# Yuen Kay San Passing Footwork



## Argus (Jan 7, 2021)

I was wonder if anyone was familiar with the passing step that Kwok Wan Ping demonstrates here.

Edit: The time stamp feature doesn't seem to work when sharing here, but skip to the 5:00 mark to see the footwork I mention.





I am not (yet at least) a Yuen Kay San WC practitioner, though the lineage does interest me.

It seems kind of like a hyun or biu-ma combined with a passing step similar to the footwork from the baat jam dao, and reminiscent of the kind of passing steps that you see in many HEMA or Japanese weapons based arts.

I was wondering if this sort of footwork is common in other lineages as well, and what its general application is far. It seems good for closing distance quickly, and perhaps for flanking to the outside or getting in deep for a throw. Not to mention stepping off line in the case of weapons.


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## drop bear (Jan 8, 2021)

It looks like a turn off or a pivot.


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## _Simon_ (Jan 8, 2021)

drop bear said:


> It looks like a turn off or a pivot.


OR @drop bear........ Kay...... San...... ?


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## APL76 (Jan 8, 2021)

That's not a passing step; its for kicking the front leg out from under a forward weighted stance


Argus said:


> I was wonder if anyone was familiar with the passing step that Kwok Wan Ping demonstrates here.
> 
> Edit: The time stamp feature doesn't seem to work when sharing here, but skip to the 5:00 mark to see the footwork I mention.
> 
> ...





It's not a step per se, its an attack of the front leg of a front weighted stance. Doing it the way Kwok Wan Ping is demonstrating it there it won't work. I can only surmise that he didn't want to show that guy how to actually do it.


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## Argus (Jan 8, 2021)

APL76 said:


> That's not a passing step; its for kicking the front leg out from under a forward weighted stance
> 
> It's not a step per se, its an attack of the front leg of a front weighted stance. Doing it the way Kwok Wan Ping is demonstrating it there it won't work. I can only surmise that he didn't want to show that guy how to actually do it.



Interesting. I'd like to see the kicking version.

But, you don't see it as also having value as just a piece of foot work? It seems like a good way to chase, close distance, or flank an opponent rather than just shuffling up the center with biu ma. Maybe a target for a kick presents itself, maybe not, and it works either way?

There's also that old saying (not sure how universal it is) "every step is a kick; every kick is a step"


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## Svarog (Jan 8, 2021)

There is a similar step or better word is technique in Snake Crane Wing Chun and interestingly in Bajiquan. It is actually a kick that aims either ankle or a heel of the opponent . Also the angle of the technique\step is slightly different


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## geezer (Jan 8, 2021)

We do a similar passing step that can, with minor variations: a. simply be used to cover ground and maintain pressure against a retreating opponent, b. be used together with a "cutting punch" much as shown here, or c. be used to close and attack your opponent's front leg, ....perhaps like what APL76 was referencing above?

In any case, this is something we do in our group, and not identical to what I was taught in the "WT" lineage. On the other hand, it's a step, not rocket science so I imagine a lot of people use stuff that's pretty similar.


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## APL76 (Jan 8, 2021)

Argus said:


> Interesting. I'd like to see the kicking version.
> 
> But, you don't see it as also having value as just a piece of foot work? It seems like a good way to chase, close distance, or flank an opponent rather than just shuffling up the center with biu ma. Maybe a target for a kick presents itself, maybe not, and it works either way?
> 
> There's also that old saying (not sure how universal it is) "every step is a kick; every kick is a step"




Well, I hesitate to make a definitive statement as to its efficacy, or lack thereof, outside of attacking a weighted leg, but there are things that are intended to cover all of that outside of that technique, the knife footwork being just one (and at face value at any rate very similar in appearance, at least to how Kwok is doing it here). As far as I learned it, and given what it is supposed to look like, I suspect its range of usefulness is fairly confined to attacking the leg. All the same, the more I learn the more I also learn that there are few black and whites; maybe there are legitimate uses outside of what I know.

But, I wouldn't read too much into the way Kwok Wan Ping is doing it, It's pretty half a@#$ed, and I suspect deliberately so. He was definitely Sum Nung's disciple, he would certainly know the technique. I'm guessing he just didn't want to show it to that guy.


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## geezer (Jan 8, 2021)

APL76 said:


> ....he would certainly know the technique. I'm guessing he just didn't want to show it to that guy.



That's quite common among older Chinese sifus. My old sifu would often show incomplete or even deliberately wrong stuff to keep the "real knowledge" private. As a result, he put out a fair amount of stuff publicly that wasn't truly representational of what he believed. And frankly, even though I saw more of the "authentic stuff" I'm sure he held a lot back from me too. Especially later on, after I got on his bad side.... 

As a teacher by profession, I find that ...er  ... "cultural trait" quite unethical. But it "is what it is" and we get instruction where we can find it.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 8, 2021)

Argus said:


> I was wondering if this sort of footwork is common in other lineages as well,


To advance the leading foot, the back foot slide and follow is commonly used in many CMA system.






Just wonder what kind of punch is used at 1.10 - 1.44? It looks like neither back fist nor uppercut. What is it? Why not just use a straight punch to the face?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 8, 2021)

geezer said:


> My old sifu would often show incomplete or even deliberately wrong stuff to keep the "real knowledge" private.


This kind of attitude is not worthy. Students will talk badly about their teacher after their teacher has passed away.

You came to this earth. you then leave the earth. To leave a bad reputation on earth is just not a smart thing to do.


