# The Ram Techniques



## MJS (Nov 16, 2007)

Just curious as to how everyone here works these techniques, when dealing with the tackle.  Do you focus more on an attempted tackle from an untrained person, who more than likely is going to be sloppy with the execution or do you address them more from a wrestler/grappler type takedown, ie: double leg?  What adjustments, if any, have you had to make?

Mike


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## kaizasosei (Nov 16, 2007)

the doubleleg is crude compared to what i experienced with one wrestler.  he would attack the lowerbody so technically vunerable to strikes, but boy did he have some slick techniques. such as, he would place his foot right beside your foot blocking escape and then with the hands, push down... also he would use his legs amazingly, hooking before takedowns and when on ground he also had some leg work geared to pin the person down.  the  most  dangerous thing i noticed is the steady  sometimes  deceptively slower  but constant  driving into the opponent.  
  we had some really cool wrestling bouts. i learned alot.  
just as i have my techniques that i am very confident work, so did he have many interesting moves.  i would consider most of them to be forms of sutemi or sacrifice moves not ideal for multiple attackers or opponents that strike effeciently.  but im sure he could hold his own in a typical situation.
i found it interesting to find someone that was as scientific and enthusiastic about techniques.  really tough cookie and a really great sport too.  i'm sure we both learned alot.
also, i positively confirmed that he is using principles of aiki to do the moves. although the posture is quite different from typical aiki arts.. 
since then i have started studying new ground principles and lots of moves  and chokes.

j


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## Jdokan (Nov 17, 2007)

Having done very little grappling I cannot speak from experience, but being an engineer I over-analyze everything.  IMO I would think that the targets that are presented by the opponent are targets that we really can't train against without doing permanent damage...I would think a driving downward elbow(or a cutting forearm) to the base of the spine, in that c4-7 range would be devastating....and would be my first thought of defense...I did have one training partner discuss a technique that he had used in an actual street altercation: as the tackler went to grab him the defender placed his hand(forearms)s on the attackers shoulders and kicked his own legs way out and up behind him.  The result was the the attacker got driven face first into the sidewalk, all but knocking himself out.  Getting up totally stunned and bleeding profusely the attack subsided....  I've always kept that defensive technique in my mind...  Has anybody else used this somewhat similarly???


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## MJS (Nov 18, 2007)

Jdokan said:


> Having done very little grappling I cannot speak from experience, but being an engineer I over-analyze everything. IMO I would think that the targets that are presented by the opponent are targets that we really can't train against without doing permanent damage...I would think a driving downward elbow(or a cutting forearm) to the base of the spine, in that c4-7 range would be devastating....and would be my first thought of defense...


 
An elbow to the back is effective.  Of course, and I'm not speaking for myself when I say this, but what I hear others say...but the usual reply to this move is basically that if it was possible, why isn't it used in the ring?  Again, I'm not disputing the strike.  If the person doing the tackle was not trained well in takedowns, its something that you may be able to pull off.



> I did have one training partner discuss a technique that he had used in an actual street altercation: as the tackler went to grab him the defender placed his hand(forearms)s on the attackers shoulders and kicked his own legs way out and up behind him. The result was the the attacker got driven face first into the sidewalk, all but knocking himself out. Getting up totally stunned and bleeding profusely the attack subsided.... I've always kept that defensive technique in my mind... Has anybody else used this somewhat similarly???


 
Yes, the sprawl, as its called is certainly a great defense.  

As for the techniques in question, I'm interested to see how the rest of the Kenpo world trains the initial attack. 

Mike


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## Blindside (Nov 18, 2007)

Jdokan said:


> I did have one training partner discuss a technique that he had used in an actual street altercation: as the tackler went to grab him the defender placed his hand(forearms)s on the attackers shoulders and kicked his own legs way out and up behind him. The result was the the attacker got driven face first into the sidewalk, all but knocking himself out. Getting up totally stunned and bleeding profusely the attack subsided.... I've always kept that defensive technique in my mind... Has anybody else used this somewhat similarly???


