# Christian minister beaten by muslims



## Twin Fist (Mar 15, 2009)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1162039/Minister-beaten-clashing-Muslims-TV-show.html

A Christian minister who has had heated arguments with Muslims on his TV Gospel show has been brutally attacked by three men who ripped off his cross and warned: If you go back to the studio, well break your legs. 

The Reverend Noble Samuel was driving to the studio when a car pulled over in front of him. A man got out and came over to ask him directions in Urdu..........







but hey, it is just an isolated incident, right?


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## Empty Hands (Mar 15, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> but hey, it is just an isolated incident, right?



Do you have any evidence that it isn't?  Other than your dislike of Muslims, that is.


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## Twin Fist (Mar 15, 2009)

assumes facts not in evidence

i suggest a retraction EH,  your post might be taken as offensive and get you reported


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## Empty Hands (Mar 15, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> assumes facts not in evidence
> 
> i suggest a retraction EH,  your post might be taken as offensive and get you reported



Do you _really _want me to post the relevant links?  Are you so proud of your bigotry?  Or simply blind to it, perhaps.

In any case, what about your evidence?


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## Sukerkin (Mar 15, 2009)

It is, however, symptomatic of the wedge being driven into our society by extremist elements whose sole aim is the spread of their beliefs, at the expense of all others, by whatever means.

This is exactly the course that Christianity took from when it began to flex it's metaphorical muscles in Rome to when the Crusades took place. That faith 'grew' out that phase after enough lives had been spent (tho' some would like to see it return to such ways I fear). The extreme interpretations of Islam that are so plaguing the world now are 'new' - I don't expect a resolution any time soon.

As an aside, what is the right word for genocide based upon faith? Pogrom? Or is that just for anti-sematism?


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## Twin Fist (Mar 15, 2009)

EH,
i have NEVER said that I disliked muslims

that is simply not true.

I fond your post offensive, and it contains an ad hom attack.You called my a bigot. I am offended.

reported.

And I said, in english, that it was just an isolated incident. I am not making an assertion that it is anything more. Are you confused by chance?


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## Thesemindz (Mar 15, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1162039/Minister-beaten-clashing-Muslims-TV-show.html
> 
> A Christian minister who has had heated arguments with Muslims on his TV Gospel show has been brutally attacked by three men who ripped off his cross and warned: If you go back to the studio, well break your legs.
> 
> ...


 
From the news article it would seem to be a response by some individuals to the ideas he espoused on his television program. This seems to be a direct outgrowth of that confrontation.

Unless you have some evidence that this is part of a greater pattern of violent assaults it would seem to be an isolated incident.

Now, if your thesis is that some muslims commit crimes, I would agree. Some of alot of demographics commit crimes. If you feel that some muslim governments are fomenting hatred, I would agree. Many governments, including our own, foment hatred. If you feel that some mosques preach hatred, I would agree. There are many religious tradtions which preach hatred for that which is different. If you feel that some muslims from what are in many cases oppressive third world societies are violent and hostile to opposing view points, I would agree. You will always find some violence in any society, especially those in which individual freedoms, communication, and technology are all suppressed.

If you are arguing that all, or even most, muslims are hateful violent priest beating animals, I'd probably disagree.


-Rob


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## Thesemindz (Mar 15, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> assumes facts not in evidence
> 
> i suggest a retraction EH, your post might be taken as offensive and get you reported


 
I think we can clear up any allegations of offense on Empty Hands' part pretty easily.

How _do_ you feel about muslims? In general?


-Rob


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## elder999 (Mar 15, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> but hey, it is just an isolated incident, right?


