# Age limit for Black Belts?



## KenpoDragon (May 11, 2003)

I would like to know everyone's input on this one, do you believe that there should be an age limit for someone to be promoted to a Black Belt??? I just read on another martial arts forum about a 9 year old testing for his Black Belt. Can a 9 year old kid really have the knowledge that a Black Belt should have??? Can a 9 year old kid have the maturity level that a Black Belt should have??? Can a 9 year old kid have the control a Black Belt should have??? Can a 9 year old kid understand the potential for damage of what they are doing??? I personally wouldn't promote anyone under the age of 16. That's just my opinion though, I would very much like to hear everyone elses opinion.:asian: 

                                                          With honor and respect,
                                                                          KenpoDragon


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## Wmarden (May 11, 2003)

I suppose if the kid can do all the movements of all the various forms., then in certain arts the child could indeed be considered a black belt.  Though I question the art that a kid can gain such a high rank so young in.  I won't mention any arts, but i recall seeing a young blackbelt younger than me when I was a yellow belt back when I was 10-11.  

MY jujitsu sensei won't even teach children because of the maturity issue and safety concerns inherent in an art that emphasizes joint manipulation.  So your 16 is about when he might start teaching a person.  So I suppose it is perspective.  

As for being worried, why worry what people call their students.   People do rediculous stupid stuff all the time.

I would certainly worry about the maturity issue with some kids being able to learn some things.  When I worked at a mental hospital for children, I heard of a kid at another facility that was a higher belt in some art who was hell on wheels for the staff.


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## chufeng (May 11, 2003)

KenpoDragon,

I agree with you...
Even if a kid is REALLY good, I'd wait to promote to black sash until at least 16...

:asian:
chufeng


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## Nightingale (May 11, 2003)

the thing with kids...

you have to acknowledge their accomplishments and give them feedback. otherwise they get discouraged and quit, which doesn't do you or them any good.  Its silly to stop an 11 year old child at 1st brown and make them wait five years to test for black.  They're not going to wait around.

What I've seen people do that worked really well....

have junior rankings.  The junior belts are colored with a white stripe down the middle.  For the junior ranks, the child must learn all forms, but half the techniques (pick the ones that work best for children being attacked by an adult).  When the child reaches the rank of "junior" black belt, their belt is a black belt with a white stripe.  They then join the adult classes and start to go back and learn what they missed from yellow belt, and receive a black belt with a yellow stripe, then a black belt with an orange stripe, and so on.  By the time they go through all of this and receive a regular black belt, they'll be at least 16, or some kind of prodigy (there should always be exceptions... Ms. Diserae Phillips, 2nd Black, age 14, comes to mind here), solving your age issue without actually placing an age limit on it, and keeping the kids in a zone where they can always earn more rank, giving them a goal.


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## MountainSage (May 11, 2003)

I am a strong believer in setting an age limit for BB qualification.  My concern is that most pre-teen, teens, and a number of twenty somethings don't have the maturity of mind to hold that rank.  They can physically complete the requirements, but they don't have maturity or life experiance.  Remember the name of the game is getting the most BB in your particular style. I am a TKD person, so I understand this to be important to the higher ups.  Masters get promoted for promoting people under them.  Keeping in mind that I am 35 yrs old, minimum age should be at least 18 years old and a high school diploma or equivalent.  For some that may be to young and others to old based on maturity.

Mountain Sage


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## chufeng (May 11, 2003)

> Its silly to stop an 11 year old child at 1st brown



I think it's equally as silly to have an 11 year old ikkyu...
I think there should be junior grades for junior students.

I say I will accept students no younger than seven...but I've never had a student younger than fifteen who actually stayed.
Why? Because real training is hard work and requires a lot of concentration and, yes, it is boring, at times...

I won't dumb down the system because of someone's age...

Now, if I had an all children's class, I could structure a program with activities that seem like games...keep all blocks of instruction to twenty minutes and then move on to something else...etc. But I am not running a day care and I don't get paid.

Many "schools" rely on the revenue of the junior students to keep the doors of the dojo open...so, they cater to the kids...fine with me, but don't promote them before they are REALLY ready.

:asian:
chufeng


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## karatekid1975 (May 11, 2003)

In both TKD schools I was in, there is an age limit. You have to be 16 to get a BB. Under that, you get a JR BB. The kids training is modified for safety reasons. If they already have a Jr BB, when they hit 16, they have to re-learn the adult stuff, and test for the real thing.


