# Need a HKD BB to go with your TKD BB?



## Kong Soo Do (May 4, 2012)

http://www.gmwons.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Hapkido-Info.pdf

Great news for anyone wanting a HKD BB to compliment their TKD BB, without the fuss of actually having to train for one (at least beyond two days). And better yet, you may not have to start at 1st Dan, it could be higher. There are stringent requirements though so be forwarned, you need a TKD BB and you will have to attend at least two days training time to be eligible to test for a HKD BB. That's a whole weekend! 

And even better news, if you attended last years seminar you're likely to be eligible for a promotion already. 

I'm not sure what the test fee is, but it is in addition to the seminar fee. Only Visa and Master Card are excepted though.


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## oftheherd1 (May 4, 2012)

Awww, rats!  I already have a BB in Hapkido.  Do you suppose I could go there and get one in TKD?

What a rip!  If the Korean Hapkido Federation agrees to that, shame on them.  If they don't, they should sanction him.  Same with the Kukilwon.

Ok well.


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## StudentCarl (May 4, 2012)

I wonder if you have to have one of those cable connection ports in the back of your skull, like in _The Matrix. _I'd be interested to see the curriculum.


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## Kong Soo Do (May 4, 2012)

oftheherd1 said:


> Awww, rats! I already have a BB in Hapkido. Do you suppose I could go there and get one in TKD?



You may have to wait for another KKW special testing for that BB.


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## dancingalone (May 4, 2012)

I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt.  Hopefully, the people this is marketed at are supposed to have extensive hapkido experience already otherwise they will fail the test given for certification.  Gotta admit it doesn't look good though and makes me wonder about the value of IHF paper.


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## Dirty Dog (May 4, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt.  Hopefully, the people this is marketed at are supposed to have extensive hapkido experience already otherwise they will fail the test given for certification.  Gotta admit it doesn't look good though and makes me wonder about the value of IHF paper.



This is, I think, what it all boils down to. If you can get the paper with nothing more than a weekend seminar, then it's worthless, and calls into question the validity of all IHF certifications. If it's a real test, however, and the seminar merely gives you the chance to try (and fail) then the question becomes whether they will simply let anyone test (and pay) or only allow those with a reasonable grasp of the material to test.


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## Daniel Sullivan (May 4, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> http://www.gmwons.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Hapkido-Info.pdf
> 
> Great news for anyone wanting a HKD BB to compliment their TKD BB, without the fuss of actually having to train for one (at least beyond two days). And better yet, you may not have to start at 1st Dan, it could be higher. There are stringent requirements though so be forwarned, you need a TKD BB and you will have to attend at least two days training time to be eligible to test for a HKD BB. That's a whole weekend!
> 
> ...


Already have one.  Already higher than first degree.  I think I'll keep my cards un-dented.


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## Kong Soo Do (May 4, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt. Hopefully, the people this is marketed at are supposed to have extensive hapkido experience already otherwise they will fail the test given for certification. Gotta admit it doesn't look good though and makes me wonder about the value of IHF paper.



Commenting only by what the flyer states...

Paragraph 4:  Comments on some TKD schools teaching HKD as part of the TKD curriculum, but not necessarily recognizing it as HKD.  This sounds like TKD with a few joint locks and throws tossed into the mix.  It states that both basic and advanced techniques will be covered.

Paragraph 5:  Centered around student retention and being competitive (read $).

Paragraph 6:  Here is the crux of the matter.  You can test, for an extra charge after the seminar.  How long this test is, or what it entails is not mentioned.  But other than the basic and advanced taught in the seminar, what would the test consist of?  Fact is that not every HKD school teaches exactly the same material.  And cutting to the matter, it isn't aimed at HKD students, but rather TKD students so any material other than what was taught at the seminar itself could vary widely.  Additionally, it states you need a TKD BB.  Why?  What would one have to do with the other?  People can never take TKD, but train in a legitimate HKD school and make BB.  So basically, looking at the flyer, this is for TKD folks who may or may not have a bit of HKD training, taking a weekend's worth of techniques and then being tested upon those techniques and being given a BB.  

To go further, it states it is a COMBINATION of your ability AND your current TKD rank.  So what does this mean?  If you're a 5th Dan in TKD and can do all the techniques taught during the two days of training...do you then qualify for a 2nd or 3rd or a 4th in HKD in this HKD organization?

Paragraph 8:  If you took last years seminar and got a BB, apparentely you could be eligible for a promotion.  So if you made a BB higher than 1st Dan last year, you only have one year TIG for promotion?


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## oftheherd1 (May 4, 2012)

StudentCarl said:


> I wonder if you have to have one of those cable connection ports in the back of your skull, like in _The Matrix. _I'd be interested to see the curriculum.



Follow the link posted by Kong Soo Do ( http://www.gmwons.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Hapkido-Info.pdf ) where it looks like all you have to have is a TKD BB (makes no sense, as the Hapkido I learned does not share any traits with TKD), and attend two 7 hour days, then test.  I can only imagine the testing consists of 'if you can stumble through the techniques and stretching I taught sometimes, you are a BB.'

Then look at some of the online videos of seminars at http://www.google.com/search?q=joo+...8&startIndex=&startPage=1&rlz=1I7ADFA_enUS436 to see what he is teaching.  He actually looks like he knows about Hapkido, but I can't imagine if that is so, why he would issue BBs after only 14 hours of instruction.


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## Daniel Sullivan (May 4, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Commenting only by what the flyer states...
> 
> Paragraph 4:  Comments on some TKD schools teaching HKD as part of the TKD curriculum, but not necessarily recognizing it as HKD.  This sounds like TKD with a few joint locks and throws tossed into the mix.  It states that both basic and advanced techniques will be covered.
> 
> ...


I've seen this approach many times before.  Its a bandwagon that people like to jump on because it is profitable and grows your instructor network.  

Unfortunately, it also produces unqualified and/or under-qualified instructors.  I would not consider any of these people to be learning actual hapkido; just culling techniques from hapkido to add to their TKD classes.  

I would rather see them issue a hoshinsul certification.  It would still be profitable and it would give the TKD instructors taking the course another certificate to hang on the wall.  Its not like the bulk of their walk in customers actually know what hapkido is anyway, so what the certificate says is almost immaterial.


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## miguksaram (May 4, 2012)

Has anyone tried contacting the IHF directly to clarify the actual requirements?  Do you know if this was mass marketed to every martial art school or marketed directly to the TKD schools within the US Hanmookwan organization?  Which IHF is sponsoring this and what is their overall record of quality?  (If you look up International Hapkido Federation on google you will receive several different orgs with several different leaders)


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## oftheherd1 (May 4, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> ...
> 
> Unfortunately, it also produces unqualified and/or under-qualified instructors. I would not consider any of these people to be learning actual hapkido; just culling techniques from hapkido to add to their TKD classes.
> 
> ...


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## Daniel Sullivan (May 4, 2012)

miguksaram said:


> Has anyone tried contacting the IHF directly to clarify the actual requirements?  Do you know if this was mass marketed to every martial art school or marketed directly to the TKD schools within the US Hanmookwan organization?  Which IHF is sponsoring this and what is their overall record of quality?  (If you look up International Hapkido Federation on google you will receive several different orgs with several different leaders)


The emblem on the right hand corner of the document is that of the IHF that generally comes to mind; GM Myung Jae Nam's organization. 

I suspect that this is not an organizational program, but one being endorsed by a small group of instructors with enough rank to process dan applications.


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## Kong Soo Do (May 4, 2012)

miguksaram said:


> Has anyone tried contacting the IHF directly to clarify the actual requirements?



I believe the flyer was quite clear on the actual requirements; A TKD BB, attend at least 2-days of the seminar and two passport photos. No checks, Master Card or Visa only. As I mentioned earlier, what other requirements could they be possibly tested on, other than what was presented at the seminar? 



> Do you know if this was mass marketed to every martial art school or marketed directly to the TKD schools within the US Hanmookwan organization?



It is an open flyer on their website. It was brought to my attention by a Hapkido instructor that has nothing to do with the HMK. I see no restrictions for attendence mentioned in either the flyer or the website.


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## miguksaram (May 4, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> The emblem on the right hand corner of the document is that of the IHF that generally comes to mind; GM Myung Jae Nam's organization.
> 
> I suspect that this is not an organizational program, but one being endorsed by a small group of instructors with enough rank to process dan applications.


Which is why I wondered if anyone contacted them to clarify the requirements and who this was marketed to.


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## miguksaram (May 4, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> I believe the flyer was quite clear on the actual requirements; A TKD BB, attend at least 2-days of the seminar and two passport photos. No checks, Master Card or Visa only. As I mentioned earlier, what other requirements could they be possibly tested on, other than what was presented at the seminar?


So you did call them up to clarify your interpretation of the flyer correct?



> It is an open flyer on their website. It was brought to my attention by a Hapkido instructor that has nothing to do with the HMK. I see no restrictions for attendence mentioned in either the flyer or the website.


Right on their website, which, for the most part, would be viewed by people from their organization.  Do you know if they were marketing this to everyone?  Did they post it on chat boards or do mass emails to the general population?  I have very rarely heard of people restricting seminars to just their people.  However, I also know a lot of schools may only advertise it within their own organization.  If others get wind of it, that is just a bonus for them.

They may be selling rank.  They may be testing people in their group who have been doing HKD for a while but never had a chance to test.  I do not know for certain....do you?  If you are to pass judgement, be sure to have all the facts first, that is all that I am trying to say.


