# The two hand "X" block against a kick?



## still learning (Oct 30, 2007)

Hello, The "X" block, double hand block to the kicks and above our heads...that you see in lot of "kata's? and some training...

If someone was to kick real hard and we try to block the kick with two hands techniques .....will our wrist or arms hurt and will we be able to Block hits to our open "head"?..after blocking the kicks?

We have this in our Pinion 5 Kempo kata where we turn into low squating position to block a kick with two hands, than raise those arms to block a high chop?

Two hand block's? ...is this a good techniques to use on the streets?  

Aloha,  ( yes I am not a fan of Kata....just that it is require in our system to learn and teach them to our students)

PS: Is this a wise move?


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## jks9199 (Oct 30, 2007)

Or is it a wise interpretation of that move or set of movements?

Maybe that's where the problem lies?


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 30, 2007)

still learning said:


> Hello, The "X" block, double hand block to the kicks and above our heads...that you see in lot of "kata's? and some training...
> 
> If someone was to kick real hard and we try to block the kick with two hands techniques .....will our wrist or arms hurt and will we be able to Block hits to our open "head"?..after blocking the kicks?
> 
> ...


The more points of contact you have the better. Remember, its better not to be there, but as a last resort two hands are going to cover more area, and aid in lessoning the possible injury you would sustain using only one hand.
Sean


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## RED (Oct 30, 2007)

IMO
The "X" blocks to me are something that leads to another technique. I believe the forms / patterns are there to develope muscle memory, among other things, to help you react instinctively. Let's face it you won't drop into a straddle stance to punch someone on the street. The formal "X" block develops mucsle memory to permit you to block and counter with ...say a one leg take down. I beleive that if you where to block a turning/ round house kick with a one arm forearm block you are risking a broken bone but the idea is to develop muscles that will have the "twitch" reaction that is instinctive to self preservation. Usually ones insticnt is to put you hands up to protect yourself when you are attacted, The "X" block is something that can be used to trap a kick or punch. The formallities in the forms are there to develop your reaction and counters in a street scenerio. I don't mean to start a debate on forms but IMO the forms are not choriographed fights, but simply a way of practicing basic actions and reactions to develop the mucsles and mind.


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## tellner (Oct 30, 2007)

A very wise and frighteningly experienced Marine/highly decorated cop/martial artist said "Every time someone has both hands on you you've got a free shot." If you put both hands in line with one of his weapons at the same time your entire high line or entire low line is open. 

The classic X-block against the knife is criminally bad. Anyone who teaches it should be prosecuted. We know exactly what will happen and how long it will take for the defender to get stabbed multiple times, probably with both hands cut to shreds for good measure. They still teach it. I don't care how many black belts they have or what they could wallpaper with their rank certificates.


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## Danny T (Oct 30, 2007)

Is the X block movement actually a two armed "block" or is it simply a reference that could be either arm? How about a timing difference where the left arm slows the attack and the right parrys outward or vise versa? Maybe the left parrys first then the right follows up and continues the parry. Look deeply and with an open mind these examples should give insight into much more within the X block movement.

Danny T


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## tellner (Oct 31, 2007)

I'm well aware of the "double tap" and split timing uses of the motion. But almost nobody teaches them. Go to nine out of ten schools that have the movement in their forms, and you'll see a simultaneous thrusting of the arms into position as a block usually followed by relinquishing control long enough to strike or readjust for a lock. That's why I was careful about my choice of words.


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## still learning (Oct 31, 2007)

Hello, If we use this "X" block with two hands? .....mostly done in a lower position.....we will have time to defend against upper strikes?

Possible to grab the leg for defense?  

Just wondering? ...will we be able to take the FULL POWER of the KICK?

To me is seens like a dangerous block....because of the power of the kick and you are keeping your head an open tarket..can we recover quickly enough to still defend or counter?  

Would this technique fall in the area of learn about it? ....then put in back of other "questionable" techniques?

Aloha


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## charyuop (Oct 31, 2007)

The reasoning in my opinion has a big problem as a basic. "If I block a low kick with cross hands will I be able to block....".
If you get both hands busy on the same target, then use your body. Using the X block doesn't mean stay there and wait for the next strike to arrive. You can turn the leg using the block thus turning the opponent's body, or your can move to the opponent's side, or else you can step back drawing his leg with you...
Setting your mind in a way that say "Yay I blocked it, I survived, I won!" leaves open to certain defeat. Train your mind in a way that says "one gone, let's go with the second one immediately". Try to use a block as a way to gain advantage and use that advantage, if you wait too long the advantage is gone forever.


Just my 2 cents...


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## MJS (Oct 31, 2007)

Great thread!  Yes, the majority of the time, when this block is taught, we see it done just as its been described by the OP...someone dropping their weight into the downward X to block the kick.  For myself, if I'm going to block a kick, its going to be a deflection with my arm, while I move offline.  

I was at a Dillman seminar a few years ago and this block came up.  I can't recall the exact use that he gave, but I think it may have been some sort of application off of a grab.  You're using the other arm to hit points, so it forms the X look.  Again, don't hold me to that, as I cant recall exactly.

As for using this against a knife or club...I think that Danny brought up a great point.  We do this type of movement for some of the knife and club defenses in Arnis, however, as he said, its not a simultaneous movement.  In other words...for a striaght knife thrust, one method would be to initially deflect with the right, as we move offline, then the left comes over, forming that X and then we move into a lock.  To think that against an over head stab or straight thrust, that you're going to just do that X block with much success, you're going to be in for a rude surprise.

Like many things in the arts, looks can be deceiving.  Certain moves may not be what they initially appear to be.  

Mike


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## Laurentkd (Oct 31, 2007)

still learning said:


> Hello, If we use this "X" block with two hands? .....mostly done in a lower position.....we will have time to defend against upper strikes?
> 
> Possible to grab the leg for defense?
> 
> ...


 
I believe any technique that uses a hand to block a kick, shouldn't really be thought of as a "block" but as a "deflection." If your kick and my block are both coming at each other directly, the stronger leg is going to win. But if my block is traveling, say perpendicular to the direction of your kick, I can deflect the energy of your kick and effectively evade getting hit.  The difference is how you use the technique.
Hope that helps!


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## Cirdan (Oct 31, 2007)

If you meet a kick with full power behind it head on with an x block you are going to get hurt.

How about meeting it before it is at full power?


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## punisher73 (Oct 31, 2007)

The word for block is "Uke", the same word that we use when we discuss who is on the recieving end of our technique.  Uke means, receive.  I don't think these were meant so much as "blocks" to stop something as they are as positions to accept and receive the other's technique.

I have seen the "x-block" used against a kick, but it was used before the kick developed it's power (moving into the kick) and as soon as contact was made the hands transitioned into an ankle break. I guess, if you trained to do this and used it, there probably wouldn't be a large concern for a head attack coming in as a follow up on the attacker at that point.  But, if you just use it to "stop" the kick than there would be a need to protect the upper level from a follow up.


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## howard (Oct 31, 2007)

tellner said:


> A very wise and frighteningly experienced Marine/highly decorated cop/martial artist said "Every time someone has both hands on you you've got a free shot." If you put both hands in line with one of his weapons at the same time your entire high line or entire low line is open.


Excellent point.  I try to stress this to people all the time when teaching locking and throwing techniques that occupy both of your hands.  You have to position yourself to avoid or negate the inevitable strike from your opponent.



tellner said:


> The classic X-block against the knife is criminally bad. Anyone who teaches it should be prosecuted. We know exactly what will happen and how long it will take for the defender to get stabbed multiple times, probably with both hands cut to shreds for good measure. They still teach it. I don't care how many black belts they have or what they could wallpaper with their rank certificates.




I definitely agree with the gist of this.  X-blocks against a knife are a terrible idea IMO.


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## morph4me (Oct 31, 2007)

I think that an X block is a misnomer. If I use an X block I use it more as a deflection with options, as I make contact with the X I, let one hand colapse so the strike or kick slides along the outside of the remaiing arm. The weapon is deflected outside my body and the other hand is availble for a strike or controlling technique.


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## CuongNhuka (Oct 31, 2007)

Or, more likely, the problem is you have become so close minded to the concept of application that all you can come up with it something to surface based. This reminds me of a story, the other day I was firing a pellet rifle, and had a few that went off slightly (breathers). Srgt joked 'It was the rifle, wasn't it, -my name here-'. I replyed with 'No, the rifle is great, it was just the idiot holding it'


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## Kacey (Oct 31, 2007)

It depends on the application you're using/teaching - I've learned several for X-block, including a deflection.  Most X-blocks that I know require that the person blocking remove the target by stepping out of line with the attack to work properly - although that doesn't always happen in the tul, and has to be taught separately.


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## still learning (Oct 31, 2007)

Hello, Great points above!  If one can recover from a full Power kick or meet it before it is thrown to it max and is able to counter makes alot of sense.

Just that will it work most of the time? ...using both hands? and will we be fast enough to counter his next counter attack?

Is this a smart technique to learn?  ...for myself....one never see's this in Mma's, kicking boxing, thai boxing,the cage fighing, blocking with two hands.

Rule of thumb? ...if you see it use alot? ...than this works..if not you have to ask why?

Aloha


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## newGuy12 (Oct 31, 2007)

Iain Abernethy shows the meaning of the "lower x-block":

http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/BasicBunkaiPart3.asp

We see that it is not just a block to a kick.


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## MJS (Nov 1, 2007)

newGuy12 said:


> Iain Abernethy shows the meaning of the "lower x-block":
> 
> http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/BasicBunkaiPart3.asp
> 
> We see that it is not just a block to a kick.


 
Yes, see what can happen when one really understands the meaning of kata and the real meaning of exactly what you're doing.


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## Cirdan (Nov 1, 2007)

S_L the reason you don`t see many classic X blocks in cage fighting might be that the more nasty applications involves groin strikes. Which of course is pointless with your opponent wearing a cup.

But what do I know.. I don`t watch cage fighting.


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## still learning (Nov 1, 2007)

newGuy12 said:


> Iain Abernethy shows the meaning of the "lower x-block":
> 
> http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/BasicBunkaiPart3.asp
> 
> We see that it is not just a block to a kick.


 
Hello, In most of the other "Kata's" ...the movement before and after does not lead to this choke or lock of the upper body.

I have a very old "KATA" tape done, by Mr Kenneth Funikoshi...showing step by step and with his students helping to show what the attacks,blocks and movement means step by step...(film in Hawaii on a beach park call "Magic Island,on the Island of Oahu where city of Honolulu is located.)

The "X" block is showing a block to the kick and there is a counter to it!
(Shotokan Karate)  Gichin Funikoshi of Japan train "Kenneth" ....I will need to review the tape to find the exact Shotokan Kata's...it is use in!

For our Universal Kempo...It is in our Pinion Kempo Kata five.....

Please check with your own Sensi's for there thoughts on this "X" blocks....is it a block to the kicks or another hidden movement.....

