# IJF bans Judo athletes from participating in Bjj tournaments



## Hanzou

International Judo Federation Prohibits Judo Athletes To Compete in BJJ & other Grappling Competitions | Bjj Eastern Europe







Pretty crazy rule if true.


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## K-man

I'm not sure that is what it is saying. It is preventing *IJF ranked *athletes from competing *in international* competition unless authorised by the IJF. What international BJJ tournament is there apart from the Mundials and even then, why would a top ranking  judoka want to compete in a BJJ championship? It doesn't make a lot of sense to me. 
:asian:


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## Brian R. VanCise

Top level athletes will want to compete it is sad that the Judo organization feels threatened.  Definitely sad for their athletes!


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## jezr74

Is this to prevent high ranking Judoka from competing against low ranking BJJist? Does the competition side work like that?


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## Hanzou

K-man said:


> I'm not sure that is what it is saying. It is preventing *IJF ranked *athletes from competing *in international* competition unless authorised by the IJF. What international BJJ tournament is there apart from the Mundials and even then, why would a top ranking  judoka want to compete in a BJJ championship? It doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
> :asian:



Theres also ADCC, and Metamoris is slowly gaining popularity. I'm sure there's plenty of smaller competitions out there as well. Those aren't Bjj per say, but they are submission grappling competitions that Judoka have entered in the past, and performed well in. Why would a top ranking Judoka want to compete in a submission grappling tournament? Mainly to test their abilities against other grapplers, and enhance their art.

Supposedly the IJF wants to also begin a Newaza competition in the near future (not holding my breath on that one). Bjj stylists are going to flock to that, unless the IJF finds a way to lock them out of it. In the end, rules like this just hurt Judo in the long run.



jezr74 said:


> Is this to prevent high ranking Judoka from competing against low ranking BJJist? Does the competition side work like that?



I don't know. That would be a pretty ridiculous reason, since quite a few high ranking judoka also practice Bjj, and like to compete in Bjj competitions.


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## ballen0351

Much ado about nothing.  The Organization wants to protect its top level athletes from getting hurt in other people's events or drawing money for other organizations.  Most sports when you get to highlevels have clauses like that.  Usually it's in a individuals contract not organization wide but it happens all the time.  I have an aquantiance that plays professional football he's banned by contract from taking any martial arts classes during the season.


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## Tony Dismukes

BTW - the rule would also seem to apply to MMA as well as BJJ competition.


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## Tony Dismukes

ballen0351 said:


> Much ado about nothing.  The Organization wants to protect its top level athletes from getting hurt in other people's events or drawing money for other organizations.  Most sports when you get to highlevels have clauses like that.  Usually it's in a individuals contract not organization wide but it happens all the time.  I have an aquantiance that plays professional football he's banned by contract from taking any martial arts classes during the season.



If the IJF was paying the salaries of the competitors involved, then I would agree with you. (Especially if they were getting paid pro football money.)


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## Tony Dismukes

K-man said:


> I'm not sure that is what it is saying. It is preventing *IJF ranked *athletes from competing *in international* competition unless authorised by the IJF. What international BJJ tournament is there apart from the Mundials and even then, why would a top ranking  judoka want to compete in a BJJ championship? It doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
> :asian:



Travis Stevens (Judo Olympian) is also a BJJ black belt and competes in BJJ.


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## ballen0351

Tony Dismukes said:


> If the IJF was paying the salaries of the competitors involved, then I would agree with you. (Especially if they were getting paid pro football money.)



I don't think the IJF cares.  It's all about protecting the IJF.  Any other combat sport is a rival to them.  Allowing it's athletes to participate in other organizations puts $ in the other groups pockets.  
They will probably try to disguise this by saying they are worried about athletes safety but I believe it's more about not wanting it's people helping other organizations


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## Tony Dismukes

ballen0351 said:


> I don't think the IJF cares.  It's all about protecting the IJF.  Any other combat sport is a rival to them.  Allowing it's athletes to participate in other organizations puts $ in the other groups pockets.
> They will probably try to disguise this by saying they are worried about athletes safety but I believe it's more about not wanting it's people helping other organizations



You're probably right. That doesn't mean anyone has to like it. I've seen nothing but negative reactions to this from all my Judo and BJJ friends.


