# Opinions on motion



## MartialArtsGuy (Mar 15, 2003)

Hey everyone

Lately i have been thinking back to every fight/situation i have ever been in, or seen. I am remembering how i felt at the time, what my body felt like, and what was going through my mind.

Im recalling the type of body motions i saw and the tactis used. I remember alot of sloppyness, grabbing, rushing, repetative punching with the same arm. (cock & punch over and over with speed), choking. I hope im getting across with my description.

Anyway my question envolves the way our body moves when we train versus motion during a "real situation" 

I seem to notice that the perfered type of motion during the execution of techniques tends to be explosive, fast, clean and crisp like movements. 

Well i have no question about explosiveness, and speed, but i have my reservatins about attempting to do techniques using a specific "style" of motion. (crisp + clean) I just wonder if some people who insist on training this way set up an urealistic training scenario. I think the best way to move is whatever the situation calls for. I notice that when i train techniques i have the luxury to move howeve because i know whats comming, but when i do spontenaity work, i move differently because i dont know whats coming. I feel much more sloppy than when i do techniques, but i still get the job done effectively, and efficiently. I guess my question is, i a real fight will we even have the choice to move the same way as when we pratice, and if we dont should we be trying to practice the techniques a certain way?

I hear alot of people talking about how so and so moves well during forms or when practicing techniques.  

Sorry bout the length, spellig and grammar, im in a hurry.


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## Mikey (Mar 15, 2003)

Ben,
first, let me say that I am not a BB in Kenpo, I've been studying it for about a year.  But the thing that you have to realize is that 
"pratice makes perfect" (bet you've heard that one before).
What I mean is that if you practice something, anything, a certain way, after a while it will become natural.  muscle memory is what I'm trying to say, I could not think of the words at first. 
What that is, is if you train your body to move a certain way when your brain sees a pertiular action coming, then you will react as you have trained.

Hope I made sense????

MD


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## Mikey (Mar 15, 2003)

I forgot, you have to also remember that there are alot of what ifs, what if they do this or that, and as you get into more techniques and flowing become more fluent (sp?) you will react when a tech does not go "right".

MD


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## D.Cobb (Mar 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mikey _
> *But the thing that you have to realize is that
> "pratice makes perfect" (bet you've heard that one before).*




Actually, PERFECT practice makes perfect. The reason we train the way we do is to try and create muscle memory, so that when we are under adrenal stress, in that sloppy situation, then hopefully our sloppiness won't be as bad as the other guys sloppiness.

If you want to give yourself a better chance of pulling the right stuff off, in a situation, then try to give as much time to one way of training as to the other.

Remember, for the stuff to work, it has to be a part of you.

--Dave

:asian:


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## pesilat (Mar 16, 2003)

I like the way one of my instructors explains it:



In a fight, your motor skills degrade. Your margin for error decreases. So, we train toward perfection to increase our margin for error and give us a better chance in a fight.

A certain technique, for example, has to be done at 80% of perfection to work. If you only train it to the point where you can consistently do it at 80%, then you get in a fight, your motor skills degrade by, say, 10%. Now you try to do that technique and it comes out at 70% and fails.

If you train to the point that you can consistently do it at 95% of perfection, then you've got a 15% margin for error. You get in a fight, your motor skills degrade by 10%, you do it at 85% and pull it off.

The close you consistently get to perfection in your training, the larger your margin of error becomes and the more likely you'll actually be able to pull off your material in a fight.




Mike


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## MartialArtsGuy (Mar 16, 2003)

I agree with the things everyone is saying. Training things into "muscle memory" does work well. That i agree with, especially after doing some research on the nervous system lately. I just wonder if the type of motion we are loading is the best type.

Ill explain more. For example, Im sure we have all heard, that this person moves well, or that person moves better than this person.
My point is that this type of thinking would lead one to believe that there is a certain standard to work forward to. I  notice this standard tends to be what i desribed before. (fast explosive, crisp, clean, fluid). 

