# Baton for self defense



## ratman (Jun 12, 2010)

Wondering how many LEO's have actually used their baton to strike a subject? I'm issued a Monadnock collaspsable and the only thing it's used for is to knock on doors, flip out my side mirrors after a car wash, etc.

Although we're trained and issued the sticks, I'm afraid to use it because of the politically correct society we now live in. Not that I would mind using it but it just seems "softer" using a taser or OC although it's on the same level of the force continium.


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## harold (Jun 12, 2010)

We use the ASP 21 inch collapsable baton. It is seldom used on people because our officers prefer to use chemical spray. In use of force numbers,the chemical works sufficiently to allow our officers to move in and quickly take down individuals without having to use their baton.


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## jks9199 (Jun 12, 2010)

ratman said:


> Wondering how many LEO's have actually used their baton to strike a subject? I'm issued a Monadnock collaspsable and the only thing it's used for is to knock on doors, flip out my side mirrors after a car wash, etc.
> 
> Although we're trained and issued the sticks, I'm afraid to use it because of the politically correct society we now live in. Not that I would mind using it but it just seems "softer" using a taser or OC although it's on the same level of the force continium.





harold said:


> We use the ASP 21 inch collapsable baton. It is seldom used on people because our officers prefer to use chemical spray. In use of force numbers,the chemical works sufficiently to allow our officers to move in and quickly take down individuals without having to use their baton.



This is the second time today I've seen the dreaded L-word (liability) crop up with the idea that it's preventing officers from using appropriate tools or tactics.  And I can't count the times I've heard it crop up discussing why officers don't do things...

The baton is a very good, very useful tool that can be employed both to strike and to control a person -- with the right training.  I admit; I've rarely used mine because I often move instinctively to my hands first.  I think it's far superior to OC -- and in many cases, the Taser.  OC only works so far as the sprayed subject cares that they're experiencing it's effects.  Sure, their eyes close involuntarily and they cough and hack... but that doesn't really STOP a person who wants to fight.  (It just makes them more ornery as they finally calm down...)  Batons don't need to be reloaded, like the Taser.

Liability is a different thing...  You're liable for what you do, whether it's talk to someone or shoot them -- and anything in between.  But if you know the laws, and the rulings, and understand your GOs, and work within all of them, you'll be fine.  The key is to understand that -- and then do what you have to.  In the DT realm, that means whatever tool is most likely to give you quick, effective control without crossing the line into excess, so that you can go home at the end of the shift.  You're not required to wait for them to hit you -- and often, stopping them before they strike means you'll use LESS force, and be in better graces with IA.  

What scares me is the idea that I've got brothers and sisters on the streets courting injury or worse because they're afraid to take action.


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## scottie (Jun 12, 2010)

used mine to kill a snake for an old lady. it was in her bedroom.


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## scottie (Jun 12, 2010)

jks9199 said:


> This is the second time today I've seen the dreaded L-word (liability) crop up with the idea that it's preventing officers from using appropriate tools or tactics. And I can't count the times I've heard it crop up discussing why officers don't do things...
> 
> The baton is a very good, very useful tool that can be employed both to strike and to control a person -- with the right training. I admit; I've rarely used mine because I often move instinctively to my hands first. I think it's far superior to OC -- and in many cases, the Taser. OC only works so far as the sprayed subject cares that they're experiencing it's effects. Sure, their eyes close involuntarily and they cough and hack... but that doesn't really STOP a person who wants to fight. (It just makes them more ornery as they finally calm down...) Batons don't need to be reloaded, like the Taser.
> Liability is a different thing... You're liable for what you do, whether it's talk to someone or shoot them -- and anything in between. But if you know the laws, and the rulings, and understand your GOs, and work within all of them, you'll be fine. The key is to understand that -- and then do what you have to. In the DT realm, that means whatever tool is most likely to give you quick, effective control without crossing the line into excess, so that you can go home at the end of the shift. You're not required to wait for them to hit you -- and often, stopping them before they strike means you'll use LESS force, and be in better graces with IA.
> ...


 
our use of force has soft hands then oc and taser then asp and hard hands.......
  i Agree with you.


