# Will Tracy has a new website.



## hongkongfooey (Oct 30, 2006)

He's back!
Same old articles, with a new twist. Lets discuss, but lets not get too rabid. over all of it.

http://kenpokarate.com/index.html


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## Danjo (Oct 30, 2006)

hongkongfooey said:


> He's back!
> Same old articles, with a new twist. Lets discuss, but lets not get too rabid. over all of it.
> 
> http://kenpokarate.com/index.html


 
As opposed to his old websites:

He and his wife's Church 
http://www.subgenius.com/subg-digest/v0/0082.html


http://www.goddess.org/

http://www.godulike.co.uk/faiths.php?chapter=24&subject=who


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## Flying Crane (Oct 30, 2006)

hongkongfooey said:


> He's back!
> Same old articles, with a new twist. Lets discuss, but lets not get too rabid. over all of it.
> 
> http://kenpokarate.com/index.html


 

Is there something specific you feel needs to be discussed, that hasn't been discussed before?  

Or are you just interested in dragging out old skeletons?  'Cause everyone has some of those...


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## hongkongfooey (Oct 30, 2006)

Flying Crane said:


> Is there something specific you feel needs to be discussed, that hasn't been discussed before?
> 
> Or are you just interested in dragging out old skeletons? 'Cause everyone has some of those...


 

Apparently, there are supposed to be some new articles that were never published, when he put his version of Kenpo history on the net a few years ago. While most of the old stuff is just a cheap shot at Parker, who can't defend himself against the "truth" that the articles supposedly contain, the new stuff may be interesting, in a plane crash sort of way.

I myself, don't take what he says too seriously. It's just one man's point of view, likely with many embellishments of the truth. After the whole sex cult thing, I don't see how anyone can take him for face value.

Just my opinion.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 30, 2006)

*quote=hongkongfooey*

*Apparently, there are supposed to be some new articles that were never published, when he put his version of Kenpo history on the net a few years ago*. 

That will be interesting to read, if they are there.

*While most of the old stuff is just a cheap shot at Parker, who can't defend himself against the "truth" that the articles supposedly contain*, 

Taking cheap shots is certainly bad form and disrespectful.

*the new stuff may be interesting, in a plane crash sort of way*.

Sounds like you want to take cheap shots.

*I myself, don't take what he says too seriously*. 

Neither do I, but I suspect there may be some level of truth in there, and I doubt anybody will ever know for sure, one way or the other.  

*After the whole sex cult thing, I don't see how anyone can take him for face value.*

They are two completely different issues.  Just because he did something that our society frowns upon, doesn't automatically mean everything he has said and done is folly.  Keep the issues separate.

*Just my opinion*.

Which you of course have a right to.  But again, taking cheap shots is bad form and disrespectful.  The tone of the thread has already started to sound like it is going in that direction.


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## hongkongfooey (Oct 30, 2006)

Flying Crane said:


> *quote=hongkongfooey*
> 
> *Apparently, there are supposed to be some new articles that were never published, when he put his version of Kenpo history on the net a few years ago*.
> 
> ...


 

I agree that taking a cheap shot is bad form, that is not my intention. In person I am a jokester and a smart ***, sometimes that causes confusion on the net.

The guy must enjoy the attention that his articles create, since they seem to be reintroduced to the internet every few years. That's what I meant by the plane crash comment. He must know that there are people that knew Ed Parker that can dispute what he claims.


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## Danjo (Oct 30, 2006)

Flying Crane said:


> *After the whole sex cult thing, I don't see how anyone can take him for face value.*
> 
> They are two completely different issues. Just because he did something that our society frowns upon, doesn't automatically mean everything he has said and done is folly. Keep the issues separate.
> .


 
I disagree with you on this one. I think that the one firmly establishes him as a whacko and thus throws everything else he says into question. That he might occasionally be right about something is like saying that a broken clock is right twice a day.


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## JamesB (Oct 30, 2006)

I suspect many AK folks may dismiss these articles out-right, but I do believe there is a certain amount of truth there as well. Assuming the details are correct (the dates, the people involved etc), it is no secret that Mr Parker went through several evolutions of his Kenpo system, and also that his black-belts defected at one point which prompted a change in his methodology. Doc has mentioned this fact several times on this forum. Will Tracy also gives many details about how the Tracy franchise was based on the 'Arthur Murray Dance Studio' business plan, and how the Tracy's became very successful in their enterprise - and it is this success that prompted Parker to follow suit. Again, Doc has stated this many times even though a few AK'rs have in the past found it difficult to come to terms with this information. Personally I find it very interesting reading about kenpo's history, warts and all....

But there's certainly a lot of spin in those articles as well, which is being used to validate Will Tracy's own perspective. There's much talk of how Mr Parker stopped teaching 'kenpo karate', and that after 1962 (or whenever) what he was doing was not this 'original kenpo' any longer. But it's put in such a light as to suggest its a lesser form of kenpo. Perhaps in _some_ later 'commerical' forms it might be (also, it might not), but Tracy also down-plays the 'Chinese Kenpo' era as if the Chinese influences (presumably taught from Ark Wong) do not have any merit. There does seems to be a tendency for Tracy to want to align himself under a Japanese (Mitose) lineage and to downplay any other influences.

