# Escaping the clinch



## skribs (Mar 18, 2019)

*Note:* _I am talking about the "clinch" used in WT sparring.  This is vastly different from any other clinch, in that grabbing your opponent isn't allowed.  So this is not a discussion on a neck clinch like in Muay Thai or the underhooks and overhooks used in wrestling.  Those would be completely different discussions because of the rules of those games._

In WT sparring, the "clinch" is when you get in too close to kick.  Generally a shorter person would prefer to clinch, while a taller person would rather be at range.  I've gotten a lot of advice lately on the clinch, specifically:

How to close in without getting kicked
Techniques to avoid the clinch or to use on someone as they close in
How to maneuver within the clinch to score on your opponent
How to defend against the kicks in the previous point

However, there's a piece I'm missing - if I don't want to be in the clinch, and my opponent gets me there, how do I escape the clinch without letting him score on me?


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## Christopher Adamchek (Mar 18, 2019)

Im unclear of WT scoring 
What i use and teach for this type of close quarter would be a jam or trap of the arms, followed by and upper chest or hip push, and pushing back with the lead lead followed by a swing step


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## drop bear (Mar 18, 2019)




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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 21, 2019)

skribs said:


> if I don't want to be in the clinch, and my opponent gets me there, how do I escape the clinch without letting him score on me?


Sport can help you to develop certain skill. Not sure how useful this skill can help you in true combat (not just sport).

When the distance is far, you can kick and punch. When the distance is close, you can lock and throw. It's better to take advantage on the distance than to go against the distance.


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## Steve (Mar 21, 2019)

I think yiuve redefined a clinch to such a degree I can't even visualize what you are learning to defend against.  At this point, it seems completely academic, as I'm pretty sure no one you encounter will agree to your rules of engagement.


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## skribs (Mar 21, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Sport can help you to develop certain skill. Not sure how useful this skill can help you in true combat (not just sport).
> 
> When the distance is far, you can kick and punch. When the distance is close, you can lock and throw. It's better to take advantage on the distance than to go against the distance.



I don't think you understand the context of this thread.  The Taekwondo clinch only exists in the sport.  You can't lock and throw, as it's against the rules.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 21, 2019)

skribs said:


> I don't think you understand the context of this thread.  The Taekwondo clinch only exists in the sport.  You can't lock and throw, as it's against the rules.


That's exactly my point. Assume your

- goal is combat.
- path is sport.

If your path doesn't help your goal, may be different paths should be considered (Unless your goal is also sport).


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## skribs (Mar 21, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> That's exactly my point. Assume your
> 
> - goal is combat.
> - path is sport.
> ...



In this case, it's the sport.  Everything about this post is the sport.

Most of what you are suggesting I do is against the rules and would get me disqualified from a match.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 21, 2019)

skribs said:


> In this case, it's the sport.  Everything about this post is the sport.


If both of your path and your goal are sport, you just have to follow whatever the sport may tell you to do.

I have not been on the other Judo forum for quite sometime. I almost totally forget that some people (such as most of the Judo guys) who train MA and their goal is "sport".


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## Steve (Mar 21, 2019)

Got it.  This is specific to sport TKD.  Makes sense now.  Well.  I mean, explains why I don't get it.


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## skribs (Mar 21, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If both of your path and your goal are sport, you just have to follow whatever the sport may tell you to do.
> 
> I have not been on the other Judo forum for quite sometime. I almost totally forget that some people (such as most of the Judo guys) who train MA and their goal is "sport".



That's why I came to the Taekwondo forum to ask about the Taekwondo sport.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 21, 2019)

Just stand there and wait for the refs to break it up.

Personally, I'd likely escape it with an elbow strike. No, it's not legal under WT rules. I'd do it anyway. And you'd think twice about clinching next time. Assuming I didn't knock you out. Which, under WT rules, is a victory for me.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 21, 2019)

drop bear said:


>


Lomachenko's movement is nearly always a good answer.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 21, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> That's exactly my point. Assume your
> 
> - goal is combat.
> - path is sport.
> ...


But if his goal is sport (in this question, anyway), then an answer that violates that sport's rule doesn't help.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 21, 2019)

Steve said:


> I think yiuve redefined a clinch to such a degree I can't even visualize what you are learning to defend against.  At this point, it seems completely academic, as I'm pretty sure no one you encounter will agree to your rules of engagement.


Except among other WT competitors.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 21, 2019)

What are you allowed under rules? Can you push, at all? Are any short strikes (elbows/knees) allowed? I'm ill-equipped to answer the question, but I like the challenge of trying to come up with a response from my toolkit that might fit your need.


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## skribs (Mar 21, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> What are you allowed under rules? Can you push, at all? Are any short strikes (elbows/knees) allowed? I'm ill-equipped to answer the question, but I like the challenge of trying to come up with a response from my toolkit that might fit your need.



You can use your hands to block their momentum, but can't grab or push them. You can push off of them and you can move them like an NFL lineman would, but you can't shove.


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## skribs (Mar 21, 2019)

Steve said:


> I think yiuve redefined a clinch to such a degree I can't even visualize what you are learning to defend against.  At this point, it seems completely academic, as I'm pretty sure no one you encounter will agree to your rules of engagement.


This is what WT competitors define as the clinch. 

We're not allowed to actually clinch, but this is clinch distance using WT rules.


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## drop bear (Mar 21, 2019)




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## Danny T (Mar 21, 2019)

Excellent tactics.


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## Steve (Mar 22, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Except among other WT competitors.


When I see WT, I think wing tsun.  When I see WTF, I see... something not tkd related.


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## drop bear (Mar 22, 2019)

Steve said:


> When I see WT, I think wing tsun.  When I see WTF, I see... something not tkd related.


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## skribs (Mar 22, 2019)

Steve said:


> When I see WT, I think wing tsun.  When I see WTF, I see... something not tkd related.



I'm on the TKD forum.


