# Once a black belt...



## girlbug2 (Jun 26, 2008)

..Always a black belt?

On another thread I was shocked into realizing that in some systems, it may be possible for one to lose a black belt, as in, have it taken away. Say it ain't so! :O How can this happen? Only under special circumstances, I hope..?

In Kenpo, my understanding was that once somebody was a black belt it was considered a forever thing. Yes, a person could cease training and go rusty, get out of shape, etc. but that in itself would not strip them of their rank. OTOH if they wanted to pick up again and train for the next level they would have some catching up to do of course. But taken away? It seems like sacriledge.

Please educate me about this! I don't ever want to "lose it" from whatever style I study.


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## Drac (Jun 26, 2008)

I for one have* NEVER* heard of such a thing......


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## exile (Jun 26, 2008)

Drac said:


> I for one have* NEVER* heard of such a thing......



Me neither. A black belt indicates a certain level of achievement. Assuming it was you, and not your identical twin or some ringer or whatever, who tested and earned the belt, taking the belt away is like saying that some documented series of events in the past, that everyone concerned agrees really did happen, is now hereby judged to be cancelled. It really is that absurd. 

The skills that earned 85 and 90 year old masters the 'hard physical test' dans that they earned in their thirties and forties are probably no longer there, for many of them. But no one takes away those dan ranks from these practitioners, even if they couldn't pass the same tests today that they did half a century earlier. Out of shape, out of practice, incapacitated or whatever, that belt is still _yours_, by right.


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## 7starmarc (Jun 26, 2008)

On one hand, no, I have never seen/heard of such a policy.

On the other, it kind of make sense. Let's face it, being a "black belt" should be more than a certificate and a piece of cloth around your waist. It should be a reflection of your (ongoing) dedication and discipline towards your art. If one has lapsed so far as to become very rusty and require remediation prior to resuming training at the appropriate level, then perhaps one really is not a "black belt" anymore.

Should this be policy? Should it require a re-earning of the black belt with all the ceremony that some styles put into it? Probably not. But if a student left for an extended period without good cause (i.e. injury) and returned at a significantly lower level than they left, I would agree that a return to lower level material would be warranted prior to progressing again. I'm not talking about a little rust, but a serious drop off in conditioning and technique/drills.


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## Drac (Jun 26, 2008)

7starmarc said:


> Let's face it, being a "black belt" should be more than a certificate and a piece of cloth around your waist. It should be a reflection of your (ongoing) dedication and discipline towards your art.


 
Bravo, Well said....


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## exile (Jun 26, 2008)

7starmarc said:


> Should this be policy? Should it require a re-earning of the black belt with all the ceremony that some styles put into it? Probably not. But if a student left for an extended period without good cause (i.e. injury) and returned at a significantly lower level than they left, I would agree that a return to lower level material would be warranted prior to progressing again.* I'm not talking about a little rust, but a serious drop off in conditioning and technique/drills.*



By this logic, we should be stripping sixth and seventh dans and higher of their black belts when they reach an age where they are no longer able to display that level of conditioning and technique. How about an advanced dan karateka or KMAist who's incapacitated by a wasting disease, by a heart condition, by emphysema or any manner of similar thing? That will result in as serious a dropping off in conditioning and technique as one could imagine, eh? Does anyone seriously think this is a good idea? Are we therefore going to require 'boards of inquiry' or some such nonsense to determine whether the 'drop off in conditioning and technique' is one due to factors beyond the practitioner's control (on the one hand), in which case they get to keep their belts, or due to slacking off (on the other), in which case their belts get taken away??

As you as you set up that kind of criterion for retention of a fairly earned belt, you're opening just this Pandora's box. Bad, bad idea, IMO.


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## Drac (Jun 26, 2008)

*OFF TOPIC POST  *exile, I must remind myself to get Father Greek to tell you the story of his former teacher who after 30 some years and a rank of 5 th Dan sent him a letter saying he was stripping him of his rank...Its a great story..*END OFF TOPIC POST....*


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## CuongNhuka (Jun 26, 2008)

In Coung Nhu when you start you are a White Belt. If you're a Black Belt in another style, that is an acomplishment, but it holds no weight here. But, it is possible to lose your black belt. Sorta.
A few years ago there was a guy that was at his test (the second in charge of the style was his tester). He had to do a whole bunch of free sparring, and asked his tester to a match. His phrasing apparently upset the Master, who promptly took his Black Belt away. Well, he had basicly his test, but hadn't been given his new belt, but you get the idea. 

So, if you're ever in a Cuong Nhu Black Belt Test, watch your phrasing if you want to sparr a Master.

Exile, I have a feeling that the rule 7Starmarc is talking about only aplies if you lose an unacceptable level of conditioning/technique.


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## harlan (Jun 26, 2008)

I'm reminded of the saying, 'I brought you into this world...and I can take you out of it!' 

Along with the idea of ranks, of earning some kind of recognition, and 'getting' that status symbol (and make no mistake...BB is STATUS in the popular mind) should also come a sense of obligation. Somebody brought you this far with a certain mental map of what the desired product should be. It's what I consider to be an unspoken social contract...in some places it's tangible and in other dojos barely recognized. But the baseline obligation should, to my way of thinking, be a committment to continue training in that style, and do so in a manner that is acceptable to the sensei you are working with.

The minute you quit that dojo, or stop training in that style, or comport yourself in such a way as to bring embarrassment to your teachers, then you basically put the belt aside. You still have the skills, and you can even tie the belt around you and swagger all over town saying, 'Look at me...I'm a BB.' But unless you still retain your teachers acknowledgement that you are a student...you've devalued the belt to a status symbol. 

Whether or not one's teacher can be bothered to ask for it back.


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## jks9199 (Jun 26, 2008)

It's not possible to take the knowledge and skill away.  It is possible to strip a person of the association's recognition or sanction of that rank.  The belt itself is meaningless except to those who know the criteria of that instructor or system.


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## harlan (Jun 26, 2008)

Personally, I don't think a belt has any inherent value or meaning, but as a symbol is has lots of meanings and there are different depending on who is involved; there is no denying the cult of mystique that has been perpetuated with the belt system.


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## bowser666 (Jun 26, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> It's not possible to take the knowledge and skill away.  It is possible to strip a person of the association's recognition or sanction of that rank.  The belt itself is meaningless except to those who know the criteria of that instructor or system.



