# Heavy bags, condintionind etc..help !!



## jwU (Dec 29, 2008)

So I have a heavy bag now and have been discusiing  gloves or no gloves with people.

I tried no gloves and damn...it does hurt right.

a boxer friend said never do it with no gloves , but other martial artists i have discussed with say to stick at it with no gloves as it will condition the hands.

Obviously I cant put too much power into techniques on the bag at the moment as my hands arent up to it.

so i was thinking of doing a mixture of rounds (endurance type work) with gloves and then some work without gloves. hoping in time I will be able to cast the gloves aside.

I tend not to use the bag like a boxer might, rather try to use it for as many kenpo techniques as I can.

any tips /ideas on bag work relevant to kenpo and especially the glove vs no no glove debate?


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## MJS (Dec 29, 2008)

jwU said:


> So I have a heavy bag now and have been discusiing gloves or no gloves with people.
> 
> I tried no gloves and damn...it does hurt right.
> 
> ...


 
Your hands will most likely take some abuse if you don't use gloves.  I'm assuming you will be throwing more than just punches?  So you'll be doing things like palm strikes, rakes, elbows, etc.?  

Whatever you throw, make sure that you have proper form.  At some point, you may want to wrap your hands and put on some gloves, so you can focus on really hitting the bag.


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## Flying Crane (Dec 29, 2008)

First of all, think about the ratio of bag-weight to your body-weight.  Unless you are training with very high intensity to be a professional fighter, you probably don't want a bag that weighs more than about half of your body weight.  More than that and you can start to jam up your wrists and joints, and you just take more beating than you need.

Now, I think it's good that you say you don't work the bag like a boxer, instead you work basic kenpo techniques.  I think it's possible to work Self Defense techniques as combos on the bag, but I think it's more important to work the basics, like reverse punches, jabs, knifehands, ridgehands, hammerfists, backfists, etc., from various angles and positions.  Just drill the basics and make them powerful.  And pay attention to your stances when you land your strikes.  Bad stances = poor strikes.

I don't like to wrap up or use gloves.  If you do so, then you always have support and protection in your hands and wrists when you are training.  You will never figure out how to hit "naked", and not get hurt.  But if you need to defend yourself, of course you will not be given the opportunity to wrap up first.  So start slow and easy to avoid injury and figure it out.  But at the same time, expect a few minor injures along the way as part of the process.  Eventually you will have it figured out, and you will have conditioned your hands and wrists to take the abuse.

Secondly, don't overdo it.  I don't feel you need to spend hours at a time, nor work the bag more than once or twice a week.  I think it is one part of a good training routine, but like anything, it should't be done to the expense of the other methods.  So maybe half an hour on hand strikes, half an hour on kicks, once a week is plenty.  If you are feeling feisty, then twice a week.  I think it ought to be regular so that you stay conditioned and used to the striking, but don't overdo it.


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## Nolerama (Dec 29, 2008)

If you're going for longevity then wear something... Like handwraps or a bag glove. Even the cheapo MMA gloves from Sports Authority.

Bag work is a great addition to a workout, as well as an excellent way to play with your technique and footwork. If I could I would do it every day (with some form of wrist/knuckle protection).

Knocking a heavy bag around every day without gloves will eventually, and permanently, hurt your hands and wrists. Personally, I wouldn't want to have arthritis early on in life.

Right now, I wear boxing gloves while sparring, and wear handwraps when we're boxing heavily. All the heavy bag work is done with some sort of protection... To me, it's just common sense.


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## seasoned (Dec 29, 2008)

I prefer to use no protection when using the heavy bag. It is just something I have done all of my MA life. When using various closed hand techniques it is important to strike with the proper part of the hand. With gloves on, there is a greater chance of hitting wrong. The first two knuckles are the surface to concentrate on when hitting, and that goes for the back fist also. There is less chance of a boxers fracture and also hitting with the soft part of the back of your hand when using the back fist strike. I also prefer using a combination of open hand strikes and deflections, so gloves get in the way. I was taught many years ago by my Sensei that our hands are our weapons, so never cover them. Obviously there are exceptions as in sparing, but in that case, it is for your partners protection and not for your hand protection. Each has to decide for themself.


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## KenpoDave (Dec 29, 2008)

Nolerama said:


> Knocking a heavy bag around every day without gloves will eventually, and permanently, hurt your hands and wrists. Personally, I wouldn't want to have arthritis early on in life.


 
What sort of time frame?  What about a gradual progression of intensity?  I ask because I have been hitting heavy bags and wooden posts for 23 years with no indication of arthritis in my hands or arms, but I started gradually, and still continue to cycle gradually.

And, I know others who have used similar methods as mine, some have no arthritis, and some do.  I also know several people who have always used gloves and/or wraps, same situation.  Some have beat up their hands and are suffering now, others have  not.  Most boxers I know who have been in real fights have broken their hands, mainly because the properly taped hand inside a boxing glove does not resemble a fist.

It seems to me that the training method is more important than the safety equipment.


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## qwksilver61 (Dec 29, 2008)

Slow ,speed, power,one tech,at a time............proper technique at first...do not be too anxious..


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## Nolerama (Dec 30, 2008)

KenpoDave said:


> What sort of time frame? What about a gradual progression of intensity? I ask because I have been hitting heavy bags and wooden posts for 23 years with no indication of arthritis in my hands or arms, but I started gradually, and still continue to cycle gradually.
> 
> And, I know others who have used similar methods as mine, some have no arthritis, and some do. I also know several people who have always used gloves and/or wraps, same situation. Some have beat up their hands and are suffering now, others have not. Most boxers I know who have been in real fights have broken their hands, mainly because the properly taped hand inside a boxing glove does not resemble a fist.
> 
> It seems to me that the training method is more important than the safety equipment.


