# A odd thing said in Olympic commentary



## IcemanSK (Aug 20, 2008)

I was up late watching the 1st night of TKD, & watching the commentary written on the screen. The guy writting the commentary said he was one of the Olympic assistant coaches. I didn't catch his name. He answered questions folks wrote in via email address. One answer I thought was odd.

An email asked about keeping their hands down. He responded, "for my lower rank students, I teach them to keep their hands up. For this level of competition, they should know how to protect their heads by now."

Given the fact that nearly every attempted head kick I've seen in several hours of watching has either scored or should have (meaning no block or head movement was attempted), I find this waaay off the mark in terms of what is happening &/or trained for.

Anyone agree with him? Can anyone shed light on his thought process on that?


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## MBuzzy (Aug 20, 2008)

I know of a few competitors who keep their hands down intentionally, trying to invite a strike to the head, relying on speed to block and going for the counter created by their movement for a head strike.  Whether this is effective or reliable or not....well, that's up to opinion, but I'm definately not good enough to rely on it.  Particularly at that level of competition.


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## thardey (Aug 20, 2008)

IcemanSK said:


> I was up late watching the 1st night of TKD, & watching the commentary written on the screen. The guy writting the commentary said he was one of the Olympic assistant coaches. I didn't catch his name. He answered questions folks wrote in via email address. One answer I thought was odd.
> 
> An email asked about keeping their hands down. He responded, "for my lower rank students, I teach them to keep their hands up. For this level of competition, they should know how to protect their heads by now."
> 
> ...



I don't do TKD specifically, but I often fight with one hand down. It depends on my attack strategy. If I'm facing the opponent directly (sort of a boxer stance) I keep both hands high, and slightly to the outside, with my elbows down to cover my body. This makes a good "blitz" stance. 

If I'm in a more defensive mood, I'll use a relaxed side stance, and let my front hand drop to cover the otherwise inviting body shots, and the rear hand comes around to cover the inside of my body, and my head. I actually have much more success with that as a defensive posture. Once you turn into a side-stance, keeping both hands high is impractical and awkward. However, your body position more than makes up for it.


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## mango.man (Aug 20, 2008)

I believe that Sherman Nelson was providing the commentary:  http://www.usa-taekwondo.us/624_1967.htm

My philosophy on hands up or down is that the huge majority of points are scored on shots to the body so keep your hands down to be better off blocking those and hope you can get them up fast enough to block the rare head shot.

Most of the head kicks that I saw last night and this morning (I only watched the girls because well I am the dad of a girl with Olympic aspirations) were axe kicks or attempts at axe kicks to the face.  Hands up might be good to defend roundhouse type kicks that come from the side.  But axe kicks up the middle are not so easily "blocked" even if your hands are up.  Best bet is to evade or accept the fact you are about to get nailed and try a counter roundhouse to the body and hope to get at a point yourself out of the exchange.

That is my take and that is the way this game is played.  And all these people complaining about keeping your hands up or how is this useful in self defense and all of that garbage need to understand the Olympic TKD is a game and only a game.  Deal with it.  If you think you can do better by keeping your hands up, go get yourself a Kukkiwon cert and make it into the 2012 games.  I can pretty much promise you though that you won't make it to the 2012 games because if you go into every fight building up to Olympic qualification events you will lose far more fights than you will win if your only objective is to protect your head.


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## Laurentkd (Aug 20, 2008)

IcemanSK said:


> I was up late watching the 1st night of TKD, & watching the commentary written on the screen. The guy writting the commentary said he was one of the Olympic assistant coaches. I didn't catch his name. He answered questions folks wrote in via email address. One answer I thought was odd.
> 
> An email asked about keeping their hands down. He responded, "for my lower rank students, I teach them to keep their hands up. For this level of competition, they should know how to protect their heads by now."
> 
> ...


 


You make a good point. I tend to spar with my hands down most of the time, but when sparring my instructor I keep them up because I know he can hit my head. You would think that once an athlete took a head shot he would then keep his hands higher. But, I know that one thought behind keeping the hands low is that it tends to be a natural block for a roundhouse kick to the body. I think it would be better for the sport if we sparred with our hands up, but until hand strikes to the head are allowed that probably won't happen.

On a highjack note.... did anyone think Charlotte's last second face strike should have counted and thus won her the match?


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## Mimir (Aug 20, 2008)

My wife and I were watching the matches last night and we were both perplexed by the hands down approach.  We have always been taught to keep our hands up.

One of the other things that we noticed was little to no blocking


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## mango.man (Aug 20, 2008)

At the world class level of this game, blocking is generally discouraged because a block will often still be interpreted as a point for your opponent.  Too many judges, even at the Olympic level, score too often based on the sound they hear rather than the strike they see.

You are generally better off counter-kicking through your opponent's atttack (counters score more than offensive kicks) or shutting down your opponent by clinching when they kick.  For your only defensive move to be a block and only a block, you are certainly doomed.

Regarding Charlotte's last fight:

Well I will tell you this, and this is coming from the father of a girl who has fought Charlotte several times and we see her all over the place and we have the greatest respect for her.

She came out for her first fight and was completely focused and had the look in her eye that we have seen dozens of times over the years.

I don't know if Jean told her anything about relaxing or anything like that, but when she came out for her second fight (I am talking when they came out of the tunnel, not stepped onto the mat) she was smiling and waving up into the stands and so forth.  She just didn't have that same determined look.  When she step on the mat she did, but leading up to that point she just didn't look into it for the 2nd fight.

The 3rd round of her 2nd fight was by far her best, but by then she was pretty well done for.  Once you give up that first point at this level, it is very difficult to dig out.

She is a great competitor and represented the USA well though and at only 17 I am sure she will be in the 2012 games.


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## IcemanSK (Aug 20, 2008)

I'm really not trying to start or add to the ongoing debate about whether or not one should have their hands down in Olympic-style sparring....just this guy's reasoning for it. To say that "at this level, they should know how to protect your head" seems like a silly thing to say. If these world-class athletes (& I don't dispute that they are) are trained to be so fast as to see a head kick coming & get out of the way, then truly 98% of these folks were absent on the days they practiced avoiding head shots.

