# terrorism in norway



## Twin Fist (Jul 22, 2011)

jihadists have already claimed credit

norway

NORWAY


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## billc (Jul 22, 2011)

Are you sure...just want to be accurate with the info. while things are still being worked out on the ground in Norway...


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## Twin Fist (Jul 22, 2011)

According to the New York Times, a group calling itself Ansar al-Jihad al-Alami, or Helpers of the Global Jihad, issued a statement claiming responsibility:​A terror group, Ansar al-Jihad al-Alami, or the Helpers of the Global Jihad, issued a statement claiming responsibility for the attack, according to Will McCants, a terrorism analyst at C.N.A., a research institute that studies terrorism. The message said the attack was a response to Norwegian forces&#8217; presence in Afghanistan and to unspecified insults to the Prophet Muhammad. &#8220;We have warned since the Stockholm raid of more operations,&#8221; the group said, according to Mr. McCants&#8217; translation, apparently referring to a bombing in Sweden in December 2010. &#8220;What you see is only the beginning, and there is more to come.&#8221; The claim could not be confirmed.​​


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## billc (Jul 22, 2011)

Thanks for the info. but I would like to see more as things develop...


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 22, 2011)

CNN Reports:


> Police: Undetonated explosives were found on Norway's Utoya Island, where a gunman earlier opened fire on a youth camp.




*STORY HIGHLIGHTS*


NEW: Police say the man arrested on he island appears to have been near the blast site
A massive explosion rocks central Oslo; at least 7 people are killed
A shooter attacks a Labour Party youth camp
Police say they have good reason to believe the two incidents are linked


http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/europe/07/22/norway.explosion/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

FoxNews


> [h=1]At Least 16 Dead in Norway
> In Capital Bombing, Camp Shooting[/h]    Suspect  in custody after gunman dressed as a police officer opens fire at a  youth camp on an island outside Oslo, where officials confirm 9 or 10  dead &#8212; hours after a massive car bomb explodes in Oslo, killing at least  7 people.




MSNBC has an article that goes into detail on possible who's
[h=5]Who is behind attacks?[/h]
Islamic groups have claimed responsibility in the past, only to be disproven later. Oklahoma City for example.  The gunman in question looks to be ethnically Northern European based on his ability to fit in. 

So, for now...
Terrorism? Yes
Islamic Terrorism? Maybe.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 22, 2011)

> Police arrested the suspected gunman at the camp and the government have confirmed that he is Norwegian.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14256712



> Police later said that he was also linked with the bomb attack. Reports described him as tall and blond.





> No group has said it carried out the attacks.


 As of 5:30pm NY time.  
Johns report may be from a more recent source. 
 I don't see confirmation at CNN, Fox, MSNBC or the BBC at this time, however developing story means lag as all the sources and speculation sync up.  
A group claiming responsibility isn't the same as actually being responsible. 
I expect this to clear up as the investigation progresses.



> [h=2]Analysis[/h] 		 	 		Gordon Corera 	Security correspondent, BBC News
> The prime minister and justice minister have declined to  speculate on a motive behind the attack but police are saying that they  believe the car bomb and the shooting are linked and that they have a  suspect in custody from Utoeya.
> The ministers are confirming he is Norwegian. During the day,  after an initial focus on an al-Qaeda link, the possibility of domestic  extremism increasingly came into focus.
> The choice of targets - government buildings and a political  youth rally - suggested a possible political agenda rather than the mass  casualty approach typically employed by al-Qaeda.
> Constructing a large car bomb requires a degree of  sophistication and the crucial factor for the police will be  establishing how many people are behind this attack, whether any are  still at large and to whom they might be connected.



See also: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14254705


BBC story updated 2 minutes ago (from this posts time)


> At least seven people were killed in the bombing, which inflicted huge damage on government buildings in Oslo.
> At least 10 more died at the camp, on an island outside Oslo, police say. One witness said he had seen 20 bodies.
> The suspected gunman was arrested at the camp and the government have confirmed that he is Norwegian.
> Police have said that he was also linked with the bomb attack. Reports described him as tall and blond.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 22, 2011)

Fox


> Although police would not speculate on who was responsible for Friday's  attack or whether international groups were involved, Norway has been  grappling with a homegrown terror plot linked to al-Qaida. Two suspects  are in jail awaiting charges.
> ...
> Many intelligence analysts said they had  never heard of Helpers of Global Jihad, which took initial credit. Ansar  al-Islam also took credit on some jihadist web sites.
> Ayers said it appeared more than one person was involved.


http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/07/22/explosion-damages-buildings-in-norwegian-capital/


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## Sukerkin (Jul 22, 2011)

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?97521-What-On-Earth

This was the state of play news-wise at 6PM GMT.


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## Sukerkin (Jul 22, 2011)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14256712

This is from the BBC half an hour ago.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 22, 2011)

> OSLO, Norway  -- A Norwegian police official says the 32-year-old Norwegian man  suspected of the Oslo bombing and a shooting at a youth camp does not  appear to be linked to Islamist terrorism.
> The official says the attacks probably have  more in common with the 1995 attack on a U.S. federal building in  Olkahoma City than the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks.


http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/0...dly-by-one-man-no-ties-to-islamist-terrorism/

This contradicts earlier reports of Islamic terrorism.
However, at this stage 5 1/2 hrs after the attacks, it's still too early to be certain, IMO.
Other cases (like the Bin Laden SEAL mission) changed every few minutes.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 22, 2011)

MSNBC


> "Intuitively, the bombing is al-Qaida-related," Ranstorp told the  Norwegian Nettavisen news service. But the new information about the  suspected gunman &#8212; especially his nationality &#8212; "points to an internal  rather than external extremist," he said.
> 
> 
> "With this attack on Utoya, this could just be a crazy person," Ranstorp said.
> ...


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43857267/ns/world_news-europe/


So, it seems the current position is, "Maybe".


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## Martin h (Jul 22, 2011)

The man has been linked to right wing extremist (read: Nazi) convictions, but not to any group. His contact with the law, is in a 10+year old traffic misdemeanor.
He is a christian, outspoken opponent of multiculturalism&islam, and a member of a Freemason lodge.

All according to Norwegian news.

Norwegian police confirms a MINIMUM of 80 dead at the youth party summer camp island!


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## Martin h (Jul 22, 2011)

as for why  the islamic extremist groups tried to claim credit, I find it darkly amusing the the Islamist´s tried to claim credit for a act of terror done by a right wing, christian, outspoken anti-Islamic terrorist/madman.


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## Big Don (Jul 22, 2011)

Bob Hubbard said:


> MSNBC
> 
> "With this attack on Utoya, this could just be a crazy person," Ranstorp said.


It is amazing how many of these crazy people are Muslims...


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## Bill Mattocks (Jul 22, 2011)

I'm very sorry to hear about all of this.  It's horrible.  Those responsible, whether it is one person or a group, must be found and brought to justice.

I am reading that the person arrested as the suspect in both the bombing and the shooting is a right-wing anti-nazi (yes, anti-nazi, not nazi) Christian extremist.  He was a farmer and apparently had access to large quantities of the type of fertilizer that was used as bomb components in the OKC bombings.  The victims were members and children of the members of the Norwegian ruling liberal party.

Of course, as we all know, if a Christian commits these types of crimes, they are not representative of the Christian faith.  If a Muslim does it, then of course it does represent the evil religion of Islam.

If a Christian commits a crime of this nature, they are most likely deranged.  If a Muslim does it, he is not insane, he is full of hatred.

As we know from the recent statements of certain MT members, Christians do not commit crimes like this in recent times, only Muslims do.

The Norwegian Islamic Council has taken to the airwaves to condemn this terrorism, even when it was announced that some (apparently non-existent) Islamic terrorist group had taken credit for the bombing and it wasn't know that it might have been a right-wing Christian who did it.  But of course, Muslims do not speak out to condemn terrorism, it does not happen.  So the reports, we know, are lies.  No Muslim disavows violence or condemns their own people for committing it.  They're too full of hate for that.

And since it appears that it is a Christian who has done this, we will now stop talking about it.  If it's not a Muslim, we're not interested, and in a few days, will pretend it didn't happen.

Yeah.

My prayers are for the victims of this.  I'm very sorry it has happened, no matter who did it or why they they felt it necessary.  It is evil no matter who does it.

I'm sorry that the instant assumption is that Muslims did it, and that so many rushed to their keyboards to triumphantly point out that the evil Muslims were up to no good again.  How's that crow taste, boys?  Yeah, I know, you won't admit maybe you were wrong.  You're never wrong.  PS - a special thanks to those in this thread who urged waiting to find out what really happened before putting on the "All Muslims are Bad" hat again.

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Back...attacks-Nationalist-motives-may-be-root-cause.



> The bombing and shooting in Norway were quickly blamed on Islamic fundamentalists by many, but as investigators piece together the violent attacks, a Christian Nationalist looks more likely.





