# A bit of instruction by WSL



## Danny T (Nov 10, 2016)

Interesting.


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## Callen (Nov 10, 2016)

Classic WSL video, with Philip Ng doing the translation. There are many WSLVT core principals being explored here.


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## KPM (Nov 11, 2016)

Is it just me, or is he doing a Tan Da at 11:15?


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## Danny T (Nov 11, 2016)

KPM said:


> Is it just me, or is he doing a Tan Da at 11:15?


And again at 12:18
In both instances he is saying to intercept the attack arm as you counter attack by going forward. The attack arm is not on the center so would that be an instance of arm chasing as describe by some?


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## KPM (Nov 11, 2016)

Danny T said:


> And again at 12:18
> In both instances he is saying to intercept the attack arm as you counter attack by going forward. The attack arm is not on the center so would that be an instance of arm chasing as describe by some?



Yeah, it seems a bit "indirect" to me.


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## LFJ (Nov 11, 2016)

KPM said:


>



I thought you were "done" again.

You can't learn VT from video in 20 minutes.


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## Callen (Nov 11, 2016)

KPM said:


> Is it just me, or is he doing a Tan Da at 11:15?


The Tan Sau is part of the system. I see this section of the video as more of an overall explanation, or general instruction. As we all know, it's sometimes easier to explain basic principals with an obvious scenario and willing partner.



Danny T said:


> And again at 12:18
> In both instances he is saying to intercept the attack arm as you counter attack by going forward. The attack arm is not on the center so would that be an instance of arm chasing as describe by some?


If the heat were on, WSL would have most likely used a more direct application and would not have bothered with the Tan. But again, when teaching and showing examples, sometimes the situation just isn't perfect.


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## Danny T (Nov 11, 2016)

Callen said:


> If the heat were on, WSL would have most likely used a more direct application and would not have bothered with the Tan. But again, when teaching and showing examples, sometimes the situation just isn't perfect.


So he is teaching to intercept by moving forward with power with a chasing hand principle of which we aren't supposed to do and applying an indirect tan structure that is actually a training of the elbow for the punch.
Interesting.


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## Callen (Nov 11, 2016)

Danny T said:


> So he is teaching to intercept by moving forward with power with a chasing hand principle of which we aren't supposed to do and applying an indirect tan structure that is actually a training of the elbow for the punch.
> Interesting.



Out of curiosity, why all the critique?

There's a lot going on in the video. As I'm sure you're aware of, its extremely difficult to get the complete picture from a short clip of a seminar. He's not advocating any chasing hand principals here. He's just showing an example of implementing a driving elbow, while using a Tan Da shape to illustrate his point. If you look closely, you'll see that WSL is still pressing towards the gentleman's center and he's using the elbow as a piston to drive. It's not like he went way out with the Tan to intercept the swing.


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## Lobo66 (Nov 11, 2016)

He is showing exactly the opposite of chasing the arm.  In fact, he shows that if you remain in place and try to block the arm you will get hit.  Instead, he shows to control the space by moving quickly forward and on a slight diagonal, "cutting off" the punch and striking simultaneously.  This is a consistent theme in WSLVT.


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## Callen (Nov 11, 2016)

Lobo66 said:


> He is showing exactly the opposite of chasing the arm. In fact, he shows that if you remain in place and try to block the arm you will get hit.



Exactly. It's also important to note that the slight diagonal angle that WSL is attacking from is still on center, also a core WSLVT principal.


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## geezer (Nov 11, 2016)

Callen said:


> Exactly. It's also important to note that the slight diagonal angle that WSL is attacking from is still on center, also a core WSLVT principal.



Thanks for the informative responses. This is the kind of straightforward sharing of info. that benefits us all  and makes this forum worthwhile.


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## KPM (Nov 11, 2016)

LFJ said:


> I thought you were "done" again.
> 
> .




I said I was done trying to have any kind of productive discussion with you and Guy.  Not that I was done posting.


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## Transk53 (Nov 11, 2016)

KPM said:


> I said I was done trying to have any kind of productive discussion with you and Guy.  Not that I was done posting.



