# Help convince me to chun.



## avengingbeagle (Dec 6, 2015)

OK, this will be a pretty long post. I will try to be specific, clear and concise. I think it will be worthwhile for myself and others like me, who are interested in wing chun but are having second doubts.

Let me start by explaining my interest in practicing Wing Chun.

1. Health & fitness - I'm looking for a hobby I can practice regularly that will help keep me in shape and up/off the couch.

2. Kung fu cinema freak - I have always loved martial arts movies. I've seen hundreds of classic Shaw Bros, Golden Harvest, independent and modern kung fu flicks. I realize there isn't a lot of Wing Chun in these movies(I'd actually probably do Hung Gar if it were near me) but that's not important. I've developed a deep appreciation and interest in Chinese culture because of this and this is a way to bridge the gap. I should state though: I'm well aware that they are just movies and not representative of reality. I still think they're awesome though! (Bonus points if anyone correlates this with my user name).

3. Self-Defense - This is actually not so important to me. I'm 30 years old and I've never been in any fights. I'm good at diffusing turbulent situations and have no problem looking like a "pussy" if it means avoiding a conflict. HOWEVER: If I'm going to invest a lot of time training in a "martial art", I expect it to pay some dividends in this area. It's also a nice insurance policy in the event that something unavoidable happens.

4. Longevity - I would like to engage in something I can practice as long as I'd like and not have to worry about excessive injury, brain trauma,    Body breaking down, etc.

5. Something I can practice alone - although I plan on making classes regularly, I don't like the idea of being dependent on them. I was originally set on taking BJJ but I don't like the idea of needing someone to practice with. I've got bags/pads/etc at home and can always practice forms alone.

So far, Wing Chun seems to tick all the boxes. I had pretty much convinced myself to sign up until spending all day yesterday reading threads on bullshido...

In addition to being so persistent and savage in their critique of wing chun, a lot of the arguments seemed to resonate with me. Most prominently:

1. No "proof" of effectiveness - why are there little to no videos of guys using wing chun techniques to win or even be competitive fighting against other styles while executing what they practice/teach. Why are there little to no WC practicioners in MMA? Where are the full contact WC tournaments that don't end up looking like poor kickboxing matches?

2. Lack of sparring - It seems the vast majority of gyms are not focused on sparring, if they include it in the curriculum at all. Is it even debatable that you don't have to fight to learn how to fight? I don't think so. It seems a lot of the gyms that do spar are doing it infrequently and without full contact, no head punching, etc.

3. Forms: Are they worth the focus they seem to be given? - "siu lim tao is the basis of everything, it's all there". I hear this a lot and I see how it works but is it time efficient? Would I not be better off practicing my bong sau against a live opponent? Etc. Why not get straight to the matter instead of these esoteric forms? What's the advantage?

4. "He does this, I do _this_"! - We all know the videos. I understand the purpose of drilling the technique before you try to implement it against an opponent(to make sure form is correct and what not) . There just seems to be soooo much of this. What's worse is the guy who you're reacting to is usually throwing some half hearted punch, with poor/unrealistic technique.

5. Is the system fundamentally flawed? - Sure, a lot of Wing Chun sounds nice in theory but does it work in practice? If it does; is this really the easiest/most effective means to the end?

A) It's advertised as being simplified, stripped down, efficient, etc. If that's true a person with 6 months training should be equal to or greater than a boxer with 6 months training(provided similar physique, weight, etc). However, the opposite seems to be true.

B) Not putting any shoulder or hips into punches - Why does seemingly every other system advise the opposite of this? I'm not saying it doesn't work but again: is this really the quickest/most efficient way of doing things?

C) Short range/Infighting - again sounds great but why do we never see WC guys close the gap and get in close against boxers and the like?

D) Trapping/blocking - Even the critics admit some WC trapping techniques seem effective but is there an unrealistic emphasis placed on it? What about the blocking component? This is perhaps most troubling/counterintuitive to me: the idea is to stand within a boxers preferred range(unless/until the gap is bridged) and parry all their shots right? Would it not be easier/more efficient to stay out of range and/or move out of the way, waiting for an opportunity to move within your preferred range? It seems the more shots you take, the more likely it becomes one gets through to you.

E) "Complete system" - I know there are elements of clinching, takedowns and grappling but unless you can stuff a wrestler, stay alive on the ground with a BJJ guy(at least until you can get back up) or shed a Muay Thai clinch, then I'm sorry... It's just not. I'm fine with cross training some BJJ to supplement the Chun, let's just call a spade a spade.

6. "You never see real Wing Chun because it's too deadly, man" - I'm not really gonna touch on this but suffice to say: I'm shocked at how much this comes up as a serious response. I think anyone being objective knows that BJJ could be just as deadly, along with judo, Muay Thai, etc. These martial arts were all adapted to their current sport forms. Wing Chun could do the same.

7. Lineage wars/hero worship/politics/infighting - This is obviously not unique to Wing Chun but it seems to be pretty exaggerated here. I guess this is a minor gripe but it's worth a mention. As an outsider looking in, it was so prevalent it became confusing. Not really all that appealing to someone looking to get involved.

Just to be clear: I'm no fighting expert. These are just things I've heard over and over that make sense to me. I'm not trying to bash WC, I'm just looking for some level headed, objective answers. As I stated before: I WANT to love wing Chun, I really do. I'm just naturally skeptic and I have a hard time taking things at face value. As stated before, if I put the work in I want to get something worthwhile out.

Sorry for the length! I'm sure this is boring/redundant and you've heard and answered it all before but I appreciate your insight! Thank you very much!


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## Tez3 (Dec 6, 2015)

Do you go on political sites and read all the arguments between all the different political views? If you did would they change your mind about your own political views that you have formed from your own thinking and experience just because people are arguing? If the answer is no, I wouldn't go on these sites and no I wouldn't let a bunch of strangers who like insulting each other change my views then you have your answer.
I would say ignore everything you have read on that site, find somewhere you like training and do it. As for videos, they prove nothing and never will. Whatever you train, if you train properly you will get out of it far more than you imagine. The training will speak for itself. You will either enjoy it or not, you may find another style you like better but nothing will beat going to a place and actually trying it out, ignore the arguments on that site, most don't train anything anyway. Just train


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## geezer (Dec 6, 2015)

I'd answer every point, but WC is, after all, said to be "the lazy man's art" due to it's emphasis on efficiency. I'm way too lazy to go to all that trouble. Besides, why take anybody else's word as gospel? If you're really interested, take WC for a solid 6 months, train hard and then _answer the questions yourself_. It's only 6 months, so what have you got to lose?


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## Hanzou (Dec 6, 2015)

Honestly, based on your post I think you'd be better served taking Muay Thai, or a similar striking MA style that has strong roots in MMA. It doesn't seem that WC would be a great fit for you if you're having all of these concerns BEFORE you take a class.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 6, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Honestly, based on your post I think you'd be better served taking Muay Thai, or a similar striking MA style that has strong roots in MMA. It doesn't seem that WC would be a great fit for you if you're having all of these concerns BEFORE you take a class.


