# LGBT in Taekwondo



## Master Dan (May 9, 2012)

As instructors, mastors and owners of Dojangs have you had to deal with this and how have you handled it. I know one thing I have had to do related to any unknown new male students due to the fact i have children in the classes I require background check before even starting class period and after that they cannot have serious current DV or felony assault issues.

I also get alot due to our location mental issues especially  Schizophrenia which can be totally disruptive inapropriate or even dangerous to have around students you need to be able to spot these and other disorders fast some you can council work with and help others you just can't have it.

I have to remove forceably at least two or more a year generally strong verbal commands sometimes physical with police involved.

As regards the LGBT I am committed to helping anyone I can if it does not impact the students or put anyone at risk. There have been times I have worried about opinion of parents or ultra consevative church organizations but in the majority the parents of my students have been supportive but it has been dificult at times change a he to a she in class out of respect due to the fact the government now considers that person a she and they conduct themselves properly and frankly one of the better people in this community? 

is this the 900 pound Gorila in the room or does anyone else but me deal with this??


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## miguksaram (May 9, 2012)

Master Dan said:


> As regards the LGBT I am committed to helping anyone I can if it does not impact the students or put anyone at risk. There have been times I have worried about opinion of parents or ultra consevative church organizations but in the majority the parents of my students have been supportive but it has been dificult at times change a he to a she in class out of respect due to the fact the government now considers that person a she and they conduct themselves properly and frankly one of the better people in this community?



How does LGBT put anyone at risk?  Teach who you want to teach, and if other students do not like the fact another student is LGBT then have them come in to a different class time or just show them the door.  Most LGBT do not just announce out loud their sexual preference any more than a straight person would.  Lastly, LGBT money is just as green and spends just as well as straight money.


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## Carol (May 9, 2012)

It is the _conduct_ that matters, not the LGBT classification.


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## Blindside (May 9, 2012)

I also don't understand the "risk" associated with the LGBT community, is it something to do with potential awkwardness in a shared locker room?


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## Master Dan (May 9, 2012)

miguksaram said:


> How does LGBT put anyone at risk?  Teach who you want to teach, and if other students do not like the fact another student is LGBT then have them come in to a different class time or just show them the door.  Most LGBT do not just announce out loud their sexual preference any more than a straight person would.  Lastly, LGBT money is just as green and spends just as well as straight money.
> [/FONT][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT]


WEll first I teach for free for three decades and i have always taught tkd as a family when we get a new student we adopt them into the family a strict code of conduct such as no making comments or doing anything negative to your family and the strong or experienced are to help the weak or inexperienced. Any new adult can until proven otherwise be a risk for children so that takes time but the attitude is not from me or my students but outside public however we have been for the most part treated well and my oath has always been to stand up to defend those who need it. thanks for the feed back


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## miguksaram (May 9, 2012)

Master Dan said:


> WEll first I teach for free for three decades and i have always taught tkd as a family when we get a new student we adopt them into the family a strict code of conduct such as no making comments or doing anything negative to your family and the strong or experienced are to help the weak or inexperienced.


Ok...that is commendable.


> Any new adult can until proven otherwise be a risk for children so that takes time but the attitude is not from me or my students but outside public however we have been for the most part treated well and my oath has always been to stand up to defend those who need it. thanks for the feed back


I guess I am missing something in translation here.  Are you saying that your local community view LGBT to be at a higher threat towards children than straight people?  While I understand ANY new adult could be a possible threat, why is there a feeling that LGBT is more of a threat?  I guess I do not understand the purpose of your thread here.


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## Master Dan (May 9, 2012)

Carol said:


> It is the _conduct_ that matters, not the LGBT classification.



Yes and the issue of akward is kids are smart to them it looks like a man but we say she but we knew them as a man longer and strugle at times to say she not wanting to offend.


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## MSTCNC (May 9, 2012)

A person's sexual orientation has absolutely ZERO to do with their ability to train in the martial arts...

Moreover, and in my opinion, a true Martial Artist would not base their descision to train an individual based on the persons sexual orientation...

The ONLY exception here, in my opinion, would be an HIV+ person. From a Body Substance Isolation (BSI) stand-point... this is a training risk for every involved...

Other than that... you can't contract gay from training with someone. But, if you aren't careful... you just might get a contageouse case of compassion...

Just my .02 on a topic VERY much in the forefront of things here in my part of the World...

