# Hayes



## Josh Oakley (Nov 19, 2008)

I have a quick question. What caused Hayes to be separated from the Bujinkan?


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## newtothe dark (Nov 20, 2008)

That is most definetly not a quick question. If you search the ninja threads there is many talks on it. But basicly he is TOSHINDO now that is his thing.


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## Josh Oakley (Nov 20, 2008)

Absolutely a quick question. Never asked for a quick _answer, _though.


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## zeeberex (Nov 21, 2008)

newtothe dark said:


> That is most definetly not a quick question. If you search the ninja threads there is many talks on it. But basicly he is TOSHINDO now that is his thing.




i believe I heard it that he amicablly split with the Bujinkan and started his own organization.


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## Kreth (Nov 21, 2008)

zeeberex said:


> i believe I heard it that he amicablly split with the Bujinkan and started his own organization.


If by amicably you mean that his plaque was publically taken down from the rank board at Honbu Dojo, then yes.


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## jks9199 (Nov 22, 2008)

At this point, I think there are only two people who know his exact status, and the why's of that status.  Hayes and Hatsumi.  Neither is saying much publicly, from what I've read.  It appears to be clear that Hayes is no longer considered part of the Bujinkan; whether he still has a student/teacher relationship with Hatsumi (or has had this for some time) is less clear.  In the end -- it's their business.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Nov 22, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> At this point, I think there are only two people who know his exact status, and the why's of that status.  Hayes and Hatsumi.  Neither is saying much publicly, from what I've read.  It appears to be clear that Hayes is no longer considered part of the Bujinkan; whether he still has a student/teacher relationship with Hatsumi (or has had this for some time) is less clear.  In the end -- it's their business.



Jks9199 it is very clear within the Bujinkan where Hayes status is now.  *Plaque taken down*.  George Ohashi stating publicly on his board that if people wish this to be considered hamon then do so.  See attached link.

*Publically it is very obvious where things stand.*


Having said that personally I think that Hayes Sensei is a *fine martial artist and an outstanding writer*.  He did a great job is helping to spread the Bujinkan and *deserves tons of respect* for that.


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## GBlues (Nov 26, 2008)

Boy you opened a hornets nest with this question. Trust me I've been down the To-shindo/Bujinkan conversation before. If you want to know Stephen Hayes's response go to his website and ask personally. It's easier and faster and you'll get an answer that you can at least appreciate, rather than getting sarcastic statements. Apparently this is a real bad subject in the ninjutsu world. That's my best advice, and humble opinion.


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## Kreth (Nov 26, 2008)

GBlues said:


> Boy you opened a hornets nest with this question. Trust me I've been down the To-shindo/Bujinkan conversation before. If you want to know Stephen Hayes's response go to his website and ask personally. It's easier and faster and you'll get an answer that you can at least appreciate, rather than getting sarcastic statements. Apparently this is a real bad subject in the ninjutsu world. That's my best advice, and humble opinion.


The screenshot above is taken from the Honbu dojo administrator, website. I think that's a pretty clear answer, no matter what Hayes' website says...


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## SKB (Dec 2, 2008)

WOW! This one again?????? I love how most folks try to take a middle ground and leave the issue between the two folks who know the answer. Note I said "most folks".


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## Cryozombie (Dec 3, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> In the end -- it's their business.


 
I dunno... I think to some extent it's the buisness of their students.  But I believe that there is a responsibility between a teacher and a student that goes both ways... 

My teacher has the responsibility to teach me what he knows to the best of his ability and at the level of my ability (meaning he doesn't need to teach me material I am not ready to learn or it is not safe for me to learn...) and provide me a "safe" (after all what we practice can be dangerous) envrionment.  He should be open, honest and comunicative and leave his personal issues out of the dojo (dont kick my *** cuz he argued with his wife earlier) 

I have the responsibility to show up, prepared to learn, be attentive and receptive... do my best to utilize a level of control that helps foster that safe environment I mentioned above (It wouldnt do for me to come snap someones arm in 3 places every time I show up for practice) and keep our training hall in good condition... etc...

I think that Lying to your students (and I'm not saying Hayes is lying, its a general statement) or misleading them about your training, (past or present) or doing things like holding back "sekret knowlage" until they pay extra to join your "sekret" inner circle (again, general statement not directed to/about Hayes) is sort of a violation of the teacher's responsibility.

I think that the Hayes/Hatsumi thing could fall into that catagory on both sides of the fence, where the relationship SHOULD be made clear to their students and not kept a secret between the two.  At the very least, if both sides are open and honest about it it would stop feeding the internet debate and allow us to stop typing and just go train.


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## SKB (Dec 3, 2008)

I have to agree, go train!!!


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## GBlues (Dec 4, 2008)

Kreth said:


> The screenshot above is taken from the Honbu dojo administrator, website. I think that's a pretty clear answer, no matter what Hayes' website says...


 
Yeah but everytime someone brings this question up, and somebody tries to give a simple easy no arguments answer you can back with, " Well, if you mean as in his plaque taken down from the wall, then yeah amicable" And all I'm saying is that if he wants to know ask the guy. Just because you pop something off of the internet don't make it true. Just means you got it off of the internet. I mean if a guy wants to know ask, ask both parties and make a decision, I personally have decided that I don't care one way or the other, not that important. M-kay?


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## Kreth (Dec 4, 2008)

GBlues said:


> Yeah but everytime someone brings this question up, and somebody tries to give a simple easy no arguments answer you can back with, " Well, if you mean as in his plaque taken down from the wall, then yeah amicable" And all I'm saying is that if he wants to know ask the guy. Just because you pop something off of the internet don't make it true. Just means you got it off of the internet. I mean if a guy wants to know ask, ask both parties and make a decision, I personally have decided that I don't care one way or the other, not that important. M-kay?


Except that it's not something randomly taken off the internet. We already know that Hayes denies anything happened, but I'll take the word of the Bujinkan Honbu dojo administrator over Hayes any day.


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## GBlues (Dec 4, 2008)

Here's the thing. Couple of things. My instructor asked me not to talk about this anymore as I am new to the art and don't know as much as some of the other people around about the whole hayes, hatsumi, thing. Truthfully for myself and speaking for myself it's not that big of a deal. If lineage is your thing then yeah, it probably is. If you got a hard on for the the bujinkan and hate everything hayes then yeah it probably is. But even in that picture that you put up on your post, it says, " Please don't make a fuss over this on the internet" Now I know that you probably did a search using Mr. Hayes's name, and got that post. But it doesn't help the fact that his name is not mentioned, and it is specifically said that, that person shall remain nameless. So in reality it could be any 10th dan that hatsumi has who's plaque was taken off of the wall. Just playing devil's advocate. Again, this is a bad subject for both Bujinkan, and To-shindo guys, and the longer that we keep bringing it up, the longer these arguments, and peddly little things will continue. What we should say, and that includes me and you, all of the Bujinkan and to-shindo guys should say when a new person asks this question, is very simply this. " We both the Bujinkan and To-Shindo practitioners have been told that this is a private matter between Mr. Hayes, and Soke Hatsumi ( or vice versa if this particular order of names bothers anyone), and that if you truly wish to know, you should take it up with one or both of them. We have been informed that this is a non-issue and does not concern either parties training regiment, as both are separate and unique in there own ways, and we should respect and honor both parties endeavor for enlightenment in the warrior ways." Now what is wron with that?! Nobody loses face, and we actually might be able to put this conversation to rest, because it really is not helping anybody, just making things worse for all involved.


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## Carol (Dec 4, 2008)

There isn't any doubt as to which 10th Dan it was.  Its not the Japanese way to be as direct as Americans.


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## Kreth (Dec 4, 2008)

GBlues said:


> What we should say, and that includes me and you, all of the Bujinkan and to-shindo guys should say when a new person asks this question....


*OR*
Toshindo newbies could stop claiming that everything is fine with Hayes' Bujinkan membership and everyone else is just jealous, which has been the spin the last few times this topic came up.


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## GBlues (Dec 4, 2008)

Yeah but that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying I don't know. And truthfully I don't care. What I'm learning feels right for me. THat's what matters. I just think that a man makes mistakes. If Mr. Hayes has made mistakes ok, every man does. Should you be held accountable your whole life for a small thing? Would you want to be held to the standards that apparently everyone else wants to hold him too? How would you feel if you were told, that you couldn't teach the way you wanted too? Maybe you've found that your way works better, for your students. Shouldn't you be allowed to try something different? Does it matter really in the great grand scheme of life if every to-shindo beginner doesn't know that Mr. Hayes is not a part of the Bujinkan? Really? If he learns to protect himself does it matter? I mean is it really worth ruining a mans reputation?

