# CMC style



## marlon (Dec 15, 2006)

Any onfo on this style pros and cons and why the differences from Yang family style and also any good teachers in the Montreal to Boston area?

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## dmax999 (Dec 15, 2006)

I'll have to say William CC Chen is probably one of the best.  He is located in New York City.  He also does seminars about the country.

The form is done "more relaxed" then traditional Yang (In quotes because its not an entirely true statement but for beginners it makes better sense).  The stances in the form are more upright, and there are numerous little changes.  Yang family does not consider CMC's style to be offical Yang style in any way.


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 15, 2006)

Agreed William CC Chen is definitely one of the best for CMC and he is very martial art oriented. He has 2 teachers in Massachusetts and one in Canada that are listed on his site

William C. C. Chen Tai Chi Chuan
http://www.williamccchen.com/

http://www.williamccchen.com/teachers.htm#ma

Sifu Jimmy Morris
South Shore Internal Arts Association
33 Railroad Avenue  -  suite 2
Duxbury,  MA  02332
phone:   781-934-7880
fax:      781-934-8220
email:     jmmorris@fmallc.com 
website:  www.southshoreinternalarts.com 

Sifu Alan Shapiro
99 High Street
Newton, MA 02164
phone:  617-244-2499

British Columbia 
Sifu Robert Morris
7-7218  Progress Way
Delta   British Columbia
Canada
phone:   604-306-9423
email:     Robertico_58@hotmail.com


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## grappling_mandala (Dec 15, 2006)

"and why the differences from Yang family style"

Lets not overlook the important question: 

Further questions concerning CMC's interpretation of Yangs form:

1. CMC form structure is Yangs108 3rd section "simplified".
2. Single Whip (Hips 45 deg closed vs. 45 deg opened)
2. Missing pieces of grasp sparrow sequence in CMC style?
4. Maiden Hands?

Some of these differences are address is Yang Cheng Fu's son's book on Yang Style. He also address CMC's co-author/editorship of Yangs book in 1934. He states a number of observations clearly in the last few pages of his book. I believe that book was published in 1954?


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 15, 2006)

Some of the differences are also addressed in Cheng Manching's book 
Cheng Tzu's 13 treatises on Tai Chi Chuan
(EDIT: I recommend this book to any one practicing Tai Chi)

I do traditional Yang style and have for many years but I did give CMC a try in the William CC Chen line and I did like it but I am a Traditional Yang Style Person (Tung Ying Chieh line) and remain so.

But I will say this for CC Chen that I do not see in many traditional Yang schools; he is very interested in the martial side.


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## tshadowchaser (Dec 15, 2006)

I have heard good things about Sifu Alan Shapiro
but have never met him myslef


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## pete (Dec 15, 2006)

story i heard was that w.chen was already teaching in nyc when cmc arrived, and what cmc began teaching here was nothing like what he taught back in taiwan. chen continued to teach 'old style cmc', prob'ly why its well regarded martially...no faerie ladyfingers~


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## East Winds (Dec 16, 2006)

marlon,

I've posted this link before, but it gives a fairly even and unbiased comparison of the CMC and Traditonal Yang Family forms.

http://sataichi.com/compare.html

Very best wishes


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 16, 2006)

pete said:


> story i heard was that w.chen was already teaching in nyc when cmc arrived, and what cmc began teaching here was nothing like what he taught back in taiwan. chen continued to teach 'old style cmc', prob'ly why its well regarded martially...no faerie ladyfingers~


 
I have not heard that story but it would not surprise me. 

I can say William CC Chen got here in 1962 and Cheng Manching did not arrive in the US until 1964 I believe


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## dmax999 (Dec 17, 2006)

pete said:


> story i heard was that w.chen was already teaching in nyc when cmc arrived, and what cmc began teaching here was nothing like what he taught back in taiwan. chen continued to teach 'old style cmc', prob'ly why its well regarded martially...no faerie ladyfingers~


I didn't think this sounded accurate, so I checked up and found this autobiography by William CC Chen.
http://www.williamccchen.com/biograph.htm
This should clarify his history. It looks like he originally started studying Tai Chi under CMC and never anyone else. I thought I remembered him saying he knew a different CMA before he started Tai Chi and had been in numerous full contact fights before he learned Tai Chi, but I can't be sure on what I remember of that.

I believe William CC Chen has made his own set of changes to what he learned from CMC. However, his is probably one of the closest to true CMC as you can find plus he is a very excellent teacher.


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## East Winds (Dec 17, 2006)

William CC Chen came to Scotland 3 or 4 years ago and I had the privelage of pushing with him. Although I am not CMC enthusiast, I must agree with others about his ability.

Very best wishes


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 17, 2006)

dmax999 said:


> I believe William CC Chen has made his own set of changes to what he learned from CMC. However, his is probably one of the closest to true CMC as you can find plus he is a very excellent teacher.