According to Mr Kenneth Funikoshi ....Kata...it is a block to the kick!

Aloha,


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## jks9199 (Nov 1, 2007)

still learning said:


> Hello, In most of the other "Kata's" ...the movement before and after does not lead to this choke or lock of the upper body.
> 
> I have a very old "KATA" tape done, by Mr Kenneth Funikoshi...showing step by step and with his students helping to show what the attacks,blocks and movement means step by step...(film in Hawaii on a beach park call "Magic Island,on the Island of Oahu where city of Honolulu is located.)
> 
> ...


Just maybe...

It's both.  And more.

Many moves in forms have a straightforward explanation, in the fantasy of the form.  They also have more hidden explanations in the function of that form.  Just 'cause the "official" interpretation is a punch to the solar plexus -- that doesn't mean that you can't use the exact same punch to hit Shaq in the groin, right?


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## Sukerkin (Nov 1, 2007)

The one time I recall using an X-block in sparring was a last ditch defence against the last of a series of spinning and jumping kicks where my opponent surprised me by both continuing to press home his attack and by reversing the direction of his spinning hook kick.

The block worked just fine but had the unfortunate effect of absorbing all the power of the kick into me, thus proffering me an inpromptu flying lesson backwards onto a table tennis table (which promptly collapsed ).

In Lau, we trained to usually use the crossed wrist block against kicks that we have moved off the line of.  It allows you to prevent the kick from changing direction into you and also allows you to take initiative by seizing the leg and indulging in several forms of close range nastiness.  My favourite in sparring (where smacking someone in the groin with a hammer fist or a knife hand across the throat is somewhat frowned upon) was to raise and push the captured leg whilst sweeping the other.


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## newGuy12 (Nov 1, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> Just maybe...It's both.  And more.



*Yes!!!*

Ask an American Kenpo Man about this!  GM Ed Parker said that he got insight from watching motions in reverse on a film.

Every block is a strike, every strike is a block.  How is it so?  Maybe I don't know how it is so, but I know that it IS so.  These meanings are "hidden".  It is the "occult" (hidden) nature of these things.  They are deep.  What I mean is, they have one superficial meaning, and then OTHER meanings as well.

Where are the American Kenpo people when you need them???  They can explain these things!


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## still learning (Nov 3, 2007)

newGuy12 said:


> *Yes!!!*
> 
> Ask an American Kenpo Man about this! GM Ed Parker said that he got insight from watching motions in reverse on a film.
> 
> ...


 
Hello, NOT sure if this could help you with some answers here...? Ed Parker was saying the "way you block" ..should be hard like a strike, and when you strike...it can act like a block! by stopping the person from farther attacks.

Karate is known for a saying "one punch..one kill" ...this is just a way of saying our punches or blocks need to be that strong and that one punch or block should end the fight! That is the goal of every karate student to reach.

In Shotokan training there is alot of very Hard and strong blocking and punches. Deep powerful stances in the training.

The hidden meanings in Kata? .....UM? ....could it be just that instead of punching to the head? ...one can change it to a knife hand strike to the throat? 

The "X" block is just a Block with two hands and nothing more? ...like if something is falling on our heads....many of us raise both hands to block or protect our heads ....kinda like a natural movements ..base on experiences of things falling on us?

OK guys...this is just my thoughts on this.....my feeling on this? ....

Aloha, ( from another planet) ....X does not equal "Y" ....or does it?

PS: Hidden .....something you hide? ..."Y" would Karate Master's who made the Kata? ....hide something from their students? ..and not explain the hidden meanings? after all those years training under their Master's?

X usually marks the spot on many kata maps ....mines has several x's...um? ...the big X vs little x? .....what does this mean? just kidding here..

Hidden meanings in Kata...something that was told to us...each generations now past this on? .....how come by now? ....there is still a mystery...with so many Masters' and Professors, and computers....we can't fiqure this Hidden meanings?

maybe? ...there is NONE? ...........OK could be?

Like when we raise our hands with palms facing out...(an aggressor want to beat us up) .....our hands up and palms out ...means we surrender to you...we do not want a fight ........

Yet the hands up and palms out is : READY TO DEFEND AND STRIKE QUICKLY....IS this the hidden meaning of this technique? Possible to finger poke the other person or straight knife hand to the throat? or push the attack hands down to open up for an attack? 

Can this be the same? ......NOT?

Pretending is a good thing.....(like smiling ...can have hidden meanings)

Remember those old storys...it takes only 14 muscles to smile and 72 muscles to frown.....better to smile because you will use less muscles.....( work those other muscles...will only increase having less friends?)


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## still learning (Nov 3, 2007)

Hello, Just another thought on "Hidden" parts of Kata's?

It could also mean certain parts of the Kata's may have a duel or muliple reasons that can be apply...?

Aloha,  .....Kata will always be questionable?


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## Brian S (Nov 3, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> Or is it a wise interpretation of that move or set of movements?
> 
> Maybe that's where the problem lies?


 
 Exactly.


  I believe it 's (lower x-"block") application is more along the lines of grappling or dealing with a downed or bent over opponent than stand up blocking. 


 When dealing with blocks I think the term "uke" is the problem. 

 X-block = Juji uke, uke means to receive.

 "block" is a sucky Americanized misenterpretation of the word "uke."

block = an unspecified parry, jam, guard, check, forearm strikes, etc.

vs.

'block' = the sucky kind of hard blocking a straght punch, downward strike, etc...

 Therefore, there are no blocks in kata.

 Why would you need to conform to a specific technique to block? Why are there so many different ways to block? There's not, there is only misenterpretation and misunderstanding of the applications. That makes sucky karate in my opinion.


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## Brian S (Nov 3, 2007)

newGuy12 said:


> *Yes!!!*
> 
> Ask an American Kenpo Man about this! GM Ed Parker said that he got insight from watching motions in reverse on a film.
> 
> ...


 

 I think that is partially right ,but that is also partially misguided as well.

 The thinking along these lines is that when you "block" you are actually striking your opponent in a hard way to injure him. "BE TOUGHER" "HIT THEM HARD WITH THE BLOCK!!" not.

 A "block" is not a block at all. It is a strike, a joint lock, a throw, etc, but never a block. 

 uke means to receive.


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## Cirdan (Nov 3, 2007)

still learning said:


> Hello, Just another thought on "Hidden" parts of Kata's?
> 
> It could also mean certain parts of the Kata's may have a duel or muliple reasons that can be apply...?


 


Finally. 

And we have only tried to tell you this a few hundred times.

It is all parts, all sequences, every single tiny movement not just a part here and there. Now you see the wall of the box. Take your own advice and break through it, step outside.

The next step is realising the principles of movement are more important than induvidual techniques. This is what makes your art flow from the kata.

(edit) VERY good points Brian_S!


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## newGuy12 (Nov 3, 2007)

Cirdan said:


> The next step is realising the principles of movement are more important than induvidual techniques. This is what makes your art flow from the kata.



That statement carries a lot of weight.  That says a lot!  It sounds like something Bruce Lee would say!

Sometimes, too a block is a strike like this --> I have a high block.  If I take that same motion and I give a forearm strike to the throat, what is that motion then?  It is now a strike.

Aloha --> when the computer fails to make the dial-up connection, sometimes the error "no dial tone" actually means "no dial tone"!!!  In that case, there is no big mystery.  Other times, its not so simple!


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## MJS (Nov 3, 2007)

still learning said:


> The hidden meanings in Kata? .....UM? ....could it be just that instead of punching to the head? ...one can change it to a knife hand strike to the throat?
> 
> The "X" block is just a Block with two hands and nothing more? ...like if something is falling on our heads....many of us raise both hands to block or protect our heads ....kinda like a natural movements ..base on experiences of things falling on us?


 
No, thats not correct.  This is and has been my point as well as a few others.  This is showing me at least that you don't understand kata at all.  You just said an X block is just that..a block and nothing more.  Yet, Newguy12 posted a link to Ian Abernathy(sp) showing the meaning of an X block and I spoke of a Dillman seminar where he showed another application for the X.  




> PS: Hidden .....something you hide? ..."Y" would Karate Master's who made the Kata? ....hide something from their students? ..and not explain the hidden meanings? after all those years training under their Master's?
> 
> X usually marks the spot on many kata maps ....mines has several x's...um? ...the big X vs little x? .....what does this mean? just kidding here..
> 
> ...


 
Why should our teachers show us everything?  Should we not work to find things on our own?  Doc Chapel has said the same thing about "Big Red" which is the American Kenpo book that lists all of the SD techniques.  It is not a complete breakdown of everything.  Its a guide.  Just like our teachers guide us, but they expect us to find things for ourselves.

Its just like Arnis.  I took a lesson a few weeks ago.  My teacher was showing me things, and it was amazing how similar they were to other things, yet I never put 2 and 2 together until then.  You see, I already knew what he was showing me, I already had the movements, as they were already contained in other things, yet I didn't see it until then.


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## newGuy12 (Nov 3, 2007)

MJS said:


> Doc Chapel has said the same thing about "Big Red" which is the American Kenpo book that lists all of the SD techniques.  It is not a complete breakdown of everything.  Its a guide.



I wonder how big "Big Red" would be if you stuffed in all of the known knowledge about all of the "what if" scenarios that have been studied about all of the techniques?  One thing is for sure, it would be one big set of books!


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## MJS (Nov 4, 2007)

newGuy12 said:


> I wonder how big "Big Red" would be if you stuffed in all of the known knowledge about all of the "what if" scenarios that have been studied about all of the techniques? One thing is for sure, it would be one big set of books!


 
Yes, that would be a huge library of books.  I'm sure if it came down to it, one book may contain only a few techniques, depending on how in depth the breakdown was.


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## still learning (Nov 4, 2007)

Hello, I am amaze how many people believe our "OLD Masters who made the "Kata"s and taught Karate/Martial arts to their students and ...

HAD HIDDEN Techniques in them....and shield them from this knowledge..not telling them...about it?

"X" Block...look at the movements before and after the technique....it is ONLY A BLOCK......with two hands....many of Katas had movements that is very specfic...and weird in a way to modern fighting or may not be practical for todays defense.

Because someone mention there is "hidden" things....Today everyone is looking at Kata as a PUZZLE? .....Why?

Like looking into clouds...IT is just a cloud...yet we see horses,faces,and other things....it is still a cloud in the sky!

Kata did not come from Big Red or England where these guys are saying what they see or do not tell?  They may make their own ones..and confuse everyone with hidden stuffs.

THE MASTERS WHO MADE THE KATA HAD NOT INTENTIONS OF HIDING TECHNIQUES WITH-IN THE kATA'S......WHY WOULD THEY IF THEY DID AND NOT TELL THEIR OWN STUDENTS?

Auto mechanics has many tools some can be use for more than one purpose or other ways to apply.....yet there are specfic use of a certain tool than cannot no other way....WHY WOULD TEACHERS OF MECHANIC HIDE...all the uses?

