# Karate do Kyohan  Funakoshi reflection of Itosu



## Victor Smith (Aug 24, 2011)

If you're at all interested in seeing Funakoshi's 1935 applications of Karate technique my current blog should be of interest.  

http://isshin-concentration.blogspot.com/2011/08/karate-do-kyohan-funakoshi-reflection.html


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## punisher73 (Aug 24, 2011)

Thanks for sharing.  I think that Funakoshis other book "Karate-Do Nyumon: The Master Introductory Text" is interesting as well to beginning karate students.  Especially for Isshin-ryu students, Funakoshi shares his "Ten-no-kata" which is what inspired many of Shimabuku's upper body basics.

I know for me, I tend to forget how small Okinawa actually is and how much contact all of those past masters had with each other (not saying that Funakoshi and Shimabuku exchanged info, just in general).


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## Victor Smith (Aug 24, 2011)

As the Sutrisno family Shotokan tradition is from the 1930's the Ten No Kata isn't part of their tradition and not much of my focus. As to whether Ten No Kata had a influence on Shimabuku Tatsuo I have no direct idea. I'm unaware of Shotokan being practiced on Okinawa in the 40's or 50's when that influence would have had to occur.  Possible but Funakoshi Sensei and Shimabuku Sensei are very different generations and as Funakoshi Sensei moved to Japan in 1922 and never returned to Okinawa it seems hard to me to make a direct connection. Not impossible especially if someone else was the information source but to date the theory seems to me not to be of Okinawan origins. If there is an Okinawan source for this I would change my opinion.

Thanks,


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## punisher73 (Aug 25, 2011)

Here is a brief history of Ten no Kata:


> Shotokan's Ten no kata / Omoto Ten (The Kata of the Universe)
> 
> This kata has relatively modern roots, being formulated around 1941 by Gichin Funakoshi (some sources claim it was actually Gichin Funakoshi's son Yoshitaka).  Ten no kata consists of two complementary parts, front (Omote) and back (Ura).
> 
> ...



A quick description of Ten no kata (each one is performed on each side)

1) Lunge Punch to solar plexus
2) Lunge Punch to chin
3) Reverse Punch to solar plexus
4) Reverse Punch to chin
5) Down Block/Revese Punch to solar plexus
6) Outward Middle Block/Reverse Punch to solar plexus
7) Outward Knifehand Block/Spearhand
8) Outward Knifehand Block/Reverse Punch to chin
9) Upper Block/Reverse Punch to chin
10) Inward Middle Block/Reverse Punch to solar plexus

As you can see, the order and content are very close to Shimabuku's upper body basics with his own stamp and style emphasis on them, but the pattern is recognizable.  There are other versions of "Ten no Kata" taught on Okinawa by Goju Ryu and Shito Ryu which would be recognized as Taikyoku in Shotokan.  Again, in my post I said that I was NOT making the jump that Shimabuku exchanged ideas with Funakoshi/Shotokan, just that alot of ideas _were _exchanged back and forth between people.  It could have even been that Shimabuku saw the book containing the kata or a student from Japan returning and performing the kata and liked the idea of the basics and teaching fighting applications from the get go and adopted and transformed it to what he wanted in Isshin-Ryu.  I think this is one of those pieces that we will never know.


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## Victor Smith (Aug 25, 2011)

It's undeniable they are similar but as to the source no idea.

Actually we rarely work the upper body chart, that's left more for the individual.

I concentrate more on kata these 38 years, including my students, which covers the same material eventually.

What one Isshinryu group uses as 'mantra' is not universal, and this is directly the way my instructors taught me too.

As I understand it there are few that use Ten-No-Kata these days in Shotokan, but just from discussions, not personal knowledge.


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## punisher73 (Aug 25, 2011)

From what I have heard, most Shotokan schools have dropped the Ten No Kata and many times you won't even see it listed on the "official" kata lists of some big associations, most view it as a very elementary exercise to introduce ippon kumite without a partner.  The next step in the Ten No Kata was to practice the steps in a one step sparring manner.  I think most dropped it because they felt it redundant with the other kata and material.

I visited an Isshin-Ryu school and their main focus was alot on the upper body chart so that is my VERY limited personal exposure, and then some accounts from Isshin-Ryu students/teachers that talked about the emphasis on the charts.  But, I shouldn't be surprised as with all things "it depends". 

I tried finding the original article where I first saw the person draw the correlation between IR and Ten No Kata, but I can't find it on the web any longer.  As a history buff, I would be very interested in finding out the connection/influence.


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## Victor Smith (Aug 25, 2011)

The article you are referring to was by Chris Thomas (who later left Isshinryu to affiliate with George Dillman, helped him write his books and of course rank). But that article didn't do more than raise a possible connection. There is literally nothing from Shimabuku Sensei to explain his changes and choices but oral history and this connection wasn't described.

Shimabuku used the charts for his own daily practice. They are fine but I choose to focus more on kata and only use the upper body chart on occasion, though they are a sho-dan initiation requirement.  Many of us would go to class early and work them on our own and I prefer that practice to this day rather than use class time.

All arts vary by dojo to dojo, such is life.


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## Makalakumu (Aug 26, 2011)

I studied this book extensively as I was writing my book.  My impression is that by the time this book was written a lot of the grappling applications had already been moved off the syllabus.  If you look at the throwing techniques, they are all at the back of the book for the most part, and they aren't really tied to any kata.  One had to have known the kata inside and out in order to recognize the moves.  Why this was done is something I've always struggled to understand.  

