# I say, I believe I have broken myself...



## Bill Mattocks (Apr 10, 2009)

Last night, while attempting to perform a 'flying side kick' in the dojo, I managed the 'flying' part (kind of), but managed to land rather heavily on my right leg, which promptly collapsed.  I ended up on my posterior, which had everyone laughing - including myself, until I tried to rise and discovered that my right leg would not bear my weight.  I had to be helped up.

I am significantly overweight and out-of-shape, but I generally have very strong legs.

I believe I have injured my knee, but I am not sure how serious it is.

I am not in pain.  The knee has full range of motion.  It is not swollen.

But, I must walk carefully.  If I twist or turn while standing, putting more weight on it that on the other, it instantly hurts and then tries to fold up.

Since I am not in pain and it is not swollen, I am considering just giving it a couple days and see how things go.  I looked online under 'knee injuries' and the only 'symptom' I seem to have is 'will not bear weight'.  So I'm not sure that I need to rush off to the emergency room.

This happened last night, I got a good night's sleep, and I feel fine this morning, with the exception I mentioned.

Any thoughts?


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## girlbug2 (Apr 10, 2009)

I'm sorry to hear that happened to you Bill. I wish I knew more about knee injuries to help you out; it sounds like you're doing the right thing so far. Have you wrapped it for stability? Are you using a cane to keep your weight off of it?


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## terryl965 (Apr 10, 2009)

Sorry Bill I would suggest going to see the Doc as soon as possible.


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## Steve (Apr 10, 2009)

terryl965 said:


> Sorry Bill I would suggest going to see the Doc as soon as possible.


How did it feel the next day?  I'm also for seeing a doctor, if you have the money or the insurance.  

Here's a great article on knee injuries.  It's on a grappling website that is one of my favorites, but in plain english explains some of the things that might be going on.  

http://www.grapplearts.com/ACL-Injury-FAQ.htm

Good luck and let us know what you find out.


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 10, 2009)

girlbug2 said:


> I'm sorry to hear that happened to you Bill. I wish I knew more about knee injuries to help you out; it sounds like you're doing the right thing so far. Have you wrapped it for stability? Are you using a cane to keep your weight off of it?



Well, it just happened last night, so no, I haven't done anything yet.  I don't really need to keep my weight off it - it will hold me up standing and walking (carefully).  I just can't (for example) do knee bends at the moment.


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 10, 2009)

stevebjj said:


> How did it feel the next day?  I'm also for seeing a doctor, if you have the money or the insurance.
> 
> Here's a great article on knee injuries.  It's on a grappling website that is one of my favorites, but in plain english explains some of the things that might be going on.
> 
> ...



This morning is the next day - I did this last night.  I'll check out the link, thank you.


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## jim777 (Apr 10, 2009)

I'd go really easy Bill, until at least Sunday and see how it feels then. If you can do some knee bends, not 'upper thigh parallel to the ground' type stuff, just halfway there, then I'd assume whatever you pulled or compacted is likely slowly righting itself and healing. If you still can't bend it or it isn't feeling otherwise improved, I think I'd be heading to a doctor on Monday or as soon after as possible. I'd keep a watch for any discoloration as well as the swellling, too. 

Good Luck with it though!


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## Stac3y (Apr 10, 2009)

I gotta go with Steve, here. I would say get to the doc ASAP. It sounds like your knee is unstable (since you can't twist without it collapsing), and that can be indicative of a ligament injury, even if you don't have swelling. How do I know this? I tore the ligaments in my right ankle doing a jump spinning back kick last December, and didn't have really significant swelling until about 24 hours afterward; the discoloration didn't show up for 48. But it was a serious injury, and might not be still bothering me now IF I had gotten treatment for it immediately.

Hope it's all right.


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 10, 2009)

Stac3y said:


> I gotta go with Steve, here. I would say get to the doc ASAP. It sounds like your knee is unstable (since you can't twist without it collapsing), and that can be indicative of a ligament injury, even if you don't have swelling. How do I know this? I tore the ligaments in my right ankle doing a jump spinning back kick last December, and didn't have really significant swelling until about 24 hours afterward; the discoloration didn't show up for 48. But it was a serious injury, and might not be still bothering me now IF I had gotten treatment for it immediately.
> 
> Hope it's all right.



