# But could you use it as a weapon?



## shesulsa (May 13, 2007)

Spinning off from the "what good is that knife in your purse" thread, and from another perspective ....  We all know you can make just about anything work as a weapon if you use it right (caveat ... I did say "just about" - let's not get ridiculous) or combine it with something else.  So ....

If you had to make use of something as a weapon suddenly, say, in a self-defense situation, would you know what to look for?  What would you choose?

If you *did* have the time to dig into your purse for something, what would you pull out and how would you use it?  Lumberyard?  Grocery store? Bank?


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## Blotan Hunka (May 13, 2007)

A pen can be a great wepon.


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## Kacey (May 13, 2007)

Keys - which I usually have out of my purse before I leave a store, both because I hate fumbling for them, and just in case I need them.  I tend to carry my keys with one key sticking out between my forefinger and middle finger, so I could easily make a fist and hit with the key.  And I always have them with me.  If I have time to adjust anything, I would have keys sticking out between every pair of fingers... and I would probably use my purse as a weapon too; both as a distraction and to hit the attacker in the face.


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## Darth F.Takeda (May 13, 2007)

Commonly found  or carried-
Pens,pencils, glass bottles, chairs, coatrack, a coat,car keys,a can  of any aerosal substence( I once shot a  guy  with my  astham inhailor in the eye before kicking him) books(use   the edge, it hurtsand can  break   bones), unbrella, broomstick.

In the woods-
Rocks, fallen tree branches, dirt, stcks,  flint knife.

On a Construction sight-

Everything!Constructionsight fights can get real ugly, Hammers ( Kills  more than guns, every year.)screwdrivers,  carpenters knife, Drywall  saw,  Knife, buckets, hard hat, Boots on your feet.

Weapons are everywhere, having a combative outlook helps with the rapid  identification  and deployment.

Now that I'ma Dad, I see danger everywhere  as well


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## Rich Parsons (May 13, 2007)

Blotan Hunka said:


> A pen can be a great wepon.



I carry pens all the time for work. Also it is nice to have a couple when out and everyone has to pay their bill on a card. Or if both you and her are exchanging numbers, both can write at the same time. 

What this means I could have one for each hand. Wow what a novel idea. 

Weapons of opportunity I have used myself in a life long ago and far away:
Tuna Fish Can (* My favorite *)
cleaning supplies (* splashed or thrown *)
pens
butter knife in a restaurant
bottle
chair
tire iron
Umbrella

Does the door frame and or wall count as well?  

Waepons of opportunity used in agression towards me:
tire irons
baseball bats
golf clubs
2x4 
2x6
cars/trucks
chairs

As to lumber yard one could go for the odd cuts and find a good sized 2x4.
In a grocery store, one could use a can or something with a liquid, spray it into eyes, or bee spray for long distance.
In a bank most pens are chained, so you have limited distance to use them and or to use the chain. One could also use a chair for those waiting. (* Note: all banks have lots of cameras and everything you do will be caught on tape. *)


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## Kreth (May 14, 2007)

Rich Parsons said:


> Does the door frame and or wall count as well?


So I'm not the only one to run into those clumsy guys in bars that seem to run into everything as you're escorting them outside?


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## MA-Caver (May 14, 2007)

One of the best improvised weaponry I've learned about was at a Wing Chun seminar (highlighted by Yip Sing) and that was the kubotan. On how a mini-mag light was very useful in subduing a person (trying to or actually) grabbing you. On how basically anything harder than a person's wrist could be used so long as the technique could be properly applied, even a pen or a folding knife (if long enough-- folded) could be used. Very effective to say the least. 

Other weapons are just whatever is at hand. Knowing *where* to hit with them is something else of course


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## Steel Tiger (May 14, 2007)

Don't forget your meat byproducts.  If you're in a deli a good sized salami can be quite effective.  Mind you, you'll probably have to grab another one after a couple or three good wacks.


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## tellner (May 14, 2007)

Anything from a fluffy teddy bear to a sock and a bar of soap. The Christians' Book says "To the pure all things are pure." My Book says "To the bloody minded anything is a weapon."  Within arm's reach right now let me see what I could use...

