# Street defense unarmed vs. knife (yikes!)



## kenposcum

A while ago, I was attacked by a knife-wielding
assailant.  First, he attempted to drop the knife in my back, but I was fortunate in that I saw him in the reflection of the El train's window.  
  So I turned and faced him.  What was scary (beyond the fact that I was knifeless) was HOW he wielded the knife: he kept the knife along his side, tight and back, and he was attempting to grab me with his left hand (he was standing left foot forward).  We circled for a bit until I finally had a clear path to the stairs, at which point I sprinted to the first platform and leapt down the fifteen or so feet to the ground.  Thankfully, he did not give chase.
  I talked with my instructor about this, as we have no techniques which deal with a situation like this.  I am looking for input (above and beyond "get a gun, kid").  Any technical advice, or direction on where to go to get it, would be very appreciated.  Thanks! :asian:


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## Cthulhu

Sayoc Kali-Silak deals with empty hand vs. knife.  I would suggest that or any Filipino system that deals with knife training.  I know many arts offer knife defense training, but rarely do they also teach how to actually fight with a knife.  The problem is, how can you effectively teach knife defense if you don't even know how to fight with a blade?  Despite what many may tell you, it *is not* simply putting a blade in your hand and doing your empty hand stuff.

Cthulhu
rambling at work.

PS  www.sayoc.com


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## arnisador

Congratulations on surviving. Obviously you knew one technique that worked--getting away--and your training may be part of what helped you not to freeze. I hope you called the police? You may have seen something that could help them identify this person.

You might look at this thread in this forum.

I agree with *Cthulhu* that the Filipino arts have a lot going for them where knife usage and weaponless knife defense are concerned. In your situation--which is tough!--if running wasn't an option and you had no (makeshift) weapons, even your jacket swung at him to keep him back, I'd try to parry away his left hand or _possibly_ lock it, though at the speed the knife hand could move I'd be wary of that; I'd think low-line kicks; and I'd be ready to parry the blade and try to wrest it from him. We practcie lots of disarms and while they can be hard to pull off, if you're grabbed and can't get away you might consider it.

You might try a FMA seminar and see what you think of it--there are plenty round Chicago. Ask in the FMA-General forum.

Above all, congratulations on successfully defending yourself. I was attacked by a knife-wileding opponent once who grabbed me exactly as you indicate and stabbed at my gut--I blocked it and was able to slip away from his grasp.


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## kenposcum

I've seen the jacket idea in Vladimir Vasilev's RMA tapes, I'm curious, would a t-shirt work sort of along the same lines?  It might be somewhat suicidal to take off a t-shirt in said situation, I would suppose....but this specific problem has been bothering me since, well, since it happened, I suppose.    The thing that drives me absolutely crazy is that most knife defense techniques deal only with opponent leading with the knife.  What bothers me about the jacket/shirt/belt(?) idea is he had his free hand forward, which would have made it easy for him to snatch the jacket away.  Low line kicks, as in a side kick to the knee/shin occured to me, but, well...I kind of thought under the circumstances, my response was probably the most sane.  Just worried if I'm faced with a similar opponent, but I'm cornered.  Also, I find it hard to teach the Kenpo knife defenses with this experience in my history, I feel a little guilty about it.
Just out of curiosity, what FMA is "best" or focuses most on unarmed vs. weapons (they died out, they all tried to fight a weapon unarmed, ho ho ho)?  Is that the Sayoc Kali-Silak?
Yes, as soon as I got to the street I found a CTA cop in his cruiser and told him the whole deal.  I don't know what happened though, they never called me or anything.
Thank you very much!


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## knifeman.dk

Like Arnisador I would also congratulate you for staying alive. 
Actually you now posess some information / real life - knowledge that many Martial Artists would love to have. (This is the part we cannot train). 
The stance your assailant had - we call "The sacrificial stance", because he sacrifices his left hand in order to grap you and stab you. This is a stance we consider to be "high rank" or very difficult to deal with. You did the right thing - you reacted without much thinking. Thinking or playing hero could possibly have been fatal. 
You ask for a best FMA system - you should instead look for the person behind the system - the guy/girl who will become your teacher. It is the instructor who guides you through the system. 
You can find the perfect system with the worst instructors and you will find it worthless. About your kenpo knife techniques I would assume that if you have trained them for a while and they are motorized they could be working for you anyway. Also if you cannot picture them right now, because of the incident.
Try looking back on the situation - did you have any "daily objects" that you could have used as a throwing instrument or to put in front of you or use as a parry/strike weapon. I think of objects like rocks, wooden sticks from the ground, litter, umbrella, newspaper, keys, combs, pens etc. 
Use your valuable (and offcourse scary) situation to improve your mental attitude and awareness for situations like this.
:asian: sincerely knifeman.dk


