# Patience Vs. Efficiency



## PhotonGuy (Jan 19, 2015)

Early on I was posting about how I preferred getting things done in a timely matter. I preferred to get things done quickly and to be efficient rather than patient. I believe what people've pointed out, which I've come to realize is that patience and efficiency are apples and oranges, except for the fact that being impatient can be inefficient.


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## Tez3 (Jan 19, 2015)




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## Danny T (Jan 19, 2015)

Patience, patience, patience. Please..., may I have patience!!

Efficiency is the ability to do something or produce without waste of materials, time, or energy.
Doing something at the wrong time or too quickly and improperly would not be efficiency.

Patience is the capacity or fact of being able to remain calm and not become annoyed when having to wait, when dealing with problems, and/or when dealing with difficult and annoying people/situations.

Being patient more often than not increases efficiency. Less mistakes, less time having to redo, and less material and energy loss. Being patient does not mean being non-productive; that right about now I am feeling.


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## Dinkydoo (Jan 19, 2015)

I don't think the two can be related in such a general manner. Maybe in specific situations but the two aren't inherently comparable.

Getting things done quickly and being efficient are different too. In fact, I've found that trying to do things 'quickly' in terms of training usually means being inefficient, or having to do a hell of a lot of work in a short space of time.


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## drop bear (Jan 19, 2015)

Slow is smooth,smooth is fast.

photon guy. Can you detail exactly what you think it takes to progress quickly in martial arts?

I would consider that our club is about fast progression. But that is through hard work and putting the time in.

which is not an oxymoron.
 Train every day vs once a week and you will get better faster. Train against the guys who will test you or bash you. You will get better faster. Talk less,rest less,train with intensity and you will get better faster.

efficiency takes time and effort and so takes a bit of patience.
 And if it takes a hundred threads to work out what you have to work out then it is worth it in the end.


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## Zero (Jan 20, 2015)

Dinkydoo said:


> I don't think the two can be related in such a general manner. Maybe in specific situations but the two aren't inherently comparable.
> 
> Getting things done quickly and being efficient are different too. In fact, I've found that trying to do things 'quickly' in terms of training usually means being inefficient, or having to do a hell of a lot of work in a short space of time.


Yes. However, as as Danny T explained, there can well be a direct connection between the two (just not as photonguy seemed to be saying) as sometimes patience can lead to great efficiency whereas impatience can simply lead to all the wheels falling off the cart...


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## Cirdan (Jan 20, 2015)




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## Deleted member 32980 (Jan 20, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Early on I was posting about how I preferred getting things done in a timely matter. I preferred to get things done quickly and to be efficient rather than patient. I believe what people've pointed out, which I've come to realize is that patience and efficiency are apples and oranges, except for the fact that being impatient can be inefficient.


 When your younger, naturally your always in a hurry. When you get older (50) you take your time. I, realized at a young age that taking your time and focusing at a task makes you more efficient and you don't mess up as often. It's scientifically proven anyways. But, if I need to clean my house I still multi task and rush it still being efficient.


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 20, 2015)

Tez3 you're not showing much patience.


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 20, 2015)

Danny T said:


> Patience, patience, patience. Please..., may I have patience!!
> 
> Efficiency is the ability to do something or produce without waste of materials, time, or energy.
> Doing something at the wrong time or too quickly and improperly would not be efficiency.
> ...



Right, good comparison.


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 20, 2015)

Dinkydoo said:


> I don't think the two can be related in such a general manner. Maybe in specific situations but the two aren't inherently comparable.
> 
> Getting things done quickly and being efficient are different too. In fact, I've found that trying to do things 'quickly' in terms of training usually means being inefficient, or having to do a hell of a lot of work in a short space of time.



How about this. How about getting things done quickly AND getting them done well. Getting things done in a timely manner but not taking any shortcuts. Getting something done as soon as you can while still doing the best job you can.


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## Dinkydoo (Jan 20, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> How about this. How about getting things done quickly AND getting them done well. Getting things done in a timely manner but not taking any shortcuts. Getting something done as soon as you can while still doing the best job you can.


Doing things quickly and well usually requires a lot of work in my experience. Everyone is different but I find to get anywhere fast in martial arts I really need to put in the hours +++++ if we're talking about improving drastically at anything within a month.


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 20, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Slow is smooth,smooth is fast.
> 
> photon guy. Can you detail exactly what you think it takes to progress quickly in martial arts?
> 
> ...



What I would think it would take to progress quickly in the martial arts would be to train hard and often but not take any shortcuts. As you said somebody who comes to class every day will most likely progress faster than somebody coming in only once a week. And I do agree with it being worth it if it takes a hundred or more threads to work something out as you probably can tell.


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## Danny T (Jan 20, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> What I would think it would take to progress quickly in the martial arts would be to train hard and often but not take any shortcuts. As you said somebody who comes to class every day will most likely progress faster than somebody coming in only once a week. And I do agree with it being worth it if it takes a hundred or more threads to work something out as you probably can tell.



