# Rise of Karate in MMA



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 12, 2016)

Just finished reading this article that suggests a rise of karate in MMA. The author goes back and forth with his own thoughts, but curious if anyone else has noticed this trend, since I've been noticing for a while that the more recent 'popular' mma fighters generally appear to have at least some TMA involved in their martial background.
Outside Fighting and the Rise of Karate in the UFC


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## Steve (Feb 12, 2016)

kempodisciple said:


> Just finished reading this article that suggests a rise of karate in MMA. The author goes back and forth with his own thoughts, but curious if anyone else has noticed this trend, since I've been noticing for a while that the more recent 'popular' mma fighters generally appear to have at least some TMA involved in their martial background.
> Outside Fighting and the Rise of Karate in the UFC


How are you defining "TMA?"  Because, I'd say that most MMA fighters ever have at least some TMA involved in their martial background.  From the beginning.   In fact, I can't think of too many who don't.  A few, but I'd say the guys who don't have at least some TMA in their background are the strong minority.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 12, 2016)

I'm referring primarily to different forms of karate, TKD, Hapkido, TSD, Kenpo, Judo, JJJ, and CMA's in general. 
For the second part, I miswrote..meant people who have a TMA as one of their main arts. 
I may be mistaken about my original statements because until recently I never really paid attention to MMA, but I'd always heard that most MMA fighters don't use TMA's as their primary arts. Only started paying attention recently, and started to notice when a new fighter is gaining in popularity, if they practice a TMA extra attention starts being focused on that.


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## CNida (Feb 12, 2016)

Agreed. Totally depends on what you consider a TMA.

I can't say for sure whether or not karate is on the rise, but with Stephen Thompson's latest dominant victory over Hendricks, then its safe to say that we are being shown how Karate can be used to great effectiveness in MMA, especially against those who haven't trained to defend or counter those sort of attacks.


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## Tez3 (Feb 13, 2016)

MMA is mixed martial arts not 'modern' martial arts, it's made up of traditional martial arts. When it started many years ago now all fighters had a traditional martial art as their core, as it's expanding we now have MMA people who are coming into the sport who don't have a style already. The article is the wrong way around,
Karate was and is the base for many fighters, has been since the inception of MMA. In the beginning you had your base style and you had to train others to be able to compete. Judo/JJJ/grappling/wrestling people learnt stand up and vice versa. It's much better integrated now, joined up training but Karate has always been there as has TKD and other styles.
No one style provides everything in MMA, that's why it's called mixed martial arts, watch more than the UFC and you will see how it works.


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## Steve (Feb 13, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> MMA is mixed martial arts not 'modern' martial arts, it's made up of traditional martial arts. When it started many years ago now all fighters had a traditional martial art as their core, as it's expanding we now have MMA people who are coming into the sport who don't have a style already. The article is the wrong way around,
> Karate was and is the base for many fighters, has been since the inception of MMA. In the beginning you had your base style and you had to train others to be able to compete. Judo/JJJ/grappling/wrestling people learnt stand up and vice versa. It's much better integrated now, joined up training but Karate has always been there as has TKD and other styles.
> No one style provides everything in MMA, that's why it's called mixed martial arts, watch more than the UFC and you will see how it works.


What's she said.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 13, 2016)

My original post was in reference to an article on UFC, and while I said MMA I meant UFC..didn't think that was necessary because it's what the article was referring to, and in the US at least it's the primary competitive MMA. 
As for what you said about the beginning, my understanding of the history (of the UFC) was that it started with a huge focus on the TMA's/a person's base style, then changed where most competitors incorporate a sport striking style and sport grappling style, with maybe a few supplemental arts but not as their primary art, and it is only recently that this appears to be changing.
Once again, I have only started to pay attention to it recently, so i can very easily be wrong.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 13, 2016)

I suspect that MMA people try to find techniques that aren't often used, use them, and if they are effective, others copy them. At the same time, people figure out defenses against those techs.


