# Why do katas dictate to have the rear foot planted for tsuki (straight punch)?



## Acronym (Sep 9, 2020)

It makes no sense for weight transfer not not raise it like you do in free sparring.

What is the purposes of ingraining this body mechanic? It seems anti mechanical...


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## jobo (Sep 9, 2020)

Acronym said:


> It makes no sense for weight transfer not not raise it like you do in free sparring.
> 
> What is the purposes of ingraining this body mechanic? It seems anti mechanical...


you want both feet planted when you punch or neither if you using forward movement, if you raising it durring sparring you doibg it wrong


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## Acronym (Sep 9, 2020)

jobo said:


> you want both feet planted when you punch or neither if you using forward movement, if you raising it durring sparring you doibg it wrong




No, this is with regards to during point of impact. Not when initiating it.


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## Acronym (Sep 9, 2020)

Note that I'm referring to during point of impact.

In my TKD encyclopedia for forms punching, it states that the rear foot you be planted when making contact, which makes no sense if you move and punch.

I'm guessing that's borrowed from Karate forms.


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## Acronym (Sep 9, 2020)




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## Acronym (Sep 9, 2020)

,


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## Acronym (Sep 9, 2020)

Rear foot always off the floor during impact


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## Acronym (Sep 9, 2020)

Yet in Katas, the rear foot is planted when your punch is extended.


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## Headhunter (Sep 9, 2020)




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## wab25 (Sep 9, 2020)

So first off... from point number 10, that you circled above.... "to contain the rebound." The idea is to teach rooting. When you hit the other guys face, his face hits your hand. If you are on ice, you slide back at the impact and don't effect the other guy as much as you would if you feet were bolted to a very large, immovable rock. 

In boxing, they teach you to "sit down on your punches" for more power and harder hits. What that means is that the boxer will bend his knees more, and get a better connection with the ground. This makes the boxer less mobile, but makes his hits harder. One of the things I suspect is that they are over emphasizing this in kata, so that you will root better when fighting... even though you are not going to fully put your heel down.

In Karate (I study Shotokan, not TKD...) I believe they are also trying to teach other things. One is to generate power in other ways. By making that heel stay flat, they are taking out the calf and quad muscles from generating power. To generate your power now, you must move your center. You move it forward such that when you hit, your body connects the punching arm, to the straight leg that is rooted to deliver the power. Also, you are dropping your weight to generate more power. Once you understand the structure you can combine the body movement forward and down, with the structure and then add in the quads and calf muscles... all working together for a very hard hit.

Also... the tsuki is not always a punch... it may be a punch or a push or a lock or a throw or... many other things, depending on the situation. Some of these other situations, may need the heel down for better rooting. The heel being down is an indicator that there may be more going on here than simply a punch.


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## Acronym (Sep 9, 2020)

wab25 said:


> So first off... from point number 10, that you circled above.... "to contain the rebound." The idea is to teach rooting. When you hit the other guys face, his face hits your hand. If you are on ice, you slide back at the impact and don't effect the other guy as much as you would if you feet were bolted to a very large, immovable rock.
> 
> In boxing, they teach you to "sit down on your punches" for more power and harder hits. What that means is that the boxer will bend his knees more, and get a better connection with the ground. This makes the boxer less mobile, but makes his hits harder. One of the things I suspect is that they are over emphasizing this in kata, so that you will root better when fighting... even though you are not going to fully put your heel down.
> 
> ...



But as I showed in the clip, Karetakas have their rear foot off the floor just like boxers, when they actually fight. It's only in katas it's put down.


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## O'Malley (Sep 9, 2020)

The clip is a light-contact competition clip, the movement (and the intention behind it) may be different from the one in the kata.


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## Acronym (Sep 9, 2020)

O'Malley said:


> The clip is a light-contact competition clip, the movement (and the intention behind it) may be different from the one in the kata.



