# Avoid or invite confrontation?



## StudentCarl (Dec 16, 2010)

This came up in another thread, and poses a question separate from KKW vs. sport:

"In fact, the last time I got into a physical altercation, I was at a bar watching Monday Night Football. I was wearing business attire and I was sitting next to some local guy who was taller, bigger and younger than me wearing a lumberjack shirt, ripped jeans, and a baseball cap. Every time I would say something he would say some crap to put me down. After the first quarter, I told him that I was leaving now, but if he wanted to he could wait outside for me while I used the bathroom. When I left, he was waiting for me outside..."

Where do YOU see the line on when it is/is not appropriate to use violence?

Carl


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## dancingalone (Dec 16, 2010)

Good question.  I struggle mentally with the line myself.

Illustration:  I'm at a college football game with my wife and son.  A drunken fan of the opposing team throws an ice cold drink at my wife and pushes me into my 4 year old son.  Aside from any legal repercussions, is this sufficient provocation to rearrange the drunk's face?


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## clfsean (Dec 16, 2010)

Avoid if possible & seek LEO to control is (to me) always choice #1.

If there's way #1 will happen, then finish before it starts with you on the downside of things.


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## Tez3 (Dec 16, 2010)

StudentCarl said:


> This came up in another thread, and poses a question separate from KKW vs. sport:
> 
> "In fact, the last time I got into a physical altercation, I was at a bar watching Monday Night Football. I was wearing business attire and I was sitting next to some local guy who was taller, bigger and younger than me wearing a lumberjack shirt, ripped jeans, and a baseball cap. Every time I would say something he would say some crap to put me down. After the first quarter, I told him that I was leaving now, but if he wanted to he could wait outside for me while I used the bathroom. When I left, he was waiting for me outside..."
> 
> ...


 
It's not appropriate to use violence when you aren't sure you can win the fight. One should only take on people like this if you are sure you can beat them. 

Always check for CCTV and potential witnesses if you are sure there are none that will bother you, rearrange his face while shouting 'don't hit me' and 'please don't hurt me', fools the witnesses into thinking he's attacking you. Make sure you put him in the recovery position.

This advice only partly tongue in cheek.


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## terryl965 (Dec 16, 2010)

Avoid at all possible, wish I was smart enough to know this thirty years ago.

Dancingalone the only way anybody can get under my skin and common sense leaves my mind if anybody soes anything to my wife or child, there is not enough Leo's around to stop me from hurting the person.


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## TKD_Father (Dec 16, 2010)

The Master at my son's school tells this story.

A man without martial arts training walks down a sidewalk and is jumped by three thugs.

Another man with martial arts training walks down a sidewalk, sees three thugs, approaches and fights with them.

A true martial artist (the Master uses the term "Black Belt") walks down a sidewalk, sees three thugs, and crosses the street, then keeps walking.


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## Tez3 (Dec 16, 2010)

TKD_Father said:


> The Master at my son's school tells this story.
> 
> A man without martial arts training walks down a sidewalk and is jumped by three thugs.
> 
> ...


 

A good story and good advice but sometimes it is right to fight.


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## andyjeffries (Dec 16, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Illustration:  I'm at a college football game with my wife and son.  A drunken fan of the opposing team throws an ice cold drink at my wife and pushes me into my 4 year old son.  Aside from any legal repercussions, is this sufficient provocation to rearrange the drunk's face?



I would say it depends on the push.  If it's a bit of jostling because you're at a game and there's a lot of bodies in a small area then it's unfortunate.  If there's space that the guy could have avoided pushing you, I'd say act (particularly because if he can get away with pushing you he might try to escalate and you have your wife and child with you).

Under UK law, he battered you first (physical contact) and you were acting in self-defence of yourself and your family.  However, you have to stop when the threat is over, you can't jump on him and keep pounding him while he's out cold.

YMMV depending on where you live.


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## leadleg (Dec 16, 2010)

If you look at it from a legal and moral standpoint and then act on that, you can manipulate the legal side but you will have to live with the moral


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## Tez3 (Dec 16, 2010)

Avoiding confrontation should be the aim but one should also be prepared to defend yourself and those you love, then only the thought of keeping them safe should be in your mind. Worry about the legalities later when your loved ones are safe and sound, there should be no moral dilemma in doing the right thing. Use reasonable force which includes deadly force if appropriate (all the UK laws allow that, I doubt it's much different else where) and no more.
If you can all walk away without a fight because you've taken all the precautions you can that's ideal but circumstances aren't always ideal so being prepared to do what you have to is wise. Hope for the best but expect the worst.


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## dancingalone (Dec 16, 2010)

andyjeffries said:


> I would say it depends on the push.  If it's a bit of jostling because you're at a game and there's a lot of bodies in a small area then it's unfortunate.  If there's space that the guy could have avoided pushing you, I'd say act (particularly because if he can get away with pushing you he might try to escalate and you have your wife and child with you).
> 
> Under UK law, he battered you first (physical contact) and you were acting in self-defence of yourself and your family.  However, you have to stop when the threat is over, you can't jump on him and keep pounding him while he's out cold.
> 
> YMMV depending on where you live.



When I say push, I don't mean an unintentional bump.  It's a hostile action, perhaps not as dire as swinging for your head, but it's definitely an attack.

But let's take the scenario another step further.  Is the push and drinking throwing sufficient to justify fighting, even if the drunk takes no further aggression?  In other words has the fight already started in your mind once he placed his hands on you?


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## leadleg (Dec 16, 2010)

Not legally,once he is not a threat,you cannot attack. I have read many of your posts, I believe if you really thought you were in danger this guy might still be recovering.It sound like you have I shoulda kicked his @ remorse


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## oaktree (Dec 16, 2010)

StudentCarl said:


> This came up in another thread, and poses a question separate from KKW vs. sport:
> 
> "In fact, the last time I got into a physical altercation, I was at a bar watching Monday Night Football. I was wearing business attire and I was sitting next to some local guy who was taller, bigger and younger than me wearing a lumberjack shirt, ripped jeans, and a baseball cap. Every time I would say something he would say some crap to put me down. After the first quarter, I told him that I was leaving now, *but if he wanted to he could wait outside for me while I used the bathroom.* When I left, he was waiting for me outside..."
> 
> ...


So what if he says something that puts you down. Learn to brush it off and enjoy the game. Why did you have to say "If you wanted you can wait outside for me" 
Then his ego is hurt then feels challanged and now wants to fight and waits outside for you that's rubbish.

Was your ego hurt that made you say this comment and want to prove him wrong?

What would it solve you hurt him he hurts you or both in jail or worse?

I am all for self protection but fighting over some harsh words in my opinion is foolish.


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## Manny (Dec 16, 2010)

If I am sitting in a bar and some guy next to me starts to molest me, I just change of place and enjoy the game, if this guys follows me and sticks molest me then I pay the drinks and go away.

IF this guy then touches me or use force to molest me then..... I  break his nose period.

Something hapened me in a crow rodeo once, I was heading to the rodeo with my girl who was wearing very tight jeans, and in some point I saw he was a little unconfortable, I asked her what happened and she told me nothing, however she was very upset and asked again, what happened and she told me some guy spank me in the ......s, I went nuts!!! and told her Who did it? who did it? In a peaceful manner she told... Don't know it's so crowd here!! C'mon tell me who did it? and she asnwer againg, What for? does it really matter? Are you gona fight because this? What if the guy has a gun or a knife or he's coming with a bunch of pals?

Latter I understand her, it really did not matter the spank, the most important for her was to ignore it to avoid a fight, now this girl is my wife.

Manny


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 16, 2010)

StudentCarl said:


> This came up in another thread, and poses a question separate from KKW vs. sport:
> 
> "In fact, the last time I got into a physical altercation, I was at a bar watching Monday Night Football. I was wearing business attire and I was sitting next to some local guy who was taller, bigger and younger than me wearing a lumberjack shirt, ripped jeans, and a baseball cap. Every time I would say something he would say some crap to put me down. After the first quarter, I told him that I was leaving now, but if he wanted to he could wait outside for me while I used the bathroom. When I left, he was waiting for me outside..."
> 
> ...


You were most likely in the wrong; so, what happened then?
Sean


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## bluewaveschool (Dec 16, 2010)

Touch Of Death said:


> You were most likely in the wrong; so, what happened then?
> Sean



Poster in question says he met the guy outside and broke the guy's nose.  And StudentCarl isn't the person this happened to.


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## StudentCarl (Dec 16, 2010)

It wasn't me. I copied it from the KKW vs. Sport thread. I think instigating a fight is asking for all kinds of trouble, even if you wipe the floor with the guy. All it takes is a decent lawyer pointing out that you are an experienced martial artist, school owner, are called "master", have a tournament fighting record, etc. to help buy Joe-Bob a whole new set of teeth, bad coverage for you in the newspapers, and more. And that's not to mention that it completely undercuts what we teach about self-control. Where's your credibility as a teacher after that?

Carl


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## andyjeffries (Dec 16, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> When I say push, I don't mean an unintentional bump.  It's a hostile action, perhaps not as dire as swinging for your head, but it's definitely an attack.
> 
> But let's take the scenario another step further.  Is the push and drinking throwing sufficient to justify fighting, even if the drunk takes no further aggression?  In other words has the fight already started in your mind once he placed his hands on you?



There shouldn't be that much gap between the push and your defence ;-)

The fight has kinda started when he put his hands on you, at that point there shouldn't be enough of a gap for him to "take no further aggression" unless he's unable to do so.


