moments. 

Chen describes the outcome of the battle as "a tie." He adds, however, that whereas an enraged Bruce Lee had charged Wong "like a mad bull," obviously intent upon doing him serious injury. Wong had displayed extraordinary restraint by never employing what were perhaps his most dangerous weapons - his devastating kicks. 

A principal difference between northern and southern Chinese fighting styles is that the northern styles give much more emphasis to kicking, and Northern Shaolin had armed Wong with kicks of blinding speeds and crushing power. But before the fight, recalls Chen, "Sifu Wong said he would not use his kicks; he thought they were too dangerous." And despite the dangerous developments that followed that pledge, Chen adds that Wong "kept his word." Though Chens recollections exhaust the firsthand accounts, there are further fragments of evidence to indicate how the fight ended. 

Ming Lum, who was then a San Francisco martial arts promoter, says he did not attend the fight because he was a friend of both Lee and Wong, and feared that a battle between them would end in serious injury, maybe even death. "Who," he asks, "would have stopped them?" But Lum did see Wong the very next day at the Jackson Cafe, where the young grand master earned his living as a waiter (he had, in fact, worked a full shift at the busy Chinatown restaurant the previous day before fighting Lee). And Lum says the only evidence he saw of the fight was a scratch above one eye, a scratch Wong says was inflicted when Lee went for his eyes as he extended his arm for the opening handshake. 

"Some people say Bruce Lee beat up Jack Man bad," note Lum. "But if he had, the man would not have been to work the next day." By Lums assessment, the fact that neither man suffered serious injury in a no-holds-barred battle indicates that both were "very, very good." Both men were no doubt, very, very, good. But Wong, after the fight, felt compelled to assert, boldly and publicly, that he was the better of the two. He did so, he says, only because Lee violated their agreement to not discuss the fight. 

According to Wong, immediately following the match Lee had asked that neither man discuss it. Discussion would lead to more argument over who had won, a matter which could never be resolved as there had been no judges. Wong said he agreed. 

But within a couple of weeks, he says, Lee violated the agreement by claiming in an interview that he had defeated an unnamed challenger. Though Lee had not identified Wong as the loser, Wong says it was obvious to all of Chinatown that Lee was speaking of Wong. It had already become common knowledge within the Chinese community that the two had fought. In response to Lees interview, Wong wrote a detailed description of the fight which concluded with an open invitation to Lee to meet him for a public bout if Lee was not satisfied with Wongs account. Wongs version of the fight, along with the challenge, was run as the top story on the front page of San Franciscos Chinese language Chinese Pacific Weekly. But Bruce Lee, despite his reputation for responding with fists of fury to the slightest provocation, remained silent. 

Now death has rendered the man forever silent. And the question of whether Wong presented Lee, who is considered by many to have been the worlds top martial artist, with the only defeat of his adult life will remain, among those concerned about such matters, forever a controversial one. Even those Bruce Lee fans who accepts the evidence as supportive of Wongs account of the fight may argue that the outcome would have been different had the two battled a few years after Lee had developed his own style, Jeet Kune Do. But while it is true that Jeet Kune Do provided Lee with a wider range of weapons, particularly kicks, it is also true that Wong continued to grow as a martial artist after the fight. Only after that battle, says Wong, did he develop tremendous chi powers from the practice of Tai Chi, Hsing I, and Pakua. 

Martial art styles can be divided roughly into two categories: external and internal. External styles, which are also called "hard" styles and which include such American favorites as Japanese karate and Korean taekwondo, rely primarily upon muscular strength, while internal or "soft" styles, such as Japanese Aikido and the three above-mentioned Chinese styles, cultivate a more mysterious energy called chi. 

Although everybody has chi, few people have much of it, and fewer still know how to express it. But according to the Chinese, this precious elixir can be cultivated and controlled through the exercises of the internal martial arts styles. 

Specifically, they say chi can be brewed in the tan tien, a spot about an inch below the navel. Once the tan tien is filled, the chi supposedly spills out into other parts of the body, where it is stored in the marrow of the bones. It is said that as a martial artist develops chi energy, his bones become hard, his sinews tough, is muscles supple and relaxed, which allow the chi to circulate freely through the body. 

Chi usually takes much longer to develop than muscular strength, but it is considered a much more formidable energy. In normal times it is said to serve as a source of extraordinary vitality and as a guardian against many diseases. And in battle, it is said to provide a person with awesome power and near invulnerability. 

Though Wong had been trained in the internal styles while still in China, up until the time he fought Lee he had concentrated mainly on the refinement of his elegantly athletic Northern Shaolin, which, like Lees Wing Chun, is an external style. Following the battle with Lee, Wong would train in the internal styles until he had developed such chi power that he can, according to Peter Ralston, a former student of Wong and the first non-Asian to win the Chinese Martial Arts World Championships in Taiwan, take a punch to any part of his body without injury or even discomfort. As for Wongs offensive capabilities, they have apparently never been tested. 

Regarding the question of how much Lee grew as a martial artist after the fight, Wong is convinced that the benefits to Lee from his homemade style were more than offset by the damage it did him. Wong even goes so far as to speculate that Jeet Kune Do may have caused Lees death. 

Most martial arts masters agree that just as serious training in a proper method can greatly improve ones health, strenuous and prolonged training in an improper method can destroy health. Often the health damage is attributed to improper breathing practices, and often the damage is to the brain. Special use of the breath is acknowledged by every martial arts style as a key element to developing power, though different styles have different breathing methods. Proper methods can be simply categorized as those which develop power while building health, and improper methods as those which either fail to build power or build it but at the expense of ones health. Though many of the ways in which breathing methods affect health remain mysterious, the methods themselves - at least the proper methods - have been empirically refined over many generations. Wongs Northern Shaolin, for example, can be traced back to the great Shaolin Temple of more than a thousand years ago, which is considered the source of Chinese martial arts. While the Wing Chun practiced by Lee until his fight with Wong also had a long period of development and refinement, the style he put together after the fight was a chop suey of many and varied ingredients. 

That Jeet Kune Do lacked the cohesion and harmony of a style in the traditional sense was something acknowledged by Lee himself, who preferred to call it a "sophisticated form of street fighting" rather than a style. After abandoning Wing Chin, Lee developed a disdain for all traditional styles, which he considered restrictive and ineffective. He even went so far as to place outside his school a mock tombstone that read: 
"In memory of a once fluid man crammed and distorted by the classical mess." It is grimly ironic that it would be Lee would be in need of a tombstone long before the man, trained by and loyal to the "classical mess," who was almost certainly his most formidable opponent. 

It cannot be proven, of course, that Lees fatal edema of the brain was caused by Jeet Kune Do, just as it could not be proven his death was brought on by any of the other rumored causes ranging from illicit drugs to excessive sex to blows on the head. Wong thinks, to serve as a caution to those who believe they can, by themselves, develop the knowledge it has taken others many generations of cumulative effort to acquire. 

Perhaps it is because he gives so much credit to those who came before him that Wongs voice is absent of boast when he says his art was superior to Lees. But while to him that is a matter of simple fact, Wong, aware that legends are larger than men, is not optimistic about ever being accepted as the winner of the fight. He says, however, that what people think regarding the outcome of the fight is less important to him than what they think provoked the battle in the first place. 

