# Frank Trejo gets kicked.



## D_Brady (Feb 17, 2003)

I herd Mr Trejo recieved his 10th degree kick from Mr. Mike Pick.sr
at the big tourney this past weekend. Did anyone here go.

  any info would be cool for those of us stuck in the cold.


 Respectfully Dan Brady.


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## meni (Feb 17, 2003)

i heard that he recive his 10th  about a year ago but never wore it  as far as i know he recvid it from or with the wkka


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## True2Kenpo (Feb 17, 2003)

Fellow Kenpoists,

I would like to say a big congrats to Mr. Trejo!!  Anyone know how the tournament went?

Respectfully,
Joshua Ryer
UPK Pittsburgh


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## Kirk (Feb 17, 2003)

Congrats to Mr Trejo!!!  

Hopefully someone will post a pic of that kick!


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## Wes Idol (Feb 17, 2003)

Pick did not blast Trejo, the kick was very moderated.  Pick's presentation was one of respect and admiration.

Respectfully, 

WI, HI
UKS


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## Angus (Feb 17, 2003)

Who are all the Kenpo 10th dans, and how did they get them?

I know of Larry Tatum (who I thought was somewhere around 4th-7th when EP died), and I think Ron Chapél, and I had never previously heard of Pick. Were they all self promoted when they started their own Kenpo group/federation? 

Just purely out of curiousity, since I don't study Kenpo. Thanks! 

Congrats to Trejo.


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## Marcus Buonfiglio (Feb 17, 2003)

It was a great thing to witness. Mr. Trejo certainly deserved it. Jokingly Trejo covered his groin with his hands and smilled at the audience. Pick gave him a respectful tap. Shook his hand and gave him a hug.  Trejo was humble in his acceptance and credited his knowledge and rank to those who came before him. 
All in all, a good night.

Marcus Buonfiglio


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## Wes Idol (Feb 17, 2003)

He started under Parker as a 10 year old in 1957.  He remained a long time student and friend to Parker until Parker's death.  In 1994 Tom Garriga (sp?), Tino Tuiolosega (old time Parker training partner from Hawaii) and bunch of other students promoted Pick to 10th.  Parker refered to Mike Pick as his "Top student in knife fighting."

I believe Tatum promoted himself with the creation of his school and organization.  Tatum successfully ran West LA for many years and recieved a 7th from Parker in 1986. 

Chapel helped run the Internationals and help start the BKF.  I believe he was promoted to 9th by a non-Kenpo organization.  I saw a 10th he put on some years ago...it was adjusted to respect Parker's 10th....then he took it off and maybe he has put it on again.  Parker told many people in around 1990 that he never promoted Chapel, yet Chapel has a 7th cert.

Respectfully, 

WI, HI
UKS


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## Kirk (Feb 17, 2003)

Mr. Planas began his training in Kenpo in Fresno, Ca. in the late sixties under 
Steve Labounty and Tom Kelly. He moved to Texas to Help Tom Kelly open a school in 
El Paso in 1969 and then moved to Pasadena, California to go to work for Ed Parker 
as a Brown Belt. He received his Black Belt and all subsequent rank through Ed 
Parker up to Seventh Degree, the highest non-honorary, non-political rank given by 
Parker in 1985. He became the Manager of the Pasadena school for several years as 
well as the E.V.P. of the I.K.K.A. for the last ten years Parker lived. 

After Parkers passing other associations were formed, one of which Promoted Planas 
to Eighth degree in 1991 and in 1995 several associations joined together to 
promote him to 9th Black. 

I _*heard*_ that he was promoted to 10th black
at the birthday bash this past year.  He wasn't too happy about
it either (from what I hear).


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## jfarnsworth (Feb 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *I heard that he was promoted to 10th black
> at the birthday bash this past year.  He wasn't too happy about
> it either (from what I hear). *



I have no problems with Mr. Planas getting a tenth. He has a tremendous amount of knowledge.


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## Wes Idol (Feb 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *He received his Black Belt and all subsequent rank through Ed
> Parker up to Seventh Degree, the highest non-honorary, non-political rank given by
> Parker in 1985.
> ...



