# Tiger/Big Cat Styles



## fenglong (May 23, 2012)

I recently became interested in the big cat styles, especially the tiger styles and would love it if you just throw in whatever interesting resources you got about this topic, videos, text, whatever.

tyvm


----------



## clfsean (May 23, 2012)

Let me Google that for you... 

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=hung+ga


----------



## fenglong (May 23, 2012)

just found this one. looks somewhat like a handicapped tiger to me, no idea where the roots of it are...
(by the way there are actual applications at the end of this video)


----------



## clfsean (May 23, 2012)

fenglong said:


> just found this one. looks somewhat like a handicapped tiger to me, no idea where the roots of it are...
> (by the way there are actual applications at the end of this video)



This is... so not it. 

Try the link I gave you ... Hung Ga.


----------



## fenglong (May 23, 2012)

thanks, but there is no "it". i have checked your link and hundreds of others already, im just greedy for knowledge, thats all


----------



## clfsean (May 23, 2012)

fenglong said:


> thanks, but there is no "it". i have checked your link and hundreds of others already, im just greedy for knowledge, thats all




Well... yeah there are certain "it" things. That video was decidedly & definitely not it. Hung Ga is about as close to it as you will get in TCMA.


----------



## Flying Crane (May 23, 2012)

clfsean said:


> Well... yeah there are certain "it" things. That video was decidedly & definitely not it. Hung Ga is about as close to it as you will get in TCMA.



I have heard of a Shantung Black Tiger system, tho I know nothing about it.  I think Tak Wah Eng and Paul Koh in NY City practice this system and I belive Paul has written a book about it.  I've not read the book, don't know anything about it.

I've not heard of a Panther/Leopard system, nor any other big cat system.  I've mostly only heard of these things in the context of being a portion of a larger system, like Sean mentioned Hung Gar.

In other places there are the five animals, but for the most part all I've heard of with this is as a portion of a larger system, there being a Five-Animals form within the system that is meant to accomplish a certain aspect of the training, one part of the big picture.  Even my system of Tibetan White Crane has a Five Animals form as part of the curriculum.  But there is no complete animal system for each of the five animals, at least in this kind of context.

I don't know of any system that is completely "Five-Animals".  If it exists, I just don't know anything about it.  I've heard this mentioned in reference to what Ark Wong was teaching in LA, but I just don't know anything about it.


----------



## clfsean (May 23, 2012)

Flying Crane said:


> I have heard of a Shantung Black Tiger system, tho I know nothing about it.  I think Tak Wah Eng and Paul Koh in NY City practice this system and I belive Paul has written a book about it.  I've not read the book, don't know anything about it.
> 
> I've not heard of a Panther/Leopard system, nor any other big cat system.  I've mostly only heard of these things in the context of being a portion of a larger system, like Sean mentioned Hung Gar.
> 
> ...



Th Shandong Black Tiger is a hybrid system from what I hear. I don't know that much about it.

As far as Panther/Leopard, your biggest examples are CLF and Bak Mei that I'm aware of, and practice. Otherwise, FC is the correct. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD. Please excuse typos &amp; brevity of posts.


----------



## Flying Crane (May 23, 2012)

There are some other systems that use Tiger in their names, but I do not believe they are actual tiger systems.  A couple of kenpo derived systems come to mind, there is a White Tiger Kenpo in the Chicago area, under the direction of Tom Ammiano, his student posts here sometimes under the name ZREX.  Mr. Ammiano is in the Ed Parker kenpo lineage thru McSweeny, he changed the system to meet his own designs.  I do not know where the name Tiger comes from in this context.

There is also Bok Fu Do which means White Tiger Way, out here on the West Coast San Francisco area, under Richard Lee, an offshoot of Tracy kenpo, also derived from Ed Parker's lineage.  Mr. Lee also changed and complied things into his kenpo to create his own method.  Again I do not know where the Bok Fu, White Tiger, in the name of his system comes from.  His student sometimes posts here under the name JDINCA. 

These are both kenpo methods that can ultimately be traced back to Ed Parker.  They may have some kung fu elements adopted into them but I do not believe you could consider them to be true Tiger Methods.  I only point these out to preemptively eliminate confusion that may arise if you stumble onto these.


----------



## Xue Sheng (May 23, 2012)

Fu Jow Pai
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fu_Jow_Pai

Hei hu quan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hei_hu_quan

Leopard Kung Fu
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopard_Kung_Fu

Xingyiquan, 12 Animals, Tiger (the only one of the 12 Animals I know)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xingyiquan#Animal_forms


----------



## Flying Crane (May 23, 2012)

Xue Sheng said:


> Fu Jow Pai
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fu_Jow_Pai
> 
> Hei hu quan
> ...



