# Was J.R.R. Tolkien an Anarchist?



## Makalakumu (May 23, 2012)

I've been a fan of Tolkien since I was young and I've heard this rumor again and again and again.  Is there any truth to it?  Can you see this philosophy in his work?  What do you think about this?


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## Makalakumu (May 23, 2012)

I found this.

http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/2010/11/Anarcho-Monarchism



> *But Tolkien was, in his choleric way, giving voice to his deepest convictions*  regarding the ideal form of human society&#8212;albeit fleeting voice. The  text of his sole anarcho-monarchist manifesto, such as it is, comes from  a letter he wrote to his son Christopher in 1943 (forgive me for  quoting at such length):
> 
> My political opinions lean more and more to *Anarchy *(philosophically  understood, meaning the abolition of control not whiskered men with  bombs)&#8212;or to &#8216;unconstitutional&#8217; Monarchy. I would arrest anybody who  uses the word State (in any sense other than the inanimate real of  England and its inhabitants, a thing that has neither power, rights nor  mind); and after a chance of recantation, execute them if they remained  obstinate! If we could go back to personal names, it would do a lot of  good. Government is an abstract noun meaning the art and process of  governing and it should be an offence to write it with a capital G or so  to refer to people. . . .


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## Tez3 (May 23, 2012)

He was an Oxford Don, of course he was an anarchist. * *Actually most of them are in various stages of eccentricity, he was no exception.


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## Tony Dismukes (May 23, 2012)

Whatever Tolkien meant by "philosophical understood" anarchy, it was definitely an idiosyncratic understanding of the term given that he puts it alongside "unconstitutional monarchy", which would generally be regarded as its very antithesis.

A careful reading of _The Lord of the Rings _shows that there seems to be some sort of literal "divine right of kings" going on, at least regarding the rule of Gondor.  I don't know whether that reveals anything about Tolkien's real world political beliefs or whether it was just something that he thought made a good story.


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## punisher73 (May 24, 2012)

Not popular, but Tolkein, along with CS Lewis were both Christians and wrote many allegorical elements into their stories about their faith.  From a Christian standpoint, there are many that feel in a perfect Christian community, you would not need any government because everyone would be looking out for and helping each other.  So, in it's loosest sense of anarchy meaning no formal government, then I can see that.  Same with a "divine monarchy" going with the Christian viewpoint of God being that divine monarch as the Hebrews used to have before King Saul.


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## Makalakumu (May 25, 2012)

I can see the ring as a metaphor for the use of force in society, but the contradictions of the importance of the bloodline kings are glaring.  If Hobbiton is the ideal and the Power of the West is also the ideal, there are no underlying principles.  One of these places cannot exist if the philosophy is to be adhered to.


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## Tez3 (May 25, 2012)

Remember when the Lord of the Rings was written, at a dark time for Britain and the world, be careful too of reading to much into something that was written as fiction. Tolkien used his writing to explore what was his main subject, languages. He also researched through languages fairy tales, folk stories and the like. It's very popular for people to delve into his work and see a great deal he didn't put in. It's a work of fantasy fiction it doesn't have to always mean something.


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## Xue Sheng (May 25, 2012)

Makalakumu said:


> I've been a fan of Tolkien since I was young and I've heard this rumor again and again and again.  Is there any truth to it?  Can you see this philosophy in his work?  *What do you think about this?*



Does it matter. Would you be more of a fan or less of a fan if he was or wasnt


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## zDom (May 25, 2012)

punisher73 said:


> Not popular, but Tolkein, along with CS Lewis were both Christians and wrote many allegorical elements into their stories about their faith.  From a Christian standpoint, there are many that feel in a perfect Christian community, you would not need any government because everyone would be looking out for and helping each other.  So, in it's loosest sense of anarchy meaning no formal government, then I can see that.  Same with a "divine monarchy" going with the Christian viewpoint of God being that divine monarch as the Hebrews used to have before King Saul.



To clarify, Lewis wrote allegories but JRRT despised them (many, many quotes on this subject).


JRRT wrote a fictional world that he felt was consistent with Catholic/Christian beliefs.

Any connections you make may be fun to explore but they were not conscious attempts by the author to make any point about anything. He was just trying to create an epic mythology for England; he was just telling stories.

There are many, MANY biblical elements that can be seen throughout his works, however, if that is what you meant.

I recently wrote a very long, probably boring term paper on this exact subject


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## Xue Sheng (May 25, 2012)

Why is the song Anarchy In The UK now running though my demented little noggin :uhyeah:


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## Tez3 (May 25, 2012)

One of my pet hates is book clubs, I can't think of anything worse than sitting discussing a book you've read to bits so that everything you enjoyed about the book is analysed to death so that you don't enjoy it anymore. People will find things that resonate for them in any book, they may recognise situations, feelings etc in books that seem personal to them or they see as have greater meanings for the world, however most authors don't write with that aim in mind. Authors of fiction write for many reasons, mostly though to entertain and hopefully make them money. the advice given to budding authors is write about what you know, Tolkien wrote about what he knew which adds depth to his writings, that his best subjects were languages and Christianity are incidental. He knew his own religion best so it made sense to write from that point of view, as zDom has said, he wrote fiction that was consistent with his views. If he wrote from a different or non religious view the stories may have lacked depth as he wasn't as au fait with other beliefs.

