# The new Creative Poomsae Division at 2011 World Championship



## taekwondodo (Nov 7, 2010)

There will be a new Creative Poomsae division at beginning at 2011 World Poomsae Championship.

I do not know how detail the break down will be, but it will not be the same division like what we have for the traditional Sport Poomsae.

I also learned that you can use music with your routine.

Example:




rules: http://www.taekwondo-spirit.com/general/poomsae_rules.pdf


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## terryl965 (Nov 7, 2010)

Might as well just go to the ISKA and do your creatve poomsae and enjoy Disney World while you are there. TKD needs to stay pure and I know people enjoy this music and watching all these flips and summersalts and stuff but I like tradition. I do not even like the sport aspect of poomsae.


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## ralphmcpherson (Nov 7, 2010)

Doing forms to music? Now Ive heard it all, my GM would have a heart attack if he heard about this. Although palgwe 8 would go well done with the bee gees 'staying alive', but seriously though, this has to be a joke.


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## Steven Craig (Nov 8, 2010)

music? really?
Are there clubs that do form to music or is it only for comp? It does sound a little odd. What about for self defence routines? Now that would be different...it would be hard for it not to end up comical.


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## Steven Craig (Nov 8, 2010)

I like the disney call.


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## ralphmcpherson (Nov 8, 2010)

Steven Craig said:


> music? really?
> Are there clubs that do form to music or is it only for comp? It does sound a little odd. What about for self defence routines? Now that would be different...it would be hard for it not to end up comical.


I think I'll do my next self defence routine at grading to the "benny hill" theme. Actually for even pondering that I could probably be kicked out of my club.


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## Tez3 (Nov 8, 2010)

I watched katas done to music a while back at a big martial arts expo here. It was athletic, clever and looked very good but was it martial arts? I'd say no, I've seen similiar demos from the gymnastic cheerleading squads and there's not a lot to tell the difference there other than the clothing!

Of course we could have another thread ...what kata/form/pattern etc would you do to what music? Heavy metal? classical? oriental? It could be the syncronised swimming event of martial arts, with those lovely inane smiles they have!


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## StudentCarl (Nov 8, 2010)

If you can still hear the music in your head while using taekwondo to defend yourself on the street, and be effective, you have have my respect. That's a special kind of no-mind.

Sometimes we play loud music when we're sparring to simulate the distractions of tournaments, but my job is to ignore the music and pound my opponent...not groove to the beat.


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## troubleenuf (Nov 8, 2010)

Stay pure?  Have you watched the international poomsae competition?  They are a bunch of robots with what we used to call bad stances that are now "traditional" stances.  



terryl965 said:


> Might as well just go to the ISKA and do your creatve poomsae and enjoy Disney World while you are there. TKD needs to stay pure and I know people enjoy this music and watching all these flips and summersalts and stuff but I like tradition. I do not even like the sport aspect of poomsae.


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## terryl965 (Nov 8, 2010)

troubleenuf said:


> Stay pure? Have you watched the international poomsae competition? They are a bunch of robots with what we used to call bad stances that are now "traditional" stances.


 
I do not consider that staying pure, what I mean is the way my teacher and his teacher tought it years ago, with power, correct stances not this I am competing with Dancing with the Star syndrome.


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## troubleenuf (Nov 8, 2010)

I agree with that... however there are some instances were people get so stuck on the "traditional" way to do things that they forget the evolution of the art is important as well.  



terryl965 said:


> I do not consider that staying pure, what I mean is the way my teacher and his teacher tought it years ago, with power, correct stances not this I am competing with Dancing with the Star syndrome.


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## terryl965 (Nov 8, 2010)

troubleenuf said:


> I agree with that... however there are some instances were people get so stuck on the "traditional" way to do things that they forget the evolution of the art is important as well.


 

Evolution is great and I believe in that but creative poomsae go to Disney World and compete in the iSKA, also all that music where is that a place for any poomsae?


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## dancingalone (Nov 8, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> Evolution is great and I believe in that but creative poomsae go to Disney World and compete in the iSKA, also all that music where is that a place for any poomsae?






[yt]hDb09Qdi22A[/yt]


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## ralphmcpherson (Nov 8, 2010)

troubleenuf said:


> I agree with that... however there are some instances were people get so stuck on the "traditional" way to do things that they forget the evolution of the art is important as well.


I would have agreed with you some time ago. I used to believe that evolution was important to the art. Now though, I look at what tkd has become and then look back at what it used to be and for the life of me I cant find a positive thing to say about the evolution of tkd. I hear about doing forms to music, sparring with hands down, clubs that train little to no hand techs, the emphasis placed on high flashy kicks etc and I can only shake my head.


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## troubleenuf (Nov 8, 2010)

Ok.... Aerobic TKD is nothing but silly (for lack of a couple other words I would like to use).  But patterns to music if done correctly can be something to see.  The Gallegers (sp?) from Colorado used to do a choreographed free form that was out of this world (Brian is now on the USTU National Team).  If you seen it you would appreciate how putting it all together can be a fantastic addition to the art.  That said I must also say that 90% of what they did 90% of us will ever be able to do (360 roundhouse landing in the  full splits dosnt even temp me to try it at all!)
  Lets face it though if we were to train only on things that had "real" street value we would be doing no kicks above the waist and throwing out many of the kicks we "traditionally" did and still do.  Flashy kicks are nothing new it just seems they are taking everything to new levels.  When I first started 360 kicks  were it... now 540s and better are being done.  Practical?  No but they sure are fun to watch being done, hell if I was 20 again I would be trying them.  Dosnt make them bad but 99% of the people in a gym will never do them or be able to do them.  




ralphmcpherson said:


> I would have agreed with you some time ago. I used to believe that evolution was important to the art. Now though, I look at what tkd has become and then look back at what it used to be and for the life of me I cant find a positive thing to say about the evolution of tkd. I hear about doing forms to music, sparring with hands down, clubs that train little to no hand techs, the emphasis placed on high flashy kicks etc and I can only shake my head.


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## ralphmcpherson (Nov 9, 2010)

troubleenuf said:


> Ok.... Aerobic TKD is nothing but silly (for lack of a couple other words I would like to use).  But patterns to music if done correctly can be something to see.  The Gallegers (sp?) from Colorado used to do a choreographed free form that was out of this world (Brian is now on the USTU National Team).  If you seen it you would appreciate how putting it all together can be a fantastic addition to the art.  That said I must also say that 90% of what they did 90% of us will ever be able to do (360 roundhouse landing in the  full splits dosnt even temp me to try it at all!)
> Lets face it though if we were to train only on things that had "real" street value we would be doing no kicks above the waist and throwing out many of the kicks we "traditionally" did and still do.  Flashy kicks are nothing new it just seems they are taking everything to new levels.  When I first started 360 kicks  were it... now 540s and better are being done.  Practical?  No but they sure are fun to watch being done, hell if I was 20 again I would be trying them.  Dosnt make them bad but 99% of the people in a gym will never do them or be able to do them.


If everything we did was street effective I dont really believe all kicks above the waist would have to go. Many a fight has ended with a sidekick to the ribs and Ive seen head kicks land in the ufc and if a full time pro fighter in the prime of his life can get kicked in the head then some drunk on the street is no chance. Head kicks are not effective UNLESS the guy throwing the head kick is good. Head kicks get a bad name largely because guys with 6 months training under their belt go out and get in a fight and try to roundhouse the other guy in the head. Sorry to deviate from topic but I do believe that 90% of what is taught in tkd is street effective if taught properly and doing forms to music and landing 360 kicks in the splits is not teaching street effective tkd, and whilst it may look great, in my opinion it is not martial arts.


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## Tez3 (Nov 9, 2010)

ralphmcpherson said:


> If everything we did was street effective I dont really believe all kicks above the waist would have to go. Many a fight has ended with a sidekick to the ribs and *Ive seen head kicks land in the ufc *and if a full time pro fighter in the prime of his life can get kicked in the head then some drunk on the street is no chance. Head kicks are not effective UNLESS the guy throwing the head kick is good. Head kicks get a bad name largely because guys with 6 months training under their belt go out and get in a fight and try to roundhouse the other guy in the head. Sorry to deviate from topic but I do believe that 90% of what is taught in tkd is street effective if taught properly and doing forms to music and landing 360 kicks in the splits is not teaching street effective tkd, and whilst it may look great, in my opinion it is not martial arts.


 

Mark Weir in UFC38 used a kick to help KO Eugene Jackson in 0.10 1st round. Mark was TKD world champion in 1988 and 1991.

thought you'd like this demo of how it was done, shows how useful kicks are.

http://www.mmauniverse.com/techniques/SS10


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## ETinCYQX (Nov 9, 2010)

This cannot be true. I can hear my Grandmaster beating his head on a wall all the way from Halifax.

This flashy sport BS is not good for us.


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## troubleenuf (Nov 10, 2010)

A kick to the head in a street situation has many problems that would you would not have in a ring.  #1 would be that you may or may not be fighting a single opponent.  Kicking to the head is a risk.  In a ring you can allow yourself a calculated risk since if you loose you are not going to loose your life.  In the street it is another matter all together.  



ralphmcpherson said:


> If everything we did was street effective I dont really believe all kicks above the waist would have to go. Many a fight has ended with a sidekick to the ribs and Ive seen head kicks land in the ufc and if a full time pro fighter in the prime of his life can get kicked in the head then some drunk on the street is no chance. Head kicks are not effective UNLESS the guy throwing the head kick is good. Head kicks get a bad name largely because guys with 6 months training under their belt go out and get in a fight and try to roundhouse the other guy in the head. Sorry to deviate from topic but I do believe that 90% of what is taught in tkd is street effective if taught properly and doing forms to music and landing 360 kicks in the splits is not teaching street effective tkd, and whilst it may look great, in my opinion it is not martial arts.


