# Trouble with my WC school



## trolloc63 (Feb 7, 2018)

Forgive the long post, but I have some concerns. I feel that my Wing Chun (WC) school is a bit of a McDojo. I would like to share my brief experience thus far.

To be clear, there is only 1 WC dojo in my area, so I have little choice. Anyway, I feel as if my school is more about the cash grab than anything else. I am paying $90 a month for an un-modified WC school. Moy Yat WC. There are also no pro-rated fees. If you start half way through the month, then you pay the full price. Also, the sihang (instructor) is regularly suggesting that I buy their merchandise and buy “funny money” for the sifu. I have heard this on multiple occasions. It is not an order, but it is highly suggested.

The sifu is rarely in class, usually on the weekends. Instead, the sihang (spelling?) is usually the one that teaches the class. He is “not the model of fitness”, which is a nice way of saying that he has gusto. I have been cautioned more than once about providing tips to other students when it comes to training. I have a diverse but limited background in Aikido, BJJ, and Krav Maga.

Needless to say, that I am somewhat frustrated with how things are going. While I enjoy what I am learning, I feel like I’m getting watered down WC. And the atmosphere is like a social club, and that is not why I am there. I’m interested in taking my WC and implementing some self-defense aspects to it.

Penny for your thoughts?


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## Anarax (Feb 7, 2018)

trolloc63 said:


> Forgive the long post, but I have some concerns. I feel that my Wing Chun (WC) school is a bit of a McDojo. I would like to share my brief experience thus far.
> 
> To be clear, there is only 1 WC dojo in my area, so I have little choice. Anyway, I feel as if my school is more about the cash grab than anything else. I am paying $90 a month for an un-modified WC school. Moy Yat WC. There are also no pro-rated fees. If you start half way through the month, then you pay the full price. Also, the sihang (instructor) is regularly suggesting that I buy their merchandise and buy “funny money” for the sifu. I have heard this on multiple occasions. It is not an order, but it is highly suggested.
> 
> ...



With matters like these you should always go with your gut. I've had these realizations before and in the end I knew it was best to leave. Based off your description it sounds like a poor school to attend. The heavy commercialism is almost never a good sign.

Opposed to being dead set on training WC, try out other styles/schools in your area. It's more about the quality of the teaching rather than the style


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## Headhunter (Feb 8, 2018)

Well the money thing is your choice but the other stuff is unimportant. Maybe the instructor can't teach for whatever reason so gets his student to do it. As for being fat. Who cares he's a wing chun coach not a PT. lastly yeah of course you shouldn't be trying to teach other students different martial arts during class time it's not your club and not your place to do so.


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## drop bear (Feb 8, 2018)

Do MMA.


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## wckf92 (Feb 8, 2018)

trolloc63 said:


> I feel like I’m getting watered down WC.



Hi trolloc63. 
How do you know or feel that it is watered down? Are you comparing it to some other versions of WC you have seen? Just curious. Thx.


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## wckf92 (Feb 8, 2018)

trolloc63 said:


> To be clear, there is only 1 WC dojo in my area, so I have little choice.



I'm sure you've done your research to make a statement like that but we always recommend giving us your location or general location just in case one of us knows of or has heard of an underground / unadvertised instructor in your area... food for thought Bro.


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## trolloc63 (Feb 8, 2018)

wckf92 said:


> Hi trolloc63.
> How do you know or feel that it is watered down? Are you comparing it to some other versions of WC you have seen? Just curious. Thx.



As opposed to some of the wing chun masters I have seen on YouTube. Sifu Mark Phillips, Master Wong. But I really have nothing to compare it to.


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## trolloc63 (Feb 8, 2018)

wckf92 said:


> I'm sure you've done your research to make a statement like that but we always recommend giving us your location or general location just in case one of us knows of or has heard of an underground / unadvertised instructor in your area... food for thought Bro.



I like in the US, in the state of Nebraska.


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## hoshin1600 (Feb 8, 2018)

i never understand why people stay in situations they know they are unhappy with.


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## Poppity (Feb 8, 2018)

trolloc63 said:


> As opposed to some of the wing chun masters I have seen on YouTube. Sifu Mark Phillips, Master Wong. But I really have nothing to compare it to.



They are both very nice guys, but they have both adopted outside influences into their wing chun, whereas Moy Yat is more old school... it might be worth having a look of videos from other branches of Moy Yat, to see how your school measures up.


