# Pre-emptive force vs a relaxed state



## Haris Lamboo Faisal (May 12, 2011)

recently while practicing i've noticed a great change ... when you have a good relaxed structure no matter how much strength an opponent puts into an attack ... it seems very easy to deflect or counter apply force ... it seems easier when you are relaxed rather than when you are tense ... simultaneously one's attacks seems somewhat different ... that being said i have also noticed that when the structure is broken or incorrect this completely backfires and the force you meet either goes through or effects you more than it normally would ... my question , is it really the structure that is important here or does this phenomenon have something to do with timing or is it muscle memory and the mind pre epmtively counterbalances the body?


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## tenzen (May 12, 2011)

Its structure man structure is everything. Its like the demo that you see where someone stands on eggshells and has another person try to push them over. If the structure is wrong the eggs will break and you will fall. Imho its all about the elbow. When they push on you during this trick their force is channeled and difused through your elbows. So having the correct structure will give you power and ability that you wouldn't otherwise have. This is one of the reasons we have been telling you to wait and find a qualified instructor.


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal (May 12, 2011)

apologies for bombarding you with the question mate. BUt that was helpful since i have a little bit of knowledge about qi i would like to add that there is a similarity  , qi also requires a relaxed state acquired throught breathing and alignment of the spine head and the lower body and i recently found a book that said that qi excercises are embedded into the sil lim tao form which i can agree with since the straight spine raised yet tucked in neck and relaxed joints are all a part of qi cultivation excercises as well.


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## mook jong man (May 12, 2011)

Let me use this analogy , if I asked you to jump off the roof of a house and you were to tense up the muscles of your legs upon impact with the ground , then the chances are that you will break some bones .

But if you relax your legs upon impact with the ground , then the force should be lessened as the muscles flex and absorb the shock , if you hit the ground and then roll this will even further spread the force of the impact.

How does this apply to Wing Chun you might ask , well it means that relaxed muscles can tolerate great external loads when used in conjunction with the circle .
The circle and the triangle are natures most strongest structures and they are used extensively in Wing Chun to create a perfect fusion of geometrical and anatomical efficiency.


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## tenzen (May 12, 2011)

Exactly. Relax and have good structure and your in there. Tense up and well you know.


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## zepedawingchun (May 13, 2011)

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> apologies for bombarding you with the question mate. BUt that was helpful since i have a little bit of knowledge about qi i would like to add that there is a similarity , qi also requires a relaxed state acquired throught breathing and alignment of the spine head and the lower body and i recently found a book that said that qi excercises are embedded into the sil lim tao form which i can agree with since the straight spine raised yet tucked in neck and relaxed joints are all a part of qi cultivation excercises as well.


 
And where may I ask, did you learn about chi (just curious)?


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## zepedawingchun (May 13, 2011)

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> recently while practicing i've noticed a great change ... when you have a good relaxed structure no matter how much strength an opponent puts into an attack ... it seems very easy to deflect or counter apply force ... it seems easier when you are relaxed rather than when you are tense ... simultaneously one's attacks seems somewhat different ... that being said i have also noticed that when the structure is broken or incorrect this completely backfires and the force you meet either goes through or effects you more than it normally would ...


 
How and where did you see this?


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal (May 13, 2011)

zepedawingchun said:


> How and where did you see this?



 well i learnt about chi from a particular instructor of korena ninjutsu also read about it in the book Chi kung , development and practical application in wing chun kung fu by Dr scott baker , i have it as an e-book. The bit about the force was what i was experimenting with my partner after a session of sil lim tao practice and i definately noticed it was easier to jerk him around ... i meditate and cultivate chi on a daily basis and have been doing so for about two months.


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## wtxs (May 13, 2011)

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> well i learnt about chi from a particular instructor of korena ninjutsu also read about it in the book Chi kung , development and practical application in wing chun kung fu by Dr scott baker , i have it as an e-book. The bit about the force was what i was experimenting with my partner after a session of sil lim tao practice and i definately noticed it was easier to jerk him around ... i meditate and cultivate chi on a daily basis and have been doing so for about two months.



Ninjitsu is Japanese, then you may or may not have learn any thing chi from this Korean instructor.  I've been practice MA since the mid 70's, and I'm not going to tell you that I know what REAL chi is.

Further more you're not going to learn to harness chi from a book ... and how are you to cultivate chi if you have no ideal what it is?


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal (May 13, 2011)

wtxs said:


> Ninjitsu is Japanese, then you may or may not have learn any thing chi from this Korean instructor.  I've been practice MA since the mid 70's, and I'm not going to tell you that I know what REAL chi is.
> 
> Further more you're not going to learn to harness chi from a book ... and how are you to cultivate chi if you have no ideal what it is?



well i actually have good idea what chi is ... it is the energy inside our body and all around us that we can harness through proper breathing , focus and correct use of the mind and the dantien, if you said the same thing to the "korean nintai" master i learnt about chi from i'm pretty sure he would take offense and most likely do something that would probably be close to a broken bone or two ... for it is a long feud and the koreans have been denied recognition of certain ninjutsu and taijutsu techniques that they too practiced along the same timeline as the japanese ofcourse i have seen it and i have felt it so i am confident that what he taught me were indeed chi cultivation excercises i donot know how he came to know about chi in such an in depth way but i trust that what i was told was infact to find a balance so i could properly harness my chi.


