# Why are escrima and wing chun often paired together?



## vatesi

Not just in ebmas, but in other schools too. People will also often suggest cross training in escrima online.

Why? How do the two systems compliment each other?


----------



## matsu

i know very little about escrima but love the way it looks.
and like you i have heard many combos of the two... so great thread possibilties here..
looking forward to learning something from this one
thanks for asking the question

matsu


----------



## MJS

vatesi said:


> Not just in ebmas, but in other schools too. People will also often suggest cross training in escrima online.
> 
> Why? How do the two systems compliment each other?


 
I dont do WC, however, I do train in Arnis, so I'll toss in my .02.  My main art is Kenpo.  I've found that Arnis blends in very well with my Kenpo.  I'm not hindered in any way, as far as effectiveness or being able to transition between the two.  

I also feel that when it comes to weapons, the FMAs are the best place to look.  I say this because its a weapon based art.  Sure, Kenpo has weapons disarms, and defense against a bunch of other attacks, but I like the FMAs, because you have the chance to look much deeper into the weapons area.  During workouts, I've often taken Kenpo disarms and Arnis disarms, and compared the two.  More times than not, I've found myself being more comfortable with the Arnis ones.

So....why would a WC student be interested in Kali, Arnis, Escrima?  I'm going to say the weapons work.  Additionally, there are a number of locks and some ground work in there as well.  

IMO, the FMAs can pretty much blend with any art.


----------



## zepedawingchun

Their principles, theories, and concepts are the same or very similar.  Both are flowing arts, also use sensitivity in the training.  Weapons use is similar too.  The good thing about Kali (Escrima) is they teach weapons first, which helps the student get a good grasp of defending themselves much sooner than any other art.


----------



## yak sao

From my understanding, how it came to be as far as WT/EBMAS linked up with escrima was back in the late 70's /early 80's, Rene Latosa was in the air force and stationed in Germany. Keith Kernsphect, student of Leung Ting, saw the similar principles of their two arts and saw this as a great learning opportunity for his organization as weapons training in WT comes very late in the curriculum. 

I've trained only a small bit of Escrima, but I have found it to be exxtremly complimentary to my WT training.
The principles of intercepting, going forward, sensitivity,staying behind your weapon....like I said, I'm a greenhorn in Escrima, so I'm sure there's so much more.


----------



## geezer

yak sao said:


> From my understanding, how it came to be as far as WT/EBMAS linked up with escrima was back in the late 70's /early 80's, Rene Latosa was in the air force and stationed in Germany. Keith Kernsphect, student of Leung Ting, saw the similar principles of their two arts and saw this as a great learning opportunity for his organization as weapons training in WT comes very late in the curriculum.
> 
> I've trained only a small bit of Escrima, but I have found it to be exxtremly complimentary to my WT training.
> The principles of intercepting, going forward, sensitivity,staying behind your weapon....like I said, I'm a greenhorn in Escrima, so I'm sure there's so much more.


 
Yak's got that right. Because of the linking up between GM Rene Latosa and GM Kernspecht, most of the WT offshoots have a favorable view towards Escrima.... although whose escrima and how it's approached varies among the different WT organizations.

The other hugely important link, of course, was the earlier connection between Bruce Lee and Dan Inosanto. That pretty much linked JKD (and by extension, WC) with FMAs in the public's perception. Although it should be noted that a lot of WC purists would rather that their students study WC alone.

As for myself, I'm another of those 'Chunners who also does Escrima, and I love both arts.


----------



## Vajramusti

Steve and Yak have that right. WT and their offshoots are into teaching both. Not so for most other WC lines that I know of.
I have no formal training in Filipino escrima- but because of wing chun I find stick work easy to adapt to.
BTW several Indian arts have stick fighting, including Tamil "silamban" which was transported to Malaysia and is still there. Indian martial arts have had considerable influence historically in SE Asia.

joy chaudhuri


----------



## BloodMoney

Yep guys above have nailed it really.