Training is an organized action designed to impart information and/or instruction to improve one’s performance or attain a increased level of knowledge or abilities. Training, because it is a learn model, should be done slowly and relaxed. Once the information is imparted the trainee should slowly at first practice, practice, practice until the moves, positions, actions are ingrained. Then the pressure should be increase, speed should be increase incrementally going only as fast as one can perform properly. Training is learning the information, practice ingrains and it is the repetition, repetition, repetition through hard practice that makes one better. The more you practice properly the quicker you will grow your skills.
You Need More Practice!


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 20, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Early on I was posting about how I preferred getting things done in a timely matter. I preferred to get things done quickly and to be efficient rather than patient. I believe what people've pointed out, which I've come to realize is that patience and efficiency are apples and oranges, except for the fact that being impatient can be inefficient.



how many times are you going to retitle, reword and repost the same exact thing.......


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 20, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> how many times are you going to retitle, reword and repost the same exact thing.......



If you forgot all the times I said it before, it would be like the first time.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 20, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> If you forgot all the times I said it before, it would be like the first time.



It is pretty much the first time....just reworded...so I am guessing you will keep at it until you get the answer that validates your view on the topic....


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 20, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> It is pretty much the first time....just reworded...so I am guessing you will keep at it until you get the answer that validates your view on the topic....



No actually my views on patience and efficiency has changed since the first time I posted them.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 20, 2015)

Doesn't seem so, since you're still misusing the terms in the same way you did the other 14.372 times you've started this thread. 


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.


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## drop bear (Jan 20, 2015)

Danny T said:


> Training is an organized action designed to impart information and/or instruction to improve one’s performance or attain a increased level of knowledge or abilities. Training, because it is a learn model, should be done slowly and relaxed. Once the information is imparted the trainee should slowly at first practice, practice, practice until the moves, positions, actions are ingrained. Then the pressure should be increase, speed should be increase incrementally going only as fast as one can perform properly. Training is learning the information, practice ingrains and it is the repetition, repetition, repetition through hard practice that makes one better. The more you practice properly the quicker you will grow your skills.
> You Need More Practice!



that is kind of interesting because for me it raises this question. Are we training to the level of the worst in the room. Or the best. 

I will add to this my coach has been training seriously for only about five or six years. 

He has been training pretty hard for those six years though.


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## Tez3 (Jan 20, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Tez3 you're not showing much patience.




Is there a reason I should?


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 20, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Is there a reason I should?



Its one of the virtues emphasized in the martial arts, at least that's what I've seen from my own experience and from what lots of people say on these boards.


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 20, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> Doesn't seem so, since you're still misusing the terms in the same way you did the other 14.372 times you've started this thread.
> 
> 
> Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.



14.372 times? Interesting how you can determine that somebody says something 14 times and then .372 times more. Never heard of how often somebody says something being counted in decimals.


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 20, 2015)

drop bear said:


> that is kind of interesting because for me it raises this question. Are we training to the level of the worst in the room. Or the best.
> 
> I will add to this my coach has been training seriously for only about five or six years.
> 
> He has been training pretty hard for those six years though.



Good for your coach. He's obviously worked really hard and put in some good years. So time and hard work have paid off in his case.


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## Tez3 (Jan 20, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Its one of the virtues emphasized in the martial arts, at least that's what I've seen from my own experience and from what lots of people say on these boards.




And are you to determine how virtuous people should be according to a mythical 'martial arts ethos'? I train martial arts to fight, my virtues or otherwise are determined by my beliefs not yours.


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## drop bear (Jan 20, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Its one of the virtues emphasized in the martial arts, at least that's what I've seen from my own experience and from what lots of people say on these boards.



Patience is a virtue. But so is zeal.

(no it really is. Look it up)


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## drop bear (Jan 20, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Good for your coach. He's obviously worked really hard and put in some good years. So time and hard work have paid off in his case.



That isn't much time in martial arts length though.


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 20, 2015)

drop bear said:


> That isn't much time in martial arts length though.



Its all relative. To somebody just starting out with a few months of experience, five or six years is a long time. For somebody with twenty plus years, its a short time.


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## drop bear (Jan 20, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Its all relative. To somebody just starting out with a few months of experience, five or six years is a long time. For somebody with twenty plus years, its a short time.



For somebody with a title defence coming up in 8 weeks and mabye the ufc. It is a very short time.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 20, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> 14.372 times? Interesting how you can determine that somebody says something 14 times and then .372 times more. Never heard of how often somebody says something being counted in decimals.



Take a good look at your keyboard, and notice that "," and "." are right next to each other. I know I'm generally a reasonably accurate typist and I do make it a point to check things like spelling, punctuation, and grammar, but the occasional typo does slip by.

That doesn't change the point of the post, of course.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 20, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> No actually my views on patience and efficiency has changed since the first time I posted them.



yeah...I'm with Dirty Dog on this one.... seems pretty much the same....


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## Danny T (Jan 20, 2015)

drop bear said:


> that is kind of interesting because for me it raises this question. Are we training to the level of the worst in the room. Or the best.


Practice to be the best you can be. Compare yourself to you not others. Continue to practice and to better yourself. If you become the best in the room then seek out those who are better elsewhere and continue to grow. Return to your roots and help your fellow students to become better.


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## drop bear (Jan 20, 2015)

Danny T said:


> Practice to be the best you can be. Compare yourself to you not others. Continue to practice and to better yourself. If you become the best in the room then seek out those who are better elsewhere and continue to grow. Return to your roots and help your fellow students to become better.



