# Wing chun footwork



## callMeHawkEye (Feb 26, 2018)

So how exactly does wing chun footwork work?  Is there any footwork really in wing chun?  Most of it seems like just the arms. How do you move and close the gap or make room in wing chun? 

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## wckf92 (Feb 26, 2018)

callMeHawkEye said:


> So how exactly does wing chun footwork work?  Is there any footwork really in wing chun?  Most of it seems like just the arms. How do you move and close the gap or make room in wing chun?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk



We move forward to close gaps. We make room to move forward by striking the bad guy


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## Martial D (Feb 26, 2018)

callMeHawkEye said:


> So how exactly does wing chun footwork work?  Is there any footwork really in wing chun?  Most of it seems like just the arms. How do you move and close the gap or make room in wing chun?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


There are actually many different answers to that.

The way I was taught was a combination of shifting, triangle stepping and pull stepping(where you pull your rear planted mass with your forward foot.

Some, like the cheungers, like to hop in to bridge with the front leg in the check position.

Some say footwork doesn't matter at all as long as you keep a hold of the centerline.

I tend to prefer kickstand footwork these days(always one heel planted and one heel up) but it isn't in any traditional WC syllabus.


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## callMeHawkEye (Feb 26, 2018)

Martial D said:


> There are actually many different answers to that.
> 
> The way I was taught was a combination of shifting, triangle stepping and pull stepping(where you pull your rear planted mass with your forward foot.
> 
> ...


Sounds like Bruce Lee bai zhong stance with the raised rear heel 

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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 26, 2018)

In Chinese wrestling, you can train footwork in the following way:

1. Mark L1, R1, L2, R2 on the ground.
2. Put left foot on L1 and right foot on R1.
3. Move L1 to L2 and move R1 to R2 (advance).
4. Move L2 back to L1 and move R2 back to R1 (retreat).
5. Repeat 3 and 4.

Sometime you combine step 3 or step 4 as 1 step. Instead of moving 2 feet separately, you may just use 1 single "hop". I believe this training method can be applied to all MA systems.


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## Martial D (Feb 26, 2018)

callMeHawkEye said:


> Sounds like Bruce Lee bai zhong stance with the raised rear heel
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


 Sort of, but it's not always the rear heel, and applies also to (transitional) lateral stance and movement.

The tpbk stance is a different animal altogether.


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## geezer (Feb 27, 2018)

callMeHawkEye said:


> ...Is there any footwork really in wing chun?



Any real footwork? Jeez, from my perspective that's a very odd question. In our lineage we train footwork _intensively_. I know that different lineages differ on this, but wow!

What do they teach where you train?


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## callMeHawkEye (Feb 27, 2018)

geezer said:


> Any real footwork? Jeez, from my perspective that's a very odd question. In our lineage we train footwork _intensively_. I know that different lineages differ on this, but wow!
> 
> What do they teach where you train?


I don't mean any offense by it. Geezer. I am currently training under yuan kay shan lineage but am still only beginner. I am not really sure about the foot work in wing chun and that is why I ask the op questions. There definitely is a lot of stance work though - Zhang Zuang

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## geezer (Feb 27, 2018)

callMeHawkEye said:


> I don't mean any offense by it. Geezer. I am currently training under yuan kay shan lineage but am still only beginner. I am not really sure about the foot work in wing chun and that is why I ask the op questions. There definitely is a lot of stance work though - Zhang Zuang
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk



I don't know, I'm betting that YKS WC has pretty strong footwork training. And it's probably pretty different from what I learned in WT. There's gotta be somebody on this forum who can weigh in! I'll sit back and wait.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 27, 2018)

callMeHawkEye said:


> I don't mean any offense by it. Geezer. I am currently training under yuan kay shan lineage but am still only beginner. I am not really sure about the foot work in wing chun and that is why I ask the op questions. There definitely is a lot of stance work though - Zhang Zuang
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


Have you asked your instructor about it?  That seems like the most direct way to get a relevant answer.


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## Vajramusti (Feb 27, 2018)

geezer said:


> Any real footwork? Jeez, from my perspective that's a very odd question. In our lineage we train footwork _intensively_. I know that different lineages differ on this, but wow!
> 
> What do they teach where you train?


--------------------------------------
In Ho Kam Ming and Fong's classes there is lots of footwork.


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## Ojibway Bob (Feb 27, 2018)

Hi there OP. I see you are new just as I am. I have only been doing WC for 3 weeks now and we are starting to do basic shifting. I asked about footwork a week in and was told that for pretty much my first 3 months, I would be mostly in the dreaded stance.

One of the senior members told me they want me to be rooted, learn proper technique to drive power from the ground up so the stance is important. 

I do see other members moving around in a bit of a shuffle, short quick slip steps it looks like. So I say hang tight and you will learn the footwork. We have to crawl before we walk lol.

