# "Don't run with scissors ..."



## shesulsa (Jan 8, 2008)

How many times have you heard that from Mom and Dad?  Bu-uut ...

This thread by Cru brought up a good question in my mind.

How many of you train how to hold a knife when you're on the move so that should you fall you have the  minimum risk of damage to yourself or another person?

What is the grip you train with for when you're on the move with your knife out and not fighting?  When would that be, you might ask? Oh, perhaps when walking across the floor, or when you've grabbed your live blade and have to give chase? 

I think people have differing opinions on how to hold and for what reasons - please share!


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 8, 2008)

shesulsa said:


> How many times have you heard that from Mom and Dad? Bu-uut ...
> 
> This thread by Cru brought up a good question in my mind.
> 
> ...


 
In Instinctive Response Training we are always practicing and falling and getting up and rolling with tools in our hands whether they are a knife or otherwise. (sometimes longer tools which can change the dynamics even more)  We also practice going into rolls and picking up things on the ground.  It does change the dimension but once you are used to it then it just feels natural. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  As to grips well you need to practice with a forward and reverse grip and that way you are pretty well covered.  

Speaking of this I once did a demo for some LEO's friends out at a private range where I would roll and shoot or shoot from my back or right after a fall or also after a side breakfall.  Always raised their eyebrows because they had never seen anything like it and yes they wanted to learn.


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## tellner (Jan 8, 2008)

Normal safety rules help. If you're not actually using it, it goes back in the sheath or pocket. If I'm carrying a knife around in my hand it usually goes in a reverse grip along my forearm.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 8, 2008)

tellner said:


> Normal safety rules help. If you're not actually using it, it goes back in the sheath or pocket. If I'm carrying a knife around in my hand it usually goes in a reverse grip along my forearm.


 
I'm definately will Tellner on this that if you are not using it or not in a dynamic personal protection situation that it returns to it's sheath or pocket!


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## arnisador (Jan 8, 2008)

Yes, definitely--or at least gets folded if it's a folder!

You can only train so much for this--it's mostly common sense. The pointy end goes towards the other guy.


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## Carol (Jan 8, 2008)

Inserting the business end in to the bad guy makes one helluva breakfall


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## shesulsa (Jan 8, 2008)

I totally agree - and have seen students training with live blades walk across the mat, trip and almost fall. I've seen a lady walking with a hatchet trip and fall - fortunately she dropped the hatchet before her face hit the ground.

I've just seen people walk with unsheathed fixed blades, scissors, butcher knives, steak knives ... oh heck we could go on - meat forks, screwdrivers, chisels ... in such a manner that if they fell they could harm themselves.

Think about it - where do your hands go if you fall forward?  In front of you, usually, and quickly followed by your face and head.

Brian we do exercises similar to what you describe with trainers.

Anyone else?


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## tellner (Jan 8, 2008)

Nobody has discovered the outer limits of human carelessness.


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## SFC JeffJ (Jan 9, 2008)

While moving slow or quickly I tend to carry mine down my my thigh, tip down.  Old habit I picked up from when I went to culinary school where that was the mandatory way of carrying your knife.


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## shesulsa (Jan 9, 2008)

SFC JeffJ said:


> While moving slow or quickly I tend to carry mine down my my thigh, tip down.  Old habit I picked up from when I went to culinary school where that was the mandatory way of carrying your knife.


Blade to the rear ... correct?


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## SFC JeffJ (Jan 9, 2008)

shesulsa said:


> Blade to the rear ... correct?


Yep.


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## MA-Caver (Jan 9, 2008)

tellner said:


> Nobody has discovered the outer limits of human carelessness.



That's because it hasn't been born yet. 


If it had, we'd have a nuclear war by now.  

Seriously, people are always going to be careless. Don't think there's ever been anyone who hasn't been in one way or time or another. As already shown by this thread, training/practice helps prevent accidents, not all of them because they _do_ happen but it definitely minimizes the possibility. 

