# A police takedown.



## drop bear (Nov 18, 2022)

There are different versions of this. I tend to do a full back take and sort of roll their hips with my arms.There is the knee knock which goes the other way. And there are wrestling rides which play with this idea as well. 

But fighting to that position is super smart. Not just because the takedown is solid. But because it is a lot easier to stay there than it is to get someone off you from there. 

So even if everything goes south. You are not in this, I have tried an armlock, failed and am now standing directly in front of a guy in reach of their face punches. Which is a really bad place to be. 

And it gives you a body part to attack if you are working as a group. Someone already has an arm and is being rag dolled the hip attack is still available.


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## Jared Traveler (Nov 18, 2022)

I was a full time Police officer for about 22 years. I have done the straight arm bar take down effectively on big and small people maybe 25 times or more. So yes, sorry Mike but...it works. It's about timing, not muscling it. I also had a few counters that worked great if the straight arm bar failed.

I also have used the one he shows in the video a couple of times.


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## frank raud (Nov 19, 2022)

" You can't this from watching a Youtube video, you have to practice this".. Heresy, burn this witch.


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## Holmejr (Nov 19, 2022)

An arm bar while blocking, sweeping or kicking the opponents weight bearing leg plus your forward/downward motion is very effective. The arm bar is not a passive technique. You’re not just putting pressure on the opponents elbow, you’re going through it. Pulling up on the wrist down on the elbow.
With that said the back takedown is also excellent if you are positive that it’s only one on one. It takes more practice, timing and commitment to implement. Especially on pavement…lol
In reality all well trained good technique are welcomed and sometimes needed.


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## Jared Traveler (Nov 19, 2022)

If I have to wrestle or use more judo to get them down, than fine, but it's better to use a simple takedown like an armbar if I can. Because first many people have horrible hygiene, and or have blood on them, and or have diseases, that I don't want. Plus a simple arm bar takedown generally gives me better awareness of others around, and is very quick when it works.

If it doesn't work, or it is clear it isn't going to work from the beginning, I switch to judo or wrestling.


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## drop bear (Nov 19, 2022)

I think the arm bar works more because people are afraid they will get shot if it doesn't. Rather than as a mechanical advantage.


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## Holmejr (Nov 19, 2022)

drop bear said:


> I think the arm bar works more because people are afraid they will get shot if it doesn't. Rather than as a mechanical advantage.


Probably


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## drop bear (Nov 19, 2022)

Anyway. For the armbar to work. You have to get the head lower than the arm. Which is hard if the are taller or stronger and just don't bend.

If you can achieve that. Then the arm bar has a chance.

My issue is if the arm pops out or you fail to get it. Their natural response is to turn and face. And then there is a massive risk they will hit you. Which happens a lot faster than people are willing to acknowledge generally.

You could probably do a sequence where you might be able to pull it off. But I haven't seen anyone really explore it.

So something like straight arm bar to two on one russian. Elbow pops up. Under hook and block the head. Reinforced undertook gets the head back down, fight again for that arm bar, mabye take the hammer lock if it presents.

Or if you do loose the whole thing, duck under the opposite arm take the back and fight from there.

Reinforced underhook


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## Jared Traveler (Nov 19, 2022)

drop bear said:


> I think the arm bar works more because people are afraid they will get shot if it doesn't. Rather than as a mechanical advantage.


Nope. It works because you are using it on a certain type of resistance, and on people in a certain state of mind.


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## Jared Traveler (Nov 19, 2022)

My 1-2-3 worked extremely well, and very reliably. I would attempt the straight armlock, if it failed and they straightened up and curled their arm in, I would hit them immediately with a close line version of O-soto Otoshi. Very reliable and quick takedown. I used that take down very often, many times after fishing for or attempting a straight arm lock.

If that failed I would quickly transition to a simple wrestling style snap down. Blending Akido, with Judo, with wrestling in a 1-2-3 combination.

It worked beautifully and came in handy often enough.

Being a Sambo guy, I'm certainly familiar with the 2 on 1 position also. I have used that to do all of those techniques also. Including a belly version of the straight armbar takedown, transitioning to O-soto Otoshi, or what we called a Cuban leg grab. Works great also.


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## drop bear (Nov 19, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Nope. It works because you are using it on a certain type of resistance, and on people in a certain state of mind.



That is exactly what I said.


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## Jared Traveler (Nov 19, 2022)

drop bear said:


> That is exactly what I said.


I must have missed it.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 19, 2022)

drop bear said:


> But fighting to that position is super smart.


I can see at least 2 weak points at that position.

1. His opponent can get him into a reverse head lock (guillotine).
2. Since both of his opponent's hands are free, both of his opponent's hands can reach to his bear hug hands. If his opponent can pull one of his fingers out, his opponent can break his finger.

Bear hug is beginner level skill. But bear hug + leg skill (such as outer hook, or inner hook) is advance level skill. You can use "bear hug + leg skill" to take your opponent down with much less effort.

It's much easier to take your opponent down if you can move one of his feet off the ground first.


