# Mulitple Oragnizations



## Rich Parsons (Sep 15, 2002)

:soapbox: 
Please excuse my ignorance,

There was mention of Datu Shishir Inocalla was a Ranking Member in multiple Modern Arnis organizations.

So, let me use myself as an example, since I do not personally know Datu Shishir Inocalla, and have only mentioned his name here since it is what made me think about this.

If I was to join let us say one Modern Arnis Organization, for example IMAF INC. - Schea / MOTTS. And then I was to join a Judo organization, no one I know of would have a problem with this. I would have to learn both curriculum and teach both correctly if I had rank to teach in each.

Therefore, what is the problem with me Joining:
IMAF Inc, - Schea/ MOTTS;
WMAA;
WMAC;
DAV (Germany);
MARPIO;
IMAF - Delaney or any other Modern Arnis Organization located anywhere in the world.

I would still, have to learn the curriculum of any of the organizations and teach them properly, to maintain rank and to gain rank (assuming I had improved and deserved it).

So, what is the problem with this???

Is it because I would be disloyal to a previous teacher that may or may not be in any of these organizations?

Is it only political? Is it because I might be sharing secrets from one group to another? In My Opinion, Get Real!

I know I have spouted off here, but I am serious and would like to hear other peoples point of view. Maybe it will help me understand.

Thank you for your time and effort to try and educate me.

Rich
:asian:


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## dearnis.com (Sep 16, 2002)

I think the issue goes beyond that for some people; i.e. if you are ranked as an officer/board member/whatever in an organization isn't your sole duty there?
Remeber that while all the groups are, in their way, keeping the flame alive, they are also competing for the same students for classes, seminars, videos, T-shirts, etc.   At some point there is a conflict of interest.
As a basic level student there isnt really an issue.  For the advanced/lakan level student there should be some cross-training to avoid becoming close-minded or stale.  But an active instructor has some obligation to promote the group he instructs for.  
Chad


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## Mao (Sep 16, 2002)

As has been stated, it would probably not be an issue unless one held a "position" in one of the orgs., and probably then only if they were teaching the same "art".

Guro Dan McConnell
IMAF, inc. board of Directors
Modern Arnis of Ohio


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## Rich Parsons (Sep 16, 2002)

Gentlemen,

Thank you, for your feedback.

My Apologies, but I am still confused. Ok let us say that I am a member of five Modern Arnis organizations, and three of them have me as a member of rank or in a 'position' within their organization.

Of the three, one is Board Of Directors Member in XYZA another is Integrity Chairperson for XYZB and for Technical Steering Board on XYZC.  How is this truly a conflict of interest?
(* Yes, Assume I have no need for a job and can support all equally and have all the money I need also. *)

Do not board members of large companies sit on other boards? Did not a Board Member of Compaq sit on the Board of GM at one time, for an example.

I understand that you might mean the same market. Ok, no one sits on the same Board for Ford and GM. But, this would give them competitive advantage in styling and time to market and advertising. But, in Martial Arts where does this come in? T- Shirt Designs? Dates for Seminars and Camps? Surely Not Techniques?

As for Camps and Seminars if dates overlap or collide then yes there would have to be choices made. Yet, for the same students? Could not more students want to train with all the top people to learn even more go to multiple events?

It is ok for a non ranked student to belong to many. OK we agree.

It is ok for a Lakan/Dayang not holding a title or position with an organization to belong to multiple or to at least cross train with  
to avoid getting stale. OK, we agree

Yet, if you try to donate your time to one or more organizations then you must choose only one? I think people are hurting themselves. You could be loosing prime people to help.

An Example of forcing someone to choose: I was only 5 and was at the bus stop and everyone else was wearing either Maize and Blue or Green and White. It was the Friday before the UofM Vs MSU game. Everyone asked who was my favorite. I said, I do not know. The UofM fans just said, ok No Problem(* I know for some people it is hard to believe, but just wait *). The State Fans said choose MSU or we'll kick your Bu++. Well, of course being the red blooded male I was, I Choose UofM and the Fight was on.

So, when someone comes to me and says, I do not have the integrity to belong to multiple organizations and to make remarks about my character then it makes me think of this example above. They just want one to choose. Either your are with them or you are against them. Very Childish in my Humble Opinion.


Please, this is nothing against Dan and Chad, thanks guys for replying. I hope to hear from others as well.

The reasons I see why their might be a conflict:

1) Time! You are not able to support both the same.
2) Location / Distance - one or multiple organizations are further away than one of the others.
3) An organization has been badly burned before and has a rule against it. I do not agree with it, but I can see it.


The Reasons I see to allow people to try to support more than One:

1) Good people like to help. Technical or organization capabilities are both useful.
2) If there is a distance issue, then you could be getting some good representation in an area where your organization was not as strong before. It works both ways.

I understand it is a business, that needs to make a profit or it will go out off business, yet I seem to be missing something here.
Also, do not be afraid to tell me to just drop it, for I am not getting it. Although Like I said previously I enjoy a good argument / discussion on good topics.

Just my thoughts - I hope to hear yours

Rich


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## Mao (Sep 16, 2002)

Hi Rich,
  Personally, I just think it is a good idea to show some loyalty to the org. that one chooses to represent, that is to say, be on the "Board" to use your example. If one is not in a  "position" then I don't think it matters. If I hold a spot for X company, I don't believe that they would be in favour of me holding a spot on a directly competing company Y. I agree that this is martial arts. Some people run their systems as a business, so naturally there is competition.  I think it would be a conflict of interest to hold a spot with the competition. That is not to say that I couldn't simply train with another group if that were my desire. I might even offer an opinion if I was asked. 
Interesting conversation I agree. For me, it isn't too tough a choice. I like people in other orgs. alot, but I choose to represent only one. 
See, were aren't mortal enemies for having this conversation. I love this.


