# Need some help with my little issue..



## Owned (Apr 17, 2015)

Hello there, MartialTalk community !
As you can see, I'm new to the forum so I'm sorry if the thread is in the wrong section 

Well, I want to talk about my little issue, and I'll be glad to get some help from you guys.. it's really important for me.
I trained for like 2 years in Krav Maga, and I quit because of an injury. I must say, K.M. really raised my confidence..
Today I feel a different guy - I can get hit by punches, kicks and keep moving. Plus, now I can actually react in fights!
Well.. that's what I thought.

I never had a real fight before, outside my dojo. Until last month.
I was in a birthday party and I took some food for myself. Some guy thought I took to much (I'm not sure why is it disturbed him), and he came in front of me, put his hand over my "rear neck" and like threat me. He didn't do any other physical move, but I just *freeze.* I couldn't react..

Probably, all my 2 years of training like worth *NOTHING*, if I couldn't do anything in real-time.
Why does I feel like that? why every time and I walk in the street or any other place, and someone is looking at me weird, or my body just feel like something is going to happend - I start to sweat and freeze a bit? why??

I really want to "stop freezing", I want to be able to make some moves in real-time, and not only in my dojo.
What am I doing wrong? how can I overcome that fear?
I'll be glad to get some help, thank you..


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## Drose427 (Apr 17, 2015)

Owned said:


> Hello there, MartialTalk community !
> As you can see, I'm new to the forum so I'm sorry if the thread is in the wrong section
> 
> Well, I want to talk about my little issue, and I'll be glad to get some help from you guys.. it's really important for me.
> ...



assuming youre reacting and fighting properly against opponents in the ring or dojo who are outt to harm you, its sounds like youre mentally freezing up.

Instead of staying calm and focused in order to react properly, youre panicking wheb in danger. Thats something that isnt easy to fix

Contact sparring and drills  and bouts\matches (official or with like minded guys) are the closest you can come, but it isnt an exact translation to being in real danger. In those situations theres always someone there to stop it from going to far.

Its something that some folks need more practice than others at, and something youre gonna have to consciously work on every single time you do contact anything


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 17, 2015)

Owned said:


> I just *freeze.* I couldn't react.


If you spar/wrestle 15 rounds daily, in 1 year you will have sparred/wrestled 365 x 15 = 5,475 rounds. Your accumulated experience will help you to develop your confidence. IMO, this is the only way and there is no other ways.

When you think you are a

- nail, everybody will look like hammer to you.
- hammer, everybody will look like nail to you.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Apr 17, 2015)

Continuous training will help you get over this "freeze", in time.  *If the training is geared towards that*.  I would advise you to do some Scenario Based Training either with FAST Defense, Instinctive Response Training, etc.  In it you will get an adrenaline dump and learn how to deal with it.  This in turn will help you overcome freezing up in the future.


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## drop bear (Apr 17, 2015)

Take up boxing. Do a fight. You are not any more scared or weaker than anyone else.


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## hoshin1600 (Apr 17, 2015)

Most people are familiar with the "Fight or flight" response we get from an adrenaline dump but there is also the freeze response.  These are all natural and common so don't feel bad about having them the key is to learn to work with them and though them. From what you wrote my impression is this...
Having someone grab you around the back of your neck with their hand is outside of most people's training.  I like to break down conflicts and fights into segments. Some of those segments match what you have experienced and some will not. It is always these unfamiliar segments that people have a hard time dealing with because it doesn't look like what you have done before and the brain is trying to make connections and find a response but can't find one.
In the situation you described he may have laid his hand on you but that was it. It would have been up to you to raise the level of the confrontation and make it a fight. That is a hard decision for some people to make and in most instances the correct thing to do is not escalate . Fights turn to law suits and no one really ever wins.
The other posters where correct. If your not training try to get back into it. It will raise your confidence level.  Skills leave you very quickly.  I also would advise some scenario based training.


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## K-man (Apr 17, 2015)

Firstly, welcome to MT!

What you have experienced is the effect of the adrenalin dump. Brian and hoshin have explained it above. The freeze is a natural part of the adrenalin response and is the bodies natural reaction to being startled. How long it lasts will vary from person to person. Sparring in controlled conditions like a dojo or ring and not necessarily going to do a lot to reduce it as you are not really being threatened. What Brian suggested above with reality based training will give you the same sort of challenge and the same reaction.  You don't need hundreds of rounds of sparring, your Krav training for two years should have given you all the tools you need to defend yourself. Re-read Brian's post and chase up some of that type of training.


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## Mephisto (Apr 18, 2015)

Owned said:


> Hello there, MartialTalk community !
> As you can see, I'm new to the forum so I'm sorry if the thread is in the wrong section
> 
> Well, I want to talk about my little issue, and I'll be glad to get some help from you guys.. it's really important for me.
> ...


What kind of training did you do in krav? I'm just curious, did you spar regularly? If so what was the sparring format? I trained martial arts for a few years and did some occasional light sparring, wearing your standard foam dipped tkd style gear. I thought I was confident. 

