# Karambit?



## Nightingale (Sep 20, 2003)

Anyone have any info on its history?


----------



## pesilat (Sep 20, 2003)

The two stories that I've heard are that it was developed to mimic a tiger's claw or a rooster's spur (cockfighting is still pretty popular in southeast asia).

Given that the word "ayam" = chicken and seems to be the root word of "karambit" (assuming the "r" spelling is a bastardization or something of "kayambit"), I'm inclined to believe this one. However, the tiger claw theory holds a bit more appeal.

Is that the type of "history" you were looking for? Or were you looking for history of usage?

In use, I think it has served mostly as a general purpose utility blade. Though I think some of the larger versions were probably used agriculturally (like sickles). And, of course, they've been used as weapons 

Mike


----------



## Michael Billings (Sep 20, 2003)

I had wondered about it given the recent rise in popularity in the Kenpo/Arnis lineage guys.

See you soon at Camp Lansdale.  Any special requests?

-MB


----------



## pesilat (Sep 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *I had wondered about it given the recent rise in popularity in the Kenpo/Arnis lineage guys.
> 
> See you soon at Camp Lansdale.  Any special requests?
> ...



While it is used in the Philippines some, I think its recent popularity rise in the Filipino arts here in America is a cross over from Silat. The FMA guys mingling with the Silat guys and seeing it, then starting to investigate it. Don't know about its popularity in the Kenpo community, except that there are quite a few FMA people who are also involved in the Kenpo community. But that's just a guess.

Yup. I'll see you at Camp Lansdale. I'm pretty excited about it. It's always a good time and always fun to get down there and hang out with the crew in Nacogdoches.

Requests? Nah. I'm a real easy going guy. I'll enjoy anything you want to bring out 

Mike


----------



## Michelle (Sep 22, 2003)

Here you go...

====================
According to oral tradition that was passed down from master to student for centuries, prior to 1280 AD, most of West Java was part of the indigenous Pajajaran kingdom. The Badui tribe of West Java, the aboriginal people of Sunda, considered to be the ethnic group of the Pajajaran, lived relatively peacefully until the coming of the Majapahit empire (circa 1351 AD).  At that time the Badui tribe quickly migrated to the rugged mountainous regions of the west, brought their weapons with them and remained self-governed

The kings of the ancient Sundanese kingdom were considered very powerful. When a king died, his subjects believed that his spirit flitted into the jungles and became the spirit of a tiger. There are two terms for the tiger that rules the jungles of West Java. One is Harimau, which is the generic Bahasay Indonesian word for tiger, and the other is Pak Macan (pronounced Pah-mah-chahn - sometimes anglicized and spelled Pamacan) which loosely translates to great tiger. Thus, the great tiger is very much revered by the Sundanese.

So awed were the ancient Sunda peoples by the power and ferocity of the Pamacan, that the common blade of the people was patterned after the shape of the claw of Pamacan. This very large blade was known as Kuku Macan, or claw of Pamacan. Literally translated as tiger claw, the Kuku Macan was revered symbolically as well as practically employed in battle.

As the saying goes, Necessity is the mother of invention. Like the development of the Western dagger, the Kuku Macan blade design came in smaller sizes and eventually found itself in the smallest size  the very personalized Karambit

The Karambit is also referred to as the Kuku Bima (literally the claw of Bima). Pre-12th century influence as a result of Hindus settling in Indonesian archipelago, brought the Mahabharata (great epic of the Bharata Dynasty) and the Ramayana, (two major epics of India, valued for both high literary merit and religious inspiration), to Java. Contained within the Mahabharata is the Bagavadgita (the Lords song) which is the single most important religious text of Hinduism. Bima is one of the most revered characters from the Mahabrapta.

Also known as Kuku Hanuman (literally the claw of Hanuman), the magical claw, which protrudes from between the center of the hands of Bima and Hanuman  has become recognized as a symbol of the martial arts of the Indonesian archipelago, namely Pencak Silat and is often attributed as one of the roots of the overall Karambit design.
==============================
---Excerpt(s) from Steve Taranis book Karambit Exotic Blade of the Indonesian Archipelago

Cheers,
Michelle


----------



## Nightingale (Sep 22, 2003)

way cool!  Thanks!!!!!


----------



## Michelle (Sep 22, 2003)

No prob.


----------



## Cruentus (Sep 22, 2003)

Some good history there. Where did you get it from?


----------



## Michelle (Sep 22, 2003)

Hi Paul...---
Excerpts from Steve Taranis book Karambit - Exotic Blade of the Indonesian Archipelago mostly.   

That particular is blade is ummm....kind of a personal passion of mine.... The modern ones being made right now are really impressive (Strider esp.), but the history of the blade I think is just as interesting and impressive....not to mention the way its used.  

Michelle


----------



## Cruentus (Sep 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michelle _
> *Hi Paul...---
> Excerpts from Steve Taranis book Karambit - Exotic Blade of the Indonesian Archipelago mostly.
> 
> ...



I agree that the history is quite impressive. And (if you don't mind me saying so w/o sounding sexist) but I am impressed with your knowledge and passion for the weapon especially because you are a woman. I don't find many women who are passionate or even interested in weapons based martial arts, or about a bladed weapon especially. There are a few here on MartialTalk, but I am yet still impressed when a woman has some useful information regarding a weapon, or weapons training. You, along with only a select few other gals I know who are into it, are one-in-a-million! 

Please take what I say as a compliment; and I apoligize in advance for sounding like a dork.


----------



## Michelle (Sep 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *I agree that the history is quite impressive. And (if you don't mind me saying so w/o sounding sexist) but I am impressed with your knowledge and passion for the weapon especially because you are a woman. I don't find many women who are passionate or even interested in weapons based martial arts...........
> .....
> .......Please take what I say as a compliment; and I apoligize in advance for sounding like a dork.
> ...



