# Why do people bash Aikido?



## Buddha1 (Jun 9, 2006)

Hey there,

 I recently started Aikido and train twice a week.

 I have also dabbled in Ninjutsu and Karate and in the dojos I have been in, people have had alot of respect for Aikido.

 But on the internet people are different - they 'bash' aikido and go on about how other martial arts are so much better.

 Could anyone outline for me some reasons why people do this?


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## Hand Sword (Jun 9, 2006)

It goes on and has gone on for ever, seemingly. Don't take it personal, train and be happy.


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## pstarr (Jun 9, 2006)

Those bashes are generally made by people who have never studied real aikido.  Ignore them.  Concentrate on your training.


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## Calm Intention (Jun 9, 2006)

Buddha1 said:
			
		

> Hey there,
> 
> I recently started Aikido and train twice a week.
> 
> ...


 
Other than the Shaolin philosophy and discipline,  Aikido ranks(as Shaolin), above all the other arts.  The others don't understand,  and there is a jealousy too.
Aikido spirit takes much longer to 'know' than the others,  and it is its spirit, that the perfection of its techniques derives its essence.

Aikido doesn't cater to the wild spirit,, only those who really have it together can remain within its culture.  I say 'culture',  because that is how different it really is from the others.


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## Buddha1 (Jun 9, 2006)

Thanks guys.

Also, what can you tell me about Kyu Shin Do? Is this a branch of Aikido? If so, how is it different from other branches?


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## MartialIntent (Jun 9, 2006)

Buddha1 said:
			
		

> Hey there,
> 
> I recently started Aikido and train twice a week.
> 
> ...


Buddha1, you've made some good observations there! Yes if you've encountered that general respect for Aikido I think it arises simply because [most] Aikidoka have a mutual respect for their fellow artists from other disciplines and of course the techniques themselves have a certain _uniqueness_ or _je ne sais quoi_ I suppose that's not found in many others. 

Generally [though my style is an exception] there is no competition in Aikido which was one of the central tenets put arising fundamentally out of Ueshiba's philosophy which was poured into what became Aikido - and it was this not seeing eye-to-eye between O'Sensei and Kenji Tomiki which gave rise to Shodokan - but I think this non-competitiveness gives Aikido a slightly different perspective on itself and on other arts but certainly not in a snobbish way, rather in a manner that allows Aikidoka to step back a little and get the wider view. Of course some Aikidoka seem to step back so far that all they can see is a comparison of techniques between one art and the other and fall into the endless trap of rebutting every positive argument put forward on their own art. I mean, this happens with all arts [I'm thinking Ninjutsu] but I'd think it happens to a great extent within Aikido. It's a very petty and self-destructive thing and my advice if you hear it is to ignore it. You know what you can do and you know how good your art is so you do what you can to step back from it and worry less about what anyone else might think. Easy in theory. Difficult in practice!! But something to aspire to definitely. And of course without this inherent bickering and argumentativeness many of the forums would be fairly empty places.

Also there are many folk who will argue that Aikido is no good for "the street" or this or that because there are no flamboyant strikes, obvious grappling or "kill" mentalities, well I'd say that if you keep up your training you'll realise soon enough that you can do damage if you need to. But again that's another bone of contention for some folk when it comes to deriding Aikido and it's the central Aiki principle of the generation and utilization of harmonious energy both on and off the mats. There are plenty who either just don't get it, who can't be assed thinking about it or who simply just wanna use their art to kick the cr*p out of random folk they meet, and in this case Aikido certainly isn't the appropriate forum for expression of those mentalities.

Oh and I just noticed your Kyu Shindo question - this was an art designed by Kenshiro Abbe who like most of the greats is no longer with us. He was a student of O'Sensei and brought a lot of the Aikido philosophy and technique with him to Kyu Shindo. If you get a chance to see it or train in it you'll see how similar to Aikido it is - many branches to the same tree I suppose!!

Hope this is of some help to you. I just wanna wish you good luck and continued success with your training. And don't worry if things maybe seem a little slow for you at this stage or techniques don't quite *feel* right or you're not sure which ukemi you're *supposed* to use because all this'll click - and often just when it feels as if you're making no gains something will just instantly "connect" and off you go. Keep it up, you're doing well.

Respects!


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## samurai69 (Jun 9, 2006)

Lack of understanding............

