# Koga ryu in japan?



## Teppan

As i was reading some info on the dojo magazine september 06(here it's in spanish and comes from spain) there's this man who claims to be a 21st soke of the "BAN" family, one of the 53 original families from the koka(koga) region in japan. He said that he is the only soke of ninjutsu in the world and that he belongs to the japan ninja keykyokai assosiation. His name is jinichi kawakami "Sonshi". He also claims that his ancestors eliminated oda nobunaga and wrote the bansenshukai. Ban family like ban-senshukai and his warrior name is sonshi like one of it's volumes. He said that noone can use the name ninjutsu but him  and that some instructors have to changed their arts name because of some prohibition in japan. In the article(interview by juan hombre) he shows his hands and all his knucles seem broken. He said that he killed a tiger with his hands. It's all this true? Anyone?


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## Kreth

Let's just say that Juan Hombre should have one of those labels on his forehead, "Warning: this product may contain nuts"


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## Cryozombie

Teppan said:


> As i was reading some info on the dojo magazine september 06(here it's in spanish and comes from spain) there's this man who claims to be a 21st soke of the "BAN" family, one of the 53 original families from the koka(koga) region in japan. He said that he is the only soke of ninjutsu in the world and that he belongs to the japan ninja keykyokai assosiation. His name is jinichi kawakami "Sonshi". He also claims that his ancestors eliminated oda nobunaga and wrote the bansenshukai. Ban family like ban-senshukai and his warrior name is sonshi like one of it's volumes. He said that noone can use the name ninjutsu but him and that some instructors have to changed their arts name because of some prohibition in japan. In the article(interview by juan hombre) he shows his hands and all his knucles seem broken. He said that he killed a tiger with his hands. It's all this true? Anyone?


 

LOL! That story makes me giggle.


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## Don Roley

A few years ago this guy Juan Hombre was trying to say that he had a ninjutsu teacher in Japan and even showed pictures. It turns out that the guy he had the pictures with was the owner of a ninja theme park and not a teacher of ninjutsu.

This guy Kawakami is not well known in Japan, but not for lack of trying. His claims of killing a tiger with his bare hands and being the head of a tradition of ninjutsu are kind of the least exciting of his claims- all of which have nothing to back them up and fly in the face of reality. Everyone legitimate keeps this nut case at arms length. He is not taken seriously by anyone except the types that accept the idea that the US goverment is controlled by aliens. You can think of a few guys in America that make strange claims and seem nuts, do you think Japan is any different?


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## Teppan

Wow! Thanks for clarifying this confusion in my head. There most be many people reading such article. I did some research on this Juan Hombre and boy if he nuts and his instructor!... is lost...How can they write such articles in magazines. yes there's a theme park with pink, yellow, orange and neon ninjas!!! I bet that this instructor is one of those that walks on lakes with the mitsugumu and claims to know some super secret ninja technique that noone knows but him... Thanks again


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## bydand

Who know, maybe he did kill a tiger with his hands.  I have killed a Bear with my hands... I just happen to have been holding a Marlin .444 in them at the time.  LOL  Wow this guy really is an Almond Joy isn't he, because "sometimes you feel like a nut".


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## Fu_Bag

The US government isn't controlled by aliens?
OK.  Now I'm depressed....  

I had such high hopes for our future technological advancement.


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## Don Roley

Fu_Bag said:


> The US government isn't controlled by aliens?
> OK.  Now I'm depressed....



I think I should clarify. I am not saying that he claims the goverment is controlled by aliens. I am saying that the type of people that seem to take what he says seriously are the types that believe that type of thing.

I mean, killing a tiger with your bare hands..... I would demand some sort of proof. But there are _otaku_ in Japan that make the worst geeks in America look normal.


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## Fu_Bag

I'd demand proof too. I can't even kill a Peep (evil marshmallow chickadee) with my bare hands!! Perhaps next Easter I'll have to become more dastardly........ That is one bizarre story...

If you would be so kind, would you share some of the examples of the Otaku you're talking about? I've seen some pretty geeky people before, especially that one in the mirror that refuses to leave me alone, so I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around more bizarre than that!


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## Eis

Yes, Jinichi Kawakami is real and he is the head of the Koka Ban Family. He and his top student, Yasushi Kiyomoto, carry on Koka and Iga Ninjutsu. The training in Japan is amazing. To date most of the information about them has been in Japanese only. Obviously, if you don't speak or read Japanese you would not have access to this information.........and even if you do understand Japanese you would have to know where to look to find it. The Iga Ueno-Ninjutsu museum and groups of Japanese historians (Ninjutsu study groups) from the history-rich Ninjutsu towns of Koka and Iga back up this claim. Yasushi Kiyomoto teaches in Sagamihara-shi, Japan. See the English website for more information:

http://www.freewebs.com/bankeshinobinodenkensyujyo/


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## Kreth

Wonderful, all the "proof" is on a dead link...


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## Eis

The link is not dead.


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## newtothe dark

Sure was for me.


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## bydand

Eis said:


> The link is not dead.



Might as well be, it contains no useful information and just a few claims.  Claims without backing is just sounds in the wind.


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## bydand

Kreth said:


> Wonderful, all the "proof" is on a dead link...





newtothe dark said:


> Sure was for me.



Worked for me.  Maybe they have secret powers over the internet as well and are blocking non-believers... oh wait that can't be true, I got on.  Well not even a guess then why it didn't work for you guys :idunno:.


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## Kreth

bydand said:


> Worked for me. Maybe they have secret powers over the internet as well and are blocking non-believers... oh wait that can't be true, I got on. Well not even a guess then why it didn't work for you guys :idunno:.


My bad, I was trying a beta of the new Firefox :bs: filter. I turned it off and the site loaded... :idunno:


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## bydand

Kreth said:


> My bad, I was trying a beta of the new Firefox :bs: filter. I turned it off and the site loaded... :idunno:



:lfao:  Love the reason.  :lfao:  

If that filter were standard, half the web would suddenly find themselves with zero hits.


