# Complete System????



## Kirk (Apr 24, 2002)

I've heard time and time again about how Kenpo is a complete
system of self defense.  I'm SOOO glad that my TKD instructor
made my big *** jump so much so often to kill my shins!   Made
me look elsewhere, and finally finding EPAK.  

Since I've started, I've noticed that a LOT of EPAK schools teach
some variation of Kali in their schools too.   If EPAK is a complete
system, why do we study Kali/Escrima/Stick N' Knife?  I was told
that it'll "help you learn flow" but that means I can learn flow by
concentrating all my efforts on kenpo, correct?  By "complete
system" do they really mean "complete empty handed system" ?

I've even heard people say that cross training in another art for
the purpose of acheiving rank is counter productive, because if
I look _hard_ enough, I'll see that's already in the EPAK 
system.  

What gives?


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## Sandor (Apr 24, 2002)

hrm...

This is my take so if toes get trampled apologies in advance 

Kenpo is a complete system unto itself, all the matches and category completions are there for you to discover. That said, Kenpo is an empty hand art, there are no weapons, no firearms training, no extensive grappling material and there is no internal health management in the system. The weapons techniques taught are empty handed techniques adapted to deal with the weapon presented. So there are indeed things that Kenpo doesn't cover in the day to day grind. 

Many Kenpo practitioners study the Filipino arts for a variety of reasons. Some like to learn flow drills and then adapt them to their Kenpo repetior (get a class with Zach Whitson or chekout the Flow Hitting articles I wrote a while back for a brief overview). Others like to learn the Arnis, Kali, etc. because the tactical understanding required to disarm an oponent who has a weapon is much more indepth than Kenpo presents in its curricula. If you want to learn how to defend against a given weapon then you must first learn how that weapon is used by experienced pratitioners of weapons arts. From there you can start to build an understanding and defensive vocabulary to learn disarms etc.

As for 'Cross-Training' (which really refers to progressive resistance training concepts to enhance an athletes abilities in a given sport through the use of weights) I think what you mean is 'Cross-Learning' and that is a fine thing to do. Personally, I don't recommend it for ranks below brown/black as it is important to complete ones training in the basics before moving on. Master Planas put it like this 'I suggest study all you can or want to study like in going to college. You have a major and a minor and if you loaded yourself down with too many classes you could flunk out and not accomplish anything. So, just do what you can handle efficiently. It would be wise to study systems with similar styles of motion like the Indonesian and Filipino systems are very similar to Kenpo and would not cause any problems in learning. '

There you have it  enjoy...


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## Goldendragon7 (Apr 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Sandor _
> *hrm...
> 
> This is my take so if toes get trampled apologies in advance
> ...



Some of our toes have tacks on them so sorry for the return ouchie ......... 

I don't understand what you are saying, you contradict yourself.
You first say that Kenpo is a complete system unto itself left for you to discover ......... then you say that Kenpo is a limited to only being an "empty hand Art" with no further aspects of training involved.  What's up with that!!

I'm sorry Sandor but I completely disagree with you on this!  Don't tell me you that you buy into one persons belief that all you need to do is sit around and figure what techniques are similar and categorize all the base 154 that we have.... You must not have learned the "What if" at all.

If you are to swallow your own medicine...... then complete the category for this........
Explain to me why Mr. Parker in Infinite Insights Vol 1, page/s 46-48, explained to us about Self Defense and its methods of attack. They are....

Unarmed vs. Unarmed (we spend much time here)
Unarmed vs. Armed  (we also spend some time here)
"ARMED VS. UNARMED" (this also should be examined)
"ARMED VS. ARMED" (this should also be developed)

If you just look at the curriculum from a limited perspective..... Yes, I supposed I would develop your understanding too.  If you look at What Ed Parker himself penned....... He did it for a reason.... for us to learn the other Categories as well.... Discover them if you will since he didn't have time to finish his work.  He certainly knew of the importance of these categories and we discussed it on many occasions.

Kenpo does have "everything within its boundaries" but not all its Kenpoists do, that is the problem.

Please don't mislead other of our awesome Art, they are beginners and are asking intelligent questions because many of the beginners read and want to understand why some instructors teach contrary material to what Ed Parker said and did.  
This does confuse the students and makes it difficult to explain at times.

Sorry if I'm sharp, but Kenpo is my passion and nothing is geared toward anyone personally.
:Asian:


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## Michael Billings (Apr 24, 2002)

KENPO is not limited, just some peoples understanding of KENPO.
(and I should add, the ability to articulate physically and orally the information they have to others.)  

As aggressive as this sounds, I am not attacking Sandor - rather, I think this is a truism for all of us to acknowledge about ourselves.  I am always learning and looking to learn even more.  If it starts in another art, usually it does not, but when it does, I put it back into a Kenpo framework ... or rather I find where within the Kenpo framework, that it already resided ... and I just did not recognize the technique or bit of knowledge until someone beat me over the head with it. 

Slow to learn, slow to forget,
Michael B.


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## Roland (Apr 24, 2002)

I have always looked at it in two different ways...

Martial Arts is not for everybody. Those who need, want, choose to do Martial Arts have many 'styles' to look into. 
 Kenpo is one of them. The 'style' we choose is not for everyone who chooses to do Martial Arts. It might be for you, it might be for me, but that does not mean it is for everyone.
There are so many stlyes because there are so many different people. :soapbox: 


If there was a truly complete system out there, we would all be doing it.
:bomb:


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## Sandor (Apr 24, 2002)

Mr.C,

Ouch! I knew i felt something sharp under foot hehe... 

