# The Difference Between a Martial Artist and a Fighter



## Zenjael (Sep 14, 2012)

*I will highlight the portions I believe will allow for a faster read,* but what I don't of course is there to be read by whoever wants.

This began about 4 months back. I take perhaps too much pride in my handwork, and it's speed, and for the first time in a while, I was pure outclassed. This was a person who had well more than a foot and a half on me (this means nothing outside of reach), and his striking power was far stronger. Physically, he was in much better shape. In a drill, and in sparring, he definately outpunched me. It is rare for a person to land a strike, especially a hand technique on me. In a standard sparring drill, I will allow the person to make head contact 2-3 times, when against equal or higher, I do not. Despite being vastly inexperienced comparatively(He had 6 years of boxing, and a 1st dan in kendo whereas I have dan's in a multitude of arts ranging almost 20 years) he outfought me. Yes, I was not focusing, and yes, I was drifting because of the repetitiveness of the drill. After 10,000 times of, 'left side attack, right side block, etc, etc...' sometimes your zombie subconscious takes over. But even despite that, at 100%, fully focused and expecting everything he threw, the result would have been the same. 

*But what got to me was something he said, and I apologize for not being to quote him. In his own words, he would rather be a better fighter, than someone who works on perfecting the techniques. Essentially, he'd rather be better at fighting, than at doing say the forms, or philosophical side of the arts. *

I am not a good fighter, but* I believe with every growth in martial arts, it forces one's ability to fight, one's ability to grow as well*, to justify that rank. Overwise how else could one have been said to grow. It's why when I was 6 I was picked on mercilessly. 16 years later, and multiple rankings, I haven't had that problem in as long as I can recall.

But what this first dan said made me begin to listen. *I know countless people who cannot name the style of their martial art (these are those who say they do WTF or ITF Tae Kwon Do as though those are the styles) or cannot differentiate between penetrating, penetration, and so on, concerning strikes.* Or even worse, say they do one style, when in fact they really do another. This is notoriously commong with chung do kwan, moo duk kwan, and tang soo do. And Tae Kwon Do is by no means alone. You can watch a  multitude of different aikido styles, and yet none look remotely how O-sensei, the creator of the art, conducts himself. My point is this; *how can one actually be skilled, an expert, a master, when they are like that? Cannot even truly nomenclate and identify what their doing.*

*I believe all true martial artists are fighters, or at least all skilled martial artists are.* But I've met a lot of people who call themselves martial artists, wear a black belt, and could care a fig about their technique, form, or insight, and would rather show up on Saturday mornings and dominate. 

*I just thought I'd share that I think that there is a difference between a fighter and a martial artist.* While the latter may all, to some degree be the former, I consider it a loss, in terms of my artistic ability, if I triumphed in a confrontation, but was sloppy.

I may be a crap fighter, but I consider myself a phenomenal martial artists. I am not prideful of that as much as some would think, for there are always other things I have to learn and grow in, and always others who are far superior to me, no matter my place. I say that with humility; but I would rather be a martial artist, than a fighter. Does not the artist practice his art to perfection, so he may never have to use it?


----------



## jks9199 (Sep 14, 2012)

Just sayin'....


----------



## Zenjael (Sep 14, 2012)

Noted... but don't smoke. Did you know that doctors have also found (conclusively I might add) that engaging in the martial arts can lead to brain damage? 
Let's avoid red herring ad hominum fallacies, please?

I don't think any of us need to poison the well at this point.

What of the OP?


----------



## Rich Parsons (Sep 14, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> *I will highlight the portions I believe will allow for a faster read,* but what I don't of course is there to be read by whoever wants.
> 
> This began about 4 months back. I take perhaps too much pride in my handwork, and it's speed, and for the first time in a while, I was pure outclassed. This was a person who had well more than a foot and a half on me (this means nothing outside of reach), and his striking power was far stronger. Physically, he was in much better shape. In a drill, and in sparring, he definately outpunched me. It is rare for a person to land a strike, especially a hand technique on me. In a standard sparring drill, I will allow the person to make head contact 2-3 times, when against equal or higher, I do not. Despite being vastly inexperienced comparatively(He had 6 years of boxing, and a 1st dan in kendo whereas I have dan's in a multitude of arts ranging almost 20 years) he outfought me. Yes, I was not focusing, and yes, I was drifting because of the repetitiveness of the drill. After 10,000 times of, 'left side attack, right side block, etc, etc...' sometimes your zombie subconscious takes over. But even despite that, at 100%, fully focused and expecting everything he threw, the result would have been the same.
> 
> ...



You are applying morals or guidelines that not all arts have or hold in the same level of importance. 

I also think you have never really been in a "real fight". While I might say, yeah I messed that up but I got lucky and survived or that was not pretty, but it did a minimal amount of the job to allow me to get through that point to live to the end of the fight and hopefully beyond as well. 

Now, please understand, being in a "real fight" has no meaning to a status as a martial artist. It actually means as a person you have lived a safe life or safer than others. This would and should be considerd a good thing. 

So what is the purpose of the art? To teach how a specific culture engaged in hand to hand or with weapons combat? Or is it about self defense? Or is it about enlightenment? Is it about reaching something that specifically are trying to teach you versus reaching down deep and growing as a person to build confidence and strength of character. 

What is the purpose of the school as from school to school there can be a large varation within the same organization of the same art?  If you are not happy with how the school leaders are running it then find one that matches what you want. If you are happy and there is something that you do not like but can live with and want to stay as it is the best in the area, I say ok. (* Most people will nto drive more than 15 minutes out of their way to find a school maybe 30 minutes in some areas. While I and others would drive hours to get the training we wanted *). 


So did the guys comments challenge you inside? Challenge how you think? or what your goals are? Or did he just no fit your views on things and you are looking to find some like minded people here to say you are right and he is wrong? I will not say either are wrong, unless you are doing something you do not want too. FInd what you like and train in it. Otherwise move on and continue training until you do find it.


----------



## pgsmith (Sep 14, 2012)

> What of the OP?


  I think it shows your youth in that you worry too much about the wrong things. I also think that it shows that you think way too much about yourself.

  Sorry, but you asked for opinions, and those are my opinions based upon your post.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Sep 14, 2012)

Rich Parsons said:


> You are applying morals or guidelines that not all arts have or hold in the same level of importance.
> 
> I also think you have never really been in a "real fight". While I might say, yeah I messed that up but I got lucky and survived or that was not pretty, but it did a minimal amount of the job to allow me to get through that point to live to the end of the fight and hopefully beyond as well.
> 
> ...










Tru Dat


----------



## Steve (Sep 14, 2012)

Sounds like, according to the original post, the difference between a martial artist and a fighter is that for a fighter, the techniques work.  I guess that's as good a definition as any.


----------



## lklawson (Sep 14, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> I was pure outclassed. This was a person who had well more than a foot and a half on me (this means nothing outside of reach), and his striking power was far stronger. Physically, he was in much better shape. In a drill, and in sparring, he definately outpunched me. [...] Despite being vastly inexperienced comparatively(He had *6 years of boxing*,


I think I found the reason.



> *But what got to me was something he said, and I apologize for not being to quote him. In his own words, he would rather be a better fighter, than someone who works on perfecting the techniques. Essentially, he'd rather be better at fighting, than at doing say the forms, or philosophical side of the arts. *


Well, that's what he wants out of martial arts.  Can you fault him for getting better at that?



> I am not a good fighter, but* I believe with every growth in martial arts, it forces one's ability to fight, one's ability to grow as well*, to justify that rank.


Sez who?  Rank doesn't necessarily equate to fighting ability for most martial arts.  It equates to technical ability.  The only time rank equates to fighting ability is when the student has to fight (literally) in order to attain rank.  Of course, that raises the whole question of what is "fighting" for which I've heard more definitions than there are grains of sand on the shore.



> Overwise how else could one have been said to grow.


Not everyone does martial arts in order to "grow."  Some do it for entertainment (you know, it's "fun").  Some for self defense.  Some to fight. (self defense and fighting are not necessarily the same thing)  Some for the "art" and expression of it.  Some as an expression of their heritage.  Etc.



> It's why when I was 6 I was picked on mercilessly. 16 years later, and multiple rankings, I haven't had that problem in as long as I can recall.


Sorry about that.  I didn't realize I was being so mean to you back then.  



> But what this first dan said made me begin to listen. *I know countless people who cannot name the style of their martial art (these are those who say they do WTF or ITF Tae Kwon Do as though those are the styles) or cannot differentiate between penetrating, penetration, and so on, concerning strikes.* Or even worse, say they do one style, when in fact they really do another. This is notoriously commong with chung do kwan, moo duk kwan, and tang soo do. And Tae Kwon Do is by no means alone. You can watch a  multitude of different aikido styles, and yet none look remotely how O-sensei, the creator of the art, conducts himself. My point is this; *how can one actually be skilled, an expert, a master, when they are like that? Cannot even truly nomenclate and identify what their doing.*


That's because "style" means a bunch of different things to different people.  You can't fault someone else for not using your definition, particularly when the definition they're using is a common one.  You know, "style" means what brand of martial arts you do.  Like Aikido or some variant of Kung Fu.



