# When to test for rank promotion.



## Barnatha82 (Jul 18, 2016)

I just started karate and I asked my instructor when I will get my first promotion(Yellow belt). He told me that he would randomly  invite no more than 3 students to test at a time. He then told me that he keeps attendance and that he will only test students who attend at least twice a week with a minimum of 30 class training hours, but he would prefer that stuents have 40 class hours before testing. He does not charge testing fees. Is this an appropriate approach to testing?


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## Steve (Jul 18, 2016)

Sounds pretty straight forward.   Do any of the pope,e who test ever fail?


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## Buka (Jul 18, 2016)

Barnatha82 said:


> I just started karate and I asked my instructor when I will get my first promotion(Yellow belt). He told me that he would randomly  invite no more than 3 students to test at a time. He then told me that he keeps attendance and that he will only test students who attend at least twice a week with a minimum of 30 class training hours, but he would prefer that stuents have 40 class hours before testing. He does not charge testing fees. Is this an appropriate approach to testing?



Yup.

Now worries, bro, every dojo is different. But it will all work out eventually, you'll get your belt if you work out and give your best.
Count your blessings, if you were in my dojo and asked about promotions/belts etc, it would be an automatic six months tacked on before you were even considered. 

Just keep training, you're going to love what comes. Your instructor sounds sound.


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## Barnatha82 (Jul 18, 2016)

Steve said:


> Sounds pretty straight forward.   Do any of the pope,e who test ever fail?



I haven't seen any one test yet, but he is serious about technique and will correct someone and show them the right way the moment he sees an improper technique being executed.


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## Barnatha82 (Jul 18, 2016)

Buka said:


> Yup.
> 
> Now worries, bro, every dojo is different. But it will all work out eventually, you'll get your belt if you work out and give your best.
> Count your blessings, if you were in my dojo and asked about promotions/belts etc, it would be an automatic six months tacked on before you were even considered.
> ...



I asked before signing up. I'm glad I didn't ask afterwards.


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## Tames D (Jul 18, 2016)

Welcome to MartialTalk. Are you training in Kanzen Ryu?


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## Tames D (Jul 18, 2016)

Steve said:


> Sounds pretty straight forward.   Do any of the *pope*,e who test ever fail?


This guy must be good if he's training the Pope.


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## Barnatha82 (Jul 18, 2016)

Tames D said:


> Welcome to MartialTalk. Are you training in Kanzen Ryu?



Yes I am. How did you know?


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## PhotonGuy (Jul 20, 2016)

Buka said:


> Count your blessings, if you were in my dojo and asked about promotions/belts etc, it would be an automatic six months tacked on before you were even considered.


Than how would a student know how the system works? Lets say a student isn't clear about how promotion works in your dojo and so they ask about it, what would be another six months just because a student asked about how promotion works?


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## JR 137 (Jul 20, 2016)

PhotonGuy said:


> Than how would a student know how the system works? Lets say a student isn't clear about how promotion works in your dojo and so they ask about it, what would be another six months just because a student asked about how promotion works?



There's ways to ask.  At my dojo (and the rest of Seido Juku), it's against our etiquette to ask when and/or to promote.  The policy is you'll be told when you're ready.

But students starting out should be told the expectations.  Like most schools, we have a minimum about of classes attended before testing policy (kyu ranks).  It's typically 30-60.  If the student isn't ready once that time has been met, they don't test.

A student should ask what is required to promote: material, attendance, and anything else.  They shouldn't ask "when am I going to promote?"   They also can and should respectfully ask why they aren't promoting if they genuinely don't know.  This should always be done privately and asked in a manner that doesn't put the teacher on the defensive.

Just like in comedy, timing and delivery is everything.


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## drop bear (Jul 20, 2016)

Yeah the reality is people want belt ranks.

(Ssshhh. don't tell anyone. But that is why you have them in the first place)


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## PhotonGuy (Jul 20, 2016)

JR 137 said:


> They also can and should respectfully ask why they aren't promoting if they genuinely don't know.


This is basically the point I've tried to make in the past. Not to ask if I could promote but to ask why I haven't been told I could test or promote if its taking me longer than usual to promote and by that I mean if its taking me much longer than the average length of time it takes a student to promote at the particular dojo Im going to. If its taking me much longer than that I would want to know why, specifically where I fall short and what I need to work on to meet my instructor's standards. I want to know what I need to do to bring myself up to par so Im eligible for the next belt or level.


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## PhotonGuy (Jul 20, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Yeah the reality is people want belt ranks.


From my experience both in this forum and in the world of martial arts in general, what I've seen is that some people do and some people don't.


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## drop bear (Jul 20, 2016)

PhotonGuy said:


> From my experience both in this forum and in the world of martial arts in general, what I've seen is that some people do and some people don't.



Yeah i think you are supposed to pretend you dont or something. It gets complicated.


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## PhotonGuy (Jul 25, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Yeah i think you are supposed to pretend you dont or something. It gets complicated.



That's silly if you ask me. Wanting something and pretending you don't.


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## drop bear (Jul 25, 2016)

PhotonGuy said:


> That's silly if you ask me. Wanting something and pretending you don't.



Yeah. But the martial styles have this on offer. Have integrated into their system that you can/should work towards higher rankings. Otherwise they would not have belts. 

But at the same time can't openly chase these ranking because it is seen as a social faux pas.


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## Tames D (Jul 27, 2016)

JR 137 said:


> There's ways to ask.  At my dojo (and the rest of Seido Juku), it's against our etiquette to ask when and/or to promote.  The policy is you'll be told when you're ready.
> 
> But students starting out should be told the expectations.  Like most schools, we have a minimum about of classes attended before testing policy (kyu ranks).  It's typically 30-60.  If the student isn't ready once that time has been met, they don't test.
> 
> ...


Doe's your school have a technique called  'Walking On Eggshells' ?


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## Tames D (Jul 27, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Yeah. But the martial styles have this on offer. Have integrated into their system that you can/should work towards higher rankings. Otherwise they would not have belts.
> 
> But at the same time can't openly chase these ranking because it is seen as a social faux pas.


I think alot of school owners have forgotten who pays who.


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## JR 137 (Jul 27, 2016)

Tames D said:


> Doe's your school have a technique called  'Walking On Eggshells' ?



Nope.  It has techniques called "soccer mom doesn't tell us when you promote," "rank is earned rather than given," and "you must have us confused with the McDojo black belt drive thru."


