# Never Trust Anyone That Hasn't Been Punched in the Face



## SahBumNimRush (Dec 15, 2011)

I have to say I agree with this article on some level.. . 

http://takimag.com/article/never_trust_anyone_who_hasnt_been_punched_in_the_face/print#axzz1gXVe9Nm2


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Dec 15, 2011)

I think it's crap.


----------



## SahBumNimRush (Dec 15, 2011)

Having read many of your posts in the past Mr. Mattocks, do I detect a bit of sarcasm in that statement?


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Dec 15, 2011)

SahBumNimRush said:


> Having read many of your posts in the past Mr. Mattocks, do I detect a bit of sarcasm in that statement?



I don't think so.  I really disliked it.  I think it's wrong on so many levels, I have trouble even knowing where to start.


----------



## SahBumNimRush (Dec 15, 2011)

While I don't think you should thrust yourself into "life or death" situations to make yourself a better person, I find it hard to trust anyone that is so afraid of physical confrontation, "that he's willing to hand his pants over in the street."  


​


----------



## WC_lun (Dec 15, 2011)

I couldn't make through the entire article.  There was so much that was just garbage, that I didn't even get to any face punching comments.


----------



## SahBumNimRush (Dec 15, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I don't think so.  I really disliked it.  I think it's wrong on so many levels, I have trouble even knowing where to start.





Fair enough.

While I would have used a different narrative if I had wrote it, there are things that seem to ring true.  "Lack of contact with objective reality," for instance.  

Could this, in fact, be a contributing factor to many of the senseless, and dare I say it, cowardly violence these days?  



"Men who have been in fights know that, on some level, words are just words: At some point, words must be backed up by deeds."  


While, I don't think that barbaric acts of violence are necessarily the only way to gain this experience, I believe that some sort of physical challenge does help.  How do you know you can back up your words by deeds, if you've never had to on some level before?

​


----------



## SahBumNimRush (Dec 15, 2011)

While I agree the authors choice of words is nothing short of inflammatory, I still think there merit in the underlying message.


"I think there is a certain worldview that comes from violent experience.  It&#8217;s something like&#8230;manhood. You don&#8217;t have to be the world&#8217;s greatest  badass to be a man, but you have to be willing to throw down when the  time is right." 
​While there has to be a first time for everything, there is confidence to be had with experience.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Dec 15, 2011)

SahBumNimRush said:


> While I don't think you should thrust yourself into "life or death" situations to make yourself a better person, I find it hard to trust anyone that is so afraid of physical confrontation, "that he's willing to hand his pants over in the street."



I am not aware of the particular situation described.  However, self-defense puts life ahead of pants.  Macho ******** puts pants ahead of life.

I've been in a couple fights.  The take-away?  Try to avoid them.  If you have to fight, fight, and fight to win.  But 99% of all fights are avoidable if you don't wear your testicles like a badge of honor.

What that means applied to world economics, I have no idea.  I don't think the author does either.  Like I said, it's crap from start to finish, in my opinion.  Complete, blithering idiocy, chest-beating nonsense.  Anybody who has ever fought for their life knows something he doesn't.  Life is what matters.  Honor can suck my left whatever.


----------



## Steve (Dec 15, 2011)

I don't like being punched.  I grapple specifically so that I can avoid it!


----------



## SahBumNimRush (Dec 15, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I am not aware of the particular situation described.  However, self-defense puts life ahead of pants.  Macho ******** puts pants ahead of life.
> 
> I've been in a couple fights.  The take-away?  Try to avoid them.  If you have to fight, fight, and fight to win.  But 99% of all fights are avoidable if you don't wear your testicles like a badge of honor.
> 
> What that means applied to world economics, I have no idea.  I don't think the author does either.  Like I said, it's crap from start to finish, in my opinion.  Complete, blithering idiocy, chest-beating nonsense.  Anybody who has ever fought for their life knows something he doesn't.  Life is what matters.  Honor can suck my left whatever.



I agree 100% with avoiding unnecessary fights, and I suppose it is difficult for me to agree with this and still defend my stance.  

What I take away from this is that if you've never stood up for yourself, it's hard to be trustworthy.  Whether that equates to being physically bullied because you're an easy target (if the bullies know you never stand up for yourself) or being intimidated and not having the self-confidence to stand your position.

I believe there are safer and more effective ways to achieve this experience and confidence than "baseball bat duels" or "knife fights" (which are asinine ideas), I think that there is something to be said by "testing your mettle."


----------



## Steve (Dec 15, 2011)

In all seriousness, this article falls short in a couple of places, but I agree with what I believe is the central theme.  That is essentially the distinction referred to by Ghandi in the quote I've had in my signature for several months.  

The quote below goes on to say, "I do believe that, where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence....I would rather have India resort to arms in order to defend her honour than that she should, in a cowardly manner, become or remain a helpless witness to her own dishonour."  

He also said, "No matter how weak a person is in body, if it is a shame to flee, he will stand his ground and die at his post. This would be nonviolence and bravery. No matter how weak he is, he will use what strength he has in inflicting injury on his opponent, and die in the attempt. This is bravery, but not nonviolence. If, when his duty is to face danger, he flees, it is cowardice. In the first case, the man will have love or charity in him. In the second and third cases, there would be a dislike or distrust and fear."

The article isn't about picking fights.  It was, to me, simply trying to articulate that without the willingness to fight, there isn't actually a choice being made.  Where there isn't a capacity for violence, we're simply being cowards.  Gandhi believed that violent men can hope to become non-violent, but a coward will always act from fear.


----------



## SahBumNimRush (Dec 15, 2011)

Men who have been tested"...  

There is not much of a "test"  anymore.There is no rite of passage to be a man, no ritual that  leaves a mark and shows an effort was made to attain it.  Self worth  used to come from accomplishing something, yet, these days it seems that self-worth comes from merely existing.

When everybody gets a trophy.. . everyone loses.


