# Folders ~ Best knives for combat purposes?



## Kacey (Aug 27, 2006)

Lisa said:
			
		

> The other thread about "concealed weapons not on premises" made me start thinking.  What do you all do about work?  Does your work know about your concealed weapons permit?  Do they allow you to carry at work? and what do they think about your whole enthusiasm with guns,self protection and weapons concealment?  or, is it that you all hold jobs like LEO, etc. where it isn't uncommon?
> 
> Enquiring minds want to know.


Well, being a teacher, I can't bring anything to school - the only armed person (barring inch-long knives on keychains) is the SRO (School Resource Officer - an officer from our local precinct).  Anything up to 3" is actually okay, but I don't own anything like that, except kitchen knives - and who wants to walk around with a kitchen knife?


----------



## TomKat (Aug 27, 2006)

Kacey, the folders are well known to be the best knives for combat purposes.  You can probably find one with a 3" blade.  Many manufactures make them, Gerber being just one of them.  But please, learn how to use it first if you decide to carry a knife for self-defense.  =)


----------



## SFC JeffJ (Aug 27, 2006)

Um, why are folding knives the "best" for combat?  They are slower to deploy and inherently weaker than a fixed blade.

Jeff


----------



## Kacey (Aug 27, 2006)

TomKat said:
			
		

> Kacey, the folders are well known to be the best knives for combat purposes.  You can probably find one with a 3" blade.  Many manufactures make them, Gerber being just one of them.  But please, learn how to use it first if you decide to carry a knife for self-defense.  =)



I'm sure you're right - but I don't want to carry a knife, and I do have a folding blade I could carry if I wanted to.  I have a one inch Swiss Army knife on a keychain, and the only things I've ever used it for are opening letters and boxes, and as a screwdriver.  I'm not trained as a knife fighter, and I don't really want to be, although I have taken knife defense training.  The only reason I know about the 3" rule is because another teacher had to stop carrying his Leatherman (at least on his belt) because the blade on it was longer than 3".  Likewise, I would never carry a gun, as I have only minimal knowledge of how to use one, having never done so.  But thanks for the advice!


----------



## TomKat (Aug 28, 2006)

Well Jeff, I'm sure it all comes down to personal preference.  The fighting folders do have a good reputation for being ideal for self defense.  The blade can be flung open with one quick move.  Of course, knives do have their limitations, & can only be used in deadly force situations.


----------



## Drac (Aug 28, 2006)

JeffJ said:
			
		

> Um, why are folding knives the "best" for combat? They are slower to deploy and inherently weaker than a fixed blade.
> 
> Jeff


 
Never could figure that out..I carry one of the new Ka-Bar knives that has a fixed blade and its own sheath..Unless I show it off you wouldn't see it..Its small enougfh to fit behind my magazine holders..As far as the weapon I am an LEO and I only carry 50% of the time...But I carry it EVERYWHERE except Airports and certain Goverment facilities...


----------



## arnisandyz (Aug 28, 2006)

Combat folders are a modern day compromise of convenience. It can be said that they are "the best" for everyday self-defense use because one is more likely to carry one and something is better than nothing. Stucturally, an equivelent fixed blade is superior.


----------



## Drac (Aug 28, 2006)

arnisandyz said:
			
		

> Combat folders are a modern day compromise of convenience. It can be said that they are "the best" for everyday self-defense use because one is more likely to carry one and something is better than nothing. Stucturally, an equivelent fixed blade is superior.


 
I agree....


----------



## TomKat (Aug 28, 2006)

There are now available folders that actually have a locking blade, which in my opinion are far better than the folders that have non-locking blades.


----------



## NOZR1 (Aug 28, 2006)

:-offtopic :deadhorse


----------



## SFC JeffJ (Aug 28, 2006)

TomKat said:
			
		

> There are now available folders that actually have a locking blade, which in my opinion are far better than the folders that have non-locking blades.


Can you explain this?  Folders with locks have been around for quite a while.  And even back in the early seventies, you could buy "flipits" for your Buck 110 lockback.

Jeff


----------



## Lisa (Aug 28, 2006)

*MODERATOR NOTE:

Posts moved from this thread as it is good conversation worthy of it's own thread but off topic.

Lisa Deneka
MartialTalk Super Moderator
*


----------



## Blindside (Aug 28, 2006)

TomKat said:
			
		

> There are now available folders that actually have a locking blade, which in my opinion are far better than the folders that have non-locking blades.


