# Old style Muay Thai?



## CKM

Can anyone please give me some leads as to where I can find Muay Boran(old style fighting) instructors or schools here in the U.S.(west coast preferably) or overseas. Names and phone numbers would be great. 

Thanks to anyone who replies,

Rick


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## micah

wow best of luck !


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## Tommy-sdf

i think any muay boran you find now will be B.S, re-named standard muay thai called muay boran to cash in on the ong bak craze or reconstructed old master tricks from muay thai and things re-discovered from old texts therefore it is highly speculative weather it would indeed b real muay boran. I have seen a few websites claiming to teach muay boran but it has just seemed slightly altered muay thai without the great resistance training muay thai offers.

if i were you id stick with whats available now,sport muay thai, its still great for self defence and really you could see it as the latest evolution of muay boran. as a reference you could look for the thai master tricks, usually complimentary techniques of muay thai generally flying elbows/knees, a few kicking variations and the like.

dr. kratius' book on muay thai is good and contains an old thaiboxing text from the reighn of king ramma iii it may have what your after.
another idea perhaps is take up krabi krabong they do teach some unarmed stuff which may suit your needs. but treat anywhere caliming to teach muay boran with caution.

good luck!


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## thaistyle

Look at the USMTA website.  There was a teacher in New York that teaches muay boran and he is recognized by the World Muay Thai Council.   Most other schools are in Europe.  Kru Marco DeCesaris wrote a book on muay boran and if i read it right muay boran was the name given to the older styles (muay korat, muay ta sao, muay chaiya, muay lopburi) around 1996 to try to keep them around because all the old masters were dying and know one was continuing the old styles.  Panya Kraitus who wrote Muay Thai: The Textbook of Pahiyuth, is a student of a late muay chaiya master and his book is considered to be the bible of muay thai.  Check it out if you don't have any luck with muay boran.


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## blackdiamondcobra

You can email at blackdiamondcobra@yahoo.com because sometimes there are people passing through from Thailand that come to the west coast. I am on the east coast.

Muay Boran is something very specific it is more a composite physical education version of the old systems and not the authentic old style systems.

I have an upcoming book on the topic and it has translations of the authentic grandmasters systems and teaching from my years training in the systems in thailand.

likewise you can check col amnats dvds for an overview.


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## thaistyle

Hey blackdiamondcobra, will you PM me when your book is complete and ready for sale?  It seems everyone is on a muay boran kick since the release of Ong Bak.  People need to realize that muay boran is a combination of the older styles and not just one style.  Muay boran saying "Punch like Korat, think like Lopburi and stand like Chaiya".


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## tellner

Kru Steve Wilson - http://www.chalambok.us - does intensive 1-on-1 and seminars in Krabi Krabong, Muay Kaechuk (sp?) and Muay Thai Boran. He's been with Ajarn Chai since forever and was one of the first Westerners to go all the way through Buddai Swan back when it was Buddai Swan. He has a commission in the Thai military to teach the traditional arts to Army officers and is an all-around world-class instructor.


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## 1William

tellner said:


> Kru Steve Wilson - http://www.chalambok.us - does intensive 1-on-1 and seminars in Krabi Krabong, Muay Kaechuk (sp?) and Muay Thai Boran. He's been with Ajarn Chai since forever and was one of the first Westerners to go all the way through Buddai Swan back when it was Buddai Swan. He has a commission in the Thai military to teach the traditional arts to Army officers and is an all-around world-class instructor.


 
+1

I spent a lot of time training with Ajarn Wilson and he certainly knows KK, and the "old" styles. Train with him if you can!


William


PS: Hey "T", how you doing?


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## Thunder Foot

hmmm.... I still question this "Muay Boran" composition as you guys call it. I belive it is easily being confused with this newly developed "Muay Thai Boran" amalgamation.


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## Truong

Muay Boran By Marco DeCesaris is one of the best books i've found so far on muay boran, you can pick it up at your local bookstore


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## Thunder Foot

That book is ok. I own it as well, but I'm still a little skeptical as it doesn't give definitive references for their accumulative knowledge of Muay Boran. It only talks about people who don't have any history in Muay Boran, and are part of their oraganization.

I'd much rather look to a more credible source for Muay Boran, like The Muay Chaiya Foundation as they are respected by the World Muay Thai Council, and provide credible sources that can be referenced.

http://www.muaychaiya.com/index_en.html


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## tellner

Again, Kru Steve Wilson, Kru Greg Nelson (Minnesota Martial Arts Academy) and Kru Mike Walrath. Kru Mike got pretty seriously injured (auto accident) and isn't physically up to what he used to be, but he's still a hell of a coach.


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## Thunder Foot

Tellner,

I tried to search for those people you mentioned, and the website is unavailable.  Do you have another link?
Also  I'm familiar with Ajarn Chai, and I know he doesn't teach Muay Boran. So I'm assuming those you mentioned learned from the Buddhai Swan? I could be wrong, but I thought they primarily taught Krabi Krabong? :asian:


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## tellner

All of them trained at Buddai Swan among other places. All of them also long-time associates of Ajarn Chai in Muay Thai. Steve Wilson is in Mt. Vernon, WA and has a website at http://chalambok.us . Greg Nelson is in St. Paul, Minnesota. His school is the Minnesota Martial Arts Academy. Don't remember the website offhand, but it should be easy to find. Mike Walrath is in Eugene, OR. As I said, he teaches, but isn't up to much hard physical work anymore. 

They've all got KK and other old Thai martial arts. I mention Buddai Swan because it was a known (and highly respected) quantity back when they studied there.


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## Thunder Foot

that site doesn't work. And do you know what style of Boran is taught at the Buddhai Swan? It's something to look into.


