# Question regarding MMA



## terryl965 (May 24, 2009)

What evactly is MMA, is it just a mixture or blends of different styles? If so then someone doing Karate and TKD along with Kempo would be consider a MMA person, or I am missing something here. Thanks for any and all replys ahead of time.


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## jarrod (May 24, 2009)

good question, & a big one too.  i think the most pragmatic answer is that MMA is a combat sport, one that generally requires proficiency at multiple arts.  sure, someone blending tkd & kenpo is training a variety of arts, but to call them an MMAist would be misleading.  

jf


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## terryl965 (May 24, 2009)

jarrod said:


> good question, & a big one too. i think the most pragmatic answer is that MMA is a combat sport, one that generally requires proficiency at multiple arts. sure, someone blending tkd & kenpo is training a variety of arts, but to call them an MMAist would be misleading.
> 
> jf


 
Why is that, if you do not mind expanding onthe previous post


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## myusername (May 24, 2009)

My novice interpretation of this is that MMA is a sport and "style" all of its own. Somebody may train various arts to enhance their performance within the MMA arena or just attend an MMA school.

Somebody who trains in various multiple martial arts but does not compete or attend a specific MMA school is cross training but not an MMA person.

I do Jujutsu and TKD and I consider this cross training and would not consider this MMA.


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## Andrew Green (May 24, 2009)

terryl965 said:


> What evactly is MMA, is it just a mixture or blends of different styles? If so then someone doing Karate and TKD along with Kempo would be consider a MMA person, or I am missing something here. Thanks for any and all replys ahead of time.



The early UFC's where promoted as "Mixed Martial Arts" competitions, in that they featured martial artists from different styles competing.

It didn't take long for the rules of the event to lead to what is essentially it's own style and the terms usage switched to that style.  While there is still a range in what different fighters specialize in and what there background is they still all do bascially the same sorts of techniques and train in similar ways for the same set of rules.

Karate, TKD and Kenpo does not suit that style as it is lacking in wrestling, submissions and Ground & pound training as well as the more general idea of training with all of those things allowed with a combat sport mentality behind it.


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## terryl965 (May 24, 2009)

Andrew Green said:


> The early UFC's where promoted as "Mixed Martial Arts" competitions, in that they featured martial artists from different styles competing.
> 
> It didn't take long for the rules of the event to lead to what is essentially it's own style and the terms usage switched to that style. While there is still a range in what different fighters specialize in and what there background is they still all do bascially the same sorts of techniques and train in similar ways for the same set of rules.
> 
> Karate, TKD and Kenpo does not suit that style as it is lacking in wrestling, submissions and Ground & pound training as well as the more general idea of training with all of those things allowed with a combat sport mentality behind it.


 
I understand what you are saying, but I do not understand what it is then, For me if you train in multiple discepline than you do MMA. I know it is not tha easy but it should be. How is MMA a style when they are just taken from various styles.


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## Andrew Green (May 24, 2009)

terryl965 said:


> I understand what you are saying, but I do not understand what it is then, For me if you train in multiple discepline than you do MMA. I know it is not tha easy but it should be. How is MMA a style when they are just taken from various styles.




I think you are putting too much emphasis on the literal meaning  of the words.

Or, in the same line of reasoning as your question, is anyone that practices a punching & kicking art doing Tae Kwon Do?  Or anyone that is practicing empty hand fighting doing Karate?


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## terryl965 (May 24, 2009)

Andrew Green said:


> I think you are putting too much emphasis on the literal meaning of the words.
> 
> Or, in the same line of reasoning as your question, is anyone that practices a punching & kicking art doing Tae Kwon Do? Or anyone that is practicing empty hand fighting doing Karate?


 
No I am not trying too. I was ask to teach a fighter here locally MMA and I told him what I do and how we train, now he wants some of his buddys to come train with me and says I should say I am teaching MMA and I am trying to figure out if it is right or not for me to do so. I hate to say something that is not true as you know Andrew.