Repsectfully,


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## miguksaram (May 9, 2012)

Master Dan said:


> Yes and the issue of akward is kids are smart to them it looks like a man but we say she but we knew them as a man longer and strugle at times to say she not wanting to offend.


Ahhhh...ok...so the issue is how to explain to the kids.  Unless they knew the person prior to surgery, I would not worry about it.  If they knew them pre-op, then it is something for their parents to explain, if they so deem it necessary.  Treat the person in question just like a regular student and address her correctly.  For the most part we do not really have adults and kids changing at the same time so this has never been an issue in that aspect.


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## miguksaram (May 9, 2012)

MSTCNC said:


> Other than that... you can't contract gay from training with someone.


Wait!  You mean that Gay-away spray I was sold is bogus?  Damn it!


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## Master Dan (May 9, 2012)

Master Dan said:


> Yes and the issue of akward is kids are smart to them it looks like a man but we say she but we knew them as a man longer and strugle at times to say she not wanting to offend.


 Also LGBT is a new term for an old guy like me but in this state there has been alot of hostility even city ordances trying to be passed to give special rights and groupds organzing against ect. This thread for me was to ask has this been an issue for other Dojang owners how have they dealt with it our school system and city employ openly LGB people but I come under a great deal of scrutiny in anything i do loved by some hated by others so in doing like a school demonstration bringing in Bethany formly Bob does present some looking over my shoulder and waiting for the protest to come?


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## MSTCNC (May 9, 2012)

OK... now I'm confused... is this individual Trans-Gender? Acceptance of things unusual to you is a hard, yet valuable lesson to impart into young people. Honesty, if these other kids have cable, and ride a school bus...  they're probably better suited to dealing with it than the adults...


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## Master Dan (May 9, 2012)

its not the kids or my students but outside entities and in paying dojangs if there was a conservative bent from the parents I could see the master bending to presure


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## dancingalone (May 9, 2012)

Hmm, hopefully I remain on-topic with this...  Suppose you have an established student who is uncomfortable with practicing with a LGBT and has asked to never be paired with them during class.  He/she is otherwise a model club member.  Would this a reasonable accomodation to make for him/her?  If it is, would you tell the LGBT student what is going on?


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## RobinTKD (May 9, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> Hmm, hopefully I remain on-topic with this...  Suppose you have an established student who is uncomfortable with practicing with a LGBT and has asked to never be paired with them during class.  He/she is otherwise a model club member.  Would this a reasonable accomodation to make for him/her?  If it is, would you tell the LGBT student what is going on?



Oooooh good question, I'll take a stab.

For me a BIG part of training, is training outside your comfort zones, physically and mentally. There are people at the Dojang who you may not like but still have to train with every day/week whatever, and you have to learn to tolerate-if not like-them. I would say to the student that it is good mental training for them, to work outside their comfort zones and maybe have their eyes opened that little bit further by doing so, i don't think I would ever accommodate a student for that.


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## Master Dan (May 9, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> Hmm, hopefully I remain on-topic with this...  Suppose you have an established student who is uncomfortable with practicing with a LGBT and has asked to never be paired with them during class.  He/she is otherwise a model club member.  Would this a reasonable accomodation to make for him/her?  If it is, would you tell the LGBT student what is going on?


I have not had to make that decision because none of my students would act like that and i would probably talk more with the student with the problem this was a trans gender but not anymore she is female officially now so must be treated as such


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## Master Dan (May 9, 2012)

Thinking farther down the line when some day a senior GM visits or I get with a group of them in Korea how will they react to my advancing this person?


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## Blindside (May 9, 2012)

Master Dan said:


> Thinking farther down the line when some day a senior GM visits or I get with a group of them in Korea how will they react to my advancing this person?



Quite frankly, screw 'em if they don't like it.  Who is the student's instructor?  If the instructor thinks the student is worthy of the rank, that is what should matter.  Does that GM have a critique of that student's TKD, fine, that is within their purview.