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## ace (May 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by KenpoDragon _
> *I would like to know everyone's input on this one, do you believe that there should be an age limit for someone to be promoted to a Black Belt??? I just read on another martial arts forum about a 9 year old testing for his Black Belt. Can a 9 year old kid really have the knowledge that a Black Belt should have??? Can a 9 year old kid have the maturity level that a Black Belt should have??? Can a 9 year old kid have the control a Black Belt should have??? Can a 9 year old kid understand the potential for damage of what they are doing??? I personally wouldn't promote anyone under the age of 16. That's just my opinion though, I would very much like to hear everyone elses opinion.:asian:
> 
> With honor and respect,
> KenpoDragon *









I say YES!!! there should be an age limit of at leats 18.
But it it would kill  the BIZZ side to Martial Arts.
                                  _____


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## John Bishop (May 11, 2003)

Kajukenbo policy is no one is promoted to black belt until they are 18.  We feel it is a adult responsibility and honor.


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## KenpoDragon (May 11, 2003)

One of the main reasons I posted this was some of the things I have witnessed in my martial arts lifetime. In my old school there was a Junior BB, he was about 9 or 10, he was not promoted by my instructor,but by my instructor's instructor. My old instructor would always say that he personally would not have promoted the kid. After getting his Junior BB, he started in the adult class. He was half the size of everyone else in the class, everyone was like is this a joke??? A child, even a Junior BB can't go with an adult especially one twice his size and skill level. I remember one time we were doing the ring of fire, it's the clock principal for those of you who don't know,i.e 1 guy at 12, 1 guy at 3, 1 guy at 6, 1 guy at 9, and all the other numbers in between.It's a multiple attacker situation.Anyways there I was dead center and I'm taking out this guy taking out that guy, and then this kid throws a punch at me, so instead of poundinig him into the ground, I took it easy on him and just got him in a wrist lock. He started to cry!!! Unbelievable, a Black Belt crying come on! I know he was only a kid, but honestly stay in the kids class, don't try and be in the adult class. Nobody respected him after that, they just made jokes about him. My point is this, if your not an adult don't pretend to be one. I have also witnessed a 13 year old girl get her Junior BB, I was there for the test sitting on the board. She was the instructors daughter, all I kept thinking was man I feel sorry for you if you ever get into a real fight. Her partner/opponent had to keep acting like what she was doing was working, the reason I say this is I had worked out with her the week before. After the test and she was promoted, I asked her partner/opponent if what she did actually worked, he replied nope I just helped her out a little. I do believe in kids studying the martial arts, but I don't think that they are mature enough to hold the title of Black Belt or Black Sash. Think about all the people who get a major ego after they get their Black Belts. That can get you into some serious trouble.

                                                               Sincerely,
                                                                       KenpoDragon:asian:


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## karatekid1975 (May 11, 2003)

My school has a seperate class for Jr BB's. Just because they get their BB, doesn't make them adults. There is a special Jr Black belt class for them. Yes, they are black belts and they need to work on that level, but they are not adults, so they stay with that class. That's until they turn 16.


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## Kempojujutsu (May 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by karatekid1975 _
> *My school has a seperate class for Jr BB's. Just because they get their BB, doesn't make them adults. There is a special Jr Black belt class for them. Yes, they are black belts and they need to work on that level, but they are not adults, so they stay with that class. That's until they turn 16. *



This how I look at it. The Belt is just a color. The color of the belt doesn't make you a better fighter/ martial artist, or teacher. What makes a difference if they are black or yellow belt. I have seen kids start in the MA get to brown belt say at 13 and then havef to wait for another 5 years for BB. About 95% of the time that 13 year old will quit the MA. To me our youth is the future of the MA. Most of us that teach have more kids than adults students, how will the art grow if everyone quits. Other than money and moving, kids get bored with activities that they can't excell at, and they will move on to something else. I do believe jr BB are not the same as BB. But why shouldn't kids have a JR. BB. I don't teach my kids everything that my adults need to know. My kids BB is about adult green or 1st brown belt. Why 16 or 18? Just seen a artical saying people don't reach adulthood till 26. Why not make people have to become 26 before reaching BB. The reason, martial arts will kill it's self.
Bob




:asian:


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## karatekid1975 (May 11, 2003)

I donno, but that just how my instructor runs the school. He has his reasons why, and I can't tell you why, because I don't know. I may run my future school differently. Who knows.


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## DAC..florida (May 11, 2003)

I also agree that any student under the age of 16 who has met the requirements to be promoted to BB should be considered a jr. BB until they reach the age of 16 and then they will be allowed to test for there BB


:asian:


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## Deaf (May 12, 2003)

This is a very voliatile subject really.  You are going to get the "extreme" old school people response of "Hell NO!"  A kid is a kid but like the one of the previous posts, our children are our future.

