# Weight training is TOTAL rubbish for Aikidoka?



## Jenna

Hello all my Aikido peepz  .... not sure how many or few of yall there are here I think I have spoken to you all already but yes the above is a personal opinion of mine but being open to any alternative views I will ask does anyone train weights specifically as an aid to their Aikido? Or if you train weights anyway but NOT for your Aikido then how does your extra strength through muscle mass specifically affect your Aikido technique ??

I ask having been taken this evening to another dojo on invitation and I could not help but notice the amazing physique of some of their gals and guys. Well.... what can I say I am a sucker for looks, ha! and I promise even though I am small and light it is not jealousy when I say I cannot see the merit to weight training as an aid to Aikido technique. 

I understand that the perfect defined figure is something most folk and guys particularly aspire to but personally I do not think extra muscle in particular is a good thing for the Aikidoka female OR male as I think it is detrimental to proper form causing the student to believe they can work a tech by superior strength over their opponent and I think this mindset in Aikido is B A D.. 

I have trained with one or two souls who had VERY little aiki sensitivity because of overdeveloped forearms upper arms delts pecs and all the rest and I think it REALLY shows when moving as nage they cannot adequately trace my movements which is the spiral to nowhere.. I think because of this.. weight training for the Aikidoka is rubbish! But this is of course not to say I am correct in my assertion nope and I would welcome any thoughts on how and why resistance or weights training IS beneficial to the Aikidoka. Thank you 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## MSUTKD

Weight training is EXCELLENT for ALL physical activities, including Aikido.


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## Blotan Hunka

So Akidoka who are already strong should lie in bed for a few months until properly atrophied?


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## Carol

Weight training isn't rubbish Jenna my friend.  In fact, it is very good for the body and particularly beneficial for women.

Fat is burned...not in the intestines, not in the stomach, in the muscle tissues.  More muscle tissue burns more fat ergo less risk for middle age paunch and all kinds of good things.

Weight bearing or load bearing exercises also increase bone density....which is of paramount importance for women as we get older, given our propensity for osteoporosis and other things that make us shrink and give us bad backs and otherwise be rather uncomfortable.

Load-bearing exercises could be jogging or walking uphill, but training with weights ensure a more complete body workout.  

Weight training can be a particular benefit to women, Akidoka or not.  However, there is quite a bit of scariness associated with such a thing. 

Many women are trapped in to thinking that weigths make us look like some muscle-bound steroid-enhanced freak.  Women can pump up naturally but it takes SERIOUSLY HARD training do do so.  I lift regularly and I dare anyone to tell me I look pumped up.  I don't. 

Muscle tissue also weighs more than fat...and unfortunately some women get obsessed with what the numbers on the scale mean...even though women that weight train often look LEANER at a higher weight.  Higher weight from improved muscle tissue, leaner from improved fat burning.

Now...specifically for Akidoka...you use your muscles.  We all do.  To put one foot in front of the other in a walking motion requires muscles.   To raise your hand over your head requires muscles.  To sit upright in your chair requries muscles.  You use your muscles in your techniques, you just don't rely on brute strength.

Muscles are an important part of an everyone's body...including Akidoka. Respect them, and they will return the respect when you need them.


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## green meanie

MSUTKD said:
			
		

> Weight training is EXCELLENT for ALL physical activities, including Aikido.


 
Agreed.


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## Blotan Hunka

"Stay in top physical shape&#8212;physical stamina is the root of mental toughness."

-Major Dick Winters
Easy Company, 506th PIR, 101st Airborne Div.
&#8220;The Band of Brothers&#8221;

I honestly believe that. The fitter you are the tougher (more you can take) you are.


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## Swordlady

What Carol just said.  

Seriously...weight training is highly beneficial for anyone training in the martial arts.  I shouldn't talk; it's been a while since I lifted weights on a regular basis.  But even though I haven't seriously lifted in several years, my arms, legs, and back still have some tone (my abs have seriously gone to pot, though).  I never got "big", even during my undergrad years, when I was lifting at least three times a week.

All this talk about weight training is making me feel guilty about putting it off.  Though I've been feeling rather sore as of late from all of that ukemi...


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## matt.m

I power lifted while in the Marine Corps.  I won 18 gold medals in greco wrestling and earned up to brown 2nd in Judo during this 5 yr time period.  I will say this as truth in my honest opinion.  I got way more out of pull ups than lat pull downs.  I got way more out of swing throughs than back extensions.  I got way more out of horse stance than deadlifts.

I hope you guys see the point I am trying to make, I have seen more people get injured from lifting than working out body weight execises.  I don't care if they are power lifting or not.

I will recommend that if you are going to train with weights then get a gym membership and use the Icarian, Cybex, or whatever pin loaded machine the gym has.  If you are training with load bearing then it is a good idea if you are set in a balanced track.  You are much more likely to stay injury free if using a machine than if you are using free weights.

-Matt


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## samurai69

Jenna said:
			
		

> Hello all my Aikido peepz  .... not sure how many or few of yall there are here I think I have spoken to you all already but yes the above is a personal opinion of mine but being open to any alternative views I will ask does anyone train weights specifically as an aid to their Aikido? Or if you train weights anyway but NOT for your Aikido then how does your extra strength through muscle mass specifically affect your Aikido technique ??
> 
> I ask having been taken this evening to another dojo on invitation and I could not help but notice the amazing physique of some of their gals and guys. Well.... what can I say I am a sucker for looks, ha! and I promise even though I am small and light it is not jealousy when I say I cannot see the merit to weight training as an aid to Aikido technique.
> 
> I understand that the perfect defined figure is something most folk and guys particularly aspire to but personally I do not think extra muscle in particular is a good thing for the Aikidoka female OR male as I think it is detrimental to proper form causing the student to believe they can work a tech by superior strength over their opponent and I think this mindset in Aikido is B A D..
> 
> I have trained with one or two souls who had VERY little aiki sensitivity because of overdeveloped forearms upper arms delts pecs and all the rest and I think it REALLY shows when moving as nage they cannot adequately trace my movements which is the spiral to nowhere.. I think because of this.. weight training for the Aikidoka is rubbish! But this is of course not to say I am correct in my assertion nope and I would welcome any thoughts on how and why resistance or weights training IS beneficial to the Aikidoka. Thank you
> 
> Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
> Jenna


 
so firstly, you say you went to another school where they had great physiques....................how was their aikido

I have practiced aikido for over 10 years and have been lifting weights a lot longer, i havent noticed any loss in sensetivity, my movement and flexibility are still better than a lot of people half my age.


:asian:


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## MartialIntent

Jenna said:
			
		

> Hello all my Aikido peepz  .... not sure how many or few of y&#8217;all there are here I think I have spoken to you all already but yes the above is a personal opinion of mine but being open to any alternative views I will ask does anyone train weights specifically as an aid to their Aikido? Or if you train weights anyway but NOT for your Aikido then how does your extra strength through muscle mass specifically affect your Aikido technique ??


Jenna,
I agree! I think will all due respect, many of the replies you may receive might turn out to be from folk who are perhaps _not_ longtime practicing aikidoka themselves or perhaps will turn out to be from those aikidoka who have been brainwashed along with the rest of the magazine-buying public into the questionable benefits of weight training which has only really come to the collective consciousness in recent years ie. from the early C20th onwards with the likes of Charles Atlas etc [google it]. This "perfect" physique is a modern, western contrived ideal of form over function - especially with regard to our particular art. This is more than apparent from viewing Ueshiba in his earlier days and most of his noteable students who were younger and physically fitter but not typical of todays benchpress fiends - check earlier images of Kenji Tomiki or Gozo Shioda or *any* of the old MA footages from that same early-mid C20th period - ain't no toned bods there! [and for the best comparison of all, see any of the figure works of the Italian renaissance, which simply shows that our modern muscular standard is nothing more than a fashion]. 

But with specific reference to the Aikidoka, yes I agree totally and from experience similar to your own it's fairly apparent that muscle mass and sensitivity as you put it, are *inversely* proportional. And although there's no reason as someone facetiously suggested that all aikidoka lie in bed awaiting muscular atrophy, likewise training for mass is an irrelevance and an extra barrier to overcome for any aikidoka interested in having this crucial sensitivity to his or her opponent's movement. Sure it's all great to develop the biggest triceps you can so you can punch not your opponent's face but right through to the back of their head, but as we know, Aikido ain't exactly about that. So fair enough, while it's probably a key thing for the big hitting destructive arts, Aikido no.

In fact, although it's proof by anecdote only, *none* of my highest ranking masters conform in any way to that perfectly defined muscularity. Some are a little overweight by accepted standards, most are older [wiser] and definitely *all* have long since dropped the notion of weight training as beneficial to their Aikido practice - and in fact as you say, it can be positively detrimental to techniques where practitioners go about *forcing* their way through rather than working on developing the correct *feel* for it. 

On a more positive side of one's Aikido muscular training, the likes of yoga and pilates can be beneficial to overall muscle tone as unlike weight training they are not torturing one's muscle fibres by cyclically destroying/rebuilding them, but rather work to elongate the muscle pairs - which also gives a much more pleasant appearance to the body [imo].

Hope this helps! Well done for thinking about this - just because the majority say so, doesn't mean it's right 

Sincere Respects!


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## Hand Sword

Hi Jenna,

To answer the question of the post-- No, it's not Total Rubbish. You could lift to strenghten up, or firm up without building up huge muscles. Also, Yes, you can keep your flexibility as well.

Natural talent alone does work fine, but added strength and speed definitely adds more to it, no matter what you are doing, Aikido or not.

It's not needed, per se, But, It definitely doesn't hurt, if done correctly.

Try the Bowflex if you don't like weights!


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## pstarr

I think a sensible resistance training program is excellent for overall fitness and is important for those of us over 40   and also for women since it helps improve bone density.

There's no need to strive for a championship weightlifter's physique - but some regular weight training is very, very good for you.


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## samurai69

As i can make out/remember from a lot of bits i have read, all the early students of O sensai trained with weights of some form or another, early pics of tohei show a solid muscular frame


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## Ants

Surely like everything any of us do it is to the degree that you do it.  I can't imagine a Mr Universe styled weight lifter being especially good at Aikido due to lack range of movemnt but then the same could be said for an emmaciated individual who does not have the physical form to complete a throw, take down or wrist lock??.


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## Brian R. VanCise

MSUTKD said:
			
		

> Weight training is EXCELLENT for ALL physical activities, including Aikido.


 
That is right on!

Brian R. VanCise


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## tempus

I actually think weight training is greate thing (Since I just got certified as a personal trainer I am kind of bias).  I, like everyone else focuses on doing every technique perfectly, but it does not happen.  I find that when I do make a mistake the extra strength actually helps me get out of a situation.  Yes, it took some time in the beginning to over come not using strength with Aikido and flow better.  I do, but when things go wrong and I need to restart the momentum I can.

On the other hand, I end up being the Uke rag doll do to size and stregnth because everyone wants to practice or throw the big guy and it looks great when the Sensei is demostrating a technique.

On another note, one of the main reasons I took Aikido was because I know someday my size will go and this is an art that can be accomplished at all sizes.


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## Xue Sheng

Not all weight training is for gaining muscle mass, there are different approaches that help strength and or endurance. It all depends on the weight lifted and the reps done. 

Although I am not am Aikido practitioner, I have spared a few and I have not seen any advantage or disadvantage to weight training or the lack thereof. It all comes down to their teacher, their training partner and how much and how correctly they train.

Weigh training if done in moderation is a good thing, TCM says it help the flow of Qi, western medicine says it helps over all health. Over doing weight training is a bad thing and as previously mentioned dangerous, TCM says it blocks the flow of Qi, western medicine deals with the pains, strains and injuries that are caused by overzealous or incorrect weight training.


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## stickarts

Although i have not done much with Aikido, I have noticed that weight training has helped me in other arts.Being effective is more about proper technique, experience, and mindset than it is about extra muscle, however, I without a doubt have noticed a big advantage over others when i am stronger. It can't make up for poor technique but when all other things are equal, it has helped me to be stronger than the opponent.


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## theletch1

Erica and I both weight train three times a week.  Neither of us are lifting with the idea of power lifting or performance body building in mind.  We train for lean muscle, stamina and general health (also it's an addictive endorphin high).  My instructor is a big guy, lots of muscle but can tell you in the middle of a tech when uke shifts a foot out of place.  I don't agree that lifting is TOTAL rubbish but I will agree that it depends on your goals in the gym that may adversely affect your ability to perform aikido to a certain extent.  As with all things it's about balance.


