# New to Wing Chun - Is This School Legit?



## ailCeejae (Apr 4, 2017)

I have my very first class in Wing Chun (or any martial art period) this evening and I'm pretty excited. But I'd like to know if anyone could tell me how legit this school seems..

I'd really like to know that I'm getting involved with a solid Sifu / School since I look at this as a long term investment and would not want to throw away a year or more before figuring out I started off in a bad place.

I live in Irving TX so this also happened to be the closest of all the schools I could find. All of the others are about 20 miles or more away from me and round trip 4 times per week that would cause me to go way over my lease on my car.

Below is the link to the school. The only thing that concerned me was when I emailed to ask the Sifu if their students spar and this was his response,

"_As for sparring it is not possible in class setting to spar with each student in a one hour session. Also we do not spar at all. We train to fight, this would mean that one or two attacker (or more) would be assigned to kill you or take you prisoner your job is to kill them with no wounds. This class is $20 a month extra and is restricted access . Which means unless you have good control and skill or until you do you would not be invited to this section . It is not based on rank or how long you are there it solely depends on your attitude and ability to control your emotions._

_Sorry Chris I have ten people asking me questions at same time, I hope that explanation makes sense to you, first things first is you have never seen our class and seen wing chun before you wouldn't know that our class is mostly close to sparring as possible at the level of individual. I have students in class that have trained 20 years and some that are on. First week."
_
This concerned me because one of my goals in learning Wing Chun is for self defense and basically everything I've read in my research before going into this suggests that if you ever want to be good at self defense in a real life scenario, you'd be far better off if your training involved sparring.


Rister International Martial Arts


----------



## BrendanF (Apr 4, 2017)

A couple of points I would make:

Your question regarding sparring is an old one, with a long history of debate and as many opinions as there are people interested.  Wing Chun as with most CMA often don't 'spar' in the traditional western sense.  If you want someone to convince you that 'not sparring' is ok, or vice versa - don't waste your time, just do what interests you.  If sparring is of critical importance to you, join a muay thai/boxing/mma gym.

Posting private correspondence in public is considered incredibly rude.  If the instructor sees this I'd be amazed if he were still willing to accept you as a student.

And lastly "would be assigned to kill you, your job is to kill them with no wounds" - run as fast as you can from anyone spouting such nonsense.  Or ask sincerely "how many people die in each training session?  How do you retain students if they are constantly killing each other?".  That melodramatic rubbish is Hollywood stuff.  Absolutely, there are traditional arts that 'do not spar' - but anyone thinking that their training is equating to "killing with no wounds" is batty and/or stupid.


----------



## ailCeejae (Apr 4, 2017)

BrendanF said:


> A couple of points I would make:
> 
> Your question regarding sparring is an old one, with a long history of debate and as many opinions as there are people interested.  Wing Chun as with most CMA often don't 'spar' in the traditional western sense.  If you want someone to convince you that 'not sparring' is ok, or vice versa - don't waste your time, just do what interests you.  If sparring is of critical importance to you, join a muay thai/boxing/mma gym.
> 
> ...



My apologies, it was not my intent to be rude towards him at all. I figured that the info he provided me was either mostly info already on their website or info that he would freely give anyone who asked, not confidential so I didn't really think much of it. Is there a way to edit my post? I can't find an edit option but if there is I can certainly take down his message to me.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts anyhow, did you by chance check out their website? He apparently trained under Francis Fong and Dan Inosanto


----------



## CB Jones (Apr 4, 2017)

ailCeejae said:


> We train to fight, this would mean that one or two attacker (or more) would be assigned to kill you or take you prisoner your job is to kill them with no wounds.



As always, should you or any of your Wing Chun Force be caught or killed, the Secretary will disavow any knowledge of your actions. This tape will self-destruct in five seconds. 

Good luck, ailCeejae


----------



## geezer (Apr 4, 2017)

ailCeejae said:


> My apologies, it was not my intent to be rude towards him at all. I figured that the info he provided me was either mostly info already on their website or info that he would freely give anyone who asked, not confidential so I didn't really think much of it. Is there a way to edit my post? I can't find an edit option but if there is I can certainly take down his message to me.
> 
> Thanks for sharing your thoughts anyhow, did you by chance check out their website? He apparently trained under Francis Fong and Dan Inosanto



I wouldn't worry too much about sharing that correspondence if it was offered as general information in response to an inquiry about their program. As you pointed out, it's all stuff already in the public domain. BTW, BrendanF is almost as new on this forum as you are, so he might not realize that most of us are pretty laid back here as long at your intentions are good.

Now regarding that school, first, I wouldn't worry too much about the lack of straight up sparring. A lot of TCMA schools are like that. I don't have time for frequent sparring in my classes either. I'm trying to rectify that. I'm actually more concerned that there is no info on how long the head instructor trained with any of the big names he posts, and I really did not like his little double-stick Kali demo. But hey, that's just my opinion. 

If you want another option to check out, the guy I train under, my kung fu brother Jeff Webb will be coming up from Austin to offer a seminar at his Dallas School next month.  Might be worth investigating. You can check out his website via the link in my signature below. Meanwhile, it couldn't hurt to try classes for a month or so at the _Rister _school. Let us know how your first class goes! And welcome to MartialTalk!


----------



## DanT (Apr 4, 2017)

BrendanF said:


> A couple of points I would make:
> 
> Your question regarding sparring is an old one, with a long history of debate and as many opinions as there are people interested.  Wing Chun as with most CMA often don't 'spar' in the traditional western sense.  If you want someone to convince you that 'not sparring' is ok, or vice versa - don't waste your time, just do what interests you.  If sparring is of critical importance to you, join a muay thai/boxing/mma gym.
> 
> ...


