# Christian Left vs. Christian Right



## shesulsa (Nov 10, 2004)

I started this thread because some Christians who do not support the GOP or the so-called "moral majority" or do not align themselves with the "Christian Right" become offended when we speak of the "Christian Right" in general terms.

 I for one do not believe that all Christians are right-wing nor subscribe to the general moral majority, though I think the "Christian Right" is a group we refer to as the concensus of people who are pro-capital punishment, anti-abortion, anti-assisted suicide, etc.

 Sound off if you call yourself Christian and either do or do not consider yourself part of the "Christian Right" and why.


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## Feisty Mouse (Nov 10, 2004)

From other posts I've written, it's pretty obvious I should be here.  

The most important message my faith has presented, over and over, is "Love your neighbor as thyself".  

To me, this means I should care for other people, even if I don't know them, even if they are not particularly nice to me... it's my duty.

This ethic of compassion and brotherly love leads me to support, politically, a number of different values.

1) Support unions and unionization.  Give your hardworking neighbors a chance to speak for themselves against large corporations that are more concerned about making more money than a living wage, excessive overtime, or health insurance for their families.

2) Support healthcare for all Americans, regardless of income.  Yes, socialized healthcare.  I'm trying to find out more about Denmark and how they do it so well there.

3) Against the death penalty.  a) our legal system as made mistakes in the past and executed innocent people - that is on our hands.  b) We were supposed to be moving away from this "eye for an eye" stuff. 

4) Allow women control over their own reproductive health.  I want my neighbor to be healthy and happy.  Birth control eductation and safe-sex education will not make kids run out and have sex.  But it will protect them.

5) Support welfare.  A perfect system?  No, but we know the world isn't perfect.  Letting our neighbors starve - or their children starve - is unacceptible.

6) End pollution and environmental degredation.  The needless destruction of the natural environment is a sin, quite frankly.  We are making the lives of people living today - and future generations - more miserable because of our current practices and what we allow large groups and companies to get away with.

7) End hate crimes.  Even those some profess to perform for religious reasons (i.e. killing homosexuals; murdering abortion doctors).  No no no no no.  

That's all for now....


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## Touch Of Death (Nov 10, 2004)

I consider myself Christian-esque and I consider the Death penalty a bad move. The death penalty begats the death penalty. People will go to extremes to avoid it or worse yet use the old, "in for a penny in for a pound" philisophy and once again kill more people than needed for whatever situation. There was a scuicide in Britain not to long ago that also killed 30 people. It can be a goal for some. Its really only a detourant for sane clear headed people.
Sean


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## Adept (Nov 10, 2004)

The death penalty might not be the greatest of deterrents, but it serves as punishment as well. It is also the ultimate prevention of recidivism.

 Sorry to drag the thread off topic. I'm neither christian nor right or left oriented. I like to call myself an extremist, since I take some extreme left views and some extreme right views.


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## Tgace (Nov 10, 2004)

On categorization....



> We have seen the enemy - and it's us
> 
> 11/9/2004
> By MITCH ALBOM
> ...


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## AnimEdge (Nov 10, 2004)

I think the death penilty is the greatest, but i am also a Texan 
I believe in "Eye for a Eye" punishment, if a guy robs my house, i should get to go rob his, if he stabs me i shoudl get ta stab him, that knida thing, why does a crimal who rapes and kill people get to spend the rest of there life in a cell with cable and internet access and food and ect ect ect eh they should get the DP i think, but thats just me, i also think that WB shows on TV promote teen sex, but hey who listens right?


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## shesulsa (Nov 10, 2004)

I like that, Tgace!

 The us vs. them arguments are tired and outdated, I think.  It's time we all see each other as people we respect and though might disagree, work towards tolerance rather than in-fighting and work to make the government work more for the people again.

 We can reach out a hand to someone we don't agree with and open our minds.  We can forgo legislation against rights in favor of legislation against waste. 

 Can we come together and forget who's left and who's right?


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## Tgace (Nov 10, 2004)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> I like that, Tgace!
> 
> The us vs. them arguments are tired and outdated, I think. It's time we all see each other as people we respect and though might disagree, work towards tolerance rather than in-fighting and work to make the government work more for the people again.
> 
> ...


When we make categories, we automatically put people into them or we place ourselves in them. We seem to have taken points of views and turned them into the equivalents of "gangs". People seem to be identifying themselves more with these "camps" than they are as countrymen.

Ideological Civil War II?? The geographic boundaries seem to be drawing along similar lines.


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## TigerWoman (Nov 10, 2004)

I'm not crazy about labels about being "right" or "left".  I think I'm all over that map. I also believe in treating your neighbor as yourself at least until they sneak into your house and rob you or say they are a better Christian and find fault with you and then I turn off.  Sure, forgive your neighbor but not continue to take grief.  And in that way, I won't turn the other cheek, guilty. 