The computer. My wife's isoflex hand exerciser. Pens. A coffee cup. Staples, a stock. A rolled up paperback book. The aforementioned stuffed animal. A chair. A soapstone statue. A credit card. My keys, which are on a two foot chain. A prayer rug. A box of business cards. Rocks. Dissection kit....

Yep. All of those.


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## Andrew Green (May 14, 2007)

shesulsa said:


> If you had to make use of something as a weapon suddenly, say, in a self-defense situation, would you know what to look for?  What would you choose?



Big and solid, and / or sharp.

Barring that anything that can be thrown into someones face can be useful.



> Lumberyard?



Chainsaw.  "Groovy"


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## FearlessFreep (May 14, 2007)

_Chainsaw. "Groovy"_

*This*..is my BOOM stick!!!


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## MaartenSFS (May 14, 2007)

I needn't look for a weapon because I always carry a 57cm long (22.5cm Collapsed) telescopic steel baton, which I have developed "quick draw" techniques for and dubbed "Bagunshu" (See Swords forum)

This is great because it is highly surprising, intimidating, long enough to fend off knives, and it lets me exercise self-control (if I choose to). Once drawn there are secondary to finish of the attacker or continue to any other attackers. It is quite important to get a baton of the right length in proportion to one's own arms. The longest standard batons that you can buy without customisation are 77cm long (Fully extended) and feel like a sword. There are also many ways that you can secure them to your body with a "sheath", so you can experiment with different ways to draw. I prefer to carry mine in my pocket, but for the 77cm long it would be too big (Unless you are Eminem with pockets deep enough to hide Osama Bin Laden). I'll write up a nicer article with illustrations one of these days.

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But let's say that for some odd reason I wasn't carrying it with me in a "situation", what would I use... ?

I have to agree on the pens thing. It's quite easy to, in the reverse grip, stab out eyes or puncture "****" along the neck with a pen. I have made cardboard targets to test this. It works great. Dog leashes also work great (Don't ask how I know).

Here, in China, I have used a closed parasol (Quite a nice rice paper one, actually, but still effective) and a closed paper/wooden fan (Have been looking for a steel war fan forever (One where the digits are also knives would be better?), but can't find it. That can also be rapidly deployed.

Chopsticks, TI83+ (And up) calculators, Al Gore documentary, trouser belts, hand bags, olde French bread, your ex-boy/girlfriend, nail clippers, wet towels, cross (to stab), electrical cables with plugs attached, my wife's socks, foreign language, Spice Girls CD, your STDs (Though this won't help you when you need it, it would be NASTY REVENGE!), boomerang (Don't throw it!!!), propaganda, Jehova's Witness' pamphlets, medical malpractise, my Daofu ("Dogi") after training, thumb tacs, parts of fences (preferably pointy), prickly bushes, pot of boiling water, silverware, plates, venomous snakes, poison toads, unusually large cat nip in the pressence of a tiger (Or other vicious feline), (If in water) chum, fire extinguisher, blow torch, fishing rod (Preferably for sharks), posters of teen idols, (When in the pressence of people over 25?) hip-hop, your vehicle, a "friend" with plague-like symptoms (Or ebola), your canine friend, Asian pop music, overly long list of "weapons", et cetera.


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## MJS (May 14, 2007)

shesulsa said:


> Spinning off from the "what good is that knife in your purse" thread, and from another perspective .... We all know you can make just about anything work as a weapon if you use it right (caveat ... I did say "just about" - let's not get ridiculous) or combine it with something else. So ....
> 
> If you had to make use of something as a weapon suddenly, say, in a self-defense situation, would you know what to look for? What would you choose?
> 
> If you *did* have the time to dig into your purse for something, what would you pull out and how would you use it? Lumberyard? Grocery store? Bank?


 
I always have my keys in hand when approaching my car, so that would be my first option.  I wear a belt, so if need be, that can be used as a weapon.  

Dirt, rocks, car antenna are all objects that can be used.  

