# Questions on Stephen Hayes



## Bester (Nov 12, 2004)

1- How old is he?

  2- What arts did he study?
  2A - How long did he study each art?
  2B - What ranks did he reach in those arts?
  2C - Who did he study under or with?

  3- How old was he when he founded his To Shin Do?

  4- What is the difference between [font=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif]To Shin Do and Ninjitsu?[/font]


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## gmunoz (Nov 12, 2004)

There have been too numorous threads about An-Shu Stephen K. Hayes on MT lately to have to start another.  An easy search function can help answer your concerns.


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## Bester (Nov 12, 2004)

I did not find the information I asked for elsewhere, which is why I asked. At least your reply was more friendly than this forums assigned moderator when I asked about Tew.

I also went to the website, but did not find my answers there.


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## gmunoz (Nov 12, 2004)

Bester, I would recommend you take great care on how your respond to and about mods.  MT administrators are pretty strict about that.


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## Bester (Nov 12, 2004)

I could take that as a threat, but I'll put it as "Friendly Advice". My point was, your reply which said the same as his, was despite any differences between us, more politely worded.

Now, with that stated, I do have to ask.
Were my questions somehow invalid? Unjust? Wrong?

The information I asked about (despite my failing to correct 1 misspelling) is valid background information about an individual, who is a leader in the arts. Yes, I can find some of it in books, other websites, or after reading a few hundred posts here. I don't wish to wade through the misinformation and misinterpretations.  Just the facts.

Facts that I was not able to easily draw from numerous sources.


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## Satt (Nov 12, 2004)

Bester said:
			
		

> 1- How old is he? Born September 9, 1949 which would make him 55 this year.
> 
> 2- What arts did he study? Sandan in the Korean art of Tang Soo Do             (4 years) and Ninjutsu (So far 30 years)
> 2A - How long did he study each art?  (See above)
> ...


 (See link above)

Hey there Bester. I found this link. I hope it helps a little. It won't answer all your questions, but it might be interesting.  http://www.skhquest.com/articles/MasaakiHatsumi.aspx

Hope this helps.


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## Bester (Nov 12, 2004)

Thank you.


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## Bester (Nov 12, 2004)

I did a search for books and videos relating to him.  The results at Amazon were interesting to say the least. (I think their search is broken).

I found this: The Last Ninja - Bujinkan TaiKai USA DVD which while most likely belonging on the traditional side, may be of interest here as well.

It was interesting to see the number of books he's been involved in as well. (http://www.skhquest.com/shop/booklist.aspx) I have 3 of them, wasn't aware there were so many others though still in print.

(Have these: The Ninja and Their Secret Fighting Art, Ninjutsu: The Art of the Invisible Warrior, The Mystic Arts of the Ninja: Hypnotism, Invisibility, and Weaponry)

Time to head to check out Half.com.


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## Satt (Nov 12, 2004)

Glad I could help. :asian:


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## Limeydog (Nov 12, 2004)

Hey Bester,

Thanks for letting me know about half.com as I had never heard of it before (I know DUH???)

Time to go shopping

Later
Patrick

PS. I posted a reply to your questions but it ain't appeared...poop


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## Limeydog (Nov 12, 2004)

Found my post. It's in the Toshindo question...man my brain is fried today with a capitol Z...LOL

Thank God its Friday...make mine a cold Newcastle Brown Ale.

Patrick


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## Bester (Nov 12, 2004)

I know what you mean.  I normally only have time to pop in read a few then back to work.  It has been a very slow day that has let me spend alot more time on the forums than either me, or some folks here like.  Thankfully, it is quitting time, finally.


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## Limeydog (Nov 12, 2004)

FREEDOM!!!!!!!!!

William Wallace


I'm stuck at work til 10pm. Have a beer on me.

Patrick


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## Tgace (Nov 12, 2004)

Alright. Ive posed this question before and have looked through old threads but cant seem to get a straight answer.

