# Kyokshinkai hardening



## Abison (Nov 3, 2016)

G'day, this is my first post, I'm so glad this forum exists.

My name is Jorge, (Or George) I live in Venezuela and I'm 20 years old.
I've always loved martial arts but I couldn't join an dojo until recently (Like five months ago) where I practice kyokushin.

I'm fit, I practice calisthenics from a long time ago, and after reading some forums and watching some of Sosai Oyama documentaries I feel I need to train a bit harder in my body hardening.

There's a full makiwara in the dojo I practice and I want to know how I should use it, by this I mean how much times should I punch it or kick it with different parts of my body, also my dad seems igor to help me in my interests (In two months I'm going to try my first exam so I can change my white belt) and when I'm training at home he punches my abs until it starts to hurt.

Please, share your tips and opinions with me!

Greetings from Venezuela, big hugs and excuse my poor english.


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## drop bear (Nov 3, 2016)

Cardio.


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## Abison (Nov 3, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Cardio.



That's not exactly the answer I'm looking for, but thanks.
What I was looking for is hardening routines for hands, like seiken, hiraken, feet, like haisoku, and abdominal area.


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## hoshin1600 (Nov 3, 2016)

The makiwara is important for proper form and power but it depends on the construction of the makiwara.   is it nothing more than wood or is it really padded? How much will it move when hit?  For me makiwara is more for the hips than the hands.  My advise would be try not to bruise and be careful of your shoulders.


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## Abison (Nov 3, 2016)

hoshin1600 said:


> The makiwara is important for proper form and power but it depends on the construction of the makiwara.   is it nothing more than wood or is it really padded? How much will it move when hit?  For me makiwara is more for the hips than the hands.  My advise would be try not to bruise and be careful of your shoulders.



Well is a pretty well constructed makiwara, my sensei constructed it himself and he's very proud of it. Some stations move a lot and others don't at all, depends on ''how well trained you are'' as my sensei says.


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## Charlemagne (Nov 3, 2016)

One of the more potent stimuli for bone mineral density increases is impact, so use of a makiwara can definitely be something to consider as long as you start off very slowly (low number of punches/kicks, etc. and low levels of force) and work into it slowly.  And by slowly, I mean increasing slowly over the course of a few years to where you are working at full intensity, not increasing over a few weeks or months.  Guys like Oyama got that way through years of dedicated training, not overnight, so take it very slowly.  You are likely to see an inflammatory response when you start, which is actually good for tissue healing and adaptation, but if it doesn't go away over time, back down and then build back up again slowly.  

The second and third stimuli for bone density changes are related to loading of the bones (compression and flexion) and the easiest and safest way to get this is through a solid resistance training program that incorporates solid multi-joint lifts like the back squat, bench press, overhead press, the Olympic lifts and their derivatives, etc.


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## drop bear (Nov 4, 2016)

Abison said:


> That's not exactly the answer I'm looking for, but thanks.
> What I was looking for is hardening routines for hands, like seiken, hiraken, feet, like haisoku, and abdominal area.



Cardio hardens the will.


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## Ironbear24 (Nov 4, 2016)

These questions are things you should ask your Sensei, I mean that in the most polite way. He knows better than any of us how he wants you to be training. 

In my experiences body hardening comes from working out through strength training but most importantly, get hit. Get hit a lot and the more you get hit the more conditioned your body will be for it. It is more of a mental thing than it is a body thing.


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## JR 137 (Nov 4, 2016)

You've been at it for 5 months?  I know you're excited and a bit restless, but you the best advice is talk to your sensei.  He knows what you're doing in class and what you could/should do outside the dojo far better than people on the internet do.  He sees you in person; we don't.  He knows your strengths and weaknesses, and probably better than you do.

Don't be afraid to ask what you should be doing outside the dojo.  Teachers like it when students take the initiative of asking how they can improve; it shows that they're eager to learn and are dedicated to their training.

Your teacher is a far better resource than anyone online could ever be.  He's the one you trusted to teach you, and the one who sees you train in person.  We'll all be guessing what you need.  If you really want to do makiwara and/or body hardening at home, ask him what you should focus on and what materials to use.  Body hardening should be a gradual process that follows a specific plan.  It's easy to mess up and/or overdo.


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## Buka (Nov 4, 2016)

Welcome to Martialtalk, bro. You will find like minded people here.


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## Kickboxer101 (Nov 4, 2016)

Not saying what to do but to me punching that thing isn't always great I've seen a few older karate guys who use it and now they're hands are all screwed up and they can't make a proper fist because of the constant damage they've given their hands over the years. Personally I think a punch bag is enough to condition your knuckles


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## drop bear (Nov 4, 2016)

Knuckle push ups would probably be a more efficient use of your time.

You are only as strong as your weakest link. So having tough knuckles doesn't help if you have weak wrists.

And the push ups will hit all of it. 

Start off with some padding on the floor.  It can take months to a year to condition yourself to get stronger.


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## Abison (Nov 7, 2016)

G'day buds. My computer clusterfucked and I couldn't read you guys replies, thank you for your tips. I started slowly by doing some knuckle pushup routines like drop bear said and also I'm going to have a talk with my sensei today, like JR 137 and Ironbear24 said.

Yes I'm kind of new in this martial art and I'm only by thinking in getting better.

Thank you again!