What im saying is that because of my prior experience either being in real "fights" or witnessig them, combined with my experiences with spontenaety training, i would think that training toward a specific predetermined type of motion might not be the best idea.

Different body type move differently. In class i notice that two people will do the same technique, they will both get the job done perfectly, but they will look different while doing it. One may look a little cleaner or more crisp  in their movements while the other does not. Some may say that the one guy moves so much better than the other guy. Well is this even a real concern? They have both interalized the motions, they both execute the technique in an effective manner but differently. 

I hope im doing a good job getting across what i mean. I just think that a system tailored to the individual, should no contain a style of motion that is considered to be the more perfered type. Like said before, i tend to do my techniques fast, explosive, flowy, but slippery. I dont look sloppy. ok this is lon enough i hope i did a better job than expalining than last time. What do you all think?  
:asian:


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## pesilat (Mar 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Ben22 _
> *Different body type move differently. In class i notice that two people will do the same technique, they will both get the job done perfectly, but they will look different while doing it. One may look a little cleaner or more crisp  in their movements while the other does not. Some may say that the one guy moves so much better than the other guy. Well is this even a real concern? They have both interalized the motions, they both execute the technique in an effective manner but differently. *



This is completely true. To "move well" doesn't mean to "move just like the instructor/master/etc." The crispness and fluidity (not even speed or power because these are generated by crispness and fluidity) are universal. Their expression will vary from person to person.

Also, since everyone's different, some people will never move better than others (at least in a certain area). For instance, I'll never be as good a kicker as some of the guys I train with. Doesn't mean I can't kick or that my kicks are ineffective, but whem I kick, I don't move as well as others. But they may not move as well as I do when it comes to trap hands or locks. This is why people tend to have specialties. They may be well-rounded and able to do many things competently. But they tend to have specialties. Things they do exceedingly well for one reason or another.

No, it doesn't really matter that my friend Marcelo kicks better than I'll ever be able to. What matters is that when I kick, it's effective. But if someone were comparing our kicking methods, then, absolutely, they would say (accurately) that Marcelo moves better than I do when he kicks.

Does this have any real bearing on anything? Not really. It just means that if I want to improve my kicks, Marcelo is a person I could ask for pointers. On the flip side, if Marcelo were looking for stick work, for instance, he might ask me for pointers.

I'm not sure I addressed your question or not. If not, ask again and I'll try another answer 

Mike


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## MartialArtsGuy (Mar 17, 2003)

Pesilat
Thanks for responding. You did cover my question. I was just starting to wonder, because its seems like there is a perfered way to move in kenpo. 

I understand what you mean by individuals expression certain attributes differently. This gives me some hope.

Honostly, this topic bugged me because i was hoping there was not a trend in kenpo to move a certain way just because someone else looks good moving that way.

Linking that to my original post, i was concerned that someone with that kind of focus would not have the right mind set needed to deal with the motion of a real situation becaue they are only concerned with looking good.

Im suprised there is not more of a response to this thread. I figured more people with experience would contribute. Oh well though.  

If you can think of anything else, let me know, and others are encouraged to post too.  Thanks again  :asian:


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## Kirk (Mar 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Ben22 _
> *Im suprised there is not more of a response to this thread. I figured more people with experience would contribute.*



Those of us with little experience are reading and learning.


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## pesilat (Mar 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Ben22 _
> *
> Honostly, this topic bugged me because i was hoping there was not a trend in kenpo to move a certain way just because someone else looks good moving that way.*



Well, not being a Kenpo player, I don't know what kind of trends may or may not be developing in Kenpo 



> *Linking that to my original post, i was concerned that someone with that kind of focus would not have the right mind set needed to deal with the motion of a real situation becaue they are only concerned with looking good.*



There will _always_ be people more concerned with looking good than with functionality.

But, so what if other people are doing it? As long as you're not doing it, then you have nothing to worry about 

Mike


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## MartialArtsGuy (Mar 17, 2003)

Pesilat

Yeah i know your right, and im pretty focused on my development, but at the same time, i care about my system.
Its hard not to have an opinion about whats going on.

