# Genbukan - Gift of Traditional Martial Arts!



## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 15, 2009)

Okay here is a link to the Genbukan movie *Gift of Traditional Martial Arts*!

http://www.giftoftma.com/

There is a nice video clip on the page showing parts from the movie.


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## newtothe dark (Feb 16, 2009)

Yeah saw that on another board looks like a real well done video.
Thanks again Brian you are the guro of Vidoes:ultracool


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## Aiki Lee (Feb 16, 2009)

I will probably buy that dvd. That coleman guy looks awesome too.


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## MJS (Feb 16, 2009)

Thanks for posting that Brian.   Even though I don't train in that art, it looks very interesting.  I'll probably buy a copy.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Feb 16, 2009)

Great DVD.

Himura,

Mr. Coleman is I think one of the highest ranking Genbukan teachers in the U.S.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 16, 2009)

Yes it looks like a good watch so I am probably going to get a copy myself!


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## WesternCiv (Feb 16, 2009)

Kyoshi Coleman is the highest ranking US Genbukan student.  I had the honor of him grading my last kyu test -- he's an extraordinary individual both as a martial artist and a human being.  Can't wait to get the dvd.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Feb 16, 2009)

> Kyoshi Coleman is the highest ranking US Genbukan student. I had the honor of him grading my last kyu test -- he's an extraordinary individual both as a martial artist and a human being. Can't wait to get the dvd.


 I think Mr. Gary Giamboi also matches Mr. Coleman as far as ranking goes since they are both Kyoshi in title and both hold the same degrees in Jujutsu and Ninjutsu. Only differences is Mr. Coleman has special instuctor ranking and has a Menkyo in Yagyu but the Ninpo and KJJR is the same.


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## David Weatherly (Feb 16, 2009)

Nice clip Brian, thanks.  I'm interested to see the full dvd.


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## seasoned (Feb 16, 2009)

Thanks Brian, this clip and subsequent dvd depicts the very reason I started martial arts, and continue to train to this day.


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## WesternCiv (Feb 17, 2009)

> I think Mr. Gary Giamboi also matches Mr. Coleman as far as ranking goes since they are both Kyoshi in title and both hold the same degrees in Jujutsu and Ninjutsu.


 
Quite right.  The correct terminology should have been the most "senior" US Genbukan student.

Giamboi Kyoshi is a very skilled martial artist who I believe is also an accomplished yoga instuctor.


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## George Kohler (Feb 18, 2009)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> I think Mr. Gary Giamboi also matches Mr. Coleman as far as ranking goes since they are both Kyoshi in title and both hold the same degrees in Jujutsu and Ninjutsu. Only differences is Mr. Coleman has special instuctor ranking and has a Menkyo in Yagyu but the Ninpo and KJJR is the same.



I believe the difference is that Coleman Kyoshi received his last rank and title before Giamboi Kyoshi.

Sorry, did not see the last post before, but yes, he is more senior.


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## Yugen (Feb 21, 2009)

This is a great film, and in my opinion truly shows what happens when the principles and teachings you'd find in our martial art as taught by Grandmaster Tanemura are applied to real life.  


 The film itself covers a whole lot of stuff, and is a really good presentation of not only the humanitarian aspect of our art, but also shows in depth the many aspects of the martial arts taught under the Genbukan umbrella.   


 Highly recommended!


 - Bard


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## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 21, 2009)

My copy should be arriving by Monday or Tuesday at the latest I will be reviewing it on my blog around then.


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## Cryozombie (Feb 21, 2009)

I have a question.  I know before I ask it that it is going to cause problems and start arguments, please understand this is NOT my intention, I don't want this to turn into a political thread, and I'm not trying to start anything... It's just somthing I have always taken for granted, but as I continue to progress in my development, and explore the background of the art, and its history and traditions, I feel compelled to enquire about.