It seems to be me that "how to block or get out of the way of a head kick" isn't part of the regiment in their training. But certainly to say, "they should be able to figure it out at this level" seems an even sillier thing to say.


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## Andrew Green (Aug 20, 2008)

I can't really figure it out either, but I don't watch a lot of TKD, or really know all of the rules.

However, given that all of the competitors at that level do it there must be something about doing so that is beneficial as opposed to hands up at that level and under those rules.

"Keep your hands up" is not a great insight that somehow has passed the best people in the world by, yet is common wisdom amongst all of the lower levels.  If it would help them, they would do it, or their opponents would and they would get beat.


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## IcemanSK (Aug 20, 2008)

The more I watch, I think it was just a bad choice or words on this commentator's part. I can't imagine someone who claims to be an assistant coach (& school owner) meaning to say what he said.


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## Mimir (Aug 20, 2008)

I am the first to admit that I know next to nothing about sparring at that level.  I haven't even watched olympic style matches all that much.  I have to say it is very different from the break for points style that I am used to doing and watching.


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## Tez3 (Aug 21, 2008)

Mimir said:


> I am the first to admit that I know next to nothing about sparring at that level. I haven't even watched olympic style matches all that much. I have to say it is very different from the break for points style that I am used to doing and watching.


 
Thats the same for me. I have to ask though ....why no punching? We were watching it at work and my colleagues were basically laughing at the TKD saying it's nothing more than a kicking competition. It was more like gymnastics than fighting. All I could say is that I don't do TKD and don't know the rules for the Olympic stuff but I have to admit it made me squirm a bit as I couldn't defend it as a martial art.
It's nothing like even point fighting in karate let along a martial art you can use to defend yourself with. My colleagues are either military or ex military btw so aren't easily impressed by even MMA.


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## bluekey88 (Aug 21, 2008)

Sadly, the reason for no punching is that despite a punch to the body "that cuases trembling shock" being worht a point...judges simply don't score punches.  In effect, punches don't score.  Perhaps in the future with the electronic hogus coming in we'll see more punches scored...right now, at best they are a defensive strategy to set up kicks.  At the highest levels, even that strategy is ineffective.

It was said earlier in the thread...train to do it all, then dumb it down to work within the rules.  That's what I do.

Peace,
Erik


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 21, 2008)

bluekey88 said:


> Sadly, the reason for no punching is that despite a punch to the body "that cuases trembling shock" being worht a point...judges simply don't score punches.  In effect, punches don't score.  Perhaps in the future with the electronic hogus coming in we'll see more punches scored...right now, at best they are a defensive strategy to set up kicks.  At the highest levels, even that strategy is ineffective.
> 
> It was said earlier in the thread...train to do it all, then dumb it down to work within the rules.  That's what I do.
> 
> ...



Nothing wrong with that.  The hands being down have just evolved as the sport has evolved into a predominantly kicking sport.  Literally Olympic Tae Kwon Do people are simply some of the most fantastic kicking people on the planet.  However that is their specialty and outside of that they may not be so well rounded.  Yet that does depend on each individual.

Also not all Tae Kwon Do is Olympic Tae Kwon Do.  There is a drastic difference between the differnt Tae Kwon Do systems out there.  Such as ITF (old schol) and the WTF. (modern Olympic TKD)


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## Tez3 (Aug 21, 2008)

For the London Olympics we will be bringing an old English sport in as alternative to the TKD.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/gloucestershire/4605157.stm


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## Laurentkd (Aug 21, 2008)

bluekey88 said:


> Sadly, the reason for no punching is that despite a punch to the body "that cuases trembling shock" being worht a point...judges simply don't score punches. In effect, punches don't score. Perhaps in the future with the electronic hogus coming in we'll see more punches scored...right now, at best they are a defensive strategy to set up kicks. At the highest levels, even that strategy is ineffective.
> 
> It was said earlier in the thread...train to do it all, then dumb it down to work within the rules. That's what I do.
> 
> ...


 
I was suprised they didn't use electronic hogus at the Olympics... have they just not proved effective enough yet?



Brian R. VanCise said:


> Nothing wrong with that. The hands being down have just evolved as the sport has evolved into a predominantly kicking sport. Literally Olympic Tae Kwon Do people are simply some of the most fantastic kicking people on the planet. However that is their specialty and outside of that they may not be so well rounded. *Yet that does depend on each individual.*
> 
> Also not all Tae Kwon Do is Olympic Tae Kwon Do. There is a drastic difference between the differnt Tae Kwon Do systems out there. *Such as ITF (old schol) and the WTF. (modern Olympic TKD)*


 
And just as it depends on the inidividual, it depends on the individual school as well. You will find many WTF schools that consider themselves "old school"... you just have to look around a little.


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## bluekey88 (Aug 21, 2008)

I'm not exactly an insider.  I saw the new hogus on display at nationals.  There has also been at least one tournament that they were used in...however I don't think all the kinks are worked out yet.  Certainly not by IOC standards.  

I suspect there'll be more of a push at national and world level tournaments and we will see them in 2012.  

Peace,
Erik


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## mango.man (Aug 21, 2008)

From what I have seen of the demos of the e-hogu thus far, I have not been impressed.

If anyone out there wants to experience them first hand though, the Rocky Mtn Open, being held at the OTC in Colo Spgs in Decmeber will be using them.

From the registration packet:
*3. 1417 Year Old Black Belts and Senior Division (All Belts)​*In Rocky Mountain Open sparring competition, the Senior Black Belt adult rules shall apply for these divisions. Junior (14-
17) and Senior Black Belt divisions will also wear Electronic Body Protectors (EBP) provided by USA Taekwondo for all​sparring matches
 
So there is your opportunity to see and or use them first hand.


