# TTCS Hsing-I



## DaPoets (Jun 25, 2008)

Well Sunday I leave to learn Hsing-I.  Eat sleep and breath Hsing-I for a week is going to be great.  (I just did the week for Lok Hup Ba Fa) 10am - 10pm each day plus the late night sessisons for the energized is just going to be a ball.  But as I humbly come before the MartialTalk community I would like to know some of the things I should keep in mind, possible questions to ask, and even some of your experiences in Hsing-I.  I have seen a range of talent when it comes to Hsing-I with in TTCS and I must say, some are just going through the motions and some really have a strong understanding of Hsing-I and you can easily see their fluidity and force they generate as if you would not want to get in front of them as they charge ahead.

Thanks in advance and I appreciate the thoughts!
:lurk:

**I guess for those that don't know, I have been training in Taoist Tai Chi for 12 years now and I do have some experience in Yang Style, Tae Kwon Do, Praying Mantis Kung Fu, Karate.  My foundations in Tai Chi have been said to be very good thus learning Lok Hup Ba Fa came very easy to me and felt natural.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 25, 2008)

From what I understand of the TTCS Xingyiquan there is no standing training; Wuji, Zhan zhuang and Santi Shi . I have heard that the TTCS does stand in Zhan zhuang but that is not enough to have any sort of understanding of Xingyiquan

Now I am hoping I am wrong about no Santi and you can tell me so when you return from the training. But if TTCS does not stand in Santi there is absolutely no way to understand Xingyiquan alignment, power, movement, etc. This is the basis of Xingyiquan and without it you are just going through the motions.

Also my last Sifu, his Sifu and a few other Xingyi people I have been able to talk to all say basically the same thing. If you can not stand in santi for 20 to 30 minutes per side you are not even a beginner. 

Also what Xingyi forms are you going to learn? Hopefully Wu Xing (5 elements) this is also a base for Xingyiquan

I am however quite interested in hearing how your training went and what it consisted of when you return. 

Santi Shi

More about the importance of Santi Shi


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Jun 25, 2008)

Xue hit it on the nail.

Sung Shih Jung says on San Ti Shi
" San Ti Shi generates the five forms" he also says "Tai chi uses Yin-Yang the San ti postures come from Yin-Yang"

Li Ching Chai on San Ti Shi " The postures (San Ti Shi) and actual use must go together"

Tien Ching Chieh says " Hsing Yi is about balance and centeredness". This is true when speaking about San Ti Shi.


Li Kuei Yuan says " We begin by learning San Ti all the forms and styles derive from it.  You sink your Qi to the navel and reach infinity. From San Ti comes the five forms and from these the twelve styles."

Hsu Chan Ao " Some people think they can learn the five forms or twelve styles in a week or 10 days with this attitude they are bond to fail. If he does not stick to the San Ti he can never reach harmony and full balance in his body. In Hsing Yi you must pay attention to San Ti in order to reach harmony. If you succeed with San Ti the forms and styles will be easy."


All this is true and who can argue with the masters.


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## DaPoets (Jun 25, 2008)

Thank you.  I am aware that this week session is just the begining for my understanding of xing-yi and I have heard that the training is not a cake walk either.  So I'm just as curious as all of you.  I practice everyday for a few hours a day ( I do have to work, spend time w/ the lady, work on my house, etc...) so I am working hard at what I learn and diligently practice the corrections that my instructor gives me.  There is a squating chi kung exercise that we do (squat stand squat stand in basic terms) that used to give me trouble but I had a body/mind break through (best explaination I can give) due to my instructor "tweaking" my form and now I can do a countless number of them with great form where I struggled to do 20 or 30 at a time with my former poor form.  My body is changing and my understanding of tai chi changing along with it.

taijiquan
taijidao
taijijian
luihebafa

these are all changing me in ways I didn't foresee and changing my understanding of possibilities as well.  xing-yi will be the last form I have to learn in my 12 years w/ the TTCS and I have many more years of growth ahead of me.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 25, 2008)

DaPoets said:


> Thank you. I am aware that this week session is just the begining for my understanding of xing-yi and I have heard that the training is not a cake walk either. So I'm just as curious as all of you. I practice everyday for a few hours a day ( I do have to work, spend time w/ the lady, work on my house, etc...) so I am working hard at what I learn and diligently practice the corrections that my instructor gives me. There is a squating chi kung exercise that we do (squat stand squat stand in basic terms) that used to give me trouble but I had a body/mind break through (best explaination I can give) due to my instructor "tweaking" my form and now I can do a countless number of them with great form where I struggled to do 20 or 30 at a time with my former poor form. My body is changing and my understanding of tai chi changing along with it.
> 
> taijiquan
> taijidao
> ...


 
Please let us know how it goes :asian:


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## DaPoets (Jul 4, 2008)

I need a few days or a week to really start to let my body setting in w/ all the changed that it incurred over this past week.  This was incredibly internal and I can feel parts of my insides that I had never felt before.

