# FMA origins



## Cthulhu (Mar 17, 2002)

I've been reading Mark Wiley's Arnis: Reflections on the History and Development of the Filipino Martial Arts (say that 3 times fast). 
The book ia a collection of essays and articles dealing with the FMA. The first part of the book deals with the origins of eskrima and arnis. 

The second essay I found particularly interesting.  It was written by a Dr. Ned Nepangue and it basically questions the theory that eskrima and arnis descended from an earlier system called kali.  In the essay, the author states known objective facts and offers his opinions on them, relating to the connection of eskrima and arnis to kali.  I'll just list his listed facts to open up a discussion on them.  For his opinions and conclusions, get the book 



> *Fact 1*
> There are no available written records that describe what the allegedly pre-Hispanic martial art of kali really was, nor is there evidence to prove that eskrima is even related to "the art of kali".
> 
> *Fact 2*
> ...



There was no 'Fact 7' in the book, apparently a misprint or some other mistake.  The listed facts containing geographic and/or anthropologic material are beyond me, since I'm not very familiar with the Philippines.  I find Fact 13 to be particularly interesting, and I'll try to see if I can scare up any info on this _garrote larense_.

Cthulhu


All quoted material is authored by Dr. Ned Nepangue and has not been altered from its presentation given in Wiley's book, the title of which is at the top of this post.  Any spelling errors are my own.


----------



## arnisador (Mar 17, 2002)

Much if not all of this article is reproduced here.

Venezuelan stick-fighting:
http://rajasterlak.silat.4mg.com/garrote/garrote.html


----------



## Cthulhu (Mar 17, 2002)

Thanks for the links, arnisador!  That clears up the missing Fact 7.  

I'll check out that Venezuelan thing in a bit.

Cthulhu


----------



## thekuntawman (Mar 18, 2002)

yes its true that many filipinos, most filipinos do not know there own history. and maybe we aren t the best record keepers, since we like to tell stories to much, and this is why wrong information can get out there. its makes it easy for some people to make things up, even some people who have no idea what they are talking about, and then they put it in print now everybody believes it.

but then in the filipino american community, people are stuggling for trying to become famous, even if its in his own small little pond, and he might tell stories to his younger ones. and see, this is how that bad information gets around. i have been told even by one guy how HIS DAD invented kuntaw, and i should join him because no one will listen to my story since he is famous already in the US (he wasnt). i met a guy who told me that his family combined all the secrets of arnis de mano anyone ever knew, and i should study with him. i was told by another guy that the martial done by the muslims of the philippines comes from china, and thats why i shouldnt call it "ng pilipinas" (of the philippines). and guess what? i was IN the philippines, and not just me, many people believe this and other stories!

when i was there last in 1990, i heard about every filipino style should have "dumug" to be complete (i read it in a american magazine). when i asked my folks about it, they told me it is cow wrestling, so i thought about all kinds of things why a fighter would want to know how to wrestle a karibow. when i was at ernesto presas gym, i remember people coming in asking to learn dumug, and everyone laughed at them "what are you talking about, man?" i had a few friends from LSA (lightning scientific arnis), yaw yan, comjuka and some other eskrima schools, and no one knows what they are talking about. but today, in 2002 i can promise you that every of those schools will teach it to you if your US dollar is green enough.

this is my point, we cant believed everything we hear. and when we hear a new thing, like THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS KINOMUTAI!!! dont get mad, because maybe us pilipinos know what is going on in our country more than someone who never been there. but all these stories about death matches, blind princess, mother arts, they are stories people tell by mouth, and every filipino knows that you can only believe half of the stories our dad and mom tells us, because story telling is a filipino things. but what they TEACH to us is real. eskrima might come from india or china, so what? who can fight with a stick or a knife better than the filipino? well dont believe what anyone tells you, you have to see for yourself. eskrima is a filipino art, and who cares where it came from. dont spent your time worrying about things that dont matter. technique is something you can see and believe. stories canot.


----------



## arnisandyz (Mar 18, 2002)

Pretty much all History of the FMA Pre-Spanish from one Filipino to another was by word of mouth as thekuntawman stated, and stories tend to become legends with time.  We did not have Buddist Monks or the like to record scrolls of our martial art for future generations, they were too busy worried about surviving so there might be another generation.  However, there are Spanish records (so Im told)  that does recall encounters will highly skilled natives they encountered.  A lot history has probably been erased and/or forgotten due to the Spanish repression of all practice of the native martial arts (among other things).