> The alleged assailant is also identified as holding anti-Islamic and anti-immigrant views that are common among Norway's far right.



http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/23/world/europe/23oslo.html



> Muslim leaders in Norway swiftly condemned the attacks. This is our homeland, this is my homeland, said Mehtab Afsar, secretary general of the Islamic Council of Norway. I condemn these attacks, and the Islamic Council of Norway condemns these attacks, whoever is behind them.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jul 22, 2011)

> It is amazing how many of these crazy people are Muslims...



Yeah.  Like the guy who shot up the shopping center in Phoenix - since found to be stone cold nuts - definitely a Muslim.

And the guy who started shooting people at the Holocaust Museum.  A real nutter, and definitely a Muslim.

And this guy in Norway?  Blond hair, blue eyes, right-wing Christian anti-immigrant anti-Muslim as he's being described now?  Definitely crazy, and of course, a Muslim.

I was going to go to church on Sunday, but you know, I'm feeling kinda wacko, so I'll probably go to a Mosque, because you know, all the crazy people are Muslims.


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## Twin Fist (Jul 22, 2011)

no one said that Bill, so stop accusing people of things they didnt do


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 23, 2011)

Actually I have to defend TF here.
The OP and post #3 (moreso) cited claims.
He didn't point the finger, etc.

We can argue intent etc, but he simply in my view was the first to bring the event in for discussion as the initial news was breaking.
10 hours in, it's a very different image than it was 2 hrs in.

I gotta be fair here, and y'all know I've beaten on him when I thought he went too far, but he just initiated the discussion in my opinion.

Now lets focus on the more important bits of the still developing tragedy.

:asian:


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## Tez3 (Jul 23, 2011)

At least 84 people have been killed on the island and 7 at least killed in the bomb, the Norwegian police have arrested a Norwegian, named as Anders Behring Breivik, he is described as Christian Right Wing, the young people mown down on the island were socialists.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...eivik-right-wing-extremist-hated-Muslims.html

They are still searching on the island for bodies.

Please let this be an end to the nonsense that only 'socialists' are violent and that conservatives ar peaceful, in this huge tragedy, the biggest in Norway since the war, we should be thinking of the families of the young people and those killed in the bombing not bickering over who's 'side' is the more violent. The killer had links the police are saying to the extreme right wing, groups many of us here have been worried about for a long time.


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## Carol (Jul 23, 2011)

We shouldn't be fighting each other over niggling definitions, we should be fighting the terrorists and the extremists out there that are trying to murder innocent people and terrorize civilians. 


The shock the Norwegians are going through, having watched a grand-scale massacre at a summer camp...


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## billc (Jul 23, 2011)

We'll wait and see what comes out over the next few days.


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## Tez3 (Jul 23, 2011)

The BBC news is carrying eye witness reports as well as those from the Norwegian police. It's harrowing that so many young people were gunned down but the leader of the young socialists has said in a press conference that the Norwegian people will not give in to terrorism and will continue to be the open free thinking and speaking people they have always been, good for him. We mustn't let terrorists change our way of life,it's been said many times, that while remaining alert we must carry on as normal.
this is the BBC news updated a couple of minutes ago.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14259356


Police reports, unofficial at the moment are saying the killer has links to neo Nazis as well. The fear is that he may not have been working alone and we could expect other attacks in Europe.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jul 23, 2011)

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/europe/07/23/norway.suspect/



> A picture is emerging, gleaned from official sources and social media, of a right-wing Christian fundamentalist who may have had an issue with Norway's multi-cultural society.



http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503543_162-20082394-503543.html



> National police chief Sveinung Sponheim told NRK that the suspected gunman's Internet postings "suggest that he has some political traits directed toward the right, and anti-Muslim views, but whether that was a motivation for the actual act remains to be seen."  A Breivik Facebook page, which is no longer available, listed body building and freemasonry as interests.
> 
> TV 2 News Channel reported that Breivik has previously been a member of the Progress Party's Youth and Oslo FRP.
> 
> Andersen said the suspect posted on websites with Christian fundamentalist tendencies. He did not describe the websites in any more details.



I am waiting for someone to explain to me how it is that the headlines don't read _"Christian bombing and shooting"_ when if a Muslim does it, the headlines read _"Muslim bombing and shooting."_

And I'm still waiting for an update on that earlier statement on MT that _"Christians are not actively bombing and shooting people, but Muslims are."_  Who was it that said that, hmmm?

Well, maybe the guy's crazy.  Of course, if that's the case, he must be a Muslim.  Only Muslims are crazy.  As insinuated earlier in this thread.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jul 23, 2011)

Bob Hubbard said:


> We can argue intent ...



Yes, we can.  And I think it's rather a stretch to pretend that we don't know what the intent was.



> Re: planned attack on a recruiting station
> 
> christians are not blowing **** up
> 
> pretty much closes that argument down.






> "TODAY i dont have to worry about christians blowing me up, i DO have to worry about muslims blowing my **** up."



So what's the deal?  Do Christians actually blow **** up, or is the guy a sekrit Muslim?  Is it possible that someone here is actually (gasp) wrong?

So yeah, I think previous statements go to intent.  Call it circumstantial evidence.  That _"nobody said anything"_ stuff doesn't fly.  Didn't have to.  We were meant to understand and we did.  I did, anyway.  But I don't really have an 'off' switch where it comes to sandlot bullies.


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## Tez3 (Jul 23, 2011)

This is the Royal Norwegian Embassy in Londons Facebook page, if anyone wants to add their condolences, I'm sure there will also be an American one as well.

http://www.facebook.com/NorwegianEmbassyUK


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 23, 2011)

*Latest Updates from Major Networks.

CNN*

*91 dead in Norway attacks
Store: Man bought 6 tons of fertilizer*
&#8226; At least 84 killed at island youth camp
 &#8226; Gunfire on island lasted two hours 
 &#8226; 7 killed, 90 hospitalized after Oslo blast
 &#8226; Survivor identifies the shooting suspect

FULL STORY


 Picture emerges of suspect
 Norway attacks: Latest developments
 Youth camp 'turned to hell'
 Survivor: Victims tried to swim away
 High-res photos

*FOX*


*'Madman' Eyed in Norway Massacre*
Search  is on for more victims in capital bombing and youth camp shooting  rampage that killed at least 91 &#8212; as suspect in custody, identified as  Anders Behring Breivik, is said to have bought 6 tons of fertilizer  before bombing.
*Second Shooter Involved?* | *Knife-Wielding Man Detained Near PM Meeting* | *Sweden Steps Up Security*
*PHOTOS: Deadly Bombing, Shooting in Norway*






 | *OPINION: How to Make Sense of What Happened in Oslo*
*
MSNBC

'Paradise' turned to 'hell': 84 killed at Norway youth camp*
Suspect, is charged; police talk of signs he may be a right-wing, Christian fundamentalist. Full story
Suspect identified as 32-year-old farmer    |  Right-wing extremism emerging?


*BBC*
*
Norway youth camp attack kills 84*
At least 84 people died when a gunman opened fire at a Norwegian  island youth camp, police say, after a bomb attack killed seven in  Oslo.                          

 Norway attacks - latest Live
 'I played dead to stay alive' Watch
 Eyewitness: 'People falling dead'
 Viewpoint: Values attacked
 Suspect's profile
 Far right - not a spent force
 How attacks happened

NORWAY ATTACKS PM Stoltenberg says there are many people who do not know if their children are alive or not
NORWAY ATTACKS The king and the queen visit relatives of victims
NORWAY ATTACKS A man is detained outside a hotel where the prime minister was visiting relatives of victims
NORWAY ATTACKS Farm supply firm says it sold six tonnes of fertiliser to suspect in May


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## Twin Fist (Jul 23, 2011)

lone nutters are just that, lone nutters

organized groups are just that

the difference for the obtuse out there, there is (currently)no evidence that this attack was motivated by religion

with the muslim terrorists, it IS, they say so themselves

I could also point out that when a lone nutter of the christian variety goes off the farm, it is always that, a lone nutter

islam has organized GROUPS of nutter than span the globe


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## Sukerkin (Jul 23, 2011)

Gentlemen, I just want to go on record as saying that it would be most courteous of those with 'hot irons' in the fire of debate over religion and politics to put them to one side for a few days, at least when it comes to discussing this act of terror.


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## The Last Legionary (Jul 23, 2011)

***Removed***


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## Bill Mattocks (Jul 23, 2011)

EDIT: Removed per request.


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## Buka (Jul 23, 2011)

Muslim, Christian, Nazi, anti-Nazi, - it really doesn't matter in my opinion. I don't even care if he's nuts. He killed children. He is a monster. He should be treated like one.


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## Tez3 (Jul 23, 2011)

He may not be a lone gunman, some of the survivors of the island shootings are said to have reported a second gunman being there. The police have just had a press conference, watched it live, they aren't for obvious reasons saying much at the moment.
 Their intelligence services as well as the police are investigating.
 However the death toll has gone up to 92 with 4 or 5 still missing.


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## Makalakumu (Jul 23, 2011)

Maybe the public face of terrorism is changing.  Terrorist = Right Wing Extremist.  How many people can be thrown under that umbrella?  LOL @ Karma.


