# RETURN: of the King, or the Jedi?



## zDom (Oct 29, 2006)

A recent thread has been discussing the Lord of the Rings and Middle Earth.

It reminded me of a scene from Clerks II in which Randal Graves busts on a Lord of the Rings fan:

*"All right look, there's only one return, okay, and it ain't "of the King," it's "of the Jedi."*

Well, I've got to admit: I am a double geek (geek squared?) because I really dig BOTH "universes." Both are very dear to my heart.

(zDom = sentimental nerd )

So, my question for discussion is:

Which saga, which universe, do you like better?

Not comparing the movies, just comparing the entire scope, the entire "Middle Earth" universe (Silmarillion, The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings, Unfinished Stories) with the entire scope of the Star Wars universe (all six movies, all the books)?

and why?

Or, alternately phrase the question, if you had to pick just one or the other, which would it be and why?


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## exile (Oct 29, 2006)

zDom said:


> Which saga, which universe, do you like better?
> 
> Not comparing the movies, just comparing the entire scope, the entire "Middle Earth" universe (Silmarillion, The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings, Unfinished Stories) with the entire scope of the Star Wars universe (all six movies, all the books)?
> 
> ...



Now, instead of going to bed and falling asleep like a reasonable person should be doing, I'm going to lie there for a couple of hours or so and try to decide which one, and why, and how to articulate it best...

This is what I get for having `just one last look' at the new threads on MT before turning in! :wink1:

Will try to have an answer later in the morning... probably will fall asleep over my keyboard before I manage to finish the post, though.


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## Makalakumu (Oct 29, 2006)

zDom said:


> A recent thread has been discussing the Lord of the Rings and Middle Earth.
> 
> It reminded me of a scene from Clerks II in which Randal Graves busts on a Lord of the Rings fan:
> 
> ...


 
Geek Squared?  I got you beat.  I would have added Randland and the WOT universe.  Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time rocks!

Geek Cubed!

Anyway, if I had to pick one, I'd go with LoTR.  This universe is so deep linguisticly, drawing on so many literary traditions, and intertwining so many different mythologies that the Star Wars universe really doesn't even approach it.  Sure, the writers of Star Wars attempt it, but it comes off as being very superficial.

Tokien makes connections using single words that would absolutely blow your mind!


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## SFC JeffJ (Oct 29, 2006)

I'd say Middle Earth is a much more realized and complete "universe" but the Star Wars one is more fun.

Both great, just different.

Jeff


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 29, 2006)

I really cannot pick one over the other.  They are both great!


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## Bigshadow (Oct 29, 2006)

OH the choices!  I cannot pick!  LOTR is an very cool world and so is Star Wars.  I cannot pick, they both are cool!


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## bydand (Oct 29, 2006)

If we HAD to pick one, I would lean toward Star Wars.  Before anybody says anything about universe development and the pure writing aspect of the two.  Based upon everything that is out there for us to evaluate between these two, it boils down to Star Wars having hotter looking women in their movies.  OK that may be a totally superficial and sexist thing to base a dicision on, but I'm standing  by it.  Lets see: Golum in his loincloth, or Princess Leah in her "jaba" outfit?  Pademe in that White jumpsuit...  oh I could go on; but I will not.  I have dug a hole big enough for myself this morning.


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## SFC JeffJ (Oct 29, 2006)

bydand said:


> If we HAD to pick one, I would lean toward Star Wars.  Before anybody says anything about universe development and the pure writing aspect of the two.  Based upon everything that is out there for us to evaluate between these two, it boils down to Star Wars having hotter looking women in their movies.  OK that may be a totally superficial and sexist thing to base a dicision on, but I'm standing  by it.  Lets see: Golum in his loincloth, or Princess Leah in her "jaba" outfit?  Pademe in that White jumpsuit...  oh I could go on; but I will not.  I have dug a hole big enough for myself this morning.


It's hard to argue with his logic!


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## Bigshadow (Oct 29, 2006)

bydand said:


> If we HAD to pick one, I would lean toward Star Wars.  Before anybody says anything about universe development and the pure writing aspect of the two.  Based upon everything that is out there for us to evaluate between these two, it boils down to Star Wars having hotter looking women in their movies.  OK that may be a totally superficial and sexist thing to base a dicision on, but I'm standing  by it.  Lets see: Golum in his loincloth, or Princess Leah in her "jaba" outfit?  Pademe in that White jumpsuit...  oh I could go on; but I will not.  I have dug a hole big enough for myself this morning.



