# Help me choose a self defense walking cane



## Alan0354

Hi

I am new here and I am new in learning self defense with walking cane. I have question on what cane to choose. I started out buying a cheap wood crook cane from Amazon, I tried hitting on heavy kicking bag and I broke it in like a minute, it just crack in the middle!! So I went to rattan cane, the first I got is 7/8” diameter, it’s very light and flex a lot, It’s only about 6oz and is skinless. I don’t trust it, so I hunted for a thicker ones. I finally bought 3 rattan sticks that are like 1.05” to 1.1” diameter that are with skin and knots un-sanded. I cut them down to 30”, 31” and 32” for practicing. They are still quite heavy, all about 12oz. each. They are quite stiff, I can lean on it with my weight and it only flex very slightly. I thought this is definitely good enough for self defense……..

BUT, then I started reading more. I read that rattan is only good for using in the class where it is safer as it won’t hurt as much if accidentally hitting the partner!!! This is NOT what I want, I want it for self defense. They suggested using for hard wood sticks. My first problem is I don’t trust wood canes from my experience of cracking when hitting the heavy bag.

Also, they said hardwood cane is heavier. My question is how heavy are those 28” hard wood escrima sticks? I want to compare the weight with my canes. If I calculate my rattan canes(12oz.) down to a 28” escrima stick, it’s going to be like 9oz. They are definitely heavier than the few escrima sticks I have ( 6oz to 7oz). What is a typical weight of hard wood stick that is 28” long?

Bottom line, I want to know whether what I have are good enough for self defense, or do I have to go buy a hardwood walking cane.

Thanks

Alan


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## Tony Dismukes

I'll let others chime in with the best hardwood options, but I wanted to make it clear that you *can* do serious damage with a rattan stick (up to and including concussions and broken bones), assuming that you have decent technique and are using a relatively substantial piece of rattan. Maybe not as much as a heavier chunk of an appropriate hardwood might do, but still enough to be effective.

The real advantage to rattan for training is that when a stick does eventually wear out from the rigors of extensive practice hitting things, rattan will just gradually soften and turn to mush, while a piece of hardwood may splinter and break, leaving a jagged point which you might inadvertently skewer your training partner with.


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## Alan0354

Thanks for the reply. Is rattan with skin stiffer and more durable than without skin of the same size?

I first bought a 7/8" diameter cane with no skin, it's flexible, I can bend it with my hands. But the 3 cane with skin that are 1 1/10"(1.1") diameter is a lot stiffer. I can barely bend ever so slightly with my hands. It's almost double the weight of the 7/8" skinless one. I don't think the 7/8" skinless one can be used for self defense.

Took me a while to find one that is 1.1" diameter, I thought it should be good enough until I read an old thread here. 12oz might not sounds like a lot, but it's a huge difference when twirling and swinging compare with the normal rattan escrima sticks. I want to know what is the weight of a hardwood stick.


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## Xue Sheng

Virtually anything that is mahogany and one piece

or






						Self-Defense Canes | Self Defense Walking Cane | Cane Masters
					

Cane Masters offers handcrafted custom American hardwood canes and self-defense systems using the cane for martial artists, seniors, and the disabled.




					canemasters.com


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## drop bear

Do they still make bubba sticks?

I have just always wanted one.


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## Brian King

Hello Alan0354,
Welcome to Martial Talk. 
Quick question, do you need the cane for support and aid- or - are you just interested in learning how to use and to carry for self-defense? 
If you like working with wood, metal, and your hands then it is often pleasurable to make your own stick out of hardwood of choice and trimmed with metal of choice. If not crafty, there are all kinds of 'unbreakable' synthetics for sale. 
Good luck with your search and experimentations. Let us know what you decide on.
If I remember correctly there are a few nice threads on self defense with a cane on martial talk that you can research for your enjoyment and perhaps some training ideas.
Warmest Regards
Brian King


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## Alan0354

Thanks for the replies, I first want to know what is a typical weight of a hard wood escrima stick that is 1" diameter and 28" long. I have a hard time getting this info.

Thanks


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## jobo

Alan0354 said:


> Thanks for the replies, I first want to know what is a typical weight of a hard wood escrima stick that is 1" diameter and 28" long. I have a hard time getting this info.
> 
> Thanks


it seems an academic question to be honest,  if you hit someone with a 12 oz stick , the weight of a reasonable claw hammer, your likely to do significant damage,  the problem you have is actualy making contact and not killing them if you do, a heavier cane wont solve either of those issues


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## wab25

Self Defense Cane
					

The wooden Kingfisher Self defense cane is designed as a walking cane but combines the best attributes of a mobility aid with the best features of a defensive staff. Made of quality grade L7 Appalachian hickory, the SD cane is tough and reliable.




					kingfisherwoodworks.com
				




They also make hiking sticks, but you were asking about a cane...

I have a hanbo that they made, and it is excellent quality. 

This guy reviews bokkens, by breaking them on a tree. Note that he is not able to break the Kingfisher Bokken:





He usually does break the bokken, so he can show you what to expect when they do break when practicing. Skip to 5:10 in this video to see this one break on the first hard hit.





If you want to be able to hit with it, choose hickory. There is a reason that hammers, axes and picks use hickory handles.


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## Alan0354

jobo said:


> it seems an academic question to be honest,  if you hit someone with a 12 oz stick , the weight of a reasonable claw hammer, your likely to do significant damage,  the problem you have is actualy making contact and not killing them if you do, a heavier cane wont solve either of those issues


Thanks for the reply, the reason I ask is also because I read all the posts about sticks here, they are said use rattan because it's lighter and more flexible, it's good for sparing. BUT if doing solo drill and swinging, use a heavier hardwood stick for *strength practice*. So I want to know what is the weight of the hardwood stick so I can know whether my 12oz stick is heavy enough to represent the hardwood stick.

I have rattan escrima sticks also, even when they are a little over 1" diameter, all are below 7oz. My canes are quite heavy, even when I calculate for a 28" stick, it calculated to 9.8oz. This means if a 28" hardwood stick people use for solo practice is under 10oz, then I don't even have to go buy a hardwood stick for strength practice. Thereby I ask the question.

I don't know about you guys, to me swinging a 7oz stick is a whole hell of a lot easier than a 9.8oz, it's day and night difference even though it's only less than 3oz more. I can swing and twirl much faster, making all the wooping sound and all with a 7oz stick, it's tiring using my canes.

Thanks


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## Alan0354

wab25 said:


> Self Defense Cane
> 
> 
> The wooden Kingfisher Self defense cane is designed as a walking cane but combines the best attributes of a mobility aid with the best features of a defensive staff. Made of quality grade L7 Appalachian hickory, the SD cane is tough and reliable.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> kingfisherwoodworks.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They also make hiking sticks, but you were asking about a cane...
> 
> I have a hanbo that they made, and it is excellent quality.
> 
> This guy reviews bokkens, by breaking them on a tree. Note that he is not able to break the Kingfisher Bokken:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He usually does break the bokken, so he can show you what to expect when they do break when practicing. Skip to 5:10 in this video to see this one break on the first hard hit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you want to be able to hit with it, choose hickory. There is a reason that hammers, axes and picks use hickory handles.


Yeh, I don't hike, it would be funny to go to a restaurant with a hiking stick. I use it purely as self defense. I am a Chinese, seeing all the attacks on Chinese lately, I have to do something to protect myself. I am 68, so it won't look funny carrying a walking cane.

I learned kick boxing type for a few years long long time ago, never really practice stick fighting until now. I started watching youtubes and pick out some practical moves, learning how to swing. I stay away from the fancy twirling stuffs and concentrate on swinging and footwork. Just use what I learn before in kick boxing footwork and learn more different footwork on youtube. I found the footwork of MMA is particular interesting going in and out, side to side. Never stay in one position, nothing formal stepping like traditional martial arts.

Thanks


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## wab25

Alan0354 said:


> Yeh, I don't hike, it would be funny to go to a restaurant with a hiking stick.


That is why the link I provided was to a cane for self defense (and also walking around) and not to the hiking sticks. I just mentioned them in case someone was interested. These canes are made for heavy contact, just like the rest of the wooden weapons they make. But they are also made to be pretty decent canes as well.


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## jobo

Alan0354 said:


> Yeh, I don't hike, it would be funny to go to a restaurant with a hiking stick. I use it purely as self defense. I am a Chinese, seeing all the attacks on Chinese lately, I have to do something to protect myself. I am 68, so it won't look funny carrying a walking cane.
> 
> I learned kick boxing type for a few years long long time ago, never really practice stick fighting until now. I started watching youtubes and pick out some practical moves, learning how to swing. I stay away from the fancy twirling stuffs and concentrate on swinging and footwork. Just use what I learn before in kick boxing footwork and learn more different footwork on youtube. I found the footwork of MMA is particular interesting going in and out, side to side. Never stay in one position, nothing formal stepping like traditional martial arts.
> 
> Thanks


that seem like a lot of money for a bit of wood

you do know it grows on trees


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## drop bear

jobo said:


> that seem like a lot of money for a bit of wood
> 
> you do know it grows on trees


Labour costs. And experience.






