# Korean Language, English Spelling



## Windsinger (Jun 25, 2008)

I have been accused (on more than one occasion, and more than one forum) of being a bit of a Grammar Nazi. It stems from the fact that I am an avid reader, and, at one time, wanted to be an English teacher. Of course, I'm not perfect by any stretch of the imagination (I still have trouble with certain words, not matter _how_ many times I type them), and I do take into consideration ESL barriers. However, bad spelling and grammar irks the Living Bejezus out of me!

Not that I'm complaining about anyone here. So, I guess I should get to my point, right?

Okay, no more delays. I'll...

_*LOOK! BUTTERFLIES!*_

Sorry. Where was I? Oh, right...

One thing I do find fascinating is differences when foreign words are put into romanized text. For example:
Sabum Nym (the spelling I'm familiar with)
Sabum Nim
Sah Bum Nim
Those are just three examples off the top of my head.

Now, I don't have any problems with the different spellings, mainly because a) as long as I know the word to begin with, I get the meaning, and b) I'm not 100% certain what the proper spelling should be.

So, is there anyone else out there who finds this as interesting as I do, or am I just weird? :uhyeah:

(*Note:* If you find any spelling mistakes in my post... Um... Well... Oops? )


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## PEP-REP (Jun 25, 2008)

you will find all korean words spelled differently using english characters.. because of the sounds.. most people try to write them by the sound which is only way of doing it and there are more then one way to make a sound with letters.. LOL that is clear as mud  EH

like Ki hap or Ki hop lots of them spelled different ways..

Glenn


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## Windsinger (Jun 25, 2008)

PEP-REP said:


> like Ki hap or Ki hop lots of them spelled different ways..


Another perfect example. At our dojang, it's "kiop", and when I took my first aborted attempt at learning TKD, it was "kiyop".

I think part of it is that I took a Japanese course a few years ago, and romanized Japanese seems pretty standardized. "Sensei" is always spelled s-e-n-s-e-i, for example. I know exactly what you mean, though.

As an aside, this reminds me, somewhat, of a Royal Canadian Air Farce skit about the Keep Canada Uni-lingual Fund (KCUF). Their slogan: "We don't want no French spoked 'round here. We want for that our kids to speak just as good'a English as we done." :lfao:


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## Kacey (Jun 25, 2008)

PEP-REP said:


> you will find all korean words spelled differently using english characters.. because of the sounds.. most people try to write them by the sound which is only way of doing it and there are more then one way to make a sound with letters.. LOL that is clear as mud  EH
> 
> like Ki hap or Ki hop lots of them spelled different ways..
> 
> Glenn



I agree - there are sounds in English that do not exist in Korean, and thus native speakers of Korean (and other Asian languages) have difficulty saying them, and therefore spelling with them.  In addition, like other languages that use non-Latin alphabets, transliteration can be quite a problem.

If you want to learn more, I strongly suggest you find a copy of The Martial Artist's Guide to Korean Terms, Translation, and Han-Gul, by Master Richard L. Mitchell.  Sadly, this book is currently out of print - but you can sometimes find it on eBay.


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## terryl965 (Jun 25, 2008)

Kacey said:


> I agree - there are sounds in English that do not exist in Korean, and thus native speakers of Korean (and other Asian languages) have difficulty saying them, and therefore spelling with them. In addition, like other languages that use non-Latin alphabets, transliteration can be quite a problem.
> 
> If you want to learn more, I strongly suggest you find a copy of The Martial Artist's Guide to Korean Terms, Translation, and Han-Gul, by Master Richard L. Mitchell. Sadly, this book is currently out of print - but you can sometimes find it on eBay.


 
That is a great book if you are able to find it.


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## IcemanSK (Jun 25, 2008)

Windsinger said:


> Another perfect example. At our dojang, it's "kiop", and when I took my first aborted attempt at learning TKD, it was "kiyop".
> 
> I think part of it is that I took a Japanese course a few years ago, and romanized Japanese seems pretty standardized. "Sensei" is always spelled s-e-n-s-e-i, for example. I know exactly what you mean, though.
> 
> As an aside, this reminds me, somewhat, of a Royal Canadian Air Farce skit about the Keep Canada Uni-lingual Fund (KCUF). Their slogan: "We don't want no French spoked 'round here. We want for that our kids to speak just as good'a English as we done." :lfao:


 

I'm gonna add more confusion. The "k" in Korean often is a mixture of a "k" & a "g" sound. Some folks spell it "Gi hap" & it's variations. 

Kacey has a good thought on this. I'll leave it to her & the other folks who know what they're doing.


