# Bunkai for Nukite?



## Ademadis (Oct 8, 2016)

Just wondering what and how Nukite uchi (spear hand strike) is used. I've been thinking it over and I can only see it being applied to the neck and belly area.

Surely striking with the tips of your fingers is going to do more damage to you than the other person?


----------



## Tez3 (Oct 8, 2016)

I don't think you can have Bunkai for a single technique? As far as I understand it and was taught Bunkai is taking katas apart to find techniques. What does bunkai mean?

The spear hand doesn't have to be a finger strike as such the fingers can slide past and you strike with the 'meaty' part of the palm of your hand ( to the side of the head perhaps or if you are on the side across the face) or the top of the hand, as in a strike to the testicles when you strike down with a sort of slicing movement with the top of hand (then you can retract you hand in a cupping and squeezing motion.)


----------



## Ademadis (Oct 8, 2016)

Oh I thought Bunkai was just a general term for the discussion of technique, oopsie xP.

But osu I can see the other uses now. And a groin pull like In Bassai?


----------



## Tez3 (Oct 8, 2016)

Ademadis said:


> Oh I thought Bunkai was just a general term for the discussion of technique, oopsie xP.
> 
> But osu I can see the other uses now. And a groin pull like In Bassai?



No worries, I don't know what style's Bassai you do so I'm not sure. This is ours.


----------



## Paul_D (Oct 8, 2016)

Ademadis said:


> Surely striking with the tips of your fingers is going to do more damage to you than the other person?


Which should be enough information to tell you it's not a strike.


----------



## Ademadis (Oct 8, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> No worries, I don't know what style's Bassai you do so I'm not sure. This is ours.



Shotokan style, this is a good video of it;





You can see the strike and pull @42~45 seconds in, though now that I look at it it's more shuto than nukite.



Paul_D said:


> Which should be enough information to tell you it's not a strike.



Which is why I'm asking what it actually is :s

Words like 'block' and 'strike' are just lies in Karate ~.~


----------



## Paul_D (Oct 8, 2016)

Ademadis said:


> Which is why I'm asking what it actually is :s




Nukite application | Iain Abernethy


----------



## Tez3 (Oct 8, 2016)

Paul_D said:


> Nukite application | Iain Abernethy



Ademadis, Iain is a good 'go to' for information, he has articles, podcasts and seminars. Latter are well worth going to, you learn a lot and he's great fun.


----------



## Paul_D (Oct 8, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Ademadis, Iain is a good 'go to' for information, he has articles, podcasts and seminars. Latter are well worth going to, you learn a lot and he's great fun.


Would love to go on one of his semianrsbyt but he never seem to come anywhere remotely near my part of England :-(


----------



## Ademadis (Oct 8, 2016)

Aye thanks a bunch for the link! gonna have a looki though .

And aye wow he moves around a lot xD, I wonder if I'll be able to catch him in at some point


----------



## Tez3 (Oct 8, 2016)

Iain will come to you if your club wants to organise a seminar, you can tell him what you'd like to do.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Oct 8, 2016)

Ademadis said:


> Just wondering what and how Nukite uchi (spear hand strike) is used.



As a strike, it's used to focus power in a small area.



Ademadis said:


> I've been thinking it over and I can only see it being applied to the neck and belly area.



It can be used anywhere any other strike can be used.



Ademadis said:


> Surely striking with the tips of your fingers is going to do more damage to you than the other person?



Only if you have not trained and conditioned properly for that strike. Of course, that's true of pretty much any strike.






Personally, I'd prefer that GM LEE not hit me with that...


----------



## JR 137 (Oct 8, 2016)

I agree with Tez.  The nukite doesn't strictly have to be a spear hand strike; it could be a modified palm-heel (shotei) strike as well.  I'm not sure if you know Pinan/Heian katas.  In 2 and 3 (or 1 and 3, depending on how your school numbers them), there's what's referred to as a down block followed by a nukite.  I look at it as hooking the shoulder/arm, forcing the opponent down, and using the nukite as a modified palm-heel strike to the jaw/side of the chin.  If you visualize that correctly, the force of the strike will actually twist the neck.

Video of Pinan 2.  The down block to nukite I refer to is the move before he turns at the top (the 8th count, on the kiai).






