# So, Sword Duels do still happen nowadays?



## Maching (Jun 19, 2015)

I didn't think anyone dueled anymore. Got to searching around the web and came across something..."Dominican Machete Fighters." Seems they still duke it out with swords there. If this is true, why does it seem no one knows about them and only knows about the Filipino blade arts and Japanese sword fighting?

I could only find one book on the Dominican thing...but there are countless materials on the other stuff. From what I gather the Japanese sword fighting and FIlippino fighting doesn't actual fight anymore...but these guys in the Dominican test their stuff "live."

If this is true why is it such a mystery or is it just too dangerous to look into it more (if they are actually chopping each other up over there)?


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## Langenschwert (Jun 19, 2015)

Was that the Papa Machete video? Pretty neat little mini-doc. 






Rural areas all over the world still settle disputes with longer blades like machetes and whatnot. Up until WWII, there were fraternal duels in Germany (mensur duelling) which were formalized affairs designed to give the participants a scar on the face known as a "schmiss". People still do epee duels with "points d'arret" to keep the tip from penetrating very far, so just a small amount of blood is drawn. There are a few old masters of sword & buckler left in the mountains of the Georgian Republic, complete with missing fingers:


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## Maching (Jun 19, 2015)

That is interesting but was talking about this:

From Machete Fights to Paradise The Machete Fighters of the Dominican Republic Daniel Dimarzio 9781300348146 Amazon.com Books

and this:











They actually maim and kill each other their quite often in sword/knife duels...I believe it from those videos. Wouldn't take much for them to have turned out deadly. Imagine what you don't see on camera.


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## Blindside (Jun 19, 2015)

Watch when the guy in the white shirt attacks, that isn't just wild flailing, he is mixing high and lowline striking, that isn't an accident, he has had training.





or watch this one:





I have never seen video of it happening, but I have heard of it still happening in the Philippines, some even fairly recently (last decade).


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## Maching (Jun 19, 2015)

That is the point I am trying to make (Blindside)...they seem trained. I am glad you brought it up because from what I have read about this it seems to be overlooked. It seems to be common sense but if these people fight with long blades (machetes aka SWORDS) on a regular basis they must have developed some system to keep themselves alive in an actual encounter. 

It is really interesting to me how popular the Filipino blade arts are...and the Japanese blade arts etc. when they are in no way tested like these people are doing in the Dominican. These guys in the Dominican are literally killing each other in duels...right now in 2015. And it is not some freak occurrence it happens regularly.


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## Maching (Jun 19, 2015)

This seems to be the main source of info (there is not much out there):

Training in Dominican Martial Arts the Machete - Exploring the World Through Martial Arts

Machete Figthers - Exploring the World Through Martial Arts

The Problem with the Dominican Martial Arts - Exploring the World Through Martial Arts

Dominican Sword Fights - Exploring the World Through Martial Arts


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## Langenschwert (Jun 20, 2015)

It's not like JSA wasn't tested in the past. There are only so many ways to use a bladed implement. When I watch the Papa Machete video, I see some techniques that are straight out of Leckuchner's 1482 manual on the messer and a liitle bit of Meyer. Machete fights still happen in the Philippines too.

That book looks super interesting. Some folks in the video look trained, and the guy with the wrapped arm reminded me of stuff I've seen in HEMA.

I'm not sure what you're getting at though. Yes, they're fighting with machetes. Yes, some look trained. It's not really a mystery. If you're going to walk around with a sword expecting to get into sword fights, you're going to train, or you won't be walking around getting into sword fights for very long. In our age of social media, these things are becoming more known. I don't think it's a deliberate "secret" though.

Is there a system? Most likely for some. The one guy did some sweet level changes. It's sad that they're so desperate that they have to go about hacking at each other. That's no way to live.

Any sword art that was used for real combat is going to look a fair amount like all the others. There's no "secret sauce" that the Dominicans have that others don't. They're just unfortunate enough to have to do it for real.


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## Maching (Jun 20, 2015)

Langenschwert, I totally agree. I don't think one group of people have anything over another. I just found it interesting that many people claim this or that in regards to blade fighting and we finally have an example....HERE IT IS! Not the back in the day, or I heard my teacher did this or that type of thing. Here it is in video...you can see what a fight with a sword actually looks like. Probably not what most people would think, or would "like" it to look like. And these are only a glimpse into what actually goes on there...the really crazy stuff isn't on youtube. 

In a way, it actually reminds me of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (BJJ). Back in the day nobody ever thought an incredible martial art would spring from Latin America and dominate all others. Yet, it did. It just took publicity to prove it. This reminds me of the same thing. It is not Asian or European...it is from Latin America and it reeks of authenticity. Yet, it is being ignored because why? Because it is from Latin America and the practitioners aren't Asian or white? Interesting to think about.


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## Hyoho (Jun 20, 2015)

Blindside said:


> Watch when the guy in the white shirt attacks, that isn't just wild flailing, he is mixing high and lowline striking, that isn't an accident, he has had training.
> 
> or watch this one:
> 
> I have never seen video of it happening, but I have heard of it still happening in the Philippines, some even fairly recently (last decade).


Yes it does happen in the Philippines. My copra climber sliced up his neighbor last year. I use the word slice as his cuts were very precise. He hid on another island but came back and was forgiven after paying the other guys medical expenses. They use blades every single day. The women are just as adept as men. Even kids take bolo to school.

In the first video on the thread with the injury they appear to clashing blades and not actually attacking each other. Looks like Dominican guys don't sharpen blades like Filipino. My blades cleanly slice a 10 inch banana stem in one cut. Filipino tend to use a cut and twist action.


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## Langenschwert (Jun 20, 2015)

Maching said:


> Langenschwert, I totally agree. I don't think one group of people have anything over another. I just found it interesting that many people claim this or that in regards to blade fighting and we finally have an example....HERE IT IS! Not the back in the day, or I heard my teacher did this or that type of thing. Here it is in video...you can see what a fight with a sword actually looks like. Probably not what most people would think, or would "like" it to look like. And these are only a glimpse into what actually goes on there...the really crazy stuff isn't on youtube.
> 
> In a way, it actually reminds me of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (BJJ). Back in the day nobody ever thought an incredible martial art would spring from Latin America and dominate all others. Yet, it did. It just took publicity to prove it. This reminds me of the same thing. It is not Asian or European...it is from Latin America and it reeks of authenticity. Yet, it is being ignored because why? Because it is from Latin America and the practitioners aren't Asian or white? Interesting to think about.



Ah, OK.

