# Best Throw/Locks/Groundwork Martial Art



## Mikkel (Mar 13, 2019)

Hey

I am looking for a martial art that focuses equally much on standing throws/locks, the transition from that to groundwork, and the groundwork itself.. 
Reason for this is that i would like to get a better selfdefense in the throws, locks, and groundwork area. 

Which martial art is the best in difference to these requirements in your opinion?

I am open to ideas on Martial arts that focuses more on the standing throws/locks or the groundwork. Would be nice to find one that features them both though + transitioning.

Hope you can help me 

Thanks in advance!


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## Christopher Adamchek (Mar 13, 2019)

Thats tough, equally as much on each would probably be a krav, or taijutsu program. Granted you wont get super indepth in either area but they should be well balanced.  Otherwise you should study judo and bjj (as you might have already thought).  But if you want it for self-defense then a krav program or similar would be better to give you multiple areas of self defense than just the grappling.


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## drop bear (Mar 13, 2019)

Wrestling while not really containing standing locks and ground work is still probably the best single art to understand their mechanics from a self defense point of view.

Basically you will have a better chance if you understand the timing and entries needed to make those moves work. Rather than a technical expertise at the locks themselves.

From a self defense point of view because staying on top and getting back up are generally seen as higher percentage options in self defence.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 13, 2019)

Mikkel said:


> standing throws/locks, the transition from that to groundwork,


Here are some Combat Shuai Chiao (Chinese wrestling) approach.

Shoulder lock -> kneeling hold






Hip throw -> arm bar






Leg seize, inner hook -> knee drop into groin






Front cut -> throat choke, knee drop on chest


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 13, 2019)

Judo, Sambo, and BJJ cover all three areas. However most BJJ schools tend to focus much more heavily on the groundwork and most Judo schools tend to focus more on throws. If you can find a BJJ school that devotes consistent time to standup or a Judo school that devotes consistent time to groundwork, that would be a good option. Alternately, you might find a school that offers classes in both arts. They complement each other very well.

I don't have enough experience with Sambo to know how well the typical school balances those different focuses.

MMA does a good job of balancing standup (striking, clinching, and takedowns) + groundwork + transitions, but you'll typically get less in-depth exploration of each area.

Catch wrestling has a good balance in those areas, but is hard to find. Other common forms of wrestling (freestyle, folkstyle, Greco) don't have the joint locks.

There are many other westernized forms of jujutsu (ex - Danzan ryu, Shingitai, etc) that cover those different areas and some of them have a fairly balanced approach. However there's a significant range of quality you may encounter in these styles (from decent to terrible) and I don't believe they have the talent pool that you can find in Judo/BJJ/Sambo/MMA/Wrestling.


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## Mikkel (Mar 13, 2019)

Christopher: 
I have bad experience with Krav Maga though, so i am not to keen on that. Mostly cause the gyms in my area or generally my country(Denmark) of what i know, isnt practicing original Krav Maga, but bits of it mashed together(meaning that it only can be applied in few specific situations).. If it had been original, i would have been more keen towards it.. 
But you are right about the Judo and Bjj.. Judo is mostly throws and locks focused, whereas Bjj is groundwork.. I think i am going with Bjj, if i have to choose though

Thanks!


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 13, 2019)

Id recommend sambo, but you might have trouble finding a school, depending on where you live (i have no idea how common it is in denmark)


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## Mikkel (Mar 13, 2019)

Kung fu wang: 
Thanks! Have seen them before, but i dont know how perform them properly, so i think i should attend classes to learn em  

Tony: 
True what you say about Judo and Bjj.. I think i will attend Bjj, if i have to choose, because controlling your opponent once on the ground is the better way i would reckon.  
I also heard about Sambo, which should be good.. Not sure if there is a gym in my area though. 
But it sounds like you think i should focus on either Judo, Bjj, MMA, or wrestling.. I will look into it! Thank you


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 13, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> Id recommend sambo, but you might have trouble finding a school, depending on where you live (i have no idea how common it is in denmark)


If not, my recommendation would be catch wrestling, but that might have the same issue


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## Mikkel (Mar 13, 2019)

Kempodisciple: 
I am not sure.. Looks like there is neither a Sambo dojo or catch wrestling in my area. But i have heard about an unofficial Sambo Dojo nearby(Meaning no webside, or references to location of it). I am looking into it  
Thanks


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## Mikkel (Mar 13, 2019)

Drop Bear: 
True enough.. I have been referenced to Wrestling by a couple of people, but i am not sure if it the martial art for me(I am tall and skinny).. I am thinking more in the way of Bjj/Judo/sambo and alike  
Thanks


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 13, 2019)

Mikkel said:


> Kung fu wang:
> Thanks! Have seen them before, but i dont know how perform them properly, so i think i should attend classes to learn em


You should not take your opponent down and then start to play the ground game. Before you taking your opponent down, you should plan your ground game ahead of time.