I disagree.  The belt has meaning,  to the person that earned it!  It is ridiculous to take away some ones Black Belt.  The only way I could see that , is if a Association decides to take away credit because a member committed a heinous act etc....  and wishes to break all ties. To simply take a belt away because they are out of shape, practice, whatever is stupid.  It is in the students best interest to keep up on their studies if that is what they wish. If they leave and take a break , then come back it will be that much more time and difficulty to get back up to speed. You also need to mention that there could be extraneous circumstances as well.   A person starts a family , doesnt have time or money to train anymore,  or gets in a car accident and loses their legs.  Does that mean take away their black belt because they can't perform their art anymore?  Listen to that and then you will see how ridiculous taking belts away sounds.

P.S. I do understand what you mean by no meaning , if outside a different organization, or style etc...  I was elaborating more on another point.


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## terryl965 (Jun 26, 2008)

Yes some orgs. hold the right for you to claim you are with them, but the thing is taken away a BB does not take away the years of training and knowledge that came from it. People may quite and get rusty but the knowlwdge remains with them. I beleive skill will deminish over time for everybody but that is based on each undividual body and how well it is maintained. But one mind never goes except for altimez :rofl:. I really feel sorry for people that believe people can take away knowledge.


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## Kacey (Jun 26, 2008)

Have I heard of people having their rank stripped?  Yes - and I'm not talking about starting a different style as a white belt (that's a different issue - if I started another style, I'd start as a white belt, 21 years of TKD notwithstanding), I know of students who have had their rank repudiated by the organization that granted it - usually for heinous crimes, such as child molestation - symbolic, but it meant the persons in question could no longer teach as a member of that organization, which was more meaningful.  I also know of students who misplaced their belts and had to retest to get them back (an issue of respect for the giver rather the belt itself - a belt is a piece of cotton), and students who have seriously infringed upon the rules of the dojang who were demoted, for lesser offenses, generally as the culmination of other attempts to modify their behavior.  I even know of one organization that included in its Policy and Procedure manual how to demote a VII Dan... a concept I have a hard time getting my mind around. 

That being said, however - a belt is a _symbol_, it is not the rank itself, nor is it the knowledge and experience necessary to attain the rank.  You cannot reach into someone's head and magically remove the knowledge and experience the person has earned, no matter your opinion of them as a person or the person's actions.  Black belts who have been out of training for some time (reason generally not relevant - life happens) should, IMHO, retain their rank, but it will generally take them longer than other students of similar physical ability and experience to regain what they've lost, should they ever wish to test again.  Depending on the time lapse and the rank, the same can hold true for color belts.  In either case, they must come back up to the standard they were at _before_ leaving (or as close as is physically possible) before beginning to work on new material.

I've had students who were color belts with long lapses; I had one who was a 1st gup high red belt when life forced him to quit, who, when offered a choice, chose to come back as a 10th gup white belt and work his way back up; I had another who had been a 2nd gup red belt who, when offered a choice, chose to come back as a 2nd gup red belt... guess which one made it to black belt?  The first one.... although, in all fairness, it wasn't the second one's fault; he was deployed to Iraq, and when he (thankfully) came home, he was assigned to a different location and couldn't make it to class.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 26, 2008)

Drac said:


> *OFF TOPIC POST *exile, I must remind myself to get Father Greek to tell you the story of his former teacher who after 30 some years and a rank of 5 th Dan sent him a letter saying he was stripping him of his rank...Its a great story..*END OFF TOPIC POST....*


 
I'd like to hear that story...


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## exile (Jun 26, 2008)

Flying Crane said:


> I'd like to hear that story...



Ditto... double ditto!


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## Flying Crane (Jun 26, 2008)

When I was in junior high and high school in the mid 1980s I began training in Tracy kenpo and earned my shodan.

As the years went by, I driften away from kenpo and into other arts like capoeira and kung fu.  

A couple years ago I decided to reconnect with my roots, and I found a Tracy kenpo teacher in the area where I now live.  I tried to put on a white belt and start over, but he wouldn't allow it.  He felt that once earned, it is forever.  

However, I did start over with him in that I have been relearning everything from the ground up.  I will also go thru the shodan test with a couple other students, when the time comes.  Only then will he consider me eligible to begin training the material for rank beyond shodan.  But in the mean time, he has recognized my rank that I earned about 20 years ago.

I do believe you can be ejected from an organization, and they would no longer recognize you as a member and such.  But this is not taking away your rank.  In fact, you could still truthfully state that you earned your rank while training under X instructor, as long as you are also truthful about the fact that you are no longer a member of that organization nor a student of X instructor, and they do not endorse you.


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## exile (Jun 26, 2008)

Kacey said:


> Black belts who have been out of training for some time (reason generally not relevant - life happens) should, IMHO, retain their rank, but it will generally take them longer than other students of similar physical ability and experience to regain what they've lost, should they ever wish to test again.  Depending on the time lapse and the rank, the same can hold true for color belts.  In either case, they must come back up to the standard they were at _before_ leaving (or as close as is physically possible) before beginning to work on new material.
> 
> I've had students who were color belts with long lapses; I had one who was a 1st gup high red belt when life forced him to quit, who, when offered a choice, chose to come back as a 10th gup white belt and work his way back up; I had another who had been a 2nd gup red belt who, when offered a choice, chose to come back as a 2nd gup red belt... guess which one made it to black belt?  The first one.... although, in all fairness, it wasn't the second one's fault; he was deployed to Iraq, and when he (thankfully) came home, he was assigned to a different location and couldn't make it to class.



That's how we do it in my school, and in every other school I know. 

It's not just rank within the school either. My instructor will let you wear your belt&#8212;black or color&#8212;whatever you've earned&#8212;if you're training with us. But to advance to the next round, you have to come up to the standard he expects his own students to be at, who've come up via the normal progression, before they test for the next one. His idea is, you earned it, you keep it, but the next one you earn has to satisfy _this_ school's skill and knowledge requirements... so you better get up to speed, or _back_ up to speed, if you want to test with us. This approach has always struck me as sound and fair, and most of the other people I know in the MAs work under something like the same system, with minor variations.

It's similar to an academic degree. Suppose you got a Ph.D. in physics, taught univesity for thirty years, and then retired... not an uncommon scenario, eh? :wink1: You stop going to conferences so much, maybe; you take more pleasure from the achievements of your students, grand-students and so on,  than from your own&#8212;you've _made_ your mark, you've handed the torch on to the future, in its young creative prime; but you still are a member of your field, honored by your peers for the knowledge you added and the results you obtained, and you still follow the avant-garde as it solves, or tries to solve, the problems your generation left open.

We're gonna say that this guy's Ph.D. should be taken away from him? Because he's falling increasingly far from the bleeding edge of the field?

I didn't think so... and I think it's no different with any BB, or any belt at all really, that you sweated to earn.


