# want to run a taekwondo dojang



## Peace & Harmony (Oct 1, 2010)

hey everyone, i would think it would be a really good idea to run a dojang for martial arts. i plan to ask my instructor about it and maybe he could help me (hes 26 and a second degree black belt) any other suggestions about the long porcess of running a school? 

thanks


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## Gemini (Oct 1, 2010)

Why do you think it would be a good idea? What do you envision when the thought comes to mind? 

Be honest. This could be a very good thread or completely worthless if you're not honest.


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## Peace & Harmony (Oct 1, 2010)

because i love taekwondo, even though i am a white belt im surprised that i have fallen in love with it so quickly. i love helping people in general, and what better way to combine my two loves, helping those that ask for it and taekwondo. it would be a very good idea because i see the effects already, not only the physical aspects of it but also the mental aspects of it. taekwondo has made me try harder even though something is hard to do or hard to perform, it has made me for confident in myself. those values are somthing that kids and also adults should always have if they dont have them already. i see it in my own dojang that we have instil those values. people in my dojang are having fun, sometimes laughing and at the same time determined, confident, not afraid to make mistakes and also helping each other. i remember this one day, a blue belt student had to do 50 knuckle pushups and he couldnt do it and we all coached him through it and he finally did and we all clapped when he reached fifty. that is the dojang that i want to run. i want my students to come in with a sense of seriousness but also with the sense of calm and peace that the person or persons will learn values that will carry them through the rest of their life. i can understand why you asked me why i wanna run one, cus i have heard of people who do these things just for the money and for me, thats not the case, i want my students to have the same driving passion that i do.


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## jks9199 (Oct 1, 2010)

Learn how to run a business before you try to open a dojang.  Then treat it like a business.  Nothing says you can't enjoy how you earn a living -- but if you run your business like a club or a game, you'll fail.  Expensively.

Are you sure that the market in your area can support another dojang?  I'm not far away, and I'm sure not.

Do you have a business plan?  Proposed location?  Do you know what the rents run?  Advertising costs?  Insurance prices?  How about employees?  Employment law?

If it sounds like I'm suggesting at least taking some college or continuing ed classes on small business -- you're right.


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## Omar B (Oct 1, 2010)

I would wait till I'm at least a black belt before I start worrying about running a school.  If I remember correctly you are a white belt and chances are good you may drop out for whatever reason before getting there.  I suggest seeing it through till black belt, everyone can say they are committed in the honeymoon beginner period.

You forgot to ask about insurance JKS.


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## Gorilla (Oct 1, 2010)

Your goal to be an Olympian and Run you own school are admirable.  My first piece of advice would be to concentrate on getting promoted to Yellow belt.  If you are aspiring to such high goals I applaud you and would not discourage you. Make sure that you learn as much as you can during your journey so that you are ready when the time comes.  These are long term goals 10-15 years.  Slow down and enjoy the trip.


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## Peace & Harmony (Oct 1, 2010)

thanks everyone for the advice you guys are awesome! and gorilla i know i have such high goals and im happy that i do! taekwondo is sooo amazing to me and im glad that im doing it now  i practice alot not only in my room, but outside and people stare at me all the time lol i guess its because not many people have seen a guy do martial arts on my campus before lol either way, i love taekwondo and i want it to make it my life. but i know i have to study on getting my psycology degree so while im doing my training, i will have a job that will me with my financies while im pursuing my dreams of taekwondo.


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## Omar B (Oct 1, 2010)

Be cognizant of where you practice outside, some of those curious looks might lead to chuds picking fights.

Slow down, learn the curriculum, there will be lots of time for opening your own dojang when you get to black belt.


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## Peace & Harmony (Oct 1, 2010)

thanks omar, and your def right, you think practicing in my room is easier? it kinda sucks because the floors in my dorm arent carpet, so its really hard for me to pivot my foot when i do a roundhouse kick sometimes. but i have a kicking paddle so i use that when i have the chance. im mainly focusing on increasing my flexibility by doing stretches a couple times a day, before and after i go to bed.


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## Omar B (Oct 1, 2010)

Peace & Harmony said:


> *T*hanks *O*mar, and your def right, you think practicing in my room is easier? *I*t kinda sucks because the floors in my dorm *aren't* carpet*ed*, so it is really hard for me to pivot my foot when *I* do a roundhouse kick sometimes.  *B*ut *I* have a kicking paddle so *I* use that when *I* have the chance. *I'm* mainly focusing on increasing my flexibility by doing stretches a couple times a day, before and after *I* go to bed.



