# Good day at the gym...finished up on the bag!



## skyeisonfire (Sep 30, 2019)

I had a good day doing chest/back workout at the gym.  I decided to sweat it out on the bag at home.  It has been a while since I used my bag.  I could only put in 25% effort both because my back is still healing and the bag makes too much commotion and I don't want the upstairs neighbors to complain.  all-in-all, I had a good time back on the bag.  Wish I could go all out though.  But, in time.  The bag work out felt good tough.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 30, 2019)

skyeisonfire said:


> I had a good day doing chest/back workout at the gym.  I decided to sweat it out on the bag at home.  It has been a while since I used my bag.  I could only put in 25% effort both because my back is still healing and the bag makes too much commotion and I don't want the upstairs neighbors to complain.  all-in-all, I had a good time back on the bag.  Wish I could go all out though.  But, in time.  The bag work out felt good tough.


Thumbs up for hitting the bag without gloves.  I don't see that too often these days.
Thumbs up and respects for the uppercuts on the bag.  That's probably the most difficult punch to do on a bag (without gloves).


----------



## skyeisonfire (Sep 30, 2019)

JowGaWolf said:


> Thumbs up for hitting the bag without gloves.  I don't see that too often these days.
> Thumbs up and respects for the uppercuts on the bag.  That's probably the most difficult punch to do on a bag (without gloves).



Thank you!  My first WC teacher always stressed the importance of hand/body conditioning.  Besides, I'm more likely to carry a handgun around than a set of boxing gloves lol.

Yeah, the uppercut is difficult because the bag lacks a jawline hehe!


----------



## Xue Sheng (Sep 30, 2019)

JowGaWolf said:


> Thumbs up for hitting the bag without gloves.  I don't see that too often these days.
> Thumbs up and respects for the uppercuts on the bag.  That's probably the most difficult punch to do on a bag (without gloves).



You know, my entire life in MA I never used gloves on a bag, Had some folks talk me into getting a pair of MMA fingerless gloves, so I worked with those briefly and my knuckles were hurting a lot. Then one day not to long ago, when I started training JKD, briefly, for the second time. I was convinced by a few people that I needed to use boxing gloves to train, so I got a pair and started training. And not to long after that I hurt my wrist because the angles were all wrong do to extension the gloves gave my fist. 

I went back to training without gloves


----------



## skyeisonfire (Sep 30, 2019)

Xue Sheng said:


> You know, my entire life in MA I never used gloves on a bag, Had some folks talk me into getting a pair of MMA fingerless gloves, so I worked with those briefly and my knuckles were hurting a lot. Then one day not to long ago, when I started training JKD, briefly, for the second time. I was convinced by a few people that I needed to use boxing gloves to train, so I got a pair and started training. And not to long after that I hurt my wrist because the angles were all wrong do to extension the gloves gave my fist.
> 
> I went back to training without gloves



Yeah, gloves are too restricting.  One important thing is if you were trained in WC, lop sau and other drills, your hands need the ability to grasps the opponent's arms briefly enough to transition to another position.  It's just weird for me to strike with gloves.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Sep 30, 2019)

skyeisonfire said:


> Yeah, gloves are too restricting.  One important thing is if you were trained in WC, lop sau and other drills, your hands need the ability to grasps the opponent's arms briefly enough to transition to another position.  It's just weird for me to strike with gloves.



Train just abut any traditional Chinese martial art you need to be able to grasp the opponent. And when I started using a heavy bag, bag in the stone age, I was training Japanese Jujutsu so grabbing someone was necessary, so gloves where never even a thought. But then, way back then I did not know any MAists that used glove on a heavy bag


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 30, 2019)

Xue Sheng said:


> Train just abut any traditional Chinese martial art you need to be able to grasp the opponent. And when I started using a heavy bag, bag in the stone age, I was training Japanese Jujutsu so grabbing someone was necessary, so gloves where never even a thought. But then, way back then I did not know any MAists that used glove on a heavy bag


My first Jow Ga class where I live now was a shocked to me.  I went up to the heavy bag to get a little punching workout after the class.  The other students said "Hey you need gloves so you won't hurt your hand."  I was shocked because in my previous school we always were taught to not use gloves for the heavy bag.  I just thought that was the norm, for martial arts.  Then I learned the truth lol.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Sep 30, 2019)

JowGaWolf said:


> My first Jow Ga class where I live now was a shocked to me.  I went up to the heavy bag to get a little punching workout after the class.  The other students said "Hey you need gloves so you won't hurt your hand."  I was shocked because in my previous school we always were taught to not use gloves for the heavy bag.  I just thought that was the norm, for martial arts.  Then I learned the truth lol.



