# Sparring Contac



## tsdclaflin (Jan 6, 2007)

What level of contact do you use in sparring?  In class and in tournaments?  When you answer, please state your style.  And what kind of protective gear is required?

I have trained in two different TSD schools.  The first school said "light to medium" contact and no contact to the face.  In actuality, it was light contact to the face (with foam head and hand gear) and medium to full contact to the body.  I didn't like it. The second school said "no contact" and they meant it.  I started there as a cho dan, and I was scolded by black belts until I learned to control my techniques.

What level do you use?  What level SHOULD you use?

I'm now teaching and am curious about a consensus.


----------



## michaeledward (Jan 6, 2007)

Sparring with 'no contact' doesn't seem to be sparring at all, does it? Isn't that more of just a cardio exercise.

I just got back from sparring class - by the way - our school is a Parker Planas American Kenpo school. We are told to use 75% power. We are told no contact to the front of the face or the groin. Our required gear is mouthpiece, headgear, hands and feet. Some choose to use shin guards.

We do continuous sparring, and when I am working with another, I really am focusing on helping the other person train. At 42 years old, I am the oldest guy in our group. This morning, I think we had kids as young as 8 years old. Everybody faces everybody, so obviously, I am only 'hitting' the kids as a training tool; a tap to the ribs to tell him to keep his elbows down, a tap to the head to keep his hands up. There is one young man - maybe 15 or 16 years old - who has been sparring much longer than me, who could just kill me - he comes at me like Rocky at Apollo. With some of the other adults in class, we have really backed down our power, focusing more on landing strikes. So, for all the guys over 25 years old - I would say we are using perhaps 50%.

I think there needs to be some contact. But all contact should be controlled.


----------



## dragonswordkata (Jan 6, 2007)

I teach Kempo Karate,
When I teach/spar with my highest ranking student we use light contact to the body, none to the face and groin (thank goodness). We also rarely use pads, except when preparing for a tourniment or with lower belts. Since he is a upper rank, 1st brown, we sometimes encorperate take downs/sweeps and holds into the sparring. 
I find that teaching no contact to lower belts helps them rely, and build, on thier skills and self control and not rely on the pads so much. I also don't allow sparing till they are purple/blue belt and have a good grasp of the basic stances, closed hand strikes/blocks and knowlidge that sparing is a time to learn, work together, and hone skills, not simply to bost ones pride at someones exspence.


----------



## Makalakumu (Jan 6, 2007)

I teach Tang Soo Do and contact during sparring, in my dojang, depends on level.  There is one rule that I always keep though...contact is mandatory.

I define contact in the following ways...

Light contact = 25% power and speed
Medium contact = 50% power and speed
Heavy contact = 75% power and speed
Full contact = 100% power and speed

White Belt - light contact to the body and head.  Hand, foot, head protection, plus mouth guard and groin cup are required.

Green Belt - light contact to the head, medium to the body.  Hand, foot, shin, head and face, chest protectors, plus mouth gaurd and groin cup.

Red Belt - Medium contact to head and heavy to the body.  Hand, foot, shin, head and face, chest protectors, plus mouth gaurd and groin cup.

Brown and Black - Heavy contact.  Protective equipment varies from highly protected to no protection.

For competition we train all levels of contact, depending on the tournament the student would like to enter.  My dojang doesn't go to tournaments as a group, that isn't our focus, but I help my students do so if they wish it.


----------



## fireman00 (Jan 6, 2007)

we do both Olympic TKD  and point sparring.  Olympic = 3/4 strength at full speed.  Point = 1/2 strength at full speed.


----------



## MBuzzy (Jan 7, 2007)

The rule in class is full contact, no gear....but everyone controls their techniques so that no one gets hurt.  

It was also never really defined....much less structured though, since the classes are VERY small.


----------



## Mariachi Joe (Jan 7, 2007)

Shaolin Kempo Karate.  We use cups, boxing gloves, mouth guard, and helmets when we spar.  Tournaments are light contact, in the dojo I'd say we go half strength


----------



## wade (Jan 7, 2007)

Olympic style TKD, ho-goo, head guard, etc. Trembling impact, if you ain't hitting you ain't trying. One of the great pleasures is to punch someone hard enough on the chest guard to either knock them down or out. In class or at a tournament, full power according to your ability and level. IE: the two players are of equal weight, belt, age and experience. We don't have upper belts thumping on lower ranks or lighter weights just cause they can. To be honest, I've never really understood the point of light or non-contact sparring. I know that many people say that non-contact sparring is the "Traditional" way to train but to me that is like learning how to swim but not getting into the water. Sorry but I just don't get it.