The simple strategies are to control your opponent's

- leading arm -> apply your throw -> turn your leading arm control into arm bar.
- leading leg -> apply your throw -> turn your leading leg control into leg bar, knee twist, or knee drop into groin.
- head lock -> apply your throw -> turn your head lock into side mount.
- ...

Arm wrap, head lock -> side mount, arm bar, or head squeeze.


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## Mikkel (Mar 13, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang: 
That looks impressive, that looks like a good way to get your opponent to the ground. So i should be focusing on the groundwork aswell before taking him down. Seems like a good strategy! Thanks


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 13, 2019)

Here is the simple logic. If you can control your opponent's head, after taking him down, you can continue that head control into the ground game. This mean that besides single leg and double leg take down, you will need to develop other take downs by controlling your opponent's head, arm, leg, ...

IMO, the kick, punch, lock, throw, ground game integration should follow a "plan".

You use 

- kick to set up punch.
- punch to set up clinch.
- clinch to set up throw.
- throw to set up ground game.


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## Steve (Mar 13, 2019)

Have you looked into ninjutsu?  I hear it is very effective on the street.


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## Mikkel (Mar 13, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang: 
Allright, it sounds simple enough in theory. But the chance of it going according to the plan(Kick>Punch>Clinch>Throw>Ground game) when defending yourself against an, lets just say a random person, is very low, in my experience.. Everybody reacts differently you know. But what you are saying is that i should get a fair amount of training in both Judo and Bjj maybe? 

Steve: 
Havent heard of it, but i will definitely look into it! Thank you


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## Hanshi (Mar 13, 2019)

Mikkel said:


> Hey
> 
> I am looking for a martial art that focuses equally much on standing throws/locks, the transition from that to groundwork, and the groundwork itself..
> Reason for this is that i would like to get a better selfdefense in the throws, locks, and groundwork area.
> ...






Judo, hapkido and jujutsu generally cover those areas.  I have no knowledge of the Chinese arts that may overlap nor any experience with ninjutsu.  Whatever you choose, look for a school that teaches a well rounded curriculum.


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## drop bear (Mar 13, 2019)

Mikkel said:


> Drop Bear:
> True enough.. I have been referenced to Wrestling by a couple of people, but i am not sure if it the martial art for me(I am tall and skinny).. I am thinking more in the way of Bjj/Judo/sambo and alike
> Thanks



For self defense who cares about body shape?

Tall and skinny might have some relevance in a weight class.


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## Danny T (Mar 13, 2019)

If you are looking for a system that does such take a look at Erik Paulson's CSW Combat Submission Wrestling if there is a coach in your area.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 13, 2019)

Mikkel said:


> Kung Fu Wang:
> Allright, it sounds simple enough in theory. But the chance of it going according to the plan(Kick>Punch>Clinch>Throw>Ground game) when defending yourself against an, lets just say a random person, is very low, in my experience.


Theory? Low chance?

In the following clip, within 15 second, This guy made his combo to work twice in a role back to back.

- roundhouse, side kick to close the distance.
- punch to set up clinch.
- clinch to take his opponent down (no ground game in Sanda rule set).

This clip can prove that the sequence kick, punch, clinch, take down "plan" is not just a "theory". It does work.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 13, 2019)

Mikkel said:


> But what you are saying is that i should get a fair amount of training in both Judo and Bjj maybe?


The issue is your

- Judo and BJJ instructors doesn't teach you how to use kick to set up punch, use punch to set up clinch.
- boxing and MT instructors doesn't teach you how to use punch to set up clinch, use clinch to set up throw. use throw to set up ground game.

You either have to do that integration yourself, or you have to find an instructor who can help you to achieve that kick, punch, lock, throw, and ground game integration..


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 13, 2019)

A punch is more than just a punch. A punch is a punch followed by a pull or wrap. If you can understand that, you are already 1/2 way into the path of the striking game and grappling game integration.