In Linda Lees account, which has been repeated in a number of Bruce Lee biographies, Wong is portrayed not only as a loser but also as a villian. According to Ms. Lee, Wong provoked the fight in an attempt to force her husband to stop teaching Kung Fu to Caucasians. 

After sketching a brief history of Chinese martial arts up to the Boxer Rebellion, she writes: "Since then - and the attitude is understandable - Chinese, particularly in America, have been reluctant to disclose these secrets to Caucasians. It became an unwritten law that the art should be taught only to Chinese. Bruce considered such thinking completely outmoded and when it was argued that white men, if taught the secrets, would use the art to injure the Chinese, he pointed out that if a white man really wanted to injure a Chinese, there were plenty of other ways he could do it. "However, Bruce soon found that at first his views were not shared by members of the Chinese community in San Francisco, particularly those in martial arts circles. Several months after he and James Lee had begun teaching, a kung fu expert called Wong Jack Man turned up at Bruces kwoon (school) on Broadway. Wong had just recently arrived in San Franciscos Chinatown from Hong Kong and was seeking to establish himself at the time, al l of his pupils being strictly pure Chinese. 

Three other Chinese accompanied Wong Jack Man who handed Bruce an ornate scroll which appears to have been an ultimatum from the San Francisco martial arts community. Presumably, if Bruce lost the challenge, he was either to close down his Institute or stop teaching Caucasians." 

So by Linda Lees account, her husband had suddenly found himself in a position no less heroic than of having to defend, possibly to the death, the right to teach Caucasians the ancient Chinese fighting secrets. It is a notion that Wong finds ridiculous. 


The reason he showed up at Lees school that day, says Wong, is because a mutual acquaintance had hand-delivered a note from Lee inviting him to fight. The note was sent, say Wong, after he had requested a public bout with Lee after Lee had boasted during a demonstration at a Chinatown theater that he could beat any martial artist in San Francisco and had issued an open challenge to fight anyone who thought he could prove him wrong. As for those in attendance at the fight, Wong says he only knew of few of them, and those barely. Certainly, he says, no group had come as formal representative of the San Francisco martial arts community. Wong attributes both Lees initial challenge and his response to the same emotion, to arrogance. "If I had it to do over," he says, " I wouldnt." But while admitting to youthful arrogance, Wong strongly contests Linda Lees allegation that he was guilty of trying to stop Bruce Lee from teaching Caucasians. 

It is true, say Wong, that most - but not all - of his students during his first years were teaching were Chinese. But that was true, he adds, only because few Americans outside of Chinese communities had even heard of kung fu. Americans who then knew anything at all of the martial arts most likely knew of Japanese judo or karate. They would not hear of kung fu until several years later, when it would be made famous by the dazzling choreography's of Bruce Lee. 

Far from attempting to keep kung fu secret and exclusive, Wong observes that his was the first school in San Franciscos Chinatown to operate with open doors. That the other kung fu schools then in existence conducted classes behind locked doors was due more to the instructors fears of being challenged, say Wong, than to a refusal to teach Caucasians. Once Caucasians became interested in kung fu, it would be Wong who would train some of the best of them, including Ralston and several other leading West Coast instructors. And all of these students of Wong who currently teaches at San Franciscos Fort Mason Center would be taught for a monthly fee amounting to a fraction of the hourly rate (in some cases $500) charged by the man who allegedly fought for the right to teach them. 

COMMENTARY 
Most JKD people think that Wing Chun is mainly about trapping when in fact trapping only makes up about 2 percent of the art and is only used if the opportunity creates itself. I can see no reason why JKD places non Wing Chun footwork with Wing Chun hands, something that defies the point of the Wing Chun elbow position and power generation in the first place. 

Bruce Lee, declared Wing Chun impractical after this match. Bruce's own account has him chasing after Wong hitting the back of his head etc and becoming unusually winded. For a start, why was he chasing after Wong in that manner? It's odd to use the Wing Chun punches and methods in a way they were never meant to be used and then complain they didn't work. 

Next, Bruce claimed the fight took three minutes. Three minutes of continuous aggressive fighting would take the wind out of most people. From Lee's own accounts of this fight, let alone Wong's, it is clear upon examination that he had a lot to learn and did not go about things in the right way, 'at the time of that fight'. 

Bruce Lee was so impressed with Wong Jack Man's skills that he wrote to WJM's teacher and requested lessons. GM Ma Kim Fung turned him away, But Bruce Lee found and convinced Shui Hon Sang, who was an older classmate of GM Ma. GM Shui taught BL at least two sets, Kung Lick Chuan and Jie Chuan (Jeet Kuan). 

There is a 8mm film of Bruce Lee doing Bei Shaolin #5 or attempting to perform BSL#5. He paid someone to film Wong Jack Man who was demonstrating BSL#5 and then BL learned from that film. Bruce Lee then had himself filmed doing the same set but from what I understand the quality was obviously not the same. 

If Bruce Lee won the fight as he claimed, then why did he adapt the fighting methods of the loser? Ever other martial artist studies the methods of the winner. 

' I must point out here that the true reason Bruce (who was my student when he lived in Culver City and I was chief instructor of martial arts at Loyola University) started Jeet Kune Do was because he was unable to achieve instructor rank in ANY form of martial art.....so he went out and took bits and pieces and created his own. 

I also have the first article he ever wrote for publication (for me when I was associate editor at Black Belt magazine). It was so poor we sent it back, an act that angered him to no end at that time. But once he moved here to get into movies and TV he realized he had no power ..... speed but no results. That's what he wanted from me. 
... 
There is an internal side to the martial arts....esp. the Chinese arts which later were streamlined by the Japanese who lost the sense of internal until ch'an came to Japan as zen and they saw it as the perfect paradox of internal skill and killing.......but it is not what most are being taught today. It all changed in the mid 60s when people outside the Asian communities began to learn about martial arts....then came the prostitution, phony rankings, made-up school names and everything else that makes true MA so difficult to find these days. b (Ven. Dr. An Tzu; Thich An Tri) ' 

By Dr. William Upton-Knittle (Dr. William Upton-Knittle, senior coordinator of the UCLA Office of Summer Sessions Advertising and Marketing, was invited by government officials of the People's Republic of China to help plan fund-raising for a project known as the Dr. Sun Yat-sen Victory Memorial.) 
From: http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/InternalArts/message/24 

Dr. William Upton-Knittle also taught the Developemental Psychology of the world renown Jean Piaget. He is also listed in Who's Who in America three times. We had a number of discussions about Bruce Lee, in the late 1990s. 

There was a strong Japanese influence in Bruce Lee, since his main sparring partner and closest friends was Taki Kimura. Taki Kimura, delivered the eulogy at Bruce Lee's funeral. Bruce Lee's style is called Jeet Kuen Do, Do, is a Japanese term for school, or path. Many people Jeet Kuen Do are unfamiliar with some of the higher level Japanese sparring methods, and assume Bruce Lee invented them, when introduced to them for the first time in Jeet Kuen Do. Even some Shotokan associations, at their higher levels, have some soft, and/or internal methods. 

