# Yang style comparison



## Xue Sheng (Feb 5, 2007)

I am a bit hesitant to post this, but here goes...Once more into the breach I go

I came across this and I will not comment beyond my Yang style looks almost exactly like that of Tung Hu Ling, not surprising he and my Sifu  were good friends and both learned from Tung Ying Chieh. He is the guy on the right in the older pictures. All I said when I saw it was WHOA!!!

I am more interested in the pictures here not the comments posted after them

Long Form Comparison
http://taijistagmont.wordpress.com/2006/11/20/yang-juns-103-family-yang-form-ii/


----------



## Steel Tiger (Feb 5, 2007)

While I am not a practitioner of taiji I have to say that Tung Hu ling's form looks stronger and more poised. The comparison is very interesting. Tung looks like he is going to explode with the pent up energy while the others, Yang in particular, look like they're going through the motions, which probably isn't true. Just looks that way, they are stills after all.


----------



## East Winds (Feb 6, 2007)

Xue Sheng,

Interesting post. However I'm not sure we can really make any comparison, as I think not all three are at the same place in each of the postures. For instance in the first series, Yang Jun is not yet "sitting" whilst the other two are. In the 2nd series only Yang Jun and Dong Hulin have completed the posture whilst Fu Shengyuan is still in transition. Series 3 Yang Jun is already into transition to White Crane whilst the other two are still in Step up to Raise Hands. Series 4 Yang Jun and Fu Shengyuan are in White Crane, whilst I suggest Dong Hulin is already transitioning to Brush and Push. What would really clinch it of course is the same series, but in video so that we can see the actual end frames.

Anyway, keep the posts coming ; they are always interesting.

Very best wishes


----------



## Xue Sheng (Feb 6, 2007)

Both in Press and White crane they appear to be, at least to me, in the same posture and I am also basing this on the fact I know what it looks like to get from point A to point B in my Yang style and I have watched several videos of the Yang family (which admittedly is different than training it with them) and it is with this comparison that the difference became very clear to me 

I see things that are simply different more between Yang Jun and Tung Hu Ling. Although last night I did go down to my basement and did all of the postures and tried to get from point A to point B to point C using them. Not having much exposure to any thing from Fu Shengyuan I really cannot compare there.


----------



## East Winds (Feb 6, 2007)

Xue Sheng,

Thanks for the reply. I'm not exactly sure that I understand your meaning, however, there is undoubtedly a difference between the Tung postures and the Yang postures. It is characterised by the slight bending at the waist. This bending is present (to a lesser extent) in Yang Shou Zhong's form and completely absent in Fu Zhong Wen's and the current Yang families form. Fu Zhong Wen states that in all the transitions the body must be upright. The interesting thing to consider is where this "dipping at the waist" came from. Yang Zhen Ji says of Fu Zhong Wen's form "each movement, each posture is depicted according to the way my father taught the form in the past with no alterations to the fixed postures". You will remember of course that Yang Zhen Ji studied with his father for at least 6 years so would know what his fathers form looked like. (And again of course Yang Shou Zhong as the eldest son worked for the longest with his father, so also would have known his fathers form).
To suggest (as others have done) that there is no power or martial content in the current Yang postures is to misunderstand the principles of the Yang form as it is transmitted today. As I say, I think (in the photographs) they are all in different stages of the frame. In the 1st series you can clearly see that Yang Jun's hands are crossed at the wrist and he is therefore in transition to Press (Ji) whilst the other two are clearly in Push (An). And as you know, the application (and therefore the Jin) of both these requires a quite different body structure. Am I correct is assuming that Tung also studied with Yang Shou Zhong for a while? And it is possible that the waist bending came from there? Now having said all that, I do not consider Yang Jun's form to the epitomy of good Traditonal Yang Family Taijiquan. My own opinion (and who am I to criticise!!!!!!!) is that he is slightly stiff and mechanical in his executions.