I do not want to get into the lineage wars because I really do not know how to find out what my WC is. When ever I ask they mention it is direct from Ip Man. They then always point to a picture hanging up on the wall with our Sifu, Bruce Lee, And Ip Man sitting along with a few other people.

 I find the class so weird because it is so informal. When I was young I went to Karate classes and there it was so strict. I remember having the Sensei kick out our feet to see if we were properly standing or rapping our knuckles with bamboo to train our fists in the right position. But my WC is so much more laxed, very social, everyone is treated like a Brother or Sister. It does get serious when it has too. One of the masters, (no one likes to be called Master there lol) was showing me how to properly do Tan da. A week later my forearms are still bruised from forcing his punches out of my center hahah.

Anyways I always look forward to reading new posts and look forward at looking at more.

Take care all.


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## APL76 (Feb 27, 2018)

Hi callMeHawkEye. My sifu was a disciple of Sum Nung and I have trained and taught in Yeun Kay San wing chun for many years and I can assure you that not only is there plenty of footwork, but it is an absolutely integral part of the ability to apply wing chun (by our standards at least).


Having said that though, you must do an enormous amount of stance training to get yourself ready for it; otherwise, it will be slow, unstable, flimsy and ineffectual. So if you are a beginner, and your sifu has you doing almost nothing but stance training, then that sounds about right to me. You can probably expect to be doing almost nothing but jun ma (turning stance) training for a good while too before you get to the actual footwork (stepping and so on) which you will develop as you learn the sup yi sik.


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## VPT (Feb 28, 2018)

I only ever took one class of Wan Kam Leung lineage Wing Chun. I don't think it was any kind of separate beginner class, but nevertheless I was made to do basic stepping patterns already then. I wasn't taught any kind of body shifting or turning stance as far as I can remember.

I wholeheartedly disagree with APL76 in regards to stance training. I think it's important to get yourself moving with footwork, even sparring from the day one. Even if it sucks and is unstable and ineffective, then hey, it's your first class anyway. In a month or two it's already waaay better than day one.


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## Danny T (Feb 28, 2018)

callMeHawkEye said:


> So how exactly does wing chun footwork work?


Shift your center of gravity to one foot or the other step forward, to the side, or backward and shift your center of gravity to that foot or center it on both. It is very similar to walking.



callMeHawkEye said:


> Is there any footwork really in wing chun?  Most of it seems like just the arms. How do you move and close the gap or make room in wing chun?


There is a lot of footwork in the wing chun I have been exposed to. When and how it is trained will vary from instructor to instructor. I have students doing specific stance and footwork practice from day one. I know of others who only do specific static stance practice for a few months. In time you will do a lot of stance and footwork if you stay with the training.


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## APL76 (Feb 28, 2018)

VPT said:


> I only ever took one class of Wan Kam Leung lineage Wing Chun. I don't think it was any kind of separate beginner class, but nevertheless I was made to do basic stepping patterns already then. I wasn't taught any kind of body shifting or turning stance as far as I can remember.
> 
> I wholeheartedly disagree with APL76 in regards to stance training. I think it's important to get yourself moving with footwork, even sparring from the day one. Even if it sucks and is unstable and ineffective, then hey, it's your first class anyway. In a month or two it's already waaay better than day one.




Fair enough, but all I'm saying is that if he is doing Yuen Kay San Wing Chun, assuming he is being taught properly, the way Sum Nung taught it, it would be completely possible and even expectable for him to literally do nothing but Yi Ji Kim Yeung Ma every day and be able to hold it for around two hours before he learned the next thing (which would be single centreline punches). When I learned the traditional way I did nothing but YJKYM for around 4 months. Its just how that style of wing chun is taught (if you do it the way Sum Nung did it).

Most people don't do that kind of training, that's completely understandable; it is grueling and takes some serious amount of time and dedication. I have done it and I can assure you that the difference between that and "moving with footwork, even sparring from the day one." is monumental. The quality, strength, speed and power that one achieves through that kind of training is in another universe compared learning it piecemeal from day one. You can disagree whole heartedly but unless you have done that kind of training, and know YKS wing chun, you are not really in a position to know anything about it. 

What I would say to callMeHawkEye is that you should ask your sifu these questions, and if your sifu is expecting you to do a lot of stance training and not a great deal of anything else I would guess he is training your properly for YKS wing chun. Can I ask you who you are learning from and where you train?