 
Yes this is true, but fundamentally folders are slower and weaker than their fixed blade counterparts.  The reason for the "tactical folder" market existing is the outlawing of fixed blades in certain jurisdictions.  There is nothing that a folder can do that a fixed blade can't do better, except perhaps appearing innocuous.

Lamont


----------



## arnisador (Aug 28, 2006)

TomKat said:
			
		

> Kacey, the folders are well known to be the best knives for combat purposes.



Absolutely not. But they are often a good compromise between various needs and desires.



> You can probably find one with a 3" blade.



Yes, for every law on the books there is a knife made to conform to it.


----------



## arnisador (Aug 28, 2006)

Blindside said:
			
		

> YThe reason for the "tactical folder" market existing is the outlawing of fixed blades in certain jurisdictions.



I discussed an interesting article from the Wall Street Journal about the marketing side of tactical knives here. The headline described it as a $1 billion business.



> There is nothing that a folder can do that a fixed blade can't do better, except perhaps appearing innocuous.



I agree. A folder offers concealment, ease of carry and, potentially, the less-serious option of using it closed. But a fixed blade is superior in every way once the combat phase has been entered.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Aug 28, 2006)

I prefer fixed blades. Yet as stated by others here already, the modern folder is the compromise that many people and even most people in society have accepted.

Personally I like my fixed blade with hilt and a 10+ inches if edge on the blade. 

But that is not as easy to carry as the folders, and many consider it an agressive weapon for its' size.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 28, 2006)

If I needed a knife for defense or combat I would always choose a fixed knife blade over a folder. (always)  However, unfortunately it is not always legally exceptable or practical to be carrying a fixed blade so folders are then the effective compromise and for that reason they are very, very useful.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


----------



## Carol (Aug 28, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:
			
		

> If I needed a knife for defense or combat I would always choose a fixed knife blade over a folder. (always) However, unfortunately it is not always legally exceptable or practical to be carrying a fixed blade so folders are then the effective compromise and for that reason they are very, very useful.
> 
> Brian R. VanCise
> www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


 
I agree, Brian.  I guess I see folders as more of an adaptation than a compromise.  Concealment of the knife (in my state anyway) is an absolute necessity to stay on the good side of the local constabulary.  

Personally I think what conceals the blade the best really depends on the style of blade and the clothes I'm wearing.  A folder certainly is easy to wear, but I've also borrowed a smaller fixed blade that I sheathed in the small of my back...keeping the blade concealed under my clothes and avoiding the telltale clip on my front pocket.

Haven't made a commitment to buy a fixed or a folder yet...I have the feeling I'll end up with one of each


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 28, 2006)

Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> I agree, Brian. I guess I see folders as more of an adaptation than a compromise. Concealment of the knife (in my state anyway) is an absolute necessity to stay on the good side of the local constabulary.
> 
> Personally I think what conceals the blade the best really depends on the style of blade and the clothes I'm wearing. A folder certainly is easy to wear, but I've also borrowed a smaller fixed blade that I sheathed in the small of my back...keeping the blade concealed under my clothes and avoiding the telltale clip on my front pocket.
> 
> Haven't made a commitment to buy a fixed or a folder yet...I have the feeling I'll end up with one of each


 
Watch out once you start buying them it is hard to stop! 

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


----------



## Swordlady (Aug 28, 2006)

JeffJ said:
			
		

> Um, why are folding knives the "best" for combat?  They are slower to deploy and inherently weaker than a fixed blade.
> 
> Jeff



Actually, the Kershaw speed-safe folding knives (Chive, Scallion, Leek) deploy _very_ quickly - I daresay just as fast as a switchblade.  I can whip mine out in an instant.

And if I'm not mistaken, the maximum allowed blade length for folding knives is 3", at least in my state.


----------



## arnisador (Aug 28, 2006)

Swordlady said:
			
		

> And if I'm not mistaken, the maximum allowed blade length for folding knives is 3", at least in my state.



It varies. In Atlanta the limit is 2", but someone recently killed one mugger and wounded another with such a blade. (This is the story referred to here, though the story linked there doesn't mention the 2" limit. The fact is related in the Wall Street Journal article referred to in the first link.) See www.packing.org for some state-by-state info. on knife lengths. I believe that 4" is pretty common.

