# Shibashi Qigong, Chuan/Yan and Shin Tora Do/Chi



## Jac (Apr 11, 2017)

Hi all, 
I'm in a rural area, and the nearest city that offers tai chi is 2 hours away. I did find an instructor, but he said he teaches Shibashi Qigong, Chuan/Yan and Shin Tora Do/Chi. I have been able to find information on Shibashi qigong, but I can not find anything on Chuan/Yan or Shin Tora Do/Chi. From what I understand, these are styles of tai chi. I'm baffled because shin tora do is definitely Japanese, whatever it is. Anyone familiar with these? Thanks.


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## oaktree (Apr 11, 2017)

Anthony von Sager is most likely the creator for shin tora do ( the way of the tiger heart? )
The shibashi 十八式  is a modern style of qigong. If the teacher knows about sanbao he is good if not then I wouldn't bother with him.


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## Midnight-shadow (Apr 12, 2017)

Well, from what I've found, "Shin Tora Do" is a mixed martial arts system founded by Anthony von Sager, who is a world-renowned (although I've never heard of him) Martial Artist and Athlete:

Anthony von Sager - Public Speaking & Appearances - Speakerpedia, Discover & Follow a World of Compelling Voices

As for the art itself, I can't find any information on it or anyone who claims to teach it. As for Chuan/Yan, the only thing I can find that it might be is "Yuan-Chi Tai Chi Chuan":

Yuan-Chi Tai Chi Chuan – The Spontaneous Way

If I might ask, what are your reasons for wanting to learn Tai Chi? I ask because it would seem, looking at the styles listed, that the instructor focuses primarily on promoting good health and longevity above all else, through the extensive use of moving meditation and Chi flow. That's fine but I know it's not for everyone, and if you plan on travelling 2 hours for every class, it might not be worth it for you.


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## oaktree (Apr 12, 2017)

Yuan taijiquan looks to be new age taoist tai chi society you probably could do some online thing and it would be better or at least the same.


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## mograph (Apr 12, 2017)

oaktree said:


> Yuan taijiquan looks to be new age taoist tai chi society you probably could do some online thing and it would be better or at least the same.


Yep. This is a clue: "*Tai Chi Chuan* is literally the _All-Pervading Ultimate Fist_. " ( About Tai Chi – Yuan-Chi Tai Chi Chuan ) This shows that the writer of the piece knows squat about taijiquan and has mistranslated "taiji" for the purposes of self-aggrandizement. "Taiji" is better translated as "first polarity" or "most opposites." It refers to the Taoist metaphor of the constantly moving forces between yin and yang. The polarities are opposites: yin is often passive, and yang is often active. _Taiji_ has nothing to do with "best," or "greatest.""Ultimate" = "polarity" or "extreme."

I'd avoid the group. It seems to cater to western orientalism, where all things Eastern are "other:" either inscrutable or magical.


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## Buka (Apr 12, 2017)

Welcome to MartialTalk, Jac.

Living in a rural area can be tough. For training, maybe take whatever you can get. And good luck, bro.


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## mograph (Apr 12, 2017)

Which city are we talking about, Jac? There may be other options that would be easier for you to practice outside of class.


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## Jac (Apr 12, 2017)

Thank you. Whenever I hear of styles that are not Chen, Yang, Wu, or Sun, I start to wonder. There's a lot of woo woo out there. I did find one other guy who teaches. He admits that he is an advanced student and still learning, though. He teaches Cheng Man Ching style. I've looked into it, but I'm not sure what to think. After searching long and hard, these are the only two instructors I have found. In the meantime, I am using Dr. Lam's videos, but I feel like in person instruction would help, even if it is just the basics.


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## oaktree (Apr 12, 2017)

The Cheng man Ching form is a solid form and often one's introduction to taijiquan and yang style in general. Dr. Lam's videos are OK I have met and spoken to one of his senior students they are more focused on health then say any martial application.


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## Jac (Apr 14, 2017)

mograph said:


> Yep. This is a clue: "*Tai Chi Chuan* is literally the _All-Pervading Ultimate Fist_. " ( About Tai Chi – Yuan-Chi Tai Chi Chuan ) This shows that the writer of the piece knows squat about taijiquan and has mistranslated "taiji" for the purposes of self-aggrandizement. "Taiji" is better translated as "first polarity" or "most opposites." It refers to the Taoist metaphor of the constantly moving forces between yin and yang. The polarities are opposites: yin is often passive, and yang is often active. _Taiji_ has nothing to do with "best," or "greatest.""Ultimate" = "polarity" or "extreme."
> 
> I'd avoid the group. It seems to cater to western orientalism, where all things Eastern are "other:" either inscrutable or magical.