Then I trained bjj, in bjj I rolled with bigger stronger guys trying to submit me every class, After a while I experienced a new level of confidence unlike what I'd felt before. When I started sparring in boxing years later I could feel that confidence again. My point is some people think they are confident, they think drills and scenarios give them what they need, and I think they help. But I believe that sparring with hard contact takes training and confidence to another level. Does it guarantee you won't freeze under pressure? Of course not, but I think it helps more than many people realize. I don't think more scenario training is the answer, you're never gonna perfectly emulate every scenario. Multiple opponents and other drills are good but the ability to react under pressure is whats going to make the difference.

How did your confrontation end up? What would you have liked to have done? Not doing anything may have been the best solution. Reacting with violence may have only made you look bad. You made it out alright so that's a victory. This scenario is another reason I advocate developing skills to handle a nonlethal threat. Grappling could have helped, a solid punch or palm to the chest or stomach may have been enough to get your message across. A knee stomp, eye gouge, or grion kick? Probably would have been overkill.


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## Owned (Apr 18, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> assuming youre reacting and fighting properly against opponents in the ring or dojo who are outt to harm you, its sounds like youre mentally freezing up.
> 
> Instead of staying calm and focused in order to react properly, youre panicking wheb in danger. Thats something that isnt easy to fix
> 
> ...





Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you spar/wrestle 15 rounds daily, in 1 year you will have sparred/wrestled 365 x 15 = 5,475 rounds. Your accumulated experience will help you to develop your confidence. IMO, this is the only way and there is no other ways.
> 
> When you think you are a
> 
> ...


Thanks for your comments, you are right.



Brian R. VanCise said:


> Continuous training will help you get over this "freeze", in time.  *If the training is geared towards that*.  I would advise you to do some Scenario Based Training either with FAST Defense, Instinctive Response Training, etc.  In it you will get an adrenaline dump and learn how to deal with it.  This in turn will help you overcome freezing up in the future.


I really hope, because I trained for almost 2 years, and everyone said my progress were fine.. but it doesn't seems like that. The problem is, in Krav Maga we learn techniques and make some fights/sparings, ONLY in order to achieve the next belt. That's it, those are our only tools.



drop bear said:


> Take up boxing. Do a fight. You are not any more scared or weaker than anyone else.


Well, that's also right.. I just want to be unlike anyone else.



hoshin1600 said:


> Most people are familiar with the "Fight or flight" response we get from an adrenaline dump but there is also the freeze response.  These are all natural and common so don't feel bad about having them the key is to learn to work with them and though them. From what you wrote my impression is this...
> Having someone grab you around the back of your neck with their hand is outside of most people's training.  I like to break down conflicts and fights into segments. Some of those segments match what you have experienced and some will not. It is always these unfamiliar segments that people have a hard time dealing with because it doesn't look like what you have done before and the brain is trying to make connections and find a response but can't find one.
> In the situation you described he may have laid his hand on you but that was it. It would have been up to you to raise the level of the confrontation and make it a fight. That is a hard decision for some people to make and in most instances the correct thing to do is not escalate . Fights turn to law suits and no one really ever wins.
> The other posters where correct. If your not training try to get back into it. It will raise your confidence level.  Skills leave you very quickly.  I also would advise some scenario based training.


First, thank you. Now, about my confortation - when the guy put his hand over my neck, I froze, but few minutes later, after I walked away, my brain found an easy response for that (for instance, take out his hand, push him, threat him and stuff). I could do that easily, but I didn't. Unfortunately.
When I'm thinking about it now, I had no reason to afraid the law. Why? because I could "disable" the threat, without making any over-damage to the guy. Right now? I feel like I just lose, and he won.



K-man said:


> Firstly, welcome to MT!
> 
> What you have experienced is the effect of the adrenalin dump. Brian and hoshin have explained it above. The freeze is a natural part of the adrenalin response and is the bodies natural reaction to being startled. How long it lasts will vary from person to person. Sparring in controlled conditions like a dojo or ring and not necessarily going to do a lot to reduce it as you are not really being threatened. What Brian suggested above with reality based training will give you the same sort of challenge and the same reaction.  You don't need hundreds of rounds of sparring, your Krav training for two years should have given you all the tools you need to defend yourself. Re-read Brian's post and chase up some of that type of training.


First of all, thank you!
Well, you are also right. Actually, I feel like I can defend myself right now. When I'm having unreal fights with my friends, I'm avoiding almost 99% of they're hits. So basically I got the tools, that probably gets away in the REAL rights..



Mephisto said:


> What kind of training did you do in krav? I'm just curious, did you spar regularly? If so what was the sparring format? I trained martial arts for a few years and did some occasional light sparring, wearing your standard foam dipped tkd style gear. I thought I was confident.
> 
> Then I trained bjj, in bjj I rolled with bigger stronger guys trying to submit me every class, After a while I experienced a new level of confidence unlike what I'd felt before. When I started sparring in boxing years later I could feel that confidence again. My point is some people think they are confident, they think drills and scenarios give them what they need, and I think they help. But I believe that sparring with hard contact takes training and confidence to another level. Does it guarantee you won't freeze under pressure? Of course not, but I think it helps more than many people realize. I don't think more scenario training is the answer, you're never gonna perfectly emulate every scenario. Multiple opponents and other drills are good but the ability to react under pressure is whats going to make the difference.
> 
> How did your confrontation end up? What would you have liked to have done? Not doing anything may have been the best solution. Reacting with violence may have only made you look bad. You made it out alright so that's a victory. This scenario is another reason I advocate developing skills to handle a nonlethal threat. Grappling could have helped, a solid punch or palm to the chest or stomach may have been enough to get your message across. A knee stomp, eye gouge, or grion kick? Probably would have been overkill.