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## Tenchi (May 4, 2012)

I find it generally offensive for Martial Arts for one to be selling rank. Selling knowledge which allows for appropriate rank is one thing, but this is cutting through the difficulties and expertise any Dan should possess. I am a 2nd Dan of Taekwondo, and I certainly would not achieve the ability to be an Hapkido Dan in a mere two days. I'm sure many share my opinion.


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## Kong Soo Do (May 4, 2012)

miguksaram said:


> So you did call them up to clarify your interpretation of the flyer correct?



Why call to ask them what is already clearly presented in the flyer? No interpretation required, simply reading what they have put on paper.



> Right on their website, which, for the most part, would be viewed by people from their organization. Do you know if they were marketing this to everyone? Did they post it on chat boards or do mass emails to the general population?



You have answered your own question;



> I have very rarely heard of people restricting seminars to just their people.





> They may be selling rank.



You think? You said it, not me. I'm just commenting on the contents of the flyer.



> They may be testing people in their group who have been doing HKD for a while but never had a chance to test.



Well according to my instructor, who was HMK...as well as your buddy Glenn who knows GM LEE personally and has stated authoritatively...HMK TKD is strictly KKW sport TKD. No SD element beyond what is contained in the KKW curriculum. So 'doing HKD for a while' isn't within the scope of what the HMK is all about, according to the GM of HMK as well as those who are/were associated directly with them. And 'doing HKD for a while' isn't quite the same as actually training in HKD. Or do you disagree?



> If you are to pass judgement, be sure to have all the facts first, that is all that I am trying to say.



Pass judgement? I don't recall having made a specific judgement really. I've offered the flyer and the facts of what the flyer states. Let the reader decide for themselves the merit of what is offered.


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## oftheherd1 (May 4, 2012)

miguksaram said:


> So you did call them up to clarify your interpretation of the flyer correct?
> 
> 
> Right on their website, which, for the most part, would be viewed by people from their organization. Do you know if they were marketing this to everyone? Did they post it on chat boards or do mass emails to the general population? I have very rarely heard of people restricting seminars to just their people. However, I also know a lot of schools may only advertise it within their own organization. If others get wind of it, that is just a bonus for them.
> ...



It is probably not what you intended sir, but you sound as if you are defending the school's practices.  I will join you in not being judgemental, except that I wonder how a TKD school can find the time to raise a TKD student from 1st to 2nd, or 2nd to 3rd, or whatever, in one year?  Quite a feat wouldn't you think?  And before you say they may have set aside their TKD curriculim to teach only Hapkido, why would they require the potential student to have a BB in TKD.

I think I can safely say you wouldn't run your school that way would you sir?


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## miguksaram (May 4, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Why call to ask them what is already clearly  presented in the flyer? No interpretation required, simply reading what  they have put on paper.


Ok...so you did not call them. Are you afraid to contact them directly to confirm your assumption?



			
				KSD said:
			
		

> You have answered your own question;


No, I simply  asked you to find out more information, which apparently you do not feel  the need to.  You seem content on just assuming your interpretation of  the whole thing is 100% correct...which it could very well be, but alas, you will never know.



> You think? You said it, not me. I'm just commenting on the contents of the flyer.


Do  not try to put words in my mouth or quote only part of what I said.   Here is what I said 





			
				me said:
			
		

> They may be selling rank.  They may be  testing people in their group who  have been doing HKD for a while but never had a chance to test.  I do  not know for certain


So I do not know what their intentions  are, but then again, I am not the one posting this on a board with remarks like 





> Great news for anyone wanting a HKD BB to compliment their TKD BB,  without the fuss of actually having to train for one (at least beyond  two days).





			
				KSD said:
			
		

> Well according to my  instructor, who was HMK...as well as your buddy Glenn who knows GM LEE  personally and has stated authoritatively...HMK TKD is strictly KKW  sport TKD. No SD element beyond what is contained in the KKW curriculum.  So 'doing HKD for a while' isn't within the scope of what the HMK is  all about, according to the GM of HMK as well as those who are/were  associated directly with them. And 'doing HKD for a while' isn't quite  the same as actually training in HKD. Or do you disagree?


I  disagree with your interpretation.  Because if you understood KKW TKD  you would first, above all else, know that there is not such thing as  KKW Sport TKD.  There is KKW TKD, which has a sport aspect.  Secondly  KKW does not regulate what a school can and cannot have as part of their  curriculum, outside of the requirements for KKW certification.  This has been stated many  times on this board, but some people either cannot grasp this concept or just choose to state or feel  otherwise.  With that said, the US HMK could have their own SD  curriculum that is regulated by another organization.  For all I know  someone has been teaching them the IHF HKD curriculum.  So those who  have trained in it may not have received formal rank but could still  know the curriculum.  As I am not part of them I do not know.  I can say  without a doubt that if they do, then KKW would not care.  Again, I am  not the one posting this on here in the first place.  I am simply asking if you did any research prior to posting it.



> Pass judgement? I don't recall having made a specific judgement  really. I've offered the flyer and the facts of what the flyer states.  Let the reader decide for themselves the merit of what is  offered.


On the contrary, your first post about this whole thing has already shown you to pass judgement.  If you wanted the reader to decided for themselves you could have simply posted the link and said, "What do you think about this?"  Instead you had to throw in your remarks which prejudice the reader from the beginning.  You can deny not passing judgement, but the fact that you will not contact them directly for clarification of what they require or even for confirmation of what you believe it to be, shows that you have already decided what all of this is about.


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## miguksaram (May 4, 2012)

oftheherd1 said:


> It is probably not what you intended sir, but you sound as if you are defending the school's practices.  I will join you in not being judgemental, except that I wonder how a TKD school can find the time to raise a TKD student from 1st to 2nd, or 2nd to 3rd, or whatever, in one year?  Quite a feat wouldn't you think?  And before you say they may have set aside their TKD curriculim to teach only Hapkido, why would they require the potential student to have a BB in TKD.


You are right, that I am not defending this school or organization.  Just trying to get more clarification of the facts, not interpretations.  It is not unheard of from promoting to a 2nd degree in one year.  However, I do admit going from 1st to 3rd or 2nd to 3rd within a year does throw up the red flag.  There are exceptions to the rule but for the most part it is not done very often, that I know of.



> I think I can safely say you wouldn't run your school that way would you sir?


I would prohibit any student in my school to promote to a rank that they were not eligible or qualified in receiving.


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## Daniel Sullivan (May 4, 2012)

miguksaram said:


> Has anyone tried contacting the IHF directly to clarify the actual requirements?  Do you know if this was mass marketed to every martial art school or marketed directly to the TKD schools within the US Hanmookwan organization?  Which IHF is sponsoring this and what is their overall record of quality?  (If you look up International Hapkido Federation on google you will receive several different orgs with several different leaders)


One thought that I had was that it could be specifically for those taekwondoin who have received instruction in hapkido but hold no actual rank.  The seminar may be the opportunity for those who have learned hapkido (as opposed to just a few joint locks) but hold no formal rank the opportunity to work with hapkido masters and to take a formal test and thus hold the rank that their skills are matched to.

I will refrain from passing judgement, and as I really don't care, I had no plans to contact the org; I already hold rank in the art and was taught by instructors with IHF lineage, even if through a non affiliated school.

The flier's wording makes it an easy target for an internet thread, but I question, as others on this thread have, whether this flier was meant for a general audience, as well as whether or not the flier assumed that the people who were going to receive it would already have a level of knowledge and training prior to the seminar.


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## Kong Soo Do (May 4, 2012)

miguksaram said:


> Ok...so you did not call them.



Nope.  Didn't see the need, as I've already mentioned, since the information is clearly stated in their flyer.  



> Are you afraid to contact them directly to confirm your assumption?



No assumptions made, just comments on what is clearly listed in the flyer.  I take them for what they've stated.



> No, I simply asked you to find out more information, which apparently you do not feel the need to.



Are you sure?  If you're so curious about it, have you called them?



> Because if you understood KKW TKD you would first, above all else, know that there is not such thing as KKW Sport TKD. There is KKW TKD, which has a sport aspect.



Semantics and word games on your part to divert the topic.  Whatever you may consider as SD for KKW schools...it probably isn't full-fledged Hapkido.  Do you disagree?


> For all I know someone has been teaching them the IHF HKD curriculum.



Have you actually read the flyer?  To begin with, it is a flyer to TKD schools in general.  Nothing in the flyer denotes a specific school, being taught a specific curriculum.  One again...a TKD school, not a HKD school.  And though HKD 'stuff' may have been taught, it wasn't 'uniquely recognized' as HKD.  That's pretty general, and it is a stretch to even suggest any of them have been learning IHF HKD Jeremy.  You know that, I know that and so does everyone else reading this thread.  What HKD 'stuff' is taught at one TKD school may and will differ from what is taught at another TKD school.  You can have no definitive standard on what was taught, who it was taught by or how to test for it.

Yet somehow a person is now able to get a BB, possibly higher than 1st Dan after learning some HKD 'stuff' in their TKD school and taking a two-day seminar.


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## Kong Soo Do (May 4, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> One thought that I had was that it could be specifically for those taekwondoin who have received instruction in hapkido but hold no actual rank. The seminar may be the opportunity for those who have learned hapkido (as opposed to just a few joint locks) but hold no formal rank the opportunity to work with hapkido masters and to take a formal test and thus hold the rank that their skills are matched to.



