# Double-ends/speed ball routines for WC



## lansao (Jul 29, 2018)

Hey all, anyone else using a speed ball in their training?

Will share some of the drills I work but would love to hear from you all.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 29, 2018)

I have used it for a long time. The training has PRO and COM.

PRO - I can train striking speed.
CON - When I punch, I only use my arms and I don't use much of my body.

IMO, the longer you train with this, the more bad habit (punch with arm without using body) that you may build up.


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## lansao (Jul 29, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I have used it for a long time. The training has PRO and COM.
> 
> PRO - I can train striking speed.
> CON - When I punch, I only use my arms and I don't use much of my body.
> ...



Thanks for the input. Do you ever practice slipping?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 29, 2018)

lansao said:


> Thanks for the input. Do you ever practice slipping?


After I started to use "rhino guard", I no longer train "slipping" any more. I train how to move in between my opponent's punches instead of how to dodge those punches.


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## lansao (Jul 29, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> After I started to use "rhino guard", I no longer train "slipping" any more. I train how to move in between my opponent's punches instead of how to dodge those punches.



Interesting, googled that and came up dry. Got roofing materials haha. Any examples of a rhino guard?


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## Danny T (Jul 29, 2018)

Yep use a speed bag and the double end bag as well as wall bags
Slipping our wc is more of a full body move and there is an attack associated with vs just the head or an upperbody & head movement. We move the center of gravity over one foot or the other depending on what is happening. Ducking or a dropping as in a level change is also available if applicable for the situation.
As with all drills there are pros and cons. We use other drills to combat the cons of a different drill


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 29, 2018)

lansao said:


> Any examples of a rhino guard?


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## lansao (Jul 29, 2018)

Danny T said:


> Yep use a speed bag and the double end bag as well as wall bags
> Slipping our wc is more of a full body move and there is an attack associated with vs just the head or an upperbody & head movement. We move the center of gravity over one foot or the other depending on what is happening. Ducking or a dropping as in a level change is also available if applicable for the situation.
> As with all drills there are pros and cons. We use other drills to combat the cons of a different drill



Awesome. That sounds like how I learned to slip from these dutch muay thai guys at my gym and how I train it now.

I just add our rear pak into the slip. Bring the lead foot’s knee in on the ball while sinking and keeping upper body posture upright.


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## lansao (Jul 29, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


>



Ahh, gotcha.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 29, 2018)

lansao said:


> I just add our rear pak into the slip. Bring the lead foot’s knee in on the ball while sinking and keeping upper body posture upright.


When you dodge your head under your opponent's hook (or hay-maker), you need to use the other hand to push on his elbow joint away from your head. This way, his elbow won't strike back on the side of your head, or give you a reverse head lock. The "偏(Pian) – Head circling" is an important CMA principle.


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## lansao (Jul 29, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When you dodge your head under your opponent's hook (or hay-maker), you need to use the other hand to push on his elbow joint away from your head. This way, his elbow won't strike back on the side of your head, or give you a reverse head lock. The "偏(Pian) – Head circling" is an important CMA principle.



I disagree. I think that rising arm leaves his rib cage wide open to an incoming knee or roundhouse. I’d prefer to slip under the hook at a roughly 45 degree angle and dropping a gut/kidney shot on the way with my right while keeping a reflective angle to prevent that knee from coming in.


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## pdg (Jul 29, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


>



Personally, I'm really not keen on that.

The interlocking fingers ties up (literally) both your hands.

What happens if the person punching just pulls your hands downward and goes for an overhand?

Or kicks?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 29, 2018)

lansao said:


> I disagree. I think that rising arm leaves his rib cage wide open to an incoming knee or roundhouse. I’d prefer to slip under the hook at a roughly 45 degree angle and dropping a gut/kidney shot on the way with my right while keeping a reflective angle to prevent that knee from coming in.


The raising arm will push his right arm to jam his own back arm, so both of his hands cannot hit you at that moment. You have just used 1 arm to disable his 2 arms. At that close distance. your opponent's knee strike or roundhouse kick may just give you an opportunity for your "single leg" if you are a good wrestler.

When you use left hand to push on your opponent's right elbow joint, you can use

- right hand to push up on his chin (or right uppercut),
- right leg to cut his right leg,

and take/knock him down. Your 1 hand control your opponent's 2 hands situation can give you many options.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 29, 2018)

pdg said:


> The interlocking fingers ties up (literally) both your hands.
> 
> What happens if the person punching just pulls your hands downward and goes for an overhand?
> 
> Or kicks?


The reason that you interlock your hands is to combine your 2 arms as 1 unit. If you are as strong as your opponent, your 2 arms should be stronger than his 1 arm. If your opponent can pull down your double arms, he can pull down your single arm too.

The rhino guard can't do much for the kick. You still need to use your leg to deal with your opponent's kick.


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## lansao (Jul 29, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The reason that you interlock your hands is to combine your 2 arms as 1 unit. If you are as strong as your opponent, your 2 arms should be stronger than his 1 arm. If your opponent can pull down your double arms, he can pull down your single arm too.
> 
> The rhino guard can't do much for the kick. You still need to use your leg to deal with your opponent's kick.