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## drop bear (Nov 19, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I can see at least 2 weak points at that position.
> 
> 1. His opponent can get him into a reverse head lock (guillotine).
> 2. Since both of his opponent's hands are free, both of his opponent's hands can reach to his bear hug hands. If his opponent can pull one of his fingers out, his opponent can break his finger.
> ...



Rides kind of work the other way. Where you put weight on the body part. Then collapse its ability to sustain that weight.

The advantage of them is it uses gravity more than strength. So is very physically easy to do. But very physically hard to defend.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 19, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Rides kind of work the other way. Where you put weight on the body part. Then collapse its ability to sustain that weight.
> 
> The advantage of them is it uses gravity more than strength. So is very physically easy to do. But very physically hard to defend.


The "leg skill" is not commonly used in MMA. May be this is the difference between MMA approach and TMA approach.

When you use 1 of your legs to hook 1 of your opponent's legs off the ground, your opponent is standing on 1 leg, but you are also standing on 1 leg. The single leg balance needs extra training. The double legs balance take less training.

May be TMA approach require more training to obtain result. The MMA approach require less training to obtain result.


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## drop bear (Nov 19, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The "leg skill" is not commonly used in MMA. May be this is the difference between MMA approach and TMA approach.
> 
> When you use 1 of your legs to hook 1 of your opponent's legs off the ground, your opponent is standing on 1 leg, but you are also standing on 1 leg. The single leg balance needs extra training. The double legs balance take less training.
> 
> May be TMA approach require more training to obtain result. The MMA approach require less training to obtain result.



Leg reaps are pretty common.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 19, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Leg reaps are pretty common.


The knee down inner hook doesn't require single leg balance. This is the only take down that I don't like to train. I believe to drop knee on the ground like this is not good for the knee joint in the long run.


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## tkdroamer (Nov 20, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The knee down inner hook doesn't require single leg balance. This is the only take down that I don't like to train. I believe to drop knee on the ground like this is not good for the knee joint in the long run.


On a padded floor, I see nothing wrong with practicing that move repeatedly.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 20, 2022)

tkdroamer said:


> On a padded floor, I see nothing wrong with practicing that move repeatedly.


Even on a padded floor, if you put full commitment into your training, it still put too much contact on your knees.


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## drop bear (Nov 20, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I can see at least 2 weak points at that position.
> 
> 1. His opponent can get him into a reverse head lock (guillotine).
> 2. Since both of his opponent's hands are free, both of his opponent's hands can reach to his bear hug hands. If his opponent can pull one of his fingers out, his opponent can break his finger.
> ...


You literally see where the standing version gets reversed in that 2nd video.


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## Hanzou (Dec 5, 2022)

Interesting. I learned that takedown in Relson Gracie fundamentals years ago.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 5, 2022)

My guess is that all of this depends on the skill level of the person you are trying to arrest. And the height of that person.

Demos where your partner knows where to resist is not proof of failure for a technique.  I can make any technique work.  I'll tell you that I'm going to lock your arm. So you resist the lock. I punch you in your face. I have proven that the punch works.

I tell you that I'm going to punch your face 3 times then I kick you instead, then I've shown that the kick works.  If I want to lock the arm then I need to get my opponent to commit defenses away from what I really want.   BJJ does this all the time to make their opponent straighten their arms.

This is where these techniques work.  Somethings you can brute force but most cannot. Take downs in general work when the person is expecting something else. Most things work like that.


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## drop bear (Dec 6, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> My guess is that all of this depends on the skill level of the person you are trying to arrest. And the height of that person.
> 
> Demos where your partner knows where to resist is not proof of failure for a technique.  I can make any technique work.  I'll tell you that I'm going to lock your arm. So you resist the lock. I punch you in your face. I have proven that the punch works.
> 
> ...



The back is an advantageous position though. So you already have that automatic step towards success. Regardless of other factors.


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## O'Malley (Dec 6, 2022)

Cool takedown, wrestling is effective, as often.

Maybe arm locks can be useful if for some reason you can't afford to let go of the guy's arm (e.g. weapons?). And here perhaps I can help. 

I see three fundamental problems with the guy's arm lock in the video. First, he's too much in front of his partner, which makes the technique difficult as he can't use as much bodyweight. It also exposes him to being punched, as you found out. Second, he's entering a strength contest where he tries to force his leverage on the elbow joint against his partner's resistance. Third, nothing prevents his partner from repositioning, making him lose the lock and the advantage.

In my aikido training, I've often run into the same problems as I was learning a standing armbar called ude kime nage. We don't train with full resistance but we're not floppy, and if your partner is even a little bit strong it will never work as shown in the video. To solve the three problems above, you have to 1) enter deeply so you have better leverage and are out of punching range; 2) using your whole body, spiral around the arm to extend it without going force-on-force on the elbow joint; and 3) trap the elbow joint between your and your partner's bodyweights, using gravity to prevent him from moving away from the lock (he would need to move up to get out). Once you have him in the lock, you can throw him.






If you need to bring them face down (e.g. to disarm or handcuff them) ikkyo is also an option. Once again, you don't go force-on-force but you use your bodyweight to spiral around the arm, which allows you to take your partner's balance through their shoulder. Then you bring them down. 