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## bscastro

Wow! I'm glad you survived your encounter. As for general technical tips there are a couple things I would suggest:
1. Simple is better. Some of the fancier FMA disarms don't have high percentage success. Some knife sparring with "splintering" (not on purpose) wooden blades at my old school left many a scratch/scar as I tried some of the disarms.
2. Try to use improvised weapons when possible. rolled up newspaper, shoes, etc. 
3. Two hands on the wheel. Just grab and control the weapon if you can (when running is not an option). One basic defense my current instructor uses is just to parry and grab the knife arm with both hands and just headbutt and knee the opponent while keeping the knife low (holding it down as opposed to higher).
4. Simple is better. It is such a key thing (I'm sure your experience would lead you to this conclusion as well) that it's worth repeating.

In any case, running is always the best option, but it's not always available. 

Anyways, just some thoughts.

Bryan


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## Parker

Nike-Do wins again.  Nice surviving there, man.

Go talk with Fred Degerberg at Degerberg Academy (773) 728-5300 about this sort of thing.  He has some very serious kali/ arnis guys in his stable and they can help you out if you want to follow up with training for this.  There are soe other great FMA schools around, but Fred has been bodyguard to some very big people, he has beena  bouncer at nasty nasty places and will give you the real deal if you ask.

If a guy grabs you with one hand and tries to stab you with the other, leave the one hand grabbing alone.  You know where it is if it is attached to you.  It also sounds contrary to good advice, but if trapped like this, your best bet (unable to leave) is to close with him.  Every time you back out of the way of a stick, you give him the op to stick you again.  You will only get lucky so many times.  

You would redirect (I do not mean parry, I mean smash) the attacking arm with the knife, then immediately close and destroy him and go thru him to leave.  Attempting to deploy any sort of weapon instead of moving and killing him will take time you need to spend destroying him. 

Keep it simple.  if nothing else, read the WWII close combat manuals (Do or Die, Get Tough, Kill or Be Killed, Cold Steel) as these were written for real world work and rely entirely on basic simple PROVEN techniques.) 

Email me if you want a bit more specific information.  If you are out in western burbs I have another great place to find info.  

And yeah, two hands on the wheel works better!


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## GouRonin

...and people always wonder why I wear a belt.

I was once at a bar when a guy pulled out a knife. I pulled off my belt and at the time I was wearing one with a large pewter buckle. I started swinging it in a circle at my side and invited him to come on over and check out the workmanship of it. He declined but it was a mighty fine tool at the time and I'm glad I thought of it.

Recently Big Guy gave me a beautiful give of a small skinner knife but I have been getting hassled for wearing it from several sources. The sheath is fairly visible. So when Jaybacca gave me a folder I started wearing it and put Big Guy's in a display case. (It's sweet)

Some people say that wearing a knife escalates things but I like to think it's a nice deterrent to be able to say to someone drawing down on you, _"Are you sure you wanna do this?"_

Speaking of Vlad's knife videos and improvised defense videos. They are good to check out. If you pick up one useful thing from them isn't it worth it?


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## Cthulhu

I mentioned this to my instructors and they offered some good advice.  If the attacker has the knife in the rear hand, basically strong-side back, circle around to the attacker's back (obviously out of range of the blade), which would be to your right, while avoiding the left hand that's trying to grab you.  By doing this, you are forcing the attacker to not only have to step forward to get the knife in a useful range, but he'd have to also attack around the left side of his body.  Ideally, keep circling until you have an avenue of escape.  Then, run like hell!

This technique won't work if the attacker is strong-side forward with the blade in that hand.  By simply maintaining centerline, he'd make it damn hard to get around to an advantageous position.  Plus, most important, the blade is closer to you.

For everyday carry stuff, we've been looking at aluminum training karambits, such as the ones made by *arnisandyz*.  They don't come to a sharp point, but the tip that is there will still take an eye out and can be used for tip rips if applied hard enough.  There is no edge.  However, the hook of the curved blade help facilitate control of an attackers limbs in medium and close range.  The point and knuckle-duster can be used for destruction in long range, as well as for hitting pressure points closer in.  Playing around with them after class, they seem like a pretty good thing to carry, and they should be legal in most states.  

Hell, they're just fun to train with in general.

Cthulhu


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## arnisador

I agree with the right-circling idea. A finger lock on the left hand _may_ work if the arm is held well out--just break a finger as quickly as you can, closely watching the right hand--but for the most part if you can touch him, he can cut you, and it's a risk. Remember you can also hit the outstretched fingers of his left hand with a punch or backfist or something which will cause some pain. I would be unlikely to try an armbar as you have to move your body too close to him. If he gives you a strong grab an aikido-style redirect and spin/throw might throw him off balance, but might also spin the blade into you.

