# Do you shadow box in addition to doing Katas?



## Acronym (Dec 18, 2020)

I don't think it's standard for Karatekas to do in the older styles of Karate but not sure...


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## jobo (Dec 18, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I don't think it's standard for Karatekas to do in the older styles of Karate but not sure...


no, shodow boxing is about as useful as kata and i dont need two nearly useless things taking up my time.

i do however hit things,


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## Never_A_Reflection (Dec 28, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I don't think it's standard for Karatekas to do in the older styles of Karate but not sure...



Not to the degree that boxers or kickboxers tend to shadowbox, but I don't think it's all that unusual for karateka to engage in similar practices. I see sport karateka do it all the time (mostly because they never hit anything for real, anyway), using their competition sparring techniques. With old-style karate, I find it is more common to see people "shadowbox" using various bits of kata, and variations on those movements, as the intent and context is different, meaning that we are visualizing attacks from untrained attackers, and how they might respond to our techniques. For that reason, you may not consider it "shadowboxing," because it doesn't look like the sport boxing/kickboxing methods you typically see. We also treat it much more as a sort of "filler" exercise, for when we don't have partners or training equipment around, I think, so it's not something we spend a lot of time on.


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## _Simon_ (Dec 28, 2020)

Yeah we did lots of shadowboxing/shadowsparring in Kyokushin, in addition to sparring, padwork etc. Haven't experienced much of it in the other karate styles I tried...


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## Buka (Dec 29, 2020)

Shadow boxing is practicing movement. Kata is as well. As is sparring.
There's lots of ways to practice movement. Probably best to take advantage of them all.


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## Acronym (Dec 29, 2020)

Never_A_Reflection said:


> Not to the degree that boxers or kickboxers tend to shadowbox, but I don't think it's all that unusual for karateka to engage in similar practices. I see sport karateka do it all the time (mostly because they never hit anything for real, anyway), using their competition sparring techniques. With old-style karate, I find it is more common to see people "shadowbox" using various bits of kata, and variations on those movements, as the intent and context is different, meaning that we are visualizing attacks from untrained attackers, and how they might respond to our techniques. For that reason, you may not consider it "shadowboxing," because it doesn't look like the sport boxing/kickboxing methods you typically see. We also treat it much more as a sort of "filler" exercise, for when we don't have partners or training equipment around, I think, so it's not something we spend a lot of time on.



Yeah, maybe I should have been more precise. So meant shadow box a round or two


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## tigercrane (Dec 29, 2020)

Shadow boxing practice is invaluable. It helps one to visualize the opponent, it teaches to develop “intent”, muscle memory and speed. Just look at most accomplished karate masters, all of them did shadow boxing. One example: Oyama Masutatsu, who spent considerable time in seclusion doing exactly that.


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## Hanshi (Dec 31, 2020)

Shadow boxing is much like doing kata.  I once boxed and found that my previous karate training had taught me speed and follow-through.  But shadow boxing, besides being good exercise, is best done AS boxing and not a mish-mash of karate and boxing.


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## tigercrane (Dec 31, 2020)

Hanshi said:


> Shadow boxing is much like doing kata.  I once boxed and found that my previous karate training had taught me speed and follow-through.  But shadow boxing, besides being good exercise, is best done AS boxing and not a mish-mash of karate and boxing.


I think you are accentuating “boxing” as literally just that. Unlike western boxing/kickboxing, Boxing is a general and very loose term for many classic fighting arts in China, Korea and Japan. A Chinese word “quan” means boxing, however Chinese and Okinawan karate systems are comprised primarily of grappling, joint manipulations, takedowns, punches and kicks. Okinawan karate is first and foremost a grappling art at its core. Most karate dojos never teach karate at the level of grappling, which is a shame. This brings me to the point of importance of “shadow boxing” in direct relation to karate: When a karate practitioner trains in shadow boxing, this means you practice and apply not just the uppercuts and swings, but you also execute many simulated joint manipulation techniques with exception of those that require two men to do drills. Lastly, check out Patrick McCarthy’s Koryu Uchinadi, which demonstrates the classic karate grappling, you’ll be amazed.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 31, 2020)

Hanshi said:


> But shadow boxing, besides being good exercise, is best done AS boxing and not a mish-mash of karate and boxing.


What do you think the difference between boxing and Karate? If you throw jab, hook, uppercut 3 steps 3 punches combo, what will you do differently in Karate than in boxing?


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## tigercrane (Dec 31, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What do you think the difference between boxing and Karate? If you throw jab, hook, uppercut 3 steps 3 punches combo, what will you do differently in Karate than in boxing?


Not sure who you posed this question to, but since Hanshi’s reply was quoted, I’ll let him answer that.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 31, 2020)

tigercrane said:


> Not sure who you posed this question to, but since Hanshi’s reply was quoted, I’ll let him answer that.


It's a general question for everybody.

What's the difference between a Karate punch and a boxing punch? If we use toolbox concept, a tool is just a tool. Whether you bought a hammer from Home Depot, or from Walmart, a hammer is just a hammer.