I think we should have capital punishment.  There are arguments both ways for it being a deterrent or not.  But if someone killed my kid, I would rather the people decide that and do the same, than for me to take justice in my own hands to do it. Such scum of the earth have no right to live and be supported by taxpayers even in prison. It is the best system, not flawless, but the best without being God ourselves. 

I believe women should have rights about their own bodies.  It is between God and you, not you and the government. I was age twenty in the era of back alley abortionists and so many women were butchered on those tables because it wasn't legal.  I don't want to return there.  As long as there are decent doctors willing to help women support their choices, the government or moral majority has no right to dictate their beliefs over a woman's own. Not in her shoes.
TW


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## Feisty Mouse (Nov 10, 2004)

I also think getting into one "camp" or the other isn't helpful.  At the start of the thread, though, it seemed like a good chance to explain to other people who automatically might group me in with them ("Christians") and then expound upon "our values", which are often diametrically opposed.

I'm really tired of people on TV, people I know, telling me what it must be that I think or believe in, because of a label that has connotations for them, rather than letting me tell them where I stand.

"Christian?  You must hate queers!"  Things like that that make me ill.


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## heretic888 (Nov 10, 2004)

Well, there's clearly a "left" side to Christianity....

groups like the Unitarian-Universalits, Religious Society of Friends, Liberal Catholics, and Gay/Lesbian Catholics suddenly come to mind.

Big difference is these guys don't have television channels and radio stations devoted to spewing their stuff out 24/7. That, and they don't control a considerable portion of our government.


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## Ping898 (Nov 10, 2004)

I never remember from one day to the next whether I am considered a left or right-sided Christian.  The labels always confuse me, but anyways, I probably fall to the left side here based upon other views.  
I second what most have already said, especially Feisty in terms of what should and shouldn't be happening.  I guess my biggest issue with the current administration is I feel like they are trying to force Christian values on everyone and I don't like that because not everyone is a Christian and even those of us that are, not everyone interprets or believes exactly the same thing.  
Like, I won't have an abortion, and will do everything to talk a friend or anyone else out of one, but will not deny them the right to have a abortion if morally they don't have a problem with it and will not stop being their friend if they have one.
One of my biggest fears is that this amendment the current christians with power are pushing to ban gay marriage will happen.  As far as I am concerned marriage is 2 things, 1st a religious institution/sacrement etc, and 2nd a convient word we use in non-religious society to talk of the union of two people.  People can get married in the eyes of the church and not in the state and in the eyes of the state and not the eyes of the church.  I see no reasons why two gay people can't be married or unionized in some way and get the same state benefits as anyone else.  But the religious fraction is pushing hard for that not to happen.  I kind of feel like next they are going to go after Divorce, cause you know that remarrying violates various religious edicts as well.....and what about removing kids from home where there are two unmarried parents?...they are supposedl living in sin too...the religious groups in power scare me sometimes.  I can't tell when they will feel like they've gotten enough:idunno:.


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## Touch Of Death (Nov 10, 2004)

AnimEdge said:
			
		

> I think the death penilty is the greatest, but i am also a Texan
> I believe in "Eye for a Eye" punishment, if a guy robs my house, i should get to go rob his, if he stabs me i shoudl get ta stab him, that knida thing, why does a crimal who rapes and kill people get to spend the rest of there life in a cell with cable and internet access and food and ect ect ect eh they should get the DP i think, but thats just me, i also think that WB shows on TV promote teen sex, but hey who listens right?


"Eye for an Eye" is a call for restraint. It means if the guy robs your house, Killing him later might be a bit harsh. The Texan twist on it, is just that, a twist.
Sean


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## heretic888 (Nov 10, 2004)

I find it interesting that "Christians" claim to support capital punishment --- given the New Testament's attitude on such practices.


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## Tgace (Nov 10, 2004)

"For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same; for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evil" (Romans 13:3-4)

"Do not think that I came to abolish the law or the prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill" (Matthew 5:17).

And the Old Testament is clear on its stance.


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## heretic888 (Nov 10, 2004)

Because those are _so_ clear-cut and obvious in their meaning.


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## heretic888 (Nov 10, 2004)

> And the Old Testament is clear on its stance.