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## geezer (Jan 9, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This kind of attitude is not worthy. Students will talk badly about their teacher after their teacher has passed away.
> You came to this earth. you then leave the earth. To leave a bad reputation on earth is just not a smart thing to do.



Very true remarks ....whether talking about your MA instructor or applied more broadly to our leaders in general. Some will "leave a bad reputation...."


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## APL76 (Jan 9, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> To advance the leading foot, the back foot slide and follow is commonly used in many CMA system.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That punch, assuming that guy is doing what I was taught is simply meant to be a straight punch just with an inverted horizontal fist. Its not uncommon in a few varieties of wing chun as far as I have seen.


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## obi_juan_salami (Jan 9, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This kind of attitude is not worthy. Students will talk badly about their teacher after their teacher has passed away.
> 
> You came to this earth. you then leave the earth. To leave a bad reputation on earth is just not a smart thing to do.


regardless of reputation or reason, a teacher surely has the right to pass on/keep for himself their own hard earned knowledge?


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## drop bear (Jan 9, 2021)

obi_juan_salami said:


> regardless of reputation or reason, a teacher surely has the right to pass on/keep for himself their own hard earned knowledge?



It wouldn't be very clever in today's competitive market though. When you can get some seriously good training for very little investment.


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## obi_juan_salami (Jan 9, 2021)

drop bear said:


> It wouldn't be very clever in today's competitive market though. When you can get some seriously good training for very little investment.


true, if you are selling it. Then 'trade secrets' particularly genuine ones could give you an upperhand, i can see that. 

not all teachers are out to make money though and some couldnt give a rats *** what the market is like. 

personally im of the opinion that, although of course teachers have a responsibilty to their students in that they shouldnt mislead them, the responsibility of the student has been a little downplayed in modern times. as a seeker of knowledge and skill isnt it just as much the students role to train hard, with dedication and loyalty and be (as cringily mystical as it sounds) 'worthy' of what they have been taught? the whole reason i learn from my teacher/teachers is i wana be a baddass like them. if i could be half as awesome ill take what i can get! instead of feeling some kind of entitlement that i and everyone deserve to know every detail about everything. 

A really wise man once told me that if you really value what you have learned you wouldnt share it easily. not only cause you worked damn hard for it but the moral implications of not contributing to the wider communities library of knowledge are dwarfed by blindely giving away to anyone, of any character the knowledge to potentially misuse and cause harm in society?


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## APL76 (Jan 9, 2021)

geezer said:


> That's quite common among older Chinese sifus. My old sifu would often show incomplete or even deliberately wrong stuff to keep the "real knowledge" private. As a result, he put out a fair amount of stuff publicly that wasn't truly representational of what he believed. And frankly, even though I saw more of the "authentic stuff" I'm sure he held a lot back from me too. Especially later on, after I got on his bad side....
> 
> As a teacher by profession, I find that ...er  ... "cultural trait" quite unethical. But it "is what it is" and we get instruction where we can find it.



Honestly, I think it's quite reasonable in most cases. 

After all, think about being in Kwok Wan Ping's position. Some guy comes up to you and expects you to spill your guts to him all about your kung fu and allow him to film it no less. Why would or should you? I wouldn't just lay it all out for some guy who showed up and just wanted me to show him stuff. I would probably do it exactly as KWP was in that video. How do you know you can trust this guy?

My sifu would always reiterate two things to me once he finally gave me permission to teach 1) before you buy a horse watch to see which horse runs the furthest; and 2) once you teach something you can't take it back.  

Far from disagreeing with it I understand it and I agree with it. But, to each their own. I know it's a pretty unpopular attitude these days and if people have the opposite opinion that's OK by me. 

Also, myself as a teacher by profession (until covid run the programme I taught in off the rails at least) I agree that it would be problematic if I taught anthropology with the attitude with which I teach wing chun. Different contexts.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 9, 2021)

obi_juan_salami said:


> regardless of reputation or reason, a teacher surely has the right to pass on/keep for himself their own hard earned knowledge?


You go to MIT computer science department to learn how to be a software engineer. Your MIT professor teaches you how to write a computer program. The first program that you write, your computer says, "invalid programming syntax". Will you take your MIT computer science professor to be responsible for this?



obi_juan_salami said:


> potentially misuse and cause harm in society?


What if a teacher taught his students the wrong information, his student tried to use it to save his wife from being killed. It didn't work. His wife was killed. Will that be the teacher's fault?



obi_juan_salami said:


> if you really value what you have learned you wouldnt share it easily.


I have never heard anyone who does scientific research and has never published any paper. The moment that you publish your paper. Your knowledge is in the public domain.

Science is all about sharing. MA should be no different.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 9, 2021)

geezer said:


> show incomplete or even deliberately wrong stuff to keep the "real knowledge" private.


Incomplete information doesn't bother me, but wrong information bother me a lot.

Incomplete information - To do body squeeze, you need to put your leg behind your opponent's leg.

Complete information - To do body squeeze, you need to put your leg behind your opponent's "back" leg.







Nobody will force you to teach. But if you decide to teach, you should not teach the wrong information.

This is OK.

A: Will you teach me?
B: No! I won't.

This is not OK.

A: Will you teach me.
B: Yes! I will. Your first lesson is to use a dumbbell to hit on your own head 1000 times to develop your "toughness".

I have seen a MA instructor who taught his student in the following way.

A: Dear master! I want to learn meditation from you.
B: Draw a dot on the wall. Sit 1 foot away from the wall. Stare at it for 2 hours non-stop daily.