That's my point. Why is there this dogmatic insistence on the rear foot planted in kata, even though everybody, including Karatekas, have it off the floor when actually applying techniques?


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## Acronym (Sep 9, 2020)

I am not creating the thread to argue one over the other since Karatekas themselves have the good sense to ignore the kata mechanics. My only purposes of this thread is to ask Why?

Is it simply bad mechanics passed on before people free sparred and later realised that this does not make sense (rear foot should be lifted when striking the punch, not planted firmly).


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 9, 2020)

Acronym said:


> It makes no sense for weight transfer not not raise it like you do in free sparring.
> 
> What is the purposes of ingraining this body mechanic? It seems anti mechanical...


During the

- beginner training (static punch) stage, you want to borrow the counter force from the ground. your back leg is connected on the ground. Your punch coordinate with your back foot straight.
- advance training (dynamic punch) stage, you want to move your body forward and cover distance, your back foot will no longer connect on the ground. Your punch coordinate with your front foot landing.

Should one skip the beginner training (static punch) stage, IMO, that's not a good idea.


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## Acronym (Sep 9, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> During the
> 
> - beginner training (static punch) stage, you want to borrow the counter force from the ground. your back leg is connected on the ground.
> - advance training (dynamic punch) stage, you want to move your body forward and cover distance, your back foot will no longer connect on the ground.
> ...



That can't be the answer since higher kata belts have the same mechanics


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## wab25 (Sep 9, 2020)

Acronym said:


> But as I showed in the clip, Karetakas have their rear foot off the floor just like boxers, when they actually fight. It's only in katas it's put down.


I covered this...



wab25 said:


> One of the things I suspect is that *they are over emphasizing this in kata, so that you will root better when fighting*... even though you are not going to fully put your heel down.


 Added bold this time. Why do boxers jump rope? You never see them jumping rope in a fight. They never even jump in a fight... They are over emphasizing certain things, to develop power and speed so that they can use those skills that they learned jumping rope, in the ring... even if it looks different. 

Also... the karate "step forward with straight punch" in kata... can have different meanings. That could be an arm bar take down, a hip throw, a wedge throw, a push... or many other things, in addition to being a punch.



Acronym said:


> That can't be the answer since higher kata belts have the same mechanics


World Champion Boxers still jump rope.


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## O'Malley (Sep 9, 2020)

Acronym said:


> That's my point. Why is there this dogmatic insistence on the rear foot planted in kata, even though everybody, including Karatekas, have it off the floor when actually applying techniques?



The tsuki in kata and the tsuki in competition may have different goals. See wab25's posts.


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## Acronym (Sep 9, 2020)

wab25 said:


> I covered this...
> 
> 
> Added bold this time. Why do boxers jump rope? You never see them jumping rope in a fight. They never even jump in a fight... They are over emphasizing certain things, to develop power and speed so that they can use those skills that they learned jumping rope, in the ring... even if it looks different.
> ...



Jumping rope is not a striking technique


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 9, 2020)

Acronym said:


> That can't be the answer since higher kata belts have the same mechanics


If the form creator didn't include "dynamic punch - hop in leading foot, back foot slide forward" in his created form, to coordinate punch with leading foot landing cannot be trained.

The moment that you concentrate on how to coordinate your punch with your leading foot landing, the moment that you will take your mind away from your back foot ground connection. Your back foot then will slide along the ground when your body is moving forward.

So to switch from

- coordinate punch with back leg straight, to
- coordinate punch with leading foot landing,

is the critical training progress.


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## Headhunter (Sep 9, 2020)

The better question is are you ever going to make a thread that isn’t you talking crap about something a style does?


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## Acronym (Sep 9, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If the form creator didn't include "dynamic punch" in his created form, to coordinate punch with leading foot landing cannot be trained.
> 
> The moment that you concentrate on how to coordinate your punch with your leading foot landing, the moment that you will take your mind away from your back foot ground connection. Your back foot then will slide along the ground when your body is moving forward.
> 
> ...



