# Makiwara or Free-Standing Bag?



## JasonASmith (Nov 5, 2006)

Hello All,
I'm in a bit of a quandary, so any help will be appreciated...
My practice space is in my basement, and it has a VERY low ceiling(about 6 feet in total height), so a hanging bag is out of the question...
That leaves one of the water(or sand) filled free-standing bags...
My quandary is if I want to go with one of those bags, or should I stay traditional and get one of the wall-mounted "clapper" Makiwaras.
I consider what I am learning to be a traditional style of Shotokan, and I do like the thought of training in a manner that's somewhat similar to the original intent, however the flexibility of one of those bags is a big plus to me, as well...
I can't put a Makiwara outside either(the neighbours already think that we're strange!), however, I came across a Makiwara that is spring-loaded and on a steel base...I guess that you bolt it into the floor, which would work(because I don't care about the floor that much!)
Any thoughts, recommendations?


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## KOROHO (Nov 5, 2006)

You will get different results from the bag and the makiwara.  If you have room, you may want to do both.

First, I don't like the wall mounted makiwara.  With the traditional method of putting the post inthe ground, there is atleast some give to it.  They don't just get stuck in the ground, the hold is dug, the post placed and a rock on the front side towrds the bottom and a nother rock higher up on the back side.  The spring loaded one on a steel base sounds like a good idea.

Using the makiwara will of course harden your hands and help develop focus, etc.

I use the free standing, water filled base from Century.  I like this because I can kick and punch and do various drills.  The drawback is that they do break, so use sand if you keep it in the basement.   Using the bag, you will not get the same hand conditioning as the makiwara, although using one of the heavey canvass bags can get you that if you don't use gloves.


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## fnorfurfoot (Nov 5, 2006)

One thing that I find to be frustrating with the free standing bags is that you end up chasing them around the room.  Which on the one hand, keeps you moving.  But on the other hand, if you are working on a particular kick or combination, you have to stop what you are doing to reposition the bag to where you want it in the room.


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## tshadowchaser (Nov 5, 2006)

I agree with going with both if you have room. Both are used for different things


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## IWishToLearn (Nov 5, 2006)

I use an Ultraman from the Karate Connection.


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## Robert Lee (Nov 5, 2006)

Have you thought of getting a workout partener then some kicking pads  punching shields thia pads to get a workout that way. You will even at times be more encouraged to get your workout in


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## KOROHO (Nov 5, 2006)

fnorfurfoot said:


> One thing that I find to be frustrating with the free standing bags is that you end up chasing them around the room. Which on the one hand, keeps you moving. But on the other hand, if you are working on a particular kick or combination, you have to stop what you are doing to reposition the bag to where you want it in the room.



Excellent point about these.
Plus, if your basement floor is concrete the bottom of the base will wear out.  I got some carpet strips for my floor.  I hit on it until it slid to the end of the carpet, then went to the other side and kept hitting until it got back to the other end again.


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## JasonASmith (Nov 6, 2006)

Robert Lee said:


> Have you thought of getting a workout partener then some kicking pads punching shields thia pads to get a workout that way. You will even at times be more encouraged to get your workout in


That would be the ideal, of course...
Unfortunately, I doubt that that would happen...
Who knows? Maybe someone will volunteer to take a beating...


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## Grenadier (Nov 6, 2006)

If you want to get the feel of hitting, then I'd suggest taking a heavy bag, and placing it against the wall, where one of the studs are located.  Secure the bag to the wall, with the base about 3 feet above the ground.  This can be done with chains, and also an old belt (to secure the base).  

This way, you get both aspects, from one bag.


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## twendkata71 (Nov 6, 2006)

*I personally prefer the traditional makiwara. You can get the ones that bold into the floor with concrete screws. I also like the BOB striking models. The one of from the karate connection is good too.*
*The nice makiwara stand is a bit expensive. You can perchanse on from the ISKF web site, the Shureido web site(the one at the main store on Okinawa, and there are other places like the USAKF web site to order from. *
*The spring loaded wall mount I have never tried. I can't say that it would not work.*
*If you go to LOWE's or HOME DEPOT you will find most of the things you need to make your own makiwara, except for the pad.  If you want to go "old school" you can take a cloth rug, fold it over the top of the makiwara and rap it in sisal rope. It is a bit ruff on the hands, but your sensei should show you the proper way to strike the makiwara as to not shred your hands.  If you have a friend that has welding skills and a wood shop you can create all sorts of makiwara combinations.*
*FYI, my neighbors think I am a bit strange for punching the makiwara out in the back garden area. But, I am training for me and care little for what the neighbors think anyway.*
*Good luck and happy punching.*