I don't often like these wikipedia entries, they are so short and so vague in description that it makes me think whomever wrote them might be just kinda making it up, writing about what he thinks it ought to be in some fantasy world, or else maybe if there was an actual system it has gone extinct so nobody really knows anything about it except some very general and generic information.

The comments in the Leopard section that I find particularly amusing is the postulation that leopard is a "midway point" between tiger and crane styles.  In my mind, that is just a bizzare statement for that author to make, it's just completely unsupportable and is even a weird idea to begin with.  If it exists as a distinct system, why would it not be able to stand on its own rather than have to be seen as somehow a compromise between two other systems?  How is the author defining tiger, and crane?  I know there are at least a couple of very different and distinct crane systems, so to which is he referring?  Or is it something completely different, another Crane method altogether?  There is no clearly defined frame of reference for such a statement.   I think those kinds of statements just illustrate that the author doesn't know much at all.


----------



## Xue Sheng (May 23, 2012)

It is what it is, look at it as a beginning to researching a topic.

The only one I have any experience with is the Xingyiquan Tiger and the only other one I have talked to anyone about is Fu Jow Pai. I believe that was the style that my sifu was talking about when he was telling me about a friend of my Sigung who was once a great martial artist but in his old age was crippled due to training to much external. And a friend of mine who trained it in NYC when he was in college who was intrigued by the focus of the attacks (what can I say, he was in Med school) but no so happy with the hand conditioning (and he is now a doctor). So today he is a Wing Chun guy


----------



## Gentle Fist (May 23, 2012)

I study Nick Cerio's Kenpo which is mainly of Japanese influence as it stands today. 

Interestingly enough Professor Cerio's Kenpo started off as being mostly Chinese, but then as his studies shifted towards the Japanese arts; it became more and more Japanese based up until his death in 1998.  The black belt kenpo forms are all still heavily Chinese in flavor and all have "Big Cat" names.  Circle of the Tiger, Circle of the Leopard, and the final form of Circle of the Panther.  Even though Cerio changed most of his style to fit Japanese culture he left the black forms alone and kept their "Chinese Influenced" names as is.


----------



## WC_lun (May 23, 2012)

I've met a few guys in tournaments that did Black Tiger and Leopard systems.  Intersting stuff.  The only practical experience I myself have is with Tiger and Leopard as part of a larger animal based system.

I got to say that one of the things that kinda annoy me about the Kenpo systems that use Tiger as part of thier name is the footwork is almost entirely from Japanese systems.  Part of the strength of CMA tiger systems is the low stances, designed to drag an opponent off thier base.  The Japanese footwork doesn't work the same way.  So the hands are saying, "Hey! I'm a Tiger!!" while the feet say, "Umm, maybe I'm a crane..."  Not a big deal or anything, just a little peeve of mine.


----------



## fenglong (May 24, 2012)

easy on the abbreviations please, with all the different styles, languages and transcription methods it is difficult to figure some of the abbreviations sometimes. so what was FC?


----------



## clfsean (May 24, 2012)

fenglong said:


> easy on the abbreviations please, with all the different styles, languages and transcription methods it is difficult to figure some of the abbreviations sometimes. so what was FC?




FC == Flying Crane...


----------



## fenglong (May 24, 2012)

@Flying Crane 
thats a big problem you have everywhere humans are involved. some many stuff up, some share their blurred perception of the "truth". 
thats why i stopped dedicating myself to a single master and do a lot of own research.

@WC_lun
tiger systems with japanese footwork? are you using the word kenpo for exclusively japanese MA or like the japanese do it for MA in general? just because they are deep stances it doesnt mean they are japanese, so what makes you think so?
from what i learned about tiger styles is that the earliest ones on which most others seem to base on relate to the black tiger style of shaolin and the hung gar, which itself relates to tibetan boxing brough over by a tibetan monk.


----------



## clfsean (May 24, 2012)

fenglong said:


> hung gar, which itself relates to tibetan boxing brough over by a tibetan monk.



Ummm... where did you get that?? That's so not correct. 

