# Making the Connection - Balintawak Influences on Modern Arnis



## Guro Harold (Sep 30, 2011)

I saw this video here in this thread and it reminded me of the Influences and elements of Balintawak that are shown in Modern Arnis. I have not formally trained in Balintawak but I can definitely see some of the elements as shown in this clip 



.

For example, I can see Block/Check/Counter for Counter in this clip as well as Block/Check/Release. Also the cool thing about the clip is that they are practicing random strikes and not going through the 1 - 5, 12 pattern that you typically see MA students do.

What other influences do you see in this clip or other ones you would like to share?

-Thanks


----------



## fangjian (Nov 2, 2011)

[yt]UakmOLzxm28[/yt]

Here's a clip from FMA Gathering in CT a couple months ago. 

You may see some techniques or concepts that are similar to Modern Arnis like:

-We frequently use the block-check-counter with a stick up block. 
-We use similar numbering system
-Tapi Tapi, when played at a higher level, looks similar to how we spar. 
_That's about it, as far as similarities go._ 

The first style of FMA that I studied was Modern Arnis. When I started learning Balintawak, I added what I knew to what I knew of Tapi Tapi, so my Tapi Tapi was greatly improved and with more 'randomness'. Sooner or later though, I stopped Modern Arnis all together, in favor of the Balintawak, since Balintawak's single stick is a bit more refined than the way Tapi Tapi is frequently taught. Come to think of it, I wouldn't mind holding seminars at Modern Arnis schools to enhance their Tapi Tapi. That would be very cool. 


That's about it, I think. I did not know him personally, but my first guess was that Remy Presas knew that Balintawak would be extremely difficult to teach mainly in 'seminar format', since the style requires more 1-1 time. It is nearly impossible to produce good Balintawak Eskrimadors from scratch with classes that large (if Balintawak is the sole aim). Also I did remember reading that Anciong Bacon did not want him to use the name 'Balintawak'.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Nov 3, 2011)

(* I deleted the Clip *)



fangjian said:


> Here's a clip from FMA Gathering in CT a couple months ago.
> 
> You may see some techniques or concepts that are similar to Modern Arnis like:



I have said this before and I will say it again. 

Good Technique is NOT I repeat NOT Unique to a single system or culture. You should be able to find it in most martial arts. Now if that art did nto address a certain waepon or condition of environment or social issues (* legality of weapons and such *) then it may not be there, but I am sure you will find some good technique in that system that can been seen in someother system. 



fangjian said:


> -We frequently use the block-check-counter with a stick up block.
> -We use similar numbering system
> -Tapi Tapi, when played at a higher level, looks similar to how we spar.
> _That's about it, as far as similarities go._



I teach both. The Differences are great and subtle, and there are more things in common than I can start to list. 

Balintawak - GM Bacon - Founder 
Started training single stick when GM Lorenzo Saavedra took away his kamagong (hardwood) dagger that had a nice point on it that people would bleed when he poked you with it. It as also the golden age of Stick Sparring and Dueling. So much of the system was developed around Stick Dueling. 

Modern Arnis - GM Presas - Founder
He studied with Family members (* Grandfather and Uncle *) and then left home early and trained with who ever he could. He ended up in Cebu where he trained with GM Moncal (Left hander just like GM Presas), where GM Moncol introduced him to GM Maranga. After some training with GM Maranga he was intgroduced and trained with GM Bacon. (* I use the titles of GM for Moncol and Maranga as that is now how they are referred too. They were were no a GM at the time. I am only trying to show proper respect to those who went before me and those whose lineage is through them as well. *)

Remy beat up GM Delfin Lopez's Nephew, as the nephew was talking big and said he could beat anyone. Delfin started looking for Remy. (* I was told to call Remy by Remy himself.  I know others had a different relationship it is not meant as a sign of disrespect. Also When told this story by my Balintawak Instructor GM Ted Buot ( The only person to teach at the club on Balintawak street besides GM Bacon ) he used their first names. *) Delfin was known as a tough fighter. So was Remy. Remy even asked GM Bacon if he could take Delfin. GM Bacon would elt you know if you were outclassed. He stated it could go either way, but remember Delfin fights with a stick in his right hand and a .45 in his left hand. 