2 months later, that student had a pair glasses on.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 9, 2021)

APL76 said:


> Some guy comes up to you and expects you to spill your guts to him all about your kung fu and allow him to film it no less. Why would or should you?


There are other method to steal someone's secret.

My teacher wanted to learn a master's favor technique, but that master won't teach my teacher. My teacher went to that master's house, kicked on his front door, cursed on his whole family. The master came out, chased my teacher, and beat my teacher up with his favor technique. My teacher ran away, turned his head around, and said, "Thank you for teaching me your favor technique."


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## drop bear (Jan 9, 2021)

obi_juan_salami said:


> true, if you are selling it. Then 'trade secrets' particularly genuine ones could give you an upperhand, i can see that.
> 
> not all teachers are out to make money though and some couldnt give a rats *** what the market is like.
> 
> ...



Not with martial arts. Because the better the people are around you the better you get. And you do this by sharing your secret knowledge letting someone take that and improve it or defend it. Then they share it, you improve it and so on.

And the more you unpack your techniques and use them the better you get at them.

The secret squirrel nonsense is why some systems have struggled to compete over the last, especially 20 years. Which has produced youtube an a much more collaborative martial community.

I mean if you are still garbage in say 6 months. Take a serious look at the system you are using. If everyone else is garbage then jump ship. There are plenty of exceptional martial artists running around these days.

The idea of hanging around for some secret techniques is probably a lie these days.

Like this example in the OP. You could pay a legitimate amateur boxer or kickboxer. So a guy with some real legitimate skills a six pack and he would take you through how to make a pivot step work. Or even a Thai sweep if that was what that move was trying for.

I mean a semi successful amateur fighter is still working a 9 to 5 and could use the extra coin.

I was taught that sweep by Damien Brown on an $80 for a 3 day seminar.




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=3796459370366494


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 9, 2021)

drop bear said:


> the better the people are around you the better you get.


Agree with you 100% there. If your opponent knows how to escape a single leg, it will force you to train how to use single leg to set up something else.

Old Chinese saying said, "Teacher and students can grow at the same time."


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## APL76 (Jan 9, 2021)

obi_juan_salami said:


> true, if you are selling it. Then 'trade secrets' particularly genuine ones could give you an upperhand, i can see that.
> 
> not all teachers are out to make money though and some couldnt give a rats *** what the market is like.
> 
> ...





Kung Fu Wang said:


> You go to MIT computer science department to learn how to be a software engineer. Your MIT professor teaches you how to write a computer program. The first program that you write, your computer says, "invalid programming syntax". Will you take your MIT computer science professor to be responsible for this?
> 
> 
> What if a teacher taught his students the wrong information, his student tried to use it to save his wife from being killed. It didn't work. His wife was killed. Will that be the teacher's fault?
> ...




I think the scenarios you describe here are different to that kung fu depending on your attitude to the kung fu. 

As a person who was until recently an academic I agree with you on all your points in that context. The saying goes you either publish or perish. Now, if you were relying on your kung fu to pay the bills then you might have a similar attitude to an academic. If you are in a position to be choose about who you teach, then why would you teach anyone who stumbles along?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 9, 2021)

APL76 said:


> If you are in a position to be choose about who you teach, then why would you teach anyone who stumbles along?


If you

- don't trust a person, you won't teach him.
- trust a person, when you teach that person, you have no secret to hide.


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## APL76 (Jan 9, 2021)

Just looking at some of the comments here I think there are probably two different approaches at play here. 

It appears to me that some people are talking about a teacher holding back "secret techniques" from THEIR students or teaching THEIR students erroneous stuff, and people are saying that that is bad. 

I'd agree. Obijuan's and my sifu often tells us that Sum Nung would tell him "there are no secret techniques in Wing Chun". Yet that's not really what we are talking about.

Sum Nung himself never showed how to do his Wing Chun properly when he showed it in some public demonstration, of which he did a small number. The conditions that our Sifu learned wing chun from Sum Nung were quite strict and he was instructed to not only cut ties with the Yip Man side of wing chun (he was Yip Chun's student before he met Sum Nung) but he was also told not to go showing his wing chun to anyone and everyone who came along. Our Sifu isn't quite so strict with us, he's still strict, but not THAT strict, but, knowing the conditions he learned under, and having respect for him and Sum Nung, we hold similar attitudes; and indeed given how he taught me over the last couple of decades, I know If I just went filming our Guangzhou wing chun and putting it out there I probably wouldn't learn much of it. 

My students however, I teach them 100% accurately to the best of my ability, just as my Sifu does with us. Nothing is presented in a skewed manner to "protect secrets". It's a matter of not spilling your guts to outsiders who you hardly know and don't know whether you can trust of not. Those on the inside as it were, no problem, outsiders however........that is where one gets careful about what you show.

Why is that??? Well someone resurrected an ancient thread here about William Cheung the other day, I suspect hundreds of years of unscrupulous people in kung fu has taught people to be a little reticent to give out the goods willy nilly.


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## APL76 (Jan 9, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you
> 
> - don't trust a person, you won't teach him.
> - trust a person, when you teach that person, you have no secret to hide.



Sure, and that's the point I seemed to be typing while you were typing that. 

But say someone shows up and asks you to show them a few things. They seem like a nice guy, they are passionate about kung fu and social conventions and polite manners dictate that you can't just come across like an a@#hole and tell them to go away? 

I suspect that's the position a lot of these old traditional kung fu guys are put in when well meaning people show up and ask them to show them a few things. I bet that's the position Kwok Wan Ping was put in in the original video on this thread. 

