# Superpowers, The Force, ect.



## PhotonGuy (Oct 11, 2013)

Some of the stories I've heard about Chi makes it sound like, if I developed my Chi enough I could be Superman or Luke Skywalker. That might sound silly not to mention an exaggeration, but I've heard of people performing tremendous feats of strength, speed, ect. using Chi. I also heard it can be a fountain of youth, the way Yoda was able to bounce around like a muppet on crack when he was over 800 years old which even for his species is quite old.


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## lklawson (Nov 1, 2013)

PhotonGuy said:


> Some of the stories I've heard about Chi makes it sound like, if I developed my Chi enough I could be Superman or Luke Skywalker. That might sound silly not to mention an exaggeration, but I've heard of people performing tremendous feats of strength, speed, ect. using Chi. I also heard it can be a fountain of youth, the way Yoda was able to bounce around like a muppet on crack when he was over 800 years old which even for his species is quite old.


You don't really need Chi to do this stuff.  The body can do most of it anyway.

http://www.cracked.com/article/114_5-superpowers-you-didnt-know-your-body-was-hiding-from-you/
http://www.cracked.com/article_19954_5-ways-to-trick-your-body-into-being-more-awesome.html
http://www.cracked.com/article_19075_5-bizarre-brain-hacks-that-make-you-better-at-sports.html


And your brain is a lot more superpowered than most people think:
http://www.cracked.com/article_20166_5-brain-hacks-that-give-you-mind-blowing-powers.html
http://www.cracked.com/article/127_5-ways-to-hack-your-brain-into-awesomeness/


Ever notice how much Tea the Chi Masters drink?
http://www.cracked.com/blog/7-scientific-ways-coffee-gives-you-super-powers/


And, good heavens, how awesome were we when we were babies?!?
http://www.cracked.com/article_18538_5-superpowers-we-all-had-as-babies-according-to-science.html

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Blaze Dragon (Dec 30, 2013)

PhotonGuy said:


> Some of the stories I've heard about Chi makes it sound like, if I developed my Chi enough I could be Superman or Luke Skywalker. That might sound silly not to mention an exaggeration, but I've heard of people performing tremendous feats of strength, speed, ect. using Chi. I also heard it can be a fountain of youth, the way Yoda was able to bounce around like a muppet on crack when he was over 800 years old which even for his species is quite old.



That is a common theory. though I disagree with Iklawson. 


lklawson said:


> You don't really need Chi to do this stuff.  The body can do most of it anyway.



As those who believe in Qi, feel you have Qi and that's what doing it. However I suppose it was meant you don't need to do cultivations.

I personally believe in the health benefits of cultivations and meditation. As far as super human feats...well I'm not sure. I believe if you put your mind, your will, and dedicate training time you can get there. Or at least something close. There is a really cool video called martial arts quest or something, that goes to Wudang and one of the masters there is able to run across his students backs, and run up a wall in a very unusual way.


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## PhotonGuy (Sep 3, 2014)

You make some really good points BlazeLeeDragon. Keep making your good posts and don't be discouraged by some of the bullies on this board who hide behind computer screens while insulting people.


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## Instructor (Sep 3, 2014)

I find by and large that physics will carry you further in any given physical activity than mysticism.


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 3, 2014)

What's claimed is





But what you really get is





Physics is real.


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## Hong Kong Pooey (Sep 5, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> What's claimed is
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's easy to be cynical, but I don't speak Chinese (or whatever language) so what is he actually claiming?

Maybe he's saying "I shout and move my arms a bit then my mate pulls the bricks over with a bit of fishing line"


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## Blaze Dragon (Sep 15, 2014)

So those are probably the worse two examples you can find...not saying they are not good examples. I'm saying they are extreme examples of failure...the first video, I do not know anyone who claims those skills. No martial artist, or practitioner of the internal arts. I know guys like that are out there, but I've yet to meet one. The second video is very sad to me, the guy is so convinced with how his students act, that he believes he could use that stuff in a fight...

So let me set some things straight first...A) I've only been practicing the internal arts for 5 years and am very much a beginner even though I hold a first degree black sash. and B) I also happen to be a practitioner and believer in real energy work.

However I would never be one to claim to use nothing but energy and mind in a fight nor push over stones. I really don't care to go into great detail about magic and mysticism here as it really holds no value to the conversation nor is it the topic at hand. However for those interested, please let me know...