Every traditional style of kung fu that I learned has had sparring as a fundamental element. I don't know a single traditional style that doesn't implement sparring at some point. One thing that they may not use is gloves tho.


----------



## BrendanF (Apr 4, 2017)

ailCeejae said:


> My apologies, it was not my intent to be rude towards him at all. I figured that the info he provided me was either mostly info already on their website or info that he would freely give anyone who asked, not confidential so I didn't really think much of it. Is there a way to edit my post? I can't find an edit option but if there is I can certainly take down his message to me.
> 
> Thanks for sharing your thoughts anyhow, did you by chance check out their website? He apparently trained under Francis Fong and Dan Inosanto



No worries - it could be that he wouldn't mind at all - just saying I would is all.

I did happen to check out the website - as you say it seems to be Francis Fong WC/Inosanto JF/JKD.

I have mixed feelings with regards to all of the JKD background WC I've seen - from a WC point of view (to my mind) it seems 'contaminated' by the JKD.  By that I mean that I was taught that in conjunction with the concepts and principles applied with WC there is a body method or way of approaching those principles and concepts which provides the appropriate form.

Abandoning that body method (as I was taught) can from a WC viewpoint expose weaknesses or openings.  With that said what I saw when I youtubed (very briefly) 'rister wing chun' seemed fine.

I've always been very impressed with Dan Inosanto, and I've heard good things of Francis Fong.  If I were you (if you have an interest in Wing Chun) I would absolutely go check them out.  I personally would also be checking out the JF/JKD too..

Regarding the sparring issue - despite what DanT says above, the reality is many if not most traditional CMA did and do not 'spar' as I understand the word.  Drilling, even high intensity uncooperative drilling, is not sparring.  Inosanto's JKD as I understand it is a very well thought out curriculum which can provide some of the best technical development outside of combat sports.

Alternatively, if you think you are more interested in regularly sparring and ultimately fighting in order to develop a solid base, you could as I said attend a muay thai, boxing or mma gym.  Or both.


----------



## DanT (Apr 4, 2017)

BrendanF said:


> No worries - it could be that he wouldn't mind at all - just saying I would is all.
> 
> I did happen to check out the website - as you say it seems to be Francis Fong WC/Inosanto JF/JKD.
> 
> ...


While I understand many self acclaimed "traditional" schools may not spar, sparring with contact is, and always has been an essential part of most styles including Wing Chun. Every traditional style that I've studied has had sparring (with or without gear) as one of its elements. Its only in more modern times with the shifting emphasis to wushu that many so called "traditional schools" replaced sparring with additional taolu practice.


----------



## ailCeejae (Apr 4, 2017)

Rather than quote everyone who has responded to me thus far let me just thank everyone as a whole for providing feedback/opinions/thoughts on things I've asked or brought up. I just returned from my first night of Wing Chun ever and I'll hold out on writing some sort of review/critique on Jon Rister's school for now as I will be checking out 1 other school tomorrow (Wednesday) night.

Once I've seen both I'll have a better ability to compare/contrast between the two. I will say that I am VERY excited to dig deep into this art and start learning the forms along with all the principles behind them.

If anyone is curious, the other school I'll be checking out is Sifu Steve Cottrell's and I've provided a link below... their website isn't flashy by any means but I spoke to the man for about a half hour earlier this afternoon and he was very eager to share his knowledge along with answering all my questions about his classes and his background.

Main Page - Authentic Kung-Fu


----------



## BrendanF (Apr 5, 2017)

Best of luck with it aliCeejae - I think Wing Chun can be an incredible art; I hope you enjoy learning it.

DanT - do you think there was sparring (with or without gear) in Yip Man's classes?


----------



## DanT (Apr 5, 2017)

BrendanF said:


> Best of luck with it aliCeejae - I think Wing Chun can be an incredible art; I hope you enjoy learning it.
> 
> DanT - do you think there was sparring (with or without gear) in Yip Man's classes?


Yes, many first generation Yip Man students mentioned sparring with Yip Man without gear.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Apr 5, 2017)

ailCeejae said:


> did you by chance check out their website? He apparently trained under Francis Fong and Dan Inosanto


Thoughts...

It seems a lot of WC schools don't do much (or any sparring), preferring to focus on chi sao. I'm surprised to see an instructor who also does JKD dismiss the need for sparring, since sparring was built into the JKD ethos from the start. Personally, I'm a fan of sparring. We haven't been doing sparring in my WT classes since I started training that art 15 months ago, but I've been testing my WT in sparring against boxing, kickboxing, and even capoeira on my own time.

If you look carefully at the wording on the JKD page, it mentions JKD "as taught" by Dan Inosanto, JKD "as taught" by Larry Hartsell, Muay Thai "as taught" by Chai Sirisute. It never specifies that Mr. Rister has trained with or is certified by any of those individuals. It says they are members of the associations created by those three, but that means nothing. Anyone can pay a membership fee. Mr. Rister apparently has a JKD instructor who has certified him as a teacher and allows him to use a belt rank system, but we are never told who that instructor is. This is in contrast to the WC page where he makes it explicit that his WC sifu is Francis Fong. This isn't _necessarily_ a huge red flag, but it would make me curious.



ailCeejae said:


> We train to fight, this would mean that one or two attacker (or more) would be assigned to kill you or take you prisoner your job is to kill them with no wounds.