What is the problem with SKH? Im not apractitioner, just an 80's ninja craze groupie who purchased all his books back then. I always thought he was "The Man" when it came to ninjutsu in the US. A couple of decades later hes "persona non grata". What happened? Now I read rumors that anybody who trains with him isnt welcome in the Bujinkan. I was under the impression the whole To-Shin Do thing was Hatsumi approved.

What gives?


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## cashwo (Nov 12, 2004)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Alright. Ive posed this question before and have looked through old threads but cant seem to get a straight answer.
> 
> What is the problem with SKH? Im not apractitioner, just an 80's ninja craze groupie who purchased all his books back then. I always thought he was "The Man" when it came to ninjutsu in the US. A couple of decades later hes "persona non grata". What happened? Now I read rumors that anybody who trains with him isnt welcome in the Bujinkan. I was under the impression the whole To-Shin Do thing was Hatsumi approved.
> 
> What gives?


I've been reading all these post wondering the same thing.


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## Bester (Nov 12, 2004)

The short answer is that Hatsumi has sort of "cut off" all those who haven't actively been training with him from awarding ranks and teaching Bujinkan arts.  There is a mention of a rift between the 2 men.  Hayes does still have his teaching credentials AFAIK though he only teaches the Bujinkan to a select group, teaching his ToShinDo to the masses.  It is marketed as a modernized and Americanized version of his Bujinkan training, however some say it is watered down.  Others insist it is excellent.

My limited understanding is that its similar to the differences between Parker and Tracy Kenpo, or the differences between JKD schools, etc. I'm probably wrong, but feel it's close enough "for goverment work".


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## Bester (Nov 12, 2004)

There was an old thread from the early days of MartialTalk in the Ninjutsu forum that had some detailed information on it.  I don't have the link handy, but if you go there and use the "Search this Forum" and put in "Hayes" it should turn up.  These guys seem to save everything.  Aint it great?


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## gmunoz (Nov 12, 2004)

Actually, Mr. Hayes is still teaching Bujinkan and extending rank diplomas through his Quest Center in Dayton Ohio.  One can even, upon request, train long distance using the To-Shin Do DVD curriculum and receive a Bujinkan diploma signed by Hatsumi.  Just wanted to clarify.

The rumors that Hatsumi and Hayes are estranged, are simply that, rumors that have for the most part originated from internet discussions.  Don't believe everything you hear and read.  An-Shu Hayes still goes to Japan every year or so with his family to train with Hatsumi.


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## Bester (Nov 12, 2004)

Ok, clarification needed:
You can train To-Shin Do, but earn Bujinkan rank?  That does not seem right, considering the differences mentioned between the 2.

Otherwise it is good to know he is keeping up with Hatsumi.


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## gmunoz (Nov 13, 2004)

Bester said:
			
		

> Ok, clarification needed:
> You can train To-Shin Do, but earn Bujinkan rank? That does not seem right, considering the differences mentioned between the 2.
> 
> Otherwise it is good to know he is keeping up with Hatsumi.


Yes.  That is correct.  Train To-Shin Do and earn a Buj rank.


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## Enson (Nov 13, 2004)

gmunoz said:
			
		

> Yes. That is correct. Train To-Shin Do and earn a Buj rank.


hasn't that been stated already?:idunno:


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## Seig (Nov 13, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> hasn't that been stated already?:idunno:


I didn't know the answer. I found it valuable. What I also have found to be very cool is that in the links some of the traditionalists have posted lately is that Hatsumi Sensei does not require a set curriculuum. My next question is this,"In To-Shin-Do" is there a set curriculuum?


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## RRouuselot (Nov 13, 2004)

gmunoz said:
			
		

> Bester, I would recommend you take great care on how your respond to and about mods.  MT administrators are pretty strict about that.



that's kind of a 2 way street.......
In the past there were several "Mods" on MT that got a little too snippy with some of the members and were relieved of duty..I would imagine Kaith wouldnt have a problem relieving more if it were deemed necessary.


