# Is Sanshou Considered Kung-Fu



## monster123 (May 27, 2006)

Anyone think Sanshou is considered Kung-Fu, Not many people practice Sanshou in the U.S., so I included a clip.Do Kung-fu practioners think this is Kung-Fu? Even if the punches and kicks look no different than kickboxing, if they are generated by the same fundamental body mechanics then I would say it is considered Kung-Fu. Would anyone consider Cung Le a Kung-Fu artist? 

The throws are impressive, especially the ones where they can throw or sweep without going to the ground.

Any Sanshou practioners out there that can answer this question?

2003 Sanshou World Cup Highlight
http://youtube.com/watch?v=TcnT3Mx-ZTU&search=sanshou
Cung Le MMA deput
http://youtube.com/watch?v=I4QdFcWOwOs&search=sanshou


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## TaiChiTJ (May 28, 2006)

It's not what most people think of when they hear the term "Kung Fu", but yes, I think of it as Kung Fu. Maybe "Applied Kung Fu", or something like that. 

One thing I am learning from the Plum Publications site is that China has everything. Traditional form based arts, both internal and external, non traditional arts like I Chuan (also called Da Cheng Chuan), and formless arts where you just practice short groups of attack and defense.

What is called "San Shou" was largely gotten from an art called TzuRan Men or "The Natural Style" promoted by Wan LaiSheng's Kung Fu. He was an awesome fighter in China in the 30'S.

http://www.plumpub.com/sales/vcd3/coll_WanLaiSheng.htm


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## Xue Sheng (May 28, 2006)

Yes it is Kung fu, it is also called Sanda.

And many Chinese styles have what they call sanshou in them but it is also a style in and of itself.

It is newer than many styles and it is the style of kung fu currently taught to and practiced by the Chinese police and military.

Sanda in and of itself also has a version for ring fighting as well. 

Sanshou/Sanda as a style includes kicking, punching, joint locking take downs and using various parts of you body to hit and hit very very hard. Use of head, elbow knees, etc for striking.

I know a Sanda (police version) person and he is slowly showing me the style. The first part of the training is basically strength training then it goes to training kicks and punches mainly by hitting trees.


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## pstarr (May 28, 2006)

In the PRC, the government decided that the myriad martial arts teachers (who survived the Cultural Revolution) could go ahead and teach forms and so forth...but not sparring.  Instead, they came up with what is now known as "san shou" which is a sort of homogenous blend of techniques and looks a lot like kickboxing with some grappling tossed into the mix.
     So whether you're a mantis boxer, a Hung Ga stylist, a practitioner of Fut Ga, Xingyi, or whatever...everyone fights - and looks - the same.  The stylistic movements and body actions of the different styles aren't there...
     You can train in a given style in China but when it comes to practicing sparring, you go to a san-shou or sanda ("unrehearsed hitting") teacher.  It doesn't matter what form of kung-fu the teacher trained in because in san-shou everything looks the same...


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## TaiChiTJ (May 31, 2006)

Fascinating. 

I wonder if, besides any political reasons I can't fathom, they insisted on a single fairly homogenous sparring approach because the Chinese arts can really be quite different in terms of fighting range. 

I know they all had their own chin na techniques, but when it comes to stand up fisticuffs, say, wing chun and southern praying mantis would be at the same range but the northern longfist styles would be farther out. I understand the longfist player could adjust (and for that matter the southern stylist could adjust) and certainly a master would know how to, but still the difference in range would be there. 

There is also the issue of techniques that are highly injurious and need to be kept out of a competitive/sports environment. 

Maybe they just looked at the whole vast realm of CMA and decided it would be best to consolidate and homogenize the sparring end of it. 

That still doesn't keep a teacher, in the privacy of his own class, to speak to the issue of self protection as it specifically relates to the style being taught. 

Right?


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## Xue Sheng (May 31, 2006)

TaiChiTJ said:
			
		

> Fascinating.
> 
> I wonder if, besides any political reasons I can't fathom, they insisted on a single fairly homogenous sparring approach because the Chinese arts can really be quite different in terms of fighting range.
> 
> ...


 
There are CMA Sanshou matches outside of China as well. Kung Lee is from the US and a professional Sanshou fighter and there is an international Sanshou competition too. In the most recent one in Vietnam I Believe the Men's Gold medalist was a Russian, I am not sure which style. However the Men's Bronze was a CMC Tai Chi Person as was the Woman's Silver medalist.

Also within China all styles have there own Sanshou if you will. They just get together and duke it out from time to time. Some CMA forms refer to their two person forms as sanshou, but I am not sure how those fit in exactly with the actual Sanshou matches, possibly pstarr would know more about that.


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## pstarr (May 31, 2006)

They don't use the two-person forms as competitive events, if that's what you mean.  There are different sanshou teachers and thus, the differences in methods from one group to the next.

     However, the problem (in my opinion) is that regardless of whether you study wing chun, chang chuan, hung-ga, or whatever - everyone goes to the sanshou class and fights exactly the same way.

