# I want to buy a sword. What brand and size should I get?



## kip42 (Jun 11, 2011)

What is the traditional Bujinkan sword length? Did they ever use double sided swords?

I have the cash now to purchase one and one later. I realize that I am not at the level yet to use one but I still want one. Who makes the strongest, longest lasting, best built swords? How does Cold Steel compare to the combat proven ones used a long time ago? What size and brand should I consider?

http://www.coldsteel.com/japanwarrior.html

http://www.coldsteel.com/japanimperial.html

I want the traditional sized Ninja sword that is made with the proven blade type and process that made the Katana legendary for have a blade that was razor sharp and would not dull.


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## jks9199 (Jun 11, 2011)

You've got a lot of myths tied up there.  Any blade will dull as the edge cuts; the Japanese didn't have some sort of magical steel that never dulled.

If you want a traditional style blade, look for a manufacturer who makes traditional blades.  That's not Cold Steel.  Cold Steel makes good blades, but they're factory produced.  Lots of experienced sword art practitioners have reported being less than satisfied with the weight & balance.

But...  Why get a live blade now at all?  It's an invitation to get hurt...  

Have you asked your instructor for recommendations?


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## Jon-Bhoy (Jun 11, 2011)

> *Have you asked your instructor for recommendations? 		*



Quoted and bolded to re-emphasize.


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## Stealthy (Jun 11, 2011)

kip42 said:


> I have the cash now to purchase one and one later. Who makes the strongest, longest lasting, best built swords? How does Cold Steel compare to the combat proven ones used a long time ago?


 

You need one of these.

http://www.aoi-art.com/sword/katana/main.html


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## Sanke (Jun 11, 2011)

Hi Kip. 

Before my instructor gets here and says this, you don't need a sword, much less a sharp one. It will on no way help you train, and it will most certainly not make you anymore of a ninja. 
Honestly, the best you're going to get is a wallhanger, because trust me, you CANNOT afford anything close to what youre looking for. 

I've followed a number of threads you've posted in or started, honestly, you've not listened to any of the advice given so far. If you want some advice, I hope you listen to this:
DONT waste your money, you DON'T need a sword, TALK to your instructor, and for the sake of stressing the point, if you ignore this and do get a sword, DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES swing it around, and certainly NOT around other people. Even if it isn't a traditional blade, sharp is sharp. Above all else, be safe, but I'd really recommend following the advice that the more senior members here have given you, because honestly, they know alot more about this than you do, and they are right. 

Hoping you don't injure yourself at the least,

Sanke


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## Kage-Ronin (Jun 11, 2011)

http://www.j-armory.com/index.html

I own a custom blade from this company. I highly recommend them.


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## Tanaka (Jun 11, 2011)

Unless you are just trying to give us a topic to talk about and discuss. If you really have to ask us those questions. Then you most likely(or more than likely) do not need to be getting a live blade. Unless it's going to be sitting on a stand or for show. I don't think anyone legitimate here is going to recommend something for you on this matter. Because none of them want to be responsible for getting someone hurt. After reading your post; it will raise many red flags with them.


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## Chris Parker (Jun 12, 2011)

Sanke said:


> Hi Kip.
> 
> Before my instructor gets here and says this......


 
A valient effort, but I'm not really just going to let this one slide....



kip42 said:


> What is the traditional Bujinkan sword length? Did they ever use double sided swords?
> 
> I have the cash now to purchase one and one later. I realize that I am not at the level yet to use one but I still want one. Who makes the strongest, longest lasting, best built swords? How does Cold Steel compare to the combat proven ones used a long time ago? What size and brand should I consider?
> 
> ...


 
Kip.

For the love of all good, holy, and sweetly spiced in the world, what on earth are you doing?!?!? You have posted this type of question a number of times, and each time been told how far off you are, only to have you come back and do it all again! For crying out loud, stop, okay? To kill this idea of yours, let's rip it apart, shall we?



kip42 said:


> What is the traditional Bujinkan sword length?


 
There isn't a "traditional Bujinkan sword length", the standard bokken is used in classes, you have been told this before. Don't ask again.



kip42 said:


> Did they ever use double sided swords?


 
The only Japanese swords with double edges were incredibly rare, and nothing to do with any of the systems in the Bujinkan. The most famous is known as the Kogarasu Maru, and is a single Tachi, rather than a type. This question is based in fantasy, don't ask again.



kip42 said:


> I have the cash now to purchase one and one later. I realize that I am not at the level yet to use one but I still want one.


 
Having the money to "buy a sword now, and one later" just sounds bizarre. Especially when you then follow up by stating that you know you have no reason or the requisite skill and experience to justify having one. I advise re-examining your priorities and putting your money towards something that could actually help you, such as actual training tools, training aids, reference material, and so on. Your instructor should be the best person to ask for such advice as to what you should get, and in what order.



kip42 said:


> Who makes the strongest, longest lasting, best built swords? How does Cold Steel compare to the combat proven ones used a long time ago? What size and brand should I consider?
> 
> http://www.coldsteel.com/japanwarrior.html
> 
> [URL="http://www.coldsteel.com/japanimperial.html"]http://www.coldsteel.com/japanimperial.html[/URL]


 
For the love of sandwiches....

http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=89440

http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=91850

You are asking the same thing you have asked and been answered on before, the entire premise of your question is based in pure fantasy, and has no reality to it whatsoever. Don't ask it again.



kip42 said:


> I want the traditional sized Ninja sword that is made with the proven blade type and process that made the Katana legendary for have a blade that was razor sharp and would not dull.


 
You have absolutely no idea what on earth you're talking about, don't ask this again.

I'm sorry if I'm wrong here, but I'm starting to think that frankly, you're just here to troll, asking about movie-fantasy ideas in order to rile us up (seems to get a certain reaction out of me when you keep going with it, so well done if that's it). You don't listen to the answers you are provided with, you ask the same things again and again, disappear for a few months only to return with the same questions again.... honestly, if you're not trolling, then you really need to get your head out of the fantasy. And listen to what you're being told.

Right now there is no reason to encourage you or answer your questions, especially not to provide any recommendations as you show no ability to discern what is good or bad.

Do not buy a sword.

Stop living in fantasy land.

Okay?


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## Sanke (Jun 12, 2011)

I'd also just like to throw this out there:
Does no one at cold steel actually know how to use the weapons they make? :S they seem to make an awful lot of them, I just figured at least one of would know how to actually cut with them...


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## jks9199 (Jun 12, 2011)

Lynn Thompson plays with most of the stuff Cold Steel makes.  Some of it IS good.  And, from all the accounts I've read, most of it is solid and well made technically or from a manufacturing standpoint.  I think some of the issue is just that they make so many different things that they just can't get some of the details right...  And I think some of them are just hard to get right without the requisite training and experience in the weapon and forgings in question.


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## Chris Parker (Jun 12, 2011)

Okay, went out, came back again. Looked at the Cold Steel pages this time, honestly mainly due to Sanke's post (you'll pay for that, by the way....), and the following must be said in regards to Cold Steel's products.

They are in no way, shape, or form, Katana or similar. They are modern, heavy, thickened primarily single edged curved blades designed for amateur "cutters" with no real understanding of what cutting is really about. The similarities are superficial in design (being in look only, not construction), and the naming is co-opted with little basis. Frankly, if they impress you as "Japanese Swords" then you have no knowledge at all, and should strive to learn before putting any hard-earned or even easily won money down on such inaccurate items.