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## Mikkel (Mar 14, 2019)

Drop Bear: 
True enough! You are right, i am going to look into if there is any wrestling gyms in area..  

Danny T: Thanks! Ill look into that!  

Kung Fu Wang:
I am not doubting its effectiveness, but just that it wont be able to work every time. And that there is other tactics/ways to get opponents down/to give up..  But i will try to focus on learning this tactic, it does seem effective  Thank you!


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## spidersam (Mar 14, 2019)

I definitely also recommend checking out shuai jiao. My kungfu school incorporates punch/kick and shuai jiao but not too much ground game. Worth checking out if it’s available in your area.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 17, 2019)

Besides the ground game, the combat Shuai Chiao system (Shuai Jiao, or Chinese wrestling) has already done that integration for you.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Mar 26, 2019)

drop bear said:


> Wrestling while not really containing standing locks and ground work is still probably the best single art to understand their mechanics from a self defense point of view.
> 
> Basically you will have a better chance if you understand the timing and entries needed to make those moves work. Rather than a technical expertise at the locks themselves.
> 
> From a self defense point of view because staying on top and getting back up are generally seen as higher percentage options in self defence.



Unless you get a old style of wrestling in which its closer to a  entire system of defence rather than just sport.   (but most of those are dead now anyway)  Some HEMA styles arew good for this, but then some arent and a lot arent readily taught.  


I would say, i think some styles of jujitsu focus on either grappling or striking more and take your pick out of one which does both as to which you would want to learn to be your base.    eg would you rather fight in to grapple them  as your go to or stay at striking distance and only close in when needed or deemed superior.       (as to which do what i wouldnt know)


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## paitingman (Mar 26, 2019)

I would also recommend Catch Wrestling if there is a group near you.

Classic standing wrestling, clinching, throws, scrambles, grounded grappling for positional dominance in all sorts of relative positions, and ways to tweak or lock every part of your opponent's body.


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## drop bear (Mar 27, 2019)

Rat said:


> Unless you get a old style of wrestling in which its closer to a  entire system of defence rather than just sport.   (but most of those are dead now anyway)  Some HEMA styles arew good for this, but then some arent and a lot arent readily taught.
> 
> 
> I would say, i think some styles of jujitsu focus on either grappling or striking more and take your pick out of one which does both as to which you would want to learn to be your base.    eg would you rather fight in to grapple them  as your go to or stay at striking distance and only close in when needed or deemed superior.       (as to which do what i wouldnt know)



Not really. Adapting to a new environment helps if you are functional first. 

Because you have the basic tools you just need to adjust the priorities. 

And wrestling is about the most fundamental form of grappling.


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## Headhunter (Mar 27, 2019)

Mikkel said:


> Christopher:
> I have bad experience with Krav Maga though, so i am not to keen on that. Mostly cause the gyms in my area or generally my country(Denmark) of what i know, isnt practicing original Krav Maga, but bits of it mashed together(meaning that it only can be applied in few specific situations).. If it had been original, i would have been more keen towards it..
> But you are right about the Judo and Bjj.. Judo is mostly throws and locks focused, whereas Bjj is groundwork.. I think i am going with Bjj, if i have to choose though
> 
> Thanks!


There's no original Krav Maga anymore. The system Imi litchfield developed for the army that's extinct that version doesn't exist anymore. Later on Imi and his top student eyal yanilow completely changed the system to make it more civilian friendly. Eyal now runs KMG Krav Maga Global and even that has changed since then because eyal is constantly making changes and updating it. For example now there's more grappling elements such as arm bar escapes mount escapes etc and it teaches things like shrimping and bridging. That was all done to get with the times with Mma and grappling getting more recognition. There's courses every year about the changes they make. So the original Krav Maga is completely gone now. Maybe some the main principles are the same but the ciriculum and the terminology that's all changed. In fact original Krav Maga didn't even have a ciriculum


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## Kababayan (Mar 29, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> There's no original Krav Maga anymore. The system Imi litchfield developed for the army that's extinct that version doesn't exist anymore. Later on Imi and his top student eyal yanilow completely changed the system to make it more civilian friendly. Eyal now runs KMG Krav Maga Global and even that has changed since then because eyal is constantly making changes and updating it. For example now there's more grappling elements such as arm bar escapes mount escapes etc and it teaches things like shrimping and bridging. That was all done to get with the times with Mma and grappling getting more recognition. There's courses every year about the changes they make. So the original Krav Maga is completely gone now. Maybe some the main principles are the same but the ciriculum and the terminology that's all changed. In fact original Krav Maga didn't even have a ciriculum



Believe it or not there is a guy in San Diego that still teaches the original 20 hour Krav Maga curriculum that Imi Lichtenfeld created. Originally Krav was intended to be a 20 hour course.  There is a school in New York, if I'm not mistaken, that still teaches the original Krav format.  I also have a book with the original Krav format included (I'll pull the book out and include the title later).  What Headhunter said is right regarding the changing of the Krav systems. There are some really good organizations that are made-up of Imi's original students that have updated the Krav curriculum (with Imi's permission).


