# Article 8 Time/Age limits POOM/DAN



## Gorilla (Aug 31, 2010)

http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/english/examination/examination08.jsp?div=01#08


Thoughts on article 8?

Fast or Slow or Just Right!!!!

Its is my interpretation that a Martial Artist is eligible for promotion to 4th Dan @18 years of age as long as he received his 3rd Poom by the age of 15.  If not then the minimum age requirement for 4th Dan is 21 years of age!!!


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## dancingalone (Aug 31, 2010)

I'll repeat what I said last time we discussed child black belts.  No dan rank before the age of 16, period.

I am not too crazy about 4th dans in their twenties either, but I don't want to beat a dead horse.

If the black belt is about separating competitors into experience or skill levels, I would try to use another system, perhaps point-based off tournament or match victories, or even 1 based on years of participation.


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## terryl965 (Aug 31, 2010)

Well I will use my son as the escape goat here. He is 16 and he is a third poom/Dan, he was a third when he was 15 so he is eligible to be a 4th by the time he is 18. I do not have a problem with except one thing, he is not like every other person out their, he has been inside a dojaang since he was born and been kicking since the age of three. Let say he really did not start to understand alot of things until he was around 14 still he would already have 10 years of training plus another 4 till he reached the age of 18. so 14 years of training everyday three to five hours so his he a Master*  hell no *not by my standerds but by the KKW yes he is. This is the only grey area I allow in my school because by the guidelines of the org. I choose to be with say it is. The only thing I can say is one day he will be but at 18 though 30 no way, he needs to be worldly and I am not talking about tournaments but actually out in the workforce and becoming a man and then I will pass judgement on him. 

It is kinda like the Military you can go kill a man but please do not drink any alcohol until you are 21, so silly for words/


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## ATC (Aug 31, 2010)

Simple as this to me. Train. Train hard and gain knowledge. Don't looked to be called anything. If the org bestows the title of Master so be it. If someone calls you Master so be it. If no one calls you Master so be it. If you respect someone that is called Master then you will call them Master. If you do not respect someone that is labeled Master then you won't call them Master.

Either way it is a sign of respect and if you respect them for what they can do, then you will call them Master, if not then you won't. If you don't respect them you most likely wouldn't even associate with them to even call them anything one way or another.

Just my take on it.


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## Gorilla (Aug 31, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> I'll repeat what I said last time we discussed child black belts.  No dan rank before the age of 16, period.
> 
> I am not too crazy about 4th dans in their twenties either, but I don't want to beat a dead horse.
> 
> If the black belt is about separating competitors into experience or skill levels, I would try to use another system, perhaps point-based off tournament or match victories, or even 1 based on years of participation.



According to the Standard no Dan Rank until 15.  So you are close to the Kukkiwon Standard.

At our Old School the General Manager is a 28 Year Old 5th Degree.  He is a highly respected Martial Artist in Southern California and is quite capable.
He has been at that school since he was five.

I am just trying to gage how everyone feels about the Kukkiwon Standard not trying to be controversial. Maybe the standard in and of itself is controversial!  We will find out.

My question has nothing to do with competition.  I am wanting to discuss rank standards as they apply to the Kukkiwon.

I know that I have been controversial in the past (and I will be in the Future) but that is not my intent in this post.


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## dancingalone (Aug 31, 2010)

Gorilla said:


> I am just trying to gage how everyone feels about the Kukkiwon Standard not trying to be controversial. Maybe the standard in and of itself is controversial!  We will find out.



I think that many believe the Kukkiwon age is lenient, especially when you factor in the poom belt loophole where that means you can be a 4th dan in your early twenties.  

<shrugs>I don't like it, but there's certainly plenty of other people who have highly ranked young black belts as well.  This 'problem' is not unique to the KKW or to taekwondo.


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## Gorilla (Aug 31, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> I think that many believe the Kukkiwon age is lenient, especially when you factor in the poom belt loophole where that means you can be a 4th dan in your early twenties.
> 
> <shrugs>I don't like it, but there's certainly plenty of other people who have highly ranked young black belts as well.  This 'problem' is not unique to the KKW or to taekwondo.



18 actually!  Per the standard you could be an 18 Year Old 4th Dan as long as you achieved 3rd Poom by 15!


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## rlp271 (Aug 31, 2010)

I'll use myself as a strange situation a well.  My instructor has given out exactly one black belt to someone under 16, and that was to me.  He has promoted only two people to 4th dan, and I'm one.  I was also a strange case though, as I started competing against adults when I was 14, because I had grown about as tall as I was going to get (5'8"), and was just putting on muscle at that point haha.  I've also studied by butt off as far as theory, philosophy, and history are concerned.

Funny enough, I am on everyone else's side when it comes to rank.  I don't like living in Korea, and seeing 7-year-old black belts (first pooms) and 12-year-old 3rd pooms.  In a small school, you have the luxury to do things on a case by case basis, not so on an organizational level, so it seems that standards should be higher.  Since I grew up in the United States, I have an idea of what kind of work is put into a black belt, but after spending more than two years here, I have started to rework that idea.

Here's why, the average kid in Korea is just like one in the US.  They get their black belt, they're finished.  The instructors do it to make money, but unlike the US Korea has middle school and high school competitive teams.  Highly competitive, basically professional teams.  If you have a gifted youngster, he'll be a poom by the time he gets to middle school, which means he can compete for his middle school team.  If he does well, he'll get recruited to a high school program.  High school programs with a lot of prestige produce gifted Taekwondo practitioners, who are what the US would consider professional Taekwondo players.  They are supported by the school, some live on campus, and they rarely go to class.  They spend their days training.  I'd say, that a player like that, by age 18 has a better grasp on what they're doing with their martial art than a majority of other people doing Taekwondo.  I don't want to throw a percentage out there, because it has no meaning.  They've been training up to 7 or 8 hours a day for all 6 years of high school and middle school, when you add that to their training as a youth, you've got someone with 7 years of more than casual experience with Taekwondo and someone who has 6 years of Taekwondo training as a full time job.  They are likely qualified to be a 4th dan.  From there, they go one of two routes, they only go to get a business/physical education degree from a Taekwondo university like Yong-in, or they compete for the university while doing the degree.  They try to make national teams, compete in large competitions (if you get a gold medal in one of the bigger international competitions, it cancels your military service woohoo!) or the Olympics, and your competition career is over by the time you're 27 or 28.  From there, you open a school.  How do you determine where that person's rank is?  They train from 5-13 at a more than casual, say 4 days a week level, then 5-6 days a week for the next 14 years.  A 28 year old as a 5th dan or 6th dan seems ludicrous in the US, but when you've been a full-time professional for 14 years who trains 7-8 hours a day?


