# Sifu is pissed off.



## Ironbear24 (Jun 21, 2016)

So apparently an anonymous caller told him about "how I beat up a middle aged man who is out of shape." This led to a long talk about fighting and he asked me honestly is this a habit of mine.

I told him about the other two incidents and he told me to take off the top of my gi and give it back to him. Since he doesnt want the dojos emblem to be associated with me.

I tried to make my own case and explain to him but he just wouldn't hear it. He didn't even let me finish talking so I tried talking over him to get a word in and that just annoyed him.

So he said if you want it back, spar me for it. Obviously I was reluctant to do that because he is better than I am, I foolishly agreed to it. It turned out pretty bad for me, I got lots of bruises on my body and eventually I balled up when I got tossed to the floor to try and stop his strikes. 

He kept telling me "You don't like that do you?" I tried to roll onto my feet and as soon as I did it was back to the floor again. I gassed out, I was angry and spent, I wanted to fight back, I wanted to hurt him because he pissed me off. No matter what I did though nothing worked, it was like drowning.

Nothing I did made it any better and just made it worse on myself. Finally he stopped, and he asked me "Was that a fair fight?" I told him "no it wasn't" he said "oh really!? Why isn't it fair?" 

I said "because you're a better fighter." He said "so if you don't like that why are you doing that to other people, when you should know better than that?" I didn't know what to say. So he shouted again, "why are you picking fights with people weaker than you?" 

I explained to him I didn't do that, then he said "ok, call me a chicken, call me some names and see what I'll do." I did and he said "So what. I don't care. See how easy that is?" Then he got close to me and said "Words do nothing, honor and pride are things you don't understand, things you shouldn't bother with. Right now all they are going to do is get you killed." 

I nodded. He told me that if I wish to continue I can never get in fights again unless my life depends on it. No sparring with idiots at the gym or in its parking lot, and no fights with relatives or anyone. 

When he feels I am more mature as he put it, he will give me back the gi jacket. Until then I have to either use just a t shirt or my old gi, but hey at least on the bright side my old gi has no sleeves and looks awesome.

I am honestly thankful I am still allowed to go back after all that. That was pretty scary and I've never experienced something like that before. It was pretty embarrassing too, luckily though he did it on a day only a couple of people showed up to class.


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 21, 2016)

So how is your perspective these days about fighting?


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## Ironbear24 (Jun 21, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> So how is your perspective these days about fighting?



It is fun to do but has consequences outside of the obvious ones such as getting hurt or hurting others. It gives you a bad image that negatively impacts how others feel about you.

I still don't feel the sparring at the gym was wrong, we both agreed to it but then again that wasn't the time or place for that as it made everyone who saw it uncomfortable. Which is why we were told to stop or be banned from the gym.

Plus now I can't help but feel that eyes are everywhere and if I hit somebody unjustifiable Sifu will jump out of a bush and groin kick me or something.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 21, 2016)

Well, now you have a very direct and negative consequence. I retract my possible support of future fights, due to this.

At least you can go sleeveless again. I laughed when reading that part.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 21, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> Plus now I can't help but feel that eyes are everywhere and if I hit somebody unjustifiable Sifu will jump out of a bush and groin kick me or something.



Your perception of this is all wonky.  Let me clarify for you:  if you hit somebody unjustifiably, you CAN GO TO PRISON FOR A LONG TIME.

And even if it was justified, you better be prepared for the possibility that you are prosecuted or the other guy files a civil law suit against you.  Even if you prevail, that will cost you a mint in both money and anxiety-ridden sleepless nights.

Worth it? 
Fighting is ugly, nasty business.


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## Tames D (Jun 21, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> Plus now I can't help but feel that eyes are everywhere and if I hit somebody unjustifiable Sifu will jump out of a bush and groin kick me or something.


I don't think he will do that. But I do think he will ban you from any future training with him. Are you prepared for that?


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## Kenpoguy123 (Jun 21, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> So apparently an anonymous caller told him about "how I beat up a middle aged man who is out of shape." This led to a long talk about fighting and he asked me honestly is this a habit of mine.
> 
> I told him about the other two incidents and he told me to take off the top of my gi and give it back to him. Since he doesnt want the dojos emblem to be associated with me.
> 
> ...




I agree with every word he said and honestly it doesn't seem to have taught you much "I wanted to hurt him because he pissed me off"  that's a bad attitude in itself you don't hurt people who piss you off you ignore them. You hurt people who are trying to hurt you and his attitude of saying I don't care that's what pretty much everyone's been saying to you. I hope this teaches you something.


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## Kickboxer101 (Jun 21, 2016)

Well then looks like you learnt about consequences which we've all been saying to you about. Maybe your uncle phoned him. Another thing is if you wanted to keep it quiet from your school posting about it on a online martial arts forum where anyone can read it wasn't your smartest move either. You don't know if any of the members on here train at your club. Or if they browse this site without an account


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## jks9199 (Jun 21, 2016)

You got off lightly.  Your sifu tried to teach you a lesson, he didn't break any bones or toss you out of class.  You aren't in jail, and you aren't facing significant legal costs to avoid being imprisoned.

I've just read through quite a few of your posts.  Your profile says you're 27.  Meanwhile, you're wanting to prove yourself by beating up an asshat uncle, by letting someone goad you into beating them up at a party, and you've admitted you've got a problem with your temper.  To be blunt: grow up.

Do some reading.  You need to understand the potential legal consequences of fighting someone.  In the one account, where you split the guy's lip and broke his glasses... Here in VA, you could face a felony charge of malicious wounding.  Yes, I did say FELONY.  As in lose your right to vote, to own a gun, have a hell of a time getting a job down the road.  (And that's not even getting into what happens with Bubba's Grey Bar Dance School...)  You're developing a rep, it seems, as a hothead.  People are going to use that against you, if you keep giving them the opportunity.


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## Kenpoguy123 (Jun 21, 2016)

Honestly your lucky you didn't get kicked out of the club oh and btw I think he's going to be even less likely to let you spar now and it seems he was right to not let you in the first after Injuring a younger student. Also you say now you can use a sleeveless gi? Didnt your instructor say you can't wear them? That's a great way to help your cause piss him off by wearing uniform he's told you not to wear already


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## Spinedoc (Jun 21, 2016)

I think this is what I was referring to as the battle inside of you. You are ready to go to war over words, and have a quick temper by your postings. No insults you or dishonors you unless you let them. You need fight your internal battles, which I suspect are being fueled by low self esteem, low self worth, and some elements of depression. UNTIL you win those battles, nothing else you will do matters. 

That's just my 0.02 cents. 

YMMV.


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## Ironbear24 (Jun 21, 2016)

jks9199 said:


> In the one account, where you split the guy's lip and broke his glasses... Here in VA, you could face a felony charge of malicious wounding.



He attacked me first though, even though I kind of egged him on. You know what never mind, I should have just ignored that idiot.

There were girls there and they probably would have thought I am a wuss or something but oh well, I already have one that's better than them.


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## Kenpoguy123 (Jun 21, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> There were girls there and they probably would have thought I am a wuss or something



*facepalm* that's the whole point we're all saying and your instructor *so what? *Did those girls think you were cooler for doing what you did? Did you get anywhere with them because of it?


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## Ironbear24 (Jun 21, 2016)

Kenpoguy123 said:


> *facepalm* that's the whole point we're all saying and your instructor *so what? *Did those girls think you were cooler for doing what you did? Did you get anywhere with them because of it?



You missed the part where I said "oh well I have one anyway." Meaning I have a gf already, so it doesn't matter what they think.


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## Kenpoguy123 (Jun 21, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> You missed the part where I said "oh well I have one anyway." Meaning I have a gf already, so it doesn't matter what they think.


No because the fact you said it meant you had that thought on your mind when it happened plus you've talked about impressing girls before so it shows that motivates you a lot to do what you've done


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## Ironbear24 (Jun 21, 2016)

Kenpoguy123 said:


> No because the fact you said it meant you had that thought on your mind when it happened plus you've talked about impressing girls before so it shows that motivates you a lot to do what you've done



Ok, After todays incident I know I need to find other ways to impress them.


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## Kenpoguy123 (Jun 21, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> Ok, After todays incident I know I need to find other ways to impress them.


Man...like you said....you've got a girlfriend you don't need to impress them. Anyway I thought you didn't care about your girlfriend


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## Ironbear24 (Jun 21, 2016)

Kenpoguy123 said:


> Man...like you said....you've got a girlfriend you don't need to impress them. Anyway I thought you didn't care about your girlfriend



To make a long story short she was mad I was spending too much time training and bit enough time with her, so we came to a compromise.


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## Kenpoguy123 (Jun 21, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> To make a long story short she was mad I was spending too much time training and bit enough time with her, so we came to a compromise.


Yeah but the fact you said I don't care what she thinks if she dumps me I wouldn't care is warning signs if you think that way


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## Ironbear24 (Jun 21, 2016)

Kenpoguy123 said:


> Yeah but the fact you said I don't care what she thinks if she dumps me I wouldn't care is warning signs if you think that way



If I didn't care I wouldn't have compromised to spend more time together.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jun 21, 2016)

Wow.

I believe you about someone calling your instructor. Someone has called mine too, to tell on me for something I posted here, and I'm 55 years old. Amazing how entitled some people feel. I've also had them figure where I work and call my boss, but not from this forum; it was a long time ago.

As to the rest of it, it reads like a dime novel. Entertaining, but...really?


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## Ironbear24 (Jun 21, 2016)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Wow.
> 
> I believe you about someone calling your instructor. Someone has called mine too, to tell on me for something I posted here, and I'm 55 years old. Amazing how entitled some people feel. I've also had them figure where I work and call my boss, but not from this forum; it was a long time ago.
> 
> As to the rest of it, it reads like a dime novel. Entertaining, but...really?



Wow. Some people are really something. I am no Steven king or M.night Shamylan. Sorry if it kind of was meh.


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## Tames D (Jun 21, 2016)

No offense Ironbear, but you are the type of guy I avoid these days when I'm at a public function or event. I'm older now and I've learned to walk away.


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## Ironbear24 (Jun 21, 2016)

Tames D said:


> No offense Ironbear, but you are the type of guy I avoid these days when I'm at a public function or event. I'm older now and I've learned to walk away.



I'm sorry you feel that way. No offense was taken.


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## jks9199 (Jun 21, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> He attacked me first though, even though I kind of egged him on. You know what never mind, I should have just ignored that idiot.
> 
> There were girls there and they probably would have thought I am a wuss or something but oh well, I already have one that's better than them.


Yep -- YOU egged him on.  YOU had opportunities to retreat and to leave the scene.  YOU did sufficient damage to draw blood, break his glasses...  and that's enough, in VA, to qualify for malicious wounding.  Is it likely given all the circumstances?  Probably not -- unless someone pushes it, or it's the 2nd or 3rd time the cop's responded to your "self defense" after creating the mess, or you otherwise have a reputation of being a hot head and trouble maker.

"There were girls..."  Those words alone tell me who was in the driver seat during the exchange.  And those words have probably been second only to "hey, hold my beer a second" for leading to trouble through history...


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 21, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> So apparently an anonymous caller told him about "how I beat up a middle aged man who is out of shape." This led to a long talk about fighting and he asked me honestly is this a habit of mine.



Good for him.



> I told him about the other two incidents and he told me to take off the top of my gi and give it back to him. Since he doesnt want the dojos emblem to be associated with me.



Again good for him.



> I tried to make my own case and explain to him but he just wouldn't hear it. He didn't even let me finish talking so I tried talking over him to get a word in and that just annoyed him.



You do not have a case to make. You behaved like a giant douchenozzle.



> So he said if you want it back, spar me for it. Obviously I was reluctant to do that because he is better than I am, I foolishly agreed to it. It turned out pretty bad for me, I got lots of bruises on my body and eventually I balled up when I got tossed to the floor to try and stop his strikes.



So, basically, you are just a bully. You're quick to hurt others, but back down quick when it's your butt that is about to get whupped.


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## Ironbear24 (Jun 21, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> So, basically, you are just a bully. You're quick to hurt others, but back down quick when it's your butt that is about to get whupped.



Its not like I was taking candy from children or beating up old grannies for their purses. I get that I did wrong here but cmon, I feel like you are given me just a little too much heat here.

I lasted an entire 15 something seconds, I got whooped on, I will admit it. At least I lasted the 15 seconds though, glass half full attitude right?


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 22, 2016)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Wow.
> 
> I believe you about someone calling your instructor. Someone has called mine too, to tell on me for something I posted here, and I'm 55 years old. Amazing how entitled some people feel. I've also had them figure where I work and call my boss, but not from this forum; it was a long time ago.
> 
> As to the rest of it, it reads like a dime novel. Entertaining, but...really?


lol... I always mind my post, not because I'm scared that it'll get back to my Sifu, but it's because I know it will get back to him lol  Not only my Sifu but also to another Sifu from another school.

That and my signature makes it easy for things to get back to them. lol.


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 22, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> Its not like I was taking candy from children or beating up old grannies for their purses. I get that I did wrong here but cmon, I feel like you are given me just a little too much heat here.
> 
> I lasted an entire 15 something seconds, I got whooped on, I will admit it. At least I lasted the 15 seconds though, glass half full attitude right?


Nah.. your glass was almost empty.. That was 15 seconds of him teaching you a lesson and not 15 seconds of him fighting you with the same intensity that is used in self-defense.  Totally different.


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## Ironbear24 (Jun 22, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> Nah.. your glass was almost empty.. That was 15 seconds of him teaching you a lesson and not 15 seconds of him fighting you with the same intensity that is used in self-defense.  Totally different.



That lesson hurt.


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## Chris Parker (Jun 22, 2016)

Son, the reason you lasted 15 seconds was that he wanted you to last 15 seconds. Get that through your head.

Look, I've avoided posting on your threads, because it would always sound something like this, and I wasn't sure if there was enough evidence before, but now, you've really left little to no doubt whatsoever.

You're a child. Grow the hell up.

Like JKS, I've been reading pretty well all of your posts and threads… and frankly, you have some major issues with your ego and deep seated insecurities. You always want to seem strong, powerful, cool, whatever, but are also always scared that you're not being seen that way. This is then combined with a real entitlement attitude, where you expect everything to always cater for you, and you alone, regardless of anyone else or anyone else's needs. That needs to go immediately. You're not special. You're not even good. You frankly deserve nothing, as you've earned nothing (in terms of accommodation, respect, or similar).

Your behaviour is deplorable, and the fact that you come here to discuss it (seemingly to seek approval and some kind of validation that you were in the right… you weren't) is both immature, and downright stupid. Let's say one of your "sparring fights" leads to someone wanting to press charges against you… there's now a hell of a lot of evidence of your behaviour and attitudes right here… in your own words. Do you really think any prosecutor worth anything won't use these against you? And no, a pseudonym online won't stop anything… someone has already figured out who you are, where you train, and contacted your instructor. Simply from a legal standpoint, you've shot yourself in the foot.

You've had threads about how you don't like the rules of your school… you don't like the rules on who can spar, and who can't, to the point that you whined to your instructor getting them to make an exception for you… then spat in his face by having so little control you injured another (younger, smaller) student. You've complained that you can't wear your own customised uniform (without sleeves, as you wanted to "show off your arms"… dude, get over yourself… your arms aren't really impressive at all, son), because again you wanted to be special and show off what you think is a good feature. You're not special. You're not even good.

Now we've gotten to this point… where things have come to the attention of your instructor. Quite simply, he wasn't happy having his name dragged through the mud by having you associated with him, and set about to teach you a lesson (honestly, I'm not going to call it harsh, as it wasn't from my perspective) by firstly putting you in the position of your victims (and yes, that's what they were), and giving you a taste of what they felt like. This was followed by asking if you understood (apparently, you didn't), and giving you an alternate way to deal with someone who says something you didn't like… which you didn't grasp either. In the end, you're damn lucky to not simply be kicked out of the school (it would certainly be what I would have done)… and you're going to be watched very closely from now on… one step out of line, and you're out, I'd suggest.

But the problem is, you still don't get it. You still don't see what you were taught, and you still don't see what you've been told here since you began. Your entire first post is you basically looking for us to tell you it's alright, you've taken your lumps and it's all good now (it's not), or that your teacher was wrong in how they dealt with you (he wasn't), or that you were good and impressive for lasting like you did (you weren't)… combined with a range of comments that show that you were unable to actually follow what happened, or have the humility to see the error of your ways. 

I'm going to go through your original post, and highlight the problems in your comments… as they are indications of exactly what your problems are:



Ironbear24 said:


> So apparently an anonymous caller told him about "how I beat up a middle aged man who is out of shape." This led to a long talk about fighting and he asked me honestly is this a habit of mine.
> 
> I told him about the other two incidents and he told me to take off the top of my gi and give it back to him. Since he doesnt want the dojos emblem to be associated with me.
> 
> I tried to make my own case and explain to him but he just wouldn't hear it. He didn't even let me finish talking so I tried talking over him to get a word in and that just annoyed him.



So, he tried to talk to you about it, and you wouldn't do him the basic courtesy of listening to him… you, by your own admission, "tried talking over him". Dude. You're a student of mine, and you try that, you find out very quickly that it's one of the worst things you could attempt.



Ironbear24 said:


> So he said if you want it back, spar me for it. Obviously I was reluctant to do that because he is better than I am, I foolishly agreed to it. It turned out pretty bad for me, I got lots of bruises on my body and eventually I balled up when I got tossed to the floor to try and stop his strikes.



You do get that you wouldn't have been beaten up by him if you'd simply listened to what he was saying in the first place, yeah? It wasn't his intention to fight you, it was his intention to get you to think about your behaviour, and take the opportunity to correct it… but you didn't allow that (talking over the top of him). That's why he then took it to sparring… it's seemingly the only language you understand. 



Ironbear24 said:


> He kept telling me "You don't like that do you?" I tried to roll onto my feet and as soon as I did it was back to the floor again. I gassed out, I was angry and spent, I wanted to fight back, I wanted to hurt him because he pissed me off. No matter what I did though nothing worked, it was like drowning.



He's your teacher. He's teaching you. And you wanted to hurt him? Not because he hurt you, but because he pissed you off?!?! Dude, get out of his school right now. You don't deserve him, and he sure as hell doesn't deserve you.



Ironbear24 said:


> Nothing I did made it any better and just made it worse on myself. Finally he stopped, and he asked me "Was that a fair fight?" I told him "no it wasn't" he said "oh really!? Why isn't it fair?"
> 
> I said "because you're a better fighter." He said "so if you don't like that why are you doing that to other people, when you should know better than that?" I didn't know what to say. So he shouted again, "why are you picking fights with people weaker than you?"
> 
> I explained to him I didn't do that, then he said "ok, call me a chicken, call me some names and see what I'll do." I did and he said "So what. I don't care. See how easy that is?" Then he got close to me and said "Words do nothing, honor and pride are things you don't understand, things you shouldn't bother with. Right now all they are going to do is get you killed."



Despite your protestations ("I didn't know that I'd win"), you have universally picked people that you know you can manhandle fairly easily… you've expressed that much. So yes, you are picking fights with people "weaker" than you (or less skilled, more out of shape, whatever). 

And, do you get what lesson he was trying to give you with his last advice there? Really?



Ironbear24 said:


> I nodded. He told me that if I wish to continue I can never get in fights again unless my life depends on it. No sparring with idiots at the gym or in its parking lot, and no fights with relatives or anyone.



Did you nod because you understood, or in order to simply stop the lecture? 



Ironbear24 said:


> When he feels I am more mature as he put it, he will give me back the gi jacket. Until then I have to either use just a t shirt or my old gi, but hey at least on the bright side my old gi has no sleeves and looks awesome.



You're a child. The "bright side" here is that you weren't summarily dismissed from the school (I've seen that happen for far less than your transgressions, son). Wearing your little kids uniform with it's "extra-tuff" sleeveless look, especially when that exact look was not allowed previously, is just you ignoring what actually happened. So yes, you really do need to grow up and become a hell of a lot more mature. I mean, you're 27, dude. Stop acting like a 14 year old.



Ironbear24 said:


> I am honestly thankful I am still allowed to go back after all that. That was pretty scary and I've never experienced something like that before. It was pretty embarrassing too, luckily though he did it on a day only a couple of people showed up to class.



And, again, you're simply focused on how you looked… "lucky there were only a couple of people there"… It's good that you got scared… you should be… but you also need to take the lessons as given to heart… as you've missed them entirely. Do you even get what empathy is?

Frankly, kid, despite my signature, you get no respect from me. You show no respect to anyone else, from your girlfriend to your instructor, to anyone else. My advice would be to leave the school as gracefully as you can, thank your instructor for opening your eyes to your behaviour, and take some real time off to come to terms with just how much of a bully and a jerk you've been to everyone. Martial arts are not your life… feeling powerful and strong is what you're after due to some pretty deep-set insecurities and self esteem issues. That's not what the martial arts are for, or about. Your "obsessive" training regime is not anything to do with you being dedicated to martial arts, it's about you running scared from feelings of inadequacy.

Leave the martial arts, at least until you grow up, and seek some therapy. You need it.


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## The Great Gigsy (Jun 22, 2016)

Based on this incident,  as well some other recent posts. Do you think perhaps it may be wise to step away from training for awhile and work on your temper. Because frankly  from some of the things you've posted you sound like the type who shouldn't be study a martial art. At least not at this stage of your life.


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## Ironbear24 (Jun 22, 2016)

Chris Parker said:


> Son, the reason you lasted 15 seconds was that he wanted you to last 15 seconds. Get that through your head.
> 
> Look, I've avoided posting on your threads, because it would always sound something like this, and I wasn't sure if there was enough evidence before, but now, you've really left little to no doubt whatsoever.
> 
> ...



Look man. I am used to people not liking me, it really means nothing to me. No feelings hurt, nothing off my back. Calling me a kid isn't going to bother me, after all to you, I could very well be a kid and it seems that is the case. 

Lucky for me, what do kids do? They grow up and become adults. I will continue to my martial arts training because I enjoy martial arts and that will help me come into my own as it has before.

I posted this becuase I wanted to admit to the forum that you all were right. I made mistakes and they were made for stupid reasons. If people choose to give me give me flack or act like they are a figurehead of morality then fine, honestly it's a forum and why would I bother even posting anything if I could be offended by different opinions? 

As for the getting angry at my sifu part, I was getting hit pretty hard, that's a natural reaction to get frustrated. In my mind I was thinking "man I'd really like to deck this guy right now." But guess what? I didn't do that for a number of reasons, one because he was in the right and two I asked for it.