I mean don't get me wrong and I'm not trying to be rude or mean, but sometimes some of these conversations go down a road, where it seems like Mr. Hayes may have actually snuck into some of these guys' houses and pissed in there wheaties! LOL! I mean come on! I'm sure that somewhere, at some time, Hatsumi did something that he wasn't proud of either, or made a mistake that he wishes he could take back. Most people do. And Hatsumi, or Mr. Hayes, or any number of martial artists have made mistakes. Many times. There men, not gods, not immortals, men. Like you, like me, like everyone. Just they chose a different type of work than most men, a different life. 

If as an example I brought you out on a waterwell rig, probably for a lot of people something they have never done. If I told you when you asked a heartfelt question that, you really wanted answered and I said, " NO! That's not right. It's never gonna' be right, it's the wrong way to do it! Stop!" How would that make you feel or to take it even one step further, maybe somebody's dad worked in the water wells and had given him a wealth of knowledge, and he came to work for me, and says, " YOu know my dad says that we should mix the viscosity in the mud to exactly 35 when you first start is that how you want it done?" SO I reply, " Look, is your dad still drilling?" and the young man says, " Well no, he aint drilling anymore?"

"Well did he get fired?" 

"No, sir it was very amicable he and his boss decided that it was time for him to retire. He's done it along time."

" So basically your dad can't hack it anymore, and you think your gonna' just come out here and do drilling huh?" 

Probably I just made that young man feel really bad. He looks up to his dad to give him the knowledge that he needs. I never answered his question I just made him feel like his dad was loser. THe same is true with martial artists. We look up to our instructors for advice and knowledge, that we can't get from somebody else.

Now if that young man with his one day of me bad mouthing him and his dad, says, " SCrew it what does this guy know, my dad's been doing it for 30 some odd years. I'll start my own drilling business and show them all!" HE just might be better at it, than me, cause his dad has 30 years on me, and taught him what he needed to know, to survive in that industry.

How would you feel if you felt that you had found the martial art you have always been looking for, only to be told that it's not. OR that there are questions about YOUR instructors authenticity? Wouldn't it better if someone said, " You know you really should take this up with your instructor. He probably can answer this question better than me." OR are we so pompious and arrogant that we have to answer the question and perhaps steer someone away from an art that they truly feel like they belong in? These are questions that I have asked myself many times about more than one instructor, and I've come to the conclusion that I think Mr. Myagi from the karate kid was right. Remember what he said?

"Daniel-san you walk a road. Walk the left side ok, walk the right side ok. Walk in the middle and sooner or later *KWIK* squish like grape. Same same you do karate. You do karate yes, ok. You do karate no, ok. YOu do karate guess so and sooner or later  *KWIK* just like a grape." 

Now we sow the seeds of doubt into a young, or beginner martial artists head, and they'll do there martial art "guess so" they'll get hurt. In truth it doesn't matter what you study, so long as you practice and believe in it. Because without those nothing you train will work for you. But you put doubt and man, it's hard to get past that for alot of people. I know that your hearts are in the right place, mine is too, none of us want to see somebody get hurt, because they learned something that is ineffective, but by the same token. We all of us, have our own opinions on what is effective. I believe in to-shindo. I believe in Bujinkan, I believe in kenpo and half a dozen other arts I have seen or been exposed to, ( not to be confused with having studied, been exposed to.) I believe that yes there are problems in all martial arts, politics and stuff. BUt as experienced martial artists, shouldn't we all just be happy that they are learning something that they can and will be able to protect themselves with. Let's end this conversation about hatsumi and hayes. Who cares? If your doing martial arts do it because you love it, not because you want to walk around and brag about your instructor learned from the founder of such and such art, do it because it feels good to you. Do it because you have faith in it, and for god's sake, let other people do it for themselves. Whew I feel like a durned JW again. LOL!

 I hope I kind of made my point so that people will understand where I'm coming from. I guess I just see this as a mute point anymore. Both parties will do what they do. Regardless of right or wrong. And don't forget, that every instructor has students, and when they move on they don't always do as there told. Perhaps, just perhaps, some of these guys that are telling these to-shindo guys this stuff, aren't following there instructors wishes, and it's not Hayes's fault someone had been told a falicy. Maybe it's just another instructors way of trying to get students through his door. It happens in every art. Every style. But don't blame someone until you know for a fact that he is or is continuing to do so. Because in fact all that you know are rumors that he is still saying this, and it MAY not be the case. I have said this before and I will say it again. My instructor never told me that I could obtain rank in the bujinkan. It is a topic that again I have never asked about and don't need too. I do to-shindo, and if at a later date in my life I want to do Bujinkan I will seek out a qualified bujinkan instructor for that. For me this is the right course, for you and many other it may not be. For me bujinkan is not the right course right now, maybe later, it will be, who know what the future holds. My mind is open to the possibilities because brother there endless!


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Dec 5, 2008)

Gblues,

Getting your name removed IMO sounds like Hamon.

I am not part of the Bujinkan but if it is Hamon it is a serious offense.

It is not some small mistake it is a grave one and in some cases a shameful one.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 5, 2008)

I think if you practice in To Shin do under Mr. Hayes or one of his instructors that you should be proud to do so.  He is a fine martial artist and has a lot to offer.

What you need to also understand is that you are studying *To Shin Do* which is different than *Budo Taijutsu*.  Understand that their is a separation and that they are no longer one and the same.  If you get that then every thing is cool!

In the end you make a choice to train with someone based on their fitting your needs and having a skill that they can pass onto you.  Find the right instructor for you because in the end that is what is important.


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## GBlues (Dec 5, 2008)

Yeah I get that there different. Yes, Hayes was one of the reasons I went looking for ninjutsu, but I chose this style not because of him, but because of the instructor that I have now. That was what made my final decision. Not Mr. Hayes, I have alot of respect for the man, but I'm not learning from him, I'm learning from someone else who has been honest with me from day one. So I never felt the need to ask any of the questions some of the new guys are. I just figured if it was important my instructor would tell me, " Here's the deal..." and some things he has. Mostly because he comes on martial talk every so often and checks out the posts. He has pretty much set me straight on a few things here and there. From previous posts related to this subject. But anyways, yeah I know that they are seperate. 

However, now let me ask this question. Not regarding Mr. Hayes or anyone else. What is the significance of removing someone's Hamon, in a martial arts school? Is it a loss of face, or a more of, " Perhaps I promoted you too soon to this rank?" Maybe? OR is it that they have done something that goes directly against the head instructors wishes and or against the art?


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## KevinCasey (Dec 5, 2008)

GBlues said:


> What is the significance of removing someone's [intention stick], in a martial arts school?


 
I imagine this varies a lot by the teacher's personality and how they manage their relationships.  Our school maintains an intention stick board with rank markers, and occasionally, I need to remove someone from the board.

For me, the board is "my current students", so if someone is not coming to class for a substantial period, or they tell me that they are not going to be training at the Boulder Quest Center for the conceivable future, I take the stick down.  It just means, "not currently training with me."  It's emotionally neutral - it has no bearing on whether I approve or disapprove of how they are spending their time.  I also still consider the person to hold their rank, were they to return.

Now, my sense is that the word "hamon" had a special meaning in old-time Japanese society - a quality control mechanism that says, "I can't vouch for what this person is doing now - they're not just on-break from training; they're really doing their own thing."  I imagine that in a feudal and loyalty-based society, that's a bad thing.  I don't know what it means now in Japanese society, let alone in the mind of an enigmatic ninja master, other than a sense of seperation.

Since Dr. Hatsumi didn't issue an explanation or a formal statement of "hamon" or anything else, I assume that taking Mr. Hayes' intention stick down is an acknowledgement of the obvious - that To-Shin Do is a seperate thing from the Bujinkan.  I also figure that these guys are a little too big to bother with using such a thing as some passive-aggressive public flogging, so I take it as a simple acknowledgement of the reality that they lead different organizations now.  That's just branding, in the modern language of our day.


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## GBlues (Dec 5, 2008)

Ah that actually makes a little more sense now. So then I wonder why it's such a big deal to alot of people? Seems to me like it's a perfectly normal thing to do. As far as attendance goes, ie current students. I know my school has those sticks on the wall too, I figured it was a carry-over from japan. I'd never seen one before. I'll have to think on this some more. Just seems like a little thing that perhaps has been blown far out of proportion. Anyways thanks for the information, I greatly appreciate it.


