# Original Kwans



## KarateMomUSA (Dec 30, 2010)

Korea had 5 original kwans:
Chungdokwan, Jidokwan, Moodukkwan, Changmookwan & Songmookwan (listed in no particular order). They opened between or around 1944 - 1947.

There were 6 early kwans. The same 5, plus the Ohdokwan. This kwan was named & formalized in 1954. However both co-founders Gen Choi Hong Hi & Col Nam Tae Hi were teaching in the military from 1946 & 1947 respectfully. Hence the Korean Amatuer Sports Association ruled in 1959 that the ODK had to be considered on par with the 5 original kwans. (Source Dr. Kimm's TKD book). This paved the way for the KTA to be formed in 1959 with Gen Choi as its 1st president. This of course was the forerunner of the KTA formed in 1961 under the TaeSuDo name, that would eventually become TKD in 1965 as a result of Gen Choi's work.

Some insist on describing the Oh Do Kwan as an offshoot or branch of the CDK. However that seems to me to be a tactic to downplay the significance of the largest Korean Kwan. If you listen to the Pioneers, the solidiers under Gen Choi's command, many of whom did come from the CDK, they made their TKD as a Korean martial art of self defence as a compilation or consolidation fo the fighting systems available to them in Korea at the time. Its signature was to become the new Korean Tuls (patterns) that they were developing along with Gen Choi from 1955. 

Now these are some of the things you will not see in some south Korean history accounts, as Gen Choi's TKD, ITF TKD, Chang Hon TKD, Military TKD, or Original TKD did not take the path of development that Kukki TKD, Olympic TKD, WTF TKD, TaeSuDo TKD, or Sport TKD did, nor was it developed with the same vision, emphasis or by the same leaders. One view is not right & then making the other wrong. hey are just different, not even better. They had a common starting point, but they reached where they were going by taking different roads, using different vehicles with different drivers. Grasping this may promote more understanding & help to create more cohesion.


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## puunui (Dec 30, 2010)

KarateMomUSA said:


> This kwan was named & formalized in 1954. However both co-founders Gen Choi Hong Hi & Col Nam Tae Hi were teaching in the military from 1946 & 1947 respectfully.



No they weren't. GM Nam wasn't even training in 1947. He was GM LEE Won Kuk's office secretary and handled the paperwork. He trained briefly towards the end I believe, but didn't make it past 6th guep under GM Lee, if that. I have photos of all of the Chung Do Kwan promotions back in the 40's, and tried hard but couldn't find GM Nam in any of them. I'll try and look again. 




KarateMomUSA said:


> Hence the Korean Amatuer Sports Association ruled in 1959 that the ODK had to be considered on par with the 5 original kwans. (Source Dr. Kimm's TKD book).



that's not what Dr. Kimm's book says. (with no citations by the way. ) If you have Dr. Kimm's Taekwondo book, then you can see a lot of inaccuracies. For example, he states that the (1959) "Korean" Taekwondo Association changed its name to The Korea Taesoodo Association. That is incorrect. The two are completely separate organizations. Also, on the bottom of page 34, you can see the Song Moo Kwan group photo in Kaesong in November 1947. Dr. Kimm got that from GM LEE Won Kuk, as well as the other photos on that page. GM Nam is in none of those photos. 




KarateMomUSA said:


> Some insist on describing the Oh Do Kwan as an offshoot or branch of the CDK.



That's how the Oh Do Kwan people see it, as an annex kwan of the Chung Do Kwan. I can't tell you how many times I have heard instructors state, "Oh Do Kwan/Chung Do Kwan, same thing."



KarateMomUSA said:


> However that seems to me to be a tactic to downplay the significance of the largest Korean Kwan.



The largest kwan was the Moo Duk Kwan, not the Oh Do Kwan. 



KarateMomUSA said:


> Its signature was to become the new Korean Tuls (patterns) that they were developing along with Gen Choi from 1955.



I want to say that the first four tuls were created in 1957, not 1955. 




KarateMomUSA said:


> Now these are some of the things you will not see in some south Korean history accounts, as Gen Choi's TKD, ITF TKD, Chang Hon TKD, Military TKD, or Original TKD did not take the path of development that Kukki TKD, Olympic TKD, WTF TKD, TaeSuDo TKD, or Sport TKD did,



The Oh Do Kwan did, and was always a part of the development of Kukki Taekwondo.


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## KarateMomUSA (Dec 30, 2010)

puunui said:


> No they weren't. GM Nam wasn't even training in 1947. He was GM LEE Won Kuk's office secretary and handled the paperwork. He trained briefly towards the end I believe, but didn't make it past 6th guep under GM Lee, if that. I have photos of all of the Chung Do Kwan promotions back in the 40's, and tried hard but couldn't find GM Nam in any of them. I'll try and look again.


Ok you are confusing me a bit here Sir. First you point to The Modern History of TKD as what I think is an important resource. Then you disregard it. Why?
see here:
"The Oh Do Kwan is a product of former ROK Army members CHOI Hong Hi and NAM Tae Hi. NAM Tae Hi made a big contribution to the *Oh Do Kwan*, which was *founded by CHOI *Hong Hi in the 3rd Army Yong Dae Ri base. For CHOI, NAM was a treasure.
*NAM registered at the Chung Do Kwan right after Independence Day*. After he learned Tang Soo Do from LEE Won Kuk, he *taught Tang Soo Do at the Military Signal School in 1947*. This led to his faith and loyalty with the military. A handsome man with excellent administrative skills, NAM's Tang Soo Do was great. After he met General Choi of the 29th Infantry Division in Chejudo, this was the beginning of his changing life."
The above taken word for word from The Modern History, *bold* is my addition.

Of course we know that *Independence Day* for Korea is August 15, 1945.


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## puunui (Dec 30, 2010)

KarateMomUSA said:


> First you point to The Modern History of TKD as what I think is an important resource.