Believe it or not I did learn from this, I won't be sparring or fighting wig anyone unless my life or my loved ones are threatened, and I won't spar unless requested to. No more picking sparring matches or fights with people.


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## Chris Parker (Jun 22, 2016)

You should be offended. I'm calling you, an ostensibly grown man of 27, a child. The fact that, whenever anyone says anything like this to you, you respond with "it's all cool, no offence taken" shows that, again, you're doing what you can to preserve your ego, rather than actually hear what you're being told. Yes, children grow up and become adults… but usually some 10 or so years before they're nearing 30.

You've learnt nothing.


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## Ironbear24 (Jun 22, 2016)

Well I don't what to tell you other than I am not offended by it. I've honesty been called worse things before so to me it's like water off my back.


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## Chris Parker (Jun 22, 2016)

That's part of your problem. You're not listening to what you're being told. I'm not telling you you should be angry with me… I'm saying that this is the way you present yourself, the way you come across, and the way you are… the fact that you're told that by myself, and others (and worse, apparently), combined with the fact that you seem to have the same recurring problems, should (at some point) start to lead you to some introspection… in other words, if you're being told this by your instructor, people on the forum, and more, then you should be looking at yourself and seeing that yes, you are acting like a child.

You should be offended by yourself. You should be angry with yourself. You should be frustrated with yourself. And you should use this as a wakeup call to actually do something about it… otherwise you're always going to be this kid that no-one respects, no-one wants to deal with, and no-one thinks is anything of value.

You've learnt nothing.


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## Ironbear24 (Jun 22, 2016)

What is getting angry about it going to solve? I know I have problems and I am working on them. It isn't going to happen over a few minutes though.


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## Chris Parker (Jun 22, 2016)

You're not getting it. What getting upset about it would show is that it has affected you emotionally (internally)… if you "shake it off", then you haven't actually taken it on board. So, no, I don't think you do get what your problems are, or what would need to be done in order to work on them… as frankly, this behaviour is a form of denial over them in the first place.

This is why I can say you've learnt nothing, as you're not allowing yourself to learn anything.


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## Ironbear24 (Jun 22, 2016)

I do know what my problems are. I constantly feel like what I do is never good enough, that's low self-esteem. I constantly seek positive reinforcement from others to help my self esteem problem. (Hence the sparring and fights) 

My ego is large and at the same time fragile, I constantly do things to make people think I am strong and tough. Things such as lift weights, during the busiest gym hours so the more people can see how strong I am. I work out on the heavy bag when there are many people in there for the same reasons. 

As a result of the ego problem which stems from low self esteem I give people too much power over me. They can basically influence how I feel by calling me weak ect. In short I care way too much about what other people think regarding my abilities when I shouldn't care at all. 

Pretty much everything I do is for other people's opinions and first impressions. Wearing tight shirts, wearing sleeveless shirts, flexing too much. The things I do should not be for other people but for myself. 

Fight with my uncle and beat him in a Judo match in front of my family, key term, in front of family. If they weren't there at all I probably wouldn't even had done it in the first place. Get in a fight with some douche a party, again, probably would have done nothing if it didn't threaten my ego which must be enormously awesome. 

I get it, if you don't believe I get it simply because I am not angry, then I don't know what to tell you.


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## Chris Parker (Jun 22, 2016)

You don't get it. You're parroting what you've been told, but you haven't taken any of it on board. You're like an obese individual saying they know they have a problem as they shovel the fifth cake into their face today. You have a surface understanding, but no deeper. This is why you're not getting angry about this, but do get angry about other things. It's why I can say that you really don't get it, as you don't. 

And I get that you don't know what to tell me… it's because you haven't internalised it yet… so you don't see the difference between your list of your issues (as well as the list of some basic manifestations… which you needed to have pointed out to you) and the reality of them as actual problems. At the moment, all you see as a problem is that you don't feel as good as you want to… but that's not the actual problem. The problem is a lot deeper than that… which is why I'm advising to get out of martial arts for a while (all they're doing is acting as a support for your problems… same as the gym… because, if you can feel powerful and worthwhile with that, it makes up for the actual lack of value you see in yourself), and seek therapy.

You're nowhere near understanding your problems yet.


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## Ironbear24 (Jun 22, 2016)

I don't have time to just stop, all that time I am doing nothing I could be doing something to advance myself in martial arts. I want to become something big and quitting will do nothing to lead me toward that goal.


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## Chris Parker (Jun 22, 2016)

Do you see what you said there? You're still focused on "becoming something big"…. whatever that means… and frankly, you're never going to get there. It's still an external validation, which is the real issue here… you have no sense of internal validation at all. Taking time off to actually address that will mean that, when you come back to martial arts, you can approach them properly. 

And, really, you don't have time to not do what you're doing? Does that even make sense to you? Not having time to lessen your schedule? Huh?


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## Ironbear24 (Jun 22, 2016)

There are people out there who have been training literally since the age of 5. I have a lot of time to make for.


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## Chris Parker (Jun 22, 2016)

No, you don't. You're not them. You're not in a race. There is no "end point". And frankly, dude, with your issues, you could have started at the age of 3 and you'd never catch them.


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 22, 2016)

Chris Parker said:


> No, you don't. You're not them. You're not in a race. There is no "end point". And frankly, dude, with your issues, you could have started at the age of 3 and you'd never catch them.


 I have to strongly agree with not being in a race.  The one thing I always try to get students to understand is to

1. Not compare themselves to other students
2. It's not a race, train at your own pace.

I don't like a lot of "Zen" and "personal development" talk when it comes to Martial arts but the truth is that there is quite a bit of personal development that goes on when training martial arts. It's one of the most selfish activities a person can do because it should be all about your development.  At the same time it's also one of the most giving activities a person can do because once you (you in general) understand your own development you begin to see how important it is to help others develop as well.

I care more about being better than I was a month ago then about being better than someone else.  If you (you in general) make your training based on someone else's performance then you'll run the risk of failing at your own performance.


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## Kenpoguy123 (Jun 22, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> There are people out there who have been training literally since the age of 5. I have a lot of time to make for.


Why so you can beat those people? Time means nothing there are people who start martial arts in their 70s honesty you've been traininh since you were a teenager but your attitude is still like a 10 year old beginner lets be honest you're not going to be a professional fighter you don't train at a fight school and despite all your gym work your out of shape and only lasted 15 seconds In a sparring match. Plus you shouldn't be a fighter if your ego grows even more these things will only get worse you'll have the "do you know who I am " mentality and that's even worse if your famous as people will constantly challenge, you're most likely not going to be something, the majority of martial arts experts aren't that famous they're known in their circles but that's it. Do you think any of us on this board are anything big despite training for years and years no we're not. Martial arts isn't about being famous it's about bettering yourself.

But in the end of the day you've had all the advice anyone can give and your attitude still sucks I'm very confident you'll get into more fights and I know if I probably said this to your face you'd get angry and try and fight me right now especially If some girls were there. Maybe you should just stick to weights and keep martial arts out of your life.

Here's your thing sometimes you act like a respectful martial artist saying you'll learn from anything then you're telling us you get into a fight because someone says karate sucks it feels like your respect stuff on here is just an act for us to approve you.


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## Ironbear24 (Jun 22, 2016)

I wouldn't fight you over that. I'd be disappointed but fighting you over that would just be me proving you are right about me.


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## Tez3 (Jun 22, 2016)

I think the title of the thread should probably 'Sifu is a very disappointed and frustrated man', I feel for him to be honest. He is obviously someone who cares for you, who wanted you to learn and grow yet you have disappointed him badly. _He thinks you can be a better person._
He could have thrown you out without another word yet he's taken time to try to teach you but you made him spar with you, something I think he would rather have not done and still that hasn't worked. That man must have the patience of a saint, please don't disappoint him again, he's gold in a world of dross.


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## Kenpoguy123 (Jun 22, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> I wouldn't fight you over that. I'd be disappointed but fighting you over that would just be me proving you are right about me.


I don't believe it because you've had 2 fights over saying martiwl arts suck nothing even personal just martial arts in general and another one because you felt disrespected so yes I think you would want to fight me. I mean it'd never happen I've got enough common sense to awake from stupid situations like that


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## Tez3 (Jun 22, 2016)

Oh and if you really want to impress girls...make them laugh and listen to them. Muscles and 'strongman' poses turn women off because it shows that a man is too much in love with himself to have time for a woman and that he spends too much time in the gym doing that loving. Trust me I know.


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## MAfreak (Jun 22, 2016)

i told you so.
btw i still don't get how "sifu" and "gi" fits together.


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 22, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> Its not like I was taking candy from children or beating up old grannies for their purses. I get that I did wrong here but cmon, I feel like you are given me just a little too much heat here.
> 
> I lasted an entire 15 something seconds, I got whooped on, I will admit it. At least I lasted the 15 seconds though, glass half full attitude right?



I'd say you're not getting near as much heat as you deserve, and you're certainly not showing anything remotely resembling maturity.
Your maturity glass is pretty much empty, and it's clear you've learned nothing.


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## drop bear (Jun 22, 2016)

Obviously the lesson is more cardio. No go do hill sprints.


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 22, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> I wouldn't fight you over that. I'd be disappointed but fighting you over that would just be me proving you are right about me.



Bullies never want to fight people who can beat them. Bullies prey on those weaker than them.


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## Buka (Jun 22, 2016)

Ironbear, my brother, it would be easy to read and gloss over some of the things said. But look at it this way.....people you've never met, experienced, respected Martial Artists like Chris and Dirty Dog and JKS and Tez have taken the time to read things you've written, and taken even more time to respond with caring advice, same advice as your Sifu. You need to bookmark and go over that advice, because while seeming harsh, it comes from the heart.

We all have issues, we all work on them. I hope you do, too. 

(and I hope your old sleeveless gi falls apart in the wash)


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## zanaffar (Jun 22, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Oh and if you really want to impress girls...make them laugh and listen to them. Muscles and 'strongman' poses turn women off because it shows that a man is too much in love with himself to have time for a woman and that he spends too much time in the gym doing that loving. Trust me I know.


Easy with that swole hate, bro! Our biggest muscle is still... our heart.


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## Tez3 (Jun 22, 2016)

zanaffar said:


> Easy with that swole hate, bro! Our biggest muscle is still... our heart.



I don't know what 'swole' is. There's also no 'us' and I'm not your 'bro'.


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## Spinedoc (Jun 22, 2016)

Chris Parker said:


> No, you don't. You're not them. You're not in a race. There is no "end point". And frankly, dude, with your issues, you could have started at the age of 3 and you'd never catch them.



Agreed with this. Listen, Ironbear, this is what I was trying to say in my earlier post. UNTIL you have faced your personal demons and won that internal battle….knowing EXACTLY who you are, and being completely comfortable with who you are, any external battles are pointless. 

If I were you, I would go to my sifu, and let him know this…..it sounds like he cares for you and is likely willing to help you……I would beg for forgiveness, and then work hard on YOURSELF for a while. 

Forget about any race. There is no such thing in the martial arts….


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## donald1 (Jun 22, 2016)

You said you didnt beat this man up. If thats true than there is a trust issue between you and your instructor. Considering an anonymous person can make a phone call and he automatically assumes your at blame. Im speechless,  especially with his means of trying to teaching lessons. I personally would expect more from an instructor.  Its important to use your words. Not challenge your students to fights they dont stand a chance of winning.


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## Kenpoguy123 (Jun 22, 2016)

donald1 said:


> You said you didnt beat this man up. If thats true than there is a trust issue between you and your instructor. Considering an anonymous person can make a phone call and he automatically assumes your at blame. Im speechless,  especially with his means of trying to teaching lessons. I personally would expect more from an instructor.  Its important to use your words. Not challenge your students to fights they dont stand a chance of winning.


His instructor did try to talk but ironbear kept talking over him that's why he challenged him because he wouldn't have listened to words


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## Tortoise (Jun 22, 2016)

Ironbear, your girlfriend, who knows you, thinks you need to back off the martial arts.  Martial artists in this forum are telling you to back off the martial arts.  Maybe you should take a step back from the martial arts.

I have over a decade of martial arts training.  No black belt.  No trophies.  No fights to brag about.  However, I am still training.  Years ago, a black belt told me, "The brightest flames go out the quickest.  You are like the little burning ember that just won't quit."

I have come across people who get to obsessed with their training that it drives them crazy.  Is it possible this might be happening with you?  They eventually end up quitting because they realize that they can't sleep and are frustrated and depressed all the time because they have become so obsessed with it.  The constant frustration does lead to having a bit of a temper, also.

Are you the person who said they do not have a car so cannot change studios?  If so, can you work on whatever obstacle is preventing you from getting a car and the option of going to a studio more suited to your goals?  Apologize if whatever obstacle is not something that can be overcome (like legal blindness - I did I train with an exceptionally talented martial artist who was legally blind.  He was so accurate, it defied logic).

Take a step back.  It is a marathon not a sprint.  Don't burn yourself out.  Cut down to 1-2 times per week, at least for a while.  Agree that you need to put the sparring on hold until you get better control of your temper.  If you break your sparring partners, there will be no on left to play with.  You could become that person who shows up for sparring, and everyone goes home.


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## Hanzou (Jun 22, 2016)

Iron bear, does your style offer competition?

Maybe competing in a MA tournament will help you?


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## Kenpoguy123 (Jun 22, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> Iron bear, does your style offer competition?
> 
> Maybe competing in a MA tournament will help you?


Competition would just raise his ego even more IMO and make him more likely to get in fights with the whole do you know I am mentality. It's his attitude that needs changing not his training. His instructors obviously a decent person who tries to make his students act with decency and honour I think that's exactly what he needs


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## Tez3 (Jun 22, 2016)

donald1 said:


> You said you didnt beat this man up. If thats true than there is a trust issue between you and your instructor. Considering an anonymous person can make a phone call and he automatically assumes your at blame. Im speechless,  especially with his means of trying to teaching lessons. I personally would expect more from an instructor.  Its important to use your words. Not challenge your students to fights they dont stand a chance of winning.



There is a trust issue but not how you think, Ironbear has acquired, by his own admission, a reputation for brawling which amuses him, the instructor who most likely knows this and has also seen him beat up someone in the class, has tried to talk to him, Ironbear again by his own admission didn't listen and talked over him, so the instructor did what I imagine saddened him to do, he wanted him to learn a lesson by sparring, well he tried but Ironbear again has failed to learn. The instructor tried to talk to him, we have but he seems doomed to spiral into his own world of brawling, bullying and eventually I imagine prison or at least a criminal record. You need to read what is posted and not jump to conclusions.


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## RTKDCMB (Jun 22, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> I want to become something big and quitting will do nothing to lead me toward that goal.


Having a break will allow you to work on your issues that are currently holding you back. This will help you in your goals rather than going forward with things the way they are.


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## RTKDCMB (Jun 22, 2016)

donald1 said:


> Considering an anonymous person can make a phone call and he automatically assumes your at blame


If the instructor automatically assumes he is at blame when an anonymous person makes a phone call then it may just be for a very good reason.


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## Flatfish (Jun 22, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> I don't know what 'swole' is. There's also no 'us' and I'm not your 'bro'.




Let me try to help out:

"Swole" is part of the language of a certain subspecies of male gym dwellers in the US, commonly referred to as "Bros" or "Brahs". Since you are linguistically inclined, to the best of my knowledge the term "swole" derives from being swollen aka "pumped up" after lifting weights.

As for the Bro subspecies, some commonly found characteristics are:

-skinny legs, because leg day sucks
-doing curls in the squat rack because one cannot be bothered to bend down and pick the weight off the floor.
-dropping weights from hip or shoulder height to the floor because one is so swole from the exertion that one cannot be bothered to bend down to lower them.
-loading huge amounts of weight onto the bar so the exercise requires a spotter. The spotter is expected to lift at least 67.5% of the weight.
-once the weight is sucessfully lifted in such manner, Bros engage in a testosterone fueled celebration ritual that involves grunts, screams, fist pumps, chest bumps.....and elicits head shakes from female gym dwellers which are taken as signs of admiration.


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## Kenpoguy123 (Jun 22, 2016)

It's also lucky your sifu doesn't know about you commenting on videos of people practicing saying you could take them easily and wishing you could fight them


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 22, 2016)

He can work out his issues while training.  Train


RTKDCMB said:


> If the instructor automatically assumes he is at blame when an anonymous person makes a phone call then it may just be for a very good reason.


Instructors usually know their students well enough to have an idea of who is most likely to get into fights, who has anger issues, bully issues, and who is afraid to be in a fight.  If someone called my Sifu and made the statement that one of his students was a "sneaky fighter," my Sifu would know right away who they were referring to. He wouldn't need a name or description to guess who they are talking about.

People would be surprised at how well instructors know their student's personalities.


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## Ironbear24 (Jun 22, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> Iron bear, does your style offer competition?
> 
> Maybe competing in a MA tournament will help you?



It does. I need the school uniform to compete in it though, so I need to get that back before I worry about that.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 22, 2016)

It would be Interesting if his instructor came on and started reading his posts here.  This one in particular...


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## Ironbear24 (Jun 22, 2016)

Flatfish said:


> Let me try to help out:
> 
> "Swole" is part of the language of a certain subspecies of male gym dwellers in the US, commonly referred to as "Bros" or "Brahs". Since you are linguistically inclined, to the best of my knowledge the term "swole" derives from being swollen aka "pumped up" after lifting weights.
> 
> ...



Pretty much all of that is me aside from the spotter part. It does me no good if the other guy is doing most of the work. My legs aren't skinny but they don't match the rest of me because leg day does suck. Leg day means anything and everything such as standing, walking, will hurt after the workout. Sitting down to use the restroom after leg day is a really humbling experience.


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## Kickboxer101 (Jun 22, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> It does. I need the school uniform to compete in it though, so I need to get that back before I worry about that.


Man even if your instructor allows you to compete and represent his school in competition (which I seriously doubt he will) you should step up and just no you shouldn't compete because look Imagine your in the ring you're getting a beating the crowds cheering for the other person you're embarrassed about losing in front of everyone you'll get angry make mistakes may end up using illegal moves which disrespects your instructor even more or the ref makes a call you don't agree with you argue with him about it and get aggressive so he takes a point from you. With your anger and ego issues you could end up punching the referee which in competition is the worst thing you can do. The last thing you need is competition in any area no matter if it's point fighting, boxing, kickboxing or mma you shouldn't be doing If until your personal issues are sorted and control yourself better.


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## Ironbear24 (Jun 22, 2016)

Kickboxer101 said:


> Man even if your instructor allows you to compete and represent his school in competition (which I seriously doubt he will) you should step up and just no you shouldn't compete because look Imagine your in the ring you're getting a beating the crowds cheering for the other person you're embarrassed about losing in front of everyone you'll get angry make mistakes may end up using illegal moves which disrespects your instructor even more or the ref makes a call you don't agree with you argue with him about it and get aggressive so he takes a point from you. With your anger and ego issues you could end up punching the referee which in competition is the worst thing you can do. The last thing you need is competition in any area no matter if it's point fighting, boxing, kickboxing or mma you shouldn't be doing If until your personal issues are sorted and control yourself better.



If there is a competition anytime soon, I wouldn't be allowed to go right now anyway. This time could be spent on working on those problems.


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## Kenpoguy123 (Jun 22, 2016)

Also I'd like to ask a question a bit off topic but you do shou shu yeah would you say this is similar to what I'm just genuinely curious here


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## Ironbear24 (Jun 22, 2016)

Kenpoguy123 said:


> Also I'd like to ask a question a bit off topic but you do shou shu yeah would you say this is similar to what I'm just genuinely curious here



There is a lot less choreography and less new age rock but yes. It's a lot like that, more emphasis on low kicks though.


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## Tez3 (Jun 22, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> Pretty much all of that is me aside from the spotter part. It does me no good if the other guy is doing most of the work. My legs aren't skinny but they don't match the rest of me because leg day does suck. Leg day means anything and everything such as standing, walking, will hurt after the workout. Sitting down to use the restroom after leg day is a really humbling experience.



Nothing like me at all, I have curves.


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## Flatfish (Jun 22, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> Pretty much all of that is me aside from the spotter part. It does me no good if the other guy is doing most of the work. My legs aren't skinny but they don't match the rest of me because leg day does suck. Leg day means anything and everything such as standing, walking, will hurt after the workout. Sitting down to use the restroom after leg day is a really humbling experience.




I hope you know I wasn't talking about you with my explanation. I have no idea how you conduct yourself in the gym. But the word "swole" alone ( makes me cringe every time I hear or see it ) conjures up the images of the "Bros"....shudder


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## Kenpoguy123 (Jun 22, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> There is a lot less choreography and less new age rock but yes. It's a lot like that, more emphasis on low kicks though.


Well but that was a public demonstration so there's going to be choreography but you say you wanted kenpo that is a variation of kenpo because I definentely saw the techique grip of death in there


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## Tez3 (Jun 22, 2016)

Flatfish said:


> I hope you know I wasn't talking about you with my explanation. I have no idea how you conduct yourself in the gym. But the word "swole" alone ( makes me cringe every time I hear or see it ) conjures up the images of the "Bros"....shudder



Don't worry lol I know you weren't talking about me, there is absolutely no way anyone could mistake me for anyone other than me. The gym I go to is a small country one, there's some lads in there but quite honestly most of the 'muscle' men around our way get their muscles from chucking hay bales around, tramping through the Dales, picking up sheep etc. the idea of 'bros' would make people laugh themselves silly here.


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## Ironbear24 (Jun 22, 2016)

Flatfish said:


> I hope you know I wasn't talking about you with my explanation. I have no idea how you conduct yourself in the gym. But the word "swole" alone ( makes me cringe every time I hear or see it ) conjures up the images of the "Bros"....shudder



Brb, donating all my skin tight shirts.


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## Tez3 (Jun 22, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> Brb, donating all my skin tight shirts.



