# Joe Palanzo's Kenpo Self Protection.



## hongkongfooey

Here are some clips from Mr. Palanzo's Kenpo Self Protection course. What do you think the impact of this program will be on American Kenpo?

Mace of Aggression
http://www.wkka.org/data/files/3/75.wmv

Five Swords
http://www.wkka.org/data/files/3/76.wmv

Falcons of Force
http://www.wkka.org/data/files/3/77.wmv

This one sounds like it should be marketed by Ronco. For just three easy payments of $19.95 It slices! It dices! It even purees!
http://www.wkka.org/data/files/3/78.wmv


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## THUNDERING MANTIS

Hi,

When were these (series?) made? I've only seen the 'mace of aggression' but it differs, somewhat to what I know of a plug to the solar/p inplace of the 'elbow'- those that are of the same learnings- do you think this is a potential 'mysterious' road to travel for the kenpo student?

by not using the change of high low and 'ying-yang hands' the technique becomes more lost- but perhaps my learning is biased.

experienced guys- please let me know what you think of the 'mace of agression' (my technique is 'flail and mace' extension -to the best of my knowledge)...

kind regards,

thunderning mantis


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Palanzo's got more chins than a Chinese phone book.


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## MattJ

I was a bit disappointed by them. They did not seem very exciting to watch, nor did I think they explained a lot. He seems to be holding back a lot on these. 

I did quite a few private lessons with him (accompanying my instructor) back in the early 90's, and he was much more animated and detailed in his descriptions.


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## hongkongfooey

In my opinion, I believe that this type of thing just waters down the system even more. How long before you start seeing Master Hwangs Tae Kwon Kenpo Do? There are enough Kenpo posers out there, we don't need any more.


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## JamesB

stances


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## THUNDERING MANTIS

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka and hongkongfooey are along the lines more with what I think and don't say outright.

so I should toss that b/w crest then too? (right, right...)


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## hongkongfooey

Mantis, 

Don't be shy when it comes to your beliefs. I have come to the conclusion that American Kenpo will never regain the respect that it had when Ed Parker was alive, unless we in the Kenpo community start teaching and studying a no nonsense version of our repective Kenpo arts.

There are a lot of McDojos in the Kenpo world these days and it's not getting any better.  It's time we all faced that fact. This KSP thing, home study blackbelt courses, poor quality instruction, and all of the infighting, doesn't do Ed Parker any justice.


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## Doc

hongkongfooey said:
			
		

> Mantis,
> 
> Don't be shy when it comes to your beliefs. I have come to the conclusion that American Kenpo will never regain the respect that it had when Ed Parker was alive, unless we in the Kenpo community start teaching and studying a no nonsense version of our repective Kenpo arts.
> 
> There are a lot of McDojos in the Kenpo world these days and it's not getting any better.  It's time we all faced that fact. This KSP thing, home study blackbelt courses, poor quality instruction, and all of the infighting, doesn't do Ed Parker any justice.


How dare you say such a thing.


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## hongkongfooey

It's a wonder that I haven't been flamed for my view.


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## Bode

> Don't be shy when it comes to your beliefs. I have come to the conclusion that American Kenpo will never regain the respect that it had when Ed Parker was alive, unless we in the Kenpo community start teaching and studying a no nonsense version of our repective Kenpo arts.



I really hope that some day you get the chance to stop at our school (Doc and SL4).

General comments regarding Mace of Agression and the general Kenpo community. 
The Tech Mace of Agression from the video reminded me of something that has been bugging me for a while. When explaining techniques I often here phrase like, "Just remove the choke hold" or "place your hands on his to nullify his hands".

Words like these, in any explanation, are just to simple to actually learn something from. You can't tell someone, "just remove the headlock" without telling them how. Same goes for Mace of Agression. Placing your hands on the attackers will not nullify their hands. How do you make it work? How do you place your hands on the attackers? How do you have the strength and stability to not let the attacker pull away? As the instructor you had better know because your life and the lives of your students may be on the line some day. General explanation yield general results. Video learning is just not acceptable as a form of learning "how". 
Meh, climbing off soapbox now.


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## Doc

hongkongfooey said:
			
		

> It's a wonder that I haven't been flamed for my view.


In law, truth is an absolute defense. Besides I've been saying the things you said for years. I've already taken all the flames for you.


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## hongkongfooey

Bode said:
			
		

> I really hope that some day you get the chance to stop at our school (Doc and SL4).
> 
> General comments regarding Mace of Agression and the general Kenpo community.
> The Tech Mace of Agression from the video reminded me of something that has been bugging me for a while. When explaining techniques I often here phrase like, "Just remove the choke hold" or "place your hands on his to nullify his hands".
> 
> Words like these, in any explanation, are just to simple to actually learn something from. You can't tell someone, "just remove the headlock" without telling them how. Same goes for Mace of Agression. Placing your hands on the attackers will not nullify their hands. How do you make it work? How do you place your hands on the attackers? How do you have the strength and stability to not let the attacker pull away? As the instructor you had better know because your life and the lives of your students may be on the line some day. General explanation yield general results. Video learning is just not acceptable as a form of learning "how".
> Meh, climbing off soapbox now.


 
Bode,

If I ever get out to California again, I will. Even if just to say hi!


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## kenpohack

Honestly, these are some of the best production videos I have ever seen! Mr. Palanzo deserves to be commended on the video quality and presentation. Other than that, I'll refrain from comment on the grounds that anything I would say would be considered disrespectful and inflammatory.


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## Doc

kenpohack said:
			
		

> Honestly, these are some of the best production videos I have ever seen! Mr. Palanzo deserves to be commended on the video quality and presentation. Other than that, I'll refrain from comment on the grounds that anything I would say would be considered disrespectful and inflammatory.


Isn't is a shame that the truth would be 'disrespectful and inflammatory?"


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## MJS

I have not seen all of the clips in question.  I saw a few minutes of Mace of Aggression.  IMHO, this is one of the main reasons why I personally feel that videos/dvds of any sort, should be reserved as a supplement only.  To learn, think that you'll get any fine points, etc., is fooling yourself.  

This is certainly not meant to flame Mr. Palanzo, as I'd hope in person, the details would be more forthcoming.

Mike


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

So, I got some weenie boy dingin me in the rep system with a comment about those silly kenpo people dissing anything that isn't there's, then calling me racist. And, of course, they didn't sign it.

To that bonehead: You are either too dense to get it, or simply don't know me very well, do you. That joke (more chins than a Chinese phone book) is an old one. Nevertheless, I didn't hear it until my Chiro school buddy, Dr. Stone, used it on me in the middle of a practice lab, and got me to howling at my own...um....prominent mylohyoid. No matter how lean I get, I ALWAYS am one nod away from a second chin....possibly a third. (and I'm currently 6'4", 215 and about 15% body fat...still have one). And I've been waiting 10 years to find anyone else...any opportunity...to bring that one out of the box and dust it off.

As for the racist accusation...let me give you some stuff to really get mad at. Well, maybe not. Thread drift, and all. I'll keep it easy for you: I'm so Heinz 57, that hating on any group for racial purposes would likely have me hating on myself. And prejudiced based on culture, color, etc., is perhaps the only thing thicker than the skull of the idjit who torqued me on this one.

And if you really want to know what I think about distance learning...well criminey. I've been trashing it on this board long enough, most know how I feel about it. But I'll make it easy for you, so there's no guesswork.

Everybody is tippy-toeing so as not to offend one of kenpo's more senior seniors. At least NOW I'd know what he looked like if I hit him with my car. But I still don't tip-toe.

Distance learning is a horrible idea, but a great money maker for the developor/vendor. There are too many subtleties under the guidance of a good professor that require IMMEDIATE correction and feedback. In a one-way communication medium, this cannot be done. The best (and only) use of this medium is as a reminder set of notes...like breezing throiugh some old class notes when you're bored or sittting on the john.

As for these tapes, specifically...haven't seen all of them. The few I have seen demonstrated some poor mechanical habits that will, undoubtedly, get passed on to successive generations and further canonized as "how kenpo is done". I'm sure Mr. Palanzo is very good. I'm sure he can tool my hide. The kenpo I've seen in the tapes is still sub-par, and the communication medium is still a bad idea for serious study.

And I STILL think he has more chins than a Chinese phone book. Now, if you want to flame my heiny with anonymous crap, you'll have something to say.

Sincerely,

this English-Irish-Indian-Black-German-Polish-Danish-Scotts-etc. White boy who grew up the only haule kid in a Hawaiian-Philipino-Samoan-Japanese-Chinese-Tongan-etc. neighborhood on the west side of Oahu uber-racist and honorary member of the KKK (well, the last part ain't true),

Dave

Flame on!

PS -- Lighten up folks. It's only life.