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## Martial D (Feb 8, 2018)

trolloc63 said:


> As opposed to some of the wing chun masters I have seen on YouTube. Sifu Mark Phillips, Master Wong. But I really have nothing to compare it to.


Phillips is legit, Wong is... entertaining.

Honestly, I would recommend you get what you can where you can, and test and analyze everything you learn to the best of your ability.


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## Poppity (Feb 8, 2018)

Phillips definitely has skills, no doubt, but he seems to have adopted I kind of Alan Orr approach of a more rounded almost MMA style of Wing Chun... no bad thing.. but it will not look like a Moy Yat form.


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## PiedmontChun (Feb 8, 2018)

1) $90 is not unreasonable, certainly not for a school with rent to pay in a retail space. You need a decent amount of students to even break even at that price point. In metro city areas, it is not uncommon to see more. Even kids programs cost $90 where I live for monthly fees.
2) The whole "not pro-rating" thing might just be more problematic from a billing company perspective, or lazy way of doing business, not shady in itself. When I signed a contract to train at a school, you picked the date you wanted it drafted, but tuition was for the whole month, not some arbitrary period of time based on when it is billed. I mean bottom line, if you know this is how it is done, then I would join up when a new month starts to make it cleaner and simpler.

Concerns:
1) If an instructor is rarely there, I think it really depends on the skill level and teaching ability of who they entrust the normal class instruction to. I have been in BJJ academys where the black belt instructor did not interact with the lower belts much and only taught limited classes, but it was not a big deal because he had MANY brown and purple belts that helped and were fully capable of instructing. He devoted a lot of time to those upper belts, trickle down training style. It made sense. In WT, I often learned more from senior students or an instructor other than my SiFu. I would be concerned if the SiFu spent so little time with his students that he was not familiar with their overall progress, or did not check on them and correct issues or bad habits.
2) If it feels watered down, then trust your gut; it just might be watered down. Is there sparring? Is there chi sau / gor sau with actual pressure and intent? Or is it all forms and drills with no pressure. Different people land in a different place on _*how much pressure*_ is needed and what should be _*emphasized*_, but if you aren't breaking a sweat at some point in a class, getting some bruises on your arms occasionally, eating a punch to the torso once in a while..... you aren't learning to fight at all. Sorry if that offends any who are more interested in just 'preserving the art' and not as interested in fighting ability, but it is a *martial* art. if you are physically capable of training hard, and you don't - I think you are shortchanging yourself.


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## TMA17 (Feb 8, 2018)

Experienced something similar at a Moy Yat school in terms of “Kung Fu life” which had similarities you expressed.  However I felt the quality of the WC was top notch in terms of attention to detail and structure.

The TWC school is less serious and more focused on scenarios in fighting along with the incorporation of boxing elements.

I went to a private lesson last night with a guy that studied in the Moy Yat lineage and it was the best lesson I ever had bc it was just he and I.

The Moy Yat guys show you the structure and give you the attributes but will not turn you into a fighter.  That’s up to the individual.  And I don’t think that is a bad thing.  We sparred at the Moy Yat school.  Moy Yat is considered by some to be “cult like” but I felt the quality of the WC is very good.  But there are likely bad Sifus in any lineage.

If you’re looking to learn how to fight do MMA as DB said.


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## trolloc63 (Feb 8, 2018)

PiedmontChun said:


> 1) $90 is not unreasonable, certainly not for a school with rent to pay in a retail space. You need a decent amount of students to even break even at that price point. In metro city areas, it is not uncommon to see more. Even kids programs cost $90 where I live for monthly fees.
> 2) The whole "not pro-rating" thing might just be more problematic from a billing company perspective, or lazy way of doing business, not shady in itself. When I signed a contract to train at a school, you picked the date you wanted it drafted, but tuition was for the whole month, not some arbitrary period of time based on when it is billed. I mean bottom line, if you know this is how it is done, then I would join up when a new month starts to make it cleaner and simpler.
> 
> Concerns:
> ...



No sparring. As I said before, many students stand around and visit. All the fundamentals are there, but pressure testing is minimal. Maybe it is just me. I come from a BJJ/Krav Maga background. I'm there learning with determination, not to socialize.