I know. Even it has inaccuracies. But that is what happens when you try to blend ITF stuff in.  I'm just telling you what GM Lee and the Chung Do Kwan seniors say about GM Nam. The Chung Do Kwan still has all of the promotion records dating back to the 1940's. It would be a simple matter to look GM Nam's records up. GM Hwang Kee is listed in those records as a Chung Do Kwan White Belt, 6th Guep.


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## KarateMomUSA (Dec 30, 2010)

Quote:Originally Posted by *KarateMomUSA* 

 
_Hence the Korean Amatuer Sports  Association ruled in 1959 that the ODK had to be considered on par with  the 5 original kwans. (Source Dr. Kimm's TKD book)._


puunui said:


> that's not what Dr. Kimm's book says. (with no citations by the way. ) If you have Dr. Kimm's Taekwondo book, then you can see a lot of inaccuracies. For example, he states that the (1959) "Korean" Taekwondo Association changed its name to The Korea Taesoodo Association. That is incorrect. The two are completely separate organizations. Also, on the bottom of page 34, you can see the Song Moo Kwan group photo in Kaesong in November 1947. Dr. Kimm got that from GM LEE Won Kuk, as well as the other photos on that page. GM Nam is in none of those photos.


Please don't go off on a tangent here. I am sorry but I copied the info from Dr Kim's book. I regret to say that I do not have a personal library like you do. So please tell us what it says. my memory is pretty good, but not perfect. The crux of it was that the Kwan leaders did not want Gen Choi at the table, as he was not considered on par with the 5 original kwans. The Director of the KASA rules ad I stated above. Which paved the way for the 1959 KTA. Please if you can be so kind, post exactly what it says. I am not afraid to apologize. My goal is to learn & foster learning. I appreicate all you have shared with us so far, much of which has helped my understanding. So I thank you again.


puunui said:


> That's how the Oh Do Kwan people see it, as an annex kwan of the Chung Do Kwan. I can't tell you how many times I have heard instructors state, "Oh Do Kwan/Chung Do Kwan, same thing."


Yes of course, maybe the Kukki TKD guys say that, but not the ones that followed Gen Choi via the ITF


puunui said:


> The largest kwan was the Moo Duk Kwan, not the Oh Do Kwan.


You would be correct to say the MDK was the largest civilian gym, but the ODK had far more numbers. In fact some in the Park regime were wary of the thousands of soldiers discharged from the military that trained in Gen Choi's KD that would be loyal to him. Military service was mandatory & still is for all Korean males. if they trained in the military, they trained in Gen Choi's TKD, especially the army & at least till 1975. An interview of I think it was GM Kim Young Soo, who was a chief instructor for the ITF while it was still located in Korea, was quoted as saying that approximately 60% of the civilians were doing the Chang Hon Tuls or Gen Choi's forms. Of course everyone in the military, including Vietnam by them were doing them as well. many say that they were popular because they were named after great Koreans & significant historical events of Korea, plus they were of course the 1st set of Korean ones. So again it is how you see it or how you decide to define it. There is no doubt that Gen Choi had more students than anyone else, probably in the history of the martial arts. 


puunui said:


> I want to say that the first four tuls were created in 1957, not 1955.


No again, maybe if you are consulting Kukki TKD people, but the people that actually made them say otherwise. In 1955 Hwarang & Chungmu were created with Nam Tae Hi & Han Cha Kyo
helping. In 1956 UlJi with Han Cha Kyo & Nam Tae Hi assisting. (source is CK Choi who helped with Gaebaek Tul in 1959, among others). By 1959 SamIl was completed(Source Gen Choi's book on TKD, 1959, 1st ever TKD book).

Quote:
 	 	 		 			 				 					Originally Posted by *KarateMomUSA* 

 
_Now these are some of the things  you will not see in some south Korean history accounts, as Gen Choi's  TKD, ITF TKD, Chang Hon TKD, Military TKD, or Original TKD did not take  the path of development that Kukki TKD, Olympic TKD, WTF TKD, TaeSuDo  TKD, or Sport TKD did,
_


puunui said:


> The Oh Do Kwan did, and was always a part of the development of Kukki Taekwondo.


Yes of course. But my point is that some accounts of TKD's history do not credit the other side. I know you may view TKD as one & I agree. But the hard reality is that TKD was named by Gen Choi who applied it to his system almost exclusively from 1955. Those that made Kukki TKD, the larger more popular TKD, the one that is an Official Olympic sport, did not take the name till 1965 or in some cases later. They were TaeSuDo. These 2 martial activities took seperate paths of development from a common start.


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## KarateMomUSA (Dec 30, 2010)

puunui said:


> I know. Even it has inaccuracies. But that is what happens when you try to blend ITF stuff in.  I'm just telling you what GM Lee and the Chung Do Kwan seniors say about GM Nam. The Chung Do Kwan still has all of the promotion records dating back to the 1940's. It would be a simple matter to look GM Nam's records up. GM Hwang Kee is listed in those records as a Chung Do Kwan White Belt, 6th Guep.


Great info thank you. So who taught GM Nam, Gen Choi? I thought GM Nam was the CDK superman that was the real martial artist? 
Where are these records held? Are they available for review? 
What do these records say about Gen Choi training at the CDK?
What is meant by a CDK graduate:
"Graduates of the Chung Do Kwan were: 
1. YOO Ung Jun
2. SON Duk Sung
3. UHM Woon Kyu
4. HYUN Jong Myun
5. MIN Woon Sik
6. HAN In Sook
7. JUNG Young Taek
8. KANG Suh Chong
9. BAEK Joon Ki
10. NAM Tae Hi
11. KO Jae Chun
12. KWAK Kuen Sik
13. KIM Suk Kyu
14. HAN Cha Kyo
15. JO Sung Il
16. LEE Sa Man
17. RHEE Jhoon Goo (Jhoon Rhee)
18. KIM Song Sik"
Why does the Modern History list GM Nam as #10?
I have heard that GM Kang Suh Chong joined the CDK before GM Son Duk Sung. But GM Son was older & may have promoted faster. What have you heard about that?