----------



## Master Jay S. Penfil (Jan 8, 2007)

I teach Tang Soo Do in my school, and we do very little sparring. I come from a different thought process regarding training

Most schools in our market place have students sparring as early as their first class, or shortly there after. I dont allow anyone to spar until they earn their 6th gup (green belt), which generally takes at least 1 year. I believe that a person who doesnt have a firm grasp on what a technique is, and understands distance, timing and what focus is, with regard to light, medium and heavy contact levels, mixed with depth perception, they have no business training with another student. 

Once a student has reached green belt level in my school they have a clear understanding of, and ability to demonstrate all of the above mentioned principles and concepts, and can apply them with one another.

Keep in mind that every student who walks in your door has different goals, and abilities. If I have two students who are in good health and condition who want to mix it up on the floor they will be allowed to apply higher levels of impact then those who may not be ready for such levels, or have the physical structure to withstand such levels. 

If you have students (or instructors) whose goals are to bully others, and become abusive to smaller or less skilled students, you will be at risk on many levels from both legal issues as well as attrition to your membership. It is at all time a necessity to weed out those who are unable or un-willing to ratchet up or down on their speed and impact levels in order to work with others in a positive fashion. There is nothing wrong with training FULL CONTACT if both parties are in agreement that this is what they are looking for. The problems arise when the fight becomes one sided, and there are injuries.

The #1 reason for loss of students is, and has always been sparring injuries. Get rid of the ego issues, and establish mutually beneficial training with all of your students and you will grow a strong school. Allow hot-dog mentality on your floor, and deal with the results.

In my school we use mouth guards and groin cups. That is it If you understand all of the above mentions stuff, you will know where it is safe to hit, and how hard you can hit there without causing serious injuries. I grew up fighting full contact in this fashion, and although we had occasional injuries, they were few and far between because of the excellent defensive skills that were honed into us prior to squaring off with others.

No one spars in my school with anyone else until they have worked with me directly for enough time that I feel confident that they can be trusted to word WITH others, and not ON others. Remember, we are training to improve each other, not kill each other. 

Contact is crucial, but not on the first try learning distance, timing, target acquisition, etc. are all things that will get better with time. When students are guided along the proper path they develop in a positive fashion. When they are simply thrown into the water, and told to sink or swim, that is when injuries will happen.

As Responsible instructors, it is our job to maintain control on our floor. If we have a loose canon on the floor, and we dont take charge of that person it will become costly to all who are involved; the victim of the excessive contact, the one who makes the contact, and us, as school owns when the stuff hits the fan and the attorneys get involved.

Just my thoughts


Yours in Tang Soo Do,


Master Jay S. Penfil


*TANG SOO!!!*


----------



## Makalakumu (Jan 8, 2007)

Good points about sparring and new students, Master Penfil.  I do not have new students spar.  I take as long as it takes to make sure the fundamentals get across first and then I introduce it very slowly.  The students spar slowly and use light contact.

Sparring, in the sense that you go out onto the floor and go at it like kickboxers and attempt to knock the crap out of each other, isn't very useful unless you are training to knock the crap out of each other in the ring.  With Karate, alot of the concepts are more subtle and they need to be worked up to in a series of steps.  When my students go out onto the floor, they are going out with a specific purpose and/or objective.  

With that being said, I think sparring is an essential part of training.  In fact, I think that it is an equal with any other aspect of training.  You've got to be able to get these techniques to work against someone who is going to resist you.  Whether you are using the principles in the hyung to punch, block or kick or you are attempting to use a throw to unbalance your opponent, you have got to have that experience.

When it comes to gear, I tend to use more gear rather then less.  You can never be too careful and even when you trust each other and among a group of friends, injuries happen.  I know.  I've gotten plenty this way and the simple safety precautions of wearing certain protective gear really do make a difference.  

As far as liability goes, I've spoken to an attorney on this matter and the adivce that I received is that if one is sparring at all in class, the teacher is better protected if they require their students to wear gear.  The argument that the teacher is taking the proper steps to protect a students safety is much easier to make this way.

It's a sad fact in our society that we have to get such advice.  Far better if we could just make our own choice regarding this matter, but this is the way it is.

John


----------



## Blindside (Jan 8, 2007)

I'm a kenpo student, we run the spectrum, where it is simply "where do you want to play at?"  With underbelts it is generally light contact, and is built up with experience and depending on the attitude of the student.  Most upper belts stay in the medium-heavy contact area, unless someone is feeling hoppy then a good full-contact match can be seen.  We use standard hand, head, and foot gear, and a cup since the groin is always an open target.  With underbelts we avoid the face, with upper belts (meanng high-colored) pretty much anything is an open target.

I must say, I've done "no-contact sparring" and well, something just ain't right about it.  You don't learn about keeping your gaurd up, if someone just keeps saying "I hit you in the head."  