"Bruce Lee, and thus JKD was heavily influenced by Western boxing and fencing. Although the backbone concepts (such as centerline, vertical punching, and forward pressure) come from Wing Chun, Lee stopped using the Wing Chun stances in favor of what he considered to be more fluid/flexible fencing and boxing stances." 

Most empty hand martial artists are unfamiliar with the boxing and fencing stances as applied to sparring, so they assume they are unique to Jeet Kuen Do, which is a mistake. " from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeet_Kune_Do 

Bruce Lee's martial background was not traditional Chinese Kung Fu, even his study under Wing Chun's Yip Man, was less than two years. Yip Man did not consider Bruce Lee a serious student. 

Advanced martial techniques and energies, are based on a continual regimen of training lasting decades. Bruce Lee never studied at any school long enough to take advantage of this. Bruce Lee ended up spending much time 'reinventing the wheel'. 

Any techniques in Bruce Lee's style were based on only his experience. Some have used Thai Boxing, and Filipino Martial Arts with Jeet Kun Do; but since there has never been any world class Martial Artist to have been produced by Jeet Kun Do alone, it is questionable whether any of Bruce Lee's self taught methods, are of any use to anyone else, except as basic self defense.


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## clfsean (Aug 5, 2011)

Where are you copy/pasting this from?? I don't mean this post & I mean everything you have posted so far.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 5, 2011)

clfsean said:


> Where are you copy/pasting this from?? I don't mean this post & I mean everything you have posted so far.



some of it was from his website.


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 5, 2011)

You should read the views of some o his students that saw it.

From their POV it was more like a guy shows up to challenge Bruce Lee
Bruce takes the challenge
The next thing you know Bruce is chasing the guy around 
Bruce eventually catches him and pins him
They guy gives up

Bruce has an epiphany
JKD is born

It all comes down to who you want to believe


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## clfsean (Aug 5, 2011)

Xue Sheng said:


> You should read the views of some o his students that saw it.
> 
> From their POV it was more like a guy shows up to challenge Bruce Lee
> Bruce takes the challenge
> ...



Or talk to some of the uncles in SF Chinatown #1 who were there... :angel:

Just saying...


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## Neijia (Mar 24, 2012)

Bruce Lee was a bit of a dick.  He didn't complete his training with Yip Man, then claimed he was a master once he got to America.  He went all out as small guys tend to do and his betters didn't want to kill him for it.  He's inspiring on many levels, but it was the 70's he was a star and died of drugs while banging some chick.  Death touch?  Yeah...Jimmy Hendrix must have had that too.  So did Janis Joplin.  I get it, he made films that we liked and he was the first and last martial artist in film who could demonstrate any believable emotion.  That said he did a great service promoting martial arts.  As to who won what challenge match?  I doubt it was a good fight by today's standards.  I would hate for my claim to fame to be that I sparred with a movie star.  Who are Wong Jackman's student?  What do they really bring compared to Chen Village, Systema, or Li family Choy Li Fut?  What do they have to offer?


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## clfsean (Mar 25, 2012)

Neijia said:


> Bruce Lee was a bit of a dick.  He didn't complete his training with Yip Man, then claimed he was a master once he got to America.  He went all out as small guys tend to do and his betters didn't want to kill him for it.  He's inspiring on many levels, but it was the 70's he was a star and died of drugs while banging some chick.  Death touch?  Yeah...Jimmy Hendrix must have had that too.  So did Janis Joplin.  I get it, he made films that we liked and he was the first and last martial artist in film who could demonstrate any believable emotion.  That said he did a great service promoting martial arts.  As to who won what challenge match?  I doubt it was a good fight by today's standards.  I would hate for my claim to fame to be that I sparred with a movie star.  Who are Wong Jackman's student?  What do they really bring compared to Chen Village, Systema, or Li family Choy Li Fut?  What do they have to offer?



Continuing Wong Sifu's teachings for the big one. 

And you are who by the way?


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## oaktree (Mar 25, 2012)

Hi Neijia 
There is more to Wong then he just fought Bruce Lee, Wong is an accomplished martial artist who put in alot of time teaching and training.
  Since you are so great Neijia when was the last time you fought Bruce Lee?


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 25, 2012)

I swear Neijia was here before under a different name... but regardless... he is way off the mark in every post I have read by him today so I have decided to not take him seriously... just like I did last time


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## elder999 (Mar 25, 2012)

Neijia said:


> Bruce Lee was a bit of a dick.



Agreed-lots of motivated and successful people are.



> *I, Bruce Lee, will be the highest paid Oriental superstar in the United States. In return, I will give the most exciting performances and render the best quality in the capacity of an actor. Starting in 1970, I will achieve world fame and from then onward till the end of 1989 I will have in my possession $10,000,000. Then I will live the way I please and achieve inner harmony and happiness.
> *​



Bruce Lee wrote this in a letter to himself in 1970, and accomplished it all by his untimely death in 1973.

We can all learn a lot from him-*not* _wing chun_, or even about martial arts, necessarily, but about _living._



Neijia said:


> He didn't complete his training with Yip Man, then claimed he was a master once he got to America.



Not unlike a lot of Korean "Grandmasters," back in the day.....



Neijia said:


> He's inspiring on many levels, but it was the 70's he was a star and died of drugs while banging some chick.



Don't think it was quite that sordid-he had some marijuana and the proper dosage of a prescription pain killer in his system.He'd actually suffered from cerebral edema a month before the one that killed him, without taking that particular painkiller, so who really knows?



Neijia said:


> . I get it, he made films that we liked and he was the first and last martial artist in film who could demonstrate any believable emotion.



Jeff Speakman is a competent actor who starred in soap operas _before_ making martial arts films-he's an actor who just happens to be a martial artist-there are actually quite a few of those, like....I dunno...._Oscar winner_, Robert Downey, Jr.?


Oh, and, Jet Li?










Neijia said:


> .As to who won what challenge match?



_Who *cares*? _:lol:



Neijia said:


> . What do they have to offer>



What do *you* have to offer? :lol:


----------



## Neijia (Mar 26, 2012)

True Jeff Speakman is a great martial artist, a great actor and by all accounts a great man.  Its too bad we don't see more of him on film.  He is still alive, why not worship him instead of Bruce Lee?


----------



## clfsean (Mar 26, 2012)

Neijia said:


> True Jeff Speakman is a great martial artist, a great actor and by all accounts a great man.  Its too bad we don't see more of him on film.  He is still alive, why not worship him instead of Bruce Lee?



Who worships Bruce Lee? No one I know personally or through MA's.

Who are you again? What do you  have to offer again?


----------



## sfs982000 (Mar 26, 2012)

Neijia said:


> True Jeff Speakman is a great martial artist, a great actor and by all accounts a great man. Its too bad we don't see more of him on film. He is still alive, why not worship him instead of Bruce Lee?



I thinks it's less worshipping as it is a respect for his contributions to the martial arts.


----------



## Steve (Mar 26, 2012)

Who's Bruce lee?


----------



## elder999 (Mar 26, 2012)

Steve said:


> Who's Bruce lee?



Just _another_ guy Gene LeBell choked out back in the 60's...:lol:


----------



## clfsean (Mar 26, 2012)

elder999 said:


> Just _another_ guy Gene LeBell choked out back in the 60's...:lol:



Oiy vey... I haven't laughed like that since I saw a pic of the guy ex dated.... 

