# What is correct?



## dmax999 (Mar 25, 2005)

I'm the idiot that picked up a golf club to see if I could learn anything about Tai Chi with it.  I believe I may be onto something.  There is a very fine line between wacking a golf ball over 200 yards and shanking it 10 feet every time.  Watching the different swings they appear almost identical, but to the swinger they are very different.  As soon as I stopped using my right arm in the swing suddenly I could hit good almost every time.  (Interesting that keeping one arm yang and other yin while using both in the swing is the correct technique, a Tai Chi principle)

My question is how do you know when you are doing Tai Chi correctly?  I believe you can do the forms and postures and appear to be nearly perfect and be completely wrong, this is where lineage would come in.  With Tai Chi there is no ball to see flying down the driving range.  I also know that almost inperceptable changes are the difference between correct and wasting your time.

Is the marker for correctness winning at push hands every time?  Feeling the chi flower stronger and easier?  Splitting a heavy bag with a single strike? Anyone have ideas here?


----------



## East Winds (Mar 26, 2005)

dmax999,

Some question!!!!! As far as Traditional Yang Family Taijiquan is concerned, the correct way, is infusing Yang Cheng-fu's 10 essences into every posture of the form. Remembering that the essences are cumulative. In otherwords you may think you are doing essence 2 (Sinking Shoulders and Elbows), but unless you have essence 1 already in place ( High Spirit), you cannot be doing essence 2 and so on, right through the 10 essences. Without the essences, it may look nice, but it won't be correct. It won't be effective either as a martial art or a health giving excercise. What do you other stylists use as you equivalent to Yang Cheng-fu's essences?

Best wishes

East Winds


----------



## dmax999 (Mar 27, 2005)

Thanks for your answer East Winds.  I do not remember hearing Yang Cheng-Fu's 10 essences before.  I have read tons on Tai Chi and may just be forgetting having seen it before.  Do you have a list of these 10 essences or the ability to point me in a direction to find them?

Thanks


----------



## j_m (Mar 27, 2005)

I'd like to give you a more _hands-on_ reply.  It's not specific to Taiji but it's the way I would look at something like this.


We'll stick with your golf analogy to keep it simple:

Wether I'm driving 200+ yards or shanking it (or a mix) if I want to know what is "correct" I find a golf pro and let an expert (a REAL expert) give me the low down.  Next, you can drive a ball... but that's a very small part of the game as a whole.  Can you shoot under 100? 90? 80? 70??  The overall game is more of a gauge of your _Golf Skillz_ than what you can do on a driving range.

Now... is my Taiji being done correctly?  Well... I find a Taiji Pro (i.e. a GOOD teacher) to give me the low down.  Next, you can do push hands... and win most of the time.  But can you fight with it.  Can you seriously *throw down* using JUST what you've learned from Taiji against various attackers... the overall game.  Other Taiji people?  Kung Fu people?  MMA people?  Experienced street fighters??


Maybe I'm simple minded... but that's how I would begin to look into your question.



jm


----------



## East Winds (Mar 28, 2005)

dmax999,

The ten essences are 1. Raise the head (high spirit). 2 Sinking shoulders and elbows. 3. raise the back and hollow the chest. 4. Relax the waist. 5. Distinguish the substantial and insubstantial. 6. Use conciousness not strength. 7. Co-ordinate the upper and lower body. 8. Unite the internal and the external. 9. continuous motion. 10. Seek stillness in motion.

j_m.

You don't think the 10 essences are "hands on" in relation to correct Taijiquan??
Boy, have you a way to go!!!

Very best wishes

East Winds


----------



## j_m (Mar 28, 2005)

East Winds said:
			
		

> j_m.
> 
> You don't think the 10 essences are "hands on" in relation to correct Taijiquan??
> Boy, have you a way to go!!!


Hmmm... I don't think I said that anywhere. And, yes, I have a ways to go with Taiji... since I don't practice it 

I wasn't trying to be contadictory to your post at all... just looking at the question from a different angle. i.e. Find an expert to help you *FEEL* the correctness.  And even if you have the 10 essences you are referring to but it doesn't work against an opponent (a REAL opponent) ... it's probably still not completely correct. Do you dig?



jm


----------



## East Winds (Mar 28, 2005)

j_m

No disrespect intended but I find it interesting that you feel able to reply to a taijiquan post when you don't practice the art yourself. 