And lets not forget this isn't confined to Wing Chun, nor is it a specifically Chinese thing. I have a friend who aside from doing wing chun also does Japanese martial arts and he has told me that you learn properly for a long time, but you are never given all pieces of the puzzle until quite a long way in. 
I learned a very particular style of horsemanship that comes from California and by all accounts the old masters of that stuff wouldn't tell you a damned thing until they knew you were to be trusted. As Obi_Juan_Salami said, if you hold something precious you don't just dish it out to anyone who thinks they are entitled to it.


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## paitingman (Jan 9, 2021)

APL76 said:


> Sure, and that's the point I seemed to be typing while you were typing that.
> 
> But say someone shows up and asks you to show them a few things. They seem like a nice guy, they are passionate about kung fu and social conventions and polite manners dictate that you can't just come across like an a@#hole and tell them to go away?
> 
> ...


In the case of outsiders, I still don't see what's wrong with just showing them some basics or nothing at all. 
If it's their prerogative who they share teachings with, then they could just not share anything.

The year is 1974, a tourist has just stepped off the dock in Atlanta and wants to know where the United States Capitol is.
The first man he approaches doesn't say a word and walks right by him.
The second man he approaches smiles warmly and says, "You're gonna want to get yourself a bus ticket to Buffalo, NY."

Which one of them was the real a$*hole?


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## drop bear (Jan 9, 2021)

APL76 said:


> Sure, and that's the point I seemed to be typing while you were typing that.
> 
> But say someone shows up and asks you to show them a few things. They seem like a nice guy, they are passionate about kung fu and social conventions and polite manners dictate that you can't just come across like an a@#hole and tell them to go away?
> 
> ...



Is this isolationism why some styles just are not as good?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 9, 2021)

APL76 said:


> if you hold something precious you don't just dish it out to anyone who thinks they are entitled to it.


If there is an opportunity that there can be one more person who can pass your MA knowledge down to the next generation, why do you want to miss that chance?

What good can it be if someone brings all his MA secret to his grave? IMO, the task to preserve the MA is more important than anything else.


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## BrendanF (Jan 9, 2021)

APL76 said:


> But say someone shows up and asks you to show them a few things. They seem like a nice guy, they are passionate about kung fu and social conventions and polite manners dictate that you can't just come across like an a@#hole and tell them to go away?
> 
> I suspect that's the position a lot of these old traditional kung fu guys are put in when well meaning people show up and ask them to show them a few things. I bet that's the position Kwok Wan Ping was put in in the original video on this thread.



That's quite an insulting characterisation to level at someone.  Have you watched any of his (Monkey Steals Peach) videos?  Do you know anything at all about him and what he does?

I do.  And I can tell you that he has an extensive history in CMA, has spent years living in China, speaks mandarin.. and chooses to travel and produce documentaries on CMA.  In every instance he arranges introductions and attempts to film and document the arts honestly.

If it was me I'd be pretty irritated by your accusation.


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## Eric_H (Jan 9, 2021)

BrendanF said:


> That's quite an insulting characterisation to level at someone.  Have you watched any of his (Monkey Steals Peach) videos?  Do you know anything at all about him and what he does?
> 
> I do.  And I can tell you that he has an extensive history in CMA, has spent years living in China, speaks mandarin.. and chooses to travel and produce documentaries on CMA.  In every instance he arranges introductions and attempts to film and document the arts honestly.
> 
> If it was me I'd be pretty irritated by your accusation.



Just because he, or anyone else, is nice and polite doesn't mean that any master will show him or anyone else their actual stuff. Particularly not on film. Not sure why that's triggering you to be butthurt on this guy's behalf.


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## BrendanF (Jan 9, 2021)

Not sure why you'd need to describe me as 'triggered' or 'butthurt'.  I don't really care at all.  But I do know the guy who makes those videos, and the context they are filmed in.  I maintain that your description is quite insulting.

You seem to be flitting between making two separate assertions - the post I quoted I read as saying that you feel these 'old traditional kung fu guys' are 'being put in a position' that amounts to being coerced to reveal valuable material against their will.

Now you seem to be claiming that your assertion is simply that 'being nice and polite doesn't mean any master will show anyone.. stuff.'  

I'm not sure of the connection, and certainly don't disagree with the second statement.  I disagree with your claim that Will put anyone in some sort of coerced position, and believe it's pretty insulting.


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## obi_juan_salami (Jan 9, 2021)

BrendanF said:


> That's quite an insulting characterisation to level at someone.  Have you watched any of his (Monkey Steals Peach) videos?  Do you know anything at all about him and what he does?
> 
> I do.  And I can tell you that he has an extensive history in CMA, has spent years living in China, speaks mandarin.. and chooses to travel and produce documentaries on CMA.  In every instance he arranges introductions and attempts to film and document the arts honestly.
> 
> If it was me I'd be pretty irritated by your accusation.


i didnt see anything insulting about APL76s post..
the oppsite really, he called him a passionate martial artists and a nice guy? 

fact is even with all those things you know abkut him amd the work that he does do you really know his character? unless you know him personally id say no. it takes time to get to know another person and to build trust. 

dont know about you buti wouldnt give a copy of my house key to someone who is just a nice guy based on my first impression but i dont know him? not tk mention if he documents and shares with the world his findings isnt it more reason not to show him? then your knowledge reqlly is going to MILLIONS of people you dont know..


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## BrendanF (Jan 9, 2021)

Firstly my apologies to Eric for confusing him with APL76.

As I say, I'm certainly not insulted - I don't know Will personally.  But I have spoken with him and believe I have some understanding of how he approaches producing his documentaries.

