# What is Ninjutsu?



## Bob Hubbard (Sep 1, 2010)

I'm opening the door here to a serious crapstorm.

Wikipedia defines Ninjutsu as thus: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninjutsu


> _*Ninjutsu*_ (&#24525;&#34899;?) sometimes used interchangeably with the term _ninp&#333;_ (&#24525;&#27861;?) is the martial art, strategy, and tactics of unconventional warfare and guerrilla warfare as well as the art of espionage purportedly practiced by the _shinobi_ (commonly known outside of Japan as _ninja_).[1]
> While there are several styles of "modern ninjutsu," the historicity and lineage of these styles is disputed.


Wiki also defines Shinobi or Ninja as: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninja


> A *ninja* or _*shinobi*_ (&#24525;&#32773; or &#24525;&#12403;?) was a covert agent or mercenary of feudal Japan specializing in unorthodox arts of war. The functions of the ninja included espionage, sabotage, infiltration, and assassination, as well as open combat in certain situations.[1] The ninja, using covert methods of waging war, were contrasted with the samurai, who had strict rules about honor and combat.[2]


Going by a very strict interpretation of this, we can reason that there are no ninja around today, since Japan is no longer a feudal nation, nor are there currently warring families in need of such agents.

Their arts however do continue to exist, though some branches are controversial and surrounded by much disinformation and misunderstanding.

The modern Ninja would be someone who trains in the arts, skills, strategies and tactics of Ninjutsu. 

But what is Ninjutsu today?

Some would argue that it is simply a name, that lends itself to whatever you want it to fit, from modern covert skills, to running around the back yard in black pj's kicking tires and trees.

For the sake of opening debate, I submit these simple terms.

To be considered Ninjutsu an art must:
- Have a verifiable connection to Japan.
- Have a verifiable connection to a legitimate ninjutsu family

To date, only 3 systems have fit this definition here: Bujinkan, Genbukan, Jinenkan. We do not consider Ashida Kim, Count Dante, Frank Dux or Rick Tew's arts as Ninjutsu.

But what of these?

Quest Centers
Tenshin Sh&#333;den Katori Shint&#333;-ry&#363;
AKBAN
Banke Shinobinoden
Nindo Ryu School of Bujutsu
Bansenshukai Ninjutsu
Modern Ninjitsu
Ninja Senshi Ryu
Some are additional splinters from the 'Xkan's. Others claim different connections.

So, what should a style have as credentials to be "real"?


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## Bruno@MT (Sep 1, 2010)

You assessment is correct in my opinion. No ninja today, but the arts continue to exist. And in order for something to be taught as ninjutsu, it should be a legit transmission of the art as it was transmitted by the ninja themselves. Otherwise, there is not really a point to using that moniker, is there?

Of course, the reason for unjustly using that moniker is to gain popularity or mystery by playing to the stereotype.

Now, from the list above, I am on the fence about Banke Shinobinoden, for a couple of reasons. It is true that there is very little 'proof' that what they do is actual ninjutsu. However, it is at least possible for the following reasons: they are Japanese and have a possible connection to actual practitioner, and more importantly: what they do has the look and feel of a genuine system, transmitted in an authentic manner.

The last part was mentioned By Meik Skoss. Arguably, he is not an authority on ninjutsu, but he is an authority on general koryu issues. If he says that what they do has the look and feel of a genuine system, then it is not a far leap to say that they do have _something_ authentic. And if they call it ninjutsu and if it resembles ninjutsu, it is at least possible that it actually is authentic ninjutsu.

As for the splinter orgs: to call what they do ninjutsu, there are 3 criteria
1) off shoot of an X kan
2) the person starting the org should have gotten a complete transmission in the Xkan.
3) the teaching in the off shoot should remain true to the teachings from the original Xkan

Anything else, and it is a safe bet to say that 'ninjutsu' is just their buzzword and not related to authentic ninjutsu at all.


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## Archangel M (Sep 1, 2010)

I wonder. Would modern special ops guys like Delta with all of their skills have qualified as a "way" if they could step in a time machine back to feudal Japan? Besides their antiquity, their novelty and their mysteriousness, what makes the ninja/ninjutsu somehow more kick *** than modern military/espionage operatives?


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## Bruno@MT (Sep 1, 2010)

That is easy: the draw of the ninja ways are the myths and legends, as well as ancient weaponry.

Would spec ops have been recognized as a way... I don't know. You have to keep in mind it is more than just the techniques. Ninjutsu was a way of life, secrecy, traditional transmission, ...  Ninjutsu was the combination of all those things, including the underlying concepts that define the fighting and survival skills. 

Would your spec ops guys be recognized as ninja? I don't know. But given that all spec ops teams around the world are made up of people for whom their 'art' is a way of life, have ways of transmitting their teachings in a uniform way, have an underlying philosophy to their art.... I think that they would fit in under a distinct moniker, be it 'ninjutsu' or something else.


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 1, 2010)

Since I began posting on MT, I have learned a lot about the martial arts generally termed 'ninjutsu'.  I have a much more open mind about practitioners than I did before.  Still don't know much, but I get the general idea.  My hat is off to serious practitioners; they must have cast-iron self-confidence to be able to endure both the giggle-factor from the general public as well as the endless questions from overly imaginative but enthusiastic would-be ninjer pimple-faced 'youts' who never dated a woman that didn't have to be inflated.


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## Omar B (Sep 1, 2010)

Interesting Bill.  Though I don't see the whole ninja thing as that separate from karate in most of the public's eyes.  Usually someone hears karate and they start making Bruce Lee noises and bouncing around, most people don't even know the difference between karate and kung fu.  

