# A few examples of Pin Sun Wing Chun



## KPM (Aug 30, 2014)

Someone asked about videos of Pin Sun on another thread.There isn&#8217;t a lot out there, and unfortunately a lot of what is out there isn&#8217;t very good.I haven&#8217;t put up any of my own videos yet.  But here are some of the better examples:

A young Fung Keung from several years back. He is the late Fung Chun&#8217;s son.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qlfeMH2oBg&list=PL58D1A558BA6A9E37
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYhJn9OfeBs&list=PL58D1A558BA6A9E37

Some of the 2 Man drills strung together by students in Ku Lo village:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQ9A1UWsqPc

Jim Roselando&#8217;s group doing some training in Boston:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKc1cQRTPo0

A couple of the 2 Man sets demo&#8217;d by Jim and Frank:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XjTpWkHjVc&list=UUhD5SsbC-SHMaUTKbSbTvSQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKjiOBtX_k4&list=UUhD5SsbC-SHMaUTKbSbTvSQ


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## Kwan Sau (Aug 30, 2014)

Hmmm; not my cup o' tea...but thanks for posting KPM. Interesting to see all the various flavors of WC out there.


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## geezer (Aug 31, 2014)

Interesting. One thing I noticed was the different chi-sau platform used in the second clip --sort of a circling hand movement rather than the more common bong-tan rolling movement. As you know, I practice in the Yip Man lineage (an LT/ WT off-shoot) In our organization, more advanced practitioners also train chi-sau from a "wun-sau" or circling hand platform similar to this, except the movements are more compact. I don't know if this is common with other Yip Man WC, but I find it to be a useful variant.


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## Kwan Sau (Aug 31, 2014)

geezer said:


> ...practitioners also train chi-sau from a "wun-sau" or circling hand platform similar to this, except the movements are more compact. I don't know if this is common with other Yip Man WC, but I find it to be a useful variant.



What is a "wun-sau" Geezer? 
Are you referring to running the hand during chi sau?


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## geezer (Aug 31, 2014)

Kwan Sau said:


> What is a "wun-sau" Geezer?
> Are you referring to running the hand during chi sau?



Honest answer? Heck if I know. I don't speak Chinese (any dialect), but just muddle along like any other gwai-lo trying to master this crazy WC thing.   

In a general sense, I've heard the term "wun-sau" or "woon-sao"  used to describe the circling or "huen sau" changes from outside to inside gate in rolling arms or "poon sau". Many years ago, my old Chinese sifu occasionally used the term  "jeep-sau" or "running" to describe circling to let an opponent's hands  pass by in any direction, vertically or horizontally.

Now the specific "wun-sau" chi-sau platform I referred to above uses alternating outside to inside changes in response to your opponent's _outward_ arm-pressure, or when your opponent's force deviates off center to the outside. You basically just circle your wrist and let his arm pass under your bridge. Significantly,you do not try to to move his arm, but to just _let it go_. 

In this sense I think the term is the same as the term "running hands", but the specific drill may not be identical. This is a "platform" or continual movement cycle like poon sau from which various attacks and counters may be performed.

Now while figuring our how to answer this, I came across the following Youtube clip from a totally different group and sifu. They call this Jip sau. I call it rubbish. Is it just me, or is the sifu-guy on the right totally losing stick and disengaging his bridge every time he circles his left hand?






_Lat sau jik chung._ Everytime he loses stick, the woman on the left should hit him!


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## Danny T (Aug 31, 2014)

geezer said:


> Now while figuring our how to answer this, I came across the following Youtube clip from a totally different group and sifu. They call this Jip sau. I call it rubbish. Is it just me, or is the sifu-guy on the right totally losing stick and disengaging his bridge every time he circles his left hand?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hmm!! I'll just say this would not be an acceptable manner of practice for the results we are looking for.


