# Wing Chun Kicking : No chambering required.



## mook jong man (Nov 24, 2011)

When teaching people in the past who have come from other martial arts I have had a very hard time in trying to eliminate the habit of them chambering their leg before they kick.

One guy I've been teaching for about two years previously did TKD for quite a long time and he still does a noticeable chamber with some of his kicks , it is getting better but it is still there.

One misconception that people have is because you can kick high , you can kick low this maybe the case for a practitioner staying within their own style , but it is not the case for Wing Chun .
Low kicking using  the Wing Chun method is a totally different beast , and as with my student  previous habits have to be erased.

In Wing Chun kicking , the foot must travel in a straight line from the ground to the target.
This is so the kick can reach maximum velocity , chambering the kick is like trying to accelerate in a racing car then having to slow down for a corner and then trying to accelerate again.

Chambering the kick requires two actions raising the knee , and then thrusting the leg out , in Wing Chun the kick travels directly to the target and is executed in one motion.
This type of kicking is less likely to be detected and countered , in short it is less telegraphic.

In Wing Chun defence and attack are inseparable , using a straight line as the trajectory for my kick means that my leg will still roughly be in the optimum angle for jamming any incoming kicks or alternatively using my shin to hook and deflect them off  my centreline.

Some would argue that chambering the leg will generate a more powerful kick , and with a novice Wing Chun student this will certainly be the case , same as if they drew their arm back to strike. 
That is because at their stage they are still using a lot of muscular force to generate power , but Wing Chun striking and kicking does not rely on muscular force to generate power , so drawing back the arm to strike or chambering the leg is not necessary.

In  Wing Chun the kicking  as with the hand striking , is done in a very relaxed fashion , no great muscular effort is required because the body mass is automatically transfered from the correct Wing Chun stance into the striking limb , as long as it is relaxed.

With every rule there are exceptions , in the case of a close range thrust kick to the solar plexus where I have control of both my opponents arms , due to the very close range I will bring my knee up high and into my own chest and then slam it back out again this is so my leg will clear the opponents body on the way up.

Also with a stamp kick to the back of the leg , again due to the proximity of the opponent and the fact I might be striking with my hand at the same time , the knee is brought up in a vertical line and then slammed down again.

Apart from these , all kicks should travel in a straight line from the ground to the target in accordance with the principal of directness

The best way to teach this to beginners is to make them maintain the same angle in their leg from their stance until their heel impacts with the target , this is a learning stage and as they gradually  become more skilled and faster their leg will naturally take a more direct route to the target.


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 25, 2011)

That's very interesting.  I'd love to see a demonstration of the kicks you describe, particularly a low kick.  As an Isshin-Ryu student, of course I do practice a chambered kick, and yes, we do it (we are told) to generate power.  And you attracted my attention when you compared it to the punch; we do NOT draw back our arms to punch but instead generate power primarily from the hips, so the arms do not 'chamber' in that sense.

If you could illustrate what you mean, I'd be most appreciative.  Thanks for the info!


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## yak sao (Nov 25, 2011)

I think kicking from the floor is stronger than a chambered kick. There is more room to accelerate the leg.
Also, by chambering the leg, your force is parallel to the floor and perpendicular to your body, so someone coming in to jam your kick can push you back off balance.
By kicking straight up from the floor, your force is wedging upward. Now if someone tries to jam your kick, he is forcing your base leg  to the floor. Think of a long board being placed at an angle where the wall and floor meet and push that board for all it's worth from the other end. It's not going anywhere.


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 25, 2011)

yak sao said:


> I think kicking from the floor is stronger than a chambered kick. There is more room to accelerate the leg.
> Also, by chambering the leg, your force is parallel to the floor and perpendicular to your body, so someone coming in to jam your kick can push you back off balance.
> By kicking straight up from the floor, your force is wedging upward. Now if someone tries to jam your kick, he is forcing your base leg  to the floor. Think of a long board being placed at an angle where the wall and floor meet and push that board for all it's worth from the other end. It's not going anywhere.



I am having trouble visualizing your kick.  Do you have any video clip that shows this type of kick?  I'm mentally picturing a straight kick with an unbended knee, and I have to think that's not what you mean?  I mean, I'm picturing something like a Rockette's kick in a chorus line; that can't be what you mean?