Ignore the click bait. This thread is very interesting, don't need any more sanctimony.


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## KPM (Nov 11, 2016)

Callen said:


> Out of curiosity, why all the critique?
> 
> .



Callen, you have to realize that Guy and LFJ have given WSLVT people a very bad rep here.  Recent threads are a perfect example of why.  Not long ago there was a long discussion where they both vehemently denied that WSLVT taught the Tan Da motion, despite people showing several pictures of WSLVT people and WSL himself performing a Tan Da!   And now here we see WSL doing a Tan Da during a seminar in which you yourself noted that he is teaching many core principles of WSLVT.  But I am sure the "dynamic duo" would still deny that Tan Da is used in WSLVT!  Or they will now figure out a way to argue that this is not REALLY what they meant in that prior discussion!


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## KPM (Nov 11, 2016)

Lobo66 said:


> He is showing exactly the opposite of chasing the arm.  In fact, he shows that if you remain in place and try to block the arm you will get hit.  Instead, he shows to control the space by moving quickly forward and on a slight diagonal, "cutting off" the punch and striking simultaneously.  This is a consistent theme in WSLVT.



No doubt!  I agree with you Lobo!  I only made the comment that I did because the dynamic duo tried to say that the Hok Bong in Pin Sun is indirect and the very definition of hand chasing according to them.  And yet it controls the space and opens up the path for the punch coming almost simultaneously behind it.  In fact, it is even less of "meeting force with force" than what WSL is showing in this video clip.  And I will note that WSL's Tan Sau is NOT directed into the opponent's center.  It is moving towards the opponent's punch.  But both are good and both work!


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## Callen (Nov 11, 2016)

KPM said:


> Callen, you have to realize that Guy and LFJ have given WSLVT people a very bad rep here. Recent threads are a perfect example of why. Not long ago there was a long discussion where they both vehemently denied that WSLVT taught the Tan Da motion, despite people showing several pictures of WSLVT people and WSL himself performing a Tan Da! And now here we see WSL doing a Tan Da during a seminar in which you yourself noted that he is teaching many core principles of WSLVT. But I am sure the "dynamic duo" would still deny that Tan Da is used in WSLVT! Or they will now figure out a way to argue that this is not REALLY what they meant in that prior discussion!



We all have to pick our battles. I don't see any real reason to go back and forth about what either one of their opinions might be in regards to what is or what isn't used in WSLVT (no offense to you of course). Why bother trying to find error in anyone else's understanding of the system. Be you, let others be themselves and focus on your own Wing Chun.

Starting a thread using a WSL video in an attempt to illustrate how others are wrong is simply seeking an argument. Having more humility removes the ego's need for something to prove. In the Wing Chun community, we are always going to hear different people share their personal interpretations of the system. It's up to us as good stewards to receive that information and decide what to do with it. We can chose to learn from it, we can take it personally, or we can let it go and accept that there are opinions other than our own.

Let's all give a shout-out to Wude, or Mo Dak, and not forget that Wing Chun is a Traditional Chinese form of Gong Fu. We should remember Wing Chun's cultural roots and allow true respect and humility to come to the forefront. Let it go...


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## Transk53 (Nov 11, 2016)

KPM said:


> Callen, you have to realize that Guy and LFJ have given WSLVT people a very bad rep here.  Recent threads are a perfect example of why.  Not long ago there was a long discussion where they both vehemently denied that WSLVT taught the Tan Da motion, despite people showing several pictures of WSLVT people and WSL himself performing a Tan Da!   And now here we see WSL doing a Tan Da during a seminar in which you yourself noted that he is teaching many core principles of WSLVT.  But I am sure the "dynamic duo" would still deny that Tan Da is used in WSLVT!  Or they will now figure out a way to argue that this is not REALLY what they meant in that prior discussion!



Maybe the dynamic duo need a group hug. Anyway, nice to see a tangible viewpoint from Callen. Out of curiosity, does the OP, any other member know what year that  seminar was? No particular point, Just curiosity.


