# Wing Chun against Brazilian Jiu Jitsu



## WingChunEnthusiast (Apr 26, 2016)

When I mean BBJ, I don't only mean when you are already on the floor defending yourself, I also mean when the enemy charges at your waist to slam you against the ground. I just want to know what your thought is on BBJ grappling, not just about preventing grappling. Another move is being charged at the waist or your waist is already held onto.
If Wing Chun doesn't have a defense for BBJ, it's about time to start developing one.


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## WingChunEnthusiast (Apr 26, 2016)

Also, I am new to WC. I just want to know what ideas you guys have


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## KPM (Apr 26, 2016)

Pretty much the same defense you would use against as wrestling double leg takedown.  You try to get off the line with your footwork, you extend a Gum Sau to the back of the head if he is charging in low and try to push him off the line so he can't get ahold of you.  This can be followed quickly by a rising knee strike or a strike to the head. If he is more upright, then this becomes a Pak Sau or Palm to the face to turn his head and stop his charge.  If he gets ahold of you, you throw your feet back and your torso forward into a Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma with lots of forward pressure.  This is pretty much the equivalent of a "standing sprawl" and helps to keep you from going over backwards.


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 26, 2016)

WingChunEnthusiast said:


> When I mean BBJ, I don't only mean when you are already on the floor defending yourself, I also mean when the enemy charges at your waist to slam you against the ground. I just want to know what your thought is on BBJ grappling, not just about preventing grappling. Another move is being charged at the waist or your waist is already held onto.
> If Wing Chun doesn't have a defense for BBJ, it's about time to start developing one.


Random thoughts:


It's BJJ, not BBJ
Charging at your waist isn't the only approach to takedowns in BJJ. The takedowns in BJJ are basically the same as those in wrestling, Judo, and Sombo. The only difference is that BJJ practitioners tend not to be as practiced with takedowns as practitioners of those other arts.
Using your arms as a barrier is your first defense against clinching. Note that this will require changing levels if your opponent drops down to shoot for the waist. Cutting an angle at the same time helps.
If the opponent does get under your arms and reaches your legs, then a sprawl is your next line of defense, as KPM notes.
If you do get taken down, then you are best off consulting with a grappling specialist for the best approach to protecting yourself and getting back to your feet. The techniques for doing this do not violate Wing Chun principles, but my observation is that WC instructors who try to figure them out from scratch tend to do a poor job of it.
WC practitioners don't really need to have a game plan for dealing with an opponent who does BJJ unless they are planning on doing challenge bouts or MMA. The odds of being mugged by a BJJ expert are relatively small.


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## wckf92 (Apr 26, 2016)

1) Hit/strike/kick/punch/gouge him any way you can, with the intention of either A) breaking something, or B) keeping him away from you
2) rinse and repeat  

Oh, and it's BJJ...not BBJ


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## oaktree (Apr 26, 2016)

WingChunEnthusiast said:


> When I mean BBJ, I don't only mean when you are already on the floor defending yourself, I also mean when the enemy charges at your waist to slam you against the ground. I just want to know what your thought is on BBJ grappling, not just about preventing grappling. Another move is being charged at the waist or your waist is already held onto.
> If Wing Chun doesn't have a defense for BBJ, it's about time to start developing one.


What I think you are implying is a shoot, not everyone who shoots in goes to the waist sometimes it's for a single or double leg take down which could be from heel to back of legs. Some shoots could be to close the gap and result in a clinch or and a set up for a throw. In my opinion, if you want to deal with a grapple learn how to grapple as Tony suggested and bring the game back up to your expertise area. Know how to take a fall if taken down, how to have a basic understanding of guard positions, escapes, reversals.


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## Phobius (Apr 26, 2016)

Problem in WC is you can't train in how to fight against a grappler without having a grappler present. So to train in it from WC perspective you need to learn grappling in my view.


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 26, 2016)

Phobius said:


> Problem in WC is you can't train in how to fight against a grappler without having a grappler present. So to train in it from WC perspective you need to learn grappling in my view.



