# Defensive Tactics...



## jks9199 (Feb 11, 2008)

DT... What is it?  What are cops taught?  What should they be taught?

Here on MT, most of us are pretty serious martial artists.  We voluntarily spend several to many (to way too many, if you ask spouses & friends) hours practicing the intricacies of dealing with a person in hand-to-hand combat.

Cops and LEOs in general spend a lot of time putting their training in Defensive Tactics into use, so it stands to reason that they spend a lot of time on it, both in the academy, and in-service training, right?

WRONG!  In fact, most law enforcement DT training is pretty brief, and many agencies rarely do in-service DT!

What is DT?  Well, it's not only going hands on with someone; DT generally covers all the various issues of protecting oneself from physical assault, as well as the unique areas of policing like handcuffing, searching buildings, handling a crowd...  All that stuff that has to do with keeping yourself safe in the field.  A pretty typical academy is 6 months or so long.  In that time, the recruits will spend one or two weeks on the track, learning to drive.  They'll spend another week or two at the range, learning to shoot.  They'll have a week or two of odd-ball topics, like first aid/CPR or radar school.  So... now we're down to 5 months.  Or less.  What it ends up amounting to is that a typical DT program would be about 3 to 4 weeks long, at best, if done 8 hours a day, with no other training.  But it's rarely taught that way... Instead, most academies I'm familiar with alternate DT training and PT training every day, for about 2 to 3 hours, for about 8 weeks.  Yeah... Not much.  And when you figure that a couple of those DT days are dedicated to search or arrest training and practice... it gets even shorter.  Maybe 40 to 60 hours...  and that includes baton!  

So... it ends up that most cops get taught a very quick & dirty class with simple, hopefully effective and easily retained techniques.  The exact curriculum varies, but generally includes falling, simple knee strikes, low kicks, a couple of check/block techniques, a couple of palm and fist strikes to various targets, a couple of throws or takedowns, and some control holds, as well as a few effective pressure points for control or motivation.

So... within that framework... what would YOU suggest be included?  Remember -- it's got to be something that can be taught to someone with no prior experience quickly, and it's got to be scalable to a use of force model.  (Cops can't put everyone they deal with into a rear naked choke; that counts as lethal force.)


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## MarkBarlow (Feb 11, 2008)

Unfortunately, you pointed out the major problem to expanding the curriculum.  Time. There isn't nearly enough time given to such a serious aspect of a LEO's job.  I know plenty of cops who have never drawn their gun but I don't know of any who don't have to physically restrain, if not outright fight, someone on a regular basis.  

On the bright side, by keeping the DT techniques simple, the chance that they'll be retained is greater.  If more time were allotted for DT and the time was used to teach a wider array of techniques, I think we'd be defeating the purpose.  Focus on a few and repeat until they become conditioned.


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## Drac (Feb 11, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> DT... What is it? What are cops taught? What should they be taught?
> 
> Here on MT, most of us are pretty serious martial artists. We voluntarily spend several to many (to way too many, if you ask spouses & friends) hours practicing the intricacies of dealing with a person in hand-to-hand combat.
> 
> ...


 
Yep..Too much time spent sittingin the classroom learning how to not viloate someone's civil rights..



jks9199 said:


> What is DT? Well, it's not only going hands on with someone; DT generally covers all the various issues of protecting oneself from physical assault, as well as the unique areas of policing like handcuffing, searching buildings, handling a crowd... All that stuff that has to do with keeping yourself safe in the field. A pretty typical academy is 6 months or so long. In that time, the recruits will spend one or two weeks on the track, learning to drive. They'll spend another week or two at the range, learning to shoot. They'll have a week or two of odd-ball topics, like first aid/CPR or radar school. So... now we're down to 5 months. Or less. What it ends up amounting to is that a typical DT program would be about 3 to 4 weeks long, at best, if done 8 hours a day, with no other training. But it's rarely taught that way... Instead, most academies I'm familiar with alternate DT training and PT training every day, for about 2 to 3 hours, for about 8 weeks. Yeah... Not much. And when you figure that a couple of those DT days are dedicated to search or arrest training and practice... it gets even shorter. Maybe 40 to 60 hours... and that includes baton!


 
The academys up here don't do PT here just DT 



jks9199 said:


> So... it ends up that most cops get taught a very quick & dirty class with simple, hopefully effective and easily retained techniques. The exact curriculum varies, but generally includes falling, simple knee strikes, low kicks, a couple of check/block techniques, a couple of palm and fist strikes to various targets, a couple of throws or takedowns, and some control holds, as well as a few effective pressure points for control or motivation.


 
OPOTA ( Ohio Peace Officers Training Academy) set the standards up here..A good but very basic program...When I taught in the acedemy there was always a student or 2 that picked up the basics real fast..I would then show them some techniques from Shorin-Ryu or Combat Hapkido



jks9199 said:


> So... within that framework... what would YOU suggest be included? Remember -- it's got to be something that can be taught to someone with no prior experience quickly, and it's got to be scalable to a use of force model. (Cops can't put everyone they deal with into a rear naked choke; that counts as lethal force.)


 
You pose a good question JKS..The basic punches and kicks..Elbow strikes..Some joint manipulation for defense against grabs and above weapon retention...


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## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 11, 2008)

Truthfully I can remember going through the academy and enjoying the Defensive Tactics and PPCT.  We also did some boxing which was right up my alley.  Still overall the amount of time we spent on these skills was minimal but effective enough to start the process.  My issue with departments out there is that they do not regularly (at least every three months) have a refresher course on Defensive Tactics and PPCT or another DT training regimen.  Locally we have one department that does this and also qualifies at the range every three months.  All of the other departments around here qualifiy once a year and no Defensive Tactics. :erg:  Guess which department has the best trained and most well rounded officers?


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## jks9199 (Feb 11, 2008)

The idea of a separate, police/LE program (not a black belt track program) has been advanced within our association.  It's creeping along...  

I think it's something that a lot of agencies should improve.  There's nothing (but organizational willpower) preventing an agency from implementing some sort of regular DT refresher; I know of a few that have.  But I suspect it won't be done until there's a lawsuit where the lack of training figures into it.


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## KenpoTex (Feb 12, 2008)

The problem with LE DT, as I see it, is that they spend the majority of their time working on techniques designed to restrain the subject with the minimum damage/danger possible (which is a necessary skill, don't get me wrong) and not enough time emphasising officer survival and learning to _fight _(which is a critical skill).  
As a result you have people that are really going to be in trouble if they're dealing with someone that is trying to kill them (like the traffic stop vid in the other thread) as opposed to someone who is just "resisting."
I've been certified in one DT system (CLAMP) and one of my students is a certified instructor in both CLAMP and PPCT.  From seeing material from these systems, I think there is some decent material; however, when you only spend a couple of weeks on the stuff during academy, and maybe 8 hours a year in re-cert, how good are you really gonna be?  Of course, the same thing would apply if they were teaching better material...you're only going to be good if you put in the time to practice.

I think one of the main problems with LE as regards training are that the departments don't want to spend the money for the constant training and are too concerned with civil liability.  
Then again, many if not most, officers do not have the proper mindset and therefore will not train unless the dept. is paying the bills (meaning they often only get the bare minimum).

just my $0.02


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## Drac (Feb 12, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> The idea of a separate, police/LE program (not a black belt track program) has been advanced within our association. It's creeping along...
> 
> I think it's something that a lot of agencies should improve. There's nothing (but organizational willpower) preventing an agency from implementing some sort of regular DT refresher; I know of a few that have. But I suspect it won't be done until there's a lawsuit where the lack of training figures into it.


 
Oh so true...The last sentence says is the *BEST...*


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## Archangel M (Feb 12, 2008)

Whats the general  opinion on Blauer's SPEAR system?


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## Drac (Feb 12, 2008)

kenpotex said:


> The problem with LE DT, as I see it, is that they spend the majority of their time working on techniques designed to restrain the subject with the minimum damage/danger possible (which is a necessary skill, don't get me wrong) and not enough time emphasising officer survival and learning to _fight _(which is a critical skill).


 
Very true...




kenpotex said:


> As a result you have people that are really going to be in trouble if they're dealing with someone that is trying to kill them (like the traffic stop vid in the other thread) as opposed to someone who is just "resisting."


 
Because many believe that it won't happen to them, or the standard crap I usually get here of "Hey I got my OC and Baton, I don't need any of that karotty crap"....





kenpotex said:


> I think there is some decent material; however, when you only spend a couple of weeks on the stuff during academy, and maybe 8 hours a year in re-cert, how good are you really gonna be? Of course, the same thing would apply if they were teaching better material...you're only going to be good if you put in the time to practice.


 
100% true again...



kenpotex said:


> Then again, many if not most, officers do not have the proper mindset and therefore will not train unless the dept. is paying the bills (meaning they often only get the bare minimum).


 
Sad but true..Yet these same officer will face blizzard conditions in order to show up for their bowling or dart league...


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## Drac (Feb 12, 2008)

Archangel M said:


> Whats the general opinion on Blauer's SPEAR system?


 
It works, ANYTHING will work if you practice..His training suits are *EXCELLENT..*I cannot make a comment on him as this is a family site...


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## Drac (Mar 17, 2008)

...As a couple of my Sgts said.." The skills I learned in the acedemy will serve me well" and "You know what I what to learn?? Nothing"...The academy for them was  15 or so years ago....


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## Drac (Mar 17, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> But I suspect it won't be done until there's a lawsuit where the lack of training figures into it.


 
I almost got a suspension for addressing that with a Leiutenant...I said *IF* any officer gets hurt and files a Failure -To- Train lawsuite against the department I will be called to tesify as I am a certified instructor. I will bring in all my training certs and the stack of seminar certs and Master Steve( my instructor) said he would testify as to my teaching skill ... When asked why I don't teach I will answer " Because the department ALWAYS finds a reason *NOT *to schedule a class, then you *ALL* will go down in flames.....Ohhhhh boy was THAT the wrong thing to say....


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## Brian R. VanCise (Mar 17, 2008)

Drac said:


> I almost got a suspension for addressing that with a Leiutenant...I said *IF* any officer gets hurt and files a Failure -To- Train lawsuite against the department I will be called to tesify as I am a certified instructor, then you *ALL* will go down in flames....I will bring all my training certs and when asked why I don't teach I will answer " Because the department ALWAYS finds a reason *NOT *to schedule a class.....Ohhhhh boy was THAT the wrong thing to say....


 
Ouch, yes I imagine that did not go over to well. :erg:


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## terryl965 (Mar 17, 2008)

Drac said:


> I almost got a suspension for addressing that with a Leiutenant...I said *IF* any officer gets hurt and files a Failure -To- Train lawsuite against the department I will be called to tesify as I am a certified instructor, then you *ALL* will go down in flames....I will bring all my training certs and when asked why I don't teach I will answer " Because the department ALWAYS finds a reason *NOT *to schedule a class.....Ohhhhh boy was THAT the wrong thing to say....


 
I would imagine them not liking you at all if that happens.


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## punisher73 (Mar 17, 2008)

When I went through here in Michigan, I went through the local college and took DT.  It was a 2 hr class twice a week for the semester.  It was based on PPCT although some other areas were added in.  

But, for our dept. it is bare bones minimum.  I am one of our PPCT instructors and we only train 8 hrs once or twice a year to keep everyone's certification.

We try to get it more, but $$$ won't let us.

When training, I always try to emphasize that PPCT or any other MA won't save your butt if you never practice it.  You HAVE to practice the moves on your own and make it your own.  Also, to understand the when/where/why to apply the stuff.

