# Requiring membership in order to test for belt?



## Moira (Oct 15, 2015)

Hello!  I'm a complete newbie to martial arts and very glad I found this site/forum.  

I'm looking into a Soo Bahk Do school, and am trying to understand why it is that a requirement of belt testing at this school is membership in the U.S. Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan Federation.  (It isn't that they're just out to make a huge profit, because the tuition is extremely reasonable and everything's quite fair.  It also isn't that membership itself is unreasonably priced, as a family membership for a year is something under $200, and even that on top of tuition and the $30 belt testing is still fine.)  

I just didn't think that to take any kind of martial arts lessons -- in any of the arts, karate, kung fu, TKD, etc. -- would necessitate being a member of that particular martial art's main organization/federation.

I've taken a lot of lessons in other areas throughout my life (piano, sewing, ice skating, etc.) yet never had to also join any organization in order to do so.

I'm sure this is a complete newbie and ignorant question, but I felt surely someone here would have an inkling.  Thanks!


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 15, 2015)

Odds are that your rank (Dan ranks almost certainly, and geup ranks possibly) will be issued, recorded, and certified by that org. That means the org will have expenses. That means they have to be paid somehow.


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 15, 2015)

Yeah, it's reasonably common (though far from universal) for ranks to be certified through the larger organization and thus for membership in that organization to be required for ranking.

I'm not a big fan of the approach.  In most cases I think the parent organization doesn't offer good value for what they cost and are really just cash grabs for the people in charge, but that's just my opinion. In many arts, dealing with these organizations is just part of the cost of doing business.


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## Moira (Oct 15, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> Odds are that your rank (Dan ranks almost certainly, and geup ranks possibly) will be issued, recorded, and certified by that org. That means the org will have expenses. That means they have to be paid somehow.



Ah, okay, now I begin to understand more clearly!  What you said here, that the rank is issued/recorded/certified by the org., is exactly what the instructor told me when I asked.

I just somehow didn't get it, still.

Sorry!  I am literally 100% new to all of this.  My husband learned karate (kempo) in high school, but it was a very unofficial set-up, where the students arrived and were taught, and as their skills progressed to the different belt levels, they received the next color belt.  That was just it.  (And up till now, that was the sum total of my knowledge of training in martial arts.)

(1.) So basically this just means that I know that my training is certified and verifiable and standardized?  

(2.) And, is desirable/preferable to train at a place where your rank is issued/recorded/certified by an org., versus just being trained without all of that, like my husband was?  Or does it really not matter either way?

Thanks for clearing this up for me!


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## Moira (Oct 15, 2015)

[QUOTE
I'm not a big fan of the approach.  In most cases I think the parent organization doesn't offer good value for what they cost and are really just cash grabs for the people in charge, but that's just my opinion. In many arts, dealing with these organizations is just part of the cost of doing business.[/QUOTE]


Thanks for the information!  That kind of synchs with my vague impressions as I was learning more about it.  But the instructor is so polite and helpful, and I don't have too many options nearby.  Since his tuition couldn't possibly be any more reasonable than he's already priced it, I'm just going to look at the membership fee as a part of my overall yearly expenses in lessons.  

I really appreciate the explanation!


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## drop bear (Oct 15, 2015)

It is an insurance thing here.


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## jks9199 (Oct 15, 2015)

A black belt is, in a sense, kind of like a college diploma.  It really only means what the school or organization awarding it says and expects it to.  Various college accreditation programs exist, as well as professional organizations as wel, to maintain and establish standards.  In the same way, a martial arts organization sets and maintains standards within that organization.  Membership in the organization serves to maintain ties and standards so that those standards are maintained.  

So... do you need to train somewhere connected to a larger organization?  That's up to you -- and what you want to do with your training.  If you just want to train and "stay small", it doesn't matter at all.  But if you want to travel and train in other clubs, or compete on national or international levels, you may need membership to get in the doors.  In some cases, a black belt around your waist is all they'll see -- but in others, they'll want to know if you are part of their organization.  If your teacher without an organization moves on, quits, gets hurt, or whatever and stops teaching, connections to a larger body are a way to continue your training without starting from scratch, too...

There are plenty of excellent martial artists teaching out there with little or no connection to a larger organization.  And there are plenty of organizations out there that simply rubber stamp applications once the check clears.


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## sfs982000 (Oct 15, 2015)

Another thing with organizations is that if it's a larger one, like the ATA for example. Having your rank recognized through the organization normally means that if you'd ever have to move and transfer to a school within that organization that your rank would be recognized so you wouldn't have to start over (not that is necessarily a bad thing).


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 15, 2015)

Moira said:


> (1.) So basically this just means that I know that my training is certified and verifiable and standardized?
> 
> (2.) And, is desirable/preferable to train at a place where your rank is issued/recorded/certified by an org., versus just being trained without all of that, like my husband was?  Or does it really not matter either way?
> 
> Thanks for clearing this up for me!