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## JasonASmith (Nov 6, 2006)

twendkata71 said:


> *I personally prefer the traditional makiwara. You can get the ones that bold into the floor with concrete screws. I also like the BOB striking models. The one of from the karate connection is good too.*
> *The nice makiwara stand is a bit expensive. You can perchanse on from the ISKF web site, the Shureido web site(the one at the main store on Okinawa, and there are other places like the USAKF web site to order from. *
> *The spring loaded wall mount I have never tried. I can't say that it would not work.*
> *If you go to LOWE's or HOME DEPOT you will find most of the things you need to make your own makiwara, except for the pad. If you want to go "old school" you can take a cloth rug, fold it over the top of the makiwara and rap it in sisal rope. It is a bit ruff on the hands, but your sensei should show you the proper way to strike the makiwara as to not shred your hands. If you have a friend that has welding skills and a wood shop you can create all sorts of makiwara combinations.*
> ...


Thanks for the info, and maybe I'll just say "to hell with the neighbours!" and go for it...


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## searcher (Nov 6, 2006)

JasonASmith said:


> Thanks for the info, and maybe I'll just say "to hell with the neighbours!" and go for it...


 

It may be that way for you in your neighborhood, but in mine they will take a shot at you or bring over the boys to "have a talk."


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## pstarr (Nov 6, 2006)

If you can't have both, build the makiwara!


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## Brandon Fisher (Nov 7, 2006)

I agree on the makiwara I am a big supporter of makiwara training.  I highly encourage it in my students but only one uses it everyday other than me even that has been slow lately since I missed a break trying to break a patio block that was very wet underneath and didn't notice it.  Shureido has a makiwara that you place on a floor base that doesn't bolt into the floor however the platform moves a bit on you.






This is the makiwara I have in my dojo.


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## Boomer (Nov 9, 2006)

It is my experience that makiwara training is best done in the dojo, unless one is already familiar with how to use a makiwara.  I've been studying martial arts for quite a while, and have seen some gruesome looking hands mangled on makiwara because of "home schooling".

The thai pad drills were an excellent notion, also, and you do have kickboxers in your dojo, Jason, that would be willing to show you some drills.  Larry Bailey is especially good with this...

Personally, I hate the wavemaster, for all the reasons stated above.  Also, if you adjust the height on it, it tends to fall over when you pound it.  

Overall, the best training I had in home was a padded "mook jung", or "wing chun dummy".  It had just enough padding to keep you from hurting yourself, and gave me more surface area to strike than just the makiwara's small surface.  The Ultraman seems similar to this.  These items though, tend to get a bit pricey.


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## JasonASmith (Nov 10, 2006)

Boomer said:


> It is my experience that makiwara training is best done in the dojo, unless one is already familiar with how to use a makiwara. I've been studying martial arts for quite a while, and have seen some gruesome looking hands mangled on makiwara because of "home schooling".
> 
> The thai pad drills were an excellent notion, also, and you do have kickboxers in your dojo, Jason, that would be willing to show you some drills. Larry Bailey is especially good with this...
> 
> ...


Thanks, Sempai
Maybe I'll hit Mr. Bailey up for some drills....


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## chinto (Jun 9, 2007)

JasonASmith said:


> Hello All,
> I'm in a bit of a quandary, so any help will be appreciated...
> My practice space is in my basement, and it has a VERY low ceiling(about 6 feet in total height), so a hanging bag is out of the question...
> That leaves one of the water(or sand) filled free-standing bags...
> ...


 

my sugestion would be go with the makawara, but get instruction in the use and training with it. Like any tool or training aid you can injure yourself if you do not know how to use the tool. but i think it will do at least as well as any heavy bag would for you and does better then a heavy bag for meany things.


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## twendkata71 (Jun 10, 2007)

I like both.but I prefer the makiwara.