Remy choose to leave versus dealing with a blood fued. When he left he talked with GM Bacon. Remy asked if there would be a problem with him teaching what he ahd learned. GM Bacon said no. Now here is where it gets a little fuzzy. Some have heard the story that GM Bacon stated he should not call it Balintawak as he ALSO teaches his family system, and GM Bacon wanted Balintawak to be what he had taught. So some say GM Bacon requested he did not call it Balintawak, others say he told him he would not call it Balintawak. Either way it was a private discussion between two men who parted as friends.


The Naming of the art Modern Arnis is longer story itself and I believe can be found on the net. 



fangjian said:


> The first style of FMA that I studied was Modern Arnis. When I started learning Balintawak, I added what I knew to what I knew of Tapi Tapi, so my Tapi Tapi was greatly improved and with more 'randomness'. Sooner or later though, I stopped Modern Arnis all together, in favor of the Balintawak, since Balintawak's single stick is a bit more refined than the way Tapi Tapi is frequently taught. Come to think of it, I wouldn't mind holding seminars at Modern Arnis schools to enhance their Tapi Tapi. That would be very cool.



I also started training in Modern Arnis. My First Art is Modern Arnis. My Second Art is Balintawak. 
I teach both.  They are both good systems. 

Who was your Modern Arnis Instructor and how long did you train and what rank if any did you have? 

Also I have met and worked with your Balintawak instructor Eugene. Talk to him and ask him questions about me, if you want.  




fangjian said:


> That's about it, I think. I did not know him personally, but my first guess was that Remy Presas knew that Balintawak would be extremely difficult to teach mainly in 'seminar format', since the style requires more 1-1 time. It is nearly impossible to produce good Balintawak Eskrimadors from scratch with classes that large (if Balintawak is the sole aim). Also I did remember reading that Anciong Bacon did not want him to use the name 'Balintawak'.



I knew Remy personally. I also know Ted personally. Both trained with GM Bacon. Remy Trained with others, Ted only with GM Bacon. 

I agree that any system that has more 1 on 1 training will have better students as the instructor can correct errors and small error even sooner. 

That being said, I have never found one system to be better than another in completeness. I have found one to be better in concentrations, yes. i.e. a Grappling art versus a Striking art. But, if you look at grappling to grappling I have not seen a better one. Stricking to Striking I have not seen a better one. That is like say I have a truck and a sports car. The truck is better at towing and off roading, while the sports car beats it at zero to 60 and top speed. Not really a good comparison, even though Consumers Reports and other auto mags will sometimes make such a comparison.  

I have found superior Athletes and superior skilled individuals, not systems.

I am glad Balintawak connected for you, yet I would not discount Modern Arnis, nor any other FMA. 

(* see above for using Balintawak *)


----------



## fangjian (Nov 3, 2011)

Rich Parsons said:


> (* I deleted the Clip *)
> Who was your Modern Arnis Instructor and how long did you train and what rank if any did you have?
> 
> Also I have met and worked with your Balintawak instructor Eugene. Talk to him and ask him questions about me, if you want.


I first practiced FMA with Frank Shekosky of CT. I'm pretty sure my rank was 1st Brown Belt or 2nd Brown Belt. Something like that


> I am glad Balintawak connected for you, yet I would not discount Modern Arnis, nor any other FMA.


hahahaha. I don't discount anything. I posted on the Modern Arnis SECTION. Starting an argument here would be stupid of me. Yes, I like Balintawak better. It would be similar if I said "I stopped doing Modern Arnis to pursue Muay Thai, since my favorite thing to do is kick, and Muay Thai's kicks are practiced more so. "
Balintawak trains single stick dueling *way* more than Modern Arnis does. And that's what I enjoy doing. I hate doing double stick amongst other things. 





(* see above for using Balintawak *)[/QUOTE]


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman (Nov 4, 2011)

> I first practiced FMA with Frank Shekosky of CT. I'm pretty sure my rank was 1st Brown Belt or 2nd Brown Belt. Something like that
> 
> Balintawak trains single stick dueling *way* more than Modern Arnis does. And that's what I enjoy doing. I hate doing double stick amongst other things.



