# Why Hard Punchers could still hit HARD even in old age and power is not lost as drastically as speed



## BikerJagi (Feb 19, 2015)

I am very amazed in Boxing of just how hard former heavy hitters in Boxing can still hit in their old age. My father (who Boxed as non-competitive amateur in his youth) told me one of the big advantages of having strong hitting power as opposed to speed is that when you start to get old you begin to lose your speed drastically but you remain a hard hitter in your old age even if you don't have nowhere as close to the original power you had in your prime. 

I mean Foreman WON the World Heavyweight Championship against Moorer in his 40s BY a KNOCK OUT to put as an example. 

This is a case of a Boxer coming out of retirement. I read of Dempsey absolutely ******* up the faces of some young punks who tried to commit robbery at his restaurant. LONG AFTER HE RETIRED and AFAIK he wasn't in shape either! 

I am very curious why punching power still remains albeit weaker than before but not lost like punching speed is.


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## KydeX (Feb 20, 2015)

Because punching power has more to do with technique and how much mass you can throw behind your punch, than how physically strong you are. 

When you have good technique, your whole body is behind the punch, not just your arm. So then the punching power will be a combination of speed and mass. 

If you can maintain your bodymass when you're getting older, most of the loss of power will come from the loss of speed.


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## Danny T (Feb 20, 2015)

KydeX said:


> Because punching power has more to do with technique and how much mass you can throw behind your punch, than how physically strong you are.
> 
> When you have good technique, your whole body is behind the punch, not just your arm. So then the punching power will be a combination of speed and mass.
> 
> If you can maintain your bodymass when you're getting older, most of the loss of power will come from the loss of speed.


Proper technique is also the reason when completely exhausted one is still able to generate knock out power.


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## Paul_D (Feb 24, 2015)

I would guess the key is getting the whole (or as much as possible) of your body weight into the punch (i.e your technique).  That why you see skinny guys knocking out bigger bully's in so many Youtube videos.

You might only have 45kgs of body weight, but if you get all of it into your punch, you are hitting someoen with 45kgs, which is more than enough to know them out.  That's why boxers, who have spent years getting their technique right will still be able to knock you out then they are older and not in shape.  They still have the technique to get as much of their bodyweight as possible into the punch.


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## Transk53 (Feb 26, 2015)

KydeX said:


> If you can maintain your bodymass when you're getting older, most of the loss of power will come from the loss of speed.



Then you would hone your punch to even greater perfection across the spectrum. Pick the strongest combination of strikes. Well at least when I am nearly falling down walking, that is what I am going to do. Loss of speed though, that is too bloody scary!!


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 26, 2015)

Muscle memory, throw a punch a couple thousand Alzheimer's patients was an ex-middle weight boxer who was at that time in his late 70s, walking with a walker and he could still hit damn hard. Could not move much at all but hit hard he could still do


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## Transk53 (Feb 26, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> Muscle memory, throw a punch a couple thousand Alzheimer's patients was an ex-middle weight boxer who was at that time in his late 70s, walking with a walker and he could still hit damn hard. Could not move much at all but hit hard he could still do



Some tectonic plates too!


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## stand-up-strike (Jun 1, 2015)

I agree, muscle memory and repetition never really leaves you...


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## Buka (Jun 1, 2015)

I'm going to take everyone's word on all this. I guess I'll see for myself when I get old.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 1, 2015)

BikerJagi said:


> I am very amazed in Boxing of just how hard former heavy hitters in Boxing can still hit in their old age.


When you get old, you may lose your speed, flexibility, endurance, but you will not lose your mass (if you keep eating hamburger). If you can bench press 200 lb when you are 20, you may still be able to bench press 200 lb when you are 80.

The "muscle memory" may apply on wrestling more than on boxing. A 20 years old Judo white bell still won't be able to take down a 60 years old Judo black belt.


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 1, 2015)

Buka said:


> I'm going to take everyone's word on all this. I guess I'll see for myself when I get old.



