# Does anyone train gun / knife retention & use from the ground?



## Bill Mattocks (Jun 27, 2017)

I'm not talking about disarming drills, or patterns of attack/defense in the classical sense.

I'm talking about someone tries to mug you, you draw your concealed weapon, you get tacked to the ground, and now you are fighting for your life with a gun or knife in one hand, trying to keep it from being taken from you and regaining your feet and/or using the weapon effectively whilst so engaged?

Likewise, you are confronted by an armed hoodlum, you tackle him to the ground, and now you are the one trying to avoid being shot or stabbed, and to take away the weapon?

Just curious.  I'm not sure I've seen such discussion or training before.

What I have seen are what we in karate might call 'one step' drills.  The bad guy does this, you do that.  You step thusly, block as such, grasp, twist, stab, slash, etc.  But what happens when it all goes south and you end up in a heap on the ground?  The BJJ guys have many escapes and ways to avoid being taken down, etc.  But it all changes when one hand is holding a weapon, edged or noisy, or your enemy is.

Is there training out there for that?


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## CB Jones (Jun 27, 2017)

We did in the Academy, until one cadet had his trigger finger dislocated and another broke his collarbone.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 27, 2017)

Hey Bill, we do this a lot in IRT.  Almost all of us carry all the time so retention skills are essential.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jun 27, 2017)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Hey Bill, we do this a lot in IRT.  Almost all of us carry all the time so retention skills are essential.



OK, so for example:  You're on the ground, you have a knife in your dominant hand, the bad guy is on top of you pinning your knife hand to the ground and trying to pry it out of your hand without being cut himself.  You need to keep control of the weapon, use it to defend yourself, and get up off the ground.  Is this the sort of thing you do in IRT?  If so, groovy!


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## Tony Dismukes (Jun 27, 2017)




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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 27, 2017)

Yes that is one way we would work on with retention of a tool.  Another might be that we have a firearm on our hip, appendix, etc. and the attacker become aware of it on the ground and they then try to take it.  From there we would try to apply pressure on the firearm keeping it in the holster while improving our position so that we can get up and create space or draw and use it if needed/warranted.  Just one example as there are a lot of different retention drills you can do.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jun 27, 2017)

Awesome, thanks guys!  Question answered!


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## Tony Dismukes (Jun 27, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> OK, so for example:  You're on the ground, you have a knife in your dominant hand, the bad guy is on top of you pinning your knife hand to the ground and trying to pry it out of your hand without being cut himself.  You need to keep control of the weapon, use it to defend yourself, and get up off the ground.  Is this the sort of thing you do in IRT?  If so, groovy!


One thing to remember is that your foundation for addressing this scenario is fundamental grappling skills. Adding the weapon to the equation affects your tactical options, but the skills necessary for protecting yourself from the bottom, escaping your opponent's control of your knife hand, and getting to your feet are all grappling fundamentals.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 27, 2017)

Personally, I like where the Gracie's have evolved too with their system for LEO's.  I know that initially it left a lot to be desired but they have improved quite a bit.

In the Keith Owen video I would be curious if he was addressing only a triple retention holster situation.  If not and the individual tried the first technique without a triple holster the bad guy might have the weapon during the sweep, etc.  Even with triple retention it is better to immediately put a hand on the firearm with downward pressure to retain it or a grip over the opponents hand with downward pressure to retain it then move into a sweep.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jun 27, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> One thing to remember is that your foundation for addressing this scenario is fundamental grappling skills. Adding the weapon to the equation affects your tactical options, but the skills necessary for protecting yourself from the bottom, escaping your opponent's control of your knife hand, and getting to your feet are all grappling fundamentals.



Would you not think that having a weapon you need to defend in one hand would change the dynamics to some extent?  Especially given that the attacker would presumably be focused on taking away the weapon from you as opposed to beating your brains out on the ground, etc?


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## Tony Dismukes (Jun 27, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Would you not think that having a weapon you need to defend in one hand would change the dynamics to some extent?  Especially given that the attacker would presumably be focused on taking away the weapon from you as opposed to beating your brains out on the ground, etc?


That's what I meant about affecting the tactical options. The weapon may affect the priorities for both you and the attacker. However the underlying skill set for achieving those priorities is the same.

BTW - the attacker may be more focused on disarming you than bashing your head in, but you can't afford to assume that. In the situation you describe, you need to protect yourself from being hit *and* protect yourself from being disarmed *and* potentially prevent the attacker from deploying his own weapon *and* escape the controlled position *and* get to your feet.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jun 27, 2017)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Personally, I like where the Gracie's have evolved too with their system for LEO's. I know that initially it left a lot to be desired but they have improved quite a bit.



It's my impression that they did a lot of listening and learning from the LEOs they were working with, which is bound to improve the curriculum.



