# TKD Pioneers Were Not Monolithic



## dancingalone (Dec 19, 2010)

I've been reading the many new TKD threads with great interest.  It's nice to have some good discussion on the board and I hope it keeps up.

One thing I would like to understand better for myself is what exactly is a TKD pioneer?  Is it a very select group, such as the kwan heads only and perhaps their senior students.  Are it the students who were actually practicing during the Tae Kwon Do/Tae Soo Do/ Kong Soo Do name wars even if they didn't hold leadership positions?  Do you have to be part of the KKW or the ITF to qualify as a 'pioneer'?

The answer has a lot to do with whether TKD should have a united vision for the future or not.  As I see it, the people I consider to be TKD pioneers were a diverse group of men with sometimes contradictory goals.  We've seen in the other discussions that some of them even hated each other, such as Hwang Kee vs. General Choi or General Choi vs. a bunch of other guys.

So the themes we see hashed out today such as

self-defense vs. sport
Japanese forms vs. 'Korean' forms
'traditional' vs. nontraditional 

aren't anything new.  They are quarrels we inherited from our seniors and just as they never settled the issues decisively, so too is it impossible to reconcile them all to the satisfaction of every one.


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## msmitht (Dec 19, 2010)

A Pioneer of TKD was someone who left his country to give tkd to the world. 
My late GM, Moon Ku Baek, was a direct student of Hwang Kee. When the house split (tkd/tsd) he took an offer from General Choi's new group and went to Colorado. There he tought Charles Serrif (who he promoted to 2nd Dan) and others before moving to Florida, Ohio and eventually San Diego. 
There was no ITF or KKW at that time. The Kwans still ruled.


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## terryl965 (Dec 19, 2010)

Yea you can say the ones that left there country to give TKD to the world but remember so many of them was not even a Black Belt when they got on the plane and then was a Master when it landed. Not saying any particular person but we have all heard of these story's. I believe the pioneers of TKD would have to ahve been the original kwan leaders, but then again that is just my opinion.


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## puunui (Dec 19, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> One thing I would like to understand better for myself is what exactly is a TKD pioneer?  Is it a very select group, such as the kwan heads only and perhaps their senior students.  Are it the students who were actually practicing during the Tae Kwon Do/Tae Soo Do/ Kong Soo Do name wars even if they didn't hold leadership positions?  Do you have to be part of the KKW or the ITF to qualify as a 'pioneer'?



Everyone has their own definition, but to me a "Taekwondo pioneer" (a phrase I coined and started using by the way, before anyone else, at least on the internet), is someone who began their training in the 1940's or earlier and actively participated and contributed to Taekwondo's development in Korea. I don't not consider those who contributed outside Korea to be pioneers in the sense that I am speaking about. The pioneers include Kwan Jang but also other senior students who played active roles in the shaping of Taekwondo. If you were involved in creating the Palgwae, Taeguek and Yudanja poomsae for example, or developing the steps or other methodology of modern sparring, or being there when the hogu was brought from Japan and its use developed in Korea, or setting up the organization. Or any of a number of ways people contributed to the development of Taekwondo. 




dancingalone said:


> The answer has a lot to do with whether TKD should have a united vision for the future or not.  As I see it, the people I consider to be TKD pioneers were a diverse group of men with sometimes contradictory goals.  We've seen in the other discussions that some of them even hated each other, such as Hwang Kee vs. General Choi or General Choi vs. a bunch of other guys.
> So the themes we see hashed out today such as
> self-defense vs. sport
> Japanese forms vs. 'Korean' forms
> ...



I would say the goals were the same; it's just that certain people like GM HWANG Kee, Dr. YOON Kwe Byung and General Choi wanted to do it differently than the others. 

They all wanted to develop the competition aspects and were not opposed. For example, GM Hwang was one of the first to host tournaments and he and Dr. Yoon went on the first exchange trip to Japan where they brought back the first four hogu. General Choi also was interested in "sport" as evidenced by the fact that he tried very hard to get the ITF recognized as the IOC International Federation for Taekwondo. 

Also GM Hwang and General Choi created their own "korean" forms, as did the Kukkiwon. 

The difference is they "lost" so to speak. But if people want to follow GM Hwang or General Choi and adopt their teachings, that's fine with me. 

What I am attempting to do is explain or publicize what the Kukki Taekwondo pioneers did, and why, so that those of us who are part of the Kukki Taekwondo world can hopefully begin to see what the Taekwondo jigsaw puzzle looked like, from their perspective. After all, they created it, and so we should at least try a little to understand what the process was and why they did what they did. 

If people want to disagree with what they did then that is their business. But at least they will hopefully realize what they are doing is not what the pioneers intended or wanted. What happens then is these "rebels" end up in the same position as GM Hwang, GM Son, and General Choi, which is outsiders looking in, excluded from the movement. that's what happens when you refuse Kukkiwon certification, or fail to do the Kukkiwon poomsae according to Kukkiwon standards, or overly emphasize face punching in your sparring.


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## bluewaveschool (Dec 19, 2010)

Wait, hold on here.  Are you really going to argue that Gen. Choi wasn't teaching true TKD in the same post that you are saying the man is a pioneer of the art?  To say that those that followed pioneers such as GM Son, that followed GM Kang Suh Chong, or or that follow the later non KKW master such as Jhoon Rhee and Hee Il Cho, are to be 'excluded'?  Please please please tell me that is not what you are saying.


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## puunui (Dec 19, 2010)

bluewaveschool said:


> Wait, hold on here.  Are you really going to argue that Gen. Choi wasn't teaching true TKD in the same post that you are saying the man is a pioneer of the art?  To say that those that followed pioneers such as GM Son, that followed GM Kang Suh Chong, or or that follow the later non KKW master such as Jhoon Rhee and Hee Il Cho, are to be 'excluded'?  Please please please tell me that is not what you are saying.




What I am saying is that they were excluded from Kukki Taekwondo, by their own actions. Whether they teach "true" Taekwondo, I guess people can argue about that one all day long. I know there are people out there who feel much more strongly about that issue than I do. Personally, I think we all fall short in one way or another teaching what is the ideal. No one is perfect. 

And GM Hee Il CHO has adopted the Kukkiwon poomsae and is Kukkiwon certified, so I would consider him a Kukkiwon certified master instructor. He even wrote books on the Kukkiwon poomsae.


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## bluewaveschool (Dec 19, 2010)

I knew he wrote books for both KKW and ITF form sets, I did not know that he was KKW certified.  I also know that he runs his own org, and thought that doing so and not being part of the WTF would exclude him from the KKW.


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## dancingalone (Dec 19, 2010)

puunui said:


> I would say the goals were the same; it's just that certain people like GM HWANG Kee, Dr. YOON Kwe Byung and General Choi wanted to do it differently than the others.



I'm having a hard time reconciling that picture, but it's probably because things have turned out so poorly.  I can accept that the majority thought using the popularity of sport was a good idea to sell TKD as Korea's gift to the world.  I do question however whether the current game as played in the Olympics is what they really wanted to create.



puunui said:


> They all wanted to develop the competition aspects and were not opposed. For example, GM Hwang was one of the first to host tournaments and he and Dr. Yoon went on the first exchange trip to Japan where they brought back the first four hogu. General Choi also was interested in "sport" as evidenced by the fact that he tried very hard to get the ITF recognized as the IOC International Federation for Taekwondo.



What about the men that kept the Japanese forms?  Like Kim, Pyung Soo of Houston or Rhee, Kang who settled in Memphis?  I definitely get the feeling that competition was much less important to both of them, although certainly they participated in the independent karate tournaments in the past (I want to say the seventies were the heyday for this).  

I don't think either of these men bought into the TKD unification movement ultimately nor do I think they fit the "taekwondo IS sport" assertion that you make.



puunui said:


> Also GM Hwang and General Choi created their own "korean" forms, as did the Kukkiwon.



Arguably, the Chil Sungs are the most 'Korean', IMO.  I see little departure from the Heian forms in the gup-level Choi forms or in the Palgwes.  I'll leave my remarks about the Tae Geuks for another time.



puunui said:


> The difference is they "lost" so to speak. But if people want to follow GM Hwang or General Choi and adopt their teachings, that's fine with me.



Do you believe TKD, whichever way you care to spell it, is an appropriate moniker for either faction?  Or would you strip the name from the Moo Duk Kwan TKD people as well as the ITF people?



puunui said:


> What I am attempting to do is explain or publicize what the Kukki Taekwondo pioneers did, and why, so that those of us who are part of the Kukki Taekwondo world can hopefully begin to see what the Taekwondo jigsaw puzzle looked like, from their perspective. After all, they created it, and so we should at least try a little to understand what the process was and why they did what they did.



I think this is a good thing to do.  Especially since you have this kind of access.



puunui said:


> If people want to disagree with what they did then that is their business. But at least they will hopefully realize what they are doing is not what the pioneers intended or wanted. What happens then is these "rebels" end up in the same position as GM Hwang, GM Son, and General Choi, which is outsiders looking in, excluded from the movement. that's what happens when you refuse Kukkiwon certification, or fail to do the Kukkiwon poomsae according to Kukkiwon standards, or overly emphasize face punching in your sparring.



Well, I come from a lineage of one of these outsider groups.  Surely no one would deny that Jhoon Rhee is a pioneer, considering he's widely called the 'Father of America Tae Kwon Do'.  Mr. Rhee has been doing his own thing for a long time, even when he was part of the ITF.  Perhaps it's a case of not knowing what you are missing, but I've never felt like a lesser martial artist because my own brand of TKD is not a 'unified' one.


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## puunui (Dec 19, 2010)

bluewaveschool said:


> I knew he wrote books for both KKW and ITF form sets, I did not know that he was KKW certified.  I also know that he runs his own org, and thought that doing so and not being part of the WTF would exclude him from the KKW.




Maybe other people might use that stuff as a basis to exclude GM Cho. However, I do not believe the pioneers would exclude him, because their definition is very broad and all encompassing. Everyone should be included.


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## puunui (Dec 19, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> I'm having a hard time reconciling that picture, but it's probably because things have turned out so poorly.  I can accept that the majority thought using the popularity of sport was a good idea to sell TKD as Korea's gift to the world.  I do question however whether the current game as played in the Olympics is what they really wanted to create.