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## cdunn (Jun 26, 2008)

Rank in the martial arts is, unfortunately, an overloaded concept. The rankings get used to mark:

Competitive ability;
Technical execution ability;
Technical comprehension;
Teaching authority;
Time and effort invested;

And so on and so forth, but there is another, extremely, extremely important thing that granting the rank shows: Trust in the person bearing the rank. A black belt is held up as a visible and desirable example of what the system is trying to teach a person, and what learning those teachings do to you. And, in some fashion, those that are learning are trying to become a reflection of those that are teaching, and a reflection of those that have been taught. The organization that grants and supports a dan rank is doing so believes that the person recieving the rank displays the attributes it desires to see in a high ranked individual. And a dan rank is no more, nor no less, than the declaration that the individual recieving it is a reflection what the organization desires to create in a person.  

When you walk into a school, seeking out a person to teach you, you are placing your trust in them to achieve your goals, and if your goal is self defense, you may well be trusting this person with your very life. His or her rank, amoung all the other things, is a signal to you, the new student, that someone else trusts in him too. Even that half-blind, octagenarian 8th dan still has the trust of his organization - His role has changed as he got older, but the trust is there.

Can you take away a person's skills, and what he's learned? No. Can a person violate the trust that his ranking is based upon, and thereby, have his rank stripped from him? Absolutely. Does each organization need to have its own guidelines as to what the parameters of that trust are? Absolutely. Your rank is for your organization. Your skills are for you.


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## stone_dragone (Jun 26, 2008)

The presentation of a belt/rank certificate/etc to a student from an instructor is a milestone marking the particular achievement of a specific standard at a certain point in time, in the same manner as a high school diploma.

Although I can no longer remember how to do a five-step proof in planar geometry, remember Ceasar's eulogy or even apply the circle of fifths to establish a key signature for a piece of sheet music, I am still a high school graduate.  

If I spend the next three weeks watching "Beavis and Butthead" and forget my name and address, I am still a high school graduate.  

If I get fat, lazy, and stop practicing I'll still be a black belt.  I'd be a black belt who got his *** kicked by a white belt, but I'll still be a black belt...whatever that's worth.

my .02


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## tellner (Jun 26, 2008)

I've seen it happen way too many times. Usually it's over the sort of stupid politics and immaturity that characterizes most martial arts organizations. It's particularly common when one guy is in charge of a style and has sole authority over credentials. Teacher and student have a falling out. The teacher de-ranks the student usually with denials that the student ever really learned much of anything. 

It's particularly common in Filipino and Indonesian martial arts although I've seen it in various styles of Kenpo and Kajukenbo as well as Chinese MA and even Japanese koryu. These days some teaching certificates come with an expiration date. If you don't renew (and keep on the Head Guy's good side, and keep paying, and know what to kiss and when) you are no longer an instructor after a certain amount of time. If your teacher breaks with the organization you are given the choice of completely abandoning him or being cast into outer darkness.

So no. It's not uncommon. These days it seems like it's barely unusual.


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## 7starmarc (Jun 26, 2008)

I guess some of my response comes from my medical background, as well. You've got a M.D., great, congratulations. You still get to take further tests to get licensed to practice medicine. After you get that license, you still have to maintain a certain standard of practice and continuing education to maintain your license to practice in an ongoing fashion.

Will you ever be stripped of your M.D.? Probably never.

Will you ever be stopped from legally practicing medicine? You bet, if your skills and knowledge are not kept up to snuff.

Would you be eligible for further training (e.g. fellowships)? Probably, although you must demonstrate that your skills and knowledge provide a sufficient basis for further specialty training.

I stated that I did not believe that such a drop off meritted stripping rank or requirement of re-certification. I did state that if a black belt did not keep skills current, then they could rightfully be required to remediate prior to further rank progression.

In the case of the 80 year old 7th dan or the 40 year old 1st dan with emphysema, no, I would not expect them to be stripped of rank. Also, I would not expect them to be eligible from further ranks,  unless they could meet the standards of the next rank.


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## Phoenix44 (Jun 26, 2008)

> The only way I could see that , is if a Association decides to take away credit because a member committed a heinous act etc.... and wishes to break all ties.


 
Yes, this is the only way I've heard of this.


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## girlbug2 (Jun 26, 2008)

stone_dragone said:


> If I spend the next three weeks watching "Beavis and Butthead" and forget my name and address, I am still a high school graduate.
> 
> my .02


 
Too close to home for me..


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## girlbug2 (Jun 26, 2008)

exile said:


> Ditto... double ditto!


 
Me three! Tell us Drac. It is Not off-topic.


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## exile (Jun 26, 2008)

7starmarc said:


> I guess some of my response comes from my medical background, as well. You've got a M.D., great, congratulations. You still get to take further tests to get licensed to practice medicine. After you get that license, you still have to maintain a certain standard of practice and continuing education to maintain your license to practice in an ongoing fashion.
> 
> Will you ever be stripped of your M.D.? Probably never.
> 
> ...



Yes, those are the two sides of the issue. The difference between the MD and the Ph.D. in these cases is informative: the Ph.D. as a credential indicates that the field recognizes the qualifications of the awardee to conduct independent research which adds new knowledge to the field. The M.D. as a professional degree certifies the medical competence of the practitioner to treat patients for illness. A Ph.D. who gets the wrong answer will at worst mislead future researchers; an M.D. who gets the wrong answer can cost a patient his or her life. 

I see belt rank as being more like the Ph.D. degree: it marks a certain level of research achievement. But an out-of-condition BB who has not kept up with the art should not be in the position of judging and promoting more junior practitioners;  in the worst case, his or her high-water mark of a decade or more ago doesn't qualify him or her to deal with _current_ clients and students past a certain level of advancement. The latter situation is where the comparison with the M.D., rather than the Ph.D., seems more apt. 

My concern is the kind of situation that *Tellner* was referring tothe vulnerability of practitioners to nasty MA association or school-network politics. This is a place where pettiness often runs out of control, and MAists who've put in the sweat equity to earn their belts should be protected from the fallout from that sort of political viciousness.


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## 7starmarc (Jun 26, 2008)

exile said:


> My concern is the kind of situation that *Tellner* was referring tothe vulnerability of practitioners to nasty MA association or school-network politics. This is a place where pettiness often runs out of control, and MAists who've put in the sweat equity to earn their belts should be protected from the fallout from that sort of political viciousness.


 
I couldn't agree more.


