# defense at school.(Rules that prohibite fighting.



## artist89 (Feb 27, 2005)

I'm in high school and I have been in TKD for about (on and off, mostly on) 5 years now. I was wondering if the school gives you in school suspension(ISS) or outside school suspension(OSS) how are you to defend your self in a situation like that? I know you can walk away but what ifthey keep coming at you? Just a thought....


----------



## LexTalinis (Feb 28, 2005)

Yes, if you are involved in ANY altercation, self defense or otherwise, and have not gone home first (meaning they are still responsible for you), or if you are at a school function, they can and will suspend you.

Defense of one's self is a perspective that has to be evaluated:  Did you do everything you possibly could to defuse the situation and not bring harm to the lives of others.  We as martial artists hold a sacred responsibility to preserve life, to protect it, and it is a charge on should not take lightly.  To unleash your art can bring grave results.  Most of the time you can talk your way out of a fight, always be alert, and never ever highten the stressfulness of a encounter that could end in violence.  

In reality there are no winners when it comes to violence.


----------



## masherdong (Feb 28, 2005)

> Yes, if you are involved in ANY altercation, self defense or otherwise, and have not gone home first (meaning they are still responsible for you), or if you are at a school function, they can and will suspend you.


Yeah, so sad, but very true.


----------



## sgtmac_46 (Feb 28, 2005)

Unfortunately, the thought process in modern educational institutions is "Zero Tolerance". I wonder sometimes if zero tolerance is just a euphemism for "without sense". Schools don't take in to account things like nuance. A fight is a fight, and any participant in a fight is considered just as guilty as any other party. If you have never been in a fight in your life, and some kid who's been suspended 12 times this year punches you, then you'll both probably receive the same punishment if you try to defend yourself against this kid. Welcome to education in modern america. Just be glad you didn't accidently bring a pair of plastic scissors to school in your backpack.


----------



## 8253 (Feb 28, 2005)

My childrens school district employs the zero tolerance thing.  There if you are just sitting there being quiet and someone hits you and you just continue to sit there, you get suspended to.  I told my children if you get hit your going to get suspended so do as much damage to the person who hit you as possible.  Might as well give them a reason to suspend you.  Unfortunately my wife didnt take that very well and i ended up in the dog house for a while.  But it still made sinse to me.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Mar 1, 2005)

Learn some pressure point and finger locks.  You may be punished, but the other guy will look all the stupider.  You know, dancing on his tip toes screaming in agony and all you have ahold of is his pinky.


----------



## lvwhitebir (Mar 1, 2005)

8253 said:
			
		

> I told my children if you get hit your going to get suspended so do as much damage to the person who hit you as possible.  Might as well give them a reason to suspend you.



Very bad advice.  Once your child stikes back, the other kid can sue.  This isn't self-defense.  Both you and your child will then pay dearly.  What does that teach your child, too, for when they grow up?  That they should use violence to solve their problems?

Come on now.  Most school fights are over nothing more than some ego.  Is that really self-defense?  Put it this way, if the other kid is doing something that threatens your life, by all means defend yourself.  If he's pushing you, slapping you, or flicking your ear go to someone in authority and report it; get the teacher, parents, and principle involved.  If it doesn't get solved, sue.  Teach your children how to properly solve conflicts, using their heads and not their fists.

Teach your kids proper behavior:
Passive  -  usually makes you a victim
Aggressive  - usually makes you an attacker
Assertive  - keeps you out of trouble while getting your point across.

WhiteBirch


----------



## hardheadjarhead (Mar 1, 2005)

8253 said:
			
		

> My childrens school district employs the zero tolerance thing.  There if you are just sitting there being quiet and someone hits you and you just continue to sit there, you get suspended to.  I told my children if you get hit your going to get suspended so do as much damage to the person who hit you as possible.  Might as well give them a reason to suspend you.  Unfortunately my wife didnt take that very well and i ended up in the dog house for a while.  But it still made sinse to me.



