# Joint Locks



## Eric Daniel (Oct 10, 2005)

Why do Martial Artist use joint locks? I know there are a few joint locks in aikido like nikkyo, sankyo, yonkyo, and others. What are they used for? Restraining an opponent, Controling an opponent, submission? What if someone resists the joint lock? (I would hit them if they resist). how many of you have studied or know how to get out of these locks?


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## mantis (Oct 10, 2005)

Eric Daniel said:
			
		

> Why do Martial Artist use joint locks? I know there are a few joint locks in aikido like nikkyo, sankyo, yonkyo, and others. What are they used for? Restraining an opponent, Controling an opponent, submission? What if someone resists the joint lock? (I would hit them if they resist). how many of you have studied or know how to get out of these locks?


 sounds like u've never been in a joint lock!
 my friend, there was nothing i can do about it when i was in join locks.
 i mean the guy, who is my teacher too, would walk and drag me with him anywhere, and he was just toss me on the ground, or take me from a painful lock to another! 
 in chin'na i was taught to lock, throw on the ground or hit, then run away. more for self-defense


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## shesulsa (Oct 10, 2005)

Eric Daniel said:
			
		

> Why do Martial Artist use joint locks? I know there are a few joint locks in aikido like nikkyo, sankyo, yonkyo, and others. What are they used for? Restraining an opponent, Controling an opponent, submission? What if someone resists the joint lock? (I would hit them if they resist). how many of you have studied or know how to get out of these locks?


 Joint locks are used for all of the above and there are always counters.  Part of the training for joint locks is to know what to do when someone resists or tries to counter.

 BTW - what style do you train?


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## Navarre (Oct 10, 2005)

errr, yeah...let someone who knows how to properly lock apply a joint lock to you. If it's locked, there's not much room in your pain-wracked mind for struggle.

 The best way to counter is to have practiced to the point that you "flow", feeling the lock coming and continuing in natural motion with it until you float into a counter or out of it. I've seen good artists flow through a dozen locks, one melding right into the next counter, before one of them finally gets the lock cinched.  

 Once locked in, it's really hard to get out no matter how tough you are.  Many locks rely on the pain reaction to incapacitate an opponent. 

 Therefore, one must be careful of opponents who are high or inebriated because they don't have the same pain reaction. Of course, drunk or not, a broken arm kinda slows you down.

 Locks are generally used to control the situation to prevent extreme harm. For that reason I prefer locks in general to kicking the crap out of someone.  In extreme situations, it is easy to go straight for the sprain or break. It's all a matter of cinching tightly, feeling the opponent's motion, having the right angle, and knowing your control.

 I trained for over 10 years in karate without ever learning real locks. Now, after 22 years of karate and 10 years of ju-jitsu, I consider joint locks one of the most effective weapons in my physical arsenal.

 Different arts approach locks a bit differently. Absorb, evaluate, and apply what works for you.


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## mantis (Oct 10, 2005)

sorry..
 double post


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## mantis (Oct 10, 2005)

Navarre said:
			
		

> errr, yeah...let someone who knows how to properly lock apply a joint lock to you. If it's locked, there's not much room in your pain-wracked mind for struggle.
> 
> The best way to counter is to have practiced to the point that you "flow", feeling the lock coming and continuing in natural motion with it until you float into a counter or out of it. I've seen good artists flow through a dozen locks, one melding right into the next counter, before one of them finally gets the lock cinched.
> 
> ...


 You study Karate and JJ, right?
 Both of these two arts are hard and external, right?
 do they emphasize any circular motion?
 coz right before you get locked you have a chance of preventing the lock if you can know how to twist your arm out of it, right?
 also, in JJ if you are locked you can unlock yourself and lock the oponent back. is there any end to this?
 like what's your goal? run a way? kill the guy? lock him?


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## Navarre (Oct 10, 2005)

Yes, I study both karate and ju-jitsu.  My training is interesting.  

 Karate is typically thought of as a hard art yet my training was as spiritual as it was physical. We worked a lot on meditation, focusing ki, self-awareness, as well as blocks and strikes.  