Pro tip: did you see at 1:23 how Saito does not move forward or down, but he moves the arm towards the shoulder? That's because strong people may be able to resist, so you first use the arm like a stick to move them off base and bring their knees to the ground.

These concepts have been around for centuries in traditional Japanese jujutsu and are still being used in competitive sumo.


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## drop bear (Dec 6, 2022)

O'Malley said:


> Cool takedown, wrestling is effective, as often.
> 
> Maybe arm locks can be useful if for some reason you can't afford to let go of the guy's arm (e.g. weapons?). And here perhaps I can help.
> 
> ...



It's a not a great move in general. A lot can go wrong. And it can go wrong either way. So it quite often just doesn't work. And they can turn and face you. Which puts you in a lot of danger.

Or it works too well and you bounce their head of the ground or mess their arm up.

People get taught it because it ticks a bunch of boxes. But don't factor in it doesn't work very well. Which is standard for a lot of police defensive stuff.

This is a good example.





It isn’t that hard to sit someone down using a back take of some sort. W
Especially in hand cuffs.


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## drop bear (Dec 6, 2022)

For arm takedowns the two on one russian has better mechanical advantage. You are gripping with a stronger mechanism and you are using your whole body. And you can bail out to a safer position. 






B7t you can get punched in the face pretty easily.


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## O'Malley (Dec 6, 2022)

Yeah, although I like having that option (and as part of my art I have to train it properly), I can't disagree with you.

Ironically, the standing armlock from your original video was perhaps the first martial arts technique I've ever learnt and, although I have better tools now, it was the first one I've ever used to fend off bullies.



drop bear said:


> It's a not a great move in general. A lot can go wrong. And it can go wrong either way. So it quite often just doesn't work. And they can turn and face you. Which puts you in a lot of danger.
> 
> Or it works too well and you bounce their head of the ground or mess their arm up.
> 
> ...


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## drop bear (Dec 6, 2022)

O'Malley said:


> Yeah, although I like having that option (and as part of my art I have to train it properly), I can't disagree with you.
> 
> Ironically, the standing armlock from your original video was perhaps the first martial arts technique I've ever learnt and, although I have better tools now, it was the first one I've ever used to fend off bullies.



I used the hammer lock a bit. Which is basically the same thing. They need to be very unstructured for it to work.

Otherwise the other problem solve for police when the arm bar fails is to try some sort of whizzer or sweep.






Which of course generally ends very badly.


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## O'Malley (Dec 6, 2022)

Badly as in "uh oh, the sweep didn't work and now I'm the one on one foot"?



drop bear said:


> I used the hammer lock a bit. Which is basically the same thing. They need to be very unstructured for it to work.
> 
> Otherwise the other problem solve for police when the arm bar fails is to try some sort of whizzer or sweep.
> 
> ...


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## drop bear (Dec 6, 2022)

O'Malley said:


> Badly as in "uh oh, the sweep didn't work and now I'm the one on one foot"?



Badly as in you start tearing knees or face planting the guy.


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## Jared Traveler (Dec 6, 2022)

I think drop bear, you have to consider the benefits of attempting the straight arm bar takedown. Far better situational awareness, super quick when it works (quicker than other options), good weapons security, options to prevent being punched, plenty of follow up options if it doesn't work.

You have to recognize that it works efficiently all of the time, regardless if it should or shouldn't. 

Also and this is a big, big deal, a lot of people that need controlled you don't want to get close to. Why? Blood, spit, biting. You just don't want to wrap up with someone if you can help it.


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## Jared Traveler (Dec 7, 2022)

I don't disagree with the majority of your points drop bear. And I don't really like the straight arm bar on paper either. But there are a lot of hidden benefits and the fact that I don't like it much myself, I found myself using it effectively over and over again.


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## drop bear (Dec 7, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> I don't disagree with the majority of your points drop bear. And I don't really like the straight arm bar on paper either. But there are a lot of hidden benefits and the fact that I don't like it much myself, I found myself using it effectively over and over again.



Yeah. It just doesn't really work if someone is fighting back. Which is an issue.

I saw police use it effectively. But people are afraid that if it doesn't work they will get shot maced or tazed. So suprise. A whole bunch of stuff works in that scenario.

Remove that threat and the success rate plummets dramatically.


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## Jared Traveler (Dec 7, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Yeah. It just doesn't really work if someone is fighting back. Which is an issue.
> 
> I saw police use it effectively. But people are afraid that if it doesn't work they will get shot maced or tazed. So suprise. A whole bunch of stuff works in that scenario.
> 
> Remove that threat and the success rate plummets dramatically.


That's the whole point, it is effective against a certain (common) level of resistance. It works great in context, and not so we'll out of context. Like most everything.


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## drop bear (Dec 7, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> That's the whole point, it is effective against a certain (common) level of resistance. It works great in context, and not so we'll out of context. Like most everything.


Not like most everything.

High percentage takedowns work in that specific context. But the also work in other contexts. 

That is the appeal of high percentage takedowns.


