# How to handle the parents



## terryl965 (Sep 28, 2009)

Last Saturday I had a group of parents that wanted my blinds closed and I said politely no. Well withen a few minutes they are closing my blinds and I need them open to help drum up business as we all know, well it turned into a ***** feast and me in the middle of it. I have explain and explain but I have these tiny group that all they do is ***** about everything. I believe I need to showw them the door but my better half believes this will hurt the school in the long run.

I just cannot imagine anybody going and doing these things especially after they have been told no by me and explain why. I need alternatives so I can get my point a cross for them. any help will be apprciated.


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## bluekey88 (Sep 28, 2009)

I'll start by saying that if you they asked, you said "no", then going ahead and doing it anyway was  very, very rude.

however, what, specifically was the issue with the blinds.  I get why you want them open (makes sense...otherwise the school might look closed, passerby lookeeloos won't see anything of interest inside).

Why did they want them closed?  Was the light getting in their eyes or something?  

i guess what I'm wondering is if there is some other solution to the issue than closing or not closing the blinds? Something that makes you and them happy.

Peace,
Erik


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## K31 (Sep 28, 2009)

Nice. Did you explain to them that you were trying to teach their kids respect and that their behavior was a poor example?What was their objection to the blinds being open? If it's that it makes their kid self conscious, I'd ask them to consider that you are trying to teach their kid self defense above all and they need to perform that in public when the time comes.


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## terryl965 (Sep 28, 2009)

Eric I have chairs and benches that goes up against the windows for the parents to sit and watch, the few that was sittting next to the window said the sun was beating down on them and remember the only thing is it was the back of there head and shoulders. I told them they could just move down a row and be closer to the front where there was no sun but they wannted to be in the back. I get alot of drive by people on the weekends and need them to see what is going on and at the same time I do not want to loose some people over little things.

My windows have a cover that allows people to see in but it blocks about 60% of the sun from coming in and by the way I have another seating area that is not by any windows, but they just want to sit there and then complain aout it.


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## terryl965 (Sep 28, 2009)

K31 said:


> Nice. Did you explain to them that you were trying to teach their kids respect and that their behavior was a poor example?What was their objection to the blinds being open? If it's that it makes their kid self conscious, I'd ask them to consider that you are trying to teach their kid self defense above all and they need to perform that in public when the time comes.


 
Yes went over everything about the tenets and what we do they just want to sit there adn complain about the sun. My god we live in Texas we always have sun.


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## rmclain (Sep 28, 2009)

If they were in class training with everyone else they probably wouldn't get sun on them.  

R. McLain


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## terryl965 (Sep 28, 2009)

rmclain said:


> If they were in class training with everyone else they probably wouldn't get sun on them.
> 
> R. McLain


 
I have converted 8 of them so far, I will keep after them.


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## bluekey88 (Sep 28, 2009)

Well, then you did the right thing by offering a compromise.  Nothing more I can add....some folks just can't ever be happy.  Get some big silly hats and when the sun gets too hot...let 'em wear those. 

Peace,
Erik


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## CoryKS (Sep 28, 2009)

I understand your concern, but I don't think you will get a lot of sympathy from the parents if you tell them that you're weighing their discomfort against the benefit of drawing potential new customers.  Is it possible to change the configuration of the room so that the benches and chairs are not directly in front of the window?


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## terryl965 (Sep 28, 2009)

CoryKS said:


> I understand your concern, but I don't think you will get a lot of sympathy from the parents if you tell them that you're weighing their discomfort against the benefit of drawing potential new customers. Is it possible to change the configuration of the room so that the benches and chairs are not directly in front of the window?


 
No I have windows across the entire front, I do have benches and chair that are away from the front of the windows but they just want to sit there.


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## NPTKD (Sep 28, 2009)

I go thru this crap all the time! Most of the problem in my school are parents in the waiting area. Why can't I eat a full course meal in here? Why can't my little one walk or stand on your chairs? Why can't we chew gum and stick it under the seat when we are finished? Sorry I spilled coffee all over the floor, but you don't think I should have to clean it up! How come I can't bring all of Billy's action figures and spread them all over the floor so that people can't walk thru and sit down? They move chairs, papers , signs , plants and what ever is in there way. I posted sign after sign after sign..... I really don't understand how you can bring your child to learn respect when you can't show some yourself. I find myself being a total ****head at times to parents. The funny thing is they still come back. It's crazy! Good luck, I haven't found an answer. But you just remember what ever you do, they will all talk **** about it behind your back in the packing lot! I 've went with the advise i got here and kick a few right out the door! The best thing I ever did!


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## NPTKD (Sep 28, 2009)

Oh.... I almost forgot! iT'S HOT IN HERE! I know the air is set for 70% but I'm working up a sweat just watching Billy kicking those paddles!:boing2:


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## shesulsa (Sep 28, 2009)

Remove the blinds completely, Terry.  When you close up shop or want privacy, put a folding screen in front of the window or stand a folding mat up back there. Of course, you'll want to keep any folding screens locked in your office or store room until such time you require them.

Nobody can close blinds that don't exist.  Saves the hassle and the arguments.


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## granfire (Sep 28, 2009)

terryl965 said:


> Last Saturday I had a group of parents that wanted my blinds closed and I said politely no. Well withen a few minutes they are closing my blinds and I need them open to help drum up business as we all know, well it turned into a ***** feast and me in the middle of it. I have explain and explain but I have these tiny group that all they do is ***** about everything. I believe I need to showw them the door but my better half believes this will hurt the school in the long run.
> 
> I just cannot imagine anybody going and doing these things especially after they have been told no by me and explain why. I need alternatives so I can get my point a cross for them. any help will be apprciated.



Touch to advise, when the reasons for complaining are not open.

The deal is, if they do so loud and long enough in the lobby they will 'infect' the other parents. Sometimes you have to throw the bad apples out in order to safe the rest.

and just a little FWIW: in my office nobody draws the blinds but me. I find that an incredible act, really.


We had one parent who would tell all the other parents how we would do things wrong and where to go buy stuff and so on and so forth. he did get a few good talking to's. and eventually he stopped coming in. His girls were the sweetest, but just because they transferred in from another school did not make room for Daddy to flap his gumms! Most parents were not bothered, but heck, considering they assited in teaching (the girls) Daddy had a lot exposure to the parents of the new kids. 

To cut a long story short: If these parents make you dread coming to work, it's time for them to leave. (and there have been many instances, not in Dojangs, but other places of same nature, were the general public aplauded the removal of the trouble making elements from the environment.I mean, there are enough places out there, maybe they need a school that fits their needs better!)


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## ATC (Sep 28, 2009)

shesulsa said:


> Remove the blinds completely....


Yes, yes, and double yes!!!

Then announce durning the end of class that due to a few disrepectful people "that shall remain nameless" the blinds have been removed. Also announce that if the disrepect continues that the parties involved will be asked to leave. Also make sure to acknowledge that this issue is at rest and you will discuss it no futher.

I think your point will be made after this.


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## TKD_Father (Sep 28, 2009)

Interesting way of dealing with customers...


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## CoryKS (Sep 28, 2009)

ATC said:


> Yes, yes, and double yes!!!
> 
> Then announce durning the end of class that due to a few disrepectful people "that shall remain nameless" the blinds have been removed. Also announce that if the disrepect continues that the parties involved will be asked to leave. Also make sure to acknowledge that this issue is at rest and you will discuss it no futher.
> 
> I think your point will be made after this.


 
I can speak only for myself, but if I ever received this sort of response my association with the school would end immediately.  Terry's goal in keeping the blinds open is to _increase_ his client base, you don't do that by antagonizing existing customers.


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## shesulsa (Sep 28, 2009)

ATC said:


> Yes, yes, and double yes!!!
> 
> Then announce durning the end of class that due to a few disrepectful people "that shall remain nameless" the blinds have been removed. Also announce that if the disrepect continues that the parties involved will be asked to leave. Also make sure to acknowledge that this issue is at rest and you will discuss it no futher.
> 
> I think your point will be made after this.



I don't know if I'd go that far.  They are paying your bills but that doesn't give them the right to be blatantly disrespectful.



TKD_Father said:


> Interesting way of dealing with customers...



While one still must be delicate, these parents are interfering with their children's martial arts education by doing what they damn well please.

Terry, you really don't need to - and probably shouldn't - say anything more to them.  Be polite and courteous and just have the blinds removed.

If they ask you about it, just tell them someone broke them opening and shutting them improperly and you won't be replacing them. Smile, and go back to teaching their students or that phone call you have waiting in your office, I'm sure you'll find some reason to excuse yourself before they ask too many questions.


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## Gorilla (Sep 28, 2009)

I am a parent and I have had the unfortunate opportunity to sit in waiting rooms at Dojangs in the past.  The behavior of some parents is very hard to take.  Some parents make the rest of us look bad it is sad.  Not all parents are selfish and rude some of us work with the Masters to get the best experience for all.


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## ATC (Sep 28, 2009)

CoryKS said:


> I can speak only for myself, but if I ever received this sort of response my association with the school would end immediately...


We have kick out students and parents for less. If you are that disrepectful then so be it.


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## shesulsa (Sep 28, 2009)

The only excuse for that would be if someone were ill and couldn't handle the light/heat, and Terry said there are other places to sit that are not in the sun.

I wouldn't ask my son's football coaches to provide me with an umbrella or canopy. Jeez.


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## ATC (Sep 28, 2009)

shesulsa said:


> I don't know if I'd go that far. They are paying your bills but that doesn't give them the right to be blatantly disrespectful.


Sometimes examples have to be made. We use to have a ton of parent issues just like this and more. As soon as we started kicking students and parents out it all stopped. Many came back very apologetic and begging for a second chance.

There was one little girl (about 14 at the time and very good) that was about to test for her black belt. She had been at the school for 5 years. The dad had a falling out with the instructor over nothing his daughter did. Our master instructor banned him from the school and then one week later kicked out his daugher as well. The daughter and the instructor got along very well but because the dad still had to drop off the daughter and still had some dealings with other parents he had to cut ties totally.

At first I thought this way over the top and felt bad for the girl as she had built so many bonds with other students and instructors. One test away from her black belt also made it seem extra harsh.

Now looking back I see the reasoning behind it. It stopped any spread of gossip, true or unture and kept the integraty of the social structure in tack minimizing any further damage possibly stopping greater loss.

It also let parents know that this is not there business and that they do not make or set any rules what so ever.

What happended to the dad and daughter. They come by often wishing to come back. The dad even joined another school and his daughter hates that school, stops by all the time now on her own to just sit and watches classes, 3 years after being kicked out.

But then again the owner is Korean and they can be stuborn, so I'm told. I have yet seen anyone kicked out be let back in. This even includes instructors that have been raised and taught by the owner/GM.


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## ATC (Sep 28, 2009)

TKD_Father said:


> Interesting way of dealing with customers...


Every merchant has the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason. The golden rule is not always applicable.


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## TKD_Father (Sep 28, 2009)

ATC said:


> Every merchant has the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason.



Not true.


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## ATC (Sep 28, 2009)

TKD_Father said:


> Not true.


What's not ture? If I own or run a business I do not have to server anyone if I choose not to. Even under a contract I can still refuse to serve you. I will have to give you your money back or pay you depending on the contract, but I do not have to serve you.


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## CoryKS (Sep 28, 2009)

ATC said:


> What's not ture? If I own or run a business I do not have to server anyone if I choose not to. Even under a contract I can still refuse to serve you. I will have to give you your money back or pay you depending on the contract, but I do not have to serve you.


 
Yes, and if you had so many potential students clamoring to get into your school that you could afford to treat them this way, then you probably wouldn't have had to keep the blinds open in the hope of attracting students in the first place.

Something about flies and honey comes to mind.


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## TKD_Father (Sep 28, 2009)

ATC said:


> What's not ture? If I own or run a business I do not have to server anyone if I choose not to. Even under a contract I can still refuse to serve you. I will have to give you your money back or pay you depending on the contract, but I do not have to serve you.



As to providing a service.



> The Federal Civil Rights Act guarantees all people the right to "full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, and accommodations of any place of public accommodation, without discrimination or segregation on the ground of race, color, religion, or national origin."
> 
> 
> The right of public accommodation is also guaranteed to disabled citizens under the Americans with Disabilities Act, which precludes discrimination by businesses on the basis of disability.



As to a contract. You would have to written into the original document the fact that you can terminate service at any time without any cause. If you simply want to terminate and pay back, that must be in the original document or you would be subject to legal action.


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## KELLYG (Sep 28, 2009)

1.The blinds that I have at home have wands that control the adjustment of the amount of light that is allowed in. These can be removed.  No wand no adjustment no hassle.

 2. Remove the blinds

3. Talk to the people that took it upon themselves to make adjustments in your lighting, knowing beforehand that you wanted them to remain open.

4. Tell them to leave or wait in their cars where they can control their own environment.


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## dortiz (Sep 28, 2009)

"I have yet seen anyone kicked out be let back in. This even includes instructors that have been raised and taught by the owner/GM. "

The way this reads it almost sounds like they get tossed in large numbers??


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## CoryKS (Sep 28, 2009)

dortiz said:


> "I have yet seen anyone kicked out be let back in. This even includes instructors that have been raised and taught by the owner/GM. "
> 
> The way this reads it almost sounds like they get tossed in large numbers??


 

"No martial arts for you!"


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## ATC (Sep 28, 2009)

TKD_Father said:


> As to providing a service.
> 
> The Federal Civil Rights Act guarantees all people the right to "full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, and accommodations of any place of public accommodation, without discrimination or segregation on the ground of race, color, religion, or national origin."