I know alot of guys in our dept. bad mouth PPCT and say it doesn't work, and then I review their "use of force" reports, and you have subjects that are in the "active aggressive" stage and they are trying to push on pressure points alone.  They don't understand how/when to strike in PPCT and how to use all of the tools available to gain control and protect themselves.  I think it is because use of force is so PC that people use TOO LITTLE force than is justified to prevent lawsuits etc.  But, all this does is make for bad judgements and then officers get hurt because they didn't properly prepare themselves.


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## Drac (Mar 17, 2008)

punisher73 said:


> When I went through here in Michigan, I went through the local college and took DT. It was a 2 hr class twice a week for the semester. It was based on PPCT although some other areas were added in.


 
In Ohio you have to a week long school held at the State run academy..It's 8 to 9 hrs a day... 



punisher73 said:


> But, for our dept. it is bare bones minimum. I am one of our PPCT instructors and we only train 8 hrs once or twice a year to keep everyone's certification.


 
Yeah, that sounds like us too..They State just handed down a mandate addressing a MANDATORY 8 hrs per year



punisher73 said:


> We try to get it more, but $$$ won't let us.



With me they have NO EXTRA cash needed...I'm there 5 days a week 8 hrs a day...They just won't commit



punisher73 said:


> When training, I always try to emphasize that PPCT or any other MA won't save your butt if you never practice it. You HAVE to practice the moves on your own and make it your own. Also, to understand the when/where/why to apply the stuff.


 
Same here...




punisher73 said:


> I know alot of guys in our dept. bad mouth PPCT and say it doesn't work, and then I review their "use of force" reports, and you have subjects that are in the "active aggressive" stage and they are trying to push on pressure points alone. They don't understand how/when to strike in PPCT and how to use all of the tools available to gain control and protect themselves. I think it is because use of force is so PC that people use TOO LITTLE force than is justified to prevent lawsuits etc. But, all this does is make for bad judgements and then officers get hurt because they didn't properly prepare themselves.


 
Yes its a sad state of affairs..


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## Drac (Mar 17, 2008)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Ouch, yes I imagine that did not go over to well. :erg:


 
No it did not....



terryl965 said:


> I would imagine them not liking you at all if that happens.


 
Yeah, I would be getting any Christmas cards from them..I won't lose any sleep over it..


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## Brian R. VanCise (Mar 17, 2008)

Drac said:


> No it did not....
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I would be getting any Christmas cards from them..I won't lose any sleep over it..


 

You know Drac when I worked in the private sector for a bit and mentioned the same thing the exact opposite happened in that they started freeing up funds for me pronto. :idunno:


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## Drac (Mar 18, 2008)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> You know Drac when I worked in the private sector for a bit and mentioned the same thing the exact opposite happened in that they started freeing up funds for me pronto. :idunno:


 
To quote Yul Brenner in the The King and I,  *" It is a puzzlement"...*


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 25, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> DT... What is it? What are cops taught? What should they be taught?
> 
> Here on MT, most of us are pretty serious martial artists. We voluntarily spend several to many (to way too many, if you ask spouses & friends) hours practicing the intricacies of dealing with a person in hand-to-hand combat.
> 
> ...


 
First, to clear up a point of confusion on yours and many parts, a 'rear naked choke' or as it is referred to under some systems, a Lateral Vascular Neck Restraint, is NOT by any state law i'm aware of, and certainly not in Missouri 'Lethal Force', or force likely to cause death or serious physical injury.....what you are basing your statement on is the fact that some DEPARTMENTS elevate the LVNR and similar versions of the rear naked choke to the level of lethal force.....but that elevation is artificial policy of those departments only.

The LVNR, which is actually the specific name of the Job Functional system taught by Kansas City PD since the early 1970's....as NLETC, the company responsible for LVNR training maintains '*Result: No death, injury or litigation for excessive use of force for 34 years against agencies using the certified Lateral Vascular Neck Restraint (LVNR®) System!' http://www.nletc.com/courses.php?course_id=1*

Having said that, I consider some sort of well researched version of the rear naked choke, hidaka jime, LVNR, whatever you call it, and ESSENTIAL skill for a police officer.  Why?  Because, despite the fantasy fears of many administrators, who have based their understanding of the risks of rear naked chokes on myths, lies and half-truths, it is a safe and HIGHLY effective technique that can be used on the street....in fact one of THE most effective single physical techniques an officer can have in his or her tool box to save his life and regain control of a situation.


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 25, 2008)

kenpotex said:


> The problem with LE DT, as I see it, is that they spend the majority of their time working on techniques designed to restrain the subject with the minimum damage/danger possible (which is a necessary skill, don't get me wrong) and not enough time emphasising officer survival and learning to _fight _(which is a critical skill).
> As a result you have people that are really going to be in trouble if they're dealing with someone that is trying to kill them (like the traffic stop vid in the other thread) as opposed to someone who is just "resisting."
> I've been certified in one DT system (CLAMP) and one of my students is a certified instructor in both CLAMP and PPCT. From seeing material from these systems, I think there is some decent material; however, when you only spend a couple of weeks on the stuff during academy, and maybe 8 hours a year in re-cert, how good are you really gonna be? Of course, the same thing would apply if they were teaching better material...you're only going to be good if you put in the time to practice.
> 
> ...


  I think Larry Lein's Clamp/Grasp are excellent systems, and the Clamp technique, which is really a modified kimura applied for different angles, is an excellent technique in that it is effective and EXTREMELY simple to teach and retain.  Larry and his company are standup people who have done a good job of putting ego aside and trying to develop an excellent product that integrates well with other systems....something I can't say for everyone out there, some of whom have developed egos of the sort that says 'You MUST use my system exclusively, or else we won't support your training'....but those folks will remain nameless. 

FYI Larry Lein has a 40hour DT general course that does a decent job of covering some of the introductory necessary skills required of a new Defensive Tactics instructor....it's all basic instructor stuff, but that's what's needed in a course of that nature.....everything from OC spray, to clamp, to baton, to general use of force case law and documentation.....I highly recommend it.


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 25, 2008)

Archangel M said:


> Whats the general opinion on Blauer's SPEAR system?


 From my experience, Blauer's got a quality program....I think is 'Ballistic Micro-Fights' concept is a good way of building confidence and pushing students and preparing them for some semblance of a real world conflict.


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 25, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> The idea of a separate, police/LE program (not a black belt track program) has been advanced within our association. It's creeping along...
> 
> I think it's something that a lot of agencies should improve. There's nothing (but organizational willpower) preventing an agency from implementing some sort of regular DT refresher; I know of a few that have. But I suspect it won't be done until there's a lawsuit where the lack of training figures into it.



A law suit might change that situation at an agency where the lawsuit is targeted....but it's not likely to change the overall pattern and here's why....

.....Police work is an EVER EXPANDING mess of varied tasks.....every year society adds a whole new laundry list of things police are expected to do, learn, train, log, report, etc....unlike Firemen, who society understood must be left alone to train for and prepare for their PRIMARY responsibility of 'fighting fires and saving lives and property', police are considered societies CATCHALLS for every **** job they can think of!  Oh, and by the way, can you GET all those jobs done without a budget increase or more overtime? Thanks! 

In short, the 40, 50, and 60+ hour WORK week of the average cop is FILLED with a variety of job tasks to complete......there's the job of working the road, conducting investigations, attending in-house training on every thing from DWI enforcement, Homeland security, Sexual harassment, Racial Profiling, Firearms range training, Driving training, computer training, DT training, special assignments, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc........Police Departments are OVERWHELMED and UNDER FUNDED AND STAFFED to fullfil all of the requirements assigned them.

Is Defensive Tactics training VITAL when the crap hits the fan?  ABSOLUTELY!  Is it a priority in THIS WORK WEEK?  Well, not if we're going by the calender agenda.....remind the boss in the fall....if the new budget comes in.


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## Cruentus (Mar 25, 2008)

sgtmac_46 said:


> First, to clear up a point of confusion on yours and many parts, a 'rear naked choke' or as it is referred to under some systems, a Lateral Vascular Neck Restraint, is NOT by any state law i'm aware of, and certainly not in Missouri 'Lethal Force', or force likely to cause death or serious physical injury.....what you are basing your statement on is the fact that some DEPARTMENTS elevate the LVNR and similar versions of the rear naked choke to the level of lethal force.....but that elevation is artificial policy of those departments only.
> 
> The LVNR, which is actually the specific name of the Job Functional system taught by Kansas City PD since the early 1970's....as NLETC, the company responsible for LVNR training maintains '*Result: No death, injury or litigation for excessive use of force for 34 years against agencies using the certified Lateral Vascular Neck Restraint (LVNR®) System!' http://www.nletc.com/courses.php?course_id=1*
> 
> Having said that, I consider some sort of well researched version of the rear naked choke, hidaka jime, LVNR, whatever you call it, and ESSENTIAL skill for a police officer.  Why?  Because, despite the fantasy fears of many administrators, who have based their understanding of the risks of rear naked chokes on myths, lies and half-truths, it is a safe and HIGHLY effective technique that can be used on the street....in fact one of THE most effective single physical techniques an officer can have in his or her tool box to save his life and regain control of a situation.



Just wanted to mention without being able to follow up on this after this post that "choke" holds (or holds around the neck that restrict blood flow or air that could result in unconciousness) are considered lethal force in Michigan last time I checked. Just throwing it out there; this stuff might vary per state...

C.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Mar 25, 2008)

Cruentus said:


> Just wanted to mention without being able to follow up on this after this post that "choke" holds (or holds around the neck that restrict blood flow or air that could result in unconciousness) are considered lethal force in Michigan last time I checked. Just throwing it out there; this stuff might vary per state...
> 
> C.


 
It definately varies per state Cruentus.


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## Drac (Mar 25, 2008)

It seems *NO ONE* want to do any DT training..Father Greek and I holding a *FREE* seminar for LEO's on a Sunday, we will even issue a certificate of attendance so you can have it put in your personal file if your department is big on that kind of stuff..Despite numerous snail mails and e mails we still only got a few..Very sad..


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## Brian R. VanCise (Mar 25, 2008)

Drac said:


> It seems *NO ONE* want to do any DT training..Father Greek and I holding a *FREE* seminar for LEO's on a Sunday, we will even issue a certificate of attendance so you can have it put in your personal file if your department is big on that kind of stuff..Despite numerous snail mails and e mails we still only got a few..Very sad..


 
Sorry to hear that Drac but unfortunately I am not surprised.  I am trying to jump start LEO training up here to and even though several train with me it is challenging.  April is LEO Appreciation month and they can train for free.  It will be interesting to see how many come and partake of the training.


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## jks9199 (Mar 25, 2008)

Cruentus said:


> Just wanted to mention without being able to follow up on this after this post that "choke" holds (or holds around the neck that restrict blood flow or air that could result in unconciousness) are considered lethal force in Michigan last time I checked. Just throwing it out there; this stuff might vary per state...
> 
> C.


The general definition of "lethal force" is force which is reasonably likely to result in serious bodily injury or death.  The rear naked choke, as practiced in most martial arts, definitely qualifies since it involves restricting blood flow to the brain, which, if maintained long enough, will cause death.  There are a few variations that have been marketed to law enforcement under several different names (carotid restraint, lateral vascular compression, etc.), and has the potential to be a very useful technique.  But many agencies will still classify it as a near-lethal or lethal force technique, because it can easily slip into a true respiratory choke is not applied correctly, and because it involves the blood flow to the brain.  You do that with someone whose brain chemistry is already messed up by drugs or alcohol, and you're asking for a law suit.  The folks in risk assessment generally aren't willing to sign off on that as a routine technique...  Hell, many agencies are still placing the Taser and other ECD devices as near-lethal force.

