# Carry a gun??



## Drac (Nov 25, 2008)

I received permission from John S.Farnam to repost this here...

*Carry a Gun?

"Police Protection" is an contradiction of terms!   Police rarely  stop crimes from taking place.  Rather, we spend most of our time  investigating offences, after the damage has been done, and after innocent  victims have been permanently disabled/deformed or  murdered.

Accordingly, I carry a gun, because I'm too young to be  murdered, and too old to suffer crippling injury at the hands of violent  criminals.

Thus:

I don't go armed, because I harbor a secret desire to kill people, any more than I wear a seat belt while driving, because I have some compulsive desire to  become involved in traffic accidents!  

I don't carry a  gun, so that I can scare people.   I carry a gun, because the world is  a scary place!

I don't carry a gun as a delusional response to  imaginary threats.  I carry a gun, so that I can deal effectively with real  threats!

I don't carry a gun, because I'm evil.   I carry a gun, because  I've already seen more evil than I ever wanted to!

I don't carry a  gun, because I hate government.  I carry a gun, because I've seen how  woefully limited and impotent all governments are!

I don't carry a  gun, because I'm angry.  I carry a gun, so that I won't have to spend the rest of my shortened life being angry with myself for being naively  unprepared.

I don't carry a gun, because I want to become involved  in a lethal confrontation. I carry a gun, because I want to die of  old age, surrounded by family, in my own bed, not alone and hemorrhaging on a  dirty street.

I don't carry a gun, because I'm a Cowboy.   I carry a gun  because, when I die (of old age) and go to Heaven, I want to be a Cowboy!

I don't carry a gun, because it makes me feel like a man.  I carry a  gun because real men know how to take care of themselves, and the ones they  love, and do so without apology!

I don't carry a gun because I'm  "inadequate."  I carry a gun,  because, when unarmed and facing three  brutish thugs, I am inadequate!

I don't carry a gun, because I love  doing it.  I carry a gun, because I love life!

At some point, all of us will have to wager our lives on the outcome of a single event.  There are some things worth risking everything to save; some 
things, without which, there will no longer be anything to live for! *

*At  that **moment, you either step up to the plate, or slink away.  Either way,  you'll **never have another chance!

Last Days of ancient Rome:

"Hew down the Bridge, Sir Consul,
With all the speed ye may:
I, with  two more to help me,
will hold the foe at bay
In yon straight path, a  thousand
May well be stopped by three
Now, who will stand, on either  hand,
And hold this Bridge with me?"

John

*


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## Lisa (Nov 25, 2008)

very nice...very nice indeed.   Thanks Drac!


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## JBrainard (Nov 25, 2008)

I really liked that... However, and not to be negative or anything, some of those don't apply if the person who's packing is a dumb ***.
My brother in law just got his concealed weapons permit. He's not a "bad guy," but I really don't feel safe around idiots with guns.

Question: Is it too easy to get a concealed weapons permit? From what I've seen and heard, it is.


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## elder999 (Nov 25, 2008)

JBrainard said:


> IQuestion: Is it too easy to get a concealed weapons permit? From what I've seen and heard, it is.


 

Depends upon where-it's virtually impossible in Illinois, but here in New Mexico, if you're a "solid citizen," and take an 15 hr. qualification course, you can pretty much count on getting one, so far anyway-NM has only had CCW for a few years, now.


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## thardey (Nov 25, 2008)

In Oregon it's a four-hour class, and a clear criminal check.


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## Drac (Nov 25, 2008)

JBrainard said:


> I really liked that... However, and not to be negative or anything, some of those don't apply if the person who's packing is a dumb ***.


 
No offense taken JB..I've met a few that have their CWP .....





JBrainard said:


> Question: Is it too easy to get a concealed weapons permit? From what I've seen and heard, it is.


 
It aint *that* easy, and you have to pass all elements or no permit is issued..I know a lot of coppers up here that teach that teach the course and they won't just pass you because you showed up in class...You have to show proficiency...


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## Drac (Nov 25, 2008)

Thanks everyone..