This is nonsense and would be a huge red flag for me. I might give him the benefit of the doubt and think he was expressing himself poorly through hyperbole. From the rest of the paragraph you quoted, it seems like he does have some sort of separate invite-only sparring class which cost extra - even if he doesn't call it sparring? The whole bit seems confusing and a bit contradictory. He did say that he was distracted by other people while writing, so it's possible he just explained things poorly.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Apr 5, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> you look carefully at the wording on the JKD page, it mentions JKD "as taught" by Dan Inosanto, JKD "as taught" by Larry Hartsell, Muay Thai "as taught" by Chai Sirisute. It never specifies that Mr. Rister has trained with or is certified by any of those individuals. It says they are members of the associations created by those three, but that means nothing. Anyone can pay a membership fee. Mr. Rister apparently has a JKD instructor who has certified him as a teacher and allows him to use a belt rank system, but we are never told who that instructor is. This is in contrast to the WC page where he makes it explicit that his WC sifu is Francis Fong. This isn't _necessarily_ a huge red flag, but it would make me curious.


Okay, I found the blog page and there he does state that he directly learned from Inosanto, Hartsell, and Sirisute. I should note, however, that all three instructors do (or did in Hartsell's case)  a lot of teaching via seminar. It's not clear whether Mr. Rister was a regular student for years at the Inosanto Academy, an occasional seminar attendee, or something in-between*. It's also not clear who awarded his instructor certification or who he considers to be his current primary JKD teacher. If he _did_ learn primarily though seminars, that might explain the lack of emphasis on sparring, since seminars usually don't include sparring sessions.

*(Technically, I could say that I learned from Dan Inosanto and Chai Sirisute, since I've attended  2 seminars with the former and 6-8 with the latter. I'm even certified as an apprentice instructor under Chai in his association. I would still feel fraudulent listing either one as my teacher.

On the other hand, if I had attended dozens of seminars with one of them and developed a personal connection and was receiving focused advice and correction from the instructor during the seminars, then that could properly be considered a teacher-student relationship. Perhaps that is Mr. Rister's situation. It's just not spelled out very clearly.)


----------



## Danny T (Apr 5, 2017)

Jon Rister is an instructor certified by Guro Inosanto. He has trained under Sifu Francis Fong and has hosted him from time to time for seminars at his school. He may have been awarded apprentice instructor under Sifu Fong several years ago but has not been in Fong's instructor list for the past several years. I know he has attended seminars with Ajarn Chai Sirisute but not aware of Chai certifying him as an instructor. I know nothing of his training with Sifu Hartsell.
He states he is a 'member' of:
*Wing Chun USA* with Fong. It was the WC Association USA which is Fong's old association that has been defunct for 5 years now. He is not listed as an instructor in the Francis Fong Instructor Affiliation. To become an Apprentice Instructor one has to test directly under Sifu Fong and maintain a least 20 hours of instruction by him per year. If not you are not listed as an instructor under him. One can become an apprentice instructor and not have completed the system but can only instruct and award beginner level material recognized by Sifu Fong.
*Thai Boxing Association USA* which has now become the World Thai Boxing Association which doesn't necessarily recognize those from the TBA. A person could be a TBA member simply by purchasing a $25.00 membership but that doesn't mean they were an instructor. A person could be certified as an Apprentice Instructor by having passed student level II under a certified TBA instructor and then passing an Apprentice test under an Ajarn in the TBA. To become an Associate Instructor you were to have 20 hours of training directly under Ajarn Chai a year for 3 years and attend the Thai Camp for testing.


----------



## Cephalopod (Apr 5, 2017)

Hi Ceejae, welcome to the board.

One of the difficulties when considering sparring is that there are many differing opinions on how it should be conducted and how it is used to advance your skill. Same holds true for Chisao.

For one perspective, I'll share with you my personal experience.
I trained for nearly a decade in another CMA where sparring with and without gear was trained intensively once or twice a week. Looking back I realize that this sparring, as it was conducted, helped to reinforce some bad habits of mine. There would be a lot of testing the water with tentative kicks and jabs and then occasional frenzied clashes of wild strikes from an uprooted base regardless of the hits I was taking in return (perhaps I'm being a little harsh on myself but this was a while back and that's the way it seemed). Now obviously others have had better experiences learning from sparring and indeed some in my old class seemed to 'get it' and develop into great martial artists, but it didn't work for me. I would always lose ground to stronger, more aggressive opponents.

Presently, I've been training WC for over a decade. My sifu's emphasis (Jiu Wan lineage) has always been LOTS of chisao and live bridging drills. Now of course the chisao is anything that my partner and I decide it is. Sometimes it's soft and focused on developing a particular idea, sometimes it's shoving, braking, punching and bridging and might look to a neophyte like an all out brawl. There are those that would call the latter sparring, all I know is that it doesn't include the game of playing tag from a safe distance. Again, I not suggesting that all sparring is like that which I experienced in the past, I'm simply saying that a school is not ordained as being the 'Real Deal' just because they offer sparring.

I can't and won't speak for how anyone else develops their fighting skills. All I can say with certainty is that if past me tried to 'spar' with present me, he would get launched though the drywall.
(Actually, no, I wouldn't do that. Past me could use a little slack)

For what it's worth here are a couple of things that I would look for in a school:
1) Are you introduced fairly early to _live_ (non-choreographed, non-cooperative) training?
2) Does your sifu encourage his more advanced students to train with others from outside of his school?

Anyway, Best of luck!


----------



## wingerjim (Apr 5, 2017)

BrendanF said:


> A couple of points I would make:
> 
> Your question regarding sparring is an old one, with a long history of debate and as many opinions as there are people interested.  Wing Chun as with most CMA often don't 'spar' in the traditional western sense.  If you want someone to convince you that 'not sparring' is ok, or vice versa - don't waste your time, just do what interests you.  If sparring is of critical importance to you, join a muay thai/boxing/mma gym.
> 
> ...