Someone attacking like this is showing that he has experience and a strategy. Were there _no_ imporvised weapons available? Pocket change to throw, a package in your hands, garbage on the ground? Really, this was probably a good time to use the improvised weapon of your wallet thrown in his face or even at his feet, followed by running like the wind (assuming that's what he wanted).

Tough situation. Your training helped you keep your cool and not freeze--it worked. But I can see where you'd feel better after you'd worked out a possible response. Remember the famous saying of the well-respected military knife expert William Fairbairn though (from here[/url):


IF YOU ARE UN-ARMED - "THERE IS NO DEFENCE AGAINST AN OPPONENT ATTACKING WITH A KNIFE".

He repeats:


...we state there is no means by which an unarmed man can defend against a knife fighter.

He furthermore says:


I have studied this issue for more than twenty-five years and have experienced the attentions of the finest instructors in the world. Please be assured that no martial arts school or technique can offer a predictable method of defense against a knife, and most of the techniques and methods one sees are suicidal against a knife fighter.


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## knifeman.dk

Another area could also be to prepare your mental attitude, psycology can help, both in ways of "reading" another person but also in ways of preparing you for getting cut or maybe even emptying your mind so you are willing to risk your own life to stay alive.
Carrying a knife in means of protecting is another matter - it would not be considered good selfdefence in Europe. 
But it could possibly save your life (and very possibly get you killed too). 
:asian: sincerely knifeman.dk


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## Morpheus

In the first poster's post he mentions that the BG kept his knife arm in tight and led with his free hand. I would take this to mean that the BG wanted to secure with the free hand and then shank him as many times as he could. Keeping the knife arm in and coiled like a spring is good practice and I think it's a basic tennet of WW2 knife fighting. Not sure though.

You took the best option available in an unnarmed vs knife confrontation: you escaped and evaded.

There is no way to learn to take a knife from someone unnarmed who knows what he is doing- as someone pointed out above. if Sayoc Kali or whatever else may well be a fabulous complete system, but there is no silver bullet when it comes to this and while the knife-defenses in SK may be great they are still the equivalent of throwing rocks at an oncoming car to try and stop it.

So if you can't fight unnarmed versus knife, and you're worried about not being able to run in every scenario, maybe consider changing the paradigm.

knife vs knife is much better odds. Consider learning a knife-based art and consider carrying a short fixed blade or a tactical folder.


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## knifeman.dk

Or why don´t you just shoot the guy before he even consider attacking you....
-learning a bladed martial arts system should help your empty hand skills - not turning you into a potential killer. But again, if it is about staying alive or being dead - then shoot him 
knifeman.dk


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## GouRonin

I like to carry 3 knives. One for me. The second for me in case I lose the first one, and a 3rd for a friend or to leave on the body.


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## migo

If the police find you with 3 knives don't you think they're gonna wonder... or arrest you?


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## GouRonin

Not really. I just say I open a lot of boxes. Having knives on you makes one consider their actions more carefully when making decisions. In fact I just picked up a forth recently and I am deciding if I want to just rotate my knives or wear a forth one.

Unlike some people the knives I carry are in the 20 dollar range with the exception of one good onw which I can show and justify quite easily. That way if I need to ditch them I don't lose too much ca$h.


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## tmanifold

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> 
> *I like to carry 3 knives. One for me. The second for me in case I lose the first one, and a 3rd for a friend or to leave on the body. *



Where have I head that before? I know that qoute.

Tony


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## GouRonin

> _Originally posted by tmanifold _
> *Where have I head that before? I know that qoute.
> Tony *



I dunno. I just said it. But I think I may have heard it elsewhere too. Either way, I just said it.


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## The 14th Style

> Unlike some people the knives I carry are in the 20 dollar range with the exception of one good one which I can show and justify quite easily. That way if I need to ditch them I don't lose too much ca$h.




 Hey GouRonin, a question if you don't mind. I was looking at some folders the other day in the 20 to 30 dollar price range. I didn't see any point in spending much more than that. But I held off because I wasn't sure. Do you think it makes much difference?


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## AldonAsher

I agree with GuoRonin.  All of the folders I have cost $20 or less.  I usually throw them when attacked.  Here's the reason:  In most situations I have been in, there was not enough time to draw *and open* the folder.  I'm sure there are a lot of skilled people around (especially on this board) who can draw and open their folders very quickly.  However, I've only had one instance where I had time to draw and open.  I did it by buying myself time by shoving the attacker away and then retreating to safer distance.  Fortunately there was only one attacker.  In a multiple attacker situation, I don't think I would have had the time.  

Yes, I know it is very important to practice drawing your weapon.  Especially from the way you carry.  And yes, I also know it is very important to be aware of your surroundings so you can spot trouble before it reaches you.  

I like to throw the folder in the attacker's face because of the element of surprise.  Most people don't expect it.  Plus, if you carry your folder clipped in your pocket, the motion to reach the knife and throw is very simple.  I am a firm believer in keeping it simple.  I know in the few times I have been ambushed, there wasn't a lot of time for fancy stuff. 

