# Traffic Stop.....



## NARC (Jun 14, 2005)

%-} Not sure if this is the right forum to ask this question but here goes...Can someone explain why certain LEO insist on conducting their traffic stops facing the driver and on coming traffic?  I realize that you can see the driver and traffic but I still think it's a little risky.   %-}  
what ya think Chad?


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## GuruJim1 (Jun 21, 2005)

Narc,

Your right this is very risky, and it not very good officer safety. I speak on this matter as not just a Police Officer, but also as a Police Academy Instructor. I teach the standard driver side approach with the patrol car 5' back and 3' off center to protect the officer. However, I drill into my police cadets and officers I give officer safety course too, you must stand just behind the door jam. This forces the driver to look over their shoulder, and gives them limited view of the officer. If the driver has a weapon they are not so much of a target, and can move backwards to cover. Like I tell all the officers, we are the police, the driver knows we wont hurt them if they don't try to hurt us, but they can't make the same claim. 

Now, for the officers afriad of getting hit. I teach, and tell all of my students to get in the habit of doing. The passager side approach. This allow you to see the driver, and limits their movement for an attack. I have the driver to roll down their back window a pass the info out that way. If they try to pull a weapon the driver will have to go over the front seat buying the officer just a few more seconds. This tactic was taught by National Police Instructor Jim Korate. This tactic also put the officer on the side of the car away from traffic making it better for the officer. If I have reason to believe that their is something more about the stop that I need to see more than just the back seat. I can carefully move to the passager side window making them roll that one down, or just look through the window (I do this one alot). Officer Safety Tactics are alway fresh in my mind because I teach it, and I wont to go home without extra hole in my body.

Now, the academys years ago did teach the tactic you spoke of. I was also taught that tactic in my police academy. I though the tactic die out because its no longer taught at my academy, and I haven't seen that done in years. I hope that traffic stop tactic make like the dodo bird. This is only a quick post, and I hoped I answered your question. 

Hormat saya,
JIM


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## arnisador (Jun 21, 2005)

The passenger side back window? That seems very awkward, especially if the windows aren't automatic. What if it's an older person who is stiff in the joints and can't reach back there?


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## GuruJim1 (Jun 21, 2005)

Thats why you adjust. If not an automatic window then move to the passager's window or even open the door. It actually not as awkward as you may think. This has been proven to work time and time again. If an older person open the passager door, most older people can at least open the passager door. If you are an LEO I would attend Jim Korate's Advanced Traffic Stops class. I can't talk about an 8 hour class in just a post. I have used these tactics and I feel they are a safer. However, somtimes you need to make the driver side approach. Some police feel the 5 and 3 is the greatest thing. But I like angling the patrol car off to the side to use the patrol's car engine block as cover.


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## arnisador (Jun 21, 2005)

I'm not an LEO--just curious. The BJJ class in which I train has many LEOs and so topics like this come up often!


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## TonyU (Jun 22, 2005)

Hi GuruJim1,
I'm an LEO here in NJ, also an instructor in the academy. You're desciption or approach is also taught here and agree as the way to go.
One has to understand though that we as instructors may teach a technique and then the recruits graduate and do what the hell they want anyway.
Many times in the academy I've taught not to do certaing things, then see them hit the road and do the things I told them no to.
I guess I'm just not a good teacher.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jun 22, 2005)

I prefer the standard passenger side approach myself.


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## Tgace (Jun 22, 2005)

During midnights the rear pass. side approach is great. You walk around the back of the squad and up to the pass side rear. You get to watch the person looking for you in the mirrior wondering WTF? Sometimes you also see him hiding the dope or getting the gun. You get to visually clear the vehicle then decide where you want to do busniess.


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## NARC (Jun 22, 2005)

For those who have not attended a class given by Jim Korate you're really missing out I have seen him twice for Mental Preperation for Armed Encounters and he does a great job.  I have not been to his Traffic Stop Class, however sounds interesting.  Our Academy does teach the "Driver's Side approach" and "Passenger Side" as an option the last time I knew.
 %-} 
"Punch'em,Kick'em, Stab'em,Shoot'em and then check'em for a pulse"


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## Jerry (Jun 22, 2005)

> However, I drill into my police cadets and officers I give officer safety course too, you must stand just behind the door jam. This forces the driver to look over their shoulder, and gives them limited view of the officer. If the driver has a weapon they are not so much of a target, and can move backwards to cover.