As someone who trains in both I would have to say that Escrima compliments Chun very nicely, at least our version of Chun with this version of Escrima, some Escrima looks very robotic, some of it is more sport related and thus doesnt bode well with my vision of Chun at least. The butterfly knife stuff from Chun has some similar movements to Escrima as well.

Also I would add that Escrima is arguably the most street lethal, effective and brutal of any weapon arts, as is Chun to striking arts. They are both efficient and direct, so even the philosophy behind them blends well.


----------



## graychuan

zepedawingchun said:


> *Their principles, theories, and concepts are the same or very similar.  Both are flowing arts, also use sensitivity in the training.*  Weapons use is similar too.  The good thing about Kali (Escrima) is they teach weapons first, which helps the student get a good grasp of defending themselves much sooner than any other art.




Very well said. And I have always thought that the Lee/Inosanto connection also did a lot for the popularity of WC/Escrima. If my history is correct, Dan Inosanto was mainly a kempoist and FMA and was exposed to WC through Bruce. Likewise, Kempo and FMA Bruce got from Dan. I could be wrong. I practice both arts but separately. And feel no need to 'blend' the curriculum. In sparring or fighting...the techniques tend to blend themselves when I need them to. Same for the Yang Style TaiJiQuan that I have practiced along side my Kempo for the last 12-14 years.


----------



## zepedawingchun

graychuan said:


> Very well said. And I have always thought that the Lee/Inosanto connection also did a lot for the popularity of WC/Escrima. If my history is correct, Dan Inosanto was mainly a kempoist and FMA and was exposed to WC through Bruce. Likewise, Kempo and FMA Bruce got from Dan. I could be wrong. I practice both arts but separately. And feel no need to 'blend' the curriculum. In sparring or fighting...the techniques tend to blend themselves when I need them to. Same for the Yang Style TaiJiQuan that I have practiced along side my Kempo for the last 12-14 years.


 
And that Wing Chun/Inosanto connection continues to this day by way of my Sifu Francis Fong.  See the links below, the first link at the 4:55 mark.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxr0s1zCyl8&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRwq0CjQ8jw&feature=player_embedded

The links above are a very good discussion by Guru Dan concerning JKD and Wing Chun. My sifu has been associated with Guru Dan since the early 1980's.  Kali/JKD is taught at the Francis Fong Academy.  Guru Dan actually comes into the FFA twice a year teaching seminars on JKD/FMA.


----------



## graychuan

Now thats real cool, Zepe! My Guro is actually Filipino. Learned from his Uncle from the old country and he also studied at Inosanto's IMB academy in LA years ago. He used to live down the street from it. I bet we got a lot of the same drills...


----------



## Poor Uke

I train both, although recently I have been finding myself more involved with Arnis than WC.

I think FMAs in general are more ameanable to cross training.

Something that did stike me that hasnt been mentioned is the inherent double handedness of both systems.


----------



## profesormental

Short answer:

Because you can.

More elaborate answer:

Similar teaching methodology based on sensitivity and pattern drills. It has been done since Bruce Lee and Dan Inosanto started.

Also lots of fun and looks cool. Who doesn't like playing with knives and machetes!?


----------



## chinaboxer

this is one of those tricky to answer questions. this is my opinion only..

first you have to ask yourself one question, "are you a wing chun practitioner first and foremost." (i am not talking about JKD), this is an important question, because it will reflect your martial arts journey and what you include or exclude when it comes to studying other methods.

if the answer is "no", then you can do whatever you want.

if the answer is "yes", then it is imperative that you adhere to the core concepts that make wing chun work. so if you decide to research other martial arts methods, it is also imperative that the SAME concepts must be adhered to as well ALL THE TIME.

so studying ANYTHING that teaches you to keep your elbows AWAY from your center is only going to degrade your wing chun skills. Anything that teaches you to come off your heel is going to hinder your wing chun skills. Anything that teaches you to swing your shoulders is going to make your wing chun that much more confusing.

so it goes back to answering the first question, "are you a wing chun practitioner first and foremost or not?"