Hung Kuen is pure Southern Shaolin & like most Southern Shaolin styles is a short to mid range style. Wong Fei Hung was "educated" by one of the Wong (no relation) brothers from Lion's Roar & incorporate some of their long arm techniques & theories into his family's Hung Kuen but that's it. Hung Kuen isn't Tibetan... not even close. Look at some of the village styles


----------



## fenglong (May 24, 2012)

everyone who has done some history research for a while knows there is no such thing as "pure" styles. everything gets influenced, inspired or is based on something else, usually all of that.
also, i never said hung gar was tibetan, i said it relates to it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lama_(martial_art)#Tibetan_or_Chinese_Martial_Art.3F


----------



## clfsean (May 24, 2012)

fenglong said:


> everyone who has done some history research for a while knows there is no such thing as "pure" styles. everything gets influenced, inspired or is based on something else, usually all of that.
> also, i never said hung gar was tibetan, i said it relates to it.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lama_%28martial_art%29#Tibetan_or_Chinese_Martial_Art.3F



I'm quite familiar with the process of researching, especially TCMAs.

Hung Ga is not "related" to Tibetan styles. It was influenced with certain techniques & theories, but it is stand alone Chinese. Lama Pai, Bak Hok, Hop Ga... those are related to Tibetan Lion's Roar. They are children of it. Hung Kuen borrowed from it. That no way makes it "related" to it that it would me if I borrowed your lawn mower. 

Quoting Wiki doesn't do much for serious support to your position by the way.


----------



## Flying Crane (May 24, 2012)

clfsean said:


> I'm quite familiar with the process of researching, especially TCMAs.
> 
> Hung Ga is not "related" to Tibetan styles. It was influenced with certain techniques & theories, but it is stand alone Chinese. Lama Pai, Bak Hok, Hop Ga... those are related to Tibetan Lion's Roar. They are children of it. Hung Kuen borrowed from it. That no way makes it "related" to it that it would me if I borrowed your lawn mower.
> 
> Quoting Wiki doesn't do much for serious support to your position by the way.



I would also go so far as to say that the modern Tibetan systems are really Chinese.  They were brought into China a long time ago and have become their own thing in the modern day.  Thay are not the same as what they were when the Tibetan Lion's Roar was first developed back in the 1400s.  

Yes, Wong Fei Hung did learn some aspects of the Tibetan method and incorporated that into the Tiger/Crane form.  Those long swinging arms are from the Tibetan method.  however, there is a lot of other stuff in that form, in the Crane techniques, that I do not recognize from the Tibetan method, and neither do I recognize them from what little I've seen of the Fukienese method.  I just don't know where it came from, if it was influenced by some other crane method or if Hung Gar sort of had its own interpretation of crane.  One big example of what I'm talking about is the single leg spreading wings stance, with the arms splitting out sideways to clear.  I've never seen that move in any of our stuff, and it sort of doesn't follow our fundamental principles.  It may be an effective technique, but structurally it doesn't quite match how we do things in the Tibetan method.

I don't believe any of the kenpo methods (most of which trace lineage back to Ed Parker or WIlliam CHow or James Mitose in Hawaii) can be considered tiger, even when they name their forms tiger and stuff.  There's more to being a true animal system then simply having some tiger claw techniques in the curriculum.  It's more than just hand techniques, it's more than just stances, there is an underlying fundamental method and set of principles that must drive the entire system, or else it's just a collection of stuff that may or may not work on their own merits.  At least that's how my system is structured, and I'm making the assumption that a Chinese tiger system would work that way too.


----------



## Flying Crane (May 24, 2012)

fenglong said:


> @Flying Crane
> thats a big problem you have everywhere humans are involved. some many stuff up, some share their blurred perception of the "truth".
> thats why i stopped dedicating myself to a single master and do a lot of own research.



well, the only way to really get to this stuff is to find a teacher who is skilled and knowledgeable about the system.  Doing some research, without workind solidly with a good instructor, will not get you there.  It will only give you a very superficial understanding of what things are, probably so superficial that you develop a lot of misperceptions.

There are a lot of people who present themselves as skilled and knowledgeable, when in truth they are not, and they have largely made it up.  They count on people not being well educated on the topic, and not being able to see thru the smokescreen.  It's not easy to find the right teacher.


----------



## clfsean (May 24, 2012)

Flying Crane said:


> I would also go so far as to say that the modern Tibetan systems are really Chinese.  They were brought into China a long time ago and have become their own thing in the modern day.  Thay are not the same as what they were when the Tibetan Lion's Roar was first developed back in the 1400s.



True enough if looking at it from the vassal/tribute state of China that Tibet had been for years. 