 
That is called a sprawl, and is pretty much taught to everyone who has ever done wrestling.  If I had to train just one takedown defense, that would be it.

Lamont


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## Blindside (Nov 18, 2007)

MJS said:


> Just curious as to how everyone here works these techniques, when dealing with the tackle. Do you focus more on an attempted tackle from an untrained person, who more than likely is going to be sloppy with the execution or do you address them more from a wrestler/grappler type takedown, ie: double leg? What adjustments, if any, have you had to make?
> 
> Mike


 
The techniques largely train for the untrained attacker, and they are what we teach on strictly a curricullum basis.  Given that we live in a wrestling town, many of our students come to us with a wrestling background, and so lots of wrestling techs have infiltrated the background knowledge of the school, and this shows up in our self-defense drills and in sparring.  I'd always rather train expecting the worst, so I assume the guy has some training.  

Lamont


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## MJS (Nov 20, 2007)

Blindside said:


> The techniques largely train for the untrained attacker, and they are what we teach on strictly a curricullum basis. Given that we live in a wrestling town, many of our students come to us with a wrestling background, and so lots of wrestling techs have infiltrated the background knowledge of the school, and this shows up in our self-defense drills and in sparring. I'd always rather train expecting the worst, so I assume the guy has some training.
> 
> Lamont


 
Great post!  Two things caught my eye.  First, when you said the techs. largely train for the untrained attacker, and second, I'd always rather train for the worst.  

I'm with you on the second part.  This is my mentality as well.  Sure, we may never fall into the worst case scenario, but why not train for it?  I'd rather be over prepared than under.  Sure, some will say that there are no ninjas in the parking lot, and yes, chances are, the person that attacks us will be the 'average Joe' but IMHO, not taking the time to prep. for the "what if" may hurt us in the long run.  

With the grappling/MMA craze, I think it would be best to train these techniques against someone with a wrestling/grappling background.


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## MJS (Nov 20, 2007)

I know we have more Kenpo folks than this out there.  How do you all train the takedown/tackle defenses?


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## bushidomartialarts (Nov 20, 2007)

The Ram series would definitely be effective only against an untrained guy (which, let's face it, is most of our attackers).  

Against a trained grappler, there are plenty of good moves (sprawl, crossface, choke, etc).  We train them in our mma/sparring class.


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## Atlanta-Kenpo (Jan 30, 2008)

I am a grappler and quit frankly these techniques do not work the way they are taught.  There are aspects of them that will work if modified.

B


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## kaizasosei (Jan 30, 2008)

> Getting up totally stunned and bleeding profusely the attack subsided.... I've always kept that defensive technique in my mind... Has anybody else used this somewhat similarly???



yes.  i had to do it about 50 times with the wrestler.  sprawl, yes i remember now-a most natural way to escape... problem was that as i was waiting to see what else he could do, he setup by using fakes and hooks and very gradually achieved the takedown- although he kindof coaxed me into it a bit too much at times.  -but hey, good technique is annoying when it works on you-against you-i mean.


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## MJS (Jan 30, 2008)

Atlanta-Kenpo said:


> I am a grappler and quit frankly these techniques do not work the way they are taught. There are aspects of them that will work if modified.
> 
> B


 
Thanks for reviving this thread!   Please feel free to breakdown the techs. for the sake of how they need to be or should be modified. 

Mike


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jan 30, 2008)

MJS said:


> Thanks for reviving this thread!  Please feel free to breakdown the techs. for the sake of how they need to be or should be modified.
> 
> Mike


 
I'm a kenpoista first, and a grappler second, but with no small affection for wrasslin & GJJ/BJJ. I'm among the cynics when it comes to the Ram techs. What I have taken to using as a skill against tackles and shoots as a first line of defense is an SL-4 modification of their primary fighting position, the braced index. It looks like a "left over right" meditating position, leading with the right side, but there's more to it than that. 