Personally I find the articles interesting, but the overall theme that is presented - "original (Tracy) kenpo is the best, all subsequent forms of kenpo are inferior" - is debatable.


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## hongkongfooey (Oct 30, 2006)

JamesB said:


> I suspect many AK folks may dismiss these articles out-right, but I do believe there is a certain amount of truth there as well. Assuming the details are correct (the dates, the people involved etc), it is no secret that Mr Parker went through several evolutions of his Kenpo system, and also that his black-belts defected at one point which prompted a change in his methodology. Doc has mentioned this fact several times on this forum. Will Tracy also gives many details about how the Tracy franchise was based on the 'Arthur Murray Dance Studio' business plan, and how the Tracy's became very successful in their enterprise - and it is this success that prompted Parker to follow suit. Again, Doc has stated this many times even though a few AK'rs have in the past found it difficult to come to terms with this information. Personally I find it very interesting reading about kenpo's history, warts and all....
> 
> HONG KONG FOOEY
> *I agree that there* *is a probability of truth is some of the statements. I don't believe that American Kenpo is squeaky clean, either. But, when the guy starts hinting that he knows what Ed Parker did, better than Ed Parker, I have to roll my eyes in disgust. He even goes ahead and nicely calls Mrs. Parker a liar about a date that she says Ed Parker was in Hawaii.*
> ...


 

*I kind of get the same read.*


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## Flying Crane (Oct 30, 2006)

Danjo said:


> I disagree with you on this one. I think that the one firmly establishes him as a whacko and thus throws everything else he says into question. That he might occasionally be right about something is like saying that a broken clock is right twice a day.


 

well, I'll agree to disagree.  He may be a wacko, but I'm not a psychiatrist so I can't formally diagnose that and unless you are a psychiatrist, neither can you.  It's just personal opinion.

He didn't murder anybody.  He didn't pull an Enron and cheat thousands of employees out of their pensions while ruining a company after price gouging the State of California for energy charges.  He didn't swindle a bunch of old ladies out of their life savings thru dubious and crooked investment schemes.  These are the things that in my opinion would really make someone a pariah.

He was found guilty of running a house of prostitution, with his wife as the main attraction, under the guise of a newage religion.  Sounds to me like she was in on the show and not coerced.  It's hardly a flattering situation, not something to be proud of, probably not the kind of people most of us would want to associate with, but at the same time, in the scope of what terrible things people have done, it's not all that huge.  It hardly suggests that he's a true wackjob who's every word should be automatically doubted.  

He made some dumb choices in life, he has stood before the courts and answered for that and taken some embarrassing publicity for it.  But that doesn't mean everything else that he has said and done in life is folly.


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## Danjo (Oct 30, 2006)

Flying Crane said:


> well, I'll agree to disagree. He may be a wacko, but I'm not a psychiatrist so I can't formally diagnose that and unless you are a psychiatrist, neither can you. It's just personal opinion.
> 
> .


 
You don't have to be a wheather man to know which way the wind is blowing.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 30, 2006)

Danjo said:


> You don't have to be a wheather man to know which way the wind is blowing.


 

There's a difference between making poor, even stupid choices, and being a nutcase.  I've never met the guy, I'm in no position to judge.

Kenpo past and present has some colorful characters in it.  Enjoy it for what it is.


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## John Bishop (Oct 30, 2006)

One thing good about the internet. No matter how far fetched your beliefs may be, if you search long enough you'll find something on the net to support you.
A common thing many so-called researchers do is sprinkle just enough truths in their statements to make the rest of the story seem accurate.
Good research should consist of examining all sources, with the most weight being given to first hand accounts that are supported by documents, events, or other eye witnesses. 
Many people like to push the credibility and character of the story teller to the side, as long as his/her story supports their personel beliefs or agenda. 
It's pretty sad that the common sense and good judgement that most people use in their everyday lives, is not also used in their martial arts lives. If someone was approached by a salesman with a investment offer, the smart person would check into the salesman's credibility, and his reputation for truthfullness before believing his claims and investing their money. Yet, when martial arts history is put forward by people with known histories of untruthfulness, fraudulent schemes, and even criminal records, it's unquestioned. 
Some of Will Tracy's historical accounts appear to be accurate, according to some people involved in these events. Some claims are truly incorrect, although this may not be intentional. And some claims _appear_ to be totally fabricated.  
One claim that _appears_ to be fabricated is the claim that James Mitose's sister, Clara Mitose (aka Fusae Oshita) was also a kenpo grandmaster teaching in Hawaii in the 50's-60's. People like Bruce Juchnik and myself have interviewed many students of James Mitose and William Chow. Mr. Juchnik even has video tapes of some of his interviews availiable for sale. First generation Mitose students like Thomas Young, Antoine Krutchy, Paul Yamaguichi have been interviewed. First generation students of William Chow, like Adriano Emperado, Ed Parker, Fred Lara, Bill Chun Sr., have been interviewed. Thomas Mitose, Wally Jay, Sig Kufferath, and others who knew Mitose have been interviewed many times. *Not one *of these people support the story of Mitose's sister being a kenpo instructor, let alone a kenpo grandmaster.
The one thing the internet has done is given people who never had the credibility to be taken seriously by magazine editors and book publishers, the ability to put forward all the false claims, far fetched notions, and revisionist history they choose.


