# How to handle KALI



## ob2c (Jul 29, 2003)

I've been working out with some Kali guys, doing full contact with padded sticks, and I'm getting eaten alive! They fight more squarely to their opponent. I'm fighting from a neutral bow. My problem is that when I swing across my body they are sucessfully attacking me to the outside and back. I've tried moving at the 45' that they favor, but they are still getting good hits on me. My right shoulder and arm is a mass of really ugly bruises, with a few to match on my ribs. How does Kenpo handle Kali fighters with sticks? I'm an intermediate level Kenpoist, so I havn't done any Kenpo stick work yet. But this is a lot of fun, so I keep going back. Any help would be appreciated.


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## arnisador (Jul 29, 2003)

Ask in the FMA forum too.

Is this single stick? You need to be light on your feet and keep your stick hand in motion (don't let it sit in one place or it'll be a target). Often the person countering has an advantage over the striker as the act of striking exposes so much of your arm as a target--are you alwys taking the offensive? If so try hanging back sometimes and reacting to them. You might want to work on some fakes (throw half a strike low, stop and rechamber, then throw one high) and aborts (stop your strike midway in response to their action).

Some people don't think to protect their lead leg but if they're front-on that won't help. If rules allow, you could try upsetting their game by crashing--do a roof block and charge in, taking the hit on your stick and getting into grappling range (but be carfeul of your stick hand while getting in!). Sometime holding your stick mostly vertical can help your defense but you may have to adjust your offense.

These are just some basic ideas--ask in the FMA forum for a view from your opponents' side!


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## Ender (Jul 29, 2003)

sounds like fun!!


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## ob2c (Jul 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *Is this single stick?*



Oh heck yes! I'd be a menace to myself with two of 'em!



> *Some people don't think to protect their lead leg*



Now that you mention it, my right knee is a little sore too. :disgust:

Thanks for the tips. I'll start working on some of those moves. I have an idea my 45' stance is giving me some trouble. But that is where I'm comfortable fighting, so I'd like to work it out and see if I can get it to work. I'll go over to the FMA guys when I get more time and see what they say. Right now I need to find that bottle of linament...

:jediduel:


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## rmcrobertson (Jul 30, 2003)

1. Maybe they're just far more advanced as students than you happen to be right now, and no change of technique can change that.

2. How bad are the bruises? 

3. "Moving on the 45," maybe I'm not getting it, but I thought this happened in kenpo anyway.

4. Beyond fun, you're doing this why?

5. Ya plays the other guy's game, ya usually gets hammered.

Interesting issue, though.


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## ob2c (Jul 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> 1. Maybe they're just far more advanced as students than you happen to be right now, and no change of technique can change that.



Most of them are, and the really advanced ones take it a little easy on me, as well as their junior student.



> 2. How bad are the bruises



They look worse than they are. But I'm a lot more colorful now than the average white guy. 



> 3. "Moving on the 45," maybe I'm not getting it, but I thought this happened in kenpo anyway.



Yes, it does. I tried going in at more acute angles and got destroyed, so I can see whre they prefer the 45' (though they also use other angles, of course). Just a preference, or emphasis.



> 4. Beyond fun, you're doing this why?



A. Good training, and I take that any time or place I find it.
B. Sometimes it is a good thing to step out of your comfort zone and expand your world.
C. I'm stupid! I do think it's fun! Probably the dumbest thing I've done lately is, when given the 10 second mark on a 2 min bout, I told the senior student (my opponent) to kick it up hard. I wanted to see what it was like to really go at it with someone who was good. That was a long 10 seconds! But I got it out of my system.



> 5. Ya plays the other guy's game, ya usually gets hammered.



True. But if you want to know what works, you have to play outside. I know our storm techniques work against an untrained fighter. And to a degree they work against these guys. They have similar techniques to a lot of ours. But when that stick comes at you fast, your main defense is evasion. I don't see them getting a lot of defensive techniques or blocks in on each other, and their stuff is designed for their style of fighting.



> Interesting issue, though.