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## Andrew Green (Aug 21, 2008)

mango.man said:


> From what I have seen of the demos of the e-hogu thus far, I have not been impressed.



I've not even heard of them, but I am picturing a high voltage shock whenever you get hit.  Big flash, disabling shock that knocks the person back and sends them flying.

That is what I am envisioning here, and I would appreciate no one bursting my bubble and claiming they are more like fencing set ups just used for score keeping.


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## Kwanjang (Aug 21, 2008)

Originally Posted by *bluekey88* 

 
_Sadly, the reason for no punching is that despite a punch to the body "that cuases trembling shock" being worht a point...judges simply don't score punches_



This is a little off topic, I have seen this many times and as a TKDist I don't understand this at al. Yeah, TKD is a lot of kicking. But I seen people who can punch hard enough to knock the wind out of you through the hogu. (chest protector)  and still not get a valid point.


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## Traditionalist (Aug 21, 2008)

I don't do TKD either but just listening to his commentary and watching the matches I would say they keep their hands down because most of the kicks that are being thrown are round kicks to the body. I saw that a lot of those kicks were being blocks buy the arms, and you have to have a good kick to the chest protector to score a point. And why punch because they aren't going to be counted and I find a lot of people keep their hands up to block and to give them a good punching base. Remember Olympic Sparring is not real fighting. Its a sport and I'm sure, or at least I hope, those guys and gals wouldn't fight like that in a real fighting situation.


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## Traditionalist (Aug 21, 2008)

I do have to say I was impressed with the mens AFG (afghanistan) and the ESP (spain) match. Where the AFG did a flying kick and knocked the ESP on his butt. I can't remember what weight class but its a good match.


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## Bodhisattva (Aug 21, 2008)

IcemanSK said:


> I was up late watching the 1st night of TKD, & watching the commentary written on the screen. The guy writting the commentary said he was one of the Olympic assistant coaches. I didn't catch his name. He answered questions folks wrote in via email address. One answer I thought was odd.
> 
> An email asked about keeping their hands down. He responded, "for my lower rank students, I teach them to keep their hands up. For this level of competition, they should know how to protect their heads by now."
> 
> ...



Any fighter who trusts a teacher that trains him with his hands down is in for some horrible surprises later in his career


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## zDom (Aug 21, 2008)

Traditionalist said:


> Its a sport and I'm sure, or at least I hope, those guys and gals wouldn't fight like that in a real fighting situation.



And THAT is the problem: they just might!

You FIGHT like you TRAIN, and if you are spending THAT much time playing that game, chances are under duress that is exactly how you will fight.


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## zDom (Aug 21, 2008)

Kwanjang said:


> This is a little off topic, I have seen this many times and as a TKDist I don't understand this at al. Yeah, TKD is a lot of kicking. But I seen people who can punch hard enough to knock the wind out of you through the hogu. (chest protector)  and still not get a valid point.



I once made a guy who was a head taller and outweighed me by 50 pounds refuse to come back for the second round because of my punches during an Olympic-style match.

Good thing because I probably would have lost based on points, based on how I've seen matches scored there


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## Andrew Green (Aug 21, 2008)

zDom said:


> And THAT is the problem: they just might!
> 
> You FIGHT like you TRAIN, and if you are spending THAT much time playing that game, chances are under duress that is exactly how you will fight.



How is it any different then the stop and go point fighting most schools do?  Or the schools that pull every strike?

And for the record, I'd put my money on a Olympic TKD fighting in exactly that way over just about any average Joe, and a good number of active martial artists


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## Tez3 (Aug 21, 2008)

Traditionalist said:


> I do have to say I was impressed with the mens AFG (afghanistan) and the ESP (spain) match. Where the AFG did a flying kick and knocked the ESP on his butt. I can't remember what weight class but its a good match.


 

The Afghan got £25000 (approx $50000) for getting a medal.


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## bowser666 (Aug 21, 2008)

No hands up while fighting is the most retarded thing I have ever heard and is a horrible thing to make a habit. Whether sport fighting or not.  It is sadly why I have a hard time Respecting WTF style TKD.  Old school TKD students should be ashamed of this style of TKD IMO.

P.S. If they continue the hands  down technique then they may want to reconfigure there WTF acronym.


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## Tez3 (Aug 22, 2008)

Anyone want to explain how the British lad lost against the Chinese? Only the Chinese were cheering when their lad won the bronze the international crowd were booing ( not good in itself I know) the decisions were so biased it was obvious. This isn't sour grapes btw, other neutral countries were also saying it in interviews.


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## bluekey88 (Aug 22, 2008)

Kwanjang said:


> Originally Posted by *bluekey88*
> 
> 
> _Sadly, the reason for no punching is that despite a punch to the body "that cuases trembling shock" being worht a point...judges simply don't score punches_
> ...


 

here's how bad it is.  At a qualifying event in NJ this year, we had a competitor (17 y.o. 2nd Dan), punch his opponenet so hard as to knock him off his feet.  No point was awarded.  

At nationals, I had to attend a seminar to maintain my coaches credentials.  The head referree for the whole was doing a question/answer session.  When asked by another coach if punches were going to get scored eh said "yes, in fact I saw several punches scored today (the openeing day of thre event)".  I was there for a week...i saw TONS of fights...not a single punch scored.  The other two coaches on our team reported similar impressions.

As for the electronic hogus, I saw they were letting the kids kick these things and light up a littel score board.  I wanted to go in and throw a couple of elbows jusrt to see what would happen (would it score?) but I never got the chance.

Peace,
Erik


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## bluekey88 (Aug 22, 2008)

Bodhisattva said:


> Any fighter who trusts a teacher that trains him with his hands down is in for some horrible surprises later in his career


 

I can't speak for other schools, but I imagine that outside of competition, a variety of defenses (guards are taught).  I knwo in my school, we teach a low gaurd for ocmpetition, thats what works.  However, it's hands up for all other drills.  Personally, I'll adjust my guard to meet the attacks presented by my opponent.  Hands up high for someone looking to box/throw hands.  More of a square stance with hands at mid level fro someone looking to wrestle/shoot.  

