# Home schooled kids removed from parents overseas...



## billc (Jan 25, 2012)

On my way to class tonight, radio host and constitutional law professor Hugh Hewitt interviewed a lawyer who works for the Alliance Defense Fund and their branch in Sweden.  Apparently, the governments in Sweden, Germany and several other European countries are taking children away from their parents if those parents home school their children.  Is this happening a lot in Europe?  If it is happening, why do the governments get away with this?  Perhaps someone could expand on this topic, it is pretty late already, need to sleep.


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## Tez3 (Jan 26, 2012)

No it doesn't happen a lot. It doesn't happen because children are home schooled, it happens because the children are abused or neglected.


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## granfire (Jan 26, 2012)

Last time I looked, home schooling was not a viable option in Germany.
That pretty much means the kid has to have it's behind in a school bench somewhere. If it doesn't, authorities get involved. And since it's not commonly done, one can assume there are nefarious reasons why the kid id not in school.


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## Jenna (Jan 26, 2012)

billcihak said:


> On my way to class tonight, radio host and constitutional law professor Hugh Hewitt interviewed a lawyer who works for the Alliance Defense Fund and their branch in Sweden.  Apparently, the governments in Sweden, Germany and several other European countries are taking children away from their parents if those parents home school their children.  Is this happening a lot in Europe?  If it is happening, why do the governments get away with this?  Perhaps someone could expand on this topic, it is pretty late already, need to sleep.


...Not so much in the UK.  I have read of this before as a problem in Germany in particular.


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## Tez3 (Jan 26, 2012)

Jenna said:


> ...Not so much in the UK. I have read of this before as a problem in Germany in particular.



It seems to depends on who is reporting the stories, the parents are invariably more vocal, most are the evangelical....I'm trying very hard to find polite words here... strident, half a dozen kids, homophobic, anti state types who may well be causing their children psychological damage.


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## granfire (Jan 26, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> It seems to depends on who is reporting the stories, the parents are invariably more vocal, most are the evangelical....I'm trying very hard to find polite words here... strident, half a dozen kids, homophobic, anti state types who may well be causing their children psychological damage.



That about sums it up.


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## Tez3 (Jan 26, 2012)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jan/27/german-home-schooling-family-asylum

"They said textbooks presented ideas and language that conflicted with their Christian beliefs, including slang terms for sex acts and images of vampires and witches, while the school offered what they described as ethics lessons from Islam, Buddhism and other religions"


I've seen the German school curriculum and it's far from anti Christian, when I lived there it was still a very Christian country, not too much in your face though and with their history they are striving to educate children in such a way they aren't brainwashed and can see the merits in other cultures. The last thing they want is any repeat of the past, they don't want the type of bigotry that a home schooled family like this can have with their disapproving religious views. I believe one of the reason Germany has outlawed home schools is to keep a check on any of the past anti semitism, homophobia and general extreme right wing hatred. It may not be what American are used to but then they don't have Germany's past. One must assume the Germans know best how to run their own country. If you don't live there you don't have to put up with their laws.


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## granfire (Jan 26, 2012)

I don't even think it's fear of subversive thought.
it's just how thing are done. When the kid turns 3 you send it to kinder garden, when it's 6 it goes to school, until at least 16. Then either to high school and college or off to learn a trade. Homeschooling is an alien concept as far as I can tell. 

Seems to work. The illiteracy rates are a good deal lower than the US... D)


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## ballen0351 (Jan 26, 2012)

granfire said:


> I don't even think it's fear of subversive thought.
> it's just how thing are done. When the kid turns 3 you send it to kinder garden, when it's 6 it goes to school, until at least 16. Then either to high school and college or off to learn a trade. Homeschooling is an alien concept as far as I can tell.
> 
> Seems to work. The illiteracy rates are a good deal lower than the US... D)


Ive never met a home school kid that couldnt read.  We have a family in our Dojo that home school and use Karate as the physical education requirement and these kids are very smart and extreamly polite and respectful.  I have met quite a few public high school kids and even graduates that couldnt write a simple victim witness statement.  They have also stopped teaching cursive in public schools teenagers cant even sign thier name any longer they print it out and look at you crazy when you say no I need your signature sign your name.


