# Karate and Kobudo Development



## Makalakumu (Jul 1, 2009)

One thing that I have always wondered is whether or not karate and kobudo systems have direct links.  I have seen separate styles of kobodu and I have seen completely integrated systems where weapon skills directly transfer into empty hand.  A good example of this is the fact that some karate systems teach empty hand and weapon forms that share the same name, ie _gojushiho dai_ and _gojushiho sai_.  

At some point during the development of both, was there a point where the systems were integrated?  If so, when did they diverge?  Or, did karate and kobudo develop separately?


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## twendkata71 (Jul 1, 2009)

*More than likely. The older chinese styles are completely integrated empty hand and weapons training.  Most karate masters on Okinawa also train in Kobudo/Kobujutsu.  I don't persay like the term karate weapons. Kobudo is kobudo and karate do is karate do. *


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## arnisador (Jul 1, 2009)

I learned gojushiho no sai before the gojushiho forms! It was interesting. I don't know much more than you do--some kobudo systems are separate from any specific style, and other kobudo kata are tied to a particular art. My impression is that they began separately and came to be integrated, but I don't know.

See also:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1603


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## dancingalone (Jul 1, 2009)

I study and teach goju-ryu, Jundokan lineage.  Kobudo is introduced relatively early at 7-6 kyu with the bo first then the tonfa, sai, eku, and nunchaku.  The kobudo forms are from Shinken Taira's teachings, but they are not connected in the sense that you mention with gojushiho_.  _

We frequently practice basics singly and with a partner.  Sometimes we use simple floor practice patterns with a weapon to highlight the fact that the movements should be similar whether you are armed or not.  Other times, we study the formal kata that were handed down for single or paired work, but these bear little resemblance to our empty hand goju kata in terms of choreography.  In our case, we understand that our empty hand and kobudo come from different sources and we honor and respect both as such.

It is my understanding that Miyagi Sensei, the founder of Goju, did not teach kobudo although he certainly knew it himself.


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## MBuzzy (Jul 1, 2009)

I wonder where the theory that weapon based arts were developed and taught first and empty handed came later fits in....


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## dancingalone (Jul 1, 2009)

MBuzzy said:


> I wonder where the theory that weapon based arts were developed and taught first and empty handed came later fits in....



That's something I have heard from a few different people who practice jujutsu or jujutsu-based arts like aikido.  The sword was always the primary practice for the samurai but over time it was realized that the same cutting motions and centered movement could be used even when one didn't hold a sword in hand.  My wife for example, an aikido teacher, often teaches her students throws while holding a jo or a bokken to illustrate to them this linkage.


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## Makalakumu (Jul 1, 2009)

Soke Stephen Carbone told me that all karate flowed from weapons.  In his style of kobudo, the weapons come first and then the empty hand techniques are introduced.  This seems very much like FMA to me.


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## Uchinanchu (Jul 2, 2009)

maunakumu said:


> Soke Stephen Carbone told me that all karate flowed from weapons. In his style of kobudo, the weapons come first and then the empty hand techniques are introduced. This seems very much like FMA to me.


This may work very well for some styles and/or teachers (depending upon their respective teaching practices).  On the other hand, this can also be reversed.  You could say that empty hand (unarmed combat) comes first and that weapons are only learned when a proper understanding of combative principals has been achieved.  I was taught at an early age that melee weapons are nothing more than an extension of our own natural weapons that we are born with.  First, learn/understand your own body, its ranges, and its limitations as well as strengths.
Other styles/teachers may choose to teach both simultaniously and may be very successful at training.  One such style that comes to mind (in Okinawa) would be Ryukyu Kempo.  Another, from my limited understanding, would be Udun Di, which claims to have a direct link to the Royal Okinawan 'secret' arts that were supposedly the predecessor to karate as we know it.  It (Udun Di) seems to emphasize many empty hand techniques that were derived directly from sword techniques.  
No matter how one wishes to look at it, the historical developments of karate and kobudo, though entertwined and complimentary towards each other, will most likely remain shrouded in mystery.