I don't know, there are those elven women.  Plus they have magic to keep things spiced up a bit! :rofl:


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## Makalakumu (Oct 29, 2006)

bydand said:


> If we HAD to pick one, I would lean toward Star Wars. Before anybody says anything about universe development and the pure writing aspect of the two. Based upon everything that is out there for us to evaluate between these two, it boils down to Star Wars having hotter looking women in their movies. OK that may be a totally superficial and sexist thing to base a dicision on, but I'm standing by it. Lets see: Golum in his loincloth, or Princess Leah in her "jaba" outfit? Pademe in that White jumpsuit... oh I could go on; but I will not. I have dug a hole big enough for myself this morning.


 
Arwen, Galadrial, Eowyn, etc...

Oh Aragorn, Arwen would have never known...

When I was 13 and I probably would have picked Star Wars too, based on the above criteria!


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## bydand (Oct 29, 2006)

Oh well, elvin women are nice, but...  Yeah I would have picked Star Wars at 13 as well, but it wasn't out quite yet.  But for now, I'll stick to it. Maybe (God forbid) once I grow up my mind will change.


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## Bigshadow (Oct 29, 2006)

I'm never gonna grow up!


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## Lisa (Oct 29, 2006)

bydand said:


> If we HAD to pick one, I would lean toward Star Wars.  Before anybody says anything about universe development and the pure writing aspect of the two.  Based upon everything that is out there for us to evaluate between these two, it boils down to Star Wars having hotter looking women in their movies.  OK that may be a totally superficial and sexist thing to base a dicision on, but I'm standing  by it.  Lets see: Golum in his loincloth, or Princess Leah in her "jaba" outfit?  Pademe in that White jumpsuit...  oh I could go on; but I will not.  I have dug a hole big enough for myself this morning.



Oh bydand that truly is a bit of a sexist thing to say but it goes both ways...

Furry big footed short men compared to light sabre yeilding men with kick *** bodies.  Men that quite possible have showered in the recent millenium compare to those who have ran cross country without a bath in who knows how long (ick!)...short dwarf men and pansy elves compare to...well you all get my drift now don't you?


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## mrhnau (Oct 29, 2006)

JeffJ said:


> I'd say Middle Earth is a much more realized and complete "universe" but the Star Wars one is more fun.
> 
> Both great, just different.
> 
> Jeff



Well, Middle Earth was introduced first in written form, while Star Wars came first as visual.

Middle Earth spawned a totally new (well, mostly new) genre, however, the main characters were not included in the largest body of work (books, games, movies, etc). With Star Wars, it was not totally new (space movies had been done before) but the following body of work (the books, comics, etc) tended to keep those main characters in focus. You keep a better feel of participants. The visual feel of the movies was fairly revolutionary, so it helped introduce better movies in the future I think.

both are fantastic, but fairly different... If I -had- to choose, I'd probably say Star Wars.


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## exile (Oct 29, 2006)

Thought about it quite a bit and finally decided on Tolkien's world. It's hard to explain why, but it has something to do with the sense that Tolkien creates almost better than anyone---that there is this magical realm on the other side of the the bubble whose outward surface appears to us as the just the ordinary sequence of everyday events. For JRRT the beauty of the natural world itself reflects the presence of a very deep kind of magic, and it's that beauty that gives the Elves their special quality and their _inherent_ magic. 


The Valar have something to do with this too... very hard to explain (for those of you who have ever followed the Marvel comics multiverse, the Valar add a similar dimension to the conflicts in LoTR and the _Silmarillion_ that the Living Tribunal adds to the Marvel multiverse, for me anyway...) The sense that the immortal guardians are the world are engaged, even from a great distance, with the struggles of (often _very_) ordinary mortals adds a kind of grandeur to Tolkien's world that I don't quite find in Lucas'.


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## Mcura (Oct 29, 2006)

On a personal reason, I have yet to be dissappointed when I read through the Lord of the Rings trilogy, or see the movies.  Not once.  I still walk away from the experience with a grin on my face and a sense of inspiration in my heart.