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## Gorilla (Aug 31, 2010)

rlp271 said:


> I'll use myself as a strange situation a well.  My instructor has given out exactly one black belt to someone under 16, and that was to me.  He has promoted only two people to 4th dan, and I'm one.  I was also a strange case though, as I started competing against adults when I was 14, because I had grown about as tall as I was going to get (5'8"), and was just putting on muscle at that point haha.  I've also studied by butt off as far as theory, philosophy, and history are concerned.
> 
> Funny enough, I am on everyone else's side when it comes to rank.  I don't like living in Korea, and seeing 7-year-old black belts (first pooms) and 12-year-old 3rd pooms.  In a small school, you have the luxury to do things on a case by case basis, not so on an organizational level, so it seems that standards should be higher.  Since I grew up in the United States, I have an idea of what kind of work is put into a black belt, but after spending more than two years here, I have started to rework that idea.
> 
> Here's why, the average kid in Korea is just like one in the US.  They get their black belt, they're finished.  The instructors do it to make money, but unlike the US Korea has middle school and high school competitive teams.  Highly competitive, basically professional teams.  If you have a gifted youngster, he'll be a poom by the time he gets to middle school, which means he can compete for his middle school team.  If he does well, he'll get recruited to a high school program.  High school programs with a lot of prestige produce gifted Taekwondo practitioners, who are what the US would consider professional Taekwondo players.  They are supported by the school, some live on campus, and they rarely go to class.  They spend their days training.  I'd say, that a player like that, by age 18 has a better grasp on what they're doing with their martial art than a majority of other people doing Taekwondo.  I don't want to throw a percentage out there, because it has no meaning.  They've been training up to 7 or 8 hours a day for all 6 years of high school and middle school, when you add that to their training as a youth, you've got someone with 7 years of more than casual experience with Taekwondo and someone who has 6 years of Taekwondo training as a full time job.  They are likely qualified to be a 4th dan.  From there, they go one of two routes, they only go to get a business/physical education degree from a Taekwondo university like Yong-in, or they compete for the university while doing the degree.  They try to make national teams, compete in large competitions (if you get a gold medal in one of the bigger international competitions, it cancels your military service woohoo!) or the Olympics, and your competition career is over by the time you're 27 or 28.  From there, you open a school.  How do you determine where that person's rank is?  They train from 5-13 at a more than casual, say 4 days a week level, then 5-6 days a week for the next 14 years.  A 28 year old as a 5th dan or 6th dan seems ludicrous in the US, but when you've been a full-time professional for 14 years who trains 7-8 hours a day?


Many of the National Level Juniors in the US are home schooled and have that type of training regimen. My Kids train 2-4 hours a day six days a week and have the discipline to keep their grades up.  The give up the education for TKD I will never Understand.  I know 2 people from Korea who came out of that system.  They gave up allot for TKD.  They both say don't sacrifice your Education for TKD


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## ralphmcpherson (Sep 1, 2010)

I tend to disagree with these standards but as terry said, there will always be exceptions. I train with a guy who will be 4th dan by about 22 and as far as Im concerned he is an exception. His knowledge of the art, his skill level, his level head, his ability to instruct etc are all as good or better than any 4th dan I know (irrespective of age). I will say though, he is an exception. Im curious though, as far as time per dan goes with the kukkiwon. We wait 2 years from 1st to 2nd dan, 3 years from 2nd to 3rd, 4 years from 3rd to 4th etc. Is this the same as the kukkiwon?


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## rlp271 (Sep 1, 2010)

Gorilla said:


> Many of the National Level Juniors in the US are home schooled and have that type of training regimen. My Kids train 2-4 hours a day six days a week and have the discipline to keep their grades up.  The give up the education for TKD I will never Understand.  I know 2 people from Korea who came out of that system.  They gave up allot for TKD.  They both say don't sacrifice your Education for TKD



I would never put my kid through it.  I don't think it's right, but I do think it sets a precedent for their age standards, which seem crazy to us.

It's all in context though.  Some of the kids that go through that training would clearly be better off in school, but others are orphans, or they're poor, and honestly when kids like that go through all that training, it sets them up with a lifelong profession in which they can make a good living.  They learn as university students how to run a successful TKD program.  They learn about business models, and how to make sure they can make a living.

Korean TKD has turned into kindergarten for the most part, but it's quite a lucrative kindergarten at $70-100/kid each month.  I'm not saying that it's right that they give up a bulk of their education, nor is it fair, but life isn't really fair, and who knows what their fate had been otherwise.


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## ralphmcpherson (Sep 1, 2010)

rlp271 said:


> I would never put my kid through it.  I don't think it's right, but I do think it sets a precedent for their age standards, which seem crazy to us.
> 
> It's all in context though.  Some of the kids that go through that training would clearly be better off in school, but others are orphans, or they're poor, and honestly when kids like that go through all that training, it sets them up with a lifelong profession in which they can make a good living.  They learn as university students how to run a successful TKD program.  They learn about business models, and how to make sure they can make a living.
> 
> Korean TKD has turned into kindergarten for the most part, but it's quite a lucrative kindergarten at $70-100/kid each month.  I'm not saying that it's right that they give up a bulk of their education, nor is it fair, but life isn't really fair, and who knows what their fate had been otherwise.


Is this something thats unique to Korea? For instance, has karate become a kindergarten in japan?


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## ATC (Sep 1, 2010)

rlp271 said:


> I would never put my kid through it.  I don't think it's right, but I do think it sets a precedent for their age standards, which seem crazy to us.
> 
> It's all in context though.  Some of the kids that go through that training would clearly be better off in school, but others are orphans, or they're poor, and honestly when kids like that go through all that training, it sets them up with a lifelong profession in which they can make a good living.  They learn as university students how to run a successful TKD program.  They learn about business models, and how to make sure they can make a living.
> 
> Korean TKD has turned into kindergarten for the most part, but it's quite a lucrative kindergarten at $70-100/kid each month.  I'm not saying that it's right that they give up a bulk of their education, nor is it fair, but life isn't really fair, and who knows what their fate had been otherwise.


Any good dojang here in the states will ensure that the kids do well in school first. Bad grade in school then no training or TKD classes. They will insist that the student bring his or her homework to class in need be and get it done before training or in between training times.

If your dojang is not doing this then you need to find an instructor or school owner that cares. We have no problem sitting a kid out if he or she is not performing at home or school.


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## rlp271 (Sep 1, 2010)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Is this something thats unique to Korea? For instance, has karate become a kindergarten in japan?



That's something I'm not qualified to comment on.  I have been told that budo in Japan isn't something that's very popular though.  It's not necessarily respected either.  The second I saw kids doing a TKD "dance" to a video, I knew exactly what TKD dojang in Korea were...

You can probably find good ones, but they may be even further and farther apart than the ones in the US.


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## rlp271 (Sep 1, 2010)

ATC said:


> Any good dojang here in the states will ensure that the kids do well in school first. Bad grade in school then no training or TKD classes. They will insist that the student bring his or her homework to class in need be and get it done before training or in between training times.
> 
> If your dojang is not doing this then you need to find an instructor or school owner that cares. We have no problem sitting a kid out if he or she is not performing at home or school.



The US and Korea are worlds apart when it comes to their ideas about education and athletics.  Often times the best athletes in the US are at least doing average in school.  Some excel.  Craig Krenzel led Ohio State to a football national championship and graduated with a high gpa and a degree in molecular genetics.

In Korea, if you're an excellent athlete, that's what you do.  It's a choice made by your parents.  If you're really the cream of the crop in any sport, you sacrifice school for whatever it is you're good at.  The school I used to work at had a national championship winning tennis team.  I saw those girls maybe 3 time a semester.  Maybe.  Kim Yuna (figure skating), Jang Miran (power lifting), and others, I'm sure have done the same thing.  I has nothing to do with caring.  The coaches here do care, but about different things.  They care about how well their athletes do in their sport.  That's their job.  In the US, that's not considered "right," but we can't really examine another culture using our own moral standards.  It's not fair to the culture, and it can cause a lot of misunderstandings about what exactly the intentions are behind the actions of the other.