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## Jared Traveler (Dec 7, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Not like most everything.
> 
> High percentage takedowns work in that specific context. But the also work in other contexts.
> 
> That is the appeal of high percentage takedowns.


There are nuances you are not understanding. Some of which I highlighted. I want to be against the straight arm bar also, but I have used it far to many times to great effect. And in hindsight would choose it again in many circumstances.


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## wab25 (Dec 7, 2022)

Can someone explain why this is an either or thing? Either I can learn and use the arm bar or I can learn the takedown... 

Why not learn both? Both have been successfully used. The situation will be different each time, so use the tool needed for that situation.

I personally don't like the format of the video in the OP. Guy wants to show his takedown and how it works for police work... great, lets see it. But he starts off by doing a bad version of a different technique, to prove that it does not work. Well, of course it does not work, when you do it wrong... and when the point is to show that it doesn't work.... Just show the technique that you want to show.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 7, 2022)

wab25 said:


> Can someone explain why this is an either or thing? Either I can learn and use the arm bar or I can learn the takedown...
> 
> Why not learn both? Both have been successfully used. The situation will be different each time, so use the tool needed for that situation.


I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 takedowns once. I fear the man who has practiced 1 takedown 10,000 times. 

It's iffy if I'll fear you if you spent any of those times practicing options to set it up and not the takedown in a vacuum. Might mean you're not dedicated enough.


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## drop bear (Dec 7, 2022)

wab25 said:


> Can someone explain why this is an either or thing? Either I can learn and use the arm bar or I can learn the takedown...
> 
> Why not learn both? Both have been successfully used. The situation will be different each time, so use the tool needed for that situation.
> 
> I personally don't like the format of the video in the OP. Guy wants to show his takedown and how it works for police work... great, lets see it. But he starts off by doing a bad version of a different technique, to prove that it does not work. Well, of course it does not work, when you do it wrong... and when the point is to show that it doesn't work.... Just show the technique that you want to show.



I subscribe to the importance of being conservative in a street fight where if you mess up it can go very badly. So I don't like techniques that only kind of work. And failing means you are generally in a worse off position.

The arm bar is taught because it is easily taught. Not because it really works very well. Which is honestly a bit of a crapway to prepare people to defend against violence.

The other issue is that to problem solve a takedown that doesn't work. The answer is to escalate. So if the arm bar doesn't work. The guy is considered a super man and you proceed to kick his head in.

Which is also easy to teach and also a bit crap.

And basically you winf up with this.


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## wab25 (Dec 7, 2022)

drop bear said:


> I subscribe to the importance of being conservative in a street fight where if you mess up it can go very badly. So I don't like techniques that only kind of work. And failing means you are generally in a worse off position.
> 
> The arm bar is taught because it is easily taught. Not because it really works very well. Which is honestly a bit of a crapway to prepare people to defend against violence


So we discount the many examples of law enforcement successfully using the arm bar as anecdotal....? Why are the anecdotal examples of this takedown better than the ones for the arm bar?

If the arm bar is done correctly, it puts you behind the guy, with his head down.... If you go for this the right way, if the guy is able to pull out of it, you can easily transition into this takedown or another similar type takedown. You would only be in a bad position, if you freeze in place when things go sideways... but thats true for any technique.


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## drop bear (Dec 7, 2022)

wab25 said:


> So we discount the many examples of law enforcement successfully using the arm bar as anecdotal....? Why are the anecdotal examples of this takedown better than the ones for the arm bar?
> 
> If the arm bar is done correctly, it puts you behind the guy, with his head down.... If you go for this the right way, if the guy is able to pull out of it, you can easily transition into this takedown or another similar type takedown. You would only be in a bad position, if you freeze in place when things go sideways... but thats true for any technique.



The point of anecdotal evidence is precisely that they can be dismissed by other anecdotal evidence. And that is why it is so unreliable.

If he pulls out he is facing you. Which is bad from a you have to fight the guy to the ground perspective.


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## wab25 (Dec 7, 2022)

drop bear said:


> The point of anecdotal evidence is precisely that they can be dismissed by other anecdotal evidence. And that is why it is so unreliable.
> 
> If he pulls out he is facing you. Which is bad from a you have to fight the guy to the ground perspective.


I agree... if you do the technique wrong, and the guy pulls out, you are in danger. In the shown take down, if you miss tapping the guys elbow up, you run face first into it. If you don't get your head firmly against his back as you wrap his waist, he throws an elbow to your head, with your hands down. If you do either technique wrong, you put yourself in danger.


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## Jared Traveler (Dec 7, 2022)

wab25 said:


> Can someone explain why this is an either or thing? Either I can learn and use the arm bar or I can learn the takedown...
> 
> Why not learn both? Both have been successfully used. The situation will be different each time, so use the tool needed for that situation.
> 
> I personally don't like the format of the video in the OP. Guy wants to show his takedown and how it works for police work... great, lets see it. But he starts off by doing a bad version of a different technique, to prove that it does not work. Well, of course it does not work, when you do it wrong... and when the point is to show that it doesn't work.... Just show the technique that you want to show.


That's exactly right.