In our Krav Maga, there are many belts. Every belt has it own techniques, and that's what our Krav Maga based on. Techniques. We are learning the basic punches, kicks, elbow hits and stuff, avoiding chokes and liftings, and in higher levels we are learning how to avoid knifes, pistols, sticks and stuff. The Krav Maga made for the street, so there's no rules, and we are trying to hit especially in the weak spots of the attacker. We also have some sparrings regularly. We are using a simple gear like gloves, and spar for like 3 minutes, including boxes, kicks, elbows, knees, etc. 
My confortation ends up as I said. I just walked away, and that's why I felt like I lose. Because I couldn't react, I couldn't say anything. That guy lead me, I felt like he told me what to do and how to act. I really wanted to diable him - take his hand out, push him, threat him or something, but.. I just couldn't. The truth? walking away with a scared face, with tens of people around watching you, made me look bad, more than react or use some violance. For me? that's not a victory.

Thank you all for your comments and advices, I'll consider it as soon as possible!
I really glad that I came to that forum, I'm sure I'll stay here for a long time..


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## Buka (Apr 18, 2015)

Welcome to MT, bro.

You'll be okay, don't let it worry you too much. Training for two years is like going to law school for two years, you probably wouldn't ace the Bar Exam. Just look at your issue as one more piece of life experience. Hang in there, bro, you're only human, no big deal.


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## Jenna (Apr 18, 2015)

@Owned My friend I am sorry to hear you have been put in this situation.  It sounds like it is been hard for you to deal with.  That cannot be easy.  I am glad you are checking for advice though, good for you!

I would hope you do not miss the lesson this experience is attempting to teach you!  You have walked away with a scared face.  Maybe this is better than walking away with a bloodied face?  Or being carried away?  I want you to go easy on your self.  Fight/flight/freeze are all your body's completely natural adrenaline/epinephrine responses.  You were unable to do much else NOT BECAUSE OF ANY WEAKNESS IN YOU!! NO!! only because you have not practiced this situation previously   So you may feel you lose face in this argument, I understand this.  It make sense.  And but you are still here and that is a good thing, yes? 

I am nobody to advise and but I say you do not need to do much to change this for your self!  You have trained your KM already and so the weak link in your defence is perhaps your THINKING process?? You were not EXPECTING this confrontation, yes?  All you need to is THINK exactly where you are, what are the risks to me?  what can I do to avoid these risks becoming real threats?  If these are real threats and it look like I am about to be involved in some thing, what is my KM experience yelling at me to do right now?  

So you THINK these things all of the time.. wherever you find your self.  I do not mean for you to be paranoid, to me routinely engaging this activity wherever I am is always interesting.. ask, what would I do if some thing here goes against me 

Just my thoughts.. Be safe, stay well, Jxxx


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## yak sao (Apr 18, 2015)

Owned said:


> Why does I feel like that? why every time and I walk in the street or any other place, and someone is looking at me weird, or my body just feel like something is going to happend - I start to sweat and freeze a bit? why??
> 
> ..



There was this guy once named Bruce Lee, perhaps you've heard of him.
He said something to the effect that when he felt butterflies in his stomach he knew his body was primed and ready to fight.


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## drop bear (Apr 18, 2015)

Owned said:


> Well, that's also right.. I just want to be unlike anyone else.



Then commit yourself and become better.


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## Owned (Apr 18, 2015)

Jenna said:


> @Owned My friend I am sorry to hear you have been put in this situation.  It sounds like it is been hard for you to deal with.  That cannot be easy.  I am glad you are checking for advice though, good for you!
> 
> I would hope you do not miss the lesson this experience is attempting to teach you!  You have walked away with a scared face.  Maybe this is better than walking away with a bloodied face?  Or being carried away?  I want you to go easy on your self.  Fight/flight/freeze are all your body's completely natural adrenaline/epinephrine responses.  You were unable to do much else NOT BECAUSE OF ANY WEAKNESS IN YOU!! NO!! only because you have not practiced this situation previously   So you may feel you lose face in this argument, I understand this.  It make sense.  And but you are still here and that is a good thing, yes?
> 
> ...


That was a great comment, thank you! I like the way you're thinking 
You are actually right, my weak link is my thinking. Everyone said and everything start in the head, the mind. 
And what do you know.. they are right. That's what I probably have to change in myself.
I guess I learned one thing or two from that experience, until next time.. 



yak sao said:


> There was this guy once named Bruce Lee, perhaps you've heard of him.
> He said something to the effect that when he felt butterflies in his stomach he knew his body was primed and ready to fight.


What a legend.. that what I want to become, what how I want to think!



drop bear said:


> Then commit yourself and become better.


I will.


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## K-man (Apr 18, 2015)

Owned said:


> Now, about my confortation - when the guy put his hand over my neck, I froze, but few minutes later, after I walked away, my brain found an easy response for that (for instance, take out his hand, push him, threat him and stuff). I could do that easily, but I didn't.