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## MBuzzy (Jul 2, 2009)

Uchinanchu said:


> This may work very well for some styles and/or teachers (depending upon their respective teaching practices).  On the other hand, this can also be reversed.  You could say that empty hand (unarmed combat) comes first and that weapons are only learned when a proper understanding of combative principals has been achieved.  I was taught at an early age that melee weapons are nothing more than an extension of our own natural weapons that we are born with.  First, learn/understand your own body, its ranges, and its limitations as well as strengths.
> Other styles/teachers may choose to teach both simultaniously and may be very successful at training.  One such style that comes to mind (in Okinawa) would be Ryukyu Kempo.  Another, from my limited understanding, would be Udun Di, which claims to have a direct link to the Royal Okinawan 'secret' arts that were supposedly the predecessor to karate as we know it.  It (Udun Di) seems to emphasize many empty hand techniques that were derived directly from sword techniques.
> No matter how one wishes to look at it, the historical developments of karate and kobudo, though entertwined and complimentary towards each other, will most likely remain shrouded in mystery.



What Sensei Carbone was referred to involved the historical origins, not the current teaching methods.  To me, his theory makes the most sense...why train a battle field warrior to fight with bare hands when they will have a sword.

Basically, without any other historical knowledge, I would say that Kobudo probably developed first - or rather...the roots and building blocks of kobudo and was followed by empty handed practice.  Weapons have been used since humans first began using tools.  Advanced knowledge of human anatomy and how to manipulate it came much later.  Until very recently we were bleeding people and having them chew on leaves to cure diseases.


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## arnisador (Jul 2, 2009)

The historical origins of Karate are Southern Chinese Kung Fu. The Okinawan weapons and a modest amount of Ryukyuan grappling were added in to it. So, Okinawan weapons leading to Karate techniques just can't be right from a historical viewpoint.


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## TimoS (Jul 2, 2009)

MBuzzy said:


> What Sensei Carbone was referred to involved the historical origins, not the current teaching methods.  To me, his theory makes the most sense...why train a battle field warrior to fight with bare hands when they will have a sword.


Well for one thing, karate has never been a battlefield art, so that line of thought can be forgotten. 
Secondly, and this is more important, the kobudo systems that are in existense today are all very modern creations, even more modern than many styles of karate. Before Taira Shinken and Shinpo Matayoshi, a karate master would probably know maybe one or two weapons kata and nothing more. Look at e.g. Chotoku Kyan. The only weapons kata he learned was Tokumine-no-kun. Matayoshi and Taira Shinken went to different masters (they also learned from each other), learned the weapons kata, collected the teachings, made a few of their own and thus created the kobudo systems.


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## arnisador (Jul 2, 2009)

Indeed, my understanding is that in the old days (1700s) a Karate master might know only three or so empty-hand kata, let alone weapons kata! People started "collecting" these kata circa the early 1900s to preserve them for posterity.


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## TimoS (Jul 3, 2009)

arnisador said:


> Indeed, my understanding is that in the old days (1700s) a Karate master might know only three or so empty-hand kata, let alone weapons kata! People started "collecting" these kata circa the early 1900s to preserve them for posterity.


Yes, I think that is more or less correct.


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## Cayuga Karate (Jul 29, 2009)

I have been reading Martial Arts forums for many years and this post is in a rare class. A thoughtful, question, followed by reasoned, insightful and measured responses. Every response brings useful information to the discussion.

My art is centered on an attempt to answer this question of the connection of Okinawan empty hand kata and weapons. A couple of weeks ago, after much planning, I began a videoblog of my art, based on the Chinese-Okinawan empty hand kata practiced today. I will present over 40 kata for use with the spear.  http://www.cayugakarate.com/blog

On my blog, I posted a contribution to this discussion.  http://cayugakarate.com/blog/?p=64

My contribution to this post is somewhat of a long post, and I thought that it might be a bit inappropriate on this forum because of its length. And I fully recognize that my ideas will be extremely controversial to many. I do expect that once I have had the opportunity to present my ideas fully, that there may, over time, be some acceptance of them in the karate community. But these ideas are novel, and will be difficult for many to accept, regardless of what evidence I present. I recognize that.

A bit about my background. In 1980, I passed my test for Shodan in Hayashi-ha Shito Ryu at the Cornell Dojo in Ithaca NY, and I have been active in a wide variety of arts ever since. For the last 10 years I have  run this school, teaching over 300 students in the arts of Chinese-Okinawan kata and application. Since 2003, I have been privileged to be a senior student of Shihan Fracchia and hold the rank of 6th dan.