At the beginning of that clip, Mister Tanemura claims Grandmastership of 26 Ryu-ha, is that correct... and I assume 9 of those are the ones also taught by the Bujinkan and the Jinenkan... if so, who granted him "grandmastership" or did he give it to himself under the umbrella of the "Genbukan" grandmastership?  And going along with that, what are the japanese traditions as far as foundings, and passing along arts etc...  Is it common for a "Master" to pass ownership to multiple students... I've seen in the west how common it is for someone to "spin off" and form their own "Sokeship"... is it done that way in Japan often?

And again, these are NOT baited questions and I am NOT looking for a fight/argument to start... I'm trying to understand how these things are done, what the traditions and precidents for this are in the east.


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## newtothe dark (Feb 21, 2009)

I am not an expert but this is off the Gen web page

_At the age of fifteen, he began to study Shindo Muso ryu Kenpo from the renowned Master Seishiro Saito. It was during these high school days that his quest for true martial arts was beginning take form and blossom. At the age of fifteen, Tanemura sensei also was fortunate enough to be initiated into the famous Asayama Ichiden ryu taijutsu along with Takagi Yoshin ryu jujutsu, Gikan ryu koppojutsu as well as other ancient schools of bujutsu (Japanese martial arts). His training was so concentrated, that he received his menkyo kaiden (full mastership) in Shinden Fudo ryu and Kukishin ryu at the age of twenty. 

During his university days, Grand Master Tanemura was introduced to Dr. Kinbei Sato. Even though Sato sensei taught martial arts to many people, very few (including Tanemura sensei, at first) knew of Dr. Sato's training with Takamatsu sensei. It wasn't until more than a decade later, that Tanemura sensei (after ending his relationship with another teacher and starting the Genbukan) rediscovered Sato sensei. He was given special kuden (secret oral teachings) and by the winter of 1989, Dr. Kinbei Sato named him as the next Soke (Grandmaster) of Takagi Yoshin ryu, Bokuden ryu, Gikan ryu, and Kukishin ryu._ 

Hope that helps some


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Feb 21, 2009)

Hey Cryo I think Mr.Tanemura recieved Sokeship from Sato Kinbei and Masharu Kimura.

I think he recieved Menkyo from Mr.Hatsumi thus making his Tanemura-ha branches.

I don't understand the Chinese Bagua grandmastership because Wang shu jin has passed his line on to alot of others and Li Zi Ming who taught hie own form of Liang style Bagua has also passed on his teachings. So IMO it is errorous to say Grandmastership in Wang shu jin bagua or Cheng(some say Wang's Bagua comes from Cheng style) or Li Zi Ming Bagua or even Liang style Bagua grandmaster. What would most likely be correct is 5th generation because Li Zi Ming was I believe 3rd generation. Also Wang Shu Jin also learned Xingyi quan and a couple other styles that I don't think are in the Genbukan's forms. The Liang family does recognize Li Zi Ming's two man sequences that the Genbukan has you can purchase the Liang two man drill that Li Zi Ming taught on Plumpub.com.


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## Chris Parker (Feb 22, 2009)

Hi,

Tanemura Sensei claims the Soke-ship in 26 arts via a number of means, including the formation of his own branches (Tanemura-ha) of many of the Bujinkan arts, such as Togakure Ryu, Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu etc after leaving Hatsumi Sensei and forming the Genbukan; the splitting of the various branches of Kukishin Ryuha (Kukishinden Happo Biken, Kukishin Ryu Bojutsu, Hontai Kukishin Ryu, Shinden Tatara Ryu, Kijin Chosui Ryu etc); and Ryuha obtained from other teachers, such as Kimura Sensei, Ueno Sensei, and Sato Sensei. These include Asayama Ichiden Ryu, Bokuden Ryu, Yagyu Shingan Ryu Katchu Yawara, Tenshin Koryu, and the Chinese systems.

From all reports, after splitting with Hatsumi Sensei, Tanemura Sensei spent a number of years seeking out former students and training partners of Takamatsu Sensei, and learned everything he could from them. 

I may  have missed out a bit, or gotten one or two things mixed up, Genbukan/KJJR guys, please correct anything you feel I have erred on.


