# TSD Popularity and Why is this forum so Dead?



## dancingalone (Nov 19, 2010)

C'mon, guys.  TSD is very popular where I live in Central Texas.  It seems like it is the second most popular MA after its close sister art of tae kwon do.  Is that a similar proportion where you live?  When I lived in Pennsylvania, Tang Soo Do was like the #1 system - TSD dojang everywhere.

Why is the participation on MT so low?  Not enough newbies to ask newbie questions?


----------



## DMcHenry (Nov 19, 2010)

Where in Central Texas are you located?


----------



## dancingalone (Nov 19, 2010)

Austin.  There are at least 5-7 TSD dojang in the city and surrounding suburbs.

I've just left my job however and may be interested in traveling for a while though.


----------



## SahBumNimRush (Nov 19, 2010)

Technically I suppose I do practice Tang Soo Do, although our Kwan Jang Nim refers to it as Moo Duk Kwan Tae Kwon Do.  Semantics, in part, and it defines when Our KJN broke away from Hwang Kee.  

I do post in the TSD forum sometimes, but I find myself posting in the general TKD forum more so.  Some TSD purists don't like us bastard children that are part of lineages that broke away, 

I practice, what I consider to be the earlier TSD.  One that is more deeply rooted in the Shotokan fundamentals and not the "Chinese"  influence that brought about the Yuk Ro and Chil Sung hyungs.

Personally I welcome everyone's comments, I love martial arts period, and I do my best not to get caught up in the semantics of what you call your martial art.


----------



## miguksaram (Nov 19, 2010)

There are not that many in my general area of western burbs of Chicago.  There are maybe 2-3 schools of TSD at most. We are comprised of TKD, naturally, and a couple of karate schools scattered about and one or 2 HKD schools.  Lately MMA schools are starting to pop up.


----------



## miguksaram (Nov 19, 2010)

SahBumNimRush said:


> I practice, what I consider to be the earlier TSD. One that is more deeply rooted in the Shotokan fundamentals and not the "Chinese" influence that brought about the Yuk Ro and Chil Sung hyungs.


 
It was my understanding that the "Chinese" influence was always there due to Kee's involvement Chuan'fa.


----------



## dancingalone (Nov 19, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> It was my understanding that the "Chinese" influence was always there due to Kee's involvement Chuan'fa.



I hear that a lot, but it really depends on which TSD camp you are talking about.  I once saw some footage of Dominic Giacobbe performing kata and he looks nothing like what I would expect someone influenced by Yang Tai Chi or Shaolin Gung Fu or even Northern Mantis to look like.  He is rather hard in his expression of TSD.To be clear though, Mr. Giacobbe is a well respected TSD guy - I am not disparaging him at all.  

You can loop on through all of the top TSD guys in the US to see the interesting divergence.  They all display more or less softness depending on when they or their instructors left Hwang Kee's association.  To generalize, I would say the people who left the Moo Duk Kwan chronologically the earliest tend to be harder.


----------



## cdunn (Nov 19, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> C'mon, guys. TSD is very popular where I live in Central Texas. It seems like it is the second most popular MA after its close sister art of tae kwon do. Is that a similar proportion where you live? When I lived in Pennsylvania, Tang Soo Do was like the #1 system - TSD dojang everywhere.
> 
> Why is the participation on MT so low? Not enough newbies to ask newbie questions?


 
I don't know why, but it seems like there's very little TSD discussion anywhere. I suspect that it tends to get taught in pockets traceable to individual instructors with good business acumen.


----------



## SahBumNimRush (Nov 19, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> I hear that a lot, but it really depends on which TSD camp you are talking about.  I once saw some footage of Dominic Giacobbe performing kata and he looks nothing like what I would expect someone influenced by Yang Tai Chi or Shaolin Gung Fu or even Northern Mantis to look like.  He is rather hard in his expression of TSD.To be clear though, Mr. Giacobbe is a well respected TSD guy - I am not disparaging him at all.
> 
> You can loop on through all of the top TSD guys in the US to see the interesting divergence.  They all display more or less softness depending on when they or their instructors left Hwang Kee's association.  To generalize, I would say the people who left the Moo Duk Kwan chronologically the earliest tend to be harder.