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## skribs (Mar 22, 2019)

@drop bear I can try and glean something from those, but the fighting style is completely different.  Typically in a Taekwondo clinch both fighters are basically pressed against each other, and if the other fighter wants to clinch they will try to glue to me.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 22, 2019)

skribs said:


> You can use your hands to block their momentum, but can't grab or push them. You can push off of them and you can move them like an NFL lineman would, but you can't shove.


Okay, so if I'm reading them right, I can move them by moving me (with my legs), and I can move me by pushing with my arms, but I can't move them by pushing with my arms. Is that right?


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 22, 2019)

drop bear said:


>


 Some good description of how the mechanics of follow-through affect the exit. I really like that video - thanks, DB.

@skribs, this doesn't match exactly what you're talking about, but those mechanics can help. He talks about how to use a strike to start the movement out, and which angles work best. Those angles are probably not all the same for WT competition as for boxing, but the principles are. I think the idea of a strike (if they're as close as I'm imagining, then we're talking something like a hook or uppercut, probably) leading the movement might buy you both the momentum and quarter-beat you need to start an exit.


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## Steve (Mar 22, 2019)

skribs said:


> I'm on the TKD forum.


Makes sense.  Just as an FYI, I hit the new post or active post button and just read threads.   I often have no idea which subforum a thread is in.  I can’t be the only one who reads the forum this way.   Why are you getting so salty about this?


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## skribs (Mar 22, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Some good description of how the mechanics of follow-through affect the exit. I really like that video - thanks, DB.
> 
> @skribs, this doesn't match exactly what you're talking about, but those mechanics can help. He talks about how to use a strike to start the movement out, and which angles work best. Those angles are probably not all the same for WT competition as for boxing, but the principles are. I think the idea of a strike (if they're as close as I'm imagining, then we're talking something like a hook or uppercut, probably) leading the movement might buy you both the momentum and quarter-beat you need to start an exit.



Hook or uppercut would not be allowed.  No punching to the face in WT sparring.

If anything, getting low is probably the worst idea, because it puts your head closer to their feet.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 22, 2019)

Steve said:


> When I see WT, I think wing tsun.  When I see WTF, I see... something not tkd related.


I had that issue when I first read the OP. I was confused, thinking, "Why the heck is Skribs asking about Wing Tsun??" Took me a bit to remember "WTF" is now "WT" - probably because of what you and I both think of first when we see "WTF".


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 22, 2019)

Steve said:


> Makes sense.  Just as an FYI, I hit the new post or active post button and just read threads.   I often have no idea which subforum a thread is in.  I can’t be the only one who reads the forum this way.   Why are you getting so salty about this?


Yeah, I sometimes scroll back up to see which forum I'm in when replying, because I nearly always come in off the recent threads.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 22, 2019)

skribs said:


> Hook or uppercut would not be allowed.  No punching to the face in WT sparring.
> 
> If anything, getting low is probably the worst idea, because it puts your head closer to their feet.


How about a body hook? I doubt it scores anything, but it might serve the purpose for the exit. And yeah, you're probably not going to be dropping under an arm, but it doesn't sound like you'd need to, anyway. Keeping the kicks in mind, you'd also have to be wary of exiting right into kicking range.


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## skribs (Mar 22, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> How about a body hook? I doubt it scores anything, but it might serve the purpose for the exit. And yeah, you're probably not going to be dropping under an arm, but it doesn't sound like you'd need to, anyway. Keeping the kicks in mind, you'd also have to be wary of exiting right into kicking range.



I'm not entirely sure about the body hook.  It might only be straight punches.  Even if it's allowed, you're punching a well-padded target.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 22, 2019)

skribs said:


> I'm not entirely sure about the body hook.  It might only be straight punches.  Even if it's allowed, you're punching a well-padded target.


Good point. See, I told you I was ill-equipped to answer this. 

Okay, so assuming I sort of understand the rules at play, I have two thoughts of what I'd try if I was in that position. They might work, they might fail, or they might get me DQ'd (which, if you think about it, gets me out of that damned clinch).

First, I might try crowding more. If they want me close, maybe they'll enjoy it more if I'm closer. Of course, for some folks, this crowding will cause them to want some space and if they back off even a little, that's my chance to back out of the clinch.

The second option is more of a variation on the first. Crowd them again, but this time, using that linebacker approach you said was legal. Get them moving slightly back, and as soon as they resist, use their resistance to push myself away.

If either of those is new to you, give it a shot and let me know if I get you KO'd.


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## skribs (Mar 22, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Good point. See, I told you I was ill-equipped to answer this.
> 
> Okay, so assuming I sort of understand the rules at play, I have two thoughts of what I'd try if I was in that position. They might work, they might fail, or they might get me DQ'd (which, if you think about it, gets me out of that damned clinch).
> 
> ...



If they want to be in the clinch they will probably be pressing their chestguard against yours, which means you can't get closer.  Or they'll have their hands up, which you can't get closer.

Typically the shorter person will be more ideal for the clinch, so if they are clinching against me, I'd want to get back to range against them.


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## Steve (Mar 22, 2019)

Steve said:


> When I see WT, I think wing tsun.  When I see WTF, I see... something not tkd related.


@skribs and @Dirty Dog , I am gebuinely confused how you could each disagree with a post where I describe what comes to my own mind.  Are you suggesting I'm lying in my post above?


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## skribs (Mar 22, 2019)

Steve said:


> @skribs and @Dirty Dog , I am gebuinely confused how you could each disagree with a post where I describe what comes to my own mind.  Are you suggesting I'm lying in my post above?



Because this was posted on the TKD forum, so I would hope that people would assume it was TKD-related.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 22, 2019)

skribs said:


> If they want to be in the clinch they will probably be pressing their chestguard against yours, which means you can't get closer.  Or they'll have their hands up, which you can't get closer.
> 
> Typically the shorter person will be more ideal for the clinch, so if they are clinching against me, I'd want to get back to range against them.


