# taiji strength method



## ggg214 (Apr 6, 2008)

taiji has not only soft and confortable training practice, but also has some kind of method to strengthen body power
there is one:




 
but i don't have any chance to train this. have you ever practised this.
does it work?

and is there any other method to strengthen body power?


----------



## ggg214 (Apr 6, 2008)

another clip:


----------



## Sukerkin (Apr 6, 2008)

ggg214 said:


> but i don't have any chance to train this. have you ever practised this.
> does it work?
> 
> and is there any other method to strengthen body power?


 
I have not practised this art, tho' I would like to but I cannot see any reason why the training shown in the clips would fail to develop strength.  After all, I can attest very much to the positive effects that wielding a sword in training for the past five years or more has had.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Apr 6, 2008)

This is I beleived used by Chen style and my Yang style sifu has shown me similar movements with a shorter staff but he did say it should be a long staff like the videos you supplied

However I have not trained it since I do not have a long staff.


----------



## East Winds (Apr 6, 2008)

I think as well as a strength training exercise it is an exercise to develop the movement of energy from the body into the business end of the staff. Certainly used in Traditional Yang style for that purpose.

Very best wishes


----------



## Formosa Neijia (Apr 6, 2008)

ggg214 said:


> taiji has not only soft and confortable training practice, but also has some kind of method to strengthen body power
> there is one:
> 
> 
> ...



Pole training is common amongst almost all taiji styles. The flavor in that clip is Chen and the moves show their preferences. Keep looking on youtube and you'll find Fu Zhong-wen and other greats doing the pole in their styles.

I've done pole in a couple of different styles and it does work to build whole body power. Thing is, you have to be very careful with the long heavy pole or you'll hurt your joints. I've tweaked my elbow many times. 

Another way to train than is shown would be the way I learned from Yang style. You do many of the same moves in the clip but no faijing. You just move the pole back and forth smoothly and calmly. This helps build the long power. The jerking of the pole in that clip is from Chen's preference for short power/fajing -- what hurt my elbows. 

Other taiji strengthening practices include taiji ball (Dr. Yang has a great video on this) and taiji bang.


----------



## ggg214 (Apr 6, 2008)

i have asked about the effect under this kind of training. my master said it is at least a short way to build up a whole body power, camparing with soft practice. but he also said it needs proper instruction, otherwise it would hurt yourself. 
once my friend(he is practise Sun style of xing yi) broght a pole, 2.5 meters long, 4 kilogram weight. it was hard to be hold by one hand in one end. it's really a tough work.
although it has these advantages, i don't start this training, with the same reason as Xue sheng:hard to find a proper pole.


----------



## Formosa Neijia (Apr 7, 2008)

ggg214 said:


> although it has these advantages, i don't start this training, with the same reason as Xue sheng:hard to find a proper pole.



Start with what you have. I was once taught these exercises with a wushu weight pole. One of my teachers preferred it. The exercises aren't just about whole body power. This is going to depend on your style. Some groups do it more for fajing. My teacher who did pole training with the light pole did it for pure fajing. Chen styles usually uses the longer, heavier pole for the fajing. But it isn't a must to have it. Shorter, thinner white waxwood will do the trick.

It's the technique, not the size.


----------



## ggg214 (Apr 7, 2008)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMlVUcNQIhE
there is another traditional equipment for strength training.
one of my uncle who is Er Mei can play with a stone lock in 30 kilogram.
i think it may be good for CMA, more useful in real fight.
how do you think?


----------



## Formosa Neijia (Apr 9, 2008)

ggg214 said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMlVUcNQIhE
> there is another traditional equipment for strength training.
> one of my uncle who is Er Mei can play with a stone lock in 30 kilogram.
> i think it may be good for CMA, more useful in real fight.
> how do you think?



I think you're getting further away from what taiji can teach you. Most people don't understand what taiji power is about and how to build it. It doesn't work in ways that we Westerners are used to thinking. So to really get taiji power, you have to put away a lot of thinking especially about how power is built in other martial arts. 