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## callMeHawkEye (Mar 1, 2018)

Thanks guys. I will try to ask my teacher tonight if I can make it to class or on Saturday.  In my school we cover some basic drills like 3 star punch and pak gam tan drill and punching and stance work. We did do some basic shifting. And I notice it is in some ways similar to taiji. (I used to do taiji years ago)  


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## callMeHawkEye (Mar 1, 2018)

APL76 said:


> Fair enough, but all I'm saying is that if he is doing Yuen Kay San Wing Chun, assuming he is being taught properly, the way Sum Nung taught it, it would be completely possible and even expectable for him to literally do nothing but Yi Ji Kim Yeung Ma every day and be able to hold it for around two hours before he learned the next thing (which would be single centreline punches). When I learned the traditional way I did nothing but YJKYM for around 4 months. Its just how that style of wing chun is taught (if you do it the way Sum Nung did it).
> 
> Most people don't do that kind of training, that's completely understandable; it is grueling and takes some serious amount of time and dedication. I have done it and I can assure you that the difference between that and "moving with footwork, even sparring from the day one." is monumental. The quality, strength, speed and power that one achieves through that kind of training is in another universe compared learning it piecemeal from day one. You can disagree whole heartedly but unless you have done that kind of training, and know YKS wing chun, you are not really in a position to know anything about it.
> 
> What I would say to callMeHawkEye is that you should ask your sifu these questions, and if your sifu is expecting you to do a lot of stance training and not a great deal of anything else I would guess he is training your properly for YKS wing chun. Can I ask you who you are learning from and where you train?


I am learning from sifu Anton Miller

Kwok Wan-Ping -> Chun Ming Lee ->
 Alton Miller

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## APL76 (Mar 1, 2018)

callMeHawkEye said:


> I am learning from sifu Anton Miller
> 
> Kwok Wan-Ping -> Chun Ming Lee ->
> Alton Miller
> ...




OK, I know of him and have seen some of his stuff, he seems much better than most. Kwak Wan Pin actually did quite a bit of tai chi, and according to one of my friends who goes and visits him, he is only doing tai chi these days. Could be that he added it to his wing chun.

My advice would be to do heaps of stance training, and then heaps of jun ma. It will make doing sup yi sik much easier, and better quality. If sup yi sik is good you will have good wing chun.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 1, 2018)

callMeHawkEye said:


> So how exactly does wing chun footwork work?


I don't believe WC trains footwork as much as some other CMA styles such as the XingYi, Bagua, or long fist. The long fist 3rd road Pao Quan sometime requires 1/2 basket ball field to train.


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## yak sao (Mar 1, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I don't believe WC trains footwork as much as some other CMA styles such as the XingYi, Bagua, or long fist...



Yeah maybe, but keep in mind that WC is a close-range fighting style. When fighting empty hand, the most distance we have to cover is the length of our opponent's kicking leg.
When you add the double knives to the equation then you are covering maybe 10 feet or so as you defend against the long pole.


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## yak sao (Mar 1, 2018)

Also, the footwork in those forms is not so different from WT footwork.
The Xing yi pull step is very much like ours and the lively footwork in the bagua set is very reminiscent of the footwork found in the knives.
Add to that the horse, bow, and Cat stance found in the long Pole and the various stepping methods found in the tripodal dummy and you'll see we actually have more in common than not.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 1, 2018)

Why does WC have to wait until wooden dummy, double knifes, and long pole to start the footwork training? If a WC student just finishes his 3 solo hand forms, will he learn enough footwork? Should a student learn important stuff during day one?


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## yak sao (Mar 1, 2018)

Some do wait, but in our particular lineage we learn footwork pretty much from day one coupled with the typical stance training.
I think this is a good balanced approach.


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## Danny T (Mar 1, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Why does WC have to wait until wooden dummy, double knifes, and long pole to start the footwork training? If a WC student just finishes his 3 solo hand forms, will he learn enough footwork? Should a student learn important stuff during day one?


If that is happening, in my experience, it is an instructor or a particular group. In my training and what I instruct footwork is drilled from day 1.


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## wckf92 (Mar 2, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Why does WC have to wait until wooden dummy, double knifes, and long pole to start the footwork training? If a WC student just finishes his 3 solo hand forms, will he learn enough footwork? Should a student learn important stuff during day one?



IME, these things (footwork from wm, pole, knives) were began in first day, week, month etc because of their importance.


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## geezer (Mar 2, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Why does WC have to wait until wooden dummy, double knifes, and long pole to start the footwork training? If a WC student just finishes his 3 solo hand forms, will he learn enough footwork? *Should a student learn important stuff during day one?*



Yes.


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## obi_juan_salami (Mar 6, 2018)

You do learn footwork from day one. From the minute you open your stance you are learning footwork. Learning wing chun is a process, a progression. You need a lot of leg strength and correct shape to do foot work. This is acheived through stance training. Then you strengthen the individual components of the foot work in the forms. Only to finally put it all to use and application in the dummy. By this stage the quality or 'end product' should be of a very high quality because you have spent years refining the individual and various components of your footwork before putting it together. If you are someone who thinks that process takes too long.. then i suggest you look into the history and defenition of the term "kung fu".


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 6, 2018)

obi_juan_salami said:


> You do learn footwork from day one. From the minute you open your stance you are learning footwork.


Stance and foot work are different.

- The stance is how you put weight on both legs.
- The foot work is how to move your feet from point (L1, R1) to point (L2, R2).

