# Makiwara training



## twendkata71 (Feb 8, 2009)

Anyone use ditdajow for their hands in makiwara training? Or what do you use if anything? I used to use ditdajow.


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## dancingalone (Feb 8, 2009)

I do.  I have a recipe I learned from my teacher that is effective for relieving pain and swelling/bruising.   Good jows seem to be plentiful enough as I've sampled a few others made by people in various other MAs.


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## searcher (Feb 8, 2009)

I use it when performng makiwara training.   It has sped up myrecovery time considerably.    I get mine from Wing Lam.    Seems pretty good.   I knwo some liketo make their own, but My Wife would kill me if I started making it myself.


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## twendkata71 (Feb 8, 2009)

the only thing I don't like about the ditdajow is the smell.  Other than that I have no complaints. 
Some of the ones online are very expensive. Personally I would like to make my own, but the ingredients are hard to find.


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## dancingalone (Feb 8, 2009)

twendkata71 said:


> Personally I would like to make my own, but the ingredients are hard to find.



You have to find a trusted Asian herbalist since some of the ingredients used in jow are easily mistaken for another with a similar name if you are not versed in Oriental pharmacology.   I use the same guy in Toronto my teacher has used for years.  I actually had to get a letter of reference from my teacher for him to start selling goodies to me.


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## Brandon Fisher (Feb 9, 2009)

I used it for awhile until my hand developed one spot on it that is all dried skin and split open.  Almost like chemical burn.  But I bought it from AWMA and not real sure about it.  Now honestly it really didn't do anything for me at all.


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## Uchinanchu (Feb 26, 2009)

There are almost as many recipes for Jow, as there are different systems of Chinese kenpo.  Many of the traditional schools have their own special blend of ingredients that is tailored to their own specific needs according to the training that they do.

As for me, I usually get my ingredients from a Chinese herbalist.  That is probably the best way to go for those who do not have a 'recipe' within their given school/style.

A warning to those who have never used it though, is in order.  Never, under any circumstances, take it internally!  That not only means do not drink it, but also do NOT put it on any open cuts, scrapes, or abbrasions.  The stuff is like poison, and is meant stricktly for topical use only.  If you use it on your hands for punching the makiwara, and you open up a knuckle, wash it out good.
Good luck, train hard, and train smart!


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## Grenadier (Feb 26, 2009)

I use one of the many "iron palm" formulas out there.  I simply buy the packaged dry ingredients from a trusted source, and pick up a 1.75 liter bottle of Smirnoff vodka from the liquor store.  In one month, the jow is ready to go. 

The important thing to remember about makiwara training, though, is not to overdo it, no matter how good of a jow you may have.  One need only look at certain practitioners who repeatedly pounded their hands into the makiwara, resulting in the destruction of nerves.  Seeing those guys' hands shake when they're trying to drink a cup of coffee is painful in and of itself.  



			
				Uchinanchu said:
			
		

> A warning to those who have never used it though, is in order. Never, under any circumstances, take it internally!


 
If someone doesn't know what the ingredients are, then this advice is very  sound, indeed.  The mixture that I use isn't for internal use, and woe be to those who would try to ingest it.  

There are a few formulas of jow out there that *can* be taken internally.  However, this should never be done, unless the preparer of the jow knows *exactly* what went into there, and can verify that the mixture is potable.  Right now, there are only two people that I know of, whose formulas I would trust to ingest, and even then, only in very, very small quantities.


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## chinto (Feb 26, 2009)

no i do not use ditjow, or any thing else. but i was taught how to use the makiwara properly so as not to injure myself and get the full benefit of the tool.  

Please get competent training with the Makiwara before using one.


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## dancingalone (Feb 26, 2009)

Makiwara training is a common drill in Okinawan karate, almost as common as say kata.  You can definitely train with one without damaging your nerves.  It's like anything else.  Would you learn gymnastics from someone unqualified to teach?  I would not since the risk of cracking my head during a layup would be very likely without proper guidance.

Same with karate or any other dangerous martial arts.  Seek out proper instruction before yo commit your time, your health, or your dollars.


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## Uchinanchu (Feb 27, 2009)

Grenadier said:


> I use one of the many "iron palm" formulas out there. I simply buy the packaged dry ingredients from a trusted source, and pick up a 1.75 liter bottle of Smirnoff vodka from the liquor store. In one month, the jow is ready to go.
> 
> The important thing to remember about makiwara training, though, is not to overdo it, no matter how good of a jow you may have. One need only look at certain practitioners who repeatedly pounded their hands into the makiwara, resulting in the destruction of nerves. Seeing those guys' hands shake when they're trying to drink a cup of coffee is painful in and of itself.
> 
> ...