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## Jared Traveler (Dec 7, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Yeah. It just doesn't really work if someone is fighting back. Which is an issue.
> 
> I saw police use it effectively. But people are afraid that if it doesn't work they will get shot maced or tazed. So suprise. A whole bunch of stuff works in that scenario.
> 
> Remove that threat and the success rate plummets dramatically.


There some truth in what you are saying, but it's only a small part of the picture. People don't just not commit a lethal force assault because they are afraid of being shot or tased. There are many levels of resistance and many reasons people resist. 

Not everyone is interested in hurting an officer, but that doesn't mean they will not resist at some level. When they will not follow verbal commands, there needs to be ways to place these people in handcuffs. Ways that are safe for the officer and the suspect. The straight armbar takedown is one process of doing that, that has a huge success rate. 

A success rate for keeping the officer and the suspect safe most of the time. If safety was the officers highest priority, he would just use a drawn handgun and distance to gain all compliance. But it doesn't work that way.


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## Holmejr (Dec 8, 2022)

When a cop says that a particular technique has works for them on the street many times. What am I going to say? Oh no it didn’t? Seems silly. 

Anyway, I think adaptability is key here. When a techniques works as planned, it’s a beautiful thing and when it doesn’t we adapt. This is why we practice as close to real life as possible and with folks that don’t let you have it easily. We move from technique to counter to technique to counter. It almost infinitely variable. Everyone has their favorites and what they’re most fluid with. 

In our style we think, because of weapon considerations, limb/joint destruction. An armbar is forceful enough to break the arm before hitting the ground. Of course there are many variations to the arm bar. Maybe the person resists and you move to step through clothesline or an under hook drag or kimura to take down or a step through figure four with elbow to face. Really, it’s just a whatever works type of thing. Concerning videos, most videos show very simplified/abbreviated versions of a technique. Grain of salt stuff for sure.


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## drop bear (Dec 8, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> There some truth in what you are saying, but it's only a small part of the picture. People don't just not commit a lethal force assault because they are afraid of being shot or tased. There are many levels of resistance and many reasons people resist.
> 
> Not everyone is interested in hurting an officer, but that doesn't mean they will not resist at some level. When they will not follow verbal commands, there needs to be ways to place these people in handcuffs. Ways that are safe for the officer and the suspect. The straight armbar takedown is one process of doing that, that has a huge success rate.
> 
> A success rate for keeping the officer and the suspect safe most of the time. If safety was the officers highest priority, he would just use a drawn handgun and distance to gain all compliance. But it doesn't work that way.


Or not a huge success rate according to cops.






Here they are trying to fix that issue with a Russian two on one.

I don't think we would find a training instance where the arm bar works. It is generally taught. Tried and then abandoned for hitting.


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## Holmejr (Dec 8, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Or not a huge success rate according to cops.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Arm wrap takedown. In Eskrido we call that winding. We practice it often with knife wielding students. Nice.


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## Jared Traveler (Dec 8, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Or not a huge success rate according to cops.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


As a Sambo guy, I love the two on one variations, but only for more experienced grapplers. Because it puts your weapon that much closer to a suspect. If you aren't great a grappling, it's better to have a failed armbar attempt and maintain some distance, rather than getting tangled up and having your weapon grabbed.

Incidentally I have never hand anyone injured even slightly with a straight armbar takedown, and I have done them pretty dynamically.


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## Jared Traveler (Dec 8, 2022)

Drop bear, great video to work with for discussion:





I think we could discect this and learn a few things, maybe clear a few things up. Lots of branches to this, including the fact that the video demonstrates the realistic grappling ability cadets get to in a typical academy setting. It's not a high degree of skill at all. I know because I taught them. You just don't get very many training hours with a cadet. Most of them start with zero experience fighting or wrestling.

Watching the video it was clear before hands were put on the suspect that the straight arm bar wasn't going to work. Any experienced grappler could see that, of course cadets generally aren't experienced grapplers. So it was attempted anyways. 

The straight armbar works best when the officer archives the "escort position" prior to resistance. This didn't happen in the video. So it was a bad technique to try in this case. This is why all conflict is problem solving. The armbar is not THE SOLUTION, far from it!!! Like everything it is A WAY of putting someone into cuffs that doesn't comply verbally.

Other options include the grappling techniques you have suggested. Those certainly have their place, and would have been AN OPTION in this case, but not THE WAY to do it. The officer might have chose to use tools like the TASER or spray, if they weren't confident in essentially wrestling with a suspect. Either because of the officers low skill level at wrestling, or maybe the fact they were alone and didn't have a partner.

Wrestling with a suspect with a gun on your hip, is a highly dangerous activity. I have done it multiple, multiple times. It takes a very different mindset, focus, awareness and skill than you use in the gym. It is not something to be entered into lightly as an inexperienced officer or novice grappler. When you have more officers present, you can take higher risks by wrestling. Because if you begin to be dominated by a better wrestler, you have some or multiple people to help you.

But casually going for a takedown and closing with a suspect is highly dangerous, and the techniques presented by Iron Mike work(I have used them) but they are not the missing link to keeping suspects and officers safe. In fact it could easily create a situation where the suspect is shot and killed, when he otherwise would not have been.