The following picture shows the "wheeling step" that you move yourself to be outside of your opponent's attacking path. The "wheeling step" has nothing to do with your weight distribution.


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## APL76 (Mar 6, 2018)

This seems to be the fundamental difference in the way Obijaunsalami and I see the stance compared to how you see it. If all you think the stance is is putting weight on your legs, then that is fundamentally different to how we see it as a developmental tool that establishes a foundation for all of the kung fu that a person will ever do.

If all you think a stance is is putting weight on your legs, then sure, footwork (that is to say stepping etc.) may as well come immediately since it seems you put no developmental value in a stance.

For us however the stance develops all the fundamental attributes that you need to do kung fu, and if you either don’t do the necessary stance training, or rush it (which is essentially what you seem to advocate), you cut short the development of those attributes; that is assuming you actually train your stance in a way to develop those attributes in the first place (most people I have seen don’t train it in that way, by the way). This is why Obijaunsalami said you are developing your footwork from the very moment you open your stance. It is also why he said that the better your stance training is the higher quality you will get at the outcome.

So, going back to the initial question that started this thread, (paraphrasing here) is there much footwork in wing chun? And the OP noted how, as a beginner he seems to be doing a lot of stance training and not much “footwork”. And he is doing YKS wing chun (which Obijuansalami and I have done for years).

In the context of YKS wing chun, if you do it the way Sum Nung taught it, you can expect to do NOTHING but stance training intensively for around 4, 5 or 6 months at least. This is because the stance is 1) a developmental tool, and 2) as such lays the foundation for literally everything a person will do in wing chun and so the quality of the stance sets the benchmark for the quality of the wing chun in general.

Yes, in YKS wing chun there is heaps of footwork, it would seem, perhaps more so than many interpretations of YM style; footwork is inseparable from pretty much every aspect of YKS wing chun. So for the OP yes, eventually it is ALL ABOUT the footwork but first comes the stance; so if you are learning YKS wing chun, from Alton Miller, who comes through from Kwok Wan Ping, then you must do adequate stance training or the rest of it will not work. YKS wing chun is fundamentally different from YM style and more difficult (I have learned and teach both so unlike most I actually have a basis for comparison). So I wouldn’t worry about not doing footwork as a beginner and doing stance training. That is the correct way to learn it.

To give you an example. I once was having difficulty with my punches (YM style) so I went and asked my Sifu (private student of Yip Chun and later, disciple of Sum Nung), “sifu, my punch isn’t feeling right, can you see what’s wrong with it?” He told me to show him and after I did he said, “go do more stance training”. At the time I didn’t understand what the hell my legs (yep, at the time I thought of my stance as my legs only) had to do with my punch. Shortly after that he took me as a private student, I learned YKS style from him the traditional way and did nothing but stance training for about 4 months. Some time after that I was teaching HK style in his class for him and showed some students how to punch, having not done any punches for months. To my astonishment my punch came out faster, smoother with more focus and a lot more relaxed than it ever had before; all from nothing but stance training. I hadn’t trained my punch, but I had trained the sh&* out of the foundation on which the punch is based.  

That is the difference with the stance as developing the attributes for kung fu, and the stance as simply putting weight on your legs.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 6, 2018)

Stance training:






Foot work training:


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## APL76 (Mar 6, 2018)

???, I don't see how any of that changes anything I have said? Sure, if all you see the stance as is simply standing around, putting weight on your legs, then a video of some guy simply running along doing some punches may be fine. Simply standing around, and practicing footwork may seem to be completely unrelated; if that's how you see it that's fine by me, I don't care.

If, however, you see the stance as something that develops everything you need to do kung fu then how does what you posted there invalidate that? The way I have described it is how it works in YKS wing chun (and I think its not a forigen concept to many wing chun people and many other martial arts people too). I would hazard a bet that the guy in the photo above would likely agree with my point of view rather than yours.


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## wckf92 (Mar 6, 2018)

APL76 said:


> Sure, if all you see the stance as is simply standing around, putting weight on your legs



Guess I've been training my "stance" since about 1 or 2 yrs old!!! hahahahahaha

*I'd like to point out that the second video IMHO is highly contingent to first mastering "stance". 

"One must learn to stabilize, before one learns to mobilize"....  just sayin.....


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## APL76 (Mar 6, 2018)

I would have to agree on all three points;.if by training your "stance" you do actually mean your """""stance"""" and not Yi Ji Kim Yeung ma


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## jlq (Mar 7, 2018)

APL76,

good description of how classical training is structured.


Unfortunately, nowadays - even in Fatsaan and Gongjaau - this kind of training is very rare, unless the art is taught "inside the family", because it is not commercially viable to have the modern people eating the bitter traditional dish.