I only wish I could hit the agree button more than once....well said!


----------



## wingerjim (Apr 5, 2017)

ailCeejae said:


> My apologies, it was not my intent to be rude towards him at all. I figured that the info he provided me was either mostly info already on their website or info that he would freely give anyone who asked, not confidential so I didn't really think much of it. Is there a way to edit my post? I can't find an edit option but if there is I can certainly take down his message to me.
> 
> Thanks for sharing your thoughts anyhow, did you by chance check out their website? He apparently trained under Francis Fong and Dan Inosanto


Did you look both of them up? On day 1 my sifu walked me around his school and showed me a recenet picture of him with his sifu and some older ones with his sifu and his sifu's sifus and pictures of his sifu with his two sifu's, both Leung Sheung students and a number of pictures of Leung Sheung with those sifus and finally several pictures of Leung Sheung with Yip Man.....there you go, documented evidence my sifu is of the Leung Sheung liniage of Yip Man's Wing Chun....it does not get much better than that.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Apr 5, 2017)

Cephalopod said:


> Looking back I realize that this sparring, *as it was conducted*, helped to reinforce some bad habits of mine. There would be a lot of testing the water with tentative kicks and jabs and then occasional frenzied clashes of wild strikes from an uprooted base regardless of the hits I was taking in return


I've highlighted what I consider to be the important factor. I'm a big advocate for sparring, but plenty of schools do a bad job of carrying it out. When the people involved are taking turns playing ineffectual tippy-tappy tag from long range with occasional awkward clashes in the middle, then it's not especially productive. (It would be particularly unproductive for learning WC.)

Fortunately, that's not the only way to do sparring. A good instructor should be able to guide his/her students to spar with correct distancing, good body mechanics, proper base, and so on.

BTW - it's been my experience that people with significant experience in hard-contact sparring or fighting do a much better job of doing light-contact sparring correctly. They aren't so prone to throwing out an off-balance "strike" with poor body mechanics from out of range and saying "gotcha!"


----------



## ShortBridge (Apr 5, 2017)

It seems to me that what you have there is a JKD school. "Legit" is in the eye of the beholder, but their legitimacy should be evaluated as a JKD school, not as a Wing Chun school.

I guess another way of answering would be: As a Wing Chun sifu, this does not appear to me to be a legitimate Wing Chun school, nor does it appear that they claim to be. I can not opine on their legitimacy as a Jeet Kune Do school. They are not the same thing, though.

None of that has to do with the sparring question, I'll leave that to others. The part of his response that I relate to however is "...First things first you have never even seen our class..."

A "legit" school will not let you design your own ciricula and progression. You appear to be questioning his method, admitting that you have zero experience, but "based on everything you have read on the internet". 

One of the best things to be gained from martial arts training is the ability to be a good student. Make up your own mind about this school and this teacher, but whatever you do, you're going to have to approach it differently to get the result you want.


----------



## BrendanF (Apr 5, 2017)

DanT said:


> Yes, many first generation Yip Man students mentioned sparring with Yip Man without gear.



Ok; we can agree to disagree.  If you are referring to the accounts I'm thinking of, we must just view the definition of 'sparring' differently - no worries.  I would describe those as tests performed within far stricter confines than sparring.  And knowing how those things go in traditional CMA culture, it would be surprising were any of the students actually looking to punk the master.  The reality is, contrary to your assertion earlier - sparring was always the exception rather than the rule in traditional CMA gwoon.  With the advent of the internet and the shrinking of the global marketplace, the obvious value of sparring, and the skill it produces has become undeniable and more traditional artists are sparring these days, which I think is great.


----------



## DanT (Apr 5, 2017)

BrendanF said:


> Ok; we can agree to disagree.  If you are referring to the accounts I'm thinking of, we must just view the definition of 'sparring' differently - no worries.  I would describe those as tests performed within far stricter confines than sparring.  And knowing how those things go in traditional CMA culture, it would be surprising were any of the students actually looking to punk the master.  The reality is, contrary to your assertion earlier - sparring was always the exception rather than the rule in traditional CMA gwoon.  With the advent of the internet and the shrinking of the global marketplace, the obvious value of sparring, and the skill it produces has become undeniable and more traditional artists are sparring these days, which I think is great.


Actually, the sparring that I'm referring to is full contact. Again, I dont mean to discount your personal experience, but I've been to many many traditional kwoons, and all of my sifu's and sigungs have always mentioned sparring as being an essential element to their training. The reality is that they and I train "kuoshu", not gymnastic "wushu" that's being trained mostly today. Sparring has always been an essential part of kung fu training, and clubs who don't spar don't teach kung fu properly.


----------



## BrendanF (Apr 5, 2017)

As I said, these days it is a far more common practice.

The evidence that it was the exception rather than the rule traditionally is overwhelming.  The infamous 1928 contest, the 1952 Chan v Wu debacle.. the list goes on.


----------



## DanT (Apr 5, 2017)

BrendanF said:


> As I said, these days it is a far more common practice.
> 
> The evidence that it was the exception rather than the rule traditionally is overwhelming.  The infamous 1928 contest, the 1952 Chan v Wu debacle.. the list goes on.


I think the issue with those events was lack of experience sparring other styles, rather than the issue being not sparring all together. Sparring in the class setting has always been an important part of traditional training.


