# Which techniques from Judo fits into Karate?



## jujutsu_indonesia (Nov 28, 2005)

I am wondering about your opinions regarding which Judo/Jujutsu techniques will fits nicely into Karate. 

I think techniques of escaping from ground pins will be very useful for Karateka because Karate itself doesn't have ground escapes. 

Also, I think some Judo techniques can be used as follow up to Karate techniques, such as: Osoto Gari, Kosoto Gari, Morote Gari, Tani Otoshi and Kutchiki Taoshi.

Comments please?


----------



## CrankyDragon (Nov 28, 2005)

Your starting to see the magic of MMA.  MTB with BJJ and Judo yields a well rounded training regement.  

To be effective in any martial art, you need to study and practice it, thus you really need to take the class.  For you, that would mean Karate and Judo at the same time... and yes, it can be done.

One reason I gave up Aikido, besides the specifics of needing to be exactly on target or your technique is wortless IMHO, is there are no techniques for the ground.  Dont get me wrong, theres a ton of PRINCIPLES of Aikido which I retaine and apply to BJJ and Judo to make it more effective.  

These are my opinions, Im sure others will post with various views.  I am not saying you need to study Judo to the black belt level, but far enough to be competent in some take downs and grappling.  From my observations, many if not most true fights end up on the ground.  And 90% of people dont know how to grapple.  Now, if you either end up on the ground, or you take your opponent to the ground, then its your advantage. Again, my opinion.

Many argue about multiple attackers. Well, the ground is not where you want to go with more than 1, so use your standing techniques until you are able to grapple.  Once you blood choke some fool to sleepyville, the others are not so eager to fight you either.

Good luck,
Andrew


----------



## eyebeams (Nov 28, 2005)

jujutsu_indonesia said:
			
		

> I am wondering about your opinions regarding which Judo/Jujutsu techniques will fits nicely into Karate.
> 
> I think techniques of escaping from ground pins will be very useful for Karateka because Karate itself doesn't have ground escapes.
> 
> ...



I personally like working Tani-otoshi because I can get a fair amount of power with it, but I'd say that ashi-guruma, tai-otoshi, koshi-guruma flow particularly well from karate footwork.


----------



## JAMJTX (Nov 28, 2005)

Harai Goshi - take a look at the throw and the motion of your side kick.
Here's a well known video clip: http://www.jimmccoy.com/judo.cfm
Doesn't this motion have a lot in commin with a kick that you know.

It is interesting to study various martial arts - cross training is an old idea, not knew.  But cross training is not required to learn various aspects or ranges of fighting.  Traditonal, non-sport oriented arts are complete.  There is even ground fighting in Karate, atleast in Goju Ryu.  You have to learn the kata and learn how to apply your knowledge in different situations.

I guess most karateka have heard the phrase "a block is a strike".  Add to that,  "a block is strike, a strike is throw" and strikes include kicks, so a kick is a throw.

The main difference between Judo throws and Karate throws in the off-balancing.

One of the myths that of Karate - that Uke means block - causes a lot of misunderstanding.  Uke means reception - think of Ukes' role in your Jujutsu.  Uke is the one "receiving" the technique - or who is "received" by Tori.  Here you see a demonstration of the principle of Ju.  Now apply that to your Karate blocks and "receive" uke.  Here you see the JU of Goju Ryu as well as the JU aspects of other Karate styles.  

Look for the commonalities in other arts as well as those ideas that are not just common but similar in motion.  Then look at your karate kata and see how you can work the other arts into your kata.  The chances are you will find every Aikido, Jujutsu or Judo technique that you know will be applicable some where in your karate kata.

Your home work for today is a simple assignment.  Find one of your Karate kata that has Seo Nage in it.  You will likely find it is a kata that you learned as white/yellow belt but went on to a new kata instead of learning this one thoroughly.