Every prviate merchant has the right to refuse service even on the basis of race if they are so bold.

Country Clubs for example can restrict or accept membership based on any criteria since they are privately funded.

Unless the merchant in question is subsidized with federal or local govt grants or resides on federal or local govt land.



> The right of public accommodation is also guaranteed to disabled citizens under the Americans with Disabilities Act, which precludes discrimination by businesses on the basis of disability.


This only states that I would have to provide access to the dissabled. Example would be a wheelchair ramp into my business. I still can refuse to serve them for any reason.



> As to a contract. You would have to written into the original document the fact that you can terminate service at any time without any cause. If you simply want to terminate and pay back, that must be in the original document or you would be subject to legal action.


I already said that in the case of a contract I would be made to pay or make them whole (give them their money back) but I still can refuse to serve them.


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## ynnad (Sep 28, 2009)

Hmmm...why are there blinds up to begin with? Obviously you realized that the sun was a problem. The parents are just confirming that. I don't think it is out of bounds for them to expect you to use the blinds that are there for a purpose. 

And as far as the idea proposed that you should take them down and tell them the blinds got broke...are you kidding me? Lying over something like this. Stunning.


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## TKD_Father (Sep 28, 2009)

ATC said:


> Every prviate merchant has the right to refuse service even on the basis of race if they are so bold.



Wow, you are really misinformed, or I'm simply not understanding you.




> *Does a Restaurant Have the Unrestricted Right to Refuse Service to Specific Patrons?
> *
> *No! The Civil Rights Act of 1964 explicitly prohibits restaurants from refusing service to patrons on the basis of race, color, religion, or natural origin. In addition, most courts dont allow restaurants to refuse service to patrons based on extremely arbitrary conditions. For example, a person likely cant be refused service due to having aprostedic leg. *
> 
> ...


There's more, I can give you some links to check. Just search for "refusing service" and you'll find plenty.


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## dortiz (Sep 28, 2009)

"Lying over something like this. Stunning. "
I dislike when white lies which preserve folks feelings and calm are thrust in with bad lies. I do believe there is a difference. Anyone with family knows that. Many times we say what is best for our child or our dear loved ones butt. Its just polite. 
Better a white lie than a confrontation in this case.

Dave O.


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## shesulsa (Sep 28, 2009)

ynnad said:


> Hmmm...why are there blinds up to begin with? Obviously you realized that the sun was a problem. The parents are just confirming that. I don't think it is out of bounds for them to expect you to use the blinds that are there for a purpose.
> 
> And as far as the idea proposed that you should take them down and tell them the blinds got broke...are you kidding me? Lying over something like this. Stunning.



Is it?  It is a polite lie offered to avoid further arguments in the lobby. Besides ... the blinds just might get broken in their de-installation. I would have no problem saying this because it would also put the people who closed the blinds in the position of either change or confrontation. If they become confrontational again, then Terry has more fodder for a polite, private conversation with them rather than open scorn.  Another possibility is they will  find someplace else to sit - as Terry requested.  

Walk-by and drive-by business is coveted!



dortiz said:


> "Lying over something like this. Stunning. "
> I dislike when white lies which preserve folks feelings and calm are thrust in with bad lies. I do believe there is a difference. Anyone with family knows that. Many times we say what is best for our child or our dear loved ones butt. Its just polite.
> Better a white lie than a confrontation in this case.
> 
> Dave O.



:asian:


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## ATC (Sep 28, 2009)

dortiz said:


> "I have yet seen anyone kicked out be let back in. This even includes instructors that have been raised and taught by the owner/GM. "
> 
> The way this reads it almost sounds like they get tossed in large numbers??


In the begining when the gossip and parents were out of control they were being tossed in large numbers. 20 parents and students in one shot is a large number. Had to be this way to get a grip on things.

The problem was that the owner moved away to start up a second school. The school was left to be run by the black belts under him. Well they were young adults (18 - 20 years old) and really did not have any experience in running and manageing a business. The owner had to come back and make things right. Lots of people were dismissed, students, parents, and instructors.

Now from time to time there is that rare one that is asked to leave but not so much anymore.

However it happened again to the second school, to a smaller extent when he left again to open a 3rd school.

The original school is doing fine as the owners Nephew is running the school and he is just as strict as his Uncle. However the owner has to spend some time between schools 2 and 3 until those schools are running as he likes.

Only 3 instructors have been let go by the way.


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## ATC (Sep 28, 2009)

TKD_Father said:


> Wow, you are really misinformed, or I'm simply not understanding you.
> 
> *Does a Restaurant Have the Unrestricted Right to Refuse Service to Specific Patrons?
> 
> ...



 
OK you are correct to an extent. However private clubs are still exempt.

*Civil rights act of 1964 Title II*
_Outlawed discrimination in hotels, motels, restaurants, theaters, and all other public accommodations engaged in interstate commerce; exempted private clubs without defining the term "private."_

Most MA studios will fall under the definition of a private club and exempt.


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## Nomad (Sep 28, 2009)

> Quote:
> The Federal Civil Rights Act guarantees all people the right to "full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, and accommodations of any place of public accommodation, without discrimination or segregation on the ground of race, color, religion, or national origin."
> 
> 
> ...



I'm fairly certain these rules are being misapplied in this context; they are to protect against discrimination of protected minorities.  To my knowledge, acting like an a$$ does not fall under these protections.

Most businesses (bars, restaurants, hotels, martial arts schools, etc) will reserve the right to deny service to individuals without having to provide a reason.  If this is shown to have a pattern that falls under the above rules (won't serve homosexuals, for example) then it may be actionable, but I believe the burden of proof tends to lie on the individuals who were denied service.


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## Andy Moynihan (Sep 28, 2009)

Yet one more reason I will *NEVER* open a commercial school and why I don't believe MA schools should be run as a main source of income( yes, i know, i know, for some folks it's all they have, but the way it's been allowed to mutate over the last 20 years is ridiculous).

It is also why , were i in such a position to teach, owing to this, as well as owing to the material and the way i'd teach if I ever did, I wouldn't even *TALK* to a prospective student intil they were, at minumum, 18, more likely 21.


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## Gorilla (Sep 28, 2009)

Martial Arts businesses are run many different ways.  Some cater to the public and are very customer service oriented. Then others are more Martial "Military" Oriented some are Sport schools all very different ways of doing business.  I have seen some schools that are a mix of the 3.  If you are a parent in a school situation that does not fit your needs you should speak to the Master about it and find a mutual solution to your problem.  You should never gossip, undermine, complain publicly or take matters into your own hands.  The Master has a business to run and it is his right to run it as he sees fit.  The success of his business will be the measuring stick for which he is judged not the parent in the waiting room.  Parents stop acting like you own the place.  You have a very important role get with you Master to help define that role but never I repeat never take matters into your own hands.  If you can't find a proper solution then pay your bill and leave!


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## Gordon Nore (Sep 28, 2009)

Gorilla said:


> I am a parent and I have had the unfortunate opportunity to sit in waiting rooms at Dojangs in the past.  The behavior of some parents is very hard to take.  Some parents make the rest of us look bad it is sad.  Not all parents are selfish and rude some of us work with the Masters to get the best experience for all.



Gorilla,

I think both your posts to this thread have been right on point. I think we live in an era of customer satisfaction run amok. People have a perception that because they've paid for a service, they can make all sorts of demands on how the service is delivered.

Not all services are equal. If one pays for a taxi or a limo, one can dictate the ride. If one pays a bus fare, you go where the bus is going. 

Obviously the OP doesn't want to drive business away, and probably does want to keep happy clients. I don't know what to say -- it sounds like some of the parents are being pretty petulant.


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## shesulsa (Sep 28, 2009)

It's a delicate balance between treating the parents as your customers (which they are, of course) and not being their ***** (term for female dog).


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## NPTKD (Sep 29, 2009)

Gorilla said:


> Martial Arts businesses are run many different ways. Some cater to the public and are very customer service oriented. Then others are more Martial "Military" Oriented some are Sport schools all very different ways of doing business. I have seen some schools that are a mix of the 3. If you are a parent in a school situation that does not fit your needs you should speak to the Master about it and find a mutual solution to your problem. You should never gossip, undermine, complain publicly or take matters into your own hands. The Master has a business to run and it is his right to run it as he sees fit. The success of his business will be the measuring stick for which he is judged not the parent in the waiting room. Parents stop acting like you own the place. You have a very important role get with you Master to help define that role but never I repeat never take matters into your own hands. If you can't find a proper solution then pay your bill and leave!


  We talked about something like this before...... I'm glad you are starting to see the other side!


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## NPTKD (Sep 29, 2009)

*Buisness with the same problems:*

Some dance school on line:
Our Waiting Area is solely for the use of our students. Please do not bring friends to wait between classes as there is not enough room. Valuables should be brought into the dancing rooms with the students. Please bring small snacks only into our waiting area. Full meals should be eaten at home. No fried foods or open containers allowed in waiting area. Please bring closed water bottles. Our changing room must be used to store dance bags, clothes and coats. This room is not to be used as a playroom. Jody's School of Dancing is not liable for any lost or stolen item left in any area of the studio

*Flex gym ( for kids)*

Parents are to remain downstairs for the duration of the class for safety reasons. Also, kids are less distracted that way. Parents are welcomed to wait in our party room at the end of the downstairs hall where there are tables and chairs at your disposal. Also, please *do not sit nor wait on the stairs* as this is a fire hazard and is dangerous. Only 5 minutes before the end of the class may anyone wait in the upstairs seating area


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## Gorilla (Sep 29, 2009)

NPTKD said:


> We talked about something like this before...... I'm glad you are starting to see the other side!



Thanks but you are off base on this one.  I started a thread about youth Black Belts.  It was a hotly debated thread.  I asserted that I had witnessed youth Black Belts (Poom belts) under 10 that deserved that rank.  As I recall you had some heartburn about my stance.  You accused me of being a difficult parent in the waiting room complaining about your master.  I explained to you that this was impossible our school is a Sport Team which trains at multiple locations and has no waiting room and that our Master and I are good friends who travel the world together attending TKD events.  This inspired another thread "I am a TKD addict" in which I described your posts as "VITRIOLIC".  I was wondering if you remembered the exchange.  I quite enjoyed it.  I am glad that you recognize that I am not what you first thought.  I still have a great relationship with our Master and consider him to be a great friend and part of our family.


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## Manny (Sep 29, 2009)

I think the dojan is a respectful place, were kids,yourgsters and full greon people train for many reasons, however parents think they can seat and have a nice chat with another parents and have some coffe and a dojang is not a cafeteria or coffee shop.

Th sambunim or instructoir has to be ploite but strong telling the parents to be quiet and to not drink or eat anything in the waiting room.

It's very disconforting ear the moms chatting so loud or small children runing and playing inside the dojang it really pist me off.

So we have to ask in a very serius way to these people to be quiet and the waiting area is just for wait for their kids only not for social encouters.

Manny


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## d1jinx (Sep 29, 2009)

It is amazing how rude people can be.
I was once teaching for this guy.  This womans son got hit in the throat during sparring.  It wasn't hard, but (forgive me for saying this) he was a little sissy to begin with.  He fell to the floor and started crying.  Mom ran out on the floor and started screaming, picked her son up and threatened to sue as she ran out the door with him.  A few days later she returned and said her son was not allowed to spar again.  Give me a break.  What does she think TKD is, basket weaving.  Try telling your football coach that its flag football and you can't get hit.  But these are the parents... 

I would've told them to stay gone, but the owner let them back... money and fear of lawsuit i guess.  so it is.


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## granfire (Sep 29, 2009)

d1jinx said:


> It is amazing how rude people can be.
> I was once teaching for this guy.  This womans son got hit in the throat during sparring.  It wasn't hard, but (forgive me for saying this) he was a little sissy to begin with.  He fell to the floor and started crying.  Mom ran out on the floor and started screaming, picked her son up and threatened to sue as she ran out the door with him.  A few days later she returned and said her son was not allowed to spar again.  Give me a break.  What does she think TKD is, basket weaving.  Try telling your football coach that its flag football and you can't get hit.  But these are the parents...
> 
> I would've told them to stay gone, but the owner let them back... money and fear of lawsuit i guess.  so it is.




Sissy Mom makes sissy kids....soooo, the kid just got his certificates handed to him? (I find that those who hit hardest cry the loudest, too)


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## d1jinx (Sep 30, 2009)

granfire said:


> Sissy Mom makes sissy kids....soooo, the kid just got his certificates handed to him? (I find that those who hit hardest cry the loudest, too)


 
Yeah more or less.  Not sure how long that kid stuck around.  I quit that school after I got fed up with paying to teach.  There were a few things that I didnt agree with so it was a good move to .... MOVE.


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## Twin Fist (Sep 30, 2009)

all you got to do to control that crap is tell one parent to take his kid and get OUT, that they dont GET to train with you anymore.

people feel SHAME very strongly


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## miguksaram (Sep 30, 2009)

d1jinx said:


> It is amazing how rude people can be.
> I was once teaching for this guy. This womans son got hit in the throat during sparring. It wasn't hard, but (forgive me for saying this) he was a little sissy to begin with. He fell to the floor and started crying. Mom ran out on the floor and started screaming, picked her son up and threatened to sue as she ran out the door with him. A few days later she returned and said her son was not allowed to spar again. Give me a break. What does she think TKD is, basket weaving. Try telling your football coach that its flag football and you can't get hit. But these are the parents...
> 
> I would've told them to stay gone, but the owner let them back... money and fear of lawsuit i guess. so it is.