That's a great way to get your kid stigmatized...and when he's in High School...tried as an adult.  

As a child grows so grow the impact of his punches.  I had a kid training here some years ago that was punched but once by a ten year old, resulting in a fracture of the orbital socket of the eye.  Noses break of course, and sometimes require reconstructive surgery.  Teeth chip and get punched through lips.

I can think of a lot of things preferable to doing "as much damage to the person who hit you as possible."  Fighting back might be called for, but at some time we have to teach a child the concept of a force continuum and reasonable cause.


Regards,


Steve


----------



## BrandiJo (Mar 1, 2005)

yeah thats a bad way of putting it, my parents always taught me, do enough to keep myself from getting hurt ...and maybe make the other person look stupid. YOu do get suspended either way so might as well do something to earn it


----------



## LexTalinis (Mar 1, 2005)

In my opinion, the zero tolerance in schools is a dubble edged sword.  While it helps keep violence down in school (and that is arguable) it also creates a biproduct: kids who grow up becoming adults who believe that defending yourself or others is wrong.  Granted denfense can come in many forms and should rarely come to violence, it must also be acknowledged that in the rare occassion one is forced to action, that they were not wrong.  The Criminal justice system here in america recognises that self defense is justifible, and does not hang people out to dry.  It is a shame that our schools do not do the same.


----------



## Corporal Hicks (Mar 2, 2005)

8253 said:
			
		

> My childrens school district employs the zero tolerance thing. There if you are just sitting there being quiet and someone hits you and you just continue to sit there, you get suspended to. I told my children if you get hit your going to get suspended so do as much damage to the person who hit you as possible. Might as well give them a reason to suspend you. Unfortunately my wife didnt take that very well and i ended up in the dog house for a while. But it still made sinse to me.


Lol, nice!


----------



## uglydawg (Mar 2, 2005)

Silently pass a rumor around school that you can break 15 bricks by just looking at them and then your problem is solved.:ultracool


----------



## Casey_Sutherland (Mar 2, 2005)

Zero Tolorance is an easy way for teachers and administrators to alieviate side taking and discipline both paties regardless of actions. I agree with most on this post, especially the pressure point education if taken in context. Self defence also is emotional and cognitive, not simply physical. I am an Early Childhood Educator and I find the best way is to be true to yourself. If you have talked with the person verbally attacking you, and have done all in your possesion to talk things out, you may have to deal with it. I am not saying to sock the bully in the face. A nice heel palm to the chest or a percussion strike to the kidneys are devastating and will not leave more then a red mark and a shattered ego. With an even more aggressive schooling with shoot outs and stabbings it is best to be prepared mentally.


Hope this helps


----------



## Adept (Mar 2, 2005)

Something someone on the other school fighting thread pointed out - 

 School fighting is more like prison fighting than street fighting. In as much as the fight is more to establish ones place in the social hierarchy than some other reason. Because of this, rules like zero tolerance are aimed in the wrong direction.


----------



## theletch1 (Mar 3, 2005)

The zero tolerance policy does nothing to quell violence, in my opinion.  Those that are likely to attack aren't the least bit concerned with getting expelled from school so there is no incentive in the policy not to attack.  Those that are likely to be the victim of the attack are more likely to be concerned with punishment from a fight and less likely to defend themselves because of this policy.  You ask me,  zero tolerance simply makes for easier targets for the bullies in the school to do their thing.


----------



## lvwhitebir (Mar 3, 2005)

theletch1 said:
			
		

> The zero tolerance policy does nothing to quell violence, in my opinion.



IMO, zero tolerance simply says that violence in any form is not toleratred and goes so far as to say they usually can't place blame on one person or not, so they have to punish both.



			
				theletch1 said:
			
		

> You ask me,  zero tolerance simply makes for easier targets for the bullies in the school to do their thing.



What other choices are there?  The problems as I see it are that:
1) most confrontations in school are over "social standing" or Ego and have nothing to do with self-defense
2) in most confrontations, there are no distinct differences between the attacker and the defender; one may have "started it", but they both were involved.