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## JR 137 (Jul 27, 2016)

Tames D said:


> I think alot of school owners have forgotten who pays who.



While I agree, I think more have given people whatever they want so long as they're paying.  How many people earn their black belt in 2 years?  How many 8 year old black belts are there?  How many from either group can fight their way out of a wet paper bag?

A TKD school down the road from my dojo has several 4th dans around 13-15 years old.  Hopefully they'll achieve grand master status for their 30th birthday.  

As Mr. Miyagi said, "Balance most important, Daniel San."


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## Tames D (Jul 27, 2016)

JR 137 said:


> While I agree, I think more have given people whatever they want so long as they're paying.  How many people earn their black belt in 2 years?  How many 8 year old black belts are there?  How many from either group can fight their way out of a wet paper bag?
> 
> A TKD school down the road from my dojo has several 4th dans around 13-15 years old.  Hopefully they'll achieve grand master status for their 30th birthday.
> 
> As Mr. Miyagi said, "Balance most important, Daniel San."


I agree with everything you are saying. And I didn't mean any disrespect. I just feel if you are paying someone good money for a service, you should have full disclosure on what to expect for those services, and you shouldn't have to be intimidated for asking questions.


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## Tames D (Jul 27, 2016)

JR 137 said:


> Nope.  It has techniques called "soccer mom doesn't tell us when you promote," "rank is earned rather than given," and "you must have us confused with the McDojo black belt drive thru."


Sounds like you belong to a very good school. And you're right, soccer moms shouldn't  determine promotions. However, if she is paying for the service, she should have the right ask questions regarding the program, without intimidation or consequences. Just my opinion.


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## drop bear (Jul 27, 2016)

JR 137 said:


> While I agree, I think more have given people whatever they want so long as they're paying.  How many people earn their black belt in 2 years?  How many 8 year old black belts are there?  How many from either group can fight their way out of a wet paper bag?
> 
> A TKD school down the road from my dojo has several 4th dans around 13-15 years old.  Hopefully they'll achieve grand master status for their 30th birthday.
> 
> As Mr. Miyagi said, "Balance most important, Daniel San."



Different argument. If you sell gradings. Either through class fees or specific costs.  Then the person paying for that should be able to ask about what they are paying for without it being a thing.


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## JR 137 (Jul 27, 2016)

Tames D said:


> I agree with everything you are saying. And I didn't mean any disrespect. I just feel if you are paying someone good money for a service, you should have full disclosure on what to expect for those services, and you shouldn't have to be intimidated for asking questions.



Exactly.  The criteria and expectations should be made clear from the beginning.  Every time I've promoted, I've asked my instructor what's required for my new rank.

I'm not saying you should never ask why you're not promoting (not you personally); just that there's a way to do it.  I've seen several parents ask why their kids aren't promoting right in front of everyone.  My previous CI was good about it, saying he'll speak to them privately after he's done.  Most were good about it, some weren't.  A few would say (in front of the crowd) "I want my kid to promote (at the upcoming test)."  He always handled it in the same professional way, but again, there's irrational people out there who want the answer they want, and want it immediately.

People seem to forget that they agreed to things being done a certain way when they signed up.  They forget that they trusted the CI's judgement when they came in.  They forget they agreed to promotions being at the CIs discretion.  They forget that if he's holding up his end of the agreement, they need to as well.  They forget they can go somewhere else if they feel they're not getting what they paid for.  

I teach science at a private school.  The parents agree to make their kids wear a uniform, act a certain way, etc. when enrolling their children.  They're all about everything we do.  Then comes time to follow through.  They don't like to hear "you agreed to this when you enrolled" when things become inconvenient.

I'm all for accountability.  If a student isn't promoting, the CI should absolutely be transparent about it.


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## JR 137 (Jul 27, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Different argument. If you sell gradings. Either through class fees or specific costs.  Then the person paying for that should be able to ask about what they are paying for without it being a thing.



Absolutely.  Tell the student/parent exactly why.  But  paying doesn't give the student/parent the right to make it a thing.  One parent told my old CI "I pay you salary."  My CI politely responded with "then fire me."


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## Buka (Jul 29, 2016)

PhotonGuy said:


> Than how would a student know how the system works? Lets say a student isn't clear about how promotion works in your dojo and so they ask about it, what would be another six months just because a student asked about how promotion works?



They are told ahead of time. And reminded. Not trying to mess with them, just the way we always used to do it.


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## Deleted member 34973 (Jul 29, 2016)

And this is why I do not train kids lol

Nothing to add, just stopping by


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## PhotonGuy (Aug 1, 2016)

Guthrie said:


> And this is why I do not train kids lol
> 
> Nothing to add, just stopping by



So how old does a student have to be to be trained by you?


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## Grenadier (Aug 1, 2016)

Barnatha82 said:


> I just started karate and I asked my instructor when I will get my first promotion(Yellow belt). He told me that he would randomly  invite no more than 3 students to test at a time. He then told me that he keeps attendance and that he will only test students who attend at least twice a week with a minimum of 30 class training hours, but he would prefer that stuents have 40 class hours before testing. He does not charge testing fees. Is this an appropriate approach to testing?



Other than not having more than 3 students test at one time as well as the lack of an exam fee, what your sensei told you isn't unusual when it comes to a commercial dojo.  

It makes perfect sense to keep attendance, and that the required number of hours is only a minimum standard that your sensei would most likely want you to supersede.  Some people might be fine with the minimum, while others will need more than just the minimum.  

Regarding the limited number of people testing at once, I can understand if he wants to scrutinize each and every test taker, especially if he doesn't have any assistant instructors available.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 1, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Yeah the reality is people want belt ranks.
> 
> (Ssshhh. don't tell anyone. But that is why you have them in the first place)


I don't know how much "want" factored into Kano's development of colored belt rankings. I'm sure it was in there, along with the ability to match competitors by skill level. The "want" was the major reason they are retained in Shojin-ryu. Folks convinced me they were helpful for motivating students. Somehow, my students didn't get that memo, so I have two who have been with me more than a year who still haven't tested for their first belt.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 1, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Yeah. But the martial styles have this on offer. Have integrated into their system that you can/should work towards higher rankings. Otherwise they would not have belts.
> 
> But at the same time can't openly chase these ranking because it is seen as a social faux pas.