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## ballen0351

Tony Dismukes said:


> You're probably right. That doesn't mean anyone has to like it. I've seen nothing but negative reactions to this from all my Judo and BJJ friends.



I wouldn't expect people to.  I have lots of rules at my job I don't like.  You either accept it or quit.  If it bothers them that much I guess they have a choice to make


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## Hanzou

ballen0351 said:


> I wouldn't expect people to.  I have lots of rules at my job I don't like.  You either accept it or quit.  If it bothers them that much I guess they have a choice to make



I think this is going to force the creation of a competing governing body of Judo, or cause a lot of Judokas to just take up Bjj instead.

I'm fine with either personally. The more Judokas taking Bjj and exchanging ideas and techniques the better.




Tony Dismukes said:


> Travis Stevens (Judo Olympian) is also a BJJ black belt and competes in BJJ.



Yep. I can't imagine he's happy about this. Isn't he part of Renzo Gracie's competition team?


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## elder999

ballen0351 said:


> I don't think the IJF cares.  It's all about protecting the IJF.  Any other combat sport is a rival to them.  Allowing it's athletes to participate in other organizations puts $ in the other groups pockets.
> They will probably try to disguise this by saying they are worried about athletes safety but I believe it's more about not wanting it's people helping other organizations



Yeah. They suck.....good things right out of judo. :rpo:


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## ballen0351

Hanzou said:


> I think this is going to force the creation of a competing governing body of Judo, or cause a lot of Judokas to just take up Bjj instead.
> 
> I'm fine with either personally. The more Judokas taking Bjj and exchanging ideas and techniques the better.



I doubt it.  Like anything else when it comes to change people will complain and throw a fit and maybe a few will leave but in the end nothing will happen.  It's hard to break up the establishment.  Kinda like how nobody can take down the NFL many have tried and they all fail.  Now that may be an extremely example since all the fighting organizations combined don't produce the cash flow the NFL does but you get the idea.


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## Steve

The mu dials are only one of a dozen or so IBJJF events each year.  Other organizations also host international grappling events   It's far from just the mu dials. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Tony Dismukes

The IJF posted a statement regarding the matter, which was quickly taken down due to the backlash. You can read the cached version here. 

Apparently having judoka cross over into BJJ, Sambo, etc will lead to spiritual contamination. :miffer:


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## Hanzou

Tony Dismukes said:


> The IJF posted a statement regarding the matter, which was quickly taken down due to the backlash. You can read the cached version here.
> 
> Apparently having judoka cross over into BJJ, Sambo, etc will lead to spiritual contamination. :miffer:



That has to be one of the most ridiculous things I've read in a long time. IJF continues to try to destroy Judo. It's a shame.


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## Steve

Could you guys post a screen capture?  Redirects and cached sites are blocked for me.


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## Tony Dismukes

Steve said:


> Could you guys post a screen capture?  Redirects and cached sites are blocked for me.



IJF President Statement: ?The Migration of Judokas To Other Sports Will Spiritually Contaminate Judo? | Bjj Eastern Europe


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## Steve

Tony Dismukes said:


> IJF President Statement: ?The Migration of Judokas To Other Sports Will Spiritually Contaminate Judo? | Bjj Eastern Europe


Thanks... and wow.  My initial reaction is to the lack of acknowledgement of the money, time and effort on the part of the judoka.  They don't seem to like the renewed interest in Judo that MMA has inspired.  They don't seem to like the renewed interest in newaza that BJJ has inspired.  They don't seem to like the cross-pollenization between BJJ, Judo, Wrestling and MMA, in spite of the huge boon its been to Judo over the last 20 years.  I really don't get it.


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## Buka

"Wow" is right. I feel so bad for the competitors. I understand what a tough place they're in, if that organization is the only, or best, game in town, then naturally they're going to want to compete in their tournaments, so they must abide by all rules.