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## LuckyKBoxer (May 24, 2009)

Ok.
Here is what I consider a fair definition of what MMA is.

MMA = Mixed Martial Arts.

Kajukenbo is an example of an art that was started based on mixing different martial arts into one.( I have never trained in Kajukenbo by the way... but the name itself is literally a mix of martial arts added together... KA - KArate.. JU - JUdo/JUjitsu.. KEN - KENpo.. BO - BOxing/Chinese BOxing kung fu.)

MMA is most popular and most well known for its sports aspect, which is displayed in its most famous venue of the UFC, and formerly PRIDE fighting competition. The sports aspects have rules, and are based on mixing the best of different martial arts techniques and aspects to cover the ranges of UNARMED hand to hand combat... which include

1. Out of range
2. Kicking and punching range
3. Clinch range
4. Takedown range
5. Grappling range

any person who trains in multiple martial arts is truely a Mixed Martial Artist, although they might train for Combat reasons, Academic reasons, or Sports reasons.
I think with the success of the Sports aspect of MMA it is virtually becoming its own Martial Art. The vast majority of people automatically assume that MMA means sports fighting, the funny thing is that the vast majority of non sports centered martial artists also attach this same meaning to the term MMA, and automatically assume that a MMA practitioner is not skilled enough to make his skills work in the street in a lethal encounter.

This is how I describe the term MMA to people who do not understand it, I would love to hear someone add to it, or describe it better for me.
 I might add if someone is inquiring about whether you teach MMA or not, I think simply finding out what their goals are, and being honest about what you do would answer their question for them. If they are simply looking for training to enter sports fighting, and you do not specifically teach that, I would recommend either hiring someone to do it, or pointing them elsewhere.
Thanks


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## Dave Leverich (May 24, 2009)

Terry, I'd say no. I started in TKD in 85, Tai Chi in 89, Escrima in 90/91, JKD in 98 etc, but it wasn't 'MMA' by todays standards. What it was, was me training in different styles but not together as ONE application. Although some of the footwork from FMA might show up in my TKD, or some of the circular movement from TC, it still wasn't one unified application.

I've trained MMA almost two years now. As I see it, the art has kickboxing range, boxing, stand-up grappling, and ground grappling (then also ground/pound). What arts you use in each aspect might vary but the overall combination is 'MMA'. 

Myself as an example; I use TKD and Muay Thai in my kickboxing bubble. Boxing with some JKD and others at hand range. Greco/Collegiate with bits of Judo at standing grappling range (good lord I wish I'd taken Judo when I had a chance years ago...), then wrestling and BJJ in ground grappling and wrestling/boxing in gnp.

While the name 'mixed martial arts' could connetate any blend of arts, what it's come to be accepted as is a very specic set of skills and approaches at each range. It's quickly become a defined sport and method of training in the last few years.


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## jks9199 (May 25, 2009)

Terry,
I wouldn't suggest claiming to teach MMA -- but if you've got the skill sets to do it, nothing says you can't coach people in how to use your TKD to compete in MMA events -- including coaching or leading conditioning and sparring workouts.

Too many people are opening MMA gyms up with incomplete training.  They've done a bit of boxing, a little wrestling/jujitsu, some TKD or muay thai for the kicks/knees...  and they don't really know what they're doing.  I personally feel I could coach someone, primarily in the stand-up and clinching, for MMA if they wanted to do it -- and have a line on folks to give them the grappling -- but I wouldn't hang my shingle as a MMA coach, either.  Lots of these guys out there are just riding the fad, like the ninja turtle kids programs that showed up in lots of very commercialized dojangs...


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## searcher (May 25, 2009)

IMO it is what the decided to call NHB.    It made it sound less dangersous and it appealed to a greater audience(like Congress).


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## Makalakumu (May 25, 2009)

The "Tao of Jeet Kun Do" sums up MMA IMO.  Yeah, there's more too it, but Bruce Lee was on to something.