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## Windsinger (Jun 25, 2008)

IcemanSK said:


> I'm gonna add more confusion. The "k" in Korean often is a mixture of a "k" & a "g" sound. Some folks spell it "Gi hap" & it's variations.


That _definitely_ reminds me of Japanese classes. Where we were told to pronounce 'n' as in 'near', but keep our mouths closed like we were pronouncing an 'm'. :erg:


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## igillman (Jun 25, 2008)

English can sometimes have no standard spelling for its words. "Grey" and "Gray" for example. Then we get different versions, "colour" and "color" etc... Is it any wonder that we have hassles with foreign words when we cannot even agree on our native words?


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## PEP-REP (Jun 25, 2008)

"L" and "R"  is tough for koreans... the same symbol is used for both of our "L" and "R" sounds..

I had a students mother ( korean) trying to tell me a story one time about her father having his "RIVER" taking out  LOL of course after a bit I explained to her it was his LIVER  LOL

I explained it is the mississippi RIVER and a human LIVER  LOL

Glenn


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## Windsinger (Jun 25, 2008)

igillman said:


> English can sometimes have no standard spelling for its words. "Grey" and "Gray" for example. Then we get different versions, "colour" and "color" etc... Is it any wonder that we have hassles with foreign words when we cannot even agree on our native words?


I've heard people say that English is the hardest language to learn. I can believe that, when you think that "staring up steps" and "stepping up stairs" are to completely different actions.


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## Sukerkin (Jun 25, 2008)

Erm, those differences in English words noted are the differences between Real English (as in wot I speak innit from the proper side of the Atlantic) and American or Colonial English .

Only kidding, before the flamethrowers get warmed up :lol:.  Linguistic Imperialism aside, English is a hard language to learn because it is constructed of loose rules to which there are very many exceptions.

Japanese is a hard language for English speakers to learn because it is a very structured language with built-in levels of politness based upon relative social position, sex and circumstance.

Ah, sorry; I have to cut short as the missus is making unrealistic demands on my time i.e. she'd like to see me at some point this evening.

EDIT:  Brief escape - the Romanisation of Japanese is not all that consistent either.  There are three or four different romaji 'systems' - Hepburn, Kunrei Shiki and Nihon Shiki are the ones I can remember off the top of my head.  Hepburn is the most widely used.


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## igillman (Jun 25, 2008)

The "grey"/"gray" thing is not from being on opposite sides of the Atlantic. It really does have two different spellings in the dictionary. Being from the proper, innit, side of the Atlantic but now over on the colonial side I have fun with the following phrase...

"A lorry load of taps in the lay-by on the motorway."

In American English it would be...
"A semi full of faucets at the rest stop on the interstate."

Whenever I order things at a chinese take-away (take-out) I have to say "warder" for "water" because they have only heard American English and they have never heard it spoke proper like what I does.

But, back on topic, transliteration can be standardised. Both major flavours of Chinese (Mandarin and Cantonese) have a standard system called "Pinyin" which helps people like us get a rough idea on how to pronounce something. I have not heard of one for Korean or Russian but that might be because they are both alphabetic languages and it is felt that just transliterating the letters is sufficient.


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## StuartA (Jun 25, 2008)

I was under the impression that the different spellings are down to phonetics.. hangal and kanji are written via 'charactors' not 'ABC' and thus are translated by sound.. that sound is transcribe into English and the spelling largely depends on how they heard them in the first place!

Stuart


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## Sukerkin (Jun 25, 2008)

igillman said:


> The "grey"/"gray" thing is not from being on opposite sides of the Atlantic. It really does have two different spellings in the dictionary.


 
This is true.  

Although only an Englishman all lost to honour would spell it with an "a", for lexicographer Johnson was unduly given over to 'foreign' influences; which is why the OED Useage section will contain the note "See Grey" in the entry for "Gray" .

Just-In-Case Note: I am assuming that the comments in the post from which I partially quoted were meant humorously, for mine most assuredly were.  It is hard to tell if a posters words were meant as po-faced and wry without the use of smileys such as  or :angel:.

If they were not meant with a hidden grin, then please accept my apologies for muddying the waters of this otherwise serious thread.


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## StuartA (Jun 25, 2008)

igillman said:


> English can sometimes have no standard spelling for its words. "Grey" and "Gray" for example. Then we get different versions, "colour" and "color" etc... Is it any wonder that we have hassles with foreign words when we cannot even agree on our native words?