There are some hardcore traditionalists (mainly Okinawan in Okinawa) who do a ton of conditioning.  When properly conditioned, I wouldn't want to be hit with one; I think I'd rather get elbowed in the head.

In the Kyokushin propaganda film Fighting Black Kings, one of the opening sequences has one guy throw a watermelon in the air, and another guy strikes through it, destroying it.  I thought it was a punch at first, but the second the watermelon explodes, it's quite clear it was a nukite.


----------



## Danny T (Oct 8, 2016)

It is a movement.
Can be a strike of several types or perhaps it is a placing of the limb when in a grappling situation.
What is the move prior to it and what is happening during the transition?


----------



## punisher73 (Oct 10, 2016)

The spearhand is exactly that, using the hand as a spear to stab into the target.

As Dirty Dog pointed out, if you don't temper the weapon and train to use it, then you are not going to be effective with the weapon.  It doesn't mean that it isn't effective though.  Weapon conditioning used to be a LARGE part of martial art training and for the most part has fallen out of favor with strip mall martial arts.


----------



## hoshin1600 (Oct 10, 2016)

The nukite is indeed an actual strike.  however most people today do not condition and train their bodies the way it was done long ago.
Kiyohide Shinjo does.  i can assure you in Uechi karate there are many like him, and that i would not want to be on the receiving end of a nukite.





in this vid the first break was with his thumb knuckle called a bushiken  .32 sec in
second strike was a type of nukite common in uechi ryu.  but it is done with the finger tips  .43 sec in
at 1;50 after one failed attempt he broke the 2"x 2" board with the toes , the strike is called a sokusen geri.


----------



## Paul_D (Oct 11, 2016)

hoshin1600 said:


> however most people today do not condition and train their bodies the way it was done long ago.


As well as the knuckles, the hand also conatins one of the hardest parts of the human body with which the stirke.  It is simply not necessary to dedicate large amounts of time conditioning the soft parts to become hard, in many cases permanently deforming yourself in the process.


----------



## hoshin1600 (Oct 11, 2016)

Paul_D said:


> As well as the knuckles, the hand also conatins one of the hardest parts of the human body with which the stirke.  It is simply not necessary to dedicate large amounts of time conditioning the soft parts to become hard, in many cases permanently deforming yourself in the process.


I'm curious Paul what part of my post do you disagree with?
The OP question was about the application of a nukite.  I gave an answer.  Historically the nukite was an actual strike. Some people seem to think the strike when done in kata is only symbolic. My point was that in the past it was not symbolic or just a concept.
Now if you wish to point out that it may disfigure the hand and there are better options available for a strike, we are in complete agreement. I only said it is an actual strike and I wouldn't want to get hit by it from someone like Shinjo.


----------



## punisher73 (Oct 11, 2016)

Paul_D said:


> As well as the knuckles, the hand also conatins one of the hardest parts of the human body with which the stirke.  It is simply not necessary to dedicate large amounts of time conditioning the soft parts to become hard, in many cases permanently deforming yourself in the process.



Not sure what you disagreed with.  What I posted was/is historically accurate in regards to the nukite.  Also, proper conditioning doesn't deform the weapon (cause damage to the hands).  The okinawans favored longevity and trained with that in mind.  But, this doesn't negate the fact that the spearhand was an actual strike and was used as such.  Now, a whole different discussion can be had about viable target areas of the spearhand, and this is where most agree with the usage of the spearhand.  You stick to "soft targets" that you don't need to condition the hand for, such as, the throat/eyes.  

On the other hand, if you want to find applications for "motions" in kata, then ANY movement or technique can be changed to fit what you want in that context as long as it works.  And a spearhand motion in kata doesn't ALWAYS have to be a spearhand strike.


----------



## punisher73 (Oct 11, 2016)

Just thought I would clarify the term for "conditioning".  I'm talking about strength/grip exercises for the hands and fingers, NOT talking about slamming your fingers repeatedly into a hard solid object to 'deaden the nerves' so the strike doesn't hurt anymore.  That was NOT a part of the original conditioning used by the okinawans and seems to be something added during the transfer over to Japan. Much like many people view the makiwara as a "knuckle conditioning tool", when that also was not a part of it's original usage/training methodology.