As to Qi, the way I was taught by my sifu, Qi does not leave the body. Now a lot of people argue this, I also do spiritual healing and others claim to use qi to heal by projecting it. This does sit with my martial arts training. I think it's a case of bad translations and assumptions. The Chinese philosophies and practices of energy work when applied to martial arts is a bit much to go into a lecture. However I'll share some of the elementary level concepts when it comes to martial arts and internal cultivations. It's actually argued that westerns will never fully understand as we have to different of a culture.

A person is composed of 3 energies and 7 souls (taoist practice) the 3 energies are relevant here. Jing, Qi and Shen. Jing is your body it's self, your physical substance, qi is your internal energy your intent, it's what moves your body. Shen is your spirit this is what leaves and projects from your body. I once heard it described as a candle, the wick and wax is your Jing, the flame is Qi and the light and heat are Shen. As internal practitioners, we cultivate our jing and qi to produce shen. though there are some (not my sifu) who utilize Shen for healing and the like, it's on an ethric and ethereal level. This affects the physical, but only by reflecting to the physical just like a physical injury will reflect on us spiritually and mentally. However, I like many separate physical from spiritual. You handle physical with physical and spiritual with spiritual. Even though they influence and help each other, consider the issue at hand. Qi for example, is utilized for the movements in taijiquan. It's the intent and where our raw power comes from. it's the key ingredient in fajin, explosive power. As my sifu says "with out qi there is no taiji"

sinking and ground with our minds, directs the qi and makes us more stable. (in magic practice separate from martial arts we have a saying "all energy follows thought"). We put our intent there and it is so. The idea during pushing hands and even combat is to uproot the opponent and break his grounding. However I have seen or heard of anyone successfully doing this with out physical contact. I will say from my own personal experience that putting your intent your qi behind it and doing brother breathing and the cultivation and qigong exercises have made me MUCH MUCH better and the techniques are more effective.

I respect anyone's opinion to disagree, and I dont' speak for all internal CMA guys. At the same time please don't lump us all in with these videos here. Heck I know I'm a bit out there myself, and know others dont' want to be lumped with me or my crazy ideas. However it's my path and to each their own.


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## Blaze Dragon (Sep 15, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> You make some really good points BlazeLeeDragon. Keep making your good posts and don't be discouraged by some of the bullies on this board who hide behind computer screens while insulting people.




Thank you, I'll keep that in mind.


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## Socialwealth (Sep 24, 2014)

*Yes chi exists. * 

I experience chi as physical evidence.  Sometimes my chi feeling is raw and incredibly powerful, sometimes subtle and refined.  Wish I could do more with my chi awareness and whip out some magic manifestations for you, but that's not where I am.

*Yes smarts exists. * 

I experience smarts as physical evidence.  Sometimes my smarts feeling is raw and incredibly powerful, sometimes subtle and refined.  Wish I could do more with my smarts and buy you your own private dojo, but that's not where I am.

People try to claim they got smarts by showing their big bank accounts, but they sure don't seem to reveal much when you ask them to demonstrate exactly how they used their smarts to make money in real time.  And even when they try to demonstrate they never actually make a million dollars in front of you while you're watching them show you how.  At best they just offer staged, common sense suggestions and an obvious bunch of generalized drivel about how they figured it out by doing such and such to make their millions. 

Sometimes a few folks will even take the time to show you exactly how they did it all, but then all you see is just some boring as hell day to day process.  It doesn't look like it adds up to much at all. It makes much better sense to argue that smarts don't really exist because not everybody can just go out and do exactly what the wealthy folks tell us to do to make a million dollars and become billionaires like them.  

I could easily come to doubt that financial success is really due to any smarts at all.  Smarts is just a sham cover for  hidden help behind the scenes (thanks Daddy for my silver spoon) or otherwise lucky sperm club circumstances and relationships that nobody wants to give honest credit to for their success.  Or not.

The path of Mastery sure is a real bee-yatch, ain't it.

_Better to have never begun..._


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## fangjian (Feb 5, 2015)

Chi is a real thing, Yes. But it's not a supernatural fluidic "energy"     that 'flows' through the body and can be projected at things and stuff. 

It seems (highly likely) to be the re training, strengthening, stretching, winding,...of the fascial network of the human body. Now, you can get that 'tingling' feeling by just relaxing and focusing on the palms of your hands ( I E  holding the ball and all that ). Not sure what causes that,    blood flow and awareness?

