# Hello to everyone



## fighterman (Oct 10, 2011)

Hi Im new to the forum, I live in Italy and practice Wing Tchun Do, I thought I would write to this forum so I can keep my english speaking and writing skills in shape and every now and then post a few topics and vids. all the best. Im off to bed now so Im not sure what time it is in your part of the world. catch ya later


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## yak sao (Oct 10, 2011)

Welcome to the forum.
I've seen a lot of your videos on you tube. I particularly like the old footage of Emin and the ones of you training with Leung Ting.


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## Buka (Oct 10, 2011)

Welcome aboard, my friend.


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## fighterman (Oct 10, 2011)

well it's good to speak english again, so do you guys argue heaps about which wing chun is better like we do in Italy? man it's really heavy over here


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## geezer (Oct 10, 2011)

Hey _Fighterman_, it's great to have another WT "refugee" aboard. There are several guys on this forum who've come from a WT background, either from the EWTO, EBMAS or are, like myself, former students of LT. Anyway, I've long been a fan of your clips on youtube, both for the realism and practicality of your take on WT, and also for your sense of humor. Back when you came out with that take-off on the whole "Wing Revolution" thing, imitating Victor and Sergio, I almost died laughing. As for your English, it's very good. I thought it was your native tongue. I asked a friend about you (a guy who had studied WT in Europe with KK, as well as here with LT) and he said he thought he'd heard that your name was Paul (?) and that you had once lived in Austrailia or something. How about a little background info?

Oh, and for the rest of you guys, check out _Fighterman's_ stuff on Youtube. Here's a sample:


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## wtxs (Oct 10, 2011)

fighterman said:


> well it's good to speak english again, so do you guys argue heaps about which wing chun is better like we do in Italy? man it's really heavy over here



As with others, welcome to the forum.  You will noticed by searching through past posts, there not much about who's lineage is superior.  On occasion we do like to play with the "Mr. know it all".

HEAVY is a term we used back in the old hippie days ...and yes it can denote "a lot of sh$t man", with lots of internet sparing.:slapfight:


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## geezer (Oct 10, 2011)

fighterman said:


> well it's good to speak english again, so do you guys argue heaps about which wing chun is better like we do in Italy? man it's really heavy over here



Yeah, people here argue a lot. It seems like the more similar your background, the worse it gets. My old Si-Hing stuck with LT when I began training with a few "rebels" some years back. Now he won't even talk to me... and we knew each other since 1979! I don't get it. I've got friends in a lot of different groups... and that makes some people mad. Fortunately, the group that hangs out here on Martialtalk is more open minded.


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## fighterman (Oct 10, 2011)

oh ok cool, yeah to answer a few questions, I was born in 65 and my brother and sister are from the 50's so i got really well versed in hippy talk, I didnt know it died out. I started wing in 1973 (I was 8 years old) and yep in Australia, in the Tsui Shun Tin lineage, with Jim Fung and other good instructors like grahem Kerschner. I havent stopped and Ive been training constantly since the 80s, up until then I was training sporadically. I teach, have 2 schools (unfortunately i dont make heaps of Dough) and I bounce several nights a week. Ive been in Italy for about 10 years and I really miss speaking english. So for some reason it never occured to me that via internet I can connest with anybody in the world. so here i am. I have a pretty broad curriculum in training with other styles but ill probably get into that another time. I have developed another system which is called Wing Tchun Do. SDome people think ive imitated Jeet Kune Do but they are two very different realities.
I guess in the future I wouldnt mind having some people checking out some vids and Id be happy to produce them in english. as far as my vids are concerned I usually like to poke fun at egocentric charachters, or abusive thers that abuse their students on film to make themsleves look good. Im fortunate enough to have a few mma and grappling champions next door to me that keeps me in tune with differing realities so it works out being a lot of fun. Yep with Leung Ting i was his private student for a notable period but we had a fall out and Im not one to get involved with political issues or lineage superiority or authenticity.
ok catcha soon


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## stickarts (Oct 10, 2011)

Welcome to MT!