 
We had a similar incident (-minus them running out the door).  Sensei just straight up told them that this is a contact activity and that is going to happen.  He followe up by simply asking her "Do you want him to learn to be a punching bag in the street or learn how to defend himself in the school?"  He told her that if she really didn't want it then she was welcome to leave, no hard feelings, and hopefully she can find a school that won't make her kid actually work.

She's still with us today.


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## miguksaram (Sep 30, 2009)

terryl965 said:


> Eric I have chairs and benches that goes up against the windows for the parents to sit and watch, the few that was sittting next to the window said the sun was beating down on them and remember the only thing is it was the back of there head and shoulders. I told them they could just move down a row and be closer to the front where there was no sun but they wannted to be in the back. I get alot of drive by people on the weekends and need them to see what is going on and at the same time I do not want to loose some people over little things.
> 
> My windows have a cover that allows people to see in but it blocks about 60% of the sun from coming in and by the way I have another seating area that is not by any windows, but they just want to sit there and then complain aout it.


 
Bottom line is that it is YOUR school and you just need to be firm about it.  If they don't like it, then move down or go shopping and come back later.  If need be talk to them privately so it will save any extra drama from popping up.


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## granfire (Sep 30, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> all you got to do to control that crap is tell one parent to take his kid and get OUT, that they dont GET to train with you anymore.
> 
> people feel SHAME very strongly




LOL, reminds me of the story my friend told me the other day. her kids did not listen answer up or do what they needed to do  - advanced students at that, so she got fed up, lined them up and bowed them out and told them to leave.

Next class they came back with greatly improved attitude. :lool:

so yeah, standing your ground pays


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## shesulsa (Sep 30, 2009)

granfire said:


> LOL, reminds me of the story my friend told me the other day. her kids did not listen answer up or do what they needed to do  - advanced students at that, so she got fed up, lined them up and bowed them out and told them to leave.
> 
> Next class they came back with greatly improved attitude. :lool:
> 
> so yeah, standing your ground pays



I just sat down and did nothing for about five minutes. One parent stuck her head in and asked if I was okay. I told her I was waiting for all of the kids to pay attention and follow instruction.  She looked at the kids who looked at her expectantly and she said, "Oh," and walked back to her seat outside and watched.  It took them five minutes to prepare for a basic exercise, so they now owe their parents 5 minutes of chores without question. Can't you just hear the "Awwwwwwww!" reaction I got?

I told the parents I'll handle discipline INSIDE the dojang so long as they handle it OUTSIDE.  All but one admitted to me last night  they do NOT encourage their children to practice and never see them practice.  So ... I am sending home practice cards - their children are responsible for practicing and their parents are responsible for supervising and signing off that the children actually practiced.  I told the parents I absolutely will *not* do their children the disservice of promoting them or giving them new material or going any further whatsoever until they make the corrections in their basic material which they have been given over and over and over again.  I told them they were paying me to teach their children the SAME THING over and over and over again and the answer was to MAKE THEM PRACTICE and show the parents their improvement.

We'll see how that goes.

I won't shame these parents - they went to City Hall to keep this program alive.  I _will_ seek a partnership with the parents.


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## Gorilla (Sep 30, 2009)

shesulsa said:


> I just sat down and did nothing for about five minutes. One parent stuck her head in and asked if I was okay. I told her I was waiting for all of the kids to pay attention and follow instruction.  She looked at the kids who looked at her expectantly and she said, "Oh," and walked back to her seat outside and watched.  It took them five minutes to prepare for a basic exercise, so they now owe their parents 5 minutes of chores without question. Can't you just hear the "Awwwwwwww!" reaction I got?
> 
> I told the parents I'll handle discipline INSIDE the dojang so long as they handle it OUTSIDE.  All but one admitted to me last night  they do NOT encourage their children to practice and never see them practice.  So ... I am sending home practice cards - their children are responsible for practicing and their parents are responsible for supervising and signing off that the children actually practiced.  I told the parents I absolutely will *not* do their children the disservice of promoting them or giving them new material or going any further whatsoever until they make the corrections in their basic material which they have been given over and over and over again.  I told them they were paying me to teach their children the SAME THING over and over and over again and the answer was to MAKE THEM PRACTICE and show the parents their improvement.
> 
> ...



I think that you have it just right...The Instructor and the parents need to form a partnership...We have to work together for the best interest of the student, the dojang and the other students...true training is about the team you get the best results when everyone works together...nobody can become the best by themselves...we all have a role to play...define that role and play your part...I would warn instructors to recognize that parents have a role to play it is your job to define that role within your dojang...if parents don't understand what you want from them you are asking for trouble...That role can be as simple as pay the bills and stay out of the way or as complex as helping with training and monitoring homework but it is up to the instructor to make it clear for everyone...Parents need to know what to expect...


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## Steve (Sep 30, 2009)

shesulsa said:


> I told the parents I'll handle discipline INSIDE the dojang so long as they handle it OUTSIDE. All but one admitted to me last night they do NOT encourage their children to practice and never see them practice. So ... I am sending home practice cards - their children are responsible for practicing and their parents are responsible for supervising and signing off that the children actually practiced.


I think it's a fine line between encouraging parents to participate and presuming to use one's position as a martial arts coach as a pulpit from which to judge people as parents.  

ATC and others, I went back and looked for a thread I started a while back that discusses all of the ramifications of whether an MA school can be a private club or not.  http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=71712

As an aside, I'm glad this gave me an opportunity to read that thread through again.  Some really good points were brought up on both sides.   That and I must have had a lot more time on my hands.


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## terryl965 (Sep 30, 2009)

Just an update the mom is no longer with us, I had ask her to leave and gave her a list of several schools to check out. She did not want to go but I informed her she was no longer welcome to be a part of my school, the sad thing is her son wants to stay and the mom want to wiegh in on every single decission so bottom line is go and be happy somewhere else.


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## TKD_Father (Sep 30, 2009)

Wow, kicked a student because his mom adjusted the window shades.


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## granfire (Sep 30, 2009)

TKD_Father said:


> Wow, kicked a student because his mom adjusted the window shades.




I think there was more to it, but why pay somebody to train your kid when you can do it better.....

Some combinations just are not a good match, maybe in another school mom will be valued and not a nuisance.


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## d1jinx (Sep 30, 2009)

terryl965 said:


> Just an update the mom is no longer with us, I had ask her to leave and gave her a list of several schools to check out. She did not want to go but I informed her she was no longer welcome to be a part of my school, the sad thing is her son wants to stay and the mom want to wiegh in on every single decission so bottom line is go and be happy somewhere else.


 
Give it some time.... if they return and ask to come back, give them a chance.  maybe she learned her leason.  just explain her actions are not tolerated if you let them back.  might turn out ok.


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## shesulsa (Sep 30, 2009)

Ya gotta do what ya gotta do, Terry.  If she spreads bad stuff about you, the smart people will give you chance regardless. You want smart clients.


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## ATC (Oct 1, 2009)

terryl965 said:


> Just an update the mom is no longer with us, I had ask her to leave and gave her a list of several schools to check out. She did not want to go but I informed her she was no longer welcome to be a part of my school, the sad thing is her son wants to stay and the mom want to wiegh in on every single decission so bottom line is go and be happy somewhere else.


You have to do what is best for you and your school. I hope all works out for the best for all.


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## shesulsa (Oct 1, 2009)

stevebjj said:


> I think it's a fine line between encouraging parents to participate and presuming to use one's position as a martial arts coach as a pulpit from which to judge people as parents.
> 
> ATC and others, I went back and looked for a thread I started a while back that discusses all of the ramifications of whether an MA school can be a private club or not.  http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=71712
> 
> As an aside, I'm glad this gave me an opportunity to read that thread through again.  Some really good points were brought up on both sides.   That and I must have had a lot more time on my hands.



That's a good thread to read - a centerpoint of that discussion is post #26 by SL4Drew where he posts part of the statute.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 1, 2009)

TKD_Father said:


> Wow, kicked a student because his mom adjusted the window shades.


It is fairly obvious that this goes beyond the mere act of adjusting the blinds.  

This is an issue of a parent's behavior in the lobby and being unable to comply with a simple request of 'don't touch' on numerous occasions and it seems that there is a hefty amount of complaining being done that is disproportionate to the issue of the blinds.  It also seems from Terry's initial post that this clique was making a point to make trouble.

Consider: the waiting room is just that: a *waiting* room.  Services are rendered on the mats and in the office, not in the waiting room.  The waiting room windows have UV film on them to filter out excessive heat, and for those who still wish a less sunny seat, they are accomodated by seating further up in the room.  These individuals, for whatever reason, have chosen to refuse that accomodation.

I worked retail for many years.  Too many.  There are people who simply live to complain.  They complain loudly and vociferously and do so to as much of an audience as they can.  Such people will do this no matter how good the service is, no matter how perfect your facility and no matter how much you accomodate them.  Because no accomodation is ever enough; they *want* to complain.  

And they will do their best to poison anyone else in the waiting room with their negativity until it is made clear that you will no longer service them if they continue.  At this point, they will either behave themselves or they will be denied service.

These are people who suffer from some other issue that has nothing to do with the establishments they patronize and subsequently antagonize.  Whatever that issue is, it is not encumbent upon merchants and service providers to enable them in their bad behavior.  

I worked in a mall location years ago and there were people who were unwelcome in nearly every store in the mall due to their behavior.  Mall security was aware of them.  These were not shoplifters.  These were individuals who spent their days looking for excuses to complain, and then doing so to such an extent that they were unbearable in every establishment that they entered.

Sometimes, these people have kids enrolled in a martial arts class and ruin things for their kids by antagonizing the staff.

Daniel


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## Steve (Oct 1, 2009)

shesulsa said:


> That's a good thread to read - a centerpoint of that discussion is post #26 by SL4Drew where he posts part of the statute.


Agree and largely why I posted the link.  The following is particularly relevant to this discussion:  

_Some factors courts look at are: (1) whether the club is highly selective in choosing members; (2) whether the club membership exercises a high degree of control over the establishment's operations; (3) whether the organization has historically been intended to be a private club; (4) the degree to which the establishment is opened up to non-members; (5) the purpose of the club's existence; (6) the breadth of the club's advertising for members; (7) whether the club is non-profit; (8) the degree to which the club observes formalities; (9) whether substantial membership fees are charged; (10) the degree to which the club receives public funding; and (11) whether the club was created or is being used to avoid compliance with a civil rights act._

My point then and now is that, by these criteria, most MA schools would not be able to claim status as a private club.  Some, perhaps, depending upon how specifically it's run.  Most schools are for-profit, are not extremely selective, actively canvas for new membership, consider payment for lessons "fees" rather than "dues" and are not self identified as a "private club."


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## Steve (Oct 1, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> It is fairly obvious that this goes beyond the mere act of adjusting the blinds.
> 
> This is an issue of a parent's behavior in the lobby and being unable to comply with a simple request of 'don't touch' on numerous occasions and it seems that there is a hefty amount of complaining being done that is disproportionate to the issue of the blinds. It also seems from Terry's initial post that this clique was making a point to make trouble.
> 
> ...


This is actually a conscious shift in corporate retail policy over the last decade or so.  In the 90's (and for a long time prior to that), the mantra of "the customer is always right" was considered sacrosanct.  As we moved into the new millenium, many large retailers made the decision to change that policy and now have no problem showing certian people the door.  They finally realized that bending over backwards attempting to satisfy one unpleasable customer often undermined good service to many other pleasable customers.  Or, simply put, there are certain customers who end up costing the company money in the long run, even if they make a purchase.  While a good retail outlet will still do everything it can to make things right for good customers, there is a realization that not everyone is a good customer.  There are bad customers, too. 

Great post, Daniel.


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## shesulsa (Oct 1, 2009)

stevebjj said:


> Agree and largely why I posted the link.  The following is particularly relevant to this discussion:
> 
> _Some factors courts look at are: (1) whether the club is highly selective in choosing members; (2) whether the club membership exercises a high degree of control over the establishment's operations; (3) whether the organization has historically been intended to be a private club; (4) the degree to which the establishment is opened up to non-members; (5) the purpose of the club's existence; (6) the breadth of the club's advertising for members; (7) whether the club is non-profit; (8) the degree to which the club observes formalities; (9) whether substantial membership fees are charged; (10) the degree to which the club receives public funding; and (11) whether the club was created or is being used to avoid compliance with a civil rights act._
> 
> My point then and now is that, by these criteria, most MA schools would not be able to claim status as a private club.  Some, perhaps, depending upon how specifically it's run.  Most schools are for-profit, are not extremely selective, actively canvas for new membership, consider payment for lessons "fees" rather than "dues" and are not self identified as a "private club."



I'm wondering if articles of incorporation could be worded to define a club as private or not.


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## shesulsa (Oct 1, 2009)

Hey, I wonder if Terry would mind if this thread were moved to School Management?


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## shesulsa (Oct 1, 2009)

I really wanted to reply to this:



stevebjj said:


> I think it's a fine line between encouraging parents to participate and presuming to use one's position as a martial arts coach as a pulpit from which to judge people as parents.



I couldn't agree more which is why I think a bit of a partnership must be reached.  I won't tell the parents how to parent, but I did express to them that I would be doing a disservice to them by promoting them without demonstrated improvement.  They are also *little* *kids* I'd be doing everyone a disservice by not acknowledging that.  They are still developing emotionally, physically, socially. You have to address those needs in class one way or another.

The parents of the kids I teach seem to trust me - I take the time to talk to the children on their level one-on-one and right in front of the parents.  They are always *so* nice and respectful when they speak with me.  

