# Daedo



## ATC (Apr 24, 2012)

We had the developers of Daedo out at our school to demo and test their latest hardware and software and got some interesting info from them. They are coming out with hogu sizes for kids 00 and 0 and new instep guards as well.

The info is specific to the Snappy kick vs. the Power kick and why the snappy registers when the power kick does not. I was told that it is indeed a design feature and is intended for just that. The developers are black belts and did not look at making the system based on competitions but rather correct technique. The system uses proximity sensors along with impact sensors. The proximity sensors measure velocity and then the impact sensors measure force. If you don't have what they consider a high enough velocity then no matter how much impact or pressure you have it won't register. They base this on their ITF technique and training when they were taught TKD. They also have Black Belts in Shotokan Karate. Their premise is on making sure you use correct technique and not just rely on power or muscle techniques. They gave the analogy of taking a towel and swinging it very hard and as fast as you can like swinging a stick through something and to hit someone. Then take that same towel and snap it on someone. The whip effect is what has more velocity and sting vs. the simple swing. You still need power but you also need the velocity as well. Don&#8217;t get me wrong, you can be very strong and hit with a ton of power and break someone&#8217;s bones. But was the technique correct? Now we have a different issue at hand. Which is, should any kick with simply enough force be a scoring kick. If what I was told is correct then the system is working as intended. Now do we ask for the intentions to be changed? Should a kick simply just be any old type of kick that hits with enough force or do we want correct kicks? besides if you can hit hard enough to break bones then you are most likely moving fast enough to score, regardless of technique.

They said that the round kick should have the same effect as the towel, with proper hip and pivot movement at the end of the kick. They also stated that the cut kick now needs to have that same type of velocity and snap to score, rather than simply pushing forward with an extended leg and jumping into the hogu and scoring a pushy type kick.

The guy was impressed with our students and stated that he had just come from another school (won't mention the name here) and that they had a hard time scoring using the system. He stated that they had really bad technique. We had one kid that was only 9 test the system and they guy said that his velocity and power were really good. We had some students that had some trouble with the system but when using the same equipment with students with better technique they had no issue with scoring.

It again goes back to what I was thinking and talking about in another thread, and that is that one may think they are hitting hard and with good technique but in reality that may not be the case. I see many competitors kick really hard but with an almost straight leg. They have some bend but not much and the kick hits with a lot of pressure but with no snap or what I call inside impact. I have stated a few times before that I have been hit by some pretty big guys and yes it hurts. But the hardest I have been hit is from a guy 135 pounds. His kicks do not move me but I feel them deep inside my body. Big guys kicks move me and hurt to some extent but his kicks just double me over. He kicks with snap on everything.

Just and FYI.


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## Archtkd (Apr 24, 2012)

ATC said:


> The info is specific to the Snappy kick vs. the Power kick and why the snappy registers when the power kick does not. I was told that it is indeed a design feature and is intended for just that. The developers are black belts and did not look at making the system based on competitions but rather correct technique. The system uses proximity sensors along with impact sensors. The proximity sensors measure velocity and then the impact sensors measure force. If you don't have what they consider a high enough velocity then no matter how much impact or pressure you have it won't register. They base this on their ITF technique and training when they were taught TKD. They also have Black Belts in Shotokan Karate. Their premise is on making sure you use correct technique and not just rely on power or muscle techniques. They gave the analogy of taking a towel and swinging it very hard and as fast as you can like swinging a stick through something and to hit someone. Then take that same towel and snap it on someone. The whip effect is what has more velocity and sting vs. the simple swing. You still need power but you also need the velocity as well. Don&#8217;t get me wrong, you can be very strong and hit with a ton of power and break someone&#8217;s bones. But was the technique correct? Now we have a different issue at hand. Which is, should any kick with simply enough force be a scoring kick. If what I was told is correct then the system is working as intended. Now do we ask for the intentions to be changed? Should a kick simply just be any old type of kick that hits with enough force or do we want correct kicks? besides if you can hit hard enough to break bones then you are most likely moving fast enough to score, regardless of technique.
> 
> They said that the round kick should have the same effect as the towel, with proper hip and pivot movement at the end of the kick. They also stated that the cut kick now needs to have that same type of velocity and snap to score, rather than simply pushing forward with an extended leg and jumping into the hogu and scoring a pushy type kick.
> 
> ...