However, you can also get a tingling feeling when you are training your fascia.  I first noticed it in my first lesson in BaguaZhang. MY arms were out in that basic stance you associate with BaguaZhang. The teacher mad us do it for many minutes. Hold the position. Extend your fingers more. More.       ... .     MORE!       It was brutal. My hands were nearly going numb. Tingling.  Pain in my arms.  At the time I thought I was doing something wrong. The teacher barely spoke any English so possibly couldn't explain. I didn't know that THAT was what you're supposed to be looking for.   

The Goods are hidden in plain sight.


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## Cirdan (Feb 5, 2015)

I hear you need a high midi-chlorian count first......


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## Transk53 (Feb 6, 2015)

Cirdan said:


> I hear you need a high midi-chlorian count first......



Yeah, but I hear that the higher the concentration, the lesser the life span. The balance of the force and all that. Mind you, there is "Force Drain"


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## Cirdan (Feb 6, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Yeah, but I hear that the higher the concentration, the lesser the life span. The balance of the force and all that. Mind you, there is "Force Drain"



I think rapid aging is more caused by over-use of the force like dark practicioners are known to, rather than just a natural high concentration. Hence the wisdom of conserving one`s energy.


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## Transk53 (Feb 6, 2015)

Cirdan said:


> I think rapid aging is more caused by over-use of the force like dark practicioners are known to, rather than just a natural high concentration. Hence the wisdom of conserving one`s energy.



Maybe. The Darksiders tend to feed off the force. All though allegedly Palpatine found a way to enhance himself without creating a wound in the force. At least I think was in a novel, I know the technique has been explored in the KOTOR series. Palpatine was as old as Yoda in some circles.


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## Cirdan (Feb 6, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Maybe. The Darksiders tend to feed off the force. All though allegedly Palpatine found a way to enhance himself without creating a wound in the force. At least I think was in a novel, I know the technique has been explored in the KOTOR series. Palpatine was as old as Yoda in some circles.



I haven`t kept up with the expanded SW universe for years, only read the novels by Thimoty Zahn lately.
About Palpatine he uses clones and dark side spirit transfer to resurrect himself in the Dark Empire story, because "flesh does not easily support this great power" and his body wears out rapidly. However Mara Jade (Luke`s wife in the EU and former Emperor`s Hand) says in a later story she thinks the reborn Emperor was not really him so who knows.









Skywalker vs Palpatine


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## Mephisto (Feb 6, 2015)

Chi powers? No, not real in any superhuman sense. The idea of Chi as a muscular coordination concept where minimal energy is used to maximum effect is an idea I can buy. I've seen a lot of parlour tricks presented as evidence for existence of the superhuman ability of chi, I'm not convinced. 

As far as exercises specific to developing chi? I'm sure there are many health benefits but as for developing fighting skill I don't know if I'm convinced it makes a better fighter. It seems like a waste of time if your only goal is to become a good fighter. It may develop core strength but so does gymnastics and without all the esoteric nonsense that sometimes comes with internal training. It has its place and certainly has benefits but I don't think its superior to any "hard" method. 

Can anyone provide any evidence for the superiority of chi/internal training?


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## Transk53 (Feb 6, 2015)

Cirdan said:


> I haven`t kept up with the expanded SW universe for years, only read the novels by Thimoty Zahn lately.
> About Palpatine he uses clones and dark side spirit transfer to resurrect himself in the Dark Empire story, because "flesh does not easily support this great power" and his body wears out rapidly. However Mara Jade (Luke`s wife in the EU and former Emperor`s Hand) says in a later story she thinks the reborn Emperor was not really him so who knows.
> 
> 
> ...



Just read one Luke Skywalker novel. The where a star forge type machine I guess, scoffed on asteroids and spat out Tie Fighters. The fan fiction stuff makes it even more murky for the casual fan like me.


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## K-man (Feb 6, 2015)

I have no doubt Ki/Chi exists. Hard Ki is present in every fight you see, tournament or street. Soft Ki is a different matter. It is the soft Ki that people dispute and discount. I have now been studying soft Ki for over eight years and teach it in my karate classes. 

The interesting part happens when new guys come to my Krav classes. We don't talk about Ki there but it is the perfect place to practise its application. Many of those guys have MA backgrounds, are young and full of testosterone. They can't understand what is happening but they all want to be able to perform the techniques effortlessly.

Ki is not magical, it's just difficult to define, but what annoys me considerably is when people would genuinely like to discuss Ki/Chi and others just want to rubbish it. Certainly everyone that has experienced what they call Ki would attest to it, but that doesn't mean that everyone's experience is the same. Ai*ki*do without Ki is a very poor cousin of Aikido that teaches Ki. 

