# Pressure Point Strikes In Kenpo



## MJS (Feb 11, 2007)

I thought that we could discuss the use of pressure point strikes in Kenpo. I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on it. Is this something that you focus on when doing a technique? The pros/cons of it?

I came across this article by Mr. Sumner and felt that it was relevent to the discussion. 

IMO, I feel that this is a big plus if these targets can be hit.  I personally don't know every spot on the body, but there are some that I manage to hit with pretty good success.

Mike


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## kidswarrior (Feb 11, 2007)

Good topic, MJS. My opinion, in short, is that nerve centers are great to hit, squeeze, dig, etc., but I don't teach them as routine elements of self defense because of the precision required. And we know in the adrenaline-pumping, body-sweating, jerky-moving chaos which is the reality for most in the heat of battle, it's hard to be that precise.

But...as you said, a great plus to know them and if an opening presents itself, then go for it.

As a sort of qualifier on what I said about not teaching them: I do put some stress on the more exposed pressure points (as philtrum, radial nerve, etc.--about 30 total), which are also more likely to be open, and also can be hit using the large body movements implanted in muscle memory (no phoenix fist required, etc.). This is especially true as students gain experience and fighting 'slows down' for them. But for the 100+(?) pressure points, no I don't teach it as a system to live by.

Doesn't mean I don't believe it couldn't be done as a complete system, just would take longer to become effective than I believe my students would have the patience to wait.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 11, 2007)

Hi Mike,

As I recently began studying with Mr. Sumner, I have defintely noticed that he has been discussing the appropriate nerve targets integrated into the SD techs.  From day one, he has been pointing these out, and demonstrating them on me with sufficient authority to leave little doubt in my mind.  While I have been aware of many of them from my prior training, I have a feeling they will be brought to a higher level of clarity thru my training with Mr. Sumner.  I am very much looking forward to it.  I'll share any hot tidbits that seem especially good.

As a side note, Mr. Sumner has expressed that we should keep in mind that much of what we do in kenpo can still be highly effective, even if we don't manage to "get" it 100%.  This would be true, I believe, for the nerve strikes as well.  If the nerve isn't hit properly, the trauma caused by the strike itself can still have a very strong effect.  Hitting the nerve is extra insurance.


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## 14 Kempo (Feb 11, 2007)

Yes, I agree, good topic ... I, too, believe that pressure point attacks are too precise for a lot of people in a street war. In the beginning, soft targets seem to be more economical. On the other hand, as a person moves forward in thier martial arts training, they should become more and more aware of pressure points. Pressure points can be leveraged in many self-defense situations such as grabs and definately used to better arm and joint locks. Pressure points are also a great equalizer. Pressure point accentuate pain.
It can be assumed, bullies or street thugs work on fear, they want to feel they can dominate. So, with that in mind, most attakers will be larger beings, rarely will a smaller person be the attacker, unless a weapon is involved. So, hitting soft targets, hitting and manipulating pressure points may be crucial to survival. Pressure points may also lessen the damage invoked upon another person, and, although I will do what it takes to survive, I would like to think a could control a situation without maming another ...


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## jdinca (Feb 12, 2007)

Pressure points/nerve centers make for great targets but, as others have already said, they can be tough to hit because of size. That said, if you hit somebody in the solar plexus, you're hitting a big nerve target. A chop to the side of the neck is hitting a nerve target. Another good one is the front of the shoulder, right on the rotator cuff. Easy to hit and can definitely cause a "dead arm". Another good target but harder to hit is the brachial plexus in the arm pit. A middle knuckle strike up into that target works very nicely. These are all fairly easy to hit. It's the little guys that take more time and skill to strike.

Great topic.


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## kidswarrior (Feb 13, 2007)

OK, here are my choices for a top 30 list of intermediate level pressure points as I alluded to in earlier post. jdinca also mentioned some of these and their value. My list is not meant to be scientific, viz., some of these technically may not be nerve centers at all, just places that hurt more than others when struck or pressured. Acid test if youre in doubt about one of these: knead/hit yourself (or have a friend do it) in these places, and see if it hurts (e.g., knead the philtrum with your second knuckles). If it doesn't hurt, dont use it. If so, youve added a tool. For me, thats enough to be called a pressure point.

I classify them as intermediate because theyre not that difficult to locate (dont need to pinpoint) and as Flying Crane said, you don't usually need 100% accuracy. I dont teach these analytically, i.e. from a list, or in any order (except that the first dozen or so, I emphasize to women's/elementary kids self-defense students). Instead, I teach them organically, as they come up in the course of a class. So, some may get more attention, some less. But somewhere around, say, green or brown belt, I would expect a student to know the value of these targets for striking, kneading, twisting, squeezing, ripping, scratching, biting, and as leverage for a takedown. *All can do severe damage. Some are very dangerous to the opponent, and can cause severe injury or death. If you havent used any of these before, please proceed with caution as you teach, and use them only in emergency situations* (and to the nay Sayers and the jaded, let me say up front that, yes, I have personally been to funerals where a routine fistfight turned deadly when one person accidentally hit a pressure point and got way more bang for his buck than either side bargained for; I have also seen the effect in the training hall, for example: an open tigers mouth/web hand actually delivered to the Adams appleby accident/carelessness; or, a backhand to the ear. Neither was anywhere near full power or speed, yet delivered significant pain and stopped the opponent dead).