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## blackdiamondcobra

Thunderfoot:

The Muay Boran taught at the Buddhai Sawan was part of the physical education teachings and probably the forerunner of DeCarsis' form of physical education muay boran.

On my dvd set Krabi Krabong: The Buddhai Sawan Path, you can see on Disc 1 the muay boran training overview into the krabi krabong training.
http://www.buddhaisawanpath.com


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## Thunder Foot

Ah I see. Well, I've read the entirety of DeCesaris' and no where in there does he reference the Buddhai Swan nor give credit to the organization... so I doubt thats where his Boran comes from, and is besides the point because he hardly has references in the first place, hehe.

Anyhow, what style of Boran does the Buddhai Swan practice? Muay Lopburi, Korat, Chaiya, Ta Sao??? I know it can't simply be a generic term like "Muay Boran". :asian:


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## blackdiamondcobra

Thunder foot 

You are missing my point in entirety. The Physical Education department set up this system of Muay Boran for young children, high school and college kids as way of reminding them of the past. It is just a composite system developed by the teachers in the phys ed department to be implemented in a class room environment as a system of study. It is relatively safe and devoid of anything deadly.  From there the teachers developed their own systems but they remained phys ed. Some Krabi Krabong systems as well come directly from the phys ed department.  So the master system is from phys ed then they streamline to the others.  Phys Ed was where the master index came from for Por Kru and from where De Cesarsis drew their material they might off set with their own studies and research as Por Kru definitely did which deepens it.  

The authentic systems of original muay are still being taught and they have their own principles, ways of fighting etc that are distinct and not homogenized into a phys ed muay boran.  Nothing wrong with the muay boran of De Cesaris, Por Kru or anyone but you must TELL the TRUTH and DEFINE what it is. If you cant you are not a master of it and pulling a charade on the people you teach.


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## Thunder Foot

I understand your point, however I don't believe you understand mine. After reading DeCesaris' book, I came to the conclusion that he prescribes the "*entirety*" of Muay Boran as being the composite system that you described, when people have been using the term "Muay Boran" to describe the older style of Muay _prior_ to this amalgamation of styles, cleverly titled "Muay Boran". Now people are under the misconception that Muay Boran never existed because of this newly developed system, _and_ because there aren't many texts on Muay Boran outside of Thailand... and DeCesaris made the first. I mean the book itself, is a compilation of magazine articles out of "Int'l Budo", and hardly gives way to any references other than opinionated  articles.

But all styles of Muay Boran are divided into regional styles, which was why I asked the question which style of Muay Boran does the Buddhai Swan practice? But now thanks to your clarifcation, I understand that they too, are an amalgamation of styles... and not quite what I understand to be Boran Muay.


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## JBrainard

tellner said:


> Kru Steve Wilson - http://www.chalambok.us - does intensive 1-on-1 and seminars in Krabi Krabong, Muay Kaechuk (sp?) and Muay Thai Boran. He's been with Ajarn Chai since forever and was one of the first Westerners to go all the way through Buddai Swan back when it was Buddai Swan. He has a commission in the Thai military to teach the traditional arts to Army officers and is an all-around world-class instructor.


 
Everything Tellner states above is correct except the website. Try:
http://www.chalambok.com/index.html


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## blackdiamondcobra

Thunderfoot:

I understand completely what you are trying to say. What is your training and backround in these systems?

De Cesaris research is questionable and certainly not scholarly or based on any actually training in the old systems with the old masters. 

 He has no cross reference or any understanding.  its hollow. its confusing. He has no understanding of what is physical education vs what the actual systems are so its damaging to others understanding.

It was called Muay or when the time passed into Muay Thai which would make sense it was called Muay Boran or the ancient way of fighting.  So after Muay Thai took hold, the bare knuckle could be called Muay Boran or Muay with a bound fist or any other name along those lines.

The term Muay Boran was then claimed by the physical Education department for their blanket redevelopment of a phys ed program, thus the confusion began and still remains. So it now has a dual meaning: Muay Boran as developed by the phys ed department as a blending of tactics into a program that can safely be taught and promoted in a blanket manner and Muay Boran as a term to describe the old systems of lopburi, chaiya, pra nakorn, lanna, isaan, korat, etc or the old way of fighting. two different things. two different ways of understanding.

When it was just Muay, it would be like Burmese Lethwei an active field of fighitng and bare knuckle or bound fist training, fighitng being the end result.  There were authentic regional styles and ways of training as in Lethwei but when it came together in the ring it was a raw fight. So as the systems weathered away, they compiled them in a way to save them in total disreguard or acknowledgement of the old masters and the old systems.  They should have co existed but they didnt and only know when its very late in the game are people trying to suddenly revive them in the last few years.

I walked every part of thailand and rescued and translated all the old documents, videotaped all the old masters of muay some of which very people even thais know exist including one master who is approaching 100 in the northeast.  I correlated that with actual training in muay boran at the grade school level, high school level and college level with the instructors and with the classes.  My knowledge also comes from the actual texts i inherited and the actual documentation of the original systems.  This is the three fold research including my training starting in 1992 with the last of the masters across thailand.

My book The Vanishing Flame will clear this mess up once and for all with the programs of phys ed muay boran vs the actual systems side by side and then it will all be clear. Thus far all the writing in the english language is a confusion since the people dont understand who are writing about and havent done the research nor the training nor a combination of both.


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## Truong

When will your book be published? If possible i'd like to get a copy directly from you..I'll PM you


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## Thunder Foot

blackdiamondcobra,

Thank you for the informative post. I am familiar with most of the chain of events that you mentioned, and I am in disagreement. Not with what you said, but with the outcome of events. Because Muay Boran was used before this "Physical Education Department" (by the way, can you specify exactly what is the function of this Department, and what organization they are affiliated with? Just for clarification purposes) decided to make a composite of the Boran styles, as was previously stated. This is unacceptable and disrespectful in the world of Martial Arts as a whole in my opinion.  If someone were to do the same to "Gung Fu" for example, they would not be accepted... because you can't create that which already exists. In example, I can't take Wing Chun Gung Fu, Hung Gar Gung Fu, Bagua Gung Fu.... combine them, and then proceed to call my newly developed composite style, *"Gung Fu"* completely ignoring the fact that Gung Fu _already exists_.