Just my 2c.


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## Transk53 (Feb 6, 2015)

K-man said:


> I have no doubt Ki/Chi exists. Hard Ki is present in every fight you see, tournament or street. Soft Ki is a different matter. It is the soft Ki that people dispute and discount. I have now been studying soft Ki for over eight years and teach it in my karate classes.
> 
> The interesting part happens when new guys come to my Krav classes. We don't talk about Ki there but it is the perfect place to practise its application. Many of those guys have MA backgrounds, are young and full of testosterone. They can't understand what is happening but they all want to be able to perform the techniques effortlessly.
> 
> ...



Are you talking about instinct coupled with training. Just curious that you mentioned street. Then again more than likely out of my depth here.


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## K-man (Feb 6, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Are you talking about instinct coupled with training. Just curious that you mentioned street. Then again more than likely out of my depth here.


No. All my training and teaching is based on instinct. That coupled with the training gives you fluidity in your movement and the ability to move seamlessly between techniques. The more you train this way the softer you become as you can't move quickly if your body is tense. Soft Ki takes the training to another level. 

In a street fight what you see is hard Ki. It manifests in aggression, power and strength. Most street fights you see are guys clashing violently with each other. Almost invariably, one succumbs to the more aggressive or stronger person. At that time I would suggest the loser has lost his Ki and hence his ability, or will, to continue. You can define Ki as you like .. mind, spirit, will, intent, whatever. When the mind and body are together we are strong. Take away the will to resist and you fall in a heap.


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## Transk53 (Feb 6, 2015)

K-man said:


> No. All my training and teaching is based on instinct. That coupled with the training gives you fluidity in your movement and the ability to move seamlessly between techniques. The more you train this way the softer you become as you can't move quickly if your body is tense. Soft Ki takes the training to another level.
> 
> In a street fight what you see is hard Ki. It manifests in aggression, power and strength. Most street fights you see are guys clashing violently with each other. Almost invariably, one succumbs to the more aggressive or stronger person. At that time I would suggest the loser has lost his Ki and hence his ability, or will, to continue. You can define Ki as you like .. mind, spirit, will, intent, whatever. When the mind and body are together we are strong. Take away the will to resist and you fall in a heap.



Plus 1. Now that is wisdom that I could subscribe to. Very true when defined like that. Perhaps I should stop being simplistic with the higher aspects, or natural as it were!


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 6, 2015)

My superpowers are derived from filtering out thoughts that are not task oriented. This can be hard to do when your opponent is doing everything they can to make you think about how much something hurt, a moment ago, and how much something will hurt, in the future. It takes a whole gambit of fitness-ess to do this, but we are all at one level or another with the over-all, of: physical; mental; perceptual; spiritual; and last but not least emotional. So, in conclusion, we are all human, which means our minds all operate at the exact same speed; however, some minds are less cluttered than others.


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## Buka (Feb 6, 2015)

I think the old saying goes - Chi Whiz, wha happened?


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## Transk53 (Feb 7, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> My superpowers are derived from filtering out thoughts that are not task oriented. This can be hard to do when your opponent is doing everything they can to make you think about how much something hurt, a moment ago, and how much something will hurt, in the future. It takes a whole gambit of fitness-ess to do this, but we are all at one level or another with the over-all, of: physical; mental; perceptual; spiritual; and last but not least emotional. *So, in conclusion, we are all human, which means our minds all operate at the exact same speed; however, some minds are less cluttered than others.*



Agree on a natural sense in terms of the biology of the human brain. However you are discounting neurological disorders. Again yes that would echo the latter above, but some minds are cluttered through whatever circumstance. No disrespect TOD, but that is a little bit too general


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## Transk53 (Feb 7, 2015)

Buka said:


> I think the old saying goes - Chi Whiz, wha happened?



_CHEN XIANG DOES 0 TO 60 MPH IN LESS THAN THREE SECONDS. WELL, AT LEAST HIS ARM DOES.

Chi Whiz - 2008 SUMMER - Stanford Medicine Magazine - Stanford University School of Medicine_


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 7, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Agree on a natural sense in terms of the biology of the human brain. However you are discounting neurological disorders. Again yes that would echo the latter above, but some minds are cluttered through whatever circumstance. No disrespect TOD, but that is a little bit too general


Its a start. And yes, some of us have biological disorders, but we also have cultural disorders within our own circles, or we are blind and can't see it coming, in the perceptual sense. While there may be fitness-ess that we can't do anything about, but again it is still a filter or a challenge,, or what have you. It doesn't change our desire to achieve tasks in the most efficient manner.


