# The Anti-Bullying Action Idea thread



## shesulsa (Oct 16, 2012)

The purpose of this thread is to discuss AND ESTABLISH some real-life tools that are NOT martial-arts related - tools we can give parents, teachers and would-be victims that begin a chain of responsibility.  The idea here is those who harrass, repeatedly insult and abuse others are held accountable as are the people who are supposed to respond to incidents such as these and who are failing daily.

Can we start with school-age bullying?

I'm a fan of written records. I have been hawking written reports for some time in my self-defense and martial-arts classes.  I'm certain teachers get verbal reports and they are looked upon as little more than "tattling."  I'm thinking of coming up with a form that can be filled out and submitted to administrators. My concern is, obviously, that ANYONE would be able to fill these out and falsify accounts.

Any thoughts, folks?


----------



## Steve (Oct 16, 2012)

If we're talking about school age bullying, I personally believe that where kids are involved, we should approach the situation from the perspective that bully's and those who are bullied are different sides of the same coin.  In other words, there is a lot of attention given to the "victim" of bullying, but a child who is a bully is as much in need of coaching and social skills development to give them more productive outlets for whatever is compelling them to bully others.

It's my personal belief that bullies are often ALSO bullied by others, similar to how kids who are abused often become abusive parents.  Until, that is, the cycle is broken.

Discussions like this often, I believe, miss the forest for the trees by focusing almost entirely on preventing bullying from the perspective of children who are bullied.


----------



## lklawson (Oct 16, 2012)

I admit to being conflicted in this area.

On the one hand, even verbal bullying can do great amounts of emotional and psychological harm to a child.

On the other hand, if we shelter our children from "bullying" how are they to be equipped to deal with it when they enter the real world?

I'm not saying to tell the kid, "Just grow a set."

This is a very complex issue.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Steve (Oct 16, 2012)

I don't see sheltering kids from bullying to be valuable, either.  I do, however, believe that there are things that many people understand intuitively.  If you subscribe at all to the idea of emotional intelligence, there are some people who naturally charismatic and social.  And there are some who are not.  Whether it's environmental, where childrens' self esteem is damaged in their home or some other way, or as a result of a medically diagnosable condition such as Aspergers, autism or ADHD, we're dealing with kids who lack skills.

The great thing about emotional intelligence is that, unlike IQ, it can be improved.  There are concrete skills that can be shared with kids.  And through coaching and appropriate feedback, kids can overcome the lack of skills that lead them to either bully or be bullied.  

It isn't sheltering kids.  It's arming them with the tools and skills that most children have intuitively.


----------



## WC_lun (Oct 16, 2012)

I think we do the best to teach kids about proper behaviour and compassion for others.  If they do not know these things, then they'll be at a disadvantage in life.  If they understand such things, there is no desire to hurt others in order to feel important.


----------



## oftheherd1 (Oct 16, 2012)

It would be wonderful to be able to explain to bullies that they are doing wrong things, and convince them we can show them a better way. Then have them studiously work on becoming better people. Perhaps that can be done. But I suspect it is a long term project best taken on by professionals. I'm not saying it should not be done, but that I don't think that was the focus of what shesulsa was looking for.

I think she was looking from the point of the victim. I don't see parents of a bully coming to any of us as MA, and asking for our help in turning a bully into a productive citizen. Normally it will be parents or family of victims. While we are working on bettering the bullies, we must give victims, and society, some coping tools as well. Certainly one of them should be identifying and getting help for bullies. But if I understand the gist of the question, it is what is to be done for victims in the interim?

It is indeed a complex question. I think some people are just not good a coping with agression. We can teach them fighting skills, but they may not wish to use them. It is just not part of their makeup to resist physically. Some will have such hatred inside that as soon as they learn something that can be really injurious to a bully they have suffered under, they will try to inflict maximum harm on that bully. Others will carefully learn what we teach, to include ways to get out of a situation without fighting, and only use fighting skills when absolutely necessary. How do we tell these kids apart.

As MA, do we place ourselves at risk of litigation from hurt bullies, or hurt victims who don't successfully use what we have taught?

Have we helped society by only teaching MA as a way to cope with bullies? Should we teach them how to talk to parents/family about being bullied? Do we show them ways to get school officials interested in their problem?

Truely many facets to this. I think it is good to come up with ideas here. Ideas that may help everyone involved.

By the Way, shesulsa, if I have mischaracterized what you are trying to do, correct me.


----------



## Steve (Oct 16, 2012)

oftheherd1 said:


> It would be wonderful to be able to explain to bullies that they are doing wrong things, and convince them we can show them a better way. Then have them studiously work on becoming better people. Perhaps that can be done. But I suspect it is a long term project best taken on by professionals. I'm not saying it should not be done, but that I don't think that was the focus of what shesulsa was looking for.
> 
> I think she was looking from the point of the victim.


Once again, where kids are concerned, they're all valuable, and we have a vested interest in ensuring that as many of them grow into adulthood as stable, productive members of society.  That includes both the bullies and kids who are bullied, too.  





> I don't see parents of a bully coming to any of us as MA, and asking for our help in turning a bully into a productive citizen.


And that's a damned shame, but does that make the children any less important?





> Normally it will be parents or family of victims. While we are working on bettering the bullies, we must give victims, and society, some coping tools as well.


No one has suggested otherwise.  As I said before, they're two sides of the same coin.  Regardless of how it manifests, we're looking at a situation where kids are lacking basic social skills that will allow them to interact more positively with others.  And that's exactly what they are: skills.  





> Certainly one of them should be identifying and getting help for bullies. But if I understand the gist of the question, it is what is to be done for victims in the interim?


And I vehemently disagree with you that the bullied are the only victims.  I also disagree with you that addressing the needs of the bullies fails to help kids who invite bullying.  I believe that the biggest reason that many anti-bullying campaigns fail is precisely because they consider only half of the equation. 





> It is indeed a complex question. I think some people are just not good a coping with agression. We can teach them fighting skills, but they may not wish to use them. It is just not part of their makeup to resist physically. Some will have such hatred inside that as soon as they learn something that can be really injurious to a bully they have suffered under, they will try to inflict maximum harm on that bully. Others will carefully learn what we teach, to include ways to get out of a situation without fighting, and only use fighting skills when absolutely necessary. How do we tell these kids apart.
> 
> As MA, do we place ourselves at risk of litigation from hurt bullies, or hurt victims who don't successfully use what we have taught?
> 
> ...


I agree.  So, then, why are you so quick to dismiss my ideas?  Very, very strange to me.


----------



## WC_lun (Oct 16, 2012)

We as martial artist are not religion or moralist.  We are just people.  Perhaps the greatest gift we can give children and some adults is self confidence.  It is difficult to bully a confident child, because they do not fit easily into being a victim.  Many bullies do so as a replacement for self confidence.  I don't believe preaching at kids will do much.  leading by example seems to offer better results from what I have seen.


----------



## lklawson (Oct 17, 2012)

Steve said:


> I don't see sheltering kids from bullying to be valuable, either.  I do, however, believe that there are things that many people understand intuitively.  If you subscribe at all to the idea of emotional intelligence, there are some people who naturally charismatic and social.  And there are some who are not.  Whether it's environmental, where childrens' self esteem is damaged in their home or some other way, or as a result of a medically diagnosable condition such as Aspergers, autism or ADHD, we're dealing with kids who lack skills.


Let me give you a bit of background that I don't usually slip into martial arts discussions.  Obviously, I'm a martial artist.  I've studied multiple styles from Eastern to Western, and teach several different martial skills.  I'm a huge self defense proponent and I advocate for self defense ranging from mild and mostly non-injurious grappling up through deadly weapons including firearms.  

I also come from a very religious family.  My Father is a Preacher and a former Missionary.  "Turn the other Cheek" along with various "how to cope with bullies" skills from the 80's was drilled into me from my early years.

My wife is a Board Certified professional Counselor here in Ohio, working with mostly very low income, Court ordered, sometimes addicted, sometimes damaged (literally), and other "disadvantaged" people.  She's studied all of the modern behavior theory and loves to use it as dinner conversation.

Finally, I *am* one of those parents who has a kid like you describe.  My son has ADHD and Generalized Anxiety Disorder (GAD).  He has to take meds for both but, of the two, his Anxiety meds are the most important.   His "deal with bullies" skills suck and he has been bullied on multiple occasions.  And, yes, when it's *your kid*, the first instinct is to go Captain Caveman (which is, of course, counter-productive at best).