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## K-man (Aug 31, 2014)

geezer said:


> Honest answer? Heck if I know. I don't speak Chinese (any dialect), but just muddle along like any other gwai-lo trying to master this crazy WC thing.
> 
> In a general sense, I've heard the term "wun-sau" or "woon-sao"  used to describe the circling or "huen sau" changes from outside to inside gate in rolling arms or "poon sau". Many years ago, my old Chinese sifu occasionally used the term  "jeep-sau" or "running" to describe circling to let an opponent's hands  pass by in any direction, vertically or horizontally.
> 
> ...


Interesting to watch (and take this from someone who has never practised WC), the woman has no chance to hit him because her shoulders are totally locked up with tension. As a result there is no way she could react to release and strike before his hand has circled. I practise a form of sticky hands with no tension and yes, if he did that to me, he would be hit.
:asian:


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## mook jong man (Sep 1, 2014)

Kwan Sau said:


> What is a "wun-sau" Geezer?
> Are you referring to running the hand during chi sau?



It comes directly before a two-sau and a three sau.


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## BPWT (Sep 1, 2014)

geezer said:


> I came across the following Youtube clip from a totally different group and sifu. They call this Jip sau. I call it rubbish. Is it just me, or is the sifu-guy on the right totally losing stick and disengaging his bridge every time he circles his left hand?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Interesting clip . In light of the guy breaking bridge contact and the female training partner not attacking on loss of contact (so no _Lat Sau Jik Chung_), I wonder what the goal of their Poon Sau is. 

Does anyone here train Moy Yat lineage WCK?


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## mook jong man (Sep 1, 2014)

geezer said:


> Honest answer? Heck if I know. I don't speak Chinese (any dialect), but just muddle along like any other gwai-lo trying to master this crazy WC thing.
> 
> In a general sense, I've heard the term "wun-sau" or "woon-sao"  used to describe the circling or "huen sau" changes from outside to inside gate in rolling arms or "poon sau". Many years ago, my old Chinese sifu occasionally used the term  "jeep-sau" or "running" to describe circling to let an opponent's hands  pass by in any direction, vertically or horizontally.
> 
> ...



Apart from being tense as hell , and leaving a gap big enough to drive a Mac truck through each time he switches.
Their angles are way too extended , they don't have circles anymore they have bloody rectangles.

They also have a bit of that slouch thing going on that KPM was on about the other day.
Its garbage.

Probably get someone on here in a minute saying "That's my Sifu and his skill is fantastic and why don't you come and test him out blah blah blah........


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 1, 2014)

KPM said:


>


In this clip, we can see:

- wrist grab and arm pulling at 0.11, 0.21, 1.09.
- arm wrap and single neck tie at 0.17.
- front cut take down at 0.50, 0.59.
- arm tucking followed by arm puling at 1.04.
- neck pulling at 1.04.

Why don't we see these kind of moves in "&#33865;&#38382; Yeh Wen's" lineage?


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## Kwan Sau (Sep 1, 2014)

geezer said:


> In a general sense, I've heard the term "wun-sau" or "woon-sao"  used to describe the circling or "huen sau" changes from outside to inside gate in rolling arms or "poon sau". Now the specific "wun-sau" chi-sau platform I referred to above uses alternating outside to inside changes in response to your opponent's _outward_ arm-pressure, or when your opponent's force deviates off center to the outside. You basically just circle your wrist and let his arm pass under your bridge. Significantly,you do not try to to move his arm, but to just _let it go_.
> 
> In this sense I think the term is the same as the term "running hands", but the specific drill may not be identical. This is a "platform" or continual movement cycle like poon sau from which various attacks and counters may be performed.
> 
> ...



Ok, thanks Geezer. Yeah, that's what I figured that term meant. 
Now, as to that video...holy crap that is just weird! That 'switch' (or whatever you want to call it) is IMO a direct violation of basic WC principles. Their range/distance is way off also. On second thought...I'd love to chi sau that dude! hahaha... :lfao:


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## Kwan Sau (Sep 1, 2014)

mook jong man said:


> It comes directly before a two-sau and a three sau.



Now that is funny! hahaha
:boing2:


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## mook jong man (Sep 1, 2014)

Kwan Sau said:


> Ok, thanks Geezer. Yeah, that's what I figured that term meant.
> Now, as to that video...holy crap that is just weird! That 'switch' (or whatever you want to call it) is IMO a direct violation of basic WC principles. Their range/distance is way off also. On second thought...I'd love to chi sau that dude! hahaha... :lfao:



Doesn't anybody test "Forward Force " in these schools ?

