# Experienced Knifers



## MisterMike (Dec 14, 2003)

I'm wondering how people skilled defending against experienced knife fighters handle them empty handed.

I hear you most likely will be cut, in one fashion or another, so where would you prefer to be cut?

Also, how do you move in and what do you go for?

It seems most arts defend against a certain committed line of attack, but not the short slashes and rapid jabs you would come to expect from a seasoned knife fighter.

I've seen the techniques taught in the Parker system, and I do not think they would hold water against a real knife fighter. The examples they show are valid for the attack, but I feel the likeliness of such attacks may be low.

It's comparable to the reverse punch, frozen in the air, vs. the jab from a boxer. It's a little more complicated to deal with, especially holding a blade.

TIA,


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## Old Tiger (Dec 15, 2003)

Mike,
I just had to respond to this one! To answer your question bluntly....an experienced martial artist of any type getting the best of an experienced and armed knife fighter only works in the movies. 
I have explored this question, at others request, on numerous occasions. I will give a couple of examples that will hopefully be inlightening. I have studied in 13 different styles of combat/martial arts for the last 27 years. I spent more time with some more than others, obviously. One in which I spent a great deal of time is the filipino martial arts.  I trained extensively in Aikido for a little over two years. One night in class the instructor, a very capable third degree black belt was going over knife defenses. I dutifully went through the exercises without saying anything, I am after all, respectful. Toward the end of the class, however, he addressed me. Knowing my background, he says, I want you to take the training knife and see if you can cut me. I said I wasn't sure that was a good idea. He said no, I really want to see how my defenses work. So, after some cajoling I agreed. I took the knife and stood casually. He assumed a classic prepared posture and waited for me to attack as Aikidoka rarely initiate attack. I attacked and in the course of about two seconds cut him about eight to ten times from his arm, body, legs and groin. He was shocked.  He insisted we try again with the same results. "Well," he said, " you have given me a lot to think about."
The same thing happened with a boxer friend of mine who insisted he could hit me before I could cut him. Again, aluminum training knife in hand we went at it. He initiated with a jab cross. I cut both arms when he was on his way in and followed with a clinch and several stabs to the body. His reaction was "holy s#it."  Most people are not aware of what the knife can do in the hands of a skilled person.  You asked, where would you want to be cut first?" No where. A sharp four inch blade can cut 8-9" deep in a side of beef from one skilled slash. Imagine what that would do to the human body. You would be cut to the bone anywhere.  Experienced knife fighters slash because it causes greater blood loss and the opponent will pass out in seconds.  another important aspect is speed. Most skilled knife fighters are very..very fast. That is because most start their training, as did I, with years of stick work.  When you can negotiate a stick with either hand at 120 miles an hour employing complex stikes and footwork it is only accentuated when the weapon in hand is a small knife.  
To quote Guro Dan Inosanto:
Only three things can happen in a knife fight between two skilled and armed opponents. You are better than he is and you kill him. Second, he is better than you are and he kills you. and third you are about the same skill and you kill each other. 

An unarmed man against an armed knife fighter doesn't stand a chance. Your best defensive move in such a situation is to employ the Nike method.  Haul ***.


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## MisterMike (Dec 15, 2003)

Thanks!

I was hoping someone with Filipino experience would answer. They seem to train with the most realism, or at least practicality regarding knives and stick.

But of your three scenarios, there is the one where you are better than the attacker. The thing is, how do you train to be better?

Just by being faster? Certainly there is better technique as well. And certainly, no matter what, in most cases you will be cut.

One way in my training we prepared for that is to keep the backs of the forearms facing out, rather than the meaty part. The thinking there is that you have a "shield" to protect your centerline. It's better to be cut on the outside of the arm, than the inside, or across the torso.

Thanks again, 
Mike


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## Dijos (Dec 15, 2003)

I don't know, I guess I fall into both categories-I study an art which is almost all knife.  There are defenses against an armed opponent, but movement is the most important.  Do not be where the knife is.  This may include running away.  I can pass and redirect, and get off center, or to the outside, but being unarmed is a massive hindrance.  until your opponent is disarmed (highly unlikely) or taken down, or locked up (difficult, to say the least) you're going to be in a world of poop, unless you get away.  There is no replacement for real-time sparring to see what works, and what doesn't.--Joe


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## OULobo (Dec 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MisterMike _
> *
> But of your three scenarios, there is the one where you are better than the attacker. The thing is, how do you train to be better?
> *



I think what you are lookin for is how to realistically train against a knife without finding someone to specificly teach you a "style". I had some friends that had no interest in training the "usual" way with training knives, drills, ect. To accomodate them we came up with some interesting ideas. The first one is to use metal butter knives. The knives are dull edged and blunt tipped for safety and the slight serration gives them the ability to sting a little and leave a little red mark on the skin when you get hit. (Remember to use goggles or shades for basic eye protection if you go to the face) The best part about the butter knives is that they are metal and have a sheen, so you get the flash and "ting" of a real blade, not to mention they are inexpensive. The second thing we did was use washable magic markers. This was an easy and inexpensive way to assess hit locations and how they would damage you. Mabey this will help if you want to do some realistic knife work, but like any other thing in life, if someone is specifically trained to do something (fight with a knife), it will be extremely hard to stop them. Knife fights are chaotic, messy, sloppy and, worst of all, lethal.


