# Does WT commonly use circular attacks?



## Lestat83 (Mar 7, 2015)

i have a question. The system i do is spelt Wing Tchun...no mention of lineage. I asked my teacher why we use jabs, crosses, hooks and he said Wing Tchun uses curving, circular as well as straight atracks. I find this confusing given all ive read about WT and straight line attacks.

Though i can see if all you launch are straight attacks you become rather predictable and limited.

...your take on hooks and other non linear attacks in Wing Tchun?


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 7, 2015)

Lestat83 said:


> i have a question. The system i do is spelt Wing Tchun...no mention of lineage. I asked my teacher why we use jabs, crosses, hooks and he said Wing Tchun uses curving, circular as well as straight atracks. I find this confusing given all ive read about WT and straight line attacks.
> 
> Though i can see if all you launch are straight attacks you become rather predictable and limited.
> 
> ...your take on hooks and other non linear attacks in Wing Tchun?


There is no such thing as center line. It is just a concept in your head. The human body works on a circle; so, center line means, between the circles, in real life. You will notice your arms aren't ever on your center, so, you must cut the circle to put them there, and that happens on a circle. Am I getting circular? LOL


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## Danny T (Mar 7, 2015)

Lestat83 said:


> i have a question. The system i do is spelt Wing Tchun...no mention of lineage. I asked my teacher why we use jabs, crosses, hooks and he said Wing Tchun uses curving, circular as well as straight atracks. I find this confusing given all ive read about WT and straight line attacks.
> 
> Though i can see if all you launch are straight attacks you become rather predictable and limited.
> 
> ...your take on hooks and other non linear attacks in Wing Tchun?


Force is linear, energy is circular. 
There are many circular motions within WC. Huen Sao is circular, the elbow action in Tan Sao is circular, Bong Sao is a spiral (circular) motion, all the turning in Chum Kiu is circular. Elbow strikes are circular motions. Many, many circular motions within wing chun.


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## Eric_H (Mar 7, 2015)

Lestat83 said:


> i have a question. The system i do is spelt Wing Tchun...no mention of lineage. I asked my teacher why we use jabs, crosses, hooks and he said Wing Tchun uses curving, circular as well as straight atracks. I find this confusing given all ive read about WT and straight line attacks.
> 
> Though i can see if all you launch are straight attacks you become rather predictable and limited.
> 
> ...your take on hooks and other non linear attacks in Wing Tchun?



My first WC instructor had a particular take on it, he said that WC was more of a triangle with a circle in it (linear preference with small circle when needed) vs animal based kung fu like chi sim which was a circle with a triangle in it (using round motions to find an angle of entry). To date I've not seen anything that contradicts that estimation of either style.


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## Danny T (Mar 7, 2015)

Eric_H said:


> My first WC instructor had a particular take on it, he said that WC was more of a triangle with a circle in it (linear preference with small circle when needed) vs animal based kung fu like chi sim which was a circle with a triangle in it (using round motions to find an angle of entry). To date I've not seen anything that contradicts that estimation of either style.


Nice. I like the triangle with a circle in it. Thanks for sharing that Eric.


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## geezer (Mar 7, 2015)

Lestat83 said:


> i have a question. The system i do is spelt Wing Tchun...no mention of lineage....



_L'estat _ask your sifu if his Wing Tchun has any connection with Sifu "Fighterman" Fernandez and his Wing Tchun Do --since _his_ lineage is well known. Or is the similar spelling just a coincidence?

As far as circles go, some WC lineages emphasize linear techniques and do not use hook punches, etc. Personally, I agree with what Danny T said on the subject.


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## KPM (Mar 8, 2015)

It seems to me the better question here is....does most Wing Chun have "jabs, crosses, and hooks"???


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## ShortBridge (Mar 8, 2015)

KPM said:


> It seems to me the better question here is....does most Wing Chun have "jabs, crosses, and hooks"???



From my humble perspective:
I would be hesitant to use these terms because of the connotation to western boxing. It's an argument waiting to happen.

I have heard one of the longer bridge strikes from the later part of the system likened to a jab and can see that, though it doesn't look like classic Marquis de Queensbury jab, though. 

Hook - yeah.

Cross...I would struggle with that one.

You've received some excellent answers on circularity above.


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## Vajramusti (Mar 8, 2015)

Confusion in names- when western boxing terms are used to label wing chun motions. The structures of wing chun and western boxing are vastly different. Western boxers tend to "load"  the shoulder muscles- not so in good wing chun.imo


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## Jake104 (Mar 8, 2015)

KPM said:


> It seems to me the better question here is....does most Wing Chun have "jabs, crosses, and hooks"???