----------



## Poor Uke

chinaboxer said:


> if the answer is "yes", then it is imperative that you adhere to the core concepts that make wing chun work. so if you decide to research other martial arts methods, it is also imperative that the SAME concepts must be adhered to as well ALL THE TIME.
> 
> so studying ANYTHING that teaches you to keep your elbows AWAY from your center is only going to degrade your wing chun skills. Anything that teaches you to come off your heel is going to hinder your wing chun skills. Anything that teaches you to swing your shoulders is going to make your wing chun that much more confusing.
> 
> so it goes back to answering the first question, "are you a wing chun practitioner first and foremost or not?"


 
Personally I found that post more like a religious monologue than an attempt to address the question.


----------



## rooke

I disagree with Chinaboxer on a few topics (and vice versa). HOWEVER, I agree with his previous post.

If you're doing a non-traditional Wing Chun, then mixing and matching is fine. But if you're trying to be pure Wing Chun, using differing body mechanics will only inhibit your Wing Chun body mechanics.

Wing Chun is straight line. Arnis/Escrima/Kali is circular. The footwork is different. How the elbows are held is different. Guarding on the center-line is conceptually shared, but implemented differently. 

As a result, when you suddenly find yourself in certain reference points, your body may use a separate mechanic/stance/form than what one style (or another) may perform. 

Now personally, I'm more of a Kali/Silat fellow who has recently (last couple years) studied JKD Concepts (and trapping). But as someone who's also spent years doing internal arts, not all mechanics blend. This becomes very obvious if you're doing Santi for 30 minutes a day, and then go back to Kali/Silat. It modifies your stance/movement significantly.

Rooke


----------



## wushuguy

chinaboxer said:


> this is one of those tricky to answer questions. this is my opinion only..
> 
> first you have to ask yourself one question, "are you a wing chun practitioner first and foremost." (i am not talking about JKD), this is an important question, because it will reflect your martial arts journey and what you include or exclude when it comes to studying other methods.
> 
> if the answer is "no", then you can do whatever you want.
> 
> if the answer is "yes", then it is imperative that you adhere to the core concepts that make wing chun work. so if you decide to research other martial arts methods, it is also imperative that the SAME concepts must be adhered to as well ALL THE TIME.
> 
> so studying ANYTHING that teaches you to keep your elbows AWAY from your center is only going to degrade your wing chun skills. Anything that teaches you to come off your heel is going to hinder your wing chun skills. Anything that teaches you to swing your shoulders is going to make your wing chun that much more confusing.
> 
> so it goes back to answering the first question, "are you a wing chun practitioner first and foremost or not?"




I agree that adding escrima really changes the game. I had the chance to chi sau with a very experienced WC exponent the other day, and really felt the difference between a "pure" WC and one that had tendencies added to it from mixing with other arts. but then again I still consider myself a beginner, so it may just be that I'm easily impressed with good chi sau.

But as to why they're mixed together, I think there's many aspects why, but some are that of the similarity of the concepts, and the more modernized FMA approach and footwork compared to the classical WC approach to the concepts. In the overall game, I believe it improves one's skills greatly and adds flexibility. It may be in the end that it just opens our eyes to see how to better implement and understand WC theories.


----------



## chinaboxer

Poor Uke said:


> Personally I found that post more like a religious monologue than an attempt to address the question.


like i said, this is a tricky question to answer, because not all kali/escrima methods are the same. "Why are escrima and wing chun often paired together?" hmmm..probably because on the outside, they look somewhat similar, they do have their own form of sensitivity drills, but in reality, the two methods are completely different. escrima is an "outside/in" method while wing chun is an "inside/out" method. the two structures are completely different, how to generate power is different. but like i said, i don't research kali and i do know there are several different systems out there on the subject, and maybe there is one method that does adhere to wing chun concepts, i don't know. all i'm saying is to be careful what you add to your wing chun training, because it can hinder your progress.


