# Is Kung Fu "on the decline"?



## geezer (Mar 11, 2010)

Over on the Wing Chun sub-forum, Chisauking offered up the opinion that these days the interest in Chinese martial arts is on the decline do to the rise of MMA. Do you think this is true? Are students dropping out of your schools? Are the traditional Chinese martial arts dying out or becoming something to entertain kids and crack jokes about? What its your experience?


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## mograph (Mar 11, 2010)

Yep.

Karate schools are on the wane, offering yoga and pilates to pay the rent. Their main purpose is to babysit kids, it seems.
"Kung fu", in the western public's mind, is an artifact of the seventies.
Tai Chi is still a weird thing for old people.

As for fighting, it's all MMA. Television, magazines and action figures. 

People are putting their kids into modern Wushu, but it's hard to say if they'll keep it up. I think that traditional CMA has a future if the trad teachers hook up with a wushu school and transition the kids to trad CMA that way.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 11, 2010)

Regardless of popular belief real live traditional Kung Fu (Wushu) was never that popular in the first place&#8230;.. the training takes a long time and it can be painful


If MMA was a real issue then Sports Sanshou should be on the rise.... and it isn't. The only 3 real live sports sanshou schools I know of on the east coast are in Boston, NYC and Florida.


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## JWLuiza (Mar 11, 2010)

There's a little indie film coming out soon with some guy named.... um... Chang...Jack Chang....Jackie Chan... that's it!

It might boost numbers for awhile...


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## blindsage (Mar 11, 2010)

IMHO, kung fu schools are not on the decline, as Xue said they've never had a particularly large following in the first place.  The most popular forms of MA- TKD, Taiji, and WC do not seem to have been affected by the rise of MMA.  To me MMA is as much a fitness fad as anything else.  I think they draw more of their students from 24 Hour Fitness than from other MA schools (near my mother's house the BJJ club is in the same strip mall as the Gold's gym and offered classes there as well).  This isn't a criticism of BJJ or MMA it's just a personal observation.  There's a lot of people doing MMA training because it's the coolest fitness thing to do right now.  CMA hasn't been that (if it ever was) for decades and doesn't generally draw it's students from that population.


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## wushuguy (Mar 11, 2010)

i think CMA and FMA both do well without being in the spotlight, also because the goals and methods of each are not what most people are looking for. People are looking for fast paced easy to master sports, games, and martial arts. CMA takes a lot of effort to get good at. FMA too.

CMA has much internal development also, requiring mental development and training that is at a different level to that of arts like MMA. And most take understanding and not just doing the motions to make it useful. now we know any martial art takes understanding and experience and talent to compete well, but most people just want to know, fist to face, foot to ribs, or other easily memorized motions or counters. where as CMA has principles behind the motion which develops certain understandings that are hard to explain with words but easily recognized by feel, which most people rather not spend time doing because they don't see the benefits quickly.

as was mentioned before, kung fu, CMA, etc. are not on a decline because it wasn't that popular to begin with, and that should be ok, because kung fu is not for the masses, nor should it be. qigong perhaps is good for everyone, but not kung fu.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 11, 2010)

wushuguy said:


> ... because kung fu is not for the masses, nor should it be.


 
bingo.


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## KnightlyMongoose (Mar 11, 2010)

Martial Arts fade in and out of popularity, I have a feeling that MMA will soon go the way of Tae Bo and there will be nothing left of it but old DVDs at second hand stores (I'm really only joking). But to answer the original question, I do think MMA is hurting kung fu and other traditional styles. Mostly from losing potential students to MMA, but not so much from people leaving their original styles to study MMA. Of course finding a really good kung fu school has always been hard, and the decline of MMA isn't going to change that.


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## Rabu (Mar 12, 2010)

Some senior practitioners of TCMA I have regular contact with feel strongly that they are the last of the old guard and that modern training limitations and lack of interest have brought the level of TCMA down and that it is fading.

If thats true, it would only be because no reason was given by them to keep up the level of the art.

I simply disagree with this kind of sentiment altogether.  MMA nor TKD or any other fad which blows through affects tradition in the manner described here.  

The fad is a literate public being interested in actual practice at all.

Traditional martial arts which have real world applications are HARD WORK.  Achievement is difficult and more rare than is credible to the average person.  The time put in VS the value taken out is far to small for the normal person to appreciate.