In the early 70s and even into the late 70s it was the norm. My first TKD class was in about 1976, Mr Kim had a heavy bag, we punched and kicked it a lot.... there were not any gloves at all in the school and no one used them either. Even my first shifu in 1991, we were hitting striking pads and there was no mention by him of gloves of any sort. However, it was there I first heard of MAist using gloves, there were some TKD folks and a couple American Kenpo folks in the class who used gloves in their styles. All I heard in my head when I found this out was Mr Kim, when asked about protective gear...first he laughed and then said "There is no padding in a fight"


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 30, 2019)

Xue Sheng said:


> "There is no padding in a fight"


  I wonder what memorable comments will come out of the mouths of the next generation of teachers.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Sep 30, 2019)

JowGaWolf said:


> I wonder what memorable comments will come out of the mouths of the next generation of teachers.



Could be interesting....or disappointing


and at this point @skyeisonfire is thinking.... what a couple of old MA Fogies


----------



## skyeisonfire (Sep 30, 2019)

Xue Sheng said:


> Could be interesting....or disappointing
> 
> 
> and at this point @skyeisonfire is thinking.... what a couple of old MA Fogies


Haha!  I'm not a spring chicken myself!


----------



## skyeisonfire (Sep 30, 2019)

I've heard so many comments from people "you gonna break your hands"  sorry, you punch enough hard things for a long time, your bones will adjust.  If you punch walls and other hard objects, then someone's jaw won't be an issue.  I've had other MA people keep telling me I'm punching wrong and will hurt myself.  In WC, we were taught to strike with the bottom 3 knuckles by punching wall bags for many, many hours.  I adapted by punching flat with the surface I'm striking with all my knuckles.  Been doing it that way for 3 years.  My knuckles will be bloodied long before I hurt the bones striking the face.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Oct 1, 2019)

I use to hit punch walls for training when I trained Long Fist

Actually I started having some issues with my hands several years ago, then I trained the Chinese Police version of Sanda for a bit. Training striking was all palm strikes and hitting trees and walls. I am not recommending this as a way to deal with stiffness in the hands, but hitting the trees really fixed my issues in my hands. Another interesting note, we hit hard, but there was a specific sound you were listening for. If you heard that sound, you never hurt your hand.


----------



## skyeisonfire (Oct 1, 2019)

Xue Sheng said:


> I use to hit punch walls for training when I trained Long Fist
> 
> Actually I started having some issues with my hands several years ago, then I trained the Chinese Police version of Sanda for a bit. Training striking was all palm strikes and hitting trees and walls. I am not recommending this as a way to deal with stiffness in the hands, but hitting the trees really fixed my issues in my hands. Another interesting note, we hit hard, but there was a specific sound you were listening for. If you heard that sound, you never hurt your hand.



Depending on what I'm hitting, is the amount of force to apply.  I try not hitting harder than what I feel is necessary to avoid injuries (been injured more times than I dreamed since restarting MA).  Same for if I was going to strike another human being in the face, I would have to judge how much force is necessary and why I'm striking that person i.e. threat level.  

My knuckles are conditioned enough to put a hurting on someone  without hurting me.  Not trying to be boastful, but this is what I'm training for every time.  That's why I've adopted to a simple mindset when it comes to MA.  I train to come in hard and fast and end the threat as soon as possible.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 1, 2019)

skyeisonfire said:


> Depending on what I'm hitting, is the amount of force to apply.  I try not hitting harder than what I feel is necessary to avoid injuries (been injured more times than I dreamed since restarting MA).  Same for if I was going to strike another human being in the face, I would have to judge how much force is necessary and why I'm striking that person i.e. threat level.
> 
> My knuckles are conditioned enough to put a hurting on someone  without hurting me.  Not trying to be boastful, but this is what I'm training for every time.  That's why I've adopted to a simple mindset when it comes to MA.  I train to come in hard and fast and end the threat as soon as possible.