Each working officer should be intimately familiar with their agency's use of force model, and if that officer happens to be a practicing martial artist as well, they should know how to fit their own martial arts training into the use of force model.


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## tellner (Mar 25, 2008)

One thing that just doesn't make sense is the baton.

It doesn't restrain. It can be deadly but isn't a very effective killing tool. Up until the introduction of the snap whip it was frequently left in cars. It's not a good shield. Its best use seems to be as a badge of authority - a vestige of the tipstaff. 

The sap has a bad reputation, but it seems like a better tool from a purely technical perspective. Properly designed and used it can be anything from gentle remonstrance to thermonuclear war. It's compact. It's very effective. And we don't carry warrants rolled up inside pseudo-Roman maces anymore.


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## jks9199 (Mar 25, 2008)

tellner said:


> One thing that just doesn't make sense is the baton.
> 
> It doesn't restrain. It can be deadly but isn't a very effective killing tool. Up until the introduction of the snap whip it was frequently left in cars. It's not a good shield. Its best use seems to be as a badge of authority - a vestige of the tipstaff.
> 
> The sap has a bad reputation, but it seems like a better tool from a purely technical perspective. Properly designed and used it can be anything from gentle remonstrance to thermonuclear war. It's compact. It's very effective. And we don't carry warrants rolled up inside pseudo-Roman maces anymore.


Batons have a number of good uses, including traps and restraint, and crowd control.  They're an effective, less likely to be lethal option in some cases.  They're a way to apply more force than empty hands, or at a distance, without resorting to a firearm.  But they're also a hold over from "the good old days", before the advent of OC, Tasers and other intermediate force options.  I doubt that they'll ever go away completely, but they are not relied upon as much today as they once were.

Many agencies removed the sap from their arsenal because too many skulls got cracked... whether or not they were deserved.


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 25, 2008)

Cruentus said:


> Just wanted to mention without being able to follow up on this after this post that "choke" holds (or holds around the neck that restrict blood flow or air that could result in unconciousness) are considered lethal force in Michigan last time I checked. Just throwing it out there; this stuff might vary per state...
> 
> C.


 By state statute or by department ordinance.....if it's a state statute i'd be very interested in seeing how the legislature wrote that law......if it exists it's an asinine law.


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 25, 2008)

Drac said:


> It seems *NO ONE* want to do any DT training..Father Greek and I holding a *FREE* seminar for LEO's on a Sunday, we will even issue a certificate of attendance so you can have it put in your personal file if your department is big on that kind of stuff..Despite numerous snail mails and e mails we still only got a few..Very sad..


You have to charge something for your training.....if you do it 'free' the thought process is that it's not good training....wrong headed, I know, but most folks equate 'free' with of no value.....but if you charge them something, oddly they start thinking it's worth something.  Weird, I know, but start charging.


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## theletch1 (Mar 25, 2008)

I notice that the PPCT course teaches only two joint locks.  Why just two?  Seems that the ability to lock up an individual without using a baton, OC or voltage would drop a departments liability.  I understand that locks are a bit more difficult to learn than strikes but they can be much more effective than a strike.

Also, I'm curious as to how in-depth the gun disarm training is.


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 25, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> The general definition of "lethal force" is force which is reasonably likely to result in serious bodily injury or death. The rear naked choke, as practiced in most martial arts, definitely qualifies since it involves restricting blood flow to the brain, which, if maintained long enough, will cause death. There are a few variations that have been marketed to law enforcement under several different names (carotid restraint, lateral vascular compression, etc.), and has the potential to be a very useful technique. But many agencies will still classify it as a near-lethal or lethal force technique, because it can easily slip into a true respiratory choke is not applied correctly, and because it involves the blood flow to the brain. You do that with someone whose brain chemistry is already messed up by drugs or alcohol, and you're asking for a law suit. The folks in risk assessment generally aren't willing to sign off on that as a routine technique... Hell, many agencies are still placing the Taser and other ECD devices as near-lethal force.
> 
> Each working officer should be intimately familiar with their agency's use of force model, and if that officer happens to be a practicing martial artist as well, they should know how to fit their own martial arts training into the use of force model.


  Since 99.9999% of folks who have been on the receiving end of a rear-naked choke are still alive, with no permanent, or even temporary, physical disability, that really refutes the theory that it's 'likely to cause death or serious physical injury.

A GUNSHOT wound or a STABBING is 'likely to cause death or serious physical injury' no matter where you get shot or stabbed.....the key is that when used correctly, the LVNR and it's relation are LESS likely to cause death or serious physical injury than many OTHER techniques employed by law enforcement.....perception is NOT reality.

Furthermore, it's important to note that CORRELATION does not equal CAUSATION, that notion is a logical fallacy.....i'm glad you brought up the Taser.....and I should note Pepper Spray, 'Hog Tieing', Baton Strikes and many other uses of force, have one thing in common......over the years they have been pointed to as 'causing deaths'.......and to the same people.......overweight, middle aged men on hyper-stimulants like cocaine and methamphetamines who are od'ing and actively resisting the police.

Now, if a certain number of hyper-stimulant users died years ago having the LVNR used on them, and departments switched to Pepperspray as the primary force used on resisters, and the same percentage of people kept dying, and departments switched to the Taser, and the same percentage of people kept dying......is it logical to assume that it was those three varied uses of force that killed them?  OBVIOUSLY NOT!  The reality is that THOSE people are in medical crisis, they are violent, and unpredictable, and they are VERY LIKELY going to DIE as a result of their hyper-stimulant overdose, not as a result of the force used to prevent them from harming others.

And as for 'risking lawsuits' you risk lawsuits simply by throwing on a uniform and doing your job....and the jackass' in 'Risk assessment' like to make policies that they themselves aren't charged with following!  My deparment INSISTED to our liability company that WE WILL NOT abandon our use of either Batons or the LVNR.....and risk the lives of OFFICERS, so that the city can get a better rate on their INSURANCE!

If you get high or drunk, you do that voluntarily.....and if you do enough cocaine or methamphetamines to kill and ELEPHANT, and therefore 'mess up your brain chemistry' YOU are responsible for your state of mind.....courts years ago concluded that voluntary intoxication is not a defense.....so why are we now trying to use it as a defense for people who assault the public and police proclaiming they should be treated with kid gloves because they might die?


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 25, 2008)

theletch1 said:


> I notice that the PPCT course teaches only two joint locks. Why just two? Seems that the ability to lock up an individual without using a baton, OC or voltage would drop a departments liability. I understand that locks are a bit more difficult to learn than strikes but they can be much more effective than a strike.
> 
> Also, I'm curious as to how in-depth the gun disarm training is.


 I won't comment on my opinion of PPCT.....but I will say that, while joint locks (especially from a standing position) and pressure points have a purpose......they are overated when dealing with intoxicated and drugged and pain resistant individuals......but they do work outstandingly well on cooperative students in a classroom. 

As for gun disarming, that's an interesting area.......more time is spent on gun retention, which is as it should be......gun disarming assumes someone is pointing a gun at you already, and I, while some training is in order, I really think it's unrealistic in many ways.


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 25, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> Batons have a number of good uses, including traps and restraint, and crowd control. They're an effective, less likely to be lethal option in some cases. They're a way to apply more force than empty hands, or at a distance, without resorting to a firearm. But they're also a hold over from "the good old days", before the advent of OC, Tasers and other intermediate force options. I doubt that they'll ever go away completely, but they are not relied upon as much today as they once were.
> 
> Many agencies removed the sap from their arsenal because too many skulls got cracked... whether or not they were deserved.


 Officers striking people in the head is a result of poor and inadequate training.....officers who are under trained tend to feel that the strikes taught them are inadequate, and overreact and start hitting folks in the head.  But you don't take a tool away because some moron uses it wrong....it's like having a wrongful shooting, and taking all the guns.

What needs to be done, and what I do in my department, is have the officers deploy and use their baton in dynamic situations.  In the field I have used my baton exactly ONE TIME for exactly ONE STRIKE against another human being in my 11 year career....but I was glad to have it.  Pepperspray had been ineffective.......but a single strike from a baton that impacted his hip changed his entire orientation and stopped his aggression.

Pepperspray runs out of fluid, or propellant leaks and wind conditions can change everything......Tasers batteries die, electronics malfunction, or the cartridge is defective.......but a baton is a stick!  It's a simple weapon that is HIGHLY reliable.


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## theletch1 (Mar 25, 2008)

sgtmac_46 said:


> I won't comment on my opinion of PPCT.....but I will say that, while joint locks (especially from a standing position) and pressure points have a purpose......they are overated when dealing with intoxicated and drugged and pain resistant individuals......but they do work outstandingly well on cooperative students in a classroom.


A joint lock, if done properly, isn't as much about pain compliance as it is about skeletal locking.  Many are immobilizing techniques that use the leverage of one joint against another to stop movement in a particular direction.  Pain compliance is a great thing against folks that are not, as you say, under the influence of some substance that shuts down pain receptors.  By the same token, though, an individual who isn't feeling the pain of a properly applied lock isn't going to feel much from a strike either. 

I'm not an LEO but do train a few and have become truly interested in the training (or lack thereof) that is being provided to you guys.  I've always said I wouldn't have your job and after talking to many an officer about their lack of solid DT training I'm even more convinced that I couldn't/wouldn't do the job.


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## tellner (Mar 25, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> Batons have a number of good uses, including traps and restraint, and crowd control.  They're an effective, less likely to be lethal option in some cases.  They're a way to apply more force than empty hands, or at a distance, without resorting to a firearm.  But they're also a hold over from "the good old days", before the advent of OC, Tasers and other intermediate force options.  I doubt that they'll ever go away completely, but they are not relied upon as much today as they once were.
> 
> Many agencies removed the sap from their arsenal because too many skulls got cracked... whether or not they were deserved.



Yeah, true 'dat. My arguments with them are fairly technical and at the margins. They're not useless, but I see them as more a vestige and tradition than the mainstay police tool they used to be. The tipstaff was as much a badge of authority as an actual weapon. Most visible pieces of police equipment really are when you stop and think about them. If you go Clothed in the Majesty of the Law most people won't give you serious trouble. If you're a guy with visible and ugly clothes it's a lot more difficult. 

The advent of the PR-24 was the first serious re-examination of their role. They've been declining ever since. I see the ASP as a lot like the cavalry in 1905 - still there, still useful in certain situations, but basically trying to justify its existence in a world which had passed it by. 

Riot batons are a specialized tool for a specialized task. 

Hitting people in the head with heavy objects is always a lethal idea whether it's polycarbonate, steel, cocobolo or leather and lead. One of the things that struck me (so to speak) about the Rodney King incident was the non-conforming use of the PR-24 as practiced by all of the officers who let adrenaline overcome their frontal lobes. I've got Monadnock's manual lying around somewhere from before that particular debacle. On every single page it says "Do NOT strike suspect in the head". Under stress people with clubs revert past early training to genetic imperative. In this case the genetic imperative goes back to wildebeest thigh bones and Australopithecene sensibilities. 