So maybe it was a disagreement by what was meant by "conditioning".


----------



## Dirty Dog (Oct 11, 2016)

Paul_D said:


> As well as the knuckles, the hand also conatins one of the hardest parts of the human body with which the stirke.  It is simply not necessary to dedicate large amounts of time conditioning the soft parts to become hard, in many cases permanently deforming yourself in the process.



It is, if you want to be able to use the spearhand strike. Which is, after all, exactly what is being discussed.
Now, I'll agree that there's no reason for the vast majority of people to condition the fingers and hands to this extent.
But for those few who do decide to use this strike, the conditioning is not nearly as horrible as you make it out to be. Assuming it's done properly, of course. 
I don't train the spearhand now, but I did as a younger man. And my hands work just fine. Be sort of impossible to do my job if they didn't.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Oct 12, 2016)

It is a strike. It can be used to target the throat and between the ribs under the solar plexus or the groin as a precursor to a grab. It can also be used to dig into the armpits. I also like to use it to open doors.


----------



## punisher73 (Oct 12, 2016)

RTKDCMB said:


> It is a strike. It can be used to target the throat and between the ribs under the solar plexus or the groin as a precursor to a grab. It can also be used to dig into the armpits. I also like to use it to open doors.



glad I'm not the only one who practices the weapon formation and resistance with it by using it to open doors. LOL


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 12, 2016)

RTKDCMB said:


> It is a strike. It can be used to target the throat and between the ribs under the solar plexus or the groin as a precursor to a grab. It can also be used to dig into the armpits. I also like to use it to open doors.


Wow, I totally thought I was alone in that. Glad to know there are other crazies like me 

As a side note, we were taught both as a strike and as a precursor to a grab, but I mainly use it as the second.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 12, 2016)

Keep in mind that martial art strikes are specific.  The strikes were designed as a tool in which we can just hit any part of the body without consequence.  Strikes with the fingers are no different.  The finger strikes are designed to hit certain areas such as soft targets and body cavities like the arm pits.  Even though these targets are soft targets, it's still vital that you condition the fingers.  Most martial artists don't have the necessary conditioning to use these type of finger striking techniques.
You can always tells which martial artists condition the hands and fingers because their hands and fingers are thicker.  I'm not ashamed to say that a spearhand to the throat is probably a risky technique for me and I'm more likely to injure myself trying to actually use that technique.  I don't think my fingers could take the impact


----------



## MI_martialist (Oct 14, 2016)

Nukite is really just the formation of the hand...how it gets to the end position is another discussion.

Nukite hand position was originally used to support a tanto thrust.


----------



## Paul_D (Oct 17, 2016)

hoshin1600 said:


> Historically the nukite was an actual strike..



+Was it?

See number two:-
http://www.karatebyjesse.com/10-differences-okinawan-karate-japanese-karate/

When people don’t know what a movement is for they guess.  The problem is they often use WYSIWYG as the basis for their guess.   Are we to assume all of these guesses are correct?   

Now it could be a strike with one of the most fragile parts of your body, that requires you to spend hours/months/years conditioning your body to ensure you can apply it without damaging yourself and thereby leaving yourself able to use your hand for the rest of the confrontation.

However we already have enough striking tools on our bodies for every target we could wish to hit.  So it would make more sense to continue training these, and getting better at them, than it would to dedciate valuable training time to creating new completely unnecessary parts of are body to strike with.

Or the movement could have a much simpler, practical, and common sense application.

We will never know for sure, but I try to always include an element of common sense and practicality when listening to people’s interpretations.   But of course everyone is entitled to beleive what they want, it is after all their safety they are gambling with not mine, so people have to beleive what they think is best for them.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 17, 2016)

Paul_D said:


> Or the movement could have a much simpler, practical, and common sense application.


I think this is important because self-defense shouldn't be complicated, it should be practical. The concepts behind a technique can be complex but the application has to be practical enough to be able to do in an instance. 