My approach is similar.  I use different parts of my fist to strike different areas of the head.  The skull isn't a big issue for me.  A change of striking service to me is like a 3-6 degree change in the angle of my fist.  Targeted punches (specific areas on the head) reduced the risk of me injuring myself.

I'm always puzzled when I hear MA artists say.  "Don't hit the head with your fist because you may hit the forehead".   Then I think.. "Why would I punch someone in the forehead?"  These guys have 30 + years of martial arts experience and can't target a punch?  I wonder if training with gloves on is the reason why they can't target anything.  They have gloves and think Yep. just hit anywhere on the head.


----------



## Martial D (Oct 2, 2019)

skyeisonfire said:


> Depending on what I'm hitting, is the amount of force to apply.  I try not hitting harder than what I feel is necessary to avoid injuries (been injured more times than I dreamed since restarting MA).  Same for if I was going to strike another human being in the face, I would have to judge how much force is necessary and why I'm striking that person i.e. threat level.
> 
> My knuckles are conditioned enough to put a hurting on someone  without hurting me.  Not trying to be boastful, but this is what I'm training for every time.  That's why I've adopted to a simple mindset when it comes to MA.  I train to come in hard and fast and end the threat as soon as possible.



The hand is essentially a bag of marbles. Very breakable ones. If your hand isn't wrapped, hitting hard targets with a fist is a pretty bad idea.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Oct 2, 2019)

Martial D said:


> The hand is essentially a bag of marbles. Very breakable ones. If your hand isn't wrapped, hitting hard targets with a fist is a pretty bad idea.



So...your not in the gym, the guan, the kwoon, the dojo, and you end up in a fight outside of that environment....do you ask the other guy to wait so you can wrap your hands, or just hit him and break your hand because you never conditioned it to hit without wraps and/or gloves..... just wondering


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (Oct 2, 2019)

Pending what the bag is stuffed with i dont think you can or should go 100% effort on a  heavy bag without gloves on.      At least you will only mess up once if you dont wear gloves as it will immediately hurt which will encourage you not to do it again.    

(in other words, so long as you think about what you are doing, it mitigates some issues)



Xue Sheng said:


> I use to hit punch walls for training when I trained Long Fist


I made that mistake once, never again, pahahah.     (i didnt break anything nor go full power though, but i read something later on and went "yeah id rather not risk it".   I did it like your meant to punch those wall bags or padded walls)


----------



## Xue Sheng (Oct 2, 2019)

Rat said:


> Pending what the bag is stuffed with i dont think you can or should go 100% effort on a  heavy bag without gloves on.      At least you will only mess up once if you dont wear gloves as it will immediately hurt which will encourage you not to do it again.
> 
> (in other words, so long as you think about what you are doing, it mitigates some issues)
> 
> ...



You don't start at full power. You train, you condition and you build up, without wraps and/or gloves. Use to be required to palm strike trees and walls training sanda, without gloves. never hurt my hands, or wrists this way and as a matter of fact when I started training sanda it actually made my hands and wrists feel better, but I had a teacher that trained me how to do it. But then I have had many teachers over the years that trained me how to train striking properly. The absolute only time I have hurt my hands or wrist was wearing gloves using a heavy bad. Gloves and wraps were not even part of the MA equation in the early 70s, my old TKD teacher laughed at the idea, and I never heard gloves seriously mentioned in an MA class until the early 90s, and even then we did not go ot and buy them

Now I am old, crotchety and stuck in my ways, and if someone wants to wrap and glove up go for it, but I still maintain, in this world where everyone and their brother is saying MA doesn't really work (think about that one for a minute), do you ask the other guy that just attacked you to give you a minute while you wrap your hands and put on gloves, or since you never trained without them, or do you put all you have into that first punch, break your hand and hope you only needed to hit him once.