It is definately interesting! You should try it, if you havn't already. It is an eye opener, kind of like fighting a grappler. The rules change a bit!


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## ProfessorKenpo (Jul 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ob2c _
> *
> It is definately interesting! You should try it, if you havn't already. It is an eye opener, kind of like fighting a grappler. The rules change a bit! *



I get the people on the mats with hockey helmets and two sticks apiece and go at it.     The damn Hockey helmets are broke right now but I do plan on either getting some more or fixing these to get back on it.    I usually leave with a few welts on my legs and my hands are killing me from getting them hit  so much.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## twinkletoes (Jul 31, 2003)

> Sometimes it is a good thing to step out of your comfort zone and expand your world.



So true!

Awesome thread.

~TT


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## kenpo2dabone (Jul 31, 2003)

I was just curious.

When you work out with them, do they allow other strikes as well or just the stick. I use to play around with the idea that if I give a guy a stick to hit me with, I have just reduced his weapons to one because all of the sudden they have a weapon in one hand and they forget that the have another hand and two feat. I personally would start using my other weapons if they allow it. If they do not not then the training is not realistic enough and I would not bother with it any more or make the suggestion to them and see what they say. BTW I never actually gave a guy something to hit me with in the street. It is more theory than anything else. But none the less make sure you are using all of your weapons and try kicking your to the inside where the stick is less likely to hurt you.

Just some thoughts,

Salute,
Mike Miller


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## ob2c (Jul 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> *The damn Hockey helmets are broke right now but I do plan on either getting some more or fixing these to get back on it.  *



Thanks for that info. I was looking at hockey helmets at Big5. I can get two fo them for less than one of the Kendo helmets, which is what these guys use. They also have fencing helmets, also expensive. But I have enough trouble getting training partners for Kenpo (I travel for instruction, and travel a bit to work out with these guys too). So I'd probably be wasting my money getting either type helmet.


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## ob2c (Jul 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kenpo2dabone _
> *When you work out with them, do they allow other strikes as well or just the stick.*



They use everything, including grappling. Their base is Kali, but they also train Mui Thai and Judo, as well as some other arts. And everyone there came in with prior experience in at least one other MA.



> *I personally would start using my other weapons if they allow it. ... make sure you are using all of your weapons and try kicking your to the inside where the stick is less likely to hurt you.*



Good advice, and I do need to do more of that. My problem has been that anything that moves forward gets tagged. I need to get more comfotable with the stick and set up my other strikes better, I think. I'm just not really sure right now how to make that work.

Thanks for the pointers.


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## twinkletoes (Jul 31, 2003)

Fencing helmets offer protection for most of the head, but are not really solid or durable.  Also, they tend to rattle a lot when you get hit, even with a tap.

I have a fencing mask, and I'm looking into kali headgear or hockey helmets.

~TT


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## MJS (Jul 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kenpo2dabone _
> *I was just curious.
> 
> When you work out with them, do they allow other strikes as well or just the stick. I use to play around with the idea that if I give a guy a stick to hit me with, I have just reduced his weapons to one because all of the sudden they have a weapon in one hand and they forget that the have another hand and two feat. I personally would start using my other weapons if they allow it. If they do not not then the training is not realistic enough and I would not bother with it any more or make the suggestion to them and see what they say. BTW I never actually gave a guy something to hit me with in the street. It is more theory than anything else. But none the less make sure you are using all of your weapons and try kicking your to the inside where the stick is less likely to hurt you.
> ...



The Dog Bros. are really big on this!  Check out their web site.  They recently put this cool clip on that shows some fights and some of the training that they do.  These guys are animals!!!  As little gear as possible, usually limited to the face protection and gloves.  Some wear elbow/knee pads, but I dont believe that its required.  They do everything once they being the match, including takedowns and grappling!

Mike


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 1, 2003)

Stop hoping kenpo will have a secret method of destroying Kali. Learn some of that kali or Escrima. You will find that they sacrafice posture for range and they have the return motion from hell. These guys can teach you more about the stick than Stick form 1 or whatever your kenpo school teaches.