WhiteBirch


----------



## Ray (Mar 3, 2005)

Avoiding a fight by running or walking away may work when you're unlikely to see the other person/people regularly.

If you cannot cause a continuous hassle to stop because your are regularly expose to the person/people (like at school) then you might have to fight.  Probably you may garner enough respect to be left alone...You will have to take whatever punishment the school gives out.  It's been my experience as a student (way back when) and as a father that the school staff are unable to stop anything from happening and going to them just makes it worse (unless it's very serious, like someone with a gun).

On the other hand, if you're being hassled by a gang member then standing up to him/her might just get you jumped by several assailants later. Or stabbed or shot.

The answers to your specific troubles may not be able to come from a bulletin board.  You may have to talk to someone you respect, in person..like a father, a cop, etc.


----------



## sgtmac_46 (Mar 3, 2005)

lvwhitebir said:
			
		

> IMO, zero tolerance simply says that violence in any form is not toleratred and goes so far as to say they usually can't place blame on one person or not, so they have to punish both.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Here's another option...how about some common sense. How about punishing someone who starts a fight more seriously than one who is simply defending themselves from a physical assault. Most assaults in prison are simply fights over "ego", but that doesn't mean people don't get stabbed to death. If someone is assaulting me for their ego, it means I have to just take it because "Hey, it's just for his ego, so I should take a beating and he'll feel better"? Whatever. And as for "both being involved", no kidding. If I get mugged, and I defend myself I was "involved". If a woman is about to get raped, and she shoots the rapist, she's guilty because she was "involved"? If I take a beating and do nothing, I was "involved", so what does being involved have to do with anything? lol.


----------



## 8253 (Mar 6, 2005)

Better to be judged by 12 for fighting back than carried by 6 for lack of fighting back.


----------



## Casey_Sutherland (Mar 6, 2005)

8253 said:
			
		

> Better to be judged by 12 for fighting back than carried by 6 for lack of fighting back.


Very good quote


----------



## 47MartialMan (Mar 6, 2005)

But juveniles have a way to not avoid or not control. It is easy to say to walk away, but harder to do. Juvenile peer pressure weighs heavy and takes the toll.


----------



## lvwhitebir (Mar 7, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> But juveniles have a way to not avoid or not control. It is easy to say to walk away, but harder to do. Juvenile peer pressure weighs heavy and takes the toll.



I believe it's the same as for an adult.  The difference is the adult generally has enough self-esteem or enough knowledge of consequences that he chooses to walk away.  Most of the juveniles I know believe that the way to solve the problem is to "put the person in their place."  It's a matter of learning proper behavior and learning the repurcussions of your actions.

How many of you have grown up and thought "I can't believe I fought over something as stupid as that?"

WhiteBirch


----------



## lvwhitebir (Mar 7, 2005)

sgtmac_46 said:
			
		

> Here's another option...how about some common sense. How about punishing someone who starts a fight more seriously than one who is simply defending themselves from a physical assault.



I agree.  Unfortunatly that's the realm of the courts and not the school.  The school sees them both as offenders so they don't have to make a legal decision.  

Try this.  If you get into a confrontation at school, ask yourself if you think you can go to the police and press charges.  If so, then you probably applied self-defense properly.  And, if so, why don't you go to the police and press charges?



			
				sgtmac_46 said:
			
		

> Most assaults in prison are simply fights over "ego", but that doesn't mean people don't get stabbed to death. If someone is assaulting me for their ego, it means I have to just take it because "Hey, it's just for his ego, so I should take a beating and he'll feel better"? Whatever.