I think we need to look at what actually happened. It was a different situation to how you have trained. If he had engaged you from in front, I have no doubt your response would have been totally different. Your reaction was perfectly normal. We freeze when something unexpected happens and that is part of the body's natural protection. It gives time to assess the situation. If someone suddenly pulls a knife on you, the chances are you will freeze. It stops you running into the knife. The secret is to reduce that freeze to a millisecond. Sparring in the dojo or fighting in the ring is totally different. You might have the butterflies but you won't freeze. Sparring more will not help you in this case. What you need to train are situations where you are surprised and that happens in the reality based training Brian mentioned above.



Owned said:


> Well, you are also right. Actually, I feel like I can defend myself right now. When I'm having unreal fights with my friends, I'm avoiding almost 99% of they're hits. So basically I got the tools, that probably gets away in the REAL rights..


You obviously have the tools. Now all you need is some situational training.


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## Brian King (Apr 18, 2015)

Above thread some great advice about learning to deal with the adrenelin dumps and the nervous systems reactions. Owned, there is another lesson here that you might not yet realize and be aware of 

During the fight, fight. After the fight, quit fighting.

Even today, days after the situation you are still throwing punches. It is fine to replay the situation to learn the lessons needed. It is great to recreate the situation with some training partners exploring some different options that were available. Understand that like a diving into river - the dive is never the same twice. Each fight, each circumstance you will face will also be different from prior experiences except for one thing. Your body will react. The reaction will vary in severity but will start the same. Learning how to recognize this reaction and learning how to mitigate and deal with your bodies reaction is a valuable tool. 
One of the ways that we cleanse the chemical reaction is to refight over and over. In my opinion, this is not the healthiest method. If we look at animals, they have confrontations, do the work, then get on with life right away. Can you imagine an animal thinking to itself - "Why - should a" or " "next time - I will show it not to pee on my lawn!"  We can learn from this I think. 

One other thing, do not get beat up twice. So often after a conflict we beat ourselves with the should a and could haves. We knock our reactions, we place blame, we scar our own psyche's as deeply, if not more so, than our 'opponents' do. This is not healthy or helpful. 

Learn the lesson then move on.

Did you go back for seconds after the exchange?

Regards
Brian King


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## Danny T (Apr 18, 2015)

Owned said:


> Hello there, MartialTalk community !
> As you can see, I'm new to the forum so I'm sorry if the thread is in the wrong section
> 
> Well, I want to talk about my little issue, and I'll be glad to get some help from you guys.. it's really important for me.
> ...


Have you heard of the OODA Loop?
Observe, Orient, Decide, Act
Look into understanding the OODA Loop and Operant Conditioning training.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 18, 2015)

Owned said:


> he came in front of me, put his hand over my "rear neck" ...


Is that a "single neck tie (or double neck tie)"? Why would anybody want to threat you like that? There are so many solutions that you can do from that position.


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## Danny T (Apr 18, 2015)

Owned said:


> So basically I got the tools, that probably gets away in the REAL rights..



Have the tools and using them in training is good. Using them in a high stress, adrenaline dump situation is another. Your training must take in account its affects and how to over come it through the proper conditioning of stimulus-response training. (Operant conditioning)


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## Mephisto (Apr 19, 2015)

I don't think more situational training is the answer to the ops dilemma. The op has trained krav for two years and has done situational training. His situational training failed to prepare him for this incident. He's also done sparring that failed to prepare him for this incident. I question the sparring he did and its effectiveness. The op mentioned he wore gloves, and trained punches, kicks and elbows to weak points. This sounds suspicious to me as far as hard contact soarring is concerned. Elbows with no headgear is not something many schools do regularly, especially if they don't spar regularly. Improper sparring does not build true confidence. Drills will ways leave doubt in your mind. There is no substitute for the confidence and knowledge that comes when you know an opponent has done everything they can to stop you and you have still prevailed. You can't train every situation, relying on situational training without hard sparring will not build adequate confidence. Perhaps both are good training tools but I value hard sparring over  other methods like situational training but situational training can help you optimize and apply the knowledge gained from sparring. 

I think the op should seriously consider a system that spars regularly such as bjj, judo, or boxing. These systems will build confidence in the face of aggression. Perhaps combined with his rbsd knowledge gained from krav he will be well prepared for a real conflict.


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## Hanzou (Apr 19, 2015)

Mephisto said:


> I don't think more situational training is the answer to the ops dilemma. The op has trained krav for two years and has done situational training. His situational training failed to prepare him for this incident. He's also done sparring that failed to prepare him for this incident. I question the sparring he did and its effectiveness. The op mentioned he wore gloves, and trained punches, kicks and elbows to weak points. This sounds suspicious to me as far as hard contact soarring is concerned. Elbows with no headgear is not something many schools do regularly, especially if they don't spar regularly. Improper sparring does not build true confidence. Drills will ways leave doubt in your mind. There is no substitute for the confidence and knowledge that comes when you know an opponent has done everything they can to stop you and you have still prevailed. You can't train every situation, relying on situational training without hard sparring will not build adequate confidence. Perhaps both are good training tools but I value hard sparring over  other methods like situational training but situational training can help you optimize and apply the knowledge gained from sparring.
> 
> I think the op should seriously consider a system that spars regularly such as bjj, judo, or boxing. These systems will build confidence in the face of aggression. Perhaps combined with his rbsd knowledge gained from krav he will be well prepared for a real conflict.



