# Retail Outlets that do not allow Concealed Weapons



## Lisa (Nov 2, 2007)

While traveling this summer I happened across a notice on the doors of the Mall of America stating that do not allow people to carry concealed weapons on their premises.

When you see notices, do you boycott that facility?  What do you believe is the reasoning behind the rules of these facilities?

Curious, I am.


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## Cruentus (Nov 2, 2007)

I try to boycott them. Luckily, I have yet to run into one in Michigan, even though I know they exist.

Their reasoning? There usually isn't any; just anti-gun illogic.


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## Lisa (Nov 2, 2007)

Cruentus said:


> I try to boycott them. Luckily, I have yet to run into one in Michigan, even though I know they exist.
> 
> Their reasoning? There usually isn't any; just anti-gun illogic.



I seriously wonder how many people ignore the request and carry anyways.


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## Blindside (Nov 2, 2007)

Lisa said:


> While traveling this summer I happened across a notice on the doors of the Mall of America stating that do not allow people to carry concealed weapons on their premises.
> 
> When you see notices, do you boycott that facility? What do you believe is the reasoning behind the rules of these facilities?
> 
> Curious, I am.


 
Trolley Square in Salt Lake City is posted as "no weapons," obviously it did nothing to deter the shooter, what did deter the situation was an off-duty cop who failed to follow the posted signs and was carrying concealed.

Also, depending on which state you are in those signs may or may not actually have any weight of law behind them.

Lamont


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## Cruentus (Nov 2, 2007)

Lisa said:


> I seriously wonder how many people ignore the request and carry anyways.



No comment!


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## Brian R. VanCise (Nov 2, 2007)

Blindside said:


> Also, depending on which state you are in those signs may or may not actually have any weight of law behind them.
> 
> Lamont


 
Lamont is definately right on here in that how does a retailer rule supercede a State License? :erg: Now if you were employed by the retailer they have every right to enforce you not having weapons concealed but as a customer that would be a real tough sell in a court of law.


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## Lisa (Nov 2, 2007)

Cruentus said:


> No comment!



someone say something?  :uhyeah:


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## Carol (Nov 2, 2007)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Lamont is definately right on here in that how does a retailer rule supercede a State License? :erg: Now if you were employed by the retailer they have every right to enforce you not having weapons concealed but as a customer that would be a real tough sell in a court of law.



the laws vary from state to state, but a  retailer generally can't prosecute weapons charges for a customer that carries on their premises.  However, give that it is private property, they can ask a person to leave.

How would they know who to ask?  They would have to know who is carrying...and with a properly holstered sidearm, that is impossible to tell.  

Concealed means n one should know you have it...IMO, these rules are likely inspired by people that got spooked by sloppy carry habits.


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## Lisa (Nov 2, 2007)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Lamont is definately right on here in that how does a retailer rule supercede a State License? :erg: Now if you were employed by the retailer they have every right to enforce you not having weapons concealed but as a customer that would be a real tough sell in a court of law.



Now that is a good question.  I wonder about that myself.

And what happens when a maniac opens fire and someone with a concealed permit shoots him in a retail area that has that rule?  What will happen to that person?


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## Andy Moynihan (Nov 2, 2007)

Lisa said:


> I seriously wonder how many people ignore the request and carry anyways.


 

I'm afraid I must preemptively confess to disobedience of any store's particular policy I may encounter which does not preclude MA state law which says I can, sorry.

Unless it is a place specifically forbidden on the state's or Federal govt's books( Federal property, military installation, bank, post office, depending on the state, maybe police stations, depending on the state, bars, and so on), they haven't a legal leg to stand on. They can ask you to leave( assuming they are patting you down for weapons and see one, which is a whole nother legal can of worms, such as in several cases in my past where searching for my CCW piece would have been tantamount to indecent assault)), and lose a customer, perhaps several more as a result, but that's about it.


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## Cruentus (Nov 2, 2007)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Lamont is definately right on here in that how does a retailer rule supercede a State License? :erg: Now if you were employed by the retailer they have every right to enforce you not having weapons concealed but as a customer that would be a real tough sell in a court of law.



It brings up the interesting argument regarding private property. Private property owners can request that you don't bring in your firearms. Disobeying that rule, however, is not breaking the law (provided you are lawfully carrying); it is just disobeying their wishes, of which all they can do at that point is ask you to leave. The hilarity of it all is that by carrying "concealed,"  they wouldn't, and don't, know the difference anyway.


