# Sifus: What Would YOUR Reaction Be?



## wingchun100 (Mar 17, 2014)

A new student came to my Sifu's school. He studied wing chun under another sifu for (supposedly) a long time. I know we don't judge wing chun based how well you know your stuff and not how much you know, but he had gotten as far as SLT, CK and the dummy form. But when we touched hands, he was incredibly sloppy. In and of itself that doesn't mean much; maybe he practiced the forms at home but (like me) was unable to afford going to class for a while, so the chi sao practice isn't there. But then again, I think Sifu had the same feeling that this guy's training wasn't up to par, judging by the amount of tips he gave the guy during his forms.

So what would you do? Advise the guy that he basically has to "start from scratch?" I mean, he already learned the forms from the other school so he can't un-learn them. But it is an interesting question: what to do if someone comes to your school after having had years of experience from a crappy teacher.

Or let's look at it this way: what if he had good skills, but came from a different lineage? Wouldn't he have habits engrained that are NOT like the ones we learn at our school? I have no basis of comparison because my school is literally the only wing chun game in town.


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## cwk (Mar 17, 2014)

If I thought that what he was doing was fundamentally wrong, I'd make him start again from scratch.


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## mook jong man (Mar 17, 2014)

cwk said:


> If I thought that what he was doing was fundamentally wrong, I'd make him start again from scratch.



Same here.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 17, 2014)

He may come to a your school for 2 reasons:

1. To build the foundation and learn general MA knowledge.
2. To learn some special skill that your school can offer that other schools can't.

He may come to your school for the 2nd reason. In that case, he may not want to learn the basic all over again. After all good basic or bad basic is relative and not absolute.


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## wingchun100 (Mar 17, 2014)

He came to our school because he moved to our area and is now nowhere near the original school.


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## geezer (Mar 17, 2014)

wingchun100 said:


> He came to our school because he moved to our area and is now nowhere near the original school.



Well, if he's coming to your school as a permanent student, you pretty much _have_ to start over and get the basics right. What other option is there? You can't have him doing the forms, stances and movements differently from the rest of the class. If what he already knows is of any value, it may be helpful to him as he progresses.


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## Kwan Sau (Mar 17, 2014)

Geezer nailed it. 
And as for kung fu wangs 2nd scenario. ...that wouldn't happen in my world. Loyalty and trust would need to be established first. Wing chun isn't a "a la carte" where folks come in off off the street and say "can I learn the gerk jong or pole form etc"



geezer said:


> Well, if he's coming to your school as a permanent student, you pretty much _have_ to start over and get the basics right. What other option is there? You can't have him doing the forms, stances and movements differently from the rest of the class. If what he already knows is of any value, it may be helpful to him as he progresses.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 17, 2014)

Kwan Sau said:


> Geezer nailed it.
> And as for kung fu wangs 2nd scenario. ...that wouldn't happen in my world. Loyalty and trust would need to be established first. Wing chun isn't a "a la carte" where folks come in off off the street and say "can I learn the gerk jong or pole form etc"


In the ancient time, the student would visit the teacher for 3 years. The teacher then investigated into that student for 3 years. The teaching then started. That was in theory. In reality, MA teacher needs to feed his family too.

It's very common in the longfist system. Sometime a guy from another style come to the longfist school and just want to learn the "dagger" skill and he may make it very clear that he didn't want to learn Dao, Jian, staff, spear, or open hand skill.

I even had one student who wanted to have private lesson for 8 months. In that 8 months, he wanted to meet with me one on one, put gloves on, and play full contact sparring for 2 hours. He made it very clear that he didn't want to learn stances, solo forms, partner drills. He didn't even want to learn how to stretch.

If you have lived long enough, anything is possible.


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## geezer (Mar 17, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you have lived long enough, anything is possible.



True enough. Every situation is different.


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## Fritz (Mar 18, 2014)

Hmm, here is how I have dealt with experiences like that before. If a student can demonstrate rank in a similar art by a teacher I feel compelled to honor that out of respect to that teacher and the art itself. That student can enter training at X rank, but I then explain to them that the way we transmit the teachings and forms might be a bit different so the next few weeks will be spent seeing where they fit in the school in terms of our own ranking structure. If they are deficient in it, then we have lots to work on, and it is made known that to progress any further, they need to demonstrate what is needed in our school. 

Long and the short, honor the rank, regardless of personal thoughts (if any) of the teacher and the students current ability, but if they want to advance with our group moving forward they need to show it based on our standards. 

You come into our group as a 1[SUP]st[/SUP] dan, but your skills and knowledge compared to our group is really a 5[SUP]th[/SUP] kyu, then you aren&#8217;t getting a second dan till you can demo all the stuff leading up to it. Not as mean as it sounds I hope, as we will work and get the student up there. 

A humble student will buckle down and correct their skills, bringing them in line.

An arrogant student will leave ASAP as you honor their rank but don&#8217;t recognize their genius.