I agree completely.

I had the same freezing issues as the OP coming out of Shotokan. Boxing, Judo, and Bjj (ironically the exact same three arts Mephisto mentioned) fixed that problem fairly quickly, enhancing my natural reactions to a situation where someone was trying to physically dominate me.

I would also recommend the OP to go to a gym that practices those types of arts in addition to his Krav training. Perhaps a good MMA gym maybe a good solution for his dilemma?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 19, 2015)

Mephisto said:


> I don't think more situational training is the answer to the ops dilemma.


Agree!

No matter what style that you may train, you will need to move your body to be out of "uncomfortable situation" even if you don't intend to get into a fight. Both good footwork plus good body method will be needed.

When your opponent stands in front of you and put his right hand behind your neck,

- by using your right hand to grab on his right wrist,
- put your left arm under his right arm, and hold on his left shoulder,
- step your right leg behind your left leg,
- with a fast body spinning to your right,

you should not only get yourself out of the "uncomfortable situation", you can also "crack" your opponent's right elbow joint, and take him all the way down to the ground.

Since "single neck tie" is commonly used in the wrestling match, you can develop this skill through your daily 15 rounds wrestling match,


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## hoshin1600 (Apr 19, 2015)

one thing i think that is being over looked is that in the situation described, an escalation was not called for. unless there is more to the story.  any physical reaction would be escalating a mostly verbal but intimidating situation into a physical one.
here in the U.S. someone can be screaming at you and if you punch them or react physically then you are committing assault.  now the perpetrator did grab the defender in a physical manner that can be perceived as threatening or intimidating.  but as a defender without an action that can be recognized as a physical assault , like a punch or a type of hit,  the brain will be stuck in limbo trying to decide if a reaction is the right thing to do or not and if it is truly needed.  in this case we are assuming that everyone went home safe without a fight. to me that implies no action was the right thing to do (albeit a little sore on the ego).   
this situation happens all the time. maybe someone is yelling and poking me in the chest, maybe i see a few shady looking characters walking towards me down the street, or maybe a gangsta looking teen is right up close to me talking trash in my face.  at what point do you pull the switch and let the fists fly?  as martial practitioners we should have made that decision and defined what that point is both personally and legally during our training and not in the heat of the moment.  yes ,every situation is different but we should at least be able to recongnize that X-Y&Z must be present before we can legally make a step up in escalation of the force continuum.


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## Mephisto (Apr 19, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> I agree completely.
> 
> I had the same freezing issues as the OP coming out of Shotokan. Boxing, Judo, and Bjj (ironically the exact same three arts Mephisto mentioned) fixed that problem fairly quickly, enhancing my natural reactions to a situation where someone was trying to physically dominate me.
> 
> I would also recommend the OP to go to a gym that practices those types of arts in addition to his Krav training. Perhaps a good MMA gym maybe a good solution for his dilemma?


Yeah, but didn't we ready decide that you didn't train "teh realz" shotokan? All other shotokan schools spar full contact and include grappling,your argument is invalid 


hoshin1600 said:


> one thing i think that is being over looked is that in the situation described, an escalation was not called for. unless there is more to the story.  any physical reaction would be escalating a mostly verbal but intimidating situation into a physical one.
> here in the U.S. someone can be screaming at you and if you punch them or react physically then you are committing assault.  now the perpetrator did grab the defender in a physical manner that can be perceived as threatening or intimidating.  but as a defender without an action that can be recognized as a physical assault , like a punch or a type of hit,  the brain will be stuck in limbo trying to decide if a reaction is the right thing to do or not and if it is truly needed.  in this case we are assuming that everyone went home safe without a fight. to me that implies no action was the right thing to do (albeit a little sore on the ego).
> this situation happens all the time. maybe someone is yelling and poking me in the chest, maybe i see a few shady looking characters walking towards me down the street, or maybe a gangsta looking teen is right up close to me talking trash in my face.  at what point do you pull the switch and let the fists fly?  as martial practitioners we should have made that decision and defined what that point is both personally and legally during our training and not in the heat of the moment.  yes ,every situation is different but we should at least be able to recongnize that X-Y&Z must be present before we can legally make a step up in escalation of the force continuum.



You might have missed my first post, but I reached the same conclusion. Intimidation does not necessarily justify force, but some grappling and solid striking footwork can straddle the line quite well. The problem is if you train a krav school that focuses on deadly vital point strikes all you have is last ditch dirty fighting tactics that aren't applicapable to these gray areas of confrontation. Any time you make it home safe is a victory imo, but complete surrender isn't the only option.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 19, 2015)

Mephisto said:


> but complete surrender isn't the only option.


Agree! You may surrender today, you may surrender tomorrow, but are you going to surrender for the rest of your life? 

The grappling art has the advantage. Besides "fist meets face", there are other options such as:

1. footwork,
2. dodge,
3. body control,
4. joint lock,
5. choke,
6. take down,
7. ...