 
Yes, just as this Hindu, beaten because the yahoos thought he was a muslim,:



> *(CBS/AP) *Police arrested three men accused of hogtying, beating and stabbing a pizza delivery man because they mistakenly believed he was Muslim.
> 
> Saurabh Bhalerao, 24, was attacked late Sunday while delivering pizza in New Bedford, about 60 miles south of Boston.
> 
> ...


 
and This Muslim student, who was beaten because Obama was going to win the election (??!!!):



> A national civil rights group is calling on the FBI to investigate an Election Night assault on a New York Muslim by a gang allegedly infuriated that Sen. Barack Obama was elected.
> Four white men allegedly attacked 17-year-old Ali Kamara, a Black Muslim, as he was walking to his Staten Island home the night Obama was elected.
> Kamara told police his assailants jumped out of a car and jumped him at about 10 p.m., The Staten Island Advance reported.


 
were "isolated incidents" as well.....


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## Thesemindz (Mar 15, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> And I said, in english, that it was just an isolated incident. I am not making an assertion that it is anything more. Are you confused by chance?


 
And unfortunately, no one here speaks sarcasm either.


-Rob


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## Twin Fist (Mar 15, 2009)

Go back and read what i wrote:




Twin Fist said:


> but hey, it is just an isolated incident, right?




I am not saying it wasnt, in fact, i clearly said in english that it is just an isolated incident.

BTW- I agree completely with YOUR post:

_Now, if your thesis is that some muslims commit crimes, I would agree. Some of alot of demographics commit crimes. If you feel that some muslim governments are fomenting hatred, I would agree. Many governments, including our own, foment hatred. If you feel that some mosques preach hatred, I would agree. There are many religious tradtions which preach hatred for that which is different. If you feel that some muslims from what are in many cases oppressive third world societies are violent and hostile to opposing view points, I would agree. You will always find some violence in any society, especially those in which individual freedoms, communication, and technology are all suppressed.

If you are arguing that all, or even most, muslims are hateful violent priest beating animals, I'd probably disagree.
_


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## Sukerkin (Mar 15, 2009)

Gentlemen, don't make me think that I am using that term ironically when I ask that you dial down the instant heat this thread is generating.

It is a perfectly valid topic for discussion but if all it is going to be used for is the imbedding of hooks in each other, I shall lock the thread down and report the whole shebang to the Steering Committee.

Mark A. Beardmore
MT Moderator


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## Twin Fist (Mar 15, 2009)

Boston, new York....

i thought the northeast was supposed to be an enlightened, tolerant, place.

i thought racism was just in the south.....

I am confused now.... my whole world view is shaken to the core...


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## Thesemindz (Mar 15, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> BTW- I agree completely with YOUR post:
> 
> _Now, if your thesis is that some muslims commit crimes, I would agree. Some of alot of demographics commit crimes. If you feel that some muslim governments are fomenting hatred, I would agree. Many governments, including our own, foment hatred. If you feel that some mosques preach hatred, I would agree. There are many religious tradtions which preach hatred for that which is different. If you feel that some muslims from what are in many cases oppressive third world societies are violent and hostile to opposing view points, I would agree. You will always find some violence in any society, especially those in which individual freedoms, communication, and technology are all suppressed._
> 
> _If you are arguing that all, or even most, muslims are hateful violent priest beating animals, I'd probably disagree._


 
Then we know where you stand, and Empty Hands probably just misunderstood your original post as being sarcastic, as I did.

For my part, if you say you meant what you said, I'll accept your explanation and apologize for my accusation of sarcasm. Perhaps I misread your intent, that can happen in this medium.


-Rob


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## Thesemindz (Mar 15, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> I am confused now.... my whole world view is shaken to the core...


 
That's always a good thing. For all of us.


-Rob


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## crushing (Mar 15, 2009)

Anyone else finding the juxtaposition of this and the Protest Culture Shifts to Religious Right thread interesting?

Somehow to the OP and others in the 'Protest' thread Phelps and his small clan can represent Christians and the religious right, but when someone hints that a few Muslims represent a more significant portion of the Muslim population (which is how I took the 'isolated incident' comment) the roles are reversed.


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## Twin Fist (Mar 15, 2009)

no, EH is thinking of a thread where i DID say that I think the problem is the religion, not the people

I dont like islam, it is well known.

he is erroneously making a leap.

