# A kata/form tip for beginning students



## Bill Mattocks (Dec 19, 2018)

This applies only if you are a student of a martial art form that practices kata, forms, or something resembling that.

The tip is, don't stop practicing an old kata just because you've moved on to learning a new one.  In many schools, and definitely where I train, knowing all the katas that have been taught is required.

More than once, I've asked a student what kata they are working on, they tell me X and I tell them to do Y kata, one they had done one or two belt promotions previously.  The dropped jaws and blank stares are priceless.

The kata are taught for a reason, and it's not like algebra which you will never use again in your life once you've passed the course (well, I didn't anyway).  The kata contain within them techniques which are obvious and explained (usually) and many more which you will have to become much more proficient as a martial artist to understand or 'see', and eventually, techniques will appear which no one taught you, you simply began to see them as being there.  The techniques were always there; you are what changed.

But you will miss all that if you learn kata A, then move on to kata B and never come back to practice A again.


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## pdg (Dec 19, 2018)

Bill Mattocks said:


> it's not like algebra which you will never use again in your life once you've passed the course



I use algebra all the time and I've never taken a dedicated course


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## Plin (Dec 19, 2018)

This lesson was driven home for me during our testing the other night. Monday was for novice testing, so yellow stripe, yellow belt, and green stripe. But we also had a young man who is a red belt working on black belt preliminaries, so he was required to go through the testing with everyone in the lower levels to demonstrate proficiency at all the fundamentals, including patterns.

My understanding is that he was to participate in each subsequent night of testing as well, up to and through his current level. It was impressive to watch him do them all flawlessly.


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## pdg (Dec 19, 2018)

Plin said:


> This lesson was driven home for me during our testing the other night. Monday was for novice testing, so yellow stripe, yellow belt, and green stripe. But we also had a young man who is a red belt working on black belt preliminaries, so he was required to go through the testing with everyone in the lower levels to demonstrate proficiency at all the fundamentals, including patterns.
> 
> My understanding is that he was to participate in each subsequent night of testing as well, up to and through his current level. It was impressive to watch him do them all flawlessly.



Ours is a small school, so everyone (except juniors, the younger kids) tests at the same time for colour belts.

Everyone starts together, then each grade finishes their section of testing while higher belts remain.

My next test will be for 1st kup, so I'll have to do every grade test back to back...


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## Bill Mattocks (Dec 19, 2018)

Plin said:


> This lesson was driven home for me during our testing the other night. Monday was for novice testing, so yellow stripe, yellow belt, and green stripe. But we also had a young man who is a red belt working on black belt preliminaries, so he was required to go through the testing with everyone in the lower levels to demonstrate proficiency at all the fundamentals, including patterns.
> 
> My understanding is that he was to participate in each subsequent night of testing as well, up to and through his current level. It was impressive to watch him do them all flawlessly.



Here's another tip, although not every dojo does it.  Ours has one wall with a very large mirror.  We typically face it when doing kata.  Practice your kata/forms facing other directions.  This is harder than you might think; we use internal reference points to be certain of our directions.  I have been asked, at times, to do my kata facing another direction.  I've been asked to do it with a blindfold on.  Results were less than acceptable, but I learned to add that to the list of things I practice regularly.  

If you really want to get crazy, practice doing the inverse of the kata - stepping and punching and blocking with the hand opposite the one you normally use for each movement.  Practice reverse breathing - breathe out where you would normally breathe in, and vice-versa.  Practice the kata backwards, from the bow out to the bow in.  You might be overwhelmed so take your time, but even experienced students find it difficult - more importantly, they sometimes find applications that they didn't realize were there.


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## Bill Mattocks (Dec 19, 2018)

pdg said:


> Ours is a small school, so everyone (except juniors, the younger kids) tests at the same time for colour belts.
> 
> Everyone starts together, then each grade finishes their section of testing while higher belts remain.
> 
> My next test will be for 1st kup, so I'll have to do every grade test back to back...



Try them out of sequence some time.  Just have someone call our a random form or kata and do that rather than 'working the ladder' of kata from beginning to ending.


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## pdg (Dec 19, 2018)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Try them out of sequence some time.  Just have someone call our a random form or kata and do that rather than 'working the ladder' of kata from beginning to ending.



That's a normal thing tbh - instructor calls a number, or an amount of moves, or a name, or a piece of the trivia associated with a pattern.


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## punisher73 (Dec 19, 2018)

Very good tip.  I think this comes from being "belt focused" or "promotion focused" instead of process/journey focus.  

In ALL arts, especially karate, the kata were selected and retained for a specific purpose to give specific tools and lessons to the student.  

One of the things my instructor is fond of pointing out is that you may have knowledge of a form/kata, but do you really KNOW that form/kata.  He will give the example of having your car breakdown and you knowing immediately what friend you would call to help you out with that.  In a given scenario or situation, you KNOW what kata will come forward that is designed to handle that type of situation.  Practicing it forward, backward, opposite side, even down to show me the 10-15th movements.  It's not about performance, it is intricately understanding all of the facets to the form/katas personality.  Each kata SHOULD have a different bit of a feel to it that reveals itself to you the more you study it.  For example, Chinto is very different than Seiuchin and is very different than Wansu.  How do you move, flow and use your body?  While there are certain mechanics and ways of performing the techniques, there is still the "art" that must be explored and revealed and not merely memorized.


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## Yokozuna514 (Dec 19, 2018)

Osu, great tips.   Kyokushin is not known for being kata-centric and we are not BUT I enjoy doing katas so I teach a special class once a week doing those exact things.    We practice katas in their standard format, gyaku (opposite direction), tate (straight pattern), ura (movements in reverse) and tate ura (movements in reverse and in a straight pattern).   Once you can do all the katas in each of these formats, you can begin to understand what katas can teach you.  Note, we only do these variations with the Taikyoko and Pinan katas.


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## pgsmith (Dec 19, 2018)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I've been asked to do it with a blindfold on. Results were less than acceptable, but I learned to add that to the list of things I practice regularly.



  I regularly have the more advanced folks perform a kata or two with their eyes closed. It can be an eye opener for sure!


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 19, 2018)

Bill Mattocks said:


> The tip is, don't stop practicing an old kata just because you've moved on to learning a new one.  In many schools, and definitely where I train, knowing all the katas that have been taught is required.



Our students know that when they test, they _*will*_ be asked to perform at least one of their lower forms, and quite possibly more. Even all of them.



> More than once, I've asked a student what kata they are working on, they tell me X and I tell them to do Y kata, one they had done one or two belt promotions previously.  The dropped jaws and blank stares are priceless.



This doesn't happen with us, because everybody routinely practices lower forms. Typically, when we're doing forms in class, we work our way through the  forms in order. If we've moved beyond your highest form, you stay on whatever your highest form is. Or, if I know you're having issues with a particular form, I'll tell you to work on that one.



> The kata are taught for a reason, and it's not like algebra which you will never use again in your life once you've passed the course (well, I didn't anyway).



I use algebra every single day...



> The kata contain within them techniques which are obvious and explained (usually) and many more which you will have to become much more proficient as a martial artist to understand or 'see', and eventually, techniques will appear which no one taught you, you simply began to see them as being there.  The techniques were always there; you are what changed.
> 
> But you will miss all that if you learn kata A, then move on to kata B and never come back to practice A again.



Agree completely.
Another tip. I tell students who're working on a new form that sometimes the best way to improve your form is to stop practicing it.
What I mean is this: Most forms include some new material as well as some that the student already knows. If you're struggling with the form, it's most likely the new material that is the stumbling block. So stop practicing the form. Just practice the specific series of movements that's giving you fits. Then go back and do the form.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 19, 2018)

pdg said:


> I use algebra all the time and I've never taken a dedicated course


Maybe that's the secret


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## Buka (Dec 19, 2018)

pgsmith said:


> I regularly have the more advanced folks perform a kata or two with their eyes closed. It can be an eye opener for sure!



I see what you did there.


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## CB Jones (Dec 19, 2018)

Buka said:


> I see what you did there.



Buka in another kata thread.......we gonna make you a kata guy before it’s all over.


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## wab25 (Dec 19, 2018)

All great stuff here. My add would be that learning a kata / form is more than memorizing the order of the moves to do. Once you can do the kata / form without thinking about what comes next... you are now ready to begin studying the kata / form. If you are thinking about what comes next, you cannot be focused on what you are doing now. Once you start focusing on what you are doing now... there is a lot to learn and improve in kata / form.

I see way too many people memorize the order of the moves and then want to move on to memorize another set of moves... You don't get much that way, then one day you wonder: what did I just learn? Not much.


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## JR 137 (Dec 19, 2018)

I like the different spins on kata. It changes things up. Sure, it’s more performance based than application based, but so what IMO. It’s ok to have fun with it.

Things we somewhat regularly do...
Eyes closed. I’ve heard students testing for dan ranks need to bring a blindfold with them, for this purpose and other standardized stuff.

Facing different directions. Doing a kata facing a different direction than the norm definitely messes with you at first. It shouldn’t, but it does.

Coming from Kyokushin, we do “Ura kata.” @Yokazuna514 mentioned ura kata, but it sounds different than what I’ve always known ura kata to be in Kyokushin and offshoots - a 360 degree spin before every step forward. Sounds simple enough until you actually do it.

“San waza” - each each technique is done 3 times, alternating hands; you only take the one step. So taikyoku 1 - step left into zenkutsu dachi/forward leaning stance, low block 3 times alternating left-right-left. Step forward zenkutsu dachi, 3 middle punches alternating r-l-r...

“Miji hajime” - Start to the right. Instead of starting by turning to the left as most kata do, you start stepping to the right. Basically a mirror image of the kata. All techniques and the forward foot are reversed, which gets interesting.


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## dvcochran (Dec 19, 2018)

Bill Mattocks said:


> This applies only if you are a student of a martial art form that practices kata, forms, or something resembling that.
> 
> The tip is, don't stop practicing an old kata just because you've moved on to learning a new one.  In many schools, and definitely where I train, knowing all the katas that have been taught is required.
> 
> ...


Hey!, I use algebra all the time! haha  Very good advise. I always do this if I work with someone I am not familiar with or someone I know is struggling with forms. My GM often says you learn everything in the first three Kicho forms. The older I get the more I understand his statement.


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## _Simon_ (Dec 20, 2018)

Well said Bill . I seriously learn something new every time I do Taikyoku Ichi... and always find something I can work on better.





JR 137 said:


> I like the different spins on kata. It changes things up. Sure, it’s more performance based than application based, but so what IMO. It’s ok to have fun with it.
> 
> Things we somewhat regularly do...
> Eyes closed. I’ve heard students testing for dan ranks need to bring a blindfold with them, for this purpose and other standardized stuff.
> ...


Ahhh yes the good ol ura katas haha. Yep we did those for all katas, I actually got quite good at the 360° spin. Was awkward at first but it really taught good control, balance, and ability to transition into that next stance no matter where you were (after a spin). Tell ya what, it made a big difference which dojo floor you did them on... ripped up me toes on some!

Am also glad it was taught to us as purely a training method, and NOT to have any bunkai (can you imagine that!)


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## Yokozuna514 (Dec 20, 2018)

_Simon_ said:


> Well said Bill . I seriously learn something new every time I do Taikyoku Ichi... and always find something I can work on better.Ahhh yes the good ol ura katas haha. Yep we did those for all katas, I actually got quite good at the 360° spin. Was awkward at first but it really taught good control, balance, and ability to transition into that next stance no matter where you were (after a spin). Tell ya what, it made a big difference which dojo floor you did them on... ripped up me toes on some!
> 
> Am also glad it was taught to us as purely a training method, and NOT to have any bunkai (can you imagine that!)