     If a traditional kung-fu teacher teaches his students how to fight and has them practice "sparring" in some fashion, the government has been known to step in and bring it to a halt.  If you want to learn to fight, they're told, you go to a sanshou group.

     Frankly, I think the government doesn't want people learning to use the traditional styles for combat - it could eventually lead to problems for them.  Just my opinion...


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 1, 2006)

pstarr said:
			
		

> They don't use the two-person forms as competitive events, if that's what you mean. There are different sanshou teachers and thus, the differences in methods from one group to the next.
> 
> However, the problem (in my opinion) is that regardless of whether you study wing chun, chang chuan, hung-ga, or whatever - everyone goes to the sanshou class and fights exactly the same way.
> 
> ...


 
Thank you sir, 

I was wonder how the individual styles sanshou forms fit in, if at all.


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## Wing Chun Dummy (Jun 1, 2006)

_Kung Fu_ literally means _hard work _and colloquially means fighting. only difference between that and other martial arts is it's a chinese word so generally relates to systems of chinese fighting. if sanshou is practiced by chinese people then we can justify calling it kung fu, surely~


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## mantis (Jun 1, 2006)

Wing Chun Dummy said:
			
		

> _Kung Fu_ literally means _hard work _and colloquially means fighting. only difference between that and other martial arts is it's a chinese word so generally relates to systems of chinese fighting. if sanshou is practiced by chinese people then we can justify calling it kung fu, surely~


hey man, the soup and udon i buy is a "kung fu" brand too!
it's pretty good stuff
so now do you see the pattern?
if it's good then it's kung fu, if not it's something else. the easy rule of kung fu!!


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 1, 2006)

mantis said:
			
		

> udon i buy is a "kung fu" brand


 
That is just so wrong on so many levels. 

Udon is Japanese and Kung Fu is Chinese......


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## monster123 (Jun 1, 2006)

However there is a difference. Someone posted that clip of Karate Vs. Drunken Kung-Fu. The drunken kung-fu fighters remained true to their artform and looked distinctive.
So there seems to be a difference between sparring with traditional kung-fu and sparring with sanshou. Look at that clip of Cung Le's MMA debut. Is he using kung-fu???? I read his bio. 
He was trained in kung-fu initially, but also trained in muay thai, brazilian jujitsu, greco-roman wrestling.


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## Wing Chun Dummy (Jun 2, 2006)

monster123 said:
			
		

> Is he using kung-fu???? ...He was trained in kung-fu initially,...


 
Then he's probably using it in some way.


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## mantis (Jun 2, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> That is just so wrong on so many levels.
> 
> Udon is Japanese and Kung Fu is Chinese......


chinese people like Udon too man.  Good food has no race (unless it's bad then it's probably egyptian).
but anyway, to my point.  If it's good (even if it's Udon) then it's kung fu, if it's bad it's something else (i dont wanna say names hehe)

Anyway, I wonder about those kung fu competitions or matches that i see online.  Those guys wear boxing gloves.  How can they grab, pluck, do chi'na's, pressure points and so on, with them?!


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 2, 2006)

mantis said:
			
		

> chinese people like Udon too man. Good food has no race (unless it's bad then it's probably egyptian).
> but anyway, to my point. If it's good (even if it's Udon) then it's kung fu, if it's bad it's something else (i dont wanna say names hehe)


 
I suppose your right. After all I did eat at a Japanese restaurant (ONCE) when I was in Beijing, OK I will let it slide...this time....



			
				mantis said:
			
		

> Anyway, I wonder about those kung fu competitions or matches that i see online. Those guys wear boxing gloves. How can they grab, pluck, do chi'na's, pressure points and so on, with them?!


 
Answer; they can't. What's that tell ya.


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## mantis (Jun 2, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> I suppose your right. After all I did eat at a Japanese restaurant (ONCE) when I was in Beijing, OK I will let it slide...this time....
> 
> 
> 
> Answer; they can't. What's that tell ya.


tells me they lost most of their kung fu right there! we're back to some sort of kickboxing


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## pstarr (Jun 3, 2006)

Finding a good kung-fu teacher is difficult, even (and maybe especially) in China.  Most of the best kung-fu practitioners live outside of the PRC.  And too many folks mistakenly assume that in order to be "the real deal", a teacher has to be Chinese.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 3, 2006)

pstarr said:
			
		

> Finding a good kung-fu teacher is difficult, even (and maybe especially) in China. Most of the best kung-fu practitioners live outside of the PRC. And too many folks mistakenly assume that in order to be "the real deal", a teacher has to be Chinese.


 
I got the impression that there were a lot of good Kung fu teachers in Beijing, they just didn't advertise, sometimes would not teach foreigners and almost always did not teach in the parks. There are a few that do teach in the parks, I am told, but the rest you need to contact and arrange to meet. 

I did not arrange to meet any when I was there, but they are there from what I am told. However in Beijing it is a lot of internal stuff, Tai Chi, Xingyi, Bagua and then there is a always...Sanda/Sanshou (not internal of course). I did find out there was at least one kendo school there too. 