Paul_D said:


> Now it could be a strike with one of the most fragile parts of your body, that requires you to spend hours/months/years conditioning your body to ensure you can apply it without damaging yourself and thereby leaving yourself able to use your hand for the rest of the confrontation


This is true with even the basic punches.  You have to spend many hours, months, and years of conditioning to the body to ensure you can apply the technique without damaging yourself.  Something as a punch is not an "out of the box" technique that can just be fired without damaging the hand.  A poorly aligned wrist can be just as damaging as unconditioned knuckles.


----------



## hoshin1600 (Oct 17, 2016)

Paul_D said:


> +Was it?
> 
> See number two:-
> http://www.karatebyjesse.com/10-differences-okinawan-karate-japanese-karate/
> ...


Was it???
In uechi ryu karate, as in the clip that I posted yes it was.
As far as your reference to a blog post by some dude named Jessie , I think you are assuming that I am guessing the "meaning" of the action called a nukite.  Well I am not guessing. . I really don't care what Jessie says , ( I do agree with his point but it does not apply here)  I have studied and learnt from many legit 8th, 9th and  10th dans in uechi ryu. I spent time with Shinyu Gushi and Ryuko Tomoyose( considered a national living treasure in okinawa).  The clip I posted was of Kiyohide Shinjo. Now maybe these names mean nothing to you but they are on the same level and importance as Miyagi, Higgaona, Motobu, Funakoshi, Itosu. The creators, if you will of okinawan karate.
If kanei uechi says it's a finger tip strike then it's a finger tip strike and your opinion , my opinion and the roman Catholic popes opinion on the application and " meaning" is pretty irrelevant.


----------



## hoshin1600 (Oct 17, 2016)

The problem is not forgetfulness of what the meanings were 100 years or so ago. The problem is a matter of context.  Part of Kanbun Uechi 's training was in Chinese medicine that includes the belief in chi meridians. It is most likely that a finger tip strike was designed to strike and disrupt the flow of chi along a meridian line.  Now in 2016 you are trying to overlay your own beliefs on top of something thought up 120 years in the past. Your current disbelief in chi does not negate the reason for its original design and use. Is a nukite useful in 2016 probably not doesn't change its use in the past.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Oct 18, 2016)

Paul_D said:


> Now it could be a strike with one of the most fragile parts of your body,



The fingers are not even close to being the most fragile parts of your body.



Paul_D said:


> that requires you to spend hours/months/years conditioning your body to ensure you can apply it without damaging yourself and thereby leaving yourself able to use your hand for the rest of the confrontation.



Depends on the target. I can think of a number of targets that could be struck with the fingertips without requiring any significant time spent conditioning. Eyes. Larynx. Carotid. Solar plexus. Femoral nerve....


----------



## Tez3 (Oct 18, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> The fingers are not even close to being the most fragile parts of your body.
> 
> 
> 
> Depends on the target. I can think of a number of targets that could be struck with the fingertips without requiring any significant time spent conditioning. *Eyes*. Larynx. Carotid. Solar plexus. Femoral nerve....



if you think I'm going to get eyeballs impaled on my nicely shaped, very strong, varnished nails you have another think coming! 
While nukite is undoubtedly a spear hand strike I do use it in other ways as well, slightly off from original intent but it works ( oh I know it does so does the person I used it on  ) so I'm happy with it.


----------



## Paul_D (Oct 18, 2016)

So let’s look at this from a different angle. 

One of the key elements in the explanation for any movement is that it must explain everything that’s going on, not just one part of the movement.  If we take one example, using nukite as a takedown (as in Iain Abernethy’s video) it explains what the right hand is doing, it explains what the left hand is doing and why it is where it is, and it explains why we need to use the stance we use rather than using a different stance.  It follows then it is one acceptable explanation for the movement.  Not the only one of course, but certainly one.

The same cannot be said of nukite as a “spearhand strike” (putting aside the obvious problems of striking with the tips of the fingers) a spear hand strike only explains what one hand is doing.  It does not explain what the non striking hand is doing or why it is underneath the elbow of the striking hand.  Nor does it explain why we stepping forward into the stance we are using, rather than any other stance.

If we are striking the throat or the ribs, as has been suggested, then stepping forward into this stance means we are starting the movement from too far away for the left hand to be seizing the opponent.  Why then is the non striking hand where it is, and what is it doing?  If we are performing the strike from a position where we are close enough to seize with the left hand, then the only way we can use this stance is if we step backwards into it.   But the movement isn’t performed by stepping backways.