You are right, Balintawak is designed for stick dueling. It is designed to fight other trained fighters. It has a very specific purpose. That is also it's weakness. To practice it you need trained partner. It also doesn't deal with practical self defense much. 

It's a shame you don't like the double stick training. There are a lot of good attributes that can be derived from this type of training.

Now this isn't a shot against Frank but, before you draw any conclusions about Modern Arnis you should train with people who specialize in the system. The problem with many systems these days is that people are cross training in from other systems. Especially in the FMA. Master Parsons and myself are very fortunate to have started our training in full time Modern Arnis schools. Not a club that offers it once maybe twice a week.

As far as being hard to the masses, you are correct. But hard is not impossible. You attended the Modern Arnis camp, where Master Parsons was teaching. I teach Balintawak seminars quite a bit myself. The biggest Balintawak seminar was 65 people when I was in Denmark. The hard part is not the teaching, it's the corrections. That's the same in any system though. The trick is not going beyond the level of the people attend and keeping it simple. 

That's my rant for now. Got to get ready for a tournament and seminar for the weekend.
:asian:


----------



## fangjian (Nov 4, 2011)

Datu Tim Hartman said:


> You are right, Balintawak is designed for stick dueling. It is designed to fight other trained fighters. It has a very specific purpose. That is also it's weakness. To practice it you need trained partner. It also doesn't deal with practical self defense much.


Right. 'regular self defense' is realized after you trained Balintawak for a while, and your reflexes are sharp. 


> It's a shame you don't like the double stick training. There are a lot of good attributes that can be derived from this type of training.


Yeah, I don't what it is. I just simply don't enjoy it. I'm sure you also have things you enjoy more than others. 

I do teach it to my students 'cause I want them to be well rounded eskrimadors. Modern Arnis is similar to Doce Pares in a way, because I regard these two 'styles' as more like a 'general FMA curriculum'. They do a bit of everything. Single Double stick, Punta y daga,  Sword, empty hands...................

I teach EVERYTHING at my place too. I just enjoy the stick dueling too much.


> Now this isn't a shot against Frank but, before you draw any conclusions about Modern Arnis you should train with people who specialize in the system. The problem with many systems these days is that people are cross training in from other systems. Especially in the FMA. Master Parsons and myself are very fortunate to have started our training in full time Modern Arnis schools. Not a club that offers it once maybe twice a week.



For those who 'specialize' in Modern Arnis. I am positive that you're all great at what you do. I've just come to the conclusion that it might not be for me. I've never seen Modern Arnis videos that show a high level of dueling. 



> As far as being hard to the masses, you are correct. But hard is not impossible. You attended the Modern Arnis camp, where Master Parsons was teaching. I teach Balintawak seminars quite a bit myself. The biggest Balintawak seminar was 65 people when I was in Denmark. The hard part is not the teaching, it's the corrections. That's the same in any system though. The trick is not going beyond the level of the people attend and keeping it simple.
> 
> That's my rant for now. Got to get ready for a tournament and seminar for the weekend.
> :asian:



Yeah. It was great to meet you guys too. Sorry I was feeling ill that day, and probably came off standoffish. 

If you conduct Modern Arnis seminars for many people, say on a monthly basis, I can see them being succesful. But if you tried to teach Balintawak this way, you would just end up with a bunch of people who suck at Balintawak. It's too specialized. Modern Arnis though, you can get away with it. They will eventually have a decent understanding of FMA and Modern Arnis.

Enjoy your trip.


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman (Nov 4, 2011)

> If you conduct Modern Arnis seminars for many people, say on a monthly basis, I can see them being succesful. But if you tried to teach Balintawak this way, you would just end up with a bunch of people who suck at Balintawak. It's too specialized. Modern Arnis though, you can get away with it. They will eventually have a decent understanding of FMA and Modern Arnis.