Good wing chun should! But as Joy pointed out, structure and body mechanics differ from the boxing terms used in your post.


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## Danny T (Mar 9, 2015)

We certainly have crosses. What we don't have is the boxer straight rt or left if a southpaw. The cross is simply a straight punch which crosses the opponents punching arm. So a conventional boxer's rt cross would be a straight right crossing the opponents jab arm. A wing chun straight punch crossing the opponent's punch arm would be a cross.


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## KPM (Mar 11, 2015)

Jake104 said:


> Good wing chun should! But as Joy pointed out, structure and body mechanics differ from the boxing terms used in your post.



I was simply quoting the OP.   And I could be wrong, but the way he stated it leads me to believe he meant the western boxing version of these punches.   I guess we will have to wait for him to clarify that!   Wing Chun certainly has its own counterparts of boxing's "jab, cross, and hook", but as some have pointed out, wouldn't typically use those terms because they  are not the same punches.


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## geezer (Mar 11, 2015)

KPM said:


> Wing Chun certainly has its own counterparts of boxing's "jab, cross, and hook", but as some have pointed out, wouldn't typically use those terms because they  are not the same punches.


 
True. Sometimes I fall back on boxing terms to simplify, especially when talking to people who don't know WC and probably wouldn't be interested in a lengthier, if more accurate explanation.

Anyway, KPM ...if you will excuse an of-topic comment... A while back on another thread, I believe you made a comment about having some isues lately with WC and spending more time lately with Silat or FMA? Is this true or did I just have another bout of rye-ergot poisoning? If so, why not start a thread. As an eternal skeptic and fellow FMA practitioner, I'd be really interested in your comments/observations.


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## r'n'r (Mar 14, 2015)

Hooks and uppercuts, definitely. Leg kicks, yes. Elbows, you bet. All these are circular. Straight line only makes sense if there's an opening. If there isn't one, you can create it or you can go around the defence.

The closest thing I know of to the jab would be a hand attack that is combined with a step from the pole form. Can't remember the name.


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## geezer (Mar 14, 2015)

r'n'r said:


> Hooks and uppercuts, definitely. Leg kicks, yes. Elbows, you bet. All these are circular. Straight line only makes sense if there's an opening. If there isn't one, you can create it or you can go around the defence.
> 
> The closest thing I know of to the jab would be a hand attack that is combined with a step from the pole form. Can't remember the name.



"Arrow punch" ...or sometimes "battle punch". Used more for physical training than in sparring, It doesn't seem at all like a jab to me. 

Now the WC "hook" as in my lineage's Biu Tze is far more whip-like than a boxer's hook. The WC version uses body torque but isn't driven by the shoulder like a boxer's  hook. It may trace a similar arcing path through space, but it's a whole different animal. Same for the WC "lifting punch" which resembles and uppercut. Elbows can move in arcs (kup, gwai, and pai jarn)or nearly straight lines (lan sau).

Otherwise I agree. We attack following the shortest path, typically a straight line ...unless something gets in the way, then you just go around the obstacle. Now that's a curve, isn't it!


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## r'n'r (Mar 15, 2015)

geezer said:


> "Arrow punch" ...or sometimes "battle punch". Used more for physical training than in sparring, It doesn't seem at all like a jab to me.



No, that's not the one. I'd call it a step up punch, because you bring your rear leg to your lead leg. I can't find a picture or a video, but it's similar to what Bruce does at 0:32 here:


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## Lestat83 (Mar 15, 2015)

Sorry for time to reply.

I use western terms because thats what my instructor does...all WT terms we use are anglisised....ie

Angle arm...tan sau
Slap hand...pock sau
wing arm...boang sau
Pinning arm...gum sau

The reasoning for this is simple...we are there to learn a martial art not another language. If you learnt something in the academic arena you would use your native languages terms not another languages. I realise this may be heresy to a lot of other schools.
But thats how we roll 

So my instructor uses, jab, cross etc...and yes the body mechanics are different though this isnt really covered in class so much.

I do not appreciate the lack of obvious lineage though...its like my sirname...without it where did i come from? Who were my grandparents etc


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## geezer (Mar 16, 2015)

Lestat83 said:


> Sorry for time to reply.
> 
> I use western terms because thats what my instructor does...all WT terms we use are anglisised....
> 
> ...



No problem. Now you know that your lineage is Yip Man > Leung Ting > Nick Smart > your sifu > you. The Leung Ting connection is important to know since he created the "WT" system and it differs in certain important respects from other Yip Man branches. 