For every person Kenpo is where their training takes it. Kenpo is imho the most complete art there is. However, when I wanted to learn how to use/defend against sticks and knives I went elsewhere(progressive arnis) being of the belief that systems that primarily focus on the use of a particular item would be the best place to start. When I wanted information on groundfighting I went and learned shootfighting(ironically from a Kenpo guy) and worked on those skills. When I wanted to learn more about healing arts I went elsewhere too. I don't mean to mislead the beginners out there who ask questions rather just open up the possibilities to them that the big picture is really REALLY big and as we wander around the other arts we always come full circle to the one that makes the most sense; Kenpo.

My point is that the mastery of a given weapon comes from the learning the system the weapon came from. In retrospect, I can see and feel Kenpo in the use of the weapons and that for me is why I always stick to Kenpo as the main focus of my personal studies. If I want to learn Iai-Do's sword techniques and disarms I will go there not because of some void in Kenpo that overlooks people walking down the street with a 38" blade hanging from their belt but because that is where that information is taught by people who specialize in that particular skill.

Cross-Learning in the other stuff has always been a fun aside for me. The idea being to continue to expand the horizons of my personal training. Take Heaven 6 for example, if you look at it from the Kenpo perspective you will see five swords in there. I often relate the two in class because even though one is not Kenpo, Kenpo is in there. The stick drill makes for fun work and improves the flow of the empty handed technique. The hubid drills are perfect for getting people to flow better and I use them extensively. 

A little disagreement never hurt, in fact, it is good for everyone to see as many sides of the picture as possible and form their opinions from there. As always Mr.C, I've enjoyed the brain chow 

Peace,
Sandor

ps.. thanks for the chat earlier today, I will call again soon


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## tonbo (Apr 25, 2002)

Personally, I look at the martial arts as a banquet table, brimming over with all kinds of food of all types.

Some people are there for the steak, some for the salads, some want the pizza, and some, just the dessert.  We come to the table knowing already what we like (as martial artists), but free to sample some of everything.  What we like, we take some of, what we don't, we leave alone.  Sometimes, we may try something a little different, knowing that if we don' t like it, the "meat and taters" or the veggieburger (depending on your preference) is always there.

I play with a lot of different styles and forms, looking at what makes each what they are.  I don't claim to be an expert in any, Kenpo included.  However, Kenpo is my base, and quite complete, in my opinion.  Thus, when I sample from other styles or other systems, I always try to "Kenpoize" what I learned--how does it fit into what I know?  Yeah, I may learn a little Kali or Tai Chi, but I tend to return to asking, "So, how do the Kenpo principles I know work with this?".

All this thinking about a banquet has made me hungry....time to go have lunch...

Take what you want from the banquet, and come back for seconds....or thirds....or more..... 

Peace--


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## Kirk (Apr 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by tonbo _
> 
> *Personally, I look at the martial arts as a banquet table, brimming over with all kinds of food of all types.
> 
> ...




hehehe .. I like your analogy!  Although, you being a man from
Utah ... You opened yourself up for some humorous comments.

Not from me of course  

:rofl:


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## Ronin (Apr 25, 2002)

The Ronin is back for further debates!!!!!!!!!


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## Goldendragon7 (Apr 25, 2002)

for the warning!   lol


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## Rob_Broad (Apr 25, 2002)

I have found that with the adaptability of kenpo, and all the levels that are under the surface, that kenpo is a complete art.  There si grappling if you know how to look, the material you learn in the techniques about weapons disarms can be analyzed and you can see how to use some weapons.  With the stuff Doc Chap'el is doing you can see the chi as well as the joint manipulations and pressure points.  It is good to explore other arts because they may teach you what you didn't see in this art in the first time around.


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## GouRonin (Apr 26, 2002)

There is no COMPLETE art.

No matter what any Kenpoist tells you.


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## Goldendragon7 (Apr 26, 2002)

well, I can't say 'cause the KGB might take it wrong....... What a beautiful mind.......


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## Sandor (Apr 26, 2002)

Gallahad searched for the Holy Grail for a long time too.. no joy for him either. It wasn't until hundreds of years later that Monty Python finally found it... lost it and then Indian Jones found it but it was to late to help his old man....


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## Goldendragon7 (Apr 26, 2002)

The  Force is Strong with this one...........:asian:


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## GouRonin (Apr 26, 2002)

It's a well rounded art. That's for sure. But not complete.

That being said I think it has a great basis for teaching. It's set up great to build upon itself to learn. It has distinct learning levels. It uses the scientific basis to expand upon knowledge. (Although I think many people carry this too far and try to sound like rocket scientists to impress when they could have said what they wanted to say in one sentence rather than 12 but again, like many things wrong with Kenpo most are the fault of the people practicing it and not the art itself)

Most every art touts itself as the complete art. I think Kenpo comes close along with a few others.


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## Goldendragon7 (Apr 26, 2002)

It's  the best........... 

Bring on your stoloschina, I'll show you....... (now you're getting me worked up to be physical with you)!!!


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## Kirk (Apr 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> 
> *(Although I think many people carry this too far and try to sound like rocket scientists to impress when they could have said what they wanted to say in one sentence rather than 12 but again, like many things wrong with Kenpo most are the fault of the people practicing it and not the art itself)*



Well to some of us dipshits, being told the same thing 12 times,
yet different each time, is an effective way to learn.   Mongo
have thick skull.  Mongo only pawn, in game of life.


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## Goldendragon7 (Apr 26, 2002)

Hang in there!!:asian:


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## Roland (Apr 26, 2002)

Now, really, what should our definition of a 'complete art', or 'complete style' or even a 'complete system' be?
English can be so vauge & ambiguous sometimes, we might have to go to our dictionaries to really try to figure this one out.