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## lifespantkd (May 9, 2012)

The question for every dojang owner when addressing diversity of any kind is ultimately: "Do I wish to perpetuate oppression in my dojang?" Life is much harder for people who are members of a social minority for any reason because they cope with one or more inescapable institutionalized "isms" every single day of their lives. The negative impact is actually measurable. For example, being lesbian, bi-sexual, gay, or transgendered (LBGT) increases the risk of being bullied in childhood and adulthood. Childhood gender nonconformity even increases the risk of being abused by your parents in childhood and experiencing postraumatic stress as a youth. Here's a recent popular press article describing new research on that: http://news.yahoo.com/transgender-children-high-risk-child-abuse-181700625.html. The abstract of the actual study can be read here: http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2012/02/15/peds.2011-1804.abstract?rss=1. Students who are in the dominant social group (e.g., white, male, heterosexual) can study a martial art just about anywhere under the instruction of a teacher who shares with them at least some degree of life experiences, cultural values, and so on. Students who are not in the dominant social group may feel like a fish out of water in any martial art school. Not perpetuating oppression in the dojang requires us to learn to see our invisible privilege, learn to become comfortable with being uncomfortable, educate ourselves about the diversity around us and to which we contribute, and gather the courage to become a collaborative ally and share power with those whose lives are very different from ours.

Taekwondo, to me and to many, is a means of physical, mental, and spiritual growth. Growth inherently involves moving outside your comfort zone. Having a transgendered student in the dojang is an invitation for dojang owners and instructors to serve as role models for saying "yes" to further personal growth. Having an anti-discrimination policy that includes sexual orientation and gender identity and which is clearly communicated to students and their parents (e.g., registration materials, student handbook, poster in the dojang) is a great way to lead from the top down.

Cynthia


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## Tez3 (May 9, 2012)

We have transgender people serving in the Forces here as well as gays, not a problem. No problem with martial arts either, not really much of a problem in the 'outside world', people seem not to be bothered much here, take it in their stride really. I suppose some are upset but really I think most people think there's enough to worry about with worrying about others sexuality or gender even.


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## Master Dan (May 9, 2012)

lifespantkd said:


> The question for every dojang owner when addressing diversity of any kind is ultimately: "Do I wish to perpetuate oppression in my dojang?" Life is much harder for people who are members of a social minority for any reason because they cope with one or more inescapable institutionalized "isms" every single day of their lives. The negative impact is actually measurable. For example, being lesbian, bi-sexual, gay, or transgendered (LBGT) increases the risk of being bullied in childhood and adulthood. Childhood gender nonconformity even increases the risk of being abused by your parents in childhood and experiencing postraumatic stress as a youth. Here's a recent popular press article describing new research on that: http://news.yahoo.com/transgender-children-high-risk-child-abuse-181700625.html. The abstract of the actual study can be read here: http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2012/02/15/peds.2011-1804.abstract?rss=1. Students who are in the dominant social group (e.g., white, male, heterosexual) can study a martial art just about anywhere under the instruction of a teacher who shares with them at least some degree of life experiences, cultural values, and so on. Students who are not in the dominant social group may feel like a fish out of water in any martial art school. Not perpetuating oppression in the dojang requires us to learn to see our invisible privilege, learn to become comfortable with being uncomfortable, educate ourselves about the diversity around us and to which we contribute, and gather the courage to become a collaborative ally and share power with those whose lives are very different from ours.
> 
> Taekwondo, to me and to many, is a means of physical, mental, and spiritual growth. Growth inherently involves moving outside your comfort zone. Having a transgendered student in the dojang is an invitation for dojang owners and instructors to serve as role models for saying "yes" to further personal growth. Having an anti-discrimination policy that includes sexual orientation and gender identity and which is clearly communicated to students and their parents (e.g., registration materials, student handbook, poster in the dojang) is a great way to lead from the top down.
> 
> Cynthia



Thank you this is good enough for me to print and save as a formal printed policy and submit with any future issues. All my life I stand for the oppresed and it is a thrill to make anyone stronger healthier on any level. thanks for your time and cosideration


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## Sukerkin (May 9, 2012)

I'm not sure I have quite grasped the core of this thread fully.  Perhaps it's a cultural difference between our countries, meaning that trans-gender (or Sex Change as such things used to be called over here) are much more reviled in the States than the UK?  For why on earth, in the context of training in the martial arts, should it matter if a chap used to be a lass or vice versa?

We have one lass in my place of work who used to be a lad not so many years ago and we have another who is just starting along that medical journey.  To be honest, my only 'uneasy' reaction to the fellow currently taking the first steps is a little social awkwardness as to how to address and act towards him - for, at present, he is still a he who dresses like and tries to behave like a woman, so calling by his assumed female name and treating him as a she is a deliberate exercise rather than an instinctive one.  Can't be easy for him/her either, especially as it is required that this state of 'living' as a woman without any alterations has to be borne for a year, I suppose to show that they are serious and not merely acting on a whim.