I've had near misses/stabbings in my early days and have never repeated the actions that led up to them. Been lucky? Or been careful? 

I've never ran with my knives (out), never had to when I think about it. But often times the knife/blade goes back into the pocket/sheath when it's not in use like Tellner, Brian and Arnisador has said... force of habit.


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## arnisador (Jan 9, 2008)

SFC JeffJ said:


> While moving slow or quickly I tend to carry mine down my my thigh, tip down.  Old habit I picked up from when I went to culinary school where that was the mandatory way of carrying your knife.



Isn't that to protect _others _(in a crowded kitchen) more than you?


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## shesulsa (Jan 9, 2008)

Ya know ... a couple things I wanted to bring up when someone mentioned they don't run with their knife in their hand;

1.  You don't necessarily have to be running with your knife to fall down.  Altercations involving knives (from what I have ascertained only through the tales of others - my situation was hardly a 'fight') are usually fast-paced.  You could trip over a rock or other unseen object near your feet (or even your very own feet - gah) and fall.

2.  If you have to go toe-to-toe with a knife wielder, have drawn as well and find yourself out-classed, the old "nike-do" could serve you well, no?  So I wonder about the efficacy of resheathing before you politely bow and excuse yourself before running; you're more likely, I think, to turn and RUN ... whether your knife is out or not.


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## SFC JeffJ (Jan 9, 2008)

arnisador said:


> Isn't that to protect _others _(in a crowded kitchen) more than you?


That's probably the main reason for it, but if I tripped and managed to stab myself, I'd rather do it in a big muscle than elsewhere.


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## MA-Caver (Jan 9, 2008)

shesulsa said:


> Ya know ... a couple things I wanted to bring up when someone mentioned they don't run with their knife in their hand;
> 
> 1.  You don't necessarily have to be running with your knife to fall down.  Altercations involving knives (from what I have ascertained only through the tales of others - my situation was hardly a 'fight') are usually fast-paced.  You could trip over a rock or other unseen object near your feet (or even your very own feet - gah) and fall.
> 
> 2.  If you have to go toe-to-toe with a knife wielder, have drawn as well and find yourself out-classed, the old "nike-do" could serve you well, no?  So I wonder about the efficacy of resheathing before you politely bow and excuse yourself before running; you're more likely, I think, to turn and RUN ... whether your knife is out or not.



This is very true. But I personally have not come across this situation. I've been in knife fights before (have the scars to prove it) but in each case I was aware always of where the blade(s) were at all times in relation to my own body mass. My aforementioned "near-misses/stabbings" were during practice/training with live blades. 
Turning and running like hell (with blade in hand) has been in my experience as well. To the best of my memory the blade ended up back in it's sheath before I realized that it was there. Like I said, force of habit, yea, even whilst running for one's life... (the other guy was pointing a gun).


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## shesulsa (Jan 9, 2008)

MA-Caver said:


> Turning and running like hell (with blade in hand) has been in my experience as well. To the best of my memory the blade ended up back in it's sheath before I realized that it was there. Like I said, force of habit, yea, even whilst running for one's life...


Fascinating - folder or fixed? Fixed, I assume ....


> (the other guy was pointing a gun).


Good choice, running. :asian:


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## SFC JeffJ (Jan 9, 2008)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> In Instinctive Response Training we are always practicing and falling and getting up and rolling with tools in our hands whether they are a knife or otherwise. (sometimes longer tools which can change the dynamics even more)  We also practice going into rolls and picking up things on the ground.  It does change the dimension but once you are used to it then it just feels natural.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





shesulsa said:


> Ya know ... a couple things I wanted to bring up when someone mentioned they don't run with their knife in their hand;
> 
> 1.  You don't necessarily have to be running with your knife to fall down.  Altercations involving knives (from what I have ascertained only through the tales of others - my situation was hardly a 'fight') are usually fast-paced.  You could trip over a rock or other unseen object near your feet (or even your very own feet - gah) and fall.
> 
> 2.  If you have to go toe-to-toe with a knife wielder, have drawn as well and find yourself out-classed, the old "nike-do" could serve you well, no?  So I wonder about the efficacy of resheathing before you politely bow and excuse yourself before running; you're more likely, I think, to turn and RUN ... whether your knife is out or not.