Martial arts (empty hand or mechanistic weaponry training) has always been the perview of a small group of people, even inside of a larger military frame of reference.

Rob


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## mograph (Mar 12, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> Regardless of popular belief real live traditional Kung Fu (Wushu) was never that popular in the first place.. the training takes a long time and it can be painful.



This is the best-framed reply, in my opinion. 

But maybe it would help to define "on the decline"? Are we talking about declining position in the popular consciousness, declining number of students, or declining quality of the art?


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## yak sao (Mar 12, 2010)

In the '70's we had kung fu, then I remember ninjitsu being all the rage in the '80s. The 90's brought us BJJ and now we have MMA.
I think these trends/fads will always be with us and the general public will always look for the next greatest thing to glom on to. Meanwhile, us grizzled old timers will keep doing what we do, and occassionally a young person who has the heart of a warrior will come along and breath just enough fresh air into what we do to keep us going.
Kung fu may never be mainstream again as it was in the 70's but that's probably a good thing.


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## kidswarrior (Mar 12, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> Regardless of popular belief real live traditional Kung Fu (Wushu) was never that popular in the first place.. the training takes a long time and it can be painful.


I can only speak from my experience, having no broad knowledge of what's happening out there. But for my little club, I've lost several beginning students (six months or less in our school) to MMA gyms. The interesting thing is, though, that I usually find out later they lasted even less time in MMA training. So what did I really lose? They were just passing through, either way.


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## ggg214 (Mar 14, 2010)

decline is definitely happening, i believe. 
except taiji, many other styles are dying out, or having less practitioner. taiji, as a fighting style, has the same situation. only fitness taiji, without defense requirement is popular, especially in older people.but it's not a kung fu any more.
in real TCMA, the level of successors is dropping sharply. less time, less interest, less usage, etc. it's hard to believe that nowaday someone could do the same training, only one training, for over years.
however, it's nature.as jet lee said, he doesn't warry about this, because it dies for it's out of date.and must be replaced by new one.old is not perfect at all.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 15, 2010)

ggg214 said:


> decline is definitely happening, i believe.
> except taiji, many other styles are dying out, or having less practitioner. taiji, as a fighting style, has the same situation. only fitness taiji, without defense requirement is popular, especially in older people.but it's not a kung fu any more.
> in real TCMA, the level of successors is dropping sharply. less time, less interest, less usage, etc. it's hard to believe that nowaday someone could do the same training, only one training, for over years.
> however, it's nature.as jet lee said, he doesn't warry about this, because it dies for it's out of date.and must be replaced by new one.old is not perfect at all.


 
True, there are a lot of Bagua Masters whose style will die with them since they cannot find any students as well as many other styles as well. But in some cases, even in China, some of this has to do with it is hard training and takes a long time and they simply do not want to do that, even in China.

Also, as much as I like Jet Li, and I do at least in part agree with what he said, let's not forget that his background is not traditional Chinese Marital Arts, it is Modern (Performance) Wushu and Sports Sanshou.

Old is not always perfect, but neither is new.


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## Drac (Mar 15, 2010)

JWLuiza said:


> There's a little indie film coming out soon with some guy named.... um... Chang...Jack Chang....Jackie Chan... that's it!
> 
> It might boost numbers for awhile...


 
Ya beat me to posting that same thought..Some are hoping that it will do for kung-fu enrollment as the first Karate Kid did for renewed interest in karate schools..


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 16, 2010)

Drac said:


> Ya beat me to posting that same thought..Some are hoping that it will do for kung-fu enrollment as the first Karate Kid did for renewed interest in karate schools..


 
OH that's it  ...now you've done it..... You have offended my family and you have offended the Shaolin Temple


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## punisher73 (Mar 16, 2010)

In the US there is a disconnect between "popular" and "practice".  The "kung fu craze" of the 70's was that, it was a popular form of entertainment found in movies, same with the ninja craze of the 80's.  How many people REALLY went out and started to study those arts because of the movies.

MMA is the fastest growing SPECTATOR sport.  Most people aren't interested in really training in MMA.  They might go to a class once in awhile to say they are MMA fighters, but they don't go through with the training.