In the context of the dojo tho', if someone is so uncomfortable with training with a trans-gender person that it affects their training then the best thing to do, as has been suggested earlier, is to not force them to partner together.  For whilst, to me, the dojo is a place to learn more about yourself and extend your mental as well as your physical 'horizons', it is not a place to try to enforce social engineering.  Then again, what would we say if we were talking about someone with a racial aversion?  In principle it's the same kind of 'problem' for the school to try to manage.


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## Master Dan (May 9, 2012)

Thanks to all there have been good and costructive input from most and yes the Dojang should be a place of safety and to build people up not tear them down unless they have earned or need that to keep them from harming others. gratifying when you can start a thread that gets reviewed and good posts back However we are at 184 views and 21 posts which not counting me would put it at 10 ratio wonder how many viewing are afraid to post or have negative feelings?


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## StudentCarl (May 9, 2012)

My LGBT students are adolescents trying to grow up in a world more hostile than anyone but minorities who have experienced it can understand. We have much to offer them if we will walk the talk.  I don't think it sinks in until you let yourself have an LGBT friend and learn both about them and how they are treated. FWIW, if you have transgendered students (we have at my high school), I recommend addressing and treating them as the gender they present. As far as facilities go, I suggest making special arrangements to let them change by themselves rather than in a mens or womens locker area.

Going back to the OP, I think the foremost issue is safety, and sexual predators have no place in a dojang. The world is full of straight predators too.

I think "straight but not narrow" is a good phrase for a healthy attitude. Intolerance is imbalance and has no place in someone who trains to master.


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## Tenchi (May 10, 2012)

One should not exclude people due to their sexual preferences. Why would they represent danger to children anymore than anyone else potencially could is beyind my reasoning. It is the responsibility of the martial artist, especially one that practices an art such as Taekwondo and that has moral principles associated with it, to be able to perceive what is important and what is not, and if confronted with an unconfortable situation, he or she should be able to act in the most fair and reasonable way.

Why woulnd't an LGBT person be able to show the characteristics and qualities which define us as Taekwondo martial artists? In the end, that is what matters and that is what all of your students should be looking for. That's what a family needs.


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## andyjeffries (May 10, 2012)

Master Dan said:


> However we are at 184 views and 21 posts which not counting me would put it at 10 ratio wonder how many viewing are afraid to post or have negative feelings?



My reason for not posting up until now was simply that I was stunned that this was a consideration.  Even more surprised that in some peoples mind they still equate LGBT with higher risk of sex offences/children's safety.  It left me speechless...

To be upfront, when I was much younger I would admit I was mildly homophobic.  Not acting on it, but feeling uncomfortable around gay men.  Not something I'm proud of, but it was what it was. Since then I've met enough of them (and this type of thing has become more common and open) that it doesn't bother me at all and it's the person that matters.

Then again after reading about Amendment 1, I'm not that surprised that it is in some parts of America (but this thread started before I'd heard about that).

So that's why I didn't post up until now...  Not that I was afraid to post or had negative feelings.


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## miguksaram (May 10, 2012)

Master Dan said:


> Thinking farther down the line when some day a senior GM visits or I get with a group of them in Korea how will they react to my advancing this person?


Why do you need to announce to them that the person is TG?  Do they know this person personally?  Most likely they will not care because it is your student.  A few years ago, 2002 or 2003, there was a big name Korean entertainer named Harisu who was a TG.  She was on all the Korean variety shows.  I would not even stress about this.


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## miguksaram (May 10, 2012)

To answer what I think your main question is that in most dojangs that I know of, there has never been an issue with members of the LGBT community.  Again, it is stapled on their forehead what their sexual preference is, so for the most part you really don't even know.  Those who do know, really don't care.  But then again that is just my neck of the woods.  You may come from a more conservative small town community which is not as open minded.


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## miguksaram (May 10, 2012)

Master Dan said:


> Thanks to all there have been good and costructive input from most and yes the Dojang should be a place of safety and to build people up not tear them down unless they have earned or need that to keep them from harming others. gratifying when you can start a thread that gets reviewed and good posts back However we are at 184 views and 21 posts which not counting me would put it at 10 ratio wonder how many viewing are afraid to post or have negative feelings?


