# how do you reconcile the systems?



## jazkiljok (Nov 6, 2002)

Isnt there a contradiction in the training methods of systema and kenpo/karate? How do those who say they cross train in both arts integrate them?  from what Ive read it would seem that you have no set tek in Systema and use intuitive body responses to aggressive stimulus by others (psychic and physical)- Kenpo being predicated on the repetition of set teks, firm curriculum (forms, basics, sets etc) would be structurally the opposite in methods- or so it would seem. Yes we say its the principles and concepts that count and the models are the teks to study such but it seems that Systema has obviously rejected that as counter productive in training (or?)

Further if Systema shows you how to punch, kick, grapple, and lock etc- why is Kenpo necessary to the mix at all? 

Whereas I can picture how relaxation and breathing exercises and sensitivity training can enhance your Kenpo- Im not too sure what Kenpo brings to Systema?

I use Kenpo as an example because it seems that a few kenpo practitioners on this forum are making their way over to systema- but anyone from another art whos crossed trained in it is welcome to comment as well.

Peace.


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## GouRonin (Nov 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by jazkiljok _
> *Isnt there a contradiction in the training methods of systema and kenpo/karate?*



Not really. Both systemas are looking to do the same thing. Use the principles and concepts to form their fighting art. The difference is the vehicle that each uses to get there. IMHO, EPAK has become too focused on these techniques when the techniques are really mini lessons for the concepts and principles.

Systema has taught me that there are certain things that I was taught in other arts that don't HAVE to happen.


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## MartialArtsGuy (Nov 7, 2002)

Hi everyone I'm new here, but after reading this thread, I had to join and put in my two cents. I do agree with you Gou, however I think it is easier to loose site of the point in American Kenpo than it is in Systema because of the long curriculum. After being involved in Kenpo for a few years I did notice that many people put too much of thier focus on the superficial memorization of the sets/forms/techniques. I personaly feel more comfortable with Systemas training methods because to me they get right to the point. In addition to this, I have found what I would consider to be holes in the kenpo system, and Systema fills them nicely. I do understand that an individuals needs can determine what system would be best suited to them, so Im not trying to say one is better than the other, but for me, systema is better.  

I also think there are a few conceptual differences between the two systems as well. What does everyone else think?


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## GouRonin (Nov 7, 2002)

Kenpo = "Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6."

Systema = "Better to wound 10 than kill one."

Thoughts?


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## Jackal (Nov 7, 2002)

> Isnt there a contradiction in the training methods of systema and kenpo/karate? How do those who say they cross train in both arts integrate them?



Having come from a MA background that largely consisted of Kempo training, I'd agree that the training is VERY contradictory between the two. However, I feel it's one-sided. You can use Systema concepts to, as Ben22 stated, fill the gaps and make your Kempo more smooth and effective. However, If you try to incorporate the rigid, explosive percussive movements of Kempo into a Systema classroom, You'll get crushed. I had that tension beaten out of me to the point of vomiting and being carried to my car on the way out of my first class at Vladimir's club. 

That was then.

Now, I feel I could blend the two smoothly, but I could never go back to memorizing techniques by the numbers. I'd have to go where the moment took me no matter what technique I was _supposed_ to do.



> Further if Systema shows you how to punch, kick, grapple, and lock etc- why is Kenpo necessary to the mix at all?



Because it's fun. I still love analyzing Kempo techniques and concepts. I can apply them to a much higher degree then I could before finding Systema, but there's still some firey satisfaction when you're beating someone like a drum. I can still perform "five swords", it just has a bit of a 'twist'.  Now you can't tell where one sword ends and another begins. I think that's the greatest chasm between Kempo and Systema training: Moves vs. Movement.

In Kempo, you've done 5 moves on one opponent, but in Systema you beat 5 opponents using only one continuous movement.

-Jackal


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## GouRonin (Nov 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Jackal _
> *You can use Systema concepts to fill the gaps and make your Kempo more smooth and effective. However, If you try to incorporate the rigid, explosive percussive movements of Kempo into a Systema classroom, You'll get crushed. I had that tension beaten out of me to the point of vomiting and being carried to my car on the way out of my first class at Vladimir's club. *



You see that a lot. There was this one guy who showed up and was a monster yet he had to stop at one point and sit down because he was going nutty but his actions were his own downfall. He was kicking his own @ss.



> _Originally posted by Jackal _
> *In Kempo, you've done 5 moves on one opponent, but in Systema you beat 5 opponents using only one continuous movement.*



...and that is what Kenpoists don't seem to understand, and when they do, it irks them.


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## tarabos (Nov 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Jackal _
> 
> *I think that's the greatest chasm between Kempo and Systema training: Moves vs. Movement.
> 
> *



i like that one...


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## tarabos (Nov 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> 
> *Kenpo = "Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6."
> 
> ...



#2


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## GouRonin (Nov 7, 2002)

I mean, I think you ought to kill them so they don't come back to bother you but then I like the idea of sending 10 guys off wounded to warn their friends so they can 1)tell more people not to mess with you or 2)bring more friends back so you can hurt more people.