This is of course only one small part of China, by comparison to the rest of the country.


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## mantis (Jun 3, 2006)

pstarr said:
			
		

> Finding a good kung-fu teacher is difficult, even (and maybe especially) in China. Most of the best kung-fu practitioners live outside of the PRC. And too many folks mistakenly assume that in order to be "the real deal", a teacher has to be Chinese.



I still believe so.  I think the probability of having a good chinese teacher is more than finding a good non-chinese one.  However, the teacher does not have to be in china, or hong kong.  But he has to be closely related to the chinese culture.  This gives the kung fu he teaches more authenticity and credibility, in my opinion anyway.


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## Wing Chun Dummy (Jun 4, 2006)

mantis said:
			
		

> I wonder about those kung fu competitions or matches that i see online. Those guys wear boxing gloves. How can they grab, pluck, do chi'na's, pressure points and so on, with them?!


 
They can strike through pressure points with strong forearm structures, and they can deflect rather than grab (grabbing can be considered an over-commitment because it takes too much time to release the grip so u can get trapped easily). I still think fighting with gloves is a huge hindrance though, they just get in the way, but when you get good at it maybe your empty-handed fighting would also be improved.



			
				mantis said:
			
		

> I think the probability of having a good chinese teacher is more than finding a good non-chinese one.


 
Agreed. Western people generally lack sensitivity because they're more hormonal.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 18, 2006)

pstarr said:
			
		

> Finding a good kung-fu teacher is difficult, even (and maybe especially) in China. Most of the best kung-fu practitioners live outside of the PRC. And too many folks mistakenly assume that in order to be "the real deal", a teacher has to be Chinese.


 
OK I know this post was a while ago, but I forgot to add something.

I do know 2 very good CMA teachers:
(1) CMC Taiji, Bagua and Xingyi 
(2) Wing Chun 

That are Americans, however their teachers were Chinese. 

That is what I tend to see if there is a good CMA school in the US headed by an American Sifu, his or her teachers came form or were in China. 

Must unfortunately, way to often, I go buy a school with a big sign on the front that says KUNG FU and in reality it is a Karate school, and not even a good karate school to be honest. 

Also I do not believe that just because it is a Chinese Sifu or a Sifu that has a good lineage that it is necessarily a good CMA school.

But I must admit I have seen some very talented CMA martial artists that came out of Northern China, Taiwan and Hong Kong.


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## barnaby (Jun 18, 2006)

The gloves certainly limit what can be done in the way of throws, but hip-toss and upper-body control using the arm are popular throws in the ring.  In amateur San Shou I believe the rules prohibit repetative punches, and close range punches to harm the neck, for example, as they are more interested in a good full contact fight for points than they are in seeing knock-outs and injuries.  San Da includes elbows and knees.  According to a text by Yang, (Ming), San Shou literally translates to "random hands."  I think there are forms to go along with the San Shou training, which I guess would qualify it as an art. 

Another interesting rule in the competition is the number of points one gets for pushing the opponent out of the ring.  I'm told this is because in the old days the ring was very high up, without netting -- injury would be inevitable in such instances.


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## profesormental (Jun 18, 2006)

Greetings!!

This is the thing...

Since there are so many styles, matches had to have several rules... and the rules adopted after the cultural revolution in China to test and compare each other, yet similar to a sporting event (like boxing) was San Da (San Shou).

that way practitioners from a myriad of styles could fight each otehr on santioned bouts... and keeping with the no killing of Chinese by Chinese philosophy... also, it's less lethal than application of many techniques from the arts...


INteresting to note how much the rules and optimizing yourself to them really makes your performance similar to that of others practicing for the same bouts... as is happening in MMA and JKD/Wing Chun circles...

their performance is really similar on high levels!

Sincerely,

Juan M. Mercado


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 19, 2006)

profesormental said:
			
		

> and keeping with the no killing of Chinese by Chinese philosophy...



Thank You

Considering a lot of Chinese Police, at least in Beijing, participate in these matches, and many of them demonstrate there ability by putting their heads, feet, fists, elbows, knees, etc. though rocks, I can understand this need for rules.



			
				barnaby said:
			
		

> The gloves certainly limit what can be done in the way of throws, but hip-toss and upper-body control using the arm are popular throws in the ring. In amateur San Shou I believe the rules prohibit repetative punches, and close range punches to harm the neck, for example, as they are more interested in a good full contact fight for points than they are in seeing knock-outs and injuries. San Da includes elbows and knees. According to a text by Yang, (Ming), San Shou literally translates to "random hands." I think there are forms to go along with the San Shou training, which I guess would qualify it as an art.
> 
> Another interesting rule in the competition is the number of points one gets for pushing the opponent out of the ring. I'm told this is because in the old days the ring was very high up, without netting -- injury would be inevitable in such instances.



There is also a non-sport Sanda in China, that can be rather devastating, that comes from Military and Police. I had a chance to start training this and I never got to forms, I did get to beat up on a lot of trees (kicks and punches) and do a lot of pull-ups. If I get myself into better shape the training will continue, but for now it has stopped.


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