Actually, neither of those statements is true of every school. Heck, neither was true of where I trained for the longest. We were encouraged to test only because we weren't allowed the next part of the curriculum until we tested, but I often spent more than a year at each student rank (13 years to black: white, yellow, blue, green, purple, brown). So, no rush to get there, and nobody seemed to mind. And we could ask anything we wanted to, including asking to schedule our test when we felt ready. The only difference with me is that I will occasionally simply tell a student they are testing today, whereas my instructor left it to us to decide that.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 1, 2016)

Tames D said:


> I think alot of school owners have forgotten who pays who.


Meh. It's my job to ensure the quality of the program and the art as I teach it. If a student doesn't like the way I do that, the traditions we follow, etc., there's a better school for them somewhere else. I don't forget who pays whom, and there's a reason they pay me. I don't coddle, and there's a well-conceived reason for everything in how I run the program.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 1, 2016)

Guthrie said:


> And this is why I do not train kids lol
> 
> Nothing to add, just stopping by


This is one of the reasons I don't teach kids, either. That and the fact that when I did (at my instructor's school) I learned they aren't physically ready to learn the complete art, and that's where I want to spend my time.


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## Deleted member 34973 (Aug 1, 2016)

PhotonGuy said:


> So how old does a student have to be to be trained by you?


15 at least.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 1, 2016)

Tames D said:


> Sounds like you belong to a very good school. And you're right, soccer moms shouldn't  determine promotions. However, if she is paying for the service, she should have the right ask questions regarding the program, without intimidation or consequences. Just my opinion.


I think the original post you're referring to was more about asking to test/promote. In some styles/schools, that's entirely the prerogative of the instructor, and the student has no say. Given that, some instructors see it as being impatient if a student asks to test (as opposed to asking what he/she needs to do to be ready to test), and will use a delay in testing to help encourage patience.

It's not my approach, but as long as the culture of the school is built to make this reasonable (like giving them the information they need), I see no issue with it.


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## PhotonGuy (Aug 4, 2016)

Buka said:


> They are told ahead of time. And reminded. Not trying to mess with them, just the way we always used to do it.


Well lets say there's still something a student doesn't understand about how the system works. Would they be penalized just for asking for some clarification?


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## PhotonGuy (Aug 4, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Yeah. But the martial styles have this on offer. Have integrated into their system that you can/should work towards higher rankings. Otherwise they would not have belts.
> 
> But at the same time can't openly chase these ranking because it is seen as a social faux pas.


Well there are some students who just want to develop skill and don't really care about rank, or there are some students who get to a certain rank and then don't care about pursuing any more rank they just want to develop more skill, and there are some students who take up the martial arts for entirely different reasons, maybe they want to get in shape, lose weight, ect. and their reasons have nothing to do with rank.
But the fact of the matter is if you are working towards higher rankings as you state, you are chasing it any way you look at it.


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## Buka (Aug 4, 2016)

PhotonGuy said:


> Well lets say there's still something a student doesn't understand about how the system works. Would they be penalized just for asking for some clarification?



I've always been patient with people who may have learning disabilities, it's part of the responsibility of teaching. People do not always understand things in the same way. Your communication skills have to be constantly honed in order to help any and all students in your care. I will always continue to do that.

Besides, I've only fed a small handful of students to wild dogs.


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## PhotonGuy (Aug 4, 2016)

Buka said:


> I've always been patient with people who may have learning disabilities, it's part of the responsibility of teaching. People do not always understand things in the same way. Your communication skills have to be constantly honed in order to help any and all students in your care. I will always continue to do that.
> 
> Besides, I've only fed a small handful of students to wild dogs.



Well good. Communication is key in teaching, for both the teacher and the learner.


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## PhotonGuy (Aug 6, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I think the original post you're referring to was more about asking to test/promote. In some styles/schools, that's entirely the prerogative of the instructor, and the student has no say. Given that, some instructors see it as being impatient if a student asks to test (as opposed to asking what he/she needs to do to be ready to test), and will use a delay in testing to help encourage patience.


This is what Im against and what I've tried to point out in the past. Im not against students having to be told by the instructor before they can test what Im against is an instructor requiring patience in addition to knowledge and skill in order to test and promote. This is why I've said before that I thought the word patience shouldn't be in a martial artists vocabulary although I had the wrong impression at the time and I was trying to make my point the wrong way. It was years back on a different martial arts forum, and this was long before I joined this forum, that somebody said that earning belts requires more than just skill it also requires patience and for that reason his instructor does not let students test until he tells them they can test and his instructor might not give the student the OK to test even if the student has good enough skill because he wants the student to be patient. Well here's the thing, unless a student is going to a McDojo or a black belt drive through than earning belts will require patience. Why? Because if a student is not going to one of those places I just mentioned than earning belts will require a certain amount of knowledge and skill. And obtaining knowledge and skill requires patience. Lets face it, a student is not going to have the knowledge and skill of a black belt on day one if they're going to a good legitimate school. And any way you look at it obtaining knowledge and skill takes time, it will take a student years to acquire the knowledge and skill of a black belt and so therefore if a student has obtained the necessary knowledge and skill for a particular belt than that shows they've got patience because they wouldn'tve acquired the knowledge and skill if they didn't have patience in the first place. So for an instructor to require knowledge and skill for belts they are automatically requiring patience. So what Im against is an instructor holding back a student who has good enough knowledge and skill for a belt because they want the student to be more patient because the student wouldn't've developed the knowledge and skill without patience in the first place.


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## Gnarlie (Aug 6, 2016)

Oh dear he's off again

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


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## Buka (Aug 6, 2016)

Patience, patience. 