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## Tez3 (Jul 23, 2011)

Right wing terrorism has been around for quite a while in Europe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-wing_terrorism


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## granfire (Jul 23, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> Right wing terrorism has been around for quite a while in Europe.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-wing_terrorism



Those homegrown guys are actually more dangerous.
(Yes TF, it is my _humble opinion_, not a fact)
These guys fly under the radar until they snap.


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## Tez3 (Jul 23, 2011)

The killer has admitted what he has done and said it 'was gruesome but necessary'.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14265094


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## granfire (Jul 24, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> The killer has admitted what he has done and said it 'was gruesome but necessary'.
> 
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14265094


well, shows you that evil isn't necessarily visible to the naked eye...
(At least Timothy McVeigh was himself appalled when he learned that he killed that many children)


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## Big Don (Jul 24, 2011)

granfire said:


> Those homegrown guys are actually more dangerous.
> (Yes TF, it is my _humble opinion_, not a fact)
> These guys fly under the radar until they snap.


 You mean like Virginia born Major Hasan? Had this guy in Norway screeched Allahu Akbar, the media would be utterly baffled as to his motives...


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## billc (Jul 24, 2011)

I'm giving this a few days, then I'll chime in.


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## granfire (Jul 24, 2011)

Big Don said:


> You mean like Virginia born Major Hasan? Had this guy in Norway screeched Allahu Akbar, the media would be utterly baffled as to his motives...



No, because here a guy named Hassan raises eyebrows, and anybody with darker skin is suspect.
Blondie could have not looked more innocent...


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## Steve (Jul 24, 2011)

This is just awful.  

As for waiting and chiming in, I don't know why anyone would bother.  The political debate around this won't change anyone's mind and what angers me is that some are clearly already sifting through the events so that it can best reflect their political stance.  Logic and reason be damned.


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## Makalakumu (Jul 24, 2011)

Before liberally apply the terror label to everything else under the sun, let's look at another example.  If people are feeling outraged by what happened in Norway, can you find some outrage for this?  It would be consistent...


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## granfire (Jul 24, 2011)

stevebjj said:


> This is just awful.
> 
> As for waiting and chiming in, I don't know why anyone would bother.  The political debate around this won't change anyone's mind and what angers me is that some are clearly already sifting through the events so that it can best reflect their political stance.  Logic and reason be damned.



true. (but the same happened when Congress woman Gifford was shot, too...)

but what I noticed, and it kind of reminds me of 9-12-01 when a neighbor of mine got sick and the ambulance was in front of their hose with blinking light, the initial onset of panic...you hear of something blowing up these days and automatically look to the middle east for the culprits. 

We have entrenched ourselves and let irrational thought cloud our minds, maybe even opens us up to attacks like this because you just simply overlook the potential of violence closer to home.


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## Tez3 (Jul 24, 2011)

stevebjj said:


> This is just awful.
> 
> As for waiting and chiming in, I don't know why anyone would bother. The political debate around this won't change anyone's mind and what angers me is that some are clearly already sifting through the events so that it can best reflect their political stance. Logic and reason be damned.



That's what I was thinking, it would be appalling if anyone was to try and spin this into anyting other than what it is, a man who wanted to 'start a revolution' ( the killer's words) and was prepared to kill as many as it took, he says on his 'manifesto' that it's better to kill too many than not enough. This man has confessed to killing young people, no amount of twisting, spinning or word acrobatacis is going to make it anything other than an appalling horrific waste of young lives. As you say some are already trying to use this to reflect their political stance and I swear anyone who continues to say that the neo Nazis are socialists, I will curse them unto death for their unfeeling, self serving, twisted and misbegotten views of history. It makes me feel physically sick that people will try to skew history in order to fit their points of view.  

I watched the Tour de France this afternoon, it was the final stage in Paris, it started with a minutes silence for the Norwegian victims of a cold blooded politically motivated killer, his acts have horrified people all over Europe, where we remember the Nazis and their horrors, we don't want it back. The Neo Nazi movement has been bubbling away over here for a lot longer than any Islamic threat, truth be told in many places it's never left since the war. 
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?97533-terrorism-in-norway/page3

Look at these photos and weep as we do for those lost lives.


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## billc (Jul 24, 2011)

Tez, he may have been linked to neo-nazis, which makes him one type of socialist.  Let the cursing begin, but it is the truth.  I'll have more later at a more appropriate time.  You might want to wait as well.


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## Tez3 (Jul 24, 2011)

billcihak said:


> Tez, he may have been linked to neo-nazis, which makes him one type of socialist. Let the cursing begin, but it is the truth. I'll have more later at a more appropriate time. You might want to wait as well.



No, you have nothing to say that I want to read, you distort what we in Europe who suffered under the Nazis know to be the truth, it's frankly dispicable that you would use a tragedy to peddle your lies and political twists and turns. You accuse the world's leading historian in German history of being brainwashed by socialists, you state that economics define political thought, you insist you are correct and millions of others are wrong, it disgusts me that someone could be so unfeeling, so blind and so hateful as to defame and distort the deaths of millions to suit your own agenda. I will not let you get away on here of writing lies and using the bones of my family to blame people who had nothing to do with their deaths just so you can claim Nazis are socialists. No one here or in Europe thinks they are, only you and your twisted pals. 
You won't change your song, you continue to give offence by clinging to the perverse idea that the conservative Nazis are in fact socialists, it may wash among your mates but it doesn't wash on an international site I'm afraid. If you remember your history you'll remember that most of Europe was invaded by the Nazis, even parts of the UK were.

Here where I am, we feel great sadness for the Norwegian people, we have close links. Many service personnel spend time in Norway training, our local town is twinned with a Norwegian one and the King of Norway is Colonel in Chief of the Green Howards our local regiment, he comes across for regimental dinners, parades etc. To see him crying in church today as he mourned the loss of his people, mostly teenagers was one of the most hearbreaking things I've seen. don't bring these people down into the mire by giving your version of history, rememeber how much the Norwegians suffered under the Nazis in the war and now by this self confessed conservative neo Nazi who wanted to start a revoluton ( all his words btw). All the dead at the hands of the Nazis deserve better than your mischief.


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## billc (Jul 24, 2011)

Tez, you began the discussion by stating your views on the topic, I didn't.  You chose to start politicizing the tragedy by trying to silence people who disagree with your opinions.  I am still going to wait for a more appropriate moment, and then I will weigh in.


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## Tez3 (Jul 24, 2011)

billcihak said:


> Tez, you began the discussion by stating your views on the topic, I didn't. You chose to start politicizing the tragedy by trying to silence people who disagree with your opinions. I am still going to wait for a more appropriate moment, and then I will weigh in.



Oh really? I haven't tried to silence anyone I'm just tired of you trampling on the bones of the dead by insisitng you are always correct in your statements. You don't know my politics, you don't know who I vote for so to accuse me of politicising this when you post up your political views on every subject under the sun has to be a joke. This killer is a self confessed *conservative neo nazi *who killed children at a *socialist *rally, how much more 'political' do you want it? Politics and political views are at the very heart of why this man killed so many people, he carries the self same views you profess to but according to you I'm the one politicalising it, don't make me laugh sunshine.


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## billc (Jul 24, 2011)

Like I said, I'll discuss this later, and in detail.


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## The Last Legionary (Jul 24, 2011)

Yo peeps! Not the place. If I can get that, you all can.


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## Sukerkin (Jul 24, 2011)

Aye.

To reiterate what I posted a couple of pages back:

Ladies and Gentlemen, I just want to go on record as saying that it would be most courteous of those with 'hot irons' in the fire of debate over religion and politics to put them to one side for a few days, at least when it comes to discussing this act of terror.

Mark A. Beardmore
MT Mentor


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## Cirdan (Jul 24, 2011)

Hello friends. I understand some of you have been concerned for me. Thanks, I am all right.

Ironically I have spent the three last days in Israel, a dangerous place some tell me, and while I have a great time in Tel Aviv it is back in good old Norway the bombing and massacre happen. I even walked by the administration buildings (yes, that place) the day before I left, marvelling at how peaceful a place it was. Got back in Oslo three hours ago, paid my respect with a minute of silence next to the sea of flowers and candles (where people are still putting down more of them).

It is no doubt that this person has changed Norway forever. But how it changes it is not up to him, that is something all of us decide by our actions in the following days and the future. A survivor from Utøya, Stine Renate Haheim, put it this way and the quote is spreading: "If one man can preach that much hate, you can only imagine how much love we as a togetherness can create"


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## Tez3 (Jul 24, 2011)

Sukerkin said:


> Aye.
> 
> To reiterate what I posted a couple of pages back:
> 
> ...



The whole point however of this act of terror is political, the man who confessed to these killings said himself that it's political, he wants a revolution so it's very hard to discuss this without bringing up the subject of politics when it's at the very heart of this act. This thread is in the Study not in the Remembrance part where perhaps a new thread should be posted, a non political one where people can post their condolances.

Cirdan, I've very glad you are okay, it did worry me. We've just been hosting some fighters from Trondheim MMA over here and we contacted them to see if anyone was involved, we haven't had an answer back yet but now that the weekend is over I expect we will.