I never said to "take a beating."  I said find another option before you get to the point of physical attack.  And a school is not a prison; it's a bunch of kids who fight over tennis shoes and girls.  Most of the time (statistics say somewhere over 80%), the fights are not deadly at all, their purpose is simply to exert a position of power.  Ego fights can more easily be defused by walking away.  The more your ego intervenes the more likely there will be a fight.



			
				sgtmac_46 said:
			
		

> And as for "both being involved", no kidding. If I get mugged, and I defend myself I was "involved". If a woman is about to get raped, and she shoots the rapist, she's guilty because she was "involved"? If I take a beating and do nothing, I was "involved", so what does being involved have to do with anything? lol.



I'm sorry you misunderstood my definition.  I'll try to be more clear.

"Being involved" is a matter of your state of mind when you "defended yourself;" not your presence in the situation.  If your entire goal is to do what is needed to escape the situation, then legally you're not "involved."  If your state of mind is to punish the other person or is of wanting to fight, then you're "involved."  That's the underlying essense of self-defense.  

If a guy jumps you and you create enought space to run out the door, you're not "involved."  If the guy says to "take it out back" and he dies in the altercation, you are "involved" and it's no longer a self-defense situation.

If you get mugged and you try everything in your power to get away but still end up having to kill the guy, it's self defense.  If you instead press the point, beat him unconcious even when he tries to flee, then you're guilty of attacking him, too.  In fact you both are guilty in the eyes of the law.

A woman who fights back against a rapist and ends up having to shoot him because she has no other option can assert a self-defense claim.  Going over to a man's house and shooting him because he claimed he was going to rape her is not self-defense.

So, in short, "being involved" is the desire to fight; not "being involved" is the desire to avoid the fight.  Your state of mind is one of the keys to a successful self-defense claim.

WhiteBirch


----------



## lvwhitebir (Mar 7, 2005)

Here are some statistics  (National Center for Education Statistics, Bureau of Justice Statistics, "Indicators of School Crime and Safety: 2003"):

* In the 1999-2000 school year there were 16 school-related homicides of school-aged children.

* In 2001, 13% of students reported as being in a fight at the school

* In 2001, 8% of students reported as being bullied within the last 6 months

WhiteBirch


----------



## sgtmac_46 (Mar 7, 2005)

lvwhitebir said:
			
		

> I agree. Unfortunatly that's the realm of the courts and not the school. The school sees them both as offenders so they don't have to make a legal decision.
> 
> Try this. If you get into a confrontation at school, ask yourself if you think you can go to the police and press charges. If so, then you probably applied self-defense properly. And, if so, why don't you go to the police and press charges?
> 
> ...


"being involved" usually means you were there. I guess we can argue over the definition of "is".  The rest here is nothing but a strawman argument.


----------



## arnisador (Nov 17, 2005)

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> Learn some pressure point and finger locks. You may be punished, but the other guy will look all the stupider. You know, dancing on his tip toes screaming in agony and all you have ahold of is his pinky.



I love it when it looks like I did nothing, yet they're in pain...I look for thos etechniques! Oh, sorry, i tripped over you...hope you're OK!


----------



## Icewater (Nov 17, 2005)

School policies over fighting cheese me off to no end.  But we have a saying in my kwoon, "It's better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6."  Basically, think of your safety first.  Think of school policy second.


----------



## Bigshadow (Nov 17, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> I love it when it looks like I did nothing, yet they're in pain...I look for thos etechniques! Oh, sorry, i tripped over you...hope you're OK!


I like that too.... All the while yelling Stop Stop I don't want to fight! LOL 

You have to be sure to add the audio cues too! I mean all the witnesses saw was me telling him I didn't want to fight and somehow he tripped and I fell and somehow his ribs got broken and his arm dislocated! Ooops excuse me, I was trying to get away from him!


I could just imagine how that would look.


----------



## Andrew Green (Nov 17, 2005)

You do what you have to do to defend yourself, try not to do any serious damage if you can avoid it, but don't let yourself get beat on, you'll likely get punished anyways and mark yourself as a easy victim that doesn't fight back.

You'll likely get suspended, but so what?  Better to get a few days suspension for doing what is right then getting beat up and making yourself a easy target for next time.


----------