 
Hey.. we agree as we invented the language, all the others are just _'garden tools' _  .. blame it on our pals in the US (_Septic Tanks _in the mother tongue ) .. they always gotta be different :angel:

Ya knows I love ya really.. so stop with those _'James browns' _

Stuart


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## PEP-REP (Jun 25, 2008)

StuartA said:


> I was under the impression that the different spellings are down to phonetics.. hangal and kanji are written via 'charactors' not 'ABC' and thus are translated by sound.. that sound is transcribe into English and the spelling largely depends on how they heard them in the first place!
> 
> Stuart


 
this is correct..


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## Errant108 (Jun 25, 2008)

There are two main systems of Romaja (English romanizations of the phonetic Korean script of Hangeul).  The first, Seoul Revised, is the standard set by the South Korean government, the majority system of Romaja, and the simplest one to use in my opinion.  In Revised (or Standard), the title for teacher is Sabeomnim.

The second, McCune-Reischaur was invented by two American scholars, and is based on a system of phonetic pronounciation rather than transliteration.  This makes it a more accurate read if you understand phonetic symbols, but difficult to type and write with.  In MR, teacher is sap&#335;mnim.

The thing to remember is that in Korean, there is no difference.  This sound is represented by &#49324;&#48276;&#45784;.  Hangeul is a phonetic script, just like English, and a Korean, hearing these sounds, will think these characters, and vice versa.  Hangeul, being one of the most recently invented phonetic scripts, is actually very easy to learn.  Unlike English, which has multiple sounds for one syllable (how many phonetic sounds match with the letter "a"), Hangeul has one symbol for one sound.  So, while there may be 72 symbolic combinations, there is only one sound to go with each one.  I could take anyone on this board and have them reading Hangeul easily in two weeks maximum (note: reading is one thing, comprehending is another...)

In addition to the term Sabeomnim (I prefer Revised) being written &#49324;&#48276;&#45784; in Hangeul, it is actually based off of a Hanja term.  Hanja is the Korean word for Chinese characters, which were used before the relatively recent invention of the Korean phonetic script.  Chinese characters represent whole words or concepts, unlike phonetic systems, which only represent sounds.  This differentiates Hangeul from Chinese, in that Hangeul is phonetic, like English.  The English term teacher carries no weight as an individual character, but is rather made up of syllabic phonetic clusters which we recognize as the sound meaning "teacher".  Chinese characters rather convey a concept which is matched with a sound.  You must recognize the character itself in order to understand the written language, you cannot just "sound it out" like you could in English or phonetic Hangeul.  

Sabeom is a term made up of two Hanja characters.  The first, &#24107;, represents the idea of someone of has mastered a given skill set, and is thus able to teach it.  In Korean, this character is pronounced &#49324;, Sa.

The second character, &#31684;, pronounced Beom in phonetic Korean and written &#48276; (Beom), represents the ideal of a mean or rule, a model or pattern, a mold.  In this context, a sabeom is not just a teacher, but rather, the very pattern from which the idea of teacher should be taken.  The sabeom is the person other teachers look to, the role model, the idea of what a teacher wants to be when they think of the term teacher.

It should be noted that this term does not actually mean teacher, but rather was adopted from the Japanese martial arts term shihan, and was not found in pre-Occupation Korean martial arts. &#24107;&#31684; is Shihan in Japanese.  This term is not a native Korean martial arts term, but rather an adopted one.  That is not to disparage its use, as it has valid philosophical and linguistic meaning.  However, understanding the etymology of the vocabulary involved in one's art  increases the ability to understand and appreciate one's art.

As an example, this term is not used in the system I was trained in.  We use the term &#24107;&#29238;, &#49324;&#48512;, Sabu, which literally means Master/Father.  This implies a familial relationship between practitioners.  In Mandarin Chinese, the necessary Hanja would be pronounced Sifu.  See where I'm going with this?  Of course, in a Korean system, this term is written and pronounced phonetically as &#49324;&#48512;&#45784;...Sabunim...

&#45784;/nim is an honorific following titles.  It has no Chinese character because it is not Chinese, but rather Korean.  It is used only when spoken.  I may write of my teacher as being a sabu or sabeom, but only when speaking of them do I call them sabunim or sabeomnim.

So, where does this leave us with alternate Korean spellings of martial arts terms?

Sa Bum Nym and the like arise out of two main sources.

The first is Korean teachers themselves.  Expertise in martial arts and fluency in Korean does not necessarily equal an ability in linguistic translation and phonetic transliteration.  Thus, many martial arts schools are left with their founder's "best guesses" on how to translate and transliterate the necessary vocabulary.  Move a few generations down the line of transmission, and much like the childhood game of telephone, the final results can be a bit humorous if one actually intends to converse with Korean nationals on the subject.  Outside of that however, it is not a major issue.