Also, by catching the attacker by surprise, I now had the reactionary advantage.  It took the creep a second to figure what I just did.  Now I could either attack or run (my preference).  

The downside of this is if you can't get away or haven't taken your assailant.  Now he might use your weapon against you.

So, that's why I buy the cheaper folders.  Can you imagine throwing away a $100 knife every time?


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## arnisador

> So, that's why I buy the cheaper folders. Can you imagine throwing away a $100 knife every time?



If you're getting attacked this often and you don't work as a LEO or simialr then you're already doing something wrong, I'd say.


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## Samurai

My Buddy carries 7 knifes on his person....

1 for the right 1 for the left 
2 for a buddy
1 to get muddy
1 to throw and 1 to let go.

At least this is the 'saying' that his teacher gave him.

I a a bit concerned with carrying a knife or two.  I fear the legal aftermath of using a blade.  Let's face it, if I were to use the blade in gunting and parrying then the BG would have what the lawyers call "defensive wounds" on his hands and body.  Even a cheap law school dropout of a lawyer could present a case in which I was the Bad Guy.

I like my self-defense to be quick, reliable, non-letal, and leave no marks.
Just my Two Cents Worth.
Jeremy Bays


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## AldonAsher

And I'd say, Arnisador, you didn't read the part where I said 'the few times I have been ambushed' or the part where I mentioned 'to be aware of your surroundings'.  

BTW, at that time, I was a poor college student and lived in a very bad neighborhood.  Things happened.


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by AldonAsher _
> 
> *And I'd say, Arnisador, you didn't read the part where I said 'the few times I have been ambushed' or the part where I mentioned 'to be aware of your surroundings'.
> 
> BTW, at that time, I was a poor college student and lived in a very bad neighborhood.  Things happened. *



Yeah, that's when I was mugged too. I took your last statement to mean it was an ongoing issue--apparently I misunderstood. Sorry!


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## GouRonin

> _Originally posted by The 14th Style _
> *Hey GouRonin, a question if you don't mind. I was looking at some folders the other day in the 20 to 30 dollar price range. I didn't see any point in spending much more than that. But I held off because I wasn't sure. Do you think it makes much difference? *



It depends, I prefer to carry one good one. The rest are throwaways. That's my deal. Each should have their own way of thinking. I know Renegade :erg: likes to have good knives. Why? He feels that if he's going to trust his life to a blade it better be hardy enough. I can see his reasoning. We just have different needs.

So sure it makes a difference. But the difference is what you feel does the job for you.


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## AldonAsher

I should have specified the context in which these few incidents occurred.  Sorry about that.


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## GouRonin

> _Originally posted by Samurai _
> *I a a bit concerned with carrying a knife or two.  I fear the legal aftermath of using a blade.  Let's face it, if I were to use the blade in gunting and parrying then the BG would have what the lawyers call "defensive wounds" on his hands and body.  Even a cheap law school dropout of a lawyer could present a case in which I was the Bad Guy.*



When I am working in my submission fighting class you'll often see me when I am on the ground slapping my hip and my opponent's ribs really fast. I've been asked if I am doing this for a reason. I sure am. It'll be folder draw and the quick stab on my opponent. After that, I'll just grapple till he can't grapple any more. So I'm practicing. I might not do it but I want to know I can. Besides, the short wounds will not be defensive ones and hard to see. If he reacts and leaves me alone. Great. If not, he's screwed and he wears himself out. I think integrating all your arts to be useful is a good idea. Don't keep them seperate.


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## arnisador

My philosophy is the same as Mr. Hartman's--I want to carry a good one so I know it won't break, fail to open smoothly, etc.

On the other hand I agree with *AldonAsher* that in many cases you won't have the time to open it even if you have time to darw it. A fixed blade has many advantages! Of course you might not even have time to draw that.

In _Desperado_, Antonio Banderas kept a pistol up each sleave, spring-loaded so they flew into his hands. I recommend that, plus more guns in your guitar case.


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## Samurai

> In Desperado, Antonio Banderas kept a pistol up each sleave, spring-loaded so they flew into his hands. I recommend that, plus more guns in your guitar case.



Speaking of this...I saw an old Shaw Brothers Kung-Fu movie where one of the guys had butterfly swords spring loaded in his sleaves.  Good Film.

Jeremy Bays


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## GouRonin

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *My philosophy is the same as Mr. Hartman's--I want to carry a good one so I know it won't break, fail to open smoothly, etc.*



I can see. That. I am looking for one good knife to be a primary. The rest are there just in case.



> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *On the other hand I agree with AldonAsher that in many cases you won't have the time to open it even if you have time to darw it. A fixed blade has many advantages! Of course you might not even have time to draw that.*



Understood. However it's harder to just carry a fixed because there are less places to put it IMHO.



> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *In Desperado, Antonio Banderas kept a pistol up each sleave, spring-loaded so they flew into his hands. I recommend that, plus more guns in your guitar case. *



_**mental note to self - when entering dangerous situations, always send in Arnisador first**"_


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## arnisador

I agree--it's harder to carry and may be harder to legally justify. 

One of Mr. Hartman's friends used to have a big knife with brass knuckle handgrip and a point at the butt end--it would have scared away an army platoon. It was one intimidating-looking knife. You wouldn't need to actually _use_ it.

Let's send Bob Hubbard and his paintball gun through the door first! We'll, uh, have his back, right?


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## GouRonin

I bet it would be harder to justify a fied blade as you can always say the folder is just more of a convienence tool. I dunno. 



> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *Let's send Bob Hubbard and his paintball gun through the door first! We'll, uh, have his back, right? *



Well, since he thinks that I'm afraid of paintguns sure. I just want to say that if mine goes off and shoots him as we're going in it was just because I didn't know how to work the gun. They don't let us have guns up here. Is it my fault it always goes off when it points at Bob? Must be malfunctioning...


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## Rich Parsons

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> 
> *I agree--it's harder to carry and may be harder to legally justify.
> 
> One of Mr. Hartman's friends used to have a big knife with brass knuckle handgrip and a point at the butt end--it would have scared away an army platoon. It was one intimidating-looking knife. You wouldn't need to actually use it.
> 
> Let's send Bob Hubbard and his paintball gun through the door first! We'll, uh, have his back, right? *



If Bob goes first, then I say send in Bunny next.
:rofl: 

Rich


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## Guro Harold

> _Originally posted by AldonAsher _
> 
> *I should have specified the context in which these few incidents occurred.  Sorry about that. *



You D@#$n sure don't want to mug Aldon now, right Cthulhu?


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## Hollywood1340

So far I've diffused two "occasions" by opening my balisong (Butterfly knife). It is amazing what watching crappy martial arts movies does to society. I simply say "Look at this" (Flip, flip, flip, click) and hold in in a non threating posture, like cleaning my fingernails, or cutting the hunk of cheese I was holding the time (It was lunchtime, I was hungry). I know both of the guys now and all is well. Just my 0.02


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## Chiduce

> _Originally posted by kenposcum _
> 
> *A while ago, I was attacked by a knife-wielding
> assailant.  First, he attempted to drop the knife in my back, but I was fortunate in that I saw him in the reflection of the El train's window.
> So I turned and faced him.  What was scary (beyond the fact that I was knifeless) was HOW he wielded the knife: he kept the knife along his side, tight and back, and he was attempting to grab me with his left hand (he was standing left foot forward).  We circled for a bit until I finally had a clear path to the stairs, at which point I sprinted to the first platform and leapt down the fifteen or so feet to the ground.  Thankfully, he did not give chase.
> I talked with my instructor about this, as we have no techniques which deal with a situation like this.  I am looking for input (above and beyond "get a gun, kid").  Any technical advice, or direction on where to go to get it, would be very appreciated.  Thanks! :asian: *


 Welcome to the club and the land of the living. Attacks from behind are always tricky and rely on feeling attention. An old kung fu saying states that "running is the best part of the art".
Sincerely, In Humility'
Chiduce!


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## Cthulhu

> _Originally posted by Palusut _
> 
> *
> 
> You D@#$n sure don't want to mug Aldon now, right Cthulhu? *



You can mug Aldon...it's very possible...

...with a high-powered sniper rifle from about 500 yards.



Cthulhu


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## kenposcum

Well, gentlemen, I've been working with some of these ideas, using a rubber training knife with a dusting of chalk and a few of my students.  Circling around to the right and smash/grabbing the knife wielding arm seems to have the best success rate, particularly when combined with a knee or thrust kick into the back of the knee.  With my more skilled students, however, there was a tendency to reverse the grip on the knife (icepick style) and jab it backwards before I could "both hands on the wheel."  I also tried round kicks, Muay Thai-ish, to the lead leg, which worked with less experienced individuals, but more skilled people tended to get the knife in there.  I didn't really get to try side kicking the lead knee (as that would require disposable students).
But when we started these things, I got "killed(as in multiple thrusts to the chest/abdomen)" about every other time, and now it's down to about one in ten, which may be a function of getting used to my attackers, but it has made me a bit more comfy in dealing with said situation (should I ever be that unfortunate again).
Somebody said something about throwing a folder at his assailant's face: forgive me, but isn't it generally bad policy to arm one's opponent?  Or was the opponent already armed (in which case in would make more sense)?  Throw one and ready the other, was that it?
Well, hey, thank you all very much for your tips and input!  I have not been able to do much extra-cirricular stuff with FMA as I have a test coming up in October, but you can bet after that, I'll be pestering area FM artists!  Thanks again!:asian:


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## arnisandyz

I think the comment of throwing the folder into an assailants face was made in the context that it is used as a distraction to gain an entry, which happens in a split second.  The assailant would not have time to catch open and initiate a weapon in the time it would take to be on top of him (if he is distracted into thinking he can do all these things, all the better)!  Remember, you yourself may not have time to open the weapon (why would your opponent)?