----------



## SahBumNimRush (Dec 15, 2011)

Steve said:


> In all seriousness, this article falls short in a couple of places, but I agree with what I believe is the central theme.  That is essentially the distinction referred to by Ghandi in the quote I've had in my signature for several months.
> 
> The quote below goes on to say, "I do believe that, where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence....I would rather have India resort to arms in order to defend her honour than that she should, in a cowardly manner, become or remain a helpless witness to her own dishonour."
> 
> ...



Couldn't find the "Thank You" button, so here it is:  Thank you, haha!  

Whether this was the author's intent, this was the same theme I took away from the article.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Dec 15, 2011)

Steve said:


> If, when his *duty* is to face danger, he flees, it is cowardice.



Yes.  When it is his duty.  Being called out on the street, or having one's momma insulted, does not imply a duty.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Dec 15, 2011)

SahBumNimRush said:


> Men who have been tested"...
> 
> There is not much of a "test"  anymore.There is no rite of passage to be a man, no ritual that  leaves a mark and shows an effort was made to attain it.  Self worth  used to come from accomplishing something, yet, these days it seems that self-worth comes from merely existing.
> 
> When everybody gets a trophy.. . everyone loses.



I'm a US Marine.  Don't have to prove a thing, to anyone, ever again.  And what I had to prove, I only had to prove to myself.  My self-worth does indeed come from my accomplishments, but that is internal.  The world did not test me, I tested me.  And the world can take a flying leap if they have a problem with me.  I never had to prove anything to the tribe.


----------



## SahBumNimRush (Dec 15, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Yes.  When it is his duty.  Being called out on the street, or having one's momma insulted, does not imply a duty.





Being called out or a "Yo Mamma" insult is unquestionably not worth it.  But a broader topic, what about the rise in incident of child suicide as a result of bullying?  I'm not suggesting that physical violence is the appropriate solution, but if the person was too scared to stand up for themselves it certainly devalues their own self worth.


----------



## SahBumNimRush (Dec 15, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I'm a US Marine.  Don't have to prove a thing, to anyone, ever again.  And what I had to prove, I only had to prove to myself.  My self-worth does indeed come from my accomplishments, but that is internal.  The world did not test me, I tested me.  And the world can take a flying leap if they have a problem with me.  I never had to prove anything to the tribe.



That is very well put Bill, but the point is you were tested.  I think everyone needs to be, and if you aren't going to test yourself, someone who cares about you should somehow encourage it.


----------



## SahBumNimRush (Dec 15, 2011)

That's the great thing about martial arts.  It forces you to test yourself, you aren't judged by the abilities of others.  You are judged by your potential and how much you are realizing it.  You gain self-confidence, self-discipline, self-control, and self-esteem.  These four character attributes enable you to best choose when the appropriate time is to act on physical self-defense and have the mental fortitude to do so.


----------



## Steve (Dec 15, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Yes.  When it is his duty.  Being called out on the street, or having one's momma insulted, does not imply a duty.


And often, the truth of the situation is known only to the person in question.  If I'm called out on the street and avoid confrontation out of fear, I'm a coward. 

The gist of what I'm getting at is that a person who has the capacity and will to do what must be done will avoid violence when possible and act with violence when necessary.  Or, since I'm in the mood to use more quotes, "If somebody gets in your face and calls you a ***, I want you to be nice. Ask him to walk. Be nice. If he won't walk, walk him. But be nice. If you can't walk him, one of the others will help you, and you'll both be nice. I want you to remember that it's a job. It's nothing personal. I want you to be nice until it's time to not be nice."  Dalton from Road House


----------



## Flying Crane (Dec 15, 2011)

It's an unreadable article, tho I caught the part where he blames the fall of civilization on vegetarianism. Not manly enough.


----------



## jedtx88 (Dec 16, 2011)

So in theory if I ran around punching people in the face the world would be a better place?


----------



## Blindside (Dec 16, 2011)

Well clearly you would then have more reason to trust those people....


----------



## Cyriacus (Dec 16, 2011)

jedtx88 said:


> So in theory if I ran around punching people in the face the world would be a better place?


Time for Me to make a horrible joke.
Here goes.
...You mean when They Arrest You for Assault?

Now to quickly answer the OP.
People are Violent. The Article states the Obvious.
I cant say I agree with all of it, and it seems quite unnecessary to Me.


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 16, 2011)

What a complete load of bollocks that article is. From the first paragraph where he can't make his point without name calling and insults all the way through. Calling a *child* a 'shrimp' because he had to hand over his trousers to a violent *mob*, well I'm seriously betting the writer wouldn't have done the same. All this article shows is a self indulgent spoilt brat whining about life as he sees it, so change your life sunshine ...  oh and shut up.


----------



## SahBumNimRush (Dec 16, 2011)

While the author clearly takes a chest beating, Neanderthal-like, chauvinistic view point, and advocates "masculinity" in the form of violence (none of which, I support), I think the take home message is integrity and accountability.  Having the fortitude to do what the given situation calls for.  Standing up to bullies, doing what's right against the odds, standing your ground when you're right, admitting your defeat when you're wrong.

I would argue that these traits have less to do with making you a "real man" as much it does making you a "man of integrity."  The term "Real man" can come off as macho.. .

But how does one foster this type of integrity?  Solely intellectual study?  Or does there have to be a physical component?  If it does warrant a physical component, what would you all suggest that it be?


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 16, 2011)

Integrity is a personal virtue, nothing to do with physical, otherwise you are saying only fit non disabled people can act with integrity.


----------



## SahBumNimRush (Dec 16, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> Integrity is a personal virtue, nothing to do with physical, otherwise you are saying only fit non disabled people can act with integrity.



Certainly there is no one road that gets everyone to the same destination.  However, I believe that physical training, in some capacity, can facilitate and foster integrity when given support and parameters.  