You don't know any grapplers you can spar with? I find that's an excellent way to learn. I don't necessarily need to learn BJJ to defend against it. I can experiment with a BJJ practitioner to see what works and what doesn't.
Not saying that training in BJJ wouldn't also work, I'm just saying I think empiric evidence would also be an option.


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## Phobius (Apr 26, 2016)

True but I want to find out weaknesses and experiment with them. Where I live most BJJ are afraid of what shame there would be to fall taking down a Kung Fu practitioner. Prestige,  macho culture or simply not interested in doing non sports BJJ. Most I do not know and would have to train BJJ in order to get to know well enough. Just the culture of the people where I live. Besides or maybe because it is a good excuse for me to learn grappling itself which I want to do.


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## Paul_D (Apr 26, 2016)

WingChunEnthusiast said:


> If Wing Chun doesn't have a defense for BBJ, it's about time to start developing one.


Why?

Presumably you ae not refering to sporting contests as you refer to the "enemy".  Do you live in a city where BJJ practitioners roam the streets starting street fights with WC students?  What are the circumstances which are regulalrly occuring that as a WC student you need to defend yourself against the BJJ enemy?


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## MAfreak (Apr 26, 2016)

i think its good that the op, who wants to be prepared for all theoretically possible situations, asks
what "his" system has to offer for it. but i agree with the others. for defending against grapplers, train with grapplers. everything else is just theory and won't help much. the best will always be to mix everything up, for self defense as well as for hybrid sports.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 26, 2016)

WingChunEnthusiast said:


> If Wing Chun doesn't have a defense for BBJ, it's about time to start developing one.


If your opponent's hands can't touch your body, he can't take you down. In order to do so, you can use your

- footwork to move out of your opponent's attacking path, or
- arms to deflect your opponent's arms and avoid "clinch".

Both approaches may be too conservative of thinking. IMO, the best way is to "cross train" a grappling art and be good at it. Try to find a wrestling partner and wrestle 15 rounds daily. Besides you will have a lot of fun, you will develop your grappling skill in 3 years.


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## Paul_D (Apr 26, 2016)

MAfreak said:


> for self defense



This is my point.  You are both wrongly assuming that self defence will bear any resemblence to what happens inside the dojo, and that you wil be "fighting" a skilled & trained martial artist.  Do people regularly get into street brawls with other trained martial artist, it happens yes, but martial artists (At least the ones I know) are not in the habit of brawing in the street.

Do people think criminals spend time training in martial arts?  They don’t "fight", in fact a "fight" is the last thing they want, as such becoming an "all round martial artist" is not necessary for dealing with career criminals.   In The Complete Book Of Urban Combatives, Lee Morrison says "The physical side of the equation is pretty simple:  just develop two or three effective strikes that can be executed hard and that work well."

You only need to become an "all round martial artist" for the purposes of self defence if you a) are martial artist who wronly assumes you will be gettign into street "fights" with other skilled & trained martial artsist, or or b) you do not understand the realities of criminal violence, or the "rituals of violent" used by professional criminals.


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## MAfreak (Apr 26, 2016)

everyone can fall down. anyway often "street fights" end up in something similar to wrestling or jj, so thats why you should train it to be better prepared. not sure why you don't understand that.


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## WingChunEnthusiast (Apr 26, 2016)

Paul_D said:


> This is my point.  You are both wrongly assuming that self defence will bear any resemblence to what happens inside the dojo, and that you wil be "fighting" a skilled & trained martial artist.  Do people regularly get into street brawls with other trained martial artist, it happens yes, but martial artists (At least the ones I know) are not in the habit of brawing in the street.
> 
> Do people think criminals spend time training in martial arts?  They don’t "fight", in fact a "fight" is the last thing they want, as such becoming an "all round martial artist" is not necessary for dealing with career criminals.   In The Complete Book Of Urban Combatives, Lee Morrison says "The physical side of the equation is pretty simple:  just develop two or three effective strikes that can be executed hard and that work well."
> 
> You only need to become an "all round martial artist" for the purposes of self defence if you a) are martial artist who wronly assumes you will be gettign into street "fights" with other skilled & trained martial artsist, or or b) you do not understand the realities of criminal violence, or the "rituals of violent" used by professional criminals.