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## Tez3 (May 25, 2009)

jks9199 said:


> Terry,
> I wouldn't suggest claiming to teach MMA -- but if you've got the skill sets to do it, nothing says you can't coach people in how to use your TKD to compete in MMA events -- including coaching or leading conditioning and sparring workouts.
> 
> Too many people are opening MMA gyms up with incomplete training. They've done a bit of boxing, a little wrestling/jujitsu, some TKD or muay thai for the kicks/knees... and they don't really know what they're doing. I personally feel I could coach someone, primarily in the stand-up and clinching, for MMA if they wanted to do it -- and have a line on folks to give them the grappling -- but I wouldn't hang my shingle as a MMA coach, either. Lots of these guys out there are just riding the fad, like the ninja turtle kids programs that showed up in lots of very commercialized dojangs...


 
This to me is spot on! Teaching MMA is as specialised as teaching any other art. To teach MMA correctly is to teach more than just kicking punching and takedowns, you have to teach tactics, fitness, nutrition. You teach them to corner people because it's good training for actually fighting,watching for opening, the way the opponant fights etc. It's in depth training and many people only see the kicking, punching, take downs etc and think its easy to teach.

Coaching people in your TKD though is an excellent idea, I know many fighters who have good TKD skills, Rosi Sexton who's fighting in the States next month is one.

In this country MMA means only one thing, fighting in the cage/ring. We are lucky in that being very small still we tend to pick up any 'commercial' gym that is offering MMA and saying they have fighters, one was exposed as a fraud last week. Impossible in a big country though.

We will send out fighters out to learn fom others if we can, they are off to Thailand again later this year to train MT.


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## terryl965 (May 25, 2009)

Remember I wa sasj to call it that but I am not. I will continue to train and get of these fighter into shape nut thar is all. <aybe one day I could expand and even help corner someone.


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## Tez3 (May 25, 2009)

terryl965 said:


> Remember I wa sasj to call it that but I am not. I will continue to train and get of these fighter into shape nut thar is all. <aybe one day I could expand and even help corner someone.


 

Cornering someone is very satisfying! You'd enjoy it.
the art of a corner is very underestimated!


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## jarrod (May 26, 2009)

terryl965 said:


> No I am not trying too. I was ask to teach a fighter here locally MMA and I told him what I do and how we train, now he wants some of his buddys to come train with me and says I should say I am teaching MMA and I am trying to figure out if it is right or not for me to do so. I hate to say something that is not true as you know Andrew.





terryl965 said:


> Why is that, if you do not mind expanding onthe previous post



hey terry, sorry it took me a while to come back to this.

while blending any martial arts might technically count as MMA, the term MMA is commonly understood to refer to a specific type of sport fighting.  while tkd & kempo would have some value to an MMA fighter, they are not commonly regarded as "core" MMA arts.  i think that to teach "MMA", someone should have either MMA competition experience themselves, or be qualified to instruct at one standing & one grappling art commonly seen in MMA.  just my opinion.

jf


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## terryl965 (May 26, 2009)

jarrod said:


> hey terry, sorry it took me a while to come back to this.
> 
> while blending any martial arts might technically count as MMA, the term MMA is commonly understood to refer to a specific type of sport fighting. while tkd & kempo would have some value to an MMA fighter, they are not commonly regarded as "core" MMA arts. i think that to teach "MMA", someone should have either MMA competition experience themselves, or be qualified to instruct at one standing & one grappling art commonly seen in MMA. just my opinion.
> 
> jf


 

I appreciate you getting back with me, I have told tem I will teach what I know to them but please do not tell people I teach MMA because I am a Karate and TKD guy. I sure do hope they understand that.


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## Sandwich (May 27, 2009)

Mixed Martial Arts is exactly what it sounds like. But in practice, things are a bit different. A mixed martial artist is going to be someone who is very well-rounded. Technically, if you train multiple martial arts, you're a mixed martial artist. But in reality, a mixed martial artists is going to have very solid striking skills, as well as very solid grappling skills.

The most common martial arts in MMA are Boxing, Muay Thai, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Wrestling, Judo, and Sambo. 