As far as you instructor not talking about this, there could be legal reasons. Many well known WT instructors have broken away from Leung Ting's organization over the years. The reasons vary from conflicts of personality, business issues, to differences in technique. In some cases the splits were especially acrimonius and resulted in legal actions which actually prohibited the splinter group from using Leung Ting's name, and in at least one case I know of, the "WT" spelling as well. 

Things like this happen all the time in the martial arts world and, IMO, don't reflect in any way on the quality of your school. _That  _you will have to judge for yourself.


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## Lestat83 (Mar 16, 2015)

Hummm, interesting stuff geezer. Very inciteful, especially the bit about the WT instructors breaking off and the many reasons. 

The breaking off in my school has resulted in certain changes to the curriculum...i do not believe any weapons are taught. It focusses exclusively on hand vs hand and hand vs knife etc.

One day i may pursue knife training given i believe to learn to defend against something understanding how it can be used will broaden your understanding.

Either way this thread and the other one where i mention Nick Smart are proving very informative for me and i suspect are answering questions that wouldnt be answered to my satisfaction if i asked my Sifu.

Many thanks for the info geezer et al.


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## ShortBridge (Mar 16, 2015)

I will say thought that instructors seem to break off from the Leung Ting lineage more often than from other lineages. I don't have data, except my own observation and 2nd hand experiences.


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## Kwan Sau (Mar 16, 2015)

ShortBridge said:


> I will say thought that instructors seem to break off from the Leung Ting lineage more often than from other lineages. I don't have data, except my own observation and 2nd hand experiences.



I've observed that as well. Don't know why...but just noticed that it mostly occurs with LT's higher/more advanced students / disciples.
A curiosity we may never unravel...


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## Lestat83 (Mar 16, 2015)

Yes, probably right... To unravel this is quite likely impossible


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## geezer (Mar 16, 2015)

ShortBridge said:


> I will say thought that instructors seem to break off from the Leung Ting lineage more often than from other lineages. I don't have data, except my own observation and 2nd hand experiences.



From what I've seen, it's quite common for martial arts organizations to have splits and break into splinter groups. My kid's TKD school split from it's parent organization for similar reasons. And IMO it is a great school. Now if LT has had more than his share of "rebels", I'd attribute that to issues of personality, pricing, and his business practices in general. I will always respect the man's skill. But, I train with a group of the aforementioned "rebels". And, yes I was one of his first "disciples" in the US, although to be honest, my skills are quite mediocre within our group.


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## ShortBridge (Mar 17, 2015)

I'm not suggesting why and I'm not second guessing anyone's ability or legitimacy, it just seems like roughly 1/2 of the LT people I meet are affiliated and 1/2 are not. 

It doesn't seem to be as common in other lineages of Yip Man Wing Chun, though I suppose I do know of one or two here and there across all other lineages.


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## Lestat83 (Mar 17, 2015)

He says why he broke off here in fact...

http://www.autodefence.com/nick-mai.pdf

Skip to...

"MAI why the spelling Wing Tchun"

And is he talking about LT's organisation here?

"MAI what are your goals for the organisation?"


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## Jake104 (Mar 20, 2015)

KPM said:


> I was simply quoting the OP.   And I could be wrong, but the way he stated it leads me to believe he meant the western boxing version of these punches.   I guess we will have to wait for him to clarify that!   Wing Chun certainly has its own counterparts of boxing's "jab, cross, and hook", but as some have pointed out, wouldn't typically use those terms because they  are not the same punches.


I would say this. Those are just arm positions. Look at it like a war head. The delivery system of that war head or body mechanics for this example, determines if it's WC or boxing or yoga.

If Wing Chun only consisted of a straight punch. I would of laughed at it and questioned if it worked and thought it was fantasy fu like most MMA 'ers. But I was taught straight circular and spiral. I know it works and I LIKE that people argue about whos got the right stuff or if it works. Keeps people occupied with nonsense and allows me to be that much better. Haha! Suckers!


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 20, 2015)

Jake104 said:


> ...
> If Wing Chun only consisted of a straight punch. I would of laughed at it and questioned if it worked and thought it was fantasy fu like most MMA 'ers. But I was taught straight circular and spiral. I know it works and I LIKE that people argue about whos got the right stuff or if it works. Keeps people occupied with nonsense and allows me to be that much better. Haha! Suckers!


|
You said a TMA mouthful....