"dislike of a thing equals dislike of people who like that thing"

I dont like the catholic church either, but I dont have a problem with catholics.


still, calling someone a bigot is against the rules.


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## Twin Fist (Mar 15, 2009)

thats an interesting point crushing.

the other thread somehow Phelps and his 5 followers suddenly represented "the right"

i didnt even say that, and I am accused of making those criminals represent all muslims

are we so afraid of being offensive to muslims these days that we jump on anything with even a HINT of anti-muslim or anti-islamic meaning?

interesting


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## Bob Hubbard (Mar 15, 2009)

Just a reminder that abuse of the RTM system is also against the rules, that our staff isn't here to baby sit or burp gassy babies, etc.

As to the topic, extremists and straight out dumb asses target those different.  

But as to a Christian minister beaten up by Muslims, or a Hindu beaten up by Christians because they thought he was Muslim......maybe it's time for both Christians and Muslims to grow the **** up.  Then again, what would I know? I only associate with pagans and witches.  You know, the group that both "pious, loving, understanding" faiths like to take out and stone, stab, or burn to death.


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## Sukerkin (Mar 15, 2009)

crushing said:


> Anyone else finding the juxtaposition of this and the Protest Culture Shifts to Religious Right thread interesting?
> 
> Somehow to the OP and others in the 'Protest' thread Phelps and his small clan can represent Christians and the religious right, but when someone hints that a few Muslims represent a more significant portion of the Muslim population (which is how I took the 'isolated incident' comment) the roles are reversed.


 

I just read that thread again, *Crushing*.  I believe (no pun intended) that you are drawing an erroneous conclusion and one that will not help get this thread back on a productive tack.

This could be an important discussion about the nature and prominence of extremist elements in social groups, if it is allowed to not devolve into a bout of faith defamation.

Please, all, try to keep your comments relevant to the OP and check your knives at the door.


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## Thesemindz (Mar 15, 2009)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Then again, what would I know? I only associate with pagans and witches. You know, the group that both "pious, loving, understanding" faiths like to take out and stone, stab, or burn to death.


 
If only you could invent a slower burning pagan, then we wouldn't have to burn so many to heat and light our homes.


-Rob


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## elder999 (Mar 15, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> Boston, new York....
> 
> i thought the northeast was supposed to be an enlightened, tolerant, place.
> 
> ...


 
Oh, okay.

THis Muslim woman was ejected from a *Louisiana* mall for wearing a hijab.

This church in *Jacksonville, Florida* posted a marquee message that said _"God loves you, Allah hates_...(that's kind of funny! :lol

This Muslim Man in *Clearwater, Florida* was beaten at a Sam's Club by a man screaming _"**** your Allah!**** your Mohammad!_ 

There, all better now? :lol:


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## crushing (Mar 15, 2009)

Sukerkin said:


> I just read that thread again, *Crushing*.  I believe (no pun intended) that you are drawing an erroneous conclusion and one that will not help get this thread back on a productive tack.
> 
> This could be an important discussion about the nature and prominence of extremist elements in social groups, if it is allowed to not devolve into a bout of faith defamation.
> 
> Please, all, try to keep your comments relevant to the OP and check your knives at the door.



Yes and thank you sir as Twin Fist clarified his "isolated incident" statement as I was composing my previous post.  I hope nothing I wrote was considered as "bringing a knife" or "devolving the thread into a bout of faith defamation".  I was sure I was contributing something useful to the discussion as the threads appeared to me to have similarities.


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## Thesemindz (Mar 15, 2009)

crushing said:


> Yes and thank you sir as Twin Fist clarified his "isolated incident" statement as I was composing my previous post. I hope nothing I wrote was considered as "bringing a knife" or "devolving the thread into a bout of faith defamation". I was sure I was contributing something useful to the discussion as the threads appeared to me to have similarities.


 
I don't know. I thought you made a good point and a valid contribution.


-Rob


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## Tez3 (Mar 15, 2009)

Without excusing the violence you don't actually know what the vicar was broadcasting about Muslims. 