None of the objects that I mentioned are fight stoppers on the level of a gun per se, but I'm not intending them to be.  If it provides me with a slight advantage to leave or to do follow up strikes, whatever I use has served its purpose. 

Mike


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## Grenadier (May 14, 2007)

MaartenSFS said:


> I needn't look for a weapon because I always carry a 57cm long (22.5cm Collapsed) telescopic steel baton, which I have developed "quick draw" techniques for and dubbed "Bagunshu" (See Swords forum)


 
Interesting concept, and I have no doubts that a telescoping baton can be a great defensive melee weapon.  

Unfortunately, here in the USA, most states highly restrict telescoping batons, and the penalties of carrying one unlawfully can be rather dire, indeed.  

This is why folding lockback knives are generally preferred, since almost every state allows you to carry such a knife as long as you don't exceed some maximum blade length in some places (3" in South Carolina, for example, no limits in Alabama, etc).


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## shesulsa (May 14, 2007)

Well, we all know there are many things that can be used, but would you know how to deploy and would you be less likely to hurt someone with an improvised weapon than a real one?


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## Drac (May 14, 2007)

Blotan Hunka said:


> A pen can be a great wepon.


 


Kacey said:


> Keys - which I usually have out of my purse before


 
Ahh the old reliable standby weapons..I keep my car keys and house keys on seperate rings...One has a kubotan attached, the other a ProTek Key..


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## jks9199 (May 14, 2007)

shesulsa said:


> Well, we all know there are many things that can be used, but would you know how to deploy and would you be less likely to hurt someone with an improvised weapon than a real one?


Which nicely lets me segue onto a point about using a belt as a weapon...

For most men -- probably pretty impractical.  They don't tend to be able to be taken off quickly enough to deploy as a practical weapon.  Especially if you hang stuff like cell phones, multi-tools, and the like off of them.  (Of course, if you hang a lawfully carried gun off it, the whole discussion becomes moot!)  When your assailant sees you fiddling with your belt... he's just gonna hit you!  

And even if they can be...  How essential is your belt to keeping your pants up?  I know have at least one story about one of these idiot kids with the pants that are 8 sizes too big and barely hang off their backside trying to run...  Kinda hard to defend yourself when your pants are around your knees...

I think many women are more likely to be able to make practical use of a belt than a man, because their belts are often more "ornamental" than structural, and can be removed more rapidly.

As to using a variety of improvised weapons -- since weapons in my system are used along the "extension of the hand" concept, with the same body dynamics and underlying principles as the empty hand, yep.  I can use almost anything as a weapon.  Some things are more distractions than real weapons, like a handkerchief (yeah, in theory you can snap one like a towel... but it's weak in reality!).  Others, like those nifty "book holders" that are really double ended saps...  They're dangerous!


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## jdinca (May 14, 2007)

I remember a drill we did when I was an instructor trainee. Everybody had one minute to find something in the school they could use as a weapon, except a weapon (imagine 30 people scrambling to find SOMETHING). Once they picked something, they had two minutes to put together a SD technique with it. Some very creative results.


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## bushidomartialarts (May 14, 2007)

best improvised weapon ever:  steaming hot cuppa joe right in the face.  you're not necessarily always carrying, but it's pretty easy to procure if you're concerned about the walk to your car...


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## searcher (May 14, 2007)

Anything I can pick up and swing or throw.


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## tellner (May 14, 2007)

It's always better to use the right tool for the job. The improvised ones are just that, improvised field expedients, second or third best. Their saving grace is that they are there at hand when you need them. Of course a gun or a sword or a spear would be better. These are simply somewhat better than nothing. And they beat the hell out of screaming for help. 

The exceptions are the tools you use every day. If you are a carpenter you already have perfect body mechanics with that roofing hammer. A cook? Nobody has **** to teach you about how to use a knife. 

To answer your other question, I've trained with a lot of weapons including some pretty unconvenctional ones. I'm reasonably confident that I could make the expedient ones work pretty well. But a lot of people haven't and are just kind of hoping that it would magically work out. Take the classic keys between the fingers. Have any of the people who talk about that tried it on something approximating a real target? How badly torn up were their hand afterwards. Could any of them hit with any real impact and have the keys stay more or less straight? Not one in a thousand who says he would rely on that has actually practiced it even once?