Saps, well, I just like 'em  With good training and proper design they can be finely nuanced tools. Heck, I'd like to see them legal in more places for everyday citizens' self defense. They got a bad reputation mostly undeserved just like automatic knives. Oh, and calling sap gloves "balanced driving gloves" as some officers are now doing doesn't fool anyone :shrug:


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 25, 2008)

theletch1 said:


> A joint lock, if done properly, isn't as much about pain compliance as it is about skeletal locking. Many are immobilizing techniques that use the leverage of one joint against another to stop movement in a particular direction. Pain compliance is a great thing against folks that are not, as you say, under the influence of some substance that shuts down pain receptors. By the same token, though, an individual who isn't feeling the pain of a properly applied lock isn't going to feel much from a strike either.
> 
> I'm not an LEO but do train a few and have become truly interested in the training (or lack thereof) that is being provided to you guys. I've always said I wouldn't have your job and after talking to many an officer about their lack of solid DT training I'm even more convinced that I couldn't/wouldn't do the job.


 My point being that even someone who feels no pain....will still lose conciousness from a properly applied blood choke......joint locks can and do work....but they require precise timing to apply in a dynamic situation versus the static training of a training room.  I think too many officers get a false sense of security by how easily their partner taps to a joint lock or pain compliance technique....and fail to appreciate that in a real altercation it really isn't that simple.

As such, I think Judo/Jui-Jitsu has benefited me the most due, as much as anything else, to randori with a resistant combative opponent. 

But you're correct.....there is very little adequate DT training.....of the training i've received, much of it has been on my own time, and a great deal at my own expense.


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 25, 2008)

tellner said:


> Yeah, true 'dat. My arguments with them are fairly technical and at the margins. They're not useless, but I see them as more a vestige and tradition than the mainstay police tool they used to be. The tipstaff was as much a badge of authority as an actual weapon. Most visible pieces of police equipment really are when you stop and think about them. If you go Clothed in the Majesty of the Law most people won't give you serious trouble. If you're a guy with visible and ugly clothes it's a lot more difficult.
> 
> The advent of the PR-24 was the first serious re-examination of their role. They've been declining ever since. I see the ASP as a lot like the cavalry in 1905 - still there, still useful in certain situations, but basically trying to justify its existence in a world which had passed it by.
> 
> ...


  Actually, I think the 'sabre in 1905' analogy will prove to be incorrect......I suspect the prophesied decline and fall of the 'stick' in police circles will be much like the premature decision to eliminate guns from Jet Fighters under the idea that all this missile technology has made them obsolete......only to find out the HARD WAY that having a fighter armed only with high-tech missiles makes that plane vulnerable in up-close vicious dog fighting.


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## Drac (Mar 25, 2008)

sgtmac_46 said:


> You have to charge something for your training.....if you do it 'free' the thought process is that it's not good training....wrong headed, I know, but most folks equate 'free' with of no value.....but if you charge them something, oddly they start thinking it's worth something. Weird, I know, but start charging.


 
I know full well the law of what free means and normally I do charge..This was a sampler to test the waters so to speak as Father Greek and I are ready to expand our training...Got a lot of interest from the email and post cards send out...


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 25, 2008)

Drac said:


> I know full well the law of what free means and normally I do charge..This was a sampler to test the waters so to speak as Father Greek and I are ready to expand our training...Got a lot of interest from the email and post cards send out...


 Yeah, cops are always interested......right up until the week before, and they decide they can't squeeze it in.


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## Drac (Mar 25, 2008)

sgtmac_46 said:


> Yeah, cops are always interested......right up until the week before, and they decide they can't squeeze it in.


 
Well said and so true...


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## theletch1 (Mar 26, 2008)

sgtmac_46 said:


> Yeah, cops are always interested......right up until the week before, and they decide they can't squeeze it in.


Heh, it ain't just cops.:wink2:  My dojo offers a discount on tuition to LEOs and we've had many come in and stay for 2,3,6 months.  Eventually they mostly just show up less and less seldom.  Any suggestions for keeping them active?  I've had several tell me that techniques they've learned in the dojo have come in handy on the street (doubt the supervisor knows about it) so I don't think it's the curriculum.


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## kailat (Mar 26, 2008)

I can relate to everyones post on here, as i've either experienced it in one form or another.  

  Having been a DT's instructor, and teaching multiple services of LEO, and Correctional Officers, Hospital Personell (phsych ward), and those that work with mentally handicap.   The PPCT course was firstly developed as a quick and effective course to be taught to individuals dealing in environments where high probability of injury or risk of injury to staff and visitors while dealing w/ dangerous or potentially dangerous students, inmates, prisoners, mental patients are kept.  

  Take for instance a medical personel who discards meds to a mentally ill patient and the patient quickly becomes beligerent or violent and the person prescribing meds becomes irrate how is he to react?   PUNCH the offender or patient square in the nose?  Causing more pain or injury?  Most likely the patient being mentally ill may not ever realize he / she is violent threat.  But the staff must learn to deal with these situations in a manner that quickly protects himself and the others around him as well as being able to quickly restrain the patient without the possibility of seriously harming them.   

To be written in a report that "the above offender began to be come aggressive in nature as I was walking into his/her cell to deliver the proper medically prescribed meds.  the patient  quickly became beligernt and began flailing his / her arms and coming close to striking me out of uncontrollalbe urges to do harm I quickly placed the patient in a wrist lock using minimal force and soft empty hand control trying to quickly retain sensible reaction from the premedicated patient.  Upon placing soft empty hand control on said patient he / she quickly became compliant, no further action or force was necessary!"   Or should I say " I just punched the violent offender / patient causing visible injury and harm beaking the patients nose and possible knocking out of teeth, and harming myself by injury to my hand from hard contact to the patients mandible area." 

 So by using the proper guidelines of the PPCT training it is a ligitimate in court documentary piece of evidence that the officer, or staff was properly trained in a FORM of defensive tactical guidelines as set forth by the courts as to keep your *** out of jail yourself.  

So by an officer rights he / she takes on the time to say hmmm, I can train in a system that is violent and when I start becoming violent when dealing w/ subjects that I can defend myself in a milder manner then w/0 instinct cutting someones face apart because thats just how i train.. Alot of officers see that type of training as redundant and over kill for their job.  Htey feel they can just rely on weapons and other forms of force when needed.  In many cases and instances its true...  but I being an officer, and a martial artist.  I think by trainng your gross motor skills you can validate that very moment.  But to each his own.  If your venturing or thinking of venturing into the realm of teaching police officers.  ALl i can say is be prepared to be let down and upset by the lack of serious participation.  Its said 1 in 2,500 or so martial artist make it to Black Belt..  Well I believe the odds of police officers training beyong their recommended hours outside of the Academy and training regimine is even broader.  Like 1 in every 25 or so LEO will train outside their work and its mostly going to be i things like MMA or cage style fighting.  It may be even higher than that.

 Good luck


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 26, 2008)

theletch1 said:


> Heh, it ain't just cops.:wink2: My dojo offers a discount on tuition to LEOs and we've had many come in and stay for 2,3,6 months. Eventually they mostly just show up less and less seldom. Any suggestions for keeping them active? I've had several tell me that techniques they've learned in the dojo have come in handy on the street (doubt the supervisor knows about it) so I don't think it's the curriculum.


  Here's the problem with police work.....shifts change, assignments change and case loads are constantly changing.  They show up for 2, 3, 6 months......then court days start bunching together, their shift changes, they get a promotion or an assignment change, and it becomes very difficult for them to keep up with.....add to that changes in family environment.

The short answer is....I don't have a short answer.  If firemen needed martial arts skills, you'd have plenty of them showing up, because the nature of firefighting and firefighters is that they can pretty much train all the time.....cops have far more demands on their time.


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 26, 2008)

kailat said:


> ALl i can say is be prepared to be let down and upset by the lack of serious participation. Its said 1 in 2,500 or so martial artist make it to Black Belt.. Well I believe the odds of police officers training beyong their recommended hours outside of the Academy and training regimine is even broader. Like 1 in every 25 or so LEO will train outside their work and its mostly going to be i things like MMA or cage style fighting. It may be even higher than that.
> 
> Good luck


 I'd say that's pretty accurate.....the same actually applies with firearms training as well....most cops dust their sidearm off to qualify and leave it in their holster for the next 3 to 6 months until next qualification time.....and then they barely squeak by.

Society believes a myth that every cop is combination martial arts master/firearms expert.....and throw in CSI expert, detective, attorney, social worker, psychologist, etc, etc, etc.....and it's simply not true.  Cops specialize, and most cops view DT and Firearms training as at BEST a necessary pain and at worst a waste of their time.


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## kailat (Mar 26, 2008)

Sgtmac,

  I agree PPCT is not a great source or viable source of self defense for an all out brawl, and it's not meant to be!!

  What people are failing to see in the larger picture, mainly the blinders of it not complete, when in reality PPCT and DT's for the most part is just as complete as any instructor makes it.

  See PPCT is a guideline, a course program that as an LEO or DT's instructor one must follow for procedures of properly handeling a situation to make it sound better on documentation.  Does this mean the PPCT or DT's as taught to be followed to the "T"?    Not necessarily.  If an LEO or CO, or whomever is needed to be trained in DT's has to defend themselves be it non-lethal force, to lethal force the force continum comes to play.

 If im tackled do I start blasting the common peroneal nerve knowing it may or may not work?  Or do I post guard or gain mount etc.. and choke the man out at all cost of saving my life?  Does the situation require you to choke the assailant into complete unconciousness?  Can you roll over your opponent and gain an straight arm bar, w/ a wrist type lock and control the suspect to calm him into submission?  what about the use of pressure points to control and seize your opponent!!  is it 100% effective?  NO!!  Nothing is...But an officer trained in PPCT or DT's that has 0(zero) training ever, has a much better fighting chance than that guy who has nothing not even PPCT DT's training.. A seasoned or skilled MA that has DT/PPCT training also well yes his / her chance of survival is greater!!    But nonetheless the report has to read the same as an officer w/ less experience and thats what PPCT was devised for.   When a judge reads over the report and the proper terminology is from the PPCT infrastructure is written, vs. that of an experienced MA and your using terms like Jump Spinning hook kick, and Spinning Backfist, or " I applied a guninting strike to the inside of the forearm followed up by a series of jik chung choy (chain punches) to the face of the guy"  I mean does this make sense?  Does this mean these cannot be used?  NOT AT ALL, just don't report it if you did happend to use thes techiques.  LOL  just use the PPCT terms and you'll fair much better when the judge and the DA are reading over your report if Empty hand control had to be used!!! If you have to use an intermediate weapon the same applies as well...

 Hope this helps those w/ o  DT's training and are looking to teach LEO's Defensive Tactics.   You must adhere to standard operating procedures.. YOu can't just go teach an officer to break ankles and knees if and when an altercation arises.  You can and are and will be just in as much hot water as the teacher as the officer who uses it!!


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 27, 2008)

kailat said:


> Sgtmac,
> 
> I agree PPCT is not a great source or viable source of self defense for an all out brawl, and it's not meant to be!!
> 
> ...


 
I really don't want to get in a peeing contest over PPCT....and will say only this.....it's not a bad system, but it's marketing is a whole lot better.  I mostly dislike the 'It wasn't invented here' mentality where PPCT pushes the idea to administrators that if it's not PPCT.....it's a lawsuit waiting to happen.  That's all i'm saying on the subject.

There are good techniques and principles taught in PPCT......but the propriety 'It must be PPCT and ONLY PPCT' marketing BS annoys me to no end.  There are a lot of good systems out there....PPCT is one of them......but PPCT is not by far the BEST.....simply the most used.