I can assure you that if you have the ten essences in place, it WILL work against a "real" opponent. After 10 years as a police officer and 25 as a ranking officer in the prison service, I can testify to that.

I trust you are not one of those who think that Taijiquan is an old persons exercise programme??

If you play golf but don't bother about a proper stance, a proper grip, co-ordination or balance, will you be able to play championship golf??

Very best wishes

East Winds


----------



## j_m (Mar 28, 2005)

EW,


No disrespect taken. I study and train in Chinese martial arts... and have for some time. Taiji is a Chinese martial art and that's why I stated in my first post that my comments were *not* specific to Taijiquan. As unique as tajiquan is it still has many similarities and similar principles to other CMA's. If you feel this is not true I'd be happy to discuss it in another thread.

Let me state again that I did not say anything contrary to your posts. I was and am merely looking at things from a different perspective than you. I don't doubt the importance of the 10 E's nor did I say that I doubted your own martial capabilities. 



> I trust you are not one of those who think that Taijiquan is an old persons exercise programme??


You trust correctly. Not sure what might have led you to _trust_ otherwise.



> If you play golf but don't bother about a proper stance, a proper grip, co-ordination or balance, will you be able to play championship golf??


Probably not. Again, I don't remember stating otherwise.




jm


----------



## dmax999 (Mar 28, 2005)

While I agree finding a good teacher is the key, it may also be the most difficult part.  When I started, knowing nothing, I found the ONLY teacher in my area.  Turns out I would have been better off learning from a book.  Second teacher was a lot better, but he was not what one would call a great teacher.  My current one is even better, but still not a great Tai Chi teacher, he is a great Ba Gua guy that does Tai Chi.  However, he has access to and continues training under great teachers.

My point was that a good teacher is the key, but until you learn enough you will not know if your teacher is good or not.  Anyone can convince a beginner that they are good, and then claim they are the only good ones around, which is where I wasted years and years.

Now I am attempting to find ways to improve my Tai Chi any way possible.  Hitting golf balls has helped with this, just in a way I didn't expect.


----------



## chi-ca (Apr 4, 2005)

dmax999 said:
			
		

> Thanks for your answer East Winds. I do not remember hearing Yang Cheng-Fu's 10 essences before. I have read tons on Tai Chi and may just be forgetting having seen it before. Do you have a list of these 10 essences or the ability to point me in a direction to find them?
> 
> Thanks


http://www.uswushuacademy.com/articles/10essences.htm  This link will take you to a good  article on the 10 Essances -- not too long and easy to grasp.  Dmax999, there are other articles on this site that may help answer your original question.

Chi-ca


----------



## Judge Pen (Apr 5, 2005)

My girlfriend is a former golf world champion.  She's trying to give me lessons on letting my swing do the work for me, not trying to hit the ball, but simply putting the club in the right positions and letting it fall from there.  It's maddening to me, but yet she can out-drive most men with the most effortless looking swing you have ever seen.  I realized that she had a better grasp of internal principles as expressed through her golf swing then many martial artists with years of tai chi practice.  The golf swing is "internal."The proof is in the pudding.  YOu should feel it correctly when you do your tai chi pushing hands.  We all have had moments in push hands of free sparring when we did something that felt instintual and effortless and yet sent the other person sprawling.  Then we try to replicate it and end up exerting too much force and turning it into brawn v. brawn.  It's when you relax and don't try to force it that the internal priciples come into play.  In tai chi fighting or in golf.


----------



## East Winds (Apr 6, 2005)

Judge Pen

Yes. And I bet your girlfriends swing is "grooved in". She will be doing exactly the same thing time after time without deviation. But of course to be able to do that she will have spent hours and hours doing practice swings with the grip exactly the same, the stance exactly the same, always relaxed, not overturning, being rooted etc. etc. Just like learning taijiquan really, getting the basics right and incorporating the ten essences!!!!

Very best wishes

East Winds


----------



## Judge Pen (Apr 6, 2005)

East Winds said:
			
		

> Judge Pen
> 
> Yes. And I bet your girlfriends swing is "grooved in". She will be doing exactly the same thing time after time without deviation. But of course to be able to do that she will have spent hours and hours doing practice swings with the grip exactly the same, the stance exactly the same, always relaxed, not overturning, being rooted etc. etc. Just like learning taijiquan really, getting the basics right and incorporating the ten essences!!!!
> 
> ...


From the time she was 4 until she was 24 she averaged 1,300 golf balls a day!


----------