 
You make a good point.  Some people take their conditioning way too far, and overstep themselves.  This is not smart training.  Sadly, there are still way too many people that train this way, due to lack of good instruction/education.
As for the internally taken 'jow', I have actually used it in the past, but it was prescribed to myself and a fellow dojo brother by a highly qualified Chinese doctor.  It is normally prescribed to martial artists who have deep tissue bruising that normal topical jow cannot get to.  As you said, this is a medicine that should be used only when necessary.


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## suicide (Mar 20, 2009)

i asked about makiwara training kenpo , in the kenpo fourm of this site and doc said : Mr. Parker ( EPAK ) hated it, and thought it was stupid for a modern martial arts practitioner. Perhaps in feudal Japan where hand-to-hand warfare was a way of life, it might have made some sense, but not in our modern society where someone will probably never derive any benefit from such training other than "ugly" hands and arthritic inflammation and pain over time.

what do some of you think about this ? 

i think im getting ready to build one to see what it does for me , when i first got my wooden dummy i didnt use it for a long time now i love that thing and in a way i know it helps me alot ...


doc : Modern ninja don't need it, and punching represents only a small part of the hand weapon arsenal. Its use is usually a cultural and/or traditional one. Mr. Parker didn't believe in either. He said, "Conditioning of the hands takes place naturally in a proper training environment."


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## suicide (Mar 20, 2009)

doc is a O.G. and i have respect for him but theres alot of O.G.´S out there that i would like to know how they think :angel: P.L.U.R. - PEACE LOVE UNITY AND RESPECT


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## Brandon Fisher (Mar 20, 2009)

suicide said:


> what do some of you think about this ?


Everyone has their own opinions of makiwara training however many people go to hard to fast. In many cases have no idea how to properly use a makiwara or their makiwara is not properly bulit.



suicide said:


> i think im getting ready to build one to see what it does for me , when i first got my wooden dummy i didnt use it for a long time now i love that thing and in a way i know it helps me alot ...


Here is my suggestion, start slow and gradually built up power. Also make sure it is made properly and has enough give in the spring.  It should not be immovable and this is wear people get hurt using them.

There are also other methods of using the makiwara to strengthen the hands without just slamming your hand into it. Also keep in mind the makiwara is not just for conditioning but it helps build wrist and forearm strength and helps teach the user how to punch correctly.


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## hungfistron (Apr 6, 2009)

I just began Makiwara training about 3 weeks ago, and I have to say it does force you to get in a proper zen kutsu dachi, exhale on the strike, and you have to concentrate and find your front two knuckles (index and middle) impacting the area of contact. 

If you dont keep your concentration you can tear your flesh around your knuckles, which can set you back in training (and which I have experienced) you can break your wrist, or break your pinky and ring knuckles. 

I have hit heavy bags over the years but this is definitely a new, and exciting experience.


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## Brandon Fisher (Apr 6, 2009)

hungfistron said:


> I just began Makiwara training about 3 weeks ago, and I have to say it does force you to get in a proper zen kutsu dachi, exhale on the strike, and you have to concentrate and find your front two knuckles (index and middle) impacting the area of contact.
> 
> If you dont keep your concentration you can tear your flesh around your knuckles, which can set you back in training (and which I have experienced) you can break your wrist, or break your pinky and ring knuckles.
> 
> I have hit heavy bags over the years but this is definitely a new, and exciting experience.


I am glad that you are enjoying it and learning from it


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## astrobiologist (Apr 6, 2009)

On Friday night I did 350 strikes on the makiwara with each hand.  My skin was a little dry since the weather's been changing here.  After makiwara training I went to uppercut the chin of a training dummy, just for fun, and split a nice big flap off the edge of my knuckle on my right hand.  I pushed that piece back down and used some liquid bandage to hold it in place.  It's healing very nicely.  Of course, no makiwara training until it fully heals.  Lots of forearm striking though  

I have not used any type of dit dat jow or such before in my training.  I bought some hand salve for when that knuckle heals so that I have something to keep the skin from getting to chapped or cracked again.  I'd definitely like to make my own though.