'Biblical' stories are commonly found in other religions and cultures too.


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## Tez3 (May 25, 2012)

Xue Sheng said:


> Why is the song Anarchy In The UK now running though my demented little noggin :uhyeah:



Cos under our polite, nicely spoken exteriors all Brits are anarchists at heart!


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## granfire (May 25, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> One of my pet hates is book clubs, I can't think of anything worse than sitting discussing a book you've read to bits so that everything you enjoyed about the book is analysed to death so that you don't enjoy it anymore. People will find things that resonate for them in any book, they may recognise situations, feelings etc in books that seem personal to them or they see as have greater meanings for the world, however most authors don't write with that aim in mind. Authors of fiction write for many reasons, mostly though to entertain and hopefully make them money. the advice given to budding authors is write about what you know, Tolkien wrote about what he knew which adds depth to his writings, that his best subjects were languages and Christianity are incidental. He knew his own religion best so it made sense to write from that point of view, as zDom has said, he wrote fiction that was consistent with his views. If he wrote from a different or non religious view the stories may have lacked depth as he wasn't as au fait with other beliefs.
> 
> 'Biblical' stories are commonly found in other religions and cultures too.



I guess you only need to read books then you would otherwise not touch!  (ok, but reading should not be a chore...so there, I don't know)

One of the funnier things I ever saw was 'Back to School' with Rodney Dangerfield. He had the author himself write the book report for him and the English professor dismissed it 'this person had no idea what the author was saying!')


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## punisher73 (May 25, 2012)

zDom said:


> To clarify, Lewis wrote allegories but JRRT despised them (many, many quotes on this subject).
> 
> 
> JRRT wrote a fictional world that he felt was consistent with Catholic/Christian beliefs.
> ...



More along the lines of what I meant.  I should have seperated the two contemporaries, Lewis and Tolkien.  Both were Christian, but Lewis wrote the Chronicles of Narnia as an allegory.  I did not mean that Tolkien did the same.  Tolkien had aspects of his beliefs (Christianity) in his works and so we would expect to find them.  It is not popular in many circles to discuss a popular author's orientations even though they are a part of the process whether conscious or unconscious.


Reminds me of the intro to Huckleberry Finn by Mark Twain...


> *The Adventures of*
> *Huckleberry Finn*
> by
> *Mark Twain*
> ...


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## Sukerkin (May 25, 2012)

Can I ask the foundation of this idea that Tolkien's works were Christian in any sense?  From what I know they were anything but as they are grounded in Celtic and Norse mythology.  I suppose that it can be argued that the Christian mythology was founded as much upon them as it was Babylonian mysticism but that's as close as it gets.


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## Tez3 (May 25, 2012)

Sukerkin said:


> Can I ask the foundation of this idea that Tolkien's works were Christian in any sense? From what I know they were anything but as they are grounded in Celtic and Norse mythology. I suppose that it can be argued that the Christian mythology was founded as much upon them as it was Babylonian mysticism but that's as close as it gets.



http://atheism.about.com/od/cslewisnarnia/a/jrrtolkein.htm


I have to laugh when people talk about CS Lewis being obviously Christian because I read the books when I was young and it totally went over my head! I suppose not being brought up Christian meant I missed all the signs lol. I can't say though that young children reading his books would find it full of Christian messages because I don't think children read into things perhaps as deeply as adults do.


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## zDom (May 29, 2012)

Sukerkin said:


> Can I ask the foundation of this idea that Tolkien's works were Christian in any sense?  From what I know they were anything but as they are grounded in Celtic and Norse mythology.  I suppose that it can be argued that the Christian mythology was founded as much upon them as it was Babylonian mysticism but that's as close as it gets.



If you want, I will email my paper to you 

Evidently I am unable to answer this question in less than 20-odd pages =)


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## Makalakumu (May 29, 2012)

zDom said:


> If you want, I will email my paper to you
> 
> Evidently I am unable to answer this question in less than 20-odd pages =)



Imagine writing an abstract and posting that.


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## elder999 (May 29, 2012)

Sukerkin said:


> Can I ask the foundation of this idea that Tolkien's works were Christian in any sense? From what I know they were anything but as they are grounded in Celtic and Norse mythology. I suppose that it can be argued that the Christian mythology was founded as much upon them as it was Babylonian mysticism but that's as close as it gets.



Think about something too much, and you'll find it:

Finding God in the  Lord of the Rings,"  written by two Protestants associated with "Focus on the Family,"

J.R.R. Tolkien's Sanctifying Myth, written from a Catholic ethical perspective, to coincide with the films release....

Tolkien: Man and Myth, written with an emphasis on Tolkien's rather pious and deep Catholicism, as well as his friendship with C.S. Lewis. In a 1953 letter Tolkien himself described The Lord of the Rings as a fundamentally religious and Catholic work.


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## Sukerkin (May 29, 2012)

You sure he didn't just mean catholic in the other sense of the word? :lol:

If the man himself said so then I guess it's so - just goes to show that a man is never going to read his own work like his readers do .


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