That reminds me, I once read this hilarious review of the GI Joe movie where the author clearly knew nothign about martial arts.  He constantly talked about Snakes Eyes learning ninjutsu from some old "Kung Fu guy."  There's a lot of ignorance when it comes to the martial arts, within the community yes, but a heck of a lot more without.


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 1, 2010)

Omar B said:


> Interesting Bill.  Though I don't see the whole ninja thing as that separate from karate in most of the public's eyes.  Usually someone hears karate and they start making Bruce Lee noises and bouncing around, most people don't even know the difference between karate and kung fu.



Most of the people I know seem to equate 'karate' with TKD.  Not a few of them tell me _"Oh yeah, I took TKD as a kid!"_  However, they seem to think of 'ninjas' as movie stuff of teenage mutant turtles.

In my own experience here on MT, I have seen an awful lot of serious discussion of what it clearly the 'real' art of ninjutsu, as well as a lot of posts by what appear to be kids or adults with maturity issues looking for the most awesomest ninja sword or tattoo or asking if ninjas can really climb walls, jump backwards into trees, or become invisible.  In support of that, I note "Ask a Ninja" is not "Ask a Karateka."



> That reminds me, I once read this hilarious review of the GI Joe movie where the author clearly knew nothign about martial arts.  He constantly talked about Snakes Eyes learning ninjutsu from some old "Kung Fu guy."  There's a lot of ignorance when it comes to the martial arts, within the community yes, but a heck of a lot more without.



It's all good.  I sincerely mean no offense.  This has just been my observation and opinion.


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## Omar B (Sep 1, 2010)

What offense?  Observe away.


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## Bester (Sep 1, 2010)

You can compare the functions of a special op team to the role of the historical ninja. But just because someone does the same job in a similar way, it doesn't mean they deserve the same title. Ninjutsu is a Japanese art, with Japanese roots, period.


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## Archangel M (Sep 1, 2010)

Well, Im not saying that they "are ninja". That would be silly. But what is it that the ninja did that our modern "warriors" can't do now? And what makes their "way" so much more advanced or desired than what can be offered in modern times?


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 1, 2010)

Archangel M said:


> Well, Im not saying that they "are ninja". That would be silly. But what is it that the ninja did that our modern "warriors" can't do now? And what makes their "way" so much more advanced or desired than what can be offered in modern times?


 
If you look at modern spec ops, etc. they have in general far less hand to hand combat skills.  Of course they have great weapon skills that are current with today's standards.  That is one of their specialities.  Mental fortitude, working behind enemy lines, etc. create for a lot of similarities.  Yet in the end the ancient Japanese warriors were just that ancient Japanese warriors and today's military elite are today's military elite.   There are similarities and yet lots of differences!


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## Archangel M (Sep 2, 2010)

I know that line troops get almost useless H2h training, but some of the alphabet soup guys do get some pretty extensive combative training. Enough to build a system? Well no, but much like the "real Ninja" probably were. They concentrate on accomplishing their mission. All the skills and weapons are just tools. I guess my question is why do we modern people tend to think that Ninjutsu is something that has no modern equivalent?


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## Archangel M (Sep 2, 2010)

The question I am trying to get to is why would a modern man/woman want to learn "Ninjutsu" instead of finding training in H2H, modern weaponcraft, espionage tradecraft etc? If Im not mistaken, even the Soke himself isnt teaching "Ninjutsu". Can any modern person really become a "ninja" these days anyway? I think you would have better odds at becoming a Delta Operator or a SEAL.


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## Bruno@MT (Sep 2, 2010)

Archangel M said:


> The question I am trying to get to is why would a modern man/woman want to learn "Ninjutsu" instead of finding training in H2H, modern weaponcraft, espionage tradecraft etc? If Im not mistaken, even the Soke himself isnt teaching "Ninjutsu". Can any modern person really become a "ninja" these days anyway? I think you would have better odds at becoming a Delta Operator or a SEAL.



Would you 'want' to learn ninjutsu instead of the modern equivalent?
That really depends on what you are trying to achieve. If you want to be active as a professional in the field of spec ops, then I would encourage you to seek out the modern equivalent because the problems that need solving today are not the problems that had to be solved yesteryear, and the skills which were valuable then are not the skills which would be valuable now.

And if you would want to make ninjutsu useful for today, you would have to make quite a lot of changes to it in order to be relevant to the field of spec ops. Even if you want to apply the arts to self defense, you need to make changes to the way it is trained because the assumptions and attacks of today are different from those a couple hundred years ago in feudal Japan.

However, there are also people who want to learn the art for the sake of learning the art. People like me for example. I learn the traditional JMA because I love them. Because they teach me a specific approach towards fighting, because they teach me things about myself, ... because I get things out of them that I find valuable.

It's a bit like people wanting to learn archery like it was practiced a long time ago. I did that as well. I learned to shoot a wooden bow without stabilisers, sights or any of the dozen other things that are used in modern bows. I did that because I loved doing it like that, not because I cared about getting the smallest possible arrow grouping that is achievable by using the best modern technology. And while I was quite good and sometimes my grouping was as tight as 2 inches on 25 yards, on average the guys with modern compound bows would shoot a -much- tighter grouping over a larger distance.

The same applies to the original art of ninjutsu imo.


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## Archangel M (Sep 2, 2010)

Nice explination!


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## Chris Parker (Sep 2, 2010)

Hey Bob,



Bob Hubbard said:


> I'm opening the door here to a serious crapstorm.


 
Ha, cool. Let's have some fun, then, shall we?



Bob Hubbard said:


> Wikipedia defines Ninjutsu as thus: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninjutsu
> Wiki also defines Shinobi or Ninja as: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninja
> Going by a very strict interpretation of this, we can reason that there are no ninja around today, since Japan is no longer a feudal nation, nor are there currently warring families in need of such agents.