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## Andy Moynihan (Nov 2, 2007)

Cruentus said:


> It brings up the interesting argument regarding private property. Private property owners can request that you don't bring in your firearms. Disobeying that rule, however, is not breaking the law (provided you are lawfully carrying); it is just disobeying their wishes, of which all they can do at that point is ask you to leave. The hilarity of it all is that by carrying "concealed," they wouldn't, and don't, know the difference anyway.


 
But then, we could also ask--can a retail store, in a mall, be considered "private" property since by nature of being a "public" place of business during business hours, it, by definition extends an open invitation to all during those hours?


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## Brian R. VanCise (Nov 2, 2007)

Andy Moynihan said:


> But then, we could also ask--can a retail store, in a mall, be considered "private" property since by nature of being a "public" place of business during business hours, it, by definition extends an open invitation to all during those hours?


 
Well under legal law it will always be considered private property.


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## Andy Moynihan (Nov 2, 2007)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Well under legal law it will always be considered private property.


 

OK, as long as illegal law doesn't come into it


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## thardey (Nov 2, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> the laws vary from state to state, but a  retailer generally can't prosecute weapons charges for a customer that carries on their premises.  However, give that it is private property, they can ask a person to leave.
> 
> How would they know who to ask?  They would have to know who is carrying...and with a properly holstered sidearm, that is impossible to tell.
> 
> Concealed means n one should know you have it...IMO, these rules are likely inspired by people that got spooked by sloppy carry habits.





Andy Moynihan said:


> I'm afraid I must preemptively confess to disobedience of any store's particular policy I may encounter which does not preclude MA state law which says I can, sorry.
> 
> Unless it is a place specifically forbidden on the state's or Federal govt's books( Federal property, military installation, bank, post office, depending on the state, maybe police stations, depending on the state, bars, and so on), they haven't a legal leg to stand on. They can ask you to leave( assuming they are patting you down for weapons and see one, which is a whole nother legal can of worms, such as in several cases in my past where searching for my CCW piece would have been tantamount to indecent assault)), and lose a customer, perhaps several more as a result, but that's about it.





Cruentus said:


> It brings up the interesting argument regarding private property. Private property owners can request that you don't bring in your firearms. Disobeying that rule, however, is not breaking the law (provided you are lawfully carrying); it is just disobeying their wishes, of which all they can do at that point is ask you to leave. The hilarity of it all is that by carrying "concealed,"  they wouldn't, and don't, know the difference anyway.



Yep, yep, yep. That's what they explained to us at the CCW class I took.

*IF* they know I have it, and they ask me to leave, I am looking at tresspassing issues if I refuse. But who's really going to push it? Besides, I would just have to show them I left it in my truck, and I could come right back in.

We've got those signs everywhere here, at the Mall, at the Movie theater, minute markets, I didn't notice the little stickers until I started watching for them. A lot of our sporting goods stores have policies about firearms, but if you show the people in the front of the store it's unloaded, you can take it in to test-try holsters and stuff.

You couldn't function as a CCW holder if you followed all of those signs. Besides, Oregon is an open-carry state, so I think most of those signs are company policy from some out-of-state manager keeping people from bringing their gun in conspicuously. (AKA hog-leg).

But it's written into our state law that no one can preclude the right to carry concealed with a CCW, not the county, or the city governments specifically, not the school board, and certainly not a store.


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## Sukerkin (Nov 2, 2007)

This is one of those circumstances where owners of businesses are taking upon themselves to create laws that have no weight.  They are not lawmakers but merely private citizens on their own property.

For example, we used to have signs all over hotels in this country that basically stated that if you had any of your valuables stolen or damaged then the hotel was not liable.  This was legal hogwash as part and parcel of the business premesis being private property is the fact that they are responsible for ensuring reasonable safety for you and your belongings.  This doesn't mean that you shouldn't take reasonable care yourself but if you do and something happens then it's the hotel that is under legal obligation.


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## Lisa (Nov 2, 2007)

So basically it is all bogus


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## thardey (Nov 2, 2007)

So . . . .

Does this fall under the category as sneaking snacks into a movie theater?

Come on, admit it, I know you do!