Let's take a look at this for a moment Daniel.  Okay, the TKD'in has received HKD training beyond just some 'stuff' tossed into the class.  Let's now say that HKD training is pretty much the same as any HKD'in would get at a HKD school.  Here's are the questions...who is teaching them HKD?  And why did he/she not rank them in HKD themselves?  Did they not have HKD rank themselves?  In that case, why are they teaching HKD?  How would you consider the HKD taught by this 'instructor' as quality HKD?  How would it differ from school to school?  Again, look at the flyer, it is going out to Grandmasters, Masters, Instructors and black belts.  That appears pretty general.  I don't see it as specific to any small group, being taught a specific HKD curriculum.  Do you think they'd turn anyone away?  Seriously.  

So as I stated to Jeremy, I think it is a real stretch to even suggest that this is meant for TKD schools that have had in-depth and continuous HKD training...by someone with no HKD rank...that can't certify them himself or give them any rank.


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## Archtkd (May 4, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> http://www.gmwons.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Hapkido-Info.pdf
> 
> Great news for anyone wanting a HKD BB to compliment their TKD BB, without the fuss of actually having to train for one (at least beyond two days). And better yet, you may not have to start at 1st Dan, it could be higher. There are stringent requirements though so be forwarned, you need a TKD BB and you will have to attend at least two days training time to be eligible to test for a HKD BB. That's a whole weekend!
> 
> ...



So much for the so called "independents." It's interesting to note who is hosting this event: http://www.komudokwan.com/hanmookwan.html


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## Archtkd (May 4, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> You may have to wait for another KKW special testing for that BB.



These are the folks you should be referring him to:  http://www.komudokwan.com/hanmookwan.html


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## miguksaram (May 4, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Nope.  Didn't see the need, as I've already  mentioned, since the information is clearly stated in their flyer.


A flyer that was posted on their site, most likely intended  for their students and people from their organization, unless, of  course, you know the answer to the other question which is whether or  not they posted this to anyone and everyone.  However, if it is just  their organization then we are outsiders looking in and really do not  know what they are doing.



> No assumptions made, just comments on what is clearly listed in the flyer.  I take them for what they've stated.


That's fine.  Just curious, do you also decide who you vote for as a President based on what they put on a flyer?




> Are you sure?  If you're so curious about it, have you called them?


Actually  I sent an email to them inviting them over to read the thread and  participate if they so wish.  That way we can hear directly from them  and not assume anything.  Like Mst. Sullivan, I personally do not care  either way.  I have no desire for a HKD BB, nor do I have the  qualifications to achieve one anytime soon.    



> Semantics and word games on your part to divert the topic.   Whatever you may consider as SD for KKW schools...it probably isn't  full-fledged Hapkido.  Do you disagree?


No it is not  semantics.  Nor am I trying to divert from the topic.  You asked a  question I answered it.  I teach Kukkiwon Taekwondo.  There is no art  that is Kukkiwon Sport Taekwondo.  As for KKW TKD schools not teaching  full fledge HKD, each school is different.  I would say for the a vast  majority that statement may hold true.  However, there are schools that  do teach a full HKD curriculum and are KKW schools. Since I have not  been in every KKW school that also teaches HKD, I cannot give a  definitive answer.  




> Have you actually read the flyer?  To begin with, it is a flyer  to TKD schools in general.  Nothing in the flyer denotes a specific  school, being taught a specific curriculum.  One again...a TKD school,  not a HKD school.  And though HKD 'stuff' may have been taught, it  wasn't 'uniquely recognized' as HKD.  That's pretty general, and it is a  stretch to even suggest any of them have been learning IHF HKD Jeremy.   You know that, I know that and so does everyone else reading this  thread.  What HKD 'stuff' is taught at one TKD school may and will  differ from what is taught at another TKD school.  You can have no  definitive standard on what was taught, who it was taught by or how to  test for it.


Yes, have you bothered to look into anything passed the flyer?  The flyer is buried inside of a school website in their events section.  A school, I will add, that teaches HKD.  Did you even go that far prior to posting?  

Now if you want to open up an investigation on GM Won, who is the head instructor, and question him about his HKD knowledge feel free. 



> Yet somehow a person is now able to get a BB, possibly higher than 1st  Dan after learning some HKD 'stuff' in their TKD school and taking a  two-day seminar.


Perhaps you need to reread the flyer.  The flyer states that you can take a black belt test.  It does not say anywhere that you can just automatically test for a 2nd or 3rd dan.  It does say that those who took AND passed the black belt exam last year are eligible to test this year for their next rank.  Which, as I stated earlier is not unheard of.  Even your IKSDA lists that you only need 1 year TIG from 1st to 2nd dan.


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## Daniel Sullivan (May 4, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Let's take a look at this for a moment Daniel.  Okay, the TKD'in has received HKD training beyond just some 'stuff' tossed into the class.  Let's now say that HKD training is pretty much the same as any HKD'in would get at a HKD school.  Here's are the questions...who is teaching them HKD?  And why did he/she not rank them in HKD themselves?  Did they not have HKD rank themselves?  In that case, why are they teaching HKD?


You'd have to ask them that; I'm sure that they'd have their own story.  As I recall, you consider yourself to be a hapkidoist even though  you hold no formal grade in hapkido.  I'm not going to speculate if you are or aren't; I've never trained with you, so I have no basis to evaluate what you do.  But if its good enough for you, then why would it not be good enough for someone else?

*Edit: *There was a discussion here some time back about the value of Kukkiwon rank.  Someone here trained under a high dan instructor who was no longer issuing KKW grade; only in house grade.  A situation like that certainly would put someone in such a position as well.  And yet, Puunui's statement that an instructor should issue the same certifications he was given was not at all well received.

And that's the funny thing about rank outside of an organization or about training for which rank has not been awarded; when it applies to ourselves, it makes perfect sense and we get defensive when people question our training or whether or not what we practice is legitimate.  And yet, when we are on the outside looking in, it is very easy for us to raise the same questions that made us uncomfortable.

And I do speak first hand: my HKD and kendo grades are not with any recognized organization.  They are dojang and dojo dans respectively, and I have found myself on the defensive.  So I try not to be too quick to judge the grades of others.



Kong Soo Do said:


> How would you consider the HKD taught by this 'instructor' as quality HKD?


Sight unseen?  I have basis for consideration.



Kong Soo Do said:


> How would it differ from school to school?  Again, look at the flyer, it is going out to Grandmasters, Masters, Instructors and black belts.  That appears pretty general.  I don't see it as specific to any small group, being taught a specific HKD curriculum.  Do you think they'd turn anyone away?  Seriously.


I have no idea who it went to as I don't have the distribution list of the sender.  As to whether or not they'd turn anyone away, well that is the wrong question.  Why should they turn people away from the seminar.  The question is what the criteria for grading is, what the expected pass/fail is, and how that compares to a conventional testing.  

You may recall that the Kukkiwon held a special testing a couple of years ago and they were slammed for it prior to it happening, but many of the people who showed up for the testing failed for the grades that they were testing for.  



Kong Soo Do said:


> So as I stated to Jeremy, I think it is a real stretch to even suggest that this is meant for TKD schools that have had in-depth and continuous HKD training...by someone with no HKD rank...that can't certify them himself or give them any rank.


Nobody would be speculating on this whatsoever had you not posted it.  As for whether or not its a stretch for him to suggest it?  It isn't that big of a stretch.  I'd call it being careful not jump to hard conclusions based on a flier that some guy randomly posted on an bulletin board.


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## Kong Soo Do (May 4, 2012)

miguksaram said:


> The flyer states that you can take a black belt test. It does not say anywhere that you can just automatically test for a 2nd or 3rd dan.



It states that it is a combination of your TKD BB rank and what you can demonstrate on the test.  First, HKD testing should have nothing to do with your TKD rank.  Second, by stating it is a combination of your TKD rank and what you do on the test indicates that it can be beyond just a first Dan.  Otherwise, why list it as a combination of two things?


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## Kong Soo Do (May 4, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> As I recall, you consider yourself to be a hapkidoist even though you hold no formal grade in hapkido.



I believe your thinking of someone else. I do have formal HKD rank.



> I'd call it being careful not jump to hard conclusions based on a flier that some guy randomly posted on an bulletin board.



That's fine. I'm not telling anyone what to think of the flyer. It says what it says and members can form their own opinions. If they wish to dig deeper, they can do that as well. If a HMK rep would like to come in and discuss the flier that would be great. I think it's pretty straight-forward. 

The stance that this is a HMK-only flier doesn't hold much water though. I received it from a HKD instructor who isn't a HMK TKD member who received it from someone that also isn't a HKD TKD member. At some point, the flier was sent out and others, outside of HMK TKD were included. But for grins, I'll contact them to find out definitively.


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## Daniel Sullivan (May 4, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> I believe your thinking of someone else. I do have formal HKD rank.


No, it was you; it was in one the many sparring matches between Puunui and yourself.  Been long enough that I don't recall the exact details though.  

Are you ranked in hapkido through a hapkido organization (if so, who) or are ranked through the IKSDA?
No value judgement regardless of your answer, but if your hapkido grade is through the IKSDA, then one could ask the same questions of you and you would be in the group that the seminar was aimed towards.


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## Kong Soo Do (May 4, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> And I do speak first hand: my HKD and kendo grades are not with any recognized organization. They are dojang and dojo dans respectively, and I have found myself on the defensive. So I try not to be too quick to judge the grades of others.



I just saw your edit.  For the record Daniel, I think a certificate of rank from your instructor (i.e. Dojo/Dojang) far outweighs an organizational certificate.  They are the one that trained you personally and know what you can/cannot do personally.  You should not be defensive in the least about your Dojang ranks.