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## ballen0351 (Jan 26, 2012)

You guys claim to be so "open minded" yet as soon as someone says they are Christian you automatically blast them as homophobic and "general extreme right wing hatred", close minded, "strident, half a dozen kids, homophobic, anti state types who may well be causing their children psychological damage".  I dont see the same vile and hatred shown towards other religions.


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## granfire (Jan 26, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> You guys claim to be so "open minded" yet as soon as someone says they are Christian you automatically blast them as homophobic and "general extreme right wing hatred", close minded, "strident, half a dozen kids, homophobic, anti state types who may well be causing their children psychological damage".  I dont see the same vile and hatred shown towards other religions.





well, those 'Christians' who insist on home schooling are usually of that ilk, making sure the kids don't stray from the fold. 
There are a good many Christians that are not like that, heck the whole school is populated with them. 

But unless the school is really crappy, that is the reason for most to pull their kids out. Around here the religious funded private schools had a huge boom in the 70s, when the parents did not want their kids to be bussed across town to go to school with 'them people' 


However, in this context, In Germany (I don't dare speak about Sweden) it takes a lot of back bone to say 'I am Christian' unlike many parts of the US where it is as common as saying hello. But still, people who pull their kids out of school are considered odd, and in this context 'Christian' becomes suspect. You are not easily given a pass for homeschooling.


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## ballen0351 (Jan 26, 2012)

granfire said:


> well, those 'Christians' who insist on home schooling are usually of that ilk, making sure the kids don't stray from the fold.
> There are a good many Christians that are not like that, heck the whole school is populated with them.


Thats not true there are many people the choose to home school kids because in todays world public schools are becoming unsafe.  We have gangs in our middle schools here.  Drug dealers in our high schools.  Large racially divided fights break out all the time.  We have to install metal detectors and make kids use clear plastic back packs in our school here due to the numbers of guns being brought into our schools.  Ive considered having my kids home schooled due to my elementary age daughter being picked on because her daddy is a police officer.  Now my kids no to never talk about what daddy does for a living.  
There are also many that feel public schools are just not teaching our children enough they have dumbed down the standards to make sure everyone passes and they cant afford private schools so the choose to home school.



> But unless the school is really crappy, that is the reason for most to pull their kids out. Around here the religious funded private schools had a huge boom in the 70s, when the parents did not want their kids to be bussed across town to go to school with 'them people'


Thats still a concern today only "them people" today refer to drug dealers and gangs not a race or religion.  We also have a group here that home school because they feel public schools have too large of a carbon foot print and refuse to support the polution of all the papers used in our schools.  The regulary are seen protesting the ASPCA for "jailing" animals and not releasing them because as they say "Dogs are people too"  so there are all kinds that home school for all different reasons but you all went right to the "narrow minded christians".  




> However, in this context, In Germany (I don't dare speak about Sweden) it takes a lot of back bone to say 'I am Christian' unlike many parts of the US where it is as common as saying hello. But still, people who pull their kids out of school are considered odd, and in this context 'Christian' becomes suspect. You are not easily given a pass for homeschooling.


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## granfire (Jan 26, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> Thats not true there are many people the choose to home school kids because in todays world public schools are becoming unsafe.  We have gangs in our middle schools here.  Drug dealers in our high schools.  Large racially divided fights break out all the time.  We have to install metal detectors and make kids use clear plastic back packs in our school here due to the numbers of guns being brought into our schools.  Ive considered having my kids home schooled due to my elementary age daughter being picked on because her daddy is a police officer.  Now my kids no to never talk about what daddy does for a living.
> There are also many that feel public schools are just not teaching our children enough they have dumbed down the standards to make sure everyone passes and they cant afford private schools so the choose to home school.


I said 'if the school isn't crap'
Yes, I understand there can be a problem with such, drugs and violence. However it is probably not the norm (though even here in Podunk we got our resident drug dealer in the school)





> Thats still a concern today only "them people" today refer to drug dealers and gangs not a race or religion.  We also have a group here that home school because they feel public schools have too large of a carbon foot print and refuse to support the polution of all the papers used in our schools.  The regulary are seen protesting the ASPCA for "jailing" animals and not releasing them because as they say "Dogs are people too"  so there are all kinds that home school for all different reasons but you all went right to the "narrow minded christians".