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## Jenna

Thank you all for giving your careful consideration to this  and while I am maybe not convinced of the usefulness of weight and resistance training IN AIKIDO I will say I am aware there is a usefulness to resistance training absolutely and agree with you who said so.. but I think this is correct only when we have specific goals to mind.. and by way of qualification I will say that resistance increases bone mass especially in women and this is a VERY good thing as hormones dissipate and leave their marks.. likewise if you are a sprinter or a cyclist or a climber or swimmer or a builder or even a pianist you will need to have your appropriate muscles trained to the most efficient level.. what good would Lance Armstrong (mmmm) have been with swimmers lats and pecs and a marathon runners legs? It is about fit for purpose and which I think we are mostly forgetful of seeking to just bulk out everything that can be bulked out... 

and but I think the equation becomes imbalanced particularly for the Aikidoka when good tone .. and which is something I try to be careful to maintain in myself .. but when good tone is overtaken by muscle GREED.. are you greedy for muscle??? I think there is muscle which is natural and occurs naturally in each of us and yes I agree we should work diligently with this to MAINTAIN that mass but once we start training weights we are encouraged to INCREASE and increase again over and over and which I think is unnecessary and yes as was said it is to conform to a bodily fashion.. and you may say... well I do not do weights to conform but yes and check your hairstyle and your clothes and your tattoos and all these things are signs of conformity to fashions, no? but oooooh a big digression going on there.. *reels self in*

For an Aikidoka to be capably "toned" .. and I do not even like this word but I hope you understand what I mean by it.. but yes they shoud be toned with the natural muscle they have existing through performing techniques and that is EXACTLY appropriate.. 

taking that concept off its fulcrum and off to one extreme and I think we get an excess of weight (fat) and this is a hindrance and yes I also have trained with some very senior and amazing masters who are even a little um... rotund I will say .. and perhaps I am guilty of pointing out to them via whichever technique they choose that their rotundness around their midriff is maybe not so much an indication of wisdom! as they say to me but an actual detraction from their hard learned experience ... but this is not to be disrespectful and quite the opposite because I care very greatly and deeply for all my former teachers

and likewise at the other extreme off-balance I believe are those not necessarily fit.. or even fit for purpose but bulked out guys (and gals too which I am not overly a fan of) and this in my experience shows up a in VERY obvious lack of physical awareness to the subtleties vagaries and minutae of the opponents movement of which the Aikidoka MUST be aware unless they wish to start blocking parrying and countering which should not even be part of an Aikido repertoire but it becomes so once the awareness to movement flies away with the birds and suddenly we do not know from where the opponents next move is coming and all we can do is react to the actuality rather than pre-empt on the subtlety or on the hint of the their intended movement which is the Aikido way

And you will say well... -I- train weights and I am an Aikidoka and I am still very fit for my art and a great allround Aikidoka... And all I would say is ahh yes... but imagine how much BETTER you would be without the unnecessary slow-twitch muscle. Try it... I guarantee and promise that losing unnecessary bulk and returning to your original (maybe not fashionable in 2006) figure will bolster your Aikido... ahh but I know I am only knocking on closed doors maybe and this is ok I will be standing outside here waiting for you to open up and let me in whenever you are ready! 

Thank you all again for taking time to formulate and offer your thoughtful opinion.. this here is my opinion only which is not to say it is any good for anything... and if it suits you to do so.. go right on ahead and shoot away at me I am tested bulletproof at closest range and certified untouchable, ha! 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## tempus

Or you could say how much better you would be with muscles  

Also, remember with weight training you can train for Bulk, Endurance or Strength.  

You can use weights and do a circuit to gain endurance.
You can use medium reps and isolate body parts for bulk - bodybuilder
You can use low reps and high weight for strength.
Currently I am testing for my brown belt.  In NGA I will need to defend agaisnt about 125 attacks (counting some redo's) one right after the other.  I usually train for strength, but have lowered the weight and raised reps in squats and deadlifts.  My goal is to do exercises that will work my entire body.  In essence a motion that hits the entire body to tie it all together so I can last those 125 attacks.  I know in a perfect world if I blended properly I should not get out of breath, but I know I will make mistakes and will need that endurance.  I will also be doing sled drags and farm walks.

I also work on balance and coordination by stanidng on one leg on a bosu ball and throw a weighted ball against a trampoline with one hand.

What I am getting at is weight training does not necessarily mean muscle magazine steroid bulk.  I only weigh in at 202 lbs and I think I flow pretty good.  Just have to make sure to balance the weight training flexibility and cardio.

On another note multi-functional training would be a good way to train for Aikido.  With all the rolls, falls and movements we hit a lot of the plains of motion in our techniques.  If anyone is interested look into a Bosu or exercise ball routines.  Plus, how often are you asked to deadlift a car compared to bend down and pick up your keys while balancing a bag of groceries in your hand.

-Tempus


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## theletch1

Tempus, good luck on your I-kyu test.  I've had the honor of being an uke in several brown belt test lines and can assure you that the work will pay off (especially any cardio and breathing exercises you're doing). 
 I started lifting to help rehab a broken back and Erica joined in to keep me motivated.  I've got the back very nearly back where it was before the injury and the rest of me looks and feels a lot better than it ever did.  My aikido has improved a great deal as, I think, a direct result of the gym time because A) I am more fit in both stamina and general strength B) I've gone from downright bony to having enough lean muscle that I don't feel that I'm gonna shatter on impact.
  What I've seen from most of the posts here is that weight training has definite benefits for the individual.  I think what Jenna is getting at is the mindset of some folks that hit the gym with the idea that if they "bulk" up they'll be able to do aikido better because they'll be stronger.  That is completely against the idea of aikido.  The amount of muscle or strength shouldn't matter.  It's the efficacy of the technique that should matter.


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## Jenna

theletch1 said:
			
		

> What I've seen from most of the posts here is that weight training has definite benefits for the individual. I think what Jenna is getting at is the mindset of some folks that hit the gym with the idea that if they "bulk" up they'll be able to do aikido better because they'll be stronger. That is completely against the idea of aikido. The amount of muscle or strength shouldn't matter. It's the efficacy of the technique that should matter.


Hey Jeff  Yes you said it best of all I am too prosaic to make sense most times!! And I would still say and I hope you would back me up a little but it is not only that muscle should not matter but more often that not being overly bulked ruins the touch sensitivity to the opponent..  Thank you as ever for your contribution  

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## Xue Sheng

Jenna said:
			
		

> Hey Jeff  Yes you said it best of all I am too prosaic to make sense most times!! And I would still say and I hope you would back me up a little but it is not only that muscle should not matter but more often that not being overly bulked ruins the touch sensitivity to the opponent.. Thank you as ever for your contribution
> 
> Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
> Jenna


 
One of the better Tai Chi people I knew was actually quite muscular. I have no idea if he worked out with weights or it was genetic, but he was very good at finding someones center and being soft when necessary. He also use to train with an Aikijitsu teacher who could not defeat him in sparing. Basically he was too soft and to flexible to gain any advantage over and he followed way to well to be able to use his strength against him.


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## Blotan Hunka

If you think the average person is going to get a huge bulked up appearance from regular weight training I think you are mistaken. Those bodybuilding folks are either extremely disciplined + specialized in their dieting and exercise or are chemically assisted.


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## Aikikitty

I didn't read this whole thread, but I just wanted to put my 2 cents in.

Interesting question/topic. I was recently thinking about this same thing a couple of months ago. One side--work out and get more fit. Other side--not supposed to use upper body strength/muscle your way through techniques, and getting stronger might make doing that more difficult.

I've always been small and yet for some dumb reason, would keep trying to muscle my way through techniques (trying to turn/lift with biceps and shoulders not with hips). I've never been overweight, but I was never in good physical shape or very strong either and I'd be the first person to wear out in class---and I'm the youngest at 24! My mom is 55 and she has more stamina than I do!!! 

Anyway, since our classes had to be cut back from 3 times a week to only once a week some months back, my mom and I wanted to do some other exercise. We joined Curves (the women only gym) in May and go 3 times a week. Since then there has been a HUGE difference! My mom is losing weight and getting more fit. I'm toning and getting my little muscles much stronger. Not big or bulky, but stronger. That's a huge difference for me in class as I'm not wearing out or near as tired at the end of class like I was before. I still sometimes try to stupidly muscle through a technique, but I used to do that before anyway. So for me, the gym-machine workouts have been very benefical to my Aikido. 

Robyn :asian:


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## pstarr

And let's not forget that O'sensei used to practice with a "log" instead of a bokken when he lived in Hokkaido.  He was also known to practice regularly with a suburito.

A friend of mine (who's even older than I am!) met O'sensei back in the day and said that he really didn't have wrists...his forearms were the same thickness all the way down... and his grip was strong enough to crush bone without using aiki technique (no doubt the result of training with heavy wooden swords and such).


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## Xue Sheng

pstarr said:
			
		

> And let's not forget that O'sensei used to practice with a "log" instead of a bokken when he lived in Hokkaido. He was also known to practice regularly with a suburito.
> 
> A friend of mine (who's even older than I am!) met O'sensei back in the day and said that he really didn't have wrists...his forearms were the same thickness all the way down... and his grip was strong enough to crush bone without using aiki technique (no doubt the result of training with heavy wooden swords and such).


 
I did not know this, thanks

And it is a very good point.


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## Jenna

The Opal Dragon said:
			
		

> I didn't read this whole thread, but I just wanted to put my 2 cents in.
> 
> Interesting question/topic. I was recently thinking about this same thing a couple of months ago. One side--work out and get more fit. Other side--not supposed to use upper body strength/muscle your way through techniques, and getting stronger might make doing that more difficult.
> 
> I've always been small and yet for some dumb reason, would keep trying to muscle my way through techniques (trying to turn/lift with biceps and shoulders not with hips). I've never been overweight, but I was never in good physical shape or very strong either and I'd be the first person to wear out in class---and I'm the youngest at 24! My mom is 55 and she has more stamina than I do!!!
> 
> Anyway, since our classes had to be cut back from 3 times a week to only once a week some months back, my mom and I wanted to do some other exercise. We joined Curves (the women only gym) in May and go 3 times a week. Since then there has been a HUGE difference! My mom is losing weight and getting more fit. I'm toning and getting my little muscles much stronger. Not big or bulky, but stronger. That's a huge difference for me in class as I'm not wearing out or near as tired at the end of class like I was before. I still sometimes try to stupidly muscle through a technique, but I used to do that before anyway. So for me, the gym-machine workouts have been very benefical to my Aikido.
> 
> Robyn :asian:


Hey Robyn  thank you for this post it is nice to get an opinion from another Aikidoka and you are correct bout not muscling your way through techniques as this is not the Aikido way at all and in fact NECESSITATES muscle because no matter how big and clever and muscular a fighter might be.. there is always someone bigger and cleverer and more muscular than they are.. and yes in our Aikido we use a little more by way of subtlety which suits the likes of you and I who are not Vin Diesel but are a little on the petite side I will say but through the correct application of our technique as you will know.. there is little uke can do to resist..

And my point Robyn is that as we progress through our Aikido study we gain that sensitivity to movement by direct contact with either the opponents limbs body or weapon where it is prudent to be in contact and with unnecessary extra muscle there is an evident suppression of this sensitivity arising imo via a simple physiology which I will not detail but which lessens the perception to the opponents motion... again this is my opinion only but I tested and proven to myself and which is all the convincing I require and I am not bothered whether it is in a scientific journal! 

And you and I are both 24 which is trivial but a nice little coincidence for me.. ahh but I am easily amused as you can tell, ha! 

Good luck with your training and thank you again for your observations my friend!

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## Adept

Jenna said:
			
		

> And you will say well... -I- train weights and I am an Aikidoka and I am still very fit for my art and a great allround Aikidoka... And all I would say is ahh yes... but imagine how much BETTER you would be without the unnecessary slow-twitch muscle. Try it... I guarantee and promise that losing unnecessary bulk and returning to your original (maybe not fashionable in 2006) figure will bolster your Aikido.



I respectfully disagree. Disregarding the end-of-the-scale extremes like Mr Universe contestants, a more muscled person benefits over an otherwsie equal, but less muscled opponent in terms of weight, strength and speed.

Now, I can hear the cries of 'technique over strength!' already. And it's true, good technique will serve you better than brute strength. But what about when two opponents are equally, or similarly matched in skill? Then the stronger one wins. Relying on skill alone is as bad, IMO, as relying on strength alone. Now, I'm not going to say that you should all abandon your training and get to the gym, but I will say that (1) weights training is as effective at burning kilojoules as most cardio workouts, and has the added benefit of increasing muscle mass and (2) there is no loss in speed or flexibility. Obviously a body builder will never the marathon runner make, but we aren't talking about running marathons here.

To summarise, you won't get slower or less flexible from bulking up, and it shouldn't hurt your Aikido in any way, shape or form. You will, however, benefit from greater strength and speed, as well as weight and natural 'armour' and short burst endurance, without significantly harming your long term endurance.