Again, in directly quoting APL76's post I pointed out how he is explicitly stating that he believes Will is coercing these people, virtually 'tricking' people into being filmed.

If you don't think that's insulting that's fine, we can agree to disagree - again I don't care in the least, I just wonder why one would assume such scheming or devious motives in someone you don't know.


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## obi_juan_salami (Jan 9, 2021)

BrendanF said:


> Firstly my apologies to Eric for confusing him with APL76.
> 
> As I say, I'm certainly not insulted - I don't know Will personally.  But I have spoken with him and believe I have some understanding of how he approaches producing his documentaries.
> 
> ...


perhaps that may have been misinterpreted. i dont think he meant that will had ill intentions or motives or that he was tricking kwok. i took it more as pointing out an awkward social situation. the guy is polite and clearly has a genuine interest, is respectful and wants to learn. so kwok gives him a taste rather than revealing the essence.

if someone respectful, nice and eager asked you but at the same time you dont know them personally, you just meet them somewhere in the middle. give them a taste without giving them everything. if they are keen they will come back for more lessons. seems fair to me. 

i think if you gave them nothing and just said "NO ITS MY SECRET" it just makes for an awkward interaction, you make no friends, have no potential students and just look bad.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 9, 2021)

geezer said:


> On the other hand, it's a step,


It can be explained this way.

- Both you and your opponent have right legs forward.
- Your right leg is on the right side (your right) of your opponent's right leg.
- You don't want to enter through your opponent's front door for some reason. You move your front leg in a small curve to be outside of his front leg. This may involve a shin bite.
- You then enter through his side door.


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## BrendanF (Jan 9, 2021)

> perhaps that may have been misinterpreted.



It could well be.  However I don't think it is - I think APL76 provided an inaccurate description based on a flawed premise.

APL76 bases his entire position on the claim that Will showed up and "asked to be shown a few things."

This is not what happened - as I said, he organises introductions and discusses thoroughly before filming.

Again - he is a documentary maker.  That's all.

If one wanted to discuss TMA teachers withholding 'secrets' or demonstrating incorrect material in front of a camera is one thing.  That is a trait that has been thoroughly documented.

"social conventions and polite manners dictate that you can't just come across like an a@#hole and tell them to go away?" ... "I suspect that's the position a lot of these old traditional kung fu guys are put in when well meaning people show up and ask them to show them a few things. I bet that's the position Kwok Wan Ping was put in"

If you don't think that's insulting, again we can agree to disagree, that's fine.

I fail to see how someone couldn't simply say 'no, I don't film my art' - without coming across like an *******?  It has happened many times in the past.  Again I say that it is describing someone 'asking to be shown a few things' 'putting someone in a position' ... being coerced.  The reality is Will doesn't train Wing Chun, didn't ask to be shown anything, and didn't put anyone in any position - other than able to promote their art through his documentaries.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 9, 2021)

APL76 said:


> That punch, assuming that guy is doing what I was taught is simply meant to be a straight punch just with an inverted horizontal fist. Its not uncommon in a few varieties of wing chun as far as I have seen.


I have never seen any straight punch that punch this way.


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## APL76 (Jan 10, 2021)

BrendanF said:


> Not sure why you'd need to describe me as 'triggered' or 'butthurt'.  I don't really care at all.  But I do know the guy who makes those videos, and the context they are filmed in.  I maintain that your description is quite insulting.
> 
> You seem to be flitting between making two separate assertions - the post I quoted I read as saying that you feel these 'old traditional kung fu guys' are 'being put in a position' that amounts to being coerced to reveal valuable material against their will.
> 
> ...





I think you are mixing me and Eric_H up. That aside, to begin with, I really don’t care one way or another about whoever the guy is, his motives or anything else about the guy. I’m sure he is a lovely guy, and passionate about kung fu. Indeed, I think I said something to that effect.

The main point I am making can be summed up by a question: Is that guy Kwok Wan Ping’s disciple? If the answer is no, he is not, then why would Kwok Wan Ping be willing to give him everything about any of the Sup Yi Sik, which is what it appears to me he is showing the guy? If Kwok Wan Ping hasn’t known the guy for a fair while, how would he know that that guy can be trusted?

It has nothing to do with that guy, or Kwok Wan Ping in particular, it’s just a statement about not showing stuff in detail to people you don’t really know. That simple.


Now, in relation to other stuff you are reading into my post. Absolutely nowhere did I suggest that that guy was coercing Kwok Wan Ping into anything. Absolutely nowhere did I insinuate that he was tricking anyone into being filmed, and absolutely nowhere did I assert that the guy had scheming of devious motives.

If I said any of that stuff in anything I wrote, quote them back to me. I suspect you won’t be able to.


As obi_juan_salami kindly stated, all I’m saying is that when someone comes and wants to talk with you about kung fu, you don’t know the guy so don’t know to what degree he can be trusted, but he seems OK so you are happy to share a bit of your material with him. But still, you don’t spill you guts about everything. It’s not a reflection on that guy filming stuff, it’s an acknowledgement that the relationship is not established to a degree that warrants trust.


Now, if you want to be irritated and offended by that, and further, read a heap of stuff into my post that’s not there. Be my guest.


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## APL76 (Jan 10, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I have never seen any straight punch that punch this way.


Well, without wanting to irritate or offend anyone (seems I have a knack for it) lets just say that the way it is being done there is not really representative of what I would consider correct.


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## BrendanF (Jan 10, 2021)

APL76 said:


> I think you are mixing me and Eric_H up.