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## gmunoz (Nov 13, 2004)

Seig said:
			
		

> I didn't know the answer. I found it valuable. What I also have found to be very cool is that in the links some of the traditionalists have posted lately is that Hatsumi Sensei does not require a set curriculuum. My next question is this,"In To-Shin-Do" is there a set curriculuum?


Yes, To-Shin Do does have a set curriculum.  I looked on RVD's courses and he, too, has a set curriculum that progresses the the Bujinkan Kyu's.  There is still a set curriculum, or structure rather, in both organizations that comprise the Kyu level one is working at.


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## Limeydog (Nov 13, 2004)

I believe that An Shu Hayes offers "Modern" and "Traditional" courses for the HSC. Hence a Toshindo rank and a Bujinkan rank. It all depends on what you want. In the Quest centers they offer Toshindo classes and the Shadow of Iga classes. I believe the latter to be Bujinkan...

For those of you interested I posted on the Rick Tew Question regarding background of instructors. Lets keep the posts honest, yet friendly as we seem to be going in the same direction as all other forums.

Peace to all
Patrick


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## Limeydog (Nov 13, 2004)

Hi Seig,

Yes there is a set curricullum in Toshindo, much like American Kenpo (self defense techniques, but they are called Kata). I come from an American Kenpo background (Bryan Hawkins-United Kenpo Systems) and like things to be organized. When I first heard of ninjutsu I thought it was very "fly by night" but once I looked into it I found that it was very structured.

Hope this helps


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## Bester (Nov 13, 2004)

There is a number of articles on Hayes website concerning his teachings:

One good article is:
Ancient vs. Modern Ninja Training
http://www.skhquest.com/articles/ancientmodernninjutsu.aspx

More at http://www.skhquest.com/articles/default.aspx


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## heretic888 (Nov 13, 2004)

Bester said:
			
		

> I did a search for books and videos relating to him.  The results at Amazon were interesting to say the least. (I think their search is broken).
> 
> I found this: The Last Ninja - Bujinkan TaiKai USA DVD which while most likely belonging on the traditional side, may be of interest here as well.
> 
> ...



It should be remembered, Bester, that Hayes has subsequently redacted many of his earlier claims --- especially in regards to "ninja history". His later works (such as _Ninja Vol. 5: Lore of the Shinobi Warrior_) reflect this.


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## Bester (Nov 13, 2004)

So noted.  I'll be updating my reference library next month.  I've added the missing books to the "wish list".


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## gmunoz (Nov 14, 2004)

Speaking of Hayes' books.  I assume those training in To-Shin Do have or are reading Enlightened Self Protection by An-Shu Hayes.  How did you enjoy it and what are your thoughts?


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## Satt (Nov 14, 2004)

gmunoz said:
			
		

> Speaking of Hayes' books. I assume those training in To-Shin Do have or are reading Enlightened Self Protection by An-Shu Hayes. How did you enjoy it and what are your thoughts?


I really enjoyed it. It was very interesting. SKH must have a good artist/video crew working for him. I just need to start memorizing the action codes and stuff.


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## Limeydog (Nov 14, 2004)

Still waiting for my order to arrive, but will let you know as soon as I have read it. Man oh man it's like waiting for Christmas and your first born all rolled together. Looking forward to spending some quality mat time with you guys (Jason and Gabriel).


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## gmunoz (Nov 14, 2004)

Pat, so what are you using to train right now if you haven't received your material?  I too, am looking so forward to meeting you both in person and gettin' knocked around in training...


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## Satt (Nov 14, 2004)

gmunoz said:
			
		

> Pat, so what are you using to train right now if you haven't received your material? I too, am looking so forward to meeting you both in person and gettin' knocked around in training...


We are SO gonna kick each other's butts!!! LOL. Yeah, I can't wait. I just hope I can get the money for it soon. I am getting ready to start taping my Earth element test really soon. I have to beg my wife to let me spend the $45 testing fee. (Yes, I am whipped.) I love her though.