You know, I'm feeling like a bonehead right now.  I've never practiced my ukemi with a knife.  Time to get the chalk on the training knives and give it a go.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 9, 2008)

SFC JeffJ said:


> You know, I'm feeling like a bonehead right now. I've never practiced my ukemi with a knife. Time to get the chalk on the training knives and give it a go.


 
Nothing like some good knife trainers that are geared for chalk!  Which brand do you use?


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## SFC JeffJ (Jan 9, 2008)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Nothing like some good knife trainers that are geared for chalk!  Which brand do you use?


I just use the Cold Steel ones.  I have the one of the Recon Tanto cut down to the size of a folder and a couple of others.  I think I'll be starting this today.


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## MA-Caver (Jan 9, 2008)

shesulsa said:


> Fascinating - folder or fixed? Fixed, I assume ....


 You assumed correctly and without making either of us look like an ***  



shesulsa said:


> Good choice, running. :asian:


 Yeah well, I thought so too at the time. Even had the presence of mind to run in a zig-zag pattern so he couldn't draw a bead on me. Funny how the mind works under stress.


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## kaizasosei (Jan 9, 2008)

in addition to some other curious rules of movement that i have come to place upon myself, one of the things i take great care of is not to point swords blades or almost any sort of pointy thing at another person.  
there is no fixed reason for this.  basically, it symbolizes great care and respect for the other.  secondly, pointing a sword at someone may be something bad or maybe good. and because i cannot be sure i avoid it.  if i feel like i am ready to influence something for the better as training or exchange, then i am free to do whatever to communicate my understanding as best i can. 
it takes great care and skill to be so careful all the time.   sometimes, one cannot avoid or control so one needs to be flexible and read things intuitively not necessarily superstitiously.


j


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## MA-Caver (Jan 9, 2008)

kaizasosei said:


> in addition to some other curious rules of movement that i have come to place upon myself, one of the things i take great care of is not to point swords blades or almost any sort of pointy thing at another person.
> there is no fixed reason for this.  basically, it symbolizes great care and respect for the other.  secondly, pointing a sword at someone may be something bad or maybe good. and because i cannot be sure i avoid it.  if i feel like i am ready to influence something for the better as training or exchange, then i am free to do whatever to communicate my understanding as best i can.
> it takes great care and skill to be so careful all the time.   sometimes, one cannot avoid or control so one needs to be flexible and read things intuitively not necessarily superstitiously.
> j


Well, it's the same care and thought you give to a loaded gun. 
Back in the day it was a call to fight if you unsheathed your bladed weapon during a heated argument or for no particular reason. I reckon it's still that way.


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## arnisador (Jan 9, 2008)

shesulsa said:


> You don't necessarily have to be running with your knife to fall down.



Yeah, but this is pretty well covered by the basic rule of keeping the sharp end pointed at your opponent to discourage him from coming  in on you while you're disadvantaged. It's a fairly instinctive reaction to keep that knife away from you.



> So I wonder about the efficacy of resheathing before you politely bow and excuse yourself before running; you're more likely, I think, to turn and RUN ... whether your knife is out or not.



Running is a great option, but _turning your back_ may not be if he has a knife--at least, not until you have some distance. Remember, even if he isn't close enough to lunge and stab, some people will throw the knife and!

Closing/sheathing it first may not work or may not be advisable. I'd likely scoot back, facing my opponent, until I could be sure running was viable. Depending on many things I might not refold/resheath, in which case I'd hold it back along the forearm to avoid ripping open my own side (yes, this happens).


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