I'm new to this, but I thought Taiji meant "supreme ultimate" or something along those lines--as in the combined forces of yin and yang make up the ultimate. The way I understand it, yin and yang are not opposing forces, at least not completely, because they both have a little of the other in each of them, and they both transition into the other. For example, take day and night. Day transitions to night transitions to day. They are not opposing, but rather two different sides to one whole--like balancing scales, they exist to keep the balance of the whole. Like I said, though, I'm just starting out, so I may not have an accurate grasp of the concept.


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## mograph (Apr 16, 2017)

Nope, sorry. I cannot state any more clearly that "ultimate" in this context has _nothing_ to do with greatness, mostness or value. It is about *polarities*, or *ends*. Remember that penultimate means next-to-last, or next to the end? *Ultimate means the end, the extreme.* For example, in this list, A B C D E F G H I J K, the _"ultimates"_ are A and K. It doesn't mean they're any _better_ than the other letters: they are simply the ends of the list.

(As for being opposing, or two halves of a whole, that's the same concept when there are only _two_ things in the model. I don't mean that they _hate_ each other or actively try to destroy each other, but if you only have _two_ things, they must sit in positional or definitional opposition to each other. They are only _not_ in opposition if there is a _third_ thing present.)

Wu chi, or _*wuji*_, (see second diagram below) means no opposites, no extremes, no polarities, no ultimates (where "ultimate" = "end"). Wuji is represented by a plain circle. This, according to Taoist cosmology, is the theorized beginning of all, where everything is the same and *nothing is differentiated*. All is one bowl of red jell-o, with no marshmallows in it.

The next stage is _*taiji*_ (tai chi), where opposites begin to form, but are constantly changing from one (yin) to the other (yang) and back. The yin-yang diagram we all know (below) is taiji. In the taiji diagram we see a drop of yin within the _zone_ that is mostly yang, and vice-versa: this drop allows one to change to the other. Without that drop, the zone will stay as it is.

Food-wise, this is a magic bowl of ice cream: Today, the bowl is mostly chocolate with a chunk of vanilla, but the vanilla can grow while the chocolate shrinks, until it is mostly vanilla with a chunk of chocolate. Or check out the animated GIF below. The dot grows until it takes over that space -- but note that there is still a dot of the other within. This is necessary for taiji -- there is always a bit of one extreme within a _zone_ that is primarily made up of the other extreme.

One _martial_ application of this is when you are relaxed, you stay lively in case you need to move: you are mostly yin, but you have a drop of yang in you ready to go. Or you let the opponent in (yin), but you arrange it so that you can send him back out again (yang). Or you send him out (yang), but as you push/press/whatever, you are _sensitive_ (yin) to his changing his focus/weight/position so that you can react. Never be all yin or all yang.

_Wuji_ is when you stand on both feet before shifting your weight to one foot or the other. Once you turn for "grasp bird's tail," you are then in a state of _taiji_, shifting weight and focus from one foot/side/hand to the other as you go. You are in a state of taiji until the end of the form.

Note that *yin does not contain yang or vice versa*: instead, a zone, area or _state of being_ that contains mostly yang also contains some yin, and vice versa. It's like saying that one _bowl_ contains mostly vanilla ice cream, but also contains a bit of chocolate: vanilla is still vanilla, and chocolate is still chocolate. Vanilla does not contain chocolate or vice versa: the bowl contains _pure_ vanilla or _pure_ chocolate in varying _proportions_. They _do not mix into gray_ ice cream in this analogy. In _taiji_, *they must still be differentiated as black and white*, but the _state_ or _container_ can change in the proportion of each which it contains. 

(3rd diagram again) After taiji, yin and yang split further into _unchanging_ yin and unchanging yang, then into states that _combine_ unchanging yin and yang, then into bagua, and eventually into "the myriad things" or the world of named stuff that we know. So the model goes -- and taoists _know_ it's a model.

Hope that helps.


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## Jac (Apr 22, 2017)

Do any of you have experience with Loretta Wollering's tai chi at www.internalgardens.com? I thought some of her videos were interesting, but at the same time I'm kind of wary because she is really pushing her product on her website.


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