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## hongkongfooey

I second that, Dave. People shouldn't be afraid to speak up.


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## Kenpojujitsu3

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> .....As for the racist accusation...let me give you some stuff to really get mad at. Well, maybe not. Thread drift, and all. I'll keep it easy for you: *I'm so Heinz 57*, that hating on any group for racial purposes would likely have me hating on myself. And prejudiced based on culture, color, etc., is perhaps the only thing thicker than the skull of the idjit who torqued me on this one.....


 
:roflmao: :rofl: :rofl: :roflmao: I haven't heard that one dragged out of the archives in a while!


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## THUNDERING MANTIS

To speak your thoughts is very idealistic, but to blantantly pick apart-and degredate a persons' character regarding their 'present' action, or direction they do is also a reflection on your OWN character.

I do not know Mr. Palanzo's circumstances nor situation, many things may have contributed to the production of the videos relevant. That the showing is so poor you'd think maybe... well how does that actually look full speed? Aside from this, shooting the idea of video for any other reason than documentary in martial arts is very difficult (aside from volitile).

What happened to Joe P? Did age turn him slow, and strip him of all the colorful patches and red stripes? Maybe he's humbled, maybe alot of things.

So then, his videos stink! (can't comment on form 7 clubs)

Also, a number of people I knew in kenpo under a D. Nkrd in PA- found themselves in videos on the website- guess what? These same people, same that a friend considered collegues were so bad at martial arts it was like looking at adults/playing karate-kungfu with new black belts just bought.

I refuse to accept that any of those guys seriously is good at kenpo, or any other martial practice. Like many, the only thing I see is a group that just wanted to get a 'black belt.'(not be a good (decent?) kenpo/martial artist) 

A pic is worth a thousand words, what about a video? Lack of grace, over extensions- show of piss-poor coordination tells me they are mince meat for any real threat of an expert regardless of style.

have the standards, or we-all fallen so low? (Is contact and slapping your uniform for effects a dead practice?)

appologies to any offended parties, 
best regards,

...


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## Kenpodoc

First things first. "more chins than a Chinese phone book" is not racist, it refers to the fact that Chin is more commonly a chinese name than say an english or russian name. Joe does have extra chins. I also have more chins than ideal even when I lose weight.

Nice production values on the new WKKA tapes.  if one were teaching their curriculum these tapes would suppliment the learning well.  One can't learn the subtleties of martial arts from tapes but these would serve as a nice notebook to remind one of the base moves. Personally I will not begrudge Mr. Palanzo for supplimenting his income with these tapes. Distance learning is a horrible idea, but tapes to suppliment personal training is a good idea.

I would  have like to see some discussion of the attacks in a more realistic manner after demonstrating the base static version of the techniques. 

Jeff


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## HKphooey

hongkongfooey said:
			
		

> Mantis,
> 
> Don't be shy when it comes to your beliefs. I have come to the conclusion that American Kenpo will never regain the respect that it had when Ed Parker was alive, unless we in the Kenpo community start teaching and studying a no nonsense version of our repective Kenpo arts.
> 
> There are a lot of McDojos in the Kenpo world these days and it's not getting any better. It's time we all faced that fact. This KSP thing, home study blackbelt courses, poor quality instruction, and all of the infighting, doesn't do Ed Parker any justice.


 
My fellow phooey, keep it real as you always do!  

But let's remember that when GM Parker was formulating American Kenpo, he used motion kenpo, categories of completion, taking out some material, TV commericals, opened franchises, sold books, etc.  Is that not McDojo philosophy?  I think many "target" Kenpo instructors for doing the exact same things GM Parker did.

When it comes down to it, unless you are teaching for free, it is about money.  No disrespect to GM Parker.  I love his material and will continue to seek kenpo knowledge until the day I die (along with any other kenpo/kempo materail somone is willing to teach me).  I wish I had some of the Seniors (and many other teachers) closer to my state so that I could attend seminars and classes more.  I would go to all of them if I could.


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## Kenpojujitsu3

hongkongfooey said:
			
		

> Here are some clips from Mr. Palanzo's Kenpo Self Protection course. What do you think the impact of this program will be on American Kenpo?
> 
> Mace of Aggression
> http://www.wkka.org/data/files/3/75.wmv
> 
> Five Swords
> http://www.wkka.org/data/files/3/76.wmv
> 
> Falcons of Force
> http://www.wkka.org/data/files/3/77.wmv
> 
> This one sounds like it should be marketed by Ronco. For just three easy payments of $19.95 It slices! It dices! It even purees!
> http://www.wkka.org/data/files/3/78.wmv


 
Having watched all the videos I'd say the videos are good. Good graphical touches, good sound quality and clarity, good zoom points, good video overlays, nice touch with the overhead angle...

....Oh I forgot about the actual presentation of the material....I'll just say that I'm from Baltimore and now I see where much of the Kenpo in the area comes from. What I learned and continue to learn looks drastically different from these videos, despite my original instructor having received 4th Black ranking from Mr. Palanzo before switching associations.

I'm wondering what happened here. Regarding information quality/quantity there is alot being held back, this much I know from dealing with Joe Palanzo schools and instructors. These guys claim to learn it all from Mr. Palanzo and they (some of them) have a MUCH deeper understanding than what's shown on these tapes. Either something is being held back or these guys are training with a different line covert style. For Motion quality....I'll say that many (not all) of the instructors from this line move better than the Grand Master shown. I wonder if Mr. Palanzo's age and subsequent hip replacements and knee injuries have something to do with this...He looks nothing like what I saw in past demonstrations...except the slapping for sound effects that I saw even in demo videos of Mr. Palanzo where Mr. Parker was present....

Interesting videos to say the least...


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## NOZR1

I'm wondering why in 5 swords that he teaches to slightly cock the outward handsword when that is not moving from point of origin? :idunno:


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

NOZR1 said:
			
		

> I'm wondering why in 5 swords that he teaches to slightly cock the outward handsword when that is not moving from point of origin? :idunno:


 
IMHO, POO to POC is an over-rated, poorly understood concept in kenpo. The blow lacks momentum, even with rotational torque, and as such lacks any decent injurious penetration.

In a discussion of this w/ Mr. P, he even talked about the importance of exploring a continuous figure-8 in this opening (block, chop), so there would be some heft to the outward handsword (path tracking toward your own body, scraping the forearm and slightly downward, prior to passing the ear on the path back out toward the target).

Sorry for the thread drift, but this has been on my mind a bit.

Regards,

Dave


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## NOZR1

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> The blow lacks momentum, even with rotational torque, and as such lacks any decent injurious penetration.


 I agree, and I guess that is one reason the technique has changed in the AKKI. :supcool:


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## Kenpojujitsu3

NOZR1 said:
			
		

> I'm wondering why in 5 swords that he teaches to slightly cock the outward handsword when that is not moving from point of origin? :idunno:


 
probably because the point of origin "rule" ranks second to the "effective execution rule".  Meaning, if a weapon won't have enough power from it's point of origin it must be cocked first and then delivered.  No weapon is to be delivered if it will not have its desired effect.  Point of origin also does not mean a straight line.  There are circular points of origin as well.


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## Doc

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> probably because the point of origin "rule" ranks second to the "effective execution rule".  Meaning, if a weapon won't have enough power from it's point of origin it must be cocked first and then delivered.  No weapon is to be delivered if it will not have its desired effect.  Point of origin also does not mean a straight line.  There are circular points of origin as well.


Duh!  Somethings are so obvious they should bite you in the butt. Well said sir.


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## NOZR1

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> Meaning, if a weapon won't have enough power from it's point of origin it must be cocked first and then delivered. No weapon is to be delivered if it will not have its desired effect.


I don't agree with this. You don't cock a jab do you? You use it to set up your next punch I hope. I guess it really depends where you want to put the emphasis/timing on this technique. Although I'm not certain, I would have to believe that is why the AKKI changed this technique.





			
				Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> Point of origin also does not mean a straight line. There are circular points of origin as well.


 I agree, it depends upon which method of execution you choose.


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## Kenpojujitsu3

NOZR1 said:
			
		

> I don't agree with this. You don't cock a jab do you? You use it to set up your next punch I hope. I guess it really depends where you want to put the emphasis/timing on this technique. Although I'm not certain, I would have to believe that is why the AKKI changed this technique. I agree, it depends upon which method of execution you choose.


 
Actually.........you do cock a jab if it's not the first punch thrown, just like the outward handsword in five swords isn't the first use of the right hand in that technique hense the re-cock or figure 8 depending on where you learned it.  throw a jab and then throw a second one without recocking.......can't do it can you?  Like I said point of origin doesn't mean what most people think it does.  Point of origin also doesn't carry as much weight as people place on it.....The AKKI changed the technique to put a quicker stop to the opponent's left hand which is surely coming.  Though there are other ways to stop the left hand the AKKI's version works as well.


