# Im not sure Im worthy



## Xue Sheng (Dec 18, 2009)

I feel guilty and basically unqualified to do this but I did it just the same.

First I need to say I do not think this is anything new or earth shattering or new and improved or an amazing discovery it is just rearranged with some things added to from other routines I have learned form other sifus and thing you can find in many CMA Qigong forms and CMA warm-ups. Basically it is just something that works for me at this time.

My Sifu taught me something years ago called Shi er duan jin which is a combination of warm-up and Qigong which he learned from his Sifu and I have done it for a while now, and what I have just started doing is the same type qigong/warm-up thing as well. Actually with my knee on the mend shi er duan jin is pretty much all I can do (well that and a Yang Taiji Qigong form from his Sifu that he taught me) and I have enjoyed it and it has been helpful but it just has not felt right for a while now.

Of late, since I have been spending so much time doing shi er duan jin, I have begun to feel, that for me it was not right, something is missing. I fought this feeling for quite some time but I gave up fighting this week and changed the form. 

Based on the last 15 years training with my Sifu (Yang Taiji which includes Shi Er Duan Jin in my flavor of Yang) and my training in Ba Duan Jin and the Qigong and warm-ups from Chen style and Xingyiquan I felt I needed to change shi er duan jin a bit, not much, just rearrange and add a couple of things so technically I guess it is more like Shi si duan jin, although I have no plans on calling it that. 

But I am rather a traditionalist in CMA and I tend to not feel I have the background or qualifications to change things like this and frankly I feel a bit guilty changing something I learned from my Sifu that comes from his Sifu who are both by far more qualified than I am or likely will ever be. I have no plans for teaching it and it is only for my use but I still feel a bit weird having changed it, even though I do feel that it is better for me at this time. 

But I am still having these &#8220;Just who the hell do I think I am&#8221; and the &#8220;how dare I change something that comes form such qualified and experienced people&#8221; kind of thoughts

This damn knee injury has given me WAAAAAAAAY too much time to stop and think I guess.


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## Flying Crane (Dec 18, 2009)

I was talking with my dai sisuk the other day, and the topic of changing the forms came up.  He has been with sigung for long enough to have witnessed the forms going thru changes, as the headquarters in Hong Kong felt it was merited.  

He said that for unity, all the connected schools should be teaching the forms the same.  However, an individual may make changes so that it suits him better.  But you still keep the standardized version to be taught to the next generation, so that connection remains.  You just keep a couple different versions of the form that are used for different reasons.


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## Darksoul (Dec 18, 2009)

Xue, I would say you've been doing martial arts long enough to know what works for you, and there is nothing wrong with experimentation. I second Flying Crane's suggestion. Keep the original form intact but have 'your' form for you own personal use. Talk it over with your Sifu, show it to him, I'm sure he wouldn't mind as long as the original is passed on.


Andrew


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## bowser666 (Dec 18, 2009)

In my opinion I think it is okay to change if you have the experience and have been training long enough. Martial Arts is a living art, and this a evolving art. It's called progress. If people were satisfied with keeping things the same and never changing , we would still be living in caves and without technology etc..... Nothing wrong with making changes I say. Happens all the time. For example, I study Longfist and there are probably a hundred variations of forms like Lien Bu Chuan , Gong Li chuan , etc..........  It also helps distinguish your lineage as well.  Just better hope its a good one


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 18, 2009)

Xue Sheng said:


> I feel guilty and basically unqualified to do this but I did it just the same.
> 
> First I need to say I do not think this is anything new or earth shattering or new and improved or an amazing discovery it is just rearranged with some things added to from other routines I have learned form other sifus and thing you can find in many CMA Qigong forms and CMA warm-ups. Basically it is just something that works for me at this time.
> 
> ...


I think you should go with what is most practicle.
Sean


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## Tensei85 (Dec 18, 2009)

I think the goal is to make the Gong Fu your own, so in this case make the Taiji your own or the Qi Gong. Look at the form Siu Lim Tau in Wing Chun, get a room full of W.C. guys & I can guarantee that none of them are doing the form the same even from the same Sifu. 

Obviously you don't want to stray from the principles of the system but at the same time its really nothing new as you know. 

Plus there are a few areas of understanding in the Martial Arts. 1st. is system knowledge. (You understand what's been handed down to you from your Shifu - To Di transmission & from his Shifu etc... princples, concepts, mechanics) which I'm sure has been changed atleast a time or 2. 