Osu, very interesting that both you and JR137 refer to ura as doing a '360 degree spin'.   I know it looks like that but it is very difficult to actually spin (move in circular motion) repeatedly and maintain a good stance.   We actually teach ura differently.  We break it down into a transition stance so the movement is more linear.  There are no longer centrifugal forces that pull your balance off and I think you can move more rapidly and consistently this way.


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## oftheherd1 (Dec 20, 2018)

Bill Mattocks said:


> This applies only if you are a student of a martial art form that practices kata, forms, or something resembling that.
> 
> The tip is, don't stop practicing an old kata just because you've moved on to learning a new one.  In many schools, and definitely where I train, knowing all the katas that have been taught is required.
> 
> ...



As always Bill, a great and well articulated post.

I wish when I was studying TKD we had done that and I had stayed with it long enough to have benefited from doing that.


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## Bill Mattocks (Dec 20, 2018)

Yokazuna514 said:


> Osu, very interesting that both you and JR137 refer to ura as doing a '360 degree spin'.   I know it looks like that but it is very difficult to actually spin (move in circular motion) repeatedly and maintain a good stance.   We actually teach ura differently.  We break it down into a transition stance so the movement is more linear.  There are no longer centrifugal forces that pull your balance off and I think you can move more rapidly and consistently this way.



Sounds like you are describing one of the stance transitions in our Wansu.  We turn 180 degrees to the rear to address an incoming attack, but 'in place' so we don't move off the fight line, and without any spinning.  Just swap feet around a bit.


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## _Simon_ (Dec 20, 2018)

Yokazuna514 said:


> Osu, very interesting that both you and JR137 refer to ura as doing a '360 degree spin'.   I know it looks like that but it is very difficult to actually spin (move in circular motion) repeatedly and maintain a good stance.   We actually teach ura differently.  We break it down into a transition stance so the movement is more linear.  There are no longer centrifugal forces that pull your balance off and I think you can move more rapidly and consistently this way.



Ah yep we're taught it like that too. Less of a spin and more of a two straight lines focus.

Eg moving forward in zenkutsu dachi, the back foot comes forward in a straight line while your body rotates, then that foot simply comes forward in a straight line. And yeah I agree it's much easier to keep your balance this way! I just said spin just as a default I guess hehe


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 20, 2018)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Here's another tip, although not every dojo does it.  Ours has one wall with a very large mirror.  We typically face it when doing kata.  Practice your kata/forms facing other directions.  This is harder than you might think; we use internal reference points to be certain of our directions.  I have been asked, at times, to do my kata facing another direction.  I've been asked to do it with a blindfold on.  Results were less than acceptable, but I learned to add that to the list of things I practice regularly.
> 
> If you really want to get crazy, practice doing the inverse of the kata - stepping and punching and blocking with the hand opposite the one you normally use for each movement.  Practice reverse breathing - breathe out where you would normally breathe in, and vice-versa.  Practice the kata backwards, from the bow out to the bow in.  You might be overwhelmed so take your time, but even experienced students find it difficult - more importantly, they sometimes find applications that they didn't realize were there.


This is huge. It’s amazing how hard it is to do the kata reversed or starting facing a different direction in the normal space.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 20, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> This is huge. It’s amazing how hard it is to do the kata reversed or starting facing a different direction in the normal space.



Very true. One of the other things we routinely do is turn the class 90 or 180 degrees and then do forms. Sometimes, we'll get 4 people of the same rank, stand them back to back, and have them all do the form at once, in a different direction. The lesson being: mind your own business. If you look at any of the others, you *will* screw up.


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## JR 137 (Dec 20, 2018)

@Yokazuna514 and @_Simon_ 

Ura kata is actually part of our formal curriculum. Brown belt is responsible for Taikyoku 1 & 2 ura, and dan ranks up to I believe sandan or possibly yondan have progressively more difficult ones. I’ve done Pinan 1-3 and Gekisai Dai, and I’ve seen Tsuki-No done. There’s probably a few more. 

We’ve got two acceptable ways to do them:
1. You can keep the back leg out like it is normally and do a huge spin, like the 270 degree spin in Taikyoku katas, only you to the complete 360

2. You can bend the back leg like the front leg, and turn the 360 degrees. You’re supposed to keep your head at the same level instead of bobbing up and down by coming up straight and back down into your stance. That’s a shorter way to do it and it just feels right to me. Most of us do it that way.

Both ways are kind of hard to describe. I don’t know of any good videos to link to.

I’m really not a fan of the ura katas beyond doing them in the dojo every now and then as a way to change it up. I don’t like them being formally in the syllabus, but it is what it is. I don’t think they’re really emphasized in testing, but I haven’t been through dan testing so I can’t say for certain. I think they’re probably there to make sure people are doing them and know how to do them, but people probably aren’t expected to do them to a high technical level like any other kata.


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## _Simon_ (Dec 20, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> Very true. One of the other things we routinely do is turn the class 90 or 180 degrees and then do forms. Sometimes, we'll get 4 people of the same rank, stand them back to back, and have them all do the form at once, in a different direction. The lesson being: mind your own business. If you look at any of the others, you *will* screw up.


Ah yep we've done this, a great exercise!


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## _Simon_ (Dec 20, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> @Yokazuna514 and @_Simon_
> 
> Ura kata is actually part of our formal curriculum. Brown belt is responsible for Taikyoku 1 & 2 ura, and dan ranks up to I believe sandan or possibly yondan have progressively more difficult ones. I’ve done Pinan 1-3 and Gekisai Dai, and I’ve seen Tsuki-No done. There’s probably a few more.
> 
> ...


Ah yep, they were a part of our syllabus too. The Pinans in ura were.... uuuuugh haha. Some moves it was just hard to know when to do the spin.. and in Pinan 3, even the very last move (that jump to the right) had an air spin too! Even the mae geris were changed to be ushiro mawashi geri instead of the 3x mae geris, just to suit the ura.






And yeah agreed, doesn't make sense to be a part of the syllabus, especially cos there are so many. We also had tate (straight-line version) versions that were in the syllabus too (these were a piece of cake compared to ura...)


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## JR 137 (Dec 21, 2018)

_Simon_ said:


> Ah yep, they were a part of our syllabus too. The Pinans in ura were.... uuuuugh haha. Some moves it was just hard to know when to do the spin.. and in Pinan 3, even the very last move (that jump to the right) had an air spin too! Even the mae geris were changed to be ushiro mawashi geri instead of the 3x mae geris, just to suit the ura.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


We don’t do it that way. We just do a 360 spin on forward steps. No back spin kick/ushiro mawashi geri, and no jumping spin.

So for that kata, we don’t spin on the opening turn to the left as it’s not a forward step; it’s a turn. We don’t spin on the 180 turn either. Pinan 3 is pretty easy to do in ura for us.

Pinan 2 is actually harder to figure out - is the slide into kiba dachi a forward step or not? We don’t spin. Burg then there’s the 45 degree steps at the top and bottom of the embussen. They’re not straight forward steps, but they’re not turns either. We spin on those. When going up the embussen, where you come up in musubi dachi, side kick to the back, then step forward and do shuto mawashi stow uke, when do you spin? We kick, spin, block. When coming back down the center there are counts where you do hand techniques before you step, and counts where you step after the hands. When the step is first, you spin first; when the hands are first, you do the hands, then spin.

All that messes with your head. Add all the spinning and dizziness, and the first several times you do it, it messes with your head. Pinan 2 is way harder to do in ura than 3 IMO. The part in 3 that confuses people in 3 is when you’d normally spin after the nukite and into kiba dachi with tetsui. People sometimes spin twice. I jokingly didn’t spin at all one time. My instructor asked why I didn’t spin - I told him the ura cancels out the actual spin that’s supposed to be there.

They can be fun to do, but I just don’t see the point in them formally being in the syllabus. But I’m not the boss, so I don’t make the rules.


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## _Simon_ (Dec 21, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> We don’t do it that way. We just do a 360 spin on forward steps. No back spin kick/ushiro mawashi geri, and no jumping spin.
> 
> So for that kata, we don’t spin on the opening turn to the left as it’s not a forward step; it’s a turn. We don’t spin on the 180 turn either. Pinan 3 is pretty easy to do in ura for us.
> 
> ...



That's fascinating, yeah you guys do it a little differently, and it makes sense why. It is hard to know when a spin is, as sometimes even if it's a 45° angle, there's still a step forwards in a sense... *brain meltdown*.

[QUOTE/]I jokingly didn’t spin at all one time. My instructor asked why I didn’t spin - I told him the ura cancels out the actual spin that’s supposed to be there.[/QUOTE]

HAHAHAHA that so deserves a round of applause, I love that so much, that got a good laugh XD


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## Yokozuna514 (Dec 21, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> We don’t do it that way. We just do a 360 spin on forward steps. No back spin kick/ushiro mawashi geri, and no jumping spin.
> 
> So for that kata, we don’t spin on the opening turn to the left as it’s not a forward step; it’s a turn. We don’t spin on the 180 turn either. Pinan 3 is pretty easy to do in ura for us.
> 
> ...





_Simon_ said:


> That's fascinating, yeah you guys do it a little differently, and it makes sense why. It is hard to know when a spin is, as sometimes even if it's a 45° angle, there's still a step forwards in a sense... *brain meltdown*.
> 
> [QUOTE/]I jokingly didn’t spin at all one time. My instructor asked why I didn’t spin - I told him the ura cancels out the actual spin that’s supposed to be there.



HAHAHAHA that so deserves a round of applause, I love that so much, that got a good laugh XD[/QUOTE]
All the Pinan katas done in ura except for Pinan Ichi begin with a 'spin'.  You prepare the block, 'spin', then finish the block in the correct stance.   Pinan Ichi begins with mae gedan barai in zenkutsu dachi so the ura comes into the second movement.  There are also peculiar differences in some of the Pinan katas when you do them in ura, that don't strictly follow the regular convention of the kata.   The ushiro mawashi in Pinan San ura is a perfect example but there are a few others as well.  

Ura, tate and ura/tate are not part of our formal syllabus but that doesn't mean we don't do them anyway  .   I had to do them all for my Shodan grading.   It took a good 1 hour to 1-1/2 hours to get through all the katas and their variations.  We also had to do Kyokushin no kata Tsuki Uke which I kind of like but it is not a kata that is widely done.   Same with Juji kata and the Kihon katas.   Let us also not forget the Sukogi katas.  Fortunately we didn't have to do those in ura or tate.  

Do you guys do Enshin Tensho ?


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## Yokozuna514 (Dec 21, 2018)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Sounds like you are describing one of the stance transitions in our Wansu.  We turn 180 degrees to the rear to address an incoming attack, but 'in place' so we don't move off the fight line, and without any spinning.  Just swap feet around a bit.


I would be interested in seeing this kata and the move you described.   It sounds so familiar but it would be nice to be sure.


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## Yokozuna514 (Dec 21, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> Very true. One of the other things we routinely do is turn the class 90 or 180 degrees and then do forms. Sometimes, we'll get 4 people of the same rank, stand them back to back, and have them all do the form at once, in a different direction. The lesson being: mind your own business. If you look at any of the others, you *will* screw up.


We do this as well.   It is a clear indication if a student really 'knows' the movements or is just following others.  Then again, it is pretty easy to see who is following others  but it let's the student know without you having to say so.


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## Bill Mattocks (Dec 21, 2018)

Yokazuna514 said:


> I would be interested in seeing this kata and the move you described.   It sounds so familiar but it would be nice to be sure.








Not my dojo but similar in how he is doing Wansu.  Look at 29 to 35 seconds in.  He does the famous 'dump' in Wansu, then sees an attacker coming from behind him.  He does not 'wheel' to face him, but instead turns 180 degrees in place to stay on the fight line, and attacks the incoming punch with a chop to the arm.