But reading that whole statement - what a complete crock. But I now understand why most Judo gis are white. Easy to convert to a pointed hood with eye slits.


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## Hanzou

Well, the head of the IJF just called MMA fighters "stupid".....

IJF General Secretary Jean Luc Rouge 8220 MMA Fighters are Stupid 8217 Bjj Eastern Europe


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## Buka

I've been in the arts a long time. I haven't heard anything that disappointing in a long while.

I'm sure it's a coincidence, but in all film and print media, ethnic barbs are taboo. Except for one - 47.0000° N, 2.0000° E., particularilly concerning their officials.

And the beat goes on....


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## Hanzou

Buka said:


> I've been in the arts a long time. I haven't heard anything that disappointing in a long while.
> 
> I'm sure it's a coincidence, but in all film and print media, ethnic barbs are taboo. Except for one - 47.0000° N, 2.0000° E., particularilly concerning their officials.
> 
> And the beat goes on....



Supposedly the IJF is creating some sort of cross-grappling sport that will include many of things banned in the Olympics.

I'll believe it when I see it.

What is interesting is how the IJF has completely missed the fact that MMA and Bjj has rekindled an interest in Judo worldwide.


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## ballen0351

Hanzou said:


> MMA and Bjj has rekindled an interest in Judo worldwide.


Stop with this nonsense.


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## Steve

Money, money, money.  I'm just glad it's not the IBJJF doing this, but guys, if you don't think Carlos Gracie jr. would do this, you're nuts.  It's about establishing a brand and marketing this brand as THE brand.  The UFC did it to all of the competing MMA promotions and now the UFC is the premier brand for MMA.  IBJJF did it for jiu jitsu.  Carlos Gracie Jr. is really trying to make Gracie Barra the de facto standard for BJJ training. 

My point is, I don't believe for a minute that any of these statements accurately reflect these guys' opinions regarding MMA and BJJ.  Rather, it's messaging for a marketing strategy that is intended to rekindle interest and retain elite level athletes.  It's a terrible strategy, IMO, but I believe that's all it is.


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## Tez3

From what I've read elsewhere the IJF is launching it's own promotion of professional fights, Gi with MMA type gloves by all accounts. So it makes sense that they would ban Judoka from competing in what will be a rival sport. They will need the fighters for themselves.
In the UK  Judo has always been one of the most popular martial arts, has had a huge following for decades, well over a century actually, we have one of the oldest Judo clubs in the world here. The emergence of MMA has had little impact on it. I know too that is has always been tremendously popular in Europe, France especially.


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## Steve

Tez3 said:


> From what I've read elsewhere the IJF is launching it's own promotion of professional fights, Gi with MMA type gloves by all accounts. So it makes sense that they would ban Judoka from competing in what will be a rival sport. They will need the fighters for themselves.
> In the UK  Judo has always been one of the most popular martial arts, has had a huge following for decades, well over a century actually, we have one of the oldest Judo clubs in the world here. The emergence of MMA has had little impact on it. I know too that is has always been tremendously popular in Europe, France especially.


Judo has always been popular here in Seattle, as well.  We are the home, in fact, of the very first Judo dojo in the continental USA.  Judo is also a sanctioned school sport in our public high schools. 

I'm not sure we can argue that BJJ has been good for judo.  I'd argue the opposite around here, that BJJ has poached a lot of potential students from Judo clubs. 

Regarding a rival promotion to UFC, good luck.  I give it less than five years from launch to fold.


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## ballen0351

Steve said:


> Regarding a rival promotion to UFC, good luck.  I give it less than five years from launch to fold.


Depends on how they format it.  If its just repackaged UFC I woudnt even give it 5 years.  If they come up with something new then they may have a chance.  I think alot of casual fans get tired of watching the ground game in the UFC they done see the skill involved.  So if they can Capitalize on big flashy throws and good stand up they may have a chance.