So you forgot that you got old? 
I will have to try doing that...


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## Buka (Jun 1, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> So you forgot that you got old?
> I will have to try doing that...



Dude, it's _so_ awesome!


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 1, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> So you forgot that you got old?
> I will have to try doing that...



Just so you know DD for future referance I am eternally 31!


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## Jenna (Jun 2, 2015)

If OP is true how does this work in terms of simple physics?

Force -which is what we are talking about in terms of physics not power- equals mass times acceleration, yes?

So if we are saying 

1. the MASS is the same (the fist does not add any appreciable mass) 
2. FORCE is the same in old age as it was always (the first point of the argument in this OP)
2. SPEED is reduced through aging (the second point of the argument in this OP)

my question then is HOW have we in our old age apparently reduced our speed of strike and yet maintained the acceleration of that strike that the FORCE upon impact is the same? how is my thinking incorrect in this?  it has been a while and I am rusty over simple physics/engineering equations.. It must be because I am getting old haha.  Can some one older and wiser (who has not yet lost all of their marbles like me) explain for me??  Thank you Jx.


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 2, 2015)

Jenna said:


> If OP is true how does this work in terms of simple physics?
> 
> Force -which is what we are talking about in terms of physics not power- equals mass times acceleration, yes?
> 
> ...



Mostly it's because it's not as simple as your formula. For example, the way TKD generates power requires the engagement of the whole body. If I'm throwing a punch from my rear hand, I can just punch with the arm. Or, I can push from the rear foot, rotate the hips and torso and then punch.
The effectiveness of a punch is also not *just* a matter of how hard you hit. More accurate targeting of vulnerable areas (which comes with experience) increases the effectiveness of the strike.
A weaker strike to the solar plexus can easily be more effective than a more powerful strike to the sternum or ribs.


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## Jenna (Jun 2, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> Mostly it's because it's not as simple as your formula. For example, the way TKD generates power requires the engagement of the whole body. If I'm throwing a punch from my rear hand, I can just punch with the arm. Or, I can push from the rear foot, rotate the hips and torso and then punch.
> The effectiveness of a punch is also not *just* a matter of how hard you hit. More accurate targeting of vulnerable areas (which comes with experience) increases the effectiveness of the strike.
> A weaker strike to the solar plexus can easily be more effective than a more powerful strike to the sternum or ribs.


Got it.. so it is more than just simple physics you are saying there are technical efficiencies and learned improvements that come with experience?  This is how as in OP power does not necessarily diminish with age?

We can adapt to hit every bit as hard when we are older can we use this knowledge to hit EVEN harder when we are younger or are there more inefficiencies in young practitioners?
Jx


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 2, 2015)

Jenna said:


> Got it.. so it is more than just simple physics you are saying there are technical efficiencies and learned improvements that come with experience?  This is how as in OP power does not necessarily diminish with age?
> 
> We can adapt to hit every bit as hard when we are older can we use this knowledge to hit EVEN harder when we are younger or are there more inefficiencies in young practitioners?
> Jx



I think it's physics and physiology, and although we may not hit as hard as we age, we can (to a point) offset that by hitting smarter.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jun 2, 2015)

Jenna said:


> If OP is true how does this work in terms of simple physics?
> 
> Force -which is what we are talking about in terms of physics not power- equals mass times acceleration, yes?
> 
> ...


To understand the answer to this, you have to get past the confusion many people have when they naively apply simple physics formulas formulas to complex biomechanical situations.

F = ma. Force = mass x acceleration. This is a fundamental concept in physics, and the one which seems most relevant to describing the impact of a strike. (There are other concepts, such as kinetic energy and momentum, which might be relevant - but let's keep it "simple" for now.)

Some people look at this equation and draw the conclusion that the speed of your punch is the most important determiner of its force. Other people draw the conclusion that your fist must actually be accelerating at the moment of impact to have any real force. These people are not understanding the application of the formula to real life.

