# ninjutsu & Marines



## Fallen Ninja (Nov 9, 2005)

I was looking at the winjutsu website and I saw a link for the Marine Martial Arts. What is the connection, and if there isn't... why is the link on there?

:ninja:
FN


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## r erman (Nov 9, 2005)

I believe Jack Hoban was one of many advisors on the Marine Corps Martial Art curriculum.  I do not now how much, if any, he contributed to the system, though.


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## Cryozombie (Nov 10, 2005)

r erman said:
			
		

> I believe Jack Hoban was one of many advisors on the Marine Corps Martial Art curriculum. I do not now how much, if any, he contributed to the system, though.



Yes, I remember reading several  articles in which Mr Hoban talks about his time working on that program with several others.  Since Winjutsu is his site, it makes sense he has a link.


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## Dale Seago (Nov 10, 2005)

See http://www.marinecorpsmartialarts.com/

When you enter, you'll notice Prof. Robert Humphrey's Warrior Creed linked on the menu at the left.  Humphrey was one of Jack's mentors, and he and Hatsumi sensei had met; his conflict-resolution work and values training led Soke to award him a posthumous honorary 10th dan (back when there were only 10 dan grades) when he passed away.

You'll also see Jack listed as one of the Subject Matter Experts who helped develolp the program if you go to "MACE Staff" and then to "Subject Matter Experts".

He holds a Black Belt Emeritus rank in the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program (MCMAP), and he teaches regularly at the training courses for their instructors at Quantico -- physical instruction ("Technique enhancemants"), not just the values stuff.


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## Fallen Ninja (Nov 11, 2005)

Thanks Dale, you always clear things up.

:ninja:
FN


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## davidg553 (Nov 14, 2005)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Yes, I remember reading several  articles in which Mr Hoban talks about his time working on that program with several others.  Since Winjutsu is his site, it makes sense he has a link.



For what its worth, "several others" includes Ken Shamrock


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## SP90 (Nov 28, 2005)

I don't know if it's really in the spirit of the thread but I have seen a documentary in ninjutsu and the decided to compare a modern ninja to navy seals. It was in a big house chosen to be kind of similar to shoguns' palaces. There was one guy who was the target and some bodyguards inspecting the hallways and protecting him. The navy seals were 5 and they used strategy alot to kill everyone in less than 20 seconds. The ninja (Stephen Hayes) used a rather different approach. He disguised in a janitor who wanted to clean the camera lenses. He took 4 hours to finally "kill" the target by jumping on him when he was cleaning a camera near him.


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## Fallen Ninja (Nov 28, 2005)

That was a documentary done by Discovery Channel. Unfortunatley there was a lot of things left out and it made Ninjutsu look like some magical power thing. I guess the good thing is a lot of frauds out there didn't learn too much watching it. It did have good entertainment value if you wanted to pop out the popcorn and have a big soda with it.

:ninja:
FN


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## bobster_ice (Dec 1, 2005)

the marines learn ninjitu, well, not learn it but learn all of the ancient techniques of self defence, well, from my research, that is what ive gathered


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## Floating Egg (Dec 2, 2005)

> That was a documentary done by Discovery Channel. Unfortunatley there was a lot of things left out and it made Ninjutsu look like some magical power thing. I guess the good thing is a lot of frauds out there didn't learn too much watching it. It did have good entertainment value if you wanted to pop out the popcorn and have a big soda with it.


 
I believe the documentary is called Unsolved History: Ninjas. Turnbull's association made me think twice about watching it, but I gave in to my curiosity. Unfortunately, like many Discovery Channel programs, entertainment trumps education. The only positive thing that I can think of is that the _experiment_ wasn't sensationalized.


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## Shaolin Bushido (Dec 3, 2005)

That was a good show.


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## Deaf (Dec 3, 2005)

bobster_ice said:
			
		

> the marines learn ninjitu, well, not learn it but learn all of the ancient techniques of self defence, well, from my research, that is what ive gathered



Ummm... if you read the previous post ( by Dale Seago ) he pretty much tells you a little bit about the Marine Corp program and lists a web site for you to get more information about the program.

From the FAQ listed on the site, the Marine Corp Martial Program is really using multiple martial arts within their program, not just ninjutsu.