What America needs is an all encompassing, governing body to determine the rank and testing of all Karate students. I propose an amalgamation of former TSA and IRS employees, each with a full two years experience under their belts. It would unify everything, give us a Rank Whore top ten list, and free up all us instructors from testing our students so we could devote more time to the important things in the dojo, like, you know, selling t-shirts.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 6, 2016)

PhotonGuy said:


> This is what Im against and what I've tried to point out in the past. Im not against students having to be told by the instructor before they can test what Im against is an instructor requiring patience in addition to knowledge and skill in order to test and promote. This is why I've said before that I thought the word patience shouldn't be in a martial artists vocabulary although I had the wrong impression at the time and I was trying to make my point the wrong way. It was years back on a different martial arts forum, and this was long before I joined this forum, that somebody said that earning belts requires more than just skill it also requires patience and for that reason his instructor does not let students test until he tells them they can test and his instructor might not give the student the OK to test even if the student has good enough skill because he wants the student to be patient. Well here's the thing, unless a student is going to a McDojo or a black belt drive through than earning belts will require patience. Why? Because if a student is not going to one of those places I just mentioned than earning belts will require a certain amount of knowledge and skill. And obtaining knowledge and skill requires patience. Lets face it, a student is not going to have the knowledge and skill of a black belt on day one if they're going to a good legitimate school. And any way you look at it obtaining knowledge and skill takes time, it will take a student years to acquire the knowledge and skill of a black belt and so therefore if a student has obtained the necessary knowledge and skill for a particular belt than that shows they've got patience because they wouldn'tve acquired the knowledge and skill if they didn't have patience in the first place. So for an instructor to require knowledge and skill for belts they are automatically requiring patience. So what Im against is an instructor holding back a student who has good enough knowledge and skill for a belt because they want the student to be more patient because the student wouldn't've developed the knowledge and skill without patience in the first place.


Actually, some folks learn really fast. I saw two people get arrogant because they progressed so much faster than others. Had they been made to wait, one of two things would likely have happened: they would have learned to be patient and quieted their arrogance, or they would have quit out of impatience. That same instructor now makes the fastest learners wait a bit longer on at least the first few belts, to see what their response is. If they get an attitude, he won't promote them until he feels like they've improved that attitude. If they remain patient, he will eventually let them progress at their natural speed.

These are rare cases, but they are often the reason instructors take an approach like that.


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## drop bear (Aug 6, 2016)

PhotonGuy said:


> This is what Im against and what I've tried to point out in the past. Im not against students having to be told by the instructor before they can test what Im against is an instructor requiring patience in addition to knowledge and skill in order to test and promote. This is why I've said before that I thought the word patience shouldn't be in a martial artists vocabulary although I had the wrong impression at the time and I was trying to make my point the wrong way. It was years back on a different martial arts forum, and this was long before I joined this forum, that somebody said that earning belts requires more than just skill it also requires patience and for that reason his instructor does not let students test until he tells them they can test and his instructor might not give the student the OK to test even if the student has good enough skill because he wants the student to be patient. Well here's the thing, unless a student is going to a McDojo or a black belt drive through than earning belts will require patience. Why? Because if a student is not going to one of those places I just mentioned than earning belts will require a certain amount of knowledge and skill. And obtaining knowledge and skill requires patience. Lets face it, a student is not going to have the knowledge and skill of a black belt on day one if they're going to a good legitimate school. And any way you look at it obtaining knowledge and skill takes time, it will take a student years to acquire the knowledge and skill of a black belt and so therefore if a student has obtained the necessary knowledge and skill for a particular belt than that shows they've got patience because they wouldn'tve acquired the knowledge and skill if they didn't have patience in the first place. So for an instructor to require knowledge and skill for belts they are automatically requiring patience. So what Im against is an instructor holding back a student who has good enough knowledge and skill for a belt because they want the student to be more patient because the student wouldn't've developed the knowledge and skill without patience in the first place.



Yeah. Not sure there are that many successful people who are going to suggest you work less hard for something.


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## PhotonGuy (Aug 7, 2016)

Buka said:


> Patience, patience.
> 
> What America needs is an all encompassing, governing body to determine the rank and testing of all Karate students. I propose an amalgamation of former TSA and IRS employees, each with a full two years experience under their belts. It would unify everything, give us a Rank Whore top ten list, and free up all us instructors from testing our students so we could devote more time to the important things in the dojo, like, you know, selling t-shirts.



I won't respond to that. I haven't got my 100 ft long bo staff.


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## PhotonGuy (Aug 7, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Actually, some folks learn really fast. I saw two people get arrogant because they progressed so much faster than others. Had they been made to wait, one of two things would likely have happened: they would have learned to be patient and quieted their arrogance, or they would have quit out of impatience. That same instructor now makes the fastest learners wait a bit longer on at least the first few belts, to see what their response is. If they get an attitude, he won't promote them until he feels like they've improved that attitude. If they remain patient, he will eventually let them progress at their natural speed.
> 
> These are rare cases, but they are often the reason instructors take an approach like that.



I see, so how does your system work? Are promotion tests scheduled at regular intervals? (every three months, every four months, ect.)


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 7, 2016)

PhotonGuy said:


> I see, so how does your system work? Are promotion tests scheduled at regular intervals? (every three months, every four months, ect.)


No, there are no pre-set schedules. Most instructors in NGA test students as they are ready. The nature of our tests makes it nearly impossible to test groups.


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## PhotonGuy (Aug 11, 2016)

JR 137 said:


> Exactly.  The criteria and expectations should be made clear from the beginning.  Every time I've promoted, I've asked my instructor what's required for my new rank.
> 
> I'm not saying you should never ask why you're not promoting (not you personally); just that there's a way to do it.  I've seen several parents ask why their kids aren't promoting right in front of everyone.


This I must say is absurd. If somebody isn't promoting often its because they aren't ready and I see nothing wrong with parents asking why their child isn't ready and what they need to work on in order to promote, or if its an older child, the child asking the instructor himself but it shouldn't be done in front of everybody.  



JR 137 said:


> My previous CI was good about it, saying he'll speak to them privately after he's done.  Most were good about it, some weren't.  A few would say (in front of the crowd) "I want my kid to promote (at the upcoming test)."  He always handled it in the same professional way, but again, there's irrational people out there who want the answer they want, and want it immediately.


As I said, that's absurd, but as it is sometimes the case parents can be absurd concerning their children's progress in sports including but not limited to the martial arts. That's why I believe its often best for parents to not be involved in their children's sports activities too much.



JR 137 said:


> People seem to forget that they agreed to things being done a certain way when they signed up.  They forget that they trusted the CI's judgement when they came in.  They forget they agreed to promotions being at the CIs discretion.  They forget that if he's holding up his end of the agreement, they need to as well.  They forget they can go somewhere else if they feel they're not getting what they paid for.


True enough.



JR 137 said:


> I teach science at a private school.  The parents agree to make their kids wear a uniform, act a certain way, etc. when enrolling their children.  They're all about everything we do.  Then comes time to follow through.  They don't like to hear "you agreed to this when you enrolled" when things become inconvenient.