 Of course, you now have your side to the rear-seat-passangers, and (though unlikely) the trunk; not to mention you can't see if someone comes up to your patrol car, or sneaks around the back of the vehicle.

Standing just in front of the driver door would give you view of all four doors, and the trunk, and your own vehicle. 

I have not considered it very heavily (the only LEO work I've done has been from horseback), but it seems the technique you suggest has it's own disadvantages (particularly that you have to keep moving your view to watch that guy inches from you in the rear seat).

Of course, that's why it's useful to get them out and bring them to the rear of the vehicle.


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## still learning (Jun 22, 2005)

Hello, In Hawaii it seems when the police pulls you over they always approach from the rear to the driver side of the door and then ask for ID. They prefer you do not come out of the car unless they ask you to.( Mostly DUI's.)

 Be very agreeable and do what they ask! Be honest too! It usually makes things easier on both sides. Got tickets.....lets go to the ball game? 


   No seat belts the fine is $92.00 over here.....Aloha


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## OUMoose (Jun 23, 2005)

GuruJim1 said:
			
		

> If not an automatic window then move to the passager's window or even open the door.


Just curious about this after reading your post.  If there is no one in the back seat nor passenger seat, do you ask to open the door or just open it?  Personally, I would consider it an invasion of privacy for a LEO to do anything but come on the driver side and ask for my paperwork unless I was suspect for something else, which he/she better clearly state.  

*shrug*  just an opinion.


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## Tgace (Jun 23, 2005)

OUMoose said:
			
		

> Just curious about this after reading your post. If there is no one in the back seat nor passenger seat, do you ask to open the door or just open it? Personally, I would consider it an invasion of privacy for a LEO to do anything but come on the driver side and ask for my paperwork unless I was suspect for something else, which he/she better clearly state.
> 
> *shrug* just an opinion.


Then you tell the driver to roll down the front pass. window. Or make them lean over and crank it down by hand. Making it "easy" on the driver isnt a requirement. 

Added advantage to the pass. side approach is that most escape routes (for the officer) and cover is on the curb side of the vehicle.


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## Tgace (Jun 23, 2005)

OUMoose said:
			
		

> I would consider it an invasion of privacy for a LEO to do anything but come on the driver side and ask for my paperwork unless I was suspect for something else, which he/she better clearly state.
> 
> *shrug* just an opinion.


Well..I would eventually state my reason. But some people start demanding "what did I do? What did I do?" and refuse to get out of the vehicle or follow commands. Im not about to tell the driver "hey I see that large hunting knife/revolver in the glove box" or "I see that Cocaine in the ashtray." Its an invitation for them to drive away or shoot or resist. The time to file a complaint or lawsuit is after the contact is over, not during, you have no idea what the officer sees, believes (you may match the description of a robbery suspect) or knows (your license/registration may be suspended and you dont know it yet).

As to opening the car door. I always tell the driver to "either roll down the window or open the door".


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## GuruJim1 (Jun 25, 2005)

TonyU you are correct, officers will do what the hell they want to do. As an instructor I feel my biggest enemy is TV. They see COPS (I alway yell at that show, but the wife and kid likes it) where I have seen some very big officer saftey issues. However, if it on TV it must be the way Officers should do things. 

The biggest thing about the pass. side approach on the night shift is the fake partner. Its very dark out side and all your bright lights are preventing the driver from see anything behind them. The Officer get out and go around the patrol car and yell, "Hey Bill I got this one!" then make your pass. side approach. Now the driver feels that you are the partner and you have another Officer back there covering you. Since the driver can't see they will have to assume there is. I have bought some time in many stick stops like that, by just saying, "Hey Bill, ready the bean bag shotgun!" The great thing about the bean bag is that it is less-lethal and officers will shot you with it, if nessary. This has bought me enough time until real back arrives. Nice to see all the LEO putting in their comments. Officers be safe out there.


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## Drac (Jun 25, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> During midnights the rear pass. side approach is great. You walk around the back of the squad and up to the pass side rear. You get to watch the person looking for you in the mirrior wondering WTF? Sometimes you also see him hiding the dope or getting the gun. You get to visually clear the vehicle then decide where you want to do busniess.


That's how I do it..


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## GuruJim1 (Jun 25, 2005)

OUMOOSE:
Just curious about this after reading your post. If there is no one in the back seat nor passenger seat, do you ask to open the door or just open it? Personally, I would consider it an invasion of privacy for a LEO to do anything but come on the driver side and ask for my paperwork unless I was suspect for something else, which he/she better clearly state.

