# Lame wing tsun vs wing chun fight



## ninjawt (Jun 29, 2016)




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## JowGaWolf (Jun 29, 2016)

Not sure why this is considered lame?  You are looking at a fight in an open space and both systems are close area combat systems and are trained as such.  If anything it just shows a limitation that everyone knows about the system. 

Even if these guys were good in actually fighting, they would still have the challenge of closing the gap.  The video should be used as a good case study to discuss ways on how to effectively close the gap.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 29, 2016)

And the point of posting this poorly shot video is?


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## ninjawt (Jun 29, 2016)

It's lame cause you can clearly see no of them has ever done any serious sparring. And it shows.


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## ninjawt (Jun 29, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> And the point of posting this poorly shot video is?


Both of them are teachers with years in the field. Both are from different wing chun families and both of them are very bad fighters.  I posted  the video to show that rank and tittles are irrelevant in a fight.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 29, 2016)

ninjawt said:


> Both of them are teachers with years in the field. Both are from different wing chun families and both of them are very bad fighters.  I posted  the video to show that rank and tittles are irrelevant in a fight.



Is this directed only at those two individuals?

Is this, as you say, only trying to make a point about titles? If it is that is far from clear by simply posting a video

Or is this a comment on Wing Chun in general?


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## ninjawt (Jun 29, 2016)

It's not a comment on wing chun, I also train in wing chun. It's a comment in the philosophy and culture behind the system. Most schools focus on chi sao training or the forms, but not sparring. And the thing with sparring, it takes years of practice to become good, and your teacher to be experienced in sparring too. So he/she can actually give you useful advice. I have been in many schools and talked with people training in different lineages, most don't spar.


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 29, 2016)

ninjawt said:


> It's lame cause you can clearly see no of them has ever done any serious sparring. And it shows.


 That has more to do with the people not the system


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 29, 2016)

ninjawt said:


> It's not a comment on wing chun, I also train in wing chun. It's a comment in the philosophy and culture behind the system. Most schools focus on chi sao training or the forms, but not sparring. And the thing with sparring, it takes years of practice to become good, and your teacher to be experienced in sparring too. So he/she can actually give you useful advice. I have been in many schools and talked with people training in different lineages, most don't spar.


Most people don't spar outside of their own system.  For example, Wing Chun spars against Wing Chun.  Karate spars against Karate.   If you want to get good with sparring then, one person has to spar with everyday punches and kicks that an average person would use, or with punches and kicks from another system and then you can learn to use your system against that.  

More specifically with Wing Chun the sparring should take place in both closed and open spaces.  If a fighter has the opportunity to move and use the space then he or she will take that opportunity.  As you saw in the video one guy literally ran after the other.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 29, 2016)

ninjawt said:


> It's not a comment on wing chun, I also train in wing chun. It's a comment in the philosophy and culture behind the system. Most schools focus on chi sao training or the forms, but not sparring. And the thing with sparring, it takes years of practice to become good, and your teacher to be experienced in sparring too. So he/she can actually give you useful advice. I have been in many schools and talked with people training in different lineages, most don't spar.



Thank You


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## Flying Crane (Jun 29, 2016)

I am of the opinion that sparring holds less value than the mainstream tends to assign to it.  And it really depends on the type of sparring because it is not all the same.  It can certainly have value and one can learn from it, but there are a lot of variables in the mix, so sparring is not the end-all final word on martial skill and ability.

It is really really easy to go on YouTube and find examples of crappy martial arts.  It is all over the place.  And the reasons you might think it's crappy might be very different reasons why I think it's crappy.  So perspective really carrys a lot of weight.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 29, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> I am of the opinion that sparring holds less value than the mainstream tends to assign to it.  And it really depends on the type of sparring because it is not all the same.  It can certainly have value and one can learn from it, but there are a lot of variables in the mix, so sparring is not the end-all final word on martial skill and ability.
> 
> It is really really easy to go on YouTube and find examples of crappy martial arts.  It is all over the place.  And the reasons you might think it's crappy might be very different reasons why I think it's crappy.  So perspective really carrys a lot of weight.



Agreed.

But I think sparing staying within ones style can be of great use. Meaning, using the style you train to spar with thereby learning how to apply it in a confrontation if necessary. And sparing others of other styles while sticking to your style helps one learn how to deal with outside of ones style.

However most of what people are referring to today as sparing is more along the lines of western boxing or Kick boxing and that does not lend itself well to learning how to apply the art you train to a confrontation. That teaches one how to apply boxing or kick boxing to a confrontation.

As for the YouTube Bits, they don't hold a whole lot of weight with me for the very reason you mentioned


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## LFJ (Jun 29, 2016)

The tall guy must be Phobius doing his "bridging" methods.