It's like finding living dinosaurs or something, yeah? I can see the interest then, as in: how much do historical blade arts resemble what's being done today? The main difference I see is a lack of polish (level change guy excepted) in the machete fights shown. Hardly surprising, with adrenaline and all that. They are likely in a state of near-panic. Historically, many of those who fought with blades in a "classical" style were full-time warriors (or martially inclined priests such as Leckuchner) and could develop things to a high level that a modern civilian doesn't have time for and were eventually inured to such adrenaline dumps. So there will be differences: machetes also don't thrust very well, etc. However, look here: It's my friends from Blood and Iron Martial Arts doing single stick fencing (which used to be an Olympic event!) with analysis by Skallagrim:






You can certainly see the parallels, convergent evolution and all that. Or maybe even influence from colonial sailors who might have done singlestick, cutlass or what have you. Might be worth looking into seeing if there actually was a colonial naval influence.

I have no problem believing an effective martial art (or other art) comes out of Latin America. I don't think it was ignored so much as unknown. If you look at Japanese and Filipino blade arts and their spread, they have one thing in common: American military presence through which to spread to the U.S. BJJ spread as early UFC fights were aired in the U.S.: the development of mass media obviated the need for diffusion through military occupation.

The sad thing is, many Filipino martial arts get much more credit in the West than they do in the Philippines, much the way Irish stickfighting and pugilism aren't embraced by the Irish. My first foray in the martial arts was FMA (Arnis de Mano), and that was 30 years ago in ultra-white small-town Canada!


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## Maching (Jun 20, 2015)

_"Yes it does happen in the Philippines. My copra climber sliced up his neighbor last year. I use the word slice as his cuts were very precise. He hid on another island but came back and was forgiven after paying the other guys medical expenses. They use blades every single day. The women are just as adept as men. Even kids take bolo to school.

In the first video on the thread with the injury they appear to clashing blades and not actually attacking each other. Looks like Dominican guys don't sharpen blades like Filipino. My blades cleanly slice a 10 inch banana stem in one cut. Filipino tend to use a cut and twist action."
_
Ok, where is your proof? I have read a lot of claims about the Philippines but have seen nothing to back them up. The fact is if there were videos or proof that sh*t would be publicized to all hell to sell the Filipino blade arts. Did the guy he attacked actually have a sword/knife to defend himself? Sure, anywhere people have blades around a lot, like the Philippines fights will occur sometimes...probably very rarely as there is no proof except internet stories. The difference is in the Dominican they happen constantly and it is part of their culture. It goes back a long way, and they take pride in dueling it out instead of shooting each other if the option is available. 

Trust me, they sharpen their blades. Do some research (even the link above) and you will find people getting seriously injured. The videos where people were killed get removed. I found one video of a young man from a neighborhood in the Dominican Republic who had his neck sliced open and they were working on him in the hospital. The cut from the machete looked like it was done by a surgical instrument...you could see the anatomy of the inside of his neck. The guy just laid there, awake and acting like he had stubbed his toe. In the comments they talked about how the people from his neighborhood were skilled fighters and very brave...and this horrific injury didn't even seem to faze him. I don't know if he lived or not. 

The whole sharp blade thing...people who actually use their blades know they will get dull from use. The Dominicans carry the things all over and use them for everything from butchering to carpentry. They sharpen them of course but it would be impossible to keep them razor sharp all of the time with how they use them. That is one reason they are so damn skilled with them....they actually use them. All the time.


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## Maching (Jun 20, 2015)

_"You can certainly see the parallels, convergent evolution and all that. Or maybe even influence from colonial sailors who might have done singlestick, cutlass or what have you. Might be worth looking into seeing if there actually was a colonial naval influence.

I have no problem believing an effective martial art (or other art) comes out of Latin America. I don't think it was ignored so much as unknown. If you look at Japanese and Filipino blade arts and their spread, they have one thing in common: American military presence through which to spread to the U.S. BJJ spread as early UFC fights were aired in the U.S.: the development of mass media obviated the need for diffusion through military occupation.

The sad thing is, many Filipino martial arts get much more credit in the West than they do in the Philippines, much the way Irish stickfighting and pugilism aren't embraced by the Irish. My first foray in the martial arts was FMA (Arnis de Mano), and that was 30 years ago in ultra-white small-town Canada!"_

Interesting video and what you pointed out is interesting as well. Times are definitely changing and technology like the cell phone camera makes everything more clear and to the point. Everyone in the world has cell phones with cameras now, even in 3rd world countries.


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## Hyoho (Jun 20, 2015)

Maching said:


> _"Yes it does happen in the Philippines. My copra climber sliced up his neighbor last year. I use the word slice as his cuts were very precise. He hid on another island but came back and was forgiven after paying the other guys medical expenses. They use blades every single day. The women are just as adept as men. Even kids take bolo to school.
> 
> In the first video on the thread with the injury they appear to clashing blades and not actually attacking each other. Looks like Dominican guys don't sharpen blades like Filipino. My blades cleanly slice a 10 inch banana stem in one cut. Filipino tend to use a cut and twist action."
> _
> Ok, where is your proof? I have read a lot of claims about the Philippines but have seen nothing to back them up. The fact is if there were videos or proof that sh*t would be publicized to all hell to sell the Filipino blade arts. Did the guy he attacked actually have a sword/knife to defend himself? Sure, anywhere people have blades around a lot, like the Philippines fights will occur sometimes...probably very rarely as there is no proof except internet stories. The difference is in the Dominican they happen constantly and it is part of their culture. It goes back a long way, and they take pride in dueling it out instead of shooting each other if the option is available.



ROFLMAO proof? How about five stacks of files and a seven year backlog of crimes sitting on the court office?  Not all violence with blades but "This is the Philippines". Only last week I saw a blade fight on the road outside the market opposite the police station. And NO, I don't YouTube this for proof. I really get sick to death of silly YouTubes to prove a point. I'm talking about 'reality'. That's the society here.

Locally its quite Three cousins stabbed another one 23 times a while back. They threw bombs in the two inter-island buses down the mountain and shot the two drivers. It costs P10,000 (USD 223) here to have someone killed. Life is cheap. Normally they just play a lot of bingo and get very drunk. We ALL carry blades unless we are going shopping. With cobras wandering all over the jungle it would be suicidal not too. Here a blade is an agricultural tool and something we could use to defend ourselves if necessary. But with locals its more of not losing face and proving a point that gets them going.

As to sharpening a half sharpened blade does far more damage as the serrated edge saws in.


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## Maching (Jun 20, 2015)

_"ROFLMAO proof? How about five stacks of files and a seven year backlog of crimes sitting on the court office? Not all violence with blades but "This is the Philippines". Only last week I saw a blade fight on the road outside the market opposite the police station. And NO, I don't YouTube this for proof. I really get sick to death of silly YouTubes to prove a point. I'm talking about 'reality'. That's the society here.