OR any other teachers?  Who felt the need to teach and help there own students learn?  WHY HIDE HIDDEN THINGS TO YOUR OWN STUDENTS?

A block is a block and strike is a strike....yet each block is taught to be like a strike....and a strike could act as a block.....

It reminds me of my younger days...I use to believe everything the teachers told us and what non-fiction books said....I really believe all those written materials....

Than one day...friends,others tells you what is said by teachers and books...IS NOT ALWAYS CORRECT!  (as young kids growing up) and you find out for YOURSELF! THIS IS TRUE!

I do not believe people like Gichin, and others who taught the first kata's made hidden stuffs in them....they just left it out..because of the dangerous techniques or it could be change to be more than just a punch..it could change to be grab, or whatever instead....THIS IS WHAT IS MEANT BY hidden...today only!

NOT SECRETS TO BE DISCOVER LATER! ....Aloha


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## Makalakumu (Nov 4, 2007)

SL - Because they said so. The Masters who created the Kata told us that the technique that we are talking about really was a choke, a grab, an entrance to an armbar, a double strike, a clinch, a joint lock, etc. 

Calling it an "x-block" is misleading. Why were we mislead, I can't tell you. All I can say is that continuing to call the technique an "x-block" propagates this misunderstanding. It demonstrates that you were trained WRONG in karate. So was I. So were a great many others...until a few of us asked the same questions you are asking and then went back to the source while they were still living. 

Now we know the truth. It never was an x block. It never was intended to be an x block. And if you don't think an "x block" is an effective technique, my advice is to find a teacher that can show you what it really is.

Look at people like this...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...=15&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=2

That is what you really can do with "x-block". Aren't you at all curious about that? Can you keep saying that this or that technique is ineffective after you've seen that? You just don't know what is possible and if you really want to understand, you can find out if you want to. 

One last vid to demonstrate what techniques really are from kata...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...=15&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=2

Look at these videos and wonder why you don't know this stuff. That is a very important question. 

Also, make an effort to learn the truth. You'll greatly decrease your level of frustration that way...and maybe you'll find some worth in something you discounted.


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## Kacey (Nov 4, 2007)

Still_Learning, masters are just that - people who have devoted their life to understanding the intricacies of a martial art (or they should be, anyway).  Differences are good - they make the world much more interesting and prevent boredom... and differing perspectives are, after all, _why_ most people choose to discuss things. You yourself started this thread to discuss "The two hand "X" block against a kick?"  Your initial post included this description and question:



still learning said:


> We have this in our Pinion 5 Kempo kata where we turn into low squating position to block a kick with two hands, than raise those arms to block a high chop?
> 
> Two hand block's? ...is this a good techniques to use on the streets?



To return to a discussion of x-blocks, I know several varieties - X-pressing, X-rising, X-checking, with either closed fists or knifehands - and their applications vary based on how and where they are used.  I find X-checking to be useful for certain kicks - especially reverse turning kick, which, for those who are not familiar with our terminology, involves turning backward and swinging the entire leg completely around to the front, a kick that relies heavily on momentum and is often referred to as "the baseball bat kick", because you swing your leg like a baseball bat.  If you catch this type of kick before it comes all the way around and has built up its momentum, it is possible to deflect the kick with an X-checking block by catching the kick at an angle.  Is it something I'd do all the time?  Probably not... but when I'm trying to stop a leg swinging at me full speed, full extension, and aimed at my upper torso or head, I really don't think 1 arm is going to stop it.  So if I can't duck or evade such a kick, then yes, X-checking block is one of my options.  Is it likely to occur in a street fight?  Probably not... but how many people in a street fight will use such a kick anyway?  

There are plenty of techniques I have learned that have no apparent/immediate application to street fighting - and this is one of them.  I don't generally use it in sparring, and therefore am unlikely to use it in a street fight, should I ever find myself involved in one.  However, learning to apply this, and other seemingly-useless techniques, has taught me a great deal about how the body moves and reacts, how to use angles, how to move in multiple directions, and how to judge the effect of my actions on another person - all of them quite useful concepts for self-defense.


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## jks9199 (Nov 4, 2007)

Maybe the creators of the various kata didn't deliberately hide things in them.  Instead, they developed a way to pass along a combination of applications in a practical shorthand...  And a means of analyzing and assessing the principles of their system at the same time?

You can fight with our basic forms directly.  Our first form starts with a forward full step, an upward block, a pivot, and ends the set with a punch.  The most basic application taught is that you're blocking a strike to your head, and counterpunching.  But... change the timing a hair, put the emphasis on the covering hand, not the block, and it starts to morph into a throw.  Or, with another slightly different emphasis, it becomes an offensive move!  But -- the "essence" of the form is neither; it's the concept, demonstrated in different ways in each set, of defending yourself with immediate counters and without really giving up ground.

So... if one student asks me "is that set blocking a punch to the head", I can honestly say yes.  But I might tell another student that it's a way to set up a throw...  and still be honest.

Some of our more advanced forms have several "correct" interpretations.  That doesn't make any of them wrong, nor does it change the basic movements.  It's just how they're used.


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## Cirdan (Nov 5, 2007)

still learning said:


> Like looking into clouds...IT is just a cloud...yet we see horses,faces,and other things....it is still a cloud in the sky!


 
Be like the Cloud my friend


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## MJS (Nov 5, 2007)

still learning said:


> Hello, I am amaze how many people believe our "OLD Masters who made the "Kata"s and taught Karate/Martial arts to their students and ...
> 
> HAD HIDDEN Techniques in them....and shield them from this knowledge..not telling them...about it?
> 
> ...


 
Sir, if that is what you want to think, thats fine.  I've explained many times, but you don't listen.  You're looking at the X as just an X, yet, there are many variations and applications that can be applies, but you don't want to look for them.  I wish you well in your training.



> Kata did not come from Big Red or England where these guys are saying what they see or do not tell? They may make their own ones..and confuse everyone with hidden stuffs.


 
I'm thinking you have no idea what I am referring to when I say "Big Red."  



> THE MASTERS WHO MADE THE KATA HAD NOT INTENTIONS OF HIDING TECHNIQUES WITH-IN THE kATA'S......WHY WOULD THEY IF THEY DID AND NOT TELL THEIR OWN STUDENTS?


 
And you know this how?? Did you ask them personally?  Were you there to study with them?

Your issue is that people with much more experience than you, are trying to explain things to you, but you refuse to listen, and keep repeating yourself over and over and over and over and over.  I still want to know why you think that they didn't hide anything from their students, in hopes that their students would do something you refuse to do...think for yourself.

Mike


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## Brian S (Nov 5, 2007)

still learning,

Did you read my posts here?



> When dealing with blocks I think the term "uke" is the problem.
> 
> X-block = Juji uke, uke means to receive.
> 
> ...


 
?? Leads me to question if you are learning at all, much less still???

Many posters here have gone round and round with you about very similar subjects, yet rather than reading and "learning" you remain argumentative. Many of the posters here are long time practitioners of the very things you question,yet you do not "learn."

You can't find the answer to your questions on a discussion board(at least not to your satisfaction)it's a poor place to ask things that need to be shown. Inside the dojo and from your instructor is where you will find the answers. After doing what many people here have been doing for years. 

Maybe you can change your screen name to still_arguing.


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## still learning (Nov 5, 2007)

Hello, Gichin Funikoshi teaches his son an how to use ''X" block in a Kata

Years later...His son Kenneth Funkoshi teaches in Hawaii and makes "KATAS" on video tapes showing what each movement is doing with several of his students attacking on each part of the "KATA"

The "X block is shown as a low block to a KICK? ....NO OTHER EXPLANTIONS (on tape).......JUST A BLOCK TO A KICK!

What are we who have these tapes to believe? ......people who years later are NOW experts NO LONGING BELIEVES?  FUNIKOSHI actual videos doing the techniques is suppose to be something else?

We are not talking about chinese or korean or any other....the kata that was show us (shotokan katas').....using the "X" blocks!

That is one of the reasons many people are not FANS of Kata's ....people  believe anyone exept for those who made the Kata's? .....it purpose and intent......has loss it true purpose..............like sheeps....many follow without questions........of their teachers..........

IF Kata was so successful WHY do other sports, fighting schools, MMA...follow them?

Kata many of you do not know the difference between Kata training and practice training....each has it own meaning...like boxing training is training NOT A KATA? ......Kata referrel to a set of movements made by karate masters manly from Okininwa who learn a few things from China....

To teach techniques with movements (Heian or pinon) PRECISE SETS. REFER to Karate ONLY!

Boxing or others do not call them Kata's? .....Jap, Jap, punch, duck, weave jap, punch...IS NOT CALL KATA'S!   JUST PUNCHING DRILLS

WAR can be hazardous.......even if it is not a consider a war?
War of words...and interpretations....each has their own beliefs......NO win-win ever!

Something as simple as expert Karate master (Funikoshi) showing how and it purpose......of the "X" block....to some cannot believe it!...just a block to a kick? 

Aloha  

PS: Now for the PUNCH? ..in a kata? ......is it something else too? ...maybe high five?


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## MJS (Nov 5, 2007)

still learning said:


> Hello, Gichin Funikoshi teaches his son an how to use ''X" block in a Kata
> 
> Years later...His son Kenneth Funkoshi teaches in Hawaii and makes "KATAS" on video tapes showing what each movement is doing with several of his students attacking on each part of the "KATA"
> 
> The "X block is shown as a low block to a KICK? ....NO OTHER EXPLANTIONS (on tape).......JUST A BLOCK TO A KICK!


 
So...because YOU never see any other explaination, YOU assume that is the end of what it means?  Like I said...oh, I lost how many times already...why should someone teach the student everything without the student ever having to put any effort in?  



> What are we who have these tapes to believe? ......people who years later are NOW experts NO LONGING BELIEVES? FUNIKOSHI actual videos doing the techniques is suppose to be something else?


 
So, because this is all YOU saw on the video, YOU are assuming thats all there is.  Well, what about the people on here who are trying to tell you that there is more to it?




> That is one of the reasons many people are not FANS of Kata's ....people believe anyone exept for those who made the Kata's? .....it purpose and intent......has loss it true purpose..............like sheeps....many follow without questions........of their teachers..........


 
No, the reason is, because people refuse to think for themselves.  They don't want to explore anything, or do any work for themselves.  Instead, they want their teachers to do it all.



> IF Kata was so successful WHY do other sports, fighting schools, MMA...follow them?


 
Didn't we already go down this road in another thread?  You need to go and re-read those posts.  I'm afraid you don't and sadly never will understand kata.



> Kata many of you do not know the difference between Kata training and practice training....each has it own meaning...like boxing training is training NOT A KATA? ......Kata referrel to a set of movements made by karate masters manly from Okininwa who learn a few things from China....


 
Please don't say what I know and do not know, when you yourself do not know the meaning of kata.  




> Boxing or others do not call them Kata's? .....Jap, Jap, punch, duck, weave jap, punch...IS NOT CALL KATA'S! JUST PUNCHING DRILLS


 
Again, go back and reread the other thread.  We've discussed this already.