Also, if one looks at the kata, certain moves are unmistakable.  The kata guruma in wansu for example, is obvious.  Why didn't people question more?  Why did people keep practicing this art for decades and make up all kinds of stories about these moves?


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## Victor Smith (Aug 26, 2011)

One answer may be the explanation of how karate technique works by Shiroma Shimpan in Nakasone's "Karate-Do Taikian". Shiroma was also a student of Itosu making him a contemporary of Funakoshi Ginchin.

Simply there are additional techniques added (not in the kata). As there were no 'rules' there was no reason that other choices were not available, and taught by the instructor as appropriate via private transmission.  A much expanded version of this taught as bunkai in the Shotokan I studied from Tristan Sutrisno, whose father trained in Japan in the 30's.

Thus throwing techniques don't have to be in the kata to be part of the original studies. This makes kata the basic toolbox but not a total limit of what karate is. Interesting then Shiroma, Funakoshi and Mutsu Mizuo (a student of Funakoshi at one time who wrote the 1933 "Karate Kempo" with 1/2 the text showing karate applications) demonstrate the applications of karate but didn't tie any of their demonstrations into kata. Sure some can be seen directly as kata techniques others not so clearly.

Perhaps the karate of Itosu had a vision of Karate much greater than kata, and kept the hidden aspect of older training so kata performance could not give everything away.

Sure just speculation, but provoking to me.

As to why people didn't question, well karate is taught in the dojo not from books after all, and perhaps the student always followed their seniors. As to questioning, many did break away, Mutsu as one example, and that might be one reason. The JKA then was those who didn't break away and believed in what they developed. So Funakoshi might be the 'first cause' but not the final arbitrator..


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## punisher73 (Aug 26, 2011)

Makalakumu said:


> I studied this book extensively as I was writing my book. My impression is that by the time this book was written a lot of the grappling applications had already been moved off the syllabus. If you look at the throwing techniques, they are all at the back of the book for the most part, and they aren't really tied to any kata. One had to have known the kata inside and out in order to recognize the moves. Why this was done is something I've always struggled to understand.
> 
> Also, if one looks at the kata, certain moves are unmistakable. The kata guruma in wansu for example, is obvious. Why didn't people question more? Why did people keep practicing this art for decades and make up all kinds of stories about these moves?



Yet, if you look at the same moves from "Enpi" which is the Shotokan version, it isn't obvious.  The moves are similiar, but instead of the entry and throw it has a jumping spinning move that would NOT translate to a throw by looking at the moves.  Here is a version of Enpi from a 10th Dan master of Shotokan, the throw should occur at about 1:33 seconds





Now look at an older version from Okinawa from Chotoku Kyan's lineage, throw occurs around 35 seconds





Funakoshi performing Empi kata, throw occurs around 35 seconds




 
Applications may have been known, but you had Itosu who made changes to the kata to make them more widespread, and then you had Funakoshi make further changes to make it even more widespread.  So many moves became obscured and ridiculous applications were made up to explain them.


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## punisher73 (Aug 26, 2011)

Victor Smith said:


> The article you are referring to was by Chris Thomas (who later left Isshinryu to affiliate with George Dillman, helped him write his books and of course rank). But that article didn't do more than raise a possible connection. There is literally nothing from Shimabuku Sensei to explain his changes and choices but oral history and this connection wasn't described.
> 
> Shimabuku used the charts for his own daily practice. They are fine but I choose to focus more on kata and only use the upper body chart on occasion, though they are a sho-dan initiation requirement. Many of us would go to class early and work them on our own and I prefer that practice to this day rather than use class time.
> 
> All arts vary by dojo to dojo, such is life.



Yep, your are correct.  I'm not sure that he was the source that I originally read, but I think his idea of Ten no Kata as the basis of the upper body charts has been passed onto some IR schools.  Here are a couple of articles he wrote for BB magazine talking about it.

http://books.google.com/books?id=o9...&resnum=2&ved=0CBkQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false (article talking and comparing the Ten no Kata with the upper body charts)

http://books.google.com/books?id=ytcDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA21&dq=tatsuo+shimabuku+ten+no+kata&hl=en&ei=_5xXTv_9KpO4tgezmPGaDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=tatsuo%20shimabuku%20ten%20no%20kata&f=false (first article talking about the alleged shotokan/IR connection which also states that there was NO direct contact between the two founders and offers some speculations about the similarity of the Ten no Kata/Upper body charts)


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## Makalakumu (Aug 26, 2011)

punisher73 said:


> Yet, if you look at the same moves from "Enpi" which is the Shotokan version, it isn't obvious.  The moves are similiar, but instead of the entry and throw it has a jumping spinning move that would NOT translate to a throw by looking at the moves.  Here is a version of Enpi from a 10th Dan master of Shotokan, the throw should occur at about 1:33 seconds
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This is the awesome thing about the internet.  We can literally go back in time and see how the kata used to be and then make decisions from there.  The spin move in Enpi makes no sense.  I wonder what Kanazawa sensei thought.  He went to Okinawa and trained in older styles of karate and he has experience in other martial arts.  Why not just change it back?  I did and then practiced that technique until I got good at it.


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