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## Tony Dismukes (Feb 13, 2016)

kempodisciple said:


> My original post was in reference to an article on UFC, and while I said MMA I meant UFC..didn't think that was necessary because it's what the article was referring to, and in the US at least it's the primary competitive MMA.
> As for what you said about the beginning, my understanding of the history (of the UFC) was that it started with a huge focus on the TMA's/a person's base style, then changed where most competitors incorporate a sport striking style and sport grappling style, with maybe a few supplemental arts but not as their primary art, and it is only recently that this appears to be changing.
> Once again, I have only started to pay attention to it recently, so i can very easily be wrong.


In the very beginning, the UFC (and many of the other early MMA promotions) was focused on "style vs. style" - who would win if you pitted a karateka vs a kung fu stylist, a boxer vs a jiu-jiteiro, a savate fighter vs a sumo wrestler, etc. In the first few years practitioners of a few styles were dominant and most (not all) fighters began cross-training primarily in those arts - BJJ, Wrestling, and Muay Thai to begin with, although Boxing and Sombo and Judo also had significant early influence. As time goes on, fighters have figured out how to effectively add different arts into the mix. When one of those fighters reaches a high level of success and visibility (such as winning a UFC championship) making significant use of one of these arts (such as Karate or TKD), it gets attention and as a result more and more fighters will start to incorporate that art into their training.



kempodisciple said:


> I'm referring primarily to different forms of karate, TKD, Hapkido, TSD, Kenpo, Judo, JJJ, and CMA's in general.



I think there's a definite false dichotomy if you are considering those arts to be more "traditional" than the arts which dominated in the early UFCs. BJJ is older than TKD, Hapkido and TSD. Muay Thai is as traditional as Karate. Wrestling is older than Judo.


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## Tez3 (Feb 13, 2016)

kempodisciple said:


> My original post was in reference to an article on UFC, and while I said MMA I meant UFC..didn't think that was necessary because it's what the article was referring to, and in the US at least it's the primary competitive MMA.
> As for what you said about the beginning, my understanding of the history (of the UFC) was that it started with a huge focus on the TMA's/a person's base style, then changed where most competitors incorporate a sport striking style and sport grappling style, with maybe a few supplemental arts but not as their primary art, and it is only recently that this appears to be changing.
> Once again, I have only started to pay attention to it recently, so i can very easily be wrong.



Do you want to discuss MMA the martial arts sport or do you want to discuss the UFC a profit making company? The two histories are not the same.
 Your statement "_and in the US at least it's the primary competitive MMA_." is incorrect. You mean the UFC is the USA's primary sports competition, UFC is not a style. Fighters who come up from other promotions use whatever works for them, from whatever source they find as Bill has already intimated. Karate has always been there, fighters such as Chuck Liddell have used it, however when matched, fighters and their coaches work hard on tactics, they look at their opponents strengths and weaknesses. They then plan and train using their own strengths, if their opponent is not so good on the ground they will look to go to ground, if they are less good standing they will look to keep the fight standing. This may be why it appears that it is 'changing', in fact it's not, MMA is not static for reasons Bill has already explained.


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## Tony Dismukes (Feb 13, 2016)

kempodisciple said:


> My original post was in reference to an article on UFC, and while I said MMA I meant UFC..didn't think that was necessary because it's what the article was referring to, and in the US at least it's the primary competitive MMA.





Tez3 said:


> Your statement "_and in the US at least it's the primary competitive MMA_." is incorrect. You mean the UFC is the USA's primary sports competition,



I think the more accurate statement is that the UFC is at this point the largest, most prestigious, publically visible, and highest paying MMA promotion. In the past there were various promotions that were positioning themselves to be competitors to the UFC, but over time they went out of business or were bought up by the UFC. At the present there are *far* more MMA promotions (in the US and worldwide) than ever before, but the UFC mostly treats them as feeder organizations for developing talent that can be recruited by the UFC rather than as business competition.