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## Miles (Sep 5, 2010)

The KKW rule is the rule.  I've never been in a position to promote anyone that young to that level.

  Coincidentally my avatar photo is with my first 4th dan student.  He's got over 20 yrs of training and he's 54 yrs old.


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## ccultrara (Sep 5, 2010)

IF the students skill level and understanding is at the point it needs to be, then  why not advance them to the next Dan. I am applying for my 3rd Dan KKW now at 17 and will receive my school's 4th Dan by 18 but i will be waiting till 21 for my KKW rightfully so


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## irgordon (Sep 6, 2010)

I think they work and should be adhered to, no reason why everyone should be rushing to make this Dan or that Dan, just keep training and working, you already got a black belt, focus on working out and improving your techniques and material rather than worrying about the # of "stripes" on your belt.


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## Cirdan (Sep 6, 2010)

I am curious how many reach third and fourth dan with the KKW.
Any percentages available, of students in general or those who reach 1. Dan?

How are those ranks treated? I`ve always seen 3rd and above as an instructor`s instructor, full Sensei who understands the whole system if you will.


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## dancingalone (Sep 6, 2010)

This is the best article on standards and child black belts I've seen yet.  Worth the read.

http://bushido-kai.net/articles/TheYoungestBlackBelt.pdf


...

It is not just sour grapes; rather it is the emotional realization that the standards of some schools are annoying dissimilar from other schools.  The symbolic meaning of the black belt to the general public seeks the lowest common denominator, so a mature adult feels cheated when the 9-year-old puts on a black belt it took him 18 months to "earn".

...


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## d1jinx (Sep 7, 2010)

Ok.... so I'm late with thee chime in here.... but....

What I think people are missing is these are the "MINIMUM Requirements", not the ONLY requirement.  As a certified KKW master/instructor you are to promote using your judgement ensuring quality students.  Your standards should be set higher than the Minumum standards set by KKW.  KKW expects the person performing the promotion, In good faith, that students should only be promoted when ready. But as we know too many promote for money and retention.  and not for quality.  we all seen the pathetic BB's running around... it's not thier fault or KKW... its the instructor who promoted them.

Can you imagine if the KKW "spot checked" your students for quality, and penalized you if they didnt meet the standards.... that would be great.  Instructors should be held accountable.


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## Gorilla (Mar 5, 2013)

What am I misreading....it states clearly one you reach 18 you can turn your 4th Poom grade to Dan grade


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## ETinCYQX (Mar 5, 2013)

At minimum time in grade, I think I'll be 25 for my 4th Dan. I got my 2nd this past June and my 1st the June before that. Had just turned 20 when I got my 2nd and 19 when I got my 1st. I am hoping around June of next year for 3rd Dan. 

In my experience the 5th Dan in our school tends to be held off on. I hope to be teaching a lot and to have done some traveling to train before I grade to 5th Dan.


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## msmitht (Mar 5, 2013)

....


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## Twin Fist (Mar 6, 2013)

an 18 year old 4th dan is a joke

a sad, unfunny joke

sure there are exceptions, but they are jsut that:
exceptions

the thing is, everyone thinks that they (or thier kids) are the exceptions

they are by and large not

and the thing is, they dont need to advance at all, since we are talking about KKW kids, you dont need to ever advance past BB to compete.

so there is only one reason left to promote children to higher levels of BB

money


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## Tez3 (Mar 6, 2013)

I think it depends on what 'use' the black belt is for. In competitions it's, hopefully, a good way to put people in brackets obviously along with weight. Competitors are going to be on the younger side so 3rd, 4th Dans etc aren't going to be a problem, what will be a problem is these young Dan grades instructing, that's where the maturity and experience in dealing with people comes into play. 
The drinking and being a soldier shooting people doesn't come into play here or in many countries where you have to be 18 to be do both.


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## ETinCYQX (Mar 6, 2013)

Twin Fist said:


> an 18 year old 4th dan is a joke
> 
> a sad, unfunny joke
> 
> ...



This is one area I agree with you in regards to KKW. While I know some excellent 2nd-3rd poom junior athletes, there should be more to a high dan grade than competition. I would prefer that the poom ranks didn't transfer or maybe counted towards a shortened time in grade or something. I don't have a problem with poom ranks, we all know what they represent, but 4th Dan at 18 I can't wrap my head around.


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## Twin Fist (Mar 6, 2013)

unless i am mistaken Tez, after BB, there is no seperation based on rank, so 1st dan or 12th dan, no difference for tournaments....




Tez3 said:


> I think it depends on what 'use' the black belt is for. In competitions it's, hopefully, a good way to put people in brackets obviously along with weight. Competitors are going to be on the younger side so 3rd, 4th Dans etc aren't going to be a problem, what will be a problem is these young Dan grades instructing, that's where the maturity and experience in dealing with people comes into play.
> The drinking and being a soldier shooting people doesn't come into play here or in many countries where you have to be 18 to be do both.


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## Twin Fist (Mar 6, 2013)

ETinCYQX said:


> This is one area I agree with you in regards to KKW. While I know some excellent 2nd-3rd poom junior athletes, there should be more to a high dan grade than competition. I would prefer that the poom ranks didn't transfer or maybe counted towards a shortened time in grade or something. I don't have a problem with poom ranks, we all know what they represent, but 4th Dan at 18 I can't wrap my head around.




me either.

it makes the puppy inside my heart weep


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## ETinCYQX (Mar 6, 2013)

Cirdan said:


> I am curious how many reach third and fourth dan with the KKW.
> Any percentages available, of students in general or those who reach 1. Dan?
> 
> How are those ranks treated? I`ve always seen 3rd and above as an instructor`s instructor, full Sensei who understands the whole system if you will.



in my experience what you're talking about happens around 5th Dan KKW. Usually.


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## andyjeffries (Mar 6, 2013)

Cirdan said:


> I am curious how many reach third and fourth dan with the KKW.
> Any percentages available, of students in general or those who reach 1. Dan?


 
According to Kukkiwon stats, the following number of people reached the relevant dans:

1 POOM 114,303
2 POOM 16,919
3 POOM 2,091
4 POOM 238


1 DAN 76,640
2 DAN 23,791
3 DAN 9,987
4 DAN 3,987



Cirdan said:


> How are those ranks treated? I`ve always seen 3rd and above as an instructor`s instructor, full Sensei who understands the whole system if you will.



From my experience this has changed.  When I was younger it was always seen as 4th Dan is Master rank, with the privilege to promote students up to 3rd Dan Kukkiwon.  1st Dans and above could open their own school, teach their own students, but would need a 4th Dan to promote them.

In recent years, this seems to have changed to "4th Dan is kinda-Master, but more Junior Master" and our national governing body requires examiners to be 5th Dan and the national syllabus only considers 5th Dan to be Master (4th Dan is labelled "Instructor").

I don't believe the Kukkiwon considers there to be a big jump from 4th to 5th in this same way (e.g. new title, new privileges, course requirements, etc - there doesn't seem to be any privileges conferred to 5th Dans that aren't to 4th Dan, except rank they can promote to).

My experience is mainly UK-based, so this may be different in the USA or Canada.


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## chrispillertkd (Mar 6, 2013)

andyjeffries said:


> In recent years, this seems to have changed to "4th Dan is kinda-Master, but more Junior Master" and our national governing body requires examiners to be 5th Dan and the national syllabus only considers 5th Dan to be Master (4th Dan is labelled "Instructor").