When it comes to the "cutting and testing" videos, all they show is that the company themselves have no idea about the weapons, or their usage, and are only interested in what they can sell, and the idea of cutting for it's own sake (cause it's cool, dammit!). The examples and demonstrations given are universally terrible, and show that any piece of heavy sharp metal can cut through a number of objects, which is no surprise, nor is it in any way any indication of anything of value being offered. Their "torture tests" are even more ludicrous, frankly. If they impress you, you have no knowledge of what makes a good sword, or the way they are used. Get more education before even considering putting down any hard-earned, or easily won money on such items.

Oh, and one last thing. Size and brand? These ain't t-shirts, you know. Not the right questions, and not ones that can be answered from a distance (via a message board). Size especially needs to be done by an experienced person, and they need to see you in action with a bokken in order to give any useful advice. If they just look at you, they'll have a basic idea, but a lot more is needed than that.


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## tenzen (Jun 12, 2011)

Paul chen makes some good blades. Very sturdy and with a nice weight to them.


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## Chris Parker (Jun 12, 2011)

The Paul Chen product can suffer from poor finish and fittings in some cases, my Iaito doesn't fit it's saya, for instance. And I really would recommend against recommending anything to this poster, based on their history.


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## OKenpo942 (Jun 12, 2011)

Sorry to make light of a subject you are obviously very passionate about, Mr. Parker, however, maybe you should recommend the best and sharpest blade he can possibly afford (keeping your specifications in mind) and let him give it a whirl.

Maybe there would be a loss of digits, or perhaps a hand. I hear it is very difficult to wield a sword with a nub. 

You could probably then get a good blade really cheap... Just sayin'. .

Again, I know you are passionate about this topic and rightfully so. God bless and stay safe. This is in no way meant to offend anyone. Thanks.

James


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## yorkshirelad (Jun 12, 2011)

Jerry Seinfeld wrote a book in the mid ninetys called "Letters from a nut". He wrote to many corporations, hotels, Casinos, even the King of Tonga. The letters were all weird, but hilarious at the same time. He signed them all using the psuedonym Ted L Nancy. Each letter is shown as a facimile on one side of the page and the reply is shown opposite. The whole premise of the book is, wasting people's time with nonsense. 

I think Kip is playing the same game, but I still find all the responses funny. I know Bugei is a big part of your life Chris, and I really appreciate your contributions here, (I've learned alot from you), but sometimes I think you take things way too seriously.

Kip, go ahead and buy a sword. Pick one out that looks nice, just don't cut yourself, or anyone alse with it. Oh, and please don't take it out to the park in an attempt to impress the ladies.


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## Sukerkin (Jun 12, 2011)

Very bad advice, *YL*.  All it takes is one {expletive deleted} with a 'katana' to do something daft and all of us end up on the rack.

That's what happened in Britain and it'll happen in the States too {fingers crossed that it doesn't}.  Within a generation, it is likely that there will be hardly any JSA in Britain - which is a great shame as at one time the highly-ranked Japanese that were coming over to train us were pretty convinved that the UK would be a center of excellence for these arts.


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## yorkshirelad (Jun 12, 2011)

Sukerkin said:


> Very bad advice, *YL*. All it takes is one {expletive deleted} with a 'katana' to do something daft and all of us end up on the rack.
> 
> That's what happened in Britain and it'll happen in the States too {fingers crossed that it doesn't}. Within a generation, it is likely that there will be hardly any JSA in Britain - which is a great shame as at one time the highly-ranked Japanese that were coming over to train us were pretty convinved that the UK would be a center of excellence for these arts.


 
I don't think for one second that this Kip fella is at all serious about buying any kind of katana. He's a wind up merchant pure and simple. Why would he post such a question when he already has an instructor who can guide him? Surely his instructor has already said, "Don't worry about a katana Kip San. Here's a bokken, get your mits around that!"
We know from past threads that he hasn't got any intention to follow the advice he's been given. This is just a hobby for him, an amusing past time, posting silly questions to get the desired response. It's best not to feed him, although I do find the whole thing a tad amusing.


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## Sanke (Jun 12, 2011)

yorkshirelad said:


> I don't think for one second that this Kip fella is at all serious about buying any kind of katana. He's a wind up merchant pure and simple. Why would he post such a question when he already has an instructor who can guide him? Surely his instructor has already said, "Don't worry about a katana Kip San. Here's a bokken, get your mits around that!"
> We know from past threads that he hasn't got any intention to follow the advice he's been given. This is just a hobby for him, an amusing past time, posting silly questions to get the desired response. It's best not to feed him, although I do find the whole thing a tad amusing.



It's more a matter of if he IS actually serious, or even worse, doesn't have an instructor, and is just going off videos and forums. Honestly, I don't really want to point anyone in the right (or wrong!) direction for buying a live blade, regardless of quality, because on the off-chance that they ARE actually serious? They could hurt themselves, worse others, and just as bad have the local authorities crack down on sword-ownership laws to the point where it stops JSA practitioners from being able to train.

Here in Victoria, Australia, (Also my facts may be a bit off, feel free to correct me if you know), there were some gangs around the Asian communities that were taking cheap wallhangers and using them to initiate new members of their gangs by telling them to go and draw blood. 
The response was to crack down on sword-owners, legit or otherwise, and it is now quite difficult to get any kind of sword down here, Iaito or otherwise, without having to go through a land-slide of paperwork (that said, there are still some club memberships which entitle you to own Iaito, but I have heard they are considering revoking them as well).

So while this could just be a case of 'Don't feed the troll', I for one think it's not so bad to err on the side of caution, in case Kip actually WOULD go out and buy a live blade and do something that he, and others, would regret.

Also just on a lighter note...


Chris Parker said:


> Looked at the Cold Steel pages this time, honestly mainly due to Sanke's post (you'll pay for that, by the way....)


I have a sudden sinking feeling in my hara....


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## Stealthy (Jun 13, 2011)

OKenpo942 said:


> maybe you should recommend the best and sharpest blade he can possibly afford (keeping your specifications in mind) and let him give it a whirl.


 

I already recommended a good one above. It was only $45,000USD and has been sold now, I wonder if he got it :supcool:


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## fangjian (Jun 13, 2011)

http://sbg-sword-store.sword-buyers-guide.com/

I had a great experience through this site.


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## Ken Morgan (Jun 13, 2011)

While we may actually have trained in the JSA and know a bit about the weapon we use, 95% of the people who buy blades down at the mall/internet don't want or care to listen to our advice. This guy is going to do as he wishes with, or without any of our advice.


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## Supra Vijai (Jun 13, 2011)

Sanke said:


> Here in Victoria, Australia, (Also my facts may be a bit off, feel free to correct me if you know), there were some gangs around the Asian communities that were taking cheap wallhangers and using them to initiate new members of their gangs by telling them to go and draw blood.



I may be off as well but IIRC, it was more machetes than wall hangers. Whilst swords may have definitely been used on occassion and were certainly being imported by the container load, machetes were the more common weapon amonst the Asian gangs for a range of reasons.  Even the incident at Salt nightclub approx 8 years ago was a gang of youths with machetes waiting outside a club for someone who had exchanged a few words with them inside earlier. The night club got shut down and the crack down on bladed weapons began to really take effect. 