No wonder, then, that nowadays in the new generation only fe


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## APL76 (Mar 7, 2018)

Yeah, while I have never been to china I have a friend who goes there regularly. When he’s there he now trains with Sum Nung’s elder son, one from his first marriage. When he is back here in Canberra he trains with us. Anyway, he has been all over Guangzhou and HK and so on, seen a huge amount of Wing Chun there, and said that its rare indeed to find people who emphasize foundation training and so on. It’s a shame.


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## jlq (Mar 7, 2018)

Sum Nungs sons might not be the best go to guys, though for really traditional training. The one you are referring to just opened a sort of promotional office, a very small space, next to the Gongjaau Opera Museum and is heavily into pronoting the style, meaning teaching it to children and for mainstream consumption, which forces any teacher whether he likes it or not to change the training method to appease the masses. Better to go to Pan Chao Sifu, or rather his son as they are not commercial or into spreading the word.


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## jlq (Mar 7, 2018)

But you are right... A shame it is indeed that the traditional ways are dying out.


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## APL76 (Mar 8, 2018)

jlq said:


> Sum Nungs sons might not be the best go to guys, though for really traditional training. The one you are referring to just opened a sort of promotional office, a very small space, next to the Gongjaau Opera Museum and is heavily into pronoting the style, meaning teaching it to children and for mainstream consumption, which forces any teacher whether he likes it or not to change the training method to appease the masses. Better to go to Pan Chao Sifu, or rather his son as they are not commercial or into spreading the word.


I don't need to go to Sum Nung's sons for wing chun, my sifu is one of Sum Nung's disciples.


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## jlq (Mar 8, 2018)

That is not at all what my post meant to imply...



It was just to point out that even (most of) SN's students nowadays have modified their teachings.

And if one wants to learn the traditional way, it would be better to learn from the Pang family than the more commercially oriented mou goons.

I hope this clariefies the issue.


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## APL76 (Mar 8, 2018)

jlq said:


> That is not at all what my post meant to imply...
> 
> 
> 
> ...




yeah, Sorry, it was after I posted it that I realised my comment could be construed as a bit of a smart **** comment. I didn't mean it to be and totally understand your comment.

In terms of my friend learning from one of Sigung's older sons (I can never remember his name),,, My friend went around and had a look at a lot of wing chun, a number of Sigung's disciples (and wing chun not connected to Sum Nung), and he figured that Sigung's son was the one to learn from (and my friend is very, very, very experienced in some Japanese martial arts, so he is definitely no naïve person to be taken in by gimmicks). From what he told me it seems a lot of them operate the commercial school and then may take private students. And what they teach in private is of a different level to the public stuff. And I agree that to teach Guangzhou style wing chun in a commercial class context it would have to be modified in order to make it accessible to most people.

That makes sense and is exactly how my sifu did it when he operated his school. the difference with my sifu though is that in the commercial school he taught the Yip Man style of wing chun. Those of us he chose to teach privately trained at his home, it was entirely separate from the school (though we did train the Guangzhou stuff in he class too). When we learned the Guangzhou style at his house it was in the traditional way.


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## jlq (Mar 8, 2018)

No problem at all, appreciate the clarification, though. 

The name of the elder son is Sum Siu Wai (岑 兆 伟).


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## APL76 (Mar 8, 2018)

jlq said:


> No problem at all, appreciate the clarification, though.
> 
> The name of the elder son is Sum Siu Wai (岑 兆 伟).




I suspect you also learn YKS wing chun?


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## jlq (Mar 8, 2018)

Up until a few years ago, yes. I live in Gongjaau and know quite a few people who practice Gong Fu here.


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## VPT (Mar 11, 2018)

I finally figured out how to say what was bugging me with the YKS approach. Doing so much of standing around is and might always be a waste of time for me. Martial arts is living and moving and not about standing in one place "developing one's kung fu".

If you do four months of stance training, you waste four months not learning how not to get punched in the face. You are not learning how to deal with people actually trying to hurt you. When you finally get to move yourself around, you are still at step one at fighting: one might know how to punch, but he/she would still be a sucker at dealing with punches. To prioritize stance training is to disregard the more important 50 % that makes up martial arts: protecting oneself from people putting effort in physical harm.


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## pdg (Mar 11, 2018)

VPT said:


> If you do four months of stance training, you waste four months not learning how not to get punched in the face. You are not learning how to deal with people actually trying to hurt you



If that's your motivation for learning the (any) art then that might be the case.

But what about the majority of people who aren't in it for that particular reason?




Edit: to qualify my use of "majority" - it's based on the sample of people I've spoken to - a very very small percentage cite defence as their reasoning.


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## VPT (Mar 11, 2018)

pdg said:


> If that's your motivation for learning the (any) art then that might be the case.
> 
> But what about the majority of people who aren't in it for that particular reason?
> 
> ...


I often use "hurting" and "punching in the face" as less-than-creative ways to paraphrase the intention of a live sparring situation. (And specifically one including some sort of protective gear, to elaborate. Barefist sparring is something I have too little experience to consider properly, although there is a very skilled Seven Star Mantis group around where I usually roam who engage in that.)