Flying Crane said:


> Yes, Wong Fei Hung did learn some aspects of the Tibetan method and incorporated that into the Tiger/Crane form.  Those long swinging arms are from the Tibetan method.  however, there is a lot of other stuff in that form, in the Crane techniques, that I do not recognize from the Tibetan method, and neither do I recognize them from what little I've seen of the Fukienese method.  I just don't know where it came from, if it was influenced by some other crane method or if Hung Gar sort of had its own interpretation of crane.  One big example of what I'm talking about is the single leg spreading wings stance, with the arms splitting out sideways to clear.  I've never seen that move in any of our stuff, and it sort of doesn't follow our fundamental principles.  It may be an effective technique, but structurally it doesn't quite match how we do things in the Tibetan method.



That single legged posture almost reminds me of what/how I've seen Okinawans play in their Hakutsuru kata. Lends itself to Fujian & Hung Hei Goon was supposedly a tea merchant from Fujian. Speculative at best I know, but it kinda almost fits. 



Flying Crane said:


> I don't believe any of the kenpo methods (most of which trace lineage back to Ed Parker or WIlliam CHow or James Mitose in Hawaii) can be considered tiger, even when they name their forms tiger and stuff.  There's more to being a true animal system then simply having some tiger claw techniques in the curriculum.  It's more than just hand techniques, it's more than just stances, there is an underlying fundamental method and set of principles that must drive the entire system, or else it's just a collection of stuff that may or may not work on their own merits.  At least that's how my system is structured, and I'm making the assumption that a Chinese tiger system would work that way too.



I find very little in kenpo related to CMA except for brief glimpeses & personal recollections from CMA seniors I've heard things from. Not AY Wong's family branch either... 

Like you, I've tried to get it across to people for a while that just because you put your hand in a tiger claw or leopard paw position, doesn't mean that's what you're doing. People who haven't come up in it, don't get it.


----------



## Xue Sheng (May 24, 2012)

ok so you wander in to the CMA section and start telling FC he needs to research 

And then correct CLF about Hung Ga and recommed research.......:lfao:


----------



## Flying Crane (May 24, 2012)

Xue Sheng said:


> It is what it is, look at it as a beginning to researching a topic.



sure, research needs to start somewhere.  I'm just saying, sometimes we can recognize when a source just isn't telling us much.  Don't take everything out there at face value.


----------



## Flying Crane (May 24, 2012)

clfsean said:


> True enough if looking at it from the vassal/tribute state of China that Tibet had been for years.



yeah and this issue is in the mix as well, and recognizing that China is actually a big group of people from many different ethnic backgrounds, so what, really, is "Chinese" anyway?



> That single legged posture almost reminds me of what/how I've seen Okinawans play in their Hakutsuru kata. Lends itself to Fujian & Hung Hei Goon was supposedly a tea merchant from Fujian. Speculative at best I know, but it kinda almost fits.



now that I think about it, I recall seeing an Okinawan folk dance years ago, and there was a movement that was strikingly similar



> I find very little in kenpo related to CMA except for brief glimpeses & personal recollections from CMA seniors I've heard things from. Not AY Wong's family branch either...
> 
> Like you, I've tried to get it across to people for a while that just because you put your hand in a tiger claw or leopard paw position, doesn't mean that's what you're doing. People who haven't come up in it, don't get it.



complete agreement


----------



## clfsean (May 24, 2012)

Flying Crane said:


> yeah and this issue is in the mix as well, and recognizing that China is actually a big group of people from many different ethnic backgrounds, so what, really, is "Chinese" anyway?



True enough... Language? Cultural ties? Money? Geo-political? All things apply to that one!!! 



Flying Crane said:


> now that I think about it, I recall seeing an Okinawan folk dance years ago, and there was a movement that was strikingly similar



Yep & not just in Karate Kid II either. 



Flying Crane said:


> complete agreement



Boffo...


----------



## Xue Sheng (May 24, 2012)

clfsean said:


> True enough... Language?



Well there are Mandarin speakers, and then there is everyone else....even Devil talkers.


As to what is considered Chinese, generally in China it is anyone considerd Han, all others are minorities


----------



## Flying Crane (May 24, 2012)

I just started a new thread, discussion about what makes something an animal style.


----------



## Xue Sheng (May 24, 2012)

Flying Crane said:


> sure, research needs to start somewhere.  I'm just saying, sometimes we can recognize when a source just isn't telling us much.  Don't take everything out there at face value.