Tolerance needs to come from all sides.


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## Twin Fist (Mar 15, 2009)

has that really been an issue in the last 300 years?



Bob Hubbard said:


> I only associate with pagans and witches.  You know, the group that both "pious, loving, understanding" faiths like to take out and stone, stab, or burn to death.


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## Gordon Nore (Mar 15, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Without excusing the violence you don't actually know what the vicar was broadcasting about Muslims.
> 
> Tolerance needs to come from all sides.



I did a quick search but couldn't find anything. Can you shed any light on the substance of his broadcasts, Tez?


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## Twin Fist (Mar 15, 2009)

it IS a very good point.

No one raised a stink when Phelps was considered a typical "right wing" person, they were just corrected.

if someone had claimed that the criminals in the OP were typical muslims, people would be raising hell.

that double standard is a BAD thing

Tez,
While I am a firm believer in the concept of "fightin' words" that being that there are some things you just dont say and not expect an *** kicking in return, religion shouldnt be on that list.


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## Tez3 (Mar 15, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> has that really been an issue in the last 300 years?


 
Yes they kill 'witches' still in several parts of the world. the last witchraft trial here was held during the Second World War.

http://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/Scotland-History/HelenDuncan.htm


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## Tez3 (Mar 15, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> it IS a very good point.
> 
> No one raised a stink when Phelps was considered a typical "right wing" person, they were just corrected.
> 
> ...


 
I did say it *doesn't* excuse the violence.


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## Twin Fist (Mar 15, 2009)

thats _SCOTLAND_, what do you expect??? LOL


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## Gordon Nore (Mar 15, 2009)

Bob Hubbard said:


> ...maybe it's time for both Christians and Muslims to grow the **** up...



Mostly, I would agree.

But I also think there's a bunch of haters out there who wanna hurt anybody who looks different. I wonder if religion is just the cover -- in many cases -- for people who just like to hurt other people.


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## grydth (Mar 15, 2009)

Gordon Nore said:


> Mostly, I would agree.
> 
> But I also think there's a bunch of haters out there who wanna hurt anybody who looks different. I wonder if religion is just the cover -- in many cases -- for people who just like to hurt other people.



You bet! There are nuts and haters all over who can't take responsibility for their malign thoughts and actions.... but "God" is on their side, so anything they do or say is okay. I have never been able to abide, "The Lord is with me, so I can * you" types.

You want to sow distraction and destruction? Do it on your own dime and leave God, Allah and Buddha out of it.

Funny how the low brow lunatics have so much in common with their fellow extremists a world away - but on the bright side, it is also wonderful that the majority of Christians, Muslims, Hindu, Buddist etc are really fine people who have so many decent traits in common. Let's hope that sane, decent and intelligent majority ignore the extremists and the bigots and concentrate on the good things all have in common.


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## Tez3 (Mar 15, 2009)

Gordon Nore said:


> I did a quick search but couldn't find anything. Can you shed any light on the substance of his broadcasts, Tez?


 
He dosen't preach in English so as I said we don't know what he said. they do however sing alot, a real lot! the songs go on for well over five minutes each!
http://noolmusic.com/google_videos/asian_gospel_show_by_rev_nobel_samuel.php

The satellite TV station itself has been fined a large amount for dodgy adverts, it also shows porn!


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## Empty Hands (Mar 15, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> The satellite TV station itself has been fined a large amount for dodgy adverts, it also shows porn!



Perhaps our Muslims were confused about what sort of _beating _they were supposed to be doing.


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## Tez3 (Mar 15, 2009)

Empty Hands said:


> Perhaps our Muslims were confused about what sort of _beating _they were supposed to be doing.


 
LOL! they may have just wanted the singing to stop!
 The porn may have had a bit to do with it though, I can't see why a Christian minister would have a show on a channel like that, it is a bit objectionable really!


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## Cryozombie (Mar 15, 2009)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Then again, what would I know? I only associate with pagans and witches.  You know, the group that both &quot;pious, loving, understanding&quot; faiths like to take out and stone, stab, or burn to death.