If I would train for self-defence only, I would drop all my kung fu right away. But since I don't, I keep training it. However, if people are _not _in martial arts for a live sparring context, their training should still be organized in the way that makes it possible for those who desire that. Training martial arts and not actually training "fighting" (hate that word) is like having a band and playing full gigs at an empty garage, or making a three-course meal for yourself and just eating the first course.


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## pdg (Mar 11, 2018)

VPT said:


> I often use "hurting" and "punching in the face" as less-than-creative ways to paraphrase the intention of a live sparring situation. (And specifically one including some sort of protective gear, to elaborate. Barefist sparring is something I have too little experience to consider properly, although there is a very skilled Seven Star Mantis group around where I usually roam who engage in that.)
> 
> If I would train for self-defence only, I would drop all my kung fu right away. But since I don't, I keep training it. However, if people are _not _in martial arts for a live sparring context, their training should still be organized in the way that makes it possible for those who desire that. Training martial arts and not actually training "fighting" (hate that word) is like having a band and playing full gigs at an empty garage, or making a three-course meal for yourself and just eating the first course.



Seems I misunderstood your use of those words then 

But, if that's how some arts are structured I can't personally say they're wrong for the practitioners - but they'd likely be wrong for me (and you, by the sound of things).


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## VPT (Mar 11, 2018)

pdg said:


> Seems I misunderstood your use of those words then
> 
> But, if that's how some arts are structured I can't personally say they're wrong for the practitioners - but they'd likely be wrong for me (and you, by the sound of things).



Maybe more like wrong for this day and age, when both the equipment and the knowledge regarding how to conduct athletic training in general and in martial arts have taken massive leaps forward. This, however, does not change the core substance of those arts - strategy and techniques and relevant knowledge of the human body - that continue even in our day to be "functional technology" (to use Dan Djurdjevic's term).


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## APL76 (Mar 11, 2018)

I think you are not understanding the process that training goes through. Rather than think of it as standing around and not training 50% of important stuff, its better to think of it as a short term sacrifice for higher long term payoff. One learns things much more slowly in the beginning stages but much more quickly later; and the standard is much higher. As for that kind of training not being right for this day and age. Like what one of my students says to that, unless people have evolved to have an extra arm and or leg there's still nothing people could do to hurt you that they haven't been able to do since the emergence of modern humans. Unless you have done that kind of training you wont understand it or know the difference it makes.


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## Eddie Chan (Oct 31, 2018)

callMeHawkEye said:


> So how exactly does wing chun footwork work?  Is there any footwork really in wing chun?  Most of it seems like just the arms. How do you move and close the gap or make room in wing chun?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk



"Yi Chi Kim Yeung Ma" is the Wing Chun footwork which is very important. One'd loses his balance easily as well as the power without this footwork. This footwork is like the skiing gesture. It achieves the stability. Many people think that it is NOT practical with "Yi Chi Kim Yeung Ma" when sparring. Yes or No? The answer is No! They simply don't understand. The usage or the purpose of it is different between the form and sparring. If you don't have good footwork, you will lose balance easily especially when your opponent gives you a push.

You have the answer to "To move and close the gap". It is simply a move. There are basically 2 ways to move. You move towards your opponent or you pull your opponent to get closer. The other way is when your opponent moves to push you. In these moves, the gap is closed. However, you need to ensure this move is done side way not straight forward.

Finally, the footwork helps you to generate more power.
I really want to share with you more but it is limited in words.


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## Eddie Chan (Oct 31, 2018)

geezer said:


> I don't know, I'm betting that YKS WC has pretty strong footwork training. And it's probably pretty different from what I learned in WT. There's gotta be somebody on this forum who can weigh in! I'll sit back and wait.



Yes, YKS footwork is a bit different from Ip Man lineage. It turns on toe according to the "Yi Chi Kim Yeung Ma". There is reason of it! I'll only explain to people face to face then they will understand easily.


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## Eddie Chan (Oct 31, 2018)

callMeHawkEye said:


> So how exactly does wing chun footwork work?  Is there any footwork really in wing chun?  Most of it seems like just the arms. How do you move and close the gap or make room in wing chun?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk



Though I have posted my sharing previously, I would like to add a bit more on footwork that you are talking about. When you are asking about footwork, I think you are probably asking two things 1) footwork (stance and move) and 2) kicking. I shared about footwork. I come from YKS WC lineage. My understanding is that there are 3 kicking techniques. 1). "Tiger Tail" 2) "Poking Heart" 3) "Horizontal Nail". I am sorry if I can't translate it in English correctly.


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## geezer (Nov 1, 2018)

Eddie Chan said:


> ... I'll only explain to people* face to face* then they will understand easily.



Wise choice.


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## Highlander (Apr 14, 2019)

callMeHawkEye said:


> So how exactly does wing chun footwork work?  Is there any footwork really in wing chun?  Most of it seems like just the arms. How do you move and close the gap or make room in wing chun?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk



As far as HOWS it's done differs from lineage to lineage and person to person. And its hard to teach or explain through text.