> *I believe all true martial artists are fighters, or at least all skilled martial artists are.*


Then you've got some big surprises ahead of you.  Your definition of "true martial artists" is a bit narrow and doesn't always match what others are thinking.



> But I've met a lot of people who call themselves martial artists, wear a black belt, and could care a fig about their technique, form, or insight, and would rather show up on Saturday mornings and dominate.


Oh, you mean MMA guys?  BJJ?  Boxers?  Wrestlers?  Combatives?  RBSD?  Well, to be fair, almost all of them "care" about their technique but being able to dominate in their sport of field of endeavor kinda requires that to some degree.  Not looking "pretty" mind you, but "working."  And, yeah, "insight" might not rank pretty high for a lot of folks.



> *I just thought I'd share that I think that there is a difference between a fighter and a martial artist.* While the latter may all, to some degree be the former, I consider it a loss, in terms of my artistic ability, if I triumphed in a confrontation, but was sloppy.


You *DO* know the origin of the term "martial," right?



> I may be a crap fighter, but I consider myself a phenomenal martial artists.


Just as long as you understand that not everyone shares your definition and that their definition is just as valid as yours.



> Does not the artist practice his art to perfection, so he may never have to use it?


Nope.  That's a philosophical choice that you have made.  Not everyone agrees.  Try talking to some Silat folks sometime.  Bring peanut sauce and your favorite recipe for Long Pig.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Steve (Sep 14, 2012)

lklawson said:


> Oh, you mean MMA guys?  BJJ?  Boxers?  Wrestlers?  Combatives?  RBSD?  Well, to be fair, almost all of them "care" about their technique but being able to dominate in their sport of field of endeavor kinda requires that to some degree.  Not looking "pretty" mind you, but "working."  And, yeah, "insight" might not rank pretty high for a lot of folks.


Insight into technique is VERY important, but it comes primarily from doing.  

I get the feeling that, for the OP, the difference is akin to the difference between science and religion.


----------



## lklawson (Sep 14, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> *I know countless people who cannot name the style of their martial art (these are those who say they do WTF or ITF Tae Kwon Do as though those are the styles) or cannot differentiate between penetrating, penetration, and so on, concerning strikes.* Or even worse, say they do one style, when in fact they really do another. This is notoriously commong with chung do kwan, moo duk kwan, and tang soo do.


P.S.,

You might want to lighten up on this too.  Back when I was doing Tang Soo Do, 30 or so years ago, there was only one kind of Tang Soo Do in the U.S., founded by Hwang Kee, and it was officially "Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do."

I still have the lapel pin.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Blindside (Sep 14, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> Does not the artist practice his art to perfection, so he may never have to use it?



Most of the historical arts were made to be used, not for navel gazing, not for perfection of character.  MARTIAL: of and pertaining to war.  You studied the martial arts so the next time you went to war/conflict/whatever you put the other guy in the ground and he didn't do it to you.

Would you be OK with being a bad fighter but a "good martial artist" if it meant that the next time you fought you might actually die?


----------



## Aiki Lee (Sep 14, 2012)

Fighters fight. Martial artists study martial arts. Just cause you do martial arts doesn't mean you are a fighter, and just cuz someone is good at fighting, that doesn't make him a martial artist.
Personally, fighting ability is important to me in my martial training. I wouldn't call myself a fighter though. That word makes me think of people who compete in the ring or cage (which I don't do) or someone who gets into a lot of fights (which I also don't do.)


----------



## geezer (Sep 14, 2012)

Forgive me if I find what you are saying a bit confusing. Take the following statements for example. Seems contradictory to me:



Zenjael said:


> *I believe all true martial artists are fighters, or at least all skilled martial artists are.*
> 
> *I may be a crap fighter, but I consider myself a phenomenal martial artists. *




Another contradiction. You repeatedly talk of your many black belts and superb technical skill, as summarized in that statement above. "A phenomenal martial artist" you say. Wow. And then you add:





Zenjael said:


> *I am not prideful*



I assume that means you are even better than you let on, but are _too humble_ to say just how phenomenal you are. 

I also re-read what you said at the beginning about it being "rare for a person to land a strike, at least a hand technique" on you. Well I watched the sparring clip of yourself you posted a while back. May I, with equal humility, suggest that with the kind of sparring you do, that's not surprising. Techniques that are "perfect" but don't work, are not perfect techniques. I'm not saying that every martial artist has to go at it like a boxer in the ring. Go as light or heavy as you and your partners want. But at least be _honest_ with yourself. In fact *before you can be humble, you have to be honest!* 

I suspect that's why getting owned by that guy surprised you. It shouldn't have. And I don't mean that to put you down. Heck, I get whupped all the time. And I don't like to go at it that hard either. At this point, I'm in it more for fun and fitness. I guess after all these years, I'm still not a phenomenal martial artist!


----------



## frank raud (Sep 14, 2012)

"I just thought I'd share that I think that there is a difference between a fighter and a martial artist. While the latter may all, to some degree be the former, I consider it a loss, in terms of my artistic ability, if I triumphed in a confrontation, but was sloppy."

I find flipping through the latest GQ to be inspirational for those times when I find myself more concerned about how I looked than the actual outcome.


----------



## Cyriacus (Sep 14, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> *I will highlight the portions I believe will allow for a faster read,* but what I don't of course is there to be read by whoever wants.
> 
> This began about 4 months back. I take perhaps too much pride in my handwork, and it's speed, and for the first time in a while, I was pure outclassed. This was a person who had well more than a foot and a half on me (this means nothing outside of reach), and his striking power was far stronger. Physically, he was in much better shape. In a drill, and in sparring, he definately outpunched me. It is rare for a person to land a strike, especially a hand technique on me.
> In a standard sparring drill, I will allow the person to make head contact 2-3 times, when against equal or higher, I do not. Despite being vastly inexperienced comparatively(He had 6 years of boxing, and a 1st dan in kendo whereas I have dan's in a multitude of arts ranging almost 20 years) he outfought me.



Funny that, what with all the stuff weve told you about being a jack of all trades and master of none.



> Yes, I was not focusing, and yes, I was drifting because of the repetitiveness of the drill. After 10,000 times of, 'left side attack, right side block, etc, etc...' sometimes your zombie subconscious takes over. But even despite that, at 100%, fully focused and expecting everything he threw, the result would have been the same.



Probably, yeah.



> *But what got to me was something he said, and I apologize for not being to quote him. In his own words, he would rather be a better fighter, than someone who works on perfecting the techniques. Essentially, he'd rather be better at fighting, than at doing say the forms, or philosophical side of the arts.
> *



Sounds like Me so far.



> I am not a good fighter, but* I believe with every growth in martial arts, it forces one's ability to fight, one's ability to grow as well*, to justify that rank. Overwise how else could one have been said to grow. It's why when I was 6 I was picked on mercilessly. 16 years later, and multiple rankings, I haven't had that problem in as long as I can recall.


22 year olds dont tend to get bullied.
To the bold, your definition of 'grow' is not the only definition.



> But what this first dan said made me begin to listen.



So 6 years of Boxing is just a thing, but being a 1st Dan in Kendo is everything?





> *
> I know countless people who cannot name the style of their martial art (these are those who say they do WTF or ITF Tae Kwon Do as though those are the styles) or cannot differentiate between penetrating, penetration, and so on, concerning strikes.* Or even worse, say they do one style, when in fact they really do another. This is notoriously commong with chung do kwan, moo duk kwan, and tang soo do. And Tae Kwon Do is by no means alone. You can watch a  multitude of different aikido styles, and yet none look remotely how O-sensei, the creator of the art, conducts himself. My point is this; *how can one actually be skilled, an expert, a master, when they are like that? Cannot even truly nomenclate and identify what their doing.
> *



Well, apparently You were bested by a Boxer/1st Dan in Kendo. The answer is because Skilled, Expert, and Master are subjective to the individuals intended outcome. If Your intended outcome is to be a master of Philosophy, 50 Martial Arts, Forms, and Technique, so be it. Good for You. But it isnt the only path.



> *I believe all true martial artists are fighters, or at least all skilled martial artists are.* But I've met a lot of people who call themselves martial artists, wear a black belt, and could care a fig about their technique, form, or insight, and would rather show up on Saturday mornings and dominate.



Nothing wrong with that. A Martial Artist is someone who trains in Martial Arts. A Fighter is someone who fights competitively or otherwise regularly.
Being able to fight is a completely different term.
Also, in showing up and dominating, they are becoming better at what They want to become better at. Technique, Form, and Insight didnt help You with a Boxer/Kendoka, last I checked.