----------



## arnisandyz (Mar 18, 2002)

Sorry to double post, but...I have also heard that Kali survived in its pure form in the unconquered southern mindinao region. Some people may claim to have gotten instruction in the FMA from this region,  however, as my wife told me, there are still areas in the PI were you just don't go.  Claimed headhunters, and canabals, etc are still there.  This coming from a Filipina, 
i find it hard to imagine a westerner could go there and come back to teach Kali.

Again these are just stories I've heard with no hard facts.


----------



## Cthulhu (Mar 18, 2002)

It seems many of the writers in the book (many of them Filipino) discount the idea that eskrima/arnis came from a 'parent art' called kali.  

Andy, remind you to lend you this book when I finish it!

Cthulhu


----------



## arnisandyz (Mar 19, 2002)

Thekuntawman stated in other posts that in the PI, people say there is no such thing as Kali.  I have heard the same thing by way of my uncles who still live there.  Arnis seems to be the most often used term.  I'm not sure if people started using the name Kali for marketing reasons (if people with money want to call it Kali, I'm sure you'll find many filipinos who now teach Kali) or if the people claiming to teach it can trace a lineage back that far.  Most likely, they learned it from someone claiming to teach Kali as well.  Wiley must have had a fun time, huh?


----------



## Cthulhu (Mar 19, 2002)

I think the general consensus is that the name kali was introduced to help market the FMA to us heathen Westerners   One of the authors stated that many systems of arnis/eskrima even changed their names, like Pekiti Tersia Arnis became Pekiti Tersia Kali.

Cthulhu


----------



## thekuntawman (Mar 19, 2002)

i have a confession to make, i did it to. i also called my art filipino karate filipino kung fu, etc. the name of my school in the phone book is "typhoon karate studio"


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman (Mar 19, 2002)

There is nothing wrong with that. The poblic is not edjucated in our field. We must make it easy for them to understand. As I go teach my students the differences.


----------



## arnisandyz (Mar 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by thekuntawman _
> 
> *i have a confession to make, i did it to. i also called my art filipino karate filipino kung fu, etc. the name of my school in the phone book is "typhoon karate studio"  *





I have made similar references in trying to describe the FMA to people with no understanding. When your trying to make a school profitable or at the very least self-supporting, sometimes compromises must be made.  It is not that you try to trick them, but associate with them. Many people, (even Pinoys) are not even aware the PI has a martial art, but they all know Karate, TKD, KungFu.


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman (Mar 19, 2002)

Remy was the first to call FMA Filipino Karate. I see nothing wrong as long as you're not trying to fool them as apose to putting it into terms that they may understand.


----------



## LabanB (Mar 20, 2002)

Hi Guys,

   In my school advert I state "FILIPINO Stickfighting - Kickboxing - Grappling - Knife Defence".

   Guess which one pulls in the questions/interest? Thats right, Kickboxing!! I always make it clear to the interested party that I teach Filipino Kickboxing (yes I know, as Danny Guba has stated "There is no splitting of the arts in the Phillipines. There is no boxing, kicking, trapping, standing grappling, ground grappling. There is only one art. You are attacked, you use whatever you have to to kill the bastard!").

   I have four girls who are new students and who came for the kickboxing. They all say that they think what they are doing is more interesting because it is more varied than simply punch-kick-punch!

  The use of recognisable names/terms simply helps us promote the arts. Without promotion the arts die, which I am assuming none of us want, right?

Bill


----------



## arnisandyz (Mar 21, 2002)

I think most would agree, referring to FMA as "Karate" is like calling a tissue "Kleenex", a photocopy a "Xerox", or a soda a "Coke".   Its a name people associate to a given product.  So to the average person Karate = Martial Art.


----------



## Cthulhu (Mar 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by arnisandyz _
> 
> *I think most would agree, referring to FMA as "Karate" is like calling a tissue "Kleenex", a photocopy a "Xerox", or a soda a "Coke".   Its a name people associate to a given product.  So to the average person Karate = Martial Art. *



To further illustrate this point, most phonebooks I've seen don't have a 'martial arts' section.  Instead, they have a 'Karate and other martial arts instruction' section.