Muay Thai, and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is a very common combination.

Most professional Mixed Martial Artists train Muay Thai, BJJ, and Wrestling (and many even incorporate boxing).

Of course, there are always exceptions.


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## Tez3 (May 27, 2009)

Sandwich said:


> Mixed Martial Arts is exactly what it sounds like. But in practice, things are a bit different. A mixed martial artist is going to be someone who is very well-rounded. Technically, if you train multiple martial arts, you're a mixed martial artist. But in reality, a mixed martial artists is going to have very solid striking skills, as well as very solid grappling skills.
> 
> *The most common martial arts in MMA are Boxing, Muay Thai, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Wrestling, Judo, and Sambo*.
> 
> ...


 

You missed out karate, TKD and TSD.
Sambo is in itself a mixed martial art.


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## Sandwich (May 27, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> You missed out karate, TKD and TSD.
> Sambo is in itself a mixed martial art.



I don't think Karate, TKD, or TSD are very well represented (at least compared to styles like BJJ, Muay Thai, Wrestling, and Boxing), regardless of whether or not they deserve to be. Certainly there are some talented fighters who have trained these styles in the past, or still do (Machida, Liddell, Bas, Cung Le, etc).

I guess you could call Sambo a mixed martial art. It evolved from Judo and folk wrestling. Though of all the styles of sambo, only combat sambo incorporates striking. The thing is, mixed martial arts implies the mixing of multiple styles. And sambo is considered to be a single style. But you are right.


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## Tez3 (May 27, 2009)

Sandwich said:


> I don't think Karate, TKD, or TSD are very well represented (at least compared to styles like BJJ, Muay Thai, Wrestling, and Boxing), regardless of whether or not they deserve to be. Certainly there are some talented fighters who have trained these styles in the past, or still do (Machida, Liddell, Bas, Cung Le, etc).
> 
> I guess you could call Sambo a mixed martial art. It evolved from Judo and folk wrestling. Though of all the styles of sambo, only combat sambo incorporates striking. The thing is, mixed martial arts implies the mixing of multiple styles. And sambo is considered to be a single style. But you are right.


 

Most of our fighters come from a karate or TKD background so yes I would say those styles are well represented in MMA though maybe not in the UFC. Many of ours are also from a kickboxing _not_ MT background, they continue to compete in kickboxing  as well as MMA. Few if any of our fighters study wrestling it's probably even more of a minority sport than MMA is here, instructors are few and far between. Most wrestling here is what you'd call 'folk' wrestling ie Cumbrian,Cornish, Scottish etc.
A friend of mine competed in a Sombo (thats what it's called here) competition in the cage in Russia, won his first lost his second bout.


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## Sandwich (May 27, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Most of our fighters come from a karate or TKD background so yes I would say those styles are well represented in MMA though maybe not in the UFC. Many of ours are also from a kickboxing _not_ MT background, they continue to compete in kickboxing  as well as MMA. Few if any of our fighters study wrestling it's probably even more of a minority sport than MMA is here, instructors are few and far between. Most wrestling here is what you'd call 'folk' wrestling ie Cumbrian,Cornish, Scottish etc.
> A friend of mine competed in a Sombo (thats what it's called here) competition in the cage in Russia, won his first lost his second bout.



I meant at high competition level. I see few fighters who train those types of styles in promotions like the UFC, Affliction, Dream, StrikeForce, etc. Not to say that I don't see them at all. They're better represented in some of the smaller promotions like Cage Rage, King Of The Cage, etc.

And wrestling is a fairly strong constant at the top level, many people going as far as to say that it is the best base for a mixed martial artist. 

I don't want to give the impression that I am hostile with regards to some of these "TMA" (martial arts like Muay Thai, Boxing, Wrestling, Judo, are all TMA as well). On the contrary, I think that every martial art has its place. But my experience is that the martial arts that I listed in my first post are more popular in the major promotions, again, regardless of whether or not they should be.


