# Staff training.



## Ironbear24 (Nov 18, 2016)

It is part of the curriculum at the place I been going to once you get into some higher colors. I just have no drive for it, no passion, but sadly there will come a point where it will be necessary to advance higher.

What makes you enjoy the staff? I might be able to get inspired here.


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## Tez3 (Nov 18, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> What makes you enjoy the staff



Hitting people with it.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 18, 2016)

I dont. I've messed around with it, and when I was in high school, my friends and I would goof around with it by sparing with each other...I enjoyed that. But the actual kata involved with it (which I'm guessing is the curriculum part you are learning), I just got through it so that I could advance and have since forgotten it. I suppose that would have to change if I ever taught...


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## Kickboxer101 (Nov 18, 2016)

There is a staff set in kenpo but in my place its not really a recruitment, you can learn it if you want to learn it but if you don't no ones going to fail you on it. To me weapon training is a waste of time for me. I'm not going to be carrying around a staff or a pair of nunchucks so ill never used them if I'm attacked so to me there's no interest. No disrespect to those who do train with weapons good on you it's a skill ill never have but yeah I don't want to learn how to use a big stick. I fully believe in martial arts being empty handed. Especially in kenpo in their creed "I come to you with only karate my empty hands" and the ending "then here are my weapons karate my empty hands" so it kind of contradicts itself by training weapons. But I think most schools don't bother with it that much and really only use it for competition.


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## Flying Crane (Nov 18, 2016)

kempodisciple said:


> I dont. I've messed around with it, and when I was in high school, my friends and I would goof around with it by sparing with each other...I enjoyed that. But the actual kata involved with it (which I'm guessing is the curriculum part you are learning), I just got through it so that I could advance and have since forgotten it. I suppose that would have to change if I ever taught...


Did you guys learn the two staff sets that are standard in most Parker and Tracy lineage kenpo?


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## Flying Crane (Nov 18, 2016)

Personally, I have found that my weapons training, including staff, has helped understand and develop my skill with the fundamental principles upon which my system is built.

Whether or not you think you will ever need to actually fight with the weapon is pretty irrelevant.  The real value is in the physical education that properly taught and properly understood and properly trained weapons practice gives you.  It translates very strongly into empty-hand capabilities.

Notice what I said there: properly, properly, properly.  That is really important. Otherwise, yes, it is a waste of time and you get very little from it.

And, not all weapons methods or forms/kata, are created equally.  Some of them are junk.  Again, a waste of time and likely to be uninspiring and will kill your enthusiasm for it.  Because often people can tell when they are learning something that is BS, even when they don't know much about it.


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 18, 2016)

Agree with Flying Crane.

Learning to project and control power with a Bo (in fact most non edged or projectile weapons) is instructive to empty handed work as well. I didn't believe that at first, but I do now. Walking through a Bo kata or a Sai kata with empty hands is eye opening.


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## Flying Crane (Nov 18, 2016)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Agree with Flying Crane.
> 
> Learning to project and control power with a Bo (in fact most non edged or projectile weapons) is instructive to empty handed work as well. I didn't believe that at first, but I do now. Walking through a Bo kata or a Sai kata with empty hands is eye opening.


I've found that it really emphasizes the full-body connection.  It is magnified in weapons practice,  and just makes empty hands stronger.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 18, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> Did you guys learn the two staff sets that are standard in most Parker and Tracy lineage kenpo?


Nope. One style of kenpo that I practiced did learn those, so I saw them, but I was only there for a year. It was Shaolin kempo where I learned a staff form, and I haven't seen it in other styles.


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## Flying Crane (Nov 18, 2016)

kempodisciple said:


> Nope. One style of kenpo that I practiced did learn those, so I saw them, but I was only there for a year. It was Shaolin kempo where I learned a staff form, and I haven't seen it in other styles.


Ok, I don't know anything about the shaolin kenpo stuff.  But the Parker/Tracy staff forms, I am not a fan of them.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 18, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> Ok, I don't know anything about the shaolin kenpo stuff.  But the Parker/Tracy staff forms, I am not a fan of them.