Why would he not intend dynamic punching in a system created for self defense? And btw, in boxing, you do have the rear foot lifted on impact regardless if you're shadow boxing or sparring.


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## wab25 (Sep 9, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Jumping rope is not a striking technique


The tsuki thrown in Karate Kata is not a striking technique.

The tsuki thrown in Karate Kata, is a Kata technique. It is put into the kata to train certain principles. Funakoshi (the creator of Shotokan) explains this very well...

Gichin Funakoshi’s Twenty Guiding Principles of Karate
"Kamae (ready stance) is for beginners; later, one stands in shizentai (natural stance)"

"Perform kata exactly; actual combat is another matter"

Just like jumping rope is not striking... jumping rope is another matter.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 9, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Why would he not intend dynamic punching in a system created for self defense? And btw, in boxing, you do have the rear foot lifted regardless if you're shadow boxing or sparring. The rear foot is never planted on impact unless you punch moving backwards


The issue is if one skips the static punch training, he won't be able to understand power generation - borrow counter force from the ground.

Do you know any Karate form that has the dynamic punch - front foot hop forward, back foot follow and slide?

IMO, even if the dynamic punch may not be in your Karate form. You can still train your Karate form in 2 different ways:

1. static punch, or
2. dynamic punch.


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## Acronym (Sep 9, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Do you know any Karate form that has the dynamic punch - front foot hop forward, back foot slide?



But that’s irrelevant. There is no drawback to have the rear foot lifted on impact even if you train static punching. It does not undermine your form. The only difference is that you are doing forms of punching in a logical way...


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 9, 2020)

Acronym said:


> But that’s irrelevant. There is no drawback to have the rear foot lifted on impact even if you train static punching. It does not undermine your form. The only difference is that you are doing forms of punching in a logical way...


You can only coordinate your punch with your

1. back leg straight, or
2. leading foot landing.

You can't do both on the same punch. For each and every punch that you have in your form, you can do some punches as static punch, and do some punches as dynamic punch.

Do you know whether the dynamic punch is in Karate form training or not?


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## Acronym (Sep 9, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You can only coordinate your punch with your
> 
> 1. back leg straight, or
> 2. leading foot landing.
> ...



Let's stick to moving forward tsukis. You can move forward in a kata and lift the rear foot, or you can keep it down.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 9, 2020)

Headhunter said:


>


Why even get involved?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 9, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Let's stick to moving forward tsukis. You can move forward in a kata and keep the rear foot up on impact , or you can put it down.


When you move forward, you can't advance your leading foot without advance your back foot. When your back foot is also advanced, your back foot cannot connect on the ground.

Let me ask you this simple question.

Do you coordinate your punch with your

1. back leg straight (the moment that your back leg move from bend to straight, the moment that your punch land), or
2. leading foot landing (the moment your front foot touches on the ground, the moment your punch land)?


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## Acronym (Sep 9, 2020)

[


Kung Fu Wang said:


> Let me ask you this simple question.
> 
> Do you coordinate your punch with your
> 
> ...



I don't comprehend that dichotomy. How does having the supporting leg planted as opposed to lifted  affect whether you are a doing a static punch or not? You are still moving forward and extending an arm.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 9, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You can only coordinate your punch with your
> 
> 1. back leg straight, or
> 2. leading foot landing.
> ...


You can move to whatever extent is needed, and then root for the brief duration of the punch.  And then move some more.  It’s about doing what you need to do, when you need to do it.  Adapting to what is needed and what is appropriate.

But, rooting the heel down and using that brace against the ground to rotate the torso is definitely a good way to deliver a very powerful punch.  You do that when you need to kill or injure someone.  I assume that in sparring you don’t want to kill or injure someone.  Sparring is a friendly interaction, even when done “full contact”.  So you apply it differently.  Sparring is not the yardstick with which to measure all things.


