# Not so rambling-re wing chun



## Vajramusti (Mar 12, 2015)

I am puzzled  by parts of this thread. So rather than arguing I will make my statement and let it go. I have been doing wing chun  regularly and consistently and daily since 1976 when I met my sifu Augustine Fong who learned from Ho Kam Ming who learned from Ip man for the longest period of time. I have done other martial arts- but wing chun is my main art -it has shaped my structure and my motions and I have used it effectively against other styles and in real self defense. I do not make a living with wing chun- just some pocket change.
But wing chun is my love. I adapt it to my needs without making a stew of it.

Wing chun takes time to learn- Ip man learned for about 8 years, Ho Kam Ming since the late 50s and Fong since 68- none of those three regarded wingchun as a collection  of techniques. Because of Ip Man's skils many claim him as their ancestor- but only a few paid him well  and learned from him consistently for a significant amount of time- seven years or more.

People developed an interest after getting small glimpses of the art. Most got stuck in techniques , jumbled things up and  mixed wing chun with other things became glued to videos, youtube or the internet.

Good wing chun remains a rare art. Yes-wingchun develops fine skills. No- if learned well you don't forget these skills in action. NASCAR champions don't forget their fine driving skills.Ali developed fine jabbing skills- he kept Foreman and many others at bay with fine motor skills. So does a bull fighter.


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## Vajramusti (Mar 12, 2015)

PS. Unless corrected bya good teacher- most people really don't know chi sao.
Understanding the details of the forms,, the footwork . the structures, the concepts and
chi sao are all inter related.


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## dlcox (Mar 12, 2015)

Vajramusti said:


> I am puzzled  by parts of this thread. So rather than arguing I will make my statement and let it go. I have been doing wing chun  regularly and consistently and daily since 1976 when I met my sifu Augustine Fong who learned from Ho Kam Ming who learned from Ip man for the longest period of time. I have done other martial arts- but wing chun is my main art -it has shaped my structure and my motions and I have used it effectively against other styles and in real self defense. I do not make a living with wing chun- just some pocket change.
> But wing chun is my love. I adapt it to my needs without making a stew of it.
> 
> Wing chun takes time to learn- Ip man learned for about 8 years, Ho Kam Ming since the late 50s and Fong since 68- none of those three regarded wingchun as a collection  of techniques. Because of Ip Man's skils many claim him as their ancestor- but only a few paid him well  and learned from him consistently for a significant amount of time- seven years or more.
> ...


 
Hello Joy,

I cannot outright disagree with you, but I cannot committedly agree either. Your examples of not forgetting FMS, while true fail to address one aspect. Professional athletes such as NASCAR drivers, boxers & bull fighters have to constantly and consistently train under heavy duress to maintain the skill. Most martial arts practitioners are hobbyists and do not train like a combat hardened soldier. True that once the FMS skill is learned it never completely goes away but it does have a high cost of maintenance once achieved.


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## Vajramusti (Mar 13, 2015)

dlcox said:


> Hello Joy,
> 
> I cannot outright disagree with you, but I cannot committedly agree either. Your examples of not forgetting FMS, while true fail to address one aspect. Professional athletes such as NASCAR drivers, boxers & bull fighters have to constantly and consistently train under heavy duress to maintain the skill. Most martial arts practitioners are hobbyists and do not train like a combat hardened soldier. True that once the FMS skill is learned it never completely goes away but it does have a high cost of maintenance once achieved.


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Hi dlcox- I agree that "most martial arts practitioners are hobbyists. However I don't pay much attention to what "most" do.


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## Danny T (Mar 13, 2015)

dlcox said:


> Most martial arts practitioners are hobbyists and do not train like a combat hardened soldier. True that once the FMS skill is learned it never completely goes away but it does have a high cost of maintenance once achieved.


True dlcox, however does that mean they should not continue to refine their FMS?


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## geezer (Mar 13, 2015)

dlcox said:


> ... Most martial arts practitioners are hobbyists ...