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## Cyriacus (Nov 25, 2011)

I think both ways have benefits and flaws. Both work - I personally like to move the Kick Straight in if Im aiming for the Ankle or Shin, possibly the Knee as well. I chamber if I want to hit the Knee or Thigh. And so forth.


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 25, 2011)

Is this a WC 'no chamber' kick?  If so, I think it is a chambered kick; it's just a shallow chamber.  However, please correct me if I'm wrong.

[video=youtube_share;uUCih9zaqw8]http://youtu.be/uUCih9zaqw8[/video]


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## mook jong man (Nov 25, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Is this a WC 'no chamber' kick?  If so, I think it is a chambered kick; it's just a shallow chamber.  However, please correct me if I'm wrong.
> 
> [video=youtube_share;uUCih9zaqw8]http://youtu.be/uUCih9zaqw8[/video]



No Bill that is not correct Wing Chun kicking , the execution is wrong on quite a few levels in fact it took me a minute to work out if the guy was supposed to be doing Wing Chun .
Whats with the indian music and the high kicks to the head , bloke must like getting his nut sack kicked in.

If the person is in their Wing Chun stance the centre of gravity is lowered and the legs are already bent , so in effect the legs are already pre chambered and ready for action.
Heres a clip here with a pretty good example , unfortunately it's part of a demo and doesn't start till around the 4:47 mark.

[video=youtube_share;764TpIUAZnw]http://youtu.be/764TpIUAZnw[/video]


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## mook jong man (Nov 25, 2011)

yak sao said:


> I think kicking from the floor is stronger than a chambered kick. There is more room to accelerate the leg.
> Also, by chambering the leg, your force is parallel to the floor and perpendicular to your body, so someone coming in to jam your kick can push you back off balance.
> By kicking straight up from the floor, your force is wedging upward. Now if someone tries to jam your kick, he is forcing your base leg  to the floor. Think of a long board being placed at an angle where the wall and floor meet and push that board for all it's worth from the other end. It's not going anywhere.



Interesting you mention that , because I've got an old videotape lying around here somewhere of a seminar that the late great Wong Shun Leung gave at our Adelaide school many years ago.

He draws a diagram on a blackboard explaining why you should kick in one motion directly to the target , according to him doing it in a one-two motion with a chamber causes the force to come back into you and destabilises your stance.


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## Eric_H (Nov 25, 2011)

I find that the non chambered kicks work best against the shins and ankles, however in Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun when we do our Buhn Yuet Ma footwork the knee raises to hip height on the centerline - similar to a chambered position - and it is possible that kicks can be launched from there as well. 

So I guess the answer is, I do both  It's all situation dependent anyways.


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## Touch Of Death (Nov 25, 2011)

Good thread.


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 25, 2011)

mook jong man said:


> If the person is in their Wing Chun stance the centre of gravity is lowered and the legs are already bent , so in effect the legs are already pre chambered and ready for action.
> Heres a clip here with a pretty good example , unfortunately it's part of a demo and doesn't start till around the 4:47 mark.



Thank you for that video.  He's fast, it was hard for me to see what he was doing with his legs.  Still looks like a "kind of' chamber to me; it just looks like what we would call a 'late chamber' or 'lazy chamber' (no disrespect intended).  His legs are already bent as you said (by the way, we keep our legs bent too) and the main difference that I saw was that his knee came up without chambering first, but as the knee reached 90 degrees, the shin was pointing straight down; when he kicks, he's pivoting from there.  His shin is essentially at a 45 degree angle to his thigh; if this is what you mean when you say 'pre-chambered' then I would agree.  About all I can see that we would do differently is we chamber the kick a bit more tightly and a bit sooner.  While some in my style advocate trying to hit yourself in the butt with the heel of your foot as a tight chamber, my body dimensions don't permit that; it's not physically possible for me.  So my 'chamber' is about half-way between a 'full' chamber and yours.  I would say I chamber about 2 to 3 inches more than the fellow in this video, and a bit sooner.  I'm not sure what different it makes in the execution of the kick.