Now on the subject of that Discovery Channel show... I thought it was pretty cool seeing how the SEAL team just went in there and blitz'd them to take out the subject.  I understand the tactics that SKH did however at the end, he was "killed"  so even thought he did get his objective, he, himself was taken out as well.

Michael


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## Dale Seago (Dec 4, 2005)

davidg553 said:
			
		

> For what its worth, "several others" includes Ken Shamrock



That's correct -- the MACE page on Subject Matter Experts I cited above lists him.


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## Dale Seago (Jan 16, 2006)

As most will be aware, Hatsumi sensei has placed huge emphasis on weapons-based armored combat in the Bujinkan over the last couple of years or so. That makes this article by Lieutenant Colonel George Bristol, head of the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program (MCMAP), particularly interesting:



> *LET'S ROLL???*​ *The Realities of Armored and Weapons Grappling
> 
> Lieutenant Colonel G. H. Bristol, USMC*
> 
> ...



The essay above can be found online at https://www.tbs.usmc.mil/Pages/MA/media/docs/docs/LET'S%20ROLL.htm


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## Connovar (Jan 16, 2006)

Position before submission is a cardinal rule whether in pure grappling or mixed martial arts or combat. In  a combat or self defense situation it would be foolish to intentionally go the ground (although putting the opponent on the ground is not a bad idea). Even if on the ground, you would move to position and finish the opponent. In the street that would be headbutts knees etc elbows etc if on the ground after you have position. If a military situation add to the above using your knife handgun whatever. But you have to have position first. From it you  have the balance to strike or use weapons very effectively.

Obviously the best best thing for combat is simply to shoot them. However when combat goes hand to hand it wont look like a striking or kicking match. The combatants quickly close with each other and then grappling along with the elbows and knees etc come into play. Again here the issue is being able to maintain a good position (standing) from which to deliver these strikes. 

You dont get points for submission or position in combat. You just get to see another sunrise.


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## Bigshadow (Jan 16, 2006)

Great link and read Dale!


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 16, 2006)

Thanks Dale.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Shaolin Bushido (Jan 16, 2006)

Just a quick aside ... I don't know if y'all are aware of it or not but Ken Shamrock actually attended boot camp and only left without completing it due to them deciding to disqualify him due to an existing neck injury he'd incurred in his HS wrestling career.  

Recruiters ... they got a tough job.  They'd told him it wasn't a problem but I guess the Navy Doc's had other thoughts.


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## Connovar (Jan 17, 2006)

His article describes what he thinks works best  in the uncontrolled environment.of combat. According to him the best candidates are the people who have or are presently doing full speed resistant grappling. (Notice he did not menition do kata or simply drilling technique over and over as good background for real combat).

He is also strongly focus on the conditioning element. To be a good warrior you need to be in shape. Thats been discussed before. Obviously the marines do more exercise than just walking.

He does seem to contradict himself. He obviously highly values the attribute development that grappling provides and yet doesnt understand that the grappling in the military program provides just that. Perhaps he is to focused on the particular techniques that are taught for this grappling training. Other people I have talked to regarding that program describe the grappling as providing attributes of strength, balance, aggressivness etc. which he also values. The other things needed such as strikes use of weapons for blunt force are convered under other activities and are easily incorporated into with grappling or close range scenarios So this article supports the use of full resistance training for realistic preparation of contemporary warriors. 

Clearly the best thing is to use a weapon, but when it goes hand to hand you need everything.


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## green meanie (Jan 17, 2006)

Connovar said:
			
		

> His article describes what he thinks works best in the uncontrolled environment.of combat. According to him the best candidates are the people who have or are presently doing full speed resistant grappling. (Notice he did not menition do kata or simply drilling technique over and over as good background for real combat).
> 
> He is also strongly focus on the conditioning element. To be a good warrior you need to be in shape. Thats been discussed before. Obviously the marines do more exercise than just walking.
> 
> ...


 
He does seem to contradict himself but I think I understand what he's trying to say here. He has a deep respect for wrestling and what he feels it instills into the individual. In his opinion, ex-wrestlers make excellent warriors, but the way to make warriors isn't to try to turn them into wrestlers. Does that make any sense?


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## Cryozombie (Jan 17, 2006)

Connovar said:
			
		

> He is also strongly focus on the conditioning element. To be a good warrior you need to be in shape. Thats been discussed before. Obviously the marines do more exercise than just walking.