A great deal of things sound good in theory, but when it comes to practical application one needs the integrity to do what is right.  Whether that be standing up when you are right or admitting defeat when you are wrong.  Zen teaching, for example, reinforces the idea that teaching by speaking or showing is not nearly as effective as experiencing.  If your only experience of reality is in your mind, then it's not really "objective reality," it's subjective.  

To use your example, if a disabled person, were never presented with a situation that tested their integrity, whether it be physical or mental, then how would they know IF they truly had integrity?  It is the "testing of mettle," that gives you the confidence to do what's right.  

However, I do believe that regardless of "fitness," as long as you can be challenged physically, it can reinforce your integrity.  Look at how many disabled persons participate in martial arts.  I would not suggest that they are not being challenged physically.  While they are certainly gaining personal growth through the mental aspect of martial training, I would argue that it is the combination of physical and mental challenge that is the best way to achieve those results.


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 16, 2011)

SahBumNimRush said:


> Certainly there is no one road that gets everyone to the same destination. However, I believe that physical training, in some capacity, can facilitate and foster integrity when given support and parameters.
> 
> A great deal of things sound good in theory, but when it comes to practical application one needs the integrity to do what is right. Whether that be standing up when you are right or admitting defeat when you are wrong. Zen teaching, for example, reinforces the idea that teaching by speaking or showing is not nearly as effective as experiencing. If your only experience of reality is in your mind, then it's not really "objective reality," it's subjective.
> 
> ...



I think you should explain what integrity means to you because I'm really not sure we are talking about the same thing. Integrity is being honest, acting in a manner that is open, not being underhand, acting with honour. I'm not sure what you mean about being challenged physically etc giving you integrity, it doesn't, you can stand up for yourself, be brave and still be the biggest piece of dog's poo going. Testing your mettle isn't testing your integrity. #this is something different. You have integrity or you don't, it's having an honest nature. Testing it? That would be finding a wallet stuffed with banknotes on the street, hand it in or keep it? Given the wrong change in a shop, handing back the extra or not?


----------



## punisher73 (Dec 16, 2011)

Tried to read the article and couldn't make it through.  He seemed to be pulling at straws from different bits of research from sociology and tried to put them all together.

About the only thing I would agree with is that in the US, a young male can go through his life without ever knowing if he is a coward or not because we do not have a set rite of passage to pass from child to man like many cultures do that challenge you in this fashion.  This has been talked about in sociology circles before.  Not sure it has any implications beyond that.  To blame the perceived downfall or downward slope we are on to this is tenuous at best.


----------



## Flying Crane (Dec 16, 2011)

jedtx88 said:


> So in theory if I ran around punching people in the face the world would be a better place?



no, you need to run around and get other people to punch you in the face.  Then people could trust you and the world would be a better place.


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 16, 2011)

punisher73 said:


> Tried to read the article and couldn't make it through. He seemed to be pulling at straws from different bits of research from sociology and tried to put them all together.
> 
> About the only thing I would agree with is that in the US, a young male can go through his life without ever knowing if he is a coward or not because we do not have a set rite of passage to pass from child to man like many cultures do that challenge you in this fashion. This has been talked about in sociology circles before. Not sure it has any implications beyond that. To blame the perceived downfall or downward slope we are on to this is tenuous at best.



I don't think you can classify cowardice so easily, if you run away from a mob that makes you sensible, if you start a fight when you shouldn't that makes you an idiot however most people have it in them to be brave, often heroic deeds aren't thought about, they are spur of the moment things. Rescuing someone from a burning building may be perceived as the act of a brave person but that same person could be cheating on their partner and not be brave enough to face up to it and sort it out.


----------



## oaktree (Dec 16, 2011)

I saved myself the trouble and punch my own face making me trust myself on a level that words can never express. :s463:


----------



## SahBumNimRush (Dec 16, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> I think you should explain what integrity means to you because I'm really not sure we are talking about the same thing. Integrity is being honest, acting in a manner that is open, not being underhand, acting with honour. I'm not sure what you mean about being challenged physically etc giving you integrity, it doesn't, you can stand up for yourself, be brave and still be the biggest piece of dog's poo going. Testing your mettle isn't testing your integrity. #this is something different. You have integrity or you don't, it's having an honest nature. Testing it? That would be finding a wallet stuffed with banknotes on the street, hand it in or keep it? Given the wrong change in a shop, handing back the extra or not?



Law professor, Stephen Carter states that integrity is not only a refusal to engage in behavior that evades responsibility, but also as an understanding of different modes or styles in which discourse attempts to uncover a particular truth.  Carter writes that integrity requires three steps: "_discerning_ what is right and what is wrong; _acting_ on what you have discerned, even at personal cost; and _saying openly_ that you are acting on your understanding of right from wrong." He regards integrity as being distinct from honesty.  

So while integrity is a "personal virtue," it's not so black and white that you either have it or you do not.  Knowing right from wrong is pretty clear, but _acting_ on what you have discerned takes more than mere integrity, it takes fortitude, bravery, etc.. . and for that matter, to some extent, so does openly defending your actions in the face of adversity.  This is something that becomes easier with experience.  Demonstrating integrity in a situation that does not require a physical challenge, may be easier, than acting in a situation that has consequences of physical harm.  Whether that is in a sport and a self-defense situation.  For example, an American football quarter back that consistently grounds the ball because he fears getting sacked.. .  He knows what is right, and he may wish to act on it, but fear has overcome his ability to act on what is right.  If he has never been hit previously, it may be difficult to overcome this fear.  However, once he's been hit, he may realize that the physical consequences of not keeping the ball do not outweigh his choice of acting for what he believes to be right.  

So, while this does not change his ability to discern right from wrong, physical experience gives him more confidence to _act_ on that knowledge.