Thanks for posting the video!


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## mook jong man (Nov 25, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Thank you for that video.  He's fast, it was hard for me to see what he was doing with his legs.  Still looks like a "kind of' chamber to me; it just looks like what we would call a 'late chamber' or 'lazy chamber' (no disrespect intended).  His legs are already bent as you said (by the way, we keep our legs bent too) and the main difference that I saw was that his knee came up without chambering first, but as the knee reached 90 degrees, the shin was pointing straight down; when he kicks, he's pivoting from there.  His shin is essentially at a 45 degree angle to his thigh; if this is what you mean when you say 'pre-chambered' then I would agree.  About all I can see that we would do differently is we chamber the kick a bit more tightly and a bit sooner.  While some in my style advocate trying to hit yourself in the butt with the heel of your foot as a tight chamber, my body dimensions don't permit that; it's not physically possible for me.  So my 'chamber' is about half-way between a 'full' chamber and yours.  I would say I chamber about 2 to 3 inches more than the fellow in this video, and a bit sooner.  I'm not sure what different it makes in the execution of the kick.
> 
> Thanks for posting the video!



When I say pre chambered I mean when in the stance the leg is already in the optimum angle for kicking, all that has to be done is the foot delivered to the target along the most direct path , and the heel thrust from the knee joint upon reaching the target.

This is an analog to the hands  when held in the Wing Chun guard position , the front hand is already in a position to generate power and can be launched from that position without any pre movement.

I think what you might be seeing as a lazy chamber could be just the relaxation of the leg , in Wing Chun all striking is relaxed so as to get maximum speed and power without telegraphic movement.

It's a dead weight kind of feeling that we are trying to achieve , so naturally with the leg being relaxed there will be some automatic contraction in the angle of the leg as it is raised , a bit like the shock wave that rolls along a whip before it strikes.
But this is not the same as deliberately raising the knee first and then kicking , it is just a consequence of being relaxed as the hip flexor activates and starts to raise the leg.

But if the person is standing in front of you doing the kick , to all intents and purposes it will appear as if the kick has been done in one motion , straight from floor to target in one movement.

You must understand that our kicks are used as a defence against other styles kicks and punches , so exactly as with the hands , even if the other person initiates the attack and launches a kick , our kick will still get there first as long as we use the most direct path through the centreline and from the ground straight to the target.

Any extraneous movement like raising the knee and chambering will waste time and result in the attackers kick or punch reaching you first whilst your kick is still in mid phase.

It's a bit like the old westerns with the two gun fighters , one initiates the attack and draws his gun from the holster first .
But the other gun fighter has a faster and more economical action and still manages to shoot the other guy even though the other gun fighter started his attack first.

I am not telling people from other styles the way they should kick , what I am saying is this method works in the context of Wing Chun because it is integrated into the Wing Chun stance and it is the correct Wing Chun stance that provides the proper platform in generating speed and power in the kicks without a lot of muscular effort expended on behalf of the practitioner.


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 25, 2011)

Thanks, that's really fascinating!  I'd like to work out with you sometime or with someone who has this skill and can show it to me.  If there is something I can take from your art and add to my own, I'm happy to do so.  Really appreciate the info!


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## mook jong man (Nov 25, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Thanks, that's really fascinating!  I'd like to work out with you sometime or with someone who has this skill and can show it to me.  If there is something I can take from your art and add to my own, I'm happy to do so.  Really appreciate the info!



Any time Bill , bit hard to train with me though I'm in Australia lol. You might be able to use some concepts from Wing Chun Bill , but to be honest these concepts work because of the Wing Chun stance , for you to make them work optimally you would have to adopt the Wing Chun stance , it's a bit like trying to run an operating system on a computer that is not compatible.


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 25, 2011)

mook jong man said:


> Any time Bill , bit hard to train with me though I'm in Australia lol. You might be able to use some concepts from Wing Chun Bill , but to be honest these concepts work because of the Wing Chun stance , for you to make them work optimally you would have to adopt the Wing Chun stance , it's a bit like trying to run an operating system on a computer that is not compatible.