I know I've discussed this before with Dan, but I personally don't see much connection between anything I've seen in CMA's and what I practice.  It can be said, that many of the Japanese/Okinawan Kata's have some heritage in CMA's, but they certainly don't look like Gung Fu or Yang Tai Chi.. .  The old kata's are a Japanese/Okinawan interpretation of a CMA.  I suppose the same could be said about TSD; Hwang Kee's interpretation of Yang Tai Chi, but I can't see the connection personally.

There is much debate over Hwang Kee's alleged training in Manchuria.  I am not saying he did or did not do the things he claims, but there is much scholarly debate over the matter.  

I am not certain when my KJN split away from Hwang Kee, but I know he was in the ROK Army, and after his discharge he shortly left for the U.S.  But, what I do know is that we practice only the Shotokan form sets:  Kicho Hyungs, Pyung Ahn Hyungs, Bassai, Naihanchi Hyungs, Chinto, and Kang Song Kun.  We also don't have any soft or static movements that are commonplace in TSD.


----------



## dancingalone (Nov 19, 2010)

> It can be said, that many of the Japanese/Okinawan Kata's have some  heritage in CMA's, but they certainly don't look like Gung Fu or Yang  Tai Chi.



All of them have been altered to an extent, some to greater degree than others.  

The karate styles which retain the closest connection to southern Chinese gong fu are Uechi-ryu/Pang Gai Noon and then arguably Goju-ryu.  (I am ignoring the family styles like Ryuei-ryu which are exclusive and generally difficult to find an opportunity to train in.)  Kata like Sanchin can be clearly traced to the Samchien used in many Chinese systems, and when you compared performances of the form, you can definitely see the commonalities.  

The other Shuri-based styles like Shorin-ryu and its children Shotokan and Tang Soo Do don't have as clear a line of descent.  The Pinan kata were created by Itosu, an Okinawan, and even kata like Chinto which have been argued to be based on older Chinese versions don't have the same degree of kinship when you try to compare them to the root Chinese systems like with Sanchin/Samchien.


----------



## OldKarateGuy (Nov 19, 2010)

_Why is the participation on MT so low?_

You're right. The TSD forum has been dead. OK, I'll ask a question.

Although my style of TSD - J C Shin's WTSDA - is superficially similar to Shotokan, there is one glaring difference (well, there may be others, but here's the one I notice most). TSD seems to ignore the reverse rotation. For instance, when completing a high block, in TSD, the blocking hand starts at the opposite hip. The hips and upper body end up square, and whatever rotation actually occurs is in the direction of the block. In Shotokan, when performing a high block, one might start squared off, and as the block is performed, the hips and torso turn sideways. The rotation is reversed, so that, in effect, the blocking arm and shoulder are driven forward and the opposite hip is pulled back strongly. 

Other TSD blocks and punches also have a similar bias toward a squared off finishing position, instead of turned partially sideways.

Do other TSD practitioners do the same? Thoughts about the difference?


----------



## Master Dan (Nov 19, 2010)

SahBumNimRush said:


> Technically I suppose I do practice Tang Soo Do, although our Kwan Jang Nim refers to it as Moo Duk Kwan Tae Kwon Do. Semantics, in part, and it defines when Our KJN broke away from Hwang Kee.
> 
> I do post in the TSD forum sometimes, but I find myself posting in the general TKD forum more so. Some TSD purists don't like us bastard children that are part of lineages that broke away,
> 
> ...


 
Thank you for your post. Most TSD people I had met seemed to be of the Chinese Influence and in fact were teaching TKD. While I was receiving my Cat Scan today the technition around 60 something was telling about his travels in Alaska and then mentioned he had a bb in TSD and then mentioning the names of the Katas he did and many of those and his terminology were Japanese or Okinowin in origin I had just not heard these forms related to TSD?