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 16, 2011)

SahBumNimRush said:


> Law professor, Stephen Carter states that integrity is not only a refusal to engage in behavior that evades responsibility, but also as an understanding of different modes or styles in which discourse attempts to uncover a particular truth. Carter writes that integrity requires three steps: "_discerning_ what is right and what is wrong; _acting_ on what you have discerned, even at personal cost; and _saying openly_ that you are acting on your understanding of right from wrong." He regards integrity as being distinct from honesty.
> 
> So while integrity is a "personal virtue," it's not so black and white that you either have it or you do not. Knowing right from wrong is pretty clear, but _acting_ on what you have discerned takes more than mere integrity, it takes fortitude, bravery, etc.. . and for that matter, to some extent, so does openly defending your actions in the face of adversity. This is something that becomes easier with experience. Demonstrating integrity in a situation that does not require a physical challenge, may be easier, than acting in a situation that has consequences of physical harm. Whether that is in a sport and a self-defense situation. For example, an American football quarter back that consistently grounds the ball because he fears getting sacked.. . He knows what is right, and he may wish to act on it, but fear has overcome his ability to act on what is right. If he has never been hit previously, it may be difficult to overcome this fear. However, once he's been hit, he may realize that the physical consequences of not keeping the ball do not outweigh his choice of acting for what he believes to be right.
> 
> So, while this does not change his ability to discern right from wrong, physical experience gives him more confidence to _act_ on that knowledge.



Your definition is an American legal one and I have to disagree. Honesty and integrity are the same.


From the Oxford English Dictionary. 

1 the quality of being honest and having strong moral principles: _a gentleman of complete integrity
_


----------



## SahBumNimRush (Dec 16, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> Your definition is an American legal one and I have to disagree. Honesty and integrity are the same.
> 
> 
> From the Oxford English Dictionary.
> ...



To each their own, that is the conundrum of written and spoken word.  Everyone establishes their own interpretation/meaning of a word, based on experience and opinion.  I don't consider honesty and integrity to be the same thing, but I can see how someone consider them equal.  

If we are to use a "dictionary" definition, Merriam Webster defines integrity as: "firm adherence to a code of especially moral or artistic values *:* incorruptibility" 


To me, if you have integrity, it means that you live your life in a moral and  ethical way.  Honesty covers lying, but integrity encompasses everything else in life.
While doing a quick google search, to see what others think about honesty vs. truth, I came upon an explanation I thought I would share. 

"To be honest can simply mean to be truthful. A person can tell the  truth, and yet do all sorts of devious things underhand, whilst a person  with integrity will only do honest things. 

Also honesty can be used in a bad way to be abusive, blunt, cruel,  excessively critical, and as a pretext to undermine other people, which a  person with integrity will not do, as he or she will also have  a  strong notion of responsibility, whilst the "honest" person can be  totally irresponsible."


But I digress, this doesn't change my point, even though I seem to be failing at expressing it in a manner to which you understand. :duh:

Regardless, I think everyone who has commented on the thread is in agreement that the article is pretty crappy and inflammatory.  But I continue to say that if you clean all the b.s. off it, I find some glimmer of merit, which is that experiencing a situation where you do what you believe to be right, in the face of a physically challenging conflict, improves your ****  Insert whatever adjectives you believe apply, whether it be integrity, honesty, character, virtue, bravery, "real-manliness" lol, etc.. .  The more experience you have at doing so, the easier it becomes to act in such a manner.


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 16, 2011)

Oh please! Real manliness? C'mon that's just rubbish. I work with and have done for 40 years with the military here and they don't exude that sort of macho BS. They are men, they know it so don't have to crow or proclaim their manliness, I'm sorry but this sort of stuff just makes me laugh. 
Most people are fine, happy and honest without going off to tilt at windmills to affirm their maniliness or even their womanhood.


----------



## SahBumNimRush (Dec 16, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> Oh please! Real manliness? C'mon that's just rubbish. I work with and have done for 40 years with the military here and they don't exude that sort of macho BS. They are men, they know it so don't have to crow or proclaim their manliness, I'm sorry but this sort of stuff just makes me laugh.
> Most people are fine, happy and honest without going off to tilt at windmills to affirm their maniliness or even their womanhood.



HAHA! that's why I put in quotes (with the lol even!), it was sarcastic jab at the macho stance the author was spouting.  

&#8220;If a man were truly brave he wouldn't have to be always proving it to himself.&#8221; -James Jones


----------



## SahBumNimRush (Dec 16, 2011)

SahBumNimRush said:


> Regardless, I think everyone who has commented on the thread is in agreement that the article is pretty crappy and inflammatory.  But I continue to say that if you clean all the b.s. off it, I find some glimmer of merit, which is that experiencing a situation where you do what you believe to be right, in the face of a physically challenging conflict, improves your ****  Insert whatever adjectives you believe apply, whether it be integrity, honesty, character, virtue, bravery, "real-manliness" lol ***SARCASM***, etc.. .  The more experience you have at doing so, the easier it becomes to act in such a manner.



For example, we have had children in our martial arts classes who had been bullied prior to starting their martial arts training.  How many of you have had similar children in your training halls?  Why did they come in?  What were the outcomes?  Were they still bullied after they had been in class for a while?  If not why?

Same could be said for adults from abusive relationships.. .

How does experiencing a physical challenge in a controlled environment (i.e. the class setting), empower you to face similar physical challenges in the real world?  

It doesn't necessitate chest beating, macho-ism, or even beating the crap out of bullies.. . But it can build the confidence to *act* on what you feel is right, which builds character, self-worth, self-esteem, confidence, etc.. .


----------



## Josh Oakley (Dec 16, 2011)

Wow. That was a painful article to read. It feels like I was punched _right in the face_ by the sheer veracity of those words!


Seriously, the viewpoint is just asinine. An untrustworthy person who gets punched in the face does not become a trustworthy person. There are quite a lot of people I know who have been punched in the face that I do not trust at ALL.