There are too many pieces of the jigsaw which do not fit.  This should, with the additional of common sense, be enough to tell us this explanation is incorrect and that we need to look for another.

It’s the same with the explanation of Shuto Uke as a block, that only explains what one hand is doing.  It does not explain why we are stepping forward, why we are using the stance we are using nor does it adequately explain what the non blocking hand is doing.  Other explanations do all these things, and yet they are ignored by some in favour of “block”.

It is pointless to argue of course.  You can give a person knowledge, but you cannot make them think.  Some people want to remain fools only because the truth requires change.


----------



## hoshin1600 (Oct 18, 2016)

Paul_D said:


> So let’s look at this from a different angle.
> 
> One of the key elements in the explanation for any movement is that it must explain everything that’s going on, not just one part of the movement.  If we take one example, using nukite as a takedown (as in Iain Abernethy’s video) it explains what the right hand is doing, it explains what the left hand is doing and why it is where it is, and it explains why we need to use the stance we use rather than using a different stance.  It follows then it is one acceptable explanation for the movement.  Not the only one of course, but certainly one.
> 
> ...


Your logic is sound in this post but you are referring to one instance found in one lineage of karate. Since I do not know the kata you are referring too I cannot comment on its application. However it should be acknowledged that there are many kata and many styles and we all know that one should not make sweeping comments or judgments.


----------



## punisher73 (Oct 18, 2016)

Paul_D said:


> +Was it?
> 
> See number two:-
> http://www.karatebyjesse.com/10-differences-okinawan-karate-japanese-karate/
> ...



You have been given examples and historical facts that in Okinawan karate, the nukite was a strike.  The article you posted even states that the transmission from okinawa to japan was lost (your #2), but we have shown that the spearhand was a spearhand in Okinawan karate, this is not a guess.  These are lineages that trace to the founders of their style.

BUT, like I said previously, if you are just talking about the motions of the hands in kata, then "yes" it can be more than JUST a spearhand strike.  That does not negate either premise though.  Motions in kata can have multiple uses, I think we can all be in agreement about that aspect.

I will leave you with an old Shaolin Temple Maxim:

"Since we have no swords or spears,
we shall make our hands into
swords and our fingers into spears."

Again, you can argue that you don't want to condition the weapon, or that there are better options etc. That does NOT negate that historically, they DID condition their fingers for long periods of time.


----------



## Ademadis (Oct 25, 2016)

Just want to say thanks for al the discussion, it's been really interesting to read through the different interpretations


----------



## punisher73 (Oct 25, 2016)

> _"In the early days Master Higaonna taught Sanchin exactly as he had learned it from Ryu Ryu Ko Roshi. The breathing method was rapid and the hand movements were performed with nukute (spear hand) rather than with the closed fist, as it is practiced today._
> 
> _Sanchin kata was practiced with nukite when Chojun Miyagi first learned it from Higaonna Sensei. Chojun Sensei related to An'ichi Miyagi that during Sanchin practice, when executing nukite, Higaonna Sensei would tell him to blow hard as he trust out his hand quickly._
> 
> ...



An interesting historical note about nukite in Okinawan karate and thoughts about it even back then.  This quote comes from Morio Higonna's book on Goju Ryu.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Nov 19, 2016)

Sorry I missed this conversation. No one seems to have mentioned the proper hand formation for the nukite, which helps in soft tissue strikes, even if you don't condition your hands.


----------



## Paul_D (Nov 20, 2016)

punisher73 said:


> Motions in kata can have multiple uses



They can, but you have to have some way of filtering out the impractical and/or idiotic interpretations.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Nov 20, 2016)

Paul_D said:


> They can, but you have to have some way of filtering out the impractical and/or idiotic interpretations.



There may be impractical or incorrect applications, but I have found more often, techniques so labelled were poorly taught or badly understood.

To date, I have been shown many applications I cannot myself yet perform adroitly. however I am convinced of their practicality through painful tuition. 

There are bogus techniques. However, I try to avoid that label until I become convinced that the instructor themselves cannot make it work on a resisting partner.


----------