As to assisted-open knives...I am always somewhat suspicious. I have a few of them. Sometimes they open when they shouldn't. I am loathe to rely on a mechanical device...yet, some are very simple and seem to be reliable, like the Waverider feature. A swicthblade is quick, but tends to be flimsy and fails easily. There's no winning! A fixed blade is best, when feasible.


----------



## SFC JeffJ (Aug 28, 2006)

Here in Indiana, there is no length restriction. If I wanted too, I could carry around a machete.  It just can't be an automatic knife or "shoot" the blade.  The assisted opening ones are perfectly legal though.


----------



## SFC JeffJ (Aug 28, 2006)

Drac said:
			
		

> Never could figure that out..I carry one of the new Ka-Bar knives that has a fixed blade and its own sheath..Unless I show it off you wouldn't see it..Its small enougfh to fit behind my magazine holders..As far as the weapon I am an LEO and I only carry 50% of the time...But I carry it EVERYWHERE except Airports and certain Goverment facilities...


Do you mean the K-Bar TDI knife?  I just got one of those.  Nice little discreet knife there.

There are many fixed blade knives that are designed to be carried discreetly and deployed quickly with 4 inch blades and smaller.


----------



## SFC JeffJ (Aug 28, 2006)

Swordlady said:
			
		

> Actually, the Kershaw speed-safe folding knives (Chive, Scallion, Leek) deploy _very_ quickly - I daresay just as fast as a switchblade.  I can whip mine out in an instant.
> 
> And if I'm not mistaken, the maximum allowed blade length for folding knives is 3", at least in my state.


True, I'd rather have one of the Kershaw assisted opening than most auto knives I've handled.  But they are still slower to deploy than a fixed blade.

Jeff


----------



## arnisador (Aug 28, 2006)

JeffJ said:
			
		

> DThere are many fixed blade knives that are designed to be carried discreetly and deployed quickly with 4 inch blades and smaller.



Neck knives, for example! Yes, fixed blades can be concealed, with some care. Some people hide spike-like knives in their clothes in truly ingenious ways!


----------



## SFC JeffJ (Aug 29, 2006)

I prefer using an IWB sheath.  Discreet and easy to deploy.  

Jeff


----------



## TomKat (Aug 29, 2006)

The Crawford/Kasper folder is an excellent choice.  It sells for around $50.  It has a 3" blade & a safety system that prevents it from closing while in use.


----------



## Grenadier (Aug 29, 2006)

Folders are great to have with you.  A good quality lockback blade can serve quite well as a combat or utility tool, and the difference in many a locality, is that a lockback knife with a sub-3" blade is most likely going to be perfectly legal in most places, whereas something that goes beyond might be restricted (again depending on locality).  

I recommend Spyderco's Delica knife (any of the options).  This is a very easily concealed knife, and that the blade is an excellent one, backed by Spyderco's lifetime warranty.  

The blade is 2 7/8", which is plenty long enough for combat purposes, should you need to use it, but at the same time, the knife all but disappears into a front pants pocket, or is easily clipped to the pocket, with only a very slightly noticeable clip showing.  It can be rapidly deployed, and to me, I see no difference in the speed of deployment between this and the assisted opening ones.  

Spyderco's bargain brand, Byrd, also makes a similar knife for even cheaper, but it's still a good one.


----------



## arnisandyz (Aug 29, 2006)

I like the Emersons with the Wave feature. It has a little hook that catches on the pocket that opens the blade. No buttons or thumb studs to manipulate. Its as fast as drawing a fixed blade knife.


----------



## SFC JeffJ (Aug 29, 2006)

Has anyone tried, or seen in use that "sheath" for folding knives that opens the blade as you pull it out?  I'm pretty sure it's made by CRKT.

Jeff


----------



## Stan (Aug 29, 2006)

Many people here are discussing the legal advantages of a folder, but I'm curious; do you know of any jurisdiction where a folder is more legal than a fixed blade of _exactly_ the same blade length?  If not, I would think even a really small fixed blade would make a beter defensive knife- bigger handle, more likely to have a guard, etc.  I'm dubious of many folders.  They're great for slashing, but slashing doesn't end fights.  Every time I try thrusting with a folder, I feel like my hand will slide up the blade on impact.


----------



## arnisandyz (Aug 29, 2006)

Haven't seen the CRKT one. Is this a generic sheath for different folders or designed to work with a specific model?

