# The pizza terminator



## OULobo (Jun 1, 2004)

Pizza man defends life in hold-up and is released by virtue of self-defense only to be fired by Pizza Hut. 

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38726

The company doesn't seem to care about the safety of it's employees, only the PR effect and liability of armed delivery men.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 1, 2004)

Its sadly a clear case of the guy violated company policy, so was fired.  Most employers have a similar policy.

I do however agree, since he did nothing criminally wrong that PH shouldn't have released him.

Years back, I was working for a local supermarket.  While on a break, one of my coworkers husbands came up to me and started threatening me.  He was quite drunk at the time.  Eventually he left, but there were some tense moments.  As he was leaving the manager on duty finally showed up and asked what had happened. When it was explained, and witnesses verified it as true, I asked point blank if I was attacked and had defended myself if I would have been fired.

The answer was yes.  For "Fighting on company time" and "Assaulting a customer".

Un-FN-Believable.

Yup, die for the company...not this geek.



btw: I stopped eating at greesy-hut years back, after I found my local places soaked their pies in oil...well, that and a case of food poisoning as well...


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## OULobo (Jun 1, 2004)

Best part of the article- "Rick Whitham, an Indianapolis attorney. . . wrote to the company: "I don't spend my money with businesses that openly discriminate against people such as myself who understand that the police have no affirmative duty to protect any particular citizen and that no company is worth dying for  particularly yours." 


Another good one- "I hope those of you in the media will realize the incredible unfairness of a huge company telling its employees  in essence  they must agree to die for the company rather than use legal reasonable means to defend themselves," 

Policy. . . .pffft.


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## shesulsa (Jun 1, 2004)

Un-fn-believable is right!  I worked as a security guard for a while, doing my teacher's friend a favor - and was unarmed - and I quit when I realized two things about pizza delivery:

#1  it was a more dangerous job than guarding a security post is and...
#2  it pays a heck of a lot more!
Carry on, my wayward son...there was peace when you were done!


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## KenpoTex (Jun 2, 2004)

I have to agree that this is a load of B.S.  On the one hand I realize that companies like Pizza Hut are just trying to protect themselves from lawsuits but it gets a little ridiculous in situations like this.  I once worked for a security company (I quit after 2 months) that didn't allow the officers to carry _anything_.  No guns, batons, O.C. spray...nothing.  We really weren't even supposed to carry knives.  I don't know of anyone that actually abided by those rules, I certainly didn't...I'd rather be job-less than dead.  Thankfully the company I work for now doesn't care what you carry, in fact, when I got hired the owner asked me "you _are_ planning on carrying a gun aren't you?" (a gun, ME? perish the thought )


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## MA-Caver (Jun 2, 2004)

Pizza delivery can be very dangerous depending upon the neighborhood you're delivering in... 
I had a gun (a nice .45) pointed IN my face (barrel was tickling my nose) because the "owner" of the house didn't know someone else ordered pizza, and he thought I was a cop doing a bust... (ya it turned out to be some dealers house with a stoner getting the munchies and ordering pizza without telling anybody) 
I was in such shock that I was calm and level talking with the guy and the (stoner) managed to "ohh yeah!" and came to the door to show I was legit and paid for the pizza that "I never delivered because I was never there at that address" ... 
Dunno what'd happen if I was armed... but probably nothing since I wouldn't have had time to react. Didn't see the gun he was holding (pizza box was in the way), delivered to that neighborhood before without incident (except for the time a guy almost yarked all over my shoes), and he lifted the gun so quickly and had it in my face before I could even blink.:xtrmshock 
I just stopped delivering to that neighborhood.
Now-a-days I don't do that kind of work anymore. But it was a good experience... probably lost 5 years of my life but a good experience.

I think emptying a clip into someone is a bit excessive though... usually a double tap will do the trick.  From what I read the delivery was juiced up going into this "high-crime" neighborhood and yes he was justified being armed...(sometimes I got so busy that no time to drop off cash and such, I'd end up with about $200-300 bucks cash by the end of the rush).  Just can't see unloading 15 rounds into somebody (yes, only 10 got him)...


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## Ender (Jun 2, 2004)

Yes it's true many companies do not allow employees to carry weapons. However, I was informed that you can ALWAYS defend yourself in an attack. The law states so, and if the company does not provide a safe enviroment and yet still denies you the option to defend yourself, then they may be open to a lawsuit. I could be wrong on this though.


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## KenpoTex (Jun 3, 2004)

MACaver said:
			
		

> I think emptying a clip into someone is a bit excessive though... usually a double tap will do the trick.  From what I read the delivery was juiced up going into this "high-crime" neighborhood and yes he was justified being armed...(sometimes I got so busy that no time to drop off cash and such, I'd end up with about $200-300 bucks cash by the end of the rush).  Just can't see unloading 15 rounds into somebody (yes, only 10 got him)...