I paint this picture not to claim that I'm an expert in the field but to say that I've given more than my fair share of thoughtful consideration to the topic and have "been there, done that."  I have experience that gives me a perspective which many people simply don't have.



> The great thing about emotional intelligence is that, unlike IQ, it can be improved.  There are concrete skills that can be shared with kids.  And through coaching and appropriate feedback, kids can overcome the lack of skills that lead them to either bully or be bullied.


Not entirely, no.  Teaching these skills can help the victim of bullying, yes.  I agree.  However, it does not always stop the bullying because there are different kinds of bullies with different motivators.  It is a trap to try to pigeon-hole bullying behavior into one or two causes such as low self esteem or reenactment of bullying done earlier to the now-bully.  Some bullying, for instance, is done to show off and score social points with the group.  It's an important part of human psychology that we automatically want to create groups of "us" and "them."  Bullying can sometimes be an expression of that.  Another cause can be simple Male Dominance.  Yes, even prepubescent boys have enough testosterone and other male hormones to trigger this sort of behavior and have yet to learn (if ever) the appropriate filters to their behavior.

There are other potential reasons, of course, but I don't want to belabor the point with minutia.



> It isn't sheltering kids.  It's arming them with the tools and skills that most children have intuitively.


I honestly don't think "most children" have these skills intuitively.  I agree that some do, but my experience is that they are the exception rather than the rule.  Most children can learn these skills if they're simply modeled for them in example by others.  Some need concerted and deliberate instruction.

But, again, this only addresses the victim side of the coin.  Of course it is much harder to address the bully because they usually see nothing wrong with their behavior, particularly while they are engaging in it.  That's part of the psychology of it; it seems perfectly natural to them and to the rest of the group.

Further, much of the bullying occurs at school.  This is obvious but I bring it forward to point out that the first line of defense are the Educators.  Yet my experience is that these Educators are woefully unprepared and inadequately trained in this area.  They can barely identify bullying and the "stock" responses they have (are allowed to have) are, frankly, stupid.  They often take the form of telling the victim to not look like an inviting victim (notice I didn't say "teach them how") or to just avoid the bully.  This rather comes across as telling a rape victim to try not to "dress that way" and to simply avoid rapists.  <eyeroll>

Now, I can't say that it is entirely the fault of the Educators.  It is a very complex situation and every bully and victim has their unique permutations.  Further we are continually asking our Educators to do ever more with fewer and fewer resources (have you seen what the Continuing Education requirements are in your State?).

So, back to the OP question of what non-martial artsy things can we do for the victim and what can we do to ensure that those who are supposed to stop it are held accountable?

First, teaching anti-victim skills is wonderful and all but the people who need the instruction have to be identified.  While anti-victim skills for bullying are honestly similar in many ways to standard anti-crime-victim skills, the student is vastly different.  Frankly, most of the kids who need these skills aren't going to learn well from traditional instruction.  If they did then just seeing it modeled for them would have been enough in most cases.  But it's not.  It takes an instructor with specialized skills in working with these kids who don't intuitively "pick up" those skills when they are modeled for them.  Occupational Therapists are a good starting point, as strange as it sounds.

And what of "holding accountable?"  This is another tough question.  First, maybe we should ask if it is fair to hold them accountable?  Have we provided them with the tools and the training?  Do they have the appropriate personality and disposition to use those tools?  What tools should we give them anyway because "just avoid the bully and his sycophants" is kinda like saying, "sure, just agree to ostracize yourself from the group; come by and pick up your trench coat and a hi point in a few years."

Bullying is like Ogres and Parfaits, there are lots of layers.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## lklawson (Oct 17, 2012)

WC_lun said:


> We as martial artist are not religion or moralist.  We are just people.  Perhaps the greatest gift we can give children and some adults is self confidence.  It is difficult to bully a confident child, because they do not fit easily into being a victim.  Many bullies do so as a replacement for self confidence.  I don't believe preaching at kids will do much.  leading by example seems to offer better results from what I have seen.


I'm sorry, I just don't agree.  Modern research seems to indicate that the most common reasons for bullying are more often social or group dynamics in nature, not in low self esteem/confidence.  Further what identifies the victim is very often not the confidence level of the victim but some other quality which clearly differentiates the victim from the bully (and also often the bully's group of supporters).  Bullying is less often a one-on-one encounter that is in isolation but usually includes a group of supporters for the bully.  Finally, just "leading by example," ie:, modeling the skills is often not enough.  A major part of why bullying is effective is because of the social isolation that it creates for the victim.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Cyriacus (Oct 17, 2012)

How to fix bullying in schools:
Increase supervision of the children.

Just My opinion, of course.


----------



## oftheherd1 (Oct 17, 2012)

My goodness, I seem to have touched a nerve. Have you had some personal experience you could share that might help me and others understand where you are coming from? I did not intend, nor do I think I did, imply that no effort should be expended to change bullies into productive members of society. But I do believe that those bullied must receive the first help. They are pretty much legally blameless, yet are being preyed upon. That must stop as quickly as possible, and they must be protected.

The bully is pretty much legally at odds with the law, and is always on the lookout for prey. You almost seem to want to ignore that aspect of a bully/bullied situation. I am sure you don't, but to me at least, you sort of come across that way; advocating more for the bully than the bullied. Their 'crime' must be stopped as quickly as possible, so as you suggest, we don't allow the production of more bullies.



Steve said:


> Once again, where kids are concerned, they're all valuable, and we have a vested interest in ensuring that as many of them grow into adulthood as stable, productive members of society. That includes both the bullies and kids who are bullied, too.
> 
> *I never said different. But I still say the victim needs protection first. Then we can address the bully and why the bully is acting that way. Given a robber, I am sure while any of us may wish for some road to rehabilitation, none of us, including you or I, would wish to make that a higher priority than the justice due the victim.
> *
> ...



But this thread seems to be going in a slightly different way than intended by shesulsa. I have participated in that as well. I think some of what we are saying may still be pertenent, but I think she is looking for non-martial arts solutions (even though she relates some of her solutions within her dojo).

I think I would ask her and others, if where they are, there seems to be a disconnect in reporting bullying? I know I check with my grandson from time to time, to see if he feels he is being bullied by anyone. We have found there are some things he is more comfortable talking to me and my wife about. If it is happening, I want to know. I'm not sure what I would do if he said it was happening, but for sure I wouldn't ignor it. My concern for him, and my two grand-daughters is one reason I am following this thread to see what others contribute.


----------



## Steve (Oct 17, 2012)

I agree with everything you've said, Kirk, and appreciate the time you took to respond.  I want to clarify a few things, myself.  I have also given a lot of thought to the topic.  My brother was diagnosed with Aspergers and was bullied relentlessly throughout his life, as a child and as an adult in the military.  Picture a guy in the 101st Airborne who has Aspergers and you can imagine how well he got along as a young adult.  He and I were very close in age.  I'm just barely a year younger.  So we were almost always at the same schools.  

I was also bullied relentlessly as a child, and I'm ashamed to say that I was more than happy to join in when some other poor kid deflected some of that negative attention from myself.  This has led me to believe a few things to be true.  First, having been a bully and also a victim of bullying, I see how much alike the two are.  Second, I believe that many (I like to believe _most)_ bullies are not inherently despicable human beings and have as much an opportunity to become happy, healthy and productive as a victim of bullying.   

My point _isn't _that it's easy to deal with bullying.  I have one major point, and that's the need to take care of both sides of the equation.  Kids who bully are often ALSO being bullied.  Kids who are bullied are often ALSO bullying other kids.  While the best way to handle things will vary from kid to kid, it really bums me out that so often, adults look at an issue like bullying without acknowledging that there are always at least two children who need help, and neither of the two is more or less important than the other.


----------



## Steve (Oct 17, 2012)

oftheherd1 said:


> My goodness, I seem to have touched a nerve.


Wouldn't you agree that bullying is a topic that has the potential to touch a lot of nerves?   But let me assure you I'm not overly upset.  Just somewhat passionate.





> [Have you had some personal experience you could share that might help me and others understand where you are coming from? I did not intend, nor do I think I did, imply that no effort should be expended to change bullies into productive members of society. But I do believe that those bullied must receive the first help. They are pretty much legally blameless, yet are being preyed upon. That must stop as quickly as possible, and they must be protected.