 Yeah cuz there is no hate, bias or Bigotry amongst those people... one has only to read the comments on Wrens Nest to see how tolerant THEY all are.  *rolls eyes*


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## Gordon Nore (Mar 15, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> He dosen't preach in English so as I said we don't know what he said. they do however sing alot, a real lot! the songs go on for well over five minutes each!
> http://noolmusic.com/google_videos/asian_gospel_show_by_rev_nobel_samuel.php



They seem cheerful enough, but it would help to know *what *they are singing.



> The satellite TV station itself has been fined a large amount for dodgy adverts, it also shows porn!



Well you can't just dangle that out there without any examples. What porn? Show it to me. Right now.


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## Empty Hands (Mar 15, 2009)

Cryozombie said:


> Yeah cuz there is no hate, bias or Bigotry amongst those people... *rolls eyes*



Truly.  I can't even shop at Hot Topic anymore without being persecuted.


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## Bob Hubbard (Mar 15, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> has that really been an issue in the last 300 years?


Here's a few.  Some time on google will reveal quite a few more.  I only went back 3 years, since I got crap previously when I went back 10....that whole "ancient history" argument since everyone's "growed up" so much since then.


*Please Evict Her: Her Witchcraft Is Making My Life A Hell On Earth*

Jan 22 
*Saudi Religious Police Get Tough On Black Magic*

5/21/08 
*Atheist Soldier Says His Higher-Ups In Iraq Didnt Like His Non-Christian Ways*

3/24/08 
*Man Killed On Mexico's Caribbean Coast For Casting An 'Evil Eye'*

9/9/07 
*Witch Fleeing Halifax After Friends Attacked, Family Swarmed*

7/24/07 
*'Witches' Tortured Over AIDS Deaths In PNG*

6/28/07 
*Christian Right Attacks Pagan Democratic Party Officer (updated)*

4/23/07 
*An Iraqi Massacre Rooted In Interfaith Love*

3/17/07 
*Pagans Suffer Ritual Abuse*

1/24/07 
*PNG Women Slain Over Sorcery Fears*


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## Bob Hubbard (Mar 15, 2009)

Cryozombie said:


> Yeah cuz there is no hate, bias or Bigotry amongst those people... one has only to read the comments on Wrens Nest to see how tolerant THEY all are.  *rolls eyes*


Actually, I find most of the comments there to be quite intelligent, and at a higher caliber than my local papers commentary.  But, there's wackaloos in every group, and the "fluffy bunny pagans" irk me quite a bit.


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## Thesemindz (Mar 15, 2009)

Bob Hubbard said:


> there's wackaloos in every group


 
Wait. What? We can't judge everybody in a group by a few isolated crazies? No fair!!!


-Rob


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## Gordon Nore (Mar 15, 2009)

Bob Hubbard said:


> 5/21/08
> *Atheist Soldier Says His Higher-Ups In Iraq Didnt Like His Non-Christian Ways*



This article, if accurately reported, is interesting:



> Hall kept those opinions to himself at the dinner. He says he declined to pray as respectfully as he could. When word got around the tables that he wouldn't pray, he was confronted by a senior-ranking staff sergeant, who demanded to know why. Hall explained that he was an atheist  then explained what an atheist was when the sergeant didn't understand...
> 
> Hall's fliers were ripped up or defaced. "'Fag, God loves you, you're going to hell,' all kinds of crazy ****...


Evil flourishes while men of good will do nothing.

You don't have to agree with someone to stick up for them. One or two soldiers step into the breach and say, "Leave him alone. He isn't hurting you." The behaviour here is exactly like people who have got their jockstraps in a twist over gay rights -- it just doesn't actually affect them, but they have to fight it just it's different from their beliefs.


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## Sukerkin (Mar 15, 2009)

Quite so, *Gordon*.  

I am depressed that a group of people that I think so highly of (that's *you* lot, my fellow MT members!) cannot get beyond the "well 'they' do xyz" stage on this topic.