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## Tez3 (Feb 13, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I think the more accurate statement is that the UFC is at this point the largest, most prestigious, publically visible, and highest paying MMA promotion. In the past there were various promotions that were positioning themselves to be competitors to the UFC, but over time they went out of business or were bought up by the UFC. At the present there are *far* more MMA promotions (in the US and worldwide) than ever before, but the UFC mostly treats them as feeder organizations for developing talent that can be recruited by the UFC rather than as business competition.



I think my point is a bit lost here, from what the OP was saying he is equating the UFC with MMA, that it is a style of martial arts. My point is that the UFC is a sports promoting company not a martial arts style.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 13, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> I think my point is a bit lost here, from what the OP was saying he is equating the UFC with MMA, that it is a style of martial arts. My point is that the UFC is a sports promoting company not a martial arts style.


I was trying to state what Tony stated. UFC is not a style, but the fighters who compete in the UFC are the ones that I was referring to. It may not be a style, but there is definitely a culture surrounding it that effects it.


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## drop bear (Feb 13, 2016)

You get you mma fighters from the pool of competitive fighters in that area. So a Brazil mmaer is more likley to be a bjjer. An American more likely to be a wrestler. Australia has top class muay Thai and sub par wrestling. So more likley to be strikers than wrestlers.

More karate guys are becoming mmaers Because more karate guys are mmaers. Once there is a path to follow people will jump on that.

This creates an incredible diversity of talent that falls within the mma concept.


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## drop bear (Feb 13, 2016)

kempodisciple said:


> Just finished reading this article that suggests a rise of karate in MMA. The author goes back and forth with his own thoughts, but curious if anyone else has noticed this trend, since I've been noticing for a while that the more recent 'popular' mma fighters generally appear to have at least some TMA involved in their martial background.
> Outside Fighting and the Rise of Karate in the UFC



Wait. If those tma methods work in the UFC does that mean they won't work in the street?


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## drop bear (Feb 13, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> I think my point is a bit lost here, from what the OP was saying he is equating the UFC with MMA, that it is a style of martial arts. My point is that the UFC is a sports promoting company not a martial arts style.


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## Steve (Feb 13, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> I think my point is a bit lost here, from what the OP was saying he is equating the UFC with MMA, that it is a style of martial arts. My point is that the UFC is a sports promoting company not a martial arts style.


agteed.  And in a similar vein, Mma is a competition rule set and not a martial arts style, although it's closer now than in past decades.


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## drop bear (Feb 13, 2016)

Steve said:


> agteed.  And in a similar vein, Mma is a competition rule set and not a martial arts style, although it's closer now than in past decades.



If you can go into a school and learn mma. It is a martial arts style. If you can go to integrated or Jackson mma and get a belt in mma. It is a martial arts style.

I mean what more do people want?

Same as if I did drop bear fu. It would be a martial arts style. And a damn good one.


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## Steve (Feb 13, 2016)

I guess it depends on the definition.  Maybe it's a martial art and also a competition rule set, depending on the context.

Drop bear fu...  Sounds a little naughty.


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## Tez3 (Feb 14, 2016)

Having a gym still doesn't make it UFC a martial arts style, it means they own gyms as well as promoting fights and having a clothing line. It's still MMA. It's a good commercial move. SBG have a lot of gyms, that isn't a style either though they may have a distinct style of teaching and coaching.
The article is still erroneous though, karate has always been around, it's not particularly on the rise in the UFC, some fighters use it more than others, every now and again karate ( and other styles) is more noticeable and people jump on the bandwagon and write silly articles.
Restricting the discussion of MMA fighters to only those in the UFC is limiting the discussion considerably by the way. Before the fighters get to the UFC they will have a fight record with other promotions so really by the time they get to the UFC their way of fighting is more or less set, they just rack their training up a few notches.