Kirk, 

I have read this before, and knowing that you are simply passing on someone else's statement, wouldn't that presume that Hebler's 7th was either honorary and/political?  Please know that I mean a constructive dialogue here...but also, how can any promotion above 3rd degree not be political when those ranks were only based on your contribution to the art, as opposed to knowing or performing material?

I've been around Planas and what he teaches, he knows very well.  He's been very generous to me and surely did a lot of work for Parker and the IKKA.  My question is only about this statement in your post.

Respectfully, 

WI, HI
UKS


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## Kirk (Feb 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Wes Idol _
> *Kirk,
> 
> I have read this before, and knowing that you are simply passing on someone else's statement, wouldn't that presume that Hebler's 7th was either honorary and/political?  Please know that I mean a constructive dialogue here...but also, how can any promotion above 3rd degree not be political when those ranks were only based on your contribution to the art, as opposed to knowing or performing material?*




This is a bit embarassing to say, but I just took that statement as
fact.  :iws:  Thanks for making me think.  

Along that same vein though, why 3rd?  Aren't there requirements
that require testing, up to 5th?  Or am I wrong here too?


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## Elfan (Feb 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Wes Idol _
> *but also, how can any promotion above 3rd degree not be political when those ranks were only based on your contribution to the art, as opposed to knowing or performing material? *



I thought 4th, not 3rd, had been the last material based rank.


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## Kirk (Feb 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Elfan _
> *I thought 4th, not 3rd, had been the last material based rank. *



Well going by the 3 posts, I'm gonna assume (until someone says
otherwise) that it's an organizational thing.  

I know Tatum's b.b.'s have been taught more techs than at my
school, so that would explain the difference.


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## ProfessorKenpo (Feb 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *Well going by the 3 posts, I'm gonna assume (until someone says
> otherwise) that it's an organizational thing.
> 
> ...



The LTKKA and IKKA (at least currently) run the 24 tech per belt system which is why the requirements end at 3rd Black for us.      If the requirements go all the way to 5th then there's no room for seasoning in the 4th up ranks because technically you're still just learning.    The idea of having the title of Professor rank at 5th is to allow that seasoning of time in system to engrain all the material and become proficient in the requirements to 3rd and to promulgate your art with that knowledge.   Just my thoughts.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## Kirk (Feb 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> *The LTKKA and IKKA (at least currently) run the 24 tech per belt system which is why the requirements end at 3rd Black for us.      If the requirements go all the way to 5th then there's no room for seasoning in the 4th up ranks because technically you're still just learning.    The idea of having the title of Professor rank at 5th is to allow that seasoning of time in system to engrain all the material and become proficient in the requirements to 3rd and to promulgate your art with that knowledge.   Just my thoughts.
> 
> Have a great Kenpo day
> ...



I can understand that.  And to be honest, I DO KNOW that there's
less techs than yours .. but I do NOT know, for a fact, that 5th has
tech requirements for it.  I can't remember where I heard it.
At my school the 155 techs, but the extensions for orange are
required for black.


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## Wes Idol (Feb 18, 2003)

In the UKS, we have adopted the 16 tech. set up.  There is written material up to 5th degree.

Respectfully, 

WI, HI
UKS


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## Doc (Feb 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Wes Idol _
> *
> Respectfully,
> 
> ...



Only a person of questionable motives or limited intelligence would make negative statements about a person in public without first hand knowledge of what they speak. The constant barrage of "I heard and he saids" with inuendos and sly underhanded comments are juvenile, especially while you sign "respectfuly."


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## D_Brady (Feb 18, 2003)

Next time I'll post in the TKD threads less mud slinging going on there. 

 Back to my original thread- Congrats to MR Trejo.


  To MR. PIck thank you, for recognizing Mr.Trejo for his dedication and not only love for the art but for his contributions to all of us.

  see you both in the TKD threads.


   Dan ( kenpo's bastard child ) Brady.