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## Jenna

Adept said:
			
		

> I respectfully disagree. Disregarding the end-of-the-scale extremes like Mr Universe contestants, a more muscled person benefits over an otherwsie equal, but less muscled opponent in terms of weight, strength and speed.
> 
> Now, I can hear the cries of 'technique over strength!' already. And it's true, good technique will serve you better than brute strength. But what about when two opponents are equally, or similarly matched in skill? Then the stronger one wins. Relying on skill alone is as bad, IMO, as relying on strength alone. Now, I'm not going to say that you should all abandon your training and get to the gym, but I will say that (1) weights training is as effective at burning kilojoules as most cardio workouts, and has the added benefit of increasing muscle mass and (2) there is no loss in speed or flexibility. Obviously a body builder will never the marathon runner make, but we aren't talking about running marathons here.
> 
> To summarise, you won't get slower or less flexible from bulking up, and it shouldn't hurt your Aikido in any way, shape or form. You will, however, benefit from greater strength and speed, as well as weight and natural 'armour' and short burst endurance, without significantly harming your long term endurance.


Hey there mister Adept  and this is ok absolutely for you to respectfully disagree and for me to do likewise I trust!  I will say having had along with my Aikido a reasonable exposure to other primarily strike-based arts that for sure if you want to hit hard or if you want to throw hard and tackle hard then extra muscle is certainly relevant and necessary.. 

however I am very SPECIFICALLY referring to Aikido and which is why I put the thread in the Aikido place here and I maintain and that extra muscle above and beyond that which we develop NATURALLY through our training exactly with our techniques is not only extraneous but detrimental due to the nature of the depletion of contact sensitivity that any half-decent Aikidoka must have to avoid getting caught out. 

I do not block a hard punch with a hard inner or outer forearm nor do I deflect a side kick with a Bong Sau because this is not a part of my art but what I do instead if I am in direct contact with my opponent is to sense where he is moving and move WITH HIM in order that I might unbalance him allowing me entry for whichever tech and if I cannot sense subtly where he is moving BEFORE he has moved then I am having to play catch up with him and my advantage is lost.. 

and I maintain and having experienced this many times previously with overdeveloped (imNsvho) practitioners that any extraneous muscle mass is a plain physiological disadvantage to their touch and movement sensitivity. And I am happy to play nage and demonstrate this to anyone who wishes... and I am certainly not bulked in any way and have made great efforts to maintain my natural muscle mass as being exactly appropriate for me and what I need to do... and do not get me wrong.. if you need the extra for your art then that has a different application and what I am talking of is not relevant and is an entirely separate issue but I am particularly referring to Aikido.. and if I am the only Aikidoka to practice this notion then I guess that puts me in a majority of one and which I am happy to be with the knowledge of the results I have for myself... I am not making a point to prove anything but simply attempting to present my circumstantial findings for any Aikidoka who may be interested in furthering their knowledge and maybe stepping away from the norm and which I know is not easy for most practitioners but..

As an MMA BB I am not certain what that means is your exposure to Aikido .. apologies I am unfamiliar with terminologies.. and which I hope you will forgive me for.. but I am certain if you have practiced Aikido for any length of time at all then you will surely appreciate what I am referring to.. and I hope that makes a little sense to you... Thank you for posting up your opinion absolutely! 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


----------



## Jenna

Blotan Hunka said:
			
		

> If you think the average person is going to get a huge bulked up appearance from regular weight training I think you are mistaken. Those bodybuilding folks are either extremely disciplined + specialized in their dieting and exercise or are chemically assisted.


I have said before but I just love that Collateral scene you got going on there in yor signature... it is mesmerising over and over and over... 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


----------



## MrFunnieman

Jenna,

I know that the reason a person studies a martial art is as unique as that individual.  I have not thoroughly studied Aikido, but I have studied other Japanese arts and I am familiar with the philosophy behind Aikido.  In fact, when I take up another art it will be Aikido.  I completely understand the need for sensitivity, but I don't think muscle mass is inversely connected to sensitivity.  Sensitivity, IMHO, is directly connected to a person's mental awareness.  Secondly, should a person's intention of studying Aikido be self-defense, I think concentrating ONLY on technique would be detrimental.  I don't know if you have been in a fight before, but it's not as pretty as randori or demos in the dojo.  EVERY advantage counts, including strength and stamina.  Real life conflict is messy and I think MANY martial arts sell themselves as self-defense and they are NOT training their students properly.  Theoretically all martial arts should work in self-defense.  Theory and practice are two different things.  I want to reiterate that I am speaking purely from the view of SELF-DEFENSE.  If you are studying Aikido for inner harmony or for other reasons, by all means- don't weightlift- you won't need it in the dojo-when the attack and defense are perfectly coreographed.  Your uke will more often than not move effortlessly for you.  Thug with a weapon will not be nice or move predictably.  Sorry to be so raw.

Eric


----------



## Makalakumu

If you are in a situation where your art can't help you, then strength and athleticism will really help.  Weight training and conditioning are things that are so beneficial in so many things.  It doesn't always have to be about MA.


----------



## citrus_tea

Not rubbish, just irrelavent. Strength should not be a factor in aikido technique.


----------



## Adept

citrus_tea said:
			
		

> Not rubbish, just irrelavent. Strength should not be a factor in aikido technique.



When those other factors are equal, then strength will be the deciding factor.


----------



## Adept

Jenna said:
			
		

> extra muscle above and beyond that which we develop NATURALLY through our training exactly with our techniques is not only extraneous but detrimental due to the nature of the depletion of contact sensitivity that any half-decent Aikidoka must have to avoid getting caught out.



Extra muscle mass will not impact contact sensitivity.



> I do not block a hard punch with a hard inner or outer forearm nor do I deflect a side kick with a Bong Sau because this is not a part of my art but what I do instead if I am in direct contact with my opponent is to sense where he is moving and move WITH HIM in order that I might unbalance him allowing me entry for whichever tech and if I cannot sense subtly where he is moving BEFORE he has moved then I am having to play catch up with him and my advantage is lost..



That extra muscle mass will not make it any harder to detect his movements. It will make it easier to follow him, and a stronger person is more difficult to unbalance than a weaker one.



> and I maintain and having experienced this many times previously with overdeveloped (imNsvho) practitioners that any extraneous muscle mass is a plain physiological disadvantage to their touch and movement sensitivity.



It's quite simply not the case. Extra muscle mass does not in any way impact any part of the body which is involved in touch and movement sensitivity.



> if you need the extra for your art then that has a different application and what I am talking of is not relevant and is an entirely separate issue but I am particularly referring to Aikido.



Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying anyone needs to be a meathead. All I'm saying is that there is no reason for extra muscle mass to be detrimental. There is no physiological reason why it should make it harder to sense movement or pressure. It doesn't affect your nervous system in any way, so your sense of touch would be unimpaired, which in turn means your ability to 'feel' the movement of an opponent would be unchanged. But your reaction time would be increased.



> As an MMA BB I am not certain what that means is your exposure to Aikido



Limited, I'm afraid. I don't normally cruise the Aikido forums, I just saw the thread title from the index page and thought I'd take a look. 



> apologies I am unfamiliar with terminologies



It means I have a black belt in ITF TKD and have significant influences from time spent training in, and with people from, jujitsu, karate and boxing.


----------



## Jenna

MrFunnieman said:
			
		

> Jenna,
> 
> I know that the reason a person studies a martial art is as unique as that individual. I have not thoroughly studied Aikido, but I have studied other Japanese arts and I am familiar with the philosophy behind Aikido. In fact, when I take up another art it will be Aikido. I completely understand the need for sensitivity, but I don't think muscle mass is inversely connected to sensitivity. Sensitivity, IMHO, is directly connected to a person's mental awareness. Secondly, should a person's intention of studying Aikido be self-defense, I think concentrating ONLY on technique would be detrimental. I don't know if you have been in a fight before, but it's not as pretty as randori or demos in the dojo. EVERY advantage counts, including strength and stamina. Real life conflict is messy and I think MANY martial arts sell themselves as self-defense and they are NOT training their students properly. Theoretically all martial arts should work in self-defense. Theory and practice are two different things. I want to reiterate that I am speaking purely from the view of SELF-DEFENSE. If you are studying Aikido for inner harmony or for other reasons, by all means- don't weightlift- you won't need it in the dojo-when the attack and defense are perfectly coreographed. Your uke will more often than not move effortlessly for you. Thug with a weapon will not be nice or move predictably. Sorry to be so raw.
> 
> Eric


Hey Eric  I will take you up on a few things if this will not upset you overly my friend.. and you say that sensitivity iYho is directly connected to "mental awareness" but I do not know how you classify this mental awareness... in MY Aikido which you rightly say is as unique as yours is to you.. but in MY Aikido my mental awareness of my opponent is only discerned through purely PHYSICAL receptors... I am not gifted in ESP nor can I read palms.. what I CAN do is use my eyes and more specifically use my direct contact with my opponent as a gauge for which way he is inclined to move.. I have no "mental" awareness in this situation other than what is passed to me through these physical channels... however I am always open to more esoteric methods of sensitivity towards an opponent and will talk to you all day on implanting subliminal "fall-down" commands if you wish and which is also something I may be interested in.. but I maintain that the more poundage of protein I have the less I am aware of what I am feeling by way of small movements.. the almost imperceptable movements he will make as he goes to take me one way or the other and if I cannot feel these until AFTER he has actually impelled himself and moved then the game (the tech I was planning) is over for me.. simple physiology dictates that the greater muscle mass the less the sensitivity which is important to ME in MY Aikido though may not be to others in theirs or their various arts.. but to put it simply.. muscles have inbuilt receptors responsible for discerning changes in their own length.. these receptors tell the brain ooh:stimulus and the brain shouts down oi! contract! but my point is that any delay in perception decoding or transmission anywhere on these neural pathways (of which excessive bulk over "normal" is but one) will give rise to a reduction in optimal response or what we say is NORMAL muscle tone... again I only offer this as an opinion and if it suits you to run off with a fervent need to disprove it well this is ok I am not offended 

and my friend I do not know how to answer your probings around my own "fights" and so I will just say two things.. books have many pages between their covers.. and also that some days it is not our choice whether we are nage or uke.. 

but to be honest.. further proof of effectiveness of my aimless meanderings is something I am not overly concerned for.. I merely present this as a suggestion for anyone to try out.. stop training to increase poundage! .. and to which ears may be closed and eyes shut but my friend this is the way of things and we are not always willing to step outside our boxes of conformity and fair enough.. I have no desire to lift myself on any soapbox nor SHOUT at anyone through a loud hailer and if these ideas are not relevant to you in your situation then of course I understand this and I am certain you are more than capable and happy in your own framework of training and as such you must disregard what I am saying.. and least we both agree yes.. each of us works their art in their own way as many and different as snowflakes under a 100x lens... 

Good luck to you indeed and thank you for your insights.

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


----------



## Jenna

Adept said:
			
		

> There is no physiological reason why it should make it harder to sense movement or pressure. It doesn't affect your nervous system in any way, so your sense of touch would be unimpaired, which in turn means your ability to 'feel' the movement of an opponent would be unchanged. But your reaction time would be increased.


Hey Adept my friend  I would have to say exactly the opposite to this and hope you will forgive me that we cannot agree... as I say I am not looking to PERSUADE anyone of anything but am simply offering up a suggestion. And as I said in the last post.. if this is not relevant to your particular training intentions within your martial art then your instincts will tell you correctly to disregard it 

good luck
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


----------



## Blotan Hunka

So are naturally muscular people less capable Akidoka than skinny ones. What about fat people?


----------



## Jenna

Blotan Hunka said:
			
		

> So are naturally muscular people less capable Akidoka than skinny ones. What about fat people?


I am not certain if you are addressing me directly .. but I will be presumptuous and respond anyway... and yes you are right to state this obvious point.. larger people have plainly greater muscle mass than smaller people and the point is that their point of NATURAL equilibrium is naturally at a higher level of muscular mass than the smaller person.. and similarly there are those folk who have a NATURAL propensity for a higher baseline body fat percentages than others and I will say in the situation where someone is in their natural bodily equilibrium then they will be set exactly for training their optimum touch sensitivity IN AIKIDO.

however once this person begins to deviate either way.. increasing muscular mass or laying down greater fat then naturally this takes them away from their equilibrium which diminishes the ability to subtly sense and respond..

and naturally.. claiming no expertise in anything soever.. I am not advocating any system of training for you or for anyone else so please do not put yourself in the position to be offended.. I am simply offering a suggestion which has arisen through MY OWN AIKIDO practice and which other AIKIDOKA may be open to trying for themselves.. I have no axe to grind with anyone who trains weights I am merely giving an idea but if  my idea is offensive to you or anyone else then absolutely you MUST disregard it  

and yes.. thank you again for that Collateral scene.. though I still think the best scene by far was Felix talking Pedro Negro...ooooh 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


----------



## MrFunnieman

Jenna said:
			
		

> Hey Eric  I will take you up on a few things if this will not upset you overly my friend



Jenna, I don't take much personally...especially on forums.  I am always ready for a good debate and am glad that your thread has brought some life to the Aikido forum.  After reading your post I realized that I capitalized  several words with the intention of emphasizing my points in my argument.  I dawned on me that in the electronic world this is interpretted  as shouting.  I am sorry-- that was not my intention.