The pioneers wanted to create a unique martial art that emphasized kicking, which fits with the culture and history of Korea. I believe that they disagree as to how some of the juniors are doing things to destroy their work, but overall I believe that they are happy with what they created. Taekwondo started from a small group of practitioners in a war torn third world country to become the most practiced martial art in the world. 




dancingalone said:


> What about the men that kept the Japanese forms?  Like Kim, Pyung Soo of Houston or Rhee, Kang who settled in Memphis?  I definitely get the feeling that competition was much less important to both of them, although certainly they participated in the independent karate tournaments in the past (I want to say the seventies were the heyday for this).



I don't know about GM Kang Rhee, but I know that GM KIM Pyung Soo has Kukkiwon rank and he even refereed at a USTU event which was televised on ESPN, the US Olympic Sports Festival when it was held in Houston. As for them keeping the Japanese (and in GM Kim's case, Chinese) forms, like I said, everyone is in a state of noncompliance, it's just a matter of degree, some more than others, but we are all Taekwondo. 




dancingalone said:


> I don't think either of these men bought into the TKD unification movement ultimately nor do I think they fit the "taekwondo IS sport" assertion that you make.



They didn't buy into it because they wanted to control it. If they were in control, I am sure they would have been all for it.




dancingalone said:


> Do you believe TKD, whichever way you care to spell it, is an appropriate moniker for either faction?  Or would you strip the name from the Moo Duk Kwan TKD people as well as the ITF people?



It's a start that we call what we do by the same name. The next stage is to get everyone certified under the Kukkiwon. And the final stage is to have everyone have a unified curriculum. That is how the pioneers approached unification, and like I said, we are all in a state of non-compliance. Some people are still in the earlier stages. It might take a generation or two before they come around. What I have noticed is that the students of the most stubborn anti-sport, anti-Kukkiwon practitioners often times become the most loyal supporters and believers. We just need patience. 




dancingalone said:


> Well, I come from a lineage of one of these outsider groups.  Surely no one would deny that Jhoon Rhee is a pioneer, considering he's widely called the 'Father of America Tae Kwon Do'.  Mr. Rhee has been doing his own thing for a long time, even when he was part of the ITF.  Perhaps it's a case of not knowing what you are missing, but I've never felt like a lesser martial artist because my own brand of TKD is not a 'unified' one.



And that is ok. But at least you recognize that your Taekwondo isn't a part of the unified branch. Perhaps one or more of your students or your student's students will feel differently. If so, let them know that they can call me anytime, and I will do my best to get them squared away.


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## leadleg (Dec 19, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> I'm having a hard time reconciling that picture, but it's probably because things have turned out so poorly. I can accept that the majority thought using the popularity of sport was a good idea to sell TKD as Korea's gift to the world.* I do question however whether the current game as played in the Olympics is what they really wanted to create*


 If you look back in history the Koreans did not have sword dueling as they thought it barbaric, I believe in the same vein sparring full contact without it turning ugly or barbaric would have to have the no punching to the face,grabbing kicking to the groin......etc. If you look at the games they played in early history it included kicking one opponent out of a circle, I believe WTF style sparring is very Korean. 
It is obviously not perfect,and practicioners will find every advantage to bend rules to win. That is why you see the rules changing so often,partly for spectators and partly to keep the original idea of kicking to win. Also everytime the athletes and coaches figure out how to win without doing much kicking the rules have to be changed. I like the changes,it keeps the game from getting stale, I also get the frustration factor.
 Of course there is also the thing about decisions being made in commitee,so much give and take. I see the sport trying to keep up with the computer age and commend them on that, wireless scoring,trying to get everyone to use perfect techniques, I find it exciting and refreshing.


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## puunui (Dec 19, 2010)

leadleg said:


> If you look back in history the Koreans did not have sword dueling as they thought it barbaric, I believe in the same vein sparring full contact without it turning ugly or barbaric would have to have the no punching to the face,grabbing kicking to the groin......etc. If you look at the games they played in early history it included kicking one opponent out of a circle, I believe WTF style sparring is very Korean.




One thing we need to understand is that in Korea, to punch someone in the face is a very barbaric act, especially if you are an artisan, an educated person who knows how to write, or someone who does fine things with one's hands, because you can break your hand and then you cannot do your job. So they would much rather kick you than punch you. 

This is difficult to understand if you come from a culture where it is common to fight by punching someone in the face. You will only get it if you try to understand Taekwondo from the Korean cultural perspective, instead of one's own "they speak funny english in england" perspective.


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## bluewaveschool (Dec 19, 2010)

I would never exclude GM Cho from a list of the pioneers, I simply did not think that you could hold KKW rank and run an org that is not WTF.  


A question, then - Is it possible to hold KKW dan rank and not belong to WTF or perform WTF forms?


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## puunui (Dec 19, 2010)

bluewaveschool said:


> I would never exclude GM Cho from a list of the pioneers, I simply did not think that you could hold KKW rank and run an org that is not WTF.



I was thinking of GM CHO Hee Il more as a Kukki Taekwondoin more than a pioneer. Although I have to say that GM Cho inspired a whole generation to train their jump back kick doing the splits like he did.




bluewaveschool said:


> A question, then - Is it possible to hold KKW dan rank and not belong to WTF or perform WTF forms?



Sure, a lot of practitioners have Kukkiwon certification and yet do not know or teach the Kukkiwon poomsae. Also, technically individuals cannot belong to the WTF; the only "members" or Member National Associations. Also the WTF does not have any forms; they use the Kukkiwon poomsae at their poomsae events.


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## terryl965 (Dec 19, 2010)

Well the WTF have re-done the poomsae to make it more arobic like, they won't the sport aspect in them. They are not really into the actual applications of said poomsae.


On another subject matter people really need to understand the WTF watches over the sport competition of TKD. The KKW has a limited curriculum for people to follow and issue poom/Dan ranks and keep the data base for the world.


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## leadleg (Dec 19, 2010)

@ Puunui That is strange as the minimal requirments for KKW rank are poomse. 
@ Terry I do not see this from the WTF poomse


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## bluewaveschool (Dec 19, 2010)

puunui said:


> I was thinking of GM CHO Hee Il more as a Kukki Taekwondoin more than a pioneer. Although I have to say that GM Cho inspired a whole generation to train their jump back kick doing the splits like he did.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




GM Cho's kicking prowess was borderline ridiculous, back in the day.  I've seen video of his back spin heel kick breaking a board tossed mid-air.  I've done a single board with a vertical knife hand strike a few times, but that kick is just crazy.


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## bluewaveschool (Dec 19, 2010)

So wait... KKW TKD has it's own set of forms, but will rank persons that do not do their form set.  This seems odd to me.  How does that work?


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## terryl965 (Dec 19, 2010)

Because there are still people that teach the original poomsae, as well teach the original version of Koryo. Remember the Tae Gueks came around in the 70's, even though they are the most practice poomsae they are not the only ones. The last thing I will mention is all you need is a certified KKW 4th and they can sign off for you up until your 3rd and the KKW has no way of knowing if you really know anything. They do not police there members at all.


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## bluewaveschool (Dec 19, 2010)

Huh... still seems strange to me.  I suppose after 3rd, you better know KKW poomse if you want to go higher?


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## leadleg (Dec 19, 2010)

You can not use the original Koryo for testing at KKW. Why would a 4th dan want to pass anyone that did not know the minimum KKW requirments? They are not that hard,if we only used the KKW requirements Our students would be bored to quitting


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## bluewaveschool (Dec 19, 2010)

Even with a different form set, a good instructor can tell good from bad form/hyung/poomse performance.


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## leadleg (Dec 19, 2010)

The style of poomse, 8 taegueks,and the dan forms are one of the most distinct ways to tell if someone is KKW TKD or not. 
It could be that you may get in the door but at some point you would have to learn and teach those specific forms. 
I will wait for Puunui to explain that. 
It is hard enough for KKW guys who have moo duk kwan or other Japanese based kwans to conform to the KKW stances much less change forms.


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## dancingalone (Dec 19, 2010)

leadleg said:


> It is hard enough for KKW guys who have moo duk kwan or other Japanese based kwans to conform to the KKW stances much less change forms.



Absolutely.  Japanese karate people tend to think KKW forms look sloppy and unfocused, while I imagine the same KKW people might think Japanese kata look overly rigid.

Kind of tough to serve more than 1 master, you know?  I practice a few Shorin-ryu kata in addition to my main style of Goju-ryu karate.  It can be tough for me to remember to punch and move the correct way with the Shorin-ryu forms and I've actually known them longer than the Goju forms.  Hopefully I will get to the point to where they are as naturally to me as my 'base', but I'm not there yet.  

I can only see madness from trying to practice the Tae Geuks in conjunction with the old kwan hyung.


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## IcemanSK (Dec 19, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> Because there are still people that teach the original poomsae, as well teach the original version of Koryo. Remember the Tae Gueks came around in the 70's, even though they are the most practice poomsae they are not the only ones. The last thing *I will mention is all you need is a certified KKW 4th and they can sign off for you up until your 3rd and the KKW has no way of knowing if you really know anything. *They do not police there members at all.



It's actually even easier than that, honestly. All one needs is for an instructor who keeps up with the KKW requirements & tests on them him/her self. They can test students on the ANYTHING & call it a KKW Dan test. There's a guy in my town who doesn't even teach his students poomsae of any kind. They have legit KKW dan certs. (I've checked). 

Sadly, this (& worse) happen daily.


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## leadleg (Dec 19, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Absolutely. Japanese karate people tend to think KKW forms look sloppy and unfocused, while I imagine the same KKW people might think Japanese kata look overly rigid.
> 
> Kind of tough to serve more than 1 master, you know? I practice a few Shorin-ryu kata in addition to my main style of Goju-ryu karate. It can be tough for me to remember to punch and move the correct way with the Shorin-ryu forms and I've actually known them longer than the Goju forms. Hopefully I will get to the point to where they are as naturally to me as my 'base', but I'm not there yet.
> 
> I can only see madness from trying to practice the Tae Geuks in conjunction with the old kwan hyung.