Thank you!  Let me ask - did you have pain in the joint?  Because my knee really does not hurt.  I just had to walk back from the auto shop - my car would not start this morning and I had to get a jump start - drove it down, dropped it off, and walked back.  I discovered that what really hurts is when my knee is in the 'locked' position, like that slightly hyperextended backwards position people get in when they stand at attention.  Otherwise, no pain.  I can go up and down stairs carefully (I live on the third floor of my apt bldg), but not with casual disregard, if you know what I mean.

I'm kind of thinking torn or stretched muscle - but I'm no doctor.  At the moment, I won't be able to go to the hospital anyway - no car.  I'm waiting for the mechanic to call me back.


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## bluekey88 (Apr 10, 2009)

Sounds like what I did a few years ago....could be an ACL tear. 

I was practicing tornado kicks...landed funky.  Blew out my knee...hurt like hell when it happened, ut the pain subsided and there wasn't much swelling.. I went on to teach 3 classes right after it happened.  Went around for amonth or so on it...it was fine...except when i tried to move laterally or twist in any wya...in which case I could feel my shin slide beneath my knee and down I'd go.  Most bizarre feeling I've ever had.  Not pleasant...but it didn't really hurt as such.

Get thee to adoctor and then get an MRI. Sorry to hear you're laid up but with proper care and treatment you can bounce back stronger than ever.

Peace,
Erik


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## Stac3y (Apr 10, 2009)

When I tore the ankle ligaments, one of the reasons I delayed visiting the doc is that it really didn't hurt much. Only a bit when I bent it in certain ways, or put weight on it when it was bent in certain ways. I could walk just fine. It was only when the swelling came on in earnest (it was really gross a couple of days after I did it) that I broke down and went to have it looked at.

Hope you get your car back soon.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Apr 10, 2009)

When you can go get it checked out by a doctor.  

Knee issues are no fun.  I have been there and done that.


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## dnovice (Apr 10, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Last night, while attempting to perform a 'flying side kick' in the dojo, I managed the 'flying' part (kind of), but managed to land rather heavily on my right leg, which promptly collapsed.  I ended up on my posterior, which had everyone laughing - including myself, until I tried to rise and discovered that my right leg would not bear my weight.  I had to be helped up.
> 
> I am significantly overweight and out-of-shape, but I generally have very strong legs.
> 
> ...



Hello bill, i injured my knee playing soccer last saturday. My leg got stuck  and i feel to my left... i'm hoping that i haven't torn a ligament there. Initially, i couldn't bend my knee without excruciating pain, turning on itwas and is still unbearable. 

I did some research online and the diagnosis I found based on how it happened and my symptoms was a medial lateral collateral ligament injury. (mcl.)

I can finally walk again without a stick, albeit the twisting pain that you are talking about above.

I have an appointment to see the orthopedic dr this tuesday (first visit) to ascertain the serverity. 

Your injury sounds similar but albeit a less severe version. You should still go so an orthopedic dr. 

In the mean time though,you can look up mcl (spelled out above) or lateral collateral ligament injuries on google(lcl injuries). If thats not it look up knee injuries. 

Also, rest your knee do not aggravate it, no karate etc. Put some ice on it man. Good luck.


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## morph4me (Apr 10, 2009)

I also thing you should go to the doctor, if your knee decides to collapse while you're  walking down a flight of stairs it probably won't be much fun.  I've had surgeries on both knees that I probably could have avoided if I had taken my own advice.


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## Andy Moynihan (Apr 10, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Last night, while attempting to perform a 'flying side kick' in the dojo, I managed the 'flying' part (kind of), but managed to land rather heavily on my right leg, which promptly collapsed. I ended up on my posterior, which had everyone laughing - including myself, until I tried to rise and discovered that my right leg would not bear my weight. I had to be helped up.
> 
> I am significantly overweight and out-of-shape, but I generally have very strong legs.
> 
> ...


 

Go.

Get an xray.