For the question of IF there is footwork in WT. Of course, but it starts off very simple. Learning to step straight into the opponent from different ranges while staying behind your body and elbows. A lot of the more advanced footwork is held off till the higher level forms. Which makes the system feel... linear... at first. This is done to ensure the student has a solid understanding of how to move while staying balanced behind their structure. We can look at the feet just like we look at the hands. When we first learn to punch we learn one direction to move, straight down the center, then we learn the lifting upper cut. Then we learn the hook. At first these seem like new methods of attack. But as you train and really dig into them you realize its the same punch just thrown at new angles. 
We first must learn to step and move in a linear direct fashion. Only after we get good at that can we hope to start moving in other directions. The footwork is actually very free and flexible once you get deep into it (just like the hands).
I'll leave you with two quotes I believe answer the question simply.
"The feet unlock the hands"
"There are no advanced techniques in WT, just basics applied at higher levels."


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## drop bear (Apr 14, 2019)




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## Highlander (Apr 14, 2019)

Annnnd just saw how old this thread is


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## Danny T (Apr 14, 2019)

drop bear said:


>


Old friend, Dr. Chris Ash...very nice gentleman.
His wing chun, meh. His Pekiti-Tirsia, ooh...much better!


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## paitingman (Apr 23, 2019)

I think footwork training is a crux for many traditional stylists.

IMO, it is much easier to train and attain the skills of footwork, distance, and body angle manipulation than it is to attain the skills of stance, structure, and dominating this gate and that gate, and arm fighting angles. 

Those who start footwork training day one will find that it's not that hard and their skills will progress quickly and they'll quickly learn to fight this way. I have found they progress much faster and their competence develops much sooner.

Taking the long road could have its rewards.
It's two different mentalities.
There are those who hop in the car and start driving day one and try to develop their skills as a driver.
And there are those whose day one was in the garage and they started trying to build a bad@ss car.


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## Martial D (Apr 24, 2019)

paitingman said:


> I think footwork training is a crux for many traditional stylists.
> 
> IMO, it is much easier to train and attain the skills of footwork, distance, and body angle manipulation than it is to attain the skills of stance, structure, and dominating this gate and that gate, and arm fighting angles.
> 
> ...


Both of those options are kinda messed up though, if you want to develop functional skills, I would say.

If you train distance and angles only, you will lack timing and technique.

If you train technique only and forego distance, angles, and timing, you will end up with cool looking, yet harmless technique.

If you train the first, followed by the second, you will have to unlearn the sloppy techniques you were using to replace them with the proper ones, which triples the workload.

If you learn the technique first, you will have to relearn them anyway due to completely different execution.

Both. Same time. Timing, too.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 24, 2019)

This footwork that you

- Move in leading right leg.
- Slide back left leg next to right leg (side cat stance).
- Advance left leg forward.
- Right leg slide and follow (end with 4-6, or 3-7 stance).

is used in the Xing Yi, long fist, preying mantis, ... system.

All power are generated from

- bottom and up.
- back and front.

This is just general CMA guideline. All CMA systems follow this guide line.

Does WC system train this footwork?


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## geezer (Apr 24, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> All CMA systems follow this guide line. Does WC system train this footwork?



Wing Chun is CMA. And you say _all CMA_ follow this guide line.

...and yet the footwork we train in WC looks different. ???


...OK, actually I do train some steps that may serve the same functions. But they still look different.


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## Danny T (Apr 24, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> All CMA systems follow this guide line.


Not really.


Kung Fu Wang said:


> Does WC system train this footwork?


Not really. 
However, WC is a CMA system...a CMA system that doesn't follow the guide line that you say all CMA systems follow.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 24, 2019)

Danny T said:


> However, WC is a CMA system...a CMA system that doesn't follow the guide line that you say all CMA systems follow.


The question is why?

When you step in, you can move your 

1. leading leg first, or
2. back leg first.

In 1, after you have landed your right leading leg, when you move your left back leg, your left leg will pass by your right leg (whether you will be is side cat stance or not is not important). Your left leg then stop in front of your right leg. Because the momentum, your right leg will slide forward a little bit to adjust the distance between your feet.

We all step forward this way to gain the maximum distance. This natural footwork doesn't belong to any CMA system.


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## wckf92 (Apr 24, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The question is why?
> 
> When you step in, you can move your
> 
> ...




The footwork is in the 2nd form and pole and knives. These forms contain examples of what you described above (basically).


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 24, 2019)

Danny T said:


> Not really.
> However, WC is a CMA system...a CMA system that doesn't follow the guide line that you say all CMA systems follow.


What's the guideline here?