The class where I assisted for a few years ... well, I tried to address parental issues because there just seemed to be conflict resulting from misunderstanding sometimes, so I sought to bridge that gap.  I remember the parents of one young man in particular who were very frustrated because their son had done well to memorize all of his material quickly and he wasn't immediately tested for his next rank and they expressed some dissatisfaction.  I think this frustrated the instructor as well others.  I talked with them after class one day and just told them that their son - though having the sequence of moves memorized - was still learning the technique, the flow of form ... these things had to mature with practice and time and asked them to give him another month in the class.  Sure enough, that time and his intelligence and natural talent paid off; he was not faltering on any move, his aim was good, his stances and balance were improving ... he was closer to *owning* his material.  I brought mom right out onto the floor to watch from a different vantage point so he wouldn't see her.  She agreed to his progress and I recommended him to the instructor for testing. He passed with flying colors.

OTOH, you can explain and placate and schmooze all you want and there will be those whom will not be happy and are just plain old narcissistic people who have certain ideas and getting them beyond that point just isn't going to happen.  There's a special place for those folks - outside the dojang.


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## Gorilla (Oct 1, 2009)

TKD_Father said:


> Wow, kicked a student because his mom adjusted the window shades.



The issue isn't the adjustment of the window shades.  It is the open disrespect that it represents.  The owner of the business had asked them not to do it and they did it anyway.  Clearly more to this issue than we know.  The fact of the matter still remains just because you pay a fee it does not mean that you own the place.  Have a discussion with the Master in private don't seek to undermine his authority in such a blatantly disrespectful fashion in public. Masters remember respect is a two way street you must show it to get it and I have witnessed a few Masters who did not follow this rule.  Parents it is incumbent upon you to make sure that you research any organization that you join to make sure that it fits your needs.  If you find that you have made a mistake pay your bill and leave. Don't become a cancer for those who may like the Dojang.


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## TKD_Father (Oct 1, 2009)

There is always more then one way to handle a situation. Kicking the student is one solution. Personally, I would have handled it quite differently, but this is Terry's business and his choice.

I'm not sure I agree with *seek to undermine his authority in such a blatantly disrespectful fashion in public* for closing some blinds to get some shade though. It's not like they were spitting chewing tobacco on the mats or something. But I do agree with *remember respect is a two way street* and closing the blinds for 50 minutes or so might have gone very far in that regard.

I'm sure it will send a message to the other parents at his school. And I'm also sure they are already talking about it.


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## granfire (Oct 1, 2009)

TKD_Father said:


> There is always more then one way to handle a situation. Kicking the student is one solution. Personally, I would have handled it quite differently, but this is Terry's business and his choice.
> 
> I'm not sure I agree with *seek to undermine his authority in such a blatantly disrespectful fashion in public* for closing some blinds to get some shade though. It's not like they were spitting chewing tobacco on the mats or something. But I do agree with *remember respect is a two way street* and closing the blinds for 50 minutes or so might have gone very far in that regard.
> 
> I'm sure it will send a message to the other parents at his school. And I'm also sure they are already talking about it.




If you do read carefully through Terry's post you will find that there are more issues than just the blinds - which btw was enough of a test of power, considering that shaded spots were available. Some people just are that way, passive aggressive and you do well to rid yourself of them, they poison the atmosphere. Oh, and I am sure she will turn around and do the 'poor me' routine, too.


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## terryl965 (Oct 1, 2009)

shesulsa said:


> Hey, I wonder if Terry would mind if this thread were moved to School Management?


 
Go a head, it would probaly benefit some people.


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## shesulsa (Oct 1, 2009)

TKD_Father said:


> There is always more then one way to handle a situation. Kicking the student is one solution. Personally, I would have handled it quite differently, but this is Terry's business and his choice.
> 
> I'm not sure I agree with *seek to undermine his authority in such a blatantly disrespectful fashion in public* for closing some blinds to get some shade though. It's not like they were spitting chewing tobacco on the mats or something. But I do agree with *remember respect is a two way street* and closing the blinds for 50 minutes or so might have gone very far in that regard.
> 
> I'm sure it will send a message to the other parents at his school. And I'm also sure they are already talking about it.



Well ... Terry said this:



terryl965 said:


> Just an update the mom is no longer with us, I had ask her to leave and gave her a list of several schools to check out. She did not want to go but I informed her she was no longer welcome to be a part of my school, the sad thing is her son wants to stay and the *mom want to wiegh in on every single decission* so bottom line is go and be happy somewhere else.



Sounds like she could be a liability.


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## terryl965 (Oct 1, 2009)

TKD_Father said:


> Wow, kicked a student because his mom adjusted the window shades.


 
Sir there was alot more issue than the window shade, that was the last straw. The dis-respect she gave everybody was too much in the long run.


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## Marginal (Oct 1, 2009)

Geeze. I usually don't mess with stuff like that in *anyone's* business. I always kinda assume it's their business and they have things they way they want 'em. (They probably have a good reason for doing so.) Buying a meal at a place etc doesn't make me think that I in turn own part of the business and that I'm entitled to do as I like as soon as they take my money.


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## TKD_Father (Oct 2, 2009)

terryl965 said:


> Sir there was alot more issue than the window shade, that was the last straw. The dis-respect she gave everybody was too much in the long run.



If you allowed the situation to get to the point that a window shade was the last straw, then you allowed the situation to go to far. 

Without going into any details, how many times had you sat her down prior to the dreaded curtain incident, and how did those sessions go? Bottom line is that you control the school, not her, and you should have been able to come to an understanding before it became necessary to kick out a student.

Of course, if you sat her down more then a few times and explained things with her and she still chose to challenge your authority in the school, including disrupting class and bothering the other students, then you have no choice but to ask her to leave, and perhaps remove her child from your school.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 2, 2009)

More than likely, things with parents go further than they ordinarilly would because the parent is not the student.  No instructor wants to penalize a child for a parent's idiot behavior.  

Several observations have been made about poor behavior on the part of customers being cause to ask them to leave.  When a parent behaves in a way that they would be asked to leave, however, the parent is not the student.  Kicking out a disruptive parent means kicking out the child as well.

Some time back, we had an issue with a parent who was generally unruly and confrontational.  Ultimately, the situation solved itself before coming to a head (the student's contract ended and the dad did not renew), but it went on longer than it should have because the student was, quite honestly, excellent and a good kid who just loved the art and the school.  The dad, on the other hand, was openly disrespectful to both GM Kim and the rest of the teaching staff (I was not on staff at that time).  

GM Kim handled each incident of bad behavior professionally and diffused it, but the episodes were fairly regular (at least one a month) and did get progressively worse.  The major difference with this situation from Terry's is that the other parents generally found the dad's behavior to be out of line and either ignored him when he tried to spread the negativity or told him that they were happy with the school and to keep it to himself.

As I said, I was not on staff at the time, and I found that his behavior was not limited to the waiting room.  He spoke to me about his complaints when we would see eachother in a store that both his son and my sons liked to visit, and he and I did not know eachother well enough to even be considered casual friends.  Other parents from the school who's kids occasionally made their way into the store (it was a comic book store) were also approached by him.  

Bottom line is that a person who stirs up trouble in the waiting room is also doing so elsewhere.  And not just for the school, but likely regarding other businesses or people.  

If this mom that Terry had to send away was anything like this dad was, then nothing short of kicking her out would have solved the problem, both at the very beginning and at the end when it finally happened.

People like this never learned respect for others and by the time they are adults with kids of their own, it is too late to teach them.  Such people genrally never learn unless a life altering even occurrs that forces them to radically reevaluate their own behavior.  And even then, many such people simply determine that they are persecuted and become even more entrenched in their behavior.

Daniel


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## granfire (Oct 2, 2009)

TKD_Father said:


> If you allowed the situation to get to the point that a window shade was the last straw, then you allowed the situation to go to far.
> 
> Without going into any details, how many times had you sat her down prior to the dreaded curtain incident, and how did those sessions go? Bottom line is that you control the school, not her, and you should have been able to come to an understanding before it became necessary to kick out a student.
> 
> Of course, if you sat her down more then a few times and explained things with her and she still chose to challenge your authority in the school, including disrupting class and bothering the other students, then you have no choice but to ask her to leave, and perhaps remove her child from your school.



Many times the incidents are just this side of non offensive. Nothing you can get a foothold on. yes, one probably should stand up right then and there, but the reaction would likely be overkill. Like a good zit, no sense popping it until it's good and ready.


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## miguksaram (Oct 2, 2009)

TKD_Father said:


> If you allowed the situation to get to the point that a window shade was the last straw, then you allowed the situation to go to far.


 
Wait...I'm confused.  Didn't you say earlier that kicking her out wouldn't have been your choice?  So what do you do so that it doesn't get "too far"?  Terry has spoken with her and tried the nice route.  It didn't work.  Do what is your advice when the counseling and the niceness doesn't resolve the situation?

Also, you should put on a school owner hat not a parent of a student hat when developing your answer.  

Lastly to Terry...Sometimes you have to kill one to warn a thousand.


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## shesulsa (Oct 2, 2009)

TKD_Father said:


> If you allowed the situation to get to the point that a window shade was the last straw, then you allowed the situation to go to far.
> 
> Without going into any details, how many times had you sat her down prior to the dreaded curtain incident, and how did those sessions go? Bottom line is that you control the school, not her, and you should have been able to come to an understanding before it became necessary to kick out a student.
> 
> Of course, if you sat her down more then a few times and explained things with her and she still chose to challenge your authority in the school, including disrupting class and bothering the other students, then you have no choice but to ask her to leave, and perhaps remove her child from your school.



As to what exactly was the last straw, it doesn't really matter - what matters is that the line had been drawn and she continued to step over it.

As to the rest of your post, it sounds like this is what Terry did.


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## TKD_Father (Oct 2, 2009)

miguksaram said:


> Wait...I'm confused.  Didn't you say earlier that kicking her out wouldn't have been your choice?  So what do you do so that it doesn't get "too far"?  Terry has spoken with her and tried the nice route.  It didn't work.  Do what is your advice when the counseling and the niceness doesn't resolve the situation?
> 
> Also, you should put on a school owner hat not a parent of a student hat when developing your answer.
> 
> Lastly to Terry...Sometimes you have to kill one to warn a thousand.



My words were "I would have handled the situation differently". The result _may_ have been the same.

As to Terry's actions, if you read through this thread in it's entirety, you will see that he begins with "a group of parents". He continues for several replies referring the "them" meaning a group of parents and not just one individual. Then his remarks suddenly change to "the mom is no longer with us".

You claim *Terry has spoken with her and tried the nice route.  It didn't work.* yet there are no comments from Terry here to indicate that. The only thing he has said is "there was alot more issue than the window shade, that was the last straw. The dis-respect she gave everybody was too much in the long run"

I'm not saying that Terry is wrong in his decision to terminate this childs TKD involvement at his school. But without all the information, it seems a very harsh action.

I believe there is much more to this then is posted here.


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## Twin Fist (Oct 2, 2009)

this is TERRY we are talking about, he couldnt be rude if you put a gun to his head

also, the only people QUALIFIED to critique Terry on this one are other school owners who have had to deal with this


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 2, 2009)

TKD_Father said:


> I'm not saying that Terry is wrong in his decision to terminate this childs TKD involvement at his school. But without all the information, it seems a very harsh action.
> 
> I believe there is much more to this then is posted here.


It always looks harsh when it is in black and white print.  And it is harsh for a child when the parent, who is supposed to be setting an example, is behaving in a childish manner which ultimately causes the child to suffer.

Generally, things like this go on for a goodly amount of time before coming to a head.  Consider that an instructor spends the bulk of his or her time teaching.  Interraction with the parents occurs only between classes and at the end of the day when classes are done, at which point, the staff is ready to go home.

When a parent or small clique of parents need to be babysat because they cannot behave themselves, the school staff is not to blame; they are busy doing what they are supposed to be doing: teaching class.  Parents who need to be in some kind of adult daycare are not the responsibility of the dojo staff.  

And as a parent, I cannot stand parents who behave that way.  They take the instructor's time and attention away from the class, which is what I am paying for for my own kids, be it martial arts or a soccor clinic.  

Unruly parents are a fact of nearly all school age sports programs, be it soccor, football, or karate class.  Terry has what I consider a very large school, so it does not surprise me that he has a clique of them to deal with.  Such parents often ruin things for their kids.  Like dads who go charging onto the field to actually grab a kid on the other team.  Or get into fistfights with other dads because they cannot control their tempers.  There are certainly mom equivallents, who try to micromanage every move that an instructor makes because they have the answer to everything, never mind that mom has no background to do so.

And yes, it is harsh because the child suffers for a parent's immature behavior.

Daniel


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## TKD_Father (Oct 2, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> this is TERRY we are talking about, he couldnt be rude if you put a gun to his head
> 
> also, the only people QUALIFIED to critique Terry on this one are other school owners who have had to deal with this



Now THAT was a quick edit, though I did see what you had before it got changed.

First - I haven't said that Terry was rude in any sense. I haven't implied it - so please don't infer that is what I've said. What I've said is that it is very harsh to tell a child he can no longer train at the school because his mother can't control herself.

Second - Though you changed your last remarks, which were originally a personal attack at me, I'll comment. One need not run a TKD school to understand customer relations.


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## TKD_Father (Oct 2, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> When a parent or small clique of parents need to be babysat because they cannot behave themselves, the school staff is not to blame; they are busy doing what they are supposed to be doing: teaching class.  Parents who need to be in some kind of adult daycare are not the responsibility of the dojo staff.
> Daniel



Oh I don't disagree. I'm saying that if the parent is recognized as a problem, then it needs to be dealt with right away.

Instead of grumbling time and time again and then suddenly kicking them out, tell the parent you'd like to see them in your office and have a private discussion about their childs future in TKD at this school. Make sure the parent is aware that their actions could determine their child's continued TKD training.

