# After Systema



## Rook (Aug 17, 2006)

I noticed that alot of systema people dropped arts that they had previously practiced, but I have heard few referances to any beginning to train in other arts simultaneously.  Did anyone do this?  Why or why not?

(I am aware that Systema is a very flexible system etc... I have read the old threads here as well as much of the official forum and the websites.)


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## erich (Aug 18, 2006)

I dabble in other things but compared to systema they all seem too narrowly focussed, like games!  I enjoy other styles but my focus is all systema.  I intend to keep at it for the rest of my days so I have no "after systema" plans.


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## bam357 (Aug 22, 2006)

i studied systema for about 6 mos and found it to be a very good art but the fact of the matter was that i needed to get some real experience before i could excute any moves i was learning aloong with the confidence to know i could do them in a real situation so i am now going to take up some muay thai.


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## NYCRonin (Aug 22, 2006)

Thats very understandable, for me. I would encourage you to do so....and I am one of the certified Systema teachers under Vlad and Michael. My contact with Systema came after I had more than my fair share of real world contact and experimentation...so perhaps, it was abit easier for me to integrate the 'funny and weird' exercises into protective movements. 

Good luck in your future training and know the doors to Systema will always be open to you to visit or return to, fully. Have fun, learn and try your best - apply what your 6 months of Systema gave you. 
(Oh - and learn the shin to thigh kick from MT - it can be jiggled abit and fits very well into overall 'systema-type' movement. You will see thats true. 0h, and the downward cutting elbow rotation from MT - in many ways similar to Systema rotations of elbows in close work.)


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## Drunken Cro (Aug 22, 2006)

From what little Ive seen of Systema practitioners the ones who have studied other arts all seem to be much better combatively than the ones who have only or mostly studied Systema.  Of course, Id imagine this would also be true for most any other art as well.  But Systema definitely seems to be an art that focuses on polishing your movement.  I dont mean that in the traditional way of a crisp, hard, fast movement but rather something along the lines of Ok, you got this movement/technique/concept, now make it natural (you).  Personally, Im a little excited since I plan on visiting the Toronto school at the end of this week to find out first hand.


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## NYCRonin (Aug 22, 2006)

Again..applause is in order!
Real life and personal investigation is the essence of true growth - in any field..and especially in martial methods, for oneday - ones very life could be in the balance.
"Drunken Cro" - I would ask you to post your experience - warts and all!
This trip has all the potential to be very good....or not. Takes a seeking and open mind to actually go to find out for ones-self. Have a good time..and please share your experience here.

BTW -The Sports Bar near Vlads has a decent menu and booths to relax in...even the Pizza Hut up the block serves cold beer and pretty good pizza...considering its not from NYC...lol. (a Systema insider joke).


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## Jonathan Randall (Aug 22, 2006)

Drunken Cro said:
			
		

> From what little Ive seen of Systema practitioners the ones who have studied other arts all seem to be much better combatively than the ones who have only or mostly studied Systema. Of course, Id imagine this would also be true for most any other art as well. But Systema definitely seems to be an art that focuses on polishing your movement. I dont mean that in the traditional way of a crisp, hard, fast movement but rather something along the lines of Ok, you got this movement/technique/concept, now make it natural (you). Personally, Im a little excited since I plan on visiting the Toronto school at the end of this week to find out first hand.


 
Tell us about your Toronto visit when your back. Start a thread and let's hear about it! I'm sure it will be a great experience.

I've found also that Systema practitioners with extensive previous training can discuss and explain Systema better, as well.

Keep it up folks! This is great work in promoting non-political Systema and RMA discussion.


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## Brian King (Aug 22, 2006)

*NYCRonin wrote*


> "BTW -The Sports Bar near Vlads has a decent menu and booths to relax in...even the Pizza Hut up the block serves cold beer and pretty good pizza...considering its not from NYC...lol. (a Systema insider joke)."


