# When to stop jumping



## shesulsa (Oct 20, 2006)

Well?  When will you stop jumping in hyungs and will you stop jumping and spinning first?

Some, I know, will stop upon their first serious knee injury, others when they start getting arthritis in their knees and/or hips.

So ... when will you stop, why, and what are your plans in your art after that?


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## terryl965 (Oct 20, 2006)

Well for the most part I have stopped jumping and flying in the air mainly because of bad knees and the extra wieght. If and when all of this 85 pounds are gone I'm sure my knees will feel better and then the jumping can start again for a limited time.


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## Darksoul (Oct 20, 2006)

-At the moment, I'm not studying martial arts, mostly due to scheduling. But having very flat feet and now wearing arch supports to adjust, your question gives me some thoughts. I suppose during training, a person does what they can, to push themselves on all levels. During combat, you would only leave the ground if you felt it was the right thing to do. If you get to the point where you can no longer jump, then simply work on the techniques that you can do. Of course, you should also make it a point to train against people who can still jump, to deal with those techniques, even if you cannot do them. I'll spend the rest of the day running this through my head while I'm in the rain at work;-) Good question!!!

A--->


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 20, 2006)

I say as soon as possible. When I was just a kid a junior instructor had us all spar while hopping on one foot. I endeed up hurting myself so badly I swore off the aireal stuff at age sixteen.
Sean


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## Makalakumu (Oct 20, 2006)

The sooner the better.  In fact, as teachers, if our objectives are to create an art that someone can practice with longevity, then we need to seriously rethink our curriculum.

I look at my own art, TSD, this is based upon Okinawan Karate which had practioners actively training in their golden years.  Did those guys practice jumping and spinning?  No.  Did they practice a heck of alot of other self defense skills other then jumping and spinning.  Hell yes!

I'm 30 years old.  I've been practicing martial arts for 20 years and TSD for 10.  Thinking about the above objective has caused me to totally rethink what I do.  Much of the jumping and spinning is now gone from the TSD that I practice.  Why?  Because I don't want to ask the question "when to stop jumping/spinning" 20 years from now when all of the damage is done.


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## searcher (Oct 20, 2006)

I have just recently stopped jumping and started doing a little hop-skip motion instead.   The only time I plan on jumping now is for testing purposes.


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## EmperorOfKentukki (Oct 20, 2006)

It is interesting....because I blew out my right knee not when I was jumping....but when I was doing a standard sliding up round kick.  A kick I must have thrown a million times before.   Did I not rotate my back foot.  Yes and no.  I had atleast a 45 degree rotation of the toes to the rear....and the ACL ripped right in half.   Could it have been the extra weight I now carry in middle age?  Maybe.  Was it the poor rotation?  Probably didn't help the situation.  Was it just fatique set in because I had been in the gym working out for over 4 hours?  Certainly could contribute to it.

No....it probably was because the knee was already injured....but like the tough guy I am....I didn't do anything about it because as a 'martial artist' I should be able to turn off the pain and have the discipline to persevere even in adversity.


Or...maybe its just because I'm getting old....and that sucks!

Anyway.....my 'jumping days'....are done!

JH


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## karatekid1975 (Oct 21, 2006)

For me, I blew out my right knee doing a flying side kick at 27 (my knee went the wrong direction flying at a heavy hanging bag). Also I was doing or trying to do 540's and stuff at 29 and 30 years old. I could do them, and after showing some teenagers how to do them, I blew out my left hip. Then I blew out my left knee at work. So, I said enough. I'm too old for that stuff. I stick to the basics now ... easier on the body  I can still do the jumping stuff, but I save it for special occassions like testing and tournies. That's not to mention how many times I pulled the good ol' hammies. I still have one that is bugging me from 4 months ago.

Your body lets you know when to go easy.


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## Makalakumu (Oct 21, 2006)

Some injuries just happen.  I knew a guy who was playing a simple game of tag with his kid and blew his achilles tendon.  All he did was take three steps to accelerate and it popped on the third step.

With that being said, I don't think that you can use this as an excuse to not think about your curriculum if longevity of practice is part of your art.  And if it isn't, have at it!  I'll still totally respect the athleticism.