In the US, there is a decline on ANY contact combat sport.  How many boxing gyms are around still, compared to what there used to be?  Hard contact kung fu or karate schools?  People want the belt to say they have it without the hard work, sweat and blood it used to take to get it.  

The only way that MMA will REALLY impact TMA's is when they figure out a way to make the training as low impact as possible and dish it out McDojo style and make it a belt factory so people can go and claim it.  Otherwise, it's just that a fad that people will look at and then lose interest.  The small amount of people who are really dedicated to hard work and sweat is about the same, just most look to the MMA gyms to get it now instead of the hard knock TMA schools like in the past.


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## mograph (Mar 16, 2010)

You've made me think, Punisher73! Curses on you!

Anyway, you've led me to consider the possibility that hard work is on the decline with respect to physical activity. However, people still work out, and marathoning is still gaining popularity. But why not martial arts, as a physical practice?

People think they'll get beat up or beat up other people?
The paradigm shifts are too great (e.g. "santi shi is good for you")?
It's Chinese, so it's weird (in the west)?

If an art becomes what many people want it to be, it will become more attractive and therefore more popular. Sure people want something new, but they also want something within their comfort zone: "vetted" through existing popularity and not requiring an unexpected amount of mental and physical effort.

Until more people want to beat up other people (because that's the popular image of a lot of what we do), martial arts will remain at their current level of popularity, in my opinion. However, when the aging population reads enough articles about tai chi and sees it practiced by healthy non-Chinese people, it will become more popular as a "health" art. Will that popularity overflow into martial CMA? I hope so ... if anyone is around to teach it by then.


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## Shifu Steve (Mar 25, 2010)

The only experience I've had with regards to this is in trying to recruit students.  I agree with earlier posts that defining "decline" has to be in context (ie pop culture vs actual enrollment in training).  However in my case, I still train with a couple guys that I've trained with for years.  In the past I have tried to retain a few students of my own so I could of course enjoy teaching as well as give me a means to practice.  In my attempts to recruit students I've found that a lot of them ask how it relates to MMA; as if MMA was the be all and end all of martial arts training.  It's funny because in many cases I don't think they know what MMA is in the first place.  I guess they imagine it's a formula of boxing, muay thai and BJJ.  I suppose that's one combination but come on; Mixed Martial Arts is so vague that it could be any combination.  Anyhow, my long winded point is that due to misconception, pop culture and confusion of sport for martial arts I think that some (in my personal experience) have been reluctant to train in Kung Fu because they think of kata or tradition and can't make the connection of how it will benefit them.  I also think there are misconceptions that kata is impractical for self defense (or offense).


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## yak sao (Mar 25, 2010)

I'd be interested in Knowing what percentage of China's population practices MA compared to USA's. We in the west tend to think everyone from China does Kung Fu.


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## mook jong man (Mar 25, 2010)

yak sao said:


> I'd be interested in Knowing what percentage of China's population practices MA compared to USA's. We in the west tend to think everyone from China does Kung Fu.


 
One of my students is Chinese and he says that most of them would rather watch Kung Fu in movies than actually do it themselves because they don't want to get hurt.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 26, 2010)

yak sao said:


> I'd be interested in Knowing what percentage of China's population practices MA compared to USA's. We in the west tend to think everyone from China does Kung Fu.


 
Traditional CMA is taking a major hit in China. Many want flash (Modern Wushu) or health (Beijing 24 form) or fighting (Sanshou). TCMA training is too hard and takes to long. 

There are a lot of TCMA styles dying off because the guys that know it are getting old and dying and they cant find students that truly want to learn the style they know.

I believe the percentage based on the population (approximately 1,347,000,000 people) is rather small.


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## ggg214 (Mar 28, 2010)

yak sao said:


> I'd be interested in Knowing what percentage of China's population practices MA compared to USA's. We in the west tend to think everyone from China does Kung Fu.


 
how many in USA?
i believe practitioners in MA is more and more nowaday, but most of them are training modern MA, Japanese MA or muay thai etc.


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## Haakon (Mar 28, 2010)

Drac said:


> Ya beat me to posting that same thought..Some are hoping that it will do for kung-fu enrollment as the first Karate Kid did for renewed interest in karate schools..