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## tarabos (Feb 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by D_Brady _
> *Next time I'll post in the TKD threads less mud slinging going on there.
> *



ZING! :rofl:


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## Michael Billings (Feb 18, 2003)

Kirk,

When Mr. Duffy, with Mr. Parker's blessing, designed the 16 thechnique format, it pushed the Blue and Green extensions up to 4th and 5th Black.  So any 24 Technique system has the black belt extensions going through 3rd.  

Oss,
-Michael


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## Kirk (Feb 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *Kirk,
> 
> When Mr. Duffy, with Mr. Parker's blessing, designed the 16 thechnique format, it pushed the Blue and Green extensions up to 4th and 5th Black.  So any 24 Technique system has the black belt extensions going through 3rd.
> ...



Interesting factoid, sir!  Thank you!  You comin' in for the seminar
this weekend?


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## ProfessorKenpo (Feb 18, 2003)

First-degree black belt.

A first-degree black belt (junior instructor) has achieved a certain level of physical expertise. Understanding the concepts and principles of motion, he has become a formidable fighter defensively and offensively. However, his skills outstrip his ability to communicate and teach, so teaching is essential to any further progress.

Second-degree black belt.

For the second-degree black belt (associate instructor), the ability to teach has begun to reinforce new-found skills. He has discovered that "to teach is to learn", and this is accompanied by a re-evaluation of past mistakes and bad habits. A new sense of responsibility appears, and he must begin to cultivate an image of authority within the school.

Third-degree black belt.

At third degree (senior instructor), the black belt finds that first- and second-degree black belts look to him for guidance and direction in the execution of techniques. He now has the authority within the school environment to organize a curriculum, express policy and set up tests.

Fourth-degree black belt

At fourth degree (head instructor), the black belt acquires the privilege of overriding others within the school after careful discussion, as well as a more mature ability to communicate that allows teaching first-, second- and third- degree black belts. Together with these responsibilities, the fourth-degree black belt assists the master instructor in seminars, demonstrations and other public functions at which the school and the art are represented. His physical expertise should be noticeably above that of more junior black belts, particularly in terms of speed, power and timing

Fifth-degree black belt

The fifth degree black belt (associate professor) has reached the level at which he begins to teach the art beyond the realm of the school. Although the school curriculum has been carefully spelled-out, he is no longer bound by it and has acquired the ability to tailor it to fit individual students. At fifth degree, in short, the black belt now moves on to a broader base of responsibility

Sixth-degree black belt

The sixth-degree black belt (professor) has now reached a level at which he can not only teach the art but begin to formulate its concepts and principles outside his school. As a result, caution becomes imperative. He has advanced to a critical point in his art, and it is at this point that his accumulation of time in grade becomes his defense against teaching what he cannot later retract

Seventh-degree black belt

At seventh degree (senior professor), a noticeable change takes place in the black belt's understanding of his art. He becomes capable of ascertaining the problems that lie within the teaching of the curriculum. Working from a broader base and beginning to teach locally, nationally and internationally what was once taught mainly at home, he now recognizes that his former ways may not work abroad and must be tailored to particular minds, cultures and agendas. He has realized that while the language of the art remains the same, the varied applications of that language must be fitted to the environment. In brief, a seventh degree who goes out to teach in the world must have learned to tailor his teachings to the place and the people.

Eighth-degree black belt

At eighth degree (associate master), the black belt's concerns shift to exploring areas of physical mastership that were not visible to him in the past. His art eventually begins to expand physically and mentally, so much so that a definite physical change becomes evident, expressing the fact that he has begun to settle into a physical mastery. Thus, movements are less contrived because they are in the process of embodied within him.

Ninth-degree black belt

At ninth degree (master of arts), the black belt has reached a level where, at any given moment, he can choreograph a technique by reaching a "superconscious" level. No longer separate from the art he has internalized, he has at last embodied it and become an element of it. What he teaches and what he physically embodies are indivisible. His contributions to the martial arts inside and outside the community are many, and his rank is backed by at least 25 years of sacrifice and service

Tenth-degree black belt


Tenth degree represents a lifelong endeavor to help all humankind. The rank is so respected by peers and students that the person's word affects the course of the art.