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## Rich Parsons (Dec 15, 2003)

Good Posts.

I have done what OULobo has mentioned, and I Have also used chalk in your hands as well. The markers and chalk give you the chance to change colors to see. I liked the chalk idea for the fact that it was easier to brush off the color. Although I found it did not help in the attackers techniques. They became sloppy to protect the chalk from breaking in your hand.


And as  catchevangelist stated, it can be an eye opener. If you are training to just have some basic knowledge to maybe survive the tough guy with no training then you can train one way. If you are training to be a knife dueler or fighter then there are other areas of training. One is sensitivity to the opponent and the movements of your body and his body. This training can be tough to understand and practice unless one of the people involved understands and can explain it to the other and show it to them. 

As to timing, I have found from my instructors and my students that it is easier to do techniques and sensitivity drills slow, and slow increase them to the level the student can handle to learn from. Over time their timing and sensitivity and techniques all improve.

There is no easy way to gain all this by yourself in a quick and easy fashion. Once you do have the major conecpts and understanding you can practice on your own the techniques and footwork et al, yet to truly work your timing you need a training partner.

Oh yes I love White belts also, for they do not know how they are supposed to move  and this is just as much of a test to me as someone who is more skilled than I.

:asian:


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## MisterMike (Dec 15, 2003)

Yeah, I've heard about the practice knives that leave chalk on you. That sounds like fun actually 

Kind of like sparring is to street-fighting. Only the difference is you're more likely to get killed in a knife fight.

For people who have training in a style of hand to hand combat, I think the goal would be getting in on the person so you can do what you do best. But before then, I would think there is a common way to get to where you want to be without getting too injured.

But there is definitely a consensus that you're in a pretty bad spot from the onset.

Good posts,


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## Old Tiger (Dec 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MisterMike _
> *Thanks!
> 
> I was hoping someone with Filipino experience would answer. They seem to train with the most realism, or at least practicality regarding knives and stick.
> ...


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## Cruentus (Dec 15, 2003)

I basically tell my students that you should NEVER be in a fight with no weapon against a "knife fighter." Use a weapon that you carry. If you don't carry, use a weapon of opportunity in your environment, or Run if you can. If you find yourself unable to run with no weapon or weapon of opportunity against a trained knife wielding attacker, then you have F-ed up royally somewhere along the line.

Now, lets say you F-ed up royally, and you are empty hand Vs. an knife Armed attacker. You must take on the attitude that you are already dead. Your not worried about getting cut, and your not scared of anything. You are a walking dead person. Kiss your @$$ goodbye, get ready to meet your maker, then go for broke. Attempt to take his knife, or take him out. If you succeed, then you must have multiple lives, or are very lucky. If you don't, oh well...you knew what was going to happend anyways.

So, I say practice empty hand vs. knife disarms and strategies. Spar, drill, or what have you. I think that empty hand disarms are a lot of fun myelf. Have fun with it, and incorporate it into your own training...just understand that if you ever need to use your empty hand vs knife skills, your most likely going to be killed.

PAUL


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## Trent (Dec 15, 2003)

All excellent advice and experience above.  

Our silat is based upon the knife.  It has been frequently quoted among us, "There is no silat without the knife."  That being said, it is possible to survive and escape as well as (even) come out on top, but you had better be more aware, more skilled and more experienced than the knifer by a good margin, and the knifer doesn't really wish to eliminate you (i.e., lacks commitment to the deed).  Not something you wish to count on in the scenario at all.

For instance, the example above illustrated an experienced FMA (great bladed arts) with other martial experience over a protracted period of time was placed against two unarmed opponents who really had no idea of his skills, and he had an idea of their abilities.  Definitely a no win situation.

Even if you do have a some skills in knife arts all that is required is a *touch* by the knifer and you are injured, leaking and likely psychologically affected to a huge degree.  And you have to disarm him through structural compulsion, unconsciousness or death.  

Chalk knives are a good idea, as are large markers.  We use aluminum blades and dulled steel blades as well.

Speed certainly helps, as with anything martial, but timing is much more important, as well as angulation, footwork, control of the base, weapon knowledge, experience, kinesthetic perception, awareness, leverage, body mechanics and a proper integration of the attributes combined with realistic practice, realistic practice and more realistic practice.


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## Cthulhu (Dec 15, 2003)

After about two years of FMA training with quite a bit of bladework, the most important thing I've learned about knife fights is to not get in one.

I remember someone watching us do some bladework and after seeing some of the techniques and hearing the explanation of them, I believe the response was a whispered, "Holy ****!".  

As for chalk and training knives, here's an idea I had but have yet to implement:

Talk a large piece of chalk and run it liberally along the edges of an aluminum trainer.  As long as the trainer hasn't been overly polished, enough chalk should stick for a few slashes.