I do study some of  the katas related to understanding Bonki applications but it will be interesting to see what forms he does. My GM was a master in Tang Soo before joining Jido Kwan in Korea around the 50's early 60's


----------



## dancingalone (Nov 19, 2010)

OldKarateGuy said:


> Although my style of TSD - J C Shin's WTSDA - is superficially similar to Shotokan, there is one glaring difference (well, there may be others, but here's the one I notice most). TSD seems to ignore the reverse rotation. For instance, when completing a high block, in TSD, the blocking hand starts at the opposite hip. The hips and upper body end up square, and whatever rotation actually occurs is in the direction of the block. In Shotokan, when performing a high block, one might start squared off, and as the block is performed, the hips and torso turn sideways. The rotation is reversed, so that, in effect, the blocking arm and shoulder are driven forward and the opposite hip is pulled back strongly.
> 
> Other TSD blocks and punches also have a similar bias toward a squared off finishing position, instead of turned partially sideways.
> 
> Do other TSD practitioners do the same? Thoughts about the difference?



Hmm, I took a quick look at Youtube for the top 5 videos returned from a search of 'Pyung Ahn Chodan Tang Soo Do'.  You are right.  None of the videos show a hanmi (side-facing) position on the down block, so I guess reverse rotation is not commonly executed on the down block.  I could almost swear that I recall from talking with some TSD people however that reverse rotation IS something they say they do.

Reverse rotation on blocks is a common feature in Shotokan and (most) Shito-ryu karate ryu-ha.  As I understand it from the Shito-ryu perspective, hanmi is more about setting up a perfect springing position for the subsequent counter than it is about creating force on the block.  I think most anyone would concede reverse rotation is weaker than direct rotation of the hips in a forward direction.

I would add however that practicing reverse hip rotation is just the flip side to what most everyone practices already.  And if we want to develop the more esoteric methods of creating power like hip vibration or spinal wave power, well, you're probably missing part of the picture without becoming familiar with both types of hip rotation first.


----------



## Mighty Mouse (Nov 20, 2010)

OldKarateGuy said:


> _Why is the participation on MT so low?_
> 
> You're right. The TSD forum has been dead. OK, I'll ask a question.
> 
> ...


 
Interesting. I always wondered why there were so few if any WTSDA guys here. OldKarateguy, please excuse me if I am being nosy, but may I ask you what rank you hold in the WTSDA? I hold a 2nd Dan in Tang Soo Do Jung Shin Kwan, a 2nd Dan in Ninjutsu, a 3rd Dan in Kyokushin, and was a blue belt, (Dan in training) in the WTSDA before leaving my school over the summer. My reason for asking is purely my own curiosity. Forgive me if it is disrespectful to ask of that here. I claim complete ignorance if that is the case. 
It is my understanding that the hip placement/rotation during any block is more a factor of the stance you are in moreso than what the block's function is. The same high block can also be done in a back stance and it would look more like your Shotokan block.
My reason for bouncing around schools is that unfortunately, schools are a business and they close. 2 of my former schools closed and the third my instructor moved away. I am not a fan of the WTSDA. I went into the school, with all my training and knowledge, with humility. I was treated like a second class citizen even though I kept my mouth shut and my ears open. I did many things for that school and association and was crapped on. How many Gup students lead a demo team? I did. 'Nuff said.


----------



## Cirdan (Nov 21, 2010)

There are no schools using TSD as a name in Norway, as I understand it Hwang Kee wished for everyone to use the name SBD. TSD is taught in a few places but not in any "pure" schools. TKD on the other hand is everywhere of course. 

Anyway this is second hand info and I don`t know the Korean styles well.

As for why the forum is little active I don`t know but updating the forum description might be a start.. IMHO.


----------



## OldKarateGuy (Nov 21, 2010)

@ Nepa Student

I have a belt from Kodokan from a very long time ago, when I was in my 20's. I am nidan with JKA, and e-dan with WTSDA. I only switched karate styles (after a move) because I could no longer justify a 3 hour round trip for a one hour class to the nearest JKA dojo. I enjoy TSD, and think it a very legitimate style. I'm not really familiar with most of your training styles, but a 3rd dan from kyokushin-kai has my attention. I like the style and really like the sparring.