----------



## kempo-vjj (Nov 28, 2005)

I think the answer is all or most. The ones you listed above we do. Our school is a blend of Shorin-ryu kempo and Vee-arnis jujitsu. So far we go block-strike-strike-strike-throw-submit or strike some more maybe. All about where your at. Its all about your awareness of your body position at the time, insert throw where applies. The other week were doing some American Kenpo techniques, none of them included throws that we did, but at this certain point I was like, I've been here before, "hey", I asked my instructor"couldnt you do a reverse wrist throw from here"? He smiled and said "sure why not. Learn the techniques then make them your own". Awww Im learning. Putting two and two together in training is a great moment.


----------



## arnisador (Nov 28, 2005)

kempo-vjj said:
			
		

> I think the answer is all or most.


 
I agree. Judo and Karate complement one another very well. You can use Karate techniques and if your opponent gets too close or gets ahold of you in a way that limits your strikes, you can switch! I can see just about any Judo technique fitting well. Sacrifice techniques may not fit with the Karate philosophy of fighting, but would work as a Judo technique if and when needed.


----------



## CrankyDragon (Nov 28, 2005)

kempo-vjj said:
			
		

> So far we go block-strike-strike-strike-throw-submit or strike some more maybe.


Now thats MY kind of martial art!


----------



## jujutsu_indonesia (Nov 30, 2005)

JAMJTX said:
			
		

> Your home work for today is a simple assignment. Find one of your Karate kata that has Seo Nage in it. You will likely find it is a kata that you learned as white/yellow belt but went on to a new kata instead of learning this one thoroughly.


 
Ehm... I guess the sequence of techniques near the end of Pinan Godan (before the two swastika posture) could be interpreted as a shoulder throw? I was told that if we jump in a Kata, it doesn't always means a jump, it could also means our opponent's body getting thrown.. 

What do you think Jim san?


----------



## jujutsu_indonesia (Nov 30, 2005)

BTW I am so very happy with the helpful answers I receive from all my friends in MartialTalk. Now I understand why sensei insists that all his Karate students should learn some Jujutsu and/or Sambo, and that all his Jujutsu students must learn some Karate   The arts complements each other very much 

Again, thank you all!

Quick Question: I know that the lying-on-the-ground kick of Kata Unsu can also be used as a leg scissor. Is there any other use of it (other than a kick/leg scissor)??


----------



## Makalakumu (Nov 30, 2005)

JAMJTX said:
			
		

> Harai Goshi - take a look at the throw and the motion of your side kick.
> 
> Here's a well known video clip: http://www.jimmccoy.com/judo.cfm
> Doesn't this motion have a lot in commin with a kick that you know.


 
This application is all over the pyung ahn and bassai katas.  Every karateka should know this throw if one practices those forms.  Variations of this through are important too.  



> It is interesting to study various martial arts - cross training is an old idea, not knew. But cross training is not required to learn various aspects or ranges of fighting. Traditonal, non-sport oriented arts are complete. There is even ground fighting in Karate, atleast in Goju Ryu. You have to learn the kata and learn how to apply your knowledge in different situations.


 
This is absolutely correct for any system that uses the traditional okinawan kata.  The throwing, the joint locks and the groundwork are all part of the tuite inherit to those forms.  

All in all, I think practicing jujutsu and karate together is a good idea.  The techniques in jujutsu give one a focused session in tuite.



> I guess most karateka have heard the phrase "a block is a strike". Add to that, "a block is strike, a strike is throw" and strikes include kicks, so a kick is a throw.


 
Very nicely put.  



> The main difference between Judo throws and Karate throws in the off-balancing.


 
I would agree, the kazushi is different and I think that is because judo is a sport and things start from the referees position.  In karate, a throw may begin from a variety of situations so one learns how to kazushi someone from a variety of situations.



> One of the myths that of Karate - that Uke means block - causes a lot of misunderstanding. Uke means reception - think of Ukes' role in your Jujutsu. Uke is the one "receiving" the technique - or who is "received" by Tori. Here you see a demonstration of the principle of Ju. Now apply that to your Karate blocks and "receive" uke. Here you see the JU of Goju Ryu as well as the JU aspects of other Karate styles.