Brian R. VanCise said:


> In the Keith Owen video I would be curious if he was addressing only a triple retention holster situation. If not and the individual tried the first technique without a triple holster the bad guy might have the weapon during the sweep, etc. Even with triple retention it is better to immediately put a hand on the firearm with downward pressure to retain it or a grip over the opponents hand with downward pressure to retain it then move into a sweep.



It's probably harder to address all the details when you don't have a training weapon or holster to work with. It looks like that particular video may have been in response to a question at a seminar which wasn't focused on weapon issues.


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## drop bear (Jun 27, 2017)

Yeah. jelly wrestlers do it. When you are trying to get a sweatband off another persons wrist.


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## drop bear (Jun 27, 2017)

double post.


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## drop bear (Jun 27, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Would you not think that having a weapon you need to defend in one hand would change the dynamics to some extent?  Especially given that the attacker would presumably be focused on taking away the weapon from you as opposed to beating your brains out on the ground, etc?



The better grappler still generally wins.


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## Danny T (Jun 27, 2017)

Yes we do.
From standing, kneeling, on the ground on top and from the bottom.
Firearms, bladed weapons, impact objects. And vs multiple opponent's who have multiple weapons.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 27, 2017)

drop bear said:


> The better grappler still generally wins.



Not always, particularly if the better grappler has never worked with weapons and weapon retention skills.  An example would be an LEO versus someone trained in MMA.  My money in most incidents is going to be on the LEO who trains specifically for the context of utilizing his weapons/tools.  Now, if he doesn't train or his department is lax then that is a training issue.  Still, the point being made and I have actually worked with world class grappling instructors who did not take into account weapons/tools coming into the mix.  There was a gigantic hole in their training for personal protection and some of the grapping skills they utilized left them very vulnerable against an opponent drawing a knife or firearm.  This is what Tony and I were talking about above in regards to the Gracie's improving their training for LEO"s.  Initially they came at it from a straight up jiujitsu perspective and it did not address the needs and concerns of LEO officer wearing a gun belt, with a handgun, taser, handcuffs, flashlight, etc.  What they initially taught had a lot of dangerous material in it.  They have improved as Tony mentioned by listening to officers and making corrections.  Still, they have a ways to go even now as one of the videos showed them doing and armbar which would be a no no for an officer.


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## DanT (Jun 27, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I'm not talking about disarming drills, or patterns of attack/defense in the classical sense.
> 
> I'm talking about someone tries to mug you, you draw your concealed weapon, you get tacked to the ground, and now you are fighting for your life with a gun or knife in one hand, trying to keep it from being taken from you and regaining your feet and/or using the weapon effectively whilst so engaged?
> 
> ...


Yes, you just simulate it as much as possible as a sparring scenario with equipment.


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## drop bear (Jun 27, 2017)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Not always, particularly if the better grappler has never worked with weapons and weapon retention skills.  An example would be an LEO versus someone trained in MMA.  My money in most incidents is going to be on the LEO who trains specifically for the context of utilizing his weapons/tools.  Now, if he doesn't train or his department is lax then that is a training issue.  Still, the point being made and I have actually worked with world class grappling instructors who did not take into account weapons/tools coming into the mix.  There was a gigantic hole in their training for personal protection and some of the grapping skills they utilized left them very vulnerable against an opponent drawing a knife or firearm.  This is what Tony and I were talking about above in regards to the Gracie's improving their training for LEO"s.  Initially they came at it from a straight up jiujitsu perspective and it did not address the needs and concerns of LEO officer wearing a gun belt, with a handgun, taser, handcuffs, flashlight, etc.  What they initially taught had a lot of dangerous material in it.  They have improved as Tony mentioned by listening to officers and making corrections.  Still, they have a ways to go even now as one of the videos showed them doing and armbar which would be a no no for an officer.


The tool box is there. they just need to choose the right tool for the job.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 27, 2017)

Yes and I would agree that BJJ as a base gives you a lot of options when grappling.  The problem is that probably most people who grapple never work with weapons being involved.  My experience with very advanced grapplers is that they miss the little cues before a weapon will be introduced.  Sure they have skills, sure those skills can translate but if they translate to late during a violent encounter then they probably will be killed.   Most BJJ or grappling systems simply do not address weapon retention and weapon use on the ground.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 27, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> That's what I meant about affecting the tactical options. The weapon may affect the priorities for both you and the attacker. However the underlying skill set for achieving those priorities is the same.
> 
> BTW - the attacker may be more focused on disarming you than bashing your head in, but you can't afford to assume that. In the situation you describe, you need to protect yourself from being hit *and* protect yourself from being disarmed *and* potentially prevent the attacker from deploying his own weapon *and* escape the controlled position *and* get to your feet.


I'm going to need a to-do list for that.


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## CB Jones (Jun 27, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I'm talking about someone tries to mug you, you draw your concealed weapon, you get tacked to the ground, and now you are fighting for your life with a gun or knife in one hand, trying to keep it from being taken from you and regaining your feet and/or using the weapon effectively whilst so engaged?