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## Andy Moynihan (Nov 2, 2007)

Hell, I cop to both, I ain't proud


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## thardey (Nov 2, 2007)

Which raises the question: If you took both into a theater, and they suspected you of sneaking "something" in, which would you admit to?


"No sir, that's not a box of milk-duds, that's my gun!"

Do-oh!


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## Lisa (Nov 2, 2007)

thardey said:


> Which raises the question: If you took both into a theater, and they suspected you of sneaking "something" in, which would you admit to?
> 
> 
> "No sir, that's not a box of milk-duds, that's my gun!"
> ...



I just carry a big purse for my milk duds 

On the question of them questioning you.  What right do they really have to come up and ask you "what's in your jacket?"  Isn't it only the security guards that can do that?


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## thardey (Nov 2, 2007)

Lisa said:


> I just carry a big purse for my milk duds
> 
> On the question of them questioning you.  What right do they really have to come up and ask you "what's in your jacket?"  Isn't it only the security guards that can do that?




What special authority do security guards have that regular employees don't?

You could always say "I'm glad to see you're alert! What's your name?" As though you were doing some sort of "security check". Maybe pretend to record it into your cell phone like it was a memo-recorder.

Confidence is the best camouflage.

Edited to add:
Or I could carry a purse, but that would look funny.
No guy wants to have to dig through an unknown purse.


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## Carol (Nov 2, 2007)

Its legal for anyone to ask "What's in YOUR jacket?" (Sorry, couldn't resist) 

The legal question isn't in the asking, it's in the answering.

Any mall employee can legally ask me what is in my purse.   

I can legally tell them to bugger off and leave me alone.  

They can legally ask me to leave the premises.  

I can choose to comply, or not comply.

If I comply, me and my purse (and my business) goes elsewhere.

If I don't comply, I risk minor trespassing charges.


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## Lisa (Nov 2, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> Its legal for anyone to ask "What's in YOUR jacket?" (Sorry, couldn't resist)
> 
> The legal question isn't in the asking, it's in the answering.
> 
> ...



But couldn't you sue them for falsely accusing you, especially if you aren't carrying?


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## thardey (Nov 2, 2007)

Lisa said:


> But couldn't you sue them for falsely accusing you, especially if you aren't carrying?



Accusing you of what? You're not breaking a law.

If they strip-searched you, on the other hand . . .


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## jks9199 (Nov 2, 2007)

Blindside said:


> Trolley Square in Salt Lake City is posted as "no weapons," obviously it did nothing to deter the shooter, what did deter the situation was an off-duty cop who failed to follow the posted signs and was carrying concealed.
> 
> Also, depending on which state you are in those signs may or may not actually have any weight of law behind them.
> 
> Lamont


 


Brian R. VanCise said:


> Lamont is definately right on here in that how does a retailer rule supercede a State License? :erg: Now if you were employed by the retailer they have every right to enforce you not having weapons concealed but as a customer that would be a real tough sell in a court of law.


 


Carol Kaur said:


> the laws vary from state to state, but a retailer generally can't prosecute weapons charges for a customer that carries on their premises. However, give that it is private property, they can ask a person to leave.
> 
> How would they know who to ask? They would have to know who is carrying...and with a properly holstered sidearm, that is impossible to tell.
> 
> Concealed means n one should know you have it...IMO, these rules are likely inspired by people that got spooked by sloppy carry habits.


 


Andy Moynihan said:


> Unless it is a place specifically forbidden on the state's or Federal govt's books( Federal property, military installation, bank, post office, depending on the state, maybe police stations, depending on the state, bars, and so on), they haven't a legal leg to stand on. They can ask you to leave( assuming they are patting you down for weapons and see one, which is a whole nother legal can of worms, such as in several cases in my past where searching for my CCW piece would have been tantamount to indecent assault)), and lose a customer, perhaps several more as a result, but that's about it.


 
It's not complicated at all.  Malls and shopping centers (and amusement parks and lots of other "public places") are private property, open to the public for a particular purpose.  In the case of the shopping center, that's to patronize the various shops and businesses.  As such, they can set the rules for those entering the property, and can prohibit carrying concealed weapons, or almost any thing else they want.  So, were you to be discovered carrying a concealed weapon, with a permit, you're committing trespass; to paraphrase a judge's explanation of how shoplifting could be pled down to trespass, you've violated the close (the bounds of the property) by entering the property without complying with their rules (like no guns or not stealing).  

