# Statistics please....



## Cruentus (Dec 30, 2003)

I heard something related to the idea that a higher % of people attacked by a knife die then the % of people attacked by guns.

I don't know how true this statistic is, but I am interested in some good knife stats. 

So, for all you research buffs out there...get to work!  

Please post as many knife related stats that you can find here (with sources of course).

Thanks,

PAUL


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## Cruentus (Dec 30, 2003)

Here is a site with some statistics regarding LEO and knives: 

http://www.folders-r-us.org/statistics.htm

Towards the bottom, they state 6 out of 10 gunshot victims die from sustained injuries 8 out of 10 knife attack victims die from sustained injuries, meaning that you have a 20% greater chance of living if you are shot then if you are stabbed.

Interesting, eh? Thats the one stat. I was looking for. Any others?


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## Cruentus (Dec 30, 2003)

I tried to edit and it double posted me. Retarded! Can a MOD please delete the 1st post?

thx


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## Disco (Dec 30, 2003)

6 out of 10 gunshot victims die from sustained injuries 8 out of 10 knife attack victims die from sustained injuries. 

You are 20 % more likely to die from a knife stab than from being shot in the Unites States.

1.	Firearms		[6,846 or 49 %]
2.	Auto Accidents		[2,090 or 15 %]
3. 	Motorcycle Accidents	[1,022 or 7 %]
4. 	Struck by Vehicle	[955 or 7 %]
5. 	Job-Related Illness	[588 or 4 %]
6. 	Aircraft Accidents	[311 or 2 %]
7.	Stabbings		[197 or 1 %]

The numbers shown don't equate to what the author is saying. Something is out of wack here.:idunno:


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## Rich Parsons (Dec 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Disco _
> *6 out of 10 gunshot victims die from sustained injuries 8 out of 10 knife attack victims die from sustained injuries.
> 
> You are 20 % more likely to die from a knife stab than from being shot in the Unites States.
> ...



No they are jsut fine 

Out of the 6846 people shot 60% will die, or 4107.6

Out of the 197 people stabbed 80% will die or 157.6

The percentage is within the category of assault.

Does this help?


PS: Statistics do not lie, but some people sure can calculate statistics to present data in a certain way to make a point


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## Cruentus (Dec 30, 2003)

Rich is exactly right!


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## arnisador (Dec 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *Towards the bottom, they state 6 out of 10 gunshot victims die from sustained injuries 8 out of 10 knife attack victims die from sustained injuries, meaning that you have a 20% greater chance of living if you are shot then if you are stabbed. *



Well, 20% more than 6 out of 10 means 7.2 out of 10. What you have is a difference of 20 percentage _points_, not twenty percent.

I wonder if people who are stabbed are apt to be stabbed several times whereas someone who is shot is more likely to be hit only once or twice?

These were attacks on LEOs, which may not be representative. If you attack a LEO you know you're attacking a person armed with a gun, who can call back-up, and who is used to confrontation. Attacks on them must be of a very particular type.


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## arnisador (Dec 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *I tried to edit and it double posted me. Retarded! Can a MOD please delete the 1st post?*



Done.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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## dearnis.com (Dec 30, 2003)

If these are attacks on LEOs then #s are skewed by the use of body armor.


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## Cruentus (Dec 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by dearnis.com _
> *If these are attacks on LEOs then #s are skewed by the use of body armor. *



The thing is, it doesn't really cite a source, or specify whether this stat. (6/10 die from guns, 8/10 die from knives) is confined only to LEO or not. Thats why I started this thread...I am looking for some more sources and supporting stats.

So...anyone got any?


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## hardheadjarhead (Jan 2, 2004)

It might be too that when somebody attacks with a knife, they do so with a different mindset...perhaps greater savagery...resulting in more wounds.  We hear about people being stabbed/slashed twenty times.  We hardly ever hear about someone being shot twenty times.  Okay...no New York cop jokes...