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## Tez3 (May 27, 2009)

Sandwich said:


> *I meant at high competition level*. I see few fighters who train those types of styles in promotions like the UFC, Affliction, Dream, StrikeForce, etc. Not to say that I don't see them at all. They're better represented in some of the smaller promotions like Cage Rage, King Of The Cage, etc.
> 
> And wrestling is a fairly strong constant at the top level, many people going as far as to say that it is the best base for a mixed martial artist.
> 
> I don't want to give the impression that I am hostile with regards to some of these "TMA" (martial arts like Muay Thai, Boxing, Wrestling, Judo, are all TMA as well). On the contrary, I think that every martial art has its place. But my experience is that the martial arts that I listed in my first post are more popular in the major promotions, again, regardless of whether or not they should be.


 

I guess Micheal Bisping, Ian Freeman, Dan Hardy and a lot more Brits I could name who have fought in the UFC aren't high enough profile for you then.
I'm telling you what _our_ fighters do and you are telling me differently?

Karate and TKD as a core art is more common than you seem to think, even in your 'top level'. Bas Rutten's core art was TKD, he was 2nd Dan. I think you may want to have a closer look at some of the fighters.


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## Tez3 (May 27, 2009)

One of Ireland's top fighters...started with karate.
http://aisthebash.com/


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## Steve (May 27, 2009)

A lot of guys start in karate, TKD or whatever, Tez, but I wonder how many of them STILL actively train in those styles? I don't see Bisping on TUF taking his guys through kata, standing in a horse stance and chambering their punches. 

I know that in North America, it's rare. GSP didn't make the splash for Kyokushin because, by all accounts, he doesn't continue to train karate. He spars boxing and wrestling with the national Canadian teams, trains muay thai and BJJ. You'll still see the occasional spinning back kick, but for the most part the karate is fully integrated into an "MMA" style.

You seem to be taking this as a slight against UK MMA, but it's not... at least I don't think it's intended to be.

Edit to add, just regarding Bas Rutten, he was a 2nd degree BB in TKD and a 5th BB in Kyokushin Karate, and yet he was competing as a Thai Boxer by 20, with 15 professional fights. After that, he started competing in the pancrase tournaments, which was essentially Vale Tudo.  While he definitely took from all of his MA experience, I'm guessing that his training during his professional career bore very little resemblance to his TKD and Kyokushin training as a youngster.


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## Tez3 (May 27, 2009)

stevebjj said:


> A lot of guys start in karate, TKD or whatever, Tez, but I wonder how many of them STILL actively train in those styles? I don't see Bisping on TUF taking his guys through kata, standing in a horse stance and chambering their punches.
> 
> I know that in North America, it's rare. GSP didn't make the splash for Kyokushin because, by all accounts, he doesn't continue to train karate. He spars boxing and wrestling with the national Canadian teams, trains muay thai and BJJ. You'll still see the occasional spinning back kick, but for the most part the karate is fully integrated into an "MMA" style.
> 
> ...


 

Well it was slanted somewhat against the British fighters because I specifically said, so as not to confuse the issue, that *our *fighters do this or that and Sandwich came back with 'he meant  high competition level fighters' as if we didn't have any! I was trying to show the difference between the way MMA is 'played' here and in America only to be told, after I said we don't do the wrestling thing much, again that it's only at high level it's found, again making it seem as if we are second class.

TBH you shouldn't be able to differentiate stand up styles too much in MMA, because, guess what it's *mixed* martial arts, we mix it up to make it work!


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## dancingalone (May 27, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> TBH you shouldn't be able to differentiate stand up styles too much in MMA, because, guess what it's *mixed* martial arts, we mix it up to make it work!



Hence why Machida seems to be growing in popularity among traditional martial artists.  His fighting style in the UFC octagon has noticeable karate elements within it.


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## Tez3 (May 27, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> Hence why Machida seems to be growing in popularity among traditional martial artists. His fighting style in the UFC octagon has noticeable karate elements within it.


 
To karateka lol the non martial arts fans won't notice the difference.