In the 70s it was not drug dealers who were 'them people'
If I get any more precise you call me a racist again. 
And of course you have your run of the mill nut bags. Also not a group of people who should be allowed to limit their children's exposure to the real world. 

Thank you for proving the point.


however, I think it was hinted in the article of billi's majikal link skillz that religion was a point for the people to home school. 
Sweden and Germany are very different than the US.

(also, in some countries, education of teachers is not an after thought. I had 2 teachers in High School who had earned their doctors. You dn't see subs that canbarely spell their own names over there)


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## ballen0351 (Jan 26, 2012)

granfire said:


> In the 70s it was not drug dealers who were 'them people'
> If I get any more precise you call me a racist again.



Thats whay I said today "them People" are drug dealers I understood what you ment.


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## billc (Jan 26, 2012)

Here is an article on the new home schooling laws in Sweden.  The article is from 2010, and at first glance, it looks like they are targeting people who are religous.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/jul/18/home-school-ban-in-sweden-forces-families-to-mull-/?page=all



> The





> Swedish Liberal Party  pushed a new 1,500-page schooling law through last month one paragraph  of which will make home schooling as an expression of religion or  philosophy effectively impossible for Swedish families, other than in  &#8220;exceptional circumstances&#8221; such as health issues or distance from a  public school. The law also severely restricts religious practice in Sweden&#8217;s &#8220;confessional&#8221; schools.



And this part from the article:



> Unlike in the U.S., Sweden&#8217;s  home-schoolers do not fit a particular religious profile and are about  as secular as the rest of the country but favor an educational style  different from what Sweden&#8217;s state schools deliver.


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## decepticon (Jan 26, 2012)

We are Christians and we homeschool our only child. However those are the only similarities I can see between us and the "ilk" previously described. It is incorrect and offensive to tar all of us with the same brush.

It is interesting to me that many here seem to feel that the German government is justified in determining how people should indoctrinate their children (or not). Isn't the government taking control of how parents teach their children to think part of the reason the trouble started there before? A telling facet of a government is how they deal with people who do not share the prevailing/politically correct beliefs.

In my experience during the 10 years I have been homeschooling, the only unifying factor that I can find among homeschooling families is a strong sense of independence. After that, it seems that they are all over the board. All religions, all ethnic backgrounds, conservative and liberal and everything in between, a wide range of educational, economic, and social goals for their children, and they experience varying degrees of success in attaining those goals. Some small groups may stand out as more colorful than others, but they in no way represent the wider majority of homeschoolers.

It seems to me that on the international scene, homeschooling is often used as an excuse to persecute families that are otherwise not fitting in with the government program. The root problem rarely has much to do with the actual education of the children and much to do with a dislike of the politics and beliefs of the parents.

BTW, I have met at least 8 different homeschoolers at the dojo where we train. For those school owners looking for another demographic group to which to market, I would certainly encourage you to consider tapping into your local homeschooling community.


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## Tez3 (Jan 26, 2012)

As I understand it Christianity comes in many flavours, strange how when one says something about one certain type of Christian it's assumed that it's an attack on all, far from it. 
I'm always curious why people get on their high horse about something that happens in another country, I lived there for three years, didn't see anything wrong with the school system, it was liberal, gave children a good all round education, tried to be aware of ethnic diversity, didn't want children brainwashed by one type of one faith. It's that last that theses parents of one particular church are complaing about, they also complain about playing cards, horoscopes, Halloween type things, fairy stories, Harry Potter, yoga and martial arts. Worse still to many people's minds as parts of Germany are staunchly Roman Catholic (the town I lived in was, here, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weeze ) they believe and preach the Pope is the Anti Christ. Not very tolerant. Far from the government brainwashing and wanting the children indoctrinated, these children are by their parents. They hate Catholics and believe everyone who doesn't believe as they do will go to hell, they also picket synagogues and places of worship for other faiths. I believe you have the same type of people who turn up at military funerals rejoicing at another dead soldier. Perhaps now you know what I'm talking about. I did actually say that it was a type rather than Christians so stop being offended, no one was saying it was all Christians, it was a certain type of them.


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## ballen0351 (Jan 26, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> As I understand it Christianity comes in many flavours, strange how when one says something about one certain type of Christian it's assumed that it's an attack on all, far from it.