Cthulhu


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## Brian King (Dec 15, 2003)

Glue a pipe cleaner (those thin wire things with some kind of cloth or plastic wrapped on them) to a trainer. The fabric can then be dusted with chalk. After awhile the cleaner gets rather beat up just peel off and glue the next on. An added benefit of using these cleaners on the trainers is that you are better able to see exactly what part of the blade edge you are using. A fun thing is to also chalk cutting edge one color, false edge another color and the butt a third color (pipe cleaner rolled into a spiral and glued to the butt). Now have fun and draw and dot.

See you on the mat soon 
Friends
Brian


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## Arthur (Dec 16, 2003)

Great suggestion Brian!!!!! You've been holding out on us all this time, haven't you?  

Arthur


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## Gaucho (Dec 17, 2003)

Hi All ,

I am one of the senior instructors in Amok! Combatives and study Systema with Arthur. He felt I might have something to contribute here, so I hope you all don't mind if I add my 2 cents.

I've personally been involved in half a dozen EH Vs knife fights and survived more or less intact- except for the deep emotional scars, that is   . Honestly, I was very lucky in that the guys I fought were really just crazy a**holes with knives in their hands rather than skilled knifefighters. If they had been, with the skills I had then, I would be dead. No question.

OK, so I've been there, done that, never want to do it again, but  I train for it every day of my life.

Alright, so how do you approach what is possibly the most difficult survival problem a fighter can face- fighting EH Vs a skilled knifewielding attacker?

The first thing is that someone- and preferably several someones- in your training group has to become a skilled knifefighter. You have to understand your enemy before you can defeat him. If you have never seen skilled knifefighters fight one another, you are totally unprepared for the speed, the mobility, the deception. It is shocking.

Let me give you a little view of how a knifefighter fights so that we can start to think about how to approach him.

A knifefighter is very relaxed, liquid. His knife does most of the work for him.

He can cut you up to six time in a single second, every second. Most knifefights are over in 6 seconds.

He will cut any target of opportunity that presents itself.

If he can, he will cut you a few times on the way into your center and cut you some more on the way out. 

He trains constantly against other knifefighters so he is skilled in getting in and out without getting hit or cut. He therefore attacks with full intention but without 100% comitment to any strike. That way he is able to change blade direction at the very last instant with his bladehand- even out to nearly full extension- to deal any evasion, parry, or counterattack that you might attempt.

Everything he does is to draw you into a downward spiral of his creation ending in your destruction.

His attacks are always layered. He doesn't really care if his first or second or third strike gets you because the next one or the one after that in the chain will. He is always thinking one or two steps further down the logic chain, trying to get you into a position where you can no longer escape the cut.

His constantly practices deception in footwork, body mobility, and attacks in order to create a tiny opening in time and space in which to safely and effectively get through another knifefighter's defenses. Imagine what he can do to you with your slower EH fighter's reflexes.

OK, so that gives you some idea of what you are up against. If you think I am exagerating...I'm not. Find a combatives instructor near you who  is truly skilled with the knife and go at it. You'll see. That's why I say that it is critical that you and possibly some of your guys learn knifefighting- become knifefighters- from a skilled instructor if you hope to have a chance of surviving a skilled knifefighter EHed.

Now, how do you approach the problem. We train for this eventuality in realtime- full speed, full power with hard trainers ( and honestly even with live blades amongst the most skilled of us but I in no way advocate that) in every possible scenario that we can come up with and here is some of what we have learned:

1. If at all possible RUN! If you can't run initially, if an opening becomes available at any time RUN.

2. If you cannot run, and you have the luxury of time before the attack, never face a knifefighter EHed. A knife is best against a knife, but anything can be a weapon- your shoe, your belt, your hat, your shirt, a magazine or book, a garbage can lid, a can...anything. Find something and use it. But remember, if you haven't practiced using various impromptu weapons in your scenario training, they aren't going to help you nearly as much as if you are comfortable with them. Always train like you fight.

3. You cannot freeze or just give up when you see the knife. If you do, you are finished. EXHALE. BREATHE. Start moving, even if just a little. These things will unfreeze you.

4. Take your eyes off the knife. You are not fighting the knife, you are fighting the MAN. Don't lock eyes with your opponent either- it gives him too many ways to deceive you. Unfocus your vision and look through your opponent. Your peripheral vision is all about detecting movement- USE IT.

5. Relaxation is speed and speed is life in a knifefight. If your muscles are tense then you are slow and if you are slow you will die. Breathe and relax.

6. Move Move MOVE. A moving target is hard to hit squarely. 

In training, you must really emphasize developing your ability to move your head and your body and your feet to evade random attacking non-cooperative knifewielding opponents.

7. Don't put up your hands as a fence or a barrier between you and your opponent. They will only get cut to ribbons no matter how fast you think you are. Keep your hands close in to your body. You must instead be constantly aware of the position and angle of the plane of your head, arms and body that faces your opponent. You must learn to feel where your safe- not safe transition is at all times and constantly move to keep safe.