The problem is since the new movie is still called "The Karate Kid" it will tend to give a boost to any school with "karate" in their name, regardless of the style. I don't think it will give very many kung fu schools much of a bump.

Maybe it's gotten too expensive, or just never really worked, but 20-30 years ago I remember seeing commercials on TV for kung fu studios (usually during 'Black Belt Theater' when Shaw Brothers movies were run), today I never see them, even though the schools are still open.


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## Carol (Mar 28, 2010)

Haakon said:


> The problem is since the new movie is still called "The Karate Kid" it will tend to give a boost to any school with "karate" in their name, regardless of the style. I don't think it will give very many kung fu schools much of a bump.
> 
> Maybe it's gotten too expensive, or just never really worked, but 20-30 years ago I remember seeing commercials on TV for kung fu studios (usually during 'Black Belt Theater' when Shaw Brothers movies were run), today I never see them, even though the schools are still open.



I think that was the case with a good number of schools.

[yt]<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/n7PEMGuA6tw&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/n7PEMGuA6tw&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>[/yt]

They are more expensive than a yellow pages add.   Funny thing though...now that evvvvvveryone has cable, the local avails (ads played in just one town) have a lot of reach, and are quite affordable.


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## 72ronin (Mar 31, 2010)

Is it on the decline? i dont know to be honest. But i wouldnt think so.

When i was younger (in my 20's lol) i trained wing chun during the day for a year and a half becouse i worked at night at the time, most of the people training in wing chun (i managed to catch the odd 6:30 pm class occasionaly aswell) were not going to join Karate or judo, they were suited to what they were doing.

I had already gained about two years of a freestyle karate previously (karate/judo blend) to my wing chun experience and they were generaly different kinds of people from different walks of life, generaly speaking ofcourse.

So i would imagine that certain peoples would always be drawn to different arts. Ofcourse im not saying one is better or worse than the other becouse there were strong practitioners in both my experiences at those venues. Maybe its more of a mindset thing, not everyone wants to bother with highkicks or showy sparring or even chainpunching, whatever their preference for self-defence training is, will define what they look for.

The young will always want something flashier and the older we get the more mature type arts we start to think about.. These days (although i practice shotokan) my interest is heavily in Bagua, i dont think i would have been so interested back in my early 20's in the Bagua.

So maybe its just the young we are talking about here, like new consumers to the latest product or something.
Meh, the Kung Fu's out there have lasted through all this before. When kickboxing was becoming known/popular it survived just fine etc. MMA is not the be all and end all. Even Krav or Systema, theres nothing new there, no new invented techniques lol.

How about gouging someones eye out, is that in MMA?
I can tell you that MuayThai and BJJ are not suited to my daughter for egsample, i hope she never does but if shes ever in some type of violent situation i dought its going to be an even weight and experience bout, we should train for worst case scenario so she will be outweighed and outstrengthed wont she, what do you suggest? 
Striking/grappling just went out the window, shes gotta go for the eyes/throat/groin/knees etc all the nasty stuff right?   I think Kung Fu's will survive just fine in my opinion.

my two cents
cheers


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## dancingalone (Mar 31, 2010)

Thanks for posting that Jhoon Rhee commerical, Carol.  What a hoot!


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## 72ronin (Apr 1, 2010)

...Everybody..has..cat...avatars??
Excuse my ignorance, but does the red bow signify a charity or something?


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## 72ronin (Apr 1, 2010)

Oh,   1st of April.. lmao


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## Phoenix44 (Apr 2, 2010)

Yes, I do think MMA is hurting traditional kung fu.  I joined a kung fu school about a year and a half ago because, after years of Japanese martial arts, I was looking for something different.  As the months went by, the school began to change.  The weapons classes disappeared, they introduced more MMA type sparring and less kung fu technique, and brought in a BJJ class.

I guess they're looking for broader appeal.  I was just interested in CMA.


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## Golden Harvest (May 8, 2010)

Phoenix44 said:


> Yes, I do think MMA is hurting traditional kung fu. I joined a kung fu school about a year and a half ago because, after years of Japanese martial arts, I was looking for something different. As the months went by, the school began to change. The weapons classes disappeared, they introduced more MMA type sparring and less kung fu technique, and brought in a BJJ class.
> 
> I guess they're looking for broader appeal. I was just interested in CMA.