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## dancingalone (May 27, 2009)

Granted, but that's the case with anything.  More knowledge inevitably leans to a more discerning eye.


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## Tez3 (May 27, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> Granted, but that's the case with anything. More knowledge inevitably leans to a more discerning eye.


 
I wonder if we all tend to pick out our core art when watching MMA?


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## Andrew Green (May 27, 2009)

There really is two pieces to training, what you train, and what you train against.

Machida trains to use what he does against trained full contact fighters, not just guys "pretending" to be full contact fighters for a one-step, but in a ring against guys that are full-contact fighters and are really trying to use those skills on him.

This is what separates him from 90% of the traditional karate schools out there, they train to fight other karate fighters, under karate rules.

There aren't a lot of people that can do what Machida does, because it requires heavy cross-training.  You can't often learn how to fight a kickboxer or a wrestler in a Karate Dojo because there are no kickboxers or wrestlers there using kickboxing or wrestling in sparring there.

It's certainley not the first time someone with a unique background has popped up in MMA and taken everyone by surprise, I suspect that with time elements of what he does will be picked up by others, and other fighters will learn to deal with that sort of fighter as has happened in the past.

But I think the real lesson is that training methods matter, and matter a lot.  Probably much more so then what "style"


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## dancingalone (May 27, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> I wonder if we all tend to pick out our core art when watching MMA?



I think it's only human to look for similarities when encountering new things.  Machida's success is validation for karate-ka who want their art to have a better reputation among the MMA rank-and-file.  You only have to read forums like sherdog to know karate is unrespected by many MMA fans.


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## punisher73 (May 27, 2009)

terryl965 said:


> What evactly is MMA, is it just a mixture or blends of different styles? If so then someone doing Karate and TKD along with Kempo would be consider a MMA person, or I am missing something here. Thanks for any and all replys ahead of time.


 

I would just call that "cross training".  While yes, technically you do have a "mixed martial art", that term is used to apply to a specific sport and context to designate the approach used by athletes in competitions.  The term MMA is used to represent the style that the athlete uses.  It is based on punching, kicking, clinch, takedown, grappling.  In the US, most people think of MMA as a blend of Muay Thai, BJJ, Boxing and Wrestling.  Although as Tez pointed out there are other styles represented as well.  

The other argument I always hear is that MMA=JKD & JKD=MMA.  That somehow if you mix your arts and crosstrain, you are now doing Jeet Kune Do.  This is insulting to other arts that do have other elements added before either of those were popular (Kajukenbo comes to mind).  MMA is a skill set (sport) based on a specific set of rules, and depending on where you compete the skills seen will reflect that rule set.  For example, in the US the two competitions that most are familiar with are the UFC and PrideFC (no longer exists).  The UFC uses an octangonal cage, and Pride used a boxing ring.  The strategies and techniques you saw in each of those reflected those venues.  For example, in the UFC alot of strategy is spent on putting your opponent into the cage and holding them their to limit mobility.  In Pride if you got caught in the ropes, the action was stopped and moved to the center of the ring, so you didn't see strategy revolving around that.  Also, kicks/elbows/etc. were different in each competition so fighter's used them a little bit differently.  In the UFC it is very common to see fighter's using elbows on the ground trying to cut the opponent and get a win via ref stoppage.  In Pride elbows to the head and face were illegal.

The reason for the REALLY long answer is find out what the potential student wants when they ask for MMA.  Do they just mean a mix of different arts to give them a more well rounded curriculum (crosstraining), or do they mean the sport of MMA?  

In my opinion crosstraining does not make you an MMA fighter.


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## Steve (May 27, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> I think it's only human to look for similarities when encountering new things. Machida's success is validation for karate-ka who want their art to have a better reputation among the MMA rank-and-file. You only have to read forums like sherdog to know karate is unrespected by many MMA fans.


I've never read sherdog regularly, but on another well known site that I don't think is well liked here, styles like Kyokushin aren't disrespected, and while they are biased against certain styles as being rife with bullshido (such as WC, Ninjutsu and TKD), there are TMA guys who train hard in those styles and get along fine there.