And of course, this still could lead to the ultimate end of kicking the child out of class, but if the parent is aware of the consequences and continues to "cross the line", then there's no alternative.

Based on the information provided in this post, it appears that Terry's actions were harsh. I don't know Terry other then the posts I read. It may very well be that Terry took exactly the actions I've posted, and this is the cumulation, in which case we would be in complete agreement. 

Thus far in the post we have 1-some people adjusting shades, 2-child kicked for mom's many disrespectful actions.


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## Gorilla (Oct 2, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> this is TERRY we are talking about, he couldnt be rude if you put a gun to his head
> 
> also, the only people QUALIFIED to critique Terry on this one are other school owners who have had to deal with this



I would agree that Terry is very good Master from what I have read on this board and his reputation.

I disagree with your assertion about who is qualified to comment.  Many parents are intelligent and quite capable of commenting on this subject.  Judge their behavior and what they say.  Parents also have to deal with this as they subjected to the same rants from demanding parents as well.


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## Steve (Oct 2, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> this is TERRY we are talking about, he couldnt be rude if you put a gun to his head


I don't know Terry personally, but by his posts here, I can believe this! 


> also, the only people QUALIFIED to critique Terry on this one are other school owners who have had to deal with this


disagree completely.  You don't have to be a school owner to offer something meaningful.  Heck, you don't necessarily have to have been a business owner.  This is as much a human interaction/interpersonal skills situation as it is an MA school owner issue.  More so, in my opinion.


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## Steve (Oct 2, 2009)

Gorilla said:


> I disagree with your assertion about who is qualified to comment. Many parents are intelligent and quite capable of commenting on this subject. Judge their behavior and what they say. Parents also have to deal with this as they subjected to the same rants from demanding parents as well.


I guess I should have kept reading.


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## terryl965 (Oct 2, 2009)

Let me say this, I am sorry I did talk to the group as a group and then as individual. Most of them understood and said they would try to make things better for the sake of there childern and help build unity withen the school. The one mom just refused to accept this and said she can say whatever she wants whenever she wants, now this is true she can have a voice but not in my school when it comes to the day to day operation of the school. I wish we could have meet somewhere in the middle so the child could have stayed but the lady in question just did not see t that way.

TKD Father you are right you never accused me of anything and I appreciate your input as well as all others on this board. One of the reason I stay here is because we have such awide range of good honest folks with perspective from every angle. Me as a lot of instructors hate to loose any student or parent from a class but we cannot and will never make everybody 100% happy so we do the very best that we can and try to compromise and then go from there. 

Thank you all for a very interested thread and looking for more input and perspective from each and everyone of you. :asian:


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## TKD_Father (Oct 2, 2009)

It sounds like it was a difficult decision, I don't envy your position.

It is truly a shame that she chose her course, knowing what the outcome would be.


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## Twin Fist (Oct 3, 2009)

I thought you had me on ignore....

the world is harsh. Fact of Life, and if mommy has to listen to Little Johnny cry about getting kicked out of class, maybe she will remember to shut her hole at the next school


anyway, fix your sig, your kid is TEN, he aint a Dan




TKD_Father said:


> Now THAT was a quick edit, though I did see what you had before it got changed.
> 
> First - I haven't said that Terry was rude in any sense. I haven't implied it - so please don't infer that is what I've said. What I've said is that it is very harsh to tell a child he can no longer train at the school because his mother can't control herself.
> 
> Second - Though you changed your last remarks, which were originally a personal attack at me, I'll comment. One need not run a TKD school to understand customer relations.


----------



## TKD_Father (Oct 3, 2009)

Yes, you are on ignore, which has a button to "View Post".

*anyway, fix your sig, your kid is TEN, he aint a Dan*

In his school, he is a First Dan, and to quote you *i dont care if you agree with me * (sic)


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## Jade Tigress (Oct 3, 2009)

*ATTENTION ALL USERS

Please keep the conversation polite and respectful and return to the original topic. If you choose to use the ignore feature, please allow it to do it's job.

Pamela Piszczek
MT Super Moderator*


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## Twin Fist (Oct 3, 2009)

a school with 10 yuear old DAN belts


yeah ok


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## jks9199 (Oct 3, 2009)

Folks, 
This thread is neither the time nor place to discuss the relative merits of children's rankings.  Let's stick with the issue of options to handle rude or disruptive parents who don't cooperate with the school owner's desires, OK?


----------



## dortiz (Oct 3, 2009)

True but we should clear up one technical point. A Black Belt under 15 years of age is a Poom holder. Not a Dan. It does transfer over but technically thats a true point to make.

Now take down those shades!

Dave O.


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## Taurusmerda (Oct 3, 2009)

Your place of business. If they are poisoning the environment, boot their asses.
If they are trying to poison your other clients, boot them even faster.

Sounds like you did the right thing.


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## Marginal (Oct 3, 2009)

dortiz said:


> True but we should clear up one technical point. A Black Belt under 15 years of age is a Poom holder. Not a Dan.


That's not universal.


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## Twin Fist (Oct 3, 2009)

it ought to be


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 3, 2009)

dortiz said:


> True but we should clear up one technical point. A Black Belt under 15 years of age is a Poom holder. Not a Dan. It does transfer over but technically thats a true point to make.


Only if they are Kukkiwon.  Other orgs handle youth ranks differently.  

The only thing that kiddie black belts have to do with this discussion is that it attracts more kids and thus more parents, and thus more difficult parents due to the law of averages.

Otherwise, I do not care about whether or not schools put black pieces of cloth on children.  I have voiced my opinion about youth BB's on the youth BB thread.

Daniel


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## jks9199 (Oct 3, 2009)

*Attention all users:

Please return to the original topic.

jks9199
Sr. Moderator
*


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## Twin Fist (Oct 3, 2009)

*sigh*

FINE

uh, wut was it again?



KIDDING!


----------



## tshadowchaser (Oct 4, 2009)

> en a parent or small clique of parents need to be babysat because they cannot behave themselves, the school staff is not to blame; they are busy doing what they are supposed to be doing: teaching class. Parents who need to be in some kind of adult daycare are not the responsibility of the dojo staff.


 

I must disagree
anyone interfering with class is the responsibility of all instructors
If a parent /brother/sister or anyone constantly interfers with class then they should be given the option of stopping their activity, not comeing to class, or takeing their child someone else.
If your only concern is makeing money you do not need to be a martial arts instructor. 
 If your interested in teaching then teach for for the majority and for the benifit of the students and get rid of the people causeing trouble with in the school


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## TKD_Father (Oct 4, 2009)

tshadowchaser said:


> I must disagree
> anyone interfering with class is the responsibility of all instructors
> If a parent /brother/sister or anyone constantly interfers with class then they should be given the option of stopping their activity, not comeing to class, or takeing their child someone else.
> If your only concern is makeing money you do not need to be a martial arts instructor.
> If your interested in teaching then teach for for the majority and for the benifit of the students and get rid of the people causeing trouble with in the school



Couldn't agree more.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 5, 2009)

tshadowchaser said:


> Daniel Sullivan said:
> 
> 
> > When a parent or small clique of parents need to be babysat because they cannot behave themselves, the school staff is not to blame; they are busy doing what they are supposed to be doing: teaching class. Parents who need to be in some kind of adult daycare are not the responsibility of the dojo staff.
> ...


You seem to have taken my comment out of context. 

My whole point was that, as you just said in your post, 

_"If a parent /brother/sister or anyone constantly interfers with class then they should be given the option of stopping their activity, not comeing to class, or takeing their child someone else." _

Here is my post in its entirety.



Daniel Sullivan said:


> It always looks harsh when it is in black and white print. And it is harsh for a child when the parent, who is supposed to be setting an example, is behaving in a childish manner which ultimately causes the child to suffer.
> 
> Generally, things like this go on for a goodly amount of time before coming to a head. Consider that an instructor spends the bulk of his or her time teaching. Interraction with the parents occurs only between classes and at the end of the day when classes are done, at which point, the staff is ready to go home.
> 
> ...


 
My post was a response to TKDfather who felt that Terry's response "seemed harsh". I essentially said that the staff has every right to eject troublemakers. You say that you disagree, yet you then say the same thing.

Nowhere did I say that the staff has no responsibility to address the issue, which is what you seem to be implying (perhsps that is not, but that is what you seem to be saying). TKDfather made a comment to the effect that the situation has gone too far if it gets to a point that a student and parent are being kicked out. That is what I was addressing. 

Baby sitting the parents is not the responsibility of the staff. If the parents cannot behave themselves, then it needs to be addressed, and if the parents will not behave then they can go elsewhere.

And what on earth does this... 





tshadowchaser said:


> If your only concern is makeing money you do not need to be a martial arts instructor.


have to do with what I said in my post?

Nowhere in my post did I bring up profitablitly or making money in any fashion. My comment would apply equally to a non profit school or even a school that does not charge.

Even in a commercial school, the instructional staff is not highly paid. Most likely, aside from the owner, they are volunteers. Their reason for being there is to teach a martial art, not to play babysitter to immature adults who misbehave in the waiting room. If the adults cannot behave, then they either need to find another school or leave the building for the duration of the class. That is the point I was making.

If I am misreading your post (certainly a possibility), I apologize. If so, however, please clarify.

Daniel


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## TKD_Father (Oct 5, 2009)

During the evolution of this topic it has come to light that Terry gave this woman every opportunity to comply with his Dojang rules, and she chose to continue to be a bad influence to the other parents.

It is a harsh action to dismiss a child. And prior to Terry's comments regarding what actually transpired, all I had to go on were the comments here which were that some parents moved some shades and a child was asked to never return based on his mother's actions.

Now it's been explained what levels Terry went through with this woman, and I'm in complete agreement that terminating her son's schooling would be the the last resort. It's unfortunate that she forced this decision. I still maintain that a situation _shouldn't_ ever get to this level.

I don't envy Terry's position at all. I'm sure it's something that will stay with him for a long while.

tshadowchaser - I'm in agreement with you that it's the responsibility of the school's owner, instructors, secretary and staff to control the environment of the facility. If there's an unruly parent watching a class it's pretty easy to discreetly pull that parent aside and let them know their actions aren't in the best interest of her child's schooling.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 5, 2009)

TKD_Father said:


> During the evolution of this topic it has come to light that Terry gave this woman every opportunity to comply with his Dojang rules, and she chose to continue to be a bad influence to the other parents.


This is usually the case when people are finally asked to leave.  No instructor takes the removal of a student lightly.  If the school is a means of income for the instructor, then that is another factor that makes student ejections a delicate matter, particularly in the current economic climb. 



TKD_Father said:


> It is a harsh action to dismiss a child. And prior to Terry's comments regarding what actually transpired, all I had to go on were the comments here which were that some parents moved some shades and a child was asked to never return based on his mother's actions.
> 
> Now it's been explained what levels Terry went through with this woman, and I'm in complete agreement that terminating her son's schooling would be the the last resort. It's unfortunate that she forced this decision.
> 
> ...


Yes, it is the responsibility of the staff to control the environment of the facility.  Most issues with parents in the waiting room are simple misunderstandings that are solved with the helping hand of the staff.  

But the controling of the environment is not the primary job of the staff.  Which is why a continually troublesome parent or student can justifiably be ejected.

Daniel


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## Tez3 (Oct 5, 2009)

I had a father who kept trying to undermine me so I brought him onto the mat to use him as uke and choked him out, it kept the other parents quiet for quite a while but then I'm just a thug rofl!
We are a club and on Crown property so through both my job and being an instructor I'm in charge and I can actually order the parents off site if I wish, can even arrest them lol! I don't really have any 'bad' parents at the moment though.
I think Terry did all the right things, acted properly and shouldn't worry.


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## granfire (Oct 5, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> I had a father who kept trying to undermine me so I brought him onto the mat to use him as uke and choked him out, it kept the other parents quiet for quite a while but then I'm just a thug rofl!
> We are a club and on Crown property so through both my job and being an instructor I'm in charge and I can actually order the parents off site if I wish, can even arrest them lol! I don't really have any 'bad' parents at the moment though.
> I think Terry did all the right things, acted properly and shouldn't worry.




AAAHHHH, dream like working conditions! I know over here some Little League Umpires would love to have that kind of power!


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## Tez3 (Oct 6, 2009)

granfire said:


> AAAHHHH, dream like working conditions! I know over here some Little League Umpires would love to have that kind of power!


 

LOL! Classes usually run okay but occasionally I get a father in who thinks a woman teaching fighting can't be right so has to question everything I do, in the adult class I've had the same type refuse to spar with me. The only solution frankly is show them I _can_ hurt them, they're squaddies they understand that. Usually though as I said they are fine, sometimes the parents do talk a little loudly so all I have to do is look at them, ( I was taught 'the look' when in training in the RAF lol) once I had to raise my voice and tell them to be quiet ( military people will know that 'voice' lol) it's not shouting though. 
Next spring though is going to be hard, just about all our adults and most of the kids dads are off to Ghan. For the kids that's when they start playing up,mums get short tempered and we all have to work harder to try to keep things on an even keel. When the men come back, for a while things are actually worse as everyone tries to settle back into 'normal' life.


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## elder999 (Oct 6, 2009)

TKD_Father said:


> Interesting way of dealing with customers...


 

I'm weighing in on this kind of late, but *I don't have "customers."*

I don't think those words should go together: _martial arts instruction _and _customers._

I rarely accept kids as students, but when I have (mostly so my own kids would have "peers" to interact with and ukes that were more realistic, or they were the kids of adults who were already students, and a few other special exceptions over the years) I've laways had a thorough discussion of rules and expectations with the parents-I even have a printout that goes with the contract. 