Pop quiz: Master Ken throws a punch. At the moment before impact, his fist is travelling 30 meters per second and is still accelerating at 1 meter per second per second. His shoulder is traveling 10 meters per second and is no longer accelerating. His hips are traveling 3 meters per second and are actually slowing down at a rate of .3 meters per second per second. Master Ken weighs 90 kg and his fist weighs .5 kg. What is the force with which his punch impacts the target?


It's a trick question. There is not sufficient information given to answer the query. Even if I gave you the velocity, acceleration, and mass of each part of Master Ken's body, you still wouldn't have enough information.

For one thing, the a in f=ma has nothing to do with the forward acceleration of the punch before impact. To make that point clearer, imagine being struck by a car travelling 40 kph whose driver has already applied the brakes. The car is already slowing down when it hits you, but it still applies plenty of force by accelerating your body. (You could also view it as your body applying force to further decelerate the car.)

How do you calculate the force of the punch then? It's complicated. If your punch has poor alignment and your arm is floppy, then it won't transmit much force even if the fist is travelling very quickly. (Imagine the difference between being hit by a 1500 kg auto traveling at 40 kph and being hit by a 1500 kg cube of Jello travelling at 40 kph. Which are you more likely to survive?) Structure and body alignment make a huge difference, but there aren't any simple physics equations to describe those. Another factor is the movement of the target. Great strikers cause collisions, so that the target is moving into the strike at the moment of impact, adding more force.

Bottom line - an aged boxer will probably propel his punching fist at a slower speed than an young boxer of the same size and skill. This will reduce the force of the punch. However, that hand speed is a relatively small piece of the final result compared to technique and body alignment, so the old guy can still retain knockout power.


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## jks9199 (Jun 2, 2015)

Jenna said:


> If OP is true how does this work in terms of simple physics?
> 
> Force -which is what we are talking about in terms of physics not power- equals mass times acceleration, yes?
> 
> ...


Because that equation is not really accurate for punching or kicking.  A punch isn't really a simple thing to break the physics down on; there are multiple lever points involved and different ways and sequences to engage those levers (aka arms/legs).  I don't have the physics/engineering to break it down, but others have if you look around for it.


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## Jenna (Jun 2, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> To understand the answer to this, you have to get past the confusion many people have when they naively apply simple physics formulas formulas to complex biomechanical situations.
> 
> F = ma. Force = mass x acceleration. This is a fundamental concept in physics, and the one which seems most relevant to describing the impact of a strike. (There are other concepts, such as kinetic energy and momentum, which might be relevant - but let's keep it "simple" for now.)
> 
> ...


Awesome explanation.. Thank you Tony this makes it clear and easy to understand x

..as to your 1500kg jello cube monster.. I wonder have you been inspired to this from your vip screening of the new Ghostbusters movie or what?? lols..


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## paitingman (Jun 3, 2015)

Boxers always say punchers are BORN.

The technique argument doesn't hold up much when talking about boxing. In elite boxing, most everyones technique is phenomenal, but there are still people hailed as "punchers" who have devastating power, though with about the same mass and technique as any other in their weight class.

Freddie Roach said it had to do with the structure of a persons body. Just a natural born skeletal ratio that lent to easy leverage.


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## Buka (Jun 3, 2015)

In my old physics book it says... 
physics, noun - the branch of science concerned with the nature and properties of matter and energy. It goes on to say -

Force = AssWhooped squared.

Power = face times fists placed

Energy = pumped, plus coffee, black

Speed = blink and you die in the dark

End Game = whap, splat, like that.

Law of Motion = A body at rest will stay at rest. Also called a rear naked choke.


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## Jenna (Jun 3, 2015)

Buka said:


> In my old physics book it says...
> physics, noun - the branch of science concerned with the nature and properties of matter and energy. It goes on to say -
> 
> Force = AssWhooped squared.
> ...


Man if I had had physics books like that school would have been so much less boring! I am imagining how fun your class experiments must have been!  Jxx


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