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## Father Greek (Jun 26, 2008)

First of all I believe most of you are missing an important point. Becoming a Black Belt is not just the physical aspect but is also the mental. BB is a state of mind and being. It is how you tackle things in every day life and not just the Dojo. It is how you approach learning and teaching others. When you look at the number of students that begin MA and the number that last to BB and beyond,you must realize that it is something more than special. You can never take that away from someone. If someone has lost some of their skills through the years, that does not diminish their ability to judge others nor does it prevent them from teaching the skills that they once had. After 38 years in MA, I can no longer side kick above my head. Does this make me any less of a judge of others skills?

As for the story of being stripped of rank:
After 20 years with my instructor we had a personal falling out. About 9 years later after building a succesful program through a local community center, My old instructor sent a letter to the center saying that I had not obtained the rank that I claimed and that I was not even an Instructor. Luckily I had proof to the contrary and everything was Ok. EOS.

The thing is, that his pettiness wound up hurting him in the longrun. Instead of saying Look at what one of my former students has done, he chose to take the low road. One never knows what the true story of a situation is until he has heard all three sides.

To end this mess, each BB must be judged by only the people that He/She influences on a daily basis.

End of rant!


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## Drac (Jun 26, 2008)

Flying Crane said:


> I'd like to hear that story...


 


exile said:


> Ditto... double ditto!


 


			
				girlbug2 said:
			
		

> Me three! Tell us Drac. It is Not off-topic


 
He told it, see post #28...Its not as funny in the printed word, but the letter he got is funnier than you can imagine....If you knew his former instructor you would undestand..


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## Deaf Smith (Jun 26, 2008)

The United States Marine Corps has the saying, "Once a Marine, always a Marine", but the Marine Corps is far more than just a black belt. It's the comradeship, teamwork, displine, and drive they have that pulls them together, far more than just getting ones black belt.

It's a much different thing. Us black belts didn't storm Iwo Jima. We didn't stand at the Chosin Reservoir and 100,000 Chineese trying to destory us, with Chesty as our leader (having been the same leader on Guadalcanal, Bloody Nose Ridge.) We didn't go to the Barbary coast to save Eden Pedecaris. Their traditions are miles above us. Paid in blood.

Now I'm proud to be a black belt, but 'once a black belt....' has no meaning to me.

Deaf


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## Pacificshore (Jun 26, 2008)

I don't know of any actual stripping of one's BB, but have heard stories of BB's and the head instructor having a falling out, and getting "stripped" of their belt, but more in a way to say they are no longer part of their family tree, club, association, etc.  This would also apply to those students that choose to follow the denounced BB out the door.


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## Father Greek (Jun 26, 2008)

I feel sorry for you that you do not feel about your BB like you do about the Marines. If you think about it our traaditions go back much farther than the Corps. We as martial artists train others so they can defend themselves and their families. What is more noble than that other than defending your country. As MAists who among us has not trained hurt and in pain and as instructors who among us has not gone above and beyond to help another person get through some sort of struggle. I say stand tall and be proud of your accomplishments whether in the *MARTIAL ARTS OR THE MILITARY ARTS.*


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## Fiendlover (Jun 26, 2008)

girlbug2 said:


> ..Always a black belt?
> 
> On another thread I was shocked into realizing that in some systems, it may be possible for one to lose a black belt, as in, have it taken away. Say it ain't so! :O How can this happen? Only under special circumstances, I hope..?
> 
> ...


 
In my style you can lose your belt temporarily.  I've never heard of a black belt's belt being taken away but usually it's an incentive to get kids to behave at home, with there parents, studies, other classmates, etc.  I've never seen an adult's belt get taken away for what they do outside of the studio is there own buisness but if it's serious such as a black belt pounding unmercifully on a white belt then there is punishment such as a public apology and maybe a possible belt detainment.  But like I said I only think it's for the kids.


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## tellner (Jun 26, 2008)

7starmarc said:


> I guess some of my response comes from my medical background, as well. You've got a M.D., great, congratulations. You still get to take further tests to get licensed to practice medicine. After you get that license, you still have to maintain a certain standard of practice and continuing education to maintain your license to practice in an ongoing fashion.


That's just it. Medicine is a profession with real standards involving a vital service. It's in the public eye and has objective standards for accreditation. The accreditation process for schools is standard as is board certification. Since human bodies and the technologies to diagnose and treat them are pretty much the same everywhere it's straightforward to do this. Also, real human lives are at stake all the time. Patient comfort is important, but getting certain real-world results is the real issue.

Martial arts is nothing of the sort. The MA world is largely built around brand loyalty and personal loyalty. It's the image and mystique as much as anything else. That leads to cults of personality and the elevation of personal issues to core concerns. Under such conditions it is almost inevitable that likes and dislikes and the power to grant or deny status will be important. That means, of course, the power to take them away. 

The AMA can vote in new directors. A State Board of Regents can replace medical school faculty. Congress has gotten involved when the process had to be corrected. There are sources of correction and feedback and ways of keeping the profession on an even keel. This is not the case in a martial arts association. And I'm not sure how it could be unless we went the government certification route or most students suddenly had to make the training work in life or death situations all the time. 

What is a black belt after all? It's a license to teach, but it's also about status, hopes and dreams. Combine the two, and personalities will rule as often as not. 



> Will you ever be stripped of your M.D.? Probably never.
> 
> Will you ever be stopped from legally practicing medicine? You bet, if your skills and knowledge are not kept up to snuff.
> 
> Would you be eligible for further training (e.g. fellowships)? Probably, although you must demonstrate that your skills and knowledge provide a sufficient basis for further specialty training.


Think of it this way. Suppose you got a degree fifty years ago. No matter how reprehensible you were later or if you never cracked a textbook again you would still be Joe Blow MSc. You might not be current on the state of the field, but there's no denying that you earned the degree and can put it on your resume. What goes on in the martial arts world is more like saying "You know that diploma we gave you? We don't like you anymore, so we're taking it back," or "You have to pay us a fee every year or it goes away." 



> I stated that I did not believe that such a drop off meritted stripping rank or requirement of re-certification. I did state that if a black belt did not keep skills current, then they could rightfully be required to remediate prior to further rank progression.


That's very reasonable. Some martial arts work that way. To become a Godan in Judo you have to pass certain tests and win a certain number of tournament bouts. If you can't, you have to wait until you can. In Kendo the hachidans really are good enough to beat pretty much everyone at the levels below them. A BJJ black belt has to be better than the brown belts and hold his own rolling with the black belts. After that the number of stripes really doesn't matter. That's part of the standard. 



> In the case of the 80 year old 7th dan or the 40 year old 1st dan with emphysema, no, I would not expect them to be stripped of rank. Also, I would not expect them to be eligible from further ranks,  unless they could meet the standards of the next rank.