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## Archtkd (Dec 16, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Good question. I struggle mentally with the line myself.
> 
> Illustration: I'm at a college football game with my wife and son. A drunken fan of the opposing team throws an ice cold drink at my wife and pushes me into my 4 year old son. Aside from any legal repercussions, is this sufficient provocation to rearrange the drunk's face?


 
"Throw at," , "pushes me". That sounds like an attack, but I think I'd walk away -- albeit very, very reluctantly -- to shield my wife and son from further potential violence. The rearrangment would immediately occur if the football hooligan followed me.


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## Nomad (Dec 16, 2010)

If I had sufficient awareness to see the push coming, I'd make sure he paid a price during the push itself, but likely wouldn't escalate the conflict.  As for throwing a drink on my wife... well, then it'd be me holding her back from hurting him, not the other way around.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 16, 2010)

StudentCarl said:


> This came up in another thread, and poses a question separate from KKW vs. sport:
> 
> "In fact, the last time I got into a physical altercation, I was at a bar watching Monday Night Football. I was wearing business attire and I was sitting next to some local guy who was taller, bigger and younger than me wearing a lumberjack shirt, ripped jeans, and a baseball cap. Every time I would say something he would say some crap to put me down. After the first quarter, I told him that I was leaving now, but if he wanted to he could wait outside for me while I used the bathroom. When I left, he was waiting for me outside..."
> 
> ...


I did not comment directly on this in the other thread aside from that I was glad that it worked out for the poster.  

As a general rule, inviting someone to 'step outside' is foolish.  It tells me that the person doing the asking has something to prove.

Now, we don't know precisely _what_ was being said.  Who was the poster saying things to?  Was he talking to a friend, engaging the offending patrok in conversation about the game, or just cheering for his team?  

Was the offending patron making threats of bodilly harm?  Or just being a general obnoxious drunk at a bar?  

I don't really like dealing with obnoxious drunks (who does?) so I generally watch my television at home.  A football game isn't worth the potential risks involved in an altercation with an unknown entity.  Not having been there, I am not going to be too quick to judge the poster, as sometimes events like this take on a life of their own.  

Daniel


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## jthomas1600 (Dec 16, 2010)

studentcarl and dancingalone posed scenarios that (at least in my mind) are drastically different. In the scenario studentcarl put forward he was insulted and then basically challenged the guy to a fight over it. I would think just walking away in that situation is the right thing to do. The right response to the scenario dancingalone put forward is probably also to walk away, but I'm not sure how many of us fathers and husbands would have done so. I certainly would not hold it against anyone for pounding the fool in that situation. I probably would have.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 16, 2010)

Touch Of Death said:


> You were most likely in the wrong; so, what happened then?
> Sean


Here's the whole narative.  


puunui said:


> In fact, the last time I got into a physical altercation, I was at a bar watching Monday Night Football. I was wearing business attire and I was sitting next to some local guy who was taller, bigger and younger than me wearing a lumberjack shirt, ripped jeans, and a baseball cap. Every time I would say something he would say some crap to put me down. After the first quarter, I told him that I was leaving now, but if he wanted to he could wait outside for me while I used the bathroom.
> 
> When I left, he was waiting for me outside and tried his best to punch me in the face, I just did long off the line roundhouse to his leg or long padduh chagi to his leg. He kept coming and I just kept kicking his leg to the point where he was in tears. Finally I felt like enough was enough and so I faked to his leg, which drew both his hands down, and he lifted up his front leg, and I came over the top with a punch to his nose. But at the last minute, I pulled the punch and didn't follow through. He stood there with his broken bent nose, tears in his eyes, and yelled out "you broke my nose!". One drop of blood came out of one nostril, followed a few seconds later with a gush of blood all over his shirt. At this point, the security guard came, and asked me if he should call the police, to which I responded, "no need, I think our discussion is over."


 
Daniel


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## Tez3 (Dec 16, 2010)

A bit off blaming StudentCarl for another actions, all he did was ask people's opinions on whether 'inviting' someone outside was a good idea or not!!

Thanks Daniel for posting up the original and sorting who posted it, now you can blame the person responsible instead of someone asking a genuine question which had lead to a good discussion until the blaming started.


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## Archtkd (Dec 16, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Here's the whole narative.
> 
> 
> Daniel


 
Inviting confrontation is one thing. Defending oneself against confrontation is another thing, from a moral, legal, social and so many other ways. Sorry for the strong language, but I think it's borderline juvenile for an adult to do the "lets step outside routine," following an exchange of nasty words. Step outside to what? Glory? Bravey? Redemption? Regret? I've seen unneccessary death in that kind of invitation.


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## puunui (Dec 16, 2010)

oaktree said:


> Why did you have to say "If you wanted you can wait outside for me" Then his ego is hurt then feels challanged and now wants to fight and waits outside for you that's rubbish.



I felt like it at the time. 




oaktree said:


> Was your ego hurt that made you say this comment and want to prove him wrong?



It wasn't about ego. It was about him bothering me. 




oaktree said:


> What would it solve you hurt him he hurts you or both in jail or worse?



I hurt him, he didn't come close to hurting me, ad no one went to jail mainly because I didn't want him to go to jail. What I wanted was for him to stop bothering me  and to understand that if he ever did that again, to someone else, then he might be taken down a road that he would like to be down. He basically was harassing me because I was wearing business attire and didn't look like a threat to him, since he was bigger, taller, heavier, younger and all of the things that in his mind gave him an advantage physically over me. And it did work by the way because his brother, who worked there, later told me that he liked to harass people and that he, the brother, was glad that I did what I did, but didn't take it that far, because his brother needed to be taught that lesson. And after that, the brother told me he never bothered anyone ever again because if I could do that to him, then maybe there are others that can do the same thing only much less mercifully. I saw that guy once a few years later at a bookstore and he told me "hi" in a pleasant uneasy way. I just looked at him, gave him the hawaiian hello (jut my chin out at him with a smile) and that was it. 




oaktree said:


> I am all for self protection but fighting over some harsh words in my opinion is foolish.



ok.


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## Tez3 (Dec 16, 2010)

It's quite a common thing for people to step outside and have 'words'. If both sides are willing, able and no others join in I think it's probably no one elses business if they chose to settle differences like this. We don't have to approve but consensual fights aren't really a problem.


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 16, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> It's quite a common thing for people to step outside and have 'words'. If both sides are willing, able and no others join in I think it's probably no one elses business if they chose to settle differences like this. We don't have to approve but consensual fights aren't really a problem.


It's all fun and games until someone loses and eye! Then it's just hillarious.
Sean


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## StudentCarl (Dec 16, 2010)

Interesting discussion despite the need for clarification. I left Puunui's name off because I wanted a discussion of the issue and didn't want it to be about him personally. I figured that those interested could dig up the thread, and I thought my wording was clear that I reporting something I read and not my own experience.

There is a self-defense forum, but I think there's value in discussing how the values, teachings, and skills of our art fit with real confrontations...in this case the decision of if and when it's appropriate to instigate a fight.


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## searcher (Dec 16, 2010)

I use violence when there is "risk of death or permanent bodily harm," as stated in the State of Kansas personal defense guidelines.    This is a touchy situation for those with a CCH, as here in Kansas, it is considered an armed conflict even if you do not draw your carry gun.      So, for me to take it up a notch, it had better be pretty serious.     Or I had better not be carrying.


I struggle with it on a daily basis and find it to be a razor sharp line that I am walking.      Even more so, since this summer I will be working as a reserve deputy for the local SD.     Hopefully, "pain compliance" will deter anyone from making it more than it needs to be.     I try to stay away from areas where I will get myself in an altercation, with teh exception of the internet.


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## puunui (Dec 16, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> As a general rule, inviting someone to 'step outside' is foolish.  It tells me that the person doing the asking has something to prove.




Well, that's just one more disagreement you have with the pioneers, including Hapkido GM JI Han Jae by the way. He has no problems with this sort of thing, as long as we don't injure anyone permanently. That is basically what this discussion is for me, comparing how MT members attitudes are similar and/or different from the practitioners that created the martial arts that we study.


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## Balrog (Dec 16, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Good question.  I struggle mentally with the line myself.
> 
> Illustration:  I'm at a college football game with my wife and son.  A drunken fan of the opposing team throws an ice cold drink at my wife and pushes me into my 4 year old son.  Aside from any legal repercussions, is this sufficient provocation to rearrange the drunk's face?


That would probably be considered excessive.  However, wrapping him up in an armbar and holding him face down on the ground wouldn't, especially after you and your wife both file assault charges on him.


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## puunui (Dec 16, 2010)

StudentCarl said:


> Where's your credibility as a teacher after that? Carl




How about when a student asks a teacher "How do you know that this will work in a self defense situation? Have you had to defend yourself before?" and the teacher answers "No, I've never had to defend myself. I've never even competed in a poomsae division at a tournament. That's why I say to walk away at all costs. All of this is unproven theory for me, but I ask that you put your life in my hands and trust that this spinning elbow one step sparring technique together with this non-kukkiwon dan certificate will save your life one day. Make sure you keep your hands up at all times." 

Where's the credibility of the teacher after that?


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## Balrog (Dec 16, 2010)

Rather than answer individual posts, I'm simply going to say that there are two statements that cover self-defense.

"As peaceably as possible, as forcibly as necessary."