2nd. is body intelligence. Or a saying that my Sifu says is the Mind understands & the body knows. (or in my case the mind understands but the body has no clue! he said that a time or 2 as well) Your body should understand what is proper for it, given your experience in Qi Gong I would say that your qualified to judge what is correct for your training, not quite the same for someone fresh off the streets...

So good luck with this enhanced training, fill us in on how it works for you.


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## jks9199 (Dec 19, 2009)

If you changed it based on sound principles and solid training experience -- you're on good ground.  If you changed it based on incomplete understandings or for mere convenience, you're on shaky ground.

I'm pretty confident you're on pretty stable ground...


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## Tensei85 (Dec 19, 2009)

Tensei85 said:


> Obviously you don't want to stray from the principles of the system but at the same time its really nothing new as you know.
> 
> Plus there are a few areas of understanding in the Martial Arts. 1st. is system knowledge. (You understand what's been handed down to you from your Shifu - To Di transmission & from his Shifu etc... princples, concepts, mechanics) which I'm sure has been changed atleast a time or 2.


 
Addendum to clarify before a misconception is given based on my post above. Haha, I didn't mean the Principles have been changed, in fact principles are an identifying trademark of a System & what helps make it function without that in my opinion ceases to exist as a System. Just caught my wording above on the last post...


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## Rich Parsons (Dec 19, 2009)

Xue Sheng said:


> I feel guilty and basically unqualified to do this but I did it just the same.
> 
> First I need to say I do not think this is anything new or earth shattering or new and improved or an amazing discovery it is just rearranged with some things added to from other routines I have learned form other sifus and thing you can find in many CMA Qigong forms and CMA warm-ups. Basically it is just something that works for me at this time.
> 
> ...


 

Xue,

Here are things to think about. 

1) Do the changes add to your training? 

2) How do they add? (* THis is required so you can explain why it is different *)

3) Do you still give credit to your instructor(s)? (* As you did already, I assume you will answer yes. *)

4) Do you plan to make sure anyone who trains with you to know where the changes came from, and that their merit is based upon yoru knowledge and not that of others passed down to you?

5) Are you saying there is nothign good in the other way you learned or are you just saying this feels better to me?


You do not need to answer to me or in public. Just for you to think upon. 

In my opinion, if you give credit to your instructors, and your students know and learn that this is from the traditional and that the other is from multiple influnences that you like then you should still be respectful to your instructors, and not passing on any falsehoods, which to a respectable man such as yourself (* based upon interactions on MT *) would be a proplem and source of guilt. 


Good Luck in your training.


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## ggg214 (Dec 21, 2009)

i have no experience in changing body structure way learned from my shifu, at least i don't mean to do like in my way.
IMO, changes always comes from unconfortable movement. there are two contrary reason we must be know very clearly. one is the style problem. it means missing some movements, teahers didn't tell the key parts, etc. i think in this event, change is a must. however, the other reason is body's problem. it means you body can't control so well to suit the movement, the power delivery. we all have this experience when we are doing some things in first time. the solution is to doing it again and again, not make any change in movement.
For me, i trust my shifu, and his kung fu is so well, not in performing but also in fighting. what i learnt from him, i believe is true and the key part has been told to me. if i have problems in doing these movements, i will try to find problems from my body struture than the style problem.


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 21, 2009)

After much thought and reading all of the posted response I have come to the conclusion that I am not making any drastic changes just rearranging the form based on experience with other styles (Chen and Xingyiquan) and adding a couple of things based on that same past experience and the change is based more on the structure of the human body and doing things in order, from head to toe if you will, and the additions are more to adding a couple of needed warm-ups that I need to do and at one place focusing more on the internal. And this is helping me move on in this form. I have done this form for close to 15 years now, I learned this with the long form at the beginning. 

My Sifu has told me a long time ago that no two people will do the form exactly the same since no two people are exactly alike. I will talk to him about this change and see what he thinks about it. I doubt he will challenge me to a fight, kick my butt and throw me out in the street. More likely he will either correct it or tell me to keep at it and see where it goes. 

However I do know the basis for this form comes form his Sifu through him to me and I plan on practicing it in its original form to remember it and show others when I get to that point again.  