Not always true.  I'll share another situation.  My son was bullied as a young kid.  he's also VERY smart, and while he wasn't able to keep from being bullied, he was also very adept at pushing people's buttons.  It was in about the 6th grade when this kid just went bonkers on my son, jumping him at recess and eventually getting suspended for a week, that I realized that my son wasn't the victim.  While he was, by all accounts, being physically bullied, he was relentlessly bullying the other kids in his own way, provoking them and pushing their buttons.  Until the real issues were addressed, it kept happening.  My son was absolutely being bullied, but he was also, at the same time, bullying the other kids, and until we addressed that issue, it was a cycle that repeated every year, in every class. 





> The bully is pretty much legally at odds with the law, and is always on the lookout for prey. You almost seem to want to ignore that aspect of a bully/bullied situation. I am sure you don't, but to me at least, you sort of come across that way; advocating more for the bully than the bullied. Their 'crime' must be stopped as quickly as possible, so as you suggest, we don't allow the production of more bullies.


I just want to be clear that if someone is breaking the law, they have progressed beyond what I would consider "bullying."  Maybe we are starting with different definitions of the term.


----------



## lklawson (Oct 17, 2012)

Steve said:


> I agree with everything you've said, Kirk, and appreciate the time you took to respond.  I want to clarify a few things, myself.  I have also given a lot of thought to the topic.  My brother was diagnosed with Aspergers and was bullied relentlessly throughout his life, as a child and as an adult in the military.  Picture a guy in the 101st Airborne who has Aspergers and you can imagine how well he got along as a young adult.  He and I were very close in age.  I'm just barely a year younger.  So we were almost always at the same schools.
> 
> I was also bullied relentlessly as a child, and I'm ashamed to say that I was more than happy to join in when some other poor kid deflected some of that negative attention from myself.  This has led me to believe a few things to be true.  First, having been a bully and also a victim of bullying, I see how much alike the two are.  Second, I believe that many (I like to believe _most)_ bullies are not inherently despicable human beings and have as much an opportunity to become happy, healthy and productive as a victim of bullying.


I think we have a lot of common ground.  

I think that most men have, as children, experienced bullying.  Some relentless, some only rarely, and some falling somewhere in the middle.



> My point _isn't _that it's easy to deal with bullying.  I have one major point, and that's the need to take care of both sides of the equation.  Kids who bully are often ALSO being bullied.  Kids who are bullied are often ALSO bullying other kids.  While the best way to handle things will vary from kid to kid, it really bums me out that so often, adults look at an issue like bullying without acknowledging that there are always at least two children who need help, and neither of the two is more or less important than the other.


I completely understand.

One of my biggest frustrations is that the tools used to try to help both victim and bully are, even today, poor and often inadequate.  I recall clearly working with my son's professional Counselor on the issue of being bullied.  She used a board game (we all played together) to reinforce the same tired, "get away, tell an adult, make friends" stuff that has never actually worked as well as society seems to think it should.

It is all to easy for me to understand why some Dads just throw up their hands and tell their sons and daughters to "just punch 'em in the nose, m'kay?"  Because "the usual" doesn't work.

We eventually solved our problem with a two-pronged solution.  First, we insisted that the bullies themselves be counseled.  Second, we just flat removed our son from that environment.  When it became clear that the Educators couldn't do the "anti-bullying" job (some seemed, honestly, disinterested and annoyed that we were "making a stink") or working within the IEP for a ADHD/GAD student, we just flat took him out of their "Public School" and enrolled him in a nearby Charter where the Educators are doing a stand-up job on all counts.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## lklawson (Oct 17, 2012)

Steve said:


> Not always true.  I'll share another situation.  My son was bullied as a young kid.  he's also VERY smart, and while he wasn't able to keep from being bullied,


This rolls back into your earlier discussion of "Emotional IQ."  Being smart isn't always enough.  My son, like yours, is just this side of genius on the IQ tests.  But there are lots of other things that go into it.  Processing Speed, ability to pick up non-verbals, and lots of others (as I'm sure you are aware).

I've also noted some research in recent years that appears to mark a correlation between high IQ and various disorders such as ADHD, Aspergers, and related conditions as well as simple old slow social awareness.  Apparently there might be a kernel of truth to the old (and insulting) stereotype of the socially inept genius.  <sigh>  I suspect that also might be part of the problem.  We, modern enlightened humans, have thrown off the shackles of stereotypes (*coughcough*) and we expect that kids this "bright" should be able to simply intuit the solution because, after all, they're frick'n smart!  And, if the 1950's taught us nothing else it was that frick'n smart dudes in lab coats would save us from both the commie menace and invading martians.  In other words, we expect "really bright" kids to automatically develop skills that the may not necessarily be able to.  So, yeah, the idea of Emotional IQ has a lot of merit in this discussion.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Steve (Oct 17, 2012)

lklawson said:


> This rolls back into your earlier discussion of "Emotional IQ."  Being smart isn't always enough.  My son, like yours, is just this side of genius on the IQ tests.  But there are lots of other things that go into it.  Processing Speed, ability to pick up non-verbals, and lots of others (as I'm sure you are aware).
> 
> I've also noted some research in recent years that appears to mark a correlation between high IQ and various disorders such as ADHD, Aspergers, and related conditions as well as simple old slow social awareness.  Apparently there might be a kernel of truth to the old (and insulting) stereotype of the socially inept genius.  <sigh>  I suspect that also might be part of the problem.  We, modern enlightened humans, have thrown off the shackles of stereotypes (*coughcough*) and we expect that kids this "bright" should be able to simply intuit the solution because, after all, they're frick'n smart!  And, if the 1950's taught us nothing else it was that frick'n smart dudes in lab coats would save us from both the commie menace and invading martians.  In other words, we expect "really bright" kids to automatically develop skills that the may not necessarily be able to.  So, yeah, the idea of Emotional IQ has a lot of merit in this discussion.
> 
> ...


Emotional intelligence is something I began really thinking and learning about when my son was younger.  His behavior and development were concerning as early as his toddler years.  Aspergers, like most other things, is a diagnosis that represents a spectrum of behavior.  My has been characterized by professionals as either mild or high functioning Aspergers.  As a junior in high school, he's very social, although still quite goofy and often very clinical in his interactions.  He still has a tendency when he gets upset to manipulate people (including me), which, I can tell you, is a joy with a teenager. 

So, all of that said, to address the OP, a very specific thing I'd suggest to parents is to be willing to accept the entire truth, which is that every child is a work in progress.  I am 100% a believer that a problem can't be solved until it is owned.  In other words, if I am being bullied, I will continue to be bullied until I accept some measure of responsibility for my situation.  I'm not saying that a victim of bullying is to blame for it.  Rather, I'm saying that the victim of bullying will only be able to influence a situation in which he or she some measure of control.  But this won't work if the parents don't believe it, too.  Kids are, for the most part, remarkably resilient.  Where we fail them, is when we reinforce the idea that they have no measure of responsibility within a situation.  As a result, they have no control or ability to influence a situation and, that ultimately leads to a loss of hope.  Another side note is that I had two friends in high school who committed suicide.  One was a lifelong victim of abuse and the other was gay.  

I will say that with an Aspergers situation, it was in some ways a little easier.  Like with my brother, a positive aspect of the Aspergers is that my son appreciates direct and specific feedback.  "Hey kiddo.  You're in my space and it's making me a little uncomfortable.  Most people prefer it if you stand about 2 feet away."  Now, it's often along the lines of, "Hey, you're pretty stinky, kiddo.  Go take a shower before you go outside."  Obviously, that kind of direct feedback won't always be appropriate.


----------



## oftheherd1 (Oct 17, 2012)

Steve said:


> I agree with everything you've said, Kirk, and appreciate the time you took to respond. I want to clarify a few things, myself. I have also given a lot of thought to the topic. My brother was diagnosed with Aspergers and was bullied relentlessly throughout his life, as a child and as an adult in the military. Picture a guy in the 101st Airborne who has Aspergers and you can imagine how well he got along as a young adult. He and I were very close in age. I'm just barely a year younger. So we were almost always at the same schools.
> 
> I was also bullied relentlessly as a child, and I'm ashamed to say that I was more than happy to join in when some other poor kid deflected some of that negative attention from myself. This has led me to believe a few things to be true. First, having been a bully and also a victim of bullying, I see how much alike the two are. Second, I believe that many (I like to believe _most)_ bullies are not inherently despicable human beings and have as much an opportunity to become happy, healthy and productive as a victim of bullying.
> 
> My point _isn't _that it's easy to deal with bullying. I have one major point, and that's the need to take care of both sides of the equation. Kids who bully are often ALSO being bullied. Kids who are bullied are often ALSO bullying other kids. While the best way to handle things will vary from kid to kid, it really bums me out that so often, adults look at an issue like bullying without acknowledging that there are always at least two children who need help, and neither of the two is more or less important than the other.