So you have experience teaching academics. I think that can be a good thing if you also teach martial arts as although the two fields are different there are some similarities and I would think teaching academics can help with your ability to teach martial arts and vice versa.



JR 137 said:


> I'm all for accountability.  If a student isn't promoting, the CI should absolutely be transparent about it.


Well yes. And I believe a student shouldn't be intimidated about asking why they're not promoting but as you said the student should be polite about it and shouldn't ask in front of others.


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## JR 137 (Aug 11, 2016)

PhotonGuy said:


> This I must say is absurd. If somebody isn't promoting often its because they aren't ready and I see nothing wrong with parents asking why their child isn't ready and what they need to work on in order to promote, or if its an older child, the child asking the instructor himself but it shouldn't be done in front of everybody.
> 
> 
> As I said, that's absurd, but as it is sometimes the case parents can be absurd concerning their children's progress in sports including but not limited to the martial arts. That's why I believe its often best for parents to not be involved in their children's sports activities too much.
> ...



I think you misunderstood my posts.  Parents/students should ask why they aren't promoting (in an appropriate manner), and teachers should state why (in an equally appropriate manner).

Students/parents shouldn't ask TO promote.  The teacher should invite them to promote when they're ready, not when the student/parent thinks they're ready.

From your posts, I'm pretty sure we're actually on the same page.


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## PhotonGuy (Aug 12, 2016)

JR 137 said:


> I think you misunderstood my posts.  Parents/students should ask why they aren't promoting (in an appropriate manner), and teachers should state why (in an equally appropriate manner).
> 
> Students/parents shouldn't ask TO promote.  The teacher should invite them to promote when they're ready, not when the student/parent thinks they're ready.
> 
> From your posts, I'm pretty sure we're actually on the same page.



Yes I do believe we are on the same page. So at your dojo are promotion tests scheduled at regular intervals? (Every three months, every four months, ect.)


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## JR 137 (Aug 12, 2016)

PhotonGuy said:


> Yes I do believe we are on the same page. So at your dojo are promotion tests scheduled at regular intervals? (Every three months, every four months, ect.)



Scheduled every 2 months.  It usually alternates only having one or two people test, or 6 or so.  There's a big group of kids (big group for our small school) that started together, and usually test together - a group of 4 siblings and 3 other kids started within a few weeks of each other.  The first half of color belts have about a 3 month minimum (actually 30 classes), then 6 months to a year minimum as you get closer to black belt.  Average time to 1st dan is a little over 5 years for adults.  Typically longer for kids.  

The only people who test are those who were invited.  There's been several times where no one tested.  Our CI just puts it on the calendar to keep himself organized.  Tests (non-black belt) are held during normal class times, the test is run just like class, only more intense and very little correcting, and students who aren't testing still come to class to train and be a partner.  

We have about 50 students total.  About 20 kids and 30 adults.  Currently only 4 adults who aren't black belts (me included), and 1 junior black belt.  All black belt testing is done at our headquarters in NYC by our founder (Tadashi Nakamura).  Our CI can promote up to I believe 4th dan, but we're only 2.5 hours away from headquarters, so he has us all test there.  He attends all his students' black belt tests and rather us test under his teacher than under him.


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## PhotonGuy (Aug 13, 2016)

JR 137 said:


> Scheduled every 2 months.  It usually alternates only having one or two people test, or 6 or so.  There's a big group of kids (big group for our small school) that started together, and usually test together - a group of 4 siblings and 3 other kids started within a few weeks of each other.  The first half of color belts have about a 3 month minimum (actually 30 classes), then 6 months to a year minimum as you get closer to black belt.  Average time to 1st dan is a little over 5 years for adults.  Typically longer for kids.
> 
> The only people who test are those who were invited.  There's been several times where no one tested.  Our CI just puts it on the calendar to keep himself organized.  Tests (non-black belt) are held during normal class times, the test is run just like class, only more intense and very little correcting, and students who aren't testing still come to class to train and be a partner.
> 
> We have about 50 students total.  About 20 kids and 30 adults.  Currently only 4 adults who aren't black belts (me included), and 1 junior black belt.  All black belt testing is done at our headquarters in NYC by our founder (Tadashi Nakamura).  Our CI can promote up to I believe 4th dan, but we're only 2.5 hours away from headquarters, so he has us all test there.  He attends all his students' black belt tests and rather us test under his teacher than under him.



I see. So students don't test until they're invited to do so. That being the case, is there that many students that fail? If you test only when you get the OK from your instructor when he sees you're ready than I would think that the percentage of students that fail must be very low if there's any students that fail at all. From some of the posts on this forum and from what I've observed myself in the research I've done in lots of different martial arts styles and schools that some students don't test until their instructor is 100 percent positive that they're ready for promotion in which case there is absolutely no failure during the test which makes it not really a test but a demonstration.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 13, 2016)

JR 137 said:


> Scheduled every 2 months.  It usually alternates only having one or two people test, or 6 or so.  There's a big group of kids (big group for our small school) that started together, and usually test together - a group of 4 siblings and 3 other kids started within a few weeks of each other.  The first half of color belts have about a 3 month minimum (actually 30 classes), then 6 months to a year minimum as you get closer to black belt.  Average time to 1st dan is a little over 5 years for adults.  Typically longer for kids.
> 
> The only people who test are those who were invited.  There's been several times where no one tested.  Our CI just puts it on the calendar to keep himself organized.  Tests (non-black belt) are held during normal class times, the test is run just like class, only more intense and very little correcting, and students who aren't testing still come to class to train and be a partner.
> 
> We have about 50 students total.  About 20 kids and 30 adults.  Currently only 4 adults who aren't black belts (me included), and 1 junior black belt.  All black belt testing is done at our headquarters in NYC by our founder (Tadashi Nakamura).  Our CI can promote up to I believe 4th dan, but we're only 2.5 hours away from headquarters, so he has us all test there.  He attends all his students' black belt tests and rather us test under his teacher than under him.


If you have some time, I'd love to chat with you about your experience with this, and how the instructors handle the testing. I'm looking at maybe changing how


PhotonGuy said:


> I see. So students don't test until they're invited to do so. That being the case, is there that many students that fail? If you test only when you get the OK from your instructor when he sees you're ready than I would think that the percentage of students that fail must be very low if there's any students that fail at all. From some of the posts on this forum and from what I've observed myself in the research I've done in lots of different martial arts styles and schools that some students don't test until their instructor is 100 percent positive that they're ready for promotion in which case there is absolutely no failure during the test which makes it not really a test but a demonstration.