Maybe when you lumped ALL home schoolers into this group including non-extreamist christians that just want to teach thier own kids.


> I'm always curious why people get on their high horse about something that happens in another country


 you mean like all the comments about the elections in the US from non-American?  kInda like that?  Its a forum someone posted a topic and people responded to it I didnt know we were only allowed to comment on topics that are related to where we live.


> I lived there for three years, didn't see anything wrong with the school system, it was liberal, gave children a good all round education, tried to be aware of ethnic diversity, didn't want children brainwashed by one type of one faith. It's that last that theses parents of one particular church are complaing about, they also complain about playing cards, horoscopes, Halloween type things, fairy stories, Harry Potter, yoga and martial arts.


  So what gives the state the right to decide how to teach your children?  As long as the are fed, housed, loved, who cares what religion they are taught?  Muslims make there daughters cover thier faces why is that ok but telling your children that sex should be saved until your married and non-believers will not be going to heaven is so wrong?


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## Tez3 (Jan 26, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> Maybe when you lumped ALL home schoolers into this group including non-extreamist christians that just want to teach thier own kids.
> you mean like all the comments about the elections in the US from non-American? kInda like that? Its a forum someone posted a topic and people responded to it I didnt know we were only allowed to comment on topics that are related to where we live.
> So what gives the state the right to decide how to teach your children? As long as the are fed, housed, loved, who cares what religion they are taught? Muslims make there daughters cover thier faces why is that ok but telling your children that sex should be saved until your married and non-believers will not be going to heaven is so wrong?



It matters what religion is taught when that 'religion' is hatred. You did read the bit about how they picket synagogues and Muslim places of worship? How they teach the Pope is the Anti Christ?

Comments made by non Americans on the American elections aren't criticisms and condemnation. The comments are one thing, getting on your high horse is another. 

'The State' means something different to Europeans than to Americans. We pay for the schools ( although many countries aren't states in Europe they are democratic monarchies, the UK isn't a state.) and we decide what is taught, the 'state' doesn't. 

I made no mention of sex. I did however mention the hatred these people have for others including fellow Christians. Tell your children what you want, it's when you tell me that I'm going to hell that I complain. If you read what I wrote *I said they tell people of other religions (and none) that they will go to hell*, they go out in the streets and buttonhole you to spit it in your face. If they want to left alone to teach their children what they want they have to leave the rest of us alone to teach what we want to our children, fair's fair. 

I didn't lump all home schoolers in together, I was talking about those in the article I linked to. 

No wonder there's strife when people read things into other's comments something that isn't there.


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## granfire (Jan 26, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> Maybe when you lumped ALL home schoolers into this group including non-extreamist christians that just want to teach thier own kids.
> you mean like all the comments about the elections in the US from non-American?  kInda like that?  Its a forum someone posted a topic and people responded to it I didnt know we were only allowed to comment on topics that are related to where we live.
> So what gives the state the right to decide how to teach your children?  As long as the are fed, housed, loved, who cares what religion they are taught?  Muslims make there daughters cover thier faces why is that ok but telling your children that sex should be saved until your married and non-believers will not be going to heaven is so wrong?




Well, non-Americans are very much affected by the outcome of the US elections. I know it is hard to comprehend, but there it is. 

As to religion, the state does not give a crap about what religion somebody is. They do however demand that the _education_ is not affected by it. 
You know, like trying to pass of the intelligent design and creationism as science.
Or lack of tolerance towards other people of other denomination, let alone faith.

In Germany there used to be religion class: Protestant and catholic. Later on, in the 80s ethics was added as choice. You choose. Children of other faiths were exempt from having to attend religion, they usually took ethics. And no, don't ask, I have no idea what either is supposed to accomplish. Ethics was some anthroposophical junk, I am assuming because the teacher was a jerk...

But generally, there is no pressure one way or another about religion. But you can't make that the sole base of education.


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## decepticon (Jan 26, 2012)

granfire said:


> You know, like trying to pass of the intelligent design and creationism as science.



We don't try to pass intelligent design and creationism off as science. We teach them as truth! 

We teach science as fact or as theory, depending on whether it has been proven through replicable studies or not. The reality is that scientific "truth" does change over time - think of the fate of the poor little "planet", Pluto.