At the moment, if you are caught carrying any kind of weapon in Victoria without a lawful reason - for example if you are a butcher carrying your tools to work that's fine provided it's a direct route from home to work and you have the knives safely and securely stowed as well as being able to verify the employment but not if you're a martial artist carrying your weapons through the city in the middle of the day when you have no reason to be - If caught in the latter category, you face a $1000 on the spot fine for the first offence and jail time for any subsequent offences. Yet knives are the most common weapons used in street assaults here (Machetes being more in the Northern states and guns not very common at all). Ironically, as you mentioned, serious martial artists need to go through extensive background checks to obtain any sort of blade including an Iaito but I can still walk into a Sunday market and pick up a machete for around $15 with no licence required and no questions asked...and it's already sharpened and ready to go.... Scary aint it?


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## Supra Vijai (Jun 13, 2011)

Apologies to everyone else, that last post was a bit of a digression from the thread itself. Kip, listen to the people here... Or if you must buy a sword, have fun "cutting" trees or tyres in your own backyard with no spectators and post a clip on youtube. I could use a laugh in between studying for my exams.. First year forensics and criminal justice system stuff is quite dry


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## Stealthy (Jun 13, 2011)

Supra Vijai said:


> .... Scary aint it?


 
Since it looks like this thread is going there anyway, I think I'll help it along a bit with a little OTT story which may alter the way you think about edged weapons.

Convential wisdom dictates that the more powerful the weapon the more dangerous it is and to a certain extent the more socially deviant the wielder is.

During a somewhat recent trip through Asia I had this assumption turned on its head though.

My plans were to cross the border between China and North Vietnam on foot and work my way South. An apparently impossible trip which every person I spoke to about it insisted was madness.

I made it a priority to kit myself out with an edged weapon at the first available opportunity.

As it turned out the first knife I found was a very flimsy folder.

In private I went about "assessing" the knife's strengths and weaknesses to plan out potential uses for it and drill them.

Up until this point my entire plan for armed confrontation revolved around the old SAS trick of ramming them with the backpack.

When assessing any weapon (even unarmed) the point is to ask the question "if one or more attackers armed with edged weapons attacked me what could I do that would guarantee immediate immobilisation, thereby ensuring my survival?"

The problems with the little folder were it had no lock so thrusts were out and it was flimsy so dense targets like shoulders were out for slashes...in fact this knife was so weak that the ONLY reliable shot was a slash to the carotid artery. 

So naturally that is what I drilled...while desperately searching for a better knife.

Eventually I found one, a really good one.

It is rock solid, with a powerful lock and ultra sharp though it does not hold an edge and so needs to be honed often.

Now the beauty of this knife is it can easily motor through any dense target, it can hit bone and not break and can be opened easily with one hand.

This meant I could plan a reliable defense against edged weapon confrontations around dis-arms and immobilisations like hits to the wrist, shoulders and knees.

A much better solution...lets face it, slashing a 15 year old kid across the neck is a very BAD solution and one which irrespective of the kids intentions would haunt you for the rest of your life.

As it turned out I never needed it for self defense but it was reassuring to know that if I did end up in a violent confrontation I would not have to kill anyone.

The night before crossing the border I had to stay awake due to catching a gang after my bag. I scared them off but still had to make sure they didn't have another go.

While at the border I was held up by customs since they did not have an Australian Passport in their database so they scanned and entered mine into the system(if you want to know who I am, all you have to do is turn up to that border crossing with an Australian Passport and look at mine when they bring it up on the computer to compare yours to it).

While it was quite safe for me at the Border the Chinese Guards got in a huge fight, one of them was holding my passport at the time so it got a little bit wrinkled

With Respect,
Stealthy.


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## Supra Vijai (Jun 13, 2011)

Uhhh with all due respect, 2 things with that story.

1) I don't see how it's designed to change my views, or anyone else's on edged weapons. Cool story but not really a edged weapon centric story. 

2) I know who you are without flying all the way to Vietnam to check... RAMBO!


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## Chris Parker (Jun 14, 2011)

Okay, just to finish off the discussion, the occurance was involving 'samurai swords' in the mid 90's. There were some predominantly Asian-membership gangs centred around the Eatern suburb of Box Hill who had, as part of their initiation, the requirement that members attack the public with said weapons, ideally cutting them in some way (although many assaults were more about scaring people than actually physically injuring anyone). In more recent times, predominantly Vietnamese gangs around Sydney have been known to use machete's as a common assault weapon.

Everyone clear now?

Stealthy, gotta say I don't really see the point you're making with your story either... it just sounds like the way you were assessing weapons for a need you eventually (thankfully) didn't have. But I will say that this comment:



			
				Stealthy said:
			
		

> When assessing any weapon (even unarmed) the point is to ask the question "if one or more attackers armed with edged weapons attacked me what could I do that would guarantee immediate immobilisation, thereby ensuring my survival?"


 
is rather inaccurate, and pertains only to your possible situation. What you actually look at when assessing a weapon is primarily it's strengths, weaknesses, and range. From there you may look at specific situations, but to look at a specific situation first without understanding the weapon itself is going about it backwards.


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## Stealthy (Jun 14, 2011)

Chris Parker said:


> Stealthy, gotta say I don't really see the point you're making with your story either...


 
Ah, guess I should clarify then....The point was merely that having a stronger, more reliable weapon meant I had the luxury of doing LESS damage were the need to arise.

Agreed, the first thing I did was assess the weapons strengths and weaknesses but when I found it to have very few strengths and a lot of weaknesses I went on to work out exactly what the options were with it(the problem travelling on foot presented was loss of mobility due to the heavy pack so normal unarmed defenses would be too slow to stop an armed attacker).

Needless to say it was quite the relief to find I had no need for it beyond cutting up apples.


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## pgsmith (Jun 14, 2011)

Got to throw in my two cent's worth ... 
  First, the OP is probably some kid out of school for the summer who has no instructor, no plans to get an instructor, and just wants to play ninja. Lots and lots of people around the world buy 'Japanese style' swords from Hanwei, Cold Steel, or numerous other producers with the same basic idea in mind ... play with it and cut things. That's why there are so many of these companies out there now selling vaguely sword-like objects, because so many people actually buy them. There are entire web sites devoted to them and they generally manage to do it without killing themselves or others. 

  However, this is a forum devoted to serious martial artists and if they come and ask for opinions here, I believe it is our duty to emphatically point out how stupid and dangerous it is to play with a sharp sword without proper instruction and supervision. We should do our best to discourage them from 'playing ninja' and refer them to proper instruction. Of course, the idiots are free to go and be idiots, but we should never encourage their idiocy.

  Just my thoughts on it.


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## Indagator (Jun 17, 2011)

To the OP, everything that has been said here is worth taking note of. One other point that may be worth taking on board is that it can be very unwise to keep a weapon in your home that you would not feel confidently capable of defending or protecting yourself against if it were turned on you.

If the wrong sort of people found out you owned a sword, especially if you run your mouth off about it to all and sundry, it is a very real possibility that somebody may come into your home and use your own weapon against you. I know of several home invasions where compound bows, rifles, swords and other such weapons which can be found in one's home have been used as the primary assault weapon.

Do you feel that you could safely handle a situation against a live-blade katana? Personally I don't even keep my kitchen knives in a place where somebody would likely look to find them.
My hunting gear and my weapons are all in locations where I can easily access them but others would not be likely to think they would be, and most importantly I _don't tell anybody that I have them!_

To some of the others who have commented regarding the quality and accuracy of some "SLOs" out there, a wee question - what options do any of you know of for those of us out there in the working class who can't afford a lot of money for swords?
Even some Hanwei swords are pretty expensive on my income, actually I'd been thinking of getting one of theirs when I can TBH, but noticed a few people don't recommend their stuff?