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## Turner (Apr 26, 2002)

All martial arts are artificial. All were created by a human being and since all human beings (excluding me) are imperfect than logic states that all martial arts are imperfect. But, like the humans, some arts are better than others.

Why anyone would want the term 'complete' attached to their art is beyond me. If it is completed no growth is allowed. I studied Hapkido for a short period of time and upon learning joint manipulation I was thrilled at being able to have new 'toys' to tear apart to see how they worked and what else I could do with them. I approached my instructor and shared some of my concepts with him and He said "We don't allow that in Hapkido because students break away and create their own arts." In my opinion that is a complete system. The words "Dead End" have appeared on their road and they've gone as far as they can. Is this a good thing? Are the martial arts something that we want to have a conclusion or a concept of completion attached to?

I don't, but that's just me...


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## Goldendragon7 (Apr 26, 2002)

Then it's the Best thing goin at this time,
Better than I've seen yet,
Mega flexible,
Tailored to the individual,
Most practical that I've seen,
Most Logic,
Best all round system,
Ever growing for the better,
Super system....

There that's a good start!
:asian:


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## Michael Billings (Apr 26, 2002)

... we get to "Thump" too ... and play with sharp shiny objects.    
:samurai:

OK, so it's "sophisticated" thumping - meaning we get to hit 'em more than once.  Always an important thing to a Kenpo kinda guy.

Michael B.
:boxing:


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## kenpo3631 (Apr 26, 2002)

I heard Mr. Parker say that our Art is a "system" and from that system we "tailor" the art to an individuals "style". 

sys·tem 
Pronunciation: 'sis-t&m
Function: noun
Date: 1603

2 : an organized set of doctrines, ideas, or principles usually intended to explain the arrangement or working of a systematic whole <the Newtonian system of mechanics>

style 
Pronunciation: 'stI(&)l
Function: noun

b : a distinctive manner or custom of behaving or conducting oneself <the formal style of the court> <his style is abrasive>; also : a particular mode of living <in high style> c : a particular manner or technique by which something is done, created, or performed <a unique style of horseback riding> <the classical style of dance>

If we follow the definition as written, we can clearly see that EPAK is just that, a SYSTEM. it was Mr. Parker's way of explaining the motion he termed American Kenpo. The manner in which we execute or carry out the ideas, principles, and theories is what we call by definition "STYLE". Example, I saw a tape on Mr Steven (Sanders) Muhammed, he has a very rythmic style to his movments, to me almost like a boxers'.  To me the way you move, smoothe, constipated or what have you, while executing the motion is YOUR style. The system didn't change! The way each of us move is uniquely different from the next.

I heard Mr. Planas once say "The system will never change". I must say I believe that. The rules and principles don't change, they are the foundation of the art. We as Kenpoists tend to change or "break" the rules because we don't understand them therefore causing a our "stlye" to come under scrutiny when observed by the Kenpo seniors. 

I have by no means mastered the rules and principles nor am I an authority, however I can say this. I have improved my affectiveness triplefold now that I better understand the principles of American Kenpo.

We should endeavor ourselves to study these rule and principles, no matter who you are or what "system" you come from, they are universal and can only enhance your knowledge:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Apr 26, 2002)

Well stated Lance!!

:asian:


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## RCastillo (Apr 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *Then it's the Best thing goin at this time,
> Better than I've seen yet,
> ...



Oh Golden One, You 're too nice to me, you don't have to say all those great things about me, but Thanks just the same!:rofl:


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## GouRonin (Apr 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *Mega flexible*



I'll give you that.


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## Goldendragon7 (Apr 27, 2002)

And anything else I want too!
:asian:


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## GouRonin (Apr 27, 2002)

I see you forgot to put the _"special"_ helment on today...


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## WilliamTLear (Apr 27, 2002)

That's right it's a system... but incomplete? Come on!!! That's like saying the English language is not complete!

Mr. Parker created American Kenpo, and when he did it, he gave us the equivilant of alphabits of motion, words of motion, sentences of motion, and paragraphs of motion.

After you learn a language do you become capable of formulating sentences and paragraphs of your own? I should think so. Think back to when you were in grade school Gou...

You teacher undoubtedly started you off by teaching you the alphabet. Next, you were probably introduced to combining those letters into words so that you could recognize and pronounce those words when you were introduced to them. Then you were probably taught the definitions of those words so that you could inevitably comprehend what you were given to read...

Eventually, somewhere down the road, you had internalized the alphabet, mastered phonetics, memorized enough words, and learned enough grammer (the principles or rules of language), to formulate your own sentences and ideas.

The reality of applying language to any given situation doesn't entail learning one statement and using that very same statement as an answer to every question you ever encounter in life. It is the same with Kenpo, or for that matter, any martial art.

Mr. Parker gave us a language of motion... Your comprehension of it, is what makes it complete or incomplete for you!

My Opinion,
Billy Lear, 3rd Degree Brown Belt
United Kenpo Systems
www.uks-kenpo.com

:soapbox:


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## GouRonin (Apr 27, 2002)

The english language IS incomplete and much like Kenpo it is changing constantly. Much like Kenpo there is always the probability for addition to it and adaptation.

However you can't have it both ways. It is either changing and adapting or not. Some continue to faithfully follow the prescribed curriculum and some are innovating it. Personally I think that both should lead you to the same outcome.

I think that over all it touches on many areas and allows the practitioner to start self-exploration in the areas it touches in even if it doesn't delve fully into said areas. Also by using the same model you can make other arts much more understandable to yourself.