			
				Jenna said:
			
		

> .. but in MY Aikido my mental awareness of my opponent is only discerned through purely PHYSICAL receptors... I am not gifted in ESP nor can I read palms.. what I CAN do is use my eyes and more specifically use my direct contact with my opponent as a gauge for which way he is inclined to move.. I have no "mental" awareness in this situation other than what is passed to me through these physical channels...



Mental awareness may have not been a good descriptor.  As we train, one hopes that muscle memory and nervous system routes become so efficient that things take place automatically.  A conscious awareness is not really necessary.  In the early stages of training, in my experience, if you are not looking for those physical cues, then you are not consciously or  "mentally aware" of the cues.  I also think that people that are more focused on the technique and less focused on the uke's position and balance are not aware of these cues.  

Believe me, my coordination and perception of my physical surroundings have improved greatly with my martial art training. I have gone from an awkward teen to a competant martial artist (over many years).  I would suggest that familiarity with techniques and hours logged in the dojo have more impact on sensitivity than muscle mass.  I am not a doctor or biologist, so please accept my statement for what it's worth.

Additionally, I don't think we are really arguing.  I accept your opinion, but it defies my experience or understanding.  I too am not trying to sell unnaturally bulky muscles.



			
				Jenna said:
			
		

> but I maintain that the more poundage of protein I have the less I am aware of what I am feeling by way of small movements.. the almost imperceptable movements he will make as he goes to take me one way or the other and if I cannot feel these until AFTER he has actually impelled himself and moved then the game (the tech I was planning) is over for me..



This statement almost contradicts your earlier statements you made about mental awareness and having to experience the tactile stimulation to be able to respond appropriately.  I would have to ask you to validate your statement of "the more poundage of protein I have the less I am aware of what I am feeling" with some medical research. Does muscle mass really impede the chemical reactions in the nervous system?  Lest you are a doctor or student of human physiology, I believe you are making statements that are as informed as my own.  Mine are based on a perceptual psychology class I took about seven years ago in college and my rudimentary understanding of human physiology.



			
				Jenna said:
			
		

> again I only offer this as an opinion and if it suits you to run off with a fervent need to disprove it well this is ok I am not offended
> and my friend I do not know how to answer your probings around my own "fights" and so I will just say two things.. books have many pages between their covers.. and also that some days it is not our choice whether we are nage or uke..



I will not be running off to fervently disprove your claims.  I think there is more to this book than meets the eye.  I would rather have an opportunity to see more of it's pages before I pursue this subject any further. :wink1:



			
				Jenna said:
			
		

> I have no desire to lift myself on any soapbox nor SHOUT at anyone through a loud hailer and if these ideas are not relevant to you in your situation then of course I understand this and I am certain you are more than capable and happy in your own framework of training and as such you must disregard what I am saying.. and least we both agree yes.. each of us works their art in their own way as many and different as snowflakes under a 100x lens...



Agreed 

Eric


----------



## Jenna

MrFunnieman said:
			
		

> Lest you are a doctor or student of human physiology, I believe you are making statements that are as informed as my own.


Then my friend we are either equally as enlightened as the other or equally as clumsily groping for the light switch.. 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


----------



## Robert Lee

I would agree and disagree. When you work weights into you training you need to increase your training so the newer muscle mass and body tone can adapt to what you are doing. Or the training does retard you motion to a degree. bE it any art. Weights can be a benfit But you have to keep your self trained. Mind and body work together. Now heavy arms feel less until better trained. To understand motion on senctivety You want to feel the slightest movement. The softer touch. Buyt at times you need to appliy great pressure Because in uncontroled movement You are working resistive motion. Press pauce and yeild at times stops and allows the yeilded motion. So that it can work. Just useing weight training to tone and condition Is better then now training at all.  But weights is not a must pushups pullups and other methods can help Aikido really depends on skill  level to get it working. Lower the skill the much less it will help. Strengh can stop alot of joint manipluations. It can stop alot of off balance. When the other person knows how to utilize there strengh. The elimate of surprise in the motion gives Aikido the better chance. No way will the average Aikido person get there art working before they take a hit in real life. Most instructors will tell you this But they will tell you also when you get it working it can upset the other persons motions.  So the better body condition you do have the better your chances are. What i mean is weights can hamper and they work as long as you adjust your training to off set the balance.


----------



## Adept

MrFunnieman said:
			
		

> I would have to ask you to validate your statement of "the more poundage of protein I have the less I am aware of what I am feeling" with some medical research. Does muscle mass really impede the chemical reactions in the nervous system?



This is also a point I would like to clarify.

Your main reason for not increasing muscle mass seems to be that there will be a loss in sensitivity. Being a muscular guy myself, I have experienced no loss in sensitivity over the years. As you assert yourself, you are _not_ a heavily muscled person, it would be impossible for you to compare.

The bottom line is, there is absolutely no medical reason for muscle mass to adversely affect the sense of touch. Those muscular people you saw, who appeared to have an impaired sense of touch, must have appeared that way for other reasons.


----------



## Hand Sword

I would agree. Look at wrestlers for instance (yeah, the Pro wrestlers too). They are huge people! Athletic, with speed, power and great agility. Their whole game could be looked at as coming down to sensitivity. If not there would be serious injury to the opponent, or themselves. No problems with their size and sensitivity.


----------



## Carol

Adept said:
			
		

> This is also a point I would like to clarify.
> 
> Your main reason for not increasing muscle mass seems to be that there will be a loss in sensitivity. Being a muscular guy myself, I have experienced no loss in sensitivity over the years. As you assert yourself, you are _not_ a heavily muscled person, it would be impossible for you to compare.
> 
> The bottom line is, there is absolutely no medical reason for muscle mass to adversely affect the sense of touch. Those muscular people you saw, who appeared to have an impaired sense of touch, must have appeared that way for other reasons.


 
Perhaps impairment isn't the proper sense of the word.

It seems to me that the sense of touch that Jenna is referring to is not the sensation on one's skin, but instead the feeling of one's muscles (and other tissues) by first the uke's body impacting the tissue and then the uke moving.  What is the uke's body impacting against?  The Aikidoka's muscles?  Yep.  And under that?  The bone.  So....what Jenna is reffering to is more of a sense of her muscle tissue being forced against it's own bone from the weight of the uke. 

It follows logical that _any _change in tissue would result in a change in the way that sensation was relayed.

The reason why shin kicks are so painful - there is very little muscle between the shin and the outer skin.

Muscle itself is spongey, the support for the body comes from the bone.  When one body strikes another, the impact is created by bones hitting other bones...the muscles in between act as a form of padding.

It then follows logically that the more muscle that one has, the thicker, and stiffer the padding is against the bone...and would thus result in very different sensations.  

It makes sense to me that less impact would be felt by a person with a lot more muscle tissue...and for an art such as Aikido, this could make for a difference in how a technique is executed, esp. for someone at the dan ranks in the art that has the training and expertise to clue in to a lot of subtleties.


But since we Kenpokas are about as subtle as a handsword to the ribs, its back to the weight room for me :rofl:


----------



## Jenna

Adept said:
			
		

> This is also a point I would like to clarify.
> 
> Your main reason for not increasing muscle mass seems to be that there will be a loss in sensitivity. Being a muscular guy myself, I have experienced no loss in sensitivity over the years. As you assert yourself, you are _not_ a heavily muscled person, it would be impossible for you to compare.
> 
> The bottom line is, there is absolutely no medical reason for muscle mass to adversely affect the sense of touch. Those muscular people you saw, who appeared to have an impaired sense of touch, must have appeared that way for other reasons.


Hey mister Adept  I think it was maybe evident from the tone in your posts that you are a "muscular guy"  and I promise my friend.. I am neither desirous nor concerned to try to direct your training in any way contrary.. I am NOT decrying weight training for hard-hitting arts for which muscle mass is relevant and NECESSARY. I have been at pains to point this out that I am just giving an idea from my own personal experience though I am naive to miss that the mention of WEIGHT TRAINING would be the red rag even here in the Aikido area and I spose I am not so confused at your defensiveness as though I were making some tirade on your own training methodology.. I am NOT though.. trust me!... but what the majority do in their gyms is for them.. because I do not agree I am happy to be a "pec deck heretic", ha! I will get a t shirt made up that way.. pffft.. as I have said if this idea is repugnant to you then surely we have no argument.. you have lodged your 2c in the account and you can withdraw it at any time my friend.. 

but I will make one point which you can take or leave depending upon your openness.. You say to me "As you assert yourself, you are not a heavily muscled person, it would be impossible for you to compare."

and I will return this and say that if this were the case then YOU are ALSO unable to compare how much better your sensitivity (if you understand this notion) may potentially be RIGHT NOW without your excess muscle 

I sense you are a little if not wholly closed to the idea which is fine and certainly your prerogative as I say I am keen NOT to cajole anyone into doing something that would diminish their training or self-worth.. However I will say that over the course of a year I went hell-for-leather as we say here .. I more than doubled my max bench press weight and got myself to over 400lbs leg press which I was pleased with for my diminutive frame and was taking supplemental protein shakes and in the end made for me what I am told was significant gain which the gym trainers told me WOULD happen as a beginner to weight training but I will say that with all this excess muscular baggage I absolutely noticed a drop-off in my perception sensitivity when in direct contact with my uke.. and which is why I went to great lengths  with a personal trainer to get myself BACK to my normal musculature and regaining what I class as the subtleties of touch sensitivity.. and so.. what does all this mean? To YOU my friend nothing but trivial anecdote backed up only by further anecdotal experiential or circumstantial evidence.. to me it has relevance to MY AIKIDO and perhaps it might have some relevance to others practicing the art. It is nothing more.. nothing less. I am NOT an evangelist nor am I a missionary for any cause... but respectfully... all stand for the next hymn.. 

Good luck 
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


----------



## Jenna

Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> Perhaps impairment isn't the proper sense of the word.
> 
> It seems to me that the sense of touch that Jenna is referring to is not the sensation on one's skin, but instead the feeling of one's muscles (and other tissues) by first the uke's body impacting the tissue and then the uke moving. What is the uke's body impacting against? The Aikidoka's muscles? Yep. And under that? The bone. So....what Jenna is reffering to is more of a sense of her muscle tissue being forced against it's own bone from the weight of the uke.
> 
> It follows logical that _any _change in tissue would result in a change in the way that sensation was relayed.
> 
> The reason why shin kicks are so painful - there is very little muscle between the shin and the outer skin.
> 
> Muscle itself is spongey, the support for the body comes from the bone. When one body strikes another, the impact is created by bones hitting other bones...the muscles in between act as a form of padding.
> 
> It then follows logically that the more muscle that one has, the thicker, and stiffer the padding is against the bone...and would thus result in very different sensations.
> 
> It makes sense to me that less impact would be felt by a person with a lot more muscle tissue...and for an art such as Aikido, this could make for a difference in how a technique is executed, esp. for someone at the dan ranks in the art that has the training and expertise to clue in to a lot of subtleties.
> 
> 
> But since we Kenpokas are about as subtle as a handsword to the ribs, its back to the weight room for me :rofl:


ahh Carol my discerning and thoughtful friend  for an excogitative post with your own ideas that you have evidently considered based on what I suggest.. and I ask NOTHING else.. well for giving this consideration here.. have a tasty reputation snack, ha!

Call me fickle Carol I will admit to it but doing a little reading and well.. Ayn Rand if you can imagine you put me onto indirectly.. and exactly what she said feels about right to me.. "I am not looking for intelligent disagreement any longer..... What I am looking for is intelligent AGREEMENT.."  Fickle yes probably that is the word.. but who cares...

Ahh but Carol as I sit here with my birch beside this poor dead horse ha! I am counting on the fingers of one hand the posts from folk at least open to consider the idea.. yours being one... And so for this alone you get one wish (expires today)...

Thank you my friend 
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


----------



## Jenna

Oh dear dear  LOL.. why if my little ol idea aint been taken right out of its little ol context! But as the lady said.. "I don't want realism, I want magic!" Ah what is a gal to do these days to just present an idea contrary to the belief of the proletariat? Oh! les moutons! où est votre gardien de troupeau? Je ne suis pas votre berger...  ha! Pffft! oh well.. here they come to put me back to my box.. Continue.

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


----------



## Carol

Jenna said:
			
		

> ahh Carol my discerning and thoughtful friend  for an excogitative post with your own ideas that you have evidently considered based on what I suggest.. and I ask NOTHING else.. well for giving this consideration here.. have a tasty reputation snack, ha!
> 
> Call me fickle Carol I will admit to it but doing a little reading and well.. Ayn Rand if you can imagine you put me onto indirectly.. and exactly what she said feels about right to me.. "I am not looking for intelligent disagreement any longer..... What I am looking for is intelligent AGREEMENT.." Fickle yes probably that is the word.. but who cares...
> 
> Ahh but Carol as I sit here with my birch beside this poor dead horse ha! I am counting on the fingers of one hand the posts from folk at least open to consider the idea.. yours being one... And so for this alone you get one wish (expires today)...
> 
> Thank you my friend
> Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
> Jenna


 

Jenna my friend, 

There is nothing like you Brits and your use of the Queen's English to make a Yank feel rather dum....er....stupi...er....NOT British.  Yes, that's it.  I feel very not British.