I think the true measure of a competent fighter is to adjust what they do to fit the challenges at hand.

Peace,
Erik


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## crushing (Aug 22, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> The Afghan got £25000 (approx $50000) for getting a medal.


 
I read about that and wondered if he feared going home now.


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## mango.man (Aug 22, 2008)

I wonder if the ITA guy will get any $$$ for beating Steven Lopez???  Even though ITA should have lost by multiple kyongos in the final 30 seconds of regulation.


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## Kwanjang (Aug 22, 2008)

zDom said:


> I once made a guy who was a head taller and outweighed me by 50 pounds refuse to come back for the second round because of my punches during an Olympic-style match.
> 
> Good thing because I probably would have lost based on points, based on how I've seen matches scored there


 
HE,HE,  (owch!) I been punched by you! The guy you punched that didn't want to continue says it all! They the WTF should re-tool the rules, or it will bring the other meaning to "WTF"


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## zDom (Aug 22, 2008)

Andrew Green said:


> How is it any different then the stop and go point fighting most schools do?  Or the schools that pull every strike?



Oh, I agree 100%!

I feel fortunate that when I was going up through the ranks, my instructor played ROUGH with me (and a couple other die-hards at the dojang, including Kwanjang &#8212; and don't let him fool ya: he may compliment MY punches, but he used to hit just as hard as me, and back when he was only 130 lbs!). 

That's my favorite type of sparring (and, I think, the most useful) &#8212; continuous, very little gear: just mouthpiece, cup, hand pads and (sometimes) foot pads. It was scary stuff: we rode that line of danger in that if we slipped up, we could have seriously injured each other. There were times I remember thinking, "Are we just sparring, or is this a REAL FIGHT??"

Now, it can wear on a person to do that ALL the time &#8212; but I think anyone that is serious about training their martial arts for self defense should do this a few times.


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## Mimir (Aug 22, 2008)

It will be interesting to see how they apply the use of the electronic system.  If it will register punches better, perhaps that will cause a shift to a more dynamic and traditional style.

Also if the electronic systems are affordable enough, it could change the stop and call for points competitions.  It would speed them up and make to where you have to be ready to defend as well as strike.  I think it might also encourage more combinations instead of throwing one thing and then waiting to see if it scored.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2008)

In the TKD match I saw, there was as much acting as athletics involved. Every time they would throw a kick, they would yell and do a Tiger Woods fist pump like they had just landed a killing blow.  I still can't understand why the opponent didn't take that opportunity to kick her.  They both did it, so maybe it's an unwritten rule to not kick your opponent while they try to sell their technique to the judges.


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## zDom (Aug 22, 2008)

Mimir said:


> It will be interesting to see how they apply the use of the electronic system.  If it will register punches better, perhaps that will cause a shift to a more dynamic and traditional style.
> 
> Also if the electronic systems are affordable enough, it could change the stop and call for points competitions.  It would speed them up and make to where you have to be ready to defend as well as strike.  I think it might also encourage more combinations instead of throwing one thing and then waiting to see if it scored.



At this point, we can only hope ...


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## zDom (Aug 22, 2008)

stevebjj said:


> In the TKD match I saw, there was as much acting as athletics involved. Every time they would throw a kick, they would yell and do a Tiger Woods fist pump like they had just landed a killing blow.



Yea... buncha crap, IMO.

When I'm judging/ref'ing, that sort of showmanship will have an influence on how I score them, but probably not in the way they want.

I prefer class over self-congratulating behavior.


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## mango.man (Aug 22, 2008)

zDom said:


> Yea... buncha crap, IMO.
> 
> When I'm judging/ref'ing, that sort of showmanship will have an influence on how I score them, but probably not in the way they want.
> 
> I prefer class over self-congratulating behavior.


 
Thanks for admitting you are a horrible judge.  I hope we do not run into you in any of our matches.

As a judge you should not be concerning yourself with what a fighter does before or after they kick.  Your only job should be to push the red or blue buttons when you see a valid scoring techinque hitting a valid scoring area.

Try to keep your personal feelings out of it.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 22, 2008)

Mimir said:


> It will be interesting to see how they apply the use of the electronic system. If it will register punches better, perhaps that will cause a shift to a more dynamic and traditional style.
> 
> Also if the electronic systems are affordable enough, it could change the stop and call for points competitions. It would speed them up and make to where you have to be ready to defend as well as strike. I think it might also encourage more combinations instead of throwing one thing and then waiting to see if it scored.


Electric scoring has been the standard if sport fencing for years.  It has its advantages; you hit, you score without having to worry about whether or not the judge saw it.  It also has its disadvantages; the amount of pressure needed for a score is hardly what you would need to apply in the use of an actual sword, you're teathered, because the action is too fast for wireless (believe it or not), and you have the added headaches of equipment failure due to electronics.

I do think that it could work fairly well for taekwondo, but I have no first or even second hand knowledge of how well it actually works.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 22, 2008)

zDom said:


> Yea... buncha crap, IMO.
> 
> When I'm judging/ref'ing, that sort of showmanship will have an influence on how I score them, but probably not in the way they want.
> 
> I prefer class over self-congratulating behavior.


Unless such behaviour is expressly against the rules, then it should not be a factor in scoring.  

Daniel


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## FearlessFreep (Aug 22, 2008)

Of note is the fact that they do not fight with their hands down...

They stance with their hands down but the interval is so great that you couldn't throw a hand to the face without closing distance, and even a foot to the face is quite a reach.  

As the interval closes, the hands go up whether the interval is closing from their efforts or the opponents


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2008)

FearlessFreep said:


> Of note is the fact that they do not fight with their hands down...
> 
> They stance with their hands down but the interval is so great that you couldn't throw a hand to the face without closing distance, and even a foot to the face is quite a reach.
> 
> As the interval closes, the hands go up whether the interval is closing from their efforts or the opponents


In the matches I've seen so far, they have never once guarded their heads.  Their hands move up, but only to about chest high. 