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## KPM (Nov 11, 2016)

Callen said:


> We all have to pick our battles. I don't see any real reason to go back and forth about what either one of their opinions might be in regards to what is or what isn't used in WSLVT (no offense to you of course). Why bother trying to find error in anyone else's understanding of the system. Be you, let others be themselves and focus on your own Wing Chun.
> 
> Starting a thread using a WSL video in an attempt to illustrate how others are wrong is simply seeking an argument. Having more humility removes the ego's need for something to prove. In the Wing Chun community, we are always going to hear different people share their personal interpretations of the system. It's up to us as good stewards to receive that information and decide what to do with it. We can chose to learn from it, we can take it personally, or we can let it go and accept that there are opinions other than our own.
> 
> Let's all give a shout-out to Wude, or Mo Dak, and not forget that Wing Chun is a Traditional Chinese form of Gong Fu. We should remember Wing Chun's cultural roots and allow true respect and humility to come to the forefront. Let it go...



Of course you are right Callen!  Good to hear some common sense!  Unfortunately others in your lineage seem to have made it a purpose in their life to do exactly the opposite.  I will try to ignore them as best I can going forward.  Thanks!


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## LFJ (Nov 12, 2016)

KPM said:


> I said I was done trying to have any kind of productive discussion with you and Guy.





KPM said:


> I will try to ignore them as best I can going forward.



Then why the wink and eye roll when picking out _taan-da_? You're obviously trying to provoke a response.



KPM said:


> Not long ago there was a long discussion where they both vehemently denied that WSLVT taught the Tan Da motion, despite people showing several pictures of WSLVT people and WSL himself performing a Tan Da!



The pictures you posted of WSL were not _taan-da_, and one was not even a _taan-sau_.

What you were looking at was explained to you, but you have of course ignored it so you can carry on arguing.



> And now here we see WSL doing a Tan Da during a seminar



VT can't be learned in 20 minutes. In reality, SNT is not a set of applications. What is shown here are just superficial interpretations of the actions taken at face value, a take-home for people there for the afternoon.



KPM said:


> I only made the comment that I did because the dynamic duo tried to say that the Hok Bong in Pin Sun is indirect and the very definition of hand chasing according to them.  And yet it controls the space and opens up the path for the punch coming almost simultaneously behind it.



Your Hok Bong "follows" the opponent's arm all the way up and over your head.

There is no comparison with what is shown here.


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## jhexx (Nov 12, 2016)

Lobo66 said:


> He is showing exactly the opposite of chasing the arm.  In fact, he shows that if you remain in place and try to block the arm you will get hit.  Instead, he shows to control the space by moving quickly forward and on a slight diagonal, "cutting off" the punch and striking simultaneously.  This is a consistent theme in WSLVT.


Bingo. The footwork and angling opens up the opportunities for one to strike.


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## guy b (Nov 12, 2016)

KPM said:


> Callen, you have to realize that Guy and LFJ have given WSLVT people a very bad rep here. Recent threads are a perfect example of why. Not long ago there was a long discussion where they both vehemently denied that WSLVT taught the Tan Da motion, despite people showing several pictures of WSLVT people and WSL himself performing a Tan Da! And now here we see WSL doing a Tan Da during a seminar in which you yourself noted that he is teaching many core principles of WSLVT. But I am sure the "dynamic duo" would still deny that Tan Da is used in WSLVT! Or they will now figure out a way to argue that this is not REALLY what they meant in that prior discussion!



So you are "done" with discussion (for about the 50th time) but would still like to troll the forum with your misunderstanding of WSL VT. Got it.


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## Danny T (Nov 12, 2016)

Callen said:


> Out of curiosity, why all the critique?
> 
> There's a lot going on in the video. As I'm sure you're aware of, its extremely difficult to get the complete picture from a short clip of a seminar. He's not advocating any chasing hand principals here. He's just showing an example of implementing a driving elbow, while using a Tan Da shape to illustrate his point. If you look closely, you'll see that WSL is still pressing towards the gentleman's center and he's using the elbow as a piston to drive. It's not like he went way out with the Tan to intercept the swing.





