# Doing Things for Money: Evil, or Not?



## wingchun100 (May 5, 2014)

I enjoy writing. Every now and then I send out short stories and/or poems to see if I can get them published. To be honest, I am a little bummed whenever the magazine that accepts them turns out to be one that doesn't pay.

I also enjoy playing and recording music. However, studios cost money. Therefore if I can't come up with a plan that AT LEAST recoups the studio fees so I break even, I can't do it.

Some people view this attitude as "evil" or "wrong," or they say it means my heart really isn't in these things. However, I view it from a different angle: my heart is VERY MUCH into writing and music...so much so that I would like to make enough money so I could quit my day job and do either one full-time.

In fact, I think that is every writer's or musician's goal: they want to do music all the time, so they are driven to achieve that goal. Yet for some reason, an unknown average guy like me expresses those aspirations, and I get accused of "not really being into it."

I have paid my dues for a long time honing my craft at home before letting ANYONE read a story or poem, or hear a song. That would be like accusing a Sifu or Sensei of not having their heart into it simply because they expect the school they open to make money. After all, you spent all those years learning your art...so if you teach, then you should do it out of love and not expect to make money. But in the meantime there is the question: who pays the rent, the utility bill, buys the equipment?

You can see how fast the "doing it for money makes you soulless" statement falls apart under any kind of scrutiny.

I know where I stand on this issue. What do you folks here on the board think of it? If you have never given it any thought before, I understand.


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## donnaTKD (May 5, 2014)

i write poetry too 

i write for my local library and a local art gallery - now and again my writing gets picked up and used and i get a bit back from it but i know that it would never cover my day to day needs so i have to keep up the day job 

i'd love to be able to quit everything and just live a total Muay Thai existence where all i did was practise from dawn till dask and maybe if i win the lottery then it'll happen and i guess pigs will fly that day too


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## Tony Dismukes (May 5, 2014)

Who is saying these things to you? I know lots of musicians and I've never met one who had an objection to earning a buck from their music. None of the writers I know have such an objection either.


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## granfire (May 5, 2014)

even poets and musicians got to eat.

You don't think Bon Jovi got where they are by working for free?!

I am a booster for the high school band: Making music is expensive! 
so yeah, getting a little return, just to not go broke is a good thing.

Now, the things people do for a Klondike bar are a different matter!


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## Dirty Dog (May 5, 2014)

I work to live. I don't live to work. It's that simple.

The idea that doing what you're good at for money somehow detracts from what you're doing is just plain stupid.


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## wingchun100 (May 5, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Who is saying these things to you? I know lots of musicians and I've never met one who had an objection to earning a buck from their music. None of the writers I know have such an objection either.



It is usually non-writers and non-musicians, although there is one exception to this rule: a local guy who often writes blogs about how musicians are wrong for charging money for their music. (Of course when I fired back at him and pointed out how he was praising Black Sabbath in a previous article after BUYING THEIR ALBUM, he had nothing to say.) 

So as I say, he believes musicians should not charge for music. But then again, you have to consider his position: he lives at home still with his mom and dad, pays no bills, and gets disability...so he is FREE to spend his money on recording equipment and software without having to worry about making rent or buying groceries. Sometimes, you have to consider the source, but he is not the only person I know who has said these things. I have met a handful of musicians who get on their moral/indie/whatever it is high horse and think there is something wrong with a person who wants to be paid.

Then at the opposite extreme there is one writer I heard of (can't remember which one) who said, "When I get an envelope from a publisher, I open it up and hold it upside down. If a check falls out, I read the letter. If it doesn't, I throw the letter out."


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## wingchun100 (May 5, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Who is saying these things to you? I know lots of musicians and I've never met one who had an objection to earning a buck from their music. None of the writers I know have such an objection either.



And you are very lucky to not have run into these narrow-minded fools. Where I live, they seem to run rampant. They ARE out there.


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## wingchun100 (May 5, 2014)

granfire said:


> even poets and musicians got to eat.
> 
> You don't think Bon Jovi got where they are by working for free?!
> 
> ...



