# Taijiquan and Knee Issues?



## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 5, 2008)

Well another person appears to be moving on.  A friend of mine a long time *Taijiquan practitioner* appears to be moving away from her art due severe pain in her knees when practicing.  Her instructor could not help her or would not help her try to fix the problem. (ie. system issues)  So she is moving on.  This has happened to alot of *Taijiquan practitioner's *that I know.  Anyone else experienced this or know someone leaving because of knee issues and reluctancy of the system to allow them to change?


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## Flying Crane (Jan 5, 2008)

Yes, I have definitely heard of this.  In traditional Chen style especially, knee problems are certainly known.  Some Chen dirivatives have made some modifications in recognition of this issue.  Even in traditional Chen it should not be a problem if you are doing things right, but it's pretty easy to be just a bit off, and for some people that is all it takes.


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## grydth (Jan 5, 2008)

That is very discouraging news, especially as Tai Chi has long had an image of helping so many people, and of being welcoming to the disabled.

In a very early class with my first instructor, a person with a serious leg injury stated, " I can't do that move... sorry, but with this knee I just can't move that way."  The instructor went over and asked," Well, what can you do?" The person proceeded to move to their ability. " Do that.", the sifu said, and went on with the class.

I have had 2 instructors since, and each subscribed to that practice. I had seen disabled people, one a 4th dan, shown the door in Japanese arts due to "system issues"..... but never before in Tai Chi.

Now, can Tai Chi cause disability? I believe it can. Our first instructor taught that we should never do one of the transitional postures in he Cheng Man Ching form as it had the potential to blow out the knee. He suggested another way. (I later began to do the form with amendments based on the theories and suggestions of one of his students, Dr Chi Chiang-tao, which restores some postures and eliminates this transition).  I have also been taught that exagerrated leaning, with the knee over and out beyond the foot has damage potential. Finally, there is always risk associated when one practices this as a martial art... same injury potential as any other self defense class.

Just my personal opinion, but this is a discouraging situation.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 5, 2008)

Well my friend has been doing Taijiquan Wu Style for years. (Probably around ten or more)  She is doing the move correctly that bothers it but invariably her knee hurts during and afterwards. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  Unfortunately her instructor does not seem to be allowing experimentation to alleviate the knee pain. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Hence why she is moving on.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 5, 2008)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Well another person appears to be moving on. A friend of mine a long time *Taijiquan practitioner* appears to be moving away from her art due severe pain in her knees when practicing. Her instructor could not help her or would not help her try to fix the problem. (ie. system issues) So she is moving on. This has happened to alot of *Taijiquan practitioner's *that I know. Anyone else experienced this or know someone leaving because of knee issues and reluctancy of the system to allow them to change?


 
There is going lower and going lower properly and the instructor should be able to spot someone that is doing the postures improperly, or for that matter moving from posture to posture improperly and correct them.

I have not yet heard of one person leaving my current sifu's class for knee injury. However there were people that left my first sifu's classes due to knee issues. Difference is are how and what they learned and how they teach. 

My first sifu for all intensive purposes learned the majority of his forms form a Wushu University in Shandong. My Second Sifu learned Taiji form a Taiji master. My first sifu would be considered a gym teacher in China my second sifu would be considered a martial artist, a tajiquan teacher and an old school TCM guy. 

But with all that said there is another big difference that could also be part of the reason. My first sifu has hundreds of students and my second has less than 20. 

As to Chen, I can see it being more prone to knee problems but if I watch Chen Zhenglei do the forms I do not see any posture other than, I believe, Buddha&#8217;s Warrior Attendant Pounds Mortar (Jin Gang Dao Dui) that could very easily cause a knee problem. But I no longer train Chen and only ever knew Old Laojia Yilu (aka Shandong Province old style Chen) and new Laojia Yilu and Chen Zhenglei's 18. And the only one I do at all anymore is CHen Zhenglei's 18.