One last note on my blog. All my instruction material for the Chinese-Okinawan kata I will share will be free of charge. To date, I have put up an hour of training/kata. Over time, most of my videos will have voice-overs for better instruction, but for now I will be posting just raw video of my training.

Mike Eschenbrenner


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## TimoS (Jul 29, 2009)

Cayuga Karate said:


> And I fully recognize that my ideas will be extremely controversial to many


Hi,
yes, they are a bit hard to accept. If I understood you correctly, you seem to be saying that the empty hand kata are in fact, more or less, weapons forms (particularly spear. By the way, which weapon is the "okinawan spear"? Rochin or nunti, or something totally different?) and the trouble with that is movement. That is to say, movements in unarmed kata are meant for unarmed combat and therefore the distancing is different from armed movement. The movements of weapons kata support the usage of the weapon and the distancing and positioning ideal for that weapon. From a purely technical point of view in any unarmed kata there are elements that can be used for armed combat also, BUT then the movements have to be modified, sometimes dramatically.


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## Grenadier (Jul 29, 2009)

It all depends on the system of kobudo that you study.  

Some systems do, indeed, derive their weapons kata from their empty hand kata.  Kotaka Sensei, the chief instructor of Kotaka-ha Shito Ryu, has done this with various weapons kata, and I've seen his creation, Rohai No Kon, performed at a good number of competitions.  This creation came from the empty hand kata, Rohai Shodan.  

However, there are systems that are essentially kobudo from the ground up, instead of being based on empty hand Karate training.  

I've been studying Yamanni Chinen Ryu for a few years now, and can appreciate the uniqueness of the system.  With an emphasis placed on flowing strikes and continual movement, it gives me a chance to train in a way that my previous (or current) empty hand Karate training (whether Okinawan or Japanese flavored) did not really emphasize.  

Here's a rather interesting interview with Oshiro Sensei (chief instructor of Yamanni Ryu) that offers some insight:

http://www.oshirodojo.com/kobudo_int.html


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## Cayuga Karate (Jul 29, 2009)

I mentioned that this is a near perfect thread. I have neither the desire nor intention of hijacking this superb thread with the lengthy discussions needed to explain the art that I practice. Many will find my art highly controversial, and it would not, in my view be productive to go into in detail here. Karate forums, even one as good as this one, sometimes are not well-suited to controversial topics. 

  I decided to post a response here on MartialTalk because the question that is first asked on this thread is the driving influence behind my art. I too saw that there appeared a subtle but significant overlap of the movements in the Chinese forms passed on to the Okinawans, and common weapons movements from many arts. 

I have focused extensive training time trying to explore the potential of this concept. And to share this information, I have a new videoblog: 

http://www.cayugakarate.com/blog
that is devoted to demonstrating why I believe that the old Chinese forms likely were developed primarily for military applications. But as I will show on my videoblog, these movements work for all sorts of unarmed applications as well.
  I do want to briefly address the two questions above. It is my contention that the Chinese, over thousands of years, developed a very extensive family of military spear arts that, in addition to battlefield use, trained those skilled with the spear, in effective empty hand applications as well. Over hundreds of years, Chinese military personnel, and former military personnel taught these arts to the Okinawans. Though there are modifications the Okinawans made to many kata, the core principles that allow for battlefield spear fighting survived intact. 

As I said this is highly controversial, so for any further explanation from me on this topic, I invite  Martialtalk readers to my videoblog where I have a post from yesterday that is a more detailed response to the question asked at the beginning of this thread. 

http://www.cayugakarate.com/blog/?p=64

My goal is to post a half hour per week of video training/instruction until I have completed my review of over 40 Chinese-Okinawan kata. I anticipate that t should take 2-3 years.


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## TimoS (Jul 29, 2009)

Grenadier said:


> It all depends on the system of kobudo that you study.


Oh yes, of course. I used to study in one such system, but from the perspective of "classical" kata, they are all either empty-hand or weapons kata and not both. _Maybe_ you could use e.g. tekko when performing empty hand kata to enhance the effect of the techniques, but since I'm not familiar with the tool, I can't say anything for sure.


