# The mental benefits of performing hyung?



## Makalakumu (Apr 19, 2007)

In this forum, we've certainly had a lot of discussions surrounding the physical self defense aspects of performing a hyung...and this is certainly important.  However, is there another side?  Can performing a hyung mentally prepare your mind for self defense and/or general betterment?  If so, how?  If not, why?


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## JT_the_Ninja (Apr 20, 2007)

In my mind, just practicing the motions doesn't do much. Practicing a hyung while thinking about what you're doing/could be doing, why you're doing it, and what happens next is what helps. Hyung also help you understand how techniques can be put into combinations, so that fights don't become "you attack, then I attack" situations, where each combatant only does one move at a time. It's certainly no replacement for actual sparring drills/training, but hyung will always be an important part of training. As to mental preparation, if you don't think you have to be focused in order to do a hyung, you're not doing it right.


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## MBuzzy (Apr 20, 2007)

What about in Karate Kid 2 when he wins the fight by performing a kata??  

Seriously though...I feel that performing hyung helps one to learn to focus and concentrate.  While performing it, you must completely clear your mind and focus on nothing else.  If you allow yourself to be distracted, you will falter.  Hyung are a great way of training your mind to focus on nothing else and just complete the task at hand.

Sparring and fighting is the same way - if you are not focused, you will lose.  If you are distracted, you will get hurt.  Hyung trains both your mind and body to respond and be ready to defend yourself.

On a personal note....I have a bad memory.  When I learn a hyung, I notice when I am moving between the different levels of learning....short term memory, long term memory, muscle memory, and understanding.  I've noticed slight improvements in my memory by learning all of these, it keeps my mind active in a way that integrates movement.


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## Shaderon (Apr 20, 2007)

I've had great improvements in my memory since learning patterns.... I've only just realised it since you said MB, but it's definately getting better.   I always practise by thinking about what I am doing in a real live setting, I'm taught to do this after going through the pattern once or twice, and when I do it, it improves my movements a lot.   It actually improves related techniques too without practising them, which must be muscle memory improvment.


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## Muwubu16858 (Apr 20, 2007)

Hyung training is not only good for practicing techniques, and self defense, but also is a very good work out for your body if done correctly. However, I would go looking for trouble anytime soon. No matter how much you practice anyone art, unless fighting comes naturally to you, I would recomend staying far from any fights coming your way....


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## MBuzzy (Apr 20, 2007)

Personally, I never go looking for trouble, but I would agree if that if Hyungs are the only kind of training that you do, it will not prepare you for a self defense situation. 

To completely prepare yourself, it requires a well rounded training program....Hyung is only one aspect of that.


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## Makalakumu (Apr 21, 2007)

When I think about the mental aspects of hyung training, I think that Hwang Kee really nailed alot of this on the button with what he wrote in his text books.  The physical aspects were harder to define, but that is beside the point of this thread.

Please check this out...

*



The Concepts of Forms
By Hwang Kee​​Ancient people had a deep interest in the development of forms as well as a profound understanding of them.  The following is a translation of what is found in the test, Moo Yei Do Bo Tong Ji, author unknown, of the 17th century:

Performing with the hands and feet and conditioning the body is the beginning of the study of the art of Soo Bahk Do (Tang Soo Do).  In actual combat, form does not seem in an obvious way to be a necessary part of the martial arts.  However, practicing forms perfects the ability to perform hand and foot techniques freely.  This is fundamental to making the best use of ones body at all times.

Basic to all martial arts is this: After the basic movements are learned they are applied to and transformed in forms.  As established, traditional and clearly defined sets of steps, jumps, blocks, kicks, punches, and thrusts, each of the forms in our art has a unity and purpose.

Basic forms consist of one block, one thrust or strike and turns patterned to develop control, rhythm, power and speed in the earth integration of basic techniques.  As they progress, the forms become increasingly complex in the variety, combinations and sequence of blocks, kicks, thrusts, jumps and turns.  One advanced form may take years of daily practice and intense concentration to master.  Perfect form, exquisite fusing of mind and body, is a high art and a thing of beauty.  The form is not, however, the whole art in itself.