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## Acronym (Sep 9, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> You can move to whatever extent is needed, and then root for the brief duration of the punch.  And then move some more.  It’s about doing what you need to do, when you need to do it.  Adapting to what is needed and what is appropriate.
> 
> But, rooting the heel down and using that brace against the ground to rotate the torso is definitely a good way to deliver a very powerful punch.  You do that when you need to kill or injure someone.  I assume that in sparring you don’t want to kill or injure someone.  Sparring is a friendly interaction, even when done “full contact”.  So you apply it differently.  Sparring is not the yardstick with which to measure all things.



Lifting the rear leg and leaning forward was shown to create a 30% more powerful punch. But I guess the 30% less powerful punch is more deadly.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 9, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I don't comprehend that dichotomy. How does having the supporting leg planted as opposed to lifted  affect whether you are a doing a static punch or not? You are still moving forward and extending an arm.


After you have borrowed the counter force from the ground, your power has been generated through your back leg, to your hip, body, shoulder, arm, .... you no longer need your back foot to connect on the ground. You can raise your leg up in golden rooster stance if you want to (if that can let you to have the maximum reach).


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## Acronym (Sep 9, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> After you have borrowed the counter force from the ground, your power has been generated through your back leg, to your hip, body, shoulder, arm, .... you no longer need your back foot to connect on the ground. You can raise your leg up in golden rooster stance if you want to (if that can let you to have maximum reach).



So... Why doesn't anybody punch that way when they  free spar?  You wrote yourself that it's more geared towards beginners


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## wab25 (Sep 9, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Lifting the rear leg and leaning forward was shown to create a 30% more powerful punch.


Lifting the rear leg and leaning forward has been shown to create a 100% less effective arm bar take down. Also makes a very less effective push. 

If you are only concerned with punching... study boxing.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 9, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Lifting the rear leg and leaning forward was shown to create a 30% more powerful punch. But I guess the 30% less powerful punch is more deadly.


I disagree with that 30% assessment.

My point is, things can develop differently for different purposes.  Sparring isn’t the yardstick against which to measure the validity of all things.


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## Acronym (Sep 9, 2020)

wab25 said:


> Lifting the rear leg and leaning forward has been shown to create a 100% less effective arm bar take down. Also makes a very less effective push.
> 
> If you are only concerned with punching... study boxing.



Even accepting your premise of pulling with the other arm. In what situation would you be able to pull a non complient opponents arm towards you?

And even if you achieve this hulk like feat, what prevents him from punching through your non existent guard with the other hand, right in your face?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 9, 2020)

Acronym said:


> So... Why doesn't anybody punch that way when they  free spar?  You wrote yourself that it's more geared towards beginners


In one sparring, my punch was still far away from my opponent's face. I raised up my back foot (change from bow-arrow stance into golden rooster stance), my fist still could not reach to my opponent's face. I landed my back foot behind my leading foot (change from golden rooster stance into stealing step), my fist finally landed on my opponent's face.

Whether you keep your back foot on the ground, slide, raise it up, or land forward, it all depends on the distance that you intend to reach. That's why we train so many different stances. Each stance can give you different reach distance.

This monkey stance can give you more reach than your bow-arrow stance.







This golden rooster stance can give you even more reach than your monkey stance.


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## Acronym (Sep 9, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In one sparring, my punch is still far away from my opponent's face. I raise up my back foot (change from bow-arrow stance into golden rooster stance), my fist still could not reach to my opponent's face. I land my back foot behind my leading foot (change from golden rooster stance into stealing step), my fist finally landed on my opponent's face.
> 
> Whether you keep your back foot on the ground, slide, raise it up, or land forward, it all depends on the distance that you intend to reach. That's why we train so many different stances. Each stance can give you different reach distance.