No art should be knocked unless you have at least tried it


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## Nomad (Jun 9, 2006)

Dislike of Steven Segal:mp5: .  Unfortunately,  he is one of the best known aikidoka to the average person, and thus acts as its' ambassador.  *sigh*


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## tshadowchaser (Jun 9, 2006)

Most people have no idea of what can really happen to a person if the techniques of Aikido are used in a hard fashion. Most people only se someone moving smoothly and people flying through the air and fail to realize just how much practice and control this takes.
People just like to talk down at things they are unable to do or understand


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## Flying Crane (Jun 9, 2006)

Maybe because it tends to not be aggressive and seek out competitions.  The whole MMA vs. Traditional vs. Reality Pressure Testing debate nonsense.

I have seen some aikido done at a very high level.  I wouldn't mess with those guys.  When done well, it rocks.

Like every other martial art, when done poorly, it sucks.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 9, 2006)

Because they can.

There is no real reason, if they understand aikido. 

Maybe they had a bad experience with it once, maybe they saw it on TV once, and as previously mentioned maybe they don't like Segal. They are looking for vindication of their training or style, they just want to. Millions of reasons, mostly baseless.

I have sparred Aikido people both good and bad but almost all MAs have good and bad practitioners.

I also feel that, most unfortunately, some aikido schools are going the away of many Tai Chi schools. Make it easier and for health and you get more students. 

Basically they bash Aikido for the same reason they bash Chinese martial arts. Well except for the Segal part.

Don't let it get to you and just enjoy Aikido


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## Jenna (Jun 9, 2006)

I agree totally with *Flying Crane *above that this can be largely attributed to the the non-competitive and aiki aspects to our art and to some folk this and the way most genuine aikidoka try to eschew violence and striking in favour of blending and harmony is like the red rag that these bashers NEED to charge.. but bleh.. if I am being honest I would say I generally see WAY more bashing of other arts outside of Aikido.. Some guys just cannot leave their art and other arts alone it is like picking a scab they know will not heal up correctly when they do.. why?? I do not know but I suspect there are maybe a few even on this forum who may give you an answer why they bash from their own experience of doing it

I would agree with what has been stated by many here already.. just DO your aikido and worry not what the martial charlatans are blethering on and do not be influenced nor drawn into it and if you have found a suitable art for YOURSELF in Aikido then outside dispositions become irrelevant

Or perhaps we aikidoka are just poor misunderstood souls who cannot look after ourselves, ha! 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## stone_dragone (Jun 9, 2006)

People bash aikido because their own art sucks! 

Seriously, an art-basher usually lacks the knowledge, experience or maturity in their own art an feel it necessary to see who's master can urinate higher on the tree.

My two cents...


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## pstarr (Jun 9, 2006)

You've got THAT right!


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## MA-Caver (Jun 9, 2006)

Buddha1 said:
			
		

> Hey there,
> 
> I recently started Aikido and train twice a week.
> 
> ...



Probably because you're learning it and they're not! Spoiled brats!

Me, I'm jealous... been wanting to learn it for quite some time. But past and present *ahem* finances haven't allowed it.   Perhaps in the future.


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## Buddha1 (Jun 10, 2006)

MA-Caver said:
			
		

> past and present *ahem* finances haven't allowed it.   Perhaps in the future.



It _is_ expensive. At my dojo, $80 to register, then $40 a month. (New Zealand dollars)


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## Raewyn (Jun 10, 2006)

I dont know why people bash aikido, in fact I dont know why people bash other art forms.  Maybe they are single minded people!  Hey...... who knows!  I used to watch an aikido club.  They shared a dojo with a jujitsu club I was training with.  I used turn up early just to watch the aikido.  I found it to be very interesting.  
My advise is dont worry about what other people think, take it like a grain of salt, as long as your happy with it!!!


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## Robert Lee (Jun 10, 2006)

If you really look at the M/A in general, Alot of arts get talked down today. Aikido is just 1 of those arts beingf talked down. It is like the child in a way. thinking what they have or do is better.  There is more exposer to the different arts today. And with MMA becomeing more well known . And UFC Pride K1 ect, people see more fighting. Then with more people now that has had some kind of M/A training they have to defend there way. Look at JKD it perhaps has more politics then any other art ever had or will have. because its so mis understood as to what is or is not JKD or who has the right to instruct or not instruct. A good Aikido person can defend there self. Will that person get hit Yes But so can anybody. But remember just about every art gets bashed


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## Drac (Jun 10, 2006)

pstarr said:
			
		

> Those bashes are generally made by people who have never studied real aikido. Ignore them. Concentrate on your training.