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## trolloc63 (Feb 8, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> i never understand why people stay in situations they know they are unhappy with.



Becuz there is no other WC in my area. Then again, I may have to leave anyway.


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## trolloc63 (Feb 8, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> Experienced something similar at a Moy Yat school in terms of “Kung Fu life” which had similarities you expressed.  However I felt the quality of the WC was top notch in terms of attention to detail and structure.
> 
> The TWC school is less serious and more focused on scenarios in fighting along with the incorporation of boxing elements.
> 
> ...



 I think what I will have to do is learn as much as I can becuz there are no other choices for me. When I feel more competent with my WC, I can take it and make it my own.


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## PiedmontChun (Feb 8, 2018)

trolloc63 said:


> I think what I will have to do is learn as much as I can becuz there are no other choices for me. When I feel more competent with my WC, I can take it and make it my own.


If you've trained other arts and are accustomed to more pressure testing, then you are mentally a step ahead of your training partners if this WC school is their only martial art training. Its not impossible to take what you learn there, principle and concept wise, and take it and make it your own. That's an uphill battle though.

I really don't get the no sparring at all. Most all arts spar in some form. Its how you get better, or at least is a test on your ability. Chi sau'ing with little pressure, and never ramping it up is what will ultimately make WC just a cool parlor trick and not a fighting art.


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## Herbie (Feb 8, 2018)

To the OP.
Regarding providing tips to classmates.  Yeah, stop that.  If you're in a school where folks are interested in other approaches, and you've been there a while, that's fine.  But nobody anywhere wants to hear the new guy saying, "well, in my old school, we did this..."  
Second, why are you so locked in on only learning WC?  If the only WC school in the area is not a good fit, move on to something else.  If you eventually try multiple WC schools and none meet your expectations, maybe your expectations of what real WC is, is not realistic.


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## geezer (Feb 8, 2018)

trolloc63 said:


> ...Also, the sihang (instructor) is regularly suggesting that I buy their merchandise and buy *“funny money”* for the sifu. I have heard this on multiple occasions



What's "funny money"?


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## trolloc63 (Feb 8, 2018)

geezer said:


> What's "funny money"?


Some special thing called funny money that he wants me to buy for sifu. Some thing you get at one of those Asian outfitter stores. No idea what it is.


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## wckf92 (Feb 8, 2018)

trolloc63 said:


> Some special thing called funny money that he wants me to buy for sifu. Some thing you get at one of those Asian outfitter stores. No idea what it is.



Funny money? Or Lucky Money? I think the latter is presented in a special red envelope with cold hard cash inside(?)


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## trolloc63 (Feb 8, 2018)

Herbie said:


> To the OP.
> Regarding providing tips to classmates.  Yeah, stop that.  If you're in a school where folks are interested in other approaches, and you've been there a while, that's fine.  But nobody anywhere wants to hear the new guy saying, "well, in my old school, we did this..."
> Second, why are you so locked in on only learning WC?  If the only WC school in the area is not a good fit, move on to something else.  If you eventually try multiple WC schools and none meet your expectations, maybe your expectations of what real WC is, is not realistic.



To answer your question, I was interested in 2 different styles at one point. Aikido and WC. The Aikido fell through after trying different schools. I found it to be very impractical on how it was taught in this area. That's when I tried WC. Seeing how there is only 1 school here, I'm kind of stuck on either doing it or not.

I have no idea what I'm going to do at this point. I started Aikido because I thought it would be somewhat practical. Be seeing is believing for me. Watching Steven Segal is one thing. But actually watching online vids of Aikido working in real life is another. Thus, I left Aikido.

So for WC, I saw online classes and vids of both Master Wong and Sifu Mark Phillips. These seemed to be very practical. But here again, I'm not going to get that here in Nebraska. I'm going to get the traditional stuff only.


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## TMA17 (Feb 8, 2018)

It's "Lucky Money" (Hung Bo) not funny money.  It's traditional to show respect.  It's also given during celebrations or ceremonies.


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## trolloc63 (Feb 8, 2018)

wckf92 said:


> Funny money? Or Lucky Money? I think the latter is presented in a special red envelope with cold hard cash inside(?)



yeah, lucky money


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## TMA17 (Feb 8, 2018)

You can either leave the art and find something more "fight" oriented with more sparring/aliveness, or learn the structure and traditional approach and take that and make it your own.  WC is new to me so I understand where you're coming from.