I'm also wondering why they don't continue to kick while their opponents are fist pumping and looking at the ref.  Is this against the rules?


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## zDom (Aug 22, 2008)

Mango.man said:
			
		

> Thanks for admitting you are a horrible judge. I hope we do not run into you in any of our matches.
> 
> As a judge you should not be concerning yourself with what a fighter does before or after they kick. Your only job should be to push the red or blue buttons when you see a valid scoring techinque hitting a valid scoring area.
> 
> Try to keep your personal feelings out of it.



Whoa, tiger. Judgemental much?

Ask anyone who has seen me ref or been in a match I was judging/ref'ing for and you will find I am as impartial as humanly possible.

Don't read too much into an offhand bit of rhetoric.

We are ALL influenced on a subconcious level by our impressions of people. At least I am self aware enough to know it  and accordingly, will be less likely to let those influences effect my performance as a judge.




Celtic Tiger said:


> Unless such behaviour is expressly against the rules, then it should not be a factor in scoring.
> 
> Daniel


 
Very often attempting to influence the judge's decision by such overt shows is indeed expressly forbidden.


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## mango.man (Aug 22, 2008)

zDom said:


> Whoa, tiger. Judgemental much?
> 
> Ask anyone who has seen me ref or been in a match I was judging/ref'ing for and you will find I am as impartial as humanly possible.
> 
> ...


 
I unnderstand how the subconcious works.  But you made a definative statement  





zDom said:


> When I'm judging/ref'ing, that sort of showmanship *will* have an influence on how I score them, but probably not in the way they want.


  That is pretty decisive and to me it translates to "If a fighter celebrates a point, I will not score it regardless of the validity of the point"




zDom said:


> Very often attempting to influence the judge's decision by such overt shows is indeed expressly forbidden.


 
I have never seen that written in any rules of competition that I have read.  And we compete in 15-20 tournaments/year.


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## Jade Tigress (Aug 22, 2008)

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## Laurentkd (Aug 22, 2008)

zDom said:


> I prefer class over self-congratulating behavior.


 

I agree.  "Self cheering" used to be specifically against the rules and received a half point deduction.  I don't understand why this has changed.  TKD is supposed to teach respect and self-discipline and this cheering and fist pumping obviously shows neither.  And I don't think I am holding TKD to a higher standard (although I believe it should be), we all teach our children (or should IMO) be good losers as well as good winners and even the NFL and other professional sport organizations penalize for this type of behavior.  As was mentioned somewhere else, it is not currently against the rules, so that is the way the game is played.... but I still don't like it, nor do I teach it.


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## terryl965 (Aug 22, 2008)

Well actually mango.man they can get a one point deduction for celebrating or tauning if you choose to call it. Poor sportmanship is just bad taste from anybody.


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## Tez3 (Aug 23, 2008)

WOW! Quite amazing things happening at the moment! Sarah Stevenson the British girl fought another Chinese ( the 2 times Olympic gold medal winner and biggest name in Chinese TKD) and clearly and obviouls scored 2 points with a kick to the Chinese girls head, ( I'd call it a crescent kick not sure what it is in TKD) the Chinese girls head went right back. It wasn't scored and the British girl 'lost'. SDame situation as the british lad. The british girl was distraught as it was clear she'd won. However the British man in charge of our TKD team put an objection in and it was upheld!! Our girl goes through to fight in the semi final! The chinese team officials by all accounts agreed their girl had lost and credit is being given to them for their sportsmanship.
However the Chinese crowd hasn't been told other than in English. It's a big crowd and they are waiting for their heroine to come out! There's a delay while the British girl gets ready for her bout, I think there may be some trouble when the Mexican and the british girl come out and not the chinese.
I'll post again after the match as it's due in five minutes.
The Swiss offical who announced it said in English said he was sorry to disappoint the crowd but justice must be done!


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## Tez3 (Aug 23, 2008)

Well Sarah lost her match against the +67kg world champion Espinoza but will go on to fight for bronze. Poor Sarah wasn't ready to fight again as she'd gone off and got showered changed etc ready to leave the venue when she was called to fight, still she fought gamely against a very good opponent who had had to wait before she could fight.
As the commentators said though, it was the sport that won. The Chinese crows were quiet thank goodness, the Mexican lass had a big amount of vocal support as well as Sarah so it wasn't noticable that the chinese crowd were not happy.


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## Tez3 (Aug 23, 2008)

I'm very proud to announce that Sarah Stevenson has just won Britain's first TKD medal! She got the bronze, yay!! 
She picked herself up and despite a painful injury as well as the upset of her fight with the Chinese girl, she went for it. A true warrior.


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## KickFest (Aug 23, 2008)

FearlessFreep said:


> As the interval closes, the hands go up whether the interval is closing from their efforts or the opponents


 
I asked my instructor about the whole hands-down thing and he said that at bb level this is what happens. I don't think he would recommend this from a SD standpoint but this is what works in competition so this is what they do. I can only assume that at this skill level, they are aware of the sorts of techniques that are likely to be used against them, and change their guard to whatever is going to block the most techniques at a given distance. I saw LOTS of plain turning kicks so having the hands down like that makes sense in this context. Personally I have always been taught to keep my guard up but then I'm not a bb.

The whole self-congratulating fist-pumping celebrations should be penalised. It makes me cringe every time I see it.

And WELL DONE SARAH!! Way to kick butt! :headbangin:


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## crushing (Aug 23, 2008)

KickFest said:


> The whole self-congratulating fist-pumping celebrations should be penalised. It makes me cringe every time I see it.


 
No kidding, I found the fist-pumping incredibly annoying (but some of the hihaps even moreso ;-) ), but I'm not sure it should be penalized.  I was more upset over the judging as Tez brough up and a particpant feigning getting kicked in the groin after getting a good solid kick in the stomach.  If I wanted to see such drama I would watch football(soccer).