 
Read and Heed..


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## The MMA kid! (Jun 10, 2006)

samurai69 said:
			
		

> Lack of understanding............
> 
> No art should be knocked unless you have at least tried it


 
even if you _have _tried it at one school, an experience at one school should not define the entire art, no matter how bad or how good.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 10, 2006)

Good Aikido can be very, very effective.  :ultracool 
Enjoy what you do and train hard.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## samurai69 (Jun 10, 2006)

The MMA kid! said:
			
		

> even if you _have _tried it at one school, an experience at one school should not define the entire art, no matter how bad or how good.


 

No, but at least then you can form an opinion







.


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## seal (Jun 11, 2006)

This question is most interesting.  But, first, let me (very) briefly introduce myself.

As a martial artist, I have studied Okinawa Kenpo Karate for many years, as well as TKD.  I have much regard for the martial arts, and, as such, I'm always researching, continuing to understand the philosophies and principles of various systems.  

Onto the question: 

What type of opinion constitutes bashing?  I think there is a difference between bashing and constructive criticism, both of which have been absent, thus far, in this discussion...until this very posting.

Going back to my training (you'll see why in a moment), the reason I stopped is twofold: 1) I became impatient because my training remained stagnant for quite some time; and 2) I realized most of what I learned was all-for-sought and unapplicable to actual self-defense.  Kata is no different than shadow boxing -- it is a dance.  Board breaking doesn't teach you how to fight and is actually quite damaging over a period of time.  Moderate sparring is ultimately futile, if there is no timing and movement coupled along -- not to mention the lack of full contact sparring.  The underlying criticism of what I learned in Karate and TKD (which is really no different than Karate; even the katas are the same) is the student is indrectly taught that his or her opponent will attack in the same manner in which he or she trains.  

Again, I did learn some invaluable skills, such as some knife and gun disarms and joint manipulation.  The most valuable skill -- if you want to label it as such -- I learned is what is NOT effective, as I discussed above.  Still, those skills which I learned above are somewhat tainted, for I don't feel I am sufficiently able to protect myself in a real encounter -- there is more to fighting than the conflict stage.  Anyway, I sense I'm rambling and will move on.

Actually, what I essentially described was Aikido...sort of.  I witnessed an Aikido class, because I had reservations about joining.  Those reservations quickly ballooned into a collective and decisive "no".  Besides the fact that, like many eastern arts, the instructor ("master") always has the upper hand and instills a sense of superiority to their insubordinates (read: the students), the travesty of arts like traditional Karate and Aikido is the lack of live training.

It doesn't matter if you've practiced for 10 years, every day -- no matter the art, JKD, Kali, Gung Fu, BJJ, Krav Maga -- you will not be a good fighter if you don't have a sense of motion, timing, and full resistance training.  The way you train is the way you fight.  If you've never been hit or pummeled in training (full resistance with the proper gear) or in a street fight, you cannot be prepared for the feeling of being in an actual fight.  Practicing dead, static patterns does not prepare you.  In many ways, it's analogous to chess.  

How do you get better at chess?  Well you play against live opponents as many as times as it takes.  You might play 1000 games, let's say -- that's live training.  Imagine you try to get better by working on the exact same opening with your opponent.  You move the left-most pawn, he moves the right-post pawn.  You move the right-most pawn, he moves the second pawn from the left.  You move the knight, he moves his knight.  Now you repeat this opening, say, 40,000 times -- that's a dead, static pattern.  No matter how many times you repeat that opening, your opening will never be any better because you're not playing against a live opponent.

Now I'll tell you straight that I'd recommend Aikido over Karate any day of the week.  There are some very effective moves in Aikido and the art is, overall, more effective than what I studied.  But I'd only recommend it to experienced martial artists, those who have an understanding of actual fighting through live training and wish to add Aikido to their repertoire.  For a beginner, or anyone, who has no sense of being in an actual fight (and I have and it's a long story (in short, I lost) that I will save for another day), I simply cannot recommend it.  And that goes for the arts I studied or any art that excludes live training.


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## Darren Brooks (Jun 11, 2006)

It's too bad we choose to judge without wondering why we are so affected by what we are judging. I have never seen an exception to the rule that, what irritates us the most can be our greatest teacher. If we allow ourselves to reflect upon what is "coming up" for us inside our minds in response to what we judge, well, as Bruce Lee said in Enter the Dragon: "It is like a finger pointing to the moon. Don't stare at the finger or you will miss all of that heavenly glory!".

