# Brown Belt Degrees?



## shane23ss (Feb 16, 2005)

I wanted to ask you EPAK guys about the brown belt degrees. Some of you know I come from a hybrid kenpo system where we didn't have degrees to the brown. I was wondering is 1st degree brown lower than 3rd degree and does 1st degree have 3 stripes, 2nd degree 2 stripes, and 3rd degree have 1? Like I said, my system didn't have degrees to the brown belt. We did not have a purple belt either. We had 3 degrees to the blue belt, with 3rd degree with 3 stripes being higher than 1st degree with 1. Thanks for your help.:asian:


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## Kenpodoc (Feb 16, 2005)

First degree is more advanced than 3rd degree.  We wear no stripes for 3rd degree, 2 stripes for second degree and 3 stripes for first degree.  Personally I just wore plain brown the whole time and my instructor humored me. There is a lot of variation between EPAK schools.  

Jeff


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## shane23ss (Feb 16, 2005)

Kenpodoc said:
			
		

> First degree is more advanced than 3rd degree. We wear no stripes for 3rd degree, 2 stripes for second degree and 3 stripes for first degree. Personally I just wore plain brown the whole time and my instructor humored me. There is a lot of variation between EPAK schools.
> 
> Jeff


Thanks Jeff.:asian:    Is anyone out there different?


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## shane23ss (Feb 16, 2005)

Did you guys have any grappling in EPAK? In my system, we had EPAK purple belt techniques for 1st degree blue, EPAK blue belt techs for 2nd degree, and grappling for 3rd. then it picked up with EPAK green techs for green again and so on.


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## Danjo (Feb 16, 2005)

Same for us in Shaolin Kempo: 3rd degree, then 2nd, then 1st, then Shodan etc. It confused me too when I began because they seemed to use the terms degree for what  in Shotokan we used kyu. Dan= degree and kyu = grade. So in Judo and Shotokan the English is 3rd grade (kyu) Brown, etc. You'rew not a "degree" until black belt. Oh well.


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## shane23ss (Feb 16, 2005)

Danjo said:
			
		

> Same for us in Shaolin Kempo: 3rd degree, then 2nd, then 1st, then Shodan etc. It confused me too when I began because they seemed to use the terms degree for what in Shotokan we used kyu. Dan= degree and kyu = grade. So in Judo and Shotokan the English is 3rd grade (kyu) Brown, etc. You'rew not a "degree" until black belt. Oh well.


Yeah, it was confussing to me when talking to EPAK guys. They were talking about 1st degree brown and so on. I knew EPAK had degrees/kyu to the brown but didnt realize that 1st was higher than 3rd. Anyone know why that is?


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## Bill Lear (Feb 16, 2005)

Third Degree Brown Belt = 1 black stripe

Second Degree Brown Belt = 2 black stripes

First Degree Brown Belt = 3 black stripes


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## shane23ss (Feb 16, 2005)

*Danjo*, I replied to your comment over on the "How close is the UFC to a real fight"


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## shane23ss (Feb 16, 2005)

At what level did you guys change from white gi to black?


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## Shodan (Feb 16, 2005)

Ours is the same as Bill Lear said for brown ranks.  We have the option of wearing black gis after Purple belt.

  :asian:  :karate:


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## Michael Billings (Feb 16, 2005)

See *HERE* for Belt Ranks in EPAK (as well as Tracy and others), on my website. 

 Grappling is fairly common in a lot of Kenpo schools.  Mr. Sepulveda's *AKTS *association has a lot of BJJ grapplers in it and it is frequently taught in schools, seminars and camps ... even if it is not part of the "required" curriculum.

 -Michael


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## Bill Lear (Feb 16, 2005)

shane23ss said:
			
		

> At what level did you guys change from white gi to black?



Third Degree Brown Belt


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## Danjo (Feb 16, 2005)

shane23ss said:
			
		

> At what level did you guys change from white gi to black?


Purple belt in the USSD. I have no idea what it is for the others.


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## Bill Lear (Feb 16, 2005)

Michael Billings said:
			
		

> See *HERE* for Belt Ranks in EPAK (as well as Tracy and others), on my website.
> 
> Grappling is fairly common in a lot of Kenpo schools.  Mr. Sepulveda's *AKTS *association has a lot of BJJ grapplers in it and it is frequently taught in schools, seminars and camps ... even if it is not part of the "required" curriculum.
> 
> -Michael



Yep... We work on ground fighting too.
artyon:


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## shane23ss (Feb 16, 2005)

As far as the gi change, in my school we changed to black gi when promoted to blue belt.


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## WhiteTiger (Feb 16, 2005)

It is my understanding that this is a hold over from the day when there were no colored belts, only White, Brown, and Black. It is White Belt which was broken into 5 "Sub-belts" and leaving the existing 3 kyu's of brown belt.  Which is the source of the numbering in reverse order, Sankyu (3rd grade), Nikyu (2nd grade), Ikkyu (1st grade).


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## dubljay (Feb 16, 2005)

WhiteTiger said:
			
		

> It is my understanding that this is a hold over from the day when there were no colored belts, only White, Brown, and Black. It is White Belt which was broken into 5 "Sub-belts" and leaving the existing 3 kyu's of brown belt. Which is the source of the numbering in reverse order, Sankyu (3rd grade), Nikyu (2nd grade), Ikkyu (1st grade).