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## Twin Fist (Jul 25, 2011)

extreem anything = bad


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 25, 2011)

[h=1]Suspect Warns of More Terror Cells[/h]  							

Judge rules that  Anders Behring Breivik, left, the man who confessed to carrying out  attacks that left 76 people dead in Norway, will be held in complete  isolation for four weeks, as he warns that there are two more cells in  his terror group.


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## Twin Fist (Jul 25, 2011)

lets hope he is full of crap


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## Cirdan (Jul 25, 2011)

Hello friends

I have been in the city today where many of the closed streets are opened again. Some are still blocked off because of risk of falling debris. The damage and number of broken windows are greater than I expected. Even the martial arts store across the marketplace have not escaped the shockwave completely, a coffe place I frequent closer to the bomb site looks more damaged and broken windows are still being removed in the building. Tens of thousands of people, maybe hundreds of thousands, pass by me heading to the gathering and concert outside town hall, holding flowers. The atmosphere is one of strength and hope, not fear or anger. Sometimes I have been resentful of the general public, today I am proud. 

"Together we will punish this murderer. Our punishment will be more generosity, more tolerance and more democracy"
-Fabian Stang, mayor of Oslo.


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## Carol (Jul 25, 2011)

Cirdan said:


> Hello friends
> 
> I have been in the city today where many of the closed streets are opened again. Some are still blocked off because of risk of falling debris. The damage and number of broken windows are greater than I expected. Even the martial arts store across the marketplace have not escaped the shockwave completely, a coffe place I frequent closer to the bomb site looks more damaged and broken windows are still being removed in the building. Tens of thousands of people, maybe hundreds of thousands, pass by me heading to the gathering and concert outside town hall, holding flowers. The atmosphere is one of strength and hope, not fear or anger. Sometimes I have been resentful of the general public, today I am proud.
> 
> ...



Today we are all Norwegian. :asian:


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## Archangel M (Jul 25, 2011)

http://www.policeone.com/Officer-Sa...s-The-killing-will-not-stop-until-we-stop-it/



> In the aftermath of the 90-minute hail of gunfire allegedly perpetrated by Anders Behring Breivik  and potentially at least one accomplice  Ive been thinking about how the chosen target of a remote island youth camp is eerily similar to a camp I once attended as a young person back in the early 1980s. That, in turn, got me to thinking, Could those local cops in rural New York state  back when I attended the camp or today  respond more quickly than those Norwegian officers were able to? I have to believe they most certainly could. According to a variety of reports, the gunman had at least one full hour to go about his deadly work unchallenged in part because an armed response team was some 45 minutes away by car, and in part because once that armed team did show up, they flooded the boat theyd attempted to take to end the shooting. They then had to commandeer a group of civilian craft to get to the island.



...



> Sending an unarmed police officer to the scene of an active shooter would illicit the same result as sending one of the members of the Norwegian Royal family. They would both possess impressive titles, but absolutely no tangible power to stop the shooter. They would both probably make a vein but courageous attempt to save lives. After the attempt failed, both be given grand funerals.



It took 45 minutes for cops with guns to show up. In this day and age it's my opinion that these European police agencies really need to reconsider the wisdom of unarmed police officers.


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## Cirdan (Jul 25, 2011)

Hello friends

I have added a small album of pictures taken in Oslo today. There are without doubt better images in the news, but you might find some of them interesting.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/album.php?albumid=197

I am leaving to visit realtives in the country tomorrow and won`t be on the net for a while. You all take care and remember hate is not the answer.
http://www.vgtv.no/#!id=42472


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## Tez3 (Jul 25, 2011)

Cirdan said:


> Hello friends
> 
> I have added a small album of pictures taken in Oslo today. There are without doubt better images in the news, but you might find some of them interesting.
> 
> ...



Thank you for the photos, Norway and the UK especially the north, have much in common and a very long history together, in our local town Richmond the flags were at half mast as they were I know in Newcastle a city that's almost half Norwegian. Shetland too has been in mourning with you as well as the Orkneys.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-14269118

Take care.


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## Tez3 (Jul 25, 2011)

Archangel M said:


> http://www.policeone.com/Officer-Sa...s-The-killing-will-not-stop-until-we-stop-it/
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You do know that European police *are* armed? Only the UK police aren't routinely. I think the writer of the article has misunderstood a fair bit or it hasn't been reported properly.


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## Archangel M (Jul 25, 2011)

http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/07/25/horrific-details-continue-to-emerge/



> *Police in Norway are generally unarmed* and Berntsen, who had taken on the extra job as a private security guard and was not in police service on Utøya, was unarmed as well. But his son said he attempted to stop the gunman when he started firing, only to be shot and killed himself.



This is just one article. There are numerous sources saying that Police in Norway are unarmed. They have armed "response teams".


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_enforcement_by_country 


> The Norwegian national police force (Norwegian: _Politiet_) is subordinate to the Ministry of Justice and Police. The Politiet is divided into 27 regional police departments and seven nation-wide special departments. In total the force has about 11.000 employees, with the Oslo police precinct, as the largest, accounting for 2300.
> Officers of Politiet usually do not carry firearms, making the force one of the few unarmed police organizations in the world. They are instead armed with telescopic batons and pepper spray.[SUP][_citation needed_][/SUP]


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## Tez3 (Jul 25, 2011)

Archangel M said:


> http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/07/25/horrific-details-continue-to-emerge/
> 
> 
> 
> This is just one article. There are numerous sources saying that Police in Norway are unarmed. They have armed "response teams".



You said Europe, it's more than one country you know.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_Police_Service

"Norwegian police do not carry firearms on a daily basis; _they keep them locked down in the patrol cars,_ and if need arises they have to get permission by the police commissioner or someone authorized by him or her. _If there is no time to contact a superior, a police officer may arm himself and anyone under his_ _command._ From 1994 to 2004 the Norwegian police fired approximately 79 shots; 48 of these were fired during the Nokas Robbery in 2004.
As a part of the anti-terror work after the September 11, 2001 attacks, every regional area has its own mobile unit which is specially trained to handle these types of missions"


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## Archangel M (Jul 25, 2011)

I said that European police agencies need to reconsider the wisdom of unarmed officers, there are a few agencies that don't arm their cops. They should reconsider IMO. The only thing that can be done in these mass killing situations is for any nearby officer to arm and engage. NOT wait an hour for cops who are allowed guns to show up. It's a lesson we coppers here learned from Columbine. We now frequently train in what we call "active shooter" response. Waiting for a tactical unit to show up is last decades strategy.


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## elder999 (Jul 25, 2011)

Archangel M said:


> ...
> 
> 
> 
> It took 45 minutes for cops with guns to show up. In this day and age it's my opinion that these European police agencies really need to reconsider the wisdom of unarmed police officers.



Dude, all the cops here are armed, and there are lots of places-like, remote places where you'd have, I dunno, a *camp?-* where expected emergency response has a 45 minute minimum.


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## Tez3 (Jul 25, 2011)

Archangel M said:


> I said that European police agencies need to reconsider the wisdom of unarmed officers, there are a few agencies that don't arm their cops. They should reconsider IMO. The only thing that can be done in these mass killing situations is for any nearby officer to arm and engage. NOT wait an hour for cops who are allowed guns to show up. It's a lesson we coppers here learned from Columbine. We now frequently train in what we call "active shooter" response. Waiting for a tactical unit to show up is last decades strategy.



Which countries in Europe aren't armed then?


The Norwegian police explanation of the time taken. I believe the gunman was shooting for a long time_ before_ the alarm was raised not afterwards.
http://www.newsmania.com/norwegian-police-to-give-explanation-regarding-utoeya-island-attack-2150/


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## Archangel M (Jul 25, 2011)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jul/25/norway-attack-victim-saved-son



> *Trond Berntsen was working as an off-duty police officer on Utøya when Anders Behring Breivik arrived at the shore.* Unarmed and unaware of the horror that was about to be unleashed on the island, Berntsen succeeded in protecting his 10-year-old son but could do nothing to save himself. The father-of-two became one of Breivik's first victims when he was shot dead within minutes.



And if you actually read the article I posted instead of the blurbs, you will see that the author makes a few points. One about the wisdom of having to wait 45 minutes for an "armed response team" to arrive (here the first 1-3 cops on location would have been expected to commandeer a boat and GO) and TWO the wisdom of disarming off duty police officers. This man would have had a far greater chance of stopping this (or slowing it down) if he had been armed.


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## Archangel M (Jul 25, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> Which countries in Europe aren't armed then?
> 
> 
> The Norwegian police explanation of the time taken. I believe the gunman was shooting for a long time_ before_ the alarm was raised not afterwards.
> http://www.newsmania.com/norwegian-police-to-give-explanation-regarding-utoeya-island-attack-2150/



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/24/oslo-terror-attacks-leaky-police-boat_n_907986.html



> The shooter, 32-year-old Anders Behring Breivik, went about his deadly work undisturbed by police for an hour *after the first reports of gunfire*, other police officials said Sunday, revising a previous estimate of almost 90 minutes.
> Sissel Hammer, the police chief in Hoenefoss, said she understood why critics "think it took too long for the police to come" but said they had moved as quickly as possible.
> 
> *"I ask for understanding of the fact that it takes time to send out a special armed force*," Hammer said in a statement.