None of my contracts are for more than 2 ranks, or six months, whichever comes *last*, and I *have* promoted students at the end of a contract-kids *and* adults-and told them that they'd have to find instruction elsewhere, because we were through. I've suspended teens for being rude, and I kicked one mom out of the barn and told her to wait in the car until she could control herself (constantly talking and "coaching" her kids). 

This lady didn't meet the expectations of the _relationship_: if you call it a customer-provider relationship, I think it diminishes what it's supposed to be, and if you allow that kind of thinking, I think it diminshes what a _teacher_ is supposed to be. 

That's just me, though-I have a job, and don't have to drum up business-though I might go slightly more commercial as part of my retirement, I'll still be particular about who I allow as a student-never mind who I allow to just "hang around." 

Coffee? *Meals??* _Really?_ I must be getting old: my mom was sometimes the queen of hoverers, and she'd never have done what that woman did in Oyama Shihan's dojo, and she wasn't afraid of _anyone_-she just knew when to leave well enough alone, and _that her comfort wasn't a priority in that place._ In fact, most of the time, she wasn't even around.......


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## Tez3 (Oct 6, 2009)

elder999 said:


> I'm weighing in on this kind of late, but *I don't have "customers."*
> 
> I don't think those words should go together: _martial arts instruction _and _customers._
> 
> ...


_



Having read this I have to agree, I don't see the people who come into our club as 'customers' and the very reason we teach children is because we are a community and have a relationship with all who come in the door. I doubt I would teach children if I were an instructor anywhere else.
Our teens are in the adults MMA session so tend not to be rude lol! 

I put coffee on when we have a grading, we try to make it a special occasion, we don't have many gradings so it's a big thing and if I've come off a night shift *I* need the coffee!
We have a Christmas party though for the kids again because of the circumstances we live in, it gets everyone together for a bit of fun and relaxation at the end of the year. 
Even if we were commercial and we had 'customers' we still have the right to not admit or throw out anyone we didn't want (English law so don't start quoting other laws at me)

As this is the internet (no really?) the temptation to jump in and condemn people is so, well, tempting, and TKD Father you seem to jump in with both feet immediately without waiting to see what's actually transpired. It's too easy to judge sat at the computer and say well I wouldn't have done that or it shouldn't have got that far, remember we weren't there, didn't hear the tone of voice used or see the body language, hadn't had a relationship with the people concerned to make a proper judgement call. I teach children but don't do the belt factory thing, no one will ever get a blackbelt under 16 from us, over 16 they may get a junior one but possibly not. I won't take any blackbelt seriously who's under the age of at least 20 odd and trained for quite a few years. To me whatever a blackbelt choses to do ie points sparring, Olympic sparring etc is fine but they must if necessary be able to fight full contact and full on to save life. I agree with all the things about not fighting if you can, de-escalation etc but push comes to shove a blackbelt must be able to fight. These children with blackbelts can't, it's a simple as that so no blackbelts for them.
Took me nine years to get my belt and I'll likely be a 1st Dan forever, childrens BB devalue the work I put in and others like me. A martial arts school/club even when run commercially is a unque entity, the relationship between instructor and student is something I haven't found anywhere else not even in other sports. Terry is a fine example of the instructor who cares very much about his students, wants the best for them all and will be uncompromising of his high standards, we need people like this in our world. Even the expelled student should learn something, that there are people who keep their word and won't back down from doing the right thing just because someone throws a hissy fit. We need more people with Terry's standards not less._


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## elder999 (Oct 6, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Took me nine years to get my belt and I'll likely be a 1st Dan forever, *childrens BB devalue the work I put in and others like me*. .


 
QFT.

Started training when I was 8, started training _formally_ when I was 11. Got my first dan at 16, and, while not the only one, or the youngest, I was somewhat anomalous back in 1976, as I should have been...........separate issue, though.....


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## Tez3 (Oct 6, 2009)

I'm all for children training not just in martial arts but sports too. The other concern I have is that these days children are expected to grow up fast and don't spend time as children anymore enjoying playing, having no responsibilities ( don't they come quick enough as it is?) learning and generally being children. Having a BB means responsibilites and being a certain standard, should we inflict this on young children? Isn't it rather cruel to not let them stay lower grades for a while, having fun exploring thier martial arts, working stuff out for themselves? Why burden them with a blackbelt, in my mind it's not a reward for children, it's for the parents. When our kids spar they don't actually care who wins or loses, winning is a momentary pleasure and losing a momentary sorrow, they enjoy the physical exuberance of sparring, thats how it should be for children. They should learn the discipline and dedication needed to be a good martial artist almost by osmosis. Learning from the seniors how to behave and then behaving correctly because they know it's the right thing to do and because they want to! I know it doesn't always happen that way, it's a misery if you have to keep on at a child but oh the joy when they behave correctly because they know that's what they should do. 
Many things are better for waiting and are more enjoyable done when ones an adult, grading for blackbelt is one of those things. It's said the sign of a mature adult is when one can wait for something pleasurable, sounds about the right time to grade for black though I wouldn't say the grading itself was a pleasure. However afterwards the sheer relief, pleasure and sense of achievement I think can only be grasped by an adult. The door that opens with a blackbelt should be scary, exhilarating and be approached with a sense of wonder. It should also be marked 'For Adults Only'
Elder, we have one 16 year old who could if he'd studied TMA be a very good BB, he's mature, can teach well (adults too) and is a well respected member of our MMA fight team so I don't rule out 16 year olds at all. We'll lose him soon though, he's trying for an apprenticeship in the RAF as an avionics engineer, that'll please his dad who's in the Scots Guards lol!


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## TKD_Father (Oct 6, 2009)

Tez3 said:
			
		

> As this is the internet (no really?) the temptation to jump in and condemn people is so, well, tempting, and TKD Father you seem to jump in with both feet immediately without waiting to see what's actually transpired.


Which is the nature of posting in forums. Someone makes comments, someone else responds to those comments. Everything that I've said in this thread are a direct result of the original poster's (Terry's) comments.



			
				Tez3 said:
			
		

> I won't take any blackbelt seriously who's under the age of at least 20...
> 
> Took me nine years to get my belt and I'll likely be a 1st Dan forever, childrens BB devalue the work I put in and others like me.


Well good for you. That thread is locked. This thread is about dealing with parents, not about the age of black belts. Nice to see that you stuck with it.



			
				elder999 said:
			
		

> *I don't have "customers."*


You can refer to parents however you'd like. I use the term customers because providing a product or service to someone, well that makes them a consumer or customer.



			
				elder999 said:
			
		

> separate issue, though.....


Why yes, yes it is.

Missed your last post Tez3, but looks like more off topic stuff. I believe the moderation here frowns on trying to continue locked posts by derailing an existing topic.


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## Tez3 (Oct 6, 2009)

TKD_Father said:


> Which is the nature of posting in forums. Someone makes comments, someone else responds to those comments. Everything that I've said in this thread are a direct result of the original poster's (Terry's) comments.
> 
> 
> Well good for you. That thread is locked. This thread is about dealing with parents, not about the age of black belts. Nice to see that you stuck with it.
> ...


 

Woohoo told off!

Not in the least off topic but a post of how to deal with parents and children, *I haven't read the thread that is locked as I've been away*, only came back last night so please don't start attributing things to me that you can't hold up and please don't lecture me, it's really not appreciated.
Responding to topics is usually done in a polite manner not a hectoring one, hector me and I will not appreciate it.

Just looked at the locked thread...you think I'm going to read all those pages when I've got unpacking, washing etc to do you are joking! Perhaps you're manner *is* joking though I only have this thread to see your posts which are very judgemental, why are you so bothered about the age of blackbelts? Guess I must have missed something!


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## TKD_Father (Oct 6, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Woohoo told off!
> 
> Not in the least off topic but a post of how to deal with parents and children, *I haven't read the thread that is locked as I've been away*, only came back last night so please don't start attributing things to me that you can't hold up and please don't lecture me, it's really not appreciated.
> Responding to topics is usually done in a polite manner not a hectoring one, hector me and I will not appreciate it.


But before you told me



			
				Tez3 said:
			
		

> TKD Father you seem to jump in with both feet immediately without waiting to see what's actually transpired.


So your responding without "waiting to see what's actually transpired"?



			
				Tez3 said:
			
		

> Responding to topics is usually done in a polite manner not a hectoring one, hector me and I will not appreciate it.


I learned a word today! I don't think my reply concerning you has been either _b) to treat with insolence; bully; torment:, c) to act in a blustering, domineering way , and certainly not a) he eldest son of Priam and husband of Andromache_. I'm sorry you feel that way, it's not my intent at all.

The topic concerns "Parents in the Dojang" and not whether or not children should have black belts.


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## Tez3 (Oct 6, 2009)

TKD_Father said:


> But before you told me
> 
> 
> So your responding without "waiting to see what's actually transpired"?
> ...


 
Stick with me mucker and you will learn lots of new words lol! I have a very wide vocabulary........ 
Haven't the foggiest what you are talking about when you say I'm jumping in without waiting to see what transpired, I was just commenting on your post on this thread not any other. Just thought you seemed keen to criticise Terry on here about his actions which to me seemed fine and even if I didn't think it was, it's not for me to say it shouldn't have gone that far. You were putting my comments **** about face there.                                           

I don't have customers, we have students. We don't provide a service we teach and fight. 

Priam's son was Hector, proper noun with a capital H.


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## MJS (Oct 6, 2009)

2 Mod warnings and a nudge, both of which seem to have been missed.  

Folks,

Between this thread and the other, which is now reopened, the forum mods have dealt with a number of reported posts.  That being said....

If you want to talk about how to deal with parents who cause disruption in your school, do it here.  If you want to talk about kids and rank, do it in the other thread.  I am requesting that all members follow the forum rules.  If you can't post without taking a shot at someone else, then refrain from posting, until you can do so within the scope of the rules.

Mike Slosek
MT Asst. Admin


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## miguksaram (Oct 6, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Took me nine years to get my belt and I'll likely be a 1st Dan forever, childrens BB devalue the work I put in and others like me.


How?  Are you that hung up on other's people progress or lack there of that you feel you are devalued by their actions?  I mean seriously.  If you got a BB after nine years and then some child from the same school got a BB do you really feel that your BB is now devalued? 

We just had a BB test at our school.  It was the first official Jr. BB test that our instructor had.  One of the kids there was 9 year old.  I can garauntee that what he went through in the 4 hour test (from bow in unitl completion) was more than most of these "adult" black belts went through in their 30 minute test.  

I guess I just don't understand why people base the value of their training on someone else's accomplishments.


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## Tez3 (Oct 6, 2009)

I haven't as I said read the other thread, I've only been back a little over a day after being away for over 12 days and I don't have a laptop. I was commenting purely on this thread and nothing else but if thats me censured so be it. I wasn't continuing any other thread, this is only one of about three I've read. Ranking children, disruptive parents, mcDojos are to me a recurrent theme in many posts as they are issues that worry many of us. To me it's to do with parent's expectations which influences how those parents behave in a class, if they thinking they are paying for their children to be blackbelts they will assume they have a greater control over the instructors than they have, hence perhaps Terry's problem with demanding and unco-operative parents.
However as it seems I'm guilty of continuing a thread I haven't either read or commented on I think I've outstayed my welcome here at MT  I can take the hint when I'm not welcome here anymore.


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## Tez3 (Oct 6, 2009)

miguksaram said:


> How? Are you that hung up on other's people progress or lack there of that you feel you are devalued by their actions? I mean seriously. If you got a BB after nine years and then some child from the same school got a BB do you really feel that your BB is now devalued?
> 
> We just had a BB test at our school. It was the first official Jr. BB test that our instructor had. One of the kids there was 9 year old. I can garauntee that what he went through in the 4 hour test (from bow in unitl completion) was more than most of these "adult" black belts went through in their 30 minute test.
> 
> I guess I just don't understand why people base the value of their training on someone else's accomplishments.


 
Oh great, we'll just discuss my supposed hang ups now and make me really sure I need to leave MT.

No child gets his blackbelt from the same 'school' as I did. We don't have a school, we are just a martial arts club which doesn't do child's blackbelts. My blackbelt test went on for just over 12 hours.


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## shesulsa (Oct 6, 2009)

Good grief!

The customer mentality has been long lost and I personally think it is little more than an extension of a courteous relationship.  These folks could put their kids in any school - they picked yours.  Be courteous to them.  It is *their* money you are taking.

Then, in return, give them what they are paying for - an environment where respect and consideration are the golden rules for conduct expected from anyone and everyone walking through the door, give quality instruction and don't sell rank like most TKD schools do. 

(sorry - had to say it)

Have a plan for coping with parental issues - I like to have a meet & greet class where this is discussed like elder999 does.  Know who you have to kick out and why and cover your ***.

That is all.


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## Tez3 (Oct 6, 2009)

We are all members of a club (we aren't allowed to a 'school' or commercial business), the rules of the club are explained to everyone this includes as we are a military establishment the rules on actions to be taken in case of fire,accident or attack on the site ( not unknown when the IRA was more active and would lob mortars over the fenceline, they are still active but not so much now). We only pay enough to cover the insurance, kit and repair of current kit, cleaning materials etc. Parents aren't paying for tuition, just upkeep...housekeeping if you like.


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## miguksaram (Oct 6, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Oh great, we'll just discuss my supposed hang ups now and make me really sure I need to leave MT.
> 
> No child gets his blackbelt from the same 'school' as I did. We don't have a school, we are just a martial arts club which doesn't do child's blackbelts. My blackbelt test went on for just over 12 hours.


Great...that was a great answer to something other than the question I asked.  However, reading from the mods to keep this on track (after I made my previous post), perhaps you could place your answer in the other thread about children black belts.