I will go out back and shoot myself in the foot then in the face after I make this comment.  I agree with Hanzou on this one.  I was going to reply to the long list of concerns but he's right.  If you are having all of these concerns before you take the class then it's not he right one for you.  You'll just end up training in a system that you don't fully trust.

I don't know where you live but if there is a Jow Ga school near you then definitely do that.  Any concerns that you may have will be gone after the first 2 classes. Forms are important in kung fu because it's part of the conditioning that helps build cardiovascular endurance, muscle strength, and muscle endurance. It also serves as a library of techniques.

But whatever you decide to do, you'll need to be able to trust enough in that system to the point where you aren't going to be bailing out of the techniques.  Most kung fu schools look like basic kickboxing because the student doesn't spend time actually trying to use the techniques when sparring.  That's says more about the student than it does about the fighting system.  We had a student that only did boxing when it came to sparring even though he knew the techniques.  I'm actually able to use kung fu techniques I've learned.  So just because you see someone revert to basic kickboxing doesn't mean that the kung fu system is no good. It usually just means the student doesn't trust the system enough to fight with.  You'll end up the same way if you don't trust the fighting system that you are training in.  Provided that it's not a Mcdojo, avoid those at all costs.


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## guy b. (Dec 6, 2015)

My advice is don't do a martial art; you don't have the perseverance for it and you will probably make excuses and quit very quickly. If you must do something then bjj is probably much more suited to someone of such a fragile mindset than wing chun. I advise you to either do nothing or do bjj. Don't do wing chun. Also don't read bullshido, it is filled with dishonest fantasists who like to criticise.


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## avengingbeagle (Dec 6, 2015)

guy b. said:


> My advice is don't do a martial art; you don't have the perseverance for it and you will probably make excuses and quit very quickly. If you must do something then bjj is probably much more suited to someone of such a fragile mindset than wing chun. I advise you to either do nothing or do bjj. Don't do wing chun. Also don't read bullshido, it is filled with dishonest fantasists who like to criticise.



Haha! Come on man, don't be a silly rabbit. I didn't come here to throw mud or start a flame war. I asked because they're valid questions that I'm interested in hearing answered from the people that DO wing chun. 

Your "do nothing or do BJJ" comment makes absolutely no sense. I guess you're implying BJJ is for "fragile minds". Cool. I'm glad that makes you feel good but we know that it's not true.

I know nothing about bullshido(way to generalize an entire group of people though), this site or any other but they're not the only people around with a negative opinion of WC. Not by a long shot.


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## avengingbeagle (Dec 6, 2015)

geezer said:


> I'd answer every point, but WC is, after all, said to be "the lazy man's art" due to it's emphasis on efficiency. I'm way too lazy to go to all that trouble. Besides, why take anybody else's word as gospel? If you're really interested, take WC for a solid 6 months, train hard and then _answer the questions yourself_. It's only 6 months, so what have you got to lose?



That's a pretty good point. 6 months isn't a lot to lose if it doesn't work out. Thanks!


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## avengingbeagle (Dec 6, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Honestly, based on your post I think you'd be better served taking Muay Thai, or a similar striking MA style that has strong roots in MMA. It doesn't seem that WC would be a great fit for you if you're having all of these concerns BEFORE you take a class.





JowGaWolf said:


> I will go out back and shoot myself in the foot then in the face after I make this comment.  I agree with Hanzou on this one.  I was going to reply to the long list of concerns but he's right.  If you are having all of these concerns before you take the class then it's not he right one for you.  You'll just end up training in a system that you don't fully trust.
> 
> I don't know where you live but if there is a Jow Ga school near you then definitely do that.  Any concerns that you may have will be gone after the first 2 classes. Forms are important in kung fu because it's part of the conditioning that helps build cardiovascular endurance, muscle strength, and muscle endurance. It also serves as a library of techniques.
> 
> But whatever you decide to do, you'll need to be able to trust enough in that system to the point where you aren't going to be bailing out of the techniques.  Most kung fu schools look like basic kickboxing because the student doesn't spend time actually trying to use the techniques when sparring.  That's says more about the student than it does about the fighting system.  We had a student that only did boxing when it came to sparring even though he knew the techniques.  I'm actually able to use kung fu techniques I've learned.  So just because you see someone revert to basic kickboxing doesn't mean that the kung fu system is no good. It usually just means the student doesn't trust the system enough to fight with.  You'll end up the same way if you don't trust the fighting system that you are training in.  Provided that it's not a Mcdojo, avoid those at all costs.



See, that's a solid answer concerning people not sparring enough using the techniques they've learned. Thanks!  I hear that WC don't spar much and from what I've seen, it seems to be true. However, you would know more than me(presumably). Is this issue being addressed or just plain untrue?

Also about forms: I understand how they benefit, I was just wondering if they're as efficient a way to get those same things otherwise. You seem to think yes? I actually like the idea of forms a lot and can see them having good mental repercussions as well(in a meditation type way).

Thanks for the answers. Wasn't trying to ruffle any feathers, just trying to hear both sides equally.


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## guy b. (Dec 6, 2015)

avengingbeagle said:


> I guess you're implying BJJ is for "fragile minds". Cool. I'm glad that makes you feel good but we know that it's not true.



You will feel happier doing bjj because it will get you acceptance, kudos and reassurance on sites like bullshido. You will be rock-solid sure of its fantastic reputation and you will be able to bask in all of the reflected glory. Wing chun on the other hand will leave in a permanent state of introspective doubt and self-loathing. Avoid wing chun for this reason.



> I know nothing about bullshido(way to generalize an entire group of people though), this site or any other but they're not the only people around with a negative opinion of WC. Not by a long shot



Ok, don't do wing chun. Do bjj, you might even like it if you don't give up. Even if you do give up then you can still hang around on bullshido talking about how great bjj is and how rubbish wing chun is in comparison. Bjj or sitting at home on the internet is the obvious choice for you.


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## avengingbeagle (Dec 6, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Do you go on political sites and read all the arguments between all the different political views? If you did would they change your mind about your own political views that you have formed from your own thinking and experience just because people are arguing? If the answer is no, I wouldn't go on these sites and no I wouldn't let a bunch of strangers who like insulting each other change my views then you have your answer.
> I would say ignore everything you have read on that site, find somewhere you like training and do it. As for videos, they prove nothing and never will. Whatever you train, if you train properly you will get out of it far more than you imagine. The training will speak for itself. You will either enjoy it or not, you may find another style you like better but nothing will beat going to a place and actually trying it out, ignore the arguments on that site, most don't train anything anyway. Just train



Hey man, thanks for the reply. I'm picking up what you're putting down about "just train".


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## avengingbeagle (Dec 6, 2015)

guy b. said:


> You will feel happier doing bjj because it will get you acceptance, kudos and reassurance on sites like bullshido. You will be rock-solid sure of its fantastic reputation and you will be able to bask in all of the reflected glory. Wing chun on the other hand will leave in a permanent state of introspective doubt and self-loathing. Avoid wing chun for this reason.
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, don't do wing chun. Do bjj, you might even like it if you don't give up. Even if you do give up then you can still hang around on bullshido talking about how great bjj is and how rubbish wing chun is in comparison. Bjj or sitting at home on the internet is the obvious choice for you.