8. You are better off (safer) evading a strike and hitting your opponent on the fly, but if you must parry be lightning quick. Make your parries destructions if you can.

9. Don't let your opponent get you back on your heels. He will overwhelm you. Keep your posture upright and your energy forward. Be aggressive. Take the fight to him. Get inside his OODA cycle and establish psychological dominance as soon as possible. 

11. Again, move and hit on the fly.

12. You simply cannot afford to stay on the outside for very long. You must get inside the range of his knife and disrupt/destroy/disarm him as soon as you can. Again that means that your footwork and mobility and ability to see and capitalize on any opening that presents itself must be highly developed through constant training.

13. Other than through sheer dumb luck, disarms do not happen without first diminishing/disrupting the opponent physically, psychologically, or both. So break him down as much and as soon as you can and just let the disarm happen.

There are ways you can learn to use your hands/arms to make them much more effective. There are ways that you can learn to draw your opponent into a logic chain of your creation so that you can semi-reliably predict where his next strike will go. There are ways you can learn to absorb cuts and stabs to lessen their effect.  Unfortunately all of these things are beyond the scope of the internet.

That's the basics- easily written, hard to do. It takes a lot of effective realtime realworld training to get to the point where you stand some sort of realistic chance EHed against a skilled knifefighter. Patterned flow drills and cooperative training partners will never get you there. 

Have fun!

Amok!
Mario

"I respect you and your Art. Sadly, my knife does not." GT Leo Gaje, Jr.

"Getting out from under the short knife...now THAT takes skill" GT Leo Gaje, Jr.


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## arnisador (Dec 17, 2003)

Great post!


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## Cruentus (Dec 17, 2003)

Good post in terms of tactics.

One question...



> I've personally been involved in half a dozen EH Vs knife fights and survived more or less intact- except for the deep emotional scars, that is  .



What the heck are you doing in your life that has caused you to get  in a half a dozen knife encounters empty handed?

Just curious...

:asian:


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## Gaucho (Dec 17, 2003)

Arnisador ...thanks.

Paul...I grew up in inner-city San Franciso just outside of Chinatown during a time of serious social unrest. Later I went to medical school at UCSF- again in the middle of San Francisco next door to the Height. And later I did my residency training in Salinas during a time of serious gang/drug violence. 

A serious attack could happen at any time throughout my childhood and through my 20s- especially given the places I had to be and the times I had to be there. I saw the older brother of my best friend- a gang leader but very much a protector of us little kids- killed in a knifefight when I was 8 yrs old. Literally half of my close friends did not live to see adulthood. 

I've been attacked at one time or another by single attackers or multiples in a variety of ways. Its truly a wonder I am still alive and relatively unbroken .

I have to give thanks to my dad, who grew up much worse than I did and had (has) great streetfighting and weapons skills which he gave to me from an early age. I also have to thank my stars that my best friend's uncle at age 10 had just escaped from China where he had won the Shi I (full contact fighting competition). He agreed to teach my friend as a thank you to his brother for sponsoring him to come to the US. My friend needed a training partner and demanded that it be me . Uncle Chuk kicked my *** from here to tomorrow trying to get rid of my sorry white a** for a year before he finally resigned himself to the fact that he was stuck with me. I stayed and he taught me a lot and then wisely sent me on to other great teachers. I was a lucky boy for sure.

FYI, in all of those 6 EHs Vs knife fights, I had a pocketknife somewhere on me or near me but never had the time (or the need in some cases) to draw it before the fight was over. 

Now I live in a (relatively) safe place, but those early lessons are always with me.

Best Regards,

Mario


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## arnisador (Dec 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Gaucho _
> *in all of those 6 EHs Vs knife fights, I had a pocketknife somewhere on me or near me but never had the time (or the need in some cases) to draw it before the fight was over. *



I hear this story so often--a knife was on me but there was no time to get it.

A debate I hear often is teh "both hands on the wheel" strategy of grabbing the knife arm with both hands and using head butts and knee strikes to soften up the attacker vs. a Filipino-style passing maneuever to allow you to work in. What are your thoughts on this?


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## Gaucho (Dec 17, 2003)

Yeah it takes a lot of training in realtime to learn to draw your blade instantly from any position/situation.

As far as what's the best way to deal with the opponent's knife, now you're getting into the 'if this then that sort of thing' which is much easier to show in real life than to write about here.

It really depends on what your opponent is giving you to work with. His frame, his blade position, which way he is moving, how his attack comes in relative to your position. Every situation is unique and you must learn to go with the flow and solve the problem on the fly. 

Doing slow sparring- where both partners stay at 70% speed or whatever and DON"T CHEAT- is very useful for working out the possibilities.

In general, it is easier/safer to clear to your opponent's outside, destroying/disrupting his bladearm and head as you go, and enter to finish and disarm.

Sometimes you can't get to the outside and in that case you need to enter to the inside just as soon as is possible and gain ctrl of the bladehand as you disrupt your opponent's structure.