> Something as simple as expert Karate master (Funikoshi) showing how and it purpose......of the "X" block....to some cannot believe it!...just a block to a kick?


 
Again, you're watching a video, assuming that there is nothing more than whats shown.  



> Aloha
> 
> PS: Now for the PUNCH? ..in a kata? ......is it something else too? ...maybe high five?


 
Yup, you got it..its a high five.


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## jks9199 (Nov 5, 2007)

still learning said:


> Hello, Gichin Funikoshi teaches his son an how to use ''X" block in a Kata
> 
> Years later...His son Kenneth Funkoshi teaches in Hawaii and makes "KATAS" on video tapes showing what each movement is doing with several of his students attacking on each part of the "KATA"
> 
> ...


Heaven help me... I'm going to try this again.

OK... Gichin Funakoshi teaches his son one explanation of a kata, this is later recorded in a film/book/video/series of Etch-A-Sketch drawings.  

Is it just maybe possible that he taught others, that weren't put into the book for reasons that range from complexity to simple lack of room, or even deliberately hiding some of the interpretations for those who won't look for them?  If I demonstrate the use of a rising block against a hammer punch...  then you can't use that block against, say, an axe kick or a punch to the face, right?  That's what you're suggesting.  It's wrong -- but it's what you keep suggesting.

Let me again use personal experience.  I've had the privilege of receiving instruction in my styles black belt level form, the Line Form, from our chief instructor on several occasions.  He's taught several of the sets with the same movements, but different interpretations.  I've also had several different interpretations shown by different senior black belts in our system.  On another occasion, one of my instructors demonstrated one set of that form with about 10 different interpretations and applications in about 20 minutes.  Either there is more to the form than the surface movements... or these folks are either too dumb or too careless to remember the interpretation from one moment to the next or just really good at making stuff up on the fly.

I think you can guess where I come down.  Each movement has multiple applications, and most kata/forms/hyung/patterns are simply shorthands for theories and tactics and methods, not explicit applications.

You might consider it something like the difference between learning one song on a musical instrument, and actually learning how to play the instrument.


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## Cirdan (Nov 6, 2007)

Gichin Funakoshi is also known to have said the following:

_"You may train for a long time, but if you merely move your hands and feet and jump up and down like a puppet, learning karate is not very different from learning a dance. You will never have reached the heart of the matter; you will have failed to grasp the quintessence of karate-do."_

_"To practice kata is not to memorize an order. You must find the kata that work for you, understand them, digest them and stick with them for life."_

I suggest you take his advice still_learning


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## Sukerkin (Nov 6, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> I think you can guess where I come down. Each movement has multiple applications, and most kata/forms/hyung/patterns are simply shorthands for theories and tactics and methods, not explicit applications.
> 
> You might consider it something like the difference between learning one song on a musical instrument, and actually learning how to play the instrument.


 
That is one of the best precis of the core of martial arts training I've ever read - well done that man and consider your insights safe for posterity ... because I shall nick them and pass them off as my own .

Oh all right, I shall, of course, give due credit ... rumours that that's just because you carry a gun for a living are vile slanders :lol:.


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## onibaku (Nov 6, 2007)

I think evading would be better than take on the kick


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## morph4me (Nov 6, 2007)

still learning said:


> Hello, Gichin Funikoshi teaches his son an how to use ''X" block in a Kata
> 
> Years later...His son Kenneth Funkoshi teaches in Hawaii and makes "KATAS" on video tapes showing what each movement is doing with several of his students attacking on each part of the "KATA"
> 
> ...


 
I have been in the martial arts for over 20 years. If I were to tape what I learned in that time it would take alot more than one video, and if I could learn what I don't know it would take a library of videos. one explanation on one tape isn't the end all meaning of a technique, my explanation of an X block would be completely different and no less valid than anyone else's



still learning said:


> We are not talking about chinese or korean or any other....the kata that was show us (shotokan katas').....using the "X" blocks!


 
It's amazing to me that an instructor can put all the information he has about a particular technique on one video tape. I'm sure that there are people on this board who can take one technique and do a two day seminar and still not cover everything they know about it.



still learning said:


> That is one of the reasons many people are not FANS of Kata's ....people believe anyone exept for those who made the Kata's? .....it purpose and intent......has loss it true purpose..............like sheeps....many follow without questions........of their teachers..........
> 
> IF Kata was so successful WHY do other sports, fighting schools, MMA...follow them?


 
Maybe because kata is a teaching tool, designed to build muscle memory and give structure to the techniques they are teaching.



still learning said:


> Kata many of you do not know the difference between Kata training and practice training....each has it own meaning...like boxing training is training NOT A KATA? ......Kata referrel to a set of movements made by karate masters manly from Okininwa who learn a few things from China....
> 
> To teach techniques with movements (Heian or pinon) PRECISE SETS. REFER to Karate ONLY!?
> 
> Boxing or others do not call them Kata's? .....Jap, Jap, punch, duck, weave jap, punch...IS NOT CALL KATA'S! JUST PUNCHING DRILLS?


 
I drive a Honda accord, my friend drives a Volkswagon Passat, my aunt drives a Mercury Sable but they are all cars, different makes and models but all cars. If I eat Lo Mein or Spagetti I'm still eating noodles.  Kata's and drills are not called the same thing, but they accomplish the same goals. It 



still learning said:


> WAR can be hazardous.......even if it is not a consider a war?
> War of words...and interpretations....each has their own beliefs......NO win-win ever!?


 
Drills can teach the same skills as kata, even if not considered a kata. 



still learning said:


> Something as simple as expert Karate master (Funikoshi) showing how and it purpose......of the "X" block....to some cannot believe it!...just a block to a kick? ?


 
There are expert karateka on this board who have said that they know of other applications, yet you choose not to believe them

Aloha 



still learning said:


> PS: Now for the PUNCH? ..in a kata? ......is it something else too? ...maybe high five?


 
Learning is much easier with an open mind


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## MJS (Nov 6, 2007)

Well, avoiding/deflecting is my first pick as well.  Now, slightly related to this, if we look at, say, an overhead club attack or one coming in from the side, you're going to ideally want to stop that momentum before it gets too far.  Lets take the overhead strike.  Person draws back to swing the club.  Your best shot at defense, IMO, is going to be before the club gets more than half way.  

Now, looking at a kick.  Opponents right leg is back, and they begin their kick towards you.  I would think that the same prinicples would apply with the kick as with the downward strike.  If you intend on stopping it before it gains too much momentum, you're going to have to really lean forward, which can cause you to a) be off balance and b) forcing you to lean.  

Maybe I'm just not picturing this correctly because I dont have anyone here with me to try this out on, but in any case, this is what leads me to believe that there are other applications aside from blocking a kick.

Mike


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## jks9199 (Nov 6, 2007)

Sukerkin said:


> That is one of the best precis of the core of martial arts training I've ever read - well done that man and consider your insights safe for posterity ... because I shall nick them and pass them off as my own .
> 
> Oh all right, I shall, of course, give due credit ... rumours that that's just because you carry a gun for a living are vile slanders :lol:.


Steal...  er... borrow away.

I generally figure if I say something smart, I probably copied it from someone else anyway!  If I say something wise -- I definitely obtained it...

(But what's the concern about carrying a gun for a living?  Don't you play with long sharp things?  They scare me more than bullets!)


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## still learning (Nov 6, 2007)

Hello, The controversy will go on forever...............is he running away when he runs or is he running to get help? ...or running to return with a weapon?  

Like Kata's.....NO one knows which or why he is running?  Each movements in the kata can be many things.....ONLY TO THE PERSON WHO IS USING IT!

when taught to use it as an "X" block ....to a kick...then that is what it is at that time.......one can change it to whatever they want to later on from an  "X" to a "Y" or W, Z, or A or J.....

Funikoshi....taught it to be a double hand block to the KICK ........NO other reason here...just one way to block a kick in this particular Kata...in others he uses the  one hand blocks and parry blocks to kicks too.....

Funikoshi....knows the the kick can be block by many ways including steping away......

Some of you refuse to believe this is 100% rule here.(X) block...there are many  other Katas from Funikoshi....this one teaches the X block in this one....

To bad we cannot ask the people who made the Kata's for the true answers...

I am not sure if "Kenneth Funikoshi" is still alive? ...but I would like to here his thoughts on this? ..

.....Aloha  ...martial arts has many paths and beliefs...some are?  and others are some?    ....the controversy will go on and on.....

PS: would you like to go fishing instead?  .....how you fish? .....we like the hook....more than the X block....


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## MJS (Nov 6, 2007)

I think we should take this thread in another direction.  If you look at my post #49, I commented on the use of the X block for a kick.  Perhaps we should be asking ourselves if this block is the best choice?  IMO, if we're going to execute something, I'd think we'd want to do something that has a pretty good chance of working, with little to no injury to ourselves.  

So, despite what someone had shown in a video on kata, I think its more productive to discuss the best application.


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## Cirdan (Nov 7, 2007)

s_l it soulds like you think Funakoshi invented the Pinan, or Heian as he called them. This is not the case. Also, you will find a lot of different interpertations in the varius styles using the Pinan Kata. For instance students of Shotokan and Wado are not likely to block (or receive) the same way. There are no "true" anwsers, things just are what they are. In this case, movement.


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## newGuy12 (Nov 7, 2007)

I for one would think that what we are calling a "low x block" would be one of the *LAST* ways to deal with a low front kick.

I'll add two things:

1)  The forms sure do "feel good" when you do them, no matter what the application.

2) You are not joking -- after seeing that video of the knife attack that was posted the other day, I would think that (as long as the attacker was CLOSE IN) I would rather have a gun pulled on me than a knife!  What's more, we don't even wish to think about a sword!  The bladed weapons are no joke!  Not to be taken lightly!


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## gblnking (Nov 7, 2007)

I trained for years in traditional Crap Fu Do, at a school that not only recongnized itself as a "McDojo" but it hardily proclaimed that it wanted to be the McDonalds of martial arts. A school on every street corner was the motto of the grossly over priced instructors training course. As I read this post I reflect on my fabulous < cough cough> training and remeber the "Eagle Block" (X-Block). Taught as a block for a kick. I remember watching two over zealous twenty something male students free sparring without protective gear which was highly recommended by the school to keep things real. One student delivered a fast front snap kick while the other decided to attempt the "Eagle Block" technique. Needless to say it didn't have quite the result that we all thought and had been taught that it would. In fact it left the blocker with the middle, ring, and little finger broken. Not only were the fingers broken but the kick broke through the defense and because the blocker leaned forward slightly to execute the manuver he took a foot to the mug as well. 
I guess as I have matured over the years and have done my due diligence in finding good schools the greatest lesson that I've learned is that all styles have a few bad moves that for some idiotic reason they hang on to them in the name of tradition. Or better yet they'll give you a load of bull about the technique having a higher purpose that one day you might be entitled to learn. Any school that claims to have super secret techniques only taught to certain students, or that there are hidden meanings in lessons yet wont tell you what they are full of crap. Martail arts are lessons in learning how to fight. Period. 
This is one of those bad techniques that should be retired and chalked up to being good for nothing more than fluff for a form.