Then too, when people get shot, they often fall down...whether they need to or not.  We've been somewhat conditioned to do that..."GAD!  I'VE BEEN SHOT!"  I've read where people have been stabbed and slashed and not even realized it.  This could provoke an attacker to cut and stab more.

Regards,


Steve


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## Old Tiger (Jan 2, 2004)

I think death from edged weapons results primarily from blood loss and shock as opposed to internal injury trauma.


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## hardheadjarhead (Jan 3, 2004)

Death from a gun shot is caused by blood loss or destruction of the CNS (a round between the running lights).  Same for a knife.  

Internal injury...say a stab to the kidney...typically causes death from blood loss.  Same for damage to the heart.  If the heart stops due to trauma, one could count that as blood loss even if the person didn't bleed out.


Regards,


Steve


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## 7starmantis (Jan 7, 2004)

> _Originally posted by hardheadjarhead _
> *Then too, when people get shot, they often fall down...whether they need to or not.  We've been somewhat conditioned to do that..."GAD!  I'VE BEEN SHOT!"  I've read where people have been stabbed and slashed and not even realized it.  This could provoke an attacker to cut and stab more.
> *



I'm not sure if I agree. In a situation where adrenaline is flowing you can be shot even more than once and not know it.

A good friend of mine was serving as a state trouper in Kentucky, when a routine stop turned into a fire fight. He was closing in on the suspect and was shot by another unseen suspect. The bullet entered his neck, went upwards into his mouth where is severed his tongue in two. It left through his left cheek. 
He was obviously thrown to the ground, but then got back up and began to chase the suspects as they ran. It took two of his friends to tackle him and take him to the ambulance. He couldn't understand why they were restraining him until he got to the ambulance. 
This may be a rare situation, but I can tell you story after story of people losing limbs or being severely injured and their adrenaline keeping them going. After all, thats what its there for, to keep you alive.



> _Originally posted by hardheadjarhead _
> *Internal injury...say a stab to the kidney...typically causes death from blood loss. Same for damage to the heart. If the heart stops due to trauma, one could count that as blood loss even if the person didn't bleed out.*



This may be picky, but trauma to the heart muscle causing it to stop kills someone faster than bleeding out does, so technically its not the same as bleeding out. There are internal injuries that can kill quickly, while bleeding out takes some time, comparativly.

7sm


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## OULobo (Jan 8, 2004)

I always heard that knives were more deadly because of puncture wounds or stabbings. The puncture wound is the hardest to prevent infection from. Contributing causes are organ shut down from direct trauma, blood loss from internal blood vessel damage, shock from the visual impact of the trauma, complications from internal bleeding like "sucking chest wounds", pressure build up from blood vessel damage and internal infection that is heard to reach and treat.


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## 7starmantis (Jan 8, 2004)

> _Originally posted by OULobo _
> *I always heard that knives were more deadly because of puncture wounds or stabbings. The puncture wound is the hardest to prevent infection from. Contributing causes are organ shut down from direct trauma, blood loss from internal blood vessel damage, shock from the visual impact of the trauma, complications from internal bleeding like "sucking chest wounds", pressure build up from blood vessel damage and internal infection that is heard to reach and treat. *



Thats all true, but that is refering to an "after-the-fight" type of death. None of those are going to be the immediate kill that we are talking about. Infection is dangerous but in a self defense type situation the strategy changes.

7sm


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## OULobo (Jan 8, 2004)

> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> *Thats all true, but that is refering to an "after-the-fight" type of death. None of those are going to be the immediate kill that we are talking about. Infection is dangerous but in a self defense type situation the strategy changes.
> 
> 7sm *



Ageed, but organ immediate organ failure from direct trauma and severe shock from visual impact. Also for the purpose of statistics "after-the-fight" deaths are still counted, in terms of death by knife. I also wanted to add that gunshot wounds can be a little better to treat because of the exiting action of the bullet and the possible cauterizing effect of the bullet.