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## Transk53 (Feb 7, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Its a start. And yes, some of us have biological disorders, but we also have cultural disorders within our own circles, or we are blind and can't see it coming, in the perceptual sense. While there may be fitness-ess that we can't do anything about, but again it is still a filter or a challenge,, or what have you. It doesn't change our desire to achieve tasks in the most efficient manner.



True. As a race we can invisage and accomplish wonderful things. Of course the polar opposite is also true. Efficient killing machines painting a masterpiece.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 7, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> True. As a race we can invisage and accomplish wonderful things. Of course the polar opposite is also true. Efficient killing machines painting a masterpiece.


It is a cross I must bare.


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## Tez3 (Feb 7, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> It is a cross I must bare.




Not sure people will want to see you bare anything really.........


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 7, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Not sure people will want to see you bare anything really.........


Too bad, it is a bonus.


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## Transk53 (Feb 7, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Too bad, it is a bonus.



Yeah keep that Gladius in the scabbard lol


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## Tez3 (Feb 7, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Too bad, it is a bonus.




Really? Mmm. post up a photo of you baring all and we'll mark you out of ten......


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## Transk53 (Feb 7, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Really? Mmm. post up a photo of you baring all and we'll mark you out of ten......



Really, bloody well hope it is pixelated


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## jezr74 (Feb 7, 2015)

K-man said:


> No. All my training and teaching is based on instinct. That coupled with the training gives you fluidity in your movement and the ability to move seamlessly between techniques. The more you train this way the softer you become as you can't move quickly if your body is tense. Soft Ki takes the training to another level.
> 
> In a street fight what you see is hard Ki. It manifests in aggression, power and strength. Most street fights you see are guys clashing violently with each other. Almost invariably, one succumbs to the more aggressive or stronger person. At that time I would suggest the loser has lost his Ki and hence his ability, or will, to continue. You can define Ki as you like .. mind, spirit, will, intent, whatever. When the mind and body are together we are strong. Take away the will to resist and you fall in a heap.



I initially struggled with Ki. But since learning more about it, receiving and using. I'm a convert, I just try not to get strung up on the terminology used or the BS side some use to try and exploit, and stick to the meaning behind the scenes like you have mentioned and how to use it.

I had written it off until I was shown the same way you were taught.


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## K-man (Feb 7, 2015)

jezr74 said:


> I initially struggled with Ki. But since learning more about it, receiving and using. I'm a convert, I just try not to get strung up on the terminology used or the BS side some use to try and exploit, and stick to the meaning behind the scenes like you have mentioned and how to use it.
> 
> I had written it off until I was shown the same way you were taught.


Until you experience what you and I are fortunate to have experienced, you may not believe in Ki. Once experienced you have the choice ... ignore it or study it.


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## Shai Hulud (Feb 18, 2015)

Do not underestimate the power added by mental visualization! Those aren't just used for attempting seemingly superhuman feats of strength or Telekenesis(sp?). It's used for other things like stretching and bodyweight work too! 

I'm a deeply fascinated skeptic of Qi theory and Qi Gong, and while at times I feel inclined to dismiss it all as breathing and somatic exercises for oxygenation and muscle tension, I can't deny that it does have meditative benefits. I've experimented with some of the material offered by Lam Kam Chuen and Dr. Yang Jwing Ming, and while I eventually discontinued my practice of the 8-Pieces Brocade after a few weeks, I was better for it.


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## jezr74 (Feb 18, 2015)

Seems to be a lot of different interpretations. I can only compare Ki in a western term to say, "being in the zone", sometimes when I was younger and in to athletics, I'd get myself into a head space and performed without error, I could read everything so well and sweated confidence. I ran faster, conserved energy and intimidated other competitors just by presence. Not all the time, and sometimes others did it as well.

I don't know what the English translation of Ki actually is or if there is a translation to be honest.


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## Transk53 (Feb 19, 2015)

jezr74 said:


> I don't know what the English translation of Ki actually is or if there is a translation to be honest.



Hell I have not got a clue whatever the translation, I just know my zone and when to alter my perception.