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## elder999 (Nov 25, 2008)

Drac said:


> It aint *that* easy, and you have to pass all elements or no permit is issued..I know a lot of coppers up here and they won't just pass you because you showed up in class...You have to show proficiency...


 
In New Mexico, it ain't *that* hard(though some think it excessive.)Demonstrated proficiency requires firing 50 rounds, with the highest caliber you're qualifying to carry. The target is a 12"X18" piece of white paper , and you fire 15 rounds from 3 yards, 20 from 7 yards, and 15 rounds from 15 yards. "Hits" are scored at 2 pts. each, and 76 points is required to pass. I don't know of anyone who has had to take the class more than once-_even those who had only recently taken their first basic pistol course._  Of course, like I said,some think it excessive, for a variety of reasons-some legitimate, but it's less than some other states require, and more than others. Mind you, this is relatively unstressed testing, with no time limit. Of course, it's "stressful" because it's a test, but much less so if you do that kind of thing for fun anyway......:lol:

I'm told that there are cops who couldn't do this, but I find it hard to fathom.....


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## Drac (Nov 25, 2008)

elder999 said:


> I'm told that there are cops who couldn't do this, but I find it hard to fathom.....


 
I believe it..You should see some of the officers I shoot with..


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## HM2PAC (Nov 25, 2008)

I qualified repeatedly while on active duty. 
I still carry the same type of pistol, or a variant of it. (1911 or USP)



> *I don't carry a gun, because it makes me feel like a man. I carry a gun because real men know how to take care of themselves, and the ones they love, and do so without apology!*



There have been many times that carrying was a nuisance, but the 2 little kids in the backseat deserve me being uncomfortable fora few hours while they see a movie, or have a dinner in a restaurant.

There have been a couple of times that having a firearm on my hip or in my hand have deterred a confrontation. I will never regret being armed.


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## KenpoTex (Nov 25, 2008)

Good stuff, Farnam is the man...I'd like to hit one of his classes one of these days.


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## Deaf Smith (Nov 25, 2008)

JBrainard said:


> Question: Is it too easy to get a concealed weapons permit? From what I've seen and heard, it is.


 
No, it is not. 

Brainard,

Here in Texas the rate of having CCW licenses revolked is way way below 1 percent. In percentage, far more people get their drivers license revolked than CCW permits.

Here is the conviction rates for CHL (concealed handgun license) holders for 2002 on to 2006.

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/chl/convrates.htm

Once you see them you will see CHL holders are far far more law abiding and I would say responsible, than the 'average' citizen.

And then there is Vermont! Did you know you can carry a handgun, concealed or unconcealed, in Vermont and Alaska. NO PERMENT REQUIRED! Have you been hearing of all the deaths in the street in those two states? No? Neither have I. So it kind of makes me wonder, do we really need a 'license' at all?

So, no it's not to easy to get. In fact, maybe not easy enough.

Deaf


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## rhn_kenpo (Nov 25, 2008)

In CA, the whole discussion is academic because it is virtually impossible to get a concealed carry permit.  Or more specifically, it is virtually impossible for the average non-criminal citizen to get a permit.  If it were legal, I'd certainly carry a gun sometimes.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Nov 26, 2008)

In Michigan it is 8 hours of training and a clear criminal history check.  Personally I would like to see qutie a few more training hours logged.


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## Drac (Nov 26, 2008)

KenpoTex said:


> Good stuff, Farnam is the man...I'd like to hit one of his classes one of these days.


 
I hear ya.. *Massad Ayoob* did a 2 day class up here and I tried to get in...Spaces had sold out 1 day after the announcement...


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## Blindside (Nov 26, 2008)

The right to keep and  bear arms is written into the Washington state constitution, as a result all you need is a resident and not have a criminal history.  No class required or range competence test.


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## Frostbite (Nov 26, 2008)

rhn_kenpo said:


> In CA, the whole discussion is academic because it is virtually impossible to get a concealed carry permit.  Or more specifically, it is virtually impossible for the average non-criminal citizen to get a permit.  If it were legal, I'd certainly carry a gun sometimes.