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## Sigung86 (Oct 30, 2006)

Hi John,

For what it may be worth.  There either is, or was a page on the Tracy website wherein Al Tracy met Fusae Oshita, I believe.  I haven't really looked in a good long while.  Kenpo Dave has a better memory than I on that stuff, anyway.  In the interview she, apparently, validated much of the information regarding Mitosé.  At least enough to make Mr. Tracy feel that it was all correct.

As I have said before, having suffered the slings and arrows of questioning those issues while on the inside of the organization, I no longer have a dog in this hunt ... Nor an organization, so it would seem .... :lol:

 It is interesting to see, essentially, the same material that was on the original Tracy website, back a bunch of years ago, but without all the use of the large words and pointed barbs at Ed Parker.  It does make for an interesting, if, however, stilted set of observation.

And, as an aside to Michael of Flying Crane fame ... I think what Danjo is trying to say is that Leopards don't change their spots.  If you would, for whatever reason, not do your dirty dishes, what gives anyone cause to believe that you would be religious about scrubbing your toilet?  All we really have to go on is the observable actions and reactions of any given moment.  That, along with the fact that, at any given moment, we are dealing with life and its various subtleties, with the best tools we have available, would lead one to believe that someone who might play loose and fast with his wife and the supposed sanctity of marriage, would not appear to be to quick to be above the board with his facts.  Of course, it was this observation and attitude, on my part, that got me started down the road of evil and so on ... :lol:


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## John Bishop (Oct 30, 2006)

Sigung86 said:


> Hi John,
> 
> For what it may be worth.  There either is, or was a page on the Tracy website wherein Al Tracy met Fusae Oshita, I believe.  I haven't really looked in a good long while.  Kenpo Dave has a better memory than I on that stuff, anyway.  In the interview she, apparently, validated much of the information regarding Mitosé.  At least enough to make Mr. Tracy feel that it was all correct.



I think I recall seeing that on his website, or in the old "Tracy's Newsflash" he use to send me in the 80s-90s.  Don't know if it is still on the website or not.  But I do seem to recall that the converstion/interview occurred in the 80's or 90's.  
What I'm saying is that people who were there in the 40's-50's, and affliated with Mitose, never saw or heard of her.  The group that were  Kenpo black belts in Hawaii in the 40's-50's was extremely small.  In fact in the late 40's you could count them on one hand and have 1 finger left.  James Mitose only promoted 2 people to black belt in the 40's.  The others were promoted in the early 50's.  William Chow only promoted 1 person to black belt before 1950.  Now some one has come up with the claim that this sister is the woman in Mitose's book doing techniques.  Even though people who were there when the book was being written, knew the woman in the book as Mitose's girlfriend.
In the 80's-90's I had conversations with Thomas Young about Mitose, his students, and his school.  This sister was never mentioned as one of the instructors, black belts, or students.  At that time I put Tim Toeniskotter (sp) in touch with Young also, since he had contacted me about kenpo research.  Tim later provided me with copies of the letters he exchanged with Young (which I still have).  Again, no mention of any other Mitose's being involved in the kenpo scene in Hawaii.  
I don't know if Tim is still affliated with the Tracy group, but I've seen no mention in their websites of the fact that in a letter to Tim dated 8-5-93, Thomas Young said that Mitose taught them the "naihanchi katas from karate, and the jujitsu hand arts".


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## Kenpodoc (Oct 31, 2006)

The most dangerous lies are half-truths.  Because some of what is said is verifiable people are tempted to believe everything.  Will Tracy's stuff is written in an apparent attempt to slander Mr. Parker.  It has just enough truth to keep popping back up on line.  

Jeff


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## Hand Sword (Nov 1, 2006)

True, and, unfortunately, it goes both ways, from slander to Idolize. I guess that's true, in general, of all topics. Somewhere in the middle is the real truth. It's getting harder to find, though, as more time passes.


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## HKphooey (Nov 1, 2006)

Hand Sword said:


> True, and, unfortunately, it goes both ways, from slander to Idolize. I guess that's true, in general, of all topics. Somewhere in the middle is the real truth. It's getting harder to find, though, as more time passes.


 
That is why I concentrate on my training, not the politics.


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## Flying Crane (Nov 1, 2006)

Sigung86 said:


> And, as an aside to Michael of Flying Crane fame ... I think what Danjo is trying to say is that Leopards don't change their spots...


