# Old School and the Grappler Just a Funny Thought



## Nicholas82555 (May 2, 2010)

I believe alot of the competitors nowadays are grapplers or grappler orientated to end a match.

We let's just say for discussion sake and the way the old masters trained (ie Mas Oyama) and possible the death of "the shoot".


Grappler when given the opportunity will shoot in under their opponent for a takedown. Someone with the ability to kill a bull, smashing a stack of 30 roofing tiles all of sudden catches you on the crown of your head trying to "shoot" in))

But we don't see many train to those extremities today or with that purpose. Just a funny thought.


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## Revenant777 (May 2, 2010)

Keep in mind that breaking demonstrations are generally done in a controlled environment where you have time to focus all of your force on an unmoving target.  Similarly, striking power would be significantly reduced by having a grappler upsetting your balance.  Therefore, in my opinion a contest of an old school karate master versus a grappler would come down to timing.  If the grappler could upset the karate master's balance before he got hit then the master probably could not develop enough striking force to prevent the takedown.  On the other hand if the karate master struck the grappler before he completed the shoot, he would probably be able to stop it.  MMA seems to play out similarly except replacing karate technique with Muay Thai/wrestling technique.  If the fighter can throw a knee to the grappler's face or spraw before his balance is upset, he can probably prevent the takedown.


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## pmosiun1 (May 2, 2010)

I agree, it comes down to timing.


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## twendkata71 (May 2, 2010)

It does come down to timing. On the other hand many of the old masters alsot trained in Grappling arts(Judo,Jujitsu). So, I would think that they would know how to handle that sort of situation. As for the Okinawan masters, they too learned grappling in their arts. Many of the Okinawans learned a type of Sumo as well.  In any fight situation it comes down to timing.


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## MJS (May 2, 2010)

IIRC, there've been some MMA matches in which the shooter was caught was some knees to the head/face.  I agree with the others that mentioned timing as an important factor.


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## Nicholas82555 (May 2, 2010)

So since we've established "timing" is the key would it be safe to say Bruce Lee or someone with the same speed or greater is susceptible to counter based on "timing". 

Thanks to all for you input because a vast majority of people speed is a killer and granted an excellent attribute to have......neglect someone who is not as quick but adept at timing to be a non factor.

Boxing would be an excellent analogy. You an exceptionally quick fighter but your opponent is slightly slower be possesses the ability to counter or intercepting due to an adept awareness of timing.


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## MJS (May 2, 2010)

Nicholas82555 said:


> So since we've established "timing" is the key would it be safe to say Bruce Lee or someone with the same speed or greater is susceptible to counter based on "timing".
> 
> Thanks to all for you input because a vast majority of people speed is a killer and granted an excellent attribute to have......neglect someone who is not as quick but adept at timing to be a non factor.
> 
> Boxing would be an excellent analogy. You an exceptionally quick fighter but your opponent is slightly slower be possesses the ability to counter or intercepting due to an adept awareness of timing.


 
My apologies in advance as I should've stated what I'm about to say, in my first reply.  IMHO, I feel that one of the main things that will aid in a defense of something, is a good understanding of what it is exactly, that you're trying to defend.  I'm sure we've all seen, either on a forum, or in person, someone giving an explaination of how they would defend against something, but their experience on the subject isn't the greatest.  

If someone has never stepped foot on a mat with someone who grapples, then IMO, any defense that they may claim will work against a mount attack, is based on their assumption only.  This is why I personally like to crosstrain.  Now, I'm not claiming that I'm some expert grappler, but I like to test my Kenpo takedown defenses against someone who grapples.  If I can make it work on someone who knows how to shoot properly, then I just got that much better.   I also know that a) I'll stand a better chance against the untrained person and b) I will have a much better understanding of how a grappler operates.


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## Eubrontes (May 9, 2010)

Most of the masters who trained/train to stop an opponent with a strike trained their fists/knuckles for this purpose.  A glove over these areas takes away the stopping power to a very large extent.  Which is why I really do feel that modern mixed martial arts competitions do not allow a striking expert to do what he does best.   I love watching those competitions, but truly they will never show what a well trained traditional martial artist can do - which, I suspect, is one of the many reasons why you seldom see a traditional karate-ka step into those events.


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## repz (May 9, 2010)

Mas Oyama has a black belt in judo. Like someone mentioned, a lot of people were taking many arts. Many believe bruce lee was the one to break lines of "style", but thats not true, Bruce Lee was an inch in a mile.

Anything thats happened in the last 20 years is just a repeat of a less media influenced (tv and web) judo dominance from the 1900s. They started it all, they were the ones challengeing every one, they brought it to brazil, all at a time where they were more ground focused then they are now.


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## Martin h (May 17, 2010)

repz said:


> Mas Oyama has a black belt in judo. Like someone mentioned, a lot of people were taking many arts.



3rd Dan in Judo and he also recieved a menkyo Kaiden  (old school master licence) in Daitoryu Aikibujutsu under Yoshida Kotaro. He also trained boxing a short while, and later trained with the founder of Taikiken (Japanese branch of Yi quan Chuanfa), Kenichi Sawaii, and even let him stay in and teach out of the kyokushin headquarter dojo for a while.

Crosstraining is not new.
The old karate masters are well known for having crosstrained too -although in their case they didnt have as much to chose from, and settled for traveling to china to train chuanfa -and visiting every other okinawan master that they could find.
Even Funakoshi sent several students (including his son) to masters of other karate styles in order to learn.

The idea of karate "style purism" is a new thing.

and to quote Kenwa Mabuni: "The karate that has been introduced to Tokyo is actually a single part of a larger whole. The fact that those who have learned karate in Tokyo think that it consists only of hand strikes and kicks, and that throws and joint locks are only a part of jujutsu or judo can only be attributed to their lack of awareness on this art. "


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