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## fighterman (Oct 11, 2011)

thanks:uhyeah:


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## Domino (Oct 12, 2011)

Welcome Fighterman !


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## naneek (Oct 12, 2011)

welcome to the forum fighterman cant wait to learn more about you!


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## fighterman (Oct 12, 2011)

naneek said:


> welcome to the forum fighterman cant wait to learn more about you!


ask away


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## geezer (Oct 12, 2011)

fighterman said:


> ask away



OK, I've got a few questions about different approaches to Wing Chun that you'd be especially qualified to answer since you've trained in a couple of lineages and have worked with a lot of well known people.  For openers, what's the main difference in approach between your _Wing Tchun Do_ and the WT of the EWTO, and also the way LT's guys in Hong Kong train?


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## WTchap (Oct 13, 2011)

Hi Fighterman/Hi all,

I am also new to the forum, but a WT student (recently started). I'm from the UK, but live in Budapest, Hungary now. So I study WT under Maday Norbert's leg of the WT organization. Before that, I trained some Xingyi and before that (when in England) I trained Wing Chun with Kevin Chan's Kamon organization (for a few years).

I too would love to hear about Fighterman's time learning in HK, and his experiences in WT in Europe.

Anyways, that's my short little intro.


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## fighterman (Oct 13, 2011)

wel Ill answer in part because Ive gotta run off. firstly their is a big difference in the way they train in china compared to europe. but i cab cover that in more detail next time i login. wing tchun do is formulated by an indepth research on the nucleaus of chisao. chisao althought divided into many programs gives a (in my opinion) a false sense of security, what do i mean? more sections you do moree problems you're going to cover on the street... to me this is all ******** (is ******** allowed? or if not I'll refrain in future) chisao for me is a study of body mecchanics and i mean studying the nature of the bodies muscular and vertebraic movement from head to foot. the body works the same for everybody and the mecchanics to create power is the same for everyone. the only thing that changes is the body positions or stances, one may say to me that the wing chun punch predominantly comes from elbow force but are we sure? theres a whole lot of information missing here. people say that chisao is a spontaneous rection but are we sure? prove it to me. people say that chisao creates involuntary and passive reflexes, again, are we sure? I still have to see a person in a real real fight prove it to me.
now dont get me wrong it is possible but one needs to really understand what passive active actions mean and what or if they are different one to the other.
what is wing tchun do? I can prove without a doubt that I can nuse wing chun and chisao principles form any stance any angle any fighting stance and almost (almost) any style. that is my research and I am having great results. I can teach this to beginners and next month I am teaching wing tchun do concepts to a couple of mma fighters. I will say that I have a weakness, and that is ground fighting. i have a good friend who helps me out and I have developed much work to avoid going to the ground. we have a game contest format in which we do chi sao pushing hands and it proves to be a great stabilizer for the work we do. well thats about it in brief. catch ya later


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## yak sao (Oct 13, 2011)

I agree. So much of WT is a study in biomechanics. The forms, the footwork, the punching, the chi sau.

The beauty of the chi sau sections to me is they get you out of your comfort zone, and you are forced to learn how to deliver power and dissolve power from positions you may not have been placed in left, to your own devices.
Without the sections to serve as a template, I know I for one, would tend to stay with my tried and true "techniques".


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## yak sao (Oct 13, 2011)

Hi WTchap from a fellow WT'er in USA....look forward to reading your posts.


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## geezer (Oct 13, 2011)

fighterman said:


> wel Ill answer in part because Ive gotta run off. firstly their is a big difference in the way they train in china compared to europe. but i cab cover that in more detail next time i login. wing tchun do is formulated by an indepth research on the nucleaus of chisao. chisao althought divided into many programs gives a (in my opinion) a false sense of security, what do i mean? more sections you do moree problems you're going to cover on the street... to me this is all ******** (is ******** allowed? or if not I'll refrain in future) chisao for me is a study of body mecchanics and i mean studying the nature of the bodies muscular and vertebraic movement from head to foot.