Same reason people pay for a wedding photographer.


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## Dirty Dog

drop bear said:


> Labour costs.


And skilled labour costs more.


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## drop bear

Dirty Dog said:


> And skilled labour costs more.



Yeah. I just added that on as I thought of it.


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## Alan0354

Thanks *wab25* for the suggestion. I am actually more interested in comparing rattan vs wood and the weight difference. I actually have a lot of canes already. Everything is still close in my area, I am pretty much like living on an island when I start choosing what kind of materials for the cane.

Because of my bad experience with my first wood crook cane, I am reluctant to buy any wood canes. The wood cane I bought lasted less than a minute hitting the heavy kicking bag before it crack into two pieces!!! So I concentrate in rattan and other synthetic material canes. I found I like rattan more as the synthetic ones are really heavy. I choose rattan over the synthetic ones because I can choose a really thick rattan cane for better grip. I found the 1.1" diameter rattan cane with is quite perfect. It's a big difference how it feels between a 1.1" and 1".

Actually I have two other synthetic material cane,
1) Cold Steel City Stick Walking Stick 37.6" Overall Length, Aluminum Head - 91STA 705442009139 | eBay
I actually modified to look very much like the one you suggested as the silver knob is too eye catching. Also, it doesn't hang on the table. So I actually fabricate my own handle. As is, it's 12oz, the weight is good and it is STIFF!! This one can hit hard, it doesn't vibrate. Problem is the stick is only 3/4" diameter. I have to put a foam tube to increase the diameter for better gripping. Which make it kind of funny looking. I want something that doesn't attract attention. I show the picture below on the left side labeled (1).

2)United Cutlery 39" Adjustable Walking Black Molded Nylon Shaft Cane 3129 760729312968 | eBay
I cut the hook and shorten it so it doesn't stand out. This one is very heavy. Even after cut to size and actually drill a 3/8" deep hole at the end to reduce weight, still weight in at a whopping 18oz. It's too heavy for single hand. It is shown in (3) and (4) in the picture.  I practice two hand fighting like Japanese Katana with this. That's a different story for another thread. (3) is the cane for self defense, (4) has padding for hitting the heavy bags. Also, it's only 15/16" diameter, too thin to have a good grip with one hand.

I also put pads on a rattan stick(2) for hitting bags. I don't want to destroy my heavy bags if I use sticks without padding.





Thanks


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## drop bear

drop bear said:


> Labour costs. And experience.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Same reason people pay for a wedding photographer.



Sorry. That isn’t as good. Apparently it can take a year to dry the wood.






						How to Dry Wood for Walking Sticks
					

How to Dry Wood for Walking Sticks. When you make your own walking sticks, you must choose between using dry wood or green wood. Using green wood often results in stronger, more customizable finished products, but the wood must dry completely before you can stain or seal it. Working with green...




					homeguides.sfgate.com
				




Or not. I don't know. I buy them off people who do know.


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## jobo

drop bear said:


> Labour costs. And experience.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Same reason people pay for a wedding photographer.


I didnt,  I didnt have photos at all I was there, what do I want to look at pictures for


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## drop bear

jobo said:


> I didnt,  I didnt have photos at all I was there, what do I want to look at pictures for


Normal people.


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## Alan0354

jobo said:


> that seem like a lot of money for a bit of wood
> 
> you do know it grows on trees


What are you talking about? I have no interest in making my own cane. I let people that know how to make it to do it.

I watched part of the video, I don't like those sticks at all, it's all over the place, it's like taking down a branch, shave off small branches, scrape the skin, smooth it out and stain it. I don't see any skill in it. I am looking for straight stick, same diameter, same length so when I practice, I know how far it reaches and what to expect.

It's a lot more steps to make a straight stick, you need a huge lathe to start. Other than the lathe, I have everything in my workshop, just don't want to make my own.


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## Alan0354

I forgot to put my rattan cane in the picture, here is a picture showing the rattan cane with the other two synthetic cane. The main reason I still like the rattan cane ( in the middle) because I managed to find 3 with 1.1" diameter. Look at how much thicker compare to the other two. I don't need to add foam grip, it's comfortable to hold as is.

I need to add the foam grip to the one on the left. The one on the right is too thin for one hand, this is the one I practice two hand swing like the Japanese Katana. That's why I have it the longest.

Those two synthetic sticks are HARD, they don't give when hit something hard and they sure can take a good beating. But for day in day out carry, I still like the rattan. Key is to find one that is 1.1" or over in diameter to give it the weight and stiffness.

I guess at this point, I got most of the answers:

1) Wood cracks and sprinter, rattan last longer but with the same diameter, it has less stopping power.
2) People use rattan for sparing, but use heavier wood sticks for solo practice to build strength.

That's why it really comes down to the only question: *what is the typical weight of a 28" long 1"diameter hardwood stick*. I need to know to see whether my cane is heavy enough for practicing strength or I really need to buy a wood cane for that.

I don't think stiffness of my cane is an issue because of the thickness.

I will start another thread to ask how to build up forehand strength to swing the cane better. 

Thanks


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## Brian King

Nice looking canes @Alan0354 
I do not know the specific weight you are wanting to know, sorry.  I think by far the more important metric is grip comfort. Find a cane that fits length wise for you and feels good to your hand, then get two of them. One to train with and one for the town.  Practice with it by learning accuracy which is more difficult to achieve with a cane that is too heavy for you.  Good luck with your training and I hope that you never have need of it. 
A nice older thread on cane for self defense




__





						Input on using a cane for self defense?
					

Some of my older Escrima students have asked me to teach them how to use a cane or walking stick for self-defense. I've shown them a little so far and they like it.  The curious thing is that I have a very different idea about how to use a cane than 95% of the stuff (garbage?) I find on youtube...



					www.martialtalk.com
				




Regards
Brian King


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## Tony Dismukes

Alan0354 said:


> I need to know to see whether my cane is heavy enough for practicing strength or I really need to buy a wood cane for that.


There isn’t any set weight which is necessarily appropriate for building strength. It depends on where you currently are as an individual. If you can swing a stick full power for an extended period of time and don’t feel any muscle burn or fatigue, then it’s too light for you as a strength building tool. If you swing it a few times and feel like you’re in danger of hurting your joints or developing tendinitis, then it’s probably too heavy for where you are right now. If you do a workout with the stick and end up with tired, burning muscles, then maybe you’ve found a good weight for an exercise tool. Listen to your body.


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## jobo

Alan0354 said:


> What are you talking about? I have no interest in making my own cane. I let people that know how to make it to do it.
> 
> I watched part of the video, I don't like those sticks at all, it's all over the place, it's like taking down a branch, shave off small branches, scrape the skin, smooth it out and stain it. I don't see any skill in it. I am looking for straight stick, same diameter, same length so when I practice, I know how far it reaches and what to expect.
> 
> It's a lot more steps to make a straight stick, you need a huge lathe to start. Other than the lathe, I have everything in my workshop, just don't want to make my own.


what advantage does straightness give you? as long as it straight ish, then it as good at either being a walking aid or a club as something that has been on a lathe

I was just pointing out that 200 dollars or so for a bit of wood seems excessive to me, such things ate available in the uk in shops in walking country for about 30 quid, which also seems excessive it you do plan to use only as a walking aid


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## jobo

drop bear said:


> Normal people.


well perhaps so, I applied logic to it,  the 500 quid I was quoted seemed an excessive amount of money for photos I was probebly only going to look at once, or at best every few decades, I dont know of anyone who goes through their wedding album every month
as it is the marriage didbt last long enough to warrant a nostalgic review of the photos so I dodged a bullet there

I did get some snaps that friends had taken,  but I only looked at them once,

I view marriage as a holy union in front of and calibrated by friends and family, in other words a party, so I spent the money on the guests instead, every one had a great time


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## frank raud

Alan0354 said:


> That's why it really comes down to the only question: *what is the typical weight of a 28" long 1"diameter hardwood stick*. I need to know to see whether my cane is heavy enough for practicing strength or I really need to buy a wood cane for that.
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 26661


Perhaps the reason you're not getting an answer to your question is what kind of hardwood are you referring to? Mahogany? Hickory? Maple, Coco Bolo, Teak, Oak? Each one will have a different density and a different weight. I don't have the answer you're looking for, but expecting an precise answer on a general question doesn't help.


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## Alan0354

jobo said:


> what advantage does straightness give you? as long as it straight ish, then it as good at either being a walking aid or a club as something that has been on a lathe
> 
> I was just pointing out that 200 dollars or so for a bit of wood seems excessive to me, such things ate available in the uk in shops in walking country for about 30 quid, which also seems excessive it you do plan to use only as a walking aid


Who's talking about a 200 dollar cane here? I sure did not pay anywhere close to that. The rattan is $39 ea. The United Cutlery is $47. The most expensive is the Cold Steel that is $77. These two are synthetic canes.