----------



## geezer

chinaboxer said:


> like i said, this is a tricky question ...all i'm saying is to be careful what you add to your wing chun training, because it can hinder your progress.


 
True words. Also spoken by one who has confronted this dilemma. If you check out Jin's website (very worthwhile) you'll see that he trains more than just pure WC. There's grappling, MMA/ring fighting, and Muay Thai too. And that's a handful. But in many cases it is possible to use other stuff to enrich your WC. Not _necessary_, perhaps, but not impossible either.


----------



## dungeonworks

geezer said:


> True words. Also spoken by one who has confronted this dilemma. If you check out Jin's website (very worthwhile) you'll see that he trains more than just pure WC. There's grappling, MMA/ring fighting, and Muay Thai too. And that's a handful. But in many cases it is possible to use other stuff to enrich your WC. Not _necessary_, perhaps, but not impossible either.



It just boils down to if you are a *_ing __unner* or a Martial Artist....simple as that.


----------



## geezer

chinaboxer said:


> ...the two methods are completely different. escrima is an "outside/in" method while wing chun is an "inside/out"...


 
Jin, could you explin what you mean by this a bit more. I'm not sure I follow you.


----------



## chinaboxer

geezer said:


> Jin, could you explin what you mean by this a bit more. I'm not sure I follow you.


sure bro, it's a generalization, but for the most part, kali or escrima (even they have their own politics!) is like going to hug your grandma (not literally!) but the arm motion to do the action comes from the outside then in or if you put your arm around your girlfriend's shoulders, the motion also comes from the outside then in, this happens usually when your elbow position is away from your center. wrestlers also use the same type of arm motion to perform many takedowns. tennis players and baseball players swinging the bat also do the same type of "outside to inside" motion, which means that their elbows are going to be away from their center. also to gain power for the movement, usually requires the feet, hips and shoulders to also "sway" in conjunction with the movement.

as chunners, we know that this is completely opposite of the "core concepts", because our motion comes from the center elbow position and can move towards the outside gates, this would be inside to outside.

like i said, this is a very rough generalization, and it's not to say that kali/escrima doesn't have centerline attacks that move from the inside/out, because they do. and that's not to say that wing chun doesn't have outside/in attacks because they also do, but IMO they are the exceptions to the rule and not the bulk of the work.

but any _ing _un school teaching the mantra "keep your elbows into your center!" to their students, then also teaches kali/escrima and allows their elbows to swing out then in..out then in..over and over again, is just going to confuse the student IMO, it's just common sense, or am i missing something?

hope that clears that up a bit for ya. take care and peace!

Jin


----------



## dungeonworks

chinaboxer said:


> sure bro, it's a generalization, but for the most part, kali or escrima (even they have their own politics!) is like going to hug your grandma (not literally!) but the arm motion to do the action comes from the outside then in or if you put your arm around your girlfriend's shoulders, the motion also comes from the outside then in, this happens usually when your elbow position is away from your center. wrestlers also use the same type of arm motion to perform many takedowns. tennis players and baseball players swinging the bat also do the same type of "outside to inside" motion, which means that their elbows are going to be away from their center. also to gain power for the movement, usually requires the feet, hips and shoulders to also "sway" in conjunction with the movement.
> 
> as chunners, we know that this is completely opposite of the "core concepts", because our motion comes from the center elbow position and can move towards the outside gates, this would be inside to outside.
> 
> like i said, this is a very rough generalization, and it's not to say that kali/escrima doesn't have centerline attacks that move from the inside/out, because they do. and that's not to say that wing chun doesn't have outside/in attacks because they also do, but IMO they are the exceptions to the rule and not the bulk of the work.
> 
> but any _ing _un school teaching the mantra "keep your elbows into your center!" to their students, then also teaches kali/escrima and allows their elbows to swing out then in..out then in..over and over again, is just going to confuse the student IMO, it's just common sense, or am i missing something?
> 
> hope that clears that up a bit for ya. take care and peace!
> 
> Jin



Are you reffering to split entries Jin?  That is what I am picturing, from my limited Inosanto Kali basics.