No, I don't think Bon Jovi got where they are by working for free because I am not talking about MY opinion. I am talking about that of other people I have met.


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## granfire (May 5, 2014)

wingchun100 said:


> No, I don't think Bon Jovi got where they are by working for free because I am not talking about MY opinion. I am talking about that of other people I have met.



those are the people who can't play a kazoo and want everything free.

Ok, I can't play the kazoo and I am cheap....(but I also take pictures and dream to be published at one time before I die) 

In other words: They can go and self-gratify themselves!


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## Takai (May 5, 2014)

granfire said:


> In other words: They can go and self-gratify themselves!



I may have to "steal" that quote.


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## Buka (May 7, 2014)

I don't know anything about music. As for writing, stay with it, bruh, don't let anyone or anything dissuade you.

Poetry is the toughest sell in the business. I always think of it more along the lines of personal expression rather than marketable. Short stories are different, but it's a tough market to find. You mentioned in your post - _"I am a little bummed whenever the magazine that accepts them turns out to be one that doesn't pay."_

You might want to get your hands on some issues of Writer's Digest magazine. They have resources detailing every magazine's criteria for submission and the compensation you'll receive. They also used to publish a big book every year (don't know if they still do) that had every single source that bought ANY writing. It's a great tool for a writer to have. Both the book and their magazine are a pretty good way to get an idea of how the writing market actually works. Stay with it and best of luck!


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## wingchun100 (May 7, 2014)

Buka said:


> I don't know anything about music. As for writing, stay with it, bruh, don't let anyone or anything dissuade you.
> 
> Poetry is the toughest sell in the business. I always think of it more along the lines of personal expression rather than marketable. Short stories are different, but it's a tough market to find. You mentioned in your post - _"I am a little bummed whenever the magazine that accepts them turns out to be one that doesn't pay."_
> 
> You might want to get your hands on some issues of Writer's Digest magazine. They have resources detailing every magazine's criteria for submission and the compensation you'll receive. They also used to publish a big book every year (don't know if they still do) that had every single source that bought ANY writing. It's a great tool for a writer to have. Both the book and their magazine are a pretty good way to get an idea of how the writing market actually works. Stay with it and best of luck!



I do buy the NOVEL AND SHORT STORY WRITER'S MARKET. I do a "shotgun effect" where I submit the same story to multiple magazines. Some pay, some don't. More often than not, it is the non-paying ones that agree to publish. It is still a thrill to see my name in print, but by this point I would like to EARN something for it.

As for music, I do not believe it is wrong for a band to want to earn money doing it. Wouldn't it be great if you could play music all the time instead of having to hold down a job too? People hold on to these stupid indie rock morals where they believe if you sell more than 10 copies of your record, you have sold your soul to the devil in exchange for music that appeals to the masses. It's an idiotic way of shooting yourself in the foot. Why are indie rockers (and their fans) so afraid of success?


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## Steve (May 7, 2014)

In any endeavor, it's not the money that is the problem.  It's the influence that the money is buying that can be the problem.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk


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## Tony Dismukes (May 7, 2014)

wingchun100 said:


> People hold on to these stupid indie rock morals where they believe if you sell more than 10 copies of your record, you have sold your soul to the devil in exchange for music that appeals to the masses. It's an idiotic way of shooting yourself in the foot. Why are indie rockers (and their fans) so afraid of success?



As I said, none of my musician friends are averse to earning some money from their music. As far as "indie rockers" who don't seem to want to make money, I suspect there are two main categories:

1) Musicians who wouldn't mind making some money but who put first priority on making the kind of music they want to play (which might or might not be commercially viable). I have a lot of respect for this position.
2) Musicians who aren't going to be making money at their art anyway (due to their levels of talent, work ethic, charisma, etc or due to circumstances beyond their control), engaging in sour grapes rationalization. "I really didn't want to make money anyhow."

As far as fans complaining about "sell-outs", these are people who want to feel special by virtue of knowing some band that no one else had heard of. If the band becomes widely popular, then it no longer acts as an ID badge for the super-secret clubhouse of cool people.