I have a different mindset when walking the streets. It is to bring a gun or a knife. Martial arts is a secondary. But there are too many factors when it comes to street brawls. But the idea that learning martial arts for the purpose of self-defense is absurd. There should be more to martial arts that just self defense. But I am not after self defense.

I am after WC developing it's own defense and offense against BJJ, and I want to throw this idea out there to a person who is able to practice with a BJJ practitioner. Why should WC do that in the first place? I do it for the satisfaction of knowing that WC would feel a little more advance than it's predecessor, achieving a more evolved state. You should feel the need for any kind of improvement instead of deeming it as a futile task. 

All I want to know is your thoughts about WC against BJJ.


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## Tez3 (Apr 26, 2016)

WingChunEnthusiast said:


> Also, I am new to WC





WingChunEnthusiast said:


> I am after WC developing it's own defense and offense against BJJ, and I want to throw this idea out there to a person who is able to practice with a BJJ practitioner. Why should WC do that in the first place? I do it for the satisfaction of knowing that WC would feel a little more advance than it's predecessor, achieving a more evolved state. You should feel the need for any kind of improvement instead of deeming it as a futile task.





These two posts don't agree with each other do they? On one hand you are saying you are new to WC on the other you are speaking as if you were an expert in WC and are criticising it. Please explain.


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## WingChunEnthusiast (Apr 26, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> These two posts don't agree with each other do they? On one hand you are saying you are new to WC on the other you are speaking as if you were an expert in WC and are criticising it. Please explain.



I believe I know nothing about about WC since I've been training and studying WC for a only few months now, and I'm only applying what I've currently learned about WC. I also feel as if 3-4 years of WC is not close enough to be termed as an expert.


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## Phobius (Apr 26, 2016)

WingChunEnthusiast said:


> I believe I know nothing about about WC since I've been training and studying WC for a only few months now, and I'm only applying what I've currently learned about WC. I also feel as if 3-4 years of WC is not close enough to be termed as an expert.



You should consider one point though, there is nothing preventing learning multiple systems.

One should when 'mastering' WC be able to find what other systems can be incorporated into it to perfect not the system but the fighter himself. But to think you can build something new to prevent grappling, without learning the hundred and more years of development that has gone into the ground game.

And practising given ideas against a BJJ master would not offer good foundation because this is where we are missing the second point. You will not beat someone that trains several years more than you do on a given scenario, by training a more advanced technique. Once an art is mastered you will understand it is in the simple techniques where you can outplay your opponents.

So as a new student, while you may not see it now.. SLT is so much more than just the basic starting form. It is the form where you will unlock true potential once you know all the rest. Not bad for a little idea.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 26, 2016)

The WC sticky hands is a nice bridge to cross over to the grappling art. For example, in the following picture, both persons can

- rotate his/her right arm and obtain an under hook, or waist wrap.
- comb his/her hair with left arm and obtain an over hook, arm wrap, or head lock.
- pull down opponent's left arm, raise up opponent's left arm, strike right shoulder on opponent's chest, move in, and ...
- ...

All those training are ready to be trained in your WC sticky hands drill. It's up to you whether you want to include those training or not.


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## drop bear (Apr 26, 2016)

Which bjj are we talking about? Random student or someone at metomoris level? 

Bjj is good because it has access to world class martial artists.

And there is a trickle down effect.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 27, 2016)

> If Wing Chun doesn't have a defense for BBJ, it's about time to start developing one.


Why? What about WC makes it imperative that they can defend specifically against BJJ?



WingChunEnthusiast said:


> I have a different mindset when walking the streets. It is to bring a gun or a knife. Martial arts is a secondary. But there are too many factors when it comes to street brawls. But the idea that learning martial arts for the purpose of self-defense is absurd. There should be more to martial arts that just self defense. But I am not after self defense.