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## Carol (May 14, 2007)

tellner said:


> Take the classic keys between the fingers. Have any of the people who talk about that tried it on something approximating a real target? How badly torn up were their hand afterwards. Could any of them hit with any real impact and have the keys stay more or less straight? Not one in a thousand who says he would rely on that has actually practiced it even once?



That's actually one of the reasons why I don't prefer to count on my keys as weapons. 

The other reason is...I'd rather give up the entire contents of my purse than give up my keys (I don't carry my keys in my purse unless I have to).  Keys can offer me a chance to get to safety.  Not having keys can leave me stranded or locked out....both very bad situations for personal safety.


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## jdinca (May 14, 2007)

tellner said:


> It's always better to use the right tool for the job. The improvised ones are just that, improvised field expedients, second or third best. Their saving grace is that they are there at hand when you need them. Of course a gun or a sword or a spear would be better. These are simply somewhat better than nothing. And they beat the hell out of screaming for help.
> 
> The exceptions are the tools you use every day. If you are a carpenter you already have perfect body mechanics with that roofing hammer. A cook? Nobody has **** to teach you about how to use a knife.
> 
> To answer your other question, I've trained with a lot of weapons including some pretty unconvenctional ones. I'm reasonably confident that I could make the expedient ones work pretty well. But a lot of people haven't and are just kind of hoping that it would magically work out. Take the classic keys between the fingers. Have any of the people who talk about that tried it on something approximating a real target? How badly torn up were their hand afterwards. Could any of them hit with any real impact and have the keys stay more or less straight? Not one in a thousand who says he would rely on that has actually practiced it even once?


 
All quite true. I think what's important is that a person doesn't rely on these improvised weapons for true self defense but more as an adjunct and as a deterrent. For the average person, a set of keys may, or may not help. But for a martial artist to use keys to me means having a way to distract your attacker so that you can put something else you know into use. Rakes the keys across the face and while the attacker is focusing on you attacking his face with keys, make his knee bend the wrong way. 

It's a mindset thing.


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## Kacey (May 14, 2007)

tellner said:


> Take the classic keys between the fingers. Have any of the people who talk about that tried it on something approximating a real target? How badly torn up were their hand afterwards. Could any of them hit with any real impact and have the keys stay more or less straight? Not one in a thousand who says he would rely on that has actually practiced it even once?



I have... bearing in mind that my keys have plastic covers on the non-key end (they all look alike) and the target I was using was ripped up - and I wasn't.  Also, I would be much more likely to slash with keys than punch, although I would do that too, if need be.


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## thardey (May 14, 2007)

tellner said:


> Anything from a fluffy teddy bear to a sock and a bar of soap. The Christians' Book says "To the pure all things are pure." My Book says "To the bloody minded anything is a weapon."  Within arm's reach right now let me see what I could use...



We also have a saying: "When your only tool is a hammer, all of your problems begin to look like nails."



> The computer. My wife's isoflex hand exerciser. Pens. A coffee cup. Staples, a stock. A rolled up paperback book. The aforementioned stuffed animal. A chair. A soapstone statue. A credit card. My keys, which are on a two foot chain. A prayer rug. A box of business cards. Rocks. Dissection kit....
> 
> Yep. All of those.


What? Is everything cordless? A nice bit of telephone/mouse/power chord, could be verrry handy in a grappling situation as a garrotte.

Do sign posts, trees, sidewalks, or street traffic count as weapons if you bounce somebody off of them?


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## Blotan Hunka (May 14, 2007)

Telephone handsets (the old fashioned ones) were great weapons. Ask any cop who ever went to a domestic call. My uncle told me a story about a guy who got tuned up pretty good with one once.


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## Rich Parsons (May 14, 2007)

shesulsa said:


> Well, we all know there are many things that can be used, but would you know how to deploy and would you be less likely to hurt someone with an improvised weapon than a real one?



Depends.