Look man, drop the internet tough guy act. It's not a good look. Maybe you could take a cue from your fellow posters and try to be level headed and courteous. 

I'm really sorry if I offended you by asking about the martial art you practice(and I'm being sincere here). Maybe I'm completely uninformed and NONE of the questions I've asked have any validity? Fine. Thing is, it doesn't hurt to ask. I'd just like to hear the response from those who would know best. No harm, no foul.

I mean, if I wanted praise, kudos, acceptance and all this: shouldn't I have made this thread on bullshido(where I don't have an account)?


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## yak sao (Dec 6, 2015)

If you don't mind my asking, where are you located and what particular school are you looking at?
Some WC schools fight more than others. I remember many years ago I had a guy drop in to our class who was a WC guy from out of state and was just visiting. He mentioned to his sifu that he was going to train with us and his sifu's response was " oh, those guys spend too much time fighting".


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## avengingbeagle (Dec 6, 2015)

yak sao said:


> If you don't mind my asking, where are you located and what particular school are you looking at?
> Some WC schools fight more than others. I remember many years ago I had a guy drop in to our class who was a WC guy from out of state and was just visiting. He mentioned to his sifu that he was going to train with us and his sifu's response was " oh, those guys spend too much time fighting".



I'm in the VA beach area. There are a few schools in the area. The front runner for me was Gorden Lu's school,  VB Wing Chun. 

Really though, whichever one spars the most is probably the route I'll take.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 6, 2015)

avengingbeagle said:


> Thanks! I hear that WC don't spar much and from what I've seen, it seems to be true. However, you would know more than me(presumably). Is this issue being addressed or just plain untrue?


  There's no real answer to this.  It's going to vary from school to school to school.  The problem that you have is what most schools have "Same style vs Same Style", Wing Chun vs Wing Chun.  This type of sparring isn't that great because it doesn't help the student to learn how to fight against non-Wing Chun fighters.  You'll also need find a place that actually has some sparring or fight experience.  It doesn't have to be professional fight experience, but there is a basic level of understanding that is needed when it comes to using kung fu to fight.  There are certain things that can only be learned by fighting or sparring.  It won't be enough to just spar.  Someone will need to really know how to apply the techniques in a real fight or a free sparring situation against another fighting system other than Wing Chun.

I'll put myself in the "hot seat" and give my school as an example,  I know for a fact that none of the other Jow Ga schools train to fight the same way that students at my school does. We spar, analyze video, trying to understand windows of opportunities, and do drills that other schools don't do.  I'm not saying that what I'm doing is the best way, but I know that when I spar it actually looks like kung fu and not basic kickboxing.  Wing Chun probably has the same story where one school does much better at teaching how to fight using Wing Chun while another school doesn't focus on fighting.



avengingbeagle said:


> Also about forms: I understand how they benefit, I was just wondering if they're as efficient a way to get those same things otherwise. You seem to think yes? I actually like the idea of forms a lot and can see them having good mental repercussions as well(in a meditation type way).


 I don't know how Wing Chun forms are set up but Jow Ga forms are set up as if we are actually fighting imaginary opponents.  My school has a saying "If someone can walk in the middle of a form and not get hurt then the person is doing the form wrong."  If someone tries to hit me from behind then I know how to address it because it's in the form where someone attacks us from behind, from the side, and from different angles. So for the fighting system that I study there is no way to learn it without forms.

With Wing Chun you can watch videos of Wing Chun one on one,  then go watch a video on Wing Chun vs multiple attackers, watch how the stance changes and the movement changes, but  you won't see any of that in the form.  I don't know if that's something that is trained outside of the form or not.  You'll have to ask one of the Wing Chun guys here.

The only thing I can say for sure about Kung Fu.  If you don't trust 100% in a technique then you'll bail out in the middle of it, and it will fail you.



avengingbeagle said:


> Not putting any shoulder or hips into punches


 This method creates good power but bad root. Bad root means you'll probably end up on the ground when you least expect it.



avengingbeagle said:


> "He does this, I do _this_"


 Run away when you see someone teaching like this.  In a real fight, what you'll be able to do is dependent on what your opponent gives you.

The best place to see video of Wing Chun in action is in lei tai fights.  Do a search for "Wing Chun Lei Tai."


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## Hanzou (Dec 6, 2015)

avengingbeagle said:


> I'm in the VA beach area. There are a few schools in the area. The front runner for me was Gorden Lu's school,  VB Wing Chun.
> 
> Really though, whichever one spars the most is probably the route I'll take.



There's a Gustavo Machado gym in Va beach. WTH are you worried about WC?


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## Bill Mattocks (Dec 6, 2015)

Do Isshin-Ryu. All the vertical fist of WC, plus much butt kicking.


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## Tony Dismukes (Dec 6, 2015)

avengingbeagle said:


> OK, this will be a pretty long post. I will try to be specific, clear and concise. I think it will be worthwhile for myself and others like me, who are interested in wing chun but are having second doubts.
> 
> Let me start by explaining my interest in practicing Wing Chun.
> 
> ...



I'm not a Wing Chunner, but I might be able to address some of your concerns...

Re: effectiveness - WC does have a long history of bare knuckle challenge matches with practitioners of other styles. You can find some examples on YouTube of chunners using their art effectively in sparring matches. Do they always win? No. Do all the practitioners manage to maintain good WC form while fighting? No. Have most chunners figured out how to adapt their art to the context of modern MMA? No. However it can be used effectively in a fight and it has been used effectively in fights. Your original criteria stated that self-defense was a secondary criteria. It sounds like you want some combative benefit but you aren't necessarily concerned with studying an art that is guaranteed to be the deadliest or most complete art around. Based on that, I think WC would be fine for you.

Re: forms - we can have (and have had) long arguments about whether solo forms are the most efficient way to practice for combat effectiveness. However your original criteria stated that you wanted a) a way to practice on your own without a partner and b) a connection to Chinese culture. For both of those requirements, forms are a good way to go.

Re: Lineage wars/hero worship/politics/infighting - it's present in every single martial art out there. The good news is that in most cases you can just ignore it and focus on your training. Let someone else worry about whether instructor x is more connected to the "pure original lineage" than instructor y. As long as you are enjoying your training it just doesn't matter.

Re: "complete" art - every martial art out there has areas of strength and areas where it is lacking. Looking at your original list of potential reasons for wanting to study, I don't see anything saying that you want an art that will cover every possible area of combat.

If you have a good WC school available to you, I vote that you pay it a visit and give it a try. If you enjoy it, then stick with it. 



guy b. said:


> My advice is don't do a martial art; you don't have the perseverance for it and you will probably make excuses and quit very quickly. If you must do something then bjj is probably much more suited to someone of such a fragile mindset than wing chun. I advise you to either do nothing or do bjj. Don't do wing chun. Also don't read bullshido, it is filled with dishonest fantasists who like to criticise.