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## drop bear (Feb 14, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Having a gym still doesn't make it UFC a martial arts style, it means they own gyms as well as promoting fights and having a clothing line. It's still MMA. It's a good commercial move. SBG have a lot of gyms, that isn't a style either though they may have a distinct style of teaching and coaching.
> The article is still erroneous though, karate has always been around, it's not particularly on the rise in the UFC, some fighters use it more than others, every now and again karate ( and other styles) is more noticeable and people jump on the bandwagon and write silly articles.
> Restricting the discussion of MMA fighters to only those in the UFC is limiting the discussion considerably by the way. Before the fighters get to the UFC they will have a fight record with other promotions so really by the time they get to the UFC their way of fighting is more or less set, they just rack their training up a few notches.



I am pretty sure if you wanted to reference another promotion nobody will jump down you throat.

ONE FC Reign of Champions: Christian Holley keen to continue his unbeaten record in Dubai


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## Tez3 (Feb 14, 2016)

drop bear said:


> I am pretty sure if you wanted to reference another promotion nobody will jump down you throat.
> 
> ONE FC Reign of Champions: Christian Holley keen to continue his unbeaten record in Dubai



I could but there'd be a huge long list of promotions from all around the world and that's just the ones I know.


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## punisher73 (Feb 15, 2016)

It seems that this discussion rolls around every few months.  Most noticeably every time a "karateka" does well in the UFC.  Saw lots of these articles when Lyoto Machida was on the rise.

Anyways, as Mr. Mattocks pointed out, the fighters are always on the look out for "new things" that haven't been tried in the ring that will give them a slight edge.  Once people see it, then they also will train it and then learn to counter it, etc.  From Ruas first showcasing the Muay Thai roundhouse kick, to Sakuraba first showing "hammerfists" to strike a grounded opponent to Machido do the double kick set up out of Chinto Kata.  MMA has always been evolving and it has ALWAYS evolved with "traditional" arts right there.  Why?  Because MMA is made up of TMA's.  Everything there is found in a traditional martial art.  There is more refinement of some of those arts and their combat sports versions, but the techniques are still there in the parent arts of those sports.

The UFC style of MMA is a specific rule set, and the techniques that you USUALLY see are the ones that do best in that rule set and environment.  For example, look at the difference between the UFC and Pride (when it was still around).  The UFC guys who went over there usually lost due to the rules and environment and when the Pride guys came over to the UFC they usually lost for the same reasons.

"MMA" is a sport, not a style.  There is no clear system to pass on and it varies from person to person to person.  Could a person define THEIR version of MMA and turn it into a style with a set curriculum and progression of skills?  Sure, they could.  But, that would be the exception rather than the norm.


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## Tez3 (Feb 15, 2016)

I think it's the fluidity of MMA that many people like and enjoy, it's been described as physical chess before now and that has it's attractions for many.
When people say they can ( and can't) see various styles in MMA it's because MMA is what it says on the tin ( and I've said this before, sometimes I think I'm a stuck record) you don't do one style for kicks, another for punches and yet another for groundwork, it's all mixed in, flowing from one technique to another. Good MMA fighters are a couple of moves ahead in their head of the move they are actually doing. Karate isn't on the rise anymore than any other style, it's just someone has noticed someone doing techniques in a karate manner, as had been said a couple of times now, it happens every time a fighter is seen as a karateka, Georges Saint Pierre is another fighter who comes to mind along with those already mentioned.
As I said before, we can discuss MMA and we can discuss the UFC, one is a style/sports rules/whatever you like to call it and the other is a sports promotion business.


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## Raymond (Feb 15, 2016)

I don't think there's a rise of Karate in MMA.  MMA in America has gone through several phases.  

First phase was style vs. style.  Then the second phase was people who came into "mma gyms" learning the generic style of MMA IE only know how to do round kicks in a pseudo-thai style, learn wrestling takedowns, doing boxing combinations etc. but overall no one coming from one pure background but are just athletic by nature.  Now the third phase could be shaping up now in that people come in with a base art like Karate or TKD for example (Machida/Thompson/Pettis) and then round out the edges with sprinklings of other arts.