Cthulhu


----------



## sweeper (May 10, 2002)

Hmm..  If Eskrima/Arnis did not develop form a phillipino mother art than where did they come from? I am aware of the spanish influence in terminology and I could see how some of the aproach to teaching could have had a spanish fencing influence (like the use of angles to describe an attack) however the genneral strategies and tactics of phillipino wepon fighting is quite diffrent from european wepon fighting and spanish wepon fighting. So it doesn't realy look like it was derived from spanish fighting systems so where did it come from if not something that was already there?


----------



## Cthulhu (May 10, 2002)

From my limited FMA experience and knowledge, 'espada y daga' is very much Spanish influenced.  However, lack of any substantial written history and the reliance on oral transmission of FMA lore makes it difficult to pin down the origins of many systems.

Cthulhu


----------



## arnisandyz (May 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by sweeper _
> 
> *Hmm..  If Eskrima/Arnis did not develop form a phillipino mother art than where did they come from? ... So it doesn't realy look like it was derived from spanish fighting systems so where did it come from if not something that was already there? *




It will be difficult to trace the origins of an art that is continually evolving.  If you look closely you will see influences of asian, indonesian, spanish, even american fighting systems. IT WOULD BE IMPOSSIBLE to say FMA is from any ONE place of origin as it is an art of many. With the different invaders, traders, allies, etc.  the fighting strategies and style changed with the times.  This could be why one tribe might fight entirely different from another and why there are so many subsystems. Exposure to outsiders may have been different, in different regions. To understand this concept, look at the people.  Do you think Filipinos looked the same now as they did 2000 years ago?  NOT!  The people are a mix of many cultures in many generations.  Spanish just happens to be predominant since they were in the Philippines for such a long time.  But we do not say we are Spanish, we are Filipino! (just like Filipino Martial Art is not Spanish)

So in short, there WAS an indigenous fighting system of the Philippines where the art started, but evolved into something different with different exposure to other fighting systems.  If someone is going to teach you the "mother art" of the Philippines it probably should  consist of rocks and sticks as these are the most basic weapons/tools of any civilization, but most evolve past this.


----------



## sweeper (May 11, 2002)

well from my limited understanding of human tevhnological development we were using spears and bows in addition to the sticks and rocks before we made it to south east asia.

I have heard that there have been some recorded spanish acounts of phillipino wepons use early on in the colonisation, but I was curious if anyone knows of any other earlyer acounts? there have a been a few empires that have come and gone in south east asia and in indonesia, lots of travel in the genneral region and in genneral lots of contact with other cultures so hasn't there been some accounts put into writing concerning somewhat older phillipino weponry and war tactics? I know that south east asia in genneral but particularly throughout indonesia and the phillipines is one of the most culturaly diverse regions in the world and that because of that it would be hard to take any single example of a fighting method and lable it "the mother art" or even "a root" of modern fighting methods but it still seems like it would be interesting.


----------



## arnisandyz (May 11, 2002)

Thats a good point about other (more advanced) civilizations encountering fighting styles of the PI to try and determine how far the native fighting system evolved before outside influences.  I think the first recorded writings were of the Spanish (I may be wrong) who wrote of swords, shields, knives, spears, rocks attached to rope (the yoyo) and sticks, blowguns, and bows (I'm writing this from memory, so i may not have all the facts strait).  If this is the case, of course many outside influences had already reached the PI before the Spanish recordings.


----------



## Wingman (May 12, 2002)

> I think the first recorded writings were of the Spanish (I may be wrong) who wrote of swords, shields, knives, spears, rocks attached to rope (the yoyo) and sticks, blowguns, and bows (I'm writing this from memory, so i may not have all the facts strait).



... and may I add "lantaka" or bamboo cannon.


----------



## arnisandyz (May 12, 2002)

A couple of years ago a distant cousin visiting us from PI showed me how to make, what he then called a lantaka.  Its was basically (in its modern state) a noisemaker Filipinos use in celebrations consisting of a six pack of aluminum cans (we used beer cans and of course had to empty them), the ends cut open and attached end to end with tape ( I think the bottom can wasn't opened up).  a small pinhole is punched into the bottom can and injected with lighter fluid then lit.Seemed a bit dangerous at the time!