Always remember too not to fixate on the guy with the knife in front of you because most likely several of his friends are encircling you to sucker you right now. Always keep your awareness expanded and fight as if you are fighting multiples even if you see only one. In training it is highly useful to turn most one on one scenarios into multiple attacker scenarios at some point during the engagement. It keeps everybody awake and moving and thinking in the right way.

Mario


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## Rich Parsons (Dec 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *I hear this story so often--a knife was on me but there was no time to get it.
> 
> A debate I hear often is teh "both hands on the wheel" strategy of grabbing the knife arm with both hands and using head butts and knee strikes to soften up the attacker vs. a Filipino-style passing maneuever to allow you to work in. What are your thoughts on this? *



In My experience, when I had a knife on me, I did not have the time to get it out of my pocket or back pocket. Some of those times I was able to improvise a weapon, keys on a rope, etc,. already in the hand.

Pratice Practice and more Practice  

As people have already said what I have said, it is just another data point.


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## Cruentus (Dec 17, 2003)

This conversation does lend value to the practice of drawing. I address drawing in my classes for this reason, but I know a lot of other "knife fighting" schools don't, yet should. If you can't deploy your weapon in time to defend the attack, then your weapon is of no use.

PAUL


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## Gaucho (Dec 17, 2003)

Paul, you are absolutely right. If you can't get the blade out and in play, then you might as well not carry it. Nothing makes me angrier than when I discover that a new student of mine hasn't been doing their 'drawing and cutting' homework. 

An area of combat where people often forget to practice drawing and cutting is on the ground. Against a skilled grappler (and we have some truly world class grapplers in our organization...me not being one of them  ) once they have you on the ground, you really have to learn the ways and moments to draw your blade and get it into play. You usually only get one little chance.

Mario


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## arnisador (Dec 17, 2003)

Someone else, in a thread from a ways back, posted that he had had time to get a folder out of a pocket but not time to open it and found that throwing it was a useful tactic! (Maybe this was *arnisandyz*?) Even though it was closed it still had a scare factor because it was a knife and a distraction factor. It goes to show, a knife can be used in more than one way.


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## Gaucho (Dec 17, 2003)

One of our Amoks in South Africa (hands down the most dangerous place to live in the world) was just ambushed by a group of thugs. As he was being pounded, he was able to draw a blade and started stabbing the ***** out of his attackers. They're adrenaline was running so high that they did not even notice until he screamed out "You morons! What's wrong with you! I have a knife and I am stabbing all of you!" At which point they stopped, looked down at themselves, saw the blood and ran away with horrified looks on their faces. Interesting lesson.

You need to talk to your attacker and let him know how you are going to hurt him, how you have hurt him, how much he is bleeding, how much worse it is going to get, how weak he is looking...use your imagination.

I don't know if I'd advocate throwing my knife away- I'd use it as a fistload until I could draw it instead (if that was still necessary by that point), but hey whatever works. 

Throwing stuff at your attackers to distract them definitely works well. I've done it and many of our guys have done it at one time or another. Carrying a fake wallet to use as a distraction and throwing weapon is a useful thing...hint hint 

Mario


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## arnisandyz (Dec 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *Someone else, in a thread from a ways back, posted that he had had time to get a folder out of a pocket but not time to open it and found that throwing it was a useful tactic! (Maybe this was arnisandyz?)
> 
> Not me.  I think it was my partner Aldon.
> ...


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## AldonAsher (Dec 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *Someone else, in a thread from a ways back, posted that he had had time to get a folder out of a pocket but not time to open it and found that throwing it was a useful tactic! (Maybe this was arnisandyz?) Even though it was closed it still had a scare factor because it was a knife and a distraction factor. It goes to show, a knife can be used in more than one way. *




Guilty as charged.  I used that tactic once to escape an ambush I walked into in Tampa about eight years ago  (ah, to be that young and stupid again...).  It was at night so I think my attacker didn't know what I threw at him.  Either way, I was gone by the time he realized what happened.


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## arnisador (Dec 19, 2003)

Sorry for the confusion, gentleman! Still, it's a good point and I have made it in teaching several times since reading the post--if you can't open it you can always hurl it!


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## Cruentus (Dec 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *Sorry for the confusion, gentleman! Still, it's a good point and I have made it in teaching several times since reading the post--if you can't open it you can always hurl it! *



I am not trying to be critical here, but I practice drawing and opening so It takes no longet then a second for me to deploy me knife. I feel that if I have enough time to take it out and throw it, then I have enough time to open it and not throw away my weapon.

I am not saying Aldon did the wrong thing, because he did indeed survive. Also, if someone has a gun and I know they are going to shoot, throwing can be a good delay. I am just making the point, that if you practice opening and drawing you might have less of a problem (I say 20 or more draws in your daily clothes every morning until you can deploy it in a second or less).

Respectfully,

PAUL


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## Gaucho (Dec 19, 2003)

I'm with you, Paul. I would never throw away my last knife unless there was absolutely no other choice.