> Police sources said there had been much internal police debate over whether the first responders should have approached the island without waiting for the Oslo force.
> 
> Police released a timeline showing that the Hoenefoss police station first received reports of a shooting at 5:27 p.m. (11:27 a.m. EDT). Local officers arrived at a pier across the water from the island at 5:52 p.m., but had to "wait for a suitable boat."
> 
> From 6:09 p.m., when the specially equipped tactical police officers from Oslo arrived at the pier, it took 16 minutes for them to arrive on Utoeya, and only another two minutes before the gunman surrendered without resistance, the police said.



You CANNOT waste time assembling a "special armed force" to respond to these situations! This will be Norways "Columbine" in terms of police tactics IMO. Unfortunately it cost them lives of an order of magnitude greater than Columbine or Virginia Tech.


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## Tez3 (Jul 25, 2011)

Archangel M said:


> http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jul/25/norway-attack-victim-saved-son
> 
> 
> 
> And if you actually read the article I posted instead of the blurbs, you will see that the author makes a few points. One about the wisdom of having to wait 45 minutes for an "armed response team" to arrive (here the first 1-3 cops on location would have been expected to commandeer a boat and GO) and TWO the wisdom of disarming off duty police officers. This man would have had a far greater chance of stopping this (or slowing it down) if he had been armed.




I did read it, don't assume I didn't. I think you and the writer of the article lack the local knowledge needed to make a judgement call, you are judging things by American ways, habits and standards and not non American. I'ts easy for you to criticise sat thousands of miles away especially if you have a pro guns agenda you wish to push. The Norwegians, like ourselves, like all non Americans will do things as we wish and no amount of second guessing by the American gun lobby will change that. You don't know that if even armed to the teeth this off duty policeman would have made any difference at all. The killer had planned this for at least a decade. To lay blame where you don't know it lies is unwise. I think you will find that the vast majority of the deaths were before the alarm was raised.


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## Archangel M (Jul 25, 2011)

Gun lobby??? Americans telling Europeans what to do??? WTF? Get a grip. 

This is a cop talking tactics and lessons learned by our own tragedy. I thought you were LE of a sort. If you don't learn from tragedy you are doomed to repeat it. Putting on blinders and saying "everybody did all they could".."there was nothing else that could be done" is ********. You either buck up and fix what you screwed up or you keep walking down the primrose path. We (LEO's) here in the US were the harshest critics of the tactics used at Columbine and rightly so. We have the responsibility of NOT screwing up like THAT again.

As to what that off-duty officer could have done??? He could have done a HELL of a lot. Like these off-duty LEO's did. 

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,251864,00.html 






http://www.wivb.com/dpp/news/crime/Off-duty-cop-stops-massacre-at-store

Even when off-duty LEO's dont kill the shooters their actions focus the shooters attention on the Cop and not on the unarmed people around him. Most active shooters either kill themselves or (like this guy) surrender when faced with other people with guns or with return fire.

But that point is moot because he was unarmed. Don't go trying to turn this into "American wants Euro citizens running around armed". Im saying that police officers who are not armed are close to useless when THIS happens.


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## Tez3 (Jul 25, 2011)

Archangel M said:


> Gun lobby??? Americans telling Europeans what to do??? WTF? Get a grip.
> 
> This is a cop talking tactics and lessons learned by our own tragedy. I thought you were LE of a sort. If you don't learn from tragedy you are doomed to repeat it. Putting on blinders and saying "everybody did all they could".."there was nothing else that could be done" is ********. You either buck up and fix what you screwed up or you keep walking down the primrose path. We (LEO's) here in the US were the harshest critics of the tactics used at Columbine and rightly so. We have the responsibility of NOT screwing up like THAT again.
> 
> ...





You can only learn from a situation when you know what the facts are, we don't know what they are in this case, you are speculating.

You are also, ref your post telling Europeans it's time they were armed, telling us what to do, don't get a grip, loosen up and wait for the facts. 

Wow guns really get you excited don't they, they also make you attack the poster and not the post. Interesting.


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## CanuckMA (Jul 25, 2011)

Archangel M said:


> You CANNOT waste time assembling a "special armed force" to respond to these situations! This will be Norways "Columbine" in terms of police tactics IMO. Unfortunately it cost them lives of an order of magnitude greater than Columbine or Virginia Tech.



I take that more to mean a force like a SWAT team.

Even in the US, if there is a report of an active shooter in a remote place with a lot of civilians, would your average beat cop go in or wait for SWAT?


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## Archangel M (Jul 25, 2011)

It depends on the training and policy of the dept in question, but on the whole most US LE Agencies are embracing the "Active Shooter Response". Ideally you assemble 4 cops, but if its "on" when you arrive, you either go in alone or with as many cops as reasonably possible. The "cutting edge" in active shooter response is something being called "tactical swarming". Small groups of 2-4 cops respond as fast as they can assemble ad hoc. i.e you and I arrive...we go in. The next two go in (preferably from another direction) when they arrive, and so on. 

During our annual active shooter training, our dept trainer always says. _"Yeah going in alone sucks. It will be a bad day to be a cop, but that is what they pay us for. Ask yourself this..if that was YOUR kid in there and you were a cop would you wait? What if it was MY kid? Well they are all somebodies loved ones and they will all look to YOU to do something. If you don't think you can do it, find another job. Its the only way to stop the killing." 
_
Of course that doesn't mean you just run in guns a blazin. There are tactics you use to locate, close with and engage these shooters. It's a gamble, but this tragedy in Norway is the classic result of "Waiting for SWAT" during an active shooter situation.

Waiting for SWAT while someone is actively killing went the way of the dinosaur in the late 90's. The "timeline of death" is one person dead every 30 seconds a cop waits (on the average). You want the BG attention on YOU (the cops) instead of THEM (the victims). Statistically most BG's kill themselves or surrender when faced with armed response. Those who don't typically bunker down and focus on the police. Saving other peoples lives. It's the only way. Otherwise all you have is a SWAT team arriving to pick up dead bodies.

Heres another example of a lone off-duty (with a gun) stopping a massacre.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpLUT_p7syY&feature=related


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## Mark Jordan (Jul 25, 2011)

There is never a good reason to kill innocent people. Terrorism is defined as the use of violence against civilians in order to influence policy. So, it is never justified and getting innocent people involved is inexcusable.

My sincere prayers to all the victims and their families.


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## Buka (Jul 25, 2011)

Is it true that the longest prison sentence this monster can serve is 21 years?


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## Blade96 (Jul 25, 2011)

*person attacks*

AYEEE, ITS THE MUSLIMS, RUN AWAAAY!

that's what i thought when i saw this more people waiting to pounce on a muslim like a cheetah on a rabbit.

as i said look up mark stroman and the muslim who fought for his life cause his religion said he should forgive him.

Then come back and say muslims are bloodthirsty people.


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## MA-Caver (Jul 25, 2011)

Buka said:


> Is it true that the longest prison sentence this monster can serve is 21 years?


 I was surprised and disgusted as well. If it happened here in the states he'd be headed for a death penalty for sure... even if a state doesn't have it anymore I'm sure they'd repeal it just for this particular lower than pond scum. 

At least the judge refused two of his requests, an open hearing so he could spout out his rant in hopes to encourage more like him to come out of the woodwork and refusal to let him wear a "uniform" which likewise be an attempt to get more like him out of the woodworks. 
As far as I know Norway and it's scandianvian neighbors are among the most peaceful people on the planet. I find it horrible that such violence of that magnatude tore their lives asunder. 
One wonders at the changes this horrific act will effect upon the country, if any. 
At least the death toll was corrected but it's still an appalling number, especially by just ONE guy. 
Read that he used illegal dum-dum bullets which impact and shatter inside the body creating more damage than an average round. How horrible it must've been for the children that were hit. 

If Norway doesn't have a death penalty then they should for this guy. They should just turn him over to the mob instead of sneaking him in and out of backdoors and false cars. He should be tied to an open horse-drawn wagon enroute to the gallows or whipping post, and everyone gets a turn at him. 
Wouldn't be much left by the end of it that's for sure. 

My heart is still hurting from the scope and horror of that attack.


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## Ken Morgan (Jul 25, 2011)

Under special circumstances, a prisoner can be jailed indefinitely.

I kinda think that&#8217;s going to happen.


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## billc (Jul 25, 2011)

A developing story on the Drudge site:

*Police in Norway must get authorization from their chief to gain 
access to firearm... Developing... *


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 26, 2011)

When your country is mostly a low crime zone, armed troops are not usually necessary. I'm not surprised if that's true.
http://dev.prenhall.com/divisions/hss/worldreference/NO/crime.html


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## Cirdan (Jul 26, 2011)

Buka said:


> Is it true that the longest prison sentence this monster can serve is 21 years?