 
Er... _that would be me_. I mean c'mon. I'm an art teacher, a family man, have arthritis and back issues, and I'm a few months shy of 60. No way I'm going to train like a twenty-something MMA competitor!

Ironically, for us "geezers" the fine motor stuff and chi-sau game is what keeps us going. Still, I know that it"s the basics -- striking and footwork that matter in a fight.  I just don't feel like fighting much these days.

Now compared to Joy, I'm a young whipper-snapper. So he can speak for himself!


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## Tez3 (Mar 13, 2015)

Just remember "old and sneaky beats young and fit any day"!


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## Vajramusti (Mar 13, 2015)

geezer said:


> Er... _that would be me_. I mean c'mon. I'm an art teacher, a family man, have arthritis and back issues, and I'm a few months shy of 60. No way I'm going to train like a twenty-something MMA competitor!
> 
> Ironically, for us "geezers" the fine motor stuff and chi-sau game is what keeps us going. Still, I know that it"s the basics -- striking and footwork that matter in a fight.  I just don't feel like fighting much these days.
> 
> Now compared to Joy, I'm a young whipper-snapper. So he can speak for himself!





geezer said:


> Er... _that would be me_. I mean c'mon. I'm an art teacher, a family man, have arthritis and back issues, and I'm a few months shy of 60. No way I'm going to train like a twenty-something MMA competitor!
> 
> Ironically, for us "geezers" the fine motor stuff and chi-sau game is what keeps us going. Still, I know that it"s the basics -- striking and footwork that matter in a fight.  I just don't feel like fighting much these days.
> 
> Now compared to Joy, I'm a young whipper-snapper. So he can speak for himself!


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Haha- Geezer-I am still climbing the wingchun mountain without adding on baggage and junk--
Power punches ? Wing chun
Structure? wing chun
Footwork? wingchun
Strategy? wing chun
Tactics? wing chun
Timing? wing chun
Defense?wing chun
Attack?wingchun
Dealing with other styles? wing chun- I play my game
If one aspect is troubling?wing chun has many weapons
My advice to others? Don't do wing chun- unless you have a good teacher, learn regularly and practice regularly.Wing chun is not for dilettantes or cherry pickers.Its not MMA, JMA,KMA, MT FMA,western boxing, judo, www, etc-others can play their game. I play mine and will till the end.


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## ShortBridge (Mar 13, 2015)

dlcox said:


> ...do not train like a combat hardened soldier. ...



dlcox, I don't know you and I don't want to imply anything, but I'm asking sincerely: are you a combat hardened soldier?


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## dlcox (Mar 14, 2015)

ShortBridge said:


> dlcox, I don't know you and I don't want to imply anything, but I'm asking sincerely: are you a combat hardened soldier?



I base my opinions on personal experience. I know what works for me and the efforts required for it to be achieved and the environment in which it is nurtured. At times I can be cynical, but my experiences have dissolved the illusions of what others have told me to be "truth". No one has to believe my opinions, take it with a grain of salt. Experience is the best teacher. Listen to what others have to say then experiment for yourself. Investigate, inquire and question, this is how you learn.


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## dlcox (Mar 14, 2015)

Danny T said:


> True dlcox, however does that mean they should not continue to refine their FMS?


No, it means they shouldn't neglect gross motor fundamentals that will be more effective in a real and organic situation for cool looking palour tricks that are specialized and have a low percentage of probability.


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## ShortBridge (Mar 14, 2015)

dlcox said:


> I base my opinions on personal experience. I know what works for me and the efforts required for it to be achieved and the environment in which it is nurtured. At times I can be cynical, but my experiences have dissolved the illusions of what others have told me to be "truth". No one has to believe my opinions, take it with a grain of salt. Experience is the best teacher. Listen to what others have to say then experiment for yourself. Investigate, inquire and question, this is how you learn.



I agree with all of that, very sage advice. Zero disagreement from me.

Let me offer some complimentary perspective and same as you, you don't have to believe me. Like all things on the internet, everyone can take it or leave it.

I personally never refer to what I do as "combat". I've taught and trained with several combat veterans, active duty personnel and law enforcement officials. I've helped some of them and learned something about "the truth" from all of them. 