> *I just thought I'd share that I think that there is a difference between a fighter and a martial artist.* While the latter may all, to some degree be the former, I consider it a loss, in terms of my artistic ability, if I triumphed in a confrontation, but was sloppy.


"*I believe all true martial artists are fighters"
*"*I just thought I'd share that I think that there is a difference between a fighter and a martial artist."
*Whatevs, Ill roll with it.

Thats Your opinion/belief. Do not let it bleed over to others. If thats how You feel about 'artistic ability', go for it. But dont expect everyone else to follow.
Personally, i think if its so difficult to not be sloppy, your techniques are needlessly complicated.



> I may be a crap fighter,



Ok.



> but I consider myself a phenomenal martial artists. I am not prideful of that as much as some would think,


 
I consider myself a phenomenal martial artists...
I am not prideful.

Interesting!

If thats how you consider yourself, swell. But again, your standards are not universal.



> for there are always other things I have to learn and grow in, and always others who are far superior to me, no matter my place. I say that with humility; but I would rather be a martial artist, than a fighter. *Does not the artist practice his art to perfection, so he may never have to use it?*


To the Bold, by YOUR standard, yes. Some others may share that standard. Some others will NOT.
To the Red, that is what this boils down to. YOU would rather be a Martial Artist than someone who trains to fight.
So be it - Now embrace those who choose to train to fight, and 'grow'.


----------



## jks9199 (Sep 14, 2012)

> _Remo Williams_:   Chiun, you're incredible!
> _Chiun_:   No, I am better than that.



H'mm...



> _Remo Williams_:   You're incorrigible, Chiun.
> _Chiun_:   No, I'm better than than.



H'mm again...

Little hint...  You want people to take you seriously, show us some form of actual understanding and willingness to learn.  If you have 8 versions of a custard containing pumpkin, cinnamon, cloves, nutmeg, ginger, and other seasonings, baked in a pie shell...  You still only have 8 pumpkin pies.  Training in various forms of one art is still the working on the same basic principles.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Sep 14, 2012)

Alex... you're back...

Are you ready to answer my questions now? The ones you keep dodging?

Can you explain to us how you managed to keep fighting with a flail chest, after your ribs were "shattered" in a sparring match? Flail chests pretty much always require chest tubes, intubation, positive pressure ventilation, and treatment for the inevitable ARDS.
Can you explain to us how your father (supposedly a physician) "set" your ribs to allow you to keep fighting? (Ribs cannot be "set" like this - in the rare case that reduction of rib fractures is needed, it's done surgically with plates/screws.)

Or are you going to dodge the questions again?


----------



## Zenjael (Sep 14, 2012)

Dirty dog; I will not answer your question. Keep asking, keep receiving silence. 

PM the question. I won't answer it either, it's not your business, and in my eyes, aren't someone worth taking the time to explain. You hold onto the past, petty, and break forum rules doing so. Meh to you. 

You can attack me, or be mature and move on. Your choice, you're essentially talking to yourself each time you ask. Have fun playing with yourself in that regard.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 14, 2012)

How come every time I come back tot his site, Zenjael posts something that turns the whole world by storm? Do you wait for my posts before you post your own or something? (not a serious question, just thats how it seems haha, no its not actually the case...i think...:lookie


----------



## lklawson (Sep 14, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> I have dan's in a multitude of arts ranging almost 20 years [...] when I was 6 I was picked on mercilessly. 16 years later


Wait a tic... You've been doing martial arts since you were 2?

It's all adding up.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 14, 2012)

the number of years hes been doing changes constantly, from the range hes given, hes started anywhere from age 6 to before he was born (could have sworn he said he was 19 at some point too, but don't hold me to that)


----------



## Dirty Dog (Sep 14, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> Dirty dog; I will not answer your question. Keep asking, keep receiving silence.
> 
> PM the question. I won't answer it either, it's not your business, and in my eyes, aren't someone worth taking the time to explain. You hold onto the past, petty, and break forum rules doing so. Meh to you.
> 
> You can attack me, or be mature and move on. Your choice, you're essentially talking to yourself each time you ask. Have fun playing with yourself in that regard.



It's not an attack, kiddo. You made a statement (well, actually a LOT of statements) that flies in the face of reality. I raise the BS flag and ask you to explain. You refuse. Well, actually, I suspect you CAN"T, because your statements aren't actually true.

I think it's important for people to know when a poster has a severe case of craniorectal impaction.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Sep 14, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> Despite being vastly inexperienced comparatively(He had 6 years of boxing, and a 1st dan in kendo whereas I have dan's in a multitude of arts ranging almost 20 years) he outfought me.



You may want to re-examine your assumptions about which of you was comparatively inexperienced.  He had 6 years training in a discipline which emphasizes full-contact sparring and physical conditioning at a level well beyond what you'll experience in most commercial dojos.  On top of that, he also has significant experience in an art that practices full contact sparring with weapons which can strike much more quickly than punches or kicks.

On the other hand, most of your almost 20 years of training took place in your childhood.  Unless you grew up in Thailand and started fighting pro at age 12, most of that training was not at the level that would be demanded of an adult martial artist.  Furthermore, your training has been scattered among different martial arts.  I've seen your video of you sparring.  Given the level of ability demonstrated in that video, frankly, I would expect a boxer with 6 years of hard training at a good gym to dominate you.



> *In his own words, he would rather be a better fighter, than someone who works on perfecting the techniques.*



Perfecting your technique should make you a better fighter - unless the techniques you are perfecting are something unrelated to combat.  I guess if your techniques are practiced purely for meditative, health, or cultural reasons then they might not affect your ability to fight.  Of course, if all your techniques fall into that category then there might be some debate as to whether what you are practicing is truly a *martial *art.



> *I know countless people who cannot name the style of their martial art*



Really?  I've been around a lot of martial artists and I've rarely encountered such a thing.  Usually it's the first thing they learn when they sign up for lessons.  I suppose there are some beginners who just know they've signed up for "karate" lessons and haven't yet learned that they're doing Shotokan as opposed to Shorin-ryu, but once they've been showing up for a little while they generally catch on.



> *I just thought I'd share that I think that there is a difference between a fighter and a martial artist.*



It depends on what definitions you're putting on these terms.  By my definitions, they are overlapping but not identical categories.  A fighter is someone who fights - whether in competition or in the streets.  He or she may or may not draw upon a martial art as the basis for his fighting ability.  A martial artist is someone who practices a martial art.  He or she may or may not ever get into a fight.  Hopefully he or she would at least have an improved ability to handle him or herself in a fight, should one occur, based on that practice.  If not, see my earlier question about whether one is truly practicing a martial art.



> I consider it a loss, in terms of my artistic ability, if I triumphed in a confrontation, but was sloppy.



Are you under the impression that good technique is about looking pretty for the judge's scorecards?



> I may be a crap fighter, but I consider myself a phenomenal martial artists.



How exactly are you defining "phenomenal martial artist"?


----------



## Dirty Dog (Sep 14, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> I may be a crap fighter, but I consider myself a phenomenal martial artists.



[YT]EkiKjJ4ybu4[/YT]

Oh yeah, you're phenomenal all right... anybody still got the link to his knife demo? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


----------



## WC_lun (Sep 14, 2012)

Alex, you are young and so inexperienced you don't even know what it is that you are asking.  Martial artist are people who train in applied violence.  We all have our different reasons for training and how/when that violence is applied(ie sport, tournamant, self defense, etc)  A fighter fights.  It will vary how and what a fighter will fight, from individual to individual.  Your corrupted and fantastical definition of martial arts is that more akin to a religion.  If you want a moral code given to you by someone else, enlightenment, or just someplace that tells you how great you are, go find a religion.

That doesn't mean martial arts cannot reinforce a religion or spiritual belief.  It can, just like everyday life can and should.  However, martial ability or skill in a person in no way ordains them with magical powers giving them special knowledge about morality or spirituality.  You have no special insight.

A common saying in kung fu circles is you cannot pour tea into an already full cup.  You could learn much from your failure to match up against a skilled boxer.  Your (mistaken) statements about your own prowess indicate you are not really ready to do that yet.  Something to think about.


----------



## K-man (Sep 14, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> I think it's important for people to know when a poster has a severe case of craniorectal impaction.


Beautiful!!!         :lfao:         (And it's obviously a totally different world up there!)


----------



## Tames D (Sep 15, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> It's not an attack, kiddo. You made a statement (well, actually a LOT of statements) that flies in the face of reality. I raise the BS flag and ask you to explain. You refuse. Well, actually, I suspect you CAN"T, because your statements aren't actually true.
> *
> I think it's important for people to know when a poster has a severe case of craniorectal impaction*.