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## Doc

NOZR1 said:
			
		

> I don't agree with this. You don't cock a jab do you? You use it to set up your next punch I hope. I guess it really depends where you want to put the emphasis/timing on this technique. Although I'm not certain, I would have to believe that is why the AKKI changed this technique. I agree, it depends upon which method of execution you choose.


"For record sir, jabs are cocked."


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## Doc

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> Actually.........you do cock a jab if it's not the first punch thrown, ....


You do cock a jab even if it is the first punch thrown.


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## NOZR1

Doc said:
			
		

> "For record sir, jabs are cocked."


OK, I should have said drawn back not cocked.


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## Kenpojujitsu3

NOZR1 said:
			
		

> OK, I should have said drawn back not cocked.


 
depending on your stance the jab is drawn back. when you stand at attention and then "drop into a stance" and "ready your hands" for sparring what do you think you just did with your hands? hopefully you raised them, drew them back near your body for protection and "cocked" them for jabs, crosses and other blows."


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## Kenpojujitsu3

Doc said:
			
		

> You do cock a jab even if it is the first punch thrown.


 
Yep, but it was easier for me to compare it to the five swords as a second move.  When are you going to be on the east coast sir? I have to see you again.


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## Doc

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> Yep, but it was easier for me to compare it to the five swords as a second move.  When are you going to be on the east coast sir? I have to see you again.


As of now sir, the closest I'll be is Tampa Florida the weekend of the 3rd of November. I'll have my top guys with me. Contact Kenny Gonzales at
res0kj14@verizon.net
Common down and we can spend a buch of time together. It would be good to see you too sir.


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## Atlanta-Kenpo

Hey Doc!

Kevin and myself will see you in Tampa!  I will bring my note book and pencile to take lots of notes.


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## Doc

Atlanta-Kenpo said:
			
		

> Hey Doc!
> 
> Kevin and myself will see you in Tampa!  I will bring my note book and pencile to take lots of notes.


Thanks for the warning - I mean, it will be good to see you.


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## parkerkarate

Would you all like to know why Mr. Joe did what he has done. All of our students were having trouble learning these techniques, his sontried to come up with an easier way to learn this stuff. He did this by breaking the techniques down into the first three levels which puts you at a black belt. None of you really know what they had to go through to put this tape out there and none of you know how much money they have been making and how many students they have gotten from them, especially after the Supershow in Las Vegas. The tapes were supposed to be like a training lesson for the two individuals. THey were supposed to make mistakes so Mr. Joe could fix them. For some people to compare this to a McDojo, I am ashamed. I have been teaching at that school for almost 5 yearsand it is no where near that.
"To see is to know, but to feel is to believe."


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## jfarnsworth

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> ..... When are you going to be on the east coast sir? I have to see you again.


I was really hoping that he was going to say there was a date planned to be in columbus.


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## hongkongfooey

parkerkarate said:
			
		

> Would you all like to know why Mr. Joe did what he has done. All of our students were having trouble learning these techniques, his sontried to come up with an easier way to learn this stuff. He did this by breaking the techniques down into the first three levels which puts you at a black belt. None of you really know what they had to go through to put this tape out there and none of you know how much money they have been making and how many students they have gotten from them, especially after the Supershow in Las Vegas. The tapes were supposed to be like a training lesson for the two individuals. THey were supposed to make mistakes so Mr. Joe could fix them. For some people to compare this to a McDojo, I am ashamed. I have been teaching at that school for almost 5 yearsand it is no where near that.
> "To see is to know, but to feel is to believe."


 
Why are all of the students having trouble learning the material? Sounds to me if all of the the students aren't learning, there is a problem with the instruction. Why would there need to be an easier way to learn the techniques? Some of the techniques are difficult to perform on a body, I will give you that, but they will get easier with dedicated practice. 

 I have been to his school in Pikesville and I have been to the sister school in Cockeysville many times. I didn't have a chance to see Mr. Palanzo do anything as he wasn't there. I did see Mr. Walsh teach his class, a few times. Nice guy, but his students were unimpressive. They just looked like they were going through the motions. I had intentions of joining his school before I had watched a class, I left disappointed.


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## parkerkarate

hongkongfooey said:
			
		

> Why are all of the students having trouble learning the material? Sounds to me if all of the the students aren't learning, there is a problem with the instruction. Why would there need to be an easier way to learn the techniques? Some of the techniques are difficult to perform on a body, I will give you that, but they will get easier with dedicated practice.
> 
> I have been to his school in Pikesville and I have been to the sister school in Cockeysville many times. I didn't have a chance to see Mr. Palanzo do anything as he wasn't there. I did see Mr. Walsh teach his class, a few times. Nice guy, but his students were unimpressive. They just looked like they were going through the motions. I had intentions of joining his school before I had watched a class, I left disappointed.


 
Well for one, the Cockeysville school is no longer under Mr. Palanzo. We broke them off because of financial problems, I will leave it at that. Some of the techniques have changed a little bit and a bunch were taken out because of repitition and so forth. Mr. Joe only teaches the instructors now twice a month. And I do agree with some people that say that he is leaving alot of the info out but do we need to be taught absolutly everything. If people are true martial artists they should be able to figure things out for themselves and not have it spoonfed to them. I am one of the two head instructors there and I can say that there is nothing wrong with the instruction.


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## IWishToLearn

I believe this is the point where Dr. Chapel would make a comment like "Differences in methodology will dictate necessities." .... but I could be wrong.


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## Kenpojujitsu3

parkerkarate said:
			
		

> Well for one, the Cockeysville school is no longer under Mr. Palanzo. We broke them off because of financial problems, I will leave it at that. Some of the techniques have changed a little bit and a bunch were taken out because of repitition and so forth. Mr. Joe only teaches the instructors now twice a month. And I do agree with some people that say that he is leaving alot of the info out but do we need to be taught absolutly everything. If people are true martial artists they should be able to figure things out for themselves and not have it spoonfed to them. I am one of the two head instructors there and I can say that there is nothing wrong with the instruction.


 
I have been to Mr. Palanzo's schools more than enough and can say this in my experiences and opinions regarding this discussion.

1) People don't need to be spoon fed but good intruction is good and bad is bad period. The spoon fed reason is an excuse for lack of detail in an instructional product. That's just inexcusable. There is a big difference between leaving a few minor details out and leaving a few major details out.

2) If people are having problems learning something then that is a DIRECT reflection of the instruction. There are not bad students only bad teachers an old saying goes. If they don't get it they don't get the belt period. Making a DVD wouldn't fix this, more hands on instruction of the instructors and students COULD if the instruction was good enough.

3) I have unfortunately gotten more comments on the "unimpressiveness" of Joe Palanzo affiliated martial artists than any other group. For example Myself and my friend Aaron Chapman went to a Joe Palanzo school and worked out. After the workout an old man on the sidelines who does not train in martial arts stopped us and said "Where do you guys train? I can tell that you aren't from here and it's not because I've never seen you two. You guys actually hit people instead of this patty cake karate they do up here. They're just going through the motions." This old man sat there for 30 minutes praising how hard we work compared to what he's used to seeing. He even tried to get myself and my friend to agree to help teach his grandson who was training there but we have an honor code: No stealing students, period.

4) At the LTKKA camp a week or so ago there were about 4 Black Belts with Joe Palanzo workout bags and Joe Palanzo patches. I lost track of how many people asked me (as they know I'm from Baltimore) how these guys got their Black Belts. One of the seminar instructors had to even pull two of these guys to the side and explain to them that their "movement was both sloppy and lazy and that they needed to stop saying 'I got it' because they don't have it and can't do it well." 

5) You can't say you're a head instructor and that there is nothing wrong with the instruction. Your opinion is notably biased as you wouldn't get on here and say "I'm a head instructor and my teaching sucks"

6) I went to a WKKA camp last year (or the year before last) and observed the rank testing being done. There were Black Belts screwing up their techniques and forgetting their forms. Nothing wrong with that. They either were nervous or weren't ready and we are all human. The problem is they were promoted anyway with no corrections given. The only "shining lights" were two woman that were actaully hitting and one third degree that was going for fourth who was moving with authority. I commented to my friend that this test was depressing me to no end. Let alone the extreme watering down of the curriculum.

I try to refrain from posting negative commentary even when it's true, I'm not as blunt as Doc. But the "spoon fed" excuse I've heard too many times for poor instruction got to me big time. Nothing worse than an excuse for lazy or poor instruction. And the "you don't know how many students we got from those" which translates to "hey most of the guys posting aren't impressed with the stuff but some nameless statistics were impressed." didn't help either. Food for thought....When people experienced in something express displeasure with it in large amounts (like the members of this board" it doesn't help to go "we got students from this". All that means is you impressed some kenpo beginners who didn't know what to look for.