You think BJJ is suited for people with a fragile mindset?
Snort.
giggle.


Thanks. I needed a good laugh.


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## avengingbeagle (Dec 6, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> There's no real answer to this.  It's going to vary from school to school to school.  The problem that you have is what most schools have "Same style vs Same Style", Wing Chun vs Wing Chun.  This type of sparring isn't that great because it doesn't help the student to learn how to fight against non-Wing Chun fighters.  You'll also need find a place that actually has some sparring or fight experience.  It doesn't have to be professional fight experience, but there is a basic level of understanding that is needed when it comes to using kung fu to fight.  There are certain things that can only be learned by fighting or sparring.  It won't be enough to just spar.  Someone will need to really know how to apply the techniques in a real fight or a free sparring situation against another fighting system other than Wing Chun.
> 
> I'll put myself in the "hot seat" and give my school as an example,  I know for a fact that none of the other Jow Ga schools train to fight the same way that students at my school does. We spar, analyze video, trying to understand windows of opportunities, and do drills that other schools don't do.  I'm not saying that what I'm doing is the best way, but I know that when I spar it actually looks like kung fu and not basic kickboxing.  Wing Chun probably has the same story where one school does much better at teaching how to fight using Wing Chun while another school doesn't focus on fighting.
> 
> ...



I love your schools approach to sparring. It sounds like exactly what I'm looking for.

By the way, there is a jow ga school near me that I plan on checking out. They have Sanshou sparring classes and the facilities are open to students outside of classes. Sounds like a good deal. We'll see how it compares to the WC schools near me.

Thanks for taking the time to reply with a measured response. I appreciate it.


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## avengingbeagle (Dec 6, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I'm not a Wing Chunner, but I might be able to address some of your concerns...
> 
> Re: effectiveness - WC does have a long history of bare knuckle challenge matches with practitioners of other styles. You can find some examples on YouTube of chunners using their art effectively in sparring matches. Do they always win? No. Do all the practitioners manage to maintain good WC form while fighting? No. Have most chunners figured out how to adapt their art to the context of modern MMA? No. However it can be used effectively in a fight and it has been used effectively in fights. Your original criteria stated that self-defense was a secondary criteria. It sounds like you want some combative benefit but you aren't necessarily concerned with studying an art that is guaranteed to be the deadliest or most complete art around. Based on that, I think WC would be fine for you.
> 
> ...



There is a reason I posted my criteria in selecting a martial art first. Everybody else seemingly ignored that part, went straight to the second part and just assumed WC wasn't for me because of it.

This was a great post and just the kind of balanced and realistic reply I was looking for. Thanks a lot man.


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## avengingbeagle (Dec 6, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> There's a Gustavo Machado gym in Va beach. WTH are you worried about WC?



Why are you so worried about if I do decide to do WC? I have plenty of reasons(quite a few covered in the OP).

I take it from your avatar that you're a grappler? If/when I do eventually get into BJJ the Machado school was already #1 on my list. Thanks though


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## Hanzou (Dec 6, 2015)

avengingbeagle said:


> Why are you so worried about if I do decide to do WC? I have plenty of reasons(quite a few covered in the OP).
> 
> I take it from your avatar that you're a grappler? If/when I do eventually get into BJJ the Machado school was already #1 on my list. Thanks though



Not worried, simply curious. It would appear that the Machado school is exactly what you're looking for; Lots of sparring, grappling and stand up training, and no katas to worry about. Seems strange that you're seeking a WC school that is more than likely going to be the polar opposite of that.


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## Danny T (Dec 6, 2015)

avengingbeagle said:


> OK, this will be a pretty long post. I will try to be specific, clear and concise. I think it will be worthwhile for myself and others like me, who are interested in wing chun but are having second doubts.
> 
> Let me start by explaining my interest in practicing Wing Chun.
> 
> ...


Not going to address everything you posted.
I train in and instruct Muay Thai, Pekiti-Tirsia Kali, Combat Submission Wrestling, MMA, and Wing Chun. Have boxed and also trained in some Karate systems. As to training WC; it can be a very good experience and you may do very well. It really depends upon how you train. I really enjoy wc. Muay Thai is a proven fighting sport but I have seen some terrible muay thai instructors and practitioners. BJJ is a proven grappling system yet I've seen poor BJJ practitioners. Boxing is a proven fighting system and again there are a lot of poor boxers. Same can be said of wc.

As to the effectiveness of wc, for me though I am a muay thai instructor and have had several excellent nak muays I still train and practice wc. Though I am a mma coach and have had several excellent high level mma fighters I still train and practice wc. Why do I continue with wc? Because with my knowledge and experience in fighting systems and fighting I see the effectiveness and practicality of wc. Another aspect of the martial art you said you were looking for was longevity. I am in my 60's and still practicing wc and gaining new perspectives even today. The biggest problem with most wc I've seen is the lack of any real pressure testing and practice. 

Like geezer already said find a school, visit and watch the training, speak with some of the practitioners and the instructors, train for 6 months then make your decision as to if wc is for you.


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## avengingbeagle (Dec 6, 2015)

avengingbeagle said:


> Why are you so worried about if I do decide to do WC? I have plenty of reasons(quite a few covered in the OP).
> 
> I take it from your avatar that you're a grappler? If/when I do eventually get into BJJ the Machado school was already #1 on my list. Thanks though



Haha, I know you're not "worried". I just wanted to reuse the same word as you because you know, it's a very internet thing to do.

Although I love following BJJ and I will certainly learn one day, I'd like to start with a striking art first(just cause), in addition to the points made in my first post.


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## Eric_H (Dec 7, 2015)

My 2c
If you're young enough to do it still, Muay Thai is a great striking art, I'd start there if i had it to do all over again. WC is hard to be good at, there aren't a lot of things common between the schools and really no competition outlet outside of bare knuckle that lets you play it's strengths.


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## jks9199 (Dec 7, 2015)

avengingbeagle said:


> I'm in the VA beach area. There are a few schools in the area. The front runner for me was Gorden Lu's school,  VB Wing Chun.
> 
> Really though, whichever one spars the most is probably the route I'll take.


Why?  Whatva r e your qualifications to assess whether a school spars enough?  Do you know and understand the methods and reasons involved in their training?  Do your goals include spending time in a ring or dueling?   Do you realize why I included dueling?

Each style and school has a method and theory that shapes their training.   When you choose to train in that style,  you accept that methodology and place your trust in the teachers. If you can't do that,  you might want to reconsider training there.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## Tez3 (Dec 7, 2015)

avengingbeagle said:


> There is a reason I posted my criteria in selecting a martial art first. *Everybody else seemingly ignored that part, went straight to the second part and just assumed WC wasn't for me because of it.*
> 
> This was a great post and just the kind of balanced and realistic reply I was looking for. Thanks a lot man.