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## ob2c (Aug 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MJS _
> *The Dog Bros. are really big on this!  Check out their web site.   ... cool clip on that shows some fights and some of the training that they do.  These guys are animals!!! *



It's been a while since I visited their site. I'll have to go back and check it out. You're right about them being animals, though!


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## ob2c (Aug 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *Stop hoping kenpo will have a secret method of destroying Kali. Learn some of that kali or Escrima.*



Secrets are just things you havn't yet discovered. Part of the reason for working with other styles is to discover how yours handles different attacks. But yes, I am learning some Kali. Unfortunately, I'm learning most of it the hard way!


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## Michael Billings (Aug 1, 2003)

Use a really long staff and beat the snot out of them.  That, a handgun, or automatic weapons.  Thrown chairs are also good weapons.

No seriously, when the dog brothers went up against weapons, they were "successful", in that context ... but had the most problem with the staff.  I read about it on their webpage somewhere.  Not sure if it was used single ended or double.  But either way, you get as much or more reach and don't have to "control" the power due to an edge, spikes, etc.


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## twinkletoes (Aug 1, 2003)

I don't think it was "the kenpo staff" that gave them trouble--it was fellow dogbrothers that used the staff.  Most of them are kali stylists (there are some krabi krabrong and other styles in there too).  

That hardly means one can "beat the snot out of them" just by using a staff.  And once they get inside, I hope you ditch the staff and pick up a rock.   

~TT


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## MJS (Aug 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *Use a really long staff and beat the snot out of them.  That, a handgun, or automatic weapons.  Thrown chairs are also good weapons.
> 
> No seriously, when the dog brothers went up against weapons, they were "successful", in that context ... but had the most problem with the staff.  I read about it on their webpage somewhere.  Not sure if it was used single ended or double.  But either way, you get as much or more reach and don't have to "control" the power due to an edge, spikes, etc. *



Its been a while since I've seen it, but I know that one of the tapes in their series has them going up against different weapons.  I'm sure there was something about the long staff, but I'd have to go back and check out the tape again.

Mike


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## Michael Billings (Aug 1, 2003)

... did you just have to reach to be rude about Kenpo?  Number one, I did not say Kenpo Staff, nor was I thinking about it, since I have Hung-Gar & Choi Li Fut staff sets also.  Hmmm.... I was not putting them down or attacking them.  Back it down and re-read the post.  I also suggested chairs, handguns and automatic weapons. 

Your biases are rubbing up against mine the wrong way.


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## Kenpodoc (Aug 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *Stop hoping kenpo will have a secret method of destroying Kali. Learn some of that kali or Escrima. You will find that they sacrafice posture for range and they have the return motion from hell. These guys can teach you more about the stick than Stick form 1 or whatever your kenpo school teaches. *



EPAK does contain the secrets to responding to Kali.  The rules and principles are there and can be modified to an opponent with a stick.  Unfortunately its not a simple magical transformation.  Stances change because a lead leg becomes to easy a target.  Checks remain important and very useful ways to control your opponents movements.  Dimensional control of your opponent remains important.  Learn the Kali response and approach but also look for something different to overcome their weaknesses. (all opponents have weaknesses.  It's our job to determine those weaknesses and turn them to our advantage.)

Fighting style is generally determined by whatever the rules of engagement are.  Kenpo contains the secrets to responding to these new situations.  Now unless you are a genius of motion like Mr. Parker you will have to analyze the situation and then repeatedly practice till you can do what you need to do. For me there are no magic solutions just hard work bruises and laughter when I screw up big time.

Respectfully Submitted,

Jeff


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## twinkletoes (Aug 1, 2003)

Michael,

I apologize if that's how my post sounded.  The only reason I mentioned "kenpo staff" was because I thought your title made your post imply it.  The rest of my post is not directed in any way personally, though I realize that saying "you" sounds it.  Mea culpa.  

I liked your suggestions of chairs, handguns, and automatic weapons.  It was in that same sense I added rocks.   