(uhh, I had to look this up)

Ex-cog-i-a-tive
_adjective_
Of, characterized by, or disposed to thought

wow, thanks!  :asian:

Of course it is only fair that share my snack with you my friend for a most _excogitative_ topic. 

It's a very interesting discussion.   Something that I have found is that the subject of weight training is that it can bring out some surprisingly strong opinions and some of them can even be spouted by yours truly.  You offered quite a bit to think about.   And gosh darn it, I rather enjoy a good challenge!  :bounce1:

Of course, it could also be that my mind is open strictly because my head is empty. :rofl:  But in all seriousness...the reason that you expressed is probably the best of all...that it works for you and your training.  

So one wish, eh?  Well...I've had one wish in my head for a very long time.  :closes eyes:  I wish that same wish that I have been wishing, once more.  :inhales sharply:  So now I wait and hope and...I believe, I tell ya, I believe!!


----------



## Blotan Hunka

Weight training is TOTAL rubbish for Aikidoka? 

Bollocks!


----------



## Adept

Jenna said:
			
		

> I am neither desirous nor concerned to try to direct your training in any way contrary.



I know, and I;m sorry if my posts came across as overly defensive. It wasn't my intent.



> I am NOT decrying weight training for hard-hitting arts for which muscle mass is relevant and NECESSARY.



I would assert that weight training is relevant and beneficial for all martial arts, and general good health to boot.



> I am happy to be a "pec deck heretic", ha! I will get a t shirt made up that way.. pffft..



:uhyeah:



> and I will return this and say that if this were the case then YOU are ALSO unable to compare how much better your sensitivity (if you understand this notion) may potentially be RIGHT NOW without your excess muscle



But having developed from a skinny guy to a considerably more solid guy, I have experience on both ends of the spectrum.



> I will say that with all this excess muscular baggage I absolutely noticed a drop-off in my perception sensitivity when in direct contact with my uke.



I can only surmise it must have been for other reasons. 

[quote-Carol Kaur]Perhaps impairment isn't the proper sense of the word.

 It seems to me that the sense of touch that Jenna is referring to is not the sensation on one's skin, but instead the feeling of one's muscles (and other tissues) by first the uke's body impacting the tissue and then the uke moving.[/quote]

Given the way the body works, it is impossible for extra muscle to affect the way nerve impulses are perceived, transmitted and processed by the brain.



> What is the uke's body impacting against? The Aikidoka's muscles? Yep. And under that? The bone. So....what Jenna is reffering to is more of a sense of her muscle tissue being forced against it's own bone from the weight of the uke.
> 
> It follows logical that _any _change in tissue would result in a change in the way that sensation was relayed.



Only if that tissue change was a change to the actual neurons relaying information to and from the brain. Those muscles will still feel the same impact, regardless of their size.



> Muscle itself is spongey, the support for the body comes from the bone. When one body strikes another, the impact is created by bones hitting other bones...the muscles in between act as a form of padding.
> 
> It then follows logically that the more muscle that one has, the thicker, and stiffer the padding is against the bone...and would thus result in very different sensations.



Absolutely. But the receptors for pressure are not located inside of muscles, or on the bones, but in the skin. In this instance, you would feel the uke's movement because of the way they move your own body. Thicker muscles will only prevent this if you wish them to, and you certainly dont have to.



> It makes sense to me that less impact would be felt by a person with a lot more muscle tissue



But only if that extra muscle is tensed to absord the impact. If not, the impact will be felt, regardless of the size of the muscle.


----------



## MartialIntent

While I can't claim any great physiological or neurological knowledge, I appreciate exactly what Jenna is saying here. There's something about the movement in a muscular aikidoka that creates a noticeable demarcation between them and non-muscular counterparts. This is just an observation of mine and isn't meant as an offensive remark.

Bottom line is, if you have experienced this when doing any of the sensitivity exercises in your Aikido, you'll understand, and if not, it'll probably never really make sense.

Respects!


----------



## MartialIntent

Blotan Hunka said:
			
		

> Weight training is TOTAL rubbish for Aikidoka?
> 
> Bollocks!


Someone needs a hug.


----------



## Jenna

MartialIntent said:
			
		

> While I can't claim any great physiological or neurological knowledge, I appreciate exactly what Jenna is saying here. There's something about the movement in a muscular aikidoka that creates a noticeable demarcation between them and non-muscular counterparts. This is just an observation of mine and isn't meant as an offensive remark.
> 
> Bottom line is, if you have experienced this when doing any of the sensitivity exercises in your Aikido, you'll understand, and if not, it'll probably never really make sense.
> 
> Respects!


Exactly my ever wise friend and you are clever to discern this.. Let me give another example.. In all the words I have in me I can NEVER describe PAIN to you. I can describe the mechanics of it but NEVER the absolute sensation. The best I can do is prick you and say.. there.. that is pain. In many ways you are correct that the seme holds true for this touch and movement sensitivity. 

And I am just trying to give something here my friend but I am being mistaken for someone who is trying to take away... Ahh...

Thank you again for your always incisive thoughts.

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


----------



## spinkick

Brian R. VanCise said:
			
		

> That is right on!
> 
> Brian R. VanCise


 

I gotta agree with you guys, the only problem with weight training is it hurts flexibility, but that can be easily fixed if you stretch....


----------



## tempus

Reading thru this I now understand where the original statement is going.  Being one who does aikido and is muscular I will agree with the sensativity.  Since when a smaller Uke attacks I barely feel them and toss them with easy and almost bounce them off of the wall on the other side of the room.  When an Uke attacks me that out weighs me I can feel there energy more.

With that being said I will still weight train as much as I can, as I have for many years, to be as muscular and strong as I can be for two reasons:
1) Health
2) No matter how much I train.  If a real world situation occurs where I need to defend my self and either I make a mistake (no one is perfect) or the location causes an issue.  The added muscle strength will allow me to strike with power, redirect the energy forcefully or start the energy up again.


----------



## KOROHO

Weight training is not needed for an Aikidoka, but there is nothing wrong with adding it to your training.
You just need to remain cautious of flexibility and range of motion.  I would not advocate "body building" but building and maintaining good muscle tone and strength and endurance is good for everyone.


----------



## bignick

spinkick said:
			
		

> I gotta agree with you guys, the only problem with weight training is it hurts flexibility, but that can be easily fixed if you stretch....



Not stretching is the cause of loss of flexibility, not weight training.  If you don't use something you lose it...period...


----------



## Colin_Linz

I don&#8217;t do Aikido, although I have trained in it at times. In Shorinji Kempo our juho is similar to Aikido in a number of ways. What I have noticed is that students that do weight training on a regular basis have much more trouble learning the techniques, this is also true to a lesser extent with our goho waza. To be honest I don&#8217;t know if there is a physiological reason for this or if it is just because they can mask bad technique with strength and therefore don&#8217;t get to understand the techniques as completely. I do know that some of the best ways of understanding some of our techniques is to train with females. As a generalisation they are physically weaker than men and to get to apply the techniques effectively they need to develop a very good technical understanding of them.

Another aspect I have noticed is that many people that do regular weight training tend to move very robotically and carry a lot of tension in their bodies. I don&#8217;t know the cause of this and it is not an across the board observation, just one that applies to the majority of weight training students I have observed of the years.


----------



## hakuda

Hi
weights and aiki go hand in hand you just have to change the way you look at it.
remember the guys in goju use weights to develop sencertivity as much as strength.
i can explain more if needed.

Dan


----------



## howard

Carol Kaur said:


> Weight training isn't rubbish Jenna my friend. In fact, it is very good for the body and particularly beneficial for women.
> 
> Fat is burned...not in the intestines, not in the stomach, in the muscle tissues. More muscle tissue burns more fat ergo less risk for middle age paunch and all kinds of good things.
> 
> Weight bearing or load bearing exercises also increase bone density....which is of paramount importance for women as we get older, given our propensity for osteoporosis and other things that make us shrink and give us bad backs and otherwise be rather uncomfortable.
> 
> Load-bearing exercises could be jogging or walking uphill, but training with weights ensure a more complete body workout.
> 
> Weight training can be a particular benefit to women, Akidoka or not. However, there is quite a bit of scariness associated with such a thing.
> 
> Many women are trapped in to thinking that weigths make us look like some muscle-bound steroid-enhanced freak. Women can pump up naturally but it takes SERIOUSLY HARD training do do so. I lift regularly and I dare anyone to tell me I look pumped up. I don't.
> 
> Muscle tissue also weighs more than fat...and unfortunately some women get obsessed with what the numbers on the scale mean...even though women that weight train often look LEANER at a higher weight. Higher weight from improved muscle tissue, leaner from improved fat burning.
> 
> Now...specifically for Akidoka...you use your muscles. We all do. To put one foot in front of the other in a walking motion requires muscles. To raise your hand over your head requires muscles. To sit upright in your chair requries muscles. You use your muscles in your techniques, you just don't rely on brute strength.
> 
> Muscles are an important part of an everyone's body...including Akidoka. Respect them, and they will return the respect when you need them.


Very nice post IMO.  You've made several excellent points.


----------



## Colin_Linz

I doubt that anyone would say that weight training is not good for women or men. It does have very real health and fitness benefits.

Where I have seen it present as a problem in the past is how it affects peoples technique. As I said earlier I&#8217;m not an Aikidoka, but our Juho works using similar principles and techniques. Over the last 18 years I have noticed that all the kenshi that do a lot of weight training tend to rely on strength rather than technique, and quite a lot of them can&#8217;t move smoothly.

Now it may be that these people have not been taught to weight train correctly. It may be possible to do weight training and still learn good technique or not move like Robo Cop; and that I have only observed people that learnt poor training methods. If this is the case it demonstrates how hard it is to get decent instruction in weight training.


----------



## Hand Sword

Here, I would argue that instruction was poor, or not enough thoughtful practice by the participants was the cause. Using strength shows an immature martial art mentality. Everybody does it in the beginning, but enough time and practice improves the application.

As for moving smoothly, muscled athletes have no problem with that. Take pro Football players. Smoothness, speed, agility, and sensitivity are all present. Look at Pro wrestlers as well. Same thing applies. 

If the idea is of body builders. Then I would agree with the assessments above. They can push/pull heavy weights with no problem, but, not much else. You can build up with no athletic ability to be a body builder, But applying the arts forces you to use athletic attributes, great or small.


----------



## Colin_Linz

That could be a reason, though I doubt it. It is true that people do try to use strength over technique when new to martial arts; however when you notice a range of students from diverse clubs and countries, and the commonality is that they do a lot of weight training it makes you wonder why.

I think strong people in general take a little longer to develop skill sets like the ones Aikido use. I don&#8217;t think it is conscious action of theirs, just that their strength lets them get away with not taking the balance quite right or getting the angles of manipulation quite right. I know I learned a lot from my last visit to Japan where I got the chance to train with some experienced females. Being only small and light they have had no option than to get the techniques spot on or they fail to work.

Now I have no argument with weight training in general, but in the context of the question &#8220;will weight training be of benefit to my Aikido&#8221;? I would say that since Aikido does not rely on strength then there might be more effective ways to use the training time.


----------



## Colin_Linz

Hand Sword said:


> As for moving smoothly, muscled athletes have no problem with that. Take pro Football players. Smoothness, speed, agility, and sensitivity are all present. Look at Pro wrestlers as well. Same thing applies.



  We had a TV show out here called Dancing With The Stars. One of the contestants was a top footballer; obviously he had done quite a bit of weight training as no one has muscles like that normally. There is no doubt that he moved well on a football field, but given the different environment and demands of dance he moved like (in the words of one of the judges) a block of flats.

  I know that this doesnt prove anything and that some footballers might be able to dance, but then not all footballers look like him either. So perhaps when it come to weight training it may depend greatly on how much you devote to weight training and the type of weight training you do.


----------



## Hand Sword

Colin_Linz said:


> We had a TV show out here called Dancing With The Stars. One of the contestants was a top footballer; obviously he had done quite a bit of weight training as no one has muscles like that normally. There is no doubt that he moved well on a football field, but given the different environment and demands of dance he moved like (in the words of one of the judges) a block of flats.
> 
> I know that this doesnt prove anything and that some footballers might be able to dance, but then not all footballers look like him either. So perhaps when it come to weight training it may depend greatly on how much you devote to weight training and the type of weight training you do.


