# Dam Toi form research



## Muwubu16858 (Aug 10, 2007)

My teacher recently showed me the hanja for the form Dam Toi, &#24392;&#33151;, which after some research, I found is really the tan tui forms created by chinese muslims. Then I took the info that Hwang Kee said he learned Dam Toi Ship Ee Ro and Tae Geuk Kwon. Well, we all know that Tae Geuk Kwon is the Korean for Tai Chi Chuan, but everyone has been kinda stumped on the Dam Toi part. Well, since finding that Dam Toi is Tan Tui, i went to try and discover the Ship Ee Ro Part. Ship Ee sounded a lot like 12 (Ship=10 and Ee=2) and i looked up the styles of Tan Tui. The two most common are 10 road and 12 road. The Korean pronounciation for road is Ro.

Dam Toi Ship Ee Ro is actually Tan Tui Shi Er Lu, or Spinging Legs 12 Road

&#24392;&#33151;&#21313;&#20108;&#36335; Tan Tui Shi Er Lu


----------



## Flying Crane (Aug 10, 2007)

Have you ever seen the 10 or 12 row tam tui done by a Chinese Stylist, and if so, how does it compare to the Korean version with that translated name?

I sometimes wonder if similar names get used, but it might not actually be the same form, or even a relative or descendant of the same form.  Names just get attached to things for different reasons.

How does the Korean Tae Geuk Kwon compare to any of the Chinese Tai Chi systems, like Yang, Chen, Sun, Wu, or Hao?  

Just curious, as I've never seen the Korean versions of these, and I'm wondering if they are actually related, or just share a similar name.


----------



## Muwubu16858 (Aug 10, 2007)

Of coarse they have their differences, but I've only seen my teacher do one of the tan tui forms,( he says there are several in the 12 road style)

From what I've seen, my teacher adds waist twist, and several other elements to the form. He told me he learned it from Oh Sae Joon, who was close to his teacher Hwang Kee until 1959. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huMEmA4giwU&mode=related&search

this link will show you some tan tui forms

most of the forms that Hwang Kee made like Chil Sung and Yuk Ro pick up a lot of influence from the Tai Chi and Tan Tui that GM Hwang had learned in China.


----------



## Flying Crane (Aug 10, 2007)

yes, I am familiar with the Chinese versions of Tam Tui, I'm actually in the middle of learning the 12 row form right now from Wong Jack Man lineage of Jing Mo.  I was wondering how similar the Korean versions are, as I have never seen those.  Are you aware of any video of the Korean version, or the Korean Tae Geuk Kwon?


----------



## Muwubu16858 (Aug 11, 2007)

sorry, no videos, as Hwang Kee only taught them to few of his early students. The only difference, I would say is that since my teacher learned from Oh Sae Joon, that we use our waist twist method behind all our movements (Just so you know, Y.M.C.A. style waist twist is a very rapid movement of the waist, way more intense than that of other styles that incorporate waist into their movements).


----------



## Muwubu16858 (Aug 12, 2007)

Oh, by the way, the Tae Geuk Kwon(Tai Chi Chuan) form is performed almost exactly like the chinese version. I'm sure it may have few subtle differences, as everyones body type is different, causing moves to change slightly


----------



## Flying Crane (Aug 13, 2007)

Muwubu16858 said:


> sorry, no videos, as Hwang Kee only taught them to few of his early students. The only difference, I would say is that since my teacher learned from Oh Sae Joon, that we use our waist twist method behind all our movements (Just so you know, Y.M.C.A. style waist twist is a very rapid movement of the waist, way more intense than that of other styles that incorporate waist into their movements).


 
I'd be interested in seeing it someday.


----------



## Flying Crane (Aug 13, 2007)

Muwubu16858 said:


> Oh, by the way, the Tae Geuk Kwon(Tai Chi Chuan) form is performed almost exactly like the chinese version. I'm sure it may have few subtle differences, as everyones body type is different, causing moves to change slightly


 

Do you happen to know which tai chi family this comes from?  It could be Chen, Yang, Sun, Wu, Hao?  These different families of Tai Chi Chuan can be fairly different from each other, Tai Chi is not a single standardized system in Chinese arts.


----------



## Muwubu16858 (Aug 14, 2007)

When my teacher learned it, it was the 1970's. At that time in the Moo Duk Kwan, for some reason, Hwang Kee felt it wasn't necessary to give facts on where he learned his techniques. From what he gave in his history book in 1995, he learned for several years from 1936 in Manchuria from a man name Yang Guk Jin. However, he only wrote the book in english, and never gave the hanja for the guys name, which is rather useless to us, since without it, you can't track the lineage. Tae Geuk Kwon form is the highest level form in our system, but I'm sure that means it was a intermediate or even beginner form from Tai Chi Chuan. I haven't learned it yet, as I myself am only 4th Dan with my teacher. the only forms ahead of my rank that I have learned are Ship Pal (Sei Pai[18]) and Woon Soo(Unsu[Cloud Hands]), which come from Okinawan styles of martial arts. I could go and guess it as Yang style, however, it is not in the best interest of correct history to do so. I only have seen it demonstrated once, so I didn't pick up on technique. Since there are many styles of Tai Chi, I'll have to wait to learn it and compare to others before I can come to a conclusion of which one it is.


----------



## Flying Crane (Aug 15, 2007)

Fair enough.  When you know more about it, I'd certainly appreciate if you share what you find out.  Thanks!


----------



## Muwubu16858 (Aug 19, 2007)

No problem.


----------



## JWLuiza (Sep 9, 2007)

Flying Crane said:


> Fair enough.  When you know more about it, I'd certainly appreciate if you share what you find out.  Thanks!



I'm 75% sure it is Yang Short Form Tai Chi Chuan...


----------