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 16, 2011)

SahBumNimRush said:


> HAHA! that's why I put in quotes (with the lol even!), it was sarcastic jab at the macho stance the author was spouting.
> 
> &#8220;If a man were truly brave he wouldn't have to be always proving it to himself.&#8221; -James Jones



You have to type it in the sarcasm font.


----------



## granfire (Dec 16, 2011)

But I do have to agree....vegetarianism is bad for society...
I am running into way too many people who lost touch with reality and how brutal it can be. Rainbows and butterflies...nothing ever has to die....


----------



## Indagator (Dec 16, 2011)

I believe that there are some valid points behind what the author of the article is attempting to articulate, however it sounds like he is too immature to understand or comprehend them himself and therefore cannot truly express the points he has encountered.

So while I agree, in principle, with some of the truth that lies behind the overall message he is attempting to explain, I disagree with the article as it stands.


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 17, 2011)

granfire said:


> *But I do have to agree....vegetarianism is bad for society...
> *I am running into way too many people who lost touch with reality and how brutal it can be. Rainbows and butterflies...nothing ever has to die....




It's the flatulence veggies have that will do for the world...


----------



## SahBumNimRush (Dec 17, 2011)

Reminds me of the sleep talking man, and his alter ego's hatred of vegetarians.. .

http://www.sleeptalkinman.blogspot.com/



"It's CHICKEN and you LIKE IT. Lentil-loving, bean burger-******** wanker." 

"Vegetarians will be the first to go. That's my plan. Vegans haven't got a hope. 'I eat air, I'm so healthy...' Bollocks!"

"Put it down! Step away from the yam. Step away!"

"Fluffy bunny + twitchy nose + big ears = great stew."


----------



## punisher73 (Dec 19, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> I don't think you can classify cowardice so easily, if you run away from a mob that makes you sensible, if you start a fight when you shouldn't that makes you an idiot however most people have it in them to be brave, often heroic deeds aren't thought about, they are spur of the moment things. Rescuing someone from a burning building may be perceived as the act of a brave person but that same person could be cheating on their partner and not be brave enough to face up to it and sort it out.



Notice I didn't define "cowardice".  In the context of the article and the sociological research it is more about standing up to a physical challenge in the form of a rite of passage.  There are some that cite mandatory military service and the basic training of such as a rite of passage.  Most young men in the US military challenge themselves and go through this.  The examples you gave and things that the VAST majority of young men will never have to encounter, thus again why it was stated that a young US male can go through his life and never know if he is a coward or not.


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 19, 2011)

punisher73 said:


> Notice I didn't define "cowardice". In the context of the article and the sociological research it is more about standing up to a physical challenge in the form of a rite of passage. There are some that cite mandatory military service and the basic training of such as a rite of passage. Most young men in the US military challenge themselves and go through this. The examples you gave and things that the VAST majority of young men will never have to encounter, thus again why it was stated that a young US male can go through his life and never know if he is a coward or not.



I don't think however facing up to a physical situation defines courage, it can take huge courage to tell your parents you are gay, or that you are beng bullied for example. It can take huge courage to resist peer pressure to do something wrong. Physical courage is actually relatively easy, moral courage is a far bigger and probably better thing. I don't believe young men have to join the military to be considered 'brave', challenging yourself is being competitive rather than being brave.


----------



## punisher73 (Dec 19, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> I don't think however facing up to a physical situation defines courage, it can take huge courage to tell your parents you are gay, or that you are beng bullied for example. It can take huge courage to resist peer pressure to do something wrong. Physical courage is actually relatively easy, moral courage is a far bigger and probably better thing. I don't believe young men have to join the military to be considered 'brave', challenging yourself is being competitive rather than being brave.



Yep, we are in agreement on that moral courage can be harder than physical.  Not the point of a "rite of passage" though.

 My whole point was that for young men in the US, there is nothing that says "you are a man now".  Many societies have a rite of passage that challenges them and afterwards their society looks on them as a man.  There is nothing like that for young men in the US, that is why so many try to find challenges and "prove" to themselves or others that they are a man.  In speaking with women, I have not come across that same type of drive or need (in the US) to go through something so people will start "treating them like a woman" (could be wrong, obviously it is a small sample size to draw from).


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 19, 2011)

punisher73 said:


> Yep, we are in agreement on that moral courage can be harder than physical. Not the point of a "rite of passage" though.
> 
> My whole point was that for young men in the US, there is nothing that says "you are a man now". Many societies have a rite of passage that challenges them and afterwards their society looks on them as a man. There is nothing like that for young men in the US, that is why so many try to find challenges and "prove" to themselves or others that they are a man. In speaking with women, I have not come across that same type of drive or need (in the US) to go through something so people will start "treating them like a woman" (could be wrong, obviously it is a small sample size to draw from).




Why do you need a rite of passage? And why does it have to involve violence? Don't you feel like men? If not that's more to do with general society rather than any lack of rite of passage. I don't know any other men from here, Europe or Asia that feels they aren't me or need a rite of passage to say they are.
This is usually good enough for guys here.
http://www.kipling.org.uk/poems_if.htm


----------



## SahBumNimRush (Dec 19, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> Why do you need a rite of passage? http://www.kipling.org.uk/poems_if.htm



That is a good question.  Why do societies ritualize something?  Why are there rituals for births, deaths, marriages, promotions, birthdays, etc.. .  It illustrates what values/beliefs are of high importance within a particular society, and marks a person's progress from one status to another. 

Why was it once important to acknowledge a boy becoming a man through ritual, but not important now?  Why do people still celebrate girls' sweet sixteens or quinceaneras?  Religions tend to maintain rituals, so I can understand how coming of age rituals like Bar and Bat Mitzvahs continue.  But I'm curious why certain cultural/societal coming of age rituals have been maintained and others have been forgotten.

In a MA context, look at the earning of your BB.  I would gather that your BB certificate is more ornate or bigger than the others.  Much more responsibility comes with wearing the BB too.  Do any of you have different rituals for the BB ceremony vs. colored rank?  In my mind, the BB is a "rite of passage" so to speak in itself.