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## KevinCasey (Dec 5, 2008)

Oh, I totally get why the debate happens.  We put a lot of faith in our teachers and our training - as we must to learn and advance - and so we all want to be reassured that we've got the good, real, and pure stuff.  Especially as Americans, we don't easily trust.

So, both Bujinkan and To-Shin Do practitioners want to feel that their path is the best path.  It's hard for us to accept, "best path for me" as good enough.  We want our path to be "best path for all people, for all times, everywhere."  That makes us feel like what we are doing is the ultimate path.

If we could read some additional significance into the actions of the seniors of our organization, we might find more evidence to support our fervent hope that our own path is the very best one.  It's unnecessary, but it's very human.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Dec 5, 2008)

If you wish to find more about Hamon

http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl

Go to the membership rules and look at page 19 which shows the differences of Hamon,Dakkai,Tsukoku,and Jomei.

I am not in the Genbukan but this is the only thing I can find in english explaining it.


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## Andy Moynihan (Dec 5, 2008)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> If you wish to find more about Hamon
> 
> http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl
> 
> ...


 

Ok.

Wow.

Then if it applies in the Booj as it does on that page....I get the impression, given the apparent public, while-class-was-going-on nature of the plaque occurence , and given that in Japanese culture that is an extremely rare thing to do in public...I get the impression that that ain't just "Go your own way, glasshoppah" bad that's like, "You are not my son" bad......


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## Cryozombie (Dec 5, 2008)

KevinCasey said:


> So, both Bujinkan and To-Shin Do practitioners want to feel that their path is the best path.  It's hard for us to accept, "best path for me" as good enough.



Actually, FWIW, most Bujinkan people *I* know have very little concern for what Hayes does in/with *Toshindo* as far as a concern for the "Best Path".

The debate arises because Hatsumi has stated openly that Hayes is doing somthing seperate, is not part of our organization, and we are not to train with him... 

Then Hayes denies that to his _*Toshindo *_students and they come on these discussion forums and "Correct" us about what is true in the _*Bujinkan. 
*_ 

That seems to be where the points of contention usually start.


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## Andy Moynihan (Dec 5, 2008)

Cryozombie said:


> Actually, FWIW, most Bujinkan people *I* know have very little concern for what Hayes does in/with *Toshindo* as far as a concern for the "Best Path".
> 
> The debate arises because Hatsumi has stated openly that Hayes is doing somthing seperate, is not part of our organization, and we are not to train with him...
> 
> ...


 
Ah.

Choosing one or the other path would be one thing but I can see how this would be something else again.


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## Aiki Lee (Dec 5, 2008)

I trained in To-shin-do for almost two years before our school switched to the jizaikan curriculum, and I never had any clue that there was any hostility between the bujinkan and to-shin-do. I always assumed people thought that bujinkan was the "traditional stuff" and to-shin-do was the "americanized" version.

When I joined the Illinois Quest center, I knew the "programs" were different, but I had no idea at the time that the organizations maintained no connection to each other. Guess I know now though.


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## SKB (Dec 5, 2008)

Kreth said:


> *OR*
> Toshindo newbies could stop claiming that everything is fine with Hayes' Bujinkan membership and everyone else is just jealous, which has been the spin the last few times this topic came up.


 
*OR*
SSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHHHH 

It gets old. Maybe let folks objectively lay out the facts? Then each person can decied if the even give a rat's *** about it in the end?


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## ginshun (Dec 9, 2008)

I can't believe that people actually care enough about this that there are current arguments going on.  Didn't all this happen like two years ago?


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## HaydenMorison (Dec 19, 2008)

This is regarding Hayes' plaque been taken off the wall of the Bujinkan.

I asked my sensei who has acheived a black belt in both To-shin Do and Bujinkan and this is what he thinks. 

Firstly, he believes that Hatsumi having spent decades with Hayes as his student (I'm guessing building a really close relationship as well) wouldn't do such a thing to Hayes without a deeper purpose. 

After training with eachother for decades, Hatsumi must find different ways of training and testing Hayes, so deeper and more complex methods of testing are done, such things as testing Hayes as a person and how he would react to taking down his plaque down from the Bujinkan, a test of ego I guess. 

Hatsumi still values him as a student, even if they are half way across the world from eachother and this is half the reason why it was done, more of a long distance test of personality.

After hearing this from my sensei it really opened my eyes to the true test of a martial artist, their spirit.

I hope this helps in understanding, although this is was what my sensei believed was going on and not sure if it is 100% fact, but interesting and insightful none the less.

- Hayden


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## Cryozombie (Dec 20, 2008)

:BSmeter:


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## jks9199 (Dec 20, 2008)

HaydenMorison said:


> This is regarding Hayes' plaque been taken off the wall of the Bujinkan.
> 
> I asked my sensei who has acheived a black belt in both To-shin Do and Bujinkan and this is what he thinks.
> 
> ...


I'm afraid that this is probably a little bit of putting as positive a spin on it as possible.

As I said before -- there's only the two people who really know what the status of their relationship is.  It seems rather clear that Hayes is no longer part of the Bujinkan.  Whether he has maintained a student-teacher relationship with Hatsumi is between them.  It's even possible that they each perceive the relationship differently... especially when you consider the challenges of communicating across cultures.

In the end, I think it's simple.  Train with the group that you're comfortable with and feel like you belong with.  Both groups offer some pretty cool and impressive stuff...


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## zeeberex (Dec 20, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> I'm afraid that this is probably a little bit of putting as positive a spin on it as possible.
> 
> As I said before -- there's only the two people who really know what the status of their relationship is.  It seems rather clear that Hayes is no longer part of the Bujinkan.  Whether he has maintained a student-teacher relationship with Hatsumi is between them.  It's even possible that they each perceive the relationship differently... especially when you consider the challenges of communicating across cultures.
> 
> In the end, I think it's simple.  Train with the group that you're comfortable with and feel like you belong with.  Both groups offer some pretty cool and impressive stuff...



Agreed, the business is theirs not ours. DONE


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## stephen (Dec 21, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> As I said before -- there's only the two people who really know what the status of their relationship is.



Some people argue that that may have been true before one of those people decided to make a public act of letting everyone else know....


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## Obi Wan Shinobi (Dec 28, 2008)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> If you wish to find more about Hamon
> 
> http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl
> 
> ...


 
*I read the whole membership rulebook, Man they are strict in the Genbukan......*


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## HKToshindo (May 19, 2009)

Anshu Hayes has commented on this. Now that people know the misunderstanding that went on, and the actions of some foreign students in Japan, maybe there can be some peace between Toshindo and other forms of ninjutsu.

www.stephenkhayes.com



> Questions and Answers - Part 4
> Two young men in Texas - Patrick Tow and Rayford Outland - decided to do a History Fair high school project about ninjutsu training and my work. If you might be interested in some minor points about my life and how I ended up where I did, check previous questions 1-4 and questions 5-8 and questions 9-11.
> 12. We realize this may be a touchy subject, but we heard you were expelled from the Bujinkans list of authorized judan 10th Degrees. We would love to hear your personal take on what happened.
> A few of my senior students did not want me to comment on this. They feel that to address no-name keyboard snipers makes me look defensive and gives them credibility. On the other hand, other students and friends feel that because there is so much pernicious false information and cowardly character slander on the internet, it might be time to address the issue.
> ...



I know that this does not paint the Bujinkan in a very good light. Despite the fact that there are students who live in Japan who would go against their teacher, I still wish to take a trip to continue my training in the land of ninjutsu. I have joined this forum to try to find the names of those that had a hand in this little incident in order to avoid them.


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## Cryozombie (May 19, 2009)

*edit*

Nevermind... Im not getting into this BS again.


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## Brian R. VanCise (May 19, 2009)

Here is the Bujinkan's dojo administrator's account of the situation taken from his bulletin board.






Now personally I feel that Stephen Hayes brought a lot of great exposure to the Bujinkan and from all accounts of people that I personally know that have trained with him he is an excellent martial practitioner! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





It is concrete that he is doing his own thing with *To Shin Do* and more power to him. It should also be as no surprise the actions that Hatsumi took. This happens in all organizations so we might as well get over it! 