A good looking lad is fine as arm candy and a shag now and again but women prefer a partner who they can laugh with, who makes them feel comfortable and who shares interests. A braggart and show off who is talking to a woman with his eyes wandering to see who else is looking at him, who also goes off on one when someone says something he doesn't like is not the partner anyone wants. I'll tell you why that last is important... if you beat up an 'annoying' relative, a fellow student you think is stupid etc the thought will always be *'when is he going to hit me'*? You can protest as much as you like that you wouldn't hit a woman but then you may have also said you would never beat up an old man or a weaker smaller person. Do you see where this is going? You are untrustworthy, your Sifu sees this, we see this and if you don't you need to look into yourself and really lay your soul bare. You are young, there's hope, but please listen to your instructor, listen with your ears open and your ego left outside. People have been far kinder on here than you deserve but perhaps we all remember times we've been stupid and a good person often a martial artist has put us on the right path so forget the muscles, the braggadocio, the inferiority complex and be a real person. You have arms and legs, a brain and are alive, you have everything you need, sort yourself out.


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 22, 2016)

From angry sifu to how to impress women. Which topic will I choose.


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## Ironbear24 (Jun 22, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> From angry sifu to how to impress women. Which topic will I choose.



Idk but I don't want to end up like one of those abusive guys on the lifetime movie network. My gf would probably take secret jiu jitsu classes to kimura me into the end credits.


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## jks9199 (Jun 22, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> I don't have time to just stop, all that time I am doing nothing I could be doing something to advance myself in martial arts. I want to become something big and quitting will do nothing to lead me toward that goal.


Perhaps addressing your emotional issues would advance your training,  even more than the same hours spent in the training hall...  because somehow,  I suspect that you don't always listen well to your instructor.   I learned a long time ago that the key to learning is to listen and follow directions. 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## Tez3 (Jun 23, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> From angry sifu to how to impress women. Which topic will I choose.



You are wrong, it's not about 'how to impress girls' at all, it's how to be a decent human being.


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## JR 137 (Jun 23, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> You are wrong, it's not about 'how to impress girls' at all, it's how to be a decent human being.



I think you got him wrong here.  Not that JowGaWolf needs me or anyone else to defend his words, but I'm pretty sure he meant which one of the many issues should he address first.  At least that's how I interpreted it.


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## Tez3 (Jun 23, 2016)

JR 137 said:


> I think you got him wrong here.  Not that JowGaWolf needs me or anyone else to defend his words, but I'm pretty sure he meant which one of the many issues should he address first.  At least that's how I interpreted it.



Impressing girls should never be taken as being an 'issue' to address rather it should be something one doesn't try to do!


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## mograph (Jun 23, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Impressing girls should never be taken as being an 'issue' to address rather it should be something one doesn't try to do!


Could it be argued that "impressing girls" doesn't work, because the girls see it as a scattershot or off-the-rack approach. However, attempting to _custom_-impress one girl, by actually getting to know her and her specific preferences, might have some traction?

... assuming she already thinks you're a decent sort, and not a creep?


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 23, 2016)

JR 137 said:


> I think you got him wrong here.  Not that JowGaWolf needs me or anyone else to defend his words, but I'm pretty sure he meant which one of the many issues should he address first.  At least that's how I interpreted it.


Correct.


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## JR 137 (Jun 23, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Impressing girls should never be taken as being an 'issue' to address rather it should be something one doesn't try to do!



Agreed.  But it's unfortunately one that is being addressed here, for obvious reasons.


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 23, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> You are wrong, it's not about 'how to impress girls' at all, it's how to be a decent human being.


Lol you just wanted to disagree with me. Even animals try to impress their mates with how they look physically.  Humans are no different. As for being a decent human that's not something a person becomes, it's something a person strives to be. It requires constant work and many of us if not all of us have failed at this either by our actions or lack of action. Most of us if not all of us have had thoughts and emotions that wouldn't be considered as being a decent human.

I have yet to meet a decent human being but I've met many people who strive to be decent.


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 23, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Impressing girls should never be taken as being an 'issue' to address rather it should be something one doesn't try to do!


 wrong wrong wrong lol.  You get 100 disagrees for that one statement. Attracting women is an issue dealing with women after men marry them is an issue too. Lol.  If a person has a boyfriend, girlfriend, husband, or wife then they got issues lol


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## Tez3 (Jun 23, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> wrong wrong wrong lol.  You get 100 disagrees for that one statement. Attracting women is an issue dealing with women after men marry them is an issue too. Lol.  If a person has a boyfriend, girlfriend, husband, or wife then they got issues lol



No. One simply impresses people or one doesn't. One doesn't _try_.


Actually I think you misunderstood my post, my post ie *my words* weren't about attracting girls though the OPs may have been, mine weren't. *As I know what I meant by my words* you can't disagree with them. You can disagree that the issue is about attracting women or not but that is a different thing.


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## Kenpoguy123 (Jun 23, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> Lol you just wanted to disagree with me. Even animals try to impress their mates with how they look physically.  Humans are no different. As for being a decent human that's not something a person becomes, it's something a person strives to be. It requires constant work and many of us if not all of us have failed at this either by our actions or lack of action. Most of us if not all of us have had thoughts and emotions that wouldn't be considered as being a decent human.
> 
> I have yet to meet a decent human being but I've met many people who strive to be decent.


Yes animals do but I thought humans were a bit more advanced than animals or maybe I got that wrong. Should we also eat our young and abandon them on a street because animals do that as well you know


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## Tez3 (Jun 23, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> Lol you just wanted to disagree with me. Even animals try to impress their mates with how they look physically.  Humans are no different. As for being a decent human that's not something a person becomes, it's something a person strives to be. It requires constant work and many of us if not all of us have failed at this either by our actions or lack of action. Most of us if not all of us have had thoughts and emotions that wouldn't be considered as being a decent human.
> 
> I have yet to meet a decent human being but I've met many people who strive to be decent.



As I said though I wasn't talking about attracting women my point was solely about being a decent human being or trying to be if you prefer that.


----------



## Steve (Jun 23, 2016)

Nothing wrong with trying to be a decent human being.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jun 23, 2016)

This



Ironbear24 said:


> I do know what my problems are. I constantly feel like what I do is never good enough, that's low self-esteem. I constantly seek positive reinforcement from others to help my self esteem problem. (Hence the sparring and fights)
> 
> My ego is large and at the same time fragile, I constantly do things to make people think I am strong and tough. Things such as lift weights, during the busiest gym hours so the more people can see how strong I am. I work out on the heavy bag when there are many people in there for the same reasons.
> 
> ...



Doesn't exactly match this



Ironbear24 said:


> I don't have time to just stop, all that time I am doing nothing I could be doing something to advance myself in martial arts. I want to become something big and quitting will do nothing to lead me toward that goal.



Bottom-line...you want to continue training with your current shifu....or any true martial arts teacher for that matter.....quit your whining and your verbal posturing, take it seriously...and  then listen to your shifu, man up, shut up and train.

And, for the record.... MMA vs TMA has nothing to do with it.. I know a local MMA gym owner/trainer/teacher who likely would have kicked you for that you did too. However I am not sure he would have given you any avenue back.

Beyond that what jks says here makes a lot of sense as it applies to the two above posts of your that I quoted



jks9199 said:


> Perhaps addressing your emotional issues would advance your training,  even more than the same hours spent in the training hall...  because somehow,  I suspect that you don't always listen well to your instructor.   I learned a long time ago that the key to learning is to listen and follow directions.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


----------



## Spinedoc (Jun 23, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> And, for the record.... MMA vs TMA has nothing to do with it.. I know a local MMA gym owner/trainer/teacher who likely would have kicked you for that you did too. However I am not sure he would have given you any avenue back.



I guarantee my BJJ coach would have kicked you out, he's already removed several people who were more interested in fighting than practicing....he simply won't tolerate it..


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 23, 2016)

Spinedoc said:


> I guarantee my BJJ coach would have kicked you out, he's already removed several people who were more interested in fighting than practicing....he simply won't tolerate it..



I can't think of many who would give someone who was more interested in brawling a second chance. MMA and boxing gyms want to turn out competitors who are disciplined in their training, they don't want brawlers. MMA might be about fighting but not in the way the OP approaches it.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jun 23, 2016)

Kenpoguy123 said:


> Yes animals do but I thought humans were a bit more advanced than animals or maybe I got that wrong. Should we also eat our young and abandon them on a street because animals do that as well you know


Oh you thought humans were a bit more advanced than animals? Humans kill for fun, kill for sport, kill when someone makes a human upset, we don't eat our own young but some humans do kill their own young. Humans make kids fight wars, humans sexually not only other kids, but their own kids. Humans sell other humans as slaves. Humans sell drugs and other unhealthy items to each other for monetary gain. 
Humans not only make life miserable for themselves but they also make life miserable for those who live around them. Humans not only kill their children but they also abandon their kids on the street and in dumpsters.

So much for being more advanced than animals.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jun 23, 2016)

Steve said:


> Nothing wrong with trying to be a decent human being.


Totally agree.  The key word in your sentence is "trying"


----------



## Kenpoguy123 (Jun 23, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> Oh you thought humans were a bit more advanced than animals? Humans kill for fun, kill for sport, kill when someone makes a human upset, we don't eat our own young but some humans do kill their own young. Humans make kids fight wars, humans sexually not only other kids, but their own kids. Humans sell other humans as slaves. Humans sell drugs and other unhealthy items to each other for monetary gain.
> Humans not only make life miserable for themselves but they also make life miserable for those who live around them. Humans not only kill their children but they also abandon their kids on the street and in dumpsters.
> 
> So much for being more advanced than animals.


Yes but those are just the odd bunch of scum it doesn't represent the majority


----------



## Ironbear24 (Jun 23, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> And, for the record.... MMA vs TMA has nothing to do with it.. I know a local MMA gym owner/trainer/teacher who likely would have kicked you for that you did too. However I am not sure he would have given you any avenue back.





Xue Sheng said:


> .....quit your whining and your verbal posturing, take it seriously...and then listen to your shifu, man up, shut up and train.



Nobody said anything about TMA vs MMA. You are only one you brought that up. Second none if this is whining and I did man up. I didn't complain about anything he said or did, I went along with it and continue to go to class in just the pants and a black shirt. 

Long sleeve shirt to make Buka proud.


----------



## KenpoMaster805 (Jun 23, 2016)

IronBear24 what you did is just plain wrong remember in karate seek perfection and character be faithful endeavor to excel respect other refrain from Violent behavior you should know this when you do karate

also Never used karate unless you need to used it what you did was wrong on the most part and just because your piss you gonna hit your Instructor how could you you don't do that and if i was your instructor you will be banned from my dojo and ill not even give you your GI and ill take away your Belt too and why the hell you wanna impress girls dont you have a GF thats funny that your instructor will jump on the bush and hit your groin Lmao but still what you did is wrong


----------



## Ironbear24 (Jun 23, 2016)

MAfreak said:


> i told you so.
> btw i still don't get how "sifu" and "gi" fits together.



Because the style is a mix of Tracy Kenpo Karate and various Chinese martial arts. 



KenpoMaster805 said:


> IronBear24 what you did is just plain wrong remember in karate seek perfection and character be faithful endeavor to excel respect other refrain from Violent behavior you should know this when you do karate
> 
> also Never used karate unless you need to used it what you did was wrong on the most part and just because your piss you gonna hit your Instructor how could you you don't do that and if i was your instructor you will be banned from my dojo and ill not even give you your GI and ill take away your Belt too and why the hell you wanna impress girls dont you have a GF thats funny that your instructor will jump on the bush and hit your groin Lmao but still what you did is wrong


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jun 23, 2016)

Kenpoguy123 said:


> Yes but those are just the odd bunch of scum it doesn't represent the majority


It doesn't have to represent the majority because they are still human and the violence that goes on today is the same type of violence that has been around since the beginning of Man.  It's not like any of this stuff is new to modern times or that it's an exception to the rule.  It's part of what humans do.  You can't separate the bad from the good and claim it not to be human.


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 23, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> Nobody said anything about TMA vs MMA. You are only one you brought that up. Second none if this is whining and I did man up. I didn't complain about anything he said or did, I went along with it and continue to go to class in just the pants and a black shirt.
> 
> Long sleeve shirt to make Buka proud.




Actually the fact you posted it up is whining, if you had 'manned up' you wouldn't have said anything.


----------



## Kenpoguy123 (Jun 23, 2016)

Ha ironbears got his 4th most popular discussion now


----------



## Tames D (Jun 23, 2016)




----------



## paitingman (Jun 23, 2016)

@OP I know you've been getting a lot of flack and I hope you have been doing some serious thinking about some things. 
My first teacher ( a real old school korean man) really gave it to me (a disrespectful young korean kid who should've known better aha). That's the worst I've ever been beaten up. Period. I was maybe 13. 
That might throw up a lot of red flags for some people and believe me I get it. But the main thing I took from it and what I hope you also take from your experience is that:
1. He believes in you
2. He believes he can guide you and you can help yourself

Both your teacher and mine could've just said get out. dont come back. 
(i mean shoot getting into fights you could be really seen as a liability) but instead of casting you away he chose to continue to try and teach you something.

Train hard and earnestly listen to your teacher.


----------



## Ironbear24 (Jun 23, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Actually the fact you posted it up is whining, if you had 'manned up' you wouldn't have said anything.



What part of "I posted this to admit you all were right? Don't you get?


----------



## Ironbear24 (Jun 23, 2016)

Tames D said:


> View attachment 19948



Yeah I think it is time to bury it. Nothing much more can be said about this.



paitingman said:


> @OP I know you've been getting a lot of flack and I hope you have been doing some serious thinking about some things.
> My first teacher ( a real old school korean man) really gave it to me (a disrespectful young korean kid who should've known better aha). That's the worst I've ever been beaten up. Period. I was maybe 13.
> That might throw up a lot of red flags for some people and believe me I get it. But the main thing I took from it and what I hope you also take from your experience is that:
> 1. He believes in you
> ...



Thanks.


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 23, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> What part of "I posted this to admit you all were right? Don't you get?



The bit that a lifetime of experience tells me that you are saying the words but don't actually admit it's not true, you are attention seeking. That's not necessarily a bad thing but you are playing to the gallery to garner favour but don't actually think we are right at all and are just misunderstanding you. It's like children who hit another child and say sorry immediately just to get the adult off their back, they aren't sorry of course but have learnt that saying 'sorry' placates adults. You still feel hard done by and you always will until you empty your cup and leave the ego out of your interactions with people. You aren't worthless and you aren't an idiots but you are fooling yourself.


----------



## Dylan9d (Jun 24, 2016)

Are you seriously 27 years old?

Because I thought I just read the book report of 14 year old bragging in it that he beat up some guy and whining that his sifu was teaching him a lesson for it.....


----------



## Tames D (Jun 24, 2016)

Dylan9d said:


> Are you seriously 27 years old?
> 
> Because I thought I just read the book report of 14 year old bragging in it that he beat up some guy and whining that his sifu was teaching him a lesson for it.....


Post it


----------



## Buka (Jun 24, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> Oh you thought humans were a bit more advanced than animals? Humans kill for fun, kill for sport, kill when someone makes a human upset, we don't eat our own young but some humans do kill their own young. Humans make kids fight wars, humans sexually not only other kids, but their own kids. Humans sell other humans as slaves. Humans sell drugs and other unhealthy items to each other for monetary gain.
> Humans not only make life miserable for themselves but they also make life miserable for those who live around them. Humans not only kill their children but they also abandon their kids on the street and in dumpsters.
> 
> So much for being more advanced than animals.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 24, 2016)

Kenpoguy123 said:


> I agree with every word he said and honestly it doesn't seem to have taught you much "I wanted to hurt him because he pissed me off"  that's a bad attitude in itself you don't hurt people who piss you off you ignore them. You hurt people who are trying to hurt you and his attitude of saying I don't care that's what pretty much everyone's been saying to you. I hope this teaches you something.


This is the key part of the situation, to me. Emotional self-management is perhaps the most important aspect of emotional intelligence (or emotional maturity). Having that ability to manage your responses to emotions is the most consistent differentiator between people who succeed and those who don't - in nearly any area of life. Use this experience to give you a new reason to focus on controlling your responses.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 24, 2016)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Wow.
> 
> I believe you about someone calling your instructor. Someone has called mine too, to tell on me for something I posted here, and I'm 55 years old. Amazing how entitled some people feel. I've also had them figure where I work and call my boss, but not from this forum; it was a long time ago.
> 
> As to the rest of it, it reads like a dime novel. Entertaining, but...really?


When I was a brown belt, I actually got called on the carpet by my instructor's instructor about something I posted on a forum. The essense of his displeasure was that I had no right to post an opinion or comparison between the approach and style of those more senior than me. I had posted, in a forum frequented by others in the association, about my experience with a head-of-style from another art, comparing and contrasting their training style and movements to what I had experienced within the association. Nothing negative, just a comparison.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jun 24, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> When I was a brown belt, I actually got called on the carpet by my instructor's instructor about something I posted on a forum. The essense of his displeasure was that I had no right to post an opinion or comparison between the approach and style of those more senior than me. I had posted, in a forum frequented by others in the association, about my experience with a head-of-style from another art, comparing and contrasting their training style and movements to what I had experienced within the association. Nothing negative, just a comparison.



I believe my Sanda shifu stopped teaching me because of my talking about it in the forum. The dangers of having a web savvy Chinese shifu


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 24, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> I do know what my problems are. I constantly feel like what I do is never good enough, that's low self-esteem. I constantly seek positive reinforcement from others to help my self esteem problem. (Hence the sparring and fights)
> 
> My ego is large and at the same time fragile, I constantly do things to make people think I am strong and tough. Things such as lift weights, during the busiest gym hours so the more people can see how strong I am. I work out on the heavy bag when there are many people in there for the same reasons.
> 
> ...


In my non-martial-arts life, I am a Professional Development Coach. I help managers develop their ability to deal with problems, work better with people, etc. If you want, I will happily donate an hour of my time on the phone to give you some thoughts and advice that may help you take action on some of these areas. As with anyone else, the results will depend on your actions and how much responsibility you accept.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 24, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> I believe my Sanda shifu stopped teaching me because of my talking about it in the forum. The dangers of having a web savvy Chinese shifu


I've always posted under my own name, primarily so that nobody could claim I was saying things behind anyone's back or doing something sneaky. I think that's the biggest thing I had going for me. I still don't agree with his assertion at the time, but I did (and do) agree that it was entirely acceptable for him to assert his position on that. I simply stopped making comparisons between specific people at that point (person A often moves/teaches/explains this way, while person B tends to move/teach/explain that way) and stuck to making comparisons between arts.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jun 24, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I've always posted under my own name, primarily so that nobody could claim I was saying things behind anyone's back or doing something sneaky. I think that's the biggest thing I had going for me. I still don't agree with his assertion at the time, but I did (and do) agree that it was entirely acceptable for him to assert his position on that. I simply stopped making comparisons between specific people at that point (person A often moves/teaches/explains this way, while person B tends to move/teach/explain that way) and stuck to making comparisons between arts.



I never post under my own name, sorry it is the Cybersecurity guy in me. But the non-sport/non-civilian version of sanda is very rare in the US and it would be real easy for him to figure out who I was based on posts. And since he had asked me to not talk about it, and in my excitement I did, he had every right to stop teaching me. 

We're still friends though


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 24, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> Iron bear, does your style offer competition?
> 
> Maybe competing in a MA tournament will help you?


If he consistently is beaten, it will further hurt his self-image (which he admits is weak).
If he consistently wins, it simply feeds his need for external validation (which he admits is an issue).

I'd actually suggest switching to an internal art for a while to remove both of these.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Jun 24, 2016)

It is unfortunate that many of us seem to have experienced negative effects from some MT member picking up a phone or emailing our instructors, because they were upset with something we said or did online.  As I have said in my 'disclaimer' for some time, if you have a problem with me, step to me.  Don't be a coward, quivering in the dark and using a poison pen to try to 'get back' at me.  I repeat, do not be a coward.


----------



## Marnetmar (Jun 24, 2016)

OP why are you so dead-set on proving yourself to people? Why not just train for training's sake and have some empathy for others along the way?

You can still train hard without being a dick about it, you know. It's not like being a good martial artist and being a good human being are mutually exclusive.


----------



## Ironbear24 (Jun 24, 2016)

Dylan9d said:


> Are you seriously 27 years old?
> 
> Because I thought I just read the book report of 14 year old bragging in it that he beat up some guy and whining that his sifu was teaching him a lesson for it.....



Pfft. I wish I were 14 knowing what I know now.


----------



## Kenpoguy123 (Jun 24, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> Pfft. I wish I were 14 knowing what I know now.


In what way?


----------



## Ironbear24 (Jun 24, 2016)

Kenpoguy123 said:


> In what way?



I would have tried harder in school. Would have not drank and ditched class so much.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 24, 2016)

How and why is this thread still going on? It was a trainwreck from like page 2 and has not changed since.


----------



## Ironbear24 (Jun 24, 2016)

kempodisciple said:


> How and why is this thread still going on? It was a trainwreck from like page 2 and has not changed since.



Because people keep posting in it.


----------



## sgraves (Jun 24, 2016)

Chris Parker said:


> No, you don't. You're not them. You're not in a race. There is no "end point". And frankly, dude, with your issues, you could have started at the age of 3 and you'd never catch them.


don't you think you're being a little harsh man?Every martial artist goes through a tiger phase what he did was dumb but ease up a little bit.


----------



## sgraves (Jun 24, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> I don't know what 'swole' is. There's also no 'us' and I'm not your 'bro'.


its means buff.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 24, 2016)

sgraves said:


> don't you think you're being a little harsh man?Every martial artist goes through a tiger phase what he did was dumb but ease up a little bit.


I certainly did. At 30, I injured my shoulder showing the 20-somethings "how it is done" in an advanced ukemi class.

I don't do that now.


----------



## sgraves (Jun 24, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I certainly did. At 30, I injured my shoulder showing the 20-somethings "how it is done" in an advanced ukemi class.
> 
> I don't do that now.


right! I certainly went through it as well,its a phase everyone has to go through in order to go unto that next plane  as a warrior


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 24, 2016)

sgraves said:


> right! I certainly went through it as well,its a phase everyone has to go through in order to go unto that next plane  as a warrior


I like to think everyone has to. If anyone here didn't, please don't tell me.


----------



## sgraves (Jun 24, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I like to think everyone has to. If anyone here didn't, please don't tell me.


what ironbear24 did wasn't ok but that lesson needed to be learned,everyone is acting like he just committed the worst crime in history


----------



## sgraves (Jun 24, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I like to think everyone has to. If anyone here didn't, please don't tell me.


it would be a lie if people say they didn't go through that phase .