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## Kong Soo Do (May 4, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> No, it was you; it was in one the many sparring matches between Puunui and yourself. Been long enough that I don't recall the exact details though.
> 
> Are you ranked in hapkido through a hapkido organization (if so, who) or are ranked through the IKSDA?
> No value judgement regardless of your answer, but if your hapkido grade is through the IKSDA, then one could ask the same questions of you and you would be in the group that the seminar was aimed towards.



It is both a Dojang and an HKD organization.  It is not the IKSDA, that is for KSD only.


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## Daniel Sullivan (May 4, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> I just saw your edit.  For the record Daniel, I think a certificate of rank from your instructor (i.e. Dojo/Dojang) far outweighs an organizational certificate.  They are the one that trained you personally and know what you can/cannot do personally.  You should not be defensive in the least about your Dojang ranks.


To an extent, I agree.  I think a lot of it depends on the art.  

But for some people, they feel that they need to have the support of an organization in order to be taken seriously, and they don't want to go the rout of a paper-mill.  Something like what is presented in this flier gives them the opportunity to do an actual test and be ranked with a legitimate organization.


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## Daniel Sullivan (May 4, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> It is both a Dojang and an HKD organization.  It is not the IKSDA, that is for KSD only.


Which hapkido organization?


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## Kong Soo Do (May 4, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> To an extent, I agree. I think a lot of it depends on the art.
> 
> But for some people, they feel that they need to have the support of an organization in order to be taken seriously, and they don't want to go the rout of a paper-mill. Something like what is presented in this flier gives them the opportunity to do an actual test and be ranked with a legitimate organization.



This drifts the thread a bit, which is fine, but wouldn't it really boil down to what you can demonstrate and/or teach?  Wouldn't that be more of a factor for legitimacy-testing than whether or not you belong to this or that org.  Or whether or not you belong to one at all?  I can think of quite a number of people that belong to a 'legitimate' organization that don't really know much about the art they profess to be a master in.  

As far as my HKD org, does it matter?  It is backed by a Korean GM...but does that matter?  He's legite and one of the original seniors...but does it matter?  What does matter is, can I use Hapkido for SD?  Have I ever used it in SD?  How many times and what was the outcome?  That would speak more to my Hapkido skills than would a piece of paper with a certain persons name on it.  Or what I wear (or in my case, don't wear) around my waist.  Can I teach?  How well do I teach?  Those are the types of questions that should be asked.  For the record, the last time I used Hapkido (or Kong Soo Do) against a real person, who was determined, violent and resisting was last Monday.  I won, he lost.  That speaks more than paper.  That isn't me patting myself on the back, the same goes for anyone.

As far as the thread, do I really care if a bunch of TKD guys/gals get a BB in HKD without really having trained in HKD?  Not really.  More power to them.  What I actually care about is that whatever they've learned is practical and can really be used in self-defense.  But it is interesting to see what others are going to say.


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## zDom (May 4, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> As far as the thread, do I really care if a bunch of TKD guys/gals get a BB in HKD without really having trained in HKD?  Not really.




I do.

If this is indeed the case, it is a bunch of crap.

How would they like it if someone taught a weekend of TKD and passed out dan ranks? How would they like it if those ranks came with KKW certification?

Whatever.


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## chrispillertkd (May 4, 2012)

zDom said:


> How would they like it if someone taught a weekend of TKD and passed out dan ranks? How would they like it if those ranks came with KKW certification?



Such a thing would never happen. Being promoted multiple dan levels after a weekend seminar, that's something else, however 

Pax,

Chris


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## ETinCYQX (May 4, 2012)

zDom said:


> I do.
> 
> If this is indeed the case, it is a bunch of crap.
> 
> ...



The wisdom locally is that a TKD practitioner of a certain rank can be loosely considered to be 2 keup/dan grades below that rank in Hapkido as well. That's because of the extensive self defense curriculum we teach which is derived entirely from HKD. How valid that is, I don't know. I would be interested to see where my knowledge is on the Hapkido side of things.


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## troubleenuf (May 4, 2012)

This is similar to one of the things that led me to leave my instructor.  He held a weekend seminar taught 12 techniques and promoted EVERYONE to black belt in Hapkido.  Those people now claim to be Masters in Hapkido.  They did the same thing for Kumdo, weekend seminar equals Black Belt. To me this just degrades their actual TKD training and tarnishes their legitimate black belt.  These guys all now advertise that they are "Triple Masters" but I am pretty sure they couldnt pass a legitimate Black Belt test in either Hapkido or Kumdo.  Of course the Grandmaster charged them $1500 each for the weekend seminar (that was for Black Belt... Im sure it was CONSIDERABLY more for the ranks above 1st Dan).  A great money making racket for him.  A shame that they all blindly followed along with it.


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## Daniel Sullivan (May 4, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> This drifts the thread a bit, which is fine, but wouldn't it really boil down to what you can demonstrate and/or teach?  Wouldn't that be more of a factor for legitimacy-testing than whether or not you belong to this or that org.  Or whether or not you belong to one at all?  I can think of quite a number of people that belong to a 'legitimate' organization that don't really know much about the art they profess to be a master in.


It depends on what one is trying to evaluate.



Kong Soo Do said:


> As far as my HKD org, does it matter?  It is backed by a Korean GM...but does that matter?  He's legite and one of the original seniors...but does it matter?  What does matter is, can I use Hapkido for SD?  Have I ever used it in SD?  How many times and what was the outcome?  That would speak more to my Hapkido skills than would a piece of paper with a certain persons name on it.  Or what I wear (or in my case, don't wear) around my waist.  Can I teach?  How well do I teach?  Those are the types of questions that should be asked.  For the record, the last time I used Hapkido (or Kong Soo Do) against a real person, who was determined, violent and resisting was last Monday.  I won, he lost.  That speaks more than paper.  That isn't me patting myself on the back, the same goes for anyone.


I'd say yes, it matters.  

If you're willing to take swipes at the Kukkiwon/WTF, if you're willing to post things like this and call attention to another hapkido organization, and if you're willing go after a long standing hapkido GM (GM Ji) and question his qualifications, you should be willing to share your own.  

While you're not obligated to share your hkd org., it certainly does undermine your credibility; if you didn't share any organizational information at all, I'd say that you're consistent.  However, you are ready, willing and able to promote your KSD organization, so that is an inconsistency.  If you're willing to tell people who you're ranked with in one art, why hide who you're ranked in in another?  Especially given that you aren't shy about posting in the hapkido section.

If you don't want to share, then you don't want to share, and I'm not going to press the issue any further.  But your comment above would lead many reading it to question whether you are being honest about having a hapkido background, as it reads like something a politician would say when they don't want to answer an uncomfortable question.  



Kong Soo Do said:


> As far as the thread, do I really care if a bunch of TKD guys/gals get a BB in HKD without really having trained in HKD?  Not really.  More power to them.  *What I actually care about is that whatever they've learned is practical and can really be used in self-defense.*  But it is interesting to see what others are going to say.


The only way to answer that is to put in for some time off, dent your visa or master card and go to the seminar and see first hand.

Unless you (or anyone else) are willing to do that, then anything that we say about it is speculation.  Given that the organization in question is the one that my hapkido lineage is through, it does raise my eyebrows.  But since I'm not willing to go to Oklahoma to investigate first hand, I'll stick with what I've said about it thus far and go no further.


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## Archtkd (May 4, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> I believe your thinking of someone else. I do have formal HKD rank.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I thought Kong Soo Do, your system (or its founders) had lineage in Han Moo Kwan, which is the same lineage as that of the founders of the non-Kukkiwon affiliated U.S. Central Taekwondo Association, the organization which is hosting the Hapkido seminar.


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## Daniel Sullivan (May 4, 2012)

troubleenuf said:


> This is similar to one of the things that led me to leave my instructor.  He held a weekend seminar taught 12 techniques and promoted EVERYONE to black belt in Hapkido.  Those people now claim to be Masters in Hapkido.  They did the same thing for Kumdo, weekend seminar equals Black Belt. To me this just degrades their actual TKD training and tarnishes their legitimate black belt.  These guys all now advertise that they are "Triple Masters" but I am pretty sure they couldnt pass a legitimate Black Belt test in either Hapkido or Kumdo.  Of course the Grandmaster charged them $1500 each for the weekend seminar (that was for Black Belt... Im sure it was CONSIDERABLY more for the ranks above 1st Dan).  A great money making racket for him.  A shame that they all blindly followed along with it.


I saw a school go from having a great deal of integrity to this kind of nonsense a while back.  Interestingly, in hapkido and kumdo.


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## oftheherd1 (May 5, 2012)

ETinCYQX said:


> The wisdom locally is that a TKD practitioner of a certain rank can be loosely considered to be 2 keup/dan grades below that rank in Hapkido as well. That's because of the extensive self defense curriculum we teach which is derived entirely from HKD. How valid that is, I don't know. I would be interested to see where my knowledge is on the Hapkido side of things.



I don't know your school's teachings, so it is difficult for me to comment.  But in general I would say that doesn't make sense to me.  It makes it sound like you should all be dual belted.  That is possible, but very unusual to mix all those things together at one time.  Does your school in fact dual belt?  Are your teachers also belted in Hapkido?  Why isn't your SD upped just a notch so all can be dual belted, by teachers who are themselves qualified in both Hapkido and TKD?  It just seems if you have legitimate Hapkido belted teachers they should be able to test and award Hapkido rank as well.

All that said, if your school is teaching TKD and Hapkido, it sounds like it is neither TKD nor a Hapkido school, but a very interesting school.