I almost choked on that one!!!!!!!!

Precious... _just another guy... _


----------



## elder999 (Mar 26, 2012)

clfsean said:
			
		

> Oiy vey... I haven't laughed like that since I saw a pic of the guy ex dated....
> 
> I almost choked on that one!!!!!!!!
> 
> Precious... _just another guy... _




Watch those old _Green Hornet_ episodes-Gene was one of the stuntmen. They were, by most accounts, pretty good friends....Bruce liked Gene 'cause he could take a fall well, and liked learning grappling from him-look at the opening scene of _Enter the Dragon_, and Bruce submits Sammo Hung with a judo move.Look at the drawings in _Tao of Jeet Kune Do_ and you'll find more judo than you will wing chun. Two of Bruce's earliest students, including his first one, Jesse Glover, were judoka.

Bruce Lee had a lot of respect for judo-at least the way it was done back then, as opposed to "Olympic style," but he was just one of the guys that Gene LeBell- who's also not dead yet, and has plenty of worshippers-*choked out*.

Though the first time they met, he just hoisted the little guy on his shoulders and ran up and down the hall of the studio with him....:lol: :



> "When I got to the set Benny pointed  Bruce out and told me  to go put him in a headlock or something. Well,  I'm a good employee and I  always listen to the boss, so I went over to  grab Bruce and he starts  making all those crazy noises he became famous  for. As a joke, I picked  him up and put him on my shoulder in a  fireman's carry kind of thing,  then I ran down the length of the set  and back again. Bruce says "put me  down or I'll kill you". So I run  down the set again and he says, "put  me down" and I say "I can't put  you down or you'll kill me". After that I  sat down and talked to my  boss and the other crew members for a couple  minutes with him up on my  shoulder. He finally crawled off, we all had a  good laugh, and we went  and shot our scenes.





The rest of Gene's webpage is almost as hilarious as the man himself....:lol:

(and, while not _exactly_ a "worshiper,"  I do believe that if Gene had been there that day, he'd have taken Bruce *and* Wong Jack Man _*out*_, in a lot less than 25 minutes....or *3* :lfao: )


----------



## clfsean (Mar 27, 2012)

elder999 said:


> Watch those old _Green Hornet_ episodes-Gene was one of the stuntmen. They were, by most accounts, pretty good friends....Bruce liked Gene 'cause he could take a fall well, and liked learning grappling from him-look at the opening scene of _Enter the Dragon_, and Bruce submits Sammo Hung with a judo move.Look at the drawings in _Tao of Jeet Kune Do_ and you'll find more judo than you will wing chun. Two of Bruce's earliest students, including his first one, Jesse Glover, were judoka.
> 
> Bruce Lee had a lot of respect for judo-at least the way it was done back then, as opposed to "Olympic style," but he was just one of the guys that Gene LeBell- who's also not dead yet, and has plenty of worshippers-*choked out*.
> 
> ...



Yeah I've seen some old clips & you can see him clearly in it. He was also in one of Brandon's movies & I wanna say he went & ended up using a mounted Duece .50 (of all things) in a bar (of all places) before Brandon "took him out" :shooter:



elder999 said:


> (and, while not _exactly_ a "worshiper,"  I do believe that if Gene had been there that day, he'd have taken Bruce *and* Wong Jack Man _*out*_, in a lot less than 25 minutes....or *3* :lfao: )



I don't think it would've gone a full three... :dalek:


----------



## oaktree (Mar 27, 2012)

I liked Gene In The Golden Child.


----------



## clfsean (Mar 27, 2012)

oaktree said:


> I liked Gene In The Golden Child.



Gene was in that?? Eh, not surprising. I gotta be honest though, I was too busy oogling her to notice him.

View attachment $goldenc2.jpg


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Mar 27, 2012)

While I don't really care who "won" a fight with Bruce Lee 48 years ago, I am amused at the amount of spin contained in every version of the story.  I had always thought that Lee's account had elements that didn't make sense as presented, but I have to say that this article is even sillier and more spin-doctored.  

Maybe Wong's palm strike killed Bruce Lee with a delayed death touch!  (After all, Lee died only _eight years_ later.)
Maybe Bruce Lee died young because JKD is unhealthy and lacks the wisdom of the ancients!  (Never mind that his top student, Dan Inosanto, is still going strong and a total badass at age 75.)

I do have to say that the differing accounts seem somewhat typical of the aftermath of an inconclusive street fight between a couple of egotistical hotheads.  "Did you see that?  I was tearing him apart! He's just lucky I decided to take it easy on him."  "Yeah, I would have used my kicks, but they're so deadly I might have decapitated him."


----------



## Xue Sheng (Mar 27, 2012)

clfsean said:


> Gene was in that?? Eh, not surprising. I gotta be honest though, I was too busy oogling her to notice him.
> 
> View attachment 16230



I'm glad I'm not the only one that didn't know Gene was in that movie


----------



## Manseau (May 27, 2013)

"Who he is" would be better answered by the likes of Jesse Glover(RIP), James Yimm Lee(RIP), Taky Kimura, and the thousands of other people directly influenced by his life on this earth. Good or bad, he has left a huge legacy that has touched many people.                       Regards,          David

"A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have." Gerald Ford 1974.    Looks like Gerald could read the future.


----------



## Tames D (May 27, 2013)

Manseau said:


> "Who he is" would be better answered by the likes of Jesse Glover(RIP), James Yimm Lee(RIP), Taky Kimura, and the thousands of other people directly influenced by his life on this earth. Good or bad, he has left a huge legacy that has touched many people.                       Regards,          David
> 
> "A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have." Gerald Ford 1974.    Looks like Gerald could read the future.



An early death has a way of doing that. James Dean?


----------



## James Kovacich (May 27, 2013)

Tony Dismukes said:


> While I don't really care who "won" a fight with Bruce Lee 48 years ago, I am amused at the amount of spin contained in every version of the story.  I had always thought that Lee's account had elements that didn't make sense as presented, but I have to say that this article is even sillier and more spin-doctored.
> 
> Maybe Wong's palm strike killed Bruce Lee with a delayed death touch!  (After all, Lee died only _eight years_ later.)
> Maybe Bruce Lee died young because JKD is unhealthy and lacks the wisdom of the ancients!  (Never mind that his top student, Dan Inosanto, is still going strong and a total badass at age 75.)
> ...



Bruce died July 20th 1973. The infamous match in question must of happened in the early to mid sixties while he had his Oakland Jun Fan Gung Fu Institue open and oclosed it's doors in 1967.

EDIT: Haha, I though you wrote he died 8 months later. 
Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Manseau (May 28, 2013)

With all due respect, I know who James Dean was and he weren't no Bruce Lee. He wasn't even close to Jimmy Dean whose name is still buoyed by "Big John" and pure pork sausage.  You should have picked Buddy Holly. Or am I full of crap?
 Kind regards,

David


----------



## blindsage (May 28, 2013)

Manseau said:


> With all due respect, I know who James Dean was and he weren't no Bruce Lee. He wasn't even close to Jimmy Dean whose name is still buoyed by "Big John" and pure pork sausage.  You should have picked Buddy Holly. Or am I full of crap?
> Kind regards,
> 
> David


Ummm....what?