*Paul* 

No apology necessary, and no you didn't sound like a dork.  Guess what?  I don't find many women who are passionate or interested either... seems I am often the solitary gal, be it class, seminar, or what-have-you.  Sometimes it's hard.  

I worked the Blade West show this entire past weekend (guess which booth?  LOL), and the ratio there was truly glaring.   I think I was the only female there that was actually doing any demo or spar work.  But it's okay.  It takes all kinds to make this world spin.   The weapons that have truly resonated with me I choose to research and know their histories well, whether its the kris (keris), the karambit or the new Strider-Buck-Tarani MV-k.   I would do no less for my friends.  I know them well and I know their histories.  And your weapons, like your friends, are something you may need to rely on someday in a major way.  It's good to know them well.

Thanks again for your kind words.
Michelle


----------



## OULobo (Sep 23, 2003)

Michelle

Have you seen and what's your take on the run of custom knives that have been popping up everywhere. I saw the F.Feather and Hemoglobin designs by Blair T. Toys (found on Triple Aught Design Gear Inc. website www.tadgear.com).


----------



## Michelle (Sep 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by OULobo _
> *Michelle
> 
> Have you seen and what's your take on the run of custom knives that have been popping up everywhere. I saw the F.Feather and Hemoglobin designs by Blair T. Toys (found on Triple Aught Design Gear Inc. website www.tadgear.com). *



*OULobo* 

Greetings.  Actually, I am at work and can't get into the TAD website because of our filters...so....I will have to go off the top of my head.  

First, I need to give the disclaimer that I haven't held either one yet.... SO, that being said....  I think they are both beautiful looking pieces, but really, I guess we could open for debate here, what makes a karambit a karambit?  It's not simply a knife with a finger hole in the handle.  The history of the karambit specifically revolves around the curvature of the blade.. the tiger's claw aspect...so if I'm going to be a hard-*** purist (which I kinda am with this particular blade), I wouldn't consider either one to be in the karambit catagory.  I consider these more like hybrids....

The Hemogoblin has basically no curvature at all.  So the traditional technique of hooking for trapping/cutting is out the window.  It *does* make it more effective for slashing with the inside edge, so that will probably make most people not familiar with using a karambit more comfortable with it.  I also really like the reverse tanto, but again, it's such a departure from the traditional "tiger's claw" blade, I really don't look at it and think "oh.. there's a karambit". 

The F.Feather is in the same boat in a different way... the crescent of the blade is actually reversed from that of a tigers claw...almost like a small panabas.   I would actually like to get my hands on one of these just to see how it feels in a reverse retracted grip, because visually, it looks like it would feel strange.  The second index hole is interesting too, but I'm not sure what it's for?  I can only guess that perhaps it's for your index finger when holding the knife langit grip?  Again, I would like to play with one of these in person.

Neither one has a rear break, so that would be a concern as far as how comfortable and stable is it going to be when you get it out to the reverse grip extended position.

Again, they are both beautiful blades.  I believe both are S30V and G10.... can't ask for better.   However would I consider them karambits?  Not really.  Some techniques rely very much on that whole tiger claw curvature of the blade which is absent in both these knives.  

Maybe I am too narrow minded in that regard?  Perhaps that would be a good questions to ask others.   What makes a karambit a karambit?

Thanks for asking about this.  You got my little pea brain working this morning!

Michelle


----------



## OULobo (Sep 23, 2003)

My interest in the karambit comes from training some silat that exposed me to it. Ever since, it has had a feel about it that is just as intriguing as a barong, keris or kukri. 

I see what you mean in terms of the hybrid designs verses the traditional designs. On the other hand I have seen quite a few variations on the traditional karambit come over from villages in the malay area, so I tend to not be so strict with the definition. 

I do agree that the two designs I brought up are pretty different though. The second index hole in the 'goblin must be for forehand grip. I have been drooling since the strider karambit came out, but it's just too pricey form me. I know his weapon has an established fan following and user base, but recently the market has been hit with floods of cheapies. The most obvious is the M-Tech/BOSS design (which I wouldn't mind if it wasn't so bulky). I have a cheap Pakistani made karambit that I picked up online. It is crap steel and made to sell to rednecks with fancy knife addictions, but with a pretty traditional design. have you seen these and what is your opinion. If I get a chance, I'll post a pic. I have a few traditional (although I think contemporary) peices and one more expensive model, and with my carrying and usage habits I don't want to destroy or have to ditch these, any cheapy recomendations. My most recent choice has been the Hibben Claw II. 

Also, what is you experience training with the karambit?


----------



## Michelle (Sep 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by OULobo _
> *I have been drooling since the strider karambit came out, but it's just too pricey form me.]*


* 

What price range are you wanting to stay in?  PM me if you don't want to post that.





			I know his weapon has an established fan following and user base, but recently the market has been hit with floods of cheapies. The most obvious is the M-Tech/BOSS design (which I wouldn't mind if it wasn't so bulky). I have a cheap Pakistani made karambit that I picked up online. It is crap steel and made to sell to rednecks with fancy knife addictions, but with a pretty traditional design. have you seen these and what is your opinion.
		
Click to expand...


I've seen some.  The M-Techs and BOSS folders scare me quite frankly.   A $17 knife.... I don't know.  I like my fingers.  A liner lock from a $17 knife?  I wont go there.  Are you talking fixed models?   I'll take a Pakistani crap steel fixed over a disposable folder any day, but that's just me.  It can do the damage in a pinch as long as you spend a little time taking care of the blade. There are some cheapies coming out of Japan now too that I hear are ok if you want a disposable.  




			If I get a chance, I'll post a pic.
		
Click to expand...


That would be great if you would....




			I have a few traditional (although I think contemporary) peices and one more expensive model, and with my carrying and usage habits I don't want to destroy or have to ditch these, any cheapy recomendations.
		
Click to expand...


