# Who's on first?



## Cruentus (Jul 27, 2004)

I am just writing in reference to the idea of "1st generation" Presas students, and what qualifies someone as first generation or not. The thought of this came up in Dan A's event-planning thread, but I thought I would not distract from that topic. Also, I am not questioning Dan's list, as he is the host of the event. Who a host chooses and who decides to come, and the reasons behind it all will say all that needs to be said about those involved.

However, I am curious about how one defines a 1st generation student, and I take issue with some of the proposed definitions that I have heard at one time or another in past history.

To me, a 1st generation student is someone who trained with Professor Presas....period. 

I don't agree with the notion that your not 1st generation if you started with another instructor, or if you had a senior instructor at home to train with when you weren't attending seminars. Tim Hartman started with John Bryant, yet would still consider him a 1st generation student. I don't think Tim should be penalized and not considered 1st generation because he had an instructor who started him off, and someone to train with (until Bryant dropped off) while he attended events.

Similarly, I don't think Rich Parsons should be thought of as NOT 1st generation just because he had a qualified senior master to train with at home (Master Jim Power). Rich P. went to more seminars, and attended more private seminars in flint with Remy then many who would consider themselves 1st generation. So now he is going to be penalized for having a skilled senior master in the art to train with at home?

For the record, I used Tim and Rich as examples just for that...examples....so don't look to deep into that. There are many examples out there. 

I guess I just don't understand hooplah over "who's on first." I don't know why anyone, other then those maybe trying to posture for themselves, would think in their right mind that someone who trained and especially ranked with Professor should be knocked down to "2nd generation status" because they had the benefit of having a qualified instructor at home to train with as well. This is especially when someone else could visit him only once or twice a year with no one to train with at home, yet consider themselves 1st generation. Seems mighty silly to me...

Thought?

 :mrtoilet:


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 27, 2004)

Disclaimer: I did not nor have I ever thought Dan was trying to make a distingishing remark about by generation. 

Yes, I could see where people could say that I was not a first generation student. And to that All I say is, I hope I have and do represent those I have learned from, well. 

I also agree that the longer you train with the source the better chances are for you to have and be able to absorb what is being taught. So, I can see how comments like this come about, for it seems that many people put their own flare or touches to things.  So, if you train with a second or third generation student is more chance for things to get lost and details left out, then with the average first generation student. And yes there will be exceptions on both sides of this, where some 4th generations students are great and other 1st or second are average. (* This is not a comment about anyone, this is a totally hypothetical discussion *)

Personally, I think of myself as first generation, only I will not argue about it, only ask you if you would like me to teach a seminar at your place , so you can see what I do have to offer.  I openly admit, I am not the head of an organization (* yet  sorry I could not resist *), nor do I have a 5th or 6th degree or have a title from GM Remy Presas, or be a house hold name in the Modern Arnis Community. 

So, given the list I saw, I believe they all trained with GM Remy Presas at one time, and that most have an organization, which meets the discussion point on the previous thread.

Besides as I said and others Host perogative. :asian:

Now to the discussion, at hand. 

Generations, and the discussion, can be a representative of how pure the knowledge is, yet is not always. It can also be a way to gate keep or pigeon hole people into being followers or what have you to others, yet is also not always done for this reason. 

Thoughts?


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## JMP (Jul 27, 2004)

I watched Rich Parsons work with RP many times for many years I know he is a peronal student of Remys.                                                                                                                              Jim Power


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## mcjon77 (Jul 27, 2004)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> To me, a 1st generation student is someone who trained with Professor Presas....period.



Good Thread!

Would this then mean that everyone who attended even 1 of Professor Presas' seminars would be considered a first generation student?  Do they still need to be practicing Modern Arnis to be called a first generation student?  If not, then would the Shotokan instructor who attended one of "the big 3" seminars once, but never really went further in the art be considered a first generation student.?


Jon


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## Cruentus (Jul 27, 2004)

mcjon77 said:
			
		

> Good Thread!
> 
> Would this then mean that everyone who attended even 1 of Professor Presas' seminars would be considered a first generation student?  Do they still need to be practicing Modern Arnis to be called a first generation student?  If not, then would the Shotokan instructor who attended one of "the big 3" seminars once, but never really went further in the art be considered a first generation student.?
> 
> ...



Yes. "1st generation student" doesn't mean credable instructor, or even credable practioner. To me it just means that that you trained with Remy Presas...even if it was only once. I guess you could be a 1st generation student...even if only for a day.   :supcool:


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Jul 28, 2004)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> Yes. "1st generation student" doesn't mean credable instructor, or even credable practioner. To me it just means that that you trained with Remy Presas...even if it was only once. I guess you could be a 1st generation student...even if only for a day.   :supcool:




On this one I'll have to disagree. To me student mean a long term training relationship. I have attended hundreds of seminars. Many of which I've only seen the instructor once. I don't consider them my teacher. They were the presenters on the information. Just my opinion.