In the martial world people train, grow and advance and some times people take another step and go out on their own.  *Good luck to Mr. Hayes and To Shin Do!*


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## ToShinDoKa (May 30, 2009)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Here is the Bujinkan's dojo administrator's account of the situation taken from his bulletin board.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

GREAT POST!

Also, check out SKHQuest.com and go to the densho articles: Anshu sets matters straight concerning that whole ordeal.  It has a similar tone, but is a rather _awesome _message!  

A _MUST READ _for all To-Shin Do practitioners and inquirers!!!


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## HKToshindo (Jul 20, 2009)

I have to apologize to all the Bujinkan members I may have offended.

I am now in Japan. I have learned the truth.

Dr. Hatsumi told&#12288;me himself the truth about the matter.

Mr Hayes has been lying to us. He knows, and has known for years that he has been out of the Bujinkan.

That is not all. He has been teaching us stuff he never learned from a real teacher. HIs time spent training in Japan has been much less than he claims. He actually had a home in a place in Japan as far away from Noda as London is from Warsaw, or New York is from Atlanta. Yet he talks about his years of living in Japan as if he could go to more than three or four classes a year.

I brought along the DVDs I had, and some of the teachers here were kind enough to explain and show how the mnovements were wrong. What Mr Hayes is teaching on his videos is very different from the way the Japanese teachers here want us to move. I have seen the differences and I know the reason for the differences.

I fee angry at Mr Hayes for lying to me. Worse, in the months that I have been training, hoping to have my movements corrected once I got to Japan, I have built up habits, bad habits. One person told me that I may never be able to overcome those habits. Ubnless I am willing to move to a place with a teacher and spend years concentrating on correcting my mistakes, I will never get good. I trust Mr Hayes and he knowengly lied to me for his profit.

I have not been posting because after I first posted I got an e-mail from someone refering to himself as Jikaku who warned me of this forum and told me to stay away. Like a fool I listend to him. I wanted to believe that all the stories were lies and that I could learn ninjutsu from Mr Hayes. I have to admit that it was my ego contolling me.

I know there are people that will attack me. They attacked this site to try to get people to ignore what is being said. I can now admit that Toshindo acts very much like a cult. I would urge people to get out of it now.

I do not think people can imagine just how soul crushing it is to find out that everything I had hoped and put my dreams on has been a lie. I marvel at what I see Dr Hatsumi doing and feel anger that I may not ever reach that level due to Mr Hayes. I feel shame that I beleived the lie even though it now seems so obvious. I feel sadness over the choices I have made. I now hate Mr Hayes with a passion for all the lies he has spread and the people he attacked to make himself rich.


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## Chris Parker (Jul 21, 2009)

Okay, friend, chill. If memory serves, you were originally here as a full devotee of Hayes and were yelling down the entire Bujinkan version of things, now you have gone to Japan and been given an alternate you are an absolute devotee of Hatsumi and yelling down Hayes and his organisation. Seriously, you need to find a balance which appears to be lacking...

Why were you so keen on Hayes being the real deal (for you)? You were stating that he was the absolute top Ninjutsu instructor and were going to learn, not from a teacher, but from his DVD Home Study Course. At that point, you had not visited a single class, as you said there were none near you, but were quite vehementally defending Hayes as the true faith. I would like to know what you based your assessment on? Just the books and articles?

You were advised that the Bujinkan and Toshindo organisations had some issues between them, with both giving versions of history which contradicted each other, and that if you decided to go with one (Toshindo), then that would most likely exclude you from the other. You have then gone to Japan, and seen exactly the same thing.

In Japan, you have met with instructors and students, including Hatsumi Sensei, who have given you a version which paints Hayes in a very different light to the one you already had him in. And this has given rise to some very angry feelings in you. Why? Hayes has presented the image to his students that he wants, Hatsumi is presenting the image to his students that he wants, both are (most likely) flawed and highly biased, in the end, it doesn't really matter. Go with the teacher you feel can help you most, and don't worry about the rest. Remember, Hatsumi has shown a habit of painting current students in very favourable colours, and then after they leave, saying that "they never really learnt anything, I never showed them anything, they were never here, they never really got it, etc". He did it with Hayes, with Brian McCarthy, even with Tanemura. The class after Tanemura left, Hatsumi got the group of teachers together to show them the "true" ninjutsu, which he had never shown before (to read between the lines, anyone who follows Tanemura will never really get the arts, because they were never taught while Tanmura was there).

This is not to denigrate Hatsumi or Hayes. Both have their agendas, and that is the normal way of things. The thing is not to take everything you hear as gospel, and not to get so consumed by the words of others that you base your own sense of worth (in the arts) on how you esteem them. They are just human, after all. Hatsumi and Hayes have both gotten quite rich off this...

If you find yourself getting angry at Hayes (you use the term "hatred" to describe your feelings towards a man you have never met or had any correspondance with as far as I know), I would gently recommend that you look to yourself. Hayes has not betrayed you, he has simply not lived up to the image you had in your mind... or rather, others have knocked him down from the lofty position he occupied in your mind. And that is not a fault of Hayes, rather it is something in yourself that needs looking at.


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## Omar B (Jul 21, 2009)

Gotta love that drama.


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## Satt (Jul 21, 2009)

At this point, I would train with either if there was a dojo close to me. :samurai:


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 21, 2009)

HKToshindo said:


> I have to apologize to all the Bujinkan members I may have offended.
> 
> I am now in Japan. I have learned the truth.
> 
> ...




HKToshindo do not feel the need to apologize nor do I believe you should feel this upset.  Personally I think it is great that you have had the opportunity to go to Japan and train with Sensei.  That is a very unique and rewarding opportunity. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  MartialTalk has quite a few members who are high ranking in the Bujinkan and there is some excellent information here.  Good luck and enjoy your training and do not swing to much one way or the other or in other words let your passion run you.  Good luck!


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## HKToshindo (Aug 3, 2009)

I feel asshamed because I work in a line of business that looks out for fraud, and yet I fell for a fraud.

Yes, Mr Hayes is a fraud.

He knows that he was not on good terms with Dr Hatsumi. He knew he had not been taught what as much as he wanted people to think. So when he told people that he was still getting letters from Dr Hatsumi he was lying.

He told these lies to make money. That is considered fraud. I fell for it.

I really feel bad about listening to people like Jikaku and SKB when they told be to avoid martialtalk because it was filled with negative Bujinkan people. I also of course listened to the attacks Mr Hayes made on those that pointed out his lack of training and his lies. That is not just fraud, but is the same tactics that groups like the Church of Scientology and the group that gassed the subways in Japan use. Reacting to someone pointing out problems with your story and actions by attacking them is something that would normally set off alarms in me, but I fell for Mr Hayes' use of it. I feel pretty stupid.

If anyone doubts what I say, they only need to come to Japan. Five minutes talking with people here, talking with Dr Hatsumi, will convince them of the truth.

I know that many of the folks that study Toshindo DO NOT WANT to face the truth. To do so would destroy their dreams and self image. I know because that is what motivated me to close my eyes to what is obvious. I urge them to consider the truth, find out for themselves and realize that they are following a fraud who will tell them anything to get their money.

What you learn is not what Dr Hatsumi is trying to teach. There are problems with the very basic ways of moving. One person told me that if you are in the Bujinkan you have a chance of having these mistakes pointed out to you but you never will if you follow Mr Hayes.

I am mad, but I had a chance to cool down a bit during my weeks in Japan. It was a great experience. The people were very nice in helping overcome my problems.


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## Chris Parker (Aug 3, 2009)

HKToshindo,

Seriously, let it go. Hayes is not a fraud (as opposed to someone like Ashida Kim, for instance [not fraud-busting, simply using a known and recognised name here, no debate needed]), he is simply teaching you his interpretation of what he learnt. And, for the record, although his time in Japan may have been very limited over the last decade or more, Hayes spent a number of years in Japan to begin with, originally learning from Tanemura Sensei (as Hatsumi's second-in-command, as it were), then Hatsumi himself.  This is as opposed to many other instructors having their Japan experience only a few weeks or months. So, yes, he is very experienced in the arts.

The issue you seem to be having is that you are being told two different versions of events, and cannot reconcile in your mind that two opposing people will have opposing stories. What Hayes teaches and what Hatsumi teaches and the differences between them should only matter to the students of the different schools. If you are being taught by Hayes' organisation, then the approach of Hatsumi will be "wrong", according to the way you are taught. If you are in Japan and learning from Hatsumi, then the Toshindo approach will be "wrong" from that point of view. And remember, they are both trying to teach different groups of people attracted for different reasons in very different environments. In that regard, no you will not have "mistakes" pointed out by the Toshindo group, because to them, they are not mistakes. So pick one, and don't worry about the other! It simply shouldn't matter to you. 