Of course, your mileage may vary in different states.  But any property owner can be MORE restrictive on their property than the state's laws, for almost any activity.


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## Carol (Nov 2, 2007)

Lisa said:


> But couldn't you sue them for falsely accusing you, especially if you aren't carrying?



Anyone can sue anybody for anything.  Whether the lawsuit has merit, or can be heard by a court of law is another story.

The right to carry in the U.S. is a right to *carry*.  Unlike race, gender, handicap status, etc, the attribute of legally carrying a sidearm does not put the carrier in to a protected class under civil rights law.  

In most cases, it is legal to discriminate against CCW holders, much like it is generally legal to discriminate against smokers or bikers or people wearing jeans or any other assorted non-protected attributes.

If a store emploee were to say "I suspect you are carrying so I am going to ask you to leave," that doesn't meet the legal definition of a criminally false accusation, because the store employee isn't accusing someone of breaking the law.   They are simply assuming that someone is violating store policy and taking non-litigious action against that person.

There are many areas of law where....being a jerk is legal, making no sense is legal, and bad business is legal.    Just because something is legal doesn't  mean that something is necessarily advisable.


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## Rich Parsons (Nov 2, 2007)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Lamont is definately right on here in that how does a retailer rule supercede a State License? :erg: Now if you were employed by the retailer they have every right to enforce you not having weapons concealed but as a customer that would be a real tough sell in a court of law.



  This is the real reason I have never gotten used to carrying since I got a carry firearm and a CPL from the state of Michigan. At worked the state it is a cause for being let go to have a weapon. Also going to a place that makes 50% of its' income from liquor is also a place not allowed by the state. So I choose to go places of better establishment to limit the opportunities.


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## jks9199 (Nov 2, 2007)

Lisa said:


> But couldn't you sue them for falsely accusing you, especially if you aren't carrying?


 


thardey said:


> Accusing you of what? You're not breaking a law.
> 
> If they strip-searched you, on the other hand . . .


 
Exactly...

Though an argument for slander can be made if they yelled "STOP THIEF" or something along those lines in a way that everyone can hear.  

However, before you get to quick to say "no, what are you gonna do about it?!"... most states have laws that enable a merchant or their agent (like a contract security guard) to detain people they have reasonable suspicion committed larceny or shoplifting.  Usually, this is a limited detention while the police are called, but they are generally permitted to use reasonable force to detain you.


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## thardey (Nov 2, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> Exactly...
> 
> Though an argument for slander can be made if they yelled "STOP THIEF" or something along those lines in a way that everyone can hear.
> 
> However, before you get to quick to say "no, what are you gonna do about it?!"... most states have laws that enable a merchant or their agent (like a contract security guard) to detain people they have reasonable suspicion committed larceny or shoplifting.  Usually, this is a limited detention while the police are called, but they are generally permitted to use reasonable force to detain you.




Good point,

If an employee saw an unusual bulge in my waistline, and accused me of shoplifting, I would rather just show them the gun, and head out the door.

*jks*, how often do you guys get calls from people who overreact to concealed pistols carried legitimately?

Do you get any of the "This guy had a gun in my store, I want you to arrest him!" type of stuff?


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## buldog (Nov 2, 2007)

This is probably not going to be well received.  Having been in retail for many years it makes me very nervous if a customer has a weapon of any kind in their possession.  I had one guy pull out his 45 to see if it would fit in a nice cigar box that I had(that was not cool).  We have to be vigilant at all times to keep from getting robbed,  so seeing a bulging jacket can cause a little stress.   Does it really cause you that much distress to leave it in the car for a few minutes?  Also, if you are suspected of shoplifting I can detain you using resonable force until the police arrive and ask you to open the bag, purse or jacket to see what's inside(not actually search).  The police also will take a copy of any video so you had better be sure your right before you approach someone!  We appreciate your business just leave your gun outside for a few minutes.

PS. Please don't shoot me!