As an exercise, it is that part of the progression in the art which conditions the mind, body and reflexes for the stresses of free sparring and ultimately for the realities of defensive conflict.  The sequence of moves may simulate responses to many kinds of attacks and strategies for defense against a number of attackers, and the control of ones space in dealing with the direction of attack.

In different forms a discreet number of movements are put together into intricate sequences and varied patterns.  The practitioner cannot remember only the order of the form.  It is more important for him to concentrate on balance, rhythm, breathing control, variation in speed and power control.  It is vital to pay attention to these things so that the form is presented as an approach to a living ideal.  It would be disrespectful to consider that one knows a form simply by virtue of having memorized a series of individual movements.

As in all art we perceive greatness and perfection not by the addition of bits and pieces, not by the analysis of the separate elements that make up the whole, but by a realization that the whole seems greater then the parts.  That realization is intuitive and instantaneous.

If the practitioner makes us aware that the form consists of parts of individual movements, then we witness skill, perhaps, but not art.  Form is the mother body or essence of all aspects of technique in the martial arts.  The practitioner must, therefore, practice his forms with sincerity and a deep commitment to the ideal.  Also, he must practice only those forms for which he is mentally and physically prepared.  It is unreasonable and presumptuous for a white belt to practice a black belt form.  He would gain no understanding of the value, purpose, meaning or unity of the form.  Furthermore, one of the major aspects of mental development and discipline in our art is the master that comes with the habit of accurately perceiving and estimating our individual level of competence and achievement.

The practitioner who over reaches himself does a disservice to himself and to our art.

In summary, to study forms one must be concerned with the application and meaning behind each movement and technique, both offensive and defensive.  Instead of practicing each movement within the form by itself, one should find the meaning behind each movement, the inter-relationship behind each movement, and the inter-relationship of each sequence within a meaningful whole.

If one were to disregard the history, value and concepts of forms, one could develop hundreds of forms with the individual movements available.  That would be, in effect, an attempt to create new ideals, a different philosophy, that would destroy the integrity of our martial art.  The body of traditional forms we have offers more then enough challenge, difficulty and complexity for one lifetime.  Each form has its own character, just as each person does. The elements that make up the character or personality of a form may be understood as follows:


Form Sequence  The proper and correct sequence of moves in a particular form.
Power Control  Command of the release, restraint and relaxation of explosive energy and focused power.
Tension and Relaxation  Master of breathing and timing in the accumulation and release of energy or power.
Speed and Rhythm Control  Coordination and patterning of the moves at rates appropriate to the sub-sequences within the form.
Direction of Movements  Certainty of balance and confidence of step in changing direction.
Spirit or Attitude  Evidence of a sense of calm and humility based on self-knowledge and dedication to the perfect form.  
Power of Technique  Rigor and strength of moves especially evident in equal power of attack and defense.
Understanding Form Technique  Demonstration in the form that the sequence of moves has been internalized and flows with the naturalness and ease of reflex responses, that is, without the obvious intervention of conscious thought.
Distinctive Features of the Form  Evocation in the observer of a vidid awareness of the specific kinds of attack and of the number and direction of attackers for which a particular form is designed.
Perfect Finish  As additional evidence of concentration and control, the last move of the form ends at the starting point and then remains frozen or fixed there until signaled by the referee, judge or teacher.
Precision of Movements  Such accuracy in the execution of a move as reflects the finest logical coordination of balance, distance, power, ability and control.
Intentness  Direction and concentration of the entire attention upon points of power.  The intent eyes communicate both a determination to defend against attacks and a predetermined plan or deliberate design for defense.  Further, the eyes anticipate the intended direction of moves by quick shifts and then concentration of focus upon the point of power.
 
These twelve elements may be used as a basis for evaluating a form and for the study of its improved performance.

Click to expand...

 
What you really have here is a system of hyung training that focues heavily on the internal aspects of hyung training and lightly on the external.  Now, I'm not saying that the criteria that Hwang Kee lays out are invalid, I'm only saying that they evaluate the hyung based most off of aesthetic and esoteric principles.  