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 27, 2008)

Speaking of strangles.....the last guy I was forced to use the LVNR on after fighting with him in a ditch later on in court had his attorney question me about the incident......apparently he lost conciousness so fast he thought I must have hit him in the head with my flashlight.  The guys moronic attorney ask me several times if I hit his client in the head with a flashlight, and couldn't believe I calmly replied if I did not.  Apparently he didn't read the report very well because I clearly stated that I applied an LVNR rearnaked choke rendering his client unconcious!  It's double humorous in that the suspect was transported to the hospital for treatment of WRIST injuries he incurred when he fell in to a concrete culvert while fleeing from me....and no where in his complaints to the ambulance personnell or the ER staff did he mention any other injuries or complaints except his WRISTS! 

If I do something on the street, I include it in the report.....if I choked the guy, i'm NOT claiming 'I was applying my PPCT taught mandibular angle and the subject lost conciousness'.....that's all well and good until VIDEO surfaces of you CHOKING the guy.....


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## tellner (Mar 27, 2008)

If the lawyer can't even be trusted to read the report his client should look for different representation


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 27, 2008)

tellner said:


> If the lawyer can't even be trusted to read the report his client should look for different representation


 I know his lawyer.....he's known as the guy who charges the least in the phone book.....and when i saw that this guy was his attorney as I was approaching the witness stand I chuckled inside!


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## Drac (Mar 27, 2008)

sgtmac_46 said:


> I know his lawyer.....he's known as the guy who charges the least in the phone book.....and when i saw that this guy was his attorney as I was approaching the witness stand I chuckled inside!


 
Been there...Its a good feeling....


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## tellner (Mar 28, 2008)

I like it to. It's so much easier to railroad someone if you know he doesn't have a competent lawyer. Those pesky facts and the inconvenient trifle of the law can be dispensed with so we can get on with good Old Fashioned policing. 

:barf:


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 28, 2008)

tellner said:


> I like it to. It's so much easier to railroad someone if you know he doesn't have a competent lawyer. Those pesky facts and the inconvenient trifle of the law can be dispensed with so we can get on with good Old Fashioned policing.
> 
> :barf:


  Railroad?  The FACTS were that this jackass had robbed an old LADIES HOUSE! What, you feel sorry for him because he picked his OWN ATTORNEY and picked the WRONG ONE?  There was no RAILROADING GOING ON! THOSE were the FACTS....his poor choice in ATTORNEYS meant he didn't get the best LIAR TO SPIN THINGS in his favor!  It meant that he was TRIED ON THE FACTS!


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## shesulsa (Mar 28, 2008)

[playnice]G Ketchmark / shesulsa[/playnice]


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 29, 2008)

shesulsa said:


> [playnice]G Ketchmark / shesulsa[/playnice]


 
My apologies...the 'railroading' comment was a bit irritating...i'll drop it at that.


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## Drac (Mar 31, 2008)

Drac said:


> It seems *NO ONE* want to do any DT training..Father Greek and I holding a *FREE* seminar for LEO's on a Sunday, we will even issue a certificate of attendance so you can have it put in your personal file if your department is big on that kind of stuff..Despite numerous snail mails and e mails we still only got a few..Very sad..


 
Follow up...We had 6 people attend, no one from my department could make it despite assurances by a few that they would be there...Of the 6 that showed 4 were DT instructors and 1 had experience with EPAK...All them are STILL active in teaching and learning, one had mucho training in Pen-Jak-Silat..So we spent 2 hrs trading techinques...


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 31, 2008)

Drac said:


> Follow up...We had 6 people attend, no one from my department could make it despite assurances by a few that they would be there...Of the 6 that showed 4 were DT instructors and 1 had experience with EPAK...All them are STILL active in teaching and learning, one had mucho training in Pen-Jak-Silat..So we spent 2 hrs trading techinques...


 6 isn't bad.  Especially if you learned something as well!


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## Drac (Mar 31, 2008)

sgtmac_46 said:


> 6 isn't bad. Especially if you learned something as well!


 
Yep..All that attended learned something and we instructors also took something home as well...All in all not a bad Sunday..


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 31, 2008)

Drac said:


> Yep..All that attended learned something and we instructors also took something home as well...All in all not a bad Sunday..


 DEFINITELY!


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## Drac (Mar 31, 2008)

The State Director of the of the IPDTI who is also a copper suggested we attempt a once a month get together....I wanted to send you a PM but ya gotta make room in your mail box...


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## LawDog (Apr 1, 2008)

sgtmac_46 said:


> he didn't get the best LIAR TO SPIN THINGS in his favor!


The lawyers can "bend the law in their bear hands". And who, disguised as an officer of the court, fights for half truths, re-directs and injustice for all law biding society, I bring you "Super Attorney".
:BSmeter:


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## VegasM4 (Oct 30, 2008)

Archangel M said:


> Whats the general opinion on Blauer's SPEAR system?


 
We've been trained in it by our department in addition to our regular DT's.It's pretty decent.Another tool in the tool box.


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## Drac (Oct 30, 2008)

VegasM4 said:


> We've been trained in it by our department in addition to our regular DT's.It's pretty decent.Another tool in the tool box.


 
Not real crazy about Blauers System but am *REAL IMPRESSED* by the training suit he developed...


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## Drac (Oct 30, 2008)

We tried again to offer an introduction/refresher DT course geared toward female LEO's as I have heard numerous complaints from a few that they don't get enough real training..One instructor cautioned his class to " take it easy" on the ladies..A hell of a think to say to someone who has the same change of getting into an altercation as their male counterparts...No one showed...


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## Archangel M (Oct 30, 2008)

Where we run into issues with DT training is in "how do you "mandate" it"? We are a union shop and some issues arise with the questions of:

1. Can we "force" officers to "roll" (spar, active-resister training)?

2. What are the comp/legal/union issues that will arise if someone is "mandated" to train and they get injured?

3. Other area depts that do the Blauer stuff have reported some high levels of training related injuries, will the leadership approve such training?


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## Drac (Oct 30, 2008)

Archangel M said:


> Where we run into issues with DT training is in "how do you "mandate" it"? We are a union shop and some issues arise with the questions of:
> 
> 1. Can we "force" officers to "roll" (spar, active-resister training)?
> 
> ...


 
1. No one can be forced to train..I had been attempting to get my department to arrange a class for those that WANT training..It doesnt help when certain Supervisors have the I carry a gun and a taser so I don't need any of that stuff or The skill I learned in the academy ( 10-18 years ago) will serve me attitude..I recently gave up...

2. There is NO STATE mandate for defensive tactics training..It is just states updated skills...So they sit us in a class room and bring in some teacher to bore us for 8 hrs..

3. The Instructor has to keep a watchfull eyes on his students and seperate those getting carried away..


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## Archangel M (Oct 30, 2008)

Thats where we have landed too. Then the question arose...if we run a class for "those who want it", and its department sponsored, department administered and ran by dept personnel, and a student gets injured..is it "on the job" in terms of comp and liability? 

So we get the same "classroom approach" and if you want additional training you have to go to the civilian side to get it.


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## Drac (Oct 30, 2008)

Archangel M said:


> Thats where we have landed too. Then the question arose...if we run a class for "those who want it", and its department sponsored, department administered and ran by dept personnel, and a student gets injured..is it "on the job" in terms of comp and liability?


 
One time they brought in a great instructor to give the department an update class..I believe there were 10* OJI's* (On the job injury) claims that came out of that class...



Archangel M said:


> So we get the same "classroom approach" and if you want additional training you have to go to the civilian side to get it.


 
Sucks don't it...


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## Archangel M (Oct 30, 2008)

Sure does.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 30, 2008)

*It is too bad.*  Recently I had Grand Tuhon Tortal up here in Michigan teaching bladed weaponry and defense against the blade.  I tried to involve the local police department's in a periphery manner and made training accessible to them and yes no one showed.  Here was a chance to work out with someone who regularly teaches the Filipino Military and Filipino National Police Force. :idunno:

On the up side one of the current chief of police is interested in doing some training.  We shall see what becomes of it.


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## jks9199 (Oct 30, 2008)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> *It is too bad.*  Recently I had Grand Tuhon Tortal up here in Michigan teaching bladed weaponry and defense against the blade.  I tried to involve the local police department's in a periphery manner and made training accessible to them and yes no one showed.  Here was a chance to work out with someone who regularly teaches the Filipino Military and Filipino National Police Force. :idunno:
> 
> On the up side one of the current chief of police is interested in doing some training.  We shall see what becomes of it.


It may not be anything deliberate or general lack of interest -- but specific lack of interest because Grand Tujon Gage is not a well known or certified instructor here.  Tony Blauer's instructors have his name standing behind them, and the training has been approved by several states (as far as I know) for in-service/official training credit.  Often, without that sort of endorsements, bringing even the best training in becomes a non-starter for the brass...


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 30, 2008)

Oh no doubt you are right on there jsk9199.  However, I bet if I went to most of the police departments around here they would have no idea who Tony Blauer is.  I am sure that is a bet I would win by quite a bit.  Still I imagine we will be doing some local work for the PD's as soon as the election cycle is over.  They do have some interest and I know most of the people in charge personally.  Still there are hurdles to jump through MELOTC, etc. to make it all work.  So only time will tell.


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## Traditionalist (Nov 4, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> The idea of a separate, police/LE program (not a black belt track program) has been advanced within our association. It's creeping along...
> 
> I think it's something that a lot of agencies should improve. There's nothing (but organizational willpower) preventing an agency from implementing some sort of regular DT refresher; I know of a few that have. But I suspect it won't be done until there's a lawsuit where the lack of training figures into it.


 
Look at Japan they did it. Their police are required to go to martial art training. If you want to be an law enforcement person then you will find the time. just like you find time to go to shooting range.


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## Drac (Nov 4, 2008)

Traditionalist said:


> Look at Japan they did it. Their police are required to go to martial art training. If you want to be an law enforcement person then you will find the time. just like you find time to go to shooting range.


 
If they did that here better than 1/2 the officers I am forced to work with would not cops...The F.O.P rep would spend his time handling the numerous greivences that come across his desk, a herculean task to be sure..


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## VegasM4 (Nov 7, 2008)

I know alot of department's lack in training,mine does not.Our Academy is 24 weeks long followed by 19 weeks of field training.Defensive Tactics is extensive in the academy.We get training in boxing,kickboxing,control holds,handgun retention,ground defense,Taser,Baton,pepper spray,weapons defense,LVNR,and more.Recruits are required to pass DT tests prior to graduating the academy.Once on the street we get 2 hrs of DT training every quarter (3 months).Firearms qual is also every 3 months with duty weapon,shotgun and patrol rifle (if certified).Twice a year quals for off duty/backup handguns.Taser training and low lethal (beanbag) shotgun is once a year.We also get AOST (Advanced Officers Skills Training) once a year which includes training in ground defense,building searches,simunitions training,the SPEAR system,etc.


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## kyosa (Nov 7, 2008)

Drac said:


> It seems *NO ONE* want to do any DT training..Father Greek and I holding a *FREE* seminar for LEO's on a Sunday, we will even issue a certificate of attendance so you can have it put in your personal file if your department is big on that kind of stuff..Despite numerous snail mails and e mails we still only got a few..Very sad..


 
One of the problems with DT training with instructors who arent LEO's is weapons retention.  I have seen DT courses taught where over and over again they don't address this in what they are teaching.  That doesnt mean that what they are teaching can't be applied (maybe with a few modifications) but sometimes what they teach can be dangerous.