I don't need a cane to walk, I still can run around, still practicing kick boxing on heavy bag and doing weight lifting. Walking is my last concern. These are weapon disguise as walking cane as I am 68. My first concern of the cane is don't attract attention. Everything I've done on the cane ( just as much work as making those canes in your video) is to take a weapon to make it inconspicuous. I went through paint stripping, refinishing and staining to make a fighting rattan cane looks like a walking cane. I even fabricated a whole handle of the Cold Steel stick to replace the shinny aluminum knob to make it look ordinary.

Those tree stump cane you show just draws attention.


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## jobo

Alan0354 said:


> Who's talking about a 200 dollar cane here? I sure did not pay anywhere close to that. The rattan is $39 ea. The United Cutlery is $47. The most expensive is the Cold Steel that is $77. These two are synthetic canes.
> 
> I don't need a cane to walk, I still can run around, still practicing kick boxing on heavy bag and doing weight lifting. Walking is my last concern. These are weapon disguise as walking cane as I am 68. My first concern of the cane is don't attract attention. Everything I've done on the cane ( just as much work as making those canes in your video) is to take a weapon to make it inconspicuous. I went through paint stripping, refinishing and staining to make a fighting rattan cane looks like a walking cane. I even fabricated a whole handle of the Cold Steel stick to replace the shinny aluminum knob to make it look ordinary.
> 
> Those tree stump cane you show just draws attention.


 i didnt post a video and the person talking about a 200 dollar cane is the guy who posted a link to a near 200 dollar cane
as it is you haven't bought a 200 dollar cane, you bough three canes for a 150 with at least one more to come, it seems so you will likely have more than exceeded 200 before you finish, it may have been better if you'd just bought the 200 dollar one to start off with


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## Alan0354

jobo said:


> i didnt post a video and the person talking about a 200 dollar cane is the guy who posted a link to a near 200 dollar cane
> as it is you haven't bought a 200 dollar cane, you bough three canes for a 150 with at least one more to come, it seems so you will likely have more than exceeded 200 before you finish, it may have been better if you'd just bought the 200 dollar one to start off with


Then why talking to me about a $200 cane? 

Don't you ever experiment with different canes to find the right one? You don't change the length and weight  of the cane as you improve? Just because you pay $200 for one cane and it will be perfect from the start to the end? I did A LOT of research, I doubt you can find one I've never seen before. The only expensive ones are just better decorations, carving and finishing, nothing to do with the usefulness of the cane. A good carving cane doesn't not make it a better cane as weapon.


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## jobo

Alan0354 said:


> Then why talking to me about a $200 cane?
> 
> Don't you ever experiment with different canes to find the right one? You don't change the length and weight  of the cane as you improve? Just because you pay $200 for one cane and it will be perfect from the start to the end? I did A LOT of research, I doubt you can find one I've never seen before. The only expensive ones are just better decorations, carving and finishing, nothing to do with the usefulness of the cane. A good carving cane doesn't not make it a better cane as weapon.


I was only talking to you in the general that I was taking to everybody,  and that seems unfortunately to include you

no I've never experimented with different canes, I dont feel the need to carry a weapon, if I did I'd find a better one that a walking stick


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## geezer

Alan0354 said:


> I don't think stiffness of my cane is an issue because of the thickness.


I'm of about your age and I've collected a few canes for self defense too. Love working with them. And IMO as long as you can say what's quoted above with a straight face, you don't have anything to worry about.


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## Alan0354

geezer said:


> I'm of about your age and I've collected a few canes for self defense too. Love working with them. And IMO as long as you can say what's quoted above with a straight face, you don't have anything to worry about.


Thanks Geezer.

*Brian King *gave me the link to your post:Input on using a cane for self defense?

I read through it, I agree with you and I find your post really helpful. You tough into some very important things:

1) People think if they get a cane, they can protect themselves. If they are weak, the attacker can take the cane over and use it against them!!! If I have to depend on the cane to walk, I would even avoid carrying a cane!! Also, people think they can just carry a cane and they are safer, they better practice before they start carrying it. Lately, I spent an extra 2 to 3 hours a week practice using the cane. I am going to spend at least like 4 months to get the basics down.

2) I am very careful to make the cane looks inconspicuous. It's the lawsuit and police I don't want to deal with afterwards. The rattan canes I have seems to be the closest, thick enough to give me a good grip, light enough I can swing fast enough. Look so ordinary nobody will think twice looking at it.

3) Too bad all the stick fighting schools are closed, I have to learn it on my own using my pass experience in Tae Kwon Do and kick boxing. I watch escrima fighting videos, I notice in real fight, they don't use any fancy twirling and swinging. Their strikes are very simple and straight forward. It's the FOOTWORK that really matters. It seems it's not very practical to do stick blocking, paring and it's too fast in real life. So I spend more time in footwork to avoid being hit instead of trying to block. At my age and with no partners, I don't think I have the reflex to do any blocking. I just keep everything very simple.

I really need to take some lessons instead of guessing. But it's going to be a long time before that will happen.

I guess I am not very good in asking questions. I kept asking how heavy are the hard wood sticks. My question should  really be:  " *How heavy a stick I need to swing comfortably before I can be considered strong enough?*" It's not very useful if I swing a normal rattan escrima stick that is only 6 to 7oz fast, hit the attacker and the attacker just look at me!!! I need a gauge to check my strength.

Thanks


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## jobo

Alan0354 said:


> Thanks Geezer.
> 
> *Brian King *gave me the link to your post:Input on using a cane for self defense?
> 
> I read through it, I agree with you and I find your post really helpful. You tough into some very important things:
> 
> 1) People think if they get a cane, they can protect themselves. If they are weak, the attacker can take the cane over and use it against them!!! If I have to depend on the cane to walk, I would even avoid carrying a cane!! Also, people think they can just carry a cane and they are safer, they better practice before they start carrying it. Lately, I spent an extra 2 to 3 hours a week practice using the cane. I am going to spend at least like 4 months to get the basics down.
> 
> 2) I am very careful to make the cane looks inconspicuous. It's the lawsuit and police I don't want to deal with afterwards. The rattan canes I have seems to be the closest, thick enough to give me a good grip, light enough I can swing fast enough. Look so ordinary nobody will think twice looking at it.
> 
> 3) Too bad all the stick fighting schools are closed, I have to learn it on my own using my pass experience in Tae Kwon Do and kick boxing. I watch escrima fighting videos, I notice in real fight, they don't use any fancy twirling and swinging. Their strikes are very simple and straight forward. It's the FOOTWORK that really matters. It seems it's not very practical to do stick blocking, paring and it's too fast in real life. So I spend more time in footwork to avoid being hit instead of trying to block. At my age and with no partners, I don't think I have the reflex to do any blocking. I just keep everything very simple.
> 
> I really need to take some lessons instead of guessing. But it's going to be a long time before that will happen.
> 
> I guess I am not very good in asking questions. I kept asking how heavy are the hard wood sticks. My question should  really be:  " *How heavy a stick I need to swing comfortably before I can be considered strong enough?*" It's not very useful if I swing a normal rattan escrima stick that is only 6 to 7oz fast, hit the attacker and the attacker just look at me!!! I need a gauge to check my strength.
> 
> Thanks


it's not really a strengh thing , it's a speed thing, the faster its moving when it hits him the more damage it will do, I hit someone with a 10oz stick,  it knocked him over and broke his eye socket, how much damage do you want to do?


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## drop bear

jobo said:


> it's not really a strengh thing , it's a speed thing, the faster its moving when it hits him the more damage it will do, I hit someone with a 10oz stick,  it knocked him over and broke his eye socket, how much damage do you want to do?



It depends where you want to hit them. So you might next time, get a heavier stick and hit them in the leg. And not permanently injure someone.


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## jobo

drop bear said:


> It depends where you want to hit them. So you might next time, get a heavier stick and hit them in the leg. And not permanently injure someone.


the same weight would have wrecked his leg, there is a sweet spot,  to heavy and it's harder to accelerate, so more mass ,less velocity and easier to avoid,


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## Alan0354

jobo said:


> it's not really a strengh thing , it's a speed thing, the faster its moving when it hits him the more damage it will do, I hit someone with a 10oz stick,  it knocked him over and broke his eye socket, how much damage do you want to do?


That's a good point. 10oz is a good weight, how about 6oz which is a typical weight for rattan escrima sticks? Not only it's light, it flex also. I doubt those have stopping power. So the question is how heavy is heavy enough.

That also raise a question about whether a thicker stick is better or worst than a thinner stick of the same weight. I think air resistance does play a part in it. For example comparing the Cold Steel on the left to the rattan on the right:




They are both 12oz. But the Cold Steel makes a higher pitch whopping sound when swing than the thicken rattan. My guess is the thinner Cold Steel has less air resistance and thereby gain the speed faster.