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## Yokozuna514 (Dec 21, 2018)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Not my dojo but similar in how he is doing Wansu.  Look at 29 to 35 seconds in.  He does the famous 'dump' in Wansu, then sees an attacker coming from behind him.  He does not 'wheel' to face him, but instead turns 180 degrees in place to stay on the fight line, and attacks the incoming punch with a chop to the arm.


Osu, thank you for sharing the video.  I have never seen that kata before.  I appreciate your comments about the turning 180 degrees but it is not exactly what 'ura' is in the sense of our discussion.


Bill Mattocks said:


> Sounds like you are describing one of the stance transitions in our Wansu. We turn 180 degrees to the rear to address an incoming attack, but 'in place' so we don't move off the fight line, and without any spinning. Just swap feet around a bit.



This is a video of Pinan Ichi in ura:  





Ura's main function, as I understand it, is to not only reinforce the movements of the standard kata but to add a different aspect of balance and control when moving.   Weight distribution on the foot is also important as the ability to move in ura is highly dependent on the weight being placed on chosoku instead of on the entire foot surface.  This emphasis on weight distribution assists in understanding how to turn properly when doing circular movements such as spinning back kicks.


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## _Simon_ (Dec 21, 2018)

Yokazuna514 said:


> All the Pinan katas done in ura except for Pinan Ichi begin with a 'spin'.  You prepare the block, 'spin', then finish the block in the correct stance.   Pinan Ichi begins with mae gedan barai in zenkutsu dachi so the ura comes into the second movement.  There are also peculiar differences in some of the Pinan katas when you do them in ura, that don't strictly follow the regular convention of the kata.   The ushiro mawashi in Pinan San ura is a perfect example but there are a few others as well.
> 
> Ura, tate and ura/tate are not part of our formal syllabus but that doesn't mean we don't do them anyway  .   I had to do them all for my Shodan grading.   It took a good 1 hour to 1-1/2 hours to get through all the katas and their variations.  We also had to do Kyokushin no kata Tsuki Uke which I kind of like but it is not a kata that is widely done.   Same with Juji kata and the Kihon katas.   Let us also not forget the Sukogi katas.  Fortunately we didn't have to do those in ura or tate.
> 
> Do you guys do Enshin Tensho ?



Very interesting... yeah I guess a few aspects of the kata have to change in order incorporate ura more efficiently.

Wow, your Shodan grading sounded fun . Havent heard of Kyokushin no kata Tsuki Uke, is it similar to Tsuki no kata? And yeah ours involved all Sokugu kata in ura and tate, didn't have the pleasure of experiencing them haha.

I've never heard of Enshin Tensho! Am curious, looked it up but couldn't find it anywhere at all.. just looked in my old syllabus and we have something called 'Enkei Tensho' at Sandan, but I have no idea what that is... multidirectional Tensho...?


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## _Simon_ (Dec 21, 2018)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Not my dojo but similar in how he is doing Wansu.  Look at 29 to 35 seconds in.  He does the famous 'dump' in Wansu, then sees an attacker coming from behind him.  He does not 'wheel' to face him, but instead turns 180 degrees in place to stay on the fight line, and attacks the incoming punch with a chop to the arm.


Really cool kata, loved it. Have always heard of Wansu but never seen it. The fellow's kiai sounds similar to mine haha :S


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## JR 137 (Dec 22, 2018)

Yokazuna514 said:


> Osu, thank you for sharing the video.  I have never seen that kata before.  I appreciate your comments about the turning 180 degrees but it is not exactly what 'ura' is in the sense of our discussion.
> 
> 
> This is a video of Pinan Ichi in ura:
> ...


The Pinan 1 Ura is exactly how we do ura kata. All spins were on steps forward, notably not on the first count where he stepped to his left and counts like that. And his spin is how I was describing mine - his feet come in closer rather than the back leg staying straight through the turn. 

What doesn’t make sense to me is why he spun on the opening move of Pinan 3, but not in Pinan 1.


----------



## hoshin1600 (Dec 23, 2018)

I don't want to offend or "trigger" anyone, so my apologies for the analogy but studying kata is like studying the Bible.  Many students do kata like reading a newspaper or magazine. You don't read the Bible like you read a newspaper. Both the Bible and kata are there to draw deep meaning from them. It shouldn't be something you do lightly or superficially. I mean you can, but it misses the point.  Someone in an earlier post called forms a " pattern" .  I am sure that is the way they were taught but to me that is all wrong. It is so much more. The value of the Bible is not found in its binding or how many pages or the quality of the paper. The pages are necessary to draw out the meaning just as linked motion is necessary to draw meaning from the form. To not understand that is "not seeing the forest from the trees"
I was told once "the Bible doesn't mean, what it says.....it means MORE than it says."
Kata is the same.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 23, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> I don't want to offend or "trigger" anyone, so my apologies for the analogy but studying kata is like studying the Bible.  Many students do kata like reading a newspaper or magazine. You don't read the Bible like you read a newspaper. Both the Bible and kata are there to draw deep meaning from them. It shouldn't be something you do lightly or superficially. I mean you can, but it misses the point.  Someone in an earlier post called forms a " pattern" .  I am sure that is the way they were taught but to me that is all wrong. It is so much more. The value of the Bible is not found in its binding or how many pages or the quality of the paper. The pages are necessary to draw out the meaning just as linked motion is necessary to draw meaning from the form. To not understand that is "not seeing the forest from the trees"
> I was told once "the Bible doesn't mean, what it says.....it means MORE than it says."
> Kata is the same.


This, as an absolute statement, presupposed that as the intent and purpose of forms. I have no doubt some forms were created with that approach in mind. I know with certainty that some were created for a more superficial purpose. 

Here’s the rub (to me): my original intent in creating a form only matters somewhat. If someone uses them for purposes I didn’t intend, that’s fine...so long as they don’t try to get from them something that’s not in there. If they cross that line, they are likely to get wonky results. Trying to understand hip throw via kata would be a big mistake, for instance; it’s not in there, nor are the set-up mechanics.


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## dvcochran (Dec 23, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> The Pinan 1 Ura is exactly how we do ura kata. All spins were on steps forward, notably not on the first count where he stepped to his left and counts like that. And his spin is how I was describing mine - his feet come in closer rather than the back leg staying straight through the turn.
> 
> What doesn’t make sense to me is why he spun on the opening move of Pinan 3, but not in Pinan 1.


Does he do the spins on the heel of the foot? Is that how you teach them? That would be different to our teaching. We also turn forward instead of to the back. Sonal blocks are done slightly different also. Good form.


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## JR 137 (Dec 23, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> I don't want to offend or "trigger" anyone, so my apologies for the analogy but studying kata is like studying the Bible.  Many students do kata like reading a newspaper or magazine. You don't read the Bible like you read a newspaper. Both the Bible and kata are there to draw deep meaning from them. It shouldn't be something you do lightly or superficially. I mean you can, but it misses the point.  Someone in an earlier post called forms a " pattern" .  I am sure that is the way they were taught but to me that is all wrong. It is so much more. The value of the Bible is not found in its binding or how many pages or the quality of the paper. The pages are necessary to draw out the meaning just as linked motion is necessary to draw meaning from the form. To not understand that is "not seeing the forest from the trees"
> I was told once "the Bible doesn't mean, what it says.....it means MORE than it says."
> Kata is the same.


Nothing wrong with your statement, at that what it is TO YOU.

I look at kata as the quintessential “art” of the martial arts. Take a work of art like a painting. Better yet, take possibly the most famous painting of all - the Mona Lisa...

Everyone who looks at it gets a different impression of what DaVinci intended. Some take a very superficial view, some take a very deep view. Some have analyzed the hell out of it, coming up with all these theories - She’s really a man, she’s pregnant, she’s his mother, etc. Then there’s Freud-like psychological theories for why he painted a man or his mother that way. Then there’s people who look at it and wonder what the fuss is all about.

Without looking it up and confirming things, I’ve read it’s been x-rayed and they’ve found at least one (I think more though) paintings under it that DaVinci covered up. People have their theories as to that, ranging from he didn’t like the others and re-used the wood (it’s painted on poplar, not canvas) to it’s all intentional code, conspiracy theories, etc.

People have replicated it, making those replications whimsical, serious copies, put them on the most inane things like cigarette lighters, etc. Some hold the painting like a work from a God, not to be messed with; while others view it as nothing more than some paint on a piece of wood.

Using your Bible reference, people interpret that differently too. People who hold it sacred use it in different ways and for different purposes in a sense. I priest/pastor/minister will read a relatively brief section and give an entire sermon around it. They don’t give a sermon based on the entire book and/or every other accepted book connected to it. All the other parts should be read and understood so that the part they’re focusing on has context and they’re not misinterpreting it though. Then there’s interpretation of the Bible. If there’s only one way to read and understand it, there’s only one church within Christianity without other denominations such as Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, et al. 

I look at kata as art because it can be interpreted in so many different ways. It can also be used in so many ways. It can be studied deeply, or it can be used just to pass a test and move on. It can be the whole basis of a fighting system, or it can be strictly a performance piece. It can be used to get a good workout, or it can be a simple warmup.

I use it as different things as I feel necessary. I’ve used it to compete, I’ve used it to pass a test, I’ve analyzed some deeper than many others think necessary yet not nearly as deeply as others. Basically, the situation and my mood at the time dictates how and what I do with a kata at that moment. The only time it’s wrong is if I’m using it differently than I should be at that particular moment, like analyzing “hidden fighting moves” when I’m trying to use it for competition.

If we’re discussing bunkai, every post I said previously is way off. If we’re thinking standardized and using it solely as a robotic performance for a competition, I’m wrong again. If we’re thinking of different ways to use it and learn it, we’re all correct.


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## JR 137 (Dec 23, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> Does he do the spins on the heel of the foot? Is that how you teach them? That would be different to our teaching. We also turn forward instead of to the back. Sonal blocks are done slightly different also. Good form.


I didn’t look at his feet for what part his weight and spin was from. I look at his knees, head height and overall balance for how he was spinning, and when he was spinning (on which counts/moves). 

We spin on the ball of the foot. Or at least I’m pretty sure we’re supposed to   My feet are pretty flat and heavy, so I’m more of a ball of the foot and beyond guy. Definitely not my heels though; if there’s only one part of my foot not touching, it’s definitely the heel.


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## Yokozuna514 (Dec 23, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> The Pinan 1 Ura is exactly how we do ura kata. All spins were on steps forward, notably not on the first count where he stepped to his left and counts like that. And his spin is how I was describing mine - his feet come in closer rather than the back leg staying straight through the turn.
> 
> What doesn’t make sense to me is why he spun on the opening move of Pinan 3, but not in Pinan 1.


Not really sure why we don't either.  Never heard a reasonable explanation as to why that kata is different but I suspect it may have to do with the fact it is the 1st kata in the series and the movement is the most basic.  Not a great explanation but it's the only one that seems reasonable to me barring any better explanation.


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## Yokozuna514 (Dec 23, 2018)

_Simon_ said:


> Very interesting... yeah I guess a few aspects of the kata have to change in order incorporate ura more efficiently.
> 
> Wow, your Shodan grading sounded fun . Havent heard of Kyokushin no kata Tsuki Uke, is it similar to Tsuki no kata? And yeah ours involved all Sokugu kata in ura and tate, didn't have the pleasure of experiencing them haha.
> 
> I've never heard of Enshin Tensho! Am curious, looked it up but couldn't find it anywhere at all.. just looked in my old syllabus and we have something called 'Enkei Tensho' at Sandan, but I have no idea what that is... multidirectional Tensho...?