They are listed here in no particular order, beyond the caveat above. BTW, Ive even given the list a name in case anyone wanted to use it. Better yet, please make suggestions and lets improve it.

*The Dirty Thirty*​ 

1. Groin
2. Shin (front)
3. Inside of thigh (kick, hit, pinch)
4. Inside of knee
5. Philtrum (just under nose)
6. Adams apple (can be fatal)
7. Eyes (can maim)
8. Carotid artery (about midway between side/front of neckcan cause stroke)
9. Inside of shin (especially on planted leg)
10. Side of neck
11. Feet
12. Ear (cuff/boxer slap)
13. Ankle
14. Clavicle (strike: knife hands work well; pressure/takedown: drive fingers down behind clavicle)
15. Temple
16. Base of skull
17. Lower abdomen (between belly button and pubic bone)
18. Outside of knee
19. Solar plexus
20. Brachial nerve (top, inside of forearm, about 6-8 inches above wrist)
21. Vastus externus (middle/back of thigh, about halfway around between side and back).
22. Floating ribs (especially sharp, glancing blows; or, can act as spring from direct blow)
23. Front of armpit
24. Point of chin
25. Jaw hinge (can seriously injure/do long-term damage)
26. Underside of upper arm (1/3 up between elbow and shoulder, or 1/3 down from shoulder)
27. Wrist (top/underside)
28. Small of back (can cause spinal damage, paralysis)
29. Back/hollow of knee
30. Coccyx (Tailbone: can seriously injure)
31. Achilles tendon
32. Upper back (between shoulder blades: can cause paralysis)

OK, so I couldnt cut it down to an even 30.  Nothing stuck out to me as not fitting for this level of training (through about brown belt, or maybe 2 ½-3 ½ years of training in non-belted arts).

(NOTE: the MT encyclopedia has an excellent reference to human anatomy, with great graphics, where these could be easily pictured).

Responses?


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## MJS (Feb 14, 2007)

kidswarrior said:


> Good topic, MJS. My opinion, in short, is that nerve centers are great to hit, squeeze, dig, etc., but I don't teach them as routine elements of self defense because of the precision required. And we know in the adrenaline-pumping, body-sweating, jerky-moving chaos which is the reality for most in the heat of battle, it's hard to be that precise.
> 
> But...as you said, a great plus to know them and if an opening presents itself, then go for it.
> 
> ...


 
Glad you like the topic!:ultracool   We're pretty much on the same page.  My instructor doesn't focus on them as in depth as some, but does have some knowledge of them from his Arnis background.  Just last week I was running through some techs. with him and managed to target one on the inside of his arm with my block.  Do I know which one it was?  Not a clue, but I do know that he commented that my block had something 'extra' packed in it.


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## MJS (Feb 14, 2007)

Flying Crane said:


> Hi Mike,
> 
> As I recently began studying with Mr. Sumner, I have defintely noticed that he has been discussing the appropriate nerve targets integrated into the SD techs. From day one, he has been pointing these out, and demonstrating them on me with sufficient authority to leave little doubt in my mind. While I have been aware of many of them from my prior training, I have a feeling they will be brought to a higher level of clarity thru my training with Mr. Sumner. I am very much looking forward to it. I'll share any hot tidbits that seem especially good.


 
Hey Mike! Yes, I do recall you saying that you began training again.  I'd certainly be interested in hearing anything else you'd like to share during training with Mr. Sumner! 



> As a side note, Mr. Sumner has expressed that we should keep in mind that much of what we do in kenpo can still be highly effective, even if we don't manage to "get" it 100%. This would be true, I believe, for the nerve strikes as well. If the nerve isn't hit properly, the trauma caused by the strike itself can still have a very strong effect. Hitting the nerve is extra insurance.


 
Agreed!


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## MJS (Feb 14, 2007)

14 Kempo said:


> Yes, I agree, good topic ... I, too, believe that pressure point attacks are too precise for a lot of people in a street war. In the beginning, soft targets seem to be more economical. On the other hand, as a person moves forward in thier martial arts training, they should become more and more aware of pressure points. Pressure points can be leveraged in many self-defense situations such as grabs and definately used to better arm and joint locks. Pressure points are also a great equalizer. Pressure point accentuate pain.
> It can be assumed, bullies or street thugs work on fear, they want to feel they can dominate. So, with that in mind, most attakers will be larger beings, rarely will a smaller person be the attacker, unless a weapon is involved. So, hitting soft targets, hitting and manipulating pressure points may be crucial to survival. Pressure points may also lessen the damage invoked upon another person, and, although I will do what it takes to survive, I would like to think a could control a situation without maming another ...


 
Yes, I agree with the grabs.  IMO, that is a situation where things may be a bit more stationary, so targetting them could be a bit easier.  Also like you said about the joint locks.  Nothing like adding in a little extra pain in addition to the lock!