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## mook jong man (May 13, 2011)

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> well i learnt about chi from a particular instructor of korena ninjutsu also read about it in the book Chi kung , development and practical application in wing chun kung fu by Dr scott baker , i have it as an e-book. *The bit about the force was what i was experimenting with my partner after a session of sil lim tao practice and i definately noticed it was easier to jerk him around *... i meditate and cultivate chi on a daily basis and have been doing so for about two months.



It's more likely that you just fluked  having your arm in the correct angle and on the centreline more than anything else.

It takes a long time to learn to relax in Wing Chun and there are degrees of relaxation , just find someone to teach you correct technique ie "How to fight" first before you go worrying about the metaphysical stuff.


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## chain punch (May 14, 2011)

I suggest cultivating a strong body and strong lungs as this will help you survive better in combat than chi.  

3 years in BJJ taught me that physical conditioning is key as stamina can disappear very, very quickly when fighting.  Spend your precious time being fitter and stronger than the next guy

Leave the talk of chi to the meditative side of the art and keep it there.

Remember our art is about simplicity and effectiveness.


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## tenzen (May 14, 2011)

Korean ninjutsu huh? Lmmfao. I'm guessing you watched some of gregs videos. Oh excuse me, choson ninja. Yeah he's a fraud buddy. The koreans have what is called un shin bop, it is part of hwa rang do and it covers concealment and stealth, and it does so rather poorly if you ask me. In ancient korea they had sulsa which were spies but they were not ninja or even close to being ninja. Only japan had them. No one else. No one. You want chi go to a qigong or taichi class. slt has some chigong but nothing like what you get from arts that are made to cultivate chi. Wing chun relies more on the mechanics of the body. Go delete that ebook its clouding your brain. 

Yet again this is why we have told you numerous times wait until you find an instructor, these videos and books your trying to learn from are no good and your only going to cause yourself confusion.


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## chain punch (May 14, 2011)

tenzen said:


> Korean ninjutsu huh? Lmmfao. I'm guessing you watched some of gregs videos. Oh excuse me, choson ninja. Yeah he's a fraud buddy. The koreans have what is called un shin bop, it is part of hwa rang do and it covers concealment and stealth, and it does so rather poorly if you ask me. In ancient korea they had sulsa which were spies but they were not ninja or even close to being ninja. Only japan had them. No one else. No one. You want chi go to a qigong or taichi class. slt has some chigong but nothing like what you get from arts that are made to cultivate chi. Wing chun relies more on the mechanics of the body. Go delete that ebook its clouding your brain.
> 
> Yet again this is why we have told you numerous times wait until you find an instructor, these videos and books your trying to learn from are no good and your only going to cause yourself confusion.



Now I agree


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## zepedawingchun (May 14, 2011)

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> well i learnt about chi from a particular instructor of korena ninjutsu also read about it in the book Chi kung , development and practical application in wing chun kung fu by Dr scott baker , i have it as an e-book. The bit about the force was what i was experimenting with my partner after a session of sil lim tao practice and i definately noticed it was easier to jerk him around ... i meditate and cultivate chi on a daily basis and have been doing so for about two months.


 
I know of Scott Baker and have a copy of his e-book. A gung fu brother of mine met him a few years ago and exchanged ideas with him a few times. Nothing all that great. He does work on trying to use chi in Wing Chun, but my gung fu brother stated there was nothing exceptional about what he was doing. His greatest claim to fame is he was in one of the first UFC tournaments and was put down (submitted) very quickly (I don't remember, something like 45 seconds). He has since written extensively about the ordeal and what it would take for a Wing Chun practitioner to survive in that environment. You can read about it on his website.

Continue the meditation and trying to cultivate the chi in whatever exercises you're doing.  It takes years to develop if you practice every day.  Years!


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## zepedawingchun (May 14, 2011)

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> well i actually have good idea what chi is ... it is the energy inside our body and all around us that we can harness through proper breathing , focus and correct use of the mind and the dantien, if you said the same thing to the "korean nintai" master i learnt about chi from i'm pretty sure he would take offense and most likely do something that would probably be close to a broken bone or two ... for it is a long feud and the koreans have been denied recognition of certain ninjutsu and taijutsu techniques that they too practiced along the same timeline as the japanese ofcourse i have seen it and i have felt it so i am confident that what he taught me were indeed chi cultivation excercises i donot know how he came to know about chi in such an in depth way but i trust that what i was told was infact to find a balance so i could properly harness my chi.


 
If he is a true master, he would have no ego to hurt, and thus not take offense, so no broken bones to worry about. However, he might just move you around the room without touching you, just to prove he has the skill.