If you just stay in 1. footwork and 2. dodge, or even if you get into 3. body control (for example a nice friendly bear hug), the fight is still not escalated yet.


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## BMhadoken (Apr 19, 2015)

Owned, I know you're feeling stupid and sissified, and the others have offered great advice on how to control the OODA loop and how you react to the unexpected, but have you considered that your reaction wasn't the actually wrong one for this situation? You're upset because you didn't react the way you thought you'd trained for, but you also didn't do anything potentially stupid to escalate the situation.


> when the guy put his hand over my neck, I froze, but few minutes later, after I walked away, my brain found an easy response for that (for instance, take out his hand, push him, threat him and stuff). I could do that easily, but I didn't


Like that.
Not every challenge needs to be answered, and as long as you can control your fear/startle reaction to your satisfaction, that's not a bad way of handling it.


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## drop bear (Apr 19, 2015)

Mephisto said:


> I don't think more situational training is the answer to the ops dilemma. The op has trained krav for two years and has done situational training. His situational training failed to prepare him for this incident. He's also done sparring that failed to prepare him for this incident. I question the sparring he did and its effectiveness. The op mentioned he wore gloves, and trained punches, kicks and elbows to weak points. This sounds suspicious to me as far as hard contact soarring is concerned. Elbows with no headgear is not something many schools do regularly, especially if they don't spar regularly. Improper sparring does not build true confidence. Drills will ways leave doubt in your mind. There is no substitute for the confidence and knowledge that comes when you know an opponent has done everything they can to stop you and you have still prevailed. You can't train every situation, relying on situational training without hard sparring will not build adequate confidence. Perhaps both are good training tools but I value hard sparring over  other methods like situational training but situational training can help you optimize and apply the knowledge gained from sparring.
> 
> I think the op should seriously consider a system that spars regularly such as bjj, judo, or boxing. These systems will build confidence in the face of aggression. Perhaps combined with his rbsd knowledge gained from krav he will be well prepared for a real conflict.



Do a ring  fight. Go up against someone who hates him in front of his friends. He will either win and realise he has the tools or loose and realise that it is not the end of the world. Either way he will know he can step up.


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## Shai Hulud (Apr 19, 2015)

Owned said:


> Hello there, MartialTalk community !
> As you can see, I'm new to the forum so I'm sorry if the thread is in the wrong section
> 
> Well, I want to talk about my little issue, and I'll be glad to get some help from you guys.. it's really important for me.
> ...


Training for technique, power or speed is different from training for spirit, and there lies the rub in the sordid world of martial arts and self-defense. It isn't something you can just mentally correct overnight, or even over the span of a few nights or training sessions. 

It takes training, and the right kind of training at that. Statically drilling technique and sparring are nice, but I highly recommend set-up scenarios that simulate real-life situations you may find yourself in. In my old Keysi classes and even now in my Combat Sambo classes, we simulate muggers going for my purse, a thug sitting next to me on the bus, rape attacks (those were tough on me), and even 2 or 3-on-1 muggings. The only way you're going to be prepared for something is if you've taken some time aside prior to practice and anticipate it, and in your head you'll probably have drilled it over and over again, playing the scenario and several possible outcomes again and again. Few people have the ability to immediately adapt to whatever circumstances are put right in front of them abruptly. Most people will have to pre-meditate their battle plans, so to speak, or strategies and tactics for later use. It's preparation for your mind, and training your reflexes. This is the holistic approach to training for combat, and the core of all martial art. I wish you luck.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 19, 2015)

How far do you want to back up? When someone's hand has already touched you, should you do something? You should not push other people around. But when someone pushes you around, you should stand on your ground and never back up.

When your opponent's right hand holds behind your neck, if you

- keep your left arm straight,
- move your left arm horizontally to your right,

you can put pressure on his right wrist and force him to remove his hand from your neck. That's 100% self-definition and you will be OK in the court. Again, you will need to have solid MA skill to support yourself and that's MA training, MA training, and still MA training.


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## K-man (Apr 19, 2015)

Owned said:


> I was in a birthday party and I took some food for myself. Some guy thought I took to much (I'm not sure why is it disturbed him), and he came in front of me, put his hand over my "rear neck" and like threat me. He didn't do any other physical move, but I just *freeze.* I couldn't react..


Let's go back a step. This is a social function, a birthday party. Now I don't know if *Owned* knew the guy concerned but either way we might presume the guy was a friend of the person who was celebrating the birthday. *Owned* was holding a plate of food. Now I misread the OP first time and my earlier comments were predicated on the person holding the neck from behind.

So what is the appropriate response? I would suggest it is to do very little. The issue is that *Owned* froze. That's understandable as it is an unusual situation. We haven't been told what was said or the tone of the conversation, yet the intimation here on MT is that you would immediately drop your plate tear into the guy and totally disrupt the party.

Surely the best response was precisely what *Owned* did ... nothing. Sure there may have been ways to de-escalate the situation by saying something like, "yeah, I got a bit carried away with all this great food", but I'm sure we've all been in the situation where the right words didn't immediately spring to mind. I don't know what you call it in America but we call that being 'tongue tied'.