Not really, but I will ask around and get back to you on this.  Am I allowed to ask what your "carrying and usage habits" are?     My EDC is a Journeyman folder.   I would be sad if I lost it or had to ditch it, but it wouldn't break my heart like if it was some pretty piece from Java....




			My most recent choice has been the Hibben Claw II.
		
Click to expand...


Can I pick your brain on the Hibben?  What do you think of it??  What do you like and/or dislike about it?




			Also, what is you experience training with the karambit?
		
Click to expand...

*
My experiences have been very enjoyable.       Sorry.  Not sure what you mean.  Are you asking who I've trained under?

Cheers,
Michelle


----------



## arnisador (Sep 23, 2003)

I've been hoping to hear a review of one of the folding karambits. The only way I'd be likely to get much use out of a karambit is if it folded.


----------



## Cthulhu (Sep 23, 2003)

A lot of the folding kerambits I've seen have one distince flaw (in my opinion): when the blade is closed, it intrudes into the hole.  The only way for a finger to fit in the hole is with the blade open, so closed use is pretty much out.

Michelle-Have you seen the Hossom/Dionaldo kerambit?  I think it debuted at a recent knife show.

I recently acquired the original Hibben Claw.  While it doesn't have the traditional shape of a kerambit as most know it (i.e., with the hole in the handle), it's a very nice little blade.  I like how it locks in with a snap into the sheath.  Makes for a very quick draw.  The only problem is that the blade is double-edged, so carrying is out of the question.  I am considering grinding the outer edge down so I can carry it.


Cthulhu


----------



## kenpohands (Sep 23, 2003)

Hello there,
Seeing in how you enquire about Karambits and you are involved with Kenpo, You might get an interest in my website
http://www.kenpokarambit.com
check it out and let me know what you think.
Angelo Collado


----------



## Nightingale (Sep 23, 2003)

Mr. Collado -

You have some excellent information there! Thank you for the link.

-N-

PS- your forms site helped me get ready to compete in my very first tournament a few years back.  thanks!


----------



## OULobo (Sep 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michelle _
> *What price range are you wanting to stay in?  PM me if you don't want to post that.*



I'm looking for about $60 and down.



> _Originally posted by Michelle _
> *I've seen some.  The M-Techs and BOSS folders scare me quite frankly.   A $17 knife.... I don't know.  I like my fingers.  A liner lock from a $17 knife?  I wont go there.  Are you talking fixed models?   I'll take a Pakistani crap steel fixed over a disposable folder any day, but that's just me.  It can do the damage in a pinch as long as you spend a little time taking care of the blade. There are some cheapies coming out of Japan now too that I hear are ok if you want a disposable.*



I don't like the bulk of these M-Techs, but I think the excessive bulk is all that gives them any amount of strength. I also don't like the blade protruding into the ring, as was mentioned by Cthulu. This limits the uses if unopened. I like my little Pakastani jobbie. Its fixed and nice and small and it does have the back barb for good hooking.  




> _Originally posted by Michelle _
> *Am I allowed to ask what your "carrying and usage habits" are?     My EDC is a Journeyman folder.   I would be sad if I lost it or had to ditch it, but it wouldn't break my heart like if it was some pretty piece from Java.....*



I usually carry at least a couple of Spyderco or Benchmade products. I have a few Kershaws and a few S&W items. I carry them all the time unless I am traveling on a plane. I load up with multiples when I go out. This is where it gets sticky. If I get in a fight, I would have to be in some serious trouble to draw, as I can usually handle the situation without a blade, but when it is over I don't want to have anything on me when the law arrives to settle up. This is when disposible is good for me. I have a few karambits from around Indonesia. I have one from Aceh, South Sumatra, North Java. 



> _Originally posted by Michelle _
> *Can I pick your brain on the Hibben?  What do you think of it??  What do you like and/or dislike about it?*



I have been fairly happy with it. Decent steel for the price, nice feel, and I love the "horns" on the ring. Things I don't like include; snags from the "horns", no easy way to deploy or stow, no real grip, and I have already broke one. 



> _Originally posted by Michelle _
> *My experiences have been very enjoyable.       Sorry.  Not sure what you mean.  Are you asking who I've trained under?*



Yep, not fishing, just wondering


----------



## Michelle (Sep 24, 2003)

*Cthulhu* 



> _Originally posted by Cthulhu _
> *A lot of the folding kerambits I've seen have one distince flaw (in my opinion): when the blade is closed, it intrudes into the hole.  The only way for a finger to fit in the hole is with the blade open, so closed use is pretty much out. *


*

I personally would never buy a karambit where the blade protrudes into the hole.  Emersons don't and neither do the Taranis.   I have no idea how or why people put that design into production and I don't know why anyone would buy one.   I can't imagine being able to deploy one of those with any amount of speed.  It's just plain weird.  




			Michelle-Have you seen the Hossom/Dionaldo kerambit?  I think it debuted at a recent knife show.
		
Click to expand...


Nope but I've heard good things about Dionaldo so I will have to go check it out.




			I recently acquired the original Hibben Claw.  While it doesn't have the traditional shape of a kerambit as most know it (i.e., with the hole in the handle), it's a very nice little blade.  I like how it locks in with a snap into the sheath.  Makes for a very quick draw.  The only problem is that the blade is double-edged, so carrying is out of the question.  I am considering grinding the outer edge down so I can carry it.
		
Click to expand...


Again, the emerson and tarani folders are single-edged so that's all good.  There are also a handful of Strider fixed karambits out there with a false outer edge for those who want to carry the fixed but can't have a double-edged for legal purposes (each State seems to have such different laws).  The Hibben Claw is inexpensive enough so grinding the outer edge wouldn't be too much of a shame and would be a good solution. 

I'm going to go see if I can get a peek at the Hossom/Dionaldo (if this darn Surf Patrol software will let me).   