Are there any swords worth having that are affordable to the working class?


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## Ken Morgan (Jun 17, 2011)

It all depends on what you are looking to use the sword for.
If you are looking for an edged weapon for home defence or to cut water bottle in the back yard, dont even **** around, buy a $15 machete. A piece of sharpened steel, is a piece of sharpened steel if this is your need. 
If you are looking for a blade for iaido practice, you can buy a fair iaito for $400 or so.


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## Indagator (Jun 18, 2011)

Got a few machetes, although they're more for keeping the yard tidy and odd jobs around the place than for home defence.

I was referring more to live blade for kenjutsu training &c.

$400.00 is a lot of money for a working class joe - that's just under 2 weeks wages for me in fact, and once bills and evrything are factored in... well, yeah. 
This is basically what I meant when asking what people such as myself ought to do? Settle for Hanwei or something, although on the forums they don't appear to have a reputation as being worthwhile, or simply accept that swords are out of reach for me, move on get over it and focus on other weapons training instead.

Not too keen on option 2.

I'd been looking at a sword from Hanwei that was live blade, carbon steel and selling for around $120.00 through a wholesaler/importer. What I have been reading made me think that it probably would be a waste of money and no good for kenjutsu training though.


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## Ken Morgan (Jun 18, 2011)

A few points.
1. You don&#8217;t need to use a live blade for iaido/kenjutsu training. In fact I would recommend not using one for many years if at all. I know of folks who practiced for 10+ years before they bought a shinken.I went 5 years before I bought one.
2. Odds are quite good that any live blade under$500 is a wall hanger that you would never use for serious practice. Not only due to safety reasons, as their manufacture is generally suspect, but the balance is likely very wrong. It was never meant to be used for practice.
3. Never use anything in the $120 range. Ever.
4. Look at the used sword market. Iaido, like all MA, has a huge dropout rate. Find someone who spent $400 on an iaito and offer them a few hundred. They may very well take it, otherwise the blade will sit in the closet forever.
5. What do you want to use the blade for? Blades are all made for specific tasks in mind. I would not use a blade made specifically for cutting in my iaido class while at the same time I would not use my iaido blade for cutting.
6. Never use anything but a bokken for partner practice.


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## Cryozombie (Jun 18, 2011)

Ken Morgan said:


> A few points.
> 2. Odds are quite good that any live blade under$500 is a wall hanger that you would never use for serious practice. Not only due to safety reasons, as their manufacture is generally suspect, but the balance is likely very wrong. It was never meant to be used for practice.
> 3. Never use anything in the $120 range. Ever.


 
I disagree. Now, understand that I am not a "Serious" sword student, we study sword in several of our ryu, and our school does Tameshigiri 2 or 3 times a year... but we are NOT a sword school.

I own a couple Hanwei swords, (Practical Plus and a Raptor) a Cheness (Oniyuri) and an Oni Forge blade (Their Togakure-ryu style Katana). At one time I had a very nice sword from Tozando that I paid almost 2k for, but when I lost my job I sold it. (Some of you may remember the pics of it I posted here on MT several years back)

For practical purposes, I have seen very little performance difference in any of those swords. I have heard that the Oni Forge swords Tsuka tend to split, but I have disassembled mine and checked it every time I have cut with it and had no issues. Now, don't get me wrong, I do not think that these are equal to a high End sword by any means, but... I have not seen these "terrible flaws" that make these un-suitable to be called swords by so many of the Eliteists who insist if your sword isn't practically papered its worthless. 

Perhaps if sword was all I studied, I would feel the need for a "high end" sword... but for the average practitioner of other arts who's training happens to include sword, I see no real disadantage to owning a "production" sword.

Your milage may vary.


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## Chris Parker (Jun 18, 2011)

Cryozombie said:


> I disagree. Now, understand that I am not a "Serious" sword student, we study sword in several of our ryu, and our school does Tameshigiri 2 or 3 times a year... but we are NOT a sword school.
> 
> I own a couple Hanwei swords, (Practical Plus and a Raptor) a Cheness (Oniyuri) and an Oni Forge blade (Their Togakure-ryu style Katana). At one time I had a very nice sword from Tozando that I paid almost 2k for, but when I lost my job I sold it. (Some of you may remember the pics of it I posted here on MT several years back)
> 
> ...


 
Hey Cryo,

I can see where you're coming from, but in regard to generic advice given over such a medium as this, I agree completely with Ken's comments. One of the reasons the "lower end" swords are not recommended is that they have a much greater risk of being flawed (such as the splitting tsuka you mention). Now, that doesn't mean that all of the weapons from a certain company will be so flawed, but a greater proportion of them will be. For instance, I have a Nami Iaito (Paul Chen/Hanwei), and the actual sword itself is pretty good (for what it is, I might add....), but the saya and habaki don't really fit, amongst a few other things. The Wakizashi I got to match, on the other hand, is fine.

And while a non-sword specific school might not have such demands, wall-hanger blades are not so good at all. When comparing the more entry-level with a higher end one, though, really, the difference is noticed with greater experience. It's like musical instruments, I had a guitar that was $800, and another that was $4,500. Now, feature wise, they were pretty similar, one was an entry level PRS, the other was a Parker Fly... and a number of people couldn't tell why I'd have the Parker if the PRS was so much cheaper. But put them in the hands of a semi-serious guitarist.... I guess my point is that a beginner/intermediate student (in a school that isn't a "sword" school) really doesn't need a $2,000 blade. But that doesn't mean that they have to go to items that have issues of balance, fittings, weight, build quality, and so forth. The more entry level Tozando ones are a better fit, if sword is going to be a focus at all.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jun 18, 2011)

You want a sweet, sweet, sword for your first.  I recommend the GI Joe Sword.

http://www.trueswords.com/gi-joe-swords-b-1154030639.html


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## Stealthy (Jun 18, 2011)

Chris Parker said:


> Hey Cryo,
> 
> I can see where you're coming from, but in regard to generic advice given over such a medium as this, I agree completely with Ken's comments. One of the reasons the "lower end" swords are not recommended is that they have a much greater risk of being flawed (such as the splitting tsuka you mention).


 
Same here,

I have a $400 Hanwei and while it held up okay for a while eventually the fittings became loose. The balance is quite nice but loose fittings are a major pain.

Incidentally I have to straighten the blade by hand all the time since it is so soft any sideways motion when changing direction bends it(not a problem since it is only for drawing and kata and not for cutting).


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## Cryozombie (Jun 18, 2011)

Chris, I get what you are saying too, but again, I think there is a difference between (to use an analogy similar to your Guitar one) what kind of Machine a Nascar Driver needs and what kind of Machine a Pizza delivery driver needs. I dunno, maybe I would feel differently if I was using them more than a couple times a year... but it still smacks of elitism to me. I remember years ago when the Paul Chen blades first became availible, and everyone talked about what a miracle it was that a "Real" sword finally hit the market that was affordable for the entry level practitioner... and now that the market is flooded with them, many of the same people are all screaming "pfffft... those aint real swords, just cheap wallhangers"

Wth?

It strikes me as a case of "Look how cool my new sword is."  "Oh yeah, I have one too." "Me Too!" "Really?  You all do?  ummm... It's Crap!  Look at this AWESOME sword I just got for 6x the cost!"