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## miguksaram (Oct 6, 2009)

shesulsa said:


> Good grief!
> 
> The customer mentality has been long lost and I personally think it is little more than an extension of a courteous relationship. These folks could put their kids in any school - they picked yours. Be courteous to them. It is *their* money you are taking.


 
Customer is defined as a person or business that purchases a commodity or service.  As instructors we are providing a service.  So unless you not being paid by the student (or parent in this case), they are customers.  Yes, you are a bit more personal with these customers but they are customers none the less.  Just because you EARN their money through the service you provide, it does not give them the right to just do as they please in your school.

We currently have a situation in our school where a parent will drop their kid off and then go to the bar across the way and then come back intoxicated.  He then proceeds to sideline coach his kid.  We are now in the midst of taking care of the situation but it may end up where either the wife drops the kid or the kid doesn't come back if he is going to be the only one bringing him.


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## shesulsa (Oct 6, 2009)

miguksaram said:


> Just because you EARN their money through the service you provide, it does not give them the right to just do as they please in your school.



Agreed!



> We currently have a situation in our school where a parent will drop their kid off and then go to the bar across the way and then come back intoxicated.  He then proceeds to sideline coach his kid.  We are now in the midst of taking care of the situation but it may end up where either the wife drops the kid or the kid doesn't come back if he is going to be the only one bringing him.



That's a whole other issue, really, but definitely worth discussing.


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## granfire (Oct 6, 2009)

miguksaram said:


> We currently have a situation in our school where a parent will drop their kid off and then go to the bar across the way and then come back intoxicated.  He then proceeds to sideline coach his kid.  We are now in the midst of taking care of the situation but it may end up where either the wife drops the kid or the kid doesn't come back if he is going to be the only one bringing him.



Ouch, not to mention the trouble you might get in knowign this person is drunk and driving off in his car, with the child.

One moment were I have to say I like the ITA policy of no alcohol on the grounds, which pretty much includes the parking lot.


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## miguksaram (Oct 6, 2009)

granfire said:


> Ouch, not to mention the trouble you might get in knowign this person is drunk and driving off in his car, with the child.
> 
> One moment were I have to say I like the ITA policy of no alcohol on the grounds, which pretty much includes the parking lot.


 
Right.  As it stands we are sending an email to the father asking him to refrain from drinking if he is going to enter our school.  If we feel he is of danger to himself or his child we will contact the authorities.


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## Tez3 (Oct 6, 2009)

miguksaram said:


> Great...that was a great answer to something other than the question I asked. However, reading from the mods to keep this on track (after I made my previous post), perhaps you could place your answer in the other thread about children black belts.


 

What on earth have I done to upset you so much you have to attack me?

 I happen to think that giving away/'selling' belts undermines the value for those who earn them. My opinion merely, there's no call to be calling me names about it, I might be wrong or your opinion is different but I'm not calling you insecure or anything. 
As I keep saying I haven't read the other thread...20+ pages long yet, so have no idea why you are all so upset. I mentioned children and everyones up in arms? and I'm not going to post in a thread where I haven't read anything.


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## miguksaram (Oct 7, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> What on earth have I done to upset you so much you have to attack me?
> 
> I happen to think that giving away/'selling' belts undermines the value for those who earn them. My opinion merely, there's no call to be calling me names about it, I might be wrong or your opinion is different but I'm not calling you insecure or anything.
> As I keep saying I haven't read the other thread...20+ pages long yet, so have no idea why you are all so upset. I mentioned children and everyones up in arms? and I'm not going to post in a thread where I haven't read anything.


Ok...first off, I am anything but upset.  So with that said, I asked a question and you gave an answer that, in my opinoin, didn't answer the question, so I am asking for you to answer again.  This is not an attack.  At no time did I say that answer was stupid or that you were insecure.  I said it answered something else, not the question I originally asked.

Secondly...please point out where I called you a name or called you insecured.  What I asked is if you were really that hung up about other people's accomplishments or lack thereof that you need to base the value of your own accomplishment accordingly.  

Yes some people are up in arms about kids.  So if you are going to bring the topic up or speak an opinoin, the you best be ready to defend it with some sort of logic.  And lastly, the thread that I mentioned deals specifically on the topic we are discussing now.


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## Tez3 (Oct 7, 2009)

miguksaram said:


> Ok...first off, I am anything but upset. So with that said, I asked a question and you gave an answer that, in my opinoin, didn't answer the question, so I am asking for you to answer again. This is not an attack. At no time did I say that answer was stupid or that you were insecure. I said it answered something else, not the question I originally asked.
> 
> Secondly...please point out where I called you a name or called you insecured. What I asked is if you were really that hung up about other people's accomplishments or lack thereof that you need to base the value of your own accomplishment accordingly.
> 
> Yes some people are up in arms about kids. So if you are going to bring the topic up or speak an opinoin, the you best be ready to defend it with some sort of logic. And lastly, the thread that I mentioned deals specifically on the topic we are discussing now.


 

Why do I have to offer logic for something I _feel_? since when did feelings and opinions have to be logical, I gave my opinion and said what I felt, you read it the wrong way, I didn't write what I felt the wrong way! You don't have to like, appreciate or in any way endorse my feelings about this subject. if you don't like my answers I can't help that either. I write honestly, without pretence and as I see things, obviously my views and others aren't going to be the same. I really can't see why all this has to be so 'in your face'.

You actually started a whole new thread based on your answer to me which suggested I must be insecure because I base my performance on others.... which actually I don't and in fact on that thread others have argued more eloquently than I about the subject and those views echo mine. I'm refraining from posting on that thread because I feel quite strongly you are getting at me with it. I guess that will confirm now your thoughts of my 'insecurities'.


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## TKD_Father (Oct 7, 2009)

Tez3 said:
			
		

> Why do I have to offer logic for something I _feel_?



I feel that all my post will now begin with the phrase "I feel". :boing1:


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## Tez3 (Oct 7, 2009)

TKD_Father said:


> I feel that all my post will now begin with the phrase "I feel". :boing1:


 

My, my, we can't all be automatons you know, feelings are what makes me a good mother, a good wife and a good instructor ( and that's only the things I can print here!) oh makes me quite good at my job too and as a bonus a feeling for detecting BS comes with it.


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## Gorilla (Oct 7, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> I haven't as I said read the other thread, I've only been back a little over a day after being away for over 12 days and I don't have a laptop. I was commenting purely on this thread and nothing else but if thats me censured so be it. I wasn't continuing any other thread, this is only one of about three I've read. Ranking children, disruptive parents, mcDojos are to me a recurrent theme in many posts as they are issues that worry many of us. To me it's to do with parent's expectations which influences how those parents behave in a class, if they thinking they are paying for their children to be blackbelts they will assume they have a greater control over the instructors than they have, hence perhaps Terry's problem with demanding and unco-operative parents.
> However as it seems I'm guilty of continuing a thread I haven't either read or commented on I think I've outstayed my welcome here at MT  I can take the hint when I'm not welcome here anymore.



I like your posts!!! I mostly don't agree with them...but folks like you keep MT interesting...So don't take your ball and go home(american saying)...you would be acting like a 12 year old and then you would not be worthy of your black belt...I hope you take this in the matter in which it was intended(just a little humor to cut the tension)


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## Tez3 (Oct 7, 2009)

Gorilla said:


> I like your posts!!! I mostly don't agree with them...but folks like you keep MT interesting...So don't take your ball and go home(american saying)...you would be acting like a 12 year old and then you would not be worthy of your black belt...I hope you take this in the matter in which it was intended(just a little humor to cut the tension)


 
Thank you! I'm what they call an emotional poster lol, I just say what I think and mean, I don't clutter it up with logic, for crying out loud I'm a woman!! I just talk from my own experience (that means I'm always right rofl) but I try hard not to talk from others.
I'd love to act like a 12 year old tbh, I've got to the age where I really want the numbers to be going the other way. I've just had a lovely break in very sunny Cornwall, come back, have a look at the new threads, post up as usual on the one or two I fancied reading ( no, I don't stick to one art, being MMA mostly, I reckon the mixed bit means I can poke my nose in anywhere) and some people seem to have had a right sad on especially the sprogs (squaddie talk lol)! 

Probably the main reason I don't think kids should have their full blackbelts as kids is because I believe that with the belt comes responsibilities and work such as teaching, I'm sure there's many kids who can shoulder them well plus teach competently but should they? Can't we just let kids enjoy being kids?
The reason I see this tied into problems with parents is that often its the parents who want the grades more, rightly they want good things for their children and will push for those things, they pay the instructors and they believe this gives them a certain ownership over the proceedings. this makes parents difficult to deal with, you can understand where they are coming from as a parent but you also want to say hey just let the kids enjoy what they are doing, that's a reward in it's self. Of course there's the obnoxious ones but you can do what I do, use them as ukes lol!


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## Gorilla (Oct 7, 2009)

I am not one of the parents you describe


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## Tez3 (Oct 7, 2009)

Gorilla said:


> I am not one of the parents you describe


 
I guessed that! 
It's not just in martial arts it's generally, 10 year old girls are going to have facials done, their nails manicured and wearing makeup outside as if they were adults etc. Clothes are almost provocative, we had a thing here which lucklily a group of parents campaigned to stop, of shops selling sexy underwear for young children. the children are being pushed constantly to be minature adults and it worries me, I don't want them to be stressed about gradings in martial arts, for them it should be fun and _preparation_. I don't like to see children teaching classes, helping others along no problem but why make them into little adults? 
I do think blackbelts should be able to fight and to take classes and that parents should if not literally bow to them at least understand that if they want their children to be respectful etc they need to be in the first place. Children will, obviously, copy their parents. The parent who rants or disrespects the instructor in front of the class is going to have their children and probably others do it too, hence I think Terry was right to protest even at what seems a small thing going on while he's teaching.


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## Gorilla (Oct 7, 2009)

Terry was 100% right.  He has his own kids and I am sure that he takes the decision to remove a student from his school because of the actions of a parent very seriously.


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## Tez3 (Oct 7, 2009)

Gorilla said:


> Terry was 100% right. He has his own kids and I am sure that he takes the decision to remove a student from his school because of the actions of a parent very seriously.


 
Absolutely! Sometimes hard decisions have to be made and the right thing done, not a popular thought these days.


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## miguksaram (Oct 8, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Why do I have to offer logic for something I _feel_? since when did feelings and opinions have to be logical, I gave my opinion and said what I felt, you read it the wrong way, I didn't write what I felt the wrong way! You don't have to like, appreciate or in any way endorse my feelings about this subject. if you don't like my answers I can't help that either. I write honestly, without pretence and as I see things, obviously my views and others aren't going to be the same. I really can't see why all this has to be so 'in your face'.
> 
> You actually started a whole new thread based on your answer to me which suggested I must be insecure because I base my performance on others.... which actually I don't and in fact on that thread others have argued more eloquently than I about the subject and those views echo mine. I'm refraining from posting on that thread because I feel quite strongly you are getting at me with it. I guess that will confirm now your thoughts of my 'insecurities'.


 
Ok...exlplain how one person can "feel" something without any reasoning behind the emotion.  How can you develope an opinion on something without reason?  That makes no sense.  You have some sort of logic behind what it is that drives you to the opinion.  It has nothing to do with me agreeing or disagreeing, it has to do with explain how you arrived at your opinion.  You haven't even given answer to my question for me to like or dislike.

Yes, I did start a new thread based on this simply because you are not the only person who has uttered this feeling.  However others have explained their reasoning behind why they feel this way.  So sorry to break this to you but my posting of new threads do not revolve around getting at you.


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## KELLYG (Oct 8, 2009)

Tez,
I have always appreciated you comments.  Even if I do not agree with them they always get me thinking.  

miguksaram
Not every decision or opinion has to be based on pure logic.  We as humans are not Vulcans >"Star Trek" reference.<
Tez has a right to speak her mind on any subject in any manner that pleases her as long as the Board rules are followed.  You also have the same rights as she does.


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## Tez3 (Oct 8, 2009)

miguksaram said:


> Ok...exlplain how one person can "feel" something without any reasoning behind the emotion. How can you develope an opinion on something without reason? That makes no sense. You have some sort of logic behind what it is that drives you to the opinion. It has nothing to do with me agreeing or disagreeing, it has to do with explain how you arrived at your opinion. You haven't even given answer to my question for me to like or dislike.
> 
> Yes, I did start a new thread based on this simply because you are not the only person who has uttered this feeling. However others have explained their reasoning behind why they feel this way. So sorry to break this to you but my posting of new threads do not revolve around getting at you.


 
I guess your posts just turn out tetchy with me then. I suppose I just rub you up the wrong way, it happens.
You have assumed wrongly as it turns out that I base how well or not I do based on others accomplishments, so anything I do say won't make much sense to you after that. Others have explained how I feel about the subject much better than I have, Dancingalone's posts are excellent in my view and express how it is for many of us far better than I could or would attempt to.

Kelly, what a boring world it would be if we all agreed on everything lol! It's brilliant to be able to swap ideas, thoughts and views on things. Different cultures have different ways of looking at things, I'm wondering if perhaps Americans are more used to commercial martial arts than Europeans? We of course have schools for money etc but the cliche of course is America as a very commercial place whereas we tend to bumble along more as amateurs? I don't know if thats a fair assumption but it does seem you have bigger schools and classes than we do.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 8, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Different cultures have different ways of looking at things, I'm wondering if perhaps Americans are more used to commercial martial arts than Europeans?


We pretty much are used to commercial *everything*.  Each and every good idea that hits these shores is commercialized.