(The titles for the 10 ranks of black belt and the basic ideas of the differences between them came from Ed Parker. I have added a few needed definitions and explanations and provided interpretations.)- Larry G. Tatum


Just some interesting thoughts on ranks of Black and why we use the 24 system thruout obtained at    www.archive.org

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## howardr (Feb 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Wes Idol _
> *Chapel helped run the Internationals and help start the BKF.  I believe he was promoted to 9th by a non-Kenpo organization.  I saw a 10th he put on some years ago...it was adjusted to respect Parker's 10th....then he took it off and maybe he has put it on again.  Parker told many people in around 1990 that he never promoted Chapel, yet Chapel has a 7th cert.
> 
> Respectfully,
> ...



I've noticed this pattern in your posts for quite a while now. Just doing this once would be bad enough, but you routinely post these unsubstantiated second-hand rumors as if they were established fact. That strikes me as smacking of prevarication.

Do you have ANY first-hand information for any of the above allegations, or are these more unsubstantiated second-hand (or worse) reports from others that you are once again repeating?

Your "evidence" consists of the repeated stories from, at best, questionable others. On the other hand, hmmm...let's see there is Ed Parker's own book that he wrote, in which he included a family tree, which if I'm not mistaken lists Dr. Chapel as a first-generation student. Your "evidence" is innuendo. On the other hand, there is the fact that Dr. Chapel is acknowledged in several of Mr. Parker's books, is photographed in those same books demonstrating Kenpo techniques, wearing a blackbelt, there are the "official" American Kenpo videos that Dr. Chapel assisted Mr. Parker in, there is the fact that Dr. Chapel helped run the Internationals, oh and there is a certificate signed by Ed Parker acknowledging Dr. Chapel's promotion. So, on the one hand we have a bunch of real, independently verifiable physical evidence that Dr. Chapel is the real deal, and on the other some slanderous second-hand rumors from questionable quarters.

Again, I ask, what basis, what actual specific evidence, do you have that what you are alleging is true? How do you know the individuals who told you these stories do not themselves have their own motivations or agendas to slant the truth or lie? Just because you trust these individuals because they have helped you out, have been good to you, or are skilled in Kenpo does not mean that they are entirely trustworthy about such matters, especially as they involve political issues. Perhaps, they have motives that you are unaware of for wanting to slander Dr. Chapel because he knows certain things about them that they don't want substantiated.

Frankly, I'm pretty shocked that I would need to layout this basic logical principle that stories repeated from others are not evidence as such for the truth and veracity of a claim. In court it's called hearsay. Even leaving aside possible insidious motivations on the part of those spreading these rumors, have you ever heard of the telephone game? Most children realize that when one child tells another a story (even a relatively simple one), and that child tells another child the story, it is not long before the original story is completely different in fundamentals from the original. I think you might heed the moral of that story.

Howard
howardr20022002@yahoo.com


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## Sigung86 (Feb 19, 2003)

Thank you Mr. Brady, and Howard.  I have, in the past, endeavoured to try to stop this line of posting, but after a while, it simply becomes tiresome.

This type of inuendo, mud-slinging and damning by faint praise, "What he knows, he teaches well".  Really has no place on a forum of this caliber ... But some people never seem to learn.

Wes, maybe it is time that you, once again, go back to the Kenponet where they let you post your childish material, or perhaps the Mud Hut, and leave the grown ups alone?  I honestly believe that you should be tired of posting the same tripe where people laugh at you to your face, as well as behind your back.

My respects and Thanks to you both again, Mr. Brady and HowardR.

Dan Farmer


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## Wes Idol (Feb 19, 2003)

Albert Cornejo, Mike Pick, Frank Trejo, Steve Labounty, Bryan Hawkins and the writers of The Journey....

All will back my claims.  I invite you all to start talking to people outside of Chapel and start getting a another picture on his history in AK.  