----------



## parkerkarate

I have to agree with you alot of the testing at the camp is pretty ugly and for that I am ashamed. And yes I am probably biased but the information is given it is up to the student on what they do with it. In my opnion I would not test half of the people that Mr. Joe wants me to because they are not ready for the belt yet but he has become a buisness man in some sorts. I asked him a few weeks ago if he like teaching anymore, he said that things got old after the first 20 years and left it at that. All I am saying is that the information is there but it up to people to really think about it to find it.


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3

parkerkarate said:
			
		

> I have to agree with you alot of the testing at the camp is pretty ugly and for that I am ashamed. And yes I am probably biased but the information is given it is up to the student on what they do with it. In my opnion I would not test half of the people that Mr. Joe wants me to because they are not ready for the belt yet but he has become a buisness man in some sorts. *I asked him a few weeks ago if he like teaching anymore, he said that things got old after the first 20 years and left it at that.* All I am saying is that the information is there but it up to people to really think about it to find it.


 
D*** it hurt me to read that but it explains alot.  Another instructor in the area a few days ago explained to me "that teaching has become work and no one likes to go to work.....".


----------



## parkerkarate

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> D*** it hurt me to read that but explains alot. Another instructor in the area a few days explained to me "that teaching has become work and no one likes to go to work.....".


 
I deffinitely like to teach there there I will leave my opinions at that.


----------



## Flying Crane

parkerkarate said:
			
		

> ...but he has become a buisness man in some sorts. I asked him a few weeks ago if he like teaching anymore, he said that things got old after the first 20 years and left it at that.


 
About 20 years ago my instructor attended a seminar in Chicago with Mr. Parker and a number of his students, including Joe Palanzo.  I remember when he returned from the seminar, he spoke very very highly of the experience and all the teachers, including Mr. Palanzo.  It's too bad that he seems to have lost his passion for what he does.

I think this illustrates the danger of turning martial arts into business.  Often, for many of us, we simply work at our job without a lot of passion for the work itself.  We may be good at what we do, but it is simply a means to collect a paycheck and pay the rent and put food on the table.  Our real passions usually fall outside our job.  

When you turn your passion into a business, it can become like a job.  You lose the passion that you had, and you do it simply to collect the paycheck.  You may still do a decent job, but often the quality diminishes because you don't care about it the way you once did.  It gets old, like any job.

I often question the wisdom of turning MA into business.  Personally, I think it is usually best to keep it outside of business, don't tie your livelihood to it, and don't lose the passion.  Make it a side business at most.  I think quality stays higher this way.


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3

jfarnsworth said:
			
		

> I was really hoping that he was going to say there was a date planned to be in columbus.


 
There's Kenpo in Ohio? who knew?


----------



## Kenpodoc

parkerkarate said:
			
		

> I have to agree with you alot of the testing at the camp is pretty ugly and for that I am ashamed. And yes I am probably biased but the information is given it is up to the student on what they do with it. In my opnion I would not test half of the people that Mr. Joe wants me to because they are not ready for the belt yet but he has become a buisness man in some sorts. I asked him a few weeks ago if he like teaching anymore, he said that things got old after the first 20 years and left it at that. All I am saying is that the information is there but it up to people to really think about it to find it.


I've noticed that a lot of schools have essentially a 2 class structure. a) those who really want to work and learn and arne't really rank motivated and b) those who pay for the school and allow the the first group to have a home to come and work in.  My solution is to thank those who allow my teacher to maintain his studio. This is also why I care very little about my rank or anyone elses for that matter. The process is what counts not rank.. I hope Joe can at least occassionally remember his old passion for Kenpo.

Jeff


----------



## Kenpodoc

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> There's Kenpo in Ohio? who knew?


It amazed me too. I'm still thankful for my luck.

Jeff


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3

Kenpodoc said:
			
		

> It amazed me too. I'm still thankful for my luck.
> 
> Jeff


 
LOL!!!!!


----------



## jfarnsworth

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> There's Kenpo in Ohio? who knew?


Yeah man.:uhyeah: 

We're roughly 60 miles (give or take) north of Dr. Chapel's student in Columbus. I can't speak for Kenpodoc but I, myself will be sure to be there regardless of the funds. Some way some how I'll be there.  

While I"m thinking of it. When Mr. Jim gave me his business card, was the phone number on it his home number or his studio number? I've been working that form ALOT since last week and have one question that needs an answer.


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3

jfarnsworth said:
			
		

> Yeah man.:uhyeah:
> 
> We're roughly 60 miles (give or take) north of Dr. Chapel's student in Columbus. I can't speak for Kenpodoc but I, myself will be sure to be there regardless of the funds. Some way some how I'll be there.
> 
> While I"m thinking of it. When Mr. Jim gave me his business card, was the phone number on it his home number or his studio number? I've been working that form ALOT since last week and have one question that needs an answer.


 
Probably the studio number, but I just PM'd you the studio phone and his cell phone as well as my own phone so you can definitely get a hold of him when you need to.


----------



## RichK

James, now now, BREATHE. I normally do not pipe in but just read many posts, especially from Mr. Hawkins here who can put into application what he types. Parkerkarate, your profile says you have been in AK for 8 years. I was a Brown Belt for 10 years and never tested because the belt color to me is not important. Mr. Joe and I had a closed door talk 8 years ago when you started about why he changed it to 15 techs per belt level. Back then I understood why he did it. I DO know how much effort and money went into making the videos as I know when he started the old videos but dropped them. As a 3rd Brown back then I was helping people with their BB testing because I came from the 24 system which made me lack in my training and also made me, dare I say, devalue the belt structure there. The Cockeysville school was not totally dropped for financial reasons. Maybe for the head school as the enrollments were dropping. I also know the clientele at the Pikesville school. 

"Repetition and so forth"? Gee follow the web of knowledge and the understanding of opposites and reverses. 

"If people are true martial artists they should be able to figure things out for themselves and not have it spoonfed to them." So what you are saying here is that students should be able to learn from themselves? If that is the case why should they be locked into a timeframe of classes when they can "figure" it out for themselves? So did you learn all of the principles from yourself? Do you even know all of the principles enough to teach them? Don't get me wrong, this is not an attack on your character. There are so many principles to every technique and a lot of instructors do not even understand that each and every move has a reason and principle for that move. 

"I am one of the two head instructors there and I can say that there is nothing wrong with the instruction." HI as in the belt ranking, which by the way if I am correct according to Infinite Insights 3rd is Instructor, I will have to dig that out and look it up as that is one more thing I forgot. Are you saying there are no 4ths and above there teaching? I can not remember what rank Richard is, I thought it was 4th.

"Would you all like to know why Mr. Joe did what he has done." Sure explain this one as you opened it up with an explanative question but avoided answering it. An easier way of learning the technique is to break the technique down itself with practical applications, explanations of the why and repetition. Not by removing a technique when a student says "This is hard to remember". So what do you do for the majority of the students that can get the 5 techs per belt level down in two weeks and can go through a good motion of the tech in a month? Test them every other month or bore them and have them drop from the rolls?

and none of you know how much money they have been making and how many students they have gotten from them, Lets see, I got the camp itinerary letter in the mail, BTW has been only the 3rd or 4th mailing since 1993 as a WKKA member, and noticed the content and the price of the certification for that Thursday. Thursday seems to pack more learning in than the whole weekends camp. So for $1,200 I go through all of the tech levels, sets and forms I will be a certified WKKA instructor. Wait, I thought my belt certificates were the certification of teaching, and the continuation of learning and improving myself, not a one day learn everything you can about the new curriculum. So if a dummy like me can do that then so can all of those students from the NAPMA convention. 

I will be the first to admit that I hate a few of the techniques and see no practical application of it. But I also am willing to admit that the technique that I may hate goes into the understanding of it's family grouping technique. I am not particularly fond of "Blinding Sacrifice" being moved into the level one area and it being cut down to two moves which are completely linear.

Sorry for my rant and James I, for my sake, hope you missed me at the camp as I messed up one tech as my "dummy" threw a different attack that I had to adjust and come up with a defense on the spot, which I thought that was what EPAK was all about, and I knew I messed up a little on Long 5 but didn't stop and kept on truckin'. Nerves are a b****.

Sorry but I wrote this at 3 yesterday just as my connection went down and now just came up so I thought I would still post it.


