# Elbow strikes



## JamesB (Jan 8, 2006)

Forgot to ask my instructor at the weekend so I'll post this here for everyone else to have a go at  

Inward or output elbows, executed at shoulder height. What is the correct orientation of the forearm and wrist when executing these basics? The options are, palm down, or palm facing towards yourself (i.e. a horizontal vs vertical alignment of the wrist).

my guess is 'horizontal' alignment.

second question. When including a 'slap check' to the opposite shoulder during the execution of these basics (using the same arm as used for striking, just prior to the strike). Why would this be preferred over using the 'spare' hand to slap-check the *same* shoulder that is used for the strike? 

For example, I execute a right-outward-elbow, with a right-slap-check to my left-shoulder, prior to the strike. This aligns my shoulders 'somehow'. But imagine I instead used my left hand to slap-check my right shoulder as I did the right-outward-elbow (i.e. bracing the shoulder..or not). Why would I prefer the first method over this last one? same goes for an inward elbow. Is it something to do with the orientation of the arm (and therefore the shoulder-joint) that means a slap-check to the same shoulder is not advisable?

Maybe Dr Chapel or any of his students would like to answer this last question!

thanks,
James


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## michaeledward (Jan 8, 2006)

My guess, or thought, is palm down. 

Looking at in inward elbow, if my hand is palm up, I don't have the correct part of the elbow making contact with the target. And it seems that there would not be proper bracing angle in a palm up inward. 

This is less obvious when looking at the outward elbow.


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## green meanie (Jan 8, 2006)

I'm going with palm down too.


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Jan 8, 2006)

JamesB said:
			
		

> Forgot to ask my instructor at the weekend so I'll post this here for everyone else to have a go at
> 
> Inward or output elbows, executed at shoulder height. What is the correct orientation of the forearm and wrist when executing these basics? The options are, palm down, or palm facing towards yourself (i.e. a horizontal vs vertical alignment of the wrist).
> 
> ...


 
Actually, they wouldn't be in the same position for both.   

For the rear elbow at shoulder height, the hand should be rotated so the palm is out and thumb down.   This prevents the arm from being pulled downward and back into a hammerlock and allows you to torque thru your next motion with the arm.

For the forward horizontal, the palm would be down, however, when doing a diagonal, which will launch horizontally, the arm & wrist should stay fused and locked with the arm as it travels on the X. which means it will rotate from palm down to almost palm out.

DarK LorD


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## Henderson (Jan 8, 2006)

I do not practice kenpo, but as far as elbow strikes go, I perform two.  Inward (yoko hijiate) and upward (hijiate).  The hand position for the inward strike is palm down.  For the upward it is bottomfist up.

I will not comment on the "slap checking" thing.

Respectfully, 

Frank


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## jdinca (Jan 8, 2006)

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> Actually, they wouldn't be in the same position for both.
> 
> For the rear elbow at shoulder height, the hand should be rotated so the palm is out and thumb down. This prevents the arm from being pulled downward and back into a hammerlock and allows you to torque thru your next motion with the arm.
> 
> ...



Palm rotating out on two of those is interesting. We teach palm down on shoulder height elbow strikes.


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## michaeledward (Jan 8, 2006)

I think the direction of the strike is what has some bearing on the differences being mentioned. 

The rear elbow strike in Short 1 is palm-up, right?

JamesB asked about 'inward' and 'outward' elbow strikes.

Dark Kenpo Lord answered with information about a 'rear elbow' strike, 'at shoulder height', that makes it hard to get the palm-up like in Short 1. 

There are lots of directions, and lots of angles available. I like his description for the inward-downward strike "the wrist and arm would stay fused with the arm" ... as I attempt it, my wrist is right in front of my shoulder (these two joints can't quite touch - the elbow doesn't bend far enough).


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## JamesB (Jan 8, 2006)

thanks for the replies so far, lots of good information there. Hopefully everyone is clear about what elbow-strikes I am talking about....both of these strikes (inward+outward) are horizontal relative to the ground, and at my own shoulder height. I think maybe I use different terminology to DKL hence the confusion? From a horse-stance my inward-eblow would head towards 12, the outward-elbow towards 3/9 o'clock.

looks like the consensus is 'palm-down' anyway..

thanks,
James


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## Doc (Jan 8, 2006)

JamesB said:
			
		

> Forgot to ask my instructor at the weekend so I'll post this here for everyone else to have a go at
> 
> Inward or output elbows, executed at shoulder height. What is the correct orientation of the forearm and wrist when executing these basics? The options are, palm down, or palm facing towards yourself (i.e. a horizontal vs vertical alignment of the wrist).
> 
> my guess is 'horizontal' alignment.