Very interesting


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## armortkd (Apr 24, 2012)

ATC said:


> We had the developers of Daedo out at our school to demo and test their latest hardware and software and got some interesting info from them. They are coming out with hogu sizes for kids 00 and 0 and new instep guards as well.
> 
> The info is specific to the Snappy kick vs. the Power kick and why the snappy registers when the power kick does not. I was told that it is indeed a design feature and is intended for just that. The developers are black belts and did not look at making the system based on competitions but rather correct technique. The system uses proximity sensors along with impact sensors. The proximity sensors measure velocity and then the impact sensors measure force. If you don't have what they consider a high enough velocity then no matter how much impact or pressure you have it won't register. They base this on their ITF technique and training when they were taught TKD. They also have Black Belts in Shotokan Karate. Their premise is on making sure you use correct technique and not just rely on power or muscle techniques. They gave the analogy of taking a towel and swinging it very hard and as fast as you can like swinging a stick through something and to hit someone. Then take that same towel and snap it on someone. The whip effect is what has more velocity and sting vs. the simple swing. You still need power but you also need the velocity as well. Dont get me wrong, you can be very strong and hit with a ton of power and break someones bones. But was the technique correct? Now we have a different issue at hand. Which is, should any kick with simply enough force be a scoring kick. If what I was told is correct then the system is working as intended. Now do we ask for the intentions to be changed? Should a kick simply just be any old type of kick that hits with enough force or do we want correct kicks? besides if you can hit hard enough to break bones then you are most likely moving fast enough to score, regardless of technique.
> 
> ...



That's great info that the developers of Daedo provided and thanks for posting it!!! I was talking with a friend and told him that I hypothesized that the kick had to "spike" to score. He owes me $20 now!!!


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## Manny (Apr 24, 2012)

Thank you for the info, if I got you must kick like a whip to score, so basically the point is awarded by two factors, power and whip (good technik).

No matter you make good contact and good force or impact you must whip the kick, so maybe then a pett chagui will not score of all becaus the foot travels oblique and the dollyo chagui (where the suporting foot spins 180º) and the kicking foot hits like a whip in a perpendicular way will score most of the times.

I will like to see daedo electrnoic hogu but wahta about the e-headgear or e-helmet? and wahta about the e-glove (for punches)?

Manny


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## Gorilla (Apr 24, 2012)

Great post Art!!!  I have some comments will reply later


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## Gorilla (Apr 24, 2012)

Some problems I have is that they designed the equipment based on some unknown blackbelt view of proper technique and did not take competion or the rules intoaccount. This was true of lajust also. The rule states strike with any part of the foot below the ankle bone and nothing of proper technique.  You have played with the system I am sure that you are aware of how shake off kick to decrease the power of the attacker.  This is common at the elite level make the head kick more important.  It has changed the game.  We have spoken with and trained with Olympians past and present and everyone said the game has changed. Some like some don't but all have had to change what they do.

I don't have a problem with any system.  Change the rules or design a system that fits the rule set.  Would prefer to see the electronic head gear used also.


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## ATC (Apr 25, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> Some problems I have is that they designed the equipment based on some unknown blackbelt view of proper technique and did not take competion or the rules intoaccount. This was true of lajust also. The rule states strike with any part of the foot below the ankle bone and nothing of proper technique.  You have played with the system I am sure that you are aware of how shake off kick to decrease the power of the attacker.  This is common at the elite level make the head kick more important.  It has changed the game.  We have spoken with and trained with Olympians past and present and everyone said the game has changed. Some like some don't but all have had to change what they do.
> 
> I don't have a problem with any system.  Change the rules or design a system that fits the rule set.  Would prefer to see the electronic head gear used also.


Yep that is why I say now the debate should be about the system intentions. Not if the system works or not.

The E-head gear works pretty good by the way.


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## Gorilla (Apr 25, 2012)

100% agree,  it is very interesting of they put these systems together.  Lajust consulted with the WTF. Whoever They spoke with thought that backside scoring was way to common so they made sure lajust did not put sensors in the back eliminating back side scoring.  The reason that we don't have the  electronic head gear is because they want to keep the referees in the scoring.  They have the technology to score punches also but the WTF wont allow for the same reason.

It is not a surprise that one of the designers of Daedo is a Shotokan guy.  They designed a system that makes Tkd look more like Shotokan.  Funakoshi's revenge!