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## Cryozombie (Jun 18, 2011)

And don't get me wrong, I understand there is a huge quality difference between a Chen and say a sword from a high end manufacturer.   What I fail to understand is the idea that unless the sword is from one of them, it should never be used for anything other than decoration.


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## Ken Morgan (Jun 18, 2011)

My Shinken is made in China, so no elitism there. I&#8217;d rather use my Chinese shinken then my Japanese iaito. I use the Chinese blade because the balance is damn near perfect. It cost me $800, but even after 7+ years all the fittings are nice and tight, and I can swing it easily all day. 

When you are swinging a sword for upwards of 20 hours a week, you need a blade with great balance, snug fittings and generally well made. Serious iaido practice demands it. If you use something substandard, your elbows hurt, your wrists hurt, your technique is crap, your balance is off, you end up fighting the blade to do what you want it to do, but it just can&#8217;t do what it is supposed to do.

These guys who come in with Chen blades and others quickly switch over so something better after they try out what else is available.


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## pgsmith (Jun 18, 2011)

> What I fail to understand is the idea that unless the sword is from one of them, it should never be used for anything other than decoration.


The answer to this is all in how a Japanese sword is made. Not the blade mind you, although that does factor in, but the _rest_ of the sword. A traditional Japanese sword is made as follows ... The outline of the blade is drawn on both sides of a blank piece of wood for the sheath (saya). Then the space for the blade is carefully hand carved out until it fits exactly in the space with only the back of the sword actually touching the wood. this is accomplished by carving one side of the saya deeper than the other. The halves are tied tightly together and the fit checked by oiling the blade to determine where in the saya it may be touching. Any imperfections are carefully carved out until the fit is exact. The handle is made in a similar manner. The tang (nakago) is outlined on both sides of the blank handle, and then it is carved out until the fit is almost perfect, but just a tight. Then the handle halves are glued together, rayskin is glued on top to reinforce the wood, then the fittings are put on and the handle wrapped in cotton, silk, or leather. When the handle is finished, it is pressed onto the nakago. The key element being that it must fit quite tightly to hold it together properly, but not so tight that the wood will split. This is aided by the rayskin and handle wrap. It is this pressure fit that holds the handle on, the peg (mekugi) is there to keep the pressure tight. All of the meticulous hand fitting is why traditionally finished Japanese swords are so expensive as it is difficult to do well, and takes a long apprenticeship to learn properly.

Now, in order to bring the price down to a reasonable level, shortcuts obviously have to be taken to this procedure. The lower the price, the more shortcuts have been taken to get there. This is where buying an inexpensive sword gets very tricky. The most common shortcuts are to use generic components rather than hand carved components. Fit errors are corrected using shims, glue, and filing. 

Some of the most common errors that I've come across in inexpensive swords are 1) the blade does not line up properly with the handle. This in itself is not a catastrophic error, and most Chinese made swords have this problem to some degree. 2) Handle is too small and cracks when forced on. this is a catastrophic failure and gives your sword the opportunity to become three feet of sharp steel flying through the air. Very dangerous. 3) Handle wrap not tight enough. This can result in the wrap coming loose and causing a person to throw their sword when it is swung. Again, very dangerous, but not quite as bad as a cracked handle. 4) saya does not fit correctly. This is not a catastrophic failure either, but can cause the sword to slip out and cut someone (seen that happen a couple of times) or can cause the sword to jam and make it hard to draw resulting in excessive force which allows a person to lose control of their sword. (Seen this happen also). 5) Poor grade of wood used for the handle. This is another catastrophic failure as it can cause the handle to crack.

Now, for someone that is very familiar with swords, all of these issues can be checked before use. I have no problem with students buying inexpensive swords as long as I get to check them before they swing them around, and as long as they agree to either return them (if possible) or use them for decoration only if I fail them after a careful check. Some of the people on the Chinese sword assembly lines do good work, others don't have a clue. Quality control is almost non-existent. Therefore, it's a crapshoot as to whether you had several people that knew how to do a good job making your sword or not. I've seen some inexpensive swords that were very well made, but I've seen far more that were junk and basically just an accident waiting to happen.

Since most people looking at inexpensive swords don't have much knowledge or experience, I don't feel right recommending any of them since you never know if you are going to get a good one or a bad one, and it takes quite a bit of experience to know one from the other. That's why you end up with most of the experienced people saying not to buy an inexpensive sword. Well, that and the fact that they are usually far inferior aesthetically and balance wise, but those are not really issues unless you are going to be joining a dojo and learning in earnest.

  Wow, that ended up much longer than I had planned. Sorry!


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## Indagator (Jun 18, 2011)

Thanks for the interesting points raised here. Definitely a few things to think about. 

Ken Morgan, the particular sword I have been looking at (the Hanwei one) is pretty much the same as one a friend of mine has which he has used for about 9 years without any problems. He mostly uses it for cutting, although for myself I basically intend to be using one for solo training, practising kata &c. with only a small focus on cutting. 
Interesting point about the >$500 range being all wall-hangers. I was under the impression that SS blades were for wall hanging but carbon bladed swords were suitable to train with?
My trouble is I don't have a large amount of theoretical knowledge when it comes to the swords themselves, their construction and the various manufacturers reputations &c.
And yes, of course I would never use anything other than a bokken for training with another partner. Not sure why you thought I would have...?
The sort of price ranges you are pointing to simply cannot be afforded by those in the working class, although the used sword idea sounds like a possibility.
Trouble is, like I said, I don't really want to rule out kenjutsu from my training but at this stage it is looking like I may have to - aside, of course, from what we train in class with the bokken.

Mr Parker the guitar analogy was also quite good - although worth mentioning is that my Asian-made single inverted cone resonator actually produces a nicer sound than the authentic Dobro which I measured it up against - with an $800 price difference lol.
I have only played guitar for about 18 years though and of those 18 years only about half was spent in classical training - hence why I moved on to the blues.
I digress - my point is that would this mean it is still possible to get a decent sword for the purposes I am looking at (ie Bujinkan kenjutsu &c.) if one knew what one was looking for. For example, I could always ask the Shidoshi what he thought about a particular sword before buying it. 

Little confused now tbh. 

Pgsmith thanks for that informative post.


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## Indagator (Jun 20, 2011)

Just to clarify, the prices I am referring to are in US dollars - is this the same for everybody else?

Ken Morgan the sword I have been looking at retails at $375.00 but through the wholesale importer it would be $120.00 does this still mean it would be no good?

The same seller also currently is offering a handmade zatoichi shirasaya that goes for about $650.00 normally, for around $200.00 at the moment. 

I think he maybe is looking to offload some stuff or something, I did consider that he may be scamming but other people I know have dealt with his business in the past and seems okay...

Bill Mattocks the white sword on the link you provided actually looks really nice, visually speaking. I don't think it would be worth buying of course lol. Just the colour of it &c. look quite attractive.


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## Ken Morgan (Jun 20, 2011)

A sword used primarily for cutting is different from one used primarily for iaido. They dont have to be, but they have kind of evolved that way. A heavier cutting sword will seriously affect your ability to do kata correctly, the weight is wrong, the balance is off, and as such it will pull on your body in ways it shouldnt. The stresses your body and your sword go under in the practice of kata or cutting are different, a sword that holds up well in one, may not hold up well in another.

$500 is an arbitrary number, but I find it to be reasonably true.