I've no idea if it's just a kenpo thing, but I'm not a fan of most of the weapons forms that I've seen/practiced. I get the idea that they can help you learn principles, but I don't understand the relation. Plus, I honestly just don't enjoy them. I like open-handed forms as I can practice them at home/work and mess around with them to practice principles. Can't really do that with most weapons.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 18, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> It is part of the curriculum at the place I been going to once you get into some higher colors. I just have no drive for it, no passion, but sadly there will come a point where it will be necessary to advance higher.
> 
> What makes you enjoy the staff? I might be able to get inspired here.


The staff is an awesome weapon.  It's one of those weapons where you can probably just give to your enemy to make them fight worse.  If you know how to use one then you can pretty much go to town on someone and beat them like a rug.  If you don't know how to use a staff then you are probably better off without it than with it as it will be cumbersome to use.
These guys don't know how to use one.  Don't be like these guys





Be like these guys





And definitely don't buy a staff like this guy and don't learn from him at all when it comes to staff lol.  





It's like a spear without the pointy end.  Just from your personality you aren't going to find any happiness in a flashy staff made out of light weight material or those flexible staffs like what you see Jake Mace use.  Get yourself a natural wax wood staff (not a thin one).


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 18, 2016)




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## Flying Crane (Nov 19, 2016)

kempodisciple said:


> I've no idea if it's just a kenpo thing, but I'm not a fan of most of the weapons forms that I've seen/practiced. I get the idea that they can help you learn principles, but I don't understand the relation. Plus, I honestly just don't enjoy them. I like open-handed forms as I can practice them at home/work and mess around with them to practice principles. Can't really do that with most weapons.


I completely understand where you are coming from.  The kenpo staff that I learned, I feel was poorly designed and is a waste of time.  The way it was taught to me did not make the deeper connections that it really needs, and what I have seen of other kenpo lineages, seems to be the same.  I won't claim it's like that for every school, but that has been consistent with what I have seen.

When I got into the Chinese methods, they are taught differently and the forms are designed better and it makes more sense.  Initially, I was also reluctant to learn weapons, as I felt they would be less convenient to practice.  While there is truth in that, I found the greater benefits outweighed the inconvenience and I really began to appreciate what it gives to the training experience.

If you find yourself in the San Francisco area let me know.  Maybe we can find some time to get together and share notes.  I couldn't teach you our forms, but at least could show you how it all integrates in my system.  That could be valuable perspective.


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 19, 2016)

This is a reasonably-close interpretation of a basic bo kata, Tokumine no Kun, which I practice.  I feel it is a good, realistic, use of the weapon.  You see in the kata the basic moves.  Jabbing (pool cue and thrusts), striking (hands and feet of opponent), blocking in a variety of ways, and so on.  The stances and transitions are absolutely applicable to empty-hand practice, as is the manner in which power is generated.

I was not a huge fan of weapons forms when I reached the level in my training where they were introduced.  I thought that they were archaic and didn't translate well into modern times.  Although yes, I could theoretically pick up a stick and use it in somewhat the same manner as a bo, I thought the chances of that happening were rather remote.

I still think that the weapons forms I train in have limited application as weapons forms, that is, directly.  However, now that I have spent some time getting familiar with the weapons, learning how to handle them, move them correctly, and perhaps more importantly, to avoid having them taken from me, and the time spent practicing (as I said) the stances and transitions, I feel that I have gained a lot by working with the weapons.  It's not my most favorite thing to do, but it is absolutely worthwhile to me.

I am not a fan of weapons tricking.  I'm sorry, it is just baton-twirling to me and it is meaningless.  It is not only useless for self-defense (go ahead, throw your bo in the air and catch it behind your back while fighting someone, I dare you), but it avoids teaching anything applicable to empty-hand training with the possible exception of good hand-eye coordination.  I'm just not interested in it.  I try not to make fun of the folks doing it, but to me, yeah, it's baton-twirling.


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## drop bear (Nov 19, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> It is part of the curriculum at the place I been going to once you get into some higher colors. I just have no drive for it, no passion, but sadly there will come a point where it will be necessary to advance higher.
> 
> What makes you enjoy the staff? I might be able to get inspired here.



Oh. you dont like the grind huh?