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## Limeydog (Nov 14, 2004)

Hi Guys,

Whilst I am waiting for my material I am practice mainly my basics (Kihon and Sanshin no Kata) I was lucky enought to have started Budo Taijutsu a while ago and am using my lesson notes to keep me going. I also the Togakure Kihon DVD from An Shu Hayes. I am trying to build as good a foundation as I can with what I have. I also have found a Bujinkan class nearby that Dan Weidman kindly told me/invited me to on a Tuesday night...

I also like to keep myself busy with the other systems I study. I try to look at them from a Taijutsu perspective.

How long did it take you guys to get your DVD's once you had ordered them? It's been just over a week for me. My Togakure DVD got here within 6 days of ordering it.


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## te_greening (Nov 19, 2004)

at a relatively recent (around june) seminar in sydney a high ranking instructor put out a message to all present that if bujinkan students trained with stephen hayes (who was actually one of four instructors (black-)listed) then they were not welcome to train with the bujinkan. this message was apparently directly from hatsumi.


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## Satt (Nov 19, 2004)

Oh well. I still enjoy SKH's teaching. In the end you just have to do what is right for YOU. Just because you mentioned it, here is a little note off his website...

"I am sure you have read some disconcerting stuff on the internet from critics of my program. Please remember that the most severe critics have never actually visited my school to see what I am doing. The way I up-graded the old curriculum when I started my school really frightened and shocked a lot of old friends and students, but I had to change if I wanted to offer the best possible self-protection training to my community. And of course it is true that shocked and frightened people tend to over-react in defensiveness. All kinds of absurd things started to fly around the internet  I had watered down the training, I was running a belt factory, I was only in it for the money, and other silly things that scared people came up with to protect the beliefs that make them feel special. Well, my new curriculum is not watered down, it is more demanding and more relevant, but it did scare a lot of old Bujinkan people, and frightened people do tend to over-react"

Also go to this link for info on SKH and Hatsumi... 

http://www.skhquest.com/articles/MasaakiHatsumi.aspx

...Just so you know his thoughts on it a little. I don't see why you wouldn't be allowed to just sample both though you know. That way you could really make up your OWN mind. Hope this helps.


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## te_greening (Dec 2, 2004)

i've read some of stephen hayes stuff mainly when i first started to get intrested in ninjitsu, which is also when there wasn't much to read about ninjitsu. i wouldn't bother with it now.

i also agree that you should do whatever art you enjoy doing. 

i do think it's a bit of a problem that it is only during relatively recent times that these teachers have been actually acknowledging that they are no longer affiliated with bujinkan. 

it seems that stephen hayes has been developing his own brand of ninjitsu for some time, but was unwilling to actually state this. implying that it is a slight variation on bujinkan. 

there is a similar situation in australia with wayne roy who was one of the first acknowledged guys from here to train (however briefly) in japan. he is no longer affiliated with bujinkan (to the best of my knowledge), but until quite recently his instructors were keeping quiet about the fact that roy's ninjitsu had no ties with japan. 
i'm not sure whether they were uncertain themselves, whether the break was genuinely recent, or whether they were unwilling to acknowledge that they had no ties to japan. roy's style is his own concoction. he himself says that his style is his own interpretation of his experience in ninjitsu training, plus some other bits. it's a bit of this, bit of that, all thrown in together. i know cos i did it for a while, until i went and found a real school. 

from what you are saying it seems like the stephen hayes situation is pretty similar.

i think that these instructors in general should just come out and say that they are a new style, which is not linked to the traditional styles in japan (where appropriate), so the students can decide for themselves whether they want to be associated with what is essentially a made up martial art. 

from what i've seen the new schools take precious little from the old schools any way so why would they want to be associated, except for maybe commercial reasons.

call it 'modern street fighting', 'street effective combat arts' whatever, but if it's not genuinely based on ninjitsu technique then don't imply that it is.

now down off the soapbox...