I can tell you, if I don't have to have the foam grip on the Cold Steel cane, it would be the best cane as it is HARD and strong. Problem is it's only 3/4" diameter and it's much harder to grip than the big 1.1" diameter rattan. The foam grip draw attention, try explain to police why I put a grip there if I ever hit an attacker. That's the only reason I decided to go with the thick rattan cane....Just to be inconspicuous.

This shows how strong is the Cold Steel City stick:









I don't know enough about aerodynamics to calculate the air resistance effect.


----------



## jobo

Alan0354 said:


> That's a good point. 10oz is a good weight, how about 6oz which is a typical weight for rattan escrima sticks? Not only it's light, it flex also. I doubt those have stopping power. So the question is how heavy is heavy enough.
> 
> That also raise a question about whether a thicker stick is better or worst than a thinner stick of the same weight. I think air resistance does play a part in it. For example comparing the Cold Steel on the left to the rattan on the right:
> View attachment 26663
> 
> They are both 12oz. But the Cold Steel makes a higher pitch whopping sound when swing than the thicken rattan. My guess is the thinner Cold Steel has less air resistance and thereby gain the speed faster.
> 
> I can tell you, if I don't have to have the foam grip on the Cold Steel cane, it would be the best cane as it is HARD and strong. Problem is it's only 3/4" diameter and it's much harder to grip than the big 1.1" diameter rattan. The foam grip draw attention, try explain to police why I put a grip there if I ever hit an attacker. That's the only reason I decided to go with the thick rattan cane....Just to be inconspicuous.
> 
> This shows how strong is the Cold Steel City stick:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know enough about aerodynamics to calculate the air resistance effect.


your seriously over analysing this, the biggest problem you have with the cold steel stick is not killingsomeone

just practice moving it quickly,


----------



## drop bear

jobo said:


> the same weight would have wrecked his leg, there is a sweet spot,  to heavy and it's harder to accelerate, so more mass ,less velocity and easier to avoid,



Nope. Not the case.


----------



## Alan0354

jobo said:


> your seriously over analysing this, the biggest problem you have with the cold steel stick is not killingsomeone
> 
> just practice moving it quickly,


That's a big question, how do you choose the sticks? What is the difference between a 6oz vs 10oz vs 13oz stick? Can the 6oz do as much damage?(assume they are all very stiff and don't bend)

What do you mean by "the biggest problem you have with the cold steel stick is not killingsomeone"


----------



## drop bear

Alan0354 said:


> That's a big question, how do you choose the sticks? What is the difference between a 6oz vs 10oz vs 13oz stick? Can the 6oz do as much damage?(assume they are all very stiff and don't bend)
> 
> What do you mean by "the biggest problem you have with the cold steel stick is not killingsomeone"



If you belt someone in the head they may die. Which is generally really inconvenient.


----------



## jobo

Alan0354 said:


> That's a big question, how do you choose the sticks? What is the difference between a 6oz vs 10oz vs 13oz stick? Can the 6oz do as much damage?(assume they are all very stiff and don't bend)
> 
> What do you mean by "the biggest problem you have with the cold steel stick is not killingsomeone"


I mean if you wack someone on the head with that your going to break their skull

will a 6 oz cause as much damage? only if you move it a lot faster


----------



## Alan0354

If you read any of my post and look at the picture, I said it very clearly I removed the heavy aluminum knob that the video used to hit the water melon. My Cold Steel is a strong stick, but it's just a very hard stick like hard wood, nothing more now.

It is too inconvenient also the aluminum knob cannot hang onto the table or chair. It is an expensive cane, it looks too flashy for my taste. I like the stick part of it, so I made the handle for the cane so it looks inconspicuous and can hang onto table or chair.


----------



## jobo

Alan0354 said:


> If you read any of my post and look at the picture, I said it very clearly I removed the heavy aluminum knob that the video used to hit the water melon. My Cold Steel is a strong stick, but it's just a very hard stick like hard wood, nothing more now.
> 
> It is too inconvenient also the aluminum knob cannot hang onto the table or chair. It is an expensive cane, it looks too flashy for my taste. I like the stick part of it, so I made the handle for the cane so it looks inconspicuous and can hang onto table or chair.


the knob isnt really the issue, its a 12 oz club, iit will knock someone out and over possibly causes damage to the skull, it may kill them it may not, but it will most definitely hurt them

the energy at the point of impact is dependent on the mass of the stick and its speed, the faster you swing it the more damage it will do, heavier sticks can be a lot harder to move quickly, requiring more back swing and giving a lot more warning of your intent

there are no other easy answers to this, if you want a heavier stick, get a heavier stick, no matter, what its usefulness to you is dependent on you being able to move it at speed and hit the guy with it, if you cant do one or both of these you may as well be using a bread roll


----------



## Shatteredzen

You want a wood cane for self defense? 

As timeless as Erin's Isle itself : Olde Shillelagh


----------



## Alan0354

jobo said:


> the knob isnt really the issue, its a 12 oz club, iit will knock someone out and over possibly causes damage to the skull, it may kill them it may not, but it will most definitely hurt them
> 
> the energy at the point of impact is dependent on the mass of the stick and its speed, the faster you swing it the more damage it will do, heavier sticks can be a lot harder to move quickly, requiring more back swing and giving a lot more warning of your intent
> 
> there are no other easy answers to this, if you want a heavier stick, get a heavier stick, no matter, what its usefulness to you is dependent on you being able to move it at speed and hit the guy with it, if you cant do one or both of these you may as well be using a bread roll


Now I am confused, I suspect all the hardwood cane of 1” diameter or bigger are going to be 12oz or over. Are you saying they are just as dangerous as my City cane? Even my rattan canes are 12oz. So which is it? Why people keep talking about using hardwood canes?

I don’t think I have a problem swinging 12oz, making the whooping sound.

So we are back to the weight again. If you said 12oz is dangerous, then what weight cane is the best…..back to the beginning of the thread again.


----------



## jobo

Alan0354 said:


> Now I am confused, I suspect all the hardwood cane of 1” diameter or bigger are going to be 12oz or over. Are you saying they are just as dangerous as my City cane? Even my rattan canes are 12oz. So which is it? Why people keep talking about using hardwood canes?
> 
> I don’t think I have a problem swinging 12oz, making the whooping sound.
> 
> So we are back to the weight again. If you said 12oz is dangerous, then what weight cane is the best…..back to the beginning of the thread again.


of course its dangerous, isnt that why your hitting them ?

hardwood probably wont break on impact, but then a decent soft wood probably wont either, fiberglass almost certainly wont.

as i said your completely over analysing this, youve got three sticks go and practice hitting a bag and see which feels best


----------



## Blindside

Here is a inexpensive hickory cane, hickory is a great wood for hitting and hurting people with.








						Crook Cane - Hickory
					

Crook Cane - Hickory



					www.woodenswords.com
				




Also look at the page where those are sourced from for other options.





						Canes
					

Canes



					www.woodenswords.com
				




As for what you asked for the typical 7/8" diameter, 28 inch long rattan stick is around 8 ounces.


----------



## jobo

Blindside said:


> Here is a inexpensive hickory cane, hickory is a great wood for hitting and hurting people with.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Crook Cane - Hickory
> 
> 
> Crook Cane - Hickory
> 
> 
> 
> www.woodenswords.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also look at the page where those are sourced from for other options.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Canes
> 
> 
> Canes
> 
> 
> 
> www.woodenswords.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As for what you asked for the typical 7/8" diameter, 28 inch long rattan stick is around 8 ounces.


wouldn't mind one of them myself


----------



## Alan0354

jobo said:


> of course its dangerous, isnt that why your hitting them ?
> 
> hardwood probably wont break on impact, but then a decent soft wood probably wont either, fiberglass almost certainly wont.
> 
> as i said your completely over analysing this, youve got three sticks go and practice hitting a bag and see which feels best


Then why are you singling out the City stick? Like I said, without the heavy aluminum knob, it's just another 12oz hardwood stick, no better or worst when comes to hitting. The main difference the City stick is NOT going to break like hardwood.

Also, like I said, my rattan sticks are 12oz also, big diameter and won't bend like the thinner *skinless *sticks, they are dangerous too?

I am taking two days off, the skin of both my hands hurt because I practice too much. I have blister on my index finger of my left hand, I better let it rest. I practice both left and right hand and also both hands like Japanese Katana.


----------



## wab25

Alan0354 said:


> Then why are you singling out the City stick? Like I said, without the heavy aluminum knob, it's just another 12oz hardwood stick, no better or worst when comes to hitting. The main difference the City stick is NOT going to break like hardwood.
> 
> Also, like I said, my rattan sticks are 12oz also, big diameter and won't bend like the thinner *skinless *sticks, they are dangerous too?
> 
> I am taking two days off, the skin of both my hands hurt because I practice too much. I have blister on my index finger of my left hand, I better let it rest. I practice both left and right hand and also both hands like Japanese Katana.