I am a hardcore traditionalist when it comes to CMA and have been told by more than one Chinese person (including 2 sifus and my wife) that I am more Chinese than most of the Chinese people that do Martial art (my wife is constantly telling me Im too serious when it comes to martial arts). So my source of guilt is based on my damned traditional views of things. I help my Sifu teach and he really doesnt care if I go teach but I am still his student and not sure I should be changing stuff.

Also I have been doing a lot of thinking about the title of this thread and I regret using the phrase not worthy I should have said "Im not sure Im qualified". 

Thank you to all your responses have helped.


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## mograph (Dec 21, 2009)

Xue Sheng said:


> So my source of guilt is based on my damned traditional views of things.



In other words, you are another prisoner of Confucian values, Xuesheng. Please take them with a grain of salt. 

You have respect for your Sifu, you follow his ways, and you have no plans to teach anything different from your Sifu's methods.

So relax. Your heart is good and your respect is strong. Lose your attachment to Confucian values. Use them when necessary, but don't be a prisoner to them.


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 21, 2009)

mograph said:


> In other words, you are another prisoner of Confucian values, Xuesheng. Please take them with a grain of salt.
> 
> You have respect for your Sifu, you follow his ways, and you have no plans to teach anything different from your Sifu's methods.
> 
> So relax. Your heart is good and your respect is strong. Lose your attachment to Confucian values. Use them when necessary, but don't be a prisoner to them.


 
I just KNEW I read to much Chinese Philosophy when I was younger


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## ggg214 (Dec 22, 2009)

mograph said:


> ....Lose your attachment to Confucian values. Use them when *necessary*, but don't be a prisoner to them.


 
some chinese things should not be judged as fast food. completely different!
do you know chinese soup? a good one is not the one cooked in short time. i have heard a story that a famous soup maker kept his soup boiled on the fire every minutes every day for many years. that's the key why his soup was so popular.
the same as some chinese things. for instance, horse stand is not a fighting posture. only a fool do it when fighting. but it doesn't work? no! after years training this, you will find your crura is very powerful, which is a basic requirement for all CMA style and fighting. qigong is another good example. movements are simple and easy. if you do it every day for some years, you will find your body changing in a good way, gradually!all these are  easy but taking time. if you do this when you necessary, i think CMA is not suitable for you. 
but i should say that the above things are not all of cmA. some of them are required effect, such as skills. if it doesn't work, it's no use. 
all in all, don't judge all the chinese things in the same standard.


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## mograph (Dec 22, 2009)

Sorry, my Buddhism is showing.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 22, 2009)

I see this as a potentially great growth stage for you.  Your instructor or instructors are probably wondering *what took so long*. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  Seriously every practitioner that practices for a long time tweaks things and makes some changes.  This is just natural and your sifu before did this and his sifu did and so on.  *If it helps you improve that is what is really important*.  Purity in the martial sciences is well..... *silly* because really nothing out there is pure as they are all reworkings or innovation by an individual to further improve their training and teaching.  I am sure your instructor will say *good job* and keep going!


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## grydth (Dec 22, 2009)

A person of your experience and integrity can and should try out modifications for personal use. 

This is not the evil situation where some unqualified amateur makes major changes to an art and passes the resulting frankenstein monster off to paying students as being the original art.

You may even be on to something which eventually may prove very useful for your teachers ..... after all, how are legitimate improvements discovered?


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## East Winds (Dec 23, 2009)

Xue Sheng,

This is neither a simple nor a straightforward situation. Like you, I am very much a "traditionalist" as far as the Internal Arts go. I faced a similar siutation in the past and was very gently reminded by my teacher of what Yang Cheng-fu wrote in his introduction to "_Tai-chi chuan ti-yung chuan-shu"_
"_*If modifications were necessary in the methods laid down by worthy men in the past, then these would have been implemented during the many centuries from the Yuan and Ming dynsasties down to the present. Did these modifications need to wait for our own generation? I hope that future students will not be led astray by externals, but seek always the inner truth............The most important thing in studying the postures is not their external appearance, but to grasp the idea. The greatest danger is in introducing ones personal innovations and passing on errors as true transmissions."*_ 

However, with your knowledge and experience, I am sure you will reach the correct solution.

Very best wishes and a very happy Christmas.