 
I dont want to take this off topic... but Im sorry to say there is a HUGE... IMMEASURABLY HUGE... difference between the kind of conditioning a Soldier/Marine needs on the modern battlefield and what the average Martial Artist needs to survive an encounter with a drunk mofo in a bar looking to pick a fight.  I dont need to doubletime march 15-20 miles with an 80lb pack and a rifle to get to the bar... in 30 minutes...you know what I am sayin?  

I'd like to point out that being in shape does_ not_ make you a good fighter.  And being a good fighter does not mean you are in shape either.  I know some bad mother bikers that are easily over 300lbs and its NOT a Stallone physique, if you catch my meaning and I wouldn't try an mess with them... they have been in more _REAL_ fights than most of us will ever see.

Comparing the neccessary physical conditioning of a Marine to the average Martial Artist is about the same as comparing the Cooking skills of Emiral or Morimoto to say... my ex wife... she was a decent cook... but c'mon.


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## Connovar (Jan 18, 2006)

> Experienced grapplers can probably weather the storm more readily. An elite level wrestler or grappler can "subdue" unarmed opponents because of high-level repetition. Likewise, their major strength - aggression and lack of fear of contact - makes them good candidates for the transition to weapons-based systems.


 


*Notice here that he uses the term grappler (i.e wrestling, judo, bjj, submission wrestling etc). Their training which includes heavy amounts of attempting and succeeding with techniques againts full resistance gives them the attributes needed. (aggression, lack of fear of contact)*

*As stated earlier I spent many years with the bujinkan. I have also done competitive freestyle wrestling, submission wrestling, traditional jiu-jitsu and brazilian jiu-jitsu. There is a world of difference between the intensity of these grappling systems and those of the bujinkan. The techniques are more similiar especially jiu-jitsu and its varients as would be expected. Its the training under full resistance early in the training that is the difference.*

*The bujinkan has the techniques. It lacks the appropriate training methods (resistive sparring or "rolling"). Without the proper training methods it makes it much less likely to perform the techniques under stress or realistic resistance.*

*Takamatsu was known to spar or compete etc. Why Hatsumi avoids it I do not know. Is he wiser than Takamatsu and the sports and athletic training experts and military trainers out there?*

*Perhaps it is heresy in the bujinkan to take an opposing position to Hatsumi! However it troubles me to see so many people blindly follow someone when in fact science and experience show him to be wrong. Hatsumi isnt going to be there if you need to protect yourself or your loved ones. The price of blind obedience could be high.*


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## Cryozombie (Jan 18, 2006)

What I am getting from your posts Connovar, not only in relation to the Bujinkan, but most of the arts here on this board... "If it aint MMA, its useless"

Arts that focus on striking, kicking, weapons, etc... wont do you any good, cuz they aint high intensity sport wrestling.

Is that about what you are saying?  Because if so, perhaps you should take it to the MMA forum, where that rhetoric is more tolerated, or perhaps try saying it in the Kenpo or Arnis forums and see if they agree that only Grapplers can fight.

but whatever your _personal crusade_ against the bujinkan is, its getting old...


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## Bigshadow (Jan 18, 2006)

connovar said:
			
		

> As stated earlier I spent many years with the bujinkan.


That means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!  Time spent training doesn't mean a person has learned anything.


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## Connovar (Jan 18, 2006)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> What I am getting from your posts Connovar, not only in relation to the Bujinkan, but most of the arts here on this board... "If it aint MMA, its useless"
> 
> Arts that focus on striking, kicking, weapons, etc... wont do you any good, cuz they aint high intensity sport wrestling.
> 
> ...


 
Any just where did I say MMA? We are talking about training methodogy which can be easily adopted to the bujinkan. If its getting old then dont respond or post articles trying to bash grapplers. It was Seago who posted this article not me.


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## Connovar (Jan 18, 2006)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> That means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! Time spent training doesn't mean a person has learned anything.


 
This is especially true if the training is faulty. I am comfortable because the science is on my side. I know that making the training easy allows more soccer moms and out of shape and plain lazy people show up to class. There is money to be made for sure by such stategies, but that doesnt make it correct.


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## Kreth (Jan 18, 2006)

Connovar said:
			
		

> This is especially true if the training is faulty.