Are these unimportant?

I don't think so.  In fact, I would say that applying any exoteric technique requires the proper esoteric training.  The main problem that we face in many karate schools is that they focus on one or the other...*


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## JT_the_Ninja (Apr 21, 2007)

I like this quote from that:



> If one were to disregard the history, value and concepts of forms, one could develop hundreds of forms with the individual movements available. That would be, in effect, an attempt to create new ideals, a different philosophy, that would destroy the integrity of our martial art. The body of traditional forms we have offers more then enough challenge, difficulty and complexity for one lifetime. Each form has its own character, just as each person does.


*

*If even Hwang Kee didn't like the idea of making up new forms, I'm certainly not going to do that. Makes me kinda wonder how he justified his chil sung forms, et al... Not that I'm going to debate with a dead man here, especially one for whom I have respect.


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## JWLuiza (Apr 24, 2007)

JT_the_Ninja said:


> I like this quote from that:
> 
> [/size][/font][/size][/font]*
> 
> *If even Hwang Kee didn't like the idea of making up new forms, I'm certainly not going to do that. Makes me kinda wonder how he justified his chil sung forms, et al... Not that I'm going to debate with a dead man here, especially one for whom I have respect.



Dead men can be wrong   Obviously Hwang Kee also made the yuk ro and Hwa Sun forms.  But there was thought and planning behind the creations.  Most open forms competitors aren't trying to illustrate concepts but are trying to win tournaments... Serious difference.  I think it is a form of naivety to think that only these men who lived thousands of years ago were smart enough to develop forms...  I think not.  The shotokan sochin is a development of Funakoshi's son, The Taeguks and Palgwes are less than 50 years old....  Kushanku could possibly be only in the 100s of years old...

Make forms, try them out... but like writing, don't be afraid of killing your darlings.    And JT, maybe you take the next 30 years to create one truly incredible form... I'd love to see that!  Art is creating not just re-enacting.  Shotokan is also experiencing an explosion of new forms from Asai Sensei... and from all the gossip they are pretty good and add to the training.

And BACK TO the question:  Forms practice for me is a stress releiver.  It clears my mind.


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## JT_the_Ninja (Apr 25, 2007)

JWLuiza said:


> Make forms, try them out... but like writing, don't be afraid of killing your darlings.    And JT, maybe you take the next 30 years to create one truly incredible form... I'd love to see that!  Art is creating not just re-enacting.  Shotokan is also experiencing an explosion of new forms from Asai Sensei... and from all the gossip they are pretty good and add to the training.


Maybe, but then I wouldn't/wouldn't be able to call it TSD. 



> And BACK TO the question:  Forms practice for me is a stress releiver.  It clears my mind.



I will admit that it does feel good to go through a form to get out some energy, relax, and work your muscles. I do it when I'm bored, sometimes, though I try to do it when nobody's looking so I don't look like someone looking for a fight.


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## JWLuiza (Apr 25, 2007)

> But I wouldn't be able to call them Tang Soo Do


Why not?  Tang Soo Do just means karate...which just means open hand... Maybe you couldn't call them Moo Duk Kwan or ITF, but it would still be Tang Soo Do.  It sure wouldn't be ballet or coleslaw!


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## Tlaloc (Apr 25, 2007)

Hmm, interesting debate going on here...


When tradition is ignored, the essential discipline is lost. But when tradition is followed outright, nothing is created, and therefore it is no longer an "art."


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## JT_the_Ninja (Apr 26, 2007)

JWLuiza said:


> Why not?  Tang Soo Do just means karate...which just means open hand... Maybe you couldn't call them Moo Duk Kwan or ITF, but it would still be Tang Soo Do.  It sure wouldn't be ballet or coleslaw!



The name's literal meaning doesn't count for anything here. I'm talking about the art, the tradition. It would still be martial arts, and it might even still be effective, but it wouldn't be TSD, from where I'm sitting.