It would be nice to have a few kenpo seniors give their opinion

Oh well onward  :asian: 

Kirk

Id still be interested in your opinion.


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## pesilat (Mar 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Ben22 _
> *Pesilat
> 
> Yeah i know your right, and im pretty focused on my development, but at the same time, i care about my system.
> ...



Absolutely. And it's honorable and proper. Unfortunately, there's not a lot to be done about except to do the best you can and represent the art to the best of your ability. The only way to make any impact at all is to set a good example for others.

Mike


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## Kirk (Mar 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Ben22 _
> *Kirk
> 
> Id still be interested in your opinion.  *



Okay, just let it be known this isn't experience talking LOL

I was under the understanding that the techniques all required
specific, wrote moves, and that moving anyway outside of that
was left up to your own interpretation and customizing as you
saw fit, but NOT in the classroom.  I thought that by doing the
techniques "as written" was the foundation for allowing you to
move  in your own way.  If an instructor is altering them, so that
his/her students move like him/her, then they've broken from the
root, and doing a diservice to thier students.  If a student goes
home and practices to move like thier instructor, it could be 
damaging to them in a self defense situation, and really means
that they don't have a true understanding of the system.  A
problem then comes up when that student teaches what he
learned, which isn't EPAK.

Just my unexperienced opinion .. it might change after I learn
a thing or two.


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## Kenpodoc (Mar 17, 2003)

At this time there is no one base system of EPAK available.  Mr. Parker taught different people the techniques differently.  I believe this is the real strength of the system but it seems to drive others crazy.  Pick an instructor you like and respect and learn their base system.  Recognize that when you travel the base techniques will vary slightly and use those moments to evaluate and learn more about the system.

Personally I now know multiple base variants ie. Planas, Speakman, Wedlake, S. Kelly, Dye, Trejo, and love the variety and see it as a source of strength.

Ultimately, there is not one true root but a root system which gives strength to our various family trees.

One extra point.  be careful about changing the techniques too early. Ususlly when a technique feels wrong to me it turns out that I'm just not good at it yet.


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## D.Cobb (Mar 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *Okay, just let it be known this isn't experience talking LOL
> 
> I was under the understanding that the techniques all required
> ...




I think that the most important thing to remember when doing Kenpo, especially EPAK, is that the movements are unimportant. It is the principles and concepts that make Kenpo as powerful as it is.
Up until a few years ago I was a Kenpo practitioner, the system I now study is quite different to what I was used to. However one of our senior techniques is almost exactly the same as Grip of Death technique. I gotta tell you, Pressure Points are one thing, but when you add Directional Harmony, Marriage of Gravity, Positional Checks, and a heap of other goodies, IT'S A WHOLE NEW BALL GAME!

--Dave

:asian:


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## Michael Billings (Mar 19, 2003)

The longer you stay in Kenpo, the more variety you will see in Seniors, the "New Generation" Seniors, and advanced students.  Very few look the exactly the same.  I am not saying it is right or wrong ... it just is.  

A good instructor should be able to give you a strong basic foundation in the Art.  Then, as you progress, he/she can help Tailor your movement to those most suitable for you.  Don't get me wrong, this is not to the exclusion of all the Principles, Concepts, and Theories (PCTs) of American Kenpo, rather a Tailoring of timing, targets, angles of entry, incidence, etc.  

Bursts of relaxed, explosive motion are the goal, but you see a lot of Green through early Black doing FAST Kenpo, sometimes without the timing breaks necessary to optimally execute the technique or form.  I call it "snowballing" through a form or technique.  They start off ok, then it gets faster, faster and faster ... harder, and harder until complete (No Puns guys!)  

I think the heart of Kenpo movement is:
1. A thorough understanding of the base technique
2. The expected or possible reactions an opponent can have
3. The ability to utilize all the PCT's of EPAK
4.The ability to utilize the TENSION - RELAXATION paradigm as they find the timing breaks in any technique or form.