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 26, 2008)

zDom said:


> Very often attempting to influence the judge's decision by such overt shows is indeed expressly forbidden.


Then they should refrain from doing so.  Just to put my comment into context, there are sports where such things are expressly forbedden, or are limited (such as in Football where the 'victory dance' is now forbidden), so I didn't want to assume that you were right or wrong in your scoring.  I am, after all, not present.

Regarding an earlier comment about why they don't just kick the celebretory opponent whilst they pump their fist looking at the ref, they probably should.  I've seen fencers who thought that they scored and stopped fencing, only to get nailed and lose the bout.  If your light doesn't go off and the ref doesn't stop the action, you keep on going.  If you think that your electrics are experiencing a problem, there is protocol for stopping the bout.  

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 26, 2008)

Laurentkd said:


> I agree. "Self cheering" used to be specifically against the rules and received a half point deduction. I don't understand why this has changed. TKD is supposed to teach respect and self-discipline and this cheering and fist pumping obviously shows neither. And I don't think I am holding TKD to a higher standard (although I believe it should be), we all teach our children (or should IMO) be good losers as well as good winners and even the NFL and other professional sport organizations penalize for this type of behavior. As was mentioned somewhere else, it is not currently against the rules, so that is the way the game is played.... but I still don't like it, nor do I teach it.


I sadly didn't get to watch the two sports I was most interested in; fencing and taekwondo.  In fencing, we are instructed to behave identically whether we win or lose, which means saluting your opponent and a hand shake.  I don't know if that translates to Olympic competition (probably not), but that is how competitors in any sport should conduct themselves.  Taekwondo in particular, seeing as how taekwondo has actual tenets.

Daniel


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## KickFest (Aug 26, 2008)

On the subject of self cheering, read rule #13 on this page...
http://www.wtf.org/WTF_NEW_LOOK/DOCUMENT_ROOT/site/rules/rules3.htm
I'm not sure I can take the WTF seriously when they do things like this.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 26, 2008)

KickFest said:


> On the subject of self cheering, read rule #13 on this page...
> 
> http://www.wtf.org/WTF_NEW_LOOK/DOCUMENT_ROOT/site/rules/rules3.htm
> 
> I'm not sure I can take the WTF seriously when they do things like this.


Well, since there seems to be no penalty for kicking the sod while he's pumping his fist in the middle of a match, I guess I can live with it.  One would hope that the people who train the competitors.  Most schools do not train exclusively for competition, thus the masters should be teaching the TKD tenets and the general decorum that one associates with the martial arts.  

Those schools that train only for competition I would hope place a focus on good sportsmanship, and I question whether the behavior under discussion (fist pumping and such) falls into that category.  I suppose that as long as both participants are on the same page that its alright, but I find it out of place in the martial arts.

Daniel


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## mango.man (Aug 26, 2008)

zDom said:


> Very often attempting to influence the judge's decision by such overt shows is indeed expressly forbidden.


 
It is not expressly forbidden.  In fact, it is expressly allowed as "KickFest" posted above.  

Thanks KickFest for finding that  I remember reading that a few years ago but never got around to trying to find it.  I believe this rule came about at the same time as rule allowing comppetitors to fall down while delivering a valid technique, and still score.


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## mango.man (Aug 26, 2008)

Celtic Tiger said:


> I sadly didn't get to watch the two sports I was most interested in; fencing and taekwondo.


 
All the matches for both of these sports are still available on nbcolympics.com and I imagine they will be for quite some time.


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## mango.man (Aug 26, 2008)

Celtic Tiger said:


> Those schools that train only for competition I would hope place a focus on good sportsmanship, and I question whether the behavior under discussion (fist pumping and such) falls into that category. I suppose that as long as both participants are on the same page that its alright, but I find it out of place in the martial arts.


 
I am not sure I can explain it any other way.  God knows I have tried to explain it every way possible.  I think this is my last stab at it.

The Olympic sport of Taekwondo and the Martial Art of Taekwondo both share a name "Taekwondo" just like a Yugo Automobile and a Ferrari Automobile both share the name "Automobile".

But for both of the above, the common name is about all they have in common.  It is pointless to try to compare the 2  I really wish Olympic TKD would just change its name, then maybe this nonsense of trying to compare the 2 would end.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 26, 2008)

zDom said:


> Very often attempting to influence the judge's decision by such overt shows is indeed expressly forbidden.


Out of curiosity, do you judge at WTF events?  If so, how much latitude do tournament officials have in rules interpretations?  In other words, can the people holding the tournament make a house rule along the lines of 'no self agrandizing displays' or similar wording?

Daniel


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## Laurentkd (Aug 26, 2008)

Celtic Tiger said:


> Out of curiosity, do you judge at WTF events? If so, how much latitude do tournament officials have in rules interpretations? In other words, can the people holding the tournament make a house rule along the lines of 'no self agrandizing displays' or similar wording?
> 
> Daniel


 

Sure... most tournaments I go to call it "modified Olympic rules".  In my experience a lot of schools usually use it to take away the point ceiling, or to limit face contact.  I haven't see one that prohibits the self-cheering, but I think it is a good idea.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 26, 2008)

mango.man said:


> I am not sure I can explain it any other way. God knows I have tried to explain it every way possible. I think this is my last stab at it.
> 
> The Olympic sport of Taekwondo and the Martial Art of Taekwondo both share a name "Taekwondo" just like a Yugo Automobile and a Ferrari Automobile both share the name "Automobile".
> 
> But for both of the above, the common name is about all they have in common. It is pointless to try to compare the 2 I really wish Olympic TKD would just change its name, then maybe this nonsense of trying to compare the 2 would end.


Not sure why you feel that you need to explain the differences to me, as I am well aware of them, and what has any of that to do with sportsmanship?

Daniel


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## mango.man (Aug 26, 2008)

Celtic Tiger said:


> Not sure why you feel that you need to explain the differences to me, as I am well aware of them, and what has any of that to do with sportsmanship?