Michelle*


----------



## Michelle (Sep 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by OULobo _
> *I'm looking for about $60 and down.*


*

Hmmmm.   For fixed you can find some really reasonably priced authentic stuff at Kris Cutlery.  And they sharpen the crap out of their stuff.   Check them out.  As far a folders go, you would have to double that figure to get something really good like a Journeyman IMHO.




			......If I get in a fight, I would have to be in some serious trouble to draw, as I can usually handle the situation without a blade, but when it is over I don't want to have anything on me when the law arrives to settle up.
		
Click to expand...


As long as it's within the legal limits of your State for carry, why?  Justifiable self-defense.  Plus, there is always that age-old practice of burying it in a planter somewhere nearby and go back for it later.  I had to do this at the airport once when I spaced out and kept a good knife on me instead of putting it in the checked bag.  It was actually still there 3 days later when I got back from Florida.    




			Yep, not fishing, just wondering
		
Click to expand...

*
Ummm, I do a bit of training here and there under Steve Tarani.  Mande Muda based, but practical application (not so much emphasis on traditional forms, but practical application based on the forms if that makes sense?).   Also training with Angelo Collado (who posted above I believe) which is very challenging as I don't have the kenpo background so I have to form some new habits rather than reverting to ones I already have.  

You said you had some Silat background??  Which one?  Serak?  Mande Muda??  Not fishing, just wondering.   

Michelle


----------



## OULobo (Sep 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michelle _
> *
> You said you had some Silat background??  Which one?  Serak?  Mande Muda??  Not fishing, just wondering.
> 
> Michelle *



I have done some Mande Muda, about 3yrs collective and some Manigkabau Hari Mau, about a year, and a smattering of some others. Most of my training is FMA and Bando, but I mix a lot. I have been trying to get to a Tarani seminar but they seem to be too far off and at bad times. I'm sure I'll get to one sooner or later. 

As for the laws in this state, they are vague about what is concealed and what is not. I have heard of cases where the police are justified in arrest and confiscation because a clip looked like a pager, depite the fact that the knife blade was under the length for the legal definition of a knife as a weapon. Its just easier to do like you mentioned and ditch it until I can hopefully get if back.


----------



## Stick Dummy (Sep 24, 2003)

I concur with Michelle, If you are serious about folding Karambits, get either the Tarani or Emerson Folders. PERIOD!
  I have both and rotate them once in a while as both work & play EDC's.

The M-Tech #008B is the biggest POS I have ever seen!!!! Virtually everything is WRONG with it.


Best current US fixed blade variant is the Strider H-S hands down.


I received an e-mail from Jerry Hossum saying he would not be making the "Kerambitch" (his name for it).

 If anyone knows different please let me know. it looks superlative for a EDC.


Just saw a Hibben Claw at work( the new one) a coworkers EDC, the spurs on the top of the safety ring negate forward and backward manipulations, and it seemed a little thin in my teeny leetle paw. 

  But its better than that MTech stuff. :barf:


----------



## Cthulhu (Sep 26, 2003)

Michelle,
A picture of the kerambit in question, the 'Kerambitch' can be found in the following thread:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=128120#post128120

 Stick dummy,

It'd be a shame if Hossom chose not to make and market those.  I think Guro Ray has some trainers based off of the 'kerambitch', and they look nice.  If Hossom doesn't make 'em, maybe someone else will.

Cthulhu


----------



## Phil Elmore (Sep 27, 2003)

SelfDefenseGear.com sells a *modified version of the M-Tech folding kerambit*.  I did a lengthy article on the original folding M-Tech kerambit and the modifications done by James of SDG.

Recently I picked up one of the inexpensive M-Tech fixed-blade kerambits and will be reviewing it in a future issue of _The Martialist_.


----------



## Stick Dummy (Sep 27, 2003)

Phil,


  Interesting article on the MTech Karam:barf:  

  I didn't catch whether the "Quasimodo hump" in the middle of the front grip was removed or not.......

  It kinda destroys the ability to index and use it as a karambit as is traditionally taught in IMA schools.

  My experiences with the one in my "Don't Buy" reference collection is that the  liner lock release tab will also disengage when the MT is  used for quite a few of the Penchat Silat techniques.

 Why did M-Tech put an Emerson Wave (patented) on the fixed blade version? It looks an awful lot like infringement to me. 

Not trying to "ping" or "flame" on you, just looking for answers since the subject was brought up.

:asian:


----------



## Phil Elmore (Sep 27, 2003)

> Why did M-Tech put an Emerson Wave (patented) on the fixed blade version? It looks an awful lot like infringement to me.



It's a thumb ramp.  You can't Wave a fixed blade;  it's an _opening_ mechanism by definition.


----------



## arnisador (Sep 27, 2003)

That's a good price ($15 for the basic model)--it's worth playing around with it at that price. I tried to buy it but their software choked on my credit card. Maybe I'll try another time.


----------



## Seig (Sep 27, 2003)

but as StickDummy has been teacing Penjak to me and my students andhas given us a love of the kerambit.  I'm gonna stick something in here.
This is a link to a website carrying the Hibben Claw II.  It seems they are out of stock.  A few of my students and assosciates have the weapon, and I have my opinion on it.  I thought I would throw it out here for you all to discuss.Hibben Claw II


----------



## arnisador (Sep 27, 2003)

That's a very reasonable price too. I really am partial to folders though. I know all the arguements against them and I agree--but for how I carry them, folders are far and away the most convenient.


----------



## Michelle (Sep 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *I really am partial to folders though. I know all the arguements against them and I agree--*



*Arnisador* 

What arguements if I may ask?  My EDC is a karambit folder... I think it's a good choice.... as long as you choose a good knife for it.