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## Mark Bramble (Feb 22, 2009)

Hello everyone!

I believe Mr. Parker is pretty accurate from my understanding. I'm not sure if it's been stated, but to clarify Tanemura Soke learned the x-kan specific Ryu-ha from a few sources, and this is represented in the Tanemura-ha. He also still maintains a teacher which has taught at the 2005 Japan Taikai, and I think at the 2007 one as well.

As for the movie, it was shown a couple of times at the latest Milwaukee Taikai, and is very good imho.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 24, 2009)

Here is a review of the movie: *Gift of Traditional Martial Arts* located on my blog *The Instinctive Edge*!


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## Yugen (Feb 24, 2009)

Nice review, Brian... 

I think one of the aspects of our martial arts that is not talked about so much is seishinteki kyoyo: spiritual refinement. I think a key issue that the movie is trying to bring across is just that. When the martial artist has that right focus, then he or she can give something back to society. As I understand it, this is a big part of Tanemura Soke´s message, and why - in addition to the great variety of material arts we study - it is so rewarding to be a part of the Genbukan.

I think people who keep pounding the old question of "is ninpo relevant in today's world" need to look deeper. 

All the best,
Bard


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## George Kohler (Feb 25, 2009)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> I don't understand the Chinese Bagua grandmastership because Wang shu jin has passed his line on to alot of others and Li Zi Ming who taught hie own form of Liang style Bagua has also passed on his teachings. So IMO it is errorous to say Grandmastership in Wang shu jin bagua or Cheng(some say Wang's Bagua comes from Cheng style) or Li Zi Ming Bagua or even Liang style Bagua grandmaster. What would most likely be correct is 5th generation because Li Zi Ming was I believe 3rd generation.



I think you are confused. In the Genbukan website there is a page which lists his "masterships." Some he has listed as soke and some menkyo kaiden are listed as well. Of course there is an exception, and that one exception is Hakkesho. The one listed for Hakkesho (Japanese for Baguazhang) says 5th "denjin" (&#20253;&#20154 which translates roughly as "lineage holder." This implies he is qualified to teach Baguazhang and is a 5th generation holder. I hope this helps with the understanding.


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## JadeDragon3 (Feb 25, 2009)

Great video trailor.  

I trained for a short while under one of Stephen K. Hayes' students back in 1989.  This was back when Hayes and Hatsumi were still together and on good terms and before Hayes found that To Shin Do crap.  I really enjoyed my ninja classes (LOL) back then but the teacher moved away.  We were not part of the Bujinkan Dojo but were members of the Shadows of Iga Society. 

I will probably buy this DVD.  It looks really good.


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## Chris Parker (Feb 26, 2009)

Cryozombie said:


> And going along with that, what are the japanese traditions as far as foundings, and passing along arts etc... Is it common for a "Master" to pass ownership to multiple students... I've seen in the west how common it is for someone to "spin off" and form their own "Sokeship"... is it done that way in Japan often?


 
Sorry, Cryo, I missed this part of your question earlier. I just posted this in another thread, hopefully it'll help here.

Menkyo Kaiden is a certificate of full transmission of a particular Ryu, or school. The circumstances under which it is awarded changes depending on the system, the established tradition, and the head at the time. It involves not only knowing all the techniques as listed in the Mokuroku (literally, a catalogue, or list of techniques), but an internallisation of the strategies, tactics, and principles of the school. It also often involves Kuden, and Okuden (oral teachings, and inner, or hidden teachings). There may or may not be other Okuden teachings that are reserved for the next Soke and no other. 

The 13th Soke of Takagi Ryu was named Yagi Jigero Hisayashi, and he had a number of students. When he came ot awarding Menkyo Kaiden, he had 3 top students, Ishitani, Ishibashi, and Fujita. He chose to award Menkyo Kaiden to only Ishibashi and Fujita, leaving Ishitani out. Ishitani then ambushed Yagi as he was walking in Okura valley with a drawn katana, attacking the Soke. Yagi escaped by throwing a piece of wood at Ishitani as a distraction. The next night, Ishitani arrived at the dojo, and Yagi greeted him as if nothing had happened. He then took Ishitani to the back room, and awarded him Menkyo Kaiden. As they left, Yagi said "Who would have given you your Menkyo Kaiden if I was dead?" So it's not always such a happy occasion, and pettiness gets involved from time to time.

