# Too many Judo throws?



## Henderson (Jan 10, 2006)

In another thread we've been discussing the differences between two particular Judo throws. Which, at the core, seem to be very minor to me. This got me thinking... Are there too many throws in Judo? It seems that if there is any slight difference in tori's body position, or entrance, or whatever; the throw has it's own name.

For example...those of you that know Uki Goshi... Why is it that if I perform this throw as it should be done, but happen to grab the obi, it is no longer uki goshi...it's tsuri goshi. Lifting hip...floating hip... the motion is the same to me. Anyone else feel this way?:idunno: 

Respects,

Frank

**PS-- don't get me wrong here, I love Judo . I'm not bashing it in any way. Just wondering about the nitpicking such minor differences.


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## arnisador (Jan 10, 2006)

If you mean there are too many names, I suppose that it's a matter of taste whether certain techniques are "new" throws or just variations of old ones...that's taxonomy. But I think the variations are there for an important rason...to show you how to make your technique work from a different grip, or if your opponent gives you a different energy. So, I don't think there are too many--esp. since the intent behind Judo was to preserve old ways.


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## TheBattousai (Jan 10, 2006)

The main reason (in my opinion), there are so many throws is that it teaches the different applications of throwing princibles. Take the mentioned example of Ukigoshi and Tsurigoshi (which also has variations, but we'll ignore that today): Ukigoshi, "floating hip," the idea is that the continueing motion of your arm is what throws the uke. Hence the uke "floats" over the tori's hips. In Tsurigoshi, the idea is that leaverage is what throws the uke, meaning that grabbing the belt and not using your knees when possible, is what throws thems. Its little things like that is what mainly makes things so difficult in learnig and performing the throws. So I don't think that there are too many really, just alot to learn like in most MAs.


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## Henderson (Jan 10, 2006)

TheBattousai said:
			
		

> Ukigoshi, "floating hip," the idea is that the continueing motion of your arm is what throws the uke. Hence the uke "floats" over the tori's hips.


Of course, the upper body plays a part in this throw. 



			
				TheBattousai said:
			
		

> In Tsurigoshi, the idea is that leaverage is what throws the uke, meaning that grabbing the belt *and not using your knees when possible*, is what throws thems.


I must definitely disagree with this statement. Tsuri Goshi, like all other "hip throws" involves a lot of use of the knees. I can't imagine any hip throw without bending the knees.

Respects,

Frank


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## TheBattousai (Jan 11, 2006)

I meant it as an ideallalistic goal, but I'll admit that I may confusing it with one of the variations.


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## Jitsuka91 (Oct 14, 2007)

Maybe the simple answer is because Imagining trying to learn the japanese of "like floating hip but with your arm on thier lappels instead" that would be a nightmare, so giving it, a different name makes sense (in my head anyways)


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## MarkBarlow (Oct 15, 2007)

Judo was my first art and I still believe it is one of the best foundation arts to study but I do prefer the way techniques are labeled in Jujutsu.   All hip throws are grouped under koshi nage, whether it's o goshi, koshi guruma, tsuri goshi, uki goshi, etc...  Everyone is taught the most basic application and after becoming comfortable with that, they're free to explore the others and adapt it to their own use.


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## Keikai (Oct 16, 2007)

TheBattousai said:


> Ukigoshi, "floating hip," the idea is that the continueing motion of your arm is what throws the uke. Hence the uke "floats" over the tori's hips.


 
Interesting about Uki Goshi. We do this as something of a a short cut hip throw for a tall person on a shorter attacker. We drive the hip in almost at right angles to the attacker and lift them off the ground. The defender then removes their hip and allows the attacker to drop. For us the "floating" is done by the defender.



TheBattousai said:


> In Tsurigoshi, the idea is that leaverage is what throws the uke, meaning that grabbing the belt and not using your knees when possible, is what throws thems.


 
Can't say I would ever agree with any hip or shoulder type throw being done without bending the knees. The defender MUST get under the attacker's centre of gravity in order to lift them. Some form of bend is required even for taller attackers. For them you need to set for the variations of hip throw, namely sweeping, uchi mata and spring. We classify all these as hip throws.


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## MarkBarlow (Oct 16, 2007)

MarkBarlow said:


> Judo was my first art and I still believe it is one of the best foundation arts to study but I do *prefer the way techniques are labeled in Jujutsu*.   All hip throws are grouped under koshi nage, whether it's o goshi, koshi guruma, tsuri goshi, uki goshi, etc...  Everyone is taught the most basic application and after becoming comfortable with that, they're free to explore the others and adapt it to their own use.



I should have said that I prefer the way techniques are grouped in the style I study.  Not all Jujutsu systems use the same terminology and labels.


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## Abbax8 (Oct 19, 2007)

Henderson said:


> In another thread we've been discussing the differences between two particular Judo throws. Which, at the core, seem to be very minor to me. This got me thinking... Are there too many throws in Judo? It seems that if there is any slight difference in tori's body position, or entrance, or whatever; the throw has it's own name.
> 
> For example...those of you that know Uki Goshi... Why is it that if I perform this throw as it should be done, but happen to grab the obi, it is no longer uki goshi...it's tsuri goshi. Lifting hip...floating hip... the motion is the same to me. Anyone else feel this way?:idunno:
> 
> ...



Uki-Goshi uses a twisting action as the throwing impetus. Tsuri-Goshi (and O-Goshi) use a lifting action of the legs and a turn to throw. In Uki-Goshi tori does not bend the knees as much as in Tsuri-Goshi. The motion is different.

Peace

Dennis


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