So what is your purpose with this statment (in bold)? Is this your opinion or do you know something we don't? Very rude for a so called mentor.


----------



## K-man (Sep 15, 2012)

Tames D said:


> So what is your purpose with this statment (in bold)? Is this your opinion or do you know something we don't? Very rude for a so called mentor.


I'm going to stick my head up in support of *Dirty Dog*, not that he can't stand up for himself but just to know he is not the only one who thinks Alex has his head up his &#8364;#£&.    If you have followed Alex's posts over he past six months you wouldn't have asked the question.  Every second post contains something that contradicts the post before and the level of misinformation or lack of understanding is profound.  Yet Alex still finds it necessary to tell us at every opportunity: _"I consider myself a phenomenal martial artist".

_I take everyone at face value.  We are all martial artists of differing rank and time in service.  We all put forward our thoughts and I respect those even if I disagree with the ideas expounded, especially in 'The Study'.  But what I cannot stand is someone with obviously little knowledge or ability putting themselves up as an expert and making claims that do not stand up to scrutiny.  

In particular, the claim of fighting with '_shattered_' ribs and having them set to continue was interesting to say the least. If someone tells the truth about themselves they will not have an issue with me, but sometimes we need to run the BS flag up the pole, even if it could be considered rude.         :asian:


----------



## Cyriacus (Sep 15, 2012)

Tames D said:


> So what is your purpose with this statment (in bold)? Is this your opinion or do you know something we don't? Very rude for a so called mentor.



So You jump on Dirty Dog for saying
"*I think it's important for people to know when a poster has a severe case of craniorectal impaction."
*But find it totally ok for Alex to say*
"Dirty dog; I will not answer your question. Keep asking, keep receiving silence. 
PM the question. I won't answer it either, it's not your business, and in my eyes, aren't someone worth taking the time to explain. You hold onto the past, petty, and break forum rules doing so. Meh to you."*


----------



## Chris Parker (Sep 15, 2012)

Tames D said:


> So what is your purpose with this statment (in bold)? Is this your opinion or do you know something we don't? Very rude for a so called mentor.



Tames, speaking as a fellow Mentor with Dirty Dog, yeah, there might be one or two things that we know that others don't, but that's actually not the relevant bit here. To understand why Alex receives the posts, it's probably a good idea to look to his background on this site... most specifically the number of his threads that have ended up being moved to The Great Debate area.

Here's some reading material:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/101871-Difference-Between-Hitting-Too-Hard-and-Being-Too-Experienced

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/102225-Sparring-Fighting-Drunk
(One of the ones moved to the Great Debate)

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/101984-Zenjael-s-Self-Defense-Methodologies
(Another moved to the Great Debate)

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/102791-Police-Response

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/103644-Can-Anyone-Identify-This-Technique-For-Me

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/101737-A-theory-on-Ki-and-Chi

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/102331-Okinawan-Karate
(Another TGD thread)

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/101735-Baguazhang
(And one more TGD thread).

As you can see, questioning Alex and what he puts forth as "reality" is really an approach that has a lot of merit. Especially for anyone who hasn't encountered him before, and might take what he's saying as accurate. Speaking of which, I might take a look through that OP we have here, and see what I can find there... hmm....


----------



## Xue Sheng (Sep 15, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> Dirty dog; I will not answer your question. Keep asking, keep receiving silence.
> 
> PM the question. I won't answer it either, it's not your business, and in my eyes, aren't someone worth taking the time to explain. You hold onto the past, petty, and break forum rules doing so. Meh to you.
> 
> You can attack me, or be mature and move on. Your choice, you're essentially talking to yourself each time you ask. Have fun playing with yourself in that regard.



Alex if you make extrodinary claims expect to be asked for an explination 

Flail chest Treatment
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flail_chest#Treatment


----------



## Chris Parker (Sep 15, 2012)

Right. Let's see what we have here, then.



Zenjael said:


> *I will highlight the portions I believe will allow for a faster read,* but what I don't of course is there to be read by whoever wants.



Okay, the first thing I'm going to say is that this is a lot better written than many of your previous efforts... there's no mis-used words or terms, and only a few cases of confusing grammar... but I do have to ask, if the bulk isn't considered important for people to read, why put it down? To that end, as you might expect, I'm dealing with the whole thing.



Zenjael said:


> This began about 4 months back. I take perhaps too much pride in my handwork, and it's speed, and for the first time in a while, I was pure outclassed. This was a person who had well more than a foot and a half on me (this means nothing outside of reach), and his striking power was far stronger. Physically, he was in much better shape. In a drill, and in sparring, he definately outpunched me. It is rare for a person to land a strike, especially a hand technique on me. In a standard sparring drill, I will allow the person to make head contact 2-3 times, when against equal or higher, I do not. Despite being vastly inexperienced comparatively(He had 6 years of boxing, and a 1st dan in kendo whereas I have dan's in a multitude of arts ranging almost 20 years) he outfought me. Yes, I was not focusing, and yes, I was drifting because of the repetitiveness of the drill. After 10,000 times of, 'left side attack, right side block, etc, etc...' sometimes your zombie subconscious takes over. But even despite that, at 100%, fully focused and expecting everything he threw, the result would have been the same.



And here is more of what we expect from you... 

Yes, you have too much pride in your handwork. If you have any, then you have too much. We've seen it, remember. (For any who are unsure, Alex is the shorter of the two in the above linked clip, in the darker top and long pants).

The rest of this entire paragraph is self-congratulatory garbage, showing you as living in your own land of self delusion. Frankly, I'm not surprised that you were outclassed. I'd say someone with six months in a boxing gym would outclass you pretty damn easily, six years is hardly needed.



Zenjael said:


> *But what got to me was something he said, and I apologize for not being to quote him. In his own words, he would rather be a better fighter, than someone who works on perfecting the techniques. Essentially, he'd rather be better at fighting, than at doing say the forms, or philosophical side of the arts.*



Uh... he's a boxer and Kendoka, yeah? Aside from Kendo no Kata, which is typically only done by more senior people with any regularity or focus anyway, what forms would he have been doing? This is part of why we don't tend to believe a lot of what you say, it goes against your own claims or statements. But even with that said, in order to be a better boxer (fighter), you need to get as good as you can with the techniques of boxing... to score in Kendo, it needs to be a technically correct strike... so I'm not sure what you're thinking the distinction is between becoming a better fighter and perfecting techniques. Neither of which are anything to do with the "philosophical side of the arts".



Zenjael said:


> I am not a good fighter, but* I believe with every growth in martial arts, it forces one's ability to fight, one's ability to grow as well*, to justify that rank. Overwise how else could one have been said to grow. It's why when I was 6 I was picked on mercilessly. 16 years later, and multiple rankings, I haven't had that problem in as long as I can recall.



Huh?

You're not a good fighter, but as you progress through martial arts, you are forced to become a good fighter, so if you've progressed through martial arts, then you're a good fighter? So have you not progressed through the martial arts then? And if so, what has your "multiple rankings" have to do with any of this? Or are you now a good fighter, in which case what was the first statement about?



Zenjael said:


> But what this first dan said made me begin to listen. *I know countless people who cannot name the style of their martial art (these are those who say they do WTF or ITF Tae Kwon Do as though those are the styles) or cannot differentiate between penetrating, penetration, and so on, concerning strikes.* Or even worse, say they do one style, when in fact they really do another. This is notoriously commong with chung do kwan, moo duk kwan, and tang soo do. And Tae Kwon Do is by no means alone. You can watch a  multitude of different aikido styles, and yet none look remotely how O-sensei, the creator of the art, conducts himself. My point is this; *how can one actually be skilled, an expert, a master, when they are like that? Cannot even truly nomenclate and identify what their doing.*



What on earth are you going on about here? WTF and ITF are organizational bodies that govern different groups of TKD, so in a way, they are styles, as it's simply a way of saying which of the two dominant approaches is being followed. I'd hardly think that, if you probed further, they couldn't tell you which exact form of TKD within those organizations they are a part of... and as far as "countless people" not being able to name the exact form of martial arts they study, I really, really, really doubt that. Next, differentiating between "penetrating, penetration, and so on, concerning strikes"? And here was I thinking you were making more sense this time around.... Alex, "penetrating" is the action during the event, "penetration" is the observation of the action after the event... there really isn't a difference.

When we get to Aikido (leaving, for the moment, that Moo Duk Kwan is Tang Soo Do, as is Chung Do Kwan, when it all comes down to it), what are you talking about here? How exactly do you have a clue what Ueshiba did, and how it compares to the forms of Aikido found today? And, more to the point, if Aikido has evolved into a range of expressions, what's the point of your statement? (Oh, and in terms of your phrasing, "how O-Sensei, the creator of the art, conducts himself", uh, seeing as he died in 1969, he doesn't really conduct himself so much these days, in any way). Each different form of Aikido is a form of Aikido... it can trace itself back to Ueshiba, sometimes to a particular stage of his development of the art, so what are you talking about? And your final, bolded statements, wow, what are you on about? You really don't seem to have a clue about what makes something a martial art there, son, or how one would attain actual skill, or be considered a master in one.