There's something else at work here. In most martial arts, after a certain point ranks are honorary. There's a certain degree of rank which comes from passing tests and being able to win fights with people. Past that they're understood to be for less concrete but theoretically important contributions to the style. The difference between eighth, ninth and tenth dan in Judo is a matter of perception and institutional regard. The Ancient and Venerable Fossils with the really fancy sashes are all at a certain minimum level. The extra flourishes and funny hats are just icing on the already-baked cake.


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## Fiendlover (Jun 26, 2008)

Father Greek said:


> I feel sorry for you that you do not feel about your BB like you do about the Marines. If you think about it our traaditions go back much farther than the Corps. We as martial artists train others so they can defend themselves and their families. What is more noble than that other than defending your country. As MAists who among us has not trained hurt and in pain and as instructors who among us has not gone above and beyond to help another person get through some sort of struggle. I say stand tall and be proud of your accomplishments whether in the *MARTIAL ARTS OR THE MILITARY ARTS.*


I agree


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## Perpetual White Belt (Jun 26, 2008)

Father Greek said:


> As for the story of being stripped of rank:
> After 20 years with my instructor we had a personal falling out. About 9 years later after building a succesful program through a local community center, My old instructor sent a letter to the center saying that I had not obtained the rank that I claimed and that I was not even an Instructor. Luckily I had proof to the contrary and everything was Ok. EOS.


 
Hot Damn!  I have that same story down to the letter!!  The number of years and rank are different, but most everything else is the same!!!


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## 7starmarc (Jun 27, 2008)

tellner said:


> There's something else at work here. In most martial arts, after a certain point ranks are honorary. There's a certain degree of rank which comes from passing tests and being able to win fights with people. Past that they're understood to be for less concrete but theoretically important contributions to the style. The difference between eighth, ninth and tenth dan in Judo is a matter of perception and institutional regard. The Ancient and Venerable Fossils with the really fancy sashes are all at a certain minimum level. The extra flourishes and funny hats are just icing on the already-baked cake.


 
But that's part of the point. If that 80 year old 7th Dan is able to meet the requirements of progression -- whether physical, spiritual, political or academic -- then, of course, he has earned the next rank. This would probably assume that he has remained engaged in the style as practitioner, teacher, promoter, author, etc. There is no conflict here. If that same person has "retired" and no longer engages in the above activities to advance the style and his mastery, that is a different story.

I realize the parallels to the medical world are not direct, but also realize that there are more politics and personality issues than you might like to think in the leadership of the medical communities.


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## morph4me (Jun 27, 2008)

We've had people who have earned a particular rank, then leave the association, and then come back. We have them wear the belt of a lower rank and attend classes, as we evaluate their current level of skill they are allowed to wear the rank that corresponds to that level without further testing until they are wearing their previous rank. It usually doesn't take more than a fwe weeks or months, depending on how long they've been gone and what they remember.


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## MJS (Jun 27, 2008)

girlbug2 said:


> ..Always a black belt?
> 
> On another thread I was shocked into realizing that in some systems, it may be possible for one to lose a black belt, as in, have it taken away. Say it ain't so! :O How can this happen? Only under special circumstances, I hope..?
> 
> ...


 
Has this ever happened?  Don't know, but its possible.  Its possible if someone has a falling out with their teacher, does something that reflects badly against the school, etc., but I'd say at the most, they just would no longer be recognized as a BB at that particular school.  I've earned my rank, so if I were to leave a school and they no longer wanted to acknowledge my rank, fine, but I'm still the rank I am.


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## harlan (Jun 27, 2008)

When I first started, my teacher said, "It takes about 3 years before I trust someone. Coincidentally, that happens to be around the time most folks get to a certain point in their training.' Considering the whole stickiness of this kind of situation, that comment comes back to me with a whole new understanding.


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## MJS (Jun 27, 2008)

Flying Crane said:


> When I was in junior high and high school in the mid 1980s I began training in Tracy kenpo and earned my shodan.
> 
> As the years went by, I driften away from kenpo and into other arts like capoeira and kung fu.
> 
> ...


 
Very similar to what happened to me.  I left my last school (Parker system) mostly due to work and not being able to get there.  I joined another school, (Tracy) and began working my way thru the material.  My current instructor told me to continue to wear my 3rd degree Black Belt.  Once I complete the material, I too, will also be put thru a private test.  Won't be anything like someone going thru the test for the first time, but mostly to put me thru the paces and show the material.  From that point, I'll still continue my journey, learning the new material.

What I thought was really nice and was quite a surprise was when I went for the first class.  Keep in mind I've been training there now for well over a year, so obviously this was a while back.  When it was time to line up for the start of class, I was told to line up in the front, with the rest of the Black Belts that were teaching the class.  I felt a bit odd at first, but they welcomed me into their family and respected the fact that I had already put in years to earn my belt.


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## YoungMan (Jun 27, 2008)

Yes, you can be stripped of your rank. If you have committed extreme acts of disrespect or have grossly dishonored Taekwondo or your organization, the person who issued your rank to you can revoke it.
Your skills cannot be revoked. That is understood. However, the official recognition that you receives as an X Dan by members of your organization as well as whatever organizations recognize your rank can be withdrawn. You cannot teach (with any authorization), judge, officiate, or guide organization policies. Furthermore, the issuing instructor would most likely contact other organizations and tell them "Such and such is no longer recognized as an X Dan member of my organization."


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## Twin Fist (Jun 27, 2008)

Reading the story about the guys instructor calling up the ymca and telling them "he isnt a black belt" the word that comes to my mind is "petty"

In the most important sense of the word no one can ever take your belt away. The Belt is knowledge, and they cant take that away from you.


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## IcemanSK (Jun 27, 2008)

I'm not trying to be incensitive to the folks for whom this has happened due to the pettiness or whim of their instructor. As far as anyone who looses their rank due to some henious act, it is as it should be. 

But I've got to ask the question, is there a rash of folks getting stripped of their ranks that I just haven't heard about? Does this really happen often? Even if someone looses their rank because of the whim or a falling out with their instructor, they can redeem that rank on their own merit, somehow. Since the skill cannot be taken away, surely competence can be proven. If the skills can no longer be proven due to age or disability, the past achievements & contribution to the Art is still recognized.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 27, 2008)

girlbug2 said:


> ..Always a black belt?
> 
> On another thread I was shocked into realizing that in some systems, it may be possible for one to lose a black belt, as in, have it taken away. Say it ain't so! :O How can this happen? Only under special circumstances, I hope..?
> 
> ...


At our school, I have seen students with attitude issues be told to shape up or they would 'lose' their belts.  These have been kids who's attitudes suddenly improve; the idea of losing that belt was enough to jar them into behaving, no pushups necessary.  