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## J-kid

I pratice knife disarms and gun disarms at my judo /jijutsu place ,  Most schools give some techs.  On how you should try to defend your self.  Glade you made it out ok running is the best choice.


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## sammy3170

> _Originally posted by Judo-kid _
> 
> *I pratice knife disarms and gun disarms at my judo /jijutsu place ,  Most schools give some techs.  On how you should try to defend your self.  Glade you made it out ok running is the best choice. *



Be very careful about when you choose to run from a knife wielding attacker as the moment you turn your back you are faceless which removes any emotion from the situation.   Your attackers predatory instints will kick in and it will make it all the  easier for him to attack.  This is one of the reasons military sentry kills are done from the rear (apart from the obvious).  Just make sure there is plenty of space between you and your attacker and that you honestly believe you can out run them.  

Just some thoughts

Cheers
Sammy


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## hardheadjarhead

Whatever empty hand stuff you practice for going against a knife...put it into sparring.  Merely doing it in "pitch and catch" drills where an attacker feeds a strike and you do the disarm, etc. isn't enough.  Its a start...but you have to spar it.

Sparring will test and sharpen your skills...and you'll learn that going against a knife barehanded is a crappy proposition.  It isn't impossible...but it isn't preferable.  More often than not you'll get chopped up by your partner's training blade.

I like what the Sayoc folks say..."I'M the one with the knife."  Their response in the described situation would have involved pulling knives (plural) of their own.  Or a gun.

We've heard the stories of guys who have done some pretty amazing things barehanded against the blade...but I bet in a lot of these situations the knife wielder wasn't committed, and intended to intimidate with the weapon, rather than kill.  Then too the knife wielder might have had crappy skills, counting on the knife to make up for his lack of speed or strength, or for that matter sobriety...and the weapon failed him against the unarmed martial artist.

And I'll concede there are guys out there who are reeeally, really good...and can do well empty handed against a wide range of people armed with knives.  I submit they are a rare breed.

Regards,

Steve Scott


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## Cthulhu

We occasionally do sparring with aluminum training blades.  Basically, we go until a vital or bleeder is hit.  The few of us who do this are confident enough in each others' control to the point we don't usually wear protective equipment.  For that reason, we won't stab/slash to the face.

Weird.  Must be tired.  Writing is very disjointed.

Cthulhu


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## arnisador

I've found that not going to the face in training can be misleading. When you put on the face gear and allow that target, it seems to really change things, to me at least. The straight-in shot to the face, fencing-style, is hard to see and when it hits the faceplate it SMACKS.


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## Cthulhu

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *I've found that not going to the face in training can be misleading. When you put on the face gear and allow that target, it seems to really change things, to me at least. The straight-in shot to the face, fencing-style, is hard to see and when it hits the faceplate it SMACKS. *



That may be, but our only head protection at the moment is hockey helmets, and a stab will go through the mask grill quite easily 

Cthulhu


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## hardheadjarhead

There are many ways to run the sparring, here are some ideas:

1.  Stop on a vital hit, as mentioned.  Touche.  This makes people sharper, and less careless.  It does ingrain a pause upon contact, though.

2. Give the person receiving the vital hit a few seconds to counter so that you inculcate the "take him with you into the void" type of mentality.  There is something to be said for this, as it counters the tendency to give up the ghost after receiving a solid hit.  You can call something like "RED HIT!  ONE...TWO...THREE...TIME!  Red received a lethal strike and struck none in return."

3.  Do like the SCA folks and have incapaciting shots, with the fighter switching the blade to the undamaged hand, fighting from his knee, not using the limb damaged, whatever.  Some argue that this would never happen in reality.  Experience shows otherwise, and it teaches one never to quit.

4.  Continuous sparring, which also has the advantage of promoting the "never say die" attitude.  All hits are scored or aknowledged, but without a pause in the action.

5.  Alternating the above training, and giving the students the reasons for the different methods.

Regards,

Steve Scott


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## Rich Parsons

> _Originally posted by hardheadjarhead _
> *There are many ways to run the sparring, here are some ideas:
> 
> 3.  Do like the SCA folks and have incapaciting shots, with the fighter switching the blade to the undamaged hand, fighting from his knee, not using the limb damaged, whatever.  Some argue that this would never happen in reality.  Experience shows otherwise, and it teaches one never to quit.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Steve Scott *



In a real conflict with multiple opponents I was able to parry the first two attackers, (* Always wanted a third hand *) the third one conencted in the face. He aimed for the nose (* Large target for me *) I moved what I could and he hit me in the right eye. The eye crossed. I knew if I went down I was done for and woudl most likely not get up again ever. So, I closed the right eye and continued with the fight.