 
The sports bars still has good food and company but, FYI Rob, the pizza hut has closed.....wah

*Drunken Cro wrote*



> "From what little Ive seen of Systema practitioners the ones who have studied other arts all seem to be much better combatively than the ones who have only or mostly studied Systema. "



This has not matched my experience in the art. I am thinking of specifically of Instructors such as Jim King and Emmanuel Manolakakis and many of the other practitioners that have easily handed me my behind, even with their lack of martial arts experiences other than systema. Sure somebody with 20 years of Kenpo and four months of Systema may be more comfortable "combatively" than somebody with only four months of Systema, but not necessarily so.

*Drunken Cro wrote*



> "Personally, Im a little excited since I plan on visiting the Toronto school at the end of this week to find out first hand."



Have fun and let us know how it went. If this is a training trip for you I would strongly suggest that you also visit Emmanuels school (also in Toronto). Every time any of our students make the trek to Toronto I recommend that they schedule time in for a visit to Emmanuels school (he has some day classes that do not conflict with time at club Vlad) they have never regretted going.

*Jonathan Randall wrote*



> "I've found also that Systema practitioners with extensive previous training can discuss and explain Systema better, as well."


 
It has been my experience when trying to discuss Systema with people with a martial arts background, that if I frame the discussion using concepts and terms that they are more familiar with they seem to have an easier time getting their heads wrapped around some of the concepts. This is very limiting of course and used mostly when people are locked into preconceived expectations and emotional patterns. I have the easiest time "discussing" systema on the floor doing the work.

See you on the floor soon
Friends
Brian King


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## RachelK (Aug 22, 2006)

> From what little Ive seen of Systema practitioners the ones who have studied other arts all seem to be much better combatively than the ones who have only or mostly studied Systema.


It's funny, I haven't found that to be true. Systema practitioners who have studied other martial arts, particularly if they achieved a high level in their previous training, continue to do the other martial arts instead of learning Systema. That makes sense, as if you spend many years learning to block, it is not going to be easy to un-learn all that and yield instead of block. Some styles that are very compatible with Systema, like Aikido or dancing (OK, it's not a martial art, but still a great background for learning Systema), seem to give a definite advantage to learning Systema. Other styles like karate and kickboxing seem to be more of a hindrance until the practitioner can empty the proverbial cup and accept new concepts.
Of course, as has oft been pointed out, previous martial arts training in any style gives a good background in biomechanics that is helpful to Systema as it would be to any martial style. It's just my personal experience that the psychological difficulty of letting go of previous training that very contradictory to Systema principle is harder than starting from scratch.
Combatively, anyone with martial arts training is probably better off than someone without it. However, I have observed that students with no previous training are usually more skilled at Systema after, say, four months, than students with previous martial arts training, who are often still practicing their other style in Systema class even after four months. It sounds crazy but I have seen students with only 6 monthos or a year of training easily handle students who have had years of training in another martial arts. Hard to believe until you see it yourself. 
That's just my perspective from working with hundreds of different students in the last three years or so. In the interest of full disclosure, I myself had no previous martial training before undertaking Systema so that might slant my perspective on this question.
Best,
Rachel


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## Paul Genge (Aug 22, 2006)

It very much depends on the honesty of the student and how prepared they are to relinquish their previous style.  The interesting thing is that if they honestly try not to use their previous art the good stuff in it will float to the surfice and become part of their systema.

Obviously some arts have more systema compatible good stuff than others, but that is life isn't it.  

Enjoy your trip,

Paul Genge


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## Mark Jakabcsin (Aug 22, 2006)

Brian said:
			
		

> *NYCRonin wrote*
> 
> 
> The sports bars still has good food and company but, FYI Rob, the pizza hut has closed.....wah


 
Every time I visit I have to stop by Montana's once....or three times. From Vladimir's go north on Young Street and go under the 407, it's on the right hand side. They used to have an all you can eat rib deal on Wednesdays. If you keep going north there is also a good breakfast diner about a 1 mile farther north on the left hand side. Sorry I can't remember the name but good morning eats. You'll see me at both of these places the first full week of November. 

Mark J.