Doesn't really answer the question.


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## Danny T (Jan 20, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Doesn't really answer the question.


Very much answered the question.
I instruct, train, and have individuals practice differently all depending upon their strengths and weaknesses. The goal is for them to be their best. Training is to the individual yet given to all.


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## drop bear (Jan 20, 2015)

Danny T said:


> Very much answered the question.
> I instruct, train, and have individuals practice differently all depending upon their strengths and weaknesses. The goal is for them to be their best. Training is to the individual yet given to all.



So the best train with the best and the worst train with the worst according to their levels.

It is hard for us because we cant put newbies in with pro fighters at certain points because we would be stretchering that newbie out.

A lot of clubs have fighters training and vegie patches. Ours isn't really big enough. Which is good and bad.


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## Danny T (Jan 21, 2015)

Fighter training and practice is not with the regular martial arts students. The training is different, the mindset is different, the practice is different. However, the fighters do attend the group classes when not training for a fight. Beginners are in a separate session than the intermediates and advanced.


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## Cirdan (Jan 21, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Its one of the virtues emphasized in the martial arts, at least that's what I've seen from my own experience and from what lots of people say on these boards.



There is no reason to be patient with your nonsensical posts because _according to yourself _ posting the same crap over and over is something you are indeed doing to "prove your point". Until you cease this exercise in futility there is little we can do to help you find wisdom. Mythical enough for you?


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## drop bear (Jan 21, 2015)

Danny T said:


> Fighter training and practice is not with the regular martial arts students. The training is different, the mindset is different, the practice is different. However, the fighters do attend the group classes when not training for a fight. Beginners are in a separate session than the intermediates and advanced.



Se we have one class. And so train at the level of the best. You don't have to achieve that. But you can if you want. It is kind of an interesting method.


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 21, 2015)

Cirdan said:


> There is no reason to be patient with your nonsensical posts because _according to yourself _ posting the same crap over and over is something you are indeed doing to "prove your point". Until you cease this exercise in futility there is little we can do to help you find wisdom. Mythical enough for you?


Ahem. In this thread Im not posting the same stuff. I posted how my views on patience vs efficiency have changed but if you and some of the others don't catch on to what Im saying that's not my problem.


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## Cirdan (Jan 21, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Ahem. In this thread Im not posting the same stuff. I posted how my views on patience vs efficiency have changed but if you and some of the others don't catch on to what Im saying that's not my problem.



Yeah, yet more of the same and actually that _is _your problem.


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## drop bear (Jan 21, 2015)

Cirdan said:


> Yeah, yet more of the same and actually that _is _your problem.



you don't have to post on threads that don't interest you. I mean not every thread is going to appeal to everybody. But even i am not troll enough to jump on threads that are boring to me and constantly say how boring they are.

just sayin.


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 22, 2015)

So let me ask you all, do you believe patience to be important? Not just for martial arts but for life in general.


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## Gnarlie (Jan 22, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> So let me ask you all, do you believe patience to be important? Not just for martial arts but for life in general.


Absolutely, if you want to have meaningful social interactions.


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## Buka (Jan 22, 2015)

Kind of a Yin/Yang thing. On the one hand you have -

"Patience is a virtue, possess it if you can,
Seldom in a woman, but never in a man."

On the other hand -

Patience is what you have when there's too many witnesses.


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 24, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> Absolutely, if you want to have meaningful social interactions.



Well thats true, and so perhaps I should exercise patience in this thread. That earlier post with Captain Picard I found rather offensive.


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## Transk53 (Jan 24, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> So let me ask you all, do you believe patience to be important? Not just for martial arts but for life in general.



Yes, because I have a lack of it PhotonGuy. You have to know it is like to go from zero to one hundred in a nano second. If you can practice one hundred percent patience, then well, share the secret? Probably best not venture into differing patience levels, I would imagine the thread would go South  Imho of course!


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## Transk53 (Jan 24, 2015)

Buka said:


> Kind of a Yin/Yang thing. On the one hand you have -
> 
> "Patience is a virtue, possess it if you can,
> Seldom in a woman, but never in a man."
> ...



That is a good point. Oh well I am totally boned then as Bender would put it


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## Transk53 (Jan 24, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Well thats true, and so perhaps I should exercise patience in this thread. That earlier post with Captain Picard I found rather offensive.



Why?


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## Gnarlie (Jan 24, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Well thats true, and so perhaps I should exercise patience in this thread. That earlier post with Captain Picard I found rather offensive.


The mode of expression may not have been the most subtle, but I think Tez3's message behind that post is pretty fair. This is at least the third thread I have seen where you have posted the same theme under different thread titles. I don't post often, but I do read everything on this site - it seems like some members are losing patience with you, which is understandable, because you have been re-wording and re-posting your point in different threads without showing acknowledgement of the opposing points that have been made.

People have given their views, then you've started another thread covering the same topic. In case you haven't sensed it, this makes people feel like you have either not understood or ignored their views, or you value their views so little that you are going to keep posting the same thread until you get the response that suits you. When people don't feel valued, they start to get a bit short. 