If we do hold back then eventually what we know that we do not pass on, will wither and die.

I myself do not not agree with a 9 year old full fledged black belt and have witnessed many of them back in my tang soo do/shotokan days.  However, those kids continued to train in the kids classes, which I do NOT have a problem with.

Jr. Black Belts are a good idea however they should continue to train in their respective age classes.  Once they turn 16 or above then consideration to training in an adult class can be taken and the journey towards full fledged black belt can be taken.  Special care should be taken though to keep the student motiviated and "Keep the dream" alive so that they do not get discouraged.  

A very touchy subject indeed with many opinions and paths that can be considered and taken.  Choose wisely!

~Deaf~


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## Yari (May 12, 2003)

When I grade somebody, either for at belt or a competition, I do it by see how "imperfect" it is. The lower the perfection, the lower belt.

When were up to BB, it's not only the technique it self, but conduct, how the techniques interacte ( which would mean some kind of sparring), and a general understanding of the techniques and social skills.

I havn't seen any kids being able to fulfill these criteria, but if they could, I would have to let them have the black belt. But to be honest, I don't think they ever will.

In the end,  it's not about the black belt, it's about a certain level of understandment, which craves a special mentality and maturaty(sp?).

/Yari


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## MountainSage (May 12, 2003)

Yari, you make a very good and important point. Kenpojujitsu, if a thirteen year old quits because of age requirement then hold the door open and thank them for coming as they leave.  If money makes the decisions then that's not MA, that's business.  MA will survive because there are those special individuals out there that will preservere no matter what the challenge. All schools don't have a jr. program to seperate younger participants.  16 or 18 years old maybe an arbortrary age level, but you have to start somewhere.

Mountain Sage


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## Kirk (May 12, 2003)

A friend of mine studies kendo .. which I know is a sport MA .. but
he went to a huge kendo dojo in Japan, and he said there's 10  yr
old b.b.'s there ... quite a few.


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## MountainSage (May 12, 2003)

This is been a reoccuring statement on this forum since I have been a part, no slam to you kirk.  You can not compare MA in the Asian culture to MA is the US culture.  MA in Asia train in class 3-4 hours 5 days per week, then addition time on their own outside of class.  Thats 15-20 hours + per week, there are few of us that can boast that kind of class time training.  As far as maturity, its expected, no questions asked in the Asian Culture. In the US teen and pre-teens are given a lot of leeway.

Mountain Sage


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## Kirk (May 12, 2003)

I didn't take it as a slam bud, just a good discussion/debate.
In the IKCA curriculum, there is no min. age for a student to start,
correct?  If a student starts at age 6, I don't think it'd take 12
years for him to learn that curriculum (most cases).  So once he
completes the very same curriculum that adults complete for b.b.,
he is awarded a jr black belt.  IMO that means that he can defend
himself well against kids his age/height/weight and probably a
bit more.  Once 18, he can test the same exact test he took at
whatever age, and get awarded his "regular" b.b.

I think 2 belts SHOULD BE awarded ..jr, and normal.  A jr blackbelt
does NOT mean the same as a regular b.b.  It should mean that
he is above the maturity level for his/her age, and can defend
himself against those of slightly older than he.  The ONLY problem
that I really have with this is around age 11 or 12.  Some kids hit
puberty early .. I remember a guy in my 4th grade class .. hit
puberty WELL before the rest of us .. had a bassy voice, and was
humongous compared to the rest of us.  He could have beaten
any one of us down, I'm sure m.a. training or not.  So I think it
should be can expectedly defend himself against someone just
slightly taller/heavier.


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## KennethKu (May 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MountainSage _
> *This is been a reoccuring statement on this forum since I have been a part, no slam to you kirk.  You can not compare MA in the Asian culture to MA is the US culture.  MA in Asia train in class 3-4 hours 5 days per week, then addition time on their own outside of class.  Thats 15-20 hours + per week, there are few of us that can boast that kind of class time training.  As far as maturity, its expected, no questions asked in the Asian Culture. In the US teen and pre-teens are given a lot of leeway.
> 
> Mountain Sage *



I would say that is a misperception.

I doubt today's Asian teens give that much of a rat *** about martial art anymore. The hottest and trendiest cow chips are what they are interested in. You tend to hear about their parents complaining about "kids today!" There is this common misperception that all Asians know martial art, which cannot be  farther from the truth.   Granted, you can cite the Thai kids who learn Muay Thai at 9. But they are the exceptions.