I urge you to stop you attacks on Hayes, as it will not be well-looked on here, and as I said earlier find some balance. I am happy that you have found people who you enjoy learning from, but they haven't helped you with your real problems yet. As long as you're still hanging onto this, you still have a few to get past.

Oh, and you may consider changing your username... just a thought.


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## Bruno@MT (Aug 3, 2009)

You know, the Jinenkan guys seem to be able to avoid all this drama I wonder what their secret is. It must be some special ninja internet invisibility kuji that makes people forget about them as soon as the drama starts.


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## Omar B (Aug 3, 2009)

HKToshindo said:


> I feel asshamed because I work in a line of business that looks out for fraud, and yet I fell for a fraud.
> Yes, Mr Hayes is a fraud.
> He knows that he was not on good terms with Dr Hatsumi. He knew he had not been taught what as much as he wanted people to think. So when he told people that he was still getting letters from Dr Hatsumi he was lying.
> He told these lies to make money. That is considered fraud. I fell for it.
> ...



Yeah man, we heard this story.  Could have saved yourself the trouble and asked "Can I really learn to fight from a tape?"  Because you can't.  Hayes is a genuine martial artist who has taught many.  Your feeling taken in because of his tapes (which are supplementary material, not main study tools) is your fault.


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## Michael Stinson (Aug 3, 2009)

So in 6 to 12 months are we going to be hearing from you about how bad the Bujinkan is because you get choked out by some BJJ guy?  Seriously...it seems like you went from drinking one kind of koolaid to another and now want to convert everyone else.

No organization OR person is perfect.  ALL organizations and people make mistakes including the new one you have picked as the holy grail.  I have been to Japan...I trained pretty intensively with both Bujinkan and To-shin Do and in the end felt that To-Shin Do had more of what 'I' was looking for.  It answered more successfully the questions and problems I saw in my life.  That doesn't make Bujinkan training bad...just not right for me.  Heck I also train in BJJ because it answers some questions that I felt my To-Shin Do training wasn't answering fully to my satisfaction.

Regardless of what certain people would like to believe it is not about there being a right way and wrong way.  It is about finding a path that is meaningful for your life.  Heck...sometimes it is even about finding the wrong path for a time that leads you to the right path...at least until the 'right' path veers one direction and you choose to veer another (See Genbukan, Jinenkan, To-Shin Do, etc).

Best of luck to you in your training.  I hope you find what you are seeking and offer caution in the mindset of attacking that which you have moved from.  In particular when you have no true experiences to speak from.


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## jks9199 (Aug 3, 2009)

HKToshindo said:


> What you learn is not what Dr Hatsumi is trying to teach. There are problems with the very basic ways of moving. One person told me that if you are in the Bujinkan you have a chance of having these mistakes pointed out to you but you never will if you follow Mr Hayes.



Which is why Stephen Hayes is no longer part of the Bujinkan.

Let it rest; you've find the path you want.  Other people may be quite happy with Toshindo or the Jinenkan or Genbukan.  Or something not at all ninjutsu...

Don't waste anymore of your energy on the past; use it instead to improve now.


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## Omar B (Aug 3, 2009)

Exactly man, MA is a personal journey and more people need to realize that or read Bruce Lee's books to understand the concept.  I've trained in Japanese styles, Korean styles, hell, I went Bujinkan crazy for a year but I've realized that karate right in my wheelhouse and that's that.


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## stephen (Aug 4, 2009)

Chris Parker said:


> If you are being taught by Hayes' organisation, then the approach of Hatsumi will be "wrong", according to the way you are taught. If you are in Japan and learning from Hatsumi, then the Toshindo approach will be "wrong" from that point of view.



I think that this is the important part, and the part that, although it seems obvious, is actually the sticking point. There are _many_ people who would argue that they're both 'really the same art taught a different way' or something like that. 

It's important to remember that they are, in fact, different. Choose what you like, but understand that it's a choice, and not simply one of teaching style or language of instruction.


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## SKB (Aug 4, 2009)

I believe I suggested you not spend time arguing with folks on here? You also wanted to talk to TSD folks, so I pointed you in that direction? I apologize if you think I mislead you somehow? 

Good luck in finding what it is you are looking for.........


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## shadycrzy (Oct 8, 2009)

This is why I love Ninjas! Everything is a perfect setup for an action movie:


> "My Bujinkan towers over your irrelevant To-Shin Do!"*





> "Oh really? Do you think you can withstand my crushing Earth Forms?"*





> "Hah! Your godai is no match for my koppojutsu!"*


If you could have seen the movie that just went through my head...
Good times.**
*Words in quote boxes not actual quotations, all quote boxes are used for dramatic/comedic effect
**Movie may or may not have been an epic combination of Shaft and Enter the Dragon


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## Hudson69 (Oct 9, 2009)

HKToshindo said:


> I have to apologize to all the Bujinkan members I may have offended.
> 
> I am now in Japan. I have learned the truth.
> 
> ...


 
In law enforcement you deal with a lot of people; this guy sounds like a zealot and his statements indicate that he probably never went to Japan.  If that is not the case I apologize, if it is then get back on your meds sir.


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## TheStudent (Oct 9, 2009)

This just seems to go round and round. So. . .

Here is my take on it and why this entire brouhaha is a waste of valuable time.

Stephen K. Hayes trained with Soke Hatsumi in the 1970's. He introduced the art to the US and western countries in the 1980's. At that time he was in the good graces of the Bujinkan and was a very active member and a key individual in the growth of the Bujinkan. In the 1990's he began to want to develop the style to fit the current methods of attack that people would be defending agains (lunge punch is laughable even in a bar fight with bubba Foxworthy, the super red-neck!).

In standard Japanese fashion, Hatsumi neither condoned nor disagreed with this idea, but simply said he should do what he felt was right (in Japanese culture that is similar to "you do what you gotta do, but don't let the door hit you on the way out.")

Hayes moved off in his own direction, and stopped paying the bujinkan dues and promoting what he taught as Bujinkan. Soke Hatsumi removed the name from the wall as a visible symbol that he has moved on and started his own thing. End of story.

I went round and round with this myself for over a year and here is what I finally decided: 
A) The Bujinkan Ryus are wonderful and very effective. (Most students are NOT experienced martial artists, so realized the next piece only refersto those who have no outside experience, I know there are exceptions) The current method of teaching is so full of "find what feels right for your body" that the effectiveness of the art is being compromised. People with currently effective and skilled abilities must water their techniques and skills down to fit into the class. Training with a partner who insists you throw a lunge punch and then only throws one at you reduces your ability to build effectiveness in a real-world altercation.

B)Hayes has tried to add current fighting styles to the responses of the original systems. He is a bit too full of himself and has toned down the harshness in return for allowing for legal repercussions (the thief sues the homeowner who shot him and wins, etc.), so open hands and takedowns are emphasized over the multiple fists he was originally taught. He seems enamored with the Godai, which WAS in the 1970's bujinkan, and has structured everything to match, when the original was merely a method of teaching types of responses, not a system of categorization. (watch the old tapes and listen to the interviews, it was there, just not nearly at the level Hayes wrote about it.) He also over-emphasized the "personal student" part, which is sort-of true, since the growing bujinkan forced new members to train with Hatsumi's students, with him overseeing them and only occaisionally working personally 1 on 1. But he wasn't and isn't the last personal student of Hatsumi. Current video tapes show Hatsumi training in his small dojo with 8 - 12 students as well as training in the big hall with 40 to 200 students.

So, in the end, here is what I decided to do => I am training in To-Shin Do while studying and practicing the Bujinkan curriculum as a supplement. I am a member of both and a proud of it. When I see a technique in To-Shin Do, I find the counterpart and practice both variations. After all, Soke Hatsumi always emphasises the variations possible of every technique is more important that the exact motions, so I take that as: Bujinkan is the source, and the To-Shin Do is just a variation. And, of course, I train with partners who will throw current/real attacks and traditional attacks alternatively, so I can learn to respond to any attack. My one rule is NEVER aim to miss. Go slowly at first, but aim at the real target and if I miss, I get hit (slowly and softly). Then, as skill and muscle memory is developed, go faster and trust each other to stop before damage.