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## Tez3 (Feb 15, 2016)

Raymond said:


> I don't think there's a rise of Karate in MMA.  MMA in America has gone through several phases.
> 
> First phase was style vs. style.  Then the second phase was people who came into "mma gyms" learning the generic style of MMA IE only know how to do round kicks in a pseudo-thai style, learn wrestling takedowns, doing boxing combinations etc. but overall no one coming from one pure background but are just athletic by nature.  Now the third phase could be shaping up now in that people come in with a base art like Karate or TKD for example (Machida/Thompson/Pettis) and then round out the edges with sprinklings of other arts.



In the UK and Europe I think we are all the other way around. We didn't have any MMA gyms to start with so it was TMA people who had a base style already who were going into MMA, they would learn another style to compliment their own ie Judo people would learn a stand up style and vice versa. We didn't have BJJ either to start with so mostly the ground style was Judo with some JJJ, we've had MT here for a long time so that with karate and TKD were the stand up styles of choice. Boxing people didn't get involved much in the beginning as MMA wasn't thought much of.
The early UFC bouts, the style v style ones weren't watched much here, it wasn't on the television and made little impression here. Pride however the Japanese promotion was widely available on video. MMA as such came to the UK mostly because of one man Lee Hasdell who had the first MMA bouts here in 1995. He'd started training in 'mixed' martial arts in Japan in 1992 and was spreading the word. It wasn't until the inclusion of Ian Freeman a British fighter in the UFC in 2000 that the UK started picking up ( albeit slowly and mostly in the North East of England where Ian is from) about the UFC, Ian is boxing and Goshin jiu-jitsu (Japanese), he'd mostly fought in Vale Tudo and Sambo comps in Russia before that. 

We've always had people with a base style who have invested in training in other styles in order to compete successfully, it's only now that we've had people coming into MMA specific gyms and learning joined up MMA, without having a base style. Way back when it all started we did predict this would happen, that we'd see youngsters bypassing the traditional styles for MMA itself, though interestingly the best gyms do train stand up, groundwork and fitness in separate classes alongside a general 'sparring' session.


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## Raymond (Feb 15, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> In the UK and Europe I think we are all the other way around. We didn't have any MMA gyms to start with so it was TMA people who had a base style already who were going into MMA, they would learn another style to compliment their own ie Judo people would learn a stand up style and vice versa. We didn't have BJJ either to start with so mostly the ground style was Judo with some JJJ, we've had MT here for a long time so that with karate and TKD were the stand up styles of choice. Boxing people didn't get involved much in the beginning as MMA wasn't thought much of.
> The early UFC bouts, the style v style ones weren't watched much here, it wasn't on the television and made little impression here. Pride however the Japanese promotion was widely available on video. MMA as such came to the UK mostly because of one man Lee Hasdell who had the first MMA bouts here in 1995. He'd started training in 'mixed' martial arts in Japan in 1992 and was spreading the word. It wasn't until the inclusion of Ian Freeman a British fighter in the UFC in 2000 that the UK started picking up ( albeit slowly and mostly in the North East of England where Ian is from) about the UFC, Ian is boxing and Goshin jiu-jitsu (Japanese), he'd mostly fought in Vale Tudo and Sambo comps in Russia before that.
> 
> We've always had people with a base style who have invested in training in other styles in order to compete successfully, it's only now that we've had people coming into MMA specific gyms and learning joined up MMA, without having a base style. Way back when it all started we did predict this would happen, that we'd see youngsters bypassing the traditional styles for MMA itself, though interestingly the best gyms do train stand up, groundwork and fitness in separate classes alongside a general 'sparring' session.



Yeah for my "phase two" comment I was thinking of the "MMA Craze explosion" we experienced here in the States around 2003-2005.  Where MMA became popular over night and everyone wanted to do something that looked like it.  So you had athletes from other sports coming in with no base.  Like say a Matt Mitrione type character who never did a combat sport or martial art before.