Just one of my data points
:asian:


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## hardheadjarhead

At Barnes and Noble they now have a book on Medal of Honor heroes that details their exploits.  It looks like they list only the ones that lived...not the posthumous accounts.

One took a bullet right below the nose and went on to kill three men in a machine gun crew before losing consciousness.  He was maimed, and lost the sight in his left eye.  He lost his recollection of the incident as well.

I read an account of a guy who had his arm chopped off by a katana wielding officer in WWII...the guy shot the officer (I think) and then led a counter attack while wielding the katana.  He kept fighting until he died of blood loss.  I haven't been able to confirm this story, but I've heard others like it.

Point:  One can fight while badly hurt.  One must commit oneself to doing that...not commit oneself to GETTING hurt, but to keep going should that happen.  Some people fold when they get little "owies".

Good story, Rich.  Illustrates the point I was making.  What happened after that?  

Regards,

Steve Scott


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## Rich Parsons

> _Originally posted by hardheadjarhead _
> *. . .
> Good story, Rich.  Illustrates the point I was making.  What happened after that?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Steve Scott *



It was not very glorious.

A little up front information. There were about twenty guys and five girls. The girls had the pitbulls and Dobermen on leashes. Most of the guys were just cheering. It looked to be an initiation for a few of them. Did, I tell you that all the guys had shaved heads and tattos of Swastika's et al and wearing BDU's and combat boots. As three of the guys were being psych'd up by a leader type, I check to see what the girls were going to do with the dogs. Oh By the way did I tell you, the place they were assulting was a young teen hang out for bands to play from 7:00 PM to 10:00 PM. Nice of them to avoid the real bars with real men in them. I was running the door down the alley and my Friend owned and operated the Teen Place. The three initiates and the leader, started slamming up agianst the two guys ot the door. I checked for the dogs. The guys went down. One then Two. I jumped in and stoped them from stomping them more than once or twice. Then they used the same tactics againts me. I was able to keep them at bay until I was up against the wall and was able to parry the first and trap, then the second punches as well and I was able to pass, and he grabbed. I was tied up. The leader type jumped over top as I was trynig to bash these two together. I saw it coming he hit me in the eye, as I kicked him in the grown. He went down, I was able to clear the other two, and then deal with the other, by passing and hitting. Then all three lunged for me again. I had moved away from the door and over by the downed guys to stop the free ones from kicking them. As all three lunged at me I stepped back to handle/absorb the weight. I stepped on one of the guys foot. I went down. Mind you I knew I was in trouble.  I was in the door frame. The three stepped back and the leader jumped in to land on top of me. I absobed him with my feet and legs, I held him up with the left and kicked with the right into the ribs. The teens behind me were screaming get up. They finally cleared the downed guys.  I knew I could not get up with out taking a hit or kick I knew I did not want to take. The guy jumped off me and tried to kick me with his steel toed shoes.  I did heel kicks to check as many as I could and as I did this he jumped back on top of me. I held him at bay again with my legs. This continued for about two minutes. (* Long Fight, I never thought it would end  *) When the last time he was on top of my legs, the crowd behind me started hitting him with brooms and pipes and microphone stands, what ever they could get their hands on. As I kicked him off me and he stepped back, I rolled back and kicked the door closed. I stood up, opened the door and then jumped outside. My Plan was to really hurt this guy. I was tired of him. Well they had run back to their vehicles, and started to leave. I guess at the same time I kicked him back an off duty cop had  come around the side of the building from a bank. I then went and put ice on my eye. The whole time I only used one eye to fight/survive with.

The Real kicker, was I was covering the door for a friend while he went deer hunting. The next monday with an black and blue and yellow and purple, all closed up, I went to work. Not one of those engineers understood why I jumper in and did not run away to protect myself. I could not just stand there or run away while those guys (* Never did get their names *) on the ground were in Danger.

So nothing reall rambo, nothing real cool, nothing real flashy. I was just trying to stay alive and stop them from killing someone else.

I got paid a beer and a shirt and about $55 for the night. Somehow the pay for risk just not add up anymore 

With Respect
:asian:


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## hardheadjarhead

A beer, a t-shirt, $55.00 and a lot of experience...

Lucky the dogs weren't turned loose.  Given the size of the crowd, though, they might have gone after the skinheads, too.