That is so completely not the point.  What people of 'faith' who are not extremist nut-jobs need to deal with is what is done in the name of their particular mythology or lack of same.

Do I think that all Muslims are evil because of what those in the OP did?  No, of course I don't.  Do I think they did what they because of their interpretation of their faith?  Well, yes, I do.  I feel the same about those Christian 'skinned' loonies from the other mentioned thread.  I feel the same about various 'weird' things I've heard about certain pagan/atheist/satanic groups.

I can't stress enough, ladies and gentlemen, that debate can never amount to anything amongst those who absolutely refuse to see the point of view of those with whom they disagree.


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## crushing (Mar 15, 2009)

sukerkin said:


> i can't stress enough, ladies and gentlemen, that debate can never amount to anything amongst those who absolutely refuse to see the point of view of those with whom they disagree.



*Exactly!!!!!!*


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## tellner (Mar 16, 2009)

One gets beaten up after Christians starve hundreds of thousands of Muslims to death and then bomb and shoot hundreds of thousands more.


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## Hagakure (Mar 16, 2009)

Sukerkin said:


> I just read that thread again, *Crushing*. I believe (no pun intended) that you are drawing an erroneous conclusion and one that will not help get this thread back on a productive tack.
> 
> This could be an important discussion about the nature and prominence of extremist elements in social groups, i*f it is allowed to not devolve into a bout of faith defamation.*
> 
> Please, all, try to keep your comments relevant to the OP and check your knives at the door.


 
Oh, but it's SO much fun. 

I'm with BH on this, people of different faiths ought to learn to grow up and get along. I'm sure many do, but too many don't. It's all well and good saying "Ah, but it's only 1% of Muslims/Christians/Jews/X who commit such bad deeds". That's actually still likely to run into the low _millions_. Not much some may argue, I'd argue otherwise.


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## Andy Moynihan (Mar 16, 2009)

w-w-WHAT!?!?!???!?!???

People fight and kill each other over different religions?!?!??


I don't believe you.


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## Hagakure (Mar 16, 2009)

Andy Moynihan said:


> w-w-WHAT!?!?!???!?!???
> 
> People fight and kill each other over different religions?!?!??
> 
> ...


 
I KNOW, who'da thunk it eh? Crazy buggers.


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## Twin Fist (Mar 16, 2009)

*sigh*

should I even bother?

nope




tellner said:


> One gets beaten up after Christians starve hundreds of thousands of Muslims to death and then bomb and shoot hundreds of thousands more.


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## searcher (Mar 16, 2009)

I have been thinking of what to say since I read the first of this thread, along with what has been said in each post since.

I find it interesting to see how many of you turn on each other over the subject of religion.    I think it is pretty sad at best.    I thought that we, as martial artists, are supposed to be above these arguements.   I know that I have allowed myself to get involved in these little fights and for that I feel terrible.    So I will try to be a little more impartial and look at the facts.

1.) A Christian Minister was beaten by 3 Muslims.
2.) The 3 that did the beating threatened to come back ifhe didnot stop his ministry.
3.) The Minister has his program on a questionable television station.

I am sure there are other things that could go on the list, but I think these are enough to get a clean discussion going.

What part of these items above make it justifiable.   In what world does it make it the Ministers fault for getting beaten?   I didn't see a group of Christians beating a Muslim cleric(sorry for not knowing what to call the cleric by title).

So, my question is, why are so many people attacking Christians when it was a Christian being attacked?


Please understand, I am just trying to figure things out and not trying to start anything.   I am trying to be impartial.

Thank you, I hope my random thoughts are not to confusing.


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## elder999 (Mar 16, 2009)

searcher said:


> So, my question is, why are so many people attacking Christians when it was a Christian being attacked?


 
Who's attacking Christians?


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## Tez3 (Mar 16, 2009)

elder999 said:


> Who's attacking Christians?