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3

RichK said:
			
		

> James, now now, BREATHE. I normally do not pipe in but just read many posts, especially from Mr. Hawkins here who can put into application what he types..........Sorry for my rant and James I, for my sake, hope you missed me at the camp as I messed up one tech as my "dummy" threw a different attack that I had to adjust and come up with a defense on the spot, which I thought that was what EPAK was all about, and I knew I messed up a little on Long 5 but didn't stop and kept on truckin'. Nerves are a b****.
> 
> Sorry but I wrote this at 3 yesterday just as my connection went down and now just came up so I thought I would still post it.


 
:Breathing Breathing: phew! ok got it. LOL. Man good post. And I don't think I saw your part of the test. The screw ups I saw were a lot more major than what you just described. I can see the difference between nerves slop. As much as I gave the benefit of the doubt when I mentioned nerves in an earlier post, most of what I saw actually fell in the slop category. And now you know why they're called "dummies" LOL. Wrong attack! bad dummy 

On a side note I'm moving my Kenpo from the current 24 technique curriculum I teach to a 9 technique system and spreading it all of the way to 10th degree. That way the students will always have new material to work on from now till Grandmaster.

I'm also starting a number of supplimental training programs such as:

K.R.A.P. - Kenpo Removing All Principles
I.D.I.O.T. - Insufficiently Designed Individually Operated Training
B.I.G. T.I.M.E. - Belt Is Guaranteed, Training Is Marginally Expected
V.I.D.E.O. - Very Inefficient Dollar Earning Operation
S.U.C.K.E.R. - Students Under Cash, Kenpo Equals Revenue


----------



## Ray

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> K.R.A.P. - Kenpo Removing All Principles
> I.D.I.O.T. - Insufficiently Designed Individually Operated Training
> B.I.G. T.I.M.E. - Belt Is Guaranteed, Training Is Marginally Expected
> V.I.D.E.O. - Very Inefficient Dollar Oriented Enterprise
> S.U.C.K.E.R. - Students Under Cash, Kenpo Equals Revenue


I belong to the S.E.A - Society to end acronyms.

I don't think the the limiting factor in "having new material" is how the cirriculum is spread out.  I think it's our own creativity in what we can find in the material we know. 

And there's a world of things to learn that can kenpo-related besides kenpo per se.


----------



## parkerkarate

Mr. Sparando only teaches there everywednesday for the rest of the time it is myself and richard that are the highest ranking on the mat.


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3

Ray said:
			
		

> I belong to the S.E.A - Society to end acronyms.
> 
> I don't think the the limiting factor in "having new material" is how the cirriculum is spread out. I think it's our own creativity in what we can find in the material we know.
> 
> And there's a world of things to learn that can kenpo-related besides kenpo per se.


 
Lost me here Ray, and I screwed up one of my acronyms


----------



## Flying Crane

RichK said:
			
		

> So what do you do for the majority of the students that can get the 5 techs per belt level down in two weeks and can go through a good motion of the tech in a month? Test them every other month or bore them and have them drop from the rolls?


 
I cannot comment on the curriculum as I don't know it, but this statement makes it sound like a lot of material is in there as filler, to give students something to do and keep them coming back and paying fees.  Is it a marketing ploy designed to keep people dependent?

A small number of techs that are solid, and that you are very good at, are much more valuable than a long list of techs that are poorly designed and/or you can't do well because of the volume and you are spread too thin...


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> I cannot comment on the curriculum as I don't know it, but this statement makes it sound like a lot of material is in there as filler, to give students something to do and keep them coming back and paying fees. Is it a marketing ploy designed to keep people dependent?
> 
> A small number of techs that are solid, and that you are very good at, are much more valuable than a long list of techs that are poorly designed and/or you can't do well because of the volume and you are spread too thin...


 
Here Crane I'll help if I can.  If I'm correct Tracy Kenpo has 400 techs or so.  Parker Kenpo has 154 - 160 depending on where you go.  In the 24 Technique Parker Kenpo system you learned all the material by 3rd Black and all Base techniques before 1st black.  then came the 16 or 15 technique systems that streatched it out to 5th Black.  Now comes this 5 - 10 per belt system that has people learning 60 techniques total (from the manuals I received) by Black Belt.  That's down from 154 to 60.  That's as much material (on paper) as my purple belts.  That's too far in some people's opinion, mine included.  It's not so much a stretching out of the material from what I've read there are a bunch of things omitted as well.


----------



## Flying Crane

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> Here Crane I'll help if I can. If I'm correct Tracy Kenpo has 400 techs or so. Parker Kenpo has 154 - 160 depending on where you go. In the 24 Technique Parker Kenpo system you learned all the material by 3rd Black and all Base techniques before 1st black. then came the 16 or 15 technique systems that streatched it out to 5th Black. Now comes this 5 - 10 per belt system that has people learning 60 techniques total (from the manuals I received) by Black Belt. That's down from 154 to 60. That's as much material (on paper) as my purple belts. That's too far in some people's opinion, mine included. It's not so much a stretching out of the material from what I've read there are a bunch of things omitted as well.


 
I understand where you are coming from, and I'm not trying to dog on anyones system esp. since I don't know it.  It was just that particular comment sounded very commercial.  If the techs are well designed and make sense and teach something valuable, then I am all for it, even if it is a lot.  If they are not well thought out and don't teach something of value, but they are still there, then it is filler and just used to keep people coming back and paying more money.

I am in no position to pass that judgement on a curriculum that I am not familiar with.  What caught my eye was simply how RichK stated what he stated.  I probably misunderstood what he meant, but it sounded like one business operator giving business advice to another business operator, instead of talking about solid martial arts, that's all.

My beef with quantitiy over quality lies with Tracys, which of course is where I come from and where my experience lies.  I have only very very limited familiarity with a little bit of EPAK, but in comparison of technique list numbers alone, it's entirely possible that EPAK has resolved the issue that I have with Tracys.

What Mr. Palanzo has done with his version of EPAK, or what was once EPAK, i am certainly in no position to comment on as I have no familiarity with it.  I just found RichK's comment odd, that's all, and wanted to point out what is sort of implied.


----------



## jfarnsworth

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> Probably the studio number, but I just PM'd you the studio phone and his cell phone as well as my own phone so you can definitely get a hold of him when you need to.


Got it, thanks. I'll try to catch him sometime before teaching at the studio. It might be the best.


----------



## RichK

Flying Crane, my typed words are worse than my spoken words so I am sure you did not understand...LOL. In the KSP system there are now 5 techs per belt level. Originally 32 per that stopped at, I think, Green and then 24 per which I learned which stopped at 2nd Brown and then 16 per which stops at 1st Black. What I mean by stopped is that is where the base technique ends and the extensions to the base techniques pick up. 154 base plus 96 extensions. All three curriculums are teaching the same thing but just changing the length of material. The techniques were created in a way that built upon body mechanics and gave the mind different "what-if" scenarios. Also the universal pattern that Mr Parker created was designed to be used as a teaching method broken down by different attacks. Go ahead Doc correct me on that, I never claimed to be the smartest cookie in the jar. I had two students that picked up on the new curriculum and were wizzing through it. One was a male adult, BB in TKD and the other a female adult with no previous experience. I was always coming up with filler material because I could tell they were getting bored with the new curriculum. And BTW my "filler" material is not just used to fill, I use it to expound upon the mind. A couple other students I cringed and watched as they were "given" belts because they could do the motion but had no clue as to why. If students get bored because they are only learning a couple of "moves" they are going to go elsewhere. Not a business owners advice but an instuctors watchful eye. For example my daughter is in all honors classes this year and last. Before that she was lazy as she never had to work at a goal or self fulfillment. Same principle.
Crane, do not worry about the passing judgement on curriculum comment. From you I do not take that as a negative. My background is in TKD, Aikido and Ju Jitsu also with my brother being an instructor in bujiken so I have a pretty good idea of varying curriculums.
I am against the new curriculumm but you know what that is ME. If anyone likes it than that is their perogitive.


----------



## Flying Crane

RichK said:
			
		

> Flying Crane, my typed words are worse than my spoken words so I am sure you did not understand...LOL. In the KSP system there are now 5 techs per belt level. Originally 32 per that stopped at, I think, Green and then 24 per which I learned which stopped at 2nd Brown and then 16 per which stops at 1st Black. What I mean by stopped is that is where the base technique ends and the extensions to the base techniques pick up. 154 base plus 96 extensions. All three curriculums are teaching the same thing but just changing the length of material. The techniques were created in a way that built upon body mechanics and gave the mind different "what-if" scenarios. Also the universal pattern that Mr Parker created was designed to be used as a teaching method broken down by different attacks. Go ahead Doc correct me on that, I never claimed to be the smartest cookie in the jar. I had two students that picked up on the new curriculum and were wizzing through it. One was a male adult, BB in TKD and the other a female adult with no previous experience. I was always coming up with filler material because I could tell they were getting bored with the new curriculum. And BTW my "filler" material is not just used to fill, I use it to expound upon the mind. A couple other students I cringed and watched as they were "given" belts because they could do the motion but had no clue as to why. If students get bored because they are only learning a couple of "moves" they are going to go elsewhere. Not a business owners advice but an instuctors watchful eye. For example my daughter is in all honors classes this year and last. Before that she was lazy as she never had to work at a goal or self fulfillment. Same principle.
> Crane, do not worry about the passing judgement on curriculum comment. From you I do not take that as a negative. My background is in TKD, Aikido and Ju Jitsu also with my brother being an instructor in bujiken so I have a pretty good idea of varying curriculums.
> I am against the new curriculumm but you know what that is ME. If anyone likes it than that is their perogitive.