One only-apparent disadvantage of the position is the lead hand looks to be positioned high enough to shoot under, head toward rear of hip or drop to a single leg. I discovered the hard way, nicht zo. Drilling this at Doc's one night a couple years ago, I'd shoot, and some little bugger half my size would drop the elbow (so the lead arm is vertical in orientation), and bury it in the nook between my neck and shoulders while dropping his weight forward with a step & settling. Hurts like an SOB, and stops you cold in your tracks. 

So...I take it home, teach it to my BJJ buddies, and we spend a couple hours playing with it. I still think I can now get around it, but as a first-impact stopper, it's a bit like shooting on a car bumper...car don't move, and your shoulder hurts like heck. You can then bounce the guy backward with a push-drag and a brisk nudge, which places him in perfect distance for opening a can od whoop-*** on him. If he returns, you're in a great pre-position to go to a sprawl, with one arm inserted fingers-floorward between you, and the other over the top.

As for the Ram techs, I'm one of the guys who says....they suck against anybody with training; develop new strategies, and toss them.

Best Regards,

Dave Crouch


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## kaizasosei (Jan 31, 2008)

any position can be seen as the end or endposition as well as the startingposition.  that is very important for rythem and setups.

a good fighter will use the reactions of the other.  
for example, if he sees that you sprawl when he shoots, he'll very calmly think up some way of using exactly that sprawl position to takedown.

of course, if striking were allowed, i think it would be a very bad idea to shoot in like that.  because, the first or second time will be the last.  knees and elbows, punches-can also throw quite easily after a little smash-see -kaitennage-.
.  someone that shoots in on someone that is equally fast and knows how to strike is risking too much.  also, i much prefer the standing up and not getting too tangled up way of fighting.  
  i learned that striking is a vital part of fighting.  however, to fight without striking was a sportive and interesting experience for me.   i  purposely did not use  all my abilities because if i establish that i already won, or i feel equal or on good terms with someone, then learning is far more important than winning.  that is the best time to test out the limits of the technique.  
like one teacher said-if you are using too much power, you are doing something wrong.


wrestling was interesting.  i did a little in gymclass in highschool, but this friend was a college wrestler.  although i had more hardships than i had expected.  it may be due to some inflexibility still.  but most of all, i learned so much about the strategies and techniques of wrestling.  gave me a harder time that the bjj in that the goal is not necessarily submission, but stalling and pinning on back.-


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 31, 2008)

Atlanta-Kenpo said:


> I am a grappler and quit frankly these techniques do not work the way they are taught. There are aspects of them that will work if modified.
> 
> B


It depends on whom is teaching.
Sean


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Feb 1, 2008)

Touch Of Death said:


> It depends on whom is teaching.
> Sean


 
My thoughts exactly.  I'm a grappler to and disagree with this notion of the Ram techniques not working.  Half the time I see people doing the Ram's against the wrong attacks.  All three of the tackles are different...but like 5 people seem to know this.


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## Doc (Feb 3, 2008)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> My thoughts exactly.  I'm a grappler to and disagree with this notion of the Ram techniques not working.  Half the time I see people doing the Ram's against the wrong attacks.  All three of the tackles are different...but like 5 people seem to know this.



Works for me!


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## Bodhisattva (Feb 5, 2008)

MJS said:


> Just curious as to how everyone here works these techniques, when dealing with the tackle. Do you focus more on an attempted tackle from an untrained person, who more than likely is going to be sloppy with the execution or do you address them more from a wrestler/grappler type takedown, ie: double leg? What adjustments, if any, have you had to make?
> 
> Mike


 
although we don't train Kenpo.. when working with students in these situations, we start off sloppy (to let them learn the move) and then as they get better at the counter - we tighten up our game.

So: Sloppy at first - then tighten it up as they grow and learn.


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