If they're pressing forward enough, a well-timed pivot might let you separate, at least get one side far enough away to maybe get in a kick if you're faster than me at kicking (perhaps too low a bar to set for this). It would probably need a small shift to one side to start the pivot, so the leg you're pivoting on isn't under direct pressure. The utility of this would be very situation-dependent.

As it turns out, I have a really hard time thinking of answers that don't involve a little grappling. I'm not surprised by that, since my "striking only" sparring tends to involve me cheating by getting in little bits of grappling. I just can't stop myself. In any case, thanks for letting me participate. Do I get a trophy?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 22, 2019)

Steve said:


> I often have no idea which subforum a thread is in.  I can’t be the only one who reads the forum this way.


I'm the same and you are not alone. All my threads were started in the "general MA talk" session. Sometime I even forgot that some people may only want "style only solution".

In another Judo forum, when there was a no-Gi training discussion, most Judo guys were not interested in it. My comment was always, "What if you have to use your Judo throw on sandy beach in the summer?"


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## paitingman (Mar 22, 2019)

skribs said:


> *Note:* _I am talking about the "clinch" used in WT sparring.  This is vastly different from any other clinch, in that grabbing your opponent isn't allowed.  So this is not a discussion on a neck clinch like in Muay Thai or the underhooks and overhooks used in wrestling.  Those would be completely different discussions because of the rules of those games._
> 
> In WT sparring, the "clinch" is when you get in too close to kick.  Generally a shorter person would prefer to clinch, while a taller person would rather be at range.  I've gotten a lot of advice lately on the clinch, specifically:
> 
> ...


A few maneuvers could be:

1. high jump back, transitioning into cross arm guard from wherever your hands were in the clinch, with the lead knee raised to further guard.
     (if refs call you for leg checking throw a flicky kick while still holding the knee very high as you jump back)

2. with hands on their hogu, deliver a sudden, shocking shove, but follow him immediately as he is shifted backward and maintain hand contact on his hogu, then angle off and retreat (and kick if you'd like) while he is still off balance

3. just wait. you can stay safe until the break by using arm pressure, body pressure, and footwork. Get good hand contact on them. Ideally, you getting as much of your forearm against their chest guard is best, but make sure not to reach past them. Try and position your arms in a way that you can deliver as much side-to-side elbow leverage as possible without getting called by the ref. You can feel them moving. And if they try to raise their leg to kick or jump and retreat, you can try and leverage them with either your right or left arm and disrupt their maneuver as you find a safer angle.
(be extra _slick _with this one or you'll rack up gamjeoms)

Keep training hard!


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## Danny T (Mar 22, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I had that issue when I first read the OP. I was confused, thinking, "Why the heck is Skribs asking about Wing Tsun??" Took me a bit to remember "WTF" is now "WT" - probably because of what you and I both think of first when we see "WTF".


Wednesday Thursday Friday?


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## Danny T (Mar 22, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I had that issue when I first read the OP. I was confused, thinking, "Why the heck is Skribs asking about Wing Tsun??" Took me a bit to remember "WTF" is now "WT" - probably because of what you and I both think of first when we see "WTF".


I also had trouble understand that 'clinch' isn't clinch but something else. Getting close? Then I viewed some TKD Clinching videos and what did I see. Clinching. Not just getting up close but wrapping their arms around each other. Not that anything was done in the clinch but, it was a clinch.

So now I'm even more confused.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 22, 2019)

Danny T said:


> I also had trouble understand that 'clinch' isn't clinch but something else. Getting close? Then I viewed some TKD Clinching videos and what did I see. Clinching. Not just getting up close but wrapping their arms around each other. Not that anything was done in the clinch but, it was a clinch.
> 
> So now I'm even more confused.



That's what it is, despite what skribs said. They get close, lock arms, and the refs separate them.


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## Danny T (Mar 22, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> That's what it is, despite what skribs said. They get close, lock arms, and the refs separate them.


Thank you. I feel much better over my state of confusion.


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## skribs (Mar 22, 2019)

Danny T said:


> I also had trouble understand that 'clinch' isn't clinch but something else. Getting close? Then I viewed some TKD Clinching videos and what did I see. Clinching. Not just getting up close but wrapping their arms around each other. Not that anything was done in the clinch but, it was a clinch.
> 
> So now I'm even more confused.



Can you post one of those videos? It might be that they are discussing defense against a clinch in a street fight.  You're not allowed to grab in WT rules.


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## Steve (Mar 23, 2019)

skribs said:


> Because this was posted on the TKD forum, so I would hope that people would assume it was TKD-related.


Lol.  Okay.  I’m going to hop off the merry go round now.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 23, 2019)

Danny T said:


> Wednesday Thursday Friday?


Exactly. And now those odd TKD guys only spar two days of the week!


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## Danny T (Mar 23, 2019)

skribs said:


> Can you post one of those videos? It might be that they are discussing defense against a clinch in a street fight.  You're not allowed to grab in WT rules.






Here is just 1 of several I looked at. I selected this one because it shows clinching early.
Check 15 seconds and again at 21 seconds. It is obvious they are clinching to prevent any attacks. There is immediate stoppage of any action by the referee.


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## Jaeimseu (Mar 23, 2019)

skribs said:


> I'm not entirely sure about the body hook.  It might only be straight punches.  Even if it's allowed, you're punching a well-padded target.



Learn to punch harder. The worst match I was ever in I got hit with punches in the clinch. The guy left knuckle marks through my hogu. Before that I never was concerned with someone punching me in that position. But that guy hurt me with it. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## skribs (Mar 23, 2019)

Danny T said:


> Here is just 1 of several I looked at. I selected this one because it shows clinching early.
> Check 15 seconds and again at 21 seconds. It is obvious they are clinching to prevent any attacks. There is immediate stoppage of any action by the referee.



The clinch done by Red at 0:15 is a legal clinch.  The clinch done by Blue at 0:15 is a grab that is not allowed.  If both of them clinched like Red (hands past the target, arms straight) the fight would have kept going.