This is a mere scratching of the surface to me.  There is lots and lots more regarding proper movement, or the stereotyping of "Kenpo" movement as some perceive it.  

Practice a technique a thousand times slow, to do it once fast.  Then a thousand times fast to do it once in the street.

Oss,
-Michael
Kenpo-Texas.com


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by D.Cobb _
> *PERFECT practice makes perfect.-Dave:asian: *


Mr. Parker used to always say...... 
Practice does not make perfect but rather... "PRACTICE MAKES PERMANENT".

If you practice something badly or incorrect it makes for a great bad habit (try working on a neutral bow foot alignment with a Korean Stylist that is converting to Kenpo) and you'll understand the statement.

He would append it to say.... "Continual Practice with focus on principles and details makes for improvement", there is no perfect (in the true sense of the word).

When examination of training methods you will find several levels of learning... 1) introduction of material  2) coordination of said material thru repetition 3) ingraining of muscle memory 4) study of variables of sequence 5) conditioning with not only the body but with "live" opponents.

Train to learn, learn to forget, forget to become instinctive.

:asian:


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## D.Cobb (Mar 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *Mr. Parker used to always say......
> Practice does not make perfect but rather... "PRACTICE MAKES PERMANENT".
> 
> ...



I stand corrected. Sir I think I may have to repeat this analogy, at some time. Thank you.

--Dave

:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by D.Cobb _
> *I stand corrected. Sir I think I may have to repeat this analogy, at some time. Thank you. --Dave :asian:
> *



Repeat away!:boing2: 

:asian:


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## RCastillo (Mar 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *Repeat away!:boing2:
> 
> :asian: *



Were you talking about me?


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _*
> Were you talking about me?
> *



Don't be so vain.  Of course Not.  We hadn't started talking about bad examples yet.

:rofl:


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## RCastillo (Mar 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *Don't be so vain.  Of course Not.  We hadn't started talking about bad examples yet.
> 
> :rofl: *



Whew, good, I was worried.


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _*
> Whew, good, I was worried.
> *


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## sumdumguy (Apr 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Ben22 _
> *
> 
> Anyway my question envolves the way our body moves when we train versus motion during a "real situation"
> *


In my humble opinion, the body is only one third of the elements that you should be training. Mind body and spirit should be involved. For example: when I attack one of my students, and all though they know what's coming, they do NOT know how fast or at what intensity. If the attacker changes these things for you regularly, you will find yourself closer to a street scenario then previously. The other side to the coin is to completely relax and allow yourself to be suprised by the attack. This is not easy to do but I think it will help. And all though our motor skills do deteriorate to some degree, this too can be changed and or re-trained on a mental and physical level. Depending on what type of drills your teacher/instructor has you doing.
Hope it helps?:asian:


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## Kenpomachine (Apr 16, 2003)

Technique lines do nicely to work  under pressure.


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## Goldendragon7 (Apr 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpomachine _*
> Technique lines do nicely to work  under pressure.
> *


:asian:


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## Touch Of Death (May 14, 2003)

:soapbox: This question reminds me of the time when I went to the Las vegas camp. We we working with every ones black belts. Some had started only Two years back but others were seasoned. I was Faced with a second degree that wanted to start a hammering block(Sleeper) with his hands at his sides. He announced, as the instructor walked by that I should throw a real punch. Well I wasn't throwing real strikes because when you start with your hands at your side you are not ready, but he called me out right in front of (I think it was steve labounty) the instructor so I let him have it right in the chest. The point of my story is that you should have seen this poor guy try to complete "Sleeper" after I already hit him. It was funny and sad at the same time.    


 :asian: The moral of the story is that desisions need to be made just before they happen. You cant keep on trying a technique after its time has passed. You need to get into the now. All Techniques can be thwarted, negated, or just plain countered at any time no matter how hard you train that technique. When you get into a street fight you need to forget what sequence of moves you want to try and then go out and end that guy, If youve trained maybe you wont break your hand or trip over your own feet but then again maybe you will.


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