"Perceive the way of nature and no force of man can harm you. Do not meet a wave head on: avoid it. You do not have to stop force: it is easier to redirect it. Learn more ways to preserve rather than destroy. Avoid rather than check. Check rather than hurt. Hurt rather than maim. Maim rather than kill. For all life is precious nor can any be replaced." _- Master Kan_


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 16, 2010)

puunui said:


> Well, that's just one more disagreement you have with the pioneers, including Hapkido GM JI Han Jae by the way. He has no problems with this sort of thing, as long as we don't injure anyone permanently. That is basically what this discussion is for me, comparing how MT members attitudes are similar and/or different from the practitioners that created the martial arts that we study.


The creators did not have to deal with the laws of any given state in the the U.S.; the authorities are whom we have to deal with after its all said and done, not GM Ji Han Jae.
Sean


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## StudentCarl (Dec 16, 2010)

puunui said:


> How about when a student asks a teacher "How do you know that this will work in a self defense situation? Have you had to defend yourself before?" and the teacher answers "No, I've never had to defend myself. I've never even competed in a poomsae division at a tournament. That's why I say to walk away at all costs. All of this is unproven theory for me, but I ask that you put your life in my hands and trust that this spinning elbow one step sparring technique together with this non-kukkiwon dan certificate will save your life one day. Make sure you keep your hands up at all times."
> 
> Where's the credibility of the teacher after that?


 
Guess my reference wasn't clear enough: I was suggesting that you'd lose credibility to teach self-control. I also suggest that consensual fighting and self-defense are not the same thing.

Back to the topic:
Puunui...since you've given a situation showing when you would start a fight, what sort of situation would you avoid a confrontation instead of escalating it?


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 16, 2010)

puunui said:


> How about when a student asks a teacher "How do you know that this will work in a self defense situation? Have you had to defend yourself before?" and the teacher answers "No, I've never had to defend myself. I've never even competed in a poomsae division at a tournament. That's why I say to walk away at all costs. All of this is unproven theory for me, but I ask that you put your life in my hands and trust that this spinning elbow one step sparring technique together with this non-kukkiwon dan certificate will save your life one day. Make sure you keep your hands up at all times."
> 
> Where's the credibility of the teacher after that?


While I don't personaly have this problem with my teacher, I don't think street fighting has anything to do with teaching.
Sean


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## David43515 (Dec 16, 2010)

puunui said:


> It wasn't about ego. It was about him bothering me.


 
Sorry, but considering the situation I don`t see any difference. The guy said some things you didn`t like and you offered him a fight for it. People that smoke "bother" me. I change seats.

You say you GM doesn`t mind "as long as we don`t injure them permanatly". Do you have ESP or something that allows you to know how badly you`ll hurt the guy?(In all your training you`ve NEVER seen ANYONE get hit too hard by accident? Wow. ) For that matter did you know he wasn`t packing a gun? Or that his brother and couple friends wouldn`t be joining him to dance on your head?

I was young once and liked to put loudmouthes in thier place too. And I felt fine sticking up for weaker people involving myself  in matters that didn`t concern me. I know where you`re coming from. I figured that if the guy is brave enought to talk the talk he should be able to walk the walk and if he gets his nose shoved in .....well that`s the price of being a jerk sometimes. But I`m older now with a wife and kids. And I know that if I get hurt in a fight I could`ve avoided I may not be able to work and take care of my family. Ditto if I hurt that guy and wind up going to jail or getting sued into bankrupcy. The vast majority of a-holes you meet just aren`t worth it. There`s a saying where I come from. "There are old bikers and bold bikers, but there ain`t no old bold bikers."


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 16, 2010)

David43515 said:


> Sorry, but considering the situation I don`t see any difference. The guy said some things you didn`t like and you offered him a fight for it. People that smoke "bother" me. I change seats.
> 
> You say you GM doesn`t mind "as long as we don`t injure them permanatly". Do you have ESP or something that allows you to know how badly you`ll hurt the guy?(In all your training you`ve NEVER seen ANYONE get hit too hard by accident? Wow. ) For that matter did you know he wasn`t packing a gun? Or that his brother and couple friends wouldn`t be joining him to dance on your head?
> 
> I was young once and liked to put loudmouthes in thier place too. And I felt fine sticking up for weaker people involving myself in matters that didn`t concern me. I know where you`re coming from. I figured that if the guy is brave enought to talk the talk he should be able to walk the walk and if he gets his nose shoved in .....well that`s the price of being a jerk sometimes. But I`m older now with a wife and kids. And I know that if I get hurt in a fight I could`ve avoided I may not be able to work and take care of my family. Ditto if I hurt that guy and wind up going to jail or getting sued into bankrupcy. The vast majority of a-holes you meet just aren`t worth it. There`s a saying where I come from. "There are old bikers and bold bikers, but there ain`t no old bold bikers."


I pitty the student that is impressed by the fact that their teacher is out picking fights in a bar. 
Sean


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## puunui (Dec 16, 2010)

StudentCarl said:


> what sort of situation would you avoid a confrontation instead of escalating it?




That incident was a long time ago, almost 12 years ago. Different time and space. Today, I don't find myself in any fighting situations. It simply doesn't come up in my daily life. I'm sure that the pioneers also don't find themselves in too many physically confrontational situations either. But that doesn't mean that they avoided confrontations at all costs. If they did, Taekwondo would not have developed in the way that it did. Sensei Mas Oyama wrote about the student who shies away from confrontation, that he may impress some with his modesty, but in the end will end up getting surpassed by those who are not so "humble". I'll try and get out the exact quote later.


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## puunui (Dec 16, 2010)

StudentCarl said:


> Guess my reference wasn't clear enough: I was suggesting that you'd lose credibility to teach self-control.



I guess it depends on what you consider self control. That guy's brother for example, thanked me for exhibiting self control for obviously not doing way more damage. He looked at me like I could have literally killed his brother if I wanted to. No permanent injuries, but he learned a valuable lesson and never bothered anyone ever again, according to his brother. But hey, if you don't approve, then ok. I don't live for your approval, so it's ok with me too.


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## puunui (Dec 16, 2010)

David43515 said:


> You say you GM doesn`t mind "as long as we don`t injure them permanatly". Do you have ESP or something that allows you to know how badly you`ll hurt the guy?(In all your training you`ve NEVER seen ANYONE get hit too hard by accident? Wow. ) For that matter did you know he wasn`t packing a gun? Or that his brother and couple friends wouldn`t be joining him to dance on your head?




I don't or didn't need ESP since he wasn't hurt permanently. I've heard of people getting hit too hard, one of my friends actually kicked someone in the chest and killed him. As for him packing a gun, he wasn't. As for a couple of friends joining in, no one did. But hey, if you don't like it, that's cool. No problem. Look down upon me all you want.


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## puunui (Dec 16, 2010)

Touch Of Death said:


> I pitty the student that is impressed by the fact that their teacher is out picking fights in a bar. Sean




I pity the student learning "self defense" and "traditional martial ARTS" from someone with little or no self defense experience.


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## puunui (Dec 16, 2010)

Touch Of Death said:


> The creators did not have to deal with the laws of any given state in the the U.S.; the authorities are whom we have to deal with after its all said and done, not GM Ji Han Jae. Sean



The security guard who watched the whole thing came up to me afterwards and asked me if he should call the police.


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## bluewaveschool (Dec 16, 2010)

So you believe that because I don't have a KKW Dan cert that I am not qualified to teach TKD?  That because I've never been in the situation that I have to fight that I'm not qualified?  So anyone with the ITF or ATA or ITA isn't qualified?  Because that pretty much sounds like what you are saying.

My instructors were never in fights, yet I had no problem believing in what they taught me.

A dan cert is a piece of paper.  As pointed out in other threads, those papers are for sale.  At the course with MR. AWESOME everyone passed before they even took the test.  The cert means nothing.  The instructor means everything.


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## bluewaveschool (Dec 16, 2010)

Also, can you provide in written form, audio or video, any of the pioneers giving their feelings on fighting?


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## ralphmcpherson (Dec 16, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Good question.  I struggle mentally with the line myself.
> 
> Illustration:  I'm at a college football game with my wife and son.  A drunken fan of the opposing team throws an ice cold drink at my wife and pushes me into my 4 year old son.  Aside from any legal repercussions, is this sufficient provocation to rearrange the drunk's face?


If you are able to move and sit elsewhere then thats what I would do. I remember a mate and I were having some beers on the beach at a training camp shortly after we got our black belts. We were walking along with a mate (non martial artist) and noticed a couple of loudmouthed thugs standing a bit further up the beach taunting anyone who walked past. Me and my mate just intsantly walked up off the beach and onto the footpath so we could go around them without actually going anywhere near them. Our mate who was a non martial artist could not understand why we would bother to go that far out of our way to avoid any confrontation if we had a black belt. Generally, Ive found people who can fight are more prepared not to fight than those who cant. Maybe because they dont feel they have anything to prove.


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 17, 2010)

puunui said:


> The security guard who watched the whole thing came up to me afterwards and asked me if he should call the police.


I'll bet you said no.
sean


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## puunui (Dec 17, 2010)

bluewaveschool said:


> Also, can you provide in written form, audio or video, any of the pioneers giving their feelings on fighting?



Actually I could, but for what? You think I'm lying to you?


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## Tez3 (Dec 17, 2010)

Touch Of Death said:


> It's all fun and games until someone loses and eye! Then it's just hillarious.
> Sean


 

I never said it was fun, I said it wasn't our business if two people decide they want to go outside and sort their differences out, it _is_ quite a common thing. Why would we get involved, we aren't their nannies or big brother. If they get injured after they've decided to have a brawl that's their tough luck. Getting involved would be equally silly, for all you know the pair of them could turn on you. Leave them to it.

