# Is the Ubiquity of Soccer in Europe easily a Prime Reason TMAs didn't Take Europe By Storm the way it did with the rest of the world esp the Americas?



## SlamDunkerista (Mar 1, 2022)

Already I seen people repeat on this site and many more the ad nauseam argument that the Brits dismissed not just Savate but heavily leg-usage martial arts esp kicking based ones from the various Kung Fu styles of China to Capoeira and predecessors to BJJ from Brazil because because they saw kicking as ungentlemanly and that real men fight only with their fists..........

Discounting British wrestling which as someone pointed out has sweeps and trips with knee pins and locks as well as chokes both using the legs......... Another argument I see at Quora and other places online is that while they are now mostly dormant, a big reason why Eastern martial arts did not dominate Europe as it did during the Bruce Lee Craze of North America is that traditional local styles in Europe like Savate and Zipota and Italian Fencing still existed in towns and old neighborhoods across Europe (which Catch and Freestyle Wrestling are arguably British examples). Sure they are unknown to the majority of the populace esp Middle Class in the generic thriving Metropolis, but the simple fact in neighborhoods in Rome boxing styles with some of kicks similar to Savate in are taught in local gyms and fight clubs among some isolated ghettos that largely remain the same as before the unification of Italy (with the addition of modern appliances like electricity and plumbing) is often another theory why Europe did not have the mass martial arts fad that USA experienced in the 70s and still is suffering the effects from..............

As well as the dominance of Boxing in Europe (which another poster brings up) esp the British Isles.

But I have a theory that is often overlooked esp since so many martial artists don't tend to be into mainstream sports and are the intellectual white collar types........
The sport of Football (Soccer for you English speakers outside Europe).

I have a grandma born in Scotland and lived in London for her young adult life before immigrating to America. She grew up watching violence by local Footballer Hooligan. She still tells me stories and among them is that some hooligans she knew personally trained in boxing clubs and underground fight clubs when they weren't spending the rest of their freetime kicking footballs outdoor along with drinking at pubs and brawling across many places.

In plenty of fights she'd always notice hooligans wouldn't just box, they'd be doing toe kicks using their heavy worker's footwear , instep kicks with locked ankles similar to what she seen among karate practitioners in the 60s but almost entirely vertical, round circular kicks resembling ballet dancers and the effeminate dancing of the pansy Frenchies with their feet boxing (probably referring to Savateurs in London)-her words not mine-, hitting someone with knees, sliding leg tackles (I mean the move to steal the ball in soccer, not a MMA style sprawl and takedowns), and well a bunch of other Association Football moves she'd often used herself when playing Footy with her brother on the sidewalks of London.

Now a few Bartitsu and Savate websites mention about Soccer Hooligans and their use of kicks so it makes me wonder.......

Is Association Football easily one of the most essential reasons if not the prime reason why Europe didn't develop as big a fetish for Oriental styles esp Karate and Kung Fu the way Americans and Canadians as well as the rest of the world did after WWII's end?

I mean just go watch news about the recent riots in England after Italy's victory at Wembley. Plenty of Football fans (some who aren't even into Hooligan culture but just everyday normal law abiding citizens) throwing a lot of leg strikes despite never taking a single martial arts class (I doubt a lot of them ever even learned wrestling or even Boxing).

And if you watch old videos you see a lot of incidents not just in the UK but across Europe like a German fan knocking down a lady down the stairs Leonidas Well Scene Style in 300 and Russian gangs doing sweeps and locking legs after a game in France.

And nevermind that we are forgetting Football's universal mainstream popularity across the whole wide European continent which takes away people from being interested in not just Asian martial arts but actively hampers the continuing growth of other mainstream popular sports like Basketball and Rugby........