Very best wishes


----------



## Xue Sheng (Feb 6, 2007)

East Winds said:


> Xue Sheng,
> 
> Thanks for the reply. I'm not exactly sure that I understand your meaning, however, there is undoubtedly a difference between the Tung postures and the Yang postures. It is characterised by the slight bending at the waist. This bending is present (to a lesser extent) in Yang Shou Zhong's form and completely absent in Fu Zhong Wen's and the current Yang families form. Fu Zhong Wen states that in all the transitions the body must be upright. The interesting thing to consider is where this "dipping at the waist" came from. Yang Zhen Ji says of Fu Zhong Wen's form "each movement, each posture is depicted according to the way my father taught the form in the past with no alterations to the fixed postures". You will remember of course that Yang Zhen Ji studied with his father for at least 6 years so would know what his fathers form looked like. (And again of course Yang Shou Zhong as the eldest son worked for the longest with his father, so also would have known his fathers form).
> To suggest (as others have done) that there is no power or martial content in the current Yang postures is to misunderstand the principles of the Yang form as it is transmitted today. As I say, I think (in the photographs) they are all in different stages of the frame. In the 1st series you can clearly see that Yang Jun's hands are crossed at the wrist and he is therefore in transition to Press (Ji) whilst the other two are clearly in Push (An). And as you know, the application (and therefore the Jin) of both these requires a quite different body structure. Am I correct is assuming that Tung also studied with Yang Shou Zhong for a while? And it is possible that the waist bending came from there? Now having said all that, I do not consider Yang Jun's form to the epitomy of good Traditonal Yang Family Taijiquan. My own opinion (and who am I to criticise!!!!!!!) is that he is slightly stiff and mechanical in his executions.
> ...


 
I am trying to withhold comment on any one for the postures because I am desperately trying to be diplomatic, something that does not come easy to me by the way, but I agree with your assessment on Yang Jun. 

Tung Hu Ling learned from Tung Ying Chieh. Tung Hu Ling is Tung Ying Chiehs oldest son and was the lineage inheritor. And of course Tung Ying Cheih studied with Chengfu for many years. I would not doubt Hu Ling knew Yang Zhenming since he a Tung were classmates and thier schools were very close. Also my Sifu was a classmate of Hu Ling and my Sifu knew Yang Zhenming.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Feb 7, 2007)

Tung Hu Ling Slow Set 1960 Thailand.WMV





Yang Taiji, Master Yang Jun, 1 - 3, 103 form


----------



## marlon (Feb 7, 2007)

which student studied the longest with Yang Chengfu?  Do different students from different times do the form differently?  Who did Yang Jun learn from?
is taiji the form or is taiji taught through the form? so the true marker would be does the form teach the practitioner taiji or not...everything would be superfluous and a matter of style and taste

marlon


----------



## Xue Sheng (Feb 7, 2007)

marlon said:


> which student studied the longest with Yang Chengfu? Do different students from different times do the form differently? Who did Yang Jun learn from?
> is taiji the form or is taiji taught through the form? so the true marker would be does the form teach the practitioner taiji or not...everything would be superfluous and a matter of style and taste
> 
> marlon


 
None of them studied with Yang Chengfu

Tung Hu Ling (Tung Fu Ling) studied with his father Tung Ying Chieh. Tung Ying Chieh studied with Yang Chengfu

Fu Shengyuan studied with his father who was a student of Yang Chengfu

Yang Jun studied with his Grandfather Yang Zhenduo who studied mainly with his older brother Yang Shou Zhong who studied with their father Yang Chengfu

Zhenduo born in 1926 started training tai chi in 1932 Chengfu died in 1936 so Zhenduo studied with his father for only 4 years

As what is taiji same as Tai Chi in this case it is a style of Chinese martial arts much like shaolin, White crane or bagua. There are jsut differnt styles of Taiji (Tai Chi) Chen, Zhaobao, Yang, Wu, Hao, Sun. etc.