Each of these Menkyo holders sent their teachings down different branches, giving the groupings we have today, including, from Ishitani, the branch(es) found in the Bujinkan, Genbukan, Jinenkan, and split-off organisations. This is a very common thing, and it is assumed that you take your Menkyo Kaiden and form your own interpretation. It is only in (relatively) recent times that students would stay with a teacher after achieving Menkyo Kaiden, and that is very much a peacetime adaptation.

As stated above, in fuedal periods, the awarding of Menkyo Kaiden was similar to a graduation, and marked the end of the students time with that particular teacher or Ryu. The student might seek out another teacher or Ryu (like doing a post-graduate course), or may simply start up their own dojo based on what they had learned. The decision to change or preserve things rested entirely with the student (now Instructor). A major deviation would result in a new Ryu, a more minor one may just be a different branch (as Tanemura Sensei has begun teaching his Tanemura-ha branches of various schools).


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Feb 26, 2009)

> I think you are confused. In the Genbukan website there is a page which lists his "masterships." Some he has listed as soke and some menkyo kaiden are listed as well. Of course there is an exception, and that one exception is Hakkesho. The one listed for Hakkesho (Japanese for Baguazhang) says 5th "denjin" (&#20253;&#20154 which translates roughly as "lineage holder." This implies he is qualified to teach Baguazhang and is a 5th generation holder. I hope this helps with the understanding.


 
Hey George thanks for clearing that up. However I can not find the term Denjin in any Kanji dictionary. Den meaning passing on and Jin meaning person. Lineage is kakei. The term Denjin means more like passenger or something. I guess if you put Den-passing and Jin-person together I guess you can come up with Lineage holder but to Japanese native it seems to not be the same. Here is a link claiming to be 5th grandmaster http://bamatatsumaki.tripod.com/tanemura/grandmasterships.html 



> Chinese Martial Art Hakkesho Pa Kua 5th Grandmaster


 
Also where does the Imperial Qigong come from? I have not heard of this type of Qigong before.



> *Imperial Qi Gong: *Method taught by Dr. Warner Chen, a proponent of Human Resources Chi Gong, Marrow Cleansing Chi Gong, and Quantum Leap Chi Gong therapy. Imperial Chi Gong. Imperial Qi Gong is a variation of Qigong therapy.


http://www.experiencefestival.com/forum/vBTube.php?do=search&search=Imperial%20Qi%20Gong&page=1&per_page=24 Imperial Qigong Bagua terrible performace though.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Feb 26, 2009)

I wanted to add this as well: http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl?Sato_Kinbei



> Sato was made the 4th generation grandmaster of Kakkesho.


 I think they meant Hakkesho




> Tanemura Sensei received the 5th generation grandmastership


 Again the claim of grandmastership not just 5th generation but 5th generation GRANDMASTER. 


http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl?chugoku

This implies that Li Zi Ming either Li Zi Ming,Sato Kimbei,or Wang shu jin passed this on.

http://www.natsta.org/MartialArts/liangZhenPuBagua.asp



> In 1989, Master Li appointed Vincent Black as president of the United States branch of the Li Ziming Baguazhang family. Working closely with Master Li, Dr. Black coordinated the English translation and publication of Master Li's commemorative treatise on Liang Zhenpu Eight Diagram Palm.


 
In the original Ninpo Bugei taijutsu manual(not the revise) do we not find it listed as 5th grandmaster and not "denjin"?

http://bamatatsumaki.tripod.com/tanemura/grandmasterships.html

Is this not the list from that original manual?



