# Zones of Protection.......



## Goldendragon7 (May 22, 2002)

When do you require the student to know about this "Kenpo Tool" and what do you teach them about them?
:asian:


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## OZman (May 22, 2002)

Mr. C.
Are you asking for belt level, or as a general point


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## Kirk (May 22, 2002)

What is the "Kenpo Tool" ??


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## AvPKenpo (May 22, 2002)

Kirk, 

I believe he is referring to Zones of Protection as a "Kenpo Tool",  becuase it is a unique principal to Kenpo (although I would imagine there are other arts that use it, not sure of which ones though).

Michael


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## Nightingale (May 22, 2002)

we're told that our blocks, checks and strikes make up an "imaginary wall of protection."  my instructor says this to get the white belts to not keep their guard too close to their body.  not sure if that's what you mean, but if so, we are introduced to the concept as white belts, and once we get the blocks and guard in the right places, it is usually not mentioned again because it becomes ingrained in what we do so much that we don't think about it.


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## Goldendragon7 (May 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by OZman _
> *Are you asking for belt level, or as a general point *



Just as to if they use this tool, and if they do how do they introduce it into their normal teaching.  What examples are used depth of the tool etc.

:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (May 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *What is the "Kenpo Tool" ??
> *



A "Kenpo Tool" is a term I coined which referrers to one of the many Key Elements (tools) to our System.  

A few Examples....

Analytical Study of Motion
3 Divisions of the Art
Principles
Zones
8 Considerations
Web of Knowledge
Universal Pattern
3 points of view
Outer Rim
others.......

:asian:


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## Kirk (May 22, 2002)

I'm an orange belt, and I haven't heard of the term "Zone of
Protection" yet.  We *cancel* height, width, and depth
zones, though.  Does this relate?

Also, we have a *Zone Of Sanctuary* which is when
we step back, to the side at X angle, or step forward at X angle, 
to cancel some, most, or all of the attacker's weapons.  Is
this related to a Zone Of Protection?


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## Les (May 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *I'm an orange belt, and I haven't heard of the term "Zone of
> Protection" yet.  We cancel height, width, and depth
> ...



Kirk, you're on the right track with this one.

My understanding is that the "zones of "protection" is basically about not letting your opponent control your height, width & depth.

But then it gets a bit more involved as we delve into Quadrant Zones, Obscure Zones, etc.

This answer, like all of mine is fairly basic, and hopefully someone with more experience/skill will elaborate. Then we'll both learn more.

I'm only learning

Les


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## Goldendragon7 (May 23, 2002)

pages 81  to 83.

:asian:


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## Kirk (May 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *pages 81  to 83.
> 
> :asian: *




DANGIT!  I sooooooo gotta get me those books!


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## Goldendragon7 (May 23, 2002)

You don't have them?

tsk tsk tsk  naughty boy!  What are we going to do with you!
:redeme:


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## Rainman (May 23, 2002)

> My understanding is that the "zones of "protection" is basically about not letting your opponent control your height, width & depth.



Add obscurity to that and then flip it around so now you are controlling the opponents HWD and taking advantage of their obscure zones.   If you are in control of their zones your zones are protected and they are not able to retaliate.   The better the fighter the smaller the time frame is for cancellation.    Opposites and reverses have many uses.



:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (May 23, 2002)

I think many of them need a basic understanding of the concept in the first place...... I am always amazed at how many do not know of many of these Kenpo Tools.   I guess thats where we come in ...... to help spread the light.....


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## Rainman (May 23, 2002)

:idunno: 

Okay but I have to practice too!
 

:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (May 23, 2002)

You know this stuff backwards and forwards.... as well as opposite!
:asian:


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## Kirk (May 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *I guess thats where we come in ...... to help spread the light..... *




Yeah, that's the only reason we keep you around!
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


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## Michael Billings (May 23, 2002)

Kenpo definitly has the "tools" to help us talk about our System, and convey it to others, but in this case the "zones" have been around other Arts also.  Whether they were borrowed from Kenpo (a rather egocentric statement on my part) or whether Mr. Parker saw a piece of them elsewhere and then flushed them out by analysis, and restructuring into a more sophisticated tool, I don't know.

Wing Chung, in all it's myriad of spellings, has always had the centerline and 4 gates.  JKD uses this still in their training.  I have not heard anything close to outer rim.  Everyone knows the JKD / Kenpo relationship was close due to Mr. Parker and Bruce Lee's relationship, along with Dan Inosanto and Mr. Parker.  What starts where, I will never know.