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## oftheherd1 (May 5, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> This drifts the thread a bit, which is fine, but wouldn't it really boil down to what you can demonstrate and/or teach?  Wouldn't that be more of a factor for legitimacy-testing than whether or not you belong to this or that org.  Or whether or not you belong to one at all?  I can think of quite a number of people that belong to a 'legitimate' organization that don't really know much about the art they profess to be a master in.



Traditionally, no.  The legitimacy of a teacher to teach an art, his ability to teach, and his background are indeed important.  An organization that doesn't well manage its belting system calls it belting system into question.



Kong Soo Do said:


> As far as my HKD org, does it matter?  It is backed by a Korean GM...but does that matter?  He's legite and one of the original seniors...but does it matter?  What does matter is, can I use Hapkido for SD?  Have I ever used it in SD?  How many times and what was the outcome?  That would speak more to my Hapkido skills than would a piece of paper with a certain persons name on it.  Or what I wear (or in my case, don't wear) around my waist.  Can I teach?  How well do I teach?  Those are the types of questions that should be asked.  For the record, the last time I used Hapkido (or Kong Soo Do) against a real person, who was determined, violent and resisting was last Monday.  I won, he lost.  That speaks more than paper.  That isn't me patting myself on the back, the same goes for anyone.



To other martial artists, it usually does matter who someone has studied under, or rather that the school and teacher were themselves legitimate.  With so many McDojos, those of us who have earned our BB the traditional way, tend to think others should have done so as well to earn our acceptance.  Your evasion as to your teacher and school affiliation, for whatever reason, may have a tendency to make people wonder why you are evasive.  Is there something about your teacher and/or ranking that you think others would not accept?



Kong Soo Do said:


> As far as the thread, do I really care if a bunch of TKD guys/gals get a BB in HKD without really having trained in HKD?  Not really.  More power to them.  What I actually care about is that whatever they've learned is practical and can really be used in self-defense.  But it is interesting to see what others are going to say.



I care.  First because if they haven't trained, how can what they have learned be practical?  If they have a very limited set of tools, their SD will also be limited.  Sold as a seminar of limited Hapkido techniques, it would be OK.  But to imply they are experienced, belted, Hapkido practitioners from 14 hours of training, insults my training and ranking.


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## Kong Soo Do (May 5, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> It depends on what one is trying to evaluate.



Daniel, with all due respect, that is just a pure crap answer from you and frankly I expect better from you. What else would you evaluate from someone other than what their level of skill is or, if they teach, their ability to teach. Evaluating what they have hanging on their wall, or what they wear around their waist doesn't speak to either of those things with all the nonsense that goes on in the arts these days. This thread, and others shared experiences speak to this fact.



> If you're willing to take swipes at the Kukkiwon/WTF, if you're willing to post things like this and call attention to another hapkido organization, and if you're willing go after a long standing hapkido GM (GM Ji) and question his qualifications, you should be willing to share your own.



Let's take a look at your complaint; I don't take swipes at KKW/WTF TKD. I speak on my experience and opinion with and of them. I comment factually based upon that experience and I'm straight-forward with my opinion of what it is, and what it is not. I haven't 'gone after' any long standing GM, I've asked questions and put forth opinions and further questions based upon the information and answers presented. Any questionable circumstanced they may or may not have in their background has nothing to do with my background or any organization to which I may belong. 

I suggest you try a bit more consistency. From now on, in each and every thread in which someone posts something that upsets you, be sure to ask each and every person their instructors name, what organization they belong to, how long they train and all the other usual thread-diverting questions. Don't just save it for those that don't agree with you all the time. 




> While you're not obligated to share your hkd org., it certainly does undermine your credibility...



Why? I can't have an opinion or make an observation without first stating my background for your approval? Does that apply to everyone in this thread? Do they need to first state their training history, rank(s) achieved and any organization they belong to before they post in this or any other thread? My HKD org has nothing to do with this thread. Nor does anybody elses HKD org, with the possible exception of you since you belong to the org in question?



> However, you are ready, willing and able to promote your KSD organization...



Have I? I don't remember talking about the IKSDA that much except when asked. In the last year I posted two free seminars open to MT members if they were interested. 

How about you stick to the topic of the thread Daniel and let's see where it takes us. Think you can do that?


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## Kong Soo Do (May 5, 2012)

Archtkd said:


> I thought Kong Soo Do, your system (or its founders) had lineage in Han Moo Kwan, which is the same lineage as that of the founders of the non-Kukkiwon affiliated U.S. Central Taekwondo Association, the organization which is hosting the Hapkido seminar.



One of the founders has lineage through the HMK, that is from over two decades ago and the affiliation ended then.  Not associated with USCTA.


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## Kong Soo Do (May 5, 2012)

oftheherd1 said:


> Traditionally, no. The legitimacy of a teacher to teach an art, his ability to teach, and his background are indeed important. An organization that doesn't well manage its belting system calls it belting system into question.



So you're answer was 'yes', as this is what I was stating.




> To other martial artists, it usually does matter who someone has studied under, or rather that the school and teacher were themselves legitimate.



And this is incorrect thinking on their part.  A person could train under the best instructor in the world and still suck.  A person could train under a no or low ranked 'nobody' and be able to beat the snot out of real bad guys.  Your instructor doesn't reflect on what you can do as a martial artist.  Your organization doesn't reflect on what you can do as a martial artist.  Let's say for a moment that the topic of this thread is two legitimate organizations doing something that perhaps isn't quite legitimate.  Let's say you take the seminar and take the test and with very little actual HKD knowledge you get a HKD BB.  Does that make you reputable and legitimate as an actual HKD BB since those two organizations are 'legitimate' to most people?  Does their alledged legitimacy simply cover you like a warm blanket?  If this Korean GM is 'legitimate' does that automatically make you legitimate with this HKD BB rank he gives you?  Seriously people...does it!?!

I'll say it straight out and if it chaps people's hides then so be it.  Your instructor and/or organization has absolutely nothing to do with how proficent you (general you) are going to be as a martial artist.  Those that resort, on internet boards or elsewhere, to asking these types of questions about people in order to evaluate a persons personal legitimacy/ability don't have clue or are simply trying to take the thread off topic and down a rabbit hole...or both.  My instructor(s) aren't in this thread talking about the topic.  My organization isn't in this thread talking about the topic.  I'm the one in this thread talking about this topic.  If you want to know what I know and see what my level of experience is in an area of the martial arts then I invite you (general you) to come visit me personally.  Evaluate me firsthand and then feel free to report back to the MT membership everything you've discovered.  I stand on my own merits, not on the merits of whose name is on a piece of paper in a folder somewhere in my cabinet.  Anyone that stands on the merits of another's name, quite frankly is a putz.


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## Jaeimseu (May 5, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Let's take a look at your complaint; I don't take swipes at KKW/WTF TKD. I speak on my experience and opinion with and of them. I comment factually based upon that experience and I'm straight-forward with my opinion of what it is, and what it is not.


With all due respect, I would characterize your comment regarding the Kukkiwon special testing "taking a swipe" at Kukkiwon. If not, how would you characterize your comment?


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## Jaeimseu (May 5, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> So you're answer was 'yes', as this is what I was stating.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You seem to be taking a contradictory stance here, or am I reading you wrong? On the one hand, you are questioning the legitimacy of a/an group/instructor without seeing first hand what they are physically capable of, but telling anyone who asks you a question that they must see you first hand to pass any judgement.

I didn't think Daniel Sullivan (or whoever it was) was trying to "call you out" by asking about your Hapkido background. You seem to be questioning the legitimacy of an organization's testing/rank policy, so it seems to me a natural question to ask about your Hapkido background to understand where you are coming from, but by appearing to be evasive in response to the question, you invite further questions. I know you previously experienced some threads in which people questioned your background (and I am not questioning your background), so that may be playing into the defensive tone of your posts here.


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## Kong Soo Do (May 5, 2012)

Jaeimseu said:


> With all due respect, I would characterize your comment regarding the Kukkiwon special testing "taking a swipe" at Kukkiwon. If not, how would you characterize your comment?



By stating it for what it is, and is not.  Some get offended if you think people should actually need to be present at a testing.  Or they get offended if you think that a master's test should consist of something more than 1 minute of sparring and two forms.  Or if you see it as questionable skipping multiple ranks as long as the highest three are paid for in advance.  That isn't a swipe, that is an opinion based upon the information in the special testing flier.



> You seem to be taking a contradictory stance here, or am I reading you wrong?



Going only on the flier, as presented, it appears that a person can test for a HKD BB after two days worth of training as long as they have a TKD BB and pass the test.  I find that suspect, at best.  Looking back at the thread, it appears that people with no HKD training have offered their opinion.  Is that okay?  There have been people who haven't offered one way or the other whether or not they have HKD training.  Is that okay?  There are those that have HKD training, and I haven't seen them asked what their organization is or why it would matter.  Is that okay?  I have nothing to hide, but I'm standing on principle and calling out this form of BS from a few that go this route when the conversation gets hot or they aren't getting the answers they want.  Simple as that.  I have master ranking in HKD from an actual instructor in HKD.  Got a real nice cert and everything with his signature.  He isn't here on the board...I am.  I'm speaking for me.  The organization is run by an actual Korean GM that is pretty well known.  He probably doesn't even know this board exists.  He isn't speaking for me, I'm speaking for myself.  So it doesn't matter whether I know anything about HKD or if I have a HKD BB or if I have master ranking or who my instructor is or what org I may or may not belong to.  I stand on my own responses and they can be accepted or disregarded as the reader sees fit.  