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## Makalakumu (Apr 26, 2007)

JT_the_Ninja said:


> The name's literal meaning doesn't count for anything here. I'm talking about the art, the tradition. It would still be martial arts, and it might even still be effective, but it wouldn't be TSD, from where I'm sitting.


 
Why is that?  How are you drawing your boundaries for what is TSD and what isn't?  How can you be so sure that something is or isn't TSD?

I'm not asking these questions with the intent to say that EVERYTHING is TSD.  I'm asking them specifically to root out the reasoning behind YOUR assessment.


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## JWLuiza (Apr 26, 2007)

JT_the_Ninja said:


> The name's literal meaning doesn't count for anything here. I'm talking about the art, the tradition. It would still be martial arts, and it might even still be effective, but it wouldn't be TSD, from where I'm sitting.


I'm not trying to pick on you either JT, I'm just asking because the tradition of TSD is in Ryu Pa, a living art.  Hwang Kee made up the Yuk Ro and Chil Sun forms and they are Tang Soo Do/Soo Bahk Do forms.... But Hwang Kee didn't invent Tang Soo Do (just formalized the Moo Duk Kwan interpretation).  If you made a form that was so amazing and exemplified the tenets of tang soo do and masters everywhere decided to make it part of their curriculum, it wouldn't be Tang Soo Do?  What would it be then?


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## MBuzzy (Apr 26, 2007)

In addition, the very basis of a form is that it is a collection of movements in an ordered pattern.  Whether you interpret it as being a collection of basic movements or a series of "encrypted" combinations with complex meanings and interpretations - at the basis, it is a collection of movements.

So if you were to create a new Hyung using all Tang Soo Do techniques, it would still be a TSD Hyung.  As stated, it wouldn't be ITF or Soo Bahk Do...but it would be TSD.  And if not....then are the Il Soo Sik that we do TSD (if they are not formalized by your organization)?  Is a combination during sparring TSD?  I say yes to all of it....because we are using our knowledge of TSD techniques to create them.


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## JT_the_Ninja (Apr 27, 2007)

MBuzzy said:


> So if you were to create a new Hyung using all Tang Soo Do techniques, it would still be a TSD Hyung.  As stated, it wouldn't be ITF or Soo Bahk Do...but it would be TSD.  And if not....then are the Il Soo Sik that we do TSD (if they are not formalized by your organization)?  Is a combination during sparring TSD?  I say yes to all of it....because we are using our knowledge of TSD techniques to create them.



Your argument proceeds from a false premise. You presume that techniques define a style. This is only very tentatively true. I'll paraphrase the legendary Bruce Lee in saying that everyone fights pretty much the same. Humans have two arms, two legs, two hands, two feet. There are only so many possibilities. To say that any particular technique _belongs_ to a style is a very shallow statement, especially to a style like TSD, which doesn't have any of the "Super Golden Knuckle Pinch of the Iron Cobra"-type moves that only look cool in movies. I challenge anyone to see someone doing a punch or kick, sans uniform, and say with certainty what style that person uses. 

So, in answer to your question, I still say that coming up with my own hyung would be me doing my own thing, not TSD. The art is handed down as a tradition. I'm not in any position to add to it.


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## MBuzzy (Apr 27, 2007)

Very good point!  A style is not defined by its techniques.  But how does anything new get added to a style?  What is the criteria for whether new material is called TSD or not?

Also, what is the difference between making your own form and your own Ill Soo Sik?


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## foggymorning162 (Apr 27, 2007)

We actually do classes on occasion were we have to make up our own form, we are usually split into groups of 3 or 4 and we have to work out a pattern practice it then demonstrate it to the rest of the class. It's not something that you do for a tournament nor is it added to the corriculum but making up your own form forces you to put moves together and think about if I do this move and land in this stance what can I do next you have to come up with combinations that work and are fluid and what is a fight but a series of combinations. As for the mental benefits of doing forms I think it can be a type of meditation wether you are physically doing the forms or going through the moves in your head (I do this at work it gets me through some of my more boring jobs).