I might learn one or two words in french or spanish because my own language of english has words that were derived from those languages. This doesn't make my english complete. However it makes it complete for me within my own system. If you want to look at it from within your own system then yes, Kenpo makes itself a complete system for it's practitioners. If you look at it from an outside or world view, no, it's not.

I don't think any art is complete really. Some come close. I think Kenpo has the best of a lot of things. Some of the things it's missing I think just are not compatable with what many people think Kenpo should be so they resist it. Myself, I think it's adaptable and could easily take in these things and work them into its framework.

Huk and Mike Pick added the framework for knife stuff. There was always some but they are expanding it for example. As far as I am concerned, good Kenpo is always taking in and expanding it's base.

However because Kenpo gives itself an alphabet for it's practitioners to use does not make it complete except within it's own framework.

My 2 cents.


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## Zoran (Apr 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *
> If you just look at the curriculum from a limited perspective..... Yes, I supposed I would develop your understanding too.  If you look at What Ed Parker himself penned....... He did it for a reason.... for us to learn the other Categories as well.... Discover them if you will since he didn't have time to finish his work.  He certainly knew of the importance of these categories and we discussed it on many occasions.
> ...



I'm stepping back on this thread a bit. Now I understand both views and tend to agree with both Sander and Gou. I think some people may be taking it wrong.

I originally was going to make a statement, but there is enough of that already. So, I have a question for GD7. Besides, I'm a student first and am always looking for knowledge.

Since SGM Parker did not have time to finish his work, how do you propose we are to finish it for him? 

What process should we follow to expand on his teaching? (I did read your article on the web of knowledge)

SGM Parker studied other arts and broke things down logically as only he could. The system he left us showed us the way of doing this. Could we not learn, compare, and evaluate techniques from other systems and incorporate what was learned following the principles he left us? 

Reason I ask you is because you had spent a lot of time with SGM and wish to see your perspective.


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## GouRonin (Apr 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Zoran _*SGM Parker studied other arts and broke things down logically. The system he left us showed us the way of doing this.*



This is one of the greatest assets of Kenpo in my opinion.


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## WilliamTLear (Apr 27, 2002)

Gou, that is a statement that I can agree with... New things are being added to the eniglish language, and because of that it is a living language. I have a tendency to think that we are, by studying Kenpo, learnig a "living art".

But, I also believe that before you change something, or tailor something, you should have a firm understanding of the original idea first. Sure kenpo is an evolutionary art, and it will evolve... but this should take place over time. Look how long it took human beings to get to where we are from the cave man days of long ago...

I AM NOT AN ADVOCATE FOR TRADITIONALIZING MR. PARKER'S ART, but I do believe in learning everything he left us before making changes. (The student should internalize the ideal before moving into the what if phase.)

Now, I have heard arguements about how Kenpo doesn't teach weapons, and that if you wanna learn knife fighting... go to the Phillipino school down the street, or if you wanna learn stick fighting... go to the Escrima school over there. Why can't we, as Kenpoists, pick up some sticks/knives and prepetuate our art?! (We must become the change that we want to see!)

Every time someone revamps the system, or replaces the techniques (because they can't make them work, or because they feel that something is missing) they are reinventing the wheel, without advancing technically. 

I for one... whould like to see us, as martial artists, move away from building the stone wheel over and over again, and eventually move into an area where we are "all" riding around on "modern" all terrain tires!!!

 You got me Gou,
Billy Lear, 3rd Degree Brown Belt
United Kenpo Systems
www.uks-kenpo.com

P.S. If anybody thinks that Kenpo doesn't have good knife stuff they should definatley look into some of what Mr. Pick is doing. I was subjected to a little bit of it the other day by my instructor, Wes Idol, and have to say... *WOW!!!* :asian:


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## WilliamTLear (Apr 27, 2002)

The English language is complete as it relates to the alphabet, phonetics, and grammar, but you are right about one thing new words are added all the time. 

Mr. Parker's Kenpo is complete as it relates to the basics, the techniques, and the sets, but you are right... due to the re-arrangement principle and the inclusion of a Thesis Form for Black Belts... Something new is added to Kenpo all the time. This is what makes it a living art, and is what I meant by saying that Kenpo is a complete system (although I hope it never becomes a complete art).

Your Friend Always,
Billy Lear, 3rd Degree Brown Belt
United Kenpo Systems
www.uks-kenpo.com

P.S. Is anyone out there trying to add a twenty seveth letter to the english alphabet? If so I would be interested in what it looks like, what the sound is, and what some of the new words are that contain that letter.


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## arnisador (Apr 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by WilliamTLear _
> 
> *Mr. Parker's Kenpo is complete as it relates to the basics, the techniques, and the sets*



To play devil's advocate here, on what do you base this statement? Is it more than Mr. Parker's statement that this is so?


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## Klondike93 (Apr 27, 2002)

Where did Mr. Pick get the knife stuff from? Kenpo or some other source?

I have read there are knives and clubs in kenpo but haven't seen any of it yet. The only club stuff I have learned is Escrima stuff.

GD how about a little info on the kenpo side of weapons.


:asian:


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## WilliamTLear (Apr 27, 2002)

First to respond to Klondike 93...



> Where did Mr. Pick get the knife stuff from? Kenpo or some other source?



Mike Pick developed alot of knife stuff "with" Mr. Parker, and from my understanding, Mr. Pick trained in Kenpo exclusively. He didn't go to any other arts and borrow (from what I've been told).

Second, responding to arnisador...



> To play devil's advocate here, on what do you base this statement? Is it more than Mr. Parker's statement that this is so?



My opinion is based on my own personal expereince in the martial arts (which started well before Kenpo), and my interactions with many prominent Kenpo Instructors. You won't catch me blindly following anyone. I am one of those "Old School" kinda guys that have to hear it, see it, and feel it... to believe it.  