I have studied Aikido for many years - my first teacher was Akira Tohei Shihan, then Keith Moore Sensei and Fumio Toyoda Shihan, and then Andrew Sato Sensei. 

One reason people "bash" Aikido is perhaps to them it looks like a choreographed dance; two partners working together. The one being thrown (uke) often seems to "go with" the thrower (nage). With beginners and those who have lost the beginners' mind, this is too often true. I have often seen practitioners who just make circles and arm movements and hope their uke will roll and fall for them without considering more deeply why the movements work.

And while each of us must find our own answers, uke can assist nage to learn. In other words, it is uke's job to assist nage to learn - but with resistance and encouragement according to nage's level of training.

I have also studied Taiji and other arts for years, and I can tell you such lack of mindfulness occurs in all those arts as well. I think it is not the art, but the mind of the practitioner which must be challenged. Perhaps Aikido itself plays the role of nage to our minds, which must "take a fall" and be open to learning.

Well, now that I have said all that, there is one thing I myself would like to "bash" about my own Aikido experience.  

I often felt trapped and bored during classes because after so many years of training in various martial arts, dance and movement therapies, I wanted to allow my movements to be more intuitive and in accordance with my own nature. However, the other advanced students I would practice with would discourage this, saying I had to do the techniques the way their teacher said they should be done, or some similar reason. 

There seems to be too much emphasis on trying to keep the Aikido "pure" or some such nonesense. I've been to seminars taught by several of O Sensei's students, and my first Aikido instructor, Tohei Shihan, was one of O Sensei's students and personal assistants. None of these teachers taught the same way O Sensei taught them. How could they if they were to teach the art from their own truths, from their heart?

My Taiji teacher, Kimball Paul, once said, "Do your own Taiji!" Yes, O Sensei came to Aikido through much hard practice of other arts, but what really made this art of his so amazing was the divine inspiration he recieved to make it his own and something different in the world. For example, if martial arts are truly more about stopping the fighting in the world and building character and wisdom, and challenging oneself, then why has only Aikido discontinued the use of tournaments? 

In many ways, then, Aikido is a rather socially evolved art, yet I hope its instructors and practitioners alike do not forget the joy they felt when they first began their training; the dojo can be a wondrous, Willy Wonka-like laboratory of experiment and reflection.


All great thinkers were considered crazy and challenged or "bashed" by their peers. Just as in any other art, such as music or painting or dance, the styles we practice today were often synthesized by one person who withstood the bashings of others to express his or her own divine spark.

here's to beginners' mind!!

darren


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## jujutsu_indonesia (Jun 14, 2006)

Buddha1 said:
			
		

> Hey there,
> 
> I recently started Aikido and train twice a week.
> 
> ...


 
there are two kinds of people who bash martial arts. The first is people whom are not so nice, they will insult anything that does not conform with their world view. do not worry about these kind of people.

the second type are people who wants effective self-defense, and they consider aikido (and aiki jujutsu) training a bit lacking due to steep learning curve or antiquated training methods.

And don't forget all those little people who wants to be Steven Seagal, joined an Aikido Dojo, and become grossly disappointed because they have to learn Shikko, seiza rei, japanese terminology, etc, while all they want is to beat up people and get all the beautiful girls.

I say, to each their own. If Aikido/Aiki Jujutsu training does not fit their "world view", I say let them be. The most important thing is to enjoy training, in whatever art we feels like doing. I like doing karate and jujutsu/aiki jujutsu. I don't need to beat up people like Steven Seagal in his movies. I don't want to possess supernatural powers like Mr. Uyeshiba. I just want to go to the dojo, meet old friends, and have fun training.


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## hapki68 (Jun 15, 2006)

I bash aikido because it's pointless and doesn't work.   



(Just kidding!  sheesh)   

Actually, I started out in aikido in college and loved it.  Being a poor (financially) student, I couldn't afford to continue so I stopped years ago.  I decided to start back up with the MA about a year ago (when I got sick of the gym) and chose hapkido -- aikido's meaner younger brother -- because the school was closer to my house.

I think a lot of people bash aikido because:

1.  It's more elegant and "artsy" and, therefore, harder for the "just punch em" crowd to figure out, and
2.  Aikidoka have that air of intellectualism that a lot of the harder styles feel self-conscious of.  (What other style has so much written about it?)  I'm gonna take a lot of flack for this... but I think it's like when the blue collar crowd bashes the "ivory tower" set.  

So keep it up, "Aikidokans".... I'm a big fan.  