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## kyosa (Nov 7, 2008)

sgtmac_46 said:


> By state statute or by department ordinance.....if it's a state statute i'd be very interested in seeing how the legislature wrote that law......if it exists it's an asinine law.


 
I have never heard of a state statute making LVNR, rear naked choke or any other form of neck restraint lethal force.  Our dept.  considers these types of force to be lethal force (been arguing about this for years with no success).


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## Traditionalist (Nov 7, 2008)

Drac said:


> If they did that here better than 1/2 the officers I am forced to work with would not cops...The F.O.P rep would spend his time handling the numerous greivences that come across his desk, a herculean task to be sure..


 
that might be a good thing.


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## kyosa (Nov 7, 2008)

sgtmac_46 said:


> I won't comment on my opinion of PPCT.....but I will say that, while joint locks (especially from a standing position) and pressure points have a purpose......they are overated when dealing with intoxicated and drugged and pain resistant individuals......but they do work outstandingly well on cooperative students in a classroom.
> 
> As for gun disarming, that's an interesting area.......more time is spent on gun retention, which is as it should be......gun disarming assumes someone is pointing a gun at you already, and I, while some training is in order, I really think it's unrealistic in many ways.


 
I agree that joint locks work well with persons who feel pain, but are limited in there effectiveness with anyone who is pain resistant unless you are looking at breaking bones and/or dislocating joints-things gotta be bad if you are using this type of force!

As for gun disarms I feel they do deserve some attention.  There is a funny story that I wanted to share that does have meaning for all LEO's and martial artists.  I haven't seen the video but several of my co-workers have.  A Border Patrol officer found himself on the wrong end of a pistol.  He did everything correctly in his disarm-pushed the gun off line and moved his body parts out of the way in case the gun went off, disarmed the gun, struck the guy with the gun for a brachial stun.....then handed the guy the gun back just like he had trained to do over and over again!  He had to disarm the guy a second time.

The FBI did a study of officers shot in the line of duty in the 1970's (most officers used revolvers back then).  Handgun instructors would yell at everyone that they weren't their mothers and the officers were expected to put their brass in pocket.  Guess what happened during the real shoot outs?  You guessed it-the officers took the time to put their brass in their pockets in the middle of the shoot out.

Moral of the story-the way you train is the way you will usually do it when the poop hits the fan.  You want to make your training as realistic as possible from start to finish when practicing.  

Another thing that I haven't seen addressed here is stress innoculation.  In the old days before Tasers and Pepper spray we were stress innoculated early and often in the course of our work, but that first couple of times were real doozies.  If we can get this type of training in the new officers before they hit the streets, and even the old timers, it is hugely beneficial.


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## KenpoTex (Nov 7, 2008)

kyosa said:


> As for gun disarms I feel they do deserve some attention.  There is a funny story that I wanted to share that does have meaning for all LEO's and martial artists.  I haven't seen the video but several of my co-workers have.  A Border Patrol officer found himself on the wrong end of a pistol.  He did everything correctly in his disarm-pushed the gun off line and moved his body parts out of the way in case the gun went off, *disarmed the gun,* struck the guy with the gun for a brachial stun.....*then handed the guy the gun back just like he had trained to do over and over again!  He had to disarm the guy a second time*.


 I know of at least two similar incidents, one in Canada and one in Finland where the officers did the same thing.  The Canadian officer actually was shot when he handed the gun back but still managed to get the gun back.



> The FBI did a study of officers shot in the line of duty in the 1970's (most officers used revolvers back then).  Handgun instructors would yell at everyone that they weren't their mothers and the officers were expected to put their brass in pocket. * Guess what happened during the real shoot outs?  You guessed it-the officers took the time to put their brass in their pockets in the middle of the shoot out*.


Newhall incident in the 70's...right?


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## Drac (Nov 8, 2008)

kyosa said:


> One of the problems with DT training with instructors who arent LEO's is weapons retention. I have seen DT courses taught where over and over again they don't address this in what they are teaching. That doesnt mean that what they are teaching can't be applied (maybe with a few modifications) but sometimes what they teach can be dangerous.


 

Well said...That's why we *REPEAT* to prospective clients that THIS instructor* IS* an LEO...


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## Drac (Nov 8, 2008)

kyosa said:


> IA Border Patrol officer found himself on the wrong end of a pistol. He did everything correctly in his disarm-pushed the gun off line and moved his body parts out of the way in case the gun went off, disarmed the gun, struck the guy with the gun for a brachial stun.....then handed the guy the gun back just like he had trained to do over and over again! He had to disarm the guy a second time.
> 
> The FBI did a study of officers shot in the line of duty in the 1970's (most officers used revolvers back then). Handgun instructors would yell at everyone that they weren't their mothers and the officers were expected to put their brass in pocket. Guess what happened during the real shoot outs? You guessed it-the officers took the time to put their brass in their pockets in the middle of the shoot out.


 
The gun disarm story happened up here too...When the oficer went to hand the gun back the bad guy assumed it was a trap and threw his hands up...We CONSTANTLY stress for the need for EVERYONE that takes his training seriously to purchase a BlueGun and carry it in their training bag...I heard the brass story before, very sad..My department was just as bad..When we transitioned to semi-autos the didn't want the new mags to hit the floor and get all banged up..Thankfully one of our range masters got rid of that stupid act...


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## sgtmac_46 (Nov 9, 2008)

kyosa said:


> I agree that joint locks work well with persons who feel pain, but are limited in there effectiveness with anyone who is pain resistant unless you are looking at breaking bones and/or dislocating joints-things gotta be bad if you are using this type of force!
> 
> As for gun disarms I feel they do deserve some attention.  There is a funny story that I wanted to share that does have meaning for all LEO's and martial artists.  I haven't seen the video but several of my co-workers have.  A Border Patrol officer found himself on the wrong end of a pistol.  He did everything correctly in his disarm-pushed the gun off line and moved his body parts out of the way in case the gun went off, disarmed the gun, struck the guy with the gun for a brachial stun.....then handed the guy the gun back just like he had trained to do over and over again!  He had to disarm the guy a second time.
> 
> ...



Yeah, the Newhall incident changed everything.

As to training for disarms, there are occasions when it can come in handy.........this video certainly supports that reality! 





Though chunking the metal ticket book HARD in to the guys face, while simultaneously making distance and clearing leather might have been the absolute SMARTEST course of action!

'Front sight PRESS, CENTER MASS, CENTER MASS, CENTER MASS!'  Repeat as needed!


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## Drac (Nov 9, 2008)

sgtmac_46 said:


> Though chunking the metal ticket book HARD in to the guys face, while simultaneously making distance and clearing leather might have been the absolute SMARTEST course of action!


 
I heard about that move when I was a rookie, I have never forgotten it..When other officers purchase the plastic cite holders I have kept my metal one..I heard a better story..While the officer is standing there writing the cite ( now-a-days we return to our cruisers) the driver pulls a gun and the officer throws the ticket book up in front of his face..The driver no longer having line of sight doesnt fire and it gives the officer enough time to pull his weapon and move out of range...


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## Drac (Feb 1, 2009)

Here is another head shaker..Master Steve and I recently met a female from a local department that was really interested in training..We told her that we had sent invites to our lady LEO training..Her comment was that their training officer doesn't reconize *ANYONE's* experience save their own..If he doesn't teach it, they don't need it...


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## tellner (Feb 1, 2009)

Drac, that's not just a problem for law enforcement or for defensive tactics. I've seen the same thing in software engineering, medicine and blacksmithing.


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## Drac (Feb 1, 2009)

tellner said:


> Drac, that's not just a problem for law enforcement or for defensive tactics. I've seen the same thing in software engineering, medicine and blacksmithing.


 
I will* NEVER* understand that kind of mentality...


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## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 1, 2009)

That kind of logic is really hard to fathom.


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## Drac (Feb 1, 2009)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> That kind of logic is really hard to fathom.


 
There is another officer I work with that is also a dedicated MA and is a serious Muay Tai fighter..When I suggested that he take over the in house training  program the "stupid-visors" balked saying he wasnt state certified..So if Chuck Norris wanted to teach here you would say No because he isnt certified by the state?? I never got an answer...


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## Archangel M (Feb 1, 2009)

That mindset isnt just limited to DT's in police departments unfortunately. The firearms Duke doesnt want to share power either. Neither does the IT Prince, the public relations Count, or the records department King.


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## jks9199 (Feb 1, 2009)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> That kind of logic is really hard to fathom.


Not really.

Lots of people invest lots of themselves and their self-image in having titles.  This guy is a "DT instructor." He's teaching cops to survive on the the real streets, not silly martial arts stuff or competitions.  He's the guy who teaches bad ases to be bad asses.  If he let someone else in to teach something, they might show him up.  They might show that something he's teaching is wrong.  And there goes his self-image.

(If it sounds like this could be twisted slightly to apply in lots of other martial arts or other endeavors, you're absolutely right.)

I'm going to guess that most of us here come from a different mindset:  We welcome challenges to the established way we do things, because they might be better.  If not -- we've shown that "our" way is better.  And we recognize that sometimes there is no _best_ way, just several different approaches that work for different people.

Then there's the liability boogyman in police DT training.  There are lots of good, solid tactics and techniques that are prohibited because someone misused them, or the administration is simply convinced that they are too dangerous or expose them to too much liability.  Look at the Taser.  The modern Taser is a great tool, but lots of agencies are still not issueing them to the people who need them; they're leaving them in the hands of supervisors or senior officers who are often the last on the scene.  (Please, someone, explain to me the logic behind saying you don't trust a rookie with a less-lethal item like the Taser, but you do with a gun?)  Remember that police policy is set by the top brass; these guys are usually 10 to 20 (or more) years from the street -- and they've been doing different things.  Small agencies ape large agency policies, so this pretty much applies across the board.  (Of course, there are exceptions.)


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## Archangel M (Feb 1, 2009)

jks9199 said:


> Then there's the liability boogyman in police DT training.  There are lots of good, solid tactics and techniques that are prohibited because someone misused them...




Like the rear naked choke..effective and safe if done properly but not allowed here because some BG was killed by a "choke hold" "back in the day"....however, thats not saying that its "off the table" for me if the situation required it.


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## Drac (Feb 1, 2009)

A retired detective buddy of mine works at that agency and had to attend that class...I was told "Drac, if you'd have been there we would have had to sedate you to keep you from beating this guys butt"..This jerk got his state certificate and never did anything to broaden his skills...


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## tellner (Feb 2, 2009)

I'm reminded of a certain Eskrimador and very highly ranked Kajukenbo black belt who was a cop in a certain California city when the PR-24 was all the rage. One of his students was also officers in the same department. He told me what happened one day when the new official instructor came in with his starched white gi 
[*]. After Instructor Y (IY) showed his stuff BB X said something like "That's pretty, but can you make it work?"

At this point IY made a Serious Personal Error. He told the wiry little Pilipino "I see you're still carrying a _baton_" in what seemed to be a derisive tone.

The student immediately started to look for large heavy objects to shelter behind. 

Somehow, with the crushing inevitability of a Greek tragedy after the chorus has warned the king not to show disrespect to Blind Tiresias BB X and IY ended up squaring off in front of everyone. As near as the man's students can reconstruct their teacher started with a witik to the right hand which was blocked (as expected). That was with an upwards cut to the groin which was barely blocked and in turn into the backhand beheading stroke which connected with its own brand of dramatic crushing inevitability.