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## Buka (May 7, 2014)

The money thing....

I think writer's write because they have to. It's the same (IMO) as training Martial Arts. I sometimes imagine heroin would be easier to kick than Martial addiction. (I am in no way making light of addictions, just making a point) Do you remember the first time you ever received money for something you did in Martial Arts? I mean, Holy Crap, "they're paying me!" It was like getting paid for breathing.

A couple of us were asked to fight some three round kickboxing matches in 1976. They would give us 500 bucks. We were sure it was a scam. 500 bucks for six minutes of stuff we did every night? At the time, the minimum wage was two bucks and change an hour. We all got paid. Amazing. (hell, I'm still amazed)

Making money for writing, music, Martial arts, whatever - is a good thing. I don't see how money could taint the love we all have to begin with. 
As my dad used to say, _"Son, money isn't everything. Just make sure you have enough of it before you ever talk such nonsense."_


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## wingchun100 (May 7, 2014)

Buka said:


> The money thing....
> 
> I think writer's write because they have to. It's the same (IMO) as training Martial Arts. I sometimes imagine heroin would be easier to kick than Martial addiction. (I am in no way making light of addictions, just making a point) Do you remember the first time you ever received money for something you did in Martial Arts? I mean, Holy Crap, "they're paying me!" It was like getting paid for breathing.
> 
> ...



That's what weird about it. A lot of the people who pass this kind of judgment...are broke!!!


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## Steve (May 7, 2014)

Sometimes, surely, there is resentment.  But, the thing is, when you are paid well for art, the person paying you is likely to begin imposing conditions.  And, I'm not entirely opposed to it.  If I'm a record producer, and I'm going to make you "the next big thing," I'm paying you to get on board with me.  There's something about your band I like, but I'm also going to start imposing some restrictions.  I've invested in you, and in return, I expect you to be marketable and give me solid return on my investment.

Same for publishers.  Editors don't just correct your grammar.  They tell you to change things and fix things, and the good ones are ruthless.  If they pay you, it's not out of the kindness of their hearts. They're purchasing a stake in you.  You are essentially taking on a partner.

So, the idea of selling out has merit.  You are trading autonomy and absolute creative control for money.  And typically, the people paying you aren't interested in art.  They are interested in making more money.  And so there can be conflict, particularly where their creative demands are contrary to your artistic sensibilities.

Some artists would argue that being a broke artist is better than being a rich sell out.  Of course, the opposite can also be true.  I read a book once called 'Outside the Dog Museum.'  I'm paraphrasing, but there was a quote in there something like, "Artistic suffering is BS.  Anyone who suffers for a living is an idiot, not a genius."


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## wingchun100 (May 7, 2014)

Steve said:


> Sometimes, surely, there is resentment.  But, the thing is, when you are paid well for art, the person paying you is likely to begin imposing conditions.  And, I'm not entirely opposed to it.  If I'm a record producer, and I'm going to make you "the next big thing," I'm paying you to get on board with me.  There's something about your band I like, but I'm also going to start imposing some restrictions.  I've invested in you, and in return, I expect you to be marketable and give me solid return on my investment.
> 
> Same for publishers.  Editors don't just correct your grammar.  They tell you to change things and fix things, and the good ones are ruthless.  If they pay you, it's not out of the kindness of their hearts. They're purchasing a stake in you.  You are essentially taking on a partner.
> 
> ...



That is why some bands hold out for a label who is less strict, which is naturally the smart thing to do in an artistic sense. I mean, R.E.M. was on IRS Records for years to maintain creative control. By the time they switched to Warner Brothers, they STILL had control. Same went for bands like Husker Du, Jawbox, Sonic Youth and countless others. And all of these bands earned enough to make a living at it...without selling out.


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## granfire (May 7, 2014)

wingchun100 said:


> That's what weird about it. A lot of the people who pass this kind of judgment...are broke!!!



Thou shalt not be less broke than I am....


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