There was a question about san ti shi and TTCS doesn't teach much of san ti shi and doesn't refer to it as san ti shi, BUT the san ti shi form is in the set as a brief pause and the xing-yi based tendon changing movements that were done for hours every day before working on xing-yi I firmly believe make up for this.

This TTCS xing-yi is very very internal and may not be taught for another few years as it has been 4 years since it was taught. so, I guess I have lots of practice ahead of me before the next week  

This was about 10 hours a day of xing-yi for me....


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Jul 4, 2008)

If you can stay in San ti for a good 10-20 mins a day your Hsing Yi will improve greatly. Since Hsing Yi is very straight forward (except for Pao and Heng the footwork goes kinda of sideways and forward) San Ti helps deliver the correct weight in delivering the strike. I sometimes practice Peng with my leg off the ground to renforce not stepping thru. When in Santi your structure will be correct you will be sunk and this will allow you to have balance,root, and speed.  I don't practice 12 animals because I think 5 element form is more than enough. 

Hope you enjoyed Hsing Yi.  My favorite is Pi it blends very well with Bagua.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 4, 2008)

DaPoets said:


> I need a few days or a week to really start to let my body setting in w/ all the changed that it incurred over this past week. This was incredibly internal and I can feel parts of my insides that I had never felt before.
> 
> There was a question about san ti shi and TTCS doesn't teach much of san ti shi and doesn't refer to it as san ti shi, BUT the san ti shi form is in the set as a brief pause and the xing-yi based tendon changing movements that were done for hours every day before working on xing-yi I firmly believe make up for this.
> 
> ...


 
Thank You and it soundslike you enjoyed yourself.

But I need to comment on this bit



DaPoets said:


> There was a question about san ti shi and TTCS doesn't teach much of san ti shi and doesn't refer to it as san ti shi, BUT the san ti shi form is in the set as a brief pause and the xing-yi based tendon changing movements that were done for hours every day before working on xing-yi I firmly believe make up for this


 
Nope it does not make up for it at all. As my second Sifuis Sifu said If you cannot stand in Santi 20 minutes per side (meaning stationary, not moving and not brief) you are not even a beginner. And he would not teach you any forms until you could.



JadecloudAlchemist said:


> If you can stay in San ti for a good 10-20 mins a day your Hsing Yi will improve greatly. Since Hsing Yi is very straight forward (except for Pao and Heng the footwork goes kinda of sideways and forward) San Ti helps deliver the correct weight in delivering the strike. I sometimes practice Peng with my leg off the ground to renforce not stepping thru. When in Santi your structure will be correct you will be sunk and this will allow you to have balance,root, and speed. I don't practice 12 animals because I think 5 element form is more than enough.


 
I agree completely.

DaPoets

I strongly recommend that you buy a book by Di Guoyong titled 

Di Guoyong on Xingyiquan Vol.1: Five Element Foundation

Then study his section on Santi and then stand in Santi for at least 10 minutes per side per day, actually you will need to work up to that. Then you will see the difference and you will see why santi shi form done as a brief pause is absolutely not enough, nor is it Xingyiquan. 

His book is good, not the best but good and it is the most modern view I have seen in the way he breaks it down.

Santi teaches internal it, teaches external, it teaches alignment, it teachers power, and it is absolutely necessary to understand santi to understand Xingyiquan, it is the root of Xingyiquan. Without this understanding it is nothing more than a dance. And I know this from experience. My first Xingyiquan Sifu did not have anyone stand in Santi. I later discovered it by reading and my second sifu absolutely required Santi and there is a BIG difference.


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## DaPoets (Jul 5, 2008)

Thank you I will look for it in bookstores today.


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## East Winds (Jul 6, 2008)

Xue Sheng,

_*"Santi teaches internal it, teaches external, it teaches alignment, it teachers power, and it is absolutely necessary to understand santi to understand Xingyiquan, it is the root of Xingyiquan. Without this understanding it is nothing more than a dance".

*_Right on the money as usual!! As I keep saying, how can you teach Hsing-I without a martial content.:erg: So long as the TTCS keeps promulgating this crap without testing their form against REAL Hsing -I people they will continue to be ridiculed.

Very best wishes


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 6, 2008)

DaPoets said:


> Thank you I will look for it in bookstores today.


 
It will likely have to be ordered, I believe his student in Canada (Andrea Falk) is the only person that it can be purchased from. 

If the bookstore can't get it the like I provided is to her page. 

I believe it can also be purchased in China but it is not in English, Andrea Falk translated it into English for him


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## DaPoets (Jul 6, 2008)

ok, in the mean time I am reading http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Xingyiquan/Jwing-Ming-Yang/e/9780940871410/?itm=1

as well as http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Hsing-I/Robert-Smith/e/9781556434556/?itm=4

Lots of practice and studying ahead of me.  It is just the beginning.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 6, 2008)

It is always good to read about the art you train IMO. 

I have not read Xingyiquan: Theory, Applications, Fighting Tactics and Spirit by Yang Jwing Ming Yang, Liang Shouyu so I cannot comment on it, I did however read Xingyiquan - 12 Animal Form by Liang Shouyu, and Yang Jwing Ming Yang and Di Guoyongs book is far superior IMO. 