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## Manny (Apr 25, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> It is not a surprise that one of the designers of Daedo is a Shotokan guy. They designed a system that makes Tkd look more like Shotokan. Funakoshi's revenge!



Wow!!!! deon't feed the trolls LOL!!!

I think that we need to have at an accesible prize (so dojangs can have at leat one pair of hogus in diferent sizes) good electronic equipment, if daedo system works using the power of whip kicks that's ok as long has this will be the only one e-equipment so everyone can use one of the hogus and feel satisfied with it and know that no matter they do sparring in his/her dojang or in teh local or national or even international match the same equipment is gona be used so the competitor does not have to change the way of the game.

I think at dojang level the equipment must be affordable so the students can be familiar with it and learn how to score with it.

Manny


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## Manny (Apr 25, 2012)

I think the e-hogu must be:
1.-Affordable.
2.-Acurate.
3.-Durable.
4.-No need of e-socks or e-gloves (I don't like this kind of devices with sensores) the hogu must work bare foot and hand.
4.-The punch can and must score.

Anithing else?

Manny


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## terryl965 (Apr 25, 2012)

The problem is they will never be affordable for all period. That is the way of life, those that can offord will and succeed and those that cannot will just be doing the old style tournaments. Don't worry if you have talentt somebody will find you and take over your training for the gain kater in life.


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## Tenchi (Apr 27, 2012)

This is good news... yet irrelevant. WTF rules have been constantly changing in what matters to kicks to the head. The fact is, while apparently development is being made so that one can only score with a correct technique at the torso (which will improve accurate technique and imo, better development of what Taekwondo is), scoring to the head is more advantageous point wise and now, even in terms of actual technique. Apparently, any touch with the foot to the head is now point worthy, regardless of technique or power. Basically, raise your leg and if you so much as poke your opponent's head, you score.


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## Gorilla (Apr 27, 2012)

Whose version of correct technique.  The WTF or some random black belt at the manufacturer.  Or a bureaucrat with an agenda at the WTF.  The rule on kicks to the body have not changed.  I can deal with rule changes!

The current systems were developed with personal agendas in mind not the rules!

Changes the rules OK! but eh systems must be designed for the current rule set.


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## ATC (Apr 27, 2012)

I think most if not all of the top competitors in the world, will have good enough technique to score on the hogu. I also think that many not all, of the above average competitors will also have enough technique to score on the hogu.

If you think about it, only the catagories of Top and Above Average are who really need to worry about this anyways. Everyone else does this game just for fun and won't get anywhere near a National title, World Championships, or the Olympics. Everyone else will compete at local tournaments with judges with triggers. The system is really designed for the Elite, those that kick so fast that judges can't score properly. I think this is why the same names just stay on top. They are just that much better than eveyone else. And it is the everyone else that complains. The compaints may not even matter in the end.


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## armortkd (Apr 27, 2012)

Electronic Hogu & Scoring: Making the easy kicks harder to score & Making the difficult kicks easier to score (with point differential).


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## Gorilla (Apr 28, 2012)

Agreed...top end fighters can score on the system...they also know how to game the system...on the girls side it has become all lead leg....cut kicks and those snappy little kicks to the head....2010 Spanish open one of the Current USAT National team coaches said that the Europeans are starting to look like Karate fighters...my son has fought 6 matches on Daedo against high end juniors 2of them national team members only had 2 body points score on him in 6 matches...if you know what you are doing you can make it very difficult for your opponent to land those sensors flush...even of they have good technique....he won 4 fights lost 2.  Damn head kicks


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## ATC (May 2, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> Agreed...top end fighters can score on the system...they also know how to game the system...on the girls side it has become all lead leg....cut kicks and those snappy little kicks to the head....2010 Spanish open one of the Current USAT National team coaches said that the Europeans are starting to look like Karate fighters...my son has fought 6 matches on Daedo against high end juniors 2of them national team members only had 2 body points score on him in 6 matches...if you know what you are doing you can make it very difficult for your opponent to land those sensors flush...even of they have good technique....he won 4 fights lost 2.  Damn head kicks


Yes, going to the body is now harder. Guarding actully works now. It use to be that you could guard but still get points scored on you, not anymore, I like this. Also you can reduce impact now by moving with the kick, again, I like this. It goes with they teaching of moving or rolling with a kick or punch to minimize impact. I know for the sport it changed some things, but I think the change can make you better at everything.