Yes he has, just see his article on the 3 nails and you will see a major difference.

http://www.williamccchen.com/3nails.htm



East Winds said:


> William CC Chen came to Scotland 3 or 4 years ago and I had the privelage of pushing with him. Although I am not CMC enthusiast, I must agree with others about his ability.
> 
> Very best wishes



Same here only differences were in was not in Scotland in was in New York and this past year

I was very impressed by William CC Chen and his skill. I was also extremely impressed by his views on Tai Chi and how it works for fighting from his idea of the 3 nails to how you should move your hand and fingers for a punch. He is highly skilled, the real deal and very interested in all aspects of tai chi including the martial side. 

I would love to spend a lot of time training with him, and this is coming form a long time traditional Yang guy who once called CMC style too soft. 

One of the people he lists as a teacher does live close to me, however our schedules do not even come close to matching up, but who knows maybe later.


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## marlon (Dec 17, 2006)

Thank you all very much.  Hopefully, i will find a cmc teacher asa i feel drawn to the style based on what has been discussed here  (XS i will look for that book).  For now i will learn the 103 Yang family form and see were things lead.  Any tips on practice and training is certainly more than welcome.

respectfully,
Marlon


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## marlon (Dec 17, 2006)

Great articles,
and clips of the forms or push hands for the cmc style?

Respectfully,
Marlon
many thanks again...this stuff is very exciting!!


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## marlon (Dec 17, 2006)

grappling_mandala said:


> "and why the differences from Yang family style"
> 
> Lets not overlook the important question:
> 
> ...


 
Do you know the title of the book?

Marlon


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## marlon (Dec 17, 2006)

grappling_mandala said:


> "and why the differences from Yang family style"
> 
> Lets not overlook the important question:
> 
> ...


 
Do you practice this style?

Marlon


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## East Winds (Dec 17, 2006)

marlon,

There is a book by Yang Zhen Ji (Yang Cheng-fu's 2nd son) : "Yang Chengfu shi taijiquan" (Yang Chengfu Style Taijiquan) Published by Guangxi Minzu Chubanshe in 1993 : It is in Chinese.

or the book by his 3rd son
"Yang Style Taijiquan" by Yang Zhen Duo : Morning Glory Publishers Beijing
ISBN 7-5054-0481-4/G*0100 (In English)

or there is "The Essence and Applications of Taijiquan" by Yang Chengfu himself and published in 1934 it has been translated by Louis Swaim in 2005 and published by North Atlantic Books ISBN 1-55643-545-2

Interestingly enough this last book was probably "ghost written" by Cheng Man Ching and based on an earlier book byTung Ying Chieh (Taijiquan shiyongfa) written in 1931.

The Yang Zhen Duo and Louis Swaim books are both available from Amazon.

Hope this helps

Very best wishes


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## marlon (Dec 17, 2006)

Perfect.  Thak you very much.  Now i have a Christmas gift to get for myself...

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## wuchi (Dec 18, 2006)

Marlon,

Have you done any other tai chi before? Why such a deep interest in CMC tai chi?

As for myself I regard myself first and foremost a devoted tai chi practitioner, and second a dedicated CMC tai chi practitioner. It was only by chance I learnt this particular style of tai chi.


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## marlon (Dec 18, 2006)

wuchi said:


> Marlon,
> 
> Have you done any other tai chi before? Why such a deep interest in CMC tai chi?
> 
> As for myself I regard myself first and foremost a devoted tai chi practitioner, and second a dedicated CMC tai chi practitioner. It was only by chance I learnt this particular style of tai chi.


 

I am learning the 103 Yang form from a Yang family school.  I did learn qi gong from a taiji master...i do not know which style, but the school was called 7 stars. His name was Irving Leoung.  He told me to continue further i would need to take up taiji, but at the time i did not have more free time nor the proper inclination.  Many of the very high level shaolin kempo people with F.Villari practice CMC taiji.  the higher stance and differing waist rotation and from the discussions on this forum are what make me want to do this style.  Also, i just feel drawn to it, for an unexplicable reason i feel that it has the answers i am looking to articulate.

Respectfully,
marlon


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## marlon (Dec 18, 2006)

Also, very importantly , l am attracted to his emphasis on fighting.  Taiji as a practical martial art is not always taught.

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 18, 2006)

marlon said:


> Taiji as a practical martial art is not always taught.
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon


 
This is true, but be careful; you can find CMC schools that do not teach the martial art as well. 

However you are more likely to find an alleged Yang style school teaching Tai chi light than just about any other style, but then there are more of them out there.

If you find a true Chen or Yang school you WILL get martial arts but and school for school you are more likely to find martial arts at more Chen Schools than Yang. As for Wu and Hao styles I am not sure. Sun I am also not sure but I am guessing with Sun that there are so few schools of it likely it is still taught as a martial art. Zhaobao is even rarer and more likely to be taught as a real martial art. However I have seen 1 school that teaches Sun Light, Chen light and Zhaobao light as well (form ONLY).

But with any style of Tai Chi school you need to be careful if you are looking for one that teaches real Tai Chi martial arts. 