So is it fair to say the Association Code is among the prominent reasons why America took the Oriental martial arts craze far wider than Europe ever did and even today is an obstacle to MMA's growth in the Continent esp in the United Kingdom?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 1, 2022)

SlamDunkerista said:


> Already I seen people repeat on this site and many more the ad nauseam argument that the Brits dismissed not just Savate but heavily leg-usage martial arts esp kicking based ones from the various Kung Fu styles of China to Capoeira and predecessors to BJJ from Brazil because because they saw kicking as ungentlemanly and that real men fight only with their fists..........
> 
> Discounting British wrestling which as someone pointed out has sweeps and trips with knee pins and locks as well as chokes both using the legs......... Another argument I see at Quora and other places online is that while they are now mostly dormant, a big reason why Eastern martial arts did not dominate Europe as it did during the Bruce Lee Craze of North America is that traditional local styles in Europe like Savate and Zipota and Italian Fencing still existed in towns and old neighborhoods across Europe (which Catch and Freestyle Wrestling are arguably British examples). Sure they are unknown to the majority of the populace esp Middle Class in the generic thriving Metropolis, but the simple fact in neighborhoods in Rome boxing styles with some of kicks similar to Savate in are taught in local gyms and fight clubs among some isolated ghettos that largely remain the same as before the unification of Italy (with the addition of modern appliances like electricity and plumbing) is often another theory why Europe did not have the mass martial arts fad that USA experienced in the 70s and still is suffering the effects from..............
> 
> ...


Going to attempt to make this a bit more concise just so I can make sure I understand it. Please let me know if I've got it right.


1. People state online that martial arts involving kicking were not popular because it's considered "hooligan-ish" to use kicks. 
2. Your theory is that hooligans started using kicks because they learned football, causing it to be considered more low-brow, vs. boxing which would have had to actually be learned. 
3. You think this is true for both the past, and modern times.
4. You have an additional effect in your theory, where there is a zero-sum game in sports/recreation industries, where the more popular one sport is, the less likely another sport will be. So since football is so popular, it means other sports will be unable to reach the same level of popularity as it might in other countries.

Did I get that all right?


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## Damien (Mar 1, 2022)

I don't think this is a likely explanation. For one football hooliganism is not as widespread as you make it sound in the UK. Sure there are idiots out there, but its not like violence on the streets every week, and most people in the UK would not be aware of the specific acts happening in the streets.

Also I think you underestimate the popularity of TMA in the UK at least (can't talk for the rest of Europe). There are plenty of Karate, Judo, Jiu Jitsu, Kung Fu etc. clubs around. Sure not every village has one, but go to any large town and you will find at least a few. I've certainly seen more TMA clubs as a combined group than I have boxing.


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## Gyakuto (Mar 2, 2022)

Football hooliganism _was_ widespread in the 70s. It was rife and as a Star Trek-obsessive, science-nerd kid, I was terrified of it!

Also, I believe North America has many minority sports (😉) such as American football, baseball and basketball that could‘ve potentially interfered with the popularity of the martial arts and yet they didn’t particularly. 

I think our North American cousins are simply more open and accepting of ‘new things’ in general compared to Brits and this environment was a fertile ground for the martial arts to proliferate and grow. The British are, generally, reserved, sceptical  and ridicule the new before eventually accepting it and thus the fantastical claims of the early martial arts took much longer to bed-in to our society. I’d suggest the martial arts are well integrated into British society now, although at a very low-level.

One unexpected consequence of this wonderful child-like acceptance and proliferation in the US was the accelerated advent of the McDojo, but, like morbid obesity, Britain is catching up on that!


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## frank raud (Mar 2, 2022)

Long answer....no.


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## lklawson (Mar 2, 2022)

> Is the Ubiquity of Soccer in Europe easily a Prime Reason TMAs didn't Take Europe By Storm the way it did with the rest of the world esp the Americas?


No.


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## Tez3 (Mar 11, 2022)

As had been said already, no.


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## Steve (Mar 11, 2022)

Soccer is for kids who can’t swing a bat or catch a ball, but their parents want them to get some exercise.  If kids arecoordinated enough to use their hands, they would play pretty much any other sport.

I think the only martial activity a soccer player is equipped to do is shin kicking. 😀


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## Gyakuto (Mar 12, 2022)

British soccer players are famously keen on another physical activity known as ‘spit roasting’…but I have no idea of it’s nature 🤔


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## Tez3 (Mar 12, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> British soccer players are famously keen on another physical activity known as ‘spit roasting’…but I have no idea of it’s nature 🤔


Squaddies are fond of that too........


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## Steve (Mar 12, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> British soccer players are famously keen on another physical activity known as ‘spit roasting’…but I have no idea of it’s nature 🤔


😲🤐


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