 
Well, far be it from me to challenge wiki as a source.... but to be frank, that is a limited definition. For example, it is currently thought, or believed, that many who were classified as Shinobi no Mono, Ninja, Rappa, Suppa, or some other variant, were Samurai themselves, either deposed in some way, or simply acting in a less-than-romantically-idealised way. That said, there also seems to be quite a bit of evidence of factions not necessarily related to the Samurai who lay some claim to that legacy as well. Hmm, a little complicated, isn't it?

Of course, the last comment about there being no "ninja" around these days, that is absolutely correct. There are people practicing the arts, but that, honestly, doesn't make them (or me.... aw, sad, my little ideal is all burst....) "ninja", any more than training with a sword makes you a Samurai (a distinct social class that was abolished with the Meiji Restoration of 1862).



Bob Hubbard said:


> Their arts however do continue to exist, though some branches are controversial and surrounded by much disinformation and misunderstanding.
> 
> The modern Ninja would be someone who trains in the arts, skills, strategies and tactics of Ninjutsu.


 
Er, no. That would be a practitioner of Ninjutsu, not a Ninja. Subtle, but important difference.



Bob Hubbard said:


> But what is Ninjutsu today?
> 
> Some would argue that it is simply a name, that lends itself to whatever you want it to fit, from modern covert skills, to running around the back yard in black pj's kicking tires and trees.


 
They may, but that is the same as arguing that my Mazda is a Maserati. Doesn't make it so (although one day....). And, uh, "kicking" tyres? 



Bob Hubbard said:


> For the sake of opening debate, I submit these simple terms.
> 
> To be considered Ninjutsu an art must:
> - Have a verifiable connection to Japan.
> ...


 
You have learned much, young Bob.... Although I may question the last one. For that, you need to define "ninjutsu family", and that I don't think is that easy. A connection to a legitimate Ninjutsu Ryu-ha, on the other hand, is what I would look for. For clarity, a family is "ke", a clan is "gumi", and a Ryu is "style", although the best way to understand it is to realise that the character for "ryu" is also pronounced "nagashi", and means "flow". In other words, a Ryu is the flow of the teachings that make up it's character and approach, passing (flowing) from one generation down to the next, and down from the Ryuso (founder) to the current students and teachers of the knowledge.




Bob Hubbard said:


> But what of these?






Bob Hubbard said:


> Quest Centers



Founded by Steven Hayes, who got his schooling from Hatsumi Masaaki, and Tanemura Tsunehisa (Shoto), providing a link back to Japan and the Ryu associated with the traditions of Ninjutsu. Removed from the Japanese approach, but still within reach to make a claim.




Bob Hubbard said:


> Tenshin Sh&#333;den Katori Shint&#333;-ry&#363;



Ah, my favourite. Has that become apparent? Sorry... Right, Katori Shinto Ryu is a Sogo Bujutsu (composite martial art school) focusing on the use of the sword, but including many other areas, including higher level teachings in esoteric studies such as Ninjutsu. However the approach to Ninjutsu here is very different, it is used more to refer to counter-espionage than actual use of Ninjutsu skills. You may almost think of it as anti-Ninjutsu, really. The Ninjutsu portion of the curriculum makes up very little of the teachings from all accounts, and is taught by direct transmission via word of mouth (Kuden, oral tranmission). Not a Ninjutsu system, but a system that incorporates knowledge of Ninjutsu within it's teachings.




Bob Hubbard said:


> AKBAN



Originally bases it's approach on the teachings of Doron Navon, the first Western instructor under Hatsumi Masaaki. These days it incorporates a number of other sources and influences (such as Judo and TKD), removing it from the original Ninjutsu aspects. However, the connection to the established Japanese art is definately there. Gets a pass, but be aware that just because the Ninjutsu traditions are taught, doesn't make everything there related to these Japanese systems.




Bob Hubbard said:


> Banke Shinobinoden



Ah, interesting. My instinct is no, honestly. There's just too much that doesn't "feel" right in the actions of the systems, despite them being able to give an approach that is very akin to the way such a system would be passed down. But the best evidence they have presented so far includes that they don't claim to be an old system (koryu), they have the support of the Museum they are honorary curators of, and they have a vocal supporter in Spain (although his claims tend to disagree with the claims of Kawakami Jinichi and the Banke Shinobinoden themselves). Oh, and to break it down, Banke is "Ban family (ke)", a famous old Ninja family, and Shinobinoden is simply "Shinobi/Nin(ja) transmissions (no den)". Without being able to demonstrate why their traditions are related to the Ban family (which I have heard a few different explainations of, including a reference to the Bansenshukai, a classic treatise on the subject, not related to the Ban family at all), I'm left less than convinced.




Bob Hubbard said:


> Nindo Ryu School of Bujutsu



Hmm. While Carlos has an old link to Tanemura and Bo Munthe (himself not without controversy, by the way...), he has gone more and more to unsubstantiated "Koga" style teachings. My feeling is that this group has long left any links to anything close to legit, so I'd go with no again.




Bob Hubbard said:


> Bansenshukai Ninjutsu



The Bansenshukai guys certainly have the links back to the Japanese traditions, so they're in the same kind of boat as Toshindo. A pass, to my mind.




Bob Hubbard said:


> Modern Ninjitsu



South African Koga Ninjutsu? Uh, no.




Bob Hubbard said:


> Ninja Senshi Ryu



Ah, these guys. Don't know them personally, but from the clips I watched with their "rescue of muggers" publicity, they actually seem to be an offshoot from my schools. There's a fair amount of fantasy in their approach, but it seems to have links back to Japan through us (when they left, judging on their syllabus and class approach) we were still part of the Bujinkan.