I also believe that both Bujinkan and To-Shin Do can be competative, since all modern variations (judo, karate, BJJ, etc.) are competative. The difference is building skill enough to stop or shift to lesser vulnerable targets, which most modern arts do. But that's another topic


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## newtothe dark (Oct 12, 2009)

TheStudent said:


> This just seems to go round and round. So. . .
> 
> Here is my take on it and why this entire brouhaha is a waste of valuable time.
> 
> ...


 
Great response unfortunately its like religionin that one church will tell you that the other church is going to hell and is a cult. That is because of one very simple fact, if there is one dollar no one wants to share.


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## nitflegal (Oct 13, 2009)

Sigh, and the wheels, they keep a-turning.

Just two things; 

One; many of the best, most senior, and most experienced shidoshi in the US have publically and personally stated that Hayes is a wealth of information on all of the disciplines in the Bujinkan and was the person who taught them the art.  They as well as any of us may disagree with Hayes' decision to go the Toshindo route but to then take that as Hayes is some sort of fraudulent snake-oil salesman is simply foolish.  If you study the Bujinkan in the US, chances are somewhere in your instructor's lineage is Mr. Hayes.  Dislike his path all you want but I think we in the X-kans do him AND ourselves a disservice slagging him.  It may be illuminating that before he "broke" with the Booj he was regarded by the people worldwide as one of the best instructors in the art and heavily promoted by soke himself.  He didn't become a know-nothing fraud until politics intervened.  Were people just lying about his abilities for all those years before hand?

Second, I have no idea what prompted Mr. Hayes to form Toshindo as I've not studied it.  I do think it sad to see the friendships that were damaged and destroyed by this action amongst some others.  I hope it will be looked back upon as worth the pain but I have no idea if it actually will or not.

Matt

PS, for God's sake, if your sensei taught you the "lunge-punch" without conveying the fact that it's a training tool to perfect your body-mechanics while you train and not the common way you'd punch in a real fight once you've understood the taijutsu then he did you a disservice.  If he/she told you and it didn't register, I'd suggest paying better attention.


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## Archangel M (Oct 13, 2009)

nitflegal said:


> PS, for God's sake, if your sensei taught you the "lunge-punch" without conveying the fact that it's a training tool to perfect your body-mechanics while you train and not the common way you'd punch in a real fight once you've understood the taijutsu then he did you a disservice.  If he/she told you and it didn't register, I'd suggest paying better attention.



Not a Booj guy but I have to ask. What is the sense in THAT?

Why "perfect body mechanics" in response to an admittedly unrealistic attack? Seems counterproductive to me.


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## savagek (Oct 13, 2009)

Hello all, 

Maybe if Nitflegal had included Inashigata & Ken tai ichi jo and maybe the words push~pull~sink~rotate~ and breath and moving the hips forward and down this may have clarified his PS a bit more. 

Just my input. 

Be well and Gassho, 

Ken Savage 
Bujinkan Shidoshi
The Winchendon Martial Arts Center/ Bujinkan Savage Dojo 
Winchendon MA 
U.S.A
www.winmartialarts.com


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## TheStudent (Oct 13, 2009)

On the point of the lunge punch issue, I'm not sure if I was the one Nitflegal was saying it to, or anyone reading the thread. But, he might have a point.

If the point of a lunge punch is to give a highly visible target for the training partner to work off of, it is VERY useful for perfecting body mechanics. Honestly, some throws, breaks and other techniques are VERY hard to pull off on a normal modern punch. So, you need a very simplistic, basic punch to use when you are first figuring out how to coordinate your hands, feet, hips and all the rest of your joints so they end up accomplishing the technique you are learning. 

However, this punch is formally taught as the foundation of proper mechanics in punching. Bujinkan punches were developed in the era where combatants wore 70+ pounds of armor and you needed rock solid mechanics to move without losing your balance. Also, most punches and such are designed to knock the opponent down, not cause direct impact damage. Look at a bujinkan shuto, especially the ones in the sanshin no kata. The shutos are designed to push the opponent down where he becomes helpless. These same techniques CAN easily work in the modern, highly mobile world of modern clothing and techniques. BUT, they require modifications for the application to work. 

So, the way I see it is this: Learn the technique against an unresisting arm/foot/body. then practice it against any valid attack of the same variety (right lunge punch, right straight punch, right jab, etc. Any with the right foot and arm both in front). Then graduate to variations that work for reverse punches, etc. where the hand and opposite foot are in front.or any other potential body position of an attacker.

Remember, in the 1970's Hatsumi's students were breaking rocks with their punches. But when was the last time you heard about anyone doing that today? How many bujinkan students consistently use a makiwara or heavy bag? I'm not knocking the Bujinkan or Jinenkan or Gembukan. I just feel that if I am not able to practice with realistic attacks, I'm not going to get where I want to go.

By the way, if the lunge punch is just a learning tool for the actual attacks in the Bujinkan, but not the actual punch you would use in a real-world attack, what is being taught as the correct punch? All I have ever seen in current training/videos/demos/etc. is that punch. So if that is just a training tool, what is the correct punch? (no sarcasm intended. I am utterly serious.) I can't find anything anywhere that is formal or official bujinkan that includes non-lunge punches. Everytime I have worked with someone who has EXCLUSIVE bujinkan training with no previous MA training, they stop me and say I am punching wrong for Bujinkan if I use anything else (and that is IF they do any free form practice at all). Many do only the specific moves where the response is allowed to vary, but the attack MUST be the exact attack every time.

Again, I love the traditional ryus within the Bujinkan. But To-Shin Do is the closest I can find to a real world environment to train in. So, like I said before, I train in To-Shin Do and practice with Bujinkan.


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## pakyon (Dec 29, 2010)

HKTOSHINDO said: "and the group that gassed the subways in Japan".

Oh BTW... the senior members of that group were students of Hatsumi Sensei too- FWIW.


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## RRepster (Jun 12, 2011)

zeeberex said:


> i believe I heard it that he amicablly split with the Bujinkan and started his own organization.



From what I've gathered over the years since the early 80's when people like Hayes and Bussey and others traveled to Japan to study with Hatsumi sensei he was teaching them Togakure Ryu and wanted them to take what they learned back home to sort of spread the gospel. After that he started to formally bring everything together to form BBT.

The whole thing is primarily an evolved business decision. There really isn't any greater conspiracy to it all. What Hayes has done and to an extent Hatsumi as well is just made their own Ryu with themselves as the 1st generation GM. Because Hayes is American his method of doing it looks odd because it's formally copyrighted, that's just the modern American way of keeping something in the 'family.


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## Chris Parker (Jun 13, 2011)

Hmm, not really sure why this one has been resurrected, but as it has, some corrections....

Honestly, most of what you've put here is incorrect. Hatsumi was always teaching a variety of systems that he inherrited, but it was all under the Togakure Ryu name, despite almost none of it being Togakure Ryu itself. The name Budo Taijutsu came about in the mid-late 90's for the organisation.

In terms of Toshindo (and the Bujinkan) being essentially "business evolution", well, no. Toshindo is Hayes' modern application and expression of his years of training, and the Bujinkan is Hatsumi's organisation to teach the lessons he gained from the lines he teaches. Neither are "ryu" in any sense, both are organisations. Hayes' being American has obviously influenced the modern approach, but it has nothing to do with any form of "copyright" approach... remember that the traditional Ryu-ha (Koryu) are considered a copyright that is held by the current Soke, so copyrighting isn't odd or bizarre at all.

In very simple terms, Toshindo is not the Bujinkan, but has it's roots in it. Stephen Hayes was removed from the Bujinkan list of teachers/members a number of years ago now. The removal happened years after Toshindo was formed, and happened in no small way due to Toshindo being formed.


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## RRepster (Jun 13, 2011)

Chris Parker said:


> Hmm, not really sure why this one has been resurrected, but as it has, some corrections....
> 
> Honestly, most of what you've put here is incorrect. Hatsumi was always teaching a variety of systems that he inherrited, but it was all under the Togakure Ryu name, despite almost none of it being Togakure Ryu itself. The name Budo Taijutsu came about in the mid-late 90's for the organisation.
> 
> ...



Correct, that's what I was driving at.


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## bljohnson (Jan 9, 2012)

Read a few comments on how Bujinkan people always punch unrealistic. Not true, we do use lunge punches to learn a new technique but go to Japan and train and don't punch with realism and see how long it takes for a shihan to ask why.


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## Indagator (Jan 11, 2012)

bljohnson your comment immediately brings to mind the Shidoshi at my dojo - you know when people go to punch but they (for some reason) aim away from your face?
Yeah Shidoshi will say, every time, "Why are you punching over there - I'm here!".