Yesterday.

Screwed up legs for the rest of your life you don't need.


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 10, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Last night, while attempting to perform a 'flying side kick'
> Any thoughts?


My thoughts are that you should not do that. I hope that helps.
Sean


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## jks9199 (Apr 10, 2009)

Rather than rely on advice from a bunch of well intentioned "quacks" on the web...  See a doctor.  It could be something that you can treat with rest and maybe some ibuprofen... or it could require surgery to correct.  We can't tell from here... and you don't want to limit your mobility.


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## Live True (Apr 10, 2009)

Bill,
While my knee injury was nowhere near as dramatic as yours, I recently injured my knee (and wrist..thpppbttt) and have been ignoring them for about a week.  I just got back from the doctor, and was relieved to find out it's a simple case of runner's knee that some ice, aleve, and some rehabilitation exercises he gave me will resolve fairly quicky.

The point is, though, that it could have been much worse, and my usual activities (including workouts and MA) were starting to suffer.  My knee didn't usually hurt until I put it under the stress of workouts and training...things I do not intend to give up anytime soon.

The wrist?  Tenosynovitus...which is very treatable when caught early..if not, it can lead to scarring and require surgery (BLECH).

My point? Go to the doc...and then you'll at least know if it's something serious...and get down to the real business of healing.  Either way, it sounds like you may have some rehabilitation (home exercises or PT) in your future.  Go to the doc, so you can get back to your training without fear of your knee giving out on you!

I hope things get better soon!


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## Flea (Apr 10, 2009)

How about this Bill ... let's make a pact to see our respective doctors "together."  There's nothing like a group activity for motivation.  :mst:

Sound good?


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## LuckyKBoxer (Apr 10, 2009)

I definitely recommend seeing your doctor. Most doctors will know the basic physical tests that give an indication that there is ligament damage.
I know most insurance companies will stall any real tests to check if there is damage to the ligaments.... like an MRI. They will probably send you for Xrays, which will most likely show nothing from what you are describing. I would demand they send you for an MRI, since those stupid things usually take a while to get scheduled from when they are ordered. But demand it, they will probably try to send you to physical therapy.. Demand the MRI in the meantime otherwise if it is a ligament injury it could be months before they ever even diagnose it as such.


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## Gordon Nore (Apr 10, 2009)

Bill,

Go to your doctor. Listen to what she says. Take care of the injury and dial back on training, limiting yourself to other things you can do safely.

The idea is to live to train another day. I learned that a long time ago, and at almost 49 I've not had to significantly disrupt my training over an injury.


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## shesulsa (Apr 10, 2009)

I tore my ACL and what you're describing sounds an awful lot like a ligament injury.

So I have to echo what everyone else said and say, see your doctor as soon as possible, hold off on training until you can establish what the injury *is* exactly - we don't want you getting a more serious injury than you may already have.

Expect to get xrays and an MRI at least.  If surgery is required, I *highly* recommend finding a specialist who will work with you on the type of reconstruction and recovery plan that will afford you a repair that will as closely resemble your original joint as possible and be willing to sacrifice time and even some training for a quality recovery and best chance in future training.

My ACL reconstruction was *awesome* and I have full range of motion - it's better than the other knee, now.  I took 15 months to recover it - willingly.

Hopefully, you only have a strain and need a little ice and rest.

Please make that appointment, rest yourself, and keep us posted!


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 10, 2009)

I am resting, have ice on it, and have been elevating it all night.  It feels better already.  Of course, I also have a semi-large quantity of Jack Daniels in me.  Shame to let all that ice go to waste.

I'll keep you all posted.  At the moment, it only hurts when I lock it up (hyperextension).  Otherwise, it feels better.


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## Kacey (Apr 11, 2009)

Go see a doctor.  It could be nothing - but if it's not, the longer you wait, the more complex, long-term - and quite likely, the more expensive - any needed treatment are likely to become.


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 11, 2009)

FYI, folks.  I seem to be feeling much better this morning.  Don't even have a hangover!