Even close range, it's illogical throwing a right hand from an orthodox stance with the rear foot planted. You won't do that naturally.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 9, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Even close range, it's illogical throwing a right hand with the rear foot planted. You won't do that naturally.


If I don't need to move my back foot, I want my back foot to connect to the ground. That can give me the strongest body structure. That can help me to generate the maximum power.


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## wab25 (Sep 9, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Even accepting your premise of pulling with the other arm. In what situation would you be able to pull a non complient opponents arm towards you?
> 
> And even if you achieve this hulk like feat, what prevents him from punching through your non existent guard with the other hand, right in your face?


So, if its that hard to do on both of your feet, in a strong stance... How much harder would it be to do that, standing on one foot?

Baseball players go to the on deck circle, and put a weight on their bat and start swinging it. Why? The weight only slows down the bat. You never see a batter in the box waiting for a pitch, with a weight on their bat. I have never seen a home run hit by a bat with a weight still on it. Why are they so stupid... putting weights on their bats? Maybe you should go help them stop that as well.


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## Acronym (Sep 9, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If I don't need to move my back foot, I want my back foot to connect to the ground. That can give me the strongest body structure. That can help me to generate the maximum power.



This is wrong. To achieve real power you need to rotate and lift the rear foot. This creates a weight shift.

Try pushing someone back with both your feet planted on the ground compared to with your supporting foots heal lifted. It's the same Principle.


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## Acronym (Sep 9, 2020)

wab25 said:


> So, if its that hard to do on both of your feet, in a strong stance... How much harder would it be to do that, standing on one foot?
> 
> l.



You are still standing on both feet, but lifting the supporting foot up. And no it won't work that wya either because the entire method is unrealistic


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## Flying Crane (Sep 9, 2020)

Acronym said:


> This is wrong. To achieve real power you need to rotate and lift the rear foot. This creates a weight shift.
> 
> Try pushing someone back with both your feet planted on the ground compared to with your supporting foots heal lifted. It's the same Principle.


So if you have all the answers, why do you need to start a thread like this?  You aren’t looking for any real input from anyone.  You aren’t open to it.  You just like to tell everyone you are right.  

So go ahead, do what you want.  What any of us might have to say is clearly meaningless to you.  Why bother pretending to want to “discuss” it?  Your ego isn’t interested anyways.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 9, 2020)

Acronym said:


> You are still standing on both feet, but lifting the supporting foot up. And no it won't work that wya either because the entire method is unrealistic


Well no, the real answer is that you are unable to do it.  What others can do is unrelated to your limitations.


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## punisher73 (Sep 9, 2020)

Acronym said:


> But that’s irrelevant. There is no drawback to have the rear foot lifted on impact even if you train static punching. It does not undermine your form. The only difference is that you are doing forms of punching in a logical way...



Kata trains multiple ideas and ingrains them into one "motion".  You are focusing on just a straight forward punch and lifting the heel to get a bit more drive and distance with the punch.  Look at the motion in the kata, most of the time you are chambering the opposite hand to the hip.  If you now imagine that you are pulling your attacker into your technique, then you want the heel on the ground to give more stability.  You are now using collisional energy in the punch by pulling them in as you accelerate forward with your punch, different type of "strike" and energy than just thrusting forward with a single punch, as a boxer would.  

Also, the stance as the picture pointed out is to handle returning or incoming force.  The back leg with the heel on the ground is training you to be able to brace against an incoming force.  Try a simple experiment, get in your "finished position" with your heel up and have a partner push you back.  The heel goes back and down and it is easy to continue that backwards motion.  Do the same thing with the heel on the ground and you can brace for more force pushing against you.  If you want to get REALLY technical, the body's proprioception is set up that neurological when we are on the ball it signals muscles and pathways for mobility.  When we use the heel, it signals muscles and pathways for stability.   

So, to answer your question, the heel on the ground is training you to brace against an incoming force as well as using collisional force in a technique, among other things.