I suppose my gripe is with those whom have taken it upon themselves to attempt to re-define the term "Muay Boran", with a replacement of watered down compositions (no offense to you, if you practice that style). It just seems to me, that by _cleverly_ labelling their newly developed style, "Muay Boran"... they purposely perpetuate this confusion that we're are both talking about. And now that more solid forms of Muay Boran are stepping out of Modern Muay Thai's shadow, here comes the confusion when this composite system is confronted by that which they attempt to duplicate. If this Phys Ed department and Marco DeCesaris are going to create a new composite system, then they should label it something different. Because calling it "Muay Boran" is as generic as saying Kung Fu, Karate, Wrestling, etc. And everyone I have ever come into contact with, knows Muay Boran as Ancient Boxing, not a composite system. And anyone whom has ever mentioned this composite system; either practices the style themselves, or heard it from someone who does practice it.

And I don't mean to sound cynical, but ever since the interest in Muay Boran by way of Tony Jaa... alot of people in Thailand now claim to know/teach Muay Boran. I'm not claiming to be an expert myself, simply asking for the references. So you'll have to excuse my skepticism. I just don't see Muay Boran being "shrouded in mystery" to the point where such action is needed. But I do look forward to your book, and the references in which you attained your information. :asian:


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## blackdiamondcobra

I dont think per se there is anything wrong here. I think its just poor understanding as I have said all along of the Thai Martial Arts as the people just accept things without a deeper understanding. I knew about this, wrote about this since 1993 with people attacking me from every end that I was wrong its now 13 years later with 13 years more training and research and people still havent woken up and I'm back arguing the same points.

They want to believe because something is in a fancy magazine or a fancy book that its just true then so be it. The bare knuckle arts were dying out completely when I first began training and interest in Krabi Krabong was sorely waning.  The interest of phys ed definitely gave people a strong teaching template and an place for it to always be there. So it has tremendous importance because when the revitalization began due to things like Ong Bak and in Muay Thai with Buakaw, the phys ed department pushed it into the commercial realm via people like De Cesarsis. They believe their material draws a person back to the great grandmasters like Kru Bua, etc but it only marginally does because people believe the phys ed material is complete and the be and end all which is a brutal and sorry mistake same as in Krabi Krabong. As I stated earlier, if an instructor whether he is thai or not, doesnt understand this and can tell you clearly what he is teaching you then he is just playing you for the fool.

Muay Boran is its original state was about fighting first and foremost as a active fighting system or martial art, contact is made.  It has a spiritual component, a fighting component, a self defense component, a philosophy and a theory.  If it is devoid of actual application and fighting then its missing the very essence of its core.

I'll leave this conversation here for the time being. Its too big a topic for now.  The book is the place for the complete picture to happen and be realized.


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## Thunder Foot

Well, I thank you for all the information that you have provided. I'm really just trying to understand the lineage via references, that this Phys Ed Department acquires its Muay Boran. There are so many people out there now days, whom claim to teach Muay Boran, and all I ask is the references hehe. There shouldn't be any reason why there would be mysticism behind the lineage. At any rate, Muay Boran was never waning or disappearing to my knowledge. It was practiced and continues to be practiced just like anything else, within Thailand. That is where the Mae Mai and Look Mai in Modern Muay Thai are derived from, Muay Korat style of Boran. So when someone tells me they have taken the liberty of ressurecting a dying art, I tend to listen cautiously. One prime example of a "surviving" Boran, is the Muay Chaiya Foundation. They have been doing Muay Boran for years and years, and have kept their lineage and style intact. So Muay Boran isn't as mysterious as some play it out to be. Just sounds like a cover up for the missing links in the system of this "newly developed style". DeCesaris gives references to Muay Chaiya in his book, but has never learned Muay Chaiya or been affiliated with the organization. And because Muay Chaiya has existed as one example, and continues to... I can't buy into this whole "revitalization of Muay Thai"  concept that you are bringing forth.

And I understand if the Phys Ed Department wants to preseve that which they believe to be disappearing, but they are only perpetuating the mis-understanding of Muay Boran with statements like "Muay Boran is a newly developed system comprised of..." and so on and so forth, *and never exactly stating that Muay Boran existed prior to this new composition*. If I am understanding correctly, you are speaking of the Phys Dept of the Royal Thai Army. And if that is the case, they only represent one fraction of _one style_ of Muay Boran. Hardly a means of justification to redefine the word Muay Boran. It is written clear as day in DeCesaris book as well, that they are redefining the meaning of Muay Boran. And to his advantage too, because there isn't any other Muay Boran books written (alteast in a language other than Thai), to compare these claims to. I mean, just the fact that the book mentions things about Muay Chaiya, without ever having learned it.... who knows what other styles of Muay Boran will continue to be perversed. 

Muay Boran isn't ancient "lost knowledge" that needs ressurection. And as I previously stated, now that Muay Boran is coming out of the shadows of Modern Muay Thai, this composite system of Muay Boran, perpetuated by DeCesaris... will continue to be confronted by those whom the system attempts to duplicate.