That's why I'll have to train with someone who works in your art, I guess.  Hey, we take from everywhere; whatever works, works.  And I'd love to go back to Australia.  I was in Perth in '82.  Great place, wonderful people.


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## geezer (Nov 25, 2011)

Mook--this is a great topic. The degree to which you chamber your kick seems to depend a lot on which branch of Wing Chun you practice, even within the groups coming down from Grandmaster Yip Man. My old sifu, Leung Ting, insisted that we _lift_ the kick upwards and then thrust forward "as though kicking over a low box". Then the kick would drop straight downward to the ground with no return to chamber as with the motto "every kick a step..." You can see this chambering in the following clip of the Chum Kiu form as taught by Leung Ting in the early 1980s (there have been some minor changes his version of the form since then). Notice the way the front-thrust kick is performed in the third section at around 1:20 and again around 1:30.






I have also seen a video of Wong Shun Leung describing his direct floor-to-target method of kicking, and I can see the logic and efficiency of that method in certain circumstances. I don't, however, agree that just because you lift the kick first and then thrust it horizontally forward that you will de-stabilize your stance. That really depends on the angle at which you release your energy on impact. Done properly, you will direct the rebounding force _downward_ through your stance rather than horizontally out through your butt! And this can be done with either kind of delivery. Sifu Leung demonstrated this often with very powerful kicks.

Finally, although I learned the "lift then thrust" method, I can see benefits to both approaches depending on the target and context. And, I'm coming to view the two approaches as _both a part of WC_, just as the different ways in which the front punch is chambered in Siu Nim Tau and Biu Tze are both inherent to WC/VT/WT. In SNT the punch is first brought to center, then thrust straight out along the centerline. In Biu Tze it travels in a straight line from it's chamber alongside the body directly to it's target-point on centerline. Each punching method  is useful, but we begin training with the slower, chambered-then-thrust-forward method of SNT. Later we expand to the direct, point A to B method of Biu Tze. The same logic is applied to teaching kicks in the "WT" branches of art... including the NVTO group I'm currently associated with.


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## mook jong man (Nov 26, 2011)

geezer said:


> Mook--this is a great topic. The degree to which you chamber your kick seems to depend a lot on which branch of Wing Chun you practice, even within the groups coming down from Grandmaster Yip Man. My old sifu, Leung Ting, insisted that we _lift_ the kick upwards and then thrust forward "as though kicking over a low box". Then the kick would drop straight downward to the ground with no return to chamber as with the motto "every kick a step..." You can see this chambering in the following clip of the Chum Kiu form as taught by Leung Ting in the early 1980s (there have been some minor changes his version of the form since then). Notice the way the front-thrust kick is performed in the third section at around 1:20 and again around 1:30.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It does depend on the lineage but I think the overall governing factor in Wing Chun kicking is the proximity of the opponent and the target you are going for.

The angle that your leg is going to be in as you execute the kick is largely going to be dictated by how close or far away the opponent is at the time.

With the WSL thing I'm talking about I don't exactly know what he was going on about either , it could have even been a mistranslation about the force coming back into the body.
Because he didn't speak any English and my master was doing the translating , and he wasn't the best translator lol , about ten minutes of Cantonese would get condensed down into he said "Make sure you really relax!" lol.

Anyways in our lineage we have a very close range thrust kick into the solar plexus that is done from chi sau, you probably have the same thing in yours , I remember my seniors had no trouble in generating power from this range and their stance was solid , one second you would be doing chi sau and the next second you would have a heel thumping into your chest.
Due to the close range in chi sau you are forced to raise your knee up high in order to have the space to perform the kick , it maybe possible that in the WSL system they don't do that kick , I don't know.


So I think maybe as long as you are sufficiently relaxed when kicking and you have a decent foundation ie a good stance, then you should be able to use either method and not get rocked out of your stance by it , because you may have to use either type depending on the range and the target.


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## Vajramusti (Nov 26, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Is this a WC 'no chamber' kick?  If so, I think it is a chambered kick; it's just a shallow chamber.  However, please correct me if I'm wrong.
> 
> [video=youtube_share;uUCih9zaqw8]http://youtu.be/uUCih9zaqw8[/video]


--------------------------------------------------------

I would not call that a wing chun kick.


joy chaudhuri


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## Danny T (Nov 26, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Is this a WC 'no chamber' kick?  If so, I think it is a chambered kick; it's just a shallow chamber.  However, please correct me if I'm wrong.
> 
> [video=youtube_share;uUCih9zaqw8]http://youtu.be/uUCih9zaqw8[/video]



Interesting!?