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## Acronym (Sep 10, 2020)

punisher73 said:


> Kata trains multiple ideas and ingrains them into one "motion".  You are focusing on just a straight forward punch and lifting the heel to get a bit more drive and distance with the punch.  Look at the motion in the kata, most of the time you are chambering the opposite hand to the hip.  If you now imagine that you are pulling your attacker into your technique, then you want the heel on the ground to give more stability.  You are now using collisional energy in the punch by pulling them in as you accelerate forward with your punch, different type of "strike" and energy than just thrusting forward with a single punch, as a boxer would.
> 
> Also, the stance as the picture pointed out is to handle returning or incoming force.  The back leg with the heel on the ground is training you to be able to brace against an incoming force.  Try a simple experiment, get in your "finished position" with your heel up and have a partner push you back.  The heel goes back and down and it is easy to continue that backwards motion.  Do the same thing with the heel on the ground and you can brace for more force pushing against you.  If you want to get REALLY technical, the body's proprioception is set up that neurological when we are on the ball it signals muscles and pathways for mobility.  When we use the heel, it signals muscles and pathways for stability.
> 
> So, to answer your question, the heel on the ground is training you to brace against an incoming force as well as using collisional force in a technique, among other things.



Why isn't arm pulling allowed then in kumite, or applied in bunkai


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## Acronym (Sep 10, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Well no, the real answer is that you are unable to do it.  What others can do is unrelated to your limitations.



Welcome to ignore


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## wab25 (Sep 10, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Why isn't arm pulling allowed then in kumite, or applied in bunkai


I use it all the time in kumite. I use it even more in bunkai. Its quite effective in a number of different ways.


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## jobo (Sep 10, 2020)

Acronym said:


> View attachment 23139


well yes you can thank isac newton for that, all forces being equal and opersite,

any force you impart that moves you opoinent backwads will also move you backward unless you brace against it

you cant do that standing on one leg,  boxers tend to plant both feet at least momentarily,  when throwing  power punches. over reaching, with forward momentum is a good way to get knocked out, as now his punch is vastly assisted by your forward momentum

if your point sparing where speed is everything and power is meaningless, then different mechanics are optimal to trying to take someones head off


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## Acronym (Sep 10, 2020)

jobo said:


> well yes you can thank isac newton for that, all forces being equal and opersite,
> 
> any force you impart that moves you opoinent backwads will also move you backward unless you brace against it
> 
> ...



But the supporting heel is up, not down, during impact. that's what I'm referring to by planting


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## Acronym (Sep 10, 2020)

wab25 said:


> I use it all the time in kumite. I use it even more in bunkai. Its quite effective in a number of different ways.



And your back footd heel is down or up at impact? I bet you it's up


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## wab25 (Sep 10, 2020)

Acronym said:


> And your back footd heel is down or up at impact? I bet you it's up


You would be right... some times. Most of the time you would be wrong. Heck, most of the time there is no impact when I do it... I am a Jujitsu guy studying Shotokan as s second art. I also study what the founder taught about his art... These kata techniques have throwing and grappling applications as well as striking. But I also like pulling the guy into my strike, with the heel down as explained prior.


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## jobo (Sep 10, 2020)

Acronym said:


> But the supporting heel is up, not down, during impact. that's what I'm referring to by planting


no not generaly, it depends on the range and if you need another two inches to hit the target or not, 

your making up hard and fast rules that dont exist, you need to be planted to develop most power, heel down is best, heel up if that the best you can manage,


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 10, 2020)

Acronym said:


> View attachment 23139


That seems to contain the answer. There's no impact, so the leg is planted to keep the punch from off-balancing you. Punching without a target to hit is always going to require some mechanical compromises.


