# Kamatuuran Kali



## MJS (Feb 1, 2007)

One of our members here, tuturuhan, trains in this art.  I however, have never heard of this art of Kali before, although I have viewed some of the Youtube clips that he has posted.  

Mr. Arriola, would you be so kind as to explain some of the history of your art, where it is derived from, what the training consists of and the weapons used?

Thanks and I look forward to hearing from you.

Mike


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## tuturuhan (Feb 1, 2007)

Mike,

You are quite respectful and I appreciate your questions.

This is from an excerpt:

Brothers,

My teacher's teacher had only one real objective.  He wanted to be the best of the best...

He studied, many different styles.  Among them Italiano, Francais, Americano.  If we study history we can readilly see that Pilipinos aborbed many different styles and methods through the milenia. Certainly, prior to the europeans, Pilipino warriors did not use the espara y daga.  They absorbed it from the europeans.  Hmmm...is it possible that FMA is actually a white man's martial art.

The other day, I told one of my most loyal students, Gura Michelle Bautista the following;  if you want to get even better, you must stop being Pilipino...

My teacher never saw himself as simply being Pilipino.  He saw himself as Indonesian/malay, as Hawaiian, and as an American.  I asked him, do you close your eyes to the styles and methods of other martial artists.  His answer paraphrased, "it would be foolish not to absorb.  That would be like denying the advances in technology".  As such, it's not enough to learn the technique, it's not enough to practice the techique.  You must choose to hone it...till you uncover a greater truth.  "Be like water my friend...be like water".  Hmmm...did I still that?  Damn right.

Please view knife:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjhTianSJfI&mode=related&search=

Please view baston:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tP_KEqcLGf8&mode=related&search=


Tuhan Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
Grandmaster Kamatuuran School of Kamatuuran Kali


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## MJS (Feb 1, 2007)

Thanks for the reply.  A few other questions.  You mention a teacher, but not a name.  Just curious who you learned this art from.  Also, is it primarily a weapon based art or is there an empty hand aspect to it as well?

Thanks again,

Mike


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## MJS (Feb 1, 2007)

When I clicked on the clips that you posted, I saw a few others that were also linked.  I did see the 2 empty hand clips that were posted.  Looks interesting.


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## tuturuhan (Feb 1, 2007)

Mr. Mike,

I've had many teachers, some you have heard of mosty you have not heard of.  Ben Largusa was perhaps, one of the few true masters I learned from.

My style, though has gone beyond being Pilipino.  To get better, to reach mastery you must go beyond what you have learned.  You must go through new doors, hone your skills and see things that others do not.

please view "cavity strikes and pressure points-a seminar in Rome, Italy":  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-YM5iinV6E&mode=related&search=

Tuhan Joseph T. Oliva Arriola


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## MJS (Feb 1, 2007)

tuturuhan said:


> Mr. Mike,
> 
> I've had many teachers, some you have heard of mosty you have not heard of. Ben Largusa was perhaps, one of the few true masters I learned from.


 
Would you be so kind as to tell me a bit more about Ben Largusa as well as some of the other teachers?



> My style, though has gone beyond being Pilipino. To get better, to reach mastery you must go beyond what you have learned. You must go through new doors, hone your skills and see things that others do not.


 
What other arts are added into yours?  I'm interested in hearing more of what makes up your style.


Mike


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## Ceicei (Feb 1, 2007)

Which styles are incorporated into yours?  What is your instructor's primary training style?


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## tuturuhan (Feb 2, 2007)

Ceicei and Mike,

Well, it is not a matter of incorporation of styles.  What I do is not mixed martial arts.  Now, In quoting my old teacher, Ben Largusa "we are like a wheel with spokes radiating from the center".

In other words, you can take one movement and from it generate concepts and physical extentions.  Ceicei, I assume from your picture you are a tkd practitioner.  Many years ago I held black belts in tkd.