Locally its quite Three cousins stabbed another one 23 times a while back. They threw bombs in the two inter-island buses down the mountain and shot the two drivers. It costs P10,000 (USD 223) here to have someone killed. Life is cheap. Normally they just play a lot of bingo and get very drunk. We ALL carry blades unless we are going shopping. With cobras wandering all over the jungle it would be suicidal not too. Here a blade is an agricultural tool and something we could use to defend ourselves if necessary. But with locals its more of not losing face and proving a point that gets them going.

As to sharpening a half sharpened blade does far more damage as the serrated edge saws in."_

Interesting to know. I think most 3rd world countries deal with a lot violence due to the poverty etc. Honestly, I am more interested in the sword fighting angle. Knife fights are obviously more common around the world. Hell, want to find some great knife fighters look no further than prisons in the US. They are always stabbing each other up in those places. 

As far as the sword fighting (with machetes)...I haven't seen proof of that anywhere else like these Dominican Fighters. Yes, again it might happen once in awhile in other places. But, as far as dueling...one person with a sword going toe-to-toe with another person with a sword trying to kill one another...it is insane to me how often it happens in the Dominican Republic and there is more than enough proof to back it up. It's like stepping back in time or something and I can't believe they still do it.


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## Hyoho (Jun 20, 2015)

So what you are saying is that Dominican Machete is an art form of prowess? Isn't Dominica also a third world country?

When you carry and use a blade six days a week your ability improves the same as being in a training hall. You dont have to go hand to hand to improve cutting skills. The only difference is when faced with an opponent they move and cut back.

Add to this natural fighting ability. We do MA because we enjoy it and not all are good at it. Likewise there are many that never do MA that are good fighters. I should add that FMA is included in UNI PhysEd. along with Aikido, Judo Karate etc

I don't do FMA but seeing the ability of guys here every day who can not only handle one but two blades at once. I have great respect for them. Looking back at Lapu Lapu they certainly managed to defend their country. Living in the Philippines is also a time slip. The guy below balances and cuts.


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## Maching (Jun 20, 2015)

_"So what you are saying is that Dominican Machete is an art form of prowess? Isn't Dominica also a third world country?"
_
Dominica is a different country. Common mistake, these fighters are from the Dominican Republic...it is a totally different place. Also, a lot of people bring up the Haiti machete fighting thing...again that is a totally different country. The Dominican Republic and Haiti share the same island and are neighbors....but they are very different cultures and the machete styles appear very different (at least to me, I'm no expert though). There is a long history of conflict between Haiti and the DR (Dominican Republic).

Looking at it, it seems the Dominican Republic and Philippines have a lot in common....tropical climate, third world countries etc. Both cultures use blades all the time in daily life.  Also, both countries used blades in their history to successfully defend their people (from what I gather at least).

Would be interesting to see a Filipino blade master and a Dominican blade expert share their arts. Who knows, might have a lot in common.


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## Maching (Jun 20, 2015)

Also, someone brought up medical care etc. As far as I know, medical care there is not very good unless you are rich. Also, there is no 911...well there might be but the police and/or an ambulance won't show up for a few days if they show up at all. That's what I've been told by people who lived there.


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## Hyoho (Jun 20, 2015)

Dominica and the Philippines have more than just a little in common. The Spanish, Catholics and corruption. Which is why they are still in the dark ages.


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## Maching (Jun 20, 2015)

_"Dominica and the Philippines have more than just a little in common. The Spanish, Catholics and corruption. Which is why they are still in the dark ages."_

Interesting point. Can't argue with that. I am sure the Spanish influence from back in the day has bled into the blade skills of today as well...even if the Dominican Republic and Philippines have developed their own styles.


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## WaterGal (Jun 24, 2015)

I saw a documentary a couple years ago about the history of kung fu in the African-American community, and they did have a guy talking about Afro-Carribean machete fighting.  I think he said it had its origins in traditional African fighting techniques that were brought over by slaves, but I might be misremembering it.


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## Maching (Jun 24, 2015)

WaterGal said:


> I saw a documentary a couple years ago about the history of kung fu in the African-American community, and they did have a guy talking about Afro-Carribean machete fighting.  I think he said it had its origins in traditional African fighting techniques that were brought over by slaves, but I might be misremembering it.



From what I can find in the Dominican Republic it's a mix of their Taino, European and African cultures that make up the populations background. The techniques come from these but also from the guys currently fighting making up new stuff or their own styles.


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## Tulisan (Jun 28, 2015)

Looks like this was getting heated  I just typed in "street machete fight" on tube and found videos in Mexico, Morocco, Germany, Trinidad, Thailand, Dominican Republic and the Philippines. And that was just on the first page. My step-dad was a fireman/EMT in Alameda, CA and saw blade wounds almost everyweek for 20+ years. My sister-in-law is an ER nurse here in Metro Manila were I now live and she sees multiple blade wound victims daily.. People use what's available when they want to be violent - it doesn't mean they necessarily  trained in martial arts. In the US the number one tool used in homicide after guns & blades is a hammer. Other than Thor, I know of no one claiming to be a master of the hammer.

Some countries just have more individuals who have kept alive combative and defensive blade culture. It's never the art, its the person. And even then it depends on what they are fighting for.

I've been researching the historical and cultural influences on Filipino Martial Arts since the late 80's. I'm still running across stuff I had never heard of. I have a friend based in Belgium who is deep into HEMA Historical European Martial Arts: he's also master of the Montante a 2-handed 5'6" blade used for multiple opponents. Before him, i had never heard of this weapon used by the Spanish. It is interesting to note that a number of former Spanish colonies still have instructors of their blade cultures - whether indigenous and/or Spanish influenced.

Here's a cool sample of something he found. During the Sangley Rebellion in 1603, the Spanish forces consisted of a core of Spanish troops, supplemented by Japanese mercenaries and Pampangan troops. Here is a short passage describing them in combat:
"During this pause, a thousand Pampangan Indians entered the city, armed with arquebuses and pikes. Then, sallying forth to fight with the enemy, along with some Spaniards who led them and urged them on, they killed more than a thousand Sangleys."

 Original text: En este interin entraron desorro en la ciudad mil indios Pampangos arcabuzeros y piqueros, y saliendo a pelear con los enemigos con algunos Españoles que los capitaneavan y animavan, mataron mas de mil Sangleyes…

Source: Primera parte de los veinte i un libros rituales i monarchia Indiana, by Juan de Torquemada, p. 805 (Madrid, 1615)

He's always finding new stuff. Sometime it leads me to find things that others in my research communities that I have never seen. Sometimes it has me rethink my hypothesis. Just because we've never seen something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Lastly duels, were something for upper and middle class folks. It often dealt with honor. Watch the movie, "The Duelist" which is historically correct based on a real life challenge that fought multiple times of years. Poor folks just fight. I've seen less than a handful of street altercations with blades. They are not romantic, stylistic or even pretty. They are common and happen all over the world.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Hyoho (Jun 28, 2015)

The videos are not too good at all. They are clearly not representative of the skills of a provincial Filipino. City dwellers don't do what my guy did over the last two days. Cleared over 3000 sq meters of jungle over 2 meters high with a bolo. He also dismembers animals in record time. These guys do this 'every day' and do more cutting in one day than I ever did doing kendo suburi in a week. Using anything available is exactly what Kobudo is about. Real Budo is "not nice". Hadn't you noticed that a lot of the adapted weapons are agricultural tools?