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## MJS (Feb 14, 2007)

kidswarrior said:


> OK, here are my choices for a top 30 list of intermediate level pressure points as I alluded to in earlier post. jdinca also mentioned some of these and their value. My list is not meant to be scientific, viz., some of these technically may not be nerve centers at all, just places that hurt more than others when struck or pressured. Acid test if youre in doubt about one of these: knead/hit yourself (or have a friend do it) in these places, and see if it hurts (e.g., knead the philtrum with your second knuckles). If it doesn't hurt, dont use it. If so, youve added a tool. For me, thats enough to be called a pressure point.
> 
> I classify them as intermediate because theyre not that difficult to locate (dont need to pinpoint) and as Flying Crane said, you don't usually need 100% accuracy. I dont teach these analytically, i.e. from a list, or in any order (except that the first dozen or so, I emphasize to women's/elementary kids self-defense students). Instead, I teach them organically, as they come up in the course of a class. So, some may get more attention, some less. But somewhere around, say, green or brown belt, I would expect a student to know the value of these targets for striking, kneading, twisting, squeezing, ripping, scratching, biting, and as leverage for a takedown. *All can do severe damage. Some are very dangerous to the opponent, and can cause severe injury or death. If you havent used any of these before, please proceed with caution as you teach, and use them only in emergency situations* (and to the nay Sayers and the jaded, let me say up front that, yes, I have personally been to funerals where a routine fistfight turned deadly when one person accidentally hit a pressure point and got way more bang for his buck than either side bargained for; I have also seen the effect in the training hall, for example: an open tigers mouth/web hand actually delivered to the Adams appleby accident/carelessness; or, a backhand to the ear. Neither was anywhere near full power or speed, yet delivered significant pain and stopped the opponent dead).
> 
> ...


 
Great list! Thanks for posting!!:ultracool   Its really amazing, how many of these targets we hit everytime we run thru a technique.  I recall looking thru Ed Parkers book 4, which lists a number of targets, the best tool to strike them with and the effect/result that hitting them will have.  Good stuff!!


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## DavidCC (Feb 14, 2007)

Since my teacher started training under Jim Corn and Evan Pantazzi in Kyusho International, we have been adjusting the targeting in our techniques.  Small adjustments really...

in Ki they have progressive levels, starting with revivals but then:
arm points
head points
body points
leg points
points used in grappling
kyusho vs weapon attacks
(a couple more levels... not sure what they are)


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## Flying Crane (Feb 14, 2007)

MJS said:


> Hey Mike! Yes, I do recall you saying that you began training again. I'd certainly be interested in hearing anything else you'd like to share during training with Mr. Sumner!
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed!


 

Hey Mike,

I suspect you are familiar with Headlock, from Tracy's Orange Belt curriculum?  We worked that last night and I had the opportunity to relearn the tech.  Big eye opener.  Just from last night, my understanding of this tech is so much better than it had been before.

In the "A" version of the tech, with the headlock administered from the side.  Mr. Sumner commented on the double hammerfists, to the groin and kidneys simultaneously.  This not only compacts the force into the torso, but actually compacts a complete bodily system.  The kidneys are at the beginning of the urinary system, and the groin, of course, is at the end.  The fact that this compaction is on a bodily system, gives the double strike a greater potential for real damage, rather than just compressing a random body part between two hammerfists.

When peeling the bad guy off you, I had always just reached up to grab the hair and yank back and down, while pivoting to a bow and driving a palm heel under his chin.  Sure, it works, but Mr. Sumner had us do it by reaching around from behind all the way to the face, and laying a finger (doesn't really matter which one) under his nose.  You then use that as a nerve point to drive his head back and peel him off you.  The thing is, you need to lift your hand up so it is not resting on his cheek, just the finger under the nose, or you loose a lot of the effect.

But if he turns his head away and you can't get under his nose, you can drive a finger behind his ear, or under the line of his jawbone, or under his cheek bone.  I had been aware of the one behind the ear, and under the jawbone, but the cheek was one I was only dimly aware of, and I hadn't put it into the context of a tech like this one.

Years ago, I accidentally kicked a classmate in capoeira, in the cheek.  I must have hit that nerve, because I basically knocked her out.  She rolled away, and just lay there, and when she came to, she said she could hear everyone around her, but couldn't respond.  And she said that the teeth on the top of her mouth, on that side of her face, felt like they were on fire, very very painful.  I must have hit that cheek nerve that serves those teeth, and it had a tremendous effect.  I felt terrible, but learned something, but wasn't sure exactly how to duplicate that.  

I think in class last night, Mr. Sumner pointed out that same one, if you dig around under the cheek bone, it is really sensitive and you can drive someone off you with this.

So this is the kind of thing he is teaching, as this stuff is integrated right in the SD techs we do.  It's a real learning experience, I feel like I am learning so much that I missed the first time around.

Lovin' it!


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## kidswarrior (Feb 14, 2007)

Flying Crane said:


> When peeling the bad guy off you, I had always just reached up to grab the hair and yank back and down, while pivoting to a bow and driving a palm heel under his chin. Sure, it works, but Mr. Sumner had us do it by reaching around from behind all the way to the face, and laying a finger (doesn't really matter which one) under his nose. You then use that as a nerve point to drive his head back and peel him off you. The thing is, you need to lift your hand up so it is not resting on his cheek, just the finger under the nose, or you loose a lot of the effect.