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## Touch Of Death (Nov 7, 2007)

This may have been brought up already but the X-block works a lot better if you are real up close and personal. Standing at a boxing range or longer would make the whole idea a little dangerous and less effective.
Sean


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## Touch Of Death (Nov 7, 2007)

gblnking said:


> I trained for years in traditional Crap Fu Do, at a school that not only recongnized itself as a "McDojo" but it hardily proclaimed that it wanted to be the McDonalds of martial arts. A school on every street corner was the motto of the grossly over priced instructors training course. As I read this post I reflect on my fabulous < cough cough> training and remeber the "Eagle Block" (X-Block). Taught as a block for a kick. I remember watching two over zealous twenty something male students free sparring without protective gear which was highly recommended by the school to keep things real. One student delivered a fast front snap kick while the other decided to attempt the "Eagle Block" technique. Needless to say it didn't have quite the result that we all thought and had been taught that it would. In fact it left the blocker with the middle, ring, and little finger broken. Not only were the fingers broken but the kick broke through the defense and because the blocker leaned forward slightly to execute the manuver he took a foot to the mug as well.
> I guess as I have matured over the years and have done my due diligence in finding good schools the greatest lesson that I've learned is that all styles have a few bad moves that for some idiotic reason they hang on to them in the name of tradition. Or better yet they'll give you a load of bull about the technique having a higher purpose that one day you might be entitled to learn. Any school that claims to have super secret techniques only taught to certain students, or that there are hidden meanings in lessons yet wont tell you what they are full of crap. Martail arts are lessons in learning how to fight. Period.
> This is one of those bad techniques that should be retired and chalked up to being good for nothing more than fluff for a form.


So the bad posture and timming couldn't have anything to do with the failiure you wittnessed? I'm thinking this is where martial artists go wrong. Rather than accepting that skill levels are at play they just dismiss the technique all together. Are you prepared to give up everything that you see a student fail to do?
Sean


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## Brian S (Nov 7, 2007)

gblnking said:


> I trained for years in traditional Crap Fu Do, at a school that not only recongnized itself as a "McDojo" but it hardily proclaimed that it wanted to be the McDonalds of martial arts. A school on every street corner was the motto of the grossly over priced instructors training course. As I read this post I reflect on my fabulous < cough cough> training and remeber the "Eagle Block" (X-Block). Taught as a block for a kick. I remember watching two over zealous twenty something male students free sparring without protective gear which was highly recommended by the school to keep things real. One student delivered a fast front snap kick while the other decided to attempt the "Eagle Block" technique. Needless to say it didn't have quite the result that we all thought and had been taught that it would. In fact it left the blocker with the middle, ring, and little finger broken. Not only were the fingers broken but the kick broke through the defense and because the blocker leaned forward slightly to execute the manuver he took a foot to the mug as well.
> I guess as I have matured over the years and have done my due diligence in finding good schools the greatest lesson that I've learned is that all styles have a few bad moves that for some idiotic reason they hang on to them in the name of tradition. Or better yet they'll give you a load of bull about the technique having a higher purpose that one day you might be entitled to learn. Any school that claims to have super secret techniques only taught to certain students, or that there are hidden meanings in lessons yet wont tell you what they are full of crap. Martail arts are lessons in learning how to fight. Period.
> This is one of those bad techniques that should be retired and chalked up to being good for nothing more than fluff for a form.


 

 The failure was not that he did the x- block technique improperly. The failure began when he attempted to do the x-block at all. It's not,nor has it ever been a block. That is a sport application that will get you injured,as stated.

 The x-block has grappling applications, everyone has their own version. The one that's best is the one YOU can get to actually work.

 As for Funakoshi explaining things as a block, he was marketing. Back then he didn't want people to see them as a violent nation. Lots of politics involved in martial arts, it has never been a good thing.

 "uke" means to receive

 block is a poor Americanized misenterpretation of the word "uke"


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## still learning (Nov 7, 2007)

Hello, NOT a fan of Kata's...had to learn them because? ...just because that was the way it is in karate!  There methods of teaching Karate
As a new students? ....one just follow what is taught!

Many movements in Kata should be question? to be use in real fighting on the streets or whereever!

Again like the high block is taught in the kata...so was the "X" block taught to stop a kick......NO OTHER REASON!

"Yes" it could be consider a foolish move like so many other techniques in many Kata today!  in those days...that was just one more method to learn to stop a kick.

Gichin Funikoshi...may have not create some of the  kata's....or maybe made changes as he saw it then......he too...was teaching them as he learn it before........this is the way I learn it...this is the way it teach it...and this is the way you will learn it....

True story ..today Mom why to you cut the end off the ham...because that was how grandmother did it.....called their grandmother....becuse that is how my mom did it.......called greatgrandmother....why did you cut the end of ham off? ....because it did not fit in the oven!

Is martial arts like this today? .........just look at all the controversy's

even something as simple as using two hands to block a kick? ....we have a thousand versions of what it means.............

PS: Today we have a Big oven....for those who have a small one...you are welcome to use mines.....

Maybe better not to use the hands to block....just take the kick instead.....for BLOCK HEADS ONLY!


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## MJS (Nov 7, 2007)

SL, a few questions for you.

1) Why do you repeat yourself in every post you make?

2) Why don't you read what others are saying in their posts?

3) Why do you not see that there are many applications to each move?

4) Why can't you offer a reason to my last post I made in this thread?  


You seem to be so firm in your position, but yet you can't offer anything to back it up.  Instead you keep repeating yourself over and over and over again.  Let me ask you once again...do you really think that a) the X block is the best block for a kick and B) what methods you use to block a kick?


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## Brian S (Nov 7, 2007)

still not learning said:


> Hello, NOT a fan of Kata's...had to learn them because I have no clue? ...just because that was the way it is in karate! There methods of teaching Karate
> As a new students? ....one just follow what is taught or what they read, like me!
> 
> 
> ...


 
"Yes" it could be consider a foolish move like so many other techniques in many Kata today! in those days...that was just one more method to learn to stop a kick. I love to practice my sport karate in deadly situations!!!

Gichin Funikoshi...may have not create some of the kata's....or maybe made changes as he saw it then......he too...was teaching them as he learn it before........this is the way I learn it...this is the way it teach it...and this is the way you did not learn it. Will you share the real way with me.

True story ..today Mom why to you cut the end off the ham...because that was how grandmother did it.....called their grandmother....becuse that is how my mom did it.......called greatgrandmother....why did you cut the end of ham off? ....because it did not fit in the oven!

Is martial arts like this today? .........just look at all the controversy's I have created on the internet.

even something as simple as using two hands to block a kick? (which is a sport version) ....we (me and my hamsters) have a thousand versions of what it means.............

PS: Today we have a Big oven....for those who have a small one...you are welcome to use mines..(land mines?)...

Maybe better not to use the hands to block....just take the kick instead.....for BLOCK HEADS (like me) ONLY!

Thanks Brian S, for fixing my quote for me. I now that uke means "to receive" and not "block".[/quote]

Fixed that for you, still arguing.

You are not a fan of kata because you learned them in a sport based martial art. Now, you want real applications. The applications were not taught to you properly and you can not learn them on a message board.


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## jks9199 (Nov 7, 2007)

still learning said:


> Hello, NOT a fan of Kata's...had to learn them because? ...just because that was the way it is in karate!  There methods of teaching Karate
> As a new students? ....one just follow what is taught!
> 
> Many movements in Kata should be question? to be use in real fighting on the streets or whereever!
> ...



  :deadhorse

Words ain't gettin' through...  maybe pictures will?

You don't like kata.  That's fine.  

You apparently believe each technique has one interpretation and one use only.  That's fine.

Many of us, based on our own experience and training, have a different view.  

It's quite clear to me that nobody's mind is going to be changed anytime soon.

Let me try one more time.

You enjoy fishing, right?  If I tell you that you should use a particular lure for mahi-mahi, does that mean that same lure won't occasionally net something else, like tilipia?  Or can a lure be used to catch more than one type of fish?

OK.

I'm done.  

Since I don't see this making any progress, I'm done with this thread.  In fact, in response to your issues with kata in general, I'm done.  I'd encourage others to consider this approach.  'Cause   just ain't fun.


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## Cirdan (Nov 8, 2007)

still learning said:


> Hello, NOT a fan of Kata's...had to learn them because? ...just because that was the way it is in karate!


 
hmm.. so you never learned Kata beyond just doing the movements in one precise way. Yep I agree, that is a bad way to do it. Sorry you wasted a lot of time.




> this is the way I learn it...this is the way it teach it...and this is the way you will learn it....


 
I assure you many others do it quite differently not_learning. Your insistance that this is not possible makes little sense. I think you are trying to justify not understanding Kata for yourself, not having a meaningful discussion. Also, you are very much starting to sound like a true sheep. Baaa, baaa, baaa, baaa, over and over again no matter what we try to tell you. Sad really, because a lot of great advice have been given by people trying to help you here.


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## MrE2Me2 (Nov 8, 2007)

still learning said:


> Hello, The controversy will go on forever..............



To some it will.

To others, kata is an integral part of their practise.
Kata contains many vital elements to those who practise it.
But there is that word..."Practise"...not typing and not arguing..."Practise".

For those who do this, there is no time for controversy.
There is time to question how and when and where and against who.
It isn't a matter of if...


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## DArnold (Nov 8, 2007)

Is this upward?

If so it may also depend on when and where you stop the kick.
If you stop it before the power stoke the block is simple.
If you are coming down with your arm at me I can stop it with 1 finger if I stop you at the right time!


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## MJS (Nov 8, 2007)

DArnold said:


> Is this upward?
> 
> If so it may also depend on when and where you stop the kick.
> If you stop it before the power stoke the block is simple.
> If you are coming down with your arm at me I can stop it with 1 finger if I stop you at the right time!


 
Yes, good points, and this is where I was hoping to take this thread waaayyyyy back with my post 49.  I think we should now start looking at exactly where you would execute this X block, if that was the choice for a block.


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## MJS (Nov 8, 2007)

Cirdan said:


> hmm.. so you never learned Kata beyond just doing the movements in one precise way. Yep I agree, that is a bad way to do it. Sorry you wasted a lot of time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

Well, I think you hit the nail right on the head my friend.  However, I can sympathize with SL...just a little bit, as I was at one time, in the same boat as he.  I had an instructor who, for the life of him, could not provide me with an explaination of what the moves in the kata were.  A typical convo. would go like this:

Me: What is this move for in the kata?  I'm not quite sure how its used?
Inst: Well, we do it that way because.......................................................................................................because thats the way its done.  