To give you an example...take a tkd front kick. It can be done in place.  It can be done going backward, sliding forward, jumping forward, sliding backward, sliding to the side etc etc.  But, it is essentially a front kick.  These are extensions of the same technique using concepts.

So, lets say I teach a wrist/joint lock.  That same technique can be done as a strike to the wrist or a throw from the wrist.  If I use, the geometric circle those same technques become infinite in terms of the following variables: pressure, strength, speed variation and angle.  In other words, the same motion can be used as lock, strike and throw. 

In this way, we are truly like water.  We can become any style or method...while maintaining our core concepts and values.

(btw please tell me if I am breaking rules or insulting people.)

However, what makes my personal style unique is the female/internal methods that I have chosen to "uncover" as I have gotten older.  Yes, 25 years ago at 25 I started my study of the internal methods. So, yes, you may see chinese internal methods that have radiated from my kali center.

You see, when I was 25 I had to confront my fears.  My younger, bigger and stronger students were beginning to surpass me.  I had a choice, pretend/lie to myself that now I was a teacher will hidden skills that I would expose only at the right time...or find a better way of fighting.

As such Mike to answer your questions...I was taken by my "brother"  Wilson Ng, a true gung fu master to a woman who would teach us both the rudiments of tai chi chuan.  As I progressed I noticed that my "hard style" had become harder, faster and stronger.  I could now "compare and contrast".  In other words, I could now know to gauge the depths of sadness by knowing the heights of happiness.  At around the same time, I was taken by friends to study from one of the two top lieutenants of Ben Largusa.

I had met Ben and Remy Presas, founder of Modern Arnis, many year earlier in 1974.  Back then..FMA was in its infancy.  You couldn't find a school that taught sticks (And interestingly, FMA was almost completely wiped out in the Phillippines...in fact most residents had never heard of kali, escrima or arnis)  As such, the real truth is not what most people would like to hear.

To make a long story shorter, as my body as aged...I have realized that I must beat my opponents not by competing with them...but, by using internal/female energy instead of brute/male strength.  When I had a heart attack several years ago...the cast was die.  I now had no choice but, to dedicate myself to the "female knife" chi flow, cavity strikes, pressure points and the gim (chinese sword). So, can I still beat all comers...regardless of youth...yes. 

More so..., in this post, I tell my student that she has to stop being "pilipino" in order to get better.  Why?  Well, When you fall in love with a style, technique, or cultural more, you close yourself off seeing "truth" in the myriad of ways that it exists.  This is another telltale sign of mastery.  

Ceicei I would love to talk to you more about the more esoteric...the sixth sense.  It would open up an even greater can of worms.  But, you can email me privately...as can you Mike.

Now, can you guys tell me more about yourselfs.  If you don't mind my inquiry?

Tuhan Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
Grandmaster Kamatuuran School of Kalijin


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## Cruentus (Feb 2, 2007)

Very nice post, Tuhon. More like these, and I might apologize for being so harsh in an earlier thread.


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## tuturuhan (Feb 2, 2007)

thank you...


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## Ceicei (Feb 2, 2007)

Cruentus said:


> Very nice post, Tuhon. More like these, and I might apologize for being so harsh in an earlier thread.


tuturuhan,
Yes, I agree with Creuntus, you did make a very good post!  I really did enjoy what you wrote.  This differ somewhat from the other posts you've made in different threads.  At least here, we can have a point of reference to discuss.



tuturuhan said:


> Ceicei and Mike,
> 
> Well, it is not a matter of incorporation of styles.  What I do is not mixed martial arts.  Now, In quoting my old teacher, Ben Largusa "we are like a wheel with spokes radiating from the center".
> 
> ...



As to your question about my training, no, I am not a TKD student.  I study American Kenpo and Danzan Ryu Jujitsu.  I started my martial arts training nearly 21 years ago.  However, one of my most influential instructors did study TKD, so his background does influence the way he taught me.