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## KPM (Jun 29, 2016)

Certainly,  neither guy in that video should be putting the title "Master" in front of their name!


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## drop bear (Jun 29, 2016)

Good to see kids out having fun.

I love how they just barged through everyone else. I have done that on the odd heavy session.


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## anerlich (Jun 29, 2016)

"Masters"? "Duel"?

Someone's overegging this big time.


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## Dylan9d (Jun 30, 2016)

Lol the "groundfighting" bit was hilarious........


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## geezer (Jun 30, 2016)

Dylan9d said:


> Lol the "groundfighting" bit was hilarious........




Why would you expect anything different? Contrary to the claims some 'chunners make, Wing Chun isn't about ground fighting, so you shouldn't expect to see sustained groundfighting. If you are going to have a _WC fight_, you need to:

a. Break within about 5-10 seconds of going to the ground.

b. Call it MMA and include grappling ...in addition to WC.

BTW this video is old stuff, apparently recently re-posted on youtube. For the life of me, I don't know why. Not exactly prime time material.


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## Phobius (Jul 1, 2016)

LFJ said:


> The tall guy must be Phobius doing his "bridging" methods.



I usually just ignore your posts, doing so I missed the fact that you keep thinking about me.

I am a tall guy,  he is a tall guy. That was all resemblance. As for bridging, I don't even think I want to know how you considered that to be funny.

It is an old movie and I think it is one best left dead and unmentioned. But if people wonder if it was crappy fight. It is how most fights with large weight and height difference would look like. The small guy keep moving and maintaining distance. Often using legs. If he is smart. The tall guy becomes nothing more than a chaser and will eventually get frustrated and overstretch his reach.


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## wingchun100 (Oct 19, 2016)

I'm not sure why the fact that it is a wide-open space makes any difference, even though wing chun is close-range. That is what closing the distance is all about.


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## Hanzou (Oct 19, 2016)

The Gracies are proved correct once again.

What a terrible display. And yet, such displays are common among "masters" of certain types of martial arts.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 19, 2016)

wingchun100 said:


> I'm not sure why the fact that it is a wide-open space makes any difference, even though wing chun is close-range. That is what closing the distance is all about.


The same way a person closes the distance in a small space is not the same way a person closes the distance in an open area.


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## wingchun100 (Oct 19, 2016)

Okay...still not seeing the point. If you train to be a kicker, then you learn how to get to that range. Same goes for punching and grappling range. It's not enough to learn how to use the techniques. You also need to learn how to control space. That goes for whether you bridge the gap from a long OR short distance.


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## guy b (Oct 19, 2016)

LFJ said:


> The tall guy must be Phobius doing his "bridging" methods.



Lots of excellent "bridging" in that clip


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 19, 2016)

wingchun100 said:


> Okay...still not seeing the point. If you train to be a kicker, then you learn how to get to that range. Same goes for punching and grappling range. It's not enough to learn how to use the techniques. You also need to learn how to control space. That goes for whether you bridge the gap from a long OR short distance.


You might not see the difference but it's there. This is why some boxer can stay on the outside while their opponent is unable to get close enough to get their inside game on.


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## Hanzou (Oct 19, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> Not sure why this is considered lame?  You are looking at a fight in an open space and both systems are close area combat systems and are trained as such.  If anything it just shows a limitation that everyone knows about the system.



It's probably considered "lame" because it's mostly "slap-fu" and people chasing each other around until they end up on the ground.

The fact that they're fighting in an open space shouldn't effect their overall fighting ability. Further, a fighting system should contain  solid gap closers

I bet their forms look really good.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 19, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> The fact that they're fighting in an open space shouldn't effect their overall fighting ability.


It shouldn't but, in reality it affects more than just those guys, and people in other systems.  The fact that there is training that teaches how to close the gap shows just how much of an issue this is for many fighters.  

If I always train to fight someone at a distance then I will have problem fighting close up.  If I always train to fight close up then I'll have trouble trying to close the gap because I have not trained to do so.  I actually have video of fellow classmates who have a good game at a distance but when the fighting got closed, they did horribly.  I have a classmate who does an excellent job in attacking but has a difficult time in defending when I return the favor with a high pressure attack.  

If you don't train how to close the gap then you'll be bad at it.  If you only train to fight people up close then you'll have trouble when your opponent is  highly evasive.