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## Eis

Actually these claims do have substantial backing and I'm sorry they are not just "sounds in the wind." As I stated before they are backed by Japanese historians, the Iga-Ueno Ninjutsu museum, and also the government. It is also well-known among Japanese martial arts Sensei's here that if you want to train in Ninjutsu(authentic/real) there are only two people to go to............Jinichi Kawakami and Yasushi Kiyomoto. Most recently they were featured in "ANA's" magazine "Wingspan." For those of you that don't know "ANA" stands for "All Nippon Airways" and is a major Japanese airline company. "Wingspan" is a magazine given out on each flight in Japan. Quoting from the magazine, "from youth he dedicated himself to ninja ways, with a meatless diet and intense physical training." "Kawakami is deemed 21st head of the Ban family of the Koka ninja school." "True ninja passed their final secrets to but one individual. Even in ninja families, only one son inherited the full ninja mantle (referring to Kawakami)." This is published in English. It is the September, 2007 issue of Wingspan for ANA. There are several publications mentionining Jinichi Kawakami and Yasushi Kiyomoto. Most are in Japanese. I have trained under Kiyomoto-Sensei for over a year now.........about 99% of the time it's been one-on-one. He has trained in Ninjutsu for practicly his whole life. His body is hardened from training and he can move in ways that most people can't. I trained with quite a few well-respected martial artists in America from various disciplines........nothing has come close to what I have seen in Japan. Kiyomoto-Sensei is well-versed in the military arts and definitely knows his stuff. The class can be extremely rough............you will get hit, you will get bruises, and yes, you might bleed but you will also learn things that you can't learn anywhere else on earth.


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## Cryozombie

Thats funny, cuz students in Japan who speak and read fluently like our Absent friend Don Roley worked very hard to verify information about the existence and validity of these groups, only to hit falsehoods, lies and dead ends.  So I'm sorry to say hiding behind the "Well you wouldnt know about it because its all in Japanese" defense, is 

:bs:


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## Eis

I don't need to prove anything. This is well-known in Japan. Only recently has some of it been made public so that the rest of the world can know about it. Maybe your "Japanese literate" friend doesn't know where to look or who to talk to.


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## Cryozombie

Eis said:


> I don't need to prove anything. This is well-known in Japan. Only recently has some of it been made public so that the rest of the world can know about it. Maybe your "Japanese literate" friend doesn't know where to look or who to talk to.


 
You make me giggle kid.  Don isn't my friend, I've never even met him.  What I have done is read his research and conclusions, and if you had any idea whatsoever, you certainly wouldn't claim he was the one who doesnt know where to look or who to talk to.  Perhaps you are just a forum troll who's sitting on the other end of the keyboard wiggling his stick at the reactions he gets to his posts, or Perhaps, like so many others who have been duped, you .  are just afraid to admit that you got tricked.  Hey it's ok, happens to a lot of people... Either way it's not like I care what kind of ******** and nonsense you spout off here, because its a fairly well established fact, even in Japan, that you are wrong... and this BS claim that its been supersecret until now has been used over and over and over and over by so many people that it's more laughable now than ever.


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## Eis

Actually, I'm not a kid and you shouldn't call people you don't know "friends." What I have said is the plain and simple truth. Many Japanese historians/scholars and Japanese martial artists have known about Jinichi Kawakami for a long time. These people have devoted themselves to studying Japanese history...........in particular military history. Most of them back up Jinichi Kawakami's claims. I have seen and trained with some of the ancient weapons at my dojo.................there is a plethora of ancient texts and scrolls in Jinichi Kawakami's posession. You should take a look at his hands while you're at it.................why are they so calloused and his knuckles so huge? They have been conditioned after many years of tough training. Take a look at Kiyomoto-Sensei............it is obvious his body has endured years of harsh physical training as well. It's funny that this information has been obvious to many Japanese interested in this topic...............yet so many foreigners still have no idea about it.


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## Cryozombie

Eis said:


> I have seen and trained with some of the ancient weapons at my dojo..................


 
Mine too.  Does this mean we are an Uber secret ninja clan no one has heard of? LOL!



Eis said:


> there is a plethora of ancient texts and scrolls in Jinichi Kawakami's posession.


 
Yeah?  There are a plethora of ancient texts and scrolls in a lot of Librarys in Japan, does that make them all ninja clans? LOL!



Eis said:


> You should take a look at his hands while you're at it.................why are they so calloused and his knuckles so huge? They have been conditioned after many years of tough training. Take a look at Kiyomoto-Sensei............it is obvious his body has endured years of harsh physical training as well.


 
Sounds like Mas Oyama too.  Guess that makes him a ninja as well... 

LOL.  Dude... nothing you said means anything.

Tell you what... post the proof here for us.  Let us evaluate it, and then we can know... or... does that violate some secret tenet and you cant do it...

:lfao::lfao::lfao:


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## kaizasosei

when i was i kid, i accepted everything i found as some kind of truth.  nowadays, i still am on the lookout for good teachings and truths of all kinds.
however, the difference is that now i am able to see for myself the nature of someones ma.  i have come to my own conclusions about what is good or bad, vulgar or refined, and i try to judge everyone according to who they are. 
  basically, i don't think i can easily be fooled.  i will accept any truth that someone tells me but i think i can judge skill and experience for myself. 
it hardly makes any difference what someones story is or their history, in reality they are judged by their abilities.


j


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## Logan

*yawn* Where's that "Do not feed the trolls" thingy....


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## Eis

That's a pretty lame rebuttal. Is that the best you can come up with? I gave you a line of information above....an English website even with a Japanese address etc.............go find the "ANA" magazine. Write the Shiga and Iga governmental offices. Write the Iga-Ueno Museum. There is also plenty of information published in Japanese. Here's one article in Japanese from ISBN: 978-4-05-604814-8. Do you know how to do research? Oh, here's a Japanese website for you as well:
http://www.eonet.ne.jp/~bankeshinobi/

By the way, the scrolls are directly related to Ninjutsu. There are also many ancient weapons from both Samurai and practitioners of Shinobi. If you are truly interested in these arts you should be willing to do the reasearch..........if not you shouldn't act like you are an expert at something you know little about.