Take Care,
Billy Lear, 3rd Degree Brown Belt
United Kenpo Systems
www.uks-kenpo.com 
:asian:


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## arnisador (Apr 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by WilliamTLear _
> 
> *My opinion is based on my own personal expereince in the martial arts (which started well before Kenpo), and my interactions with many prominent Kenpo Instructors. You won't catch me blindly following anyone. *



I confess, it seems to me that a good number of kenpoists have an uncritical view of Mr. Parker, as you obviously surmised from my post.

It seems to me that kenpo is as complete as most forms of karate or kung fu, but not noticeably more so. But I have no direct experience of the art.


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## Turner (Apr 30, 2002)

> It seems to me that kenpo is as complete as most forms of karate or kung fu, but not noticeably more so. But I have no direct experience of the art.



I disagree. I've trained in Goju-Ryu Karate, Hapkido, Aikido, Shorinji Kempo, Ninjutsu, Soo Bahk Do Tang Soo Do, Kyokushin-Kai Karate and several others; Now perhaps all of those were the famed McDojo's <Tang Soo Do definately was, but the others I seriously doubt were>, but the difference in those arts and American Kenpo was like comparing Elementary School with College... 

The non-Kenpo arts I studied had a lot of the principles and concepts that Kenpo teaches, but they weren't analyzied to the same degree that Kenpo does. The non-Kenpo arts I studied was like taking a drivers-ed course where you learn how to drive the car safely from point A to point B. From what I've seen of Kenpo you not only learn how to drive from point A to point B, but you know how to build the car so that in case something breaks down between those two points you can rebuild the car to ensure that you get there.

But that's just me....


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## tonbo (Apr 30, 2002)

Turner, I have to say I pretty much agree.

My wife, a Tai Chi/Kung Fu practitioner and I have had endless discussions about this.  Neither one of us figures that we have a "complete" system, but one thing that she says repeatedly is that I am getting a better education (generally) in the arts than she is.  Almost all of the movements--techniques, forms, basics, you name it--are broken down, analyzed, and explained.  Rationale behind using each tool, when and where, and each target, again when and where, are gone over and over.  

I have studied a bit of Wado Ryu, Iaido, and played a little bit with what my wife has taught me of Tai Chi.  I am by no means an expert in any of the arts (doubt I ever will be !!), but the one very strong point I would say that Kenpo has is that it is sometimes on a level with science.  There is quite a bit of analyzation that has gone into it, and it is always being refined.

There is no doubt in my mind that, if you stick with an art long enough, you will get to see the "science" behind it, and will be exposed to a great deal of knowledge; however, I think that Kenpo just opens those doors a little earlier than most.  Some people still don't read the books, but the library doors are at least open..

Love that car analogy, btw.  

Peace--


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## arnisador (Apr 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by tonbo _
> 
> *There is no doubt in my mind that, if you stick with an art long enough, you will get to see the "science" behind it, and will be exposed to a great deal of knowledge; however, I think that Kenpo just opens those doors a little earlier than most.*



I agree that most arts likely are as well-designed but that the design principles are not as obvious.

This raises the question: Is it better to be told those, or find them out? In the short run the former is clearly better, but it isn't as obvious to me that the same is true in the long run--what you figure out on your own through hard work is often better learned than what's taught to you by others! Even if not--and I think I'd have to say that the Kenpo way sounds better than the Oriental mysticism way of "you'll eventually reach enlightenment"--I'm not sure it makes it more _complete_ in the usual sense of "complete" which as I understand means including punching, kicking, joint-locks, throws, groundfighting, weapons, etc. I do imagine it makes it more interesting to study, and easier to learn since you know the principles. (Modern Arnis also explains the principles early, though not in the detail that, I gather, Kenpo does.) I don't see it as a completeness issue, though it's something many other arts don't have at the beginning levels at least (tutoring in the secrets for advanced students does still happen, e.g. in the Japanese systems that still use the licensing system).


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## Nightingale (Apr 30, 2002)

I just read volume 1 of "Infinite Insights into Kenpo" last night.  Honestly, it didn't tell me a lot that I hadn't already discovered (besides the history of kenpo stuff).  I found a lot of stuff that I realized that I already knew, just from 13 years of doing it.  I just hadn't put names to stuff that just comes naturally after training for a few years.  

I think that for the most part, students need to be told the obvious stuff, like the principles behind a block/punch/strike, how to do it right (the right way for them) and why it works.  Once you know the how and the why, a lot of kenpo theory is open to you to discover on your own.  If I had read Mr. Parker's book as a white belt, I would have been like "huh WHAT?" and very confused.  However, with a lot of practice behind the theory, I was able to understand the theory much more easily.  A white belt would be thinking "why can't everyone just block and punch the same way?"  A more advanced belt realizes why not, and that the style needs to be adapted to the person.  This is knowledge that comes with time, and with the guidance of a good instructor.


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## Michael Billings (Apr 30, 2002)

OK, let me put it in perspective from someone who did not start in American Kenpo.  

I have been studying some type of Martial Arts since 1971, or earlier if you count Judo classes at the YMCA when I was really young.  

Shotokan and Tae Kwon Do both had good things to teach.  Power, focus, intensity for Shotokan (and just generally being tough at that time.)  Tae-Kwon-Do really helped my balance, flexibility and kicking (obviously.)  However, in the early 70's to mid 70's it was not a sport.  It was never looked at as a sport and was all about fighting back then.  I would venture to say that you could still find a few excellent Tae-Kwon-Do teachers around who just are not into Olympic sport fighting.