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## Carol (Mar 18, 2014)

Fritz said:


> You come into our group as a 1[SUP]st[/SUP] dan, but your skills and knowledge compared to our group is really a 5[SUP]th[/SUP] kyu, then you aren&#8217;t getting a second dan till you can demo all the stuff leading up to it. Not as mean as it sounds I hope, as we will work and get the student up there.



I'm not a WC practitioner (or an instructor) but I have bounced around a few MA schools.  A few potential instructors have said exactly that to me in the past....and I am nowhere near a black belt.  They have said that I would keep and wear my rank, because I earned it, and would then progress to the next level when I was ready.   I didn't end up training with them, and I would have been happy to start over at white....but to be honest, it was a bit of a relief to hear that the time I spent training was worth something, even if a Nth Kyu in my new school was not the same as an Nth Kyu in my previous school.


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## mook jong man (Mar 19, 2014)

People usually like to talk themselves up a bit.
But the hands don't lie.
You touch hands with them in chi sau and you will know exactly what level they are at.


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## Carol (Mar 19, 2014)

Are there typically belt/sash ranks in Wing Chun?  Or is it more instructor/student?


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## wingchun100 (Mar 19, 2014)

Carol said:


> Are there typically belt/sash ranks in Wing Chun?  Or is it more instructor/student?



It depends on the school. I believe the guy Robert Downey Jr. studies under uses sashes. However, our school does not. We don't have uniforms or even school T-shirts anymore LOL. When you walk in, you have no idea who the senior students are unless you ask. Even then, that doesn't mean much to most of the students there. (Well, provided you don't have a bad ego...but an overwhelming amount of students in our school are very humble, down to earth folks.) I use myself as an example: I started attending the school in 1995 so technically I am a "senior student," but I am far from the best one there.


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## Takai (Mar 19, 2014)

wingchun100 said:


> It depends on the school. I believe the guy Robert Downey Jr. studies under uses sashes.



Correct. He is training in William Cheung's lineage.


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## Carol (Mar 19, 2014)

One of my previous FMA schools also taught Wing Chun.  Without sash ranks, which is traditional in the FMAs as well.  I never trained in it, but the people who did and could make the two flow together....damn. :asian:

Anyway, sliding off topic...


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## wingchun100 (Mar 20, 2014)

Carol said:


> One of my previous FMA schools also taught Wing Chun.  Without sash ranks, which is traditional in the FMAs as well.  I never trained in it, but the people who did and could make the two flow together....damn. :asian:
> 
> Anyway, sliding off topic...



Geez, you are going to have to forgive me for being behind on my abbreviations, but...FMA?

I hate showing my ignorance, but it's better than pretending I know what I'm talking about. LOL


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## mook jong man (Mar 20, 2014)

wingchun100 said:


> Geez, you are going to have to forgive me for being behind on my abbreviations, but...FMA?
> 
> I hate showing my ignorance, but it's better than pretending I know what I'm talking about. LOL



Fillipino martial arts.

In Australian it would be PMA , Phillipino martial arts.

_You say tomatoe we say tomato  lets call the whole thing off._


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## wingchun100 (Mar 20, 2014)

mook jong man said:


> Fillipino martial arts.
> 
> In Australian it would be PMA , Phillipino martial arts.
> 
> _You say tomatoe we say tomato  lets call the whole thing off._



You know, I should have realized that because I saw CMA somewhere, and somehow I made the connection that it meant Chinese martial arts. Thanks though.


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## Carol (Mar 20, 2014)

No worries, don't ever be afraid to ask.  That's what we're all here for


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## wingchun100 (Mar 20, 2014)

Carol said:


> No worries, don't ever be afraid to ask.  That's what we're all here for



Well, MOST of us. You know there are those on these boards who like to mock instead of pass on knowledge. "Ha, you didn't know that?" Some days, it makes me too cautious to even bother posting. At least I know who my friends are.


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## mook jong man (Mar 20, 2014)

wingchun100 said:


> Well, MOST of us. You know there are those on these boards who like to mock instead of pass on knowledge. "Ha, you didn't know that?" Some days, it makes me too cautious to even bother posting. At least I know who my friends are.



You mean like this.


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## wingchun100 (Mar 20, 2014)

mook jong man said:


> You mean like this.



No, the offenders know who they are.

I think I just came up with a name for a new superhero team: the Offenders. You never know when creative inspiration may strike!


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 20, 2014)

wingchun100 said:


> No, the offenders know who they are.
> 
> I think I just came up with a name for a new superhero team: the Offenders. You never know when creative inspiration may strike!


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## Takai (Mar 20, 2014)

mook jong man said:


> _You say tomatoe we say tomato  lets call the whole thing off._



Can't we just make some salsa and call it good?


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## Carol (Mar 21, 2014)

Takai said:


> Can't we just make some salsa and call it good?



*starts chopping vegetables*


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## mograph (Mar 22, 2014)

Takai said:


> Can't we just make some salsa and call it good?


*puts on the Celia Cruz*


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