As to lifting the knee, Range and target dependent. In my training the kicks in Chum Kiu and Bil Jee are different kicks due to different situations.


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## zepedawingchun (Nov 26, 2011)

mook jong man said:


> When I say pre chambered I mean when in the stance the leg is already in the optimum angle for kicking, all that has to be done is the foot delivered to the target along the most direct path , and the heel thrust from the knee joint upon reaching the target.
> 
> This is an analog to the hands  when held in the Wing Chun guard position , the front hand is already in a position to generate power and can be launched from that position without any pre movement.
> 
> ...



Just like the Wing Chun punch being driven by the elbow and shoulder, the kick is driven by the knee and hip.  People mistake the movement of the knee as chambered when in fact the kick is lifted by the motion of the knee (slightly bent but relaxed) to drive the kicking foot forward.  Just like the punch, you don't use the hand but the speed and movement of the elbow (the hand is attached so you focus on the elbow, the hand will go forward since the elbow is behind it). Same idea with a Wing Chun kick, the foot goes forward because the knee is behind it, with the force driving it.


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## geezer (Nov 26, 2011)

The biggest problem for WC with "chambering" ...the way many Karate styles chamber a front kick -- especially a _lead leg _front kick --  is that it involves _retracting_ the leg, both before and after delivery to achieve the classical chamber. From a WC perspective, any withdrawing energy is an invitation for your opponent to stick, follow, and invade your space. In the following clip from Bill's own style of Isshin Ryu (one of the more "WC-ish" styles of Karate by the way) you can clearly see this withdrawal to chamber before and after each kick. By contrast, in the "WT" I learned, the leg was lifted straight up by the knee, toe up, solefacing forwards, and then the knee and hip thrust the leg forward. Upon completion the foot drops straight to the floor without withdrawing at all. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDYCEHl4zLw&feature=related

Now, here is a clip of Wong Shun Leung's Chum Kiu. You will notice that the front kicks aren't really much different than the previously illustrated kicks in Leung Ting's Chum Kiu. He does lift the knee... just not very high.






OK, and here's Leung Ting again for comparison:





Note: Both masters keep a very relaxed leg and neither one withdraws his kicks back to a rigid chamber. Some other observations on the lifting of the knee as you prepare to kick: If your opponent is kicking at the same time, your knee, shin, and foot act as a "wu-gherk" or "guarding leg" to cover and deflect attacks to your lower gates, just as your "wu-sau" or "guarding hand" covers centerline and protects your upper body. Moreover, if your opponent tries to charge in and jam your kick, the rising knee and shin automatically function as a shin or knee strike to your opponent's groin or gut, and can also penetrate his stance, destroying his foundation.... just by extending forward pressure. Very useful.


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## mook jong man (Nov 26, 2011)

geezer said:


> The biggest problem for WC with "chambering" ...the way many Karate styles chamber a front kick -- especially a _lead leg _front kick --  is that it involves _retracting_ the leg, both before and after delivery to achieve the classical chamber. From a WC perspective, any withdrawing energy is an invitation for your opponent to stick, follow, and invade your space. In the following clip from Bill's own style of Isshin Ryu (one of the more "WC-ish" styles of Karate by the way) you can clearly see this withdrawal to chamber before and after each kick. By contrast, in the "WT" I learned, the leg was lifted straight up by the knee, toe up, solefacing forwards, and then the knee and hip thrust the leg forward. Upon completion the foot drops straight to the floor without withdrawing at all.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDYCEHl4zLw&feature=related



That's exactly right , one of the most important functions of the Wing Chun kicks is to enable you to "bridge the gap" safely and get into chi sau range.
If your foot is not dropping straight to the floor you are not gaining any distance at all on your opponent and you are no better off than when you started , becoming easy pickings for long range kickers and punchers.