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## seasoned (Jun 11, 2007)

*Makiwara or Free-Standing Bag?*
Both the free standing bag and the Makiwara will develop power, in fact any resistance will. But to develop the one punch type of power that the old masters felt you needed to win a battle, then, enter the Makiwara. It starts with the spring action, because of the way it is built. It allows you to put power into it but does not allow you to over extend. In fact the way it springs back, encourages you to learn how to rebound your punch. At the moment of contact there is an immediate connection that happens within our structure that is felt down to the ground. It is this connection that is hard to feel when we are bobbing and weaving on the free standing bag. It is this feeling that we must feel and train with before we can begin to train with any moving target. Many a GoJu master felt that all you needed was Sanchin, Makiwara, and one good kata, and you could take that into battle. In any art you are looking for some kind of set-up so you can finish the fight with one stroke. With the Makiwara it is the punch.


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## chinto (Jun 12, 2007)

seasoned said:


> *Makiwara or Free-Standing Bag?*
> Both the free standing bag and the Makiwara will develop power, in fact any resistance will. But to develop the one punch type of power that the old masters felt you needed to win a battle, then, enter the Makiwara. It starts with the spring action, because of the way it is built. It allows you to put power into it but does not allow you to over extend. In fact the way it springs back, encourages you to learn how to rebound your punch. At the moment of contact there is an immediate connection that happens within our structure that is felt down to the ground. It is this connection that is hard to feel when we are bobbing and weaving on the free standing bag. It is this feeling that we must feel and train with before we can begin to train with any moving target. Many a GoJu master felt that all you needed was Sanchin, Makiwara, and one good kata, and you could take that into battle. In any art you are looking for some kind of set-up so you can finish the fight with one stroke. With the Makiwara it is the punch.


 
well they did not expect every strike to finish the confrentation, but yes i agree that makawara is my prefered way to train for focous and for power and to "punch through" the target. you were trained then and now to use some techniques to set up that last strike, but makawara will teach you focous and power and condition the bones and hands to deliver the force to do what must be done.


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## Em MacIntosh (Jun 12, 2007)

I have a two home made makiwara.  One is a phonebook wrapped in carpet and the other is a piece of ironwood with a half inch of straw on the striking surface.  The latter doesn't last long.  I hate the wave masters.  You have to fill them with lead shavings or something to make them heavy enough to actually lay into and hit full force.  From my experience, the canvas Hv. Bag with no gloves is the best.  Concentrate on keeping your wrists tight.  "Sugar" your knuckles a little and swell them up so they become a bit numb, then hit it full force.  This forces you not to rely on wrist wraps to protect you from a bend.  It also impact trains your cartilage.  Problem with your knuckles getting numb is that you might overdo it.  I had a six foot ceiling growing up and I managed to use the bag effectively but it was just roped between two chains and had no swivel.  This reduced it's swing but kept it moving.


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## seasoned (Jun 12, 2007)

chinto said:


> well they did not expect every strike to finish the confrentation, but yes i agree that makawara is my prefered way to train for focous and for power and to "punch through" the target. you were trained then and now to use some techniques to set up that last strike, but makawara will teach you focous and power and condition the bones and hands to deliver the force to do what must be done.


 
Correct Chinto, not every technique is designed to finish the confrontation. Some are there to set up that finish blow. Karate is what you want to get out of it. If you want sport then that is what you will focus on. If you are a traditionalist then some of the old training implements are what may interest you. Karate was devised as a means to destroy with the least amount of moves possible. Makiwara was designed to accomplish this. The free standing bag has its place as well as the old tried and true Makiwara. GoJu is my first love so I cant speck for other arts and training methods but I love to discuss Okinawan GoJu very much.


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## twendkata71 (Jun 12, 2007)

The makiwara is not just for conditioning the hands, it is also for developing the hip power and proper alignment for strikes as well as power of the strikes. Motobu felt it to be the most important training devise. He even had one in his  toilet(outhouse back then).


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## seasoned (Jun 12, 2007)

chinto said:


> well they did not expect every strike to finish the confrentation, but yes i agree that makawara is my prefered way to train for focous and for power and to "punch through" the target. you were trained then and now to use some techniques to set up that last strike, but makawara will teach you focous and power and condition the bones and hands to deliver the force to do what must be done.


 
When punching through the target, is it as much mental as physical? At what point when punching through the target does it become more push then punch? When punching a free standing bag I think we could easily punch a foot or so into the bag in our quest to move it. IMHO the Makiwara only allows us inches before it springs us back into position again., which in affect is teaching us good form for the next technique. 
I will admit that boxers do very well with free standing bags and they dont use a Makiwara, but then again I dont box.