I don't know your room so I can't say.  But you are a member of a dojang you know, how about practicing there?  Or anywhere less public than ... out in public making a poppy show of yourself.


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## ATC (Oct 1, 2010)

Omar B said:


> _*T*hanks *O*mar, and your def right, you think practicing in my room is easier? *I*t kinda sucks because the floors in my dorm *aren't* carpet*ed*, so it is really hard for me to pivot my foot when *I* do a roundhouse kick sometimes. *B*ut *I* have a kicking paddle so *I* use that when *I* have the chance. *I'm* mainly focusing on increasing my flexibility by doing stretches a couple times a day, before and after *I* go to bed._


Ha ha ha...Took me a second to figure out what you were doing with all the bold letters and words. Gave me a good chuckle.


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## Gemini (Oct 1, 2010)

Peace & Harmony said:


> because i love taekwondo, even though i am a white belt im surprised that i have fallen in love with it so quickly. i love helping people in general, and what better way to combine my two loves, helping those that ask for it and taekwondo. it would be a very good idea because i see the effects already, not only the physical aspects of it but also the mental aspects of it. taekwondo has made me try harder even though something is hard to do or hard to perform, it has made me for confident in myself. those values are somthing that kids and also adults should always have if they dont have them already. i see it in my own dojang that we have instil those values. people in my dojang are having fun, sometimes laughing and at the same time determined, confident, not afraid to make mistakes and also helping each other. i remember this one day, a blue belt student had to do 50 knuckle pushups and he couldnt do it and we all coached him through it and he finally did and we all clapped when he reached fifty. that is the dojang that i want to run. i want my students to come in with a sense of seriousness but also with the sense of calm and peace that the person or persons will learn values that will carry them through the rest of their life. i can understand why you asked me why i wanna run one, cus i have heard of people who do these things just for the money and for me, thats not the case, i want my students to have the same driving passion that i do.


 
Sounds to me like you're experiencing the infatuation of a new event, much like we all did in the beginning. Everyone goes through it. The reality is, very few make it past the first year of training much less getting their black belt, much less owning a school.

I don't want to discourage you by any means, but being starry eyed isn't going to get you a successful school. You have to be clear on what's required and determined to see it through. 

It requires primarily 2 things from you. It's the ABILITY to teach, not just the DESIRE to teach that will determine how effective you are as an instructor. I know some instructors that love what they do, but they really aren't all that good at it. It's not measured bu your passion, but by the quality of the students who practice there. How many teachers in school do you have/had that are really smart, but have half the class failing from confusion. Desire is desirable, but ability is essential. 

The other is a good business sense as has been mentioned above. I think many instructors here would teach for free if they could, but it's not realistic. Folks that do this for a living still have to eat, and while you may be critical of what you referred to as "people that do this just for money" are really few and far between. More schools are open because of the desire to build something good than to make money. In larger towns there are some "chains" that may do well and are often referred to as belt factories, but most schools are independant and success is an ongoing, never ending struggle. Sometimes these schools may progress a student that outsiders might consider unqualified, but I've met very few owners that don't struggle daily weighing values vs overhead. Sometimes the poor choice is the only one you get. If you're going to own a school, you'll be making those decisions too. 

Set your goals in shorter milestones. It's easier to gauge your progress, which in turn helps to motivate in what you're going to find is a long journey.

Good luck! I want to be there for opening ceremonies!

Regards,


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## Archtkd (Oct 1, 2010)

Peace & Harmony said:


> thanks omar, and your def right, you think practicing in my room is easier? it kinda sucks because the floors in my dorm arent carpet, so its really hard for me to pivot my foot when i do a roundhouse kick sometimes. but i have a kicking paddle so i use that when i have the chance. im mainly focusing on increasing my flexibility by doing stretches a couple times a day, before and after i go to bed.


 
If you are seriously thinking about having the knees, hips and and back to compete in the Olympics and run your own dojang pay attention to what surfaces you are training on, now. Carpet on concrete and other surfaces that make it hard for you to pivot your foot -- and offer no shock absorbtion or some resiliency -- will guarantee you knee, hip and back problems sooner than you think.


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## T43 (Oct 2, 2010)

I have a question regarding WTF, Kukkiwon and running your own school.