I can't help but feel you might get further with your understanding if you ask questions rather than making statements, and if you restate the points that others have made, summarising during the discussion to demonstrate that you understand what points are being made, even if you do not agree. 

In the threads you have posted, two qualities come across - that you are quite introverted - by this I mean inward looking, self analytical. Also, possibly due to the introversion, you tend to be stuck on transmit rather than receive. If you try to look outward, at what others feel and understand, you may make more progress here.

I mean no attack or offense with this, only that peoples reactions to you here are a mirror of your posting style. I do wonder what you are like in person.


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## Transk53 (Jan 24, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> The mode of expression may not have been the most subtle, but I think Tez3's message behind that post is pretty fair. This is at least the third thread I have seen where you have posted the same theme under different thread titles. I don't post often, but I do read everything on this site - it seems like some members are losing patience with you, which is understandable, because you have been re-wording and re-posting your point in different threads without showing acknowledgement of the opposing points that have been made.
> 
> People have given their views, then you've started another thread covering the same topic. In case you haven't sensed it, this makes people feel like you have either not understood or ignored their views, or you value their views so little that you are going to keep posting the same thread until you get the response that suits you. When people don't feel valued, they start to get a bit short.
> 
> ...



Rightly or wrongly, I have always thought a Buddhist Monk.


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 24, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> If you can practice one hundred percent patience, then well, share the secret?



I would if I could but the fact of the matter is, I know no such secret. Patience, or should I say lack of patience, is one of my weaknesses too, but I, working on it.


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 24, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Why?


Well in and of itself I don't find anything offensive about the fictional character Captain Picard but the way he was presented, putting his hand to his forehead and the wording of the post as well I found offensive. Like I said, I don't automatically find it offensive to see a picture of Captain Picard putting his hand to his forehead but rather, how it was directed at me I find offensive.


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 24, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> The mode of expression may not have been the most subtle, but I think Tez3's message behind that post is pretty fair. This is at least the third thread I have seen where you have posted the same theme under different thread titles. I don't post often, but I do read everything on this site - it seems like some members are losing patience with you, which is understandable, because you have been re-wording and re-posting your point in different threads without showing acknowledgement of the opposing points that have been made.
> 
> People have given their views, then you've started another thread covering the same topic. In case you haven't sensed it, this makes people feel like you have either not understood or ignored their views, or you value their views so little that you are going to keep posting the same thread until you get the response that suits you. When people don't feel valued, they start to get a bit short.
> 
> ...



Well in this thread I wasn't posting the same thing I was actually posting how my viewpoints have changed. At one time I thought that patience was a recipe for failure because I was confusing patience with efficiency. I posted threads explaining how I was against patience and now, in a big part because of other people's responses, I view patience differently and that is what this thread is about. So I post a thread about how my viewpoints have changed and I get a Captain Picard with his hand to his forehead. Is that fair?

As for members losing patience with me, it was people on this board who explained to me about the value of patience in the first place, perhaps they should set an example?


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## Gnarlie (Jan 26, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Well in this thread I wasn't posting the same thing I was actually posting how my viewpoints have changed. At one time I thought that patience was a recipe for failure because I was confusing patience with efficiency. I posted threads explaining how I was against patience and now, in a big part because of other people's responses, I view patience differently and that is what this thread is about. So I post a thread about how my viewpoints have changed and I get a Captain Picard with his hand to his forehead. Is that fair?
> 
> As for members losing patience with me, it was people on this board who explained to me about the value of patience in the first place, perhaps they should set an example?


You are saying your viewpoint has changed, but reading your posts and comparing them to your others, it's not that clear how, and it is really not clear whether you have actually understood the views of others. That I think might be why some frustration has become evident in your threads. 

I think in order to minimise that frustration, you might need to try the following:

Stop using metaphor / allegory / comparisons with 'vs' to describe things. The examples you choose are often only valid from your perspective and only muddy the waters in terms of communication. For example, martial arts is not a race to be run, nor is learning a physical skill the same as academic learning, nor are patience and efficiency comparable. 

Restate the points made by others to demonstrate that you understand. When people feel misunderstood or ignored they get frustrated. 

If your views have changed and you want to state that, then try stating what you thought (directly), what you think now (directly) and what made you change your mind (directly).

Patience is a virtue and a gift to be granted to those who deserve it. If you want people to be patient with you, you have to go some way towards proving that their patience will not be wasted - posting what people perceive to be repeated incorrect points (regardless of their actual validity or otherwise) will quickly exhaust patience you may originally have been afforded.


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 26, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> You are saying your viewpoint has changed, but reading your posts and comparing them to your others, it's not that clear how, and it is really not clear whether you have actually understood the views of others. That I think might be why some frustration has become evident in your threads.
> 
> I think in order to minimise that frustration, you might need to try the following:
> 
> Stop using metaphor / allegory / comparisons with 'vs' to describe things. The examples you choose are often only valid from your perspective and only muddy the waters in terms of communication. For example, martial arts is not a race to be run, nor is learning a physical skill the same as academic learning,



Analogies often are really good for describing stuff.

[QUOTE="Gnarlie, post: 1685459, member: 27131"nor are patience and efficiency comparable.
[/QUOTE]
That's what I said in my first post in my thread.