Respectfully, 

WI, HI
UKS


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## Sigung86 (Feb 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Wes Idol _
> *Albert Cornejo, Mike Pick, Frank Trejo, Steve Labounty, Bryan Hawkins and the writers of The Journey....
> 
> All will back my claims.  I invite you all to start talking to people outside of Chapel and start getting a another picture on his history in AK.
> ...



Wasn't going to even dignify this post with a response, but I will try one more, and final time, and simply repeat what I have said before Wes ... No one outside of you seems to care much... There are so many alleged skeletons in so many Kenpo closets, that even if Doc were to have an alleged one in his, it would pretty much simply put him on a par with so many of the other seniors.

You are, simply, too obsessive over this one insignificant facet of the history of American Kenpo.  It would seem that, in keeping with many of your other posts, that you might be better off adopting a peaceful co-existence attitude.  You don't seem to realize that all your ranting and raving about Doc really does nothing other than make you appear to be an obsessive goofball to many folks who frequent this forum, and others.  

I'm not an American Kenpo person, have never ranked in it, and study as and how I please, but as much as you try to beat on Doc, even if I did not like him, I would be curious as Hell as to what all the ranting and raving is about, and would look him up.

Mayhap, if all these seniors have legitimate beefs with Doc, they ought to take it up with him on their own.  I haven't seen a lot of them out here baying at the Doc Chapél Moon.  Only you Wes.  

Mayhap you need to rethink where you are coming from and what you are doing to yourself.  And while you're at it, perhaps find a new windmill to tilt with.  An obsession can be a very unhealthy personal thing in the greater scheme of illusions and paradigms.

Respectfully,

Dan Farmer


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## Nightingale (Feb 20, 2003)

you are a first degree black belt if you studied under SGM Parker after receiving your black in EPAK.  It doesn't matter who you got it from, according to the family tree.  There are many people listed as 1st generation on the tree that were second generation and were moved to first generation because of subsequent study with Mr. Parker.  In that case, someone could be a 1st generation black belt and have never actually been promoted by Mr. Parker.


DISCLAIMER:
This was a general comment about how someone could be a 1st generation without actually getting promoted by Mr. Parker.  Not saying this is the case with Doc, and not saying it isn't.  Not making any comment about Doc whatsoever, other than in this disclaimer, because otherwise people will read into what I'm saying.  I wasn't there, and I haven't spoken to people who were there about it, so I don't know.


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## Doc (Feb 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> *you are a first degree black belt if you studied under SGM Parker after receiving your black in EPAK.  It doesn't matter who you got it from, according to the family tree.  There are many people listed as 1st generation on the tree that were second generation and were moved to first generation because of subsequent study with Mr. Parker.  In that case, someone could be a 1st generation black belt and have never actually been promoted by Mr. Parker.
> 
> 
> ...



That's an astute observation and I was there when the tree was created so I have some insight about that. 

You are indeed correct, but that usually occured at the 1st black level with subsequent promotions after that. So technically you are correct, however that never happened to my knowledge. Once "transferred" a person was promoted further by Parker and never stayed in that "transfered to 1st generation but didn't promote further twilight zone."

Also (as you stated), Mr. Parker covered "transfers" with most by cross referencing the individuals with their original Kenpo Instructor. So when you examine the tree, you'll see prominent people in more than one place. 

As an example, Richard Planas is listed as 1st generation, but is also listed under Sibok Tom Kelly, who is listed as 1st generation but also listed under Sigung Steve LaBounty. If you check now Grandmaster, Larry Tatum you'll see that a great many of the prominent contemporary "1st generation" black belts were originally promoted by him out of the Santa Monica and West Los Angeles School and they transferred themselves, and fail to mention Larry Tatum.

Later on, when Ed Parker was alive, all his black promotions were co-promotions unless you were directly under him, even though he wasn't necessarily teaching. Parker signed diplomas on the left, your instructor on the right. Therefore now everyone can and does claim Parker as their "only" teacher. Look for the diplomas that have his signature on both sides of the diploma. All of them are instructors. Most came to Parker as black belts from Kenpo or other styles.