Put another way, I doesn't matter whether I test for my next promotion in HKD in a few years or throw all my certs out the window today.  My experience is my own and is the subject matter of the content of my posts.  Rather than ask me who my instructor is, ask me what I know about HKD.  Ask me if I've ever actually used it against a real bad guy.  Those types of question will give you (general you) more insight into why I take the postion(s) I have in my posts.  I hope you understand the point I'm trying to make here.


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## Kong Soo Do (May 5, 2012)

Let me see if I can explain this another way; I detest people that ride the coat tails of other people. I detest people that name drop as though it reflects something on themselves or their ability. Too me, those people are 'all show and no go'. That is my viewpoint. The instructor that promoted me last in HKD is one I sought out due to his ability as well as his well known and well respected reputation. But he isn't here and I don't speak for him. I speak for myself. I'm not 'special' just because of who he is or what he's done. Whether or not I suck or whether I'm competent is based upon my effort more than his teaching ability. Same for the Korean GM who heads the organization. He's a well-known 'senior'. So what? Doesn't mean I know jack. I've got a real nice masters cert. So what? Lots of people do and they don't know jack. If I'm talking about how to do an outside wrist takedown and say it is done by jumping up and kicking the guy in the head then you can surmiss I don't know jack about how to do an outside wrist takedown and thus I don't know jack about HKD.

But we're not talking technique. Where talking about the validity of testing for a HKD BB after a weekend with the requirement of having a TKD BB. I don't have to have a HKD BB to be able to offer an opinion. Hell, I could have gotten my masters cert out of a bubble gum machine and still be able to offer an opinion as to the level of validity...

Anyway, I'm done with this diversion. Back to the topic please.


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## Daniel Sullivan (May 5, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Daniel, with all due respect, that is just a pure crap answer from you and frankly I expect better from you. What else would you evaluate from someone other than what their level of skill is or, if they teach, their ability to teach. Evaluating what they have hanging on their wall, or what they wear around their waist doesn't speak to either of those things with all the nonsense that goes on in the arts these days. This thread, and others shared experiences speak to this fact.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


For one, I had no complaint.  If you chose to view it as one, then that is your perception.  You asked if it mattered.  I said yes and did you the courtesy of telling you why it mattered.  If that bothers you, then my apologies.  

As for ready willing and able to promote your KSD org, and its fine that you do, you do so in threads when you have discussed it and you promote it in your signatures, just as I do my own studio.

If you think my answer is crap, then so be it, but it is my answer.


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## Daniel Sullivan (May 5, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> This drifts the thread a bit, which is fine, but wouldn't it really boil down to what you can demonstrate and/or teach?  Wouldn't that be more of a factor for legitimacy-testing than whether or not you belong to this or that org.  Or whether or not you belong to one at all?  I can think of quite a number of people that belong to a 'legitimate' organization that don't really know much about the art they profess to be a master in.


If you want a more in depth answer, then here it is.  

If I am evaluating your general technical skill, my evaluation will be different than if I am evaluating your knowledge of my organization's curriculum.  So from that perspective, the organization does matter.

An organization differentiates itself from other organizations most often by a difference in technical content.  If you're doing Bujinkan material at an IHF grading, yes, it makes a difference.  Because while your Bujinkan stuff might be great, it isn't hapkido, and specifically, it isn't IHF hapkido.

There is usually something different from organization to organization in how techniques are executed.  Look at how a roundhouse kick differs between Shotokan and Kukkiwon.  If you do all of your techniques 'taekwondo' at a Shotokan grading, wouldn't you think that it would make a difference?

Also, if I am evaluating them for a first dan, I will be looking at different things than if I am evaluating them for a license to teach the art.


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## ETinCYQX (May 5, 2012)

oftheherd1 said:


> I don't know your school's teachings, so it is difficult for me to comment.  But in general I would say that doesn't make sense to me.  It makes it sound like you should all be dual belted.  That is possible, but very unusual to mix all those things together at one time.  Does your school in fact dual belt?  Are your teachers also belted in Hapkido?  Why isn't your SD upped just a notch so all can be dual belted, by teachers who are themselves qualified in both Hapkido and TKD?  It just seems if you have legitimate Hapkido belted teachers they should be able to test and award Hapkido rank as well.
> 
> All that said, if your school is teaching TKD and Hapkido, it sounds like it is neither TKD nor a Hapkido school, but a very interesting school.



No official HKD rank I am aware of, and it isn't issued. 

Our self defense includes arm locks, wrist locks, grappling sparring, even live rolling, etc. It's a nice thing to have added.


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## Kong Soo Do (May 6, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> If I am evaluating your general technical skill, my evaluation will be different than if I am evaluating your knowledge of my organization's curriculum. So from that perspective, the organization does matter.
> 
> An organization differentiates itself from other organizations most often by a difference in technical content.





			
				Kong Soo Do said:
			
		

> I can think of quite a number of people that belong to a 'legitimate' organization that don't really know much about the art they profess to be a master in.



From my perspective, I am less interested in an organization's technical nuance than I am whether the principle/techniqe/movement is a sound one against a violent, resisting attacker. Although very effective SD principles/techniques/movements can be learned in a short amount of time, such as a weekend seminar, I doubt that this would be the case with this particular seminar. As I've mentioned repeatedly, I doubt that any HMK TKD school in attendance (or any other school attending) has the same technical foundation. Thus, the 'test' involved could likely only cover what was demonstrated in a 2-day seminar. Thus, regardless of what may or may not be known prior, the full spectrum of what most would likely consider 'Hapkido' could not have been covered. Certainly not to a 1st Dan level (or beyond according to the flier). 

Unless we are to assume that each an every TKD school in attendance has also trained their students to within two days of a HKD BB test, using the same organizational technical nuances as each other, thereby providing the proper foundation for a comprehensive, standardized test. Would anyone like to make this assumption? I wouldn't.


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## Archtkd (May 6, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> One of the founders has lineage through the HMK, that is from over two decades ago and the affiliation ended then.  Not associated with USCTA.



Thanks for clarifying. Maybe it's time to let bygone be bygones.


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## oftheherd1 (May 6, 2012)

I have been thinking about this quite a bit, before and after I read  Kong Soo Do's other thread about telling our organization.    I have  some sympathy for the view that a person should be able to demonstrate  their own abilities, and be able to stand on that..  I do understand that a lot of good teachers in all  arts are not world famous, so naming a particular teacher, who might be  very capable as both a practitioner and a teacher, might mean nothing  to others.  That teacher would likely be well known within his own  organization's other senior teachers, but not necessarily outside of his  organization, and certainly not outside of his art.  Not many really  great masters and grandmasters become world famous.  

I still  think it is not wrong to acknowledge your teacher when asked.  Or your  organization.  Not doing so raises flags in many people's minds.  It  doesn't mean a person hasn't gone through a rigorous period of training  and testing and hasn't earned what they claim, but not doing so just  makes people wonder why not.  I am very proud of studying under GM Lee  Chong Moon (or Yi Chong Mun).  He was my teacher and a friend.  His Kwan  was Soong Moo Kwan.  Our patch said Korean Hapkido Association.  My BB  certificates say korean Hapkido Federation.  I never questioned that, I  guess I just assumed it was differences in different people's  translations.  I was more interested in what he was teaching and what I  could learn than how an organization assembled itself.  It never  occurred to me there might be other organizations that had or claimed  legitimacy.  What was important to me was my GM's abilities that he had  and that he was able to teach successfully.  I will always speak of  studying under him with pride.  Not that I am or ever thought I was so  good, but that he thought I was, to the level he promoted me.

Kong  Soo Do says he should be evaluated on his own abilities.  That is hard  to argue against.  But on a forum it is difficult to demonstrate one's  abilities, only to talk about them.  Mind you, Kong Soo Do speaks well,  and as one who knows what he is speaking about.  I have no facts to say  he isn't just what he says he is, so I take him at his word.  But he did  not learn all by himself.  He had one or more teachers.  Unless there  is some reason they don't want to be identified with a person, I think  they deserve the respect and honor we give them when we acknowledge  them.  

I don't know why Kong Soo Do is disinclined to give his  teacher(s) name(s).  As long as it isn't false pride, I guess it isn't  my business; well really, even if it is false pride.  That is something  he will have to deal with and live with.  If it is for some other  reason, I will leave that with him to explain when he feels like it ...  or not.  I will continue to evaluate  what he says on its merits as I do with all posters here.  So far I have  no problems and actually agree with most of what he says.

Kong Soo Do, in the other thread, says he has often identified his teachers.  I think I do remember him talking about his Kong Soo Do instructors, but not his Hapkido teachers.  Kong Soo Do, if I am wrong, my apologies.  You have posted a fair amount, and within any thread, you often post a lot of information.  I may have missed it or forgotten it if I wasn't familiar with the name.  My not being familiar with the name would not invalidate what your teacher taught nor invalidate any ranking he awarded you.  I expect you do not know my teacher's name unless you noted it when I posted about his passing.  One last thing.  In the other thread you say you think some who comment on your qualifications are trolls.  I hope you don;t include me in that.  I assure you I am not,.  And I hope I have not come across that way to you or anyone else.

With all that said, for me, the matter of Kong Soo Do's qualifications are a closed matter absent some strong proof he is not what he claims to be.

Just my two cents.


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## Archtkd (May 6, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> By stating it for what it is, and is not.  Some get offended if you think people should actually need to be present at a testing.  Or they get offended if you think that a master's test should consist of something more than 1 minute of sparring and two forms.  Or if you see it as questionable skipping multiple ranks as long as the highest three are paid for in advance.  That isn't a swipe, that is an opinion based upon the information in the special testing flier.