No, 'everybody' didn't. I said go look, see for yourself if you like it train, if you don't find something else. I don't know if WC is for you, nobody does, I don't know if BJJ is for you either. You won't know until you actually go and find out. It's simple really, you are asking a bunch of people who don't know you something that is actually quite personal to you, your training. The only answer is to find out for yourself. have a look at as many places as you need to, keep an open mind and enjoy seeing how others train. You will find the place that suits you if you persevere.


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## wckf92 (Dec 7, 2015)

Danny T said:


> ...It really depends upon how you train...



Wisest response so far IMO.

 Regardless of the art trained...


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## Hanzou (Dec 7, 2015)

avengingbeagle said:


> Haha, I know you're not "worried". I just wanted to reuse the same word as you because you know, it's a very internet thing to do.
> 
> Although I love following BJJ and I will certainly learn one day, I'd like to start with a striking art first(just cause), in addition to the points made in my first post.



The Machado school also offers boxing and Muay Thai classes.


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## PiedmontChun (Dec 7, 2015)

A lot of the OP's points sound like hang-ups based on reading about WC but limited personal experience in it. OP, find a WC school near you and check them out. There is good WC, bad WC, and likely plenty that falls somewhere in the middle. Even as an outsider- what you see will tell you a lot about if it is what you are looking for.
But to answer the points that stood out to me the post from the OP:
1) Forms (done correctly) are very important. They teach and practice the very structure you need for any of the movement used, and it reinforces principles of the art as well. Esoteric? More like secrets hidden in plain view. And good for solo practice.
2) On the subject of solo practice...... I would liken WC to BJJ in the sense that it takes regular contact and feedback to develop the sensitivity and reflexes that make WC work, just like how BJJ guys roll constantly. If someone is looking for something to practice at home on their own with limited class time, I would not recommend WC. I don't say this to denigrate other arts at all, but a "harder" striking art like some Karate styles or TKD can likely be practiced solo (in addition to some actual instruction of course) since at lower levels there is much less emphasis on any kind of yielding or deflection. Even boxing might be a better fit since so much of that is working combinations on a heavy bag solo. Its a lot harder to practice the nuances of good WC without a partner.


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## Flying Crane (Dec 7, 2015)

If you need to be convinced to train this or that, then you should do something else.  Something about this or that will not be a good match for you.


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## Marnetmar (Dec 7, 2015)

Okay, here goes:

1. The problem lies in the issue you addressed in #2. The fact is, WC schools have a tendency to either not spar at all, or spar very lightly. In addition, we have a tendency to not train _realistically_, and thus a lot of sparring situations will be presented as WC vs WC rather than WC vs another style. A major component of not sparring realistically also lies in misrepresenting or, at least, misunderstanding how a more conventional fighter I.E a boxer actually fights and how their body mechanics actually work. I'm sure you've probably seen the inside Tan Sau response to a hooking punch. The WC guy's understanding of a hooking punch in this case is simply that a guy is swinging his arm in an arc, when in reality, a boxer will be using his entire body to perform a hook punch, and movement of the actual arm is a minor part of executing the hook punch. Thus, the aforementioned inside Tan technique might work against an untrained street brawler, but it couldn't possibly happen against someone who knows how to throw a proper hook punch unless you outweighed them -- Your structure is as strong as your bodyweight.

2. See #1

3. WC schools do have a tendency to make the forms seem more cryptic and mysterious than they actually are. However, the forms are still an important component.

The reason why is because WC's forms aren't shadow-fights against an imaginary opponent as one might find in a more traditional kung fu style. Rather, they act as your encyclopedia of the tools that one uses, their proper shape and alignment, etc. In other words, they are important to practice because they contain the material that is required to_ learn_ Wing Chun. However, _learning_ Wing Chun and _executing_ Wing Chun are two different things, and people seem to not realize this.

4. Yep

5. I wouldn't say the system itself is fundamentally flawed, but rather that the way it's _trained_ is fundamentally flawed.

A) This is because WC never spars

B) I don't see why WC can't put hips into punches. We always lock are hips into our structure. However, the reason we don't use our shoulder isn't because using the shoulder is bad, but because we simply have a different way of generating force. We lead our strikes with the elbow (think of it as a piston). This allows us to better get our full bodyweight behind a strike.

C) Once again, because WC never spars

D) I wouldn't say that the idea here is to parry all their shots, but rather charge in and bind them up before they can pose a threat. In regards to trapping, the issue is that WC schools tend to use it as a_ means_ rather than as an _end. _

E) People who say WC is a complete system are lying to themselves. It wasn't designed for grappling and such, so why would it be a complete system?

6. Yeah, this is a pretty common logical fallacy among the TMA circles. The fact is, there aren't any "dirty" techniques found in WC or any other TMA explicitly that aren't in arts like Muay Thai, Judo, etc.

7. I think this stems primarily from the Bruce Lee phenomenon of the 1970s. It was made known that WC was Bruce's first art, so naturally a lot of instructors wanted a piece of that pie since it meant big money. If you had the "real" WC, you could be more like Bruce Lee, if not better than him!

TL;DR

I don't think that WC by itself is flawed, but it needs to make _major_ changes in its mentality and how it's trained. That doesn't mean that it's utterly hopeless, however; folks like Robert Chu, Philip Bayer, Alan Orr and Eddie Chong are on the right path, IMO. We just need more instructors like them. In addition, I've successfully used WC to save my *** enough times to say that, once the BS is separated from it, it's a good system -- but the other side of that is the fact that a mugger/untrained street brawler is far different from a trained fighter.

However, just because of that doesn't mean that you must train it. If you can't find a good WC school, then stop wasting your time and train in another more tried-and-proven art like MT or BJJ.

Also, in regards to Bullshido, I tend to stay away from them and look to sites like Sherdog instead in regards to critique on various martial arts and MMA training. Sherdog seems to be more fond of critical analysis than Bullshido and thus will have more folks like Hanzou who will point out the honest strengths and weaknesses of various styles, while Bullshido threads tend to devolve into "______DO/JITSU IS FOR NERDS AND PUSSIES" pretty quickly. I still give them major props for fraud busting though.


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## donald1 (Dec 7, 2015)

I can think of two good ones:

Is it hard? Yes if you do it right you will get tired. You will most likley get bruises too. And classes are usually taken very serious from start to end. Its hard work.
But that will get you to my first point is. 
Its worth it. If you stick with it and give it your best over time you will improve

There is a lot of things you can learn and even some good habits you can pick up along the way


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## guy b. (Dec 7, 2015)

avengingbeagle said:


> I'm really sorry if I offended you by asking about the martial art you practice(and I'm being sincere here). Maybe I'm completely uninformed and NONE of the questions I've asked have any validity? Fine. Thing is, it doesn't hurt to ask. I'd just like to hear the response from those who would know best. No harm, no foul



You haven't offended me, I just think you shouldn't waste your time with wing chun based on what you have revealed about yourself on this thread. It doesn't sound right for you.