One of the first things that would happen when you started rolling with a senior in our lineage , is that they would test your forward force by randomly pulling one or both of their arms away to see if you could hit through on loss of contact.

Proper forward force keeps the whole thing honest , and it would certainly keep a lot of these fanciful rolling variations from ever being developed.


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## KPM (Sep 1, 2014)

*Now the specific "wun-sau" chi-sau platform I referred to above uses alternating outside to inside changes in response to your opponent's outward arm-pressure, or when your opponent's force deviates off center to the outside. You basically just circle your wrist and let his arm pass under your bridge. Significantly,you do not try to to move his arm, but to just let it go. 

*--I'm not quite sure, but maybe you are referring to a rolling platform I like to call the "Huen Sau Chi Sau."  This is a very generic rolling you see in a lot of southern systems.  In fact, I had a friend who was a 6th degree black belt in Kenpo and he was familiar with this type of rolling.   So when we trained together we could Chi Sau.  It was very interesting!  Anyway, you simply cross wrists/lower forearms, one on the outside and one on the inside, and then make complete circles moving from the elbows without losing contact. There is no Bong or Tan or any specific technique other than the rolling transition which is essentially a Huen Sau.  You use this to establish contact and then just do free movement from there.


* Now while figuring our how to answer this, I came across the following Youtube clip from a totally different group and sifu. They call this Jip sau. I call it rubbish. Is it just me, or is the sifu-guy on the right totally losing stick and disengaging his bridge every time he circles his left hand?






Lat sau jik chung. Everytime he loses stick, the woman on the left should hit him!

*--I agree!  I've seen this in the Moy Yat lineage before.  I think it was on one of Benny Meng's videos.   I'll also point out that this guy gives us another good example of the "Wing Chun Slouch"!  Look how he leans back at the waist and then "hunches" over to compensate.


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## Kwan Sau (Sep 1, 2014)

mook jong man said:


> Doesn't anybody test "Forward Force " in these schools ?



Apparently they don't test forward pressure in Moy Yat schools(???)


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## Kwan Sau (Sep 1, 2014)

KPM said:


> --I'm not quite sure, but maybe you are referring to a rolling platform I like to call the "Huen Sau Chi Sau."  This is a very generic rolling you see in a lot of southern systems.  In fact, I had a friend who was a 6th degree black belt in Kenpo and he was familiar with this type of rolling.   So when we trained together we could Chi Sau.  It was very interesting!  Anyway, you simply cross wrists/lower forearms, one on the outside and one on the inside, and then make complete circles moving from the elbows without losing contact. There is no Bong or Tan or any specific technique other than the rolling transition which is essentially a Huen Sau.  You use this to establish contact and then just do free movement from there.



Hi KPM. Yeah, I'm familiar with that kenpo thing from years ago. I don't think that is what Geezer is getting at. I guess the big question to Geezer is: is there a defined Bong, Tan, etc in this wun-sau you are describing?


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## KPM (Sep 1, 2014)

Kwan Sau said:


> Apparently they don't test forward pressure in Moy Yat schools(???)



In their defense, if I am remembering Benny Meng's video correctly, this is just one drill that they do to teach quickly regaining the line.  This is not their standard way of doing the Ip Man rolling, or of transitioning from side to side.


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## Vajramusti (Sep 1, 2014)

Kwan Sau said:


> Apparently they don't test forward pressure in Moy Yat schools(???)


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There is a lot to Ip Man chi sao-most of Ip Man "students" did not get to do much chi sao with Ip Man himself.


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## futsaowingchun (Sep 1, 2014)

KPM said:


> In their defense, if I am remembering Benny Meng's video correctly, this is just one drill that they do to teach quickly regaining the line.  This is not their standard way of doing the Ip Man rolling, or of transitioning from side to side.



Iwas a student of Moy Yat back in the early 80's they do test for structure or forward pressure.


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