Yes, I did note and apologise for that mistake.  See post #34, perhaps you missed it.



APL76 said:


> The main point I am making can be summed up by a question: Is that guy Kwok Wan Ping’s disciple? If the answer is no, he is not, then why would Kwok Wan Ping be willing to give him everything about any of the Sup Yi Sik, which is what it appears to me he is showing the guy? If Kwok Wan Ping hasn’t known the guy for a fair while, how would he know that that guy can be trusted?
> 
> It has nothing to do with that guy, or Kwok Wan Ping in particular, it’s just a statement about not showing stuff in detail to people you don’t really know. That simple.



I understand what you're saying.  I guess I view the videos differently; I don't see any magical secrets being shown, and I don't really understand why anyone would have a problem with Mr Kwok demonstrating whatever he sees fit in a doco.  And beyond that - how do you know how long they've known each other?



APL76 said:


> Now, in relation to other stuff you are reading into my post. Absolutely nowhere did I suggest that that guy was coercing Kwok Wan Ping into anything. Absolutely nowhere did I insinuate that he was tricking anyone into being filmed, and absolutely nowhere did I assert that the guy had scheming of devious motives.
> 
> If I said any of that stuff in anything I wrote, quote them back to me. I suspect you won’t be able to.



I did - several times.  Here goes again though.



APL76 said:


> But say someone shows up and asks you to show them a few things. They seem like a nice guy, they are passionate about kung fu and social conventions and polite manners dictate that you can't just come across like an a@#hole and tell them to go away?
> 
> *I suspect that's the position a lot of these old traditional kung fu guys are put in when well meaning people show up and ask them to show them a few things. I bet that's the position Kwok Wan Ping was put in in the original video on this thread.*



You bet Mr Kwok was put in a position in which he feels that polite manners dictate he can't just come across like an a@#hole and tell him to go away?

And you don't think that statement implies coercion?  Ok.



APL76 said:


> As obi_juan_salami kindly stated, all I’m saying is that when someone comes and wants to talk with you about kung fu, you don’t know the guy so don’t know to what degree he can be trusted, but he seems OK so you are happy to share a bit of your material with him. But still, you don’t spill you guts about everything. It’s not a reflection on that guy filming stuff, it’s an acknowledgement that the relationship is not established to a degree that warrants trust.
> 
> 
> Now, if you want to be irritated and offended by that, and further, read a heap of stuff into my post that’s not there. Be my guest.



I have no real issue with you having your own views on keeping your secret stuff.  I have no real issue with you forming strange assumptions about documentary film makers and other kung fu teachers demonstrating stuff on film; you are of course welcome to them, they are worth as much as any.  I studied YM WCK for a number of years, but quit over a decade ago - as I said earlier I didn't see anyone 'spilling  their guts about everything' but you may see it differently.

I'm not offended - I believe I mentioned that.  I do however know the guy, and think your characterisation is offensive.  As I said before if I was the film maker I probably would be offended.


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## Argus (Jan 10, 2021)

I don't see what is wrong with either case, I suppose.

On the one hand, I come from the open source world, where everyone builds on and contributes to everyone else's code base, and things are shared freely. I like that culture, and I like the martial artists who take that approach.

But at the same time, I understand why some teachers would be quite selective of what they show to who. And I don't think it's bad to be careful about what you put out there to the general public.

Let's imagine this scenario:
You don't just want to put everything out there for the whole world to see, but you're okay with sharing a glimpse of your art. If someone sees that and wants to learn earnestly, and gains your trust, why not? In that case, you wouldn't mislead anyone, but you would perhaps hide some things or make them less obvious. We don't just go sharing our most private/personal thoughts completely unfiltered on Social Media, do we? When we share anything with the general public, we share only what we are comfortable with. That changes from person to person. Why should it be any different for teachers?

Again, I personally like teachers who are really up front and open, but I don't think that being more reserved makes one dishonest.

There's also the matter of understanding. Basically, the understanding and interpretation of pretty much anything gets watered down, butchered, misinterpreted, and misrepresented the moment it reaches the public sphere. I think there's a lot to be said for keeping certain things among a tight circle of people who can understand and appreciate it, and also preserve that thing as it is supposed to be.

It's kind of like the works of pretty much any famous thinker ever. Take any famous philosopher, and read their original work, as opposed to what others write about them, and you'll quickly realize that the majority of ink spilled about them is written by people with only a superficial knowledge of the subject, or some particular agenda, and this feeds on itself with every reinterpretation built upon reinterpretations.

Some things just require a greater level of commitment to truly understand, and sharing those things in an indiscriminate and public way can backfire, if what you are concerned about is the continued integrity of the thing itself.

It depends largely on the nature of the thing, and the purpose of the teacher.


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## Argus (Jan 10, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I have never seen any straight punch that punch this way.



This is very common in Wing Chun, and I've seen it in other arts as well. It's a cutting punch. The elbow remains low and bent because of the range, and because it protects you. You can deflect a low punch and hit at the same time by taking the low line, almost like a jum sao on the way in. It's not so great against extended high punches of course, because the lines and distances are all wrong, but in that case it can still occupy center and set you up for an arm bar.


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## geezer (Jan 10, 2021)

APL76 said:


> ....if you hold something precious you don't just dish it out to anyone who thinks they are entitled to it.



I think we mis-understood each other earlier. I actually agree with your position as quoted above. I don't expect anybody to just give away their best stuff to a casual student. You teach them ...or you don't. Or more likely, you show them something, but not everything, should be _honest _about it. 