Yes, in some schools the test has become a formality - really the first part of the promotion ritual. There's nothing wrong with that, as long as the instructor is evaluating the students along the way. In effect, the actual testing is done in drips and drabs until the instructor is satisfied with everything, then the student is invited to the formal test. I almost tend this way, though not by design. My students seem to be in no hurry for rank, so at some point I have to just point and say, "You. You test today."


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## PhotonGuy (Aug 13, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Yes, in some schools the test has become a formality - really the first part of the promotion ritual. There's nothing wrong with that, as long as the instructor is evaluating the students along the way. In effect, the actual testing is done in drips and drabs until the instructor is satisfied with everything, then the student is invited to the formal test. I almost tend this way, though not by design. My students seem to be in no hurry for rank, so at some point I have to just point and say, "You. You test today."



Well as I said if the so called formal test is just that, a formality, and your performance in it does not affect the outcome than its a demonstration not a test. For something to be a real test the outcome would have to be determined by your performance in it, either pass/fail or some other sort of result such as a letter grade, test score, ect. Otherwise its just a demonstration not a real test.


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## Tez3 (Aug 14, 2016)

PhotonGuy said:


> Well as I said if the so called formal test is just that, a formality, and your performance in it does not affect the outcome than its a demonstration not a test. For something to be a real test the outcome would have to be determined by your performance in it, either pass/fail or some other sort of result such as a letter grade, test score, ect. Otherwise its just a demonstration not a real test.



For many places where the grading is a 'demonstration' or formality  it's actually more of a graduation, the students are constantly being tested throughout their classes for attendance, attitude, techniques under pressure, sparring etc. different places run things differently it doesn't mean that is bad, just different. A lot of people can turn on a performance for a grading and do just enough during class so a constant evaluation of students is the way many instructors like to go.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 14, 2016)

PhotonGuy said:


> Well as I said if the so called formal test is just that, a formality, and your performance in it does not affect the outcome than its a demonstration not a test. For something to be a real test the outcome would have to be determined by your performance in it, either pass/fail or some other sort of result such as a letter grade, test score, ect. Otherwise its just a demonstration not a real test.


Agreed. As I said, in some cases it effectively becomes part of the promotion ritual. I don't think this is a problem, so long as the reason it's only a formality is that the instructor is ensuring the student can pass the test before testing. Some instructors present tests to evaluate students. Others use them as final confirmation. The latter rarely produces failures, since the instructor is usually simply protecting his time by not testing anyone he feels has much chance of failing. These often still have scores - the students are just good enough by the time they test that they pretty much always exceed the minimum required score.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 14, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> For many places where the grading is a 'demonstration' or formality  it's actually more of a graduation, the students are constantly being tested throughout their classes for attendance, attitude, techniques under pressure, sparring etc. different places run things differently it doesn't mean that is bad, just different. A lot of people can turn on a performance for a grading and do just enough during class so a constant evaluation of students is the way many instructors like to go.


I actually had a student fail a test he didn't know he was taking. He still doesn't know he failed it, and doesn't need to. His performance on the techniques simply wasn't yet up to snuff for the rank I was evaluating him for. He was close, so I'll probably be able to test him formally in a couple more weeks (and he'll know it's a test). At that point, it's very unlikely he'll fail.


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## JR 137 (Aug 14, 2016)

@gpseymour and @PhotonGuy 

There's been too many posts and questions (for lack of a better word) to cut and paste quotes.  I'll give you the gist of it...

I'm a 4th kyu in my current organization.  I was preparing for my 2nd dan in my previous organization about 16 years ago before I left to go to grad school.

Colored belt testing...
One of the main points of colored belt testing is preparing the student for black belt testing.  In both systems, students pretty much earned the promotion before being invited to test.  Is it a test, demonstration, rite of passage, formality or any other similar description?  Yes.  It's all of those.  My current teacher has owned his own dojo for about 30 years, and my previous one owned his for about 20 years at the time.  Both failed a handful of students throughout their time.  Students didn't fail due to not being proficient (they proved that beforehand); they failed because they gave up, did something outright disrespectful, repeatedly didn't follow directions, didn't show enough effort, etc.  So I think it's accurate to call it a test of will and/or effort.  I never saw anyone fail in either system, although students in both systems who've been around for a very long time have seen it once or twice.  

Students are pushed out of their comfort zone.  They're put under the pressure of scrutiny.  The pressure and scrutiny increases as rank increases.

My current teacher does colored belt testing.  My former teacher's teacher did colored belt testing until my teacher left that organization.  After leaving, he did all testing.  What I really liked about his testing was he had the senior students (myself included) fill out evaluation sheets of the students testing.  We scored them on a 1-5 scale and wrote comments.  He then added his comments afterward, and the students were given the sheets at a later date.

I'd much rather have a "test" than be awarded a new rank at some arbitrary time.  Even without being told by my teacher, it lets me know where I stand; what I need to work on, how I perform under pressure, etc.  I have respect for the schools that don't test.  I understand why.  I just strongly prefer the test for my own purposes.

Black belt testing...
I haven't been through it in my current organization, but this is what's been said...

This is true testing, as students can and do fail due to technique.  My current teacher doesn't do black belt testing.  He can, he just chooses to have his teacher do it instead.  Dan testing is usually done over several sessions, with a different emphasis on each session - kihon, kata, partner drills, kumite, etc.  There's typically 20-30 testing, and a handful usually fail.  They're basically pulled aside after a session and told in private not to return for the subsequent sessions.  Once they and their instructor feel confident, they can try again (the entire test).  A classmate just tested for 1st dan a few months ago and said there were one or two less students every session (4 sessions total).  Testing is only done with recommendation from the student's CI.  My teacher has never had a student fail a black belt test.  They've always been prepared well.  He attends all of his students' black belt tests (he's only missed one or two individual sessions in his 30+ years).

My previous organization was very similar.  We did one day testing for 1st and 2nd dans.  Instead of several 3 hour sessions, we did a 6-8 hour one day test.

In both systems, there is a written essay required, which you discuss with the group before the physical portion starts.


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## JR 137 (Aug 14, 2016)

@gpseymour 

I have no problem sharing any personal feelings about testing.  PM or ask here!