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## ETinCYQX (Nov 10, 2010)

I'd certainly call a kick to the head a reasonable risk. 

If any of us connect with roundhouse to the head that's even half as good as our standard in sparring, Joe Everyman is not getting back up. The same probably goes for a kick to the ribs, actually.


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## troubleenuf (Nov 10, 2010)

And thats why you would loose.... you dont KNOW that you are fighting "Joe Everyman" do you?  You might be fighting someone with a ton of street experience and even if you were not he might have 2 friends with him.   30 years ago you were pretty safe in betting that the person you were facing had never seen a kick to the head.  Now... there are a ton of people with experience in TKD, MMA and other styles.  
  Just a note.  Even in tournaments what is the percentage of kicks that are directed at the head actually hitting?  Pretty dang low and now you want to do that on the street?  Have you ever actually been in a situation were you had to defend yourself?  




ETinCYQX said:


> I'd certainly call a kick to the head a reasonable risk.
> 
> If any of us connect with roundhouse to the head that's even half as good as our standard in sparring, Joe Everyman is not getting back up. The same probably goes for a kick to the ribs, actually.


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## ralphmcpherson (Nov 11, 2010)

ETinCYQX said:


> I'd certainly call a kick to the head a reasonable risk.
> 
> If any of us connect with roundhouse to the head that's even half as good as our standard in sparring, Joe Everyman is not getting back up. The same probably goes for a kick to the ribs, actually.


I agree. I sparred once mucking around with a non martial arts mate. He can fight a bit and has been in a hell of a lot more fights than I have. The one thing that surprised me was the ease with which I could kick his head. We sometimes take for granted the fact that we spar against head kickers all the time so we expect a head kick and know how to defend against one. Basically I could have easily knocked him down with a head kick without much trouble at all which says a lot considering there are many better high kickers than me getting around.


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## ETinCYQX (Nov 14, 2010)

troubleenuf said:


> And thats why you would loose.... you dont KNOW that you are fighting "Joe Everyman" do you? You might be fighting someone with a ton of street experience and even if you were not he might have 2 friends with him. 30 years ago you were pretty safe in betting that the person you were facing had never seen a kick to the head. Now... there are a ton of people with experience in TKD, MMA and other styles.
> Just a note. Even in tournaments what is the percentage of kicks that are directed at the head actually hitting? Pretty dang low and now you want to do that on the street? Have you ever actually been in a situation were you had to defend yourself?


 
No, thankfully, I have not, at least not to that extent. I still don't care how much "street experience" he's got; if one of us kicks him in the head, or the ribs, or the leg, whatever, he's still not getting back up. The head is the easiest one-hit target for someone with training and it's even more useful with multiple opponents IMO. I've heard this before and argued it many many times. If your average street punk even with a lot of street fighting experience tries to block a TKD practicioner kicking him, he's just going to break his arm too. And, you can't catch any good TaeKwonDo high belt/black belt's foot. Don't even try that.

Also, I obviously don't know about you, but I don't usually miss headshots. I might miss one every five matches.

And like Ralph said; I've sparred with a lot of friends who fight a lot without MA experience, as well as a bunch with karate, TKD, MMA, etc. experience. No sweat to put a headshot on any of them.


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## mango.man (Nov 14, 2010)

ETinCYQX said:


> Also, I obviously don't know about you, but I don't usually miss headshots. I might miss one every five matches.



And how many would you say you attempt in every 5 matches that you only miss 1?


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## ETinCYQX (Nov 14, 2010)

I don't pull it out as a "stand by" technique like some do, but I use it reasonably often. Generally when I'm fairly sure I can land it. Maybe 2-3 times a match on average.


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## ralphmcpherson (Nov 14, 2010)

ETinCYQX said:


> No, thankfully, I have not, at least not to that extent. I still don't care how much "street experience" he's got; if one of us kicks him in the head, or the ribs, or the leg, whatever, he's still not getting back up. The head is the easiest one-hit target for someone with training and it's even more useful with multiple opponents IMO. I've heard this before and argued it many many times. If your average street punk even with a lot of street fighting experience tries to block a TKD practicioner kicking him, he's just going to break his arm too. And, you can't catch any good TaeKwonDo high belt/black belt's foot. Don't even try that.
> 
> Also, I obviously don't know about you, but I don't usually miss headshots. I might miss one every five matches.
> 
> And like Ralph said; I've sparred with a lot of friends who fight a lot without MA experience, as well as a bunch with karate, TKD, MMA, etc. experience. No sweat to put a headshot on any of them.


As Ive said many times, there is a huge difference between joe average up the street or an average martial artist and a black belt's head kick. Too many people have seen fights where some guy with 6 months training under his belt starts throwing head kicks and gets pummelled, or some 'youtube hero' making the same mistake, but you get a 'real' tkd black belt kicking at your head and you'll be sorry. Not only do they know exactly when and when not to head kick but they also deliver it with maximum power in about half a second, blink and you've been kicked.


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## terryl965 (Nov 14, 2010)

ETinCYQX said:


> I don't pull it out as a "stand by" technique like some do, but I use it reasonably often. Generally when I'm fairly sure I can land it. Maybe 2-3 times a match on average.


 
Wow what age group are you because if you are 18-32 than youb are not trying that many attempt at any National level tournament. or maybe you do not do Olympic style or you do not compete at the elite level because if you tried that many someone would just clock you


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## ETinCYQX (Nov 15, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> Wow what age group are you because if you are 18-32 than youb are not trying that many attempt at any National level tournament. or maybe you do not do Olympic style or you do not compete at the elite level because if you tried that many someone would just clock you.[\QUOTE]
> 
> Not sure what you mean by "Olympic" style but my dojang certainly leans more toward traditional. I haven't made it to a competition since my 18th birthday last June, but that's a fair approximation for in-class sparring for me, generally with my instructor.


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## terryl965 (Nov 15, 2010)

ETinCYQX said:


> terryl965 said:
> 
> 
> > Wow what age group are you because if you are 18-32 than youb are not trying that many attempt at any National level tournament. or maybe you do not do Olympic style or you do not compete at the elite level because if you tried that many someone would just clock you.[\QUOTE]
> ...


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## miguksaram (Nov 15, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> Might as well just go to the ISKA and do your creatve poomsae and enjoy Disney World while you are there. TKD needs to stay pure and I know people enjoy this music and watching all these flips and summersalts and stuff but I like tradition. I do not even like the sport aspect of poomsae.


Pure?  What is pure?  Even Funakoshi in his book says that martial arts is meant to evovle and change from one instructor to the next.  This is not to say that musical forms is evolution of TKD.  I'm just saying that keeping something "pure" is keeping something stagnat.

Creative poomsae is something for fun.  Something that a lot of kids, and yes some adults, enjoy doing because it allows them to create something that is their own.  A good creative form will have a foundation based on strong "pure" techniques.  So what is the problem?


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## miguksaram (Nov 15, 2010)

ETinCYQX said:


> This cannot be true. I can hear my Grandmaster beating his head on a wall all the way from Halifax.
> 
> This flashy sport BS is not good for us.


 
Why?  It tends to attract new people to the martial arts, who may not have otherwise joined.  What people fail to see that this is for entertainment.  A good instructor would use this as an advantage to bring in people interested in the flash and the show them the picture of martial arts not just the flash.


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## Disco (Nov 15, 2010)

Shame on you all.............You have forgotten the newest tenant of TKD (Korean wise that is) and that is 'Greed". This falls directly under their new system called "Your-Dough-Mine".
They saw a new way to include more folks into tournament action and stuff their pockets with more money. I feel sorry for anyone who actually thinks/believes that this was done to enrich the overall view of TKD.


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## terryl965 (Nov 15, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> Pure? What is pure? Even Funakoshi in his book says that martial arts is meant to evovle and change from one instructor to the next. This is not to say that musical forms is evolution of TKD. I'm just saying that keeping something "pure" is keeping something stagnat.
> 
> Creative poomsae is something for fun. Something that a lot of kids, and yes some adults, enjoy doing because it allows them to create something that is their own. A good creative form will have a foundation based on strong "pure" techniques. So what is the problem?


 
Evolution is one thing creative with the music screaming at a high pitch is something else. When I talk pure it is in the sense of reality. no backflips. no cartwheels, no kicking to the cieling, left all the gymnastic in gymnastic. if it was solely dome with viable TKD or MA principle thanI am ok with that. Sorry if you do not agrree and love all the flash and jumping and gymnastic types of movement. I believe they should be left in the movies where they belong.


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## miguksaram (Nov 15, 2010)

Disco said:


> Shame on you all.............You have forgotten the newest tenant of TKD (Korean wise that is) and that is 'Greed". This falls directly under their new system called "Your-Dough-Mine".
> They saw a new way to include more folks into tournament action and stuff their pockets with more money. I feel sorry for anyone who actually thinks/believes that this was done to enrich the overall view of TKD.


I see...so only Koreans in Taekwondo wish to line their pockets based off of these trends.  I didn't see any emoticon so I can only assume that you are either a) ignorant or b)I'm just not quick in catching the sarcasm from your post.

Why not expand and get a different demographic of people interested in coming to a TKD tournament?


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## miguksaram (Nov 15, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> Evolution is one thing creative with the music screaming at a high pitch is something else. When I talk pure it is in the sense of reality. no backflips. no cartwheels, no kicking to the cieling, left all the gymnastic in gymnastic. if it was solely dome with viable TKD or MA principle thanI am ok with that. Sorry if you do not agrree and love all the flash and jumping and gymnastic types of movement. I believe they should be left in the movies where they belong.


By your definition of pure we should not have tournaments at all since they do not display reality.  

Besides, where do you think those kids are getting discovered that you see in the movies?