The way I understand it, this was a pretty crude weapon like the musket loader, not very accurate and probably many exploded on the person shooting it.  Maybe thats why FMA developed into a highly skilled blade art! No one wanted to shoot it!  Anyways, i'm guessing gunpowder was "borrowed" from the Chinese.  Not to take anything away from Filipino inginuity, but why invent something when you can get it already made. 

As a side note,  I remember reading somewhere someone's essay on FMA. He said the next logical transition for FMA would be Firearm tactics (I think he meant with Glocks and not lataka!!)


----------



## sweeper (May 13, 2002)

had no clue they used hand cannons predating the spanish in the phillipines.

Now for another question...   I havn't realy been practicing FMA that seriously and havn't researched it to much depth but one thing that seems to be missing (from what I have seen at least ;-p) from phillipino military history is accounts of phillipino military tactics when fighting in large groups. For example in the story about megelon(sp) being killed by lapulapu weren't there 1500 phillipinoes waiting for 49 portugues? well I assume they weren't just lined up, and I assume (though a baseless assuption) that it wasn't common to rally 1500 soldiers for combat. But in phillipino combat involving more than a handfull of fighters fighting another handfull how is combat directed? Or is it at all even? considering the terrain in some regions I could understand if battals were esencialy groups of small "squads" fighting but like I said I know nothing about it.


----------



## arnisandyz (May 13, 2002)

Maybe they fought similar to the "bolo battallions" fought in WW2.  With the best fighter at the point, gaining an entry cut (and/or disarm) then moving on to the next, leaving the wounded for the people behind him to finish off.  I read about this in Leo Giron's book.  Also while at a seminar Chris Sayoc's crew gave a demo of the Sayoc family fighting strategy, again, putting the best fighter in front and using the others (sometimes women and children) to reload the knives of the pointman, finishing off downed opponents and throwing blades.  But it all centers on the point.  I wouldn't count out jungle warefare strategies similar to the Vietnamese.  I also understand many battles happen by way of execution, sneeking in at night and ending it quietly.

The idea of the pointman could explain how LapuLapu got to Magellean before anyone else, just a guess.


----------



## thekuntawman (May 13, 2002)

sweeper, you wrote

Hmm.. If Eskrima/Arnis did not develop form a phillipino mother art than where did they come from? I am aware of the spanish influence in terminology and I could see how some of the aproach to teaching could have had a spanish fencing influence (like the use of angles to describe an attack) however the genneral strategies and tactics of phillipino wepon fighting is quite diffrent from european wepon fighting and spanish wepon fighting. So it doesn't realy look like it was derived from spanish fighting systems so where did it come from if not something that was already there?

the philippine martial arts develop just like the fighting styles of any other place, that people take the best fighting techniques they can find, and then adopted it into his own technique. the story of all fighting arts coming to one art, or one man, those are stories, like ones each culture has for where man came from. the history goes back to far to say exactly what the history is, especially what date it goes to.

the philippine people dint write down to much because facts about history like dates, who did what and things like that are not important to us. just like how our silat is different from indonesian because of what is important to the filipino is different from what indonesians like (we dont practice langka and form). when we trace history, we usually go back only one or two generations, and our own history, when we talk to the younger ones. some stories, like the ones with a morale to it, or the history of a certain person or thing that happened (another morale), these things get passed down.

now the chinese and japanese trace there own history back in books and stories, but the filipino is not too interested in that, when it comes to a fighting technique. what is important, is does it work, how did the last few generations developed this style, and what can i learn about them that can make me a better fighter. when my teachers talked to me about the past, they went to how the art developed in the last generation and then his, and why he believed it is a superior fighting technique, then like all teachers, one day they tell you to go out and live your own stories to tell your kids and students.


----------



## sweeper (May 13, 2002)

well I would agree that in practice it doens't matter how a martial art came to be, just how you apply it and how effective it is. But it is kind of interesting..  If when the spanish came blade fighting wasn't prevelant than in around 300 years a rather developed sword fighting system came to be..
[qoute]the philippine martial arts develop just like the fighting styles of any other place, that people take the best fighting techniques they can find, and then adopted it into his own technique.[/qoute]
Most every other part of the world that has system of sword/blade fighting has had a fairly long history of use of bladed weapons, wether japanese, chinese, or itallian blades have been used in those regions for over 2000 years, the weapons evolved and so did the fighting methods.

Point being it's just rather interesting how quickly sword and knife fighting evolved in the phillipines.


----------