Lobo66 said:


> He is showing exactly the opposite of chasing the arm.  In fact, he shows that if you remain in place and try to block the arm you will get hit.  Instead, he shows to control the space by moving quickly forward and on a slight diagonal, "cutting off" the punch and striking simultaneously.  This is a consistent theme in WSLVT.


Thank you for the description. Oh and for what it is worth, I agree.
I am asking the question because of the many times I've seen some others describe the same type actions as being 'chasing' and inefficient within the WSL method.


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## Transk53 (Nov 12, 2016)

Danny T said:


> Thank you for the description. Oh and for what it is worth, I agree.
> I am asking the question because of the many times I've seen some others describe the same type actions as being 'chasing' and inefficient within the WSL method.



Quick question. With chasing, what does that mean in a Wing Chun context?


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## geezer (Nov 12, 2016)

o-





Transk53 said:


> Quick question. With chasing, what does that mean in a Wing Chun context?



For the "correct" answer you know who you need to ask. I can only speak from my incomplete understanding of the broken WC/WT/VT I have studied which I will henceforth refer to as "BVT" (Broken Ving Tsun) so you will not confuse it with the correct VT others may study. 

Now from the standpoint of BVT,_ chasing_ refers to attempting an attack or defense indirectly by following your opponent's hand movements off-center rather than by executing  direct attacks at your opponent along center.

So rather than concern ourselves with inefficient and typically _late_ attempts at responding to our opponent's hand movements, we seek to attack and dominate centerline, forcing the opponent to respond to our movements.

If our centerline attacks are intercepted or obstructed, then we employ a remedial action to free our attack and clear the way to continue attacking according to the motto, _"Loi lau hoi sung, lat sau jik chung"._

When analyzing an exchange _(for learning purposes) _we look to see if we have moved as efficiently as possible, without unnecessary deviation from a direct path to attack. Optimally, our defenses should be a byproduct of the attack itself _(da sau juk si siu sau --attacking hand is defending hand) _and be executed as a single movement with the punch functioning also as our defense. If that is not possible, then we seek simultaneous attack and defense _(lin siu di dar) _coordinating both hands to work together as with tan-da, gaun-da, fook-da, lap-da, etc.

I agree with what has previously been said about there being an _objective_ standard about what is the best VT, at least with the BVT I train. If, for example you can break down an exchange and show me wasted movement, or unnecessary and off-center movement responding to my opponent's hands, or other inefficiencies, then you are showing me _errors_ in my VT. And that is true regardless of the system you practice. For example I've had people like my _Escrima_ coaches Rene Latosa and Martin Torres show me more efficient ways to move. In that instance, they weren't just teaching me FMA, they were correcting my VT.


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## Transk53 (Nov 12, 2016)

geezer said:


> o-
> 
> For the "correct" answer you know who you need to ask. I can only speak from my incomplete understanding of the broken WC/WT/VT I have studied which I will henceforth refer to as "BVT" (Broken Ving Tsun) so you will not confuse it with the correct VT others may study.
> 
> ...



Yes, and I would not doubt you're wisdom on this. Of course fighting efficiency is not dictated by form, technique or otherwise, in my less than educated viewpoint of course. Chasing is a very very natural thing thing in my in my arsenal then.


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## KPM (Nov 12, 2016)

Transk53 said:


> Quick question. With chasing, what does that mean in a Wing Chun context?



Here was my explanation on the other thread:

If you do a system that is focused on only punching the opponent, then "arm chasing" becomes anything that isn't directed into the opponent's center for the purpose of making the way for the punch which ideally should be happening at the same time. Its like driving a wedge into the opponent's center. Anything that deviates off of the line of drive of that wedge is considered wasted motion and therefore "arm chasing."