However, the Star Wars universe in the last five years has kind of let me down.  For example, one word has essentially stripped out the sheer power and wonder of a key plot element of Star Wars and the universe it comprises.

Midichlorians.

Uuuuuuugh ... blech, blech, blech.  Unclean, unclean.


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## Blindside (Oct 29, 2006)

LoTR hands down, the movies were a good adaption of amazing books.  Star Wars was two good movies (maybe three) that after Empire pandered to children and the book expansion while prolific is mediocre.

Lamont


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## MA-Caver (Oct 29, 2006)

If I had to choose one or the other I'm pretty sure I'd choose LOTR. While the Star Wars saga was exciting and full of fun technology and daring adventures and all of that... For me LOTR was a richer more "human" adventure/saga. Sure there were dwarves and elves and then the baddies orcs and goblins and witchkings and all that but the hero characters were (IMO) more closer to human. Perhaps I mean that they were untainted by technological surroundings. They had to struggle to get to their goals without the aid of hyperdrives, land speeders/bikes, light sabers and droids. 
They were fighting pure evil (Sauron) instead of humans who were just overall very bad men. They trudged on for days/weeks and months on their own power over harsh and difficult terrian and so forth. 
Reading the books (and eventually watching the films) you get a truer sense of their caring for each other as individuals and their willingness to sacrifice for each other to defeat the evil which has come to threaten their homes and their way of life. 
The endearing friendship of Samwise and Frodo can be clearly felt while reading the books (Tolkien was a master story-teller). 
I liked the Star Wars universe but only from Episode 4 to 6 ... don't get me started on the prequels... read earlier posts/threads if you want my take on them. 
:idunno: but that's just me. :asian:



			
				 mcura said:
			
		

> On a personal reason, I have yet to be dissappointed when I read through the Lord of the Rings trilogy, or see the movies. Not once. I still walk away from the experience with a grin on my face and a sense of inspiration in my heart.
> 
> However, the Star Wars universe in the last five years has kind of let me down. For example, one word has essentially stripped out the sheer power and wonder of a key plot element of Star Wars and the universe it comprises.
> 
> ...


I'm with you mcura. The force was explained in episodes 4-6 as a more spiritual thing than a symbionic pairing of microscopic beings parasiting in living hosts. 
That took away the mysticism of the Force and the nobility of the Jedis. It stripped away the "concept" of the living soul. 
Yoda explained it clearly to Luke in ESB: Life creates it, luminious beings are we, not this crude matter. Feel the force around you, yes in the in the trees, the rocks, yes, even between the land and the ship." 
Kenobi also explained it to Luke in ANH: "The Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us, penetrates us, it binds the galaxy together." 
Those explianations clearly spoke to me more than Quai-Gon's description to Anakin about tiny creatures living within our cells. I damned near walked out of the theater first time I saw TPM and that scene. Then the idea that Anakin had no biological father. I mean c'mon, just admit she got drunk and was date raped. Don't try to pass off a immaculate conception here!


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## FearlessFreep (Oct 29, 2006)

I'm more inclined to believe that the Star Wars universe had indoor plumbing than the Middle-Earth universe, so if I had to choose one to *live* in....


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## Tames D (Oct 29, 2006)

Hmmm... Star Wars I guess.


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## Tames D (Oct 29, 2006)

QUI-GON said:


> Hmmm... Star Wars I guess.


Especially that one character, what was his name? oh yeah Qui-Gon. lol.


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## Lisa (Oct 29, 2006)

QUI-GON said:


> Especially that one character, what was his name? oh yeah Qui-Gon. lol.



I am sensing you have a special affiliation with this character...hhhmmmm what could it be?


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## Kacey (Oct 29, 2006)

Lord of the Rings - no question!  I always wanted to be an elf!

Actually, I just find it easier to get lost in LoTR.  Star Wars is good, no question - but I get lost in books much more easily than in movies, and there is no question in my mind that LoTR is much better written.


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## exile (Oct 29, 2006)

Kacey said:


> Lord of the Rings - no question!  I always wanted to be an elf!
> 
> Actually, I just find it easier to get lost in LoTR.  Star Wars is good, no question - but I get lost in books much more easily than in movies, and there is no question in my mind that LoTR is much better written.