 
This is very deep and very true also.  All of the so called blocking techniques are just recieving force and all of the "striking" techniques are issuing it.



> Look for the commonalities in other arts as well as those ideas that are not just common but similar in motion. Then look at your karate kata and see how you can work the other arts into your kata. The chances are you will find every Aikido, Jujutsu or Judo technique that you know will be applicable some where in your karate kata.


 
However, in many cases, I do not think that it is there on purpose in forms that were created away from traditional sources.  New TKD forms come to mind as an example.  Okinawan and some chinese forms were designed with tuite in mind.



> Your home work for today is a simple assignment. Find one of your Karate kata that has Seo Nage in it. You will likely find it is a kata that you learned as white/yellow belt but went on to a new kata instead of learning this one thoroughly.


 
Gi Cho Hyung Ee Boo.  Basic form number two.  The three quarter turn from "high block" to "low block".

Here is another thing to work with...where ever one sees a front kick in a form, think Soto Gama.


----------



## jujutsu_indonesia (Dec 15, 2005)

I have another good combination.. Nidan geri. First throw a low kick to the groin of opponent. He will instinctively block low, leaving his upper body open for counters. Immediately grab his collars and perform tomoenage. The whole sequence are done like doing Nidan geri. Anybody ever tried that out?


----------



## bignick (Dec 15, 2005)

The only problem I see with that is if you leave your foot there.  He's got plenty of time to grab it while you're trying to grab the collar and exectue the throw.  If you do throw the kick and recover before going for tomoe nage you may have just focused attention on that area and when the foot comes back up he may be able to block the throw...

Just off the top of my head...I'll try to play with this one a little...


----------



## Sensei Paul Hart (Dec 16, 2005)

I am kind of curious about this whole idea. What Judo techniques would work well in Karate. How about the ones already there? Karate, itself is from the same lineage as Daito Ryu via Minamoto Bujutsu. The Minamotos were known to be great Archers and great Taijutsu skills which included throws. There was not a lot of wrestling type techniques as a warrior in battle may not fare to well if he went to the ground with othrs around who had swords, spears and other weapons of war. The techniques in traditional Karate were to allow you to get up on your feet at the conclusion and this was usually verily quick after you were on the ground. 

Some will say these techniques are lost, but I assure you if you search them out you will find that Torite is still a very valid part of Karate. I think that maybe some of Taika Oyata's guys put out a video on it. Not real sure on that but something you could look into.


----------



## tshadowchaser (Dec 16, 2005)

Simple answee  All Do if you can make them work


----------



## arnisador (Dec 16, 2005)

Sensei Paul Hart said:
			
		

> Karate, itself is from the same lineage as Daito Ryu via Minamoto Bujutsu.



Surely most styles of Karate do not have Jujutsu in their backgrounds?


----------



## Sensei Paul Hart (Dec 17, 2005)

Actually, all Shorin does. Minamoto Tametomo lost to the Tiara. Some say that because he was a great warrior and fought with great heart the Tiara allowed him to live but banished him to Oshima Island. After a short time he made his way to Okinawa. While there he met up with Ozato Aji, the ruler of Urazoe castle. He married Ozato Aji's daughter and they bore a son. His name was Shunten.

After a while on Oki, Tametome decided the peaceful Oki life was not to his liking. He left with many promises to return. His wife, being a strong willed woman, returned to the port he left from Daily. This port is now called Machimoto, which means the waiting port. 

When Tametomo left he assigned guardians for his wife and son. This was the job given to Ushigimina. He would have assured that Shunten would have a proper Martial upbringing being in the Minamoto line. 

There is also some proof that other Samurai the joined Tametomo and probably taught the Minamoto Bujutsu to these who sided with them.

To simplify this post, the Minamoto line, through Shunten ended up becoming the Motobu generations later. The Motobu we know taught the Oki Royal families and their protectors. It is through this that we get Motobu Ryu Udundi. This was an art that was taught to Bushi Matsumura, and some proof exists that Tode Sakugawa also knew this art. Matsumura after returning from his Martial studies in China added this with his knowledge of the Lohan arts to form the Shuri lineage of Karate.