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## puunui (Dec 30, 2010)

KarateMomUSA said:


> So who taught GM Nam, Gen Choi? I thought GM Nam was the CDK superman that was the real martial artist? Where are these records held? Are they available for review? What do these records say about Gen Choi training at the CDK? What is meant by a CDK graduate: Why does the Modern History list GM Nam as #10?I have heard that GM Kang Suh Chong joined the CDK before GM Son Duk Sung. But GM Son was older & may have promoted faster. What have you heard about that?




I don't know who taught GM Nam. I don't think it was General Choi. GM Nam did learn at least a little under GM Lee, but he didn't make it to 1st Dan under GM Lee. If I had to guess, I would say GM Nam learned primarily under GM Son. The Chung Do Kwan records are held at the Chung Do Kwan headquarters in Kangnam, near the Kukkiwon. I don't think they are available for review to the general public. General Choi never trained at the Chung Do Kwan. I don't know what is meant by Chung Do Kwan graduate. I think it means someone whose training can be traced back to the Chung Do Kwan. GM Kang may have joined before GM Son. I believe they were promoted at the same time by GM Lee and both were in the first class of 1st Dans promoted by GM Lee. Both are in all the group photos at the Chung Do Kwan promotion tests. I know that GM Son and GM Kang were at one point the best of friends. I don't know who is older; I think GM Son looks a little older in the early photos but they look about the same age, roughly. As for GM Nam being number ten, the book in Korean didn't number the people, and I wouldn't put any significance in the rankings. It doesn't mean, for example, that GM Nam was the tenth black belt promoted or was the tenth most senior Chung Do Kwan member.


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## puunui (Dec 30, 2010)

KarateMomUSA said:


> I am sorry but I copied the info from Dr Kim's book. I regret to say that I do not have a personal library like you do. So please tell us what it says.



It is a long entry and I don't feel like typing all that up. Basically what it said was that KASA sent a mediator who suggested that the Oh Do Kwan be included. There was no finding or order from KASA. Mediators don't make rulings or orders. 




KarateMomUSA said:


> The crux of it was that the Kwan leaders did not want Gen Choi at the table, as he was not considered on par with the 5 original kwans.



It had nothing to do with General Choi, although General Choi might feel that way.





KarateMomUSA said:


> You would be correct to say the MDK was the largest civilian gym, but the ODK had far more numbers. In fact some in the Park regime were wary of the thousands of soldiers discharged from the military that trained in Gen Choi's KD that would be loyal to him. Military service was mandatory & still is for all Korean males. if they trained in the military, they trained in Gen Choi's TKD, especially the army & at least till 1975.



I don't think that is how it was. In fact, I just had dinner with a senior Chung Do Kwan member a couple of weeks ago and he said that during the 60's, he taught Taekwondo at the Oh Do Kwan for three years. He did learn the new forms though, at least some of them, but he never received any Oh Do Kwan dan rank, and after he left the military, he felt no loyalty towards the Oh Do Kwan or General Choi. I also remember reading a Black Belt Magazine article from 1968 or so, regarding the Tiger Division in Vietnam. It listed all of the members who were training in Taekwondo, and the great majority were low color belts. I can go dig the article out later. 

Also the Oh Do Kwan, which was headed up by GM HYUN Jong Myung by the 60's, was a strong supporter of the unification efforts. In fact, GM Hyun was the Oh Do Kwan representative on the KTA committee that created the Palgwae and Yudanja forms in 1967-68. GM Hyun was also on the committee that created Koryo 2 and the Taeguek poomsae in 1972. 

Oh, and by the way, the earliest book about the Palgwae and Yudanja "hyung" as they were called, was GM LEE Won Kuk's book, Taekwondo Kyobon, published in 1968, which was co-authored by GM PARK Hae Man. It wasn't GM KIM Pyung Soo's Palgwae series by Ohara Publications. 




KarateMomUSA said:


> An interview of I think it was GM Kim Young Soo, who was a chief instructor for the ITF while it was still located in Korea, was quoted as saying that approximately 60% of the civilians were doing the Chang Hon Tuls or Gen Choi's forms.



I don't think so. I know the Chung Do Kwan never adopted the Chang Hon tul, and I cannot see the Jidokwan or the Moo Duk Kwan adopting them either. Perhaps individual practitioners, but not whole Kwan, other than the Oh Do Kwan.




KarateMomUSA said:


> Of course everyone in the military, including Vietnam by them were doing them as well.



I'll go dig out that old Black Belt magazine article. The front cover has two Taekwondoin, one with a rifle with a bayonet attached. 





KarateMomUSA said:


> There is no doubt that Gen Choi had more students than anyone else, probably in the history of the martial arts.



Really. 




KarateMomUSA said:


> But my point is that some accounts of TKD's history do not credit the other side. I know you may view TKD as one & I agree. But the hard reality is that TKD was named by Gen Choi who applied it to his system almost exclusively from 1955. Those that made Kukki TKD, the larger more popular TKD, the one that is an Official Olympic sport, did not take the name till 1965 or in some cases later. They were TaeSuDo. These 2 martial activities took seperate paths of development from a common start.



I don't know if General Choi actually created the name. I know he takes credit for it. I tend to go with GM NAM Tae Hi making the name, given the fact that he did almost everything else, including handling the actual training. 

As for the name, we talked about this but it does strike me as funny that General Choi would literally force the KTA to change the name of the art, and then say that the art that the KTA was doing, wasn't Taekwondo. If he truly felt that way, then he shouldn't have changed the name in the first place. He should have instead kept the name for himself, left Taesoodo alone, and gone on to popularize his Taekwon-Do, and we wouldn't have to be discussing it at all. Instead Taekwondo would have its own separate location on MT, and this one would be named Taesoodo. 

But in any event, Oh Do Kwan isn't considered an original kwan, at least not one of the five.