Di Guoyong he delves rather deeply into posture and positioning and Santi and I think in your case it might be the best choice. I am not trying to say anything against the training you receives from TCC but it sounds to me like it was a combination of superficial and too deep and to be honest any Xingyiquan training that was 10 hours a day for a week would be both superficial and overkill. A combination of not enough and too much information all at the same time. So a book that speaks to the root would be, IMO, the best choice. And it may be that the book by Liang Shouyu does exactly that, I have not read it. But keep in mind while reading it that Liang Shouyus root art is Shuaijiao and Yang Jwing Mings root art is White Crane and Yang Jwing Ming is actually Liang Shouyus student in things Xingyiquan. Also I have not read Hsing-I: Chinese Mind-Body Boxing by Robert Smith either so I cannot comment on that either

Another book I have been told is good and is next on my list is 

Li Tianji's The Skill of Xingyiquan

One I am rather found of, but there really isnt much to it, is 

The Xingyi Boxing Manual: Hebei Style's Five Principles and Seven Words by Jing Yunting 

And there is also Sun Lutang

"Xing Yi Quan Xue: The Study of Form-Mind Boxing" by Sun Lu Tang  

Also 
Xing Yi Nei Gong: Xing Yi Health Maintenance and Internal Strength Development by Dan Miller and  Tim Cartmell 

Is not bad either 

But regardless of what any author on Xingyiquan says I can't stress enough the impotance of Santi Shi to the understanding and application of Xingyiquan


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Jul 6, 2008)

Robert Smith's books is good because Wang Shu Jin is in it. :highfive:
 Its not the best book but it has a decent amount of info.

GET SUN LUTANG'S WORK!! 

I would get Sun Lutang's writings over Liang's work or just about anyone's work after all it is SUN LUTANG.


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## DaPoets (Jul 6, 2008)

Well I read 1 book a week on average so I guess the next couple months will mostly be about xing-yi.  I'm making a book catalog on the subject so thank you all for the reading suggestions.

It was great practicing rows and rows of the forms today by the water, as well as doing the set a number of times.

I do have much more respect for Master Moy now.  As I have been told, he tried to develop people and didn't get heavy into Lok Hup Ba Fa until he felt people were ready.  It wasn't until 1994 did he take a couple students to china to train under his co-student Sun Dit who taught Master Moy's students xing-yi (even though Master Moy already knew xing-yi) did it get brought to TTCS.  

Master Moy was big on building foundations and would make people do xing-yi foundation building routines in order to get people healthy and strong enough to move ahead in their training.  There was a Lok Hup week once and he had them do nothing but those foundations until the last day and it was only a taste of Lok Hup, mainly because the group wasn't ready...  xing-yi is definitely like that so much more so.  I would not be able to do xing-yi as well as I am right now if I didn't have a good foundation.  It was not easy to learn at all.


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## East Winds (Jul 7, 2008)

DaPoets,

_*"I would not be able to do xing-yi as well as I am right now if I didn't have a good foundation".  

*_How many times does it have to be said. Without Santi you HAVE NO foundation in Hsing-I and if Moy and his students told you otherwise, it says all you need to know about TTCS "Hsing-I". Like the Taiji form it is emasculated!! It is dance. There are none so blind as will not see!!

Very best wishes


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## mograph (Jul 7, 2008)

Xingyi without Santi is like Yiquan without Zhan Zhuang. Both the martial power and the health improvement come from the standing, not the forms. 

So if Xingyi is being taught for health without standing, it is just a fun dance. 

(I study Yiquan, which came from Xingyi.)

DaPoets, apparently Mr. Moy sent Mrs. Kwan away to learn Xingyi, so she's the source for the TTCS. Maybe she does Santi. But if you choose to study with her, you might want to keep it quiet, if you get my meaning.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 7, 2008)

China From the Inside - Che Style
 Look at



> 4. Important Points on Practice
> 6. Fighting Strategy



The Foundation of Xingyiquan

Santi Shi - Trinity Posture



> The foundation of Xingyiquan is it's stance keeping practice called San Ti Shi (also known as San Cai) , which means "Three Body Posture" or "Trinity Posture." It is the very core of training and develops many of the qualities essential to the development of martial ability.


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## DaPoets (Jul 7, 2008)

Yes I am very aware of San Ti Shi now and with all the videos I have seen on it and talks with others in my area about xing-yi I do fully understand the need of San Ti Shi and I will be working with people to go deeper into this.

Thank you all, and I'm sure as my training progresses (and my readings) I will have more questions and comments.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 7, 2008)

DaPoets said:


> Yes I am very aware of San Ti Shi now and with all the videos I have seen on it and talks with others in my area about xing-yi I do fully understand the need of San Ti Shi and I will be working with people to go deeper into this.
> 
> Thank you all, and I'm sure as my training progresses (and my readings) I will have more questions and comments.


 
Alrighty then I will stop bugging you about it.

I look forward to your questions and comments


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## PHElwood (Jul 24, 2008)

Found this demonstration of Xue Dian style xingyiquan.


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