So the answer is yes, all styles that get their origin from the Shuri/Shorin lineage has as its forerunner Bujutsu which in the Minamoto line contained Aikijutsu.


----------



## Makalakumu (Dec 17, 2005)

Sensei Paul Hart said:
			
		

> So the answer is yes, all styles that get thier origin from the Shuri/Shorin lineage has as its forerunner Bujutsu which in the Minamoto line contained Aikijutsu.


 
Every once in a while a post comes along and grants a reader an epiphany.  I've often wondered why my aikido, jujutsu and karate training all seemed to share so much in common.  I always thought that it was because we shared a common medium...the human body.  I did not think that one would actually be able to explain the similarities by showing an actual importation/exportation of knowledge.  

Thank you for this information

:asian: 

upnorthkyosa


----------



## jujutsu_indonesia (Dec 17, 2005)

bignick said:
			
		

> The only problem I see with that is if you leave your foot there. He's got plenty of time to grab it while you're trying to grab the collar and exectue the throw....


 
Then I will execute a two-footed Tomoenage. 

Well it's a bit hard to describe in words.. let me make a clip of it and get back to you.


----------



## arnisador (Dec 17, 2005)

Sensei Paul Hart said:
			
		

> Actually, all Shorin does.



I don't think this is a widely accepted theory...but I could be wrong. I'll do more digging!


----------



## Sensei Paul Hart (Dec 17, 2005)

Not theory, truth. go outside of the Martial arts history and look at Japanese and Okinawa history that is written. Look at Toritomo Minamoto and follow it back. It will take you some years, I have been researching this for about the last 15 or so, I still uncover things I didn't know or that I wasn't taught be Sensei. It is a long journey when it comes to finding mostly unpublished history but the stuff does exist. Like the changes made in karate after Itosu took over or after it was given to the Japanese. I love quoting from Kenwa Mabuni's 1939 book Karatedo nyumon about "the karate that was introduced to Tokyo is actually a single part of a larger whole."


----------



## Makalakumu (Dec 17, 2005)

Sensei Paul Hart said:
			
		

> I love quoting from Kenwa Mabuni's 1939 book Karatedo nyumon about "the karate that was introduced to Tokyo is actually a single part of a larger whole."


 
What would be some of the other parts of the larger whole, sir?

:asian: 

upnorthkyosa


----------



## Sensei Paul Hart (Dec 17, 2005)

I can only give you my opinion based on what I was taught. Let's first look at Japanese Karate and ask what does it not have that most Okinawan systems have, once again I am coming from the Shuri reference as I have only a little training in the Naha line.

Torite, little joint locking skills are taught in Japanese Karate. 

Kyusho, almost no vital point striking or manipulation is taught in the Japanese version of Karate.

Dachi, it is widely known that stances were modified or left out so that the Japanese could use what they were use to, in other words, sword stances.

Power generation techniques, here I am getting into some of the higher level stuff, but a lot of the power generation of old Karate has been removed. Most Japanese styles of Karate are "power" karate. That utilize muscular strength. 

Weapons, this subject is to long to list. Go to my site and see the weapons that are listed. These are Okinawan taught weapons from the old China/Tang Hand lineage. Watch a video with Uehara and notice that among his weapons there seems to be a lot of chinese weapons. Would make sense as China, at least in part, contributed a great deal to Karate.

Something you may be interested in, did you know that Okinawa Te has a version of Kali? It is called a Tanbo in the Japanese fighting arts and two are Nitanbo. In the Old Ways the weapon is still taught, matter of fact it is one of the first weapons taught.

If you would like to know more I encourage you to study the Old Ways. There are some resources out there. Any of the Choyu motobu lineage stuff and even some of Taika Oyata's stuff may give you some insight into the answer to your question. If you learn more than I have about this please let me know as I will become your student. This has only scratched the surface, however.


----------



## Makalakumu (Dec 17, 2005)

Sensei Paul Hart said:
			
		

> I can only give you my opinion based on what I was taught. Let's first look at Japanese Karate and ask what does it not have that most Okinawan systems have, once again I am coming from the Shuri reference as I have only a little training in the Naha line.