Like you say, you must practice drawing the knife in your street clothes several times every day-  with your shirt tucked in and hanging out, with a coat on and without, with gloves on, with your hands wet, when your hands are freezing...you get the idea. Practice drawing as you move, turn, spin, as you are falling to the ground, as you are getting up from the ground. Practice drawing your R side blade with your L hand and vice versa. You should get to the point where that knife just leaps of its own free will into your hand and opens itself like magic whenever you need it.

The tactical folders and fixed blades (and more importantly their carry systems) nowadays are much more user-friendly than the ones available to us in the '60s, '70s, and '80s. There is no reason not to become lightning fast at drawing one.

Mario


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## Cruentus (Dec 19, 2003)

Oh yea...and too add to your post, Gaucho, when you live in a chilly place like Michigan, practice drawing with your gloves on! It has a totally different feel. I hadn't been practicing this, I am embarrassed to admit, and a few weeks ago I was fumble fingers with the gloves! (getting better now) 

It takes very little skill to learn drawing, just patience and PRACTICE!


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## AldonAsher (Dec 19, 2003)

Paul, I agree with you.  If you carry a knife, you need to practice drawing it quickly.  But most people don't (myself included).  That was my point when I originally posted that story.  

I was very inexperienced in the FMA at the time of the incident(still am, come to think of it) and was never taught that I needed to learn how to draw the knife (hence, the reference to my stupidity).  Go figure.   

I didn't think; I just reacted.  I was scared.  I panicked.  I think he had something pointing at me.  To this day, I don't really know if he had a gun or not.  But, based on my reaction, I sure thought he did!  A lot of it is still a blur.  Later, it took an hour just for me to calm down (and a few seconds after that to realize I needed to change my underwear!!)          

Let's be honest:  No one really knows how they are going to react in that situation.  Not unless you have trained realistically (which my training at that time was not) or have been there before.  

Thanks for the insight, Paul.


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## Cruentus (Dec 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by AldonAsher _
> *Paul, I agree with you.  If you carry a knife, you need to practice drawing it quickly.  But most people don't (myself included).  That was my point when I originally posted that story.
> 
> I was very inexperienced in the FMA at the time of the incident(still am, come to think of it) and was never taught that I needed to learn how to draw the knife (hence, the reference to my stupidity).  Go figure.
> ...



Oh...no problem man! I wasn't trying to discredit you at all, so everyone knows; I was just trying to show the value of draw practice. I think you thought on your toes, overcame your fears, and you survived. You set a good example for your peers here on MT to learn from. Thank you for sharing your story! :asian:


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## Gaucho (Dec 19, 2003)

Absolutely Aldon. You didn't freeze up. You weren't a victim. You weren't a sheep. You fought, you thought on your feet, and it saved your life. That's what a warrior does. BRAVO.

Hell, I've made so many mistakes that almost got me killed or seriously hurt over the years that I cringe thinking about. Half the fights I was in I probably could have avoided completely or ended much more efficiently if I knew then what I know now. But I didn't...and yet I still survived. You fight the best fight you can. If you survive, you try and learn something from it for next time. That's all you or anyone else can ask of you.

Was throwing your knife at the BG the best thing you could have done in the circumstance? Who the hell knows. It was the best thing you could come up with at the time given your level of training and experience, and hey, it worked. Would you do it differently now given your higher level of training and experience? Probably. That's the advantage that real world training and experience give you- the ability to see and choose the better options on the fly under duress.

BTW, I was just thinking about something I hadn't mentioned early. If you normally carry folders, you should as soon as you can afford them, get or make (by serious rounding over the tip and the edge) training folders exactly like what you normally carry. Likewise if you carry fixed blades. Use these realistic trainers in all of your scenario work. It is one thing to be able to draw an aluminum fixed blade trainer out of your pocket during adrenalized training, it is quite another thing to draw and put into play a folder. The last thing you want is to be in a real fight and have your folder fly out of your hand as you try to draw it or worse have it cut the ***** out of your own hand!

Mario


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## Gaucho (Dec 19, 2003)

Oh, and using realistically shaped and weighted hard trainers during scenario work gives you a *much* better feel for which disarms work in realtime and which don't than a soft trainer. Soft trainers give the false impression that a lot of disarms don't work that actually DO against a real knife.

You still obviously have the issue of trainers not giving you the same type of diminishment and destruction as a live blade, but you can't have everything  .

Mario


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## arnisador (Dec 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *I am not trying to be critical here, but I practice drawing and opening so It takes no longet then a second for me to deploy me knife. I feel that if I have enough time to take it out and throw it, then I have enough time to open it and not throw away my weapon.*



I agree that practicing drawing and opening is important, but not that if you have enough time to get it into your hand then you always have enough time to get a decent grip on it and get it open, in a tense and moving situation.

Of course, throwing away one's weapon--and giving one's opponent a knife!--is a last resort, and opening the weapon and either brandishing it (to warn away) or using it is better.

But, I carry mine in a front jeans or shirt or jacket pocket typically, not a belt sheath (inappropriate where I work, for example), and getting at it is already an issue if I'm surprised--if I do get, it may be upside-down of what-have-you. using it as a kubotan or a distraction may be my options.