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## drop bear (Dec 9, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Drop bear, great video to work with for discussion:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The escort position is sort of kind of stupid. Yes you can just walk over and take it if someone let's you. But if that is the main focus of your escort position entry. Then you are not teaching anything. Which is essentially DT 101. 

Which from my experience of DT tended to be cause a distraction. Sneak up behind the guy and arm bar. Which never worked. Because for some reason the bad guy was always aware of you. 

Basically there is almost always a better option than that armbar. 

The gun issue is a series of cop outs. It frames the argument like this.

Attempt crappy arm bar to keep gun safe. Fail because crappy arm bar is crappy. Escalate to belting the guy because apparently all peaceful options have been tried. If that fails Escalate to tools. Because that suspect that can withstand the all powerful arm bar or gooseneck must have super human powers or something. Pull gun out. 

Now I challenge you to find a situation where a cop who was winning a fight has had his gun grabbed. Because from what I have seen the biggest risk is when the guy is loosing. 

Which will happen if you are relying on that arm bar because they spin out of it and face you.


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## Jared Traveler (Dec 9, 2022)

drop bear said:


> The escort position is sort of kind of stupid. Yes you can just walk over and take it if someone let's you. But if that is the main focus of your escort position entry. Then you are not teaching anything. Which is essentially DT 101.
> 
> Which from my experience of DT tended to be cause a distraction. Sneak up behind the guy and arm bar. Which never worked. Because for some reason the bad guy was always aware of you.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry, but you don't understand law enforcements job. The escort position isn't stupid, and at no point are you trying to sneak up on anyone. You are not trying to sneak up and arm bar anyone. Again, you lack an understanding on how and when this is used.

I understand why in your mind this is useless and doesn't work. That's because you don't understand it's utility in context of the job.

Challenge accepted: I have had an attempt on my weapon when I was dominating and mounted on a suspect. You don't understand grappling in the context of law enforcement.


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## drop bear (Dec 9, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> I'm sorry, but you don't understand law enforcements job. The escort position isn't stupid, and at no point are you trying to sneak up on anyone. You are not trying to sneak up and arm bar anyone. Again, you lack an understanding on how and when this is used.
> 
> I understand why in your mind this is useless and doesn't work. That's because you don't understand it's utility in context of the job.
> 
> Challenge accepted: I have had an attempt on my weapon when I was dominating and mounted on a suspect. You don't understand grappling in the context of law enforcement.



This is the context of the job.






Crappy arm bar fails turns in to a mess. Dogpile bang the guys head in to the deck until he gives up. 

Now this is literally a copy of the training.


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## drop bear (Dec 9, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Challenge accepted: I have had an attempt on my weapon when I was dominating and mounted on a suspect. You don't understand grappling in the context of law enforcement.



So you were in Mount and they tried to pull your gun out. Because I would be suprised if that was even possible.


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## Jared Traveler (Dec 9, 2022)

drop bear said:


> This is the context of the job.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What's your point? If you want to argue that cops need better training on what to do if the straight armbar fails, I can agree with that. Which in fact I did a great job at doing when I was teaching cops. If you want to find videos that demonstrate your average cop isn't a skilled grappler, those videos exist all over the net. Because they generally are not and will not be expert grapplers.


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## Jared Traveler (Dec 9, 2022)

drop bear said:


> So you were in Mount and they tried to pull your gun out. Because I would be suprised if that was even possible.


That's exactly what happened. And actually the level 3 retention holsters I was wearing makes a disarm from that angle a very realistic possibility.

In fact, come to think of it, I had someone disarm me while I was mounted on them in training. It was a blue plastic gun. I had to wrestle to get it back once it was in his hands.


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## drop bear (Dec 9, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> What's your point? If you want to argue that cops need better training on what to do if the straight armbar fails, I can agree with that. Which in fact I did a great job at doing when I was teaching cops. If you want to find videos that demonstrate your average cop isn't a skilled grappler, those videos exist all over the net. Because they generally are not and will not be expert grapplers.



The arm bar takedown is a fundamental flaw of police training. But it is easy to teach and looks good in demoes. And if instructors argue that it works enough times. Mabye enough people will believe them. Which saves them doing any real training on the subject. 

Police are not expert grapplers because of this fundamental flaw of police training. What it does is it forces police to punch people in the head because that arm bar probably won't work. That arm bar is a joke. Nobody respects it. Icey Mike's take on that arm bar is an accurate one. 

When police do training from someone who vaguely knows how to grapple they become safer and better at their job. And we can see this with the adopt a cop program. This is when we remove people from police context training and put them in training that just works better.

If you are dealing with a person who can't really grapple and you have a limited time to spend trying to get them to grapple because they actually might have to do it. You don't waste your time on arm bar takedowns. 

You spend your time on high percentage moves that are as safe as you can mechanically get. 

Eg. Back takes. 

