# Mentality, adrenaline, and the will to injure...



## squirepens (May 13, 2004)

I've been thinking alot about the mentality required to become skilled in a knife encounter. Sure I've punched people before, but cutting or stabbing someone is completely different. If I punch you in the gut, it's going to hurt. But I know deep in my mind you'll probably get better (although I'd probably be upset if you did die). However, when I cut someone with a knife, lots of bad things are going to happen, blood loss, scars, death, infection, and lots of other problems are likely to occur from the lacerations inflicted. Of course if you have to draw a knife you're probably in danger of dying so you'll do anything to survive. But you can't tell me there's NO strange feelings afterwards. A few years ago in one of the 2 fights I've ever been in I punched a guy in the eye and broke his face bone (not sure if that's what you call it) around his eye. Needless to say the encounter ended, but even though it was a necessity I felt kinda bad afterwards. You know like " Geez I could've just kicked him in the nads ya know? ". Anyways, I guess my question is this, is there any special training or genetic makeup or whatever required to get to the point where these things don't matter? Where you can willingly cut or kill an attacker and feel no guilt? I've always had a special affinity for knives and such, but if I ever had to cut someone I'd probably feel bad, especially if they died. Any replies are appreciated. Thanks !!!

Squirepens


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## c2kenpo (May 13, 2004)

> Anyways, I guess my question is this, is there any special training or genetic makeup or whatever required to get to the point where these things don't matter? Where you can willingly cut or kill an attacker and feel no guilt?



My question would be Why would you want to? I train with a live blade as well and have learned to respect that blade to its fullest realizing it's harmful potential. The knife was invented to CUT and PENETRATE and SLICE open it's target. This was first discoverd by primeval man, and since then have been a tool that we used and then a WEAPON.

I would sincerly hope that after you broke your opponents orbital socket that after your adrenaline calmed down and you had time to reflect yes you had an emotional response but one you may not have liked. 



> I've always had a special affinity for knives and such, but if I ever had to cut someone I'd probably feel bad, especially if they died.



Good. I would as well, I would have wished that whatever the event was that took place had occurred differently but it didn't and I will have to live with whatever the consequences of my actions are from that day forward. All of us have to. I wish you well in your journey, but please do not look for ways of cutting back emotional responses as a regiment to better self-defense.

To the members of the board once again this goes back to another topic we had about How much force to use? Cheap Shots? The right to use self-defense, etc. 
Please do not take my words out of context. I do believe in self-defense or I would not be a student of the martial arts, however I put back in place the fact that we have all of these wonderfull skills to use and train with, but the one thing we dont discuss much is the mental and emotional accumen that comes with the martial arts and the possible side-effects of our choices as martial artists. Please remember this when discussing topics of this nature.

Getting off my :soapbox: 

David Gunzburg


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## squirepens (May 13, 2004)

c2kenpo said:
			
		

> ..., but the one thing we dont discuss much is the mental and emotional accumen that comes with the martial arts and the possible side-effects of our choices as martial artists. Please remember this when discussing topics of this nature.


Sorry if that's a touchy subject here. I'm new so I don't really know the kinda vibe to stay away from, I just wanted to bring it up, cause even though I'm really new at martial arts and all, I think that the proper mentality is required to be a good fighter, and I was just wondering what kind of things you guys have experienced. I'll be 20 next month, so I haven't much experience in fighting ( or life for that matter ), so looking to others is a good way to get some tips on these things. Again sorry if it offends to talk about such things.

Squirepens


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## c2kenpo (May 13, 2004)

squirepens said:
			
		

> Sorry if that's a touchy subject here. I'm new so I don't really know the kinda vibe to stay away from, I just wanted to bring it up, cause even though I'm really new at martial arts and all, I think that the proper mentality is required to be a good fighter, and I was just wondering what kind of things you guys have experienced. I'll be 20 next month, so I haven't much experience in fighting ( or life for that matter ), so looking to others is a good way to get some tips on these things. Again sorry if it offends to talk about such things.
> 
> Squirepens



Well welcome to the boards Squirepens, Your topic is just one that leads to many views of interpretation. Welcome to the martial arts a journey that filled with challenges and obstacles perserrverance can overcome and a whole new world can be opend up to you.