M


----------



## Michelle (Sep 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Cthulhu _
> Michelle,
> A picture of the kerambit in question, the 'Kerambitch' can be found in the following thread:
> http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=128120#post128120



*Cthulhu* 

Thanks for the link.  I searched for days and found nothing on it.  I was actually at Blade 2003 in Atlanta (where the thread said the prototype was shown) but was working it so I didn't get to see much of what was out on the tables.

That is one fine looking blade and it's going to be a shame if they don't make it.  Anyone know why it might have been abandoned?   It's interesting how the profile of the blade looks more like the folders (dimension and degree of curve) yet its fixed.  They've got the rear break too which is awesome. 

Pretty pretty.  Hope they make it.

Michelle


----------



## Cthulhu (Sep 29, 2003)

I seem to recall that the name 'kerambitch' was coined because of the difficulties involved with making the blade.  If this is true, then perhaps Mr. Hossom decided it would require too much effort to make these in any significant quantity.

I could be mistaken, though.

Cthulhu


----------



## arnisador (Sep 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michelle _
> *Arnisador
> 
> What arguements if I may ask?  *



That folders can break/refold on you when you need them--they're less sturdy.

Plus, there's the time required to open them when they're needed.


----------



## OULobo (Sep 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by OULobo _
> *I have a cheap Pakistani made karambit that I picked up online. It is crap steel and made to sell to rednecks with fancy knife addictions, but with a pretty traditional design. have you seen these and what is your opinion. If I get a chance, I'll post a pic.*



Here's the pic of my fun little Pakistani POS.


----------



## OULobo (Oct 9, 2003)

The new Tactical Knives issue has a whole article dedicated to karambits inside.


----------



## MNKaliGroupRayW (Oct 11, 2003)

I have a fettish for the Kerambit that started when I began my Mande Muda Silat training. 

In the last year I found both the Claw 2 and the M-tech knives. Based on price alone I bought them to check out.

While the Hibbing Claw 2 is thin (standard 440 stainless) because most don't have the handle wood, (I did find some with wood for about $7.00 more at Smokey Mountain Knifeworks) It's design is very well suited for both the extended and reverse grip methods. Those tabs didn't bother me, and they actually make the extended grips stronger. It's dimensions are small, but not to most international kerambits. (not everyone has hands as big as 6'2 americans) And at $17.00 ea. they were the best deal out there on fixed blade kerambits.

My take is the M-tech is flawed but cheap enough for entry level users. I bought two, ground the blade off one for practice and experimened with carry and drawing.  I can't believe the clip position, - obviously made by none users. If you carry left handed you can make some allowances, but not much good otherwise. After repeated practice the frame screws seem to be loosening, but a hex wrench and some "locktight" should remedy that. Overall I would still purchase these just because the price was right, $15.00 on Ebay. 

In a world of $100.00 fixed and locking Kerambits, these are good for people who are curious about the design, and seek comparison to other knives.

PS. Arnisidoor- Where did you find your handmade Pakistani Kerambit?

Ray


----------



## arnisador (Oct 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MNKaliGroupRayW _
> * Arnisidoor- Where did you find your handmade Pakistani Kerambit?*



Are you sure you didn't mean to ask *OULobo*?


----------



## Michael Billings (Oct 12, 2003)

I just did a throwing & knife fighting seminar with Gil Hibben this weekend.  It was great fun with tomahawks and throwers, but I also picked up one of the Hibben Claw 2's and a folder I liked.

It is a servicable kerambit, but not for someone with huge hands.  I am 5'9" and about 200 lbs., not petite hands, but if I was any bigger I would need a little more thickness through the handle for serieous work.  I do like the thumb tab for the grip.  His throwers have a serrated area for thumbs with the idea being a "Chinese Fist" type grip secures the weapon and gives better control for wetwork or throwing.  I am not saying others are not better, but it was cool being taught fighting technique and throwing by the man who designed the blades.

-Michael


----------



## Michael Billings (Oct 12, 2003)

Whoops, I forgot.


----------



## pesilat (Oct 12, 2003)

Incidentally, Sifu Billings, the Harimau Silat (ground work on Friday night) that I showed at Camp Lansdale makes heavy use of the karambit. The blade adds a whole new dimension to the material 

Mike


----------



## OULobo (Oct 13, 2003)

I just returned from a rather long flight to TX to train Mande Muda with Ibu Rita Suwanda, current head of the system, this past weekend. One of the days gave a few hours to karambit work and history. I'll post a review in the Indo forum for anyone interested.


----------



## pesilat (Oct 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by OULobo _
> *I just returned from a rather long flight to TX to train Mande Muda with Ibu Rita Suwanda, current head of the system, this past weekend. One of the days gave a few hours to karambit work and history. I'll post a review in the Indo forum for anyone interested. *



Absolutely. Ibu Rita is excellent. I've attended several seminars with her.

Mike


----------



## Guro Harold (Oct 13, 2003)

Hi All,

Here is an update and info on some of the kerambits in this thread:

Guro Ray Dionaldo and Jerry Hossom's Kerambit:

- Handmade, there will be only a few made with those already spoken for.

- There is supposed to be a manufactured line coming out soon.

Ray Dionaldo Kerambit:
- Look for a fixed and folder production model soon .  Details to follow!

To see Guro Ray in action with a kerambit trainer, go to www.ncfcskaliusa.com/kerambit.html.

MTech:
- SharpPhil did have an excellent review of the Mtech kerambit and the modifications.  He can correct me but it had average performance for  it to be a "knock-off."  I carry it as the expendible knife. Mtech has released a modification with the blade not protruding inside the O-ring. 

The Boss Kerambit and Keen Edge Knife Works Kerambit:
- Has obtained/reviewed  these yet? Hard to get!

Like OULobo, I also read the current Tactical Knvies magazine.  The article is on page
82.  If anyone is interested in learning more about Craig Camerer's kerambit and knives, his website which was not in the article is www.camererknives.com.
The picture of his kerambits are as follows:
http://www.camererknives.com/images/scan800.jpg
http://www.camererknives.com/images/1keram.jpg

Hibben Claw II:
 - I have a couple at my place with the Micarta handles as shown in the picture as well as one without.  They are pretty cool, but not for spinning!