Notice the long pause there?   Thank God I eventually came into contact with folks that were able to really make me think and help with the applications.  Sure, there were times when I was able to figure things out on my own, but IMO, if I was expected to pass on this material, I wanted to be able to give others at least one application, before I told them to be creative and figure out others on their own. 

In this case here though, one of two things seem to be happening.  Either the person doing the kata just doesnt feel they should have to do any legwork and should have everything handed to them, or such as the case with me, the inst. doesnt know either, so how can he pass anything on?

I do think that we should stop banging our heads though, as JKS suggested.  It gets old, boring, tiring.


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## howard (Nov 8, 2007)

DArnold said:


> If you are coming down with your arm at me I can stop it with 1 finger if I stop you at the right time!


So what's the right time?


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## still learning (Nov 8, 2007)

Hello,  I not sure if any of you were taught the "X" block from your Sensi's....

Most likely you did...because it is in the Shotokan systems....from the Kata's

same for the double hand blocks (X) above the head? ...have you guys ever learn this?  .....just one of the many blocks taught..

Kata ?  someone mention  S/L learn it as a sport form? .....I never heard of this?   Is there such a thing as sports Kata's?  in traditional shotokan?

My past Sensi's both 5th degrees (learn from Japan masters), in Hawaii never taught "sports" kata's.  NO SUCH THING in shotokan!
Karate as we learn it....was NEVER FOR SPORTS.......

IF you Sensi says to use the "X" block...to block a kick? .....what does this means to you?

picking weeds with hand cross? ....grabbing to two shoes with hand cross? .....in cases of the high cross block ...reach up to scratch someone under arms?

I guess my teachers were wrong to show us to block a kick with cross arms?  ...I wonder about the one hand blocks too?....was it meant to block something?  UM ....could it be a "bug" flying by our heads too!

How many of you are aware of using this block ("X") blocking high and low?

IF you never  done it? ....I do understand now!

X is a good place to start...."Y" who knows....the controversy goes on!

Did you know? ....many leaders of the world...has thousands of followers....who will die for their causes....follow everything that is told to them......sheeps

In your studies of the martial arts.....how many are sheeps

If one art is so good? ...how come today lots of people are cross training?

How come most schools are adding others arts to their training that was never taught before?

Simple? .....those teachers/Instructors knows ......?  not going there?

In our system we have 21 choke holds...I sure many of you have more...a couple of them use's the "X" or cross arms for the choke!

The "X" for blocking kicks ...is not to choke the kick..ugh!   gotta tap...legs getting no "air"....

People ask why do I keep repeating myself or go back to this forum?....I wonder about you too!

I guess there are more foolish people than we realize? ....just me OK!

Martial art forum...a place to share your thoughts and beliefs.......right or wrong...good or bad....correct or not...each of us has a choice to choose what we want to believe?

I believe carrots can grow to be orange's (in color,one day scientist will make it taste like an orange!  believe it or NOT?

"X"  cercise is good?  is it this good?

Aloha

Sensi Sidney Kano resides in Kona ,Hawaii and still teaches
Sensi Terry Smith resides in Waikoloa, NO longer teaches (retired)


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## still learning (Nov 8, 2007)

Hello, Forgot to add this:

Sensi Sidney Kano (Shotokan Karate)

Sensi Terry Smith (ShotOkan and Goju Ryu Karate)  When Terry live in Californa his Sensi just move from Japan..when their first training classes open....

Terry said they (husband and wife) could speak hardly any english...and Terry NO Japanese....

As time went on...the Sensi's learn english and Terry learn Japanese....

The Sensi's Wife was an All Japan Kata champion....whom Terry learn from...everything was about "PERFECTION"

That was the way he taught it to his students...just wanted to share this...NO sports kata's just the traditional stuffs....perfection was the key....that is the way we remember learning them....to perfect each movement...Aloha


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## Cirdan (Nov 8, 2007)

If you didn`t move beyond perfecting individual techniques you did not do "the traditional stuff". It  is rather typical modern shallow brain dead Kata for the masses. Step one and barely so. This is like believing you can write fluently just because you have memorized the alphabet.

_It is obvious that these kata must be trained and practised sufficiently, but one must not be stuck in them. One must withdraw from the kata to produce forms with no limits or else it becomes useless. It is important to alter the form of the trained kata without hesitation to produce countless other forms of training_. -Hironori Otsuka

In case you did not know, Otsuka received his Karate training from Funakoshi (among others)


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## MJS (Nov 8, 2007)

Interestingly enough, while surfing thru some posts here, I came across this.  Pay special attention to post 4.  This may explain SLs stance on kata.



> Martin Buell was a student of the late Walter Godin. He eventually went his own way, and has made significant changes to his style of Kempo. *As far as I know, very little emphasis on forms*.


 
IIRC this is the org. that SL trains under.  Now, hey, if someone is doing their own thing, thats fine, best of luck to you.  I've never met the man, nor have I heard of him, except on this forum.  However, if what was said is true, then I can now see, why there is so much confusion/dislike of kata.


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## Sukerkin (Nov 8, 2007)

Excellent find (to use the word 'expose' would be over-gilding the lily but it does explain much).

*S_L* for one last time I shall try to entice you into seeing that no matter how much you want something to be true, sometimes it simply isn't.  Now I realise that this cuts both ways and also concede that to argue your case is not necessarily being disruptive per se.  But, that being said, the ground you're on is not firm in terms of the actuality of what kata based training is all about.

I've hinted at it before but you are not doing your reputation any good with this constant grind of us telling you "Look!  The sky is blue!" and your gainsaying of that.  For all our sakes, please stop and think on both what we have said in various forms in various threads and your reaction to the same.

I commend you on the fact that when given some fairly brusque responses you have, in the main, retained your calm.  That was very well done.  But, as with any activity involving human interaction, there is usually a reason why people start to become exasperated.  Sticking to your guns is one thing and commendable under some circumstances but there comes a time when it is better to be the willow than the rock.

Mata Na.


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## Brian S (Nov 8, 2007)

still learning said:


> Hello, I not sure if any of you were taught the "X" block from your Sensi's....


 
 Apparently you are not reading my posts. How else would I know the x-"block" if I wasn't taught it?



> Most likely you did...because it is in the Shotokan systems....from the Kata's
> 
> same for the double hand blocks (X) above the head? ...have you guys ever learn this? .....just one of the many blocks taught..


 
 I don't do shotokan. I don't like most shotokan I seen. It's sport based and geared that way from the beginning of the system. It can be trained to fit other needs,but that's not mainstream IMO.



> Kata ? someone mention S/L learn it as a sport form? .....I never heard of this? Is there such a thing as sports Kata's? in traditional shotokan?


 
 Traditional shotokan is sport based karate, therefore, the kata would be too.



> My past Sensi's both 5th degrees (learn from Japan masters), in Hawaii never taught "sports" kata's. NO SUCH THING in shotokan!
> Karate as we learn it....was NEVER FOR SPORTS.......
> 
> IF you Sensi says to use the "X" block...to block a kick? .....what does this means to you?
> ...


 
 I'm sorry you were taight this way, but it is not a block at all. There are no blocks in kata. I know of 10th dan's who teach this way, but they aren't right either IMO. does someone's rank make them right? Seems like to me that you are the sheep.

 Ask yourself this. Why would I lower both of my hands to block a low kick? Wouldn't that leave your face,head,neck etc... open? where are their hands?  There are many questions like this.

 The answers lie in the translation as I have said before.

  I am joining the other guy. Do the research for yourself, get some good instruction, and quit repeating yourself. With all due respect,I'm finished talking to a wall.


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## wesley (Nov 8, 2007)

the two handed "X" block does have it's use's in a real fight. i study HwaRang Do and was taught this block very early. both the downwards and upwards version.

it is effective against front kicks or a punch towards your solar plexus, in that it lets you stop the kick, or punch, with a lot of force, and gives you a chance to catch your opponent for a throw or a joint lock. as well as hurt them a lot if you strike their shin or wrist with your forearm.

the way you all make it sound is that it leaves you so vunerable. all i have to say is, _Their punch wont hit you if your out of reach, fading back at an angle will solve that problem... and they cant move if you now have control of their leg or have a joint lock on their wrist..._

as for the argument about kata's, or form's, whatever you want to call them...
a kata is set of techniques linked together in a row, preformed against a set of imaginary opponent's. 
it is only ment to practice the workings of a technique..try getting into a fight with only kata's for experience and you will probably lose.

personally i dislike this "sport" stuff, i see to many people go to these street corner "McDojo's" and come out after a week thinking they can pick a fight and win..

a perfect example is a guy in my rotc unit. he came over to my house talking about how he was going to be a black belt in tae kwon do in a few weeks, how they had been doing all this training with knives and other weapons. i asked him to open handed spar with me, first thing i did was a light, right backhand to his head...he looked at me in shock as it landed..saying, "you cant aim for the head!" 
"what will someone on the street do??" i asked...
after that i asked him what his defensive knife techniques looked like, and fetched my wooden training knife... i slowly attacked him with a stabing motion letting him show me his technique, he didn't even move out of the way of the knife.. tried to block it with a top block, i just spun the knife down and used the pomel to twist him in a joint lock and let him go when he tapped out on his knee's. ...i had let him have plenty of time to strip the knife from me..and i preformed my offensive, non-lethal technique slowly.
..i felt horrible afterwards. People need to understand that the rules of a mat are not the rules of the street.

when working on these kata's you need to think, "what if i get attacked like this.. and how am i going to get out alive."
the kata's are you time to say WHAT IF...not the streets, when faced with a mugger at knife point...

and everyone...please try to keep personal comments out of this, lets have a friendly discussion.. no more of this, your a sheep, he's a lamb, that guys a lamb chop... i KNOW everyone has been taught disipline since they were a white belt.. lets try to act like we're adults here.


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## Brian S (Nov 8, 2007)

Wesley,

 I'm not sure waht your experience level is,but you have a gross misunderstanding of what kata are. Seems to me that you are describing what you claim to dislike,mcdojo.

 Kata are not against multiple opponents, kata is not a prearranged fight. The bunkai you described is sport stuff,awful,ineffective, unrealistic.

 If this is what karate really was, I wouldn't waste my time.



 I'm going to just walk away from this one.


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## Cirdan (Nov 9, 2007)

wesley said:


> People need to understand that the rules of a mat are not the rules of the street.


 
And your demonstration of knife lethality by turning a stab into a wrist lock illustrates this how? I think you need to realize a few facts about this yourself, having turned 18 and being an adult and all.

-People attacking you with a knife are trying to kill you. Period. 
-If you get stabbed you are likely to receive a life threatening wound.


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## MJS (Nov 9, 2007)

Has anyone noticed that the proponents of the X block against the kick, fight that until they're blue in the face, yet I haven't seen one answer to poor post 49. 

"Yes, Yes, Yes!!  This block is for a kick!! Nothing else!!!"  Ok...so as I was trying to do before...if this block is so effective for a kick, lets hear at what point the X should be executed.