 
Understood, I didn't mean any offense and glad to see it sounds like none was taken.  Without knowing specifics, I have a general understanding of how techs and extensions are organized in EPAK so I can follow what you are describing in a general sort of way.  I also agree, a teacher should keep students interested and learning, so long as what is being presented is quality.  

My first reaction upon seeing how EPAK is structured was that it too is really shortened, compared to Tracys, and they must be missing out on a bunch of stuff.  Now, years later, after thinking about it A LOT and doing my own revisions on the Tracys system, I am no longer convinced of this.  The whole "quality over quantity" issue.

Since I don't know Palanzo's shortened curriculum, I'll ask a quick question.  Are the techs solid, or foolish, in your opinion?  Again, getting back to the quality over quantity thing.  It seems that if the techs are well designed, you could get a lot of mileage out of them in the classroom, even if they are simple, and even if there are few of them.  Often the simple stuff works the best, and is what you end up relying upon.  Simple techs can be worked in lots of creative ways to really develop that particular skill.  They can also be used as a conceptual starting point for students to develop their own creativity.  Begin with the base tech, then start creating all kinds of variables and see what the student comes up with, while sticking to the concepts of the base tech.  How many really different attacks and scenarios can the same basic tech be effectively used in?

The quality over quantity issue is one that I wrestle with a lot.  On the one hand, you don't want to eliminate anything that is quality, but on the other hand, it is possible to become overloaded with things, even if they are all quality.  It can become hard to know where it is best to draw the line.  Most people solve the problem by just keeping the system that they have learned, with the belief (whether right or wrong, or simply right for YOU, regardless of how others see it) that it is all good and well structured.  Others look to shake things up a bit and see if they can figure out a better way.  Some add, some delete, some change, some do all.  Either way can be good, even excellent, depending on the person.

Again, the original comment struck me as a bit odd, and I had a feeling you didn't mean it that way.  It's just how it read to me, so I thought I'd give you a poke in the ribs a bit over it.  I'll just sort of shut up now, since we're discussing curriculum that I don't have experience with.


----------



## Russell Palanzo

I thought I could clarify a few things.

The intent of the revised WKKA DVD curriculum is simple: to standardize the Kenpo curriculum among member schools in order to increase the consistency and quality of Kenpo training. The new curriculum is also proving to be an excellent _teaching aid_ for non-kenpo schools that are interested in a solid self defense program, and cannot train 3 days a week for 7 years.

The system is not being "watered down". The entire EPAK system is still there. The information has been redistributed. Category completion and advanced techniques and principles have been placed in the Black Belt ranks for students that really what the information. Yes, the testing requirements have been reduced, but this was done so beginners can spend more time working on their basics, while progressing. If a Kenpo Black Belt can perform all 60 techniques up to Black Betl in the revised curriculum, they are going to be a good Black Belt. It still takes a student 3 1/2-5 years to achieve a Black Belt at our school.

As for my father's passion... Kenpo is his life. He still goes through all the techniques first thing at the school on most mornings. He spent an entire year producing the new Kenpo DVD's. He is 62 with two artificial hips and surgically repaired shoulders and wrists. He did not have to undertake the project, and he probably should not have. But he did. Why? Money? He has been running schools for almost 40 years, I can assure you he doesn't need the money. He wants to create something that can be passed on from generation to generation. He wants Kenpo, the way he learned it from Ed Parker to spread. My father is the most passionate martial artist I know.

Please do not hesitate to contact me if you have any questions regarding the WKKA certification programs, the revised curriculum, or anything.

Respectfully,
Russell Palanzo
russell@wkka.org
(410) 484-7122


----------



## Doc

Russell Palanzo said:
			
		

> I thought I could clarify a few things.
> 
> The intent of the revised WKKA DVD curriculum is simple: to standardize the Kenpo curriculum among member schools in order to increase the consistency and quality of Kenpo training. The new curriculum is also proving to be an excellent _teaching aid_ for non-kenpo schools that are interested in a solid self defense program, and cannot train 3 days a week for 7 years.
> 
> The system is not being "watered down". The entire EPAK system is still there. The information has been redistributed. Category completion and advanced techniques and principles have been placed in the Black Belt ranks for students that really what the information. Yes, the testing requirements have been reduced, but this was done so beginners can spend more time working on their basics, while progressing. If a Kenpo Black Belt can perform all 60 techniques up to Black Betl in the revised curriculum, they are going to be a good Black Belt. It still takes a student 3 1/2-5 years to achieve a Black Belt at our school.
> 
> As for my father's passion... Kenpo is his life. He still goes through all the techniques first thing at the school on most mornings. He spent an entire year producing the new Kenpo DVD's. He is 62 with two artificial hips and surgically repaired shoulders and wrists. He did not have to undertake the project, and he probably should not have. But he did. Why? Money? He has been running schools for almost 40 years, I can assure you he doesn't need the money. He wants to create something that can be passed on from generation to generation. He wants Kenpo, the way he learned it from Ed Parker to spread. My father is the most passionate martial artist I know.
> 
> Please do not hesitate to contact me if you have any questions regarding the WKKA certification programs, the revised curriculum, or anything.
> 
> Respectfully,
> Russell Palanzo
> russell@wkka.org
> (410) 484-7122


Tell Joe I said, "Wazzzuppppppppp."


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Russell Palanzo said:
			
		

> I thought I could clarify a few things...
> 
> Please do not hesitate to contact me if you have any questions regarding the WKKA certification programs, the revised curriculum, or anything.
> 
> Respectfully,
> Russell Palanzo
> russell@wkka.org
> (410) 484-7122


 
Since the fire you are quenching started on this thread, I am hoping you will see the sense in my limiting my ideas to this thread, as opposed to seeking you in personal contact.

First, thank you for your reply. Many are questioned in these forums, but few respond. I think your willingness to enter the crucible is admirable, particularly considering the amount of flak offerred by so many (myself included) kenpoists about abbreviated programs supported by video. 

As for the surgeries...my sincerest blessings to your father; I'm in line for a total shoulder reconstruction, and am sure it will affect my kenpo.

For the modified cirriculum; there is an inherent contradiction in saying "preserve Ed Parkers Kenpo" in the same body of text as "rearranging category completion to later belts; smaller number of tech's; etc." That is, simply stated, not the kenpo that Mr. Parker left behind, en masse. That is not to say it ain't potentially good kenpo -- I personally subscribe to a modified system, believing the 154 to contain much fluff built around concepts often better explored as concepts than rote-memorized as techniques. But I do not represent the corpus as Ed Parkers. I will give him distinguished credit for subtleties in the basics, and for the revolutionary concepts and ideas that drive the movement exploration and execution; but I will not counter his last published wishes for the system by saying, "This is EPAK".

And for the record, I hope you didn't inherit his chin, as I did MY fathers.

Best Regards,

Dave Crouch, DC
Santa Rosa, CA
707-538-1134
drdavecrouchdc@yahoo.com


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> .......For the modified cirriculum; there is an inherent contradiction in saying "preserve Ed Parkers Kenpo" in the same body of text as "rearranging category completion to later belts; smaller number of tech's; etc." That is, simply stated, not the kenpo that Mr. Parker left behind, en masse. That is not to say it ain't potentially good kenpo -- I personally subscribe to a modified system, *believing the 154 to contain much fluff built around concepts often better explored as concepts than rote-memorized as techniques.* But I do not represent the corpus as Ed Parkers. I will give him distinguished credit for subtleties in the basics, and for the revolutionary concepts and ideas that drive the movement exploration and execution; but I will not counter his last published wishes for the system by saying, "This is EPAK".


 
I almost thought I was the only one who saw that minor contradiction but along comes Dave to spoil it for me  And I can concur *here* to degree



			
				Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> And for the record, I hope you didn't inherit his chin, as I did MY fathers.


 
LOL!!!!!


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## hongkongfooey

I guess my beef with the whole thing is the video training. I can see a person supplementing their system with outside material. That is fine nothing wrong with that. But, to learn the system, go to a school and receive live instruction from a person who can correct mistakes and offer advice.  It pains me to think that a Tae Kwon Do school could be teaching American Kenpo that they learned from a video. They may learn to mimic the motion, but I doubt they would learn much else from a DVD.