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## TimoS

Ok, this is getting interesting. Now then, where's my popcorn.... Ah, found it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. I think I'll just sit back and watch how this one goes (like I don't know already)


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## Sukerkin

*Eis*, don't you think you're coming on a little strong for someone who hasn't even got his feet under the table yet?

That is particularly true given the dubious footing of what you are using to give your words some form of legitimacy.

Combine that with a confrontational attitude and an inability to paragraph and it's not surprising that you're feeling yourself to be roughly handled.

If you'll accept some kindly meant advice, ease off a little.  Structuring your argument and posts more clearly would help matters too.

Of course, that pre-supposes that you're actually interested in getting a point across and aren't just a bored troll out for a stroll.  If the latter is the case, then type quickly for maximum 'grin factor' for the inevitable tide of steel and fire will soon be upon you.


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## Eis

What I am saying is backed by stable evidence. My "feet are stable" if that's how you'd like to put it. I have not been confrontational. People on this forum have tried to tear apart somebody they don't even know.............they have no clue about this person or their art (in reference to posts made before I ever spoke). I just tried to put some words of respect in and was attacked rudely for it. I am just stating facts as I know it..............that's all. I mean no disrespect to anyone.


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## Cryozombie

Eis said:


> If you are truly interested in these arts you should be willing to do the reasearch..........if not you shouldn't act like you are an expert at something you know little about.


 
*Wrong.* _YOU_ are trying to prove _our_ research and evidence are wrong.  You don't do so by saying "Hey you dont know what you are talking about... write some guys in japan and ask, do the research yourself!" because we have done the research, from LEGITIMATE sources who all say the Koga line Is *GONE. DONE. DEAD. EXTINCT*.

If YOU want to claim they are wrong, YOU need to present your evidence *HERE*... not tell us to go out and find it.

In other words, kid, Put up or Shut Up.


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## Eis

P.S.

Inability to paragraph? What am I in English School now? You're British English seems pretty ****** to me too. This is "natural" English...........................I hope you are able to translate it.  "Master Blackbelt" that **** makes me laugh. Guess what? In real military arts there were no belts. Belts are only for arts of the recent era. In ancient Japanese Martial Arts the belt system did not exist. It's just a scam nowadays to make money.


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## newtothe dark

Now let the mortal combat begin :jediduel:


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## TimoS

Eis said:


> In real military arts there were no belts



No kidding? Thanks for clearing that up! I'm sure none of us knew that before


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## Eis

Wow, hey calm down now tiger. I didn't mean to ruffle your sensitive feathers. I gave you the information. If you can't go and do your own research based on the information I have given that is your own problem. I just take it as you aren't intelligent enough to find out the truth about what you are claiming to be experts on. The truth is there..........................right in front of your face. Why don't you take a look at it? The research has been done by expert Japanese historians on the subject.................if you have something else to add I would love to hear it.


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## Koryu Rich

Ah different forum same old nonsense! 



Eis said:


> Actually these claims do have substantial backing and I'm sorry they are not just "sounds in the wind." As I stated before they are backed by Japanese historians, the Iga-Ueno Ninjutsu museum, and also the government.


 
Ok which historians and how have these claims been verified?   



Eis said:


> It is also well-known among Japanese martial arts Sensei's here that if you want to train in Ninjutsu(authentic/real) there are only two people to go to............Jinichi Kawakami and Yasushi Kiyomoto.


 
Oh riiight! 

Ok what about the classical Ryu that contain Ninjutsu as part of their teachings?

There are still a number of Ryu who&#8217;s legitimacy is beyond reproach which teach ninjutsu as part fo their curriculum.



Eis said:


> Most recently they were featured in "ANA's" magazine "Wingspan." For those of you that don't know "ANA" stands for "All Nippon Airways" and is a major Japanese airline company. "Wingspan" is a magazine given out on each flight in Japan. Quoting from the magazine, "from youth he dedicated himself to ninja ways, with a meatless diet and intense physical training." "Kawakami is deemed 21st head of the Ban family of the Koka ninja school." "True ninja passed their final secrets to but one individual. Even in ninja families, only one son inherited the full ninja mantle (referring to Kawakami)." This is published in English. It is the September, 2007 issue of Wingspan for ANA.


 
And of course a magazine for an airline counts as relevant and legitimate evidence for your claims. 



Eis said:


> There are several publications mentionining Jinichi Kawakami and Yasushi Kiyomoto. Most are in Japanese.


 
Which publications?




Eis said:


> I have trained under Kiyomoto-Sensei for over a year now.........about 99% of the time it's been one-on-one. He has trained in Ninjutsu for practicly his whole life. His body is hardened from training and he can move in ways that most people can't. I trained with quite a few well-respected martial artists in America from various disciplines........nothing has come close to what I have seen in Japan. Kiyomoto-Sensei is well-versed in the military arts and definitely knows his stuff. The class can be extremely rough............you will get hit, you will get bruises, and yes, you might bleed but you will also learn things that you can't learn anywhere else on earth.


 
What other disciplines have you trained in? Under which teachers?

What experience have you got that enables you to give a valid assessment on this gentleman? 

Can you provide some sources please other than those linked to your teacher or your school which will give us some information about your art?

On the site you linked to it mentioned:


Shindenfudo-Ryu Kiho
Takenouchi-Ryu Koroshatemi No Den


Would you mind giving us some information on the above two schools please?