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## Transk53 (Feb 19, 2015)

Shai Hulud said:


> Do not underestimate the power added by mental visualization! Those aren't just used for attempting seemingly superhuman feats of strength or Telekenesis(sp?). It's used for other things like stretching and bodyweight work too!
> 
> I'm a deeply fascinated skeptic of Qi theory and Qi Gong, and while at times I feel inclined to dismiss it all as breathing and somatic exercises for oxygenation and muscle tension, I can't deny that it does have meditative benefits. I've experimented with some of the material offered by Lam Kam Chuen and Dr. Yang Jwing Ming, and while I eventually discontinued my practice of the 8-Pieces Brocade after a few weeks, I was better for it.



A fascinated sceptic, now that is intriguing!


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## mograph (Feb 22, 2015)

jezr74 said:


> Seems to be a lot of different interpretations. I can only compare Ki in a western term to say, "being in the zone", sometimes when I was younger and in to athletics, I'd get myself into a head space and performed without error, I could read everything so well and sweated confidence.


You might want to read _Flow_ by Csikszentmihalyi.

(pronounced "cheek-sent-me-high")


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## K-man (Feb 23, 2015)

jezr74 said:


> Seems to be a lot of different interpretations. I can only compare Ki in a western term to say, "being in the zone", sometimes when I was younger and in to athletics, I'd get myself into a head space and performed without error, I could read everything so well and sweated confidence. I ran faster, conserved energy and intimidated other competitors just by presence. Not all the time, and sometimes others did it as well.


I think this is a different concept. Being 'in the zone' is probably more the state where all distractions are eliminated and the focus is squarely on the task at hand. What that generally means is the total coordination of mind and body. 

I practised visualisation many years ago as a gymnast. That meant that when I was competing I could just let go of everything and perform to the best of my ability. There is a similarity here with Aikido. The secret is to be able to perform without thinking, but there is also a major difference. Our application of Ki involves the separation of mind and body and that is achieved through total relaxation.

If you want to understand more of Ki you might like to chase up Stanley Pranin's interviews with Koichi Tohei. I have just reread them and there is one fascinating comment. Tohei says he didn't join Ueshiba to learn Aikido. He just wanted to learn how Ueshiba was generating the power in his techniques, the Ki. I didn't join Mal to learn Aikido either. I just wanted to learn how to generate that power without effort in my karate. Of course Tohei went on to form the Ki Society where in fact he didn't teach Aikido at all, just the Ki.



mograph said:


> You might want to read _Flow_ by Csikszentmihalyi.
> 
> (pronounced "cheek-sent-me-high")


As I said, different concept but interesting to read.


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## Transk53 (Feb 23, 2015)

K-man said:


> I think this is a different concept. Being 'in the zone' is probably more the state where all distractions are eliminated and the focus is squarely on the task at hand. What that generally means is the total coordination of mind and body.
> 
> I practised visualisation many years ago as a gymnast. That meant that when I was competing I could just let go of everything and perform to the best of my ability. There is a similarity here with Aikido. The secret is to be able to perform without thinking, but there is also a major difference. Our application of Ki involves the separation of mind and body and that is achieved through total relaxation.
> 
> ...



Is it all concept?


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## K-man (Feb 23, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Is it all concept?


I believe so. No amount of putting yourself 'in the zone' will help if you aren't at your peak of fitness and you haven't prepared yourself for the competition. It may make you feel that you are doing well but the results may show otherwise. Regardless of being 'in the zone', you still are producing your maximum physical effort.

Adding Ki to your martial art training, at least Ki as I have experienced it, enables you to perform your techniques without physical effort. That is referred to in Stanley Pranin's interview with Koichi Tohai. It is a matter of relaxation, something you see in Tai Chi as well as top Aikido. The more relaxed you become, the more powerful your technique, different to being 'in the zone'.


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## jezr74 (Feb 23, 2015)

K-man said:


> I believe so. No amount of putting yourself 'in the zone' will help if you aren't at your peak of fitness and you haven't prepared yourself for the competition. It may make you feel that you are doing well but the results may show otherwise. Regardless of being 'in the zone', you still are producing your maximum physical effort.
> 
> Adding Ki to your martial art training, at least Ki as I have experienced it, enables you to perform your techniques without physical effort. That is referred to in Stanley Pranin's interview with Koichi Tohai. It is a matter of relaxation, something you see in Tai Chi as well as top Aikido. The more relaxed you become, the more powerful your technique, different to being 'in the zone'.



Maybe the zone is not the best description, as it will have differing meanings as well. I found that in that state ( 'the zone') the effort needed to excel was less than normal and I could take everything in and feel clear and not step wrong and still have reserves.

