# new material?



## Hanzo04 (Jul 6, 2004)

i hav heard from several sources that the EPAK system stops learning new material at 3rd dan. is this true? and if so how do so many people advance in this art?


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## Kenpodoc (Jul 6, 2004)

They don't quit learning.   %-} 

Different schools distribute the material differently.  In my schools case none of us have advanced far enough to need to determine exact requirements for advancement.  My instructor was a third degree when I started and is now a fifth degree.  During that time he has not had any required new material but I have never seen him stop learning.  Every time I get better I find that he has improved faster than I.  

Respectfully,

Jeff


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## MisterMike (Jul 6, 2004)

To put it into perspective, most styles have 10 degrees of Black Belt. Do the 10th Dan's ever stop learning?


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## Touch Of Death (Jul 6, 2004)

Hanzo04 said:
			
		

> i hav heard from several sources that the EPAK system stops learning new material at 3rd dan. is this true? and if so how do so many people advance in this art?


That's like saying, "Why read the Bible more than once?". For some its a novel for others its a study guide.
Sean


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## ppko (Jul 6, 2004)

I am not a member of EPAK but I will say that in most arts you stop learning new techniques rather you try to work on perfecting the ones that you have already learned.


PPKO


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## jfarnsworth (Jul 6, 2004)

Hanzo04 said:
			
		

> i hav heard from several sources that the EPAK system stops learning new material at 3rd dan. is this true? and if so how do so many people advance in this art?



That's absurd. There's soooooooooo much material out there that no one person on this board will ever stop learning in their entire lifetime.

I should rephrase something here. The only people who don't learn are the people that choose not to learn anything new. :asian:


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## Rainman (Jul 6, 2004)

Hanzo04 said:
			
		

> i hav heard from several sources that the EPAK system stops learning new material at 3rd dan. is this true? and if so how do so many people advance in this art?



After 5th which is knife set then the physical material could come to an end.  However within the many groups more material has been added.  This is of course only the physical or motion aspect of the art.  It becomes highly conceptual (or should) due to the vastness of concepts, theories and principles used to achieve efficiency.     

In oder to have achieved sixth, seventh or eighth a thesis should be presented to the head of the organization or a book should be published.   Why?  Because when you get that high you are talking about mastery of the physical aided by concepts theories and principles.  It needs to be shown what a person has done and documenting it publicly or privately is the proof.

So yes the art really does go on and on- it is your own mind that puts a stop to progress.  There is were promotion should stop, as soon as an idividual stops progressing and starts regurgatating topics that doom one to mediocrity.   That does not mean that a student of AK can't develope new uses for what has already been said.  Some of the organizational heads are quite adept at this and their work can readily be seen in the ease of adaptability their students articulate through gaceous expansion.


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## jeffkyle (Jul 7, 2004)

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> That's like saying, "Why read the Bible more than once?". For some its a novel for others its a study guide.
> Sean



Well said!


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## Brother John (Jul 7, 2004)

Hanzo04 said:
			
		

> i hav heard from several sources that the EPAK system stops learning new material at 3rd dan. is this true? and if so how do so many people advance in this art?


I think some may have over reacted here. Sorry for that.
I think that they may have mis-understood your point. Only reason I do is because I'd heard the same thing you did (from several sources, before I became a Kenpoist myself), that past a certain point into black belt the set curriculum stops. There's some truth to that, but it may take some explanation...I'll do what I can. If anyone else wants to add anything or whathaveyou...so that Hanzo04 will have a better understanding...PLEASE chime in.

At the time of the Senior Grandmaster's Death just shortly before 1991 there were basically three approved sets of curriculum for American Kenpo Karate. The first (and to my understanding, the oldest) set was 32 techniques per belt up through Green Belt (Belts in Kenpo going Yellow Orange Purple Blue Green Brown 3rd, Brown 2nd, Brown 1st, 1st Black-10th Black) at 3rd Brown began the extensions. Extensions are the same techniques that you learned at a previous belt level, but with more movements added to them (prefixing, inserting within or suffixing the given technique). For instance the material for 3rd Brown has you doing the extensions for the techniques that you learned at Orange Belt. 2nd Brown you do the extensions for Purple Belt...etc. on up through 1st degree Black Belt which has you doing the extensions for Green Belt techniques. To my understanding (limited at best) once you reached 1st Degree Black...there's no more techniques in the written curriculum for you to learn. That's not to say that the learning is over, by NO means (as some have already said emphatically). Plus, there are more forms, weapons and sets to be learned in the curriculum past 1st degree Black. The 32 technique/per-Belt curriculum is very front-end heavy. Nothing wrong with that, just is.

The next two approved sets of curriculum in the EPAK system are the 24 and 16 per belt versions. These are the same curricula as the 32 per belt, just redistributed throughout the belt structure differently. They still contain the extensions though...they just begin later. For instance in the 24 per-belt system the extensions begin at 1st Brown. In the 16 per-belt (my personal favorite) the extensions don't begin until 2nd Degree Black Belt and don't end until you learn the Green Extensions at 5th Degree Black. 

In almost all martial arts that I know of, there's no set curriculum past 5th Degree Black Belt...with all successive degrees having more to do with accomplishments and especially service to the art/association/school overall. 

Remember: The number of belts a person has gone through and or the number of techniques that a person _"KNOWS"_ has little relevance to their quality or worth as a martial artist!!!! Excellence comes from excellent work done...no matter if you come by it through the 32-24 or 16 per belt technique curricula or if your school/instructor/group...whathaveyou...doesn't even do the extensions at all. These are consequential at best. To me what matters are (in order):
1: Good attitude.
2: Dedication to consistent hard work.
3: Attention to details.
4: Contributing to the welfare of others.

These are what (I Feel) makes for a good martial artist...no matter the number of techniques known.
 :asian: 
Your Brother
John 
PS: Here are two links to help you learn more or understand better.
This is an interview with Brian Duffy, a student of Mr. Parker's who set up the 16 per belt system.
http://www.kenponet.com/flame/whoswho/interviews/bduffy_int.html
The next is from Mr. Michael Billing's website (good site too) which shows a list of each of these sets of curriculum (in case you are more of a visual learner)
http://www.kenpo-texas.com/techref.html#32 Tech


Have a good'n


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## Hanzo04 (Jul 7, 2004)

thanks a lot.


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