Why does your national organzation, which is affiliated to the KKW and gets rank through the KKW, deviate from the KKW's guidelines on who can or cannot promote? I though that the KKW was the organization that set the standard for KKW Taekwondo. This just seems odd to me, especially considering the recent conversations about KKW ranking, age, etc.

Pax,

Chris


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## andyjeffries (Mar 6, 2013)

chrispillertkd said:


> Why does your national organzation, which is affiliated to the KKW and gets rank through the KKW, deviate from the KKW's guidelines on who can or cannot promote? I though that the KKW was the organization that set the standard for KKW Taekwondo. This just seems odd to me, especially considering the recent conversations about KKW ranking, age, etc.



Well, that's a good question.

They also issue their own dan certificates when you pass a promotion test which is "deviating" from the KKW guidelines.

I can't answer on their behalf and to express my opinions may be politically impolite.  I can say that I disagree with these policies and would prefer if Kukkiwon procedures were the only ones required to be followed for any grading.

I can also say that my mater instructor explained it to me as they were trying to increase standards so by requiring a higher grade to promote kup students and requiring all students to grade at the national dan tests rather than by individual instructors (as the KKW allows) they were better able to maintain higher standards.  They issue their own Dan certificates because they prefer to get them in people's hands rather than suffer the long wait for Kukkiwon certificates (I am aware of people are years late with getting their Kukkiwon certificates).

Personally I am aware of the speed of getting Kukkiwon certificates back directly from Korea, but I'm just passing on what he told me.


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## chrispillertkd (Mar 6, 2013)

andyjeffries said:


> I can also say that my mater instructor explained it to me as they were trying to increase standards so by requiring a higher grade to promote kup students and requiring all students to grade at the national dan tests rather than by individual instructors (as the KKW allows) they were better able to maintain higher standards.



 But the level of standards has nothing to do with the rank of the person who is testing the students. I've seen tests run by some pretty senior dan ranks that passed students who would've failed at the schools of lower ranked instructors, for instance. If people are interested in higher standards then they should actually set higher standards and expect them to be  followed, IMNSHO. I'm not saying you have to be an Olympic hopeful to get 1st dan, but remembering all of your patterns and performing them with snap and power would be a good start. That and the realization that some people are simply not going to qualify for some ranks because they will not develop the required ability. 

But to get back to the larger issue, if your national association is issuing KKW rank why do they have a problem with what is, presumably, KKW standards? If they need to improve standards then they are saying either 1) people haven't been meeting KKW standards (which are pretty minimal from what I have s een, albeit as an outsider), or 2) KKW standards are too low in the first place (which makes me wonder why they bother with KKW dan certification in the first place). 



> Personally I am aware of the speed of getting Kukkiwon certificates back directly from Korea, but I'm just passing on what he told me.



Heh, yeah. Do you have to pay extra for the national organization's certificate? If not then it seems like it's just a matter of needing to hire someone in the office to process the paperwork faster! (Frankly, I think the KKW system of having anyone of a certain rank be able to test and process rank is the best one. Centralization on a national level will always lead to people having to wait a long time for their certificates. I don't know why the KKW lets national organizations, in effect, by-pass their regulations and make things more cumbersome for people, but that's just me.) If you do have to pay for the added benefit of getting a dan certificate faster then it's probably just a matter of wanting more money (and hey, all organizations have overhead that needs to be met, but they should just be up front about it and not blame the KKW for being slow).

Pax,

Chris


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## andyjeffries (Mar 6, 2013)

chrispillertkd said:


> But the level of standards has nothing to do with the rank of the person who is testing the students.



No argument here.



chrispillertkd said:


> But to get back to the larger issue, if your national association is issuing KKW rank why do they have a problem with what is, presumably, KKW standards? If they need to improve standards then they are saying either 1) people haven't been meeting KKW standards (which are pretty minimal from what I have s een, albeit as an outsider), or 2) KKW standards are too low in the first place (which makes me wonder why they bother with KKW dan certification in the first place).



I would imagine the answer is "1" and their answer to "2" is that it's not KKW standards, but the standards of some KKW certified masters.  They bother with KKW certification because they are the WTF MNA.



chrispillertkd said:


> Heh, yeah. Do you have to pay extra for the national organization's certificate?



You pay a grading fee which includes the cost of your next Kukkiwon certificate you are due (if you are behind with KKW rank compared to your MNA rank) and includes the MNA's certificate for the grade you test for.



chrispillertkd said:


> If not then it seems like it's just a matter of needing to hire someone in the office to process the paperwork faster! (Frankly, I think the KKW system of having anyone of a certain rank be able to test and process rank is the best one. Centralization on a national level will always lead to people having to wait a long time for their certificates. I don't know why the KKW lets national organizations, in effect, by-pass their regulations and make things more cumbersome for people, but that's just me.) If you do have to pay for the added benefit of getting a dan certificate faster then it's probably just a matter of wanting more money (and hey, all organizations have overhead that needs to be met, but they should just be up front about it and not blame the KKW for being slow).



They have got someone doing it faster now, but I believe there will be the backlog of people being way behind on their KKW certs for many years to come.


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## Rumy73 (Mar 6, 2013)

ATC said:


> Simple as this to me. Train. Train hard and gain knowledge. Don't looked to be called anything. If the org bestows the title of Master so be it. If someone calls you Master so be it. If no one calls you Master so be it. If you respect someone that is called Master then you will call them Master. If you do not respect someone that is labeled Master then you won't call them Master.
> 
> Either way it is a sign of respect and if you respect them for what they can do, then you will call them Master, if not then you won't. If you don't respect them you most likely wouldn't even associate with them to even call them anything one way or another.
> 
> Just my take on it.



Atc, I respect the kkw system to the point of giving the proper public show of respect. Intellectually I disagree but leave it off the mat, so to speak.


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## Gorilla (Mar 7, 2013)

Allot of discussion around youth BB and Dan/Poom rank....I am currently traveling with the AAU/USA National Team there are several 3rd Dan/Poom and not one 4th...so the world is not crumbling down just yet!!


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## Master Dan (Mar 7, 2013)

Well in Oh Brother Who Art Thou when he takes the guys out to explain about the business of selling the gospel while they are eating he takes a tree limb and begins to beat them saying ( It's All About The Money Boy's) Ive had 3,000 students in the last 18 years and only 7 have black belts no child can have one unless they can survive against the criminals and rapists here why bother they just become a target. My students have beat and defended them selves against felons and large groups to live another day belt and rank means nothing with out that


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## RTKDCMB (Mar 21, 2013)

Gorilla said:


> http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/english/examination/examination08.jsp?div=01#08
> 
> 
> Thoughts on article 8?
> ...



Personally I think that Kukkiwon standards for minimum promotion time are far too short, far shorter than just about any other martial art. After 1 year of being a 1st Dan students barely understand what it is to be a black belt let alone be anywhere near ready to go up a Dan. To give you a little perspective in the Rhee Tae Kwon Do system that I study (which is a martial art of self defence not a sport in any way) we only have one junior black belt rank which has only been around for the last 15 years or so. After that the junior black belt must then grade for his or her 1st Dan when Master Rhee decides that he or she is mature enough, both mentally and physically to compare to the adults. It is more about attitude, maturity and technique than age, some junior black belts do not get promoted to 1st Dan until their 20's and the youngest ever 1st Dan was only 13, but he was unusually tall for his age, had the right mental attitude and could do everything the adults could do but that was an extremely rare case. After being a 1st Dan, typically for a few years, you can become an instructor and only after then could you be considered for promotion beyond 1st Dan. To go from 1st to 2nd Dan usually requires at least 15 years of training, teaching and promoting the art but can be much longer. 2nd to 3rd Dan is usually after about 5 or 6 more years and you will not find any 4th dan Regional Master instructors in Western Australia who have had less than 30 years of experience.