Yes it is probably a mistake to try and teach different stances for different style forms,but we do it. We believe that certain forms teach or build foundations for a good martial artist, so if you are not doing the KKW forms we ask for deeper stances.We only do some of the moo duk kwan forms. The KKW stances are more natural and I think easier to transition from. Sometimes I feel as though I have to climb up out of those deep horse or back stances,also it isn't easy to kick from a low and long front stance.
 My take on this is what are you doing the form for,movement,excersize,or aesthetics.
 Not that I know anything though


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## andyjeffries (Dec 20, 2010)

puunui said:


> You will only get it if you try to understand Taekwondo from the Korean cultural perspective, instead of one's own "they speak funny english in england" perspective.



It's funny, I always consider the language spoken in America to be "American" not English.  I know there are more of you speaking the language than there are in England, but I'd say English is as spoken in England, others are variations (the same as Canadian French isn't the same as France French, but France French is the official one).


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## terryl965 (Dec 20, 2010)

leadleg said:


> The style of poomse, 8 taegueks,and the dan forms are one of the most distinct ways to tell if someone is KKW TKD or not.
> It could be that you may get in the door but at some point you would have to learn and teach those specific forms.
> I will wait for Puunui to explain that.
> It is hard enough for KKW guys who have moo duk kwan or other Japanese based kwans to conform to the KKW stances much less change forms.


 
Why wait for puunui to explain it, the KKW does not know who really knows any poomsae or for that matter and KKW techs at all. If you can find a 5th he can sign off on your 4th and you may only know the Chon-ji sets of poomsae. The KKW has no way of knowing if all people that are KKW certified knows anything. Lets Take G.M. Kurban he always tought the Chon-ji sets but yet he is a KKW certified 8th Dan, G.M. Park sign oiff on him. Now I know G.M. Kurban and he has been around for ever, the old PKA he was part of and he even helped bring Won Chik Park over. The point I am making is you do not even have to do any KKW curriculum and you can be KKW certified, people today will pay big money for it, hell the USAT even had special testing for those wishing to get aKKW certificate. The paper is getting less value because so many have it and does not even teach or practice KKW TKD, not even the basic requirement. KKW TKD is a simple complex series, you ahve to add or else every student would not say in TKD.

Last thing the KKW and the WTF are two seperate identities one issue certificates and the other governs sport TKD and yes they say sport TKD on the WTF website.


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## andyjeffries (Dec 20, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> Lets Take G.M. Kurban he always tought the Chon-ji sets but yet he is a KKW certified 8th Dan, G.M. Park sign oiff on him.



Surely then the KKW certificate is invalid.  As much as the Kukkiwon trusts its masters to grade people, there are regulations in place that specify what should be tested (and it includes the Taegeuk series and Yudanja poomsae).  If the test isn't in accordance with the KKW rules then it shouldn't have been given.

That said, I know Koreans are more in to relationships than standards so I can understand this happening.  It's part of life.


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## puunui (Dec 20, 2010)

leadleg said:


> The style of poomse, 8 taegueks,and the dan forms are one of the most distinct ways to tell if someone is KKW TKD or not. It could be that you may get in the door but at some point you would have to learn and teach those specific forms. I will wait for Puunui to explain that.



How this was handled in Korea was through the mandatory Instructor Course that all practitioners had to graduate from if they wanted to open a dojang in Korea. Outside of Korea, the Kukkiwon Instructor Course is voluntary, so we have more diversity. But, if practitioners wish to get promoted to Kukkiwon 8th Dan or higher, they must physically test at the Kukkiwon. So those who live outside of Korea can theortically get promoted to Kukkiwon 7th Dan, but if they want higher rank, then they have to at least practice the yudanja poomsae for their Kukkiwon test. 




leadleg said:


> It is hard enough for KKW guys who have moo duk kwan or other Japanese based kwans to conform to the KKW stances much less change forms.



There shouldn't be any issue between the way the Kukkiwon poomsae are taught and the older stances are taught because they are based on the same stances.


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## miguksaram (Dec 20, 2010)

leadleg said:


> If you look back in history the Koreans did not have sword dueling as they thought it barbaric,


Are you saying straight up challenges or are you talking about the practice of the sword?  The reason why I asked is because part of the training especially in nobility was the practice and use of the sword and bow.  



> If you look at the games they played in early history it included kicking one opponent out of a circle, I believe WTF style sparring is very Korean.


 
Yet, another popular game was two teams hurling stones at each other.  It was not played by the nobles but they were the first to go and watch.


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## puunui (Dec 20, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> They do not police there members at all.



That is only partially true. The Kukkiwon isn't going to send someone to your dojang to check on your curriculum, but students who do not practice the Kukkiwon poomsae will be limited in what they can do. For example, if you do not practice the Taeguek or Yudanja poomsae, then you will not be able to participate at the Kukkiwon's Hanmadang either as a competitor or a referee. That same student will also not be able to successfully pass the Kukkiwon Instructor Course nor any special dan promotion test such as the one held by USAT at US Open.


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## miguksaram (Dec 20, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Absolutely. Japanese karate people tend to think KKW forms look sloppy and unfocused, while I imagine the same KKW people might think Japanese kata look overly rigid.


 
As a Shorei-ryu practitioner, I find the the KKW Poomsae very robotic and stiff.  I would not grade them as sloppy or unfocus.  It is my own personal opinoin that the poomsae lack personality, or umph.  However, I blame my own lack of understanding them more than the forms themselves.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 20, 2010)

puunui said:


> What I am saying is that they were excluded from Kukki Taekwondo, by their own actions. Whether they teach "true" Taekwondo, I guess people can argue about that one all day long. I know there are people out there who feel much more strongly about that issue than I do. Personally, I think we all fall short in one way or another teaching what is the ideal. No one is perfect.
> 
> And GM Hee Il CHO has adopted the Kukkiwon poomsae and is Kukkiwon certified, so I would consider him a Kukkiwon certified master instructor. He even wrote books on the Kukkiwon poomsae.


Which I happen to own.  Great books!

Daniel


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## puunui (Dec 20, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> Why wait for puunui to explain it, the KKW does not know who really knows any poomsae or for that matter and KKW techs at all.



If you graduated from (or failed) the Kukkiwon Instructor Course or the Kukkiwon International Referee course, then the Kukkiwon knows how much in compliance you are.




terryl965 said:


> Lets Take G.M. Kurban he always tought the Chon-ji sets but yet he is a KKW certified 8th Dan, G.M. Park sign oiff on him.



The Kukkiwon requires all candidates for Kukkiwon 8th Dan and higher to physically test at the Kukkiwon. Also, for Kukkiwon 8th Dan and higher, you do not need anyone to "sign off" on your promotion application.




terryl965 said:


> The paper is getting less value because so many have it and does not even teach or practice KKW TKD, not even the basic requirement.



I hope it reaches the point where practitioners realize that rank is meaningless, or for that matter, that rank isn't something that should be so focused on. Better to do it the Korean way and simply look at the person and his actions or what they say and think. 




terryl965 said:


> KKW TKD is a simple complex series, you ahve to add or else every student would not say in TKD.



I feel sad when I hear comments like this. I know many instructors who only teach Kukki Taekwondo and their students stay with them forever. It's not the curriculum, it's the teacher. See my posts on jigsaw puzzles.


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## puunui (Dec 20, 2010)

andyjeffries said:


> As much as the Kukkiwon trusts its masters to grade people, there are regulations in place that specify what should be tested (and it includes the Taegeuk series and Yudanja poomsae).  If the test isn't in accordance with the KKW rules then it shouldn't have been given.




That is stage three thinking, but not everyone is there yet. So we have to continue to practice patience, that one day they will get there. I am just happy that they call what they do Taekwondo and that they are Kukkiwon certified.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 20, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> Are you saying straight up challenges or are you talking about the practice of the sword? The reason why I asked is because part of the training especially in nobility was the practice and use of the sword and bow.


Korea for several centuries followed a path of Neo Confucianism.  Martial arts were for the military.  Korea did not have a warrior or militaristic culture like Japan did.  Nor was dueling popular like it was in western Europe.  

I'm sure that there were duels between people with swords, but it was the exception and not the rule, so codified sword arts did not develop around dueling.  Codified use of the sword was developed by the military as a part of fighting wars, along with codified use of other weapons.

Daniel


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## andyjeffries (Dec 20, 2010)

puunui said:


> That is stage three thinking, but not everyone is there yet. So we have to continue to practice patience, that one day they will get there. I am just happy that they call what they do Taekwondo and that they are Kukkiwon certified.



Sorry, you lost me with "stage three thinking" - what are the stages in thinking?  

Are you referring to the unconscious incompetence -> conscious incompetence -> conscious competence -> unconscious competence scale?


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 20, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> I've been reading the many new TKD threads with great interest. It's nice to have some good discussion on the board and I hope it keeps up.
> 
> One thing I would like to understand better for myself is what exactly is a TKD pioneer? Is it a very select group, such as the kwan heads only and perhaps their senior students. Are it the students who were actually practicing during the Tae Kwon Do/Tae Soo Do/ Kong Soo Do name wars even if they didn't hold leadership positions? Do you have to be part of the KKW or the ITF to qualify as a 'pioneer'?
> 
> ...


Prior to the Kukkiwon's formation, you had the nine kwans.  I'm sure that there was a goodly amount of common goals between them as well as individual goals.  What they did prior to the Kukkiwon was still considered taekwondo.  Some did not join and so you have Hwang Kee's MDK, which I don't think is called Taekwondo, and of course you have the ITF, from which the ATA and later the ITA branced out from, all calling what they do taekwondo.

By and large, I think that there was more commonality of purpose than division.  That commonality is represented in the Kukkiwon curriculum.  The differences may be taught over and above the Kukkiwon curriculum.  If I want to add hapkido hoshinsul to my taekwondo curriculum I may do so and still be Kukkiwon *so long as* I am teaching it in addition to the Kukkiwon curriculum.

Daniel


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## terryl965 (Dec 20, 2010)

*


puunui said:



			If you graduated from (or failed) the Kukkiwon Instructor Course or the Kukkiwon International Referee course, then the Kukkiwon knows how much in compliance you are.
		
Click to expand...