On the other hand, in some part of America, ie in rural and farm communities, kids are by far MORE mature and responsible than their compatriots. You are expected to pull your own weight at an early age.


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## Kempojujutsu (May 12, 2003)

When I was 12, I started working in my parents resturant. Before I was 16, I would open the resturant up on Saturdays, so my dad could have mornings off. That included getting food prepared, turning on ovens etc. It seems that most of today's youth, don't have that responsabilty. I know have two daughters 16 and 13. The 13 year old will do chores for money the other that's a different story.

Bob:asian:


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## Kirk (May 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by KennethKu _
> *I would say that is a misperception.
> 
> I doubt today's Asian teens give that much of a rat *** about martial art anymore. The hottest and trendiest cow chips are what they are interested in. *



I've never lived in Japan, but I *heard* that they have 
mandatory sports after school and on saturdays, and that they
can choose m.a. as that sport.  Any truth to this?


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## Ender (May 12, 2003)

Just my two cents....

when my son was on the verge of becoming a BlackBelt, our teacher wanted to make sure he represented him and his art correctly. My son was 15 at the time. Our teacher also wanted to measure him against other brown and black belts. So we went to other schools to train, exchange information and to spar. If he handled himself and others with respect and honor, then he had a chance to promote. the final test was if he could fight as a black belt. well, at first he was tentative, but after a while he sparred men, women, blackbelts and brown, of various styles. and he won...alot. he even beat some 3rd degree blackbelts. so our teacher decided he was ready to be a black belt, even tho he never promoted anyone under 18 before.


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## SRyuFighter (May 12, 2003)

As a youth of today I must say I agree with some of what is being said. I think the age limit should be 15 and that is only if that person fully meets all requirements. Being a black belt does not automatically make one a great fighter. I mean heck I made a 2nd degree cry not long ago (see thread in Karate forum: Am I wrong here)  and I was only a white belt (in that style....had other M.A. training). I don't agree with the whole junior rank thing. I think that you should have a childrens class though. Children should learn the same material as adults. And should practice together. Then if they earn a black belt once they reach age 15 and up they could join the adult class. Basically if the individual is mature enough, can meet the requirements, and is strong enough of a fighter then they should get what they have earned. I don't think that someone could really do this until at least 15.


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## KennethKu (May 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *I've never lived in Japan, but I heard that they have
> mandatory sports after school and on saturdays, and that they
> can choose m.a. as that sport.  Any truth to this? *



Mandatory physical education is common in Asian schools.  However, they don't necessary include martial arts as part of the curriculum.  My friends from Taiwan, HK, Malaysia, Thailand, Indonesia, Singapore don't know cow pie about martial art besides the stuffs in the movie. They couldn't care less and  don't give much respect to martial artists in general. My Korean friends told me that just about every Korean male knows TKD. And that is b/c they are taught in the military and Koreans are drafted.

As regarding Japanese schools, you need to ask someone else about that.


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## Kempojujutsu (May 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by SRyuFighter _
> * I don't agree with the whole junior rank thing. I think that you should have a childrens class though. Children should learn the same material as adults. And should practice together.  *




The reason I don't teach kids and adults in the same class or the same material. I teach some what of a combative style. We don't do alot of tournments. Things I don't teach kids are alot of wrist and arm locks, chocks, and throws. They do a few wrist and finger locks and about 12 throws. Don't show the finger jab to the eyes. Now that I am getting into the pressure point stuff, I only show kids stuff on the hands and some on the arms. Nothing on the chest or head. Not all Martial arts are the same. Some should not teach kids the same material they show adults.
Bob  :asian:


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## MountainSage (May 12, 2003)

KennethKu, My reference the the maturity in the asia culture was not a reference to MA, but the culture in general.  I wish your statement about rural communties was true, but they are getting as bad as the cities.  I live by a town of 200 and the largest town in the county is under 2000 people and we have many of the same problem and tribulations as in the cities, just on a smaller scale.

Mountian Sage


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## A.R.K. (May 17, 2003)

I am going to say age 18.

:asian:


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## MartialArtist (May 17, 2003)

Most kids don't even know what a black belt means when they're 15, nonetheless the ripe old age of 8.

Physical and mental development, along with experience play a huge role in the MA.  I remember when I was 7, I really couldn't hit very hard.  Reason was I didn't have the best technique, mainly due to my lack of physical and mental development.  When I hit 13, I broke my first concrete slab while at seven, couldn't punch through anything...