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## Enson (Dec 3, 2004)

first... a high ranking buj member using the word "ninjItsu"... awesome!

second the truth of the matter is, probably... no one would even know about ninjutsu if it wasn't for hayes. i don't care where it came from. he is the one who was the source for all the info one could want on ninjutsu and apperantly continues to be the source of info on ninjutsu history.

go hayes!artyon:


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## Bob Hubbard (Dec 3, 2004)

te_greening said:
			
		

> it seems that stephen hayes has been developing his own brand of ninjitsu for some time, but was unwilling to actually state this. implying that it is a slight variation on bujinkan.


 You could state this, but my thinking is that SKH's stuff is less his own original creation, but a reorganization, and modification to his Buj. training done to fit the cultural differences of an American audience. The core of everything is based on his years in the Buj,



> there is a similar situation in australia with wayne roy who was one of the first acknowledged guys from here to train (however briefly) in japan. he is no longer affiliated with bujinkan (to the best of my knowledge), but until quite recently his instructors were keeping quiet about the fact that roy's ninjitsu had no ties with japan.


 The difference here is that Hayes was an active student for I believe a decade of Dr. Hatsumi, not just a part-time dabbler who did a few seminars.



> i'm not sure whether they were uncertain themselves, whether the break was genuinely recent, or whether they were unwilling to acknowledge that they had no ties to japan. roy's style is his own concoction. he himself says that his style is his own interpretation of his experience in ninjitsu training, plus some other bits. it's a bit of this, bit of that, all thrown in together. i know cos i did it for a while, until i went and found a real school.
> 
> from what you are saying it seems like the stephen hayes situation is pretty similar.


 Many differences.



> i think that these instructors in general should just come out and say that they are a new style, which is not linked to the traditional styles in japan (where appropriate), so the students can decide for themselves whether they want to be associated with what is essentially a made up martial art.


 I agree.  Why hide your art behind marketing hype and mysticism?



> from what i've seen the new schools take precious little from the old schools any way so why would they want to be associated, except for maybe commercial reasons.
> 
> call it 'modern street fighting', 'street effective combat arts' whatever, but if it's not genuinely based on ninjitsu technique then don't imply that it is.
> 
> now down off the soapbox...


 A number of questionable individuals call their arts/styles/etc "Ninjitsu", without knowing or caring about the real meaning or even having any real Ninjutsu in them.  Mr. Hayes has legit, long-term real ninjutsu training, but to my knowledge has not marketed his ToShinDo as ninjustsu. He does however have a traditional program available.


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## Kreth (Dec 3, 2004)

te_greening said:
			
		

> there is a similar situation in australia with wayne roy who was one of the first acknowledged guys from here to train (however briefly) in japan. he is no longer affiliated with bujinkan (to the best of my knowledge), but until quite recently his instructors were keeping quiet about the fact that roy's ninjitsu had no ties with japan.


The situation is a bit different. Wayne Roy basically wrote a letter to Hatsumi sensei demanding his judan, even though he hadn't been to Japan in years. When he didn't get it, he quit. 

Jeff


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## Bob Hubbard (Dec 3, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> first... a high ranking buj member using the word "ninjItsu"... awesome!


 I did this too until I learned the right spelling. 



> second the truth of the matter is, probably... no one would even know about ninjutsu if it wasn't for hayes. i don't care where it came from. he is the one who was the source for all the info one could want on ninjutsu and apperantly continues to be the source of info on ninjutsu history.
> 
> go hayes!artyon:


 I learned Holliwood ninja stuff from Sho Kashugi, but got more 'real' information from Hayes books.

 I've seen alot of different folks arts/techniques.  While I haven't met either Mr. Hayes or Dr. Hatsumi in person, both on video have the 'movements' that I would associate with real combat artists.  Knowing of Hayes long relationship with Hatsumi, I've no doubt that he's got a solid foundation under him.  His continued work as an ambasador of the arts continues to educate the American public on what the ninja were really.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Dec 3, 2004)

Enson, how do you know this person's rank? Have I missed something? And has anyone ever heard of two gentlemen known as Bo Munthe and Doron Navon?


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## Limeydog (Dec 3, 2004)

Bo Munthe teaches in Sweden I think???
But Doran Navon now teaches the Faldenkrais methods and has turned his back on Budo Taijutsu. Mr Navon was the highest graded westerner...I believe, whether he was the first I couldn't say.