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 22, 2013)

We wait two years to go from first to second dan, three years from second to third, four years from third to fourth etc, which I feel is about the right time in grade. If you can get a first dan in two years, then get to second dan only one year later, you end up with second dans who have only three years training which is too short in my opinion. I have been in tkd seven years and am almost eligible now to go for my second dan and that seems about right to me.


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## andyjeffries (Mar 22, 2013)

RTKDCMB said:


> Personally I think that Kukkiwon standards for minimum promotion time are far too short, far shorter than just about any other martial art.



And to be honest, I don't think it matters how they compare to other martial arts.  Also bear in mind that they are minimum promotion times.  Not everyone tests "on time".  To be honest, at our club (under our previous instructor) we've gone the other way, I have students who have been a first dan for 10+ years.  I'm trying to change everyone's mindset to focussing on a goal (next promotion, competitions, etc) and working towards it.  So if a 1st Dan has a minimum wait of 1 year for KKW 2nd Dan, we actively work over that year to be ready for it.  Some may make it, some may need more time, but it's better that than treading water for years, improving slowly.

Only with regular performance checkpoints (gradings are a good one) do students truly achieve the peaks and troughs of performance improvement.  When training up for something your skill level increases.



RTKDCMB said:


> After 1 year of being a 1st Dan students barely understand what it is to be a black belt let alone be anywhere near ready to go up a Dan.


 
This is the crux of it though - what does it mean to be a 1st Dan?  You seem to come from the "it's a mythical level somewhere crossed between ninja-assassin, shaolin monk and perfect-man" school of thought.  Personally I think 1st Dan means little more than "now you can do the basics, well enough that you should be able to improve faults/learn new skills in a self-motivated way without needing telling over and over again".



RTKDCMB said:


> To give you a little perspective in the Rhee Tae Kwon Do system that I study (which is a martial art of self defence not a sport in any way) we only have one junior black belt rank which has only been around for the last 15 years or so. After that the junior black belt must then grade for his or her 1st Dan when Master Rhee decides that he or she is mature enough, both mentally and physically to compare to the adults. It is more about attitude, maturity and technique than age, some junior black belts do not get promoted to 1st Dan until their 20's and the youngest ever 1st Dan was only 13, but he was unusually tall for his age, had the right mental attitude and could do everything the adults could do but that was an extremely rare case.



This still comes from a different thinking of what a (junior/senior) black belt means.



RTKDCMB said:


> After being a 1st Dan, typically for a few years, you can become an instructor and only after then could you be considered for promotion beyond 1st Dan. To go from 1st to 2nd Dan usually requires at least 15 years of training, teaching and promoting the art but can be much longer. 2nd to 3rd Dan is usually after about 5 or 6 more years and you will not find any 4th dan Regional Master instructors in Western Australia who have had less than 30 years of experience.



I have two questions for you based on this.  Bearing in mind that your gradings seem to be much slower than other Taekwondo groups.

1) Do your people not feel slighted when others ask what grade your people are after 30 years in the sport and your guys respond with a much lower dan rank than most other people?

2) What grade does Master Rhee allow his black belts to promote others to kup ranks, and at what point to promote others to black belt?

BJJ has one of the longest time in grades amongst the martial arts.  For example, it's commonly quoted that black belt takes an average of 10 years.  However, people can open their own clubs at purple belt (sometimes even blue belt if their black belt instructor allows them) which commonly takes 4-5 years (which is comparable I'd say to the average Taekwondo 1st Dan, outside of Korea).  When they reach black belt, they can promote others (which is comparable to a 4th Dan in Kukki-Taekwondo which takes about the same amount of time).

So, your club has much longer timescales than BJJ, which if you like it - great.  I'm happy for you that you like what you're doing.

But, if I'm being honest, if someone that tells me they've been training for 30 years and are only a 4th Dan - my immediate thoughts would be "did you take a long break in the middle?" or "why so slow to grade, were they not very good or were they lazy?".  I'm sure your guys aren't these things (now I understand that your association just has really long wait times), but those would be my first thoughts when told they were a 30-year training 4th Dan.  I would expect 30-year training black belts to be 5th or more likely 6th Dan.

Cheers,


Andy


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## chrispillertkd (Mar 22, 2013)

andyjeffries said:


> And to be honest, I don't think it matters how they compare to other martial arts. Also bear in mind that they are minimum promotion times. Not everyone tests "on time". To be honest, at our club (under our previous instructor) we've gone the other way, I have students who have been a first dan for 10+ years. I'm trying to change everyone's mindset to focussing on a goal (next promotion, competitions, etc) and working towards it. So if a 1st Dan has a minimum wait of 1 year for KKW 2nd Dan, we actively work over that year to be ready for it. Some may make it, some may need more time, but it's better that than treading water for years, improving slowly.



I don't know about "treading water for years." It certainly isn't inherent in having a longer waiting period between ranks. My instructors also have us wait a minimum of years for the dan level we're going for next (so we have a minimum of two year of regular training from our first dan test before we're eligible to test for second dan, for example). Students still have to show up and train on a regular basis. They have to become proficient in the material they learn at first dan. There's no "treading water" since you get quite a bit of new material at each dan level. If you take time off or simply have a hard time getting the new material down it takes longer than the minimum time requirements (which are just that, minimums). 

Also, the increasing time between tests is a good tool to teach people to set long term goals, develop patience and perserevernce instead of always needing instant gratification (since gup tests tend to be set a few months apart, on average). A wait of two years from first to second dan is about right. I've not seen a student who has made the adjustment from first to second dan ever complain that the wait from second to third dan is too long, for instance, though I have seen students complain that waiting 3 or 4 months between gup levels was interminable. It's a matter of maturing.



> Only with regular performance checkpoints (gradings are a good one) do students truly achieve the peaks and troughs of performance improvement. When training up for something your skill level increases.



Well, maybe. You still are training for something when the required time periods are longer than those the KKW sets, after all. But the KKW still has increasing minimum waiting periods between dan ranks, I believe. Which means now you're just saying that, for instance, a wait of one year to get to second dan is fine, but a wait of two years is not. 



> This is the crux of it though - what does it mean to be a 1st Dan? You seem to come from the "it's a mythical level somewhere crossed between ninja-assassin, shaolin monk and perfect-man" school of thought. Personally I think 1st Dan means little more than "now you can do the basics, well enough that you should be able to improve faults/learn new skills in a self-motivated way without needing telling over and over again".



There's nothing that I've seen in RTKDCMB's posts that indicate he thinks a first dan is a "mystical level somewhere crossed between ninja-assassin, shaolin monk and perfect man." That's just hyperbole on your part. 