 
I like this one too. Actually learned it in Kung Fu San Soo, and have found it works from behind opponent, from in front, etc. (and especially since so many guys are wearing very short hair these days). From in front, I've found the thumb sometimes feels more natural.



> But if he turns his head away and you can't get under his nose, you can drive a finger behind his ear, or under the line of his jawbone, or under his cheek bone. I had been aware of the one behind the ear, and under the jawbone...


 
Good ones! Another, similar move that takes less technique (which I usually have--less technique, that is  ), is to reach around the arm he's holding me with and over his shoulder (as I think you're describing here), and use knife hand to push into top of throat (and peel him backwards). In headlock escape, I teach students to stand on near foot while peeling, ensuring a takedown. 
This knifehand/swordhand/swordarm also works as a simple strike from any position. (OT: Carl Cestari has a series of DVDs based on this strike. Hard to find, tho).



> ...but the cheek was one I was only dimly aware of, and I hadn't put it into the context of a tech like this one.
> 
> Years ago, I accidentally kicked a classmate in capoeira, in the cheek. I must have hit that nerve, because I basically knocked her out. She rolled away, and just lay there, and when she came to, she said she could hear everyone around her, but couldn't respond. And she said that the teeth on the top of her mouth, on that side of her face, felt like they were on fire, very very painful. I must have hit that cheek nerve that serves those teeth, and it had a tremendous effect. I felt terrible, but learned something, but wasn't sure exactly how to duplicate that.
> 
> I think in class last night, Mr. Sumner pointed out that same one, if you dig around under the cheek bone, it is really sensitive and you can drive someone off you with this.


 
Wasn't aware of this one. Thanks for sharing its location and effectiveness. Now if I can only find it, and learn to use it....


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## Flying Crane (Feb 14, 2007)

kidswarrior said:


> Wasn't aware of this one. Thanks for sharing its location and effectiveness. Now if I can only find it, and learn to use it....


 

Well, after the Capoeira incident, I checked my old Anatomy text from college, and there is a nerve feeding the teeth and perhaps other parts of the face, and it comes out from behind the bone somewhere on the cheek.  It serves the teeth on the top of the mouth, so I believe I must have struck that one.  I don't remember the name of that nerve.

However, if you go to the outside corner of your eye, and follow straight down your cheek, over the cheekbone to the underside of the cheekbone, and dig your thumb up and under the bone, you will feel it can be quite sensitive.  I don't know if this is part of the same nerve I struck, but that is where Mr. Sumner was instructing us to drive in a finger to force back the bad guy.


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## kidswarrior (Feb 14, 2007)

Flying Crane said:


> Well, after the Capoeira incident, I checked my old Anatomy text from college, and there is a nerve feeding the teeth and perhaps other parts of the face, and it comes out from behind the bone somewhere on the cheek. It serves the teeth on the top of the mouth, so I believe I must have struck that one. I don't remember the name of that nerve.
> 
> However, if you go to the outside corner of your eye, and follow straight down your cheek, over the cheekbone to the underside of the cheekbone, and dig your thumb up and under the bone, you will feel it can be quite sensitive. I don't know if this is part of the same nerve I struck, but that is where Mr. Sumner was instructing us to drive in a finger to force back the bad guy.


 
Yep, found it. Thanks.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 14, 2007)

This thread had gotten my intellectual juices flowing.  I've often wondered what I might pick up, if I made a concentrated effort to understand the effects of nerve strikes.  Problem was, in the past it was always sort of knowledge in a vacuum and I wasn't sure how to apply it.

I think with my current training, I can augment it with a systematic study of the old college texts.  Instead of trying to study the nervous system as a whole, perhaps it makes more sense to consult the texts on a case-by-case basis, as it comes up in the context of my training.  As we work on a tech, explore the nerve attacks built in, I could reinforce the information by looking up those particular nerves in the books, see exactly where they go and what they do, etc., and hopefully solidify my understanding of the whole thing.

Thanks for this thread, Mike, good topic!


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## kidswarrior (Feb 14, 2007)

Flying Crane said:


> This thread had gotten my intellectual juices flowing. I've often wondered what I might pick up, if I made a concentrated effort to understand the effects of nerve strikes. Problem was, in the past it was always sort of knowledge in a vacuum and I wasn't sure how to apply it.
> 
> I think with my current training, I can augment it with a systematic study of the old college texts. Instead of trying to study the nervous system as a whole, perhaps it makes more sense to consult the texts on a case-by-case basis, as it comes up in the context of my training. As we work on a tech, explore the nerve attacks built in, I could reinforce the information by looking up those particular nerves in the books, see exactly where they go and what they do, etc., and hopefully solidify my understanding of the whole thing.
> 
> Thanks for this thread, Mike, good topic!