 

I have the same observation also.  It's all about money that is why I would stay away from schools that offer everything under the sun or what is the popular martial art flavor of the month.  Finding good instruction is not easy and having good students is also just as difficult.  In the west, people look at martial arts as recreational or as a way to be fit.  There is no culture attached to it.  Whereas, in the east, martial arts is part of the cultural roots.  People tend to be more serious and are more respectful.  It's their heritage.  In the west, there is no heritage.  Without this connection, all you have is an exterior shell with little substance and appreciation.  This will not last long.  To study, for instance, Tai Chi is to study the Chinese culture.  One can not separate the two to achieve any high level understanding of this art or other arts as well.  Not many people would be so committed.


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## Pakua (May 8, 2010)

MMA it's just a wave like some others system in the past...just let the wave go and then you will see the real size of MMA....they never will be able to compete with kung fu




Pa Kua School UK - *http://pakuauk.blogspot.com*


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## Golden Harvest (May 9, 2010)

Pakua said:


> MMA it's just a wave like some others system in the past...just let the wave go and then you will see the real size of MMA....they never will be able to compete with kung fu
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I've checked out your website and watched the 10 minute video.  I see nothing of Pa Kua.  All I see is people in Karate uniforms practicing Japanese martial arts.  Nothing Chinese about your Pa Kua except the name itself.  What am I missing????


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## Pakua (May 9, 2010)

Our main website is: pakua.com

And for one side, yes is a name, from the other side we do Pakua as well....but you will not find that in the videos.

(pls. go to private messages if you want to continue with this topic, is nothing to do in this thread)


Pa Kua School UK - *http://pakuauk.blogspot.com*


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## Xue Sheng (May 10, 2010)

Golden Harvest said:


> I've checked out your website and watched the 10 minute video. I see nothing of Pa Kua. All I see is people in Karate uniforms practicing Japanese martial arts. Nothing Chinese about your Pa Kua except the name itself. What am I missing????


 
It appears to be based more on the bagua and not meaning Baguazhang.. or at least that is what I am getting from looking at and reading the webpage.


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## Pakua (May 10, 2010)

Bagua means PaKua....

Bagua it's a modern way to write Pa Kua...and yes, they have similarity with Pa Kua Chuan, but for us PK Chuan it's only a course.




Pa Kua School UK - *http://pakuauk.blogspot.com*


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## Xue Sheng (May 10, 2010)

Pakua said:


> Bagua means PaKua....
> 
> Bagua it's a modern way to write Pa Kua...and yes, they have similarity with Pa Kua Chuan, but for us PK Chuan it's only a course.


 
Thank You

Actually both are modern ways to write &#20843;&#21350;. Bagua is Pinyin and Pakua is Wade-Giles and the both are modern representations of &#20843;&#21350; for us westerners. 

Same with Baguazhang and Pakuachang both are actaully &#20843;&#21350;&#25484;

And I would like to hear more about your "course" in PK chuan. To me it is general style label with a lot of sub styles underneath it; Chang, Yin, Jiang, etc.


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## clfsean (May 10, 2010)

It's funny... I've seen Bagua Quan & Bagua Zhang both. Even played BGZ for a minute & neither resemble what the video shows.


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## Pakua (May 10, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> Thank You
> 
> Actually both are modern ways to write &#20843;&#21350;. Bagua is Pinyin and Pakua is Wade-Giles and the both are modern representations of &#20843;&#21350; for us westerners.
> 
> ...



Pa Kua Chang it's only a course, is not a part of our regular martial art classes. The students do this course when he wants... 
The Pa Kua School it's a international institution teaching different classes but al based in the "Pa Kua Symbol". Our school/classes are the application of this Symbol to different activities.


Pa Kua School UK - *http://pakuauk.blogspot.com*


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## repz (May 15, 2010)

Not in my area. These so called trendy folks who come to NYC flock to kung fu schools. Kung Fu is very overpriced when it comes to other martial arts. I assume its in high demand, and some schools I have checked out prove it to be so, usually with high attendance from trendy out-of-towners with money. I can understand MMA being over 130 bucks a month due to the media and hype from the business, but kung fu has prices just as up there.

I was part of Hung Ga, i noticed the kung fu class had a good size, but the san shou right afterwards would have less students. I think it attracts those kinds of people who want something to do, like yoga, or some other "thing" to occupy the time.