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## MI_martialist (Nov 19, 2016)

Think of your bo training, or any weapon training, as strategy and not simply techniques.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 19, 2016)

Bill Mattocks said:


> This is a reasonably-close interpretation of a basic bo kata, Tokumine no Kun, which I practice.  I feel it is a good, realistic, use of the weapon.  You see in the kata the basic moves.  Jabbing (pool cue and thrusts), striking (hands and feet of opponent), blocking in a variety of ways, and so on.  The stances and transitions are absolutely applicable to empty-hand practice, as is the manner in which power is generated.
> 
> I was not a huge fan of weapons forms when I reached the level in my training where they were introduced.  I thought that they were archaic and didn't translate well into modern times.  Although yes, I could theoretically pick up a stick and use it in somewhat the same manner as a bo, I thought the chances of that happening were rather remote.
> 
> ...


Weapon tricking is a Sin. Unless you are going hollywood.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 19, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> It is part of the curriculum at the place I been going to once you get into some higher colors. I just have no drive for it, no passion, but sadly there will come a point where it will be necessary to advance higher.
> 
> What makes you enjoy the staff? I might be able to get inspired here.


I look at it as something I can probably find in most environments. Of the traditional weapons in JMA, it's among the most similar to what I can pick up in most places. That potential is what keeps me interested in staff and stick.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 19, 2016)

I have always like the staff. Learned a Shaoliin Chanquan staff form, trained Xingyi Staff and Yang staff too, heck I even learned triple section staff. But I must warn you, be careful, the staff can be unforgiving, it broke my ankle in Changquan... come to think of it I broke my ankle twice in Changquan....so maybe it was not so much the staff as it was Changquan


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## Ironbear24 (Nov 19, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Oh. you dont like the grind huh?



Awesome video.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 20, 2016)

For fighting





For Entertainment





For ??  well definitely not for fighting


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 20, 2016)




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## Ironbear24 (Nov 20, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


>



It appears I should be a natural then.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 21, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> I completely understand where you are coming from.  The kenpo staff that I learned, I feel was poorly designed and is a waste of time.  The way it was taught to me did not make the deeper connections that it really needs, and what I have seen of other kenpo lineages, seems to be the same.  I won't claim it's like that for every school, but that has been consistent with what I have seen.
> 
> When I got into the Chinese methods, they are taught differently and the forms are designed better and it makes more sense.  Initially, I was also reluctant to learn weapons, as I felt they would be less convenient to practice.  While there is truth in that, I found the greater benefits outweighed the inconvenience and I really began to appreciate what it gives to the training experience.
> 
> If you find yourself in the San Francisco area let me know.  Maybe we can find some time to get together and share notes.  I couldn't teach you our forms, but at least could show you how it all integrates in my system.  That could be valuable perspective.


I was actually in San Francisco over the summer, but I'm not sure if I will be heading out there anytime soon. If I do, I will definitely let you know so we can meet up.


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## Midnight-shadow (Nov 22, 2016)

I love the staff and it's by far my favourite weapon, particularly for sparring. I focus a lot on good flow with the staff without the flash (I don't staff spin - I consider it a waste of time). As a result, as others have said, my open-hand has improved, especially my footwork.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 22, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> When I got into the Chinese methods, they are taught differently and the forms are designed better and it makes more sense.


Agree! Some Chinese staff forms are fun to learn. Here is the one that I like.






I like the big metal pole better.


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## donald1 (Nov 23, 2016)

Its fun knocking the weapon out of your opponents hand.  It always puts a smile on my face.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 23, 2016)

donald1 said:


> Its fun knocking the weapon out of your opponents hand.  It always puts a smile on my face.


The moment that your staff makes contact on your opponent's staff, the moment that your staff slides along his staff and hit on his fingers. It's called "fingers striking pole technique".


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## donald1 (Nov 24, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The moment that your staff makes contact on your opponent's staff, the moment that your staff slides along his staff and hit on his fingers. It's called "fingers striking pole technique".


I know I've been hit across the fingers. Usually the opponents end up hitting by accident.  Occasionally I accidentally hit myself swinging nunchaku across the fingers.


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## Langenschwert (Nov 26, 2016)

I did a couple of seminars of Jodo and I didn't love it, so I hear you. However, a staff is a very potent weapon, more than a match for a good swordsman.