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## Disco (Nov 15, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> I see...so only Koreans in Taekwondo wish to line their pockets based off of these trends.  I didn't see any emoticon so I can only assume that you are either a) ignorant or b)I'm just not quick in catching the sarcasm from your post.
> 
> Why not expand and get a different demographic of people interested in coming to a TKD tournament?



First, who is offering this new venue and where is it being offered, Well lets just see......Why it's at the 2011 World Championships and prey tell, who is running the show? Now lets all guess........why it's the guys that run TKD from.......what for it!............................Korea!!

Expand and different "demographic" people...............What a quaint way of offering a slick retort to what is actually happening. I understand why and where your coming from on my statement, we've locked horns before, but your rebuttal is bias based and we both know why. We'll just leave it at that...........


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## ETinCYQX (Nov 15, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> Why?  It tends to attract new people to the martial arts, who may not have otherwise joined.  What people fail to see that this is for entertainment.  A good instructor would use this as an advantage to bring in people interested in the flash and the show them the picture of martial arts not just the flash.



I don't know that we need to be actively recruiting. Those who will be the students we want will come without the showy stuff IMO. The flash is not TaeKwonDo or martial arts, it's something else that I don't think helps us.


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## miguksaram (Nov 15, 2010)

Disco said:


> First, who is offering this new venue and where is it being offered, Well lets just see......Why it's at the 2011 World Championships and prey tell, who is running the show? Now lets all guess........why it's the guys that run TKD from.......what for it!............................Korea!!
> 
> Expand and different "demographic" people...............What a quaint way of offering a slick retort to what is actually happening. I understand why and where your coming from on my statement, we've locked horns before, but your rebuttal is bias based and we both know why. We'll just leave it at that...........


 
Actually there have been local TKD tournaments ran by non-Koreans that have offered this for a while.  I am not sure what the scene is like in Korea, but what I have noticed at the past couple of MAIA shows, there have been an influx on Korean instructors from Korea coming to learn about this type of stuff.  So I can only guess that it is being done at their local level as well.  The venue is not new...just new to this tournament. So they add a new division and now they are just money grabbing greedy bastards? 

I guess they were greedy many years ago when they first started to do Poomsae only tournaments as well?  The bottomline is they are seeing a trend happening that they want to include into their event.  

BTW...thanks for clearing up my confusion...now I know you are just ignorant.


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## miguksaram (Nov 15, 2010)

ETinCYQX said:


> I don't know that we need to be actively recruiting. Those who will be the students we want will come without the showy stuff IMO. The flash is not TaeKwonDo or martial arts, it's something else that I don't think helps us.


 
Do you own a school?  If you do then you are always actively recruiting...that is if you want to keep your doors open.  Not sure about your area but there are tons of TKD schools around our area.  One not too much different than the other.  So why should I join School A as opposed to School B?  Programs available is the key. 

Perhaps you can exlpain to me why it hurts us without using the same old lame excuse of "it's not realistic or street effective".


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## Disco (Nov 15, 2010)

BTW...thanks for clearing up my confusion...now I know you are just ignorant.

Lets see..........I cleared up YOUR CONFUSION and I'm the ignorant one?....:lfao:

Oh, by the way, here's your emoticon.............:moon:


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## miguksaram (Nov 15, 2010)

Disco said:


> BTW...thanks for clearing up my confusion...now I know you are just ignorant.
> 
> Lets see..........I cleared up YOUR CONFUSION and I'm the ignorant one?....:lfao:
> 
> Oh, by the way, here's your emoticon.............:moon:


Well definetly one that fits your personality of being an ***.


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## ETinCYQX (Nov 15, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> Do you own a school?  If you do then you are always actively recruiting...that is if you want to keep your doors open.  Not sure about your area but there are tons of TKD schools around our area.  One not too much different than the other.  So why should I join School A as opposed to School B?  Programs available is the key.
> 
> Perhaps you can exlpain to me why it hurts us without using the same old lame excuse of "it's not realistic or street effective".



I'm not one to ever say TKD has to be realistic or street effective. If I was looking for effective, I'd carry a knife or a weapon. This is just not TKD. I don't know what it is or what it's supposed to be aside from a grade school gymnastics class, but it's not TKD.

I could also be somewhat jaded in the days of 8 year old black belts and McDojo's, too, but I hate to see TKD at this level.


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## miguksaram (Nov 15, 2010)

ETinCYQX said:


> I'm not one to ever say TKD has to be realistic or street effective. If I was looking for effective, I'd carry a knife or a weapon. This is just not TKD. I don't know what it is or what it's supposed to be aside from a grade school gymnastics class, but it's not TKD.
> 
> I could also be somewhat jaded in the days of 8 year old black belts and McDojo's, too, but I hate to see TKD at this level.


 
You are right, it is not TKD, it is creative poomsase based on utilizing TKD techniques.  I hope nobody defines TKD simply on one aspect of it.  And what level are you talking about?  No one lowered the standards in order to fit this in.  If anything if you want to be successful in doing this type of poomsae you would have to step up your techniques.


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## StudentCarl (Nov 15, 2010)

Disco said:


> BTW...thanks for clearing up my confusion...now I know you are just ignorant.
> 
> Lets see..........I cleared up YOUR CONFUSION and I'm the ignorant one?....:lfao:
> 
> Oh, by the way, here's your emoticon.............:moon:


 
Jeez guys...all this over the "new creative poomsae division"??? Really?? Is the moon full?


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## dancingalone (Nov 15, 2010)

ETinCYQX said:


> I'm not one to ever say TKD has to be realistic or street effective. If I was looking for effective, I'd carry a knife or a weapon. This is just not TKD. I don't know what it is or what it's supposed to be aside from a grade school gymnastics class, but it's not TKD.
> 
> I could also be somewhat jaded in the days of 8 year old black belts and McDojo's, too, but I hate to see TKD at this level.



I also dislike that TKD has gained a reputation as a sports/babysitting activity for children.  Probably a well-served one to be honest.

Time to start reversing directions, I say.


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## dancingalone (Nov 15, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> Do you own a school?  If you do then you are always actively recruiting...that is if you want to keep your doors open.  Not sure about your area but there are tons of TKD schools around our area.  One not too much different than the other.  So why should I join School A as opposed to School B?  Programs available is the key.


In my area, there are indeed many TKD schools.  All of them cater to children - many participate in tournaments, so significant time is spent on things like point sparring and 'tournament' forms.  What would actually be novel in my area would be a school that focuses on other things, like perhaps self-defense training.



miguksaram said:


> Perhaps you can exlpain to me why it hurts us without using the same  old lame excuse of "it's not realistic or street effective".



TKD is facing a very real 'brain drain' in the near future.  The type of hard-hitting pre-Olympic, pre-kiddie TKD replete with close range fighting is no longer taught by and large.  The old guys from the time when TKD WAS an effective fighting system are dying off and they did not train their true replacements, as their students learned and are teaching a sportified TKD, devoid of anything other than high kicking for the long range.

Things like 'creative poomsae' only help accelerate the problem. As the art visibly moves more and more into this direction, more serious martial artists will elect to study other arts, leaving a TKD very much a creature of suburban soccer moms - no offense to suburban soccer moms.  

It's not too late to reverse things, but I'm afraid creative poomsae just isn't a step in the right direction in my opinion.


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## Disco (Nov 15, 2010)

"Well definetly one that fits your personality of being an ***."

Now lets see, you've already called me ignorant and an ***, so what other fine derogatory name are you going to look up now?

Apparently a serious nerve has been touched. Is it because your embedded (literally) with Koreans or do you just have a Don Quixote complex. The rebuttal offered as to where and by whom, was obviously discarded to fit your agenda. You asked for emoticons and you got what you asked for. It's just a shame that you didn't like what was offered........Hows that for sarcasm. 

As for StudentCarl........My initial post was totally based on the subject. Someone took exception and has taken it to a personal level. I won't just sit and let someone use derogatory comments and not respond. Perhaps quoting the perpetrator of the hijacking would have been a better solution to your displeasure.


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## miguksaram (Nov 15, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> I also dislike that TKD has gained a reputation as a sports/babysitting activity for children. Probably a well-served one to be honest.
> 
> Time to start reversing directions, I say.


 
The same can be said for the vast majority of commercial schools out there.  

Which direction shall we go?


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## dancingalone (Nov 15, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> The same can be said for the vast majority of *commercial *schools out there.
> 
> Which direction shall we go?



Hmm.  A coincidence I wonder?  Perhaps that's a good place to start self-examination.  Nothing wrong with earning your bread through martial arts instruction, but I don't think it is a random occurrence that many commercial schools are also 'poor' ones, at least by the criteria I use myself.  At the same time, I have no doubt at all that their owners have entirely different ideas what constitutes 'poor'.


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## miguksaram (Nov 15, 2010)

Disco said:


> "Well definetly one that fits your personality of being an ***."
> 
> Now lets see, you've already called me ignorant and an ***, so what other fine derogatory name are you going to look up now?
> 
> ...


 
Yes, I took offense because I'm tired of always reading remarks on how it is Koreans' fault or the Koreans are the ones doing this.  When in fact they are just pretty much implementing a trend that has been started by outside sources (non-Koreans).  So if you are going to push the greed factor be fair about.  All races have been doing this in TKD not just Koreans.

And why exactly is it greed when you are throwing an event an wanting it to be successful and make money?  Have you ever promoted an event before?  If you have, did you do it and thought "WOW!! I hope I lose my shirt on all this."