They don't tend to use terms like "combat" to refer to things that aren't. I'm personally very self-conscious about talking about anything I do as being "combat tested" to people who are home from Iraq or Afghanistan. I get that MMA people don't respect anyone who trains traditionally, but I notice that they are very comfortable throwing terms like "combat" and "truth" around. I think I know what they mean when they say that, but I wonder if this is a whole new martial arts community blind spot that doesn't fully consider what combat really is and what truth means to people who have been in it.

The second point I would like to suggest, though I don't expect to change anyone's perception by doing so, is that YouTube is not the ultimate source of truth. How many times a week does someone post "if it works, how come on YouTube...?" YouTube is actually an amazing thing, but not everything is on it. Most of what is was put there by someone trying to call attention to themselves. Calling attention to yourself and what you do is actually not traditional, at least in Chinese traditions and it's big assumption that anything on YouTube is representative of everything that isn't.

Just some thoughts, take them or leave them.


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## dlcox (Mar 14, 2015)

ShortBridge said:


> I agree with all of that, very sage advice. Zero disagreement from me.
> 
> Let me offer some complimentary perspective and same as you, you don't have to believe me. Like all things on the internet, everyone can take it or leave it.
> 
> ...



We have a similar background as far as training with and in the military is concerned. I agree that "combat" is a term that is not thrown around loosely in this circle. I used it as a reference and agree a new word is needed when talking about fist fighting, "combat" gives the wrong impression. Also I'm not a big fan of youtube and have never referenced a video to illustrate fighting application. I sometimes get irritated by individuals that don't have realistic knock down, drag out fight experience using video's as proof of how their choreographed and compliant applications work for "realz" under pressure. I also generally try to stay out of technical discussions for this very reason, but sometimes I get up on my soapbox. I don't have any problem with people practicing how or what they like. I just don't like it when they try to convince others of the superiority and practicality of a method that I know to be contrary to the case. I've seen enough of real violence to know what has potential and what is wishful thinking. I'm not a big MMA fan but I am a realist and I want to believe, that is why I practice traditional arts.


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## ShortBridge (Mar 14, 2015)

I can dig it. Like I said earlier, I don't know you and don't want to make assumptions, which is why I inquired rather than stated.

So we agree that YouTube videos are rarely, if ever, proof of anything. I would also suggest that neither is the absence of YouTube videos proof of anything.

I have never, nor will I ever, suggest that what I do or how I do it is superior or somehow makes me superior to anyone, but I know that if I start a discussion here, in a wing chun forum, on any aspect of wing chun, it will be trolled by people telling me that they have the truth and expressing their frustration that I do not acknowledge their exclusive correctness and demanding that I submit proof of the legitimacy of my training...usually via YouTube. All this happens without any sense of irony. 

If Wing Chun people were posting in MMA forums, that response would somehow make since to me, but it seems like we could discuss Wing Chun in a Wing Chun forum without bothering anyone. It also seems that people who hate Wing Chun would have no reason to even follow Wing Chun forums, but somehow that's not the case either.

I can't help but wonder how combat hardened soldiers feel when they hear martial artists referring to the reality of combat in the context of their training.


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## dlcox (Mar 14, 2015)

ShortBridge said:


> I can dig it. Like I said earlier, I don't know you and don't want to make assumptions, which is why I inquired rather than stated.
> 
> So we agree that YouTube videos are rarely, if ever, proof of anything. I would also suggest that neither is the absence of YouTube videos proof of anything.
> 
> ...