> So, your club has much longer timescales than BJJ, which if you like it - great. I'm happy for you that you like what you're doing.
> 
> But, if I'm being honest, if someone that tells me they've been training for 30 years and are only a 4th Dan - my immediate thoughts would be "did you take a long break in the middle?" or "why so slow to grade, were they not very good or were they lazy?". I'm sure your guys aren't these things (now I understand that your association just has really long wait times), but those would be my first thoughts when told they were a 30-year training 4th Dan. I would expect 30-year training black belts to be 5th or more likely 6th Dan.



But this attitude is itself based, at least in part, on a different understanding of what a black belt means, I'd think. Which is exactly what you point out to RTKDCMB that he has compared to the KKW.  

Andy, I assume you require your students to only train for one year before testing them to first dan? How common a practice is that in England?

Pax,

Chris


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## andyjeffries (Mar 22, 2013)

chrispillertkd said:


> I don't know about "treading water for years." It certainly isn't inherent in having a longer waiting period between ranks. My instructors also have us wait a minimum of years for the dan level we're going for next (so we have a minimum of two year of regular training from our first dan test before we're eligible to test for second dan, for example). Students still have to show up and train on a regular basis. They have to become proficient in the material they learn at first dan. There's no "treading water" since you get quite a bit of new material at each dan level. If you take time off or simply have a hard time getting the new material down it takes longer than the minimum time requirements (which are just that, minimums).



I have no issue with the above and even agree with it.  My point is simply that 1st->2nd Dan isn't a big jump, it's from beginner black belt to "one-above-beginner" black belt 

1 year, 2 years, is fine.  10 years is IMHO a crazy long time for such a low rank.



chrispillertkd said:


> Also, the increasing time between tests is a good tool to teach people to set long term goals, develop patience and perserevernce instead of always needing instant gratification (since gup tests tend to be set a few months apart, on average). A wait of two years from first to second dan is about right. I've not seen a student who has made the adjustment from first to second dan ever complain that the wait from second to third dan is too long, for instance, though I have seen students complain that waiting 3 or 4 months between gup levels was interminable. It's a matter of maturing.
> 
> Well, maybe. You still are training for something when the required time periods are longer than those the KKW sets, after all. But the KKW still has increasing minimum waiting periods between dan ranks, I believe. Which means now you're just saying that, for instance, a wait of one year to get to second dan is fine, but a wait of two years is not.



I wasn't clear, sorry, I'm not arguing that one year is fine, two years is not, but that 1, 2 or 3 years is OK (although 3 is a bit long) for such a low rank transition, but 10 years is not.  I'm also OK with increasing time in grade requirements as the grades increase.

Taking RTKDCMB's data:

Start - 2nd Dan = 15 years training time
2nd-3rd Dan = 21 years training time (+6 years from previous)
3rd-4th Dan = 30 years training time (+9 years from previous)

Assuming they got first dan at 20 years old (as most children who achieve junior black belt don't get 1st Dan until their 20s, from RTKDCMB's post) and extrapolating assuming increasing time requirements from there:

4th-5th Dan = 42 years (+12 years from previous) = 62 years old
5th-6th Dan = 57 years (+15 years from previous) = 77 years old

It makes me wonder if this is a way of keeping all your students at lower Dan ranks if they don't even get to be a kodanja until they're in their 70s?



chrispillertkd said:


> There's nothing that I've seen in RTKDCMB's posts that indicate he thinks a first dan is a "mystical level somewhere crossed between ninja-assassin, shaolin monk and perfect man." That's just hyperbole on your part.



Indeed, hence my use of the phrases "You seem to come" and "school of thought". rather than stating it was a direct quote



chrispillertkd said:


> But this attitude is itself based, at least in part, on a different understanding of what a black belt means, I'd think. Which is exactly what you point out to RTKDCMB that he has compared to the KKW.



I agree.



chrispillertkd said:


> Andy, I assume you require your students to only train for one year before testing them to first dan? How common a practice is that in England?



Only require, yes, we grade in line with Kukkiwon requirements on rank.  Gradings are performed by a National Dan Testing Panel of 6th Dan+ by our WTF MNA.  This time limit is set out by our WTF MNA in their syllabus, so I'd imagine it's very common.

That's not to say that I require them to grade on that one year boundary, but if they don't have it in mind and working towards it, then it's all to easy to stagnante.  I have quite a few 1st Dan students that haven't graded in 10 years.  Admittedly I only took over the club a year ago (but I was the senior assistant instructor before then, so had some influence). I don't force them in to it, but I do remind them that they should be working towards it.


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## chrispillertkd (Mar 22, 2013)

andyjeffries said:


> 1 year, 2 years, is fine. 10 years is IMHO a crazy long time for such a low rank.



Well, I tend to agree with 10 years being excessive, under normal conditions. But I'm coming at things from an ITF perspective and you're looking at them from a KKW perspective. It may well be that Rhee Teakwon-Do views first dan as something different, or maybe they have a higher technical standard for their first dans. While we view first dan as one thing Rhee TKD may well view it as something else. From my perspective the KKW timetable is too short. From their perspective the ITF requirements are too long. 



> I wasn't clear, sorry, I'm not arguing that one year is fine, two years is not, but that 1, 2 or 3 years is OK (although 3 is a bit long) for such a low rank transition, but 10 years is not. I'm also OK with increasing time in grade requirements as the grades increase.
> 
> Taking RTKDCMB's data:
> 
> ...



I went back and reread this thread after seeing this. Ralph posted in an earier post the following:

"We wait 2 years from 1st to 2nd dan, 3 years from 2nd to 3rd, 4 years from 3rd to 4th etc."

Both Ralph and RTKDCMB are from Rhee TKD but _if I am reading things correctly_ these are fairly disperate timelines. I do think Ralph's is more reasonable (from my view), even if it takes upwards of 10 years to make first dan. Maybe one or both of them can clarify. 



> It makes me wonder if this is a way of keeping all your students at lower Dan ranks if they don't even get to be a kodanja until they're in their 70s?



It's possible, though I try to give people the benefit of the doubt in situations like this.  I have seen instructors deny students promotions that I would've thought were warranted, but they weren't my student so I didn't know the full story. I've also seen someone's paperwork get "held up" so they get promoted after another person. FWIW, and speaking from the other side, I am now the same rank as one of my instructors, which when I was told I should get ready to test I was quite reticent about it and told them both that. Their reply was, basically, "Yeah, that's nice of you. You're testing in six months." She's still my senior and always will be, though, even if I promote to sixth dan at some point (she hasn't promoted in a long time because of some long standing injuries although her knowledge of Taekwon-Do is phenomenal, as is her teaching ability). As a student, though, I don't really like wearing the same rank as her.  

Pax,

Chris


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 22, 2013)

Gorilla said:


> http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/english/examination/examination08.jsp?div=01#08
> 
> 
> Thoughts on article 8?
> ...


It is a 'this is as fast as you can go at this particular age' regulation.  The Kukkiwon uses the black belt to denote a person who has learned the basics.  That may not be everyone's perception of it, but it is the organizational standard.  You can disagree with that standard.  You can agree with that standard.  So long as they're consistent in how they apply that standard, I don't really care.

As to whether that pacing is good or not greatly depends on the school.  If you're teaching the core Kukkiwon curriculum and nothing more until after ildan, then the pacing and even the age minimums are fine.  

If you're including a grappling and groundfighting program, hybridizing it with hapkido (I've seen that done), including a practical self defense program, and a weapon or two, or if you are one of those schools that utilizes forms additional to the Taegeuk pumsae, then you will need to progress your students at an appropriate pace and probably set up a separate kids program.