 
Well, that is often true but I hesitate to apply it across the board without good reason.  I don't know Will Tracy and have no other knowledge of him.  From what I understand, his little house of prostitution situation took place a number of years ago.  Perhaps he has gotten himself on a better path since then.  Obviously, I don't know one way or the other, nor do I really care.

As far as his writings on Kenpo History, I certainly understand that much of what he writes is often disputed.  I am not trying to be Mr. Tracy's Champion, here on Martialtalk.  I realize that what he writes, entertaining as it may be, needs to be taken with a grain of salt.  Like I stated earlier, how much of it is truth and how much is fabricated, I am sure we will never know for sure.  

But I choose to not let my opinion of his kenpo writings be influenced by his personal legal problems.  I prefer to consider those issues separate.  That's just how I see it.

My concern was with the tone of the thread from the beginning.  Many are quick to jump on those who say a negative word about Mr. Parker.  OK, I agree, it's bad form to criticize or degrade someone who isn't here to defend himself, and it's also bad form to foster animosity between different schools of kenpo.  It's politics and it's silly and pointless and the later generations should just move on and not worry about it.  Unless you were there and directly affected by the events that happened 40 years ago, it shouldn't bother you and it shouldn't mean anything to you.  

Yet sometimes I see the same people who are so quick to defend Mr. Parker, freely criticize and deride others, and I think that's just plain wrong.  It's a two-way street.  If the Parker defenders want respect for Mr. Parker (as they rightfully deserve), then they need to be willing to give the respect to others as well.  I think by calling attention to Mr. Tracy's website, if the intention was to poke fun and take cheap shots at him, is stupid politics and is dishonorable.  If my impression of the poster's intentions were mistaken, then I apoligize, but that is how it looked to me.

Kenpo as a whole has a lot of skeletons in the closet as well as a few colorful characters.  In a way, they are all part of the same family, and unfortunately you can't pick and choose who your family members are.  We are stuck with each other, like it or not.  We may not agree about everything (or even anything), but we are all part of the same community in some way or other and I just think a little decency is in order.


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## Danjo (Nov 1, 2006)

Flying Crane said:


> Well, that is often true but I hesitate to apply it across the board without good reason. I don't know Will Tracy and have no other knowledge of him. From what I understand, his little house of prostitution situation took place a number of years ago. Perhaps he has gotten himself on a better path since then. Obviously, I don't know one way or the other, nor do I really care.
> 
> As far as his writings on Kenpo History, I certainly understand that much of what he writes is often disputed. I am not trying to be Mr. Tracy's Champion, here on Martialtalk. I realize that what he writes, entertaining as it may be, needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Like I stated earlier, how much of it is truth and how much is fabricated, I am sure we will never know for sure.
> 
> ...


 
Michael,
while I can see your point to a certain extent, I still feel that some things cannot be just left alone. When someone comes out and writes articles for the general public to read, then they are going to come under scrutiny. When someone says things that are untrue they should be challenged on them. Otherwise their story stands and is repeated and eventually so clouds the true events and history that it makes it nigh unto impossible for future students to get an accurate picture of things.

One of the criteria for evaluating someone's writings etc. is credibility. When one has been shown to believe things like say, that his wife was a re-incarnated goddess from Egypt and that she needed to be worshiped by having over 2000 men have sex with her, I tend to doubt that person's grip on reality. When he makes claims about people that he trained with that are found nowhere else, and that he provides no evidence for aside from his own recollections, that further strains his credibility. 

Who else has made claims, for instance, that James Mitose's sister, Fusae Oshita was a Kenpo Great Grandmaster? Where is the evidence for that? Or his other sister either? the only place one finds this stuff is in Will Tracy's articles. Does he provide documentation to prove these assertions? NOPE. But again, when I read that he thought that his wife was a re-incarnated sex goddess, it doesn't reall ysurprise me that he thought that Fusae Oshita was a Kenpo Great Grandmaster Either. It does not, however, make me likely to believe either one.


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## Carol (Nov 1, 2006)

For all the blustering that Wil Tracy and Al Tracy do about others not following Asian traditions...they seem to be conveniently ignoring two venerated Asian tradtions themselves:  the customs of not speaking ill of one's contemporaries, and not speaking ill of the dead.


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## Flying Crane (Nov 1, 2006)

Danjo said:


> Michael,
> while I can see your point to a certain extent, I still feel that some things cannot be just left alone. When someone comes out and writes articles for the general public to read, then they are going to come under scrutiny. When someone says things that are untrue they should be challenged on them. Otherwise their story stands and is repeated and eventually so clouds the true events and history that it makes it nigh unto impossible for future students to get an accurate picture of things.
> 
> One of the criteria for evaluating someone's writings etc. is credibility. When one has been shown to believe things like say, that his wife was a re-incarnated goddess from Egypt and that she needed to be worshiped by having over 2000 men have sex with her, I tend to doubt that person's grip on reality. When he makes claims about people that he trained with that are found nowhere else, and that he provides no evidence for aside from his own recollections, that further strains his credibility.
> ...