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## crazydiamond (Jun 28, 2015)

Part of my training includes FMA and FMA of course includes of weapons training. Sometimes I think - why am I training to deal with weapon fighting (especially long weapons) here in the US? But then yes..... from Machetes to baseball bats the attacks happen right here in the good old USA.


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## Maching (Jul 3, 2015)

Tulisan said:


> Looks like this was getting heated  I just typed in "street machete fight" on tube and found videos in Mexico, Morocco, Germany, Trinidad, Thailand, Dominican Republic and the Philippines. And that was just on the first page. My step-dad was a fireman/EMT in Alameda, CA and saw blade wounds almost everyweek for 20+ years. My sister-in-law is an ER nurse here in Metro Manila were I now live and she sees multiple blade wound victims daily.. People use what's available when they want to be violent - it doesn't mean they necessarily  trained in martial arts. In the US the number one tool used in homicide after guns & blades is a hammer. Other than Thor, I know of no one claiming to be a master of the hammer.
> 
> Some countries just have more individuals who have kept alive combative and defensive blade culture. It's never the art, its the person. And even then it depends on what they are fighting for.
> 
> ...



I think it's no mystery that injuries from blades happen all over. Knife wounds etc. Most of the time it is someone stabbing someone else that doesn't have a knife...an unarmed person. What I think sets the Dominican thing apart is that BOTH the people fighting are armed with swords (machetes which is really a sword when used like that) and they are squaring up to one another like it is medieval times or something. 

I can see where two people could go at it with knives once in a while in certain places around the world but these people are fighting with swords. Again, sure it happens in other places rarely, but there is a CRAZY amount of videos of it coming out of the Dominican Republic. There has to be more to it...I highly doubt it's a new phenomenon. Check out this one...it is really insane:


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## Hyoho (Jul 4, 2015)

Maching said:


> I think it's no mystery that injuries from blades happen all over. Knife wounds etc. Most of the time it is someone stabbing someone else that doesn't have a knife...an unarmed person. What I think sets the Dominican thing apart is that BOTH the people fighting are armed with swords (machetes which is really a sword when used like that) and they are squaring up to one another like it is medieval times or something.
> 
> I can see where two people could go at it with knives once in a while in certain places around the world but these people are fighting with swords. Again, sure it happens in other places rarely, but there is a CRAZY amount of videos of it coming out of the Dominican Republic. There has to be more to it...I highly doubt it's a new phenomenon. Check out this one...it is really insane:


They are just flailing away like idiots and dont even close the distance to really attack. And you even started another thread on this? Blades in other cultures are both agricultural tool and weapons if need be. I fail to see any relationship to this and martial arts.


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## Maching (Jul 4, 2015)

Hyoho said:


> They are just flailing away like idiots and dont even close the distance to really attack. And you even started another thread on this? Blades in other cultures are both agricultural tool and weapons if need be. I fail to see any relationship to this and martial arts.



Do I sense that you feel threatened by this? Your Filipino stuff you talk about wouldn't work against these people...because it is practiced in a gym to get peoples money. Try your hand against someone who is ALSO holding a sword and it would look similar to this...or you'd end up dead. Close the distance? They were trying to kill each other, couldn't you hear the blades clanging and hitting the concrete steps? These videos are the nice ones, here is one where a guy almost cuts off a hand/arm while fighting a mob and a guy with a huge stick (guy with stick gets severely injured by sword):






People in the Dominican Republic often die by the machete. You don't think there are people there that have developed a system to stay alive?

Where is your proof from the Philippines (sword duels)? I think it is all BS. There are no videos because it doesn't happen. Unless you are of course talking about using a knife on an unarmed person.

I love people like you that think martial arts would look like the movies. I hope you never have to find out the truth in real life, you will be sorely disappointed.


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## Maching (Jul 4, 2015)

...and please keep bringing up the agricultural thing. They are cutting human beings not trees. If you haven't noticed yet, most theses videos are from the city, all concrete. They are using the machete as a weapon not just a farm tool that happens to turn into a weapon. I really hope you can find ONE video from the Philippines of two people dueling with swords. Because even if you did I would come back at you with TWENTY from the Dominican Republic. They might have fought in the past in the Philippines with swords...but it doesn't happen now. They just try to make money teaching it. Can't blame them for that but they don't fight with swords anymore, and in the Dominican Republic they still do. It is that simple.


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## Hyoho (Jul 4, 2015)

So you are just going on and on and on telling us that Dominicans are duelling sword fighters using videos of uncontrolled stupidity and street violence?

Why would I feel threatened by anything? I have no vested interest in FMA and no knowledge of money making clubs. FMA is part of the curriculum in some University PhysEd where I teach. I dont even practice it! I do know what I see around me and what the average provincials ability is with a blade and that cutting objects like Japanese tameshigiri tests not only a blade but the skill of its wielder. To repeat an iaijutsu mentor, "We should practice with a blade to hone our skills and if, if ever the need arises defend ourselves". Kids here take blades to school and respect a blade for what it is. Only yesterday my caregiver killed a 2 meter cobra in the garden. And for sure they move a bit faster than your 'dominican warriors'.

I really don't need to spend all my time posting videos on here to prove anything. If you are such an expert on these matters and other arts I suggest you fill in your profile to back it up.

P.S. Wasn't the injured guy in your last video shouting police police? They have chairs, wood they throw anything they can lays their hands on. It's NOT a duel.


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## Tez3 (Jul 4, 2015)

and this? The Haitian Machete Fencing Project


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## Maching (Jul 4, 2015)

Hyoho said:


> So you are just going on and on and on telling us that Dominicans are duelling sword fighters using videos of uncontrolled stupidity and street violence?
> 
> Why would I feel threatened by anything? I have no vested interest in FMA and no knowledge of money making clubs. FMA is part of the curriculum in some University PhysEd where I teach. I dont even practice it! I do know what I see around me and what the average provincials ability is with a blade and that cutting objects like Japanese tameshigiri tests not only a blade but the skill of its wielder. To repeat an iaijutsu mentor, "We should practice with a blade to hone our skills and if, if ever the need arises defend ourselves". Kids here take blades to school and respect a blade for what it is. Only yesterday my caregiver killed a 2 meter cobra in the garden. And for sure they move a bit faster than your 'dominican warriors'.
> 
> ...