Thank you for your time


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## kaizasosei

many people say they are the only truth...
there could be many reasons for them saying that, depending on who they are.
so what is the truth?  - it does seem that the situation as is would be a conflict in mastyles or conflict of the students themselves. 
so, aside from the simple serenity attained by realizing the objective and subjective as they are, who do you think is the one who is more true? 

once we understand and are able to grasp, even for a moment, those wonderful truths that we all search for like
ninjutsu scrolls, mystical knowledge and superb fighting skill and techniques..etc,..
at the end of the day everyone can be found training or stopping to train. but what cannot be erased or denied is the spirit of the training.  what is the basis of prospering and what is the basis of protection and fighting.-
some will go to museums or buy weapons. some will train with weapons or forge their bodies.  others will aim to develop the mind. still there are those that just run into the woods and start climbing practicing all sorts of moves. such is the case most often. so no disrespect to anyone.  
to each his own.  i think martial arts is also about opportunity and evolution. so teaching is actually a great responsibilty of the teacher to guide.  not only in martial arts but as everything follows the words of the master. to set up the kamae of the student.

as far as ninjutsu goes, there are many people practicing what they call ninjutsu. do you know the main ones?  i have researched many of them already.  i have learned nothing new through this thread.
the truth is the one who buys it.






j


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## JadecloudAlchemist

From what I have gathered from this thread is Eis is saying there is an actual Koga teacher in Japan. From this mist of nowhere does he appear and on top of that IS by his defination the only true Ninja teacher.
Now lays the problem of the claim an airline might put any entertaining story in their magazine in which most people use to blow their nose in which just does not hold weight against a historian with a name who can trace the linerage and some good soild proof that this gentleman is what he claims. I think those who practice the art have seen so many people claim Koga that it just draws a red flag. I think Eis your claims will have a hard time convincing anyone with out some good soild proof.
Please do not take this as bashing or any way but trying to understand why people feel the way they do and maybe reword things so the flames die down-Good luck


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## Eis

As far as what I've been training in before Ninjutsu that I can judge a persons strength/weakness on.............well I studied quite a few martial/military arts.

JuJutsu for about 5years (3years under a statetrooper who was bodyguard to the governor of my state.......he's been a statetrooper for almost 30years now). 

Over 3years experience training in "Systema" a military art from the elite "Spetsnaz" units in Russia. I have had the privelage of meeting and training with Vladimir Vasiliev. 

Other various martial arts - Karate, Brazilian Jujutsu, Kickboxing Etc. 

I have been training with Kiyomoto-Sensei for over a year now in Japan. Yes, he is the real deal. I have studied with many martial arts "masters" and I can definitely state that Kiyomoto-Sensei is legitimate. If you want particular information regarding Koka Ninjutsu training I suggest you contact the "Koka and Iga Ninjutsu" dojo in Japan.


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## Kreth

Some very prominent Japanese historians have just verified my claim as Soke of Onara Ryu. Go check it out. We are the only surviving Koga tradition. Oh yes, and we'll have a very nice article next month in Playboy.


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## Koryu Rich

Eis said:


> JuJutsu for about 5years (3years under a statetrooper who was bodyguard to the governor of my state.......he's been a statetrooper for almost 30years now).


 

  What style of Jujutsu? Who was your teacher?



Eis said:


> Over 3years experience training in "Systema" a military art from the elite "Spetsnaz" units in Russia. I have had the privelage of meeting and training with Vladimir Vasiliev.


 
  It&#8217;s not hard to &#8220;meet&#8221; Vlad  he does enough seminars etc

  Again who was your Systema teacher? My teacher will probably of heard of him.




Eis said:


> I have been training with Kiyomoto-Sensei for over a year now in Japan. Yes, he is the real deal. I have studied with many martial arts "masters" and I can definitely state that Kiyomoto-Sensei is legitimate.


 
    Who are these masters you mention? 




Eis said:


> If you want particular information regarding Koka Ninjutsu training I suggest you contact the "Koka and Iga Ninjutsu" dojo in Japan.


 
  Well you are here so I don&#8217;t see why you can&#8217;t give us some basic information on those schools I asked about?

  Also can you provide us with details of the historians you keep mentioning and how the claims of your school was verified?




Eis said:


> I have been training with Kiyomoto-Sensei for over a year now in Japan



*Mods if Eis is in Japan can you check his IP to verify this please??*


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## Eis

As for people that want "proof"................I haven given it several times in the posts above. I suggest you do your own research. I cannot hold your hand for every little step along the way. There are ignorant people left and right on this forum.................if you want the truth it is posted in the lines above.


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## Koryu Rich

Eis said:


> As for people that want "proof"................I haven given it several times in the posts above. I suggest you do your own research. I cannot hold your hand for every little step along the way. There are ignorant people left and right on this forum.................if you want the truth it is posted in the lines above.


 

Can you please answer a direct question?

You haven&#8217;t given any proof at all. You&#8217;ve insinuated much but proved nothing.

You mention these masters you have trained with yet will  not name them.

You talk about the martial arts you have trained in but haven&#8217;t given any style just used generic terms.

You have used &#8220;Historians&#8221; to back up your claims but seem unable to actually say which historians have managed to verify the claims of your school and how the claims were verified.

I&#8217;m sorry you haven&#8217;t proved anything at all. 

If as you say you have given proof then please show where you have provided the information I have asked for. Information which will go along way to helping your credibility here.

I say again you have yet to prove anything.

Can you please give us some information about the schools I asked about?

Can you give us some sources that are not connected to your school or teachers which will verify what you and your school claims?


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## Eis

Obviously, people have not been listening to what I have said. I don't represent Koka Ninjutsu. You want the name of a master I have trained under (currently still am)...............his name is YASUSHI KIYOMOTO. Before that I trained in Systema under ANDRE BAARSMA (and many others) in Systema. Andre was prominently featured in the "Strikes" video where Mikhail Ryabko literally used him as his punching bag. I also trained under a Sensei in Jujutsu for a number of years who doesn't want his name made public (I can't blame him after the **** I've experienced). I trained in Kickboxing before that and also some Brazilian Jujutsu. I have had the opportunity to meet some exceptional martial artists in my lifetime......................and I have the sense to know if a person can fight when I meet him/her..................or if they can hold their own.