The second source is Westerners making their "best guesses" as well.  Here we find the various source phonetics coloring the transliteration, much as we would with Korean teachers.  We like to think we hear things as they are, but when it comes to spoken language, we instinctively hear things as we are trained.  If French was our mother tongue, that is the phonetic set we think/hear in, English, Korean, etc.  It takes a great deal of diligence and linguistic training to overcome this, and frankly, very few (myself included) can.

The fact is that there are sounds in the Korean language that are not phonetically present in English.  Vice versa, there are sounds present in English which do not translate well into Korean.  In English, we have no phonetic equivalent for the sound &#51004;.  In Revised, this is written as Eu.  It sounds like the sound you may make while shivering from extreme cold.  In English, we distinguish between the "L" sound and the "R" sound.  Korean does not. &#12601; sounds like L at one moment, R at another, and sometimes a rolled bastardization of both.

Those who brought the KMA to Western ears did the best they could, be they Westerners or Koreans.  We do not need to cling to their sense of transliteration out of tradition, but we can look back and see what enormous hurdles they had to overcome to introduce their teachings to an entirely different culture.


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## Errant108 (Jun 26, 2008)

PEP-REP said:


> this is correct..



Actually, it's not.  Hangeul is a completely phonetic script.  Symbol equals sound.


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## PEP-REP (Jun 26, 2008)

Errant108 said:


> Actually, it's not. Hangeul is a completely phonetic script. Symbol equals sound.


 
what I meant by saying that is correct is Hangeul is phonetic and when written with english characters you will get different spelling because of it being phonetics..

my understanding of the language is only on a limited basis.. living with my korean instructor for a few years ...LOL 

I would love to learn more.. hint hint  lol

Glenn


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## igillman (Jun 26, 2008)

There is also the issue of word order. Korean is an SOV language (Subject, Object, Verb) but it does not have to be if it does not want to be.

"Boy Ball Kicks" mean "The boy kicks the ball". However, Korean uses subject and object markers so it is equally valid to say "Ball Boy Kicks" or any other combination because the ending of the Subject and Object determines if it is the subject or object (if you follow me). It is rather like saying "Boy subject ball object kicks", you could equally well say "Ball object kicks boy subject" and they both mean the same thing. The normal word order is SOV to avoid severe brain meltdown in conversation.

So now when we transliterate words we need to know what the subject and object markers are so we do not accidentally add them to the ends of words.

On another issue, North Korea uses Hangul exclusively but South Korea also uses chinese characters as well as Hangul. They tend to do that when they are running out of space in newspapers or to make something look pretty. So you may come across Hangul with the odd chinese character in it. That dates back to the time before Hangul when Korean was written by using chinese characters and it has sort of stuck.


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## igillman (Jun 26, 2008)

Just for clarification...
Each Hangul "symbol" is composed of 2, 3 or 4 letters. To pronounce the symbol you pronounce the letters from top left to bottom right. It is an alphabetic language that is written in such a way that individual phonetics are drawn like a symbol. match the symbol to what you know and you can pronounce it without breaking it down. If you do not know the symbol then you can still pronounce it by breaking it down into its individual letters.

It is an amazing system as it allows the speed of chinese reading with the capability of an alphabetic language for unknown words. The double vowels are the worst to try and decipher for me.


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## igillman (Jun 26, 2008)

Errant108 - The chinese symbols you give for SaBeom are pronounced "Shi Fan" in mandarin and they mean "Normal" as in a learning institution (difficult to explain). With a slight modification but still sounding the same it means teacher training.


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## Errant108 (Jun 26, 2008)

That would be the Mandarin Chinese interpretation, but is not the usage of the term in reference to the Japanese budo and as a result, the modern Korean martial arts.

As for "double vowels" in Hangeul, don't try to decipher them.  Pronounce them as one sound.


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## igillman (Jun 27, 2008)

The 30+ year occupation of Korea by Japan hes definitely left its mark on the country as a whole and on its martial arts in particular. You can see how they got some of their Chinese stuff "second hand" through Japan.

I wonder how close spoken Korean is to spoken Japanese?


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## sekiryu (Jun 29, 2008)

> I wonder how close spoken Korean is to spoken Japanese?