 
The only Okinawan Karate we have in my geographic region is Uechi Ryu and I have heard that it is of the Naha line and very different from the karate that I practice.  Although it is different, would studying it help me better understand the kata that I am practicing...pinan 1-5, naihanchi 1-3, passai sho and dai, chinto, rohai, etc...



> Torite, little joint locking skills are taught in Japanese Karate.
> 
> Kyusho, almost no vital point striking or manipulation is taught in the Japanese version of Karate.


 
I've been able to peice together some stuff from what my teacher learned, jujutsu, and kempo.  However, I know that my knowledge is incomplete on these topics.  If finding a dojo that teaches this stuff is not an option, what would you recommend?



> Dachi, it is widely known that stances were modified or left out so that the Japanese could use what they were use to, in other words, sword stances.


 
Could you elaborate on the differences?



> Power generation techniques, here I am getting into some of the higher level stuff, but a lot of the power generation of old Karate has been removed. Most Japanese styles of Karate are "power" karate. That utilize muscular strength.


 
Could you elaborate here, also?



> Weapons, this subject is to long to list. Go to my site and see the weapons that are listed. These are Okinawan taught weapons from the old China/Tang Hand lineage. Watch a video with Uehara and notice that among his weapons there seems to be a lot of chinese weapons. Would make sense as China, at least in part, contributed a great deal to Karate.


 
Tang Soo Do does very little kobudo.  We learn stick, knife, and cane.  This stuff came from outside the system.



> Something you may be interested in, did you know that Okinawa Te has a version of Kali? It is called a Tanbo in the Japanese fighting arts and two are Nitanbo. In the Old Ways the weapon is still taught, matter of fact it is one of the first weapons taught.


 
There is a large FMA community on Martial Talk that will be very interested in this.  How close is tanbo and nitanbo to Kali?



> If you would like to know more I encourage you to study the Old Ways. There are some resources out there. Any of the Choyu motobu lineage stuff and even some of Taika Oyata's stuff may give you some insight into the answer to your question. If you learn more than I have about this please let me know as I will become your student. This has only scratched the surface, however.


 
I do the best I can due to circumstance.  Hopefully, I'll be able to find information and maintain a degree of integrity.  Thanks for your anwers thus far...

:asian: 

upnorthkyosa


----------



## Sensei Paul Hart (Dec 17, 2005)

It is very simular to FMA, matter of fact it is accepted that it was probably adapted from a group from that island as there was many from all over that ported in okinawa. 

To teach you the differences in the stances it would take a book. Same for the power generation techniques. I know as I have been working on the book for a few years. It is much easier and more benificial to show you than try to tell you. Where are you located and maybe I can make a trip to see you one day.

If you are searching for good knowledge I would sugest joining a Traditional karate group or a group that allows cross training. Here I will suggest the ISOK or my Matsumura Shorin Ryu Karate Hozon Kai, or you could get great knowledge from Oyata's group as well. Lastly make friends that you can call and BS about Karate. I know lots of guys that have influenced me toreserch things I always thought were true based on the questions they asked.


----------



## arnisador (Dec 17, 2005)

Uechi-ryu is quite different from other forms of Karate. It's very interesting, but _very _Chinese in flavour.


----------



## Makalakumu (Dec 17, 2005)

Sensei Paul Hart said:
			
		

> Where are you located and maybe I can make a trip to see you one day.


 
I'm from Superior, Wisconsin...the land of the ice and snow...and I'd be happy to host you at my home and at my dojo.

:asian: 

upnorthkyosa


----------



## jujutsu_indonesia (Dec 18, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> Uechi-ryu is quite different from other forms of Karate. It's very interesting, but _very _Chinese in flavour.


 
Does Uechi has throws and joint locks? Is there any Judo techniques that works well with the Uechi style? I know their main fighting stance is the Sanchin with open hands up front, this is a good stance to enter grappling range, am I right?