Or possibly just really don't care either way.  You also have to take in account people like me who will come back from time to time to read the updated posts.  So that gets counted as well.   Also, some people will view the thread, gather thoughts later and comeback to post.  Some are just reading to read.  Don't stress it.


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## Daniel Sullivan (May 10, 2012)

Master Dan said:


> As instructors, mastors and owners of Dojangs have you had to deal with this and how have you handled it. I know one thing I have had to do related to any unknown new male students due to the fact i have children in the classes I require background check before even starting class period and after that they cannot have serious current DV or felony assault issues.
> 
> I also get alot due to our location mental issues especially  Schizophrenia which can be totally disruptive inapropriate or even dangerous to have around students you need to be able to spot these and other disorders fast some you can council work with and help others you just can't have it.
> 
> ...


Not a 900 pound gorilla in the room; I have one openly gay student, something that I only know because we talk about non-kendo topics outside of class.  That and we're friends on Facebook and the relationship section kind of gives it away.

Never been a problem for myself or the rest of the class.  Gay and bi people are no different than anyone else; everyone should be treated with respect and nobody should be made to feel uncomfortable because their lifestyle is different from that of the mainstream.


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## Master Dan (May 10, 2012)

miguksaram said:


> Why do you need to announce to them that the person is TG?  Do they know this person personally?  Most likely they will not care because it is your student.  A few years ago, 2002 or 2003, there was a big name Korean entertainer named Harisu who was a TG.  She was on all the Korean variety shows.  I would not even stress about this.



Again the issue of concern for the children is not one of danger anymore than any adult its the perception that some parents give our hostile climate get there panties in a bunch which I deal with. Why or I would have a seond thought about in the future dealing with my seniors who at some time will see my friend and student is that though complete surgery has been done she still looks like a man in many ways and it constantly brings up the question to me who has to answer and for me I refuse to say anthing more than She and let God and everybody else sort it out for themselves?


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## Daniel Sullivan (May 10, 2012)

Master Dan said:


> Yes and the issue of akward is kids are smart to them it looks like a man but we say she but we knew them as a man longer and strugle at times to say she not wanting to offend.


Regarding transgender people, again, only the conduct matters.  If the person is in the process of changing their gender, it will be noticeable to the people around them.  I don't think that in my own studio that anyone would have a problem with it, though we might have to correct ourselves occasionally when referring to the person as 'he' when they've become 'she.'  No different than when a lady changes her last name after being married.  Initially, people may accidentally address her as Miss Smith until they have adapted to calling her Mrs. Jones.  Eventually, it becomes habit.

As far as the obvious visual changes and the accompanying change in which locker room is used, handle them with discretion and without drawing excessive attention to it.  Yes, there are some people who may be uncomfortable with a transgender person, particularly if they know them prior to the process.  Honestly, that discomfort is their own problem, and if they're afraid to train with a transgender person, then there are always other places for them to go.  

As the school owner, your only concern is to teach and to maintain an atmosphere of dignity within the school.  Treat all students equally.

As for safety of children, the tendency toward pedophilia is unrelated to LGBT; pedophiles are pedophiles, and there not to my knowledge any correlation between sexual orientation and pedophilia.


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## miguksaram (May 10, 2012)

Master Dan said:


> Again the issue of concern for the children is not one of danger anymore than any adult its the perception that some parents give our hostile climate get there panties in a bunch which I deal with. Why or I would have a seond thought about in the future dealing with my seniors who at some time will see my friend and student is that though complete surgery has been done she still looks like a man in many ways and it constantly brings up the question to me who has to answer and for me I refuse to say anthing more than She and let God and everybody else sort it out for themselves?


Again, from my understanding of a Korean culture view point, I really doubt they will say anything to you directly.  They may talk amongst themselves, but for the most part they would not try to put you on the spot about it.


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## shesulsa (May 10, 2012)

I recently started training a young person of 12 years who was born female but is (and, essentially, lives as) a male. 

You know, I'm so over the notion that sexual identity, gender identity, preferences, etcetera somehow makes people different, it honestly surprises me when I encounter others who are not. I'm quite the bore to come out to - a gay male friend of mine recently told me so. But isn't this kind of the way it's supposed to be? I don't care in as much as it is none of my business, nor should it be anyone else's. I'll continue to do whatever I can to forward the civil rights issue of equality for LGBQTA matters, but I don't spill my coffee because I encounter an individual who chooses to be transparent about this element in their lives.