please don't take my cynacism as a dislike of Yong Chun. I love the art, I simply view it from a perspective that differs from popular consensus. I enjoy discussion with Joy especially because he is a well trained and knowledgeable individual who trained under an awesome Shifu. We don't always see eye to eye on certain aspects but I appreciate his viewpoint, even though we occasionally snipe at one another, me more so than him . I do, admittedly, like to push buttons at times. I agree about the bickering and ethnocentrism displayed by Yong Chun people, but that's par for the course. Yong Chun people do tend to have more contact practice than most TCMA, which makes them at times overly confident and cocky. Overall though, the discussions here aren't anywhere near as hostile as on that other forum. Differing opinions are what drives a conversation, most here reign it in before it gets out of control and it really does promote alternate viewpoints successfully IMO. There will always be trolls that stir the pot, but no one should have to be agreeable on every topic just respectful. I try not to argue when I do post, but sometimes my judgement gets the better of me. I won't go to the length of validating my legitamacy with boastful stories and fight video's. I try to explain myself as clearly as possible, if anyone can't follow what I write, video certainly won't clairify it. I come here to read, write and respond to what interests me not politics and ego stroking. Any nugget of useful information that I can aquire that will further my understanding and practice is a bonus. Hopefully what I contribute is useful to  some as well. We don't all have to agree all the time, or even like each other, just respect the opinion for what it is, an opinion.

As for your last comment, if you have been there or around those that have.......you already know the answer.


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## Mephisto (Mar 14, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Just remember "old and sneaky beats young and fit any day"!


It's a nice axiom and quite respectful but rarely true. Perhaps it holds true when comparing the untrained to the trained but that's it. It's why we don't see 60 year old boxers and other fighters schooling the young bucks, because age and ability are not exponential. Strength and power are not to be underestimated and it takes colossal skill to overcome size and strength, and when a guy is big and strong as well as skilled, age and experience are not absolutely better. However, age and experience coupled with strength and size can be quite formidable, that's why we've seen quite a few fighters compete into ages older than other competitive sports. 

That's one problem with martial arts, if you're into it long enough eventually you'll be an old guy still training martial arts. The funny thing is all the old guys I meet in martial arts all talk about how hard they trained back in the day and how much better they used to be, along with the martial arts scene as a whole. Some I believe, some I definitely don't believe. It's not hard to simply show up to a class and next thing you know 30 years have gone by, you may even have done a competition or two, but that doesn't mean you were ever that serious. This is just an observation. Age does not guarantee skill.


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## Tez3 (Mar 15, 2015)

Mephisto said:


> It's why we don't see 60 year old boxers and other fighters schooling the young bucks, because age and ability are not exponential.




Really? I don't know where you've been looking. I know quite a few 60 year olds and older who 'school young bucks' as you put it, which actually is quite a sexist comment because you do realise women fight, coach etc don't you?

I don't know why you had to take a light hearted comment and make it into a lecture.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 15, 2015)

Vajramusti said:


> I am puzzled  by parts of this thread. So rather than arguing I will make my statement and let it go. I have been doing wing chun  regularly and consistently and daily since 1976 when I met my sifu Augustine Fong who learned from Ho Kam Ming who learned from Ip man for the longest period of time. I have done other martial arts- but wing chun is my main art -it has shaped my structure and my motions and I have used it effectively against other styles and in real self defense. I do not make a living with wing chun- just some pocket change.
> But wing chun is my love. I adapt it to my needs without making a stew of it.
> 
> Wing chun takes time to learn- Ip man learned for about 8 years, Ho Kam Ming since the late 50s and Fong since 68- none of those three regarded wingchun as a collection  of techniques. Because of Ip Man's skils many claim him as their ancestor- but only a few paid him well  and learned from him consistently for a significant amount of time- seven years or more.
> ...



Try being a Taijiquan practitioner... then talk to me about this 

I feel your pain


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## Mephisto (Mar 15, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Really? I don't know where you've been looking. I know quite a few 60 year olds and older who 'school young bucks' as you put it, which actually is quite a sexist comment because you do realise women fight, coach etc don't you?
> 
> I don't know why you had to take a light hearted comment and make it into a lecture.


Yes I realize women fight, they could also be 60 and school these hypothetical "young bucks" or their female equivalent. Didn't mean to make a big deal out of a light comment, I was just getting up on my soap box, I trained with more than a few aging martial artists who think just because they've been around for so long that it means they are good. I'm always respectful when I meet these guys in person. But I do find it a little condescending when they talk about their "hardcore training" and how much better everyone/everything was back in the day.