 My ju-jitsu training uses very flowing techniques but wasn't backed by much spiritual training at all. My instructor emphasized physical flow over anything else.

 My karate style worked a whole lot on angles, positioning oneself at an angle that avoided the opponent's strike while enabling our own. Our strikes also worked smoothly, always in combination. But the strikes themselves were generally directly toward the target.

 My ju-jitsu style is full of circular motion. Again, we worked constantly on what we simply called "flow", that ability to feel a person's movement, become one with it, flow through their attack, and lock into our own whenever the opportunity presented.

 Your question about reversing or flowing out of a lock was addressed in the second paragraph of my original post as well as above. Yes, as long as you yourself aren't locked, you can flow endlessly. Ultimately where you end up is dictated by where the motion goes. The fight isn't over until someone is incapacitated.

 I have no "goal", to answer your last set of questions. To mentally place a goal upon myself is to constrict my mind and body because I can then only do what appears to further my goal.  If I have any set of goals it is protect the innocent or helpless, preserve myself, and end the conflict (preferably without permanent harm). 

 When I studied only karate I reacted instinctively but it was to avoid, block, strike, or counter-strike.  Now, I instinctively become one with the person's own motion (to the limits of my ability).  

 The "goal" is to become him and allow my training to induce whatever is available whenever it happens, but to induce that event painfully and instantly.  My summary of my jujitsu technique is "Flow like water; Strike like fire".


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## arnisador (Oct 10, 2005)

I use joint locks transitionally--I like to start the lock to get the off-balancing I need, then go to a strike. I often only use the first half of the lock if it gets them moving the way I want them to go. Eh, easier to demonstrate than to describe!


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## bignick (Oct 10, 2005)

Locks also lead quite easily into limb destruction. Pain compliance is one way to use joint techniques, removing the ability to use the joint without serious constructive surgery is another. Prime example, just about any one with any competence in the lock kote gaeshi would most likely be able to apply it faster than anybody, even someone experienced with the technique would be able to roll out or block the lock. Remember, in arts like Judo, Jujutsu, Aikido, etc...people use the roll as an escape from the lock and a way to avoid damage. Someone that doesn't know it's coming or is unprepared to take the fall will get to hear the pleasant sounding ,snap of ligaments, etc being torn. And by the way, from personal experience...it's a pretty disgusting noise, even when you're not the one getting hurt...


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## bignick (Oct 10, 2005)

Also, more real life stories, my friend Mitch, a black belt in jujutsu was traveling to England a few years ago.  When he tried to board the plane they confiscated his kubotan because it's a weapon, and we've all heard how bad the English are about that.  Well, needless to say he got lost in the middle of the night on the way to his friends place from the bar.  Two guys tried to jump him and steal his wallet.  One had a knife.   He said he can't really remember clearly what happened, but he does know the one with the knife learned all about the effectiveness of joint locks, again, kote gaeshi in particular.  

This is not to say joint locks are the end all technique...they are not.  Just like anything else the effectiveness will vary by person, I know a guy that can lay his palms on both hands flat onto his forearms...picture that....then try it....then shiver a little bit... and sometimes you'll need to setup with a distraction like a strike or, like Arnisador said use a lock as a distraction for a strike.


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## mantis (Oct 10, 2005)

Navarre said:
			
		

> I have no "goal", to answer your last set of questions. To mentally place a goal upon myself is to constrict my mind and body because I can then only do what appears to further my goal. If I have any set of goals it is protect the innocent or helpless, preserve myself, and end the conflict (preferably without permanent harm).
> 
> When I studied only karate I reacted instinctively but it was to avoid, block, strike, or counter-strike. Now, I instinctively become one with the person's own motion (to the limits of my ability).
> 
> The "goal" is to become him and allow my training to induce whatever is available whenever it happens, but to induce that event painfully and instantly. My summary of my jujitsu technique is "Flow like water; Strike like fire".