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## trolloc63 (Feb 8, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> You can either leave the art and find something more "fight" oriented with more sparring/aliveness, or learn the structure and traditional approach and take that and make it your own.  WC is new to me so I understand where you're coming from.



I am planning to take up boxing very soon. So perhaps that will be a good compromise. I just have a hard time with the soft structure bit, and relaxing. I dont feel the soft structure will stop hard punches on the street. But again, i'm a noobtard.


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## TMA17 (Feb 8, 2018)

I understand your dilemma.  I love boxing too.  It's simple and effective.  Also consider WC can look and be applied this way:






You do have to  step in and bang with WC and most schools don't seem to stress that. In WC, you turn your body into a bundle of attack reflexes.  In a real fight, all you have to do is react.


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## trolloc63 (Feb 8, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> I understand your dilemma.  I love boxing too.  It's simple and effective.  Also consider WC can look and be applied this way:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Good stuff. After watching too many Sifu Phillips and Master Wong vids, I do believe that WC can be made practical. This supports these arguments. The problem in my eyes, is getting to that close range distance.


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## jks9199 (Feb 8, 2018)

Okay...  Not going back to pull the original post and subsequent replies in, because I'm being a little lazy.  

First, rates and pro-rating, money in general...  $90 doesn't seem bad at all.  It seems like you have several training opportunities each week, so if you broke it down into a per class fee, I'm guessing you're looking at under $10 a class...    Pro-rating?  Well, that sucks, but may not be practical, or it's simply run as a club, and the fees are your monthly dues, whether you join on the 1st or the 31st.  There may be rent, insurance, gear... in short, the owner has bills to pay.  Buying gear from the school may help support the school -- or simply ensures that students have the right gear in the instructor's eyes.  The Lucky Money thing?  It's cultural. Someone should have explained it better to you...  but if someone's pressuring me for extra money -- I'm going to ask questions until I do understand why.

Second, the master not teaching much...  Can't say.  I was incredibly fortunate to have a master instructor that had no business teaching beginners teach me from day one.  It's not uncommon for masters to have advanced students teach beginner classes so that they can focus on teaching the advanced material.  In fact, sometimes, it's hard for a master instructor to teach beginners because they have to suppress much of what they do, and really focus on bringing out the fundamentals.  Not everyone can be "backwards compatible" that way...   There may also be other reasons -- health, personal life, full time job...  If you're concerned, discuss it with the senior student... and perhaps, then, the master.

Third, "offering tips."  This ties into your assessment of the school's quality, and other arts.  Who the hell are you to offer tips, to disrupt the class, or assess a style that you're just beginning in?  How many decades of training, what sort of experience do you have to judge?   As I read your experience in wing chun -- the most "advice" you should be offering your classmates is "gee, it looked to me like sihung Joe did this..."  You read like a dabbler and a guy who spends a lot of time on internet videos.  Settle down, take your time, and actually learn something before you try to make it more, or infuse your own interpretation on it.  Maybe I'm wrong -- but that's how you're coming across.


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## wayfaring (Mar 1, 2018)

trolloc63 said:


> Becuz there is no other WC in my area. Then again, I may have to leave anyway.


I'm over in Colorado.  I have a brother in St. Louis area.  If you are ever traveling welcome to stop by.


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## pdg (Mar 2, 2018)

jks9199 said:


> Okay... Not going back to pull the original post and subsequent replies in, because I'm being a little lazy.



Me too!

The 'watered down' aspect - how long have you being doing it? 

I have no knowledge of WC specifically but in any art you start somewhere. It has to be watered down to begin with because frankly you don't have a clue.

And you compare it to other arts and the way they apply techniques - then try to 'advise' on how other students apply techniques, using your probably very incorrect and influenced opinion. Shut up and listen.

You say you want to learn the traditional art, gain competency then change it to make it your own - honestly that's a childish view. How on earth do you know you need to change anything?

You seem much like all those YouTube idiots claiming to be making their own blended versions because the 3 weeks they did in 4 different arts didn't seem 'tactical' enough...


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## acleitao (Apr 17, 2018)

pdg said:


> You say you want to learn the traditional art, gain competency then change it to make it your own - honestly that's a childish view. How on earth do you know you need to change anything?