That's a good guess James. keep in mind however we are talking about shoulder height. All anatomical movements are height width and depth sensitive and can change significantly according to the activity. A good example is the backward elbow, executed palm up, hand open.


> second question. When including a 'slap check' to the opposite shoulder during the execution of these basics (using the same arm as used for striking, just prior to the strike). Why would this be preferred over using the 'spare' hand to slap-check the *same* shoulder that is used for the strike?


First let me correct your terminology although "slap-check" is genrally acceptable, the specific term is a *"BAM." (Body Alignment Mechanism)* Second, the mistaken notion by some is the alignement is created at the execution shoulder, therefore hitting that shoulder should be acceptable by either hand. This is incorrect. The alignment is specifically, (in this case) created by the "Counter Resistance" effect of the BAM at the opposite shoulder. The Counter Resistance sets the alignment for the anatomical position of the limb, not the "hit' on the execution shoulder. Many have attempted to mimic Ed Parker's "slap-check," but in truth, where, when, and how you execute these type movements can also have a negative effect on you in combat, if you don'y know what you're doing. Every BAM Execution is specific to a defined set of parameters. Some use them for sound effects or to accelerate their movements improperly. Great in a demo, but if they are ever struck when doing this in combat, they'll pay the price.


> For example, I execute a right-outward-elbow, with a right-slap-check to my left-shoulder, prior to the strike. This aligns my shoulders 'somehow'.


That is correct sir.


> But imagine I instead used my left hand to slap-check my right shoulder as I did the right-outward-elbow (i.e. bracing the shoulder..or not). Why would I prefer the first method over this last one?


See above.


> same goes for an inward elbow.


The inward elbow is different, and although an alignment BAM can be achieved through Counter Resistance at the opposite shoulder, alignment can also be achieved through other means. Technique sequences utilize verious methods according to the circumstances of execution.


> Is it something to do with the orientation of the arm (and therefore the shoulder-joint) that means a slap-check to the same shoulder is not advisable?


Reserve the bulk of your energy to knowing "when" to use "which" in your quest for execution excellence. If you bog yourself down with wanting to know "why" on every little thing, you (as Ed Parker taught me) "... won't have time to learn 'how.' Knowing 'why' does not insure you can "do." There are a plethora of so called "professors" that will give you weird answers on things they know nothing about. Just concentrate on beng as good as you can at executing. Your knowledge is accumulated over time by "doing." 

"Nothing is more detrimental to development that trying to be a warrior and a scholar at the same time." - Dr. Ron Chap&#233;l


> Maybe Dr Chapel ...  would like to answer this last question!
> thanks,
> James


Done!


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## JamesB (Jan 8, 2006)

Doc said:
			
		

> First let me correct your terminology although "slap-check" is genrally acceptable, the specific term is a *"BAM." (Body Alignment Mechanism)*


 
ah ok, wasn't sure about that..



			
				Doc said:
			
		

> The inward elbow is different, and although an alignment BAM can be achieved through Counter Resistance at the opposite shoulder, alignment can also be achieved through other means. Technique sequences utilize verious methods according to the circumstances of execution.


 
somehow I guessed that going to be the case lol  



			
				Doc said:
			
		

> Nothing is more detrimental to development that trying to be a warrior and a scholar at the same time."


 
point taken, thanks Doc  

james


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## kenposikh (Jan 8, 2006)

Funny you should bring this topic up JamesB as myself and a training partner were testing this just the other day with regards to an outward elbow and found that the BAM aligns the body and the strength of the elbow strike and that a subsequent slapcheck would misalign.

Haven't had a chance to check it with my instructor yet but I believ Doc has answered this for me unless I read it wrong.

Amrik


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## Doc (Jan 8, 2006)

kenposikh said:
			
		

> Funny you should bring this topic up JamesB as myself and a training partner were testing this just the other day with regards to an outward elbow and found that the BAM aligns the body and the strength of the elbow strike and that a subsequent slapcheck would misalign.
> 
> Haven't had a chance to check it with my instructor yet but I believ Doc has answered this for me unless I read it wrong.
> 
> Amrik


Yes sir, as you know from our many conversations and interactions, that answer is always - "It depends. General rules and information will always give you general results." - Ron Chap&#233;l

Next question?


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## Maltair (Jan 9, 2006)

Doc said:
			
		

> Next question?


 
Is this correct for an inward elbow?
Starting at the chambered position with palm up. I've always made a point to end with palm down. Feels like a better range of motion.


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## Doc (Jan 9, 2006)

Maltair said:
			
		

> Is this correct for an inward elbow?
> Starting at the chambered position with palm up. I've always made a point to end with palm down. Feels like a better range of motion.