Regards,

Steve Scott


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## Karazenpo

Arnisador, the quote by the  knife expert you posted is great advice. I agree there is no real defense against a blade. However, this is how I handle it and I've posted this before. The Calibre Press (Dennis Anderson & Charles Remsberg) have been giving officer survival seminars since the 80's. They have also written books. Their technical advisor to edged weapons was Dan Inosanto. A film was also made called 'Surviving Edged Weapons'. Their staff put five years of research on police and civillians who have sirvived edged weapon attacks and they came to the conclusion that those that did survived by grabbing and securing the assailants knife weilding arm. They came up with an acronym for it called G.U.N.-Grab, Undo & Neutralize. No specific techgniques were given, just this concept. Since it was founded on documented survivals of real life siutations and are taught to law enforcement and military personnel I base my edged weapon program on this. Also, they state there is a 90 per cent or BETTER chance that you will be cut even in successful disarms. I have used this twice in my carreer in law enforcement successfully but the subjects were not skilled with the knife (although an unskilled assailant can easily do you in also!).

Respectfully Submitted.


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## arnisador

Basing it on things that have really worked makes a lot of sense to me. As someone else said, look at George Harrison--he was stabbed what, 5 times, and still disarmed his assailant? It can be done, and it isn't fancy.

I think Hock Hocheim gives similar advice, referring to it as "both hands on the wheel"--grab that arm and control it.


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## IMAA

Be prepared 
quote: Originally posted by GouRonin 

I like to carry 3 knives. One for me. The second for me in case I lose the first one, and a 3rd for a friend or to leave on the body.  


Where have I head that before? I know that qoute.

Tony


   Well once upon a time in a hotel room in Chicago Illinois thier was 2 talented FMA.  One was named Dan Inosanto and one was named Chris Sayoc.  They decided to go out for an evening on the town after doing a seminar.   As Tuhon Sayoc was getting ready to go out, he was placing on his harness that displayed several knives.  The other young man, named Guro Dan Inosanto began to chuckle and said, " why do you need all those knives?"  Tuhon Replied.  "Well in a city like chicago you never know what will happen.  This knife is for me, This knife is for you, this knife is for the attacker and this knife is for the dead body"... 

Haha Tony this is where I heard this saying at.  I heard it thru a buddy of mine who, evidently picked it up at a Dan Inosanto or Sayoc Kali seminar.  You know how they all stand around and B.S. afterwords...so Im sure this is where it came from....its amazing how things like this get around so quickly.

be well all


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## hardheadjarhead

Why would anyone want it to be public knowledge that they were carrying a "drop knife?"  That could really come back and bite you in a criminal investigation/trial.  

Regards,

Steve Scott


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## Guro_Jeff

> _Originally posted by IMAA _
> *
> 
> Well once upon a time in a hotel room in Chicago Illinois thier was 2 talented FMA.  One was named Dan Inosanto and one was named Chris Sayoc.  They decided to go out for an evening on the town after doing a seminar.   As Tuhon Sayoc was getting ready to go out, he was placing on his harness that displayed several knives.  The other young man, named Guro Dan Inosanto began to chuckle and said, " why do you need all those knives?"  Tuhon Replied.  "Well in a city like chicago you never know what will happen.  This knife is for me, This knife is for you, this knife is for the attacker and this knife is for the dead body"...
> 
> Haha Tony this is where I heard this saying at.  I heard it thru a buddy of mine who, evidently picked it up at a Dan Inosanto or Sayoc Kali seminar.  You know how they all stand around and B.S. afterwords...so Im sure this is where it came from....its amazing how things like this get around so quickly.
> 
> *



As in all things in life, tall tales and myths abound. One thing we need to be sure of are the quotes attributed to people.

For the record, Tuhon Chris has NEVER taught a public seminar in Chicago. And Tuhon Chris Sayoc would NEVER publically make a statement as that above.

The statement is slanderous, and while I know that no malice was intended, I ask that people please refrain from attributing quotes to the Sayoc crowd, unless they can verify their statements.

Thanks in advance, Guro Jeff of Sayoc Kali.


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## IMAA

It is true that it was not meant to be a Malice Attack on Tuhon Sayoc nor Titto Inosanto for I have the upmost respect for them, I appologize if it came off as such.....I know I meant to add that, the whole thing was heresay of course, but failed to apply that as it was too late to re-edit the message.....  I honestly didn't want it to be taken or  meant in that manner as a truthful statement.   I should of easily refrained from even using names in this post.  Again I appologize no harm intended.  As I was just reading the post of the guy that mentioned that whole phrase and the next person asked where he had heard that before it kinda made me think of when I heard it and how it came about just between several of us standing around and someone started talking about that exact same topic, when you get all the ego's flying stuff tends to get messy.....of course this is how rumors come about....so I appologize once more for even carrying out such a remark it was in poor taste for me to add such a thing.  ....if it can be errased please do so.  

Again to all Sayoc and Inosanto members I appologize.

Have a great day...


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