There are two options for a longer sentence. They are rarely used but here I imagine they will.

Crimes against humanity can be sentenced with 30 years.
For particularirly gruesome crimes where there is a risk of repeated offenses, custody can be added to the sentence. This means no chanse of early release and the sentence can be prolonged, in theory to life.

As for the death sentence, the last person executed in Norway was Vidkun Quisling. Most of us would like to keep it that way, even now.


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## Archangel M (Jul 26, 2011)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jul/26/norway-killer-breivik-surprised-stopped



> But Fredrikson said on Tuesday evening it had taken police 47 minutes once they were notified to get counter-terrorism officers to the island and another two minutes on the island until Breivik surrendered.
> 
> "I can't see how this could have gone any faster. *We would do it the same way if we had the same situation again*," he said.



Yikes. I think that these officers need some mind/tactical "expanding" when it comes to active shooter response.


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## Tez3 (Jul 27, 2011)

Archangel M said:


> http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jul/26/norway-killer-breivik-surprised-stopped
> 
> 
> 
> Yikes. I think that these officers need some mind/tactical "expanding" when it comes to active shooter response.



You know the Norwegian landscape and it's people well then? It doesn't matter what you and I think, it's up to the Norwegians to decide what they want and how they deal with things in their country. Your criticisms aren't valid because you don't know the situation, you don't know the countryside or the people so your comments come across as snide and condescending to a people who don't deserve that. You must of read what the Norwegian Prime Minister said how how the country will carry on being open and free, it's a normally peaceful country which doesn't appear to want American style policing, if you don't like that and think you know better I don't think they actually care.


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## Makalakumu (Jul 27, 2011)

Just as a punch is a punch and a kick is a kick, a guy shooting and killing is a guy shooting and killing.  Defending against that is not relativistic in the same way that MMA crosses national boundaries.  When Michael Bisping fights Jason Miller, the fighters aren't going to take techniques out of there repertoire simply because they are American or British.  

When a guy opens fire on a crowd of innocents, you need guns NOW.  It's a flaw in their system and it's worth pointing out.  Acknowledging this doesn't mean that America is the scheisse and we do everything right.  It simply means that their society has taken the best way of defending themselves against that sort of violence away from their citizens.


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## Tez3 (Jul 27, 2011)

Makalakumu said:


> Just as a punch is a punch and a kick is a kick, a guy shooting and killing is a guy shooting and killing. Defending against that is not relativistic in the same way that MMA crosses national boundaries. When Michael Bisping fights Jason Miller, the fighters aren't going to take techniques out of there repertoire simply because they are American or British.
> 
> When a guy opens fire on a crowd of innocents, you need guns NOW. It's a flaw in their system and it's worth pointing out. Acknowledging this doesn't mean that America is the scheisse and we do everything right. It simply means that their society has taken the best way of defending themselves against that sort of violence away from their citizens.



You have to remember though that the last time they had violence like this it was during the German occupation, should they sit there for over seventy years just in case something like this happens? You also have to take into account ther rural nature of places in countries like Norway, you can't have armed police stationed every few miles along the country, it would take at least 45 minutes if something like that happened where I live for police, any police, armed or not to get to us and that's if the weather is good. We have to have an air ambulance here because of the isolation, we have hundreds of miles of moorland and hills to be covered by the emergency services, the Fell rescue teams cover huge distances to rescue walkers. 

Actually your MMA analogy is flawed, Bisping would take techniques out or put others in if he's fighting an American. America has a huge tradition of wrestling that we don't have, we don't have any wrestlers who fight, ours are either BJJ or Judo so as we have often noticed here American MMA fights and fighters do differ from ours in the way they fight, sometimes it's quite noticable. It's a cultural difference.


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## aedrasteia (Jul 27, 2011)

[h=1]The Past Is a Foreign Country[/h]     [h=6]By JO NESBO  Oslo[/h]               A FEW days ago, before the bombing here and the shootings on Utoya  Island, a friend and I were talking about how the joy of being alive  always seems to go hand in hand with the sorrow that things change. Not  even the brightest future can make up for the fact that no roads lead  back to what came before &#8212; to the innocence of childhood or the first  time we fell in love.        


There is no road back to the scent of the Julys when I was young and  leapt from a boulder into the ice-cold meltwater of a Norwegian fjord.  No road back to when I stood, 17 years old with 10 francs in my pocket,  by the harbor in Cannes, France, and watched two grown men in idiotic  white uniforms row a woman and her poodle ashore from a yacht. I  realized then for the first time that the egalitarian society I came  from was the exception and not the rule. No road back to the first time I  looked, wide-eyed, at the guards with automatic weapons surrounding  another country&#8217;s parliament building &#8212; a sight that made me shake my  head with a mixture of resignation and self-satisfaction, thinking, we  don&#8217;t need that sort of thing where I come from.        


For many years, it seemed as if nothing changed in Norway. You could  leave the country for three months, travel the world, through coups  d&#8217;état, assassinations, famines, massacres and tsunamis, and come home  to find that the only new thing in the newspapers was the crossword  puzzle. It was a country where everyone&#8217;s material needs were provided  for. Political consensus was overwhelming, the debates focused primarily  on how to achieve the goals that everyone had already agreed on.  Ideological disagreements arose only when the reality of the rest of the  world began to encroach, when a nation that until the 1970s had  consisted largely of people of the same ethnic and cultural background  had to decide whether its new citizens should be allowed to wear the  hijab and build mosques.        


Still, until Friday, we thought of our country as a virgin &#8212; unsullied  by the ills of society. An exaggeration, of course. And yet.        


In June I was bicycling with the Norwegian prime minister, Jens  Stoltenberg, and a mutual friend through Oslo, setting out for a hike on  a forested mountain slope in this big yet little city. Two bodyguards  followed us, also on bicycles. As we stopped at an intersection for a  red light, a car drove up beside the prime minister. The driver called  out through the open window: &#8220;Jens! There&#8217;s a little boy here who thinks  it would be cool to say hello to you.&#8221;        


The prime minister smiled and shook hands with the little boy in the passenger seat. &#8220;Hi, I&#8217;m Jens.&#8221;   The prime minister wearing his bike helmet; the boy wearing his seat  belt; both of them stopped for a red light. The bodyguards had stopped a  discreet distance behind. Smiling. It&#8217;s an image of safety and mutual  trust. Of the ordinary, idyllic society that we all took for granted.  How could anything go wrong? We had bike helmets and seat belts, and we  were obeying the traffic rules.        


Of course something could go wrong. Something can always go wrong.        

  On Monday night, more than 100,000 citizens gathered in the streets to  mourn the victims of the attack. The image was striking. In Norway,  &#8220;keeping a cool head&#8221; is a national virtue, but &#8220;keeping a warm heart&#8221;  is not. Even for those of us who have an automatic aversion to national  self-glorification, flags, grandiose words and large and expressive  crowds, it makes an indelible impression when people demonstrate that  they do mean something, these ideas and values of the society we have  inherited and more or less take for granted. The gathering said that  Norwegians refuse to let anyone take away our sense of security and  trust. That we refuse to lose this battle against fear.        
  And yet there is no road back to the way it was before.        

Yesterday, on the train, I heard a man shouting in fury. Before Friday,  my automatic response would have been to turn around, maybe even move a  little closer. After all, this could be an interesting disagreement that  might entice me to take one side or the other. But now my automatic  reaction was to look at my 11-year-old daughter to see whether she was  safe, to look for an escape route in case the man was dangerous. I would  like to believe that this new response will become tempered over time.  But I already know that it will never disappear entirely.        


After the bomb went off &#8212; an explosion I felt in my home over a mile  away &#8212; and reports of the shootings out on the island of Utoya began to  come in, I asked my daughter whether she was scared. She replied by  quoting something I had once said to her: &#8220;Yes, but if you&#8217;re not  scared, you can&#8217;t be brave.&#8221;        


So if there is no road back to how things used to be, to the naïve  fearlessness of what was untouched, there is a road forward. To be  brave. To keep on as before. To turn the other cheek as we ask: &#8220;Is that  all you&#8217;ve got?&#8221; To refuse to let fear change the way we build our  society.        


Jo Nesbo is the author of the novel &#8220;The Snowman.&#8221; This article was translated from the Norwegian by Tiina Nunnally. 

offered here, with respect, in honor of all those who were killed and injured, their families and the family of Norway, all people of good will, the MT family and Cirdan and Tez. deep gassho to all


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## billc (Jul 27, 2011)

People are beginning to read the manifesto and it is looking a little less clear how this guy would consider himself a "christian conservative..."...

http://bigjournalism.com/edulis/201...letely-destroys-christian-conservative-label/

From the article:  the actual passages from the manifesto are in the article...

