# When did the belt system change ?



## Burnerbob (Mar 3, 2007)

I began my martial arts trainningin Tang Soo Do in the mid sixties. At that time there were only 8Gups and three brlt colors below Black belt, ie" White, Green, and Red. now I stopped by a local TSD studio and observed that there is 10 Gups and Yellow,Orange,and Brown belts. Is this right?


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## Makalakumu (Mar 3, 2007)

Many school owners have found out that different belt colors are a powerful motivator for kids, thus they have opted for that.  Also, nothing is standardized between the different TSD orgs, so you are bound to see differences.


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## mjd (Mar 4, 2007)

It use to be some of the colors were advanced by adding a stripe and two on the end, now alot of orgs or schools have dropped the stripe and gone for a new belt for each gup with one half a different color, or a ban down the middle.

I thinks it all Marketing tools to make more money.


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## ArmorOfGod (Mar 4, 2007)

upnorthkyosa said:


> Many school owners have found out that different belt colors are a powerful motivator for kids, thus they have opted for that. Also, nothing is standardized between the different TSD orgs, so you are bound to see differences.


 
Also, many school owners have found out that the more belts and stripes you have, the more times you can charge students testing fees.
$$$

AoG


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## Burnerbob (Mar 4, 2007)

ArmorOfGod said:


> Also, many school owners have found out that the more belts and stripes you have, the more times you can charge students testing fees.
> $$$
> 
> AoG


That is the other thing I noticed, no more tradition just how much MONEY I could make.


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## JT_the_Ninja (Mar 4, 2007)

Yeah, at $60-$75 a test, it does make a bit of money. I won't deny that that's probably a major reason my school has so many ranking levels. I will however, say that I'm glad it's not _just_ that. Tests are hard, and though they're lenient on kids, those who don't even try don't get promoted. You see the ones who stick with it becoming the ones who get the most out of it. 

The other primary reason, though, is that there's a required minimum time between tests, so it's not possible just to pay for your tests and get your black belt in a couple months. Gotta go through 4-5 years of training (which, at least at my dojang, is pretty durn tough) just to get to cho dan. Good for you, as my sa bom nim says.


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## ArmorOfGod (Mar 4, 2007)

JT_the_Ninja said:


> Yeah, at $60-$75 a test, it does make a bit of money.


 
Ouch.  That's a lot.  I run a school near Aiken, SC and do not charge anything for the test.  If they pass, they owe ten dollars, which covers the belt, the certificate, and the frame.

AoG


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## MBuzzy (Mar 5, 2007)

If it makes you feel better, I am training in Korea and we use the traditional belt system.  8 Gups, White, Yellow, Green, Red, Black (midnight blue).  3 levels of green, 3 levels of red


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## Burnerbob (Mar 5, 2007)

MBuzzy said:


> If it makes you feel better, I am training in Korea and we use the traditional belt system. 8 Gups, White, Yellow, Green, Red, Black (midnight blue). 3 levels of green, 3 levels of red


Not a question of how I feel, I was just wondering what happened in 40 years. When my Sam Bu Nam was killed in a motorcycle accident I had to switch to Goju as there were only two styles in my area to study. Now it seems like a McDonalds menu to choose from and every style seems to have a gazillion belt colors to test for, and the prices they charge is like they are paying the next ten years mortage at once. Also I have never seen so many"Grand Masters"?


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## Makalakumu (Mar 5, 2007)

I will never be a grandmaster, or even a master...no matter what rank I acheive.


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## JT_the_Ninja (Mar 6, 2007)

upnorthkyosa said:


> I will never be a grandmaster, or even a master...no matter what rank I acheive.



Indeed. Even C.S. Kim doesn't seem to refer to himself as "Grandmaster" much anymore. That's just a really pretentious title, in my opinion.

I think the problem is that too many people want to get to the top, so they start their own federations, or even their own martial arts, and then declare themselves grandmasters. 

The fact of the matter is, though, that there isn't really a top to reach. You can always get better.


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## mtabone (Mar 6, 2007)

The idea of Masters and Grandmasters in Tang Soo Do does not supprise me. If one goes to Asian countries, there are Masters all over the place,and heads of Schools here and there.... (Kwan Jhang Nim means head of school, we in the west see that as GrandMaster). Since we have had Tang Soo Do and martail arts for about 50 years or so in America, it is no supprise that there are those that can claim the title of Master and GrandMaster. 

It again comes down to the same problem it always has come down to in every singel profession in the world, including MA : Is the person truly worthy of the title or not? Before one is so fast to dismiss a Master Belt or GrandMaster, remember some people do earn and deserve it. I give people the benifit of the doubt first. 

Michael Tabone


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## mtabone (Mar 6, 2007)

Hello JT,

Sometimes people start their own org. for the good of their students. Sometimes it is not just ego that drives someone to starting a Kwan. We have to look at each individual case. Like I posted above, it comes down to the same question that plagues every profession : those that know their stuff and are worthy, and those that don't. Some do. Some don't. 

There are plenty of good orgs. that exist that are "splinter" groups of a bigger org. It is sometimes just the nature of Ryu Pa. and yes sometimes it is Ego....once again human nature.