He's not happy unless you are coming at him with full intent to punch him in the face (or whatever other area).

Tbh, I am somewhat like that too although for different reasons... I feel that I learn better and better absorb the core principles under a situation where if I do not move (or react or whatever) then I will cop a blow to the face. And on those times when I do get hit, it helps me learn to move!


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## shiro (Apr 2, 2013)

I myself am sick of hearing all the BS so lets just get to the point because no one ever answers this if you do not answer this please do not go into the round and round game if you do not know then you do not know.      What did Stephen K. Hayes do to upset Mr. Masaaki Hatsumi? not hear say, who on hear has heard from Mr. Hatsumi what Mr. Hayes did to upset him.  Facts are Mr. Hayes can still issue Bujinkan rank(chooses not too). He does teach Toshin do but still teaches the Bujinkan(classical) waza still. The people who did get Bujinkan rank did not get it from just studying Mr. Hayes TSD but also was studying the Bujinkan waza as well. I hear all the talk read all the post but no one ever says why. So lets end it and just say Mr. Hayes did this this year and it upset Mr. Hatsumi and this is the problem.


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## Chris Parker (Apr 3, 2013)

Hmm. Is there a reason you're wanting to open this particular can of worms again? For the record, Hayes distanced himself from Hatsumi, wasn't paying fees, and was using the name of the Kukishin Ryu (specifically) on ranking certificates, indicating that he was ranking his students in that art, which he had no authority to do. And no, Hayes cannot still issue Bujinkan rank, he's not part of the Bujinkan, and has no authority there. The same is true of my organisation (we split from the Bujinkan in 2001), the Jinenkan (1996), and the Genbukan (1984). When you leave the Bujinkan (willingly or not), you can't continue to rank in the Bujinkan... to say that Hayes can is to grossly and massively misunderstand things.


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## shiro (Apr 3, 2013)

Mr. Hayes did use Toshin Do Kasumi an Kukishinden Ryu Bojutsu on certs for people studying like say the Bojutsu kihon. But according to Mr. Ohashi Mr. Hayes still can issue rank in the Bujinkan to people studying the Bujinkan classical methods still from him( he chooses not too). But this has nothing to do with my question all these years and a lot of stuff being said but I have never heard this is what he did that upset Mr. Hatsumi and this is when it happen. I would like someone to say this is what he did and when and the info came from Mr. Hatsumi or atleast a Japanese Shihan and not third or fourth person out.


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 3, 2013)

shiro said:


> Mr. Hayes did use Toshin Do Kasumi an Kukishinden Ryu Bojutsu on certs for people studying like say the Bojutsu kihon. But according to Mr. Ohashi Mr. Hayes still can issue rank in the Bujinkan to people studying the Bujinkan classical methods still from him( he chooses not too). But this has nothing to do with my question all these years and a lot of stuff being said but I have never heard this is what he did that upset Mr. Hatsumi and this is when it happen. I would like someone to say this is what he did and when and the info came from Mr. Hatsumi or atleast a Japanese Shihan and not third or fourth person out.



What is your source for saying "according to Mr. Ohashi, Mr. Hayes can still issue rank in the Bujinkan..."? That doesn't match anything I've read or heard.


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## jks9199 (Apr 3, 2013)

shiro said:


> Mr. Hayes did use Toshin Do Kasumi an Kukishinden Ryu Bojutsu on certs for people studying like say the Bojutsu kihon. But according to Mr. Ohashi Mr. Hayes still can issue rank in the Bujinkan to people studying the Bujinkan classical methods still from him( he chooses not too). But this has nothing to do with my question all these years and a lot of stuff being said but I have never heard this is what he did that upset Mr. Hatsumi and this is when it happen. I would like someone to say this is what he did and when and the info came from Mr. Hatsumi or atleast a Japanese Shihan and not third or fourth person out.


If he's not a member of the Bujinkan, how can he issue rank in it?  If the directive has been rather clearly given that Bujinkan members should not train with Hayes or in his program -- how can his program issue rank in the Bujinkan?  I think you're mistaken or have misunderstood something.


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## shiro (Apr 3, 2013)

Mr. Ohashi told me that there is no ban on Toshindo people and they are welcome to train at the Hombu as far as he knows and Mr. Hayes can still give out Bujinkan rank to students who are still training in the classical stuff under Mr. Hayes as well(Bujinkan). But like I said I want someone who has heard it from Mr. Hatsumi or at least a Japanese shihan what Mr. Hayes did to upset Mr. Hatsumi and when. No 3rd or 4th person info


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## elder999 (Apr 3, 2013)

Don't have a dog in this hunt at all....the only facts I'm aware of are that Hatsumi sensei told a senior student to take Hayes name shingle (nafuda) taken down from the board (nafudakake)-in essence,saying-_without saying_-that, as far as the _Bujinkan_, Hayes doesn't exist. I don't know anything else-especially about Hayes' and Hatsumi's relationship, and I'll bet that very few others do.As for the rest, it's a _Japanese_ thing, man-no one will ever "know" for certain, any more than we know about the very famous and public split between Hatsumi and Tanemura....some translation is needed, though:





shiro said:


> Mr. Ohashi told me that there is no ban on Toshindo people and they are welcome to train at the Hombu as far as he knows


 _THe Hombu is overcrowded with foreign students and tourists  who don't know how to behave. Of course you're welcome there _:





shiro said:


> .and Mr. Hayes can still give out Bujinkan rank to students who are still training in the classical stuff under Mr. Hayes as well(Bujinkan).


_Who * cares* what Stephen Hayes does? He can do whatever he wants-it's no more legitimate than  a PhD. from Sears, and twice as useless...._ Hope this clears things up, because it's really more than you're going to get from most Bujinkan people, who are just as likely to ask, _who's this Shiro guy, and why is he entitled to the straight dope, anyway?_ :lfao:


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## Brian R. VanCise (Apr 3, 2013)

Bottom line those in the know are not going to give you an answer on this on a forum!


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## elder999 (Apr 3, 2013)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Bottom line those in the know are not going to give you an answer on this on a forum!


 Or email....or the phone....or in person....:lfao:....


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## shiro (Apr 3, 2013)

Alot of people spread things they know nothing about and continue to spread things that are false. Nothing that was said is either new or about what the subject at hand was either you know or do not. I mean really all the talking over the years when it gets right down to it this is the direct question is there anyone on here who can answer it.


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## elder999 (Apr 3, 2013)

shiro said:


> when it gets right down to it this is the direct question is there anyone on here who can answer it.


*No.*


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## shiro (Apr 3, 2013)

Ok you two do not know i get it so have a great day. Anyone else.


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## Tgace (Apr 3, 2013)

http://www.coloradospringsninjutsu....8/6_Toshindo_is_not_the_same_as_Bujinkan.html


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## Bob Hubbard (Apr 3, 2013)

This question come up. The answer is, no.

There are -2- people who have that answer. 1 is Hayes, the other Hatsumi.  1 will not answer, the other will give a very Japanese non-answer, which is your answer.

It really is a dead horse.  Hayes will be at several big martial arts events on the East Coast and is last I knew it still actively teaching. You can try to contact him directly. He's on Facebook, on my friends list in fact. So he's easy to get in touch with.

But to me, it's not important enough an issue to bother him about.


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## Chris Parker (Apr 4, 2013)

shiro said:


> Mr. Hayes did use Toshin Do Kasumi an Kukishinden Ryu Bojutsu on certs for people studying like say the Bojutsu kihon. But according to Mr. Ohashi Mr. Hayes still can issue rank in the Bujinkan to people studying the Bujinkan classical methods still from him( he chooses not too). But this has nothing to do with my question all these years and a lot of stuff being said but I have never heard this is what he did that upset Mr. Hatsumi and this is when it happen. I would like someone to say this is what he did and when and the info came from Mr. Hatsumi or atleast a Japanese Shihan and not third or fourth person out.



See post #7 on this thread. That is a statement from George Ohashi at the time regarding Hayes and his standing in the Bujinkan (ie he is no longer a recognized part of it, training in it, or teaching it). Hayes cannot issue rank in the Bujinkan, as he is not part of it. It really is that simple. Saying he can is like saying that I used to work for Coca Cola, and now work for Pepsi, and, as they're basically the same drink, I can keep saying I work for Coke, and use their name on my business cards... it's just not correct or true.