Before settling down to parenting, I was a marine biologist and found my Christian beliefs to be completely compatible with my scientific work, so long as I didn't confuse physical laws and scientific theories.

Regarding taking offense, I was actually referring to a previous post that stereotyped Christian homeschoolers as being of a certain "ilk", which didn't fit my family nor most of the other homeschool or Christian families I know. I commented to clarify that we are not all the same. It is likely that I probably wouldn't see eye to eye religiously with the German family in question. However, I do resent being lumped together with them and others into a category of 6+ kids, homophobic, illiterates due only to my religion and educational choice.

Although I have visited various parts of Europe, I have not had the opportunity to live there and have no first hand knowledge of the German educational system. How does the German government handle the situation with other groups with intense beliefs that are contrary to government policies? Neo-nazis, polygamists, various unusual cultic groups? Do they remove their children even though the children attend the public school system or an approved private school? 

I definitely think it is mistaken to assume that parents cannot have immense sway over their children's beliefs even if they attend public schooling. Just as I think it is not automatic that children will adopt the views of their parents - if so, rebellion against elders would be nonexistant! (And the poor poster with chopsticks sticking out of his kid's trombone could have avoided that fiasco!)

Truly, I think the issue is one of dealing with parents teaching their children beliefs that a government doesn't like. There has been no mention of the kids' academic issues. This is not about academic education, it is about indoctrination. And if that is truly the case, then homeschooling has little to do with the situation. A child in a private, religious school (or even one based on a philosophy, extremely liberal for example) could easily absorb a particular way of thinking. Again, not just a homeschool thing.

Taking the example of Catholicism, as previously mentioned... If children are born into a Catholic family, have Catholic relatives, live in a predominantly Catholic area, attend a government-permitted parochial school (or maybe even live at a parochial boarding school), go to Catholic church, belong to Catholic kids' clubs, and socialize at Catholic events, how are they being any less indoctrinated than a fundamentalist protestant child who is being homeschooled? Is the first child any less isolated or indoctrinated than the second? So why is it okay to remove the second child from his home but the first can be left alone?

There is definitely more here than meets the eye. And stereotyping any related group or taking offense that someone has taken offense merely muddies the waters.


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## Tez3 (Jan 26, 2012)

decepticon said:


> We don't try to pass intelligent design and creationism off as science. We teach them as truth!
> 
> We teach science as fact or as theory, depending on whether it has been proven through replicable studies or not. The reality is that scientific "truth" does change over time - think of the fate of the poor little "planet", Pluto.
> 
> ...




 I think you are missing the point. It's not about indoctrination, it's about forcing your views on others.
 I didn't lump Christians into one group, I specified exactly who I was talking about. 

The fundamentalists can teach their children whatever they want, however what they cannot do is then go out into the streets and force that view on others. The Roman Catholic families may or may not be indoctrinating their children but those Catholic children don't have to and shouldn't have to be told by others that they will go to hell because they don't believe what the fundamentalists do. Now the fundamentalists may believe we are going to hell, up to them but they don't have the right to push that onto others.. Don't tell Catholics their Pope is the Anti Christ, don't tell schools that have children reading Harry Potter are going to hell, or the child that dresses as a witch for Karnival is going to hell. Tolerance and each to their own is what the German authorities want, these families disagree, they want certain things taught and not others...*to everyone*, it doesn't happen, isn't going to happen, so they take their children out of school, that's illegal in Germany, so they are breaking the law.

The reason they are taking their children out of school is that *they want the schools to teach specifically what they believe *because they think they are the only ones who are right. Home schooling isn't the issue here, it's almost incidental. It's a push by fundamentalists to have the schools curriculum changed to suit them, it's never going to happen, it remains 'open' so the parents 'rebel', claim it's them being persecuted for their beliefs and make a big issue about it. So far it seems to be working and there's sympathy for them while the big bad German authorites are accused of picking on these families because of their beliefs, when what the Germans want is the teaching of tolerence and diversity.
These parents should set up their own school where they can teach what they wish just *not to everyone*.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_school