 
Now if we could just talk you into shaing all that applied research with the rest of us. :uhyeah:


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## kidswarrior (Feb 14, 2007)

MJS said:


> Great list! Thanks for posting!!:ultracool Its really amazing, how many of these targets we hit everytime we run thru a technique. I recall looking thru Ed Parkers book 4, which lists a number of targets, the best tool to strike them with and the effect/result that hitting them will have. Good stuff!!


 
Ok, guess it's time I bought that series. Since my training is Shaolin (influenced strongly by Kung Fu San Soo), and not Ed Parker's American Kenpo, never got around to it...till now. Thanks for the tip.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 14, 2007)

kidswarrior said:


> Now if we could just talk you into shaing all that applied research with the rest of us. :uhyeah:


 

i'll see what i can do...


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## kidswarrior (Feb 15, 2007)

MJS said:


> I came across this article by Mr. Sumner and felt that it was relevent to the discussion.
> 
> Mike


 
Looking back over this thread, see that I neglected to say something important. Printed out and have been underlining and rereading Mr. Sumner's article. Three things jump off the page: why the muscles fail with nerve strikes; why knockouts occur (as for example with the technique some call a combat slap); and the ability to apply sliding scale force without striking when dealing with over-the-line friends (or that drunk bro-in-law). Have had these thoughts, but really helped to see them articluated this clearly. Good link, Mike. :ultracool


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## Sigung86 (Feb 17, 2007)

Just as an after thought... If you can find a copy of the Ed Parker, Kenpo, there are charts in there that show locations, and list possible weapons to hit them with, and the possible outcomes.  And, interestingly, there are a lot more... Doc has a handle on that, but, believe me, it's much more intense than just getting to the location and hitting it.


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## Doc (Feb 18, 2007)

Sigung86 said:


> Just as an after thought... If you can find a copy of the Ed Parker, Kenpo, there are charts in there that show locations, and list possible weapons to hit them with, and the possible outcomes.  And, interestingly, there are a lot more... Doc has a handle on that, but, believe me, it's much more intense than just getting to the location and hitting it.



Big mouth!


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## Doc (Feb 18, 2007)

What Dan Farmer is speaking of is an xtension of a conversation and demo we had privately at a Texas lecture last year. What most seem to miss, is even extensive knowledge of the location of "pressure points" and "nerve cavities" is not enough. I have students who are acupuncturists who do not have the martial knowledge of application. They cannot always find the nerves as well. There is a reason for this that begins to bring to light it's complexity.

Most nerve cavity and pressure point charts are designed for a healing professional and are illustrative of a supine and gender neutral posture. The availability and accessability varies between male and female. However more importantly, nerve cavities are protected by various densities of fibrous and hard tissue, as well as anatomical individual body geometry. Therefore, the general locations are the same, but individual points are specific to the individual. Moreover, when the carriage is erect, in conjunctions with changes in body posture, this manisfests itself in cavities being "open" or accessable predicated in most cases on the relation of the many body parts to each other from jiiffy-second to jiffy-second. Therefore, without an intricate knowledge of the variables of posture mandates on human anatomy, cavity access is not simple. Of course, in some instances cavity protection can be overcome with extreme blunt force trauma, which is the preferred methodology of the unskilled and unknowledgeable, and is the most common in general. I've demonstrated this on many ocassions in lectures. "Poking" a person in one posture, than adjusting to another and poking again with a dramatically different response.


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## BlackCatBonz (Feb 18, 2007)

Doc said:


> What Dan Farmer is speaking of is an xtension of a conversation and demo we had privately at a Texas lecture last year. What most seem to miss, is even extensive knowledge of the location of "pressure points" and "nerve cavities" is not enough. I have students who are acupuncturists who do not have the martial knowledge of application. They cannot always find the nerves as well. There is a reason for this that begins to bring to light it's complexity.
> 
> Most nerve cavity and pressure point charts are designed for a healing professional and are illustrative of a supine and gender neutral posture. The availability and accessability varies between male and female. *However more importantly, nerve cavities are protected by various densities of fibrous and hard tissue, as well as anatomical individual body geometry*. Therefore, the general locations are the same, but individual points are specific to the individual. *Moreover, when the carriage is erect, in conjunctions with changes in body posture, this manisfests itself in cavities being "open" or accessable predicated in most cases on the relation of the many body parts to each other from jiiffy-second to jiffy-second*. Therefore, without an intricate knowledge of the variables of posture mandates on human anatomy, cavity access is not simple. Of course, in some instances cavity protection can be overcome with extreme blunt force trauma, which is the preferred methodology of the unskilled and unknowledgeable, and is the most common in general. I've demonstrated this on many ocassions in lectures. "*Poking" a person in one posture, than adjusting to another and poking again with a dramatically different response*.


 
Doc, you bring up some great points.....as usual. 
During my studies in shiatsu school the importance of learning proper body posture, both as therapist and patient, was paramount to a successful treatment session.
Me, being the exploratory individual I am, would always try and translate my restorative studies to martial studies. Lo and behold, I was starting to realise why certain strikes to certain areas were not working.......improper anatomical positioning.
As you state in your post, when the body is erect, the musculo-skeletal structure is "engaged" and not-receptive (I don't know how else to define it), rather than "disengaged" and receptive, as it would be in the supine, prone, or laterally recumbant treatment position.
There are ways to trick the body into doing certain things whilst treating someone, why couldn't the same thing work during martial application?
I also started to see that not every single "pressure point" "strike" had to be felt to work.