Apparently the word you used was _not_ allowed! Suitable substitutes might include _bull-pucky, bovine excrement_, _manure_ or even _"fertilizer". _Whatever, I get your point. My problem is that I can never keep straight so many sections or "programs" of chi-sau in my head.... too much memorization. Maybe it would be different if I had a dozen high level training partners and nothing else to do but practice all day. But as it is, I'd rather approach chi-sau as "learning a way to move" that I can apply freely, even under pressure. I think that's what you are getting at when you talk about body mechanics?


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## fighterman (Oct 13, 2011)

geezer said:


> Apparently the word you used was _not_ allowed! Suitable substitutes might include _bull-pucky, bovine excrement_, _manure_ or even _"fertilizer". _Whatever, I get your point. My problem is that I can never keep straight so many sections or "programs" of chi-sau in my head.... too much memorization. Maybe it would be different if I had a dozen high level training partners and nothing else to do but practice all day. But as it is, I'd rather approach chi-sau as "learning a way to move" that I can apply freely, even under pressure. I think that's what you are getting at when you talk about body mechanics?



well firstly thanks for the welcome from the other members.
to answer you I'll put it to you in a simpler term. Im fundamentally and radically traditional in my approach for me the traditional warriors approach is the fastest way to learn wing tsun. now I respect everyone opinion coz theres always something to learn. but if you look at wing chun or tsun in a simple way your life gets easier, I know all the sections off by heart but years back I let them all go and took up body mecchanics, as I said I studied some internal systems and also some other people experts in the field and I managed to put certain work patterns in my body. ok what am i ramblin on about? fighting, chisao and the indepth look at body mecchanics have to absolutely reflect the same course of study, even all the forms (siu nim tao, etc etc) are all the same for me conceptually and are a method to improve my combat, therefore chisao is for combat, understanding body mecchanics is for combat and everything you do has to reflect each other or else you are wasting time. even combat fighting principles, power principles have to truly reflect what you are doing physically or else nothing amalgamates and you are left with confusion.
so ask yourself as I did a long time ago, when I attack and I mean really attack, think of the power and agression and dynamic tension you use when you want to put somebody down... now be honest with yourself, if someone contrasts you can you 'chisao' him at the moment of impact? when he collides with your force, and Im talking about one angry m...... that really wants to hurt you?
now if your answer was no you cant reproduce the miraculous chisao then you are going to find that all the sections in the world is never going to help you. i look at body mecchanics first then chisao sections after...my attack has to follow every principle in very few moves in my attack i have to harness all the nucleus that represents wing tsun to make it effective.
hmmmm hope I wasnt confusing


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## wingc (Oct 14, 2011)

Greetings and welcome to MT's forum from me!!


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## WTchap (Oct 14, 2011)

For me the chi sao sections were one of the biggest attractions to WT. I understand how, and why, they need to be abandoned (or perhaps the better way of phrasing it is how you should 'step outside of them') once you have them, and this type of logical progression was something missing in my previous Wing Chun experience.

And I like very much Fighterman's explanation of reverting everything (forms, chi sao, lat sao, etc) back to body mechanics first and foremost. Regarding Fighterman's Youtube clips, when I see the Lat Sao it reminds of some Lat Sao clips from Chris Collins' (someone who also studied with LT in HK). Perhaps there is a flavour that comes from HK :ultracool

Fighterman also mentioned having studied some internal arts - does anyone else here have WC/WT and internal art experience? My short time with Xingyi was a real eye-opener with regards my Wing Tsun.


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## geezer (Oct 14, 2011)

WTchap said:


> Fighterman also mentioned having studied some internal arts - does anyone else here have WC/WT and internal art experience? My short time with Xingyi was a real eye-opener with regards my Wing Tsun.