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## Shogun (Dec 3, 2004)

> The difference here is that Hayes was an active student for I believe a decade of Dr. Hatsumi, not just a part-time dabbler who did a few seminars.


Very active. Hayes trained pretty much every day (even rainy ones  )for about 15 years. then, after he came back to america, he still traveled to Japan Very regularly.


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## Jay Bell (Dec 3, 2004)

Shogun?  15 years in Japan??


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## Enson (Dec 3, 2004)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> Enson, how do you know this person's rank? Have I missed something? And has anyone ever heard of two gentlemen known as Bo Munthe and Doron Navon?


i just thought all the guys on here were high ranking buj members... if not by rank at least by character! except for you technopunk! hee hee hee! :rofl: (j/k )


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## MrFunnieman (Dec 3, 2004)

Limeydog said:
			
		

> Bo Munthe teaches in Sweden I think???
> But Doran Navon now teaches the Faldenkrais methods and has turned his back on Budo Taijutsu. Mr Navon was the highest graded westerner...I believe, whether he was the first I couldn't say.



The story I heard was Navon was the last person to be tested for godan with a live blade.  Please note the use of the word "story".  I feel pretty confident in saying that Hayes was not the first Westerner to receive the training.  With out any cold, hard, fact/ literature I think he is a strong candidate for the first American to receive the training.

Speaking of Feldenkrais, what do you guys know/ think about the method?
I am researching an Aikido school in Columbus, OH and the instructor is a godan in Aikido, shodan in karate, and is trained in the Feldenkrais Method.  It looks like a cool place to train, but I am not familiar with the Feldenkrais Method.

Thanks,

MrFunnieman


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## r erman (Dec 3, 2004)

> I think he is a strong candidate for the first American to receive the training.



I think Terry Dobson is actually that candidate.

Shogun, I don't think Hayes spent fifteen years in Japan.  By his own account he went in the mid-seventies.  I think he was back in the US for a while in '80 and then maybe went back until '81 or '82...?


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Dec 4, 2004)

Limeydog said:
			
		

> Bo Munthe teaches in Sweden I think???
> But Doran Navon now teaches the Faldenkrais methods and has turned his back on Budo Taijutsu. Mr Navon was the highest graded westerner...I believe, whether he was the first I couldn't say.


Bo Munthe doesn't teach at all anymore. Doron's reason for not doing so has only to do with his injuries sustained from judo practice.


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## Limeydog (Dec 4, 2004)

Bo Munthe not teaching anymore. What a shame he was/is very talented as is Mr Navon.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Dec 4, 2004)

Some might say otherwise, though I've never met him myself.


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## Limeydog (Dec 4, 2004)

Never really met him, just heard people at the dojo talk about him and Mr Navon. I trained under Shihan Bill Atkins of the TenChiJin dojo. Now there is a gentleman warrior. Words could not express how grateful I am to himshowing me true Taijutsu.


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## Bester (Dec 5, 2004)

I heard somewhere that Hayes married Dr. Hatsumi's daughter.  Is that true?


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## Jay Bell (Dec 5, 2004)

No.  Hatsumi sensei has no children.


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## te_greening (Dec 5, 2004)

> "I did this too until I learned the right spelling.


...if you're refering to me, i'm use the word as a generality anyway, and frankly you knew what i meant, and if good spelling is that important to you, yuo wlii realyl haet thsi, and i do bujinkan anyway. ha ha.



> I learned Holliwood ninja stuff from Sho Kashugi, but got more 'real' information from Hayes books.


i agree that hayes was influential in putting the info out there in the beginning, and will admit to still having a few of his books in my collection (but i tend to keep everything). my point was more about where he's gone since there, to which people have put in there opinions. fantastic. 



> I've no doubt that he's got a solid foundation under him. His continued work as an ambasador of the arts continues to educate the American public on what the ninja were really.


fair enough.

...and i also acknowledge that there are differences between hayes and roy.


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