When I'm focused, I have a completely different mind set and cannot see clearly outside of that focused parameter, I tend to work hard for a good result, I may get to the same place as "in the zone", but I'm spent mentally and psychically.


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## jezr74 (Feb 24, 2015)

K-man said:


> You can define Ki as you like .. mind, spirit, will, intent, whatever. When the mind and body are together we are strong. Take away the will to resist and you fall in a heap.



Can you explain intent with Ki?


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## K-man (Feb 24, 2015)

jezr74 said:


> Can you explain intent with Ki?


Not really in a definitive way. What I was offering was a choice of ways to describe Ki. There is so much mystic mumbo jumbo associated with Ki that I was just putting out terms that may gel with different people. As to intent ... it is the intent to attack your opponent's centre that would fit the bill. Any technique you like to look at will have points where there can be a physical clash. By redirecting your mind to destroying your opponent's centre or structure you can avoid the physical clash that occurs when you are focused on the technique.


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## Transk53 (Feb 24, 2015)

K-man said:


> I believe so. No amount of putting yourself 'in the zone' will help if you aren't at your peak of fitness and you haven't prepared yourself for the competition. It may make you feel that you are doing well but the results may show otherwise. Regardless of being 'in the zone', you still are producing your maximum physical effort.
> 
> Adding Ki to your martial art training, at least Ki as I have experienced it, enables you to perform your techniques without physical effort. That is referred to in Stanley Pranin's interview with Koichi Tohai. It is a matter of relaxation, something you see in Tai Chi as well as top Aikido. The more relaxed you become, the more powerful your technique, different to being 'in the zone'.



Thanks and makes sense. I will if I can find that interview


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## Shai Hulud (Feb 24, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> A fascinated sceptic, now that is intriguing!


I may have been able to word that better if it sounds like an oxymoron. I have read about TCM (Traditional Chinese Medicine) and Taoist health practices, and while I'm still trying to look for objective Western-style research into cases, papers and manuscripts on things like Qi and Qi Gong, I'm hooked to it all.


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## jezr74 (Feb 24, 2015)

K-man said:


> Not really in a definitive way. What I was offering was a choice of ways to describe Ki. There is so much mystic mumbo jumbo associated with Ki that I was just putting out terms that may gel with different people. As to intent ... it is the intent to attack your opponent's center that would fit the bill. Any technique you like to look at will have points where there can be a physical clash. By redirecting your mind to destroying your opponent's center or structure you can avoid the physical clash that occurs when you are focused on the technique.



Is this related to or works with relaxed technique? 

For example. a technique I'm rather fond of is with a straight wrist grab, maneuver the held hand as if to throw a frisbee, then use circular motion to bring the arm and hand around across the partners shoulder area in a similar shape to a cat roll (for arm position), at the same time your free hand is guiding neck of the partner to bring their balance off. As your held arm makes contact over the shoulder you can just take their center of balance and they fall. Or you can potentially use a strong level of intent and really drop your partner hard. Is this along the lines? Is it the transfer of intent to your opponent, in line with how they perceive you as a threat. One of our principles opens with a strike to the face, if I pull the strike or have it stop short to the side the partner can react and fight my technique, but if I strike for the face and only pull short very close and they have not been able to read my intent, they normally give up their center very quickly in reaction and the remained of my technique can flow unhindered.

Am I on the right line, or is it more physical than mental?


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## K-man (Feb 24, 2015)

jezr74 said:


> Is this related to or works with relaxed technique?
> 
> For example. a technique I'm rather fond of is with a straight wrist grab, maneuver the held hand as if to throw a frisbee, then use circular motion to bring the arm and hand around across the partners shoulder area in a similar shape to a cat roll (for arm position), at the same time your free hand is guiding neck of the partner to bring their balance off. As your held arm makes contact over the shoulder you can just take their center of balance and they fall. Or you can potentially use a strong level of intent and really drop your partner hard. Is this along the lines? Is it the transfer of intent to your opponent, in line with how they perceive you as a threat. One of our principles opens with a strike to the face, if I pull the strike or have it stop short to the side the partner can react and fight my technique, but if I strike for the face and only pull short very close and they have not been able to read my intent, they normally give up their center very quickly in reaction and the remained of my technique can flow unhindered.
> 
> Am I on the right line, or is it more physical than mental?