But Breivik&#8217;s actual words completely contradict the &#8220;Conservative Christian&#8221; caricature. Below, you can see how, to save the environment, he wants the world to rid itself of oil consumption. You can see how he wants a one-child policy, government control of private industries, the breakup of Rupert Murdoch&#8217;s media empire, the military support of Russia to prevent a possible U.S. invasion of Europe, and the removal of all U.S. military bases from European soil. Yes, the tea party platform through and through, folks!First of all, many thanks to the anonymous blogger Sooper Mexican, who has unearthed this information from the giant screed and organized it in an easily understandable, concise manner. For those who would quibble that this is an untrustworthy source, his post consists of _direct quotes _from the manifesto with commentary&#8211; I repeat, _direct quotes_. I repeat them here with the blogger&#8217;s emphases.
---------------------------------------

Sounding less conservative (american style) and more...socialist...the guy wanted state control of industries...hmmm...what does that sound like....


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## Makalakumu (Jul 27, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> You have to remember though that the last time they had violence like this it was during the German occupation, should they sit there for over seventy years just in case something like this happens? You also have to take into account ther rural nature of places in countries like Norway, you can't have armed police stationed every few miles along the country, it would take at least 45 minutes if something like that happened where I live for police, any police, armed or not to get to us and that's if the weather is good. We have to have an air ambulance here because of the isolation, we have hundreds of miles of moorland and hills to be covered by the emergency services, the Fell rescue teams cover huge distances to rescue walkers.
> 
> Actually your MMA analogy is flawed, Bisping would take techniques out or put others in if he's fighting an American. America has a huge tradition of wrestling that we don't have, we don't have any wrestlers who fight, ours are either BJJ or Judo so as we have often noticed here American MMA fights and fighters do differ from ours in the way they fight, sometimes it's quite noticable. It's a cultural difference.



OK, good point about Bisping.  The only thing that I can say is that he has to add techniques, not take them away, but anyway...

Guns and shooting.  I think it's awesome that Norway has very little violence.  I'd love it if every country could be like that.  I can hardly imagine this and I know that it slants my point of view.  What about hunters though?  Certainly, someone has got to have a reason to own a firearm?  Even if no one hunts, how could anyone expect a team to be mobilized and stop an active shooter?  It's not like Norway is on the other side of the galaxy and just doesn't know that these kinds of things could happen.  It's a flawed strategy, peaceful country or not.  Perhaps it would be akin to Bisping not practicing wrestling because there are no wrestlers around and then suddenly finding himself fighting a wrestler.  The culture can be the excuse for the results, but it doesn't have to be the excuse to repeat those results.  KWIM?


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## Archangel M (Jul 27, 2011)

Any professional law enforcement organization should have been looking at incidents like Columbine, Beslan, Mumbai, etc. and PLANNED for it. I've been in briefings analyzing Mumbai and many sources claim the city was targeted due to the Mumbai police being unarmed. The terrorists knew that they would be able to run unopposed for a long time before a response could be mounted. LE having guns and a plan to act immediately is whats required. Even if the plan sucks, cops with guns NOW is a huge step forward. 

"IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN HERE" is engraved on too many tombstones. Say whatever you want about how long it would take LE to get to your location. The fact HERE is that there were local LEO's waiting onshore for the "armed response unit" to arrive. That has been proven to be nothing but an opportunity for the BG to kill more people. And on top of that the off-duty LEO on the island was not allowed to be armed and while he did a heroic act by dying to save his son, he may very well have been able to stop the deaths of many if he had the tools to do something about it.


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## Archangel M (Jul 27, 2011)

If your police agencies stand by the "there is nothing we could have done better"..."we would do exactly the same thing"...party line after a tragedy like this you need to demand a more professional police force.

If this were to happen here in my jurisdiction we would most likely still have a blood bath, hopefully it would be smaller than it would have been with antiquated tactics. Afterward we would address what we screwed up and try to prepare for it.


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## granfire (Jul 27, 2011)

Archangel M said:


> Any professional law enforcement organization should have been looking at incidents like Columbine, Beslan, Mumbai, etc. and PLANNED for it.
> 
> "IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN HERE" is engraved on too many tombstones. Say whatever you want about how long it would take LE to get to your location. The fact HERE is that there were local LEO's waiting onshore for the "armed response unit" to arrive. That has been proven to be nothing but an opportunity for the BG to kill more people. And on top of that the off-duty LEO on the island was not allowed to be armed and while he did a heroic act by dying to save his son, he may very well have been able to stop the deaths of many if he had the tools to do something about it.



you CAN'T plan for it.
If you do you have already lost to terror.

You have a limited amount of first responders to cover a certain area...not to mention you had 2 attacks....one has to assume many of the island's EMTs were on their way to Oslo....
(when they had the crash at the Ramstein airshow several decades ago, my dad's racing club had a meet...all over sudden their ambulance peeled out, without a word of notice....a good 45 minutes normal driving away from the air strip)


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## Archangel M (Jul 27, 2011)

granfire said:


> you CAN'T plan for it.
> If you do you have already lost to terror.



What!!! I think I have a tad more operational experience in LE planning and that is (to be blunt) crap. If you can identify a possible threat you plan for it. I've been to 3 different training meetings involving planning for a Mumbai type threat within the last year alone. Thats what we get paid for. Active shooters have been becoming more and more common in Europe lately. Germany has had a few I can remember off the top of my head. In this day and age even thinking about what you would do if some Norweigan hunter took his rifle to the village square should be on a police leaders list of events to possibly deal with. Im pulling no punches here...saying that "this was/is the best we could have done and will do the same the next time" is pathetic coming from an LE organization.


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## Archangel M (Jul 27, 2011)

To be clear I am NOT condemning individual officers. Cops follow their training and the regulations set by their superiors. This is an issue for police supervision and leadership to address for future planning and training.

It's strange that I find myself being the one to criticize LE procedure here while others are trying to defend it. Its a mad...mad...mad world.


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## elder999 (Jul 27, 2011)

granfire said:


> you CAN'T plan for it.
> If you do you have already lost to terror.
> 
> You have a limited amount of first responders to cover a certain area...not to mention you had 2 attacks....one has to assume many of the island's EMTs were on their way to Oslo....
> (when they had the crash at the Ramstein airshow several decades ago, my dad's racing club had a meet...all over sudden their ambulance peeled out, without a word of notice....a good 45 minutes normal driving away from the air strip)



Sure you can.  I spent the better part of a decade training and planning, and conducting training and planning for others, to prepare for an event that has yet to occur at all..........


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## MaxiMe (Jul 27, 2011)

"Failure to plan = Planning to fail"


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## Archangel M (Jul 27, 2011)

Many armchair tacticians think that "planning" means having transport boats on every Norwegian lake now and Cops that have tanks in every village. That's pure ignorance.


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## Makalakumu (Jul 27, 2011)

elder999 said:


> Sure you can.  I spent the better part of a decade training and planning, and conducting training and planning for others, to prepare for an event that has yet to occur at all..........



Let us hope it stays that way...


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## elder999 (Jul 27, 2011)

Makalakumu said:


> Let us hope it stays that way...



Not a question of "if," but "when," sadly.....soon, I fear.


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## Archangel M (Jul 27, 2011)

Slight tangent, but I just read this interesting column written by a Pakistani writer (_Mr. I.A. Rehman is a writer and activist living in Pakistan. He is the director of the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan Secretariat._) his opinions on this tragedy, Islam, Pakistan and other topics is kind of interesting.

http://www.dawn.com/2011/07/28/are-we-innocent.html


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## billc (Jul 27, 2011)

Good article Archangel M. just wish he would stop using "right wing."  Left wing would be more accurate.


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## Tez3 (Jul 28, 2011)

Every time there's a shooting somewhere we get posts saying it proves that all citizens should carry guns and that the police are always in the wrong.
Everytime someone says something is right wing and that something is bad Billcihak says it's not right wing it's left wing.
Both are predictable, wrong and boring.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 28, 2011)

Somehow, I get the feeling that what's being advocated for is to have Judge Dredd take over for Andy and Barney in Mayberry.
I kinda of get the feeling that wouldn't be seen as a win.


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## Tez3 (Jul 28, 2011)

I'm sure the advice about arming police etc is made in good faith but I'm not sure if people are aware how patronising it comes over to non Americans? It ruffles feathers and comes across as sounding superior. We get that Americans are passionate about gun ownership and having their police armed to the gills but  one shouldn't assume that they are bumpkins or naive about weapons in other countries. 
The simple fact is that we don't have any facts about the hows, whys and wherefores of the police response in Norway. We do know that the killer timed the massacre with the bomb to draw as many police and rescue workers into Oslo, remember the authorities didn't know if there was one bomb or many, they had to react to what information they had at the time. If the off duty policeman was allowed to carry a weapon would he have worn it? We don't know, we don't know how many local police officers there were local to the island. There is simple so much we don't know so makingsnap judgements and saying the police should review all their procedures in light of this one totally unexpected, totally out of the Norwegian character events is assuming far too much.
The Norwegians will investigate, will assess and will judge* their* police procedures, it's not up to us to make judgements based on what happens in our countries. At the moment they say they would do the same again, we can't gainsay them, we don't know the facts but I guess that doesn't stop people pushing their own agendas anyway.

Billicihak, if the Norwegians say that the Norwegian  killer is right wing are you going to tell them they are all wrong? I suggest you post on the Norwegian newspapers site, they speak good English, and peddle your 'left is bad' schtick. I would love to read the responses.