You'll also notice that the majority of the black belts did not make their 1st black directly under Parker because he stopped teaching in the schools regularly in the sixties. So most of those that did, began training in the nineteen-fifties, like now Gransmaster, Chuck Sullivan who is one of the exceptions. So you need to look for two things; are they listed as 1st generation, and are the diplomas signed by Parker on both sides. Many have one but not the other although honestly, I don't think this "lineage" thing has as much validity as it might suggest in the American culture.

As for your disclaimer, I'm sorry that you have to supply one. Personally I always take everyone at face value unless given a reason to do otherwise, therefore I don't personally need disclaimers. I've often said we sometimes spend so much time apologizing in advance for things we haven't said, we don't get around to fully exploring the topic.

As for me I am fairly straight forward and say what I mean and mean what I say. No one has to "read between the lines" but I'm sure some will anyway. (Especially when I'm sleepy like now)

Now I have to apologize to you that an atmosphere exists that causes you to feel you need to have a disclaimer. I wish it didn't exist.


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## Kirk (Feb 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *Now I have to apologize to you that an atmosphere exists that causes you to feel you need to have a disclaimer. *



Why?  You didn't create it, so it's not your fault.


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## bahenlaura (Feb 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *Congrats to Mr Trejo!!!
> 
> Hopefully someone will post a pic of that kick! *



 
My Kenpo Brothers,

The tourny was great. Lots of competition. 3 days of fun and brother hood. and yes since you asked; here it is what you all been waiting for, fresh out of my Cam.
enjoy.
Burt E.


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## baronv (Feb 21, 2003)

Well I was at the Sat. tournament in Long Beach. While the event was entertaining, it seemed very unorganized, throughout the day the announcer kept asking for judges and even admonishing them over the speaker that they'd be booted and have to pay admission to the event if they didn't show up at the staging areas or ringside. I wish they at least had a timetable for when the different events were going to go on, since i missed the self defense & some of the grappling that I came to see. The WKO sparring was good, it at least let the fighters do throws and take downs, Still the point sparring was ok, I don't really like it that much sicne those rules just end up makig the fighters play tag with each other.

I had a friend who went to the Pomona tournament the same day and after watching their video of the evnt, I'd have to say it was way better organized and presented. Ed Parker Jr. was there on stage and speaking of the IKKA returning. I hear he's boycotting Trejo's event. Some martial arts celebs were there presenting trophys too, among them were Bob Wall (Bruce Lee's film enemy & publisher), and Chris Cassamassa of Olymic TKD fame.  The competitors at the Pomona were so much better than the one's in the Long Beach tournament, I guess since the LB was mainly Kenpo and a few other martial arts, the Pomona had many Japanese styles, TKD, and Wushu and the people there competing were flying, spinning, jumping. I'd go to that one next year.

Overall, I'd rate the Long Beach tournament a 5/10 stars and the Pomona a 8/10.


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## Kirk (Feb 21, 2003)

Thanks for sharing Burt!!! 

Just my opinion, but a competition can't exist without judges.  If
someone makes a committment to BE a judge, and gets in free,
then he should be where he needs to be, ON TIME.  I have no
problem with the public outcry at the judges.


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## Sigung86 (Feb 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by bahenlaura _
> *
> My Kenpo Brothers,
> 
> ...



Who's all them Ol' Geezers???  :lol: :lol: :lol:

Dan "I don't dye my hair!  It's naturally gray!" Farmer


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## jeffkyle (Feb 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _
> *Who's all them Ol' Geezers???  :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> Dan "I don't dye my hair!  It's naturally gray!" Farmer *



Were YOU in that pic?


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## Nightingale (Feb 21, 2003)

I say charge judges to get in, then give them a card that the coordinator stamps when he brings a division to the ring.  If the judge has at least three stamps, he's judged at least three divisions, and can turn in the card in exchange for his money back.