What if you cant get out your knife or gun in time? 
Why is learning it for self-defense absurd? 
What are you after? Fitness, competition, or something else?



> I am after WC developing it's own defense and offense against BJJ, and I want to throw this idea out there to a person who is able to practice with a BJJ practitioner. Why should WC do that in the first place? I do it for the satisfaction of knowing that WC would feel a little more advance than it's predecessor, achieving a more evolved state. You should feel the need for any kind of improvement instead of deeming it as a futile task.


From another perspective, you are interested in turning WC from something that focuses on very specific things, into a 'jack of all trades master of none' style. If you do it badly, you may also put it in a 'devolved' state..the notion that arts improve linearly is not necessarily correct.It is most likely a job for your sifu's sifu to decide whether or not to 'evolve' WC, not your job.



> All I want to know is your thoughts about WC against BJJ.


If they are starting standing up...whoever is the better practitioner at their given art. If they for some reason start on the ground, most likely the BJJ practitioner.


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## Tez3 (Apr 27, 2016)

WingChunEnthusiast said:


> I believe I know nothing about about WC since I've been training and studying WC for a only few months now, and I'm only applying what I've currently learned about WC. I also feel as if 3-4 years of WC is not close enough to be termed as an expert.



Still puzzled, you are a complete beginner which is fine but surely you need to ask your instructor these questions. You've not even got past the very very basics of your style yet so you have no idea whether it's got defences against BJJ or anything else, I think you may have got a little ahead of yourself in your enthusiasm, not a bad thing but I think you need to be a be more patient and learn what WC can give you before thinking *it* has to change.


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## mograph (Apr 27, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> ... but I think you need to be a be more patient and learn what WC can give you before thinking *it* has to change.


Yes. In order to think that something has to change from state _A_ to state _B_, or at least from state _A_ to state _not-A,_ we have to know what state _A_ is first.


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## WingChunEnthusiast (Apr 28, 2016)

Sorry, I went ahead of my self by thinking I can change WC overnight when I am suppose to continue practicing basics, which are fundamental. I still need to practice SLT and other forms, as suggested in later posts of this forum.


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## Buka (Apr 28, 2016)

WingChunEnthusiast said:


> I have a different mindset when walking the streets. It is to bring a gun or a knife. Martial arts is a secondary. But there are too many factors when it comes to street brawls. But the idea that learning martial arts for the purpose of self-defense is absurd. There should be more to martial arts that just self defense. But I am not after self defense.



Welcome to Martialtalk, bro, hope you enjoy it here. Love your avatar by the way, I'm a dog guy myself.

I think "absurd" might be too strong a word for the above. And, yeah, there's more to Martial Arts than any one concept. 

I don't understand why you're not after self defense. Why would you care about how Wing Chun applies to BJJ?


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## anerlich (Jun 19, 2016)

WingChunEnthusiast said:


> If Wing Chun doesn't have a defense for BBJ, it's about time to start developing one.



Wing Chun and BJJ have very different strategies and methods. Wing Chun is primarily a striking art used for standup fighting and defense. BJJ's strategy is to put you on the ground, achieve a position of control, and then apply a submission hold (if you don't submit, something will get broken) or choke you out.

Both arts have some overlap with the other, but very little IMO. I learned some WC groundfighting before I took up BJJ, but its purpose was to keep the opponent away, knock him over as well, or incapacitate him long enough to regain your feet. No real concept of continuing or finishing a fight with both of you on the ground.

The concept of trying to adapt an art primarily designed for standup striking to defend against a grappling art is inherently flawed. Grapplers will always develop better defences to grappling attacks, because they understand the attacks better and are dealing with them ALL the time (all the time in the gym, anyway). There may be a very few exceptions to this, which I have yet to see, but the probabilities are overwhelmingly against this.

Wing Chun's forte is in a medium to close range striking distance, where chi sao is usually practiced. Grapplers prefer to work from a clinch range where there is little or no space between you. There are some exceptions to these "rules", but I think they hold up on a macro level.