Respectfully, :asian:


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## Flatlander (Jul 28, 2004)

Datu Puti said:
			
		

> On this one I'll have to disagree. To me student mean a long term training relationship. I have attended hundreds of seminars. Many of which I've only seen the instructor once. I don't consider them my teacher. They were the presenters on the information. Just my opinion.
> 
> Respectfully, :asian:


I agree with that.  There is a significant difference between teacher and aquaintance.  I could fly down to train with Datu Hartman for a weekend of privates, but my current teacher would still be my teacher.  Datu Hartman would merely be an "acquaintance guide".  I made that up.  Nice though, eh?


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Jul 28, 2004)

flatlander said:
			
		

> I agree with that.  There is a significant difference between teacher and aquaintance.  I could fly down to train with Datu Hartman for a weekend of privates, but my current teacher would still be my teacher.  Datu Hartman would merely be an "acquaintance guide".  I made that up.  Nice though, eh?


 :asian:


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## Guro Harold (Jul 28, 2004)

The instructor has or had to consider you a personal student as well. :asian:


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## Rob Broad (Jul 28, 2004)

It is sad that the Modern Arnis World is having to go through the same thing that American Kenpo is going through with all the power struggles, and claims as to who is and is not a first generation student.

For someone like me is becoming more intrigued with the art and having seen some good and some bad Arnis practioners, I will just say that I just want to train with people I feel are good and offer the quality instruction I am looking for.


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## Dan Anderson (Jul 28, 2004)

Rob Broad said:
			
		

> It is sad that the Modern Arnis World is having to go through the same thing that American Kenpo is going through with all the power struggles, and claims as to who is and is not a first generation student.
> 
> For someone like me is becoming more intrigued with the art and having seen some good and some bad Arnis practioners, I will just say that I just want to train with people I feel are good and offer the quality instruction I am looking for.



Bingo.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Cruentus (Jul 28, 2004)

Datu Puti said:
			
		

> On this one I'll have to disagree. To me student mean a long term training relationship. I have attended hundreds of seminars. Many of which I've only seen the instructor once. I don't consider them my teacher. They were the presenters on the information. Just my opinion.
> 
> Respectfully, :asian:



O.K... I guess I can go with that one. "student" does imply a relationship of more then 1 seminar with a teacher.

So, I stand corrected, and I revise my definition.

A 1st generation student is someone who trained with Professor, and who had a relationship with Professor.

I just don't think that someone should be considered 2nd gen. because they had a good instructor at home, that's all.

 :ultracool


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Jul 28, 2004)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> O.K... I guess I can go with that one. "student" does imply a relationship of more then 1 seminar with a teacher.
> 
> So, I stand corrected, and I revise my definition.
> 
> ...




It would depend if the home instructor had to back off from teaching due to work, family, medical, etc. I would also ask if they hung around Remy or learned from him. My students and I spent a lot of time around Remy. I was taught by Remy and my students from me. My group would go out and party with him because he was one great man, not because he was the GM.

 :asian:


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## Dan Anderson (Jul 29, 2004)

Who's on first?  Alphabetically, I am.   :ultracool 

Yours,
Anderson, Dan


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## Flatlander (Jul 29, 2004)

:lol: :lol: :lol: :hammer:   Clever!


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 29, 2004)

Dan Anderson said:
			
		

> Who's on first?  Alphabetically, I am.   :ultracool
> 
> Yours,
> Anderson, Dan



Dan,

Did you not know that in Modern Arnis, the first name alphabet starts with R and the last with a P. i.e. Grand Master Remy Presas or GoodMan Rich Parsons  :rofl: So, I am on first

Not being an 'A' or a 'Z' I never did get to be first at anything in school


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## Dan Anderson (Jul 29, 2004)

Rikki (don't lose that number),

We in America, son.

Ebonically yours,
Anderson,Dan


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 30, 2004)

Dan Anderson said:
			
		

> Rikki (don't lose that number),
> 
> We in America, son.
> 
> ...



Dan, I agree that everyone else begins their alphabet with an 'A'.


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## Cruentus (Jul 30, 2004)

Datu Puti said:
			
		

> It would depend if the home instructor had to back off from teaching due to work, family, medical, etc. I would also ask if they hung around Remy or learned from him. My students and I spent a lot of time around Remy. I was taught by Remy and my students from me. My group would go out and party with him because he was one great man, not because he was the GM.
> 
> :asian:



True...same with the few guys I had around (I mean, about the partying  :ultracool ). Yet..I have been thinking again...(ow, my head  :uhyeah: )

What about "my student" Vince, or my bro Nate, both who got 3rd brown under Remy. They had gone to enough camps and seminars, and had done all his rank testing through Remy to be considered a 1st generation student, even though they had me to train with back at home.

Similarly, I'd consider guys like Kevin Black, your student, who trained with Remy, a 1st generation student as well. He had plenty of time in with the old man, no?

Someone can be my student, or Tim Hartman's student, and also be a 1st generation student of Remy Presas. I didn't think there was a rule that you could only have one instructor. I am actually honored that I have a couple of "students" who could say they were 1st generation.   

Anyways, I prefer to call them group members instead of "students", which is why I put "students" in quotations for me, but that is just my preference.  :supcool:


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## Northern (Jul 30, 2004)

Whatever generation I am, and whatever generation you guys are... if you want to show me some Arnis, and or Balintawak (sp) I will be GENERally thankful  
PS I don't know who is on third! 
 :CTF: 
PPS (Arnis I don't already know)  That was implied I think.


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