Generally speaking leaning Taiji you learn various forms both empty handed and weapons forms as well as push hands and some 2 person forms and some associated qigong . 

But taiji can also be this
http://www.answers.com/taiji


----------



## grappling_mandala (Feb 10, 2007)

"states that in all the transitions the body must be upright."

This is the way I've learned as well. This is one of the more difficult tasks of performing the yang 103/108 correctly it seems. No leaning, only learning.

It stands to reason through observation of how internal martial arts are commonly taught, if any motion is "frozen" or approached from stillness ie wu ji; obviously a lean can not be maintained. You don't lean in wu ji, pile standing, holding the child, trinity posture, san ti, or any of the other exercises which amplify underlying postural patterns. How can the elongated spine properly pivot on an axis if leaning? Interesting topic. 

GM


----------



## fyn5000 (Feb 19, 2007)

One difference you might see in Tung Hu Ling's form is that his teacher, Tung Ying Chieh, first studied Hao style Taiji.  After studying the Hao style for some years he sought out Yang Cheng Fu to expand his knowledge of Taiji.  I've been told by my Dong style teachers that some of the differences in the Dong Family Slow Set and the Yang Family Long Form comes from Tung Ying Chieh incorporating a little bit of the Hao style into his practice. 

fyn


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jun 24, 2010)

fyn5000 said:


> One difference you might see in Tung Hu Ling's form is that his teacher, Tung Ying Chieh, first studied Hao style Taiji. After studying the Hao style for some years he sought out Yang Cheng Fu to expand his knowledge of Taiji. I've been told by my Dong style teachers that some of the differences in the Dong Family Slow Set and the Yang Family Long Form comes from Tung Ying Chieh incorporating a little bit of the Hao style into his practice.
> 
> fyn


 
Old thread brought back from the dead.

I just reread this and I wanted to answer, sorry it took so long

Tung Ying Chieh's long form was very much like his teachers (Yang Chengfu) however his second fast form incorporated a lot of Hao style (and Qinna :EG. His first fast form was based entirely on Yang Style. However some of his applications may or may not have been different because he was a big fan of Qinna. Also you have to take into account that no two people have the same exact body so no two people will do the form exactly the same way. Tung Sigungs Jian and Dao were also Yang style but there is some Hao style Qigong that comes from him that you will not get in Yang style. However there are some difference I see between the Yang Jian and Dao of Yang Jun and the Yang Jian and Dao of Tung Ying Chieh, however I do not know who changed them. And from what I can gather from the people I have talked to that are students of the Yang family the Tuishou is pretty much the same except this 1 step tuishou thing I have been taught that I am not exactly sure where it came from, Hao, Yang or the Mind of Tung Sigung. 

As to Tung Hu Ling's form: He did change the long form a bit from what he learned from his father, however not that much. The big changes start with Dong Zeng Chen. As far as I know Dong Zeng Chen's older brother, Tung Kai Ying, did not change the form as much as Dong Zeng Chen did.

Tung Hu Ling also made up a Dao form as well that is faster and longer than the Yang Dao form. I have been told that that form is also taught by Tung Kai Ying as a double Dao form, but I have never seen it and that was told to me by a student of Tung Kai Ying that was kicked out of his school.


----------



## fyn5000 (Jun 24, 2010)

The way forms change can be interesting.  Forms do change over time as people tend to put their own stamp on them, Dong Zeng Chen as you mentioned.  But the same form can be performed differently by people depending on the time they learned the form from the same teacher.  If I remember correctly, Wu Ta Yeh had an article in T'ai Chi magazine (around the early 1980's I believe) about Yang Chengfu's postures in the Yang long form changing over time.  