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## searcher (Aug 3, 2009)

arnisador said:


> Indeed, my understanding is that in the old days (1700s) a Karate master might know only three or so empty-hand kata, let alone weapons kata! People started "collecting" these kata circa the early 1900s to preserve them for posterity.


 

You are very close to perfect in your assessment. In fact, most karate masters pre-1900 only knew 1 or 2 kata. It was not until later on with people like Kyan, Motobu, Funakoshi, Chitose, that masters were knowledgable in several kata. At least that is theway I learned it.

With kata being the keys to techniques a master had learned and perfect, some masters would not teach just anybody what they had learned.




Also, in my school, I teach weapons, but the student needs to have a good understanding of how to move and use their body first.    Then they can learn to extend their body with a weapon.


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## Ojisan (Aug 5, 2009)

TimoS said:


> Look at e.g. Chotoku Kyan. The only weapons kata he learned was Tokumine-no-kun.


 
Somebody revive Shimabukuro, Nagamine, and Odo and tell them to give back Kyan no Sai.


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## TimoS (Aug 5, 2009)

Ojisan said:


> Somebody revive Shimabukuro, Nagamine, and Odo and tell them to give back Kyan no Sai.


To the best of my knowledge Kyan no sai was developed by Tatsuo Shimabukuro. If you have other knowledge, I would like to know. If it was developed and taught by Kyan, why is it not in Seibukan? Zenryo Shimabukuro was one of the seniormost (if not the seniormost) student of Kyan, so I find it odd that he didn't include it into his curriculum.

Ah, just got additional information. There are two Kyan no sai kata in existense. One was developed by Tatsuo Shimabukuro, the other by a Matsubayashi ryu instructor called Shinei Kyan (no relation to Chotoku Kyan).


> Sai:
> 
> The iron weapon, sai, which in olden days was used by officials to arrest criminals and to hold back crowds, was actually created to defend against attacks from swords, bo, nunchaku or tuifa.
> 
> One of the sai kata practiced in Matsubayashi-Ryu is called "Chomo Hanagusku No Sai." "Hanagusku" is the Okinawan pronunciation of "Hanashiro." Chomo Hanashiro taught sai kata to Shinei Kyan, one of the founding members of the Nagamine dojo. The kata is also called "Kyan No Sai."


http://www.matsubayashi-ryu.com/print.php?id=Res_Kobudo&gloss=



> [20:29:08] kimongua: Kyan Shinei (1914-July 16, 1997): Only about 26 years of age at the time of the special committee, Kyan was a student of both karate and kobudo. He studied kobudo (principally saijutsu) with Kina Shosei (1882-?)/10 who also taught Isa Shinyu/11, and bojutsu under Oshiro Chojo (1888-1939) of the Yamanni-Ryu tradition. He also studied bojutsu under Hanashiro Chomo, from whom he learned the bo kata Shirataro No Kon. A large, strongly built man, Kyan was well-known in Okinawa as an expert of both the sai and bo.
> 
> Kyan was a long-time friend of Nagamine Shoshin. One of the earliest members of Matsubayashi-Ryu, he was a Hanshi, 9th dan, in the art at the time of his death. Two of the sai kata practiced in Matsubayashi-Ryu are attributed to him. The basic kata is simply called Sai Dai Ichi. The more advanced kata is referred to as Kyan No Sai. A 1965 film of Kyan taken in "Mr. Benoki's Garden" shows his considerable expertise with both the bo and sai. In it, he performs his namesake kata with three sai, throwing one into the ground at the end. He also performs Shirataro No Kon.
> 
> ...


http://seinenkai.com/articles/art-fukyu.html


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## Ojisan (Aug 5, 2009)

Thanks for the information on the "other" Kyan. 

Odo taught a "Kyan no Sai" and his lineage goes back to Nakamura. However, he may have known the other Kyan. 

I guess my question would be as to why Tatsuo would create  a Kyan no Sai, if Kyan didn't teach the weapon. Again, I never saw any information on Kyan's weapons training except Bishop's comment (I think) about Tokimine having alrready died when Kyan went to learn the form.


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## TimoS (Aug 5, 2009)

Ojisan said:


> I guess my question would be as to why Tatsuo would create  a Kyan no Sai, if Kyan didn't teach the weapon.