 

Danjo,

You've made some good points and I can appreciate that.  It makes sense to look at what he has written and posted for the world to see.  It also makes sense to dispute what he has written if you have a good reason to believe he is wrong.  That is part of what free press and whatnot is all about.  You can write what you want, but others are also free to debate you and dispute your writings.

I just didn't want to see this thread turn into a roast, and foster some kind of arguments between the Tracy and Epak camps here on MT, or something.  I think good discussion, debate, and even argument are possible without it degenerating into nonsense.  Reasonable adults certainly ought to be able to do that.

As far as establishing credibility of a witness, this is done all the time in courtroom trials.  When a witness is brought forward to testify, the other side points out every misstep that witness ever took in the past, as a way to cast doubt upon their integrity.  This certainly works in the courtroom.  When you have a witness testifying against a drug dealer, but that witness himself has a history of being a drug dealer, it makes you question what he might possibly have to gain by testifying against another drug dealer.  Perhaps the police have cut an immunity deal with him in exchange for his testimony, and for that immunity, he might be willing to tell any lie the police want him to tell, so they can catch the bigger fish.  On the other hand, he might be telling the truth.  Just because he also was a drug dealer doesn't automatically mean he testimony against another drug dealer is nothing but lies and deception.

I sort of see it in the same light with Mr. Tracy.  He had an incident, a number of years ago, involving his newage religion and what amounted to a prostitution scam with his wife.  OK, shame on him.  This does cast doubt upon his integrity, perhaps it makes some people wonder about his mental stability, but as far as I know (which isn't very far in this case) his mental stability wasn't ever brought into question in the case.  And it had nothing to do with his kenpo.  So I personally don't like to use that incident to automatically label him a nutcase and dismiss everything he writes.  I'd rather debunk or accept his writing on its own merit, rather than based on his private legal problems.  Everyone will have their own opinion on this, I understand.  But that's my position.

Incidentally, with regard to your comment about the need to challenge a false story so that that story doesn't become established as the truth, and misleads the next generations.  This is exactly what Mr. Tracy claims to be doing.  He claims that Mr. Parker has mislead the public, and he is trying to set the record straight.  Again, I'm not trying to champion his cause, nor am I suggesting that I believe his story.  It's just an interesting perspective to see him using the same arguments that others are using to debunk him.

What I wish would happen is that the few others who are still around who were among Mr. Parker's earliest students, would weigh in on this.  Since this is all Will's writing, I wish Al Tracy and Jim Tracy would give their input on this.  Maybe they can't for family reasons, just don't want to get into a fight with their brother or something, if they disagree, I don't know.  I wish Chuck Sullivan would give his side of the story, regarding the early days as well.  Any of the other guys from the 1950s, guys who were there even before people like Doc.  I understand Doc was very close to Mr. Parker, but he wasn't there in the earliest days, and he didn't witness firsthand what happened.  He only knows by second hand from what Mr. Parker may have told him.  And as has been pointed out, Mr. Parker is no longer here to weigh in on the matters.

Anyway, I appreciate the reasonable responses.


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## Flying Crane (Nov 1, 2006)

Carol Kaur said:


> For all the blustering that Wil Tracy and Al Tracy do about others not following Asian traditions...they seem to be conveniently ignoring two venerated Asian tradtions themselves: the customs of not speaking ill of one's contemporaries, and not speaking ill of the dead.


 

First of all, I think this is all Will Tracy, and I don't think Al Tracy is involved.  I do wish Al would speak up and either endorse or denounce what Will says, but that doesn't seem to be happening.  On the other hand, silence can be seen as acceptance.  I don't know.

I don't think these are Asian customs, nor customs associated with the martial arts.  Many people in the past challenged others to establish their dominance in the area as a martial arts instructor.  I think there was little restraint in speaking ill of other instructors in order to further one's own cause.  I think our notions of not speaking ill of others is really a more modern idea of courtesy and manners, whether here in the West, or in Asia.

I don't think disputing what a deceased person has said is automatically bad manners.  I think it depends on the tone taken and how the arguments are presented.  It can certainly be done in a disrespectful way and perhaps Will Tracy crosses this line at times.  On the other hand, he also says some very flattering things about Mr. Parker.  He paints a glowing picture of Mr. Parker's skill and talent as a martial artist.  I think it is OK to dispute what a deceased person has said, so long as it is done in a respectful way.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Nov 1, 2006)

My propensity is to agree with Carol on this one; and not just because she's a cute little badarse and a good shot.

In my exposure to the versions of Shinto I grew up around in Hawaii (shugendo, mostly...a combination of shinto and buddhism), the dead don't leave. They are with us still, aiding us, inspiring us, watching us, and even judging our worthinness of their attention/assistance. This made it poor form to speak poorly of them, as you could count on Oba-chama not helping you on that math test by reminding you how to do long division.

I don't want to put my nose up anybody's behind, including Parkers. I don't see the truth of it. If I did, the delivery would still be in poor form.