While I'm here, I'll add us as well www.ninjutsuaustralia.com  Well, I'm going to give us a pass here, as well. The link is back to Japan through Hatsumi Masaaki and Nagato Toshiro, and the teachings for the traditional approach we take is based on the Bujinkan Ryu-ha as we understand them (Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu, Togakure Ryu, Kukishinden Ryu, and the Ten Chi Jin Ryaku no Maki. We do sometimes bring in the more "samurai" systems as well, but the focus for us is on the Ninjutsu-related systems).



Bob Hubbard said:


> Some are additional splinters from the 'Xkan's. Others claim different connections.


 
There are a few other Koryu who have Ninjutsu aspects in their teachings, but if there is not a connection to one of those, or directly to Takamatsu via Hatsumi, Tanemura, Manaka, then it doesn't get a pass.



Bob Hubbard said:


> So, what should a style have as credentials to be "real"?


 
The above listed connections, really. To give my definitions, though, a Ninjutsu system is more defined by it's historical connections and usage than it's physical technologies (although those techical approaches must be congruent with the claims, and the less-legit simply aren't). As a result, it is impossible to create a "new" Ninjutsu system, the same way you cannot create any new Baroque music outside of the Baroque period. You can create Baroque-inspired music, but that is different.



Archangel M said:


> I wonder. Would modern special ops guys like Delta with all of their skills have qualified as a "way" if they could step in a time machine back to feudal Japan? Besides their antiquity, their novelty and their mysteriousness, what makes the ninja/ninjutsu somehow more kick *** than modern military/espionage operatives?


 
Would spec. ops guys be considered the equivalent of Ninja? Bluntly, no. Not at all. This supposition has a lack of understanding of what the Ninja were, as well as what the Special Forces are today, they are both very different. To begin with, it's really a mistake to get caught up in "all their skills". Most evidence indicates that the "average ninja field agent" was probably about 16 years old (same as Samurai being considered men at 15, and often on the battlefield before that), and would not really be skilled in anywhere near as many areas as shown in modern media, or even as taught in schools these days (frankly, I mean that to refer to the Ninjutsu schools, but they wouldn't be as schooled in as wide a range of subjects as a modern Western High School student).

The next thing to consider is the underlying reasons for why these skills are developed. For the Spec. Forces guys, it's part of a career, a military speciality. This is more in line with high ranked Samurai than Ninja.

As to whether or not their skills would be considered a "way", well, a "way" can be found in anything. But the concept there is an Asian one, so a Western military professional probably wouldn't think that way. And again, the "skills" are less important here, the "way" aspect is seperate from that. Oh, and Ninja are more kickass because, um, er.... can I get back to you on that one?


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## Dean Whittle (Sep 5, 2010)

Just to add a little more to the Ninja Senshi ryu part ... this school is taught by Kaylan Soto, a gentlemen who trained with me in 2001 for 12mths, achieving a 6th kyu rank. He then trained in the Bujinkan for some years gaining a Sandan (3rd degree) under Andrew Beattie. He may have undertaken more training since then, but 'google-jutsu' doesn't reveal anything further 

He operates his school as an independent dojo, unaffiliated with any of the larger x-kans.

With respect


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## Vulcan (Sep 6, 2010)

*golf clap* Excellent post Chris. Your scholar bu came in really handy here.


I would like to hear what's missing from the conversation and definition. Namely, the cultural, spiritual, and anthropological aspects of Ninpo, which I consider more relevant to the uniqueness of their way (or the legend thereof) .

Taijutsu  has a lot of parallels in other hand to hand combat styles (was hand to hand combat the essence of Ninjutsu anyway?...not sure about this), but (my understanding) of the Ninpo approach to Mikky&#333; (&#23494;&#25945 seems to be different from the way it is approached in other schools of thought that incorporate martial arts, Buddhism, Chinese philosophy/Tai Chi/Tao Te Ching/Kung Fu (yes, these things heavily influenced/inspired Ninjutsu it seems from the parallels ) such as S&#333;hei and Yamabushi (or even Samurai with Zen teachers, such as the Yagy&#363; clan ).




 It's quite early for me to drag out the tomes, but later I will contribute more. 

Flame away.*takes cover in a cloud of metsubishi smoke*


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## Chris Parker (Sep 6, 2010)

Hi James,



Vulcan said:


> *golf clap* Excellent post Chris. Your scholar bu came in really handy here.


 
Thanks. 



Vulcan said:


> I would like to hear what's missing from the conversation and definition. Namely, the cultural, spiritual, and anthropological aspects of Ninpo, which I consider more relevant to the uniqueness of their way (or the legend thereof) .


 
Ah, now here is where it all gets a little muddy... One thing to remember is that you are dealing with a range of disparate groups all under this umbrella heading here, and different groupings would be influenced by different things and aspects in different measures. For example, Togakure Ryu is said to have been highly influenced by the Shugendo practices of ascetics on Togakure Yama, but that doesn't mean that it was a major, or even minor influence on other groups and systems.



Vulcan said:


> Taijutsu has a lot of parallels in other hand to hand combat styles (was hand to hand combat the essence of Ninjutsu anyway?...not sure about this), but (my understanding) of the Ninpo approach to Mikky&#333; (&#23494;&#25945 seems to be different from the way it is approached in other schools of thought that incorporate martial arts, Buddhism, Chinese philosophy/Tai Chi/Tao Te Ching/Kung Fu (yes, these things heavily influenced/inspired Ninjutsu it seems from the parallels ) such as S&#333;hei and Yamabushi (or even Samurai with Zen teachers, such as the Yagy&#363; clan ).


 
Ah, Mikkyo.... that has been a cause of some consternation in the Ninjutsu community for many years now. Essentially, Steven Hayes has been the biggest promoter of this idea, coming from his own personal journey, and loosely supported by any other evidence. In fact, there are many stories about Western students asking the Japanese Shihan about Mikkyo and it's importance in Ninpo, only to get the rather illusion shattering "What's that?" in reply.