 
I feel the need to say it to you and others because you and others post things like:



Celtic Tiger said:


> Those schools that train only for competition I would hope place a focus on good sportsmanship, and I question whether the behavior under discussion (fist pumping and such) falls into that category. I suppose that as long as both participants are on the same page that its alright, *but I find it out of place in the martial arts*.


 
The TKD you see in the Olympics has nothing in common with the Martial Art of TKD, other than the name, yet people keep trying to make comparisons between the two.  I don't think it is fair to the martial art of TKD to make such a comparision, nor is it fair to the sport of TKD to make such a comparison.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 26, 2008)

mango.man said:


> I feel the need to say it to you and others because you and others post things like:
> 
> 
> 
> The TKD you see in the Olympics has nothing in common with the Martial Art of TKD, other than the name, yet people keep trying to make comparisons between the two. I don't think it is fair to the martial art of TKD to make such a comparision, nor is it fair to the sport of TKD to make such a comparison.


You're posting on a martial arts board about a sport that you feel _isn't a martial art._  Deal with it.

And you didn't answer my question: what does any of your explanation have to do with *sportsmanship*?  

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 28, 2008)

Laurentkd said:


> Sure... most tournaments I go to call it "modified Olympic rules". In my experience a lot of schools usually use it to take away the point ceiling, or to limit face contact. I haven't see one that prohibits the self-cheering, but I think it is a good idea.


I guess thats what our school does.  Our in house tournaments (we have more than one school) do not allow for such behaviour.  You bow in, you touch gloves, you compete, you shake hands, and you bow out.  

We still consider the Olympic TKD to be a part of the martial art, Taekwondo, so the same standards are expected whether you're competing or step sparring.  In fact, the tentets of Taekwondo are expected to be followed whether or not one is in the dojang, and that includes open tournaments, which our students are not discouraged in taking part in.

Daniel


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## bluekey88 (Aug 28, 2008)

As a coach for a children's competition team, here's what we tell our players.  Kiap loud when you score (to sell the point if you will).  DON'T fist pump.  If your opponent tries any of that...kick 'em.  It's the only way to break them of a bad habit. 

Peace,
Erik


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## YoungMan (Aug 29, 2008)

Here's a better idea: the referees need to penalize fighters who do that, which they should be doing anyway. If the fighters know they will be issued warnings and docked points, maybe they'll think twice about doing it.
It boils down to properly trained referees and coaches.


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## mango.man (Aug 29, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> Here's a better idea: the referees need to penalize fighters who do that, which they should be doing anyway. If the fighters know they will be issued warnings and docked points, maybe they'll think twice about doing it.
> It boils down to properly trained referees and coaches.


 
Go back and read post # 57 in this thread.  As you will see, such behavior is encouraged in the rules.  

How can you penalize a fighter or a coach for following the rules?  And if a referee does issue kyongos for it, then you are right in your assessment that they are not properly trained.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 29, 2008)

Mango is correct; the rules do provide for self cheering.  

The biggest problem with this is that the competitors all have belts, most likely through the Kukkiwon.  USAT can issue blackbelts, but they do so through the WTF, which does so through the Kukkiwon.  

Holders of belts hold grades and rank in Kukkiwon taekwondo, and the Kukkiwon is _not_ an athletic body.  As a belt holder, one is expected to observe the tenets of taekwondo.  This supercedes any allowance of contrary behaviour by an athletic body.  

So long as a belt ranking system is used, and so long as those belts are issued by the Kukkiwon, the holders of those belts are _obliged_ by that tie to follow those tenets.  Unfortunately, self cheering and fist pumping are opposed to those tenets:

Courtesy · Integrity · Self-Control · Perseverance · Indomitable Spirit

Specifically, self cheering and fist pumping break the first and third.  Self cheering is discoureous (and bad sportsmanship in my book) and also shows lack of self control.  

Funny thing, but as I have said before: the athletes whom we most admire embody these tenets.  Nobody really _likes_ Roger Clemons even though he is undeniably a great pitcher.  Same for Barry Bonds, who holds a home run record.  Nobody likes them because they behave poorly.  Does Taekwondo really need a Barry Bonds or a Roger Clemons?  I say no.

Bottom line is that if you hold a rank in a martial art, then you should _behave_ like a martial artist, not like a juvenile on the schoolyard.  Just because grown men in the NFL, NBA, and MLB do it doesn't make it anything else.  When you wear that belt, better is expected of you.

Daniel


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## Tez3 (Aug 29, 2008)

Obviously the Olympics competitors have black belts but what's their rank generally? Do they have to be any specific Dan grade to compete?


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 29, 2008)

Tez, I looked on the USAT site and except for the Junior Blackbelt Division, there seems to be no belt requirement at all.  I didn't dig too long or too deeply, so I could be mistaken. 

Daniel


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## mango.man (Aug 29, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> Obviously the Olympics competitors have black belts but what's their rank generally? Do they have to be any specific Dan grade to compete?


 
KKW 1st dan is all you need


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## Laurentkd (Aug 29, 2008)

It is my understanding that most have a 1st Dan only.  I believe the general thought is Why worry about progressing in rank when all you really want to do is spar?  This may be a misconception though as I am not involved at that level.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 29, 2008)

Laurentkd said:


> It is my understanding that most have a 1st Dan only. I believe the general thought is Why worry about progressing in rank when all you really want to do is spar? This may be a misconception though as I am not involved at that level.


Actually, I don't personally believe that you should even bother with first dan if all you want to do is spar.  If you want to compete in tournaments that require you to be blackbelt, then that is about the only reason.  But once you wear that black belt and accept that certificate, you should behave like a dan rank practitioner, both in and out of the dojang.  And that includes competition.