Some moves are rediculously dangerous and have absolutely no martial application.  Practicing these isn't for me because they don't fit my objectives.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 21, 2006)

I have witnessed people blowing out there knees doing something they have done a thousand times before.  It certainly appears that as we age our joints do become susceptible to damage.  I think upnorthkyusa has the right idea by eliminating items from his training that have no martial value. (based on what he wants to achieve)  Having said that I still enjoy watching someone performing aerial kicks but I will not be doing them anymore myself.


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## zDom (Oct 21, 2006)

While I don't do it nearly as often, I hope to keep jumping as long as I am able.

Hopefully I'll get some cues from my body that it is time to stop before I injure something... hopefully.


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## TraditionalTKD (Oct 23, 2006)

I don't think you can put a quantifiable number like age on it. Some older students are in fantastic shape (Jhoon Rhee and Hee Il Cho come to mind). Others are 25 years old and couldn't jump if their lives depended on it. My answer is this: I will stop jumping when my body tells me it is time to stop. Otherwise, with proper practice and conditioning, I see no reason to believe I will have to stop jumping anytime soon (I'm 38).


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## Chattan (Oct 23, 2006)

Brian stated:



> I have witnessed people blowing out there knees doing something they have done a thousand times before. It certainly appears that as we age our joints do become susceptible to damage. I think upnorthkyusa has the right idea by eliminating items from his training that have no martial value. (based on what he wants to achieve) Having said that I still enjoy watching someone performing aerial kicks but I will not be doing them anymore myself.


 
I agree with this.  I cut out jumping and spinning kicks roughly ten years ago because the damage that they have on the knees, hips and back.  I also tried to remove techniques and training methods that could lead to future damage of said areas.  I did this because I talked to older martial artists who were no longer able to participate due to injuries sustained by those techniques.

I think that many would stay longer in TKD and related arts if there were curriculum changes to the arts.  This way the practitioner could remain active in the curriculum for years without any real damage.  

Good thread and something that needs to be examined more indepth.

Joe


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## IcemanSK (Oct 23, 2006)

I've been blessed to still have good knees after 24 years in Taekwondo. I'd say, the sooner one learns to stay on the ground, the better.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 23, 2006)

I have hurt my knees in the past grappling but have always been able to do jump kicks with no problem.  However a couple of years ago I observed someone blow out their knee doing a front jump scissor kick.  He did not jump high or land hard but unfortunately his knee had had enough.  Took him quite a while to recover and he will not be doing jumping kicks ever again.


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## fireman00 (Oct 23, 2006)

shesulsa said:


> Well? When will you stop jumping in hyungs and will you stop jumping and spinning first?
> 
> Some, I know, will stop upon their first serious knee injury, others when they start getting arthritis in their knees and/or hips.
> 
> So ... when will you stop, why, and what are your plans in your art after that?


 
Damage so far: 1.) miniscus in my left knee - took 3 months off and kept it light for a year, now I wear a brace for sparring, testing or when we run through all our forms. 2.)  I have arthritis sneaking into my lower back; but I've found a miracle cure in using Magnabloc brand magnets.... like magic but the pain is now a 2 out of 10 compared to a constant 8 previously. 3.) a little pain and less flexibility in my right hip so I've had to cut back on tornado roundhouse; but I'm still able to get the axe and crescent kicks to still work.  4.)  Fell and tore up my right ankle (thought I broke it originally). Doesn't bother me to much when it does I tape on a magnet and in 20 minutes I'm good to go. I do were an ankle brace for sparring and runnining.

I'll keep up with TKD until the magnets stop working  - even then our instructor is VERY understanding about the impact aging has on the adult athlete and she will modify training for the over 40 crowd.


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## Brother John (Oct 23, 2006)

There's a huge difference:
Chosing to stop the leaps/jumps
and being forced too.

Me? The hips were hurting terribly...caused me to reconsider the usefulness of jumping, the realism that I feel it lacks. THEN...the Kneeeeeeeeeeees went south!! That's when I HAD to stop, when I was forced too. But by then, I didn't miss it, an I don't think I'm worse off for it one ounce.