I have been in TKD for 25 years, on/off.  5th degree, ITF.  I switched to WTF a while back and am interested in what the requirements from the Kukkiwon are to run my own dojang.  I drive 30 miles from the small town I live in to practice now with my Sabumnim.  I want to open a small dojang in my small town, but, I don't know if I can promote color belts as a 1st Dan Kukkiwon.  I have considered the Skip to 3rd, but I am waiting to skip to 4th or maybe 5th at some later point.

Does the Kukkiwon have a Dan requirement to promote color belts?  What about Black Belts?

Thanks for reading.


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## Archtkd (Oct 2, 2010)

T43 said:


> I have a question regarding WTF, Kukkiwon and running your own school.
> 
> I have been in TKD for 25 years, on/off.  5th degree, ITF.  I switched to WTF a while back and am interested in what the requirements from the Kukkiwon are to run my own dojang.  I drive 30 miles from the small town I live in to practice now with my Sabumnim.  I want to open a small dojang in my small town, but, I don't know if I can promote color belts as a 1st Dan Kukkiwon.  I have considered the Skip to 3rd, but I am waiting to skip to 4th or maybe 5th at some later point.
> 
> ...



Why do you need the Kukkiwon or any organization to run your own independent business in the U.S.? Is the Kukkiwon or any organization going to help you with capital, staffing; money for rent, utilities, insurance, , business license, marketing, advertising, etc. Those are the things you need to worry about if you are thinking about opening a dojang.

That said, here's the skinny if you plan to follow Kukkiwon rules. You have to be be at least a 4th Dan Kukkiwon certified to test and directly recommend students for promotion to any Kukkiwon Dan or Poom grade. You have to be at least 4th Dan to promote students to any Gup grade.


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## ATC (Oct 2, 2010)

T43 said:


> I have a question regarding WTF, Kukkiwon and running your own school.
> 
> I have been in TKD for 25 years, on/off.  5th degree, ITF.  I switched to WTF a while back and am interested in what the requirements from the Kukkiwon are to run my own dojang.  I drive 30 miles from the small town I live in to practice now with my Sabumnim.  I want to open a small dojang in my small town, but, I don't know if I can promote color belts as a 1st Dan Kukkiwon.  I have considered the Skip to 3rd, but I am waiting to skip to 4th or maybe 5th at some later point.
> 
> ...


KKW only registers and certifies Black Belts. That is it. You do not need anything other than your requirements to promote color belts.


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## ArmorOfGod (Oct 3, 2010)

T43 said:


> I have a question regarding WTF, Kukkiwon and running your own school.
> 
> I have been in TKD for 25 years, on/off. 5th degree, ITF. I switched to WTF a while back and am interested in what the requirements from the Kukkiwon are to run my own dojang. I drive 30 miles from the small town I live in to practice now with my Sabumnim. I want to open a small dojang in my small town, but, I don't know if I can promote color belts as a 1st Dan Kukkiwon. I have considered the Skip to 3rd, but I am waiting to skip to 4th or maybe 5th at some later point.
> 
> ...


 
Just go full independent.  If you are a 5th degree, you can promote someone else to 4th degree black belt (or 3rd degree black belt, depending on your point of view).
Check out Pellegrini's Independent TKD group: http://www.dsihq.com/#the-independent-taekwondo-association-ita-4c5084 or AIKIA www.aikia.net/

Those are good groups that will let you teach without answering to the Kukkiwon, ITF, or WTF.

AoG


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## T43 (Oct 5, 2010)

Thanks for all of the help in this thread.  It has helped a ton.  Before this thread, this is what I looked like -


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## Balrog (Oct 5, 2010)

Peace & Harmony said:


> hey everyone, i would think it would be a really good idea to run a dojang for martial arts. i plan to ask my instructor about it and maybe he could help me (hes 26 and a second degree black belt) any other suggestions about the long porcess of running a school?
> 
> thanks


I've been a school owner since 1994.

Be prepared to do a TON of work before you open your doors and several TONS afterward.  Some of the things you need are:

1.  Location, location, location.  Are you going to be a standalone business or operate as a club attached to a Y or something similar?
2.  What are the demographics in a 5 mile radius of your desired business location?
3.  Create a Subchapter S or LLC business entity and do *everything* through it.   Do not sign one single piece of paper as yourself, but always as an officer of the business.
4.  Create a pro-forma income statement with projected expenses and earnings for one year.  Make it realistic; err on the greater side for expense and the lower side for income if you have to estimate.  Take the total expense amount and multiply it by 2.5.  You need to have that much cash available before you even think about opening a business.