----------



## zepedawingchun

Inside / outside, elbow in, elbow out, I don't think it's important. WC and Kali still work well together. I think there are just some basic things which allows them to blend. Some people say doing both messes up one or the others structures or execution of techniques, or causes confusion. I have to disagree. Give yourself (mind and body) more credit than that. We are capable of doing multiple tasks and do them well with practice. 

We as human beings are capable of learning multiple things and doing them all well, differentiating between them the differences and performing them together when needed. As long as you have a strong core in one martial arts system, and very good at it, I think you can train another system and that other system doesn't affect your core system. Or vice versa. An example, when you were in school, some atheletes played several different sports, and were very good at all of them. Starting the season with football, then into basketball, followed by tennis, and softball. There were always several atheletes who did all of them and were successful at every one of them. With years of playing all the sports, they became very proficient at whatever sport they ventured into. 

I also have a brother who was very good at playing basketball, playing hours and hours during the winter. But during the summer, he played tennis, spending hours and hours on the courts. He became very good at playing both. Now mind you, he didn't play them at the same time, but he could walk off a tennis court and pick up a basketball and play a game or two of it without any problems, being as proficient as always. I don't think martial arts are any different. I think you can do at least two different arts (and maybe more) and do them very well, if you train them correctly with perfect practicing of their principle theories, concepts, and techniques (if any). And with WC and Kali having some similarities, that is why they are often paired together.

Back in 1988, my Sifu and a Sihing wrote an article which was in Inside Kung Fu about the similarities of WC and Kali. It's pretty basic, but I think everyone gets the point. Some of the reasons given in the article are why, I think, they get paired together. And I guess Sifu thought so too. See the link:

http://www.francisfongacademy.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=18&Itemid=103


----------



## bribrius

zepedawingchun said:


> Inside / outside, elbow in, elbow out, I don't think it's important. WC and Kali still work well together. I think there are just some basic things which allows them to blend. Some people say doing both messes up one or the others structures or execution of techniques, or causes confusion. I have to disagree. Give yourself (mind and body) more credit than that. We are capable of doing multiple tasks and do them well with practice.
> 
> We as human beings are capable of learning multiple things and doing them all well, differentiating between them the differences and performing them together when needed. As long as you have a strong core in one martial arts system, and very good at it, I think you can train another system and that other system doesn't affect your core system. Or vice versa. An example, when you were in school, some atheletes played several different sports, and were very good at all of them. Starting the season with football, then into basketball, followed by tennis, and softball. There were always several atheletes who did all of them and were successful at every one of them. With years of playing all the sports, they became very proficient at whatever sport they ventured into.
> 
> I also have a brother who was very good at playing basketball, playing hours and hours during the winter. But during the summer, he played tennis, spending hours and hours on the courts. He became very good at playing both. Now mind you, he didn't play them at the same time, but he could walk off a tennis court and pick up a basketball and play a game or two of it without any problems, being as proficient as always. I don't think martial arts are any different. I think you can do at least two different arts (and maybe more) and do them very well, if you train them correctly with perfect practicing of their principle theories, concepts, and techniques (if any). And with WC and Kali having some similarities, that is why they are often paired together.
> 
> Back in 1988, my Sifu and a Sihing wrote an article which was in Inside Kung Fu about the similarities of WC and Kali. It's pretty basic, but I think everyone gets the point. Some of the reasons given in the article are why, I think, they get paired together. And I guess Sifu thought so too. See the link:
> 
> http://www.francisfongacademy.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=18&Itemid=103


 
Good article. i didn't know wing chun was so complex.  I just gained respect for it. The "gates" still confuse me.  I am trying to understand that better, thanks.


----------



## KamonGuy2

Interesting topic! 

I understand what jin is saying. If you are training a fixed art and you drill moves in, you will develop certain habits. These may hinder you if you then go and train in other arts which teach you to do the exact opposite!!