Where I get hung up is getting across to my beginners the idea of keeping your hands in front of you, and protecting the space in front of you, not keeping the guard so close to thier bodies.  It does not seem to matter how many times I can touch them, they tend to revert back to that "close guard" when under pressure.  It leaves them with no time to react after perceiving the attack. I have not called it a "shield", but thanks for the idea and I will try it.  

-Michael
UKS-Texas


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## Seig (May 23, 2002)

I have personally developed what I call the "Four Inch Rule" and so far I have not seen it refuted.  I will try to take someting simple and make it complex so the braniacs here can understand it   Basically what it is is this:  If an an UNARMED attack is more than four inches away from the outline of your body, it is not really a threat, don't reach for it.  If it penetrates the four inch barrier, use your closest weapon to defend against it.  It is important to also note that I insist on keeping your hands at least four inches from what ever area they are protecting yet no more than six.  For example, ifyou are in a right foot forward fighting stance, your left hand shouldbe checking your mid section butbe between four and six inches form your body.  Now if someone penetrated to your mid-section with a kick/punch, use that hand to defend yourself.  If that is not explanation enough, I will go into it more later.:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (May 23, 2002)

I visualize myself tagging you.........


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## Michael Billings (May 23, 2002)

Brainiac here (one of my favorite villians).  Sounds a lot like Outer Rim to me.  At least the way I heard Mr. Parker explain it.  I never thought of it in terms of inches from your body, rather used the opponent as the reference point.  But I probably am going too fast, and need to bring it back to fist person point of view for them.  I am willing to try this and the "shield" idea on my beginning class tonight.  

Thanks Mucho,
-Michael


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## Seig (May 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *I visualize myself tagging you.........
> 
> *


Why? are you it?:rofl:


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## Seig (May 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> 
> *Brainiac here (one of my favorite villians).  Sounds a lot like Outer Rim to me.  At least the way I heard Mr. Parker explain it.  I never thought of it in terms of inches from your body, rather used the opponent as the reference point.  But I probably am going too fast, and need to bring it back to fist person point of view for them.  I am willing to try this and the "shield" idea on my beginning class tonight.
> 
> ...


I never had the pleasure or honor of meetng Mr. parker or hearing him speak.  This is one of those things I picked up on my own, worked with with my fellow students and later my students.  the basic premise is this, the shortest distance between two points combined with it is easier to stop a moving obkect after it has reached the apex of it's speed and power.  Mr. C, I have no doubt that you could tag me.  I believe, sir, that if you examne it, you will findit ot have vailidty, especially when dealing with lesser expereinced practitioners.  The way this "discovery" came ot me was noticing that people have a tendency to 'reach" for blocks.  Not only does that practice open you to more attacks, it lessens your reactionary time and space.  I found by restricting the reaction zone that blocking was faster and more decisive and allowed a quicker recovery/ or reset time.:asian:


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## Kalicombat (May 23, 2002)

Maybe when it appears one is reaching for the block, they are in fact attacking the attack. There is no need to block a punch when you can punch the punch, or destroy it in midstream. To me, your theory of the 4 inch range sounds very, very similar to the outer rim theory as outlined in Infinite Insights volume 4. For beginners in any martial art, waiting until the attack is that close is very unlikely. They do not have the training, as of yet, to be patient enough to wait until a weapon is that close. With training, and understanding, they will learn that their reaction can be faster then the action and that they can avoid the weapon being offered with little effort. TO achieve this, they must first weather a few smacks to get the timing, and their own confidence under control.

Gary Catherman


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## ikenpo (May 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *I visualize myself tagging you.........
> 
> *



Now that was funny....

Seig,

I think what he's saying is that with all of the closing gap techniques we have in Kenpo that make you think we are still a far distance from you, not to mention the speed of most Kenpo guys that can spar, that that four inch rule won't work. 

Remember that Mr. C did his time in the square...where when a guy got within 3 or 4 feet they were pounding on each other. 

Remember how folks would say Bruce Lee would stand 6 feet away from them, tell them where he was going to hit them, and then do it before they could stop it. 

Or how a person with a knife has covered 21 feet in a matter of 2 or 3 seconds as a police officer attempted to pull his firearm only to get cut up.

If I get 4 or 6 inches from you and you haven't reacted, your getting hit (actually your already hit). 

What about getting them to hit on focus mitts, moving around each of you in a fighting stance. That will give them a chance to work on their hand placement and position, and get the "feel" of a body in front of them.