Or the student...
I agree with Technopunk. If you want to continually bash the Bujinkan, find another forum to do it in, it's off-topic for this one. That axe of yours must be ground down to the handle by now anyway...


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## Connovar (Jan 18, 2006)

Kreth said:
			
		

> Or the student...
> I agree with Technopunk. If you want to continually bash the Bujinkan, find another forum to do it in, it's off-topic for this one. That axe of yours must be ground down to the handle by now anyway...


 
My axe handles are made of high grade steel!    Bye the way if  you read the thread you will see it is very much on topic.


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## Kreth (Jan 18, 2006)

Connovar said:
			
		

> My axe handles are made of high grade steel!  Bye the way if you read the thread you will see it is very much on topic.


The OP's article is on-topic, as a Bujinkan instructor contributed to the program. Your opinion on the state of training in the Bujinkan is not.


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## Connovar (Jan 18, 2006)

Kreth said:
			
		

> The OP's article is on-topic, as a Bujinkan instructor contributed to the program. Your opinion on the state of training in the Bujinkan is not.


 
We are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.


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## Cryozombie (Jan 18, 2006)

Nevermind.  S'not worth it.


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## Connovar (Jan 18, 2006)

Where did I complain that all three are attacking me. Of course you wont be able to prove that because I didnt. If you want to attack then go ahead, I am a big boy. I only ask for equal treatment under forum rules not just bujinkan thread "sort of rules"

Actually I think you are confusing your roles as moderator and forum member. But we are just getting off topic here arent we.  Perhaps I should just start another thread about the differnces btw Takamatsu did and what Hatsumi preaches. Then there wouldnt be this arguement over who is  off topic, right?


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## Connovar (Jan 18, 2006)

Thank you. I accept the retraction of your reply.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jan 18, 2006)

My spontaneous guess is that Hatsumi would be encouraging sparring a bit more if he had higher thoughts about our abilities to fight with Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, and not just fight in general.
My last contribution to this thread.


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## Cryozombie (Jan 18, 2006)

Connovar said:
			
		

> Thank you. I accept the retraction of your reply.


 
Dont thank me for anything.  

I pulled that reply because it was in violation of MT's Policies.  *I* am trying to follow them... and it was removed BEFORE you posted your response... So your response is just more proof that you are just trying to stir **** rather than contribute.  Keep it up.


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## shesulsa (Jan 18, 2006)

Putting personal opinions of the bujunkan and its practices, students and teachers aside (which would only serve to stay on topic), may I ask you this, Mr. Seago? And I do appreciate your tolerance of this outsider....

Is there a lack of H2H or CQC training in the booj in general? or is it a dojo-by-dojo thing? I would think each particular training medium would probably lean towards the strengths of the instructor coinciding with a generally approved syllabus.

I'm reading two differing opinions that Hatsumi is encouraging weapons-based combat and that he does not encourage sparring.  What is your experience and how do you think this will integrate with the current curriculum of the Bujinkan?


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## Connovar (Jan 18, 2006)

Technopunk, I would suggest we get back on topic. Personal attacks are really inappropriate especially coming from a moderator.


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## shesulsa (Jan 18, 2006)

I'll now recuse myself from the discussion.

Anyone who sincerely feels they are being personally attacked, then use the RTM feature in the post you have a problem with. It's the little red triangle in the top right of each post.

However, I think everyone posting in the thread should heed this moderator warning to remain on topic and refrain from personal attacks.


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## rutherford (Jan 18, 2006)

More and more I'm of the opinion that changing the rules in a conflict changes your entire strategy.  But that being able to change your strategy is absolutely essential for a Martial Artist.  Of course sport fighting is different than a lethal assault from an unseen assailant.  So what?

I find weapons training to be very similar.  When I sparred in a JKD gym, they quickly learned not to put a motorcycle helmet on me.  I'll happily use it as the tool of destruction it was meant to be.  What ever I have available.

That's also why I love training in the Bujinkan.


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## Dale Seago (Jan 18, 2006)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Putting personal opinions of the bujunkan and its practices, students and teachers aside (which would only serve to stay on topic). . .


Oh, and we couldn't POSSIBLY allow THAT, now could we?  (hee!)



> may I ask you this, Mr. Seago? And I do appreciate your tolerance of this outsider....