 

O.k. From the beginning, to the end there was a vast improvement in their dancing ability though, where they were convincing weren't they? It also crossed over on another show for figure skating. Again, in the end, HUGE improvements, some with great performances. I've also seen Aikidoka that moved like a block of flats also. Anything takes time and correct practice Aikido, football, etc.. So, no it doesn't prove anything. Apparently this football player was one of a few, and not the prototype. However, even he, with enough attention, could learn Aikido, dancing, or whatever.

Yes. How you weight train does matter. Yes. Traing time is the key to Aikido (even more so than the other styles)--and, this applies to everyone.


----------



## Hand Sword

Colin_Linz said:


> That could be a reason, though I doubt it. It is true that people do try to use strength over technique when new to martial arts; however when you notice a range of students from diverse clubs and countries, and the commonality is that they do a lot of weight training it makes you wonder why.
> 
> I think strong people in general take a little longer to develop skill sets like the ones Aikido use. I dont think it is conscious action of theirs, just that their strength lets them get away with not taking the balance quite right or getting the angles of manipulation quite right. I know I learned a lot from my last visit to Japan where I got the chance to train with some experienced females. Being only small and light they have had no option than to get the techniques spot on or they fail to work.
> 
> Now I have no argument with weight training in general, but in the context of the question will weight training be of benefit to my Aikido? I would say that since Aikido does not rely on strength then there might be more effective ways to use the training time.


 
I agree with the second assessment. However, with enough time and practice, anyone could gain correct Aikido movements. It doesn't just have to be for strong people either. A lot of people, big and small, are uncoordinated. Aikido is a lot more difficult to get than other styles, which focus on hard movements. Also, yes being based on technique, smaller people are at an advantage in the beginning. Their whole lives have adapted to getting things done being smaller and weaker. Also remember that the first Aikidoka were men, who are bigger and stronger than the women, and look at how magical the old masters became. Proof of this argument. 

As for your first assessment, could be many factors.

Last, Yes, I also agree that time and Aikido practice is the key to getting it. (for everyone) And the context is whether or not weight training is TOTAL RUBBISH. In that context, no it is not. There are benefits.


----------



## Colin_Linz

Hand Sword said:


> I agree with the second assessment. However, with enough time and practice, anyone could gain correct Aikido movements. It doesn't just have to be for strong people either. A lot of people, big and small, are uncoordinated. Aikido is a lot more difficult to get than other styles, which focus on hard movements. Also, yes being based on technique, smaller people are at an advantage in the beginning. Their whole lives have adapted to getting things done being smaller and weaker. Also remember that the first Aikidoka were men, who are bigger and stronger than the women, and look at how magical the old masters became. Proof of this argument.
> 
> As for your first assessment, could be many factors.
> 
> Last, Yes, I also agree that time and Aikido practice is the key to getting it. (for everyone) And the context is whether or not weight training is TOTAL RUBBISH. In that context, no it is not. There are benefits.


  Im not saying it would be rubbish. Just that I believe it would not deliver great gains in understanding Aikido.

  It was my understanding that Aikidos founder was slightly built and sickly as a youth. This could be why he came to have a different understanding of his roots and developed Aikido. Doshin So, found when he started teaching Shorinji Kempo that he needed to change some of his techniques as he was a strong man in comparison to others at the time so he modified them so smaller and less strong people could apply them.

  Size is no barrier to understanding the techniques; people of all sizes have different levels of natural abilities, and were they don't practice and experience will eventually succeed. It just seemed to me that people that heavily weight train seem to make this barrier a little larger, and therefore take a little longer to get it compared to others.


----------



## HG1

Jenna-

Strength training, not a body building program or plyometrics are an excellent addition to your martial arts regimen. Developing athletic attributes will only enhance sensitivity, coordination & power of your technique. As an added bonus your physique will benefit as well. That being said, I do agree with you the training of the martial art has to take priority over everything else.


----------



## Hand Sword

Colin_Linz said:


> Im not saying it would be rubbish. Just that I believe it would not deliver great gains in understanding Aikido.
> 
> It was my understanding that Aikidos founder was slightly built and sickly as a youth. This could be why he came to have a different understanding of his roots and developed Aikido. Doshin So, found when he started teaching Shorinji Kempo that he needed to change some of his techniques as he was a strong man in comparison to others at the time so he modified them so smaller and less strong people could apply them.
> 
> Size is no barrier to understanding the techniques; people of all sizes have different levels of natural abilities, and were they don't practice and experience will eventually succeed. It just seemed to me that people that heavily weight train seem to make this barrier a little larger, and therefore take a little longer to get it compared to others.


 
Aah oK! I also agree with that. Heavy weight training (body building for size) trains the muscles one way, Aikido training another. People doing that would take a little longer to get it.


----------



## eyebeams

Morihei Ueshiba practiced strength training. He was called a "tetsujin" at the peak of his training. 'Nuff said.


----------



## tempus

Also, be aware that you can strength train and not gain huge amounts of muscle so your flexibility will still be there.  I think I mentioned this a long time ago, but I may look at things differently.  I train in Aikido for the slef defense aspect and I do believe that no matter how much time I train there is the chance in a situation that I will make a mistake, since I do make them in my attack lines.  With that being said when a mistake is made I am strong enough to generate enough force to get the attacker moving again, throw an attacker or strike with a lot of power.  So I am one Aikido person who sees being stronger as good thing.  Will this change when I am in my eighties and lose that strength? - Not sure, but I will let you know in about 44 years


----------



## HG1

tempus said:


> I train Aikido for self defense I believe that no matter how much time I train there is the chance in a situation that I will make a mistake, since I do make them in my attack lines. With that being said when a mistake is made I am strong enough to generate enough force to get the attacker moving again, throw an attacker or strike with a lot of power.


 
Yes!  Practice makes perfect, that's the ideal we as martial artist strive for - perfect technique.  The reality is we will probably be somewhere between 30%-70% percent of perfection in combat.  Strength &/or power is where the difference is made up.


----------



## exile

tempus said:


> So I am one Aikido person who sees being stronger as good thing.  Will this change when I am in my eighties and lose that strength? - Not sure, but I will let you know in about 44 years



Tempus---

the more you train for strength now (and continue training), the stronger you'll be in your 80s. I read a couple of studies a few years back carried out by exercise physiologists interested in the effectiveness of strength training for older people. The authors of both studies noted, with something like genuine surprise, that older people, even those with seriously reduced mobility, responsed quite dramatically to well-designed resistance training regimes, significantly increasing their muscle mass and consequently bone strength. What this said to me was that the metabolic effects of serious weight training can trigger muscle development even in the very old (some of these people were in their 90s), which shows that there is no point where it just `switches off'. So while you likely won't be as strong in forty-four years as your weight training has made you to this point, you will---if you keep it up---be _way_ stronger than you would be if you weren't still doing it at that point.

I keep running into posts where people seem to believe that muscular development slows you down. But Bruce Lee, who was incredibly fast and fluid in his movements till the day he died, was an avid strength trainer who throughout his life experimented with ways to increase his lean muscle mass. I remember photos of him from the last years of his career---he was like a walking anatomical chart of human muscle groups, and people who knew him remember him as being both quick and with a phenomenal strength-to-weight ratio. And as far as sensitivity is concerned---I'm no Aikidoist, but as was stated earlier in several posts on this forum, from a purely neurophysiological angle, there is absolutely no reason why increased muscle mass would compromise awareness of what is taking place at the level of the skin. So all in all, I can't see why weight training should be a deficit for Aikido practitioners any more than it is for people in the striking arts...


----------



## tempus

I got my personal training certificate a few months ago.  I have to get credits in other studies to keep it.  I just finished studying functional training which has added a lot to my work outs.  It is training based on body movement and not by muscle groups.  It does a lot with bands, medicine balls, and dumbbells.  It is very good training for martial artists.  I rently started playing around with throwing a medicine ball as high and far as it could go, run over, squat to pick up and thro it back.  After like 20 you get winded and it works the arms, shoulders, back and legs.  Mix this up with Squats, deadliftsm etc... and you get well rounded workouts for strength, endurance and core.

My next study will be body weight training and then training the elderly.  So once I get to that I will probaly hit a lot of those studies.  I hope it is true that I will still have some of the better then average strangth at 80.  I spent a lot of money on my weights and would hate to not use them


----------



## exile

tempus said:


> I got my personal training certificate a few months ago.  I have to get credits in other studies to keep it.  I just finished studying functional training which has added a lot to my work outs.  It is training based on body movement and not by muscle groups.  It does a lot with bands, medicine balls, and dumbbells.  It is very good training for martial artists.  I rently started playing around with throwing a medicine ball as high and far as it could go, run over, squat to pick up and thro it back.  After like 20 you get winded and it works the arms, shoulders, back and legs.  Mix this up with Squats, deadliftsm etc... and you get well rounded workouts for strength, endurance and core.



I've mostly done high-intensity Mentzer/Sisco & Little style training---very heavy, best-leverage-range weights, very short reps, power rack sort of thing. I've added a lot of muscle over the past decade (which began when I was 50, so I can attest personally to the fact that your age doesn't present a real obstacle to strength gains and muscle growth---between then and now I've added on about 25 lbs of lean muscle, over when I started---`only' two and half lbs a year, on average; but if you keep doing it....). But the program you describe sounds quite interesting---something aimed at fluidity and quickness, maybe?



tempus said:


> My next study will be body weight training and then training the elderly.  So once I get to that I will probaly hit a lot of those studies.  I hope it is true that I will still have some of the better then average strangth at 80.



As far as I know, every study of weight training in the elderly ever carried out (not that there have been a huge number of them) has supported the bottom-line conclusion that a well-designed program can deliver strength gains and muscle growth at any age. And while the research I was referring to didn't have a lot to say about osteoporosis in general, it definitely showed that the bone density of the people in the study increased in proportion to their growth in muscularity---as you'd expect, eh? 



tempus said:


> I spent a lot of money on my weights and would hate to not use them



I figure, as long as you keep using them, those weights are going to pay you big dividends...


----------



## exile

Gave up on squats, though---way too much spinal compression, even though I used a manta ray. Leg presses are much safer, I think...


----------



## tempus

I have recnetly dropped the weight on my squats and started going a little lower. I was finding that I was not able to get low enought for some of techniques. Also, finially got the form and contracting of Ab's during the form correctly down.   I do have a leg press in the basement, should have seen my wife's face when that showed up at the front door.  It is kind of buried now while I finish off the basement.  I have the sanding and paint part left.  I have it setup where half is a weight room and the other half I can lay three 8ft x 4ft mats for Aikido training.  I also have a heavy bag in the far corner and a treadmill area.  Just have to find the time to finish everything.

Not sure if I can plug things on this forum, but the functional training book I just finshed was from a guy named Juan Carlos Santana.  I think amazon has some of his books and DVD's.  The books are cheaper then the study version I bought since I have to pay for the testing afterwards.


----------



## exile

tempus said:


> I have recnetly dropped the weight on my squats and started going a little lower. I was finding that I was not able to get low enought for some of techniques. Also, finially got the form and contracting of Ab's during the form correctly down.



Yeah, that's another thing about squats: if your abs aren't really strong it doesn't matter a bit how good your quads already are. That does't mean that squats aren't good if you can do them---they work your core and shoulders as well as your quads, one of the all time greatest compound excercises there is. But they're pretty unforgiving. I used to do them in a power rack, short range, with the bins way up high and even then, it got to be too much---I could almost _feel_ the discs in my spine imploding.



tempus said:


> I do have a leg press in the basement, should have seen my wife's face when that showed up at the front door.



That _will_ happen... good that got to keep it though. _I_ wouldn't have been able to...



tempus said:


> It is kind of buried now while I finish off the basement.  I have the sanding and paint part left.  I have it setup where half is a weight room and the other half I can lay three 8ft x 4ft mats for Aikido training.  I also have a heavy bag in the far corner and a treadmill area.  Just have to find the time to finish everything.



Good that you have enough space for all that---I'd love to get a heavy bag, but there's nowhere in our house to hang it. 



tempus said:


> Not sure if I can plug things on this forum, but the functional training book I just finshed was from a guy named Juan Carlos Santana.  I think amazon has some of his books and DVD's.  The books are cheaper then the study version I bought since I have to pay for the testing afterwards.



Sounds interesting---I'll go to Amazon and check it out. Thanks for the reference.


----------



## Jenna

Hand Sword said:


> I agree with the second assessment. However, with enough time and practice, anyone could gain correct Aikido movements. It doesn't just have to be for strong people either. A lot of people, big and small, are uncoordinated. Aikido is a lot more difficult to get than other styles, which focus on hard movements. Also, yes being based on technique, smaller people are at an advantage in the beginning. Their whole lives have adapted to getting things done being smaller and weaker. Also remember that the first Aikidoka were men, who are bigger and stronger than the women, and look at how magical the old masters became. Proof of this argument.
> 
> As for your first assessment, could be many factors.
> 
> Last, Yes, I also agree that time and Aikido practice is the key to getting it. (for everyone) And the context is whether or not weight training is TOTAL RUBBISH. In that context, no it is not. There are benefits.