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## 7starmantis (Jan 8, 2004)

> _Originally posted by OULobo _
> *Ageed, but organ immediate organ failure from direct trauma and severe shock from visual impact. Also for the purpose of statistics "after-the-fight" deaths are still counted, in terms of death by knife. I also wanted to add that gunshot wounds can be a little better to treat because of the exiting action of the bullet and the possible cauterizing effect of the bullet. *



Have you ever seen an average exit wound for a .38 bullet? If there is an exit wound it is usually severe and not in any way easy to treat. Trust me, I've had my fingers in them before to stop bleeding in transit. Its a myth that bullets cauterize, they do not. If there is any from heat it is not helpful in any way in saving the life or limb of the victum.

I see that after the fact deaths are still counted, I wasn't thinking in terms of statistics, which is the topic of this discussion, my mistake.

7sm


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## Cthulhu (Jan 10, 2004)

My history professor used to always stress that there were three kinds of lies:

1) Lies
2) Damn lies
3) Statistics

Cthulhu


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## Seig (Jan 11, 2004)

Just a point I would like to make, I am not in this debate.  Most bullets that are not designed for target are designed to _mushroom_ on impact and tear on the way out.


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## 7starmantis (Jan 11, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Cthulhu _
> *My history professor used to always stress that there were three kinds of lies:
> 
> 1) Lies
> ...



  I like that statement! I've never really liked statistics myself.

7sm


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## Cruentus (Jan 11, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> *Just a point I would like to make, I am not in this debate.  Most bullets that are not designed for target are designed to mushroom on impact and tear on the way out. *



Sure. But the #'s are what they are. The question is "Why" are they what they are. It seems to me that one is more likely to face a gun then a knife, but if one faces a knife they are more likely to die then if they face the gun. Maybe? I don't know. I still don't know if the stats from that article are for law enforcement only, or for everyone; because that could change the #'s greatly.

Which is more deadly, knife or gun? The one that kills you, I guess.

I guess I am waiting for some more #'s, not comparing knives to guns, but just in general.

Anybody got any more stats. (or damn lies...heh) to post?


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## 7starmantis (Jan 11, 2004)

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *Sure. But the #'s are what they are. The question is "Why" are they what they are. It seems to me that one is more likely to face a gun then a knife, but if one faces a knife they are more likely to die then if they face the gun. Maybe? I don't know. I still don't know if the stats from that article are for law enforcement only, or for everyone; because that could change the #'s greatly.
> 
> Which is more deadly, knife or gun? The one that kills you, I guess.
> ...



So your wanting statistics on people *faced* with either of the weapons, not statistics on those stabed or shot ?

In other words, what weapon is often times used more and more often used to kill ?

7sm


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## 7starmantis (Jan 12, 2004)

90% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

7sm


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## Cruentus (Jan 13, 2004)

> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> *So your wanting statistics on people faced with either of the weapons, not statistics on those stabed or shot ?
> 
> In other words, what weapon is often times used more and more often used to kill ?
> ...



No....

I am just looking for some general statistics regarding the knife and knife attacks (with references). 

That is all. It doesn't have to be specifically one aspect or the other...just some general stats.


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## 7starmantis (Jan 13, 2004)

Shows that hand guns are more often used in homicide than knifes.

Year: 2000
Hand gun deaths: 7950
Other Gun: 2209
Knife:2090
Blunt Object: 724
Other Weapon: 2545


7sm


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## Cruentus (Jan 13, 2004)

> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> *Shows that hand guns are more often used in homicide than knifes.
> 
> Year: 2000
> ...



Yea...stats like that!  

Keep em' comin', everyone! :asian:


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## hardheadjarhead (Jan 13, 2004)

Here is a site that will lead to all SORTS of stats...DOJ.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pubalp2.htm

Click around and you'll find weapons used in assaults, etc.  Scroll down and you'll see some interesting stuff.

Here, more specifically, is something having to do with injuries sustained during crimes:

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/ivc98.htm

A section taken from above reads:

*Of those injured, 82% reported such injuries
as bruises, black eyes, cuts, scratches,
swelling, chipped teeth, or other injuries
requiring less than 2 days hospitalization
denoted in this report as minor injuries.  