In regard to your influences to Ninjutsu, well, let's go through those, shall we? Japan is unusual (particularly from a Western point of view) in that a person can be said to have various religious following, in other words, it's considered perfectly fine and normal to be multi-theistic. You can be a Buddhist, and Shintoist at once, with no contradiction whatsoever. So most people have a fair amount of exposure to each of the traditions and belief systems, so that will be an influence on pretty much everything. Add to that the way that China was looked to for much of early Japans history as the source for knowledge and refinement, and the way that a person was considered learned was that they knew the 5 Chinese Classics, which included the Tao Te Ching and Sun Tzu, and we see that what you're really saying here is that Buddhism, Confusionism, Chinese Philosophy, along with Shinto, were influences on most things Japanese, including Ninjutsu and other martial arts. Yep, agreed. Tai Chi and Kung Fu being an influence though? Uh, no. There you're stretching things a little far (for one thing, Kung Fu is an overall term, not a specific thing, and can be used to apply to anything, a street sweeper could be said to have good street-sweeping Kung Fu, and Tai Chi came along later).

The myth of Sohei was debunked a few years ago, and Yamabushi was used as a term for again quite a range of groups, ranging from farming Samurai groups, to Shugenja ascetics, to Sennin practitioners, and so on.

Oh, and with regards to your comments on Taijutsu, well, yes. But it should also be remembered that Taijutsu is not an exclusive term to Ninjutsu-related systems (Asayama Ichiden Ryu refer to their unarmed system as Taijutsu, and Sugino Yoshio of the Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu refered to his early training in Judo and Aikido as giving him the basis for his studies of the sword, and refered to it as Taijutsu as well). A number of other systems have also used it, or variants of it, over the centuries. But no, I feel that unarmed combat was never the essence of the Ninjutsu-related arts, and that that is just one expression of them. In fact, evidence suggests that systems such as Koto Ryu and Gyokko Ryu had extensive weaponry syllabus', but only the unarmed have survived to be passed down. And if we are going to get technical in the systems that have survived, Togakure Ryu is the most "ninja" of all of the systems, and it is far more focused on escape and armed combat than on unarmed, which is really only a small part of it's teachings. It's far more concerned with avoiding conflict, really.


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## Vulcan (Sep 6, 2010)

Chris Parker said:


> [snip] Togakure Ryu is the most "ninja" of all of the systems, and it is far more focused on escape and armed combat than on unarmed, which is really only a small part of it's teachings. It's far more concerned with avoiding conflict, really.





That's awesome. Reflects my mind's eye view.



Glad I didn't spread too many misconceptions with my post.:uhyeah:


Thank you for your teaching.


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## xJOHNx (Sep 6, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> 3) the teaching in the off shoot should remain true to the teachings from the original Xkan


The original Xkan of both Genbukan and Jinenkan is Bujinkan... But both do not remain true to it's teachings... 

Not trying to open a jar of storm, just trying to understand as politics between the three has never been my strongest point.


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## Vulcan (Sep 6, 2010)

xJOHNx said:


> The original Xkan of both Genbukan and Jinenkan is Bujinkan... But both do not remain true to it's teachings...
> 
> Not trying to open a jar of storm, just trying to understand as politics between the three has never been my strongest point.





What do you mean? They do not stand by the things they teach, or they do not teach the things they stand by? Not true how? In what sense?


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## xJOHNx (Sep 6, 2010)

As far as I understand it: every soke of it's own respective system has given it's own flair to it.
So it's not longer completely the same, so not completely true.

(I do know that they all have menko kayden, I was just trying to understand it a bit more).


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## Vulcan (Sep 6, 2010)

xJOHNx said:


> As far as I understand it: every soke of it's own respective system has given it's own flair to it.
> So it's not longer completely the same, so not completely true.
> 
> (I do know that they all have menko kayden, I was just trying to understand it a bit more).




True to what? What is the original standard for Ninjutsu?


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## Vulcan (Sep 6, 2010)

Can anyone report on the Youtube school of Choson Ninja? 


Was there ever a Korean school, historically speaking?


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## Omar B (Sep 6, 2010)

Vulcan said:


> Can anyone report on the Youtube school of Choson Ninja?
> Was there ever a Korean school, historically speaking?



He's just some youtube nut.


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## Bruno@MT (Sep 7, 2010)

xJOHNx said:


> The original Xkan of both Genbukan and Jinenkan is Bujinkan... But both do not remain true to it's teachings...
> 
> Not trying to open a jar of storm, just trying to understand as politics between the three has never been my strongest point.



You are totally right, but in their cases that is of no importance because the head teachers of those organizations (Tanemura sensei and Manaka sensei) have menkyo kaiden in the various ryuha that are taught within their organization. Such people are automatically legit in what they teach because they can trace their menky kaiden back to Takamatsu sensei.

My point was about organizations like Chris' who split off from Bujinkan without having a head teacher with menkyo kaiden.


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## Bruno@MT (Sep 7, 2010)

Vulcan said:


> True to what? What is the original standard for Ninjutsu?



That is very simple: does the person hold menkyo kaiden in a ryuha that traces back to a legit practicioner. For all intents and purposes, all lineage should trace back to Takamatsu sensei because he was the last remaining person who was a legit (meaning with a complete transmission of the arts) practicioner.


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## Chris Parker (Sep 7, 2010)

Okay, to cover and clarify a few things here...



Vulcan said:


> What do you mean? They do not stand by the things they teach, or they do not teach the things they stand by? Not true how? In what sense?