Daniel


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## YoungMan (Aug 30, 2008)

Not necessarily. Don't confuse the martial arts setting with tournament free sparring. True, you must hold at a 1st Dan to compete. But limiting yourself to sparring, drills, steps practice, and armor practice is not the same thing as practicing martial arts. This entails the whole spectrum of endeavor: forms, basics, Oriental culture, philosophy etc.
Focusing on Olympic sparring does not make you a martial artist or require the martial arts mentality, it is merely organized athletics. As such, what we think of proper martial arts etiquette and behavior does not come into play.


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## Laurentkd (Aug 30, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> Not necessarily. Don't confuse the martial arts setting with tournament free sparring. True, you must hold at a 1st Dan to compete. But limiting yourself to sparring, drills, steps practice, and armor practice is not the same thing as practicing martial arts. This entails the whole spectrum of endeavor: forms, basics, Oriental culture, philosophy etc.
> Focusing on Olympic sparring does not make you a martial artist or require the martial arts mentality, it is merely organized athletics. As such, what we think of proper martial arts etiquette and behavior does not come into play.


 
But, in my opinion if you are a 1st Dan you are a martial artist and should always show good etiquette and behavior in all areas of life.  And if no martial art etiquette should come into play why do we still bow to each other before and after the match?


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## zDom (Aug 30, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> Not necessarily. Don't confuse the martial arts setting with tournament free sparring. True, you must hold at a 1st Dan to compete. But limiting yourself to sparring, drills, steps practice, and armor practice is not the same thing as practicing martial arts. This entails the whole spectrum of endeavor: forms, basics, Oriental culture, philosophy etc.
> Focusing on Olympic sparring does not make you a martial artist or require the martial arts mentality, it is merely organized athletics. As such, what we think of proper martial arts etiquette and behavior does not come into play.



IMO, non-martial artists have no business competing in a martial art sport.

FIRST step: become a martial artist.

THEN play the martial artist games.

Skipping the first and rushing into the second has turned out, as I would have expected it to, to be *bad*. Even worse is letting the non-martial artists dominate the sport and administration of the sport.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 2, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> Not necessarily. Don't confuse the martial arts setting with tournament free sparring. True, you must hold at a 1st Dan to compete. But limiting yourself to sparring, drills, steps practice, and armor practice is not the same thing as practicing martial arts. This entails the whole spectrum of endeavor: forms, basics, Oriental culture, philosophy etc.
> Focusing on Olympic sparring does not make you a martial artist or require the martial arts mentality, it is merely organized athletics. As such, what we think of proper martial arts etiquette and behavior does not come into play.


You just summed up all of the reasons that a sparring oriented person with no interest beyond competition should not bother with a first dan.  

Those that wish to compete in events that require it should only go for first dan if they are willing to live up to what it actually means to be a first dan and cease advancing until their goals go beyond tournament competition.

Daniel


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## Traditionalist (Sep 3, 2008)

zDom said:


> And THAT is the problem: they just might!
> 
> You FIGHT like you TRAIN, and if you are spending THAT much time playing that game, chances are under duress that is exactly how you will fight.


 
Good Point, Zdom.


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## YoungMan (Sep 5, 2008)

That's the problem that so many dojangs, especially Kukkiwon/WTF dojangs have. Instead of keeping Olympic-style as a side activity to a select few black belts who have the ability to do it, _and with the understanding that it is to be a short-term activity for them, _too many schools make that style their primary curriculum. So that as a beginner you are learning techniques designed merely to score points, instead of solid basics, powerful technique, good manners and philosophy.
As a result, each generation slowly undergoes a degeneration in Taekwondo. More and more, we are left with instructors who only know Olympic-style, and it becomes a process of taking 5 year old kids as students to make them "tomorrow's Olympic champions".


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## Kwanjang (Sep 5, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> That's the problem that so many dojangs, especially Kukkiwon/WTF dojangs have. Instead of keeping Olympic-style as a side activity to a select few black belts who have the ability to do it, _and with the understanding that it is to be a short-term activity for them, _too many schools make that style their primary curriculum. So that as a beginner you are learning techniques designed merely to score points, instead of solid basics, powerful technique, good manners and philosophy.
> As a result, each generation slowly undergoes a degeneration in Taekwondo. More and more, we are left with instructors who only know Olympic-style, and it becomes a process of taking 5 year old kids as students to make them "tomorrow's Olympic champions".


 
Youngman, GREAT post! (respectful bow):asian:


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## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 5, 2008)

Kwanjang said:


> Youngman, GREAT post! (respectful bow):asian:


I second that!

Daniel


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## zDom (Sep 5, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> That's the problem that so many dojangs, especially Kukkiwon/WTF dojangs have. Instead of keeping Olympic-style as a side activity to a select few black belts who have the ability to do it, _and with the understanding that it is to be a short-term activity for them, _too many schools make that style their primary curriculum. So that as a beginner you are learning techniques designed merely to score points, instead of solid basics, powerful technique, good manners and philosophy.
> *As a result, each generation slowly undergoes a degeneration in Taekwondo. *More and more, we are left with instructors who only know Olympic-style, and it becomes a process of taking 5 year old kids as students to make them "tomorrow's Olympic champions".



EXACTLY (my bold for emphasis)


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## IcemanSK (Sep 5, 2008)

This is my problem in trying to find tournaments for my students. I'm old school TKD. Most TKD tournaments are Olympic-style in Los Angeles. Open tournaments often are cold to TKD forms competitors.

I'm 210 miles from my closest sister school. My only other option is to get together with like-minded schools & have small intra-school get-togethers & work that way. It's not a bad thing, but not the same experience as a tournament. Tho it is cheaper & less stressful.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 5, 2008)

IcemanSK said:


> This is my problem in trying to find tournaments for my students. I'm old school TKD. Most TKD tournaments are Olympic-style in Los Angeles. Open tournaments often are cold to TKD forms competitors.
> 
> I'm 210 miles from my closest sister school. My only other option is to get together with like-minded schools & have small intra-school get-togethers & work that way. It's not a bad thing, but not the same experience as a tournament. Tho it is cheaper & less stressful.


We do kind of the same thing.  Fortunately, our sister school is less than forty minutes away.

Daniel


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