Here is a clip of the guys that came out to our studio. He talks a bit about his engineering background and his son but not he MA background.
[yt]XZpNIF8T9Ss[/yt]


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## Gorilla (May 2, 2012)

Well said art...you gave me a new perspective on rolling with the kicks.

My only real objection is that these two guys basically rewrote the sport.  I would have to agree that they have designed the best system.  The whole foot should score not parts of it.


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## Gorilla (May 2, 2012)

I will be at the Canadian open next week.  Will give a report!


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## ATC (May 3, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> Well said art...you gave me a new perspective on rolling with the kicks.
> 
> *My only real objection is that these two guys basically rewrote the sport*.  I would have to agree that they have designed the best system.  The whole foot should score not parts of it.


Now that is a true statement. And all because his kid was not winning.


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## ATC (May 3, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> I will be at the Canadian open next week.  Will give a report!


Good luck to you and the kids.

We just worked out with the Daedo tonight and I really like the updated software. That is another thing I forgot to mention. Many times at tournaments they don't have the updated software or firmware. I know what we had in the dojang was not updated and once he updated the software and the hardware we did not have some of the issue we were having. The system now always connects, before we would lose connectivity to one or more hogus and have to reset things. Before the upgrade we did not get the power reading during the match. Now we see the power numbers for every kick. So if the system is set to score a point at a level or 25 let's say, we now see why a kick did not score, example good hit, nice noise but we now see that the kick was only a 22. So now we see that the hit was not hard enough.

So during your matches just watch the screen and when you see a point or don't see a point look at the number in the lower conners of each player just below the score. You will see a small number, that number is the power or impact output number. If you look to the upper left of the screen you will alse see a number that is the power setting needed to score a point.


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## andyjeffries (May 3, 2012)

ATC said:


> Before the upgrade we did not get the power reading during the match. Now we see the power numbers for every kick. So if the system is set to score a point at a level or 25 let's say, we now see why a kick did not score, example good hit, nice noise but we now see that the kick was only a 22. So now we see that the hit was not hard enough.
> 
> So during your matches just watch the screen and when you see a point or don't see a point look at the number in the lower conners of each player just below the score. You will see a small number, that number is the power or impact output number. If you look to the upper left of the screen you will alse see a number that is the power setting needed to score a point.



You can see this happening if you watch the live ETU European Championships happening right now:

http://www.gbtaekwondo.tv/freestream

I'm watching Ring 2 full screen and you can see them in the bottom right of the screen.

Can't wait for Saturday to be there!!!


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## andyjeffries (May 3, 2012)

By the way, for those of you that aren't awake but want to know what it looks like out of interest...


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## ralphmcpherson (May 3, 2012)

ATC said:


> Good luck to you and the kids.
> 
> We just worked out with the Daedo tonight and I really like the updated software. That is another thing I forgot to mention. Many times at tournaments they don't have the updated software or firmware. I know what we had in the dojang was not updated and once he updated the software and the hardware we did not have some of the issue we were having. The system now always connects, before we would lose connectivity to one or more hogus and have to reset things. Before the upgrade we did not get the power reading during the match. Now we see the power numbers for every kick. So if the system is set to score a point at a level or 25 let's say, we now see why a kick did not score, example good hit, nice noise but we now see that the kick was only a 22. So now we see that the hit was not hard enough.
> 
> So during your matches just watch the screen and when you see a point or don't see a point look at the number in the lower conners of each player just below the score. You will see a small number, that number is the power or impact output number. If you look to the upper left of the screen you will alse see a number that is the power setting needed to score a point.


Thanks for the information ATC. I like the idea that the spectator can see what is required to score and can therefore quickly see why a kick didnt score.


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## ATC (May 3, 2012)

andyjeffries said:


> By the way, for those of you that aren't awake but want to know what it looks like out of interest...
> 
> View attachment 16355


Yep. Power set to 38 (that is blasting - we use 40 in the Dojang for adults) and you can see that red's last hit was only a 22 and blue's last hit was only a 32. Both hits most likely made a pretty good pop but was not enough to score.

Thanks Andy for the photo and the streaming link.


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## Gorilla (May 3, 2012)

ATC said:


> Now that is a true statement. And all because his kid was not winning.