Be specific. What do you call "chambered."


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## MJS (Jan 9, 2006)

Doc said:
			
		

> Be specific. What do you call "chambered."


 
I think he may be talking about hands at the sides, above belt level.

Mike


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## MJS (Jan 9, 2006)

Maltair said:
			
		

> Is this correct for an inward elbow?
> Starting at the chambered position with palm up. I've always made a point to end with palm down. Feels like a better range of motion.


 
Hands at chamber or up, the palm should face down.  A rising elbow, the palm is facing towards the head.

Mike


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## Doc (Jan 11, 2006)

Maltair said:
			
		

> Is this correct for an inward elbow?
> Starting at the chambered position with palm up. I've always made a point to end with palm down. Feels like a better range of motion.


Mr. Martin, I can't help you unless you give me specific information. Please describe what you consider a "chambered position."


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## jdinca (Jan 12, 2006)

Hmm, I originally said palm down, which turned out to be a partial answer. I was working on some techniques last night that involved elbow strikes to the head. The arm starts palm up in the set position and rotates to the palm down position as I do the strike.


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## DavidCC (Jan 13, 2006)

A few weeks ago, I suffered a strain to my neck (from a prolonged cross-face press form a 250lb partner - I should have tapped a lot earlier LOL) but anyway... my neck was sore.  As I practiced thsi outward elbow with BAM to opopsite shoulder, I could feel all kinds of things shifting and re-aligning in my neck and shoulders that I did not previsouly feel.  I can't really describe what was going on, and since my neck recovered I don't feel those little tweaks anymore.  But this indicated to me that the BAM was definately doing something interesting to my upper body.  

Which I really already knew, since the experiment we did where I used the BAM and a 300lb black belt couldn't move my elbow, no BAM and a 120 lb white belt could.

We are all looking forward to seeing you again in the midwest, Doc!

-D


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## Maltair (Jan 13, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> I think he may be talking about hands at the sides, above belt level.
> 
> Mike


Thats what I'm talking about. Like at the begining of forms.


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## bujuts (Jan 26, 2006)

The idea is to strike using the tip of the elbow and/or the last two inches (or so) of the forearm using the ulna as the striking surface.  To expose the ulna, the palm must simply orthogonal to the path of action.

Cheers,

Steven Brown
UKF


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## kenposikh (Jan 27, 2006)

bujuts said:
			
		

> The idea is to strike using the tip of the elbow and/or the last two inches (or so) of the forearm using the ulna as the striking surface. To expose the ulna, the palm must simply orthogonal to the path of action.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> ...


 
Say what sorry Steve but your statement just doesn't seem to make sense to me here. The Ulna is the bone of the elbow/forearm which with the palm face up is on the opposite side to the thumb (so I believe). For the palm to be orthagonal (at right angles) to the path of action doesn't make sense either. For example take a right back elbow from a horse stance, would you agree the path of action is from 12 to 6 if so then for the palm to be at right angles it can be facing upwards, to the left or downwards.

Please do not take this the wrong way but I do hate the use of pseudo scientific terminology within kenpo a lot of people use it to say a lot but actually say nothing.

thoughts


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## Doc (Jan 27, 2006)

bujuts said:
			
		

> The idea is to strike using the tip of the elbow and/or the last two inches (or so) of the forearm using the ulna as the striking surface.  To expose the ulna, the palm must simply orthogonal to the path of action.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> ...


That would be incorrect sir. The hand relative to the unlna depends upon application, and your example is incorrect.


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## bujuts (Jan 28, 2006)

kenposikh said:
			
		

> For the palm to be orthagonal (at right angles) to the path of action doesn't make sense either.



All I'm saying is that when I throw a vertical rising elbow, my palm is facing inward.  I will keep the same relative orientation of the palm and the forearm.  When striking with a horizontal inward elbow, my palm will be down.

Thanks for the dialogue, all.  I enjoy this forum, I usually don't get a whole lot of technical input from the kenponet, so appreciate the opportunity you all offer.

Cheers,

Steven Brown
UKF


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## Doc (Jan 28, 2006)

bujuts said:
			
		

> All I'm saying is that when I throw a vertical rising elbow, my palm is facing inward.  I will keep the same relative orientation of the palm and the forearm.  When striking with a horizontal inward elbow, my palm will be down.
> Steven Brown
> UKF


Yeah you'll be tested over here. The guys are really smart and you must come with your "A" game. On the vertical rising elbow we agree, however without accessing the autonomic nervous system utilizing a PNF mechanism, it too will be weaker than it could be if done correctly. Stay here. Don't go back to Kenponet.


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