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## Archangel M (Jul 28, 2011)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Somehow, I get the feeling that what's being advocated for is to have Judge Dredd take over for Andy and Barney in Mayberry.
> I kinda of get the feeling that wouldn't be seen as a win.



No, whats being advocated is that you don't face TODAY'S threat with YESTERDAYS tactics. When an active shooter is killing people, Barney Fife has to go in and try and stop him. Not wait for a tactical unit to respond. BTW, when did cops/off-duty cops being allowed (and/or *trusted*) to carry firearms become a Judge Dredd scenario?


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## Tez3 (Jul 28, 2011)

Archangel M said:


> No, whats being advocated is that you don't face TODAY'S threat with YESTERDAYS tactics. When an active shooter is killing people, Barney Fife has to go in and try and stop him. BTW, when did cops/off-duty cops being allowed (and/or *trusted*) to carry firearms become a Judge Dredd scenario?



We don't actually know whether police officrs off duty are allowed to carry, in fact we know little about policing in Norway so to make any judgement is premature. We also don't know what tactics the police there use or what threats they are prepared for. What we do know is that the killer set off a large amount of explosives to make sure all police resources were focused on Oslo, perhpas the police were prepared and that is literally the fastest they could get there, that remains to be seen. Whether the police are trusted or not is up to the people there, we'd be better keeping our noses out, this plethora of advice on how to handle events is something that non Americans find intrusive, the constant need to prove that arming the populace and the  police is the right thing to do, sure it's fine for the States but if Europeans decide they don't want the police and/or citizens armed what's it to you?
We know now there is a threat today, last week we didn't know. There's no point in jumping on the bandwagon of disapproval for Norwegian police until the investigations are finished. Everyone has 20/20 hindsight and can be scathing but we have to look at things at they occurred last week as they happened not could have been done if it were America, a country more used to mass shooting than Norway who's last mass shootings were by the Nazis during the occupation of their country. An occupation I might add that was gallently and bravely resisted by the Norwegians.....armed Norwegians.


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## billc (Jul 28, 2011)

Well, just to ask, if police in Norway are not allowed to carry on duty, why would they carry off duty?


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## Tez3 (Jul 30, 2011)

billcihak said:


> Well, just to ask, if police in Norway are not allowed to carry on duty, why would they carry off duty?



You missed the bit then that said they carry weapons in their vehicles to use when and if needed then? It's a system that works, it's what we do.


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## granfire (Jul 30, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> You missed the bit then that said they carry weapons in their vehicles to use when and if needed then? It's a system that works, it's what we do.



It kind of reminds me of an episode of the Andy Griffith show where Andy explains to barney why they never really needed tear gas in Mayberry....

It just a different situation from let's say Germany: they carry big pistols and have a submachine gun handy...but then they have been in Hollywood worthy shootouts in the 1970s and lost a few people then during the hay day of the RAF terrorists (not the royal airforce...)


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## Tez3 (Jul 30, 2011)

granfire said:


> It kind of reminds me of an episode of the Andy Griffith show where Andy explains to barney why they never really needed tear gas in Mayberry....
> 
> It just a different situation from let's say Germany: they carry big pistols and have a submachine gun handy...but then they have been in Hollywood worthy shootouts in the 1970s and lost a few people then during the hay day of the RAF terrorists (not the royal airforce...)




I was living in Germany when the Red army Faction was going strong, we were warned that if we were stopped by the German police we were to say were in the Royal Air Force not the RAF! The IRA were also in German and the Netherlands at the time, trying to target British military personnel and sites, 
 They killed an Royal Air Force corporal, Maheshkumar Islania and his 6-month-old daughter in October 1989, two gunmen opened fire on his car in a snack-bar parking lot outside RAF Wildenrath near the West Germany/Netherlands border. We were at RAF Laarbruch a few miles to the north of Wildenrath. In May 1990, the IRA shot two Australian tourists in Roermond, Netherlands after they mistook them for British soldiers. The 24-year-old lawyers were ambushed in the main square as they returned to their car after a meal in a restaurant.


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## granfire (Jul 30, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> I was living in Germany when the Red army Faction was going strong, we were warned that if we were stopped by the German police we were to say were in the Royal Air Force not the RAF! The IRA were also in German and the Netherlands at the time, trying to target British military personnel and sites,
> They killed an Royal Air Force corporal, Maheshkumar Islania and his 6-month-old daughter in October 1989, two gunmen opened fire on his car in a snack-bar parking lot outside RAF Wildenrath near the West Germany/Netherlands border. We were at RAF Laarbruch a few miles to the north of Wildenrath. In May 1990, the IRA shot two Australian tourists in Roermond, Netherlands after they mistook them for British soldiers. The 24-year-old lawyers were ambushed in the main square as they returned to their car after a meal in a restaurant.


that is relatively recent!

My mom was pulled over a lot...she had chosen BLOND as her hair color....  

Which also reminds me that procedure in police matters varies vastly from country to country. 
While German cops are heavily armed they are generally tight holstered. Also the way they pull you over is different. 
They do share experience internationally, but where the rubber meets the road it's a very local matter. (and it's important to know when you travel) but I don't think one can judge it from the outside and say 'that is wrong' 

While the officials _say _right now they are satisfied with the responding teams, you _know _everything will be put under the microscope and examined in detail. I am pretty sure changes will happen. Incidents of this magnitude always change things (and sadly never for the better).
Another bit of innocence lost....


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## Archangel M (Jul 30, 2011)

I don't know if I buy the "innocence lost" excuse whan it comes to preparation. I see it bandied about all too often and see it as a head in sand rationalization for just "doing what we always did".


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## Makalakumu (Jul 30, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> I'm sure the advice about arming police etc is made in good faith but I'm not sure if people are aware how patronising it comes over to non Americans? It ruffles feathers and comes across as sounding superior. We get that Americans are passionate about gun ownership and having their police armed to the gills but  one shouldn't assume that they are bumpkins or naive about weapons in other countries.
> The simple fact is that we don't have any facts about the hows, whys and wherefores of the police response in Norway. We do know that the killer timed the massacre with the bomb to draw as many police and rescue workers into Oslo, remember the authorities didn't know if there was one bomb or many, they had to react to what information they had at the time. If the off duty policeman was allowed to carry a weapon would he have worn it? We don't know, we don't know how many local police officers there were local to the island. There is simple so much we don't know so makingsnap judgements and saying the police should review all their procedures in light of this one totally unexpected, totally out of the Norwegian character events is assuming far too much.
> The Norwegians will investigate, will assess and will judge* their* police procedures, it's not up to us to make judgements based on what happens in our countries. At the moment they say they would do the same again, we can't gainsay them, we don't know the facts but I guess that doesn't stop people pushing their own agendas anyway.
> 
> Billicihak, if the Norwegians say that the Norwegian  killer is right wing are you going to tell them they are all wrong? I suggest you post on the Norwegian newspapers site, they speak good English, and peddle your 'left is bad' schtick. I would love to read the responses.



If Norwegians choose to give their police greater access to firearms after this incident, it won't be because a bunch of Americans twisted arms and tried to make everyone think that the way they do things is the only right way.  If they choose to go that route it will be because its a better way of handling active shooters...and that has nothing to do with America at all.  

I'm curious about Finland.  They have had active shooters in their schools and I wonder how their society dealt with the issue?


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## Archangel M (Jul 30, 2011)

Exactly Makala. 

Debating the issue of "would the off-duty have carried if he was allowed too" is kind of moot when he wasn't ever allowed the option in the first place. And smacks as rationalization after the fact.

As to American LE being "armed to the gills"...by and large FAR MORE European police officers (that I have seen photos of at least) can be seen wandering their posts carrying submachine guns. Something that is rare in the US (and would be complained about) except in special circumstances. Most of US American LEO's have weapons AVAILABLE to us (rifles in our vehicles for example) and the freedom to deploy them when WE deem necessary...thats a big difference.


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## Tez3 (Jul 30, 2011)

Archangel M said:


> Exactly Makala.
> 
> Debating the issue of "would the off-duty have carried if he was allowed too" is kind of moot when he wasn't ever allowed the option in the first place. And smacks as rationalization after the fact.
> 
> *As to American LE being "armed to the gills"...by and large FAR MORE European police officers (that I have seen photos of at least) can be seen wandering their posts carrying submachine guns*. Something that is rare in the US (and would be complained about) except in special circumstances. Most of US American LEO's have weapons AVAILABLE to us (rifles in our vehicles for example) and the freedom to deploy them when WE deem necessary...thats a big difference.



Well that puts a lie to your comment about Europeans police not being armed!

According to what I posted the Norwegian police also have weapons in their vehicles and the freedom to deploy when needed, it did say they were to try to get permission but this was overridden by the need to deploy them when needed, as decided by the police officers themselves. So very little different from you then!

The thing is that we don't know all the circumstances so criticism of police actions are pointless, basing criticism on how we would deal with situations on home ground when it's ground in fact that's alien to us is just criticising to make a noise.


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