Yeah, we get a pretty raw deal here.  I actually moved here from Washington, which as Blindside pointed out, is California's polar opposite on this issue.  The worse crime gets around here and the slower the police response, the more I'm starting to think it's a deal breaker for me.  Too bad it's such a crappy time to move.


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## JBrainard (Nov 26, 2008)

Deaf, thank you for the good information.



Deaf Smith said:


> So, no it's not to easy to get. In fact, maybe not easy enough.


 
In order to follow your argument to it's logical conclusion, I need to ask you a question: In what you would consider a perfect world, what do you think that the requirements for getting a consealed weapons permit should be?


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## Deaf Smith (Nov 26, 2008)

JBrainard said:


> Deaf, thank you for the good information.
> 
> In order to follow your argument to it's logical conclusion, I need to ask you a question: In what you would consider a perfect world, what do you think that the requirements for getting a consealed weapons permit should be?


 
No criminal record (felony.) Not a drug abuser. Not insane. Not 'mentaly challenged', that is retarded to use the non-PC term. No dishonorable discharge. Over 30 years old (hahaha , ok kidding but never trust anyone below 30 cause they are idiots.) I'd say normally if they can own a gun (18 years old) then they can carry it. 

Now as for felons. If one is convicted of a VIOLENT felony, then that's it. They have lost their rights. If they have been convicted of a non-violent felony, then if they complete their term and have 5 years clean record, then ALL rights are restored. ALL of them!

Now here in Texas, we hair split. Class 'A' and class 'B' misdemeanor can keep you from getting a CHL for several years. And once you get your CHL, if you even cuss in public (a Class 'C' misdemeanor), then you can have it suspened for 30 days.

You can get a class 'B' misdemeanor for dumping garbage on the road or bouncing check.

Anyway, even though I teach CHL classes here in Texas, I'd prefer we had Vermont Carry. You only lose your rights to carry if you do something stupid like wave the gun around or threaten people with it.

Deaf


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## Andy Moynihan (Nov 26, 2008)

JBrainard said:


> I really liked that... However, and not to be negative or anything, some of those don't apply if the person who's packing is a dumb ***.
> My brother in law just got his concealed weapons permit. He's not a "bad guy," but I really don't feel safe around idiots with guns.
> 
> Question: Is it too easy to get a concealed weapons permit? From what I've seen and heard, it is.


 

An eye opening experience for you it would've been, following my 4 year trek to get mine in MA.


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## Rich Parsons (Nov 26, 2008)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> In Michigan it is 8 hours of training and a clear criminal history check. Personally I would like to see qutie a few more training hours logged.


 

While I agree with the training hours, I am glad the state of michigan switched from a shall prove state to shall issue state. Meaning that instead of proving why you need one, the state has to prove why you do not. of course I have over simplified the law and write up to my limited understanding.


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## KenpoTex (Nov 26, 2008)

Rich Parsons said:


> While I agree with the training hours, I am glad the state of michigan switched from a shall prove state to shall issue state. Meaning that instead of proving why you need one, the state has to prove why you do not. of course I have over simplified the law and write up to my limited understanding.


 
You pretty much nailed it.  The common terms are "may issue" and "shall issue."

In a "may issue" state (Cali, NY, etc.) you have to give a "good enough" reason as to why you need one.  In many places this means you won't get one unless you're rich and/or politically connected.  "For self-defense" is not a good enough reason most of the time...unless you're a liberal anti-gun politician (*cough*Feinstein*cough*)
In "shall issue" states, as long as you meet the requirements (no criminal background, etc.) they must issue you the permit.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Nov 27, 2008)

Rich Parsons said:


> While I agree with the training hours, I am glad the state of michigan switched from a shall prove state to shall issue state. Meaning that instead of proving why you need one, the state has to prove why you do not. of course I have over simplified the law and write up to my limited understanding.




*Hey Rich I am exactly with you there.*  I agree that the State should have to prove why you do not deserve one as like you or KenpoTex I am all for a persons right to bear arms.  However I would like people to have to train more and qualify even if it is at a rudimentary level.  I am also not against a short waiting period.  Still in the end I am all for people's rights to bear arms and protect themselves and their families. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





I think it is a shame that there are a number of states where you cannot.