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## Hanzou (Oct 19, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> It shouldn't but, in reality it affects more than just those guys, and people in other systems.  The fact that there is training that teaches how to close the gap shows just how much of an issue this is for many fighters.
> 
> If I always train to fight someone at a distance then I will have problem fighting close up.  If I always train to fight close up then I'll have trouble trying to close the gap because I have not trained to do so.  I actually have video of fellow classmates who have a good game at a distance but when the fighting got closed, they did horribly.  I have a classmate who does an excellent job in attacking but has a difficult time in defending when I return the favor with a high pressure attack.
> 
> If you don't train how to close the gap then you'll be bad at it.  If you only train to fight people up close then you'll have trouble when your opponent is  highly evasive.



So are you saying that WC/VT lacks good gap closing training, or that these two were particularly bad at closing the gap?

Just for comparison's sake, Bjj also trains people to fight up close, but our gap closers look far better than that.

Also it should be noted that those two didn't look particularly good when they were fighting up close either.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 20, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> So are you saying that WC/VT lacks good gap closing training, or that these two were particularly bad at closing the gap?


I'm saying that they were bad at closing the gap.  

I would go as far as saying BJJ specializes in closing the gap.  They don't chase people around.  One of the basic understandings of closing the gap is not to chase your opponent.  The faster you chase the more likely they will run.  Instead BJJ practitioners are like alligators / crocodiles in that they stalk their opponent and move in such a way that gives a false sense of security that you can quickly get away because they are stalking so slowly.  I'm not sure if you seen any of these animals run, but they can run and move surprisingly fast over a short distance.  They only need about 5 or 6 feet to clamp down on their prey.  BJJ practitioners are just like this. Their grappling range is actually longer than the striking range. Meaning that they don't have to be within striking range to execute a grappling attack.

So in terms of BJJ closing the gap is a major part of what they do. With striking, if my arm or leg can't reach you then I'm fairly safe from a strike by you (unless there is a big height difference). With grapplers being out of striking range does not mean a person is out of grappling range.



Hanzou said:


> Also it should be noted that those two didn't look particularly good when they were fighting up close either.


I can't argue with that either. I expected more from "Wing Chun Masters" in the close striking game simply because that is supposed to be their area of expertise. I've seen non-wing chun masters do better with wing chun than what was shown in that video.  But then again it boils down to the person and their training or lack of it.


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## Hanzou (Oct 20, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm saying that they were bad at closing the gap.
> 
> I can't argue with that either. I expected more from "Wing Chun Masters" in the close striking game simply because that is supposed to be their area of expertise. I've seen non-wing chun masters do better with wing chun than what was shown in that video.  But then again it boils down to the person and their training or lack of it.



Well then why are you confused about someone calling this fight "lame"?


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## Tez3 (Oct 20, 2016)

Judging any style from practitioners who aren't very good is never a good idea. Sadly it seems those who aren't very good are the ones keen on posting videos up.


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## Juany118 (Oct 20, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Judging any style from practitioners who aren't very good is never a good idea. Sadly it seems those who aren't very good are the ones keen on posting videos up.



This I see as related to the growing trend, on both sides of the pond, to ignore not only experts but the direct experience of others.  People can go online, find videos, blogs, articles etc that support an uninformed opinion and they get what appears to be confirmation of same.


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## Hanzou (Oct 20, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Judging any style from practitioners who aren't very good is never a good idea. Sadly it seems those who aren't very good are the ones keen on posting videos up.



The two in the video were "masters" who are no doubt instructing other people in the art of Wing Chun. Unfortunately those two are far from the only examples of "masters" in Chinese martial arts who showcase lackluster skill.

How else should we judge a style that allows people like that to teach others?

Here's yet another example;


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## Juany118 (Oct 20, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm saying that they were bad at closing the gap.
> 
> I would go as far as saying BJJ specializes in closing the gap.  They don't chase people around.  One of the basic understandings of closing the gap is not to chase your opponent.  The faster you chase the more likely they will run.  Instead BJJ practitioners are like alligators / crocodiles in that they stalk their opponent and move in such a way that gives a false sense of security that you can quickly get away because they are stalking so slowly.  I'm not sure if you seen any of these animals run, but they can run and move surprisingly fast over a short distance.  They only need about 5 or 6 feet to clamp down on their prey.  BJJ practitioners are just like this. Their grappling range is actually longer than the striking range. Meaning that they don't have to be within striking range to execute a grappling attack.
> 
> ...



WC, in terms of their techniques, is very effective in closing for the simple fact that it needs to be close to be wholely effective.  The problem, imo, is more about training.  I have noticed that many people have an issue being in close and so hesitate, or fail to commit period, to bridging.  I put it on training because many of these people don't train hard enough and/or their instructor doesn't push them to overcome this mental block.  Since WC has techniques that you can "fall back" on when you don't bridge it can create issues where as wrestling, BJJ etc you HAVE to bridge, no choice, so people either get really good at it or move on.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 20, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> I have noticed that many people have an issue being in close and so hesitate, or fail to commit period, to bridging.