Could you elaborate a bit on that? I've never trained Xingyi, but I've seen what look like some similarities in body mechanics and power generation, in beng quan for example. "Internalists" have told me that what they do is completely different, and that I misperceive the true nature of _nei jia_... but then they may have some misconceptions about the nature of WC as well.


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## wtxs (Oct 14, 2011)

Fighterman, you are correct, there is no mystery to WC or any other martial arts.  How good you are depends on how well you know and effectively you employ your body.  Lots of people got hung up on what it should look like.

Just look at the title of WSL's training video ... "The Science Of In-fighting", I think it sez it all.


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## fighterman (Oct 14, 2011)

yep thanks for the comments, you know theres a saying in italy that goes something like 'everything you do is seen as an internal or possibly a spiritual event. so i guess maybe it depends on your outlook refelcts on what is termed as internal. one thing for sure was the fact that when i reanalysed the forms it taught me much about the nature of gravity and how when we do chisao we tend to depend on the pressure of the other person. this unfortunately leads to a false sense of security and completely puts us out of touch with our centre of graviyt. problem is that many become so accustomed to this type of training that in the end they dont even realise they are doing it. the forms is a way of rebuilding your internal structure and also dealing with mentally creating the so called 'passive' techniques without the input of an opponent. this is really hard work because in order to build what we call passive muscles, it takes a great deal of relaxation, mental concentration and in the end rebuilding a new type of force. which in Italy we call 'antigravitational muscles' and 'antigravitational bone structure' its not so science fiction as it sounds but it does take a while to explain it.
umm chris collins, you know I never actually met him but I know of him. i think my biggest influence was my father. he played and coached A grade soiccer all his life and one of the things he taught me was that no matter how hard you trained in any sport or art in this matter. it was always important to play the game.
ciao guys,
Im starting to get accusotmed in writing english. before I go and if the moderators let me I wanted to share with you people an article I wrote. (I like writing articles) on female aggression and what steps to take. I'll probably start a new thread. i appreciate very much your welcomes and making me feel at ease.


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## WTchap (Oct 15, 2011)

geezer said:


> Could you elaborate a bit on that? I've never trained Xingyi, but I've seen what look like some similarities in body mechanics and power generation, in beng quan for example. "Internalists" have told me that what they do is completely different, and that I misperceive the true nature of _nei jia_... but then they may have some misconceptions about the nature of WC as well.





Hi Geezer,


Well, for me the Xingyi training was interesting for a few reasons, but of course all of what follows is just my opinion only ;-)




When I first started Wing Chun back in 2001, I figured it must be more internal than external due to the softness. And all the internal practitioners I met and spoke to said, No, your art is very cool, but not internal.


So I figured they were correct as they knew more about their arts than I did. Then when I started training some Xingyi the things that made that art internal (in my opinion) were often things found in WC/WT or where similar to WC/WT, so now Ive swung back to thinking of WC/WT as more internal than external. 


Firstly, I should say that when I think about internal arts I dont, in my definition, think about chi. Energy does of course make all movements possible, but Ive yet to see (for example) someone show me how sinking chi to the dantien adds more power to their strikes, or how circulating their chi aids in the martial aspects of their arts. Of course, the situation isnt helped by it being impossible to show any movement chi at all.  


But I have been struck by internal practitioners who were able to generate great hitting power with seemingly relaxed and very small movements. How do they do it? I think that the way this force is generated is, perhaps as Fighterman is saying, via great body mechanics.


For example, in Xingyi the power comes from: co-ordinated stepping and full body integration of movements, the use of opposing forces (a part of the body moves forward while another part balances this by moving back, or by hitting upwards while another part of your body moves downwards), opening and closing movements (scapula, for example), compressing and expanding (the ribcage, for example), working with the bodys center via those opposing forces (sinking down into the stance while pressing up with the body), using the mind/intent/focus to aid in some of the things I just wrote, using spiraling movements (they look linear to the eye, but when you look - or feel - they have tight spirals that make use of the joints and connective tissues - ligaments, tendons), using very relaxed movements that take advantage of most of the above.