Zenjael said:


> *I believe all true martial artists are fighters, or at least all skilled martial artists are.* But I've met a lot of people who call themselves martial artists, wear a black belt, and could care a fig about their technique, form, or insight, and would rather show up on Saturday mornings and dominate.



For crying out loud... so you, being a "phenomenal martial artist" (yeah, I skipped ahead there), but being "not a good fighter", means you here are not a "true martial artist", or a "skilled martial artist"? As for the rest, I think you're projecting there.



Zenjael said:


> *I just thought I'd share that I think that there is a difference between a fighter and a martial artist.* While the latter may all, to some degree be the former, I consider it a loss, in terms of my artistic ability, if I triumphed in a confrontation, but was sloppy.



Firstly, why should we think, based on the complete lack of knowledge, insight, understanding, and education you've shown, let alone actual ability, that you would be in any position to comment on what a martial artist even is, let alone what any difference would be between a "martial artist and a fighter"? But secondly, just because you have a particularly (and highly impractical) viewpoint, what makes you think that that should, or even would apply to anyone else? 



Zenjael said:


> I may be a crap fighter, but I consider myself a phenomenal martial artists. I am not prideful of that as much as some would think, for there are always other things I have to learn and grow in, and always others who are far superior to me, no matter my place. I say that with humility; but I would rather be a martial artist, than a fighter. Does not the artist practice his art to perfection, so he may never have to use it?



Right. "Phenomenal martial artist". Based on what, exactly? Cause, again, the complete lack of knowledge, insight, understanding, education, and skill seems to belie that idea... And I'm not dealing with the contradictions of this paragraph.... it's just too much of a headache. But to answer the last question you have there, no. In the majority of cases, particularly in sporting systems, the idea of using the art (in the competitions) is very much part of why you train in it.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Sep 15, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> I think it's important for people to know when a poster has a severe case of craniorectal impaction.





Tames D said:


> So what is your purpose with this statment (in bold)? Is this your opinion or do you know something we don't? Very rude for a so called mentor.



It's a diagnosis. Not one you'll find a DRG for, admittedly, but I believe it is accurate. Try reading a few of his phenomenal posts.


----------



## MJS (Sep 15, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> Alex... you're back...
> 
> Are you ready to answer my questions now? The ones you keep dodging?
> 
> ...



Well, you and I both know the answer.


----------



## MJS (Sep 15, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> *I will highlight the portions I believe will allow for a faster read,* but what I don't of course is there to be read by whoever wants.
> 
> This began about 4 months back. I take perhaps too much pride in my handwork, and it's speed, and for the first time in a while, I was pure outclassed. This was a person who had well more than a foot and a half on me (this means nothing outside of reach), and his striking power was far stronger. Physically, he was in much better shape. In a drill, and in sparring, he definately outpunched me. It is rare for a person to land a strike, especially a hand technique on me. In a standard sparring drill, I will allow the person to make head contact 2-3 times, when against equal or higher, I do not. Despite being vastly inexperienced comparatively(He had 6 years of boxing, and a 1st dan in kendo whereas I have dan's in a multitude of arts ranging almost 20 years) he outfought me. Yes, I was not focusing, and yes, I was drifting because of the repetitiveness of the drill. After 10,000 times of, 'left side attack, right side block, etc, etc...' sometimes your zombie subconscious takes over. But even despite that, at 100%, fully focused and expecting everything he threw, the result would have been the same.
> 
> ...



Well, as someone else said, just because one trains, doesnt automatically mean they're going to be good at what they're doing.  One can train for 10yrs, and one would assume that would mean they'd be capable of dealing with a fight, but in fact, thats not always the case.  

IMHO, the arts were designed for fighting.  That being said, I feel that if you are with the right teachers and training partners, and of course, if you follow their advice, and training methods, that the MAist will also be a great fighter.


----------



## MJS (Sep 15, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> [YT]EkiKjJ4ybu4[/YT]
> 
> Oh yeah, you're phenomenal all right... anybody still got the link to his knife demo? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:



:lol: Ahh....I almost forgot about this.  Good Lord.......


----------



## MJS (Sep 15, 2012)

And I'm sorry to say, that much like some of the other threads, this one will most likely implode very soon.  It's like 2 trains heading towards each other on the same track.  Nothing good ever comes of that.


----------



## Tames D (Sep 15, 2012)

K-man said:


> I'm going to stick my head up in support of *Dirty Dog*, not that he can't stand up for himself but just to know he is not the only one who thinks Alex has his head up his #£&.    If you have followed Alex's posts over he past six months you wouldn't have asked the question.  Every second post contains something that contradicts the post before and the level of misinformation or lack of understanding is profound.  Yet Alex still finds it necessary to tell us at every opportunity: _"I consider myself a phenomenal martial artist".
> 
> _I take everyone at face value.  We are all martial artists of differing rank and time in service.  We all put forward our thoughts and I respect those even if I disagree with the ideas expounded, especially in 'The Study'.  But what I cannot stand is someone with obviously little knowledge or ability putting themselves up as an expert and making claims that do not stand up to scrutiny.
> 
> In particular, the claim of fighting with '_shattered_' ribs and having them set to continue was interesting to say the least. If someone tells the truth about themselves they will not have an issue with me, but sometimes we need to run the BS flag up the pole, even if it could be considered rude.         :asian:



I do know all about Alex and I agree with everyones opinion.


----------



## Tames D (Sep 15, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> So You jump on Dirty Dog for saying
> "*I think it's important for people to know when a poster has a severe case of craniorectal impaction."
> *But find it totally ok for Alex to say*
> "Dirty dog; I will not answer your question. Keep asking, keep receiving silence.
> PM the question. I won't answer it either, it's not your business, and in my eyes, aren't someone worth taking the time to explain. You hold onto the past, petty, and break forum rules doing so. Meh to you."*



Dirty Dog is a Mentor. Alex is not.


----------



## Zenjael (Sep 15, 2012)

Hoo boy, lot to reply to. I'll do it in order, and make it as succinct as possible.

*Kempodisciple*; I do not think the world is out to get me. But when the first reply is what it was, that's just insulting. 

*Richparsons*; the exchange I had brought to mind that while I've met many good fighters in the martial arts, I actually haven't met as many as I thought I had. It raised this question to me; is it better to be a better fighter, or a better martial artist? To me its the latter. My hopes with this post is that martial artists all would prefer to be better at that than being a thug who can throw a punch, so to speak. The post, at least I had hoped, left one or two readers asking themself the question of which theyd rather be. Is that not worth bringing up as a topic?

*Iklawson*; You are right. However, I said that because that's exactly on the certificate I have. Heck, looking at it now it reads Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do. Funny, though mines on paper of course. You know probably better than most tae kwon do has a very... obfuscated history in a myriad of ways. I was trying to simplify, but you are absolutely right in your point. I honor you for that pin you possess, btw.

*Geezer*; the contradiction is only one because I began martial arts in the early 90s with the advent of those 'turtle' or 'lil'ninja' programs. Did I learn how to throw a front and back punch, and how to do a front kick, and front stance by the time I was 2? Yes. But I would say that I actually began training when I was 4, and in the childrens class for underbelts. I am only trying to be truthful with my own background. I say 20 years because it's true. But I'd say I actually started when I was 4, because that's when it stopped being babysitting, and actual focus on the arts.

I consider myself, and Ill use the word again, a phenomenal martial artist because others who are masters have said this to me. Am I wrong to repeat what others have felt I deserve to be labeled? But prideful? That is something else. One can be honest about one's ability, how one is good, and where one needs work. Most of the people I know, have no idea I practice. It's a topic I really only bring up (martial arts) at the dojo, with training partners, and here. Why? Martial arts is about deception, and a part of that is not to attract overt amounts of attention to oneself.

Pride is wearing your art on your sleeve like a badge. I don't feel right calling myself prideful, when being humble is how so many teachers have let me become their student, and honored me in return. Amazing martial artist? Sure, why not. But there are a lot better, and a lot more whom I could learn from. And I am being honest when I say that I am of that calibur of an artist. But I could also grow more. 

But better? Than who? The only person I'm competing against is myself, and I'm both the winner and loser in that race.

*Cyriacus*; Is it not humble that the person who would consider himself good, would create a post on a public sphere exploring how he was bested. Being a phenomenal, a good martial artist is just that. And when someone is one, they know, and should be able to speak freely about it. Nowhere do you see me stating I'm better than anyone else.

The only way to grow as a 'fighter' is by doing as you said.