Seeing that the gun is already drawn....I'm fighting to create enough space to use the weapon.


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## Buka (Jun 29, 2017)

Yes and yes. Haven't in a while, though.


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## Brian King (Jun 30, 2017)

We do a LOT of unscripted training with weapons while on the ground and while transitioning to and from the ground. For folks that carry firearms we also 'touch' on contact shooting.

A fun blade drill that you might want to explore Bill, that comes from Systema informally nicknamed Stalin's bodyguard.Three people on the ground and none are allowed to stand up. One metal knife. This is an attribute drill NOT a technique type of drill. One more time, this is for training attributes not necessarily techniques.

The idea is for two to work against the one with the knife and to somehow get the knife out of that ones hand(s). Now the trick is everyone is stab and slice proof and 'cannot die' or run away. If the attacker keeps a 'death grip' or turtles up on his blade then the other two simply start punching that attacker...hard until they decide to loosen up the grip, if the attacker is in such a position that he cannot attack as the defenders have control of the blade or hand, then the attacker should 'let' a defender gain control of the blade. The attackers job is to slice and dice the other two right away and aggressively. Like a snapping dog, cut anything and everything within range. Whoever has the blade is the attacker and the other two are the defenders and 'victims'. The genius of this drill Bill is that the very instant the knife switches hands the roles switch. There is no called stop, no discussing. One minute you are on the attackers legs while your partner is gaining control of the attackers arms and upper body and the next your partner is reaching over and slicing your back and neck...and you are on your needed partners legs!

Bodyguards throughout history have been notorious in killing their protected charge and often fellow bodyguards in the process. This drill teaches weapon and situation awareness. It explores intimately the OODA loop, especially the observe and orientate phases while in physical action. It demonstrates the danger of fixation. It teaches how a body feels and reacts when it goes from defender to attacker or from attacker to defender. Importantly it is a heck of a lot of fun. Laughter must be encouraged (required even), not anger or rage. Learning these attributes in this type of drill require a playful mindset. A metal training blade assists takeway's but increases danger. Watch the eyes and keep the speed to a speed that all can handle. If much more experienced are working with beginners, they the more experienced should handicap themselves a bit...use one arm not the other, shut their eyes, keep a hand in a pants pocket or inside a belt etc.

Regards
Brian King


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## lklawson (Jul 21, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I'm not talking about disarming drills, or patterns of attack/defense in the classical sense.
> 
> I'm talking about someone tries to mug you, you draw your concealed weapon, you get tacked to the ground, and now you are fighting for your life with a gun or knife in one hand, trying to keep it from being taken from you and regaining your feet and/or using the weapon effectively whilst so engaged?
> 
> ...


I do some.

These guys do a *LOT*.  They have a systemized method for it..
New Home Page | American Warrior Society

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 22, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I'm not talking about disarming drills, or patterns of attack/defense in the classical sense.
> 
> I'm talking about someone tries to mug you, you draw your concealed weapon, you get tacked to the ground, and now you are fighting for your life with a gun or knife in one hand, trying to keep it from being taken from you and regaining your feet and/or using the weapon effectively whilst so engaged?
> 
> ...



Bill,

I have done this with those I train with. It is not as regular as Brian's guys, particularly firearms. I usually do that work with one or two others outside of class. 

In the mid 00's, I was in London Ontario to teach a intro knife seminar on Friday night. I was to hang out with some friends over the weekend, and attend a friend's event
on Sunday. Well that Saturday there was a Vale Tudo event and we were invited as guests by the host to attend. They were working ground work. I had my Wave trainer with me for my instruction seminar and I was working with another friend from Michigan. He and I were off to the side and we started out working on the techniques the instructor was teaching. We were in street clothes, while everyone else was in a gyi or shorts for wrestling/ vale tudo. 

My friend asked if I had my trainer, and I said yes. I put it in my front pocket where I would carry it and then we worked if I could deploy it. With the wave it was just getting access and being able to pull. That unique sound / snap of the blade locking into place stopped the seminar except the two of us. I was giggling and trying to stab and cut him and he was trying to stop me. He was also giggling. Yes it was like to little kids tickle fighting each other. We were enjoying it. I stopped when the instructor got near and I realized that I had paid attention to my near space but not to enough of the lack of noise as everyone had stopped. He the instructor looked at us like we were crazy and then I verified with him that it was a trainer. (* Note when I grabbed it to come back on the floor, he saw me and so I flashed him the blue handle and the non edged blade and showed it would cut. He did not register that. He just saw me get something and he smiled and let us continue. *) 

He then told the rest of the seminar attendees that what we were doing was not on the agenda for the class / seminar. 

So yes we do train it. And I do more often then in class as it is done for myself. Some of my private students want more of this so they get more as they are paying the private rate and gear the instruction to their desires.


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