In my opinion, you are way over thinking this. Get a heavy bag and hit it with the sticks you want to compare, and pick the one that feels best to you. All of the sticks will cause a lot of hurt and injury to the guy you hit. All of them have the potential to kill, if you hit the right targets, in the right direction, with enough force. All of them will send the other guy to the hospital. What is most important, is how it feels to you.

If you are swinging these like a katana... you are very likely to severely injure the guy you hit, no matter which of these options you go with. If there is any video, from a bystanders cell phone, a ring type camera or store surveillance  camera... it will be quite apparent that you are carrying the cane as a weapon and not for your mobility. It would be best to know your local laws regarding use of force, use of deadly force, use of and carrying of weapons and self defense. It could very well turn you into the guilty party, very quickly.


----------



## jobo

Alan0354 said:


> Then why are you singling out the City stick? Like I said, without the heavy aluminum knob, it's just another 12oz hardwood stick, no better or worst when comes to hitting. The main difference the City stick is NOT going to break like hardwood.
> 
> Also, like I said, my rattan sticks are 12oz also, big diameter and won't bend like the thinner *skinless *sticks, they are dangerous too?
> 
> I am taking two days off, the skin of both my hands hurt because I practice too much. I have blister on my index finger of my left hand, I better let it rest. I practice both left and right hand and also both hands like Japanese Katana.


get some white opera gloves to go with you cane

give up mate ive told you the same thing three or 4 times now, kinetic energy equals 1/2mass  times velocity squared

get your calculator out and work it out for yourself


----------



## Alan0354

jobo said:


> get some white opera gloves to go with you cane
> 
> give up mate ive told you the same thing three or 4 times now, kinetic energy equals 1/2mass  times velocity squared
> 
> get your calculator out and work it out for yourself


You seem to be all over the place, that's why I kept asking you what you said.


----------



## Argus

If it were me personally, I'd take a straight grained piece of hickory and taper it slightly to the bottom/point end using a hand plane.
If you have traditional woodworking skills (can sharpen, set, and use a plane) then this is not difficult. Otherwise, I'd just commission a good hand tool wood worker to do the job for me. Tell them what you expect in terms of durability. An experienced woodworker should be able to orient the grain such that it will not break on you, at least not without really, really trying. By contrast, a random mass produced wooden cane is likely to have weak points where the grain runs off or something.

What length are you looking at though? A standard walking cane would probably be better used not as a stick in FMA, but more as a bo or jo, ala something like Muso Shinto Ryu Jojutsu. I'd be more apt to use it in two hands, and perhaps place more emphasis on thrusts than is typical in most FMA systems. While one certainly doesn't want to be limited to thrusts, they allow you to deliver quite a bit more force to a smaller area, and are unlikely to damage even a poor quality cane.


----------



## drop bear

By the way irish stick fighting seems like the most fun.


----------



## Alan0354

I cannot find any class that is open, so I mainly learning from Youtube.  I watch quite a bit of stick fighting, Katana and sword fighting, I can see there are a lot of similarity, they are more similar than different when you look deeper into it. I particularly impressed by the real fight video like this one:





I don't know whether I am right or not, but since I watch this and some other real sparing videos, I stop practicing all the fancy twirling and anything that is for show and concentrating on simple swinging and foot work. Look at the video, nothing fancy, the most impressive thing I see is the foot work. When comes to sticks, it's very simple, just one or two simple strikes. Not much blocking at all. I read about blocking and parrying is really not very useful as it's only good for practicing in the class, in real life, it's so fast and so unpredictable that you just don't have time to block and parrying. Using footwork to get away is more realistic. I watch different footworks, so far, I like the footwork of MMA, I don't like the traditional footwork from the formal martial arts, they are just too rigid, nothing like boxing and MMA.

My problem is I am slow, nothing edgile like the young people. It's amazing how far they can leap forward in the attack. I don't know how to speed up my movement.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Alan0354 said:


> I cannot find any class that is open, so I mainly learning from Youtube.  I watch quite a bit of stick fighting, Katana and sword fighting, I can see there are a lot of similarity, they are more similar than different when you look deeper into it. I particularly impressed by the real fight video like this one:


Actually, no. This is a fine example of why YouTube is not a particularly good learning tool. Because the deeper you look into it, the LESS similar sticks and swords are.
At  the most basic level, a katana is used with a slashing or slicing movement. A stick uses a hacking motion. If you're swinging a katana like a baseball bat, you're doing it completely wrong.


----------



## Alan0354

Dirty Dog said:


> Actually, no. This is a fine example of why YouTube is not a particularly good learning tool. Because the deeper you look into it, the LESS similar sticks and swords are.
> At  the most basic level, a katana is used with a slashing or slicing movement. A stick uses a hacking motion. If you're swinging a katana like a baseball bat, you're doing it completely wrong.


I did not say swinging the katana like a base ball bat, they are use a round motion. Of cause swinging a sword and a stick is different, I am more talking about they are use round motion to go from one strike to another like figure 8 or whatever you call. There is no school open, so I just use what I learn in martial arts to apply to sticks.

After I watch UFC MMA beating all the difference martial arts styles, I am getting very skeptical about any particular style. I personally learn Tae Kwong Do for almost 3 years, luckily my school at the time was strongly influenced by Bruce Lee, combining a lot of boxing into the class. We never use the traditional horse stands of Tae Kwon Do.  Sadly, it evolved again since UFC came onto the scene and I was too old to get into it.

I am watching Youtube to learn *what NOT to do* than to do. Like I found the video I posted in #56 very eye opening, that confirm what my believe. The real fighting is much more simple than what people spend so much time in all the fancy stuffs, That to me is the essence of MMA, that everything is to the point, very practical, doing it in the most simple way. Forget the style, take the best of every style and use it.

I just watch a lot of youtube of different stick, sword and see what make sense.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Dirty Dog said:


> Actually, no. This is a fine example of why YouTube is not a particularly good learning tool. Because the deeper you look into it, the LESS similar sticks and swords are.
> At  the most basic level, a katana is used with a slashing or slicing movement. A stick uses a hacking motion. If you're swinging a katana like a baseball bat, you're doing it completely wrong.


A stick isn't the best analogue for a katana, but there are a number of stick fighting systems based around sword technique and sword systems which have traditionally used sticks as training tools for the sword. For example, much of Irish stickfighting was apparently based on broadsword technique, English singlestick was commonly used as a training tool for saber use, and much (not all) of the stick work in FMA is meant to serve as a stand-in for bladework.

Of course, even in those cases, there are some important differences in function between the stick and blade which are worth noting and learning about. But the fact is that a number of people who actually fought with sticks and swords found there was enough common ground between the two to use one as a basis for training the other.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Tony Dismukes said:


> A stick isn't the best analogue for a katana, but there are a number of stick fighting systems based around sword technique and sword systems which have traditionally used sticks as training tools for the sword. For example, much of Irish stickfighting was apparently based on broadsword technique, English singlestick was commonly used as a training tool for saber use, and much (not all) of the stick work in FMA is meant to serve as a stand-in for bladework.
> 
> Of course, even in those cases, there are some important differences in function between the stick and blade which are worth noting and learning about. But the fact is that a number of people who actually fought with sticks and swords found there was enough common ground between the two to use one as a basis for training the other.


All of what you're describing is using a stick as a training tool. And sure, that works. But if you're using a boken or shinai to train, you're still using it (or should be) in the way you'd use a sword.
An impact weapon is most effectively used when the impact puts the energy INTO the target. Kind of like punching or kicking. 
An edged weapon, most especially a short or curved blade, is most effective when used to slice the target. 
Chopping is for sticks and axes. Slicing is for swords.

Actually, allow me to self correct. Slicing is most effective when you're swinging a blade. The actual BESTEST most effective use is to thrust. 
Someone can come in with a bunch of slices, and it's common to stitch them up and wave goodbye. But a single good puncture wound, and there's a really good chance they're going to the OR.
There are reasons dueling was outlawed when weapons became less cut and more poke...


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Dirty Dog said:


> All of what you're describing is using a stick as a training tool. And sure, that works. But if you're using a boken or shinai to train, you're still using it (or should be) in the way you'd use a sword.
> An impact weapon is most effectively used when the impact puts the energy INTO the target. Kind of like punching or kicking.
> An edged weapon, most especially a short or curved blade, is most effective when used to slice the target.
> Chopping is for sticks and axes. Slicing is for swords.
> 
> Actually, allow me to self correct. Slicing is most effective when you're swinging a blade. The actual BESTEST most effective use is to thrust.
> Someone can come in with a bunch of slices, and it's common to stitch them up and wave goodbye. But a single good puncture wound, and there's a really good chance they're going to the OR.
> There are reasons dueling was outlawed when weapons became less cut and more poke...