> He started learning Chinese martial arts in 1956 and was the first Japanese who became 4th generation Grandmaster in Chinese martial art Hakkesho (Pa-Kua).


 http://www.myojo-dojo.com/initial_page.htm

Here we go again with the 4th generation GRANDMASTER.
Again Imperial Qigong in Japanese it is listed as Kiko(which just means Qigong)So where does the Imperial fit in?

Also the titles Japan Chinese Martial Art Federation, Saitama Director
Japan Jujutsu Federation, Executive President 

Do these organizations exist?
Here is Japanese Jujutsu international federation http://www.ajjif.org/

If you can provide a link in English or Japanese that would be great.


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## George Kohler (Feb 26, 2009)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> Hey George thanks for clearing that up. However I can not find the term Denjin in any Kanji dictionary. Den meaning passing on and Jin meaning person. Lineage is kakei. The term Denjin means more like passenger or something. I guess if you put Den-passing and Jin-person together I guess you can come up with Lineage holder but to Japanese native it seems to not be the same.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Damn, I had a good reply and I lost it... This is a shortened version of the lost reply.

The reason you can't find the word "denshin" in a Japanese dictionary is because it is not a Japanese word per se. It is a Chinese word pronounced in Japanese. The Chinese pronounces it as 'chuanren' and they use alternate characters (&#20659;&#20154; or &#20256;&#20154 and can be found in a Chinese dictionary. http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?page=worddictbasic&wdqb=chuan+ren&wdrst=1&wdeac=1

To explain more on 'chuanren' here is a quote from a interview of White Crane master Su Ying Han:



> PengCheng Chen: When you adopt a disciple, what is your expectation? Have you got any particular requirements for such a disciple?
> 
> 
> 
> Master YingHan Su: First of all, I would like to say something on the differences between a disciple and a student. For those who come and train occasionally and whose purposes are for the health-keeping, I would like to group them as "students." As with the disciple, we have got several kinds of disciples. In YongChun County, the first disciple that a sifu has is called "KaiShanMen Disciple" -??-, which can be translated as, "Open-the-door-of-the-Mountain Disciple." The last disciple that a sifu has is known as "GuanShanMen Disciple -??-, which literally means, "Close-the-door-of-the-mountain Disciple." The third kind of disciple is those who train and live with a sifu for a period of long years&#8212;we name it as "DengTanRuShi Disciple," From these three kinds of disciples, only the prominent and the skillful will have the opportunity to become the so-called "ChuanRen." ChuanRen is a person who can inherit White Crane kung fu in a systematic manner.


The reason you see it listed under "Grandmasterships" or "Masterships" is because we refer these terms as some who has received menkyo kaiden (or the   equivalent to complete transmission) or "soke." There are exceptions to this and this would be for Hakkesho (baguazhang) which the term is "denshin" (see above). We do not refer "denshin" as "soke" which is not a Chinese concept.

As for Imperial Qigong, I am not sure. I've only been trained in "jing gong" (tranquil/quiescent work - In Japanese it is called Seiko) which is the body being still and the mind is controlling the qi (chi).

I hope this helps.


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## George Kohler (Feb 26, 2009)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> http://www.natsta.org/MartialArts/liangZhenPuBagua.asp
> 
> In 1989, Master Li appointed Vincent Black as president of the United States branch of the Li Ziming Baguazhang family. Working closely with Master Li, Dr. Black coordinated the English translation and publication of Master Li's commemorative treatise on Liang Zhenpu Eight Diagram Palm.



I'm not sure why this was brought up. 



JadecloudAlchemist said:


> Also the titles Japan Chinese Martial Art Federation, Saitama Director
> Japan Jujutsu Federation, Executive President
> 
> Do these organizations exist?
> Here is Japanese Jujutsu international federation http://www.ajjif.org/



The link you posted has Dr.                          John J. Williams as the international director, which is a red flag.