However I do feel that if you really want CMC Tai Chi and you train with William CC Chen or one of his students you are on the right path.

Good luck
XS


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## grappling_mandala (Dec 22, 2006)

> or there is "The Essence and Applications of Taijiquan" by Yang Chengfu himself and published in 1934 it has been translated by Louis Swaim in 2005 and published by North Atlantic Books ISBN 1-55643-545-2
> 
> Interestingly enough this last book was probably "ghost written" by Cheng Man Ching and based on an earlier book byTung Ying Chieh (Taijiquan shiyongfa) written in 1931.



If you look closely at that book you will find that fair maiden works shuttles has at least one of it's negatives reversed, and for some reason the grasp sparrows tail sequence is lacking parts. It is curious that the later part of this work that was "edited" by CMC closely resembles "in format" the CMC 37 posture form. I agree that Essense and Applications was probably "ghost written". 

I am still curious about why CMC didn't open his lead hip w/ single whip or shoulder stroke, etc. His hips are closed in these postures. I've experimented w/ both approaches and have chosen to follow Yang Cheng Fu's examples because it feels better to me to open the lead hip instead of close it.


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## grappling_mandala (Dec 22, 2006)

marlon said:


> Do you practice this style?
> 
> Marlon



Yes


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## East Winds (Dec 23, 2006)

grappling madala,

Yes, intersting points you raise!! The single whip/open hips by Yang Cheng-fu, allows the back hand to be over the back leg and the front hand to be over the front leg. Very important for stablity and strength. Try it with the hips closed and get someone to push on your right (hook) hand then try it with the hip open and back hand over back leg. The difference will be apparent immediately. And of course one of the important points about Traditional Yang is that if the leading hand and leading leg are on the same side (as in Single Whip or Fan through Back etc.) the hips should be open. If the leading hand and leading legs are opposites (as in Brush and Push) the hips should be closed. I have no idea why CMC felt the need to change so many thing from what YCF taught. Thats a whole new thread 

Very best wishes


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## grappling_mandala (Dec 24, 2006)

> one of the important points about Traditional Yang is that if the leading hand and leading leg are on the same side (as in Single Whip or Fan through Back etc.) the hips should be open. If the leading hand and leading legs are opposites (as in Brush and Push) the hips should be closed.



Excellent points. Still trying to find info on why CMC changed that aspect in his own interpretation of the art as well.


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## wuchi (Dec 26, 2006)

> Originally posted by *grappling_mandala*
> 
> I am still curious about why CMC didn't open his lead hip w/ single whip or shoulder stroke, etc. His hips are closed in these postures. I've experimented w/ both approaches and have chosen to follow Yang Cheng Fu's examples because it feels better to me to open the lead hip instead of close it.



I have three books "The Essence and Applications of Taijiquan" by Yang Chengfu, "Cheng Tzu's 13 Tai Chi Treatises on Tai Chi Chuan" by CMC,  "Cheng's New Method of Tai Chi Self-Cultivation" by CMC in front of me.

Comparisons: 
(1) Single Whip - in the "13 Treatises" the picture of CMC is almost a 100% match to that of YCF, in "Cheng's New Method..."  the posture is higher. In both CMC's books the lead hip was in an open position in my opinion.

(2) Shoulder Stroke - there were no photos in YCF's book with this post. Again in this position the lead hip is in an open position in both CMC's books in my opinion. 

Personally I have done them with open lead hip position as far as I can remember. One must admit in his latter book his posture is much higher. His circles are a lot smaller plus his robe; it becomes harder for one to see and at a higher level of tai chi one shifts the attention more toward the open and close of the energy and how it changes inside rather than rely purely on the physical posture alone.


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## East Winds (Dec 26, 2006)

wuchi,

"at a higher level of tai chi one shifts the attention more toward the open and close of the energy and how it changes inside rather than rely purely on the physical posture alone."

Absolutely agree, however the external posture is merely a physical manifestation of what is happening internally.....or at least it SHOULD be.

It is interesting to comapre the postures of Chengfu and CMC and it is quite apparent that CMC changed the postures quite considerably. Certainly more so than Fu Zhong Wen, Chen Wei Ming and Dong Ying Chieh, all inner door students of Chengfu.

Very best wishes


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## marlon (Dec 28, 2006)

found this





 




 




 





 

I find the first 2 very informativr and helpful...but my opinion is very uniformed.   What do you see?

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## marlon (Jan 1, 2007)

wuchi said:


> I have three books "The Essence and Applications of Taijiquan" by Yang Chengfu, "Cheng Tzu's 13 Tai Chi Treatises on Tai Chi Chuan" by CMC, "Cheng's New Method of Tai Chi Self-Cultivation" by CMC in front of me.
> 
> Comparisons:
> (1) Single Whip - in the "13 Treatises" the picture of CMC is almost a 100% match to that of YCF, in "Cheng's New Method..." the posture is higher. In both CMC's books the lead hip was in an open position in my opinion.
> ...


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