Seriously, my knee is not swollen or discolored, and it has been just under 2 days now.  I can stand on the leg much better than I could yesterday, and even hyperextend (lock) it with only a modicum of discomfort - yesterday it hurt quite a bit.  Huge improvement.

I will continue to monitor.  For those who recommended going straight to the ER, I appreciate the advice and it may yet turn out I should have, but I am trying to be responsible here.  I could just be whining over a very minor injury.  We'll see.  If it shows any signs of not continuing to improve, swells up, changes color, etc, I'm off to the Urgent Care nearest me.


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## Flea (Apr 11, 2009)

> Shame to let all that ice go to waste.



I like you, Bill.  :drinkbeer   :lol:


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## jks9199 (Apr 11, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> FYI, folks.  I seem to be feeling much better this morning.  Don't even have a hangover!
> 
> Seriously, my knee is not swollen or discolored, and it has been just under 2 days now.  I can stand on the leg much better than I could yesterday, and even hyperextend (lock) it with only a modicum of discomfort - yesterday it hurt quite a bit.  Huge improvement.
> 
> I will continue to monitor.  For those who recommended going straight to the ER, I appreciate the advice and it may yet turn out I should have, but I am trying to be responsible here.  I could just be whining over a very minor injury.  We'll see.  If it shows any signs of not continuing to improve, swells up, changes color, etc, I'm off to the Urgent Care nearest me.


You had significant trouble walking on it.

That's NOT minor.  It may heal on it's own or it may not; until you get a doctor's evaluation of the actual injury, not written descriptions on line - you don't know.  You're responsible for getting to and from work; is your knee a reasonably important part of that?


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## Kacey (Apr 11, 2009)

jks9199 said:


> You had significant trouble walking on it.
> 
> That's NOT minor.  It may heal on it's own or it may not; until you get a doctor's evaluation of the actual injury, not written descriptions on line - you don't know.  You're responsible for getting to and from work; is your knee a reasonably important part of that?



I have to agree.  Some years ago, I landed badly from a jump and sprained my knee.  I iced it, elevated it, and stayed off it as much as possible until I get could to my doctor - which, since I injured it on Saturday and it wasn't life-threatening, wasn't until Tuesday afternoon.  She examined it, and told me she thought it was a sprain, but just to be sure, she sent me to an orthopedist specializing in sports injuries.  When all was done, it turned out it _was_ a bad sprain - but all the annoyance, cost, and inconvenience was worth it when I knew, for certain, that nothing was torn, especially after a friend of mine suffered a similar injury, didn't get it attended to, and then stood up one day and his leg buckled.  It turned out he'd partially ripped his ACL in the original injury, and it had slowly finished tearing over the next several weeks, leading him to need much more serious surgery to repair it than he would have had he gone to see a doctor immediately.

It feel better - that's great!  It's probably nothing.  But in a similar situation, I went to a doctor - and it was worth it to me.


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## shesulsa (Apr 13, 2009)

Yes, some injuries will not cause a great deal of swelling or even discomfort - mine didn't.  It hurt at the moment, felt sloppy and was hard to walk on ... but once I found out I had the torn ligament, the doctor told me if I had continued to train even though I felt better, the damage to my knee could have become MUCH more significant.

I still say you should see a doctor before returning to training. ER not so much, but DO see a sports knee doctor asap.


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## Makalakumu (Apr 13, 2009)

Usually, I give my injuries the three day rule.  That is, if it hurts after three days, I go in.  Knees and back are the exception.  After hurting both and thankfully not having to have surgery on the former, I'm a convert.  Take that from a guy who ignored a cracked a bone in his forearm and popped in two dislocated fingers in a sparring match to continue a tournament.  I don't really mess around with anything anymore.  I'd like to keep my 32 as long as possible.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 13, 2009)

When I was younger

Broke my ankle once...... it hurt for a day or so but I wrapped it and continued to walk around on it not knowing exactly what I did.

A few years later I broke my ankle and ended up in the ER and that is when I found out I broke it before.

Hurt my knees more times than I can count and decided to take care of things in my usual manor which was keep on going. Eventually it all caught up with me and I ended up in PT. Which likely could have been avoided had I gone to see a Doc the first or even the 15th time.