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## blackdiamondcobra

Thunderfoot:
I beg to differ than the old styles werent dying. They were. If you look at old articles like Muay Chaiya Fighting For survival and at the time when I started in Muay Chaiya in 1992 and continue to this day, we can see the difference.  There were so few students until the recent years also suddenly now alot of thais have come out of the woodwork and have schools and are instructors which are suspect. Nobody was interested in it and also the late Kru Tong at the time, didnt accept any acknowledgement from the Muay Thai community and stayed away from them hurt it even more(this was begun by his teacher Ajarn Khetr).  The systems were dying and some even died out. One of the key luminaries in bare knuckle who was instrumental in the development of the original Ring Muay Thai transition is barely remembered and his old style of muay not even spoken about. Very few of the original Muay Korat teachers continue open classes.  Its not like you think. There is nothing in the english language on this and very little in Thai unless you train in Thailand you will not know the issues at hand and actual events that went on over the years


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## thaistyle

Excellent posts between you guys.  Very informative.  You both have done your homework.  Thunderfoot and I had a similar debate, through PM, a couple of months back.


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## Thunder Foot

Blackdiamondcobra:

Kru Tong had many Chaiya students around the time you stated, so I'm unsure of your sources telling you that the style was dying.There were many people interested in it, but at that particular time... the Chaiya style of Boran was being overshadowed by the more popular, Modern Muay Thai. That doesn't mean the style was dying out... just because it wasn't as widely practiced as Modern Muay. And Kru Tong didn't want to be affiliated with the Modern Muay becuase he did not want the Chaiya style to become watered down, with the advancement of the Ring Sport, which prohibited alot of the techniques that are at the heart of Muay Chaiya. This doesn't mean Kru Tong stopped teaching., nor does it mean that no one was interested in the style at the time. If this was true, then what motivated Tony Jaa to learn Muay Boran before creating Ong Bak? The style being in the public eye has nothing to do with a style "dieing". And there are Muay Korat Kru's as well. They may not be affiliated with the World Muay Thai Council, out of fear of the watering process... but they exist in Thailand. If you studied Muay Chaiya, then this should be common knowledge for you. Whom did you study under? Kru Preang? At any rate, as Muay Boran gains in popularity... more people whom have been practicing in the shadows of Modern Muay Thai, will come forward. :asian:


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## blackdiamondcobra

Thunderfoot:
Kru Tong had alot of students, but few people who were allowed to teach under him. I did numerous interviews with kru tong on tape about this and inherited the notes and did further work with the late Hardy Stockmand and Kru Tong on this very subject. He let people like kru praeng teach but he supervised everything and often he would take the top students and train them from there.  Most of the students didnt teach as well students of his teacher Ajarn khetr taught here and there.  There was little to no interest but Kru Tong continued teaching. Where did you get your information from and where did you train in this system? Its not sources I am giving, its my own research and training since 1992 year after year that I am telling you.  again its conjecture you are bringing up and not actual information.  People in thailand like to rewrite history backward meaning they change the past to conform what they like to do in the future.  There also has been and continues to be a perverse racism against outsiders gaining access to the system in totality covered by the fact that they say they will teach outsiders only to string them along for years and years when they themselves learned the system in a couple of years. I have studied muay korat as well and know all the teachers as well translated all the handwritten documents of the late kru bua which is the compelte system and all techniques, as well I have translated the complete book of techniques and self defense of Kru Tong.  So the knowledge is deep.  I am happy for the resurgence of the old muay and know many of the old masters and have trained with them year after year but again everything has to put into perspective.  There are alot of articles from france, italy, germany and the us with kru tong where he states alot of the problems of trying to get the thai kids to train in the old traditional systems vs the exotics of tae kwon do, etc. He stated at one point he was down to just eight students, (not instructors) and things were tough.  He later got into the universities which was his last bid to try to get it out there and thats where kru praengs help came in.  There were alot of students of his teacher Ajarn Khetr too but in the future preservation of the system, we look to instructors who have completed the system and have the endorsement of their teacher or teachers not the students to carry it into the future in its full breath.  The reason for the preservation society was to try and save it as a resource for thai youth.  Now it is an active resource again and many Thai and foreigners  train in the system and respect it which I am sure would make ajarn khetr and kru tong happy.  People are merely looking at it as it is now or in the last few years but it was a different scenario in the 90s way different.  Anybody who was around back then can easily verify that.


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## PhilDunlap

I would like to comment on this as Vincent is one of the leaders in actual factual research on the South East Asian arts. He was traing in KK long before most westerners had ever heard of it.


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## Thunder Foot

I'm assuming Vincent is Mr. Blackdiamondcobra? Thats great, he has mentiiopned his affiliation with the Buddhai Swan. But we are speaking of Muay Boran, not KK. Appreciate the info though. This makes for great conversation.


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## blackdiamondcobra

The conversation remains focused on muay boran, although the parallels to kk and the development and use of physical education mirrors and shows the same path that muay boran in recent years has taken.  My first book is on bare knuckle fighitng in se asia and india, so my main body of study was the khmer bare knuckle and weapons when I was young then to the thai bare knuckle, weapons and muay thai while living and training there year after year then burmese.  The second book is on the sword arts and the third is on the wrestling methods comprising the three foundations of the old arts.

In order to have these indepth conversations one must also understand things beyond just the martial arts and teachers but the situation with the social and economic views at the time.  This also has alot to do with parents of the younger children steering them to things non thai because of a certain stigma attached to arts like Muay Thai which was considered for the lowest and poorest to fight their way out of their bad situaiton.  It changes over time and thus this has to be taken into the equation.

There is enough written on muay chaiya over the various periods to adequately demonstrate the situation from the different decades.  When you cross reference this to the other information you get a much broader and clearer view.