I think many though think that when I mean fighter, I am referring to a martial artist who focuses on the combat side. I'm not; I'm referring to people who neglect almost all aspects of the art, and focus only on fighting.

And by outfought, what does that mean to you? That he pummeled me into the ground? That isn't what I meant.

*TonyDismukes*; Part of my training took place in my childhood. The meat of it, the actual training began at 10 and has never stopped. I practice 3 times a day for an hour each, on top of a morning and night static stretching. I never stopped training, save once, for a short period of time.

The video being referred to is often used as an example by others to prove a point completely irregardless to why the video was made, and posted. I think I've heard so many criticisms on it some even contradict. I posted that video after one of my first threads where it became common view that I do not use control in contact fighting. The video is proof of how erred that is. It was not to demonstrate awesome ability, or perfect technique, it was only some of the style I employ, and how I do have considerable control.

As for people not knowing the name of their own style, it's much more important in the Japanese arts to fully appreciate the technique, art, and founders. I recently visited a school where a martial artist employing the Jhoon Rhee system of forms claimed he was a Moo Duk Kwan practitioner. It's a problem, perhaps it's one mainly with TKD. 

Perfect technique I suppose is a misnomer, for the definition of perfection in its own right can disavow the possibility of it happening. Good technique is about executing the technique as it is meant to be, correctly, for the sake of the technique itself, and the art. How often have you sparred someone proud of say their roundhouse, so they flit it out, even when out of range? It's about right movement for the sake of harmony. And when you actually have a combat with true rapport between practitioners... there's a lot less violence than there is harmony.

And by phenomenal martial artist I mean this; someone who practices their art with integrity. The kind of person who if they do a repetition of 20 and make 1 mistake, start all over, ad infinitude until they get it right, or can no longer move. Someone who others come to for advice for how they can improve, and in the interaction, both grow. Phenomenal is too small a word to describe what I mean, but we all know those artists who are like this. They practice not to be cool, not to win, but for the sake of the art itself, and the love of it. You can't define someone like that with just one word, and when you try, it merely makes it seem like they're bragging, or others are talking them up.

The person I respect as a martial artist is he who recognizes it as the art of harmony between body and else, and we learn this in the martial arts more than just by punching and blocking.

But... I also tie my spirituality in Buddhism closely to my martial arts, so I understand my definition is rather unorthodox, or could be considered so.

*Wc_Lun*; martial arts is my spirituality, alongside my mahayana beliefs. And they compliment each other well, I might add. I always love that old cliche, but I have a simple response to it; ditch the cup, get a bowl.

Knowledge is truth. Truth doesn't conflict with other truth. Likewise, I've noticed that the different styles I can utilize tend not to conflict unless I'm forcing them too.

But experienced... I'll buy that I could use more. But then again I've been mugged twice, stopped two assaults, a convenience store robbery, and just recently someone trying to attack me drunkenly. You tell me how much more experience I need for me to know if my art works or not. I seem to be perfectly fine .

*Dirty-dog; *As I said before, you focus on the past. The knife demonstration was when I was in high school, and look closely- those are steak knives. Not combat. Not competition, kitchen cutlery. That entire form was made up, and done to demonstrate a point- that, that particular tournament had a serious problem judging fairly. The fact you actually look at that video and consider it an exhibition of who I am as an artist... why would I keep bantering with you when you can't even glean the actual message behind the video.

It seems the greatest point of contention in this post is my use of that word 'phenomenal'. I have no problem saying I'm not then, if it will appease the masses on this board. But when ability is something subjective, especially in this art, than no one can apply that title to themself. And that's wrong. A martial artist should have integrity, and that includes honesty. And if they are good at what they do, it would be wrong to say otherwise. No one on this board has met me, let alone taken the time to actually practice either with, or against me in a match. It's like blowing hot air until you do, especially when you point to examples of me from 6 years ago, when I'm 22 now. Granted not a long time to pass, but it offers an infinite amount of time to improve with dedication.

I don't walk around calling myself the best artist alive. I am content in just being a martial artist.  And that's the thing K-man; for someone who touts experience as the pre-requisite for you to respect them, you are being terribly hypocritical by not in turn giving me that respect in turn. Because this is martial arts, and you know what, my experience in the arts has probably been much longer, and even if much shorter, is just as valuable as the time you've spent.

I've had plenty of injuries I've fought through- it's called perseverance, a trait all true martial artists should have, I think.

*Chris Parker*; One of my other hobbies is writing. The non-bolded is just background for anyone who may want to read it. I enjoy reading as much as possible, so if I were say reading my post, I'd read the unbolded too, just so I can get more background info. It may not be necessary, but it could help clarify, which we all well know is a difficulty with me.

I wish I could edit that actually; I meant the shodan in Kendo to be applicable toward my background, not his. Such is typing when tired. You, and others make an absolutely valid point that depending on the context of match, how strikes land matter in sport/arts like Kendo. In boxing, the constant improvement of technique is what enables growth. And there is a philosophical side to it- does one focus on sparring, or working with the teacher in private to perfect that technique. I'm of the mind if you perfect the technique, with time and practicing it pragmatically with another one becomes a better fighter.

I would say Chris, on a board like this, where I do not compete I have no place to say whether I'm a good, or a bad fighter. And besides the point, the effectiveness of our fighting is circumstantial at all times, even when the odds are all in our favor. It just seemed prudent that if I'm trying to make a contrast between the arts, and fighting, than if I'm going to put myself in the white as a good martial artist it seems fair that I also admit that I feel I could be a better fighter. I don't compete any longer either.

I noticed my typo as well Chris, but too late for me to edit it. What I mean is; penetrating, transference, pushing types of strikes. My b on the typo.

*I'll end my reply on this; I consider myself a well read, and educated individual. But I could always learn more. It's the same thing for martial arts, and I well understand that I have decades to continue.* If me considering myself an above average offends, that really isn't on me. But since the last person who told me that is a 5th dan of over 50 years, I don't mind repeating it. But it takes others of equal pride to take offense at someone they think is pride. I am prideful; of the arts, and that I've been allowed to take part in them. But going around thinking I'm better than everyone else? Which seems to be the kind of pride incensing people here...

This whole thread gave me a good laugh- thank you guys for your responses, I actually got some awesome answers for once. It is true, there are multiple paths to martial arts, and it means something to each of us, in our own way. That's not something which is always easy to remember, but I thank you all for the reminder.


----------



## Chris Parker (Sep 15, 2012)

Oh dear lord....

A slightly abbreviated response (for the benefit of those reading):



Zenjael said:


> *Geezer*; the contradiction is only one because I began martial arts in the early 90s with the advent of those 'turtle' or 'lil'ninja' programs. Did I learn how to throw a front and back punch, and how to do a front kick, and front stance by the time I was 2? Yes. But I would say that I actually began training when I was 4, and in the childrens class for underbelts. I am only trying to be truthful with my own background. I say 20 years because it's true. But I'd say I actually started when I was 4, because that's when it stopped being babysitting, and actual focus on the arts.



You were 4. It was still babysitting. And remained so for a long time. In fact, from all evidence, I don't know if it's stopped being so yet.



Zenjael said:


> I consider myself, and Ill use the word again, a phenomenal martial artist because others who are masters have said this to me. Am I wrong to repeat what others have felt I deserve to be labeled? But prideful? That is something else. One can be honest about one's ability, how one is good, and where one needs work. Most of the people I know, have no idea I practice. It's a topic I really only bring up (martial arts) at the dojo, with training partners, and here. Why? Martial arts is about deception, and a part of that is not to attract overt amounts of attention to oneself.



You are not "phenomenal". Take it from us. You are, in fact, highly sub-standard for someone who has trained since he was 2.



Zenjael said:


> Pride is wearing your art on your sleeve like a badge. I don't feel right calling myself prideful, when being humble is how so many teachers have let me become their student, and honored me in return. Amazing martial artist? Sure, why not. But there are a lot better, and a lot more whom I could learn from. And I am being honest when I say that I am of that calibur of an artist. But I could also grow more.



"Amazing martial artist? Sure, why not" (in describing yourself)... and you don't think you're being prideful? I'd say you're being unjustifiably arrogant, despite all evidence to the contrary.



Zenjael said:


> *Cyriacus*; Is it not humble that the person who would consider himself good, would create a post on a public sphere exploring how he was bested. Being a phenomenal, a good martial artist is just that. And when someone is one, they know, and should be able to speak freely about it. Nowhere do you see me stating I'm better than anyone else.



No, especially not the way you go about it. As far as not stating anywhere that you're better than anyone? Seriously?

"It is rare for a person to land a strike on me". But you're not stating that you're better than anyone, right? Should we go through the mess of previous threads of yours?