The fact of the matter is, I don't mean any harm in any of my posts and yet I get blasted. Is it fair for me to get blasted when I don't mean any harm?


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## Tez3 (Jan 26, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> That earlier post with Captain Picard I found rather offensive.



Feeling offended is what as known as a narcissistic injury.


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## Danny T (Jan 26, 2015)

When people make statements about what another said being offensive my first thought is:

"You Are Offended?! How does it feel to be so weak the words hurt you".


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## Tez3 (Jan 26, 2015)




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## PhotonGuy (Jan 26, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Feeling offended is what as known as a narcissistic injury.



Be that as it may there are rules on this forum.


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## Steve (Jan 26, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Analogies often are really good for describing stuff.
> 
> That's what I said in my first post in my thread.
> 
> The fact of the matter is, I don't mean any harm in any of my posts and yet I get blasted. Is it fair for me to get blasted when I don't mean any harm?


Hey, PhotonGuy.  Analogies can be VERY helpful when explaining things.  But putting one things "vs" another isn't an analogy.  It's something called a "false dillemma."  An example of a false dillemma is when you say to your child, "You can have peas or green beans with dinner.  Your choice."  The idea is that you are giving an illusion of choice and limiting the scope of the discussion.  There is no acknowledgment that one could have both green beans AND peas, or neither of the two.

In the same way, patience VS efficiency sets up a false choice.  It frames them as mutually exclusive which kind of sets the wrong tone for the discussion.


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## Tez3 (Jan 26, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Be that as it may there are rules on this forum.



However I wasn't rude to you, it was an indication of how I felt reading the OP, you have *chosen* to feel offended, no rules have been broken.


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## Steve (Jan 26, 2015)

Danny T said:


> When people make statements about what another said being offensive my first thought is:
> 
> "You Are Offended?! How does it feel to be so weak the words hurt you".


So, in a nutshell, you find people who are offended by words offensive?  



Tez3 said:


> Feeling offended is what as known as a narcissistic injury.


Is feeling offended different from being offended?


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 26, 2015)

Steve said:


> In the same way, patience VS efficiency sets up a false choice.  It frames them as mutually exclusive which kind of sets the wrong tone for the discussion.



Yes I've come to realize that and that's what the purpose of this thread was.


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 26, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> However I wasn't rude to you, it was an indication of how I felt reading the OP, you have *chosen* to feel offended, no rules have been broken.



Well then, might I ask you why you feel about my first post like Captain Picard slapping his forehead?


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## Tez3 (Jan 26, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Well then, might I ask you why you feel about my first post like Captain Picard slapping his forehead?




I believe others have explained it to very succinctly and I don't think my repeating what they have said will improve your understanding as you seem to have ignored what they've kindly contributed to your thread.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 26, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Analogies often are really good for describing stuff.



Well, _*good*_ analogies can be. But that doesn't really apply here...


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## Gnarlie (Jan 26, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Analogies often are really good for describing stuff.



Analogies work best when one party has a thorough understanding of a topic and wishes to impart that knowledge to someone with less understanding of the topic. Even then they are often a less efficient mode of transmission than direct description.

When the person using the analogy has a poor understanding of the topic, that poor understanding leads them to choose irrelevant or inappropriate analogies, which only serves to complicate matters. Anyone disagreeing with them is faced not only with the clearing up original poor understanding of the point, but also having to explain why the analogy is poor. In the worst cases, the poor selection of analogy causes misunderstanding of the point originally being made.

I generally find actually directly describing things to be more effective than using analogies, especially when when coming from a weaker position experience wise. 

It's also more efficient to ask questions than make statements, as incorrect statements lead to a conversation about what is incorrect, whereas questions lead to discussion of what is correct.


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## jks9199 (Jan 26, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Be that as it may there are rules on this forum.


If you feel that someone has violated the rules, use the RTM button.  Don't complain or whine in a thread.  We do have a moderation team that monitors and assesses rule violations, y'know...  We don't discuss any action taken against individual members with other members.


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## Danny T (Jan 26, 2015)

Steve said:


> So, in a nutshell, you find people who are offended by words offensive?



Nope. That is not what I wrote.

The meaning of my words are; if you are offended by words you are weak. If one is offended by another persons words it is because they are weak within themselves. Words only hurt those who allow themselves to be hurt by them.


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## Tez3 (Jan 26, 2015)

[QUOTE="Tez3, post: 1685471, member: 10553"being offended is what as known as a narcissistic injury.[/QUOTE]

This isn't my opinion, it's a term used by psychiatrists and psychologists, look it up before you 'disgree' with me.


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## Tez3 (Jan 26, 2015)

[QUOTE="PhotonGuy, post: 1685504, member: 30963be that as it may there are rules on this forum.[/QUOTE]
However it is not against the rules to express exasperation.


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 26, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> [QUOTE="PhotonGuy, post: 1685504, member: 30963be that as it may there are rules on this forum.


However it is not against the rules to express exasperation.[/QUOTE]

And how about if they don't mean any harm in what they say, should you get exasperated with them then?