But if you do a system that is not no narrowly defined, "arm chasing" is also not so narrowly defined. If you do a system that allows for controlling the opponent, for responding without necessarily always punching them out, for Kum Na type applications, and for the possibility of defending against a weapon, then "arm chasing" is not defined the same way. But we still need to be as direct as possible. We still need to have our ultimate goal as controlling the opponent's center...whether by a strike or a body manipulation, etc. So I define "arm chasing" as anything that distracts from that goal. I think if you do more than three counts in a particular technique or defense without affecting the opponent's center and his balance in some way....then you are "arm chasing" because you have lost your focus. For example.....if an opponent throws a relatively long range extended punch that allows me to come under it with a double grab (what we call a "Lung Na") and then pivot to guide him past me and yank him off his feet, I have definitely avoided an attack and dissolved the threat. But this would be "arm chasing" by the other definition.


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## Transk53 (Nov 12, 2016)

KPM said:


> Here was my explanation on the other thread:
> 
> If you do a system that is focused on only punching the opponent, then "arm chasing" becomes anything that isn't directed into the opponent's center for the purpose of making the way for the punch which ideally should be happening at the same time. Its like driving a wedge into the opponent's center. Anything that deviates off of the line of drive of that wedge is considered wasted motion and therefore "arm chasing."
> 
> But if you do a system that is not no narrowly defined, "arm chasing" is also not so narrowly defined. If you do a system that allows for controlling the opponent, for responding without necessarily always punching them out, for Kum Na type applications, and for the possibility of defending against a weapon, then "arm chasing" is not defined the same way. But we still need to be as direct as possible. We still need to have our ultimate goal as controlling the opponent's center...whether by a strike or a body manipulation, etc. So I define "arm chasing" as anything that distracts from that goal. I think if you do more than three counts in a particular technique or defense without affecting the opponent's center and his balance in some way....then you are "arm chasing" because you have lost your focus. For example.....if an opponent throws a relatively long range extended punch that allows me to come under it with a double grab (what we call a "Lung Na") and then pivot to guide him past me and yank him off his feet, I have definitely avoided an attack and dissolved the threat. But this would be "arm chasing" by the other definition.



Yeah, somewhat confused by that, but I do think I know what you are saying. A long range extended punch to me would be a be deflect, followed by a deflect kick or a knee. Depending on how I stood off, or closed the distance. If I stand off, generally I will go for the lock. Tie thier arms up, I have myriad options to push, squash and what not. To me that would be chasing the arm. Of course though, if I had a oponent  in a lock, a leg sweep would be the natural course of action. Loss of focus is not something I quite understand.


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## LFJ (Nov 13, 2016)

KPM said:


> Here was my explanation on the other thread:
> 
> If you do a system that is focused on only punching the opponent, then "arm chasing" becomes anything that isn't directed into the opponent's center for the purpose of making the way for the punch which ideally should be happening at the same time. Its like driving a wedge into the opponent's center. Anything that deviates off of the line of drive of that wedge is considered wasted motion and therefore "arm chasing."



Why even attempt to define and explain a system you have no experience with and don't understand?

By this definition, _jat-sau_ would be arm-chasing, since it's not even going forward. Something must be wrong with your theory.

Arm-chasing is fixating on controlling arms rather than space. This can happen even if one maintains center. Most often it's because people don't understand range, tactical footwork, angling, etc.. They stay out, playing straight line and messing with hands on center. This is still arm-chasing.


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## guy b (Nov 13, 2016)

LFJ said:


> Why even attempt to define and explain a system you have no experience with and don't understand?
> 
> By this definition, _jat-sau_ would be arm-chasing, since it's not even going forward. Something must be wrong with your theory.
> 
> Arm-chasing is fixating on controlling arms rather than space. This can happen even if one maintains center. Most often it's because people don't understand range, tactical footwork, angling, etc.. They stay out, playing straight line and messing with hands on center. This is still arm-chasing.



Good post


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## KPM (Nov 13, 2016)

Unfortunately, no translator for this one:


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## guy b (Nov 13, 2016)

KPM said:


> Unfortunately, no translator for this one:



What of it?


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## KPM (Nov 13, 2016)

^^^^ Thread was started with footage of WSL teaching SNT.  Thought it would be nice to have some footage of him going over Chum Kiu as well.  What of it?