Ok... I just create an account to answer to this... no offenses and no hard feelings. I don't have a deep knowledge of wing chun but... As far as I know... wing chun is a system and it accepts modifications. What I heard for the same moy yat family representant (I started at that branch) we suppose to learn the whole system to then internalize it and modify if we need it (of course keeping the basics intact)

About the watered down... I'm sorry buddy its not watering down... if you compare with other arts like taekwondo, bjj and all other stuff you will only get frustrated. Again all in favor of sparring, pressure on chi saw... and actually we have that in our club... but... far... far... far.. away what i had in taekwondo ... its different... give it a try... wait few months... you are not preparing yourself to get in a UFC tomorrow... don't need to rush it... you will understand that the basics make it better... you can't just start sparring without any previous experience with the art... (I tried... wasn't good... i didn't know what the hell i should do)

and I will agree with everybody... unless some one asks... and without your sifu or instructor permission don't give hints or tips... about any techniques... its just not polite.


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## wingchun100 (Apr 19, 2018)

trolloc63 said:


> Forgive the long post, but I have some concerns. I feel that my Wing Chun (WC) school is a bit of a McDojo. I would like to share my brief experience thus far.
> 
> To be clear, there is only 1 WC dojo in my area, so I have little choice. Anyway, I feel as if my school is more about the cash grab than anything else. I am paying $90 a month for an un-modified WC school. Moy Yat WC. There are also no pro-rated fees. If you start half way through the month, then you pay the full price. Also, the sihang (instructor) is regularly suggesting that I buy their merchandise and buy “funny money” for the sifu. I have heard this on multiple occasions. It is not an order, but it is highly suggested.
> 
> ...



I am going to break this down how I see it.

1) While martial arts schools do need to make money to pay the rent, I don't get a good feeling from full-price for only half a month. Imagine paying full price at McDonald's, and they give you half a cheeseburger.

2) As for the merchandise push...that is capitalism at work. Pay it no mind.

3) Hmm...why is the Sifu hardly ever there?

4) The one who actually teaches is not a model of fitness? I wouldn't worry about that. I have a pot belly myself, but I still know my stuff.

5) You can't give tips to your classmates. Why is that? Is it because they feel you are too new at it to be able to provide tips, or is it something else? The Sifu I used to train with did that. Once, while doing Chi Sao with someone new to it, I gave them a tip. He overheard it and took me outside the class to say, "I am glad you are making so many advancements, but those are for YOU...not anyone else." I thought, "What is so wrong about wanting to help my Wing Chun brothers and sisters advance too???"


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## Headhunter (Apr 22, 2018)

wingchun100 said:


> I am going to break this down how I see it.
> 
> 1) While martial arts schools do need to make money to pay the rent, I don't get a good feeling from full-price for only half a month. Imagine paying full price at McDonald's, and they give you half a cheeseburger.
> 
> ...


I agree with what he said to you your advancements are yours they work for you because you figured that works for you. Students need to figure out what works for themselves everyone is different. My late instructor had a saying. He said everyone has the right to do their techniques differently as long as they can say why but when it comes to teaching everyone needs to be on the same page or it'll cause confusion for students. Also I hate quoting movies but this one sticks out for me in the forbidden Kingdom "learn the way then find your own way" basically yes you can do your own changes but you have to learn the base first. Like a writer has to learn the alphabet and basic words before he can have his own unique writing style.


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## wingchun100 (Apr 23, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> I agree with what he said to you your advancements are yours they work for you because you figured that works for you. Students need to figure out what works for themselves everyone is different. My late instructor had a saying. He said everyone has the right to do their techniques differently as long as they can say why but when it comes to teaching everyone needs to be on the same page or it'll cause confusion for students. Also I hate quoting movies but this one sticks out for me in the forbidden Kingdom "learn the way then find your own way" basically yes you can do your own changes but you have to learn the base first. Like a writer has to learn the alphabet and basic words before he can have his own unique writing style.



I disagree with it because I think we can all learn from each other. Yes, it was MY "aha" moment, but mine could lead someone else to theirs. Also, the student I shared this with was not 100% new to Chi Sao. I mean, I could understand it if it was the first time he had let this particular person in on it, but it wasn't. And not for nothing, but if it is my moment, then I feel it is mine to share as I see fit. I'll share it with the guy standing at the bus stop talking to himself if I feel like it. LOL


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