Youth does have some shortcomings...Everyone knows that...lost of decisions I'm sure I could have made better at your age if I had the wisdom. Good to see you reaching out for some of that and here is a grerat place for all of us to share those ideas.
First I wasnt' offended by your original post I was however CONCERNED. 
I have met people who say " I wanna learn karate so I can kick someones butt!!" or "Yeah..Be cool to be able to snap someones neck!!" 
So when you asked about how to overcome feelings of guilt over hurting someone especially when using a blade you can see where I might be concerned, If you were at our studio I would be severly concerend about your training regiment.

To me learning how to defend agasint a blade is nice but do take the time to learn how to use one and learn to respect it. In a class I took about knife fighting we used rubber knives and "stabbed" each other for 15 minutes to "get the feel" I will tell you it was one of the most uncomfortable/enlighting experiences of my ma carrer. We then took a live blad and "tapped and scraped" the edge of the blade and "poked" the tip of the blde on varous body parts arms, legs, neck, to get the feel of a blad being used on us.

I hope you understand my concerens about your post. But I am sure you ment them in the best way of training for yourself.

Respectfully

David Gunzburg


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## Emptyglass (May 13, 2004)

Hi there:



			
				squirepens said:
			
		

> Sorry if that's a touchy subject here. I'm new so I don't really know the kinda vibe to stay away from, I just wanted to bring it up, cause even though I'm really new at martial arts and all, I think that the proper mentality is required to be a good fighter, and I was just wondering what kind of things you guys have experienced. I'll be 20 next month, so I haven't much experience in fighting ( or life for that matter ), so looking to others is a good way to get some tips on these things. Again sorry if it offends to talk about such things.
> 
> Squirepens



Actually, I think there's nothing wrong with your question as I don't think you're necessarily looking for an answer on what you have to do in order to not have those feelings. Don't stop asking questions. Questions are good. Anyone who tells you different is a dumbass in my opinion. Asking questions respectfully is a VERY good idea. But the idea that you are asking a question is nothing to be ashamed or afraid of and it is the sign of a good student.

Becoming a good fighter is another story. Personally I try to be good at taking care of myself in tough situations. Being a good fighter doesn't have much interest for me as I don't look at myself as a fighter. However, if I am forced to fight, I certainly want to be the best I can be. A subtle difference there but important I think.

If I can offer a suggestion, pick up the book - On Killing by Lt. Colonel Dave Grossman. He's a former army ranger and paratrooper who has dedicated his time to a science he terms killology (defined as: The scholarly study of the destructive act, just as sexology  is the scholarly study of the procreative act. In particular,  killology focuses on the reactions of healthy people in killing  circumstances (such as police and military in combat) and the  factors that enable and restrain killing in these situations.)

His website is here: http://www.killology.com/index.htm

Contrary to what you might first think, Col. Grossman is concerned that there is too much violence (in media, modern culture etc...). He's also concerned about the effect it is having on people in terms of willingness to commit violence upon each other and that it needs to be halted so that modern life does not become (more) of a literal (if not figurative) battlefield. 

Chapter Five of the book is entitled Killing at Edged-Weapons Range: An "Intimate Brutality" and it (and the rest of the book) would be good reading for anyone who thinks they need to become a "sooper-tuff-guy-knife-fighting-badass" who will "gut their enemies into submission" (heavy sarcasm intended here).

Check it out if you get a chance. It's a good read and he has some good ideas in my opinion. Plus he's had to deal with his exposure to violence and has lived the life that "sooper-macho-fighting-ninjas" fantasize about without leaving the safety of their bedrooms.

Hope this helped you out. Good luck!

Rich Curren


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## Cruentus (May 13, 2004)

A lot of "knife nuts" and martial artists who carry knives as a force multiplier aren't thinking about the psychology behind using the blade. Most people are completely unprepared to stab someone psychologically. People have a psychological aversion to using the blade in general because they know that death to their attacker is a possability, and most people who aren't aggressive sociopaths have a psychological aversion to killing a member of their own species, even if they are being brutally attacked. Especially as close range as the knife, where you can't avoid the fact that the person you are stabbing is human. This is true accrossed the board in the animal kingdom; most animals fight to posture, not to kill a member of their own species. People particularly are psychologically averse to stabbing, particularly men. Stabbing is an "intimate" act. The blade becomes an extension of the body, or apendage, and to stab someone with an apendage to take away their power is psychologically akin to rape. Most people couldn't rape someone else.