How many times can we flog this dead, resurrected,  killed again (several times) beast? 

I doubt that there are many Kukkiwon taekwondoin here who applaud USAT-MAC for pushing the Kukkiwon to host the Special dan testing  (http://assets.teamusa.org/assets/documents/attached_file/filename/6615/KukkiwonTest-cf_1_13_09.pdf ) in 2009. I might even go a step further by asking you to identify any regular poster in this boards, who took part in that special test and continues to wave and tout their credentials obtained at the the same, in the fashion that you so vehemently condemn the event. 

What was interesting about that testing -- which was opposed by very many Kukkiwon style taekwondoin around the world -- is the large number of people who failed, despite the actual, implied or alleged simplicity of the testing. Of course, we will never hear this from the founders of your system, which was founded in 2009, largely because its founders where and continue to be disgusted with the event. I think there are better ways to promote a fledgling organization dedicated to police and prison guard methods of street combat.


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## d1jinx (May 6, 2012)

oftheherd1 said:


> I don't know why Kong Soo Do is disinclined to give his  teacher(s) name(s).  As long as it isn't false pride, I guess it isn't  my business; well really, even if it is false pride.  That is something  he will have to deal with and live with.  If it is for some other  reason, I will leave that with him to explain when he feels like it ...  or not.  I will continue to evaluate  what he says on its merits as I do with all posters here.  So far I have  no problems and actually agree with most of what he says.
> 
> Kong Soo Do, in the other thread, says he has often identified his teachers.  I think I do remember him talking about his Kong Soo Do instructors, but not his Hapkido teachers.  Kong Soo Do, if I am wrong, my apologies.  You have posted a fair amount, and within any thread, you often post a lot of information.  I may have missed it or forgotten it if I wasn't familiar with the name.  My not being familiar with the name would not invalidate what your teacher taught nor invalidate any ranking he awarded you.  I expect you do not know my teacher's name unless you noted it when I posted about his passing.  One last thing.  In the other thread you say you think some who comment on your qualifications are trolls.  I hope you don;t include me in that.  I assure you I am not,.  And I hope I have not come across that way to you or anyone else.
> 
> ...



you know the ironic thing, the OP (no names) pokes fun at GM Won for promoting such a seminar, yet per his words in the past, his taekwondo and hapkido "teacher", mike dunn, is allegedly a student of that teacher, GM Won, and supposedly got his hapkido rank from GM Won, through a program such as that.  

wouldnt that make one a hypocrit?

funny thing is, its all there if you filter through the endless threads.  But, alas, I dont care.


Some people throw smoke bombs, run, then return when the smoke has cleared.  Seems we are in the smoke right now.


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## d1jinx (May 6, 2012)

Archtkd said:


> How many times can we flog this dead, resurrected,  killed again (several times) beast?
> 
> I doubt that there are many Kukkiwon taekwondoin here who applaud USAT-MAC for pushing the Kukkiwon to host the Special dan testing  (http://assets.teamusa.org/assets/documents/attached_file/filename/6615/KukkiwonTest-cf_1_13_09.pdf ) in 2009. I might even go a step further by asking you to identify any regular poster in this boards, who took part in that special test and continues to wave and tout their credentials obtained at the the same, in the fashion that you so vehemently condemn the event.
> 
> What was interesting about that testing -- which was opposed by very many Kukkiwon style taekwondoin around the world -- is the large number of people who failed, despite the actual, implied or alleged simplicity of the testing. Of course, we will never hear this from the founders of your system, which was founded in 2009, largely because its founders where and continue to be disgusted with the event. I think there are better ways to promote a fledgling organization dedicated to police and prison guard methods of street combat.



But my question is, why continue to post in the TKD section????  I mean after all its for Taekwondo-ist and not self started  self promoted organizations who claim to be related yet better than the original.


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## Haakon (May 6, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> But we're not talking technique. Where talking about the validity of testing for a HKD BB after a weekend with the requirement of having a TKD BB. I don't have to have a HKD BB to be able to offer an opinion. Hell, I could have gotten my masters cert out of a bubble gum machine and still be able to offer an opinion as to the level of validity...
> 
> Anyway, I'm done with this diversion. Back to the topic please.



I earned 1st dan in TKD many years ago, and 1st dan in HKD about 2 years ago in my opinion someone could _test_ for a HKD black belt after a weekend seminar, but they'd be a fool and I don't believe anyone would actually be qualified to _pass_ the test with that little bit of training, not by a long shot. It would take longer than that for most people to even learn how to fall, much less learn an entire colored belt HKD curriculum. They both have similar blocks and kicks, but they're not applied the same way, after years of HKD I'm still trying to break, or change, TKD habits. Even something simple as a block are done differently, at least the way I was taught. In TKD a block is generally hard, snappy, rigid, "every block is also a strike", in HKD a block is used more to deflect and absorb a strike ready to follow it up with whatever fits, a strike, throw, lock. That's just one surface difference, I don't think after a mere weekend a TKD black belt is going to learn enough to be qualified for a 1st dan in HKD, not by a long shot.

Daniels idea of some kind of ho sin sool certification after a weekend I could go along with, with higher levels of certification for TKD trained people who have gone to multiple seminars, but not a dan ranking.


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## Kong Soo Do (May 6, 2012)

d1jinx said:


> you know the ironic thing, the OP (no names) pokes fun at GM Won for promoting such a seminar, yet per his words in the past, his taekwondo and hapkido "teacher", mike dunn, is allegedly a student of that teacher, GM Won, and supposedly got his hapkido rank from GM Won, through a program such as that.



Actually this is incorrect information, again.  GM Dunn was under GM Won in TKD a couple of decades ago, basically running the school.  To my knowledge, GM Won doesn't know or teach HKD, and GM Dunn received no HKD rank while at this school.  That training and rank came later and was in no way associated with HMK TKD.  How about a constructive post that's on topic, rather than false information.


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## Kong Soo Do (May 6, 2012)

BTW, this is an example of why I don't like to name instructors on a BBS.  If certain people don't like your position on a certain topic they'll post made up crap about you or them in some juvenille attempt to make you look bad.  I don't think its cool to drag them into stuff like this because some guy on a BBS doesn't like what I said in another thread.


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## ralphmcpherson (May 6, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> BTW, this is an example of why I don't like to name instructors on a BBS.  If certain people don't like your position on a certain topic they'll post made up crap about you or them in some juvenille attempt to make you look bad.  I don't think its cool to drag them into stuff like this because some guy on a BBS doesn't like what I said in another thread.


which is precisely why I never mention where I train. I have seen far too may reputable orgs, instructors, GMs etc get roasted on boards such as these just because their opinions differ to someone elses.


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## Daniel Sullivan (May 6, 2012)

Jaeimseu said:


> You seem to be taking a contradictory stance here, or am I reading you wrong? On the one hand, you are questioning the legitimacy of a/an group/instructor without seeing first hand what they are physically capable of, but telling anyone who asks you a question that they must see you first hand to pass any judgement.
> 
> I didn't think Daniel Sullivan (or whoever it was) was trying to "call you out" by asking about your Hapkido background. You seem to be questioning the legitimacy of an organization's testing/rank policy, so it seems to me a natural question to ask about your Hapkido background to understand where you are coming from, but by appearing to be evasive in response to the question, you invite further questions. I know you previously experienced some threads in which people questioned your background (and I am not questioning your background), so that may be playing into the defensive tone of your posts here.


You are correct.  I wasn't calling him out at all, and I made that very clear. 

 Readers of his responses may draw their own conclusions from them.


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## Archtkd (May 6, 2012)

One of the key people at the organization hosting the quickie Hapkido black belt seminar --  http://www.komudokwan.com/hanmookwan.html -- is described as having a pending "International Referee classificatio," but he is certified as "Supreme Referee, which is the highest level," under his teacher, who "is one of the few in the U.S. who holds the 1st Class WTF International  Referee Classification."

I usually advise anybody willing to listen to run as far away as possible from folks who use titles like "pending" something,  or "Supreme Referee." What's unfortunate is that we point at the people who hold such titles and use them as the prime example of what's wrong with taekwondo. We hear horror stories from folks who've been burned by such teachers and assume and believe the whole system is rotten.


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## miguksaram (May 7, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Daniel, with all due respect.....


Without  having to quote your whole thread, this entire section is typical reply  from you.  You tend to get offensive when you are pressed about your  martial art credentials.  As Daniel has been very respectful in the way  he has addressed you and even in asking about your background.  He is  correct though, if you are going to put things on the board like this,  question the legitimacy, then you should be prepared to share a bit  about your experience, including how many years you have studied the art  in question, who you studied under, your rank, and sometime why you  left, if you did.


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## Kong Soo Do (May 7, 2012)

miguksaram said:


> Without  having to quote your whole thread, this entire section is typical reply  from you.  You tend to get offensive when you are pressed about your  martial art credentials.  As Daniel has been very respectful in the way  he has addressed you and even in asking about your background.  He is  correct though, if you are going to put things on the board like this,  question the legitimacy, then you should be prepared to share a bit  about your experience, including how many years you have studied the art  in question, who you studied under, your rank, and sometime why you  left, if you did.