I expect nothing less from the people who come to my dojang. While I will do what I reasonably can to listen and understand those who are uncomfortable, my choice for my business is to be open and welcoming and I have no problem dismissing people who have no tolerance if I must.  I might make a concession for someone who struggles with acceptance by offering them a different training time or date, but I will continue to foster acceptance and brotherhood. It really depends on the situation and the individuals involved.

I've only had a student quit my tutelage once for intolerance of another student - a talented, capable girl resented the extra few minutes I spent with my autistic student and didn't want to be in the same class as him.  Her parents *seemed* to be displeased with her decision but would not allow me to talk with her regarding the matter.  The withdrawal was accepted and I have removed them from my contact list.

I think the bigger issue is with the comfort level with other students - but if you set an example and make yourself available to every student and treat them all with empathy (thank you Brian King), you are taking steps in the right direction.


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## WC_lun (May 10, 2012)

Truth is there are many of the LGBT commumity out there.  Your kids are going to run into them, no matter what they do.  If the kids see you treat members of the LGBT community with respect, perhaps they will que off that behaviour.  Furthermore, when they train with LGBT people, they will start to view them not as 'those people" but rather just people.  If you ostrasize this person or treat her differently, your students will pick up on this as well and learn lessons from that.

One of my favorite experiences in a school was teaching a somewhat effeminate gay man kung fu.  Some others in the school made snide comments and insinuated he would not be able to carry his weight in the ring because he was "girly."  When it came time to spar I took the first match with the gay gentleman and gave him as much as he could handle and perhaps a bit more.  Some students were a bit shocked that I had done that with an obvious femenine gay guy.  I told them I pushed him as I push anyone thier first time so he knew he would be okay the next time he entered the ring.  The next time he enetered the ring he sparred one of his most vocal detractor and one of our more macho though talented fighters.  It was no contest.  The gay gentleman wiped the ring with him.  To his credit the other fellow learned a lesson that day and a few months later they were very good friends.  People are people, despite differences we share more in common with those we even see as different.


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## d1jinx (May 10, 2012)

this whole topic really doesnt just apply to taekwondo and should have been posted in a general or debate forum.

Having said that, I read through the comments and still find it hard to understand what the issue is? Are you asking for a way to discriminate against them?  are you concerned with having them interact with other students?  Do you not want them around children?  

Maybe I am missing the OP's question or point, but the way I see it is they are no different than the white, black , green, purple, poka dot people that train.  everyone is here to train, learn and have fun.  Social interactions are a by product of the fun.  Diversity isnt just color.


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## SahBumNimRush (May 10, 2012)

I could be mistaken, but I think the OP's concern is how to best handle discrimination from outside of the students.  i.e. seniors from outside of the immediate dojang, general public at demo's, parents, etc.. . 

Which I think many have posted great things about, it's something I have not personally dealt with _yet.  _However, this thread has made me think more on the subject (but it probably should've been posted outside of the TKD forum).


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## d1jinx (May 10, 2012)

I will admit, I had no idea what LGBT was or ment.  after reading a few responses, i figured it out.


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## Master Dan (May 10, 2012)

SahBumNimRush said:


> I could be mistaken, but I think the OP's concern is how to best handle discrimination from outside of the students.  i.e. seniors from outside of the immediate dojang, general public at demo's, parents, etc.. .
> 
> Which I think many have posted great things about, it's something I have not personally dealt with _yet.  _However, this thread has made me think more on the subject (but it probably should've been posted outside of the TKD forum).



Thank you exactly and there have been some great posts even one I will print to use in the future for people that may gives us grief and as a policy yes it does go to all arts but I wanted specific input from Dojangs and related to the senior Korean perspective that I deal with


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## shesulsa (May 10, 2012)

Master Dan said:


> Thank you exactly and there have been some great posts even one I will print to use in the future for people that may gives us grief and as a policy yes it does go to all arts but I wanted specific input from Dojangs and related to the senior Korean perspective that I deal with



So you're more concerned about how senior ranking members of Korean nationality will respond to LGBT students in your school?


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## Master Dan (May 10, 2012)

shesulsa said:


> So you're more concerned about how senior ranking members of Korean nationality will respond to LGBT students in your school?



50% yes and 50% outside forces in the community but with in my students and DoJang no. Frankly the issue of LGB has never been an issue here with in the DoJang but the T is new and a rarity for us here in our community except for one long term person who has caused several divorces including the loss of our National Gaurd post Comandant over the years and a new one from the Philipines that makes 3 total and half the community treats them as celebrities and the other half wants to burn them at the stake.