Paying attention to uke's body as they go through the motions of trying to beat you up can reveal a lot of receptive positions.......which is only the tip of the iceberg.


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## kidswarrior (Feb 19, 2007)

Doc said:


> What most seem to miss, is even extensive knowledge of the location of "pressure points" and "nerve cavities" is not enough.... There is a reason for this that begins to bring to light it's complexity....The general locations are the same, but individual points are specific to the individual. Moreover, when the carriage is erect, in conjunctions with changes in body posture, this manisfests itself in cavities being "open" or accessable predicated in most cases on the relation of the many body parts to each other from jiiffy-second to jiffy-second.
> 
> Therefore, without an intricate knowledge of the variables of posture mandates on human anatomy, cavity access is not simple.


 
This explains a lot in terms of the hit and miss success of my MA pressure point practice. (Why I sometimes have to 'dig around' a second or two to get the anticipated reaction).



> Of course, in some instances cavity protection can be overcome with extreme blunt force trauma, which is the preferred methodology of the unskilled and unknowledgeable, and is the most common in general.


 
Well, it's obvious to me now _that_ I'm not and _why_ I'm not as skilled and knowledgable as I thought, so I guess it's extreme blunt force trauma for me, at least for a few more years.  

Then again, if I read Mr. Sumner correctly and recall Flying Crane's comments, Mr. S seemed to be hinting that close counted _somewhat_. So maybe all is not lost in almost 15 years of training. :uhyeah: 

Doc, haven't met you, but you helped me understand a key element here. Thanks! ~kidswarrior


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## Doc (Feb 19, 2007)

kidswarrior said:


> This explains a lot in terms of the hit and miss success of my MA pressure point practice. (Why I sometimes have to 'dig around' a second or two to get the anticipated reaction).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No! Thank YOU sir.


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## Doc (Feb 19, 2007)

BlackCatBonz said:


> Doc, you bring up some great points.....as usual.
> During my studies in shiatsu school the importance of learning proper body posture, both as therapist and patient, was paramount to a successful treatment session.
> Me, being the exploratory individual I am, would always try and translate my restorative studies to martial studies. Lo and behold, I was starting to realise why certain strikes to certain areas were not working.......improper anatomical positioning.
> As you state in your post, when the body is erect, the musculo-skeletal structure is "engaged" and not-receptive (I don't know how else to define it), rather than "disengaged" and receptive, as it would be in the supine, prone, or laterally recumbant treatment position.
> ...


That's correct sir. Your background and obvious knowledge is a good place to be. Just remember, in activations, posture is everything. You are also quite correct in your assessment that, it doesn't have to be felt, to get the desired effect. 

Now consider opening cavities without contact, prior to striking. One methodology is to force the body to re-assign the muscular/skeletal structure to a different task, by nudging the posture, or forcing the computer (brain) by accessing the autonomic nervous system to use all its RAM momentarily elsewhere.


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## Seabrook (Feb 19, 2007)

Here is a video I came across. 

http://www.combatpressurepoints.com...batpressurepointsprofessorstevestewart/1.html


Thoughts?


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com
www.jamieseabrook.blogspot.com


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## Bode (Feb 19, 2007)

Seabrook said:


> Here is a video I came across.
> 
> 
> Thoughts?



Thoughts... hmm, every time I see that video, the part where he knocks the guy out without touching him, makes me laugh. There is nothing "combat" about having a highly influenced young student fall to the floor. I wish he hadn't done that because anything else that appears good in the video immediatly becomes suspect.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Feb 19, 2007)

Seabrook said:


> Here is a video I came across.
> 
> http://www.combatpressurepoints.com...batpressurepointsprofessorstevestewart/1.html
> 
> ...


 
I'm lookin' for the magic wand and fairy dust..


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## Matt (Feb 19, 2007)

Seabrook said:


> Here is a video I came across.
> 
> http://www.combatpressurepoints.com...batpressurepointsprofessorstevestewart/1.html
> 
> ...




I feel dumber for having watched that. Apparently 'Mass Attack' means you scamper about a Mass of people standing still and Attack them. Then when the last person approaches you, you point at them. If that doesn't work, you pretend to leave and slap them in the neck. 

Ugh. 

Matt


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## Doc (Feb 19, 2007)

Seabrook said:


> Here is a video I came across.
> 
> http://www.combatpressurepoints.com...batpressurepointsprofessorstevestewart/1.html
> 
> ...


Once upon a time ......

Steve Stewart. The guy that at one point claimed to know Sub Level 4, 5, and 6 Kenpo.


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## Dave_T_L_W (Feb 19, 2007)

Doc said:


> Once upon a time ......
> 
> Steve Stewart. The guy that at one point claimed to know Sub Level 4, 5, and 6 Kenpo.