 Yes that is correct


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 16, 2005)

I have heared that originaly The levels of brown were not meant to be belt levels but simply one rank divided into three parts. It was only later that they became three distinct ranks. This is what I heared.
Sean


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## KENPOJOE (Feb 16, 2005)

WhiteTiger said:
			
		

> It is my understanding that this is a hold over from the day when there were no colored belts, only White, Brown, and Black. It is White Belt which was broken into 5 "Sub-belts" and leaving the existing 3 kyu's of brown belt.  Which is the source of the numbering in reverse order, Sankyu (3rd grade), Nikyu (2nd grade), Ikkyu (1st grade).



Hi folks,
I've always decoratively refered to this as "the countdown to black belt"!
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE


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## Kenpobuff (Feb 28, 2005)

Our system uses the brown belts like this.

1st degree, 3rd class-three ranks from black, one black stripe.
2nd degree, 2nd class..., two stripes.
3rd degree, 1st class..., three stripes.

For a twist our school changed from the colored belts system to a modified version that White Tiger described from the old school. We now have:

Two degrees of white, representing the beginner-orange and purple belts.
Two degrees of green, intermediate-blue and green.
Three degrees of brown for advanced.

Does anyone have other versions?


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## Ray (Feb 28, 2005)

shane23ss said:
			
		

> At what level did you guys change from white gi to black?


Our Brown Belt went:
3rd degree - no tabs
2nd degree - 1 tab
1st degree - 2 tabs

We wore black gi's from the start, assuming you bought a gi.  There was no restriction on the colors we could wear - and this probably produced some extra sells...we wore red gi's, black gi's, white gi's, US flag jackets with blue pants and so on.  Some of us got the great idea that we could mix and match the pants and jacket color.

At some point, somebody started tucking in their gi top and that became "all the rage" for about a year.


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## DavidCC (Mar 1, 2005)

3rd kyu, 2nd kyu, 1st kyu, 1st dan, 2nd dan... it makes some sense I guess (my school does it that way too)


we have white belt as 9th kyu

white, yellow, orange, purple, blue, green, brown, brown, brown, black

we get a black gi at blue.  The blue belt test is long, difficult, very taxing.  Up until this point, your promtions come in class when the Instructor knows you are ready.  For blue, you get specificaly and rigorously tested, and could fail.  For green, and browns it's back to "when you are ready the belt is awarded".  Then for black it is "beat down time" again.  We do that becaseu, that black gi symbolizes experience and ability.  the lower belts see that gi and know it is someone who will know the best answer to their question.  So we need to be sure...

It's also the whole 'rite of passage' thing too, I gotta admit it, the "black gi club" is kewl    "I am somebody now" hahaha


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## Scott Robinson (Mar 3, 2005)

We do things a little different (in a Cerio derived system).  

We have kyu ranks (called "classes") from 1st brown to white.  We have three classes of brown - starting with "brown 3 / sankyu".  For this class we have three stripes.  We take stripes off as we advance through the brown ranks.  So - for "brown 2/ nikyu" we have two striped; for brown 1 we have one stripe.

I like the metaphor of stripping away as one moves towards black - but we seem to be one of the few systems that do it this way.

It is interesting to see all of the variations on a core practice (three browns).


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## Gufbal1982 (Nov 23, 2006)

Just like Joe, I used to call it the countdown to black belt.  We changed to black gi's at purple belt.  Black was the symbol of "being let into the temple to train" or at least that's what my instructor told me...however, they wouldn't consider you intermediate until green and advanced at brown.  USSD I know consider's you advanced at blue belt...that way you can go to headquarters and test there.


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## Danjo (Nov 24, 2006)

Gufbal1982 said:


> Just like Joe, I used to call it the countdown to black belt. We changed to black gi's at purple belt. Black was the symbol of "being let into the temple to train" or at least that's what my instructor told me...however, they wouldn't consider you intermediate until green and advanced at brown. USSD I know consider's you advanced at blue belt...that way you can go to headquarters and test there.


 
And pay your money directly to them as I remember.


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## Gufbal1982 (Nov 24, 2006)

yup


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## IWishToLearn (Nov 24, 2006)

First Degree Brown is the highest, with no stripes.
Second Degree Brown is the middle rank, with two stripes.
Third Degree Brown is the first brown belt rank you attain, with three stripes, this rank is just above Green.


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## Doc (Nov 24, 2006)

shane23ss said:


> Yeah, it was confussing to me when talking to EPAK guys. They were talking about 1st degree brown and so on. I knew EPAK had degrees/kyu to the brown but didnt realize that 1st was higher than 3rd. Anyone know why that is?


The ranking structure comes from the Japanese, who were the first to install this belt structure in the sport of Judo. Because competitive sparring, (randori) was a requirement for advancement, and classes had people of all ages and both genders, a rank classification was created by Jigoro Kano. Students then could compete in ther own classification reasonably and fairly against students of similar experience.

The system utilizes the "kyu" that counts downward from beginner at 8 to advanced at 1st kyu. The brown belt ranks correspond to 3rd, 2nd, and 1st kyu. The "dan" ranks then began to count upward from there.

I dumped the Japanese kyu system years ago while still maintaining the three levels of brown, but put in proper American numerical order ascending instead of descending with "3rd degree brown" the highest.


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