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## Rich Parsons (Nov 27, 2008)

KenpoTex said:


> You pretty much nailed it. The common terms are "may issue" and "shall issue."
> 
> In a "may issue" state (Cali, NY, etc.) you have to give a "good enough" reason as to why you need one. In many places this means you won't get one unless you're rich and/or politically connected. "For self-defense" is not a good enough reason most of the time...unless you're a liberal anti-gun politician (*cough*Feinstein*cough*)
> In "shall issue" states, as long as you meet the requirements (no criminal background, etc.) they must issue you the permit.


 
My Grandfather was able to get one in the state of NY.

There were two major factors in his favor.

He had AB- blood and had been a donor for years and on call, and had helped save some lives.

He fell from a tree (* Tree Surgeon *) and was paralyzed. He had the back history of being a person they could call at 3 AM to drive an hour to a hospital to give blood or be part of a transfusion. They say they issued it for his safety of being in a wheel chair or on his tractor when he was roaming the property. But, I believe his conenctions had as much to do with it.


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## elder999 (Nov 27, 2008)

Rich Parsons said:


> My Grandfather was able to get one in the state of NY.
> 
> There were two major factors in his favor.
> 
> ...


 

Connections have a lot to do with it, as well as "security concerns,"  like if you're a diamond merchant or something of that nature, but the biggest factor is geography-the further north one goes in NY, the easier a CCW is to obtain-at least, that's the way it was when I lived there.


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## Rich Parsons (Nov 27, 2008)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> *Hey Rich I am exactly with you there.* I agree that the State should have to prove why you do not deserve one as like you or KenpoTex I am all for a persons right to bear arms. However I would like people to have to train more and qualify even if it is at a rudimentary level. I am also not against a short waiting period. Still in the end I am all for people's rights to bear arms and protect themselves and their families.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Brian as to your last sentence. I agree a lot. I was actually online with a friend on the phone asking about reciprocity from the State of Mi.  Link here:  http://www.michigan.gov/ag/0,1607,7-164-17334_17362_22672-60639--,00.html


Those that recognize Michigan issued permits are: 

Alabama 
Alaska 
Arizona 
Arkansas 
Colorado 
Delaware 
Florida 
Georgia 
Idaho 
Indiana 
Kansas 
Kentucky 
Louisiana 
Mississippi 
Missouri 
Minnesota 
Montana 
Nevada 
New Hampshire 
New Mexico 
North Carolina  
North Dakota 
Ohio 
Oklahoma 
Pennsylvania 
South Carolina 
South Dakota 
Tennessee 
Texas 
Utah 
Vermont (does not require carry permits by residents or non residents) 
Virginia 
Washington 
West Virginia 
Wyoming 


What I found interesting was that 14 states do not have an agreement. 

Those states who do not recognize non resident permits are: 

California 
Connecticut 
Hawaii 
Illinois 
Iowa 
Maine 
Maryland 
Massachusetts 
Nebraska 
New Jersey 
New York 
Oregon 
Rhode Island 
Wisconsin 

[I also checked Missouri for the guy on the phone and found almost the same lists. 
Link here: http://ago.mo.gov/Concealed-Weapons/Concealed-Carry-Reciprocity-Missouri.htm

They have a nice chart that shows which states as well as the lists. They also call out states that do not have any issue policy at all.



> *States that do not issue endorsements to carry a concealed weapon*
> 
> 
> Illinois
> ...


​​So it might pay to ask for a temporary permit.​​​​​​


> Federal law expressly provides that persons may carry a firearm in their vehicles while traveling through another state provided that the possession of the weapon is legal in both the states of origin and destination and the weapon is unloaded and carried in the trunk of the vehicle or a locked container other than the glove box. See 18 U.S.C. 926a




A way to transport a firearm legally accoding to Federal Laws. But note that it must be legal in the state of initiation and the state of destination and the transporting should also be verified to make sure that nothing happens because of a missunderstanding.


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## takezo (Dec 3, 2008)

rhn_kenpo said:


> In CA, the whole discussion is academic because it is virtually impossible to get a concealed carry permit. Or more specifically, it is virtually impossible for the average non-criminal citizen to get a permit. If it were legal, I'd certainly carry a gun sometimes.