Hey Hand Sword-san  yes good points here.. and there is often an assumption that smaller folk (of which I am one) are somehow naturally more adept at Aikido than larger guys from the outset.. I am not certain where this stereotype originates from but simply is not true.. I still maintain though that having the "appropriate" muscle / bulk for your frame is of utmost importance in Aikido.. and I am not referring to muscle TONE but rather bulk.. I can only relate my observations anecdotally but those excessively bulky guys.. and it IS mostly guys.. do not have the contact sensitivity to give them the edge in reaction.. I have found I can use this to my own advantage and have realised recently that I am less apprehensive doing any kind of randori with bulky guys than with less bulky guys irrespective of height or natural build simply because I know they react slower to whatever I might try..

But to reply to your point I do not with to deride anyones training and weights I appreciate are an important aspect of many arts even Aikido.. all I am saying is that I do not believe there is merit in bulking up to ANY extent if an artist is serious about maximising the yield from their Aikido and their Aikido training..

Thank you again  

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


----------



## exile

Jenna said:


> I still maintain though that having the "appropriate" muscle / bulk for your frame is of utmost importance in Aikido.. and I am not referring to muscle TONE but rather bulk.. I can only relate my observations anecdotally but those excessively bulky guys.. and it IS mostly guys.. do not have the contact sensitivity to give them the edge in reaction



Jenna---something you said there rang a bell. I have done enough heavy lifting over the past ten years to know that a lot of people you meet in the gym with extreme muscle development got that way because of steroids, growth hormone and other chemical aids. It's very hard for women to get bulky in their upper bodies because they have a much smaller number of fast-twitch muscles above the waist than men do; but it's also hard for most men, even big `endomorph' types, to get really hyperdeveloped musculature. The body fights you tooth and nail on the point. There's a very small number of women and a somewhat larger number of men use steroids to overrided the body's reluctance to add muscle tissue, but unlike normal muscle growth in adolescence, the growth that comes from steroids really _is_ out of proportion to their bodies---literally: their skeletal frame and connective tissue do not bulk up to match the muscle growth that they anabolic cocktails give them. So a really bulky guy has a lot of muscles which are unsupported by the anatomical infrastructure they would need to be able to _use_ those muscles in the kind of functionally effective way that martial arts demand. Pro bodybuilders are always having to undergo serious surgery to fix or reattach torn muscles/tendons/ligaments, for just this reason---they need much stronger attachments than they have to do what they think they should be able to do with rows or presses. Dorian Yates, the former Mr. Olympia, is just the most recent example I can think of among elite bodybuilders who had to retire when they finally tore too much muscle for anyone to really fix, but the same thing happens at much less exalted levels of weight training.

So it _could_be that some of the really bulky guys you've dealt with in Aikido have just this problem---big, steroidally-grown muscles, but not nearly enough of the other anatomical supports necessary to actually apply that strength. Imagine a very big heavy puppet controlled by very thin, not very strong cords, trying to do something that requires efficient movement, fluidity and good balance...

It's one possibility, at least, for some of the cases you've referred to.


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## exile

I just wanted to make it clear that I don't think every guy with extreme muscle development is using steriods or other chemical boosts; there's quite a small, lucky minority of men whose metabolism lets them add muscle relatively easily just through training. These guys are different story altogether---they move as fluidly and easily as anyone else, and their muscle development isn't out of kilter with the rest of their anatomy. 

Unfortunately, by all accounts steroid use is very common among competitive athletes and anabolic drug use is being detected at younger and younger ages. I think I've read something in one of the major newsmagazines about increasing use of anabolic hormones by high school athletes. It seems to be quite widespread and is likely to remain so.


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## Hand Sword

Jenna said:


> Hey Hand Sword-san  yes good points here.. and there is often an assumption that smaller folk (of which I am one) are somehow naturally more adept at Aikido than larger guys from the outset.. I am not certain where this stereotype originates from but simply is not true.. I still maintain though that having the "appropriate" muscle / bulk for your frame is of utmost importance in Aikido.. and I am not referring to muscle TONE but rather bulk.. I can only relate my observations anecdotally but those excessively bulky guys.. and it IS mostly guys.. do not have the contact sensitivity to give them the edge in reaction.. I have found I can use this to my own advantage and have realised recently that I am less apprehensive doing any kind of randori with bulky guys than with less bulky guys irrespective of height or natural build simply because I know they react slower to whatever I might try..
> 
> But to reply to your point I do not with to deride anyones training and weights I appreciate are an important aspect of many arts even Aikido.. all I am saying is that I do not believe there is merit in bulking up to ANY extent if an artist is serious about maximising the yield from their Aikido and their Aikido training..
> 
> Thank you again
> 
> Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
> Jenna


 
Well, I don't know what you're trying to argue against me, but, If your point is about bulky muscles, and maximizing Aikido, I think you are agreeing with me. I already said Bulk will inhibit. However, as with everything else, enough focused training can remedy that. Eventually, big, bulky, people can do Aikido. It might take longer to get, but, they will get it, if dedicated. Just like everything else in life. It takes time and focus for everyone.


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## Jenna

exile said:


> Jenna---something you said there rang a bell. I have done enough heavy lifting over the past ten years to know that a lot of people you meet in the gym with extreme muscle development got that way because of steroids, growth hormone and other chemical aids. It's very hard for women to get bulky in their upper bodies because they have a much smaller number of fast-twitch muscles above the waist than men do; but it's also hard for most men, even big `endomorph' types, to get really hyperdeveloped musculature. The body fights you tooth and nail on the point. There's a very small number of women and a somewhat larger number of men use steroids to overrided the body's reluctance to add muscle tissue, but unlike normal muscle growth in adolescence, the growth that comes from steroids really _is_ out of proportion to their bodies---literally: their skeletal frame and connective tissue do not bulk up to match the muscle growth that they anabolic cocktails give them. So a really bulky guy has a lot of muscles which are unsupported by the anatomical infrastructure they would need to be able to _use_ those muscles in the kind of functionally effective way that martial arts demand. Pro bodybuilders are always having to undergo serious surgery to fix or reattach torn muscles/tendons/ligaments, for just this reason---they need much stronger attachments than they have to do what they think they should be able to do with rows or presses. Dorian Yates, the former Mr. Olympia, is just the most recent example I can think of among elite bodybuilders who had to retire when they finally tore too much muscle for anyone to really fix, but the same thing happens at much less exalted levels of weight training.
> 
> So it _could_be that some of the really bulky guys you've dealt with in Aikido have just this problem---big, steroidally-grown muscles, but not nearly enough of the other anatomical supports necessary to actually apply that strength. Imagine a very big heavy puppet controlled by very thin, not very strong cords, trying to do something that requires efficient movement, fluidity and good balance...
> 
> It's one possibility, at least, for some of the cases you've referred to.


Hey mister exile 
Yes I do agree with what you are saying.. To my mind I think there is a natural equilibrium point (specific to their artI mean) that everyone has. Fall below that point and I think muscle tone is insufficient.. I mean even Aikidoka have to have sufficient grip to be of any use practically.. But likewise I think that once the practitioner continues developing muscle mass beyond their natural point.. and yeah I know this is completely anecdotal but bear with me.. I think once the practitioner exceeds the natural muscle mass for their art then their performance moves in retrograde.. I think this is true for a great many arts which utilise finesse over power.. Again I am not being disparaging or anyone or their methods but simply stating my observations with regard to Aikido..

Thank you again for your thoughts! 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## Jenna

Hand Sword said:


> Well, I don't know what you're trying to argue against me, but, If your point is about bulky muscles, and maximizing Aikido, I think you are agreeing with me. I already said Bulk will inhibit. However, as with everything else, enough focused training can remedy that. Eventually, big, bulky, people can do Aikido. It might take longer to get, but, they will get it, if dedicated. Just like everything else in life. It takes time and focus for everyone.


Hey Hand Sword-san 
No I aint arguing I promise  I am just trying to pick up on your points.. Apologies if I appear otherwise 
Jenna


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## searcher

I have not read all of the posts so please forgive me if this has been brought up and I missed it.   As the other personal trainers and group fitness instructors on here will agree with me on my point, I hope.   it is extremely difficult for any individual to put on a large ammount of muscle mass without any "chemical enhancement".   I am not saying that you will not/can not put on muscle mass, but at the levels that I think you are talking about it is rather unlikely.   There are always exceptions to this, but for the most part this holds true.   An increase in strength can always be an asset, but if an individual starts to rely on it over their technique I see how this could be a detriment.   These are all my own observations and opinions.


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## exile

searcher said:


> I have not read all of the posts so please forgive me if this has been brought up and I missed it.   As the other personal trainers and group fitness instructors on here will agree with me on my point, I hope.   it is extremely difficult for any individual to put on a large ammount of muscle mass without any "chemical enhancement".   I am not saying that you will not/can not put on muscle mass, but at the levels that I think you are talking about it is rather unlikely.   There are always exceptions to this, but for the most part this holds true.   An increase in strength can always be an asset, but if an individual starts to rely on it over their technique I see how this could be a detriment.   These are all my own observations and opinions.



Hi searcher---this is _exactly_ what I was suggesting in my previous post on this thread; it occured to me that the exaggerated bulk of steroidal ehnancement accompanied by the failure of steroids to increase the skeletal frame or, even more important, the controlling connective tissues---ligaments and tendons---would predictably result in very muscular guys who were capable of only awkward movement, given that they didn't possess the means to _move_ all that muscle fluidly. There's another point that arose in a thread Shesulsa started in a different forum about an article suggesting a causal relation between prolonged exposure to artificially boosted testosterone levels on the one hand and serious neurological damage on the other. Given that bodybuilders and others who bulk up with test typically use various steroids in the mix as well, and that steroids are really a kind of synthetic testosterone, it's probably the case that a lot of these guys are experiencing serious neuromuscular damage as a result of their chemical intake over several years.  Put all the factors together and you wonder how guys who fit that profile can even walk, let alone perform an MA that centers on fluid motion, equilibrium and sensitivity of response.


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## exile

Jenna said:


> Hey mister exile
> To my mind I think there is a natural equilibrium point (specific to their artI mean) that everyone has. Fall below that point and I think muscle tone is insufficient.. I mean even Aikidoka have to have sufficient grip to be of any use practically.. But likewise I think that once the practitioner continues developing muscle mass beyond their natural point



The thing is, though, you really have to wonder how someone actually _gets_ to develop muscle mass past that point. Most people, regardless of body type, have to fight for every ounce of new lean tissue; you can go for weeks or months on frustrating plateaus before you start seeing new results of your weight training---and yet, you often see guys in serious iron gyms who have way too much muscle for their skeletal frames... something's wrong there, you can see it right away. That's always a warning bell for me. 

Apart from the inability to control `synthetically grown' muscle, there's that article Shesulsa posted a link to which shows a connection between artificially induced high testosterone levels and neural damage. There are so many negatives attached to artificial bulk of the kind you're referring to that it's not surprising these guys' Aikido abilities are impaired...


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## Jenna

exile said:


> The thing is, though, you really have to wonder how someone actually _gets_ to develop muscle mass past that point. Most people, regardless of body type, have to fight for every ounce of new lean tissue; you can go for weeks or months on frustrating plateaus before you start seeing new results of your weight training---and yet, you often see guys in serious iron gyms who have way too much muscle for their skeletal frames... something's wrong there, you can see it right away. That's always a warning bell for me.
> 
> Apart from the inability to control `synthetically grown' muscle, there's that article Shesulsa posted a link to which shows a connection between artificially induced high testosterone levels and neural damage. There are so many negatives attached to artificial bulk of the kind you're referring to that it's not surprising these guys' Aikido abilities are impaired...


Hey mister exile 
I'm enjoying your scientific take on what I and it seems others also have observed. Thank you for this!
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## exile

Jenna said:


> Hey mister exile
> I'm enjoying your scientific take on what I and it seems others also have observed. Thank you for this!
> Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
> Jenna



Thanks much, Jenna! The problem is big and I think getting bigger---especially among university and even high school athletes. What surprises me a bit is that someone who bulks up chemically this way would drawn to a MA like Aikido, which emphasizes fluidity of movement rather than sheer strength. The fit doesn't seem right...


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## Jenna

exile said:


> Thanks much, Jenna! The problem is big and I think getting bigger---especially among university and even high school athletes. What surprises me a bit is that someone who bulks up chemically this way would drawn to a MA like Aikido, which emphasizes fluidity of movement rather than sheer strength. The fit doesn't seem right...


Hey mister exile 
Yes I agree regarding the scale of this issue.. I also agree with your point about seemingly "inappropriate" choices of arts.. however I think folk simply do not stop to think what is *appropriate* mass for their chosen activity.. And I think that is pretty much endemic to our society now whereby most of us to varying extents follow the stereotypical bodily images that we model ourselves on or desire to be like.. I mean the lithe and toned women and the broad shouldered rippling guys.. not that I am averse to a little rippling every once in a while truth be told.. ha!  