 
Doc, 

Forgive me if im wrong but would sub level 5 not involve being inside your target and sub level 6 involve sumhow being inside someone more (perhaps so inside them you didnt have to touch them to hurt them, teleconisis style, ha)

Respectfully Dave


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## kenposikh (Feb 19, 2007)

Doc said:


> That's correct sir. Your background and obvious knowledge is a good place to be. Just remember, in activations, posture is everything. You are also quite correct in your assessment that, it doesn't have to be felt, to get the desired effect.
> 
> Now consider opening cavities without contact, prior to striking. One methodology is to force the body to re-assign the muscular/skeletal structure to a different task, by nudging the posture, or forcing the computer (brain) by accessing the autonomic nervous system to use all its RAM momentarily elsewhere.


 

Hi Doc,

Very interesting indeed Was working on some muscle reassignment methodologies over the weekend with my instructor. Very interesting indeed 

Amrik


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## kenposikh (Feb 19, 2007)

Seabrook said:


> Here is a video I came across.
> 
> http://www.combatpressurepoints.com...batpressurepointsprofessorstevestewart/1.html
> 
> ...


 
My one over riding thought is poor students


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## Doc (Feb 20, 2007)

Dave_T_L_W said:


> Doc,
> 
> Forgive me if im wrong but would sub level 5 not involve being inside your target and sub level 6 involve sumhow being inside someone more (perhaps so inside them you didnt have to touch them to hurt them, teleconisis style, ha)
> 
> Respectfully Dave



Sounds like sex to me.


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## Carol (Feb 20, 2007)

Dave_T_L_W said:


> Doc,
> 
> Forgive me if im wrong but would sub level 5 not involve being inside your target and sub level 6 involve sumhow being inside someone more (perhaps so inside them you didnt have to touch them to hurt them, teleconisis style, ha)
> 
> Respectfully Dave





Doc said:


> Sounds like sex to me.



:roflmao: 

:lfao:


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## Brother John (Feb 20, 2007)

MJS said:


> I thought that we could discuss the use of pressure point strikes in Kenpo. I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on it. Is this something that you focus on when doing a technique? The pros/cons of it?
> 
> I came across this article by Mr. Sumner and felt that it was relevent to the discussion.
> 
> ...


Excellent topic Mike.
Yes, I do pay attention to such things. I have taken lessons in Kyushojitsu for over a year and a half now....which isn't a martial art, but rather a body of knowledge and methods of activating Kyusho, or pressure points.

If I wasn't already pretty much half a foot out the door to get to work I'd type a LOT more.
But the short of it...Yes, I find the use of pressure points to be VERY helpful! The added effect that you can get, the added result that you can achieve with little effort is pretty increadible once you learn how to do it.

...I'll try to remember to get on and add more later.

Your Brother
John


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## kidswarrior (Feb 20, 2007)

Brother John said:


> Excellent topic Mike.
> Yes, I do pay attention to such things.
> 
> ...I'll try to remember to get on and add more later.
> ...


 
Yes, please do share some more when you get a chance.


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## Seabrook (Feb 22, 2007)

In my opinion, I think that no-touch knockouts should be labelled "hypnosis 101" or better yet "fear 101".


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## DavidCC (Feb 22, 2007)

Seabrook said:


> In my opinion, I think that no-touch knockouts should be labelled "hypnosis 101" or better yet "fear 101".


 

:lool:   
Now that's one brave stand you made there. I bet it took a lot of guts to post such a radical opinion


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## IWishToLearn (Feb 22, 2007)

Doc said:


> Sounds like sex to me.


LMAO!


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## kidswarrior (Feb 25, 2007)

Sigung86 said:


> Just as an after thought... If you can find a copy of the Ed Parker, Kenpo, there are charts in there that show locations, and list possible weapons to hit them with, and the possible outcomes. And, interestingly, there are a lot more... Doc has a handle on that, but, believe me, it's much more intense than just getting to the location and hitting it.


 
Just got Vol 4 of _Infinite Insights _in the mail yesterday, and you were right. Good stuff. Thought I knew quite a bit about pressure points. Hah! Thanks again for the tip. :wink2:


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## MJS (Feb 26, 2007)

Brother John said:


> Excellent topic Mike.
> Yes, I do pay attention to such things. I have taken lessons in Kyushojitsu for over a year and a half now....which isn't a martial art, but rather a body of knowledge and methods of activating Kyusho, or pressure points.
> 
> If I wasn't already pretty much half a foot out the door to get to work I'd type a LOT more.
> ...


 
John,

I'm interested in hearing more on this from your viewpoint.  Are these types of strikes worked on in the AKKI?

Mike


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## Brother John (Feb 26, 2007)

MJS said:


> John,
> 
> I'm interested in hearing more on this from your viewpoint.  Are these types of strikes worked on in the AKKI?
> 
> Mike


Yes and no.
It's not an official bit of AKKI curriculum really. But there was a video of Mr. Mills DROPPING someone, knocking them out with a finger-whip. I know the person he knocked out and I know the pressure point he struck. I don't envy the man the headache he must have had upon revival. sheesh....

