# Is this the way it should be?



## IcemanSK (Aug 16, 2007)

I have a question for you to get get your views. 

I'm ending my relationship with the city community center where I've run my program for nearly 2 years. It's an amicable split. (I changed jobs & they couldn't rearrange their schedule to accomodate me). The City has paid the fees to the organization for me. There is a charter document that states that we are a "card carrying member" of the organization. In talking about the charter document, I was told that the City would charge me a pro-rated amount if I wanted to take the document with me.

In reality*,*_ I_ am the charter. The City merely paid for it. The charter is null & void the minute I leave the program. They would not be able to put another instructor in my place & still say "we belong to the organization."

Does it seem reasonable that they would make such a request? It does not to me. Am I off-base on this?


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## Kacey (Aug 16, 2007)

Well, if they paid your fees, and you are leaving before the fee period is up, then I would think they would be within their rights to ask you to repay the remainder of the fee back, as they are no longer sponsoring your charter.  I see no reason why they should pay your organization fees if you are no longer there - which is what they seem to be saying - so they either want you to reimburse them for moneys already paid, in which case they will release your documentation to you (which they paid for), or you will have to obtain new documention.

For example, say the fee was $100/year, which they paid on Jan. 1.  You left on Aug. 1, with 1/3 of the charter period remaining.  So I would see no problem with them requesting that you repay them 1/3 ($33) of the organization fee, as you will no longer be in their facility, and they are, therefore, no longer sponsoring you.


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## IcemanSK (Aug 16, 2007)

Kacey said:


> Well, if they paid your fees, and you are leaving before the fee period is up, then I would think they would be within their rights to ask you to repay the remainder of the fee back, as they are no longer sponsoring your charter. I see no reason why they should pay your organization fees if you are no longer there - which is what they seem to be saying - so they either want you to reimburse them for moneys already paid, in which case they will release your documentation to you (which they paid for), or you will have to obtain new documention.
> 
> For example, say the fee was $100/year, which they paid on Jan. 1. You left on Aug. 1, with 1/3 of the charter period remaining. So I would see no problem with them requesting that you repay them 1/3 ($33) of the organization fee, as you will no longer be in their facility, and they are, therefore, no longer sponsoring you.


 
I see what you are saying, Kacey. I'll have to think on that. The difficultly that I have with their request is twofold. 1) I gave them an alternative to allow me to run the program with them & they were'nt interested. 2) The dollar amount for the second year of my program was 10% of the first year. They are considering charging me for the cost of both years. This seems to be out of line.


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## Kacey (Aug 16, 2007)

IcemanSK said:


> I see what you are saying, Kacey. I'll have to think on that. The difficultly that I have with their request is twofold. 1) I gave them an alternative to allow me to run the program with them & they were'nt interested. 2) The dollar amount for the second year of my program was 10% of the first year. They are considering charging me for the cost of both years. This seems to be out of line.



Ah... I thought they wanted a prorated amount back, which seemed reasonable to me.  If they want a full refund, I agree that that is a problem.


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## IcemanSK (Aug 16, 2007)

Kacey said:


> Ah... I thought they wanted a prorated amount back, which seemed reasonable to me. If they want a full refund, I agree that that is a problem.


 
Well, the way it was put was, "we want a prorated amounted for the 2 years combined."


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## FieldDiscipline (Aug 18, 2007)

Hi Iceman. Have you signed a contract to this effect?

I agree with Kacey's take on this.  However as you have tried all reasonable ways of continuing to run your class there...  

Remind me why you cant run the class with them at another time pls?


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## ArmorOfGod (Aug 18, 2007)

Not to redirect the subject, but are you going to continue your class elsewhere?

AoG


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## jks9199 (Aug 18, 2007)

Covering the two years is a little much, in my opinion.  The first year was "used up"; are they going to ask you to reimburse them for last year's lights, too?  I could see this year's...


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## IcemanSK (Aug 18, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> Covering the two years is a little much, in my opinion. The first year was "used up"; are they going to ask you to reimburse them for last year's lights, too? *I could see this year's*...


 
I could as well. I would be willing to pay a prorated amount for this year. 2 years is outrageous. 

I do intend on teaching again. The Charter that I got through the Center was for a non-profit school. If I continue as a non-profit school, I could use it. If I run a comercial school, I'd need a different Charter. The thing that bugged me the most was the sports coordinator wanted to charge me a prorated amount for the 2 years. And said, "That was a lot of money we spent on that." But, as was mentioned above, it was last year's money. 