Surrender to the process is a big part of learning taiji. Few can do it.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Apr 9, 2008)

Formosa Neijia said:


> I think you're getting further away from what taiji can teach you. Most people don't understand what taiji power is about and how to build it. It doesn't work in ways that we Westerners are used to thinking. So to really get taiji power, you have to put away a lot of thinking especially about how power is built in other martial arts.
> 
> Surrender to the process is a big part of learning taiji. Few can do it.


 
agreed


----------



## ggg214 (Apr 10, 2008)

Formosa Neijia said:


> I think you're getting further away from what taiji can teach you. Most people don't understand what taiji power is about and how to build it. It doesn't work in ways that we Westerners are used to thinking. So to really get taiji power, you have to put away a lot of thinking especially about how power is built in other martial arts.
> 
> Surrender to the process is a big part of learning taiji. Few can do it.


 
really?
how do you think what the real taiji power is built? 
in my opinion, taiji power is no different as other martial art. but the way to get the power may be different: gaining the power from soft movement. is that right? 
many practitioners believe and try in this way, then few can be accept as gaining the real power. what's the problem? i don't know.
until i met my master, i knew there were another way to gain, what i think, the real power: gaining the power from hard way. playing with heavy white waxwood is a way, playing with heavy taiji ball is also the same way. all right, you may think it's not the right way. but it can be used as even playing with external martial art practitioners.
if the power can win the application, i think at least it's not so wrong at all. i know you all are practising this for many years, you all have experience in winning when appllicats, but you should not say you are right and other is not right, because we are training in different way.


----------



## Formosa Neijia (Apr 10, 2008)

ggg214 said:


> really?
> how do you think what the real taiji power is built?
> in my opinion, taiji power is no different as other martial art. but the way to get the power may be different: gaining the power from soft movement. is that right?
> many practitioners believe and try in this way, then few can be accept as gaining the real power. what's the problem? i don't know.
> ...



You asked what people thought. 

My guess is that you're a Chen stylist, right?

I say that because you asked about translating ba mian zhi cheng in the other thread and that's a Chen style term. Now you're talking about heavy balls and long poles and stone locks. 

Chen style is different and operates in ways that are different from most other styles like Yang, Wu, and Wu(Hao). So yes, your training system is different. 

But even with Chen style, the power is not quite the same as other martial arts. 

Here's something (the top book on Chen style) to point you in the right direction: &#38472;&#27663;&#22826;&#26997;&#25331;&#22294;&#35498; by &#38472;&#37995;. 
(Us Westerners now have a translation of this great classic available:
http://www.inbiworld.com/index.php?newlocal=0&newlang=_en )


----------



## ggg214 (Apr 11, 2008)

in fact i am practising Wu&#65288;&#21556;&#65289;style.
i have bought the book you mentioned.
but you are right, my training system is totally different than other style.
my master would like to call it taiji's external training method. 
there is a saying that &#22235;&#20004;&#25320;&#21315;&#26020; (it may be translated as small weight can beat a power equal to a thousand gram). and we believe there is a premise that you first have gained the thousand gram power.
under this understanding, i opened this thread to ask you how to built up the heavy power.


----------



## Formosa Neijia (Apr 11, 2008)

ggg214 said:


> in fact i am practising Wu&#65288;&#21556;&#65289;style.
> i have bought the book you mentioned.
> but you are right, my training system is totally different than other style.
> my master would like to call it taiji's external training method.
> ...



Seeing as how you're doing Wu style in Shanghai, I would recommend the following videos:















From your description, what your teacher is doing is quite different from most taiji schools Wu included. Because of that, I wouldn't get upset if I were you when people disagree with those methods. Your methods seem unorthodox for the style as far as I know.


----------



## ggg214 (Apr 14, 2008)

in fact, the method, practising the heavy white waxwood, is popular in taiji. even in shanghai, it's not taught in public. but i know many masters has their own white waxwood to train their whole body power. 
i think gaining the heavy power is not the unique requirement for my lineage .


----------



## Xue Sheng (Apr 14, 2008)

ggg214 said:


> in fact, the method, practising the heavy white waxwood, is popular in taiji. even in shanghai, it's not taught in public. but i know many masters has their own white waxwood to train their whole body power.
> i think gaining the heavy power is not the unique requirement for my lineage .


 
It is part of Traditional Yang Style as it comes from Tung Ying Jie


----------



## Formosa Neijia (Apr 14, 2008)

ggg214 said:


> in fact, the method, practising the heavy white waxwood, is popular in taiji. even in shanghai, it's not taught in public. but i know many masters has their own white waxwood to train their whole body power.
> i think gaining the heavy power is not the unique requirement for my lineage .