It is like a track runner training for the 1600m instead of the 100m - you will develop different skills and routines, and it is almost impossible to be good at both

In the case of escrima, there are a few moves that combine well with the wing chun, but it does ultimately depend on how you have been taught wing chun

I found this when I did karate. Certain moves blended very well with the wing chun, but other techniques I could never use that effectively because it would ultimately conflict with my wing chun. Most of this was to do with energies rather than structure (ie punching in karate is extremely different to wing chun)

My two cents.


----------



## chinaboxer

zepedawingchun said:


> Inside / outside, elbow in, elbow out, I don't think it's important...


A _ing _un instructor or practitioner would never ever say that...ever.

what i'm starting to notice is the confusion of the word "wing chun" or whatever you want to call it. this is not aimed at anyone in particular, so please don't get offended, it's just an observation i've made and is only my opinion...

wing chun is NOT a style, it's completely "concept" based, you cannot go against the "concepts" because if you do, you are NOT doing wing chun, because you're not following the concepts, because that's all there is to the art.

if you mess with the concepts of wing chun, you mess with the whole thing. many people are out there mixing wing chun, kali, boxing, muay thai etc..together, which is fine, because they can do whatever they want, but what they can't do is say they adhere to wing chun, because they aren't, because they are not adhering to the concepts ALL THE TIME. all the techniques in wing chun don't amount to a hill of beans if they are not ALWAYS backed by the core concepts.

so where do you learn these concepts? in the forms training, guided by a competent instructor, why do you think they call the first form "little idea form"? because that's where you learn ALL the little ideas..the concepts. the forms training is EVERYTHING in wing chun. which is why it amazes me that it's always the first thing to go when people start mixing other conflicting martial arts in with wing chun.

can you tell this subject really erks me? =P


----------



## mook jong man

When the **** hits the fan whatever you have trained the most and for the longest will always come to the fore.


----------



## Poor Uke

chinaboxer said:


> if you mess with the concepts of wing chun, you mess with the whole thing. many people are out there mixing wing chun, kali, boxing, muay thai etc..together, which is fine, because they can do whatever they want, but what they can't do is say they adhere to wing chun, because they aren't, because they are not adhering to the concepts ALL THE TIME. all the techniques in wing chun don't amount to a hill of beans if they are not ALWAYS backed by the core concepts.
> 
> .............which is why it amazes me that it's always the first thing to go when people start mixing other conflicting martial arts in with wing chun.


 
My Arnis teacher is also a qualified Wing Chun instructor. I myself have dedicated many years soley to Wing Chun and attained a junior intructor cert in the organisation I was involved in.

I apprieciate the point your making, there are indeed alot of elements in the Arnis system I am learning that cannot readily be expressed as Wing Chun concepts.

But I dont see them as contradiction or for them to have the ability to confuse. I see them as extra options and reference points.

This idea that anyopne can only call themselves a Wing Chun practishoner if they study and only study 'pure' Wing Chun is kinda silly. Much of what I do in Arnis can be discribed by using Wing Chun analogies - *does that make those elements Wing Chun?*



chinaboxer said:


> can you tell this subject really erks me? =P


 
Me too =)


----------



## zepedawingchun

chinaboxer said:


> A _ing _un instructor or practitioner would never ever say that...ever.


 
Chinaboxer, you misunderstood me. What I was saying is Wing Chun uses elbows in, Kali elbows out, it doesn't matter. Maybe it didn't come out that way. As arts, they still work well together. Of course you have to follow the basic concepts of each of them to execute them correctly. I can jump from Wing Chun to Kali, and vice versa, one to the other without any problem.  My opinion is they work well together because they are similar. I didn't say exactly the same, just similar in some concepts. And that makes them easy to use together which is the most likely reason they are paired together.