The whole secret to picking a sword is to test drive them all and see what works for you.  

BTW, I wouldnt use a sharp blade until after I had more than a few years into an art.


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## Indagator (Jun 20, 2011)

Thanks for that info!


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## kip42 (Jun 26, 2011)

Chris Parker said:


> A valient effort, but I'm not really just going to let this one slide....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I see where you are coming from but still want to own a sword just to have I suppose. I am going to go with the Cold Steel Warrior Series. So basically the Bujinkan uses the regular Katana as their sword? I thought I read somewhere that the handle was shorter or longer to make it look slower than it was. 

Was it called the Togakure Ryu Ninjato? How long was the blade and handle of the traditional ninja sword? I just kind of want one and as dumb as it sounds would be neat to have something battle proven. I wont train with a real sword but I see it as training with a plastic gun and not owning a real one.


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## Namii (Jun 26, 2011)

Ken Morgan said:


> My Shinken is made in China, so no elitism there. Id rather use my Chinese shinken then my Japanese iaito. I use the Chinese blade because the balance is damn near perfect. It cost me $800, but even after 7+ years all the fittings are nice and tight, and I can swing it easily all day.



May I ask what your shinken is? is is a production or a custom ?


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## Supra Vijai (Jun 26, 2011)

kip42 said:


> I see where you are coming from but still want to own a sword just to have I suppose. I am going to go with the Cold Steel Warrior Series. So basically the Bujinkan uses the regular Katana as their sword? I thought I read somewhere that the handle was shorter or longer to make it look slower than it was.
> 
> Was it called the Togakure Ryu Ninjato? How long was the blade and handle of the traditional ninja sword? I just kind of want one and as dumb as it sounds would be neat to have something battle proven. I wont train with a real sword but I see it as training with a plastic gun and not owning a real one.



If you're not going to train with it, I assume it's to look pretty? Why waste hundreds on a poorly made blade when you can get a 3 piece wall hanger display set complete with sword rack off Ebay for about $150? I think you're mixing up your terminology btw, the ninjato was the straight bladed ninja sword which *surprise surprise* didn't exist they way they are meant to have outside of Hollywood and fantasy. 

The length of the traditional sword varies based on it's user. Your height determines how long your blade will be. Generally say 2 to 2.5 feet of blade and 1 foot of handle. But again if you're not going to be training with the live blade then that doesn't matter, really.


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## Ken Morgan (Jun 26, 2011)

Namii said:


> May I ask what your shinken is? is is a production or a custom ?


 
Production.
This is what I have here, http://sdksupplies.netfirms.com/cat_chinshin.htm
In fact I think it may very well be my sword in the photo....


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## Namii (Jun 26, 2011)

I love how he replies to the questions. Very nice looking sword. I hope to see a few examples at the Iaido seminar I'm attending next month. SDK and a couple others are going to have stuff for sale there. So hopefully Ill be able to feel how awesome the balance is.
I totally agree with the different sword for kata and cutting.


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## kip42 (Jun 26, 2011)

I want it to be completely functional. I am not at a skill level to train with live blades but want one. I feel that I should have one since I am training to use one. It is not for looks, not for training, but for knowing I have an actual sword since I spend time learning how to use a Bokken. What length blade and handle do most of the guys use in the Bujinkan?


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## Thesemindz (Jun 26, 2011)

kip42 said:


> I want it to be completely functional. I am not at a skill level to train with live blades but want one. I feel that I should have one since I am training to use one. It is not for looks, not for training, but for knowing I have an actual sword since I spend time learning how to use a Bokken. What length blade and handle do most of the guys use in the Bujinkan?



I'm confused. Your profile says you are training in "Beginning MMA" but here you say you are training to use a sword, which would make the UFC more interesting but as far as I know isn't a legal technique. You say you are spending time learning how to use a bokken, and seem specifically interested in the sword work practiced in the Bujinkan, yet you clearly don't train in the Bujinkan because then you wouldn't have to ask a bunch of strangers what their training is like.

What exactly is it you are training in? And with whom? I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from here. You say you want a live blade, which is fine if that's important to you. Go buy one. But obviously you aren't getting any support here, so why keep asking?

The people here who actually know what they're talking about when it comes to sword work have been unanimous in telling you to knock it the hell off. Whether that's good advice or just artistic elitism I'll leave for you to decide for yourself. But nobody seems interested in helping you on your quest. It seems like their position is pretty clear. You are too ignorant to even ask the right questions, you have repeatedly referred to ninja weapons that don't even exist, and everyone with any real knowledge sees you as a danger to yourself and others.

If you want a sword, buy one. They're easy enough to find. Please don't swing it around when there are other people in the area. In fact, I'd recommend not swinging it around at all. And never, ever, train with live weapons when you're training with a partner. You will kill someone.

Good luck. There's plenty of swords on eBay. You could also try your local flea markets. I found a WWII japanese officer's sword and a cavalry sabre at one just last week. But I think your questions about fictional ninja swords have probably taken you about as far as you're going to go.


-Rob


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## kip42 (Jun 26, 2011)

I have studied a few arts over the years. I have been training in the Bujinkan on and off for going on a year.


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## Thesemindz (Jun 26, 2011)

kip42 said:


> I have studied a few arts over the years. I have been training in the Bujinkan on and off for going on a year.



Then I would recommend you ask your instructor what kind of sword you should have.


-Rob


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## Supra Vijai (Jun 26, 2011)

Thesemindz said:


> Then I would recommend you ask your instructor what kind of sword you should have.
> 
> 
> -Rob



That's the running theme of the advise presented countless times across a number of threads (read all) by Kip but here we are...


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## Thesemindz (Jun 26, 2011)

Supra Vijai said:


> That's the running theme of the advise presented countless times across a number of threads (read all) by Kip but here we are...



After reading his other threads and posts I'm pretty sure he's not a serious martial artist. At best, he's been training at home with "techniques" he picks up from tv and books. At worst, he's a complete fraud who's either trolling or delusional.

I haven't seen a single thing in any of his posts that makes me think he's legitimate. Maybe I'm wrong. But when I asked him what exactly he trains in he gave me the old "this and that." In my experience, that's code for "I'm full of ****."

I had a guy I worked with years ago who found out I did karate and he walked up to me and said, "I hear you do karate, I'm a black belt myself." Being genuinely interested I asked, "Oh really? What art?" To which he replied, "Oh, uh, it's kind of um, you know, a bunch of things I've picked up over the years."

You know what I say when someone asks me what I train in? Kenpo. I don't stutter and I don't hesitate and I don't say stuff, or things, or this and that. It's easy for me, because I've been doing kenpo for over fifteen years. When someone can't answer that simple question they aren't usually studying, they're usually _lying_.

Quick. What do you study?

See.


-Rob


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## Supra Vijai (Jun 26, 2011)

Thesemindz said:


> After reading his other threads and posts I'm pretty sure he's not a serious martial artist. At best, he's been training at home with "techniques" he picks up from tv and books. At worst, he's a complete fraud who's either trolling or delusional.
> 
> I haven't seen a single thing in any of his posts that makes me think he's legitimate. Maybe I'm wrong. But when I asked him what exactly he trains in he gave me the old "this and that." In my experience, that's code for "I'm full of ****."
> 
> ...



Ninjutsu! 