I have seen one adult student expelled from the school.  He was not stripped of rank, however, simply told not to come back.  

A black belt itself is less of an issue; it is the _rank_ that counts.  A major who is busted down to captain (if I have my military rank progression right) doesn't lose his purple heart, silver star, or any awards for marksmanship.  His war record isn't altered.  He simply loses some of the administrative authority and command responsibility that he had been awarded.  His combat skill and knowledge of the military arts remain the same.

By the same token, a dan rank practitioner who either commits a serious crime (as mentioned earlier in the thread), damages the integrity of the school or organization through either dishonorable conduct or some other way, should certainly lose his or her rank within the organization.  Yes, he or she will still have their cotton belt and certificate hanging on the wall.  But a school or organization can and _should_ police its membership.

I think that in a case of severe rust (not due to injury or illness), rather than losing rank, the student, upon return could simply be asked not to _display_ his or her rank until they've brought their skills up to a level comensurate with that rank.  This spares the student a level of embarrassment; a blackbelt who cannot keep up with a blue belt would be embarrassed.  But the student is displaying a green belt, then he or she can take their time, renew their skills, and then be permited to wear the rank again.  This may not take all that long; generally, a rusty student can get back into the grove very quickly.

With practitioners who suffer from a debilitating injury, severe illness, or simply are aged, I think that organizations and schools simply accept (as they should) that things happen sometimes that prevent people from using the skills that they had learned, but that the practitioner still is a reservior of knowledge and experience and will always be a valueable asset to the art.  

Nobody expects an eighty seven year old master to be able to mop up a fifth dan forty year old at the top of their game in sparring or to be as crisp and solid when performing poomsae/hyung/kata.  But that eighty seven year old master can impart a great deal of knowledge to the forty year old and very likely provide him or her with some of the keys needed to reaching the next level in their own training.  

Many of the most valueable lessons that have been imparted to me by my masters have been through the imparting of knowledge, not through advanced drills.  It is the knowledge has enabled me to get to the next level in my training, not just the physical drills.

Daniel


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## tellner (Jun 27, 2008)

IcemanSK said:


> But I've got to ask the question, is there a rash of folks getting stripped of their ranks that I just haven't heard about? Does this really happen often? Even if someone looses their rank because of the whim or a falling out with their instructor, they can redeem that rank on their own merit, somehow. Since the skill cannot be taken away, surely competence can be proven. If the skills can no longer be proven due to age or disability, the past achievements & contribution to the Art is still recognized.



ISK, it happens more often than you believe. It's not a "rash". In some circles it's Standard Operating Procedure. FMA and IMA teachers are particularly prone to it. It isn't hard come up with a dozen prominent ones who almost routinely throw away many of their senior students. It generally comes with denials that they were ever certified or even trained with the instructor for any length of time. One friend of mine was actually crudely photoshopped out of old pictures. 

When I was in a well known sub-branch of the Kenpo family there was a couple instances where teachers and high-ranking students had issues. The students were de-ranked, sometimes in humiliating public fashion and written out of history.

The Korean government never told General Choi that he had never studied Tae Kwon Do or been involved. But he went from "honored founder" to just one of many whose only accomplishment was coming up with the name. It was a matter of petty politics at the national level. 

Or there's a local case of the Kendo teacher who founded a club thirty years ago. He was Shodan and was given Godan in Japan. Certificates, tests, whole nine yards. He's been active and can whip tournament champions half his age like they had a tail. But with changing political winds he's been asked to "re test" so that they can be sure his rank is "legitimate". His isn't the only case. 

Skill and understanding remain. I suppose a person could "redeem their rank back" by humbly begging forgiveness and promising to do whatever the teacher wanted in order to be allowed to bask in the glory of the Organization again. Or he could polish his MA resume and spend years somewhere else getting the same rank from someone else. 

That's not the point. It's the calculated insult of saying "What we gave you? What you spent years working towards? We're taking it away and pretending it never happened. If you grovel we might give it back. Or you can go do the same thing somewhere else. Maybe they'll give you credit for time served." That's the sort of thing that isn't made all better if you recite the dojo kun a few times and resolve to strive hard and selflessly for the unity of style and the glory of Lower Slobbovian Martial Culture.


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## karate-dragon (Jun 27, 2008)

I have heard of instructors who have used it as threats and I don't get it - it seems to be a controlling thing used by an abusive crazy instructor. Here's another one - a "waiting" period after you test for a year or two as a trial even though you received the rank?? To me this just seems like a crazy controlling thing.


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## IcemanSK (Jun 27, 2008)

tellner said:


> ISK, it happens more often than you believe. It's not a "rash". In some circles it's Standard Operating Procedure. FMA and IMA teachers are particularly prone to it. It isn't hard come up with a dozen prominent ones who almost routinely throw away many of their senior students. It generally comes with denials that they were ever certified or even trained with the instructor for any length of time. One friend of mine was actually crudely photoshopped out of old pictures.
> 
> When I was in a well known sub-branch of the Kenpo family there was a couple instances where teachers and high-ranking students had issues. The students were de-ranked, sometimes in humiliating public fashion and written out of history.
> 
> ...


 

Your point is well taken, Tellner. :asian:


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## exile (Jun 27, 2008)

tellner said:


> Skill and understanding remain...[But] that's not the point. *It's the calculated insult *of saying "What we gave you? What you spent years working towards? We're taking it away and pretending it never happened. If you grovel we might give it back. Or you can go do the same thing somewhere else. Maybe they'll give you credit for time served." That's the sort of thing that isn't made all better if you recite the dojo kun a few times and resolve to strive hard and selflessly for the unity of style and the glory of Lower Slobbovian Martial Culture.





karate-dragon said:


> I have heard of instructors who have used it as threats and I don't get it - it seems to be a controlling thing used by an abusive crazy instructor.



These two statement zero on on what I think is the key issue. I would like to bet high that instances of (attempted) BB repossession on high minded grounds of moral deliquency or whatever are statistically drowned by the number of cases in which factional struggles within an association, or power-tripping or vindictiveness by a senior instructor, are the reason (remember the famous case in the history of TKD when Gen. Choi imposed a mass retesting on Kwan members from non-ODK/CDK schools as part of the organizational infighting in the early 1960s associated with the formation of TKD, as described in Dakin Burdick's 1997 _JAMA_ article or its later version, or here:

_Many individuals by the time they were inducted into the Korean armed forces already possessed a black belt from another kwan. Due to General Choi's influence, however, the rank of black belt was only accepted and transferable from students of Oh Do Kwan and Chung Do Kwan. Those practitioners who held black belts from other kwans had to be retrained and retested to be considered for official black belt status. This formulation, at the hands of General Choi, was questioned by many practitioners of the modern Korean martial arts._​)

Five will get you ten&#8212;thousand, that is&#8212;that this kind of thing is far, far more common than the rescinding of a belt for sexual misconduct, dubious business ethics, public drunkenness or any of the other taboo violation which in theory might give your belt-ranking MA association a bad name. Unfortunately, MA schools and associations are not publically accountable, and there are no legal hedges in place, so far as I know, to protect practitioners against this sort of unilateral action. For this reason, any rescinding of an awarded belt needs to be viewed with the utmost skepticism, and suspicion of nasty motives on the part of the rescinding org.