_"The right to create private schools in in Germany is in Article 7, Paragraph 4 of the Grundgesetz and cannot be suspended even in a state of emergency. It is also not possible to abolish these rights. This unusual protection of private schools was implemented to protect these schools from a second Gleichschaltung or similar event in the future. Still, they are less common than in many other countries._
_There are two types of private schools in Germany, Ersatzschulen (literally: substitute schools) and Ergänzungsschulen (literally: auxiliary schools). There are also private Hochschulen (private colleges and universities) in Germany, but similar to the UK, the term private school is almost never used of universities or other tertiary institutions._
_Ersatzschulen are ordinary primary or secondary schools, which are run by private individuals, private organizations or religious groups. These schools offer the same types of diplomas as public schools. Ersatzschulen lack the freedom to operate completely outside of government regulation. Teachers at Ersatzschulen must have at least the same education and at least the same wages as teachers at public schools, an Ersatzschule must have at least the same academic standards as a public school and Article 7, Paragraph 4 of the Grundgesetz, also forbids segregation of pupils according to the means of their parents (the so called Sonderungsverbot). Therefore, most Ersatzschulen have very low tuition fees and/or offer scholarships, compared to most other Western European countries. However, it is not possible to finance these schools with such low tuition fees, which is why all German Ersatzschulen are additionally financed with public funds. The percentages of public money could reach 100% of the personnel expenditures. Nevertheless, Private Schools became insolvent in the past in Germany._
_Ergänzungsschulen are secondary or post-secondary (non-tertiary) schools, which are run by private individuals, private organizations or rarely, religious groups and offer a type of education which is not available at public schools. Most of these schools are vocational schools. However, these vocational schools are not part of the German dual education system. Ergänzungsschulen have the freedom to operate outside of government regulation and are funded in whole by charging their students tuition fees"_


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## ballen0351 (Jan 26, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> I think you are missing the point. It's not about indoctrination, it's about forcing your views on others.


Thats exactly what public schools do.  When you home school a kid who are you forcing your views on other then your own kids?


> I didn't lump Christians into one group, I specified exactly who I was talking about.



When you lumped all homeschoolers as crazys then you also lumped all christians that home school into the same catagory.  There are plenty of homeschooled children that are not parents of hateful nut jobs 



> The fundamentalists can teach their children whatever they want, however what they cannot do is then go out into the streets and force that view on others.


  Who are they forcing there views on?  By simply speaking thier minds.  You choose to listen and agree or ignore and walk on.  


> The Roman Catholic families may or may not be indoctrinating their children but those Catholic children don't have to and shouldn't have to be told by others that they will go to hell because they don't believe what the fundamentalists do. Now the fundamentalists may believe we are going to hell, up to them but they don't have the right to push that onto others.. Don't tell Catholics their Pope is the Anti Christ, don't tell schools that have children reading Harry Potter are going to hell, or the child that dresses as a witch for Karnival is going to hell.


  Its not just fundamentalists christians that believe the above many other religions do as well.  


> Tolerance and each to their own is what the German authorities want, these families disagree, they want certain things taught and not others...*to everyone*, it doesn't happen, isn't going to happen, so they take their children out of school, that's illegal in Germany, so they are breaking the law.


You cant legislate tolerance if it were that easy we would never have another war or fight again.  The point was not that its illegal its why does the Govt fell it has the right to tell parents what to teach thier kids.



> The reason they are taking their children out of school is that *they want the schools to teach specifically what they believe *because they think they are the only ones who are right.


And you dont teach your kids your beliefs and morals?


> Home schooling isn't the issue here, it's almost incidental. It's a push by fundamentalists to have the schools curriculum changed to suit them, it's never going to happen, it remains 'open' so the parents 'rebel', claim it's them being persecuted for their beliefs and make a big issue about it.



In a way they are being punished for their beliefs and are not allowed to teach their children what they believe to be true.



> So far it seems to be working and there's sympathy for them while the big bad German authorites are accused of picking on these families because of their beliefs, when what the Germans want is the teaching of tolerence and diversity.
> These parents should set up their own school where they can teach what they wish just *not to everyone*.


They just want to teach their own kids I have not seen anything that say they want to teach everyone.


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## Tez3 (Jan 26, 2012)

Another article showing how political this is rather than just over 'home schooling'
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,674492,00.html


As is pointed out while children have to attend school there's a lot of choice about what school they can go to, all it would take actually is one or two families especially as they have a few children,  to set up a school and have it registered. How easy is that? they can be schooled at home but in a registered school with the educational standards set as they should be by the education authorities, then the lessons these parents want to teach their children can be taught and they can be away from the rest of 'nasty' humanity. However they chose to go down the road of appearing as martyrs.