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 24, 2016)

sgraves said:


> what ironbear24 did wasn't ok but that lesson needed to be learned,everyone is acting like he just committed the worst crime in history


I tend to agree. He has some lessons to learn, but many are judging that based on his age. That's the same mistake he made when he referred to those who started earlier. We all have to learn at our own pace. We can't change what we have or have not learned in the past - all we can do is learn from where we are today.


----------



## sgraves (Jun 24, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I tend to agree. He has some lessons to learn, but many are judging that based on his age. That's the same mistake he made when he referred to those who started earlier. We all have to learn at our own pace. We can't change what we have or have not learned in the past - all we can do is learn from where we are today.


 yea very true


----------



## Dylan9d (Jun 25, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> Pfft. I wish I were 14 knowing what I know now.



Me too bud....


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jun 25, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> Pfft. I wish I were 14 knowing what I know now.



If you were 14, your behavior would be more understandable...


----------



## Midnight-shadow (Jun 25, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I tend to agree. He has some lessons to learn, but many are judging that based on his age. That's the same mistake he made when he referred to those who started earlier. We all have to learn at our own pace. We can't change what we have or have not learned in the past - all we can do is learn from where we are today.



Age is not indicative of experience or maturity. If I lived in a cave in the mountains alone my whole life, it doesn't matter how old I get, I wouldn't have any experience of social interaction with other people. If I then came out of the cave and went into a town, chances are I would make a **** ton of social faux pas and more than likely get into a lot of trouble. 

To Ironbear24, you seem like a genuine guy to me, if a little hotheaded. Don't take this lesson as a sign of giving up. To me, it's not the mistakes you make that matter, it's what you do afterwards that matter. If you can learn from this experience and be a better person for it, then that is the important thing, not the mistake itself. Personally I'm glad you brought this discussion here as the lesson you have learned from this is one that a lot of young people need to learn. Sharing the kind the experiences you have had will help those who are in similar situations and could help them avoid getting into trouble before it's too late. That is after all why forums exist, to share knowledge and experience with others.


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 25, 2016)

sgraves said:


> don't you think you're being a little harsh man?Every martial artist goes through a tiger phase what he did was dumb but ease up a little bit.





sgraves said:


> it would be a lie if people say they didn't go through that phase .



Well no, I can't say I did nor did many martial artists I know but then we lack the amount of testosterone needed to do that.


----------



## Ironbear24 (Jun 25, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Well no, I can't say I did nor did many martial artists I know but then we lack the amount of testosterone needed to do that.



So I need some estrogen?


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 25, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> So I need some estrogen?



Quite likely. All About Estrogen!


----------



## Tames D (Jun 25, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Quite likely. All About Estrogen!


Admin: Please lock this thread!


----------



## ShawnP (Jun 25, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I tend to agree. He has some lessons to learn, but many are judging that based on his age. That's the same mistake he made when he referred to those who started earlier. We all have to learn at our own pace. We can't change what we have or have not learned in the past - all we can do is learn from where we are today.


unfortunately i have forgotten more than i can remember......


----------



## Ironbear24 (Jun 25, 2016)

Tames D said:


> Admin: Please lock this thread!



Why? That was a very helpful article.


----------



## Tames D (Jun 25, 2016)

Yeah, right.


----------



## Kenpoguy123 (Jun 25, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> So I need some estrogen?


No you just need to calm it down and stop getting in fights geez it's not that hard someone talks trash to you you walk away easy done. that means no fight, no problems with the law and no problems getting your **** kicked by your instructor. You don't need estrogen for god sake. There's nothing to do with your body of why your getting into fights you want to stop fighting don't throw a punch simple as that.


----------



## Mr.J (Jun 25, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Quite likely. All About Estrogen!


Dont joke about estrogen i was raised in a matriarchy as of such i have a low grade addiction to it and a very low tollerence to testosterone.



Kenpoguy123 said:


> No you just need to calm it down and stop getting in fights geez it's not that hard someone talks trash to you you walk away easy done. that means no fight, no problems with the law and no problems getting your **** kicked by your instructor. You don't need estrogen for god sake. There's nothing to do with your body of why your getting into fights you want to stop fighting don't throw a punch simple as that.



I think the estrogen comment was in jest.


----------



## Kenpoguy123 (Jun 25, 2016)

Mr.J said:


> Dont joke about estrogen i was raised in a matriarchy as of such i have a low grade addiction to it and a very low tollerence to testosterone.
> 
> 
> 
> I think the estrogen comment was in jest.


Maybe tez was but ironbear replied saying it was a very useful article but geez I hope he was joking


----------



## Mr.J (Jun 25, 2016)

Kenpoguy123 said:


> Maybe tez was but ironbear replied saying it was a very useful article but geez I hope he was joking


Me too.


----------



## Tames D (Jun 25, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Quite likely. All About Estrogen!


----------



## Ironbear24 (Jun 25, 2016)

Mr.J said:


> Me too.



My next avatar is totally gonna have massive breasts. 

Just kidding obviously. The article was a good read, that doesn't mean I am going to take estrogen pills or something. It taught me how even some levels of it are helpful for men, I didn't know that and thought estrogen was only female thing.


----------



## Midnight-shadow (Jun 25, 2016)

Tames D said:


> View attachment 19953



If this thread is affecting you that much, why are you still posting on it? You do know that every time you post on a thread it goes to the top of the board right?


----------



## drop bear (Jun 25, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> My next avatar is totally gonna have massive breasts.
> 
> Just kidding obviously. The article was a good read, that doesn't mean I am going to take estrogen pills or something. It taught me how even some levels of it are helpful for men, I didn't know that and thought estrogen was only female thing.



Well too much testosterone is not a good thing. It is one of those body building pitfalls.


----------



## Ironbear24 (Jun 25, 2016)

Midnight-shadow said:


> If this thread is affecting you that much, why are you still posting on it? You do know that every time you post on a thread it goes to the top of the board right?



IKR? That's like the third post he made in here complaining about it. If you don't like the thread then don't read it, it's that simple.


----------



## Tames D (Jun 25, 2016)

Midnight-shadow said:


> If this thread is affecting you that much, why are you still posting on it? You do know that every time you post on a thread it goes to the top of the board right?


You're right. But when a middle age woman who is known for constant complaining, starts talking about Estrogen? Sorry.


----------



## Tames D (Jun 25, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> IKR? That's like the third post he made in here complaining about it. If you don't like the thread then don't read it, it's that simple.





Ironbear24 said:


> IKR? That's like the third post he made in here complaining about it. If you don't like the thread then don't read it, it's that simple.


Sorry. Please excuse me. I don't want to upset your  glory. Please continue.


----------



## Ironbear24 (Jun 25, 2016)

Tames D said:


> Sorry. Please excuse me. I don't want to upset your  glory. Please continue.


----------



## Tames D (Jun 25, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> View attachment 19954


Is that you?


----------



## Ironbear24 (Jun 25, 2016)

Tames D said:


> Is that you?



Nope. We look nothing alike, I am more black and white in the face.


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## Tez3 (Jun 26, 2016)

ironbear, comments from a certain poster have nothing to do with you, they are directed, as usual, at me, sadly I'm not 'middle aged' though, being in my sixties. He won't have read the article, he will have assumed it's something it's not, it's from a weightlifting/bodybuilding site. I actually have him on ignore but enough people have kindly told me of his very personal attack, yet another, that I though I'd better come out and say that I think he has made himself look a prat by his remarks and continued posting to try and get a thread locked. So don't take it personally, it's aimed at me not you and  I have broad shoulders.


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## Tez3 (Jun 26, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> Why? That was a very helpful article.





Kenpoguy123 said:


> Maybe tez was but ironbear replied saying it was a very useful article but geez I hope he was joking





Did you actually read the article? While I did post tongue in cheek it's a technical article from a weightlifting/body building site that talks about various hormones that the body needs and the need for balance. I don't think the article is what you think it is.


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## Chris Parker (Jun 26, 2016)

sgraves said:


> don't you think you're being a little harsh man?Every martial artist goes through a tiger phase what he did was dumb but ease up a little bit.



Hmm… we haven't really met here yet… so believe me when I tell you that, no, in no way was I being "a little harsh" there… honestly, for me, that was quite gentle. And no, not "every martial artist" goes through a so-called "tiger phase"… nor is that what the OP is going through himself. So you're incorrect in a number of ways, really.


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## RTKDCMB (Jun 26, 2016)

sgraves said:


> Every martial artist goes through a tiger phase


Never known any to have.


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## Midnight-shadow (Jun 26, 2016)

Chris Parker said:


> Hmm… we haven't really met here yet… so believe me when I tell you that, no, in no way was I being "a little harsh" there… honestly, for me, that was quite gentle. And no, not "every martial artist" goes through a so-called "tiger phase"… nor is that what the OP is going through himself. So you're incorrect in a number of ways, really.



I'm confused, what exactly is a "tiger phase" when it's at home? Is it when a Martial Artist loses self-control and goes on a rampage? If that's the case then I sure hope the statement that everyone has one is wrong.


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## Ironbear24 (Jun 26, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> ironbear, comments from a certain poster have nothing to do with you, they are directed, as usual, at me, sadly I'm not 'middle aged' though, being in my sixties. He won't have read the article, he will have assumed it's something it's not, it's from a weightlifting/bodybuilding site. I actually have him on ignore but enough people have kindly told me of his very personal attack, yet another, that I though I'd better come out and say that I think he has made himself look a prat by his remarks and continued posting to try and get a thread locked. So don't take it personally, it's aimed at me not you and  I have broad shoulders.



Ah ok. I had no idea he had some bias toward you. Now I know I'll just let it be. I did find the article helpful though so thank you for posting it.


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## sgraves (Jun 26, 2016)

RTKDCMB said:


> Never known any to have.


I guess I put it in these terms, a tiger phase is where a martial artist is impulsive and aggressive. Where they're are more hot headed and they are wanting o show they're strength and power,it's a stage where a lot hard taught lesson and where they are more willing to jump into a situation without thinking a situation through some people come out of it and some people don't but it's a transition that every martial artist goes through.it's necessary to become better.


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## sgraves (Jun 26, 2016)

How long have you been in the martial arts?


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## Ironbear24 (Jun 26, 2016)

I think what he is saying is we all go through a time where we wish to test our skills so bad.


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## Tez3 (Jun 26, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> I think what he is saying is we all go through a time where we wish to test our skills so bad.



He's not correct though if that's what he means, not everyone does.


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## Kenpoguy123 (Jun 26, 2016)

sgraves said:


> I guess I put it in these terms, a tiger phase is where a martial artist is impulsive and aggressive. Where they're are more hot headed and they are wanting o show they're strength and power,it's a stage where a lot hard taught lesson and where they are more willing to jump into a situation without thinking a situation through some people come out of it and some people don't but it's a transition that every martial artist goes through.it's necessary to become better.


Nope not every martial artist at all. I've never done that and I've been doing martial arts in one way or another for nearly 10 years I've never been in a fight never gotten angry In sparring never hit someone to hard on purpose doing a technique never tried to hurt anyone. Of course accidents happen but nothing because of me getting hot headed and I'm sure a lot of people don't. It's not about the martial arts it's the person. If the person is aggressive it'll happen but it's nothing to do with their training.


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## Ironbear24 (Jun 26, 2016)

Kenpoguy123 said:


> Nope not every martial artist at all. I've never done that and I've been doing martial arts in one way or another for nearly 10 years I've never been in a fight never gotten angry In sparring never hit someone to hard on purpose doing a technique never tried to hurt anyone. Of course accidents happen but nothing because of me getting hot headed and I'm sure a lot of people don't. It's not about the martial arts it's the person. If the person is aggressive it'll happen but it's nothing to do with their training.



So you are perfect? You have no faults outside of martial arts?


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## Kenpoguy123 (Jun 26, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> He's not correct though if that's what he means, not everyone does.


Exactly not all styles have competition. What about tai chi or aikido (not sure if aikido has competition but I don't think so but I could be wrong) not everyone wants to fight personally I hate the idea of fighting if I ever do need to I'd hate it. I mean I will if I have to and I'd have no problems using what I know if my life depends on it but I wouldn't feel cool or tough about it at all. I've never cared about testing myself


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## geezer (Jun 26, 2016)

I don't know if Chris was being "harsh". He was being very direct, and that is not always the best way to get through to someone ...although that may not have been his intention.

One thing I won't do is argue with Chris. So far I've never seen him proven wrong. So, I'll just move along now... to another point:

One thing Ironbear has going for him is that he has_ a sense of humor:_



Ironbear24 said:


> Nope. We look nothing alike, I am more black and white in the face.



And he is generally not rude or dismissive of others _on this forum_. Yes, he ignores certain criticisms, to use his own words, "like water off a duck's back" when maybe he needs to take advice given more seriously. On the other hand, he doesn't respond angrily or vindictively in print the way a few forum members do. Based on that, I gotta give him some credit. 

_@Ironbear24_ -- I'd say try listening to some of the advice given,_ especially from your instructor_. Try talking to him privately at a calm moment and _admitting that you have some issues. _Ask for_ his _advice_. _ After all, he is the only one who actually knows you. We don't. Maybe he can work with you to help you. IMO _Sgraves _wasn't totally off the mark. Many young martial artists do work through a "show-off" phase that can lead to some bullying behavior. I don't think I did, but I've seen it in others. Typically it showed up somewhere between green and brown belts, and significantly no-one at that school was given black unless they'd worked past it.

Another thing, if you are using anything involving _testosterone supplements,_ Seriously, I'd cut it out. That stuff can really mess with your ability to control yourself. I train with a couple of older guys in their 60s and up. Two of them have started getting regular testosterone injections for "low T". One guy, almost 61 came into my class with a cracked sternum the other day because he apparently got carried away full contact sparring with a 40 year old Kempo instructor and tried to school him!. Sheesh! 

The other guy, _84 years old _mind you, was training Escrima with me outdoors in a parking lot at a park (the grass was too wet to train on). Even though there were plenty of empty parking spaces elsewhere, a car pulled in very close behind him, forcing him to hustle out of the way. Instead of shrugging and walking with me to another empty space, this 84 year old gent lost it and began yelling and pounding on the hood of the other guy's car with his fists. I literally had to restrain him and apologize to the terrified driver.

I had to give this student, who's old enough to be my dad, quite a dressing down for his behavior. First of all, he was wearing our organization's T-shirt, and his behavior showed our group in a bad light. Secondly, we were in the paved_ parking _area, so no matter how rude and pushy, the other guy was technically entitled to park there.

Finally, we live in a state where just about everybody_ including a lot of nutcases,_ legally carries a gun -- openly, concealed, or _in their car_, with no license necessary. That alone is a good reason to learn some manners when talking to strangers!

So during our talk, my student mentioned his testosterone injections. _More than a coincidence I'm guessing_. Food for thought anyway. So if this applies to you, I'd _have a talk with your doctor._ Just sayin'.


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## Kenpoguy123 (Jun 26, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> So you are perfect? You have no faults outside of martial arts?


Yes I do have faults plenty of them but when it comes to aggression and controlling my temper I think I've got pretty good control of myself yeah I've had people challenging wanting to fight me trying all sorts of insults to get me to fight and I just walked away and ironbear this may interest you I got more respect off people for walking away than other get when people get in fights. People said to me "fair play walking away I would've smacked him " even the guy himself came up to me the next day and apologised he said "sorry for being a jerk I deserved a hit for what I was being like but good on you for not doing it" see what I mean sometimes you get way more respect for not fighting.


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## Ironbear24 (Jun 26, 2016)

Kenpoguy123 said:


> Yes I do have faults plenty of them but when it comes to aggression and controlling my temper I think I've got pretty good control of myself yeah I've had people challenging wanting to fight me trying all sorts of insults to get me to fight and I just walked away and ironbear this may interest you I got more respect off people for walking away than other get when people get in fights. People said to me "fair play walking away I would've smacked him " even the guy himself came up to me the next day and apologised he said "sorry for being a jerk I deserved a hit for what I was being like but good on you for not doing it" see what I mean sometimes you get way more respect for not fighting.



I got lots of people coming up asking me to help them fight better. That must mean something. I won't continue this path, but it has done some good believe it or not, much more than ever got for being a coward.

Not to say you acted like one. I believe you didn't, that is how it will be viewed by most though which enables yourself for others to try and mess with you.


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## Ironbear24 (Jun 26, 2016)

geezer said:


> So during our talk, my student mentioned his testosterone injections. _More than a coincidence I'm guessing_. Food for thought anyway. So if this applies to you, I'd _have a talk with your doctor._ Just sayin'.



I used to inject testosterone but I quit that because it made me even quicker to anger.


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## Kenpoguy123 (Jun 26, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> I got lots of people coming up asking me to help them fight better. That must mean something. I won't continue this path, but it has done some good believe it or not, much more than ever got for being a coward.
> 
> Not to say you acted like one. I believe you didn't, that is how it will be viewed by most though which enables yourself for others to try and mess with you.


If people view you as a coward for doing the right thing so be it. And if those people try to mess with me I'll do the same thing as I did before there can't be a fight if I refuse to fight and walk away. That's your thing you need to realise who cares what people think. Think of this way you get in a fight mess some guy up in the streets you get taken to the police station they ask you why did you fight? You say he challenged me and insulted me, they ask why didnt you walk away, you say I didn't want to look like a coward. Do you think that'd be a good reason do you think they'd say oh okay fair enough off you go on your way no of course not


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## Ironbear24 (Jun 26, 2016)

geezer said:


> Based on that, I gotta give him some credit.



Thanks.


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## Phobius (Jun 26, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> I got lots of people coming up asking me to help them fight better. That must mean something. I won't continue this path, but it has done some good believe it or not, much more than ever got for being a coward.
> 
> Not to say you acted like one. I believe you didn't, that is how it will be viewed by most though which enables yourself for others to try and mess with you.



You would never call your sifu a coward for not fighting without proper cause. I think sadly it is just you calling yourself a coward, the effect you are seeing is one where you feel confident for a moment or two. Takes more confidence to walk away not because you want to avoid the fight but because you know you can beat him and as such he is no threat to you.


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## Ironbear24 (Jun 26, 2016)

Phobius said:


> You would never call your sifu a coward for not fighting without proper cause. I think sadly it is just you calling yourself a coward, the effect you are seeing is one where you feel confident for a moment or two. Takes more confidence to walk away not because you want to avoid the fight but because you know you can beat him and as such he is no threat to you.



So it's more about not being a bully then?


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## sgraves (Jun 26, 2016)

Kenpoguy123 said:


> Exactly not all styles have competition. What about tai chi or aikido (not sure if aikido has competition but I don't think so but I could be wrong) not everyone wants to fight personally I hate the idea of fighting if I ever do need to I'd hate it. I mean I will if I have to and I'd have no problems using what I know if my life depends on it but I wouldn't feel cool or tough about it at all. I've never cared about testing myself


I'm not talking about competition


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## Tez3 (Jun 26, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> I used to inject testosterone but I quit that because it made me even quicker to anger.



You probably know the other side effects too.
I don't know about the other posters but one reason I keep posting on here is because I actually think you are an engaging and honest young man who I feel wants advice, you might not take it of course lol but I do think it's worth trying to help! I am by nature a bossy female who feels the need to mother nearly everyone so it's no surprise I offer advice left right and centre wanted or not. My sense of humour is military and police which is not always understood here so I can understand when you make jokes that people take as very serious comments though of course some people have absolutely no sense of humour at all......
Take no notice if people think the thread should be closed down, if they think it's bad they should have a look at the firestorm we are having on social media in the UK over the referendum, even when we had a section for political stuff on MT I've never seen such vitriolic spiteful and racist stuff posted before so this thread is like a sparkly unicorn flower fest compared to what I've been seeing the past few days, so as we say here, you crack on with your posts!


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## Ironbear24 (Jun 26, 2016)

Thank you. 

I heard some stuff about the referendum and I feel like I have no place to talk about it. I am not from the UK and never been there, I do hope they didn't come to the decision out of a distaste for middle Eastern immigrants though, from what I seen on Twitter many people are saying "send those kebabs home". Very disappointing, then again we have people in the U.S who aren't too friendly either.

My sifu said something like that about me, " If I thought you were hopeless I would have told you to get the @#$% out a long time ago."


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## Tez3 (Jun 26, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> Thank you.
> 
> I heard some stuff about the referendum and I feel like I have no place to talk about it. I am not from the UK and never been there, I do hope they didn't come to the decision out of a distaste for middle Eastern immigrants though, from what I seen on Twitter many people are saying "send those kebabs home". Very disappointing, then again we have people in the U.S who aren't too friendly either.
> 
> My sifu said something like that about me, " If I thought you were hopeless I would have told you to get the @#$% out a long time ago."



Some of the stuff being posted is really funny, a vote leave chap posted up a petition ( you can petition the government to debate a subject in parliament here) in May to ask for a second referendum because he thought 'leave' would lose, however it's had three million signatures from the 'Remain' people lol. We won't get another referendum but think how bad he'd feel if we did and 'leave' lost instead. 
It's not Middle Eastern immigrants in particular, it's all immigrants, these people are equal opportunity haters lol.
Brings to mind another English saying ' you've gota larf ain't cha', which probably sums up life pretty well really.

I'd suggest that every time you get mad, fed up or about to think about fighting this comes into your head instead, it's a very good earworm and you can't but help feeling that bit better as you sing it, because everyone does!


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## Ironbear24 (Jun 26, 2016)

I'll keep that song in mind next time a Trump supporter tells me to go build the wall. . Funny his is many of my ancestry comes from Hawaii so yeah, they been here longer than any of them.

America is unique in the fact immigrants tell other immigrants to get out for being immigrants XD.


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## RTKDCMB (Jun 26, 2016)

sgraves said:


> How long have you been in the martial arts?


Who are you asking?


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## geezer (Jun 26, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> I'll keep that song in mind next time a Trump supporter tells me to go build the wall. . Funny his is many of my ancestry comes from Hawaii so yeah, they been here longer than any of them.
> 
> *America is unique* in the fact immigrants tell other immigrants to get out for being immigrants XD.



No, actually we are _a lot_ like the Mother Country. 

That little island has seen wave after wave of immigration. I slept through most of  Mrs. Hallor's fourth form European History class but I vaguely recall something about very early pre-celtic peoples, then the Celtic invaders (the Britons), then the Romans, then the Anglo-Saxons, Danes. and Norsemen,  along with Geats, Jutes, Frislanders and other low-land Germanic raiders during the Early Middle Ages (also Dark Ages or "Age of Migration"), then the Normans in 1066 and so on. 