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## Rook (Aug 22, 2006)

Might the difference in ability between people with previous experiance with other MAs and people who only did systema be explained as more enthusiasm?  Often, people who are enthusaistic or especially dedicated to martial arts will have tried other arts before coming to the one they like, whereas some people simply pursue the one they look into first and not at the same intensity?


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## Mark Jakabcsin (Aug 22, 2006)

Rook said:
			
		

> Might the difference in ability between people with previous experiance with other MAs and people who only did systema be explained as more enthusiasm? Often, people who are enthusaistic or especially dedicated to martial arts will have tried other arts before coming to the one they like, whereas some people simply pursue the one they look into first and not at the same intensity?


 
Maybe but more likely the difference is due to the fact that we are all different to begin with. No matter how you look at this there are multiple exceptions to any rhyme or reason you try to create. I know plenty of folks that are new to MA's that picked up Systema extremely quickly, I know folks with loads of MA experience that also picked up Systema extremely quickly. Personally I dislike these overachievers.  I also know plenty of folks with and without previous MA experience that still struggle. We all be different, we all be learn'n at our own pace, we all be learn'n faster when we focus on Systema and not what we did or didn't do previously. Let go of the past focus on the now.

However, if you must have some sort of correlation between the ability to learn Systema I suggest you link it to the love of food. Simply look at this thread and find many fine eateries located around Vlad's. 

Speaking of which, has anyone been to the Greek place right on the corner? Every time I am in Toronto I say I am going to go there but some how never make it. Gyros anyone?

Mark J.


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## Drunken Cro (Aug 23, 2006)

NYCRonin said:
			
		

> Again..applause is in order!
> Real life and personal investigation is the essence of true growth - in any field..and especially in martial methods, for oneday - ones very life could be in the balance.
> "Drunken Cro" - I would ask you to post your experience - warts and all!
> This trip has all the potential to be very good....or not. Takes a seeking and open mind to actually go to find out for ones-self. Have a good time..and please share your experience here.
> ...


 
Hi everyone,

Im sure the trip will be excellent!  Im getting really excited.  Its also purely for training so I shouldnt be distracted with anything else.  

NYCRonin, Mark Jakabcsin and Brian King-
Thanks for the tip on food.  At a petite 245lbs Im always concerned with not wasting away !!!  My opinion on Systema practitioners (I meant instructors  I should have been clearer) is solely based on what Ive seen on dvds only.  I own about a dozen from Vlad and a few from some of his students who are teachers now (Puzikas, Manolakakis and a couple others).  It doesnt mean that my assessment is accurate its just my opinion (for now).   

Can anyone tell me if any of the hotels I have listed below are a good choice or if you have a hotel youd recommend?

*Knights Inn Toronto North *
10711 Yonge Street
Richmond Hill, ON L4C 3E1 
Canada

*Howard Johnson Markham *
555 Cochrane Drive
Markham, ON L3R 8E3 
Canada

*Howard Johnson Inn & Suites - Toronto East *
22 Metropolitan Road
, Toronto, ON M1R2T6 
Canada

Ill definitely post my experiences when I return.  Again, any advice on potential accommodations would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks to all of you for your advice/help,

-Drunken Cro


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## Drunken Cro (Aug 23, 2006)

I understand that the Emerald Isle Motel at 8700 Yonge St is supposed to be a good choice.  For anyone who has made this trip would you agree that its a good option?  Also, Im having trouble locating their web site.  Again, for those who have stayed there, did you make reservations or just walk in?  

Thank you,

-Ante (aka Drunken Cro)


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## Jonathan Randall (Aug 23, 2006)

RachelK said:
			
		

> It's funny, I haven't found that to be true. Systema practitioners who have studied other martial arts, particularly if they achieved a high level in their previous training, continue to do the other martial arts instead of learning Systema.
> Best,
> Rachel


 
You make great points about prior training interfering with getting Systema concepts and I agree. However; when I spoke of describing Systema better, I was thinking specifically of Arthur Sennott, who has a long pre-Systema MA background, who used to explain Systema concepts to us newbies at the old forum (can't remember which, maybe it was Vladimir's).