There is an interesting point to discuss _without making it about personalities_ as to whether a person who has never had a fight or had to defend themselves can teach people how to defend themselves. It is an interesting point. It can be discussed sensibly with the premise that we will walk away if we can but if we have to fight for ourselves or loved ones will will.


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## StudentCarl (Dec 17, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> There is an interesting point to discuss _without making it about personalities_ as to whether a person who has never had a fight or had to defend themselves can teach people how to defend themselves. It is an interesting point. It can be discussed sensibly with the premise that we will walk away if we can but if we have to fight for ourselves or loved ones will will.


 
For me it comes down to ability and will. Training skills can lead to the ability, depending on quality of the practice. Perhaps the question is whether you can develop the will and composure to defend yourself in any other way than doing it. The answer is clearly yes, otherwise we wouldn't bother training our soldiers and law enforcement personnel. 

However, I think not all students have the nature to learn it equally easily, as was discussed somewhat in the thread about gentle and meek students.


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## terryl965 (Dec 17, 2010)

Never surrender, never backdown, always confront anybody with extreme violence. This way you can never look like a sissy.


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## Tez3 (Dec 17, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> Never surrender, never backdown, always confront anybody with extreme violence. This way you can never look like a sissy.


 
Violence is the answer to everything! Well until you meet the person who's a better fighter than you anyway


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## terryl965 (Dec 17, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> Violence is the answer to everything! Well until you meet the person who's a better fighter than you anyway


 
Tez there is no-one beeter than me, I am the bomb. I am like crazy mad and could never be beaten by any mere mortal. I am like SUPERMAN without the cape or BATMAN without the utility belt. I turn into the HULK and can with stand any confrintation, like I said I am the BOMB......
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Sorry after reading some of this stuff in here, this is the impressionI get.


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## Tez3 (Dec 17, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> Tez there is no-one beeter than me, I am the bomb. I am like crazy mad and could never be beaten by any mere mortal. I am like SUPERMAN without the cape or BATMAN without the utility belt. I turn into the HULK and can with stand any confrintation, like I said I am the BOMB......
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
LOL, it's something I have to deal with a lot of the time, it's like a David Attenborough wildlfe programme. Young males posturing and looking for reasons to fight, hopefully impressing the young females who are often egging them on, into going back to 'their place' for a leg over. Add alcohol into the situation and the scene is set.

One of the reason we like MMA is that it takes these young males and trains them hard, puts them in a competitve situation while teaching self discipline and sportsmanship. It gives all those hormones something to work on and like the young tribesmen sent out to kill a lion to prove their manhood, it marks a rite of passage for them so they can settle down and beome good members of society. Nine times out of then it works, we've had parents thank us and say how much nicer their sons have become, far less combatitive though they still don't tidy their bedrooms lol!


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## Tanaka (Dec 17, 2010)

I have no issues with what puunui did. Sounds like the guy was a bully. And Bullies are one of the biggest things I hate in this world. Admittedly what he did wouldn't of been enough for me to challenge him. I probably would of just said something very sarcastically rude, and whatever he decided to from there would dictate the future.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 17, 2010)

Archtkd said:


> Step outside to what? Glory? Bravey? Redemption? Regret? I've seen unneccessary death in that kind of invitation.


The vanload of swimsuit models that just pulled up asking for directions?

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 17, 2010)

Tanaka said:


> I have no issues with what puunui did. Sounds like the guy was a bully. And Bullies are one of the biggest things I hate in this world. Admittedly what he did wouldn't of been enough for me to challenge him. I probably would of just said something very sarcastically rude, and whatever he decided to from there would dictate the future.


I agree with you.

Sometimes, people just feel the need to step on that last nerve.  In Puunui's defense, I don't think I'd consider his actions to be provoking a fight.  The man in question was apparently aggressive and provokative.  Consider also that the man didn't really have to step outside.  Puunui went to the gents and then left the building.  The man in question could have simply stayed inside and enjoyed his drink.  He could have then gone home with his nose entact and secure in his belief that he was a tough guy.  

Also, I'm sure that the other patrons were glad when the confrontation migrated out of doors as well.

Daniel


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## Tez3 (Dec 17, 2010)

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/...RT-IT-ALL-OUT-WITH-A-GOOD-FIGHT-201012103340/

:lol:

Perhaps we should have a new thread on who, if you were a violent start a fight type of person you would actually want to punch!


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## puunui (Dec 17, 2010)

Ok, how about this incident: I had just bought the largest slurpee at 711, but that made me late for my haircut appointment. I drove on, but then when I was at a stop light, I realized I was in the right turn only lane and if I turned right, I would have been even more late. So when the light turned green, I sped up and drove fast so I didn't have to turn right. I apparently cut off a taxi driver when I did that, because he got really irate, started trying to run my beautiful Lexus off the road with his rusted out bucket of bolts, rolled down his window and was swearing at me all the way down the street. At the next light, as he was calling me every swear word that he could think of, I rolled down my window and whipped my slurpee at his windshield. By luck I guess, the slurpee hit his windshield in such a way that almost the entire windshield was covered, blocking his view so much that he had to turn his windshield wipers on so he could see. I didn't say a word and just looked at him. After that, his attitude completely changed, he rolled up his window and when the light turned green, he turned off the street the first chance he got. I made it to my haircut appointment slightly late, minus my slurpee which I like to drink while I am getting my hair cut. 

That night, one of my female black belts asked me if I had gotten into an altercation with a taxi driver. She said that she was riding in the car directly behind the taxi and saw the whole thing. She said that was an awesome throw of the slurpee. I jokingly told her that was an improvisation off of hapkido rock throwing technique, and after that everyone wanted to learn how to throw rocks.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 17, 2010)

puunui said:


> Ok, how about this incident: I had just bought the largest slurpee at 711, but that made me late for my haircut appointment. I drove on, but then when I was at a stop light, I realized I was in the right turn only lane and if I turned right, I would have been even more late. So when the light turned green, I sped up and drove fast so I didn't have to turn right. I apparently cut off a taxi driver when I did that, because he got really irate, started trying to run my beautiful Lexus off the road with his rusted out bucket of bolts, rolled down his window and was swearing at me all the way down the street. At the next light, as he was calling me every swear word that he could think of, I rolled down my window and whipped my slurpee at his windshield. By luck I guess, the slurpee hit his windshield in such a way that almost the entire windshield was covered, blocking his view so much that he had to turn his windshield wipers on so he could see. I didn't say a word and just looked at him. After that, his attitude completely changed, he rolled up his window and when the light turned green, he turned off the street the first chance he got. I made it to my haircut appointment slightly late, minus my slurpee which I like to drink while I am getting my hair cut.
> 
> That night, one of my female black belts asked me if I had gotten into an altercation with a taxi driver. She said that she was riding in the car directly behind the taxi and saw the whole thing. She said that was an awesome throw of the slurpee. I jokingly told her that was an improvisation off of hapkido rock throwing technique, and after that everyone wanted to learn how to throw rocks.


So I must ask, as his window was down; did were you aiming for the windshield or did you miss him on purpose?

Daniel


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## leadleg (Dec 17, 2010)

puunui said:


> Ok, how about this incident: I had just bought the largest slurpee at 711, but that made me late for my haircut appointment. I drove on, but then when I was at a stop light, I realized I was in the right turn only lane and if I turned right, I would have been even more late. So when the light turned green, I sped up and drove fast so I didn't have to turn right. I apparently cut off a taxi driver when I did that, because he got really irate, started trying to run my beautiful Lexus off the road with his rusted out bucket of bolts, rolled down his window and was swearing at me all the way down the street. At the next light, as he was calling me every swear word that he could think of, I rolled down my window and whipped my slurpee at his windshield. By luck I guess, the slurpee hit his windshield in such a way that almost the entire windshield was covered, blocking his view so much that he had to turn his windshield wipers on so he could see. I didn't say a word and just looked at him. After that, his attitude completely changed, he rolled up his window and when the light turned green, he turned off the street the first chance he got. I made it to my haircut appointment slightly late, minus my slurpee which I like to drink while I am getting my hair cut.
> 
> That night, one of my female black belts asked me if I had gotten into an altercation with a taxi driver. She said that she was riding in the car directly behind the taxi and saw the whole thing. She said that was an awesome throw of the slurpee. I jokingly told her that was an improvisation off of hapkido rock throwing technique, and after that everyone wanted to learn how to throw rocks.


 I need more information on this before I can make a judgement,What kind of slurpee,and what size,and was this near Waikiki or outside of town.


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## Tez3 (Dec 17, 2010)

What on earth is a slurpee?


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## puunui (Dec 17, 2010)

leadleg said:


> I need more information on this before I can make a judgement,What kind of slurpee,and what size,and was this near Waikiki or outside of town.



Coke, the largest size in the clear plastic cup, and it was on the road going up to Ala Moana Center. We were traveling makai (south) on Keeaumoku, and the right turn lane was at the intersection of King and Keeaumoku, right near the Chevron gas station. 

Also for the other person asking what a slurpee is, it is a frozen drink, like an icee, if you know what that is, except not as light.


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 17, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> What on earth is a slurpee?


Kind of a liquidy snow cone, in a cup. 
Sean


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 17, 2010)

The Slurpee, a trademarked frozen drink sold by 7/11 convenience stores.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 17, 2010)

puunui said:


> Coke, the largest size in the clear plastic cup, and it was on the road going up to Ala Moana Center. We were traveling makai (south) on Keeaumoku, and the right turn lane was at the intersection of King and Keeaumoku, right near the Chevron gas station.
> 
> Also for the other person asking what a slurpee is, it is a frozen drink, like an icee, if you know what that is, except not as light.