Are you saying Balintawak people are lazy and need one on one training to push them. I have long distance Balintawak students that I only get to see 3 -5 times a year. They do very well in their training. I don't teach them more than they can handle and I talk with them on the phone quite often. What about the other GMs that are teaching seminars? Their long distance students seem to be doing fine. An instructor can only teach, the student still has to do their work. 

As far as comparing Balintawak to Modern Arnis, it's like comparing apples to oranges. The Balintawak is a striped down system dealing with 1 on 1 dueling. Modern Arnis is designed to be more versatile. It covers basic self defense to stick on stick combat. In the Black Belt levels the emphasis is geared more towards the combatives. It's possible if you had went farther in you Modern Arnis training or made an effort to work with other people you made been exposed to more. 

On a side note, just because something is not on You Tube doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.:yoda:


----------



## Rich Parsons (Nov 4, 2011)

fangjian said:


> Right. 'regular self defense' is realized after you trained Balintawak for a while, and your reflexes are sharp.
> 
> Yeah, I don't what it is. I just simply don't enjoy it. I'm sure you also have things you enjoy more than others.
> 
> ...



Some learn Balintawak via the Modified methods, others the Grouping methods, and others in the random or original method. 

Some learn it by seminars and some also have videos to assist. 

I personally teach one on one for personal students. So I understand what you are trying to say about one on one learning. Yet, I also do seminars and that the students there are learning singles and not the art as I teach it. . I tell people this at the seminars. 

What I do not do, is discount other teaching methods, or systems as you have. I really do not wish to get into a non value added arguement here. If it is an arguement as in a debate where one presents their points and each sides address the points and even acknowledges the others points from time to time, then it can be value added. Yet, it seems to me you have insulted and degraded other arts and other organizations that teach slightly differently than you. You may be reflecting a bad image upon yourself and also upon your instructor(s). 

As to our meeting, I had thought about calling your instructor and talking to him. I choose not to at that time. I would have to say "Standoffish" would not be how I would describe it nor what I would say. Given what you said to others, I really wish you would have said it to me directly. And yet, when I was coming by to make sure you and another attendee that day were getting the technique I was presenting, you seemed totally out of it. Eyes flutter up in your head, and not looking directly at me and not speaking directly to me when I spoke to you. I chose to go with your public comment of not feeling well and let it go. Yet given your words here I have to ask myself if that really was the case. 

Good luck in training and promoting Balintawak. I hope to see you in 2013 in Buffalo area, as I really look forward to also meeting and talking with Master Zack Taco. 

Thanks


----------



## fangjian (Nov 4, 2011)

Datu Tim Hartman said:


> Are you saying Balintawak people are lazy and need one on one training to push them. I have long distance Balintawak students that I only get to see 3 -5 times a year. They do very well in their training. I don't teach them more than they can handle and I talk with them on the phone quite often. What about the other GMs that are teaching seminars? Their long distance students seem to be doing fine. An instructor can only teach, the student still has to do their work.


Really. I'm intrigued. 
Do these long distance students train with a partner at home, or do they just hang out in their driveway and swing at ghosts like Anciong Buang in the '40's ? 

Also I do not get to play often w/ other Balintawak players and was thinking of making a couple trips within the next 6 months.  Maybe visit Nene G or Tabimina etc. I would also like to play with someone who claims to teach 'original' style. Should I make Buffalo one of my trip locations?



> As far as comparing Balintawak to Modern Arnis, it's like comparing apples to oranges. The Balintawak is a striped down system dealing with 1 on 1 dueling. Modern Arnis is designed to be more versatile. It covers basic self defense to stick on stick combat. In the Black Belt levels the emphasis is geared more towards the combatives. It's possible if you had went farther in you Modern Arnis training or made an effort to work with other people you made been exposed to more.


Right. And between apples and oranges, there is one I like better for my own reasons.

I am not saying Modern Arnis sucks. Remy Presas is the reason that I am an eskrimador today. If I had stayed with Modern Arnis I would've gotten better at it, of course.
But are you telling me that at a higher level MA, stick dueling is at a level comparable with Balintawak?  I don't think so. ( and I don't mean a 1-1 sparring match, I mean dueling the way it's done in Balintawak).  