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## miguksaram (Nov 15, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> TKD is facing a very real 'brain drain' in the near future. The type of hard-hitting pre-Olympic, pre-kiddie TKD replete with close range fighting is no longer taught by and large. The old guys from the time when TKD WAS an effective fighting system are dying off and they did not train their true replacements, as their students learned and are teaching a sportified TKD, devoid of anything other than high kicking for the long range.
> 
> Things like 'creative poomsae' only help accelerate the problem. As the art visibly moves more and more into this direction, more serious martial artists will elect to study other arts, leaving a TKD very much a creature of suburban soccer moms - no offense to suburban soccer moms.
> 
> It's not too late to reverse things, but I'm afraid creative poomsae just isn't a step in the right direction in my opinion.


 

A lot of people talk about pre-olympic but pre-olympic mentality would have to push us back to mid to late 60's.  TKD has been olympic bound since 1973 (I believe), so anything pre-olympic would pretty much be shotokan karate with different forms.  It was pointed out on another thread that even one of the top MMA guys was a TKD champion.  So how can one say that we are dullifying TKD when there are plenty of good fighters who have come from TKD?  

I'm not a huge fan of sport TKD, I respect it and I won't deny that I like to watch a match every now and then but, overall I don't follow that often.  I also see where you are going with the liquification of the art to be more kid friendly.  So do we do away the kid programs in order to "preserve" the old ways?


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## dancingalone (Nov 15, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> A lot of people talk about pre-olympic but pre-olympic mentality would have to push us back to mid to late 60's.  TKD has been olympic bound since 1973 (I believe), so anything pre-olympic would pretty much be shotokan karate with different forms.  It was pointed out on another thread that even one of the top MMA guys was a TKD champion.  So how can one say that we are dullifying TKD when there are plenty of good fighters who have come from TKD?



Rather more good MMA fighters come from muay thai or BJJ or wrestling backgrounds than they do TKD, so I am not convinced sport TKD is a good entry path into MMA.  By the way, I don't necessarily equate MMA with self-defense training either, although for sure, it's a huge leap up in practical training compared to most sport TKD.

As for the karate bit, that's only part of the picture.  I am convinced that the Korean martial artists that were around during the formation of TKD were very well-rounded in their technical skills thanks to widespread study of yudo/judo.  They had also yet to develop the focus on fanciful kicks that came later during the late sixties and early seventies.  That combined with a tough-minded training atmosphere thanks to the war footing Korea was in for decades meant they produced good fighters that could be effective from all ranges.



miguksaram said:


> I'm not a huge fan of sport TKD, I respect it and I won't deny that I like to watch a match every now and then but, overall I don't follow that often.  I also see where you are going with the liquification of the art to be more kid friendly.  So do we do away the kid programs in order to "preserve" the old ways?



I don't think there is anything wrong with teaching kids, but a distinction should be made.  Too many lines are blurred when the adults and the kids are taught the same sanitized and sportified curriculum and then that is what is passed on as tae kwon do.  That's a problem and it's a big one to fix because all sorts of nasty, unwinnable issues like child black belts, sport sparring and empty forms are bound up into the discussion.


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## ETinCYQX (Nov 15, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> You are right, it is not TKD, it is creative poomsase based on utilizing TKD techniques.  I hope nobody defines TKD simply on one aspect of it.  And what level are you talking about?  No one lowered the standards in order to fit this in.  If anything if you want to be successful in doing this type of poomsae you would have to step up your techniques.



I think that you and I have very different opinions and views on TKD, and I can respect that. I can also acknowledge being maybe too much of a traditionalist for my own good sometimes. 



dancingalone said:


> I also dislike that TKD has gained a reputation as a sports/babysitting activity for children.  Probably a well-served one to be honest.
> 
> Time to start reversing directions, I say.



You and I would get along very well, I think. We have similar views and goals, despite our differing stance on a few issues. I can be optimistic that I will run my own school the way I'd like to see it run. It seems to be getting harder and harder though.


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## Disco (Nov 15, 2010)

"Yes, I took offense because I'm tired of always reading remarks on how  it is Koreans' fault or the Koreans are the ones doing this.  When in  fact they are just pretty much implementing a trend that has been  started by outside sources (non-Koreans).  So if you are going to push  the greed factor be fair about.  All races have been doing this in TKD  not just Koreans."

I'll agree that all races have been/are doing this in TKD, but let's not overlook the obvious. The Koreans came forth with TKD and the rest of us were tutored by them. What we learned from them was not only the martial art/physical aspects, but the business end also. So what all the other races are doing is the direct result of follow the leader. Now as to the subject of the Poomsae competition. Regardless if schools all over the planet are doing this, the international aspect is a vestige of the Koreans. Out of the clear blue sky, they decide to offer this new venue and you really want folks to think it's nothing more than holding TKD to higher standard. Just look at all the options that they have introduced within the past year or two. We've had the skip Dan, don't even have to show up promotional offering in Vegas. A couple of new competition levels added, Super seniors forms and sparring for the well over 60 group. The Masters courses in Chicago along with what ever other courses they dream up. We didn't have any of these things back in the 70's/80's or even the early 90's, that I can recall. To a lot of us, these are nothing more than money making venues and again, Koreans control the reigns. As I stated prior, your offering a biased opinion and I can understand that, but to resort to name calling is beneath you, I hold you to a much higher level than that. We'll just agree to disagree and be done with this situation...............:asian:


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## Tez3 (Nov 15, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Rather more good MMA fighters come from muay thai or BJJ or wrestling backgrounds than they do TKD, so I am not convinced sport TKD is a good entry path into MMA. By the way, I don't necessarily equate MMA with self-defense training either, although for sure, it's a huge leap up in practical training compared to most sport TKD.
> 
> As for the karate bit, that's only part of the picture. I am convinced that the Korean martial artists that were around during the formation of TKD were very well-rounded in their technical skills thanks to widespread study of yudo/judo. They had also yet to develop the focus on fanciful kicks that came later during the late sixties and early seventies. That combined with a tough-minded training atmosphere thanks to the war footing Korea was in for decades meant they produced good fighters that could be effective from all ranges.
> 
> ...


 

I can only speak for the Brits (which isn't saying they are better than anyone, I'm only speaking from my own experience) but the TKD people I know tend to be what you'd call old school. There still isn't the huge drive for money making on a large scale though it is here, schools with contracts etc and will possibly get bigger though being a small place we may never have schools where they have a thousand students. Most of the MMA fighters I know that come from TKD seem to be 'non sport' TKD, my friend's club where I sometimes train is hard core sparring and self defence type TKD. Perhaps more akin to karate? he trains children and adults separately which I enjoy, tbh I hate mixed adult and childrens classes, I think it does no good to teach them all the same and at the same time.

The various TKD people I meet on martial arts seminars around the country, which are open to all styles, seem well able to hold their own in the self defence sections and certainly have a good knowledge of techniques. I haven't met any 6 year old blackbelts either though I know they are around, they are usually the subject of media articles. A lot of the senior TKD black belts are very much pre Olympic TKD though, perhaps they keep the 'tough' TKD alive?


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## dancingalone (Nov 15, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> A lot of the senior TKD black belts are very much pre Olympic TKD though, perhaps they keep the 'tough' TKD alive?



That would be a nice thing if true.  Dunno.  Maybe it's cultural.  Maybe Brits take their TKD more seriously for whatever reason.

A lot of this is expectation-based.  My sister put my niece and nephew into TKD as a fun activity to do, so that's exactly what it is to them.  Even though they generally work hard when they are in class, it is not something that permeates their lives and so I think there is a very real glass ceiling for them to reach in terms of skill and they've reached it already.  They won't get better without making a fuller commitment.  

It's also frustrating to me as their uncle to see how shallow their understanding is of what they are doing.  No sense of controlling the opponent or their surroundings at all.  No idea how to cancel out the opponent's advantages through manipulating height zones or even pure range.  No competence at anything other than punching and kicking with a heavy emphasis on the latter.

But you can only lead people to water.  You can't make them drink.  I'm fairly sure even if their instructors suddenly wised up tomorrow, the kids still wouldn't want it.  They just want their cool belts, trophies, and tag games!  :uhyeah:


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## Tez3 (Nov 15, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> That would be a nice thing if true. Dunno. Maybe it's cultural. Maybe Brits take their TKD more seriously for whatever reason.
> 
> A lot of this is expectation-based. My sister put my niece and nephew into TKD as a fun activity to do, so that's exactly what it is to them. Even though they generally work hard when they are in class, it is not something that permeates their lives and so I think there is a very real glass ceiling for them to reach in terms of skill and they've reached it already. They won't get better without making a fuller commitment.
> 
> ...


 

It could be that I gravitate towards the people my own age (the oldies) at seminars lol so I only tend to see the more hard core people from 'back in the day' lol. Perhaps the people who go to these seminars are all like minded when it comes to martial arts, I've been to Iain Abernethy's seminars and they attract plenty of TKD folk.

Everything over here though tends to be on the smallish side, in MMA we have a couple of full time fighters and I practically know all the promoters and fighters there's so few of us though it's growing, I think TKD while being more widespread here than MMA is still fairly small, I think karate mostly Shotokan and Wado are perhaps more widespread. You'd have to ask someone like Stuart A about TKD classes here, I don't think we have the childcare element so much yet, probably because most martial arts classes of any type are in schools after hours or in sports/leisure centres which cost to hire. Few places have their own premises, it's a dream for most of us. I'm not sure at the moment there's much money in martial arts (if there is I wish some of it would come our way!), it will  change, we have billing companies pestering us to sign up and get people on contracts. There's plenty of ads trying to sell martial arts as big business so it'll come.


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## KarateMomUSA (Nov 15, 2010)

taekwondodo said:


> There will be a new Creative Poomsae division at beginning at 2011 World Poomsae Championship.
> 
> I do not know how detail the break down will be, but it will not be the same division like what we have for the traditional Sport Poomsae.
> 
> ...