 
Not true - just depends if you live in one of those shrinking pockets of resistance that still exist within The People's Republic of California...


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## sjansen (Dec 14, 2008)

I have a concealed carry from Michigan and many of those in the class were not qualified by the instructor. Anyone who did not qualify was welcome to come to the range free of charge and practice until they did. I worked with my wife for about 20 hours until she could qualify. You have to not only hit the target at 7 yards, but also conceal reaload and hit the target again with 80% accuracy.

Remember that the cops are only minutes away when seconds count.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 15, 2008)

Rich Parsons said:


> Brian as to your last sentence. I agree a lot. I was actually online with a friend on the phone asking about reciprocity from the State of Mi.  Link here:  http://www.michigan.gov/ag/0,1607,7-164-17334_17362_22672-60639--,00.html
> 
> 
> Those that recognize Michigan issued permits are:
> ...





Hey Rich,

Absolutely I am with you on knowing how you can legally transport especially because you and I both do quite a bit of traveling.

It is also good that we have reciprocity agreements with so many states.  Quite a few of the places that I regularly travel are in with the reciprocity agreements.  Now if Illinois will just come on board.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 15, 2008)

sjansen said:


> I have a concealed carry from Michigan and many of those in the class were not qualified by the instructor. Anyone who did not qualify was welcome to come to the range free of charge and practice until they did. I worked with my wife for about 20 hours until she could qualify. You have to not only hit the target at 7 yards, but also conceal reaload and hit the target again with 80% accuracy.
> 
> Remember that the cops are only minutes away when seconds count.



Hey Scott,

I am glad that your instructor made sure that everyone qualified.  Still I would say that probably everyone in your class needs further training to become more proficient.  Hitting the target at 7 yards is *pretty easy* and having gone through the same course as you it is a pretty simple course. (ie. nothing special)  Still I think it is great that you and your wife have CPL licenses here in Michigan.  The more of us guarding and protecting each other the better. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  That way we can keep the wolves at bay.


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## sjansen (Dec 20, 2008)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Hey Scott,
> 
> I am glad that your instructor made sure that everyone qualified. Still I would say that probably everyone in your class needs further training to become more proficient. Hitting the target at 7 yards is *pretty easy* and having gone through the same course as you it is a pretty simple course. (ie. nothing special) Still I think it is great that you and your wife have CPL licenses here in Michigan. The more of us guarding and protecting each other the better.
> 
> ...


 
I'm with ya. I still make my wife go to the range and practice monthly during the warmer months. Your gun will only get used on you if you are not comfortable with it and do not have the mindset to use it when needed.


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## David Weatherly (Dec 21, 2008)

I'm 100% on board with the right to carry.  Like others have said, I just wish there were at least some training requirements to do so.  I've seen too many people who had no business having a gun get a permit with no problem.

David


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## Deaf Smith (Dec 21, 2008)

Well we don't have any training required to vote, and don't think voters cannot mess things up with whom they elect.

We don't require any training on free speech, and speech has caused many a fight and war.

We don't require any training to become a parent or to raise kids.

Vermont and Alaska don't require any training to pack guns concealed or unconcealed. Sure havn't herd of people dieing in the streets in those two states.

I suspect the vast majority of those who really want to pack a gun wil do so with the undertanding they will need to seak advice on the law and on gun handling. Very few are just going to pick up a gun carry with without the realization it's a deadly weapon and they will have to think before they do something rash.

Deaf


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## searcher (Dec 25, 2008)

I am all for the right to carry and the right of all citizens that are legally able to own a firearm to pursue the right to carry.   I have my CCH and do carry every day.   As an instructor here in KS, we do not issue a passing grade to all that take the CCHL class.   Most pass, but many do not.   Our classes consist of 10 hours of instruction and a range assessment.   I would like to see our state range assessment a little more difficult, but it is what it is.  After they get their certificate of completion, they go through a background check and have a small waiting period before the sate issues their permit.   The one big change I would like to see with CCH is that people have to take additional training after they get their license.   Many a person that get their CCHL shoot a minimum and don't take any extra classes.    Some make me nervous when they come to additional classes and I wonder if they have ever handled a gun, but I am glad they are at least seeking the training.   I, myself, go to additional training classes at a minimum of once every quarter and sometimes once a month.   I am a firm believer that a gun in hand is better than a LE on the phone.