----------



## BrendanF (Apr 6, 2017)

No worries - doesn't seem like we'll convince each other.  I'd like to think that sparring was a common component of traditional training, it just doesn't match with all I've learned of the history (particularly of the CMA)


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Apr 6, 2017)

ailCeejae said:


> Rather than quote everyone who has responded to me thus far let me just thank everyone as a whole for providing feedback/opinions/thoughts on things I've asked or brought up. I just returned from my first night of Wing Chun ever and I'll hold out on writing some sort of review/critique on Jon Rister's school for now as I will be checking out 1 other school tomorrow (Wednesday) night.
> 
> Once I've seen both I'll have a better ability to compare/contrast between the two. I will say that I am VERY excited to dig deep into this art and start learning the forms along with all the principles behind them.
> 
> ...


OP - let us know how things went with your visits to the two schools.


----------



## PiedmontChun (Apr 6, 2017)

Sparring is only a piece of the overall picture, since it doesn't teach you to fight; it only gives a platform to test skills developed outside of sparring. But it is important for any serious martial art whose aim or purpose includes self-defense I would think. If you believe your pak sau can open the line of attack against a strong jab, or your bong sau to deflect a strong mid level punch.... then you have to actually train with some pressure to definitively know that, am I right?

Sparring without a plan or thought given to what you are looking to test can lead to bad habits like dancing around the floor like sloppy boxers sizing each other up. A real fight would never be like that. But a sifu who says "we don't spar at all" and gives the excuse that the art is too deadly to spar makes my BS meter go off. He could be teaching legit WC principles, but if you don't pressure test it.... then you can't say you are training for self-defense / self-preservation.


----------



## ailCeejae (Apr 6, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> OP - let us know how things went with your visits to the two schools.



Sure thing!

I'm actually facing a tough decision now to be honest.. and its not regarding which school to attend.

I don't want it to seem like I'm talking bad about any specific school but obviously I would like one more than the other.

The first one - Jon Rister's School:

 I was able to participate in this class free of charge. It turns out that they do not have separate classes for different levels of competency (i.e. beginner, intermediate, advanced, etc) so everyone was lumped into this class.

The class began with every student facing the mirror and the instructor in front. He went through the entire SLT form (at once, from start to finish) and everyone was to copy. This being my first time I did my best to follow but definitely got lost a few times.

After doing this we were split into pairs to do a drill where someone punches at your face and you stop the punch by making contact with them first and then grabbing their arm and moving it over your shoulder as you turn around, giving you leverage for an arm break.

We did a couple drills similar to this, each time I would end up with a different partner. Eventually he came around to each group and gave us a plastic knife to practice a drill where we parry an oncoming knife attack and either get them to drop the knife or we take it from them after disabling them.

Afterwards he stayed and talked with me for a bit and I will say that he was a nice guy, he also offered for me to return to participate in another class free of charge.

I would also like to say that this was not the sort of structure I had anticipated for a Wing Chun class after all the reading that I had done. I thought I'd at least start with correcting my form/posture and the beginnings of SLT (in parts) rather than going through the whole thing at once without any form or stance correction and then jumping into knife fight scenarios. I also found it a bit odd that all of the more senior students where doing the exact same things as me, someone who was on their very first day.  


The Second Class: Sifu Steve Cottrell @ Authentic Kung Fu

Honestly I'm not even sure where to start. I was practically in awe from the moment I got there.

When I showed up there were already about 15 students who were there half an hour early. One of the senior students who has been practicing with the Sifu for decades greeted me and asked me a couple of questions before the Sifu entered the room and came straight toward me.

I introduced myself as someone who spoke to him a day prior on the phone. He began explaining to me the structure of his classes and what I would be seeing for the next two hours. (He recommended I watch both the beginner and intermediate classes rather than participate).

He explained that their classes start with the first hour being the beginner class, the second hour being the intermediate, and the third being the advanced class. The second and third hour students all show up to the first hour to assist with the class and ensure that everyone is getting individual instruction. The third hour students do the same for the second hour. But he explained that the doors are locked for the third hour as it is a time for him to individually touch hands with all of the students just as his Sifu's did for him.. noting that his senior students are capable of leading the earlier classes but that once they get to an advanced level it comes time for him to be much more involved for them to continue to grow.

He studied directly from Leung Ting and Koo Sang (he has pictures as well). He explained that his goal in studying from both of them was to learn how Ip Man thought/taught towards the later stages of his life and also in his earlier years.

Anyhow, back to the class. The class began with him in front facing the class and going through about a 10 minute period of a wide variety of stretching. After that the class was broken up into groups that was further divided into pairs. His senior students led these groups while he invited me to get up and walk around with him as he explained what was taking place in each group/pair.

He explained how one section was for people who were in their first month or two and what they were working on. He told me that I would be there when I start out and would need to perfect what it is that they were doing before I could move on to the next group.

After a while they would move on to something else but the structure was the same. The Sifu was with me most of the class and would answer all my questions and then break from me to go to individuals who requested him or whenever he saw something that he felt he needed to provide instruction on.

I saw the same structure in the second (intermediate class) but this was where I started to see some more advanced techniques, Chi Sao, kicking with the back leg while pursuing someone so that the kick also serves as your movement forward, etc.

I asked him about when I learn the first form (SLT) and he explained that it is learned in pieces, I never once saw them go through the whole form itself, rather what they were doing was applying the different parts of the form in their drill it seemed. I'm assuming at some point in time he shows everyone the forms in their entirety.

I could go on and on about the different tidbits of info he gave me about Wing Chun itself, Wing Chun compared to other arts, his vast experiences studying Wing Chun and other arts (he teaches Mantis as well), his travels to China and this society of older Chinese martial artists who accepted him as the only foreigner into their group after decades of training, etc, etc. It was truly a great experience. He even told me at one point towards the end that he was evaluating me as much as I was evaluating him and his class. I'll stop here with my description of the class because I've probably written more than most are willing to read anyhow.