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## Drac (Jun 12, 2010)

I have used my PR-24 and my Monodnock baton many times while making an arrest..


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## Bill Mattocks (Jun 12, 2010)

Drac said:


> I have used my PR-24 and my Monodnock baton many times while making an arrest..



As have I.  It's quite effective.  I have used it more often as an aid to joint locks and come-alongs than as a stick (five from the sky as we used to call it), but I've also used it directly out of the speed ring as a punching tool to the abdomen.  Left hand grasps the handle, straight out at just above waist-level, deep soft-tissue penetration, followed by a gasp and a doubled-over soon-to-be arrestee.


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## Drac (Jun 12, 2010)

Bill Mattocks said:


> As have I. It's quite effective. I have used it more often as an aid to joint locks and come-alongs than as a stick (five from the sky as we used to call it), but I've also used it directly out of the speed ring as a punching tool to the abdomen. Left hand grasps the handle, straight out at just above waist-level, deep soft-tissue penetration, followed by a gasp and a doubled-over soon-to-be arrestee.


 
We are a couple of old schoolers Bill...I loved my PR-24..When the department switched to the MEB (Monodnock Expandable Baton) I had to get a special permit from the Chief and show my instructor credentials in order to keep carrying it..


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## Bill Mattocks (Jun 12, 2010)

Drac said:


> We are a couple of old schoolers Bill...I loved my PR-24..When the department switched to the MEB (Monodnock Expandable Baton) I had to get a special permit from the Chief and show my instructor credentials in order to keep carrying it..



Collapsible batons were still a long way off by the time I decided to go back to college and get into IT work.  I guess I'm glad I never had to deal with them.  You could buy cheap junky collapsible batons when I was in Okinawa, but I'd never want to depend on one of them.  I presume the new ones are better.

But the real question for old-school LE; Peerless or Smith & Wesson hand-irons?  I preferred Peerless.  Or Mag-Lites.  Three-cell or four?  C or D?  I was a three-C guy.  Easier to swing.  I mean they made more light.  Hehehe.


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## ratman (Jun 13, 2010)

I should probably also mention that in 14 years of LEO in a large city, I have only had a handful of uses of force. I think "verbal judo" has a lot to do with that. Knowing how to talk and deal with people is a big part of the job. It also helps when your 6'3 and 265.


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## seasoned (Jun 13, 2010)

ratman said:


> Wondering how many LEO's have actually used their baton to strike a subject? I'm issued a Monadnock collaspsable and the only thing it's used for is to knock on doors, flip out my side mirrors after a car wash, etc.
> 
> Although we're trained and issued the sticks, I'm afraid to use it because of the politically correct society we now live in. Not that I would mind using it but it just seems "softer" using a taser or OC although it's on the same level of the force continium.


 


ratman said:


> I should probably also mention that in 14 years of LEO in a large city, I have only had a handful of uses of force. I think "verbal judo" has a lot to do with that. Knowing how to talk and deal with people is a big part of the job. It also helps when your 6'3 and 265.


I work in a few court rooms part time. With the many options I have, the baton being one of them, realistically, I am limited. With close quarters, and a room full of people, hands on, or verbal,  work the best for me.


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## jks9199 (Jun 13, 2010)

scottie said:


> our use of force has soft hands then oc and taser then asp and hard hands.......
> i Agree with you.


Just curious -- but have you really stayed up to date on your use of force policy since the academy?  Lots of cops don't -- and so they're going on old practices and approaches.  Many places have moved away from that sort of stair step/ladder approach, and more generally categorize the force levels as low (usually presence, verbal controls, some soft hand techniques), medium (including strikes, impact weapons, OC, and Tasers), and high/lethal.  It's important to stay up to date on what the rules are, not what they were when you were in the academy.


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## jks9199 (Jun 13, 2010)

ratman said:


> I should probably also mention that in 14 years of LEO in a large city, I have only had a handful of uses of force. I think "verbal judo" has a lot to do with that. Knowing how to talk and deal with people is a big part of the job. It also helps when your 6'3 and 265.