Thank you Jeremy, and actually I have shared the details of my HKD training with people on this board.  I've just chosen to do so via PM and not on the open board.  As I've mentioned, some people, when they don't like what you post will take any information you've offered and try to dig up some sort of dirt for a 'gotcha post'.  And when they can't find any...they make it up.  Your guilty of this Jeremy.  Then you've got to defend yourself or your instructor against something that was made up or a half-truth.  And that goes on for a page or two then the thread gets closed.  No thanks.  So for serious members I'm an open book and ask me in PM.  For people like you...well, let's see...I have no HKD experience...I got my master cert in a bubble gum machine along with a super-secret decoder ring... and you are free to totally disregard all of my posts.


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## Daniel Sullivan (May 7, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Thank you Jeremy, and actually I have shared the details of my HKD training with people on this board.  I've just chosen to do so via PM and not on the open board.  As I've mentioned, some people, when they don't like what you post will take any information you've offered and try to dig up some sort of dirt for a 'gotcha post'.  And when they can't find any...they make it up.  Your guilty of this Jeremy.  Then you've got to defend yourself or your instructor against something that was made up or a half-truth.  And that goes on for a page or two then the thread gets closed.  No thanks.  So for serious members I'm an open book and ask me in PM.  For people like you...well, let's see...I have no HKD experience...I got my master cert in a bubble gum machine along with a super-secret decoder ring... and you are free to totally disregard all of my posts.



You might want to kick it down a notch (or seven), given that this little gem right here on MT. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?98993-Who-is-David-Schultz&highlight=david+shultz


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## Kong Soo Do (May 7, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> You might want to kick it down a notch (or seven), given that this little gem right here on MT. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?98993-Who-is-David-Schultz&highlight=david+shultz



Why should that link bother me?  Hey everyone, click on the link above in Daniels post.  It's about me.  Read it through completely though, not everything is accurate and I touched on that in one of my posts in the thread which I can back up as factual.  If anyone has any questions about the thread or me then shoot me a PM.


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## miguksaram (May 7, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> ....And when they can't find any...they make it up.  Your guilty of this Jeremy.


I have cited information from other sources, but I do not recall making anything up about you.  Can you please point this out?



> So for serious members I'm an open book and ask me in PM.  For people like you...well, let's see...I have no HKD experience...I got my master cert in a bubble gum machine along with a super-secret decoder ring... and you are free to totally disregard all of my posts.


This is what I am talking about.  You are using this type of tactic to overshadow the question about your experience by playing some sort of victim here.  

I have never said you did not have any HKD experience.  If I did, can you please quote where I said this so I can refresh my memory and make any needed apologies, after verification of your experience of course.  

I have never said you got your certificate from a bubble gum machine. Again, please point out the the place and quote where I have said this.  I  have called into question about your experience, based on a finding from another board, which we have discussed and since, at least I thought, put to rest.  So please do not put words into my mouth or in this case do not put words in my posts.  

You are not a victim here, you are the perp.  You have thrown up a thread to judge the legitimacy of how another school/organization runs their ranking process in the art of Hapkido.  It was done in a manner which was very judgmental, though I guess you do not see it that way.  You refuse to contact the school directly and ask them for more information.  Because you think everything is cut and dry on the flyer.  A flyer that was posted on the school site in their events section, not posted on their front page, for their classes.  You said yourself that it has been decades since GM Dunn was there.  How can you even begin to know what has happened in GM Won's school since GM Dunn's departure, unless of course GM Dunn keeps communication up with GM Won and keeps you in the loop.  The bottom line is you do not know, what you do not know.


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## Daniel Sullivan (May 7, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Why should that link bother me?  Hey everyone, click on the link above in Daniels post.  It's about me.  Read it through completely though, not everything is accurate and I touched on that in one of my posts in the thread which I can back up as factual.  If anyone has any questions about the thread or me then shoot me a PM.


You mean like the PM you sent to GM Ji when you started that thread about him?  Or the PM you sent to the organizers of this even you posted a thread about?


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## Kong Soo Do (May 7, 2012)

As a note, my associate emailed GM Won.  I have my associates permission to quote his portion of the email;


> Dear sir,
> 
> I'm inquiring about your upcoming  Hapkido seminar in June.  Would this be open for anyone in TKD or is it  only members of the Han Mu Kwan?  Additonally, is any prior experience  necessary in Hapkido for attendence?  Would you be permitted to test if  you can demonstrate proficency from the seminar material?  If so, how  much is the testing after the seminar.



I will not post GM Won's response verbatim as I don't know the legalities of posting someone's portion of an email without seeking their permission.  I don't see an issue with posting a paraphrased commentary of the response.  The seminar is open to all ages and belt colors.  A test following the seminar can be arranged upon request.  The only requirement to test is a BB in TKD.  The fee is $200, I'm assuming in addition to the cost of the seminar itself.  My thanks to my associate for asking and GM Won for providing a response.


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## miguksaram (May 7, 2012)

Here is what was asked and replied to in regards to this seminar:



			
				me said:
			
		

> Won Kwanjangnim,
> 
> Please allow me to introduce myself.  My name is  Jeremy Talbott.  I am a member of a martial arts discussion board  called Martial Talk.  I am sorry to disturb you but a member posted a  link to your hapkido seminar on the board.  The reason why I am posting this is  to get correct information on the seminar.
> 
> ...



GM Won's reply to the questions:


			
				GM Won said:
			
		

> Thank you, for the information. The seminar is open to all ages and all  belt colors, they do not have to be a member of our school. We do have a limited amount people that can apply, the limit  is 40. For testing purposes, they must attend the seminar and prior  experience would be preferred.


I sent the email today and received that reply within a couple of hours.  I have invited him to come on to the board to help answer and clarify any additional questions people may have.  Though I do not know if he will or not, he did ask for the direct link.


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## Kong Soo Do (May 7, 2012)

> For testing purposes, they must attend the seminar and prior  experience would be preferred.



Then I propose that we have our answer looking at both replies;  To test for a HKD BB, one must be a TKD BB and attend the seminar.  Since experience is 'preferred' by default it is not necessary.  Since it is not necessary, the only things that could reasonably be tested on is what is demonstrated in the weekend seminar.  So, if one is a TKD BB and attends the seminar and can demonstrate proficiency in whatever material is presented during the two days then they can earn a HKD BB.  And again, according to the flier, the rank they earn will be a combination of their current TKD BB rank and their demonstrated proficiency.  I can only take this to mean that the earned rank may be higher than the first Dan.


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## d1jinx (May 7, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Actually this is incorrect information, again.  GM Dunn was under GM Won in TKD a couple of decades ago, basically running the school.  To my knowledge, GM Won doesn't know or teach HKD, and GM Dunn received no HKD rank while at this school.  That training and rank came later and was in no way associated with HMK TKD.  How about a constructive post that's on topic, rather than false information.



I know you rounded up the posse and eagerly manned the keyboard awaiting my response, but i had grass to cut, a grille to fire up and some YUENGLING to drink.  After all, I wont drink and post.  could be reckless..

anyhow, I was mearly quoting the information I found while doing a simple search on YOUR posts and website.http://iksda.8m.com/rich_text_5.html  If i was incorrect, then you may want to re-edit some of that or have it removed.  Funny thing about the internet, it seems to have a lot of information.  Funny thing is, it all seems to line up now and again.  I mean, at some point there must be some truth to it, because I dont know you and have nothing against you but everything keep coming back to it.


And 1 more thing I found strange.  Why would someone who had ever been mentioned or accused as a fraud and doing similiar things like attending seminars for rank and buying rank and making rank  bring up the subject and throw rocks at someone else especially when you have a connection to them?  A stranger maybe, but someone who ties to you and your "alleged" fraudulent rank??? Like it or not, you tied yourself to GM Dunn, who is tied to GM Won, even if it was 10-so years ago. 

its screming "POT, you're Black" said the Kettle.  Leave it alone and people like myself would not have viewed you as a hypocrit.

I think its like you said, the authors have thier own veiws and agendas and so much info is out there trying to correct the info already out there, that one must filter through it to find the truth.  (of course i paraphased) well, reading your comments, I tend to believe more and more....


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## Kong Soo Do (May 7, 2012)

d1jinx said:


> anyhow, I was mearly quoting the information I found while doing a simple search on YOUR posts and website.http://iksda.8m.com/rich_text_5.html  If i was incorrect, then you may want to re-edit some of that or have it removed.



Have what removed?  You stated that GM Dunn received rank from GM Won in HKD after a weekend seminar such as is being discussed in this thread.  Where is that posted on our website linked above?  Or anywhere in any of my posts?  The link above doesn't even talk about HKD.  So post your documentation that what you stated on this open board is factual...or admit that you lied.  You can't have it both ways.  



> 1 more thing I found strange.  Why would someone who had ever been  mentioned or accused as a fraud and doing similiar things like attending  seminars for rank and buying rank and making rank  bring up the subject  and throw rocks at someone else especially when you have a connection  to them?



Same thing as above.  I don't recall anyone saying I attended a seminar for rank, or that I bought rank or that I've made up rank.  I've attended lots of seminars, none of them had rank associated with it.  I've never, ever paid for rank.  I've never paid for a BB test.  My instructors, like myself do NOT charge for a BB test.  And my rank is not made up.  I'm ranked by a real person, 1st through 7th.  So either provide your documentation to support your accusations, posted on this open board...or admit you lied.  Show which seminar I got rank at.  Show who I've bought rank from.  Show where my rank is 'made up'....or admit you lied.


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## jks9199 (May 7, 2012)

Congratulations.  Another closed thread in the Korean Arts. 

While the staff reviews this one, too, I strongly encourage a review of the Rules.  Really.  READ THEM.  HEED THEM.  

Staff patience is wearing very thin.

jks9199
Assistant Adminstrator


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