Actually, they really are duels. Look at these videos...two men in each video fighting each other with swords. That's a duel:











This book is full of duels and other situations where people from the Dominican Republic fight with swords:

http://www.amazon.com/Machete-Parad...1TY_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1436037738&sr=1-1

You have a picture of Miyamoto Musashi as a child and a quote supposedly attributed to him. You should study his stuff more, he often fought with whatever was around him. Including pieces of wood. I am sure if there was a video camera back then it wouldn't look very "pretty." 

_*and this? The Haitian Machete Fencing Project*_

Haiti and the Dominican share an island, the cultures are totally different though and whatever machete stuff is being practiced in Haiti is not what the Dominicans are doing when they fight on the streets with swords. Two different styles of fighting (might have some similarities but from what I can dig up they are very different). Just compare the videos it looks different.


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## Tez3 (Jul 4, 2015)

Maching said:


> Just compare the videos it looks different.



Actually I didn't say it was the same, I put it up for comment not a put down. I'm aware that they share an island, who isn't.
The people in the videos are just fighting, nothing more nothing less, it's fighting. Duelling? Not so much so, just fights, you can't elevate them to mean something they aren't.

Machetes to many people mean this along with many other atrocities, http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ots-leave-500-dead-after-machete-attacks.html


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## FriedRice (Jul 4, 2015)

Blindside said:


> Watch when the guy in the white shirt attacks, that isn't just wild flailing, he is mixing high and lowline striking, that isn't an accident, he has had training.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Looks like a gentleman's fight with no intentions of  lethal strikes. Otherwise white shirt would be drenched in his own blood at 0:16 second mark.  He was clearly getting smacked with the flat part of the blade repeatedly and. Other guy had a clear shot for a thrusting stab right after, but didn't do it.  Cameras, witnesses...probably the prison system there is pretty rough for murderers.

And sugar cane plantations are big there, so I wouldn't want to go up against these guys, considering how proficient they should be, swinging machetes all day/365 for a living.


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## Tez3 (Jul 4, 2015)

FriedRice said:


> Looks like a gentleman's fight with no intentions of  lethal strikes. Otherwise white shirt would be drenched in his own blood at 0:16 second mark.  He was clearly getting smacked with the flat part of the blade repeatedly and. Other guy had a clear shot for a thrusting stab right after, but didn't do it.  Cameras, witnesses...probably the prison system there is pretty rough for murderers.
> 
> And sugar cane plantations are big there, so I wouldn't want to go up against these guys, considering how proficient they should be, swinging machetes all day/365 for a living.




Those are no gentlemen...


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## Tez3 (Jul 4, 2015)

Gentlemen do not brawl on the street.


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## Maching (Jul 5, 2015)

FriedRice said:


> Looks like a gentleman's fight with no intentions of  lethal strikes. Otherwise white shirt would be drenched in his own blood at 0:16 second mark.  He was clearly getting smacked with the flat part of the blade repeatedly and. Other guy had a clear shot for a thrusting stab right after, but didn't do it.  Cameras, witnesses...probably the prison system there is pretty rough for murderers.
> 
> And sugar cane plantations are big there, so I wouldn't want to go up against these guys, considering how proficient they should be, swinging machetes all day/365 for a living.



You are a smart one, why don't you go over there and see if they "smack you with the flat part of the blade repeatedly." They don't give a f*ck about the police as there aren't any to help you. If they want to kill you they will. You idiots make me laugh...why don't you buy a plane ticket to the Dominican Republic. Once you arrive there take a taxi to the nearest ghetto in Santo Domingo. Tell them you are a sword/knife fighter and see what happens to you. You will be robbed and left for dead after they slice you into ribbons. There will be no ambulance called to help you. No police will come to rescue you. They will take everything you have and kill you...and if you want to fight them with a sword/machete I am sure they would be more than happy to accommodate you.


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## Hyoho (Jul 5, 2015)

Maching said:


> You are a smart one, why don't you go over there and see if they "smack you with the flat part of the blade repeatedly." They don't give a f*ck about the police as there aren't any to help you. If they want to kill you they will. You idiots make me laugh...why don't you buy a plane ticket to the Dominican Republic. Once you arrive there take a taxi to the nearest ghetto in Santo Domingo. Tell them you are a sword/knife fighter and see what happens to you. You will be robbed and left for dead after they slice you into ribbons. There will be no ambulance called to help you. No police will come to rescue you. They will take everything you have and kill you...and if you want to fight them with a sword/machete I am sure they would be more than happy to accommodate you.


Oh dear, you are beginning to sound like an abusive troll. As you seem so keen in posting this stuff I had assumed you came from Dominica anyway. What exactly do you do? Not HNIR that's for sure as you seem to think Musashi did Iaijutsu. You seem to think 'we' are idiots' yet still you don't back anything up except with videos. It's ghetto fighting. There is probably far more of this in Africa than in Dominica


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## FriedRice (Jul 5, 2015)

Maching said:


> You are a smart one, why don't you go over there and see if they "smack you with the flat part of the blade repeatedly." They don't give a f*ck about the police as there aren't any to help you. If they want to kill you they will. You idiots make me laugh...why don't you buy a plane ticket to the Dominican Republic.



Why are you crying? He clearly struck the other guy multiple times with the flat part of the machete. Where's the blood?



> Once you arrive there take a taxi to the nearest ghetto in Santo Domingo. Tell them you are a sword/knife fighter and see what happens to you. You will be robbed and left for dead after they slice you into ribbons. There will be no ambulance called to help you. No police will come to rescue you. They will take everything you have and kill you...and if you want to fight them with a sword/machete I am sure they would be more than happy to accommodate you.



Are you butthurt over something? No one's disputing that it's a dangerous place. But not everyone's out to kill every time, duh?


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## Tez3 (Jul 5, 2015)




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## geezer (Jul 5, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> and this? The Haitian Machete Fencing Project



Tez, thanks for this interesting clip. Unlike the OP I see plenty in common between the machete and stick fighting arts of the Philipines, the Caribbean and parts of Latin America. The blending of Spanish sword techniques, native arts, and practical experience with agricultural tools used for defense and to settle fierce disputes ...all combined with a strong desire to come out alive will perforce result in certain commonalities.

On the other hand I really don't get the OP's insistence that such fighting only occurs in the D.R. Does he mean to tell us that people in the ghettos of Manila, or the gangs of El Salvador, or a million other rough places, don't fight "for reals" with knives and machetes?