Now I am not bashing LEs or their abilities.   Some LE guys have some decent skills, but most shoot as bad as the poorly trained.    My Wife works at the local couthouse, so I talk to the LE people(HP,SO, PD) daily.   I will tell you, I shoot more in one string then they shoot in one year.    This, IMO, is pathetic at best.    


And on the original topic, John and Vicki Farnam are good people and great instructors.   One of the local ranges tries to have them up each year for training.

*rant off*


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## Mark L (Dec 26, 2008)

In Mass. a firearms safety class is required from a State Police certified instructor, clear felony record/no convictions punishable by more than two years, then you're at the mercy of the local Chief of Police.  They can pretty much do as they please in issuing licenses, restrictions, and revocations.  Some towns it's just a formality, others it's simply impossible.  I'm waiting for mine now ...


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## Andy Moynihan (Dec 26, 2008)

I remember the pain, Crossin' my fingers for ya.


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## Guardian (Dec 26, 2008)

Vermont and Alaska don't require any training to pack guns concealed or unconcealed. Sure havn't herd of people dieing in the streets in those two states.

To be fair here, those are not big time crime states there either or very populated states for that matter.

Vermont - 2006, 650,000 give or take a couple thousand, heck my city is 1/4 there already with over 100,000

Alaska - 670,000, same here with my city alone.

I don't want everyone armed that's for sure.  I'm getting mine in February along with the wife.  I'll probably only carry it while travelling anyways and that's legal here in Texas anyways with some stipulations to it, but on the bike, it will make the difference for me.


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## KenpoTex (Dec 27, 2008)

searcher said:


> *The one big change I would like to see with CCH is that people have to take additional training after they get their license.* *Many a person that get their CCHL shoot a minimum and don't take any extra classes.*
> Some make me nervous when they come to additional classes and I wonder if they have ever handled a gun, but I am glad they are at least seeking the training. I, myself, go to additional training classes at a minimum of once every quarter and sometimes once a month. I am a firm believer that a gun in hand is better than a LE on the phone.
> 
> Now I am not bashing LEs or their abilities. Some LE guys have some decent skills, *but most shoot as bad as the poorly trained.*


 
I agree that most CCW/CHL/whatever holders are not as prepared as they should be.  I also agree that most cops aren't as prepared as they should be (and yet...never mind ).  

I do not however believe that CCW holders should be _required_ to take any training.  Mostly, this is due to the fact that I am against any regulation or restriction that can lead to more regulation or restriction (which is most of it ).


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## Deaf Smith (Dec 27, 2008)

Guardian said:


> I don't want everyone armed that's for sure.


 
Ah, but who gets to decide who is armed and who is not? See that's the rub. We already exclude drug addicts, felons, psychos, aliens, and the like (even in Vermont and Alaska.) So what is left and who decides who can or cannot. Obama says you have a 2nd amendment right unless you live in a 'high crime area'. Then you don't have that right. So does he decide? What kind of criteria? Need?

See it gets pretty sticky as more and more "don't want them to be armed" are added to the list.

And what's more, just because a law says only so-and-so can be armed does not mean only so-and-so are NOT armed.

Deaf


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## Hudson69 (Dec 11, 2009)

JBrainard said:


> I really liked that... However, and not to be negative or anything, some of those don't apply if the person who's packing is a dumb ***.
> My brother in law just got his concealed weapons permit. He's not a "bad guy," but I really don't feel safe around idiots with guns.
> 
> Question: Is it too easy to get a concealed weapons permit? From what I've seen and heard, it is.


 
Long before I joined the military and even longer before I joined Law Enforcement I had a gun pulled on me. The person doing it was one of those people who fit "idiot" to a "T." He didn't even have a permit, he wasn't 21 yet and couldn't get one. He was doing it because we were having a disagrement and, while I never really felt like he was going to shoot, I didn't like being on the business end of a loaded(?) weapon was ........more than a little worrisome.