I did see a kydex sheath at a gunshow made by Cutters Knife & Tool that opens thier Bengal karambit on draw. I think the guy said blade-tech made them for CKAT.


found it http://www.karambit.com/ckat_qr_kydex.htm


----------



## arnisador (Aug 29, 2006)

Stan said:
			
		

> Many people here are discussing the legal advantages of a folder, but I'm curious; do you know of any jurisdiction where a folder is more legal than a fixed blade of _exactly_ the same blade length?



I think the difference is not in the law but in how the court might view it. Legally, apart from switchblades, it's just blade length that's regulated, I believe. An effort is made by manufacturers to keep assisted-open knives from being labeled switchblades. The switchblade laws were probably never needed, but they're still on the books.

I like folders for the convenience, but as mentioned one can often do as well with a short fixed blade.


----------



## arnisador (Aug 29, 2006)

JeffJ said:
			
		

> Has anyone tried, or seen in use that "sheath" for folding knives that opens the blade as you pull it out?  I'm pretty sure it's made by CRKT.



You probably mean the Merlin that is discussed here. Looks pretty neat to me, but I couldn't see myself wearing one.


----------



## Blindside (Aug 29, 2006)

Stan said:
			
		

> Many people here are discussing the legal advantages of a folder, but I'm curious; do you know of any jurisdiction where a folder is more legal than a fixed blade of _exactly_ the same blade length? If not, I would think even a really small fixed blade would make a beter defensive knife- bigger handle, more likely to have a guard, etc. I'm dubious of many folders. They're great for slashing, but slashing doesn't end fights. Every time I try thrusting with a folder, I feel like my hand will slide up the blade on impact.


 
I live in Wyoming now, where there is no problem with open carry of a fixed blade, or a restriction on length, but I grew up in Seattle and there is a distinct difference in the Seattle Municipal Code:



> SMC 12A.14.010  Definitions.
> 
> The following definitions apply in this chapter:
> 
> ...



So in this city ANY fixed blade is outlawed while folders up to 3.5 inches are considered not to be a "dangerous knife."

Lamont


----------



## arnisandyz (Aug 29, 2006)

Automatic opening knives are legal to own here in Florida. Flea Market is swarming with cheap examples.  MicroTech is probably one of the better known auto-knife makers, they're located about an hour south of me. But I really don't see a benift to have an auto besides the coolness factor, you still have to push a button. Not sure about the legality of carry for non-license holders? In Florida we have a Concealed Weapons Liscense (CWL) which lets you carry pretty much anything legal. no size limit.

Florida Statute 790.225- Ballistic self-propelled knives are unlawful to manufacture, sell, or possess punishable by forfeiture and penalty. 
It is unlawful for any person to manufacture, display, sell, own, possess, or use a ballistic self-propelled knife which is a device that propels a knifelike blade as a projectile and which physically separates the blade from the device by means of a coil spring, elastic material, or compressed gas. A ballistic self-propelled knife is declared to be a dangerous or deadly weapon and a contraband item. It shall be subject to seizure and shall be disposed of as provided in 790.08. Any person violating these provisions is guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree. 
This section shall not apply to any device from which a knifelike blade opens, where such blade remains physically integrated with the device when open (ie Switchblade, stiletto, etc).


----------



## matt.m (Aug 29, 2006)

I was a Marine for 5 years so I am partial to the K-Bar.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 29, 2006)

matt.m said:
			
		

> I was a Marine for 5 years so I am partial to the K-Bar.


 
I love the K-Bar.  Great combat knife all around.  

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 29, 2006)

Stan said:
			
		

> Many people here are discussing the legal advantages of a folder, but I'm curious; do you know of any jurisdiction where a folder is more legal than a fixed blade of _exactly_ the same blade length? If not, I would think even a really small fixed blade would make a beter defensive knife- bigger handle, more likely to have a guard, etc. I'm dubious of many folders. They're great for slashing, but slashing doesn't end fights. Every time I try thrusting with a folder, I feel like my hand will slide up the blade on impact.


 
Like I said before a fixed blade is always preferable but unfortuantely not legal everywhere.  Plus when you are in court and your lawyer is defending you it *might* be easier for them to defend you with a folder because almost every male out there has carried a folder at one time or another.  On the other side very few people are walking around carrying fixed bladed knives.  So legally you may have an advantage if taken to court over a matter where you had to pull it out.  Myself, I use my folder every day to open things up. (every day)  It is a utility knife par excellence and that is a good reason for me to be carrying it.  It can also quickly and efficiently be used for personal protection. (that is another plus)

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


----------



## arnisandyz (Aug 29, 2006)

K-bars are great!