A decent grappler can position his body in the clinch so that striking him effectively is very difficult. A Wing Chun guy or other striking purist will need to stop him before he can get in close. Your window of opportunity is not wide, especially if the grappler has half decent striking defence. If he can eat up the space between you and get a decent upper body or leg control on you, if you have no grappling experience he is almost certainly going to take you down.

Once you are there, if you have no groundfighting experience you will be in trouble. BJJ knows all the usual reactions of people in such situations, including strikes, eye gouges, throat and testicle grabs, etc. and has counters to them. You normally pick these up in the first few months of BJJ. If you haven't done any ground grappling, you will have little idea of what movements are safe or unsafe in a particular position, and you are going to lose. And most neophytes cant distinguish the mount from the guard - well maybe watching UFC videos, but not while on the ground wrestling with someone trying to submit them.

Being controlled on the bottom on the ground is NOT a good place to escalate a grappling situation into a fist fight or maiming contest. The other guy is in a MUCH better position to hit, claw, eye gouge, fishhook, etc. There is no law that says grapplers can't hit you or that they can't learn to hit you competently.

I started Wing Chun in 1989 and became an instructor. My instructor and I both took up BJJ in 1998 while continuing to practise Wing Chun. I was awarded a black belt in BJJ in 2013. One of Jim Fung's WC inheritors, Dave O'Donnell, got his black belt on the same night at the same club.

I guess you can figure out my take on the best way to learn to deal with grapplers.


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## anerlich (Jun 19, 2016)

WingChunEnthusiast said:


> I have a different mindset when walking the streets. It is to bring a gun or a knife. Martial arts is a secondary. But there are too many factors when it comes to street brawls. But the idea that learning martial arts for the purpose of self-defense is absurd. There should be more to martial arts that just self defense. But I am not after self defense.



I disagree. Many, perhaps most, self defense situations outside a war zone do not legally justify you producing or using weapons.

If you pull out a knife or a gun on someone who is arguing with you or pushing you in a nightclub line, someone yelling at your kid, etc. you are pretty much straight into excessive force from a legal perspective. Arguably, you have then made it justifiable for the other person to pull out their own lethal weapon. Congratulations on turning a potential fist fight into a knife or gun fight.

If the cops get involved, even if you don't use the weapon, you'll almost certainly be arrested and probably spend at best a short time in the lockup. You'll probably have to attend court as well. Worst case, and you have to use the weapon, you might be going to jail for quite a while. Or to the hospital or an early grave.

I'm not saying that carrying a weapon and learning to use it effectively should a situation justify it (and the law in your jurisdiction permit it) isn't a good option. But I wouldn't want it as my only option. There is a spectrum of justifiable levels of violence related to self defence. You might disagree. Tell it to the judge.

It isn't quite clear exactly what you are after, if not self defense against a BJJ fighter.


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## Charlemagne (Jun 19, 2016)

I'm new here, so I apologize if I come across like a jerk, but I am surprised to see that this conversation is still being had.  We are now 23 years following UFC 1, and this has been proven many times over. 

If all one is interested in Martial Arts for is self development, fitness, etc. then this is less of an issue.  However, if one is interested in martial arts for the purpose of self-defense, and they do not compute the ground, striking, and weapons, then I believe they are deluding themselves.  MMA is incredibly popular, and the average fan can pick up a few chokes, an armbar, and can figure out the basics of mount, guard, and the ground and pound game without too much trouble.  If they are willing to practice a bit with each other, then can develop them enough to be a threat to someone with no ground game at all.


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## Charlemagne (Jun 19, 2016)

Paul_D said:


> Do people think criminals spend time training in martial arts?  They don’t "fight", in fact a "fight" is the last thing they want, as such becoming an "all round martial artist" is not necessary for dealing with career criminals.   In The Complete Book Of Urban Combatives, Lee Morrison says "The physical side of the equation is pretty simple:  just develop two or three effective strikes that can be executed hard and that work well."
> 
> You only need to become an "all round martial artist" for the purposes of self defence if you a) are martial artist who wronly assumes you will be gettign into street "fights" with other skilled & trained martial artsist, or or b) you do not understand the realities of criminal violence, or the "rituals of violent" used by professional criminals.