I think its safe to say which class/Sifu I'd prefer to learn under. The problem is... the drive is 25 miles in rush hour traffic to go from where I live which is near Dallas, to downtown Fort Worth where he teaches. I'm not from here, the roads are confusing as hell even with a gps... if you're in the wrong lane you may easily miss an exit and add 10-15 minutes to your drive. Even if you get the right exit you find that it splits into several off ramps and you have 2 seconds flat to decide which one to take or you added more time to your travel again.

I'm cool with all of this though, I'd leave 2 hours early (it took me 50 min to arrive last night) if I had to. The main problem is that my car is a lease... 4 years 12K miles/year. 50 miles (there and back combined) 4 times/week adds up to over 10K/year alone. Luckily I live only 4 miles from work so I don't have to drive far for that but still, I'd definitely go over. This worries me. I'm thinking about joining and only going 3 days/week and just practicing a hell of a lot more on my own at home to make up for it?


----------



## CB Jones (Apr 6, 2017)

Feel your pain.  Dallas/Fort Worth area is one of  if not my least favorite places to drive in.

But....some of the rockiest paths lead to the most beautiful gardens.

Maybe someone else in the school also is making the same drive and you could car pool.



Or pull the fuse that powers your dashboard and odometer.  Lol.  (Just kidding)


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 6, 2017)

ailCeejae said:


> Sure thing!
> 
> I'm actually facing a tough decision now to be honest.. and its not regarding which school to attend.
> 
> ...


3 days a week is plenty for a beginner-you don't want to burn yourself out by going too often, especially with waiting 2 hours (combined) in traffic each time. You may be up for it now, since it's new and your excited, but it's not something that you'll want to do, or be able to do, 4 times a week 6 months down the line. Going 2-3 times a week should be more than enough.

This is assuming that you're not planning on being a professional fighter, which I'm guessing is not your goal. Remember, you have decades to learn martial arts, which makes it a marathon rather than a sprint.


----------



## ailCeejae (Apr 7, 2017)

kempodisciple said:


> 3 days a week is plenty for a beginner-you don't want to burn yourself out by going too often, especially with waiting 2 hours (combined) in traffic each time. You may be up for it now, since it's new and your excited, but it's not something that you'll want to do, or be able to do, 4 times a week 6 months down the line. Going 2-3 times a week should be more than enough.
> 
> This is assuming that you're not planning on being a professional fighter, which I'm guessing is not your goal. Remember, you have decades to learn martial arts, which makes it a marathon rather than a sprint.



Yeah I suppose you're right, I could go 3 times a week which would also allow me more time to also continue weight training and working on my cardio as well. I guess its just a tad bit of a waste of money since I'd pay the same rate going 3 times a week as I would if I attended all 4 classes.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 7, 2017)

ailCeejae said:


> Yeah I suppose you're right, I could go 3 times a week which would also allow me more time to also continue weight training and working on my cardio as well. I guess its just a tad bit of a waste of money since I'd pay the same rate going 3 times a week as I would if I attended all 4 classes.


Having had times where I've gone either 6 times a week or 1 time a week for the same rate, I view it as I'm paying for the option to attend whenever I can, rather than for each individual class. It helps me come to terms with it.


----------



## geezer (Apr 7, 2017)

I have a student --a great older guy, who runs his own small contracting business. He always pays the same rate. Sometimes he shows up twice a month ...when work is heavy. Other times he's there every night and Saturdays too ...when work slows down.

Hey, we all do what we gotta in this world.


----------



## Flying Crane (Apr 7, 2017)

If you truly believe that one school offers better training, then the aggravations of travel are worth tolerating.  I've had times where I have traveled an hour and a half in each direction, to get the training that mattered to me.

Financially, you need to decide if it is doable.  If you won't make the rent payment because of it, well it isn't worth being homeless.  But maybe you can figure out a way to make it work.


----------



## Danny T (Apr 7, 2017)

ailCeejae said:


> I guess its just a tad bit of a waste of money since I'd pay the same rate going 3 times a week as I would if I attended all 4 classes.


Huh?
I guess I should be stressed out about the money I waste on my gym membership that allows me to weight train everyday but I only go 3 times a week.


----------



## Callen (Apr 8, 2017)

ailCeejae said:


> I have my very first class in Wing Chun (or any martial art period) this evening and I'm pretty excited.


Congratulations and welcome to the forum. The journey of Wing Chun is full of self-discovery and reward.

If you are searching for Wing Chun near Irving, you're certainly limited. Most of your options are about 25 miles away. If you want to train in the system you'll have to travel a bit.


----------



## Paul_D (Apr 8, 2017)

ailCeejae said:


> everything I've read in my research before going into this suggests that if you ever want to be good at self defense in a real life scenario, you'd be far better off if your training involved sparring.


What have you been reading?


----------



## ailCeejae (Apr 10, 2017)

Callen said:


> Congratulations and welcome to the forum. The journey of Wing Chun is full of self-discovery and reward.
> 
> If you are searching for Wing Chun near Irving, you're certainly limited. Most of your options are about 25 miles away. If you want to train in the system you'll have to travel a bit.



Thank you! Also, I'd like to just let everyone know who was interested that I ended up signing up for the school that's 25 miles away and had my first official class earlier this evening. I'm very excited to dig into Wing Chun


----------



## RobBnTX (Apr 15, 2017)

ailCeejae, I realize that you have already signed up at the school in Ft. Worth but I wanted to bring to your attention a school in Plano, Plano Wing Chun and Escrima for Self-Defense under Sifu Graham Weedon.  Sifu Weedon is a very innovative instructor and is certified in the EBMAS organization.  They teach Wing Tzun and Escrima.  Although that is somewhat of a distance, not exactly around the corner, but barring traffic tie ups such as wrecks and construction that is an easy drive from Irving to Plano if you take the George Bush Turnpike.