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## drop bear (Jan 26, 2015)

Danny T said:


> Nope. That is not what I wrote.
> 
> The meaning of my words are; if you are offended by words you are weak. If one is offended by another persons words it is because they are weak within themselves. Words only hurt those who allow themselves to be hurt by them.



blaming the victim?


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## Steve (Jan 26, 2015)

Danny T said:


> Nope. That is not what I wrote.
> 
> The meaning of my words are; if you are offended by words you are weak. If one is offended by another persons words it is because they are weak within themselves. Words only hurt those who allow themselves to be hurt by them.


I'm honestly at a loss as to how to respond.  How about this.  Go into a diverse neighborhood and try this out.  Use a few racial slurs on people of appropriate ethnicity and then suggest to them that if they are offended by your words because they are weak.  See how that works out for you.  

Words matter because of what they represent, good or bad.  It's not the words that are offensive.  It's what the words stand for.  And to suggest that you are above being offended doesn't indicate that you are strong. Rather, it suggests to me apathy, ignorance, naivete and immaturity.


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## Tez3 (Jan 26, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> However it is not the rules to express exasperation.



And how about if they don't mean any harm in what they say, should you get exasperated with them then?[/QUOTE]

Why shouldn't someone get exasperated? Intending harm or not has absolutely nothing to do with it. If someone keeps repeating themselves it is exasperating, you cannot demand patience just because it's you and you think we should play your game.


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 26, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> And how about if they don't mean any harm in what they say, should you get exasperated with them then?



Why shouldn't someone get exasperated? Intending harm or not has absolutely nothing to do with it. If someone keeps repeating themselves it is exasperating, you cannot demand patience just because it's you and you think we should play your game.[/QUOTE]

This time I was not repeating myself. I was posting on how my view of patience has changed. But you failed to notice that.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 26, 2015)

Is there a triple facepalm meme, by any chance?


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## Danny T (Jan 26, 2015)

Steve said:


> I'm honestly at a loss as to how to respond.  How about this.  Go into a diverse neighborhood and try this out.  Use a few racial slurs on people of appropriate ethnicity and then suggest to them that if they are offended by your words because they are weak.  See how that works out for you.
> 
> Words matter because of what they represent, good or bad.  It's not the words that are offensive.  It's what the words stand for.  And to suggest that you are above being offended doesn't indicate that you are strong. Rather, it suggests to me apathy, ignorance, naivete and immaturity.



Yea.
It’s the old; “Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me” thing.

I am a very respectful person Steve and don’t go about purposely speaking to hurt others.

Thing is those who are offended simply by words are either wanting to be offended or their being offended is a weakness. That weakness is used often by others to shape their thoughts and actions. That weakness allows their emotions to override logical thought. It takes a strong person mentally to not allow their emotions to control their thoughts and subsequent actions.

We all have periods of weakness and emotions do takeover. Happens to us all and yes it is a point of weakness.  I stand behind my statement that if one is offended by words then you are weak and Yes, I have been weak many times in my life.

In conversation it is all about context, timing, and tone.

When one allows words to offend one’s self you are showing ignorance and immaturity and in all honesty I find it a bit comical. It is seen often and causes great consternation in families, politics, religions, friendships, and all other aspects of life. If you allow words to be only that, words; conversation and discussion can be held. When one becomes offended then there is only argument or fighting.

If anyone says something and I am offended then it is me allowing those words to offend me. I also believe one of the very best ways to deal with someone attempting to offend me is to not be offended. Don’t allow them to get to you.


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## Danny T (Jan 26, 2015)

drop bear said:


> blaming the victim?


If you don't allow the words to offend there is no victim.


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## Steve (Jan 26, 2015)

Danny T said:


> Yea.
> It’s the old; “Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me” thing.
> 
> I am a very respectful person Steve and don’t go about purposely speaking to hurt others.
> ...


Now your suggesting that emotions are weakness?   Lol.  Okay.   I think you're a little off the rails. For what it's worth, your opinion is not uncommon among young, white dudes who want to feel better about saying things they know they probably shouldn't.  At least, that's been my experience.   

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## Danny T (Jan 26, 2015)

Steve said:


> Now your suggesting that emotions are weakness?   Lol.  Okay.   I think you're a little off the rails. For what it's worth, your opinion is not uncommon among young, white dudes who want to feel better about saying things they know they probably shouldn't.  At least, that's been my experience.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


No, but allowing your emotions to control your thoughts and words is.
Might be nice to be young again; white I ain't but was brought up in a Irish Gaelic & Cajun French family though.


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## drop bear (Jan 27, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> Is there a triple facepalm meme, by any chance?



There are facepalm memes for all occasions.


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## drop bear (Jan 27, 2015)

Danny T said:


> If you don't allow the words to offend there is no victim.



As the pope said.
"It is true that you must not react violently, but... if [somebody] says a curse word against my mother, he can expect a punch"

No really that an actual quote.


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 27, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> Is there a triple facepalm meme, by any chance?



Be sure to look in the mirror while doing that.


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## Danny T (Jan 27, 2015)

drop bear said:


> As the pope said.
> "It is true that you must not react violently, but... if [somebody] says a curse word against my mother, he can expect a punch"
> 
> No really that an actual quote.