Take care,

Palusut


----------



## OULobo (Oct 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Palusut _
> *
> MTech:
> - SharpPhil did have an excellent review of the Mtech kerambit and the modifications.  He can correct me but it had average performance for  it to be a "knock-off."  I carry it as the expendible knife. Mtech has released a modification with the blade not protruding inside the O-ring.
> ...



Nice sum up of the stuff on the market right now. 

I had heard that there was a new version of the M-Tech karambit, but I hadn't gotten a chance to play with one yet. If they can make the clip reversable, make it a slimmer and get rid of the blade-in-ring issue, then I think it would be a great cheapy. 

A note on the BOSS version: I heard somewhere (can't remember where) that BOSS had the designs from the designer first and that politics and personal/business disagreements led to the designer selling the design to M-Tech also. The design was changed in superficial ways to avoid litigation, manufactured in China and marketed at a lower MSRP.  This might be confirmed by the fact that BOSS dropped from a higher original price to one more like what you can get the M-Tech version for. 

I recently took one of the Hibben Claw IIs and ground off the ring nubs (which was suprisingly easy considering it is supposedly stainless). This thing works great for spins now.


----------



## Michelle (Oct 13, 2003)

*Palusut and All* 

Another one to add to the potential Christmas list?    

Cutter knife and tool just released there 1st production run bengal karambit.   Heres a link:

http://www.tadgear.com/edged tool...al_karambit.htm 

I would like to hear anyone's take on this new production karambit.  I have not yet been able to get my hands on one but am hoping to in the near future.

Peace,
Michelle


----------



## OULobo (Oct 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michelle _
> *Palusut and All
> 
> Another one to add to the potential Christmas list?
> ...



Bad link! I think because it automatically appreviated itself.


----------



## Cthulhu (Oct 13, 2003)

I think Palusut was trying to link here:

http://www.tadgear.com/edged%20tools/bengal_karambit.htm

Cthulhu


----------



## Guro Harold (Oct 13, 2003)

That was Michelle's link actually.  Thanks Michelle.

Here is the official cutters knife and tools link here:

http://www.cuttersknifentool.com/bengal.htm

I have some hot news about the Cutters kerambit but I am not supposed to say yet. 

Details coming soon though!!!


----------



## OULobo (Oct 13, 2003)

These have the same problem with clip location. They don' t look like they are "left hand" reversible. Can't clip into a pocket and draw ring up in the right hand.

I do really like that ivory handled fixed blade from Camerer that Palusut posted. Pretty and looks sturdy and really traditional.


----------



## Guro Harold (Oct 14, 2003)

Hello Everyone,

I just wanted to announce that Master Ray Dionaldo has become the spokesperson and endorser of Cutters Knife and Tool's Bengal Kerambit folder.

The Bengal is Cutters Knife and Tool's production version of Reese Weiland's kerambit design.

For a picture of the kermabit or more information, please go to the following locations:

http://www.ncfcskaliusa.com/order_form1.html
http://www.fcskali.com

Master Ray Dionaldo and Jerry Hossom's  production model kerambit will be available around Christmas.

Thanks,

Palusut


----------



## Michelle (Nov 3, 2003)

Has anyone seen a picture of The Raven yet?  I think it was one of the karambits covered in the Tactical Knife article?   Cutters official site still doesn't have pix yet........

TIA,
Michelle


----------



## Guro Harold (Nov 3, 2003)

Hi Michelle,

I found some pictures for you of Reese Weiland's Raven shown below:

http://www.knifeart.com/ravenkarambit.html
http://www.888knivesrus.com/category/customsand1onlys/

Mr. Weiland's Raven starting price is $450.00.

If you notice the picture, it is exactly like the production model of Cutters Knife and Tool's Bengal.

Take care,

Palusut


----------



## Michelle (Nov 3, 2003)

Thank you Palusut!  For some reason I was under the impression the Raven was a fixed karambit... guess not.

M


----------



## Guro Harold (Nov 3, 2003)

You're welcome Michelle!

I don't know myself all the possible configurations of the "Raven".  So it might be a fixed blade as well.

Palusut


----------



## Michelle (Nov 3, 2003)

Palusut,

Funny, but it is actually the Cutters Knife and Tool site that lists it as a "fixed" karambit, although there are no pictures.  

When you go to Mr. Weiland's site though it shows up as a folder (with a nice damask blade!  sweet...)... but there is no mention of the Bengal anywhere?  I'm wondering what the differences are between the two.  And also if it's a "typo" on the CKT site regarding a fixed Raven.  

It's a mystery!  

I've sent out an e-mail to see if someone can sort all this out.  If anyone else knows the lowdown, can you please post?  I'll post what I find out. 
:asian:

Peace,
Michelle


----------



## Guro Harold (Nov 3, 2003)

Hi Michelle,

I think that it is probably a naming issue.  Basically speaking, like what is being done with other knives, is that there is a fixed and folder version from the same designer.

If you refer to the Tactical Knives article, the top fixed knife is probably the Raven.

On the same page, the bottom folder is the "Bengal."

So here is my guess (could be wrong), Mr. Weiland owns the "Raven" name, while for the collaboration, Cutters owns the "Bengal" name.

Take care,

Palusut


----------



## Michelle (Nov 4, 2003)

*When all else fails... go to the source....* 

Palusut, WOW, you were right on the money with the naming issue.... received the below e-mail this morning:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"......Cutter decided to change the name of the knife when they bought the rights to the design from me to the Bengal.  I call mine the Raven.  The fixed blade version they currently have is basically one of my Wasps with a finger ring on the back.  A picture of it appears in the Jan 2004 issue of Tactical Knives on page 82 directly under the Tarani one.  They are calling this I believe the Bengal fixed.  I would post a pic but I don't have one.  