Having been through it before, and going through it again, I doubt this is the last time we will be exposed to Mr. Tracy's particular take on revisionist history.

Best Regards,

Dave


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## Flying Crane (Nov 1, 2006)

Well, I don't think there is any reason to speak disrespectfully of Mr. Parker, even tho I can accept someone disputing what Mr. Parker might have said or done.  Like I said, dispute or disagreement can be done respectfully.

On another note, I have seen people speak less than respectfully about James Mitose, for example, who is also deceased and not here to defend himself.  If it is a true Asian tradition to not speak poorly of the deceased, then it seems to me like it is a tradition that gets selectively applied.  This is what I am talking about when I say respect has to be a two-way street.

Enough said on my part.  If there is some meaningful discussion that can be had about Will Tracy's website, I don't mean to stand in the way of it.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Nov 1, 2006)

Flying Crane said:


> Well, I don't think there is any reason to speak disrespectfully of Mr. Parker, even tho I can accept someone disputing what Mr. Parker might have said or done. Like I said, dispute or disagreement can be done respectfully.
> 
> On another note, I have seen people speak less than respectfully about James Mitose, for example, who is also deceased and not here to defend himself. If it is a true Asian tradition to not speak poorly of the deceased, then it seems to me like it is a tradition that gets selectively applied. This is what I am talking about when I say respect has to be a two-way street.
> 
> Enough said on my part. If there is some meaningful discussion that can be had about Will Tracy's website, I don't mean to stand in the way of it.


 
As one who has made disparaging remarks against the passed-on, and will likely again before my own time has come...good point.

D.


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## Danjo (Nov 1, 2006)

Flying Crane said:


> Danjo,
> 
> You've made some good points and I can appreciate that. It makes sense to look at what he has written and posted for the world to see. It also makes sense to dispute what he has written if you have a good reason to believe he is wrong. That is part of what free press and whatnot is all about. You can write what you want, but others are also free to debate you and dispute your writings.
> 
> ...


 
Let's break this down then. Where is the proof in Will Tracy's articles? Where is the notarized shodan he supposedly got from Prof. Chow? Where are the photos or certificates from this mysterious Fusae Oshita? I think he's making this stuff up out of whole cloth. I don't think he was promoted by Prof. Chow, nor do I think Fusae Oshita was a Kenpo teacher.

Your example of a drug adict telling the truth is fine, but it doesn't apply IMHO. The reason is that there may well be truthful drug adicts who are not delusional. However, when someone prostitutes his wife because he thinks she's a goddess, I think that he may well be equally delusional in thinking that Oshita was a Kenpo Great Grandmaster. Will Tracy has made unsubstantiated claims regarding his training with Chow and Fusae Oshita. I for one would like to see some evidence.

As to Al Tracy, he used to have all of these articles on his own webpage, so I think we can figure out where he stands on all of this.


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## hongkongfooey (Nov 1, 2006)

Some snippets from Will Tracy that he forgot to put on his new site.

This article shows his real feelings towards those of us that do American Kenpo. In my opinion, his new site still displays the same attitude. 

As far as I know, Mr. Tracy never studied American Kenpo. For if he did, he would notice that many of the techniques and forms are almost the same. 

I am the first to admit that there is some really bad American Kenpo out there. But the same can be said of Tracy's Kenpo, as well as every other art out there. 

http://www.sanjosekenpo.com/kenpovsamericankenpo.htm


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## Flying Crane (Nov 1, 2006)

*quote=hongkongfooey*

*Some snippets from Will Tracy that he forgot to put on his new site.*

*This article shows his real feelings towards those of us that do American Kenpo. In my opinion, his new site still displays the same attitude*. 

You are right, he takes a very judgemental stance.  It's really kind of weird because in his various articles he says some very flattering things about Mr. Parker's abilities as a martial artist, but then claims everything Mr. Parker did to change the art was wrong and it became "junk" somehow.  His message is very mixed and often inconsistent, and at times comes across as hostile.  I agree, his tone and presentation can cross the line of good manners and becomes disrespectful.  I think whatever his message is, it could have been at least presented more reasonably.

*As far as I know, Mr. Tracy never studied American Kenpo. For if he did, he would notice that many of the techniques and forms are almost the same.* 

I believe you are correct, he never studied what the art became, as American Kenpo.  He only learned the earlier art, which he referrs to as Kenpo Karate, or Traditional Kenpo.  Yes, many techs are very similar, even the same in some cases, as well as the forms.  But things are also different.  The AK system has a much reduced tech list, compared to the older system.  I think the basic training philosophy may have some differences, tho not having studied AK myself, I can't comment with any specifics.  They are not the same, and I believe Mr. Tracy never learned the newer system.

*I am the first to admit that there is some really bad American Kenpo out there. But the same can be said of Tracy's Kenpo, as well as every other art out there*. 

No argument here.