Steve - Thanks for that insight.  My guess is that it pains you to admit to some of those things.  I am sure it would me.  But I not only thank you for giving me insight to you earlier replies, but for the insight it has given me.  I don't think I had ever considered a 'bully' being like you.  That was enlightening.  I will have to include those insights in my thoughts on bullying.  Mind you, my past experience tends me to believe you are an exception, not the rule.  But I congratulate you on overcoming any desire to bully.



Steve said:


> Wouldn't you agree that bullying is a topic that has the potential to touch a lot of nerves? But let me assure you I'm not overly upset. Just somewhat passionate.
> 
> *Passionate I now understand.
> *
> ...



Again, not trying to be confrontational, just trying to understand where you come from.  And again, thanks for your earlier replies.


----------



## Steve (Oct 17, 2012)

oftheherd1 said:


> Steve - Thanks for that insight. My guess is that it pains you to admit to some of those things. I am sure it would me.


Yes and no.  I'm ashamed of it, but I'm pretty self aware.  There is one kid in particular where I still feel bad when I think of it.  I was fighting every day at school in Houston, so when we moved to Austin, TX, my parents put my brother and I into a private school.  Well, with a fresh start, I was determined not to take any s*** from anyone.  My strategy was to ensure that someone else bore the brunt.  So, I just mercilessly provoked a kid in my class until he would just lose it.  I never struck him or physically even touched him.  I just provoked him until he charged like a wild bull and would laugh as I moved and he would run into a tree or a wall.  What a jerk, right?  But understand that at the time, I was so incredibly fed up and frustrated that I was determined to change my situation.  And, at the time, because he was being bullied and I wasn't, he got counseling and help, and I was left to sort things out myself.  Fortunately, because I dealt with it the hard way over a period of decades, my son benefited when I saw the same behavior in him.  





> Well, to push or strike someone in a bullying situation is a crime. To threaten to push or strike someone is also a crime. To threaten to do anything illegal to a person is a crime. Intimidation usually is a threat to do something to the victim's person or property. How do you define bullying?


I would actually appreciate more education in this area.  If we're talking about kids, I just don't see it being assault.  There are points where it progresses to assault.  Are there any LEO or lawyers who are familiar with juvenile law?


----------



## pgsmith (Oct 17, 2012)

> Kids are, for the most part, remarkably resilient. Where we fail them, is when we reinforce the idea that they have no measure of responsibility within a situation.


This has been a very interesting read y'all, thanks! I quoted that line above because I firmly believe that this is at the root of most bullying behavior. It has been my experience in raising my own sons, and working many years with teenage boys in Scouting, that all children require a measure of control over their environment. They need to be able to make their own decisions and so be able to control, to an extent, what is happening around them. The less control over their lives that children have, the more abherrant their behavior becomes in an attempt to regain control. Bullying behavior is an attempt to exert control over the environment. It is my firm belief that it is the children's *parents* that need to be educated here far more than it is the children themselves. Proper parenting skills can allow the child to make enough of their own decisions in areas that won't cause them lasting harm if they make a poor decision. This allows the child to feel more secure in their environment and themselves, and allows them to develop the discretion necessary to make good decisions their entire lives. However, it all has to start with the parents, not the children.

Just my two cent's.


----------



## oftheherd1 (Oct 18, 2012)

Steve said:


> Yes and no. I'm ashamed of it, but I'm pretty self aware.
> 
> *IMHO that's a big leap that most people don't make.  Good for you.
> *...
> ...



I wonder if you are disinclined to consider bullying less than a crime because of you own experiences?  And if you therefore have separated bullying as a type of act, from the manifestation of the act of bullying, which in fact manifests itself as criminal behavior.  Even the act you described above would be a crime in some jurisdictions.  In the UCMJ (military law), it was called Provoking Speeches and Gestures ( http://usmilitary.about.com/od/punitivearticles/a/mcm117.htm ).  Granted it was a thing seldom used, but it was there and available for punishment of that type of conduct.  If you read the link, it was there to try and prevent a breach of the peace, something which you in fact accomplished.

Nonetheless, I think it is something worthy of discussion.  Should we give kids a pass on the law when they bully?  Could we use that in any way as a tool to prevent bullying?


----------



## Steve (Oct 18, 2012)

Here's a fact sheet from the State of Virginia.  It's interesting because it clarifies some of the definitions, but if you look at the "What to do" section, no where does it say, "Call the police."  Instead, it offers the same old advice, some practical and some not.  

http://www.virginiarules.com/virginia-rules/bullying

This is pretty typical.  Bullying isn't illegal.  And as adults, bullying isn't illegal, either, even in the workplace.  People think that if your boss is awful, setting you up to fail, embarrassing you in front of your peers, shifting workloads, and even lying about all of it, that it's discrimination or a hostile workplace.  It's not... usually.  It's very rare that a situation progresses that far.

Most bullying, with kids and with adults, isn't criminal.  It's being mean... cruel, even, in a very specific and methodical way.  Even with a physical component, it doesn't begin to approach illegal until there's a real or perceived safety concern.


----------



## lklawson (Oct 18, 2012)

Steve said:


> Here's a fact sheet from the State of Virginia.  It's interesting because it clarifies some of the definitions, but if you look at the "What to do" section, no where does it say, "Call the police."  Instead, it offers the same old advice, some practical and some not.
> 
> http://www.virginiarules.com/virginia-rules/bullying


[h=3]If  I am being bullied, what should I do?[/h] 	    You can stand up to bullies if you know what to do.


Try to talk it out. Say, Why are you being mean to me?  Translation: Do something ineffective
Walk away from the  bully.  Translation: Try to keep away from the bully even though it's impossible; voluntarily ostracize yourself.
Speak up. Say, Stop picking on me!  Translation: Do something ineffective
Make a joke. If you say something funny, even about  yourself, the bully might laugh and forget to pick on you.  Translation: Be a proxy bully to yourself for the actual bully.
Stick with your  friends.  Translation: Try to keep away from the bully even though it's impossible; voluntarily ostracize yourself.
Ask an adult for help.  Translation: Ask an adult to help; they can't actually do anything either but it might make you feel better.
Don't get physical.  Translation: Just stand there and take it, he'll wear out eventually and maybe you'll still have some teeth; remember we have Zero Thought... err.. Zero Tolerance rules here.

You're right, same-ol-same-ol.




> This is pretty typical.  Bullying isn't illegal.  And as adults, bullying isn't illegal, either, even in the workplace.  People think that if your boss is awful, setting you up to fail, embarrassing you in front of your peers, shifting workloads, and even lying about all of it, that it's discrimination or a hostile workplace.  It's not... usually.  It's very rare that a situation progresses that far.
> 
> Most bullying, with kids and with adults, isn't criminal.  It's being mean... cruel, even, in a very specific and methodical way.  Even with a physical component, it doesn't begin to approach illegal until there's a real or perceived safety concern.


Thanks for clearing that up.  I agree there is a lot of confusion so I appreciate you posting this link.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## oftheherd1 (Oct 18, 2012)

Steve,

The thread you mention is interesting.  And although it points out that bullying isn't itself a crime in the Virginia Commonwealth, it does say, as I did, that many of the acts through which bullying is manifested, are themselves criminal acts, such as punching, threats, hazing, etc.

And many of the things mentioned are physical, and safety concerns.  But I think we are just going to have to accept that we have different understandings of a definition of bullying, and move on.  I don't quite agree with yours, and obviously you don't agree with mine.  That's OK, since we each have a right to our own opinion.

I think you have a unique perspective on bullying that most of us don't have.  I am still processing all you have said, and still find your perspective fascinating.  I know what you have already said, but am now wondering if you have any other suggestions that might be useful when someone asks any of us what to do if a child we know is being bullied.  I agree the suggestions on the Virginia site seem a little trite, but are there better ones?  I'm really interested since as I said, most of us lack the advantage you have of the perspective of both sides of the issue.  Is there anything that might have prevented you from bullying that wasn't tried?