Michael Tabone


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## mtabone (Mar 6, 2007)

I forgot one point....sorry for the post and then post and then post...i worked all night...


Just because one person is Grandmaster does not mean they have stoppen trying to grow as a martial artist? The title of Master or Grandmaster is :

1) a position in a given school or org.
2) a military type of rank
3) a basic symbol of martial arts knowledge
4) a basic assesment of martial arts ability

That does not mean they are not able to make mistakes or to fail, that means they have reached a certain point in their Journey. I know of at least 3 Kwan Jang Nims and 2 Sokes that are still on the Journey to "profection" and bettering themselves. Again, I believe one must offer the benifit of the doubt before we become so cynical. (sorry for any bad spelling, i have been up for a while and have not been able to rest...)

Michael Tabone


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## Shaderon (Mar 6, 2007)

mtabone said:


> That does not mean they are not able to make mistakes or to fail, that means they have reached a certain point in their Journey. I know of at least 3 Kwan Jang Nims and 2 Sokes that are still on the Journey to "profection" and bettering themselves. Again, I believe one must offer the benifit of the doubt before we become so cynical. (sorry for any bad spelling, i have been up for a while and have not been able to rest...)
> 
> Michael Tabone


 
True, we must learn to judge only ourselves and face our critisisms inwards, not outwards.  (Oh heck I'm in a philosophical mood again - there goes the neighbourhood)


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## JT_the_Ninja (Mar 6, 2007)

mtabone: there's an "edit" button to allow you to add things to posts without making new ones.

I agree it's not always purely for ego reasons that people start their own organizations - Choong Jae Nim C.S. Kim started the ITF for good reasons. He doesn't, though, refer to himself as Kwan Jang Nim anymore, though that might be for technical reasons...I think...in any case, I don't see him with the double red-stripe midnight blue belt often, if at all, anymore, especially when he's in the presence of his seniors (he's supposed to be going to Korean sometime soon to practice with Dan #3, whoever that is.)

What I object to most are the "Rex Kwon Do" type McDojangs that pop up everywhere, which I think is the general  concensus, pretty much.


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## Burnerbob (Mar 6, 2007)

JT_the_Ninja said:


> mtabone: there's an "edit" button to allow you to add things to posts without making new ones.
> 
> I agree it's not always purely for ego reasons that people start their own organizations - Choong Jae Nim C.S. Kim started the ITF for good reasons. He doesn't, though, refer to himself as Kwan Jang Nim anymore, though that might be for technical reasons...I think...in any case, I don't see him with the double red-stripe midnight blue belt often, if at all, anymore, especially when he's in the presence of his seniors (he's supposed to be going to Korean sometime soon to practice with Dan #3, whoever that is.)
> 
> What I object to most are the "Rex Kwon Do" type McDojangs that pop up everywhere, which I think is the general concensus, pretty much.


Exactly what I mean.  When the "Kung Fu" series was big, everyone was teaching Kung Fu in their school. After "Billy Jack "everyone was teaching Hapkido, and all claimed to be high ranking Masters. I remember a 3rd Dan who was remarkable, hoever he would say "I am just learning the art I have awhile before I am a Master".


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## foggymorning162 (Mar 14, 2007)

You can look at it a couple of ways adding belts does add graging fees ie; money, but if you don't make money your school can't stay open and you can't teach and pass on your knowledge so it's a vicious circle. I know in our orginazation belts were added to keep students from getting discouraged and dropping out. Kids especially want something to show for their progress, they want to get something for their effort. The knowledge isn't enough for them. We as a society have made this worse look at our school systems we learned because we were told to our children get rewarded for every little achievement. Parents pay their kids for good grades. I got good grades so I wouldn't get in trouble.

Sorry for the rant but kids today are spoiled rotten. But anyway if you want to stay in bussiness you need to keep your paying students and sometimes you need to give them insentive to stay. Believe it or not this can be done without becoming a McDojo but it's not easy.


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## JT_the_Ninja (Mar 15, 2007)

foggymorning162 said:


> You can look at it a couple of ways adding belts does add graging fees ie; money, but if you don't make money your school can't stay open and you can't teach and pass on your knowledge so it's a vicious circle. I know in our orginazation belts were added to keep students from getting discouraged and dropping out. Kids especially want something to show for their progress, they want to get something for their effort. The knowledge isn't enough for them. We as a society have made this worse look at our school systems we learned because we were told to our children get rewarded for every little achievement. Parents pay their kids for good grades. I got good grades so I wouldn't get in trouble.
> 
> Sorry for the rant but kids today are spoiled rotten. But anyway if you want to stay in bussiness you need to keep your paying students and sometimes you need to give them insentive to stay. Believe it or not this can be done without becoming a McDojo but it's not easy.



I find this very true, especially with kids. Each belt promotion is just one more accomplishment to keep them interested. It's all good though; about red belt is where the crowd starts to thin out a bit, when tests switch from every 3 months to every 6 months (assuming they decide to show up for class enough to be ready for tests).


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