Yes, my grading was SO fun .   Kyokushin no kata Tsuki Uke is an Oyama Karate Kata if I am not mistaken.  They are the only folks (besides us) that do it.  It is very different from Tsuki no kata.  Kyokushin no kata Tsuki Uke only has 10 steps and incorporates all the basic stances and blocks done mostly from a kumite dachi.  It's very simple in concept but looks great when you two people do it face to face.   If I find a video, I will post it.


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## Yokozuna514 (Dec 23, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> I don't want to offend or "trigger" anyone, so my apologies for the analogy but studying kata is like studying the Bible.  Many students do kata like reading a newspaper or magazine. You don't read the Bible like you read a newspaper. Both the Bible and kata are there to draw deep meaning from them. It shouldn't be something you do lightly or superficially. I mean you can, but it misses the point.  Someone in an earlier post called forms a " pattern" .  I am sure that is the way they were taught but to me that is all wrong. It is so much more. The value of the Bible is not found in its binding or how many pages or the quality of the paper. The pages are necessary to draw out the meaning just as linked motion is necessary to draw meaning from the form. To not understand that is "not seeing the forest from the trees"
> I was told once "the Bible doesn't mean, what it says.....it means MORE than it says."
> Kata is the same.





gpseymour said:


> This, as an absolute statement, presupposed that as the intent and purpose of forms. I have no doubt some forms were created with that approach in mind. I know with certainty that some were created for a more superficial purpose.
> 
> Here’s the rub (to me): my original intent in creating a form only matters somewhat. If someone uses them for purposes I didn’t intend, that’s fine...so long as they don’t try to get from them something that’s not in there. If they cross that line, they are likely to get wonky results. Trying to understand hip throw via kata would be a big mistake, for instance; it’s not in there, nor are the set-up mechanics.


I can see how some people may be offended by that analogy but I think I understand what you are getting at.  There is a deeper meaning to kata if one chooses to delve deeper.   It contains the essence of movements that can be translated into proper practice to make oneself better.    

There are throws that are in kata.  Does the kata give you all the proper mechanics to do all the throws ?   No, but it gives you the essence which can be extracted and extrapolated for deeper consideration.   Two people can look at the exact same form, done the exact same way and still see very different things.  It takes a proper instructor to guide you through the movements and help you understand how they can be used to improve one's practice.


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## hoshin1600 (Dec 23, 2018)

i try never to say that anyone else's training is wrong..though i do have opinions that i sometimes express based on goals and purposes. 
when i started my training i learned Taikyoku Shodan kata.  it was learned as a pattern.  it had no depth beyond the sequence of step, block, punch.  it was only an exercise in memory, something to be memorized. then the next form and the next and the next.  at some point i remember thinking that these forms have to have more to it.  there is something i am missing here.  as time progressed i began to dig into kata like an archaeologist.  i find great depth of meaning in forms now.  it is something that keeps me interested in the art, always learning more, finding something new.

i am not saying my way is correct and others are wrong,, i am only sharing my view.


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## JR 137 (Dec 23, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> i try never to say that anyone else's training is wrong..though i do have opinions that i sometimes express based on goals and purposes.
> when i started my training i learned Taikyoku Shodan kata.  it was learned as a pattern.  it had no depth beyond the sequence of step, block, punch.  it was only an exercise in memory, something to be memorized. then the next form and the next and the next.  at some point i remember thinking that these forms have to have more to it.  there is something i am missing here.  as time progressed i began to dig into kata like an archaeologist.  i find great depth of meaning in forms now.  it is something that keeps me interested in the art, always learning more, finding something new.
> 
> i am not saying my way is correct and others are wrong,, i am only sharing my view.


I knew what you were getting at. Please don’t interpret my response to yours as anything but that.

Like I said earlier, IMO kata is the best representation of art within karate.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 23, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> i try never to say that anyone else's training is wrong..though i do have opinions that i sometimes express based on goals and purposes.
> when i started my training i learned Taikyoku Shodan kata.  it was learned as a pattern.  it had no depth beyond the sequence of step, block, punch.  it was only an exercise in memory, something to be memorized. then the next form and the next and the next.  at some point i remember thinking that these forms have to have more to it.  there is something i am missing here.  as time progressed i began to dig into kata like an archaeologist.  i find great depth of meaning in forms now.  it is something that keeps me interested in the art, always learning more, finding something new.
> 
> i am not saying my way is correct and others are wrong,, i am only sharing my view.


And there's nothing wrong with that, especially if you acknowledge some of that depth is your own divination - you digging into principles and finding things the creator of the form may not have intended, but which the forms can be used for.


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## pdg (Dec 23, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> Someone in an earlier post called forms a " pattern" . I am sure that is the way they were taught but to me that is all wrong



I call them patterns, because that's the translation from "tul" - at least, it's the translation used in the encyclopaedia.

It doesn't mean that they are just a pattern of moves to me, it's just a name for that portion of practice.

Like using "forms" - that word has no deeper meaning than "pattern" unless you choose to assign one.

Calling them "Bob" wouldn't change that.

Calling the ones I practice "kata" would be incorrect on at least one level - it's a Japanese word which shouldn't really be applied to a Korean art.

If you personally choose to interpret me using the word "pattern" as me lacking understanding in some way there's very little I can do about that - I could argue but it'd be pointless and futile.


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## JR 137 (Dec 23, 2018)

pdg said:


> I call them patterns, because that's the translation from "tul" - at least, it's the translation used in the encyclopaedia.
> 
> It doesn't mean that they are just a pattern of moves to me, it's just a name for that portion of practice.
> 
> ...


A lot of Korean stylists (non-Korean speakers) use Japanese terms, which I find odd and funny at the same time.

Come to think of it, I haven’t heard Japanese stylists use Korean terms. I guess that one doesn’t work both ways.


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## hoshin1600 (Dec 23, 2018)

pdg said:


> I call them patterns, because that's the translation from "tul" - at least, it's the translation used in the encyclopaedia.
> 
> It doesn't mean that they are just a pattern of moves to me, it's just a name for that portion of practice.
> 
> ...



i dont mean to imply that you personally have any lack of understanding.   its just my opinion that the English word pattern and its definition just seems off to me form is a little better.  the two words while very close in nature have different meanings in my view.  i would say that when i first started training the word pattern does actually fit well for the way i was training but for i see things now it doesnt really fit.   going back to my Bible analogy to say that you have read the Bible gives the meaning that you skimmed through it once or twice. where if you join a group they would not call it a Bible reading but a Bible study, and yet they are reading it. semantics,,,nothing more.


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## dvcochran (Dec 23, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> i dont mean to imply that you personally have any lack of understanding.   its just my opinion that the English word pattern and its definition just seems off to me form is a little better.  the two words while very close in nature have different meanings in my view.  i would say that when i first started training the word pattern does actually fit well for the way i was training but for i see things now it doesnt really fit.   going back to my Bible analogy to say that you have read the Bible gives the meaning that you skimmed through it once or twice. where if you join a group they would not call it a Bible reading but a Bible study, and yet they are reading it. semantics,,,nothing more.


And I see the opposite. A pattern is a path, or something that is precise with little deviation. A form is a loose consolidation of things. IMHO. I get that the definitions are similar. I just helps me to think of it this way.


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## hoshin1600 (Dec 23, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> And I see the opposite. A pattern is a path, or something that is precise with little deviation. A form is a loose consolidation of things. IMHO


EXACTLY.  
Google says a pattern is a repeated design / a model used as a guide.  so yes a pattern is meant to be done in a predefined way, perhaps with no alterations.  but a form as a verb is to bring together parts to combine or create something/ to make or fashion something into a certain shape.
for me ,,, my training uses a form in a jazz like way rather than a classical piece where you only play whats on the page.  the kata has a form but it is like a clay to mold.


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## dvcochran (Dec 23, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Nothing wrong with your statement, at that what it is TO YOU.
> 
> I look at kata as the quintessential “art” of the martial arts. Take a work of art like a painting. Better yet, take possibly the most famous painting of all - the Mona Lisa...
> 
> ...


Damn that's good.
There is only one church IMHO. The denominations are man made fluff.


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## hoshin1600 (Dec 23, 2018)




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## pdg (Dec 23, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> A lot of Korean stylists (non-Korean speakers) use Japanese terms, which I find odd and funny at the same time.
> 
> Come to think of it, I haven’t heard Japanese stylists use Korean terms. I guess that one doesn’t work both ways.



I view that as a lack of understanding (ignorance, in the strict definition).

I've seen both Korean and Chinese derived stylists refer to their teacher as "sensei" for example. It would be perfectly understandable if it were a Japanese person, but for an English (or any other language) speaker to use Japanese terms seems a little disrespectful to me.

It's maybe a personal choice, and I'm not a Korean speaker, but I don't wish to use doubly foreign terms.



hoshin1600 said:


> i dont mean to imply that you personally have any lack of understanding. its just my opinion that the English word pattern and its definition just seems off to me form is a little better. the two words while very close in nature have different meanings in my view. i would say that when i first started training the word pattern does actually fit well for the way i was training but for i see things now it doesnt really fit



If that's how you choose to interpret the meaning of the terms in your usage that's absolutely fine - I would however respectfully request that you make a linguistic exception for me 

I don't use form because it's not the accepted name in my school, my interpretation of the patterns (or use thereof) is my own.


(Just like I'm very purposefully filtering your Bible references and removing them from any post of yours I quote, and will do the same with any post containing religious connotations)


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## hoshin1600 (Dec 23, 2018)

pdg said:


> (Just like I'm very purposefully filtering your Bible references and removing them from any post of yours I quote, and will do the same with any post containing religious connotations)



is that because your religious or because your not?   i happen to be Buddhist.    seriously.


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## JR 137 (Dec 23, 2018)

pdg said:


> I view that as a lack of understanding (ignorance, in the strict definition).
> 
> I've seen both Korean and Chinese derived stylists refer to their teacher as "sensei" for example. It would be perfectly understandable if it were a Japanese person, but for an English (or any other language) speaker to use Japanese terms seems a little disrespectful to me.
> 
> ...


I guess people call others whatever they’ve been told to call them or whatever that person introduced themself as. If a Kung Fu or TKD teacher introduced himself as sensei, it would make sense that his students call him that. Stupid on the teacher’s end, but sensible on the student’s end. 

I see a lot of TKD and TSD students use (or write on forums) gi, dojo, and sensei most often (when they’re wrong) for their stuff. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a karateka use dobok, dojang or sabum in reference to their stuff. Odd.


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## dvcochran (Dec 23, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> I guess people call others whatever they’ve been told to call them or whatever that person introduced themself as. If a Kung Fu or TKD teacher introduced himself as sensei, it would make sense that his students call him that. Stupid on the teacher’s end, but sensible on the student’s end.
> 
> I see a lot of TKD and TSD students use (or write on forums) gi, dojo, and sensei most often (when they’re wrong) for their stuff. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a karateka use dobok, dojang or sabum in reference to their stuff. Odd.


I think if you consider Korean occupation over the years it can make more sense. Korea never ruled over Japan or China than I am aware of.


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## _Simon_ (Dec 23, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> I don't want to offend or "trigger" anyone, so my apologies for the analogy but studying kata is like studying the Bible.  Many students do kata like reading a newspaper or magazine. You don't read the Bible like you read a newspaper. Both the Bible and kata are there to draw deep meaning from them. It shouldn't be something you do lightly or superficially. I mean you can, but it misses the point.  Someone in an earlier post called forms a " pattern" .  I am sure that is the way they were taught but to me that is all wrong. It is so much more. The value of the Bible is not found in its binding or how many pages or the quality of the paper. The pages are necessary to draw out the meaning just as linked motion is necessary to draw meaning from the form. To not understand that is "not seeing the forest from the trees"
> I was told once "the Bible doesn't mean, what it says.....it means MORE than it says."
> Kata is the same.