Oh yeah, after I broke a concrete slab with my palm strike and side kick @ 13, I thought I was the greatest and I tried to do what the professionals did, which was run up this one slope (usually during the winter) and knife hand trees.  You weren't trying to snap the tree, just an exercises they did.  I did it and all I said was :soapbox: 

My maturity those days  Hell, I'm not even THAT mature today.  Anyway, if I taught me when I was in my youth, I wouldn't feel comfortable of promoting myself to any high rank until age 21.


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## MartialArtist (May 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MountainSage _
> *This is been a reoccuring statement on this forum since I have been a part, no slam to you kirk.  You can not compare MA in the Asian culture to MA is the US culture.  MA in Asia train in class 3-4 hours 5 days per week, then addition time on their own outside of class.  Thats 15-20 hours + per week, there are few of us that can boast that kind of class time training.  As far as maturity, its expected, no questions asked in the Asian Culture. In the US teen and pre-teens are given a lot of leeway.
> 
> Mountain Sage *


Used to be until a decade ago.

Now, most (not all) kids in Asia (mainly in industrialized areas such as South Korea or Japan) all have cell phones, play high-tech video games, etc.  Corporal punishment is fading, and everything is becomming more liberal.


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## MartialArtist (May 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *I've never lived in Japan, but I heard that they have
> mandatory sports after school and on saturdays, and that they
> can choose m.a. as that sport.  Any truth to this? *


Girls usually choose volleyball while guys usually like baseball.

Almost everyone in South Korea knows TKD and a bit of wrestling (be it freestyle, ssirum) or yudo...  But comparable to that of a McDojang person.  Most kids really aren't much, it's the adults to look after, as most the McDojangists just seperate themselves while the dedicated stay.  High school students in the city don't have time for a lot of TKD students.  They have school, then they have "extra" school @ their high school which can amount to 8 hours of total schooling total.  The "extra" school isn't really required by law, but everyone does it or they'll get left behind.  College students in South Korea are the type of college people you see in the US...  Ambitious, eager, protesting everything and trying to save the world.


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## Dan Anderson (May 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by KenpoDragon _
> *I would like to know everyone's input on this one, do you believe that there should be an age limit for someone to be promoted to a Black Belt???
> 
> With honor and respect,
> KenpoDragon *



Although I came in late on this thread, I do have some thoughts on it.  I do promote kids to Junior Black Belt.  I have not promoted anyone less than 12 years old to this rank.  The two key requirements to this rank are 1) they have to have the same technical proficiency as the adults testing and 2) they must have the fighting mentality that if they are abducted/accosted by another adult, "The bomb goes off."

I have seen too many 7&8 year old black belots do the board breaking thing on Johnny Carson or David Letterman that I know any high school senior could pick up and throw into a dumpster without nay problem.  For me, this is not right.  If I promote anyone to a Junior Black Belt and they become accosted or assaulted in any way by an adult, they are taking a piece of the attacker with them.  If they go down, they're going down fighting.  That is the prime attribute any Junior Black Belt needs to have in my school.

A 9 year old?  Sorry, no go.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## MountainSage (May 20, 2003)

Hello Dan, nice to hear from a fellow Oregonian.  A couple folks on this thread have made a common statement about BB and being fighters.  We need to define what a BB is ment to be.  It is easy to train people to fight/self-defense; teach a skill and repeat many, many times.  To be a MA is a different thing, a way of self-control and improvement.  A gentleman on another forum used this example:  you may be the best cheerleader in the world, but the doesn't make youo good in ballet.  There are many simliar movements, but the intent is different. If all your going to do is be a fighter then train a year or two and be a fighter, why would a person spend years just to be a fighter.  there are maturity factor that a 12 year old BB doesn't have and few teenages and twenty something will have.  Heck, I know one or two 30+ year old BB that don't have the maturity.  I apologize, the concept is difficult to explain.  it is like the difference between throwing a punch and placing a punch, it doesn't seem like must difference, but there is a world of difference.

Mountain Sage


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## tonbo (May 20, 2003)

I had this big, long-winded answer to post up here on age limits for Black.  

I'm not gonna bore anyone with the details.

Let's just say that yes, I would set an age limit of at least 16 for a full Black.  Below that, but NO lower than say, 13, a student could earn a junior Black.

8-year-old Black belts?  Um......NO.

Peace--


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## TKDman (May 20, 2003)

Sadly, if the price is right im sure a kid could find a black belt from someone.


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## Nightingale (May 20, 2003)

always remember there are exceptions to every rule...

in EPAK, there's Ms. Diserae Phillips.  This girl is 15, 2nd black, and absolutely amazing.  There's no doubt in anyone's mind who meets her that she understands the responsibility of a black belt, and can definitely hold her own on the mat.