  Excessive? I don't know, according to the pizza guy's statement the other guy didn't drop till _after_ he emptied the magazine putting 10 rounds into him in the process.  I have read many stories in which police officers have put multiple rounds into a subject without putting them down (usually b/c they were using a 9mm).  In my mind this guy was right on target (no pun intended) if you have to shoot someone you don't shoot them once or twice and wait to see if anything happens, you continue firing until they hit the ground.  Incidentally, this is the philosophy most LEO's embrace.  In this case, a double tap obviously wouldn't have "done the trick" because it took 10 rounds to put the guy down.  Now if he'd been using a .45 instead of his little "poodle-popper" a double tap probably _would_ have done the trick .


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## theletch1 (Jun 3, 2004)

I saw a review somewhere earlier this year that listed the top ten most dangerous jobs in America.  Pizza delivery was number five on the list.  Expecting someone on that list not to carry anything to protect themselves is ludicrous.  I haven't eaten at Pizza Hut in a long time and after hearing this story will not be eating there again.


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## loki09789 (Jun 3, 2004)

Question is this:  If he was using his own vehicle to deliver pizzas (like the guys around here do) and/or wearing his own clothes (as some do) is that really something the company can dictate?  It is one thing to set a weapons policy in relation to company property and such but here it is the operator's own vehicle.

This is really ridiculous.


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## theletch1 (Jun 3, 2004)

When you deliver pizza in your own vehicle, you become something like an owner/operator in the trucking industry.  The vehicle is yours but you agree to haul their freight and follow their guidelines.  That's how they get to dictate not just silly but often deadly policy while you're in your own vehicle.


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## loki09789 (Jun 3, 2004)

theletch1 said:
			
		

> When you deliver pizza in your own vehicle, you become something like an owner/operator in the trucking industry. The vehicle is yours but you agree to haul their freight and follow their guidelines. That's how they get to dictate not just silly but often deadly policy while you're in your own vehicle.


Thanks for the info.  How hard would you fight for a pizza delivery job in reality, but what kind of legal/civil response does this guy possibly have against the company?  Heck, if I was a local pizza owner, I would snatch him up for advertising purposes at the very least.


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## OULobo (Jun 3, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> Question is this:  If he was using his own vehicle to deliver pizzas (like the guys around here do) and/or wearing his own clothes (as some do) is that really something the company can dictate?  It is one thing to set a weapons policy in relation to company property and such but here it is the operator's own vehicle.
> 
> This is really ridiculous.



Their thoughts are that you are a representative of their company while doing business for them and also they are worried about liability for you actrions while employed by them. If a driver does something wrong, it isn't farfetched for the wronged party to sue the corporation because that's where the money is.


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## OULobo (Jul 26, 2004)

Looks like AOL is getting on the anti-gun bandwagon. 

http://www.nraila.org/CurrentLegislation/Read.aspx?ID=1174

Please note that this is reported on an NRA site, so take it with a grain of salt.


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## Feisty Mouse (Jul 26, 2004)

I read Fast Food Nation by Eric Schlosser and thought it was an excellent book.  He details how the fast food industry has literally changed the American landscape and eating lifestyle.  One of the chapters that I didn't expect at all was about fast food jobs and violence against employees, and company policies that do not help or essentially make the job MORE dangerous.

I can't do justice to his writing, but if anyone's interested, I recommend it.  He didn't address pizza delivery so much as people working in fast food joints behind the counter.  It was shocking.


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## KenpoTex (Jul 27, 2004)

OULobo said:
			
		

> Looks like AOL is getting on the anti-gun bandwagon.
> Please note that this is reported on an NRA site, so take it with a grain of salt.


 It's true *gasp* the NRA correct, perish the thought (sarcasm)

http://www.constitutioncenter.org/explore/ConstitutionNewswire/9085.shtml

http://www.utcourts.gov/opinions/supopin/hansen072004.htm

As far as AOL, they've been on the anti-gun "bandwagon" for years.  I recall hearing a couple of years ago that they were caught progaming their browsers to not display pro-second ammendment sites...don't know if that's true but it wouldn't neccessarily suprise me.


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## OULobo (Jul 27, 2004)

Kenpotex;

Cool avatar! I'm getting a tat of it next week.


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## Silat Student (Sep 5, 2004)

I'll be getting a similar tat in about 7 months kenpo (mine will have the Don't Tread on me Ribbon). It's always been my favorite flag.


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## Gaidheal (Oct 4, 2004)

Well, company can quite reasonably specify such a thing.  Just as they can pass "no smoking" rules that apply whilever you are being paid, not just on company property.

Sadly, what it means in reality is that your only recourse is one of two things - don't work for them or else take them to court on the grounds that they are endangering you as a matter of policy.

As for the specific incident:

15 rounds fired seems overkill to people who don't understand the realities of using a pistol for self defence.  You keep firing till the target drops to the ground or otherwise ceases to be a threat (throws gun away, for example).  As for the slur on 9mm, that is bollocks, plain and simple.  No reason to suspect that he would have dropped any quicker - shot placement not calibre is the key factor in incapacitating someone.  The .45 ACP is larger and so more likely to hit something important than a 9mm if shot placement is not perfect (and let's face it, placement is rarely perfect in practice for most people) but that is the only thing that would give it an edge.  The rest depends not on calibre choice but such things as specific round load, accuracy of shots, mental state of the target and probably others as well.  He could just as easily have been using a .45 ACP, ran out in half the time and still come away fine.  Or he could have dropped him with one lucky shot.  Or he could have fired all his rounds, not dropped the guy and the guy finally figured out his gun was unloaded, corrected that and fired at the pizza guy.  We just don't know because none of those happened.  It is NOT a simple '.45 ACP beats 9mm' situation.  There are no situations like this in real life, it's always grey.