Here's an interesting thing I discovered. My program cost the Center $1190 (Including everything they paid for) over 2 years! (That's the amount after they took in fees.) That kept 120 kids occupied for 1140 hours. For the karate program the Center spent $3000 for 8 kids & 3 staff to go to one tournament in February. 

When I teach again, I will get a new Charter & pay for it myself. 

This whole thing really adds insult to injury for me. I knew I left them in a tough spot when I got another job. It left them no time to change the Fall schedule to accomdate my ability to teach. I reminded them of an alternative that they used to employ. The karate program started out at an off-site parks building. It would be an ideal place, as it was for the karate program for several years. I got a quick, "No" to that idea. The hard part is, these aren't the burecrats from the City coming up with these things. These are the same people who encouraged me to run this program in the 1st place. They see me daily & we know each other well. I can't help but feel as if they were angry & just cut ties with me.

Sorry, I'm venting.


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## FieldDiscipline (Aug 19, 2007)

IcemanSK said:


> I can't help but feel as if they were angry & just cut ties with me.



It does maybe look that way.


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## jks9199 (Aug 19, 2007)

If the offsite location worked for the karate class, and it's still available, but people at the center are causing you problems...

Can you leapfrog them?  Send a letter or memo to someone higher up.  Keep it polite, but along the lines of "I'd love to continue, would this be possible?"  DON'T mention names, don't mention anything like "I tried and they're mad/won't work with me/etc."

Sometimes, when the intermediates are the problem -- you can get it to rain down from above...


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## IcemanSK (Aug 19, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> If the offsite location worked for the karate class, and it's still available, but people at the center are causing you problems...
> 
> Can you leapfrog them? Send a letter or memo to someone higher up. Keep it polite, but along the lines of "I'd love to continue, would this be possible?" DON'T mention names, don't mention anything like "I tried and they're mad/won't work with me/etc."
> 
> Sometimes, when the intermediates are the problem -- you can get it to rain down from above...


 
Yes, I could talk to the higher ups. Here's the issue. The higher ups don't have a clue as to who I am. The higher ups will say, "you need to talk to lower level folks." The lower level folks (who were my friends) could have made this happen with one phone call. If I were to try going over their heads, I'd still be running a program against the wishes of Center staff who told me "no". I'd never get anything done if I was now there because their bosses said I could. 

At this point, going elsewhere seems much more palitable. The City & Center need to be in the past.


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## FieldDiscipline (Aug 20, 2007)

IcemanSK said:


> The City & Center need to be in the past.



Unless its gonna cost you a lot of money, then you could just mark time at the centre against their wishes while the charter runs out...


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## IcemanSK (Aug 20, 2007)

FieldDiscipline said:


> Unless its gonna cost you a lot of money, then you could just mark time at the centre against their wishes while the charter runs out...


 
I'm going to speak with my instructor (the man who gave me the Charter) & ask for his thoughts. 

As far as teaching at the Center against their wishes. It would take longer than the 4 months left in the Charter to make that happen. It would get too ugly & not worth my emotional investment.

The parents of my students came to me & asked if they could talk to the powers that be. I told them, sure. If they can pursuade them, great!


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## Catalyst (Aug 20, 2007)

Hi Iceman,

Just some thoughts

1.)  If you're dealing with a City program, are there any elected officials like Mayor, Councilmen, Councilwomen, etc. that the parents could talk to?
It's one thing for a parent to try and talk with an appointed bureaucrat like a Parks & Recreation Director.  It can be a totally different scenario if 120 parents contact elected officials.  Elected officials rely on votes to keep their jobs, and concerned parents can have some leverage (especially 120 of them).

2.)  Maybe present the issue to the elected leaders as 120 children losing a very valuable program that the elected leaders could save (for minimal cost) by allowing you to use the off-site parks building.  They would be spending pennies to invest in the future of the community, our youth.

I'm sure you've already considered these, but thought I would throw them out.


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## FieldDiscipline (Aug 20, 2007)

Catalyst said:


> 2.)  Maybe present the issue to the elected leaders as 120 children losing a very valuable program that the elected leaders could save (for minimal cost) by allowing you to use the off-site parks building.  They would be spending pennies to invest in the future of the community, our youth.



A good way forward.

Also given that (if I've read this right) you've used 20 months of a 24 month charter, then I'd offer to pay them four 24ths of the cost.  If that makes sense :uhohh:


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