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## geezer (Mar 20, 2015)

ShortBridge said:


> ...It (changing associacions/sifus) doesn't seem to be as common in other lineages of Yip Man Wing Chun, though *I suppose I do know of one or two here and there *across all other lineages.



Then_ you haven't been paying attention_. Many, if not most of the prominent WC figures have worked with different sifus, and many end up going out on their own. Since most "old school " Chinese sifus don't share students with other instructors, that means that these guys are also "break aways", except not every group is as _public_ about it as LT. And interestingly many of LT's prominent "rebels" originally came to him only after leaving other WC sifus.

Personally I think it's perfectly normal for a person to pursue their own path eventually. In any other field of knowledge, you attend school, then college, then graduate school, maybe followed by an internship. But eventually, you are supposed to make your own mark in the world. You don't follow your college professor around as "a disciple" for your entire life! Same in sports. Athletes don't stay with the same coach or team for an entire career. _Only in TMA.

Now back to the OP: _ What Jake said. Different situations and different opponents require different energies. Your punch can go straight or curve around an obstruction, or whip in from the side. Power can be released in a lot of ways. Dropping, rising, thrusting, twisting, spiraling.... Ironically, in recent years, I've found some of my best insights into WC have come from outside WC. Sometimes even basic things are clearer when viewed from a different perspective.
_
_


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## Danny T (Mar 20, 2015)

geezer said:


> Then_ you haven't been paying attention_. Many, if not most of the prominent WC figures have worked with different sifus, and many end up going out on their own. Since most "old school " Chinese sifus don't share students with other instructors, that means that these guys are also "break aways", except not every group is as _public_ about it as LT. And interestingly many of LT's prominent "rebels" originally came to him only after leaving other WC sifus.


When researching the history of the martial arts top instructors you will come to realize almost all of them have had multiple instructors, masters, sifus or whatever.


geezer said:


> Ironically, in recent years, I've found some of my best insights into WC have come from outside WC. Sometimes even basic things are clearer when viewed from a different perspective.


Yes, yes, yes!


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## ShortBridge (Mar 20, 2015)

geezer said:


> Then_ you haven't been paying attention_. Many, if not most of the prominent WC figures have worked with different sifus, and many end up going out on their own. Since most "old school " Chinese sifus don't share students with other instructors, that means that these guys are also "break aways", except not every group is as _public_ about it as LT. And interestingly many of LT's prominent "rebels" originally came to him only after leaving other WC sifus.
> 
> Personally I think it's perfectly normal for a person to pursue their own path eventually. In any other field of knowledge, you attend school, then college, then graduate school, maybe followed by an internship. But eventually, you are supposed to make your own mark in the world. You don't follow your college professor around as "a disciple" for your entire life! Same in sports. Athletes don't stay with the same coach or team for an entire career. _Only in TMA.
> 
> Now back to the OP: ..._



You edited my post when you quoted me. I didn't say "changing" lineages. For the record, I started in one lineage and ended up in another after a move across the country. You're right, it does happen all the time ... and I do pay attention.

That's not what I was commenting on. If it's important to you, please go back and reread. Better yet, let's move on, I already regret getting involved in this conversation at all.


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## Jake104 (Mar 22, 2015)

geezer said:


> Ironically, in recent years, I've found some of my best insights into WC have come from outside WC. Sometimes even basic things are clearer when viewed from a different perspective.


Same here! Geezer and I train in the same group outside of WC, "DTE".. Very diverse group. Grapplers, boxers , Thai boxers and even Karate. Interesting thing is when working a technique. The technique changes with  each person/art. This has taught me that the idea is more important than the technique. I try to not think in terms of technique anymore, but rather energy principals and ideas. I don't think I would of learned this without training outside of Wing Chun. Same reason IMO IP Man students went out on there own to fight other arts back in the day.


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## Danny T (Mar 22, 2015)

Jake104 said:


> Same here! Geezer and I train in the same group outside of WC, "DTE".. Very diverse group. Grapplers, boxers , Thai boxers and even Karate. Interesting thing is when working a technique. The technique changes with  each person/art. This has taught me that the idea is more important than the technique. I try to not think in terms of technique anymore, but rather energy principals and ideas. I don't think I would of learned this without training outside of Wing Chun. Same reason IMO IP Man students went out on there own to fight other arts back in the day.


Am a strong proponent of sparring vs other styles. Not someone within your style attempting to mimic another style.
e.g. a wing chunner pretending to be a nak muay rather than one that is a nak muay. If you have people who have training with in your circle that is better but then you need to go to those outside of your circle of training.


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