But I would not doubt that many of the knee problems in Chen come from the lower postures and being just slightly off. Yang can go low but Chen goes lower.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 5, 2008)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Well my friend has been doing Taijiquan Wu Style for years. (Probably around ten or more) She is doing the move correctly that bothers it but invariably her knee hurts during and afterwards.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Wu/Hao or Wu?

If Wu meaning Northern Wu or from the Wu family that is now in Canada then I am not surprised. Wu has a few very front weighted stances that put a lot of stress on the knee. 

If Wu/Hao then I am more surprised.

EDIT:

Interestingly my first Sifu also taught Wu family forms along with Chen, Yang and Sun.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 5, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> Wu/Hao or Wu?
> 
> If Wu meaning Northern Wu or from the Wu family that is now in Canada then I am not surprised. Wu has a few very front weighted stances that put a lot of stress on the knee.
> 
> If Wu/Hao then I am more surprised.


 
Hey Xue Sheng it is Wu from the Wu Family!


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 5, 2008)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Hey Xue Sheng it is Wu from the Wu Family!


 
That can hurt if done slightly wrong


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## pete (Jan 5, 2008)

tai chi chuan, regardless of family style or lineage, is supposed to enable balance.  now, if a student has a pre-existing injury, or starts to develop a new one, the teacher should be knowledgeable enough to correct mis-aligned posture and/or modify the form to suit the student WHILE still maintaining the essential nature of that posture.  if the teacher cannot, he should at least be honest and humble enough to discuss this with the student and either (a) get input from his teacher, or (b) refer the student to a more experienced teacher.

Problem is many teachers refuse to let go of their own ego, and cling to their own limitations, thereby forcing an otherwise good student away from the art...

Conceptually, its simple.  Tai Chi is based on balance.  Say a student has a weakness in their right knee.  Many would react by over-compensating from the stronger left side. This is incorrect, as there will not be balance, the right knee will not improve since it is being 'carried along', and in time the left side will weaken through over-use.

Instead, by limiting the range of motion to that of the weaker part (the right knee in my example), the body remains in balance, and without risk of further injury the weaker part will gradually gain strength.  This concept, consistent with universal tai chi principles, should be applied any range of motion activity.

pete


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## Taijiman (Jan 19, 2008)

I've been having problems.  Turns out I have a degenerative condition in my knees from getting older (kind of sad since I'm only 28, lol).  But physical therapy should help make things much better.  Has your friend seen an orthopedics doctor to see what the problem was?


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 19, 2008)

Taijiman said:


> I've been having problems. Turns out I have a degenerative condition in my knees from getting older (kind of sad since I'm only 28, lol). But physical therapy should help make things much better. Has your friend seen an orthopedics doctor to see what the problem was?


 
You know I believe she has but I do not know what her physician told her.


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## kaizasosei (Jan 19, 2008)

That's why there's chigung-yoga-pilates.etc.
But what are the possible reasons for practicing taichichuan??


j


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## kaizasosei (Jan 19, 2008)

as far as i understood it, there is a strong way and a weak way to do taichi.  this can be reversed for different sexes or age groups.
anybody that has understood the exact way how to go about this, will not/cannot give up that information so easily. and even they can only be proven by their results. 

j


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## scarney (Jan 29, 2008)

Interesting to me is the fact that my knees were healed by doing Tai Chi.  However, I do know how people can push themselves too hard in Tai Chi.   I always tell my students that sore muscles are ok.  Sore joints are not. If something hurts the joints then back off!  

Sean Carney
http://www.SoftAnswerTaiChi.com


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## ggg214 (Jan 30, 2008)

i have also experienced the hurt to my knees. 
but now with right practition, it's no more a problem, even though my left knee haven't recovered from a damage caused in a football match.
i think the way out of this thing is follow right instructions.