 Thank you sir for your patience with me
 Actually I was asking what is your goal as a karate fighter, or JJ artist. For example in mantis kung fu, or Chin'na our goal is to get out of a serious situation asap and run away, other arts maybe require the fighter to disable the oponent and so on. So let's say you are attacked when do you stop fighting? I am sorry I didnt make myself clear. 
 I think karate is believed to be a hard art is because it confronts force with force. for example in mantis kung fu (AGAIN!!) if i am hit i yield and absorb your energy (the concept of YIN = soft) then i reverse your energy back at you (YANG = hard).


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## Navarre (Oct 10, 2005)

Yes, despite all the great techniques in karate, I agree that it is a "hard" art. Sometimes that works as well or better than a soft one but, like Arnisador, I often allow them to flow together. After a while it becomes harder to separate visually because of the flow, which is why I'm glad I work on integrating the two.

 As for my goal if I'm in a fight; when do I stop? Like anyone, I stop when the conflict is ended. I know that sounds smug to say but that's really all there is to it.

 My goal is not to put ppl in locks any more than it is to kick them. I simply allow myself to go on instinct and training, executing whatever is open. In general though, I use karate to close the gap, doing damage on the way in.  I then use ju-jitsu to take advantage of the opening created by my strikes.

 When I started ju-jitsu I found my karate training allowed  me to "get the drop" on most fellow students. This was great. But, in real life I'd better stop them before they get a hold of me because Heaven help me once they made a grapple. 

 So, we interchanged concepts. I showed them how to protect themselves better while closing the gap and doing damage on the way in. They showed me what to do when the fight inevitably ended up in a clinch.

 At this point, I couldn't imagine working on just one of these arts. In a real fight, I'll use the best available technique to achieve my three goals (protect others, protect myself, stop the fight).


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## Andrew Green (Oct 11, 2005)

Same reason we practice forceful dentistry....  Hurting people is what we do.


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## Korppi76 (Oct 11, 2005)

Hi,
 I would say that first in aikido you learn to do joint locks that only hurt. 
Then you learn to make locks that moves uke. 
And then you learn how to get away from them in early of lock (when its not fully locked... how you say that).
Usually you cant get away from successfully made lock, you can resist it are do something else but the time window for that is very small.

And when comparing Aikido lock to those I learned in Karate, Ju-jutsu and Judo I would say that in aikido locks are usually made more, how to say this... more through to uke than for example in Karate or Ju-jutsu. This is because in aikido technique is usually centered to that lock and in Karate or Ju-jutsu it is part of combination. Like arnisador said.

And then there  are ending locks that are basicly similar in idea in all those arts I have trained. Uke stays down or under control.


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## Eric Daniel (Oct 11, 2005)

mantis said:
			
		

> sounds like u've never been in a joint lock!
> my friend, there was nothing i can do about it when i was in join locks.
> i mean the guy, who is my teacher too, would walk and drag me with him anywhere, and he was just toss me on the ground, or take me from a painful lock to another!
> in chin'na i was taught to lock, throw on the ground or hit, then run away. more for self-defense


Oh, I have been in joint locks before and my instructor can and does do the same thing to me as your sensei did to you (walk and drag around, go from one lock to the other and toss me to the ground.) I was just reading another forum on locks and I took my interpatation of what was being asked there and put on this forum to see what the reaction to you guys on this forum would be because the other forum has much different reactions to joint lock discussion than you guys do! Just in case you were wondering the web address to the other forum is 
http://www.uechi-ryu.com/forums and it is in the world Modern Arnis Coalation section under the topic how to escape from locks.


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## Eric Daniel (Oct 11, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> I use joint locks transitionally--I like to start the lock to get the off-balancing I need, then go to a strike. I often only use the first half of the lock if it gets them moving the way I want them to go. Eh, easier to demonstrate than to describe!


My sensei likes to do the same thing.


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## Eric Daniel (Oct 11, 2005)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Joint locks are used for all of the above and there are always counters. Part of the training for joint locks is to know what to do when someone resists or tries to counter.
> 
> BTW - what style do you train?