Zenjael said:


> I think many though think that when I mean fighter, I am referring to a martial artist who focuses on the combat side. I'm not; I'm referring to people who neglect almost all aspects of the art, and focus only on fighting.



Honestly, I don't think your construct is placed in reality, mainly as it is contradicted by your own words a number of times.



Zenjael said:


> *TonyDismukes*; Part of my training took place in my childhood. The meat of it, the actual training began at 10 and has never stopped. I practice 3 times a day for an hour each, on top of a morning and night static stretching. I never stopped training, save once, for a short period of time.[/QUOTE
> 
> Practice more. Talk less.
> 
> ...


----------



## Dirty Dog (Sep 15, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> *Dirty-dog; *As I said before, you focus on the past.



I don't have a crystal ball, nor did I attend Hogwarts, so I lack the ability to focus on what nonsense you will post next week. So I focus on your past and current nonsense. Especially the impossible claims you make.



Zenjael said:


> The knife demonstration was when I was in high school, and look closely- those are steak knives. Not combat. Not competition, kitchen cutlery. That entire form was made up, and done to demonstrate a point- that, that particular tournament had a serious problem judging fairly. The fact you actually look at that video and consider it an exhibition of who I am as an artist... why would I keep bantering with you when you can't even glean the actual message behind the video.



I've seen more people killed with kitchen cutlery than "combat" knives. And the only thing one can glean from that video (or the one I linked) is that you really are NOT a "phenomenal martial artist".



Zenjael said:


> It seems the greatest point of contention in this post is my use of that word 'phenomenal'.



Well, no, it's with your habit of posting impossible claims and other nonsense.



Zenjael said:


> A martial artist should have integrity, and that includes honesty.



OK, then have the integrity to answer direct questions, instead of dodging them. 

[Remainder of self-agrandizement deleted]


----------



## oaktree (Sep 15, 2012)

Getting into the spiritual side and/or philosophy side
Is fine but do not neglect you are learning a MARTIAL ART
Were at times in history people depended on said
Art with their lives.  So train with the intent that your martial
Art training is there to protect your life.

Multiple Dan grades don't mean anything
but the paper its printed on. What matters
Is can you successfully defend yourself.

You may want to evaluate yourself and examine
Your weakness and ask the boxer for assistance.


----------



## MJS (Sep 15, 2012)

I'm not included in this list, but I'll comment on a few things:




Zenjael said:


> Hoo boy, lot to reply to. I'll do it in order, and make it as succinct as possible.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Sep 15, 2012)

> Part of my training took place in my childhood. The meat of it, the actual training began at 10 and has never stopped.



I wasn't sure I wanted to join in the dogpile at this point, but since no one else has bothered to mention it yet ...
At 10 years old - you were still a child and would be for a number of years after that.  You've just confirmed what I said in my initial post - most of your years of training were in your childhood.



> One of my other hobbies is writing.



I'm not as persnickety as Chris when it comes to complaining about poor writing in forum posts.  It's a martial arts forum.  Not everybody knows how to write well.  If you do your best to communicate your point, I'll do my best to understand what you're trying to say.

That said, if writing really is a hobby of yours, you may want to devote some time to refining your basics.  As others have noted, you have a strong tendency to misuse words, misuse grammar, and ramble through your paragraphs in a way which obscures rather than clarifies your point.  I'm not judging you on that.  Lots of people that I really respect don't know how to write well.  However, if writing coherently is important to you, you may want to pay attention to some of the feedback you're getting.


----------



## Chris Parker (Sep 15, 2012)

Hey Tony,

To be fair, I did point out that, as Alex stated that he learnt to throw "front and back punches, front kicks, stand in a front stance" at the age of two, he didn't start in a school until he was 4... and that that was when it stopped being "babysitting". My comment was that that was still babysitting, and would be for quite a while after that.

With the writing, I'm not so much frustrated with the mistakes, it's the constant mistakes despite constant correction and pointing out of said errors (not, as Alex would say, said errs), and his frankly flaky excuses that his use of words he doesn't know the meaning or correct usage of is due to his using them "academically", or, as above, because "writing is a hobby" of his... if either of those were the real case, then we wouldn't have such prevalence of problems. At least, that's my opine (ha!)....


----------



## lklawson (Sep 15, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> With the writing, I'm not so much frustrated with the mistakes, it's the constant mistakes despite constant correction and pointing out of said errors (not, as Alex would say, said errs), and his frankly flaky excuses that his use of words he doesn't know the meaning or correct usage of is due to his using them "academically", or, as above, because "writing is a hobby" of his... if either of those were the real case, then we wouldn't have such prevalence of problems. At least, that's my opine (ha!)....


One of the problems with Writing (capital W) is that there are so many distinct and specific styles.  Academic writing, papers, themes, dissertations, etc. are different stylistically from user manuals, instructional manuals, handbooks, etc., which are different stylistically from "informational" writing such as news stories, magazine stories, etc., which is different from "conversational" writing, to say nothing of "Fiction."

Of course, none of this young man's writing would qualify for any of these discernible styles of writing and none of it is even close to anything remotely acceptable as "Academic."  It's all crap and trying to write in this style for a collegiate level class would quickly result in failures.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## WC_lun (Sep 15, 2012)

Alex, I am Buhdhist.  How you describe yourself and what you are doing does not show an understanding of the trifold path, as I know it.  You act like you know so much, but are easily seen through by people who have already been there.  There is something to be said about truthfullness as well.  Some of your posts are easily dismissed and seen through as fantasy.  You come to a board full of beginning martial artist, intermediate martial artist, and martial artist who have been training longer than you have been drawing air into you lungs and want to lecture us all on how great you are and what a phenomenal martial artist you are.  No son, you aren't.  Giving you the benefit of the doubt, your belief might not be your fault.  If you have someone telling you that you are great all the time to build up your self confidence, it has worked well.  However, they are decieving you and you are decieving yourself.  I've only ever said this to a few martial students in quite a many years.  Shut up, open your ears, and just train.  Stop trying to be something you aren't and let your hard work put you where you want to be.  Right now, cup or bowl all you are doing is spilling tea.


----------



## geezer (Sep 15, 2012)

lklawson said:


> One of the problems with Writing (capital W) is that there are so many distinct and specific styles...
> 
> Of course, none of this young man's writing would qualify for any of these discernible styles of writing.



No, his writing is not exemplary of any of the styles you mentioned, but it is pretty typical juvenile internet patter. I have no problem with Alex's casual and imperfect style of writing. There's plenty worse to be found. Like Chris, my problem is entirely with _what_ he has to say rather than _how_ he says it. It is kind of funny though, how he apparently sees himself as a phenomenal writer as well as martial artist. I suspect he is very young, perhaps younger than he admits, and to be generous, perhaps it's simply his youth and inexperience that lead him to blur reality and fantasy.  

Or on the other hand Dirty Dog may have had the correct diagnosis!


----------



## lklawson (Sep 15, 2012)

geezer said:


> No, his writing is not exemplary of any of the styles you mentioned, but it is pretty typical juvenile internet patter. I have no problem with Alex's casual and imperfect style of writing. There's plenty worse to be found. Like Chris, my problem is entirely with _what_ he has to say rather than _how_ he says it. It is kind of funny though, how he apparently sees himself as a phenomenal writer as well as martial artist. I suspect he is very young, perhaps younger than he admits, and to be generous, perhaps it's simply his youth and inexperience that lead him to blur reality and fantasy.


I agree that he certainly *sounds* 14 or 15.



> Or on the other hand Dirty Dog may have had the correct diagnosis!


I've actually noticed this a lot in the last 20 years or so.  I think it has to do with the emphasis in modern society with building up self esteem by constant, and often unmerited, praise.  Makes 'em think they're way better than they are.  I think Cracked did an article with that as an element.  Gimme a tic to try to dig it up.

Ah.  

http://www.cracked.com/article/85_6-********-facts-about-psychology-that-everyone-believes/
http://www.cracked.com/article/195_7-things-good-parents-do-that-screw-up-kids-life_p2/


Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## lklawson (Sep 15, 2012)

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Aiki Lee (Sep 15, 2012)

Zenjael, at what age did you start training seriously in martial arts? I too started as a child, but didn't take it seriously until I was 14. So instead of saying I have been training since age 6, I say I've been training since 14. So for you, at what age did you realize that martial arts are not really what they are presented to be to children?


----------



## Cyriacus (Sep 15, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> *Cyriacus*; Is it not humble that the person who would consider himself good, would create a post on a public sphere exploring how he was bested. Being a phenomenal, a good martial artist is just that. And when someone is one, they know, and should be able to speak freely about it. Nowhere do you see me stating I'm better than anyone else.
> 
> The only way to grow as a 'fighter' is by doing as you said.
> 
> ...