----------



## Steve (Oct 18, 2012)

oftheherd1 said:


> Steve,
> 
> The thread you mention is interesting.  And although it points out that bullying isn't itself a crime in the Virginia Commonwealth, it does say, as I did, that many of the acts through which bullying is manifested, are themselves criminal acts, such as punching, threats, hazing, etc.


Criminal... sort of.  Again, even where they are "criminal acts," there is no practical legal component.  I'm not trying to prove you wrong.  I think you're right, but that it's a somewhat academic label that isn't all that practical.  What i mean is, when a child is bullied, even physically bullied, the police are very unlikely to be involved.  The child or children may be disciplined, but the progressive discipline is a matter of school and district policy than local, state or federal law.  That is, unless it's severe enough that the kids and adults involved believe there is a threat to a child's safety.  Most won't.   I hope that clears it up.  





> And many of the things mentioned are physical, and safety concerns.  But I think we are just going to have to accept that we have different understandings of a definition of bullying, and move on.  I don't quite agree with yours, and obviously you don't agree with mine.  That's OK, since we each have a right to our own opinion.


Absolutely.  My only concern is that we're understanding each other, so that when I say "bully," you understand what I mean, and vice versa. 


> I think you have a unique perspective on bullying that most of us don't have.  I am still processing all you have said, and still find your perspective fascinating.  I know what you have already said, but am now wondering if you have any other suggestions that might be useful when someone asks any of us what to do if a child we know is being bullied.  I agree the suggestions on the Virginia site seem a little trite, but are there better ones?  I'm really interested since as I said, most of us lack the advantage you have of the perspective of both sides of the issue.  Is there anything that might have prevented you from bullying that wasn't tried?


Okay, I'll just lay it out as clearly as I can, and I've mentioned some of this in earlier posts.

I'll start by saying that the reason kids bully other kids varies.  There is no one thing that will work for all kids.  So, given that, I'm not going to worry overly much about every possible contingency, so that I can be somewhat specific.  

To start, in general, we have a couple of social issues right now.  First is that, in general, there is a tendency to look to the courts for answers instead of working them out ourselves.  Second, helicopter parenting and an emphasis on standardized testing has limited our kids ability to learn problem solving and critical thinking skills that allow them to act independently.  Add to this the ability to google anything, and we have an entire generation of kids for whom information is a disposable commodity.  In other words, kids now do very little solving problems.  They are trained from birth to first look for someone else to solve it for them.  It's something that manifests in almost every aspect of society.

So, in that vein, I started with my son by asking what he could have done differently and putting the onus on him to change the situation.  In a way, I guess you could say that I'm blaming the victim.  I think that's a negative way of saying that I insist that a child who is bullied is not powerless to change the situation.  This is a frame of mind that is critical, and it both stems from and feeds self confidence and a sense of control.

Personally, I bullied because I became determined to exert some control over my own situation.  I wasn't going to be bullied.  I believe that's absolutely the right mind set.  Now, what I needed then, was someone to channel my determination to take action with tools that would help me do so in a positive way.  Lacking those tools, I saw things in pretty simple terms: victims and bullies.  I didn't want to be a victim, so....  I lacked the experience and maturity to see other alternatives and didn't have a mentor or counselor to help.

So, first thing to do is to help the kids accept responsibility for their own situation and come up with a plan for taking control over their own actions.

Some other things I think are good ideas: 

Don't intercede directly unless it's a matter of safety or if you're asked (or have asked) your child to do so first.  I don't mean behind the scenes.  What I'm talking about is "saving" your child.
Be vocal with the school staff.  Talk to them. Ask them questions and be assertive.  Advocate for your child.
Understand the difference between unconditional love and living with blinders on.  There is a very real possibility that your child is part of the problem.  This isn't a judgement or a reflection on you, your parenting skills or even your child.  Children are figuring stuff out, and the goal isn't to have a perfect young child.  It's to have a happy, healthy, well adjusted adult, successful, adult child.  Parenting is a marathon.
Be an expert on your child's individual needs, be they medical, emotional or physical.  Be patient with people who are not experts and take the time to educate them when necessary.
Allow your child to struggle, but understand that there is a difference between struggling and suffering.

I'm sure I can think of others, but my intent wasn't/isn't to dominate the thread, and I hope that this gets back to what the original post had in mind.


----------



## Never_A_Reflection (Oct 18, 2012)

I was bullied from Preschool all the way through High School, both physically and verbally. I will admit that I was a bit of a bully on chat rooms from time to time, because I had anonymity and power there, and there was a span of a few weeks where I did verbally and physically bully two Freshmen that I did not get along with in Geometry class when I was a Junior because I was older and bigger than they were and I wanted to see what it felt like to be on the giving end. I did stop bullying those two after a few weeks when I noticed that my efforts seemed to be affecting them outside of that one class, but as much as I hate to say it I enjoyed every second of it--bullying them was the only time that I felt I had any power over anything in the real world. I take no pride in that, and it is difficult for me to acknowledge and reveal that part of myself.

I suspect that bullies are either people who have been bullied (or abused) and are trying to take power back, rather like I did for a short time, people who have been raised in an environment that promotes bullying and bully-like behavior, or people who simply do not understand that they are bullying someone. With those things in mind, I think it in order to reduce bullying (you'll never stop it completely) we need to address both the bullied and the bully, as a couple people in this thread have already mentioned. We can tell children to be confident, avoid bullies, stay in groups, say "leave me alone" and tell the teacher all we want, but those things most often fail, and in some cases they make the bullying worse. I believe that the best thing that can be done is to address the bullies directly and get professional psychologists involved in finding the root of their behavior so that it can be changed. It is much easier to counsel the bullied when the bullying is stopped.

Short of that, as much as I know we all want to say to avoid it, the most historically reliable method of dealing with bullies is to fight back and win.  I did all the things I was supposed to in order to curb the bullying I received, and the only bully I ever got to leave me alone was the one I punched square in the groin. My best friend had a very similar experience. People I know from other schools have had similar experiences. My own father figured out very early in his school career that this is what worked and took up the policy to take the direct approach immediately and beat up the bully, which solved his problems (and his younger brother's) right away. It may be the last thing we want to tell people to do, but without addressing the bully's behavior directly the only thing that works reliably to stop it is fighting back, whether we like it or not. The biggest problem that I see with that, other than the Zero Tolerance rule, is the fact that it does not stop the bully from being a bully to other people--it only resolves the issue on a case-by-case basis--so, once again, the best option is to find the bully and get professional help in treating their behavior.

That's just my opinion, and I am no professional.


----------



## oftheherd1 (Oct 19, 2012)

Steve and Never_A_Reflection,

Thanks very much for your insights and suggestions.  You really have brought out some things about bullies I had not considered before.  It makes me feel like a real dummy.  I don't know what others here think, but believe your insights and suggestions are good and worthy of consideration.  I think it may help with my grandkids as well, although I naturally hope I never have to find out.  I understand no one solution is going to fit all circumstances, that is almost never true.  But I feel like I have some new tools should I need them.

Steve, I do want to put you on the spot.  I have always felt Never_A_Reflection's final and best solution of beating the bully to be closest to the a one-fits-all solution.  But I have also heard of times when the bully felt so threatened, that he became worse, or enlisted hangers-on to ensure he could strike back more forcefully.  Do you think that would have inclined you to stop being a bully, at least towards those who might have fought back?  Sorry to ask you to bear your soul, but as I said, you, and now Never_A_Reflection, can show us a side we may never otherwise have access to.  Never_A_Reflection, if you want to chime in on that please do.

One thing that interests me is how many others could speak up and acknowledge having been a bully, for whatever reason, but having moved on from it, just don't want to admit it as it so much is not how they want to be seen.  In my case, I don't think I have bullied.  But it would depend on definition.  

I can recall some times when someone was being teased that I may have gone a little too far in my joining in.  On after-thought, if I thought I may have crossed the line, I would always get with the 'victim' and make amends, or when I thought it had gone too far, say so to the crowd in some way to give them the out of stopping without looking weak.  And there have definitely been times when I took up for someone who was being bullied.  I always thought bullying was somewhat cowardly as well as mean behavior.  Bullies seem to pick on people they consider defenseless, and I really dislike that.