But really, what does it matter what the issue between them was about? Hayes is not part of the Bujinkan, and that's really the only part that can have any effect on anyone training in one organization or the other (if they wanted to cross-train, or swap between them).



shiro said:


> Mr. Ohashi told me that there is no ban on Toshindo people and they are welcome to train at the Hombu as far as he knows and Mr. Hayes can still give out Bujinkan rank to students who are still training in the classical stuff under Mr. Hayes as well(Bujinkan). But like I said I want someone who has heard it from Mr. Hatsumi or at least a Japanese shihan what Mr. Hayes did to upset Mr. Hatsumi and when. No 3rd or 4th person info



George Ohashi stepped down from being the "spokesperson" for the Bujinkan Hombu a year and a half ago (or more.... time flies, these days), so I wouldn't necessarily be using his name as an official statement. Next, of course Toshindo students are welcome... but that doesn't mean that the Toshindo student's training is really the same (to be frank, the Bujinkan does have a habit of letting members of other, particularly split-off organizations come and train, then try to buy them back to the Bujinkan with rank, promise of schools to run, promise of a connection to Hatsumi or a Shihan, and more...), nor is it saying that the Bujinkan members are allowed to train with Hayes in Toshindo. And really, teaching the "classical stuff" is not what is required to give someone "Bujinkan ranking".... after all, Bujinkan ranking isn't in the "classical material", it's in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, which is a modern art created out of the various systems Hatsumi holds and has been taught. It started to be created in the 70's, developed in the 80's, and came to a maturity (signified by the new name) in the mid-90's. It's a new, modern art. Teaching the "classical material" has nothing to do with Bujinkan ranking. The organization the instructor and student is in does.



shiro said:


> Alot of people spread things they know nothing about and continue to spread things that are false. Nothing that was said is either new or about what the subject at hand was either you know or do not. I mean really all the talking over the years when it gets right down to it this is the direct question is there anyone on here who can answer it.



Mate, to be blunt, you're the one spreading false stories here. In the end, it doesn't matter. Hayes is not part of the Bujinkan. End of story.


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## shiro (Apr 4, 2013)

Ok I am not getting pulled into this I stated the facts given by him. So you do not know the answer thank you for your time.


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## oaktree (Apr 4, 2013)

I as well have no dog in this fight, however if you really want to know ask Hayes or Hatsumi the matter is between them. Truthfully I find it distasteful to pry into a private affair but if you really need to know and you don't want second hand information that may be untruth, biased, or what not then ask the two people involved.


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## Chris Parker (Apr 4, 2013)

shiro said:


> Ok I am not getting pulled into this I stated the facts given by him. So you do not know the answer thank you for your time.



What facts stated by who? Ohashi? You don't seem to have stated any facts, just his take on things (as interpreted by yourself), without taking into account the Japanese way of saying things (which rarely overtly says "no", but implies it in many subtle ways). So your take doesn't match reality... okay. You want the "real story", but don't accept anyone lower than Hatsumi or the Japanese Shihan? Who, as said, will respond in a Japanese way without overtly stating anything, nor actually give you the story, even if they know it? And even though Hayes would give a rather different account, leaving it up to the person hearing to figure out what they think the actual truth is?

Seriously, you resurrected a dead thread for this?


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## shiro (Apr 4, 2013)

I really don't know why people who do not know can not help but post stuff that is a waste of time to everyone, if you do not know first hand why post anything? The point of this was people spread things that is 3rd or 4th person info at best I thought why not get to the heart of the matter but it seems no one on here has heard from either party or a Japanese Shihan themselves so anyone who has not please do not post anymore it is a waste of everyones time. Please just ignore this if you do not have real info and have a great day.


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## elder999 (Apr 4, 2013)

shiro said:


> I really don't know why people who do not know can not help but post stuff that is a waste of time to everyone, if you do not know first hand why post anything? The point of this was people spread things that is 3rd or 4th person info at best I thought why not get to the heart of the matter but it seems no one on here has heard from either party or a Japanese Shihan themselves so anyone who has not please do not post anymore it is a waste of everyones time. Please just ignore this if you do not have real info and have a great day.


 _Pot? Kettle?_ Irony, thy name is Shiro. :lfao:


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## elder999 (Apr 4, 2013)

shiro said:


> I really don't know why people who do not know can not help but post stuff that is a waste of time to everyone, if you do not know first hand why post anything? The point of this was people spread things that is 3rd or 4th person info at best I thought why not get to the heart of the matter but it seems no one on here has heard from either party or a Japanese Shihan themselves so anyone who has not please do not post anymore it is a waste of everyones time. Please just ignore this if you do not have real info and have a great day.


 _Pot? Kettle?_ Irony, thy name is Shiro. :lfao:


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## Tames D (Apr 4, 2013)

shiro said:


> I really don't know why people who do not know can not help but post stuff that is a waste of time to everyone, if you do not know first hand why post anything? The point of this was people spread things that is 3rd or 4th person info at best I thought why not get to the heart of the matter but it seems no one on here has heard from either party or a Japanese Shihan themselves so anyone who has not please do not post anymore it is a waste of everyones time. Please just ignore this if you do not have real info and have a great day.



I don't have the answer to your question, but I want to work on increasing my post count.


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## seasoned (Apr 4, 2013)

shiro said:


> I really don't know why people who do not know can not help but post stuff that is a waste of time to everyone, if you do not know first hand why post anything? The point of this was people spread things that is 3rd or 4th person info at best I thought why not get to the heart of the matter but it seems no one on here has heard from either party or a Japanese Shihan themselves so anyone who has not please do not post anymore it is a waste of everyones time. Please just ignore this if you do not have real info and have a great day.



You have been asking the same question for two days now and have been given some good advice. The advice has been to go to the source, because, trying to pull people here on MT into this game of who did what to who, is just not flying. My suggestion is to go and enjoy the site and stop this game you seem to be playing.


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## arnisador (Apr 4, 2013)

We should hire a ninja to sneak into Hatsumi's place and eavesdrop until he learns the truth.

I admit that I'm curious about this also, but the facts simply don't seem to be forthcoming.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Apr 4, 2013)

Your just wasting your time and ours.  Those in the know do know what happened and there are more than a few.  However, they certainly are not going to share it here and as Elder999 said by email, phone, etc.  Your not going to find out unless you are a trusted Bujinkan student with very good connections.  That is just the way it is!  Sorry!!!


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## shiro (Apr 4, 2013)

It was not a game if you ready alot of the post on here and others alot of people talk without knowing anything really and spread false claims my point was to say say what or who or do not post. It is very clear that my point is proven on here at least this is true. So i am done on here with this. 
Good day


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## jks9199 (Apr 4, 2013)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Your just wasting your time and ours.  Those in the know do know what happened and there are more than a few.  However, they certainly are not going to share it here and as Elder999 said by email, phone, etc.  Your not going to find out unless you are a trusted Bujinkan student with very good connections.  That is just the way it is!  Sorry!!!


It's also important to recognize that there can be some major cultural miscommunications across the Japanese and American cultures.  It's very possible that an action or exchange was meant one way, but perceived another.  I've been trying to dig up a well written article I'd posted on this at one point without luck.  It's very possible, it seems, that you can have an exchange that runs kind of like this:
A Westerner walks into a hotel which is booked solid, with no vacancies at all, and asks at the desk _"Do you have any rooms?" "Yes, we have no rooms."  "So, I'd like a room for the night."  "Certainly, we'll accommodate you.  We have no rooms."  _The exchange could go on and on -- because the Westerner keeps hearing the yesses -- but the place has no rooms.  The Japanese is expecting the Westerner to hear the other half of the statement...


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## Brian R. VanCise (Apr 4, 2013)

Absolutely there are cultural issues between socieities.  However, in this situation we need to remember that Mr. Hayes is married to a Japanese woman.  Bottom line this is old news, not important to anyones training and really now a non issue.


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## Chris Parker (Apr 5, 2013)

shiro said:


> It was not a game if you ready alot of the post on here and others alot of people talk without knowing anything really and spread false claims my point was to say say what or who or do not post. It is very clear that my point is proven on here at least this is true. So i am done on here with this.
> Good day



You don't control who posts. You don't have any say as to who can answer. You have refused to listen to what you've been told. You've made patently false statements and had them corrected, only to continue to make them.

If you're not going to be here anymore, fine. But you really should understand that you haven't really added anything other than wasted time (yours and ours), so forgive us if we don't fret about your not thinking any posts here are of any worth.


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