*


puunui said:


> Well first of not every KKW person has done the course because it is not a requirement for rank with them. Heck all the lopezs are KKW Dans and Jean is our Olympic coach and he has never done the instructor course, so I do not see how this pertains to anything I have said.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The KKW curriculum is a basic guidelines of principle techs. Please point in to any instructor that only teaches KKW by the KKW textbook so I can reference them. Because all that I know add more to there set of curriculum to help change and develope there people. To my knowledge there is only one set of curriculum and that is in the copy of the KKW Tae Kwon Do Textbook.

Just an insert from the preface by then Vise President Woon-Kyu Uhm second paragraph Taekwondo has grown to become a martial art sport practiced by people thoughout the world and now is loved for it merits as fitness exercise:therefore, the Korean Taekwondo experts bear the responsibilities for the guidance of other peoples in training them with the upright Taekwondo spirit and modern techniques and skills in accordance with the wishes of President of Kukkiwon Un-Yong Kim who also stresses the dissemination of orthodox traditions of the Korean martial art sport.


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## terryl965 (Dec 20, 2010)

I am going to add this from pages 85-86 of the textbook.....

*Dan/Kup no grade - course basic course -*

*Theories* *Techniques*
value & aim of TKD, warming up exorcise
TKD spirit, how to clench the fist
regulations to be observed by trainees, Basic stances
propriety norms, Basic motion
how to keep and fold the dobok & Belt, Prearrange Kyorugi
meditation, apchagi
names of bodily parts & vital points, yopchagi
dollyochagi


*8th to 4th kup preliminary course*

present statue of TKD, makki
history of TKD attack, dodging
names of vital points, poomsae(Tae Gueks 1-5 or Palgwe 1-5)
basic motion & basic theory of poomsae, footkick

*3rd to probationary Dan preliminary technical course*

concept and definition of TKD poomsae, TG or Palgwe 5-8
competition rules, footkicks
first aids and preventin of injuries free kyorugi, kyokpa, self defense art

I am not even going to list he BB stuff but this is the table of training curriculum as listed on page 85 & 86. If anybody would liek to point me to more of a curriculum that the KKW has I am more than happy to listen and learn because I am all about training and method of training.

One last thing I found interesting on page 86 is that Black belt need to learn more about competition rules and regulation, if it is not a sport than why do we need to learn more about competition? Should we not be more focus on S.D. and our growth as a TKD'er?


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## puunui (Dec 20, 2010)

andyjeffries said:


> Sorry, you lost me with "stage three thinking" - what are the stages in thinking?




If you read the Modern History book, then you will see that the pioneers approached unification on three points. First stage was agreeing on a name, first Taesoodo, then Taekwondo. Next was certifying everyone under a unified organization, first under the KTA, then under the Kukkiwon. Third stage is unification of curriculum, first under the KTA, then under the Kukkiwon. 

Stage one, most practitioners who will call their art Taekwondo have already done so. 

Stage two, the Kukkiwon, through the pioneers, did not discriminate but tried to be as inclusive as possible and gave everyone Kukkiwon certification. 

Stage three, was unification of curriculum, first in Korea through the mandatory Kukkiwon Instructor certification program, and also through the WTF through a unified competition format. If you compare international competition twenty five years ago with today, then you will see much more standardization in competition training methods and performance. You don't see too many people sliding around trying to do front leg hook kick for example anymore. 

Now we are at the stage where we can start thinking about unification of poomsae, through the Kukkiwon instructor course, Hanmadang, including Hanmadang International Referee certification, and WTF World and Regional Poomsae Championships.

Not everyone is up on the latest things though, my point being that we are all in noncompliance in some form or another. Maybe your poomsae is spot on, but then your kyorugi methods are slightly or greatly outdated. Or maybe you produce the world's greatest competitors, but they don't know the Kukkiwon poomsae. Does either of these extreme situations mean that we are not Kukki Taekwondoin? 

The pioneers' approach to unification was that everyone is included, because everyone needs to work on the new stuff. So we start off first by giving everyone Kukkiwon certificates, in the hopes that they will eventually will modernize and update their technical curriculum. There is a section in the Modern History book where the pioneers discuss what is needed in the instructor courses. 

Put another way, it can be said that the Taekwondo pioneers took the same approach that is laid out in the Bible. I am thinking about the parable where seeds were thrown on the ground. Some seeds could not find water or ground and died. Others sprouted but were choked by vines, but still others spouted and became fruitful. 

Using this parable, some would criticize the seeds that did not sprout or is getting choked off by vines. I am just happy that there are seeds out there that if they have not sprouted yet, still have the potential to do so. Criticizing this or that seed because they didn't do this, or they don't do that, or whatever else, does nothing but serve as a vehicle for disunification. We should be welcoming our brothers and cousins into our house, not slamming the door in their face because they happen to practice a different set of forms or speak a different language, tul, hyung, or whatever. 

The pioneers were like that, planting as many seeds as possible in the hopes that as many seeds as possible will sprout and grow. Every leader did this to a certain degree, including GM HWANG Kee and General Choi. They gave out certification to students from other kwan and even other arts who did not know their specific curriculum, so that their art and their cause could grow. 

I believe that the pioneers do get disappointed when practitioners only take their Kukkiwon rank and then do nothing with it, or worse, do things to hurt Taekwondo. But I also believe that their focus is and always has been on the big picture, a picture of a unified Taekwondo which includes as many Taekwondoin as possible.


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## leadleg (Dec 20, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> Are you saying straight up challenges or are you talking about the practice of the sword? The reason why I asked is because part of the training especially in nobility was the practice and use of the sword and bow.
> 
> 
> 
> Yet, another popular game was two teams hurling stones at each other. It was not played by the nobles but they were the first to go and watch.


 I understand the Korean sword was mostly carried on the back,used as a secondary weapon. I also note that in Korean sword practice there is no "drawing of the sword" as seen in Japanese styles.
 In Japan duels were legal,there were no legal duels in Korea. 
I do not know about the sport of throwing stones, I do know I am not going to practice that.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 20, 2010)

leadleg said:


> I understand the Korean sword was mostly carried on the back,used as a secondary weapon.


On the back or hung at the waist, depending on the sword, user, and environment. 

Korean sword arts, such as Haidong Gumdo, which use a wae geom (Japanese sword) worn with in the belt with the edge facing up have lifted this Japanese sword arts. 

Use of the wae geom is delineated in the Muyedobotongji, but it certainly was not a commonly used weapon, and it would not surprise me if the wae geom was worn hung from the belt. The style of wearing the sword is partly influenced by the fashions of the region. The Japanese wore a different style of clothing and thus wore their swords differently. 

Daniel


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## puunui (Dec 20, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> The KKW curriculum is a basic guidelines of principle techs. Please point in to any instructor that only teaches KKW by the KKW textbook so I can reference them. Because all that I know add more to there set of curriculum to help change and develope there people.




I didn't say what you think I said, although I do believe that is what you thought I said. What I said was: *I know many instructors who only teach Kukki Taekwondo and their students stay with them forever.*

That isn't the same thing as what you said, which is: *Please point in to any instructor that only teaches KKW by the KKW textbook *


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## puunui (Dec 20, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> I am going to add this from pages 85-86 of the textbook.....
> *Dan/Kup no grade - course basic course -*



Well, at least you are learning. I can remember just a week or two ago you were telling people the Kukkiwon didn't care about color belts, or something to that effect.




terryl965 said:


> I am not even going to list he BB stuff but this is the table of training curriculum as listed on page 85 & 86. If anybody would liek to point me to more of a curriculum that the KKW has I am more than happy to listen and learn because I am all about training and method of training.



All that stuff is a lot of material to cover. Do you include all of that in your class curriculum, or are some of that left out? 




terryl965 said:


> One last thing I found interesting on page 86 is that Black belt need to learn more about competition rules and regulation, if it is not a sport than why do we need to learn more about competition? Should we not be more focus on S.D. and our growth as a TKD'er?



I think the issue is whether there is a separation between competition or "sport" and Kukkiwon. You believe that it is separated; however this things you are posting from the Kukkiwon Textbook tend to show otherwise.


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## leadleg (Dec 20, 2010)

puunui said:


> How this was handled in Korea was through the mandatory Instructor Course that all practitioners had to graduate from if they wanted to open a dojang in Korea. Outside of Korea, the Kukkiwon Instructor Course is voluntary, so we have more diversity. But, if practitioners wish to get promoted to Kukkiwon 8th Dan or higher, they must physically test at the Kukkiwon. So those who live outside of Korea can theortically get promoted to Kukkiwon 7th Dan, but if they want higher rank, then they have to at least practice the yudanja poomsae for their Kukkiwon test.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 All stances are based on the same stance,of course. 
I am saying those stances as taught for ,say, basai, are done with extreme exageration of depth and length,that is the way that form was meant to be done. 
On the other hand KKW forms are done with a more natural stance, not too deep,not too long. 
 I learned my stances from a shotokan praticioner,my father, then from a moo duk kwan instructor, when I started doing KKW Poomse it was challenging to not drop too low.If you mixed the stances you could not get back to your spot,which meant pushups,I had very strong arms and traps from that experience.
 When I met Dr.Park he explained the forms to me and the direction they should take me.He was at the time on the technical commitee for the WTF. 
So I do know what some people are going through with the stances, and believe some styles of forms should be done with exagerated stances and others with the more natural stance.


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## miguksaram (Dec 20, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Korea for several centuries followed a path of Neo Confucianism. Martial arts were for the military. Korea did not have a warrior or militaristic culture like Japan did. Nor was dueling popular like it was in western Europe.


 
Which is why asked if he was referring to duels or just the practice of martial skills.  Even though they were Neo Cofucianism, they did practice military arts as part of the learning structure.  Since the nobility faction of society went on to be the Generals and officers of the military they had to have those skills as part of their education.  Yes totally different from the way Japan developed their system, but Korea did practice military arts.


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## terryl965 (Dec 20, 2010)

*


puunui said:



			Well, at least you are learning. I can remember just a week or two ago you were telling people the Kukkiwon didn't care about color belts, or something to that effect.
		
Click to expand...