You are also not capitolising on using the forward momentum of your body mass to generate the power in your hand striking when your foot does hit the floor , because your leg has come straight back to your stance instead of trying to gain distance , your centre of mass has not moved at all , it is essentially a wasted movement.


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## Eric_H (Nov 26, 2011)

mook jong man said:


> That's exactly right , one of the most important functions of the Wing Chun kicks is to enable you to "bridge the gap" safely and get into chi sau range.



For of what I learned of YM wing chun, this is true.

In Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun this is a false statement - we don't use kicks to bridge and we don't look to close to chi sao. That's what our Kiu Sao is for - engagement.

Can't remember what the Chi Sim strategy for moving in was, too many years since it and it wasn't trained deeply enough.


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## mook jong man (Nov 26, 2011)

Eric_H said:


> For of what I learned of YM wing chun, this is true.
> 
> In Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun this is a false statement - we don't use kicks to bridge and we don't look to close to chi sao. That's what our Kiu Sao is for - engagement.
> 
> Can't remember what the Chi Sim strategy for moving in was, too many years since it and it wasn't trained deeply enough.



When I say chi sau range I just mean arm range or punching range not literally chi sau.

If you don't use kicks to bridge the gap and you want to initiate the attack then how do you safely traverse the gap without you yourself getting kicked by the opponent as you are moving into punching range?
 Because bridging the gap techniques serve the double function of guarding and attacking.

The only thing I can think of is you must wait until the opponent is in stepping range before you move in , is that about right.


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## Em MacIntosh (Nov 26, 2011)

Chambered kicks are more for "stabbing" (getting around obstructions), non-chambered kicks are a swing even if the striking surface travels in a straight line the lever still has to travel in a circular motion.  While a non-chambered kick does indeed move at a higher velocity, the lever is exposed longer and the entire leg is a much bigger target than the bottom of the foot in a chambered kick stabbing in and stabbing out.  As to being jammed there are a ton of what if's but my experience has been with chambered kicks there's a smaller jamming window and if jammed your punishment isn't as immediate, off balanced etc becomes a different subject...with a non-chambered kick being jammed means instant *thwack* on the shin or knee by a knee or elbow, possibly with breaking force.  Leg-blocks have me extremely wary of using a roundhouse, let-alone non-chambered kicks.
That being said there's tremendous kinetic energy in a non-chambered kick, just don't transfer the energy to their knee with your shin.  For footsweeps the power of the circle comes in handy.
I like knees, less risk and it caters to leg blocks  This almost always chambers my leg for a kick, which can become a step, which can become a trap.  I also learned in foot fighting to keep my sole above theirs, above their knee, above their shin etc to "kick down their leg".  I've found non-chambered kicks are easier to catch with my feet (and knees) while chambered kicks are easier to catch with the hands or something like a mikazuki geri-uke (crescent kick block) than they are to jam.  Against a non-chambered kick use the "sack of antlers" defense.
Just my experiences such as they are.


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## mook jong man (Nov 26, 2011)

Em MacIntosh said:


> Chambered kicks are more for "stabbing" (getting around obstructions), non-chambered kicks are a swing even if the striking surface travels in a straight line the lever still has to travel in a circular motion.  While a non-chambered kick does indeed move at a higher velocity, the lever is exposed longer and the entire leg is a much bigger target than the bottom of the foot in a chambered kick stabbing in and stabbing out.  As to being jammed there are a ton of what if's but my experience has been with chambered kicks there's a smaller jamming window and if jammed your punishment isn't as immediate, off balanced etc becomes a different subject...with a non-chambered kick being jammed means instant *thwack* on the shin or knee by a knee or elbow, possibly with breaking force.  Leg-blocks have me extremely wary of using a roundhouse, let-alone non-chambered kicks.
> That being said there's tremendous kinetic energy in a non-chambered kick, just don't transfer the energy to their knee with your shin.  For footsweeps the power of the circle comes in handy.
> I like knees, less risk and it caters to leg blocks  This almost always chambers my leg for a kick, which can become a step, which can become a trap.  I also learned in foot fighting to keep my sole above theirs, above their knee, above their shin etc to "kick down their leg".  I've found non-chambered kicks are easier to catch with my feet (and knees) while chambered kicks are easier to catch with the hands or something like a mikazuki geri-uke (crescent kick block) than they are to jam.  Against a non-chambered kick use the "sack of antlers" defense.
> Just my experiences such as they are.