----------



## Xue Sheng (May 28, 2013)

Manseau said:


> With all due respect, I know who James Dean was and he weren't no Bruce Lee. He wasn't even close to Jimmy Dean whose name is still buoyed by "Big John" and pure pork sausage.  You should have picked Buddy Holly. *Or am I full of crap*?
> Kind regards,
> 
> David



I don't know but at what the thread is about and then noticing that your post appears to have no relation to it what-so-ever you tell me


----------



## Tames D (May 28, 2013)

Manseau said:


> With all due respect, I know who James Dean was and he weren't no Bruce Lee. He wasn't even close to Jimmy Dean whose name is still buoyed by "Big John" and pure pork sausage.  You should have picked Buddy Holly. *Or am I full of crap?
> *Kind regards,
> 
> David



You're full of crap. Hey, you asked


----------



## Manseau (May 28, 2013)

Tames D said:


> An early death has a way of doing that. James Dean?


Sorry every body. I should have originally linked this to the post for the sake of continuity. One more time. 

With all due respect, I know who James Dean was and he weren't no Bruce  Lee. He wasn't even close to Jimmy Dean whose name is still buoyed by  "Big John" and pure pork sausage.  You should have picked Buddy Holly. Or am I full of crap?

BTW, I got the answer to the last question, no need to revisit that

Kind regards,

David


----------



## Napitenkah (Jun 20, 2013)

It is useful to reconsider what has been said before.
Generally, people only know the Lee account of what happened.
Not so much, who won, because no one wins a fight, in the long run.
But what happened and what the people were actually like, what state of awareness were they in at the time.
It is true that wong jack man was typically seen as a villian, defending the chinese communities dogmatic demand that no non-chinese should be shown chinese martial arts.
In the movie Dragon, the Bruce Lee story, He is really shown as dishonest and vicious.
Where during the fight, even after he lost he did a cheap shot and kicked Lee's back out, when in reality, his back injury came from lifting weights.
I can imagine if I was wong jack man, as they used his name in the movie, and I saw that, knowing how I really was, and what happened, and knowing people would see that and just believe that is how it was.
The director did say, he did those changes for dramatic purposes, but if the fight was just in response to Bruce Lee's challenge, then the whole premise is fiction.
It just would likely be so surreal to be misrepresented for decades, if things didn't happen exactly as Bruce and Linda Lee said.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jun 20, 2013)

What I find amazing about the Bruce Lee, Wong Jack Man fight is that it happened in 1964 and Bruce Lee died 9 years later and 40 years after Bruce's death and 49 years after the fight....we are still discussing/talking/arguing about it.

As for the movie Dragon..it was just that a movie.. and not reality


----------



## oaktree (Jun 20, 2013)

Well what else can we gossip? On the cover of tiger beat this month is
1D holding puppies.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jun 20, 2013)

oaktree said:


> Well what else can we gossip? On the cover of tiger beat this month is
> 1D holding puppies.



I wouldn't know.... I don't read tiger beat.... and now you have me concerned that you do...which is MUCH better gossip that Bruce and Wong :EG:


----------



## Napitenkah (Jun 21, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> What I find amazing about the Bruce Lee, Wong Jack Man fight is that it happened in 1964 and Bruce Lee died 9 years later and 40 years after Bruce's death and 49 years after the fight....we are still discussing/talking/arguing about it.
> 
> As for the movie Dragon..it was just that a movie.. and not reality



Oh, thanks, I thought it was a documentary filming on things really happening.


----------



## Napitenkah (Jun 21, 2013)

Tiger beat actually has extensive tiger form instruction and applications, but you need special glasses to read it, otherwise it looks like a bunch of teenage pinups.


----------



## clfsean (Jun 21, 2013)

Napitenkah said:


> It is useful to reconsider what has been said before.
> Generally, people only know the Lee account of what happened.
> Not so much, who won, because no one wins a fight, in the long run.
> But what happened and what the people were actually like, what state of awareness were they in at the time.
> ...



Or... Wong Sifu just didn't care enough to mention it after the fact. 

And you are???


----------



## EddieCyrax (Jun 21, 2013)

As with all things based on one's faith, actual events are left to interpretation.

History is filled with inconsistancies, based on individual beliefs and perspectives...

As I see it, two young early 20's, cocky, skilled martial artists fought each other to a draw.  Each side interpreted the outcome to reconsile their ego.

You can see this on the streets or in the dojo everyday.  Only difference is the current group of 20 somethings have not been made famous as the MA's are widely known today.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jun 21, 2013)

Napitenkah said:


> Oh, thanks, I thought it was a documentary filming on things really happening.



Sarcasm...good start...(and yes, that too was sacasm)

The point was movies should not be taken to seriously and by your statement



> In the movie Dragon, the Bruce Lee story, He is really shown as dishonest and vicious.
> Where during the fight, even after he lost he did a cheap shot and kicked Lee's back out



Sounded as if it was upsetting to you, sorry if I misinterpreted your meaning

And this just brings me back too

What I find amazing about the Bruce Lee, Wong Jack Man fight is that it happened in 1964 and Bruce Lee died 9 years later and 40 years after Bruce's death and 49 years after the fight....we are still discussing/talking/arguing about it.


----------



## clfsean (Jun 21, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> What I find amazing about the Bruce Lee, Wong Jack Man fight is that it happened in 1964 and Bruce Lee died 9 years later and 40 years after Bruce's death and 49 years after the fight....we are still discussing/talking/arguing about it.



Dude... people still get all in a lather about Elvis, John Lennon & Jimi Hendrix. Why should this be any different to those of fan ilk. Said it before, say it again... Never liked or cared for Bruce Lee. I've talked with seniors in SF that were party to the incident. 

Hey look... isn't that a pink elephant over there??


----------



## Flying Crane (Jun 21, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> What I find amazing about the Bruce Lee, Wong Jack Man fight is that it happened in 1964 and Bruce Lee died 9 years later and 40 years after Bruce's death and 49 years after the fight....we are still discussing/talking/arguing about it.
> 
> As for the movie Dragon..it was just that a movie.. and not reality



And Wong Jack Man has lived a long and healthy life and has taught many many students in the meantime.  He retired a few years ago.


----------



## Flying Crane (Jun 21, 2013)

clfsean said:


> Dude... people still get all in a lather about Elvis, John Lennon & Jimi Hendrix.



They had a fight???  Who won?


----------



## oaktree (Jun 21, 2013)

I'd say elvis he was a black belt and the king.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jun 21, 2013)

clfsean said:


> Dude... people still get all in a lather about Elvis, John Lennon & Jimi Hendrix. Why should this be any different to those of fan ilk. Said it before, say it again... Never liked or cared for Bruce Lee. I've talked with seniors in SF that were party to the incident.
> 
> Hey look... isn't that a pink elephant over there??




Yeah I know, and that amazes me too...now if you don't mind Jimi, Jim, Elvis and I are going out for coffee 



Flying Crane said:


> And Wong Jack Man has lived a long and healthy life and has taught many many students in the meantime. He retired a few years ago.




Well he has got some nerve for doing that after what he did...or did not do :uhyeah:


----------



## Flying Crane (Jun 21, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> Well he has got some nerve for doing that after what he did...or did not do :uhyeah:



aye. So...who really won and who lost?