I've got 10 years on -- and spent the last 4 working gangs.  But I still don't have all that many... It's a combination of presence, confidence, and verbal controls -- as well as simply stopping things BEFORE they become a use of force.  Many people back off if you simply recognize what they're doing, and tell 'em to stop before they start, or otherwise take control of them before they can throw that punch.


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## scottie (Jun 13, 2010)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Collapsible batons were still a long way off by the time I decided to go back to college and get into IT work. I guess I'm glad I never had to deal with them. You could buy cheap junky collapsible batons when I was in Okinawa, but I'd never want to depend on one of them. I presume the new ones are better.
> 
> But the real question for old-school LE; Peerless or Smith & Wesson hand-irons? I preferred Peerless. Or Mag-Lites. Three-cell or four? C or D? I was a three-C guy. Easier to swing. I mean they made more light. Hehehe.


 
thats funny. I had a capt. school me on the fact that a mag-lite is not an impact weapon. he followed his 20 minute speech with it is between you and your God what you say in court


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## scottie (Jun 13, 2010)

jks9199 said:


> Just curious -- but have you really stayed up to date on your use of force policy since the academy? Lots of cops don't -- and so they're going on old practices and approaches. Many places have moved away from that sort of stair step/ladder approach, and more generally categorize the force levels as low (usually presence, verbal controls, some soft hand techniques), medium (including strikes, impact weapons, OC, and Tasers), and high/lethal. It's important to stay up to date on what the rules are, not what they were when you were in the academy.


 
Our department is required by law to do a 4 hour use of force class every year. So to answer your question I stay up tp date on my department "SOP". I promise i am not trying to be a smart butt, I have to follow policy. It does not matter what everyone else does.


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## Drac (Jun 13, 2010)

Bill Mattocks said:


> But the real question for old-school LE; Peerless or Smith & Wesson hand-irons? I preferred Peerless.


 
Peerless for me too




Bill Mattocks said:


> Or Mag-Lites. Three-cell or four? C or D? I was a three-C guy. Easier to swing. I mean they made more light. Hehehe.


 
3 cell D.


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## jks9199 (Jun 13, 2010)

scottie said:


> thats funny. I had a capt. school me on the fact that a mag-lite is not an impact weapon. he followed his 20 minute speech with it is between you and your God what you say in court


We don't carry the metal Maglite's anymore.  We've got the rechargeable Streamlight SL20, made of plastic.  But it's still "not an impact weapon."

Nah... It's okay for me to use a 3/8 " or so metal pipe AKA Asp Expandable Baton to whack someone... but not a plastic flashlight.  Yeah, that makes sense!

Of course, if I do happen to hit someone with the flashlight, I didn't mean to, but I was afraid I'd be harmed and struck out instinctively with what happened to be in my hand, right?


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## jks9199 (Jun 13, 2010)

scottie said:


> Our department is required by law to do a 4 hour use of force class every year. So to answer your question I stay up tp date on my department "SOP". I promise i am not trying to be a smart butt, I have to follow policy. It does not matter what everyone else does.


That's great, and I'm not trying to suggest anything about you or your professionalism.  But even with something mandatory training like that -- there are plenty of people who simply show up, and do the crossword, or doze, or whatever during it, and figure if they really needed to know, someone would really let them know it's important.  ('cause, y'know, a 4 hour block of time with mandatory attendance isn't enough of a clue that it's important...)  I'm sure you know the types I'm talking about...


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## Drac (Jun 14, 2010)

jks9199 said:


> That's great, and I'm not trying to suggest anything about you or your professionalism. But even with something mandatory training like that -- there are plenty of people who simply show up, and do the crossword, or doze, or whatever during it, and figure if they really needed to know, someone would really let them know it's important. ('cause, y'know, a 4 hour block of time with mandatory attendance isn't enough of a clue that it's important...) I'm sure you know the types I'm talking about...


 
One of the LEO trainers up here is fond of saying that when it comes to training there are 3 types of folks that show up.

1. Prisoners= I'm only here cause the Chief said I have to be.

2. Vacationers= Hey it beats working.

3. Volunteers= I want to be here cause I want to learn..


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