Just be careful not to cross your large circles with hapkido's small ones.   

Hapki


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## Jenna (Jun 15, 2006)

hapki68 said:
			
		

> I bash aikido because it's pointless and doesn't work.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hey Patrick my friend  I am gonna get quite shouty with you for maintaining that Aikidoka are arty intellectual types pffft... I will say if we Aikidoka are arty and intellectual just by virtue of all the air in our hakama then you Hapkidoka are lethal and skillful by virtue of the quilting detail on your gi jackets ha!

Actually in all seriousness I find the Aikido Intelligensia are those who generally give their 101% effort from their leatherette armchairs (or forums... ahem)... for the rest of us right down to the simpletons like myself well getting the sleeves rolled up and throwing each other around a little soon puts to rest any esoteric mythology surrounding the art and I think those who try to maintain this charade of being practitioners of a "superior" art should be rounded up and thrown the local talking shop... and what is a talking shop anyway?? ha!

I understand what you mean but this is a preconception my friend.. though I am certain it does not count that we read a little Aristotle and chat metaphysics after we say our arigatos 

Be good and keep your pants tied!
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## Kensai (Jul 10, 2006)

Buddha1 said:
			
		

> Hey there,
> 
> I recently started Aikido and train twice a week.
> 
> ...



Same as why they bash any other martial art, ignorance. Some people will always have closed minds, and I don't see it as my role to open it for them. Their choice in life. At the same time, it's also not our role to defend a specific art, it only starts an argument with an idiot, and the trouble with that is, that they always drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.


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## Brother John (Jul 10, 2006)

Buddha1 said:
			
		

> But on the internet people are different - they 'bash' aikido and go on about how other martial arts are so much better.
> 
> Could anyone outline for me some reasons why people do this?


Ignorance!


Your Brother
John


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## Robert Lee (Jul 10, 2006)

Aikido does take a high skill level to get it off. perhaps some bash it because of this. I have a few friends who are 4th 5th and 6th dan Aikdo. ! I think is very good another Ok and 1 is poor in getting it off. Now that person if the distance is good can get it working. I mean over a 6 foot spread which is not real aspect. The 1 that I believe is really good He can use his Akido at most ranges. But he has really put down his training time. I think aikido just needs more training time to find your use of it. Others like to see fast results. you do not get that with akido randori takes some training to understand The feel  I have trained a little Akido and aikijutsu. No belts but it has Some movements that will benifit the learning. And as said someone that can get there akido off it works just have to train it long enough to do it.


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## pstarr (Jul 11, 2006)

It might be well to consider that the founder of aikido, Morihei Uyeshiba, was one of the greatest (if not THE greatest) martial arts masters of the last century.

Examine how he trained and what he espoused.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Jul 11, 2006)

pstarr said:
			
		

> It might be well to consider that the founder of aikido, Morihei Uyeshiba, was one of the greatest (if not THE greatest) martial arts masters of the last century.
> 
> Examine how he trained and what he espoused.


 
Unfortunately "greatness" is a matter of opinion as ther is no clearly delineated standard for measuring greatness.  As long as you have opinions there will be some bad ones, hense why Aikido (like every other art) gets bashed.


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## Hand Sword (Jul 11, 2006)

Amen to that! Look at what goes on here in MT alone. Members of the same style destroy each other constantly! So it's easy to pick on an outside art.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Jul 12, 2006)

Hand Sword said:
			
		

> Amen to that! Look at what goes on here in MT alone. Members of the same style destroy each other constantly! So it's easy to pick on an outside art.


 
Too true.


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## Devin (Jul 13, 2006)

Buddha1 said:
			
		

> Hey there,
> 
> I recently started Aikido and train twice a week.
> 
> ...



Because all too often, it is taught very unrealistically. Too many hand grabs and not enough punching or kicking. Not that hand grabs aren't great teaching tools, but not many people will be grabbed like that on the street. When people see an aikido demo where all the attacks are hand grabs its understandable why they would think that's all we train against. And any group that does that is not an effective martial art.

If they see _good_ aikido and still bash it, well then they're just ignorant.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Jul 13, 2006)

Devin said:
			
		

> If they see _good_ aikido and still bash it, well then they're just ignorant.


 
Agreed.


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## Hand Sword (Jul 13, 2006)

Devin said:
			
		

> If they see _good_ aikido and still bash it, well then they're just ignorant.


 
Yep! I've seen some of those people "enlightened" too! Their look says it all! :erg:


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