He's lucky it wasn't an extra large coffee in his lap, lol.

Daniel


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## Tez3 (Dec 17, 2010)

I've heard of 'roid rage but was this a sugar rush then?

BTW it looks disgusting!


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 17, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> I've heard of 'roid rage but was this a sugar rush then?
> 
> BTW it looks disgusting!


But it tastes great!

Daniel


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## bluewaveschool (Dec 17, 2010)

puunui said:


> Actually I could, but for what? You think I'm lying to you?



When someone offers as fact something that is opposite what you have been taught to be true, do you ask for a source of their knowledge, take it at face value as true, or ignore it completely?  We are names (not even our real ones) on an internet message board.  It's kind of hard to choose the second option in this instance, as we don't actually know each other.  However, I am willing to choose the first option over the third.


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## puunui (Dec 17, 2010)

bluewaveschool said:


> When someone offers as fact something that is opposite what you have been taught to be true, do you ask for a source of their knowledge, take it at face value as true, or ignore it completely?  We are names (not even our real ones) on an internet message board.  It's kind of hard to choose the second option in this instance, as we don't actually know each other.  However, I am willing to choose the first option over the third.



I gave you names and specific examples already.


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## bluewaveschool (Dec 17, 2010)

You gave stories.  I am looking for writings or interviews, something more concrete than 'A guy on the internet said this'.  Sorry if that offends you, but as I said, we are just names on a board.


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## puunui (Dec 17, 2010)

Here's one more example, Sensei Mas Oyama:at

*

My own victories in karate have been a determining factor in spreading the fame of this most outstanding martial art all over the globe. I have an unbroken record of wins against boxers, wrestlers, judo men, Thai boxers, and even raging bulls. . . .

Years ago, in the United States, I wounded a white American wrestler and was chased about at riflepoint because of the white superiority complex and anti-Japanese feelings of this man and his companions. . . . 

Experience is another good reason for struggling and fighting. In my younger years, in the United States and other parts of the world, I took part in many display matches that, if different from the struggle of life, were nonetheless dangerous. My aim in doing this was to introduce the oriental martial arts to as many people as possible. I was entirely serious, but after all these matches did not entail the desperate need for justice that would ahve been required had I been fighting wicked people out to take my life. On the other hand, though these matches were by and large only comparisons of skills and strength, I could have been gravely injured or even killed in them. . . . 

Although law forbids dangerous combat, a man cannot know the true gravity of the martial arts until he has experienced it. What I am saying is not applicable to ordinary people, but men of the martial arts who have not fought in this way cannot be said to have put their martial arts to the uses for which they are intended.

I fully realize that what I am saying runs counter to the common sense of ordinary people living a peaceful life, but the martial arts are fundamentally military. They  strive for peace, but do so by means of martial might and techniques. . . . This means that ordinary people as well as devotees of the martial arts ought to learn combat techniques. To ths end, instructors are needed; and these instructors must have actual combat experience, which they must share with their students. Obtaining this experience involves the danger of injury and even deformity, but there are things that cannot be mastered on the basis of theories alone. To earn the name of a man of the martial arts, a person must encounter and overcome true danger. . . . 

I am probably the only postwar Japanese karate leader to have undergone actually dangerous combat  and, as a result, have been criticized by them so called peaceful karate men. But how can men like these, no more than instructors in a kind of karate dance, instruct their students in combat techniques and spirit when they have never gone through combat? 

*

Like I said, your argument is not with me, it's with the pioneers, which in this case is Kyokushin Kai's OYAMA Masutatsu Sensei.


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## puunui (Dec 17, 2010)

bluewaveschool said:


> You gave stories.  I am looking for writings or interviews, something more concrete than 'A guy on the internet said this'.  Sorry if that offends you, but as I said, we are just names on a board.




It doesn't offend me, but I don't see the difference between me posting here my actual experiences with the pioneers were, and reading an interview or writing  from a book, especially since I am seeing what I write on the internet showing up in books and magazine articles, not to mention webpages. If someone publishes a hearsay account of what I wrote, does that somehow make it more legitimate to you? 

But I did post something that was written by Oyama Sensei in his book "The Kyokushin Way" published in 1979. There is also stories from Funakoshi Sensei in his autobiographical book Karate My Way of Life where he tells a story about him fighting with someone who tries to take his umbrella and also where I believe Matsumura Sensei, his teacher's teacher, doesn't walk away at all costs but instead accepts a challenge. 

There are also stories out there of Aikido Founder Ueshiba Sensei doing all sorts of stuff, as well as his teacher TAKEDA Sokaku Sensei. Other people have already mentioned in posts that Motobu Sensei and Kyan Sensei would do things as well. 

There are others, but if I give you all the answers, then it robs you of the opportunity to discover these things for yourself.


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## puunui (Dec 17, 2010)

Forgot to mention the Gracie family and their open challenge. I used to take GJJ from Relson Gracie when he first moved here, and he used to tell stories of fighting all the time. He and his family definitely weren't "walk away at all cost" types. They went for it, because if they didn't, GJJ wouldn't be what it is. 

Where do the Gracies fit into your concept of right and wrong? Would they get kicked out of your instructor's class too?


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## dowan50 (Dec 17, 2010)

puunui said:


> Here's one more example, Sensei Mas Oyama:at
> 
> *
> 
> ...


 
Would you care to enlighten us with how he died???


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## puunui (Dec 17, 2010)

dowan50 said:


> Would you care to enlighten us with how he died???




I don't know how he died. But according to wikipedia, 

"Oyama died at the age of 70, on April 26, 1994, of lung cancer. He was a non-smoker."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mas_Oyama


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## bluewaveschool (Dec 17, 2010)

See, now you have directed me towards books that I can read in the person own words, something I can put my hands on.  This is what I was looking for.  Hopefully I can apply that towards finding something about an actual TKD pioneer and not Karate and Akido guys.

Someone of the mindset of going out and getting into a lot of fights to prove TKD would get tossed, no doubt.


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## puunui (Dec 17, 2010)

bluewaveschool said:


> This is what I was looking for.  Hopefully I can apply that towards finding something about an actual TKD pioneer and not Karate and Akido guys.



There aren't too many autobiographical books written by Taekwondo pioneers about that sort of thing. I think General Choi might be one of the few, and I can't remember exactly but I believe he might have spoken about some altercations that he was involved in when he was younger. But I have a hard time believing what he writes, since it is so slanted and filled with misinformation and his viewpoint so contrary to what the other pioneers say. 

One example off the top of my head that I remember was his comment about GM LEE Won Kuk being a communist because when North Korea invaded South Korea, supposedly GM Lee was seen standing on the roof of the Chung Do Kwan waving a red banner. The fact of the matter is that GM Lee had already left South Korea for Japan prior to the North Korean invasion, and that if what General Choi said was true, that someone was standing on the roof of the Chung Do Kwan waving a red flag, it probably was GM YOO Woong Jun, who GM Lee appointed to replace him as Kwan Jang right before he left. But GM Yoo ended up voluntarily moving to North Korea, and the position of Kwan Jang then went to GM SON Duk Sung, who was the next senior. 




bluewaveschool said:


> Someone of the mindset of going out and getting into a lot of fights to prove TKD would get tossed, no doubt.



I don't understand what you are trying to say here. But the idea of the "just walk away" comes from Japanese martial arts, specifically from Japanese sword arts. After the Tokugawa shogunate came into power, there was peace in the country for approximately 300 years. At the same time, samurai still were around, carrying swords. The country couldn't have samurai killing each other out in the streets, so out came the idea that we are a peaceful nation and we need to keep our swords in our scabbards.


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## ralphmcpherson (Dec 17, 2010)

For me personally, I dont really care what the "pioneers" said about whether fighting is right or wrong. They lived in a very different world to what we do. In my opinion, these days it is just stupid to have the notion that you should go and get in fights to prove what you know works or that you should fight when its just not necessary. With all the legal stuff these days and people carrying disclosed weapons and the fact that all the guys mates will come and jump in it is just not viable to go and get in fights. I went to school with a mate who could fight well and would never back down to a challenge. I saw him get in countless fights and never even came close to losing one. I am good mates with him to this day and an injury sustained to his wrist in one of his fights has affected his life day in day out. He cant play many sports, it effects his employment (he is a tradesman) and it has just never healed properly and is worsening as he ages, he has even given up playing guitar which he was very passionate about. He regularly questions now if he really did win those fights because in the long run he has an injury that will affect the rest of his life when he could have just walked away. As for testing if what I know works, I train with guys who use the stuff for a living (leo's, bouncers etc) and are getting in fights on a day to day basis and when I talk to them they assure me it works and works well, so Im not about to go out and get in fights just to prove that what I train works. I havent been in a fight in over 16 years and will most probably never get in a fight again in my lifetime.


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## Tanaka (Dec 17, 2010)

ralphmcpherson said:


> For me personally, I dont really care what the "pioneers" said about whether fighting is right or wrong. They lived in a very different world to what we do. In my opinion, these days it is just stupid to have the notion that you should go and get in fights to prove what you know works or that you should fight when its just not necessary. With all the legal stuff these days and people carrying disclosed weapons and the fact that all the guys mates will come and jump in it is just not viable to go and get in fights. I went to school with a mate who could fight well and would never back down to a challenge. I saw him get in countless fights and never even came close to losing one. I am good mates with him to this day and an injury sustained to his wrist in one of his fights has affected his life day in day out. He cant play many sports, it effects his employment (he is a tradesman) and it has just never healed properly and is worsening as he ages, he has even given up playing guitar which he was very passionate about. He regularly questions now if he really did win those fights because in the long run he has an injury that will affect the rest of his life when he could have just walked away. As for testing if what I know works, I train with guys who use the stuff for a living (leo's, bouncers etc) and are getting in fights on a day to day basis and when I talk to them they assure me it works and works well, so Im not about to go out and get in fights just to prove that what I train works. I havent been in a fight in over 16 years and will most probably never get in a fight again in my lifetime.