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## Taijiman (Jan 30, 2008)

Taiji Quan helped my knees.  Of course, if your knees are previously hurt, doing a posture in such a manner that would damage the knees is going to be noticed right away.  Someone with healthy knees isn't going to notice as quickly.  While a friend of mine might be able to have his knee go past his toes or make his leg a bit crooked in a gongbu with minimal discomfort, for me it's going to be rather painful the first time I do this ;-)


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## kempocat (Jan 31, 2008)

I backed away from Taijiquan due to knee issues
martial arts is not like breathing you dont have to do it so for me it wasnt worth the risk


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## kaizasosei (Jan 31, 2008)

noone is forcing you to breath. it's just better for your health.

j


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## pete (Jan 31, 2008)

kempocat said:


> I backed away from Taijiquan due to knee issues
> martial arts is not like breathing you dont have to do it so for me it wasnt worth the risk


the only risk is with the quality of the teacher, and your ability to listen


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## TaiChiTJ (Feb 5, 2008)

One consideration is the type of footwear. If you are having problems, try stepping through a set not wearing shoes. Use that as a baseline. Work from there to figure out what is best for you.


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## Myrmidon (Mar 9, 2008)

Knee problems often occur in taijiquan practice when rotation is forced on the knee, a type of movement the knee is not designed for. It is important that the feet are properly adjusted as we practice form in order to keep the knees in a natural alignment. This should ward off most knee issues.

Problems also occur when the knee is nor properly aligned with the ankle. This causes a lot of stress in the knee joint.


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## DaPoets (Mar 13, 2008)

The combat styles of Tai Chi tend to have the knee move past the toes when doing a lot of moves.  This over time can build up stress on the knees.  In healing styles of Tai Chi like Taoist Tai Chi, the knees are always looked at by instructors to ensure students do not have thier knees go past their toes for the majority of the moves.  This aids in balance, stress on the knees, and also works other areas of the body like the hips and spine.

For example, while doing a brush knee, you should be able to look down and see your kneecap as well as your toes.

I hope this helps a bit.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 13, 2008)

DaPoets said:


> The combat styles of Tai Chi tend to have the knee move past the toes when doing a lot of moves.


 
aaaa no

All forms of taiji are originally martial and all forms of taiji that are still martial do not all have stances where the knee goes past the toes. Chen, Hao and Yang do not have the knee go past the toes. As a matter of fact neither does Wu or Zhaobao or Fu or any other. The problem I see with Wu is that it tends to be front weighted but it STILL does NOT have a stance where the knee goes past the toes IF it or ANY taiji style is done properly

And ALL taiji forms are also for health.


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## DaPoets (Mar 13, 2008)

A quick google search shows many stances (this one sun style) wher the knee is much further out past the toes.


Here as well:





And the person on the left here:


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 13, 2008)

DaPoets said:


> A quick google search shows many stances (this one sun style) wher the knee is much further out past the toes.


 
Big deal you judge all on one posture from someone I have never seen before. Who are all of these people, how long have they trained, who was thier sifu, do they actually train REAL taiji with the martial arts intact.

And while we are at this what styles of taiji have you trained outside to the Taoist Tai Chi Society. I have trained Yang, Wu and Chen but mostly Yang.

ALL taiji is for health and ALL taiji is basically martial and ALL taiji if done properly DOES NOT use incorrect stances.

*If you are really interested in the truth you can just as easily do a "quick Google search" and find copious videos and pictures of people doing various forms of Taiji that are in the proper stance that does not go beyond the knee. *

And as a note camera angles can make all the difference so I am not really looking at the supplied picture as proof of anything


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## DaPoets (Mar 13, 2008)

I think you are taking this a bit too personal... and I wasn't saying anything about all combat tai chi styles, I was just saying that combat styles "tend" to have the knees extend further than the toes and I just supplied a few pics to back up my comments.  I would think that everyone here understands that there are no absolutes when it comes to tai chi forms as the styles have been been changing and developing over time.  Additionally, the people in those pictures could be "experts" or "beginners", it doesn't matter at all, it just shows that it is being done and I was just addressing that fact.

I would also think that people here would welcome a fresh set of thoughts and eyes, especially on a common concern w/ any martial art when it comes to knee problems.  