I know what You meant. You got knocked in the head more than Youd like by someone whos spent many years practising the sweet science of "Punch His Head Off" (For others reading, pinch of salt. Especially You Mister Lawson  ).
Like I say though - If You wish to focus on Techniques and Forms, I wish You good luck! But as has been mentioned, Boxing doesnt have Forms, and Kendo has one that many never actually learn. 
Now, to the bold:
Fighting and Combat are a bit different, but Im not too picky, I know what You mean. There are many elements to focus on in Martial Arts, from Fighting to Exercise to Philosophy and so forth. What You focus on is up to You, and being branded as someone whos 'neglecting' everything else in the Art is a falsehood. Youve chosen what You want to focus on, others have chosen differently. I could say that Youre neglecting the fighting side of Martial Arts, by not focusing on it. Much like how Youre saying that Theyre neglecting the Technical Spiritual side of Martial Arts by not focusing on it.


----------



## Tames D (Sep 15, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> It's a diagnosis. Not one you'll find a DRG for, admittedly, but I believe it is accurate. Try reading a few of his phenomenal posts.



I didn't realize you are a Doctor. My sincere apologies. Where is your practice?


----------



## Dirty Dog (Sep 15, 2012)

Tames D said:


> I didn't realize you are a Doctor. My sincere apologies. Where is your practice?



I'm an ER/Flight nurse in Colorado.


----------



## Tames D (Sep 15, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> Tames, speaking as a fellow Mentor with Dirty Dog, yeah, there might be one or two things that we know that others don't, but that's actually not the relevant bit here. To understand why Alex receives the posts, it's probably a good idea to look to his background on this site... most specifically the number of his threads that have ended up being moved to The Great Debate area.
> 
> Here's some reading material:
> 
> ...



Chris Chris Chris... I love you dude but why do you get caught up in all this BS with trolls. Let it go. You're Mentor. You're supposed to be above this. Like Dirty Dog, you are being sucked in to the troll world by this guy. You guys are doing exactly what he wants.  And you have a problem with me? C'mon man, rise above this ****. I think you can do better. Remember... you're a Mentor, your job is to encourage people. You don't have to prove a point with low life nobodies.


----------



## Tames D (Sep 15, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> I'm an ER/Flight nurse in Colorado.



And this qualifies you to offer a diagnosis without examining the patient? Does your position allow you to legally offer a diagnoses at all? Not trying to be a problem, just would like to know what your qualifications are to be doing this over the internet.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Sep 15, 2012)

Tames D said:


> And this qualifies you to offer a diagnosis without examining the patient? Does your position allow you to legally offer a diagnoses at all? Not tying to be a problem, just would like to know what your qualifications are to be doing this over the internet.



For the diagnosis of craniorectal impaction, it ain't difficult.

I've examined his tests (his posts) and the diagnosis is clear.


----------



## Tames D (Sep 15, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> For the diagnosis of craniorectal impaction, it ain't difficult.
> 
> I've examined his tests (his posts) and the diagnosis is clear.



Now you're doing what you complain about Alex doing. Answser my question. What are your qualifications to diagnose a patient without examining him/her? Are you a doctor? Does a nurse practitioner have the legal right to do this?


----------



## Dirty Dog (Sep 15, 2012)

Tames D said:


> Now you're doing what you complain about Alex doing. Answser my question. What are your qualifications to diagnose a patient without examining him/her? Are you a doctor? Does a nurse practitioner have the legal right to do this?



Craniorectal impation isn't a medical diagnosis. I'm pretty sure you know that already.
Anybody can legally diagnosis it.


----------



## geezer (Sep 15, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> For the diagnosis of craniorectal impaction, it ain't difficult. I've examined his tests (his posts) and the diagnosis is clear.



_Dr. Dog_, I absolutely concur. At first I thought it might be I mild case of transitory gluteo-cephalic edema, perhaps brought on by substance abuse. But after reviewing his entire case history up to this point, I agree that it appears to be a case of severe, perhaps irreversible impaction. Of course I'm not a specialist. Perhaps someone can offer a second opinion?


----------



## Tames D (Sep 15, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> Craniorectal impation isn't a medical diagnosis. I'm pretty sure you know that already.
> Anybody can legally diagnosis it.



Excuse me. Post 58 you mentioned it as a diagnosis. So what is it? You're very confusing.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Sep 15, 2012)

Tames D said:


> Excuse me. Post 58 you mentioned it as a diagnosis. So what is it? You're very confusing.



Diagnosis is the identification of the cause of anything. Not everything is medical....

I'm sorry you're confused. Perhaps then use of a dictionary would help?


----------



## Tames D (Sep 15, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> Diagnosis is the identification of the cause of anything. Not everything is medical....
> 
> I'm sorry you're confused. Perhaps then use of a dictionary would help?



Ok, you win Doctor. Or Nurse. Not sure. Still confused about you, LOL.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Sep 15, 2012)

Tames D said:


> Ok, you win Doctor. Or Nurse. Not sure. Still confused about you, LOL.



This thread is not about me, and I have no desire to make it about me. I'm happy to answer questions about myself, but if you want to know about me (as opposed to anything that is actually pertinent to this thread) a PM might be better.


----------



## K-man (Sep 16, 2012)

I'm old enough to remember we've done this before!    ......    and it's just as much fun as last time.     :lfao:

More popcorn anyone?  opcorn:


----------



## Cyriacus (Sep 16, 2012)

K-man said:


> I'm old enough to remember we've done this before!    ......    and it's just as much fun as last time.     :lfao:
> 
> More popcorn anyone?  opcorn:


Is it malign of Me to want to know more about this, so I can enjoy this Spectator Sport as much as You old lingerers? :burp:


----------



## MJS (Sep 16, 2012)

K-man said:


> I'm old enough to remember we've done this before!    ......    and it's just as much fun as last time.     :lfao:
> 
> More popcorn anyone?  opcorn:



Sure, I'll take some. And while we're at it, beer is on me! :cheers:


Yeah, like I said earlier, I'm predicting a train wreck boom sooner than later.


----------



## K-man (Sep 16, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> Is it malign of Me to want to know more about this, so I can enjoy this Spectator Sport as much as You old lingerers? :burp:


Well, it's a matter of chasing up a few old posts, grab a beer and watch a few videos, have laugh and not take it too seriously.  Then it's a bit like watching a couple of bucks belting each other around the ears.   

Cheers.    :drinky:


----------



## Chris Parker (Sep 16, 2012)

Tames D said:


> Chris Chris Chris... I love you dude but why do you get caught up in all this BS with trolls. Let it go. You're Mentor. You're supposed to be above this. Like Dirty Dog, you are being sucked in to the troll world by this guy. You guys are doing exactly what he wants.  And you have a problem with me? C'mon man, rise above this ****. I think you can do better. Remember... you're a Mentor, your job is to encourage people. You don't have to prove a point with low life nobodies.



Hey Tames,

While I get what you're meaning, I disagree with your assessment. The role of Mentors here is to provide good examples to the board, yes, but that doesn't mean that we simply let the sheer volume of garbage that Alex (and others) expel stand unchallenged. In fact, I think it would be showing a worse example if I did just let them be. It would be giving tacet approval to Alex's claims and ideas, which really don't merit any such consideration on their own.

With Alex, though, I'm not convinced he is a troll... I'm more leaning towards him simply being rather delusional, and seeking out comfirmatory experiences. When things don't conform to his preconceived ideas (about his knowledge, understanding, skill level etc), he either completely ignores them, or tries to twist around to show that he was mis-quoted, misunderstood, misinterpreted, or some other such evasion. And as long as he keeps putting such ill-informed nonsense out in the forum, I will correct and counter every part of it... not that I think he'll take anything on board, but more for anyone else (especially beginners, or inexperienced martial artists who might not have joined the forum, and are lurking) to avoid them accepting his words as being correct. And to that end, I tend not to respond overly emotionally (somewhat exasperated, I will admit), but more in line with correcting the mistakes on a factual basis. So what would be the better course of action, letting Alex write what he does, unchallenged, and leave it up to the kids who would be taken in by Ashida Kim, Rod Sacharnowski, Bruce Calkins and the like to decide on the merit of it, or to provide counter argument so that the limitations and issues in his words?

But no, I don't have any problem with you at all, Tames. Quite the opposite. I honestly don't know where you got the impression from... but no, I really don't. I just think we have different impressions of what is happening, and the reasons for it (on both Alex's and my sides).


----------



## jks9199 (Sep 16, 2012)

Folks,
Ordinarily, the Mod Staff here doesn't take action in threads they're involved in.  However, I think this has gone hopelessly off track, and I'll admit my own contribution to that, and I'll even publicly apologize for it.

That said -- I'm locking the thread.  Maybe Alex'd like to repost the premise, with some editing/refinement (like dumping the parts about how he's phenomenal and sticking to the meat about the difference between a fighter and martial artist) and we can actually discuss it seriously...


----------