I train with impact weapons all the time, and I change the mass and size, so picking up something for me and using it randomly is not a big deal. But the issue is I have exposure to these and think about them and practice with them.

Right now if I was carrying a gun a knife or a pen, I probably would opt for the Pen, unless there were weapons that warrented other weapons I was carrying. But even then my experience with deploying a firearm under stress is not there. (* Yes I admit my weak points *) It would not be my first thought. Hence why I am training with one, to make sure it is an equal thopught option depending upon the situation.


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## MaartenSFS (May 14, 2007)

shesulsa said:


> Well, we all know there are many things that can be used, but would you know how to deploy and would you be less likely to hurt someone with an improvised weapon than a real one?


 
That depends on how you train. For my Bagunshu system I have developed an extensive variety of training methods. My favourite is to go up to the roof and hand up between 1 and 3kg bags (Made from blue jeans = STRONG) with hard little beans inside and then push them so that they start moving and try to "kill" the nearest one on the draw, before "finishing off" the rest. I like to hang them up at different levels. I also sometimes ask my wife to hang them up or get them moving in different ways with my eyes closed and then when she says go just attack everything I see. You can try this training method in many different ways. For example, you ask a friend to put random "weapons" in different places and then start the bags swinging. When you open your eyes you must first collect a weapon, afterwhich proceeding with the attack. This training method is excellent.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=SqgWxnGyW3w&search=kung fu training

Also see this for a more spontaneous training method (Though it isn't necessary to be so vocal about it).


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## MaartenSFS (May 14, 2007)

Grenadier said:


> Interesting concept, and I have no doubts that a telescoping baton can be a great defensive melee weapon.
> 
> Unfortunately, here in the USA, most states highly restrict telescoping batons, and the penalties of carrying one unlawfully can be rather dire, indeed.
> 
> This is why folding lockback knives are generally preferred, since almost every state allows you to carry such a knife as long as you don't exceed some maximum blade length in some places (3" in South Carolina, for example, no limits in Alabama, etc).


 
Despite what the "LAW" says, I can relate to you something that my Qinna teacher said (He also carries a small baton): "The law favours criminals. Law-abiding citisens are at a disadvantage. When they [Criminals] stop carrying, so will I."

Anyways, how will people spot a well-conceiled baton? When mine is collapsed it is only 22.5cm long. It can easily fit into my pocket. For me the question isn't about carrying, it is about my self-control on when and where to draw it. In some situations just drawing the baton (In the normal non-quick draw fashion) is enough to intimidate any would-be attackers. Seeing a long piece of shiny steel emerge from someone's trousers is not exacty encouraging to an attacker. Compare that to a pen. If they have a knife, you're ****ed.


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## KenpoTex (May 15, 2007)

Thankfully, because of my location and CCW, I can carry pretty much anything. 

For the times that I can't or when recommending improvised weapons for someone else, my favorites are small flashlights (Surefire E2D, mini Mag-light, Inova X-5, etc.) or big Sharpie markers.

I tell my students that if an object is small/light enough to easily pick up, I can hit with, stab with, or throw it.  If it's too heavy, or immovable, I can propel the bad guy into it (tables, railings, telephone poles, etc.)


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## Blotan Hunka (May 15, 2007)

Great youtube vid on improvised weapons HERE.


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## MJS (May 15, 2007)

shesulsa said:


> Well, we all know there are many things that can be used, but would you know how to deploy and would you be less likely to hurt someone with an improvised weapon than a real one?


 
IMO, it all comes down  to training with the weapon at hand.  As for injury...I suppose it would come down to what the weapon was and how you used it.  If I pick up a rock, I can throw it, but it may not cause as much damage as if I started hitting the person repeatedly on the head with it. 

Mike


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## MJS (May 15, 2007)

jdinca said:


> All quite true. I think what's important is that a person doesn't rely on these improvised weapons for true self defense but more as an adjunct and as a deterrent. For the average person, a set of keys may, or may not help. But for a martial artist to use keys to me means having a way to distract your attacker so that you can put something else you know into use. Rakes the keys across the face and while the attacker is focusing on you attacking his face with keys, make his knee bend the wrong way.
> 
> It's a mindset thing.