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## lklawson (Nov 8, 2016)

Kickboxer101 said:


> Not saying what to do but to me punching that thing isn't always great I've seen a few older karate guys who use it and now they're hands are all screwed up and they can't make a proper fist because of the constant damage they've given their hands over the years. Personally I think a punch bag is enough to condition your knuckles






Bart J. Doran, 1889 boxing manual, _Science of Self Defense_ - EXERCISING AT THE "WALL-PAD"

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## TieXiongJi (Dec 22, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Cardio.


Not nearly enough....


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## TieXiongJi (Dec 22, 2016)

Hi Abison,

I mainly used Wall and Punching Bags during my karate training. Remember, each training tool is just a tool which was available at the time it was created. There are newer methods for training body hardening than the Makiwara. Just wanted to mention that.

I did some training on Makiwara and hand conditioning. Make sure to talk to your instructor about the proper topical medicines to help your body recover. The hardening training is painful and requires a good amount of will to consistently hit the board on Wednesday night after class when you also did it Monday, oh and Saturday. Your will feel less and less pain over time, but it takes a long time.
The basics of hitting the Makiwara are available online, so I won't go into that.
I just recommend healing ointment and lotions, rest time between training and listen to your body to know if you had enough.

Further note:
A teacher of a teacher recounted a conversation his master once had.
Student: "Sir. I would like to know the secret to the Single Strike. How could I punch so hard that I can stop a man with one hit?"
Teacher: "If you want to hit a man hard with your fist, train by hitting a bag of rocks. Your hands will grow dense and strong, then you can hit a man very hard."
Student: "Yes, sir. Do you have any advice about this training before I begin?"
Teacher: "You will have arthritis when you are my age (~70). You are unlikely to ever need to punch a man so hard that he is stopped in a single hit. And it will take many years of repetitive, slow, damaging training."
Student: "Oh wow. I don't know if I want to pursue it."
Teacher: "Good. Now, let's continue training for your real life."

Try not to go overboard on self defense and causing damage.


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## drop bear (Dec 22, 2016)

TieXiongJi said:


> Not nearly enough....



Lol. 

The last time i sparred KK cardio was pretty much my biggest issue. Because there is so much toe to toe trading. 

My lungs gave out well before my hands did.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 23, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Knuckle push ups would probably be a more efficient use of your time.
> 
> You are only as strong as your weakest link. So having tough knuckles doesn't help if you have weak wrists.
> 
> ...


That's a useful exercise, but not the same thing as body hardening. Strength is another side of conditioning, as is cardio (which, as you said, does give you a chance to "harden" your willpower).


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## drop bear (Dec 23, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> That's a useful exercise, but not the same thing as body hardening. Strength is another side of conditioning, as is cardio (which, as you said, does give you a chance to "harden" your willpower).



Body hardening will pretty much happen anyway. you just spar bulk rounds.

You could stand there and eat shots on your own time I suppose. But for something like that you may as well combine it with punching back.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 23, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Body hardening will pretty much happen anyway. you just spar bulk rounds.
> 
> You could stand there and eat shots on your own time I suppose. But for something like that you may as well combine it with punching back.


It can be sped up - especially hardening the arms and legs, with specific techniques that are gentler than taking a block, so they can be done in quantity. There are some distinct advantages to building up slowly, such as the ability to harden with fewer injuries along the way.


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## drop bear (Dec 23, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> It can be sped up - especially hardening the arms and legs, with specific techniques that are gentler than taking a block, so they can be done in quantity. There are some distinct advantages to building up slowly, such as the ability to harden with fewer injuries along the way.



The guys who use this method are fundimentally tougher than your average KK guy?


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 23, 2016)

drop bear said:


> The guys who use this method are fundimentally tougher than your average KK guy?


I think the average KK guy uses some of these techniques as part of their training. Things like sparring and heavy blocking drills will produce much of the same result, but with more injuries along the way.


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## TieXiongJi (Dec 24, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Lol.
> 
> The last time i sparred KK cardio was pretty much my biggest issue. Because there is so much toe to toe trading.
> 
> My lungs gave out well before my hands did.



Your fighting stamina is not only based on cardio. You ever notice your instructor keeps reminding you to calm down, don't use techniques without a strategy, only block if you can't dodge? Keep your breathing steady and rhythmic similar to running. Don't attack without a goal. Don't let your opponent attack you; either take the initiative or make it very difficult to get hit.


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## drop bear (Dec 24, 2016)

TieXiongJi said:


> Your fighting stamina is not only based on cardio. You ever notice your instructor keeps reminding you to calm down, don't use techniques without a strategy, only block if you can't dodge? Keep your breathing steady and rhythmic similar to running. Don't attack without a goal. Don't let your opponent attack you; either take the initiative or make it very difficult to get hit.



Yeah. I get a different sort of banter from my coach.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 24, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Yeah. I get a different sort of banter from my coach.


I was waiting for your reply, and was not disappointed.


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## Juany118 (Dec 24, 2016)

TieXiongJi said:


> Your fighting stamina is not only based on cardio. You ever notice your instructor keeps reminding you to calm down, don't use techniques without a strategy, only block if you can't dodge? Keep your breathing steady and rhythmic similar to running. Don't attack without a goal. Don't let your opponent attack you; either take the initiative or make it very difficult to get hit.


Someone with cardio and self control will last longer than someone with only cardio but without that cardio base the self control doesn't amount to lot, skill being equal.

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