Incidentally these are the same restless people that centuries later kept migrating westward across the Atlantic and took control of the North American Continent. Talk about immigration problems, what we (Anglo-Saxon and Anglophone European Americans did to the native Americans, was a strategy first worked out in the Highland Clearings against the Scottish Clans. Got that from Dr. David Murray, a brilliant young professor of Anthropology I had as an undergraduate student a long time ago.

So now as we enter another age of migrations, we are seeing the same xenophobia on both sides of the Atlantic. Locally here in Arizona, the immigration is largely from Mexico. My first response to the increasing numbers of Mexicans in my neighborhood back in the 90's was to learn Spanish. Weird huh? By contrast most of my "white" neighbors and friends began clamoring for deportations and stricter border security, support for our famous "Sheriff Joe" and his immigrant roundups, and now _Donald Trump_. 

Am I alone in thinking that we Americans are pretty much like our British cousins, except perhaps for our peculiar love affair with guns? Not judging mind you. Politics have no place on this forum! Just expressing a sense of kinship, if you will.


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## Tez3 (Jun 27, 2016)

Another funny thing is that we have more British emigrants in other countries than we actually have immigrants here only when they go abroad we call them ex pats!
I think what the referendum has shown here is how easily divided people can be, and so much of it was from the media and social media, rumours, whispers, outright blatant lies. people you though you knew suddenly start spouting political slogans you would never imagine they would believe. It's actually scary how quickly everything turned nasty. A Sifu I meet on seminars and respect tremendously is posting of his fears because he and his family are Chinese, the far right who jumped on the 'Leave' bandwagon are taking this as 'their' victory.
Now if the mods think this is going towards being political and off topic it's not, I believe that when times get difficult and they will here because a recession is coming, all sides admit it, that we should allow the best side of us to come out not the worst. When things are difficult for us and things are spiralling out of our control, there may be nothing we can _do_ BUT we can always control our attitude. that is the one thing no one can ever take away from us however dire, however in a hole we think we are, we always control our attitude.


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## Juany118 (Jun 27, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> He attacked me first though, even though I kind of egged him on. You know what never mind, I should have just ignored that idiot.
> 
> There were girls there and they probably would have thought I am a wuss or something but oh well, I already have one that's better than them.


Just catching this.  Regardless of whether you were attacked first you have to be able to articulate that the force you used was reasonably appropriate for the force, or threat of force that confronted you.  That is the thing about the law, both Criminal and Civil when it comes to self defense, it's not simply about the fact you are being confronted but the reasonableness of you response.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk


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## Phobius (Jun 27, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> So it's more about not being a bully then?



Well imagine this. You are at a party and there are some girls there seeing you. Now a guy walks up and wants to create a fuss or even start a fight, quickly you join in and beat him up.

In the meantime the smooth talker puts himself in the center, sits down with those girls and start talking. At the same time he asks his friend, who admires him for the reason that he has the attention of all the girls, to go get him a drink. All the while laughing at the two of you hot heads fighting it off.

Now who do you think have the most respect from the people around him? You who beat a sorry sod up? The sorry sod who did not know better? (And if you are unlucky because he got beaten the girls want to tend to him) Or the guy that put you both beneath him without flexing a single muscle?

I am not saying you should be a pushover, but to fight someone you already know you can beat when you have another option is not the best choice. Instead don't be the bully. Be the center of their attention instead, the person they admire and respect. Everyone can make enemies, it takes a someone that deserves the respect to keep everyone his friends.

It is not the brawler that goes home with the ladies at the end of the day. (Nor is it the nice guy, or pushover as is more fitting name)


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## Juany118 (Jun 27, 2016)

Phobius said:


> Well imagine this. You are at a party and there are some girls there seeing you. Now a guy walks up and wants to create a fuss or even start a fight, quickly you join in and beat him up.
> 
> In the meantime the smooth talker puts himself in the center, sits down with those girls and start talking. At the same time he asks his friend, who admires him for the reason that he has the attention of all the girls, to go get him a drink. All the while laughing at the two of you hot heads fighting it off.
> 
> ...


Agreed on everything but the last... now it may argue that in this case the "nice" is but appearance but the "nice guy" can be the "smooth" guy to.  You ca use the "nice" as a key to create that opening, the trick is to not be so nice that fail to walk through the door [emoji6]

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## Phobius (Jun 27, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> Agreed on everything but the last... now it may argue that in this case the "nice" is but appearance but the "nice guy" can be the "smooth" guy to.  You ca use the "nice" as a key to create that opening, the trick is to not be so nice that fail to walk through the door [emoji6]
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk



True, we just have the "nice guy" in my country as a term for someone that is shy and clumsy with words and as such never gets the girl but always dreams about being the knight in shining armor.

So I agree, being nice has nothing to do with the subject.


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## Juany118 (Jun 27, 2016)

Phobius said:


> True, we just have the "nice guy" in my country as a term for someone that is shy and clumsy with words and as such never gets the girl but always dreams about being the knight in shining armor.
> 
> So I agree, being nice has nothing to do with the subject.


Oh usually the same is used in the US and ends you in the "Friend zone" until you get enough of those under your belt and learn that fortune favors the bold lol

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## moonhill99 (Jun 27, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> So apparently an anonymous caller told him about "how I beat up a middle aged man who is out of shape." This led to a long talk about fighting and he asked me honestly is this a habit of mine.
> 
> I told him about the other two incidents and he told me to take off the top of my gi and give it back to him. Since he doesnt want the dojos emblem to be associated with me.
> 
> ...



Well assuming you not trolling here?  And there was a middle aged man that got beaten up and some one saying you did it. Call the police and get the police report or police call out.  The police report would rule you out, base on the suspects description and info. Or go to the police station and get the victim to come on down to station to say if you did it or not. Unless it late at night and you are wearing dark clothing like lot of suspects do, than you could be mistaken if the victim did not get good look at you face.

If it is mistaken identity. Next time wear clothing where you stand out not blend in.

But funny if the martial arts instructor thought you did it? Yes did it!! He did not call the police and kick you out of school and say never come back to his school ever again!!


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 27, 2016)

moonhill99 said:


> Well assuming you not trolling here?  And there was a middle aged man that got beaten up and some one saying you did it. Call the police and get the police report or police call out.  The police report would rule you out, base on the suspects description and info. Or go to the police station and get the victim to come on down to station to say if you did it or not. Unless it late at night and you are wearing dark clothing like lot of suspects do, than you could be mistaken if the victim did not get good look at you face.
> 
> If it is mistaken identity. Next time wear clothing where you stand out not blend in.
> 
> But funny if the martial arts instructor thought you did it? Yes did it!! He did not call the police and kick you out of school and say never come back to his school ever again!!



You're not keeping up. Ironbear24 posted about his intention to beat up a family member prior to the assault, and then described it afterwards. There's no doubt of his guilt. And it's guilt of the worst kind, since it was a premeditated assault.
Personally, I'd encourage the family member to press charges.


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## Phobius (Jun 27, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> You're not keeping up. Ironbear24 posted about his intention to beat up a family member prior to the assault, and then described it afterwards. There's no doubt of his guilt. And it's guilt of the worst kind, since it was a premeditated assault.
> Personally, I'd encourage the family member to press charges.



Problem is, his family member agreed to fight against better knowledge. As such there should be little to no claim of premeditated assault. However if there had been an injury of any kind I would not want to be Ironbear.


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 27, 2016)

Phobius said:


> Problem is, his family member agreed to fight against better knowledge. As such there should be little to no claim of premeditated assault. However if there had been an injury of any kind I would not want to be Ironbear.



No, he didn't. Ironbear24 specifically set out to provoke the conflict, and succeeded. I'm not a lawyer, but I don't see this as being anything other than an assault.


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## moonhill99 (Jun 27, 2016)

Phobius said:


> Problem is, his family member agreed to fight against better knowledge. As such there should be little to no claim of premeditated assault. However if there had been an injury of any kind I would not want to be Ironbear.



So he beet up a family member and a middle aged stranger on the street? The family member was a mutually agreed fight among both?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 27, 2016)

moonhill99 said:


> So he beet up a family member and a middle aged stranger on the street? The family member was a mutually agreed fight among both?


No, there was no middle aged stranger. Just his uncle who is a middle aged man that is out of shape. The family member made fun of him, he wanted to punch him, people on here (myself and hanzou I believe) suggested that is a bad idea and offered the alternative of a mutual grappling match. He agreed and won the match. His sifu found out and got pissed off, which is the start of this thread.

It's a lot of things from a lot of different threads, but that's basically the cliffnotes version of this particular incident.


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## Ironbear24 (Jun 27, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> No, he didn't. Ironbear24 specifically set out to provoke the conflict, and succeeded. I'm not a lawyer, but I don't see this as being anything other than an assault.



You can't press charges because you got a bruised ego. There was no damage done to him other than hurt pride.


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## Juany118 (Jun 27, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> You can't press charges because you got a bruised ego. There was no damage done to him other than hurt pride.


2701.  Simple assault.
(a)  Offense defined.--Except as provided under section 2702 (relating to aggravated assault), a person is guilty of assault if he:
(1)  *attempts* to cause or intentionally, knowingly or recklessly causes bodily injury to another;
(2)  negligently causes bodily injury to another with a deadly weapon;
(3)  attempts by physical menace to put another in fear of imminent serious bodily injury; 

That is the statute in my State.  So when it comes to subsection 1. Attempt comes down to techniques used and how the complainant describes the actual experience.

In subsection 3 all the complainant needs to do is articulate, during the incident, that they were in fear of serious bodily injury.

As such in your incident what is most important is whether or not the encounter was consensual 

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## Dirty Dog (Jun 27, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> You can't press charges because you got a bruised ego. There was no damage done to him other than hurt pride.



The bruised ego is yours. Bullies commonly have terribly fragile egos. It's one of the reasons you bully people.

He made fun of you. It bruised your ego. So you committed a  pre-meditated assault on him.

And although I am not an LEO or a lawyer, I have, on many occasions, pressed charges against unruly patients who have laid hands on staff. Without injury. No injury is required for battery charges. Injury, and the degree of injury, certainly affects the specific level of charge (what class of misdemeanor or felony), but no injury is required.
You might want to peruse THIS site before you commit your next crime. If nothing else, I suspect they can probably hook you up with a defense lawyer.


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## Ironbear24 (Jun 27, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> 2701.  Simple assault.
> (a)  Offense defined.--Except as provided under section 2702 (relating to aggravated assault), a person is guilty of assault if he:
> (1)  *attempts* to cause or intentionally, knowingly or recklessly causes bodily injury to another;
> (2)  negligently causes bodily injury to another with a deadly weapon;
> ...



What harm was done?


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## Ironbear24 (Jun 27, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> The bruised ego is yours. Bullies commonly have terribly fragile egos. It's one of the reasons you bully people.
> 
> He made fun of you. It bruised your ego. So you committed a  pre-meditated assault on him.
> 
> ...



My next crime? Look I know you think I'm a thug but there wont be a next crime. First of all what I did wasn't even a crime to begin with, we both agreed to do it. By that definition a boxer can can press charges against another boxer for assault since he intentionally harmed him.


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## Juany118 (Jun 27, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> What harm was done?


You don't understand, there doesn't have to be actual physical harm.  You can have an assault simply because a person was placed in a submission hold that caused them to tap out due to pain (subsections a1 and a3) because the hold, as an example this 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 simply due to the fact it can cause serious bodily injury in theory (attempt) and the fact the tapping out, the fear of bodily injury, is an element of a3.

a3 literally is ONLY about the state of mind of the "victim", you can say "what harm was done?" till blue in the face but if the "victim" articulates that they were placed in fear by physical menace you are toast.

That's just how the law works, in the US at least.


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## Ironbear24 (Jun 27, 2016)

If you agree to a grappling match. You should very well know what that means. Are you telling me if a I challenge hanzou to a grappling match and he chokes me out. I can press charges agaisnt him? Do you know what kind of *** that would make me look like? 

I am the one who agreed to do it. If I were afraid or so worried about getting hurt then I could have easily said no. The laws above are clearly designed for attacking people without their consent.


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## Juany118 (Jun 27, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> My next crime? Look I know you think I'm a thug but there wont be a next crime. First of all what I did wasn't even a crime to begin with, we both agreed to do it. By that definition a boxer can can press charges against another boxer for assault since he intentionally harmed him.


No because there the issue of mutual consent creates a degree of immunity.

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## Ironbear24 (Jun 27, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> No because there the issue of mutual consent creates a degree of immunity.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk



Well we both consented to grappling so the same rules apply.


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## Juany118 (Jun 27, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> If you agree to a grappling match. You should very well know what that means. Are you telling me if a I challenge hanzou to a grappling match and he chokes me out. I can press charges agaisnt him? Do you know what kind of *** that would make me look like?
> 
> I am the one who agreed to do it. If I were afraid or so worried about getting hurt then I could have easily said no. The laws above are clearly designed for attacking people without their consent.


But here is the thing.  For consent to attach it has to be informed.  We know Hanzou does BJJ, and we know what BJJ entails, so we are informed.  The boxer knows the rules of a boxing match, they are informed.  While an extreme example, let's say we bumped into each other and you challenged me to a "fight" in a bar.  You got into your stance, I take the conveniently still disassembled pool cue off the pool table and go FMA on you splitting your skull open.  We both consented to the fight but your consent was uninformed because you were likely not expecting me to immediately go to weapons.  Uninformed consent is not consent under the law.

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## Juany118 (Jun 27, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> Well we both consented to grappling so the same rules apply.


There is wrestling and then there is grappling so it depends on how informed he was.  Additionally because most States don't like public brawls...

(b)  Grading.--Simple assault is a misdemeanor of the second degree unless committed:
(1)  in a fight or scuffle entered into by mutual consent, in which case it is a misdemeanor of the third degree; 

While the negative consequences of your actions have been limited up to this point, I don't think you have thought of all the potential ramifications.
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## Ironbear24 (Jun 27, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> But here is the thing.  For consent to attach it has to be informed.  We know Hanzou does BJJ, and we know what BJJ entails, so we are informed.  The boxer knows the rules of a boxing match, they are informed.  While an extreme example, let's say we bumped into each other and you challenged me to a "fight" in a bar.  You got into your stance, I take the conveniently still disassembled pool cue off the pool table and go FMA on you splitting your skull open.  We both consented to the fight but your consent was uninformed because you were likely not expecting me to immediately go to weapons.  Uninformed consent is not consent under the law.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk





Juany118 said:


> There is wrestling and then there is grappling so it depends on how informed he was.  Additionally because most States don't like public brawls...
> 
> (b)  Grading.--Simple assault is a misdemeanor of the second degree unless committed:
> (1)  in a fight or scuffle entered into by mutual consent, in which case it is a misdemeanor of the third degree;
> ...



It feels like you are arguing with me simply for the sake of arguing. Earlier in the thread I listed the exact conversation between me and my uncle. If you did not see it that's totally ok, that is an easy thing to miss.

The conversation went something like this.

Me : Hey want to have a Judo match?

Uncle: Judo is for pussies. I wrestle.

Me : Its the same thing but whatever. You want to or not.

Uncle: yeah let's go then.

Clearly he knew what he was getting into. He tried pushing me and took his arm and basically got him with a hip throw. I then pinned him. He wasn't hurt and he quickly stood up after the match, I even tried to help him up and he turned me away and got up by himself.


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## Juany118 (Jun 27, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> It feels like you are arguing with me simply for the sake of arguing. Earlier in the thread I listed the exact conversation between me and my uncle. If you did not see it that's totally ok, that is an easy thing to miss.
> 
> The conversation went something like this.
> 
> ...


No I am actually trying to help you.  You have no clue how often in a fight, when the cops show up, it's not necessarily the person who "started it" that is the only one locked up.  They first person usually put in cuffs?  The guy winning/not bleeding.  Then MAYBE a neutral third party has the integrity to step forward and clear him.  If it is a he said/she said game the guy winning/not bleeding goes to jail.

Example, Saturday night, we had a HUGE brawl at a local banquet hall (we had to call in 5 surrounding PDs for manpower).  We hooked a bunch of people.  One of them was actually a victim but due to his demeanor and other circumstances he was a suspect as far as we were concerned, until a 60 odd year old women, whose Grand Kids I used to play with when I did community policing and who is (incidentally) one of the nicest ladies on earth, ran up to me and told me the guy was only trying to defend his 16 daughter from getting struck.  If that lady hadn't been there that guy would have gone to the station because we had no one impartial to vouch for him.

The law doesn't care about what is known only what can be proved and if it is can be proven you beat a guy, and it can't be proven it was consensual or self defense you get booked.

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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 27, 2016)

Also, and I can't believe I'm posting in this thread again, the uncle knew how much Ironbear trains..apparently he makes fun of him for it. He knew he was consenting to grapple with a training martial artist in that martial artists art, it's not like anything was a surprise like your lack of consent example.


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## Ironbear24 (Jun 27, 2016)

Well those are very different circumstances. I did just up and throw this person to the floor, I asked him if he wanted to have a "Judo" match. As kenpodesciple stated above he knows I train, and even makes fun of me for training so much.

So it's not like he had no clue what he was getting himself into. If he had simply said no I would have let it go at that.


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## moonhill99 (Jun 27, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> It feels like you are arguing with me simply for the sake of arguing. Earlier in the thread I listed the exact conversation between me and my uncle. If you did not see it that's totally ok, that is an easy thing to miss.
> 
> The conversation went something like this.
> 
> ...



It was not mutually agreed fight among both. He said some thing and you got mad and challenge him to fight. And than he said okay that go at it.

So in simple terms among the police it was nothing more than family domestic violence call.


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## moonhill99 (Jun 27, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> But here is the thing.  For consent to attach it has to be informed.  We know Hanzou does BJJ, and we know what BJJ entails, so we are informed.  The boxer knows the rules of a boxing match, they are informed.  While an extreme example, let's say we bumped into each other and you challenged me to a "fight" in a bar.  You got into your stance, I take the conveniently still disassembled pool cue off the pool table and go FMA on you splitting your skull open.  We both consented to the fight but your consent was uninformed because you were likely not expecting me to immediately go to weapons.  Uninformed consent is not consent under the law.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk



He should post want state he is in so we can look up the law. The family domestic in Florida does not have to be assault. You can go to jail just for yelling, screaming, pushing or putting your hands on the person. You don't have to push, kick, strike or take the person to the ground. Or fight at the ground!!


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## Juany118 (Jun 27, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> Well those are very different circumstances. I did just up and throw this person to the floor, I asked him if he wanted to have a "Judo" match. As kenpodesciple stated above he knows I train, and even makes fun of me for training so much.
> 
> So it's not like he had no clue what he was getting himself into. If he had simply said no I would have let it go at that.


The point is if the cops show up it's your word against his... unless you have third parties willing to come forward.  You could be telling the 100% truth but if you have no supporting witnesses and the facts and circumstances that the cops see in the aftermath contradict it such the "why would an out of shape middle age guy be consenting to a fight with this 20 something who trains in martial arts and bench presses 300?" Kicks in.  That is why I said it's about what can be proven. 

You also missed that most states even have unsanctioned consent fights as illegal.  The point is to make clear fights in public are, to one degree or another, dice rolls in terms of outcomes.

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## moonhill99 (Jun 27, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> No I am actually trying to help you.  You have no clue how often in a fight, when the cops show up, it's not necessarily the person who "started it" that is the only one locked up.  They first person usually put in cuffs?  The guy winning/not bleeding.  Then MAYBE a neutral third party has the integrity to step forward and clear him.  If it is a he said/she said game the guy winning/not bleeding goes to jail.
> 
> Example, Saturday night, we had a HUGE brawl at a local banquet hall (we had to call in 5 surrounding PDs for manpower).  We hooked a bunch of people.  One of them was actually a victim but due to his demeanor and other circumstances he was a suspect as far as we were concerned, until a 60 odd year old women, whose Grand Kids I used to play with when I did community policing and who is (incidentally) one of the nicest ladies on earth, ran up to me and told me the guy was only trying to defend his 16 daughter from getting struck.  If that lady hadn't been there that guy would have gone to the station because we had no one impartial to vouch for him.
> 
> ...



Unless he is in Texas he can go to jail for shooting a criminal be it a burglary, home invasion or robbery. A citizens arrest or police officer roughing up bad guy can go to jail. No blood or bruise is required.

Texas is probably the only state where you can shoot unharmed person in self defense.

Many police officers have their hands tied in Europe. No police officer can push, kick or strike and it don't matter if the police officer is getting beaten up.


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## Juany118 (Jun 27, 2016)

moonhill99 said:


> Unless he is in Texas he can go to jail for shooting a criminal be it a burglary, home invasion or robbery. A citizens arrest or police officer roughing up bad guy can go to jail. No blood or bruise is required.
> 
> Texas is probably the only state where you can shoot unharmed person in self defense.
> 
> Many police officers have their hands tied in Europe. No police officer can push, kick or strike and it don't matter if the police officer is getting beaten up.


What European Countries do you speak of?  England all cops don't have guns but they can use physical force to effect arrests.  France has issues with complaints of use of force in their Muslim Community the way the US has in the African American community, and any US Soldier who got into a bar fight in Germany knows the Polizei don't pull punches.  Italian police all pack weapons.   

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## Ironbear24 (Jun 27, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> The point is if the cops show up it's your word against his... unless you have third parties willing to come forward.  You could be telling the 100% truth but if you have no supporting witnesses and the facts and circumstances that the cops see in the aftermath contradict it such the "why would an out of shape middle age guy be consenting to a fight with this 20 something who trains in martial arts and bench presses 300?" Kicks in.  That is why I said it's about what can be proven.
> 
> You also missed that most states even have unsanctioned consent fights as illegal.  The point is to make clear fights in public are, to one degree or another, dice rolls in terms of outcomes.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk



Because he has a massive ego and thinks he can take on the world. If he did call the police I guarantee you they wouldn't even take the case seriously. There was no harm done to him, no blood no bruises nothing. He also consented to it which many witnesses could verify.


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## moonhill99 (Jun 27, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> Well those are very different circumstances. I did just up and throw this person to the floor, I asked him if he wanted to have a "Judo" match. As kenpodesciple stated above he knows I train, and even makes fun of me for training so much.
> 
> So it's not like he had no clue what he was getting himself into. If he had simply said no I would have let it go at that.



Why would he being a Judo guy fight you being a wrestler?


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## Ironbear24 (Jun 27, 2016)

moonhill99 said:


> Why would he being a Judo guy fight you being a wrestler?