Modern Arnis (like Doce Pares, how I mentioned earlier) is really cool because it does _everything_, and you can dictate what kind of player you wanna be. Single stick eskrimador, double stick eskrimador, knife fighter...........It lets you explore yourself. For some, maybe it showed them how much they love kickboxing, and that they enjoy that more, so they quit MA and joined a Muay Thai/TKD gym. For some, they realize that they love it all equally so MA is their thing. For me, it showed me that I love FMA and want to be proficient in all of it. But I really wanna master single stick dueling. Balintawak was my answer. Is that fair?
 Don't know if you could answer but in your opinion who (or what 'school') do you think is best at stick dueling in the Modern Arnis world the way Balintawak does it?  I know a lot of different MA people have gone their own way and emphasize different things. I wouldn't mind learning from the ones who train the dueling more so.


> On a side note, just because something is not on You Tube doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.:yoda:



True. But I would say, most of the styles that are out there, you can find clips of the top people in action and how they move. I do not doubt that there exists a MA player or PTK player that would completely PWN me.


----------



## fangjian (Nov 4, 2011)

Rich Parsons said:


> What I do not do, is discount other teaching methods, or systems as you have.



So if someone says that they enjoy Kickboxing more than anything else and choose to take up Sikaran or TKD over Modern Arnis or PTK or whatever, they are then discounting Modern Arnis or PTK?


> As to our meeting, I had thought about calling your instructor and talking to him. I choose not to at that time. I would have to say "Standoffish" would not be how I would describe it nor what I would say.


What would you need to talk to my teachers about exactly?  





> Given what you said to others, I really wish you would have said it to me directly.


Tell you _what_ directly? Idk what you're talkin about


> And yet, when I was coming by to make sure you and another attendee that day were getting the technique I was presenting, you seemed totally out of it. Eyes flutter up in your head, and not looking directly at me and not speaking directly to me when I spoke to you. I chose to go with your public comment of not feeling well and let it go. Yet given your words here I have to ask myself if that really was the case.


Let _what_ go? What _words_ here? I also prefer Wushu forms over TKD forms/Modern Arnis forms/Shotokan forms.   Is that an issue too?
What are you suggesting _the case_ is ?

I found out the following month I had Lyme Disease the entire time. 


> Good luck in training and promoting Balintawak. I hope to see you in 2013 in Buffalo area, as I really look forward to also meeting and talking with Master Zack Taco.
> 
> Thanks


Master Zack's a fun guy. He's good company.


----------



## fangjian (Nov 4, 2011)

Rich Parsons said:


> That is like say I have a truck and a sports car. The truck is better at towing and off roading, while the sports car beats it at zero to 60 and top speed. Not really a good comparison, even though Consumers Reports and other auto mags will sometimes make such a comparison.


I would choose the truck.
Is it ok if I like the aspects of: *towing things and off-roading more so* rather than how much torque there is when going 0-60   ?


----------



## Rich Parsons (Nov 4, 2011)

fangjian said:


> So if someone says that they enjoy Kickboxing more than anything else and choose to take up Sikaran or TKD over Modern Arnis or PTK or whatever, they are then discounting Modern Arnis or PTK?



You are misunderstanding what I am writing or choosing to not see what I am writing. 

You say if they do not train like you they will be bad Balintawak practitioners. 
I say all forms of teaching and practicing can lead to a bad practitioner and a good practitioner. It depends upon the individual not the system or teaching method. Now that being said, someone may learn easier in one method over another, and they might be drawn to that method, and they might have better success with that method. Which is good, but do not discount the other methods is all I am saying. 

As to arts, I have my favorites as well and I train and teach them. I do not expect people to quit an art because I do not like it as much as another. 

I also would not tell them they are bad or worse because of their system. I would say, oh so and so beat you. Ok that was that day and time. Go back and practice and see what happens next time. 




fangjian said:


> What would you need to talk to my teachers about exactly?



Your comments and how you came across. This way you could have been coached. 



fangjian said:


> Tell you _what_ directly? Idk what you're talkin about
> Let _what_ go? What _words_ here?