I train in a martial art with different styles in one organization. As for joint locks it is Takeshin Aiki- Ju- Jutsu.


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## Yari (Oct 17, 2005)

Eric Daniel said:
			
		

> Why do Martial Artist use joint locks? I know there are a few joint locks in aikido like nikkyo, sankyo, yonkyo, and others. What are they used for? Restraining an opponent, Controling an opponent, submission? What if someone resists the joint lock? (I would hit them if they resist). how many of you have studied or know how to get out of these locks?



Why do MA use joint *locks*? _To lock/redirect, either intermidiate or totaly._

I know there are a few joint locks in aikido like nikkyo, sankyo, yonkyo, and others. What are they *used * for? _To lock,/redirect either intermidiate or totaly._

What if someone *resists* the joint lock? _Do something else._

how *many* of you have studied or know how to get out of these locks? _42% _  :ultracool 

/Yari


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## bdparsons (Oct 17, 2005)

Eric Daniel said:
			
		

> Why do Martial Artist use joint locks?



I think this thread is relevant:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17825

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute


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## sallehi (Aug 20, 2022)

If you are looking for a list of kansetsu waza techniques or in other words judo joint locking techniques and you want to learn them well, this article is the best choice for you.


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## Jared Traveler (Aug 20, 2022)

Historically joint locks that restrain someone where reportedly in demand for body guards of nobles and royalty. Where an important guest, might suddenly needed to be restrained, but not damaged. 

As a police officer I have had multiple, multiple opportunities to take someone down and restrain someone with joint locks. When they work and it's an appropriate use of force, they are great. They have their place.


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## Holmejr (Aug 22, 2022)

In Eskrido de Alcuizar we have two sections, the Arnis (stick, blade) and combat judo. In Combat judo, there are a many locks, throws, breaks, counters and counters for the counters. Like most self defense, the element of surprise plays a big role. Many of these techniques produce great pain which leads to a quick submission. 

Eskrido de Alcuizar
World Eskrido Federation
Buena Park, CA


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## Buka (Aug 24, 2022)

When they work, cool. When they don't, especially because they're difficult to apply when someone is going nuts.....they aren't worth squat.


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## isshinryuronin (Aug 24, 2022)

Buka said:


> When they work, cool. When they don't, especially because they're difficult to apply when someone is going nuts.....they aren't worth squat.


They are good for temporary control or disablement without having to KO a person.  That said, a good strike or two before setting it is helpful to immobilize the attacker by way of distraction or pain.   I agree that it's almost impossible to set a lock on a flailing opponent otherwise.

I have seen some fancy locks that work (when eventually set) but seem unrealistic against a resisting opponent.  And also seen some kata bunkai interpretations involving same.  This seems to me to be an interesting theoretical mental exercise, not part of a true fighting method:  _Too many links in the chain required.  _KISS.  (This does not apply to a _qin-na_ master who can lock three or four joints all at once and bend you into a pretzel.)

IMO, eight to ten basic _practical_ joint locks are more than enough for the general martial artist to know in order to help handle a self-defense situation when called for.


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## drop bear (Aug 24, 2022)

isshinryuronin said:


> They are good for temporary control or disablement without having to KO a person.  That said, a good strike or two before setting it is helpful to immobilize the attacker by way of distraction or pain.   I agree that it's almost impossible to set a lock on a flailing opponent otherwise.
> 
> I have seen some fancy locks that work (when eventually set) but seem unrealistic against a resisting opponent.  And also seen some kata bunkai interpretations involving same.  This seems to me to be an interesting theoretical mental exercise, not part of a true fighting method:  _Too many links in the chain required.  _KISS.  (This does not apply to a _qin-na_ master who can lock three or four joints all at once and bend you into a pretzel.)
> 
> IMO, eight to ten basic _practical_ joint locks are more than enough for the general martial artist to know in order to help handle a self-defense situation when called for.