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## Treznor (Dec 8, 2015)

3. Forms: Are they worth the focus they seem to be given? - "siu lim tao is the basis of everything, it's all there". I hear this a lot and I see how it works but is it time efficient? Would I not be better off practicing my bong sau against a live opponent? Etc. Why not get straight to the matter instead of these esoteric forms? What's the advantage?
The point of the forms is to practice the ideal positioning / energy of techniques (which is why they're practiced SLLLLOOOOOWWWWLLLLYYYYY).
If you were to only practice against a live opponent, you'd not have the time to ensure your structure is correct and would therefore develop bad technique more easily.

 4. "He does this, I do _this_"! - We all know the videos. I understand the purpose of drilling the technique before you try to implement it against an opponent(to make sure form is correct and what not) . There just seems to be soooo much of this. What's worse is the guy who you're reacting to is usually throwing some half hearted punch, with poor/unrealistic technique.
If you've read / been told about a 'response based' Wing Chun, I'd start looking at other clubs / lineages...  The whole point of WC is that it's a concept based art... You use the right technique for the right situation... NOT just because a certain type of attack is coming in.


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## avengingbeagle (Dec 8, 2015)

Marnetmar said:


> Okay, here goes:
> 
> 1. The problem lies in the issue you addressed in #2. The fact is, WC schools have a tendency to either not spar at all, or spar very lightly. In addition, we have a tendency to not train _realistically_, and thus a lot of sparring situations will be presented as WC vs WC rather than WC vs another style. A major component of not sparring realistically also lies in misrepresenting or, at least, misunderstanding how a more conventional fighter I.E a boxer actually fights and how their body mechanics actually work. I'm sure you've probably seen the inside Tan Sau response to a hooking punch. The WC guy's understanding of a hooking punch in this case is simply that a guy is swinging his arm in an arc, when in reality, a boxer will be using his entire body to perform a hook punch, and movement of the actual arm is a minor part of executing the hook punch. Thus, the aforementioned inside Tan technique might work against an untrained street brawler, but it couldn't possibly happen against someone who knows how to throw a proper hook punch unless you outweighed them -- Your structure is as strong as your bodyweight.
> 
> ...



Hey! Thanks for this excellent post! This is exactly what I was looking for and thank you for addressing the questions individually, I know it was a lot to ask at once.

Do you practice wing Chun? If so, do you cross train any other systems? How long have you practiced WC? I'm curious because you seem to agree with a lot of the assertions but also give a fair representation to why they are the way they are.

I never doubted WC could be effective. My concern was a) how long it would take to attain a basic proficiency b) if it were ideally suited towards certain people (lightweight, short, non-muscular, etc), or If it could easily work for anyone. c) if it took MORE personal evaluation than other systems. As in "this technique doesn't work for me, I'll drop it and add this".

Finally, what criteria would you look for in selecting a school? You mentioned a list of guys that are advancing the art, what are they doing that I should look for?

Thanks again for the excellent response.


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## avengingbeagle (Dec 8, 2015)

PiedmontChun said:


> A lot of the OP's points sound like hang-ups based on reading about WC but limited personal experience in it. OP, find a WC school near you and check them out. There is good WC, bad WC, and likely plenty that falls somewhere in the middle. Even as an outsider- what you see will tell you a lot about if it is what you are looking for.
> But to answer the points that stood out to me the post from the OP:
> 1) Forms (done correctly) are very important. They teach and practice the very structure you need for any of the movement used, and it reinforces principles of the art as well. Esoteric? More like secrets hidden in plain view. And good for solo practice.
> 2) On the subject of solo practice...... I would liken WC to BJJ in the sense that it takes regular contact and feedback to develop the sensitivity and reflexes that make WC work, just like how BJJ guys roll constantly. If someone is looking for something to practice at home on their own with limited class time, I would not recommend WC. I don't say this to denigrate other arts at all, but a "harder" striking art like some Karate styles or TKD can likely be practiced solo (in addition to some actual instruction of course) since at lower levels there is much less emphasis on any kind of yielding or deflection. Even boxing might be a better fit since so much of that is working combinations on a heavy bag solo. Its a lot harder to practice the nuances of good WC without a partner.



You're exactly right about my hang up's being due to limited experience. That's why I came to ask people with wing Chun experience for their thoughts. 

I agree with your assertion about checking out a school and making a judgment for myself. However, fact of the matter is: I've been fooled before. I have no experience with TMA(only boxing) so I don't have a real standard to access certain things. Despite this, I still think you're right.

Also, in regards to solo practice: I mean as a supplement to classes. Of course you need tactile feedback from a partner but If I do something, I commit to it. Meaning, I'd like to practice in some capacity every day. Whether it's forms/stances, punching or whatever. It seems WC would be fine, in this regard.


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## avengingbeagle (Dec 8, 2015)

Flying Crane said:


> If you need to be convinced to train this or that, then you should do something else.  Something about this or that will not be a good match for you.



This was poor wording on my behalf and I regret having used this title. Fact is, I was already convinced. The title should have read something more like "how would you respond to these criticisms of WC?".


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## PiedmontChun (Dec 8, 2015)

avengingbeagle said:


> This was poor wording on my behalf and I regret having used this title. Fact is, I was already convinced. The title should have read something more like "how would you respond to these criticisms of WC?".


Ok, well in that case, I'll throw my thoughts in and be more specific.

2) _Kung Fu Cinema_ - Wing Chun is not pretty. Some movies out there include recognizable Wing Chun techniques in fighting for sure, but always dramatized and more "flashy" for effect. With that said, every now and then I execute something against a classmate and my giddy inner 12 year old self thinks "wow, that felt like kung fu". In an SD situation, I think it would end up looking pretty scrappy though, and I'm ok with that.

 3. _Self-Defense_ - I believe in WC/WT/VT as effective for SD as any other art trained effectively. The fact that it does not rely on strength or speed alone, and emphasizes nuances of angle, structure, and efficiency stripped of any unnecessary movement means you are developing skill that narrows that gap against a bigger opponent, or even allows you to borrow their force. 

4. _Longevity_ - see #3. Skill in WC can increase with time even as speed or strength might decrease.

 5. _Something to practice alone_ - There is plenty to work on solo: forms, footwork, hitting a wall bag, working the dummy at later stages. Contact and training time with people more skilled than you is critical though.

Your other concerns:
1) _No "proof" of effectiveness, why are there little to no WC practicioners in MMA? Where are the full contact WC tournaments that don't end up looking like poor kickboxing matches? -_ That's a good question and likely a huge thread in itself. There are some guys employing WC concepts in MMA competitive contexts. I just don't personally think WC was made to trade punches and kicks with an opponent, with gloves on. Putting gloves on renders a lot of WC's movements cumbersome and blurs a lot of the precision that is trained. Also, there are lots of great arts you don't see in the UFC; that doesn't mean they aren't effective for their intended purpose. Competitive rule sets tend to favor fights going to the ground, which means cross training in a grappling art is pretty much required for entry in that world. I think WC has more sophistication and a longer learning curve than MT or kickboxing for example, so a competitive fighter is going to choose a striking art that they can reach proficiency in the fastest while developing proficiency in grappling, while still at the peak of their athleticism.