----------



## jks9199 (Jun 21, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> What I find amazing about the Bruce Lee, Wong Jack Man fight is that it happened in 1964 and Bruce Lee died 9 years later and 40 years after Bruce's death and 49 years after the fight....we are still discussing/talking/arguing about it.
> 
> As for the movie Dragon..it was just that a movie.. and not reality



It was a hagiography... and about as accurate.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jun 21, 2013)

Flying Crane said:


> aye. So...who really won and who lost?



The guy from China won

Other than that...it depends on whose side of the story you want to believe


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jun 21, 2013)

jks9199 said:


> It was a hagiography... and about as accurate.



Well since you put it that way....yes, yes it was


----------



## Napitenkah (Jun 23, 2013)

clfsean said:


> Or... Wong Sifu just didn't care enough to mention it after the fact.
> 
> And you are???



I'm just someone here. 
I was just going over my own feelings on what I had heard before, and how I and probably others just tended to believe whoever had the most influence on public perception.
Which in this case was Bruce Lee.
But where I am at on it now, is closer to not accepting anything at face value and not thinking I know what happened.
I dont think it is a big deal that people are still talking about it.
Bruce Lee was a big influence, atleast the idea of him, on countless people. 
So people will talk about controversaries on people they admire.
If it had been me and some other unknown guy that had a challenge match, then no, no one would be talking about it 30 years later.


----------



## Napitenkah (Jun 23, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> Sarcasm...good start...(and yes, that too was sacasm)
> 
> The point was movies should not be taken to seriously and by your statement
> 
> ...



It sounded sarcastic, but I meant it as a joke, not a defense.

What I meant by the wong jack man in the movie, is, although I have not ever met him, he is likely the complete opposite of how they show him in the movie. I know how it feels, to have someone misrepresent who you are in a public play or film, something like that happened at camp when I was a kid.

It is not amazing when it concerns BRUCE LEE


----------



## Napitenkah (Jun 23, 2013)

I have a question. It sounds like some here actually knew Wong jack man, as they refer to him as Sifu.

What was he like.


----------



## Flying Crane (Jun 23, 2013)

Napitenkah said:


> I have a question. It sounds like some here actually knew Wong jack man, as they refer to him as Sifu.
> 
> What was he like.



It's OK to refer to a teacher as "Sifu" even if he's not YOUR sifu.  In that sense it's just an acknowledgement of him as a teacher.

My first sifu did study under him for about a decade.  He described Sifu Wong as being a truly exceptional martial artist.  He also described him as someone who perhaps didn't have a lot of patience in teaching.  He would show you something a couple times and if you still don't get it, then he wouldn't often have patience to show it again.  My sifu speaks Cantonese and felt that gave him a real advantage in this regard, being able to communicate with Sifu Wong better.  He has a tremendous amount of respect for Sifu Wong.


----------



## Napitenkah (Jun 23, 2013)

It's okay, but I don't unless they gave me some kind of instruction.
After that I will always refer to them as Sifu, even if I leave the school.
I left a pai Lum Kung Fu school, but the sifu, if I saw him anywhere, I would still bow and say sir, as it was.


----------



## clfsean (Jun 24, 2013)

Napitenkah said:


> It's okay, but I don't unless they gave me some kind of instruction.



That is bad manners.



Napitenkah said:


> After that I will always refer to them as Sifu, even if I leave the school.



Don't you call a "Doctor..." even without seeing them first?



Napitenkah said:


> I left a pai Lum Kung Fu school, but the sifu, if I saw him anywhere, I would still bow and say sir, as it was.



That's plain silly to be bow to anybody in public. Sir is better.


----------



## Napitenkah (Jun 24, 2013)

clfsean said:


> That is bad manners.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I am seeing a gap of communication between what I am writing and how you are responding.

I came to this site because it read that it was a friendly martial arts community. I have been to most of the big forums, and left, because they like to ridicule people, and the Moderators allow them to do it, and back them up.

If it is just a few people here, then I won't talk to them.


----------



## clfsean (Jun 24, 2013)

Napitenkah said:


> I am seeing a gap of communication between what I am writing and how you are responding.



No... there's on a gap on how you are writing & therefore there's a gap in how I am responding to your post. That would be the problem. However, you could've perceived my responses as differently than intended given your 
newbness here. Read on... 



Napitenkah said:


> I came to this site because it read that it was a friendly martial arts community. I have been to most of the big forums, and left, because they like to ridicule people, and the Moderators allow them to do it, and back them up.



It is quite friendly. We are a great bunch. But like any established community, you need to introduce yourself. Maybe browse around a bit, see how things are done, see how the personalities are, how interaction between
established members are, etc... before deciding to join & post away with little regard for giving anybody a clue about who you are, your experience, your likes/dislikes, etc... 
Now unlike KFO & your short time there (yes, I've been there for way before Kung Fu Magazine bought the board), the mod staff here is different. If you feel you've been abused or treated unfiarly. Review the TOS you should've read already & report the post. If it's actionable, it will be addressed accordingly. But don't expect big warm hugs & kisses without establishing yourself first. 



Napitenkah said:


> If it is just a few people here, then I won't talk to them.



That's always advisable. 

Or... what's better is why not dust off your Dungarees from the dirt of the playground & rather than taking your toys & go home... why not introduce yourself to the kids here on the playground
that've been around longer & didn't trip you quite the way you think you were tripped.

Or not... it's up to you. But you'll find a serious amount of knowledge & first hand experiences here. However... it comes with a price. That price is interaction & experience.


----------



## Napitenkah (Jun 24, 2013)

No.
I see only one kid on the playground being mean for no reason.
I haven't seen anyone else honing in on me.

So I'm not going to let him dictate how I am here.

I remember that when I was a kid, some kid that just didn't like someone. There was no valid reason.

On forums, people come from different cultures, and my culture, I don't introduce myself other than to be myself.

Which is what I did.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jun 25, 2013)

Napitenkah said:


> No.
> I see only one kid on the playground being mean for no reason.
> I haven't seen anyone else honing in on me
> 
> ...




Not the way I see it, but then you are entitled to your opinion. 




Napitenkah said:


> On forums, people come from different cultures, and my culture, I don't introduce myself other than to be myself.
> 
> Which is what I did.



Out of curiosity, what culture might that be? I have delt with multiple cultures and so far all of them introduce themselves. Heck we even have multipel cultures represented here on MT and one way or another they seem to always introduce themselves.

Look here
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/115-Meet-amp-Greet

That is where a lot of people introduce themselves and give some background as to what they have done and so on.


----------



## Tames D (Jun 25, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> I wouldn't know.... I don't read tiger beat.... and now you have me concerned that you do...which is MUCH better gossip that Bruce and Wong :EG:



C'mon Xue, get with it. David Cassidy and Bobby Sherman are on the cover this month.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jun 25, 2013)

Tames D said:


> C'mon Xue, get with it. David Cassidy and Bobby Sherman are on the cover this month.



Now you too concern me.....:uhyeah:


----------



## Napitenkah (Jun 25, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> Not the way I see it, but then you are entitled to your opinion.