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## KarateMomUSA (Dec 30, 2010)

Quote:Originally Posted by *KarateMomUSA* 

 
_There is no doubt that Gen Choi had more students than anyone else, probably in the history of the martial arts._


puunui said:


> Really.


Yes of course. Please name 1 other martial art instructor that taught all around the world, crossing the world several times a year, who wrote the books that he did & oversaw world championships where some 60 or so countires would attend, all doing his patterns exactly the way he taught, with the winner being the one judged to be closest to the standard he himself set?

Now please be fair & honest. Just look at my criteria, forget the labels & don't get bogged down in semantics & give me 1 name of anyone who comes close.
I would guess that GM Hwang Kee as a Korean comes in 2nd place.
I would guess that Bruce Lee inspired more people, but had no real direct contact with students like Gen Choi did or even GM Hwang Kee for that matter. Gen Choi taught for 56 years, if not more, till his dying day.


puunui said:


> I don't know if General Choi actually created the name. I know he takes credit for it. I tend to go with GM NAM Tae Hi making the name, given the fact that he did almost everything else, including handling the actual training.


Are you or anyone else aware if GM Nam ever took credit for coming up with the name? 


puunui said:


> As for the name, we talked about this but it does strike me as funny that General Choi would literally force the KTA to change the name of the art, and then say that the art that the KTA was doing, wasn't Taekwondo. If he truly felt that way, then he shouldn't have changed the name in the first place. He should have instead kept the name for himself, left Taesoodo alone, and gone on to popularize his Taekwon-Do, and we wouldn't have to be discussing it at all. Instead Taekwondo would have its own separate location on MT, and this one would be named Taesoodo.


You nailed that right on the head! Agree 100%. What is worse is that then Gen choi cried that they stole his name & that they were karate. I think that in 1965 he still yielded some power & he thought that he could continue to steamroll ahead & we know that this didn't last long at all. Just 6 years later Dr kim came on the scene & as they say, the rest is history & that part 1971/2/3 - forward is pretty accurate for Kukki TKD at least. But Chang Hon TKD is ignored by south Korea & then reduced mostly to Gen choi's own viewpoint. 


puunui said:


> But in any event, Oh Do Kwan isn't considered an original kwan, at least not one of the five.


Please I know we have been going back & forth here & I appreciate the exchanges, but I never said that the ODK was an original kwan. I refer to it as 1 of the 6 early kwans. There were only 5 original kwans. If you point to just 1 time where I wrote ODK was an original kwan, please bring it to my attention & I will apologize & edit it.
Now I do personally believe that is to be considered on par with the original 5, as its founder also studied martial arts outside of Korea & brought it to Korea, both he & then Lt Nam taught from 1946 & 47 respectfully, was the finding of the KASA director. Please also take into consideration that the civilian kwans all closed & were disrupted by civil war, when the military training continued. In fact 2 of the original kwan founders disappeared during the war & their kwans later reopened under new names. Plus GM Lee, founder of the CDK, also left in 1950, same year the war broke out.

Also GM Son is older than GM Kang (Thanks again for that great info)


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## puunui (Dec 30, 2010)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Yes of course. Please name 1 other martial art instructor that taught all around the world, crossing the world several times a year, who wrote the books that he did & oversaw world championships where some 60 or so countires would attend, all doing his patterns exactly the way he taught, with the winner being the one judged to be closest to the standard he himself set?




GM PARK Hae Man comes close to doing that. GM JI Han Jae does seminars all over the world. 



KarateMomUSA said:


> Gen Choi taught for 56 years, if not more, till his dying day.



I really don't think so. But it's ok, because if you wish to keep that one in the ITF only history, then that is fine. 




KarateMomUSA said:


> Are you or anyone else aware if GM Nam ever took credit for coming up with the name?



I believe Earl Weiss told me that one. 




KarateMomUSA said:


> both he & then Lt Nam taught from 1946 & 47 respectfully,



Again, GM LEE Won Kuk said that GM NAM Tae Hi was his office secretary and did the paperwork for the Chung Do Kwan, and wasn't training until towards the end, maybe. He certainly wasn't training in 1947, so it is highly unlikely that he would have been teaching anywhere. I tend to believe GM Lee because I tried to look for GM Nam in the promotion photos, but he wasn't there, especially in the earlier ones where there aren't a lot of people. 




KarateMomUSA said:


> Please also take into consideration that the civilian kwans all closed & were disrupted by civil war, when the military training continued.



Oh Do Kwan was created in 1954, after the Korean War. Prior to that, there was no martial arts training in the military, at least nothing organized. It was war, a horrible war, and everyone was trying to survive. Maybe there was some training going on among the Kwan members, but that was about it. Some of the Kwans did reopen during the Korean War though, see the Modern History book.


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## KarateMomUSA (Dec 30, 2010)

Quote:Originally Posted by *KarateMomUSA* 

 
_Yes of course. Please name 1 other  martial art instructor that taught all around the world, crossing the  world several times a year, who wrote the books that he did &  oversaw world championships where some 60 or so countries would attend,  all doing his patterns exactly the way he taught, with the winner being  the one judged to be closest to the standard he himself set?_


puunui said:


> GM PARK Hae Man comes close to doing that.


Close to doing what? All of the criteria above? I think not


puunui said:


> GM JI Han Jae does seminars all over the world.


OK but that is 1 aspect of the critera! But does he even cross the world several times a year?


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## KarateMomUSA (Dec 30, 2010)

puunui said:


> Again, GM LEE Won Kuk said that GM NAM Tae Hi was his office secretary and did the paperwork for the Chung Do Kwan, and wasn't training until towards the end, maybe. He certainly wasn't training in 1947, so it is highly unlikely that he would have been teaching anywhere. I tend to believe GM Lee because I tried to look for GM Nam in the promotion photos, but he wasn't there, especially in the earlier ones where there aren't a lot of people.
> Oh Do Kwan was created in 1954, after the Korean War. Prior to that, there was no martial arts training in the military, at least nothing organized. It was war, a horrible war, and everyone was trying to survive. Maybe there was some training going on among the Kwan members, but that was about it. Some of the Kwans did reopen during the Korean War though, see the Modern History book.