In that article, Wu mentioned that two of Yang's students, Chen Weiming and Dong Ying Jie, both learned the long form (along with other forms of course) from him, but they taught the same long form differently.  Since Chen Weiming learned from Yang in Yang's early years, he taught according to the way Yang taught the form then.  Dong Ying Jie learned from Yang throughout Yang's early and later years so he taught the long form the way Yang taught it in Yang's later years.  It is the same form, the postures are just done differently.  It's a very good article.

And you're right about the second Dao form that Dong Hu Ling created.  I've only seen it on video.  It is definitely different from the Dao form I learning right now.

The Hao QiGong you mentioned, I wonder if that's the qigong that Master Alex Dong calls the Hard Qigong?  I was told it's based on the Hao Style.  I've found it to be a very challenging because a person is supposed to be loose and relaxed while holding the postures, but still maintain energy in the palms of the hands.  

Fyn


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jun 25, 2010)

fyn5000 said:


> The way forms change can be interesting. Forms do change over time as people tend to put their own stamp on them, Dong Zeng Chen as you mentioned. But the same form can be performed differently by people depending on the time they learned the form from the same teacher. If I remember correctly, Wu Ta Yeh had an article in T'ai Chi magazine (around the early 1980's I believe) about Yang Chengfu's postures in the Yang long form changing over time.
> 
> In that article, Wu mentioned that two of Yang's students, Chen Weiming and Dong Ying Jie, both learned the long form (along with other forms of course) from him, but they taught the same long form differently. Since Chen Weiming learned from Yang in Yang's early years, he taught according to the way Yang taught the form then. Dong Ying Jie learned from Yang throughout Yang's early and later years so he taught the long form the way Yang taught it in Yang's later years. It is the same form, the postures are just done differently. It's a very good article.
> 
> ...


 
Take into account what Yang Chengfu's weight was in his early years and what it was like in his later years and you will see a big reason for the change. Also at some point Yang Chengfu change the family style drastically by taking out all of the obvious Fajin so what he first learned was very different than what he was teaching latter.

Also dont forget Fu Zhongwen, another student of Yang Chengfu, His Yang style was also very good and slightly different than The others as well. 

My sifu learned the Dao form of Tung Hu Ling while he was assisting Tung Hu Ling teaching in Thailand. I learned it but it is a single Dao not a double. I also forgot to mention the Yang Staff form. I have learned the basics, before I was sidelined by injury, but I have no idea if it is the same as what the Yang family teaches now or if they even teach it now.

As to what Alex teaches, I have no idea. My sifu is of the same Taiji generation as Alexs Grandfather Tung Hu Ling and like Tung Hu Ling, learned from Tung Ying Chieh. Alex, as far as I know learned from his father Dong Zeng Chen who learned from his father Tung Hu Ling, Alex is 2 generations after my sifu, and technically 1 generation after me by Taiji standards. Dong Zeng Chen's older brother Tung Kai Ying learned from both his Grandfather, Tung Ying Chieh and his father Tung Hu Ling. Also from what I have been told Tung Kai Ying is rather traditional, or at least he use to be.

The Qigong I have learned from my sifu is from Hao and from Yang and he does not call it hard or soft, Yang or Hao, he just calls it qigong. But then he does not call the long form by any number (108, 88, etc) he just calls it the long form like his sifu did. And he does not call it Tung/Dong Style either he calls it Yang style. But then that is what Tung Ying Chieh called it as Tung Hu Ling called it and I believe at least early on Tung Kai Ying called Yang style as well. Again it was Dong Zeng Chen that started calling the style Dong Style.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jun 25, 2010)

I should probably add these links since the original link is now dead. The original was comparing Yang Jun, Tung Hu Ling and Fu Shengyuan, Sadly it is no longer available, it was a very cool set of photos

Tung Ying Chieh

Tung Hu Ling

Comparative Postures


*Yang Cheng Fu and Dong Ying Jie* 

Comparative Postures

Yang Style Traditional Slow Set - First Section

Yang Style Traditional Slow Set - Second Section

Yang Style Traditional Slow Set - Third Section


----------