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## Acronym (Sep 10, 2020)

jobo said:


> no not generaly, it depends on the range and if you need another two inches to hit the target or not,
> 
> your making up hard and fast rules that dont exist, you need to be planted to develop most power, heel down is best, heel up if that the best you can manage,



No it is not. No one who boxes keeps the back foot heal down on impact


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## Acronym (Sep 10, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> That seems to contain the answer. There's no impact, so the leg is planted to keep the punch from off-balancing you. Punching without a target to hit is always going to require some mechanical compromises.



Ok this is not my native language. Why does it only say "planted firmly" leaving out "on the ground"?


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 10, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Even accepting your premise of pulling with the other arm. In what situation would you be able to pull a non complient opponents arm towards you?


When he's off-balance.



> And even if you achieve this hulk like feat, what prevents him from punching through your non existent guard with the other hand, right in your face?


By being on the outside of his arm.

Not sure what either of those questions has to do with your original point, though.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 10, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Why isn't arm pulling allowed then in kumite, or applied in bunkai


I don't look at much bunkai video (since I don't train these kata), but even I have seen examples of bunkai with that arm pulling.


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## Acronym (Sep 10, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> When he's off-balance.
> 
> 
> .



Why would you pull someone in who's off balance? 



gpseymour said:


> By being on the outside of his arm.



So you both pull him in and side step? That sounds very contrived.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 10, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Ok this is not my native language. Why does it only say "planted firmly" leaving out "on the ground"?


Most likely because folks would assume that phrase - where else would it be planted, in that context?


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## Acronym (Sep 10, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> I don't look at much bunkai video (since I don't train these kata), but even I have seen examples of bunkai with that arm pulling.



There's some collar grabs.


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## Acronym (Sep 10, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Most likely because folks would assume that phrase - where else would it be planted, in that context?



You don't need to assume anything if it is written out plainly. That sentence is not following conventional structures by leaving "on the ground" even if everybody reading it gets it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 10, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Why would you pull someone in who's off balance?
> 
> 
> 
> So you both pull him in and side step? That sounds very contrived.


I think you're imagining a specific scenario. Wrestlers pull and step to the side all the time. Judoka do it less often (they seem to prefer to stay close to the center in most cases).


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 10, 2020)

Acronym said:


> You don't need to assume anything if it is written out plainly. That sentence is not following conventional structures by leaving "on the ground" even if everybody reading it gets it.


Actually, that omission is pretty conventional.


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## Acronym (Sep 10, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> I think you're imagining a specific scenario. Wrestlers pull and step to the side all the time. Judoka do it less often (they seem to prefer to stay close to the center in most cases).



Yes I am imagining the scenario pertaining to Karate, since this pull-in is not a wrestling maneuver. Wrestlers use both their hands, or they have one of the hands already inside.


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## Acronym (Sep 10, 2020)

And even if they do (they don't), wrestlers don’t strike each other.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 10, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Yes I am imagining the scenario pertaining to Karate, since this pull-in is not a wrestling maneuver. Wrestlers use both their hands, or they have one of the hands already inside.


Which specific scenario, though? Karate doesn't produce the scenario - it responds to it (in theory).

As for the pull, it need not be a huge movement of their arm (again, this is what I think you're imagining). When a boxer pats down a guard, that (if you remove the gloves) could also be a quick pull.


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## Acronym (Sep 10, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Which specific scenario, though? Karate doesn't produce the scenario - it responds to it (in theory).
> 
> As for the pull, it need not be a huge movement of their arm (again, this is what I think you're imagining). When a boxer pats down a guard, that (if you remove the gloves) could also be a quick pull.



Kumite isn't a good test of its validity though since there's double tagging going on there all the time, which is precisely what you pulling the arm does not want in an actual fight where you punch to knock each other out.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 10, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Kumite isn't a good test of its validity though since there's double tagging going on there all the time, which is precisely what you pulling the arm does not want in an actual fight where you punch to knock each other out.


Not every punch in a "real fight" has to be a KO attempt. Just as a boxer (who would also really like to KO the other guy) will use other punches to try to set up a KO.