But you don't _lie_ and deliberately teach them incorrect or misleading material while happily taking their money, unless maybe they are such a total jerk that they have it coming. And I think we can agree on that!


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## geezer (Jan 10, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I have never seen any straight punch that punch this way.


The main difference between this and the more typical way you might see this lap-da or jut-da delivered is the forearm and hand position. Normally in my lineage the fist would be vertical, especially at this level and in this application. The ulnar side of the forearm is down so it can cut across the top of your opponent's arm allowing your arm to wedge in and over your opponent.


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## drop bear (Jan 10, 2021)

Argus said:


> Some things just require a greater level of commitment to truly understand, and sharing those things in an indiscriminate and public way can backfire, if what you are concerned about is the continued integrity of the thing itself.



But you can either learn that sweep or that pivot pretty easily off guys who are better at it. And who will teach it to you because showing someone a step or a sweep isn't as big a deal to them.


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## APL76 (Jan 10, 2021)

drop bear said:


> "guys who are better at it".
> 
> Don't underestimate Kwok Wan Ping. Before he met Sum Nung he was already a very experienced martial artist and some sort of wrestling champion in China and more than willing to fight on the spot. Indeed, the way he met Sum Nung was, according to what I heard anyway, he walked up as though he wanted to meet Sum Nung then out of nowhere went for a takedown. Sum Nung floored him so Kwok jumped up and said something to the effect of "wow, you are really good, will you be my sifu". Apparently Sum Nung wasn't too impressed so told hi to go away. It took Kwok a while to convince Sum Nung to teach him. He was a bad a@#. Hell, when he escaped China he did it by SWIMMING to Hong Kong. He is pretty old now though.


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## APL76 (Jan 10, 2021)

BrendanF said:


> Yes, I did note and apologise for that mistake.  See post #34, perhaps you missed it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I don't know what you think you are reading in that thing you quoted from me earlier but that isn't about coercion and there is not a word about anyone tricking anyone of being sneaky and having ulterior motives. 

It's a comment on the social situation in which politeness dictates a particular course of action, after all, unless one is of diminished intellectual capabilities it should easily be understood that Kwok was as much a party to the meeting as the other dude. It does, as the saying goes, take two to tango. There's not a word about coercion there, or the other nonsense you attributed to me.


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## APL76 (Jan 10, 2021)

geezer said:


> I think we mis-understood each other earlier. I actually agree with your position as quoted above. I don't expect anybody to just give away their best stuff to a casual student. You teach them ...or you don't. Or more likely, you show them something, but not everything, should be _honest _about it.
> 
> But you don't _lie_ and deliberately teach them incorrect or misleading material while happily taking their money, unless maybe they are such a total jerk that they have it coming. And I think we can agree on that!




I think that's it. When one takes a student they also take the responsibility to teach them properly. Anyone who is an outsider however, they get what they are given. If they become an "insider" as it were, then they will be taught properly. 

But there are also other considerations re teaching and getting to know someone. during the "getting to know you stage" one might be taught stuff but it wouldn't be to the same depth or level of detail. Which, given the progression of learning, providing that level of detail would be a waste of time anyway in many cases. Most of it would go over a student's head. It would be more just keep pushing them in the right direction but still not laying it all out in one go.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 10, 2021)

A: Dear master! Can you teach me how to do technique X?
B: You should do technique X as ... .
A: Can you spar with me so you can use technique X on me?
B: ...

When you give your student the wrong information, how can you hide your secret if your student challenges you?


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## obi_juan_salami (Jan 10, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> A: Dear master! Can you teach me how to do technique X?
> B: You should do technique X as ... .
> A: Can you spar with me so you can use technique X on me?
> B: ...
> ...


if you are challenging your teacher to fights id say you have bigger problems than just learning technique x. such as 'growing up'

also after you little fight technique x might be the last thing you ever learn from the guy.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 10, 2021)

obi_juan_salami said:


> if you are challenging your teacher to fights id say you have bigger problems than just learning technique x. such as 'growing up'


If a teacher spars with his students all the time, it's very difficult for that teacher to hide his secret from his students.


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## Argus (Jan 10, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> A: Dear master! Can you teach me how to do technique X?
> B: You should do technique X as ... .
> A: Can you spar with me so you can use technique X on me?
> B: ...
> ...



I agree, BUT... I think you're making assumptions. All we know is what he shared publicly in the video. He could have very well told the guy afterwards a lot more that we don't see.


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## obi_juan_salami (Jan 10, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If a teacher spars with his students all the time, it's very difficult for that teacher to hide his secret.


Okay well you said challenge so i assumed a fight. 

some teachers would rather lose to you than give you what you want. its called martial virtue. you cant make someone teach you.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 10, 2021)

Argus said:


> I agree, BUT... I think you're making assumptions. All we know is what he shared publicly in the video. He could have very well told the guy afterwards a lot more that we don't see.


I'm not talking about that video. I'm just saying that a teacher's secret is not that easy to hide if that teacher spars with his students.


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## Argus (Jan 10, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I'm not talking about that video. I'm just saying that a teacher's secret is not that easy to hide if that teacher spars with his students.



But those are his students, whom he should already trust. Why would he hide things from them?
I agree that, generally, hiding things from students is not nice. Trust is a two way street, and anyone who's overly secretive towards their own students may not actually have the skill that they claim to have. Who would they even train with to keep their skills sharp?

My point is that we were talking about the video, and it's obviously meant for the public.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 10, 2021)

obi_juan_salami said:


> some teachers would rather lose to you than give you what you want. its called martial virtue. you cant make someone teach you.