----------



## arnisador (Dec 18, 2005)

It's grappling in the Okinawan sense--joint locks more than body throws. But as it's a relatively close-in style, I imagine Judo would fit well with it.


----------



## Eric Daniel (Dec 19, 2005)

jujutsu_indonesia said:
			
		

> I am wondering about your opinions regarding which Judo/Jujutsu techniques will fits nicely into Karate.
> 
> I think techniques of escaping from ground pins will be very useful for Karateka because Karate itself doesn't have ground escapes.
> 
> ...


I think that some of the throws from judo can be incorporated into Karate. I heard that the founder of shotokan Karate (Gichin Funakoshi) had some throws in his curriculum but  I am not totaly sure about that.


----------



## jujutsu_indonesia (Dec 19, 2005)

Eric Daniel said:
			
		

> I think that some of the throws from judo can be incorporated into Karate. I heard that the founder of shotokan Karate (Gichin Funakoshi) had some throws in his curriculum but I am not totaly sure about that.


 
Yup, he sure has. I think those are taught in the Shotokai group (not sure about the JKA group). I think the description of the throws are in one of Funakoshi san's book. If my memory is correct, it includes Byobudodaoshi, Takiotoshi, Sakatsuchi, Tsubamegaeshi and some other throws.

I think sensei has the scans from the book. Want me to post it here?


----------



## Eric Daniel (Dec 19, 2005)

Yes please if that is all right with everyone else.


----------



## jujutsu_indonesia (Dec 20, 2005)

jujutsu_indonesia said:
			
		

> Then I will execute a two-footed Tomoenage.
> 
> Well it's a bit hard to describe in words.. let me make a clip of it and get back to you.


 
Try this www.geocities.com/wadokai_indonesia/2_footed_tomoe_small.zip


----------



## jujutsu_indonesia (Dec 20, 2005)

Eric Daniel said:
			
		

> Yes please if that is all right with everyone else.


 
Ok, hang on..


----------



## jujutsu_indonesia (Dec 26, 2005)

I have found the scans from Funakoshi sensei's book which shows the throws. It's from Karatedo Kyohan. Anybody interested please email me jujutsu_indonesia@yahoo.com


----------



## Autocrat (Dec 28, 2005)

Glad to see that others recognise that "most" martial arts are self contained.

If you look back at the origins of what we call the different MA's, and then the various styles within... you'll see dilution/specialisation/detraction/focus..... these are both good and bad for the arts/styles and their practioners!

Karate has almost all (if not all) the throws seen in the arts of Jiujitsu/Aikido/Judo (same family)..... then again, the same techniques can be seen muay thai, teakwondo etc.....

All different branches from the same tree!

All this talk about MMA is great.... yet in most of our training, we already have the moves there  (even in british boxing, if you look back in time, there are certain moves no longer allowed, such as head buts, low kicks, elbow strikes and even some basic throws!).

Just think of it this way.... how long is your training session?
how much do you cover?
now try to think how much longer it will take you if you have to include the various "moves groups" ?  Arm strikes/Leg Strikes/Throws/Grappling/Pressure points/Evasion/Defence.... now consider applying the various techniques to those groups, Snap/Thrust/Whip/Heavy Hand/Wave Form/Coil etc.....
You'd have to train four times a week @ 2 hours per session, just to get "most" of the basic..... and you'd probably have to wait a year before each grade!

So, my recomendation is this.... find a local club or two that practices a different art.... pop in and have a quiet word, explain that you are interested int training up on the things you feel your current style lacks, and wish to partake of their training.  Any decent club will oblige.  Forget grading, just concentrate on practicing the various bits you don't get the time/opportunity to at your regular club.


----------



## Cirdan (Feb 3, 2006)

Some ju jutsu clubs have special classes that focus on throws (and other ones for ground work etc). These are great if you are after picking up some skill in that particular area.

Haven`t trained Ju jutsu very long, but my personal favorite is delivering an uraken uchi at my opponent`s head and immediatly attemt o uchi gari (breaking balance by pushing his neck instead of the shoulder)


----------