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 5, 2015)

_*ATTENTION ALL USERS: Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Brian R. VanCise
-MartialTalk Moderator-*_


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## Maching (Jul 7, 2015)

Hyoho said:


> Oh dear, you are beginning to sound like an abusive troll. As you seem so keen in posting this stuff I had assumed you came from Dominica anyway. What exactly do you do? Not HNIR that's for sure as you seem to think Musashi did Iaijutsu. You seem to think 'we' are idiots' yet still you don't back anything up except with videos. It's ghetto fighting. There is probably far more of this in Africa than in Dominica





geezer said:


> Tez, thanks for this interesting clip. Unlike the OP I see plenty in common between the machete and stick fighting arts of the Philipines, the Caribbean and parts of Latin America. The blending of Spanish sword techniques, native arts, and practical experience with agricultural tools used for defense and to settle fierce disputes ...all combined with a strong desire to come out alive will perforce result in certain commonalities.
> 
> On the other hand I really don't get the OP's insistence that such fighting only occurs in the D.R. Does he mean to tell us that people in the ghettos of Manila, or the gangs of El Salvador, or a million other rough places, don't fight "for reals" with knives and machetes?



Hyoho, not sure how many times I have to tell you this but the DOMINICAN REPUBLIC is not the same as the DOMINICA. Two totally different countries and cultures. That mixed with the fact that I never said anything about Musashi doing Iaijutsu makes me totally discount anything you say. You were the first one to call people "idiots" by the way  About Musashi pointed out he used sticks or whatever else he could pick up in combat when he felt like it (similar to a video you criticized). Maybe you should brush up on the English language or something because you are making absolutely no sense. My only evidence is videos!? haha lol Well a picture is worth a thousand words and a video is...well pretty much fact. What you see is what happened.

About other places fighting with knives...sure it happens (usually only people attacking unarmed people though not duels). Machetes, not so much. Definitely not like the Dominican Republic where they will lay down guns and duel in the streets with swords to prove they are men (it's a macho thing). There's a whole book written about it and numerous videos...does it have something in common with other places around the world that used to fight with swords? I am sure it does. I am sure it is also unique in many ways too.


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## Hyoho (Jul 8, 2015)

So DR and D are different. Point taken. But it is a little confusing when they both call themselves Dominican

Musashi didn't use sticks or anything else he could pick up. But that's another subject and something you won't find out just looking at videos. Anyway that's another subject and hardly a comparison.

If you do a quick search you will see how many other countries use a machete. The whole of Latin America and Africa also use it.  You say its a macho thing to do? The term machete 'is' a diminute form of the word macho. I will digress on my use of the word idiots but can hardly withdraw using uneducated.

So what exactly is the point you are trying to make. That we should now recognize machete as a martial art? Martial Arts develop after educating people to get 'off' the street. Original fighting takes on an 'educational art form".

I guess that's why you don't see us all doing this kind of thing. Do you suggest we all go out there and do the macho thing and fight each other?


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## Hyoho (Jul 8, 2015)

Its interesting to look at  the world crime index rate. Out 442 cities worldwide Santo Domingo ranks around 23rd from the top. With a safety index of 26.54 not a place to go if you value your life. 67.71 chance of being attacked, safety walking alone at night 9.38.


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## geezer (Jul 8, 2015)

Maching said:


> About other places fighting with knives...sure it happens (usually only people attacking unarmed people though not duels). Machetes, not so much. Definitely not like the Dominican Republic where they will lay down guns and duel in the streets with swords to prove they are men (it's a macho thing). There's a whole book written about it and numerous videos...does it have something in common with other places around the world that used to fight with swords? I am sure it does. I am sure it is also unique in many ways too.



Maybe Machete dueling is a big thing in the DR, but it sure isn't the _only_ place where people still fight with swords, machetes and other large bladed weapons. A couple of minutes on youtube andI found these clips:

Recife Brazil, Machete y Daga duel:





Here's some people fighting with Machetes, stave, knives and staves in Columbia. Interestingly, they seem to have soldiers with assault rifles sort of acting like ...referees.





More from Columbia:





Not machetes, just a knife duel in the Philippines:
ww.youtube.com/watch?v=b-jUTvrsrjE

And, some other islanders (not Dominicans) fighting with machetes:





Finally, here are some really macho, machete wielding thugs terrorizing some tourists in El Salvador. Must be MS-13, La Mara Salvatrucha:





For some reason that last clip horrifies me the most!


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## Crazy Eyes (Jul 8, 2015)

You know, centuries ago, this is how civilized men settled their differences.  Nowadays, everyone goes crying to a lawyer every time they get their feelings hurt.  I say let's bring the duels back, let cold steel decide the winner.


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## Maching (Jul 10, 2015)

Hyoho said:


> So DR and D are different. Point taken. But it is a little confusing when they both call themselves Dominican
> 
> Musashi didn't use sticks or anything else he could pick up. But that's another subject and something you won't find out just looking at videos. Anyway that's another subject and hardly a comparison.
> 
> ...



Actually Musashi did use sticks and things laying around. When he fought Kojiro he used a wooden boat oar (a big stick) he grabbed from the boat before he went to fight him. He used a stick to kill his first man as a matter of fact. He also used a stick/piece of fire wood/wooden bow he was carving when he was confronted at his school. Just some examples. Point being, you don't need a sword, machete or any sharp instrument to kill or hurt someone. A crude piece of wood will do in the right hands. Musashi was in a league of his own, not comparing him to anything we see here.

However, if you could have seen him fight...or any samurai fight...what would it have looked like? Certainly not like the robotic movements you see in kata. It would probably look chaotic and crazy...similar to the machete fight videos. I highly doubt they cared how they looked while they were trying to survive and kill their enemy.

I am aware of where the word "machete" supposedly comes from. Not sure what your point is.

Never said we should all be fighting each other to the death with swords. That would be insane nowadays. But, I think most the martial arts that are practicing sword fighting (or knife fighting) could learn a thing or two from the Dominicans. They are actually putting their life on the line when they do it. It is not just theories, they are actively testing their methods in real combat. Something you almost never see in the real world today and has been largely lost to history and kata.


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## elder999 (Jul 10, 2015)

Maching said:


> Actually Musashi did use sticks and things laying around. When he fought Kojiro he used a wooden boat oar (a big stick) he grabbed from the boat before he went to fight him. He used a stick to kill his first man as a matter of fact. He also used a stick/piece of fire wood/wooden bow he was carving when he was confronted at his school. Just some examples. Point being, you don't need a sword, machete or any sharp instrument to kill or hurt someone. A crude piece of wood will do in the right hands. Musashi was in a league of his own, not comparing him to anything we see here.
> 
> However, if you could have seen him fight...or any samurai fight...what would it have looked like? Certainly not like the robotic movements you see in kata. It would probably look chaotic and crazy...similar to the machete fight videos. I highly doubt they cared how they looked while they were trying to survive and kill their enemy.
> .