If the clinch is illegal and then immediately stopped, I don't need to know how to escape it.  If the clinch is legal (like Red's) then I'd need to know how to escape it.

So what Blue does is *not *the clinch, it is a violation of the rules.  (As far as WT sparring is concerned, anyway).


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## paitingman (Mar 23, 2019)

skribs said:


> The clinch done by Red at 0:15 is a legal clinch.  The clinch done by Blue at 0:15 is a grab that is not allowed.  If both of them clinched like Red (hands past the target, arms straight) the fight would have kept going.
> 
> If the clinch is illegal and then immediately stopped, I don't need to know how to escape it.  If the clinch is legal (like Red's) then I'd need to know how to escape it.
> 
> So what Blue does is *not *the clinch, it is a violation of the rules.  (As far as WT sparring is concerned, anyway).



Without seeing the full match I can't say why the ref broke them or whether he issued a penalty, but what Blue did is pretty natural and common. You should train this way as well. Don't nitpick little rules like this in training and just deal with it and learn to handle whatever they may do. 
When it's game time, follow the rules and let the ref work, but let's be real; center refs aren't all that consistent. You may get refs who aren't looking at anything but blatant grabbing and some who are all over the matter.


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## Buka (Mar 23, 2019)

Skribs, just focus on your third and fourth point. Work the hell out of them with reckless abandon.


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## Danny T (Mar 23, 2019)

skribs said:


> The clinch done by Red at 0:15 is a legal clinch.  The clinch done by Blue at 0:15 is a grab that is not allowed.  If both of them clinched like Red (hands past the target, arms straight) the fight would have kept going.
> 
> If the clinch is illegal and then immediately stopped, I don't need to know how to escape it.  If the clinch is legal (like Red's) then I'd need to know how to escape it.
> 
> So what Blue does is *not *the clinch, it is a violation of the rules.  (As far as WT sparring is concerned, anyway).


Later in the video there are other clinching with grabbing and the fighting continues.

If clinching grabbing is illegal then why no warning or points taken? Is it illegal or that the match is simply restarted from a non clinch position?


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## paitingman (Mar 23, 2019)

Danny T said:


> Later in the video there are other clinching with grabbing and the fighting continues.
> 
> If clinching grabbing is illegal then why no warning or points taken? Is it illegal or that the match is simply restarted from a non clinch position?


Depends on who the ref is.

It is against the rules and, if caught, a one point penalty is given (basically the other guy gets a point) and any points you may have scored while using the grip are waved off.


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## drop bear (Mar 23, 2019)

If they are grabbing without grabbing. Can you underhook?


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## skribs (Mar 23, 2019)

paitingman said:


> Without seeing the full match I can't say why the ref broke them or whether he issued a penalty, but what Blue did is pretty natural and common. You should train this way as well. Don't nitpick little rules like this in training and just deal with it and learn to handle whatever they may do.
> When it's game time, follow the rules and let the ref work, but let's be real; center refs aren't all that consistent. You may get refs who aren't looking at anything but blatant grabbing and some who are all over the matter.



If you're training for the sport, the rules are not something to ignore.


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## skribs (Mar 23, 2019)

drop bear said:


> If they are grabbing without grabbing. Can you underhook?


Without hooking, so kind of.


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## drop bear (Mar 23, 2019)

skribs said:


> Without hooking, so kind of.



Just thinking reef that underhook hard and tip them. Almost an upward judo chop.

They do it in life saving competition.

Even striking with the lead shoulder together a bit of space then hook them.


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## dvcochran (Mar 23, 2019)

Danny T said:


> Here is just 1 of several I looked at. I selected this one because it shows clinching early.
> Check 15 seconds and again at 21 seconds. It is obvious they are clinching to prevent any attacks. There is immediate stoppage of any action by the referee.


That is classic WT clinching. I am not sure what the OP is trying to get to. Because there are no takedowns or locks the best and most used tactic is to simply get closer. As seen in your video it is common to try to get you arms under your opponent and lift them up. Quickest way to get a break form the ref. Against the strict wording of the rules but you can get by with a little push and pull but have to be very, very subtle about it. So the short answer for @skribs is to get even closer, lock up and wait for the ref to break. Pushing with your body is the quickest way to get a warning.
Back in the 90's you could lock longer and work out of it. It was a great move if you had a really strong and very vertical front kick, like from 6" away. You could definitely catch some not expecting a kick from that close.


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## Danny T (Mar 23, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> That is classic WT clinching. I am not sure what the OP is trying to get to. Because there are no takedowns or locks the best and most used tactic is to simply get closer. As seen in your video it is common to try to get you arms under your opponent and lift them up. Quickest way to get a break form the ref. Against the strict wording of the rules but you can get by with a little push and pull but have to be very, very subtle about it. So the short answer for @skribs is to get even closer, lock up and wait for the ref to break. Pushing with your body is the quickest way to get a warning.
> Back in the 90's you could lock longer and work out of it. It was a great move if you had a really strong and very vertical front kick, like from 6" away. You could definitely catch some not expecting a kick from that close.


Yeap...this is more to what I'm seeing and remembering from the short time I did TKD many years ago (70s).
Thank you.


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## paitingman (Mar 24, 2019)

skribs said:


> If you're training for the sport, the rules are not something to ignore.


When did I say ignore the rules? I'm saying don't nitpick with your training partners. 
As I said, when in a match follow the rules. 
But if your classmate gets a little grabby, don't call stop and lecture them on the rule. 
Learn to handle people being clingy and perhaps breaking some rules. 

Some refs will let your opponent get away with a lot.


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## paitingman (Mar 24, 2019)

paitingman said:


> When did I say ignore the rules? I'm saying don't nitpick with your training partners.
> As I said, when in a match follow the rules.
> But if your classmate gets a little grabby, don't call stop and lecture them on the rule.
> Learn to handle people being clingy and perhaps breaking some rules.
> ...