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## Eis

P.S.

My real name is "Danny DiMarzio."


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## Koryu Rich

Eis said:


> Obviously, people have not been listening to what I have said.


 
Well obviously the truth is getting drowned out by all the evasiveness in your posts.



Eis said:


> I don't represent Koka Ninjutsu.


 
I don&#8217;t think anyone took you as the official representative but you do claim to be a student do you not? So you should be able to answer some questions about your style shouldn&#8217;t you?



Eis said:


> Before that I trained in Systema under ANDRE BAARSMA (and many others) in Systema. Andre was prominently featured in the "Strikes" video where Mikhail Ryabko literally used him as his punching bag.


 
Thank you now.



Eis said:


> I also trained under a Sensei in Jujutsu for a number of years who doesn't want his name made public (I can't blame him after the **** I've experienced).


 
What style of Jujutsu? I can appreciate you not wishing to name your teacher if that&#8217;s his wish, especially considering some of your posts, but naming the style you do should not be a problem.



Eis said:


> I trained in Kickboxing before that and also some Brazilian Jujutsu. I have had the opportunity to meet some exceptional martial artists in my lifetime......................and I have the sense to know if a person can fight when I meet him/her..................or if they can hold their own.


 
Great now what about my other questions?

Which Historians have validated this Ninjutsu school that you train in?

How has it been validated?

Can you provide any sources which aren't connected to this Koga school which can backup some of the claims made?

What about the two schools I previously mentioned? Can you give us some information on them?

I&#8217;m sure the Bujinkan folks here will be interested in the Shinden Fudo connection and the Koryu guys and girls will certainly sit up with the mention of Takenouchi-Ryu.


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## Eis

Wow, your a quick little tike aren't you? What exactly do you want to know again? Shindenfudo-ryu..........yes I've trained in it. You seem quite tied up with names........................I suggest you contact the dojo to get your questions answered...................and though I might be familiar with the names your spouting off I don't want to misrepresent anyone. As far as the Japanese Historian/Scholars go..................as I said why don't you write the Shiga and Iga government offices? Send you're questions to the Iga-Ueno Ninjutsu Museum? Most of the information is in Japanese so I hope you are fluent or can get your documents translated.


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## Koryu Rich

Eis said:


> Wow, your a quick little tike aren't you?



Please drop the condescending attitude here. It wont do you any good and will only lessen what little credibility you have.



Eis said:


> What exactly do you want to know again? Shindenfudo-ryu..........yes I've trained in it. You seem quite tied up with names........................I suggest you contact the dojo to get your questions answered...................and though I might be familiar with the names your spouting off I don't want to misrepresent anyone.



If you are worried about misrepresenting your school then why post in the first place? 

I'm not spouting anything off, I have taken the names of those schools from the site you linked to. You are the one who brought them to this "discussion"



Eis said:


> As far as the Japanese Historian/Scholars go..................as I said why don't you write the Shiga and Iga government offices? Send you're questions to the Iga-Ueno Ninjutsu  Museum? Most of the information is in Japanese so I hope you are fluent or can get your documents translated.



Translation wont be a problem for me, I believe I know a few who wouldnt mind doing that, however I don't see why I should. Again you are the one who mentioned these historians so should we not take it that you know who they are?

You are the one who has brought them into this discussion and tried to use them to backup your claims. However you didn't actually do that because you failed to provide the names. I would guess you hoped that by mentioning Japanese historians then that would be enough.

Well I'm sorry it's not.

I take it you know who they are as you're using them as "proof"?


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## Carol

[playnice]Carol Kaur[/playnice]


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## Sukerkin

Eis said:


> P.S.
> 
> Inability to paragraph? What am I in English School now? You're British English seems pretty ****** to me too. This is "natural" English...........................I hope you are able to translate it.


 
Ouch!  No well intentioned deed goes unpunished it seems :lol:.  

Although you are now sadly banned, you may drop in again to read this.  

That being so, then all I do is refer you back to my original post, wherein all I intimated was that proper paragraphing would make it easier for others to understand you.  That was in the (apparently) vain hope that the subject meant enough for you to structure your posts and also your arguments to make your point without aggrivating everyone.

I obviously didn't do a good enough job myself of attaining clarity .

For everyone else, well done for showing more forbearance than I would've done trying to hold an intelligent discourse in which the mind of one side was already made up. Reason and evidence being held as of small regard is one way to get my academic dander up quite quickly .


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## newtothe dark

Was a shame he just didnt want to listen to guys with thousands of posts, he just wanted to fight I guess o well. Good try all you showed great patience going over an old worn out topic.
Next we will see ashida Kim in the airline mags and have to all change styles lol. Be well.


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## George Kohler

Here is some stuff that I found on the net about were he lives. He is from Japan.

First I did a search on Danny's teacher on google and found that not long ago he added an entry in wikipedia on the term "Ninjutsu." I saw the IP address listed on the edit page and it showed 219.207.226.235.

The second thing I did was to see if there was an entry with that IP on E-Budo. I did get one hit, so I copied the e-mail address (the first section before the "@" sign).

The third thing I did was did a search on the username of the e-mail. Google came up with this page. http://www.eslteachersboard.com/cgi-bin/tutors/index.pl?noframes;read=9717

So we know he did live in Yotsukaido, Chiba.

P.S. Danny, I went ahead and changed your username to Danny DiMarzio and removed your fake name "Tom Johnson" and added your real name in the signature box.


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## Kreth

George Kohler said:


> P.S. Danny, I went ahead and changed your username to Danny DiMarzio and removed your fake name "Tom Johnson" and added your real name in the signature box.


That's why he's no longer a member here...


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## George Kohler

George Kohler said:


> P.S. Danny, I went ahead and changed your username to Danny DiMarzio and removed your fake name "Tom Johnson" and added your real name in the signature box.


 
I also changed your profile too.


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## George Kohler

Kreth said:


> That's why he's no longer a member here...