I am currently making a fixed blade with the exact open profile/size of the Bengal folder for them.  I also have one extra in s30v I am making up for sale but the blade is bead blast not satin.

Hope that helps.
Reese
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So there we have it.    
Michelle


----------



## arnisador (Dec 30, 2003)

There is an article in the current Black Belt on it, featuring Ernest Emerson.


----------



## DerespinaKnives (Dec 30, 2003)

Hi All,
   This is my first post here and thought I'd chime in as I see you are discussing something near and dear to me. Firstly...I am a karambit knife maker specifically and have been for the last 3 (or more) years steadily. That aside, I see you have mentioned the M Tech fixed blade Karambit...that one happens to be a direct rip off of my custom Model 1 Karambit (originally made by me over two years ago) that can be seen it my website or at sites like www.tadgear.com or www.knifeart.com . Granted, I as a custom maker make no two alike but for sure it is my profile design that they stole and prouced with inferior materials at a fraction the cost. WIth paying me or acknowledging me or simply asking me ! So, having held M Tech knives another folding Karambit designed by Liong Mah (who they also ripped off !), I can safely say they make CRAP !. I guess it isn't bad for a below $20. knife but you get what you pay for. It's these cheapies that are precicely the cause of so much crackdown by the police here in NYC on respectable knife carriers. Why ? because they are the knives a thug would be and use to commit a crime with because they are throw aways. That's another issue all together. Just beware the knock off compay's is all.:soapbox:  LOL Anyway, I am ta=ranting, nice to stop in and see that Karambit have taken a major place in the true knife users repetoire as well as the knife collector. I have been waiting for this day..he, he...now the WORLD ! 
There are plnty of other Karambit out there that are well made and good quality. The Strider Karambit is a good one, the Dionaldo designed Hossom custom is a good one as well. Reese Weilands Raven as you have mentioned is also a good one(haven't held the Bengal/Cutter version yet ?). I love the new Liong Mah/Rick Hinderer Folding Karambit, that is in my opinion the best folding karambit yet. Ofcourse Steve Ryan makes a mean Karambit and Warren Thomas' Karambit's have been great also. No shortage of these babies nowadays. Good lucking choosing the right one for you. Taka care happy new year.....Rich


----------



## Rich Parsons (Dec 30, 2003)

DerespinaKnives, aka Rich,

Welcome to Martial Talk. Please feel free to give more information on your knives and or questions in the knife arts forum or The ProShop Forum.

Once Again

Welcome
*
Rich Parsons
Assistant Administrator
*


----------



## DerespinaKnives (Dec 30, 2003)

Rich,
 Thanks bro ! much oblied for the welcome. As for my knives they can be seen at the following links:
http://knifeart.com/ricder.html

http://www.tadgear.com/edged tools/custom knives/richard_derespina.htm

and lastly at my website
www.derespinaknives.com

as well, there are pics that have yet to be posted on my site as I look for a new webdesigner in the meatime so I can email them to anyone interested. I have 6 models of Karambit available as well as several new ones to come and some other fixed blades also. Thanks again, like what I see here fellas. Take care.....Rich


----------



## Guro Harold (Dec 31, 2003)

Welcome Rich,

You got some cool kerambit designs!

If you could please give us some basic stats and prices for your kerambits.

Look forward to seeing the info.

Palusut

P.S. Your website url in your signature is missing missing a "k".


----------



## DerespinaKnives (Dec 31, 2003)

Palusut,
  Thanks alot. I am glad you like them and I am happy to be here. As for prices, I don't know if it would be appropriate here to show prices. They run anywhere drom $140. - $400. dependant on the model from neck knife to the Model 6 Karambit. However, for anyone interested..feel free to contact me and I can send you a list. As of now the current wait time is 3 - 4 months. All the Karambit are made with either ATS 34 or S30V steels. HT to about 60- 61 Rockwell. They are predominantly chisel ground as I feel that make the best wound. It makes for a traingular wound that because of the punctures geometry it is least likely to close and there for the opponent would just keep bleeding  I occasionally make some double ground versions and hollow ground versions but at my leisure as they are usually one of a kinds. Actually all are one of a kinds as I never make two the same way regardless of model number. I always am doing something to the handles or to the blade grind to make each one a little diferent from the next so I don't repeat myself and the customer has his or her own "one of a kind" so to speak. I usually use G10 but will sometimes use Micarta or Titanium scales. I try to make my knives as comfortable to hold as possible. All my Karambit have a dimple in the hanlde or grip changes should that be your preferred method of grip change. Thanks for pointing out the missing K, much obliged. Hope that covers it ? Take care .....Rich

PS, here's a pic of the model 5 with Ti scales serrated...


----------



## Rich Parsons (Dec 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DerespinaKnives _
> *Rich,
> Thanks bro ! much oblied for the welcome. As for my knives they can be seen at the following links:
> http://knifeart.com/ricder.html
> ...



Rich D,

THank you for the links. Nice looking blades. Even though I know little of the style, yet I am always learning.

As to Web Design, Kaith Rustaz one of our Admins is a professional Web Hosting and Web Designer. He might be able to help you. 

His web page is Silverstarsites.net A link can be found at the bottom of each page. 

Thank You Again


----------



## DerespinaKnives (Dec 31, 2003)

Thanks Rich, I will haveto get in touch with Kaith ! I have a good host for next to nothing, I just need someone who's adept in design to re-do my site and tweak some new pics I have and add pages and stuff. Thanks again bro.....Rich


----------



## Michelle (Dec 31, 2003)

Wow.  Nice work.  I like the Model 6.  Very nice you've got the rear break on all of them too making them good to go in reverse grip extended.