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## Kacey (Jun 27, 2008)

karate-dragon said:


> I have heard of instructors who have used it as threats and I don't get it - it seems to be a controlling thing used by an abusive crazy instructor. Here's another one - a "waiting" period after you test for a year or two as a trial even though you received the rank?? To me this just seems like a crazy controlling thing.



The "waiting" period depends on what you're waiting for.  Too many students receive their black belts and are never seen from again; when I was in the USTF, they awarded the belt and certificate at the next event after testing (assuming you passed, that is), but student were not allowed to put black trim on the bottom edge of their dobok top until they had been _actively_ training for 6 months after the test.  It had nothing to do with whether or not you were a black belt, and everything to do with whether or not you continued to train - and I don't have a problem with that use of a waiting period.


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## shujika (Jun 27, 2008)

"I have heard of instructors who have used it as threats and I don't get it - it seems to be a controlling thing used by an abusive crazy instructor."

THAT is the main objective IMO, be it an instructor, or an association that does the kicking/stripping. I can see either "kicking them out" (be it a class or assc.) and no longer recognizing the rank "within" the association, but stripping the rank, is solely for "intimidation" of other students. I know of several whom have been "removed" from our org. but I've never seen seen anyone "stripped" of rank, just no longer recognized within the assoc.


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## tellner (Jun 27, 2008)

Kacey said:


> The "waiting" period depends on what you're waiting for.  Too many students receive their black belts and are never seen from again;
> ...
> It had nothing to do with whether or not you were a black belt, and everything to do with whether or not you continued to train - and I don't have a problem with that use of a waiting period.



While I'd like people to hang around it's not really my call. They're grownups and have their own agendas and goals. If they're looking for a certain level of skill and recognition that's what they're looking for. They won't be happy if they're forced to stick around. And as short timers they won't be as focused on training as the ones who are at a lower level or who are in for the longer term. If they've earned it, they get what they deserve. What they choose to do with the experience is their business. Ultimately everyone is happier that way.


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## Kacey (Jun 27, 2008)

tellner said:


> While I'd like people to hang around it's not really my call. They're grownups and have their own agendas and goals. If they're looking for a certain level of skill and recognition that's what they're looking for. They won't be happy if they're forced to stick around. And as short timers they won't be as focused on training as the ones who are at a lower level or who are in for the longer term. *If they've earned it, they get what they deserve.* What they choose to do with the experience is their business. Ultimately everyone is happier that way.


The part in bold was the point - people who stuck around _earned_ the right to wear trim on the bottom of their uniforms; it was in addition to being promoted to I Dan.


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## tellner (Jun 27, 2008)

So the black fringe isn't part of the black belt. It's an extra status thingie that means "black belt plus extra training". Makes sense.

It's a little harder with us. The closest we come to a uniform is the teacher's contention that Converse Hi Tops are the best cheap martial arts shoe in the world


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## Kwan Jang (Jun 29, 2008)

I lnow that I am in the minority and going against the grain here, but our assn. has a rule that if you stop training, you resign your belt and I support it 110%. We look at black belt as an active, dynamic thing that is in large part, performance based. We look at it more like a military commisiion than a high school diploma. If you are actively training and progressing, you keep your rank and can advance. If you quit training for more than six months, you have resigned your status. If you quit training, your skills and fitness are no longer at that level. We will acknowledge that you WERE a black belt, but if you are not actively training, you're not one now. IMO, this eliminates a lot of the poor quality you see from the dan levels of other orgs. Sometimes I wish we had a provision for removing the belt from those who peaked when training for their black belt, then slacked off on their intensity for years afterward. OTOH, there is the argument for those whose skills atrophe due to age, injury illness, ect. and this obviously could lead to abuses.

If a former black belt student wishes to come back into training, they come in as a black belt candidate (red/black) and when they are back in shape and up to level on their technique, their instructor will test them when they are ready (no testing board, no fees, ect) and pick up from where they left off. If someone leaves our school(s) and continues to train, they keep their black belt status with us, though if they are not training in our dan curriculum, they can not test for a higher dan level.  (Anybody else get the guys who come in and you haven't seen them in years, but want to test to the next dan since the time requirements are met? I have it a bit with the guys who go off to college.)

I have had one student that my instructors stripped of his rank on moral misconduct, but he confessed to raping a ten year old girl (his step-daughter). Some of you may see that as being "too controlling", but IF that's how anyone feels, then I feel that maybe your standards are a bit low for my tastes. It could be argued that he still has the physical skills we taught him and such and maybe those will come in handy in prison.

On a side note, Tellner mentioned how Gen.Choi was demoted from the founder of TKD for political reasons. The fact of the matter was that Choi was the one who used his own political position to strong arm the Kwans that were already established to unify into his umbrella org. that he named TKD. As far as I understand it, his "founder" position was only "demoted" to what his real status was as the co-founder of ODK and the military branch's system and as someone who used his tremendous political pull to help organize the system (by whatever means), once he had lost his high psoition and status with the Korean govenment.


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## Shicomm (Jul 1, 2008)

Politics can do strange things...


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## chinto (Jul 2, 2008)

OK , once a blackbelt you are a black belt.... 
now a black belt out of training because he stopped training is NOT the same thing as one who KEEPS TRAINING.


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## stone_dragone (Jul 2, 2008)

In 1994, I started training as a "real" white belt (no previous training).  

In 2000 I tested for Shodan and passed, and was promoted thusly.

Only on two occasions since then have I been tied around someone's waist.  It was rather uncomfortable, being tied in a knot like that


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## Sukerkin (Jul 2, 2008)

Neatly expressed, *SD* .

An awful lot of good points made here ladies and gentlemen, covering quite an area of ground too.

My own opinions on belt 'erosion' are somewhat given away by my response when people ask me my Kung Fu rank.  I always tell then I *used* to be black sash but that was many years ago and, thanks to my accident, I haven't trained since.  My mind still remembers an awful lot but my body simply cannot do it ... so now I use a sword instead :lol:.