No no no...taiji was started by Zhang Sanfeng in the Yuan Dynasty ... or was it the Sung Dynasty.... oh wait it was the Ming Dynasty...or any of the other 8 or so times he was said to have lived....ummm well....he a Shaolin warrior...or a Taoist Alchemist or was it a monk....no wait a Confucian...and aaa well... he created it after he watched snake and a bird fight...oh wait no.....it was a cave...yeah that's it..he was led by a mysterious light into a cave where he found 2 golden snakes and a book that gave him the idea for taijiquan...err ummm he took it from the Yellow Emperor and Lao Tzu....oh wait never mind.... Zhang Sanfeng invented the martial art that martial art that was practiced by Wang Zhengnan which was most decidedly not Taijiquan....ahhh the hell with it....Chen Wangting invented it..

Now then....that's cleared up....lets move on to Xingyiquan that was invented by Yue Fei...no wait I meant to say Dai Long Bang...... and we all know Wing Chun comes from.....



Sorry could not resist


----------



## Flying Crane (May 24, 2012)

Xue Sheng said:


> No no no...taiji was started by Zhang Sanfeng in the Yuan Dynasty ... or was it the Sung Dynasty.... oh wait it was the Ming Dynasty...or any of the other 8 or so times he was said to have lived....ummm well....he a Shaolin warrior...or a Taoist Alchemist or was it a monk....no wait a Confucian...and aaa well... he created it after he watched snake and a bird fight...oh wait no.....it was a cave...yeah that's it..he was led by a mysterious light into a cave where he found 2 golden snakes and a book that gave him the idea for taijiquan...err ummm he took it from the Yellow Emperor and Lao Tzu....oh wait never mind.... Zhang Sanfeng invented the martial art that martial art that was practiced by Wang Zhengnan which was most decidedly not Taijiquan....ahhh the hell with it....Chen Wangting invented it..
> 
> Now then....that's cleared up....lets move on to Xingyiquan that was invented by Yue Fei...no wait I meant to say Dai Long Bang...... and we all know Wing Chun comes from.....
> 
> ...




YES to all of it!


----------



## kfman (Jun 2, 2012)

The Five Family Style of Ark Y. Wong has the major 5 animals - Snake, Tiger, Dragon, Leopard and Crane (learned in that order). There are 5 forms for each. I know 3 tiger forms plus the Tiger-Crane set (slightly different than mainstream Hung-Gar). Besides clawing and hitting, a major aspect of the tiger is chin-na. We may not move exactly like a cat but we embody its spirit.

By the way - I have 33 years experience, certified to teach and have free classes in Los Angeles three times a week. It's free because I would have to pay the park $50 an hour otherwise and I get a big indoor space to practice. Send me message if interested.


----------



## Chris Parker (Jun 3, 2012)

fenglong said:


> @Flying Crane
> thats a big problem you have everywhere humans are involved. some many stuff up, some share their blurred perception of the "truth".
> thats why i stopped dedicating myself to a single master and do a lot of own research.



Perchance you stopped a little prematurely.... for example:



fenglong said:


> @WC_lun
> tiger systems with japanese footwork? are you using the word kenpo for exclusively japanese MA or like the japanese do it for MA in general? just because they are deep stances it doesnt mean they are japanese, so what makes you think so?
> from what i learned about tiger styles is that the earliest ones on which most others seem to base on relate to the black tiger style of shaolin and the hung gar, which itself relates to tibetan boxing brough over by a tibetan monk.



I don't think you got what WC_lun was saying there, he wasn't saying that they were "Japanese tiger systems", just that they use the name. His comments were more that, even though the name is used (Tiger), that doesn't make it a "tiger" system in the Chinese sense.

But more to the point, what are you on about here? The Japanese using "kenpo" to refer to martial arts in general? What? Deep stances are not uniquely Japanese either, but more importantly, WC was saying that the Chinese tiger systems use deep stances, and he doesn't see it in Japanese systems.... you seem to have firstly misread everything he wrote, followed by a whole bunch of completely inaccurate statements with no real basis at all.


----------



## Zoran (Jun 4, 2012)

Flying Crane said:


> There are some other systems that use Tiger in their names, but I do not believe they are actual tiger systems.  A couple of kenpo derived systems come to mind, there is a White Tiger Kenpo in the Chicago area, under the direction of Tom Ammiano, his student posts here sometimes under the name ZREX.  Mr. Ammiano is in the Ed Parker kenpo lineage thru McSweeny, he changed the system to meet his own designs.  I do not know where the name Tiger comes from in this context.



Heard my ears ringing. No we are not a tiger system and the Tiger name in the system came from something John McSweeney said to Tom Saviano after watching some of his students fight.


----------