I think I understand what you're saying.  I had to start over with my training several times, and it is during those times I sometimes feel frustrated that I do not perform as well as I had when I was younger.  Yet as years go by, I realized there were more to martial arts than just simply the ability to move like the young students do.  I learned also that the mind, attitude, and the will all work together along with the physical component.  There is also a spiritual aspect, if one wishes to delve into that (which is not necessarily the same as religion).  The things we learn with martial arts cross over into different facets of our lives.  To confine the martial learning to only one part or two of the way we live is missing the potential that could be there.  I suppose this is part of the growing process.  We tend to focus on the first two obvious facets, the physical and the mental, before exploring further what else could be learned.  The exploration (or lack thereof) also is dependent upon the goals of their martial art journey.

Kenpo is both a theory and a science.  Like you say, one movement alone can lead to several possibilities, and in different dimensions.  This is what we in American Kenpo call a Universal Pattern.

We can delve into the sixth sense, the esoteric, and discuss this here.  I am sure there are some others who would express an interest and share their thoughts.

Let's open the can of worms further and examine each worm.  Not one is alike and they're all worthy of being under a microscope.

- Ceicei


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## MJS (Feb 2, 2007)

tuturuhan said:


> Ceicei and Mike,
> 
> Well, it is not a matter of incorporation of styles. What I do is not mixed martial arts. Now, In quoting my old teacher, Ben Largusa "we are like a wheel with spokes radiating from the center".
> 
> ...


 
Thanks for your reply. 



> Now, can you guys tell me more about yourselfs. If you don't mind my inquiry?


 
Sure.  I began training when I was 12 yrs. old.  I'm 33 at this time.  I originally began training in Kempo in the Villari organization.  I reached Brown Belt before my instructor switched to the Parker system of Kenpo.  I recently made the switch to Tracy Kenpo.  I'm currently a 3rd degree Black Belt.  

I also cross train in BJJ and Modern Arnis.  I've been grappling for a while, although I'm not actively testing for any rank.  I've been doing Arnis now for roughly 10yrs.  I'm part of the IMAF Inc.  Im currently ranked Likah Tatlo or 3rd brown.  

I enjoy training very much.  I'm not a belt chaser, as I'm more interested in learning, training and even teaching from time to time.  

I hope this answered your question. 

Mike


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## tuturuhan (Feb 2, 2007)

Sensei Ceicei,

Thank you for telling me a bit about yourself.  I too studied Kenpo as a young boy many years ago, with Sensei Lee, from the Parker linage.  I think we would probably find alignment in our joint practice of the joint and pressure points...given your danzan ryu background.  I would love to practice with you.

The reason that I did not first post in this area "FMA" is because I did not want to be relegated to a box.  When one states he is a democrat or republican, white or green, people immediately make assumptions.  Nonetheless, I was relegated to his posting area: FMA. Though, I am now grateful to Mike for putting someplace where I could slip the punches and kicks.  Thank you again Mike.  It is nice here.

Ceicei, I too made assumptions based on your picture...though in my mind, I did think you well a kenpo stylist.  Unfortunately, people make gross assumptions about me based on the word "kali".  They assume that my style is simply "pilipino sticks".  Even though, throughout I have tried to establish that i am an "internal" martial artist.  Because people are not familiar with what I do, they have no "context", there are no "markings" to describe what they are hearing about in the writing.  

Did you read one of my other posts about Ed Parker, Bruce Lee and Ben Largusa.  I ask you this question to give you a bit more history about my linage so you can better judge if my opinions have validity.  

If we were analyzing the "structure" of each of the above listed persons we would see interesting and far reaching connections.  Ed Parker in his last article for Black Belt magazine talks about the two men he invited to his 1964 International tournament, "who impressed all the black belts".  