Yer tellin' *Colin* about Musashi? 







...........just.........


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## Hyoho (Jul 10, 2015)

As I said this thread has nothing to do with Musashi whatever. However: He carved a boat oar into a blade Sanjaku Nisun on his way over to the island. He threw it away when he returned but carved another identical one to give to the Lord Hosokawa. That's in the Yatsushiro house in Kumamoto Ken when I last held it. The reason for this was it measures 2 sun longer than Sasakawa's Sanjaku (3 shaku blade). His use of wooden blades was because he abandoned live blades having no need for them. 

His waza is based upon Sen. A single defined devastating action based only upon the opponents attack. Nothing chaotic and crazy about it. The only swordsmen that teach waza are ones that survive. It is still taught without adaptation with exception to a few grey areas. If you want to start googling Musashi and open another thread to discuss his philosophy please free to do so. I dont need to google him at all. To make any comparison with DR macho machete street fighting has to be one of the most preposterous things I have ever heard. 

 It seems you are of the opinion that what we do nowadays with no protection is safe, maybe too safe as not to experience the possibility of serious injury? You would be wrong. Although we do our best not to get injured a trip to the hospital is sometimes required. If we didn't practice as realistically as possible there would be no point. 

So what do you actually practice and whatever makes you draw these conclusions? I'm guessing 'nothing'.


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## Maching (Jul 10, 2015)

Hyoho said:


> As I said this thread has nothing to do with Musashi whatever. However: He carved a boat oar into a blade Sanjaku Nisun on his way over to the island. He threw it away when he returned but carved another identical one to give to the Lord Hosokawa. That's in the Yatsushiro house in Kumamoto Ken when I last held it. The reason for this was it measures 2 sun longer than Sasakawa's Sanjaku (3 shaku blade). His use of wooden blades was because he abandoned live blades having no need for them.
> 
> His waza is based upon Sen. A single defined devastating action based only upon the opponents attack. Nothing chaotic and crazy about it. The only swordsmen that teach waza are ones that survive. It is still taught without adaptation with exception to a few grey areas. If you want to start googling Musashi and open another thread to discuss his philosophy please free to do so. I dont need to google him at all. To make any comparison with DR macho machete street fighting has to be one of the most preposterous things I have ever heard.
> 
> ...



And your point is...you were wrong? You said he never used sticks right? What would you classify that oar as? Yes, he used the blade (stick) because it was longer than Kojiro's who was known for using a very long blade in combat (Swallow technique). You really buy that he stopped using real blades because he became too good? He beat his first man to death with a stick while he was very young. Maybe he just liked using sticks, or liked the savagery of it.

Really that is his whole line of thought? Did you happen to miss in the Go Rin No Sho where he mentioned it is better to attack first if given the opportunity? What school of Musashi are you studying in?

I don't need to google him either my friend, been to Japan many times along with many other countries.


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## Maching (Jul 11, 2015)

elder999 said:


> Yer tellin' *Colin* about Musashi?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, I am doing just that. What do you know about Shinmen Musashi? You seem to think you know a lot...please fill us in.


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## elder999 (Jul 11, 2015)

Maching said:


> Yes, I am doing just that. What do you know about Shinmen Musashi? You seem to think you know a lot...please fill us in.



Not much of anything, really-in that regard, I am no one of any consequence. What I do know is that if I _did_ want to know anything of substance about Musashi, I would ask............I dunno.....one of the senior students of  Hyoho Niten Ichiryu,, a _menkyo_ holder in _*Musashii's style*_ I dunno....someone  like..........I dunno, someone who'd lived in Japan studying and teaching that art for more than 30 years like..............I dunno, *him.*





See, I know that's who Colin is.....you? Just trollish pixels polluting my screen....

Of course, all of this has nothing to do with the original post.....


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## Crazy Eyes (Jul 11, 2015)

I wonder if there are any laws against walking around with a rapier or katanna sheathed at your side as you walk down the street.


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## Maching (Jul 11, 2015)

elder999 said:


> Not much of anything, really-in that regard, I am no one of any consequence. What I do know is that if I _did_ want to know anything of substance about Musashi, I would ask............I dunno.....one of the senior students of  Hyoho Niten Ichiryu,, a _menkyo_ holder in _*Musashii's style*_ I dunno....someone  like..........I dunno, someone who'd lived in Japan studying and teaching that art for more than 30 years like..............I dunno, *him.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well, which school? There are a few claiming a line to Musashi. There is no end all, be all source of knowledge of him in Japan. There is no blood line to the school and there are ancient bits of records of him scattered all throughout Japan. Many historians have different opinions about who he exactly was and what he exactly did.

At any rate, I think Miyamoto Musashi was an awesome fighter. No argument there. If Hyoho (Colin) has trained in that style as you said it would explain to me why he feels threatened by the Dominican videos and the way they fight over there. He probably thought people didn't duel like that anymore, and now realized his style might not hold up in the real world. Musashi was an amazing fighter but I am sure, just like with everything else, his art would be unrecognizable to him today the way it is trained. That man was one of a kind, there is no comparison. But, that doesn't mean his art has held up over time to his standards. In the Go Rin No Sho he actually tells his students to go and duel from time to time to test the art. I am sure that part of his teachings died a LONG time ago.

Laws about carrying blades? I would think its different in each country no?


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## elder999 (Jul 11, 2015)

Crazy Eyes said:


> I wonder if there are any laws against walking around with a rapier or katanna sheathed at your side as you walk down the street.


Not in New Mexico. Not in Arizona.

Granted, that wouldn't stop someone from calling the cops on you if you made them nervous (you'd attract less attention with a pistol on your belt) or the cops showing up and asking you what's up, but there's no law against it.....



Maching said:


> Well, which school? There are a few claiming a line to Musashi. There is no end all, be all source of knowledge of him in Japan. There is no blood line to the school and there are ancient bits of records of him scattered all throughout Japan. Many historians have different opinions about who he exactly was and what he exactly did.



The Niten Hyoho Ichi-ryu can trace it's succession directly back to Musashi through 12 generations.




Soooooo, again you pollute my screen with trollish, meaningless pixels.



 
(and neither do you!)


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## Maching (Jul 11, 2015)

elder999 said:


> Not in New Mexico. Not in Arizona.
> 
> Granted, that wouldn't stop someone from calling the cops on you if you made them nervous (you'd attract less attention with a pistol on your belt) or the cops showing up and asking you what's up, but there's no law against it.....
> 
> ...