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## c2kenpo (May 24, 2003)

> Can a 9 year old kid really have the knowledge that a Black Belt should have??? Can a 9 year old kid have the maturity level that a Black Belt should have??? Can a 9 year old kid have the control a Black Belt should have??? Can a 9 year old kid understand the potential for damage of what they are doing???
> With honor and respect,
> KenpoDragon
> 
> ...


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## clapping_tiger (May 26, 2003)

To make it short. I think it should be 12 (minimum)or 13 for a Junior Black Belt. And 16 for Black, but a re-test of their skills is a must if they are moving up from Junior Black.


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## tonbo (May 27, 2003)

Nightingale, I would agree.  There are always exceptions.  I know of a couple as well, but I would still say I generally would discourage someone pushing on to get a child to advanced rank (or to BB).  In most cases, for a variety of reasons, it just doesn't work.

I love that quote about asking how long someone's been training, rather than what belt they have.  You are very right, c2kenpo....seems like the belt is less of an indication of skill than how long they've been at it.  Then again, you would also need to know how *often* they trained, over that period.....

"How long have you been training?"  "Oh, about 40 years.  Once a year"

Heh.  A bit extreme, but as always, I could see something similar happening.

Ah, well.

Peace--


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## capuchin (Apr 3, 2018)

KenpoDragon said:


> I would like to know everyone's input on this one, do you believe that there should be an age limit for someone to be promoted to a Black Belt??? I just read on another martial arts forum about a 9 year old testing for his Black Belt. Can a 9 year old kid really have the knowledge that a Black Belt should have??? Can a 9 year old kid have the maturity level that a Black Belt should have??? Can a 9 year old kid have the control a Black Belt should have??? Can a 9 year old kid understand the potential for damage of what they are doing??? I personally wouldn't promote anyone under the age of 16. That's just my opinion though, I would very much like to hear everyone elses opinion.:asian:
> 
> With honor and respect,
> KenpoDragon


My son is 6 years old and just received his first black belt in TKD


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## mrt2 (Apr 3, 2018)

I am not a big believer in little kid Martial Arts.  And yet, my new Dojang has a lot of them.  Clearly, there is more money in little kid classes than in adult training.  And of the adults there, a significant chunk of them started because their kids were already enrolled. So I look at it this way.  I am there for my own reasons, but he kids are clearly what is keeping the doors open at a lot of dojangs. 

And as others have said, you can slow down the curriculum, but if you take 7 or 8 year olds, some of them will be black belts by age 11 or 12.  And if you want them to stay, you cannot just stop them at brown belt and expect them to stick around for 5 or 6 years.  It is a conundrum.


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## Buka (Apr 4, 2018)

capuchin said:


> My son is 6 years old and just received his first black belt in TKD



Welcome to Martialtalk, Capuchin.


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## Headhunter (Apr 4, 2018)

capuchin said:


> My son is 6 years old and just received his first black belt in TKD


Sorry completely against that. A 6 year old is no way mentally or physically strong enough to even be considered a black belt. In my opinion that's totally wrong


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## pdg (Apr 4, 2018)

capuchin said:


> My son is 6 years old and just received his first black belt in TKD


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## Headhunter (Apr 4, 2018)

pdg said:


> View attachment 21372


Not obvious at all there's loads of stories of 6 year old black belts


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## JR 137 (Apr 4, 2018)

I empathize with both sides of the argument.  Being a grades 4-9 science teacher, I’ve had quite a few students who are “black belts.”  Whenever I hear it, I cringe and my inner voice says “no you’re not.”  Then I think who am I to judge?  I’ve never seen them on the dojo floor nor in an actual physical confrontation.  I think of plenty adults that aren’t really worthy of the pedestal of sorts that I sometimes put the rank on.  But I still always come back to “no you’re not.”

I’m all for kids staying motivated in the MA, regardless of the style.  If earning that rank is going to keep them motivated, then it’s not all bad.  If that was going to keep my kids in karate, then I’d be ok with it.  But at the same time, I’d be telling myself that they’re not really black belts and disliking the whole concept of it.

The organization I’m in has junior black belts.  Looking at the syllabus, they’re initially most comparable to an adult 4th kyu with one or two 3rd kyu things.  I think the junior black belt age requirement is around 12 years old.  I don’t think it would be possible to earn it younger than that due to time in grade and syllabus if they started at the minimum age of 6 for junior students.