No fair if you count the delayed reply, I'm at work so replying whenever I get a chance

Honestly I have no doubts Kip probably does or did study in the Bujinkan (or any school) somewhere in dribs and drabs but as you've seen for yourself, the main issue seems to be asking a bunch of strangers on a forum anonymously for advice that realistically only your instructor can give you. As for giving, or not giving straight answers as the case may be it's a vicious cycle where the people who know what they're talking about (and I don't count myself among them just yet) keep trying to help and the questions keep coming. 

All the best to Kip though if he does pursue this little venture and buys himself a Shinken. As for the standard length, quick google search for the term "standard length for a shinken in the Bujinkan" gave me 10,900 results in 0.nothing seconds so more than enough info there.


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## Tanaka (Jun 26, 2011)

To be honest Kip is probably looking for the "Oniyuri" made by Cheness.
He most likely heard it talked about on youtube.


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## Supra Vijai (Jun 26, 2011)

Tanaka said:


> To be honest Kip is probably looking for the "Oniyuri" made by Cheness.
> He most likely heard it talked about on youtube.



What makes you suggest that one? Just out of curiosity


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## Indagator (Jun 27, 2011)

Kip,

If you're going to get live blade you're gonna get live blade, right? Nothing anybody says to you is going to stop you. At least this is the way you hvae presented yourself.

Now, this may not neccesarily be that bad of a thing. It comes down to you. Silly question but how do you currently handle sharp objects that you are familiar with?
And how sharp are they?

I am relatively new to Japanese sword work, and not much more experienced with the claymore.

However, I am a crazy mad, rabid keen bowhunter. And the bluntest of my broadheads will at the very least shave the hair from your arm or leg. Some of the better quality ones that I have I managed to get to a sharpness where you wouldn't even screw them into your shaft by hand - I use a tool. This is what I call "scary sharp" and I have had some serious cuts when I first got the hang of honeing, sharpening and stropping them to this point - cuts that I never realised I had even made until I saw the blood. That's sharp, yeah, when you don't even feel a serious cut.

My knives vary - from my bush knife which has a deeper whetstoned edge but less of a stropped finish, to skinning and fleshing knives that are right up there with the broadheads.

Now, I am just a mad keen hunter, who made my tools this way for functional purpose as it serves me better when I use them.

If you go out, and buy a quality live blade sword from somebody who has spent decades dedicated to the arts, made with an expectation that those who use it will have had significant training experience with bokken and practical blades, what kind of edge, hone and finish do you think _that_ friggin thing is gonna have, man?

I get that you may want one, and heck for all that people give their advice I'd buy a decent shinken if the opportunity came up on a good deal and I had the cash ready to go. That being said, I have some years experience handling some pretty sharp objects and have an understanding and appreciation of what they are capableof. Couple this with how long a katana blade is in comparison to machetes, knives, or broadheads and a weapon like that commands some serious respect.

I can't post pictures in my account but if I could I would show you some of the nasty scars I have on my hands and one really ugly one on my leg, as well as the damage I have done to 150-200kg animals with a mere 150 grains of sharpened carbon steel. I can't but I'm sure Google will have plenty of examples - so if you're going to get a live blade just remember what sharpened carbon steel is capable of, and that you must respect that weapon. Treat it like a toy and it'll treat you like hot butter...


Just my .02 fwiw, and I say it with all the best ineterests.


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## Stealthy (Jun 27, 2011)

Indagator said:


> Couple this with how long a katana blade is in comparison to machetes, knives, or broadheads and a weapon like that commands some serious respect.


 
QFT

I used to play with knives extensively as a kid and the respect I have for edged weapons can not be conveyed in words(I've had a finger hanging by a flap of skin and geysers coming out of my foot).

In short, no matter what you think you know about them they will cut you, *guaranteed*.

If you do not understand this then you have no business playing with a Katana as your lessons will cost you dearly.

My shinken rarely comes off the rack and never to be played with.

Edited: It just came to mind that I have probably been cut by every single edged weapon I have ever owned and believe me I have owned a few. As an electrician I need to use a knife virtually everyday and even after all these years I still cut myself. The worst ever was not by me but happened while I was at work and what happened is this poor guys tip snapped off, flew up and hit him in the eye. I didn't know the guy previously but struth did I feel for him.


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## Tanaka (Jun 27, 2011)

Supra Vijai said:


> What makes you suggest that one? Just out of curiosity


Because what he is talking about matches that sword. I really don't think he needs a live blade so I was neglecting on mentioning it. But now I just do not care.



			
				kip42 said:
			
		

> I see where you are coming from but still want to own a sword just  to have I suppose. I am going to go with the Cold Steel Warrior Series.  So basically the Bujinkan uses the regular Katana as their sword? I  thought I read somewhere that the handle was shorter or longer to make  it look slower than it was.
> 
> Was it called the Togakure Ryu Ninjato? How long was the blade and  handle of the traditional ninja sword? I just kind of want one and as  dumb as it sounds would be neat to have something battle proven. I wont  train with a real sword but I see it as training with a plastic gun and  not owning a real one.


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## Supra Vijai (Jun 27, 2011)

Tanaka said:


> Because what he is talking about matches that sword. I really don't think he needs a live blade so I was neglecting on mentioning it. But now I just do not care.



Ahh... thanks!


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## Sanke (Jun 29, 2011)

Kip,

By this point, i'm fairly sure there's little to no point in trying to convince you to not buy a live blade, so do whatever you want, although I will say one more time for the record: it's not a good idea.
However, there is one thing that you said that stuck out in one of your last posts, and not in a good way...


kip42 said:


> I feel that I should have one since I am training to use one. It is not for looks, not for training, but for knowing I have an actual sword since I spend time learning how to use a Bokken.



You say you feel you should have a sword around, as you're training to use one... why exactly? 
I'm confused as to what you think you'd do with it. If it's not for training, or for looks, that only really leaves using it as a weapon, for self defense or otherwise (unless you don't count tameshigiri, or any kind of cutting as 'training') which is frankly quite a disturbing thought.
If that's the case, you've not only missed the point of training JSA, but probably missed the point of martial arts as a whole. You probably need a long conversation with your instructor, if you even have one, and not only for your sake.

Either way, whatever you end up doing, for your own sake, and that of the martial arts community as a whole: *don't go and hurt yourself or anyone else.*
That's about all i can really say on the matter. 
Best of luck with whatever choice you make in the end.


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## Chris Parker (Jun 29, 2011)

Right. I've been away for the last two days or so, but there are some things that need to be said (again, it seems....)



kip42 said:


> I see where you are coming from but still want to own a sword just to have I suppose. I am going to go with the Cold Steel Warrior Series. So basically the Bujinkan uses the regular Katana as their sword? I thought I read somewhere that the handle was shorter or longer to make it look slower than it was.


 
For crying out loud.... "it was longer or shorter (?) to make it look slower than it was"? What? First off, that doesn't make any internal sense. Secondly, it doens't make any practical sense. Thirdly, it doesn't make any tactical sense. No idea where on earth you got such an idea from....



kip42 said:


> Was it called the Togakure Ryu Ninjato? How long was the blade and handle of the traditional ninja sword?


 
Togakure Ryu had a few specific-measurement swords, but as you've been told already, you are highly unlikely to actually study the use of those weapons, so, uh, what's the point of this again?



kip42 said:


> I just kind of want one and as dumb as it sounds would be neat to have something battle proven.


 
I don't think you really have any understanding of what "battle proven" is in this context, frankly. Seriously, it's not the weapons for the most part, it's the tactics and methods of using the weapon. You're caught up in a lot of fantasy still.



kip42 said:


> I wont train with a real sword but I see it as training with a plastic gun and not owning a real one.