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## Headhunter (Mar 29, 2019)

Kababayan said:


> Believe it or not there is a guy in San Diego that still teaches the original 20 hour Krav Maga curriculum that Imi Lichtenfeld created. Originally Krav was intended to be a 20 hour course.  There is a school in New York, if I'm not mistaken, that still teaches the original Krav format.  I also have a book with the original Krav format included (I'll pull the book out and include the title later).  What Headhunter said is right regarding the changing of the Krav systems. There are some really good organizations that are made-up of Imi's original students that have updated the Krav curriculum (with Imi's permission).


Well yes but frankly that's probably the reason it was updated. A civilian probably isn't going to learn much in 20 hours and what they do learn they'll forget without regular training. Back then it was for the military so they didn't have time to study in depth they just needed the basics and the Israeli army weren't just regular guys either. They were high level in fitness and dedication and toughness and Krav wouldn't have been good for civilians then because obviously the military won't be using for deescalation purposes.  In modern Krav the most common position is semi passive where your hands are up almost like in surrender as you try to talk down your attacker but your ready to strike from that position. But in the military in most situations where you need to defend yourself you won't be putting your hands up trying to talk your way out because most people attacking a soldier on the battlefield will straight up be trying to kill you. For civilians that's not as common it's more drunk idiots or guys trying to take your phone or stuff like that


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## JR 137 (Mar 30, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> Well yes but frankly that's probably the reason it was updated. A civilian probably isn't going to learn much in 20 hours and what they do learn they'll forget without regular training. Back then it was for the military so they didn't have time to study in depth they just needed the basics and the Israeli army weren't just regular guys either. They were high level in fitness and dedication and toughness and Krav wouldn't have been good for civilians then because obviously the military won't be using for deescalation purposes.  In modern Krav the most common position is semi passive where your hands are up almost like in surrender as you try to talk down your attacker but your ready to strike from that position. But in the military in most situations where you need to defend yourself you won't be putting your hands up trying to talk your way out because most people attacking a soldier on the battlefield will straight up be trying to kill you. For civilians that's not as common it's more drunk idiots or guys trying to take your phone or stuff like that


How was the Israeli army “not just regular guys?” Everyone in Israel, men and women, is required to serve in the military. I’m sure there’s some exemptions for mental and physical disability, but everyone I know from Israel says every citizen is required to serve by law. Of course they’re getting physical training/conditioning while they’re serving, but they’re not close to being everyone being in elite physical shape. Unless somehow only the elite ones are taught Krav.


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## punisher73 (Apr 26, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> How was the Israeli army “not just regular guys?” Everyone in Israel, men and women, is required to serve in the military. I’m sure there’s some exemptions for mental and physical disability, but everyone I know from Israel says every citizen is required to serve by law. Of course they’re getting physical training/conditioning while they’re serving, but they’re not close to being everyone being in elite physical shape. Unless somehow only the elite ones are taught Krav.



You are correct, everyone serves in the military.  Imi created Krav Maga and was contracted by the Israeli Defense Force (IDF) to teach it to ALL soldiers.  It was not something only taught to the elite/special forces.

The other factor is that military usage is very different from civilian usage.  In the military what is your primary H2H purpose?  You have some assumptions already going into it for a soldier to be going hands on without a weapon.  1) You were somehow separated from the rest of your guys 2) You somehow lost your rifle, pistol and/or knife.  You are now with an enemy soldier, your job is to kill and incapacitate them as quickly as possible.

The civilian model CAN'T follow this idea, so you are going to have to add a lot more things to it by its very nature to cover more civilian based acts of violence and those unique dynamics.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 26, 2019)

Mikkel said:


> Hey
> 
> I am looking for a martial art that focuses equally much on standing throws/locks, the transition from that to groundwork, and the groundwork itself..
> Reason for this is that i would like to get a better selfdefense in the throws, locks, and groundwork area.
> ...