Junior black belts have levels in our organization.  They first get a plain black belt with the white stripe through the length of it.  As they bridge the gap in the syllabus, the belt gets more and more embroidery.  After some material, they’ll get the school’s kanji on one side.  After more, they’ll get their name embroidered on the other side.  Then they’ll get a dan stripe embroidered.  To the best of my knowledge, they’re formally tested for these “promotions” if that’s the right word, but they’re not charged. Most kids don’t get all the way through this because they usually turn 16 and test for adult shodan beforehand.  I think it’s a great way to keep the kids learning and not put them into some sort of holding pattern between junior black belt and adult black belt.

But no matter what way it’s done, I’m not a fan of junior black belt.  When I start my own organization and make the rules, which will never happen, kids will wear a gray belt instead.  Same material and requirements, different color so there’s no confusion about what you are and aren’t.

Until I’m the head honcho and everyone else’s rank is my business, I’ll  continue to train and only worry about my own rank.  Quite frankly, I don’t worry about my own rank very much either.


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## skribs (Apr 4, 2018)

Does a black belt mean a fighter or a martial artist?

A black belt, to me, means someone has the discipline and dedication to learn and understand the material to receive their black belt.  At my school some people get their black belt in 2 1/2 years and some get it in 7 years, but everyone who gets a black belt has shown understanding of the curriculum for each test, and improvement in skills over time.

Systems where rank is determined solely by ability are more like sports brackets than martial arts ranks to me.


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## CB Jones (Apr 4, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> I empathize with both sides of the argument. Being a grades 4-9 science teacher, I’ve had quite a few students who are “black belts.” Whenever I hear it, I cringe and my inner voice says “no you’re not.” Then I think who am I to judge? I’ve never seen them on the dojo floor nor in an actual physical confrontation. I think of plenty adults that aren’t really worthy of the pedestal of sorts that I sometimes put the rank on. But I still always come back to “no you’re not.”
> 
> I’m all for kids staying motivated in the MA, regardless of the style. If earning that rank is going to keep them motivated, then it’s not all bad. If that was going to keep my kids in karate, then I’d be ok with it. But at the same time, I’d be telling myself that they’re not really black belts and disliking the whole concept of it.



I disagree.

So while many kids might not have the focus or dedication needed to get to a black belt level as a youth...I do think a small number do.  And its is wrong to arbitrarily discount or dismiss that achievement.


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## pdg (Apr 4, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> I disagree.
> 
> So while many kids might not have the focus or dedication needed to get to a black belt level as a youth...I do think a small number do.  And its is wrong to arbitrarily discount or dismiss that achievement.



This is where the argument crosses with the upper age limit thread.

Age can sometimes be an indication, or it can be irrelevant - as long as there are exceptions to the rule then (in this type of case) the rule shouldn't really exist.

If an 8 year old can demonstrate compliance to a pass level with the requirements laid down, why should they be excluded based solely on age? (Replace 8 with 83 if you like)

This also rolls back around to the "what does a black belt mean" argument, and the view that some styles/people asign a BB pinacle status, while others view it as a starting point...


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 4, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> I disagree.
> 
> So while many kids might not have the focus or dedication needed to get to a black belt level as a youth...I do think a small number do.  And its is wrong to arbitrarily discount or dismiss that achievement.


I think that depends how you define "black belt level". If that means they are able to meet the technical requirements and hold their own in free sparring against folks about their own physical makeup, then some kids can definitely do that. If it means being able to hold their own against an average adult, almost no kids can do that - and likely none at age 6.


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## CB Jones (Apr 4, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I think that depends how you define "black belt level". If that means they are able to meet the technical requirements and hold their own in free sparring against folks about their own physical makeup, then some kids can definitely do that. If it means being able to hold their own against an average adult, almost no kids can do that - and likely none at age 6.



Can they not hold their own against the average adult due to the lack of technique or the difference in size and strength?  

Is a black belt a representation of ability to utilize martial art techniques and concepts or a representation of strength and size while utilizing martial arts techniques and concepts?


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## Steve (Apr 4, 2018)

Black belt is arbitrary.  It doesn’t have any intrinsic value.   I have no problem with a 6year old black belt, as long as the standards are objective, and the child meets the standard.  

It should be clear to everyone, particularly the parents, what that black belt means, with regards to actual, practical ability.


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## CB Jones (Apr 4, 2018)

Steve said:


> Black belt is arbitrary.  It doesn’t have any intrinsic value.   I have no problem with a 6year old black belt, as long as the standards are objective, and the child meets the standard.
> 
> It should be clear to everyone, particularly the parents, what that black belt means, with regards to actual, practical ability.