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## Steve

ballen0351 said:


> Depends on how they format it.  If its just repackaged UFC I woudnt even give it 5 years.  If they come up with something new then they may have a chance.  I think alot of casual fans get tired of watching the ground game in the UFC they done see the skill involved.  So if they can Capitalize on big flashy throws and good stand up they may have a chance.


 I don't think it matters how they do it.  It's doomed.  Chuck Norris had an interesting spin (no pun intended) on the fight game with his World Combat League.  Intended to be fast paced and aggressive, the rules penalized clinching, holding, stalling and passivity.  It was actually pretty fun to watch, but only lasted a few years before it folded.


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## Tez3

I think British Judo didn't get the message about Judo people just staying in Judo and MMA fighters being 'stupid' lol.
British Judo announces new sponsorship deal with Ultimate Fighting Championship British Judo Association


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## Hanzou

ballen0351 said:


> Stop with this nonsense.



Its not nonsense. Judo isn't very popular here in the states, and Bjj has reawakened an interest in Judo newaza.


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## Steve

Hanzou said:


> Its not nonsense. Judo isn't very popular here in the states, and Bjj has reawakened an interest in Judo newaza.


 I don't know, Hanzou.  It's very popular around here and has been for a long time.  I think that there is a perception that Judo isn't "popular" that stems erroneously from a lack of marketing.  In the USA, it is just typically run as non-profit. This means no marketing is done or needed, and there is little or no vested need to self-promote a dojo.  BJJ, conversely, is very much "for profit" which means that a BJJ school owner has a vested interest in self-promotion and marketing.


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## ballen0351

Hanzou said:


> Its not nonsense. Judo isn't very popular here in the states, and Bjj has reawakened an interest in Judo newaza.


Where?  Damn near every college has a Judo team, We have an Olympic Program, Its very popular world wide esp in Europe and Asia with massive national teams.  I can count more Judo schools in this area then BJJ.


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## ballen0351

Perhaps where you live its on the down slide but as Steve said its normally not advertised very well or at all.  Id bet if you started looking you would be surprised how many you would find.


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## Tez3

Judo is the most practised martial art in........Brazil. it's also one of the most popular sports.
15 Most Popular Sports In Brazil - The Brazil Business


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## K-man

Hanzou said:


> Well, the head of the IJF just called MMA fighters "stupid".....
> 
> IJF General Secretary Jean Luc Rouge 8220 MMA Fighters are Stupid 8217 Bjj Eastern Europe


Mmm! No. Close but not exactly what was said or what was meant ...
[\QUOTE]“These new combat sports (MMA) seem like they come out of a video game. *These guys are stupid enough to kill each other* in front of everyone in a cage and they are well paid, so they would accept. Sport is not war! We must be able to shake hands and go have a beer together in the end, “he said.[\QUOTE]There have been deaths in MMA just as there have been in many other sports such as boxing. The irony is that the same charge could be levelled at judo.
108 school judo class deaths but no charges only silence The Japan Times
So it is not necessarily that everyone competing in a martial art is stupid but it is a fact that people can be killed or permanently disabled. Even amateur bouts carry a high risk of injury.


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## Steve

I don't think Jean Luc Rouge meant actually killing each other.  I'm pretty sure, from the context, that "killing" was not intended literally.  I do think he meant stupid, though. 

What is very clear from the statement  is that Jean Luc Rouge has a strange, distorted impression of the culture within MMA.


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## K-man

Steve said:


> I don't think Jean Luc Rouge meant actually killing each other.  I'm pretty sure, from the context, that "killing" was not intended literally.  I do think he meant stupid, though.
> 
> What is very clear from the statement  is that Jean Luc Rouge has a strange, distorted impression of the culture within MMA.


When you take into account that he would have been speaking French and someone else has translated it into English I doubt we'll ever know what he meant.


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## Steve

K-man said:


> When you take into account that he would have been speaking French and someone else has translated it into English I doubt we'll ever know what he meant.


 LOL.  K-man, French isn't a dead language.  I asked a friend of mine who is fluent.