Type of injury                Percentage
Total victims with injuries        100 %

Minor                               82 %
Cuts and bruises                    66
Other minor                         16

Severe                              13 %
Broken bones or teeth                4
Knife/stab/slash wound               3
Loss of consciousness                3
Internal injuries                    2
Gunshot wound                        1

Rape without additional injuries     4 %

The sum of the detail may not total to 100% due
to rounding.

Approximately 13% of injured crime victims
described severe injuries.  These injuries
included gunshot wounds, knife wounds,
broken bones, loss of teeth, internal injuries,
loss of consciousness, or other injuries
requiring 2 or more days of hospitalization. 
Another 4% experienced rape/sexual assault
with unspecified types of injuries.*

NOTE THAT ACCORDING TO THIS...THREE TIMES AS MANY PEOPLE REPORTED GETTING CUT/SLASHED AS DID THOSE GETTING SHOT.

I'd never read that before.  Another little tidbit for my seabag of knowledge.


Regards,


Steve


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## hardheadjarhead (Jan 13, 2004)

Sorry about double posting...but this is unrelated to the above.  For an entertaining look at statistics that is well written and perfectly suited for the innumerate (such as the very calcexic ME), read "How To Lie With Statistics", by Darrel Huff and Irving Geis.  

Its short and sweet...and won't bore you.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...f=sr_1_1/102-8717909-5212116?v=glance&s=books



Regards,


Steve


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## arnisador (Jan 13, 2004)

Great book--I draw from it when I teach statistics.


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## hardheadjarhead (Jan 13, 2004)

And...well, sorry...but here I go again...a triple post.  I just keep finding new stuff.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/ascii/vrithed.txt

Table 2. Characteristics of violence-related injuries 
treated at hospital emergency departments, 1994        

Characteristic of injury 
and violent event                     Number    Percent 

Injury diagnosis         
Total                               1,417,500    100.0% 
Shot                                   70,300      5.0 
Concussion/head injury                 50,900      3.6 
Muscular/skeletal injury              234,800     16.6 
Cut/stab wound/ internal injury       433,500     30.6 
Bruise                                477,600     33.7 
Burns/chemical injury                  13,300       .9 
Poisoned                                1,400       .1 
Rape/sexual assault                    63,800      4.5 
Other                                  72,000      5.1 



Weapon used         
Total                               1,417,500    100.0% 
No weapon                             827,700     58.4 
Firearm                                60,900      4.3 
Hit with gun                           15,300      1.1
Knife/sharp object                    100,100      7.0
Other object                          264,900     18.7
BB/pellet gun                           9,400       .7
Not recorded                          139,200      9.8



Note the weapon used column...knives and sharp objects are the choice.  Stats show that guns put more in the morgue, though.

I still like guns!

Regards,

Steve


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## Cruentus (Jan 14, 2004)

> And...well, sorry...but here I go again...a triple post. I just keep finding new stuff.



Thats alright. It's all good information!


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## 7starmantis (Jan 14, 2004)

One thing to think about however is that those stats are listed as:  

Violence-Related Injuries Treated in Hospital
Emergency Departments

And deaths are not treated in hospitals, so the numbers of those seriously wounded by gunshots could be higher if including those DOA as well as knife wounds or any serious injuries.

7sm


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## hardheadjarhead (Jan 14, 2004)

> And deaths are not treated in hospitals, so the numbers of those seriously wounded by gunshots could be higher if including those DOA as well as knife wounds or any serious injuries.



No...certainly.  Deaths due to knife and gunplay are listed somewhere on that link I provided.  I believe the FBI's Uniform Crime Report lists the total deaths for each.  You can then contrast them with these stats.

What is interesting is that more people die due to guns, but according to this, more people are injured by knives.  This would indicate that guns are, in fact, more lethal.  

DOJ is a good resource for the martial artist.  Click around and you'll find scads of information pertinent to self defense.  Somewhere in there is a link stating that knives are the weapon of choice for rapists...but overall they don't prefer to use weapons. 


Regards,

Steve


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