I don't think one should get in a fight to prove something either.
But I'm all for someone who is deserving of punishment. Which in this case... I think puunui found someone who was deserving of punishment.

To me it's not really the actions they made or what they said. To me it shines of what kind of evil person they are. If they're capable of putting someone down for no reason without feeling bad. They are a Bully and obviously do not care what they do to people.


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## puunui (Dec 17, 2010)

ralphmcpherson said:


> For me personally, I dont really care what the "pioneers" said about whether fighting is right or wrong.



I'm sure you don't care about how the pioneers felt, about a lot of things. That is one of the points that I am trying to make. 




ralphmcpherson said:


> They lived in a very different world to what we do.



Do they? 



ralphmcpherson said:


> In my opinion, these days it is just stupid to have the notion that you should go and get in fights to prove what you know works or that you should fight when its just not necessary.



If you say so. 



ralphmcpherson said:


> With all the legal stuff these days and people carrying disclosed weapons and the fact that all the guys mates will come and jump in it is just not viable to go and get in fights.



ok.



ralphmcpherson said:


> I went to school with a mate who could fight well and would never back down to a challenge. I saw him get in countless fights and never even came close to losing one. I am good mates with him to this day and an injury sustained to his wrist in one of his fights has affected his life day in day out. He cant play many sports, it effects his employment (he is a tradesman) and it has just never healed properly and is worsening as he ages, he has even given up playing guitar which he was very passionate about. He regularly questions now if he really did win those fights because in the long run he has an injury that will affect the rest of his life when he could have just walked away.



Sorry for him. I don't have those kinds of injuries. I take care of my joints. 




ralphmcpherson said:


> As for testing if what I know works, I train with guys who use the stuff for a living (leo's, bouncers etc) and are getting in fights on a day to day basis and when I talk to them they assure me it works and works well, so Im not about to go out and get in fights just to prove that what I train works.



It might work for them, but that doesn't mean it will work for you.




ralphmcpherson said:


> I havent been in a fight in over 16 years and will most probably never get in a fight again in my lifetime.



Good for you. You probably will never be an instructor with your own school either right?


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## ralphmcpherson (Dec 17, 2010)

puunui said:


> I'm sure you don't care about how the pioneers felt, about a lot of things. That is one of the points that I am trying to make.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I already do some assistant instructing and have a view to full time instructing when I get my 3rd dan. I wouldnt have my own school because my current school has about 30-40 full time instructors and 4000 students so I will be happy to continue within the club Im currently at as it offers me everything I could possibly need so I wouldnt bother starting my own. I will be closing down my business though, and will be instructing full time sometime within the next 4 years.


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## seasoned (Dec 17, 2010)

StudentCarl said:


> This came up in another thread, and poses a question separate from KKW vs. sport:
> 
> "In fact, the last time I got into a physical altercation, I was at a bar watching Monday Night Football. I was wearing business attire and I was sitting next to some local guy who was taller, bigger and younger than me wearing a lumberjack shirt, ripped jeans, and a baseball cap. Every time I would say something he would say some crap to put me down. After the first quarter, I told him that I was leaving now, but if he wanted to he could wait outside for me while I used the bathroom. When I left, he was waiting for me outside..."
> 
> ...


Some people go through life feeling that everyone is out to get them, and will use martial arts or any other weapon at their disposal, to strike out. There are way to many opportunities everyday to invite confrontation, if you so desire. I feel that avoidance not only is the right choice, but should be practiced everyday. Years ago when I asked my sensei when was the proper time to use self defense he said, when they lay hands on you. As children, the old adage was " sticks and stones will break my bones but words will never hurt me". Now, many years later, as the sensei, I teach, live your life righteously, look for ways everyday to help others, as much as you can. Be a good person, a good employee, treat everyone the way you want to be treated, including your neighbors. Once you carry this mind set with you everyday, when trouble comes your way, you will be in a much better position to address the situation at hand, and if so, your training will take over. We will always interact with people everyday for the good or bad, and someone has to take the high ground, let it be you. After all is said and done, and if need be, you will do what needs to be done, at it's proper time..............


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## bluewaveschool (Dec 18, 2010)

Seasoned, as a LEO, how do you look at the bar example?


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## leadleg (Dec 18, 2010)

In my life only two times were the police called for fighting, both times niether of us filed complaints. I admitted to throwing the first punch both times,but they said it was mutual combat and that was that. 
I would add that in both those cases the other guy had been totally obnoxious in public and all the witnesses were on my side.
 I have never been one to pick a fight but I will not stand by while injustice is being done, I have a nose that bends in two different directions from that attitude
And I have probably been only about 70 percent successful


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 18, 2010)

puunui said:


> I'm sure you don't care about how the pioneers felt, about a lot of things. That is one of the points that I am trying to make.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Oh no you di'nt.:ultracool


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## Bruno@MT (Dec 18, 2010)

I think that anyone who fights or invites a fight when it is not _NEEDED_ is an idiot.
Note that I talk about uncontrolled fights, like in a bar or on the street. Controlled fights like MMA, sparring, etc are controlled, and you know the limits up front.

The gracie challenges for example fit in the latter category. They challenged teacher to unarmed fights in an environment where they did not need to worry about a friend kicking their head off when they were trying to choke someone, nor did they have to worry about knives, guns, or other things. And they knew that either way, noone would kill them if their system failed.


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## Tez3 (Dec 18, 2010)

puunui said:


> Forgot to mention the Gracie family and their open challenge. I used to take GJJ from Relson Gracie when he first moved here, and he used to tell stories of fighting all the time. He and his family definitely weren't "walk away at all cost" types. They went for it, because if they didn't, GJJ wouldn't be what it is.
> 
> Where do the Gracies fit into your concept of right and wrong? Would they get kicked out of your instructor's class too?


 

GJJ, typo or another martial art?


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## puunui (Dec 18, 2010)

How do you feel about fighting with a horse? Here is a story from General Choi's autobiography:

*
As punishment for my stubbornness, they assigned me to the most untrained and wild horse, called Hujida. Nevertheless, after I secretly trained the horse with my fists and kicks inside the base stable, it became docile within several days as it is known that horses are intelligent animals.... 

As I usually did, I approached Hujida with a carrot in hand. Without any resistance, it took the carrot and I took its bridle. One the way to the stable, Hujida suddenly kicked me in my ribs and I was directly brought to the base hospital on a stretcher. I never expected this to happen, but it happened....

Horses are intelligent animals, to the extent that Hujida could its revenge for my hitting and kicking. All the while it was fooling me, making me relaxed by pretending it was obedient to me.

*


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## Tez3 (Dec 18, 2010)

puunui said:


> How do you feel about fighting with a horse? Here is a story from General Choi's autobiography:
> 
> *
> As punishment for my stubbornness, they assigned me to the most untrained and wild horse, called Hujida. Nevertheless, after I secretly trained the horse with my fists and kicks inside the base stable, it became docile within several days as it is known that horses are intelligent animals....
> ...


 
Well there's a man I'd really like to shoot! what a wicked and disgusting thing to do to a horse, what a shame he wasn't kicked in the head.
My daughter who is all of five foot and seven stone wet through trains horses and never has to resort to violence. Nasty, nasty man. If I found his grave I'd spit on it.


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## puunui (Dec 18, 2010)

One more from General Choi's autobiography:

*

In my company, we had two recruits who were Yakuzas(Japanese gangsters), who also had fourth and fifth grade black belts in Judo.... 

They were very arrogant and paid no need to the other newcomers, the seniors, or even to their chiefs of barracks and platoon. They rough necked in my quarters and had an open contest of their judo skills in the corridor to demonstrate their physical power....

At breakfast hour, before our unit went outside for an operation, a bucketsful of rice had already been brought as usual and the bowls were arranged on the table. However, there was nobody except me for breakfast. While I unwillingly started putting rice into the bowls on the table, I waited for two newcomers who were responsible for serving meals for our unit.

As they planned, they appeared at the table only after I had served food for everybody. As their senior, I could not let them go when they did not fulfill their duties. I angrily asked them where they had been. They simply retorted by saying, "None of your business" in a daring tone. I was just at a loss, so I told them we would discuss this matter after breakfast. Then I started my meal. Actually, I attempted to eat my food but I could not swallow it properly because their reaction made me furious.

Until that moment, I had not grasped the situation -- that they were intentionally trying to make me angry by acting in a way that was totally incompatible with the Japanese Army's rules. I never imagined they could do that to me, who had entered the army three months earlier. When I started washing dishes, they also came to me with theirs. I scolded the new recruit, who had a fifth grade black belt in Judo, for what they had done to me. I indicated that their behavior to me was totally improper in the army and also noted that I was their senior.

Instead of an apology, he started an argument instead, insisting "Then, why are you treating your seniors, who came into this unit before you, with no respect?"

I could not stand their behavior and backtalk, so I slapped him lightly on the cheek. At the moment another Japanese reservist soldier, who was standing behind me, grabbed my hand instantly, trying to pull me over with his Judo technique. Yet, as I recovered by balanced pose, I hit them on the face with Karate blows. Both of them fell on their back with thuds. Judo 5th and 4th degree --- in other words, a total of 9 degrees --- had been defeated by a short yet iron handed man of karate. 