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## Flying Crane

Russell Palanzo said:
			
		

> I thought I could clarify a few things.
> 
> The intent of the revised WKKA DVD curriculum is simple: to standardize the Kenpo curriculum among member schools in order to increase the consistency and quality of Kenpo training. The new curriculum is also proving to be an excellent _teaching aid_ for non-kenpo schools that are interested in a solid self defense program, and cannot train 3 days a week for 7 years.
> 
> The system is not being "watered down". The entire EPAK system is still there. The information has been redistributed. Category completion and advanced techniques and principles have been placed in the Black Belt ranks for students that really what the information. Yes, the testing requirements have been reduced, but this was done so beginners can spend more time working on their basics, while progressing. If a Kenpo Black Belt can perform all 60 techniques up to Black Betl in the revised curriculum, they are going to be a good Black Belt. It still takes a student 3 1/2-5 years to achieve a Black Belt at our school.
> 
> As for my father's passion... Kenpo is his life. He still goes through all the techniques first thing at the school on most mornings. He spent an entire year producing the new Kenpo DVD's. He is 62 with two artificial hips and surgically repaired shoulders and wrists. He did not have to undertake the project, and he probably should not have. But he did. Why? Money? He has been running schools for almost 40 years, I can assure you he doesn't need the money. He wants to create something that can be passed on from generation to generation. He wants Kenpo, the way he learned it from Ed Parker to spread. My father is the most passionate martial artist I know.
> 
> Please do not hesitate to contact me if you have any questions regarding the WKKA certification programs, the revised curriculum, or anything.
> 
> Respectfully,
> Russell Palanzo
> russell@wkka.org
> (410) 484-7122


 
Thank you for that post.  I appreciate the input.


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## Kenpo17

I am proud to say that Mr. Palanzo is my instructor, and I think the video's on the WKKA website are amazing.  Mr. Palanzo being the President of the WKKA, I know I am going to and have been recieving great instruction from him for 10 years. Anyway, he uses alot of those videos such as Falcons of Force, and Mace of Agression to help promote the WKKA.


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## Twin Fist

congrats on an almost 3 year necrothread


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## LuckyKBoxer

Kenpo17 said:


> I am proud to say that Mr. Palanzo is my instructor, and I think the video's on the WKKA website are amazing. Mr. Palanzo being the President of the WKKA, I know I am going to and have been recieving great instruction from him for 10 years. Anyway, he uses alot of those videos such as Falcons of Force, and Mace of Agression to help promote the WKKA.


 
Are you serious? I saw the test thread on KenpoTalk, You still have not answered the questions asked of you. I actually was at the supershow that was originally mentioned in this thread. I wore my Kenpo TShirt proudly, until I saw The WKKA demo featuring Joe Palanzo. That is still the only time in my life I was ashamed of Kenpo. I had someone ask me if that was the same thing I did, I said "No I do Kenpo, I don't know what that was"


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## kenpo3631

NOZR1 said:


> I'm wondering why in 5 swords that he teaches to slightly cock the outward handsword when that is not moving from point of origin? :idunno:


 
Can't get the darn vids to play...:-(

Who knows? Maybe his blocking arm is extended too far out to get good travel for an affective strike?


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## kenpo3631

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> probably because the point of origin "rule" ranks second to the "effective execution rule". Meaning, if a weapon won't have enough power from it's point of origin it must be cocked first and then delivered. No weapon is to be delivered if it will not have its desired effect. Point of origin also does not mean a straight line. There are circular points of origin as well.


 
If the right arm is in the proper position and not too far stretched then re-cocking shouldn't be necessary. The right chop (slicing chop) as I was taught, is somewhat a minor move to set up the major move, that being the straight finger thrust to the eyes with the left (or heelpalm depending on how you were taught it)? 

I agree with your observation about the points of origin.


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## Kenpo17

These are some of the best Kenpo videos I have seen!! Mr. Palanzo deserves way more credit than a lot of people are giving him on this forum.


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## Hollywood1340

Kenpo17 said:


> These are some of the best Kenpo videos I have seen!! Mr. Palanzo deserves way more credit than a lot of people are giving him on this forum.



What other kenpo vids have you seen?


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## yorkshirelad

Kenpo17 said:


> These are some of the best Kenpo videos I have seen!! Mr. Palanzo deserves way more credit than a lot of people are giving him on this forum.


Hm....so you're saying they are better than the Tatum vids? I don't believe it. I've seen Mr Palanzo on youtube in the 'Expert Village' teaching videos and he doesn't come close to Tatum. No offense to him, but I've seen pretty much all the Kenpo vids on the market, (except Al Farnsworth's,but something 's telling me I'm not missing much there) and they all pale in relation to Tatum's vids. They are a great reference.
If they really are the best videos you've ever seen, then I suggest you contact Tatum and buy a couple of his, you'll truly be impressed.


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## Twin Fist

Mr Palanzo, in his day was a truely gifted kenpoist

today, his knowledge may still be intact but his ability to move is hampered, and taping himself instead of his senior students doesnt do him any good.

I dont want to sound like a jerk here, but if Palanzo is the best you have seen, you havnt looked very far.

google these names + Kenpo:

Tatum
Mills
Chapel
Speakman
seminario and serrano


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## MJS

Kenpo17 said:


> These are some of the best Kenpo videos I have seen!! Mr. Palanzo deserves way more credit than a lot of people are giving him on this forum.


 
I will admit, there are some crappy Kenpo vids out there, however, there are many quality ones.  Not sure what you're looking at, but you may want to look again.  In addition to the names that Twin Fist mentioned, I'd also suggest looking at the ones by James Hawkins.  While he isn't a Kenpo Senior, he has some damn good vids out there.


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## Flying Crane

Kenpo17 said:


> These are some of the best Kenpo videos I have seen!! Mr. Palanzo deserves way more credit than a lot of people are giving him on this forum.


 
Is it the videos, or the quality of the kenpo that you are interested in?  They are not necessarily the same thing.

If you feel you get good instruction and the system you train in is high quality, then that is important.  Whether or not it looks good on video, or whether or not Mr. Palanzo looks good on video, or whether or not the video production is high quality, really ought to be irrelevant.

I've seen Tracys technique reference videos, since I train in that system.  They were made around the early 1980s, and Al Tracy did most of the demonstrations in them.  They are really meant to be a reference for people who have already learned the system.  It is obvious that very little was invested in production of the videos, having a very "home video" look to them, not at all professional or flashy or fancy or Hollywood-esque.  Al does not do a flashy or fancy demonstration of the material either.  He works thru the techs and explains what is going on.  Any outsider who is looking for "entertaining" kenpo, or "flashy" kenpo, or some kind of Hollywood-worthy production and action-movie presenation, would be disappointed with these videos.  There is nothing of the flash and presentation that people like Mr. Tatum have put into their videos (from what little I've seen of them, at least).  But the quality of the system is solid, and that is what matters.  Not the quality or presentation on video.

So I think you need to decide for yourself if the quality of your system and the quality of the training you are getting is worthwhile.  Not how impressive it looks on video.

Just my two cents.


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## Kenpo17

Mr. Palanzo is my instructor, and he is really great, just because some videos he made to you may not be great, he still is a 10th Dan. Senior instructor and does deserve respect, not all this bs on here about him.


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## Hollywood1340

With all due respect to one of the Seniors of the Art if I put on a 10th, do I instantly deserve respect? Don't confuse RANK with RESPECT. Rank can be given, respect must be earned. And if you're willing to put it out so that people can see it, be prepared for both sides of the coin. Rank does not nor will it ever dictate my opinion on what I see, nor my comments as such. When or how I say it may be different but I don't care if you're a yellow or a 5th. I enjoy seeing your respect for Mr. Palonzo, but it would seem some of the "bs" on this site may have merit. Take it or leave it.


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## Twin Fist

with all due respect, GM Palanzo  just doesnt move that well anymore. Thats a fact. He should stop taping himself.

that said, i KNOW he is a master instructor, and i know that in his day, he was a terrific kenpoka

dont mistake legit critique for a lack of respect.



Kenpo17 said:


> Mr. Palanzo is my instructor, and he is really great, just because some videos he made to you may not be great, he still is a 10th Dan. Senior instructor and does deserve respect, not all this bs on here about him.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Twin Fist said:


> with all due respect, GM Palanzo just doesnt move that well anymore. Thats a fact. He should stop taping himself.
> 
> that said, i KNOW he is a master instructor, and i know that in his day, he was a terrific kenpoka
> 
> dont mistake legit critique for a lack of respect.