The long pole is taught by almost all northern Chinese martial arts. So no, it's not exactly unique to your lineage. Thing is, most taiji styles save it for nearly the last thing because there are other, more important, things for taiji stylists to work on first. Things like zhan,lian, nian, sui (sticking, adhering, following and...um...sticking) are much more important.

Long pole skills and the strengths they bring aren't the main point of taiji training. If long pole or strength methods are your thing, you should do a style that specializes in them, like bajiquan or something.

As you say, your teacher has a very unusual outlook.


----------



## ggg214 (Apr 14, 2008)

to neijia

there is a situation most properly happened when push hand with external martial art practitioner: they don't know how to protect their center, but their center is rooted in the ground, no matter how hard you push or pull or throw them on other direction, they just don't move a little. in this sisuation, any technique of taiji is useless. the only way is that  you have more strength than his center, and shot dirctely to his center. what you gained from the long pole training is come to use. 

but in taiji push hand, every one knows how to protect its center, and to find others' center&#65288;&#23432;&#20013;&#29992;&#20013;&#65289;. who finds the other's center first, who wins the game. it's the rule for taiji. but in a fight or application or the situation i said above, even when you find the center, you don't have enough power to break it down, you dont win the game .

 it's about &#21151;&#21147;(since i think you know the Chinese character and i don't know how to translate this, so i simply typed the chinese).

maybe lack of &#21151;&#21147; is one of the problem why many taiji practitioners who even practise taiji for many years still can't fight.


----------



## Formosa Neijia (Apr 15, 2008)

ggg214 said:


> to neijia
> 
> there is a situation most properly happened when push hand with external martial art practitioner: they don't know how to protect their center, but their center is rooted in the ground, no matter how hard you push or pull or throw them on other direction, they just don't move a little. in this sisuation, any technique of taiji is useless. the only way is that  you have more strength than his center, and shot dirctely to his center. what you gained from the long pole training is come to use.
> 
> ...



Your example is interesting. 

One of my baguazhang teachers once told me that taiji was worthless because if someone burned down your house and you weren't there, you couldn't use taiji to go and attack them afterwards. 

In the situation you describe above, there would be no force by the other person to turn back on themselves -- taiji's main idea. Personally I would just use my xingyi or bagua. 

As to &#21151;&#21147; (gongli), I'm not sure how to translate that either to make it clear to others. The closest meaning is "martial power" but this type of power is considered crude by taiji standards. Taiji uses jin, not li.

Rather than try to explain the difference, I'm going to direct you to a site on Wang Pei-sheng &#29579;&#22521;&#29983;, a famous Wu style master in Beijing. 

http://www.ycgf.org/

The site is in English and Chinese. Their articles are great. They even have ones on jin vs. li: http://www.ycgf.org/Articles/TJ_Jin/TJ_Jin1.html

Again, I don't think that training long pole is bad. I do it too. But we have to be careful that we aren't just using muscle in the taiji.


----------



## ggg214 (Apr 15, 2008)

you are right, no chinese martial art is training for li&#65288;&#21147;&#65289;,but for jin. even in this kind of power training, muscle should be abandoned and replace by the whole body power.

Wang is belong to the northen Wu style. as i know, his way to express the style is different from the style i learn, and even different from the style of Ma yue liang's lineage. but i still would like to read his articles, and thanks for your post.


----------



## Formosa Neijia (Apr 16, 2008)

ggg214 said:


> you are right, no chinese martial art is training for li&#65288;&#21147;&#65289;,but for jin. even in this kind of power training, muscle should be abandoned and replace by the whole body power.
> 
> Wang is belong to the northen Wu style. as i know, his way to express the style is different from the style i learn, and even different from the style of Ma yue liang's lineage. but i still would like to read his articles, and thanks for your post.



So a question for you: who does your group say "whole body power" in Chinese? I'm curious.


----------



## ggg214 (Apr 16, 2008)

&#25972;&#20307;&#21170;zheng ti jin&#65311;


----------



## Formosa Neijia (Apr 17, 2008)

ggg214 said:


> &#25972;&#20307;&#21170;zheng ti jin&#65311;



Oh, a direct translation. I feel silly for asking now. 

Thanks.


----------



## ggg214 (Apr 17, 2008)

you are welcome!


----------