Yes, _this_ is the heart of Tolkien's greatness... you can start anywhere in LoTR and suddenly `come to', six hours later, in shock that it's night now and you've been sitting there all that time, oblivious. Very few writiers can do that. It's happened to me plenty of times... `Lost in a book' is exactly the right idea. Very few authors can do that the way JRRT can... with Lucas, it's much more of an adrenaline rush--but the sense of the mysteriousness of the the world, magical things just out of sight... no (at least for me).


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## Blotan Hunka (Oct 29, 2006)

LOTR just seemed "real" to me. Moreso than Star Wars..which I loved dont get me worng..but I read and internalized Tolkien SW was just eye candy.


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## dubljay (Oct 29, 2006)

I never could get in the the LOTR books, and as a result I didn't have much of an apprecation for the movies.  As far as Star Wars, I got sucked into that when they re-released the originals in theater.  Episodes IV V and VI were the best.  The subsequent newer ones didnt impress me a whole lot, in fact I was quite dissapointed in some regards.  I did get into the star wars book universe, having read many books, the ones by Timothy Zahn were by far the best.


So if I _had  _to choose one or the other it would be Star Wars.


(though given a third option I would say Orson Scott Card's Ender's Series and it's parallel Bean series.  However there has yet to be a movie)


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## MA-Caver (Oct 29, 2006)

exile said:


> Yes, _this_ is the heart of Tolkien's greatness... *you can start anywhere *in LoTR and suddenly `come to', six hours later, in shock that it's night now and you've been sitting there all that time, oblivious.


You mean if I start at the very last page (omitting the indexes) of the Return Of the King ... I'd be lost for six hours??? Dang... probably read one letter at a time from each word ... taking a 10 minute break from each letter I reckon. (hee hee  )

Yeah, I used to make reading the entire trilogy (including "The Hobbit") an annual affair, but since the movies it's a lot better sitting for 9 hours instead of 9 days to go through the story... but then again... dispite the expanded edition the movies still left out a HELLVA lot of stuff that went on "in-between pages". Still for a film translation of such a great (and long) literary work... it's probably one of the best. 

Funny how you can actually see the love Jackson had for the books through his work of LOTR...But he said he was inspired to be a film maker from King Kong (RCO's 1933 original) but it doesn't shine through... the FX oh my hell yes... but the story just flat out... flattened out. Sigh... mebbe he should've taken a longer break. 
Still Jackson still fully deserves the honors he got for his LOTR's films. I'm excited to see his translation of "The Hobbit"


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## exile (Oct 29, 2006)

MA-Caver said:


> You mean if I start at the very last page (omitting the indexes) of the Return Of the King ... I'd be lost for six hours??? Dang... probably read one letter at a time from each word ... taking a 10 minute break from each letter I reckon. (hee hee  )



Sure!---as long as you read backwards, mentally computed all the words forward back into sentences, and  kept going backward-then-forward in that same way... hell, that would only get you three or four pages an hour... are you _sure_ you wouldn't rather just start somewhere and read forwards toward the end? 



MA-Caver said:


> Yeah, I used to make reading the entire trilogy (including "The Hobbit") an annual affair, but since the movies it's a lot better sitting for 9 hours instead of 9 days to go through the story... but then again... dispite the expanded edition the movies still left out a HELLVA lot of stuff that went on "in-between pages". Still for a film translation of such a great (and long) literary work... it's probably one of the best.



No question, one of the greatest film epics ever... hard to imagine anything better coming along. And the cinematography---that long line of beacons sending the Minas Tirith's urgent plea for help to the Rohirrim, against Denethor's wishes.... has to be one of the greates scene-sequences ever conceived.

But I think Tolkien's evocative powers of description trump even Jackson's inspired camera work. I'm always on the verge of starting the trilogy again---only thing which keeps me from it is knowing that it'll take me a week or so to shake the hangover of melancholy that always hits me (and that a bunch of other people have also experienced who posted to the Tolkien thread during the past week). Still, every couple of years the temptation proves too great...