----------



## Martial D (Oct 2, 2019)

Xue Sheng said:


> So...your not in the gym, the guan, the kwoon, the dojo, and you end up in a fight outside of that environment....do you ask the other guy to wait so you can wrap your hands, or just hit him and break your hand because you never conditioned it to hit without wraps and/or gloves..... just wondering


For starters, there are many weapons besides the fist.

Secondly, if you choose to use your fists, it is still a bad idea to aim for hard targets, because the hand is a fragile sack of tiny weak bones.

Hitting trees or walls may condition your skin, nerves, and even thicken up the knuckles from microfractures, but it also causes cumulative damage, with an ever present risk of permanent damage.

Good luck playing the piano when you are 50. I recently saw a documentary about some old-school karate Masters in Okinawa, clubs for hands but not good for much else. Hands mostly fused together from all the fractures.

Hitting bare knuckle with maximum effectiveness without injury is more  a matter of form and technique than surface or impact conditioning, which comes at a greater cost/benifit ratio by hitting softer targets like heavy bags (with or without hand protection) than from bashing your hand on unyielding surfaces.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Oct 2, 2019)

Martial D said:


> For starters, there are many weapons besides the fist.
> 
> Secondly, if you choose to use your fists, it is still a bad idea to aim for hard targets, because the hand is a fragile sack of tiny weak bones.
> 
> ...



Had no problem playing anything when I was 50.....I'm almost 60 and my hands are fine, don't play piano, but ukulele, mandolin and even guitar I can play without issue, and I have been training this way since I was in Junior high school. It is not just pounding away with your fists, it is knowing how to hit with your fists.

Strangely enough, I have arthritis in my knees and hips, but my hands are just fine...


----------



## jobo (Oct 2, 2019)

Xue Sheng said:


> So...your not in the gym, the guan, the kwoon, the dojo, and you end up in a fight outside of that environment....do you ask the other guy to wait so you can wrap your hands, or just hit him and break your hand because you never conditioned it to hit without wraps and/or gloves..... just wondering


if you hit them hard enough to damage your hand they wont be I  a position to come back at you and even if they do manage to stager on a bit you've still got another hand. iv3 hit a lot of people in my life and never ever broke my hand, so either I'm not punching hard enough, but they generally fall over if I hit them clean or it's a lot harder to damage your hand than your making out.

but I've know a good few people who have broke their hand puncsing walls/ refrigerators or other solid objects in a temper, it always seem a particularly stupid thing to d.  I used to throw spinners at the garage door in temper in I broke something on the motorbike, just as childish  but a lot safer for me


----------



## skyeisonfire (Oct 2, 2019)

So, everyone is right to a point.  Using the amount of force neccessary to get the job done is all I'm saying.  That's why we condition ourselves.  If you want to do sport, then wrap your hands.  If you intend to train for the unfortunate day you have to use your fist, then don't choose to condition and 50/50 chance you'll break them anyways.  When I'm training on my little bag, I can go all out.  My body has been conditioned to go against that.  When I train on my target dummy, the pads are really hard and backed up by heavy 2×4 and board loaded with spring resistance.  I can only use 1/3 to 1/2 power or I would really hurt myself.  I trained on wall bags for a few years as well.  I understand what my hands can take and not take by now.  Going at it with full force without understanding your body relative to what you are striking at is a no-no and shouldn't be done. There's a way that I throw my punches, I snap them, but fully control the final contraction  on impact.  There's no blunt force like a battering ram.  It all depends on what you are training for. I'm not trying to get in the ring for the knockout.  My philosophy is more avoidance and my training is for last resort and escape if possible.  If that fails, then maybe I have to bust a knuckle.   Either way, in that situation, you'll have to make a choice pretty quickly.  I'd rather be conditioned.  But hey, I'm not here to convince anyone of anything.  Do it the way you like.  I already know my path.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 2, 2019)

Martial D said:


> The hand is essentially a bag of marbles. Very breakable ones. If your hand isn't wrapped, hitting hard targets with a fist is a pretty bad idea.