[FONT=&quot][/FONT] [FONT=&quot]From my understanding the new Poomsae set up will still require players to do a traditional poomsae. Then they will be asked to perform the creative poomsae which will be devised in Korea by the TKD leaders there. So it will not be an opportunity for students to just make up their own. Rather they will all get the same amount of time to study and learn the new poomsae. This is done to make it better for the observers and create more TKD looking forms, getting away from the karate like ones. The creative poomsae will have traditional moves and techniques, not flips & gym moves. They will also be different each year. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]It is a radical new concept.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The post that started this thread included a you tube example of a creative poomsae and what I think is not going to be type in the world championships.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]This poomsae was performed to the music of Arirang which is arguably the most beloved folk song in all of Korea, both north & south. The person performing this poomsae is doing so in front of a banner that contains the flag of a unified Korea which is the Korean peninsula in blue plus the link to the rules shows the rules from 2003 that were to be effective in April 2006.I do not believe this to be the current rules that are being proposed[/FONT]


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## terryl965 (Nov 15, 2010)

Karatemon sorry to say you are wrong, they are allow to make up there form but have to use so many TKD movements per form. Also they have not been anything like Karate for a longtime, the TaeGuek are hardly anything to any Karate Kata.


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## ralphmcpherson (Nov 15, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> Do you own a school?  If you do then you are always actively recruiting...that is if you want to keep your doors open.  Not sure about your area but there are tons of TKD schools around our area.  One not too much different than the other.  So why should I join School A as opposed to School B?  Programs available is the key.
> 
> Perhaps you can exlpain to me why it hurts us without using the same old lame excuse of "it's not realistic or street effective".


Our tkd club actually attracts students because we DONT get into all the flashy stuff. There is a huge market out there for people wanting "realistic and street effective martial arts", and these people are simply turned off when they walk into a dojang and see people jumping around like gymnasts. Yes, there is a market out there also for the flashy stuff, but you are mistaken if you think a club has to offer that to 'keep their doors open'. Our club is flourishing and its because we focus heavily on the self defence side of tkd, and thats what many potential clientel are looking for.


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## ralphmcpherson (Nov 15, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> I can only speak for the Brits (which isn't saying they are better than anyone, I'm only speaking from my own experience) but the TKD people I know tend to be what you'd call old school. There still isn't the huge drive for money making on a large scale though it is here, schools with contracts etc and will possibly get bigger though being a small place we may never have schools where they have a thousand students. Most of the MMA fighters I know that come from TKD seem to be 'non sport' TKD, my friend's club where I sometimes train is hard core sparring and self defence type TKD. Perhaps more akin to karate? he trains children and adults separately which I enjoy, tbh I hate mixed adult and childrens classes, I think it does no good to teach them all the same and at the same time.
> 
> The various TKD people I meet on martial arts seminars around the country, which are open to all styles, seem well able to hold their own in the self defence sections and certainly have a good knowledge of techniques. I haven't met any 6 year old blackbelts either though I know they are around, they are usually the subject of media articles. A lot of the senior TKD black belts are very much pre Olympic TKD though, perhaps they keep the 'tough' TKD alive?


Im really starting to think it may be a cultural thing. I can only speak on behalf of my local area but we have 3 very large (in excess of 3000 students) tkd clubs in my proximity that basically have a monopoly on the area. All 3 of these clubs are non-kukkiwon, old style, self defence related tkd clubs. We do have olympic style clubs around the place but even if you combined all their students they would still have far less students than 'the big three'. It is only from reading on forums such as these that I am even aware of all the negatives associated with tkd. It appears that 'old school' tkd clubs are on the decline in America. There really is a huge market for traditional tkd and Im surprised more people dont take advantage of this.


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## Tez3 (Nov 16, 2010)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Im really starting to think it may be a cultural thing. I can only speak on behalf of my local area but we have 3 very large (in excess of 3000 students) tkd clubs in my proximity that basically have a monopoly on the area. All 3 of these clubs are non-kukkiwon, old style, self defence related tkd clubs. We do have olympic style clubs around the place but even if you combined all their students they would still have far less students than 'the big three'. It is only from reading on forums such as these that I am even aware of all the negatives associated with tkd. It appears that 'old school' tkd clubs are on the decline in America. There really is a huge market for traditional tkd and Im surprised more people dont take advantage of this.


 
Until I came onto MT I didn't realise that there was a different 'type' of TKD, I'd always trained at my mates club in the same way I'd trained at my karate club. The sparring was the same, kicks punches and attitude none of the Olympic stuff which quite honestly I'd taken no notice of until the Beijing Games. The self defence stuff was the same, we swapped techniques all the time. The only difference was in the way some techniques were performed, neither better nor worse than karate just a different way of doing them and the patterns but even there I could see what the movements were and work out the Bunkai. I even learned the first couple. We didn't do three and one step in my karate club but that was easy to pick up and see the point of, we do it now in TSD the same way with no pre organised movements. 

I think perhaps when martial arts becomes a big business with money making the prime reason for having clubs/schools you will get watering down to attract as many people in as you can get. There's a huge pressure on parents these days to give their children every edge they can to get into good schools, to achieve, to get good careers etc. Anything that offers all the things a martial art can offer has got to be attractive to parents, they are willing to sacrifice a lot to pay for activities their children seem to to need. There's a ready made market for a place that wants to make good money.

I have a friend who's currently living in Australia, he's lived here twice and Oz twice, his children went to school both here and over there, I think the school systems in both places is different from American schools, thers more emphasis on sports so that parents expect their children to actually be doing effective martial arts rather than using the classes as childcare. From what I've seen Austrailians are very competitive ( I realise this is prob an understatement lol) in sports and anything wishy wasy won't run with them. Kids who are used to Aussie rules and rugby aren't going to want to be fannying around in a martial arts class, they want the real thing! The adults defintely won't want the dancing type of TKD!


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## ralphmcpherson (Nov 16, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> Until I came onto MT I didn't realise that there was a different 'type' of TKD, I'd always trained at my mates club in the same way I'd trained at my karate club. The sparring was the same, kicks punches and attitude none of the Olympic stuff which quite honestly I'd taken no notice of until the Beijing Games. The self defence stuff was the same, we swapped techniques all the time. The only difference was in the way some techniques were performed, neither better nor worse than karate just a different way of doing them and the patterns but even there I could see what the movements were and work out the Bunkai. I even learned the first couple. We didn't do three and one step in my karate club but that was easy to pick up and see the point of, we do it now in TSD the same way with no pre organised movements.
> 
> I think perhaps when martial arts becomes a big business with money making the prime reason for having clubs/schools you will get watering down to attract as many people in as you can get. There's a huge pressure on parents these days to give their children every edge they can to get into good schools, to achieve, to get good careers etc. Anything that offers all the things a martial art can offer has got to be attractive to parents, they are willing to sacrifice a lot to pay for activities their children seem to to need. There's a ready made market for a place that wants to make good money.
> 
> I have a friend who's currently living in Australia, he's lived here twice and Oz twice, his children went to school both here and over there, I think the school systems in both places is different from American schools, thers more emphasis on sports so that parents expect their children to actually be doing effective martial arts rather than using the classes as childcare. From what I've seen Austrailians are very competitive ( I realise this is prob an understatement lol) in sports and anything wishy wasy won't run with them. Kids who are used to Aussie rules and rugby aren't going to want to be fannying around in a martial arts class, they want the real thing! The adults defintely won't want the dancing type of TKD!


You pretty much hit the nail on the head there Tez. Aussieis find it hard to have a 'friendly' game of anything and even backyard cricket ends up like a test match. We have a massive number of sportspeople on the world stage in many sports for such a small country and we dont accept failure in sport. Even when I coach my son's soccer team the parents take it very seriously (and he is under 6's). We do have mcdojos though, and quite a few in certain areas, but generally if a parent puts their kid in martial arts they want them to learn how to fight, they love all the trimmings that go along with it also (respect, confidence etc), but the main focus is learning to fight.


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## miguksaram (Nov 16, 2010)

Disco said:


> I'll agree that all races have been/are doing this in TKD, but let's not overlook the obvious. The Koreans came forth with TKD and the rest of us were tutored by them.  What we learned from them was not only the martial art/physical aspects, but the business end also. So what all the other races are doing is the direct result of follow the leader.


So you are saying that none of the students had any business savy until the Koreans taught them?  Bill Clark one of the biggest money makers in TKD did not get his money training from Lee.  He helped in the development of the business that is now ATA.  Plus not every Korean teaching TKD is opening tons of branch schools.  As I look around my area there are only a few chain schools which less than half are Korean owned.



			
				Disco said:
			
		

> Now as to the subject of the Poomsae competition. Regardless if schools all over the planet are doing this, the international aspect is a vestige of the Koreans. Out of the clear blue sky, they decide to offer this new venue and you really want folks to think it's nothing more than holding TKD to higher standard.


 
I never said that it was holding TKD to a higher standard.  I said that it was a way to attract people into competition and possibly schools who do this a part of their program.  Never said this would place TKD at a higher standard.



			
				Disco said:
			
		

> Just look at all the options that they have introduced within the past year or two. We've had the skip Dan, don't even have to show up promotional offering in Vegas. A couple of new competition levels added, Super seniors forms and sparring for the well over 60 group. The Masters courses in Chicago along with what ever other courses they dream up. We didn't have any of these things back in the 70's/80's or even the early 90's, that I can recall.


 
So it is a bad thing that they now offer such items.  I definetly agree that what went down in LV was bad and that they group who ran that screwed it up...USAT right?  As for skip dans, that has gone on forever through the schools.  So not sure how offering an actual testing is any different than someone going through their own school to do it.  