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## Cruentus (Nov 2, 2007)

buldog said:


> This is probably not going to be well received.  Having been in retail for many years it makes me very nervous if a customer has a weapon of any kind in their possession.  I had one guy pull out his 45 to see if it would fit in a nice cigar box that I had(that was not cool).  We have to be vigilant at all times to keep from getting robbed,  so seeing a bulging jacket can cause a little stress.   Does it really cause you that much distress to leave it in the car for a few minutes?  Also, if you are suspected of shoplifting I can detain you using resonable force until the police arrive and ask you to open the bag, purse or jacket to see what's inside(not actually search).  The police also will take a copy of any video so you had better be sure your right before you approach someone!  We appreciate your business just leave your gun outside for a few minutes.
> 
> PS. Please don't shoot me!



Yea... because leaving guns outside is much safer then keeping em on your person...


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## Carol (Nov 2, 2007)

buldog said:


> This is probably not going to be well received.  Having been in retail for many years it makes me very nervous if a customer has a weapon of any kind in their possession.  I had one guy pull out his 45 to see if it would fit in a nice cigar box that I had(that was not cool).  We have to be vigilant at all times to keep from getting robbed,  so seeing a bulging jacket can cause a little stress.   Does it really cause you that much distress to leave it in the car for a few minutes?  Also, if you are suspected of shoplifting I can detain you using resonable force until the police arrive and ask you to open the bag, purse or jacket to see what's inside(not actually search).  The police also will take a copy of any video so you had better be sure your right before you approach someone!  We appreciate your business just leave your gun outside for a few minutes.
> 
> PS. Please don't shoot me!



Well...that's pretty much my complaint.  

Pulling a gun out to see if it fits in a box, hangin' in the parking lot with one's pals munching on burgers from the food court and showing off their newest "toys", carrying a sidearm in such a way that it makes a suspicious print under the clothing...that is not concealment.  

Concealed means _no one_ should know you have it.


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## thardey (Nov 2, 2007)

buldog said:


> This is probably not going to be well received.  Having been in retail for many years it makes me very nervous if a customer has a weapon of any kind in their possession.  I had one guy pull out his 45 to see if it would fit in a nice cigar box that I had(that was not cool).  We have to be vigilant at all times to keep from getting robbed,  so seeing a bulging jacket can cause a little stress.   Does it really cause you that much distress to leave it in the car for a few minutes?  Also, if you are suspected of shoplifting I can detain you using resonable force until the police arrive and ask you to open the bag, purse or jacket to see what's inside(not actually search).  The police also will take a copy of any video so you had better be sure your right before you approach someone!  We appreciate your business just leave your gun outside for a few minutes.


 


Hmm, have you ever thought about how many people may have had guns in your store that you never knew about? The first time I spent all day with a Full size .45 on my hip, not even my wife knew I had it, and she was with me _all day._ But yeah, if you asked me what that bulge was in my waistband, I would be happy to show you the gun, and my permit. There would be no point in wasting my time in insisting on my right to privacy. 

Here's a hint: most responsible-type gun carriers keep them in a holster specially designed for comfort and safety, so if you do "catch" someone with a gun, and you see it well-carried, you probably don't anything to worry about. If they have it poorly stuffed in their waistband, at the very least you know they're irresponsible.



> PS. Please don't shoot me!



Sorry, but I don't see that as funny.


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## buldog (Nov 2, 2007)

Cruentus said:


> Yea... because leaving guns outside is much safer then keeping em on your person... [/quote
> Just better for my peace of mind, the less weapons around(especially when I am not armed) the safer it feels.
> 
> The .45 was concealed until he took it out without warning me what he was doing.  I had no idea he had it.  Just didn't like the guy pulling out a gun in my store(licensed or not).
> ...


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## Carol (Nov 2, 2007)

Then he wasn't carrying concealed.  Concealed-until-he-pulled-it-out isn't concealed-carry.


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## Cruentus (Nov 2, 2007)

buldog said:


> Cruentus said:
> 
> 
> > Yea... because leaving guns outside is much safer then keeping em on your person... [/quote
> ...


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## Cryozombie (Nov 2, 2007)

You know what I think about places with those signs?

They are great places to steal guns.  Because the people who comply with the signs will lock them in their cars, under the seat, or in the trunk or glovebox.  

I don't live in a CCW state (one of only 3 states its impossible to get some form of carry permit, yay for the Democrats!) but I have actually seen people when I was in Ohio at a mall pull their firearms out and put em in the trunk... and I thought "Holy ****, I'd never do that!"