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## Transk53 (Nov 13, 2016)

guy b said:


> What of it?



What of it. Perhaps you're expert view, and training in WSLVT will suffice. I mean you like technician grade right?


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## Transk53 (Nov 13, 2016)

LFJ said:


> Why even attempt to define and explain a system you have no experience with and don't understand?
> 
> By this definition, _jat-sau_ would be arm-chasing, since it's not even going forward. Something must be wrong with your theory.
> 
> *Arm-chasing is fixating on controlling arms rather than space*. This can happen even if one maintains center. Most often it's because people don't understand range, tactical footwork, angling, etc.. They stay out, playing straight line and messing with hands on center. This is still arm-chasing.



No it's not. Space is always avalibel. Push, pull or whatever. Controlling the arms is always an allie with space. Space never disappears, just the environment dictates with what to work with. Space though, is always there. Guess one has to have the menatality to understand that, not just relying on doctrine. Which invariably fails, if one does not understand the environment!


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## guy b (Nov 13, 2016)

Transk53 said:


> No it's not. Space is always avalibel. Push, pull or whatever. Controlling the arms is always an allie with space. Space never disappears, just the environment dictates with what to work with. Space though, is always there. Guess one has to have the menatality to understand that, not just relying on doctrine. Which invariably fails, if one does not understand the environment!



Why on earth are you posting on a wing chun forum?


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## Transk53 (Nov 13, 2016)

guy b said:


> Why on earth are you posting on a wing chun forum?



Why not. Are you that prejudiced against against other members posting. Obviously so. Do you really believe that you offer anything on this forum, other than a petty belief that you are right, and everybody else is wrong, is going to prevail. I will post on this forum whenever I feel I wish too. I don't need any permission to do so, least of all from some WSLVT nerd, who obviously does not have the capacity to accept other viewpoints, whether they are right or wrong. A forum is exchange of ideas and knowledge which in itself is to expand the mind, I left with the impression that yourse is fully closed. So, why on earth do you post on a Wing Chun forum?


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## guy b (Nov 14, 2016)

Transk53 said:


> Why not. Are you that prejudiced against against other members posting. Obviously so. Do you really believe that you offer anything on this forum, other than a petty belief that you are right, and everybody else is wrong, is going to prevail. I will post on this forum whenever I feel I wish too. I don't need any permission to do so, least of all from some WSLVT nerd, who obviously does not have the capacity to accept other viewpoints, whether they are right or wrong. A forum is exchange of ideas and knowledge which in itself is to expand the mind, I left with the impression that yourse is fully closed. So, why on earth do you post on a Wing Chun forum?



I'm not asking by what authority you post on the wing chun forum. I'm asking why do you do it?

Obviously it is an open forum and you can post whatever you like, but when you go in the space of a couple of posts from asking what is hand chasing, to arguing about the detail of hand chasing with someone who has a deep understanding of the system, then it is difficult to understand your motivation.

You seem quite an emotional guy and you have said yourself that you have reading comprehension problems. You also have zero understanding of the system. Perhaps then it would be better, not just for me but also for you and everyone else, if you listened more and gave your opinion less? Just a suggestion.


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## Transk53 (Nov 14, 2016)

guy b said:


> I'm not asking by what authority you post on the wing chun forum. I'm asking why do you do it?
> 
> Obviously it is an open forum and you can post whatever you like, but when you go in the space of a couple of posts from asking what is hand chasing, to arguing about the detail of hand chasing with someone who has a deep understanding of the system, then it is simply baffling to understand your motivation.
> 
> You seem quite an emotional guy and you have said yourself that you have reading comprhension problems. You anso have zero understanding of the system. Perhaps then it would be better, not just for me but also for you and everyone else, if you listened more and gave your opinion less. Just a suggestion.



Yeah I do listen, and no, I am not an emotional guy, quite the opposite. Of course though, you are entitled to your opinion, and on who has a deep understanding of the system, whether that is right or wrong. If some of the experts on here tell me to listen more, and my use of my ask and digest approach, then ask again, is not at all valid, then of course I will digest what they say, and listen


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