I got my 1st Black in Chinese Kenpo, yes it took forever, 7 years.  I thought I was pretty hot stuff too, given the weapons, number of techniques, and the fact that we had to do at least 5 tournaments between each Brown Belt (which you had for a year between each test.)  But it was always put in perspective for me, in no uncertain terms, when I watched my seniors in Chinese Kenpo (Brian Duffy, Gary Swan, or Sigung LaBounty), or Kung-Fu (Buk Sum Kong, Russell Shores, etc.) just totally move with precision and power.  It was awsome!

For years Sibok Tom Kelly was the NCKKA's senior advisor from the IKKA.  What he taught at camps was so different from what we did, it just seem foreign and difficult to pick up.  But awsome and impressive.  I think I was just too low ranking to appreciate it, and focused on my own version of Kenpo.

Then along came Dennis Conatser ... you know, there is one in every family, the Black Sheep, the bad seed, the instigator of (heaven forbid) - thinking.  I remember his taking what we were doing for crossing talon, and telling us if it was hard, we were doing it wrong.  Kenpo was easy, and it makes sense.  A 98 lb. woman should be able to execute it effectively, regardless of the opponent.  You know what they say, "Feeling is believing"?  Well he convinced my teacher and the majority of his senior students.  It was downhill from there.  Next thing I know we are being asked about switching over to Mr. Parker's Kenpo by Mr. Duffy (all new different techniques - and me already a black belt looking forward to double sabers, hook swords, Quan-do, and 3-sectional staff work.)  

We changed over to American Kenpo; Howard Silva moved to Austin for a year and I had the opportunity to train under him in advanced class, often being the only student there.  It was like night and day. It was no longer about what you did, but how you did it.  I was struggling with being a mechanic of motion - heck, I did not even understand how much I did not understand.  Then Mr. Duffy brought in Mr. Parker, Bob Liles, Mr. Downey, we started going to Huk Palanas' seminars. When I left Austin and started training with Tommy Burks, he was focused on how we hit hard and stay relaxed.  The list goes on and on.  

I ended up being retrained by 3rd Black to learn HOW TO MOVE> A relaxed, whipping type of power, much different from the big circular (& sometimes whipping power of Chinese Kenpo or Hung-Gar.)  I thought about relaxed dropping as I rotate and strike, along with rebounding, moving in and engaging a slight, or not so slight now, amount of body momentum in every strike.

I am still just a beginner in a lot of ways.  I am always humbled and grateful when I get to see my seniors and "play" with them.  I think they liked hitting me because in Texas we thought you were supposed to "thump" when you hit.  My body has gotten older, with a lot more injuries from 30+ years in the Art.  But it has been worth it to watch the evolution of Martial Arts in the United States in general, and specifically Kenpo.  The old Kenpo I did was the Kenpo of the 60's (a Tracy derivation) with a lot of Hung-Gar and Choy Li Fut added.  The Kenpo of the 80's was what I was exposed to from Mr. Conatser, Howard Silva, Tom Kelly, Bob Liles, Bryan Hawkins, Jeff Speakman, etc.  And of course, Mr. Parker.

The 90"s has been a fragmenting, frustrating, but interesting, time as the Seniors in Kenpo re-mold or tailor the system to fit their paradigms and carry on Mr. Parker's work.  Hopefully the Kenpo of the 2000's will continue to grow and retain the power and sophistication that was Mr. Parker.

Yours in Kenpo,
-Michael Billings


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## tonbo (Apr 30, 2002)

Thanks, Mr. Billings.  That was nice to read--always nice to see the "good stuff" from those that have been there.  Yes, the art has evolved, and hopefully will continue to do so in a productive manner.  :asian: 

Nightingale, I didn't read any Infinite Insights books at white, but I *did* try to read them at orange.  BLEAH.  It just didn't work out.  I didn't understand much of anything, but I thought that maybe by having them, I would learn.  Nope.

Fast forward to blue belt.  Tried reading them again, still didn't get all the deep meanings I wanted.  I wasn't "cooked" yet.  Back on the shelf we both went.

During my 3rd brown phase, I made sure I had the whole collection, and read through them all as critically as I could.  I learned quite a bit, and a good deal of it made sense.  I had names now for some of the concepts I had learned, and was happy to see some of the more detailed information in the system.  It was a cool revelation.

Since getting my Black, I have gone back and re-read, dissected, and tried to analyze the books even more, looking now for specific things in my techniques and forms.  Now, sometimes, I will run through a technique and put names to as much as I can:  "Okay, this move is marriage of gravity, this is fitting, this is contouring" and so on.  It helps a bit.  

Arnisador:  at our school, you get both of the methods you describe.  You are never really told at the lower ranks that "you will eventually understand", but there is a lot of subtle hints that there is more to the techniques than is being shown.  As you progress, and when the instructor thinks you are ready, he or she may show you one or two things during an aside, and then smile as you explore them.  You get enlightenment in small doses, and it works pretty well.  Most of the time, we *show*, we don't *tell*.....give 'em a snack, and help them find their way to the banquet table I mentioned before...hehe....

Kenpo is as "complete" or "incomplete" as any other system.  You will find as much depth in it as you are willing to swim through.


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## GouRonin (Apr 30, 2002)

Perhaps we should say that American Kenpo is one of the most well set up systems for study. Not that it is a complete system. But that it is one of the most well put together systems to study.

As Huk says, _"Anyone can fire a gun but the person who knows how and why the gun fires will be better off, just as the person who can fix the gun to make it fire when it is broken will be even better off."_

I paraphrased.


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## Turner (Apr 30, 2002)

> This raises the question: Is it better to be told those, or find them out?