Your Brother
John


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## matt.m (Oct 23, 2006)

I do not really jump per se anymore.  I am on the quick slide or tiny hop or skip plan.  Just barely enough to get off the ground.  My golden rule is "If it hurts do not do it."


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## Pheonix (Dec 28, 2006)

Now, I'm only eighteen and haven't learned the impacts of ageing first hand.  However I am afraid that one day I will become injured and it will have long term effects to the point that I will not be able to continue jumping, spinning, and falling.  Just because I am afraid that I will be injured doing some of these things I won't let it stop me.  If you don't do something important to you or to save something important to you then you will only live with the purpose of regreting not doing it.  

I also believe that if it hurts you really shouldn't do it.  This in MY opinion is smart even though I don't always abide by it.  I feel that there are times when you need to just tough it out and live with the pain.

I guess what I am trying to say is I will only stop jumping and spinning when it hurts too much or might cause furthur injury to myself.  However when I feel that the need arises I would still jump or spin and deal with the pain.  

Farang
Adam


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## Shaderon (Feb 16, 2007)

Pheonix said:


> I also believe that if it hurts you really shouldn't do it. This in MY opinion is smart even though I don't always abide by it. I feel that there are times when you need to just tough it out and live with the pain.


 

I agree in principal but there is "good" hurt and "bad" hurt.  Good hurt is where you are pushing yourself and the muscles need to improve to cope, bad hurt is where you do yourself damage and should no longer push it.   People can tell the difference with experience.


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## geocad (Apr 25, 2007)

TraditionalTKD said:


> I don't think you can put a quantifiable number like age on it. Some older students are in fantastic shape (Jhoon Rhee and Hee Il Cho come to mind). Others are 25 years old and couldn't jump if their lives depended on it. My answer is this: I will stop jumping when my body tells me it is time to stop. Otherwise, with proper practice and conditioning, I see no reason to believe I will have to stop jumping anytime soon (I'm 38).


 
I agree.  When my body tells me to slow down then I'll take it easy.  But what about advancing to the next level?  Some required techniques are jumping, spinning, and jump & spin.  If one of your required forms contains a jumping spin kick from the sitting position, then aren't you expected to do it in order to advance to the next level.  IMO if your body is telling you not to do something then don't do it fast.  But if your instructors are telling you that you need to do it in order to advance, then I guess you have choice to make.  I too am 38 and am now carrying 20 extra pounds.  I'm still practing my jumps/spins but just a little slower and lower...for now.


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## tellner (Apr 25, 2007)

I can only quote the wisdom of my first Silat teacher. 

_*Your *** is a finite resource.
*_
The older you get, the more finite it becomes. The jumping spinning hard landing stuff is bad for you. You just don't know it at 25 the way you will at 55.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Apr 25, 2007)

tellner said:


> I can only quote the wisdom of my first Silat teacher.
> 
> _*Your *** is a finite resource.*_
> 
> The older you get, the more finite it becomes. The jumping spinning hard landing stuff is bad for you. You just don't know it at 25 the way you will at 55.


 
Nice!


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## zDom (Apr 25, 2007)

I was asked to work with our purple belts on jumping and flying kicks last week.

While I can still do all of them head high, I definately saw the writing on the wall: there is a day in my near future (five years from now? Maybe three?) when I won't be able to.

I used to be able to sky them up HIGHER than my head; now I can hit temple high for my height (6 foot) but only higher on a couple of them.

And some of the really sweet combination flying kicks  flying side/backside; double-front-round, and the like  I probably shouldn't attempt any more for safety's sake.

Being mortal sucks.


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## kidswarrior (Apr 25, 2007)

tellner said:


> I can only quote the wisdom of my first Silat teacher.
> 
> _*Your *** is a finite resource.
> *_


 :lfao:



> *The older you get, the more finite it becomes. The jumping spinning hard landing stuff is bad for you. You just don't know it at 25 the way you will at 55.*


 Oh, sure, put the 55-year-olds in the fine print. _Sheesh_. Talk about becoming invisible as you get older.... :lol:


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## kidswarrior (Apr 25, 2007)

shesulsa said:


> Well?  When will you stop jumping and spinning first?