*


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## puunui (Dec 18, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> I think that anyone who fights or invites a fight when it is not _NEEDED_ is an idiot. Note that I talk about uncontrolled fights, like in a bar or on the street. Controlled fights like MMA, sparring, etc are controlled, and you know the limits up front.
> The gracie challenges for example fit in the latter category.




The Gracies fought way more outside of the ring than inside. Or at least that is the impression I got from Relson.

Note: GJJ = Gracie Jiu Jitsu


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## Tez3 (Dec 18, 2010)

puunui said:


> The Gracies fought way more outside of the ring than inside. Or at least that is the impression I got from Relson.
> 
> Note: GJJ = Gracie Jiu Jitsu


 
All the books I have by the Gracies call it BJJ.


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## puunui (Dec 18, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> All the books I have by the Gracies call it BJJ.




Do you have the book Gracie Jiu Jitsu written by Grand Master Helio Gracie?


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## Tez3 (Dec 18, 2010)

puunui said:


> Do you have the book Gracie Jiu Jitsu written by Grand Master Helio Gracie?


 
Why?


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 18, 2010)

puunui said:


> The Gracies fought way more outside of the ring than inside. Or at least that is the impression I got from Relson.


Okay, but does that make them smart?  Just because they fought more outside of the ring than inside is not an endorsement of unnecessary fighting or inviting fights unnecessarily.  In essence, your answer to everything is 'well such and such did it'.  

No offense, but so what?  Lots of very accomplished people also make very life choices.  The fact that they are accomplished does not negate the stupidity of poor decision making.

Daniel


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## leadleg (Dec 18, 2010)

StudentCarl said:


> This came up in another thread, and poses a question separate from KKW vs. sport:
> 
> "In fact, the last time I got into a physical altercation, I was at a bar watching Monday Night Football. I was wearing business attire and I was sitting next to some local guy who was taller, bigger and younger than me wearing a lumberjack shirt, ripped jeans, and a baseball cap. Every time I would say something he would say some crap to put me down. After the first quarter, I told him that I was leaving now, but if he wanted to he could wait outside for me while I used the bathroom. When I left, he was waiting for me outside..."
> 
> ...


 obviously when the question is when to use violence it is to protect yourself or someone around you. It seems the thread has turned into is it appropriate to instigate a fight.I have to say I do not blame someone who lets a bully know they are not going to turn tail. It would be in everyone else's best interest to take it outside rather than start something inside the bar,the bouncer would have a different outlook had that happened. On the other hand the bouncer may be a kind of referee if the fight was to take place inside, something to take into account if the guy had friends who would jump in. 
Everyone who makes some excuse to let someone bully them should realise they are afraid, afraid to get hurt,afraid to go to jail, afraid they might lose work......the list goes on but its still fear.
 In puunui's example I don't know what was being said to him,but for me it would have to be more than just words, to overcome my fears.


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## leadleg (Dec 18, 2010)

puunui said:


> Coke, the largest size in the clear plastic cup, and it was on the road going up to Ala Moana Center. We were traveling makai (south) on Keeaumoku, and the right turn lane was at the intersection of King and Keeaumoku, right near the Chevron gas station.
> 
> Also for the other person asking what a slurpee is, it is a frozen drink, like an icee, if you know what that is, except not as light.


 I think the cabbie is crazy to get mad at someone who pulled out in front of him,its Honolulu, you can/have to pull out in front of anyone, as long as you shoot them a shaka or at least wave while you mouth THANK YOU...........*WHERES THE ALOHA? *I do think its funny ,you driving a Lexus, imbibing in frozen concoctions from a 7-11.


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## puunui (Dec 18, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Just because they fought more outside of the ring than inside is not an endorsement of unnecessary fighting or inviting fights unnecessarily.  In essence, your answer to everything is 'well such and such did it'.  No offense, but so what?  Lots of very accomplished people also make very life choices.  The fact that they are accomplished does not negate the stupidity of poor decision making. Daniel



If you look back at the original question, I gave the Gracie example and then asked if that would have gotten them kicked out of his dojang for fighting, the point being was that the  the challenges, in and out of the ring, brought a revolutionary concept to the martial arts, one that really has changed the martial arts.

So I wasn't answering anything, I was asking a question. But thank you for your answer, because we now know that you think the Gracies are stupid for making poor decisions.


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## puunui (Dec 18, 2010)

leadleg said:


> I think the cabbie is crazy to get mad at someone who pulled out in front of him,its Honolulu, you can/have to pull out in front of anyone, as long as you shoot them a shaka or at least wave while you mouth THANK YOU.




If it was me, I would have slowed down and let him in. I let everyone in in traffic, at least during non rush hour like this was. In rush hour, I let in one, and so does everyone else, so the merging is orderly and smooth.


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## puunui (Dec 18, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> Why?




Because you said all the books you owned written by a Gracie called the art BJJ, not GJJ. In GM Helio's book, the title is GJJ, and he calls it GJJ.


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 18, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> I've heard of 'roid rage but was this a sugar rush then?
> 
> BTW it looks disgusting!


Blasphemer!:soapbox:


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 18, 2010)

puunui said:


> How do you feel about fighting with a horse? Here is a story from General Choi's autobiography:
> 
> *
> As punishment for my stubbornness, they assigned me to the most untrained and wild horse, called Hujida. Nevertheless, after I secretly trained the horse with my fists and kicks inside the base stable, it became docile within several days as it is known that horses are intelligent animals....
> ...


Having been attacked by a mean horse as a child,myself, I can see a round kick to a head that is biting at you, but, but it sounds more like this guy was into the violence of it all.
Sean


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## Tez3 (Dec 18, 2010)

puunui said:


> Because you said all the books you owned written by a Gracie called the art BJJ, not GJJ. In GM Helio's book, the title is GJJ, and he calls it GJJ.


 
Doesn't make it GJJ though, it's still BJJ. Of course he'd want it named after himself lol. He had a lot to do with it sure enough but it's always been called BJJ.

ToD, I'm up to my knees in snow here you think an iced drink sounds good to me 


Hot chocolate or Ovaltine!


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## searcher (Dec 18, 2010)

I think we all understand that many MAists have fought outside the ring.    I used to all the time.    Do I now?     Heck no.      There is an ever increasing risk of being stabbed or shot by somebody you beat down or their friends.     Not to mention the legal issues that come up as well.      If someone wants to risk their life by fighting outside the ring, then it is up to them to deal with the consequences of their actions.


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## dancingalone (Dec 18, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> Doesn't make it GJJ though, it's still BJJ. Of course he'd want it named after himself lol. He had a lot to do with it sure enough but it's always been called BJJ.



I thought BJJ exists precisely because Maeda taught Carlos Gracie his form of jujutsu.  The Gracies then proceed to adapt and modify and add to what Maeda taught over the years.  And then inevitably, other Brazilians learned from the Gracies (some other sources too) and begin their own evolution.

I don't think it's too far off the mark to call it Grace Jiu Jitsu.  Arguably with Carlos Gracie, maybe BJJ never even exists.

Not a big deal, but I've also seen references here and there to 'Gracie Jiu Jitsu'.  Doesn't the Gracie family now own a trademark for the phrase?


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## Tez3 (Dec 18, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> I thought BJJ exists precisely because Maeda taught Carlos Gracie his form of jujutsu. The Gracies then proceed to adapt and modify and add to what Maeda taught over the years. And then inevitably, other Brazilians learned from the Gracies (some other sources too) and begin their own evolution.
> 
> I don't think it's too far off the mark to call it Grace Jiu Jitsu. Arguably with Carlos Gracie, maybe BJJ never even exists.
> 
> Not a big deal, but I've also seen references here and there to 'Gracie Jiu Jitsu'. Doesn't the Gracie family now own a trademark for the phrase?


 

They don't own it here at least, I doubt to be honest they could trademark it as it's also been deveolped and expanded by other practicioners. Calling it BJJ means we are all on the same page, GJJ means little perhaps outside the Americas where the Gracies have done their marketing. We have a great many Brazilians teaching BJJ around the rest of the world none of whom are Gracies.


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## seasoned (Dec 18, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> Doesn't make it GJJ though, it's still BJJ. Of course he'd want it named after himself lol. He had a lot to do with it sure enough but it's always been called BJJ.
> 
> ToD, I'm up to my knees in snow here you think an iced drink sounds good to me
> 
> ...


 
Ovaltine, yes, Ovaltine for sure.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I would definitely invite this confrontation.......


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## dancingalone (Dec 19, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> We have a great many Brazilians teaching BJJ around the rest of the world none of whom are Gracies.




Yes, and they somehow owe it all to the Gracies ultimately, no?  It's a bit like all the Shotokan teachers being connected to Funakoshi somehow.  Funakoshi-ryu wouldn't be too inappropriate a name for Shotokan karate.  In fact, 'Shotokan' is a reference to his pen name.


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## Tez3 (Dec 19, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Yes, and they somehow owe it all to the Gracies ultimately, no? It's a bit like all the Shotokan teachers being connected to Funakoshi somehow. Funakoshi-ryu wouldn't be too inappropriate a name for Shotokan karate. In fact, 'Shotokan' is a reference to his pen name.


 
True enough and I knew about the Shotokan pen name but the point is that in the rest of the world it is marketed as BJJ so when we talk about it we know exactly what we are talking about, GJJ doesn't ring any bells which is why I had to ask, I wasn't being funny I really didn't know what GJJ was because it's never called that over here. The Gracies marketing concentrated on the Americas as I said and probably there are good many outside America who don't know of the connection between the Gracies and this style but practice BJJ quite happily under instructors who have never even meet a Gracie which is a good Scottish name by the way.