I wouldn't suggest that your BB test is necessarily "violent," but you do have to show that you have "earned" the right to wear a BB; both mentally and physically.  

I would think there would still be some merit in youth "earning" the right to be an adult.


----------



## punisher73 (Dec 19, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> Why do you need a rite of passage? And why does it have to involve violence? Don't you feel like men? If not that's more to do with general society rather than any lack of rite of passage. I don't know any other men from here, Europe or Asia that feels they aren't men or need a rite of passage to say they are.
> This is usually good enough for guys here.
> http://www.kipling.org.uk/poems_if.htm



Who said anything about the rite of passage involving violence?  Many involve the young man going out on his own in the wilderness to depend on himself and what he has learned to complete a quest/challenge.  Reread what I wrote again, I said "many" young men feel a need to prove themself.  Not all.  

You cited a man who tried to live his whole life a a rite of passage and came from a time when young men were challenged into adulthood.  You are heavily involved in MMA, read the psychology of many of those fighters and you find lack of a male figure to guide them into adulthood and they are now fighting to prove themselves to their own self and others.  You don't have to agree with it, it is just a fact of the male ego.


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 19, 2011)

punisher73 said:


> Who said anything about the rite of passage involving violence? Many involve the young man going out on his own in the wilderness to depend on himself and what he has learned to complete a quest/challenge. Reread what I wrote again, I said "many" young men feel a need to prove themself. Not all.
> 
> You cited a man who tried to live his whole life a a rite of passage and came from a time when young men were challenged into adulthood. You are heavily involved in MMA, read the psychology of many of those fighters and you find lack of a male figure to guide them into adulthood and they are now fighting to prove themselves to their own self and others. You don't have to agree with it, it is just a fact of the male ego.



Now that's a big a piece of codswallop as I've heard for a long time lol. So, all male fighters are the product of single mothers? hardly, you forget I think that MMA fighters are martial arts who want to compete and see if their martial arts work. They are no different from any other martial artist just because they fight full contatc lol.

Sometimes you know a poem is just a poem espeically when you earn a living by writing and have bills to pay.


----------



## SahBumNimRush (Dec 19, 2011)

punisher73 said:


> You are heavily involved in MMA, read the psychology of many of those fighters and you find lack of a male figure to guide them into adulthood and they are now fighting to prove themselves to their own self and others.  You don't have to agree with it, it is just a fact of the male ego.



I'm not very knowledgeable about the MMA fighters these days, and you're assertion made me curious.  I did a quick search on the top 10 pound for pound UFC champions, and out of all weight classes, I only see one that has come from a broken home; the bantam weight champ Dominick Cruz.

While I would agree, that it can be a motivating factor for any athlete, I'm not sure it would apply any more to an MMA athlete vs any other sport.  Other motivating factors may include poverty, natural athletic talent, passion for the sport, etc.. .  However, I will say with certainty, the projected ego and lack of humility of many fighters that are publicized on television is huge, and not something that would last very long in a traditional setting.  That said, it's television, and certain sacrifices must be made in the name of ratings, I'm sure.  Since there are no MMA gyms near me, I have no experience or exposure to MMA fighters beyond TV, so I can't speak to the everyday MMA gym rat.  

But conscious or not, every competition (no matter the sport) feeds the ego.  It takes a man/woman with great humility to compete (and consistently win) in the spotlight and not become full of him/herself, and if no one has ever fostered that type of behavior, I could see how it may be easier to fall into the pattern of proving yourself to others or oneself.


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 19, 2011)

SahBumNimRush said:


> I'm not very knowledgeable about the MMA fighters these days, and you're assertion made me curious. I did a quick search on the top 10 pound for pound UFC champions, and out of all weight classes, I only see one that has come from a broken home; the bantam weight champ Dominick Cruz.
> 
> While I would agree, that it can be a motivating factor for any athlete, I'm not sure it would apply any more to an MMA athlete vs any other sport. Other motivating factors may include poverty, natural athletic talent, passion for the sport, etc.. . However, I will say with certainty, the projected ego and lack of humility of many fighters that are publicized on television is huge, and not something that would last very long in a traditional setting. That said, it's television, and certain sacrifices must be made in the name of ratings, I'm sure. Since there are no MMA gyms near me, I have no experience or exposure to MMA fighters beyond TV, so I can't speak to the everyday MMA gym rat.
> 
> But conscious or not, every competition (no matter the sport) feeds the ego. It takes a man/woman with great humility to compete (and consistently win) in the spotlight and not become full of him/herself, and if no one has ever fostered that type of behavior, I could see how it may be easier to fall into the pattern of proving yourself to others or oneself.



MMA gym rat? I assume you aren't trying to be insulting? Would you call a karateka or TKDist a gym rat, I doubt it so please don't be that rude about MMAers who are no less martial artists.

Firstly I suggest you open your mind and forget what you see on television. The fighters you see on the UFC etc are professional athletes, the same as the pro boxers, the pro skiers, the pro track and field athletes and the pro tennis players which means they are also part entertainer, part business person. They have to seek publicity and perform as there employers wish. It's their living.
MMA gyms and clubs are full of people pursuing martial arts, they train the same as any other martial artist, they aren't professionals they compete as TKDists and karateka do, they rarely get paid, if they do it's expenses. They do it as a sport, a hobby, they train a couple of times a week. If you look at records they lose and win, for most while it's good to win it really is all about taking part, fighters enjoy the fight... (not for nothing is it called physical )chess, the thinking it takes to outwit your opponent then having a drink with him in the bar after, the craic, the cameraderie of the team etc, they'll only fight two or three times a year. It's a total thing, they aren't out to prove anything just have a good night. Egos aren't encouraged and your team mates soon bring you down to ground. It really isn't anything like you imagine. Honestly, MMA gym rats...I find that actually upsetting. Try martial artists and everyday bog standard British blokes who do martial arts.