I believe he stated that about the recent attacks on the offices of French magazine Charlie Hebdo . That while true one should not react violently if you say things that others are offended by be expecting a retaliation. He used himself and his mother as an example. I don't believe he was condoning violence by what someone said or wrote. Just that if you do say or write things that others feel offended by they should not react violently but don't be surprised or shocked when they are violent.


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## Tez3 (Jan 27, 2015)

Holocaust Memorial Day today and I'm off to services so I'll leave you to it. The Shoah was something truly offensive in a way that cannot be expressed, a Captain Picard facepalm not so much.


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## Tgace (Jan 27, 2015)

How old are you Photon?


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 27, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> You are saying your viewpoint has changed, but reading your posts and comparing them to your others, it's not that clear how, and it is really not clear whether you have actually understood the views of others. That I think might be why some frustration has become evident in your threads.
> 
> I think in order to minimise that frustration, you might need to try the following:
> 
> ...



Gnarlie I would like to point some stuff out. You said in your post that patience and efficiency aren't comparable. That's exactly what I said in my very first post in this thread, that they aren't comparable except for the fact that being impatient can be inefficient. And if I keep repeating myself its because some people just don't catch on, and I find that frustrating.

And about patience being a gift granted to those who deserve it. A gift is not given to people who deserve them, you don't earn gifts, they're given freely. If something is given to someone because they earned it than its not a gift. Its a reward but not a gift.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 27, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Gnarlie I would like to point some stuff out. You said in your post that patience and efficiency aren't comparable. That's exactly what I said in my very first post in this thread, that they aren't comparable except for the fact that being impatient can be inefficient. And if I keep repeating myself its because some people just don't catch on, and I find that frustrating.



Something you really ought to consider is that in many cases, when it seems like you're standing against the whole world, the reason isn't because the whole world is wrong, but that you are.


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## drop bear (Jan 27, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> Something you really ought to consider is that in many cases, when it seems like you're standing against the whole world, the reason isn't because the whole world is wrong, but that you are.



group think.


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 27, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> Something you really ought to consider is that in many cases, when it seems like you're standing against the whole world, the reason isn't because the whole world is wrong, but that you are.



It never seems to me like Im standing against the whole world, I might be standing against certain people in the world but not the whole world.


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## Gnarlie (Jan 27, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Gnarlie I would like to point some stuff out. You said in your post that patience and efficiency aren't comparable. That's exactly what I said in my very first post in this thread, that they aren't comparable except for the fact that being impatient can be inefficient. And if I keep repeating myself its because some people just don't catch on, and I find that frustrating.



I understand that, but I think others might not have at the time of your original post. The concepts you bring up  in these threads are already pretty clear to most people here, so it's almost like you're going through a really slow analytical process that other people don't need to go through because the truth is already obvious to them. Not only that, you argue your position with people who give you their input, when it is clear to most people that the original premise of the thread is flawed. At which point they become frustrated. 

The OP was also so similar to your other threads which had already been done to death that people got a little exasperated. I think perhaps starting a new thread may have contributed to this. If you changed your view, why not post that as an addendum to the original thread in the context where it perhaps more belonged?



PhotonGuy said:


> And about patience being a gift granted to those who deserve it. A gift is not given to people who deserve them, you don't earn gifts, they're given freely. If something is given to someone because they earned it than its not a gift. Its a reward but not a gift.



I think you'll find that every member here initially granted you the gift of patience. But patience, like trust, is given provisionally, and when it is worn out it is gone. I am not saying you have to earn it in the first instance, it is given freely, but retaining that gift is a two way street - you have to work to retain it and not expect others to do that work for you. This means thinking, restating, considering, and perhaps moderating one's position rather than constantly defending it. You don't have to post your every thought process - just the edited highlights will do.

You're now in the rather unenviable position of trying to win people's patience back...


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 27, 2015)

Danny T said:


> Yea.
> It’s the old; “Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me” thing.
> 
> I am a very respectful person Steve and don’t go about purposely speaking to hurt others.
> ...



You know Danny I've been thinking over what you said and I believe you're right. If you let yourself get all riled up over what people say it is a weakness. Sometimes emotions take over logic and common sense and it happens to all of us from time to time. It has happened to me and it has happened to other people here. It takes practice and mental training to overcome that. Even racial slurs, which Im totally against and never make, shouldn't get a strong, confident, dignified person riled up. If somebody does make a racial slur I think its best to not lower yourself to their level. You should control your emotions not the other way around. I see that happen on these boards when people get frustrated over stuff I say but I also get like that too sometimes. As such I am teaching myself to not let it bother me so much. All too often in the real world of martial arts people are too much like Kreese and not enough like Miyagi but that's their problem. We all know what happened with Kreese, he lost all his students and his dojo went bust.


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 27, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> I understand that, but I think others might not have at the time of your original post. The concepts you bring up  in these threads are already pretty clear to most people here, so it's almost like you're going through a really slow analytical process that other people don't need to go through because the truth is already obvious to them. Not only that, you argue your position with people who give you their input, when it is clear to most people that the original premise of the thread is flawed. At which point they become frustrated.
> 
> The OP was also so similar to your other threads which had already been done to death that people got a little exasperated. I think perhaps starting a new thread may have contributed to this. If you changed your view, why not post that as an addendum to the original thread in the context where it perhaps more belonged?