Still, your post was great!


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## Mark Jakabcsin (Aug 23, 2006)

Drunken Cro said:
			
		

> I understand that the Emerald Isle Motel at 8700 Yonge St is supposed to be a good choice. For anyone who has made this trip would you agree that its a good option?


 
The Emerald Isle is popular with Systema folks because it is cheap and probably the closest hotel available. You could make the walk (probably over 2 miles) or take a bus to Vlad's. Other than being cheap and being located across the street from Montana's (big plus) I haven't found any redeeming qualities. Although it is interesting to go to the back west corner of the building after midnight and watch the maids cleaning and recleaning the same few rooms.  

I think I heard something about an Econo Lodge that was also in the area. I suggest you call Systema HQ and ask. When I go up I stay in Markham at the Hilton Garden in, but then I use my hotel points and stay for free. I like the hot tub, pool, good breakfast and comfy lobby bar. Where I stay is on the edge of Markham closest to Vladimir's school and it's about a 10-15 minute drive depending on lights. If you are going to have a car I recommend you look around at your hotel options.

Take care,

Mark J.


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## NYCRonin (Aug 25, 2006)

Brian - I mourn the passing of that Pizza Hut - how many good people shared decent beer and pretty good pizza there, with me.
I have stayed at the Emerald Isle....not uncomfortable - but then again, I could sleep in a tree to be in Club Vlad....my seniors can hang by their toes.

ANYWAY - I agree that contact with systema HQ/The Toronto School is BEST - they are totally up to date:
www.russianmartialart.com    Mark has given you some real deal stuff to consider (Hello, Bro.! Glad to read ya here. )

Work around to 'contact us' and ask.

Have fun, son.
See you eventually


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## Drunken Cro (Sep 27, 2006)

Well I FINALLY got an opportunity to go up to Toronto this past Monday.  

Life has a way of putting little roadblocks in your way when you want to do something and thats just what happened to cause me to cancel my trip last month.  In fact, one of those little roadblocks is what created the opportunity for this trip.  I banged up my knee a little and I decided to skip a class to let it heal (I have a tournament in two weeks and I didnt want to miss it because I made the injury worse).     So, I figured that this was a good excuse to make the 5 hour drive to check out a class.

First, let me say that everyone was really nice and friendly.  When I initially called to confirm that Vlad would be teaching a young lady, I found out later that this was Valerie, was very helpful but advised that Vlad would not be teaching that evening.  I figured that this would be a good opportunity to see what kind of students Vlad made so I rented a car anyway and headed out (Plus I was sick of repeatedly canceling my trips).  

Unfortunately the thing that gave me the opportunity to go the class is what kept me from participating so I just watched.  Id just feel like a total idiot if I got hurt bad 2 weeks out and couldnt compete and did it while not even training BJJ.  Anyway, the class was taught by a guy named Frank.   Excellent class!   Everyone seemed to be pushed to their edge in the warm ups and exercises throughout the class and there was a lot to good work/training performed.  I really appreciated the atmosphere throughout the class.  From the warm ups, class lessons/training and the kroog it all kind of spoke to me.  I know that the Systema is its own art and unique to itself but it really reminded me of some of the things I love most about good BJJ.  Laid back people, hard work, laughing, sweating, genuine concern that your partner gets it, technique and timing REALLY beating bigger training partners, blending with a partner(s) force and being natural.  To be honest I was going a little nuts staying on the sidelines.  It was really cool and so invigorating that the 5 hour drive back flew by.  

As a side note it was a weird experience talking to people that youve seen on video a lot but have never met in person.  I kept feeling like I knew both Frank and Valerie.  Kinda like seeing someone and saying where do I know you from......?  Oh yeah, the Strikes dvd. Or was it Mass Attacks?  

Anyway I plan of returning in the middle of next month for a couple of days and cant wait to actually do some work. 

Later,

Ante


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