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## tarabos (Nov 7, 2002)

guess if you get technical with the two quotes...they really aren't talking about the same thing. the kenpo phrase is saying better to kill or injure badly rather than be killed yourself, and the systema phrase is saying better that you injure someone rather than kill them.


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## Arthur (Nov 7, 2002)

Its better, I think to just plane have the skill to be able to decide how you want to handle a situation rather than have the situation control you.

Systema has helped tobring me closer to that ideal than anything I've studied before (and there was a lot of study before).

Oh and a big sarcastic thanks to Jackal, I'd managed to repress the memory of throwing up at my first class at Vladmir's  

Kempo is one of the few arts I didn't train in before Systema, but when I found Systema, I really didn't see any reason to continue practicing anything else.

the only reason I ever think about stuff from former artsis so I can play with old friends when they come to town, and also so I can better relate things to students with those backgrounds.

Arthur


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## MartialArtsGuy (Nov 7, 2002)

good point tabaros, I think both kenpo and systema can agree on if the situation demands that someone dies to bring about the end of the conflict, than it's better them than you. This is an unfortunate situation to be involved in but if you are defending your life or the lives of loved ones than lethal force may be required. I think the whole 10 wounded is better than 1 dead thing can be looked at a few different ways. It can hold a very humane meaning where one would injure to end a conflict but  not kill. However, I do know that in a war, it can be very demoralizing to the enemy if mass numbers of wounded come home. Because they are still alive, it is a more real reminder of the horror and can subdue the enemys will to fight. Vietnam was an example of this. Many civillians wanted the war over. This way not many have to die, but the war may end anyway. Therefore 10 wounded can be better than 1 dead. 

When it comes to "its better to be judged be 12 than carried by 6" I feel this simply means that its better to take action to defend yourself because whatever legal repercussions comeon to you its better thn death. Within reason of course, your not going to tear out someone throat because the pushed you. In that case you may face the death in the gas chamber and not on the street. Or I could e all wrong. what do you all think?


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## jazkiljok (Nov 8, 2002)

Thank you for all the responses so far-  from the gist of what Im reading I not sure if integration is really that popular as oppose to merely switching.

If youd all indulge me some further- how does systema teach you basics such as striking, kicking, punching, grappling etc.? and how do the basics in Systema differ from what you previously learned?

Does Systema have a method of practicing by oneself when not in class?  or is it much like judo- in that you can only do it when your with a partner?


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## GouRonin (Nov 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by jazkiljok _
> *If youd all indulge me some further- how does systema teach you basics such as striking, kicking, punching, grappling etc.? and how do the basics in Systema differ from what you previously learned?*



Well, I do know that when I was learning Kenpo basics I was told _"this is how you do it."_ and that was that. There was no other way. In Systema, if you can make it work then use it. 

In fact, tonight I was working out in some arnis with friends and when I was put into a lock I immediatly started to work out of it. The leader of the class smacked me and said, _"Stop it, I'm trying to show something here. You and your damn Systema."_



> _Originally posted by jazkiljok _
> *Does Systema have a method of practicing by oneself when not in class?  or is it much like judo- in that you can only do it when your with a partner? *



You can do Systema in everything. You ought to see me just goof around by myself or when I am in a large crowd at a bar. In fact, I do Systema on my dog. He loves it. He thinks we're playing.


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## Jay Bell (Nov 8, 2002)

> I mean, I think you ought to kill them so they don't come back to bother you



If you hurt them deep enough...they won't be back....for anyone.



> In fact, tonight I was working out in some arnis with friends and when I was put into a lock I immediatly started to work out of it. The leader of the class smacked me and said, "Stop it, I'm trying to show something here. You and your damn Systema."



Kinda funny...I've dealt with this also.  My Taijutsu school...my instructor was using me as uke and locked my arms down behind me.  He said, "Now try and escape."...so I did.  He did it again, locked them down hard and I couldn't figure out a way out...he was satisfied then


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## jazkiljok (Nov 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> 
> *Well, I do know that when I was learning Kenpo basics I was told "this is how you do it." and that was that. There was no other way. In Systema, if you can make it work then use it. *



ironic that? i read an Ed Parker article where he clearly states- Kenpo is different from the Japanese Arts in that it doesn't tell you there is only one way to do something. I guess systema may hold truer to Ed Parker then his own Kenpo.



> In fact, tonight I was working out in some arnis with friends and when I was put into a lock I immediatly started to work out of it. The leader of the class smacked me and said, _"Stop it, I'm trying to show something here. You and your damn Systema."_



well, perhaps he was trying to show something-- most of the time, for the purposes of instruction, it requires some cooperation of the student.  i mean he wasn't fighting. he was teaching- uh, right?



> You can do Systema in everything. You ought to see me just goof around by myself or when I am in a large crowd at a bar. In fact, I do Systema on my dog. He loves it. He thinks we're playing.



thanks for your candid responses. reminds me of when i used to study another secret martial art called Harpoliki Marxina--( i wonder where i put that horn...)


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## GouRonin (Nov 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by jazkiljok _
> *well, perhaps he was trying to show something-- most of the time, for the purposes of instruction, it requires some cooperation of the student.  i mean he wasn't fighting. he was teaching- uh, right?*



He was. I was just being a dink.


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