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## JT_the_Ninja (Apr 28, 2007)

May be fine for you, and I won't deny sometimes just fooling around and connecting moves together, but I still don't like the idea of having students (myself included) making up forms. Pretty much all the techniques you need to know from TSD can be found in its hyung, so adding anything to that is pretty much useless.


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## foggymorning162 (Apr 29, 2007)

I think this has gotten away from the original topic which was the mental benefits. Practicing forms does help you to learn  to put moves together and in my opinion it is also a form of meditation. As for allowing a student to make up forms like I said they aren't added to the corriculum it's just an exercise in learning to connect moves and figuring out what will work together. On the other hand I don't think there is anything wrong with adding to the art of TSD.


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## Tlaloc (Apr 30, 2007)

JT_the_Ninja said:


> May be fine for you, and I won't deny sometimes just fooling around and connecting moves together, but I still don't like the idea of having students (myself included) making up forms. Pretty much all the techniques you need to know from TSD can be found in its hyung, so adding anything to that is pretty much useless.


 
I really respect and to a great deal, share your thoughts on keeping TSD a thing of tradition.

I do feel, however, that to a degree making up "forms" in one way can be beneficial. I've noticed that the downside of the same 4 forms that I know currently over and over again does have a dangerous disadvantage to watch out for. When you lock yourself into the same pattern, you lose your ability to be spontaneous, which can be a problem when your instructor makes you do drills involving random patterns of blocks, kicks, and strikes that you've never really done before. Despite my feeling that making up a form or so can have its benefits for an individual student, I definitely would not want to see TSD being warped by having "Master Joe Smith from Nowheresville, Kentucky's Form 17" be added to the standard TSD cirriculum, if you know what I mean. 

ASIDE: From what I've seen, I get the feeling that alot of students these days don't really understand the full impact of the actual Hyungs- seeing them as just mere patterns of strikes and blocks put together to look really cool. If they were just that, then I'm pretty sure everyone would be learning Bassai Dai by the time they were at orange belt.


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## Makalakumu (Apr 30, 2007)

I've been using my hyungs as a form of meditation and cardio for my daily morning workouts.  I find that if I work my forms one after another with only a breath or two in between, I get a good warm up going.  I also enjoy the difficulty of concentrating on disciplining my mind for that longer period of time.


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## MBuzzy (Apr 30, 2007)

Agreed UpNorthKyosa....My new favorite workout is running through all of my forms back to back in random order.  I find that since I learned them in a specific order and my practice builds based on that (i.e. practice Kicho 1 for 2 months, then practice Kicho 1 AND Kicho 2 for 2 months, then Kicho 1, 2, AND 3 for 2 months...etc), it helps to work them out of order to keep my mind sharp.  I had been running them back back to over and over in the order that I learned them and I realized that after a few months of doing this, it was taking more concentration to do them OUT of order.


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## JT_the_Ninja (Apr 30, 2007)

Tlaloc said:


> I really respect and to a great deal, share your thoughts on keeping TSD a thing of tradition.
> 
> I do feel, however, that to a degree making up "forms" in one way can be beneficial. I've noticed that the downside of the same 4 forms that I know currently over and over again does have a dangerous disadvantage to watch out for. When you lock yourself into the same pattern, you lose your ability to be spontaneous, which can be a problem when your instructor makes you do drills involving random patterns of blocks, kicks, and strikes that you've never really done before. Despite my feeling that making up a form or so can have its benefits for an individual student, I definitely would not want to see TSD being warped by having "Master Joe Smith from Nowheresville, Kentucky's Form 17" be added to the standard TSD cirriculum, if you know what I mean.
> 
> ASIDE: From what I've seen, I get the feeling that alot of students these days don't really understand the full impact of the actual Hyungs- seeing them as just mere patterns of strikes and blocks put together to look really cool. If they were just that, then I'm pretty sure everyone would be learning Bassai Dai by the time they were at orange belt.



Wait till you learn more hyung; you'll start to see that there's a lot more to find each time you perform one. I'm always finding things to tweak and correct in my technique, but I'm also always seeing new things that could follow from any one technique.

Give it time; you'll see why I have such respect for the hyung as they are.


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