I could go on with a rather long list of injuries but I will not. I will say what you have been told about going to see a Doc is good advice but should you choose to ignore it and go with what appears to be working at the moment that is of course up to you. 

But maybe what you are doing is exactly what a Doc would tell you to do and all will be fine eventually and if that is the case I recommend taking some time off from things like MA. However if this is a more serious injury that may require more than what you are doing then the next time you injure yourself...and there will be a next time...it will likely be much worse and it all may have been avoidable had you taken the proper action this time.

It is however your call and I hope what ever you decide works


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## Rich Parsons (Apr 13, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Last night, while attempting to perform a 'flying side kick' in the dojo, I managed the 'flying' part (kind of), but managed to land rather heavily on my right leg, which promptly collapsed.  I ended up on my posterior, which had everyone laughing - including myself, until I tried to rise and discovered that my right leg would not bear my weight.  I had to be helped up.
> 
> I am significantly overweight and out-of-shape, but I generally have very strong legs.
> 
> ...




Bill,

I have seen what you described turn out to be a broken leg near the joint. As I am not a doctor I cannot tell you what to do, only give you experience. 

I myself had a knee injury during a ski trip. Later under certain conditions (* 270 degree spins on just that leg *) it became weak and wobbled and would not support my weight. Everything else worked just fine. I went to the doctor and they told me I had healed from the ski trip from years before, but I had not built back my muscles for interior and exterior quads. The exterior gets worked with every day walking and such. The interior needs swimming and or certain types of bicycle work out, and also the negative portion for weights in physical training. I had to first just the leg by its self, hold it out for as long as I could. (* It was healed before I began and feeling fine and supporting weight again *) After Holding it out for 30 seconds or so, I would then as slow as possible lower it with the muscles working. This works the interior quads. After a period of time (* not sure as this was 15+ years ago *) I moved up to a 1/2 pound ankle weight. This was painful, and I thought it would be easy and quick. After a while I could do a one pound weight. 

But to key to all of this, was that a Doctor prescribed the physical therapy. The techniques today I am sure are much better, so I would investigate the Doctor and therapy route. 


Good Luck


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## Live True (Apr 14, 2009)

I can't speak with all the experience of some here, but the point I was making in my original post is that you should go to the doctor because 
a) it could be somethign serious and the sooner you find out the better your chances for full recovery
b) if it's not something serious (like mine) then you gain relief in knowing what it is and what needs to be done to feel better.

besides some time and money (I know, not small these days, but let's gain some perspective) you have little to lose and a lot to gain.


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 14, 2009)

Well, I'm still in 'wait and see' mode at the moment.  I went to dojo last night, and somebody put a bug in my sensei's ear, because he would not let me work out hard, even though the knee was feeling considerably better.  I did manage to make it hurt again just a little bit, so I'm babying it today.  It has gotten a lot better since last Thursday night - I can walk normally, no pain, full range of motion, and I discovered a sore spot about 2 1/2 inches down and to the right of my right kneecap, which I suspect is a strained tendon.

I will continue to baby it and see how it goes.  Thanks for the tips and concern, everyone.


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## Nomad (Apr 14, 2009)

Hi Bill,

See a doctor.  A leg suddenly collapsing like that screams to me of possible ligament injury.  Having been down this road, you need to know that a torn ligament does not heal, and if untreated almost always leads to further injury down the road. I worked out on mine after tearing the ACL for almost 8 months after the acute symptoms went away before it collapsed again (this time during a tournament) and this time tore the meniscus as well (couldn't mistake that one, as my knee was ~3 times it's normal size by the next morning).

See an orthopedic specialist; they can normally tell by a functional test whether or not the ligaments are torn, and will likely schedule an MRI to confirm.  My Family Medicine doctor initially misdiagnosed the knee injury; it wasn't until after the second time when they took the MRI and saw the remains of the ligament all curled up in a way that told them it had been ruptured some time before that I knew the extent of the injury.

If in doubt, demand the MRI.  It's the only way (short of exploratory surgery, which I'm not really a fan of) to get a look inside and see what's going on.

Good luck!


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