Kenpo, whether AKKI or otherwise, does deliver strikes to locations that are VERY useful in terms of pressure points!!! Take the EPAK version of 5 Swords!!! Pretty much each and every strike!! Seriously. Check this site and look into the charts (VERY VERY handy resource by the way) www.acuxo.com
then think of the strikes in 5 swords
or
thundering hammers.....

or just pick a tech and check it out!
You'd be amazed...
Sometimes there needs to be a change in the exact trajectory or method of execution in order to opimize the effect on the kyusho point, but really.... in many cases we're already going to those zones!
*
also: Just a side note. 
I have the UTMOST respect for Mr. Mills, my instructors and the AKKI; still very fond of them all, but I'm no longer a member of the AKKI. Still doing Kenpo, still train in what I've been taught, but my path is no longer w/in the AKKI organization....I've gone on from there. Studying other things and such.
just an fyi....becuase I don't want people to think that what I say is "AKKI-doctrine" or anything.
it's just little old Bro. John now....*

*
Your Brother
John
*


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## MJS (Feb 27, 2007)

Brother John said:


> Yes and no.
> It's not an official bit of AKKI curriculum really. But there was a video of Mr. Mills DROPPING someone, knocking them out with a finger-whip. I know the person he knocked out and I know the pressure point he struck. I don't envy the man the headache he must have had upon revival. sheesh....
> 
> Kenpo, whether AKKI or otherwise, does deliver strikes to locations that are VERY useful in terms of pressure points!!! Take the EPAK version of 5 Swords!!! Pretty much each and every strike!! Seriously. Check this site and look into the charts (VERY VERY handy resource by the way) www.acuxo.com
> ...


 
Thanks for that!!  That link was very interesting and I plan on taking a more in-depth look at it.  Looking at the little bit that I did, I can see what you mean by looking at the chart and then looking at a technique!  Good stuff!:ultracool 

Mike


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## DavidCC (Feb 27, 2007)

I agree, Bro. John, it is amazing how kempo (and kenpo) combos seem to gravitate towards what we call "kyusho points".  My teacher is a KI Instructor, and we've found most of our techniques require only minor modificaiton to take advantage of various Kyusho "techniques".

It's a really fun area for experimentation!

but out of all the people I have met or read about, the pinnacle of nerve striking/manipulation within Kenpo (or kempo) is Dr. Chapel.  I probably shouldn't even qualify that to be within Kenpo!  The consideration of posture of the attacker and the changes it makes in the availability of various points, added tremendous depth to the KI work we were already doing.  The consistency of application of kyusho techniques is greatly improved when you pay attention to the posture of the attacker.


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## BigKiai (Mar 1, 2007)

kidswarrior said:


> OK, here are my choices for a top 30 list of intermediate level pressure points as I alluded to in earlier post. jdinca also mentioned some of these and their value. My list is not meant to be scientific, viz., some of these technically may not be nerve centers at all, just places that hurt more than others when struck or pressured. Acid test if youre in doubt about one of these: knead/hit yourself (or have a friend do it) in these places, and see if it hurts (e.g., knead the philtrum with your second knuckles). If it doesn't hurt, dont use it. If so, youve added a tool. For me, thats enough to be called a pressure point.
> 
> I classify them as intermediate because theyre not that difficult to locate (dont need to pinpoint) and as Flying Crane said, you don't usually need 100% accuracy. I dont teach these analytically, i.e. from a list, or in any order (except that the first dozen or so, I emphasize to women's/elementary kids self-defense students). Instead, I teach them organically, as they come up in the course of a class. So, some may get more attention, some less. But somewhere around, say, green or brown belt, I would expect a student to know the value of these targets for striking, kneading, twisting, squeezing, ripping, scratching, biting, and as leverage for a takedown. *All can do severe damage. Some are very dangerous to the opponent, and can cause severe injury or death. If you havent used any of these before, please proceed with caution as you teach, and use them only in emergency situations* (and to the nay Sayers and the jaded, let me say up front that, yes, I have personally been to funerals where a routine fistfight turned deadly when one person accidentally hit a pressure point and got way more bang for his buck than either side bargained for; I have also seen the effect in the training hall, for example: an open tigers mouth/web hand actually delivered to the Adams appleby accident/carelessness; or, a backhand to the ear. Neither was anywhere near full power or speed, yet delivered significant pain and stopped the opponent dead).
> 
> ...


 
That's a great list - thanks for sharing. It seems only practice and repetition help me in developing more accuracy when trying to hit the pressure points.


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## kidswarrior (Mar 2, 2007)

BigKiai said:


> That's a great list - thanks for sharing. It seems only practice and repetition help me in developing more accuracy when trying to hit the pressure points.


 
Thanks, Big Kiai. :ultracool You make a good point. Wasn't the concept attributed to Confucius: The harder I work and the more I learn, the more good luck I have? I'll never be a pressure point expert, but maybe more practice and repetition can make me a decent pp user.


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## kidswarrior (Mar 6, 2007)

By coincidence, just came across this in reading Kane and Wilder's _The Way of Kata_: "Nerve strikes are 'extra credit'." Haven't gotten to the actual chapter where they address this, but I find it an interesting idea. Doesn't this kinda go back to the original post by MJS on how important are nerve strikes to kenpo?, and are they hit and miss, or something we practice?


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