Actually I think you are right there. There is always a reason.
Kids; when someone new comes in and doesn't socialize the way they feel he/she should, the kids often don't know how to handle it, but to be petulant toward the new kid.
But we are adults, we can come up with better ways. 


Xue Sheng said:


> Out of curiosity, what culture might that be? I have delt with multiple cultures and so far all of them introduce themselves. Heck we even have multipel cultures represented here on MT and one way or another they seem to always introduce themselves.
> Look here
> http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/115-Meet-amp-Greet
> That is where a lot of people introduce themselves and give some background as to what they have done and so on.


Would you like me to introduce myself, because I will for you, you seem nice and are not being petulant.
Napitenkah means fight in shoshoni. I am Newe sosohni. 
Western shoshoni. Which means each shoshoni is an individual, and although many sosohni are not on the social ritual of introducing themselves, some will do it.
When I say MY culture, I mean me as an individual sosohni.
I have been doing martial arts, off and on, depending on finance and availibility since I was 17.
I am 46.
I am a Black Belt in taekwondo,
I know the 3 short forms of the tiger from Pai Lum Kung Fu, and am currently going to the Soards Shaolin, and am a yellow belt.
And yes, I like getting belts, or sashes, certificates, I like that. But, of course I do like actually knowing what the belt represents knowing, and I practice by myself on it as well.
I write, compose and record music, I do art of varying sorts, with my wife, we sell some of it online.
I like when people use chinese names, they are cool, and can tell the difference between a chinese name and a japanese name. And to some extent a vietnamese name.
I do maintenance of all sorts, I have a degree in HVAC, and am curently learning and putting together materials to build a solar panel.
I don't like fine dining and have never been to a fine restaurant in my life.
Well maybe, but I don't recall. I know one place served haagen daaz for dessert ice cream, so that might have been.
Another thing about me is I don't understand the importance of introducing oneself as a means of a group being friendly, but that is because it doesn't happen with adults in person most times.
In the kwoon, we introduce each other by name before we spar, or if a black belt is showing me something. Most people have a hard time pronouncing my name. Which isn't Napintenkah, but another shoshoni set of words.
But otherwise I don't, I will just go up and talk to someone, and they can with me.
In a group, I prefer natural interaction. Not a custom.
I don't know everything about you guys, and I could scour the 50 or more pages of the meet and greet, but I will probably find out eventually anyway.


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## Tames D (Jun 25, 2013)

clfsean said:


> No... there's on a gap on how you are writing & therefore there's a gap in how I am responding to your post. That would be the problem. However, you could've perceived my responses as differently than intended given your
> newbness here. Read on...
> 
> 
> ...



Thank God we're driving this newbie out of here. Good job!


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## seasoned (Jun 26, 2013)

*Ladies and gentlemen,* if you find during your discourses here that there is a point of view that you simply cannot reconcile yourselves to, then the simplest of approaches is not to take part in threads that contain that view.

Likewise, if there is a particular poster that you cannot respond to civilly or that you feel has breached the regulations of the forum in some fashion, then there are two tools available to you to cope with this:

If you cannot get along with someone else, then place them on your Ignore List.

If a breach of the regulations has occurred then use the RTM function so that the Staff can deal with the problem.

The temptation to "have it out" in a public forum should be resisted at all costs."
*
*


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 26, 2013)

Napitenkah said:


> Actually I think you are right there. There is always a reason.
> Kids; when someone new comes in and doesn't socialize the way they feel he/she should, the kids often don't know how to handle it, but to be petulant toward the new kid.
> But we are adults, we can come up with better ways.
> 
> ...



I know virtually little to nothing about Shoshoni culture and none of its language, thank you for telling me, so Napitenkah means fight, I shall be very careful about using the word, there are a lot of words in Beijing Mandarin that in english mean nothing but in Mandarin will get you into a fight if you put "nei" in front of it, never call a married man a turtle or tell a woman she is a chicken or tell someone they are crazy in Beijing 

Xue Sheng (Mandarin for Student) I am I  American of mostly western european heritage, not Chinese, but half of my family is from China (wife)

Trained in 
Jujutsu, Teakwondo with a dash of Karate in my youth

These days and for the last 20 years, Chinese martial arts, started with Yang Taijiquan, also.

Chen Taijiquan, with a dash of Northern Wu Taijiquan
Shaolin Long Fist, Baguazhang, Sanda, and Wing Chun (not as long)
Also a very short time in JKD and JF
Xingyiquan is by far my favorite style but I can no longer train it due to knee injuries


These days I am strickly Yang Taijiquan, which I have been trainiing for a little over 20 years

I tend to beleive that once someone calls themselves, or thinks of themselves as a master all learning stops, which is why I always try to think of myself as a student (xue sheng)


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## colemcm (Jun 26, 2013)

Flying Crane said:


> He also described him as someone who perhaps didn't have a lot of patience in teaching.  He would show you something a couple times and if you still don't get it, then he wouldn't often have patience to show it again.  My sifu speaks Cantonese and felt that gave him a real advantage in this regard, being able to communicate with Sifu Wong better.  He has a tremendous amount of respect for Sifu Wong.



This seems to be a pretty common Chinese way of teaching.  My Sifu taught the same way.  Confucius said, "But if I hold up one corner and he cannot respond with the other three I will not repeat myself." 

Of course, that could just be his personality.


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## geezer (Jun 26, 2013)

Napitenkah said:


> It's okay, but I don't unless they gave me some kind of instruction.
> After that I will always refer to them as Sifu, even if I leave the school.
> I left a pai Lum Kung Fu school, but the sifu, if I saw him anywhere, I would still bow and say sir, as it was.



_Napitenkah:_ Just a note of clarification on the term _sifu. _According to my old Cantonese speaking Chinese instructor, there are _two separate terms_ pronounced as "sifu", represented by different characters and with differing meanings. The first version is "sifu" meaning teacher-father and that term is reserved just for your personal teacher with whom you have an established _sifu-todai_ (teacher- student) relationship. The second term "sifu" is simply used as an honorific or term of respect for any  highly skilled practitioner or instructor. In Chinese culture it is common and good manners to use the word "sifu" in this sense to refer to any respectable master other than your own sifu.

When my sifu (that is "teacher-father) took us to have dinner, etc. with other well known Chinese martial arts instructors, we (his _to-dai_) would always keep the guest instructor's teacup filled and refer to the guest using the term "sifu" in the second sense meaning "respected master".

Interestingly, my first brush with formal martial arts training way back in the mid '70's was also with the Pai Lum system as taught by David L. Smith in New London, Ct. He claimed that the Pai Lum family system had Northern Chinese roots and he used the Mandarin pronunciation _Shifu. _Later, after studying with actual Chinese instructors, I have come to understand that the Pai Lum system of Daniel K. Pai is unknown in China and is actually more akin to Chinese Kenpo --being an Americanized blend of Japanese and Chinese techniques. This may also affect the understanding  and use of Chinese terms. Regardless, good luck and best wishes as you progress in the martial arts.


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## Napitenkah (Jun 27, 2013)

The thing is, we could go on and on through out history, and find that no martial art or MA history is not without some kind of credibility issue, controversy, deception, misinformation.

Like a common acceptance is that Bodhidharma brought martial arts to the Shaolin temple. But apparently there is historians that have discounted that on the premise that the Yi Jin Jing is a forgery, and that some of the monks were already involved with MA before becoming the first Monks of Shaolin. They apparently knew staff and empty hand techniques before Bodhidharma.