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## Flying Crane (Nov 1, 2006)

*quote=Danjo*

*Let's break this down then. Where is the proof in Will Tracy's articles? Where is the notarized shodan he supposedly got from Prof. Chow? Where are the photos or certificates from this mysterious Fusae Oshita? I think he's making this stuff up out of whole cloth. I don't think he was promoted by Prof. Chow, nor do I think Fusae Oshita was a Kenpo teacher.*

I don't know the answer to these things.  Was anybody in the habit of having a rank certificate notarized?  I've never seen, nor heard of that as a practice, but maybe some schools did/do this.  As to the other things, not everything in life gets documented.  Sometimes it just comes down to the word of someone who was there and claims to have seen what happened.  Maybe he is just making some of these things up.  If others who were there can dispute these claims, well then that's an argument.  I honestly don't know, and again, I'm not trying to take his side in the argument.  He claims he was there and this is what happened.  OK, I simply take that as his story.  I suspect at least parts of it aint all true, but I am not in a position to prove any of it one way or the other.  Other people dispute these things, and again, if another witness claims it isnt true, OK, that's another side of the story that I am willing to simply take as just that: another side of the story.

*However, when someone prostitutes his wife because he thinks she's a goddess...*

I didn't get the impression from your link that he actually thought of his wife as a goddess.  With many religions, the leaders act as a representative of the deity (a priest in a Catholic church represents Christ, but is not thought to BE Christ).  I'm not defending his "religion", either.  Sounds like a prostitution racket, as I stated earlier, not something to be proud of.  If he actually manipulated his wife into it, if she was not a willing participant, that is further cause for shame.  But again, this had nothing to do with his kenpo.  I personally choose to keep the two items separate.  Sure, I have a glimpse into his character from his prostitution issue and to some degree that will always affect how I see what else he may do; but I essentially choose to not discount the one simply because of the other.  I may ultimately discount the one, but I will do that on its own merits.

*As to Al Tracy, he used to have all of these articles on his own webpage, so I think we can figure out where he stands on all of this*.

Well I never saw that, but if that's true it's too bad.  They aren't there anymore, not sure what caused the change.  Maybe he realized it had gone too far and he didn't want to be promoting that.  I obviously don't know, and I'm not in a position to judge Al Tracy over that.


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## John Bishop (Nov 1, 2006)

Flying Crane said:


> *quote=Danjo*
> 
> *As to Al Tracy, he used to have all of these articles on his own webpage, so I think we can figure out where he stands on all of this*.
> 
> Well I never saw that, but if that's true it's too bad.  They aren't there anymore, not sure what caused the change.  Maybe he realized it had gone too far and he didn't want to be promoting that.  I obviously don't know, and I'm not in a position to judge Al Tracy over that.



From what I recall from the time, Will Tracy designed and adminstered the first "Tracy's" website.  When he started to put up these "recollections" of his, his brother Al separated himself from the website and created his own, which he has now.  He has never publically endorsed these writings of Will, and does not have them on his own website.


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## donald (Nov 2, 2006)

In reply to the simularities of Tracy Kenpo, and EPAK. I watched  a video that Al Tracy made available a number of yrs. ago. It was of a Mr.Keith Curtz testing for upper dan ranking. They covered every tek, the(kicks etc.) basics, and forms through(I believe) 3rd black.  In viewing this you can see alot of simularities, and differences in these systems. The biggest difference I am aware of. Is the application of some of the teks, and katas. For example, the stance changes through out the test were pretty much m.i.a.. Now if this was a result of his particular instructor, or of the system itself. I really don't know. I originally began training at a Tracy studio, and they were very much on top of good application. As pertaining to the katas, etc.. I do have to mention that Mr.Curtz showed incredible stamina, as well as stellar kicking ability. Even after apprx.30 or minutes into the test! Which at that mark had a looonnnggggg way to go. I hope this was helpful?
By GOD's Grace,
(1stJohn1:9)


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## Flying Crane (Nov 2, 2006)

John Bishop said:


> From what I recall from the time, Will Tracy designed and adminstered the first "Tracy's" website. When he started to put up these "recollections" of his, his brother Al separated himself from the website and created his own, which he has now. He has never publically endorsed these writings of Will, and does not have them on his own website.


 

Thanks for that note, Mr. Bishop.  And by the way, your earlier post was interesting as well, wherein you mention interviewing others who were in Hawaii at the time who had never heard of some of the people Will Tracy mentions.  I think if Mr. Tracy's message is to be disputed, this is the kind of information that is necessary.  It sort of becomes one person's word against others, and if others who were there have given a different story, then at least there is something to dispute it with.  That is the kind of information that I can accept as a viable avenue of dispute.  Thanks for contributing.