JR 137 said:


> Nothing wrong with your statement, at that what it is TO YOU.
> 
> I look at kata as the quintessential “art” of the martial arts. Take a work of art like a painting. Better yet, take possibly the most famous painting of all - the Mona Lisa...
> 
> ...


Both really excellent points and posts, thoroughly enjoying this discussion .

I love the analogies used and they make sense to me. Kata to me is a much deeper study than a list of techniques. I've even heard that each kata is trying to convey an idea or a principle, a particular way of being, moving and a specific intention with how you use your body, and that makes sense.

Compare the principles within Seiunchin which is very rooted in a solid stance, unbalancing an opponent and in close range. A real push/pull dynamic within a solid structure. With an intention and posture of "I'm not moving". That's powerful...

Then you look at a kata like Empi/Enpi. Teaching agility, quickness, ability to move and generate power through dynamic movement, and also to create/summon a dynamic, free-moving energy. It has a lightness to it, like a flying swallow (apparently the name translates to "flying swallow"). Also just as powerful in it's own way.

There's very much (from what I've seen) a psyche and spirit to each kata, an intentionality, and THAT fascinates me... that way you can really practice it with the orientation of trying to tap into that, what's it trying to communicate or imbue into you? What qualities?

(And like has been said, kata can mean different things to different people, also within different contexts and reasonings for sure. I personally don't feel it's simply just a bunkai and stimulus/response sequence, but something more)


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## yak sao (Dec 24, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> i try never to say that anyone else's training is wrong..though i do have opinions that i sometimes express based on goals and purposes.
> when i started my training i learned Taikyoku Shodan kata.  it was learned as a pattern.  it had no depth beyond the sequence of step, block, punch.  it was only an exercise in memory, something to be memorized. then the next form and the next and the next.  at some point i remember thinking that these forms have to have more to it.  there is something i am missing here.  as time progressed i began to dig into kata like an archaeologist.  i find great depth of meaning in forms now.  it is something that keeps me interested in the art, always learning more, finding something new.
> 
> i am not saying my way is correct and others are wrong,, i am only sharing my view.



The kata are not the system...the system is in the kata.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 25, 2018)

yak sao said:


> The kata are not the system...the system is in the kata.


But a good designed set of forms (Kata) should contain all the important principles in the system.


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## yak sao (Dec 25, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> But a good designed set of forms (Kata) should contain all the important principles in the system.



My point exactly.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 26, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> But a good designed set of forms (Kata) should contain all the important principles in the system.


If that's the purpose of the kata.


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## Bruce7 (Dec 26, 2018)

Bill Mattocks said:


> This applies only if you are a student of a martial art form that practices kata, forms, or something resembling that.
> 
> The tip is, don't stop practicing an old kata just because you've moved on to learning a new one.  In many schools, and definitely where I train, knowing all the katas that have been taught is required.
> 
> ...



Agree on the Kata, Forms.

*Strongly Disagree on the Algebra.*
As a Well Control Instructor for Wild Well the largest Oil Well Fighting Company in the world, * I have been told by new students every week, "I wish I would have paid attention to my Algebra teacher." The students would tell me they were wrong when they told their math teacher, "I will never use math in real life."*


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 26, 2018)

Bruce7 said:


> Agree on the Kata, Forms.
> 
> *Strongly Disagree on the Algebra.*
> As a Well Control Instructor for Wild Well the largest Oil Well Fighting Company in the world, * I have been told by new students every week, "I wish I would have paid attention to my Algebra teacher." The students would tell me they were wrong when they told their math teacher, "I will never use math in real life."*


I use algebra, geometry, and trigonometry on a regular basis. If nowhere else, I use them on home repair and woodworking projects. The concepts (not the actual math) also help when thinking about approaches and openings in my MA musings.


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## pdg (Dec 26, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I use algebra, geometry, and trigonometry on a regular basis. If nowhere else, I use them on home repair and woodworking projects. The concepts (not the actual math) also help when thinking about approaches and openings in my MA musings.



It does seem that "we" aren't really normal people though (normal being classified as the majority).

Most normal people go their entire lives without thinking about numbers - I've seen teenagers using the calculator on their phones to add up the price of 3 chocolate bars to discover whether they have enough money in their pocket...

Home repair is something to get a man in for.

I used to work in IT in the financial sector - a good 90+% of the admin staff would be utterly stumped if the computer didn't provide the answer.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 26, 2018)

pdg said:


> It does seem that "we" aren't really normal people though (normal being classified as the majority).
> 
> Most normal people go their entire lives without thinking about numbers - I've seen teenagers using the calculator on their phones to add up the price of 3 chocolate bars to discover whether they have enough money in their pocket...
> 
> ...


Agreed, to some extent. I'll say this - the folks I know who never took math seriously can't do intermediate stuff now (Pythagorean theorem, basic angles, anything beyond area of a rectangle, etc.). Some of that is retention, some is proclivity. I think the latter is a lesser factor, as I know some folks who struggled more with math than me but can do more advanced stuff than me now, because they worked on it harder in school (I pretty much coasted on math). And I know tradesmen who couldn't graduate school who do intermediate geometry and basic trigonometry on a regular basis, and much better than I do - they just don't know that's what it is.


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## Bruce7 (Dec 26, 2018)

pdg said:


> It does seem that "we" aren't really normal people though (normal being classified as the majority).
> 
> Most normal people go their entire lives without thinking about numbers - I've seen teenagers using the calculator on their phones to add up the price of 3 chocolate bars to discover whether they have enough money in their pocket...
> 
> ...



Knowing Math is power.
Example: When I buy a new car and the salesman tries the math games, I can calculate in my head and turn the game on them.
Saving me thousands of dollars.


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## Bill Mattocks (Dec 26, 2018)

Most of what all of you are describing is arithmetic.  Don't conflate algebra with arithmetic.  Algebra is a type of mathematics, it is not arithmetic.

Algebra - Wikipedia


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## pdg (Dec 26, 2018)

Bruce7 said:


> Knowing Math is power.
> Example: When I buy a new car and the salesman tries the math games, I can calculate in my head and turn the game on them.
> Saving me thousands of dollars.



I clicked agree to this, but I can only agree in theory...

I've never bought a new car, and I've only once bought a car from what could be described as a "salesman".

I used my version of car maths - for instance, my last car which I owned for 15 months.

Purchase price = £130
Total maintenance outlay = £150 (including a set of partworn tyres that I fitted myself)

Run it until something goes wrong (the gearbox started making a nasty noise, still worked, but couldn't be bothered to fix it).

Sell as spares for £100.

Total cost of ownership, excluding fuel = £12/month.


My current car was more to buy (£450) but I've had that for nearly 18 months and I see no reason it won't last a few years.


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## pdg (Dec 26, 2018)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Most of what all of you are describing is arithmetic.  Don't conflate algebra with arithmetic.  Algebra is a type of mathematics, it is not arithmetic.
> 
> Algebra - Wikipedia



I'm considering algebra as a part of the wider world of mathematics - because it wasn't a separate subject at school.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 26, 2018)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Most of what all of you are describing is arithmetic.  Don't conflate algebra with arithmetic.  Algebra is a type of mathematics, it is not arithmetic.
> 
> Algebra - Wikipedia


Agreed. I think I listed algebra, trigonometry, and geometry in one of my posts. I use algebra within the other two, so it's probably the more used set of principles in my case.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 26, 2018)

pdg said:


> I'm considering algebra as a part of the wider world of mathematics - because it wasn't a separate subject at school.


We both did and did not separate it. Every year, we had a mathematics class. For 2-3 years, that math class was primarily algebra, and algebra showed up in all subsequent categories, as well.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 26, 2018)

pdg said:


> I clicked agree to this, but I can only agree in theory...
> 
> I've never bought a new car, and I've only once bought a car from what could be described as a "salesman".
> 
> ...


In the US, there's some funny math that happens, especially when you trade in a car. They'll balance discounts by giving less on trade-in, or by playing with the financing (if they are doing in-house financing), or by offering/not offering package deals on some options.


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## Bruce7 (Dec 26, 2018)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Most of what all of you are describing is arithmetic.  Don't conflate algebra with arithmetic.  Algebra is a type of mathematics, it is not arithmetic.
> 
> Algebra - Wikipedia


It is true. if you think logically and are good at arithmetic you can figure things out,
But isn't that what Math is about using logic to figure things out?
Like gpseymour describing tradesman abilities to do Math (algebra, trigonometry, and geometry)
The tradesman may not have been  taught in a class room setting, he learn by someone showing him and the practice on the job, sounds familiar.

It is just much easy to figure things out if you know Algebra, Trigonometry, Geometry,Calculus.
I can kick you, but it is a much better kick if I have been shown how and I practice.


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## pdg (Dec 26, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> In the US, there's some funny math that happens, especially when you trade in a car. They'll balance discounts by giving less on trade-in, or by playing with the financing (if they are doing in-house financing), or by offering/not offering package deals on some options.



Oh, they do exactly the same here. But I'd never buy a new car unless I was in a position to just open my wallet and pay cash - it just doesn't make any sort of sense to me.

I do like other people buying new cars though, don't get me wrong.

It means that in 5-10 years I can buy that exact car for 1/30 of the price (or less), do whatever I want to it without even considering stuff like resale or trade in penalties and if it comes to it, replace it every 6 weeks and still save money compared to finance payments.

The only possible advantage I can see to a new car is that less people will have farted in the seats...


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 26, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> In the US, there's some funny math that happens, especially when you trade in a car. They'll balance discounts by giving less on trade-in, or by playing with the financing (if they are doing in-house financing), or by offering/not offering package deals on some options.


The car that I bought last time had 0% interest rate. The number that we played with was the monthly payment. In stead of saying, "I think my trade in car worth ...", I said, "I like to keep my monthly payment under ...".


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## Bruce7 (Dec 26, 2018)

pdg said:


> Oh, they do exactly the same here. But I'd never buy a new car unless I was in a position to just open my wallet and pay cash - it just doesn't make any sort of sense to me.
> 
> I do like other people buying new cars though, don't get me wrong.
> 
> ...



You have a good point. 
I buy new and drive it at less ten years. You get price breaks if you let them finance, because they get a kick back.
Then after a few payment you pay it off. In the U.S you do not pay penalties for paying off early. They get even by  just dropping your credit score 10 or 20 points, but if your credit score is 850 it does not matter.


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## Bruce7 (Dec 26, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The car that I bought last time had 0% interest rate. The number that we played with was the monthly payment. In stead of saying, "I think my trade in car worth ...", I said, "I like to keep my monthly payment under ...".


'

"In stead of saying, "I think my trade in car worth ...", I said, "I like to keep my monthly payment under ...".
This makes you happy, that is a good thing.
I sold cars for a month when I went to College. It was not a good fit for me.
What you have described is a car salesman's dream.
So you are both happy.


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## pdg (Dec 26, 2018)

Bruce7 said:


> You have a good point.
> I buy new and drive it at less ten years. You get price breaks if you let them finance, because they get a kick back.
> Then after a few payment you pay it off. In the U.S you do not pay penalties for paying off early. They get even by  just dropping your credit score 10 or 20 points, but if your credit score is 850 it does not matter.



There's very few that penalise early settlement - a few definitely do, but not many.

Maybe it's still a different finance model here though...

I think the most popular is a standard hire purchase - you pay a deposit of sorts (anything from a few pounds under special offers up to 10% or more of the sticker price), then monthly payments for 2-5 years.

At the end of the agreement you have choices:

Hand the car back and walk away

Hand the car back and start again with a new one

Pay the final 'balloon payment' which is usually around 50% of the sticker price and keep the car


The first two options are subject to inspection of the car, and there are (substantial) penalties for things like damage, aftermarket parts, different make if tyres, etc. For instance, a lot of agreements are based on say 8,000 miles a year - anything over that is charged at 20p+ per mile. I know someone who had their car sat on the drive unused for nearly a year to save going over the mileage...