Xingyi is kinda sneaky, you know. At first glance you can't see these things, often if you look closely and know what to look for you still cant see them. But if your instructor lets you put your hand on his arms, shoulders, ribcage, etc, during his movements, you can feel what is going on - and it is complicated!


Good WC/WT, in my opinion, has much of the above. It is just done in a slightly different way to Xingyi (which itself does things in a slightly different way to Taiji and Bagua). 


For example, Xingyis Santi stance is core to the art and core to all movement in the art. Santi is different to WC/WTs YGKYM stance, but what is being worked in the stance is pretty much the same. The same applies, in my opinion, to elbow power. Trained a little differently, but still training the same thing. 


The best description I ever head of Xingyi was this: Imagine a man standing in a strong stance. You run into him with a punch as hard as you can. It will hurt him and he might lose his balance and fall. Now imagine the same man stepping out of his stance at just the point where his balance is at its weakest - at that moment the man gets hit by a car. The car is Xingyi.


This doesnt mean that Xingyi only strikes when the opponent is potentially about to fall over, but it does mean (I think), that Xingyi likes to strike with great force when the opponents structure has been weaken, his balance affected. 


WC/WT, it seems to me, is also about breaking structure in this way.


All, of course, just my opinion and I am sure I could be wrong.


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## shaolin_al (Oct 23, 2011)

Sifu Geezer after learning some wing chun from you I went back and tried internal again. I find similarities between xing yi and wing chun definitely. The turning in the styles is the same, the stance is similar, and many of the 2 person drills are almost the same as well. Xing yi tends to use the Phoenix eye fist and twists it chambered over the other arm before u strike with it. The fighting stance is also the same or similar between the styles. Basically I realized wing chun has all the good same internal aspects that the internal arts i've done have.


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## KamonGuy2 (Dec 1, 2011)

WTchap said:


> Hi Fighterman/Hi all,
> 
> I am also new to the forum, but a WT student (recently started). I'm from the UK, but live in Budapest, Hungary now. So I study WT under Maday Norbert's leg of the WT organization. Before that, I trained some Xingyi and before that (when in England) I trained Wing Chun with Kevin Chan's Kamon organization (for a few years).
> 
> ...


Your name wouldnt be Duncan would it?


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## WCman1976 (Dec 29, 2011)

I'm too new to the board to know if there has been any lineage fighting, but there doesn't seem to be from the threads I have browsed. It's really sad when things like that happen because, unless someone is teaching something absolutely ridiculous and ineffective, we can ALL learn from each other. As for me, I study under Sifu Russell Cichon in Albany, NY, who has been accepted as a student under Yip Ching. I've met Yip Ching a few times when he came to our school for a couple seminars, and he was a very pleasant man. I don't know what more to say when I'm talking about the son of a man who taught Bruce Lee. LOL

Anyway, welcome to the board.


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## Domino (Jan 4, 2012)

I like how you say this, in chi sau it helps with a certain type of situation but this is not always the case.
Been training with a street brawler who loves to throw, like how you describe 'real real' fighting as you put it and agree in the heat of a real fight some things just don't work or help, timing and range can change far too fast etc.


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## fighterman (Jan 4, 2012)

well ur pretty lucky to be direct under Sifu Maday,
ur one of the few that learns more closer to the Ting version than the KK


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## WingChunBear (Mar 6, 2012)

Good Day everyone, I am new to this forum as well, hope you all can show me the ropes on the sorts of discussion to have in regards to Wing Chun.
Infact does anyone know how i can put a signature below my post?

Cheers!


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## Domino (Mar 6, 2012)

Welcome,
Start your own thread in future if you can but you can change signature by clicking to the top right for 'settings', 'signature' is on the left hand column.


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