So, let's start with some vocabulary - not because you need a lesson, but because we need common language...and it's a minefield. When you say "standing throws", that can mean "takedowns" or not, depending who you ask. Most ground-heavy styles have takedowns (go down with the guy), and some have throws (put them down, while you try to remain standing). I like a mix of the two, and many standing-grappling systems lack strong takedowns (like single-leg/double-leg), and some entirely miss training the transition to the ground, should you end up attached to the guy you're throwing (which is a regular thing).

So, probably what you want is a system with solid groundwork, and a good range of standing work. I wouldn't worry too much about standing locks. They're fun, and can be useful, but are less directly applicable  - and less reliable - than locks once the guy's on the ground. So, if you get standing locks, that's cool. If you don't, don't sweat it.

Here's where it gets tricky - this mix can vary by school, as much as by art. If you want a wide range of throws/takedowns, something like Judo is a good bet. You can also get that at the right school with Jujutsu/Aikijujutsu-based grappling, but that can be a crap shoot if you don't know what to look for. Western Wrestling - if you can find classes in that in your area - will likely have a great ground game and solid takedowns, but maybe not many throws (by my definition, above). BJJ will probably have great ground game, but might or might have a limited amount of standing takedowns/throws.


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## oftheherd1 (May 2, 2019)

punisher73 said:


> You are correct, everyone serves in the military.  Imi created Krav Maga and was contracted by the Israeli Defense Force (IDF) to teach it to ALL soldiers.  It was not something only taught to the elite/special forces.
> 
> The other factor is that military usage is very different from civilian usage.  In the military what is your primary H2H purpose?  You have some assumptions already going into it for a soldier to be going hands on without a weapon.  1) You were somehow separated from the rest of your guys 2) You somehow lost your rifle, pistol and/or knife.  You are now with an enemy soldier, your job is to kill and incapacitate them as quickly as possible.
> 
> The civilian model CAN'T follow this idea, so you are going to have to add a lot more things to it by its very nature to cover more civilian based acts of violence and those unique dynamics.



Kind of sounds like Hapkido.  Some things taught will kill, most others cause intense pain or damage to the opponent, or usually both.  Whichever way, the opponent will be unable to harm the practitioner.


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## drop bear (May 2, 2019)

oftheherd1 said:


> Kind of sounds like Hapkido.  Some things taught will kill, most others cause intense pain or damage to the opponent, or usually both.  Whichever way, the opponent will be unable to harm the practitioner.



Sort of I would have thought the pace you trained at would be the dominant factor.

Bjj has more killin moves than wrestling. But there is such an emphasis on winning position in wrestling that creates that extra anxiety.


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## punisher73 (May 3, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> So, let's start with some vocabulary - not because you need a lesson, but because we need common language...and it's a minefield. When you say "standing throws", that can mean "takedowns" or not, depending who you ask. Most ground-heavy styles have takedowns (go down with the guy), and some have throws (put them down, while you try to remain standing). I like a mix of the two, and many standing-grappling systems lack strong takedowns (like single-leg/double-leg), and some entirely miss training the transition to the ground, should you end up attached to the guy you're throwing (which is a regular thing).
> 
> So, probably what you want is a system with solid groundwork, and a good range of standing work. I wouldn't worry too much about standing locks. They're fun, and can be useful, but are less directly applicable  - and less reliable - than locks once the guy's on the ground. So, if you get standing locks, that's cool. If you don't, don't sweat it.
> 
> Here's where it gets tricky - this mix can vary by school, as much as by art. If you want a wide range of throws/takedowns, something like Judo is a good bet. You can also get that at the right school with Jujutsu/Aikijujutsu-based grappling, but that can be a crap shoot if you don't know what to look for. Western Wrestling - if you can find classes in that in your area - will likely have a great ground game and solid takedowns, but maybe not many throws (by my definition, above). BJJ will probably have great ground game, but might or might have a limited amount of standing takedowns/throws.



Very good points.  There are many general terms and then more specific terms.  For example, a trip is a takedown, but not necessarily a throw in some styles.  We have two general terms, a "dump" and a "throw".  The dump involves any takedown type manuever in which the person is put straight down to the ground and you maintain contact with them.  A throw, for us, is still taking control of their center and putting them onto the ground, but don't maintain contact.  Some styles may call this a "projection".

But, terms matter and different styles define their terms in different ways sometimes.


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