I agree 100%

At my son's school and org. black belt are awarded to youth but they have to test with the adults and do the exact same test as the adults with the same standards.  Age is not taken into account in assessing the testers ability.  Only difference is that during the sparring portion the youth fight other youth near their age.  They are still required to fight a series of continuous sparring matches until the judges are satisfied that the standard of fighting has been met in each fight.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 5, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> Can they not hold their own against the average adult due to the lack of technique or the difference in size and strength?


Size and strength. 


> Is a black belt a representation of ability to utilize martial art techniques and concepts or a representation of strength and size while utilizing martial arts techniques and concepts?


That, Detective, is the right question (sort of). 

To me, the question Jan whether a given rank is for skill in the art (I think that’s your first option, nearly), or for ability to use at an objective point. For that point to be objective, it needs a floor. If a kid’s BB is to be the same rank as an adult’s (and assuming we intend that second choice), then it must meet the same objective point. I wouldn’t give an adult their BB for being able to handle attacks by kids. So, is it appropriate to do so with kids?

My reply is that it’s appropriate in at least three cases. 1: if the rank is for technical ability in the art. 2: if the rank is for ability to handle someone about your own size and physicality (which opens a can of worms). 3: if there’s a difference in the kid’s rank (youth BB =/= adult B.B.).


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## JR 137 (Apr 5, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> I agree 100%
> 
> At my son's school and org. black belt are awarded to youth but they have to test with the adults and do the exact same test as the adults with the same standards.  Age is not taken into account in assessing the testers ability.  Only difference is that during the sparring portion the youth fight other youth near their age.  They are still required to fight a series of continuous sparring matches until the judges are satisfied that the standard of fighting has been met in each fight.


About 2 minutes in sums it all up 





Yeah, I know... not EXACTLY the same thing.


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## Buka (Apr 5, 2018)

I have practice written a dozen different posts in the last twenty minutes, offering my opinion on children black belts. But with each, I realized they would inflame, anger or hurt the feelings of people. I have no desire to do that. Too bad, one of them was a real corker. 

I have to constantly remind myself to listen to what I teach. I've always preached to my students that the only constant in life is change. And the Martial Arts world continues to change as well.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 5, 2018)

Buka said:


> I have practice written a dozen different posts in the last twenty minutes, offering my opinion on children black belts. But with each, I realized they would inflame, anger or hurt the feelings of people. I have no desire to do that. Too bad, one of them was a real corker.
> 
> I have to constantly remind myself to listen to what I teach. I've always preached to my students that the only constant in life is change. And the Martial Arts world continues to change as well.


I have the same problem, to a lesser extent. My first reaction is, “No. Just no.” But that’s just from my perspective, and reflects my own view of what a B.B. means. I don’t know that my view in this is any more valid than others I read. Heck, from a purely technical standpoint, even I don’t really have an issue with it. But I still have that gut reaction.


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## Buka (Apr 5, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I have the same problem, to a lesser extent. My first reaction is, “No. Just no.” But that’s just from my perspective, and reflects my own view of what a B.B. means. I don’t know that my view in this is any more valid than others I read. Heck, from a purely technical standpoint, even I don’t really have an issue with it. But I still have that gut reaction.



Maybe you and I could team up and fight eight and ten year old Black Belts in some form of sparring*.
*
You'll take the ten year old, right?*
*


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## shihansmurf (Apr 5, 2018)

15 year thread necro. Sweet.

I don't promote students to black belt prior to age 16.


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## Steve (Apr 5, 2018)

Buka said:


> Maybe you and I could team up and fight eight and ten year old Black Belts in some form of sparring*.
> *
> You'll take the ten year old, right?


That's how you pad your win column, Buka.  I'm proud to know you, you crazy bastard.


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## mrt2 (Apr 5, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> About 2 minutes in sums it all up
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There is an even  funnier scene where Kramer is actually sparring children.


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## Buka (Apr 5, 2018)

Steve said:


> That's how you pad your win column, Buka.  I'm proud to know you, you crazy bastard.



I am a padding fool. 

I'll bet I've lost more fights, sparring matches, competitions - and in more different weight divisions of competitions, than most people have watched. But if Gary is willing to take on that ten year old I figure to raise my average a bit. Or not.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 5, 2018)

Buka said:


> Maybe you and I could team up and fight eight and ten year old Black Belts in some form of sparring*.
> *
> You'll take the ten year old, right?


You have a deal, brother. I’ll buy the beer and chocolate milk afterwards.


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