Of course we are not even talking about some hinky bjj stuff here where we expect cops to be pulling off double leg over arm bars.(which they do. And there is another argument for that)

Back takes keep you on your feet. Keeps your belt kit safe. Keeps you safe from striking, lets you use the guy as a shield if their friends roll up and let's you let go and run away if you really have to. It is the definition of context if you understand how the dynamics of getting a belligerent person from a position that is uncontrolled to controlled in an uncertain street environment. 

Arm bar takedowns on the other hand are not good in context. And they are not very reliable.


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## Jared Traveler (Dec 9, 2022)

drop bear said:


> So you were in Mount and they tried to pull your gun out. Because I would be suprised if that was even possible.


In fact, you got me remembering now. 20 years ago when I was acting as the "bad guy" during police defensive tactics training, before I was an instructor, I sat on the ground and made the cadets try to take me into custody.

22 cadets came out two at a time for the call. I laid on bottom and while they were both on top of me, knee striking me and trying to turn me over into a handcuffing position, I disarmed at least half of them. Sometimes stripping both officers of their weapon and throwing them away, before they realized they were gone and or communicated it to their partner.

Taking a weapon in a grappling situation is not difficult, especially if you understand how the holster works. I probably disarmed 15 of the cadets that night.


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## drop bear (Dec 9, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> That's exactly what happened. And actually the level 3 retention holsters I was wearing makes a disarm from that angle a very realistic possibility.
> 
> In fact, come to think of it, I had someone disarm me while I was mounted on them in training. It was a blue plastic gun. I had to wrestle to get it back once it was in his hands.





Jared Traveler said:


> In fact, you got me remembering now. 20 years ago when I was acting as the "bad guy" during police defensive tactics training, before I was an instructor, I sat on the ground and made the cadets try to take me into custody.
> 
> 22 cadets came out two at a time for the call. I laid on bottom and while they were both on top of me, knee striking me and trying to turn me over into a handcuffing position, I disarmed at least half of them. Sometimes stripping both officers of their weapon and throwing them away, before they realized they were gone and or communicated it to their partner.
> 
> Taking a weapon in a grappling situation is not difficult, especially if you understand how the holster works. I probably disarmed 15 of the cadets that night.



And the whole room clapped?


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## Jared Traveler (Dec 9, 2022)

drop bear said:


> And the whole room clapped?


You understand I brought that up because you were contemplating if this was a realistic possibility?


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## Jared Traveler (Dec 9, 2022)

drop bear said:


> The arm bar takedown is a fundamental flaw of police training. But it is easy to teach and looks good in demoes. And if instructors argue that it works enough times. Mabye enough people will believe them. Which saves them doing any real training on the subject.
> 
> Police are not expert grapplers because of this fundamental flaw of police training. What it does is it forces police to punch people in the head because that arm bar probably won't work. That arm bar is a joke. Nobody respects it. Icey Mike's take on that arm bar is an accurate one.
> 
> ...


I understand the value of getting behind people, it has literally saved my life. Ultimately it's okay if you think the straight armbar has no value. There was a time when I would have agreed with you. I also think it's good to question things like this. It's healthy, assuming the right people get to decide yes or no on these matters. Many aspects of your think on this is accurate. I can't however not understand it's value after using it to great effect, without injuring anyone so many times.


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## Hanzou (Dec 19, 2022)

Thoughts on the standing Kimura?


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## Holmejr (Dec 19, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> Thoughts on the standing Kimura?


We do this. But preface it with a few softening up blows and maybe a knee 😉. Some folks look at these videos done in slow motion and with compliant training partners and think it gives the perpetrator to much time or positioning to counter, but this and other locks, takedowns, etc. are violent acts that have to be executed quickly almost without thought. It all has a place in one’s arsenal.


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## drop bear (Dec 19, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> Thoughts on the standing Kimura?



Not a fan. Seems a bit unsecured. Not the lock but everything else. The idea is people are going to just randomly thrash. Not move in the right direction to relieve the lock. 

So you get all these weird things happen.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 19, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> Thoughts on the standing Kimura?


If I'm his partner, my right hand will pull his forehead back (eyebrow wipping). Before he can apply pressure on my left arm, he won't be able to stop me from using my right hand to reach to his forehead.

People always said that eye gouging is a bad technique. But if you allow your opponent's hand to reach to your eyes, that's your fault.





Your neck muscle is not very strong to against the arm muscle.


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## Holmejr (Dec 19, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Not a fan. Seems a bit unsecured. Not the lock but everything else. The idea is people are going to just randomly thrash. Not move in the right direction to relieve the lock.
> 
> So you get all these weird things happen





Kung Fu Wang said:


> If I'm his partner, my right hand will pull his forehead back (eyebrow wipping). Before he can apply pressure on my left arm, he won't be able to stop me from using my right hand to reach to his forehead.
> 
> People always said that eye gouging is a bad technique. But if you allow your opponent's hand to reach to your eyes, that's your fault.
> 
> ...


How about it your opponent is hurting from a few good blows and bent over? That is the trouble with demo videos. You really have to be imaginative enough to see the technique in different situations.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 19, 2022)

Holmejr said:


> How about it your opponent is hurting from a few good blows and bent over? That is the trouble with demo videos. You really have to be imaginative enough to see the technique in different situations.