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## oguzalp (Nov 10, 2007)

Hi all,
"X" block, kosa uke, wa uke, can apply to, jodan, chudan or gedan level kicks ot fists. One of the important thing when it use is distance and dachi  as all others. This uke provide easy ukemi possibilitys, if you can apply correctly.
Take care
O.Hakan Oguzalp


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## wesley (Nov 10, 2007)

Cirdan, 

by killing an opponent in a knife fight while being a trained person the rules of self defense dont apply the same to Martial Artists.. because if you kill your attacker, you'll still go on trial, and they'll ask, "havent you had training on how to stop knife attack's?" it can be used, and has been in the past. (in England they threw a farmer in jail for shooting a burglar in the leg, for defending his life and his house they threw him in jail for something like 3 years...and the burglar took him to court and won for the gun wound to the leg!)

and, i only used the nonlethal technique because of a personal issue. i know many lethal techniques it's just that, i've seen a friend of mine take a wooden knife in the wrist because he messed up his block.

my point was that, just because you have a black belt does not mean you know a lot. pride only lead's to close mindedness, and therefore one's downfall.

you should never think, "because i was taught this, and practice it this way, then it will happen like this on the street..."

there are MANY things that are not taught in schools that are EXTREMELY effective in a street fight.

and on the "X" block issue.. over half of HwaRang Do's Orange belt techniques start with steping back and blocking a kick, following up with a block to a punch, or punches, and then counter attacking. i'm sure if these techniques were good enough for Korean Elite warriors who often faught at hand to hand distance then they still apply today.


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## Cirdan (Nov 11, 2007)

wesley said:


> Cirdan,
> 
> by killing an opponent in a knife fight while being a trained person the rules of self defense dont apply the same to Martial Artists.. because if you kill your attacker, you'll still go on trial, and they'll ask, "havent you had training on how to stop knife attack's?" it can be used, and has been in the past. (in England they threw a farmer in jail for shooting a burglar in the leg, for defending his life and his house they threw him in jail for something like 3 years...and the burglar took him to court and won for the gun wound to the leg!)


 
What are you saying? That somoene trying to stab you is not a lethal threat? Asuming you are skilled enough to handle something this is dangerous to say the least.



> and, i only used the nonlethal technique because of a personal issue. i know many lethal techniques it's just that, i've seen a friend of mine take a wooden knife in the wrist because he messed up his block.


 
Perhaps you should get duller pratice knives or use less force if you hurt each other. Do you train like this "perfect example" often? Not very realistic, attackers trying to stab you are not likely to try to get you in a wrist lock using the pommel of their own weapon. I really hope bs like this is not thaught in a self defense context.
(edit) Just to clarify, I don`t think the technique is totally bad, it is the way it is being used.



> my point was that, just because you have a black belt does not mean you know a lot. pride only lead's to close mindedness, and therefore one's downfall.


 
True. This goes for us all. You might want to think twice about your own training methods and what they are intended to teach.



> and on the "X" block issue.. over half of HwaRang Do's Orange belt techniques start with steping back and blocking a kick, following up with a block to a punch, or punches, and then counter attacking. i'm sure if these techniques were good enough for Korean Elite warriors who often faught at hand to hand distance then they still apply today.


 
If you are refering to the Hwarang (and I am not sure you are) then you need a lesson in history, your art has the name and little else in common with this group.

Secondly, take your own advice, don`t be close minded. The techniques you mention sounds more like drills to give the student a feeling of distance than anything "good enough" except as a beginning step on the path.


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## Sukerkin (Nov 11, 2007)

I'm don't wish to become embroiled in an argument that is likely to have no end but I just wanted to broaden the light on *Wesley*'s chosen example of the legal consequences of self defence.

Why the farmer you mentioned was jailed was due to the circumstances of the incident.  It was not the fact that he killed someone who was attempting to burgularise his home but the fact that he shot someone who was running away i.e. that the force used was not in self defence but in retribution.

The case was very high profile over here, as you can imagine and has actually had an effect on the law.  Some hold the changes to be detrimental to the rights of people to defend themselves because it removes the blanket carte blanche on the level of force used.   The fact remains that such cases are always decided by jury and it is up to them to determine whether the force used was understandable (not the same as 'reaonable') in the circumstances.




How the basic frame of the law stands now (quoted from Francis bennion, a constitutional lawyer who has had a hand in drafting a number of British laws http://www.francisbennion.com/pages/70/aboutfb.htm):

_Before Parliament altered it, the common law would have acquitted Mr Tony Martin. I quote Blackstone: &#8216;If any person attempts to break open a house in the night-time, and shall be killed in such attempt, the slayer shall be acquitted and discharged&#8217;. Blackstone added that burglary, or nocturnal housebreaking, had always been looked on as a heinous offence; not only because of the abundant terror that it naturally carries with it, but also as it is a forcible invasion and disturbance of that right of habitation which every individual might acquire even in a state of nature. &#8216;And the law of England has so particular and tender regard to the immunity of a man&#8217;s house that it styles it his castle and will never suffer it to be violated with impunity&#8217;. Nowadays the law&#8217;s tender regard is for villains and burglars.

...

The chief cause of public disquiet over the case of Tony Martin and similar cases is the test of reasonableness in relation to resistance by householders to burglars or other invaders of their home. English common law has moved on from the days of Blackstone and reached a position where the amount of force used, if the householder is not to risk prosecution and conviction, must be proportionate to the threat posed. If an intruder comes at you with a knife, you may use a knife in return. If he is armed only with a baseball bat you would be unwise to use a knife in defending yourself &#8211; and discharging a firearm would mean certain trouble with the law. Yet when the adrenalin flows in the trauma of an attack it may be difficult to keep a cool head. Darkness may prevent you seeing whether a burglar is armed, and if so with what kind of weapon. You may panic. How then can you judge accurately what degree of force is proportionate?

The difficulty is that the test is objective not subjective. A jury trying your case will be directed to assess whether in all the circumstances the amount of force you used really was reasonable and proportionate, not whether you genuinely thought it was. The position is fully set out in a Law Commission document on the defence of self-defence._


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## Adept (Nov 11, 2007)

wesley said:


> there are MANY things that are not taught in schools that are EXTREMELY effective in a street fight.



You're going to the wrong schools.


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## still learning (Nov 11, 2007)

Sukerkin said:


> Excellent find (to use the word 'expose' would be over-gilding the lily but it does explain much).
> 
> *S_L* for one last time I shall try to entice you into seeing that no matter how much you want something to be true, sometimes it simply isn't. Now I realise that this cuts both ways and also concede that to argue your case is not necessarily being disruptive per se. But, that being said, the ground you're on is not firm in terms of the actuality of what kata based training is all about.
> 
> ...


 
Hello, There are NO science or real solid FACTS that Kata training is a big benifit to learning real self-defence for the streets!!!

All those masters before us? ....were taught kata's and where train to believe in them. (those days they did it for hours and hours...daily...in sense this builds memories) to the mind and body...

Today this is rare to see this type of Kata training and with so many kata's ? NO sure?

IF kata's where so effective in training? ...How come you do not see this is others sports...or FBI training...or seals training? ...or our own military self-defense programs?

NO proof of kata's effectives for the streets? ....The truth will be known by your own students trying to protect themselves on the streets....using the forms of kata? .....where fights are never like a kata fight!

Look at many of the movements? ....will you be like that is a real fight?

Where is the proof or truths? .....base on real science and actully facts?

Maybe that is why the controversy will go on and on...because many are starting to see the the truths of kata....one by one....

( everytime one reads about those in the past...shame,trial,jail, hung, or remove from society because they were the only ones who believe in there beliefs...today were found to be correct....even the inventer of the radio...)

Aloha .....One day? ...I may be proven wrong? ...or maybe correct in my beliefs...

FACTS is not the same as beliefs ......


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## Makalakumu (Nov 11, 2007)

SL - I would suggest you check out this thread.  See if any of these dojos are near you and try them out.  My advice is to find a traditional Okinawan karate dojo, train for a while, then come back and see if you still feel this way.  This is about all anyone can do right now in this discussion.  You want facts, they exists.  In the thread located above are some resources.  Go out and discover for yourself.


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## MJS (Nov 11, 2007)

wesley said:


> Cirdan,
> 
> by killing an opponent in a knife fight while being a trained person the rules of self defense dont apply the same to Martial Artists.. because if you kill your attacker, you'll still go on trial, and they'll ask, "havent you had training on how to stop knife attack's?" it can be used, and has been in the past. (in England they threw a farmer in jail for shooting a burglar in the leg, for defending his life and his house they threw him in jail for something like 3 years...and the burglar took him to court and won for the gun wound to the leg!)


 
Are you sure about that?  Laws vary from state to state, country to country.  
http://www.cga.ct.gov/2002/olrdata/jud/rpt/2002-R-0847.htm





> and on the "X" block issue.. over half of HwaRang Do's Orange belt techniques start with steping back and blocking a kick, following up with a block to a punch, or punches, and then counter attacking. i'm sure if these techniques were good enough for Korean Elite warriors who often faught at hand to hand distance then they still apply today.


 
A few things:

1) I always find it interesting when people say, "Well, if it worked for this person or during this time, it'll always work!"  Personally, I'm not interested in what worked or works for others, I'm interested in making sure things are going to work for me.  

2) An X block has its plus side.  I have not argued against that.  However, the difference in its effectiveness lies in the application of the X block.  

3) I still find it interesting that I have not seen much discussion on exactly what point and time does the X get executed on a kick.


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## MJS (Nov 11, 2007)

still learning said:


> Hello, There are NO science or real solid FACTS that Kata training is a big benifit to learning real self-defence for the streets!!!


 
And this comes from someone who trains at a school with little emphasis on kata, correct?




> Today this is rare to see this type of Kata training and with so many kata's ? NO sure?


 
And you know this how?  I guess you're not reading these threads too well, because I could pick out quite a few people on this thread alone that have an in-depth knowledge of kata.



> IF kata's where so effective in training? ...How come you do not see this is others sports...or FBI training...or seals training? ...or our own military self-defense programs?


 
Then if you don't like kata, don't train it!!!!  You repeat yourself over and over.  It gets old hearing the same thing.  Just because you don't do it, just because you don't understand it, does not mean that there are others around that love kata, understand kata, and can make kata work!




> NO proof of kata's effectives for the streets? ....The truth will be known by your own students trying to protect themselves on the streets....using the forms of kata? .....where fights are never like a kata fight!


 
Ahh..the magic word...proof!!  Sorry but I don't walk around with a video camera.  However, if you took the moves of kata, yes, they can be broken down into self defense techniques, so I'm sorry to say, but you are wrong here.  Then again, if you don't understand kata, and apparently you don't, you would never know this.





> Aloha .....One day? ...I may be proven wrong?


 
Actually you already have been proven wrong I'm afraid...many times.


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## still learning (Nov 11, 2007)

Hello,  War of words .....anyone can win......when science proves with technical data.....even this can be dismiss...depends on how the reseach was done and if done with fairly!