I like retelling these stories (I have done so for Black Belt Magazine, Inside Kung Fu Magazine and various other publications), because few of the 8 million current martial artist students are aware of how the history of martial arts like the myriad of philosphies...affects the current martial technique...by coloring concept and theory.  FIRST ANGLE OF THE TRIANGLE:  THEORY AND CONCEPT

But, don't get me wrong.  A warrior must stand on his or her own two feet.  The badges, the deeds of our teachers belong to them and not to us.  We must prove our own skills.  So, the bottom line...are my stories true?  It doesn't matter...when I am in my own individual combat (e.g. dark alley, death of a child, loss of a job etc), the fight rests only on my shoulders.  The  SECOND ANGLE OF THE TRIANGLE: Your own skill in fighting should speak for itself.  

I provided links to the 19 clips on Kamatuuran Kali to evidence my skill.  They range from "push hands with chin na, walking the circle, 3 sectional staff, "no-inch" distance cavity strikes.  As such, it is not my stories...it is my skill as a 50 year old man who can still best anyone who walks through my doors.  Do I value someday meeting a teacher better than me...yes...I used to travel miles and miles to look for the best of the best.  

As such, we talk about the THREE ANGLES OF THE TRIANGLE:  1) physical technique 2) theory and concept 3) spiritual and esoteric.  If any part of the triangle is weak the whole triangle falls apart.  The practitioner is far from mastery.

So as to the THIRD ANGLE OF THE TRIANGLE:  Spirituality/Esoteric.  Well, in my post about "Meeting a True Master on a Train to Paris",  I was attempting to communicate the "spirituality/estoteric knowledge" you have questioned me about.  As you can see...it opened a can of worms.  Many will simply not believe.  

I want to discuss with you the esoteric.  This topic is of ultimate importance to me.  It affects our view of life.  Suffice to say, everytime, I take a trip...I expect the "higher power" to send me a message.  Things happened to me on this last trip to Rome, Barcelona, Tunis, Malta, Scicily, London and Rome.  The messges were a confirmation of my skills and abilities.  

Yet, as a fighter...It wouldn't be prudent to continue making myself a target. I don't mean to entice.  But, as the sufis say "a rose blooms slowly".  Perhaps, if you share your experiences we can have a better discussion. Otherwise, I will abide by the rules of this message board and keep my posting to technique.

Thank you again for engaging...I love the energy. (Oh gosh...I should rewrite...but I'm a bit lazy today...so bare with me.

Tuhan Joseph T. Oliva Arriola


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## tuturuhan (Feb 3, 2007)

Mike,

I just had a long conversation with two of my students.  They are schooling me on the do's and don'ts of the message boards.  I now understand, that the first mistake I made was not to "introduce" myself in the introductions section.

I did read the rules, but obviously, the interpretation is a matter of familiarly with "internet cultural ettiquette.  For instance, I don't even know how to take a particular quote so that I can put it into a message reply,

Also, I did not know that I was supposed to individually answer each person.  Ahhh...I still have much to learn.  Thank you.

Tuhan Joseph T. Oliva Arriola


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## Kreth (Feb 3, 2007)

tuturuhan said:


> For instance, I don't even know how to take a particular quote so that I can put it into a message reply,


It has to do with the big button at the bottom right of each post that says Quote... :lol:


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## oosh (Feb 3, 2007)

Thanks for the information Tuhan, it is great to hear about your art.


"And interestingly, FMA was almost completely wiped out in the Phillippines"

This is the only point I have issue with, FMA wasn't nearly wiped out in PI, in fact the history of FMA in PI (during the 20th century) is rich with stories of the Manongs - The likes of Tatang, Islao Romo, GM Jose Mena, the Saavedra's, Anciong, the Canetes, the Tortals the list goes on and on. FMA was alive and kicking in PI and still is


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## tuturuhan (Feb 3, 2007)

Osh,

You write:
"This is the only point I have issue with, FMA wasn't nearly wiped out in PI, in fact the history of FMA in PI (during the 20th century) is rich with stories of the Manongs - The likes of Tatang, Islao Romo, GM Jose Mena, the Saavedra's, Anciong, the Canetes, the Tortals the list goes on and on. FMA was alive and kicking in PI and still is"


We have a point of contention.  So, I will attempt to evidence my original statement that FMA was virutally wiped out.