The only real big advantage, as I see it, is portability. One can assume with reasonable surety that if you go to another school from the same org, the curriculum will be the same (or close) and your rank will probably carry over. 
Using our own school as an example, we offer certification through the MDK or the KKW. For students who are planning to go away (say, to college) we encourage them to consider the more expensive KKW Dan certification. Very few students choose that option other than those who expect to move away.

As Drop Bear mentioned, there may be insurance reasons as well. Now, I teach in a YMCA-based program, and as such we are covered by their policies. But others may well be getting insurance through a larger org to save money.


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## Moira (Oct 15, 2015)

jks9199 said:


> A black belt is, in a sense, kind of like a college diploma.  It really only means what the school or organization awarding it says and expects it to.  Various college accreditation programs exist, as well as professional organizations as wel, to maintain and establish standards.  In the same way, a martial arts organization sets and maintains standards within that organization.  Membership in the organization serves to maintain ties and standards so that those standards are maintained.



Oh, your analogy is spot-on.     Great!  Thank you!  Makes perfect sense to me now.

Well, in my case, it would be the United States Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan Federation.

I can't really say that I do envision training around the country, traveling to competitions, etc.  I'm really just wanting some MA training for personal safety as well as vigorous physical fitness.  The "official" side of things doesn't interest me at all.  But if these conveniently-nearby, inexpensive lessons with a really nice instructor come with this requirement...I don't mind much, especially now that I understand the rationale behind it; and also especially now that I realize it isn't unheard-of in the martial arts world.


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## Moira (Oct 15, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> The only real big advantage, as I see it, is portability. One can assume with reasonable surety that if you go to another school from the same org, the curriculum will be the same (or close) and your rank will probably carry over.



Thank you!  I do think, as I've read here and understood now, that that's the case with this school.  

I may not really mind, though, because the instructor is a good match for my learning style.  Learning a martial art is a very different kind of thing for me (not traditionally a sporty kind of person), so I wanted someone with a patient and gentle style, nothing that might feel intimidating.


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## Buka (Oct 15, 2015)

Wlcome to MT Moira.

Anywhere you go train - dem that runs the dojo makes da rules. (sounds better with a corny movie accent)


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## Moira (Oct 15, 2015)

Buka said:


> Wlcome to MT Moira.
> 
> Anywhere you go train - dem that runs the dojo makes da rules. (sounds better with a corny movie accent)




 Thanks for the welcome, and the humor.  You're quite right!!!  Quite true.


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## WaterGal (Oct 15, 2015)

Organizations can, sometimes, offer wider benefits than just having your rank be portable/accredited. For example, my fiance studies Kendo.  Kendo operates the same way - in order to test, you have to be a member of both the All-US Kendo Federation and a regional federation.  This costs him, I think, about $70/year in membership dues?  But the regional federation organizes promotions (which require a panel of judges) and tournaments around the region, puts on (free) refereeing seminars, special classes, etc.


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## Moira (Oct 15, 2015)

WaterGal said:


> Organizations can, sometimes, offer wider benefits than just having your rank be portable/accredited. For example...



Thank you, WaterGal!  That is just exactly the kind of thing I was wondering.  Since I am literally entirely new to not only this particular MA (Soo Bahk Do), but martial arts in general, I basically had no basis of comparison, no awareness at all of what was the "norm" to be expecting.

(And I think from what I've read and then what I was told by the instructor, that this art's federation membership functions similarly.)  Good to know!  I appreciate it.


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## dancingalone (Oct 16, 2015)

You are also supporting your instructor indirectly by joining the same federation his school is a member of.  Who teaches him?  Who promotes him when he is ready for the next level?  Likely someone more senior than him in the federation and it may even be the grandmaster himself depending on how senior your teacher is.  Your membership fees go to support that type of structure.

Without discussing further your own perceived value from joining the USSBDMDKF, I think your outlook about looking at the fees as just part of your own tuition to be a very mature way of viewing it.  Good luck with your studies.


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## Dinkydoo (Oct 16, 2015)

Organisational memberships are pretty common in the UK, in fact, I've only actually trained in one place that doesn't force you to become a member of some kind of association for continued training, gradings, access to (usually not free) seminars, competitions....etc. They sort of serve a purpose as being a governing type of body to regulate schools of that particular style/style off-shoot and the annual fees usually aren't that expensive (in the region of £10 - £20). Luckily I pay no additional memberships at the minute, but if I ever move or change clubs then it's something I'll likely run into again.

Welcome to MT


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## drop bear (Oct 16, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> The only real big advantage, as I see it, is portability. One can assume with reasonable surety that if you go to another school from the same org, the curriculum will be the same (or close) and your rank will probably carry over.
> Using our own school as an example, we offer certification through the MDK or the KKW. For students who are planning to go away (say, to college) we encourage them to consider the more expensive KKW Dan certification. Very few students choose that option other than those who expect to move away.
> 
> As Drop Bear mentioned, there may be insurance reasons as well. Now, I teach in a YMCA-based program, and as such we are covered by their policies. But others may well be getting insurance through a larger org to save money.



If you wanted to compete boxing here you also have to join whatever organisation runs it.