So back to the OP. How do you overcome the situation of freezing in that sort of situation? It was totally unexpected, it was not necessarily done with aggression and it was an invasion of personal space. I would suggest that you could have 5000 ring fights and still not have the answer. I would also suggest that learning to deal with this situation is more to do with self defence and interpersonal skills than actually fighting. For me, role playing is more the answer than fighting.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 19, 2015)

Since you won't know whether or not your opponent will punch on your face from that position, to "*disconnect your opponent's body contact, move out of the way, and remain distance*" is the most proper solution IMO. To protect your own safety (this is your personal right) should be your highest priority.


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## Transk53 (Apr 19, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Since you won't know whether or not your opponent will punch on your face from that position, to "*disconnect your opponent's body contact, move out of the way, and remain distance*" is the most proper solution IMO. To protect your own safety (this is your personal right) should be your highest priority.



Decent stamp to the foot works.


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## Mephisto (Apr 19, 2015)

K-man said:


> Let's go back a step. This is a social function, a birthday party. Now I don't know if *Owned* knew the guy concerned but either way we might presume the guy was a friend of the person who was celebrating the birthday. *Owned* was holding a plate of food. Now I misread the OP first time and my earlier comments were predicated on the person holding the neck from behind.
> 
> So what is the appropriate response? I would suggest it is to do very little. The issue is that *Owned* froze. That's understandable as it is an unusual situation. We haven't been told what was said or the tone of the conversation, yet the intimation here on MT is that you would immediately drop your plate tear into the guy and totally disrupt the party.
> 
> ...


Really it depends on the food. Are we talking ribs and chicken or hotdogs and burgers? Cause if it was hotdogs and burgers, drop the plate and make a scene. But ribs? You'd better not spill that plate! Best to settle things later on a full belly....and we haven't even gotten into the side dishes yet


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## BMhadoken (Apr 19, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Since you won't know whether or not your opponent will punch on your face from that position, to "*disconnect your opponent's body contact, move out of the way, and remain distance*" is the most proper solution IMO. To protect your own safety (this is your personal right) should be your highest priority.


If your goal is ensuring your safety then distance is the best bet. Swipe his arm off, sure, but then give yourself time to react to what happens next. Also makes it much less "confrontational" when you tell guy not to put hands on you like that.


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## drop bear (Apr 19, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Decent stamp to the foot works.



Not with adults. Especially from there. There is only so much time to do techniques in a fight. So as you choose to foot stamp and he chooses to elbow you in the face. You will come off second best in that exchange.


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## drop bear (Apr 19, 2015)

K-man said:


> Let's go back a step. This is a social function, a birthday party. Now I don't know if *Owned* knew the guy concerned but either way we might presume the guy was a friend of the person who was celebrating the birthday. *Owned* was holding a plate of food. Now I misread the OP first time and my earlier comments were predicated on the person holding the neck from behind.
> 
> So what is the appropriate response? I would suggest it is to do very little. The issue is that *Owned* froze. That's understandable as it is an unusual situation. We haven't been told what was said or the tone of the conversation, yet the intimation here on MT is that you would immediately drop your plate tear into the guy and totally disrupt the party.
> 
> ...



But you don't fight people. Don't engage in confrontation and are not tasked with equipping people to do either of the above.

It is exactly what I do. Especially taking people who have never had a fight and freeze up and creating people who will act decisively in one.


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## BMhadoken (Apr 19, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Not with adults. Especially from there. There is only so much time to do techniques in a fight. So as you choose to foot stamp and he chooses to elbow you in the face. You will come off second best in that exchange.


This, and the fact that this wasn't a fight until _you_ started physically attacking the guy.


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## drop bear (Apr 19, 2015)

Ok defending the collar tie minus the best one which is just treating the grab like a punch and just blocking or moving.

You could do about half that and be out generally. But if you want to set up for a good position to reengage that is there too.

I don't think a one handed crappy collar tie is the issue here. It was the perceived inability to act.

It is not whether op should have done something or shouldn't. In that scenario it doesn't really matter. It is his emotional state afterwards. Now after a fight that doesn't go anywhere you do get an emotional downer. That is just a thing that happens.

Now how you break that emotional response it the question.

The easy answer is. 

Don't be so prideful.

You loose fights or not look cool in one and feel like a dusche bag. So what? People loose fights. It is not the end of the world. 

Now getting your mindset there is the hard road.


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## jks9199 (Apr 19, 2015)

Others have brought this up, but I'll put it plainer. Seems to me you absolutely reacted appropriately to the situation. In a social situation as described, a violent physical response is likely unwarranted, possibly unjustified.  Owned want hurt, he was barely threatened. Maybe shifting and removing the hand would be in order, but little more. " He put his hand on my neck and told me I was taking too much, so I broke his arm, punched him in the face, and stomped through his knee." sounds like a great recipe for a lengthy stay in the Gray Bar Hotel, as well as civil penalties.  And then there's a bit of an elephant hiding in the corner: did the guy have a valid point, and the authority to make it?

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk


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## Mephisto (Apr 19, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Decent stamp to the foot works.