So if that is how it is, and we cannot for sure know, it is a solid feature of martial arts history that what we have been told of how things were created, done and achieved may not be. So it inadvertently may be a tradition in MA history.

I know one thing, all martial arts had to be made up, at some point. People watched animals and ripped off their movements to make a MA form.

So I feel, as long as the sifu can teach well, whether they made up the forms themselves or someone did 2 thousand years ago, it will probably help achieve fitness, self defense and health.

I know it has with me.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 27, 2013)

Napitenkah said:


> The thing is, we could go on and on through out history, and find that no martial art or MA history is not without some kind of credibility issue, controversy, deception, misinformation.
> 
> Like a common acceptance is that Bodhidharma brought martial arts to the Shaolin temple. But apparently there is historians that have discounted that on the premise that the Yi Jin Jing is a forgery, and that some of the monks were already involved with MA before becoming the first Monks of Shaolin. They apparently knew staff and empty hand techniques before Bodhidharma.
> 
> ...



Well there's truth to that, but personally I don't like to find out that someone was deliberately deceiving me.  It makes me wonder, why?  What else are they hiding?  And once we've gone down that path I begin to question the very material that I've been taught.  The "history" that I've been told doesn't actually exist, there is no history of this material being effective, etc.  Maybe the material was built on top of this guy's fantasy?  Things that make ya go "hmmm..."

With the Shaolin history, it's true that the Damo story may not be true, but there are centuries of history with the material being effective.  So even if that story isn't true, the material has still been shown to be good stuff.  

But when it's just one generation out, like with the Pai Lum stuff, well that's not much foundation to go on.  Hybridized systems sometimes work well, sometimes they don't.  It really depends a lot on what material was mixed together, and HOW it was mixed.  So I don't know anything about Pai Lum, but those are the concerns that I would have.


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## Napitenkah (Jun 27, 2013)

What I feel, is there are no bad martial arts, it is all up to the aspiring martial artist.
Pai lum came about When Daniel pai, learned various martial arts from his family, and from that formulated Pai Lum Kung Fu.
Let's say I learn wushu, and Taekwondo, and jiujitsu, and then make my own martial art on it.
And from there, I come up with some of my own forms which have strikes, blocks, kicks of various types, but can only be ones that relate to a style, like Se meng t'ao lian, if sin-the  made that one up, it still incorporates strikes, blocks and movements found in Taichi and Kung fu.
Where does the part of it not being established as useful come in?
I have the sense to see that for some of the strikes of Se meng t'ao lian to work, I have to practice. Just like I would for a form that is known to be a genuine shaolin form.
A knife hand is useless unless you condition your fingers and hand to make it a weapon.
People will say they don' teach forms because they say they don't work in a real fight.
Because, if they did ever learn them, they didn't take the real energetic time and imagination to go over what they were doing. They didn't condition their body to where it moves with the chi power, let alone just condition their body in a purely physical manner to make their martial art work.
There are only so many strikes, blocks, and movements and they all have been done before, and it is all up to the student to make them effective. Pai lum and the chinese shaolin center isn't teaching some totally knew kind of martial art curriculum that has never been seen before.
They teach a curriculum, some of which is from older martial arts and some stuff they came up with, but is still based in the tools of the older martial art.
They put something together that incorporates all the things they would like to see in one martial art. Then they call it one martial art. Which is the deception, but it is not a malicious deception that requires a strong stand. It isn't like someone that takes your money and leaves you with nothing. People from other schools will say that, because they want you to go to their school instead. You got to know the sharks from the guppies, and the only way that can really be done is to feel people energetically.
if someone overlooks the Boddhidarma story possibly being false, and yet is really hardcore on people today that are perceived to be frauds, then you are probably in line with the tradition.
Because back then, likely the same kinds of conversations were going on.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 28, 2013)

I'm not passing judgement on Pai Lum because I have no experience with it.  I'm only commenting on some things that I consider with regard to "new" systems or hybrid systems.  

Not every form is equal.  Some were well designed and well constructed, and, when properly understood and properly taught and properly trained, they are very valuable training tools.  Those same forms have little or no value if NOT properly understood, properly taught, and properly trained.  

Other forms were no so well designed and are just superficial exercise with little value in martial training.  

So when it comes to passing along forms and other martial material, it really does depend on a number of issues as to how much value those forms will have for you.


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## Tai Mantis Warrior (Sep 27, 2013)

Came across this interesting thread and thought I'd throw in my thoughts on this.

I practise a set of martial arts (Tai Chi Praying Mantis, Bagua, Xing-Yi, Northern Shaolin etc) that are closely connected to the teachings of Wong Jack Man.  Some of my master's teachers were taught by him.  I never met Sigung Wong but from what my teachers have told me about him, he was enormously well respected in the Chinese martial arts community.  He was also a highly skilled fighter, which is why he was chosen to fight Bruce Lee.  It was supposed to be a message issued by the older more experienced martial arts teachers.  From the stories I heard, it resembled a kind of classic mafia battle where the older mustache petes wanted to take out a younger, brasher upstart.   By all acounts, Sifu Wong was an old school-style teacher whose doors were open to all who sought his instruction. As a man, he was described as extremely soft-spoken, kind, modest, fair, and very private - which helps explain why he remained rather quiet about this incident for so many years.  He is has lived now for over 70 years, and still taught up until a few years ago after decades of practice and trying to spread the fitness and self defense teachings of his art to everyone he possibly could, so that everyone could benefit both morally and athletically from training in the martial arts.

Apparently, he felt some regret for having participated in the fight with Lee, because it made both him and Lee look like bickering hotheads.  He blamed the fight on arrogance on the part of both fighters (Lee and Wong were both about 23 when they fought).  However, according to my teachers the fight was not about Lee teaching Chinese martial arts to foreigners - indeed Sifu Wong himself had several non-Chinese students and probably taught many more non-Chinese students throughout his 45 years of teaching than Lee did.  Rather, it was more about Lee having a big mouth and putting down the teachings of other martial arts teachers in the area.  Sifu Wong requested a public fight with Lee after Lee had issued an open challenge during a demonstration at a Chinatown theater in which he claimed to be able to defeat any martial artist in San Francisco.  A mutual acquaintance delivered a note from Lee inviting him to fight so he showed up at Lee's school to challenge him.

According to Wong and another man who was there - a Tai Chi instructor named William Chen - the fight was a draw and lasted about 20 or 25 minutes.  But of course, Bruce became the more famous of the two and so his version stuck.  Wong was obviously unhappy about Lee's version and in a local Chinese newspaper once again challenged Lee to another fight - this time in public so there could be no confusion as to the winner.  

Lee never responded.

But whatever the case, what we do know for sure is that it was Lee who eventually had to leave San Francisco due to the pressure from other martial artists right before, during, and after this fight.  Also, let's not forget that it was Lee who eventually abandoned his art as being ineffective after this fight.

I'm not sure about Lee, but I know Sifu Wong would rather be remembered for his excellence as both an instructor and a practitioner of Chinese Martial Arts than this fight, which only gives the martial arts a bad name by showing that people settle their problems through violence.


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