Or there's the case of "Colonel" Biddle who came up with his own fencing-based brand of knife fighting to teach the Marines in the early days of WWII. It worked fine against his students. But when he tried the traditional "Mine is bigger than yours" against recruits who had grown up in places like Hell's Kitchen it didn't work so well. By "didn't work so well" I mean "He regularly got whipped like he had a tail and stopped using anyone but his hand-picked students for demonstrations."

Take-home message? Don't assume that just because you're getting paid to teach the Huddled Masses to fight you can fight better than they can.

[*]That's one thing I've never understood. If you're doing defensive tactics why ferchrissakes would you wear a gi and have bare feet? Why not wear your uniform and duty gear or at least as close an approximation as you can allowing for safety? You're not going to be taking off your shoes and changing clothes when you have to make this stuff work.


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## Drac (Feb 2, 2009)

tellner said:


> Take-home message? Don't assume that just because you're getting paid to teach the Huddled Masses to fight you can fight better than they can.
> [*]That's one thing I've never understood. If you're doing defensive tactics why ferchrissakes would you wear a gi and have bare feet? Why not wear your uniform and duty gear or at least as close an approximation as you can allowing for safety? You're not going to be taking off your shoes and changing clothes when you have to make this stuff work.


 
Bravo Tellner, well said...I didnt think anyone did that anymore...That was one of the first rules inpressed up me when I first thought about teaching LEO's...Leave the gi at home..


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## jks9199 (Feb 2, 2009)

tellner said:


> [*]That's one thing I've never understood. If you're doing defensive tactics why ferchrissakes would you wear a gi and have bare feet? Why not wear your uniform and duty gear or at least as close an approximation as you can allowing for safety? You're not going to be taking off your shoes and changing clothes when you have to make this stuff work.



That's one thing that will make me pretty much discount someone talking about law enforcement DT...

I'm not saying that everything has to be done in duty gear... but if the training is in martial arts uniforms, it almost always ignores the reality of the gear a cop carries and wears.  Body armor and gun belts do change the way you move, and the gun belt especially adds a whole set of concerns.

Realistic DT recognizes what a cop carries, deals with weapons retention as well as transitions to different weapons, and recognizes that the typical goal of a police use of force is to effect an arrest, not simply stop an attack and escape.  If the instructor isn't paying at least some lip service to these issues -- they ain't really teaching DT.


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## MJS (Feb 2, 2009)

I was at an Arnis Black Belt workout this weekend, and one of my teachers, who was heading the group, got on the subject of Law Enforcement.  He is a Capt. with the Dept. Of Corrections, so he knows quite a few people in the LEO field.  He mentioned a gentleman, who I know as well from training in Kenpo.

Here are a few clips from some of the DT material that Lt. Kevin Dillon has put out.  Looks like some interesting material.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NopoWTjZXc&feature=channel_page

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Rcs4f5FaRE&feature=channel_page

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJi47WJBpHU&feature=channel_page

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3j8skwcxdo&feature=channel_page


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## Bikewr (Feb 4, 2009)

I'll chip in on this, though I can only comment on the local scene.  I have in law enforcement for 40+ years, so I've seen a lot of changes.

When I went through the academy back in 1968, I was rather shocked as to the lack of such training.   We had a fellow from another department come out; he was identified as a "judo black belt".  He showed us some very rudimentary come-alongs, wrist locks, methods for removing a resisting individual from an auto..Stuff like that.  About 2 hours total.
We were not issued a nightstick, but were encouraged to buy one.  There was no instruction.

Most of the guys who were interested in MA sought out local private schools. At the the time, there was not much available locally. You took TKD at the single (and painfully traditional) school, or went to "Tracy's", a sort of pre-McDojo offering up a sort of synthesized Japanese karate with contracts for a black belt...  That sort of place.

I think it was just sort of assumed that if you were interested in police work, you would know how to fight.   There was a fairly heavy interest in boxing, and one of the ranking detectives was a semi-pro who had sparred with some noted heavyweights at the time.

The only other instruction I recall from that department was a short course given by some English bloke on his particular ideas of nightstick use; it was basically a single-technique system.   I was not impressed.

Personally, I had been interested in various MA since childhood, and had a fair background in Japanese karate and various stick-fighting methods.

I left that department in 1979 or so, and took up my present position in "campus" law enforcement.  For the first few years, that same status quo remained.  Then the legal thinking around police "use-of-force" policies started to change, and our new chief at least expressed some interest.  He sent us to an eye-opening seminar on risk management and use-of-force.
The fellow, Randy Means (still providing such training, BTW) explained the current legal thinking and how departments could limit liability with good defensive "tools" and proper training and policy.
http://www.policingwithhonor.com/images/SeminarForm.pdf

As a result of this, we upgraded our weapons, going from revolvers to Glock pistols, and adding ASP batons, pepper spray, and so forth.   
I was sent to the PPCT Instructors certification class.   For those not familiar, PPCT:
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=PPCT&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=PPCT&fp=23tj5qXL0AY
Is a system synthesized by an ex-cop to maximize the officer's ability to control resisting suspects while minimizing liability.   It's pretty decent, relying on simple techniques that can be quickly learned and applied in the field.
This training, and new policies, made me re-think my notions about martial arts and police work.  I had invested a great deal of time and effort in JKD and FMA work, becoming pretty decent with the stick as applied in the Filipino manner.  I realized that in the current legal environment, using these techniques would at least result in disciplinary action (for policy violation) or at worst indicted for "excessive force".

Of course, this only applies to more-or-less standard resisting scenarios; in an all-out fight where you think your life is in danger, anything goes.  Most departmental policies specifically state that.

We had a guy out a few years ago who was supposed to give us an ongoing series of training seminars and also train department members as instructors.  We got two sessions which pretty much mirrored the PPCT training I'd had already.

I would say that for almost my entire career, the departments I've been associated with have been only marginally interested in defensive tactics training, and the main purpose of such training as has been scheduled is to limit liability for the department....


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## Drac (Feb 4, 2009)

Bikewr said:


> I would say that for almost my entire career, the departments I've been associated with have been only marginally interested in defensive tactics training, and the main purpose of such training as has been scheduled is to limit liability for the department....


 
There was a brief renewed interest in hand-to-hand tactics in my dept when 3 of our officers attempted to arrest a career wine-o, and he messed up all 3 of them..It didnt last long as the Tazer was soon introduced and it became the answer for those that had no interest or desire to train...Perhaps the saddest thing I heard from one of these guys was "They shoulda dome that stuff when we were younger..I got got 4 years to I retire so I don't plan of getting into anything serious"..


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## Hudson69 (Feb 18, 2009)

In Colorado the rear naked choke, or whatever you want to call it is considered the use of Deadly Force and is not allowed at my agency.  However along those same lines when I went throught the FBI AC course I was taught that choke as well as a couple of ways to put it into action; during the course it was still mentioned that it was not allowed as well.


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 9, 2009)

A rear naked choke does not qualify as lethal force.....it may in your policy manual, but that's the fault of your administrator........and if it does as a result of your state legislature, then they are morons!

The Kansas City police department has been using the Lateral Vascular Neck Restraint for over 30 years as a control technique.



> Our statistics show that 50% of all subjects will cease resistance at Level One with low-level compression on the sides of the neck; 25% will comply at Level Two with medium compression on the neck; and the other 25% will comply at Level Three or be rendered unconscious in 4 to 7 seconds. *Result: No death, injury or litigation for excessive use of force for 34 years against agencies using the certified Lateral Vascular Neck Restraint (LVNR®) System! http://www.nletc.com/courses_details.php?id=1 *


 Not to mention that tens of thousands of Judoka and Jui-Jitsu practioners in the US have been choking each other out for years without death or serious physical injury.

The bottom line is that, if an administrator doesn't allow their officers to learn neck restraints out of some misplaced sense of liability, he's doing his officers a disservice.  Likewise if he does, and puts it at the same level as lethal force.

A properly applied neck restraint is not any more dangerous than any other low-end use of force.


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## Drac (Mar 9, 2009)

They show us the LVNR in the Instructors and looked for volunteers to experience it..I did..


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## FearlessFreep (Mar 9, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> A rear naked choke does not qualify as lethal force.....it may in your policy manual, but that's the fault of your administrator........and if it does as a result of your state legislature, then they are morons!
> ...
> A properly applied neck restraint is not any more dangerous than any other low-end use of force.



I was talking to my (ex-CSPD) BJJ instructor about this issue last weekend.   Actually the lesson for the day involved chokes. What we (the students) realized was that there are two ways of applying the (rear naked) choke.  One is the carotid choke that cuts off blood to the brain.  The other is the tracheal choke that crushes the trachea. It depends on how you apply the force and is also somewhat contingent on the size/length of the arms versus the size of the others neck.

The reason that the choke is no longer allowed in Colorado is that little term of 'properly applied'.  In the heat of the moment it's easy to slip the proper technique and apparently too many tracheas were being crushed


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## Bikewr (Mar 9, 2009)

As the judoka will attest, the Japanese have always differentiated between the "strangle" applied against the vessels in the neck and the "choke" applied against the trachea.
I understand that the strangle was so well-developed that it could be used to keep an individual semi-conscious while surgery was being performed.

Still taught as part of PPCT, so far as I know.


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 11, 2009)

Bikewr said:


> As the judoka will attest, the Japanese have always differentiated between the "strangle" applied against the vessels in the neck and the "choke" applied against the trachea.
> I understand that the strangle was so well-developed that it could be used to keep an individual semi-conscious while surgery was being performed.
> 
> Still taught as part of PPCT, so far as I know.



One of the strangles is taught in PPCT......they call it the 'Unilateral Vascular Neck Restraint' because it only closes one artery.

It's far less effective that the rear-naked strangle, which is taught as the LVNR, or 'Lateral Vascular Neck Restraint'.


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 11, 2009)

Drac said:


> There is another officer I work with that is also a dedicated MA and is a serious Muay Tai fighter..When I suggested that he take over the in house training  program the "stupid-visors" balked saying he wasnt state certified..So if Chuck Norris wanted to teach here you would say No because he isnt certified by the state?? I never got an answer...


 And yet, some guy or gal who has never been in a fight in their life, never taken a martial art, can attend a 30 or 40 hour training and be considered 'An expert'......yeah, I know the routine.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Mar 11, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> And yet, some guy or gal who has never been in a fight in their life, never taken a martial art, can attend a 30 or 40 hour training and be considered 'An expert'......yeah, I know the routine.



Yes that is the routine.


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 11, 2009)

FearlessFreep said:


> I was talking to my (ex-CSPD) BJJ instructor about this issue last weekend.   Actually the lesson for the day involved chokes. What we (the students) realized was that there are two ways of applying the (rear naked) choke.  One is the carotid choke that cuts off blood to the brain.  The other is the tracheal choke that crushes the trachea. It depends on how you apply the force and is also somewhat contingent on the size/length of the arms versus the size of the others neck.
> 
> The reason that the choke is no longer allowed in Colorado is that little term of 'properly applied'.  In the heat of the moment it's easy to slip the proper technique and apparently too many tracheas were being crushed



That's a training issue.  It's little different than banning batons because an officer might hit someone in the head when aiming for the leg.

The reality is that many 'Rule making' bodies are operating on what they 'heard' from a guy who works at a department who knows a guy who works at another department, who said that this was happening.  If you go to try and track down all these 'crushed tracheas' you'll find a lot of blank looks, and stares.....'well, uhm.....I heard from so and so.......but he's retired now, and might even be dead, so, uhm.....'