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 23, 2009)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I see this as a potentially great growth stage for you. Your instructor or instructors are probably wondering *what took so long*.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Actually over the years I have changed an application or two. Some he said were ok some he said were wrong if you are actually using taiji... I was once told not bad for Xingyi . 

But I have just never changed a form before. Although he did tell me once that no two people will do the form exactly the same but no matter who is doing the form, as long as they are doing the form properly, it should still be recognizable as Yang Taiji and follow the basics.


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## mograph (Dec 23, 2009)

East Winds said:


> _*"The greatest danger is in introducing ones personal innovations and passing on errors as true transmissions."*_



Worthy of discussion at some point: if personal innovations change the external appearance, but maintain the inner truth ... are they valid? If two practitioners practice with inner truth but different appearances, who should one follow? 

I tend to believe that once the inner truth is grasped, then adherence to a particular external appearance is a matter of a) respect for one's lineage and b) instructional consistency, at least when teaching junior students. At higher levels, I think the practitioner (a Master by now?) can be more flexible with forms teaching to those seniorl students, but of course instructing them to adhere to some consistency when they're teaching the junior students.

I don't know ... I'm not big on form for its own sake. If your form and my form both show good basic principles, they're both valid, so let's share our stuff and go for a beer after practice!

And yes, I've wondered about the "old is better" vs. "new is better" argument. Old can be better because arts degrade, but new can be better because techniques can be refined. The onus is on us to know what is good and true, whether old or new.

... in my opinion.


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 23, 2009)

There are certain basics that are shared by taiji styles that make them taiji without those they become something else. Yang Chengfu called them the 10 essentials or essences depending on the translation and if you look into Chen they have similar ideas and the same goes for Wu, Wu/Hao, Zhaobao, and Sun. 

However what I was doing and what I am doing is not a change in anyway to the form itself but to a warm-up/Qigong form that comes from Tung Ying Chieh and I do not know if that comes from Yang Taiji, Hao taiji or a combination of both made by Tung Ying Chieh. As a note I believe Tung Ying Chieh took the ten essentials and made them 12 but it is nothing new just more of a breakdown of the original ten. I will need to go to his book to make sure of that 

Yang Chengfus Ten Essentials 

http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/about/articles/ten-essentials-1

http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/about/articles/ten-essentials-2


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## UNYMA (Dec 24, 2009)

It seems to me that there are a number of ways to look at this. We could probably all agree that after a time, we'll all move slightly differently when doing the same form simply based on our own bodies.  I'm not particularly flexible, and getting a bit older so I can't move the same way a 20 year old does.  As long as I'm not compromising my structure that's not very much of an issue.

Then there's physical principles of the system I'm learning.  As long as my movements don't conflict with those then I should be okay.  For example, if I should be generating power using rotational movement and I change something to a very linear movement I've probably strayed a bit to far.

Finally, I think most systems have principles based on intent.  I think this is probably the area where a person could go off track the easiest.  In the style I study we have 4 what I call attitudinal principles.  It's a very aggressive style and these principles support that.  If I were to change a form in a way such that my physical structure was still correct, the physical principles of the system were still intact but my mental concept had become very defensive or passive then I've really created something that's not in alignment with the system.  I know I'm not anywhere near qualified to do that so it would be flat out wrong.  

In a nutshell, what everyone else said   Happy Holidays everyone.


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## PK_Tricky (Dec 30, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> I feel guilty and basically unqualified to do this but I did it just the same.
> 
> First I need to say I do not think this is anything new or earth shattering or new and improved or an amazing discovery it is just rearranged with some things added to from other routines I have learned form other sifus and thing you can find in many CMA Qigong forms and CMA warm-ups. Basically it is just something that works for me at this time.
> 
> ...


Look man, I am relatively new to martial arts, but I have self-taught myself many other skills and art forms throughout the years.  Read this carefully:  You are the only person on the planet that has the ability to be the best at being YOU.  Everyone is a prodigy at being themselves if they believe in themselves.  Its important to seek wisdom and guidance, but at some point you need to look at yourself and adapt to who YOU are.  In my humble opinion, (and from ALOT of practical experience in other art forms and skills), it can be dangerous to take someone else's methods and confuse a wise technique that works fantastic for fact in your own training.  If you have been doing this for 15 years, and you feel something need adjusting, by all means, adjust it .  Good luck my friend!
-PK


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