1)  "Long Ago Arnis was a dying Filipino marital art...(pg 9) "kali declined in popularity as early as 1596...and eventually basnned the practice of the art in 1764"  (pg 11) Modern Arnis by Remy Presas, 1974

A manong (elder) to you is different than a manong (elder) to me.  My point of reference is my father's generation that came to America in the 1920's and to my Grandfather who came to Hawaii in circa 1910.  

When I was growing up in the 1950's and 1960's most of the manongs were too old to practice what I knew then as escrima.  Though, at 14 I began to learn the "five strikes" from one of the younger manongs.

Trust me, back then...there was virtually no FMA.  You only had a handful of teachers.  Today, most young people take for granted that FMA has always been popular and fruitful.

My opinion...and I stress opinion is that: 1) the Europeans wiped out most the "ancient methods".  2)  next the Americans after the Pilipino-American War of 1896 (better known as the Spanish American War) continued to decimate any methods of combat to control the colony of the Phillippines 3)  that those early manongs who came to the US circa 1910 brought with them methods of fighting that took seed and spread back to the Phillippines.

This opinion is provocative and is based on 1) being there 2) oral history and 3) the little written history that exists.  In fact, people may write books about the subject, they may "tell stories".  But, the truth is that there is so little to go on.

Remy Presas in his book alludes to the fact that yesterday's FMA was dying.  Today there is a resurgence.  In the early 1990's, I too went to the Phillippines to look for the mother art.  Up and down the Phillipines most people I asked said "what's that?  I didn't know there existed a Pilipino martial art".

Yet, today, everybody claims a linage, a title and secret knowledge.  Though, I did find some schools that figured it out...lure the europeans...lure the americans...big bucks.  The result is that I have seen Filipinos who learned their FMA in the United states after years of karate...became masters of FMA...and then built temples in Cebu to lure the europeans and americans. 

So, (when I ask people do you want to hear the the truth...) and this truth goes for chinese, japanese, indian marital arts etc etc, is that everybody tells stories to make themselves look good...including me.  

Is this bad.  Heck no.  In tribal times, we sat around the campfire telling our stories of bravery.  Was their truth in that bravery...very certainly...Yes.  The world is certainly better or worse, depending on your opinion for the words "running amok, butterfly knife, yoyo, leatherneck, and 45 pistol"  

Best wishes my Brother
Tuhan Joseph T. Oliva Arriola


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## tuturuhan (Feb 3, 2007)

Kreth said:


> It has to do with the big button at the bottom right of each post that says Quote... :lol:



Jeff,

Thank you...I appreciate you helping me out.  

Tuhan Joseph


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## tuturuhan (Feb 3, 2007)

MJS said:


> Thanks for your reply.
> I enjoy training very much.  I'm not a belt chaser, as I'm more interested in learning, training and even teaching from time to time.
> 
> I hope this answered your question.
> ...



Mike,

Thank you for helping me.  Now, I feel good about being promoted to yellow belt.  I am learning the ways of the message board.  

Well, sounds like you have been training for a while.  I don't know much about the different styles of FMA any more.  The styles have grown in abundance in the last several years.  As for Parker Kenpo, I too have a linage from it.  My first karate teacher, Mr. Lee was decended from Parker's kenpo.

I tell students in San Francisco, that in the 1960's (with the exception of the underground gung fu schools) there were only two public schools: 1) Richard Kim's Okinawan at the YMCA and 2)  Ralph Castro's Kempo School.  I tell them in one way or another (with the exception of the TKD schools) they can all trace their roots back to those instructors.

I don't know much about Tracy...except that is the first to modernize the "management of martial arts schools".  In the late 1960's I used to watch Joe Lewis, fight and represent the Tracy system.

Anyway, thank you for your interest and generosity.

Tuhan Joseph


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## oosh (Feb 3, 2007)

Thankyou for the response Tuhan Joseph. My mistake I did not mean to imply that the art was as readily available as it is now, instead that it was alive in the sense that it was being practiced. Would your generation of Manong be that of Tatang's uncle, GM Melecio Ilustrisimo ?