----------



## geezer (Apr 15, 2017)

I noticed that Sifu Emin and GM Rene Latosa are scheduled to give a joint EBMAS Wing Tzun/Latosa Escrima Concepts seminar in Dallas in mid-July. I would really want to attend except that I have a conflict on those dates. Anybody who has not worked with Emin and Rene should have that experience IMO.


----------



## RobBnTX (Apr 17, 2017)

geezeer,  The Plano school is also hosting Emin Boztepe this coming weekend 04/21-04/22, here is the informtion:
He will be at West Plano CrossFit for a hands-on seminar that is open to the public. Sessions will be Friday 7-10pm and Saturday 12-3pm. You can go to their website to get phone and email information if anyone may be interested.  Of course the big one is in July.
Plano Wing Chun and Escrima for Self-Defense


----------



## geezer (Apr 18, 2017)

Thanks for the info.! Unfortunately I don't have the bucks to just grab a last minute, full-fare ticket from Phoenix. I'm hoping they schedule something closer in the future, like in Las Vegas again.


----------



## wingchun100 (Apr 28, 2017)

Many wing chun schools that I have visited do not engage in sparring; they are more heavy on the chi sao. The Sifu at my old school intended to introduce sparring once he had a good amount of people who were (in his opinion) "good enough" to warrant it.


----------



## ShortBridge (Apr 28, 2017)

The whole "sparring" discussion is tough to get through. Undeniably "experience" is good. When people have skills, or think they have skills, making those skills work under less controlled circumstances will make them much better, no doubt. It is necessary to do so if you want to develop beyond a certain point. Whether sparring does that effectively is a different discussion and depends greatly on how you spar and who you're sparring with, so it's difficult to even have the discussion in general terms.

Keeping it simple, in a classic martial art "sparring day one", doesn't translate well, because you haven't learned the skills with which to apply under those less controlled circumstances. Much of what I need to do with a new student is help them stop doing things before I can get them to start doing the things that they come to me to learn to do. Telling them "go punch and kick that guy and try to give worse than you get" is not going to make that a bigger problem for them and me until they're pretty well established in our system (or whatever system they are learning).

The problem that I personally have with the notion of "sparring" is that what most people mean is "kickboxing". If you're learning Wing Chun, then kickboxing isn't a good exercise to integrate with your learning, because Wing Chun isn't kickboxing. If you don't know Wing Chun ....or Pak Mai or whatever... and you feel compelled to take up the argument that you know all you need to know about a system based on the y/n answer of "do you spar and when does that start?" then neither this thread nor any other will change your mind and we should both just decide to be okay with that. The world is a big beautiful place.

Now, to take a swipe at my Wing Chun brothers and sisters; Chi Sao is not sparring and not a substitute for it. It's an amazing drill and a really fun thing that we do. A lot of good things get developed and refined through Chi Sao and I love it. But, it's a drill. It is neither sparring nor fighting nor an indication of how you would do at either. If you answer a question about sparring or "would it work in a real fight?" with "chi sao", you're discrediting yourself and the rest of us in the process. It's as irrelivant as if my doctor asked me if I smoked cigarettes and I answered "I can bench 230#". It might be good information to him, but it's not an answer to his question and now he probably doesn't trust that I'm being straight with him.


----------



## wingchun100 (Apr 28, 2017)

ailCeejae said:


> Yeah I suppose you're right, I could go 3 times a week which would also allow me more time to also continue weight training and working on my cardio as well. I guess its just a tad bit of a waste of money since I'd pay the same rate going 3 times a week as I would if I attended all 4 classes.


 

This is standard operating procedure for just about any martial arts school. Some of them do have "drop in" rates (AKA, pay whenever you can show up), but I imagine that is a nightmare to track in terms of accounting and bookkeeping.

Also, not for nothing, but that usually comes to a higher per-class fee. What if you went 4 times per month and paid $80, but the monthly tuition to go whenever you were free was $100...only $20 more for the freedom to go any night you choose?


----------



## Danny T (Jul 9, 2019)

Danny T said:


> Jon Rister is an instructor certified by Guro Inosanto. He has trained under Sifu Francis Fong and has hosted him from time to time for seminars at his school. He may have been awarded apprentice instructor under Sifu Fong several years ago but has not been in Fong's instructor list for the past several years. I know he has attended seminars with Ajarn Chai Sirisute but not aware of Chai certifying him as an instructor. I know nothing of his training with Sifu Hartsell.
> He states he is a 'member' of:
> *Wing Chun USA* with Fong. It was the WC Association USA which is Fong's old association that has been defunct for 5 years now. He is not listed as an instructor in the Francis Fong Instructor Affiliation. To become an Apprentice Instructor one has to test directly under Sifu Fong and maintain a least 20 hours of instruction by him per year. If not you are not listed as an instructor under him. One can become an apprentice instructor and not have completed the system but can only instruct and award beginner level material recognized by Sifu Fong.
> *Thai Boxing Association USA* which has now become the World Thai Boxing Association which doesn't necessarily recognize those from the TBA. A person could be a TBA member simply by purchasing a $25.00 membership but that doesn't mean they were an instructor. A person could be certified as an Apprentice Instructor by having passed student level II under a certified TBA instructor and then passing an Apprentice test under an Ajarn in the TBA. To become an Associate Instructor you were to have 20 hours of training directly under Ajarn Chai a year for 3 years and attend the Thai Camp for testing.