OK Sir help me here: Check the Modern History Book? Which one? The one that you says has inaccuracies when it goes against what you were told or the one that supports what you were told? 
The "Book" says Gen Choi founded the ODK, you say Lt Nam, it says Lt Nam taught in the military from 1947, you said he didn't. But then you want me to refer to the same book to see when kwans opened, closed & reopened.
You seem to listen to what some say, but seem to disregard what others say. I don't know.  Maybe we can explore it this way:
GM Nam was a very early graduate of officer's training. The 1st school was in Jan of 1946. So Lt Nam had an early commission, so did he ever train? If so when & who taught him? Now he is still listed in what I think you said was a list of CDK graduates that made it to 1st dan & was that group all tested together. I am having trouble figuring out what is accurate here. Please help


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## puunui (Dec 30, 2010)

KarateMomUSA said:


> OK Sir help me here: Check the Modern History Book? Which one? The one that you says has inaccuracies when it goes against what you were told or the one that supports what you were told?




ok never mind then.


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## KarateMomUSA (Dec 31, 2010)

Quote:Originally Posted by *KarateMomUSA* 

 
_OK Sir help me here: Check the  Modern History Book? Which one? The one that you says has inaccuracies  when it goes against what you were told or the one that supports what  you were told? _


puunui said:


> ok never mind then.


I would encourage you to dig deeper with us, isn't that how we learn? Won't it help us test the veracity of information? Or are you simply convinced that what you told is 100% accurate, without taking in the motivations of people & the context of the times that this all happened in?


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## miguksaram (Dec 31, 2010)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Quote:Originally Posted by *KarateMomUSA*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## KarateMomUSA (Dec 31, 2010)

Quote:Originally Posted by *USAKarateMom* 
_Yes of course. Please name 1 other  martial art instructor that taught all around the world, crossing the  world several times a year, who wrote the books that he did &  oversaw world championships where some 60 or so countries would attend,  all doing his patterns exactly the way he taught, with the winner being  the one judged to be closest to the standard he himself set?_


miguksaram said:


> Ummmm....Fumio Demura, Jinro Kano, Mas Oyama, Helio Gracie....


OK these are great legends of the martial arts world of the past & a great innovator of our present time. I agree that those named are most deserving of credit & nothing I post should be considered anything against their legacies. But I am not that well versed with these Giants. However I do not think that any of them traveled the world like Gen Choi did, as air travel was not as accessible at the time for some. Plus Gen Choi circled the world several times a year. By that I mean he was constantly flying around the world several times a year. No one on that list had the travel schedule, the frequent flier miles & complied a list of countries that he visited & revisited teaching his TKD.
Please correct me if I am wrong on the above criteria
I am sure that these greats have authored books, but I am not sure that they wrote 5 books on TKD, one on moral culture & a 3 volume set of his life. There was the 1959 book, the 1st book ever written on TKD, then the 1965 book which was the 1st book ever written in English, the 1972 book which may have been the most comprehensive book up till that time on a MA. This book had 6 editions & 2 reprints. The 15 volume set called the Encyclopedia of TKD superseded the 1972 book & I think is unmatched by any other MA publication. It is now on its 5th edition. He then wrote a condensed version which I have lost track of how many editions & reprints there are. His books have been printed in 6 languages, with the 15 volumes also available in electronic form. I am not sure if anyone above has done this.   
Please correct me if I am wrong on the above criteria
I am not sure if anyone of those other Titans oversaw world championships from 1974 to 2001. This 27 year period included men, women & junior competitions. (Women & junior world championships competition for the ITF preceded the WTF, but the WTF had their 1st world championships in 1973). These championships included up to 5 categories of competition, not 1 (sparring) & were all operated under his guidance. I am not sure if this record is matched by the other legends.
Please correct me if I am wrong on the above criteria
Finally the last part of the criteria is his Tuls. The patterns that he designed with his team over a 30 some odd year period. he insisted, which caused big problems, on these Tuls being performed exactly how he wanted them. This was the world-wide standard that the WTF is now trying to do, along with the KKW instructors in recent years. So I also believe that this has not yet been matched to the extent & time frame that Gen Choi achieved. Sadly we even see the standardization slightly weakening today, as a result of his passing over 8 years ago. This too is a testament to his historic achievement.
Please correct me if I am wrong on the above criteria

Now none of the above is meant to say that anyone else is better than the "next guy". As that is more opinion based. That is why I pulled out 4 categories of criteria of his many accomplishments to have a more even comparison. I am sure that if others came up with different categories or criteria than the above 4 I picked, Gen Choi would not come out on top or near the top. But with these 4 categories of criteria I remain confident that no one can match these 4


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## puunui (Dec 31, 2010)

KarateMomUSA said:


> OK these are great legends of the martial arts world of the past & a great innovator of our present time. I agree that those named are most deserving of credit & nothing I post should be considered anything against their legacies. But I am not that well versed with these Giants. However I do not think that any of them traveled the world like Gen Choi did, as air travel was not as accessible at the time for some. Plus Gen Choi circled the world several times a year. By that I mean he was constantly flying around the world several times a year. No one on that list had the travel schedule, the frequent flier miles & complied a list of countries that he visited & revisited teaching his TKD.




First of all, I don't really accept your criteria as determinant of who has the most students. Do we count students of students? If so, then I would say GM LEE Won Kuk would have the most. 

As far as travelling, GM PARK Hae Man travels about eight months out of the year flying all over the world teaching. His non korean students are some of the most senior non koreans in Taekwondo, people like GM Edward Sell for example, the first non-Korean to receive the Kukkiwon 9th Dan. GM Park just stopped here on what was his last stop on his latest. He goes Europe, Asia, Oceania, South America. I don't know about Africa. When Russia opened up to the west, GM Park stayed there for months trying to get the Russian Taekwondo program up and going. 