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## Tez3 (Feb 15, 2016)

Raymond said:


> Yeah for my "phase two" comment I was thinking of the "MMA Craze explosion" we experienced here in the States around 2003-2005.  Where MMA became popular over night and everyone wanted to do something that looked like it.  So you had athletes from other sports coming in with no base.  Like say a Matt Mitrione type character who never did a combat sport or martial art before.



I think we are still waiting for that phrase. MMA is still very much a minority sport here, in fact martial arts are quite a minority thing too. We don't really have big chains of schools or the idea of after school clubs etc. It's not very commercial here. MMA here has no governing body either so while most promotions tend to use the UFC model of rules you have negotiations going on between coaches for changes in rules for their fighters. We have fairly small promotions here so we tend to all know each other lol. We've had the UFC here but the ticket prices are hugely expensive ( about £150 for a decent seat for nxt UFC in London plus we'd have to pay for travel and accomodation) whereas local shows aren't and will feature local fighters, always good for ticket sales. There'll be plenty of fans going to watch the UFC in London but that doesn't translate into people going to train MMA. It's very much a spectator sport still here.


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## drop bear (Feb 16, 2016)

Ufc 193 had record numbers.

No Cookies | Herald Sun


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## Tez3 (Feb 16, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Ufc 193 had record numbers.
> 
> No Cookies | Herald Sun



That's random.


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## Dinkydoo (Feb 16, 2016)

That has to be one of the worst pieces of writing masquerading as journalism I've ever read. I thought our tabloids in the UK were bad! (They are)

I stopped reading about half way and still had absolutely no idea what the purpose of the article was, some 'highlights': 

UFC 193 nearly had a record breaking attendance for the Etihad stadium....but it didn't, a Jehova's Witness convention had around 20,000 more people in attendance. 

Some of the spectators looked quite rough and had tattoos, but there were no arrests.

A pro boxer righty states that the brutal combat sport of mma should not be banned, but admits that it is sometimes too violent. 

This is a parody, right?


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## drop bear (Feb 16, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Ufc 193 had record numbers.
> 
> No Cookies | Herald Sun



Not really. We were discussing mma as a minority sport.


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## kuniggety (Feb 16, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Not really. We were discussing mma as a minority sport.



I think Tez3 was referring to England. Yes, it's quite popular here in the US now.


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## drop bear (Feb 16, 2016)

kuniggety said:


> I think Tez3 was referring to England. Yes, it's quite popular here in the US now.



That one was Australia.


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## Tez3 (Feb 17, 2016)

drop bear said:


> That one was Australia.



Yes, we know and I was referring to the UK. I wouldn't presume to speak for another country.


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## drop bear (Feb 17, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Yes, we know and I was referring to the UK. I wouldn't presume to speak for another country.



Which is why I put it in its own box rather than quoting anybody.

It was a stand alone comment.


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## Tez3 (Feb 17, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Which is why I put it in its own box rather than quoting anybody.
> 
> It was a stand alone comment.



Still random and 'we' weren't discussing minority sports, I mentioned it in my post as a comment about MMA in the UK. No one else was mentioning it.


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## Buka (Feb 17, 2016)

That many Jehova's Witnesses in one place is a whole lot scarier than anything I've seen in Martial Arts.

As for Karate's rise in MMA, I think there's a rise in all arts in MMA.


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## drop bear (Feb 17, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Still random and 'we' weren't discussing minority sports, I mentioned it in my post as a comment about MMA in the UK. No one else was mentioning it.



So we can only discuss mma in England?

When did that happen?


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## Tez3 (Feb 17, 2016)

drop bear said:


> So we can only discuss mma in England?
> 
> When did that happen?



Stop twisting my words. If you are trying to provoke arguments go instead to the Bullshido site.


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## drop bear (Feb 17, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Stop twisting my words. If you are trying to provoke arguments go instead to the Bullshido site.



So talking about something other than England is provoking an argument?


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## Tez3 (Feb 17, 2016)

drop bear said:


> So talking about something other than England is provoking an argument?



Oh please, stop this, you are embarrassing yourself. It's painful to read.


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