You got it backwards.


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## moonhill99 (Jun 27, 2016)

In old days in the US the police used baton and could push, kick and strike be it street fight or bar fight. But the media and public has looked down on this and LAPD use of baton. So more officers use taser these days than going out using a baton or fighting Clint Eastwood style.

It not that cops can't  push, kick and strike it just it looks really bad in public eye and the media these days. If the bad guy is not doing any  pushing, kicking and striking .

Self defense is tricking word be it the police or the public. If I go to the 711 and person stands one feet in front of me ( even yelling at me) or does not allow me to exit the building!!  I cannot legally touch the person or push the person out of my path. I'm not cop. But the cop can legally touch or gram the person.

If person is resisting arrest or pulling away not pushing, kicking and striking the officer or going at the officer the officer can NOT go out pushing, kicking and striking. But can touch, gram, use a take down, or use of a taser. But the public cannot do this.

State of Texas I can pull out a gun on someone that broke into my home. Under Texas law to protect myself, property and family. In the UK and Canada I cannot. The gun laws don't cover self defense on person, property and family. 

They have the fear for life law not self defense. You have to prove in court you could not runway and had to shoot because I was fear for my life. Guns must be locked up at all times in UK and Canada.


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## moonhill99 (Jun 27, 2016)

Other thing is cop shooting in US is different in the UK and Canada.

There was incident in Canada of cop shooing a Emotionally Disturbed Person on city bus armed with knife. After many times to drop knife the suspect refuse and started to walk to officers the officer than shot the Person.

There was media and public out cry and officer got charged. Because the officer did not move out of harms way. And saying why did the officer not tase the person or shoot the person in leg. 

Such a huge culture difference. None of this would play out this way in the US. If you are armed and don't drop it and refuse the police orders you get shot and case close.


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## Juany118 (Jun 27, 2016)

moonhill99 said:


> In old days in the US the police used baton and could push, kick and strike be it street fight or bar fight. But the media and public has looked down on this and LAPD use of baton. So more officers use taser these days than going out using a baton or fighting Clint Eastwood style.
> 
> It not that cops can't  push, kick and strike it just it looks really bad in public eye and the media these days. If the bad guy is not doing any  pushing, kicking and striking .
> 
> ...



Ummm FYI... been a cop in the US for almost 20 years, use of force hasn't changed, so long as you are using the rules that have existed for the last 40 odd years.  All Rodney King did was highlight that maybe some cops weren't following the rules.

As for UK you can defend yourself.  The gun needs to be locked BUT they actually sell rapid open gun safes now that are as easy as opening a drawer.

Householders and the use of force against intruders

As for Canada Under Section 40 of the Criminal Code, which deals with the defence of dwellings says, everyone who is in possession of a dwelling house is justified in using as much force as necessary, to prevent any person from forcibly breaking into or entering the dwelling house without lawful authority.

There are no restrictions on the use of firearms.  Where are you getting your info because it is pretty much...wrong.

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## Juany118 (Jun 27, 2016)

moonhill99 said:


> Other thing is cop shooting in US is different in the UK and Canada.
> 
> There was incident in Canada of cop shooing a Emotionally Disturbed Person on city bus armed with knife. After many times to drop knife the suspect refuse and started to walk to officers the officer than shot the Person.
> 
> ...


The same outcry in the Canada case happens in the US.  People don't think logically but with the heart.  They see a mentally ill person, not in control of their faculties get shot and they freak, even if the officer had no choice.

  It doesn't mean it is not a permissible use of force.  As for the UK...they are actually INCREASING the number of Armed response officers they have, especially in London.  Again please, where are you getting this info?

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## moonhill99 (Jun 27, 2016)

Other thing in state of Texas cops can legally do is shoot unarmed person, push, kick, strike if the cop fears he or she could be beaten up. Where the suspect does not have to push, kick or strike the officer. 

A 100 pound body difference, bodybuilder, tall person, really big guy is going to go bad for the officer one way or an other!! So just resisting he could get shot or get kicked or pushed so on. Yes just resisting or pulling a way. You can't do this in the UK or Canada

Same thing researching for floor board, glovebox, under the seat or your hands in your jacket when officers pulls you over. Yes specially late at night in high crime gang area.

Many areas in the US the police can legally shoot an unarmed person if cop fears he or she could get beaten up or the suspect may be reaching for a gun.


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## Juany118 (Jun 27, 2016)

moonhill99 said:


> Other thing in state of Texas cops can legally do is shoot unarmed person, push, kick, strike if the cop fears he or she could be beaten up. Where the suspect does not have to push, kick or strike the officer.
> 
> A 100 pound body difference, bodybuilder, tall person, really big guy is going to go bad for the officer one way or an other!! So just resisting he could get shot or get kicked or pushed so on. Yes just resisting or pulling a way. You can't do this in the UK or Canada
> 
> ...



Please again answer the question, "what are your sources" because so much of this is over simplified and or completely wrong.

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## moonhill99 (Jun 27, 2016)

There was an incident of ex-husband stalking the wife in Houston. He got into her car and would not get out!! There was struggle and she shot him!!

If she did this in Canada or the UK she would be in prison. hack even in the US if she did in most places she would be in prison.

She would have to prove she had no other choice.

They don't allow open carry or concealed carry.


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## Juany118 (Jun 27, 2016)

moonhill99 said:


> There was an incident of ex-husband stalking the wife in Houston. He got into her car and would not get out!! There was struggle and she shot him!!
> 
> If she did this in Canada or the UK she would be in prison. hack even in the US if she did in most places she would be in prison.
> 
> ...


Well first, she could have done what is on the clear rise in England, stabbing him, and if he was stalking her and went to do that she would be good depending on the circumstances... the burdens of proof for self defense are no different in all 3 Nations, US, Canada or UK, the only difference is what weapons you can carry legally in public.

So again since everything you are using is wrong or over simplified what is your information source?

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## moonhill99 (Jun 27, 2016)

As for the public view on self-defense generally the police, courts and the public are more okay with pushing, low kicks than high kicks.  Mush of Taekwondo would put you in jail in most states unless you where bleeding and the police officers and court seen you had no other choice.

The police, courts and the public normally looked down on high kicks as over kill. So if the bad guy is bloody and you not, than you going to jail. It would be out to prove in court self-defense.


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## moonhill99 (Jun 27, 2016)

As for OP that agree for a family fight!! In some areas the police could look at this as an illegal fight.

If me and my neighbor agree to fight or co worker and I agree to fight at xx street and time xx that could be illegal fight.

Just like all the other underground illegal fights cops bust all the time.


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## moonhill99 (Jun 27, 2016)

I know there was a time that underground boxing and MMA was illegal in some areas.

And in Canada and New York police wear arresting people in MMA and underground boxing. AN *Other* illegal street fights.

So I would not be surprised if the OP gets arrested for a illegal street fight.


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## Juany118 (Jun 28, 2016)

moonhill99 said:


> As for the public view on self-defense generally the police, courts and the public are more okay with pushing, low kicks than high kicks.  Mush of Taekwondo would put you in jail in most states unless you where bleeding and the police officers and court seen you had no other choice.
> 
> The police, courts and the public normally looked down on high kicks as over kill. So if the bad guy is bloody and you not, than you going to jail. It would be out to prove in court self-defense.


You you won't name the sources because they either don't exist, are not reputable and you have no professional experience or training on the issues you have been making sweeping statements on.  Gotcha

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## PhotonGuy (Jun 28, 2016)

jks9199 said:


> You got off lightly.  Your sifu tried to teach you a lesson, he didn't break any bones or toss you out of class.


That could mean a major lawsuit against the sifu, if he breaks a student's bones.


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## Tez3 (Jun 28, 2016)

moonhill99 said:


> Many police officers have their hands tied in Europe. No police officer can push, kick or strike and it don't matter if the police officer is getting beaten up.



What on earth are you talking about? You clearly have absolutely no idea of what police officers in Europe are like, many would make the US police look like nannies. Most of them are armed, none of them are afraid to use force even when you would think it's not justified. You are making this all up. In the UK the police are actually very robust, come across and try to beat a police officer up, you'll find out for yourself. We have two police forces here that have always been permanently armed, the PSNI and the Ministry of Defence Police, others are armed as and when needed. the laws of self defence here are also very clear, you can defend yourself using  reasonable force, this includes using a weapon and pre-emptive strikes if in fear of your life. If the woman you talk about had shot her husband in self defence and she was licensed to carry a weapon here ( yes many are funnily enough) she would not be charged with murder, if the weapon was illegal she would most likely be charged with having that and perhaps manslaughter but would be given a suspended sentence showing that the court understood the circumstances.
Stop making statements that you clearly have no idea about, you are making them up.


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## Kenpoguy123 (Jun 28, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> You can't press charges because you got a bruised ego. There was no damage done to him other than hurt pride.


Man I was done commenting on this thread because it was pointless but that comment is stupid of course he can press charges you used your martial art training on someone and not in self defence. It's no different if I walk up to someone and slap them it may not cause any damage but it's still assault


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## Kenpoguy123 (Jun 28, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> My next crime? Look I know you think I'm a thug but there wont be a next crime. First of all what I did wasn't even a crime to begin with, we both agreed to do it. By that definition a boxer can can press charges against another boxer for assault since he intentionally harmed him.


Wow....boxing is a sport that has contracts, medical professionals commissions, tests not just a drunk guy saying sure ill fight you.


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## Kenpoguy123 (Jun 28, 2016)

At the end of the day looking at your posts now you've learnt nothing from happened. Nothing from the advice that's been given you show no remorse for what you did and clearly believe what you did was right and I'm sure this is going to happen again and I hope your instructor kicks you out because martial arts are not for you now I'm done commenting on this pointless thread.


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## drop bear (Jun 28, 2016)

Kenpoguy123 said:


> Man I was done commenting on this thread because it was pointless but that comment is stupid of course he can press charges you used your martial art training on someone and not in self defence. It's no different if I walk up to someone and slap them it may not cause any damage but it's still assault



Hard to actually prove in a court though. And do if you go to the police with an "i got slapped" statement you dont get very far.

And you can't really press charges if the police cant be bothered.

If you remember my mate who got stabbed.  To much effort to persue.  Guy got sent on his way. 

This is separate to whether you should be slapping people. Which is generally to be avoided.


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## Phobius (Jun 28, 2016)

Kenpoguy123 said:


> Man I was done commenting on this thread because it was pointless but that comment is stupid of course he can press charges you used your martial art training on someone and not in self defence. It's no different if I walk up to someone and slap them it may not cause any damage but it's still assault



So where you live the cops will charge him for having a mutually agreed bout that may end with minor bruises and broken pride for both?

Touchy cops. I think if anything like that came to cops attention where I live they would go there if they need to help stop the fight, otherwise they will just tell you to talk to insurance company if you need to visit a doctor.

All else it was a conflict where both are deemed equally guilty. Charging both would serve no value unless a third party got affected by the bout and wants to press charges. This of course does not quit you from responsibility. On the contruary you are very much demanded to assure your opponent does not suffer any major injuries.

Problem is not with the cops, it is with his family, himself, his vision of pride and respect. And the fact that question of morale comes in to play since knowing you will win makes you a bully using physical force to injure another persons self confidence or pride to strengthen your own.


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## Midnight-shadow (Jun 28, 2016)

Geez, you guys are taking this whole situation way too far in my opinion. I see this event as no different to any other friendly sparring match. Assault? Excessive use of force? Domestic violence? From what I've read of the event none of this applies and quite frankly if the police did get involved chances are they will just tell you to piss off and stop wasting their time. Even hypothetically the scenario of getting the police involved is ridiculous. 

Here's a story for you. When I was working out in Turkey I managed to piss someone off who then grabbed me by the throat. I waited until I was near to unconsciousness before I smacked him around the head, breaking his grip and releasing myself. He went to the police to report me for hitting him. The police brought us both in, got our statements then basically told us to piss off and not waste their time on something like this again. And that was that. With so many psychopaths with guns running around shooting whoever the hell they want, who the hell cares about some twat who got his *** handed to him in a friendly wrestling match? The police aren't going to care, and if you take it to court chances are they will just fine you for wasting their time on such a ridiculous case.


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## Kenpoguy123 (Jun 28, 2016)

Midnight-shadow said:


> Geez, you guys are taking this whole situation way too far in my opinion. I see this event as no different to any other friendly sparring match. Assault? Excessive use of force? Domestic violence? From what I've read of the event none of this applies and quite frankly if the police did get involved chances are they will just tell you to piss off and stop wasting their time. Even hypothetically the scenario of getting the police involved is ridiculous.
> 
> Here's a story for you. When I was working out in Turkey I managed to piss someone off who then grabbed me by the throat. I waited until I was near to unconsciousness before I smacked him around the head, breaking his grip and releasing myself. He went to the police to report me for hitting him. The police brought us both in, got our statements then basically told us to piss off and not waste their time on something like this again. And that was that. With so many psychopaths with guns running around shooting whoever the hell they want, who the hell cares about some twat who got his *** handed to him in a friendly wrestling match? The police aren't going to care, and if you take it to court chances are they will just fine you for wasting their time on such a ridiculous case.


That's the point it wasnt friendly they don't like each other and ironbear even had to tell us before it all happened that he was going to punch him multiple times in the face for his ego


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 28, 2016)

Midnight-shadow said:


> no different to any other friendly sparring match



If this was your idea of 'friendly' then I really don't want to see what you think of as unfriendly. It really wasn't friendly, kenpoguy is correct, Ironbear was going to beat him up until someone here suggested a wrestling match instead, that may or may not have been a good idea, walking away would have been better.



Midnight-shadow said:


> Even hypothetically the scenario of getting the police involved is ridiculous.



No, The situation had the potential to get very nasty, it wasn't friendly and could have turned into a situation where the police would have been called whether for assault, domestic violence or breach of the peace etc. When tempers get frayed and the relationship between people including relatives breaks down there is a likelihood of damage being done both to people and property. I think you need to read the posts In the thread where ironbear talks about it rather than this one which is about consequences.


----------



## oftheherd1 (Jun 28, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> Look man. I am used to people not liking me, it really means nothing to me. No feelings hurt, nothing off my back. Calling me a kid isn't going to bother me, after all to you, I could very well be a kid and it seems that is the case.
> 
> *Most of us aren't when speaking generically.  You are never going to get all people to like you, but I do hope most people like me.  But they have to like me on my own terms.  And part of that is that I first have to like myself.  I worry that you don't like yourself yet, but aren't sure if you (1) can change, and (2) if you really want to change to what you know is right.  It kind of seems you wish to stay in familiar territory rather than face the fear of change in yourself*
> 
> ...






Ironbear24 said:


> I do know what my problems are. I constantly feel like what I do is never good enough, that's low self-esteem. I constantly seek positive reinforcement from others to help my self esteem problem. (Hence the sparring and fights)
> 
> *I know it sounds trite, but you first have to esteem yourself.  We all want most people to like us.  But that is not only unrealistic, but unhealthy.  Some people aren't worth being liked by, or are actually detrimental to our reputations and self image.  When you really like what you see in yourself, then those few who don't like you will not be important.  Again, you have to like yourself first though, to be able to make that assessment.*
> 
> ...



I have avoided posting, and perhaps I should continue that.  But I do believe along with you hoping we will tell you how good you are and your actions are OK, I think I detect some real willingness to be honest with yourself.  If I am correct, keep working on that.

But you really need to find good within yourself.  None of us are perfect; we all make mistakes in our lives.  But we must be able to admit, at least to ourselves, when we are wrong in our actions; big wrongs, little wrongs, all are wrongs.  And we mostly know what society and/or our religion considers right and wrong.  If we can admit to those around us, and especially those we have wronged, that we were wrong, so much the better.  I know, easier said than done, but easier done when we know ourselves and our shortcomings.

You are on a good path to come here, but don't come here to try and minimize wrongs you have done.  Most of us have already done those kind of things and managed to get above them.  For me, I certainly have, and am not proud of some things I have done.  I do feel good about progress I have made in being more mature, and not quick to do wrong.  You can too.

But it doesn't come easy or natural for many people.  You first have to see yourself as you are, then decide how you want to be, then seriously work toward that goal.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Jun 28, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> No I am actually trying to help you.  You have no clue how often in a fight, when the cops show up, it's not necessarily the person who "started it" that is the only one locked up.  They first person usually put in cuffs?  The guy winning/not bleeding.  Then MAYBE a neutral third party has the integrity to step forward and clear him.  If it is a he said/she said game the guy winning/not bleeding goes to jail.
> 
> Example, Saturday night, we had a HUGE brawl at a local banquet hall (we had to call in 5 surrounding PDs for manpower).  We hooked a bunch of people.  One of them was actually a victim but due to his demeanor and other circumstances he was a suspect as far as we were concerned, until a 60 odd year old women, whose Grand Kids I used to play with when I did community policing and who is (incidentally) one of the nicest ladies on earth, ran up to me and told me the guy was only trying to defend his 16 daughter from getting struck.  If that lady hadn't been there that guy would have gone to the station because we had no one impartial to vouch for him.
> 
> ...



So based on what you said, it sounds like if you defend yourself and win you get in trouble.


----------



## Ironbear24 (Jun 28, 2016)

PhotonGuy said:


> So based on what you said, it sounds like if you defend yourself and win you get in trouble.



This is pretty much why I decided to only take martial arts for sport. If you ever use it in self defense you pretty much get shamed for doing it because you are supposed to move mountains to avoid the fight at all costs.

In my opinion if someone attacks you it's on and they have no right to complain if they get beat up.


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## oftheherd1 (Jun 28, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> This is pretty much why I decided to only take martial arts for sport. If you ever use it in self defense you pretty much get shamed for doing it because you are supposed to move mountains to avoid the fight at all costs.
> 
> In my opinion if someone attacks you it's on and they have no right to complain if they get beat up.



Do you see how you are slipping back into dark territory? 

You have not taken MA just for sport, as proven by how you have used it up to this point.

If someone attacks you there is no shame in defending yourself.  But how about things that lead up to that attack.  You make no mention of how you might prevent the attack, from talking to walking away.  Did you just forget to say that, or do you wish to be attacked so you can show your prowess?

And you have complained about your sifu beating you up.  Do you think he had no right, when you put his school name at risk?


----------



## Ironbear24 (Jun 28, 2016)

oftheherd1 said:


> Do you see how you are slipping back into dark territory?
> 
> You have not taken MA just for sport, as proven by how you have used it up to this point.
> 
> ...



He was in the right. How often will you be attacked in public to where you need to spend hours upon hours training? Especially for something that will never happen. At least sport is more likely to happen than a self defense situation that can't be solved by walking/ running away or talking your way out of it.


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## Juany118 (Jun 28, 2016)

PhotonGuy said:


> So based on what you said, it sounds like if you defend yourself and win you get in trouble.


No, only if the force appears disproportional.  Somewhere else in this thread our OP doesn't have a scratch, the other guy has like a broken nose and broken glasses.  Now if no one else at that party steps up and says it was self defense, or consensual, and the guy bleeding says "I have been assaulted" what does the evidence tells us?  The Police aren't fact finders.  Their job is to simply ask "is their probable cause to believe this person committed a crime".  The Judges are the fact finders, determining if such cases proceed and then later if it results in a conviction.  

This is why I tell people, "don't let your pride get in the way. If you can walk away walk away."  Don't care about the fact that, at the time, our OP was concerned girls would think he was a chump, or that the other guys buddies my call ya a wimp or coward.  Self defense is to save yourself from Injury, not to save face.

Then you have the fact that many places make unsanctioned mutual fights illegal.   

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk


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## Ironbear24 (Jun 28, 2016)

Kenpoguy123 said:


> Man I was done commenting on this thread because it was pointless but that comment is stupid of course he can press charges you used your martial art training on someone and not in self defence. It's no different if I walk up to someone and slap them it may not cause any damage but it's still assault



Sure. I now understand laws protect cowards. I'll now in general treat everyone like they are looking for a reason to press charges.


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## EvanWinther (Jun 28, 2016)

Flatfish said:


> Let me try to help out:
> 
> "Swole" is part of the language of a certain subspecies of male gym dwellers in the US, commonly referred to as "Bros" or "Brahs". Since you are linguistically inclined, to the best of my knowledge the term "swole" derives from being swollen aka "pumped up" after lifting weights.
> 
> ...



I would just love to point out the fact someone voted this as informative hahaha


----------



## Kenpoguy123 (Jun 28, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> Sure. I now understand laws protect cowards. I'll now in general treat everyone like they are looking for a reason to press charges.


No it punishes thugs and bullies and protects decent people and yeah when it comes to fighting yeah that's exactly what you should do if someone attacks put them as quick as you can then get out of there if the guys on the ground not getting up don't keep going as soon as he hits the floor run away


----------



## EvanWinther (Jun 28, 2016)

Also

Show him you want to be there. Apologize, admit you were wrong, and if he still doesn't want you back, beg for it. Show up to class and show him you're still interested even if he doesn't let you participate. In my opinion this will earn your respect back, everyone tell me what they think


----------



## Ironbear24 (Jun 28, 2016)

Kenpoguy123 said:


> No it punishes thugs and bullies and protects decent people



Lol there are more holes in that than Swiss cheese. From what I read here its easily able to be manipulated and bastardized. It's honestly best to just avoid all contact with people in general.


----------



## Kenpoguy123 (Jun 28, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> This is pretty much why I decided to only take martial arts for sport. If you ever use it in self defense you pretty much get shamed for doing it because you are supposed to move mountains to avoid the fight at all costs.
> 
> In my opinion if someone attacks you it's on and they have no right to complain if they get beat up.


So what you think you go to an mma gym and you do what you've done and you'll be applauded? No of course not you'll be treated the exact same way and if you're only doing it for sport why are you training in a self defence style school


----------



## Ironbear24 (Jun 28, 2016)

EvanWinther said:


> Also
> 
> Show him you want to be there. Apologize, admit you were wrong, and if he still doesn't want you back, beg for it. Show up to class and show him you're still interested even if he doesn't let you participate. In my opinion this will earn your respect back, everyone tell me what they think



I'm still allowed to go back, just can't wear the uniform.


----------



## EvanWinther (Jun 28, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> I'm still allowed to go back, just can't wear the uniform.



Ohhh ok sorry for not reading the whole thing


----------



## Ironbear24 (Jun 28, 2016)

Kenpoguy123 said:


> So what you think you go to an mma gym and you do what you've done and you'll be applauded? No of course not you'll be treated the exact same way and if you're only doing it for sport why are you training in a self defence style school



What does an mma gym have anything to do with this? The dojo is both self defense and sport as they go to many competions.