----------



## SahBumNimRush (Dec 19, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> MMA gym rat? I assume you aren't trying to be insulting? Would you call a karateka or TKDist a gym rat, I doubt it so please don't be that rude about MMAers who are no less martial artists.
> 
> Firstly I suggest you open your mind and forget what you see on television. The fighters you see on the UFC etc are professional athletes, the same as the pro boxers, the pro skiers, the pro track and field athletes and the pro tennis players which means they are also part entertainer, part business person. They have to seek publicity and perform as there employers wish. It's their living.
> MMA gyms and clubs are full of people pursuing martial arts, they train the same as any other martial artist, they aren't professionals they compete as TKDists and karateka do, they rarely get paid, if they do it's expenses. They do it as a sport, a hobby, they train a couple of times a week. If you look at records they lose and win, for most while it's good to win it really is all about taking part, fighters enjoy the fight... (not for nothing is it called physical )chess, the thinking it takes to outwit your opponent then having a drink with him in the bar after, the craic, the cameraderie of the team etc, they'll only fight two or three times a year. It's a total thing, they aren't out to prove anything just have a good night. Egos aren't encouraged and your team mates soon bring you down to ground. It really isn't anything like you imagine. Honestly, MMA gym rats...I find that actually upsetting. Try martial artists and everyday bog standard British blokes who do martial arts.



Don't get your panties in a bunch Tez   Gym rat is a common term over here for someone who "lives" in the gym.  Unless you see spending a lot of time at a gym an insult, then I was making no derogatory comment.  

I'm not sure why you are suggesting that I am closed minded, since I am only commenting on what I have experienced.  There are no gyms in my area, so I am as "open" as possibly can be.  While many sports' athletes carry a stigma as "less-than-ideal role models," right now the UFC carries such a stigma.  Look at the rape "jokes" that have sent Miguel Torres packing got Forest Griffin scolded.  Many peoples' only knowledge of sports' athletes are what are portrayed on television, which, while it does not represent all athletes of the sport, those said athletes are representing the sport.  Basketball and American football are also littered with "less-than-ideal" role models for athletes, but I wouldn't say that "pro skiers, pro track and field athletes, or pro tennis players (with maybe the exception of John Macenroe) have that same stigma.   

I also stated that I could not comment as to what is seen on television represent the everyday athlete or the sport as a whole.  Nothing I stated above was attacking, derogatory or "close minded" towards MMA, I have friends across the U.S. who train and compete in those types of competitions, and I have the utmost respect for them.  If you re-read my post, you would see that I was arguing that to the contrary of Punisher's comment, only one of the weight class champions lacked a male role model or had a colorful past.


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 19, 2011)

SahBumNimRush said:


> Don't get your panties in a bunch Tez  Gym rat is a common term over here for someone who "lives" in the gym. Unless you see spending a lot of time at a gym an insult, then I was making no derogatory comment.
> 
> I'm not sure why you are suggesting that I am closed minded, since I am only commenting on what I have experienced. There are no gyms in my area, so I am as "open" as possibly can be. While many sports' athletes carry a stigma as "less-than-ideal role models," right now the UFC carries such a stigma. Look at the rape "jokes" that have sent Miguel Torres packing got Forest Griffin scolded. Many peoples' only knowledge of sports' athletes are what are portrayed on television, which, while it does not represent all athletes of the sport, those said athletes are representing the sport. Basketball and American football are also littered with "less-than-ideal" role models for athletes, but I wouldn't say that "pro skiers, pro track and field athletes, or pro tennis players (with maybe the exception of John Macenroe) have that same stigma.
> 
> I also stated that I could not comment as to what is seen on television represent the everyday athlete or the sport as a whole. Nothing I stated above was attacking, derogatory or "close minded" towards MMA, I have friends across the U.S. who train and compete in those types of competitions, and I have the utmost respect for them. If you re-read my post, you would see that I was arguing that to the contrary of Punisher's comment, only one of the weight class champions lacked a male role model or had a colorful past.




Calling someone a rat here will get you a bunch of fives, it's not a friendly term at all not even in jest. We don't use the word panties either, that's a sleazy word used in porn films, 'knickers' would be better. 
I get really really tired of saying the UFC isn't MMA, it's a business, one promotion among many, it's a big one but it's not MMA. You can't judge MMA by the UFC, it's the same as judging TKD solely by watching Olympic TKD or Olympic wrestling by watching WWE. The UFC isn't 'all that' as you'd say, over here, it actually failed in Germany, we have our own promotions and we love them. I don't know anything about 'rape' jokes as I don't have a huge interest in what goes on in the UFC. I don't see a stigma attached to fighters over here, for example Rosi Sexton is often on the media talking about it, Alex Reid certainly doesn't met any expections of being the macho man. 

Pro track athletes here however have a reputation for performance enhancing drug taking as do pro cyclists.


----------



## SahBumNimRush (Dec 19, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> Calling someone a rat here will get you a bunch of fives, it's not a friendly term at all not even in jest. We don't use the word panties either, that's a sleazy word used in porn films, 'knickers' would be better.
> I get really really tired of saying the UFC isn't MMA, it's a business, one promotion among many, it's a big one but it's not MMA. You can't judge MMA by the UFC, it's the same as judging TKD solely by watching Olympic TKD or Olympic wrestling by watching WWE. The UFC isn't 'all that' as you'd say, over here, it actually failed in Germany, we have our own promotions and we love them. I don't know anything about 'rape' jokes as I don't have a huge interest in what goes on in the UFC. I don't see a stigma attached to fighters over here, for example Rosi Sexton is often on the media talking about it, Alex Reid certainly doesn't met any expections of being the macho man.
> 
> Pro track athletes here however have a reputation for performance enhancing drug taking as do pro cyclists.



And here we have yet another lesson in colloquialisms and the interpretation of language.. .