You told others at the seminar that you only brought your cane is some one want to exchange with you. I would have been more than glad to exchange with you. This is not a threat. I enjoy training and working with others. I really do. Eugene staid at my house and we trained in my living room. We exchanged, and if I feel confortable doingit with your isntructor I would also feel confortable doing it with you. All you had to do was ask. Instead you made it sound like people would challenge you and call you out, which by doing in the manner you did others thought you might be there to challenge me.  I wish you had said that then and there and directly to me, so I could have verified and also addressed any concerns you may have had. 





fangjian said:


> I also prefer Wushu forms over TKD forms/Modern Arnis forms/Shotokan forms. Is that an issue too?



You kept saying that if people do not train just like you, that they will be bad. Different is not bad. Different is different. 




fangjian said:


> What are you suggesting _the case_ is ?



The case of you really being sick, or were you looking to test yourself out. 

I spar with people all the time. I get hit. I also hit back. I feel confortable with that exchange. I also do it with control so no one has to get hurt. I acknowledge when others had a good strike and or block. Acknowledging the success of an opponent does not take anything away from you, in my opinion. I will have my successes as well. 




fangjian said:


> I found out the following month I had Lyme Disease the entire time.



Sorry to read about you having Lime Disease. Maybe you really were not feeling well. Yet, as stated, you seem to be calling out all the organizations that do not train as you do. Note: I presonally train one on one and teach singles at seminars for introduction to the art. So I am much closer to how you train, and I am asking the question not from a personal slighted issue, but that it seems you are insulting others. 



fangjian said:


> Master Zack's a fun guy. He's good company.



I have heard and read good things about Zack. I hope to meet him and enjoy many years of conversation with him afterwards.


----------



## fangjian (Nov 4, 2011)

Rich Parsons said:


> You are misunderstanding what I am writing or choosing to not see what I am writing.
> 
> You say if they do not train like you they will be bad Balintawak practitioners.


If you wanna be a good Balintawak player, don't train like I do. I hope I can train more seriously in the next few months. 





> I say all forms of teaching and practicing can lead to a bad practitioner and a good practitioner. It depends upon the individual not the system or teaching method. Now that being said, someone may learn easier in one method over another, and they might be drawn to that method, and they might have better success with that method. Which is good, but do not discount the other methods is all I am saying.


 True



> Your comments and how you came across. This way you could have been coached.


So you wanted to call my teachers and tell them that I showed up and wanted to palakaw with you guys? That's what Balintawak players do when they get together. 





> You told others at the seminar that you only brought your cane is some one want to exchange with you. I would have been more than glad to exchange with you. This is not a threat. I enjoy training and working with others. I really do. Eugene staid at my house and we trained in my living room. We exchanged, and if I feel confortable doingit with your isntructor I would also feel confortable doing it with you. All you had to do was ask. Instead you made it sound like people would challenge you and call you out, which by doing in the manner you did others thought you might be there to challenge me.  I wish you had said that then and there and directly to me, so I could have verified and also addressed any concerns you may have had.


Hmm I don't remember talking much to anyone. I worked with one guy when I was there and I talked to Datu Tim for a few minutes. I don't remember saying that to anyone. I *did* write that to you and Datu Tim though. When I got there you guys were in the middle of the seminar. By the time the seminar was over I just wasn't up to it anymore. I wanted to go home. 
Yes that is the reason I came. I don't get to play with a lot of different Balintawak people. I was excited that their was a couple people in CT that 'knew' what Balintawak is.    hahaha 
People there thought I was there to 'challenge you'?!  hahahaahhahaahha That's awesome. Like the 19th Century. I would never do that. I get hurt to easy. And when I was there I was still 'post surgery'. I was a mess. Ahhhhhh so that's why you wanted to call my teacher. Now that makes sense. 



> The case of you really being sick, or were you looking to test yourself out.
> 
> Sorry to read about you having Lime Disease. Maybe you really were not feeling well. Yet, as stated, you seem to be calling out all the organizations that do not train as you do. Note: I presonally train one on one and teach singles at seminars for introduction to the art. So I am much closer to how you train, and I am asking the question not from a personal slighted issue, but that it seems you are insulting others.