 
As the official voice of dissent, allow me to comment on the lousy kenpo Palanzo has posted on expert village and youtube. Awful. I am sure Mr. 17 feels a great deal of respect for his instructor; this is as it should be -- you really have no business training under someone you cannot find respect for.

That being said, the level of expertise demonstrated in the videos I have seen is bloody awful. Moreover, he is one of the worst out there when it comes to inflated claims about successorship. His website and marketing hype has been filled with "Mr. Parker was gonna make me da bomb, but he died before he could" junk.

So...maybe, despite all of this, he's an excellent instructor, and we will be able to see that in the quality of his students. But wait!!!! We have video on youtube of his ex-right hand man, and he is worse than Palanzo. (which is strange to see, because Steve moved a lot better over the years -- you're supposed to improve in this stuff over time, not degrade horribly).





 
Wanna know where he got that awful mode of moving and lousy interpretation of kenpo?





 
The Emperor has no clothes. Deal with it.

Now...compare the wat these guys move, to Mr. Parker:





 
or people who actually were his protoge's, and not at a distance...




 ... notice the body moving as a unified whole, strikes lashing out as centripidel whips from a central core, moving as extensions of "Directional Harmony" (look it up in the kenpo encyclopedia if you don't know what it is).

All lacking in Palanzo, and his long time student. Now...if there is video evidence available to suggest there is a level of skill and talent not otherwise evident in the available resources, I am certainly open to watching it, and re-evaluating my position.

But until then...if it smells like poop, feels like poop, and tastes like poop, well, Jabornik, good thing we no step in it, Ja?

Dave


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## Twin Fist

i was trying to be nice dude.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Twin Fist said:


> i was trying to be nice dude.


 
You're a better man than I am, sir.


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## hongkongfooey

Kenpo17 said:


> These are some of the best Kenpo videos I have seen!! Mr. Palanzo deserves way more credit than a lot of people are giving him on this forum.


 
Are you sure that your eyes weren't closed?


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## MattJ

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> That being said, the level of expertise demonstrated in the videos I have seen is bloody awful. Moreover, he is one of the worst out there when it comes to inflated claims about successorship. His website and marketing hype has been filled with "Mr. Parker was gonna make me da bomb, but he died before he could" junk.


 
FWIW, I was a group student at Mr, Palanzo's school in Baltimore in the mid 1980's, and a semi-private student in the early 1990's, so I have my bias, LOL. I agree totally with Kembudo regarding Palanzo's inflated claims, noting however, that most of the other seniors (Planas, Trejo, Tatum, etc) went through similar "inflationary" periods, and I don't see where their claims are more substantial than Palanzo's. With the exception of Tatum, of course.

As far as his movement, he has suffered for many years (from at least the early 90's) from a bad hip (or knee? I forget exactly), which caused his movement to deteriorate quite a bit from when he was younger. I am not arguing that he is presenting himself well in the vids - he isn't. But I don't think it's because he is a terrible martial artist. I have personally witnessed him launch a 6'3" training partner across the room, and almost out a plate glass window at the Cockeysville school. I have also felt his power first hand. His technique may not look all that great, but he's got it where he needs it. He was able to impart substantial improvement to not only my physical technique, but also my understanding of the techniques themselves. 



> So...maybe, despite all of this, he's an excellent instructor, and we will be able to see that in the quality of his students. But wait!!!! We have video on youtube of his ex-right hand man, and he is worse than Palanzo. (which is strange to see, because Steve moved a lot better over the years -- you're supposed to improve in this stuff over time, not degrade horribly).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wanna know where he got that awful mode of moving and lousy interpretation of kenpo?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Emperor has no clothes. Deal with it.


 
Palanzo had other seniors that moved very well - Stuart Hankin, Ben Cohen, and Karl Petro for a few. 



> Now...compare the wat these guys move, to Mr. Parker:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> or people who actually were his protoge's, and not at a distance...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ... notice the body moving as a unified whole, strikes lashing out as centripidel whips from a central core, moving as extensions of "Directional Harmony" (look it up in the kenpo encyclopedia if you don't know what it is).


 
I agree that the distance did cause some dulling of technique, compared to our west-coast brothers. Mr Palanzo did strive to get Mr Parker to come to his school as often as he could. 



> All lacking in Palanzo, and his long time student. Now...if there is video evidence available to suggest there is a level of skill and talent not otherwise evident in the available resources, I am certainly open to watching it, and re-evaluating my position.
> 
> But until then...if it smells like poop, feels like poop, and tastes like poop, well, Jabornik, good thing we no step in it, Ja?
> 
> Dave


 
All lacking in these videos, I could agree. But not completely lacking from the man. I personally thought that Tatum's video series was my favorite.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

MattJ said:


> FWIW, I was a group student at Mr, Palanzo's school in Baltimore in the mid 1980's, and a semi-private student in the early 1990's, so I have my bias, LOL. I agree totally with Kembudo regarding Palanzo's inflated claims, noting however, that most of the other seniors (Planas, Trejo, Tatum, etc) went through similar "inflationary" periods, and I don't see where their claims are more substantial than Palanzo's. With the exception of Tatum, of course.
> 
> As far as his movement, he has suffered for many years (from at least the early 90's) from a bad hip (or knee? I forget exactly), which caused his movement to deteriorate quite a bit from when he was younger. I am not arguing that he is presenting himself well in the vids - he isn't. But I don't think it's because he is a terrible martial artist. I have personally witnessed him launch a 6'3" training partner across the room, and almost out a plate glass window at the Cockeysville school. I have also felt his power first hand. His technique may not look all that great, but he's got it where he needs it. He was able to impart substantial improvement to not only my physical technique, but also my understanding of the techniques themselves.
> 
> 
> 
> Palanzo had other seniors that moved very well - Stuart Hankin, Ben Cohen, and Karl Petro for a few.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree that the distance did cause some dulling of technique, compared to our west-coast brothers. Mr Palanzo did strive to get Mr Parker to come to his school as often as he could.
> 
> 
> 
> All lacking in these videos, I could agree. But not completely lacking from the man. I personally thought that Tatum's video series was my favorite.


 
Thank you for your input and honesty. Admittedly, I have not seen the other gentlemen you mentioned. One instructor of my own was infamous for having turned out some really stellar black belts, and some really awful ones: I know that one apple does not define the tree, and thank you for opening the aperture on this issue as related to Mr. Palanzo.

Mr. Palanzo, in his marketing rhetoric, refers back to an article in Black Belt magazine where Mr. Parker referred to him and a couple other guys as his protoge's of the day. Not mentioned in that article was the tendency of Mr. P to have multiple protoge's, some public a business members of his associatioon, some just people he liked to teach. Some students paid for his services, some never did. 

I would certainly count Larry as a protoge -- his contract included regular lessons with the old man. Frank was the main professor at the Pasadena school for many years, and he was Mr. P's travelling companion and uke for a spell. Doesn;t sound innately interesting, until you realize that just talking kenpo with Mr. P over lunch could give you enough material to work on for months, with the results infusing all of your kenpo. Can you imagine killing flight time and hotel time with him? 

And for all the famous ones, there were unfamous ones -- one of my favorite examples is Dennis Conatser. Went to him already a black belt, but asked Mr. P to show him how he wanted the system done, starting at Yellow. Speakman went on to be famous, while guys like Dennis and Frank have wealths of knowledge, but nobody goes out of their ways to find these guys and pick their brains. They just sit quietly by, watching the famous ones claim to be kings, and daddy's only favorites.

And I agree about the Tatum tapes. While I always fun on the reverb thing he does in them, he demonstrates (but doesn't directly teach) some of the movement "isms" of Mr. Parkers that made a massive difference in Mr. P's own kenpo...rotational torque pieces, orbital switches, reverse action paths, built in multiplicities, etc. Something Mr. parker often did was double or triple throw a single strike in a combo...like throw the first outward handsword in 5 Swords 3 times in a row before moving on to the palm heel. After 38 years at this stuff, I'm only just starting to be able to "echo" moves like that, while maintaining back-up mass in directional harmony. Lotsa layers to this stuff, and sometimes it's really frickin' hard to cover all the bases.


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## Milt G.

Hello,

Sadly, many of the Kenpo seniors have difficulty moving as they once did.  A sign of getting older, it seems.  The body just begins to wear out with hard work and age.
We all know that Kenpo, good Kenpo, requires a great deal of hard work.  Add to that 50, or so, years of study and one tends to slow down a bit.  Seems it does not get better after more time.
If they only knew in the 60's what working out like they did would do to their body over time, perhaps they would have trained a little differently.
I know I would have.
Many are taking a much deserved rest.
On the positive side, there are many Kenpo ground floor seniors still out there "giving it hell"...  Truly a pleasure to see!

Thank you,
Milt G.


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