I actually get on, lecture, and constantly tell my classmates about the importance about not hesitating on committing to a technique.  Trusting in a technique 100% and committing fully to doing the technique is one of the scariest things to do in Kung Fu. If I had to list the biggest problems in martial arts it would be people bailing out of techniques because they don't trust the technique.


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## Tez3 (Oct 20, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> constantly tell my *classmate*



Does he/she ever feel picked on?


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 20, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Does he/she ever feel picked on?


 hmmm. slight typo with classmates (correction made) and yes they feel picked on ha ha ha.


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## drop bear (Oct 20, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Judging any style from practitioners who aren't very good is never a good idea. Sadly it seems those who aren't very good are the ones keen on posting videos up.



Is that the case though? I hear that a lot that for some reason you tube only shows bad martial arts. Or that since the invention of camera phones martial arts has somehow deteriorated.

Acutally I can attest to that. Because the other night I was out at the club being entertaining and awesome. But looking at the phone footage it only showed me being a drunken duchebag.

So there probably is a link to camera phones only showing the worst of people.


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## drop bear (Oct 20, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> WC, in terms of their techniques, is very effective in closing for the simple fact that it needs to be close to be wholely effective.  The problem, imo, is more about training.  I have noticed that many people have an issue being in close and so hesitate, or fail to commit period, to bridging.  I put it on training because many of these people don't train hard enough and/or their instructor doesn't push them to overcome this mental block.  Since WC has techniques that you can "fall back" on when you don't bridge it can create issues where as wrestling, BJJ etc you HAVE to bridge, no choice, so people either get really good at it or move on.



Ok. It isnt the amount of space or the time of day or the humidity of the floor that makes you fight like garbage.


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## Juany118 (Oct 20, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Is that the case though? I hear that a lot that for some reason you tube only shows bad martial arts. Or that since the invention of camera phones martial arts has somehow deteriorated.
> 
> Acutally I can attest to that. Because the other night I was out at the club being entertaining and awesome. But looking at the phone footage it only showed me being a drunken duchebag.
> 
> So there probably is a link to camera phones only showing the worst of people.


And as I said elsewhere, occasionally good video has been shown, you then simply claim it isn't WC, even though others see that it is or the person themselves goes into exhaustive detail explaining and demonstrating that it is.  A dang convenient way to argue a point.


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## Juany118 (Oct 20, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Ok. It isnt the amount of space or the time of day or the humidity of the floor that makes you fight like garbage.



So now your reduced to a personal insult?  Classy.  Last I checked that is against forum rules.


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## drop bear (Oct 20, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> So now your reduced to a personal insult?  Classy.  Last I checked that is against forum rules.



No that is sage advice. which I am sure is fine.


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## geezer (Oct 25, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Ok. It isnt the amount of space or the time of day or the humidity of the floor that makes you fight like garbage.



Don't know about the rest of you, but I fight like garbage because I'm old, out of shape, and spend more time posting on threads like this refuting lame accusations than I do training.


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## drop bear (Oct 25, 2016)

geezer said:


> Don't know about the rest of you, but I fight like garbage because I'm old, out of shape, and spend more time posting on threads like this refuting lame accusations than I do training.



Ditto.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 26, 2016)

When your opponent has right leg forward and you have left leg forward (a mirror stance), if you move toward your

- right, you will give your opponent a chance to attack you with both arms and both legs.
- left, you will only give your opponent a chance to attack you with his leading right arm and leading right leg. His back left arm and back left leg will be jammed by his own leading arm and leading leg.

Nothing to do with the style. The guy in that clip had used a wrong strategy (2.20 - 2.40).


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## wingchun100 (Oct 26, 2016)

geezer said:


> Don't know about the rest of you, but I fight like garbage because I'm old, out of shape, and spend more time posting on threads like this refuting lame accusations than I do training.




Probably true of me too.


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## wingchun100 (Oct 26, 2016)

In fact, there is a place called Mechanicville Fitness Center that has an MMA school in it. I went down there to see if I could rent space to teach wing chun. It might be outside my means, BUT the guy said I could come down and do some sparring with the MMA folks. Might give it a shot for some real-world testing. Or as close to real-world as I can get. You know how it goes.


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## Hanzou (Oct 27, 2016)

wingchun100 said:


> In fact, there is a place called Mechanicville Fitness Center that has an MMA school in it. I went down there to see if I could rent space to teach wing chun. It might be outside my means, BUT the guy said I could come down and do some sparring with the MMA folks. Might give it a shot for some real-world testing. Or as close to real-world as I can get. You know how it goes.



Make sure you get it recorded (honestly, they'll probably be recording you). MMA guys love that sort of thing.


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