I been looking at a praying mantis school, the one run by tony chuy, but i suspect its groing to be around 200 a month.


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## Xue Sheng (May 15, 2010)

repz said:


> Not in my area. These so called trendy folks who come to NYC flock to kung fu schools. Kung Fu is very overpriced when it comes to other martial arts. I assume its in high demand, and some schools I have checked out prove it to be so, usually with high attendance from trendy out-of-towners with money. I can understand MMA being over 130 bucks a month due to the media and hype from the business, but kung fu has prices just as up there.
> 
> I was part of Hung Ga, i noticed the kung fu class had a good size, but the san shou right afterwards would have less students. I think it attracts those kinds of people who want something to do, like yoga, or some other "thing" to occupy the time.
> 
> I been looking at a praying mantis school, the one run by tony chuy, but i suspect its groing to be around 200 a month.


 

Everything in NYC is expensive.

And I doubt Sanshou is attracting people looking for Yoga. Sanshou is pretty much all about fighting and training and has no forms and that is why it tends to attract fewer people. That and there is a high degree of possibility that in a sanshou class you will get hit and the training is not easy and can be painful


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## repz (May 15, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> Everything in NYC is expensive.
> 
> And I doubt Sanshou is attracting people looking for Yoga. Sanshou is pretty much all about fighting and training and has no forms and that is why it tends to attract fewer people. That and there is a high degree of possibility that in a sanshou class you will get hit and the training is not easy and can be painful


 
Yeah, thats what I meant, I didnt mean those same class of people would take san shou. I didnt want to sound disrespectful to cma by saying it.

If I was able to find a praying mantis school that teaches san shou id be set.

I have found schools that arent expensive in other systems, I trained in bjj for under 130, and kyokushin under a 100, and many japanese styles under 80. I just emailed someone that is teaching Mantis in a community center and even he teaches way out there prices for whats just 4 walls and a small space.


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## Shifu Steve (May 19, 2010)

repz said:


> Not in my area. These so called trendy folks who come to NYC flock to kung fu schools. Kung Fu is very overpriced when it comes to other martial arts. I assume its in high demand, and some schools I have checked out prove it to be so, usually with high attendance from trendy out-of-towners with money. I can understand MMA being over 130 bucks a month due to the media and hype from the business, but kung fu has prices just as up there.





repz said:


> I was part of Hung Ga, i noticed the kung fu class had a good size, but the san shou right afterwards would have less students. I think it attracts those kinds of people who want something to do, like yoga, or some other "thing" to occupy the time.
> 
> I been looking at a praying mantis school, the one run by tony chuy, but i suspect its groing to be around 200 a month.




Wow.  I had no idea that was the going rate in NYC.  I train in NYC but I do it in Central Park with a couple guys I've trained with for years.  The style of Mantis I know (Northern style dating from the Song Dynasty) is nothing any "trendy" out-of-towner would want to learn.  Its very hands on, lots of hooks, wraps, joint manipulation, you name it.  The Grand Master that taught me charged me next to nothing and we trained outside year round.  

If you'd like a reference to a reputable school in the city that won't gouge you contact me privately and I can dig one up for you.  I'm sure I have one or two contacts that can drop a good name.


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## clfsean (May 20, 2010)

Shifu Steve said:


> Wow.  I had no idea that was the going rate in NYC.  I train in NYC but I do it in Central Park with a couple guys I've trained with for years.  The style of Mantis I know (Northern style dating from the Song Dynasty) is nothing any "trendy" out-of-towner would want to learn.  Its very hands on, lots of hooks, wraps, joint manipulation, you name it.  The Grand Master that taught me charged me next to nothing and we trained outside year round.
> 
> If you'd like a reference to a reputable school in the city that won't gouge you contact me privately and I can dig one up for you.  I'm sure I have one or two contacts that can drop a good name.



Song Dynasty... how about some info on it?


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## Shifu Steve (May 25, 2010)

clfsean said:


> Song Dynasty... how about some info on it?


 
That's really the extent of my knowledge on the history of the three forms I know from the system.  They were taught to Grand Master Cook (my teacher) by Grand Master Dennis Hardy (his teacher) by Grand Master Pai (who I assume learned them in China).


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