Well, from what I've been told, Kyan no sai is "just" Seiunchin (or however that is spelled) done with sai, with maybe some modifications (I am relying on what I've been told on this, as I am not familiar with either kata). Another thing is, many of the instructors made their own kata. Kyan created Ananku based on the other kata he learned, likewise Zenryo Shimabukuro created Wanchin and Nagamine created his own Ananku. So maybe Tatsuo learned sai basics from someone and thus made Kyan no sai as a homage to his teacher.



> Again, I never saw any information on Kyan's weapons training except Bishop's comment (I think) about Tokimine having alrready died when Kyan went to learn the form.


Hmm, I'll have to check my book also. Can't remember reading about that, but then again, it's been a few years since I last read it, so maybe I've forgotten  Shame my contact's gone offline for the evening, can't check with him.


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## arnisador (Aug 5, 2009)

I learned Gojushiho no sai prior to learning Gojushiho. It was interesting to see how one kata could do "double duty"!


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## searcher (Aug 5, 2009)

arnisador said:


> I learned Gojushiho no sai prior to learning Gojushiho. It was interesting to see how one kata could do "double duty"!


 

Funny you even bring that up.    I have required this practice in the past with my 1st Kyu students who are up for BB.    They choose the weapon and the kata then have to put them together.


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## Grenadier (Aug 6, 2009)

TimoS said:


> Ah, just got additional information. There are two Kyan no sai kata in existense. One was developed by Tatsuo Shimabukuro, the other by a Matsubayashi ryu instructor called Shinei Kyan (no relation to Chotoku Kyan).
> 
> http://www.matsubayashi-ryu.com/print.php?id=Res_Kobudo&gloss=
> 
> ...


 
There are probably more flavors of Kyan No Sai in existence. For example:


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## Victor Smith (Aug 11, 2009)

Isshinryu's Kyan No Sai is a layered issue.

Shimabuku Tatsuo taught it to the Americans in the late 50's or so and later discontinued teaching it, but incorporated a piece of that kata into his Kusanku Sai practice (extending the ending of Kusanku).

Many American students were never exposed to it. One lineage which did retain the practice was that of the late Sherman Harrill. Here is one of his students, Mark Radunz, performing it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2Sk0FfUNgM&feature=channel_page 

Many didn't believe in it's existence until the 1958 movie was discovered showing Shimabuku Sensei performing it.  



 
The 'truth' as to its origin and whether it was retained in his Okinawan students practice I can't prove.  Whether there is a link to Kyan, that it was a Kyan practice, or a kata created to honnor the instructor I can't prove.  I do recall reading Odo Sensei did train with Shimabuku Sensei at one time.

The past is done, it cannot be recreated, just honnored. 

Kata exist, practice them or not.

I greatly respect Harrill Sensei's tradition, and his work to keep Kyan no Sai alive, but it is not the Isshinryu tradition I follow and haven't concerned myself in trying to obtain the kata for my own practice.

There are infinate aspects of wonder after all.


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## Victor Smith (Aug 11, 2009)

On the original issue, whether Karate and Kobudo systems have direct links, IMO not on the whole. Most seem to have been a result of post  WWII training.

Isshinryu's Shimabuku Tatsuo studied Tokomeni No Kon with Kyan, and most likely created Kyan no Sai to work sai technique, but in the late 50's early 60's studied with Taira Shinken and incorporated versions of Taira's kobudo kata into Isshinryu, and continued his own efforts creating Kusanku Sai.

Personally I think the fictional portrayal of the past in Tom Cruise' 'the Last Samuari' makes the case empty hand and hand held weapons in warfare was obselete in the late 1800's, the same time Karate was being codified and developed in its more modern forms on Okinawa.

But we don't need a movie, take the time to read on Gettysburg, what firearms could do in one day on a battlefield, and the world studied to create WWI and the rest. They didn't worry about bo, sai or all the rest.

I do not believe kobudo is a quaint practice, but rather that decades of work with the weapons increases your ability in empty hand application. When you can grab an arm and snap it down with the power developed in a descending sai strike, the technique of acceleration is enahnced through the kobudo practice. Each of the weapons training different skills.

If that's not enough reason I don't know what is.


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