It depends a lot on the type of sword. Some are optimized for slicing and the arts which use them reflect that. Others are more optimized for a hewing action and the body dynamics for those are very close to those for impact weapons (except that edge alignment is much more important, obviously). I’m studying German longsword right now, and hewing strikes are the standard. Slices are more situational exception.


----------



## Alan0354

Tony Dismukes said:


> A stick isn't the best analogue for a katana, but there are a number of stick fighting systems based around sword technique and sword systems which have traditionally used sticks as training tools for the sword. For example, much of Irish stickfighting was apparently based on broadsword technique, English singlestick was commonly used as a training tool for saber use, and much (not all) of the stick work in FMA is meant to serve as a stand-in for bladework.
> 
> Of course, even in those cases, there are some important differences in function between the stick and blade which are worth noting and learning about. But the fact is that a number of people who actually fought with sticks and swords found there was enough common ground between the two to use one as a basis for training the other.


Actually if you swing the stick with two hands, technique of Katana might be useful. Who is to say you cannot swing the stick with two hands? Just because most of the popular stick fighting use one hand doesn't mean it's not right to do it!! I learn in life you need to have an open mind to everything.

I spend equal time practice stick with right hand, left hand and both hands. So far, I max out with a 12oz cane using one hand. But if I use both hands, I can swing a 18oz heavy cane just as fast with both hands. What's wrong with that? I hate to keep going to MMA, UFC MMA proved the short coming of confining to any one style, that people need to have an open mind and examine objectively what works and what not.

I am by no means an expert in this, but the idea works in every other field in life. Things never stop evolving.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Tony Dismukes said:


> It depends a lot on the type of sword. Some are optimized for slicing and the arts which use them reflect that. Others are more optimized for a hewing action and the body dynamics for those are very close to those for impact weapons (except that edge alignment is much more important, obviously). I’m studying German longsword right now, and hewing strikes are the standard. Slices are more situational exception.


My reply was specifically to a post about the katana...


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Dirty Dog said:


> My reply was specifically to a post about the katana...


Yeah, I acknowledge that a katana is more of a slicer. I don’t know if the OP understands swords enough to make the distinction between different type.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Tony Dismukes said:


> Yeah, I acknowledge that a katana is more of a slicer. I don’t know if the OP understands swords enough to make the distinction between different type.


He's still posting about using a katana and a stick the same... so I sort of doubt it.

And even a longsword is more deadly when used for poking instead of chopping...


----------



## Alan0354

Of cause I understand blade is different from a stick. You don't do cut and slice with a stick. Of cause NOT everything in Katana can be used for stick, but the chopping part is useful for stick. It is NOT ALL or NOTHING, you pick out the part that is related to the stick and let the slicing part goes.

You pick and choose what is useful and forgo those that doesn't apply. This is dynamic, not all or nothing.


----------



## drop bear

Dirty Dog said:


> He's still posting about using a katana and a stick the same... so I sort of doubt it.
> 
> And even a longsword is more deadly when used for poking instead of chopping...



Yeah  but if you are using a stick like a sword like a stick it cancels itself out. 

So if he is doing a kendo move like he is swinging a baseball bat. Then for the sake of cane defence he probably isn't going that far wrong.


----------



## Dirty Dog

drop bear said:


> Yeah  but if you are using a stick like a sword like a stick it cancels itself out.
> 
> So if he is doing a kendo move like he is swinging a baseball bat. Then for the sake of cane defence he probably isn't going that far wrong.


So if you're wrong enough for long enough you can circle back around to being right?

If he's doing what you're saying, he isn't doing a kendo move. He just THINKS he is, because he doesn't realize he's doing it wrong.


----------



## drop bear

Dirty Dog said:


> So if you're wrong enough for long enough you can circle back around to being right?
> 
> If he's doing what you're saying, he isn't doing a kendo move. He just THINKS he is, because he doesn't realize he's doing it wrong.



Yeah I thought that was kind of a weird coincidence.

So not proper kendo and instead just smashing an overhand shot in to someone's head.Which honestly should do the trick.


----------



## Dirty Dog

drop bear said:


> Yeah I thought that was kind of a weird coincidence.
> 
> So not proper kendo and instead just smashing an overhand shot in to someone's head.Which honestly should do the trick.


Sure it should. Stick fighting can be super effective. My only points were
1 - YouTube is a lousy teacher.
2 - Sticks are not swords and are not really used the same way.


----------



## drop bear

Dirty Dog said:


> Sure it should. Stick fighting can be super effective. My only points were
> 1 - YouTube is a lousy teacher.
> 2 - Sticks are not swords and are not really used the same way.



Yeah but it is weapons. There are almost no good teachers. Because almost nobody gets in to stick fights. 

So I wouldn't know if just swinging a sword like a stick is the same or different. Because I haven't swung a sword at someone. 

I have never met someone who has. 

Even the HEMA guys are basically using sticks.


----------



## drop bear

Otherwise competition cutting seems to be a bit baseball bat ish.


----------



## Dirty Dog

drop bear said:


> Yeah but it is weapons. There are almost no good teachers. Because almost nobody gets in to stick fights.


Errrmmm.... while less common than empty hand, I've treated quite a few people after they got whacked with various forms of sticks.


drop bear said:


> So I wouldn't know if just swinging a sword like a stick is the same or different. Because I haven't swung a sword at someone.
> 
> I have never met someone who has.


Yes, but there is test cutting, which is sufficient for learning that chopping with a sword won't work terribly well.


----------



## drop bear

Dirty Dog said:


> Errrmmm.... while less common than empty hand, I've treated quite a few people after they got whacked with various forms of sticks.
> 
> Yes, but there is test cutting, which is sufficient for learning that chopping with a sword won't work terribly well.


----------



## CB Jones

My son just won a Cane Masters cane at a tournament.   Pretty cool looking cane.


----------



## angelariz

Alan0354 said:


> Hi
> 
> I am new here and I am new in learning self defense with walking cane. I have question on what cane to choose. I started out buying a cheap wood crook cane from Amazon, I tried hitting on heavy kicking bag and I broke it in like a minute, it just crack in the middle!! So I went to rattan cane, the first I got is 7/8” diameter, it’s very light and flex a lot, It’s only about 6oz and is skinless. I don’t trust it, so I hunted for a thicker ones. I finally bought 3 rattan sticks that are like 1.05” to 1.1” diameter that are with skin and knots un-sanded. I cut them down to 30”, 31” and 32” for practicing. They are still quite heavy, all about 12oz. each. They are quite stiff, I can lean on it with my weight and it only flex very slightly. I thought this is definitely good enough for self defense……..
> 
> BUT, then I started reading more. I read that rattan is only good for using in the class where it is safer as it won’t hurt as much if accidentally hitting the partner!!! This is NOT what I want, I want it for self defense. They suggested using for hard wood sticks. My first problem is I don’t trust wood canes from my experience of cracking when hitting the heavy bag.
> 
> Also, they said hardwood cane is heavier. My question is how heavy are those 28” hard wood escrima sticks? I want to compare the weight with my canes. If I calculate my rattan canes(12oz.) down to a 28” escrima stick, it’s going to be like 9oz. They are definitely heavier than the few escrima sticks I have ( 6oz to 7oz). What is a typical weight of hard wood stick that is 28” long?
> 
> Bottom line, I want to know whether what I have are good enough for self defense, or do I have to go buy a hardwood walking cane.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Alan


I use a blackthorn walking stick and the synthetic ones from Cold Steel are fantastic.


----------



## Alan0354

Dirty Dog said:


> Sure it should. Stick fighting can be super effective. My only points were
> 1 - YouTube is a lousy teacher.
> 2 - Sticks are not swords and are not really used the same way.


I never said sword and stick are the same and using stick the same way. You choose the movement of sword and katana that can be transfer to stick moves, like the katana chops, that absolutely can be used in stick. Of cause nobody is that stupid to use slice and cut movement of katana with sticks.

Point is USE COMMON SENSE, pick out what works and what doesn't. You CANNOT stuck with one particular style, you just have to have an open mind to look at different styles and pick out what can be useful.

I disagree that youtube is not useful. I might be newer in sticks, I did spent a few years in Tae Kwon do and a little while in Wing Chung. Again, I watch youtube, look at what make sense and what doesn't. Look at MMA eat all the tradition styles for breakfast because they only pick what is practical and incorporate into the style. Their footwork is amazing, you sure as hell those footwork can be used for stick fight!!! This is 21st century, look at Gracie came into the UFC and ate all the kung fu and karate up, then in a few short years, Gracie got slaughtered by Matt Huges, then within a few months, Huges got creamed. This is modern time, things evolve in lighting speed. I so wish they have USC ( Ultimate Stick Champion), then we'll see what works and what needs to be retired.

You watch all different style with open mind, you can laugh off some stupid things on youtube, but on and off, you'll find something useful. If you spend 2hr watching youtube and you get one good move out of it, it's a win!!! Nobody tells you to take them seriously. Just have an open mind, watch and learn if it is good.