Brilliant guy....interesting motivation...It gives you an idea of the type of fighter his son may have been probably very technical.. His partners style probably crept in also...


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## Archtkd (May 3, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> Brilliant guy....interesting motivation...It gives you an idea of the type of fighter his son may have been probably very technical.. His partners style probably crept in also...



Who had the ITF backround.  Mr. Song who's in the video? Could he have been looking at his son's game with an ITF view?


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## Archtkd (May 4, 2012)

Archtkd said:


> Who had the ITF backround.  Mr. Song who's in the video? Could he have been looking at his son's game with an ITF view?



ATC, The more I look into this the more puzzled I'm getting about what you heard the Truescore folks saying in your dojang.

  After doing a little research I've found the other two people who helped Jin Song to develop the Truescore System. They are Ed Chi, who was a research scientist in Palo Alto and active Kukki taekwondoin at Stanford University's taekwondo program, and Ed Corbin, a colleague of Song at a company known as Impact Measurement in San Jose, Calif. Check out Chi's bio here: http://www-users.cs.umn.edu/~echi/biography.html.  I haven't found any info on Corbin yet. 

In 2004  Jin Song, Ed Chi and Corbin published this research paper 
( http://www-users.cs.umn.edu/~echi/papers/2004-UIST/2004-UIST-SensorHogu.pdf ) about the the early development of the Truescore system. There's no indication anywhere that the ITF style or karate was ever considered in development of the hogu. The early research, according to the paper, relied soley on WTF style sparring rules and style. 

Kevin McCullough, vice president at Truescore, was one of the sparring participants in the early research, which was done at Stanford. He's in the video you posted and was at the  time of the early research on the USTU national team. The other participants in the early research were: Chris Ariagos, a US Collegiate Champion, and Akiko Rod, 93 National Finweight Champion, 95 Olympic Festival Medalist, and 98 US Collegiate Silver Medalist. As well as James Song (Jin Song's son), 2000 National Junior Olympic Silver Medalist, and 1999 and 2000 California Junior Olympic Gold Medalist.



  I have so far not found anything that suggests Jin Song, the chief engineer,  ever practiced taekwondo, leave alone in the ITF style.


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## ATC (May 4, 2012)

Archtkd said:


> ATC, The more I look into this the more puzzled I'm getting about what you heard the Truescore folks saying in your dojang.
> 
> After doing a little research I've found the other two people who helped Jin Song to develop the Truescore System. They are Ed Chi, who was a research scientist in Palo Alto and active Kukki taekwondoin at Stanford University's taekwondo program, and Ed Corbin, a colleague of Song at a company known as Impact Measurement in San Jose, Calif. Check out Chi's bio here: http://www-users.cs.umn.edu/~echi/biography.html.  I haven't found any info on Corbin yet.
> 
> ...


Just posted what was told to me in conversation with Mr. Song himself. I was never told anything about his son and first heard of his son and the idea to develop the hogu from the video. It was brought up with the rest of the explination when I asked about the issue of the snappy kick vs. the pure power kick and scoring. If you get them to come out to your state event maybe you can inquire some more.


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## andyjeffries (May 4, 2012)

I do think that Daedo/Truescore could do with some design input on their display though.  Compared to modern sports programmes on TV, the graphics used on their display are very 80s...


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## andyjeffries (May 4, 2012)

ATC said:


> Yep. Power set to 38 (that is blasting - we use 40 in the Dojang for adults) and you can see that red's last hit was only a 22 and blue's last hit was only a 32. Both hits most likely made a pretty good pop but was not enough to score.



You can see all the Daedo HitLevels in use at the Euros here - http://www.etutaekwondo.org/docs/DAEDO_PSS_HITLEVEL2012.pdf

38 is as high as they are going.



ATC said:


> Thanks Andy for the photo and the streaming link.



You're welcome


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## ATC (May 4, 2012)

andyjeffries said:


> You can see all the Daedo HitLevels in use at the Euros here - http://www.etutaekwondo.org/docs/DAEDO_PSS_HITLEVEL2012.pdf
> 
> 38 is as high as they are going.


I like how they do the power levels also. On the sensor that they put into the hogu there is a switch that put the sensor in child mode or adult mode. So a 25 child mode power level is not the same as an adult 25 power level. So you may see the levels close for each Child vs. Adult, but they are not equal.


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