 
Exactly!!!  Well said and my thoughts exactly.  

Mike


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## tellner (May 15, 2007)

jdinca said:


> All quite true. I think what's important is that a person doesn't rely on these improvised weapons for true self defense but more as an adjunct and as a deterrent. For the average person, a set of keys may, or may not help. But for a martial artist to use keys to me means having a way to distract your attacker so that you can put something else you know into use. Rakes the keys across the face and while the attacker is focusing on you attacking his face with keys, make his knee bend the wrong way.
> 
> It's a mindset thing.



I'd modify that a bit. Granted, the improvised ones tend to be second choice over tools specifically designed as weapons. But you can put a serious hurt on someone with one. One example that comes to mind is Platypus Boy. It is a testament to the insanity of the United States Army that he was given a commission and command of troops in Iraq. But command he does, and he has developed quite a nose for ambushes. His preferred weapon is a short-barrelled Mossberg 590 loaded with Remington Solid Copper slugs. He says that nobody he has shot with one of those has ever gotten up again. 

Anyhow, in a supposedly safe area someone set off warning bells. PB didn't have a firearm. All he had was a five gallon bucket. He beat the guy - who was wearing a vest bomb - to death with it. I'd say he did a bit better than "distract" although I will grant that the attempted bomber was one distracted mother****er for a few seconds right there at the end


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## MaartenSFS (May 16, 2007)

tellner said:


> I'd modify that a bit. Granted, the improvised ones tend to be second choice over tools specifically designed as weapons. But you can put a serious hurt on someone with one. One example that comes to mind is Platypus Boy. It is a testament to the insanity of the United States Army that he was given a commission and command of troops in Iraq. But command he does, and he has developed quite a nose for ambushes. His preferred weapon is a short-barrelled Mossberg 590 loaded with Remington Solid Copper slugs. He says that nobody he has shot with one of those has ever gotten up again.
> 
> Anyhow, in a supposedly safe area someone set off warning bells. PB didn't have a firearm. All he had was a five gallon bucket. He beat the guy - who was wearing a vest bomb - to death with it. I'd say he did a bit better than "distract" although I will grant that the attempted bomber was one distracted mother****er for a few seconds right there at the end


 
That's quite bad-****, but who in the Hell is "Platypus Boy" and who named him?


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## tellner (May 16, 2007)

Platypus Boy is the nickname of an acquaintance of mine, currently a First Lieutenant in the United States Army.


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## jdinca (May 16, 2007)

tellner said:


> I'd modify that a bit. Granted, the improvised ones tend to be second choice over tools specifically designed as weapons. But you can put a serious hurt on someone with one. One example that comes to mind is Platypus Boy. It is a testament to the insanity of the United States Army that he was given a commission and command of troops in Iraq. But command he does, and he has developed quite a nose for ambushes. His preferred weapon is a short-barrelled Mossberg 590 loaded with Remington Solid Copper slugs. He says that nobody he has shot with one of those has ever gotten up again.
> 
> Anyhow, in a supposedly safe area someone set off warning bells. PB didn't have a firearm. All he had was a five gallon bucket. He beat the guy - who was wearing a vest bomb - to death with it. I'd say he did a bit better than "distract" although I will grant that the attempted bomber was one distracted mother****er for a few seconds right there at the end



That's a great story! I agree with your modification.


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## DavidCC (May 16, 2007)

I once heard a story of Ed Parker and a "salt shaker" form LOL demonstrating that, with proper understanding, no weapons are needed becasue everything is a weapon - an extension of your own body.


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## Em MacIntosh (May 22, 2007)

Some guy picked a fight with me so I invited outside.  I held the door open for him and slammed it on him three times as he walked through it.  Then I kicked him a lot.


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## tellner (May 22, 2007)

Damn, Ed. That was really low. It was unfair. It was dishonorable. You didn't stand up and fight him man-to-man according to the Principles of Bushido.

My hat's off to you, and while I wouldn't like you at my back at a party I'd be glad to have you at my back in a fight. You sure you're not really one of those nasty treacherous Silat players?


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