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## Andy Moynihan (Nov 2, 2007)

buldog said:


> This is probably not going to be well received. Having been in retail for many years it makes me very nervous if a customer has a weapon of any kind in their possession. I had one guy pull out his 45 to see if it would fit in a nice cigar box that I had(that was not cool). We have to be vigilant at all times to keep from getting robbed, so seeing a bulging jacket can cause a little stress. Does it really cause you that much distress to leave it in the car for a few minutes? Also, if you are suspected of shoplifting I can detain you using resonable force until the police arrive and ask you to open the bag, purse or jacket to see what's inside(not actually search). The police also will take a copy of any video so you had better be sure your right before you approach someone! We appreciate your business just leave your gun outside for a few minutes.
> 
> PS. Please don't shoot me!


 
Two answers to that:

1) In my state leaving a firearm unattended in a vehicle is not legal. I have enough to worry about lugging my holster, Commander-sized 1911, at least one reload,  cell phone, folder, pepper spray, wallet and keys without having to lug a trigger lock around with the whole mess.
Also, if I am seen taking it out and securing it in my vehicle, all's it takes is one troublemaking ***hole to call the cops and say "Oh, he pulled his gun on me" and there's a charge of brandishing, my permit pulled, my guns confiscated and who knows what kind of jail time.

2) the chucklehead who whipped his piece out in the store DESERVES to have his permit pulled and his guns confiscated. If you need for whatever reason to notify a clerk you are armed( say, if you are being fitted for a suit and want room for your holster) you simply tell them there is one consideration and take out and show them your PERMIT ONLY. Somebody sees your gun, that can become a charge of brandishing and there goes your permit at minimum.


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## buldog (Nov 2, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> Then he wasn't carrying concealed. Concealed-until-he-pulled-it-out isn't concealed-carry.


The distinction is kind of moot isn't it?   Either your carrying or your not regardless of your skill at concealment.  Granted the guy was a real idiot(he looked at me like I was out of my mind when I asked him to please take the gun back to his car).  Keep in mind that most of the public's exposure to "concealed" weapons is through guys just like him not responsible, law abiding people like yourselves.  
Also, If i'm robbed i'll hand over the money without a fuss and pull the silent alarm as soon as i can.  I don't want to get in a gun battle over a few bucks(yes we do have a gun but by the time i tried to get it i would already be dead). We also used to have an employee who was also a LEO and he carried in plain sight.  Yeah we never had a holdup but we also scared off a lot of customers that way too.  
I don't think there is an answer that will suit everybody.  So if you must carry then please try to keep it concealed properly.


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## Lisa (Nov 2, 2007)

buldog said:


> The distinction is kind of moot isn't it?   Either your carrying or your not regardless of your skill at concealment.  Granted the guy was a real idiot(he looked at me like I was out of my mind when I asked him to please take the gun back to his car).  Keep in mind that most of the public's exposure to "concealed" weapons is through guys just like him not responsible, law abiding people like yourselves.
> Also, If i'm robbed i'll hand over the money without a fuss and pull the silent alarm as soon as i can.  I don't want to get in a gun battle over a few bucks*(yes we do have a gun but by the time i tried to get it i would already be dead).* We also used to have an employee who was also a LEO and he carried in plain sight.  Yeah we never had a holdup but we also scared off a lot of customers that way too.
> I don't think there is an answer that will suit everybody.  So if you must carry then please try to keep it concealed properly.



The part of your statement that I bolded terrifies me.  And this is better then some citizens are carrying concealed.  There is seriously a gun there for you to use?  Without any training?  For anyone?  And this is legal?????

Wow.


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## buldog (Nov 2, 2007)

Andy Moynihan said:


> Two answers to that:
> 
> 1) In my state leaving a firearm unattended in a vehicle is not legal. I have enough to worry about lugging my holster, Commander-sized 1911, at least one reload, cell phone, folder, pepper spray, wallet and keys without having to lug a trigger lock around with the whole mess.
> Also, if I am seen taking it out and securing it in my vehicle, all's it takes is one troublemaking ***hole to call the cops and say "Oh, he pulled his gun on me" and there's a charge of brandishing, my permit pulled, my guns confiscated and who knows what kind of jail time.
> ...