Look here for other good suggestions
http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21632

I do think the title of this thread needs more clarification. For an out-and-out Combat knife you're looking at a knife in the 11-12" overall size range. Seems like alot of people are talking about modern day self-defense type knives and taking into consideration legal and social concerns. 

Maybe this should be split into 2 categories?  True combat knives without compromise and self-defense knives citizens would carry on a daily basis? If given the choice - ie: your going into a combat zone - you probably wouldn't pick a folder as your primary blade (maybe as a handy secondary utility knife) and likewise, a fullsize combat knive would be cumbersome to carry to work everyday.  What knives would fit in the middle of the 2? Maybe an 8 or 9" fixed blade that still carried well?

OK...sorry, read though the first post about carrying TO WORK.


----------



## Carol (Aug 29, 2006)

Stan said:
			
		

> Many people here are discussing the legal advantages of a folder, but I'm curious; do you know of any jurisdiction where a folder is more legal than a fixed blade of _exactly_ the same blade length?


 
I'm guessing that question is directed at me by the comments that I made.  

"More legal" is a question best answered by a qualified attorney.   I was very careful to not use the word "legal" in my post.

More likely to draw the ire of law enforcement is yet another story.  As anyone that lives here can testify, Massachusetts is not a weapons-friendly state.  The local police chiefs have quite a bit of say in who packs what, as well as what laws they choose to bring charges on or not.

For anyone that lives outside of Massachusetts and wants to bring a weapon IN to Massachusetts, my words of advice would be...unless the Commonwealth of Massachusetts has issued you a Massachusetts  Non-Resident License To Carry and you have said license IN YOUR HANDS, leave your guns at home.  If you bring a knife within our borders, be EXTREMELY careful.


----------



## arnisador (Aug 29, 2006)

Blindside said:
			
		

> > B. Carry concealed or unconcealed on his or her person any dangerous
> > knife, or carry concealed on his or her person any deadly weapon other
> > than a firearm;



No deadly weapon _other_ than a firearm? Dammit Spock, where's the logic in _that_?


----------



## Blindside (Aug 29, 2006)

JeffJ said:
			
		

> Has anyone tried, or seen in use that "sheath" for folding knives that opens the blade as you pull it out? I'm pretty sure it's made by CRKT.
> 
> Jeff


 
Emerson has one as well, take a look at the videos that come link to this site:
http://www.emersonknives.com/Gear_Sheath_Systems.html

And although I have an Emerson, I don't really see the need for this system as my knife is waved.


----------



## Blindside (Aug 29, 2006)

arnisador said:
			
		

> No deadly weapon _other_ than a firearm? Dammit Spock, where's the logic in _that_?


 
Logic? Nuh uh, think NRA lobby.


----------



## Don Roley (Aug 30, 2006)

Grenadier said:
			
		

> I recommend Spyderco's Delica knife (any of the options).  This is a very easily concealed knife, and that the blade is an excellent one, backed by Spyderco's lifetime warranty.
> 
> The blade is 2 7/8", which is plenty long enough for combat purposes, should you need to use it, but at the same time, the knife all but disappears into a front pants pocket, or is easily clipped to the pocket, with only a very slightly noticeable clip showing.  It can be rapidly deployed, and to me, I see no difference in the speed of deployment between this and the assisted opening ones.



I have got both the Delica and a Kershaw assisted opening knife and I can tell the difference. The Kershaw is also easier to open under stress or frozen fingers.

But I carry the Delica most of the time. If you have a friend with the right tools, you can add on one of those "wave" notches on them and that makes the assisted- opened- Kershaw look tame. And my friend even got it so that the notch can be used as a bottle opener. Very usefull for me and a great excuse in case the Japanese police want to know what the hell it is.

Again, if I was expecting trouble I would not carry a folder. I would probably go for a rifle if I could. Sadly the laws of most places tend to frown on that. :mp5:  And even the self defense tools I have like OC spray and my ASP baton get left home most of the time due to them being dead weight for 99.99999999 percent of my life. But the Delica is a useful thing to have, especially with my bottle opener. :drinkbeer


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 31, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> But the Delica is a useful thing to have, especially with my bottle opener. :drinkbeer


 
Useful and practical.  You definately have to like that. 





Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


----------