Seriously though.. I think this is a particular issue within my own art Aikido but I do not believe overdevelopment (leading to poor art dynamics) is confined to just my art. I have seen the same what I would class as OVERdevelopment in a friends Hung Gar Kung Fu class where the belief among the guys I have got to know is that gains in muscle mass are proportionate to gains in power for effective sparring. 

I think not only is it a mistake to equate muscle mass to USEABLE power.. but I also think that arts like HGKF and others are not solely about power anyway.. in fact I think very few arts are *solely* about power.. in my experience all arts are a subtle balance of power and finesse.. with overdevelopment being at the expense of finesse and not automatically providing any gains in power either!

What do you think??

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## exile

Jenna said:


> Hey mister exile
> Yes I agree regarding the scale of this issue.. I also agree with your point about seemingly "inappropriate" choices of arts.. however I think folk simply do not stop to think what is *appropriate* mass for their chosen activity.. And I think that is pretty much endemic to our society now whereby most of us to varying extents follow the stereotypical bodily images that we model ourselves on or desire to be like.. I mean the lithe and toned women and the broad shouldered rippling guys.. not that I am averse to a little rippling every once in a while truth be told.. ha!





Jenna said:


> Hi Jenna---of course not!---who would be?! ;-)  But it's true that for many people, particularly those involved in seriously athletic activities, there is a `more is better' view of the matter which comes (I suspect) from overrating the role of sheer strength in those activities. All other things being equal, of course, strength is a major plus. But things are almost never equal. I've read things by old-school Yosemite climbers---the people who did solo hardest-route pitches up El Capitan and Half-Dome in the sixties and seventies---talking about how a lot of new climbers in the Valley these days are incredibly muscular from pumping iron (and who knows what else) whose grasp of rock-climbing technique is marginal. Nothing at all wrong with strength, but in balance with technique, these people are saying, and that's the heart of the problem.
> 
> 
> 
> Jenna said:
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously though.. I think this is a particular issue within my own art Aikido but I do not believe overdevelopment (leading to poor art dynamics) is confined to just my art. I have seen the same what I would class as OVERdevelopment in a friends Hung Gar Kung Fu class where the belief among the guys I have got to know is that gains in muscle mass are proportionate to gains in power for effective sparring.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A chap who trains in the same place I do, who's into MMA and kickboxing, has done some of the hardest punching I've ever seen, but he's not what I would call muscular---not flabby by any means; lean, tough and wiry is more like it, but he does not have massive biceps or huge deltoids or pecs or... but what he does have is the ability to quickly prerotate his hips right before he punches and the convert the followup rotation into tremendous torque that carries through to his shoulders and punching arm. The key point is _quick_. He's a semipro fighter in Columbus and is making a serious name for himself here, based on the impact he can generate by rapid repeated use of this technique to produce front-hand jabs that are way more powerful than anyone expects a jab to be.  If he didn't have good musculature he couldn't deliver that kind of force, but it's far from the  source of that force. I think this kind of thing illustrated the general point you're making about people who mistakenly assume that the only root to power is adding muscle (by whatever means)...
> 
> 
> 
> Jenna said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think not only is it a mistake to equate muscle mass to USEABLE power.. but I also think that arts like HGKF and others are not solely about power anyway.. in fact I think very few arts are *solely* about power.. in my experience all arts are a subtle balance of power and finesse.. with overdevelopment being at the expense of finesse and not automatically providing any gains in power either!
> 
> What do you think??
> 
> Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
> Jenna
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> In a word, yes, I believe you're quite right. Weight training for muscle mass is very demanding and if you're doing it correctly. It definitely takes it out of you for other activities as well (when I'm doing heavy weights consistently, during the first two or three days after an hour-long lifting session I don't have the energy to do very much of anything else that demands a lot of exertion). I try to space my workouts far apart---a month between workouts for the same muscle groups---to give myself a chance to recover fully. But anyone who devotes a huge amount of time to weight training is probably depleting resources they need for all the other training that MAs involve. Recovery rates go way up when steroids and test enter the picture.. but the destructive effects just are not worth the strength gained. So an allocation of some time to strength training, some time to work on flow and technique, to relaxation, stretching and so on is the best bet.
> 
> There's another thing that's struck me, which is that it's hard to gain strength _in the right places_ for martial art applications by lifting weights. Just increasing the size of your thigh muscles is not going to help you that much in generating power or height range for TKD kicks, for example. I don't really understand precisely how the muscle groups involved interact in a good-form, mid-height rear leg side kick, but increases in leg muscle mass are not necessarily going to allow you to do that kick in slow motion, in perfect balance, and freeze it for twenty seconds. The only way to learn to do that is to practice it. Working with ankle weights can help, but working the leg press machine isn't going to convert directly into the ability to carry out that move. You have to practice the technique itself to get better at the technique, and that's the point,  I think: the best strength training for MAs is practicing your MA---_reasonble_ strength training for all-around health, bone density and so on is good too, but for most people that won't yield huge muscles. There'll be some increasein size, but no one will mistake you for a pro body builder...
> 
> The way I think of it is, cut is good, bulky almost certainly isn't...just my take on it, of course; but it's the approach that I've found works best for me.
Click to expand...


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## Jenna

exile said:


> Jenna said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Jenna---of course not!---who would be?! ;-) But it's true that for many people, particularly those involved in seriously athletic activities, there is a `more is better' view of the matter which comes (I suspect) from overrating the role of sheer strength in those activities. All other things being equal, of course, strength is a major plus. But things are almost never equal. I've read things by old-school Yosemite climbers---the people who did solo hardest-route pitches up El Capitan and Half-Dome in the sixties and seventies---talking about how a lot of new climbers in the Valley these days are incredibly muscular from pumping iron (and who knows what else) whose grasp of rock-climbing technique is marginal. Nothing at all wrong with strength, but in balance with technique, these people are saying, and that's the heart of the problem.
> 
> 
> 
> A chap who trains in the same place I do, who's into MMA and kickboxing, has done some of the hardest punching I've ever seen, but he's not what I would call muscular---not flabby by any means; lean, tough and wiry is more like it, but he does not have massive biceps or huge deltoids or pecs or... but what he does have is the ability to quickly prerotate his hips right before he punches and the convert the followup rotation into tremendous torque that carries through to his shoulders and punching arm. The key point is _quick_. He's a semipro fighter in Columbus and is making a serious name for himself here, based on the impact he can generate by rapid repeated use of this technique to produce front-hand jabs that are way more powerful than anyone expects a jab to be. If he didn't have good musculature he couldn't deliver that kind of force, but it's far from the source of that force. I think this kind of thing illustrated the general point you're making about people who mistakenly assume that the only root to power is adding muscle (by whatever means)...
> 
> 
> 
> In a word, yes, I believe you're quite right. Weight training for muscle mass is very demanding and if you're doing it correctly. It definitely takes it out of you for other activities as well (when I'm doing heavy weights consistently, during the first two or three days after an hour-long lifting session I don't have the energy to do very much of anything else that demands a lot of exertion). I try to space my workouts far apart---a month between workouts for the same muscle groups---to give myself a chance to recover fully. But anyone who devotes a huge amount of time to weight training is probably depleting resources they need for all the other training that MAs involve. Recovery rates go way up when steroids and test enter the picture.. but the destructive effects just are not worth the strength gained. So an allocation of some time to strength training, some time to work on flow and technique, to relaxation, stretching and so on is the best bet.
> 
> There's another thing that's struck me, which is that it's hard to gain strength _in the right places_ for martial art applications by lifting weights. Just increasing the size of your thigh muscles is not going to help you that much in generating power or height range for TKD kicks, for example. I don't really understand precisely how the muscle groups involved interact in a good-form, mid-height rear leg side kick, but increases in leg muscle mass are not necessarily going to allow you to do that kick in slow motion, in perfect balance, and freeze it for twenty seconds. The only way to learn to do that is to practice it. Working with ankle weights can help, but working the leg press machine isn't going to convert directly into the ability to carry out that move. You have to practice the technique itself to get better at the technique, and that's the point, I think: the best strength training for MAs is practicing your MA---_reasonble_ strength training for all-around health, bone density and so on is good too, but for most people that won't yield huge muscles. There'll be some increasein size, but no one will mistake you for a pro body builder...
> 
> The way I think of it is, cut is good, bulky almost certainly isn't...just my take on it, of course; but it's the approach that I've found works best for me.
> 
> 
> 
> Hey mister exile
> wow thank you for all this.. your writing is really interesting to read and I find myself agreeing with it all.. I completely understand what you mean about gaining strength "in the right places" in other words in the right places for our arts.. I know when I trained kung fu sifu was keen on plyometric exercises such as the "clap push ups" and I think regimes built around these types of activities are much more conducive to the ideal physical martial arts state (if such a thing exists) than weights per se.. but again I am far from expert and am simply going by opinion.. one thing I did find interesting recently though.. and allow me a little digression.. was an article in GQ magazine.. yeah yeah I know.. I work in a garage and that is not the worst I have seen! .. but the article was on Jason Statham (the guy from The Transporter and other movies) but his exercise regime was phenomenal.. his activites were what I would class as "real world" training for what he was gonna do in his job.. and I reckon hes got a pretty sweeeeeet physique  not too large but developed for efficiency in his work.. and he has achieved it without bulking through weights.. anyways.. if you can get the article online perhaps you might find it interesting too..
> 
> Thank you again for your input my friend.. I appreciate it!
> 
> Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
> Jenna
Click to expand...


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## exile

Jenna said:


> Hey mister exile
> wow thank you for all this.. your writing is really interesting to read and I find myself agreeing with it all..



Jenna, thanks for the kind words. :asian: 



Jenna said:


> I completely understand what you mean about gaining strength "in the right places" in other words in the right places for our arts.. I know when I trained kung fu sifu was keen on plyometric exercises such as the "clap push ups" and I think regimes built around these types of activities are much more conducive to the ideal physical martial arts state (if such a thing exists) than weights per se.. but again I am far from expert and am simply going by opinion.. one thing I did find interesting recently though.. and allow me a little digression.. was an article in GQ magazine.. yeah yeah I know.. I work in a garage and that is not the worst I have seen! .. but the article was on Jason Statham (the guy from The Transporter and other movies) but his exercise regime was phenomenal.. his activites were what I would class as "real world" training for what he was gonna do in his job.. and I reckon hes got a pretty sweeeeeet physique  not too large but developed for efficiency in his work.. and he has achieved it without bulking through weights.. anyways.. if you can get the article online perhaps you might find it interesting too...



This sounds like the idea I've read about in various places called `functional strength', which sharp people in the fitness world have been promoting to counter the unhealthy male body image that started coming in a few years ago as kind of the `Y-chromosome' analogue of the impossible tall/big-busted/micro-waisted/endless-legged supermodel icon that women have been bombarded with in advertising for lo these many. The guy's version---massive cannon-ball shoulder, deeply sculpted pectorals and carved abdominals, huge biceps and (again) micro-waist, atop massive legs, and 8% body fat overall---is just as impossible, but under the influence of all this popular-culture imagery, an increasing number of men have been doing hormone supplementation and experimenting with steroids. Guys who try to do it chemical-free find that it can't be done: just as out of several billion women there are maybe a dozen or so that actually look the way supermodels are supposed to look, there are almost no males on the planet who can look like that just by plain vanilla weight training. But what these fitness people were pointing out is that it's possible to get lean, with well-developed muscles and good definition, by doing activities which actually demanded strength for particular applications. Male gymnasts, for example, for a long time have been known to developed really good physiques just from the kind of training that they have to do to excel at gymnastics. Soccer and rugby players develop powerful musculature in their legs just training for their respective sports (the New Zealand All-Blacks rugby team used to train by running in specially contructed giant `sandboxes', filled with about a foot of sand, to develop both terrific wind and tremendous power for their sport). The idea is, you gain the muscle strength you need by training---just as you said---under realistic conditions, but made enough harder during your training that when you actually have to perform, the conditions are easier than what you had been training for, boosting your performance. Everything you say about Jason Statham fits this training concept to a T... for most people, it's probably the most practical and rewarding way to train---I've done a fair amount of pure weight training over the past ten years and while it works well, it's _boring_. I'll see if I can get hold of a copy of the article on JS---sounds like he's carrying out a consistent functional-strength training program.



Jenna said:


> Thank you again for your input my friend.. I appreciate it!
> 
> Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
> Jenna



Likewise, Jenna---and thanks for getting this thread up and running!


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## MrFunnieman

exile, if you can't find the GQ article, there was a similar one run in Men's Health.  I also thought Statham's  exercise philosophy was top notch


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## exile

MrFunnieman said:


> exile, if you can't find the GQ article, there was a similar one run in Men's Health.  I also thought Statham's  exercise philosophy was top notch



Thanks much for the reference---it might be easier for me to get hold of a copy of M'sH than GQ, and also for your impression of Statham's ex program---sounds like knows exactly how to strength-train for his particular purposes.


----------