Guro Dan McConnell
IMAF, inc. Board of Directors
Modern Arnis of Ohio


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## Rich Parsons (Sep 16, 2002)

Hi Dan,

Ok, so from your point of view it is best for you not to belong to multiple organizations.

* I Respect That!*

So, if I wanted to help multiple groups and they accepted it, that would be fine with me. I also understand that I could not give to each what I had said I could, then I could not in good faith continue to be an 'active part' of the group. I could still train with and answer the one shot questions (* As mentioned by the LT *).

If it was an issue of Loyalty to an instructor, then that is also understood. But, this is also individual and unique between each student and teacher.

So, I guess my answer is that for some it is no way, no how. And, for others it is sure no problem. Since, this is all dependant upon the individuals involved, I would expect that it could be handled on a case by case situation.


A new Topic for the Locker Room?
"Why in a nation of Individuals after personal freedoms and rights, and *insist * that their method/way is the best and/or only way."  Note: Dan said "For Me", not "It has to be this way for everyone"

More Opinions would be nice, if people would care to contribute their point of view.

Rich
:asian:


Good  Discussion


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## Bob Hubbard (Sep 16, 2002)

I think part of the problem is that alot of folks think they are the only choice, or real deal or hold some 'uber-secret' to the arts.

Dan has a good point about loyalty.  Rich has good points about multi-memberships too.  My former employer sits on about 10 different boards (along with being ceo of his company).  I sit on 1 board at the moment (my companies) and while I wouldn't have a problem sitting on another (company like mine), others might.  Conflict of interests, etc.

From the student side, I plan on joining a few organizations...whichever ones will help me attain my goals in the arts.  I'm a member of the WMAA...If there was an IMAF (Schea) school within regular reach I'd probably join that organization too.  Heck, if I still lived in Cleveland I'd have already swung down to Columbus and driven Dan nuts (ok, nuts-er). 

Would I join any of the of the groups?  no, as they don't offer me anything, or its too challenging to pull the info out. (Germany's a heck of a commute for example) 

That said, would I join orgs for other arts?  Yes, IF they offered something besides a hole to throw my money into.  Right now, dan ranks, belts, sashes, stripes, etc are less of an interest to me than the knowledge.  To be of worth, the benefits must be used.  If I will not goto a seminar or camp, what good does the member-rate do me?

I think the only reason groups seek to limit cross-memberships is either insecurity, or greed.  In either event, they only hurt their students.

IMHO.
:asian:


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## Mao (Sep 16, 2002)

Kaith,
What part of Cleveland? I spent most of my formative years in a far west suburb of Cleveland.

 As to the conversation, I belong to IMAF, inc. (Shea) as well as the ASU (an aikido org.) and have no problem. For a student, even a dan rank, I think it is o.k. to belong to even sister orgs., just not for someone in a special position. I respect other peoples opinions though.


Guro Dan McConnell
IMAF, inc. Board of Directors
Modern Arnis of Ohio


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## Bob Hubbard (Sep 16, 2002)

I spent almost a year in Parma, and worked in Akron for 4 or 5 months.  Akrons nice...lots of walkways connecting those government blds.  I miss Parma...though the pizza sucked.


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## Mao (Sep 16, 2002)

I should also say that I have always told students that if they are not getting something from me that they need, they should seek it where they can.


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## Mao (Sep 16, 2002)

I lived in Olmstead Falls, my wife in Westpark, still have some family that lives in Parma hgts. and Lakewood.


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## Rich Parsons (Sep 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Mao _
> 
> *I should also say that I have always told students that if they are not getting something from me that they need, they should seek it where they can. *



Dan,

I have always told my students, if you are not happy, then let
me know, and I can help you find the right club / organization.

I think it is the correct thing to do, to help them find the correct art for themselves.

Just my opinion and thoughts

Rich


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## Dan Anderson (Sep 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> 
> *:soapbox:
> Please excuse my ignorance,
> ...



Rich,
There are two key problems here:
 1) Nobody really wants you as a member of their organization so they keep changing their requirements just to keep you out :rofl: _(before anybody begins an internet flame war, Rich and I are friends and he sees the humor...I hope)_, :rofl: 

and 2) you'll go broke paying the membership dues alone not to mention the amount you'll be paying in seminar fees in order to keep your membership and rank certification up to date.   It would be better for you to do what Choki Motobu did in Okinawa (according to Peter Urban's book _The Karate Dojo)_  and that is to go insane, declare yourself 11th dan and the greatest warrior on the planet. :shrug: 

Ahhhhh, now that that is over with, Rich, there is no problem with your joining multiple organizations.  Others might have a problem with you doing so as oone of the reasons organizations exist is to do battle with other organizations.  Hmmmm.  that's why I am so chosey about who I align myself with.  Your own quest for knowledge despite who is affiliated with who is to be lauded.  keep it up.

Yours,
Dan
:asian:


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## Rich Parsons (Oct 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Dan Anderson _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



Thanks Dan I think,  

As to point One, yes it does assume that people would want me in their organization in the first place. I bow to this as a game winning counter.  

As to point number two, I thought I had said assuming I had enough money to maintain it all, but that does not mean it would not be an issue.

As for going Crazy, Been there, Saw the Shrink :rofl: and bought the Divorce Papers.  

Now I think of myself as an eccentric Single Person not a crazy guy.  

To address the 11th Dan issue, the day I qualify for one of those, is the day that hell freezes' over or the Buffalo Bills win the Super Bowl. :rofl: 

Seriously, Thanks to everyone for the discussion.

Rich


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