----------



## Ironbear24 (Jun 28, 2016)

EvanWinther said:


> Ohhh ok sorry for not reading the whole thing



No worries.


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 28, 2016)

EvanWinther said:


> I would just love to point out the fact someone voted this as informative hahaha



And? Just because you know something does it make it amusing to you that someone takes the time to explain it to someone who doesn't know what it means? clicking 'informative' is another way to say thank you, we like to be polite here. Your amusement is strange.


----------



## Kenpoguy123 (Jun 28, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> No, only if the force appears disproportional.  Somewhere else in this thread our OP doesn't have a scratch, the other guy has like a broken nose and broken glasses.  Now if no one else at that party steps up and says it was self defense, or consensual, and the guy bleeding says "I have been assaulted" what does the evidence tells us?  The Police aren't fact finders.  Their job is to simply ask "is their probable cause to believe this person committed a crime".  The Judges are the fact finders, determining if such cases proceed and then later if it results in a conviction.
> 
> This is why I tell people, "don't let your pride get in the way. If you can walk away walk away."  Don't care about the fact that, at the time, our OP was concerned girls would think he was a chump, or that the other guys buddies my call ya a wimp or coward.  Self defense is to save yourself from Injury, not to save face.
> 
> ...



Your post reminds me of something my late instructor once said he was a police officer and he talked about the third person viewpoint. If a guy attacks you and he's punching you hard on the floor and a witness calls the police and you reverse and end up smashing the guy on the floor when the police turn they expect to see one guy beating up another guy and that's what they see. So they arrest the guy who was defending himself maybe he won't be charged but it's still on your record


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## EvanWinther (Jun 28, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> And? Just because you know something does it make it amusing to you that someone takes the time to explain it to someone who doesn't know what it means? clicking 'informative' is another way to say thank you, we like to be polite here. Your amusement is strange.



"Swole bro" kind of a funny joke, I thought it was funny someone wrote a description of it Not trying to point out its funny someone doesn't know what it is


----------



## EvanWinther (Jun 28, 2016)

There's too many replies to read them all: did you apologize to sifu ?


----------



## Kenpoguy123 (Jun 28, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> He was in the right. How often will you be attacked in public to where you need to spend hours upon hours training? Especially for something that will never happen. At least sport is more likely to happen than a self defense situation that can't be solved by walking/ running away or talking your way out of it.


If you think that's the case why the hell did you ever start training. Yeah you may never need it and you seem to thing that's a bad thing if I make it to the day I die without ever getting in a fight I will be a happy man and yeah you probably think I'm a coward but I don't care what you think and posts like this show your attitude absolutely sucks towards martial arts. Ed Parker once said his wife was once questioning why he trained so much and what the point was and then one day some punks were trying to cut him off and making him risk having a crash with his pregnant wife so he pulled over and the guys got out and attacked him. He put them down easily and he said at that point that one instant that 10 seconds of combat made all the years worthwhile because he defended everything that mattered to him.

That's what martial arts is defending yourself and the people you care about not picking up girls and showing off your muscles.


----------



## Ironbear24 (Jun 28, 2016)

EvanWinther said:


> There's too many replies to read them all: did you apologize to sifu ?



Yeah. He said I have to change my attitude if I want to not be kicked out and I said I'll do that .


----------



## Ironbear24 (Jun 28, 2016)

Kenpoguy123 said:


> If you think that's the case why the hell did you ever start training. Yeah you may never need it and you seem to thing that's a bad thing if I make it to the day I die without ever getting in a fight I will be a happy man and yeah you probably think I'm a coward but I don't care what you think and posts like this show your attitude absolutely sucks towards martial arts. Ed Parker once said his wife was once questioning why he trained so much and what the point was and then one day some punks were trying to cut him off and making him risk having a crash with his pregnant wife so he pulled over and the guys got out and attacked him. He put them down easily and he said at that point that one instant that 10 seconds of combat made all the years worthwhile because he defended everything that mattered to him.
> 
> That's what martial arts is defending yourself and the people you care about not picking up girls and showing off your muscles.



Why did he pull over? He must have been looking for a fight. He could have prevented it by not pulling over and just continued about his day.

You see what I mean? If I were to do this I'd be a bad guy, but if it's Ed Parker it's ok. People would have told me to just take the person's license plate and report them.


----------



## oftheherd1 (Jun 28, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> He was in the right. *How often will you be attacked in public to where you need to spend hours upon hours training?* Especially for something that will never happen. At least sport is more likely to happen than a self defense situation that can't be solved by walking/ running away or talking your way out of it.



Sadly, by your own past comments, you seem to have an inside track on answering the bolded part..

But I am done.  I feel like I am beating a dead horse.


----------



## Kenpoguy123 (Jun 28, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> Lol there are more holes in that than Swiss cheese. From what I read here its easily able to be manipulated and bastardized. It's honestly best to just avoid all contact with people in general.



Finally he gets it yes when it comes to fighting that's exactly what you should do avoid all contact when there's going to be trouble. Man people are trying their damm hardest to help you be a better person and you're just acting like a baby right now saying how it's so unfair and it's pointless to train if you don't want to fight


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## EvanWinther (Jun 28, 2016)

Cut him off repeatedly and risking him crashing, so he pulled over and the guys attacked him

He was at risk of his life


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## Kenpoguy123 (Jun 28, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> Why did he pull over? He must have been looking for a fight. He could have prevented it by not pulling over and just continued about his day.
> 
> You see what I mean? If I were to do this I'd be a bad guy, but if it's Ed Parker it's ok. People would have told me to just take the person's license plate and report them.


He pulled over because it was dangerous to keep driving if he'd tried to ignore it he would've crashed and hurt his wife because they were driving recklessly which put him in danger and he just pulled up the others could've just drived off but they were the ones looking for the fight


----------



## Ironbear24 (Jun 28, 2016)

Kenpoguy123 said:


> Finally he gets it yes when it comes to fighting that's exactly what you should do avoid all contact when there's going to be trouble. Man people are trying their damm hardest to help you be a better person and you're just acting like a baby right now saying how it's so unfair and it's pointless to train if you don't want to fight



Well I don't think it's pointless, it can still be fun to do it and can still help you be healthy. It just seems like any justified self defense situation will rarely ever happen if at all. 

By the boards definition I have never once in my life been in a fight where it was ok to do it, and I've been in about six or seven of them.


----------



## EvanWinther (Jun 28, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> Well I don't think it's pointless, it can still be fun to do it and can still help you be healthy. It just seems like any justified self defense situation will rarely ever happen if at all.
> 
> By the boards definition I have never once in my life been in a fight where it was ok to do it, and I've been in about six or seven of them.



Get into sparring!


----------



## Kenpoguy123 (Jun 28, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> Well I don't think it's pointless, it can still be fun to do it and can still help you be healthy. It just seems like any justified self defense situation will rarely ever happen if at all.
> 
> By the boards definition I have never once in my life been in a fight where it was ok to do it, and I've been in about six or seven of them.


Well the ones you've posted here no you weren't right at all in all of them you could've walked away but your ego got in the way. It's not self defence if you want to fight. All of the situations you've posted you could've just kept your mouth shut and walked away.

I'll always remember this johnathon mottram a 4th dan in ishinryu karate a world champion who'd been training all his life was doing a seminar with us and told us a story he was walking home one night and a guy pulled a knife on him and demanded he give him his trainers. You know what he did? Took off his shoes and walked home barefoot he knew it wasn't worth getting stabbed over a pair of shoes


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## EvanWinther (Jun 28, 2016)

I think you need some sparring- no fighting on the outside but if you think fighting is fun or whatever, you can spar


----------



## Kenpoguy123 (Jun 28, 2016)

EvanWinther said:


> I think you need some sparring- no fighting on the outside but if you think fighting is fun or whatever, you can spar


Oh yeah his instructor let him spar once and he injured a younger student so he's not allowed anymore


----------



## Ironbear24 (Jun 28, 2016)

Kenpoguy123 said:


> Well the ones you've posted here no you weren't right at all in all of them you could've walked away but your ego got in the way. It's not self defence if you want to fight. All of the situations you've posted you could've just kept your mouth shut and walked away.
> 
> I'll always remember this johnathon mottram a 4th dan in ishinryu karate a world champion who'd been training all his life was doing a seminar with us and told us a story he was walking home one night and a guy pulled a knife on him and demanded he give him his trainers. You know what he did? Took off his shoes and walked home barefoot he knew it wasn't worth getting stabbed over a pair of shoes



I don't understand, he could have easily destroyed the fool. Why give him the luxury of getting away with that?


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 28, 2016)

EvanWinther said:


> "Swole bro" kind of a funny joke, I thought it was funny someone wrote a description of it Not trying to point out its funny someone doesn't know what it is



Not a funny joke, just nonsense. As this thread is turning into.


----------



## Ironbear24 (Jun 28, 2016)

Kenpoguy123 said:


> Oh yeah his instructor let him spar once and he injured a younger student so he's not allowed anymore



That wasn't on purpose.


----------



## Kenpoguy123 (Jun 28, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> I don't understand, he could have easily destroyed the fool. Why give him the luxury of getting away with that?



No I'm sure you don't understand that's the whole problem yeah maybe he probably could've or he could've made a mistake and took a knife to the gut. If the guy had tried to stab yeah he would've taken him but since it was easy to avoid he avoided it. He defended himself he walked away from a dangerous situation with no injuries that's self defence whereas you would've tried to fight and may have ended up in hospital or worse


----------



## Kenpoguy123 (Jun 28, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Not a funny joke, just nonsense. As this thread is turning into.


Agreed he won't learn he'll get into another pointless fight he'll post about it here we'll all say the same the cycle will continue


----------



## Ironbear24 (Jun 28, 2016)

Kenpoguy123 said:


> No I'm sure you don't understand that's the whole problem yeah maybe he probably could've or he could've made a mistake and took a knife to the gut. If the guy had tried to stab yeah he would've taken him but since it was easy to avoid he avoided it. He defended himself he walked away from a dangerous situation with no injuries that's self defence whereas you would've tried to fight and may have ended up in hospital or worse



That's already happened before. Some prick attacked me with a pocket knife, then another time was a box cutter. I made fun of his gang and he got angry, so he took some skin off my arm and I took a lot of his teeth. I say I won on that trade. Like you said though, that was my fault it happened. The box cutter incident was my cousins fault but I could have walked away, so in the end it's still my fault.


----------



## Ironbear24 (Jun 28, 2016)

Kenpoguy123 said:


> Agreed he won't learn he'll get into another pointless fight he'll post about it here we'll all say the same the cycle will continue



No. I will not fight anymore. I don't want to get kicked of this dojo.


----------



## Kenpoguy123 (Jun 28, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> That's already happened before. Some prick attacked me with a pocket knife, then another time was a box cutter. I made fun of his gang and he got angry, so he took some skin off my arm and I took a lot of his teeth. I say I won on that trade. Like you said though, that was my fault it happened. The box cutter incident was my cousins fault but I could have walked away, so in the end it's still my fault.


Facepalm do you see why people are getting a bit POd at you


----------



## Ironbear24 (Jun 28, 2016)

Kenpoguy123 said:


> Facepalm do you see why people are getting a bit POd at you



Sort of. I am admitting it was my fault and a stupid situation. Being mad at myself for something so far in the past wouldn't make much sense.


----------



## Kenpoguy123 (Jun 28, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> Sort of. I am admitting it was my fault and a stupid situation. Being mad at myself for something so far in the past wouldn't make much sense.


You're obviously not learning from it which is the problem you get In one stupid fight ok it happens move on, get in 2 really need to take a look at yourself, 3 or more then you seriously need to get yourself sorted.


----------



## EvanWinther (Jun 28, 2016)

Alright this my last post here

Sifu doesn't let you spar because you hurt a younger student. You needed training on how to spar safely?

Once Sifu gives you back your gi tell him you want to spar and don't want to hurt anyone

Spar= avoid the need/want to fight


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## Ironbear24 (Jun 28, 2016)

Kenpoguy123 said:


> You're obviously not learning from it which is the problem you get In one stupid fight ok it happens move on, get in 2 really need to take a look at yourself, 3 or more then you seriously need to get yourself sorted.



What about 5 6 and 7? I know I have a problem. I already stated I won't fight anymore, if I have to swallow pride and look like a wuss then fine. I care more about continuing to go to this dojo than the opinions of idiots.


----------



## EvanWinther (Jun 28, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> I care more about continuing to go to this dojo than the opinions of idiots.



Respect


----------



## Flying Crane (Jun 28, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> No. I will not fight anymore. I don't want to get kicked of this dojo.


So...your motivation is that you don't want to get kicked out of the kwoon...has any bit of the stupidity and idiotic danger that fighting is, sunk in at all?  Does that mean anything to you?


----------



## Ironbear24 (Jun 28, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> So...your motivation is that you don't want to get kicked out of the kwoon...has any bit of the stupidity and idiotic danger that fighting is, sunk in at all?  Does that mean anything to you?



Of course. Getting cut with a knife hurts and I'd rather not do it a third time.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jun 28, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> What about 5 6 and 7? I know I have a problem. I already stated I won't fight anymore,* if I have to swallow pride and look like a wuss then fine*. I care more about continuing to go to this dojo than the opinions of idiots.



sorry, but I don't really think you have learned anything from all this


----------



## Flying Crane (Jun 28, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> Of course. Getting cut with a knife hurts and I'd rather not do it a third time.


Does hurting other people sit well with you?  Even those who might be asking for it?


----------



## Kenpoguy123 (Jun 28, 2016)

Right I'm out of this thread I've said all I can say and it's probably going to be all ignored next time someone calls him a coward


----------



## Phobius (Jun 28, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> What about 5 6 and 7? I know I have a problem. I already stated I won't fight anymore, if I have to swallow pride and look like a wuss then fine. I care more about continuing to go to this dojo than the opinions of idiots.



Problem here is that you are the wuss now. People are asking you not to be a wuss.

Swallow your pride? You are acting in an idiotic manner when it comes to fighting. Just as soon as someone calls you a chicken you jump straight to the gun because you are afraid what they will think of you if you don't.

I mean one can not be a bigger wuss than allowing fear to decide every move they make.

So once again, I am sorry if I am being offensive as it is not my intention, but you are being a wuss every time up til now. You are not being brave because you fight someone that might stab you, you are being afraid and fight out of fear because if you don't what will people think about you...

Besides you already think you will win, and as such chose the easy way out. Because it is the dumb choice you also get hurt sometimes by it.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jun 28, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> Sure. I now understand laws protect cowards. I'll now in general treat everyone like they are looking for a reason to press charges.



No. Laws protect normal, decent people from thugs and bullies. Don't be a thug or a bully and you won't have anything to worry about. This seems to be the root of your problems.


----------



## Juany118 (Jun 28, 2016)

Kenpoguy123 said:


> Your post reminds me of something my late instructor once said he was a police officer and he talked about the third person viewpoint. If a guy attacks you and he's punching you hard on the floor and a witness calls the police and you reverse and end up smashing the guy on the floor when the police turn they expect to see one guy beating up another guy and that's what they see. So they arrest the guy who was defending himself maybe he won't be charged but it's still on your record




It's not only that, it's a question of proportionality.  I'll recycle an example from earlier.  Let's say the OP and I know each other IRL.  He decides, for whatever reason, that he wants to kick my ***.  I know he trains in MA, I know he is a lot stronger than me, so I could justify using a force multiplier, say a disassembled pool cue, to neutralized the threat.  Now if he stopped attacking BUT I continued to swing, I have crossed a line.  If we both had the same strength/size I would not be justified is using a force multiplier but my duty to stop when he does would remain.  That is why I mentioned the issue with one person not having injuries.

The problem you have is this.  In a "he said, she said" argument all the Police have is the visual evidence.  Who has injuries and who doesn't.  Are the injuries consistent with being assaulted (broken nose), defensive (subject with scratches on the arms, consistent with a person scratch while being choked), offensive (bruised and/or bloody knuckles) etc.  If the people in the bar, of your scenario.  If the people in the bar say the guy on top was attacked first, as long as he doesn't go over the top, he will be detained and released, not arrested.  If he goes over the top, or the other bar patrons refuse to talk, he is arrested and then must make his case to a judge because it's all about what a cop can prove, not what he might know.


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 28, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> That wasn't on purpose.



Way to man up and take responsibility for your actions.


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## Ironbear24 (Jun 28, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> Does hurting other people sit well with you?  Even those who might be asking for it?



No the time I hurt that younger guy in sparring I felt terrible. The guy at the party I felt bad, because I felt like I went too far.

The other times I wanted to hurt them. I know that's bad but it's the honest truth. I am not proud of it but I feel like lying about it won't help anything.


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## Ironbear24 (Jun 28, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> Way to man up and take responsibility for your actions.



Literally everything I do or say. You will have an issue with it. Honestly what more can be done about it? I did that on accident, I apologized to him for it. Then I got banned from sparring until I learn better control. I didn't argue with the ban.

What more can be done about it?


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## Juany118 (Jun 28, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> No the time I hurt that younger guy in sparring I felt terrible. The guy at the party I felt bad, because I felt like I went too far.
> 
> The other times I wanted to hurt them. I know that's bad but it's the honest truth. I am not proud of it but I feel like lying about it won't help anything.


Well and I think this shows an important issue.  You lack control both physically and emotionally to one degree or another.  Twice in fights you went "to far" where you were not happy with the outcome.  The final time you actually crossed the line to wanting to hurt someone.  Now if it was just the first two I would say, "kid doesn't know his own strength, he may wish to talk to the Sifu about exercises he can do to better control the power behind his techniques.". The last one in the mix though has me concerned that maybe once aggression kicks in it runs away from you.  In that case may want to talk to your Sifu on stress relief or aggression control techniques.

That said, honest question.  For your weight program what kid of "supplements" if any, do you use.  Some actually increase aggressive tendencies.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk


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## Ironbear24 (Jun 28, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> Well and I think this shows an important issue.  You lack control both physically and emotionally to one degree or another.  Twice in fights you went "to far" where you were not happy with the outcome.  The final time you actually crossed the line to wanting to hurt someone.  Now if it was just the first two I would say, "kid doesn't know his own strength, he may wish to talk to the Sifu about exercises he can do to better control the power behind his techniques.". The last one in the mix though has me concerned that maybe once aggression kicks in it runs away from you.  In that case may want to talk to your Sifu on stress relief or aggression control techniques.
> 
> That said, honest question.  For your weight program what kid of "supplements" if any, do you use.  Some actually increase aggressive tendencies.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk



I used to inject testosterone but I dont anymore. Now I only take whey protein shakes.


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## Juany118 (Jun 28, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> I used to inject testosterone but I dont anymore. Now I only take whey protein shakes.


Okay, that's good.  The injections are one of the things I was talking about.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk


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## Flying Crane (Jun 28, 2016)

When did you stop taking the injections?  I don't know anything about them, but wonder if any aggression enhancement might last for a while after you stop.


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## Phobius (Jun 28, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> When did you stop taking the injections?  I don't know anything about them, but wonder if any aggression enhancement might last for a while after you stop.



Given that I doubt you get testosterone from your local doctor without having problems with your gland, the question is also whether or not he took testosterone or if it was some unknown thing purchased at local gym from his trusted pal.

A lot of questions and I dont think anyone should ever consider injecting testosterone without proper exam by his physician.


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## Ironbear24 (Jun 28, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> When did you stop taking the injections?  I don't know anything about them, but wonder if any aggression enhancement might last for a while after you stop.





Phobius said:


> Given that I doubt you get testosterone from your local doctor without having problems with your gland, the question is also whether or not he took testosterone or if it was some unknown thing purchased at local gym from his trusted pal.
> 
> A lot of questions and I dont think anyone should ever consider injecting testosterone without proper exam by his physician.



It was a long time ago. Maybe 8 months ago it something. I bought them from a guy at the gym. They were still in the packaging and everything so I know it was legitimate testosterone and not roids or something crazy.


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## Tez3 (Jun 28, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> It was a long time ago. Maybe 8 months ago it something. I bought them from a guy at the gym. They were still in the packaging and everything so I know it was legitimate testosterone and not roids or something crazy.



That is probably the most stupid thing I have heard for a long time. I have no more words other than YOU BLOODY IDIOT.


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## Ironbear24 (Jun 28, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> That is probably the most stupid thing I have heard for a long time. I have no more words other than YOU BLOODY IDIOT.



?. Because I bought them from someone who was not a doctor? Or using them in general?


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## Phobius (Jun 28, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> ?. Because I bought them from someone who was not a doctor? Or using them in general?



I think both options would work in this case. Injecting your body with testosterone without knowing your current levels of them is not normally a wise choice. Not to mention that thinking a package is proof of legitimate drugs, well it is dangerous to believe such a thing. In your case it probably was the real deal, and if it was not there is no way of knowing anyways at this point.

But what is done is done, it is not like you can undo that time. 8 months, if you are lucky it might be enough time to start becoming your normal self in bad case scenarios. If not, well there is nothing you can do about it anyways.


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## Juany118 (Jun 28, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> It was a long time ago. Maybe 8 months ago it something. I bought them from a guy at the gym. They were still in the packaging and everything so I know it was legitimate testosterone and not roids or something crazy.


The one thing is this, for future btw, since you stopped.  A lot of that stuff labeled as testosterone etc come from on-line distributors in Mexico and the like.  They forge labels so you think you are getting a good deal but in the end, if the stuff is testosterone, it's often stuff designed for animals and the like.

Back in the day I used to do Pro-Am road cycling and cyclocross.  One of the reasons I stopped was because I saw people shooting up stuff, on their own, and they couldn't even be 100% sure where the stuff came from.  I felt like I had the choice to keep being clean and just outside the top 10, or start using PEDs and risk my health.

Just as an example...
[media]




Sorry it's not in English, and no I wasn't in this race, this was a Euro Pro race, but the Trainer for the team was Ferrari, the same guy who later was Lance Armstrong's "prepatorie".  Those three guys have a completely different gear that the rest of the peleton, welcome to the age of steroids and EPO.  Who knows what it did to their bodies.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 28, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> No the time I hurt that younger guy in sparring I felt terrible. The guy at the party I felt bad, because I felt like I went too far.
> 
> The other times I wanted to hurt them. I know that's bad but it's the honest truth. I am not proud of it but I feel like lying about it won't help anything.