 
I had a feeling that is why he was banned. That's why I wanted to know if he was on E-Budo too.


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## George Kohler

Here is another page. http://www.eslteachersboard.com/cgi-bin/tutors/index.pl?noframes;read=12081


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## TheGooch

Eis said:


> Wow, your a quick little tike aren't you? What exactly do you want to know again? Shindenfudo-ryu..........yes I've trained in it. You seem quite tied up with names........................I suggest you contact the dojo to get your questions answered...................quote]
> 
> They don't have the gonads to do that here, as evidenced by the many posts challenging/questioning any other way outside their own bubble. Most of the posts you read here are from keyboard warriors (they're easy to spot, you can see the same names in every thread).


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## bydand

Wow, didn't take long for you to get bounced!  Didn't look like you had a thing to contribute anyway if your whole whopping 2 posts are any indication.


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## TimoS

bydand said:


> Wow, didn't take long for you to get bounced!  Didn't look like you had a thing to contribute anyway if your whole whopping 2 posts are any indication.



My guess is that it is someone already known to moderators, trying to be clever and re-registering under a different name


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## Koryu Rich

TheGooch said:


> They don't have the gonads to do that here, as evidenced by the many posts challenging/questioning any other way outside their own bubble. Most of the posts you read here are from keyboard warriors (they're easy to spot, you can see the same names in every thread).



 Could you please tell me how enquiring about one of the schools listed on the site he posted represents a lack of fortitude on our part?

  The fact is on that site is one school which looks like its trying to show a connection to a very well known, influential and established koryu. Hence my interest.

  The discussion was taking place here on this forum. He was putting himself up to discuss his art but somehow couldnt even address the simplest question.


oh btw love the keyboard warriors comment so very originial


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## JQS

Looks like Danny DiMarzio was right:

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79645

"
*Authentication and rejection of Ninjutsu from Japan* 
The Iga-Ryu Ninja Museum states that Jinichi Kawakami is the last and only heir to authentic Ninjutsu:

http://iganinja.jp/en/faq/index.html

They also state he is called the "Last living modern Ninja":

http://iganinja.jp/en/exp/learning.html

Banke Shinobinoden (affiliated with Jinichi Kawakami) state that they are the last practitioners of historically authentic Ninjutsu left in the world:

http://www.eonet.ne.jp/~bankeshinobi/
(follow the English link)

The Book on Banke Shinobinoden's website also confirms this:

http://www.eonet.ne.jp/~bankeshinobi/news.html

On the same webpage it shows a link for the government of Shiga Prefecture, Japan. The link shows Banke Shinobinoden doing a seminar for Shiga Prefecture. 

http://www.pref.shiga.jp/h/m-doboku/konanIC/ibento.html

The Iga-Ryu Ninja museum is a public museum. It's purpose is to study and preserve ancient Japanese documents related to Ninjutsu. Part of the museum is for tourism but the other part is actually a real museum. They have many ancient documents related to authentic Ninjutsu. Again, they state that Jinichi Kawakami is the last inheritor of historically authentic Ninjutsu. 

*The people you might meet at the museum demonstrating techniques and such are just actors. They are in no way connected to Banke Shinobinoden or Jinichi Kawakami. Banke Shinobinoden is a completely different entity.*

Banke Shinobinoden is well-documented in Japan. 

Why the confusion over who carries on historically authentic Ninjutsu?

Why do so many people (outside of Japan) seem to believe Masaaki Hatsumi is related to authentic Ninjutsu? There has never been any proof of this..........why so much confusion?"


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## TimoS

JQS said:


> Looks like Danny DiMarzio was right:



Just out of curiosity, based on what? A post on an internet forum that has links to web pages? I can do one of those too, you know  Would that prove anything (except that I can use web page creation software)?  No, I didn't read those pages, couldn't really care less.


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## Obi Wan Shinobi

Well if I was curator of said museum then I could declare myself as soke to whatever art is on display. But I can't help but wonder why would someone be Soke of an art that is on display in a museum. I thought thats where all the scrolls of dead arts went to.


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## j5smoothe

i do not study ninjutsu yet but i do plan to start in the near future. that being said, if it is true about Jinichi Kawakami being the 21st Soke where does leave Dr. Hatsumi.


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## Brian R. VanCise

j5smoothe said:


> i do not study ninjutsu yet but i do plan to start in the near future. that being said, if it is true about Jinichi Kawakami being the 21st Soke where does leave Dr. Hatsumi.


 
Hatsumi is Hatsumi and the inheritor of the lineage that Takamatsu gave him. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  Also he is one of the finest martial artists on the planet.


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## allenjp

j5smoothe said:


> i do not study ninjutsu yet but i do plan to start in the near future. that being said, if it is true about Jinichi Kawakami being the 21st Soke where does leave Dr. Hatsumi.


 
I have not trained under Hatsumi's organisation, but I plan to...Just watch him enough (even on video) and you'll know he's legit, the man is amazing.


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## newtothe dark

allenjp said:


> I have not trained under Hatsumi's organisation, but I plan to...Just watch him enough (even on video) and you'll know he's legit, the man is amazing.


 

That is an understatement I usually start with WOW then just loose words.


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## kenjutsushi

Apparently Daniel feels so strongly he wrote a book about it.

http://www.lulu.com/content/2106699

:idunno:


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## j5smoothe

i do agree that he is amazing i have seen some of his footage. he is an outstanding martial artist i plan to train under his organization anyway. but, i guess what l'm asking is where does that leave him as far as the line of Soke's. i think he is the 34th and Kawakami claims to be the 21st. is it possible that they are both legit?


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## Cryozombie

j5smoothe said:


> i do agree that he is amazing i have seen some of his footage. he is an outstanding martial artist i plan to train under his organization anyway. but, i guess what l'm asking is where does that leave him as far as the line of Soke's. i think he is the 34th and Kawakami claims to be the 21st. is it possible that they are both legit?