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 2, 2021)

the difference is large.. the mechanics of a western boxer punch and a traditional karate or chinese punch work different,  to keep with the analogy its not about where you purchase the hammer but the trade in which you aim to apply the tool,,  a ball peen wont pull nails,  hammers are different for different applications.  finish carpenter, framers, roofer, metal worker, mason all have differently designed hammers that match the task at hand.
people could say a punch is a punch and the task is to hurt someone, but that is like saying  martial arts is nothing more than hitting things.  its not a refined answer.   the more granularity and clarity we bring to the topic the more refined the answer needs to be, the more different things become.

@tigercrane 
i would argue that Tode is not grappling.  but you would have to give your definition of grappling first.  Chinese and Okinawan fighting has capture/ seize/ control, throw, but to try and correlate that to our current definition of grappling seems to be implying that karate at some imaginary point in time was equal to BJJ, and thats just not the case. no matter how many so called experts profess karate did hold all the secrets, this is nothing more than an insecurity on their part trying to exclaim to the word  "hey i know BJJ is popular.. i can be special too" and creating applications (bunkai) that mock wrestling that never existed.
many will say, as counter point "well what about "Tegumi".  well yeah what about it, maybe it was practiced in Okinawa but it would be a separate thing just like Sumo or Bokh.  the fact that i wrestled with my friends back in the day of WWF and Hulk Hogan doesnt make it part of a syllabus of the karate i studied. even if i taught my students to jump off the top rope and yell "SUPER FLY". (obscure old school wrestling reference)


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 2, 2021)

to answer the OP question,, yes i used to shadow box (to use that term) in the large wall mirrors to warm up before bag work or class.


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## tigercrane (Jan 3, 2021)

........


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## tigercrane (Jan 3, 2021)

hoshin1600 said:


> @tigercrane
> i would argue that Tode is not grappling. but you would have to give your definition of grappling first. Chinese and Okinawan fighting has capture/ seize/ control, throw, but to try and correlate that to our current definition of grappling seems to be implying that karate at some imaginary point in time was equal to BJJ, and thats just not the case. no matter how many so called experts profess karate did hold all the secrets, this is nothing more than an insecurity on their part trying to exclaim to the word "hey i know BJJ is popular.. i can be special too" and creating applications (bunkai) that mock wrestling that never existed.
> many will say, as counter point "well what about "Tegumi". well yeah what about it, maybe it was practiced in Okinawa but it would be a separate thing just like Sumo or Bokh. the fact that i wrestled with my friends back in the day of WWF and Hulk Hogan doesnt make it part of a syllabus of the karate i studied. even if i taught my students to jump off the top rope and yell "SUPER FLY". (obscure old school wrestling reference)



I understand your argument about Tode, the Chinese Hand as not being viewed as grappling. I respectfully disagree. If we are to speak in direct reference and comparison to wrestling, then no, karate cannot be viewed as one, however if we were to look at most Chinese systems from which karate was molded, many if not most are heavily comprised of Chin na, a form of Chinese grappling that renders well to joint manipulation, joint locks, etc. When Miayagi, Higaonna and Uechi studied in China, they brought back with them almost complete systems that included grappling elements. Way before the above mentioned masters were even born, there had been the first 36 families that migrated from China to Ryu Kyu Islands in 1392. Arguably, these families brought with them family styles martial arts that already then included grappling. Many family styles had then become indigenous Okinawan martial arts. One such family is still remembered in Okinawa - the Kojo family which had taught a closed door family style of Tode (karate). Kojo style is so heavily influenced by grappling elements, it is seen in their kata. Later in 19th and 20th century the Kojo family taught their family members their own jujuitsu along with their main curriculum. Kojo family style of karate is almost exinct, that’s another story. In closing, I would answer your question on what I define as grappling. I define grappling as a system comprised of throws, takedowns, joint locks and other special techniques that involve very close and personal combat. In my opinion, wrestling is a form of grappling, however western wrestling simply does not have the depth of Chinese/Okinawan grappling systems. Thank you for for your input on this topic!


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## isshinryuronin (Jan 3, 2021)

tigercrane said:


> I understand your argument about Tode, the Chinese Hand as not being viewed as grappling. I respectfully disagree. If we are to speak in direct reference and comparison to wrestling, then no, karate cannot be viewed as one, however if we were to look at most Chinese systems from which karate was molded, many if not most are heavily comprised of Chin na, a form of Chinese grappling that renders well to joint manipulation, joint locks, etc. When Miayagi, Higaonna and Uechi studied in China, they brought back with them almost complete systems that included grappling elements. Way before the above mentioned masters were even born, there had been the first 36 families that migrated from China to Ryu Kyu Islands in 1392. Arguably, these families brought with them family styles martial arts that already then included grappling. Many family styles had then become indigenous Okinawan martial arts. One such family is still remembered in Okinawa - the Kojo family which had taught a closed door family style of Tode (karate). Kojo style is so heavily influenced by grappling elements, it is seen in their kata. Later in 19th and 20th century the Kojo family taught their family members their own jujuitsu along with their main curriculum. Kojo family style of karate is almost exinct, that’s another story. In closing, I would answer your question on what I define as grappling. I define grappling as a system comprised of throws, takedowns, joint locks and other special techniques that involve very close and personal combat. In my opinion, wrestling is a form of grappling, however western wrestling simply does not have the depth of Chinese/Okinawan grappling systems. Thank you for for your input on this topic!