Just some thoughts, jb:asian:


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## kenpo_cory (May 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> 
> *
> I never had the pleasure or honor of meetng Mr. parker or hearing him speak.  This is one of those things I picked up on my own, worked with with my fellow students and later my students.  the basic premise is this, the shortest distance between two points combined with it is easier to stop a moving obkect after it has reached the apex of it's speed and power.  Mr. C, I have no doubt that you could tag me.  I believe, sir, that if you examne it, you will findit ot have vailidty, especially when dealing with lesser expereinced practitioners.  The way this "discovery" came ot me was noticing that people have a tendency to 'reach" for blocks.  Not only does that practice open you to more attacks, it lessens your reactionary time and space.  I found by restricting the reaction zone that blocking was faster and more decisive and allowed a quicker recovery/ or reset time.:asian: *



We use this principle, but 4 inches seems a bit close. Usually we don't have a "set in stone" distance. Maybe one day my skills will allow me to block strikes at 4 inches from by body.


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## Turner (May 23, 2002)

I see where Seig is coming from; often times when working with self defense techniques the attacker, controlling his urge to track his target will actually punch to the outside of the body... And everyone still blocks the strike even though it is outside the body. 

Or, for two decently skilled student facing each other, one moves to the outside of the attack, so much so that the attack is 4 inches to the outside of his body and so it is a waste of energy to do anything but check.

What would be the point? Check, control and destroy the weapon... but don't block it if you don't have to.


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## Goldendragon7 (May 24, 2002)

First let me say that I meant No disrespect to you ..... but I don't think I clearly understand the idea you are illustrating 4 inches is awful close ..... my thoughts are more along JBuggs explanation of what I feel.      geeze (he must know me)  but we never have sparred....  Hmmmmmmmm who is telling him my secrets....

anyway.... we need to get together and show me exactly what  you mean.  I open to ideas...... 

:asian:


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## Seig (May 24, 2002)

Mr. C et al.  I realize that a forum like this is a hard place to explain a concept like this.  Turner was very close to what is going on with it.  Keep in mind, I'm 5'8" with over a 50 inch chest.  Economy of motion is what led me to this.  If you envision a four inch bubble all the way around your body, six if that seems too close to you, then any attack outside of that zone forces an extension if not over extension to meet the attack.  Now in my humble opinion, when defending yourself, you do not want to extend or hyper extend beyond your prime striking range.  Now there are always exceptions to this, ie knife attack.  By maintaing a close response area, you can meet the attacks with spped and power without exceeding the apex of either one and still be gaining enough momentum to trampoline(bounce) from a hard or soft block to a strike.  Also, don't asume I'm standing still.  IF someone is trying to close and I think they can overpower me, I create distance.  If I KNOW I can overpower them, I'll close on their closing and use my inside power.


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## Turner (May 24, 2002)

QUOTE]Turner was very close to what is going on with it[/QUOTE]

Not bad for a white belt, huh?

You said close, so I missed something, so not that good either. The problem with 'reaching out to touch someone' with a block is that you are assuming that you know what the strike is. It can look like a heel-palm, smell like a heel-palm but when it hits you it tastes like blood. Something hit you because you over extended to block something outside of the bubble and it upset your balance and what you though was a heel-palm, was a grab and you gave them your arm and controlled your own height, width and depth. If you wanna block it so bad you might as move your body with it too. As I always say, it is easier to move yourself than to move your opponent. If I want to move to an angle of obscurity/zone of protection then I will move there instead of bashing my opponent to get him to turn. OK, I may bash him just for the fun of it, but I'm still gonna move so that I can continue to bash him.

Consider the traditional Karate Inside-Outside Block (use a left inside parry to move the attack to a right outside block). What good is all of that big motion? If I need two hands to block some dude's punch, you better believe I ain't gonna stand in front of that sucker. I'm just gonna do either the inside parry or the outside block as I MOVE QUICK! In Goju-ryu, Modern Arnis, Hapkido and Shorinji Kempo I was taught that as you get better your techniques get smaller, faster and closer to you. Big squares become little circles because as a beginner your feet seem to be rooted to the floor but as you gain experience you learn how to move your body fluidly and gracefully and are able to generate the power that you need with proper speed, body motion and movement.

but what do I know?


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## Michael Billings (May 24, 2002)

I ran the 4" drills last night and was not pleased with keeping the hands so close.  The stikes 4" away from you was ok, but I have also always focused on "if you are not trying to hit me, why should I bother to block?"  This was comfortable, and a good drill for checks & maneauvers.

The problem came when I realized 4" inches is closer than boxers keep there hands in a clinch.  I moved, or projected the imaginary shield, out to an appropriate distance tailored for each individual.  It varied, but was usually at least from thumb to little finger with fingers spread wide, for me about 8".  This way proportional for my kids, and adults.  I was actually more comfortable with the hands being a little further out than this 8" even.  My lead hand when high, was at about 12 - 16 inches.  When my lead hand was low I tended to keep it a little closer with the back hand being at 8".  Well worth the effort and I learned from attempting this, as did my students ... even if it did not work exactly right for us.