I don't really think it matters.

Back to using the car analogy: If you go sit in a class for several years learning how to repair and rebuild the car you are going to have a lot of knowledge at your finger tips. No doubt you will know a great deal about how a car works and runs, but all of this is just theory to you until you start tinkering with the car and putting the information to use... and you will get down and dirty.

So which is better? To spend years and years just tinkering with the car (some martial arts will never tinker because the instructor looks down on it. Like I said earlier about my experience with hapkido) and learning how it works that way or to get the information in a class and then get down and dirty and put it to use. Both work. The second method allows for knowledge to be taken in quicker and more efficiently, but both come back to the same thing... you have to take the car apart in order to rebuild and repair it. You have to get intimate with your craft... tear things apart and be willing to let the grease to coat you, bang and scrape your knuckles and get utterly fithy. If the student doesn't want to get down and dirty, he will just be satisfied with having the theory... its all up to the student.
The instructor of the course can teach you all there is about lots of different types of cars, but he can't tell you the little details about your car. You know how hard you can drive it before it will break, you know your car so well that you can identify it as your own just by the sound that it makes in it operation because you have developed a level of intimacy with that vehicle. The instructor can't do that for you... only you can. There is no such thing as a bad teacher, just a bad student. It will be the student that determines how intimate he wants to get with his vehicle.


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## Nightingale (Apr 30, 2002)

as someone almost finished with a master's degree in education, I must object to your last message!  There is ABSOLUTELY a such thing as a bad teacher, both in schools and in martial arts.

I experienced a bad martial arts teacher when I was in college and taking TKD through the university. The school had hired a guy who ran a local school to come teach us twice a week in the afternoons...the man was arrogant, chauvinistic, and tried to demand respect from his students by scaring the heck out of them.  I'd had nine years of kenpo by then, knew the stuff he was showing us self defense wise wasn't nearly as effective as what I already knew, and one of my previous instructors was a 300 pounds of solid muscle retired marine drill sergeant with a fourth degree black in Kenpo, fast as lightning, and the scariest thing a 13 year old kid ever set eyes upon (and a wonderful teacher to boot!) so a first degree TKD black belt with an overinflated ego didn't scare me, but he managed to reduce some of the other students (male and female) to tears because they couldn't do anything right because they were too afraid to concentrate!  And these were COLLEGE STUDENTS!  Trust me, bad instructors are definitely out there.  A good student can learn amazing amounts from a good instructor, but even the best student can't learn from a poor teacher, because the teacher simply doesn't know how to demonstrate and explain things in a fashion that the student can comprehend.


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## Turner (Apr 30, 2002)

I agree, and I apologize.. There is a such thing as a bad teacher.... I've always viewed bad instruction or a lack of instruction as a gift because it means that I wind up 'inventing' the car instead of just learning how to build, fix and repair the car. So I don't believe that even the worst instructor could hinder my development.... And I can learn from Him/her too... learning what NOT to do is just as important as learning what TO do.


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## arnisador (Apr 30, 2002)

Thanks for the insights from all. I think I like how *GouRonin* put it.


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## Roland (Apr 30, 2002)

Just when you think nothing else can be said any better, he has to open his big mouth.
A well set up system! Perfect description!


Too bad he had to let the lobster in while the words were pouring fourth. lol
:barf: 

:flushed:


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## GouRonin (May 1, 2002)

I think it's just the flu, not food poisoning. I appear to have gotton off lucky. Sadly, the problem is that I will eat almost anything at times.

I am telling you guys. You should all listen to me. The only problem you'll have is deciding when I am serious and when I am not.

Personally I think Bad teachers are great. Why? Because when you find a good one you know it. When you have a bad teacher you also learn what not to do. You can learn a lot from a bad teacher. The only fault would be in staying too long with that teacher. It's not a crime to constantly seek out better instruction. Good teachers will support you in doing so.

When I am at Roland's school I try to be a good teacher when I am asked. I think that I am there for a reason. They are learning a serious art for serious purposes but you can have fun doing so. I listen to what the people I work with tell me very seriously. I try to take as much as they say in. I try to give as much as they can handle as well as satisfy the needs of the person who owns the school.

I am not some ego maniac on a mission. I do what is asked of my by the owner and try to give the students what they can use. At the end of the day it is the owner's name on the tax forms and the Student is the one who has paid in time and cash. My agenda is p*ss poor compared to that. I do what I want for me but for others I try to be like Jaybacca. Just a guy in the fog trying to help people find the direction they want to go in. Am I a good teacher? I dunno, but they have not kicked me out yet. I go learn things to try and bring back and share.

I look at it this way. I am sharing time and knowledge with them. I am not teaching. Teaching for me means that I just give them something. If I share something, people are more apt to keep it longer as it takes on more value.


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## Roland (May 1, 2002)

Gou just has a great personality.
Heck, he could tell the worst jokes, ones that are so un-PC that even Ozzy would be disgusted by them, but everyone, the Pope and Mother Theresa included, would still laugh, AND be willing to learn something from him.
He is a good friend, somethimes too good for his own good, treats everyone well, even real jerks, and you always know he is there for you, even if it is just to listen.
Other students like him, because they know they can trust him!

I think most of you here know that already!

 


(PS: glad you are feeling better.)


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## Goldendragon7 (May 3, 2002)

Complete may  not be the best word but what ever it is ....... this system allows for more of everything in every catagory than any other system I know of.