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## jobo (Sep 10, 2020)

Acronym said:


> No it is not. No one who boxes keeps the back foot heal down on impact


no one, ??? so one vid showing boxer doing such and youl admit you are wrong ?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 10, 2020)

Acronym said:


> But the supporting heel is up, not down, during impact. that's what I'm referring to by planting


The heel up stance is not only used in boxing. Many MA systems emphasize this heel up punching posture such as the praying mantis.

Advantage:

- Mobility.
- longer reach.


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## Acronym (Sep 10, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


>



That wouldn't hurt a fly.


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## Acronym (Sep 10, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Not every punch in a "real fight" has to be a KO attempt. Just as a boxer (who would also really like to KO the other guy) will use other punches to try to set up a KO.



They won't skin touch or not touch at all, as they do in kumite.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 10, 2020)

Acronym said:


> They won't skin touch or not touch at all, as they do in kumite.


I'm not sure what your point is here. We were talking about the utility of non-KO punches, and now you're talking about punches that don't make contact.


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## Acronym (Sep 10, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> I'm not sure what your point is here. We were talking about the utility of non-KO punches, and now you're talking about punches that don't make contact.



Yes, because traditional kumite is light to no contact. Both score. There is generally no harmful consequence of double tagging unlike in a full contact setting. So you can grab someone if you're confident that you can get the first strike in.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 10, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Yes, because traditional kumite is light to no contact. Both score. There is generally no harmful consequence of double tagging unlike in a full contact setting. So you can grab someone if you're confident that you can get the first strike in.


Kumite, as I understand it is just sparring. It can be hard or light, just like sparring. Most of training in most styles is pretty soft, so folks can continue to train every week.


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## punisher73 (Sep 10, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Why isn't arm pulling allowed then in kumite, or applied in bunkai



It is.  Watch footage of the All-Japan and you will see it.  It is also done in a lot of bunkai.


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## Acronym (Sep 10, 2020)

punisher73 said:


> It is.  Watch footage of the All-Japan and you will see it.  It is also done in a lot of bunkai.



I know those bare knuckle Japanese guys do it. I just didn't think of it for some reason.


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## Star Dragon (Sep 26, 2020)

You can indeed "snap in" certain techniques with the back heel raised when power is not the primary objective. But with a reverse punch especially, it is advantageous to plant the back foot firmly on the ground at the moment of impact as that will definitely add to its power. For it will help you absorb the shock wave caused by your own impact and reflect it back into the target. 

Therefore as far as ideal body mechanics for power generation are concerned, the katas actually got it right, whereas tournament fighting got it wrong.

That being said, if you consider tournament Karate a sport that emphasizes speed and flexibility over impact power, then you can understand why you see the players raising their heels all the time. Also, the distance in a tournament fight is different from what you would generally expect in a self-defence situation. - It was for a reason that Gichin Funakoshi was so disturbed by seeing the changes done to his art after it had arrived on the Japanese mainland.

Much of what is frequently done in tournament fighting simply isn't going to be quite as functional in a street fight. If you practise for self-defence, I suggest you never lift either of your heels very much - except you are going to throw a kick with that same foot, of course.


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## isshinryuronin (Sep 27, 2020)

3 points:
     1,  Rooting, as wab25 said, is important since the power of impact, especially in a straight punch, is braced by the solid rear leg and keeps the force (kind of like a rebound) going where you want it to.  Kata teaches good habits.  Once mastered, it is possible to punch hard without the rear heel planted using other body mechanics.
     2.  Kata is not fighting (sort of), but neither is light contact tournament competition.  Bringing the heel up increases range a few inches to allow a point hit, even though the punch may leave you off balance, not have full power, etc. that many judges nowadays may not consider.
     3.  Rooting helps keep control of your weight, important in grappling, locking and take downs.
By the way, Acronym, which advanced katas do you know?


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