~TT


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## Michael Billings (Aug 1, 2003)

I was definitly having "one of those days" this afternoon ... and was ready to throw chairs.  I may have come on a bit strong also.  

It's all good!

-MB


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## twinkletoes (Aug 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *It's all good!*



It most certainly is, my man.   

~TT


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## ob2c (Aug 5, 2003)

Thanks for the help, guys! Between you and the FMA forum I got some good tips, and tonight went a lot better. I did modify my stance and footwork some. I did manage to get in and get some good elbow strikes and punches, as well as some good stick hits. I got dumped pretty hard once when we got in to grappling range, but I guess that's how you learn. My latest Kenpo training partner has quit, so I signed up for a month class with these guys. They said I could try some of my Kenpo on them, and I'll tell you that if I can make it work on these guys, it'll work for me on the street! They are tough, and seriouse ma's. It's a bit of a trip, and we'll see how it goes. Finding good workout partners is one of the few drawbacks to living in a rural area. Thanks again.


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## kenpo12 (Aug 13, 2003)

Here's a tip:

  If a guy on the street has two sticks, RUN!


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## Brother John (Aug 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> 5. Ya plays the other guy's game, ya usually gets hammered.
> [/B]



It's like a Kenpo guy asking: "Every time I go to wrestle with my Brazilian Jujitsu friend he eats my lunch...is Kenpo any good or what?"
Now don't get me wrong, I like and really appreciate a good Kali practitioner... it's good stuff no doubt about it. But if you do a Kali fight with Kali sticks with a Kali practitioner.... STUDY KALI. 

Don't box a boxer, don't wrestle a wrester

don't hustle a hustler...

Sam Ting...
Your Brother
John


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## Kenpodoc (Aug 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Brother John _
> *It's like a Kenpo guy asking: "Every time I go to wrestle with my Brazilian Jujitsu friend he eats my lunch...is Kenpo any good or what?"
> Now don't get me wrong, I like and really appreciate a good Kali practitioner... it's good stuff no doubt about it. But if you do a Kali fight with Kali sticks with a Kali practitioner.... STUDY KALI.
> 
> ...



Generally I agree, don't play the other guys game.  It's OK to study Kali, it's fun it's interesting and it's useful.  But to beat a Kali guy study Kenpo and it's intersection with Kali and force him to play your game.  Always keep your opponent off guard.


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## MJS (Aug 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Brother John _
> *It's like a Kenpo guy asking: "Every time I go to wrestle with my Brazilian Jujitsu friend he eats my lunch...is Kenpo any good or what?"
> Now don't get me wrong, I like and really appreciate a good Kali practitioner... it's good stuff no doubt about it. But if you do a Kali fight with Kali sticks with a Kali practitioner.... STUDY KALI.
> 
> ...



Good post!!!  

Mike


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## ob2c (Aug 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpodoc _
> *...to beat a Kali guy study Kenpo and it's intersection with Kali and force him to play your game. ...*



God advice!

The main 'intersection' seems to me to be the footwork. What I've come up with so far is to turn my neutral bow on a 45' axis. My problem is that it isn't 'natural' to me, so I end up working into a more acute angle and get myself whacked. But I'm getting better at it. After you get the angle right, all their footwork is some combination of our basics. They primarily use push drags, but will often do them more as a lunge with a wider stance. They step up the circle a lot too. Their elastico, or yield from a strike, sometimes resembles our cat, but is a little different in that it leans back. Of course, all our foot maneuvers work to a degree, but those seem to be the primary ones they use.

Another thing I'm having to get use to is not taking too close an angle when I go to the side. Get in too close and you lessen the effective power of the stick. You can strike with the punyo, but there is just something satisfying about a good solid whack with the tip of the stick! Also, if he reacts and retreats and strikes, I'm the one that gets whacked if I went in too close, where the wider angle allows me some room to react to his counter.

It's all a learning process. And I'm having fun with it, so the bruises are worth it, I guess. Thanks for the perspective.


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