This is the whole crux of the matter , when the non chambered kicks are launched from the correct Wing Chun stance.
Which in our lineage means either leg has equal opportunity to strike , then there is no detection , the movement is so direct and non telegraphic that there is little hope in stopping it.

At the type of range in Wing Chun that we are talking about there is no pre movement , there is no shoulder movement to give the game away.
One minute his foot is on the floor the next instant it is smashing into your shins , knee cap or groin , there is no warning , any type of chambering action will result in the kick being jammed by the other guys shins as he rushes forward to get into punching range.

It is pretty damn near impossible in my estimation to stop a low heel kick to the knee or shin , the distance of travel is only about three feet , Wing Chun guys have trouble with them , so anybody else will have no hope.

Anything can be stopped if it is detected in time , the problem arises when it is not detected in time because it is so direct and there is no pre movement to warn of the impending attack.

Next time any of you do chi sau , both of you put on some shin pads and as you are doing chi sau start low heel kicking each others knee/shins randomly.
I guarantee you won't be stopping too many and if you do , let me know because I want to come and study with you.


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## geezer (Nov 26, 2011)

Em MacIntosh said:


> ...Against a non-chambered kick use the "sack of antlers" defense.



??? OK, I'm trying to imagine this. Little help, please!


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## mook jong man (Nov 26, 2011)

geezer said:


> ??? OK, I'm trying to imagine this. Little help, please!



I don't know anything about a sack of antlers , but I remember dropping like a sack of **** when I got kicked in the shin lol.


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## Buka (Nov 26, 2011)

What a great thread.

I've known some Wing Chun guys, man, they could kick the crap out of you.They didn't chamber anything. 
I've known some other guys who chamber their kicks like a shotgun, man, they could kick the crap out of you.


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## Eric_H (Nov 28, 2011)

mook jong man said:


> When I say chi sau range I just mean arm range or punching range not literally chi sau.
> 
> If you don't use kicks to bridge the gap and you want to initiate the attack then how do you safely traverse the gap without you yourself getting kicked by the opponent as you are moving into punching range?
> Because bridging the gap techniques serve the double function of guarding and attacking.
> ...



Ok, misunderstood what you meant then.

We tend not to look at it as "bridging the gap," in Hung Fa Yi we have a pretty extensive set of strategy for how to read leverage points for entry - Half point theory, Kiu Sao Centerline, Tien Yan Dei, Box Theory, Gate Theory - there's no way I can give you a simple "we do X" type of answer. Makes discussion kind of hard, sadly =/ Best thing I can say is we've got a ruleset to break things down for each dimension - front to back, left to right and vertical.


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## mook jong man (Nov 28, 2011)

Eric_H said:


> Ok, misunderstood what you meant then.
> 
> We tend not to look at it as "bridging the gap," in Hung Fa Yi we have a pretty extensive set of strategy for how to read leverage points for entry - Half point theory, Kiu Sao Centerline, Tien Yan Dei, Box Theory, Gate Theory - there's no way I can give you a simple "we do X" type of answer. Makes discussion kind of hard, sadly =/ Best thing I can say is we've got a ruleset to break things down for each dimension - front to back, left to right and vertical.



No worries brother , some things can be pretty hard to explain in just text.

But I think I have a rough idea of what you are talking about , my other theory was going to be that somehow you pass through a nearby worm hole , travel the space/time continuum across parallel dimensions and multiple universes.