Wow did you copy and paste that all by yourself? I can do the same thing:

_"The Gosho-ha Hyōhō Niten Ichi-ryū disputed the lineage claiming that Iwami Toshio Gensho is the sole legal representative of Hyōhō Niten Ichi-ryū until 2007. Miyagawa Yasutaka established a line of Niten Ichi-ryū that continues to practice and thrive in the Kansai region of Japan. Miyagawa Yasutaka and Kiyonaga Tadanao were both students of Aoki Kikuo during the same period. This "Kansai" line, currently under 10th Headmaster Miyagawa Morito, is an alternate but equal lineage to the main line."_

Musashi traveled all over dueling and studying. While he did this he also taught others about his way. He influenced a lot of people from a young age. Not unheard of that other martial arts in Japan still carry on some of his teachings. There are numerous books published about this.

Anyway, I think this whole conversation has deteriorated and it is time for me to bow out. It started out as sword duels in modern times and now it is turning into a history conversation about Japan that has already been discussed numerous times all over the internet.

And frankly, I don't think I can sit through the boredom.


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## elder999 (Jul 11, 2015)

Maching said:


> Musashi traveled all over dueling and studying. While he did this he also taught others about his way. He influenced a lot of people from a young age. Not unheard of that other martial arts in Japan still carry on some of his teachings.



Name two.


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## geezer (Jul 11, 2015)

Crazy Eyes said:


> I wonder if there are any laws against walking around with a rapier or katanna sheathed at your side as you walk down the street.



*Not where I live*. Most people I know always carry a pair of pistols and a rapier or cutlass, and often a large bowie knife whenever they leave home.   ....OK. Maybe not, but _legally they could_ and no license would be required. Arizona is a funny place. 

On the other hand, if you are going to allow people to carry firearms openly or concealed without having to get a permit, why restrict blades? You gotta admit that wouldn't be logically consistent. And if you justify carrying guns based on the second amendment guaranteeing "the right to bear arms" ...at least as arms were conceived in the late 18th Century ...you know muskets, bayonets, small swords and hunting knives, then how can you justify the anti-blade restrictions in place in many jurisdictions in the U.S.?

_Now, @ Maching (_if he's still around) Let me repeat Hyoho's question from post 49, _*what arts do you practice?*_ Do you have any _personal_ experience in machete fighting as shown in your clips from the DR, or have you trained with someone who has? Or is this discussion all based on books, articles and Youtube clips?

BTW You should know that_ Elder_ has been in a knife altercation where the other guy died. He's not just some smart guy who knows a lot and expresses himself well.


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## Hyoho (Jul 11, 2015)

I'm not really interested in online family tree's to promote credibility and validity. But I can set the record straight and post a few facts as a previous Kocho Bucho of the ryu: The 10th soke first appointed three menkyo kaiden wishing to return to Musashi's original concept. As it takes more than one person to promulgate a ryu. You can't do it on your own.

He sat down at home and with his uchideshi Iwami Toshio and wrote out the three Menkyo on 23 November 2003. One was written for his successor, two more were meigi (honorary/services rendered). What followed was one meigi awardee was in China anyway. The other one Kiyonaga Fumio decide to go off, leave the ryu and start his own dojo. Kiyonaga did call me and ask me to relinquish my obligation and leave to go with him. Naturally I declined. Imai Soke seeing that a menkyo kaiden award was insufficient to promulgate the ryu decided to continue with the Soke system and inaugarated Iwami Toshio Harukatsu as the 11th Soke on 20th December. 

Not long after that Kiyonaga died. His few followers becoming leaderless. 10th Soke was still alive at that time. Naturally if one of your appointees dies? That's the end of it.

During the lifetime of the 8th Soke Aoki Kikuo was also head of the Sekiguchi ryu an iaido/jujitsu ryu with one base in Kumamoto. When Aoki died the Sekiguchi Ryu went its own way. The  followers of the deceased Kiyonaga appealed to  the Sekiguchi ryu and a Shihan called Gosho Motoharu who had previously acted as an assistant to Imai Soke to give them some kind of authenticity. So they became a self appointed Gosho Ha. He also died and yet another person took the reins of this group called Yoshimochi (correct spelling) Kiyoshi hence..... the inaccurate chart that has been posted.

Other people can form a Ha (family). A Soke sometimes suggest and allows a senior member of the ryu starts his own family line. Hence the older Ha. A Ha is not self generated just because you are an old member of a ryu. If that were the case we would have thousands of Ha.

To put it simply you can't become leaderless and just promote yourself up, again to an equal position. On the internet? Maybe.

So the original Seito line recognized by Monbusho, Nihon Kobudo Kyokai, Nippon Budokan still continues and does embu every year along with Yagyu Ryu. Other ryu only get to demonstrate every two years. But as Imai Soke once said to me. "We don't need the associations, they need us".

Iwami Toshio Harukatsu is still the current 11th Soke. But due to illness a Sodenshiki was held on 24th November 2013 appointing Kajiya Takanori as the 12th and current Soke  Kajiya Takanori soke Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu in English

Under normal circumstances I would not bother to take the trouble to put up this information. Our business is for us to know and others to find out and if they are checking online are just guessing anyway. But as only three surviving members of the original 10th generation and the only one that was actually privy to this information. I thought t should be put online for future reference. Also I am the only one who can put it down in English and I no longer require Soke's permission to do so. I sometimes wish he was still alive and none of this silly charts that you see would exist that were put up to be unchallenged. He was also a judge and when he was Soke no one messed around.


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## lklawson (Jul 13, 2015)

Tulisan said:


> I have a friend based in Belgium who is deep into HEMA Historical European Martial Arts: he's also master of the Montante a 2-handed 5'6" blade used for multiple opponents


How could he be a "Master" at Montante?  It died out as a living lineage and everything done now is all reconstruction.

I'd buy, maybe, some level of expertise.  But mastery?  Nah.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Jul 13, 2015)

geezer said:


> Unlike the OP I see plenty in common between the machete and stick fighting arts of the Philipines, the Caribbean and parts of Latin America.


There's only so many ways to effectively use the same blade.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Jul 13, 2015)

Crazy Eyes said:


> I wonder if there are any laws against walking around with a rapier or katanna sheathed at your side as you walk down the street.


Depends on where you're at.  It's legal, more or less, here in the state of Ohio, but you'll probably get a MWG (MW*S*, really) cop call.  

My friends in England, on the other hand, are screwed.  Their "Save Our Swords" campaign failed.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Chris Parker (Jul 21, 2015)

elder999 said:


> Name two.



Er… I can, for the record… that said…

Yeah… trying to tell Hyoho that he needs to read more about Musashi?!? Ha, I haven't laughed like that for a while…


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## elder999 (Jul 21, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> Er… I can, for the record… that said…



Yeah, so can I.

I was being facetious....I know, it's completely out of character for me.....


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