I think we are talking about what in Aikido we call Iriminage. We practise it from where our wrist is held or without contact. We don't normally train it where we hold the wrist. But, regardless of who is holding, the first point of resistance is when you 'throw the frisbee'. For me than is a soft extension. If you try to use strength it will normally fail against a non-compliant partner. 

We do train Iriminage with the hand on the neck but that is not my preferred option. For most people 'guiding' means pulling or pushing which is a physical act and triggers the second point of resistance. If you try to pull or push on the neck again, you will be stopped. For it to work against a resisting partner you need to extend out and go around the strength as you bring his head toward your shoulder. 

The final part with the arm across the head or chest is the third and fourth points at which the technique fails against resistance, firstly as you bring your arm in and secondly the actual takedown. If you push with your arm or use any force, it will fail. This part of the technique is achieved by moving your centre causing you partner to fall without any strength being applied. If you want to be nasty, this is where you hit them with kokyu or the breath throw. Actually, the arm doesn't even need to be near his face or chest for the technique to work.

So, how does this apply to using Ki? Your description is physical. All along the way your partner is being physically challenged. If you are bigger and stronger, you will probably prevail. What I have described is what I would call using Ki. In a similar vein this technique is basic in Karate and Krav as well, although I teach it a little differently in Krav. However, I still teach the technique without using strength. It takes a while to learn and it does take a good teacher but once you have an understanding of this technique you can apply the same principle to a wide range of other techniques.

To be fair, on the street against an untrained person this technique would probably work using physical strength. When you train it in class with a partner who knows what you are doing, you will be stopped if your technique is not spot on.


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## jezr74 (Feb 24, 2015)

K-man said:


> I think we are talking about what in Aikido we call Iriminage. We practise it from where our wrist is held or without contact. We don't normally train it where we hold the wrist. But, regardless of who is holding, the first point of resistance is when you 'throw the frisbee'. For me than is a soft extension. If you try to use strength it will normally fail against a non-compliant partner.
> 
> We do train Iriminage with the hand on the neck but that is not my preferred option. For most people 'guiding' means pulling or pushing which is a physical act and triggers the second point of resistance. If you try to pull or push on the neck again, you will be stopped. For it to work against a resisting partner you need to extend out and go around the strength as you bring his head toward your shoulder.
> 
> ...



Thanks, I think you have described exactly what I was trying to say with more clarity. I'm currently working my way out of the physicality of it, trying to advance on to more relaxed technique and proper application of Ki. 

I may have to see if I can find a Korean translation of the names you have.


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## Transk53 (Feb 25, 2015)

Shai Hulud said:


> I may have been able to word that better if it sounds like an oxymoron. I have read about TCM (Traditional Chinese Medicine) and Taoist health practices, and while I'm still trying to look for objective Western-style research into cases, papers and manuscripts on things like Qi and Qi Gong, I'm hooked to it all.



Choose how you want to word it  Hey you're place in the martial arts and how you see it. I don't understand any of it. I would read up on it, but my mind is pretty closed. You know what it can't all be hocus pocus so perhaps I should delve in a little way, at least until my ears start bleeding


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## Shai Hulud (Feb 25, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Choose how you want to word it  Hey you're place in the martial arts and how you see it. I don't understand any of it. I would read up on it, but my mind is pretty closed. You know what it can't all be hocus pocus so perhaps I should delve in a little way, at least until my ears start bleeding


With all that hocus pocus over Chi, Jing, Shen, the twelve channels and small circulation!


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## Transk53 (Feb 26, 2015)

Shai Hulud said:


> With all that hocus pocus over Chi, Jing, Shen, the twelve channels and small circulation!



And few choice Jet Li films by the sounds of it!


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## wingerjim (Mar 10, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> Some of the stories I've heard about Chi makes it sound like, if I developed my Chi enough I could be Superman or Luke Skywalker. That might sound silly not to mention an exaggeration, but I've heard of people performing tremendous feats of strength, speed, ect. using Chi. I also heard it can be a fountain of youth, the way Yoda was able to bounce around like a muppet on crack when he was over 800 years old which even for his species is quite old.


I am certainly no expert, but I believe chi is similar to the inner condition, mental state, and emotional state one feel like if you are say shooting free throws in basketball and are just in such a great zone you almost cannot miss or when you are jogging and feel like you can go on forever or when you are focused on doing a puzzle and the pieces just seem to come very easy much more so than normal. Like most things, the more you do and the deeper compassion you have for it, something grows from that and in MA it is called Chi. I can feel it sitting here typing on my PC right now.


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