You then end up exiting a worm hole behind your opponent , who you find has aged 50 years while you've been gone , you then kick out his zimmer frame causing him to fall to the ground and break his hip  thus defeating him.   :uhyeah:


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## Cyriacus (Nov 28, 2011)

mook jong man said:


> No worries brother , some things can be pretty hard to explain in just text.
> 
> But I think I have a rough idea of what you are talking about , my other theory was going to be that somehow you pass through a nearby worm hole , travel the space/time continuum across parallel dimensions and multiple universes.
> 
> You then end up exiting a worm hole behind your opponent , who you find has aged 50 years while you've been gone , you then kick out his zimmer frame causing him to fall to the ground and break his hip  thus defeating him.   :uhyeah:


...But what if He tried to Dodge as You did this, and You end up Warping INSIDE HIM. *Clasps hands over face*


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## yak sao (Nov 28, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> ...But what if He tried to Dodge as You did this, and You end up Warping INSIDE HIM. *Clasps hands over face*



No problem. This is where the wedge shape of the arms comes into play. We simply split him in half.


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## Cyriacus (Nov 28, 2011)

yak sao said:


> No problem. This is where the wedge shape of the arms comes into play. We simply split him in half.


True, but what if You got Blood on Your Shoes? Hm?


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## Em MacIntosh (Nov 28, 2011)

Sack of Antlers: Guy you play football with that always manages to feed you an elbow, knee or some other pointy bone when you tackle them.


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## Eric_H (Nov 28, 2011)

mook jong man said:


> No worries brother , some things can be pretty hard to explain in just text.
> 
> But I think I have a rough idea of what you are talking about , my other theory was going to be that somehow you pass through a nearby worm hole , travel the space/time continuum across parallel dimensions and multiple universes.
> 
> You then end up exiting a worm hole behind your opponent , who you find has aged 50 years while you've been gone , you then kick out his zimmer frame causing him to fall to the ground and break his hip  thus defeating him.   :uhyeah:



Lol, nice


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## mograph (Nov 29, 2011)

One of my Yiquan friends showed me a close-in technique: strike with the hands to distract the opponent from the low kick to the knee. The opponent blocks the hands but misses the kick. Of course, it only works in close.


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## mook jong man (Nov 29, 2011)

mograph said:


> One of my Yiquan friends showed me a close-in technique: strike with the hands to distract the opponent from the low kick to the knee. The opponent blocks the hands but misses the kick. Of course, it only works in close.



In Wing Chun we kick and punch at the same time as well.

Regarding the low heel kick to the knee/shin , we have a few jamming techniques to stop it .
But to be perfectly honest , if someone is fast and doesn't telegraph their intentions with their shoulders , then they are going to get you with it.

One defence I use that seems to work better than most is to just shift my leg back a few inches out of range so his kick just misses and then return fire with the same leg using a hook kick to his thigh.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 29, 2011)

mook jong man said:


> In Wing Chun we kick and punch at the same time as well.




A lot of CMA styles do this, Bagua, Taiji, Xingyi, Changquan, etc.


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## mook jong man (Nov 29, 2011)

Xue Sheng said:


> A lot of CMA styles do this, Bagua, Taiji, Xingyi, Changquan, etc.



Yes , the reasoning behind it being that you maybe good enough to deal with my hands , but are you good enough to deal with my hands and a leg at the same time.
The training exercise chi gerk develops the sensitivity in the legs needed to attack and defend at close range while the arms are preoccupied with attacking and defending the upper gates


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## mograph (Nov 30, 2011)

mook jong man said:


> One defence I use that seems to work better than most is to just shift my leg back a few inches out of range so his kick just misses and then return fire with the same leg using a hook kick to his thigh.


Ah. Do you do this as a matter of course, so when you see the hands come up, you move the leg back just in case the opponent kicks as well?


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## mook jong man (Nov 30, 2011)

mograph said:


> Ah. Do you do this as a matter of course, so when you see the hands come up, you move the leg back just in case the opponent kicks as well?



No we tend to do it as a reflex drill , both partners will be facing each other in the yjkym stance with their guards up.
They will be in low heel kicking range , one person initiates the low heel kick attack and the other person detecting the movement in the shoulders will then shift his targeted leg back an inch or two so the low heel kick just misses and then retaliates with that same leg with a hook kick to the thigh.

The exercise is beneficial to both partners as one of them learns to low heel kick with speed and without telegraphing from the shoulders , and the other partner learns to read the movement in the shoulders that warns of the impending kick and develops the reflex of pulling the leg back just out of range.

It's best to just work one side first , then the other leg , and then try for random , make sure to do it with shin pads on so that you can do it with realistic speed and power.


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