This is an old post...it's been 2 years.

It has come to my attention today this posting by me 2 years ago was taken as negative and degrading toward Jon Rister and Rister International.

I'd like to say I know Jon and have known him for several years and it wasn't my intent to be negative or degrading by any means.
It was to post information accurate 'to me' about Guro Jon and his affiliation with Guro Dan I, Sifu Francis Fong, Ajarn Chai, Sifu Larry Hartsell when the OPoster asked about him and his organization.

I know he is listed under Guro Dan I.
He was an Apprentice Instructor in the Wing Chun Association USA (now defunct) under Sifu Francis Fong.
He was not listed as an Affiliate under the Francis Fong Instructor Affiliate program at the time I posted. And in order to listed as an instructor one has to have continued training at least 20 hours per year directly under Sifu Fong and be a member of the FFIA.
I know nothing about his training under Sifu Larry Hartsell. (so I can't say anything one way or another about such)
As to being a member to the TBA. The TBA is now the WTBA and doesn't necessarily recognize members or instructors from the TBA. One has to be a member of the WTBA and have 'continued' to train under Ajarn Chai to be listed.
Info on becoming a TBA Instructor one must test under a certified instructor and then test under an TBA Ajarn. Now one must test under a WTBA Ajarn and to become an Associate you have to have 20 hours of training directly under Ajarn Chai a year for at least 3 years and attend a Thai Camp where you will be tested.

Again nothing was intended to insult or degrade him and I apologize for it having been taken that way by some. Anyone who has been certified to any degree by Guro Dan Inosanto, Sifu Francis Fong, or Ajarn Chai is good to the degree they were certified.


----------



## geezer (Jul 9, 2019)

Danny T said:


> This is an old post...it's been 2 years. It has come to my attention today this posting by me 2 years ago was taken as negative and degrading...



In the MA community, and especially the WC community, it's hard to say anything of substance without somebody getting offended. That's why a lot of people just don't post at all. Too bad. IMO Dan, you do about as well as anybody can. Please, keep it up!


----------



## yak sao (Jul 9, 2019)

I'm sure everything's fine. If there's one thing I think we can all agree on is that the Wing Chun community is a reasonable and forgiving group.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jul 9, 2019)

geezer said:


> In the MA community, and especially the WC community, it's hard to say anything of substance without somebody getting offended. That's why a lot of people just don't post at all. Too bad. IMO Dan, you do about as well as anybody can. Please, keep it up!



Well that offensive 



yak sao said:


> I'm sure everything's fine. If there's one thing I think we can all agree on is that the Wing Chun community is a reasonable and forgiving group.



Taijiquan/XIngyiquan guys with a touch of Wing Chun aren't......We're offended by everything..and that was offensive and we never EVER forgive an offense


----------



## skyeisonfire (Jul 10, 2019)

Wing Chun is definitely useful even if you don't spar, you can still learn some important elements from it that can be useful.  I'm glad I took it.  Definitely find a good teacher though.  Even if you take Wing Chun, that doesn't mean you have to stop there.  You can add other things in like kick boxing or other disciplines to compliment and work your majic.


----------



## Martial D (Jul 10, 2019)

skyeisonfire said:


> Wing Chun is definitely useful even if you don't spar, you can still learn some important elements from it that can be useful.  I'm glad I took it.  Definitely find a good teacher though.  Even if you take Wing Chun, that doesn't mean you have to stop there.  You can add other things in like kick boxing or other disciplines to compliment and work your majic.


Yup, that's my story. Trained WC hard for years  (although we sparred quite a lot) before branching out into other things. You are not your art, you are your attributes and skills. Arts are tools to refine these skills and attributes.

Your 'style' is you.

With that said, there is still quite a lot of WC in what I do. WC has gotten a bad rap mostly because most of the schools and teachers train it like nancies.


----------



## skyeisonfire (Jul 10, 2019)

Martial D said:


> Yup, that's my story. Trained WC hard for years  (although we sparred quite a lot) before branching out into other things. You are not your art, you are your attributes and skills. Arts are tools to refine these skills and attributes.
> 
> Your 'style' is you.
> 
> With that said, there is still quite a lot of WC in what I do. WC has gotten a bad rap mostly because most of the schools and teachers train it like nancies.



I quite agree, especially fru-foo schools.  My teacher beat me up for a good reason lol.  Jk.  Just bruises.


----------



## Martial D (Jul 10, 2019)

wingchun100 said:


> Many wing chun schools that I have visited do not engage in sparring; they are more heavy on the chi sao. The Sifu at my old school intended to introduce sparring once he had a good amount of people who were (in his opinion) "good enough" to warrant it.


I find that to be a weird attitude. Sparring is what makes you good at sparring. I like to introduce it within the first month. For some, day 1.


----------



## Danny T (Jul 10, 2019)

Martial D said:


> I find that to be a weird attitude. Sparring is what makes you good at sparring. I like to introduce it within the first month. For some, day 1.


Yeah we spar a lot and vs boxers, nak muays, savateurs, mma fighters and more.
It's not one being better but getting experience vs a lot of different type of practitioners.
I think after the acquisition of a new idea, concept or technique and the time you get to spar it out under controlled live conditions is of high importance.
I like to keep this gap rather short in that you learn a new technique, drill it slowly and easily, add a bit of resistance, increase the speed a bit as a part of the drilling. Add in a couple of follow ups, then add in a couple of contingencies, counters to them and follow ups to each.Then spar it at the level the individual is capable.

Like the BJJ model: learn a new technique and by the end of the training session you are required to roll with it.


----------