Good points.  I didn't know about the brandishing aspect of it.  I like the part of showing only the permit.
Just goes to show that its the few idiots that ruin it for everybody else.


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## buldog (Nov 2, 2007)

Lisa said:


> The part of your statement that I bolded terrifies me. And this is better then some citizens are carrying concealed. There is seriously a gun there for you to use? Without any training? For anyone? And this is legal?????
> 
> Wow.


Yeah, I wasn't too happy about it either.  The owner has a loaded revolver with NO safety stashed in the office.  I worked there for 2 yrs before I stumbled on it looking for a legal pad.  As far as the legality of it i'm not sure, but a lot of mom and pop stores have weapons on the premises(if you ever watch those "amazing" videos on TV you'll notice the old man always runs out shooting AFTER the guy is running away).


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## Andy Moynihan (Nov 2, 2007)

buldog said:


> Yeah, I wasn't too happy about it either. The owner has a loaded revolver with NO safety stashed in the office. I worked there for 2 yrs before I stumbled on it looking for a legal pad. As far as the legality of it i'm not sure, but a lot of mom and pop stores have weapons on the premises(if you ever watch those "amazing" videos on TV you'll notice the old man always runs out shooting AFTER the guy is running away).


 

See now this is the one thing for which I will make an exception to my staunch pro-gun philosophy.

As much as I will say the right to be armed must never be taken from the law abiding, I will always qualify that with this one thing:

Never Arm An Untrained Person.


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## Cruentus (Nov 2, 2007)

buldog said:


> Yeah, I wasn't too happy about it either.  The owner has a loaded revolver with NO safety stashed in the office.  I worked there for 2 yrs before I stumbled on it looking for a legal pad.  As far as the legality of it i'm not sure, but a lot of mom and pop stores have weapons on the premises(if you ever watch those "amazing" videos on TV you'll notice the old man always runs out shooting AFTER the guy is running away).



Dude, what you are experiencing is really irresponsible behavior. Leaving loaded guns lying around isn't even something you should do at home, let alone a business with untrained people all over the place.

All I have to say is don't let the irresponsible behaviors of a few color your opinion about CCW holders and carriers. A responsible person with a CCW would not whip his firearm out unannounced, and would not leave unloaded firearms around a store.

If you ever have the time or know a friend who shoots who is a RESPONSIBLE gun owner, I suggest you talk with him about gun safety and maybe go shooting with him a couple of times. You won't be disappointed, and this may help balance out your viewpoint a little. Your problem isn't really with those who are responsible and who carry concealed. Your problem is with irresponsible people who give the rest of us a bad image. I think that with these discussions you definitely need to distinguish between the 2.

Take Care,

C.


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## Carol (Nov 2, 2007)

To Buldog's credit though, I think he did realize that...going by his answer to Andy....




buldog said:


> Good points.  I didn't know about the brandishing aspect of it.  I like the part of showing only the permit.
> * Just goes to show that its the few idiots that ruin it for everybody else.*


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## KenpoTex (Nov 2, 2007)

Lisa said:


> When you see notices, do you boycott that facility? What do you believe is the reasoning behind the rules of these facilities?
> 
> Curious, I am.


 
I try to boycott any business that is posted.  I'm a member of a forum for concealed-carry holders in my state.  On the website we have a "Boycott list" of businesses that do not allow concealed-carry.
 If I have to go somewhere that's posted (with the exception of gov. buildings and airports), I usually just ignore the sign...concealed means concealed.  I have friends that not only know that I carry but know exactly where I carry my weapon and they can't see it.  I'm not worried about someone else accidentally noticing.

as far as why businesses post these signs...it's because whomever is in charge is an idiot and doesn't realize that 1) law-abiding citizens who are armed is a good thing, and 2) that posting those signs puts them at greater risk because the criminals are not going to care about the sign and may actually target that business because there's less chance of encountering an armed citizen.


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## jks9199 (Nov 3, 2007)

thardey said:


> Good point,
> 
> If an employee saw an unusual bulge in my waistline, and accused me of shoplifting, I would rather just show them the gun, and head out the door.
> 
> ...


 
There's not an easy way to answer that.  Typically, a reasonably lawful person with a CCW is going to take one of two actions:  they'll either comply with the signs, and thus won't be a problem, or, when confronted, they'll leave, making calling the cops unnecessary.