So, there are a host of problems that someone could run into if they carry a blade for self-defense that could result in an inability to use the tool. I think that you are very observant, squirepens, to ask about this.

However, the positive side of the knife is that it is the best self-defense tool you could carry, if you could overcome its limitations.

What I suggest is first of all train in drawing and cutting drills so that this will become muscle memory. Secondly, train with cutting live targets (paper, cardboard, meat, meat wrapped in clothing, like jean or a sleeve). You will learn how the knife cuts, and what types of cuts are non-lethal. Thirdly, train with a partner to only slice, and only slice non-lethal targets (mainly, targets where there is bone rather then flesh, and above the elbow). Train to slice limbs rather then close and kill, and train to back away from your attacker while slicing the limbs that come into your range. Get this stuff muscle memory. And last, only carry a knife with an inch and a half blade. It's long enough to do damage, but would take some effort to be used to kill. Lastly, make sure you you know your state laws regarding carrying and using the blade.

Then, get your mind ready, and be sure in your head that you would be ready to use your blade that you carry.

If you know how to use your blade in a non-lethal manner, then most likely the psychological aversion won't kick in, and you'll be able to use the thing if needed. You don't need to have the mindset to kill, just to slice and escape.

I teach seminars on this very thing.      
 :asian:


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## Cruentus (May 13, 2004)

I also second Rich Currans suggestion if you want to further your education. Grossmans book is a good read for all martial artists and military professionals.


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## Tgace (May 13, 2004)

But dont "dehumanize" your opponent right?


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## Cruentus (May 13, 2004)

Tgace said:
			
		

> But dont "dehumanize" your opponent right?



Do what you got to do, just don't torture them!  :uhyeah:


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## Emptyglass (May 13, 2004)

Squirepens



			
				Tulisan said:
			
		

> Lastly, make sure you you know your state laws regarding carrying and using the blade.
> :asian:



Personally I would rank this first before you even thought of using a knife as a tool for self-defense but that's just my opinion. All American law in regards to justification for the use of force in defense of oneself or another would be good idea to find out about if you are interested.

Rich Curren


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## Cruentus (May 13, 2004)

Emptyglass said:
			
		

> Squirepens
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well, yea, understand both your federal and state laws regarding lethal force and carrying a blade before you carry one. I don't care if they learn it before or after they train, just as long as they are both familiar and trained before they carry.


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## Tgace (May 13, 2004)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> Do what you got to do, just don't torture them! :uhyeah:


Touche:rofl:


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## squirepens (May 14, 2004)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> A lot of "knife nuts" and martial artists who carry knives as a force multiplier aren't thinking about the psychology behind using the blade. Most people are completely unprepared to stab someone psychologically. People have a psychological aversion to using the blade in general because they know that death to their attacker is a possability, and most people who aren't aggressive sociopaths have a psychological aversion to killing a member of their own species,   ...People particularly are psychologically averse to stabbing, particularly men. Stabbing is an "intimate" act. The blade becomes an extension of the body, or apendage, and to stab someone with an apendage to take away their power is psychologically akin to rape. Most people couldn't rape someone else....
> 
> 
> :asian:


This is EXACTLY what I was talking about. As mentioned a lot of people carry knives and have not even been in violent situations or any sort of REAL encounters outside of practice. When the situation does arise to use a blade for defense they can't act on it. Much like people who carry a gun, but just can't get the will to shoot. I've heard about people who were attacked, who carried guns and still got hurt or killed and have asked myself " But they had a gun, why'd they let it happen? ", and I think this is why. Because they can't bring themselves to hurt someone that badly. BTW just so I don't sound like the above mentioned "aggressive sociopath" I was mostly asking because what good does it do to carry a weapon you can't use right?