Grammatically, the sentence structure is practically the same. Subject, object, verb, with subject/topic/direct object particles. There are a lot of Korean words similar to Japanese words:

Yaksok &#50557;&#49549; = Yakusoku &#12420;&#12367;&#12381;&#12367;
Kabang &#44032;&#48169; = Kaban&#12288;&#12363;&#12400;&#12435;
Junbi &#51456;&#48708; = Junbi&#12288;&#12376;&#12421;&#12435;&#12403;
Kutu &#44396;&#46160; = Kutsu&#12288;&#12367;&#12388;

I hate how the Korean terms are romanized in my Dojang's handbook. I can't pronounce/attempt to pronounce Korean unless I see the Hangeul.

Here's what I've discovered so far:

Doe Jjng &#46020;&#51109; *Do jang*
Doe boak &#46020;&#48373; *Do bok*
Dee &#46944; *Ddi*
Ki yap &#44592;&#54633; *Gi hap*
Gohm sa hahm nida &#44048;&#49324;&#54633;&#45768;&#45796; *Gam sa ham ni da*
Ahn yeong ha shim nika &#50504;&#45397;&#54616;&#49900;&#45768;&#44620;  *An yeong ha shim ni kka*
Sah bum nim &#49324;&#48276;&#45784; *Sa beom nim*
Charyot &#52264;&#47140; *Cha ryeo*
Kyung yae &#44221;&#47168; *Gyeong Rye*
Joon Bee &#51316;&#48708; *Jun bi*
Si chak &#49884;&#51089; *Shi jak*
Goo mahn &#44536;&#47564; *Geu man*
She uh &#49632;&#50612; *Shwi eo*
Hanna &#54616;&#45208; *Ha na*
Dool &#46168; *Dul* 
Set &#49483; *Set*
Net &#45367; *Net*
Da Sut &#45796;&#49455; *Da seot*
Yo Sut &#50668;&#49455; *Yeo seot*
Il Gop &#51068;&#44273; *Il gop*
Yodul &#50668;&#45918; *Yeo deol(m)*
Ah hop &#50500;&#55137; *A heup*
Yol &#50676; *Yeol*
Jee Roogi &#51648;&#47476;&#44592; *Ji reu gi*


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## GlassJaw (Jul 2, 2008)

Windsinger said:


> Another perfect example. At our dojang, it's "kiop", and when I took my first aborted attempt at learning TKD, it was "kiyop".



Korea is a big place with several regional accents and pronunciation patterns. So, even if the calligraphed Korean representation of the word is the same everywhere (and I'm not saying it is), not all Koreans are going to say it the same.  

Nor are all writers going to transliterate it into Roman the same way. 

And not everyone who writes transliterations is necessarily familiar with others' conventions for it.  

Twenty-some years ago, I briefly checked out a TKD class. The instructor, who was a Korean immigrant, wrote the English-language training handouts (basic rules and terminology) himself.  

He came up with many unusual transliterations that I had not seen before nor have seen since.  

For instance the term for a training uniform (which Kacey has informed me is much more appropriately be referred to as a "dobok", rather than a "dobak") he wrote as "toe-balk".  

It's obviously the same word (and, it seemed to me, a pretty accurate spelling with regard to his pronunciation of it), but it serves to demonstrate how we can get such variation in romanized spelling.

Heck, we can't even agree on whether it's "tae kwon do" or "taekwondo".



> I think part of it is that I took a Japanese course a few years ago, and romanized Japanese seems pretty standardized.


Well, getting back to "kiop", the same word (at least, I'm _reasonably_ certain that it's etymologically the same word that made its way from the one language into the other) when transliterated from Japanese is often written as "kiyah" or "ki-ai".  

(BTW, in our school we write it as "giyup".)

Dan


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## GlassJaw (Jul 2, 2008)

IcemanSK said:


> I'm gonna add more confusion. The "k" in Korean often is a mixture of a "k" & a "g" sound.



Last fall when I had the pleasure sitting next to GM Hae Man Park at a dinner, that was one thing I noticed about his speech.  When he would say "Chung Do Kwan" or "Kukkiwon", it sounded like "tshoong do gwahn" and "gookeewoan".   

In English, the only real cue we use to differentiate between a hard G and a K is that the G is voiced and the K is not. 

Granted, this was the only time that I've ever heard native speaker of Korean where I was also familiar with a few of the terms and could parse some of them out . . .However, it led me to theorize that (some? most? all?) Koreans might voice the K sound when it's in the initial position of an accented syllable.  

It was only with very careful listening that I was able to pick out the slight crack (click?) that accompanied the consonant.  As English speakers, we have it in our K but not in our G, but the combination of the click with the voiced palatal plosive (I probably termed that way wrong) does not exist for us.  That could explain why the phoneme is variously transliterated as both a "K" and a "G".

Dan


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