What tokens a school owner chooses to reward their students with at a given level is unimportant to me, but no school owner is ingorant of the public perception of a blackbelt, so they should take care in its issuance.  Know that at some point, your black belts will on Youtube.  You cannot crank out legions of blackbelts who lack basic proficiency and expect that people won't know about it.


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## andyjeffries (Mar 22, 2013)

chrispillertkd said:


> Well, I tend to agree with 10 years being excessive, under normal conditions. But I'm coming at things from an ITF perspective and you're looking at them from a KKW perspective. It may well be that Rhee Teakwon-Do views first dan as something different, or maybe they have a higher technical standard for their first dans. While we view first dan as one thing Rhee TKD may well view it as something else. From my perspective the KKW timetable is too short. From their perspective the ITF requirements are too long.



I think either ITF or KKW is fine (I go by KKW because I am KKW, but I think ITF is fine too).



chrispillertkd said:


> I went back and reread this thread after seeing this. Ralph posted in an earier post the following:
> 
> "We wait 2 years from 1st to 2nd dan, 3 years from 2nd to 3rd, 4 years from 3rd to 4th etc."
> 
> Both Ralph and RTKDCMB are from Rhee TKD but _if I am reading things correctly_ these are fairly disperate timelines. I do think Ralph's is more reasonable (from my view), even if it takes upwards of 10 years to make first dan. Maybe one or both of them can clarify.



Indeed.



chrispillertkd said:


> It's possible, though I try to give people the benefit of the doubt in situations like this.  I have seen instructors deny students promotions that I would've thought were warranted, but they weren't my student so I didn't know the full story. I've also seen someone's paperwork get "held up" so they get promoted after another person. FWIW, and speaking from the other side, I am now the same rank as one of my instructors, which when I was told I should get ready to test I was quite reticent about it and told them both that. Their reply was, basically, "Yeah, that's nice of you. You're testing in six months." She's still my senior and always will be, though, even if I promote to sixth dan at some point



Before my instructor died last year, I had promoted to the same grade as him.  I was a bit funny about it, but he took the point of view "what do I care, it's my choice not to grade any more and I don't want to hold you up from doing it if you want to".  Same as you, he would have always been my senior regardless of rank.



chrispillertkd said:


> (she hasn't promoted in a long time because of some long standing injuries although her knowledge of Taekwon-Do is phenomenal, as is her teaching ability). As a student, though, I don't really like wearing the same rank as her.



I don't think injuries should hold someone up from advancement (particularly if their knowledge/teaching is up to scratch).  Even if it's a long term injury, then the seniors should make allowances at the test.  That's just me though (and it may be her choosing not to because of them, rather than concerns that she wouldn't pass because of them).


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## andyjeffries (Mar 22, 2013)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> If you're including a grappling and groundfighting program, hybridizing it with hapkido (I've seen that done), including a practical self defense program, and a weapon or two



Then personally I think you should be promoted in the self-defence system, weapon system, grappling system, hapkido, etc. - and it should be unrelated to your Taekwondo rank.  I think this is the common viewpoint in Korea too, where lots of masters also have dan rank in Hapkido, Yudo, etc - it doesn't hold up their KKW Taekwondo rank, they get separate ranking for it.



Daniel Sullivan said:


> What tokens a school owner chooses to reward their students with at a given level is unimportant to me, but no school owner is ingorant of the public perception of a blackbelt, so they should take care in its issuance.  Know that at some point, your black belts will on Youtube.  You cannot crank out legions of blackbelts who lack basic proficiency and expect that people won't know about it.



True, I just prefer to judge it based on skill not time.  Too many thank of time before skill (you shouldn't be an Nth Dan after only Y years).  My expectations of each rank are based on how much I reasonably believe people can improve in Y years.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 22, 2013)

andyjeffries said:


> Then personally I think you should be promoted in the self-defence system, weapon system, grappling system, hapkido, etc. - and it should be unrelated to your Taekwondo rank.  I think this is the common viewpoint in Korea too, where lots of masters also have dan rank in Hapkido, Yudo, etc - it doesn't hold up their KKW Taekwondo rank, they get separate ranking for it.


No argument with any of this, but many schools teach a combined curriculum.  I don't see this as inherently good or bad, as it really depends on who the instructor is and how well those elements can be made to work in synergy with each other.



andyjeffries said:


> True, I just prefer to judge it based on skill not time.  Too many thank of time before skill (you shouldn't be an Nth Dan after only Y years).  My expectations of each rank are based on how much I reasonably believe people can improve in Y years.


I agree.  And if everyone promoted based on skill rather than on time and/or fees paid, we wouldn't be having most of these discussions.


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## RTKDCMB (Mar 22, 2013)

andyjeffries said:


> I have two questions for you based on this.  Bearing in mind that your gradings seem to be much slower than other Taekwondo groups.
> 
> 1) Do your people not feel slighted when others ask what grade your people are after 30 years in the sport and your guys respond with a much lower dan rank than most other people?
> 
> ...



First of all I would like to point out that Rhee Tae Kwon Do has no sporting aspects of any kind. To answer your questions:

1)  No we do not feel slighted, the Dans on the belt are just extra bits of material on the belt, what is important is the skills and knowledge that comes with training and teaching the art. Usually when someone asks me what rank I am I just tell them I am an instructor.

2) Branch instructors whether they are 1st Dans or higher can grade students up to and including 1st Kup. Instructors promote students during the regular class when they are ready, whether they are ready after 1 month or 9 months after their previous rank and we have what we call Action days every 3 months, which is basically a grading where all the students in the region participate but only a few that are ready at the time actually grade, this started only a few years ago. All black belt gradings are personally conducted by Master Rhee himself who travels around most of Australia conducting the action days 4 times a year, he does at least 3 in the Perth region where I am.


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## chrispillertkd (Mar 22, 2013)

andyjeffries said:


> I don't think injuries should hold someone up from advancement (particularly if their knowledge/teaching is up to scratch). Even if it's a long term injury, then the seniors should make allowances at the test. That's just me though (and it may be her choosing not to because of them, rather than concerns that she wouldn't pass because of them).



Well, they are chronic conditions she's had for years. She still does train, though not nearly as much as she used to. I was in the room when a very senior member of the ITF offered to let her test for VI dan and have her do a curtailed physical exam. She very respectfully declined. She's just not interested in further promotions.

To be honest, I am not a fan of making allowances for injuries. A physical or even mental handicap is another matter. But, the fact is, some sort of standard has to be maintained and Taekwon-Do's ranking system is supposed to take into consideration both physical ability and mental maturity. Some people just aren't going to be able to attain some of the higher ranks. Personally, I would rather be a good V dan than a fair to middling VI dan. 

Pax,

Chris


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## Gorilla (Mar 22, 2013)

After you get past 5th Dan I think rank should be heavily weighted towards contributions to the Art...

The physical test should have less influence!


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## chrispillertkd (Mar 23, 2013)

Gorilla said:


> After you get past 5th Dan I think rank should be heavily weighted towards contributions to the Art...
> 
> The physical test should have less influence!



Well, that may be true for the KKW but the ITF has a syllabus and physical tests up through VII dan. Indeed, you're not considered a "Master" until you're a VII dan. YMMV based on your training experiences in KKW Taekwondo but they don't necessarily carry over into other organizations/styles.