MA-Caver said:


> Funny how you can actually see the love Jackson had for the books through his work of LOTR...But he said he was inspired to be a film maker from King Kong (RCO's 1933 original) but it doesn't shine through... the FX oh my hell yes... but the story just flat out... flattened out. Sigh... mebbe he should've taken a longer break.
> Still Jackson still fully deserves the honors he got for his LOTR's films. I'm excited to see his translation of "The Hobbit"



He's probably going be able to parley the experience he got from LoTR into something really extraordinary now. His problem is the ultra expectations fans of the trilogy are now harboring... gonna be hard to live up to.


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## bushidomartialarts (Oct 30, 2006)

put me down for LOTR.  not because SW sucks or anything, just LOTR is better.

kinda like being the tallest basketball player on the team, though.


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## MA-Caver (Oct 30, 2006)

exile said:


> He's probably going be able to parley the experience he got from LoTR into something really extraordinary now. His problem is the ultra expectations fans of the trilogy are now harboring... gonna be hard to live up to.



This is true, but so long as he (and the rest of the crew/cast) puts their heart into the story as well as they did with LOTR then it should be just as spectacular. 
The Battle of Five Armies should be a great one to see as well as the rendering of Smaug and that mysterious woodsman character the 13 met along the way. 
At least Andy Serkis will be comfortable doing Gollum again and his performance should be just as great as it was for the latter two of the trilogy. 

Yes, my precious, yes. We wants the oscar we does precious!


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## exile (Oct 30, 2006)

MA-Caver said:


> This is true, but so long as he (and the rest of the crew/cast) puts their heart into the story as well as they did with LOTR then it should be just as spectacular.
> The Battle of Five Armies should be a great one to see as well as the rendering of Smaug and that mysterious woodsman character the 13 met along the way.



But I think there are maybe some pitfalls that Jackson may be facing. Compared with LoTR, _The Hobbit_ is really quite a... _lighthearted_ tale, without the kind of epic sadness and stoic resignation that so many people have noted in LoTR. I just hope that Jackson is able to maintain that quality in this movie, because it's important, I think---the storyline of _The Hobbit_ really doesn't have the mythic grandeur of LoTR's narrative, and doesn't want it; it's quite happy being a kind schoolboy lark, and too much _gravitas_ isn't gonna be good for it, I suspect. I do think Jackson is enough of a Tolkien devotee and a careful enough reader to `get' the difference, the trick is what kind of marketing pressure will be driving the adaptation.




MA-Caver said:


> At least Andy Serkis will be comfortable doing Gollum again and his performance should be just as great as it was for the latter two of the trilogy.
> 
> Yes, my precious, yes. We wants the oscar we does precious!



Yeah, I agree completely---it's great that we get more Gollum. And Jackson _could_ well score another Oscar with this one---as long as he handles the difference in tone between the two stories with the necessary deftness, and doesn't give in to the urge to heroify everything...


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## Big Don (Aug 8, 2011)

OK, I'm a little late to the party... I finally watched Return of the King. It should have been called Frodo is a little Beyotch. 20 minutes in I wanted to slap him silly.


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## billc (Aug 8, 2011)

Well, to be practical, Return of the Jedi, because I agree with Cohen the Barbarian of the Terry Pratchett universe, you can't beat good dentistry and soft toilet paper.  Something tells me both might be lacking in middle earth.


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## Archangel M (Aug 8, 2011)

Tolkien far and away for me. Not that SW doesn't have a special place in my heart. The literary depth of Tolkien's work is unmatched. 

If we are talking about movies though....I do have some issues with Jackson's tweaking of the storylines and characters.


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## MaxiMe (Aug 8, 2011)

Dwarves vs Wookies..hmm
I'll take the axe and being dangerous over short distances for a close fight and a Death star for a longer range/lasting effect.


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## Big Don (Aug 9, 2011)

MaxiMe said:


> Dwarves vs Wookies..hmm
> I'll take the axe and being dangerous over short distances for a close fight and a Death star for a longer range/lasting effect.


Lasers and Ion Cannons and X Wings vs Axes, swords and Eagles? Gimme a break...

I'll take the Star Wars universe, the wizards (Jedi/sith/other) actually use magic (the force). There isn't nearly as much of a focus on walking, to steal Kevin Smith's rant... The decision by Lucas to rent his name to everyone with a story idea was brilliant, financially for him and for the universe he created.


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