You are correct in that trained martial artists are rarely go around looking for fights, but career criminals fight all the time.  A huge part of the gang culture is fighting, and most gang-bangers in their late teens will have had many real fights.  Your idiot punk out looking to rob someone of their wallet might not, but plenty of others will, to include "former high school wrestler guy", who knows enough of the ground to make your life miserable if he chooses to do so. 

As for the rest, I agree to a point with Mr. Morrison.  Good fundamentals will take you a long way.  I would expand his recommendations to include 1's and 2's with a weapon, basic knife defense, a couple of solid chokes, a couple of solid arm locks, how to pull guard, and how to keep from getting head smashed in if someone gets a mount position on you.  Of course, I would want to know much more than that, but those things would be my bare minimum.


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## drop bear (Jun 19, 2016)

Here is s drill for you.  It involves three people.

One hold the pads. One hits  the pads and one does takedowns.

So you do about three minutes of striking as hard as you can while that third person randomly shoots for a double legleg.  Then you just contest that until you have separated or been taken down.


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## Paul_D (Jun 21, 2016)

Charlemagne said:


> You are correct in that trained martial artists are rarely go around looking for fights, but career criminals fight all the time.  A huge part of the gang culture is fighting, and most gang-bangers in their late teens will have had many real fights.  Your idiot punk out looking to rob someone of their wallet might not, but plenty of others will, to include "former high school wrestler guy", who knows enough of the ground to make your life miserable if he chooses to do so.


True, but career criminals generally don't invest 10 years of their life getting good at BJJ, and the thread is about WC needing to have a defence against BJJ.


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## Charlemagne (Jun 21, 2016)

Paul_D said:


> True, but career criminals generally don't invest 10 years of their life getting good at BJJ, and the thread is about WC needing to have a defence against BJJ.



That is not what I was responding to. I was responding to your claim that the last thing career criminals want is a fight, and therefore there is little need to become an all-around martial artist for the purpose of self-defense.  I believe that statement is false, and I responded in kind.


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## Hanzou (Jun 21, 2016)

Paul_D said:


> True, but career criminals generally don't invest 10 years of their life getting good at BJJ, and the thread is about WC needing to have a defence against BJJ.



Yeah, but depending on where you live, you do have a large population of 18-35 year old males who love wrestling (fake and real), football, and MMA, and practice at least one of those sports in their formative years. Those males can easily fall off the track and attack people. Further, you have access to numerous grappling techniques on youtube that are fairly easy to pick up by anyone with a bit of grappling experience, aggression, and free time. A 20 year old who took wrestling in secondary school can pick up a takedown, to mount, to ground & pound, to rear naked choke with little trouble.


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## Charlemagne (Jun 21, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> Yeah, but depending on where you live, you do have a large population of 18-35 year old males who love wrestling (fake and real), football, and MMA, and practice at least one of those sports in their formative years. Those males can easily fall off the track and attack people. Further, you have access to numerous grappling techniques on youtube that are fairly easy to pick up by anyone with a bit of grappling experience, aggression, and free time. A 20 year old who took wrestling in secondary school can pick up a takedown, to mount, to ground & pound, to rear naked choke with little trouble.



Exactly right.


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## WingChunEnthusiast (Jul 7, 2016)

It's been a while since I came to this website. I know now that I am wrong to be making arguments like "BJJ vs Wing Chun" without understanding the basics and fundamentals of WC. This thread was a mistake from the very beginning because I didn't learn enough about WC. I now have slightly better questions to ask about WC since time has passed.

   Despite having to make this thread by mistake, I have took into consideration on what you've guys have been telling me, and for that I thank you all.

    I am also still perfecting Sil Lim Tao.


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