@skribs It's like playing in a soccer match and not being able to handle a little rough housing and grabbing from the opposing players...
it's against rules and bad form, but it will happen to you a lot. just part of the game

You will not find an elite training camp or tournament anywhere on the planet where fighters are not grabbing and shoving eachother.


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## skribs (Mar 24, 2019)

paitingman said:


> When did I say ignore the rules? I'm saying don't nitpick with your training partners.
> As I said, when in a match follow the rules.
> But if your classmate gets a little grabby, don't call stop and lecture them on the rule.
> Learn to handle people being clingy and perhaps breaking some rules.
> ...



Because you should be training your partners appropriately.  _Especially _in something that demands respect to the level that martial arts does.


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## Jaeimseu (Mar 24, 2019)

skribs said:


> Because you should be training your partners appropriately.  _Especially _in something that demands respect to the level that martial arts does.



If you’re training for competition, appropriately means preparing for the realities of competition. In a real match, you’re going to get grabbed, pushed, kicked below the belt, etc. Players are allowed up to 10 warnings in a match if I’m not mistaken. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## skribs (Mar 24, 2019)

Jaeimseu said:


> If you’re training for competition, appropriately means preparing for the realities of competition. In a real match, you’re going to get grabbed, pushed, kicked below the belt, etc. Players are allowed up to 10 warnings in a match if I’m not mistaken.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



The opponent gets a point whenever you commit a penalty.  And if you do commit 10, you lose.

I'm not arguing that they don't happen.  But to ignore the rules in training is just stupid.


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## Jaeimseu (Mar 24, 2019)

skribs said:


> The opponent gets a point whenever you commit a penalty.  And if you do commit 10, you lose.
> 
> I'm not arguing that they don't happen.  But to ignore the rules in training is just stupid.



You seem to be stuck in this black and white world in which you either must ignore the rules or follow them to a fault without acknowledging gray areas that can be and are taken advantage of. Athletes need to experience “rule-bending “ in training because it does happen frequently in competition. Don’t misunderstand, I’m not talking about cheating or fighting unethically. I’m saying not all refs call things the same and these things happen in pretty much every match. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## paitingman (Mar 24, 2019)

@skribs no one is saying ignore the rules I don't know why you can't accept it.

if you depend on the ref to save you from people breaking rules and being sloppy you are going to be really disappointed.
You have to learn how to deal with these things for yourself as well.
You cannot depend on the ref or anyone but yourself. 

"The rules are the rules. Refs are supposed to give penalties for rule breaking. Martial Arts demands respect. So I'm never going to figure out and train what to do when people break the rules," is not a winning strategy.

The ones in sparring training who are keeping track of gamjeoms and every violation and then saying stuff to their partners about it are usually not the ones progressing and doing well.


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## skribs (Mar 24, 2019)

paitingman said:


> @skribs no one is saying ignore the rules I don't know why you can't accept it.
> 
> if you depend on the ref to save you from people breaking rules and being sloppy you are going to be really disappointed.
> You have to learn how to deal with these things for yourself as well.
> ...



So which rules do you train for and which do you not?

Do you tell your students "just kick them in the groin over and over again, you can do it 9 times before you get disqualified anyway"?
Do you tell your students "just kick your partner in the knee, because half the time they won't call it?"
Do you tell your students "your partner's going to have to know what it's like to get punched in the face, so go ahead and punch them."

There's a difference between telling students how to get away with a grab, or when to grab even though it's against the rules...and telling them "just ignore this rule in practice because they might not even call it."


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## paitingman (Mar 24, 2019)

@skribs I think you have gotten the wrong impression and have some how arrived at the most unreasonable case scenario.

we're still talking specifically about clinching and people grabbing you in the clinch.
How old are you?
Everything I'm saying is in the context of you or I training with our peers. Training in a mature way. In a reasonable way and with care for one another.

Grabbing or hooking and shoving and playing around in the clinch especially (because we are so much more closely interacting and there's just more you can do with all this contact)

I think a little gamesmanship amongst mature, laid back martial artists will give you supreme skills in the clinch. Types of moves and tricks you can laugh off or show one another.
There are perfectly positive, fun ways to break rules and train and prepare yourself for competition with training partners.

Whether or not you choose to break the rules and wrestle around and try and pull tricks when actually competing is totally on the individual and is a statement of their character maybe at least on some level.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 24, 2019)

When you train any MA sport, you will train 2 different sets of technique, the

- legal technique, and
- illegal technique.

Examples of a teacher teaches student how to use illegal technique.











When a student trains this take dow, he will learn 2 different ways.

1. legal way - press down your opponent's shoulder, and take him down.
2. illegal way - press down your opponent's shoulder, strike him with your right knee, and take down.

If you are a student, do you want to learn both ways?


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## Jaeimseu (Mar 24, 2019)

skribs said:


> So which rules do you train for and which do you not?
> 
> Do you tell your students "just kick them in the groin over and over again, you can do it 9 times before you get disqualified anyway"?
> Do you tell your students "just kick your partner in the knee, because half the time they won't call it?"
> ...



The point, IMO, is that there is a lot of subjectivity in terms of what constitutes a penalty and what doesn’t when it comes to official calls. I coach American football, and this reminds me of my players complaining about holding. Holding is illegal. Your team can be penalized for it. And it occurs on every play of every game at every level.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Danny T (Mar 24, 2019)

Is 'all' aspects of your training specific to competing under a specific rule set?
Now how do you deal with someone within who disregards some of the rules. Do you do any training to handle such?
What about the ability use your skills in a situation where one were having to defend yourself in an actual clinch?
Just curious.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 24, 2019)

Danny T said:


> What about the ability use your skills in a situation where one were having to defend yourself in an actual clinch?


One has to learn 2 different set of MA skills. Techniques that can be used to deal with

- friendly training partners (in sport), and
- unfriendly challengers (in fight).


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## Danny T (Mar 24, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> One has to learn 2 different set of MA skills. Techniques that can be used to deal with
> 
> - friendly training partners (in sport), and
> - unfriendly challengers (in fight).