Why is it such a bad thing that KKW decided to hold the a masters' course here in the US saving people a lot more money that if they were to travel to Korea to do it?  The whole argument of we didn't have this way back when, just doesn't make sense.  So you didn't have it while you were coming up in ranks, does that automatically make it bad for the new generation to have these opportunities?

As for the USTC who sponsors the master courses, they lose money doing it.  They offer it so to help TKD people have the opportunity to takes these courses who other wise would not be able to due to finances.



> ... but to resort to name calling is beneath you, I hold you to a much higher level than that.


And I apologize for that.  However, you statements rang with racism towards the Koreans, singling them out as the root of all evil in TKD.  Sorry but the Koreans do not hold the monopoly in money making in TKD and while other races may have learned from them others have been more than capable of capatilizing on their own.


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## miguksaram (Nov 16, 2010)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Our tkd club actually attracts students because we DONT get into all the flashy stuff. There is a huge market out there for people wanting "realistic and street effective martial arts", and these people are simply turned off when they walk into a dojang and see people jumping around like gymnasts. Yes, there is a market out there also for the flashy stuff, but you are mistaken if you think a club has to offer that to 'keep their doors open'. Our club is flourishing and its because we focus heavily on the self defence side of tkd, and thats what many potential clientel are looking for.


I never said that they had to offer it in order to keep their doors open.  I said that by offering it, it tends to attract more individuals who otherwise may not have been interested in martial arts.


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## Tez3 (Nov 16, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> I never said that they had to offer it in order to keep their doors open. I said that by offering it, it tends to attract more individuals who otherwise may not have been interested in martial arts.


 

It may well put more people off than it attracts. The sheer gymnastic efforts involved in some of this stuff would put a lot of people off who could actually manage 'normal' martial arts.

If it attracts people into a class and then they find out you'd don't actually teach it, they will think it's false advertising.


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## miguksaram (Nov 16, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> It may well put more people off than it attracts. The sheer gymnastic efforts involved in some of this stuff would put a lot of people off who could actually manage 'normal' martial arts.
> 
> If it attracts people into a class and then they find out you'd don't actually teach it, they will think it's false advertising.


Creative poomsae does not actually equate the need to know gymnastics.  That is a totally different realm on its own.  I can not speak for every school that has a program like this, I can only speak for our school. We are up front with anyone interested in learning that program, that they will have to be enrolled in our core program for a while in order to build a strong foundation before they can start any creative items.  The other option is if they come from previous martial arts training or are currently enrolled in another school, they can take this particular program as well.  

I think it is only false advertisement if you tell them that you can teach them how to do all of that when you can't or that you tell them that is all they are going to learn and nothing else.


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## Tez3 (Nov 16, 2010)

It seems more like cheerleading than martial arts though. I think it could be a fun activity for kids to help then lern the movements but not as a serious competitive event. The basic point of learning kata/pattrns/forms is learning their content, the Bunkai for self defence, this is just an amusement.


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## dancingalone (Nov 16, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> Creative poomsae does not actually equate the need to know gymnastics.  That is a totally different realm on its own.  I can not speak for every school that has a program like this, I can only speak for our school. We are up front with anyone interested in learning that program, that they will have to be enrolled in our core program for a while in order to build a strong foundation before they can start any creative items.  The other option is if they come from previous martial arts training or are currently enrolled in another school, they can take this particular program as well.



Perhaps it is not totally fair, but I envision something ultimately resulting in creative poomsae like those ISKA weapons forms competitions.  The people in ISKA weapons tournaments in fact display poor fundamentals in handling their weapons when you view it from a traditional kobudo background as I do.  They use extremely light weapons expressively designed for competition, and thus they do all sorts of 'tricks' virtually impossible to perform with a standard traditional weapon.  Yet, take the toy bo for example and use it in a traditional partner drill with a traditional bo and the toy wouldn't even stand up to a single block, parry, and strike exchange.

It's a totally different activity altogether from traditional kobudo.  I fear this creative poomsae thing will also evolve along the lines of what XMA is.


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## miguksaram (Nov 16, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> It seems more like cheerleading than martial arts though. I think it could be a fun activity for kids to help then lern the movements but not as a serious competitive event. The basic point of learning kata/pattrns/forms is learning their content, the Bunkai for self defence, this is just an amusement.


 
Then why compete with any kata/poomsae if the only intent is to learn bunkai?  With that logic it kata should not be in competitions at all.  Try telling those athletes who do creative and extreme (the name given when they add the acrobatics and tricks) forms, that it is not a serious competitive event.  Those who are top in this division work their butts off to get there.

All competition is amusement.


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## miguksaram (Nov 16, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Perhaps it is not totally fair, but I envision something ultimately resulting in creative poomsae like those ISKA weapons forms competitions. The people in ISKA weapons tournaments in fact display poor fundamentals in handling their weapons when you view it from a traditional kobudo background as I do. They use extremely light weapons expressively designed for competition, and thus they do all sorts of 'tricks' virtually impossible to perform with a standard traditional weapon. Yet, take the toy bo for example and use it in a traditional partner drill with a traditional bo and the toy wouldn't even stand up to a single block, parry, and strike exchange.
> 
> It's a totally different activity altogether from traditional kobudo. I fear this creative poomsae thing will also evolve along the lines of what XMA is.


 
I agree that it is a totally different activity from traditional kobudo.  It is not meant to be traditional, but honestly wish I could dispute you on this but I can't.  For the most part you are correct.  Many of those kids don't get proper kobudo training and their basics suck!  They have great tricks, but over all technique is novice at best.  Now this is not the same all around.  There are some of them out there that do the flash and have great basics, because they train traditionally as well as creatively.

With the same mind set, you can say that traditional forms will evolve, or devolve depending on your view, the sam way as creative.  Forms change all the time some even to the point that they are taught strictly for competition and nothing else.  There are a lot of schools that are slowly taking away proper bunkai eith for lack of not knowing or lack of not caring.


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## Tez3 (Nov 16, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> Then why compete with any kata/poomsae if the only intent is to learn bunkai? With that logic it kata should not be in competitions at all. Try telling those athletes who do creative and extreme (the name given when they add the acrobatics and tricks) forms, that it is not a serious competitive event. Those who are top in this division work their butts off to get there.
> 
> All competition is amusement.


 

Indeed, why do people compete in kata, all they are doing is going through the motions to see who moves nicely. Pointless.
I'm sure they do work hard but the point of kata is still Bunkai, it wasn't formed to make a competition or to be creative, it was designed as realistic self defence. However hard these people train it doesn't take away kata's function. Kata without Bunkai is just movements.


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## miguksaram (Nov 16, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> Indeed, why do people compete in kata, all they are doing is going through the motions to see who moves nicely. Pointless.
> I'm sure they do work hard but the point of kata is still Bunkai, it wasn't formed to make a competition or to be creative, it was designed as realistic self defence. However hard these people train it doesn't take away kata's function. Kata without Bunkai is just movements.


 
I can't disagree with that.  

So your whole view point is that there should be no forms at all in competition...only fighting.  But then shouldn't we just do away with all fighting competition because it does not reflect the life or death combat you would have to use in the street in order to survive.  Even MMA does not have groin shots or eye gouging or throat strikes.  So fighting in competition is basicly useless as well since it does not meet the core purpose.


----------



## Disco (Nov 16, 2010)

I had intended to let this discussion go after my last post, but for some misguided reason, you refuse to see the forest for the trees. We'll discuss items one at a time:

                                "So you are saying that none of the students had any business savy until the Koreans taught them?"

Of course every student that joined TKD when it first came over already had degrees in business from Harvard. (Sarcasm at it's finest). The VAST majority of people that trained in a NEW form of martial arts had no background in operating a dojang or opting for an organization or running a tournament. They watched what their instructors did, are doing and followed suit. So yes the obvious answer that they had no martial arts business savy.

"Bill Clark one of the biggest money makers in  TKD did not get his money training from Lee.  He helped in the  development of the business that is now ATA."

So one particular American, joined in the development of ATA and ATA was birthed long after TKD came here, and that constitutes an open door for all of us? I'm sure that Bill watched and learned during his formative time in training, from his instructor(s).

  "Plus not every Korean teaching TKD is opening tons of branch schools"

Never said they were, but offering "not every" sure indicates that many do.

"I never said that it was holding TKD to a higher standard.  I said that  it was a way to attract people into competition and possibly schools who  do this a part of their program.  Never said this would place TKD at a  higher standard."

OK, so just getting more people into competition has nothing to do with TKD standards, then it's just a way to glean more money from additional people. Now which tenant would that fall under?

"So it is a bad thing that they now offer such items.  I definetly agree that what went down in LV was bad"

Contradiction here? Your phrasing of "So it's a bad thing" seems to condone these items, but then you agree that Vegas was bad.

"group who ran that screwed it up...USAT right?"

USAT correct, at the behest of the Kukkiwon and Kukkiwon reps were on site. Guess were the funds went................................Back to the Kukkiwon.

"Why is it such a bad thing that KKW decided to hold the a masters'  course here in the US saving people a lot more money that if they were  to travel to Korea to do it?"

It's exactly that reason, travel to Korea. that prompted them to come over here and offer it. They made more money by having more folks attend here states side. It's just simple math. 25 people have the means to travel to Korea, where as 100 people can drive to Chicago.

"The whole argument of we didn't have this way back when, just doesn't make sense."

Like I said, can't/won't see the forest for the trees. If it wasn't needed back then, why would or should it be needed now? You know the answer, but your bias won't let you admit to it.

"As for the USTC who sponsors the master courses, they lose money doing  it.  They offer it so to help TKD people have the opportunity to takes  these courses who other wise would not be able to due to finances."

They lose money and you know for a fact that they do? I can't see it and absolutely don't trust it. As I said prior, we didn't have or need it back when and for them to offer it now and as you say lose money on an unneeded function makes no sense and it's BAD BUSINESS!........