OUMoose,

The Supreme Court ruled on this matter, and LEO's can make those request, and ID everyone in the vehicle which I do, if I suspect something. I have found many felony warrants that way. Officers do have the right to search the areas in the driver's control or lunge areas. I never state any reason other than telling them I pull them over for speeding,or another violation. If I pull over a robbery suspect, he thinks I know he is a robbery suspect. By telling them about a violaton make them think they are getting off with just a ticket. Tgace is right, I'm not going to tell them I saw their drugs, or the car is reported stolen. Look at the Female Officer that did just that. She almost die from the attack by a male suspect, but ended up with mental plates, and screws. Another example would be the Alabama Male Officer that was assaulted by a male DUI suspect. I always tell them, I'm going to quickly run your information and then I will decide on what to do. Then when back up arrives, its a whole new ball game.

Jerry: 
Of course, you now have your side to the rear-seat-passangers, and (though unlikely) the trunk; not to mention you can't see if someone comes up to your patrol car, or sneaks around the back of the vehicle.

Jerry,

Your thinking and thats great. If you do the driver's side approach and someone is in the driver's side backseat. Then stop just behind the door jam of the rear door. Then ask the driver to pass the info to their passager then to you. The same would be true if you did the pass. side approach. If you did walk all the way to the front of the vehicle and faced them you can see all that, your right. But you pass all of them giving them all a chance to open the door knocking you into traffic, or to shoot you. They are a clear target, but so are you. Doing it the way I said gives you more escape routs, and better chance to come out alive.

Side Note:

When I do traffic stops I don't care about your comfort. I just care about myself going home at the end of the shift. Most people put on a suit before going to work, we put on a Vest to stop bullets, and a gun to fight back. When most people tell their loved ones, "I'll see you after work" they mean it, we hope it's true. When someone with a CCW premit carrys a weapon to protect them self from an attack that may, or may not ever happen, we go out looking for the bad guy and it will happen to us. We have a dangerous job, and we all know the risk. By using good sound techniques we can have reduce those risk. When you are pulled over, you know who we are, but we don't know you. I went through a background check (talk about no privacy), Psyc exam, Polygraph exam, and so on just to make sure I'm the highest qualty preson. The private person can't say the same. It's not that we think your a criminal, we just want to go end our shift the safest way possible. For the community to understand that, and to do what they are told will end with a possitive out come. Yeah, you may get a ticket, but that is my job protecting you even from yourself.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jun 26, 2005)

GuruJim1 said:
			
		

> OUMOOSE:
> Just curious about this after reading your post. If there is no one in the back seat nor passenger seat, do you ask to open the door or just open it? Personally, I would consider it an invasion of privacy for a LEO to do anything but come on the driver side and ask for my paperwork unless I was suspect for something else, which he/she better clearly state.
> 
> OUMoose,
> ...


Amen brother.

A note about the passenger side approach.  According to studies conducted on driver and passenger side approaches using real officers and simulated traffic stops, officers missed an "armed subject" laying the back seat 88% of the time on driver's side approaches.  On passenger side approaches nearly every officer observed the armed subject in the backseat.  It's likely a result of the fact that on the driver's side approach, the officers attention is on the driver, who is clearly visible in his field of vision, thereby becoming the sole focus.  On a passenger side approach, the officer has to lower his view to see the driver, therefore taking in far more of the interior of the car to see the driver.


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## Drac (Aug 12, 2005)

GuruJim1 said:
			
		

> OUMooseWhen I do traffic stops I don't care about your comfort. I just care about myself going home at the end of the shift


Wise words..I equate that to the same people who complain about the handcuffs..They weren't designed for comfort..


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## dearnis.com (Aug 16, 2005)

Found this one late...
 The facing driver/oncoming traffic position is useful when runiing pack radar; the police vehicle doesn't move and the cars are manually directed to wherever you have room to stack them up.  Not the safest, not good for high risk, but sometimes the only option you have in high volume traffic enforcement.
  On a standard stop, to the extent there is such a thing, passenger side is the way to go.
   Some good thoughts on vehicle positioning above; on tractor trailers I do tend to pull around and position 15 yards or so ahead once the truck is stopped; his mass portects me from oncoming traffic better than anything else I can find!.


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