Oh, I thought this was just demonstrating a principle of deflection. That you would retract one arm with an angled stance to provide layers of protection. Didn’t realize the finger locking was an application.

You can seriously break fingers like that with a direct impact on the “horn.”


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## Danny T (Jul 29, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The raising arm will push his right arm to jam his own back arm, so both of his hands cannot hit you at that moment. You have just used 1 arm to disable his 2 arms. At that close distance. your opponent's knee strike or roundhouse kick may just give you an opportunity for your "single leg" if you are a good wrestler.
> 
> When you use left hand to push on your opponent's right elbow joint, you can use
> 
> ...


Beware on his spinning fist or elbow if the range is proper or even a side kick.


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## lansao (Jul 29, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The reason that you interlock your hands is to combine your 2 arms as 1 unit. If you are as strong as your opponent, your 2 arms should be stronger than his 1 arm. If your opponent can pull down your double arms, he can pull down your single arm too.
> 
> The rhino guard can't do much for the kick. You still need to use your leg to deal with your opponent's kick.



I think the problem is the opponent gets two arms for the price of one with the fingers interlocked. He doesn’t have to yank either arm down very far to make clearance with both.

Don’t mean to hang up on you Kung Fu Wang, but struggling with some of this.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 29, 2018)

lansao said:


> Oh, I thought this was just demonstrating a principle of deflection. That you would retract one arm with an angled stance to provide layers of protection. Didn’t realize the finger locking was an application.
> 
> You can seriously break fingers like that with a direct impact on the “horn.”


You need to learn how to fight with handcuff on.


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## lansao (Jul 29, 2018)

Danny T said:


> Beware on his spinning fist or elbow if the range is proper or even a side kick.



You can also slip then tuck your head behind his left shoulder to control the elbow from the shoulder joint. Keep left arm guarding face throughout.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 29, 2018)

Danny T said:


> Beware on his spinning fist or elbow ...


I don't know how that can be possible. Which arm are you talking about?


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## lansao (Jul 29, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You need to learn how to fight with handcuff on.



Still doesn’t explain interlocking breaking fingers. Would rather cusp my fist with the other hand.

In all practicality, I’d submit to avoid a taser or worse.


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## pdg (Jul 29, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The reason that you interlock your hands is to combine your 2 arms as 1 unit. If you are as strong as your opponent, your 2 arms should be stronger than his 1 arm. If your opponent can pull down your double arms, he can pull down your single arm



If he pulls down your single arm, you still have one arm remaining to deal with the next punch.

One arm pulling down is stronger than two arms going up, especially at those angles.

I can (just about) do (a couple of) one arm pull-ups.

I can't even pretend to do one arm handstand push-ups, and two arms is a struggle.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 29, 2018)

lansao said:


> Still doesn’t explain interlocking breaking fingers. Would rather cusp my fist with the other hand.
> 
> In all practicality, I’d submit to avoid a taser or worse.


It's trade off. I have tried.

1. interlocking fingers.
2. tiger mouth hold tiger mouth.
3. hand hold on wrist.
4. fists touch together.
5. palm touch palm.
6. ...

So far 1 is still the strongest.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 29, 2018)

pdg said:


> If he pulls down your single arm, you still have one arm remaining to deal with the next punch.
> 
> One arm pulling down is stronger than two arms going up, especially at those angles.
> 
> ...


Please do me a favor. Get your training partner and test this and to see how hard it is to use 1 arm to pull down your opponent's double arms.

All WC guys use Tan Shou.The rhino guard is just "double Tan Shou". If you have confidence in your single Tan Shou, you should also have confidence on your double Tan Shou.


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## lansao (Jul 29, 2018)

Back to double-ends, any thoughts on using it to practice pak/linear deflections?


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## pdg (Jul 29, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Please do me a favor. Get your training partner and test this and to see how hard it is to use 1 arm to pull down your opponent's double arms.



Well, not sure if it counts because boxing gloves on both parties, but...

Many times, I can pull down their double hand high guard with one hand, then use the same hand in a circular motion to backfist to head.

And that's on guys bigger than me.

Issues with me doing that include:

Them now knowing I might try it and getting a kick in.

Being told it's a foul (I can do it 'legally' in tkd sparring, but the kickboxing I do seems to have much tighter rules in some regards).


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## lansao (Jul 29, 2018)

pdg said:


> Well, not sure if it counts because boxing gloves on both parties, but...
> 
> Many times, I can pull down their double hand high guard with one hand, then use the same hand in a circular motion to backfist to head.
> 
> ...



K1?


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## pdg (Jul 29, 2018)

lansao said:


> K1?



IKF, but possibly restricted ruleset in class sparring.



Edit: kind of like the American kickboxing rules (above the waist), mixed with semi contact point rules (but continuous, not point-stop). In class at least...


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 29, 2018)

pdg said:


> Many times, I can pull down their double hand high guard with one hand, then use the same hand in a circular motion to backfist to head.
> 
> And that's on guys bigger than me.