Yes I was sick. I was still post hip surgery. But I still showed up and wanted to play. So you are right about both. But again, I just simply wasn't up for it anymore after a couple hours of standing. 

You can 'check my defense' in 2013 in Buffalo, Mr parsons 


One last thing. 

When I'm telling you guys 'sorry if I seemed a bit off, standoffish or etc.' It's because I knew from talking to people that I may have sounded either, rude, not paying attention etc, and just didn't mean it. It has nothing to do with me wanting to cross sticks with you and Tim. That *is* why I showed up. I am upset that we didn't get around to it. 

It actually still goes on today as I am having tremendous trouble with my studies since getting Lyme again. We are starting to consider that the Lyme may have started or aggravated a learning disability like Dyslexia or ADD or something. I have had to tell my professors about it as I've been having trouble keeping up with course material since.


----------



## fangjian (Nov 4, 2011)

Sorry to anyone who practice Balintawak only in seminar format. In retrospect I do sound like a jerk, and I don't even necessarily believe that. 

If you are familiar with the history of the Balintawak, you will know that Anciong created a lot of his attributes by himself with out a training partner. Much of my skill was honed while training b myself in the yard. I would pick random leaves on a bush and strike them with power. The goals would change. Maybe to take little pieces off of this one tiny leaf until it was gone. Sometimes to send my stick flying through the bush while not touching anything. If I was off by an inch in either direction I'd hit one of the branches. This training I did allowed me to have a lot of confidence in the accuracy and control of my strike so that when I did it with a real person, I'd have no fear of accidentally hitting them in the wrong spot or anything. Anyone reading this, try this training. It has great value. I had my student do this while I was working with someone else. he continued to do it at home and came back to me the following week with beautiful and precise strikes. Nice to see someone actually do what you tell them.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 4, 2011)

fangjian said:


> . Much of my skill was honed while training b myself in the yard. I would pick random leaves on a bush and strike them with power. The goals would change. Maybe to take little pieces off of this one tiny leaf until it was gone. Sometimes to send my stick flying through the bush while not touching anything. If I was off by an inch in either direction I'd hit one of the branches. This training I did allowed me to have a lot of confidence in the accuracy and control of my strike so that when I did it with a real person, I'd have no fear of accidentally hitting them in the wrong spot or anything. Anyone reading this, try this training. It has great value. I had my student do this while I was working with someone else. he continued to do it at home and came back to me the following week with beautiful and precise strikes. Nice to see someone actually do what you tell them.



 This is ONE WAY I personally have always judged the quality of a  Balintawak player. back in the early 90's I gave a demo with one of my  top students and there was someone who said they trained in Balintawak  and yet when we got don the first thing they said was we swung to hard  and got to close for their liking. Which struck me funny because GGM  Bacon always said if yo can stop the stick at just a fraction of an inch  from your target their is never any question of weather or not you  could of actually made contact, and if you accidentally made contact..oh  well that's Balintawak!




Rocky


----------



## Rich Parsons (Nov 4, 2011)

fangjian said:


> If you wanna be a good Balintawak player, don't train like I do. I hope I can train more seriously in the next few months. True
> 
> 
> So you wanted to call my teachers and tell them that I showed up and wanted to palakaw with you guys? That's what Balintawak players do when they get together. Hmm I don't remember talking much to anyone. I worked with one guy when I was there and I talked to Datu Tim for a few minutes. I don't remember saying that to anyone. I *did* write that to you and Datu Tim though. When I got there you guys were in the middle of the seminar. By the time the seminar was over I just wasn't up to it anymore. I wanted to go home.
> ...



As stated, I have no problem working, playing with others I was not worried, but given your words here, and your actions then it was a question I wanted to ask. Understand I truly was disappointed that you had not talked to me then in person.


----------



## fangjian (Nov 4, 2011)

Rich Parsons said:


> As stated, I have no problem working, playing with others I was not worried, but given your words here, and your actions then it was a question I wanted to ask. Understand I truly was disappointed that you had not talked to me then in person.