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## Decker (Apr 10, 2009)

Can't help but think of an article I came across, which was about Master Shigeru Egami talking about makiwara training being bad for the practitioner, and while useful for hardening the striking tool, did little or nothing to increase strike power.

http://www.shotokai.com/ingles/gallery/tokitsu/makiwara5.html

Just out of curiosity, how much of it do you agree with or feel is true? Considering the fact that karateka today still use the makiwara...

I'm not a karateka, so I don't know.

Thanks.


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## Uchinanchu (Apr 10, 2009)

Decker said:


> Can't help but think of an article I came across, which was about Master Shigeru Egami talking about makiwara training being bad for the practitioner, and while useful for hardening the striking tool, did little or nothing to increase strike power.
> 
> http://www.shotokai.com/ingles/gallery/tokitsu/makiwara5.html
> 
> ...


 No disrespect intended towards Egami Sensei, but if he had trained with the makiwara for 25 years and found it not only useless in developing power, but also detrimental to ones health, then he obviously did not train with it properly.
He is not the only one to have had misconceptions of proper training, and sadly, there are still many who train with it incorrectly.
Dai Sensei Meitoku Yagi (my sensei's sensei) trained with the makiwara not only regularly, but developed such power, that he could snap them in two at will.  My own sensei, Masaaki Ikemiyagi, used to do it himself quite often, but tired of replacing them, so now keeps a punching bag behind them for support.  I myself have used the maki for many years, and yet, like my sensei, I have very little calluses or scarring and have found it to be essential to developing proper technique and power delivery in all my strikes.
If used correctly, it is an essential tool that can help your development greatly, if used incorrectly, the practitioner risks serious injury and possibly long term or permanant damage to ones limbs/joints.


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## Todd (Apr 11, 2009)

Here is an excellent example of what kind of results proper makiwara training can achieve.  The practitioner here is a very small woman, yet has incredible striking power...

[yt]HKwO5-ji1rQ[/yt]


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## Decker (Apr 11, 2009)

Uchinanchu said:


> No disrespect intended towards Egami Sensei, but if he had trained with the makiwara for 25 years and found it not only useless in developing power, but also detrimental to ones health, then he obviously did not train with it properly.



Hmm, yeah I was thinking the same thing. Personally, I feel that despite the fact that Egami Sensei was up there with the rest of the karate greats in terms of seniority and skill etc., he might not really have achieved the same level as the rest of them.

I've heard a quote from another karate sensei about makiwara training being for the hips.

 Still, thanks.


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## seasoned (Apr 11, 2009)

For the ones that do not like or think there is no value in Makiwara training, I feel they are focusing on just the knuckles alone. For those that understand, they know the valuable tool, the Mariwara is. As with any tool, it has many functions, and much to be learned. The knuckles are not the end all, but the by product, of an over all body involvement. Just a thought.


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## Brandon Fisher (Apr 11, 2009)

Uchinanchu said:


> No disrespect intended towards Egami Sensei, but if he had trained with the makiwara for 25 years and found it not only useless in developing power, but also detrimental to ones health, then he obviously did not train with it properly.
> He is not the only one to have had misconceptions of proper training, and sadly, there are still many who train with it incorrectly.
> Dai Sensei Meitoku Yagi (my sensei's sensei) trained with the makiwara not only regularly, but developed such power, that he could snap them in two at will. My own sensei, Masaaki Ikemiyagi, used to do it himself quite often, but tired of replacing them, so now keeps a punching bag behind them for support. I myself have used the maki for many years, and yet, like my sensei, I have very little calluses or scarring and have found it to be essential to developing proper technique and power delivery in all my strikes.
> If used correctly, it is an essential tool that can help your development greatly, if used incorrectly, the practitioner risks serious injury and possibly long term or permanant damage to ones limbs/joints.


Great example!!  I don't hit anywhere near as hard as Yagi Sensei or Ikemiyagi Sensei but I do hit very hard.  The more I use the makiwara the harder more penetrating my strikes get so maybe one day I will be able to snap a makiwara post (umm probably not).  After 15 years+ of using the makiwara the visual effects are not that noticeable on my hands either.  I think that maybe even some japanese / okinawan masters might have misused the makiwara but I would bet not many.


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## Todd (Apr 17, 2009)

I probably should have explained the context of the Youtube makiwara training video I posted up in #20.  The woman in the video is Onaga Michiko, the top student of Onaga Yoshimitsu, of the Shinjinbukan Shorin Ryu organization in Naha, Okinawa.

Here is a link to their makiwara training information: http://www.okinawakaratedo.com/Shinjinbukan net/makiwara.htm


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