 
First, I think there's a huge difference in the way we train, and it's (toeing that line again) beating a dead horse all over again: real fight vs. training.

Personally, I've had some aches and pains in my wrist not from just hitting a punching bag, but that in addition to other activities in my life.

I prefer to punch a bag with power in mind as well... Now, that comment will probably flare up all kinds of opinions of the validity of heavy bags, training, and SD vs whatever, but please bear with me.

I've had doctors tell me that while they think that MMA seems like a great way to keep in shape, they've all told me that I should be using some sort of protection for my hands, specifically when hitting something hard. I'll respect their opinion.

(In terms of timelines... let's give it 30 years. People are different. I'm just trying to pose some general common sense.)

I've also been in a recent encounter where I did have to throw a punch. It was a good one, with power, and it stuck. Outside of a few scrapes, my hand is very intact.

I think it makes sense to wear hand wraps or gloves when using a heavy bag. However, for SD range purposes, I sometimes take off the gloves because that's what I'm training for at that time.

But then again, I don't break boards, cement blocks, or smack wooden posts around, so who am I to give my opinion? I don't want to be a tough guy. I just want to be an effective fighter that's able to type, draw and paint in the latter years of his life.


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## mook jong man (Dec 30, 2008)

I don't use any protection on my hands and I have been hitting canvas wallbags and heavy bags for years with no problems , but I use a vertical fist and hit with the last three knuckles of my hand so my advice may not be applicable to your method of striking .


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## MJS (Dec 30, 2008)

qwksilver61 said:


> Slow ,speed, power,one tech,at a time............proper technique at first...do not be too anxious..


 
Agreed!   I can't believe the number of people I have seen just beating on the bag.  They think that because the bag is moving, that they're puching correctly and with alot of power.  However, if we were to really watch, we'd see that their 'strikes' are more of a push, than anything.  Couple that with improper form, and that IMO, is a plan for injuries.


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## KenpoDave (Dec 30, 2008)

Nolerama said:


> First, I think there's a huge difference in the way we train, and it's (toeing that line again) beating a dead horse all over again: real fight vs. training.
> 
> Personally, I've had some aches and pains in my wrist not from just hitting a punching bag, but that in addition to other activities in my life.


 
Me, too.



> I prefer to punch a bag with power in mind as well... Now, that comment will probably flare up all kinds of opinions of the validity of heavy bags, training, and SD vs whatever, but please bear with me.


 
Well, what I would say is that part of the training process is becoming aware of what your hand/wrist can take.  There is a difference between the power that you can generate with padded knuckles and a supported wrist vs. an unsupported bare hand.  It seems that a whole lot of hand/wrist injuries come from people, who, when they fight, punch like they have trained, and if they have trained wearing support, then they break their wrist or hand.

I believe that makiwara training is all about teaching you how to create tension in the hand to support the structure during impact, and that knuckle pushups are really for the wrist, not knuckle callouses.  I hit bags with fingertip strikes and single knuckles...NOT to strengthen them, but to become aware of what I am capable of doing with my hand.  Never had an injury, yet.



> I've had doctors tell me that while they think that MMA seems like a great way to keep in shape, they've all told me that I should be using some sort of protection for my hands, specifically when hitting something hard. I'll respect their opinion.


 
I would too.  But I have had doctors tell me both ways.  In discussions, I have discovered that the docs who are against training with no protection assume that you begin hitting hard objects with full power on the first day.



> (In terms of timelines... let's give it 30 years. People are different. I'm just trying to pose some general common sense.)


 
I was hoping you'd say 10.  I guess I'll let you know for sure in about 5 more years...;-)



> I've also been in a recent encounter where I did have to throw a punch. It was a good one, with power, and it stuck. Outside of a few scrapes, my hand is very intact.


 


> I think it makes sense to wear hand wraps or gloves when using a heavy bag. However, for SD range purposes, I sometimes take off the gloves because that's what I'm training for at that time.


 
I am with you.  I am not against gloves.  I am against knowing your limitations without the gloves, and my preference is to train without them.

Thanks for your comments.


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## Hand Sword (Dec 31, 2008)

Start with gloves, after a while your hands will get accustomed to the abuse. Then move on to thinner gloves for a while, then maybe just wrap your hands lightly, then bare handed. Slow but steady.


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## Sigung86 (Dec 31, 2008)

I, personally, have always worked the Chinese side of conditioning.  No wraps, but intelligent use of striking pads, hand surfaces, and a liberal supply of dit da jow or iron palm medication.  Perhaps it's the conservative side of me, but I like being sixty, and still being able to do things like hold knives and forks, write, poiint with my index fingers, etc. etc. etc.


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## Flying Crane (Dec 31, 2008)

Sigung86 said:


> I, personally, have always worked the Chinese side of conditioning.  No wraps, but intelligent use of striking pads, hand surfaces, and a liberal supply of dit da jow or iron palm medication.  Perhaps it's the conservative side of me, but I like being sixty, and still being able to do things like hold knives and forks, write, poiint with my index fingers, etc. etc. etc.



Never underestimate the benefits of a good jow.


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## KempoGuy06 (Jan 5, 2009)

your hands will take some punishment with or without gloves but the most important thing to worry about are you joints: wrist/elbows/shoulders. Like MJS said proper technique is key and will help save you joints but as your wrists are the joints that take the most pounding i suggest a hand wrap with wrist supports at the least

B


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## Scotty (Apr 5, 2009)

I would say go without the gloves. Start slow and allow your hands/feet toughen up a bit before going all out. In Ed Parker's Kenpo Karate book he has a whole section on how to toughen your hands/fingers/feet....etc.


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