Not saying it's absolute impossible. The downward pull always have gravity advantage over the upward resistance. The moment that your opponent tries to pull down your rhino guard, the moment your rhino guard will change into "double spears - 2 inward circles". You borrow your opponent's downward pulling and hook punch (or hay-maker) back to his head.


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## Danny T (Jul 29, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I don't know how that can be possible. Which arm are you talking about?


Left. I use a hook or a straight punch often to set up a spinning back fist or elbow.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 29, 2018)

Danny T said:


> Left. I use a hook or a straight punch often to set up a spinning back fist or elbow.


So you are saying that after a right hook punch, his body will rotate to the left and end with a left spin back fist. IMO, when he does that, his back will be exposed to his opponent.


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## lansao (Jul 29, 2018)

pdg said:


> IKF, but possibly restricted ruleset in class sparring.
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: kind of like the American kickboxing rules (above the waist), mixed with semi contact point rules (but continuous, not point-stop). In class at least...



Very cool, will check it out.


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## Danny T (Jul 30, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> So you are saying that after a right hook punch, his body will rotate to the left and end with a left spin back fist. IMO, when he does that, his back will be exposed to his opponent.


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## pdg (Jul 30, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> So you are saying that after a right hook punch, his body will rotate to the left and end with a left spin back fist. IMO, when he does that, his back will be exposed to his opponent.



Exposing your back isn't the end of the world, unless you turn around and just stand there...

Occasionally it's very bad news, occasionally it's the absolute best option - oftentimes it's just somewhere between.


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## wckf92 (Jul 30, 2018)

Your (OP) original question was about speed balls. For me, nope. But, double end balls/bags are pretty good at working your timing and accuracy, whether alone or with some partner assistance.


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## pdg (Jul 30, 2018)

Also back on topic, I'd like to get a double end bag/ball soon.

And, one of those hats with a tennis ball on elastic


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## wckf92 (Jul 30, 2018)

pdg said:


> And, one of those hats with a tennis ball on elastic



Yup. I have one of those and it is humbling to say the least! Obviously I modified the drill to suit WC (essentially converting the boxers punch into vertical fist, elbows down, etc). But, that little thing is AWESOME for training/developing amazing eye/hand coordination, timing, accuracy, etc. And, mine comes with a convenient snap link so when not using it as the punch trainer...you can unsnap it, and hook it onto a supporting device from above and let it hang down to act as an nice target for long pole bil / thrust accuracy drills!


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## geezer (Jul 30, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The reason that you interlock your hands is to combine your 2 arms as 1 unit.
> 
> The rhino guard can't do much for the kick. You still need to use your leg to deal with your opponent's kick.



I don't see any advantageto interlocking the fingers. You can join your hands strongly _without interlocking the fingers- _which can prevent you from separating your hands quickly if necessary. So if one hand is knocked down, you can separate your hands and bring the other up to cover.

If both your arms are locked together as a unit, both can be deflected as a unit with a strong _pak sau_ or double _jut sau_. Then your opponent takes centerline and can easily get through your defense. _Yat fook yee_ -- using one to control two.

I played around with your Rhino Guard and found it really useful against a student I called "Vice-Grip" Eddie who, although only about 5'6" tall had huge Popeye forearms and one of the strongest grips of anybody I've known.

One day I was using this guy to show how to effortlessly break away from someone grabbing both wrists and jerking you off balance. Against Vice-Grip Eddie, at full resistance, the usual _huen-sau_ and _jut-sau_ releases were a struggle. But by _clapping _my hands together (not interlacing the fingers!)  in a variant of your Rhino guard, I had all the structural stability I needed to step in and turn, rolling my elbow over his arm and easily break his grip, trap his arms under mine, then separate my hands to elbow or fak sau his face at will. This has become a staple S-D  technique in my school.


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## pdg (Jul 30, 2018)

wckf92 said:


> Yup. I have one of those and it is humbling to say the least! Obviously I modified the drill to suit WC (essentially converting the boxers punch into vertical fist, elbows down, etc). But, that little thing is AWESOME for training/developing amazing eye/hand coordination, timing, accuracy, etc. And, mine comes with a convenient snap link so when not using it as the punch trainer...you can unsnap it, and hook it onto a supporting device from above and let it hang down to act as an nice target for long pole bil / thrust accuracy drills!



Aside from the actual benefits, they just look fun.

And I do think the most fun thing would be taking it to class and saying "here, try this"


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 30, 2018)

geezer said:


> I don't see any advantageto interlocking the fingers. You can join your hands strongly _without interlocking the fingers- _which can prevent you from separating your hands quickly if necessary.


One has to learn how to walk before to learn how to run. The rhino guard and zombie guard are interchangeable.

The rhino guard is designed for the beginners (or wrestles who has no striking art training). It helps them to build up confidence. The stronger their rhino guard that they can feel, the more confidence that they will have that their heads can be better protected. The main purpose for it is to not allow opponent's punch to go through between the arms.

The zombie guard is designed for more advances. It doesn't fully close the front door. But at this level, if your opponent tries to punch in through the front door (between arms), a small arm rotation can redirect that punch to the side door. Since zombie guard doesn't lock the fingers, it has more mobility.


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