One question though. How big was the ITF when General Choi was alive? Just for comparison purposes, I can tell you that the Kukkiwon has certified 7 million taekwondoin with poom and dan certification. Did the ITF issue comparable numbers of dan certification?


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## Archtkd (Dec 31, 2010)

Have you folks in the midst of the historical debates ever talked to Kim Bok-Man. He helped Choi create a number of the ITF forms. He's still (was until the last I heard from him early last year) teaching in New Jersey.


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## KarateMomUSA (Dec 31, 2010)

puunui said:


> First of all, I don't really accept your criteria as determinant of who has the most students.


Thats fine, you can feel free to offer your own, but still can you find anyone that fits that criteria that would out do the General?


puunui said:


> Do we count students of students? If so, then I would say GM LEE Won Kuk would have the most.


No I mean students he was actually on the floor with, teaching, correcting & sharing with. No problem with GM Lee under that 1 category of criteria, but then you would be forced to go back to his teacher, Funakoshi Sensei!


puunui said:


> As far as travelling, GM PARK Hae Man travels about eight months out of the year flying all over the world teaching. His non korean students are some of the most senior non koreans in Taekwondo, people like GM Edward Sell for example, the first non-Korean to receive the Kukkiwon 9th Dan. GM Park just stopped here on what was his last stop on his latest. He goes Europe, Asia, Oceania, South America. I don't know about Africa. When Russia opened up to the west, GM Park stayed there for months trying to get the Russian Taekwondo program up and going.


Yes this is most impressive & I have only heard good things about this man who I am finding is a wonderful martial artist. How does he measure up in the other categories of criteria that I offered that you do not accept?


puunui said:


> One question though. How big was the ITF when General Choi was alive? Just for comparison purposes, I can tell you that the Kukkiwon has certified 7 million taekwondoin with poom and dan certification. Did the ITF issue comparable numbers of dan certification?


I have no idea of actual numbers but can assure you that they are probably no where near those numbers. I think the ITF paled in comparison to the KKW & WTF. I can tell you that the WTF has 192 member nations now. I am not sure how many they had in 2002. But I can tell you that the ITF was in approximately 100 countries, but sometimes in some nations they had 1 school or a few followers. I do not believe that they ever got more than 70 countries at a single world championship & some of those numbers included only 1 official or 1 competitor or a handful.


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## KarateMomUSA (Dec 31, 2010)

GM Bok Man Kim was very influential in helping to develop & propagate original TKD, especially in south east Asia. He rose to the all important military rank of Sgt-Major, which is the highest non-commissioned officer rank in the ROK Army, US Army as well, which the ROK Army is patterned after. Gen Choi sent for GM Kim & Woo Jae Lim when he was assigned to Malaysia as the 1st Korean Ambassador


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## Archtkd (Jan 2, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> GM Bok Man Kim was very influential in helping to develop & propagate original TKD, especially in south east Asia. He rose to the all important military rank of Sgt-Major, which is the highest non-commissioned officer rank in the ROK Army, US Army as well, which the ROK Army is patterned after. Gen Choi sent for GM Kim & Woo Jae Lim when he was assigned to Malaysia as the 1st Korean Ambassador


 
And he is still teaching. http://www.integritymaa.com/kim.htm . I met him about two years ago and his speed with side, front snap roundhouse and hook kick was amazing.


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## puunui (Jan 3, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> No I mean students he was actually on the floor with, teaching, correcting & sharing with. No problem with GM Lee under that 1 category of criteria, but then you would be forced to go back to his teacher, Funakoshi Sensei!



No you wouldn't be forced to go back to anyone. 




KarateMomUSA said:


> Yes this is most impressive & I have only heard good things about this man who I am finding is a wonderful martial artist. How does he measure up in the other categories of criteria that I offered that you do not accept?



I forget what the other criteria you used, but I know that GM Park would for many years run the World Chung Do Kwan Championships which were held all over the world. When it was held in Washington DC, GM LEE Won Kuk attended. GM Park has also wrote, cowrote or edited many Taekwondo books, including every edition of the Kukkiwon Textbook, GM LEE Won Kuk's book, as well as others in the korean language. 

GM LEE Haeng Ung also has a super large following, with a larger tournament and has also published many books, created his own forms, etc. 

Sensei Mas Oyama travelled the world as well, had his tournament, and wrote tons of books. 

JKA Chief Instructor Nakayama Sensei, same thing.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 3, 2011)

Quote:Originally Posted by *KarateMomUSA* 

 
_No I mean students he was actually  on the floor with, teaching, correcting & sharing with. No problem  with GM Lee under that 1 category of criteria, but then you would be  forced to go back to his teacher, Funakoshi Sensei!
_


puunui said:


> No you wouldn't be forced to go back to anyone.


Yes it one was to be fair minded, you would. You have wrote that Kukki TKD does not consider anyone person to be TKD's founder, as so many contributed to making their TaeSuDo the Kukki TKD that it is today. Therefore & since GM Lee left the formative years scene in 1959, after only 4-6 years of actual training, teaching & influence, you would be forced to go back to his teacher, as he was basically teaching what he learned in Japan to his students & that was not TaeSuDo or Kukki TKD.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 3, 2011)

puunui said:


> I forget what the other criteria you used, but I know that GM Park would for many years run the World Chung Do Kwan Championships which were held all over the world. When it was held in Washington DC, GM LEE Won Kuk attended. GM Park has also wrote, cowrote or edited many Taekwondo books, including every edition of the Kukkiwon Textbook, GM LEE Won Kuk's book, as well as others in the korean language.


Yes you make a good case & I have the utmost respect for GM Park, thinking now that he may surpassed GM Hwang Kee for that 2nd place behind Gen Choi. But he would still fall short in the world championships & the world-wide standardization of the tournament's criteria for patterns. If you did foget, you can always scroll back in the thread to review it again. I am certain that no one can math that set of criteria, which was why I selected it.



puunui said:


> GM LEE Haeng Ung also has a super large following, with a larger tournament and has also published many books, created his own forms, etc.
> Sensei Mas Oyama travelled the world as well, had his tournament, and wrote tons of books.
> JKA Chief Instructor Nakayama Sensei, same thing.