Ummm.... thou shalt not kill??  :uhyeah:


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## Tgace (Nov 10, 2004)

"Whoever sheds man's blood, by man his blood will be shed, for in the image of God He made man" (Genesis 9:6)

http://www.forerunner.com/forerunner/X0131_Capital_Punishment.html


> Murder, then, is not just a crime against man ... it is a crime against God who created man. For that reason, only the death of the murderer can satisfy God's justice. Capital punishment is detailed in many places in the Old Testament - Exodus 21:12-15; Leviticus 24:17-21; Numbers 35:9-34; Deuteronomy 21:1-9. It is also clearly affirmed in the New Testament by the Apostle Paul



Google is such a great tool.


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## Tgace (Nov 10, 2004)

http://www.leaderu.com/issues/fabric/chap04.html



> Christian Perspectives
> The religious implications of the issue are profound. From beginning to end the Bible speaks of the death penalty and how it is to be used. God Himself used it to judge both individuals and nations, and He ordered judges, kings, and rulers to use it to maintain order and sovereignty. The Mosaic Law established death as the penalty for murdernot for killing, which is a different word in Hebrew, as it is in English (see Genesis 9:6). As in times of war, killing may be justified; but murder, on the other hand, is a crime to be punished by death.
> 
> Some have said that Jesus set aside the Old Testament law in the Sermon on the Mount by telling His followers to "turn the other cheek." But in His sermon, Jesus is telling them to leave matters of the law to the authorities; Christians are not to seek personal vengeance but to love one anothereven their enemies.
> ...


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## heretic888 (Nov 10, 2004)

An intriguing statement concerning Paul.

Especially considering the Acts of the Apostles is a late 2nd century forgery (first referenced around 185 CE, and blatantly contradicting Paul's own accounts in Galatians)...., 

and that the "rulers" Paul references are _archones_ in the original Greek -- which have nothing at all to do with legal authorities, but with supernatural demon-powers which control the physical kenoma.


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## Rich Parsons (Nov 10, 2004)

I was raised in a Christian House Hold. 

What I have been told by my own Extended Family Members who are Fundamentalist Christians, just like what most of the "Moral Majority".
"You cannot believe in God. You know too much about science. You study Electrons and Nucleons (* Spelling incorrectly as it is a quote *), and other little things, that no man should no about or understand."

"You are excommunicated from our church, for you openness to others"

These two stick in my mind. 

When, I was younger back in the early to mid 80's, I had a quote, "Hi, I am Rich, the 'Self' Elected President of the Immoral Minority, just under 6 Billion strong. As the Moral Majority and their Million Members exclude everyone else who is not in their group. Oh, How did I get, the job, I voted myself in. You want to vote yourself the Emperor or goddess, then do so." 

What gets me is the Self-righteous way, that many approach me, and that is if I do not believe the same way they do, then I am immediately wrong. Nice close mindedness, in my opinion. 


When people ask what Religion I am, I reply Zen Christian.  I walk the path, I walk and I do not expect anyone else to walk the same path or with me. I do expect them to walk their own path, and ours is the same path for a while that is fine. Yet, their experiences will be different then mine would be, and hence a truly different path, even though it might look the same from the outside. My beliefs do not exclude anyone else. For my beliefs are that there were / are messages that people need to hear. Either for cultural development or for survival, and those messages were different, in different time periods and to locations.  For a Protestant to  presume that their interpretation is the only, most certainly upsets the Catholics, as well as the Jewish and Muslims. Yet, could it not be that there were more than one message sent, by multiple people? The problem with Religion is that it tries to freeze the people or its members into a state of being. The Jews acknowledge the prophets up through Muhammad, yet are still waiting for the Son of God. Which upsets the Christians. The Christians recognize the prophets up to Jesus Christ, and that is the end of it, and there can be none greater. The Muslims recognize the prophets up to Muhammad, and since he was the last he was the greatest (* Sunni who believe that Muhammads' Nephew was also a prophet, I believe *).  Now could not, a great being who many call "God", have planned to talk to different people at different times, with a message to help them? Yet, humans and their egos get involved, and now it has to be that this one that they belong to is the best and only truth.  


I have had nice discussions with some ministers and priests of different churches and religions. I have also had good discussions with those who educate themselves, beyond the immediate rhetoric. Yet, when people get the knee jerk reactions about their religions, when someone asks a question, for they have also questioned their belief or the faith, then I have a problem. The religious right, seem to be the biggest, knee jerkers to me. They get upset, and feel threatened by questions or actions of others. They want it their way. Well, I want it my way, and I think the U.S. Constitution supports my way of each person who makes up a portion of 'The People" have the right for religious freedom, and that it shall not be forced upon them.

My thoughts and not yours.

PS: I also dated a nice young lady who is a Minister. She actually restored my faith in women kind after a nasty divorce. We were just not 'Right' for each other, and her new boyfriend is a great guy and better for her.  We are still friends, I even have two of her cats while she is overseas, doing her duty as a Navy Chaplain.