Then there's "personal contract plans", which is basically a fixed term lease. My sister does this for her car and is constantly paranoid (when she handed the last car back for exchange she got charged hundreds for a few stone chips in the paint).


I'll stick to using up the last vestiges of life in cheap cars tyvm


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## Bruce7 (Dec 26, 2018)

pdg said:


> There's very few that penalise early settlement - a few definitely do, but not many.
> 
> Maybe it's still a different finance model here though...
> 
> ...


In the U.S last car payment , the car is yours. I payoff early and to save the interest.


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## pdg (Dec 26, 2018)

Bruce7 said:


> In the U.S last car payment , the car is yours. I payoff early and to save the interest.



Is that standard practice or simply one option of many?


In any case, my preference is to make one single payment (preferably less than what two months standard finance would cost) and own the car there and then.

But then, I'm not bothered by in car toys (except stupid childish sound systems, which new cars don't have and I'd have to fit myself anyway), I know how to twirl spanners (up to and including rebuilding engines), I can weld (and own the kit), I can happily plug in my laptop and reprogram stuff...

The only thing that stands a chance of scuppering my usual plans is electric cars...


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## _Simon_ (Dec 26, 2018)

Car kata?  (the practical application of it.) Bringing it full circle


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 26, 2018)

pdg said:


> Oh, they do exactly the same here. But I'd never buy a new car unless I was in a position to just open my wallet and pay cash - it just doesn't make any sort of sense to me.
> 
> I do like other people buying new cars though, don't get me wrong.
> 
> ...


Agreed. I've owned a couple of new cars, but I really like a good used car. My current car is an older Mercedes - a $50,000 car (in 2000) I was able to get in quite nice condition for $6,000, and have put almost 150,000 miles on already.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 26, 2018)

Bruce7 said:


> In the U.S last car payment , the car is yours. I payoff early and to save the interest.


What he describes sounds similar to a lot of the lease plans common in the US.


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## JR 137 (Dec 27, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The car that I bought last time had 0% interest rate. The number that we played with was the monthly payment. In stead of saying, "I think my trade in car worth ...", I said, "I like to keep my monthly payment under ...".


Worst thing you can do. I know a few guys who sell cars, and they’ll tell you the same thing (if you’re friends and they’re not trying to sell you a car).  My uncles (brothers) co-own a used car lot. They’re honest guys, and I’m not saying that because they’re my family. I know car salesmen’s tricks.

If you’re monthly payment driven, and there’s nothing wrong with that at all, here’s what you do: you figure out what your willing to pay per month and for how long. You add in interest and a down payment into it, and you get a total amount you’d spend on the car. There are online calculators you can play with for this.

You take that amount and start negotiating a price for a car. You know approximately what the monthly payment will be going into it. Now you’re in control. Somewhat.

You go in, find the car, and talk price of the car only. You tell them you’re financing through your own bank. If they ask the interest rate, you tell them a little less than the calculations you came up with. This is valuable later on; I’ll get to that.

You tell them you’re selling your car to a friend.

When they start their whole trade-in value, interest rate, down payment, monthly payment scheme (because that’s what it really is), you tell them they’re trying to do too many things at once, and right now you’re only interested in negotiating the price of the car. You tell them if they can secure a good deal, you’ll discuss that stuff afterwards.

Now you make an offer (not a monthly payment offer).  They’ll tell you they need to talk to their boss, to which you reply “you mean that sheet in the back where it tells you the minimum is your boss? Sure, I’ll wait here while you look at that and keep me waiting, because you think the longer I wait, the more Im going to justify spending more.” And that one’s a known fact among them. Remember, it’s all a game.

They come back with a price after what seems like 15-20 minutes. They counter. You tell them about 90% of what you’re really willing to spend, and they’ll usually somehow get to right where you’re at. Provided you’re making a reasonable offer, of course.

After you lock down the price, remember, they agreed, then you start with the trade-in. Know what the average trade-in value is. Know the condition of your car. If they give you the average and your car’s above average, tell them you want more.

Once that’s settled, then see what the finance guy can do. If they give you a number that’s off, tell them what your calculations lead you to. They like to sneak in extras like an extended warranty. Tell them to take it off and give you the price you negotiated and stop with the nonsense or you’re leaving.

If they tell you they just put tires, brakes, etc. on it, tell them they had to because they can’t legally sell a car that doesn’t pass inspection. Also remind them they don’t pay retail for parts (tires included) nor labor. They get parts for approximately 60% less than retail if they’re a dealer, and 40% less if they’re independent. That $2k tire and brake job cost the dealer $600 tops when all was said and done. Add another $1k for a certified used because someone from the manufacturer comes for this and charges the dealer.

If you can, find out the average dealer’s price at auction for the used car. When all’s said and done, about $2500 more than they paid should be a great deal. They need to make money, and you need to save money. Depending on the car, that’s a decent markup they’ll be barely comfortable with.

New cars have little wiggle room on price. Dealers make their money on used cars and service, not on new cars, relatively speaking.

Don’t fall for doing 3 deals at once - your car, financing, and the car payment all in one. They’ll easily get what they want for the car and give you practically nothing for yours. They’ll just extend the length of the payments and/or do a “balloon payment” while letting you think you got a deal. They definitely won’t show it, but they’ll walk away a lot happier than you, trust me.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 27, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> stop with the nonsense or you’re leaving.


Agree with everything you have said. When I ask them the best deal that they are willing to give me, if I walk away and they don't stop me. I know they may have reached to their bottom line. If I return back 2 hours later, I know that I have a good deal.


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## JR 137 (Dec 28, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Agree with everything you have said. When I ask them the best deal that they are willing to give me, if I walk away and they don't stop me. I know they may have reached to their bottom line. If I return back 2 hours later, I know that I have a good deal.


The thing about a used car is - there’s only the one you’re looking at. Sure they probably have other comparable ones, but the one you want may not be there later on. If you’re set on that car, it could get sold by the time you come back. It most likely won’t happen in 2 hours, but if you come back the next day, week, etc. it could be gone.

If you’re set on say, a used Toyota Camry. There’s only one on that lot with that mileage, condition, color, options, etc. If it’s a new Camry, you could just pic another one because they’ve probably got a lot full of them.

Speaking of Toyota, not every brand has the same wiggle room in price. Toyota is a notoriously low markup vehicle brand. Toyota dealers make money on volume, not indidual sales. Honda and Nissan are similar, but not as much so. My uncles refuse to sell Toyota because they never make enough to make it worth their time. They may have one on their lot, but that’s typically because they got it on a good trade-in deal. They also refuse to sell VW/Audi because they’ve had so many problems with them and they got tired of having to make good on a bad car and losing time and money in the after sale process.

VW and Audi are a pretty high markup used car, meaning they get them dirt cheap at auction compared to what they’re selling for on the lot. 

Just about all used cars come from auction. The manufacturer’s financial companies sell former lease vehicles at auctions open only to licensed dealers. Buy a 2-3 old Volvo from a dealer, and it was sold at auction by Volvo financial, stuff like that. They take a risk with that though - they really have no way of knowing the history and true condition of the car. Most need minimal stuff (they all need something), few need some costly stuff that they may actually lose money on, but that’s the cost of doing business. They offset that risk with overall markup on everything.


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## Bill Mattocks (Dec 28, 2018)

I seldom buy new cars. Bought one for my wife recently. Checked advertised prices, checked vehicle recommendations, went in and bought car. Did not haggle. Might have saved a few bucks. So what. I dislike spending hours playing games for a hundred bucks. We were in and out in under an hour. Donated old car to charity.

I bought my 2000 Jeep Cherokee new. Still have it. Bought my motorcycles and my 94 Toyota pickup off Craigslist.


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## CB Jones (Dec 28, 2018)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I seldom buy new cars. Bought one for my wife recently. Checked advertised prices, checked vehicle recommendations, went in and bought car. Did not haggle. Might have saved a few bucks. So what. I dislike spending hours playing games for a hundred bucks. We were in and out in under an hour. Donated old car to charity.
> 
> I bought my 2000 Jeep Cherokee new. Still have it. Bought my motorcycles and my 94 Toyota pickup off Craigslist.



Thats me...I hate hagling.

When I bought my wife her Durango....I told the salesman...I want that one, I want ya'll to add a towing package, unlimited mileage warranty, and this is the most I am willing to pay per month with nothing down.  They came back 5 minutes later and said deal and we did the paperwork.


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## pdg (Dec 28, 2018)

Well, I have to thank all you people who buy new cars, and nearly new.

Without you taking the monumentally huge financial hit there wouldn't be cheap old cars for me.

I can't personally comprehend why a new (or recent) car is worth so much to anyone, but hey - whatever.

Cheers all


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## Bill Mattocks (Dec 28, 2018)

pdg said:


> Well, I have to thank all you people who buy new cars, and nearly new.
> 
> Without you taking the monumentally huge financial hit there wouldn't be cheap old cars for me.
> 
> ...



Personally, I tend to prefer used, after the big initial depreciation hit. I also like less automation and less covert data gathering by my vehicle to be packaged and sold by others.

However, I like my wife to have a newer, safer, car that has a warranty and is less likely to break down on her. I'll take the depreciation hit for that. Some things are more important than a financial equation.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 28, 2018)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Personally, I tend to prefer used,


I used to think that way. One day I suddenly realize that I only live once and I deserve to have something new. It's sad that one day when I die, I have not even drove a new car yet.

I live in Texas and California. Every year I have to drive across the country and back. I need to have a car that I can trust. I bought my wife a 2018 Toyota RAV4 hybrid 4 wheels drive. This way I don't have to worry for the next 10 years.


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## pdg (Dec 28, 2018)

Bill Mattocks said:


> However, I like my wife to have a newer, safer, car that has a warranty and is less likely to break down on her.



There's no guarantee that a car being newer means it's safer - we have ratings available for car safety and some popular new models are shockingly bad.

A new car isn't necessarily less likely to break down than a well maintained older one - I used to drive a lot of brand new hire cars for work journeys and I've had more than a couple with under a hundred miles on the clock leave me stranded.

A warranty is all well and good if it A: covers what is likely to break and B: comes with a trustworthy workforce, which is far from a certainty.

Still, if it makes you feel better then I'm not arguing against your choice, only your reasons.


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## JR 137 (Dec 28, 2018)

I’ve only once bought from a dealer that wasn’t my uncles. Certified used 2006 Highlander. Bought it 1/1/09 with 34k miles. Certified used warranty was 10 years/100k miles, which is better than the new warranty. Sticker price was $28k new. I paid $17k. So $11k less and 34k miles, I’m happy. I’ve currently got 168k miles on it and no payment for the last 5 and a half years.

I’ve never bought new and never will. I can get so much more car for my money buying a 2-3 year old car vs new. For $17k, I wouldn’t have been able to buy much new. $17k got me a barely used car that was $28k. The last thing I wanted to do was haggle with the dealer. But saving $11k vs a new one was worth the aggravation. 

Except...

I want a Tesla. I don’t think I’ll find a used one anytime soon. I’m thinking 2-3 years away. The newer smaller one, not the Model S. I think Model 3? I’ll have to drive about 2 hours to see and test drive one.


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## pdg (Dec 28, 2018)

I so appear to think of cars differently 

My current car is plenty comfy enough, it's in good condition (needed a hell of a clean), it's proven reliable enough that I'd get in it right now and drive any distance, it's got just enough toys to amuse me.

But, it's 12 years old...

Also but - it cost me £450 to buy outright, privately.