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 14, 2016)

JR 137 said:


> @gpseymour and @PhotonGuy
> 
> There's been too many posts and questions (for lack of a better word) to cut and paste quotes.  I'll give you the gist of it...
> 
> ...


I'll just reply to the last part, about dan testing. In the association I came up in, testing for shodan (first dan) was the only one with really extensive testing (nidan had some fairly difficult technical testing, just less extensive than shodan, unless the tester decided to retest shodan material - sandan and above were honorary ranks). The shodan testing happened in multiple sessions, including curriculum development, self-defense scenarios (nearly randori, except there were attacks assigned in secret to the attackers), forms (classical techniques), applications, strikes and blocks, vocabulary, and three concept papers. Most weren't really "failable", in that the candidate would be asked to fix the issues with specific techniques (a round kick, for instance) and come back to re-test just that one part. The classical techniques test was theoretically failable, but nearly everyone would do well enough to only have to re-test a few techniques that needed some last polishing. The self-defense test was failable, and I saw people from two schools fail it (one at brown, one at black belt).

My testing curriculum at every rank (even the first student colored belt) mirrors this multi-part testing, though it is obviously far less rigorous and extensive at the lower ranks.


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## Tez3 (Aug 14, 2016)

There's a few ways to grade and I think it may depend on your personality which way you prefer. JR 137 says he prefers to test others I know prefer to be assessed over a length of time, I don't think there is a 'wrong' way other than to just hand out belts for money. It's all part and parcel of finding the style _and_ the style of teaching grading you are comfortable with.


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## JR 137 (Aug 14, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> There's a few ways to grade and I think it may depend on your personality which way you prefer. JR 137 says he prefers to test others I know prefer to be assessed over a length of time, I don't think there is a 'wrong' way other than to just hand out belts for money. It's all part and parcel of finding the style _and_ the style of teaching grading you are comfortable with.



Exactly.  All I know is having a test.  I've tested for every belt I've earned (except my initial white belts).

I honestly feel like I'd be missing out on something if my teacher didn't test me.  But it's the whole process that I really appreciate (the test itself and all the learning that preceded it) rather than the result of the test itself.  With the exception of my black belt test, they've all basically been like class on steroids.  Nothing overly dramatic, just a real tough workout where I'm pushed outside my comfort zone.

My black belt test was an actual test, and it was basically combining every test I took previously, and adding a 30 man kumite on the end.  Easily the most physically exhausting thing I've ever done.  More than a test of proficiency, it was really a test of will.


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## PhotonGuy (Aug 15, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I actually had a student fail a test he didn't know he was taking. He still doesn't know he failed it, and doesn't need to. His performance on the techniques simply wasn't yet up to snuff for the rank I was evaluating him for. He was close, so I'll probably be able to test him formally in a couple more weeks (and he'll know it's a test). At that point, it's very unlikely he'll fail.



So it sounds to me that at your school there are two parts to the test that students take to earn belts. The first part is where the student doesn't know they're being tested. Then if they pass that they can take the 2nd part which is a formal test where they know they're being tested.


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## PhotonGuy (Aug 15, 2016)

JR 137 said:


> @gpseymour
> 
> I have no problem sharing any personal feelings about testing.  PM or ask here!



Well good for you. And its also good to be open and accepting to other school's methods of testing. All too often somebody will bash some other school's testing methods.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 17, 2016)

PhotonGuy said:


> So it sounds to me that at your school there are two parts to the test that students take to earn belts. The first part is where the student doesn't know they're being tested. Then if they pass that they can take the 2nd part which is a formal test where they know they're being tested.


That's my approach.


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## PhotonGuy (Aug 17, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> That's my approach.



Well if a student passes the first part than they can feel confident that they will pass the second.


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## PhotonGuy (Aug 17, 2016)

JR 137 said:


> We have about 50 students total.  About 20 kids and 30 adults.  Currently only 4 adults who aren't black belts (me included), and 1 junior black belt.  All black belt testing is done at our headquarters in NYC by our founder (Tadashi Nakamura).  Our CI can promote up to I believe 4th dan, but we're only 2.5 hours away from headquarters, so he has us all test there.  He attends all his students' black belt tests and rather us test under his teacher than under him.



So your school has the rank of junior black belt? Is testing for the junior black belt also done at the headquarters? I once briefly attended a school that had the junior black belt rank. Before you could be a full black belt you had to go through the rank of junior black belt and the junior black belt was distinguishable in that it had a broad white stripe through the center.


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## JR 137 (Aug 18, 2016)

PhotonGuy said:


> So your school has the rank of junior black belt? Is testing for the junior black belt also done at the headquarters? I once briefly attended a school that had the junior black belt rank. Before you could be a full black belt you had to go through the rank of junior black belt and the junior black belt was distinguishable in that it had a broad white stripe through the center.



Junior black belt is tested for at headquarters, just like adults.  They're not tested alongside adults.  Juniors are initially given a black belt with the white stripe.  After the student meets specific criterial, they're then given a fully embroiled black belt (still has white stripe); fully embroidered means school name and student's name with a dan stripe.  That's done at the CI's request (no formal test at headquarters) without any charge.

Adult kyu ranks start at 14, but it's pretty rare to see an adult black belt under 16.  Junior black belts test for adult black belt after they turn 15 AND fulfilled all adult requirements.  I've heard it's not that uncommon to see 16 year olds still wearing a junior black belt because they're not ready.  Then there's this junior black belt's older sister - rather than test for junior black belt, she opted to stay a brown belt and wait until she was ready to test for adult black belt.  If she tested for junior black belt, she would've most likely tested for adult black belt after a year or so due to her age and ability.  

Junior black belts aren't very common.  My CI was given a new junior black belt syllabus because he hasn't had one in over a decade.  He went over the syllabus with her and her mother (who's a 3rd dan) and I was somehow involved in the conversation.  He's only had 3 or 4 juniors before her (she tested a few months ago).  They're more common in the bigger dojos, but they really pale in comparison to black belt mills.  Even junior black belt is taken very seriously.  They typically average between 6-7 years, and most kids become adult age beforehand.


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## PhotonGuy (Aug 18, 2016)

So lets say somebody starts training at your school at the age of 18, would they go through the rank of junior black? The school I went to everybody would go through the rank of junior black before reaching the rank of full black belt no matter how old you are.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 18, 2016)

PhotonGuy said:


> So lets say somebody starts training at your school at the age of 18, would they go through the rank of junior black? The school I went to everybody would go through the rank of junior black before reaching the rank of full black belt no matter how old you are.