The shield idea was great!  Especially when I changed it to a force shield.  The aft, starboard and port shields were down, so we had to keep the forward shields between us and the opponent.  We then threw a few combos, remembering that our phasers were off line, and all we had were photon torpedos. 

Hey. ... I did what worked.

Later & thanks to all,
-Michael
UKS-Texas


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## Goldendragon7 (May 24, 2002)

Well, Michael one thing to think about....... is that it may not work for you but for another it may work much better....... My position is that I don't want to poo poo it or indorse it until I know exactly what Seig is talking about (or anyone else for that matter), this is one minor glitch that the written correspondence on the net does not show very well....... I have learned that to make a clear decision on something..... be damn sure both are on the same  page...... I do think I understand it better but some things are better discussed and shown live........ if you know what I mean.  So guys don't feel bad.... I have to see what you are talking about before I can really take a strong side ....... pro or con.  

:asian:


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## Seig (May 24, 2002)

Guys,  You're right.  This is really a concept that needs to be explained "live" via voice or in person.  You're on the right track though.  Body dynamics to play a part.  I've begun speaking with a few of you and will see if I can get it across better.  If any of you are out this way, maybe we can get together.
Seig


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## ikenpo (May 24, 2002)

First let me say this is a great dialogue. I have a lot of respect for those that explore and search...So now let me ask some questions and make some comments that will allow me to explore what your doing.



> _Originally posted by Seig _
> 
> *If you envision a four inch bubble all the way around your body, six if that seems too close to you, then any attack outside of that zone forces an extension if not over extension to meet the attack. *
> 
> ...


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## Seig (May 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _
> 
> *First let me say this is a great dialogue. I have a lot of respect for those that explore and search...So now let me ask some questions and make some comments that will allow me to explore what your doing.
> 
> ...


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## Goldendragon7 (May 26, 2002)

Make a short video tape and send me on this idea.....:asian:


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## Seig (May 27, 2002)

That's not a bad idea, or I could simply wait til you come up here and have a lengthy discourse/demo with you on the subject!  We can then pick it apart together.


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## Goldendragon7 (May 31, 2002)

Get your video tape out and film all the forms you know for me.........


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## Seig (May 31, 2002)

Time to refresh my memory!


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## Tiger84 (Jul 8, 2016)

Seig said:


> I have personally developed what I call the "Four Inch Rule" and so far I have not seen it refuted.  I will try to take someting simple and make it complex so the braniacs here can understand it   Basically what it is is this:  If an an UNARMED attack is more than four inches away from the outline of your body, it is not really a threat, don't reach for it.  If it penetrates the four inch barrier, use your closest weapon to defend against it.  It is important to also note that I insist on keeping your hands at least four inches from what ever area they are protecting yet no more than six.  For example, ifyou are in a right foot forward fighting stance, your left hand shouldbe checking your mid section butbe between four and six inches form your body.  Now if someone penetrated to your mid-section with a kick/punch, use that hand to defend yourself.  If that is not explanation enough, I will go into it more later.:asian:


I would never intentionally let some one get as close a 4", your arms extend much farther than that although I agree that you don't want to be reaching for the attacks. Everyone should be taught the proper dimensions for their defensive maneuvers and simply do not reach farther than that.


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## Tiger84 (Jul 8, 2016)

Michael Billings said:


> Kenpo definitly has the "tools" to help us talk about our System, and convey it to others, but in this case the "zones" have been around other Arts also.  Whether they were borrowed from Kenpo (a rather egocentric statement on my part) or whether Mr. Parker saw a piece of them elsewhere and then flushed them out by analysis, and restructuring into a more sophisticated tool, I don't know.
> 
> Wing Chung, in all it's myriad of spellings, has always had the centerline and 4 gates.  JKD uses this still in their training.  I have not heard anything close to outer rim.  Everyone knows the JKD / Kenpo relationship was close due to Mr. Parker and Bruce Lee's relationship, along with Dan Inosanto and Mr. Parker.  What starts where, I will never know.
> 
> ...


Use the star block as a flow drill


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## Tiger84 (Jul 8, 2016)

Les said:


> Kirk, you're on the right track with this one.
> 
> My understanding is that the "zones of "protection" is basically about not letting your opponent control your height, width & depth.
> 
> ...


That's the jist of it.

Infinite Insights into Kenpo Volume 3 Glossary page xvi 

"Zone of protection: This involves shielding the three main zones on your body, height (or horizontal), width (or vertical and depth."


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