I know I'll be attacked from all sides, so be it. Don't think I am happy with MMA, I spent years in Tae Kwon Do, now MMA eat Tae Kwon Do for lunch. I just consider me practicing Tae Kwon Do and kick boxing now as aerobics. Bitter and sad, but it's life. I got left behind and too old to learn MMA.


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## Alan0354

I am still watching some youtube videos to compare light weight sword(stick) vs heavier ones. It is obvious that the heavier, the slower the strike and motion. My question is when is slow is too slow? Also when is light and fast is too light to have stopping power. Here are a few videos I watched:

1) This is a stick fight that the sticks are very light. My guess from the size of the stick assuming they are rattan, must not be over 7oz. Look at how fast are the motion: 




2) This is heavier sword fight, it's obviously much slower than the stick fight. You can see one sword is much heavier than the other and is a lot slower. Also, you can see the heavy sword kept pulling the person because of the momentum, even the lighter sword is not exactly light, it's still kind of slow:   




3)This is an axe fight, one much heavier than the other. You can see the difference in speed. The light axe is not fast, just faster than the big axe.:




This is the dilemma, how do I choose the weight of the stick? So far, I keep going to the large diameter rattan cane with skin because at 12oz, it's light enough to be faster and the momentum  won 't pull me. I have the United Cutlery walking cane that is synthetic and weight 17oz after cut to the same length. I can feel my swing gets slower and recovery is slower. I have to use two hands ( like katana or double hand sword) to swing to get back the speed.

I even have the United Cutlery Walkabout stick that is 26oz, I have to use two hands and still kind of slow because of the momentum.WALKABOUT STICK

This is the 3 canes that I have:* 1)* is the thick rattan(12oz).   *2)* Cold Steel City Stick modified(13oz). Weight is ok, it's a lot thinner than the rattan and much harder. This starts to be my prefer one to use as the stopping power is better. My concern is because of the thin diameter, I have to use a foam grip as shown, it attract attention and it's not a good thing.   *3) *United Cutlery Walking Cane(17oz). Too heavy to swing fast with one hand, but it's good for two hands. I prefer to fight with one hand because this is self defense, I rather use the other hand to hold a pepper spray which I carry with me all the time!!





How do I choose between them? When is slow becomes too slow? You can see in the videos, the big heavy weapon one is not necessary winning, it's just too slow.


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## geezer

Alan0354 said:


> How do I choose between them? When is slow becomes too slow? You can see in the videos, the big heavy weapon one is not necessary winning, it's just too slow.


Quickness and agility is more important when engaged in weapons sparring where you must move in, score and evade a counterstrike. For self defense, I'd personally sacrifice a little speed and agility for solid, knock-'em-down power. You don't want to smack somebody with a stick and do nothing other than really tick them off. Been there, done that, and it really sucked.


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## Alan0354

Thanks Geezer, makes sense. For self defense, you don't count points, only thing that count is the other guy drops. There got to be a reason people choose heavy sword/axe/stick even if it's slower.

For now, I think my best move is practice more double hands swing with the United Cutlery Walking Cane. it's 17oz, should be plenty heavy enough.

Thanks


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## Alan0354

geezer said:


> Quickness and agility is more important when engaged in weapons sparring where you must move in, score and evade a counterstrike. For self defense, I'd personally sacrifice a little speed and agility for solid, knock-'em-down power. You don't want to smack somebody with a stick and do nothing other than really tick them off.* Been there, done that, and it really sucked*.


Tell me what happened, what kind of stick you used and how heavy was that?

I know better not to use those 7/8" escrima sticks, they are only about 6oz, that's too light to have stopping power. Those are just good for doing fancy moves, twirling to show off. I have no interest in doing those. I basically practice only 4 strikes, 45deg slashing down from left and right, sweeping the feet left and right. That's it for the striking with a cane. I just practicing with footwork. Nothing fancy, just to the point.The footwork in the video of the stick fight I posted in post #78 is really amazing and they kept the striking so simple.


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## geezer

Alan0354 said:


> Tell me what happened, what kind of stick you used and how heavy was that?
> 
> I know better not to use those 7/8" escrima sticks, they are only about 6oz, that's too light to have stopping power. Those are just good for doing fancy moves, twirling to show off. I have no interest in doing those. I basically practice only 4 strikes, 45deg slashing down from left and right, sweeping the feet left and right. That's it for the striking with a cane. I just practicing with footwork. Nothing fancy, just to the point.The footwork in the video of the stick fight I posted in post #78 is really amazing and they kept the striking so simple.


Short, stupid story from a long time ago. I was around 21 years old and recovering from a broken leg in a short plaster "walking cast".  I was at a point in healing where I could basically hobble along with just a little assistance from a cheap drugstore cane. I got into a row with a big guy and ended up hitting him hard with the cane. He turned and took the strike across his shoulders ....and my piece-of-crap cane snapped into three pieces, leaving me looking like an idiot, holding just the crook and a foot-long stump of wood ....while facing a large and now _very angry_ man. 

If not for the timely intercession of bystanders, I believe my broken leg would have been the least of my injuries that year!


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## Alan0354

Hi Geezer

Glad you are ok. That's the reason I try so hard to stay with Rattan cane instead of wood cane. I just buy the biggest one ( 1.1" diameter) with skin(huge difference) that is 12oz instead of the smaller lighter ones. I bought a wood cane first, it lasted about a minute before it cracked into two pieces when I hit the heavy bag.

Now that I am slightly stronger from practicing, I am moving to synthetic cane that is heavier and a lot stronger. I stay away from wood cane at all cost.

I don't why people in this thread kept saying wood cane is heavier and better. Yesterday, I bought a 7/8" wood dowel, I still can cut a 28" piece as escrima stick after I used part of it for something else.  I weight the stick, it's 6oz, not at all heavier than the rattan with skin. It's a little stiffer than rattan, but if compare to my 1.1" big rattan with skin, the rattan still is stiffer. I don't know why people here are so against rattan, not all rattan are the same. I notice majority of the rattan escrima stick sold are like 7/8", people must be getting those so they can do fancy twirling for show. Those don't have stopping power. I don't think people can joke about being hit by a 1.1" rattan cane with skin. If you look at the picture in post #78 of my 3 canes, 1) is the 1.1" rattan, 3) is the synthetic cane that is 1" diameter. Look at the size difference of the stick by just 0.1" difference. I won't even trust rattan that is 1" diameter.


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## Blindside

Alan0354 said:


> I don't why people in this thread kept saying wood cane is heavier and better. Yesterday, I bought a 7/8" wood dowel, I still can cut a 28" piece as escrima stick after I used part of it for something else.  I weight the stick, it's 6oz, not at all heavier than the rattan with skin. It's a little stiffer than rattan, but if compare to my 1.1" big rattan with skin, the rattan still is stiffer. I don't know why people here are so against rattan, not all rattan are the same. I notice majority of the rattan escrima stick sold are like 7/8", people must be getting those so they can do fancy twirling for show. Those don't have stopping power. I don't think people can joke about being hit by a 1.1" rattan cane with skin. If you look at the picture in post #78 of my 3 canes, 1) is the 1.1" rattan, 3) is the synthetic cane that is 1" diameter. Look at the size difference of the stick by just 0.1" difference. I won't even trust rattan that is 1" diameter.



I do full contact low armor stick fighting with rattan fairly regularly, my standard fighting stick is 31"x1" and they weight about 11 ounces.  I can TKO a person through a fencing mask with them so I am not saying you couldn't hurt someone with it, but the reason we use rattan is that is a great material for not breaking people.  Self-defense tools, particularly impact weapons should break people IMO, I would go with hickory.


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## Alan0354

Blindside said:


> I do full contact low armor stick fighting with rattan fairly regularly, my standard fighting stick is 31"x1" and they weight about 11 ounces.  I can TKO a person through a fencing mask with them so I am not saying you couldn't hurt someone with it, but the reason we use rattan is that is a great material for not breaking people.  Self-defense tools, particularly impact weapons should break people IMO, I would go with hickory.


I am carrying the Cold Steel City Stick with me all the time now. I am getting stronger, so I am starting to use a heavier stick. It is fiber glass, very strong. I got rid of the heavy aluminum head of the City Stick and put in a small wooden handle. It's still 13.5oz.

That said, the rattan cane I have is 1.1" thick, very different from 1" even though it sounds small difference. Does your rattan have skin? Big difference if it is without skin. They are out of stock right now, if they have one that is bigger than 1.1" and weight heavier than what I have so it would be like 12 to 13oz when cut to fit me, I might still consider getting it.

I don't like wood because they break. I bought a wood cane from Amazon, it lasted only 1 minute before it cracked to two when I hit the heavy bag. If I want heavier cane, I go with synthetic. I have picture of my 3 canes in post #78 in page 4 of this thread.