Every culture has things that they do discinctly well and better than most other cultures.  Usually, it is the things that they are known for.  America's single most unsurpassed ability is to systematize and commercialize anything.  We have other things that we do well, but of everything, I would say that it is this ability to package and commercialize even the absurd and to do it better than anyone else that we are best known for.  

It is a blessing and a curse.  A blessing because it actually brings ideas that would otherwise remain obscure to vast numbers of people. 

A curse because in the process, we usually homogenize whatever it is that we are commericalizing to such an extent that it loses some of what made it special in the first place.

Having said that, I do not feel that Europeans bumble along as amateurs.  I do think that Europeans generally have better restraint in this area than we do.

Daniel


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## KELLYG (Oct 8, 2009)

"I'm wondering if perhaps Americans are more used to commercial martial arts than Europeans? We of course have schools for money etc but the cliche of course is America as a very commercial place whereas we tend to bumble along more as amateurs? I don't know if thats a fair assumption but it does seem you have bigger schools and classes than we do. "

Tez,  
I take Martial Arts at a commercial school so that is all that I know.  In that school you develop friends or a core group of training partners and we as a group kinda bumble around with as well.  I usually take a class that has mostly has adults in it and the structure is more relaxed so that we can experiment with a technique and feel free to help a fellow student that may have problems with a technique.  We will also get together outside the class room as well for a good old fashioned bull session.


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## miguksaram (Oct 8, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> I guess your posts just turn out tetchy with me then. I suppose I just rub you up the wrong way, it happens.


 
Honestly, you think way too much of yourself if you think you are rubbing me the wrong way.  Heck, even TF doesn't even rub me the wrong way and he has the tactfullness of a monkey flinging poo at the local zoo. ha.haha.



> You have assumed wrongly as it turns out that I base how well or not I do based on others accomplishments, so anything I do say won't make much sense to you after that.


That's the thing, I haven't assumed anything.  I asked you a question. If I assumed something, then why on earth would I ask you a question?



> Others have explained how I feel about the subject much better than I have, Dancingalone's posts are excellent in my view and express how it is for many of us far better than I could or would attempt to.


 
Yes, they have explained but they explained their particular view point.  They did not say it was your view point as well.  If it is why not just put it in your own words and use their answer as yours?


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## Tez3 (Oct 8, 2009)

miguksaram said:


> Honestly, you think way too much of yourself if you think you are rubbing me the wrong way. Heck, even TF doesn't even rub me the wrong way and he has the tactfullness of a monkey flinging poo at the local zoo. ha.haha.
> 
> 
> That's the thing, I haven't assumed anything. I asked you a question. If I assumed something, then why on earth would I ask you a question?
> ...


 

:lol:

I'm sorry mate but methinks you protest too much and spend far too much time cogitating on my posts!


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## Gorilla (Oct 8, 2009)

"Honestly, you think way too much of yourself if you think you are rubbing me the wrong way. *Heck, even TF doesn't even rub me the wrong way and he has the tactfullness of a monkey flinging poo at the local zoo. ha.haha." * MIGUKSARAM

Now that is funny!!!


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## Gorilla (Oct 8, 2009)

Sorry about the stutter


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## Jade Tigress (Oct 9, 2009)

Gorilla said:


> Sorry about the stutter



Fixed.


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## miguksaram (Oct 12, 2009)

KELLYG said:


> miguksaram
> Not every decision or opinion has to be based on pure logic. We as humans are not Vulcans >"Star Trek" reference.<
> Tez has a right to speak her mind on any subject in any manner that pleases her as long as the Board rules are followed. You also have the same rights as she does.


 
I disagree, there has to be some sort of reasoning behind feelings.  How can one just arbitrarily feel?  One of the items that seperates us in the animal kingdom is our capicity for reason.  

Are you saying that I can just hit someone without reason, simply because today I don't like them?  Or I can simply utter the phrase all taekwondo people are worthless fighters, without any reason outside of that is just how I feel?  Following that thought process I can wake up tomorrow and say all taekwondo people are great fighters because today that is just how I feel?  Sorry...that just doesn't make any real since.


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## miguksaram (Oct 12, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> :lol:
> 
> I'm sorry mate but methinks you protest too much and spend far too much time cogitating on my posts!


 
Protesting what? You have given me nothing to protest...~sigh~ Whatever.


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## bluekey88 (Oct 12, 2009)

miguksaram said:


> I disagree, there has to be some sort of reasoning behind feelings. How can one just arbitrarily feel? One of the items that seperates us in the animal kingdom is our capicity for reason.
> 
> Are you saying that I can just hit someone without reason, simply because today I don't like them? Or I can simply utter the phrase all taekwondo people are worthless fighters, without any reason outside of that is just how I feel? Following that thought process I can wake up tomorrow and say all taekwondo people are great fighters because today that is just how I feel? Sorry...that just doesn't make any real since.


 
Yet, that's pretty much how it works.  We tend to feel before we think.  Lots of research has been done, and the integration of the body as a whpe; with brainproceses that we call "mind" are very complicated.  essentially, there is no mind seperate from body (although it seems to be that way).  It also seems to be that thoughts control emotions...which they do, but only after the fact.  That is, we feel an emotional response to something...this tends to come from the earlier developing (more "primitive" sections of our brain.  the Forntal cortex that deals with planning and the like, the logic centers then interprets that and we can then identify the source of the emotion...the nature of the emotion (as many physical signals cover similar emotions,, for example, fear, anger, and sexual arousal share similar physiological responses, and it is the stimuli that differentiate whether we run from a lion, hit an aggressor, or wolf whistle at an attractive young lady).

In short, we are wired to feel first, then interpret those feelings and act accordingly.  It is learning and expereince that then shape how we express our emotions behaviorally.  This mechanism is one of the main factors behind many anxiety disorders.  Misattributions of phsyiolgical repsonses to stimuli that get interpreted as fear (called a panic attack). get hooked onto all sorts of things and even the fear of having an attack then can lead to things like social avoidance and agoraphobia.  But it is because people feel first, then interpret those felign logically later...and if signals get crossed, what results is irrational behavior.

In my work, I oftne have to teach my young clients what anger, fear, etc. feel like before I can work with them on hwo to handle specific situations.  they can do all the right things to manage stressful situations in my office.  But in the situation they'd still blow up.  Why?  Because they didn't recognize the onset of the emotion in tie to access the strategies necessary to deal with it.  Once they learned how to identify theur own emotions, then the logical stuff that works to control the behaviors resulting from that emotion can be used.

Sorry for the long OT post.  It's an area of interest for me.

Peac,e
Erik


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## Tez3 (Oct 12, 2009)

miguksaram said:


> Protesting what? You have given me nothing to protest...~sigh~ Whatever.


 
Shakespeare, dear boy, Shakespeare, has a quote for everything.

If reason had anything to do with who we fall in love with, very few people would fall in love and besides who wants reason to rear it;s ugly head. Reason has little to do with a great many feelings we have, reason would tell us a great many things that our feelings would have none of. reason and doctors told my friend he'd never walk again, luckily he listened to his feelings and he does walk. Reason would allow us no passion, no glorious feelings of love for people and things that reason says we shouldn't. Reason would say put a severely handicapped child in care but parents don't they try well beyond what reason would dictate to give their children a good life. 
Go through life allowing reason to win everytime and you will miss so much. There's no reason we should love beautiful flowers, or wonderful smells, there's no reason for us to want beauty and lovely things around us but we do because we feel it's right.

Did you know the word 'whatever' has just been voted the most annoying word in the language here? It's a chav word ROFL! these are chavs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXRbfCurbAE&feature=related


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## granfire (Oct 12, 2009)

are you at least serving popcorn and soda?

Sheesh you 2 fight worse than a bunch of middle aged hormonal women around fool moon!


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## miguksaram (Oct 12, 2009)

bluekey88 said:


> Yet, that's pretty much how it works. We tend to feel before we think. Lots of research has been done, and the integration of the body as a whpe; with brainproceses that we call "mind" are very complicated. essentially, there is no mind seperate from body (although it seems to be that way). It also seems to be that thoughts control emotions...which they do, but only after the fact....


 
Excellent post and thank you.  So at what point should thoughts come into play to justify the feeling, regardless if the thoughts themselves are rational or not?

I can agree that we can have a instant feeling without the process of reasoning, but I also believe that there has to be a time that reasoning should come into play to justify that feeling.


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## miguksaram (Oct 12, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Shakespeare, dear boy, Shakespeare, has a quote for everything.





			
				Shakespear said:
			
		

> The lady doth protest too much, methinks


Hamlet Act 3 Scene 2....Yes, I am quite familiar with Shakespear.

So I end it with this





			
				Shakespear ~Romeo & Juliet Act 2 Scene 4 said:
			
		

> Nay, if our wits run the wild-goose chase, I am done; for thou hast more of the wild goose in one of thy wits than, I am sure, I have in my whole five.


Annnnnd scene.


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## Gorilla (Oct 12, 2009)

Hamlet on a TKD forum!!! What is the world coming tooooooooo!!!!!


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## jks9199 (Oct 12, 2009)

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please return to the original topic.

jks9199
Sr. Moderator


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## Tez3 (Oct 13, 2009)

granfire said:


> are you at least serving popcorn and soda?
> 
> Sheesh you 2 fight worse than a bunch of middle aged hormonal women around fool moon!


 
You say that like it's a bad thing.... and of course you do realise I am a middle aged hormonal woman don't you? ( I could call insult on your post) So why you are expecting logic and reason I really don't know.


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## granfire (Oct 13, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> You say that like it's a bad thing.... and of course you do realise I am a middle aged hormonal woman don't you? ( I could call insult on your post) So why you are expecting logic and reason I really don't know.




But is your counter part a middle aged hormonal woman?! (besides, so am I)

And I forgot what you were fighting about....no wait...what?


(ah crap, now the original theme is completely derailed)


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## Shaderon (Oct 13, 2009)

Back to the original post theme....

No wonder our Association has a strict rule of "No parents watching".

Our Master has a strong opinion that parents and guardians should not be allowed to sit and watch past the first lesson and I agree with him totally.

We allow it on occasions for mitigating circumstances but on the whole our kids are better without them there and we have a whole lot les hassle from parents.   We also use other people's premises and just rent rooms for the classes so if anyone moves anything there tends to be people watching who work for the premises.. eg gym or public leisure centre.  

I can see why now!  I was thinking of getting my own place but after reading this lot.... well I'll probably stick with what I've got.


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## granfire (Oct 13, 2009)

The majority of parents behave. They are not all rabid raving lunatics.

But the kids really do better when they can't see the parents and golly, some parents seem to make it a family outing, mom, dad, grandma and grandpa, the siblings, cousins etc, I mean, surely you folks have something else to do then watch a 6 yo doing his stuff...it's practice, training, not a recidel!

The again, the school location is where you really can't do anything else for the 30 or 45 minutes class is in session, so you sit and watch. (I always suggested to put a coffee shop in...now there is a model shop next door and a furniture place across the street)


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## Laurentkd (Oct 13, 2009)

Shaderon said:


> Back to the original post theme....
> 
> No wonder our Association has a strict rule of "No parents watching".
> 
> ...


 
While I think it would be GREAT to say parents aren't allowed to watch, I would think parents would automatically feel some apprehension and distrust if they were told this. I don't have kids, but I know if I took my nephew to an activity and was then told I couldn't stay and watch him I don't think I'd let him participate.

Now, if you mandate no parents in an advanced kids class, or a tournament team or something where you already have built a relationship and have the parents' trust I can see it. But otherwise.....?????

How does your instructor present the idea? How to parents respond? Again, I think it is a GREAT idea (and I am sure actually better for the child) but I just can't figure out how to pull it off...


edit: my "Dream Dojang" would have a front waiting/viewing area where the parents could watch through a one way mirror, but only students would be allowed past that waiting area (no parents on the floor). And then I'd have an isntructor in the waiting area as parents come and leave to greet them and answer any questions.


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## granfire (Oct 13, 2009)

better yet, have another workout floor for the parents too self concious to train with the kids but can't justify another trip to the Dojang.


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## terryl965 (Oct 13, 2009)

**Update**Update**Update**Update**Update**Update**Update**Update**

Since we last talked the mother has decided to bring her child back under the rules of the school. She has come to relize it was not about her but what was best for her child. They said they tried a couple of schools but it was not the same as being here, so in the end I may have been able to help someone see what the difference is between schools. They will be starting back on Thursday. All things cosider it has ended with something positive for all.


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## ATC (Oct 13, 2009)

terryl965 said:


> **Update**Update**Update**Update**Update**Update**Update**Update**
> 
> Since we last talked the mother has decided to bring her child back under the rules of the school. She has come to relize it was not about her but what was best for her child. They said they tried a couple of schools but it was not the same as being here, so in the end I may have been able to help someone see what the difference is between schools. They will be starting back on Thursday. All things cosider it has ended with something positive for all.


In the end Terry it comes down to the bonds built over time with the child, dojang members, other parents, and most of all the dojang master that makes each studio what it is. Breaking that and trying to build it again is harder than most think. The ones asked to leave that have had the bond building time only understand this once it is gone. It is like trying to get over an ex but harder. If you are not allowed to come back most quit for good. A few move on but they alway hold that place asked to leave in higher regards. Even if their new place is better in a lot of ways.

Glad you could teach a lesson and someone has learned from such lesson.


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## Laurentkd (Oct 13, 2009)

I am glad it worked out so well!
And hopefully now she appreciates what she has and will be a fan rather than a pain.
Looks like you couldn't have hoped for a better outcome- nice job sir!


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## granfire (Oct 13, 2009)

Seems that even adults are not above respecting boundaries which are set and enforced.


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