"Sorry but the Koreans do not hold the monopoly in money  making in TKD and while other races may have learned from them others  have been more than capable of capatilizing on their own."

Never said that they did, but here by your own admission, which goes against what you said earlier, other's learned from them. 

"However, you statements rang with racism towards the Koreans,"

They were not racist, but your biased opinion saw them that way. I was only pointing out the focal point of the International Poomsae competition was at the direction of the Kukkiwon or the WTF and both are located in Korea and run by Koreans. That's a statement of fact, not a race issue. 

The one thing we will totally agree on is that we see things very differently. So be it.


----------



## miguksaram (Nov 16, 2010)

Disco said:


> I had intended to let this discussion go after my last post, but for some misguided reason, you refuse to see the forest for the trees. We'll discuss items one at a time:
> 
> "So you are saying that none of the students had any business savy until the Koreans taught them?"
> 
> Of course every student that joined TKD when it first came over already had degrees in business from Harvard. (Sarcasm at it's finest). The VAST majority of people that trained in a NEW form of martial arts had no background in operating a dojang or opting for an organization or running a tournament. They watched what their instructors did, are doing and followed suit. So yes the obvious answer that they had no martial arts business savy.


 
What you are saying here applies to the Koreans as well.  You state it as though they all came to America knowing how to tap the market and make money.  Many of them coming over here in the beginning did not have a lot of business savy or knew how to run a tournament.  It wasn't like today where there was a tournament happening every weekend...even in Korea.  Many of them had help from their students as well as just busted their @$$ to make it work.



			
				Disco said:
			
		

> So one particular American, joined in the development of ATA and ATA was birthed long after TKD came here, and that constitutes an open door for all of us? I'm sure that Bill watched and learned during his formative time in training, from his instructor(s).


Ummm...not quite.  It seems it was his business savy that help build ATA not Lee's.  Bill Clark is just one example.  We can talk about the Kovar's, who I believe are Kenpo.  They have a chain of schools as well and there many others similar who were not raised under the Koreans.



			
				Disco said:
			
		

> "Plus not every Korean teaching TKD is opening tons of branch schools"
> 
> Never said they were, but offering "not every" sure indicates that many do.


 
So if I say not all black people steal do you automatically think that indicates that many do?  Sorry but that logic doesn't seem right.




			
				Disco said:
			
		

> "I never said that it was holding TKD to a higher standard. I said that it was a way to attract people into competition and possibly schools who do this a part of their program. Never said this would place TKD at a higher standard."
> 
> OK, so just getting more people into competition has nothing to do with TKD standards, then it's just a way to glean more money from additional people. Now which tenant would that fall under?


 
How does wanting a successful event go against or having anything to do with tenents?  Again, have you ever had your own event and if so did you do so hoping to lose money?



			
				Disco said:
			
		

> "So it is a bad thing that they now offer such items. I definetly agree that what went down in LV was bad"
> 
> Contradiction here? Your phrasing of "So it's a bad thing" seems to condone these items, but then you agree that Vegas was bad.


 
The concept is not a bad thing.  How USAT executed it was.



			
				Disco said:
			
		

> "group who ran that screwed it up...USAT right?"
> 
> USAT correct, at the behest of the Kukkiwon and Kukkiwon reps were on site. Guess were the funds went................................Back to the Kukkiwon.


 
From what I have heard there were problems with because USAT kept a lot of that money and allowed people to test who were not qualified for.  KKW had no prior knowledge of the applicants as they relied on USAT to screen them.  Then USAT pushed everything back on KKW saying it was all their fault that things did go right.

So yes Las Vegas did not reflect a positive result of what should have a nice opportunity for folks.

"Why is it such a bad thing that KKW decided to hold the a masters' course here in the US saving people a lot more money that if they were to travel to Korea to do it?"



			
				Disco said:
			
		

> It's exactly that reason, travel to Korea. that prompted them to come over here and offer it. They made more money by having more folks attend here states side. It's just simple math. 25 people have the means to travel to Korea, where as 100 people can drive to Chicago.


 
Ok so it is their greed to come over here and help promote TKD.  I can see it now...hovering over a bottle of soju until VIOLA!!!  Hey we can suck more money out of these saps if  we went there!  Question...how come they don't just have a traveling group of GM's to do this all over the world then?



			
				Disco said:
			
		

> "The whole argument of we didn't have this way back when, just doesn't make sense."
> 
> Like I said, can't/won't see the forest for the trees. If it wasn't needed back then, why would or should it be needed now? You know the answer, but your bias won't let you admit to it.


 
You know people got along just fine without them horseless carriages.  Heck I was still able to get my letters way before them there email startin' come around.  We didn't need them back then why do we need them now?



			
				Disco said:
			
		

> "As for the USTC who sponsors the master courses, they lose money doing it. They offer it so to help TKD people have the opportunity to takes these courses who other wise would not be able to due to finances."
> 
> They lose money and you know for a fact that they do? I can't see it and absolutely don't trust it. As I said prior, we didn't have or need it back when and for them to offer it now and as you say lose money on an unneeded function makes no sense and it's BAD BUSINESS!........


 
Yes, I absolutely know that they lost money.  Wait bad business?  But you said they are trying to milk us for all of our money.  So which is it?  Bad business or is it the fact they are trying to help people achieve certain progression in TKD that otherwise wouldn't be available to them due to lack of funds.



			
				Disco said:
			
		

> "Sorry but the Koreans do not hold the monopoly in money making in TKD and while other races may have learned from them others have been more than capable of capatilizing on their own."
> 
> Never said that they did, but here by your own admission, which goes against what you said earlier, other's learned from them.


 
My point was that people were more than capable of capitalizing regardless if they learned from Koreans or Chinese or Japanese. 

Anyway, it is what it is.


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## Disco (Nov 16, 2010)

As I said prior, we'll never see the sky the same color. No matter what I offer in the discussion, your full over bloated bias comes shinning through. You want/need to defend any and all negative discussions about Koreans and to be honest, I'm tired of talking to a tree. A lot of us can actually see the forest...............:deadhorse


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## Tez3 (Nov 16, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> I can't disagree with that.
> 
> So your whole view point is that there should be no forms at all in competition...only fighting. But then shouldn't we just do away with all fighting competition because it does not reflect the life or death combat you would have to use in the street in order to survive. Even MMA does not have groin shots or eye gouging or throat strikes. So fighting in competition is basicly useless as well since it does not meet the core purpose.


 
Oh we have car park fights, anything goes, dead and bloody bodies everywhere.!

Kata without Bunkai is just movements, the same as Taebo or boxercise, it doesn't reflect it's use. Sparring and competition fighting does reflect it's use. Non martial artists look at kata with music and see dance, they see no use for the movements. The same people watching MMA/sparring etc can see what the movements are for, it's self explanitory.


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## taekwondodo (Nov 16, 2010)

Y'll opposing this without having ANY knowledge on the subject.  The guidelines isn't even out yet and y'll just jumping to alot of conclusion. Flashy this, flashy that...and here I thought y'll have an open mind. *sheesh*

What if the guide lines said, there is a team of no more than 5 people, 1 person have to be a female *making that up* and in your routine you must do:
1. front kicks
2. Side kicks
3. 2 flying side kicks
4. 1 jumping reverse side kicks.
5. middle blocks
6. 2 double knife hand blocks...etc..

-No back flips
-No leg sweeps
-et.
Duration is 1-2 minutes
Instrumental music only
Performers must be synchronize and physical expression must be coinside with music.

I can see that for World Competition.


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## ETinCYQX (Nov 16, 2010)

taekwondodo said:


> and here I thought y'll have an open mind.


 
Nope. Where'd you get an idea like that? :ultracool

I still hate it just on principle. Probably not going to convince me otherwise, either.


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## dancingalone (Nov 16, 2010)

taekwondodo said:


> Y'll opposing this without having ANY knowledge on the subject.  The guidelines isn't even out yet and y'll just jumping to alot of conclusion. Flashy this, flashy that...and here I thought y'll have an open mind. *sheesh*
> 
> What if the guide lines said, there is a team of no more than 5 people, 1 person have to be a female *making that up* and in your routine you must do:
> 1. front kicks
> ...



That still sounds really dumb to me.  But different strokes for different folks.


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## ralphmcpherson (Nov 16, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> I never said that they had to offer it in order to keep their doors open.  I said that by offering it, it tends to attract more individuals who otherwise may not have been interested in martial arts.


Thats the problem though, by offering it it will deter others from joining who dont want that sort of thing. If I walked into a club and saw people doing forms to music I wouldnt join because its not my thing, so it works both ways.


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## miguksaram (Nov 17, 2010)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Thats the problem though, by offering it it will deter others from joining who dont want that sort of thing. If I walked into a club and saw people doing forms to music I wouldnt join because its not my thing, so it works both ways.


So instead of asking what they are doing you just assume that is all they have to offere and you would turn around and walk out?   Let's say you are someone who only likes sparring and you walk into a school that is just doing kata at the time you walk in, would you just turn around and walk out with that same mindset?

Besides no one said you HAD to do the creative stuff.  It is an EXTRA program that a school offers, not the core program itself.


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## miguksaram (Nov 17, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> Oh we have car park fights, anything goes, dead and bloody bodies everywhere.!
> 
> Kata without Bunkai is just movements, the same as Taebo or boxercise, it doesn't reflect it's use. Sparring and competition fighting does reflect it's use. Non martial artists look at kata with music and see dance, they see no use for the movements. The same people watching MMA/sparring etc can see what the movements are for, it's self explanitory.


 
So when you learn your kata for the first time they just right away start attacking you in your school?  You never run your kata at the school without having to do bunkai while you run it?