There are people who claim to have this ability, this way of using chi to move you or knock you out.  I've never seen any of these people who claim it to be able to show it.  It's the ones who don't say anything about it who really have it.  They don't want you to know.


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal (May 14, 2011)

hmm well he was a little hesitant ... anywho fact remains i have still been taught some excercises though the guy did sorta vanish recently lol. Either way getting back to the topic ... this is the progress i've made it isn't much but the link is in the next line i tried to correct a few mistakes pointed out earlier.


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## Eric_H (May 14, 2011)

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> hmm well he was a little hesitant ... anywho fact remains i have still been taught some excercises though the guy did sorta vanish recently lol. Either way getting back to the topic ... this is the progress i've made it isn't much but the link is in the next line i tried to correct a few mistakes pointed out earlier.



Hello,

After viewing your video, I can say that you have obviously studied the appearance of the Yip Family SNT shapes well. Unfortunately it will be hard for you to progress further without a teacher - your kung fu is empty in the sense that the attributes that make those shapes effective are not there. Unfortunately, these things cannot be developed without someone showing you the feeling.

Respect for putting in the effort, I hope you are able to find a teacher soon.


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal (May 14, 2011)

Eric_H said:


> Hello,
> 
> After viewing your video, I can say that you have obviously studied the appearance of the Yip Family SNT shapes well. Unfortunately it will be hard for you to progress further without a teacher - your kung fu is empty in the sense that the attributes that make those shapes effective are not there. Unfortunately, these things cannot be developed without someone showing you the feeling.
> 
> Respect for putting in the effort, I hope you are able to find a teacher soon.



 me too!


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## wtxs (May 14, 2011)

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> well i actually have good idea what chi is ... it is the energy inside our body and all around us that we can harness through proper breathing , focus and correct use of the mind and the dantien, if you said the same thing to the "korean nintai" master i learnt about chi from i'm pretty sure he would take offense and most likely do something that would probably be close to a broken bone or two ... for it is a long feud and the koreans have been denied recognition of certain ninjutsu and taijutsu techniques that they too practiced along the same timeline as the japanese ofcourse i have seen it and i have felt it so i am confident that what he taught me were indeed chi cultivation excercises i donot know how he came to know about chi in such an in depth way but i trust that what i was told was infact to find a balance so i could properly harness my chi.



WOW :eye-popping: you know what chi is and could even harness it ... I'm impressed and I envy you.

WTF is TAIJUTSU???:idunno:  Or do I really want to know ...


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## cwk (May 15, 2011)

Taijutsu translates to body art or body skill. It's basically based around a few basic joint locks trained in an unrealistic fashion for the most part. I trained in it as a young kid for a short while, good fun when your that age, learning all the break falls and rolls and getting to wear a black ninja gi. I grew out of it very quickly though.


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## tenzen (May 15, 2011)

Not all taijutsu is like you said. Taijutsu is a very effective and intriicate martial art. Now with that said I will say that what you experienced was probably from the bujinkan and in that case it has been extremely watered down and is close to ineffective. I would also like to add that it is a a blanket term it does not refer to one art system or style. Saying taijutsu is like saying martial art. Wing chun is taijutsu. That is just how the japanese classify it, the art of using the body. Yoga is taijutsu. There are systems that are called taijutsu directly but not all of them are trained unrealistic and ineffective, but with the bujinkan arts and its relatives yes they are trained very unrealistically but its for preserving the original movements of the systems involved not for making a modern day fighter. Its an antique so to speak, a history lesson.


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## mograph (May 15, 2011)

There are no shortcuts.

However ... people have been led to believe there are shortcuts because of the successes derived from beginner's luck, where an un-self-conscious practitioner stumbles on the correct method the first time. The trouble is, it's difficult to replicate that mindset in the short term, especially under stress, and when one becomes self-conscious. However, with practice and time, I think it _can_ be replicated, but from a position of wisdom and seasoning. And you'd have technique as well, given enough time, guidance and proper practice.

As for chi, I believe that the Chinese reflected on whatever stuff seems to keep us alive, and they gave it a name. I also believe that it makes sense to describe it in terms of quality and quantity, as we've all felt high-energy, low-energy, but also calm or nervous. But anyone that says that you can use all chi and no technique is selling something. In fact, the combination is important: I think that if you have a lot of energy (and stamina) but are calm, and if you have technique, you'll prevail. 

Oh, one more thing: I don't think that just doing forms lead to results. Intention, internal sensitivity and adherence to principles inform the forms, as it were. Without those, the forms are empty, and just choreography.

Although Wing Chun doesn't seem to suffer from flowery fists or embroidery kicks.


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## Domino (May 18, 2011)

When you open palm for tan sau, concentrate on elbow energy moving foward and then wrist energy in huen sau at the top, then tense your arm to withdraw back to you nice and slowly, relax and go into fook sau and remember, its not a race.

http://www.kwokwingchun.co.uk/forms-applications/sil-lim-tau


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