 2. _Lack of sparring - _WC schools could definitely spar more, but that's probably true of a lot of TMAs. 

 3. _Forms: Are they worth the focus they seem to be given?_ - The forms are building blocks of the system, emptied of direct application context. It does amaze me when I learn an entire new application or use of a movement within the form, something done 1000's of times but then a lightbulb goes on where I look at it differently. There's a lot of depth in those empty hand forms.

 4. _"He does this, I do this"! - We all know the videos. I understand the purpose of drilling the technique before you try to implement it against an opponent(to make sure form is correct and what not) . There just seems to be soooo much of this. What's worse is the guy who you're reacting to is usually throwing some half hearted punch, with poor/unrealistic technique. _- You have to learn techniques, underlying principles, timing, etc somehow, and it needs to be in a relaxed manner. The pitfall is never ramping up the intensity or applying more pressure, getting stuck in that trap. But just because you are 3-6 months in and no one is full power punching you in the face expecting you to deal with it, doesn't mean the training is lacking. YouTube videos are not a realistic depiction of how someone teaches or train. Some of the best Sifus in the world don't even bother with broadcasting themselves out there, while plenty of hacks do just that.

 5. _Is the system fundamentally flawed?_ - Seems like a loaded question.

A) _It's advertised as being simplified, stripped down, efficient, etc. If that's true a person with 6 months training should be equal to or greater than a boxer with 6 months training(provided similar physique, weight, etc). However, the opposite seems to be true - _Its *simple*, but that doesn't mean its *easy*. Your body doesn't *want* to move in the most efficient manner. You have to train and work hard to fight in a relaxed way using the most economical movement, and to build reflex response where you can respond quickly.

B) _Not putting any shoulder or hips into punches - Why does seemingly every other system advise the opposite of this? I'm not saying it doesn't work but again: is this really the quickest/most efficient way of doing things?_ We do utilize the hip, and adduction of stepping to increase power of strikes, but we don't "commit" to most strikes. The shoulder is not loaded since a vertical fist punch uses the elbow like a piston, like previously mentioned.

 C) _Short range/Infighting - again sounds great but why do we never see WC guys close the gap and get in close against boxers and the like?_ Closing the gap on a boxer seems to be a very difficult thing, but if any art is going to do it, WC can. An opponent trying to throw feints, committed strikes, or trying to keep you at bay with long range kicks..... WC is all about closing the gap in these situations. Some guys think they can just chain punch thru anything and close the gap, so don't listen to arrogant people who act likes its easy.

 D) _Trapping/blocking -_ _Even the critics admit some WC trapping techniques seem effective but is there an unrealistic emphasis placed on it? What about the blocking component? This is perhaps most troubling/counterintuitive to me: the idea is to stand within a boxers preferred range(unless/until the gap is bridged) and parry all their shots right? Would it not be easier/more efficient to stay out of range and/or move out of the way, waiting for an opportunity to move within your preferred range? It seems the more shots you take, the more likely it becomes one gets through to you - _This might be overly simplistic, but if you consistently take the shortest most efficient route to meet an attack, while simultaneously attacking, it *will* overwhelm an opponent, or force them to withdraw from you, then which you would follow. Trapping happens, but its not a technique you do for the sake of itself.

E) _"Complete system"_ - A true grappling system like BJJ, wrestling, or even Judo would complement WC well, in my opinion. Some advertise WC as "complete", and it is complete, for what it does. That's not a weakness. Very few arts attempt to be "complete" in the sense of covering ever scenario for every fighting range.

 6. _"You never see real Wing Chun because it's too deadly, man"_ -This is mostly marketing. There are some brutal strikes and dirty tactics within it though.

 7. _Lineage wars/hero worship/politics/infighting -_ Yeah the politics suck and the WC world is fragmented as a result, but that's not unique to WC whatsoever. Different WC lineages do vary in how the system is taught, for sure. I think people from different lineages would get along better touching hands and learning from each other than fighting thru the internet though.


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## avengingbeagle (Dec 8, 2015)

PiedmontChun said:


> Ok, well in that case, I'll throw my thoughts in and be more specific.
> 
> 2) _Kung Fu Cinema_ - Wing Chun is not pretty. Some movies out there include recognizable Wing Chun techniques in fighting for sure, but always dramatized and more "flashy" for effect. With that said, every now and then I execute something against a classmate and my giddy inner 12 year old self thinks "wow, that felt like kung fu". In an SD situation, I think it would end up looking pretty scrappy though, and I'm ok with that.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the reply. I enjoyed it a lot. I can definitely see how gloves would hamper a lot of WC techniques.

In a combat situation are you supposed to square off with an opponent? No, right? I've heard people criticize WC for this but every sparring video(and every WC-centric king fu movie I've seen haha) they do not do this. 

Do you have any advice at all on what to look for when visiting/picking a school? 

Thanks again.


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## PiedmontChun (Dec 8, 2015)

avengingbeagle said:


> Thanks for the reply. I enjoyed it a lot. I can definitely see how gloves would hamper a lot of WC techniques.
> 
> In a combat situation are you supposed to square off with an opponent? No, right? I've heard people criticize WC for this but every sparring video(and every WC-centric king fu movie I've seen haha) they do not do this.
> 
> ...


Facing the opponent gives you equal use of both hands, so its optimal. Obviously to be mobile, you end up with a lead leg / rear leg type stance, but we strive to still face the opponent square which requires turning at the waist. The Chum Kiu (second) form emphasizes (among many things) taking that stationary stance from SLT and advancing or turning it while keeping it stable with the weight sunk, as well as generating power from the hips. WC stance / footwork is one of the things where it might be counter intuitive in a competition or ring atmosphere where you have fighters dancing / chasing each other around, but it makes sense when you assume you are being attacked and need to be as stable as possible while able to yield.


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## PiedmontChun (Dec 8, 2015)

avengingbeagle said:


> Do you have any advice at all on what to look for when visiting/picking a school?
> 
> Thanks again.



Where are you located?


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## guy b. (Dec 8, 2015)

PiedmontChun said:


> Where are you located?



Bullshido forum I would guess


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## Marnetmar (Dec 8, 2015)

avengingbeagle said:


> Hey! Thanks for this excellent post! This is exactly what I was looking for and thank you for addressing the questions individually, I know it was a lot to ask at once.
> 
> Do you practice wing Chun? If so, do you cross train any other systems? How long have you practiced WC? I'm curious because you seem to agree with a lot of the assertions but also give a fair representation to why they are the way they are.
> 
> ...



Happy to help. WC is my primary art, and I've been practicing it and Northern Shaolin for around 3.5 years. The secret is simply being open-minded and seeking to separate dogma from reality, which is harder for some than others.

As for your concerns, 

A: Depends on the school and how they train. Some WC guys can hold their own in a street fight after three months. Others train for 20 years and can't fight their way out of a paper bag.