Generally the set up is incredibly bad. Which turns them from low percentage to unrealistic.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 25, 2022)

isshinryuronin said:


> IMO, eight to ten basic _practical_ joint locks are more than enough for the general martial artist to know in order to help handle a self-defense situation when called for.


I have some familiarity with a number of fundamental joint locks, but would certainly never claim an exceptional level of knowledge on the topic.  A number of years ago I read two or three books written by Yang, Jwing Ming on the topics of quin-na in Shaolin and taiji.  The books were heavy on photos, showing step-by-step how the lock is set up and applied.  These books together contained probably multiple dozen different locks, each with a unique name.  

I took the time to look closely at the photos to try and get a real concept in my head of what was being done.  My conclusion was that all these dozens of “different” locking techniques were really just variations on maybe a dozen or so locks that could be legitimately called different.  The approach and set-up were different, sometimes more significantly so than other times, but the application and setting of the lock itself was often largely the same, perhaps with what I would consider minor variations. 

The variation in the approach and setup leading into the lock is worthwhile because it shows how a smaller curriculum of material can be widely applied.  But it was eye-opening to realize there really aren’t so many different locks as we might be lead to believe.


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## drop bear (Aug 25, 2022)

The biggest issue you have is that there is almost always something better. So knowing when to hit wrist locks (and when to abandon them for something else) can be kind of tricky. 

But people do silly things with their wrists while grappling. And people flare their elbows to escape wrist locks. So you can use them as a grip fighting system.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 26, 2022)

isshinryuronin said:


> IMO, eight to ten basic _practical_ joint locks are more than enough for the general martial artist to know in order to help handle a self-defense situation when called for.


You may need a bit more than that.

1. Finger lock - fingers bend, finger split, ...
2. wrist lock - small wrist lock, larger wrist lock, chicken wing, palm flip, hand shake lock, ...
3. elbow lock - ...
4. shoulder lock - ...
5. head lock - ...
6. spin lock - ...
7. leg lock - ...

You also need counter skill too.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 27, 2022)

isshinryuronin said:


> They are good for temporary control or disablement without having to KO a person.  That said, a good strike or two before setting it is helpful to immobilize the attacker by way of distraction or pain.   I agree that it's almost impossible to set a lock on a flailing opponent otherwise.
> 
> I have seen some fancy locks that work (when eventually set) but seem unrealistic against a resisting opponent.  And also seen some kata bunkai interpretations involving same.  This seems to me to be an interesting theoretical mental exercise, not part of a true fighting method:  _Too many links in the chain required.  _KISS.  (This does not apply to a _qin-na_ master who can lock three or four joints all at once and bend you into a pretzel.)
> 
> IMO, eight to ten basic _practical_ joint locks are more than enough for the general martial artist to know in order to help handle a self-defense situation when called for.


I think some of the complexity is what I consider a misunderstanding of the forms (in grappling arts). Many of the grappling forms I’ve been exposed to include separate entry, counter, and control principles (and even techniques) that can be applied in multiple situations and with other techniques besides the specific lock in the form. Failing to recognize that leads instructors to teach the form as a single technique that should be repeated nearly that way in a dynamic situation. Sometimes it can be, but that misses the variety of applications actually covered.


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## isshinryuronin (Aug 27, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I think some of the complexity is what I consider a misunderstanding of the forms (in grappling arts). Many of the grappling forms I’ve been exposed to include separate entry, counter, and control principles (and even techniques) that can be applied in multiple situations and with other techniques besides the specific lock in the form. Failing to recognize that leads instructors to teach the form as a single technique that should be repeated nearly that way in a dynamic situation. Sometimes it can be, but that misses the variety of applications actually covered.


Don't know any grappling forms, but I agree that most traditional forms are designed to be adaptable to situational variations.  My problem is with those who get carried away and extend/interpret the technique to excessive complexity which deviates from what the form is intended to teach, as well as unwieldly for real life.