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## John Bishop (Nov 2, 2006)

Moderators Note:

Right now this topic is being discussed on at least 4 forums.  
Because this forum represents the most diverse group of kenpo practitioners on the net, we can discuss these types of topics without all the name calling and deleting that is going on at a couple of the other forums.  
People at this forum actually want to learn, instead of putting forward a agenda.  
This forum allows people to present arguments, sources of research, and opinions.  And all that information is allowed to be weighed, and considered for it's worth.  In other words, you can believe it or not.
Unlike one of the other forums that deletes anything that dosen't agree with thier agenda.  NOBODY'S POSTS HERE ARE DELETED, UNLESS THEY ARE IN DIRECT VIOLATION OF THE MEMBERSHIP AGREEMENT. 
Unlike another forum where a senior member's intelligent well thought out argument against any disagreement is, "you can kiss my a--" .  Nobody here is called names or insulted because they have a differant point of view, or their argument/findings don't agree with someone else's.  I know the majority of our members here have more class then that, and are more cognizant of the example they are setting  for everyone reading these posts.


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## Sigung86 (Nov 2, 2006)

Not to schmooze with anyone Mr. Bishop (Most everyone knows me better than that), but you are correct.  I've done a hit-and-run on the "other" forum, fully expecting to catch Holy Heck.

I've only posted on bit on this thread, mainly because it's easy to see everyone elses viewpoint as well as my own, whether I believe in it or not.

I'm speaking only for myself, but believe that I echo many others in saying that I'm glad to be here.

Other than that, this is a pretty pointless post. :lfao:


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## Flying Crane (Nov 2, 2006)

Sigung86 said:


> Other than that, this is a pretty pointless post. :lfao:


 
I see you must be craving rank, here on Martialtalk, and have sunk to padding your post count in whatever way possible...


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## Flying Crane (Nov 2, 2006)

By the way, I'd be curious to know what other forums this is being discussed on.  I don't frequent any other forums except for Kenpotalk, and the thread there has been pretty cordial so far.  I'd be curious to see the mayhem going on elsewhere, so if anyone would be so kind as to post a link, I'd be grateful.  thx.


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## hongkongfooey (Nov 2, 2006)

It's on the KenpoNet, posting on the subject has stopped.

Martial Arts Planet

Tracy's San Jose

Here

Kenpo Talk


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## Carol (Nov 2, 2006)

Flying Crane said:


> By the way, I'd be curious to know what other forums this is being discussed on. I don't frequent any other forums except for Kenpotalk, and the thread there has been pretty cordial so far. I'd be curious to see the mayhem going on elsewhere, so if anyone would be so kind as to post a link, I'd be grateful. thx.


 
Unfortunately I can't post a link to a discussion thread that's already been yanked.


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## Danjo (Nov 2, 2006)

Well, no one that I have talked to regarding this matter has ever heard of Will Tracy training with Prof. Chow, nor have they heard of his sister having anything to do with Kenpo in any way.

It would be nice if Mr. Tracy would actually provide some evidence that what he is saying is true.

I've been acused of "having an agenda" on other sites. How they think this is beyond me. What possible value would it be to me one way or another? The art I study has nothing to do with Tracy's Kenpo. What I _am_ interested is the truth. I like to get to the bottom of things and not be fed a bunch of lies.

For me it goes back to my blue belt test at the USSD. Master Carter was asking us students about Shaolin Kempo history and he got to the point where he asked, "WHo was Professor Mattera's teacher?" I answered, "Fred Villari." I got a really mean look and was practically barked at, "No! It was Professor Cerio!" Well, I then knew it was BS and I have been on a mission ever since to get accurate answers and call people on unsubstantiated stories or those that are exagerated out of all proportion. When I am met with condecension or hostility, then I get pretty much in attack mode.

When people make far out claims and then offer no proof, I think it's encumbant upon them to provide some sort of substantiation for their claims. I don't see any in Wilbur Tracy's account of history.


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## Flying Crane (Nov 2, 2006)

hongkongfooey said:


> It's on the KenpoNet, posting on the subject has stopped.
> 
> Martial Arts Planet
> 
> ...


 

Well bummer.  I'm sitting here at work, and all these forums with the exception of Martialtalk and Kenpotalk are blocked by my company's filters on profanity and violent content and whatnot.  Well what does that tell ya?

I guess I'll have to check these when I get home.


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## IWishToLearn (Nov 2, 2006)

Well he sure does have a lot to say.


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## Sigung86 (Nov 2, 2006)

Flying Crane said:


> I see you must be craving rank, here on Martialtalk, and have sunk to padding your post count in whatever way possible...



Hmmmm... Let's see .....

Me:  Joined March 2002 - 794 posts = 784/56 (approx months) = 14 posts/month

Flying Dragon:

Joined Sep 2005 - 2,314 posts = 2,314/13 (approx months) = 178 posts/month

Hmmm.... And they call me a post rank Dawg! %-}:lfao::lfao::lfao:

Don't be offended Bro... Just kidding.  You think this is bad, you ought to see my post on Lowering the Gate.  :lol:


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## Flying Crane (Nov 3, 2006)

Sigung86 said:


> Hmmmm... Let's see .....
> 
> Me: Joined March 2002 - 794 posts = 784/56 (approx months) = 14 posts/month
> 
> ...


 


:asian:


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