It wasn't this German families idea to seek political asylum in America it was an American working with a group with a big agenda.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/may/16/texas-schools-rewrites-us-history

this is what the German fundamentalists have as their gaol, that they can do what has happened in this school in Texas. Home schooling is the excuse they use when what they want is the German schools to change to their way of thinking.


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## ballen0351 (Jan 26, 2012)

granfire said:


> Well, non-Americans are very much affected by the outcome of the US elections. I know it is hard to comprehend, but there it is.


Oh ok so its ok to comment on American but its not a two way street got it I didnt know the rules before.



> As to religion, the state does not give a crap about what religion somebody is. They do however demand that the _education_ is not affected by it.


 Thats why most places have a set of things your required to teach


> You know, like trying to pass of the intelligent design and creationism as science.
> Or lack of tolerance towards other people of other denomination, let alone faith.


Yeah cause we all started as a blob of goo and eventually the little goo blobs smashed into eachother and everthing just randomly over time formed a Human is so much more believeable. Psss and dont ask where the goo came from cause we havent figured that out yet


> In Germany there used to be religion class: Protestant and catholic. Later on, in the 80s ethics was added as choice. You choose. Children of other faiths were exempt from having to attend religion, they usually took ethics. And no, don't ask, I have no idea what either is supposed to accomplish. Ethics was some anthroposophical junk, I am assuming because the teacher was a jerk...
> 
> But generally, there is no pressure one way or another about religion. But you can't make that the sole base of education.


Nobody is saying it should be the sole basis as I see it people only want the right to teach their own kids.


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## Tez3 (Jan 26, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> Thats exactly what public schools do. When you home school a kid who are you forcing your views on other then your own kids?
> 
> When you go out and picket other faith's schools, when you shove leaflets into their hands, when you blockade a school and sing hymns at the children which is what this group of people does.
> 
> ...



http://www.wsws.org/articles/2007/jul2007/crea-j17.shtml

Across Europe this subject has been a political sore spot, already in Germany there's a push by fundamentalists to make schools teach Creationism. The fundamentalists definitely want the school curriculem changed so that it teaches their beliefs. It seems in some places in Germany they are managing it even when it's against the law.

_"Biology at the private school, August Hermann Francke, in Gießen is taught by a teacher who defends creationism and rejects Darwin&#8217;s scientific account of evolution in favour of a literal reading of the Bible, whereby the history of mankind is just 6,000 years old. The same teachings are promulgated at the state-run Liebig school in the town. Although the Hessian constitution forbids such indoctrination, the state government has done nothing to prevent the teaching of evangelical fundamentalism at these schools."

_As you can see from this article in Europe this is tied in with many things political, racial and religious. Home schooling is the least of the worries in Europe, the rise of the extreme right wing fundamentalists is a worrying thing to many here with long memories.


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## Tez3 (Jan 26, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> Oh ok so its ok to comment on American but its not a two way street got it I didnt know the rules before.
> 
> Thats why most places have a set of things your required to teach
> 
> ...



Ah if only it were that simple.


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## ballen0351 (Jan 26, 2012)

Wow the World Socialist web site thats not a bias group at all.  
They are calling Obama a right winger  lol  
Nice website its comical.  You dont really believe that stuff do you?


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## ballen0351 (Jan 26, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Ah if only it were that simple.



I think the fact they dont dont form a new school like you keep insisting they need to do proves it.  They just want to teach to their kids in their homes


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## billc (Jan 26, 2012)

Hmmm...I went to the world socialist website but is there a store on the site where the socialists can buy their brown shirts and their red shirts.  I've heard that the new "green" shirts are going to be big at the G-8 protests this year...


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## Tez3 (Jan 26, 2012)

I'm afraid Obama is right wing compared to our left wingers. Most countries in Europe are actually socialist, not your type of socialist which is basically a communist but European socialism. Obama has done nothing that conservatives here don't do, the things he says and does are conservative and right wing. His policies argel nicely with our conservatives and nothing like the left wing policies. It's one of the biggest differences between our countries, our political views are radically different. It's respectable and decent to be a socialist here you know, we even have lots of liberals which is again a different thing from your liberals.


http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,2151809,00.html


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## Tez3 (Jan 26, 2012)

billcihak said:


> Hmmm...I went to the world socialist website but is there a store on the site where the socialists can buy their brown shirts and their red shirts. I've heard that the new "green" shirts are going to be big at the G-8 protests this year...