As for the Japan Chinese Martial Art Federation (&#20840;&#26085;&#26412;&#20013;&#22269;&#25331;&#27861;&#36899;&#30431; - Zen Nihon Chugoku Kenpo Renmei), Sato Kinbei was the President.  I believe Tanemura Sensei left the organization when Sato Sensei passed away. Sato Kinbei's daughter is now in control of that organization. www.jujutsu.com

I think the Japan Jujutsu Federation was an organization that Sato Kinbei, Tanemura Sensei, Kaminaga Shigemi, andI think a few others. They created this back in early 90's when they were doing seminar type classes of their ryuha. After a few years later Tanemura Sensei distance himself from the others (not Sato Kinbei). I don't have the kanji for this organization and there was no website since the web was not around then.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Feb 26, 2009)

> &#20659;&#20154; or &#20256;&#20154;


 
Pronounced as Fu jin if the Kanji is typed in a Japanese translator.

But this Kanji is not used as Denjin or for the meaning of Denjin.


> The reason you can't find the word "denshin" in a Japanese dictionary is because it is not a Japanese word per se. It is a Chinese word pronounced in Japanese.


There is Denshin and Denjin in dictionary translator. Denshin can mean Gentleman or cable transfer depending on the Kanji. I already said what Denjin is.
So yes it is Japanese word. Usually Chinese words mean the same in Japanese/ Qi=ki Liangzhi=Renshi Hakkesho=Bagua etc etc



> &#20256;&#35805;&#20154;


 Here is the Hanzi for Chuan hua ren but this translates as messenger same as Denjin kinda of translates and not as Grandmaster or linerage holder. http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?page=worddictbasic&wdqb=chuan+ren&wdrst=1&wdeac=1





> The reason you see it listed under "Grandmasterships" or "Masterships" is because we refer these terms as some who has received menkyo kaiden (or the equivalent to complete transmission) or "soke." There are exceptions to this and this would be for Hakkesho (baguazhang) which the term is "denshin" (see above). We do not refer "denshin" as "soke" which is not a Chinese concept.


 I see it listed as 5th grandmaster has I have shown in the links I provided. Not generation holder I think there is a difference and it seems a bit misleading.
Example: My line does come from Wang shu jin(4th generation)-Mr.C.C.(5th generation)-Mr.C.(6th generation)-Me(7th generation) But we can not claim grandmaster but generation even though the teachings were passed on because Wang shu jin and Li Zi Ming had hundereds of students which Mr.Black represents the United states branch.
Are you saying the title is now Denshin or Denjin?



> jing gong


 
Calm training. If the body is still and the mind is controling Qi then it would be Nei gong(inner training) or Yi Yi Yin Qi which means using intent(mind) to lead Qi. Also what is the Kanji for Seiko. Is the Kanji Sei and Ko put together to get Tranquil(sei) and the Ko from Kiko?


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## George Kohler (Feb 26, 2009)

Ok, I give up. You win.


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## newtothe dark (Feb 27, 2009)

Dont give up George fight till the last drop!!!!! hehe


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Feb 27, 2009)

I did not think we were fighting.

The point was Mr.Tanemura claimed to be 5th grandmaster in Bagua.
He did change it to 5th generation grandmaster and changed the title to Denjin. Denjin is made up of the Kanji Den and Jin. Den=transmission,passing Jin=person. So yes in a way you can see it as messenger=Den(passing information) Jin-person Passenger(Den-(passing)Jin-person. I suppose you can get Den(transmission) Jin=person. But if we look at the Kanji for linerage or decendant we do not get Denjin because as George said it is not a Japanese word per say.

George then said that Chuan ren is the way Japanese say Denjin however if we look at the Kanji &#20659;&#20154; This is read as Fujin Fu-Assisant Jin-person which kinda of reads the same in Chinese as Chuanren according to the link. If in some way Den=Chuan(which the Kanji/hanzi says Fu) Ren=Jin(person then I guess we can see it as Denjin as Chuanren(though the Kanji/Hanzi reads differently.) Mr.Tanemura is a 5th generation Bagua practicer(Li Zi Ming was 3rd Sato Kinbei was 4th) but the Grandmaster title or Denjin does not seem to be correct.


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## skepticsnake (Aug 2, 2009)

to get back on topic - the DVD - does anyone know where i can buy it from a UK site? Thanks


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