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## Tgace (Nov 10, 2004)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> An intriguing statement concerning Paul.
> 
> Especially considering the Acts of the Apostles is a late 2nd century forgery (first referenced around 185 CE, and blatantly contradicting Paul's own accounts in Galatians)....,
> 
> and that the "rulers" Paul references are _archones_ in the original Greek -- which have nothing at all to do with legal authorities, but with supernatural demon-powers which control the physical kenoma.


Whatever...I just thought that you were implying that Christians who were for the death penalty had no basis for it in the New Testament. Like anything else in the Bible, you can find something to support your point.


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## heretic888 (Nov 10, 2004)

Once again... nicely done, Rich.  :asian: 

Couple things I'd like to add:

1) I don't suppose it ever occured to people that "God" isn't a being at all?? That the anthropomorphization of the divine in religious texts is something of a facade, a mask, a symbol?? Maybe??

2) Unfortunately, I would argue that that "one and only truth" is a natural stage in the evolution of the human psyche. In Piagetian developmentalism, it is referred to as concrete-operational cognition. Jean Gebser referred to "mythic absolutism". Its not necessarily a "bad" thing, but in a postconventional society like the United States its probably not something most adults should be fixated on.

3) There are strands in most religions that advocate the divine speaks to different people in different ways. Its a shame these aren't focused on more.

4) It was a great disservice to the history of the Western world, in my opinion, that Manicheism never took root as a world religion and was instead destroyed by what later became Catholicism. Mani in many ways advocated much of the ideals that Rich is pronouncing.

5) Zen Christian?? HAH! I love it. 

Laterz.


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## heretic888 (Nov 10, 2004)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Whatever...I just thought that you were implying that Christians who were for the death penalty had no basis for it in the New Testament. Like anything else in the Bible, you can find something to support your point.



Point taken. 

But, that stuff about "Paul" is still a load of dookey.


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## someguy (Nov 10, 2004)

An eye for an eye makes the world blind.
got to run


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## hardheadjarhead (Nov 10, 2004)

I thought this was an interesting link for those that consider themselves members of the Christian Left.

I'm just a little link monkey, ain't I?


http://www.jesusonthefamily.org/


Regards,


Steve


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## Makalakumu (Nov 10, 2004)

Tgace said:
			
		

> On categorization....



All this fear cannot be coincidence?

Fnords anyone?

Can you imagine what life would be like if we didn't have to fear as much as we do, I mean really, how many of these _prophecies_, really come about?  Maybe we'd see that we don't need the government's hands in our pockets, eyes on our backs, and words in our mouths...


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## Makalakumu (Nov 10, 2004)

TigerWoman said:
			
		

> I was age twenty in the era of back alley abortionists and so many women were butchered on those tables because it wasn't legal.  I don't want to return there.  As long as there are decent doctors willing to help women support their choices, the government or moral majority has no right to dictate their beliefs over a woman's own. Not in her shoes.
> TW



If you could pay for it, you got your abortion hands down.  There was no butchery for some.  If you were poor, you get to make the decision, starve slowly and drag the family down, or use the coat hanger...

The Rights position on abortion is nothing but a copout.  Abortions STILL will happen.  Babies will STILL die.  Yet, that ethical easy road beckons and it makes them feel so good that they are actually saving those _poor _ children.  

The bottom line is that people are having abortions because this "culture of life" the Right promotes happens to have a rather large (actually gargantuan) gap between birth and death.

This is a complex problem and no "law" will solve it.  It's going to take people who really care about their morals and who really care about life.


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## Makalakumu (Nov 10, 2004)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> I find it interesting that "Christians" claim to support capital punishment --- given the New Testament's attitude on such practices.



Capital punishment, how about war?


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## Tgace (Nov 10, 2004)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> But, that stuff about "Paul" is still a load of dookey.


Maybe. Call the Vatican and maybe they will remove it.  But for now I believe the Church wants us to read it as it stands. I understod the point from the first reading. 

Give to Caesar what is Caesar's. Give to God what is God's


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## heretic888 (Nov 10, 2004)

> Maybe. Call the Vatican and maybe they will remove it.



Nah.

There have been much better attempts at including the now-popular Gospel of Thomas in the canon, than there is in excluding the Pauline pseudapigraphica from it.

In any event, the Vatican's response is the same: the canon is closed, end of subject.


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## Touch Of Death (Nov 10, 2004)

someguy said:
			
		

> An eye for an eye makes the world blind.
> got to run


In the land of the blind, the one eyed are kings.  
Sean


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## Makalakumu (Nov 11, 2004)

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> In the land of the blind, the one eyed are kings.
> Sean



Flip your dollar bill over, man...


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