Really, your's will be the black shirt then. We know how to deal with them.


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## Tez3 (Jan 26, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> I think the fact they dont dont form a new school like you keep insisting they need to do proves it. They just want to teach to their kids in their homes



If you say so. As an expert on German politics you must know more than Granfire and myself.


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## billc (Jan 26, 2012)

Oh Tez, you know I am not a socialist of any stripe and I prefer golf shirts, they are more comfortable...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackshirts


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## ballen0351 (Jan 26, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> If you say so. As an expert on German politics you must know more than Granfire and myself.



I don't need to be an expert to see your logic is wrong.  You say they want to teach all children their views.  Then you show how easy it would be for them to start their own school which would help the goal you claim they have.  Yet they don't want to have more schools they just want to teach their own kids in their own homes.  Logic is a funny thing.  But your right you lived there for a few years so your the expert.  Lol yawn.


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## Tez3 (Jan 27, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> I don't need to be an expert to see your logic is wrong. You say they want to teach all children their views. Then you show how easy it would be for them to start their own school which would help the goal you claim they have. Yet they don't want to have more schools they just want to teach their own kids in their own homes. Logic is a funny thing. But your right you lived there for a few years so your the expert. Lol yawn.



No, Granfire being German would be the expert wouldn't you think?

It's not my logic that's at fault, if it's that easy to start their own schools why are they coming to America as political asylumists ... because their aim isn't homeschooling or starting their own schools but to have the German schools teach what they want them to teach. they've come to America saying they are persecuted because of their religion when they could easily start their own small, 'homestyle' school in German, they came at the instigation of an American  who's organisation's agenda is to have people home school, fair enough but bringing people over as *political *victims from Germany?  Anyway, it's academic as they are all yours now, so you can have more schools teaching Creationism and leaving the inconvenient parts of your history out lol.


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## ballen0351 (Jan 27, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> No, Granfire being German would be the expert wouldn't you think?


Umm nope.  My mother is a German citizen as well ,she has a green card and refuses to become an American citizen but I wouldnt consider her an expert either.  I have aunts and uncles that still live there I wouldnt consider them educational experts either.  I live in the US does that make me an expert on all things American?



> It's not my logic that's at fault, if it's that easy to start their own schools why are they coming to America as political asylumists ... because their aim isn't homeschooling or starting their own schools but to have the German schools teach what they want them to teach.



So which is it they want to change all German schools or flee to America? 


> they've come to America saying they are persecuted because of their religion when they could easily start their own small, 'homestyle' school in German, they came at the instigation of an American who's organisation's agenda is to have people home school, fair enough but bringing people over as *political *victims from Germany? Anyway, it's academic as they are all yours now, so you can have more schools teaching Creationism and leaving the inconvenient parts of your history out lol.


So now its and American agenda to bring Germans here?  What goal would that serve?


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## Tez3 (Jan 27, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> Umm nope. My mother is a German citizen as well ,she has a green card and refuses to become an American citizen but I wouldnt consider her an expert either. I have aunts and uncles that still live there I wouldnt consider them educational experts either. I live in the US does that make me an expert on all things American?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Do you actually read what I write? I said it was an American ( _one American not America_) who persuaded them to go, it's in two articles I posted links to.

This is hard work you know...the fundamentalist Christian group want the schools in German to teach Creationism and all the rest of the things they believe in, the German law says indoctrinisation is illegal, they teach about all religions not as faiths but as being part of the world, it's people and it's faiths. The fundamentalists don't like that view, they say the German school system teaches about Islam, vampires, witches etc etc. so they take their children out of shcool which is illegal in Germany. Instead of starting their own school which other parents do to satisfy both themselves and the law, this particular family has decided, on the advice of the American gentleman, that they want to be political asylum seekers, trying to make an international scandal out of a fairly simple situation. I don't know why this man suggested they come to America thereby leapfrogging thsoe who were waiting legitimately, perhaps you could ask him.


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