Weapon training is very useful even if you are primarily an unarmed stylist. Weapon arts require a level of precision that is not needed in an unarmed encounter. When unarmed, you can take a punch to give a punch or land a takedown or whatever. This is not the case with weapons. A single strike with a sword or staff has a very good chance of killing or incapacitating, so you have to practice to not get hit, _ever_. Weapons such as swords and staves are like big giant rulers showing you where your technique is faulty. It also gets you to focus on a wider area, due to their length. I say go for it. The benefits of weapons training are huge, even if it's not your favourite weapon.


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## thanson02 (Nov 28, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> It is part of the curriculum at the place I been going to once you get into some higher colors. I just have no drive for it, no passion, but sadly there will come a point where it will be necessary to advance higher.
> 
> What makes you enjoy the staff? I might be able to get inspired here.



It is hard to be motivated to train in an area that you have little interest and drive in.  I run into the same problem with grappling.  It is part of the curriculum and I understand the importance of learning it, but it doesn't click like weapons work.

That said, I have come to really enjoy staff, but it wasn't something that came easily.  What did help me though was that we have a full application program for it so I was doing more then just the basic drills and long forms.  I have a TKD kickboxing background in addition to my HRD training and once I realized the footwork in staff fighting is almost identical to the footwork in kickboxing, it helped bring it all together.  Also I was working with someone who really loved staff work so her enjoyment of it rubbed off.  As I became more proficient with the weapon, my enjoyment of it increased.  Although I have been told by people that I am a tenacious $#%^, so much of my enjoyment of things is connected with my success in overcoming challenges and I am not afraid of the hard work needed to get there.

And since everyone else is sharing videos,


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## Headhunter (Mar 12, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> I completely understand where you are coming from.  The kenpo staff that I learned, I feel was poorly designed and is a waste of time.  The way it was taught to me did not make the deeper connections that it really needs, and what I have seen of other kenpo lineages, seems to be the same.  I won't claim it's like that for every school, but that has been consistent with what I have seen.
> 
> When I got into the Chinese methods, they are taught differently and the forms are designed better and it makes more sense.  Initially, I was also reluctant to learn weapons, as I felt they would be less convenient to practice.  While there is truth in that, I found the greater benefits outweighed the inconvenience and I really began to appreciate what it gives to the training experience.
> 
> If you find yourself in the San Francisco area let me know.  Maybe we can find some time to get together and share notes.  I couldn't teach you our forms, but at least could show you how it all integrates in my system.  That could be valuable perspective.


I know this is old now so apologies but I'm bored so have been browsing back around the forum and saw this. The kenpo staff set wasn't actually designed by ed Parker. It was designed by one of his students (don't know which one) and was put into the system after he died by another one of parkers senior students. If I'm right there's a few of the higher sets that are like that.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 12, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> I know this is old now so apologies but I'm bored so have been browsing back around the forum and saw this. The kenpo staff set wasn't actually designed by ed Parker. It was designed by one of his students (don't know which one) and was put into the system after he died by another one of parkers senior students. If I'm right there's a few of the higher sets that are like that.


Yup, I believe that is true


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## Headhunter (Mar 12, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Yup, I believe that is true


Not sure if it was before or after he died but it wouldn't surprise me if it was after so some instructors could make money by claiming to have an extra set. I know Parker knew about the nunchaku as he wrote a book on it and did a seminar with lee wedlake on it where they worked them on a heavy bag as he said lots of guys were good baton twirlers but if they hit something with resistance it could cause issues. But I have no idea if he had knowledge of the staff


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## Flying Crane (Mar 12, 2017)

It's my understanding that the first staff set was developed by Chuck Sullivan, and it was well before Mr. Parker died.  I don't know what foundation Chuck had to develop it, nor what Mr. Parker knew about the staff.


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## Blindside (Mar 12, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> I know this is old now so apologies but I'm bored so have been browsing back around the forum and saw this. The kenpo staff set wasn't actually designed by ed Parker. It was designed by one of his students (don't know which one) and was put into the system after he died by another one of parkers senior students. If I'm right there's a few of the higher sets that are like that.



The kenpo staff set has been in existence since the mid-60s, early enough that a version made it into the Tracy Kenpo curriculum prior to the split between Tracy and Parker.


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## Martial_Kumite (Mar 12, 2017)

I personally favor the staff. I love how versatile it can be, and how it can improve the flow o empty hand technique. I do agree that I would not carry a staff around, but if I am attacked and there is a tree branch, sign, lead pipe or a random golf club, staff training will at least give me options.


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