----------



## zepedawingchun

chinaboxer said:


> . . . .many people are out there mixing wing chun, kali, boxing, muay thai etc..together, which is fine, because they can do whatever they want, but what they can't do is say they adhere to wing chun, because they aren't, because they are not adhering to the concepts ALL THE TIME. all the techniques in wing chun don't amount to a hill of beans if they are not ALWAYS backed by the core concepts


 
I don't mix Kali, or Thai, or boxing with Wing Chun.  I actually show Kali and Wing Chun seperately.  If I take something from Kali (or any of the others) to demonstrate, I tell my students this is from Kali or how Kali might do it.  In many instances, the whole reason for cross-training is so you're not caught with your pants down when you encounter something from boxing, Thai, or Kali, etc.


----------



## Poor Uke

My apologies for not posting this ealier. Its a video of the late Balintawak Arins Master Teofilo Velez (I have posted this in the weapons vid section as well which reminded me of this thread)

Balintawak is sometimes called _corto linear_ btw....enjoy





 
In my opinion WC and Balintawak have massive cross over and hopefully the video demonstrates the similarties.


----------



## geezer

Poor Uke said:


> In my opinion WC and Balintawak have massive cross over and hopefully the video demonstrates the similarties.


 
I've seen some Balinatawak demonstrated locally by Sam Buot and I had a mixed response regarding it's relation to the VT/WT I practice. There are definitely some similarities, but some obvious differences too. Some of the movements involved withdrawing or retracting force, and some seemed unecessarily complex. And I didn't see the explosive short power of a Rene Latosa (escrima) or Emin Boztepe(WT). Maybe I just didn't see enough. Bobby Taboada will be offering a seminar here this fall, and maybe I should go just to get another perspective. 

On the other hand, the DTE and Latosa Escrima systems I've been involved in haven't conflicted with my VT since they share root concepts. DTE for example is all about forward energy and following your opponent's center. At first it seemed to use a lot more off-lining than my VT, but as I've learned more about both arts, they seem to harmonise in many ways.

Perhaps that's the explanation for what I see with DTE and what you see with Balintawak, _Uke._ As you get deeper beneath the surface you may find more and more in common between certain arts at the conceptual level... things that at first appear contradictory but really _aren't._


----------



## Hawke

Maha Guro Buzz Smith instructs Maharlika Kuntaw (FMA).

Triangle Concept
[yt]bX7yTkOiSqw[/yt]

Blocking
[yt]Byp5p3uSOGI[/yt]


Gary Lam instructs a seminar at Burbank 2009
[yt]ernBJ9RfHxg[/yt]


----------



## geezer

Man, I always love watching good videos. Thanks. The second vid on Kuntau blocking _did_ look WC-like, except it didn't emphasize simultaneous defense-attack. And that's a major difference.  Enjoyed the Gary Lam one too ...some good stuff.


----------



## Hawke

I thought the vids may help others see some what of a correlation.  The 2nd vid was one way to show how one hand helps the other.  The 3rd video is Sifu Gary Lam demonstrating how the hands help each other.

Gary Lam is a great guy.  He teaches out in Los Angeles (Monterey Park).


----------



## Poor Uke

geezer said:


> The second vid on Kuntau blocking _did_ look WC-like, except it didn't emphasize simultaneous defense-attack. And that's a major difference.


 
He was just breaking it down Geezer. Most blocks/deflections come with a control or an attack. Simulatneous block and attack of a weapon weilding arms is a basic premise in FMAs in general.

I think the difference in this case is the target of the attack. With WC the focus is the centre line where as in FMAs its the arms due to the primacy of the weapon.


----------



## Yoshin9

I'm relatively new to Wing Chun but I found the escrima blends well with my Japanese jujutsu, so I think when you have a certain level in two or more arts you find ways to blend them together and it becomes more about principles than specific techniques.


----------



## unladylikedefnse

I agree with @zepedawingchun. Paul Vunak and Harinder Singh Sabharwal integrate esrima with wing chun and also JKD. 



zepedawingchun said:


> Their principles, theories, and concepts are the same or very similar.  Both are flowing arts, also use sensitivity in the training.  Weapons use is similar too.  The good thing about Kali (Escrima) is they teach weapons first, which helps the student get a good grasp of defending themselves much sooner than any other art.


----------