The problem isn't hitting hard objects.  The problem is hitting harder than what the fist is conditioned for or hitting with the wrong part of the fist.  I can hammer fist skulls all day long and my hand isn't going to break.  

If you are correctly targeting areas of the head and face then you shouldn't run into too much risk of breaking a hand.  if you are just punching hoping to hit somewhere on the face, then you're asking for a broken hand.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 2, 2019)

Martial D said:


> The hand is essentially a bag of marbles. Very breakable ones. If your hand isn't wrapped, hitting hard targets with a fist is a pretty bad idea.



I'm truly puzzled when people make comments like you did about wrapping hands.  I understand the need when you are wearing big gloves that prevent proper fist structure.  But punching without gloves forces the person to have better structured punches. I've seen more people mess up their wrist than break their hands.   If I had to guess,  that's probably the same reasons people break their hands.  Bad fist structure and hitting harder than what the fist is conditioned for.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 2, 2019)

Rat said:


> Pending what the bag is stuffed with i dont think you can or should go 100% effort on a  heavy bag without gloves on.      At least you will only mess up once if you dont wear gloves as it will immediately hurt which will encourage you not to do it again.
> 
> (in other words, so long as you think about what you are doing, it mitigates some issues)
> 
> ...


You can hurt yourself at 30% power on a heavy bag if you have bad punching technique and structure.  Eventually you'll learn to punch correctly.  Many times people just want to punch hard and skip the part where you learn how to do that without hurting themselves


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 2, 2019)

Martial D said:


> For starters, there are many weapons besides the fist.
> 
> Secondly, if you choose to use your fists, it is still a bad idea to aim for hard targets, because the hand is a fragile sack of tiny weak bones.
> 
> ...


This post makes senses to me.  Hit targets that give vs hitting targets that don't.  I punch walls but only to train fist structure so punches aren't thrown hard. Impact is also less than what is given on a bag.   This allows me better target a specific knuckle.  I punch elevator buttons with my knuckles and not push with my fingers.  I push open doors with my knuckles as well.  

I don't do much hard conditioning where I'm baking my knuckles with alot of force, unless it's against something that gives.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 2, 2019)

skyeisonfire said:


> So, everyone is right to a point.  Using the amount of force neccessary to get the job done is all I'm saying.  That's why we condition ourselves.  If you want to do sport, then wrap your hands.  If you intend to train for the unfortunate day you have to use your fist, then don't choose to condition and 50/50 chance you'll break them anyways.  When I'm training on my little bag, I can go all out.  My body has been conditioned to go against that.  When I train on my target dummy, the pads are really hard and backed up by heavy 2×4 and board loaded with spring resistance.  I can only use 1/3 to 1/2 power or I would really hurt myself.  I trained on wall bags for a few years as well.  I understand what my hands can take and not take by now.  Going at it with full force without understanding your body relative to what you are striking at is a no-no and shouldn't be done. There's a way that I throw my punches, I snap them, but fully control the final contraction  on impact.  There's no blunt force like a battering ram.  It all depends on what you are training for. I'm not trying to get in the ring for the knockout.  My philosophy is more avoidance and my training is for last resort and escape if possible.  If that fails, then maybe I have to bust a knuckle.   Either way, in that situation, you'll have to make a choice pretty quickly.  I'd rather be conditioned.  But hey, I'm not here to convince anyone of anything.  Do it the way you like.  I already know my path.


  I think people assume that they always punch their hardest in a fight.  If I can hit the jaw where it hinges, then I'll try to punch the jaw until it touches the other side.  If I see that elbow, chins,  and foreheads get in the way then I'll dial the power back a little.   I have a good idea of how much power to punch worth only because I've hit hard targets before (that give).


----------



## Martial D (Oct 2, 2019)

JowGaWolf said:


> The problem isn't hitting hard objects.  The problem is hitting harder than what the fist is conditioned for or hitting with the wrong part of the fist.  I can hammer fist skulls all day long and my hand isn't going to break.
> 
> If you are correctly targeting areas of the head and face then you shouldn't run into too much risk of breaking a hand.  if you are just punching hoping to hit somewhere on the face, then you're asking for a broken hand.