 
No, nothing like that. I think what xJOHNx was refering to was that the Genbukan and Jinenkan are not taught the same way that the Bujinkan is. Realistically, the Bujinkan is it's own martial art (Budo Taijutsu), seperate from the Ryu that make up it's syllabus and sources. By contrast, the Genbukan and Jinenkan are more concerned with teaching the Ryu themselves properly.



xJOHNx said:


> As far as I understand it: every soke of it's own respective system has given it's own flair to it.
> So it's not longer completely the same, so not completely true.
> 
> (I do know that they all have menko kayden, I was just trying to understand it a bit more).


 


Bruno@MT said:


> You are totally right, but in their cases that is of no importance because the head teachers of those organizations (Tanemura sensei and Manaka sensei) have menkyo kaiden in the various ryuha that are taught within their organization. Such people are automatically legit in what they teach because they can trace their menky kaiden back to Takamatsu sensei.
> 
> My point was about organizations like Chris' who split off from Bujinkan without having a head teacher with menkyo kaiden.


 
Just to absolutely clarify here, Manaka Sensei does not have Menkyo Kaiden in all six of the Bujinkan Ryuha he teaches. He holds Menkyo Kaiden in Gyokko, Koto, and I believe Shinden Fudo Ryu, not Takagi Yoshin, Kukishinden, or Togakure. These Menkyo Kaiden were given out by Hatsumi to Manaka and Tanemura at a time when Hatsumi believed he was dying, and wanted to ensure the arts continued, and there has been conjecture as to how "complete" the transmission actually was. This is not to imply that their knowledge or skill is lacking in any way (as these licences were given many years before the Jinenkan was formed, and Tanemura's Menkyo Kaiden licences come from Hatsumi and other sources), just to give a little more detail as to what their Menkyo's actually are.

In regards to us, and others that have split off without Menkyo Kaiden, well Hatsumi doesn't seem to be issueing them these days, so it is highly unlikely that any split-offs would hold such licences (the Genbukan/KJJR, I believe, are the only ones still using the older licencing system), so I don't know how much we can rely on that system anymore. Before Hatsumi, certainly.



Vulcan said:


> True to what? What is the original standard for Ninjutsu?


 


Bruno@MT said:


> That is very simple: does the person hold menkyo kaiden in a ryuha that traces back to a legit practicioner. For all intents and purposes, all lineage should trace back to Takamatsu sensei because he was the last remaining person who was a legit (meaning with a complete transmission of the arts) practicioner.


 
Leaving off the Menkyo Kaiden aspect these days (as aside from Tanemura Sensei it seems to have been abandoned in favour of the Kyu/Dan grading system), as Bruno said, it has to be able to trace itself back to Takamatsu and not be adding outside influences that are incongruent with the art itself. As soon as you add other aspects, you are removing from the art itself.



Vulcan said:


> Can anyone report on the Youtube school of Choson Ninja?
> 
> 
> Was there ever a Korean school, historically speaking?


 
Okay, I'm going to suggest a quick use of the "Search" function, there are a number of threads about him. In essence, though, he has no legit training, runs an online dojo, alters all historical sources to suit his argument, and gives outrightly incorrect information. And he does all of this under the guise of being open and spiritually good (some interpretations of Greg Parks name there, Choson Ninja, include it's similarity to "Chosen" Ninja, although it is more literally "Korean" Ninja). But that does not change the fact that he has nothing to do with actual Ninjutsu, and his versions of history (claiming Korean Ninjutsu, even going so far as to claim Korea as the place where it developed, with the Japanese then taking the idea) are frankly so far out that they become laughable. Not someone to listen to.


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## Bruno@MT (Sep 7, 2010)

Chris Parker said:


> Just to absolutely clarify here, Manaka Sensei does not have Menkyo Kaiden in all six of the Bujinkan Ryuha he teaches. He holds Menkyo Kaiden in Gyokko, Koto, and I believe Shinden Fudo Ryu, not Takagi Yoshin, Kukishinden, or Togakure. These Menkyo Kaiden were given out by Hatsumi to Manaka and Tanemura at a time when Hatsumi believed he was dying, and wanted to ensure the arts continued, and there has been conjecture as to how "complete" the transmission actually was. This is not to imply that their knowledge or skill is lacking in any way (as these licences were given many years before the Jinenkan was formed, and Tanemura's Menkyo Kaiden licences come from Hatsumi and other sources), just to give a little more detail as to what their Menkyo's actually are.



I recall a newspaper article saying that Manaka sensei had menkyo kaiden in Togakure ryu as well. And according to the Jinenkan website this does seem to be the case. In the others it seems that he received 'only' menkyo.



Chris Parker said:


> In regards to us, and others that have split off without Menkyo Kaiden, well Hatsumi doesn't seem to be issueing them these days, so it is highly unlikely that any split-offs would hold such licences (the Genbukan/KJJR, I believe, are the only ones still using the older licencing system), so I don't know how much we can rely on that system anymore. Before Hatsumi, certainly.



We use both. There is a general kyu / dan curriculum based off of the arts to which Tanemura sensei holds menky kaiden. From Black belt on, one can pursue licensing in the individual arts, and at a certain point, it becomes a requirement to attain traditional licensing before you can get another dan rank. The purpose of Genbukan is to preserve the arts themselves.

By using this setup, Tanemura sensei is able to grow the entire organization and prepare people for licensing via the kyu / dan curriculum without risking too much people running off with actual licenses. I suppose that by the time you get to the point of attaining traditional licenses, you have proven yourself.

Personally, I think that this issue is also what led Hatsumi sensei to stop the traditional licensing to prevent more people from running off and making an even bigger mess of the ninjutsu world.

I think that the original system should be maintained because it ensures that there is always someone who can be considered to have a complete understanding of said art. And while it seems to be true that Hatsumi sensei does not hand them out anymore these days, I think that he will fully license his successor in order to keep the arts 'in the family', and because I think he would not want to cut off the original lines passed down to him from Takamatsu sensei.