Squirepens


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## Cruentus (May 14, 2004)

squirepens said:
			
		

> This is EXACTLY what I was talking about. As mentioned a lot of people carry knives and have not even been in violent situations or any sort of REAL encounters outside of practice. When the situation does arise to use a blade for defense they can't act on it. Much like people who carry a gun, but just can't get the will to shoot. I've heard about people who were attacked, who carried guns and still got hurt or killed and have asked myself " But they had a gun, why'd they let it happen? ", and I think this is why. Because they can't bring themselves to hurt someone that badly. BTW just so I don't sound like the above mentioned "aggressive sociopath" I was mostly asking because what good does it do to carry a weapon you can't use right?
> 
> Squirepens



Pulling a trigger is a lot easier then using a knife. I also agree with you on carrying a weapon; it's useless if you can't use it. But, with training, I feel that almost anyone can be able to use it to a degree.


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## loki09789 (May 14, 2004)

squirepens said:
			
		

> This is EXACTLY what I was talking about. As mentioned a lot of people carry knives and have not even been in violent situations or any sort of REAL encounters outside of practice. When the situation does arise to use a blade for defense they can't act on it. Much like people who carry a gun, but just can't get the will to shoot. I've heard about people who were attacked, who carried guns and still got hurt or killed and have asked myself " But they had a gun, why'd they let it happen? ", and I think this is why. Because they can't bring themselves to hurt someone that badly. BTW just so I don't sound like the above mentioned "aggressive sociopath" I was mostly asking because what good does it do to carry a weapon you can't use right?
> 
> Squirepens


"Know thyself" and the law and train in the things that balance effectiveness with what you are willing to do and not to.  Of course through the process of training you will find that this balance will shift from time to time.  Whether the tools you decide to train in are just your body weapons or extentions of batons, knifes and firearms you have to know what you are willing to do, need to do and find a balance.

People have mentioned Grossman's book as a good read.  It is interesting and he makes some good points about being cautious and responsible about violence and how you promote it/train for it and view it on a social level.  As a martial artist in training though, the part that jumped out was the idea of using body shaped targets under contextual training situations to make  your trained responses as automatic and quick as possible.  The question is really what do you think about the 'moment' before and after you have done it - in training or reality?  If the whole thing leaves a bad taste in your mouth, it might be a lesson in making sure you are well rounded in awareness and other skills that would reduce the likelyhood of using that knife or other weapons.  It might also mean that you need to find another program that will help you find that personal balance between necessity and personal comfort....

I have had friends who were all jazzed about hunting with their fathers when they were old enough.  When the time came to go, they either hated it or loved it.  When they got that chance to take the shot they did or didn't suffer "buck fever" (lock up).  the question is do you know why you are doing it and are you there for reasons that you are committed to?  I was fine with hunting because I understood why I wanted to and thought it was worth the effort.  After I really shot a deer, it was still okay with me to go hunting.  If I had decided it wasn't for me, I would have stuck to fishing 

I think things like hunting and other woodscraft skills can really help you fiind those life/death survival answers that can translate to martial arts/self defense training.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (May 14, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> "Know thyself" and the law and train in the things that balance effectiveness with what you are willing to do and not to.
> 
> People have mentioned Grossman's book as a good read. It is interesting and he makes some good points about being cautious and responsible about violence and how you promote it/train for it and view it on a social level. As a martial artist in training though, the part that jumped out was the idea of using body shaped targets under contextual training situations to make your trained responses as automatic and quick as possible. The question is really what do you think about the 'moment' before and after you have done it - in training or reality? If the whole thing leaves a bad taste in your mouth, it might be a lesson in making sure you are well rounded in awareness and other skills that would reduce the likelyhood of using that knife or other weapons. It might also mean that you need to find another program that will help you find that personal balance between necessity and personal comfort....
> 
> ...


1st time I went bow hunting, I kilt me critter, and felt miserable about it for eons. Still get a sick feeling in the pit of my gut when I recall looking at the poor little guy. It was an unecessary act of violence against an innocent. The second time I hunted, I was actually with a group of friends in the woods, basically lost & a little panicked. Shot a small doe, and felt no guilt (hell, lost damn near 20 lbs on that trip...I was hungry). I still can freak myself out if I stop to wonderr if the critter had a family, etc. So, having a conscious is a good thing, especially if you plan an act of violence (or plan for an act of violence) against another human being.