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## Thunder Foot

Blackdiamondcobra:

My information comes from Kru Praeng as translated by one of his senior students, whom also had the pleasure of training with Kru Tong. The information I was given, varies greatly from that which you have provided. Anyway, in your post... you stated that Kru Tong has mentioned in various articles that he has had trouble teaching Muay Chaiya. Can you provide links or reference materials for these articles? I would like to research these myself. Also, no disrespect to you but you haven't quite stated that you are affiliated with the Muay Chaiya foundation. So how is it exactly that you came into contact with Kru Tong? And more importantly, why would he provide you special notes regarding the entails of Muay Chaiya, when you represent a different style of Boran completely? namely Muay Korat via the Buddhai Swan? The main reason for Kru Tong's inexposure to Muay Thai as a whole, was out of his want to keep Chaiya entact, and not watered down. Also, have you had the pleasure of training with Kru Praeng? I'm assuming you would, in order to know the difference between Tong's and Praeng's teaching methods. At any rate, there are a handful of people training with Kru Praeng whom also had the pleasure of training with Kru Tong. But if you've been training with them since '92, you probably know much more than I do. When was the last time you trained Muay Chaiya, and with whom? because I understand you stated you've been learning Boran with alot of the old Masters since that time, but you weren't specific as to which styles of Boran.

At any rate, refering back to our original discussion, I still don't see justification to attempt to redfine the  term "Muay Boran", without acknowledging the prior existence of Boran. I have been told that the Phys Ed department, and those associated with DeCesaris, give references to Chaiya without having ever learned it. That is a bit of bad taste in mu opinion. :asian:


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## blackdiamondcobra

The articles on muay chaiya are from various countries. I was given a large body of them from a person who was researching it early on then gav eup, from the late hardy stockman and from my own library. none of them are on line as far as I know. I met kru tong though the late Hardy Stockman, editor of the bangkok post, and author of the first book on muay thai in english.  He was best of friends with the late Ajarn Khetr so he had a close relationship with kru tong.  So alot of information came directly from both men as well some training with kru tong. I trained with alot of muay chaiya teachers over the years and kept with two of them which I deem to be true and open to teaching.  I will be training again in a few weeks when I return as I do several times a year.  My teachers will be acknowledged in my book. I didnt say anything about praengs vs tongs teaching, praeng was kru tongs top student, teaching evolves, Kru Tongs teaching is slightly different and varied then Ajarn Khetrs, though all the principles, techs and everything remain intact for all of them, thats the beauty of having a sturdy tree that has wonderul branches.

Buddhai Sawan teaches a generic phys ed system. I learned muay korat from one of the students of Kru bua. The other systems and teachers and full biographies etc will be in the book. I'll try to come back to this at a later date as I am preparing to travel.


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## blackdiamondcobra

Sorry I tried to revise and fix up my last post but I couldnt.

To conclude and return to the original topic, I believe the physical education department had a noble original purpose in putting the muay boran and krabi krabong programs into the school system to instill national pride, self esteem, historical understanding and discipline through the thai martial arts.  I agree with you that it should have been clear about the true origins and masters and included those great stories to make it even more interesting and to acknowledge the actual systems and masters but it never happened. In the growing face of commerce and control, it got worse to where once again they rewrote history for their own making and attempted to erase the actual systems in a bid to push their own agenda.  This is what created this huge mess.

Its a good lesson because it will play itself out again in Cambodia and Burma. The governemnt phys ed department has already seized hold of the 
Burmese arts and we'll see this get stronger and stronger over the years until there is nothing left but a generic template with its own true history.

This is a good topic for that reason. It leads to a deeper understanding of things that go beyond just the martial arts and the teachers.


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## Thunder Foot

Cambodia and Burma you say? Can you tell us a little bit more about that? I know they still conduct the Kad Cheuk style fighting over there, and I was told by my Kru recently that a Dutchman competed there and unfortunately lost. I am not too familiar with Cambodia however. What exactly is the Phys Ed's role in the involvement of the Burmese Lethwei?


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## lhommedieu

Just wondering if you've heard about this guy - and how he might fit into the picture?

Best,

Steve Lamade


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## Thunder Foot

Hmm... haven't heard any information on that person. I'll have to look into it further. It wouldn't surprise me though, because Muay Boran is not limited to a handful of instructors like some would have you believe. The more mysticism put around the art, the easier it is to manipulate enthusiasts. :asian:


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## blackdiamondcobra

Colonel Amnat is a very good friend of mine and an excellent researcher and practitioner.  The idea behind the dvds was try to do something with the strategies and principles of the old arts which are very hard to translate and demonstrate, so alot of the common lines from the old arts can become clearer. Also his work in translating the pichai songkram or thai manual of warfare throughout the years is one of the things that is going to take the thai arts to another level of understanding.  getting our english translation together will produce an outstanding manual that again will reflect upon the entire spectrum of thai martial arts.  The dvds are an overview of theories and tactics then he starts moving into specific tactics of specific systems in this way he can present "muay" or muay boran in another way that shows the real one dimensionality of the phys ed take on it and introduce some of the other neglected elements.


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## Thunder Foot

Thunder Foot said:


> I am not too familiar with Cambodia however. What exactly is the Phys Ed's role in the involvement of the Burmese Lethwei?



Any info on this? :asian:


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## muay saksit

thaistyle said:


> Look at the USMTA website. There was a teacher in New York that teaches muay boran and he is recognized by the World Muay Thai Council. Most other schools are in Europe. Kru Marco DeCesaris wrote a book on muay boran and if i read it right muay boran was the name given to the older styles (muay korat, muay ta sao, muay chaiya, muay lopburi) around 1996 to try to keep them around because all the old masters were dying and know one was continuing the old styles. Panya Kraitus who wrote Muay Thai: The Textbook of Pahiyuth, is a student of a late muay chaiya master and his book is considered to be the bible of muay thai. Check it out if you don't have any luck with muay boran.