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## geezer

Alan0354 said:


> I am carrying the Cold Steel City Stick with me all the time now. I am getting stronger, so I am starting to use a heavier stick. It is fiber glass, very strong. I got rid of the heavy aluminum head of the City Stick and put in a small wooden handle. It's still 13.5oz.
> 
> That said, the rattan cane I have is 1.1" thick, very different from 1" even though it sounds small difference. Does your rattan have skin? Big difference if it is without skin. They are out of stock right now, if they have one that is bigger than 1.1" and weight heavier than what I have so it would be like 12 to 13oz when cut to fit me, I might still consider getting it.
> 
> I don't like wood because they break. I bought a wood cane from Amazon, it lasted only 1 minute before it cracked to two when I hit the heavy bag. If I want heavier cane, I go with synthetic. I have picture of my 3 canes in post #78 in page 4 of this thread.


Go with what you are comfortable with. Cheap wood _will _break. I spent more and got a decent heavy hickory cane from Purpleheart, but it was poorly finished for the price, and I waited forever to receive it. And then it didn't have straight grain as I had specifically requested. Even so it has held up on the bag so far.

Just remember, self defense is ultimately about you, not what kind of stick you are holding.


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## Alan0354

geezer said:


> Go with what you are comfortable with. Cheap wood _will _break. I spent more and got a decent heavy hickory cane from Purpleheart, but it was poorly finished for the price, and I waited forever to receive it. And then it didn't have straight grain as I had specifically requested. Even so it has held up on the bag so far.
> 
> Just remember, self defense is ultimately about you, not what kind of stick you are holding.


How heavier is the Hickory cane? I want to get some idea. 

So it survive the heavy bag?


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## geezer

Alan0354 said:


> How heavier is the Hickory cane? I want to get some idea.
> 
> So it survive the heavy bag?


I dunno what it weighs. Heavier than rattan or softwoods like pine and fir. Lighter than heavy hardwoods like ironwood, kamagong, or bahi. But kamagong and ironwood break. The hickory one also lighter and a little wider than this cheap poly cane:





A couple of years back, I also bought one of these for about $50, cut it down to my proper length, and trimmed off the stupid spike on the crook sanding it into a rounded, blunt end so it isn't so bloody obvious as "a weapon". Canes should be ._..discreet, _so you can carry them anywhere without attracting attention.

In short, this thing won't break, but it's narrow and doesn't feel as good in your hand, or as balanced when you swing it, so I like the hickory one better ...even with the messed up grain.

But don't worry about all that. Like I said, don't think you have to have the perfect weapon, because you never will. It's just a stick. _You_ are the weapon, and it's up to you to take care of yourself!


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## Alan0354

geezer said:


> I dunno what it weighs. Heavier than rattan or softwoods like pine and fir. Lighter than heavy hardwoods like ironwood, kamagong, or bahi. But kamagong and ironwood break. The hickory one also lighter and a little wider than this cheap poly cane:
> 
> View attachment 26879
> A couple of years back, I also bought one of these for about $50, cut it down to my proper length, and trimmed off the stupid spike on the crook sanding it into a rounded, blunt end so it isn't so bloody obvious as "a weapon". Canes should be ._..discreet, _so you can carry them anywhere without attracting attention.
> 
> In short, this thing won't break, but it's narrow and doesn't feel as good in your hand, or as balanced when you swing it, so I like the hickory one better ...even with the messed up grain.
> 
> But don't worry about all that. Like I said, don't think you have to have the perfect weapon, because you never will. It's just a stick. _You_ are the weapon, and it's up to you to take care of yourself!


I have 3 of this Night Watchman, this is the 17oz cane I am talking about after cutting to the right length, cut away the pointed hook



The left one is rubber foam covered for hitting the bag. I have to protect the bag. The middle one is the finished one, I put the foam rubber tubing on the handle and where I grip. Yes, it's uncomfortable to grip and swing without the foam. It makes a day and night difference to swing.

This is the foam rubber tubing I bought, you should buy this and put it on, it really really make a difference:
Amazon.com : Yolispa Foam Bike Handlebar Grips Cover Stretchable Flexible Cuttable Sponge Pack of 2Pcs for Touring Butterfly Bicycle Handle 19.7x0.9x1.2 : Sports & Outdoors

I am still experimenting how to stick it in place as it will move after you swing it for a while. I'll let you know how I fix it after I find a way.

I am getting stronger, the rattan canes are getting too light, I am moving up to 13.5oz. I hope I can get strong enough to use this Night Watchman.


BTW, I drilled a 3/8" diameter hole 6" deep into the straight end of the Night Watchman to reduce the weight. It should not compromise the structural integrity. I have been beating the 100lbs heavy bag with the one on the left for a while and it's good. The only concern is this cane might be a little too deadly.

I just bought the third one (right) as back up for the middle one. I am still waiting for the foam tubing to arrive. I yet to drill the deep hole to reduce weight. It's a little tricky to drill the hole as it has to be true to the stick. You don't want to drill slanted, it will weaken the stick. It's quite a process, have to adjust to level, then level the drill bit. I have to draw white lines along the stick for reference to keep the drill bit true.




I am sure this one is stronger than the hickory stick. Which one is heavier?


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## Alan0354

Hi Geezer

I just received the new foam grip for the Night Watcher cane, it's better than the one I linked in the last post. This is the new link, it's cheaper also:

Amazon.com: Vensans Bike Handlebar Grips Cover, Bicycle Tube Sponge Foam Soft Handlebar Grips Cover Plug Bike Accessories: Home & Kitchen

Try this, it might safe your cane as it really feel lighter and easier to swing with a better grip. It is fuller and thicker.


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## Blindside

Alan0354 said:


> That said, the rattan cane I have is 1.1" thick, very different from 1" even though it sounds small difference. Does your rattan have skin? Big difference if it is without skin. They are out of stock right now, if they have one that is bigger than 1.1" and weight heavier than what I have so it would be like 12 to 13oz when cut to fit me, I might still consider getting it.



Yes mine has skin on.  I don't use them because I think they are too heavy for me, but some of the fighters use 31x1.1 sticks, that gets to be some hefty sticks, and it sucks to be hit by them but they aren't magic.  I assume you are getting this cane from bloodsport.com?  That is the same place where I get my fighting sticks from.  If these are the same sticks I will say that they don't look like a standard cane, the curve is too big, it just won't be an incognito weapon.  Attaching pics of two of my friends fighting, Josh has the cane, Josh is 240ish for scale.


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## Alan0354

Blindside said:


> Yes mine has skin on.  I don't use them because I think they are too heavy for me, but some of the fighters use 31x1.1 sticks, that gets to be some hefty sticks, and it sucks to be hit by them but they aren't magic.  I assume you are getting this cane from bloodsport.com?  That is the same place where I get my fighting sticks from.  If these are the same sticks I will say that they don't look like a standard cane, the curve is too big, it just won't be an incognito weapon.  Attaching pics of two of my friends fighting, Josh has the cane, Josh is 240ish for scale.


Yes, it's the same place, Their cane is a lot heavier than the other rattan canes. It's the heaviest I can find. Here are two pictures, first is the canes when I first received them. The second is after I cut off the hook, stained them dark brown. They look quite innocent to me after I did the transformation.




This is my 3 after transformation, 3 different lengths. Look inconspicuous .




They are about 11oz, it's getting a little light for me. They are out, when they have new stock, I would ask for an even heavier ones. I hope to get one about 12 to 13oz after trimming. They must be about 1 1/8" with that kind of weight. That's huge. But see, I use it for self defense, I don't do twirling and all the fancy moves that require sticks that are lighter.


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## Blindside

Alan0354 said:


> Yes, it's the same place, Their cane is a lot heavier than the other rattan canes. It's the heaviest I can find. Here are two pictures, first is the canes when I first received them. The second is after I cut off the hook, stained them dark brown. They look quite innocent to me after I did the transformation.
> 
> This is my 3 after transformation, 3 different lengths. Look inconspicuous .
> 
> They are about 11oz, it's getting a little light for me. They are out, when they have new stock, I would ask for an even heavier ones. I hope to get one about 12 to 13oz after trimming. They must be about 1 1/8" with that kind of weight. That's huge. But see, I use it for self defense, I don't do twirling and all the fancy moves that require sticks that are lighter.



Those do look a lot better, nice job!


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## Alan0354

Blindside said:


> Those do look a lot better, nice job!


Thanks

I am glad to hear that this heavy rattan can hit very hard also. I kept hearing people said rattan cannot hit hard, that's why it's used for practice only. Not all rattan cane are the same, most are skinless and 7/8" only, they weight about 6oz. Of cause you don't expect stopping power from those. People have to judge by the size and whether it has skin or not. 

I would put my bet on the 1.1" rattan cane with skin over a 7/8" hickory cane. 

Those heavy rattan canes are not cheap. It's like $50 each including tax and shipping. I hope I can find one that is 12 to 13oz after trimming, that should be plenty heavy to have stopping power. Even though I can swing a cane that is a little heavier, but as I get older, I will be weaker, sooner or later, I have to back off and even back to the 11oz cane.


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