Lamont


----------



## Blindside (Jan 8, 2007)

MBuzzy said:


> The rule in class is full contact, no gear....but everyone controls their techniques so that no one gets hurt.


 
OK, I don't understand this, if you are "controlling" the technique it isn't full contact.  Could you clarify?

Lamont


----------



## thepanjr (Jan 8, 2007)

I study Nei Tai Dai Karate and we have no contact sparring with lower belts but only contact with the advaced belts. Higher belts(brown and up) can aim for the groin, and green belts and higher can use open handed techniques. No protectibe gear other than groin guards for the men, and breast protector for the woman.


----------



## Kacey (Jan 8, 2007)

Blindside said:


> OK, I don't understand this, if you are "controlling" the technique it isn't full contact.  Could you clarify?
> 
> Lamont


Control = full speed, full power, control the level of penetration.  That is, I can miss by an inch, I can touch the surface, I can go an inch in... or farther... depending on the amount of damage I want to do.

We spar starting fairly early; however, white-green must use hand and foot pads and mouthguards (plus cups for males) if they are sparring with contact.  We _never_ reduce the speed of sparring except as a drill, because if you learn early to control your technique with speed, you will never learn to control it any other way.  We practice pads-free sparring full speed and full power; however, we start by having white belts aim 1 foot away from their partner, and gradually reduce the distance over time.  We also have class periodically in street clothes, including shoes.  After all, when was the last time_ you_ were attacked by a barefoot, pajama-clad person wearing pads?


----------



## tsdclaflin (Jan 8, 2007)

Thanks everyone. Very good information.


----------



## MBuzzy (Jan 8, 2007)

Blindside said:


> OK, I don't understand this, if you are "controlling" the technique it isn't full contact. Could you clarify?
> 
> Lamont


 
To clarify - first off, the "rule" is full contact.  So if I hit someone and knock them into a wall, no one will say anything.  But we all use a degree of control to make sure that we don't actually hurt each other.  If some of the students went all out, full contact, they could do some SERIOUS damage.  Since we're all military....no one wants to go in to work with broken noses and ribs and such.  My instructor kicked me in the stomach the other day, and I can guarantee that if wasn't controlling his kick, I wouldn't have gotten up for a very long time.  Hope that clarifies what I mean....I'm not sure if that still fits the definition of "full contact" or not.


----------



## jdinca (Jan 8, 2007)

In our school, you can join the light contact class as an orange belt. Full contact requires you to be an instructor. We use Kuoshu rules for sparring, so it's very different from doing techniques on each other. The amount of contact and speed when practicing techniques on a live person varies with belt level. If we want a lower level student to "let it fly", an instructor will throw on a chest protector and be the dummy. Or, an instructor trainee, if I've got one standing around.


----------



## wade (Jan 8, 2007)

Hmmmm, military, eh? Where do you think I learned to train, spar and teach the way I do. Ft Bragg, Nc, 5th SFG, Tkd instructor. They did not do light nor non-contact tournaments (smokers) back in the early 70's. They served beer in the stands while we brawled on the floor. 

Also, I still don't get the "full contact concept but with out hitting the target". Why? If you are not hitting something or someone then it's not full contact. It might be full speed and focus but it is not full contact. Ask a boxer to punch you but not hit, uh huh, yeah, like that's gonna happen. He will smack the crap out of you. That is full contact.


----------



## RedHeadRob (Jan 28, 2007)

I'm a Kenpo student and we go full contact with headgear (up to brown belt), hands, feet, shin, and groin.  We are not allowed face contact, but it happens sometimes.  I'd say we go 75% power.


----------



## Blindside (Jan 28, 2007)

RedHeadRob said:


> I'm a Kenpo student and we go full contact with headgear (up to brown belt), hands, feet, shin, and groin. We are not allowed face contact, but it happens sometimes. I'd say we go 75% power.


 
So if you call 75% "full contact," what do you call actually trying to KO each other?

Lamont


----------



## Muwubu16858 (Jan 29, 2007)

My teacher trained me and his son together, and we always fought full contact, with nothing but open finger gloves like in the UFC.  Anytime we got hurt, my teacher fixed it for us, since he is certified in accupressure and accupuncture therapy. He also knows how to reset bones.  He always told me that his teacher knew the same things and never had a problem with student's injuries.  At the Seoul Central YMCA in Chung No, under Grandmaster Oh, Sae Joon, full contact, knock out fighting was a way of life.


----------



## JT_the_Ninja (Jan 29, 2007)

Whenever we spar (in class or at a test), it's non-contact (in name only, I can assure you), since the aim isn't to hurt the opponent but to show your technique, and the control thereof. I can see where this would lead some to believe people from my school can't really hit, but I wouldn't want to be in a full-contact fight with _any_ of my instructors or seniors. They put their techniques precisely where they mean them to be.


----------