And after the doors are open, advertise like crazy, but only within that 5 mile radius.  That's where 99% of your students will come from; concentrate on that area alone.

I've only scratched the surface here.  You might check for a local chapter of SCORE and get with them.  Their advice will be invaluable.  http://www.score.org/index.html

And don't forget - you absolutely have to build time into your schedule for your own personal training.  Never stop growing, never stop learning!

Good luck!


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## Peace & Harmony (Oct 6, 2010)

thanks everyone so much!!  you all rock


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## Earl Weiss (Oct 6, 2010)

ArmorOfGod said:


> Just go full independent. If you are a 5th degree, you can promote someone else to 4th degree black belt (or 3rd degree black belt, depending on your point of view).
> Check out Pellegrini's Independent TKD group: http://www.dsihq.com/#the-independent-taekwondo-association-ita-4c5084 or AIKIA www.aikia.net/
> 
> Those are good groups that will let you teach without answering to the Kukkiwon, ITF, or WTF.
> ...


 
Why stop there. If you are independant you can make yourself a 12th Dan and promote to whatever you want. 

As for Pelligrini's group. I would not reccoment it. First I have to say that I have been to some of his Hapkido seminars and like his stuff. As a Hapkido guy why he has any business certifying TKD people I;ll never know. 

What tured me off firther was that as aprt of a BIll Wallace seminar he was hosting a couple of "TKD" people as aprt of their promotion did a pattern. 

When they finished I asked my guys "How did you like Po Eun?" 

Their answer "That was Po Eun?"

I think the "No Curriculum mandates" on the website pretty much sums up what they are certifying.


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## ArmorOfGod (Oct 6, 2010)

Earl Weiss said:


> Why stop there. If you are independant you can make yourself a 12th Dan and promote to whatever you want.
> 
> As for Pelligrini's group. I would not reccoment it. First I have to say that I have been to some of his Hapkido seminars and like his stuff. As a Hapkido guy why he has any business certifying TKD people I;ll never know.
> 
> ...


 
Okay, then let me clarify myself: pick an independent org that is legit and go with it.  I don't know if Earl Weiss is saying you HAVE to be ITF or WTF to be legitimate, but obviously that is not true.

I will concede that over 90% of independent orgs are junk where you just mail the money and pick your rank, but many martial artists (such as myself) end up in a situation where the teachers above themselves have either died or retired, thus making independent orgs neccessary.

As for Pellegrini, I am glad you shared that with us.  I have never really dealt with him or his group.

AoG


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## Flying Crane (Oct 6, 2010)

ArmorOfGod said:


> Okay, then let me clarify myself: pick an independent org that is legit and go with it. I don't know if Earl Weiss is saying you HAVE to be ITF or WTF to be legitimate, but obviously that is not true.
> 
> I will concede that over 90% of independent orgs are junk where you just mail the money and pick your rank, but many martial artists (such as myself) end up in a situation where the teachers above themselves have either died or retired, thus making independent orgs neccessary.
> 
> ...


 
On the other hand, if you are going to go independent, they what's the point of belonging to any org at all?  Sort of undermines the whole "independent" thing...

hell, stand on your own two feet.


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## Earl Weiss (Oct 6, 2010)

ArmorOfGod said:


> Okay, then let me clarify myself: pick an independent org that is legit and go with it. I don't know if Earl Weiss is saying you HAVE to be ITF or WTF to be legitimate, but obviously that is not true.
> 
> 
> AoG


 
Interesting thought to ponder.  "What is legitimate?"

Is there a difference between having 20 years of experience and the same experience for 20 years? 

I am not sure how we might agree on legitimacy. It certainly would not have to do with belonging to a certain organization although if you do belong to an organization / school with established rank curriculm standards, then meeting those stnadards would be legitimate for that org.


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## dancingalone (Oct 6, 2010)

Earl Weiss said:


> As for Pelligrini's group. I would not reccoment it. First I have to say that I have been to some of his Hapkido seminars and like his stuff. *As a Hapkido guy why he has any business certifying TKD people I;ll never know. *



If memory serves me correctly, I've read that he was actually a TKD black belt before switching to hapkido.  Some hapkido people give him grief over that, saying his motivation in switching was due to aging and injuries, making it impossible for him to practice and teach the high kicks in TKD.

Not sure who (if anyone) awarded him his rank, but he's a 9th dan in TKD according to this profile from Black Belt magazine:  http://www.blackbeltmag.com/john_pellegrini_black_belt_hall_of_fame/archives/755

And he seems to have some type of relationship with the Kukkiwon since his website claims people affiliated with his org can become registered black belts with the KKW.