As with any sign of respect for ones teacher (more so in eastern cultures than here in the States), I do not have multiple sifu's as I also teach Taoist Tai Chi the best way I can which is an art developed by Master Moy Lin Shin.  I was lucky enough to study under him for a short time before he passed away and he is known and respected throughout the world for his contributions in building and founding temples in China, Canada, and the US.  When I was younger yes I practiced other forms but for the past 12 years I chose to perfect my art of Taoist Tai Chi as best I could, and I volunteer my time to teach others that wish to learn, just as Master Moy did.

If my opinions are not welcome here, I will peacfully leave, but based on the discussions I have seen, you all seem like an open minded bunch.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 13, 2008)

DaPoets said:


> I think you are taking this a bit too personal... and I wasn't saying anything about all combat tai chi styles, I was just saying that combat styles "tend" to have the knees extend further than the toes and I just supplied a few pics to back up my comments. I would think that everyone here understands that there are no absolutes when it comes to tai chi forms as the styles have been been changing and developing over time. Additionally, the people in those pictures could be "experts" or "beginners", it doesn't matter at all, it just shows that it is being done and I was just addressing that fact.
> 
> I would also think that people here would welcome a fresh set of thoughts and eyes, especially on a common concern w/ any martial art when it comes to knee problems.
> 
> ...


 
when you make statements like



DaPoets said:


> The combat styles of Tai Chi tend to have the knee move past the toes when doing a lot of moves.


 
That is a pretty blanket statement and like I said ANY taiji done properly does not stress your knee and the Taoist Tai Chi society does not hold the secret to proper training.

And I have been with the same sifu for almost 14 years so I am not exactly wuse what you are getting at with this statement



DaPoets said:


> As with any sign of respect for ones teacher (more so in eastern cultures than here in the States), I do not have multiple sifu's



I also know a fair amount about Chinese culture; religious, martial art and general life. 

Been to Bai Yun Guan too so care to explain what your getting at there?


*EDIT*

One more question

Have you ever seen Taoist taiji as it is done by Wudang?


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## JBrainard (Mar 13, 2008)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Anyone else experienced this or know someone leaving because of knee issues and reluctancy of the system to allow them to change?


 
Yes, me.


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## ggg214 (Mar 13, 2008)

DaPoets said:


> A quick google search shows many stances (this one sun style) wher the knee is much further out past the toes.
> 
> 
> Here as well:
> ...


 
it's easy to figure out that in these pics, their weight are in their knees. in Tai ji, it's called &#36330;&#33181; &#65288;kneel your knees&#65289;. the more they practise in this way, the more hurt they will feel. until one day, they will find out their knees are broken and unrecovered.
also in the pics. their bodys are broken down by part and part because of this posture. tai ji requires the body should become a pipe from head to foot. so then when body receives strength from external, it can draw the strength down to the ground through body pipe. if you don't belive this, go and put one hand on their back and push, to see whether they can stand still.i think you will find it's right or wrong.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 13, 2008)

ggg214 said:


> it's easy to figure out that in these pics, their weight are in their knees. in Tai ji, it's called &#36330;&#33181; &#65288;kneel your knees&#65289;. the more they practise in this way, the more hurt they will feel. until one day, they will find out their knees are broken and unrecovered.
> also in the pics. their bodys are broken down by part and part because of this posture. tai ji requires the body should become a pipe from head to foot. so then when body receives strength from external, it can draw the strength down to the ground through body pipe. if you don't belive this, go and put one hand on their back and push, to see whether they can stand still.i think you will find it's right or wrong.


 
Good call :asian:

It is simply bad taiji, that is all


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## East Winds (Mar 14, 2008)

DaPoets,

Nice to see a member of the Taoist Tai Chi Society contributing to this board. However you need to realise that because of the restrictions placed on you by the Society in relation to learning and participating in other forms of Tai Chi, your viewpoint will necessarily be restricted. There are several contributors to this board who have vast experience and knowledge of Taiji and I hop you will take the opportunity to continue to enquire about other forms of Taiji. Incidentally I was a member of the TTCS many years ago and worked with both Moy and Eva Wong. That was until I realised just how restricted my own knowledge of Taiji was.

Very best wishes


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