All great legends which I admire & I am not that well versed with the Japanese ones, but GM Lee did accomplish much of the criteria, but no where near a world-wide standard or global following.


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## puunui (Jan 3, 2011)

Archtkd said:


> Have you folks in the midst of the historical debates ever talked to Kim Bok-Man. He helped Choi create a number of the ITF forms. He's still (was until the last I heard from him early last year) teaching in New Jersey.




I saw him at a Taekwondo Hall of Fame gathering, I think it was last year. He walked up to me and asked me in Korean if I had seen GM KWON Jae Hwa. I told him in english that I hadn't seen him but if I do, I will tell him that he was looking for him.


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## puunui (Jan 3, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Therefore & since GM Lee left the formative years scene in 1959, after only 4-6 years of actual training, teaching & influence




He left Korea in 1950, not 1959, but he did return to Korea in 1967, saw everyone's long wide stance and then gave a series of seminars on the short narrow stance which was incorporated into the present Kukkiwon poomsae. 

I find it interesting that you set up all these things like who has the most students or who is the founder and then place General Choi in that spot, when in fact the pioneers don't really care about that sort of stuff and don't really think about it, to tell you the truth. If they did care, then they would have written themselves into the Kukkiwon Textbook with their names and accomplishments plastered all over the place. they really don't care. 

I've thought about General Choi over the last several days more than I have thought about him over the last two or three years. All it does is give me a headache, trying to sift through all the lies and the false or insignificant claims. I can't help but think that he also gave the pioneers headaches when they thought about him as well. 

His books are in their final print. They are selling off the last of the encyclopedia and I don't know if there will be more printed. In thirty or forty years, which seems like a long time but really isn't, only a few people will recognize his name. I think less Taekwondo practitioners know who he is today than when he was alive.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 3, 2011)

Quote:Originally Posted by *KarateMomUSA* 

 
_Therefore & since GM Lee left  the formative years scene in 1950, after only 4-6 years of actual  training, teaching & influence_


puunui said:


> He left Korea in 1950, not 1959, but he did return to Korea in 1967, saw everyone's long wide stance and then gave a series of seminars on the short narrow stance which was incorporated into the present Kukkiwon poomsae.


Sorry Sir, a typo on my part, which I fixed. I did the math right, but put in a 9 by mistake.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 3, 2011)

puunui said:


> I find it interesting that you set up all these things like who has the most students or who is the founder and then place General Choi in that spot, when in fact the pioneers don't really care about that sort of stuff and don't really think about it, to tell you the truth. If they did care, then they would have written themselves into the Kukkiwon Textbook with their names and accomplishments plastered all over the place. they really don't care.
> I've thought about General Choi over the last several days more than I have thought about him over the last two or three years. All it does is give me a headache, trying to sift through all the lies and the false or insignificant claims. I can't help but think that he also gave the pioneers headaches when they thought about him as well.
> His books are in their final print. They are selling off the last of the encyclopedia and I don't know if there will be more printed. In thirty or forty years, which seems like a long time but really isn't, only a few people will recognize his name. I think less Taekwondo practitioners know who he is today than when he was alive.


I am sorry that you seem to only have such a poor view of a Korean martial artist that did so much for so many around the world, even though he had little or nothing to do with your TKD, or Kukki TKD, which we all know was TaeSuDo.
Perhaps some of the Kukki TKD Pioneers did not want to publicly credit their teachers, the original kwan founders, as that would have made that dreaded connection to karate. AS GM Lee Chong Woo said, they had to do so for nationalist interests. I am glad that this is changing & we are hearing about the great contributions to Kukki TKD.
Gen Choi's books will not go out of print. His name will not fade from history, especially after his top secret intelligence file is released in the ROK & Korea is unified. In fact, just in 2008, there was another edition of the 15 volume Encyclopedia of TKD, a work that is unprecedented in the martial art world. This is done by the owner of TKD Times, GM Jung Woo Jin, who holds the rights to this work & always has. The Chang Hon Foundation has the rights to the other works & they in 2004 printed a new condensed book of the 15 volumes. Mrs Choi is working on consolidating his auto-biography, which the original is currently being sold in south Korea in 3 volumes in Korean. The 1st 2 volumes only have been translated into English. These books were not even allowed into south Korea during the dictatorships, so his name will not fade. In fact I am sure that the TKD Park will credit him. You even saw their Chairman Dr Lee referred to him as the founder of TKD at an event in the USA last year & made clear that the ITF was formed in Seoul before the WTF.


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## puunui (Jan 3, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Perhaps some of the Kukki TKD Pioneers did not want to publicly credit their teachers, the original kwan founders, as that would have made that dreaded connection to karate. AS GM Lee Chong Woo said, they had to do so for nationalist interests.




The pioneers had no problems recognizing, respecting and acknowledging their teachers. And this is what the actual translation was that you are referring to above:

Q: Is Karate the only martial art that had an impact on Taekwondo in the process of its creation after Liberation? No other influences at all?

A: That is a candid statement. I am the one who wrote books bringing in various materials of all sorts, but now is the time to disclose the facts. All the masters who taught Karate got together and formulated basic Taekwondo forms, and I took a central role. It should not be a big issue now to disclose this fact, because we are at the top of the world.


Q: Do you assume that, when evaluated based on technical standards, Korean martial arts are behind Japanese martial arts?

A: At the present time, Taekwondo is ahead, since it has become a competitive sport. Japan was far ahead when Taekwondo was first created; it was inevitable, because Taekwondo is a modified version of Karate. At that time, Taek Kyun was the only Korean martial art, and it was taught as a health exercise by the Elder, Duk Ki Song. For this reason, movements were soft and were practiced for health management. In Taekwondo, in order to create strong power, you must initiate with relaxed movement. All punches must strike hard rather than push, in order to have power. For this, relaxation is required.