The original thread is quite old and Im not sure if its still up, I would have to search back to find it. And besides, some people think its silly to restart a thread that has been dead for a long time, so thats why I started a new thread, to show how my viewpoint has changed. 



Gnarlie said:


> I think you'll find that every member here initially granted you the gift of patience. But patience, like trust, is given provisionally, and when it is worn out it is gone. I am not saying you have to earn it in the first instance, it is given freely, but retaining that gift is a two way street - you have to work to retain it and not expect others to do that work for you. This means thinking, restating, considering, and perhaps moderating one's position rather than constantly defending it. You don't have to post your every thought process - just the edited highlights will do.
> 
> You're now in the rather unenviable position of trying to win people's patience back...


My positions on some stuff has changed, and I've posted about that. And if somebody does have a position that's different than mine in most cases I respect that, but I like to see where they're coming from.
And I do see what you mean about trust and patience being worn out, like the boy who cried wolf, good point.


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## drop bear (Jan 27, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> I understand that, but I think others might not have at the time of your original post. The concepts you bring up  in these threads are already pretty clear to most people here, so it's almost like you're going through a really slow analytical process that other people don't need to go through because the truth is already obvious to them. Not only that, you argue your position with people who give you their input, when it is clear to most people that the original premise of the thread is flawed. At which point they become frustrated.
> 
> The OP was also so similar to your other threads which had already been done to death that people got a little exasperated. I think perhaps starting a new thread may have contributed to this. If you changed your view, why not post that as an addendum to the original thread in the context where it perhaps more belonged?
> 
> ...



Yeah but friendly forum so patience is going to be necessary.


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## Gnarlie (Jan 27, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Yeah but friendly forum so patience is going to be necessary.


I agree, that's why I am still posting, and trying to be constructive. As I already said, it's a two way street, and it's not fair to expect others to think on one's behalf. There should be progress from post to post...


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## drop bear (Jan 27, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> I agree, that's why I am still posting, and trying to be constructive. As I already said, it's a two way street, and it's not fair to expect others to think on one's behalf. There should be progress from post to post...



Yes but there is a difference between disagreeing and explaining which you are doing. And being hacked into mean girls style.


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## Gnarlie (Jan 27, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Yes but there is a difference between disagreeing and explaining which you are doing. And being hacked into mean girls style.


I agree.


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## Danny T (Jan 27, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> You know Danny I've been thinking over what you said and I believe you're right. If you let yourself get all riled up over what people say it is a weakness. Sometimes emotions take over logic and common sense and it happens to all of us from time to time. It has happened to me and it has happened to other people here. It takes practice and mental training to overcome that. Even racial slurs, which Im totally against and never make, shouldn't get a strong, confident, dignified person riled up. If somebody does make a racial slur I think its best to not lower yourself to their level. You should control your emotions not the other way around. I see that happen on these boards when people get frustrated over stuff I say but I also get like that too sometimes. As such I am teaching myself to not let it bother me so much. All too often in the real world of martial arts people are too much like Kreese and not enough like Miyagi but that's their problem. We all know what happened with Kreese, he lost all his students and his dojo went bust.


Cool. All the best in you endeavors.


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## Steve (Jan 27, 2015)

PhotonGuy and DannyT, it seems to me that you are both equating being offended with being angry.  I completely disagree that one should never be offended.  But I do agree that one should be able to manage their behavior and emotions when offended to handle it constructively.


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## Danny T (Jan 27, 2015)

Steve said:


> PhotonGuy and DannyT, it seems to me that you are both equating being offended with being angry.  I completely disagree that one should never be offended.  But I do agree that one should be able to manage their behavior and emotions when offended to handle it constructively.


To offend is to cause discomfort, injury_, _dislike, anger, irritation or annoyance.


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## Steve (Jan 27, 2015)

Danny T said:


> To offend is to cause discomfort, injury_, _dislike, anger, irritation or annoyance.


Thanks for clarifying what you mean when you use the term "to offend."   It definitely helps.   I'll try to do the same. 

Anger, irritation or annoyance are reactions to many things, offense being only one.  People are often angry, irritated or annoyed by things that they do not find offensive.  Conversely, not everyone who is offended is angry, irritated or annoyed.  And, of course, someone who is offended may not be any of these things.

Something that is offensive is morally or physically objectionable, reprehensible, and/or insulting. If you are never offended, I would argue you lack a well defined moral compass.  Moral apathy or immunity to moral outrage is, IMO, a character flaw.  Once again, how you react to reprehensible or objectionable words or behavior is different from being offended by them.  So, when you say someone who is offended is weak, I really believe the opposite to be true.  Someone who is never offended is, at best, morally questionable.


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## Danny T (Jan 28, 2015)

Anger:
To make angry, to infuriate, to rile, to offend, to madden.

Never said one should never be offended.
Said if words offend you then you are weak.

Words are but a means of communication. Words themselves can’t hurt or offend unless you allow them to.
The person speaking or writing them offends. It is the actions (or non-actions) of the person that is offensive. Not the words.


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## Transk53 (Jan 28, 2015)

Danny T said:


> Never said one should never be offended.
> Said if words offend you then you are weak.



Agree. The good old "sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me"


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