*Immediately!! *

Oh, too late. I stopped 10 years ago after, I think, nine knee sprains and lots of joint pain (kind of my body warning me). Doesn't mean I don't have to still come home and ice my knees on the days I teach 3 1/2- 4 1/2 hours (after workng all day). But at least I can still walk, and even do MA. 




			
				Shaderon said:
			
		

> I agree in principal but there is "good" hurt and "bad" hurt. Good hurt is where you are pushing yourself and the _*muscles *_need to improve to cope, bad hurt is where you do yourself damage and should no longer push it. People can tell the difference with experience.



Exactly right. And Shaderon not only gave the way of discernment as an intuitive knowing (which I'm not disputing at all) but also implied the analytic answer: good pain is often muscle growth and stamina, or aerobic (heart and lung) capacity; bad pain is often, in my experience, joints (as tendons, ligaments, and for those of us who lack cartilage in some mandatory places, bone-on-bone grinding). In other words, good pain is to things that will heal; bad pain is to things that don't heal.


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## kidswarrior (Apr 25, 2007)

upnorthkyosa said:


> The sooner the better.  In fact, as teachers, if our objectives are to create an art that someone can practice with longevity, then we need to seriously rethink our curriculum.
> 
> I look at my own art, TSD, this is based upon Okinawan Karate which had practioners actively training in their golden years.  Did those guys practice jumping and spinning?  No.  Did they practice a heck of alot of other self defense skills other then jumping and spinning.  Hell yes!
> 
> I'm 30 years old.  I've been practicing martial arts for 20 years and TSD for 10.  Thinking about the above objective has caused me to totally rethink what I do.  Much of the jumping and spinning is now gone from the TSD that I practice.  Why?  Because I don't want to ask the question "when to stop jumping/spinning" 20 years from now when all of the damage is done.



*Yes, Yes, Yes!* Gotta think about a lifetime practitioner, which we teachers are responsible for guiding in the right direction.


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## tellner (Apr 25, 2007)

Just to add to kidswarrior's point, anything weight bearing takes a long time to heal if it ever does. An elbow or wrist? Not too bad. A shoulder? Months. A knee? Maybe never.


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## kidswarrior (Apr 26, 2007)

tellner said:


> Just to add to kidswarrior's point, anything weight bearing takes a long time to heal if it ever does. An elbow or wrist? Not too bad. A shoulder? Months. A knee? Maybe never.



And now that you mention it, the _feet_. They're at the bottom of the food chain. Broke one once with a stress fracture just from the length of a belt test, and other times for other reasons. Pain comes and goes, and can be managed mostly by training smart. But as tellner says: _Healing_? Maybe never completely.


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## Shaderon (Apr 26, 2007)

kidswarrior said:


> And now that you mention it, the _feet_. They're at the bottom of the food chain. Broke one once with a stress fracture just from the length of a belt test, and other times for other reasons. Pain comes and goes, and can be managed mostly by training smart. But as tellner says: _Healing_? Maybe never completely.


 

Yes the feet must be listened to, I am learning this the hard way with my right foot tendonitis, all from falling off a curb years ago.  I did a flying kick on Monday, landed on my right foot and had to hop for a minute (painlessly) as the darned thing gave way.   We all need to remember, the feet are involved in everything, if we don't look after them they'll affect everything!


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## Kacey (Apr 26, 2007)

From (if I remember correctly) an ad for a patent medicine that became Ben-Gay:  "pain is nature's way of telling you to slow down".  The greater the pain, the louder nature is yelling at you to slow down.  Listen to your pain... it will tell you when to stop jumping - forcefully, if you don't listen to the first warnings.


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## Jusus (Jul 7, 2007)

*Started TDK, at 51, Never learned how to do jump kicks. However I do worry about Injuries when training with younger parternes, I don't know how much this will give me problems when I test for higher belts. I'm currently a green belt, I would like to reach black some day, If any instructors out there would like to give me an opinion on what to do, to make up for this problems feel free to email.*

*Jusus. *


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## akskarate1 (Jul 8, 2007)

I would have to say it all depends one the day, like today would be a good day I just got off the trampoline with my kids.  A few days ago I though I felt like I was 100.  That day I took the opportunity to go over some of my Kenpo forms like I do my Tai Chi.  Listen to what your body tells you.


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