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## bluewaveschool (Jan 3, 2011)

GM Lee Won Kuk wrote a book?  In english or korean?


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## puunui (Jan 3, 2011)

bluewaveschool said:


> GM Lee Won Kuk wrote a book?  In english or korean?




Korean, published in 1968.


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## bluewaveschool (Jan 3, 2011)

Need to put 'learn to read Korean' on the new years to do list then


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## miguksaram (Jan 4, 2011)

bluewaveschool said:


> Need to put 'learn to read Korean' on the new years to do list then


Learning to read Korea is easy.  Translating is what gets ya.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 4, 2011)

puunui said:


> The pioneers had no problems recognizing, respecting and acknowledging their teachers. And this is what the actual translation was that you are referring to above:
> 
> Q: Is Karate the only martial art that had an impact on Taekwondo in the process of its creation after Liberation? No other influences at all?
> 
> ...


Sir I know very well that this is the translation & it is exactly what I am getting at. He says we no longer have to hide, but that is in 2002, 28 years after he came up with the lie!
So he clearly says their TKD is a sport that they made from their karate training. And now since TKD is so popular, they no longer have to lie that it came from karate. So yes, now they can start to credit their teachers, which has been my whole point. This simply was not possible decades ago! The truth is starting to come out.


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## puunui (Jan 4, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Sir I know very well that this is the translation & it is exactly what I am getting at. He says we no longer have to hide, but that is in 2002, 28 years after he came up with the lie!




It's hard to tell from what we have, the edited version, but I think he is talking about what was written in the Kukkiwon Textbook, that he wrote that part. He also seems to be talking about the "masters" who created the Kukkiwon poomsae, which would be in the same time frame roughly. Again, we are hampered by the limitations of the interviewer and also what he chose to print. 

As far as who came up with the "lie", I was looking in General Choi's 1965 book and it had some very interesting things written. It seems General Choi was the one who came up with the "lie", which shouldn't be all that surprising at this point. I'll try and post it in a separate thread.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 13, 2011)

puunui said:


> It's hard to tell from what we have, the edited version, but I think he is talking about what was written in the Kukkiwon Textbook, that he wrote that part. He also seems to be talking about the "masters" who created the Kukkiwon poomsae, which would be in the same time frame roughly. Again, we are hampered by the limitations of the interviewer and also what he chose to print.
> 
> As far as who came up with the "lie", I was looking in General Choi's 1965 book and it had some very interesting things written. It seems General Choi was the one who came up with the "lie", which shouldn't be all that surprising at this point. I'll try and post it in a separate thread.


No it is actually pretty clear from the reporters notes & questions that he was trying to find out why they said TKD was 2,000 years old, when there is scant evidence to support it. The reporter Yook says that newer books were coming out casting doubt over the 2,000 year old myth. Now I would say that this is what I have been talking about. The south Korea of today is no longer a military dictatorship that did not allow free speech or freedom of the press. So the reporter is directing his questions to that & clearly GM Lee responded that they had nothing else to say. He now says it was karate & they no longer have to hide the connection, as they are now on top of the world. I am not sure how this can not been seen as it is spelled out for us. GM Lee says so in his own words. This is also what Steve Capener, PhD also says.

Now of course Gen Choi in his book did say that 1,300 years ago, Korea had their own fighting arts. But he made clear for so long, including in his 1965 book that he created TKD & used karate to do so & he was the father of TKD etc. Everyone knows that Gen Choi always took credit as TKD's founder so there was no way he was saying it was 2,000 years old. Its funny that you make this claim. Maybe GM Lee could not have come up with such a story on his own & he had to build off of Gen Choi's 1,300 year old story of Korea having martial arts then. But of course GM Lee, the KTA, KKW & WTF all left out the very apparent, plain to see karate connection. They still have not set the record straight!


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## rmclain (Jan 13, 2011)

puunui said:


> Oh, and by the way, the earliest book about the Palgwae and Yudanja "hyung" as they were called, was GM LEE Won Kuk's book, Taekwondo Kyobon, published in 1968, which was co-authored by GM PARK Hae Man. It wasn't GM KIM Pyung Soo's Palgwae series by Ohara Publications.
> 
> 
> What page(s) of GM Lee Won-guek's book are the Palgue forms mentioned?
> ...


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## puunui (Jan 13, 2011)

rmclain said:


> What page(s) of GM Lee Won-guek's book are the Palgue forms mentioned?



I'll go look tonight when I get home. GM Lee's book also gives the original names of Pyongwon and Ilyeo too.


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## puunui (Jan 14, 2011)

rmclain said:


> puunui said:
> 
> 
> > What page(s) of GM Lee Won-guek's book are the Palgue forms mentioned?
> ...


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## rmclain (Jan 15, 2011)

puunui said:


> rmclain said:
> 
> 
> > 287-306.
> ...


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## puunui (Jan 15, 2011)

rmclain said:


> I would like to obtain a copy. Do you have the copyright date, publisher, etc.? Any info I might need to track it down would be helpful.




That information isn't going to help you. The book is long out of print, written in Korean, with no ISBN number. The only way you are going to obtain a copy is if you luck out and find it in a used bookstore in Korea (which is almost impossible) or someone gives you their copy (how I got mine).


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 16, 2011)

Quote:Originally Posted by *rmclain* 

 
_I would like to obtain a copy. Do  you have the copyright date, publisher, etc.? Any info I might need to  track it down would be helpful.
_


puunui said:


> That information isn't going to help you. The book is long out of print, written in Korean, with no ISBN number. The only way you are going to obtain a copy is if you luck out and find it in a used bookstore in Korea (which is almost impossible) or someone gives you their copy (how I got mine).


Or if someone would copy or scan it.


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## puunui (Jan 17, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Or if someone would copy or scan it.




Good luck to you on that.


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