Point is, I think it's easy to talk about the MMA rank and file, but that's a potentially misleading as sweeping generalizations about a particular style.


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## Steve (May 27, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Well it was slanted somewhat against the British fighters because I specifically said, so as not to confuse the issue, that *our *fighters do this or that and Sandwich came back with 'he meant high competition level fighters' as if we didn't have any! I was trying to show the difference between the way MMA is 'played' here and in America only to be told, after I said we don't do the wrestling thing much, again that it's only at high level it's found, again making it seem as if we are second class.
> 
> TBH you shouldn't be able to differentiate stand up styles too much in MMA, because, guess what it's *mixed* martial arts, we mix it up to make it work!


Bisping's not high level...  is he? 

Just kidding!


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## Steve (May 27, 2009)

Andrew Green said:


> But I think the real lesson is that training methods matter, and matter a lot. Probably much more so then what "style"


EXACTLY!!!  I have said this so many times I've stopped bothering.  

Regarding whether people other than karateka can discern the karate in Machida's style, I'd say more than you think.  There is a solid base of knowledgeable fans who know what MMA fighters typically do in the ring within a fairly broad range.  Wrestlers, strikers, luchadors or whatever.  Machida's approach is distinct.


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## Sandwich (May 28, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Well it was slanted somewhat against the British fighters because I specifically said, so as not to confuse the issue, that *our *fighters do this or that and Sandwich came back with 'he meant  high competition level fighters' as if we didn't have any! I was trying to show the difference between the way MMA is 'played' here and in America only to be told, after I said we don't do the wrestling thing much, again that it's only at high level it's found, again making it seem as if we are second class.
> 
> TBH you shouldn't be able to differentiate stand up styles too much in MMA, because, guess what it's *mixed* martial arts, we mix it up to make it work!



I wasn't trying to imply that "TMA" don't exist at a high level in MMA, or even that they are ineffective. In fact, if you look at my old posts, you'll notice that I specifically said that there were talented mixed martial artists who train these styles at a high level.

However, I stand by what I said. Even if you and I can name talented mixed martial artists who train "TMA", they're still outnumbered by mixed martial artists who train some of the styles that I mentioned previously.


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## Tez3 (May 28, 2009)

Sandwich said:


> I wasn't trying to imply that "TMA" don't exist at a high level in MMA, or even that they are ineffective. In fact, if you look at my old posts, you'll notice that I specifically said that there were talented mixed martial artists who train these styles at a high level.
> 
> However, I stand by what I said. Even if you and I can name talented mixed martial artists who train "TMA", they're still outnumbered by mixed martial artists who train some of the styles that I mentioned previously.


 
But all the styles MMA fighters train are TMAs, none of the styles are new to us! BJJ has been around a very long time as has MT. Even MMA is old dating back to early Greek times. There's nothing new under the sun.


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## Sandwich (May 28, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> But all the styles MMA fighters train are TMAs, none of the styles are new to us! BJJ has been around a very long time as has MT. Even MMA is old dating back to early Greek times. There's nothing new under the sun.



Yeah, that's why I put TMA in quotes in my last post. A lot of people seem to use it to describe east asian martial arts. When in reality, most martial arts in use today have very interesting histories. Of course there are a couple that haven't been around for quite as long. Sambo, Krav Maga, TKD etc which have "only" been around for 60-70 years-ish.


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## Steve (May 29, 2009)

Sandwich said:


> Yeah, that's why I put TMA in quotes in my last post. A lot of people seem to use it to describe east asian martial arts. When in reality, most martial arts in use today have very interesting histories. Of course there are a couple that haven't been around for quite as long. Sambo, Krav Maga, TKD etc which have "only" been around for 60-70 years-ish.


Actually, most of the TMAs that people train have been around for less than 150 years.  Judo was developed in the late 1800s.  Shotokan Karate is... what... early 1900's?  BJJ was early 1900's.  

They all have roots, but the contemporary iterations of these styles are almost all relatively young.


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