- When you step in your leading leg, you may step in a bit too far. So your back leg has to slide forward a little bit to adjust the distance between your feet.
- When your back leg moves pass your leading leg, your back foot may not fully slide on the ground. You may lift your foot above the ground, or just let your toes to touch the ground (side cat stance).

Are there other methods different from this, and also make sense?


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## paitingman (Apr 24, 2019)

Martial D said:


> Both of those options are kinda messed up though, if you want to develop functional skills, I would say.
> 
> If you train distance and angles only, you will lack timing and technique.
> 
> ...


Never said anything about training distance and timing *only*.
Training how to move and starting to develop a feel for distance and timing from day one, or not, is what my post was about.


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## Martial D (Apr 24, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This footwork that you
> 
> - Move in leading right leg.
> - Slide back left leg next to right leg (side cat stance).
> ...



Bringing your feet together like that would be a dangerous thing to do in any system.

Unless you are a super good grappler off your back.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 24, 2019)

Martial D said:


> Bringing your feet together like that would be a dangerous thing to do in any system.


What's the options? If you have to move your left leg in front of your right leg, you have to let both legs to be next to each other.

Unless you just circle around your opponent by moving back foot 1 ft while moving front foot 3 inch.


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## Martial D (Apr 24, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What's the options? If you have to move your left leg in front of your right leg, you have to let both legs to be next to each other.
> 
> Unless you just circle around your opponent by moving back foot 1 ft while moving front foot 3 inch.



If you are in front of me and you bring your feet together I will say thank you as I take you for a ride.

When your feet are together, you have no base.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 24, 2019)

Martial D said:


> If you are in front of me and you bring your feet together I will say thank you as I take you for a ride.
> 
> When your feet are together, you have no base.


When B moves his left leg B2 in front of his right leg B1, at point X, his both legs will meet. How do you prevent this from happening if you are B?

Please notice that B has forward momentum. A doesn't.

When you kick your opponent, you have no base either.


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## Martial D (Apr 25, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When B moves his left leg B2 in front of his right leg B1, at point X, his both legs will meet. How do you prevent this from happening if you are B?
> 
> Please notice that B has forward momentum. A doesn't.
> 
> When you kick your opponent, you have no base either.



There are many ways to move around without touching your heels together. Watch any competitive combat sport, you will not see feet together, or crossed, as you often see in CMA. There is a reason for this.

Here is an example of mobility without sacrificing base.


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## wckf92 (Apr 25, 2019)

Martial D said:


> There are many ways to move around without touching your heels together. Watch any competitive combat sport, you will not see feet together, or crossed, as you often see in CMA. There is a reason for this.
> 
> Here is an example of mobility without sacrificing base.



Good video dude. Thx. 
Something for KFW to note is that WC has a variety of footwork, most of which is the same or similar to the patterns he describes in the video. The exception is the sideways / lateral. WC does move laterally, but in a slightly different way. 
Good discussion Gents!


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 25, 2019)

Martial D said:


> There are many ways to move around without touching your heels together. Watch any competitive combat sport, you will not see feet together, or crossed, as you often see in CMA. There is a reason for this.
> 
> Here is an example of mobility without sacrificing base.


You have suggested method 1 or method 2 instead of method 3.

M1 - Your feet are in a wide angle.
M2 - Your foot move in with a curve.
M3 - Your feet are in a small angle.

IMO, M3 will give you the maximum distance and maximum speed.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 25, 2019)

If you use "jump kick" footwork to move in (instead of kick, you land your kicking foot in front of your opponent), M3 will give you the maximum distance and maximum speed.






When you use your leg to hook your opponent's leg and take him down, you are standing on one leg and you don't have base at that moment. Since your leg hook your opponent's leg off the ground, your opponent also don't have base.

So the term "no base" is a 2 edges sword. Usually when you are in "no bas" mode, you are also in attacking mode.


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## wckf92 (Apr 25, 2019)

The "no base" is mitigated (sometimes) by the fact that you may have contact/hold of your opponent (to use him as part of your base...)


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 25, 2019)

wckf92 said:


> The "no base" is mitigated (sometimes) by the fact that you may have contact/hold of your opponent (to use him as part of your base...)


Agree! Here is a "no base" example.


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## Martial D (Apr 25, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You have suggested method 1 or method 2 instead of method 3.
> 
> M1 - Your feet are in a wide angle.
> M2 - Your foot move in with a curve.
> ...


Perhaps, but why give the other guy the easy takedown?

Sure, maybe you're fast enough to hop in and out and not catch a double leg or single, or get toppled or even get swept with a lowkick, as can easilly happen if you catch two legs together, but then again...

As I said, great if you don't mind being on the ground, but risky elsewise. And honestly, MMA footwork is plenty fast for in and out, because it has to be.


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## drop bear (Apr 25, 2019)

Martial D said:


> There are many ways to move around without touching your heels together. Watch any competitive combat sport, you will not see feet together, or crossed, as you often see in CMA. There is a reason for this.
> 
> Here is an example of mobility without sacrificing base.


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