*


puunui said:


> I have never said the KKW did not care about color belts, please point that out to me, what was said was color belt material was very little and I stand by that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I still believe there is and should be, most KKW schools do not focus on sport competition at least in my area. Also the WTF is the ones really governing the sport of TKD.


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## puunui (Dec 20, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> Well first of not every KKW person has done the course because it is not a requirement for rank with them. Heck all the lopezs are KKW Dans and Jean is our Olympic coach and he has never done the instructor course, so I do not see how this pertains to anything I have said.



I was responding to your statement: "the KKW does not know who really knows any poomsae or for that matter and KKW techs at all." by giving you examples of situations where they do know. Also, I don't know if Jean has Kukkiwon dan rank. 




terryl965 said:


> This si true to a point, but not all things are as they seem.



What part of my statement is not true: "The Kukkiwon requires all candidates for Kukkiwon 8th Dan and higher to physically test at the Kukkiwon. Also, for Kukkiwon 8th Dan and higher, you do not need anyone to "sign off" on your promotion application."





terryl965 said:


> The Koreans are the one that says you need the rank, so your point does not hold merit in this instance.



For lower levels, of course you need rank (if you have no Kukkiwon rank for example you cannot promote others to Kukkiwon rank), but there comes a point where rank is meaningless and evaluations of one's skill and ability is done by criteria other than dan rank.


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## terryl965 (Dec 20, 2010)

puunui said:


> I didn't say what you think I said, although I do believe that is what you thought I said. What I said was: *I know many instructors who only teach Kukki Taekwondo and their students stay with them forever.*
> 
> That isn't the same thing as what you said, which is: *Please point in to any instructor that only teaches KKW by the KKW textbook *


 
Ok Puuni you are right I read it wrong, sorry sabout that. I am man enought o say whenI am wrong.

Let me ask you this what do you consider Kukki TKD? I teach KKW TKD with add ons and I believe students need to develope a more stable base to be effective in today world. Not trying to put down th textbook or anything but the KKW needs to update it for today enviroment.


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## terryl965 (Dec 20, 2010)

*


puunui said:



			I was responding to your statement: "the KKW does not know who really knows any poomsae or for that matter and KKW techs at all." by giving you examples of situations where they do know. Also, I don't know if Jean has Kukkiwon dan rank.
		
Click to expand...

*


puunui said:


> Ok I am understanding you know and yes Jean has his KKW or he could not have competed in international events. All competitors must be a KKW Dan holder.
> 
> 
> *What part of my statement is not true: "The Kukkiwon requires all candidates for Kukkiwon 8th Dan and higher to physically test at the Kukkiwon. Also, for Kukkiwon 8th Dan and higher, you do not need anyone to "sign off" on your promotion application."*
> ...




This I agree with but so many know just have there rank though there org. or school and not even worry about KKW anymore except for competitions.


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## miguksaram (Dec 20, 2010)

leadleg said:


> I understand the Korean sword was mostly carried on the back,used as a secondary weapon. I also note that in Korean sword practice there is no "drawing of the sword" as seen in Japanese styles.
> In Japan duels were legal,there were no legal duels in Korea.
> I do not know about the sport of throwing stones, I do know I am not going to practice that.


Koguryo, Paekche and Silla warriors would usually have their swords at their waist or in their hands.  I am not sure off hand when they would ever have had them on their back. You are correct that they did not have an iaido art that they practiced that I am aware of.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 20, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> Koguryo, Paekche and Silla warriors would usually have their swords at their waist or in their hands. I am not sure off hand when they would ever have had them on their back. You are correct that they did not have an iaido art that they practiced that I am aware of.


There is a Korean sword form, Jedok geom (Admiral sword) that draws the sword from the back. It is the only one that I am aware of. I believe that it is performed with a dao or a dao like sword.  But my observations are the same as yours; worn at the waist.  They were generally hung, edge facing down, from the belt rather than worn inside of the belt.

Daniel


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## puunui (Dec 20, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> Let me ask you this what do you consider Kukki TKD?




Kukki Taekwondo from a broad perspective, is anything that is covered in the Kukkiwon Textbook, as well as the modern competition training methods and theories used in today's Taekwondo competition at WTF International Events. The modern training methods, for example, is more than enough material to fill a school curriculum.


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## puunui (Dec 20, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> You are correct that they did not have an iaido art that they practiced that I am aware of.




there is a section on Japanese sword techniques in the Mooyeadobotongji.


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## puunui (Dec 20, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> Ok I am understanding you know and yes Jean has his KKW or he could not  have competed in international events. All competitors must be a KKW Dan  holder.




Back when Jean was competing, they only enforced that at the Olympic Games. I know for example Chavela Aaron didn't have Kukkiwon dan certification when she won silver at the 1991 World Championships. I think USAT covers the Kukkiwon certification now for international athletes.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 20, 2010)

puunui said:


> there is a section on Japanese sword techniques in the Mooyeadobotongji.


Yes (wae geom), but it isn't iaido.

Daniel


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## miguksaram (Dec 20, 2010)

puunui said:


> there is a section on Japanese sword techniques in the Mooyeadobotongji.


Yes, but I do not believe they dwelved into iaido practice.  One of the things I am interested in learning through my history research is the interactions of the Japanese with Koreans where items like the Wae Geum would come into play.  How I have seen the interpreations of the MYDBTJ the Wae Geum does not really resemble that of Japanese swordsmanship.


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## dancingalone (Dec 20, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> As a Shorei-ryu practitioner, I find the the KKW Poomsae very robotic and stiff.  I would not grade them as sloppy or unfocus.  It is my own personal opinoin that the poomsae lack personality, or umph.  However, I blame my own lack of understanding them more than the forms themselves.



I have no idea what a Trias guy might think, but I've friends active in SKIF and JKF.  We've had conversations where the Tae Geuk forms come up, and sloppy and unfocused usually come up at some point in relation to the short stances and the (probably) purposeful lack of kime.  It all depends on where you are standing from, I guess.  That's meant to be more of a statement about relative systems and not anything personal by the way.  Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.


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## puunui (Dec 20, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> We've had conversations where the Tae Geuk forms come up, and sloppy and unfocused usually come up at some point in relation to the short stances and the (probably) purposeful lack of kime.




Are you talking about the Taeguek poomsae performances you've seen in your area? The sloppy I can understand, because up until about 12 or 13 years ago, there was no emphasis or attention given to poomsae. They were just sort of there and no one cared how you did them. But with the opening up of the Kukkiwon Instructor Course as well as the creation of the WTF World Poomsae Championships a few years after that, poomsae is now receiving a lot of attention. 

The walking stances come directly from GM LEE Won Kuk, who learned them from FUNAKOSHI Gichin and Yoshitaka Sensei.


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## dancingalone (Dec 20, 2010)

We are fans of Youtube, and yes, we've seen some championship level poomsae.  Much of the criticism comes from the so-called walking stance.  It has an airy quality about it that many Japanese stylists do not like.  It's probably fair to say that they are children of Nakayama, Matayoshi in this respect.


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## puunui (Dec 20, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> We are fans of Youtube, and yes, we've seen some championship level poomsae.  Much of the criticism comes from the so-called walking stance.  It has an airy quality about it that many Japanese stylists do not like.  It's probably fair to say that they are children of Nakayama, Matayoshi in this respect.




As an Okinawan stylist, do you agree with the Japanese point of view? We have several Okinawan based karate practitioners here, and their stances, at least the Shorin Ryu based ones, tend to have more relaxed, higher stances. I am told one of the reasons is that if an Okinawan born practitioner got low and deep in their stances, then they would end up punching people in their ankles, because the people are so short. Being short, and naturally mobile, the higher more mobile stance would suit their build and fighting style, especially against larger armed opponents, in China and Japan.


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## dancingalone (Dec 20, 2010)

puunui said:


> As an Okinawan stylist, do you agree with the Japanese point of view?



Actually, no, but I never said I did.    "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder."  There are aspects about every style that someone can nitpick at.

I trained for a time in some Chinese arts like cha quan and tai chi quan.  They are the antithesis of Japanese hard style karate.

Yet, I can appreciate what the Japanese karate people are looking for and I can understand why they might not like certain aspects of Korean poomsae.


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## puunui (Dec 20, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Yet, I can appreciate what the Japanese karate people are looking for and I can understand why they might not like certain aspects of Korean poomsae.




I took shotokan for four years and I believe it helped me with the Kukkiwon poomsae, with precision as well as the mentality of high reps for basics. I was going to take Okinawan karate because it does feel different in mentality and focus from what I remember of Shotokan.


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## dancingalone (Dec 20, 2010)

puunui said:


> I took shotokan for four years and I believe it helped me with the Kukkiwon poomsae, with precision as well as the mentality of high reps for basics. I was going to take Okinawan karate because it does feel different in mentality and focus from what I remember of Shotokan.



Absolutely.  You can learn something valuable from any art.  I myself always enjoy the more detailed descriptions of KKW kicking and sparring drills posted here from time to time by some of competitors and/or their parents.


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## puunui (Dec 20, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Absolutely.  You can learn something valuable from any art.  I myself always enjoy the more detailed descriptions of KKW kicking and sparring drills posted here from time to time by some of competitors and/or their parents.




I wanted to take Okinawan Karate because one of my good friends has been training there for 35 years. The class is very small and relaxed but not in an undisciplined way. I wanted to learn their kata so I can compare it to the Kukkiwon poomsae. The head instructor has a lot of insight in applications and that sort of stuff which he learned in Okinawa when he lived there. It isn't the reverse engineered stuff that that "75 Down Blocks" guy made up on his own. 

I remember trying to be open to his stuff. But then I looked in his book and he showed this push pull strike using a knife hand strike, where the non-blocking hand pulls while the knife hand block strikes the opponent in the neck. I asked him whether that was one of the hidden moves contained in the Okinawan kata and he said yes. Then I told him the Okinawan kata didn't do push pull but instead both arms sweep backwards and then both go forwards, which of course any Taekwondoin would know. Another thing on the down block. He shows all these down blocks with the same push pull motion, but then I saw a video of a very old Shotokan training film which showed that there was no chambering of the non-blocking hand but instead the non blocking hand remained on the hip while the down block ended up being essentially a one armed maneuver. 