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## kyosa (Mar 14, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> One of the strangles is taught in PPCT......they call it the 'Unilateral Vascular Neck Restraint' because it only closes one artery.
> 
> It's far less effective that the rear-naked strangle, which is taught as the LVNR, or 'Lateral Vascular Neck Restraint'.


 
actually it is called the shoulder pin restraint they aren't allowed to call it anything close to vascular or neck restraint because of the copy rite


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## kyosa (Mar 14, 2009)

I just came back from PPCT instructor training and wanted to say thanks to all the guys back in the day who worked hard and discovered and implemented many of the techniques that we take for granted now.  

According to my PPCT instructor back in the 70's and early 80's a lot of officers were disarmed and even had their own guns turned on them.  In Kansas city over an 18 month period 9 officers lost their guns in confrontations and one officer lost his life when his gun was turned on him. Officers didn't know what to do when confronted with situations where someone was trying to take their firearm away from them.  These were techniques not taught in the regular Martial Arts and were developed by LEO for LEO's due to special needs.  So I just wanted to say thanks to those guys who have helped shape, develope, implement and teach many of the techniques that many of us take for granted,


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 15, 2009)

kyosa said:


> actually it is called the shoulder pin restraint they aren't allowed to call it anything close to vascular or neck restraint because of the copy rite


 They must have gotten sued since my last PPCT class about ten years ago....Bruce Siddle used to call it the Unilateral Vascular Neck Restraint.

At any rate, I always considered the shoulder pin a compromise technique that is a poor substitute for the rear naked strangle.  The shoulder pin can be effective, but in my experience if given the option between applying either one, the rear naked strangle is superior in every way.


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 15, 2009)

kyosa said:


> I just came back from PPCT instructor training and wanted to say thanks to all the guys back in the day who worked hard and discovered and implemented many of the techniques that we take for granted now.
> 
> According to my PPCT instructor back in the 70's and early 80's a lot of officers were disarmed and even had their own guns turned on them.  In Kansas city over an 18 month period 9 officers lost their guns in confrontations and one officer lost his life when his gun was turned on him. Officers didn't know what to do when confronted with situations where someone was trying to take their firearm away from them.  These were techniques not taught in the regular Martial Arts and were developed by LEO for LEO's due to special needs.  So I just wanted to say thanks to those guys who have helped shape, develope, implement and teach many of the techniques that many of us take for granted,



The 1970's were a truly rough time to be a cop......if you look at officer's killed in the of duty, you'll see that the worst years in US history were in the 1970's, with the peak being in 1974, with more officers killed in the line of duty than in any other period before or since.

The upside for you and me is, that a lot of learning resulted from the crises' and turmoil of the 1970's.  Much of what we know today is directly linked to the guys who grew up in that period, and fought those battles, and decided to pass the lessons on to the young cops in the 1980's and beyond, so that they might live and do it even better.


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## kyosa (Mar 15, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> They must have gotten sued since my last PPCT class about ten years ago....Bruce Siddle used to call it the Unilateral Vascular Neck Restraint.
> 
> At any rate, I always considered the shoulder pin a compromise technique that is a poor substitute for the rear naked strangle. The shoulder pin can be effective, but in my experience if given the option between applying either one, the rear naked strangle is superior in every way.


 
That is exactly what happened.  And I agree the Lateral Vascular Neck Restraint (LVNR) is far superior to the shoulder pin as a choke.


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## Drac (Apr 7, 2009)

When I reported for duty the other day the Police Explorers were having their meeting, the laison officer showed me their wish list, and at the top of it was " Self Defense" training..

I was asked if I could show them a few things...I showed them a few techniques that could be easily remembered and practiced among themselves and my recommendation for them to train somewhere..

When asked what do I suggest all I  said was " just train" I dont care if its TKD, JKD, etc..etc.. and to NEVER lose the interest in studying...A 4 hr block of training is being set up..If only the adults were as interested...


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## Hudson69 (Apr 8, 2009)

I will have to agree on the amount of time not being enough, but it never is, spent in most of the combat skills of a police officer but my agency meets POST standards here in Colorado and at the same time has developed their own system, taking what they like and do not like, but still meeting the state's requirements in whatever areas there are.

Our DT is speciffic to DT, handcuffing and person searching other skills are learned in different areas.  But I would like to comment that it, based off of my knowledge of traditional martial arts and combative skills learned in the military, is fairly comprehensive.

We have rolls, falls, weapon retention, movement skills (lunge, shuffle, pivot), blocks, parries, ground fighting (very basic, geared toward escaping and getting back to your feet), a wide variety of striking, kicking, locks and nerve strikes.

I would have to say that the system itself is weak in the areas of ground fighting, lack of the use of lots of sparring (liability is what it is to a gold badge), use of different combos and dealing with multiple attackers at the same time.   

We do do in service training once a year and it is a refresher with any up-dates added along the way.  One thing I think we could really use, and other departments might as well, is having a weekly or monthly even training night where officers can get together at the training academy and practice (more often would be better).


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## Archangel M (Apr 8, 2009)

Having some "gold badge" insights into DT training...there are many issues involved in department administered DT programs. Increased injuries are part of the game here, they are bound to happen and their impact on manpower, overtime, lawsuits and workmans compensation can be significant hurdles. Not to mention the slackers that may see an opportunity to visit "Dr. Summeroff". 

Another issue is time available, if you are realistically going to train officers in DT's it has to be more than 1-2 training days a year. Organizing and running a program that provides weekly training runs into signifigant overtime and manpower constraints, not to mention how much that would amplify the injury problem previously mentioned. In this day and age of LE being accused of being "overpaid", convincing the public and politicians that our budget needs a hefty injection of cash to run a DT program is a hard sell.

A local dojo offered FREE floor time for local officers to train (on their own time) and only 2-5 showed. Time available, shift-work, off-duty work and obligations, plain old interest, and the "if Im not getting paid for it..." attitude all factor in.

Not that I think DT's at departmental level ISNT a great idea or that Im against it. But there are valid issues at play.


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## Drac (Apr 9, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> Having some "gold badge" insights into DT training...there are many issues involved in department administered DT programs. Increased injuries are part of the game here, they are bound to happen and their impact on manpower, overtime, lawsuits and workmans compensation can be significant hurdles. Not to mention the slackers that may see an opportunity to visit "Dr. Summeroff".


 
That's true... 



Archangel M said:


> Another issue is time available, if you are realistically going to train officers in DT's it has to be more than 1-2 training days a year. Organizing and running a program that provides weekly training runs into signifigant overtime and manpower constraints, not to mention how much that would amplify the injury problem previously mentioned. In this day and age of LE being accused of being "overpaid", convincing the public and politicians that our budget needs a hefty injection of cash to run a DT program is a hard sell.


 
We had more than enough manpower to do it once a month, there was no interest..My buddy owns a Kajukenbo school and had offered me the use of his dojo, no one was interested...I am on the clock anyway so it does not cost them anything extra



Archangel M said:


> A local dojo offered FREE floor time for local officers to train (on their own time) and only 2-5 showed. Time available, shift-work, off-duty work and obligations, plain old interest, and the "if Im not getting paid for it..." attitude all factor in.


 
No surprize to me..Yeah , it it wont prevent them from bowling, darts or softball....




Archangel M said:


> Not that I think DT's at departmental level ISNT a great idea or that Im against it. But there are valid issues at play.


 
I am still waitin for someone to get hurt and sue, I will be called to the witness stand and then they all go down in flames...


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## Hudson69 (Apr 15, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> Having some "gold badge" insights into DT training...there are many issues involved in department administered DT programs. Increased injuries are part of the game here, they are bound to happen and their impact on manpower, overtime, lawsuits and workmans compensation can be significant hurdles. Not to mention the slackers that may see an opportunity to visit "Dr. Summeroff".
> 
> Another issue is time available, if you are realistically going to train officers in DT's it has to be more than 1-2 training days a year. Organizing and running a program that provides weekly training runs into signifigant overtime and manpower constraints, not to mention how much that would amplify the injury problem previously mentioned. In this day and age of LE being accused of being "overpaid", convincing the public and politicians that our budget needs a hefty injection of cash to run a DT program is a hard sell.
> 
> ...


I understand that the department has to do what it has to do, not meant to be depricating to the gold shields out there.  I just wish that the budget was better, that we could train more often and that the officers took their job to heart a little more and realized that we are the first line of defense without becoming obsessive.... in a perfect world...


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## Drac (Jun 10, 2009)

I can only imagine the weeping, wailing and nashing of teeth if the State made DT qualifications mandatory as they do firearms...


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## Hudson69 (Aug 2, 2010)

punisher73 said:


> When I went through here in Michigan, I went through the local college and took DT. It was a 2 hr class twice a week for the semester. It was based on PPCT although some other areas were added in.
> 
> But, for our dept. it is bare bones minimum. I am one of our PPCT instructors and we only train 8 hrs once or twice a year to keep everyone's certification.
> 
> ...


 
The parts about making the systems moves your own is in line with saying to take the moves you like and make them streetable.  Everything else is something you might want to remember but if you are not going to use them then why allow it/them to take up space on your hard drive :shrug:.

As far as individuals getting hung up on trying one thing, like pressure points, at the wrong time that is from an officer either not having the experience to shift gears, bad or lack of training, over focus (blinders) or a combination of these.

Anyone who is taking up a career as an LEO or Security or the military needs to understand that some jobs might not ever require you use these skills and some a lot of the time in some way shape or form. I think the person most at risk to getting kacked to lousy DT skills is the who only has to use it once, after moving through their career for a long time; and is complacent.

My .02 only


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## Buka (Nov 17, 2017)

Sorry to resurrect such an old thread. But Defensive Tactics never get old.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G82_YHAJnlI&t=4s


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## Brian R. VanCise (Nov 18, 2017)

Now that Otto is funny!


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## Ondrejmatej (Feb 16, 2018)

jks9199 said:


> DT... What is it?  What are cops taught?  What should they be taught?
> 
> Here on MT, most of us are pretty serious martial artists.  We voluntarily spend several to many (to way too many, if you ask spouses & friends) hours practicing the intricacies of dealing with a person in hand-to-hand combat.
> 
> ...




Defense encompasses any and all means of protecting oneself. These techniques based on combination of martial arts, wrestling, and boxing.


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## CoachRonald (Jun 30, 2018)

jks9199 said:


> DT... What is it?  What are cops taught?  What should they be taught?
> 
> Here on MT, most of us are pretty serious martial artists.  We voluntarily spend several to many (to way too many, if you ask spouses & friends) hours practicing the intricacies of dealing with a person in hand-to-hand combat.
> 
> ...



Hi buddy,

I understand this situation you've exposed so that I believe it should be computed as  part of work hours journey at least 6 hours a week of hand to hand training. We can observe daily law eforcement officers totally unprepared to deal with criminal martial artists. In Brazil it's a human right of cops to have their physical training computed as part of their work (1) . Besides it's still only a legal precept, it is not enough. More than physical conditioning and health it's necessary to pursue and develop martial skills.

1- _Estimular a prática regular de exercícios físicos, garantindo a adoção de mecanismos que permitam o cômputo de horas de atividade física como parte da jornada semanal de trabalho.

https://www.google.com.br/url?sa=t&...FjAAegQIBRAB&usg=AOvVaw3eiHvhJvg4OiIDYfrs6lVc
_
Ronald Condé martial arts and combat Sports coach


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