 
Bad analogy. First off, a plastic gun won't allow you to train with it (as a gun in it's usage), whereas a bokken does allow you to train swordsmanship properly. The plastic gun can only allow you to learn things like gun disarming, in which case owning a gun yourself is not what is needed either (after all, what are you going to do, own a gun so you can give it to the bad guys, then disarm them?). Secondly, a gun is a legitimate self defence weapon (more in some areas than others) in a modern context and society.... having a sword just isn't. So your analogy fails in all aspects, and therefore has no relevance to your decision or logic.



kip42 said:


> I want it to be completely functional.


 
Okay, do you know what it takes for a sword to be considered "completely functional"? And I'm not talking about mass-produced, Japanese sword inspired, supposedly "practical" swords that are out there here. I'm talking about a truly functional weapon, down to it's balance, weight, fittings, wrapping, saya, and more. There's a lot more to a sword than a sharp metal blade, and if you're after, as you say, a 'battle proven' weapon, then these things are going to be important. 

And I don't think you have any idea of them yet.



kip42 said:


> I am not at a skill level to train with live blades but want one.


 
You have been training with a Bujinkan group "on and off for about a year"... I'd personally doubt whether you're at the skill level to use a bokken safely with any real pressure. Here's something for you to ponder... the first character in "Ninjutsu/Ninpo/Ninja" has a number of connotations, one of the most dominant being patience. I recommend embracing that aspect of the term.



kip42 said:


> I feel that I should have one since I am training to use one.


 
Gotta tell you, you're probably not learning to use a sword. More likely the sword is being used to aid in lessons, but that is very different. And even if you are learning sword properly (not likely by your posts here, though....), then the first thing you will learn is respect for the weapon, which would have you cooling your jets. But are you suggesting that just because you are attending a school that uses a particular weapon, then that is reason enough for you to own one? What's next, you'll be asking us for the best, most battle-proven naginata for you to own, because your instructor taught a bit of it?



kip42 said:


> It is not for looks, not for training, but for knowing I have an actual sword since I spend time learning how to use a Bokken.


 
So it's not for looks (for show or display), not for training.... er, what the hell is it for then?!? Just to "know you have it"? And, frankly, if you feel that you should have a sword around, and train in it for self defence, then you have completely missed the point of sword training. Completely.



kip42 said:


> What length blade and handle do most of the guys use in the Bujinkan?


 
For the love of all the flowers in the garden of life, stop it, okay?

http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=89440 "Katana vs Ninja Sword? What's the best Combat Sword?", August last year.



kip42 said:


> I know the Katana is sharp enough to cut through stuff that a machette and hatchett wont. I also know it never needs sharpening. Who makes the absolute best Katana that will stand up to hard use?
> *What swords are allowed to be used in Ninjitsu?* as in names? Who makes the best Ninja sword out there? Other than the shorter length that allows you to get it out faster; are there any other advantages to a ninja sword over a Katana?
> *Is the ninja sword which has the longer handle to appear like a Katana accepted by Mater Hatsummi?*
> Who makes the best training Katana, Ninja sword, and bo staff?


 
My answer there:



Chris Parker said:


> As for what ones are "allowed" to be used, not really sure you understand things here. The sword used in training Japanese sword arts is a bokken, a wooden training sword shaped like a katana. There are also short sword versions, known as kodachi (short sword/tachi) or wakizashi (mounted on the side/side arm) predominantly, and again there are bokken forms of these. Additionally, you may sometimes use a Togakure Ryu sword, which is a shorter blade with a regular tsuka/handle and saya/scabbard. There is no such thing as a sword that is "allowed" or "disallowed", just the proper tools for training. Join a school, train, learn, and do as instructed there.
> 
> It is a katana. Forget about any distinctions. Katana just means sword, anyway. As to advantages in different dimentions, join a school, train, study, and learn. You currently have no baseline that you can compare with, so anything that could be said is rather pointless.
> 
> Join a school, train, study, then ask your instructor what they allow in their school. Forget what Hatsumi "accepts", he isn't really concerned with what someone outside of his dojo is doing.




A month later, same thread....



kip42 said:


> Im am starting to train in the Bujikan. I was wondering what the traditional swords were that I might train with. I know the Katana is known as one of the best designs out there but was wondering who if anyone in the Bujikan used a katana. I was under the impression that teh ninjato was the sword of the ninja. I am refering to the one carried most often in the past.
> 
> I would like to own a top quality sword that can actually be used to cut stuff like bamboo.


 
My answer to that one:



Chris Parker said:


> Kip, I'm going to strongly suggest you re-read my post here (post number 5) as it answers everything you are continuing to ask.


 
Then you start this thread with this:



kip42 said:


> *What is the traditional Bujinkan sword length?* Did they ever use double sided swords?
> 
> I have the cash now to purchase one and one later. I realize that I am not at the level yet to use one but I still want one. Who makes the strongest, longest lasting, best built swords? How does Cold Steel compare to the combat proven ones used a long time ago? What size and brand should I consider?
> 
> ...


 
Oh, and I may point out that you also posted:



kip42 said:


> I have the cash now to purchase one and one later.* I realize that I am not at the level yet to use one but I still want one. *Who makes the strongest, longest lasting, best built swords? How does Cold Steel compare to the combat proven ones used a long time ago? What size and brand should I consider?


 
How do you reconcile that with your post of last December of:



kip42 said:


> I am going to wait and get a sword later on when I am ready.


 
From the "New and Old Katana" thread you started. This comment was in responce to my post, by the way. 

Seriously, though. Don't ask the same damn question ("what size is the Bujinkan sword?") again. You've been answered more than once already.


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## Indagator (Jun 29, 2011)

What size is the traditional Bujinkan semi-automatic carbine?

I have been training with a plastic SKK carbine for three weeks, and I'm ready to start doing live-fire training with an 8 shot mag but I want to make sure I'm using the correct traditional Bujinkan carbine. 

Did they use carbines with a rifled barrel? 



Sorry. Couldn't resist. Something about all of those repetitive posts asking the same question over and over just made me have to poke fun somehow...


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## Flying Crane (Jun 29, 2011)

Chris Parker said:


> Here's something for you to ponder... the first character in "Ninjutsu/Ninpo/Ninja" has a number of connotations, one of the most dominant being patience. I recommend embracing that aspect of the term.


 

yeah yeah patience...how long with THAT take?

-Ed Gruberman


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## Thesemindz (Jun 29, 2011)

Don't be an idiot Indagator.

Everybody knows the Bujinkan uses a 30 round magazine.

Amateurs.


-Rob


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## Supra Vijai (Jun 30, 2011)

Gee guys... I always thought traditionally training was done with an A12 fully automatic assault shotgun like this one?


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## Indagator (Jun 30, 2011)

Supra Vijai said:


> Gee guys... I always thought traditionally training was done with an A12 fully automatic assault shotgun like this one?


 

Awwww, great, now ya got me drooling on my keyboard!


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## Thesemindz (Jun 30, 2011)

I thought they used a shorter barrel to make it look slower. Or faster.


-Rob


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## Supra Vijai (Jun 30, 2011)

Thesemindz said:


> I thought they used a shorter barrel to make it look slower. Or faster.
> 
> 
> -Rob



Nah, that's only the Togakure version. Get your facts straight man!


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