I understand your side of this whole thing now. 


See you in 2013 brotha


----------



## fangjian (Nov 5, 2011)

Also to note. I was very hesitant and felt bad to join in on the seminar. I didn't pay. The money people pay to take part in the seminar goes to those who are conducting it, as they need to pay their travel expenses somehow. I didn't pay so I felt a lot of reluctance to join in and take away from those who did pay. Brian and Tim insisted and are very kind so I joined in despite my feelings. 


To get this thread back into something interesting instead of me and Mr Parsons going back and forth:

I'm sure there are other threads that have gone over this and I've probably read them already but back to the impact of Balintawak on Modern Arnis.

Starting at 1:13, this is my favorite Modern Arnis clip on the net. 

[yt]Er99t7SvuUg[/yt]

His 'feeding' looks the most similar (compared to any other videos I've seen of MA or RP in general) to how we agak. His agak is very smooth. You can see he is Balintawak by his comfort level up close and his posture. How I would've loved to cross sticks with him.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 5, 2011)

You should of seen the old mans Block n Lock he picked up from Maranga, it was design to wreek havoc witj Traditional Balintawak , and Remy was tje Master of it.....RockySorry about typos, I'm using my phone!


----------



## Rich Parsons (Nov 5, 2011)

Rocky said:


> You should of seen the old mans Block n Lock he picked up from Maranga, it was design to wreek havoc witj Traditional Balintawak , and Remy was tje Master of it.....RockySorry about typos, I'm using my phone!



Rocky, I was going to comment on this. GM Bacon did not have the Trunka that GM Presas put into his system. I know he got some from Maranga, others he developed himself. I just like giving credit where credit is due (* as I know you do as well based upon your post *), and that not everything cool from Modern Arnis is from Balintawak.


Thanks

Rich


----------



## fangjian (Nov 5, 2011)

Rocky said:


> You should of seen the old mans Block n Lock he picked up from Maranga, it was design to wreek havoc witj Traditional Balintawak , and Remy was tje Master of it.....RockySorry about typos, I'm using my phone!



What's that?  Like what "Serrada" style does?

Or like Remy Presas' stuff he does in the above video. stick trapping and stuff    ?


----------



## Rocky (Nov 5, 2011)

fangjian said:


> What's that?  Like what "Serrada" style does?
> 
> Or like Remy Presas' stuff he does in the above video. stick trapping and stuff    ?




No Serrada's Lock N Block is more like Modern Arnis's Latigo de Baston (Largo & Corto ) Remy quit teaching it back in the late 80's because  its speed complexity and footwork was tough to convey in seminars. Remys Block in lock is also very hard to teach in seminars its very aggressive and timing is a must it works or it doesn't its kind of like some of those old Japanese samurai moves, if it work you win if not you're F@^ked.

Rocky


----------



## fangjian (Nov 5, 2011)

Rocky said:


> No Serrada's Lock N Block is more like Modern Arnis's Latigo de Baston (Largo & Corto ) Remy quit teaching it back in the late 80's because  its speed complexity and footwork was tough to convey in seminars. Remys Block in lock is also very hard to teach in seminars its very aggressive and timing is a must it works or it doesn't its kind of like some of those old Japanese samurai moves, if it work you win if not you're F@^ked.
> 
> Rocky



Any videos you know of, that show what you speak of?


----------



## Rocky (Nov 13, 2011)

Sorry to take so long to get back, as far as videos go, yes I do have a bunch of stuff with Remy on Beta and vhs, I need to get it transferred one of these days....but right now I have nothing to upload.



Rocky


----------



## fangjian (Nov 13, 2011)

Rocky said:


> Sorry to take so long to get back, as far as videos go, yes I do have a bunch of stuff with Remy on Beta and vhs, I need to get it transferred one of these days....but right now I have nothing to upload.
> 
> 
> 
> Rocky



Yeah. Everyone who has old Eskrima videos, try not to procrastinate too much   All it will take is a little freak flooding and priceless stuff could be gone forever.


----------