I agree there is a lot to consider re: hip rotation, and maybe my comment was too simplistic. However, in shotokan, generally - always exceptions - the body turns more or less toward the side into a front hand technique and will square on a back hand technique. For instance, in a high block with the front hand, you might plant your back foot and drive the body forward. As you body reaches the end of potential movement, one might then rotate the hips and torso so the front shoulder advances - and the back shoulder retreats - driving the blocking arm. In TSD, you might see the opposite: the body is sideways and the blocking hand down on the back hip. Then the the body rotates and finishes squared off. The rotation is exactly 180 degrees from the shotokan block. As another post points out, the shotokan version sets up a reverse punch (or kick), the TSD version not as much.

We're talking basic technique practice here. In sparring, perhaps both or neither would actually occur, or either might serve depending on the follow-up technique. But, as a general rule, TSD does not recognize much reverse rotation, which is quite common in shotokan. Just an observation to generate some discussion, not a criticism or judgement.

Sorry you had a bad experience with the WTSDA, but it sounds like much of that was laid on the studio owner's doorstep, not the parent organization. I came in with a lot of experience too, and essentially started from scratch. It was perhaps 3 years to my first dan test. As an aside, I have found Mr Shin to be a very funny and personable guy when you can interact in a small group or one-on-one.


----------



## Mighty Mouse (Nov 21, 2010)

I met Kwan Jang Nim Shin a few times. I find him to be a good, honorable, and fair man. However there are masters I have had issues with. Masters behaving as I do not believe a master should. But for the most part, you are correct. Most of this was at the studio level. However, I know for a fact that GM Shin knew what was happening. Sorry, can't and won't go into details. I will just leave it as in all my years of martial arts, I have never been involved in anything this dishonorable where the people responsible were not booted from the organization and the innocent _people_ were chased out by the dishonorable and dishonored. I have probably spoken too much already.

Anyway, I see what you mean with the high block.


----------



## Mighty Mouse (Nov 21, 2010)

My apologies for hijacking the thread.

I have always wondered why this place is so dead. I've been a member for a while now. I like to check in and read what you guys are writing. I like reading the different perspectives you guys have. I love reading about the history of our art from a little different angle than what is published in the books. I post when I believe I have something relevant. Otherwise, I sit back and enjoy. I would love to see more discussions here too but not at the expense of it's content. I am a member of a couple other forums where I post regularly, not martial arts related. These forums get so clogged with ramblings of lunatics that it grows weary very quickly. I don't want a martial arts forum to become that. Thanks guys. I appreciate what all of you have contributed here. Osu!


----------



## DMcHenry (Nov 22, 2010)

I too tend to sit back and read posts and don't respond all that much.  I'm always looking to see if anything is posted here in the TSD forum.


----------



## OldKarateGuy (Nov 22, 2010)

Although completely off topic, I'd like to point out that Mr McHenry has videos of all (or most) traditional TSD forms on his web site. I have linked to his videos from my school page, and I direct students there on a regular basis. Even if one of my students might have a slightly different look or tempo from Mr McHenry's videos, the techniques and stances seem to be identical. As anyone who has looked knows, there is s deficit of definitive forms available on-line.

So, thanks much Mr McHenry. Very nice contribution to the TSD community.


----------



## DMcHenry (Nov 25, 2010)

Thank you sir.

Mac


----------



## Makalakumu (Nov 25, 2010)

What are the "Hot" topics of discussion when it comes to TSD?


----------



## Makalakumu (Nov 27, 2010)

One of the hard things about discussing TSD is that in most dojangs, the art is separated from it's roots and therefore lacks depth.  As I've grown and changed as a martial artist, I've had to take up studies in arts that contributed to Tang Soo Do in order to better my understanding of the art.  

THAT process if fascinating and well worth discussing, but few Tangsoodoin are willing to pursue their art to that depth.


----------