I don't think that an organisation should take away someones rank just because they stopped training tho'.  If they keep a register of active members then by all means enter someone there as 'lapsed' but don't wipe out their hard work as if it never happened.

An analogy would be my B.A. (Hons) in Economics.  I earned that nearly twenty-five years ago and most of what I learned has leaked away through atrophy but the university has no right to remove my right to have those letters after my name.

I know that some feel that Martial Arts ranks should be kept 'qualified' or lost and I can see some justification for that.  It's akin to the regular re-certification I have to take that allows me entry to sub-stations etc {as if I'm ever going to forget that 400kV is dangerous :lol:}.

But in the end, my feeling is that what is gained is gained and the rank should not be removed by the organisation other than for public demonstration of discommodation (as the Klingons would say ).


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## Brian S (Jul 2, 2008)

If you earned your blackbelt you are always a blackbelt,however, you may not always be a martial artist.


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## exile (Jul 2, 2008)

Brian S said:


> If you earned your blackbelt you are always a blackbelt,however, you may not always be a martial artist.



That is a very interesting and well-taken view of it...just as a Ph.D. in economics who taught university for a few years, decided tenure wasn't in the offing, went to law school and wound up practicing tax law till retirement wouldn't be an economist at that point... but they'd still be a Ph.D in economics.


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## chinto (Jul 3, 2008)

we have a new student and his son in our dojo.. my understanding is that he is a BB in a different system of  Shorin Ryu.. I noticed that he is wearing a white belt and starting like any other  student.  ..I think that is a good sign.. I have no doubt that he has skills.. he moves like he has trained long and hard .. if with a few years brake.  I was kinda shocked to be addressed as " sir" and "sempi"..  but the man is provably very competent from what I saw in the system he studied before.  ......   I have a hunch its his choice to wear the white belt.. Sensei has let others from other systems who have earned a BB wear their belt  from that system.. they were trained and went up the ranks like any one else.. but wore the BB and lined up with the Black belts.


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## shihansmurf (Jul 18, 2008)

If I earned a trophy in NASKA, would it be invalidated if I stopped competing with NASKA and then started to compete in NBL/SKI?

To put it another way, I won a couple of Golden Gloves titles when I was much younger. I can't compete with them now, does that mean that I never was a Champ?

All our belts are are trophies that we happen to wear around our waist. 

Ther'e symbols of accomplishment. 

Any other meaning we attatch to them is an artificial construct.As an individual we may think it means that we have a duty to uphold a samurai like devotion to duty and honor. An organization may(and usually does) use it as a social lever to reward and enforce continued obedience and conformity. It makes us look cool at parties, fuss over the "validity" of other peoples rank, complain about kids promotions to Super Grand Poobah, and eat or liver and brussle sprouts.Maybe if we didn't take the whole subject so seriously we could get on with our training.

Just a thought
Mark


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## celtic_crippler (Jul 18, 2008)

girlbug2 said:


> ..Always a black belt?
> 
> On another thread I was shocked into realizing that in some systems, it may be possible for one to lose a black belt, as in, have it taken away. Say it ain't so! :O How can this happen? Only under special circumstances, I hope..?
> 
> ...


 
The bottom of the standard Parker Kenpo Patch represents the executioner's ax. It represents how one could be "cut off" from the organization or art if one disgraces it or misuses what they have learned. 

That being said, nobody can suck knowledge out or your head (unless their a squidipuss from Planet X or something....or a mindflayer...lol) If you've "learned" something it is yours. 

In short, you may have your "rank" revoked but not your "knowledge."


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## ArmorOfGod (Jul 19, 2008)

What about the ma organizations that say your black belt lapses or "expires" if you don't pay the yearly associational dues?
I say once a black belt, then always.

AoG


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## geezer (Jul 19, 2008)

chinto said:


> we have a new student and his son in our dojo.. my understanding is that he is a BB in a different system of  Shorin Ryu.. I noticed that he is wearing a white belt and starting like any other  student.  ..I think that is a good sign..



It's ironic. By humbly donning a white belt and expecting no favors, it sounds as though this man has earned more respect in your dojo than if he'd insisted on wearing his black belt from the other system. Interesting.


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## Kacey (Jul 19, 2008)

geezer said:


> It's ironic. By humbly donning a white belt and expecting no favors, it sounds as though this man has earned more respect in your dojo than if he'd insisted on wearing his black belt from the other system. Interesting.



If I start another system, I would start as a white belt unless the instructor chose otherwise.  If I'm new to a system, then I'm a white belt - although I've been in a few situations where the instructor has had students with BBs in other styles start at BB, or some intermediate rank, so that when sparring occurred the other students knew what to expect from that student, and I can see that as well.


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## pete (Jul 19, 2008)

the 'black belt' is nothing more than an external symbol of internal strength. without a continued practice it's much like the prince who becomes a pauper.  looks a little rediculous wearing that crown, but guess he's entitled to it.

pete


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 19, 2008)

girlbug2 said:


> ..Always a black belt?
> 
> On another thread I was shocked into realizing that in some systems, it may be possible for one to lose a black belt, as in, have it taken away. Say it ain't so! :O How can this happen? Only under special circumstances, I hope..?
> 
> ...




I have heard of people being kicked out of organizations and having their rank taking away. 

I agree that the top man or group can remove people from the published list of people of are listed as respected teachers within their organization. 

It does not mean that if this happens the person has somehow been given memory loss to loose all they learned. 


The examples I have seen and heard about were those that were child molesters, people who defrauded a school or seminar participants or stole money from the seniors or what have you. 

I have also seen it directly by those who presume to take charge of an organization and not recognize a rank until one tests under them. I just replied as they never tested in front of me or under me I do not recognize their rank or title in return. In the end, more people respect me for my actions and skill set then they respect the person I speak of. 

So it does happen, but from my experience it is not an everyday thing. It also usually required someone to do something big that would end friendships or even cause families to think twice about interacting with the person.


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## IWishToLearn (Jul 19, 2008)

Kacey said:


> If I start another system, I would start as a white belt unless the instructor chose otherwise. If I'm new to a system, then I'm a white belt - although I've been in a few situations where the instructor has had students with BBs in other styles start at BB, or some intermediate rank, so that when sparring occurred the other students knew what to expect from that student, and I can see that as well.


 I do the same. If I have a new student who is a black somewhere else start with me, I give them a belt that always has a black stripe down the center. Serves several purposes:
1) Lets everyone else know they have prior training - again good for multiple reasons.
2) Shows their own respect for starting over again.
3) Honors their previous work while showing their accomplishments within the current system they're training in.

Whenever I go somewhere I wear whatever belt the instructor asks me to.


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