Don't really agree on having to learn 2 different skill sets. If you have the skills it is more about knowing what to use and when to use it. In your example having the skill to knee doesn't mean one has to use it. Just as in the OP about clinching. Knowing how to grab in a clinch as well as knowing what to do when grabbed are important skills but that doesn't mean the person has to grab in a competition (knowing when).


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 24, 2019)

Danny T said:


> Don't really agree on having to learn 2 different skill sets.


If a teacher just teaches his students the sport with all legal techniques, where will those students be able to learn those illegal techniques?


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## Danny T (Mar 24, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If a teacher just teaches his students the sport with all legal techniques, where will those students be able to learn those illegal techniques?


In your example  
"When a student trains this take down, he will learn 2 different ways.

1. legal way - press down your opponent's shoulder, and take him down.
2. illegal way - press down your opponent's shoulder, strike him with your right knee, and take down."

Are you saying in a good martial art training school whether just for sport the student doesn't learn to knee? Therefore will not know how to knee someone? Or that even if the person knows how to knee they will never learn to knee at a particular time?  Unless the instructor specifically teaches them to do so at a particular moment in a fight?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 24, 2019)

Danny T said:


> Are you saying in a good martial art training school whether just for sport the student doesn't learn to knee?


The knee strike is just one example of many illegal techniques used in sport.

I have a Chinese wrestling book. In that book, the technique "cracking - throw from elbow joint pressure" has been taken out completely. The Chinese government tries to promote Chinese wrestling as pure sport. IMO, many valuable techniques will be lost in the long run. Sport can hurt MA in the long run.

The following "cracking" technique is missing in the Chinese government official Chinese wrestling book.








I have heard this technique has been taken out from Judo training.


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## Danny T (Mar 25, 2019)

I understand your logic.
There are numerous techniques not allowed in sport. The true student of the martial arts will learn and know that because they will research and study. The follower will simply follow. In Chinese Wrestling just as in Judo there is the complete system and there is the sport system. For example in Judo there are the 'atemi waza' (striking) techniques. There are hand striking, elbows, knees, and kicks within Judo. However in competition striking is not allowed but that doesn't mean the person doesn't know how or when to use the atemi waza techniques.

I coach amateur and pro mma fighters. Amateur fighters can't elbow in most mma competitions but that doesn't mean they don't know how or when to elbow in a fight.


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## skribs (Mar 25, 2019)

paitingman said:


> @skribs I think you have gotten the wrong impression and have some how arrived at the most unreasonable case scenario.
> 
> we're still talking specifically about clinching and people grabbing you in the clinch.
> How old are you?
> ...



Or you can learn the legal ways of doing this, so you don't have to worry about getting a penalty or not.

If you're training gamesmanship, that's one thing.  But what was suggested earlier is to just ignore the rule.



Danny T said:


> Is 'all' aspects of your training specific to competing under a specific rule set?
> Now how do you deal with someone within who disregards some of the rules. Do you do any training to handle such?
> What about the ability use your skills in a situation where one were having to defend yourself in an actual clinch?
> Just curious.



I'm not talking about an actual clinch, though.  That would be completely different.  This post is specifically focused on the sport side of Taekwondo.  It is a completely different clinch than a Muay Thai or Wrestling clinch.

In a real situation, there's a lot of techniques that open up, such as knees and kicks to the groin, grabs or strikes to the groin, or (worst case scenario) biting their neck.  I also have sweeps, uppercuts, and plenty else that I could do, none of which is available in TKD.  There's also a lot my opponent will be trying to do in a real situation (like take-downs, knee strikes, or choke-holds) which I don't have to defend against on the mat.  

I think if I were to try and use the TKD clinch in a real fight, it would be an invitation for a hook punch or elbow strike to the head, neither of which is allowed.


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## paitingman (Mar 25, 2019)

skribs said:


> Or you can learn the legal ways of doing this, so you don't have to worry about getting a penalty or not.
> 
> If you're training gamesmanship, that's one thing.  But what was suggested earlier is to just ignore the rule.


Dude, for the last time. I NEVER said ignore the rule. I clarified what we've been talking about and you still keep pointing to something no one said. But at least we've cleared that up. 

I never said learn illegal things and use them either. I'm talking about people training together and learning what to do when people are grabby or pushy and try and use these tactics against you. 
I never said, "You should learn how to use these tactics." Read it back. 
If you have a way of training that works that's awesome, but you've been real argumentative over nothing after asking for some discussion on clinch training.


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## dvcochran (Apr 20, 2019)

Jaeimseu said:


> If you’re training for competition, appropriately means preparing for the realities of competition. In a real match, you’re going to get grabbed, pushed, kicked below the belt, etc. Players are allowed up to 10 warnings in a match if I’m not mistaken.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Unless it has changed, 2 warnings  and on the 3rd and any following of the same offense is a point deduction. If flagrant a competitor can be disqualified.


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## gorilla2 (Apr 23, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> Just stand there and wait for the refs to break it up.
> 
> Personally, I'd likely escape it with an elbow strike. No, it's not legal under WT rules. I'd do it anyway. And you'd think twice about clinching next time. Assuming I didn't knock you out. Which, under WT rules, is a victory for me.


If you knock someone out with an elbow strike under WT rules you would disqualified...


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## skribs (Apr 23, 2019)

gorilla2 said:


> If you knock someone out with an elbow strike under WT rules you would disqualified...



I'm not sure exactly how this works.  A lot of the tournaments I've been to, people have been injured by dubious techniques and they're told they can keep fighting or quit, but if they quit then they forfeit.  So the other person might lose a point from the penalty, or win the match from the forfeit.

I think that's one reason we don't do tournaments much at my school.