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## Tez3 (Nov 17, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> So when you learn your kata for the first time they just right away start attacking you in your school? You never run your kata at the school without having to do bunkai while you run it?


 
Kata and Bunkai is taught at the same time, we don't teach the kata then the Bunkai. We aren't a school, we are a club and only the children do TMAs.

Only the travellers who come to the MMA class have car park fights, all over the country usually of course often people attack them anyway.


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## miguksaram (Nov 17, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> Kata and Bunkai is taught at the same time, we don't teach the kata then the Bunkai. We aren't a school, we are a club and only the children do TMAs.
> 
> Only the travellers who come to the MMA class have car park fights, all over the country usually of course often people attack them anyway.


 
Interesting.  So then adults don't learn kata at all they just do the MMA aspect?  For the kids do they learn techniques and then kata/bunkai which refelct those techniques?  Which kata are they learning?  Also, why teach TMA at all, why not just teach the kids MMA?

BTW...my questions are not to antagonize...I am genuinely curious about the club's methods of teaching.


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## Tez3 (Nov 17, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> Interesting. So then adults don't learn kata at all they just do the MMA aspect? For the kids do they learn techniques and then kata/bunkai which refelct those techniques? Which kata are they learning? Also, why teach TMA at all, why not just teach the kids MMA?
> 
> *BTW...my questions are not to antagonize...I am genuinely curious about the club's methods of teaching*.


 

 I understand that so no worries. 

The children learn TSD and Judo, we also try to teach them about as many martial arts as we can, we show them as many various ways of bowing, going into fighting stance ie left foot forward or right foot back etc and that sort of thing as we can. Most children will only stay with us for a couple of years or so before their parents are posted out so we try to make sure that wherever they go next they will be comfortable in whatever style of martial arts are available where they going. We don't teach them other styles just make them aware of them, its actually quite interesting though and does foster a liking for all arts.

My instructor has done Shotokan, I've done Wado and we both do TSD, all three are reasonably alike. We teach the Bunkai as we teach the katas, they put the Bunkai into their self defence training too.

I attend as many of Iain Abernethy's seminars as I can as well as using his books and DVDs. he's very good if you want to know anything or need advice on techniques etc. A very nice man as well as being a scary one.

We don't teach MMA until they are fourteen as we think it's better to learn a TMA first, very few people in UK teach children MMA, it's considered an adult thing so the children wouldn't find many places to train once they left us. We do a lot of ground work as well as the usual throws in the Judo which was my instructors first art many moons ago before he joined the Army, he too has a few different styles under his belt due to moving around a lot.

I do have a TSD class for adults but it's not been on for nearly eight months. I'll get to that in a minute. We teach MMA to adults because it's the best style for people who cannot be at regular training every week. Apart from the teenagers our students are all serving soldiers as are most of the children's parents. We have no syllabus so can train each session according to who is in, that way with duties, deployments and leave etc they never feel they are missing anything and they can always catch up. We can fit each class to what the students who are in need. We do put a lot of traditional techniques into our training and we do a lot of SD work mostly geared to crowd and riot type of scenerios. There's a big interest in MMA at the moment and the 'higher ups' in the army seem to approve of it as a useful adjunct to military training. The other thing is that the soldiers can come straight into the class and not have to learn too many techniques all at once or to worry about grading. When they have so much training at 'work' they want something that is fun, enjoyable and they can pick up the basics fast. Most can already box, that just needs a little readjustment to stances etc. Many have done a TMA when they were younger in civvy street but have been unable to pick it back up due to service commitments so we actually have very few complete beginners.
We have people coming in too from other places when they are here on course or training, they always add to the pot of techniques which is great.

I started a class last year for those who wanted to do MMA but also wanted to do TSD and grade. I made it a small class of 7 adults all soldiers from the same regiment the Quuen's Royal Lancers, along with a young assistant from the MMA class who's dad and brother are in the Scots Guards. The class closed down seven and a half months ago when they went to Afghanistan. While there one of my students, Steptoe, who was only 20 was killed by an IED. 

We had a lot of the lads in the MMA class also in Afghan, they are back now and have popped in to say hello before going on leave. We'll be back to full training again in a couple of weeks. 

I haven't decided what to do about the adult TSD class though, I want to get my students together to see what we want to do, training without Steptoe seems odd and somehow wrong but stopping training also seems wrong. One of the lads, Smudge was in last night, he's not the same person who went out, you can see it in his eyes. It's hit them badly. The lad who was helping me had his dad and brother in Afghan, his brother was injured by an IED, his dad John heard it go up. Both John jnr and snr are fine now but John senior who is our conditioning coach has had a hard tour. We'll have to see what the other lads are like when they are back properly. I think the next few months are going to be a bit rough both in the club and outside. Next year the Brigade are booked to go back to Canada at BATUS for training for Afghan in 2012. 

At the moment even writing about Steptoe brings tears to my eyes I'm afraid but everyone is trying to get on with life all over the garrison so I can't dwell on it. We are looking to fundraise for army charities with a fight night early next year and we have the children's grading coming up, they of course have been distracted too by their fathers being away, some of them have been living on their nerves so I can't complain I guess. 

Anyway sorry for prattling on, I do you know lol! I hope though you can see why we teach what we do.


----------



## miguksaram (Nov 17, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> I understand that so no worries.
> 
> The children learn TSD and Judo, we also try to teach them about as many martial arts as we can, we show them as many various ways of bowing, going into fighting stance ie left foot forward or right foot back etc and that sort of thing as we can. Most children will only stay with us for a couple of years or so before their parents are posted out so we try to make sure that wherever they go next they will be comfortable in whatever style of martial arts are available where they going. We don't teach them other styles just make them aware of them, its actually quite interesting though and does foster a liking for all arts.


 
That sounds cool.  As you teach the various arts, is there one in particular that gets them going or do you sort of just mix it in and don't really tell the origins?  

We teach the kids basic sparring stances for competition more than anything else.  When I work combos witht he older group I get them going in a boxer's stance (both sides).  



			
				Tez3 said:
			
		

> My instructor has done Shotokan, I've done Wado and we both do TSD, all three are reasonably alike. We teach the Bunkai as we teach the katas, they put the Bunkai into their self defence training too.
> 
> I attend as many of Iain Abernethy's seminars as I can as well as using his books and DVDs. he's very good if you want to know anything or need advice on techniques etc. A very nice man as well as being a scary one.


 
I have heard a lot of good things about him.

Overall it sounds like you have a very interesting and intense program going with your club.  My condolence on you loss.  My take is that you keep on with the class, because if he had the passion for it, he would have wanted it to keep flourishing.  Many respect and blessings to all your serving students and their families.


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## Tez3 (Nov 17, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> That sounds cool. As you teach the various arts, is there one in particular that gets them going or do you sort of just mix it in and don't really tell the origins?
> 
> We teach the kids basic sparring stances for competition more than anything else. When I work combos witht he older group I get them going in a boxer's stance (both sides).
> 
> ...


 

Thank you, it's very much appreciated.

When we show the children different things we tell them where it comes from, they are keeping folders at the moment for their gradings and they have to look up all the different styles they can, we teach them to count in Japanese and Korean too. For gradings they follow the TSD syllabus but we teach them as much as we can from other arts we've done. It's one of the reasons I haunt the different sections here so I can tell them more. The other thing we do is allow the children from other styles when they join us to keep their grades, it's demoralising for them if they lose their grades everytime they move, they have enough with moving houses, schools etc.

The kids like the grappling and throws in Judo, they love doing weapons too, Jo and Nunchukus (and foam swords! I caught the MMA fighters with them once playing 'sword fight' with them, they had a great time lol)) We tie the Judo in with the throws found in the katas. The TSD kata are very similiar to the Shotokan and Wado ones so the Bunkai is near enough the same. 

Iain is very good, have a look at his site and his forum, plenty of TKD people already there.


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## ETinCYQX (Nov 17, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> Thank you, it's very much appreciated.
> 
> When we show the children different things we tell them where it comes from, they are keeping folders at the moment for their gradings and they have to look up all the different styles they can, we teach them to count in Japanese and Korean too. For gradings they follow the TSD syllabus but we teach them as much as we can from other arts we've done. It's one of the reasons I haunt the different sections here so I can tell them more. The other thing we do is allow the children from other styles when they join us to keep their grades, it's demoralising for them if they lose their grades everytime they move, they have enough with moving houses, schools etc.
> 
> ...


 
I really like this idea. Sounds like a fantastic school, Tez. One question, though, when your students acheive black belt, are they considered a Tang Soo Do black belt?


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## ralphmcpherson (Nov 17, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> So instead of asking what they are doing you just assume that is all they have to offere and you would turn around and walk out?   Let's say you are someone who only likes sparring and you walk into a school that is just doing kata at the time you walk in, would you just turn around and walk out with that same mindset?
> 
> Besides no one said you HAD to do the creative stuff.  It is an EXTRA program that a school offers, not the core program itself.


Yes I would walk out. I am a very busy person and dont get to train nearly as much as I would like, so when I do train I want to be doing stuff that is self defence related. Every minute I spend doing forms to music is another minute that Im not doing practical martial arts training. Maybe if MA was my full time job and I had 40 hours a week to put into it Id give stuff like that a go but unfortunately time is limited so I want quality training while in the dojang. So yes, if I walked into a dojang and they were doing forms to music I would look elsewhere as Im sure others in my predicament would do also.


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## Tez3 (Nov 18, 2010)

ETinCYQX said:


> I really like this idea. Sounds like a fantastic school, Tez. One question, though, when your students acheive black belt, are they considered a Tang Soo Do black belt?


 

Sadly no one stays long enough to gain black belt but if they did it would be TSD as they follow the whole syllabus and have to do that for grading. The average time children spend with us is three years and we wouldn't have any black belts under 18 anyway.


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