I only disgaree with you on one point--from the tales I hear, from skilled people as well as novices, it isn't at all clear to me that getting and opening your folder will be feasible. I don't advocate throwing away a weapon--the infamous solo disarm--but i think it's worth thinking about. I can imagine situations where I might chuck it at someone's face, scream "KNIFE!" for the shock/scare effect, and run as if my life depended on it...for obvious reasons. I see it as a potential get-away issue.


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## tshadowchaser (Dec 20, 2003)

Some of the best advise I have seen posted on EH vs Knife.
Thanks for the great post
:asian:


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## Brian King (Dec 21, 2003)

> Originally posted by PAUL
> I am not trying to be critical here, but I practice drawing and opening so It takes no longet then a second for me to deploy me knife. I feel that if I have enough time to take it out and throw it, then I have enough time to open it and not throw away my weapon.




Practicing drawing the knife and getting it into action is great. The idea of practicing the draw is kind of a fun exercise. While you are practicing it is interesting to have one or two people hitting/ kicking you. Have someone stand beside you and be stinky with your drawing hand/arm. Have them hold it down, move it to the side or out to the front trying to keep you from accessing your weapon system. Also drawing while in a roll is interesting. And as long as you are on the ground practice getting to your weapon while evading (surviving) three or four friends putting the boots to you. Another interesting drill is to draw your knife while an experienced swordsman starts to work you over. It is amazing how long a second really is when you are being stressed.

See you on the mat soon
Friends
Brian


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## Gaucho (Dec 21, 2003)

Great stuff Brian  .

Learning to relax, absorb and evade while being kicked on the ground is an outstanding exercise. As you say, learning how to draw your knife in that circumstance, learning how to successively get back up on your feet, all these things breed confidence. 

A second _can_ feel like an eternity. Have you guys tried this?

We do this drill at the beginning of every class. We call it 'the 30 second drill':

Cold right off the street with no warm up whatsoever we pair off randomlyand attack one another in full berzerker mode for about 30 secs to a minute. First blade against blade, then blade Vs EH, then whatever- stick Vs EHs, etc. You cannot run. You have to stay together and fight it out- prevent the other guy from killing you and find a way to kill him. We keep switching partners randomly and continue until we're too pooped to go on anymore.

It can feel like an eternity until you get used to it. It really wakes you up .

The object of the drill, obviously, is to learn to deal with the committed ambush. It explodes that instant in time in order to teach the student to go from resting state to all out fighting effectively for their lives in a blink of an eye. The drill has many useful aspects built into it including fear, controlling the autonomic fight/flight response, the need to relax, the need to breathe effectively, speed, application of heavy forearm parries, simultaneous attack and defense...and so on. 

The results over time are dramatic. People get *very* good at this.

Those of you who haven't should give it a try.

Have fun,

Mario


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## arnisador (Dec 21, 2003)

Is there an attacker and a defender in the drill, or are both sides attacking?


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## Old Tiger (Dec 21, 2003)

We have done similiar drill many times. Especially when the weather is good and you can do it outside. It is enlightening and exhausting. In addition to learning what works and what doesn't (for example: control the thumb on the opponents knife holding hand if you are unarmed. What I mean is, hold it closed so that the knife can't be switched to his other hand in the melee', and so he can't rotate it around to cut your hand, can't lose the blade until you are ready to disarm. Interestingly enough, it seems most of thes encounters end up on the ground which provides yet another interesting scenario.) And you are right, it is very exhausting and will develop a unique type of stamina. Plus you learn to turn on that killer instinct instantly. You just need to find or develop partners that you can really "go" with.


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## Gaucho (Dec 21, 2003)

Arnisador...attack, counterattack, offense, defense, its all in the flow...simultaneous.

Cathevangelist...yeah, working outdoors on varying terrain is really fun as well as being critical training. Snow, ice, sand, in the woods, in an alley, on stairs, every type of terrain changes the fight a bit. The more you have experienced in training, the more comfortable you are should the ***** hit the fan, right?

And you are right, it is challenge, especially for new students to this type of work, to stick with it. We do use the principle of progressive resistence. That is, when a more experienced fighter is paired up with a less experienced fighter, the better fighter subtlely makes the drill hard but not impossible for his partner- i.e, he doesn't just completely destroy his lesser opponent. The diffficulty is then ratched up over time as the new student skills develop. It is still difficult work, however, and some people just can't hang with the program. The good news is that you, as an instructor, can feel confident that those who do keep coming back have the right martial spirit to become warriors.

Oh, FYI, just so some of you don't get the wrong idea, our '30 sec drill' is just what we do at the beginning of every class. It is only one tiny but useful piece of the puzzle. Once we are done with it, we move on to sparring one on one where any pair can attack another pair at anytime. I usually break out at some point and watch each pair and give tips on whatever they're doing- if need be. I will randomly attack one of a pair as well. All this keeps our fighters from overfocusing on one opponent at a time. 

Once we are all warmed up well through several rounds of various types of sparring we move on to the real work of the class- scenario work, sensitivity training, movement work, whatever.