In most schools, "junior black" is a rank for someone not old enough to earn an adult black belt. What you're referring to is something I think I've only seen in one other school, where they called it a "probationary black", I think. This is a reasonable alternative to simply delaying the black belt longer.


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 18, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> In most schools, "junior black" is a rank for someone not old enough to earn an adult black belt. What you're referring to is something I think I've only seen in one other school, where they called it a "probationary black", I think. This is a reasonable alternative to simply delaying the black belt longer.



In Korean arts, it's called "chodanbo" which means, literally, "half a black belt" with the concept being that of probationary or or candidate. They wear a red/black belt, although the white stripe would work just as well, of course. It's a transition period, from student to teacher.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 18, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> In Korean arts, it's called "chodanbo" which means, literally, "half a black belt" with the concept being that of probationary or or candidate. They wear a red/black belt, although the white stripe would work just as well, of course. It's a transition period, from student to teacher.


Thanks. This is essentially the same as the first-degree black belt in Shojin-ryu. They are still technically a student (don't get instructor certification until second degree).


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## JR 137 (Aug 18, 2016)

No.  Junior black belt is only for children under 15 (don't hold me to the exact age).   When I test for black belt in my current organization, I'll be a full-fledged 1st dan.

I've heard of some karate schools with a Shodan-ho.  I'm lead to believe this is a standard probationary period.

My former organization had 3 brown belt levels.  A solid brown belt, a brown belt with a black stripe through it (like the white stripe on a junior belt), and a half brown/half black belt.  The half brown/black belt was the final belt before black.  I didn't learn any new material during that rank.  It was a minimum of 6 months of consistent training and refining my skills before I tested for black belt.  My current organization doesn't have that, but the amount of time between advanced brown belt and black belt is 1 year, so realistically it's the same thing minus the additional belt.

Edit:  I forgot to insert Photon's last post in this post and can't insert the quote now.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 18, 2016)

JR 137 said:


> No.  Junior black belt is only for children under 15 (don't hold me to the exact age).   When I test for black belt in my current organization, I'll be a full-fledged 1st dan.
> 
> I've heard of some karate schools with a Shodan-ho.  I'm lead to believe this is a standard probationary period.
> 
> ...


I think a lot of associations take one of these approaches (probationary black, part-black, and extended brown) to do much the same thing, which is to have a final vetting period before granting someone their black belt, which the public tends to view as an "expert".


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## JR 137 (Aug 18, 2016)

PhotonGuy said:


> So lets say somebody starts training at your school at the age of 18, would they go through the rank of junior black? The school I went to everybody would go through the rank of junior black before reaching the rank of full black belt no matter how old you are.





gpseymour said:


> I think a lot of associations take one of these approaches (probationary black, part-black, and extended brown) to do much the same thing, which is to have a final vetting period before granting someone their black belt, which the public tends to view as an "expert".



I agree.  

My former Sensei treated it as a time to tie up any loose ends, work on weaknesses, sharpen up, and prepare for the shodan test.  I liked that rank.  Time will tell if I feel the same way after I go through my current organization's way of not having a clearly defined time such as this.


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## PhotonGuy (Aug 19, 2016)

I do know there are schools that award the jr black belt to people in the children's class. When you are a jr black belt you are not a full black belt and to get a full black belt you have to be in the adults class. The place I briefly trained at was different, both children and adults had to get a jr black belt before they could get a full black belt. You started with white and then progressed up the various colors until you got to brown. Once you got to brown you would work on your jr black belt which would have a solid white stripe through the center. Then after that you could get a full black belt which was entirely black. It was a Kempo school in Hawaii, I don't know of any other schools that use this system.


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## JR 137 (Aug 20, 2016)

PhotonGuy said:


> I do know there are schools that award the jr black belt to people in the children's class. When you are a jr black belt you are not a full black belt and to get a full black belt you have to be in the adults class. The place I briefly trained at was different, both children and adults had to get a jr black belt before they could get a full black belt. You started with white and then progressed up the various colors until you got to brown. Once you got to brown you would work on your jr black belt which would have a solid white stripe through the center. Then after that you could get a full black belt which was entirely black. It was a Kempo school in Hawaii, I don't know of any other schools that use this system.



In nearly every karate school I've seen, kids have a white stripe through every belt they wear.  In both schools I've been in, the syllabus is the same for kids and adults.  The difference is kids are responsible for less material than adults; meaning that they go through the material at a slower pace.  A newly promoted junior black belt is learning more or less the same material as an adult who just promoted to adult (solid) brown belt.


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## PhotonGuy (Aug 21, 2016)

JR 137 said:


> In nearly every karate school I've seen, kids have a white stripe through every belt they wear.  In both schools I've been in, the syllabus is the same for kids and adults.  The difference is kids are responsible for less material than adults; meaning that they go through the material at a slower pace.  A newly promoted junior black belt is learning more or less the same material as an adult who just promoted to adult (solid) brown belt.



My main dojo does not use stripes for children's belts, just solid colors for the belts of both children and adults, and in most of the dojos I've been to such a system hasn't been used. I've recently taken up BJJ and there you will sometimes see children with striped belts.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 21, 2016)

PhotonGuy said:


> My main dojo does not use stripes for children's belts, just solid colors for the belts of both children and adults, and in most of the dojos I've been to such a system hasn't been used. I've recently taken up BJJ and there you will sometimes see children with striped belts.


The system I came up under also did not use the striped belts. My instructor added them for the very young kids later. We knew who was a Jr. belt because of their age, and because youth students didn't get to wear the chest patches. If you were under 16, you generally (depending upon size) started in the youth program. After reaching green (white-yellow-blue-green), a youth student could train for and test to adult yellow.


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## PhotonGuy (Aug 26, 2016)

Tames D said:


> I just feel if you are paying someone good money for a service, you should have full disclosure on what to expect for those services, and you shouldn't have to be intimidated for asking questions.



Try telling that to Chris Parker.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 26, 2016)

PhotonGuy said:


> Try telling that to Chris Parker.


Did you really just come over here to try to start an argument?


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## PhotonGuy (Aug 26, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Did you really just come over here to try to start an argument?


Nope


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