But, Virginia is a "shall issue" state for CCW, and it's also an open carry state.  Lately, we've had deliberate incidents when people carrying openly go someplace, hoping to have a cop called.  So... with some very narrow exceptions, you can carry a gun openly almost anywhere in Virginia.  Of course, private property owners may declare guns unwelcome...  

The other thing is that it's a very different question in different parts of Virginia.  In the  northern Virginia area, guns almost certainly cause a stir.  But, in parts of southern (especally southwestern) Virginia... a gun carried openly won't be much of a issue at all.

I've only responded to a few "man with a gun calls" -- but I've encountered more guns, often legally carried.  If you have a CCW, the key word is "CONCEALED."  It shouldn't be immediately apparent -- and I shouldn't know about it.


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## jks9199 (Nov 3, 2007)

Andy Moynihan said:


> Two answers to that:
> 
> 1) In my state leaving a firearm unattended in a vehicle is not legal. I have enough to worry about lugging my holster, Commander-sized 1911, at least one reload, cell phone, folder, pepper spray, wallet and keys without having to lug a trigger lock around with the whole mess.
> Also, if I am seen taking it out and securing it in my vehicle, all's it takes is one troublemaking ***hole to call the cops and say "Oh, he pulled his gun on me" and there's a charge of brandishing, my permit pulled, my guns confiscated and who knows what kind of jail time.
> ...


 
Simply removing a gun from a concealed position or even from a holster is NOT the same as brandishing it.  Brandishing generally requires that your actions reasonably put someone in fear of being shot.  See, for example, VA Code 18.2-282.  Of course, each state's laws are different -- but simply possessing something or even showing it doesn't automatically equal brandishing it.  

With that said -- the idiot who pulled a gun out to try to fit it into a cigar box raises lots of concerns, and is probably not someone who should have a gun.


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## Sukerkin (Nov 3, 2007)

I just wanted to say that having knowledgeable people on the forum, who can speak with experience and authority on issues like this, is, for someone like me who is from a very different culture, an invalubale resource :tup:.

That sentence needed a 'Complex structure' alert putting on it I think .  A shorter re-write would be me saying "Thanks for the insights chaps and chapesses." .


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## Andy Moynihan (Nov 4, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> Simply removing a gun from a concealed position or even from a holster is NOT the same as brandishing it. Brandishing generally requires that your actions reasonably put someone in fear of being shot. See, for example, VA Code 18.2-282. Of course, each state's laws are different -- but simply possessing something or even showing it doesn't automatically equal brandishing it.


 
I'm talking about the People's Republic of Massachusettstan, don't forget.


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## bydand (Nov 4, 2007)

Andy Moynihan said:


> I'm talking about the People's Republic of Massachusettstan, don't forget.



That's right, and they are not afraid to show the influences on the States firearm laws.  The State troopers uniforms look like SS uniforms. (At least the did last time I knew.)  

As for signs about carrying in the establishment; unless they pat me down, I'm not telling anybody.  My Maine CCW is limited to only those places on the federal list of "do Not carry" and any prison in the State as well.  When I first got my CCW here, I was used to Michigans (at that time) restrictive carry laws so I asked what restrictions applied.  The Chief of Police gave me an odd look and told me I couldn't point it at a teller as I was making withdrawals.  If the issuing authority doesn't put a restriction about carrying someplace, I don't even act like I see the sign.  If they find out somehow and ask me to leave, I leave, simple.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Nov 4, 2007)

Great comments by everyone.


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## Grenadier (Nov 6, 2007)

Lisa said:


> I seriously wonder how many people ignore the request and carry anyways.


 
Every bad guy.  

The incident at Virginia Tech was enough proof, that forbiddance of those who can lawfully carry concealed firearms, did nothing to stop Cho Seung Hui, who took advantage of the victim disarmament zone.  


As for law abiding folks ignoring the signs, it depends on what state it is.  Some states interpret this as basically saying that you can still carry, but if they catch you, you must leave the premises or face tresspass charges.  Others interpret it as you become a criminal.


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## arnisandyz (Nov 20, 2007)

I'm late coming in on this but...

I "try" to do the right thing and honor a individual's/company's wish to not allow CCW on their property by either not going in or removing my firearm...however, it sure is hard to see that posted sign sometimes with all the other clutter in the store windows (wink, wink). 

Andy


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