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## gorilla2 (Apr 23, 2019)

You are correct if they are hit with a dubious strike it will be a penalty...but if you KO someone with an illegal strike you will be DQ’d


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## gorilla2 (Apr 23, 2019)

BTW no warning in TKD every penalty a point is added...10 per match


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## skribs (Apr 23, 2019)

gorilla2 said:


> You are correct if they are hit with a dubious strike it will be a penalty...but if you KO someone with an illegal strike you will be DQ’d



That's the thing.  They weren't KO'd.  But they didn't want to continue because they were already injured and didn't want to be injured more.  I've seen this happen in adult divisions with mothers, I've seen it happen in 8-10 year old divisions.  One of my students had a broken bloody nose (and we weren't sure about a concussion yet) and was told if he quit, the other kid would win.

He did quit, and the other kid did win.

There were a lot of bloody faces at the last tournament I went to, and we're talking mostly 8-12 year olds that were getting bloody.  Broken noses, cut eyebrows, it was brutal.  And these aren't kids who want to fight, but kids who want to have fun and gain confidence.


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## dvcochran (Apr 23, 2019)

skribs said:


> I'm not sure exactly how this works.  A lot of the tournaments I've been to, people have been injured by dubious techniques and they're told they can keep fighting or quit, but if they quit then they forfeit.  So the other person might lose a point from the penalty, or win the match from the forfeit.
> 
> I think that's one reason we don't do tournaments much at my school.


I went to the US nationals twice and Olympic trials once in the 1980's(see bio). It was almost to the point of common that some competitors would take their two warnings before point deduction in hopes that a person would have to bow out. Broken noses and knee injuries were not unheard of. A part of the rules I am glad they cleaned up. At the trials I looked like a racoon from a solid punch to the nose during a clinch. It looked like I was in a pro wrestling match.


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## skribs (Apr 23, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> I went to the US nationals twice and Olympic trials once in the 1980's(see bio). It was almost to the point of common that some competitors would take their two warnings before point deduction in hopes that a person would have to bow out. Broken noses and knee injuries were not unheard of. A part of the rules I am glad they cleaned up. At the trials I looked like a racoon from a solid punch to the nose during a clinch. It looked like I was in a pro wrestling match.



Now you get 10 penalty points before you're DQ'd.

I had a student of mine, I was so mad at him.  He was winning (like 15 points up even despite having all the points taken away) but he was so careless with his kicks he got DQ'd.  But that was because he was careless, and not because he was malicious.  Someone who is malicious has 9 tries to get you to quit.


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## dvcochran (Apr 23, 2019)

skribs said:


> Now you get 10 penalty points before you're DQ'd.
> 
> I had a student of mine, I was so mad at him.  He was winning (like 15 points up even despite having all the points taken away) but he was so careless with his kicks he got DQ'd.  But that was because he was careless, and not because he was malicious.  Someone who is malicious has 9 tries to get you to quit.


That is just dangerously ridiculous. Unless they are calling a lot more than they used to. There simply were no excessive contact penalties. You are talking about Olympic sparring rules?


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## skribs (Apr 23, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> That is just dangerously ridiculous. Unless they are calling a lot more than they used to. There simply were no excessive contact penalties. You are talking about Olympic sparring rules?



You have targets where you can and can't hit.  You can hit the wrong target 9 times and not be DQ'd.  It takes 10 penalties to be DQ'd.

It's actually gotten worse lately, because I think the face has become a legal target.  It used to only be the helmet, but now anything above the bottom of the helmet is legal.


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## dvcochran (Apr 23, 2019)

skribs said:


> You have targets where you can and can't hit.  You can hit the wrong target 9 times and not be DQ'd.  It takes 10 penalties to be DQ'd.
> 
> It's actually gotten worse lately, because I think the face has become a legal target.  It used to only be the helmet, but now anything above the bottom of the helmet is legal.


I was not aware it ever changed. One benefit of the added padding over the ear was to identify how far back on the head was a point. But it was never a penalty to inadvertently hit any part of the head. For example hitting the back of the head with a spinning kick was not a point but not a penalty either. Of course some areas were not a point, but the face definitely was.


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 23, 2019)

gorilla2 said:


> If you knock someone out with an elbow strike under WT rules you would disqualified...



Theoretically. In theory, falling down to avoid being smacked will cost you points, too. In practice...
The point was that the WT ruleset is ridiculous and needs a major overhaul.


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## dvcochran (Apr 24, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> Theoretically. In theory, falling down to avoid being smacked will cost you points, too. In practice...
> The point was that the WT ruleset is ridiculous and needs a major overhaul.


Based on the intended purpose it is not ridiculous. Because it is not as classical as say boxing it is not as easily understood. Therein lies the problem. From a sport mindset TKD has made great strides to be an Olympic sport since 1988. The never ending rate of change within the sport and aggressive use of technology further complicates understanding the sport. I hope they eventually find a scoring process and stick with it. Then it can start to be understood by the casual spectator. Boxing has been around a very long time as a sport and I imagine it has had some similar hurdles. The simplicity of boxing is part of what makes it so elegant to me.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 24, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Based on the intended purpose it is not ridiculous. Because it is not as classical as say boxing it is not as easily understood. Therein lies the problem. From a sport mindset TKD has made great strides to be an Olympic sport since 1988. The never ending rate of change within the sport and aggressive use of technology further complicates understanding the sport. I hope they eventually find a scoring process and stick with it. Then it can start to be understood by the casual spectator. Boxing has been around a very long time as a sport and I imagine it has had some similar hurdles. The simplicity of boxing is part of what makes it so elegant to me.


I don't know - if being taken out by an illegal move makes that illegal move a win, that seems ridiculous to me. That's entirely from the outside, though, and I'm not sure I understand the intention of that.


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## skribs (Apr 25, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I don't know - if being taken out by an illegal move makes that illegal move a win, that seems ridiculous to me. That's entirely from the outside, though, and I'm not sure I understand the intention of that.



It depends on what happens.

Let's say I give you an almighty kick to the groin.  The pain is so bad you wanna throw up, and you can barely stand.  The medic comes over and checks you out, sees that you have no brain injury, no damage to bones or ligaments, and clears you to keep fighting.  *Because the medic has cleared you*, your option is to continue or forfeit.