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## tuturuhan (Feb 3, 2007)

Oosh,

No...I am speaking about the guys who came to Amercia in the 1910's and 1920's.  This was known as the "first great wave".  These guys would be over a 100 years old now.  These are the guys, who brought their oracion.  These are the guys who practiced anting anting.

They were of the generation of true warriors.  They came to American after fighting against Americans in the war of 1896.  Spiritual ritual, hallucinations, and magic amulets made their practice not an art form but a way of life.

Today, we take martial sport as the norm.  We go to class and then we then go to the movies or a football game.  These manongs/manangs ritualistically, prayed oracions and went into the mountains to talk to the agta... 

Tuhan Joseph


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## Epa (Feb 5, 2007)

Tuhan Joseph,

I think that the generation of Melecio Ilustrisimo (Antonio "Tatang" Ilustrisimo's uncle) would have been born in the late 1800s and were part of that immigration of Filipinos in the early 1900s. Tatang Ilustrisimo was born around 1900 by most of the sources I've seen. 

I think many of that generation did come to the United States and some of them kept the practices alive. Many of them continued the practices of oracion, such as Regino Ilustrisimo (Tatang's other uncle) who had one tatooed on his calf by his older brothers. John Lacoste taught many of the traditional prayers to his students as well. These two men came to the United States well before World War 2, I think Lacoste came into Hawaii in the 1920s. 

So I think that may be part of the generation that you are thinking of, though I don't know all of the exact dates for sure. Also, what is an agta? I've never heard the term before. 

Thank you, 
Eric


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## oosh (Feb 5, 2007)

Yes, Tatang was born in 1904, his father was Isidro and his uncles were Melecio, Regino and Agapito (though Agapito was not known to practice Eskrima). I am not sure of Isidro's birth date, I will try and find out something more concrete while I am in PI during the summer.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 5, 2007)

tuturuhan said:


> I tell students in San Francisco, that in the 1960's (with the exception of the underground gung fu schools) there were only two public schools: 1) Richard Kim's Okinawan at the YMCA and 2) Ralph Castro's Kempo School. I tell them in one way or another (with the exception of the TKD schools) they can all trace their roots back to those instructors.
> 
> Tuhan Joseph


 
Actually, if you look thru the old San Francisco Yellow Pages that are available in the Public Library starting at about 1960 onward, maybe even 1959 or so, you will see that there are already numerous schools listed, including Tracys kenpo.  I've actually gone to the library, pulled the dusty books down, and paged thru them.  The number of schools listed at that time grew steadily each year.  Prior to about 1959 or 1958 or so, there is nothing listed.  Sorry, I can't remember the exact dates.


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## tuturuhan (Feb 5, 2007)

Flying Crane said:


> Actually, if you look thru the old San Francisco Yellow Pages that are available in the Public Library starting at about 1960 onward, maybe even 1959 or so, you will see that there are already numerous schools listed, including Tracys kenpo.  I've actually gone to the library, pulled the dusty books down, and paged thru them.  The number of schools listed at that time grew steadily each year.  Prior to about 1959 or 1958 or so, there is nothing listed.  Sorry, I can't remember the exact dates.



Excellent!  I wish I would have thought of that...going to the telephone books.  Now, I would be interested in who the owners of those San francisco schools were.  Thank you...more facts in our arsenal.  Excellent!!!


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## Flying Crane (Feb 5, 2007)

tuturuhan said:


> Excellent! I wish I would have thought of that...going to the telephone books. Now, I would be interested in who the owners of those San francisco schools were. Thank you...more facts in our arsenal. Excellent!!!


 

Don't remember, I believe most of them are no longer in operation.  I do recall seeing Ralph Castro's, of course he moved down to Daly City.  Most of the others I didn't recognize their names.  I try to sort of pay attention to the schools here in the City, I just like to know who's around.  I didn't recognize too many other names as still being around today.


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