Only if you're in high heels and he's barefoot. This suggestion is very removed from reality. Stepping on the foot and giving him a shove is more plausible. But a foot stomp? This isnt WWE, why just give a nuggie or tittie twister? I hear purple nurples are also effective


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## Transk53 (Apr 20, 2015)

Mephisto said:


> Only if you're in high heels and he's barefoot. This suggestion is very removed from reality. Stepping on the foot and giving him a shove is more plausible. But a foot stomp? This isnt WWE, why just give a nuggie or tittie twister? I hear purple nurples are also effective




No not really. Someone grabbed me from behind, got my weight going backwards and stamped on his foot. Nothing superhero, just enough for that person to relinquish. Besides, WWE is faaar to pretty for me


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## Mephisto (Apr 20, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> No not really. Someone grabbed me from behind, got my weight going backwards and stamped on his foot. Nothing superhero, just enough for that person to relinquish. Besides, WWE is faaar to pretty for me


Im glad it worked for, sounds like it was a simple solution where you used it. I'm not sure if it would work for me,may be a move better suited to a heavy weight.


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## oftheherd1 (Apr 20, 2015)

You have gotten some good advice based on the scenario you provided.  But I can't help but think you haven't told us everything that happened.

Who was the guy who accosted you, and what was his stake in what you were doing?

Do/did you know him, or he you? 

Do a lot of people know you have studied a martial art; do you make sure people know?

Did this happen at a private residence or a public venue?

Did others at the party take you to task, support you, or ridicule you for action or lack of action?

Based only on what you have provided, it is difficult for me to provide anything I would consider useful advice.  It does sound like you feel you failed in some way.  Maybe you did, but if so, I would be interested in knowing why you feel that way.  Now that you have had a chance to think about it, what do you think would have been a better response, and why?

The best I can think of based on what I think you were trying to say and ask, is to go back and read Jenna's answer.  I was surprised more people didn't pick up on it.  Try to always think of how you would react to situations you see, or can imagine in your mind.  Pick them apart for your responses that would seem to be best to that situation.  Are there moves you have learned that would be effective?  Would they gain approval from your peers, or do you care, since you know you were threatened and survived?  Would no response be most appropriate?  Even if you freeze momentarily, always have a thought to what you think is most appropriate, from attacking viciously, to walking away and letting anyone who asks, know you don't find it worth it; they agree or not.


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## Transk53 (Apr 20, 2015)

Mephisto said:


> Im glad it worked for, sounds like it was a simple solution where you used it. I'm not sure if it would work for me,may be a move better suited to a heavy weight.



Yeah no doubt there is some kind of scientific term for this, but a lot of people in my experience do not like going backwards. People tend to panic, more so if you drop them, or at least look like you are going to drop them backwards. That would have had more impact on his mind rather than the stamp. Got away with that one. Against someone trained it would have got a little tasty I would imagine.


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## Owned (Apr 23, 2015)

First, I wasn't active on the forum because of work, but I want to thank you *all* for you comments!
I read all of them, and it was very helpful 

I'm gonna use some of your advices, in order to avoid those feelings and to act wisely in those confrontations.
Every situation from now, only will make me stronger. I'll keep train, hopefully to practice street scenarios and stuff.
Of course I'll try to remain cool, avoid unnecessary physical touch and back home safety (and alive).
But whenever I'll need to use my tools - I'll know how to use them in the BEST way 

Once again, *thank you all*, and I'm glad I met this forum!
Hope to post here again (at least some positive stuff hehe).
Have a nice day all.


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## JR 137 (May 3, 2015)

I think you're being a bit too hard on yourself.  Yes, you "froze," but it wasn't a big deal IMO.  I'm going to make a lot of assumptions, as I wasn't there, and I'm not going to get all textbook psychology on you...

You didn't have an immediate reaction because there were no warning signs.  You weren't in a bar, dark alley, weren't being threatened, etc.  The incident was unprovoked at a place where you shouldn't have to have been on guard, reasonably speaking.  The guy wasn't staring you down from across the room, you didn't say insulting things to him, etc.  There were no red flags.

When the grab occurred, your brain was probably stuck in a loop assessing the situation.  Had it been strong enough of a grab to cause actual pain, choking, etc. I'm pretty sure you'd have reacted.  The amount of force was probably in between "this guy's being an idiot" and "this guy's trying to hurt me."

To me, it seems like because of all the circumstances, your brain was trying to figure out if it was a real threat or not.  Had anything changed in the few seconds this went on - his grip got tighter, he raised a hand to hit you, he had that look of serious threat in his eyes, etc. you'd have snapped out of the "frozen" assessing state.

You weren't physically hurt.  The threat, while seemingly psychologically real after the fact, wasn't real enough for you to physically react.  You didn't attack from the smallest threat like a rabid pit bull.

Had he been actually choking you, had a grip tight enough to make your knees buckle, etc. and you did nothing, then I can see you doing a ton of soul-searching as to why you froze.  There was no real threat, therefore no real response.

Had this not been a friend of a friend (someone invited him) not at a friend's house, not on an occasion where you're not thinking of any realistic threat, then you should really assess why you froze.  If any single one of those had changed, the threat would have probably been determined as real immediately.

I'm assuming a ton of things here, as all of us are.  I'm not saying you're making too much of it, but you very well may be.  IMO the threat wasn't real enough to elicit an immediate response, that's why your brain was stuck analyzing all of these what ifs without you knowing it.


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