I'm legit.  Cuz it says so on Martial Talk.  So it must be true right? Im the 3rd Generation, BTW.  So I beat them all.  And nevermind the dates, and average lifespans...  I'm sure I can explain that away.  Hey, BTW, if you want proof it will cost 20,000 bucks up front to get me in the ring.

Hahaha.

I am, as always, Cryozombie.


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## Hayseed

j5smoothe said:


> i do agree that he is amazing i have seen some of his footage. he is an outstanding martial artist i plan to train under his organization anyway. but, i guess what l'm asking is where does that leave him as far as the line of Soke's. i think he is the 34th and Kawakami claims to be the 21st. is it possible that they are both legit?


 
Just to clarify, they're talking about two(or more) separate lineages.


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## Obi Wan Shinobi

Well regardless of whether Jinichi Kawakami is legit or illegit Hatsumi Sensei will still be the Soke of Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu and the 9 RyuHas associated with that until he decides to pass the lineage down to a successor.


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## allenjp

Hayseed said:


> Just to clarify, they're talking about two(or more) separate lineages.


 
Yes, kawasaki, or whatever his name is claims to be soke of a different lineage than hatsumi. There used to be 73 or 77 or 103 (depending on who you listen to) ryuha of ninpo. Hatsumi is current soke of three of them, and it is generally accepted by most that have studied the history of these things that ALL of the others are extinct, including Iga ryu and koga (or koka, as this guy seems determined to call it) ryu. There was a man, named Fujita Seiko that clamied to have inherited the Koga ryu, but his claims are doubted by some, and even if he was soke of that lineage, he died in a car crash in the sixties and did not pass on his knowledge of that ryu.


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## Obi Wan Shinobi

allenjp said:


> Yes, kawasaki, or whatever his name is claims to be soke of a different lineage than hatsumi. There used to be 73 or 77 or 103 (depending on who you listen to) ryuha of ninpo. Hatsumi is current soke of three of them, and it is generally accepted by most that have studied the history of these things that ALL of the others are extinct, including Iga ryu and koga (or koka, as this guy seems determined to call it) ryu. There was a man, named Fujita Seiko that clamied to have inherited the Koga ryu, but his claims are doubted by some, and even if he was soke of that lineage, he died in a car crash in the sixties and did not pass on his knowledge of that ryu.


 
Some say that he died in a crash in the 60's but there's an obituary claiming that he died from cirrohsis of the liver.
http://fujitaseiko.tripod.com/


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## Henso

Fujita did NOT die in a car crash - the verdict of history is clear! I spent more than four years reseaching his career before publishing my work: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/14...&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=278240301&pf_rd_i=507846 The car crash thing is just another one of those myths that surround him. The real history of Koga-ryu Ninjutsu ended with him.

Phillip T Hevener


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## allenjp

Obi Wan Shinobi said:


> Some say that he died in a crash in the 60's but there's an obituary claiming that he died from cirrohsis of the liver.
> http://fujitaseiko.tripod.com/


 
OK, whatever, car crash or not he's dead. That, and the fact that he didn't pass on whatever knowledge he had of any ninpo ryu is the point of the post.


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## GBlues

The link works I went to it. Check it out.


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## GBlues

That flag is cool I want one!


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## tshadowchaser

Mr. Hevener, I have just ordered your book. I hope to find it an interesting read


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## 999

JQS said:


> Looks like Danny DiMarzio was right:
> 
> http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79645
> 
> "
> *Authentication and rejection of Ninjutsu from Japan*
> The Iga-Ryu Ninja Museum states that Jinichi Kawakami is the last and only heir to authentic Ninjutsu:
> 
> http://iganinja.jp/en/faq/index.html
> 
> They also state he is called the "Last living modern Ninja":
> 
> http://iganinja.jp/en/exp/learning.html
> 
> Banke Shinobinoden (affiliated with Jinichi Kawakami) state that they are the last practitioners of historically authentic Ninjutsu left in the world:
> 
> http://www.eonet.ne.jp/~bankeshinobi/
> (follow the English link)
> 
> The Book on Banke Shinobinoden's website also confirms this:
> 
> http://www.eonet.ne.jp/~bankeshinobi/news.html
> 
> On the same webpage it shows a link for the government of Shiga Prefecture, Japan. The link shows Banke Shinobinoden doing a seminar for Shiga Prefecture.
> 
> http://www.pref.shiga.jp/h/m-doboku/konanIC/ibento.html
> 
> The Iga-Ryu Ninja museum is a public museum. It's purpose is to study and preserve ancient Japanese documents related to Ninjutsu. Part of the museum is for tourism but the other part is actually a real museum. They have many ancient documents related to authentic Ninjutsu. Again, they state that Jinichi Kawakami is the last inheritor of historically authentic Ninjutsu.
> 
> *The people you might meet at the museum demonstrating techniques and such are just actors. They are in no way connected to Banke Shinobinoden or Jinichi Kawakami. Banke Shinobinoden is a completely different entity.*
> 
> Banke Shinobinoden is well-documented in Japan.
> 
> Why the confusion over who carries on historically authentic Ninjutsu?
> 
> Why do so many people (outside of Japan) seem to believe Masaaki Hatsumi is related to authentic Ninjutsu? There has never been any proof of this..........why so much confusion?"



It has to be known, Jinichi Kawakami is directly involved with Iga-Ueno museum. Also, he has much influence there, which is why his information features a lot on Iga Museum website. In Iga museum, there are multiple groups claiming to teach authentic ninjyutsu art, not only Jinichi Kawakami group. There are many groups that perform for Shiga and Mie government and festivals. Iga Museum, as many know, is not an ultimate reliable resource. For example, weapons on display are simply made and put in the ground to rust (As is with Togakusi). Jinichi Kawakami is known mainly as researcher, display weapon maker (He provides these for the museum - you can see pictures of them on his website) and performance.  Also, Iga and Kouka are used as 'umbrella' term, this is why Jinichi Kawakami uses both. 