Now let's say I punch you in the face and knock you out.  The medic says "you have a concussion and cannot continue."  *I am disqualified.*
Or I kick you with a really hard kick to the knee.  The medic says "you have a torn ligament, you cannot continue."  *I am disqualified.
*
Now let's say I kick you in the face and knock you out.  The medic says "you have a concussion and cannot continue."  The ref says "it was a legal hit."  *I win by knockout.*


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## skribs (Apr 25, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> Theoretically. In theory, falling down to avoid being smacked will cost you points, too. In practice...
> The point was that the WT ruleset is ridiculous and needs a major overhaul.



I still don't know if falling down while scoring a point, if the point scores or if it doesn't count because it was scored during a penalty.

Getting a 4-point spinning hook and taking 1 point of penalty is a decent trade-off, unless the 4 points doesn't count.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 25, 2019)

skribs said:


> It depends on what happens.
> 
> Let's say I give you an almighty kick to the groin.  The pain is so bad you wanna throw up, and you can barely stand.  The medic comes over and checks you out, sees that you have no brain injury, no damage to bones or ligaments, and clears you to keep fighting.  *Because the medic has cleared you*, your option is to continue or forfeit.
> 
> ...


I can see the point there. I just think a big foul - big enough to make the other person not able or willing to continue - should be a DQ. Hard to make that fair in the rules, though - folks would game it from the other side.


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 25, 2019)

skribs said:


> I still don't know if falling down while scoring a point, if the point scores or if it doesn't count because it was scored during a penalty.
> 
> Getting a 4-point spinning hook and taking 1 point of penalty is a decent trade-off, unless the 4 points doesn't count.



Thank you for demonstrating one reason (of many) why the WT ruleset is ridiculous.


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## skribs (Apr 25, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I don't know - if being taken out by an illegal move makes that illegal move a win, that seems ridiculous to me. That's entirely from the outside, though, and I'm not sure I understand the intention of that.



That's the problem with a lot of rules.  I was trying to figure out how to make rules for a board game, and it's a nightmare.


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## gorilla2 (Apr 26, 2019)

skribs said:


> It depends on what happens.
> 
> Let's say I give you an almighty kick to the groin.  The pain is so bad you wanna throw up, and you can barely stand.  The medic comes over and checks you out, sees that you have no brain injury, no damage to bones or ligaments, and clears you to keep fighting.  *Because the medic has cleared you*, your option is to continue or forfeit.
> 
> ...


100% correct


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## gorilla2 (Apr 26, 2019)

100% correct


Danny T said:


> I also had trouble understand that 'clinch' isn't clinch but something else. Getting close? Then I viewed some TKD Clinching videos and what did I see. Clinching. Not just getting up close but wrapping their arms around each other. Not that anything was done in the clinch but, it was a clinch.
> 
> So now I'm even more confused.



The clinch used by “many” not all to stop the action...many fighters work out of the clinch and score...there is danger in working out of the clinch...you can get kicked in the head... many different strategies in the clinch depending on the strengths of each fighter...


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## dvcochran (Apr 26, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I don't know - if being taken out by an illegal move makes that illegal move a win, that seems ridiculous to me. That's entirely from the outside, though, and I'm not sure I understand the intention of that.


You are totally correct. If that happens (and it has) it was most likely errors in the judging/referee. It was much more egregious in the early years of Olympic TKD. Then the rules changed and there was too much cat & mouse, not enough contact. Now with the e-hogu I do not know the rules and scoring as well.


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## skribs (Apr 29, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> You are totally correct. If that happens (and it has) it was most likely errors in the judging/referee. It was much more egregious in the early years of Olympic TKD. Then the rules changed and there was too much cat & mouse, not enough contact. Now with the e-hogu I do not know the rules and scoring as well.



Keep in mind, most of what I've coached is kids matches at the local tournament.  And those are chock full of their own issues, let alone the crazy rules.

I've seen the chest and head sensors in the wrong gear, the blue and red sensors on the wrong person, badly calibrated sensors that basically give one person the match.  In the colored belts, they usually have regular hogus with the corner judges keeping score, and I've seen where on Mat 1 you have a score of 2-3 every match, and on Mat 2 you have a score of 25-34 every match...from fights with a similar amount of contact.


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## dvcochran (Apr 29, 2019)

skribs said:


> Keep in mind, most of what I've coached is kids matches at the local tournament.  And those are chock full of their own issues, let alone the crazy rules.
> 
> I've seen the chest and head sensors in the wrong gear, the blue and red sensors on the wrong person, badly calibrated sensors that basically give one person the match.  In the colored belts, they usually have regular hogus with the corner judges keeping score, and I've seen where on Mat 1 you have a score of 2-3 every match, and on Mat 2 you have a score of 25-34 every match...from fights with a similar amount of contact.


Does your organization have pre-tournament coaches meeting to discuss and show examples of what is and is Not a point(s)? It helps quite a lot. But the value can be diminished when you have more than a few un-certified or unexperienced judges. The very common scenario you described can be very frustrating for both parents, instructors/coaches, judges/referees, and the tournament crew causing an overall bad experience for a lot of people who attend the tourney. This easily has a ripple effect causing bad press and reputation for the tournament/hosting school publicly and reduced participation at the next tournament. 
Oh the dominos.


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## skribs (Apr 29, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Does your organization have pre-tournament coaches meeting to discuss and show examples of what is and is Not a point(s)? It helps quite a lot. But the value can be diminished when you have more than a few un-certified or unexperienced judges. The very common scenario you described can be very frustrating for both parents, instructors/coaches, judges/referees, and the tournament crew causing an overall bad experience for a lot of people who attend the tourney. This easily has a ripple effect causing bad press and reputation for the tournament/hosting school publicly and reduced participation at the next tournament.
> Oh the dominos.



They do, but not all of the coaches are there at that time.  For example, the meeting may be at 9:30 before adults start sparring, but then you're bringing a bunch of kids that are supposed to go at 1 (but probably won't get to go until 3 or 4).


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