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## Muawijhe (Sep 7, 2010)

Chris Parker said:


> The myth of Sohei was debunked a few years ago, and Yamabushi was used as a term for again quite a range of groups, ranging from farming Samurai groups, to Shugenja ascetics, to Sennin practitioners, and so on.


 
Got a link to the debunking of the Sohei myth? I seemed to have missed that party, and am curious to finding more information.


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## Chris Parker (Sep 7, 2010)

Hey Bruno,

Thanks for the Jinenkan link, I'd heard different from different sources. Think I'll trust the Jinenkan one, though...

And for the record, my prefered is the Menkyo system, so I prefer the Genbukan ranking system over the others, it's just not used by the other groups (including my own).

Muawijhe, the book to look for is "The Teeth and Arms of the Buddha: Monastic Warriors and Sohei in Japanese History" by Mikeal Adolphson, available as a download here: http://www.ebookee.com/The-Teeth-an...ors-and-Sohei-in-Japanese-History_698773.html (thanks to Steve Delaney for pointing this out elsewhere, by the way).


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## jks9199 (Sep 7, 2010)

Just a thought about ninjutsu in general...

We probably have, at best, an incomplete snapshot of what the ninja were and how they came about in Japan, and where they fit culturally.  There are lots of reasons for this, ranging from internal secrecy within the various ninjutsu ryu to the effect of trying to force fit two cultures together to make the comparison, compounded by pop culture myth-making.  Let me compare it to the American cowboy for a moment...  

Everyone knows what a cowboy was, right?  He would rope and ride, carried a six-shooter and could shoot with the best, spent more time with his own horse than any wife or girlfriend...  Spent most of his time on the range, sleeping under the stars and cooking over a campfire.  Right?  Well... not really.  There's a lot wrong with that...  Among other things... few owned their own horse!  They'd ride one of several horses that belonged to the ranch, spent as much time in a bunkhouse as on the trail -- if not more.  And gunfights?  They didn't look anything like most portrayals in Westerns...

Same thing, I'm sure, has happened with the ninja.


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## Muawijhe (Sep 7, 2010)

Thanks for the link, Chris. I appreciate it. I'll check it out.

And jks9199, I like the analogy of the cowboy. All to fitting it its own way.


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## emiliozapata (Sep 8, 2010)

'll chime in here with my own observations. Despite the fact that many people feel that they actually practice "real" ninjutsu, there is no such thing. The evidence to the contrary far outweighs whatever obscure texts they think legitimizes their "system". Commercialism is actually the basis for most of their exclusivity. I don't object to their belief in their exclusivity, however they remind me of overzealous religionists who proclaim their path as the only true method of salvation.

Any historical ninjas need to be taken in the context of tribal and clan societies, and in the overall spirit of human adaptation to their environment. To think that a group of humans engaged in a self preservation method and then standardized and codified it is no great stretch, but to think that their methods cannot be observed and obtained on another path is folly.

The concepts and rationales of something are far more important than the titles.


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## MJS (Sep 8, 2010)

emiliozapata said:


> 'll chime in here with my own observations. Despite the fact that many people feel that they actually practice "real" ninjutsu, there is no such thing. The evidence to the contrary far outweighs whatever obscure texts they think legitimizes their "system". Commercialism is actually the basis for most of their exclusivity. I don't object to their belief in their exclusivity, however they remind me of overzealous religionists who proclaim their path as the only true method of salvation.
> 
> Any historical ninjas need to be taken in the context of tribal and clan societies, and in the overall spirit of human adaptation to their environment. To think that a group of humans engaged in a self preservation method and then standardized and codified it is no great stretch, but to think that their methods cannot be observed and obtained on another path is folly.
> 
> The concepts and rationales of something are far more important than the titles.


 
And making up some BS is any better? Sorry, but as I said to you in another post, just because someone takes a bunch of stuff, puts it in a bowl, mixes it all together, pops it in the oven and bakes at 350 for 1hr, does NOT mean that it can be called Ninjutsu.

Seems to me that this is just what you're doing. It also seems that you're very unhappy with the Kans, which is fine...to each their own. But it just strikes it as being odd, that you'd display such a dislike for the Kans, and turn around and what you're doing, NinjItsu.


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## Bruno@MT (Sep 8, 2010)

emiliozapata said:


> 'll chime in here with my own observations. Despite the fact that many people feel that they actually practice "real" ninjutsu, there is no such thing.



There are 3 ryuha which can be considered authentic ninjutsu. 1 of those is taught in several organizations by people who have received a complete transmission of said art. There are sound historical grounds to accept that the transmission is unbroken since the time that it was practiced by a ninja clan.

So on what are you basing this opinion?



emiliozapata said:


> Any historical ninjas need to be taken in the context of tribal and clan societies, and in the overall spirit of human adaptation to their environment. To think that a group of humans engaged in a self preservation method and then standardized and codified it is no great stretch, but to think that their methods cannot be observed and obtained on another path is folly.



None of us has ever pretended to be or become a ninja.
The only claim we make is that we study a system that has been transmitted in its authentic form.

The entire training is based on the concept of survival / escape.
The whole idea of getting into a ring and fighting (which is by your own admission what you do / did) is completely orthogonal to every concept that is documented as ninjutsu.

There is not a single reason that you would call whatever you do ninjutsu, except you want to want the mystique surrounding the arts. At the core, what you do does not follow the concepts of ninjutsu at all.



emiliozapata said:


> The concepts and rationales of something are far more important than the titles.



And you fail at both.


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## jks9199 (Sep 8, 2010)

:trollsign


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## Chris Parker (Sep 8, 2010)

emiliozapata said:


> 'll chime in here with my own observations.
> 
> Based on what?
> 
> ...