That kind of stuff really turned me off to the whole hidden pressure point knockout thing popularized by Sensei George Dillman. Now they are doing books finding hidden pressure point stuff in the Taekwondo forms. 

I guess this is the sort of thing people like to spend their time doing, but personally I would rather spend my time understanding my own art from the perspective of the pioneers than make this kind of thing up as I went along.


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## dancingalone (Dec 20, 2010)

puunui said:


> I remember trying to be open to his stuff. But then I looked in his book and he showed this push pull strike using a knife hand strike, where the non-blocking hand pulls while the knife hand block strikes the opponent in the neck. I asked him whether that was one of the hidden moves contained in the Okinawan kata and he said yes. *Then I told him the Okinawan kata didn't do push pull but instead both arms sweep backwards and then both go forwards*, which of course any Taekwondoin would know. Another thing on the down block. He shows all these down blocks with the same push pull motion, but then I saw a video of a very old Shotokan training film which showed that there was no chambering of the non-blocking hand but instead the non blocking hand remained on the hip while the down block ended up being essentially a one armed maneuver.



Honestly, all the Shorin-ryu variations I know of do not sweep the knifehand block backwards before going forwards again.  It comes up and goes out in a less rigid fashion than Shotokan and the feeling is looser, but you can see the kinship Shotokan has with Shorin-ryu in this respect.  The kata Kusanku (Kanku-dai in Shotokan) is a good place to examine this.

This is Seibukan Shorin-ryu..  The performer is Shimabukuro, Zenpo, whose father was a student of Kyan, Chotoku.
[yt]56NlyLiquAs[/yt]

Here is another performance by Shimabukuro of the same kata with a different camera angle.  The hands do not sweep backwards before coming forwards, unlike as is typically done in TKD.
[yt]5xAp7uCWpfE[/yt]

This is Nagazato, Shugoro from Shorinkan Shorin-ryu.
[yt]znNZKMaBVDg[/yt]


This is Makishi, Yasuhiro from Matsubayashi-ryu.
[yt]a80oWjKKAXY[/yt]

Finally, this is the Shotokan version of the same kata by Kanazawa, who I believe you have some lineage with.  Funny but he shows a bigger back swing than the other gentlemen do.
[yt]iWIuiBLjIao[/yt]


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## dancingalone (Dec 20, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Prior to the Kukkiwon's formation, you had the nine kwans.  I'm sure that there was a goodly amount of common goals between them as well as individual goals.  What they did prior to the Kukkiwon was still considered taekwondo.  *Some did not join and so you have Hwang Kee's MDK, which I don't think is called Taekwondo*, and of course you have the ITF, from which the ATA and later the ITA branced out from, all calling what they do taekwondo.
> 
> By and large, I think that there was more commonality of purpose than division.  That commonality is represented in the Kukkiwon curriculum.  The differences may be taught over and above the Kukkiwon curriculum.  If I want to add hapkido hoshinsul to my taekwondo curriculum I may do so and still be Kukkiwon *so long as* I am teaching it in addition to the Kukkiwon curriculum.
> 
> Daniel



"*Some did not join and so you have Hwang Kee's MDK, which I don't think is called Taekwondo*,"

Oddly enough in Texas, there's a decent sized contingent of people who call themselves Moo Duk Kwan Tae Kwon Do.  They're people who left Hwang, Kee at some point and they still practice the Japanese forms albeit with Korean names and terminology.


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## puunui (Dec 20, 2010)

Wow, that was pretty good, not so much on the idea of no sweep back on the knife hand block, but for the fact that there were  chun in steps, the follow foot, all kinds of stuff that we use in Taekwondo competition sparring. And there were walking stances in there as well. I just talked to my shorin ryu friend and he said that kusanku is one of main kata of shorin ryu. Maybe I should learn this one. I like the Okinawan version better than the Shotokan version. And you are right Kanazawa Sensei is in my Shotokan lineage, through Sensei Ken Funakoshi. 

But I did notice that there was no push pull action on the knife hand blocks. My Shorin Ryu friend said that there wouldn't be a sweep back, at least not on that kata, because the knife hand is a pressing motion, and you want to keep the pressure on. So the Shotokan way of doing it changes the movement and the intention of the move.


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## puunui (Dec 20, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Oddly enough in Texas, there's a decent sized contingent of people who call themselves Moo Duk Kwan Tae Kwon Do.  They're people who left Hwang, Kee at some point and they still practice the Japanese forms albeit with Korean names and terminology.



GM HWANG Kee was ahead of his time in many ways. One way is that he set up the Moo Duk Kwan as a democratically run organization, with a Board of Directors to make decisions. He talks about this in his History of Moo Duk Kwan book. 

The problem came when GM Hwang refused to join the Taekwondo movement due to his conflicts with General Choi. The other directors did not have the same feelings and so they voted to join and unify under the KTA. GM Hwang got really upset at getting outvoted on this issue that he pulled back and claimed the organization was his. There led the split between the Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan and the Taekwondo Moo Duk Kwan. At least 80% or more of the Moo Duk Kwan members chose to go the Taekwondo route, with very few staying with GM Hwang.


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## dancingalone (Dec 20, 2010)

puunui said:


> Wow, that was pretty good, not so much on the idea of no sweep back on the knife hand block, but for the fact that there were  chun in steps, the follow foot, all kinds of stuff that we use in Taekwondo competition sparring.



Could you enlighten me as to what 'chun in steps' are?



puunui said:


> And there were walking stances in there as well.



The extremely short front stance is very noticeable in Matsubayashi-ryu.  They also often rise on fundamental combinations which might be pleasing to ITF TKD people as well.  An example would be the very common down block in a left front stance to the left 90 degrees.  The second movement is a step in the same direction with a lunge punch in the right front stance, except the stance is very short and there is a visible snap elevation as the performer straightens UP into the punch.



puunui said:


> I just talked to my shorin ryu friend and he said that kusanku is one of main kata of shorin ryu. Maybe I should learn this one. I like the Okinawan version better than the Shotokan version. And you are right Kanazawa Sensei is in my Shotokan lineage, through Sensei Ken Funakoshi.



Kusanku is one of the early dan kata usually.  The Pinan kata prepare you for it, and there is some speculation that Itosu, 'Anko' created the Pinan kata from out of either Kusanku or Channan, a lost kata.



puunui said:


> But I did notice that there was no push pull action on the knife hand blocks. My Shorin Ryu friend said that there wouldn't be a sweep back, at least not on that kata, because the knife hand is a pressing motion, and you want to keep the pressure on. So the Shotokan way of doing it changes the movement and the intention of the move.



<shrugs>  It depends on the particular application you are practicing.  When I was taught Kusanku originally the description given to me called for the classic shuto strikes.  Then when I learned it from my teacher, he showed me the hooking and collapsing interpretations, but certainly I was far more advanced at this stage.  Kata applications are mutable, as they should be.


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## dancingalone (Dec 20, 2010)

puunui said:


> that there were  chun in steps, the follow foot, all kinds of stuff that we use in Taekwondo competition sparring. And there were walking stances in there as well.



By the way, do you feel KKW taekwondo was influenced by Okinawan karate?  My thought was that the upright, short stances were adopted because of how TKD sparring competition evolved, rather than because of any purposeful decision to emulate Okinawan karate styles, such as Shorin-ryu.


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## chrispillertkd (Dec 20, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> The extremely short front stance is very noticeable in Matsubayashi-ryu. They also often rise on fundamental combinations which might be pleasing to ITF TKD people as well. An example would be the very common down block in a left front stance to the left 90 degrees. The second movement is a step in the same direction with a lunge punch in the right front stance, except the stance is very short and there is a visible snap elevation as the performer straightens UP into the punch.


 
While there are some teachniques in ITF Taekwon-Do that are executed while standing up (such as one of the front strikes with the knife-hand in Ul-Ji, the palm hooking blocks in Yoo-Sin and Ju-Che) most hand techniques are performed while _dropping_ the body slightly. There is an initial flexing of the knees to spring the body upwards slightly and then the body is dropped into the strike, punch or block. FWIW.

Pax,

Chris


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## chrispillertkd (Dec 20, 2010)

Nice clips of Kusanku, dancingalone. 

Do you know why most of the performers lean the body slightly forward while performing the first motion where the hands are brought together and then raised above the head? 

I notice that Kanazawa does not do this in his kata (and the beginning of his performance is quite similar to Kwang-Gae tul) and imagine this changes the application somewhat. Any idea what the Shotokan application of this move is?

Pax,

Chris


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## dancingalone (Dec 20, 2010)

chrispillertkd said:


> Do you know why most of the performers lean the body slightly forward while performing the first motion where the hands are brought together and then raised above the head?



I'm sure there's not any one 'right' answer.  The explanations I am aware of include:

_Symbolism_:  Kusanku is supposed to be a heavenly form, so it starts out with an embracing of the earth first before going to the dualistic sky.

_Muscular/breathing nuance_:  You are contracting your abdominal region on this motion before relaxing/expanding them for the up and out movement when the hands separate

_Practical Bunkai_:  The lean forward can be interpreted as a version of the 'sprawl' take down defense 




chrispillertkd said:


> I notice that Kanazawa does not do this in his kata (and the beginning of his performance is quite similar to Kwang-Gae tul) and imagine this changes the application somewhat. Any idea what the Shotokan application of this move is?



No idea about the Shotokan application, but you'll notice they generally keep their torsos straight and centered over the hips at all times.


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## chrispillertkd (Dec 20, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> I'm sure there's not any one 'right' answer. The explanations I am aware of include:
> 
> _Symbolism_: Kusanku is supposed to be a heavenly form, so it starts out with an embracing of the earth first before going to the dualistic sky.


 
After hearing all the talk by some of the bunkai experts about how all movements in kata have I kind of assumed there were no symbolic movements in Okinawan kata. (In fact, I was told that was the case by a pretty well known "expert" but that's another story.) Not that symbolism rules out an actual combat or self-defense application, of course. A friend of mine who is a CMA practitioner told me about a movement in White Eyebrow kung-fu that symbolizes a monk stroking his beard, but its martial application is a block, for example. But this particular gentleman seemed quite adamant.