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## drop bear

Steve said:


> I don't know, Hanzou.  It's very popular around here and has been for a long time.  I think that there is a perception that Judo isn't "popular" that stems erroneously from a lack of marketing.  In the USA, it is just typically run as non-profit. This means no marketing is done or needed, and there is little or no vested need to self-promote a dojo.  BJJ, conversely, is very much "for profit" which means that a BJJ school owner has a vested interest in self-promotion and marketing.



ok there is the Olympics argument. But otherwise.

bjjs popularity due to its involvement with mma? judo gains popularity from bjj.

of course now judo is linked to mma.

popularity by the way would be the amount of people who come to see a judo nationals vs a mma fight. We get about just under a thousand to our local show.


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## Tez3

An extremely interesting article on the popularity of Judo. Judo International Voice of Japan by Gotaro OGAWA The Penetration of Judo in the World and Japan


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## Steve

drop bear said:


> ok there is the Olympics argument. But otherwise.
> 
> bjjs popularity due to its involvement with mma? judo gains popularity from bjj.
> 
> of course now judo is linked to mma.
> 
> popularity by the way would be the amount of people who come to see a judo nationals vs a mma fight. We get about just under a thousand to our local show.


Saying that Judo has benefited from the popularity of MMA and BJJ is not the same as saying that Judo is only popular BECAUSE of MMA and BJJ.

In the USA, there haven't been many high profile Judoka in the UFC.  I mean, there are people with strong grappling skills, but being marketed as Judoka.  Prior to Rhonda Rousey, I can recall Karo Parysian being touted as a "Judo for MMA" guy.  But that's about it.

That said, I'm just not sure that Judo is more popular as a result of MMA and BJJ. I think people are more aware of what Judo really entails as a result, but that's not necessarily getting them into the dojo. Judo has always been around and continues to plug right along. As a non-profit enterprise in the USA, it requires little marketing.  And butts in seats is a measure where money is to be made.  Butts in seats is as much about marketing and promotion as it is about the quality and interest in the sport.  In "for profit" businesses such as an MMA promotion, it will be very important to sell tickets.  In a non-profit organization, it's not really an accurate measure.


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## K-man

Steve said:


> LOL.  K-man, French isn't a dead language.  I asked a friend of mine who is fluent.


And ... ?


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## K-man

Perhaps someone with more French than me can answer ...


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## Steve

K-man said:


> And ... ?


While I am pretty sure you're being coy again and are not genuinely interested in clarification, I'll take you at your word and try to explain what i meant. 

You said:  





> Mmm! No. Close but not exactly what was said or what was meant ...


and then you went on to focus specifically on the term "killing each other."   It seemed so, at least, because that's the part you emphasized by bolding it in the text you quoted.   You seemed pretty confident that you knew what it meant in that post.  I disagree with your interpretation, and I remain pretty sure it was a figure of speech.  I don't believe that Rouge suggested literally that MMA athletes are trying to murder each other.

After I posted this, you completely changed your position of confidence that you knew what was said to the opposite: 





> I doubt we'll ever know what he meant.


.

I'm fine either way.  If you didn't mean what you said in your first post, great.  I understand.  Frankly, I think you were just trying to bust Hanzou's balls a little because you don't care for him, and that's just human nature.  But either way, we can know what he meant because French is not a dead language.  Don't lose hope.  We can know because there are a lot of people who understand it fluently, if not natively.  

I hope that clears things up.


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## K-man

Steve said:


> While I am pretty sure you're being coy again and are not genuinely interested in clarification, I'll take you at your word and try to explain what i meant.


Well thank you for that. You make an incomplete statement and anyone who doesn't follow your train of thought is 'coy'.  I wasn't being coy last time and I'm not being voyage this time. Get a life and stop being offensive.



Steve said:


> You said:  and then you went on to focus specifically on the term "killing each other."   It seemed so, at least, because that's the part you emphasized by bolding it in the text you quoted.   You seemed pretty confident that you knew what it meant in that post.  I disagree with your interpretation, and I remain pretty sure it was a figure of speech.  I don't believe that Rouge suggested literally that MMA athletes are trying to murder each other.