 
And perhaps if you'd read the thread, you may see how far out you are with this entire post. Ninjutsu developed in a specific place (Japan, more specifically, the Iga and Koga regions on Honshu) during a specific time frame (the 12th-17th Centuries) by specific peoples (a specific grouping based on the social structure and belief systems of the time), and no amount of "I think I know what it is without any real form of study, research, training, or anything else" changes that. You have no idea whatsoever about anything to do with authentic Ninjutsu.


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## emiliozapata (Sep 8, 2010)

You have no idea whatsoever about anything to do with authentic........

Agreed Chris, but I know everything about Kug Maky Ung Ryu and Shugenbujutsu.


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## Tanaka (Sep 8, 2010)

emiliozapata said:


> You have no idea whatsoever about anything to do with authentic........
> 
> Agreed Chris, but I know everything about Kug Maky Ung Ryu and Shugenbujutsu.



Why are you doing this? Do you enjoy making people upset, and making them not take you serious? You're insulting Japanese culture. Does this not bother you? 

You have some fascination with wanting to be apart of Ninjutsu and Japanese culture. Yet you don't know anything about the culture you're trying to swindle. You didn't even have enough respect to attempt to learn anything about Japanese culture before attempting this.


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## Bob Hubbard (Sep 8, 2010)

emiliozapata said:


> You have no idea whatsoever about anything to do with authentic........
> 
> Agreed Chris, but I know everything about Kug Maky Ung Ryu and Shugenbujutsu.


Neither of which have anything, at all, to do with -Japanese- Ninjutsu.
So your continued posting in this section and claiming they do is trolling.

"today's "ninjutsu" is *derived from the traditional fighting arts associated with the Iga/Koga region of Japan*. We welcome members from all Nin-po schools."

Not MMA, not FMA, not POYAS, not CMA, but arts from a -specific- part of the nation of Japan.

I would strongly suggest you take your, nonsense, to another site, and see how they receive it, because so far, the -only- place you seem to be is here.

I suggest you try Bullshido.

Good bye.


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## Omar B (Sep 8, 2010)

I quite enjoy reading his ill informed posts, it's like reading The Onion, only if one of those guys tried to write about something he didn't know.  Comedic and sad.


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## Bruno@MT (Sep 8, 2010)

Bob Hubbard said:


> I would strongly suggest you take your, nonsense, to another site, and see how they receive it, because so far, the -only- place you seem to be is here.
> 
> I suggest you try Bullshido.
> 
> Good bye.



Budoseek would be another good choice. Because that would mean he'd go up against Don Roley.


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## Bob Hubbard (Sep 8, 2010)

But I like Budoseek.


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## Muawijhe (Sep 9, 2010)

Could send him to Martial Arts Planet (MAP). I'm sure they are more welcoming there. I've seen Koga Ryu, HakkyokoKen Ninjitsu, Antony Cummins, and other non-Buuj posts there...


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## Chris Parker (Sep 9, 2010)

(Okay, he's gone, I know, but this has been bugging me since I got the email notification this morning....)



emiliozapata said:


> You have no idea whatsoever about anything to do with authentic........
> 
> Agreed Chris, but I know everything about Kug Maky Ung Ryu and Shugenbujutsu.


 
So you agree that you don't know anything about what Ninjutsu is, and you think that your opinion about it carries any weight? This, I'm afraid, is more than delusional.

But to the point, frankly, I don't think you get any of the terms you used. Let's see, shall we?

You don't get what a Ryu is. The term can also be pronounced "Nagare/Nagashi", and means "flow". In other words, it is a stream of knowledge passed down from one generation to another, not something made up in a backyard. You have no Ryu.

You don't get what Shugen means. It is a specific religious term, and you don't know anything about it. That was dealt with nearly 2 years ago.

Bujutsu refers to Japanese martial arts, not Western made up in the backyard ones, with little to no Japanese influence at all (a little Judo years ago really doesn't count, especially not as bujutsu. Budo, yeah, but not in the small amount you have experienced).

And as for "Kug maky ung", that is, in your own words, taken from a "language you made up as a child". I frankly doubt that. For one thing, it would be almost unthinkably improbable for any child to truly come up with a language. It is a collection of gibberish syllables you came up with. For it to be a language (and therefore have any true meaning) there needs to be syntax and grammatical rules, there needs to be etymology, and there needs to be structure. As this is not from a language (as a linguist would understand it), I submit that it has no meaning, therefore cannot be something that anyone can know about, as it has no substance. Not a surprise, really.

Okay, got that off my chest. Sorry, everyone.


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## Bruno@MT (Sep 9, 2010)

Chris Parker said:


> You don't get what a Ryu is. The term can also be pronounced "Nagare/Nagashi", and means "flow". In other words, it is a stream of knowledge passed down from one generation to another, not something made up in a backyard. You have no Ryu.



Well, technically he could be the founder of the Ryu. I am not saying that it is not silly in the extreme in this case or even a correct use of the term, but all Ryu once started with someone codifying whatever it was they were doing.

So the fact that it was not passed down to him from a previous generation does not matter in this argument. And there are plenty of other reasons why what he is doing is not a Ryu.


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## Chris Parker (Sep 9, 2010)

Often it wouldn't be refered to as a "Ryu" until a generation or two down the road. Togakure Ryu, for instance, wasn't refered to as such until after it's third official generation (counting from Daisuke Nishina/Daisuke Togakure, rather than Shima Kosanta no Minamoto, sometimes refered to as the founder, otherwise refered to as the second in the Soke line). Takagi Ryu didn't really become Takagi Ryu until after the second head (Takagi Umanosuke) had his experiences with Takeuchi Ryu, and started to develop the Jujutsu syllabus. Putting a few things together does not a Ryu make....

And my point, as you said, was that he was not using the term correctly, so he didn't "know everything about" what he was doing. But thanks for getting this back to some interesting areas of conversation!


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