When someone gets into a fight, his body will react exactly the way as he is trained.


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## APL76 (Jan 10, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I'm not talking about that video. I'm just saying that a teacher's secret is not that easy to hide if that teacher spars with his students.



Why are you assuming that a teacher withholds "secrets" from students? 

When I teach my students I withhold a lot from them, but none of it is a secret. I withhold stuff that they are not ready for. Its not withholding secrets, its teaching at a level appropriate to the student's needs. My sifu does it with me, I do it with my students; I'd say any teacher worth their salt does it in whatever field they teach in, not just martial arts. 

What do you expect? A new student walks in, never done martial arts before and so you show them all the forms and associated techniques and drills and then do some full contact sparring all in the first 2 hour lesson? If we don't do that we are withholding secrets?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 10, 2021)

Argus said:


> hiding things from students is not nice.


That's my main point. Thanks for saying that for me.


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## obi_juan_salami (Jan 10, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When someone gets into a fight, his body will react exactly the way as he is trained.


so by your logic training gives you no control at all over how your body reacts? you sir are a funny man.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 10, 2021)

APL76 said:


> What do you expect? A new student walks in, never done martial arts before and so you show them all the forms and associated techniques and drills and then do some full contact sparring all in the first 2 hour lesson? If we don't do that we are withholding secrets?


I'm talking about situation like this.

A: This is the way that you do technique X.
B: If my opponent uses technique X on me, how should I counter it?
A: The counter for technique X is a secret. I can't teach you that.
B: ...

I can understand why a teacher may not want his students to learn how to counter the teacher's best technique X. May be some day his student will challenge him. He wants to make sure that his best technique X can still work on his students.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 10, 2021)

obi_juan_salami said:


> so by your logic training gives you no control at all over how your body reacts? you sir are a funny man.


Of course you can cheat in fighting. But when a knife is stabbing toward your chest, your body will respond as you have trained.


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## APL76 (Jan 10, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I'm talking about situation like this.
> 
> A: This is the way that you do technique X.
> B: If my opponent uses technique X on me, how should I counter it?
> ...



Well, maybe there are people like that out there but I'm not sure wing chun really works in such a 1 to 1 manner as Technique X is countered by Technique Z so I won't show you Z. 

This is where we get all these people going on about wing chun being a "conceptual art". I suspect any martial art is a "conceptual art". But certainly if your students understand the principles behind techniques and have good foundations any decent student will be create their won technique to counter Technique X.


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## obi_juan_salami (Jan 10, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Of course you can cheat in fighting. But when a knife is stabbing toward your chest, your body will respond as you have trained.


now your going to STAB you teacher? 

im wetting myself hahahah


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 10, 2021)

APL76 said:


> wing chun being a "conceptual art".


So what kind of secret that a conceptual art teacher may try to keep?


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## APL76 (Jan 10, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> So what kind of secret that a conceptual art teacher may try to keep?



Well, again I suspect all martial arts are conceptual arts, I don't think wing chun is special in that regard, but lets say I teach a student to do what we call single centreline punches. 

I first get them to simply throw the punch while pulling their retreating arm up to the resting arm position. At first, if a student can get the two arms coordinated and going vaguely in the correct directions I'm happy with that. I don't bother telling them to keep their shoulders still, to turn their elbow down, to not close their fist around their thumb, and any number of other things they are getting wrong. All in good time (well, I might point out the thumb thing). 

So, am I keeping secrets from my student?

The withholding things from outsiders is what I'm talking about. Some people just show someone something roughly like the technique and don't do it fully, or with all of the details (which is what I suspect Kwok Wan Ping was doing in the original video). People like my Sifu on the other hand, would just decline to meet you in the first place. Is that keeping secrets from students? Keeping stuff from people who are not your student, or not showing stuff publicly?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 10, 2021)

obi_juan_salami said:


> if you are challenging your teacher to fights id say you have bigger problems than just learning technique x. such as 'growing up'.


When I was 14, the 1st year of my senior high, I joined i_n _my senior high school long fist informal class. During the first day of my long fist class. I asked my long fist teacher, "What will you do if I punch at your face?" My long fist teacher said, "Come and punch me."

I might be the only student who challenged the teacher during the 1st day of that informal class in the past 30 years. I believe even today, I still hold a record on that. 

I was in the front row, the 5th from the right.


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## obi_juan_salami (Jan 10, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When I was 14, the 1st year of my senior high, I joined i_n _my senior high school long fist informal class. During the first day of my long fist class. I asked my long fist teacher, "What will you do if I punch at your face?" My long fist teacher said, "Come and punch me."
> 
> I might be the only student who challenged the teacher during the 1st day of that informal class in the past 30 years. I believe even today, I still hold a record on that.
> 
> I was in the front row, the 5th from the right.


congrats but you didnt challenge your teacher. he invited you to try and punch him. would you have hit him if he said "shut up and get back in line?"


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## obi_juan_salami (Jan 10, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When I was 14, the 1st year of my senior high, I joined i_n _my senior high school long fist informal class. During the first day of my long fist class. I asked my long fist teacher, "What will you do if I punch at your face?" My long fist teacher said, "Come and punch me."
> 
> I might be the only student who challenged the teacher during the 1st day of that informal class in the past 30 years. I believe even today, I still hold a record on that.
> 
> I was in the front row, the 5th from the right.


cool photo though your teacher looks like a badass


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 10, 2021)

obi_juan_salami said:


> cool photo though your teacher looks like a badass


He is 93 years old today and still in good health.

Grandmaster Li, Mao-Ching (李茂清)


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