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## Tez3 (Oct 19, 2015)

Dinkydoo said:


> Organisational memberships are pretty common in the UK, in fact, I've only actually trained in one place that doesn't force you to become a member of some kind of association for continued training, gradings, access to (usually not free) seminars, competitions....etc. They sort of serve a purpose as being a governing type of body to regulate schools of that particular style/style off-shoot and the annual fees usually aren't that expensive (in the region of £10 - £20). Luckily I pay no additional memberships at the minute, but if I ever move or change clubs then it's something I'll likely run into again.
> 
> Welcome to MT



We use an organisation such as you describe for the most important reason...insurance. They provide insurance for students, which is why they pay a membership fee, insurance for instructors and public liability insurance. They will also provide legal help if you need it as well as recognised child protection advice and policies. It would be foolish quite honestly for any martial arts club/school not to join an organisation such as this. some are more expensive than others, you do have to take a good look at what they provide but to not have insurance ( which is expensive if you get from an insurance broker) is not something you want either as an instructor or student. a good organisation will  also keep you up to date and advise you on current legislation as pertains to the club/school.
In the UK if a place doesn't have a membership fee check they do have insurance, even if you have your own the place must have public liability cover.


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## Dinkydoo (Oct 19, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> In the UK if a place doesn't have a membership fee check they do have insurance, even if you have your own the place must have public liability cover.



I didn't think about it from an insurance perspective, I'll check it out. They produce pro Muay Thai and MMA fighters, so i'd imagine the gym has some sort of coverage.


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## Tez3 (Oct 19, 2015)

Dinkydoo said:


> I didn't think about it from an insurance perspective, I'll check it out. They produce pro Muay Thai and MMA fighters, so i'd imagine the gym has some sort of coverage.



Insurance and legal cover is the most usual; reason for using these organisations, many don't interfere with the style or what you are teaching. The gym should have insurance not just for the martial arts training but in case you hurt yourself due to their negligence in something like building maintenance, or employee's being negligent etc. it may sound excessive but most people can't afford to be off work for any length of time due to injuries either from training or accidents.
Which gym is it, if I can be nosy, I know most people in MMA in the UK


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## Dinkydoo (Oct 19, 2015)

I'll send you a PM Tez; just started training there recently and wouldn't want to start plastering the gym name about online.


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## lklawson (Oct 19, 2015)

Moira said:


> I am literally 100% new to all of this.


Then this might be helpful for you:

The Newbie Guide to Martial Arts Training v2.1 by Kirk Lawson


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## Tez3 (Oct 19, 2015)

Dinkydoo said:


> I'll send you a PM Tez; just started training there recently and wouldn't want to start plastering the gym name about online.




Cheers for that, now I know who they are, and you've chosen extremely well, I can say they won't honestly mind.


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## Tez3 (Oct 19, 2015)

Dinkydoo said:


> I'll send you a PM Tez; just started training there recently and wouldn't want to start plastering the gym name about online.



Cheers, having seen who you train with, an excellent choice btw, I can assure you they won't mind if you say who you are training with, they are actually very well known. They have fighters in the UFC. The fight team is fabulous though prone to having a 'quirky' sense of humour especially the lot from the 'east coast' side.


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## Dinkydoo (Oct 19, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Cheers, having seen who you train with, an excellent choice btw, I can assure you they won't mind if you say who you are training with, they are actually very well known. They have fighters in the UFC. The fight team is fabulous though prone to having a 'quirky' sense of humour especially the lot from the 'east coast' side.



Thanks, it means a lot that you hold the gym in such a high regard. I'm certainly very happy with the first few weeks I've spent there. I wanted to be careful about not sounding like I was boasting or bigging myself up about training there though - I'll only get out what I put in, at the end of the day.


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## Moira (Oct 19, 2015)

lklawson said:


> Then this might be helpful for you:
> 
> The Newbie Guide to Martial Arts Training v2.1 by Kirk Lawson



Yes, that is immensely helpful!  _Much _appreciated!


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## Tez3 (Oct 20, 2015)

Dinkydoo said:


> Thanks, it means a lot that you hold the gym in such a high regard. I'm certainly very happy with the first few weeks I've spent there. I wanted to be careful about not sounding like I was boasting or bigging myself up about training there though - I'll only get out what I put in, at the end of the day.




Did they give you your username?


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## Dinkydoo (Oct 20, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Did they give you your username?


It is very apt, isn't it! Alas no, it stemmed from a bit of slang my friends used to say to each other whilst growing up "Aw aye, dinky do" - which basically translates to, "Whatever, I think you're talking rubbish" because "dinkydo" is a made up word which featured on Chewin' The Fat years ago. 

Now that I think of it, it's quite appropriate that i've used it to post nonsense on message boards for years! I must be more witty than I think


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 20, 2015)

This reminds me of the time when we paid some random Karate Great to come to our school and do a seminar, which is just supposed a weekend and see ya later, but the guy got the bright idea to promote our teacher to his next belt level in his organization. What a disaster that was. LOL  You just can't do that. Nor can you run black belt testing out of your school for other peoples students. You would make the evening news. Ha Ha!


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