 
Marco de cesaris is not a real master of Muay Boran but is a good buisness man!
De cesaris make a big advertising in europ, concerning muay boran fight, in bareknukles, i have see the fight and fighter have not gloves ok as in muay boran BUT the rules was the Kyokushinkai rules!!! not fist or knee or elbow in the head!!!!


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## meth18au

Wow I go for a day or so, and come back to this.  Interesting thread guys, keeps going


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## blackdiamondcobra

I just want to clarify one thing since I have been getting alot of emails from people from around the world on it.  The Muay Chaiya texts by Kru Tong were not translated by me to sell or use in any way other than to learn and use as an explanation in my book of how the system was ordered and systematized by the teachers.  It shows the great thought that went into the system to create a ladder of knowledge that grows in time. As well the late Kru Bua did a wonderful job with the Muay Korat system so we are lucky to have the work of both men as well Ajarn khetr to survive the systems with direct links to the past.  Teachers also in the north east and the north did a wonderful job as well and all the texts do a wonderful job of explaining the systems in unique ways.


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## Thunder Foot

Hello again Blackdiamondcobra.
I just took notice to the old thread being bumped, and saw a few questions I had previously asked that went unanswered. They are quoted below. If you could respond to these, I'm sure it would clear up alot of the "shrouded" confusion this thread seems to be having. It also might interest alot of others in your upcoming book!  Thanks. :asian:



Thunder Foot said:


> Anyway, in your post... you stated that Kru Tong has mentioned in various articles that he has had trouble teaching Muay Chaiya. Can you provide links or reference materials for these articles? I would like to research these myself. Also, no disrespect to you but you haven't quite stated that you are affiliated with the Muay Chaiya foundation. So how is it exactly that you came into contact with Kru Tong? And more importantly, why would he provide you special notes regarding the entails of Muay Chaiya, when you represent a different style of Boran completely? namely Muay Korat via the Buddhai Swan? The main reason for Kru Tong's inexposure to Muay Thai as a whole, was out of his want to keep Chaiya entact, and not watered down.


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## blackdiamondcobra

Anyway, in your post... you stated that Kru Tong has mentioned in various articles that he has had trouble teaching Muay Chaiya. Can you provide links or reference materials for these articles? 

I answered this question previously. I didnt state Kru Tong had trouble teaching Muay Chaiya, he never had trouble "teaching" nor did Ajarn Khetr, the system survives on TEACHERS who can fully embody the system and he was having trouble developing the instructors for the future(he stated this directly into my videotape camera and to hardy stockman and in print). A system can have multitudes of students but the instructors are who teach it and carry it to the future.  It was a different landscape in the years before the "muay boran" craze, the younger kids didnt gravitate toward muay chaiya but other "exotic" martial arts that were taught.  Ajarn Khetr tried to erase the "stigma" of muay thai(the parents seeing it as art of the poor kids desperately trying to fight their way out of poverty and thus something they didnt want their children associated with)by writing about muay chaiya and keeping it as a noble art thus you see alot of the middle class kids like ajarn lek, ajarn praeng being drawn to it and learning when they were young and then extending it to the university level. Even Ajarn Lek when he first started teaching was having trouble attracting students that would stick and stay but once people started to read and learn about it through articles, movies, tv, they came to train. Like I said one french researcher did an excellent article in english Muay Chaiya: fighting for survival, there was some also by hardy though I dont know if they were published, one in english by italian writer and researcher Sergio permutti. The Bangkok Post also always covered the thai martial arts when Hardy was editor and still do. Many others.  Do the research and you will find them.  

I dont understand also your question--are you disputing the fact that muay chaiya was not as popular as it became after kru tongs death?  Muay Chaiya was taught but it wasnt popular by any means, the thais like to rewrite history backwards which is a great quote hardy told me. They see what it is today then go back and add it in the past.  Muay Chaiya survived where other systems died out completely really because of Ajarn Khetr and the writing, teaching and respect he commanded and his ability to put out students like kru tong and many others who dont seek the limelight or teach commercially. remember also kru tong died young or young in my eyes because he was so strong and vital and tough, so alot of this would have been alot clearer if he would have lived on as i thought he would.

I would like to research these myself. Also, no disrespect to you but you haven't quite stated that you are affiliated with the Muay Chaiya foundation. So how is it exactly that you came into contact with Kru Tong? 

Again putting words in my mouth. I am not affiliated to any foundation just my teachers. I am non commercial(I dont do martial arts for money and I pay for my own research and publishing myself) and dont get involved in politics which is what muay chaiya has become like it or not --- a minefield of ridiculous claims and politics. I came in contact as I said previously with Kru Tong through the late Hardy Stockman editor of the bangkok post who was close friends with the late Ajarn Khetr and kru tong, khetr wrote the forward to hardys book on muay thai, the first book in english on the subject.  Hardy had researched Muay Chaiya through his close associations and passed on his work to me and made the introductions in the early 90s. I also met many of the instructors and students who were directly trained by Ajarn Khetr as well as one foreigner who came to train with khetr who provided me with alot of insight and his research. I was lucky to get it from alot of different sources and angles. This is what research is and where my training began.

And more importantly, why would he provide you special notes regarding the entails of Muay Chaiya, when you represent a different style of Boran completely?

I dont represent any system of boran as I said I am not involved in any of thepolitics you seem to be pushing. I started and continue to this day training in muay chaiya. He taught me the basics which i videotaped with hardy and gave me the corresponding notes then later my teachers provided me with the rest as i was learning I was translating and re learning. There are many excellent teachers who are non commercial and unknown but are brilliant teachers of muay chaiya both from ajarn khetr and kru tong and some from both teachers. Nobody could obtain back then kru tongs notes if they werent given to them directly by him or his trusted instructors. wouldnt happen and didnt happen.  Nobody could just acquire it. That is a given. You had to be trusted.

The main reason for Kru Tong's inexposure to Muay Thai as a whole, was out of his want to keep Chaiya entact, and not watered down.