What's the measurements on the ring?  One inch diameter?  Looks like the rings on Models 1 & 2 are bigger than on the 4 & 6 but it could just be the angle of photos or a trick of the eye as the G-10 covers all the way on the 4 & 6.

Very nice, and yes, you can definately see your design all over the M-Tech.  There's a special place in hell for people who steal other peoples art.

Michelle


----------



## DerespinaKnives (Dec 31, 2003)

Michelle,
 Thanks so much. Yes they all have a small rear break and all the finger rings are 1" diameter. Hopefully I won't be there to meet the MTech guys when they get to hell LOL ! The models 4and 6 are just 1/8" thick as I felt flicking technques are best done with lighter blades and these are quite large especially the 6 with a 6" blade. Not that you should flick a large battle karambit, that would'nt be smart usually but for the forms practitioner they might want to. I will make some 3/16" versions of these as well with 1/8" scales to slim them down a bit as well. Eerything else is 3/16" thickness. Peace....Rich


----------



## Guro Harold (Dec 31, 2003)

Rich D,

I am partial to Model 03 - BGJ, SKEL1, and SKEL2. They are cool!!!

Palusut


----------



## Stick Dummy (Jan 1, 2004)

Hey Rich!

Nice to see you posting here!!

  Good to see someone who knows "a little" about Karambits posting similar findings on those P.O.S.  MT rip offs. God they make me sick.......

  I hate to say it, but they will probably smear serious practioners of the FMA/IMA's as those crappy zinc handled  balisongs did in the 1980's.

  Your designs still look great, keep up the good work.


----------



## Seig (Jan 1, 2004)

Rich,
Welcome to Martial Talk!
I have a question, it is probably silly but I'll ask anyway.
Do you make trainers?  Also, do you make "left-handed" models?
The reason for the second question is this, a friend of mine makes some trainers for us to use at my studio, where he teaches his FMA/IMA skills, I noticed that some of his trainers were distinctly left or right handed.  I realise that this would not necessarily be an issue with a fixed blade model, but may be with a folder, especially if it has a clip on it.
Thanks


----------



## DerespinaKnives (Jan 2, 2004)

Seig, Stickdummy and Palusut, thanks again for the shout outs !
Palusut, I like the model 3 a lot as well, it has a Barong-ish style to it but still maintains a few of the needed attriutes of a karambit. The Model 2 has more the traditional hooked blade but within most legal limits (in single edge) I usually make them double edge though. It has just a bit of modernism to it to also. Thanks !
Seig, I have been thinking of making trainers but haven't had a chance to get to it, although I eventually will do it. As for right or left, they as fixed blades are ambidextrous although as chisel grinds this may make whichever side you prefer face the opposite when in use. That wouldn't change it's performance at all though. Sometimes as I have mentioned I make them double ground so that would be best probably for a lefty. The sheaths can usually be used on either hip or in the small of the back as well. As for a trainer in lefty, it shouldn' matter as it's the profile that is universal. In a folder there would definately have to be some changes. I am working on a folder and would probably make some lefty's also. However, the folder won't be out for almost a year from now as I have toio many fixed blade designs to complete on the drawing board. Thank you so much.
SticDummy, I cannot agree more ! Those cheap *** knives you can get in any head shop or in chinatown or on that late night tv knife show SUCK ! and will be the very things that will restrict honest knife users from being legally able to carry a knife. Here in NYC a few weeks ago they did a huge crackdown on those type of knives as they considered them ILLEGAL ! While I don't like them they are for the most part not illegal to carry but it's the rise of knife related crime with these very cheap knives that genereated fear in the local government enough to confiscate a lot of legal knives as well as illegal knives. They are just going haywire now ! Sheeesh ! Thanks you as well. Take care .....Rich


----------



## OULobo (Jan 8, 2004)

Did everyone see the new karambit article in this month's Blackbelt mag?


----------



## DerespinaKnives (Feb 20, 2004)

Thought you guys would get a kick outta these cool pics TAD just took. JUst keeping the KArambit discussion going here...LOL...Peace....Rich
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



and


----------



## DerespinaKnives (Feb 20, 2004)

DerespinaKnives said:
			
		

> Thought you guys would get a kick outta these cool pics TAD just took. JUst keeping the KArambit discussion going here...LOL...Peace....Rich
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 DAMN ! I screwed that one up ! Okay here are the link anyway... :idunno: 
http://www.tadgear.com/edged tools/custom knives/model_6.htm

http://www.tadgear.com/edged tools/custom knives/model_41.htm


----------



## Guro Harold (Feb 20, 2004)

Very nice!!!!


----------



## DerespinaKnives (Feb 20, 2004)

:uhyeah:  Thanks Palusut.....Rich





			
				Palusut said:
			
		

> Very nice!!!!


----------



## OULobo (Mar 5, 2004)

Anyone have any word on the fairly new Spyderco karambit. It's priced at $160-90 and looks alright. Seems to have a sturdy design, but the blade is really small. Comments.


----------



## KenpoGirl (Mar 5, 2004)

DerespinaKnives said:
			
		

> DAMN ! I screwed that one up ! Okay here are the link anyway... :idunno:
> http://www.tadgear.com/edged%20tools/custom%20knives/model_6.htm
> 
> http://www.tadgear.com/edged%20tools/custom%20knives/model_41.htm


 

Those be Scary Lookin' Knives. Excellent defensive weapon though. The Attacker faints dead away at the site of them. :anic:

Dot


----------



## DerespinaKnives (Mar 5, 2004)

Thanks Kenpo Girl ! much obliged...

OULobo, have you ever handled the Warren Thomas version that the Spyderco is modeled after ? His version is excellent ! if the Spydie is anything like it, it must be good. However, thus far I have heard 50/50 opinions on it. Most say it is significantly slimmer and less of a handleful than Warrens version. Don't know personally but I am going to the NYC knife show today and will take a look at the Spyderco table. Be back with a first hand account. Peace.....Rich


----------