Part of that is my upbringing, watching out for the underdog, and part because when you do things like that, you become rather unpopular yourself.  And that can cause you to become a victim of bullying.  It happened to me, especially in high school.  There was never anything physical, but always the implied threat of violence, which I was careful to try and not provoke.  My solution was to talk to those who did, but in as non-confrontational a method as possible.  That pretty much worked for me and seemed to frustrate those trying to bully me no end.  

Maybe the bully dance was a little different than now.  But I would question their motives, suggest that I felt their attempts to provoke me to violence would not work, or whatever other non-agressive action seemed best.  Since they would usually have picked a rather public setting to make themselves feel better, if I could get others to seem to agree with me and disagree with them, it put them at a disadvantage.  Sometimes I would be told in private by others that they thought I did the right thing, but honestly, I tended not to feel very manly about it.  I often wished I could just with great confidence, jump up in their face and scare them off or actually beat them up.  Thankfully, I never tried that.

Anyone else wish to comment?


----------



## lklawson (Oct 19, 2012)

oftheherd1 said:


> Anyone else wish to comment?


As I said, I think most guys were bullied to some degree at some point.  I know I was during my early school years.  My mother recalls me taking a sewing pin to school for self protection.  While I have no recollection of that event, I do remember several others.  I clearly recall one event where I was walking home and was assaulted by a group of about 5 other kids (pushing, punches, mostly light stuff).  I must have been about 10 and my 8 year old brother was with me.  I grabbed a single person "skipping" toy someone had left in their yard, a weight at the end of a cord which gets attached to the ankle.  I spun it about over my head like a slungshot and backed everyone off.  By the time I was in High School, I had pretty much figured out how to deflect the bullying and and not be the easy target so it was not a problem for me any longer.  However, it still griped my soul when I saw it happen to others.  So much so, in fact, that on more than one occasion, I stepped in in defense of the victim.  Yes, this did make me the new target.  While I was able to stop it before it came to a fight, it was close on at least two occasions but eventually the bully backed down.  But it *was *close and the bully *did *have to see that I was willing to stand up to him physically each time.  OK, I admit that one was a not-quite-fight but also not-quite-not-a-fight.  In that event, the bully threw a (really crappy) kick at me.  I caught it, and twisted until he fell.  No injuries but it could have escalated easily.

Damn.  I haven't thought of any of those events in years.  I can't begin to articulate the mix of emotions that hit me as I write.  I'm already feeling the adrenalin dump.  Cumulatively they really left an impression on me.

So what did I learn?  I learned that all of this, "tell an adult, make fun of yourself, avoid the bully" is complete and utter BS that school systems put in place to avoid litigious parents.  The only thing that ever worked once you became a target was the immediate threat of violence or, at the very least "standing up" and refusing to be the victim (which pretty much equates to the same thing).  No, I don't feel as "bad ***" as this may seem to come across.  I was almost always scared at the time.

You can only imagine how I actually felt when I found my own son being bullied.  I didn't want him to have to go through the same stuff.  I can't protect him from it but hopefully I have and can continue to prepare him to address it for himself.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## lklawson (Oct 19, 2012)

Never_A_Reflection said:


> Short of that, as much as I know we all want to say to avoid it, the most historically reliable method of dealing with bullies is to fight back and win.  I did all the things I was supposed to in order to curb the bullying I received, and the only bully I ever got to leave me alone was the one I punched square in the groin. My best friend had a very similar experience. People I know from other schools have had similar experiences. My own father figured out very early in his school career that this is what worked and took up the policy to take the direct approach immediately and beat up the bully, which solved his problems (and his younger brother's) right away. It may be the last thing we want to tell people to do, but without addressing the bully's behavior directly the only thing that works reliably to stop it is fighting back, whether we like it or not. The biggest problem that I see with that, other than the Zero Tolerance rule, is the fact that it does not stop the bully from being a bully to other people--it only resolves the issue on a case-by-case basis--so, once again, the best option is to find the bully and get professional help in treating their behavior.


These stories are so universal in theme that I have concluded that they represent the majority of truth.  Most of the time this is what it honestly, truly, takes to stop the behavior.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Steve (Oct 19, 2012)

oftheherd1 said:


> Steve and Never_A_Reflection,
> 
> Thanks very much for your insights and suggestions.  You really have brought out some things about bullies I had not considered before.  It makes me feel like a real dummy.  I don't know what others here think, but believe your insights and suggestions are good and worthy of consideration.  I think it may help with my grandkids as well, although I naturally hope I never have to find out.  I understand no one solution is going to fit all circumstances, that is almost never true.  But I feel like I have some new tools should I need them.
> 
> Steve, I do want to put you on the spot.  I have always felt Never_A_Reflection's final and best solution of beating the bully to be closest to the a one-fits-all solution.  But I have also heard of times when the bully felt so threatened, that he became worse, or enlisted hangers-on to ensure he could strike back more forcefully.  Do you think that would have inclined you to stop being a bully, at least towards those who might have fought back?  Sorry to ask you to bear your soul, but as I said, you, and now Never_A_Reflection, can show us a side we may never otherwise have access to.  Never_A_Reflection, if you want to chime in on that please do.


Okay.  So, a little more background.  I am a ginger (well, was when I had hair. )  I have an IQ somewhere in the high 140s and we moved a lot.  So, I'm in the 3rd grade and we move to Universal City, just outside of Texas.   So, I'm new and ginger, which is bad enough.  But then, about 2 months into the year, they put me in "gifted classes."  So, an hour or so into the day I'd have to get up and go to the nerd classes.  By the time I got back, I'd have a note on my desk telling me who was going to kick my *** after school.  The community was new, so the elementary school was a walking school and about once a week, I'd get jumped by a group of kids in front of a large audience.  Sometimes, I did okay, and sometimes I didn't.  Sometimes it was one kid, and sometimes it was a group of up to 4 or 5 kids.  But I'd get to stew on it all day, from about 10 in the morning until school ended.  And kids would come by and remind me, "Hey.  So and so is going to be waiting for you after school, carrot top.  I can't wait."  Yeah.  

A year or so later, in Baton Rouge, LA, I was getting into fights at the bus stop where a group of kids would pick on me and my brother.  One day, I'll never forget, this one kid who was the ringleader of that little group, and didn't even go to our school... he was a couple years older,  jumped me and he's got me mounted and is pounding on me when the bus shows up.  All the other kids get on the bus and the bus driver, from still on the bus, yells at us to knock it off, and when we don't, he just left me there.  Took off.   

After that was Houston, where, in the 5th grade, I tried a different tack.  I started using tobacco for the first time and hanging around with the sharks in the school, to learn some survival skills.  Then, in the 6th grade, we moved to Austin and I went to a private school where this poor kid just never had a chance.

So, all of that is background to just demonstrate that by the time I got to the private school, I had no fear of pain, and this kid represented absolutely no threat to me, even when he did try to fight back.  I never punched him, but I would provoke him to the point that he would charge me, and I'd move out the way and let him run into a wall.  He could grab me, but I'd been in so many fights by then that he had no chance.  And had he actually landed a punch, I sincerely doubt it would have even registered.  It's not like I hadn't been punched in the nose by people before.  





> One thing that interests me is how many others could speak up and acknowledge having been a bully, for whatever reason, but having moved on from it, just don't want to admit it as it so much is not how they want to be seen.  In my case, I don't think I have bullied.  But it would depend on definition.


I'm interested in that, as well, because I just can't believe that my experiences are unique. I'd like to think not, at least. 


> I can recall some times when someone was being teased that I may have gone a little too far in my joining in.  On after-thought, if I thought I may have crossed the line, I would always get with the 'victim' and make amends, or when I thought it had gone too far, say so to the crowd in some way to give them the out of stopping without looking weak.  And there have definitely been times when I took up for someone who was being bullied.  I always thought bullying was somewhat cowardly as well as mean behavior.  Bullies seem to pick on people they consider defenseless, and I really dislike that.


I would say that typical bullying isn't about bravery or cowardice as much as it's about low esteem, perceived control over a situation and a lack of social skills.





> Part of that is my upbringing, watching out for the underdog, and part because when you do things like that, you become rather unpopular yourself.  And that can cause you to become a victim of bullying. It happened to me, especially in high school.  There was never anything physical, but always the implied threat of violence, which I was careful to try and not provoke.  My solution was to talk to those who did, but in as non-confrontational a method as possible.  That pretty much worked for me and seemed to frustrate those trying to bully me no end.