After a very quick look, the new equivalent model would need a £2750 deposit and £199 per month - and I'd still need to pay £11000 to keep it in 3 years time.

I just can't think of a single sane reason to get a new one.


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## Bruce7 (Dec 28, 2018)

pdg said:


> I so appear to think of cars differently
> 
> My current car is plenty comfy enough, it's in good condition (needed a hell of a clean), it's proven reliable enough that I'd get in it right now and drive any distance, it's got just enough toys to amuse me.
> 
> ...



In America it is not uncommon to drive 100 miles( 160 km ) , 1 to 3 hours, a day just to get to work and back, 
so the car has to be dependable and have extra's we like.

We basically live in our cars. It is not like England, mass transit *not *good in America. You drive miles just to get food, not like England where you can walk around the corner. That is why most people want to drive new.


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## pdg (Dec 28, 2018)

Bruce7 said:


> In America it is not uncommon to drive 100 miles( 160 km ) , 1 to 3 hours, a day just to get to work and back,
> so the car has to be dependable and have extra's we like.
> 
> We basically live in our cars. It is not like England, mass transit *not *good in America. You drive miles just to get food, not like England where you can walk around the corner. That is why most people want to drive new.



I can't walk round the corner to buy food - it's over an hour walk to the closest supermarket.

When I was a taxi driver all those years ago, 500 mile days were normal (that's 3 runs to the airport, and airport/docks runs were what I did). The car I used for that I bought at about 6 years old with 50,000 miles on, it had 260,000+ on when I got rid of it - and I only got rid of it because I stopped taxi-ing and started using a motorbike exclusively for a while.

Also, I worked in London for a time, which was 95 miles each way, every day.

Now, with my current job - I'll do 10 miles, work, 5 miles, work, 10 miles, work, 8 miles, work - etc. 50-150 miles in a day is far from uncommon.

That sort of usage profile is far far harder on the vehicle mechanically than doing 100 miles in one hit.

I think I'm allergic to mass transport - I have a pathological hatred of buses, trains, etc. Even if I liked the bus, to get to town there is one every two hours each way from my closest stop (a mile walk), nothing before 8am or after 7pm, a reduced service on Wednesday and nothing at all on Sunday.


Just because England is a smaller land mass, it doesn't mean you can't make it big...

And, I haven't owned a car with less than 150,000 miles on the clock for many years. My current one is on 174,000.

And I still don't view a new car as any advantage - for me.

(Oh, and for reference - very very few people in the UK ever even think of km instead of miles. All our cars record in miles, our speed limits are mph, our road signs state miles - the only time metric measurements are used is stuff like the approach to a junction - it switched from yds to metres a few years back)


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## Bruce7 (Dec 28, 2018)

pdg said:


> I can't walk round the corner to buy food - it's over an hour walk to the closest supermarket.
> 
> When I was a taxi driver all those years ago, 500 mile days were normal (that's 3 runs to the airport, and airport/docks runs were what I did). The car I used for that I bought at about 6 years old with 50,000 miles on, it had 260,000+ on when I got rid of it - and I only got rid of it because I stopped taxi-ing and started using a motorbike exclusively for a while.
> 
> ...



You can't kill an Austin FX4 Black Cab with that diesel engine.


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## Bruce7 (Dec 28, 2018)

Just joking about the km. I went to school at a Royal Naval school in Malta in the 1960's. I know how many stones I weigh.
I know the old money, 240 pennies to the pound. 12 pennies to the shilling ,20 shillings to the pound. I though your old money was cool.
Different size notes. No drinking age in Malta, 1 and 3 for local beer, half crown for a Heineken.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 28, 2018)

pdg said:


> I so appear to think of cars differently
> 
> My current car is plenty comfy enough, it's in good condition (needed a hell of a clean), it's proven reliable enough that I'd get in it right now and drive any distance, it's got just enough toys to amuse me.
> 
> ...


I got my Mercedes about 6 years ago, which would have made it about 12 years old. I paid $6K for it, and got a car that I've now put another 130K miles on. It has rarely given me trouble, and I'd get in it now and drive several hundred miles. In fact, I did exactly that just a few months ago when I went to Kentucky to visit with @Tony Dismukes and another MA friend of mine. If I want, I can probably get another 100K miles without spending too much.

I like new cars. I get to rent nearly-new cars all the time, and they're a lot of fun to drive. If I had an excess of cash, I'd probably buy new cars sometimes. I have a hard time finding a good reason to do so when I can save up and buy something nice every few years.


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## JR 137 (Dec 28, 2018)

pdg said:


> I so appear to think of cars differently
> 
> My current car is plenty comfy enough, it's in good condition (needed a hell of a clean), it's proven reliable enough that I'd get in it right now and drive any distance, it's got just enough toys to amuse me.
> 
> ...


Everyone likes what they like, and couldn’t care much less about some things.

I’m honestly not a big fan of the majority of stuff put in today’s cars. A few things are nice, but the rest are just IMO trying to somehow solve problems that don’t actually exist.

I hate the auto-dimming rearview mirrors. They don’t dim enough and why do they need to be automatic? I have the old trusty flip the knob on the mirror and it’s so much better. Stupid feature IMO.

Rain sensing wipers? Is it so hard to push a lever up?

Speed sensitive wipers? Is it so hard to figure out which to use - slow, fast or intermittent? I’ve got about 4 speeds of intermittent, and I turn the lever. Is it so hard to do that? Or are drivers too stupid?

I hate temperature controlled heat/ac. Give me the knob with red and blue on it. I don’t need 72 degrees exactly. Then when that temperature is reached, I get cool air instead of warm. Stupid feature. I know when warm is warm enough.

I do like the stereo I installed several months ago - I’ve got Bluetooth calling on it. Hit the phone button and press a radio preset number for calls. And the music turns off when I get a call and comes back on when I’m done.

I wish I had heated seats.

One thing I’d really like is a refrigerated console to put drinks in on road trips. A friend had that in his Saab a while back, but he didn’t like it. Better yet, he liked the concept but not the implementation.

I drive an SUV and hate it. It’s a decent enough SUV, but I’m not an SUV fan. I bought it when we found out my wife was pregnant with our first child. It’s been highly practical, but I just want a small car back. My father has an ‘07 Volvo S40 he bought from a customer (he’s a mechanic) a while back that he just hasn’t sold. 5 cylinder turbo, 6 speed manual, AWD. 54k miles on it. I’ve been telling myself I should offer him what he paid for it, which was a great deal, but I haven’t gotten around to it yet. I’d much rather that than my Highlander, but my Highlander is still somewhat more practical right now. My previous 3 cars have all been Volvos, and I loved each one. I hated getting rid of my 850 turbo for the Highlander, but it was time to let it go. I wasn’t comfortable driving a car with almost  250k miles on it with an infant. Breaking down would’ve sucked. However, it’s still on the road. The guy I sold it to lives several blocks away, and I see it most days on my way to work. I wonder how many miles he’s got on it now. I sold it to him just about 10 years ago. Still looks like new too.


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## pdg (Dec 28, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Everyone likes what they like, and couldn’t care much less about some things.
> 
> I’m honestly not a big fan of the majority of stuff put in today’s cars. A few things are nice, but the rest are just IMO trying to somehow solve problems that don’t actually exist.
> 
> ...



I clicked agree, but my cheapie car has most of those features...

Auto dimming mirror - yeah, that's a pointless thing exactly as you describe. I may yet swap that out for an old fashioned flippy one.

Auto wipers - I use those... I can fully override the auto function but the rain we often get is that bit too much for intermittent and not quite enough for constant without screeching. It honestly has to save wear on the lever  I think they also do speed sensing, but I've never manually turned them on to find out...

Auto lights - I use those too. I have chosen to override them and switch the lights on myself a total of once. I've never overridden them to off though.

The built in stereo that's spidered into the canbus annoys me - I had to attack it with a soldering iron to get anywhere near an acceptable (to me) amp and keep the reverse sensors and other functions.

Climate control I don't mind, I just deal with it.

I use the cruise, and the speed limiter. Folding electric mirrors are really handy, as are the auto up windows when I lock it.

None of it is essential though, and none of it influenced my decision to buy the car.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 29, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Everyone likes what they like, and couldn’t care much less about some things.
> 
> I’m honestly not a big fan of the majority of stuff put in today’s cars. A few things are nice, but the rest are just IMO trying to somehow solve problems that don’t actually exist.
> 
> ...


Having gotten used to both rain-sensing wipers (much less hassle when the rain is off-and-on and keeps changing how much drizzle I'm driving in) and the auto-dimming rearview mirror (a more consistent visibility than the flip-style, and mind provides enough dimming so headlights behind aren't bothersome), those two I want in every car I own from now on.

I'm entirely with you on the auto-temp climate control. In my car, I often find myself trying to convince the car to just give me a little bit of heat/cold - which would be much easier with the old red-blue knob.

And heated seats are the sh#t. The 20-something me who rode a motorcycle year-round as primary transport is ashamed of me for saying that.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 29, 2018)

pdg said:


> I clicked agree, but my cheapie car has most of those features...
> 
> Auto dimming mirror - yeah, that's a pointless thing exactly as you describe. I may yet swap that out for an old fashioned flippy one.
> 
> ...


Cruise is an absolute must for me. If I have to use the gas pedal for an hour straight on the highway, my right hip starts to cramp up. The only solution at that point is to stop and walk for 5-10 minutes. I won't even rent a car without cruise control.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 29, 2018)

I have to say, this is probably the biggest persistent thread swerve I've seen. Good work, all!


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## _Simon_ (Dec 29, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I have to say, this is probably the biggest persistent thread swerve I've seen. Good work, all!


I KNOW right, I'm rather impressed, of all the swerves, this has to be one of the most off topic to the thread. Congrats guys


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 29, 2018)

_Simon_ said:


> I KNOW right, I'm rather impressed, of all the swerves, this has to be one of the most off topic to the thread. Congrats guys


It's nice to feel appreciated.


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## JR 137 (Dec 29, 2018)

pdg said:


> I clicked agree, but my cheapie car has most of those features...
> 
> Auto dimming mirror - yeah, that's a pointless thing exactly as you describe. I may yet swap that out for an old fashioned flippy one.
> 
> ...


I forgot about auto lights. I had a car with those and hated them too. I always just left them on.

2 things I’ve never had and always wanted - remote start and remote windows up and down.

I’d like a proximity key too and that thing where you wave your foot around and the back door of the SUV opens.

One thing I can’t figure out why no one has come up with - dimming side view mirrors. At least the driver’s side. Getting someone’s headlights in my side view mirror has to be the worst.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 29, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> remote start



Best. Thing. Ever.
It's 6F right now. When I start report, I'll grab my phone and start the truck. Turns on the heater, the defroster, and the seat heaters. By the time I walk out it'll be all toasty warm. And I won't have to scrape the windows.


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## JR 137 (Dec 29, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> Best. Thing. Ever.
> It's 6F right now. When I start report, I'll grab my phone and start the truck. Turns on the heater, the defroster, and the seat heaters. By the time I walk out it'll be all toasty warm. And I won't have to scrape the windows.


I keep telling myself I’m going to install a remote start on my car but never get around to it. Every car I’ve ever owned. Minus the manual transmission cars I’ve had. 

A coworker had a Grand Cherokee with an app on her phone where she could remote start and set the car temperature. I wonder if she could turn the heated seats and defroster on too? Probably.

Of all the apps and car features out there, that’s got to be the best one IMO.


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## JR 137 (Dec 29, 2018)

One option I’ve had a few times and thought was a big deal - moonroof.

I only opened it a few times and closed it almost immediately every time because it annoyed me. I’d tilt it open sometimes though. And I’d usually keep the screen thing that covers it closed. I questioned why I actually wanted one after my first car with it. My Highlander doesn’t have one and I don’t miss it st all.