> _Muscular/breathing nuance_: You are contracting your abdominal region on this motion before relaxing/expanding them for the up and out movement when the hands separate


 
I know Sanchin concentrates a lot on breathing. Does this type of breathing relate to that found in Sanchin at all? Or are there different breathing methods found in Okinawan karate, depending on what one is doing at the time?



> _ Practical Bunkai_: The lean forward can be interpreted as a version of the 'sprawl' take down defense


 
I've seen some Isshin Ryu bunkai where the movement is used to keep an attacker at bay or impede his movement forwards and keep him out of front kick range but a variation of "the sprawl" seems interesting. I presume this application would depend on changing the footing quite a bit since the stance as it is in the kata wouldn't be very stable against an oncoming attacker. 

Pax,

Chris


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## dancingalone (Dec 20, 2010)

chrispillertkd said:


> After hearing all the talk by some of the bunkai experts about how all movements in kata have I kind of assumed there were no symbolic movements in Okinawan kata. (In fact, I was told that was the case by a pretty well known "expert" but that's another story.) Not that symbolism rules out an actual combat or self-defense application, of course. A friend of mine who is a CMA practitioner told me about a movement in White Eyebrow kung-fu that symbolizes a monk stroking his beard, but its martial application is a block, for example. But this particular gentleman seemed quite adamant.



Some lineages are more prone to have symbolism than others.  Nagamine Sensei for example of Matsubayashi-ryu was also an Okinawan folk dance enthusiast and he reportedly adopted some movements from dancing as a result, though I can't think of a solid example off the top of my head.  Nagamine is known to have sanitized the lives of some of the elder Okinawan karate experts in his book _Tales of Okinawa's Great Masters_ and he may have deliberately obscured some of the more violent techniques contained within kata when he became a teacher himself.



chrispillertkd said:


> I know Sanchin concentrates a lot on breathing. Does this type of breathing relate to that found in Sanchin at all?



Not too much from my training perspective.  Sanchin is primarily about building strength and the ability ultimately to accept strikes to the body and yet emerge unharmed from them.  This particular expansion in Kusanku is more about a dynamic burst of power.



chrispillertkd said:


> Or are there different breathing methods found in Okinawan karate, depending on what one is doing at the time?



Yes, there can be.  There is cleansing breathing.  There is the reverse breathing, similar to yogic practices.  There is martial breathing meant to create power in conjunction with your muscle contraction.  Ki building...sanchin/iron shirt...

And they all are based on simple in-out cycles at first.





chrispillertkd said:


> I've seen some Isshin Ryu bunkai where the movement is used to keep an attacker at bay or impede his movement forwards and keep him out of front kick range but a variation of "the sprawl" seems interesting. I presume this application would depend on changing the footing quite a bit since the stance as it is in the kata wouldn't be very stable against an oncoming attacker.



One of the principles for extracting useful bunkai is to not get too caught up in the embusen or floor pattern of the kata.  This maxim would seem to apply in this case.


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## SahBumNimRush (Dec 21, 2010)

puunui said:


> GM HWANG Kee was ahead of his time in many ways. One way is that he set up the Moo Duk Kwan as a democratically run organization, with a Board of Directors to make decisions. He talks about this in his History of Moo Duk Kwan book.
> 
> The problem came when GM Hwang refused to join the Taekwondo movement due to his conflicts with General Choi. The other directors did not have the same feelings and so they voted to join and unify under the KTA. GM Hwang got really upset at getting outvoted on this issue that he pulled back and claimed the organization was his. There led the split between the Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan and the Taekwondo Moo Duk Kwan. At least 80% or more of the Moo Duk Kwan members chose to go the Taekwondo route, with very few staying with GM Hwang.




Yup, I am of the Taekwondo Moo Duk Kwan lineage myself.  Although, I'm not exactly sure where my KJN split, because we still practice all of the Shotokan form sets; not the KKW forms.  The Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan/ Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan/ Taekwondo Moo Duk Kwan has underwent so many splinters over the years that the splinters look slightly different from one another.  For instance, we do not practice the "Chinese influenced forms"  Yuk Ro Hyungs, and Chil Sung Hyungs.  Some of the Shotokan forms look "softer" in some splinters of the Moo Duk Kwan; Look at GM Chun Sik KIM's ITF.


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## Archtkd (Dec 21, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> This is Seibukan Shorin-ryu.. The performer is Shimabukuro, Zenpo, whose father was a student of Kyan, Chotoku. [/yt]


 
Thanks. This was very nice. Great to watch and see so many elements of that kata injected into KKW poomsae.


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## puunui (Dec 21, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Could you enlighten me as to what 'chun in steps' are?



A chun jin step is a sliding step forward without changing your stance (same foot remains in front). You can do it three basic ways. First way, the beginning way, is to slide your back foot up to your front foot, then slide your front foot forward. Second way is to slide your front foot up and then drag the back foot up. The third way is to slide both feet at the same time.

A who jin step is the same basic thing, except you are moving backwards. 

The steps were introduced into Taekwondo competition by Jidokwan GM LEE Byung Ro, who was a student under GM CHUN Sang Sup and was later an instructor at the Han Guk Che Yuk Kwan with GM LEE Chong Woo. GM Chun had these series of drills based on stepping and kicking with roundhouse. GM LEE Byung Ro died early, I want to say in 1982, and he was the first actual Taekwondo practitioner to receive the Kukkiwon 10th Dan. His best friend was Han Moo Kwan founder GM LEE Kyo Yun, who he studied with under GM CHUN Sang Sup.


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## puunui (Dec 21, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> By the way, do you feel KKW taekwondo was influenced by Okinawan karate?  My thought was that the upright, short stances were adopted because of how TKD sparring competition evolved, rather than because of any purposeful decision to emulate Okinawan karate styles, such as Shorin-ryu.




The short upright stances were adopted because that is what GM LEE Won Kuk learned under FUNAKOSHI Gichin Sensei and his son Yoshitaka Sensei. GM Lee originally taught short narrow stances in the 1940's. But after he left, the students, fascinated by Japanese Karate (see Paul Crane's Korean Patterns) would visit frequently on exchange trips and the like. Dr. YOON Kwe Byung facilitated this greatly due to the fact that he school he founded in Japan, the Kanbukan (Han Moo Kwan in Korean), was still in operation. The school is now known as the Renbukan. 

Anyway, Japanese karate has those long and wide stances, and so the Korean pioneers, seeing those, adopted it as well. Then GM LEE Won Kuk came back to Korea in June 1967, and seeing all the long wide stances, gave a series of seminars on the original method (short and narrow). This was exactly the time when the KTA's adhoc committee was busy creating the Palgwae and Yudanja forms. So the committee adopted the original short narrow stances advocated by GM LEE Won Kuk, as taught to him by Gichin Sensei and Yoshitaka Sensei. 

So I guess my answer is yes, I feel that Okinawan Karate played a large part in the development of Taekwondo as far as the technical aspects. GM Lee and for that matter the other founders like GM YOON Byung In, GM CHUN Sang Sup and GM RO Byung Jick also learned from Okinawan born instructors, not Japanese born instructors. 

What Taekwondo adopted from the Japanese were the standardized uniform, the belt ranking system, the system of warm ups which I believe came from the Japanese military, and the emphasis on competition rather than self defense (like Judo and Kendo, the arts that Karate, Shotokan especially was trying to emulate), as well as the strict military like tone and feeling of the class. The Japanese mentality of Bushido was adopted because there was no elevation of the warrior class in Korea.


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## SahBumNimRush (Dec 22, 2010)

I know this thread has morphed a bit, but reply to the OP:

I think part of the problem is semantics, which is often a problem 

There are two common definitions of the word "Pioneer"

_a_ *:* a person or group that originates orhttp://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pioneer# helps open up a new line of thought or activity or a new method or technical development    _b_ *:* one of the first to settle in a territory

From Puunui's point of view, he is focusing on the originators/innovators of Kukki TKD, I believe.  But many of us look at our lineages from that second definition of pioneer, those who first brought TKD to new territory.  From my perspective both are accurate, but are certainly different definitions.  Some of the TKD Pioneers fit both definitions, although my KJN only fits into the latter category.  

My KJN was the first to bring TKD to West Virginia back in the late 1960's, so in my eyes he is certainly a TKD pioneer.  Others who view a TKD Pioneer as a Kukki originator/innovator may disagree with me, because it does not fit their definition.  

It is similar to TKD, many have different visions of what TKD is and what it should be.  If you fall under Kukki TKD, then you may have a clear definition of what that is.  If you are not Kukki, then you may have a very different vision of what TKD is and where you believe it should be going.  I don't believe anyone's vision is wrong, just different.  The problem lies in the fact that everyone is under the umbrella of TKD, and we all feel strongly about our own beliefs.  So it can be easy to strongly disagree with another's point of view, and I do my best to be objective and open minded when speaking with others that have different point of views on this subject.  

After all, that's one of the best ways to learn!


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## dancingalone (Dec 22, 2010)

puunui said:


> GM Lee and for that matter the other founders like GM YOON Byung In, GM CHUN Sang Sup and GM RO Byung Jick also learned from Okinawan born instructors, not Japanese born instructors.



Funakoshi, Gigo > Lee, Won Kuk
Toyama, Kanken > Yoon, Byung In

Do you know which Okinawan taught Chun and Ro?


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## SahBumNimRush (Dec 22, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Funakoshi, Gigo > Lee, Won Kuk
> Toyama, Kanken > Yoon, Byung In
> 
> Do you know which Okinawan taught Chun and Ro?



I am not sure about CHUN, but I've read that RO studied with LEE Won Kuk under Gichen Funakoshi.  Which makes sense, since RO was the founder of the Song Moo Kwan, which is obviously derived from the name Song Do Kwan (a.k.a Shotokan).


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## puunui (Dec 22, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Funakoshi, Gigo > Lee, Won Kuk
> Toyama, Kanken > Yoon, Byung In
> 
> Do you know which Okinawan taught Chun and Ro?




GM LEE Won Kuk learned under both Gichin Sensei as well as his son Yoshitaka or (Gigo) Sensei. However, GM Lee said that the majority of his training was under the son, who GM Lee felt was more technically accurate and precise than the father. Both GM Lee and Yoshitaka Sensei worked during the day, so they would both train at night, while Gichin Sensei handled the day classes. 