I am interested mainly in Takamatsu Toshitsugu and Kuki family scrolls. I have seen Jinichi Kawakami perform, also Hatsumi Masaaki, Manaka Usui and Tanemura Shoto. All four in my sincere opinion are experts in various Ninjyutsu. However, 'Last Ninja' claim is for popular and media value; there are many families who still carry Ninjyutsu budo aspects (Ninjyutsu Gunpowder Budo for example). Ninjyutsu is very difficult to research or learn 'deeply', there is not much proof of direct transmission. It is easy to only know 'surface'. I think there are not many people who understand.

Thankyou.


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## Obi Wan Shinobi

Well I don't think that there are any real "Ninja" today. Maybe with the exception of Hatsumi-Sensei. But as for Jinichi Kawakami I know that he is affiliated with that hombre...Juan Hombre. So that in itself makes me question his claims. Not to mention that I haven't seen anything to who actually trained him in Ninjutsu.


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## 9999

Obi Wan Shinobi said:


> Well I don't think that there are any real "Ninja" today. Maybe with the exception of Hatsumi-Sensei. But as for Jinichi Kawakami I know that he is affiliated with that hombre...Juan Hombre. So that in itself makes me question his claims. Not to mention that I haven't seen anything to who actually trained him in Ninjutsu.


 
I don't know 'Juan Hombre' so I won't comment. He is from South America? I agree that expert in Ninjutsu is seperate from Ninjya. It also rests on your classification. Not 'TV Ninjya'. 'Nin-jya' has specific spiritual, martial art, special knowledge etc category and ability, so it can be known. I can see currently alive, Tanemura Shoto, Hatsumi Masaaki have respect in all these areas, but I also know families who also have this. So 'Last Ninjya' claim is something to say with no understanding. 

Kawakami Jinichi is Ninjyutsu expert, but this is due to research and performance. There was a TV program in Japan about his lifestyle, but this was for entertainment. So I can't comment on his personal life, only on his knowledge and dedicated practice and research. There are many people deeply practicing who are not known, so I think broad statement is not right.

Thankyou


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## Obi Wan Shinobi

9999 said:


> I don't know 'Juan Hombre' so I won't comment. He is from South America? I agree that expert in Ninjutsu is seperate from Ninjya. It also rests on your classification. Not 'TV Ninjya'. 'Nin-jya' has specific spiritual, martial art, special knowledge etc category and ability, so it can be known. I can see currently alive, Tanemura Shoto, Hatsumi Masaaki have respect in all these areas, but I also know families who also have this. So 'Last Ninjya' claim is something to say with no understanding.
> 
> Kawakami Jinichi is Ninjyutsu expert, but this is due to research and performance. There was a TV program in Japan about his lifestyle, but this was for entertainment. So I can't comment on his personal life, only on his knowledge and dedicated practice and research. There are many people deeply practicing who are not known, so I think broad statement is not right.
> 
> Thankyou


 
Ok so then when you're saying that Jinichi Kawakami is a Ninjutsu expert do you mean that he is a historical expert in Ninjutsu or as an actual practioner? Because even if he is practicing as a re enactor for his museum that doesn't make him an expert in the sense of a bonafide legit Martial Arts instructor. Its like the Civil War re enactors are very knowledgeable about the Civil War and the training and tactics of the civil war armies. But that doesn't make them actual Civil War Soldiers.
Not to mention that the art he claims Sokeship to is classified as died out which explains why the scrolls are in the museum. For the last 3-4 decades that the Takamatsuden arts have been practiced in America, no other Ninjutsu ryu has ever been acknowledged as legit with the possible exception of Fujita Seiko's Koga Ryu Wada Ha but that one died with him too....


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## TheArtofDave

Obi Wan Shinobi said:


> Ok so then when you're saying that Jinichi Kawakami is a Ninjutsu expert do you mean that he is a historical expert in Ninjutsu or as an actual practioner? Because even if he is practicing as a re enactor for his museum that doesn't make him an expert in the sense of a bonafide legit Martial Arts instructor. Its like the Civil War re enactors are very knowledgeable about the Civil War and the training and tactics of the civil war armies. But that doesn't make them actual Civil War Soldiers.
> Not to mention that the art he claims Sokeship to is classified as died out which explains why the scrolls are in the museum. For the last 3-4 decades that the Takamatsuden arts have been practiced in America, no other Ninjutsu ryu has ever been acknowledged as legit with the possible exception of Fujita Seiko's Koga Ryu Wada Ha but that one died with him too....


Okay I know this thread is super old but in regards to Juan Hombre he did train with Jininchi Kawakami but it was only for a few weeks. And he has no certificate so he can't teach. Doesn't appear that had stopped him.

And Jininchi Kawakami has stated he was an expert in historical ninjutsu. He also stated there were no students from the United States. It usually takes 10 to 15 years to become a student which is the standard there. He left no heir to koga (koka) ryu ninjutsu. 

Found that information on an old bullshido thread. One of their posters in 2009 attended a seminar where Jininchi Kawakami was the special guest.


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## Flying Crane

TheArtofDave said:


> Okay I know this thread is super old but in regards to Juan Hombre he did train with Jininchi Kawakami but it was only for a few weeks. And he has no certificate so he can't teach. Doesn't appear that had stopped him.
> 
> And Jininchi Kawakami has stated he was an expert in historical ninjutsu. He also stated there were no students from the United States. It usually takes 10 to 15 years to become a student which is the standard there. He left no heir to koga (koka) ryu ninjutsu.
> 
> Found that information on an old bullshido thread. One of their posters in 2009 attended a seminar where Jininchi Kawakami was the special guest.


Give it up.  I hold the record for oldest necro-thread, you aren’t gonna win that one.


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## _Simon_

Flying Crane said:


> Give it up.  I hold the record for oldest necro-thread, you aren’t gonna win that one.


Yes. You did indeed. Ahhh memories...

Kenpo (American - see also Kajukenbo)


----------