You are totally and utterly wrong.  Kru tong fought against muay thai guys and he actually fought which is something most of his students and instructors didnt do nor learned from him.  Kru Tong told me directly if i had any affiliation with muay thai, i could not speak nor train with him.  They often tried to honor kru tong at muay thai events but he never went and never wanted to be associated with it. I asked Hardy why since it was kind of odd but he said kru tong didnt want any association with it.  I have several american witnesses to this since he said it to me and one famous american muay thai instructor and another fighter.  You can research that easily. If you track the genesis of this it came mostly from Ajarn Khetr who tried to keep muay chaiya seperate very seperate as i said previously from muay thai to keep it in its original form but it got twisted into a further battle as muay thai became more and more popular. kru tong inherited his teachers stand and being tough and brazen further pushed it. Kru Tong didnt need to study muay thai he could fight but I thought he should have seen it as a flow from the old muay to the new muay which was alot of safer and governed by rules.  I remember in alot of the other muay chaiya classes with the people who kru tong taught that went on to teach, they would talk like kru tong everytime you brought up muay thai dismissing it way too easily especially for guys who didnt fight. The fact of the matter is there was a huge disdain for muay thai which was always puzzling.  Probably still exists in alot of the classes. Once again you need to go to thailand and do your extensive research for a few years then we'll argue this and the other points at length. 


 namely Muay Korat via the Buddhai Swan?
The Buddhai Sawan method is not what I taught or represent I went to the buddhai sawan as well as other schools in thailand but its physical education and I went further and re educated myself in other krabi krabong systems that align themselves with the functional real world/combative material which is what i specialize in and teach. Dont CONFUSE my RESEARCH with my TRAINING though it would naturally overlap and associations made, etc. Muay korat is not taught at the buddhai sawan, the buddhai sawan teaches a physical education form of muay. I studied muay korat seperatedly and muay chaiya seperatedly and they are not mixed or diluted. just as I studied each different form of krabi krabong. I keep them as they are. 

In doing research you have to see all ends so I tried to go and learn and interview the many different facets of each art, thus understanding each and also understanding the evolution of the phys ed formats which I went to the grade schools, universities to directly train in to understand them better. Its hard to comment on something you dont try to at least understand from the inside out.  I did my best to do that for the research to be sturdy.

You know nothing of my backround and my training so try not to assume anything about me or my training. If you are going to do research I suggest you get on the plane to thailand and cross reference your material, something I havent seen any thai do and thus the holes in everythign they put out on the internet, in writing, video can have mack trucks driven through them. You will see like I have very clearly what the truth is. I am in thailand several times a year and you can PM when you arrive or before hand and you can address these questions to me in person. The only way to answer the questions you are asking is to personally do the research like I did and be ready to battle your way for the truth if that is what you want. One source, one foundation, one teacher is not going to do it for you or do your research justice. 

I have really nothing more to say on this thread or this topic.


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## Thunder Foot

Thanks for the lengthy reply and the source! You really shouldn't take offense to my questions, judging by the context of your last paragraph. If you are going to make statements about Muay Thai, then expect someone to ask for your resources for said statements. I never "assumed" anything of your background, merely went by what you said. Maybe next time, you should answer quesitons instead of avoiding them. And I have been to Thailand, as I have already stated and have trained Muay Chaiya, so please don't assume you are the authorative figure on whats what with Muay Thai or Muay Boran. If you have research, thats great. But your research doesn't put you above or below anyone elses research, we're all students in this Art. So don't take offense when someone doesn't believe at first glance, that you have "secret notes from the dead Kru of Chaiya, which NO ONE else has seen or heard of." There are many people whom have trained Muay Chaiya alot longer than you, so I would be very surprised to find you had notes of something that hasn't already been taught. 

At any rate, my point in this topic was merely to learn, as I have said from the beginning. Cross reference your research with my own that I have accumulated. But see, that can't be done when someone's references are about how "mysteriously shrouded" Muay Thai and its history is. Because no matter what you say, I've been to Thailand, and I know its not a mystery. And I'm sorry to say, but the only people whom cling to that are those with no credible sources... prime example DeCesaris. But anyway, thanks for your time, and I look forward to your book for a very interesting read.


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## blackdiamondcobra

As I always state and have stated there are no secrets(the book of kru tong as well as the second shorter one with photos on the topic of self defense is known by all muay chaiya instructors and used as an aid to teach and nothing more). The myth building nonsense and secrets are the thais pushing it onto gullible foreigners like De Cesarsis who doesnt go back to see/research that its just modern phys ed and even now in Muay Chaiya in their political infighting on who knows what.  I dont take any stance and have brought people with me to thailand to learn and train for over ten years free of charge many of which continue their own research in thailand and beyond in old muay, muay thai, different forms of kk, lerd rit, healing and massage,whatever. People have come to my home and watched the extensive footage collection of kru tong, the notes, photos, etc to fruther their own training and understanding in muay chaiya after training in thailand as well one of the muay chaiya people came to teach.  My research has been long and on going and continues to this day. I have nothing to hide ever and like I said I am always there in SE Asia several times a year.   I look at it from every angle and every direction and through every teacher and I am about to depart in two weeks again to train and research. Research evolves and changes and I present what I know. I am not an authoritative figure but any means but like I said if you can present something in english that even presents anythign close to the truth send it to me personally or PM. I work with at least one ph.D. advisor for each country to help organize, cross reference and present everything with footnotes and full bibliography so time is taken to be thorough. Sources take a long time to locate and I've been very lucky to have been given alot of previous research and writing that has been abandoned or inherited. My library is extensive in all languages and the translations and the rewriting and understanding is what has stalled the book or what has been the most time consuming since its a cross cultural study and not just about thailand and muay.  There is also nothing in my stance that can be construed as mysteriously shrouded. Its clear and pragmatic. Anyone who knows my writing, my teaching and my research knows its clear, direct and pragmatic. I dont believe in mysteries and if they are there, they are clearly decoded. How I can deal in mysteries when I working in function and combatics? You'll be dead.  