GM Lee said that GM RO Byung Jick learned from Gichin Sensei during the day classes and did not really attend the night classes. He said that GM Ro could not read or write hanja (chinese characters) so the story of him attending college while in Japan was false. GM Lee said that GM Ro was only in Japan for a short while and went back to Korea in the late 1930's, but that he did see GM Ro at the Shotokan wearing a black belt, so he knows that GM Ro received at least 1st Dan from Gichin Sensei. After GM Lee returned to Korea, GM Ro joined the Chung Do Kwan and learned from GM Lee before opening his own dojang in Kaesong in I believe 1947. GM Lee said that before GM Ro opened his Kaesong dojang, he promoted GM Ro to Chung Do Kwan 6th or 7th Dan, which was the highest dan attainable under the Chung Do Kwan bylaws. So GM Ro went from Shotokan 1st Dan to Chung Do Kwan 6th or 7th Dan. 

GM CHUN Sang Sup's history is a little more sketchy. It is said that he was a student at Takushoku University and learned Shotokan there. I don't know if he received dan ranking or not. 

What I do know is that he and GM YOON Byung In were inseparable during the late 1940's and were always training together and going up through North Korea to Manchuria to learn and train. GM Lee said that those two were so close that it was sometimes hard to tell them apart. GM Lee said that he, GM Ro, GM Chun and GM Yoon tried to work out together a few times but GM Chun and GM Yoon's methods were different so they stopped.


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## dancingalone (Dec 22, 2010)

To your knowledge, do any physical records exist in Japan that corroborate any of the Korean kwang jang training there?  I had understood the only surviving/known record is Toyama, Kanken acknowledging Yoon, Byung In as 4th dan and shihan in his book/register of Shudokan karate.  

I think someone here on MT said Yoon, Kwae-Byung also trained at the Shudokan, but I am not sure or not if he was listed in the registry himself.  That book is listed from time to time on Ebay by a rare karate book dealer.  It would be interesting to be able to confirm the two Yoons visually myself.  Maybe one of these days.


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## puunui (Dec 22, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> To your knowledge, do any physical records exist in Japan that corroborate any of the Korean kwang jang training there?  I had understood the only surviving/known record is Toyama, Kanken acknowledging Yoon, Byung In as 4th dan and shihan in his book/register of Shudokan karate.



I am sure that GM Lee and GM Ro, and maybe GM Chun would be listed in the Shotokan promotion records. The problem is that the Shotokan burned down I believe in 1945, so all those records might be lost.




dancingalone said:


> I think someone here on MT said Yoon, Kwae-Byung also trained at the Shudokan, but I am not sure or not if he was listed in the registry himself.  That book is listed from time to time on Ebay by a rare karate book dealer.  It would be interesting to be able to confirm the two Yoons visually myself.  Maybe one of these days.



I saw both GM YOON Byung In and Dr. YOON Kwe Byung listed on a webpage as shihan under Toyama Sensei. It was in a listing taken from one of his books, with a whole bunch of other Japanese names. I don't know if that webpage is still up or not.


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## dancingalone (Dec 22, 2010)

puunui said:


> I am sure that GM Lee and GM Ro, and maybe GM Chun would be listed in the Shotokan promotion records. The problem is that the Shotokan burned down I believe in 1945, so all those records might be lost.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yep.  That's pretty much my current understanding that Yoon, Byung In is the only Korean with a physical record documenting his karate rank, although certainly other Koreans undoubtedly trained karate in Japan during the same period.

I've tried to find that webpage you reference.  If it is off the WKF site, unfortunately it's a dead link, and ultimately we'd want to source the actual book itself anyway for academic interest.


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## puunui (Dec 22, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> I've tried to find that webpage you reference.  If it is off the WKF site, unfortunately it's a dead link, and ultimately we'd want to source the actual book itself anyway for academic interest.




I understand what you are trying to say, but I don't think there is any question about GM YOON Kwe Byung's training in Japan. If you want to see a reference, try getting the Renbukan books by Ron Marchini. In the beginning there is a short section on Dr. Yoon, including a picture, and it explains the evolution of the renbukan system. Also there is an article by Eric Madis about his efforts to document Dr. Yoon's training in Japan. The article is in a book with a lot of other articles on different martial arts topics. I can get you the name of the book if you want. I have it but it is at home.


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## Archtkd (Dec 23, 2010)

puunui said:


> I understand what you are trying to say, but I don't think there is any question about GM YOON Kwe Byung's training in Japan. If you want to see a reference, try getting the Renbukan books by Ron Marchini. In the beginning there is a short section on Dr. Yoon, including a picture, and it explains the evolution of the renbukan system. Also there is an article by Eric Madis about his efforts to document Dr. Yoon's training in Japan. The article is in a book with a lot of other articles on different martial arts topics. I can get you the name of the book if you want. I have it but it is at home.



This two well researched articles by Robert Mclain offer some good background on the subject.

http://www.arlingtonkarate.com/articles/CMKstory.pdf
http://kimsookarate.com/intro/yoon/Byung_In_YoonrevMay3.pdf


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## puunui (Dec 23, 2010)

Archtkd said:


> This two well researched articles by Robert Mclain offer some good background on the subject.
> 
> http://www.arlingtonkarate.com/articles/CMKstory.pdf
> http://kimsookarate.com/intro/yoon/Byung_In_YoonrevMay3.pdf




I think Mr. McClain focuses on GM YOON Byung In, the YMCA Kwon Bup Bu founder. GM YOON Kwe Byung is the person who became Jidokwan president after GM CHUN Sang Sup disappeared.


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## Archtkd (Dec 23, 2010)

puunui said:


> The short upright stances were adopted because that is what GM LEE Won Kuk learned under FUNAKOSHI Gichin Sensei and his son Yoshitaka Sensei. GM Lee originally taught short narrow stances in the 1940's. But after he left, the students, fascinated by Japanese Karate (see Paul Crane's Korean Patterns) would visit frequently on exchange trips and the like. Dr. YOON Kwe Byung facilitated this greatly due to the fact that he school he founded in Japan, the Kanbukan (Han Moo Kwan in Korean), was still in operation. The school is now known as the Renbukan.
> 
> Anyway, Japanese karate has those long and wide stances, and so the Korean pioneers, seeing those, adopted it as well. Then GM LEE Won Kuk came back to Korea in June 1967, and seeing all the long wide stances, gave a series of seminars on the original method (short and narrow). This was exactly the time when the KTA's adhoc committee was busy creating the Palgwae and Yudanja forms. So the committee adopted the original short narrow stances advocated by GM LEE Won Kuk, as taught to him by Gichin Sensei and Yoshitaka Sensei.
> 
> ...


 
Very interesting. Puunui, I don't agree with everything you say, but your arrival on the MT boards and "debate with facts" style has enlivened the level of discourse in Taekwondo threads significantly. Thanks


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## puunui (Dec 23, 2010)

Archtkd said:


> Very interesting. Puunui, I don't agree with everything you say, but your arrival on the MT boards and "debate with facts" style has enlivened the level of discourse in Taekwondo threads significantly. Thanks




I don't expect everyone to agree with me. But if you do disagree, I would like to see a factual explanation as to why, instead of the usual "I strongly disagree because that is how I feel and nothing you can say will change my mind". I don't think that kind of discussion is productive at all. 

People ask all these questions, and I don't mind attempting to answer because in doing so, it forces me to organize and re-organize my thoughts on the subject. I like it when people come at me from all different angles, as long as what they come from an informed space. People like dancingalone show up with facts and a different perspective, and so a discussion between us can really lead to someplace new for the both of us. I learn as much as anyone by participating in these types of discussions. 

So if there are questions that have been nagging at some of you, by all means ask it. Maybe a vigorous discussion can bring to light points of view that we haven't yet considered.


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## KarateMomUSA (Dec 26, 2010)

puunui said:


> I don't expect everyone to agree with me. But if you do disagree, I would like to see a factual explanation as to why, instead of the usual "I strongly disagree because that is how I feel and nothing you can say will change my mind". I don't think that kind of discussion is productive at all.
> 
> People ask all these questions, and I don't mind attempting to answer because in doing so, it forces me to organize and re-organize my thoughts on the subject. I like it when people come at me from all different angles, as long as what they come from an informed space. People like dancingalone show up with facts and a different perspective, and so a discussion between us can really lead to someplace new for the both of us. I learn as much as anyone by participating in these types of discussions.
> 
> So if there are questions that have been nagging at some of you, by all means ask it. Maybe a vigorous discussion can bring to light points of view that we haven't yet considered.


Great attitude


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## KarateMomUSA (Dec 26, 2010)

I would say that a Pioneer is someone who "blazed the trail".
So 7 Koreans took martial arts back to Korea in the 1940s. 6 of these men opened the 6 early kwans. Dr. Yoon helped with the Jidokwan. They can also be looked upon as the founders of the 5 original civilian kwans or the founders of the 6 early kwans.

The 1st 2 TKD Pioneers that actually left south Korea with TKD instructor listed as their occupation on their passports were Choi Chang Keun & Rhee Ki Ha.
Nam Tae Hi led military TKD instructors to south Vietnam in Dec of 1962.
Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim went to Malaysia to assist Gen Choi in 1963. From there Mr Kim spread TKD to other locales in sout east Asia for Gen Choi, which became a base for the ITF. Of course Gen Choi introduced TKD to Malaysia in 1962. He then led a govt sponsored Kukki TKD goodwill tour around the wolrd in 1965, distributing the 1st English language book on TKD. He was accompanied by Han Cha Kyo, Kwon Jae Hwa, Park Jong Soo & a Mr. Kim. Mr. Park then introduced TKD to west Germany, Holland & other parts of Europe before he moved to Toronto Canada. Mr Kwon Jae Hwa is also considered the Pioneer of TKD in Germany.
Of course there were many others, some even preceeding these gentleman. However they did not so so at the time, under the TKD banner, so you must make a determination of how that should be viewed.

There were also the all important second generation students from the 5 original kwans that came to make Kukki TKD, so as Uhm Un Kyu, Lee Nam Suk & lee Chong Woo, among many others.


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