Once we are all fried from that, we finish by clustering in groups of three or four and discussing what we learned in class and asking any leftover questions. Again, as throughout the class, at any point someone in a group can attack another and the others in that group then also instantly gang up on the attackee. The fight goes on until the attackee gains dominance, escapes, or fails. If failure, then attacks are worked backwards from failure through slow sparring in order to discover the various ways and timeframes in which success could have occured. 

We do the same during scenario training- i.e., if someone fails a scenario, we play it out again slow sparring, going backwards from failure first, then forwards from the beginning, until the fighter feels comfortable with their ability to deal with that particular attack sequence. 

Slow sparring is a *tremendous* learning tool. I cannot emphasize that enough. It allows students to see what they might miss in realtime, and the lessons learned translate perfectly to realtime.  

Anyhow, that's some of what we do routinely. It makes for a fun and challenging time and keeps things more 'real'. Try it for yourselves and see what you think.

Respectfully,

Mario


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## arnisador (Dec 21, 2003)

Sounds similar to the discussions of Systema in the RMA forum. I think you said you also do Systema, so maybe that's no surprise!


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## Gaucho (Dec 21, 2003)

Yes I am huge advocate of Systema. It is such *sweet science*. Its the kind of subtle art where the more you know about fighting the more you appreciate it. It is wonderful what training in Systema teaches you and how much better of a fighter it makes you. It has proven itself to me and to my training partners over and over again. 

As far as teaching goes, by adding Systema principles to the Amok! teaching progressions, I can now get my beginning students to move like experienced fighters significantly faster- in a matter of a few months.

And what about striking or throwing ability on the fly in reatime? Or fighting/hitting/throwing on slippery surfaces or underwater where you cannot base and your center of gravity is shifting around all? Systema is freakin' unbelievable, I kid you not. It is a Thing of Beauty.

Mario


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## arnisador (Feb 21, 2004)

Here's an interesting post on using the blade reverse grip, edge in (and other options):
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?&postid=2477553#post2477553


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## BladeMaster (Mar 3, 2004)

As I have stated many times:to try to fight a knife wealding person (experienced or not) is a mostly fatal endevor.  You have a 20% greater chance of dying from a stab wound than a gunshot...REAL cop statistics.  If you think you really can stop a knife weilding person,moving  very fast,powerful and only carving you up on his mind...TEST IT OUT FOR REAL!!!  YOU ONLY GET ONE SHOT AT THIS TEST.  Sooo...if you don't want to do that the next best thing is to go to this slick site I found called www.VirtualBlade.com. You just buy this cool kit for cheap,stick it on your practice blade and whack away at each other.  See who comes away without a big fat GREEN mark on 'em.  Now try it empty handed with the other guy going full boar.  Good freakin luck!  I will bet the farm that no one who is emptyhanded will survive.  In fact find someone who has NEVER done knife fighting in his life and let him attack without rules or teaching on his mind and you won't survive either.  This is a pretty sobering experience. With severe practice in this manner,over time you might have a slight edge over the dojo practitioner with his bare rubber knife,not knowing what worked and what did'nt.  Take this to heart folks,but,don't take my word for it.  Try it yourself...it will save your life.  Leave fantasy for the movies and idiots like VanDamme who got his clocked cleaned for real by a real Chuck Zito.  Stay safe.BladeMaster


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## Skyline22 (Mar 19, 2004)

I've been subject to two knife fights to this date.  As for combat experience with a blade, I can pretty much tell you, YES, you will get cut..more often than not.  I was cut both times I was engaged, the second time twice!  It's not pleasant, engaging another individual with a blade in his hand..but it's not impossible to deal with.. here are some basic ground rules for you..

1. Expect to get cut.  PERIOD
2. Don't focus too much on the blade.  While it's dangerous, the person using it is your true threat.
3. If you have no other option but to defend, get in close..do NOT try to distance yourself, that only gives him room to manuever and attack.  Smother his natural weapons if you can, and take out his platform.
4. Don't ever try to control the weapon or weapon hand.. instead, attack the limb behind it.  Try to control the arm itself..doing this, you can disarm in several ways, and limit his access during attacks.
5. Don't try to "hurt" him or use pain compliance tactics...he's got a knife!  Incapacitate or kill him!  If he happens to survive, lucky him.  If not, then it was a justifiable homicide.  Use of deadly force IS authorized when...

1. There is an immediate threat of seriously bodily harm.
That includes:
*Open wounds or gashes.*
*Broken bones.*
*Damage to internal organs.*

If any of these factors are present during an assault on your person, then respond accordingly.  I might come across as way too aggressive, but then if I didn't, I wouldn't have survived two knife assaults.  No such thing as too aggressive when your life is at stake folks!!


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## hardheadjarhead (Mar 21, 2004)

MisterMike said:
			
		

> I'm wondering how people skilled defending against experienced knife fighters handle them empty handed.



Against an EXPERIENCED knife fighter?

Yuck.

I can't imagine a thing one could do in that event.  That qualifier "experienced" changes things quite a bit. What a  big chunk of suck. 


Some interesting comments from others, still.


Regards,


Steve


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