I'm tolerant of anyone who genuinely wants information and doesn't have a personal agenda to push, whether she has the remotest interest in doing what I do or not.

Um, 'specially if she's a Moderator (reflexively doffing bonnet and tugging forelock).



> Is there a lack of H2H or CQC training in the booj in general? or is it a dojo-by-dojo thing? I would think each particular training medium would probably lean towards the strengths of the instructor coinciding with a generally approved syllabus.
> 
> I'm reading two differing opinions that Hatsumi is encouraging weapons-based combat and that he does not encourage sparring. What is your experience and how do you think this will integrate with the current curriculum of the Bujinkan?


It's largely a dojo-by-dojo thing. With reference to the MCMAP, I think it's important to realize that the entire program, relatively new as it is, is still very much at the "shoden level" stage as I describe it in this post:

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?p=723825&#post723825

Please keep in mind that the MCMAP is being designed as something to be pursued throughout the entire military career of every Marine at every level. Ultimately, I expect to see them moving into the equivalent of chuden and okuden levels.

That being said, I do feel that some sort of _randori_ or "free play" is absolutely crucial to one's development. There are many ways this can be approached, but the critical thing for a teacher is to find ways to do this which do not cause the students to lose sight of the concepts and principles of proper taijutsu.

In my own dojo we don't "spar", in a competitive/"MMA" sort of fashion as a rule; but I do incorporate ways of periodically ensuring that students have a certain amount of "pressure testing" which requires them to be spontaneous and adaptive. Over the years I've had comparatively few students get into unavoidable physical altercations. . .but when you consider that I've been in this art for 22 years and have been teaching for a fair amount of that time, of course there have been some. No student of mine has ever been injured (other than at most a scrape or bruise) by an opponent out on t3h str33t.

Now that I think of it, this is interesting too: No student of mine has ever found it necessary to seriously injure an opponent.

The latest incident, as it happens, was yesterday. A yondan student of mine, Lawrence, called my cell and left me a voicemail (I was on duty running a personal protection detail at the time and couldn't answer), just to thank me for the training.

Lawrence is a deputy sheriff, and yesterday he had the unpleasant task along with his partner of enforcing a residential eviction order. The tenant had already lost his wife and his job, and was now being forced out of his apartment by his landlord as well.

Tenant wouldn't open the door. When Lawrence and his partner entered with the key they'd been provided, the tenant grabbed a folding Buck knife and held it to his own throat (a certain scene from _Blazing Saddles_ comes to mind here, but I'll forbear because this guy was genuinely willing to just go ahead and check out until the next turn of the Wheel).

Lawrence holstered his pistol, talked his way in close, created a momentary mental distraction, and WHAMMO he had the guy on the floor and cuffed, minus the knife (which he kept as a souvenir and showed us in class last night).

No dead tenant shot by an overzealous deputy following Departmental policy that says when a subject exhibits a potentially deadly weapon you go for your pistol.

In fact, no injuries at all. To either party.

And Lawrence sat there in the apartment as the cuffed subject sobbed, and cradled the subject's head: "It's going to be all right now, you're going to make it . . ."


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## Connovar (Jan 19, 2006)

I hope I am staying on topic here. As Dale note showed grappling is very usefull and needed skills. He also corroborates the value of randori. The most common element of all street fights and most h2h combat is that grappling is necessary. As such that is why grappling training is important. It doesnt mean one only uses grappling submissions or throws.
Striking with you hands and feet or weapons is also part of h2h grappling
Taijitsu as a grappling art does have the technique. In fact the techniques are not that much different that other Jiu-jitsu systems which you would expect since they come from the same root. The major difference is the amount and use of randori to facilitate learning.

The marine program obvioulsy utilizes a fair amt of randori which was one of the authors concerns.  The danger of randori to soon is that newbies tend to get excited and rely on strength only thus not only dont learn technique but are a danger to themselves and their sparring partner. However by doing it often and early one learns quickly that strength alone will not suffice. If the marine program is like most bjj programs it will consist of approx 1 hour of learning new tecniques and drilling them against increasing levels or resistance. The last half hour is usually spent doing consecutive 6 minute matches. Those relying on strength will quickly tire so technique comes to the forefront. 

I believe I am keeping this on topic, if not let me know and I apologize.


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## Bigshadow (Jan 19, 2006)

Dale, 

That is pretty much how we train as well.


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