Best way to learn is full contact and with realism.....

Even soldiers who train before going into actual combat....says the training at home is NOT the same as the REAL COMBAT!

Cause anything goes....NO rules by the enemy!

"X" blocks are taught and use in Kata's .....we just have to accept the fact...and do it that way.....even if we do not like blocking that way!..because we are ''sheeps" ...following the way? ...or path of kata's...

In most of our fights we will use the top 20% of our techniques and use it 80% of the time.....the rest of the 80% of techniques or tools we learn...will be use on 20% of the time!

the 80/20 rules for alot things .....in business the top 20% of products will create 80% of sales..and 80% of the other products will create 20% of sales

Watch any fights....you will see  only a handful of techniques use punches and kicks....NOT much others techniques use....

"X" block good to know about? ....it may work? ....just another tool in the bottom 80% of tools in a fight which maybe use in the group of 20% use!

There are many things taught in martial arts ....so many of them you wonder if one can use them (techniques in kata's) for the real fighting like that on the streets of survival?

Bruce Lee said: take what is useful ...disguard the uselessness...

Wonder why people learn the uselessness of certain moves for todays world? ...is it because that is the way it is? ...traditions'  or sheeps?


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## Cirdan (Nov 12, 2007)

Since we are back where we started still_not_learning I suggest that you start reading this and the other Kata thread from the start again. When finished do it agan. And again. Serves the same purpose as you reposting the same statements and us trying to explain ad naseum. Who knows, maybe eventually you will pick something up. I`m done talking to the wall.


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## morph4me (Nov 12, 2007)

:deadhorse


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## MJS (Nov 12, 2007)

Sigh...once again..its really very simple SL.  If you like kata, do it.  If you don't, then don't do it!  You're harping on one small part of training, acting as if its the end all be all of training.  News flash...it isn't!! Kata is a small part of the puzzle, just like kicking is, just like punching, boxing drills, grappling, stand up, clinch, weapons, etc.


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## still learning (Nov 12, 2007)

MJS said:


> Sigh...once again..its really very simple SL. If you like kata, do it. If you don't, then don't do it! You're harping on one small part of training, acting as if its the end all be all of training. News flash...it isn't!! Kata is a small part of the puzzle, just like kicking is, just like punching, boxing drills, grappling, stand up, clinch, weapons, etc.


 
Hello, Glad you agree? ...KATA IS A SMALL PART OF THE PUZZLE...and not consider a major role in learning MARTIAL ARTS!

KATA's  is a great way to teach beginners...as one progress the kata should envolve into a NON restricted form of training...unlimited..free forming...anything goes of self..development...

meaning as one pass the beginning...one should process on their own free form kata movements...NON restricted....each makes his own and changes as the wind blows....like a street fight...unlimited attacks, anything goes...always changing....

Kata is just a small part...good for beginners...fighting for your life on the streets....is anything goes..no rules...always changing...and can be never ending.....(two minutes is a life time) .......

Yes I am not a fan of Kata...it does have it's place...BUT should not be consider the utimate training tool......good for beginners..

Read up on this when Kata was taught in Okinawa elementary schools...by a karate teacher...? . .....and how it was later taught to older students as a form of training......today....some believe it is the only way to train?

Thank-you...you have brought out many things to look at...in other ways....

The progress of learning martial arts...is ever changing......the methods, the teachings.....the future holds the truths........Aloha

PS: S/L...is just a tiny part of the discussions, trying to share other point of view.......


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## MJS (Nov 12, 2007)

still learning said:


> Hello, Glad you agree? ...KATA IS A SMALL PART OF THE PUZZLE...and not consider a major role in learning MARTIAL ARTS!
> 
> KATA's is a great way to teach beginners...as one progress the kata should envolve into a NON restricted form of training...unlimited..free forming...anything goes of self..development...
> 
> ...


 
Glad you found some use in my post SL.    I think the difference between you and I though, is that while I don't focus 100% of my training time on kata, I still am able to pull out some applications to it.  I get the feeling that you're not doing this.  Not sure if you know it or not, but take Short 2 from the Parker system.  The first move is an inward block, followed by an outward knife hard strike, with the same hand.  Applications for defense:  Against a single or double hand lapel grab.  Another application for defense:  A right or left punch.  

So you see, just that little move and I came up with a few different applications.  

Like I said...if you want to train it, then train it.  If you don't, then don't.  Some will train it more than others.  Some will find more value in it than others.  I find value in it, but I also have other aspects of my art to work on too.


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## still learning (Nov 13, 2007)

Hello, Many years ago ...long time...ok a few years ago..while learning Kata's....if one got into a real fight and try to use the traditional karate and kata way of fighing....

Most likely....NOT here to talk about it.....the deep stances, and long blocks and punches...NOT sure if it would work on the streets....

Question is what we are learning today and what is being taught? ....for those students who believe their Sensi?   WILL IT WORK FOR STREET FIGHTS? ...just go to You tube and watch a few of them?

answer lies in the skill of the beholder and those who are lucky too!

ARE WE BEING TAUGHT....the right things..the in the correct way...for a real fight? 

or is there alot of useless....tools? ..movements ..like in kata's?

Thank-you..MJS.....Aloha ....

PS: No two fights will be the same...meaning..no one knows what will work for the next one....so we have to prepare ourselves...for everything....

best to have a few good tools..to master...than a jack of all trades...


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## MJS (Nov 13, 2007)

still learning said:


> Hello, Many years ago ...long time...ok a few years ago..while learning Kata's....if one got into a real fight and try to use the traditional karate and kata way of fighing....


 
Well, I think that we've beat this horse a few times already, but hey, whats one more.  I don't think that anyone has said that you will use a kata in the same fashion that you would fight in.  IMHO, I think this is where you may be getting confused.  Think of a kata this way...think of it as a bunch of techniques.  Now, just like all of our other empty hand defenses that we have, depending on what is being thrown at us, we select the correct response.  The same applies to kata.  



> Most likely....NOT here to talk about it.....the deep stances, and long blocks and punches...NOT sure if it would work on the streets....


 
I know I've started a discussion on something similar here in the past.  Something along the lines of whether or not TMAs need to update themselves.  Now, while there may be deep stances in the kata, it does not mean that those same stances can't be shortened, thus giving a more practical application. 



> Question is what we are learning today and what is being taught? ....for those students who believe their Sensi? WILL IT WORK FOR STREET FIGHTS? ...just go to You tube and watch a few of them?


 
Please, please tell me you're not watching youtube and using that as a deciding factor as to what works/does not work??  But hey, you can do what you want, but for myself, I'll go another route.  I want to know what works for ME, not what works for someone else.  Just because someone can make something work, doesn't mean I can make it work and vice versa.  But like I said, you're free to train how you want.   Will anything ever work?  Who knows...but the best we can do is train hard, train alive and hope for the best. 




> ARE WE BEING TAUGHT....the right things..the in the correct way...for a real fight?


 
Well SL, this is why I always say that its very important to always evaluate your training.  Everyone should have a goal, something that they want to get out of their training.  If they're not getting it, or certain things are lacking, then you should seek out a source where you can get that training.


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## JadeDragon3 (Dec 28, 2007)

IMO X blocks suck. The best defense against a kick IMO is stepping in and merely deflecting it to the side or simply just not be there when he kicks you. Move out of the way of the kick. When his (opponent) kick is returning is the time that he is off balance and is vulnerable for counter attack. Or as soon as the kicking foot is back on the ground sweep that leg/foot with a front leg check followed up with a side kick (same leg). This is all done in one move. Shaolin Do teaches the X block as well and I have never been to "hip" on that type block. I've seen a lot of SD students use it. Not that I would bash Shaolin Do Karate becauseLord knows enough people have done that already......LOL.


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## exile (Dec 28, 2007)

JadeDragon3 said:


> IMO X blocks suck. The best defense against a kick IMO is stepping in and merely deflecting it to the side or simply just not be there when he kicks you....I've seen a lot of SD students use it. Not that I would bash Shaolin Do Karate becauseLord knows enough people have done that already......LOL.



I've seen realistic, practical bukai for many kata that contain a so-called X-block... and not one of them interprets the movement as a blocking move. Almost always, the move is part of a pin or lock, and is a controlling move; in some bunkai, one of the crossed arms is gripping the attacker and the other is striking from below&#8212;exactly as in the case of so-called down blocks, again virtually never applied as actually blocks in any realistic scenario, where the retration hand is a hikite contolling move pulling the attacker in and the down block is a strike to the attacker's temple, neck, collarbone or groin, depending on whether the preceding moves have forced the attacker's upper body down or not. As Kane & Wilder point out in their landmark book, _The Way of Kata_, practical bunkai virtually never apply movements traditionally described as blocks as actual blocking moves. And you (all) might be interested in Iain Abernethy's comments here:
_
The "x-block" is perhaps one of the most obviously flawed techniques should it be applied as a block. The most common modern interpretation of the movement is thrusting both arms downward to stop a kick or low punch. It is highly unlikely that this would work. Even if we do manage to get our arms to the opponent's striking limb, it leaves the head dangerously exposed and, in the case of a kick, it is very likely to result in damage to the blocker's arms. It is very unlikely that the warriors who formulated the kata would have even considered the use of such a technique. So if they weren't using the motion as a block, what where they using it for?

As we'll see, the motion now labelled as "x-block" has a number of differing applications depending upon the exact way in which the technique is performed and the context of the kata (what moves are before and after it). One of the first uses we'll look at is using the "x-block" to strangle an opponent...._​
(pay attention to the accompanying photos in the article!) This is something which is kind of frustrating: people ignore the _kaisai no genri_, the general method of deciphering the combat applications encoded in kata movements; they instead follow Itosu's disguising labels for kihon moves&#8212;which, as he himself insisted on, was necessary to package karate for grade school use in the Okinawan children's curriculum&#8212;and then complain that the moves are ineffective! This is kind of like trying to use a metal stapler as a hammer and then complaining that not only is this hammer weird-looking, but it's really lousy at driving nails in. Well, _yeah!!_ :lol: 

The upshot... and I'm thinking of the OP here, 100%... *don't blame the kata because you haven't learned the skill of interpreting the movements correctly* (again, see Abernethy's comments in the link I've provided).


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## Doc_Jude (Dec 28, 2007)

exile said:


> The upshot... and I'm thinking of the OP here, 100%... *don't blame the kata because you haven't learned the skill of interpreting the movements correctly* (again, see Abernethy's comments in the link I've provided).



If the Dog Brothers are teaching X-block applications to deal with realistic knife attacks, then there is something to dealing with attacks while holding your arms in a seemingly crossed formation. I would say that most of the flack that the X-block gets is from faulty execution or the lack of dynamic off-line footwork. Also, there is no reason to stick in a down X-block once a kick has been intercepted when the front hand of the X can come up immediately to handle a punch if not engaged in a grapple. Folks need to learn how to use the X-block properly instead of jumping on the "I hate techiques that I don't understand" bandwagon.


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