A friend had a Honda Element with the long moonroof. Really cool and roomy in the back for passengers, but just ugly as all hell IMO. He hated the way it looked and drove, but his kids loved riding in it, so he liked it. I guess it’s like a Rolls Royce in a way - it’s the car you’re driven in, not the car you drive.  Bentley is the car you drive.


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## Bill Mattocks (Dec 29, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> One option I’ve had a few times and thought was a big deal - moonroof.
> 
> I only opened it a few times and closed it almost immediately every time because it annoyed me. I’d tilt it open sometimes though. And I’d usually keep the screen thing that covers it closed. I questioned why I actually wanted one after my first car with it. My Highlander doesn’t have one and I don’t miss it st all.
> 
> A friend had a Honda Element with the long moonroof. Really cool and roomy in the back for passengers, but just ugly as all hell IMO. He hated the way it looked and drove, but his kids loved riding in it, so he liked it. I guess it’s like a Rolls Royce in a way - it’s the car you’re driven in, not the car you drive.  Bentley is the car you drive.



My 96 Chevy Lumina had a moonroof. Liked it until it started to leak. In a carwash.

Then, not so much.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 29, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> I forgot about auto lights. I had a car with those and hated them too. I always just left them on.
> 
> 2 things I’ve never had and always wanted - remote start and remote windows up and down.
> 
> ...


I've never really wanted remote start, but then it's not really cold here all that often. I've driven cars with the proximity key, and I loved that.

Automatic lights I can take or leave. When I have them I like them, but when I don't, I don't miss them.

My old Mercedes has the ability to raise/lower the windows from outside with the fob, which I really like.

I remember driving a car (probably something I rented) that did have the dimming side-view mirrors. It was a very nice difference.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 29, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> One option I’ve had a few times and thought was a big deal - moonroof.
> 
> I only opened it a few times and closed it almost immediately every time because it annoyed me. I’d tilt it open sometimes though. And I’d usually keep the screen thing that covers it closed. I questioned why I actually wanted one after my first car with it. My Highlander doesn’t have one and I don’t miss it st all.
> 
> A friend had a Honda Element with the long moonroof. Really cool and roomy in the back for passengers, but just ugly as all hell IMO. He hated the way it looked and drove, but his kids loved riding in it, so he liked it. I guess it’s like a Rolls Royce in a way - it’s the car you’re driven in, not the car you drive.  Bentley is the car you drive.


I use mine frequently. It's less noisy or buffeting than having a window down. I've even been known to use it with the AC on in the Summer, because why not? And it absolutely rocks for getting the hot air out of my black-on-black car in the Summer.


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## JR 137 (Dec 29, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I've never really wanted remote start, but then it's not really cold here all that often. I've driven cars with the proximity key, and I loved that.
> 
> Automatic lights I can take or leave. When I have them I like them, but when I don't, I don't miss them.
> 
> ...


Currently the remote start isn’t that big a deal anymore. I start my car on my way out to walk my daughters to school. Their school is literally around the corner, so when I get back it’s just about warmed up enough.

Before this school year when my kids went to the school I work at, going downstairs and out to start the car and coming back up was just another step in the whole process that made me later to work every day.

And I’d love tinting side views. Didn’t know they existed until your post.


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## JR 137 (Dec 29, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I use mine frequently. It's less noisy or buffeting than having a window down. I've even been known to use it with the AC on in the Summer, because why not? And it absolutely rocks for getting the hot air out of my black-on-black car in the Summer.


I used to tilt it up to keep the car from getting too hot while it was parked. After it rained unexpectedly a few times with it open, I stopped doing that.

Every one of them I’ve had has been too noisy and not enough air circulation to be worth the hassle. Maybe that little fin thing that sticks up wasn’t ever big enough?


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## pdg (Dec 29, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Cruise is an absolute must for me. If I have to use the gas pedal for an hour straight on the highway, my right hip starts to cramp up. The only solution at that point is to stop and walk for 5-10 minutes. I won't even rent a car without cruise control.



I use the cruise bloody everywhere 

There are lots of 30 and 40 mph speed limits through villages, towns and stuff around here - it's great there. 

My car will happily sit in cruise at 30 in 4th (manual 'box), then bump it up to 60mph as you leave the limit.

I never thought I'd even think this, but the one extra toy I'd like is adaptive cruise.


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## pdg (Dec 29, 2018)

Oh, yeah, forgot kinda...


Moonroof?

What?

Pics?


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 29, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> I used to tilt it up to keep the car from getting too hot while it was parked. After it rained unexpectedly a few times with it open, I stopped doing that.
> 
> Every one of them I’ve had has been too noisy and not enough air circulation to be worth the hassle. Maybe that little fin thing that sticks up wasn’t ever big enough?


I have never quite learned. I've had my car full-on rained in with the thing open (not just tilted). I've opened my door to find the entirety of Autumn in the driver seat. I still forget and leave it open sometimes.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 29, 2018)

pdg said:


> I use the cruise bloody everywhere
> 
> There are lots of 30 and 40 mph speed limits through villages, towns and stuff around here - it's great there.
> 
> ...


I thought I'd like adaptive cruise until I used it in moderately heavy traffic that was moving steadily. You know, that kind of traffic where nobody quite leaves as much room as they should. Well, it left more room than most people would, so people kept pulling into that space from other lanes. Of course, when they pulled in, it slowed down to restore the distance to the new car-in-front. I felt like I was driving in reverse.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 29, 2018)

pdg said:


> Oh, yeah, forgot kinda...
> 
> 
> Moonroof?
> ...


Moonroof/sunroof - the terms are somewhat interchangeable now, though I think they originally had some real distinction.


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## pdg (Dec 29, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Moonroof/sunroof - the terms are somewhat interchangeable now, though I think they originally had some real distinction.



I've never known of the term moonroof being used here, and I've got (/had) some pretty old literature that refers to the "sunshine roof" being a dealer fitted option...


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 29, 2018)

pdg said:


> I've never known of the term moonroof being used here, and I've got (/had) some pretty old literature that refers to the "sunshine roof" being a dealer fitted option...


I think when "moonroof" came into usage here, the difference was that it either didn't open at all, or only tilted up at the back, while a "sunroof" could be entirely opened (by sliding it back or, like my old Toyota truck, removing it entirely).


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## jks9199 (Dec 29, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> This is huge. It’s amazing how hard it is to do the kata reversed or starting facing a different direction in the normal space.


I've always had my students face different directions, do forms in different directions... My teacher did it to me, I do it to them.  

But there's a method to the madness.  I've seen people get totally lost when they do a form and they don't have the cues they're used to from the training hall.  Our forms teach principles; if you focus solely on the motions and "bearings" and not the underlying concept or principle, all you've done is learned to dance.  I once had someone tell a student to remove a key principle from one of our forms because they just didn't understand it...


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## jks9199 (Dec 29, 2018)

Still catching up with this thread... but about to get interrupted, so some thoughts...

Kata or forms or tuls or patterns or shadowboxing... the words vary by arts, but most have some type of solo practice that preserves proven combinations or tactics and principles.  How deeply they go depends on the art, on the culture that underlies that art, the teacher, and the student.  The relationship there is a Venn diagram, not a hierarchy.  

They serve different purposes.  The manual of arms for the M-14 rifle is a form.  You're not going to fight with it -- it's a demonstration of skill and familiarity, among other things.  Some forms are demonstration pieces, done for the performance value.  Some forms are teaching tools -- they contain principles and concepts and were assembled to preserve and pass those down, maybe openly, maybe not.  Some forms are "mere" exercises to build balance or develop other attributes.  Some are catalogs of the overall system.  Some are the entire system... if properly understood.  Some are meditative exercises...  So, ask yourself the purpose of the form you are working on -- then don't read too much into some of them.

Then there are 2 person forms...  Exercises done with a partner in a way that controls things and allows the partner to learn a functional principle, in application.  They're really a whole 'nother discussion...


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## _Simon_ (Dec 30, 2018)

pdg said:


> Oh, yeah, forgot kinda...
> 
> 
> Moonroof?
> ...


A moonroof is for werewolfs. Gives extra coverage when needed to avoid awkward situations.


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## JR 137 (Dec 30, 2018)

pdg said:


> Oh, yeah, forgot kinda...
> 
> 
> Moonroof?
> ...





gpseymour said:


> Moonroof/sunroof - the terms are somewhat interchangeable now, though I think they originally had some real distinction.


I thought initially sunroof was metal and moonroof was glass? Or sunroof was the cheap manual pop up/tilt up type while moonroof fully slid open?

I haven’t seen the term sunroof used on a new car by the manufacturers in quite some time. All the ones I’ve seen call it a moonroof.

Time for a google search.

Edit: Websites are all over the place, contradicting each other. I guess it’s whatever you want to call it. Or better yet whatever the manufacturer wants to call it.


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## DUO ART (Dec 30, 2018)

OP you are so right. During my  yellow belt test, all belts brown and down had to do EVERYTHING they were ever taught.  Some had forgotten  how to start the Pinan's from orange and beyond.  Lets just say sensi was not happy with them that day at all. It came back to them when it was imparted that failure was in their immediate future. 

They remembered  their Pinan's after that . In fact , After that test, we all had to do basics, a lot more in class and continue to do so.  I just learned my first Pinan a week ago. I practice it at least twice a day, while we are on Christmas break. 

After that testing experience and even talking to a black belt instructor in a totally different art, I decided then and there that  I have to practice all my moves form white to whatever always.   My friend, in that separate art,  emphised to me practice and never forget your basics.  She also said without them, your technique will be horrible and you will not advance .


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## pdg (Dec 30, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> I thought initially sunroof was metal and moonroof was glass? Or sunroof was the cheap manual pop up/tilt up type while moonroof fully slid open?
> 
> I haven’t seen the term sunroof used on a new car by the manufacturers in quite some time. All the ones I’ve seen call it a moonroof.
> 
> ...



Well, I checked multiple new car web pages, older car spec sheets and stuff - absolutely no mention of moonroof at all.

It's almost universally a sunroof, irrespective of tilt/slide/fixed/glass/solid - with a couple of exceptions...

There's a targa top (the section of roof between the A and B pillars is removable).

There's a panoramic roof (almost the entire roof is glass, usually with a retractable internal cover - my car has this).


I suppose moonroof must be an American thing...


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## JR 137 (Dec 30, 2018)

pdg said:


> Well, I checked multiple new car web pages, older car spec sheets and stuff - absolutely no mention of moonroof at all.
> 
> It's almost universally a sunroof, irrespective of tilt/slide/fixed/glass/solid - with a couple of exceptions...
> 
> ...


Moonroof vs. Sunroof: What Are the Differences? - The Allstate Blog

https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/sunroof-vs-moonroof

Quite possibly an American thing. Many websites come up here arguing the differences. I’m sure your search brings up stuff relevant to your side of the pond.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 31, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Moonroof vs. Sunroof: What Are the Differences? - The Allstate Blog
> 
> https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/sunroof-vs-moonroof
> 
> Quite possibly an American thing. Many websites come up here arguing the differences. I’m sure your search brings up stuff relevant to your side of the pond.


And now, when someone searches for this, MT will also be in the mix, debating the differences.


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## pdg (Dec 31, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Moonroof vs. Sunroof: What Are the Differences? - The Allstate Blog
> 
> https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/sunroof-vs-moonroof
> 
> Quite possibly an American thing. Many websites come up here arguing the differences. I’m sure your search brings up stuff relevant to your side of the pond.



Indeed, almost zero 'local' though, everything I found was US biased.


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## KenpoMaster805 (Jan 28, 2019)

I love doing kata its my favorite thing to do  i practice ka ta everyday i go at in the house


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