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## ProfessorKenpo (Feb 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> *I say charge judges to get in, then give them a card that the coordinator stamps when he brings a division to the ring.  If the judge has at least three stamps, he's judged at least three divisions, and can turn in the card in exchange for his money back. *



Kris, I don't know where your thoughts are but if you charge the BB's that are judging to get in  you wouldn't have any judges, no judges, no competition.     I'm not going to pay to get into a tournament unless I'm competing.    I've always officiated at tournaments, and most of the BB's there do as well, maybe some more than others but we have students there we want to watch compete and usually it's right in the middle of a division we're judging and that's a real PITA.      Most promoters provide T-shirts for the officials as an incentive to officiate at the tournaments.     They either want to see you in the ring or give you a slip after each division to turn in for your shirt, no slips, no shirt.     Another suggestion would be to stamp those tickets when you got your shirt and use them as a pass the next day if it's more than one.    This way if you didn't officiate the first day and you have a band on your wrist, you'd have to pay to get in the second.     That would stop alot of it.      I would suggest you  get some time in the ring as an official before you pass your statements on.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## Sigung86 (Feb 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _
> *Who's all them Ol' Geezers???  :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> Dan "I don't dye my hair!  It's naturally gray!" Farmer *



   

Why would I be seen hanging with a bunch of old geezers????

Had I been there, I would have been in the company of the youngsters! :rofl: 

Dan


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## Kirk (Feb 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> *Kris, I don't know where your thoughts are but if you charge the BB's that are judging to get in  you wouldn't have any judges, no judges, no competition.     I'm not going to pay to get into a tournament unless I'm competing.    I've always officiated at tournaments, and most of the BB's there do as well, maybe some more than others but we have students there we want to watch compete and usually it's right in the middle of a division we're judging and that's a real PITA.      Most promoters provide T-shirts for the officials as an incentive to officiate at the tournaments.     They either want to see you in the ring or give you a slip after each division to turn in for your shirt, no slips, no shirt.     Another suggestion would be to stamp those tickets when you got your shirt and use them as a pass the next day if it's more than one.    This way if you didn't officiate the first day and you have a band on your wrist, you'd have to pay to get in the second.     That would stop alot of it.      I would suggest you  get some time in the ring as an official before you pass your statements on.
> 
> Have a great Kenpo day
> ...



If it's a common problem, _something_ should be done, 
don'tcha think?


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## Doc (Feb 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> *I say charge judges to get in, then give them a card that the coordinator stamps when he brings a division to the ring.  If the judge has at least three stamps, he's judged at least three divisions, and can turn in the card in exchange for his money back. *



Great idea.  When I ran the IKC we did just as you said. You had to judge three divisions to get into the finals free.


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## Seig (Feb 21, 2003)

I have done the tournament thing all over the east coast as a competitor and judge.  I have seen extremely well run tournys and very poorly run ones.  Enough judges or judges getting to their rings always seems to be an issue.  I have been given shirts and I have been given free admission.  One idea, that seems to have worked extremely well was for a Black Belt to have to sign in on a seperate sheet as judges.  They were then given free admission/shirt (if they were giving out shirts).  30 minutes before the event began was the cutoff, the promoter then collected the sheet and held the judges meeting.  At that time each ring was assigned 2 BBs 3rd degree or higher and as many lower ranking BBs as were available so that each ring had a fairly equal amount.  The reason two higher BBs were assigned was in case one of them had to compete or had a student competing.  We were then instructed that if both of the Senior BBs had to leave the ring to find at least one who was available to fill in until we could get back.  This system worked very well.  I was recently at a tpurnament where I came merely to spectate to see how the organization was running it.  I paid my admission fee and 5 minutes later was recognized by several of the senior BBs and was asked to be a referee.  I was not refunded my money and was very disappointed at the caliber of the rest of the judges.  Needless to say, I have not been back to any of those events.


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## rmcrobertson (Feb 21, 2003)

Hm. "I'd have to rate...," eh?


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## baronv (Feb 24, 2003)

Has anyone attended the San Diego Nationals? It's happening agai in April and I'm thinking of attending, but sine it's far (I'm in L.A.) I'm hoping that it's good enough for me to drive all the way to attend. Any reviews of previous attendance would be helpful.


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## Nightingale (Feb 24, 2003)

I went in 2000.  It's a good, well established tournament, and from what I've seen, well run.


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