The problem also in translations like for example kru buas material of muay korat its almost like a poem and you need someone to explain and demonstrate and learn from even when the translations are done. So its like learning the system twice just like in muay chaiya.  The notes help understand the material from the teachers perspective and nothing more. There are differences in the kru tong teaching and ajarn khetr, subtle adjustments and things.  If you learn the system, then you learn the system(book or no book). My work is not about myself personally its about the research and training of a specific topic(the cross cultural legacy of bare knuckle fighting in southeast asia and india). What I teach, train and fight in is different. So I dont talk about myself which is why I avoid such conversation. On top of that I take no offense to your questions and answered them concisely. You can join the vanishing flame email newsletter and read some of the lengthy past reports on thailand for the more exact and detailed approaches to the research and the events.  The reports total close to 150 pages of overview from the last several years(1999-present). Hope this clarifies things.


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## Tee Sok

I am an example of much of what Blackdiamondcobra is saying. 

Not knowing where to go to seriously train in Thailand and having been 
previously fooled by people like De Cesaris, l've been told where to go in 
Thailand and since that day things have been going well. 
Serious teachers there just want to do their job, they don't try to off
each other with stupid propaganda and claims. They know each other
and their respective work, they respect each other and are humble and
true to their art and students. This is a sign of maturity in my opinion, 
and I cannot say the same about kru Praeng and others in Europe.

There is a discussion about some of the topics here:

http://www.defend.net/deluxeforums/showthread.php?t=25596


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## Tee Sok

Also, I think we can have a rough idea on how difficult it is to do serious
research and double check, triple check everything with different sources.
Energy, time and money spent just to get things straight and clear and later present them in a neutral, no-nonsense way.

Vincent is sharing his knowledge with whoever wants to listen and is serious, and he's sharing a lot in these posts right here and it is all most 
interesting and can help people finding a way to train and study without
stumbling on individuals who are dedicated to fame and money.


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## TongPo

Try www.muaythailand.com or www.mymuaythai.com


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## Harley_Ninja237

Tommy-sdf said:


> i think any muay boran you find now will be B.S
> 
> 
> 
> thats what my muay thai coach said about most muay boran teachers in thailand
> and if youre not gonna find a good muay boran teacher in thailand imagine how hard in usa


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## Hua Lek

Tee Sok,

Why are you so willing to make claims about someone such as Kru preang whom you have probably never met before?

Just curious...


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## Kwai_Tua_Noi

Hi there 

Im new to this forum and this is the first post Ive made.

My research into Muay Boran has come up with pretty much the same conclusion as BlackDiamondCobra's. Though he probably has more info in Chaiya and Korat styles than mine as i live in the UK and barely have time to fly back to thailand to train properly.

Muay Boran is a general term used by the government and people to describe the ancient fighting styles of the thai people. It was and has been dying out for quite some time due to the fact that it just wasnt popular anymore. With the introduction of western style rules and heavy gambling, the more dangerous of the styles became, how shall we say... unprofitable. Great masters and boxers could not afford to make a living in an art where money could not be made out of it. 

Even thai people (me included a few years back) did not even know of some of the styles such as muay chaiya, Korat, Lopburi and Ta sao. That was how bad it had gotten. Ever since the big boom in Muay Boran created by jaa panom in his movie ong bak it has suddenly become profitable again to teach those styles. Masters of the art are opening up new schools as well as 18 mongkut (conmen) out there to deprive the MT tourists of their money.

A question for blackdiamondcobra. Did you find any good schools that teach Ta Sao style? I know they dont teach foreigners but even though Im Thai its just so hard to find >_<.  Also when will your book be out? i'll gladly buy it in its raw form lol my brain requires this information.

Anyways. Thai people have a habit of wanting to make money out of anything popular. Dont trust anything you see and read in the media or by the government. Do your own research and Buddhas light will shine on you on your path to true knowledge.

P.S blackdiamondcobra are you willing to share your research? lol i was also planning to write a book too lol


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## blackdiamondcobra

Kwai Tua Noi:
Yes, I covered indepth and did alot of training in ta Sao bare knuckle under kru chalong who is very old but in great shape.  My book is a bit delayed in release as it has been for some time but it will have alot of information for people to build further research on.


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## Diesel Noi

well my dear but unknown friend, i`m really glad that at last somebody besides a couple of my friends and i want to really learn the real muay thai, not trying to ofend the ring sport or the other sort of gyms that r teaching the modern and really effective style, this is a link that will help u, the bad thing is that u will only find it in Thailand, the good thing is that is for free and they teach almost all the oldest styles of this, I can`t find the words to describe it, beautiful, amazing, exciting art.

The name is muay thai sangka, go first to the web site, and if u really want it, but I mean REAAAAALLLYYY want to become a muay thai warrior then registrate and go to the appointment that WILL B SCHEDUALED ONLY FOR U.

BEst wishes if u want to go there, it is life changing, and if u do not want to go all the way to Thailand, well there are a few of nice videos about muay boran from Marco De Cesaris


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## mmafan

blackdiamondcobra said:


> Kwai Tua Noi:
> Yes, I covered indepth and did alot of training in ta Sao bare knuckle under kru chalong who is very old but in great shape.  My book is a bit delayed in release as it has been for some time but it will have alot of information for people to build further research on.



Can you please give some more details of Muay Ta Sao style.'Ve seen in a website describing it as a style famous for their kicking abilities and speed , and the real name of the system is ling lom.
thanks in advance


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