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## dancingalone (Oct 6, 2010)

Flying Crane said:


> On the other hand, if you are going to go independent, they what's the point of belonging to any org at all?  Sort of undermines the whole "independent" thing...
> 
> hell, stand on your own two feet.



I think it has to do with the desire to keep the 9 or 10 dan ranking system going.  You are right if every black belt is exactly the same, then there is no need to continue to accumulate dan levels.  But if you're a 2nd or 3rd dan with no teacher and you want to run your own school and promote your students and keep the graduated levels, I could see where the interest comes from.

We're keeping it simple in our church TKD program which is independent.  No dan levels, even though the 3 people teaching all earned various dan grades in other TKD organizations.  If you're a black belt, you have exactly the same belt as everyone else who is black.  Instructors and seasoned black belts will probably count for more in the decision-making, but that's natural anyway as they have more invested in the group than a _tyro_ BB.


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## dancingalone (Oct 6, 2010)

Earl Weiss said:


> Interesting thought to ponder.  "What is legitimate?"
> 
> Is there a difference between having 20 years of experience and the same experience for 20 years?
> 
> I am not sure how we might agree on legitimacy. It certainly would not have to do with belonging to a certain organization although if you do belong to an organization / school with established rank curriculm standards, then meeting those stnadards would be legitimate for that org.



Presumably joining an organization would give MA-orphaned people a chance to gain a new teacher, hopefully one with a real amount of skill if they are an organization head or higher up.  I would not understand the attraction to such organizations if they are just a certification paper mill.


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## bluewaveschool (Oct 6, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Presumably joining an organization would give MA-orphaned people a chance to gain a new teacher, hopefully one with a real amount of skill if they are an organization head or higher up.  I would not understand the attraction to such organizations if they are just a certification paper mill.




i want a new teacher, which is why i'm scouting them out.  i could just go itf, but i don't think i'd get far without the sine wave.


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## dancingalone (Oct 6, 2010)

bluewaveschool said:


> i want a new teacher, which is why i'm scouting them out.  i could just go itf, but i don't think i'd get far without the sine wave.



Any new (and legitimate) teacher is going to make you go outside of your comfort zone.  Correct me if I am wrong, but you are relatively inexperienced, correct?  If so, I would advise finding a skilled teacher close enough to train with and learn from regularly, even if what he teaches is not a perfect match to what you currently practice.

It does no good to hook up with someone in another state as you likely won't be able to work with him more than a few times a year at most.


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## bluewaveschool (Oct 6, 2010)

I'm out of practice.  I trained hard to get from white belt to 2 dan.  Then I sort of wandered around the country and didn't practice.  Now I'm getting in shape and doing at least the basic kicks and strikes daily, if I can't get into either the weight room or dojang.  Stretching daily too, though I need to start waking up about 30 minutes earlier than I do and do some Wii Fit yoga every day.  I can give out 1st dan house belts all day long (figure of speech, I don't give rank), but anyone that wants to go higher, I can't do anything for them.  

I only mention ITF because we teach the same formset, pre-sine wave invention.  I THINK I've found someone, gotta see the man in person though.


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## bluewaveschool (Oct 6, 2010)

I should point out that practicing forms, I'd love to do in the living room, but every time I do my kiddos attack.


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## dancingalone (Oct 6, 2010)

bluewaveschool said:


> I should point out that practicing forms, I'd love to do in the living room, but every time I do my kiddos attack.



My little one loves to hang onto me when I practice kata.  I just let him climb onto my back as I perform the pattern slowly in low stances with dynamic tension until he gets bored and moves onto something else.  It's a good workout for me and lets me spend a little bit of time with him.  Maybe he'll have a fond memory out of it when I am gone.


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## Gemini (Oct 6, 2010)

bluewaveschool said:


> I should point out that practicing forms, I'd love to do in the living room, but every time I do my kiddos attack.


 


dancingalone said:


> My little one loves to hang onto me when I practice kata.


 
Isn't it amazing the way they just _know_ to do that? :rofl:


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## bluewaveschool (Oct 6, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> My little one loves to hang onto me when I practice kata.  I just let him climb onto my back as I perform the pattern slowly in low stances with dynamic tension until he gets bored and moves onto something else.  It's a good workout for me and lets me spend a little bit of time with him.  Maybe he'll have a fond memory out of it when I am gone.



Hmm, that is a good idea...


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