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## dowan50 (Dec 19, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Okay, but does that make them smart? Just because they fought more outside of the ring than inside is not an endorsement of unnecessary fighting or inviting fights unnecessarily. In essence, your answer to everything is 'well such and such did it'.
> 
> No offense, but so what? Lots of very accomplished people also make very life choices. The fact that they are accomplished does not negate the stupidity of poor decision making.
> 
> Daniel


 
It would seem this whole forum is to worship boyish machoism yes there have been times when many of the pioneers have had to use violence but most did not brag or use it as a focus to encourage others there is a line between military use which must be what it is and a certain mind set related to domestic life and family. Even in a recent national teaching seminar teaching tkd history with a gm pioneer from the west coast his most proud accomplishment was the non violent way he made enemies into students and freinds. Most real accomplished men who have had to face real life and death situations have had enough and learned the real lesson of ma and teach that to thier students to weigh the end result costs of your actions before you act.

Do what is necessary withthe least amount of effort or cost when ever possible. there is no need to prove anything over words however when a serious situation presents itself they do not hesitate to act quickly and decisivley and in many cases the confidence of thier knowledge and experience is enough to back down or defuse a situation.

as a 40 student of one of Mas Oyama's prominent students who considered him his first cousin he loved to share many personal stories of his strength but always pointed out that his attitude caused him to not have a very good personal life. 

Erney Reyes's GM taught that no man is your enemy even if you have to hurt him you are hurting a brother and should not take that lightly. 

I have seen many confrontational accomplished in thier minds people push the envelope and thier lives seem to be empty with out joy and many have ended badly. To suggest that no one knows how to fight or all is one on one is dangerous to suggest to younger impressionable people that attitude will not go over in many neighbor hoods or cultures where everyone has a gun or knife or will not hesitate to gang up just for fun. 

Some times a person is having a bad day your having compasionn and understanding at that moment could effect thier life weeks or months later. these are the lessons that traditional ma teach not cage fighting or little boy bravado of my dad can kick your dads butt. as a senior the little boy in us is what keeps us young but wisdom has taught us to keep him in check. 

The laws in many cases make it difficult even costly no matter what your justification are you going to risk that because you feel your worth is somehow better than that person. 

Real ma experienced people do not wast thier time with verbal or physical confrontational as a way to approach every situations it is considered imature and unwise.

Learn how to be a good person husband father that is most important


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## Bruno@MT (Dec 19, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Yes, and they somehow owe it all to the Gracies ultimately, no?  It's a bit like all the Shotokan teachers being connected to Funakoshi somehow.  Funakoshi-ryu wouldn't be too inappropriate a name for Shotokan karate.  In fact, 'Shotokan' is a reference to his pen name.



Actually, it would be inappropriate imo, because the system is not taught and passed down as a ryuha. And that kind of defeats the entire philosophy behind he ryuha concept.
If you wanted to name it after him, Funakoshi karate would be a better choice of words. Or if you want to go with the ryuha concept, that could work too but then there would have to be a way to verify lineage AND to certify that an independent instructor got a full and complete transmission of the art before he branched off independently. And if he started teaching, he should teach it the way it was taught, and not add anything either.


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## Tez3 (Dec 19, 2010)

dowan50 said:


> It would seem this whole forum is to worship boyish machoism yes there have been times when many of the pioneers have had to use violence but most did not brag or use it as a focus to encourage others there is a line between military use which must be what it is and a certain mind set related to domestic life and family. Even in a recent national teaching seminar teaching tkd history with a gm pioneer from the west coast his most proud accomplishment was the non violent way he made enemies into students and freinds. Most real accomplished men who have had to face real life and death situations have had enough and learned the real lesson of ma and teach that to thier students to weigh the end result costs of your actions before you act.
> 
> Do what is necessary withthe least amount of effort or cost when ever possible. there is no need to prove anything over words however when a serious situation presents itself they do not hesitate to act quickly and decisivley and in many cases the confidence of thier knowledge and experience is enough to back down or defuse a situation.
> 
> ...


 
You assume then that this forum is only for men?


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## dancingalone (Dec 19, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> Actually, it would be inappropriate imo, because the system is not taught and passed down as a ryuha. And that kind of defeats the entire philosophy behind he ryuha concept.
> If you wanted to name it after him, Funakoshi karate would be a better choice of words. Or if you want to go with the ryuha concept, that could work too but then there would have to be a way to verify lineage AND to certify that an independent instructor got a full and complete transmission of the art before he branched off independently. And if he started teaching, he should teach it the way it was taught, and not add anything either.



Who said anything about ryu-ha?  Or Japanese martial customs or culture or philosophy for that matter?  I supposed I opened things up by mentioning 'Funakoshi-ryu', but I was really speaking more towards the man as being the person behind Shotokan karate.  Incidentally, there is a 'Funakoshi-ryu' organization right in your part of the world, in Belgium.  You can also find references to karate systems like 'Itosu-ryu' originating in Japan.  You seem to be following the definition of ryu as a concept based in the menkyo kaiden system of budo arts.  I believe karate systems call themselves ryu or ryu-ha, but they certainly don't adhere to a menkyo kaiden licensing scheme as a rule.

Regardless, it's a matter of whom is responsible primarily for BJJ existing in the first place.  That would be the Gracies.  Thus GJJ as an alternate name would not be out of place, and in fact if you keep up with BJJ, you should know that GJJ can and has been used as such in the past to refer to BJJ in the main.  These days, more people seem to make the distinction between GJJ and BJJ which is fine.


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## searcher (Dec 19, 2010)

From personal experience I know that there is a movement to differentiate between GJJ and BJJ.     Many are trying to set a distinction that BJJ is the sport oriented version of what started in the 1920's and that GJJ is the self defense version of the same style.      I think it is silly, as they started at the same place and with the same people being the originators of the style.

It feels like they are trying to seperate it like, "sport" karate and "knockdown" karate.    Same roots, different methodology.


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## Tez3 (Dec 19, 2010)

searcher said:


> From personal experience I know that there is a movement to differentiate between GJJ and BJJ. Many are trying to set a distinction that BJJ is the sport oriented version of what started in the 1920's and that GJJ is the self defense version of the same style. I think it is silly, as they started at the same place and with the same people being the originators of the style.
> 
> It feels like they are trying to seperate it like, "sport" karate and "knockdown" karate. Same roots, different methodology.


 

That may well explain why we have only heard really of BJJ. the 'sports' version if that is what it is, is definitely the more well known and popular version. Most people I know though do BJJ as both sport and self defence. sounds like a bit of a chicken and egg situation in that we can go round in circles with this.


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## David43515 (Dec 19, 2010)

puunui said:


> I don't or didn't need ESP since he wasn't hurt permanently. I've heard of people getting hit too hard, one of my friends actually kicked someone in the chest and killed him. As for him packing a gun, he wasn't. As for a couple of friends joining in, no one did. But hey, if you don't like it, that's cool. No problem. Look down upon me all you want.


 
Dude, I don`t look down on you. I`ve done the same stuff. But I`m honest with myself about it. You said it wasn`t about your ego because that would make you sound like you`re in the wrong. So instead, you said it was about him bothering you....by saying something you didn`t like, not showing you any respect. *THAT makes it all about ego.*
You don`t see that?

You did the same thing in your story about the taxi driver. You start by saying you cut the guy off by not turning when you were in the turn only lane. (But it wasn`t your fault of course) He over reacted, I`ll give you that. But then you tossed your drink at his windshield like a 4 year old. Was this at the light, or while he was driving?  People get pissed off and get into fights. It happens. You do it. I do it. All I`m saying is you need to be able to admit to yourself afterwards when you`re partly to blame.


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## Mark Jordan (Dec 19, 2010)

To avoid confrontations you have to simply stay away from trouble or anything that look like trouble.  Think before you speak. Do not rush into every situation or problem you confront.

In the situation you've given, I would just ignore him.  Go in one ear and out the other.


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## leadleg (Dec 19, 2010)

Mark Jordan said:


> To avoid confrontations you have to simply stay away from trouble or anything that look like trouble. Think before you speak. Do not rush into every situation or problem you confront.
> 
> In the situation you've given, I would just ignore him. Go in one ear and out the other.


 What if you are on an Island and are likely to run into this bully over and over, are you going to not go where this person is, or leave where you are if he shows up,will you have to stay at your office run to your car and stay home? There is only so much you should have to put up with before you need make a stand.
 It is like a slow leak in a tire,if you don't fix it when you are near a station it will strand you at some inconvenient spot. 
Better to meet him outside now than have him sucker punch you later.
 I think this is one of those situations when "you had to be" there before deciding who is right or wrong.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 19, 2010)

puunui said:


> If you look back at the original question, I gave the Gracie example and then asked if that would have gotten them kicked out of his dojang for fighting, the point being was that the  the challenges, in and out of the ring, brought a revolutionary concept to the martial arts, one that really has changed the martial arts.


I did look.  



puunui said:


> So I wasn't answering anything, I was asking a question. But thank you for your answer, because we now know that you think the Gracies are stupid for making poor decisions.


Sure, if thats how you want to view it.  

Daniel


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## searcher (Dec 19, 2010)

If you have a bully, send in your video to Bully Beatdown.     They will fix it for you.


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## leadleg (Dec 19, 2010)

searcher said:


> If you have a bully, send in your video to Bully Beatdown. They will fix it for you.


 Can I get Puunui as my fixer then?


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