Pax,

Chris


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Mar 23, 2013)

andyjeffries said:


> ... When I was younger it was always seen as 4th Dan is Master rank, with the privilege to promote students up to 3rd Dan Kukkiwon.  1st Dans and above could open their own school, teach their own students, but would need a 4th Dan to promote them.
> 
> In recent years, this seems to have changed to "4th Dan is kinda-Master, but more Junior Master" and our national governing body requires examiners to be 5th Dan and the national syllabus only considers 5th Dan to be Master (4th Dan is labelled "Instructor").
> 
> ...My experience is mainly UK-based, so this may be different in the USA or Canada.


In Canada, 5th dan is required to test students.

Here is the definition of "Master" from Taewkondo Canada: "Master means a Kukkiwon certified 5th Dan or higher, who is qualified to promote colour belts and black belts in accordance to Kukkiwon regulations."


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## andyjeffries (Mar 24, 2013)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> In Canada, 5th dan is required to test students.
> 
> Here is the definition of "Master" from Taewkondo Canada: "Master means a Kukkiwon certified 5th Dan or higher, who is qualified to promote colour belts and black belts in accordance to Kukkiwon regulations."



Which is funny because Article 20 of the Kukkiwon regulations say they require a Kukkiwon 4th Dan to promote students to gup rank, Article 5 says individual instructors (in most countries) can recommend for Kukkiwon dan rank, which in Kukkiwon terms instructors are 4th Dan +.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Mar 24, 2013)

andyjeffries said:


> Which is funny because Article 20 of the Kukkiwon regulations say they require a Kukkiwon 4th Dan to promote students to gup rank, Article 5 says individual instructors (in most countries) can recommend for Kukkiwon dan rank, which in Kukkiwon terms instructors are 4th Dan +.



Someone ages ago posted a link to a WTF document called "2011poomsae.pdf" which showed the new  uniforms. The document (which I saved) called 1-3 dans "Master", 4-6 "Instructor Master" and 7-9 "Grand Master".  So I wasn't surprised when you mentioned "instructors" as being at least 4th dan.

Nonetheless, the school where I study (in Canada) calls 1-3 dans who teach "instructor" and 4th dans "Master".


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## Metal (Mar 25, 2013)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> Someone ages ago posted a link to a WTF document called "2011poomsae.pdf" which showed the new  uniforms.



Yeah, I still have the first version of that document, too. On the website of JCalicu (the company that's manufacturing the new Poomsae uniforms) they now just say Dan Holder (1-6) and High Dan Holder (7-9).

Interesting is that in the section of the Poom Uniforms they write "for 1st - 4th Dan under the age of 17". ( http://www.jcalicu.com/ )


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 29, 2013)

Thought I'd share this here, as this thread is essentially about youth and children.  This little girl is a purple belt, not a black belt.  But I saw video posted by an adult fourth dan within the past year that didn't look this good.  https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=231875343624401

I'm not holding this up as an endorsement of child black belts, though if every child black belt looked like this, the debate about child black belts would be very different.


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## Metal (Mar 29, 2013)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Thought I'd share this here, as this thread is essentially about youth and children.  This little girl is a purple belt, not a black belt.  But I saw video posted by an adult fourth dan within the past year that didn't look this good.  https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=231875343624401
> 
> I'm not holding this up as an endorsement of child black belts, though if every child black belt looked like this, the debate about child black belts would be very different.




The really amazing kids do Karate:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10200228146483319

^^

There's probably some killer footage of young kids doing amazing Poomsae somewhere out there, too.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 29, 2013)

Metal said:


> The really amazing kids do Karate:
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10200228146483319
> 
> ...


And I repeat, if every child black belt looked like this, the debate about child black belts would be very different.


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## Gorilla (Mar 29, 2013)

Charlie is on the USA-NKF JR National Team and is a Shodan in Shotokan Karate...current National Champion 14-15 under 60kl...His black belt is regularly questioned on this BBS some have even called me a liar!


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 29, 2013)

Gorilla said:


> Charlie is on the USA-NKF JR National Team and is a Shodan in Shotokan Karate...current National Champion 14-15 under 60kl...His black belt is regularly questioned on this BBS some have even called me a liar!



Which is humorous, considering that I have seen it referred to as "children's karate" quite a few times on this BBS.


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 29, 2013)

Skill level does have a lot to do with it. When I see a child black belt who is incredibly skilled I dont have a problem with it as much, but highly skilled child black belts are incredibly rare. I must admit, since Ive started shotokan I have seen much higher skilled children, there is a kid in my shotokan class who is an eight year old green belt and he is really good, he trains six days a week though, and the club is incredibly strict on kid's standards. It is extremely rare for a child not to have to "sit out" every second grading, and the slightest slip up at grading is automatic fail. With these sorts of guidelines, I can accept child black belts a little more. I have only seen one child black belt since training there and he is mind blowingly good.


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## Gorilla (Mar 29, 2013)

Charlie just won a Bronze Medal tonight at the Karate JR International Open under 60kl..he won 5 fights lost 4-3 to Venezuela...
This kid was the under 57 kg Pan Am Champion...had fighters From Australia, Sierra Leone, Mexico, Venezuela and Ecuador.

HE fights in the US Open on Sunday un 52kg...


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 30, 2013)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Skill level does have a lot to do with it. When I see a child black belt who is incredibly skilled I dont have a problem with it as much, but highly skilled child black belts are incredibly rare. I must admit, since Ive started shotokan I have seen much higher skilled children, there is a kid in my shotokan class who is an eight year old green belt and he is really good, he trains six days a week though, and the club is incredibly strict on kid's standards. It is extremely rare for a child not to have to "sit out" every second grading, and the slightest slip up at grading is automatic fail. With these sorts of guidelines, I can accept child black belts a little more. I have only seen one child black belt since training there and he is mind blowingly good.


When the child demonstrates the ability, I am fine with it.  I don't even require them to be as good as the one's in the video, as many adult black belts are not either.  As I said, I saw video of a fourth dan who wasn't that good within the past year.

However, when a school is cranking them out, I tend to view it as a business decision designed to milk parents out of one last chunk of cash prior to the contract's end.


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## Gorilla (Apr 1, 2013)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> When the child demonstrates the ability, I am fine with it.  I don't even require them to be as good as the one's in the video, as many adult black belts are not either.  As I said, I saw video of a fourth dan who wasn't that good within the past year.
> 
> However, when a school is cranking them out, I tend to view it as a business decision designed to milk parents out of one last chunk of cash prior to the contract's end.



Did we see the same video!:fart:


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## chrispillertkd (Apr 1, 2013)

Gorilla said:


> Did we see the same video!:fart:


 You're suggesting the girl in the video did poorly? I just did a youtube search on taekwondo children poomse and the results were woeful. Pax, Chris


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## Daniel Sullivan (Apr 1, 2013)

Gorilla said:


> Daniel Sullivan said:
> 
> 
> > When the child demonstrates the ability, I am fine with it.  I don't even require them to be as good as the one's in the video, as many adult black belts are not either.  As I said, I saw video of a fourth dan who wasn't that good within the past year.
> ...


Are you talking about the kid or the adult that I mentioned?


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## Gorilla (Apr 1, 2013)

The Adult... it was not a serious question! Probably a little punchy...I just spent 3 days and 36 hours running a scoreboard at a Karate tournament.
:drinkbeer


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