:asian:


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## GouRonin (May 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Roland _
> *Gou just has a great personality.
> Heck, he could tell the worst jokes, ones that are so un-PC that even Ozzy would be disgusted by them, but everyone, the Pope and Mother Theresa included, would still laugh, AND be willing to learn something from him.
> He is a good friend, somethimes too good for his own good, treats everyone well, even real jerks, and you always know he is there for you, even if it is just to listen.
> ...



Holy patootie on a stick! I think the jig is up and my sterling rep has been shot to the pooper! Mental Note to self: Stop being so nice. People are starting to catch on!

     

Thanx for the wishes. I think it was a 24 hour flu. At one point there I could crap through screen door at 40 feet and not touch screen.
:shrug:


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## WilliamTLear (May 3, 2002)

I don't know about you, but the idea of seeing Gou hang his ***-Cannon out the garage door and shoot for the screen door on the back of his house is... well... *WRONG*.

Mental Note: Don't eat what Gou eats!!! It could kill someone!!! Even an innocent spectator.

Take Care,
Billy Lear
United Kenpo Systems
www.geocities.com/williamtlear


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## Klondike93 (May 3, 2002)

That is one nasty mental image there Gou, whoa.

But (pardon the pun) Billy with the A$$-Cannon, that was funny :rofl: :rofl: 


:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (May 4, 2002)

Way .......... way more info than I needed!!!!!!!!!

:barf:


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## Seig (May 4, 2002)

Let's see him claiming to be so pretty while aiming that cannon!
:roflmao:


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## Goldendragon7 (May 4, 2002)

good one........ :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


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## tunetigress (May 5, 2002)

The A$$-Cannon eh???   Bet ya got that one in your arsenal too, dontcha  GD????        :shock: :shock:


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## Goldendragon7 (May 5, 2002)

But............... nothing like Jaybacca's!   Whewwwwwwwwwww
:moon: :rofl:


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## tunetigress (May 5, 2002)

Oh GD, I am sooooo excited!  Will ya train me in that weapon too, huh???   Will ya pleeeeeze?????    I will practice every day, I promise!  I absolutely LOVE weapons as you know, and I must say that I believe that I am genetically ideally suited to that particular weapon, and have already developed a certain level of skill in the basic technique.  I am also looking forward to learning a defense for that weapon.  At what Belt level do we actually get to put it to use tho, or is it a weapon reserved strictly for a certain, er,  level of Black Belt???  LMA-CO     :rockets:


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## Goldendragon7 (May 5, 2002)

We have a tiger by the tail..... tale.... hmmmmmm problems! 

I'll have to refer you to the master on this one...... Gou!~

sheesh


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## Seig (May 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by tunetigress _
> 
> *Oh GD, I am sooooo excited!  Will ya train me in that weapon too, huh???   Will ya pleeeeeze?????    I will practice every day, I promise!  I absolutely LOVE weapons as you know, and I must say that I believe that I am genetically ideally suited to that particular weapon, and have already developed a certain level of skill in the basic technique.  I am also looking forward to learning a defense for that weapon.  At what Belt level do we actually get to put it to use tho, or is it a weapon reserved strictly for a certain, er,  level of Black Belt???  LMA-CO     :rockets: *


Execute a right extended hand sword, checking with the left hand while simulataneously stepping back to four o'clcok with the right foot.
Bring your right hand up in the mirror position while doing a left rear cross over.
Use a crab like pinch to the bridge of your nose while doing a reverse chicken kick.
Wipe your eyes and cover out twice.


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## GouRonin (May 5, 2002)

When you are ready @sshopper the teacher will appear...

:shrug:


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## Goldendragon7 (May 5, 2002)

roflmao


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## Seig (May 6, 2002)

He's just pissed because I know the *Squeezing the Nose* defense technique, if he's not careful I will reveal *Fanning Swords*


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## tunetigress (May 6, 2002)

Seig,  now I understand how you add insult to injury!!
1.  Deflate the loaded @ss-cannon.
2.  Penetrate the olfactoy defenses of your opponents.
3.  Annihilate opponents.  (or at least cause them to run away)

After which I bet you use Fanning Swords, or is that just the method used  to wave goodbye????     :rofl: :rofl:


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## Goldendragon7 (May 6, 2002)

you all mingle DNA ?


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## Seig (May 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *you all mingle DNA ? *


You will notice, sir, I am in WV.  Mingled DNA is a prerequisite of residing here.


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## Goldendragon7 (May 6, 2002)

What I was afraid of..   .....!


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## Klondike93 (May 6, 2002)

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: 



:asian:


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## Michael Billings (May 6, 2002)

... please end this string soon ... or it will be the end of me.  :wah: 

Somewhere I lost my nose plugs, must have thought they were earplugs for shooting ... we just won't say shooting what???

-MB


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## Sigung86 (May 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> 
> *
> Execute a right extended hand sword, checking with the left hand while simulataneously stepping back to four o'clcok with the right foot.
> ...




Just practiced this move on five late students.  Seemed to have this affect on them:







:redeme: 

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: 

Dan


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## arnisador (May 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *Complete may  not be the best word but what ever it is ....... this system allows for more of everything in every catagory than any other system I know of.*



How do you mean "allows for"? Certainly there are specific categories that other arts _have_ more of, e.g. groundfighting and BJJ?


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## Goldendragon7 (May 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _*
> 
> How do you mean "allows for"? Certainly there are specific categories that other arts have more of, e.g. groundfighting and BJJ? *


What I was referring to when I said  "allows for" was the Kenpo Allows more flexibility of variable expansion in any category or area then any other Art I know. ....

If ground fighting is the category .... then Kenpo has a place for it within the system to insert and expand further this thought...

Whatever the category..... weapons, restraints, kicking, grappling, etc etc..... we have a spot for it within the system easily.

That's what I mean......

:asian:


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