I went to Garfield High in Seattle as well as Marshall for night school and Summer school for two years.  By the time I got into high school, I was smoking a pack a day along with other things AND on the chess team.  I skirted around the periphery of both social groups and was as happy smoking weed as I was drinking coffee and talking about politics or philosophy.  Point is, by underachieving and blending in, bullying just wasn't an issue for me anymore.  Of course, I graduated from high school with a 1.7 GPA... but it turned out okay.  While I still didn't have the social skills to become overly friendly with the mainstream groups, I found a solid home with the misfits of the school of all stripes, from the stoners to the nerds.  I was as comfortable in the print shop as I was in the journalism room or out on the smoking ramp.





> Maybe the bully dance was a little different than now.  But I would question their motives, suggest that I felt their attempts to provoke me to violence would not work, or whatever other non-agressive action seemed best.  Since they would usually have picked a rather public setting to make themselves feel better, if I could get others to seem to agree with me and disagree with them, it put them at a disadvantage.  Sometimes I would be told in private by others that they thought I did the right thing, but honestly, I tended not to feel very manly about it.  I often wished I could just with great confidence, jump up in their face and scare them off or actually beat them up.  Thankfully, I never tried that.


Yeah, I don't know.  I think that kids in high school can be helped quite a bit, but the real key is to start early.  As I said before, being realistic and honest as an adult about who is doing what and why, and remembering that every child is a work in progress will help that kid more than telling them to find an adult.

I'll also say that I was still learning hard social lessons into my late twenties, through my time in the military and also early in my marriage, and it's only because I've been brutally honest with myself, along with having some friends who have been courageous enough to tell me the truth that I am where I am.  I genuinely wish that I'd had that as a child, and that more than anything is what I'm talking about.  Would have saved me a lot of pain.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 14, 2012)

I was reading this thread over, and really would like to bring it back. I know that people shared their personal stories on here, and respect that a lot, however I don't think that is the way this thread was meant to go. Does anyone have any practical way to help people being bullied and try to stop bullying from occurring? 

Despite what I said, I'm not trying to undercut anyone else's experiences, so I would like to share my own as well, so you guys don't think I don't take your personal experiences seriously.

I do not have any mental problem that we know of, however I was bullied quite a lot when I was younger, in two distinct ages. First, when I was in preschool, I had a serious speech problem, to the point where only my brother could understand what I was saying until I was about 6, and the problem still hadn't gone away. Because of that, I had no friends in preschool, and my very first memories were me crying in class and no one wanting to play with me. Also, in 4th grade I had a class with my best friend and someone else who was being picked on. A few weeks into the school year I told the kids who were picking on him to stop, but being small and having a weird voice no one cared and just started verbally and physically abusing me instead. My best friend stopped talking to me so he wouldn't get picked on and both him and the kid who I stood up for joined in, it continued for the entire year. I cut myself in 4th grade, and if it wasn't for my dog and my brother I probably would have killed myself. I started taking Kempo seriously because of that, and to catch up to my brothers rank, and got in a few fights that year and the year after to stop the bullying. I got in trouble, and some teachers thought I was a bully, but it worked so I was ok with that. That was the end of my being bullied. However, I no longer hung out with my 'jock' friends, and started hanging out with a nerdier crowd who I found to be nicer and more fun. They still got bullied, so I ended up standing up for them, and throughout middle school/the beginning of high school I got in multiple fights defending them from bullies, once or twice sending people to the hospital. No one but the people involved and my family ever knew it was me, and my family never found out how severe it was, and chalked it up to the anger problems they thought I had (and I did have them, just not as bad as my family thought I did). Eventually people stopped bullying my friends as well, and in college luckily no one has tried to bully any of my friends, but they all know that if they did I would protect them. 

HOWEVER, this, in my mind, is the absolute worst way to deal with bullying. I could have accidentally killed someone, or been put in juvie just for sticking up for my friends. I could have also been killed accidentally (I don't think any of them really wanted to kill me). I'm sure there must be a better way to deal with it, and would love if people could brainstorm ideas to find that better way. Despite the original post, I don't care if it is or isn't related to martial arts, as long as its effective and isn't as dangerous as the solution I had come up with. So pleas, brainstorm away. I will probably contribute when I don't have to worry about a final in the morning that I should be resting for.


----------



## WC_lun (Dec 14, 2012)

I honestly do not know how to really curtail the bullying unless it is nipped in the bud as soon as it apears.  I've had to endure the stories of my 13 year old nephew and his best friend being bullied.  One instance involved my nephew getting stabbed by another student with a pencil unprovoked.  The next day my nephew took things into his own hands.  Similiar situation with his best friend.  Though in both cases the boys were defending themselves from bullying they recieved the same and in my nephew's case greater repurcussions than the bullies.  Until schools start using common sense and teachers and administrators are willing to get involved at the very first sign of a problem, it will continue.


----------



## Em MacIntosh (Dec 14, 2012)

How you deal with bullying is have all the students band together to protect the victim whenever it happens.  This validates the victim as a human being and forces the bully to consider taking on the whole school or changing his ways.  Unfortunately bullying is entertaining for everyone except the victim.  It's encouraged sadism that says a lot about the spectators' lack of compassion.  It requires a paradigm shift of care that I doubt we'll ever see unless it's enforced.  This is how I think bullies _should _be dealt with not how I want them dealt with (removed from society as dangerous human beings).  

By nature a bully picks someone easy.  It's not the victim's fault that they're easy, nor is it always possible for a victim to stand up to a bully and his six friends.  Nor can the victim expect anything to be done to protect them. They're told every cliche only to return to misery and thoughts of suicide.  A rapist is a bully.  A bully can be a rapist.  That's the seriousness of it and should be dealt with as such, not accepted as a part of growing up or merely as a part of life.  

I guess people are only as rational as it suits them personally.


----------



## lklawson (Dec 14, 2012)

Em MacIntosh said:


> How you deal with bullying is have all the students band together to protect the victim whenever it happens.


How exactly do you accomplish this since it goes against human nature?



> Unfortunately bullying is entertaining for everyone except the victim.


Bullying isn't usually about entertainment for the bully and it never is for the spectators. It's about power, survival instinct, and tribalism/acceptance instincts.



> It's encouraged sadism that says a lot about the spectators' lack of compassion.


No it doesn't.  It proves that the spectators are typical humans who have never had any specific training to circumvent their natural reactions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect



> It requires a paradigm shift of care that I doubt we'll ever see unless it's enforced.


I'm sorry, friend, but you can't "enforce" it.  It requires specific socialization skills to be *taught* right along with "it's wrong to lie" and "wash your hands after you pee."



> By nature a bully picks someone easy.


Frequently, but not always.  More often than not, I'd say.  That's why "standing up to them" with physical violence is so often effective.



> They're told every cliche only to return to misery and thoughts of suicide.


I agree.  The stock answers are, to be more kind than is warranted, *idiotic beyond belief*.



> A rapist is a bully.


There's a whole lot to a rape that often isn't just "bullying" so let's not confuse and conflate the two.  Let's keep they physiology of each separate for now.  It's extremely complex.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Em MacIntosh (Dec 16, 2012)

"Human Nature" is an excuse people use when they don't want to try, not an explanation for why something won't work.  Human nature is sentience and decision.  The ability to reason.

That being said, the first casualty of passion is reason.  I'm livid right now, snowballing on the subject.

I'll just say that my experiences disagree with most of what you've said.  Perhaps I can address it specifically when I calm down.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Dec 17, 2012)

lklawson said:


> There's a whole lot to a rape that often isn't just "bullying" so let's not confuse and conflate the two.  Let's keep they physiology of each separate for now.  It's extremely complex.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


This is just a personal revelation, but I see rapists as being lazy. They choose the easiest targets, and just like thieves, they would rather steal what they want than work for it. Just a thought. Also, I'm sure rapists feel like they are a victim of something; so, the first work they need to do, is change the way they feel, and that ain't easy.
Sean


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 17, 2012)

Touch Of Death said:


> This is just a personal revelation, but I see rapists as being lazy. They choose the easiest targets, and just like thieves, they would rather steal what they want than work for it. Just a thought. Also, I'm sure rapists feel like they are a victim of something; so, the first work they need to do, is change the way they feel, and that ain't easy.
> Sean



I'm not sure you want to go down this road. It would be better to leave rape out of this, rapists aren't 'lazy', their motives are far darker and far worse.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Dec 17, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> I'm not sure you want to go down this road. It would be better to leave rape out of this, rapists aren't 'lazy', their motives are far darker and far worse.