 
Precisely, no one here was justifying attacks on anyone. No one was saying that it was right to attack anyone and no one was having a go at Christians.
I think perhaps,Searcher, you have been misreading the posts?


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## Gordon Nore (Mar 16, 2009)

tellner said:


> One gets beaten up after Christians starve hundreds of thousands of Muslims to death and then bomb and shoot hundreds of thousands more.



Tell,

You're referring to the despicable Iraq war. Are you saying the British and US troops are Christian troops, or that that is how they are perceived by Iraqis? It's a frightening proposition, isn't it? A six-year holy war.


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## Marginal (Mar 16, 2009)

Gordon Nore said:


> Tell,
> 
> You're referring to the despicable Iraq war. Are you saying the British and US troops are Christian troops, or that that is how they are perceived by Iraqis? It's a frightening proposition, isn't it? A six-year holy war.


That's basically how the right chose to market it.


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## Gordon Nore (Mar 16, 2009)

Marginal said:


> That's basically how the right chose to market it.



I'm sure there are enough nut cases out there that buy into the idea of sending allied troops into Iraq to fight Islam. I called attention to Tellner's remark because I don't think that has been said out loud until recently. The US and Britain find themselves in a holy war. In that context, events like the one described in the OP, though indefensible, are a natural outcome of religious extremism dictating policy.


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## Twin Fist (Mar 16, 2009)

the only people saying that iraq is a war on islam are the muslims, the only people saying it is a Holy War are isolated religious nutbarks in america and the liberal left.


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## Gordon Nore (Mar 16, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> the only people saying that iraq is a war on islam are the muslims,



Which Muslims?



> the only people saying it is a Holy War are isolated religious nutbarks in america and the liberal left.



So their opinions don't count? Perception is reality.

If people perceive it as a holy war, then that's what it is for them. Given that an abundance of arguments for going into the exercise have proven false, including the notion that allied forces would be seen like the liberators of France during WWII -- with champagne corks and blouse buttons popping -- then one is left with very few ways of describing this war.


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## Carol (Mar 16, 2009)

Sukerkin said:


> As an aside, what is the right word for genocide based upon faith? Pogrom? Or is that just for anti-sematism?



Pogrom works, and while the word is from Yiddish, it isn't restricted to anti-Semitism.  The 1984 massacre of thousands of Sikhs in the wake of Indira Gandhi's assasination is another example of a pogrom.  

Pogroms don't have to be based on faith, but when the fit hits the shan...they usually are.


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## Empty Hands (Mar 16, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> the only people saying it is a Holy War are isolated religious nutbarks in america and the liberal left.



And Lieutenant General William G. Boykin.


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## Joab (Mar 16, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1162039/Minister-beaten-clashing-Muslims-TV-show.html
> 
> A Christian minister who has had heated arguments with Muslims on his TV Gospel show has been brutally attacked by three men who ripped off his cross and warned: If you go back to the studio, well break your legs.
> 
> ...


 

I think we can all agree a brutal, unprovoked attack on anybody is a horrible thing regardless of their religion. While I am a Christian, I would find it just as repulsive if such an attack happened against a Muslim. I have worked with Muslims, I have become friends with Muslims. We didn't discuss religion a lot...


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## Marginal (Mar 16, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> the only people saying that iraq is a war on islam are the muslims, the only people saying it is a Holy War are isolated religious nutbarks in america and the liberal left.


The impression seems to keep coming form the same sources. Mainly Boykin and his missionaries. 

http://www.irregulartimes.com/holywarriorbush.html

Some of his quotes are strikingly familiar to what some folks were saying on one of the many, many Israel threads. 



> [FONT=new york, palatino, arial]_"...our roots are Judeo-Christian. Did I say Judeo-Christian? Yes. Judeo-Christian. That means we've got a commitment to Israel. That means it's a commitment we're never going to abandon._
> 
> _Ladies and gentlemen, we will never abandon Israel, we will never walk away from our commitment to Israel because our roots are there. Our religion came from Judaism, and therefore these radicals will hate us forever."_​


[/FONT]​


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