 You are at liberty to disagree. That doesn't make either of us right or wrong. The fact that you changed the emphasis from killing each other (maybe hyperbole) to murder is interesting.



Steve said:


> After I posted this, you completely changed your position of confidence that you knew what was said to the opposite: ..


Garbage. I haven't change my position at all. I don't speak French, the original interview was in French and translated into English. If you don't understand French idiom how do you know what was meant. 

What I said was ... "So it is not necessarily that everyone competing in a martial art is stupid but it is a fact that people can be killed or permanently disabled. Even amateur bouts carry a high risk of injury." 



Steve said:


> I'm fine either way.  If you didn't mean what you said in your first post, great.  I understand.  .


No, you don't understand and you seem to be going out of your way to misunderstand.



Steve said:


> Frankly, I think you were just trying to bust Hanzou's balls a little because you don't care for him, and that's just human nature.  But either way, we can know what he meant because French is not a dead language.  Don't lose hope.  We can know because there are a lot of people who understand it fluently, if not natively.
> 
> I hope that clears things up.


Offensive again. Get a life! This is nothing to do with *Hanzou*. He posted a reference to an interview with his own twist added. I responded. As to understanding. No you have no more understanding than me as you don't speak French or understand French idiom either, which is why I posted the French version to see if anyone out there could tell us exactly.


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## Steve

K-man said:


> Well thank you for that. You make an incomplete statement and anyone who doesn't follow your train of thought is 'coy'. I wasn't being coy last time and I'm not being voyage this time. Get a life and stop being offensive.


For what it's worth, _my opinion_ is you're not all wrong, but also not all right. Were I to say, "Smoking marijuana is stupid," I'm not commenting that "everyone" who smokes weed is unintelligent. I'm commenting on the behavior. In this case, with a clear interest in promoting the IJF and denouncing MMA, Rouge attempts to characterize the behavior as stupid. It's clear, I think, that he is suggesting MMA is unnecessarily risky while downplaying the risks of Judo (as you said). However, he's not suggesting that they literally kill each other for sport. That was hyperbole on his part.  And he's not suggesting that every person who trains or competes in MMA is stupid.  He's commenting on the behavior. 

And when I said you completely changed your opinion, I'm referring to your opinion about whether we can know what Rouge meant. That your opinion changed isn't any kind of deal at all. We all do this, from time to time. But, to deny it when it's so clear from one post to another just doesn't compute for me. I regret that this offends you, but I won't apologize for pointing it out.

You felt confident enough that you knew what Rouge REALLY meant to correct Hanzou. But when I pushed back, you said the opposite, that you doubt we could "*ever* really know what he meant." (emphasis mine).

My response to you is that we *can* actually know what he meant, because there are people who speak French. Short of actually piecing the four posts together, I can't see how this could be more clear.

I tried to connect the dots as best I could, K-man. If I was incomplete, asking a complete question would really help me answer you. You didn't, and so I inferred that you were being coy.  It may be cultural, but your one word post, "And...?" is indicative of someone who is being coy... at least where I live.  If that kind of communication is common and sincere in Australia, I get it.  Are you saying that when you posted that, you were sincerely asking for clarification?


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## K-man

Steve said:


> Are you saying that when you posted that, you were sincerely asking for clarification?


Actually yes.

And the dictionary definition of calling someone 'coy' is an insult. If I call someone ignorant I understand the term I am using. You are calling me coy after me pointing out that it's an insult and you continue to use the term. What does that say?


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## Steve

in my dictionary, coy means being evasive. Merriam Webster defines it as, "not telling or revealing all the information that could be revealed."  I explained the specific behavior you exhibited that led me to believe that you were being evasive and reluctant to engage in open discussion (i.e. coy).  That you take offense is, as I said, regrettable.  It wasn't my intention to offend you, but I do stand by the statement.

And if you were sincerely asking for clarification, I'm glad I attempted to provide just that.


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