He later got kicked out of the Air Force (Security Forces) for possessing hate literature (I think) and he became more and more out of control afterward, when he came back to Utah. I was AF Security Forces as well but joined after him and ended up in Utah but left to pursue civillian law enforcement work in Colorado so didn't run into him for another 7-8 years.

As an LEO I always carry an approved and qualified on firearm. Sometimes this is a snubnosed wheelgun sometimes it is a skinny little single stack 9 but when I go out of state it is usually the big, double stack 9 (15+1 fast moving ways to exit/end a hostile situation I was once told).

Anyway (to make a short story really long) I ran into AKA "Derf" at a mutual friends house I was visiting. He had gotten heavier and was now a security guard and, I was later told, more of a drinker. He had no clue what I had done and he brought up the military right away. Since I was still a Reserve member I told him "Yes, I am still in the Air Force." and left it at that, I never try not to advertise that I am LE, safer I think.

I was not about to bring up him sticking a gun in my face over 10 years ago but didn't want to stick around and talk to this guy anymore. Now I don't know if my attempting to leave spun him up but suddenly he was trying to get me to stay and he was being beligerant and was actually trying to grab my shoulder to keep me there.

I was trying really hard just to slip away but Derf was having none of that so at one point I simply pushed past him and tried to make my getaway (I really wish I had a ninja smoke pellet right then, no lie). When I did that he kind of came unglued and began calling me names, shouting really and saying I could leave when he wanted me to leave.

I was about two paces away and was pushing on the screen door to make it outside but knowing that Derf liked guns and had some training in their use I was watching his hands. As I was saying a last goodbye his hands dropped to the but of a Beretta 92FS, 9mm; I know this gun intimately since it is also known as the M9, the standard handgun used by the military and one I carried and carry still off and on for almost 16 years (now).

At the time I just recognized the movements of someone going to gun so I responded as I felt necessary; I wasn't far enough to safely make it outside and go for a run so I went for my gun since it wasn't doing me any good in its holster at the moment.

This isn't a speed issue but I think because I was almost waiting for this to happen and because he was taking his time, not expecting me to be armed, I beat him to the draw; this is the closest I have ever come to shooting someone dead on or off duty.

When I drew I yelled "Stop!" and moved a little. I think Derf was a startled by the yell and the appearence of an equal threat, now directed at his chest less than four feet away. His response was "WTF", a pause and then he started reaching for his gun again.... Thinking back now I dont think he really realized that I was armed as well.

I did then what I still feel was a safe move on my part; as time slowed down I dipped the barrel down and shot a snap kick into his groin. This ended everything then because he went down, I holstered my gun and was able to wrangle a set of handcuffs onto him. Two local PD units arrived as did a supervisor (Sergeant) when I called 911 for an "Officer (off-duty) needs assistance." He got booked, I made a statement and everybody was happy, even the mutual friend who said he was tired of Derf's bigotry, loudness and constant threats.

So I feel I am in synch with the start of the thread and at the same time agree with JBrainard; just because it is a right does not mean you are the right person. Doesn't mean we can do no less to support everyone under the law.

Sorry to drag on, just my .02.


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## Gaius Julius Caesar (Jan 7, 2010)

KenpoTex said:


> You pretty much nailed it. The common terms are "may issue" and "shall issue."
> 
> In a "may issue" state (Cali, NY, etc.) you have to give a "good enough" reason as to why you need one. In many places this means you won't get one unless you're rich and/or politically connected. "For self-defense" is not a good enough reason most of the time...unless you're a liberal anti-gun politician (*cough*Feinstein*cough*)
> In "shall issue" states, as long as you meet the requirements (no criminal background, etc.) they must issue you the permit.


 
 You know I am a bit surprised their has not been actual armed conflict over this, as it shows that many States are basically doing the Middle Ages thing of only letting nobility carry weapons and the rest of us Peasents can just pray thing. That is what you have when only the rich, the connected or the Goverment is allowed to carry weapons.

 They ever pull that crap in Va. I'd go to war over it.


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