I agree and am happy to see another who understands what karate is.

Few people understand that true Okinawan karate is based on grabbing (seizing, not wrestling) and pulling with some twisting as you are punching or kicking.  _Hiki-te _and _tuite_ is the terminology referring to such actions.  This performs several functions: 

     Breaks the opponent's balance
     Pulls him into your strike
     Turns the opponent out of position to land another strike
     Opens up the opponent for your own strikes
     Immobilizes the arm/hand
     Causes damage to the tendons/joints
     Allows you to safely enter

Most kata moves involve such techniques.  This is the "secret" of Okinawan karate that many dojos and instructors are not well versed in.  Often, when you turn in a kata, it is not to face a new opponent, but to drag the guy you're currently engaged with around.  Karate has been criticized for "chambering" the non-punching hand at the hip.  This hand is not taking a vacation, it has grabbed and pulled the attacker in.  Okinawan karate does have much depth.


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 4, 2021)

tigercrane said:


> I understand your argument about Tode, the Chinese Hand as not being viewed as grappling. I respectfully disagree. If we are to speak in direct reference and comparison to wrestling, then no, karate cannot be viewed as one, however if we were to look at most Chinese systems from which karate was molded, many if not most are heavily comprised of Chin na, a form of Chinese grappling that renders well to joint manipulation, joint locks, etc. When Miayagi, Higaonna and Uechi studied in China, they brought back with them almost complete systems that included grappling elements. Way before the above mentioned masters were even born, there had been the first 36 families that migrated from China to Ryu Kyu Islands in 1392. Arguably, these families brought with them family styles martial arts that already then included grappling. Many family styles had then become indigenous Okinawan martial arts. One such family is still remembered in Okinawa - the Kojo family which had taught a closed door family style of Tode (karate). Kojo style is so heavily influenced by grappling elements, it is seen in their kata. Later in 19th and 20th century the Kojo family taught their family members their own jujuitsu along with their main curriculum. Kojo family style of karate is almost exinct, that’s another story. In closing, I would answer your question on what I define as grappling. I define grappling as a system comprised of throws, takedowns, joint locks and other special techniques that involve very close and personal combat. In my opinion, wrestling is a form of grappling, however western wrestling simply does not have the depth of Chinese/Okinawan grappling systems. Thank you for for your input on this topic!


Good post and well informed. But its nothing I already didn't know. Thus in my other post I said karate included capture/seize/ control and throw which i could have just as easily said Chin-na but I thought breaking it down to the four categories would be better understood.
While these classified actions are found in grappling arts as well as Tode I would not go so far as to say that Tode is grappling. You cannot define an art by merely its technique. As an analogy music may contain the pentatonic scale, but no one would confuse Jazz with country or Spanish classical guitar. There is more going on that makes a style a style beyond technique.  From that perspective Tode is not a grappling art even with a heavy Chin-na base. I would also point put in China Eagle Claw and those styles that are predominate Chinna based still use the defining word Boxing as a descriptor not Shuai Jiao


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 4, 2021)

@tigercrane 
After some thought I have a lot more I could say on this because my thinking was incorrect, same possible outcome however. I think we hijacked this thread enough and this topic deserves its own thread. Please feel free to start one or I can later.


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## Koryuhoka (Aug 17, 2021)

Acronym said:


> I don't think it's standard for Karatekas to do in the older styles of Karate but not sure...


Kata is shadowboxing. Just different disciplines and methods.


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## dvcochran (Aug 17, 2021)

Acronym said:


> Yeah, maybe I should have been more precise. So meant shadow box a round or two


I have never shadowed boxed for a round or two in the classical context of a boxer but do shadow box on a regular basis. As @Buka said shadow boxing is done in context a great many ways so the answer to your question is varied. 
Moving at a reduced speed while working on technique and the mental component in invaluable. It really helps flush out the mental mush and crap and improves recall ability when needed. 
Habit and repetition training.


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## angelariz (Aug 17, 2021)

I gave up learning Katas a long time ago after some years popping in to spar in Kenpo schools. Shadow boxing teaches a more natural flow, for me.
I generally only practice weapon katas when teaching brand newbies. Shadow boxing and footwork drills have faster results so i dropped all empty hand kata from my training and teaching long ago.


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## Gyuki (Mar 7, 2022)

Of course, both are good and done for different reasons. I prefer shadowboxing as it is more freeflowing and natural. I am also not at beginning level at which point I might have not been able to even shadowbox properly due to lack of knowledge of techniques or options. 

I do Kata mostly for relaxation, refining muscles and breathing focus. I also do them intensively and  with intension for quick bathroom workout at work (don't tell my boss). 

Also depends what someones ultimate goal is. And I still like to think thay kata teaches proper form and posture for beginners before they engage in free flowing movements.


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