B: It's hard to say, really. Folks like Hawkins Cheung (skinny and barely 5 foot) are able to control people like Robert Chu (6 foot and heavy) very easily, but people who have achieved that kind of proficiency are few and far between. In fact, Hawkins Cheung is the only one that I know of (not a Hawkins Cheung stylist by the way).

I'd say that from a strictly practical perspective, it can work for anyone, but someone who is smaller will have to train much harder than a WC guy who's bigger (which, knowing most WC schools, isn't very hard to do. I'm saying this as the resident shortie) to be able to hold his own. WC isn't a magical art, and size makes a difference just as it does in any other style.

C: Once again, hard to say. If you're learning from someone who knows how to apply the art practically, you'll have to do less personal evaluation than someone who's learning from the mckwoon down the street. 

As for what to look for in a school and what the guys I mentioned have in common, it really just comes down to the focus on practical application. If you find yourself going "how in the hell could this possibly work" 24/7, you're at the wrong school.


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## avengingbeagle (Dec 8, 2015)

PiedmontChun said:


> Where are you located?



Hampton roads area. There are a few schools around here. I've already got one in mind but I'll check them all out to see what's up.


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## PiedmontChun (Dec 9, 2015)

avengingbeagle said:


> Hampton roads area. There are a few schools around here. I've already got one in mind but I'll check them all out to see what's up.



I'm not so familiar with that area, but from a quick google search it looks like a couple people who learned under Duncan Leung are in the area, *Lo Man Kam Wing Chun Kung Fu Association* is in Virginia Beach and *Wing Chun Kung Fu Academy, Inc. *in Norfolk, both associated with Duncan Leung. I'm nostly only had contact with people in the Leung Ting lineage or offshoots, but I know Duncan Leung is highly regarded.


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## guy b. (Dec 9, 2015)

Did you manage to go to any wing chun class yet?


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 9, 2015)

Keep us posted on what you decide


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## avengingbeagle (Dec 9, 2015)

Yep! Thanks again to everyone who took the time to answer my questions. You've definitely lived up to the title of "friendly martial arts community".


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## logjthanhlong (Dec 9, 2015)

Getting Started with Wing Chun Training, watch here: Wingchun


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## BamBamx8 (Dec 17, 2015)

avengingbeagle said:


> OK, this will be a pretty long post. I will try to be specific, clear and concise. I think it will be worthwhile for myself and others like me, who are interested in wing chun but are having second doubts.
> 
> Let me start by explaining my interest in practicing Wing Chun.
> 
> ...





avengingbeagle said:


> OK, this will be a pretty long post. I will try to be specific, clear and concise. I think it will be worthwhile for myself and others like me, who are interested in wing chun but are having second doubts.
> 
> Let me start by explaining my interest in practicing Wing Chun.
> 
> ...


I'm about to start taking wing chun  in starting the 2 or 3 of the new year.I was very interested in Muay Thai but the coach did'nt want me to spar.we are of a like mind when you said if you don't spar how will you know if you can fight.I'm taking wing chun for something to do and every little bit helps.Ask up front if you will be sparrinf and if you get a long answer with a bunch of ifs and buts don't go there.I also have seen many home practice videos on utube and I've already started with them just to get the feel.Give it 6 months and you can take what you learn to another class.You can never know too much.Good luck.


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## BamBamx8 (Dec 17, 2015)

avengingbeagle said:


> Why are you so worried about if I do decide to do WC? I have plenty of reasons(quite a few covered in the OP).
> 
> I take it from your avatar that you're a grappler? If/when I do eventually get into BJJ the Machado school was already #1 on my list. Thanks though


I know the guy that runs that school.Its a very good school with a great teacher.Try it!


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## Bkouba (Jan 1, 2016)

Pretty much what everyone else has said, get out there and train! Your concerns are valid of course and if anyone has a problem questioning the validity of what they do that usually indicates something. A big reason people don't question BJJ for example is its proven success against trained opponents ect. But, that doesn't mean you should disregard WC. I never gave it a thought until I trained with Alan orr, at first I only trained wrestling and BJJ and skipped WC class haha. I have seen rubbish BJJ and WC so it really depends on the school and yourself really. Don't lose that inquisitive nature though, it's one of the refreshing aspects of teaching kids. If they see some hokey ******** they'll call you on it. As far as longevity goes it doesn't really matter what you train as long as your smart about it. Focus on building skills and sparring/rolling with people who are trying to help better eachother. Try  not limit yourself you one Martial art or at least find other clubs to train with, my brother trains western boxing and it's always cool to spar against him seeing what works and doesn't. That really is the only way you can be assured what your learning has any merit. And of course have fun!!


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## Chester Wright (Jan 2, 2016)

Not sure if you decided on a school yet or not, but I would like to invite you to come to try our dojo in Virginia Beach, we are located off of Indian River and Kempsville. We are a Jeet Kune Do school, however Sifu Barry (Head Instructor) trained in Wing Chun under Duncan Leung. He is also an 8th degree black belt in Kenpo Karate under Al Tracy and a Black Belt in BJJ under Mike Bejoc and Todd Lawrence, he is also a Senior Full Instructor under Paul Vunak. I know its not full blown Wing Chun but we work all ranges of combat including lots of trapping.


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## ShortBridge (Jan 3, 2016)

I have a lot of respect for Gordon Lu

WING CHUN KUNG FU VIRGINIA BEACH


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## Zeny (Jan 5, 2016)

Personally i think wc is a good system, is fun and easy to learn and definitely works if you practise it correctly. I dabbled in wc for a couple years before switching to taichi as my primary art, so i have some insight, albeit limited, into wc.

Firstly the forms and techniques are well documented and you should not have any trouble learning the correct ones or finding a teacher that is not bs.

Secondly once the techniques are learnt you have to unlearn them. Forget their names and learn to make them a natural and instinctive movement of your body. The techniques are not yours unless you can use them without thought. At this stage, focus on relaxing / stretching your body in order to improve your speed, stamina, touch sensitivity, force, reflex and range of movement.

Thirdly, condition your limbs, for eg by hitting sand bags with different parts of your arm. You need to be able to hit and take hits to your arms and legs without reeling in pain.

Finally, do proper sparring, not merely chi sau. Get some body pads and fight! You will never be an accomplished pilot until you've actually flown a real plane for thousands of hours. Training in a flight simulator is not the same as flying a real plane.

Many students get so obsessed by the techniques that they get stuck at the first stage. If you don't complete all 4 stages, don't even dream of using wc (or any other self defence art) in a real fight.

I have never gotten into a real fight my whole life but i have a martial arts teacher who competed in those chinese sparring matches (lei tai) for many years. During their 20s their training is extreme, they would train palm strikes on sand bags (up to a thousand hits a day) for years, then use secret medicines to treat their hands so that they don't permanently damage their hands through such vigorous training. If their single palm strike does not KO their opponent they treat that as a personal loss. How do you go against someone like that if you only play around with techniques and sticky hands?

Proper chinese martials arts is not for show, if is for killing your opponent or breaking their limbs. It is not meant to be fun, a hobby, or a scientific study into body mechanics, although it has turned into these things in modern days. And i'm perfectly ok with that.


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