So basically you make a habit of beating people up, but it's ok because you feel bad about it afterwards. #facepalm



Ironbear24 said:


> Literally everything I do or say. You will have an issue with it. Honestly what more can be done about it? I did that on accident, I apologized to him for it. Then I got banned from sparring until I learn better control. I didn't argue with the ban.
> 
> What more can be done about it?



You can stop making ******** excuses for your actions.



Ironbear24 said:


> I used to inject testosterone but I dont anymore. Now I only take whey protein shakes.



AH, so foolish behavior and bad choices are not a new thing for you.



Ironbear24 said:


> It was a long time ago. Maybe 8 months ago it something. I bought them from a guy at the gym. They were still in the packaging and everything so I know it was legitimate testosterone and not roids or something crazy.



No, you don't. Fake drugs come in fake packaging. Regardless of whether it was testosterone or roids, it absolutely *was* "something crazy", and you are just about the last person who should be screwing up their chemistry, given the lack of control and judgement and the outright despicable behavior you demonstrate.



Ironbear24 said:


> ?. Because I bought them from someone who was not a doctor? Or using them in general?



Yes.


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## Juany118 (Jun 28, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> ?. Because I bought them from someone who was not a doctor? Or using them in general?



All of the above, you bought it from a guy in a gym with no proper way to know what it really was or how to use it.

When you inject testosterone it actually interferes with your body producing it own.  Your body basically says "oh we already have more than enough testosterone in our system, stop making it glands."  That is actually how they test for it in competition, because exogeneous testosterone looks different than the stuff your body produces.  This suppression of natural production can last for a long time and is not just related to how long you used the exogeneous testosterone but how large the doses were and what the actual purpose was (animal or human) consumption.

It is quite simply dangerous to do without the supervision of a physician and is only recommended for people suffering from low T.

You've gotten "better" but the initial use was dangerous to the point of near idiocy


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## Ironbear24 (Jun 28, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> The one thing is this, for future btw, since you stopped.  A lot of that stuff labeled as testosterone etc come from on-line distributors in Mexico and the like.  They forge labels so you think you are getting a good deal but in the end, if the stuff is testosterone, it's often stuff designed for animals and the like.
> 
> Back in the day I used to do Pro-Am road cycling and cyclocross.  One of the reasons I stopped was because I saw people shooting up stuff, on their own, and they couldn't even be 100% sure where the stuff came from.  I felt like I had the choice to keep being clean and just outside the top 10, or start using PEDs and risk my health.
> 
> ...



When my doctor found out about it becuase the marks on me from injection she got angry and told me to stop. She explained that it can lead to many health problems such as cancer and future hormonal imbalance so I quit doing it.

Now if given the choice between any performance enhancing substance or performing less than those cheaters. I'll just take the lower performance. Also I feel like I don't need them, when I was on them my max bench was 270. I was stuck there for a long time and when I hit 280 and later on went beyond that I was off the shots.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 28, 2016)

I guess the real picture is coming clear.

I really do hope it gets better for you, that you haven't done lasting damage to yourself and you can straighten out your behavior before there are some really serious consequences.

You might need professional help to get through it.


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## Kenpoguy123 (Jun 28, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> That is probably the most stupid thing I have heard for a long time. I have no more words other than YOU BLOODY IDIOT.


Damm that must be really stupid if that's the worst you've read considering all of his posts on here


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## Tames D (Jun 28, 2016)

My apologies to Tez and Ironbear. I didn't realize how bad my attitude got.
On another note, this thread reminds me of a Filibuster


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## Tez3 (Jun 28, 2016)

Kenpoguy123 said:


> Damm that must be really stupid if that's the worst you've read considering all of his posts on here



No, it's just the most direct I can think I can get away with here.


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## ShawnP (Jun 28, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> I don't understand, he could have easily destroyed the fool. Why give him the luxury of getting away with that?


that depends on how you look at things Ironbear. if a poor homeless person walked up to you on the street, pulled out a knife and said give me a dollar for a burger, would you beat the ever lovin hell out of him or just give him the damn dollar? there was nothing to prove, nothing worth defending and i bet he looks at that guy as just that, a fool, not worthy of fighting with over some sneakers. one thing people here are forgetting as well, there is much more to MAs than learning techniques, forms, weapons, defense...there is a mental side to MAs. Learn to grow "Mentally" not just "Physically" like the way you carry yourself, speak to others, treat others. this is an area of MAs im quite familiar with because i too have trouble in this area of life. i dont know your family background or your upbringing but i feel this may have some thing to do with how you are. your not a bad guy you just make bad decisions and need to learn to make good ones and id bet that Uncle of yours can teach you a thing or 2 about respect. i also have an Uncle who is an abusive OCD control freak and takes pokes at me every chance he gets but as much as he pisses me off, insults me, and his favorite thing to do, stab me with knives, i wont strike him because i understand him and accept him for who he is, i learn from him every day and i tell him that when i can because i know he doesnt do these things to "hurt me" but to teach me humility and lashing out is wrong (which is why i live in his house at this time) i was/am you in a lot of ways but i am learning to change the way i look at the world and the people in it. So i say dont stop training but in fact go get more training, the correct training that your missing, the "Mental" side of your training to learn to deal with morons who want nothing more but to start trouble and suck you into it, the over bearing OCD abusive Uncles, and most importantly YOU. Go ask your Sifu if he can help with this or if he knows any avenues for you look into, a counselor or a social worker, some thing or someone who can help you on that path.
i will tell you my avenue was AA/NA/GA anonymous. no i was not nor am i an alcoholic, drug addict, or gambler but my best friend and father figure/mentor was and i would attend meetings with him regularly and i learned quite a bit about myself and others out on the streets. Im not saying this is an avenue for you personally but it put me on the path to realizing i had issues to deal with and still do, and im sure i will have some thing to better about myself until i die and i feel so does the rest of the human race. Maybe a religion would work for you, or a specific way of life, a B.I.G. Brother, YMCA, or some thing but i really wish you the best in finding that path and growing "Mentally"
apologies in advance if i have offended anyone or over stepped my bounds here.


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## Juany118 (Jun 28, 2016)

ShawnP said:


> that depends on how you look at things Ironbear. if a poor homeless person walked up to you on the street, pulled out a knife and said give me a dollar for a burger, would you beat the ever lovin hell out of him or just give him the damn dollar? there was nothing to prove, nothing worth defending and i bet he looks at that guy as just that, a fool, not worthy of fighting with over some sneakers. one thing people here are forgetting as well, there is much more to MAs than learning techniques, forms, weapons, defense...there is a mental side to MAs. Learn to grow "Mentally" not just "Physically" like the way you carry yourself, speak to others, treat others. this is an area of MAs im quite familiar with because i too have trouble in this area of life. i dont know your family background or your upbringing but i feel this may have some thing to do with how you are. your not a bad guy you just make bad decisions and need to learn to make good ones and id bet that Uncle of yours can teach you a thing or 2 about respect. i also have an Uncle who is an abusive OCD control freak and takes pokes at me every chance he gets but as much as he pisses me off, insults me, and his favorite thing to do, stab me with knives, i wont strike him because i understand him and accept him for who he is, i learn from him every day and i tell him that when i can because i know he doesnt do these things to "hurt me" but to teach me humility and lashing out is wrong (which is why i live in his house at this time) i was/am you in a lot of ways but i am learning to change the way i look at the world and the people in it. So i say dont stop training but in fact go get more training, the correct training that your missing, the "Mental" side of your training to learn to deal with morons who want nothing more but to start trouble and suck you into it, the over bearing OCD abusive Uncles, and most importantly YOU. Go ask your Sifu if he can help with this or if he knows any avenues for you look into, a counselor or a social worker, some thing or someone who can help you on that path.
> i will tell you my avenue was AA/NA/GA anonymous. no i was not nor am i an alcoholic, drug addict, or gambler but my best friend and father figure/mentor was and i would attend meetings with him regularly and i learned quite a bit about myself and others out on the streets. Im not saying this is an avenue for you personally but it put me on the path to realizing i had issues to deal with and still do, and im sure i will have some thing to better about myself until i die and i feel so does the rest of the human race. Maybe a religion would work for you, or a specific way of life, a B.I.G. Brother, YMCA, or some thing but i really wish you the best in finding that path and growing "Mentally"
> apologies in advance if i have offended anyone or over stepped my bounds here.


I have to agree with this.  There is a reason my first Martial Art out of the army was not me returning to European style fencing but Aikido.  I wanted to be a Cop, and between pre-Army and then Military training as a Scout I had a problem.  I was always the skinny "artsy kid" in High School so had more than a little bullying.  

I dealt with the bullying like a fictional character named "Ender Wiggins".  I ignored words, tried to avoid fights but if a bully cornered me and wanted to beat me to prove a point I would use the nearest hard object as a weapon; spine of a text book, chair, whatever to beat him in such a way that I won all future fights because the bully would never try it again.  I dropped out of college in patriotic fervor created by GW 1 and now I had that attitude along with the aggression and skill set of a Cavalry Scout.  NOT a good combination for a cop imo.  

So I looked around and found Aikido.  The instructor was VERY big on Zen Meditation, and the Meditation along with the Aikido techniques themselves, learning to go with the flow not just while being attacked but while attacking so a throw or wrist lock didn't break something, all slowly did two things.
1. Got the aggression under control because the mindfulness of the meditation let me see how it can control you, forcing you to attack when you can avoid and make it so you resist another's energy when the best way to avoid injury is to flow with their energy.

2. It also let me see that my time in the military and continuing in MA meant I could be confident enough in myself that whenever I was forced to fight I did not always have to default to the "nuclear" option to prevent future conflicts.  

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

Now I don't study Aikido formally now, just practice some of their techniques, but I credit Aikido for in some ways helping me with the more "direct" arts I study now, WC and Kali.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 28, 2016)

I like to think that the mental side is simply part of being a good human, and has no real connection to martial arts.  I know a lot of people like to see that connection, but I think it's actually bigger than that, and more simple.

Just be a good person and do the right thing.


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## Juany118 (Jun 28, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> I like to think that the mental side is simply part of being a good human, and has no real connection to martial arts.  I know a lot of people like to see that connection, but I think it's actually bigger than that, and more simple.
> 
> Just be a good person and do the right thing.


The thing is though it's not about being good or bad.  The nicest guy on the face of the planet can have an unhealthy response to aggression, or lack the confidence to defend themselves at all.  This imo is where martial arts comes in.  

Martial arts can help build confidence and also help provide control in aggressive situations.  Often an overreaction in terms of force in a self defense encounter occurs because the person only has one speed, thanks to natural fight/flight mechanisms.  So you can overreact in terms of force used in self defense because the primal fight gear has kicked in but cognitively you think "I am doing the right thing, I am defending myself and/or my loved one.". Martial arts can teach you that there are many speeds as well as teach you how to shift gears.  The difference between the "good" person or the "bad" is what is in your mindset walking in the door.  Are you looking for the confidence and/or self control along with the self defense aspect or are you looking to simply be better at thumping people.  The former is a good person and always was, the later not so much.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk


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## PhotonGuy (Jun 28, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> No, only if the force appears disproportional.  Somewhere else in this thread our OP doesn't have a scratch, the other guy has like a broken nose and broken glasses.  Now if no one else at that party steps up and says it was self defense, or consensual, and the guy bleeding says "I have been assaulted" what does the evidence tells us?  The Police aren't fact finders.  Their job is to simply ask "is their probable cause to believe this person committed a crime".  The Judges are the fact finders, determining if such cases proceed and then later if it results in a conviction.
> 
> This is why I tell people, "don't let your pride get in the way. If you can walk away walk away."  Don't care about the fact that, at the time, our OP was concerned girls would think he was a chump, or that the other guys buddies my call ya a wimp or coward.  Self defense is to save yourself from Injury, not to save face.
> 
> ...



Somebody from New York State told me that if you get into a confrontation and your assailant is hurt worse than you that you will get in trouble even if they took the first punch. According to them that's how it is in New York State and if thats true than NY is not all that self defense friendly.


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## PhotonGuy (Jun 28, 2016)

Its been said on this thread that consensual fights are legal and that if that weren't the case that boxers would get in trouble for fighting in a boxing match. Well this is the way I see it, when boxers fight in a match they are doing so under a licensed organization. If two boxers decided to slug it out in the street even if they both gave their consent they would get in trouble and get arrested. So in order to legally fight somebody you have to go through the proper legal procedures to do so.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 28, 2016)

PhotonGuy said:


> Somebody from New York State told me that if you get into a confrontation and your assailant is hurt worse than you that you will get in trouble even if they took the first punch. According to them that's how it is in New York State and if thats true than NY is not all that self defense friendly.


Not entirely. We've talked about it a couple of times on here, but it's essentially whether or not you used reasonable force to defend yourself. If you don't "reasonably" suspect your life is in danger but still beat the snot out of them than you'll be in trouble. If you respond with appropriate force to their intended level of attack than hour fine. 

Either way it doesn't really effect anything as Ironbear doesn't live in NY


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## moonhill99 (Jun 28, 2016)

I think Ironbear is confusing self defense with beating up.

In most places it is crime and arrestable offense to beat up the bad guy. In some culture and law it is even crime to rough up a bad guy.

Yes beating up a burglar, robber or criminal would put you in jail.

And even rough up a bad guy is looked down on in many places in Europe by the public or by the police.


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## moonhill99 (Jun 28, 2016)

kempodisciple said:


> Not entirely. We've talked about it a couple of times on here, but it's essentially whether or not you used reasonable force to defend yourself. If you don't "reasonably" suspect your life is in danger but still beat the snot out of them than you'll be in trouble. If you respond with appropriate force to their intended level of attack than hour fine.
> 
> Either way it doesn't really effect anything as Ironbear doesn't live in NY



Only place by law and culture acceptance he could get away with this in probably some places in say Africa or Asia. If he moved there.

But some culture probably just cut of hand or shoot the burglar or robber as crime punishment. So no need to beat the bad guy up.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 28, 2016)

moonhill99 said:


> Only place by law and culture acceptance he could get away with this in probably some places in say Africa or Asia. If he moved there.
> 
> But some culture probably just cut of hand or shoot the burglar or robber as crime punishment. So no need to beat the bad guy up.


Im not saying anything about what is or isn't allowed wherever he lives (I have michigan in my mind but I could be way off) since I don't know the laws there. Just that it's not New York, so NY self-defense laws don't really have any bearing on the subject. Of course, half of the stuff in this thread haven't had any bearing, but still worth pointing out IMO.


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## RTKDCMB (Jun 29, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> "Friend zone"


A bit like the 'Phantom Zone'.


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## drop bear (Jun 29, 2016)

kempodisciple said:


> Not entirely. We've talked about it a couple of times on here, but it's essentially whether or not you used reasonable force to defend yourself. If you don't "reasonably" suspect your life is in danger but still beat the snot out of them than you'll be in trouble. If you respond with appropriate force to their intended level of attack than hour fine.
> 
> Either way it doesn't really effect anything as Ironbear doesn't live in NY



It depends if he lies. Laws are great but they are interpreted by people.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 29, 2016)

drop bear said:


> It depends if he lies. Laws are great but they are interpreted by people.


very true. Im just referring to the law in general though..depending on the jury and the people  in question, a situation that results in the initial attacker getting in trouble could just as easily have had the opposite result.


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## Blindside (Jun 29, 2016)

Kenpoguy123 said:


> Exactly not all styles have competition. What about tai chi or aikido (not sure if aikido has competition but I don't think so but I could be wrong)


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## Tez3 (Jun 29, 2016)

PhotonGuy said:


> Somebody from New York State told me that if you get into a confrontation and your assailant is hurt worse than you that you will get in trouble even if they took the first punch. According to them that's how it is in New York State and if thats true than NY is not all that self defense friendly.



That's hardly a reliable source and is very foggy in it's wording, I imagine like most place it depends on circumstances.



PhotonGuy said:


> If two boxers decided to slug it out in the street even if they both gave their consent they would get in trouble and get arrested. So in order to legally fight somebody



Not necessarily, we have bare knuckle fights quite often in car parks and fields, no one gets into trouble for them. besides the police don't have to arrest, they can move people on and give them warnings and cautions. Arresting isn't the only option available.



moonhill99 said:


> In most places it is crime and arrestable offense to beat up the bad guy. In some culture and law it is even crime to rough up a bad guy.



More nonsense because it's so vague, there is no law anywhere that says ' _it is a criminal_ _offence to beat up a bad guy'_ lol, there's laws on assault and circumstances, again, will decide whether an offence has been committed.



moonhill99 said:


> Yes beating up a burglar, robber or criminal would put you in jail.



How do you keep coming up with this stuff? *circumstances are all,* you are allowed to use reasonable force to defend yourself, if you go around beating people up for no other reason than you think you should you are committing criminal offences yourself and no better than those you think are criminals.



moonhill99 said:


> And even rough up a bad guy is looked down on in many places in Europe by the public or by the police.



More meaningless twaddle, when ' bad guys' are roughed up there are never police or public around, it's part of the criminal world and not seen usually by the rest. No one is stupid enough to walk up to someone and start beating them up because they are a 'bad guy'.


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## Ironbear24 (Jun 29, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> That's hardly a reliable source and is very foggy in it's wording, I imagine like most place it depends on circumstances.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The funny thing is he is arguing about this with police officers. As if you guys don't know your job lol.


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## moonhill99 (Jun 29, 2016)

More nonsense because it's so vague, there is no law anywhere that says ' _it is a criminal_ _offence to beat up a bad guy'_ lol, there's laws on assault and circumstances, again, will decide whether an offence has been committed.

What a load of nonsense. As number of family member being a police officers and have done ride one with them, most family domestic assaults arrest are slap or push or a combative suspect.

Please spend some time doing a ride on program with law enforcement in your area. I have done ride on program with law enforcement. Most of my my family are in law enforcement.

No assault, slap or push is required for arrest.  If you are combative and the police believe you may assaults your ex or wife you will be ask to leave or be taken to jail.

I seen many people taken to jail with no blood or bruise. I have seen people taken to jail for slap and even a push.

I have seen people taken for jail for yelling and screaming.

 Beating up person means there is blood and bruise this is  assault battery. The person may or may not be sent to the hospital.

Please don't confuse the word beating up vs roughing up. If you assault a suspect no matter the crime and he is all bloody and looks beaten up and you look all fine, it not even going fly in most conservatives courts in south of you saying you using self defense.

A roundhouse kick to head for drunk standing in door way is going look really bad in court.


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## drop bear (Jun 29, 2016)

Disproportionate force is what you are trying to get at there.


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## moonhill99 (Jun 29, 2016)

Other thing if you spend some time seeing streets fights on the street. Lot of time two people are going at it, well other people are standing around watching. When person gets taken to the ground or some one starts using lot of kicks people start to jump in.

This why in street fight I would never fight on the ground. Also I don't care how good you at Taekwondo or how much training you have it does not sit well with public and the courts even the most conservatives courts.

Kicks to head are dirty fighting and it does not sit well with courts and most of the public.

If you tried to do that more people will jump in fight you or try to stop the fight.


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## moonhill99 (Jun 29, 2016)

Other thing as caution here. 

When cops show up and see two people fighting they don't know who started the fight and who is the aggressive person and what is going on.  Be advised you both be ask to sit on ground or be put in handcuffs well the officer does a investigation. If there is no other people around to back up your story you could be the the one taken to jail.

Be very careful jumping in.

And in hood many of people on street could be friends with the bad guy so they have no problem lying to the police and saying you started it and did this and that.


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## moonhill99 (Jun 29, 2016)

Quote More meaningless twaddle, when ' bad guys' are roughed up there are never police or public around, it's part of the criminal world and not seen usually by the rest. No one is stupid enough to walk up to someone and start beating them up because they are a 'bad guy'.Quote


No you don't understand what I'm saying.

If some one breaks into my home I can kick the person or use baseball bat on the bad guy say he is going after me!! no problem !!! If he is on ground and I continue to kick him or strike him with base ball bat that is no longer self defense.

If some one slaps me or push me and I go all Steven Seagal on him that is no longer self defense.

If the public or police officer goes Steven Seagal on a suspect pulling away or resisting( not attacking the officer)  that is no longer self defense.


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## moonhill99 (Jun 29, 2016)

Quote How do you keep coming up with this stuff? *circumstances are all,* you are allowed to use reasonable force to defend yourself, if you go around beating people up for no other reason than you think you should you are committing criminal offences yourself and no better than those you think are criminals.Quote

No no no .

No, I'm NOT talking about the Hollywood good cop and bad cop. The Clint Eastwood and Steven Seagal roughing up the bad guy is Hollywood thing and does not happen in real world. Police don't do that. That is Hollywood thing.

It is crime to bust heads to get info or teach the bad guy a lesson for crime he done.

Whoooo you a shoplifter, burglar or robber you getting whopping is Hollywood thing. If the public or police officer did it he or she will be in jail.

Now if the mad guy is fighting you well you can defend yourself but if he is on ground and not moving that it. Any more it is not self defense.

Likewise if he than stops fighting you or tries to runway.  Than self defense is over.


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## Kickboxer101 (Jun 29, 2016)

My god is this thread still going on


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## Tez3 (Jun 29, 2016)

moonhill99 said:


> Please spend some time doing a ride on program with law enforcement in your area


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## Tez3 (Jun 29, 2016)

moonhill99 said:


> What a load of nonsense. As number of family member being a police officers and have done ride one with them


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## Tez3 (Jun 29, 2016)

moonhill99 said:


> No no no .
> 
> No, I'm NOT talking about the Hollywood good cop and bad cop. The Clint Eastwood and Steven Seagal roughing up the bad guy is Hollywood thing and does not happen in real world. Police don't do that. That is Hollywood thing.
> 
> ...


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 29, 2016)

moonhill99 said:


> Please spend some time doing a ride on program with law enforcement in your area. I have done ride on program with law enforcement. Most of my my family are in law enforcement.



Ummm.... as I recall, Tez3 spent a great deal of her life in, of all things... law enforcement.
Something you might want to consider before you continue trying to (as the British say...) teach your grandmother to suck eggs.


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## PhotonGuy (Jun 29, 2016)

Phobius said:


> Swallow your pride? You are acting in an idiotic manner when it comes to fighting. Just as soon as someone calls you a chicken you jump straight to the gun because you are afraid what they will think of you if you don't.


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## Grenadier (Jun 30, 2016)

*Admin's note:*

Thread closed, pending staff review.


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