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## chinto (Jun 13, 2007)

seasoned said:


> Correct Chinto, not every technique is designed to finish the confrontation. Some are there to set up that finish blow. Karate is what you want to get out of it. If you want sport then that is what you will focus on. If you are a traditionalist then some of the old training implements are what may interest you. Karate was devised as a means to destroy with the least amount of moves possible. Makiwara was designed to accomplish this. The free standing bag has its place as well as the old tried and true Makiwara. GoJu is my first love so I cant speck for other arts and training methods but I love to discuss Okinawan GoJu very much.


 
yes I love Karate myself, though i train in a style of shorin ryu myself.


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## chinto (Jun 13, 2007)

twendkata71 said:


> The makiwara is not just for conditioning the hands, it is also for developing the hip power and proper alignment for strikes as well as power of the strikes. Motobu felt it to be the most important training devise. He even had one in his toilet(outhouse back then).


 

Yep, all of it works together, alinement of the bones and joints, hips and arms and even legs and stance to make that strike what it should be. not that every strike will end the confrentation, but every strike has that potential depending on the openings and the openings you make for yourself with your foot work and taisabaki and other techniques.


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## chinto (Jun 13, 2007)

seasoned said:


> When punching through the target, is it as much mental as physical? At what point when punching through the target does it become more push then punch? When punching a free standing bag I think we could easily punch a foot or so into the bag in our quest to move it. IMHO the Makiwara only allows us inches before it springs us back into position again., which in affect is teaching us good form for the next technique.
> I will admit that boxers do very well with free standing bags and they dont use a Makiwara, but then again I dont box.


 

Punching through the target is about penetration.  You aim for behind that target so to speak, the idea being to focouse the trama into the body and not have it be like meany sport trained people do, where they aim to strike only to the surfice and do not get the  penetration for the truama that will dispatch the attacker when its a real confrentation. the makawara teaches you to strike hard and with 'fallowthrough" to use a sports term for what couses that penatrating strike and the trauma that will end the confrentation quickly.


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## seasoned (Jun 16, 2007)

chinto said:


> Punching through the target is about penetration. You aim for behind that target so to speak, the idea being to focouse the trama into the body and not have it be like meany sport trained people do, where they aim to strike only to the surfice and do not get the penetration for the truama that will dispatch the attacker when its a real confrentation. the makawara teaches you to strike hard and with 'fallowthrough" to use a sports term for what couses that penatrating strike and the trauma that will end the confrentation quickly.


Good point, penetration is not a word we hear to often when talking about striking. This as you have mentioned is the fine line between damaging technique and a pushing one.


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## chinto (Jun 18, 2007)

seasoned said:


> Good point, penetration is not a word we hear to often when talking about striking. This as you have mentioned is the fine line between damaging technique and a pushing one.


 
yes and penetration is the diference between a bruse and trama to bones and internal organs that will end the fight quickly. A rib in the lungs is one of the things that will end a fight fast. others are ruptured spleens and livers and meany others. but they all requier penetration of the technique.


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## Em MacIntosh (Jun 18, 2007)

I think a heavy bag is really good for this.  You can tell  the difference when you pushed it from when you hit it "deep".  It's about whether you feel the energy of the strike dispurse through the whole bag or just a small concentrated area.  You can just tell when you hit it right.  The makiwara represents the "feel" of kaate and the karate punch better though.  Sand in a giant flower pot is good too.  Builds callouses.


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## chinto (Aug 18, 2007)

seasoned said:


> Correct Chinto, not every technique is designed to finish the confrontation. Some are there to set up that finish blow. Karate is what you want to get out of it. If you want sport then that is what you will focus on. If you are a traditionalist then some of the old training implements are what may interest you. Karate was devised as a means to destroy with the least amount of moves possible. Makiwara was designed to accomplish this. The free standing bag has its place as well as the old tried and true Makiwara. GoJu is my first love so I cant speck for other arts and training methods but I love to discuss Okinawan GoJu very much.


 
well I am not a goju man, but I study traditional okinawan style of shorin ryu called Shobayashi. I dont train for sport and like to use the older tools as they were developed carefully over a long long time to optimize the chances of survival of a confrentation that could not be avoided... of coures avoiding a confrantation is almost always preferable.


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## chinto (Aug 18, 2007)

twendkata71 said:


> The makiwara is not just for conditioning the hands, it is also for developing the hip power and proper alignment for strikes as well as power of the strikes. Motobu felt it to be the most important training devise. He even had one in his toilet(outhouse back then).


 

yep, it inproves technique and builds focouse a lot better then a heavy bag I think.


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