Also, have cut, and been cut. Odd thing about being cut: The fear of the knife is much more surreal and prominent in your mind then the injury the knife causes. My partner and I intervened on a 3-on-1 assault, with knives. I got zipped on the inside of my forearm, and he got stabbed square in the abdomen. Didn't even know it till he felt "short of breath", several minutes after we dispatched the bad guys. We thought the blood on him was from my arm. 

As the stabb*er*, I went into an auto-pilot mode of a defense technique with a disarm, followed by cutting the guy with his own knife, then stabbing him. 3 things stuck out to me.
1. The cutting was effortless...Adrenaline in place, I wasn't even sure if I got him, till the red started flowing.
2. Stabbing a thrust into a person is harder, physically, then it looks. Live flesh is resistant to large puncture, and muscles "grab" the blade, making retraction very hard...I left it there.
3. No matter what kind of auto-pilot you're on when you defend and cut, auto eventually turns off. And your mind goes over, and over, and over everything that happened in minute detail. Years pass, and it still rolls over in your head. Being "justified" doesn't keep the freaky dreams away: It only helps to lower the pulse rate via rationalization after you've been forced awake by the freaky dreams.

You'll still auto when you have to, if that's in your training; I've never hesitated to ready my reach for my belt if I felt cornered and in necessity. But after the garbage has passed, my mind still walks down paths it's worn down before, wondering if I was just about to create another cause for bizarre dreams.

Don't try to "conquer your fear"...it's there for a reason. To keep you healthy on one hand, and out of trouble on the other. First time I was shot at, dropped behind the bumper of a car...then remembered shooting holes clean through cars in the desert. Talk about an underwear changing moment! Now, I go out of my way to avoid circumstances where I may find myself in that position. As for liability of being the user of a knife? Watch Oz, on HBO. If you feel you can thrive happily in that sort of environment, then don't sweat the legalities. Otherwise, allow your fear of what happens in prison at midnight to stay your hand when your common sense isn't enough.

Don't lose your conscience. It's what seperates humans from animals, or at least checks some humans from acting like animals. Don't lose your fear. Fear is for the living, and is a natural instinct designed to help keep you alive. Remember: there are old soldiers, and bold soldiers, but there are no old+bold soldiers. 

Finally, follow your heart. The only person with whom you absolutely must live with for the rest fo your life is yourself. So you need to be OK with who you are, and what you do, if you want that co-habitation with self to be a peaceful one. PTSD sucks and does bad things to good people, so live accordingly.

Regards,

Dr. Dave


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## Cruentus (May 14, 2004)

What is it that you do for a living where you would have been caught in a situation like that?


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (May 14, 2004)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> What is it that you do for a living where you would have been caught in a situation like that?


At which point in my life?

Some of these were as bouncer, some as nut-job vigilante trying to stop mindless gay-bashings in Laguna Beach, CA, and some as "security consultant" in Europe & the Middle east. Much of it as "Crusader Rabbit" bozo with kharmic hiccup that seems to put me right where some kinda poop is happening. (Been 1st on scene for a veritable plethora of TA's, happening a heartbeat before I get there. Meanwhile, know plenty of folks in same area who have never even seen one except during freeway cleanup).

Tried the LEO thing; too many details to memorize.

One nuts part about having ADHD as a kid, and living though it long enough to have it as an adult...there is a propensity to seek high-stimulus situations...about the only time the mind wakes up, and turns fully "on".


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## Cruentus (May 14, 2004)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> At which point in my life?
> 
> Some of these were as bouncer, some as nut-job vigilante trying to stop mindless gay-bashings in Laguna Beach, CA, and some as "security consultant" in Europe & the Middle east. Much of it as "Crusader Rabbit" bozo with kharmic hiccup that seems to put me right where some kinda poop is happening. (Been 1st on scene for a veritable plethora of TA's, happening a heartbeat before I get there. Meanwhile, know plenty of folks in same area who have never even seen one except during freeway cleanup).
> 
> ...



Just wondering...I always like to ask.
 :asian:


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