But all colloquialisms aside, I do find it interesting that popular MMA athletes in the UK don't seem to have the stigmas that many of the North and South American athletes do.

I wonder why that is?


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 20, 2011)

SahBumNimRush said:


> And here we have yet another lesson in colloquialisms and the interpretation of language.. .
> 
> But all colloquialisms aside, I do find it interesting that popular MMA athletes in the UK don't seem to have the stigmas that many of the North and South American athletes do.
> 
> I wonder why that is?



Money...we don't have any. There's little to no money in MMA here and we are a  very small sport, we all know each other, seriously, we do. We tend not to over hype anyone really in any sport. We have the world champions in quite a few sports but nobody really bothers, we don't do hype very well.


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 20, 2011)

Here's the UK's fighters.

http://www.thefightlounge.co.uk/uk-fighters-write-to-santa-shocker/


----------



## punisher73 (Dec 20, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> Now that's a big a piece of codswallop as I've heard for a long time lol. So, all male fighters are the product of single mothers? hardly, you forget I think that MMA fighters are martial arts who want to compete and see if their martial arts work. They are no different from any other martial artist just because they fight full contatc lol.
> 
> Sometimes you know a poem is just a poem espeically when you earn a living by writing and have bills to pay.



Reading comprehension isn't a strong suit.  I have not stated absolutes on here, but instead of looking at what is written you attack a small part of it in a strawman attempt to discredit it.  Read what I wrote.


> You are heavily involved in MMA, read the psychology of *many of those fighters *and you find lack of a male figure to guide them into adulthood and they are now fighting to prove themselves to their own self and others. You don't have to agree with it, it is just a fact of the male ego



I said, "many" of the fighters.  I didn't say "all" or even "most".  Watching shows and listening to interviews, there are alot that came from a background where the father was either absent or abusive.  Interestingly enough, the top players in the sport usually don't and fight for different reasons.  Maybe "many" means something different in your opinion, but I am using it as "more than a few".

As to the poem, you are the one that cited it as to what manhood was and I gave you the context of it's author.  Now, it's just a poem.  ok.  You can't understand male psychology and why SOME (as I keep stating) need a rite of passage anymore than I can say I understand childbirth.  Again, you don't have to agree with it, just recognize that it is a sociological fact.


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 20, 2011)

punisher73 said:


> Reading comprehension isn't a strong suit. I have not stated absolutes on here, but instead of looking at what is written you attack a small part of it in a strawman attempt to discredit it. Read what I wrote.
> 
> 
> I said, "many" of the fighters. I didn't say "all" or even "most". Watching shows and listening to interviews, there are alot that came from a background where the father was either absent or abusive. Interestingly enough, the top players in the sport usually don't and fight for different reasons. Maybe "many" means something different in your opinion, but I am using it as "more than a few".
> ...



Understand psychology? Well I don't do bad for someone who has a degree in it lol, you are attacking again btw. Ok you don't like my post but really, there's no need to be insulting. I guess you missed the *LOL* after my first sentence indicating it wasa tongue in cheek.


I take it you didn't read this...
"I'm not very knowledgeable about the MMA fighters these days, and you're assertion made me curious. I did a quick search on the top 10 pound for pound UFC champions, and out of all weight classes, I only see *one that has come from a broken home; the bantam weight champ Dominick Cruz."* posted by SahBumNimrush?

I've spent 40 years working with men who have never needed a rite of passge lol, perhaps our men still have their balls roflmao.
I have no idea what makes you think Rudyard Kipling was particularly interested in rites of passage. He wrote some very good stuff and some utter drivel, some of his writing is jingoistic and not popular, some like If, are very good. It talks of manly virtues not rites of passage.
I know this 'art of manliness' and 'reclaim masculinity' movement is popular in the states, it doesn't seem to have found a foothold here , our guys are too busy having a pint, a fight, a curry and a shag roflmao.


----------



## shihansmurf (Dec 20, 2011)

jedtx88 said:


> So in theory if I ran around punching people in the face the world would be a better place?



My Recruiting Office is in the mall here.  Given the way the crowds behave I think they could do with a bit of face punching.

Especially that guy with bell.....

I know its a good couse but he sits in front of the store right next to my office. 10 hours of that bell a day is starting to wear a bit.

:drinkbeer

Happy Holidays,

Mark


----------



## granfire (Dec 20, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> I know this 'art of manliness' and 'reclaim masculinity' movement is popular in the states, it doesn't seem to have found a foothold here , our guys are too busy having a pint, a fight, a curry and a shag roflmao.



It's hard to be a man when such plain things are on the index, you know. 

(I do beg, tho, do tell: what's a curry? The actual food or something in line with shagging?)


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 20, 2011)

granfire said:


> It's hard to be a man when such plain things are on the index, you know.
> 
> (I do beg, tho, do tell: what's a curry? The actual food or something in line with shagging?)



Curry from the Chinese takeaway or round here a Parmo one of the most vile concoctions to ever eaten by men.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parmo


----------



## granfire (Dec 20, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> Curry from the Chinese takeaway or round here a Parmo one of the most vile concoctions to ever eaten by men.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parmo




Ohhh....ENGLISH COOKING.....


nvm!

:angel:


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 20, 2011)

granfire said:


> Ohhh....ENGLISH COOKING.....
> 
> 
> nvm!
> ...



Actually it's not English it's Italian/American/Australian LOL!

_It's thought that the humble Parmo was created by Nicos Harris in 1958, at 'The American Grill' restaurant he owned on Linthorpe Road in Middlesbrough.__The original name for a Parmo was 'Escalope Parmesan' and was made from pork meat or chicken and is served both as a restaurant meal and a take-out snack, accompanied by chips and a choice of salad, coleslaw or creamed cabbage. The modern Teesside Parmo has similarities to veal or chicken Parmigiana which is commonly eaten in Australia .

http://www.bbc.co.uk/tees/content/articles/2005/09/09/parmo_feature.shtml_


----------