John


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## raedyn (Oct 27, 2004)

So now Pizza Hut empoyees that may have previously ignored the 'no-gun' rule may stop because they realize that their company really will fire them. And it's now publicly acknowledge that their employees don't carry. I wonder if this would make Pizza Hut delivery people more of a target for people wanting to jump delivery guys?


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## OULobo (Oct 27, 2004)

raedyn said:
			
		

> So now Pizza Hut empoyees that may have previously ignored the 'no-gun' rule may stop because they realize that their company really will fire them. And it's now publicly acknowledge that their employees don't carry. I wonder if this would make Pizza Hut delivery people more of a target for people wanting to jump delivery guys?



I would say that it all comes down to something my Pappy used to say, "You can do what you want just don't get caught." This guy got caught, but my guess is that it isn't going to change how many of the employees that carried before are going to carry now. My guess is many won't see pizza delivery as something to risk their lives over, and will carry anyway until they quit or get caught. I know I would.


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## Gaidheal (Oct 27, 2004)

It occurs to me.. the best way to not risk life over the pizza, whilst still actually working for the firm, is simply to hand over the pizza and the cash (if asked) and let them leave.  It's only pizza and/or money at the end of the day and it's not even *their* money, it's the company's.  I suspect this is the official recommendation / policy in fact, though off the record it might be different, since companies tend to be fond of their money and products.

John


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## raedyn (Oct 28, 2004)

Gaidheal said:
			
		

> It's only pizza and/or money at the end of the day and it's not even *their* money, it's the company's.


Well.. that depends. Many pizza places operate their delivery guys as contractors who 'buy' the pizza from the pizza place and 'resell' it to the guy they are delivering it to. Thus the company doesn't have to pay the delivery guy minimum wage. He's paid like peicework and the company isn't obligated to reimburse him. (Get the wrong employee and he could say "they just took the pizza and locked me out and there's nothing I could do" when that's a bunch of lies and he's pocketing what the customer really did pay). Even if the company absorbed the loss that paid for the pizza, the dude would be out all his tips and his float and whatever other $$ or valuables he happened to have on his person.



> I suspect this is the official recommendation / policy in fact, though off the record it might be different, since companies tend to be fond of their money and products.


agreed


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## Gaidheal (Oct 28, 2004)

Aye, good point about the 'self-employed' type delivery guy.  It is a worry for some firms and some do operate that way here too (UK).  Even so.. it's still just money and pizza, even when it is the delivery guy's money and pizza.  Bottom line... is your life worth a $10 pizza plus whatever your float and takings so far comes to?

John


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## OULobo (Oct 28, 2004)

Gaidheal said:
			
		

> Aye, good point about the 'self-employed' type delivery guy.  It is a worry for some firms and some do operate that way here too (UK).  Even so.. it's still just money and pizza, even when it is the delivery guy's money and pizza.  Bottom line... is your life worth a $10 pizza plus whatever your float and takings so far comes to?
> 
> John



Sometimes the pizza and money are just a reason to do something worse. If they are willing to commit armed robbery for pizza and small bills, what is to stop them from stepping up to rape or senseless (read: power tripping) murder. Besides if you get a few pizzas and money stolen, then the company fires you and you might get shot, carry a gun and you might get fired, but you got a better chance at defending yourself. In the end you get fired either way, but only one way you have a decent chance of stopping anything worse from happening.


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## raedyn (Oct 29, 2004)

OULobo said:
			
		

> only one way you have a decent chance of stopping anything worse from happening.


Interesting to me that this would be claimed by a martial artist on a martial arts forum....


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## Tgace (Oct 29, 2004)

Sometimes the bad guys call for a pizza to an isolated location for the sole purpose of killing the carrier (thrill kill stuff). The robbery is an after thought. Thats one of the reasons pizza parlors ask for a phone # for delivery orders.


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## OULobo (Oct 29, 2004)

raedyn said:
			
		

> Interesting to me that this would be claimed by a martial artist on a martial arts forum....



It would take a pretty desperate situation for me to try anything against a guy with a gun pointed at me.


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## Rynocerous (Nov 19, 2004)

I personally believe that this guy should look up in this situation.  If I were in his position I sure the hell wouldn't had given my life to protect the almighty pizza.  Ridiculous, and he shouln't want to continue with the company anyways.


Cheers, 

Ryan


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## OULobo (Dec 10, 2004)

This issue just got re-upped in the media.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/companies/management/2004-12-09-guns-cover_x.htm?csp=1


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## Bob Hubbard (Dec 10, 2004)

Interesting article, raising many points.

Sadly, I can see both sides.


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