I know, that is why I mentioned the victim mentality, and I will stand by that!, but trust me they are taking something that doesn't belong to them.


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 17, 2012)

Touch Of Death said:


> I know, that is why I mentioned the victim mentality, and I will stand by that!, but trust me they are taking something that doesn't belong to them.



It's odd that you can put a smiley on your sentence. Sex and sexual urges have little to do with rape and it's all about power,degradation, violence and humiliation for the victim. It's not about the sexual act it's about how the rapist can make the vistim feel, they use the sexual act because it's a certain way to degrade the person they are doing it to. It's sex as power. 
Most people laugh when they see their dog 'humping' someone's leg, they think it's that their dog is being 'sexy' or something, wrong it's about power, that dog is saying that he's literally the top dog, he's in charge. A lot of animals will use the sexual act to impose their will, humans are no different. Rape is used by those in charge of invading armies as a means to subdue the people, it humiliates more than the person raped. In Libya before Gaddafi fell he gave his soldiers Viagra to enable them to rape more women, he's not been the only dictator to do this.

http://www.rapecrisis.org.uk/whymythsexist2.php


As I said you don't really want to go down this route on this thread.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Dec 17, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> It's odd that you can put a smiley on your sentence. Sex and sexual urges have little to do with rape and it's all about power,degradation, violence and humiliation for the victim. It's not about the sexual act it's about how the rapist can make the vistim feel, they use the sexual act because it's a certain way to degrade the person they are doing it to. It's sex as power.
> Most people laugh when they see their dog 'humping' someone's leg, they think it's that their dog is being 'sexy' or something, wrong it's about power, that dog is saying that he's literally the top dog, he's in charge. A lot of animals will use the sexual act to impose their will, humans are no different. Rape is used by those in charge of invading armies as a means to subdue the people, it humiliates more than the person raped. In Libya before Gaddafi fell he gave his soldiers Viagra to enable them to rape more women, he's not been the only dictator to do this.
> 
> http://www.rapecrisis.org.uk/whymythsexist2.php
> ...


I don't remember mentioning sex and sexual urges.


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 17, 2012)

Touch Of Death said:


> I don't remember mentioning sex and sexual urges.




I don't think there can be a meaningful discussion with someone who keeps putting smilies on sentences discussing rape.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Dec 17, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> I don't think there can be a meaningful discussion with someone who keeps putting smilies on sentences discussing rape.


I'm sorry if it upsets you.


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 17, 2012)

Touch Of Death said:


> I'm sorry if it upsets you.



Rape has that effect.

This is a thread about bullying.


----------



## Cyriacus (Dec 17, 2012)

Without meaning to further derail us, the way i understand it, rape is functionally similar (but nothing like) bullying, or posturing over someone. Its a way of asserting your dominance over them by breaking them down. And for the victim, rape is very damaging. That damage is what gives the rapist their feeling of dominance, in a functionally similar way to how fear or pain may cause a bully to repeatedly target the same person. In a lesser sense, simply posturing up over someone and threatening them, which could lead to a fight if the situation isnt taken control of, leads to the person doing the threatening to feel stronger, or dominant. Its a way of dominating someone in order to empower yourself.

It doesnt make a bully a coward, or a rapist a person with a victim complex, or a violent individual a wimp.
It makes a bully a bully, a rapist a rapist, and a violent individual a violent individual.
Im open to be corrected if someone has more knowledge on the subject, but trying to turn a perpetrator into something menial and small to make it look like all their crimes are an attempt to prove themselves or something, is unnecessary and id perhaps even say inaccurate.


----------



## chinto (Dec 17, 2012)

ok to reply to the original question, here it is, I have ADHD. I was bullied, and ended up in a boarding school where I was the only none street drug using kind in the place! ( yes literally and you can guess how that went over in a high school age situation )  I tried the reason and logic thing, and being nice. Guess what folks... that does NOT work. What does work, especially when the staff say "its your problem you deal with it!" is to make it clear that they can pay a very very heavy price for their attempt.  I had a few months of martial arts years before, but it gave me enough to stop a DEADLY ATTACK.. yes boys and girls the individual wanted to take my life! I struck with a potentially deadly blow and almost killed the attacker!  after that and 2 more times i did some real injury the bulling stopped!  so you must first look at age, then some of the dynamics of the situation. and you must give the victoms the tools to survive! just like in " the real world" of nations, if you have a strong defense and are willing to slug it out and do real damage, the other guy is not that interested! If you are not  able to put up a viable defense, and are defenseless, you WILL be a victim!

I learned this the very hard way! please do not let yourselves or your children learn it that way. its very very costly in many ways.


----------



## Em MacIntosh (Dec 17, 2012)

I see only a difference of degree and a lot of overlap.  I expressed my opinion on the subject and I stand by it.  

It would be nice if you didn't get expelled or suspended for defending yourself.  You do.  Either that or you're very, very lucky.

It's not always a victim mentality, sometimes it's a "nobody listens and I'm desperate" mentality.

Being picked on and assaulted is just the tip of the iceberg.  Some get stripped and sexually assaulted and it might be a lot more common than you think.

I don't believe in evil but I believe cruelty should be dealt with cruelly.  

I don't see why they can't be prosecuted.  Why does the school protect them and call the victim a crybaby with a victim mentality?  They support it.  

Oh, but it's complicated...it's impossible...it's human nature...it's the pecking order...we don't want to _tell _the child to get out of the way and die, we just let _nature_ take it's _course.  Somebody _has to be fed to the important kids' ego.

This doesn't happen: Bully picks on you, you tell them to leave you alone, he wants to fight you after school, you get a bloody nose and then you have respect.  Oh, no!

It's more like this: Bully makes a plan with his friends, they catch you alone, four of them grab you and haul you into the bush.  They take you pants away, kick seven shades out of you, then shove a stick in.  You go to the authorities, the bully denies it, the establishment backs up the bully and calls you a trouble maker.  Now they have a free pass and you're crying wolf.

I'm at the end of my wits!  Why they let this continue is beyond me!  Violent criminals belong behind bars!


----------



## Steve (Dec 17, 2012)

Em MacIntosh said:


> I see only a difference of degree and a lot of overlap.  I expressed my opinion on the subject and I stand by it.
> 
> It would be nice if you didn't get expelled or suspended for defending yourself.  You do.  Either that or you're very, very lucky.
> 
> ...


Em, it sounds like you're responding with some very specific incidents in mind.

Who here has said that bullied kids are cry babies?  What school does that?  I don't know about every where, but the public schools where my kids have attended didn't believe that to be true.

Do you believe that an eye for an eye is, in general, just?  Do you believe that the right thing to do is to be cruel to kids?  I can't agree with you if that's true.  Even cruelty to cruel kids would be wrong, IMO.

Do you believe that all bullies are criminals who should go to jail?  Do you believe that all kids who are bullied are completely innocent, angelic children?

Personally, I think all children are works in progress.  None are perfect.  And most, excepting only a very few, deserve every opportunity to demonstrate growth and become healthy, happy, productive adults.  Putting half or more in jail for bullying would be a little unrealistic.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------



## chinto (Dec 17, 2012)

in my school district any one fighting or having any kind of physical altercation after 7th grade go strait to juvenile hall... that is their " zero tolerance"  policy. Does not matter if there are a dozen witnesses that say so and so attacked so and so!  in short its a policy of Zero Thought and Zero responsibility!

So yes if you defend yourself at all, you go to jail!  if you do not  your still suspended for 3 to 5 days min....   what stupidity!!


----------



## Steve (Dec 17, 2012)

chinto said:


> in my school district any one fighting or having any kind of physical altercation after 7th grade go strait to juvenile hall... that is their " zero tolerance"  policy. Does not matter if there are a dozen witnesses that say so and so attacked so and so!  in short its a policy of Zero Thought and Zero responsibility!
> 
> So yes if you defend yourself at all, you go to jail!  if you do not  your still suspended for 3 to 5 days min....   what stupidity!!



I don't know of any school district that has the authority to send a child to juvenile hall. I would agree that it sounds silly.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------