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## Tez3 (Mar 15, 2015)

Mephisto said:


> Yes I realize women fight, they could also be 60 and school these hypothetical "young bucks" or their female equivalent. Didn't mean to make a big deal out of a light comment, I was just getting up on my soap box, I trained with more than a few aging martial artists who think just because they've been around for so long that it means they are good. I'm always respectful when I meet these guys in person. But I do find it a little condescending when they talk about their "hardcore training" and how much better everyone/everything was back in the day.




Well if you read my comment 'old and sneaky beats young and fit' it's telling you that us old un's are just mean and don't play fair, it's not that we say it was better in the past, the phrase says that while we may not be young and as fit as some we just don't play fair. It's nothing to do with how long we've been at it at all, it's that we recognise our failings as we age so play dirty to make up for it.


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## Mephisto (Mar 15, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Well if you read my comment 'old and sneaky beats young and fit' it's telling you that us old un's are just mean and don't play fair, it's not that we say it was better in the past, the phrase says that while we may not be young and as fit as some we just don't play fair. It's nothing to do with how long we've been at it at all, it's that we recognise our failings as we age so play dirty to make up for it.


Yeah I was just elaborating and sharing my thoughts. Not everything said was pertaining to your comment.


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## Tez3 (Mar 15, 2015)

Mephisto said:


> Yeah I was just elaborating and sharing my thoughts. Not everything said was pertaining to your comment.




Ok, but do remember you will be old one day


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## Jake104 (Mar 22, 2015)

Mephisto said:


> It's a nice axiom and quite respectful but rarely true. Perhaps it holds true when comparing the untrained to the trained but that's it. It's why we don't see 60 year old boxers and other fighters schooling the young bucks, because age and ability are not exponential. Strength and power are not to be underestimated and it takes colossal skill to overcome size and strength, and when a guy is big and strong as well as skilled, age and experience are not absolutely better. However, age and experience coupled with strength and size can be quite formidable, that's why we've seen quite a few fighters compete into ages older than other competitive sports.
> 
> That's one problem with martial arts, if you're into it long enough eventually you'll be an old guy still training martial arts. The funny thing is all the old guys I meet in martial arts all talk about how hard they trained back in the day and how much better they used to be, along with the martial arts scene as a whole. Some I believe, some I definitely don't believe. It's not hard to simply show up to a class and next thing you know 30 years have gone by, you may even have done a competition or two, but that doesn't mean you were ever that serious. This is just an observation. Age does not guarantee skill.


The older I get the meaner I get and less I have to loose. So when I'm 60. Why would I box a 20 something year old? When I could just wack him with a brick and,or run him over with my truck? Just saying


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## Mephisto (Mar 22, 2015)

Jake104 said:


> The older I get the meaner I get and less I have to loose. So when I'm 60. Why would I box a 20 something year old? When I could just wack him with a brick and,or run him over with my truck? Just saying


Well first you're gonna have to get a brick or truck into the ring. I'm not sure why you'd try to kill a training partner.


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## Jake104 (Mar 23, 2015)

Mephisto said:


> Well first you're gonna have to get a brick or truck into the ring. I'm not sure why you'd try to kill a training partner.


 Duh, parking lot outside the gym. Surprise attack. My Ninja skills will not fade with age! Only improve!


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## mograph (Mar 23, 2015)

Your truk fu is better than mine! I must seek revenge!


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## PiedmontChun (Mar 23, 2015)

Jake104 said:


> Duh, parking lot outside the gym. Surprise attack. My Ninja skills will not fade with age! Only improve!



Just as chain punching is important, one should never stop practicing their "Run-Fu" or "chain-stepping"......ancient secret sauce WC technique for when someone is too big or strong for you to fight and you have to get away quickly.


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## Vajramusti (Apr 1, 2015)

Lui Ming Fai Wix.com


Lui Ming Fai is one of the top disciples of Ho Kam Ming-Ip Man's outsanding disciple.  Lui started after my sifu Augustine Fong.. This documentary gives a decent introduction to Ho Kam Ming Wing Chun.

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