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## Jared Traveler (Aug 27, 2022)

This is some of my practical experience regarding joint locks in confrontations. I have had mixed success using joint locks. Primarily I used a straight armlock to place people face down and keep them their until I was able to handcuff them. It worked dozens of times.

I have tried a few other wristlocks against people resisting arrest, but don't remember them working. I actually have a black belt in Hapkido from days gone by, so I do know how to apply these locks to a degree.

What worked for me, when the initial lock failed, was to not double down on wrist locks. In other words, if one wrist lock failed, I didn't try and transition to a different wrist lock. Instead I would go from wrist lock to judo throw.

I also have a black belt in Judo. Going from a low percentage teachique like a wristlock, to a high percentage judo (attacking his center of mass vs an appendage) worked very well.

It allowed me to try joint locks with a solid more reliable backup technique.


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## Buka (Aug 28, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> This is some of my practical experience regarding joint locks in confrontations. I have had mixed success using joint locks. Primarily I used a straight armlock to place people face down and keep them their until I was able to handcuff them. It worked dozens of times.
> 
> I have tried a few other wristlocks against people resisting arrest, but don't remember them working. I actually have a black belt in Hapkido from days gone by, so I do know how to apply these locks to a degree.
> 
> ...


I'm guessing that straight armlock is what we call an "arm drag." That's the one I've had the most success with, too.


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## Jared Traveler (Aug 28, 2022)

Buka said:


> I'm guessing that straight armlock is what we call an "arm drag." That's the one I've had the most success with, too.


Maybe, but to me an arm drag is a wrestling technique to get behind someone. I think officially in the PPCT system it's called a straight armbar takedown.


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## Buka (Aug 29, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Maybe, but to me an arm drag is a wrestling technique to get behind someone. I think officially in the PPCT system it's called a straight armbar takedown.


I taught PPCT for many years, and although I've used a straight armbar takedown on several occasions, that's not the one I meant. I'll see if I can find it on YouTube when I get the time, it's gotta be there somewhere.

The problem is probably with American Karate, we don't really care too much about the names of things. (Our bad.)


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 29, 2022)

Buka said:


> I taught PPCT for many years, and although I've used a straight armor takedown on several occasions, that's not the one I meant.


I want to see this straight armor takedown. Question: Do I have to buy the armor in advance, or is it done with the assumption the attacker is wearing said armor?


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## drop bear (Aug 29, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I want to see this straight armor takedown. Question: Do I have to buy the armor in advance, or is it done with the assumption the attacker is wearing said armor?



Obviously the spell check got him and he meant amour. Because he loves that takedown.


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## Buka (Aug 29, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I want to see this straight armor takedown. Question: Do I have to buy the armor in advance, or is it done with the assumption the attacker is wearing said armor?


Typo corrected to armbar. (which I believe is a drinking establishment that only big armed guys can go to.)


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 29, 2022)

Buka said:


> Typo corrected to armbar. (which I believe is a drinking establishment that only big armed guys can go to.)


That's upsetting. I think I'd have more chance getting into an armor bar than an arm bar.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 29, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I want to see this straight armor takedown. Question: Do I have to buy the armor in advance, or is it done with the assumption the attacker is wearing said armor?


Or is it just for an empty set of armor?


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 29, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Obviously the spell check got him and he meant amour. Because he loves that takedown.


I like where this is going.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 29, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> That's upsetting. I think I'd have more chance getting into an armor bar than an arm bar.


What about an amour bar?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 29, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> What about an amour bar?


Those are in amsterdam. Don't think our wives would appreciate us visiting them though.


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## Buka (Aug 29, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Those are in amsterdam. Don't think our wives would appreciate us visiting them though.


I won't tell your wife if you don't tell mine. Besides, we would only be going to an amour bar for research purposes.

But then....if an octopus loving guy opened an arm bar, could we get eight shots for the price of one, then go across the street to the amour bar and strut our stuff?


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## O'Malley (Aug 30, 2022)

I've heard that in Amsterdam it's legal to smoke joint locks.


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## sallehi (Aug 30, 2022)

you can read the joint locks list from this website :


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