Sure if your opponent will be a sport and hold still for you, this shouldn't be a problem.


----------



## Martial D (Oct 2, 2019)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm truly puzzled when people make comments like you did about wrapping hands.  I understand the need when you are wearing big gloves that prevent proper fist structure.  But punching without gloves forces the person to have better structured punches. I've seen more people mess up their wrist than break their hands.   If I had to guess,  that's probably the same reasons people break their hands.  Bad fist structure and hitting harder than what the fist is conditioned for.


There is a reason a metacarpal fracture is colloquially known as a boxers fracture.

And it isn't because they are punching wrong.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 2, 2019)

Martial D said:


> Sure if your opponent will be a sport and hold still for you, this shouldn't be a problem


  It's no problem when they move.  I'm fairly consistent with punching accuracy.  I do a lot of sets-ups vs just trying to hit something. This may look like wide swings but they are very targeted.  If you watch it full screen then you'll see my eyes.  





Here's me helping a student on sparring day with the application of one of our basic punches. There is a slim chance of breaking the hand with this technique.  





I throw jabs too, but I'm picky with jabs as well.  I just don't unleash them and try to overwhelm my opponent with Jabs to the face.  I'll only throw it if I think see an opening or if I know there is an opening. Here's another person I'm training.  He throws similar punches and closes the gap.  He see's that I'm guard my head so he targets the gut.   There's no need to try to punch through my guard in hopes that he might hit the soft part of my face.


----------



## Martial D (Oct 3, 2019)

JowGaWolf said:


> It's no problem when they move.  I'm fairly consistent with punching accuracy.  I do a lot of sets-ups vs just trying to hit something. This may look like wide swings but they are very targeted.  If you watch it full screen then you'll see my eyes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Uhh. I said moves lol. Against a guy that can move his head your punches aren't all going to land at all, much less exactly where you want them to.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 3, 2019)

Martial D said:


> Uhh. I said moves lol. Against a guy that can move his head your punches aren't all going to land at all, much less exactly where you want them to.


If a guy likes to Bob and weave then I'll attack else were.  If the head is moving that much then it's pretty much hoping I can hit the head.  If it gets to that point then you just need go for a less mobile target.  Legs or body.


----------



## Headhunter (Oct 6, 2019)

At the end of it all the hand wrapping it's all preference. You can condition your hands all day and still break or damage them in a fight. I mean I've seen boxers wearing 16 ounce gloves and hand wraps break their hands in fight. It happens so of course you can break it for real no matter how many walls you punch. It's all about preference.

Personally I don't care. In Muay Thai class I'll wrap my hands and put on gloves because that's what's done in thr class. In karate or Krav Maga I'll hit with bare fists because it's what's done. I can totally understand people not wanting to hit bare fist I've had numerous cuts on my knuckles and that seriously screws your training when you can't punch a bag properly because your hand will start bleeding everywhere if you do


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 6, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> I've had numerous cuts on my knuckles and that seriously screws your training when you can't punch a bag properly because your hand will start bleeding everywhere if you do


This was how my first experience was.  Then I learned that I was punching incorrectly.  My fists weren't going directly into the bag.  I was swiping my fists across the bag.  Once I corrected this, no more cut knuckles and I've developed a mean punch


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 6, 2019)

skyeisonfire said:


> Yeah, gloves are too restricting.  One important thing is if you were trained in WC, lop sau and other drills, your hands need the ability to grasps the opponent's arms briefly enough to transition to another position.  It's just weird for me to strike with gloves.


Looked like a good workout.
It is a very different feel when you first put on a set of regulation boxing gloves. If you want to get a hard arm workout put on a 16 ounce pair of gloves and punch the bag for an hour. 
In Kali we used to hold 1-3-5 pound iron balls at shoulder level, drop them and then catch them in the air at about knee level. The goal was to catch them as hard as you could to toughen up your hands and strengthen your grip. I cannot over-exaggerate how well this works.


----------