Of course if you apply this technique against a person that you have almost knocked him out, he may not have any ability to counter you. But that's not the normal situation.

When I look at a video technique, I always look at the opponent's free arm/arms. The more that one has controlled over his opponent's arm/arms, the better that his technique is.


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## Holmejr (Dec 19, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Of course if you apply this technique against a person that you have almost knocked him out, he may not have any ability to counter you. But that's not the normal situation.
> 
> When I look at a video technique, I always look at the opponent's free arm/arms. The more that one has controlled over his opponent's arm/arms, the better that his technique is.


I agree, best to isolate or render useless all other weapons. The point is that there is a time and place for virtually every technique. We presuppose there is a weapon in play, hence the softening up. Similar to the straight arm bar take down. It might or might not be the proper technique at that moment, but that is why we have an arsenal to flow with. Again, IMO it all works better with a bit of softening up….usually kinda sorta.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 19, 2022)

Holmejr said:


> Similar to the straight arm bar take down.


This elbow lock take down is much safter. You are on your opponent's side door. His leading right arm can jam his own back left arm. You use "front cut" to lift his leading foot off the ground, and take him down.

IMO, a good joint lock should combine with a good throw at the same time.


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## Holmejr (Dec 19, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This elbow lock take down is much safter. You are on your opponent's side door. His leading right arm can jam his own back left arm. You use "front cut" to lift his leading foot off the ground, and take him down.
> 
> IMO, a good joint lock should combine with a good throw at the same time.


Yes we use that also. Except the hand has a knife in it LOL. Works great after breaking opponents elbow, elbow in ribs or face and  knee to ribs. Hinders them from countering…maybe…it all good stuff and all has its moment.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 19, 2022)

Holmejr said:


> Yes we use that also. Except the hand has a knife in it LOL. Works great after breaking opponents elbow, elbow in ribs or face and  knee to ribs. Hinders them from countering…maybe…it all good stuff and all has its moment.


Agree! This technique was originally used to deal with a knife attack.






In the other clip, he uses arm bar to set it up instead. You use arm bar to straight your opponent's arm. When your opponent resists and refuses his arm to be straight, you borrow his resistance force, and help him to bend his arm more than he wants to.

Again, the beauty of this technique is when you use arm bar on your opponent's right arm, his left arm cannot reach you.


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## Jared Traveler (Dec 19, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> Thoughts on the standing Kimura?


I don't like it from a standing position. I it exposes your back way too much when attempting it. From the ground this isn't a huge issues, but standing it is. It's a no for me.


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## drop bear (Dec 19, 2022)

Holmejr said:


> How about it your opponent is hurting from a few good blows and bent over? That is the trouble with demo videos. You really have to be imaginative enough to see the technique in different situations.



If I want to beat a guy up. There are easier ways to do that than a kimoura lock.


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## drop bear (Dec 19, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> Thoughts on the standing Kimura?



In fact the roll sweep thing would probably be the better option.






As much as that is something that could go hilariously wrong.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 19, 2022)

drop bear said:


> If I want to beat a guy up. There are easier ways to do that than a kimoura lock.


Old saying said, "A bad punch is still better than a good lock." If your body is uniformed, it's very difficult to apply lock on you. The Aikido "unbendable arm" is a simple example. As long as you can image that water flow from your shoulder to your hand, your arm can be difficult to bend.


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## Jared Traveler (Dec 19, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Old saying said, "A bad punch is still better than a good lock." If your body is uniformed, it's very difficult to apply lock on you. The Aikido "unbendable arm" is a simple example. As long as you can image that water flow from your shoulder to your hand, your arm can be difficult to bend.


This is why ideally locks are done in a position that the suspect or attacker wants to move his arm.


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## Holmejr (Dec 19, 2022)

drop bear said:


> If I want to beat a guy up. There are easier ways to do that than a kimoura lock.


Yes, no doubt…


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## Buka (Dec 20, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> Thoughts on the standing Kimura?


About the same thoughts I have about driving fast and not wearing a seat belt. 

I mean, you could get away with it at times, but, you know.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 20, 2022)

Buka said:


> driving fast and not wearing a seat belt.


A should not just move in and totally ignores B's free left arm. In other words, A's entering strategy has some flaws.






A perfect "entering starategy" will require that you can control both of your opponent's arms and also his leading leg when you enter. It's not an easy task.

In the following clip, when the old man enter, he:

- underhooks his opponent's right arm.
- arm wraps his opponent's left arm.
- shin bites on his opponent's right leg.

It's a perfect "entering strategy".






I call this kind of entering strategy as "octopus" strategy.


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## Holmejr (Dec 20, 2022)

Buka said:


> About the same thoughts I have about driving fast and not wearing a seat belt.
> 
> I mean, you could get away with it at times, but, you know.


You mean when it presents itself properly and of course after a bit of pummeling LOL.


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## Holmejr (Dec 20, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> A should not just move in and totally ignores B's free left arm. In other words, A's entering strategy has some flaws.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, we do that underhook throw. After a bit of pummeling.


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