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## shesulsa (May 11, 2012)

I can't speak to how you may need to work it out with high ranking Koreans, but with everyone else I recommend you ... come out! Have a meeting with adults in your school and parents and tell them your dojang celebrates diversity of all kinds, that this may result in some people on the floor of differing persuasions, lifestyles or perhaps in transition and that you train people who want and need martial arts and self-defense. Acknowledge that this may make some uncomfortable, that you are available to discuss these matters privately if need be.  As to community members who wonder about the matter, let them ask the question. I would be happy if they ask questions because that means there is hope for enlightened thinking. People who will not make room for people in transition won't anyway and I would say don't worry about it.

And if you suffer some vandalism because of this, I'd go to the press immediately.

You know, we do much to bring Korean culture into our dojangs ... perhaps senior Korean masters could appreciate that we also preserve our own progressive culture as well. I don't know. I hope someone else who may know more about this particular facet of the problem will speak up.


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## miguksaram (May 11, 2012)

Master Dan said:


> 50% yes and 50% outside forces in the community but with in my students and DoJang no. Frankly the issue of LGB has never been an issue here with in the DoJang but the T is new and a rarity for us here in our community except for one long term person who has caused several divorces including the loss of our National Gaurd post Comandant over the years and a new one from the Philipines that makes 3 total and half the community treats them as celebrities and the other half wants to burn them at the stake.


Then your community is no different than any other community in the world.   You will have people who dislike them and you will have people who either do not care either way or like them.  The bottom line is this.  You are not responsible for their life choice or the consequences, good or bad, that comes with the choice they make.  As you have mention, you teach for free, so the outside community who are against them really cannot effect you financially.  

The only time you would be "responsible" for them is when they are in your school and you are teaching them.  That, I would assume, is a safe haven.  I have already mentioned my thoughts about the Korean GM's.  I understand that you may feel some anxiety over this, but overall I feel you are causing much more stress for yourself than needed.  Just keep doing business as usual.


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## Earl Weiss (May 11, 2012)

miguksaram said:


> To answer what I think your main question is that in most dojangs that I know of, there has never been an issue with members of the LGBT community. Again, it is stapled on their forehead what their sexual preference is, so for the most part you really don't even know..



I think you meant "It is NOT stapled..."

While my attitude may not be PC I think that while we should perhaps address tolerance and acceptance of differences in general terms, the topic of Sexual preferences / lifestyle does not need to be addressed nor should it in the TKD school.  Now, this may need to be somewhat flexible when it comes to locker room issues, and quite frankly I am not sure how or if various schools have tha ability to address it properly.  How many sets of locker rooms would you need to accomodate everyone's privacy accordingly?  What if you are one of the many schools that is in another facility like a school, healthclub or community center that doesn't have such facilities?


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## miguksaram (May 11, 2012)

Earl Weiss said:


> I think you meant "It is NOT stapled..."


Yes...that is what I meant. ha.ha.ha..


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## Master Dan (May 11, 2012)

shesulsa said:


> I can't speak to how you may need to work it out with high ranking Koreans, but with everyone else I recommend you ... come out! Have a meeting with adults in your school and parents and tell them your dojang celebrates diversity of all kinds, that this may result in some people on the floor of differing persuasions, lifestyles or perhaps in transition and that you train people who want and need martial arts and self-defense. Acknowledge that this may make some uncomfortable, that you are available to discuss these matters privately if need be.  As to community members who wonder about the matter, let them ask the question. I would be happy if they ask questions because that means there is hope for enlightened thinking. People who will not make room for people in transition won't anyway and I would say don't worry about it.
> 
> And if you suffer some vandalism because of this, I'd go to the press immediately.
> 
> You know, we do much to bring Korean culture into our dojangs ... perhaps senior Korean masters could appreciate that we also preserve our own progressive culture as well. I don't know. I hope someone else who may know more about this particular facet of the problem will speak up.



I appreciate your input well stated I guess to be honest we do well in the Dojang and support that and among the senior adult students we have discussed in quiet private concerns but I would say I have avoided public statements or discussions.


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## Master Dan (May 11, 2012)

Earl Weiss said:


> I think you meant "It is NOT stapled..."
> 
> While my attitude may not be PC I think that while we should perhaps address tolerance and acceptance of differences in general terms, the topic of Sexual preferences / lifestyle does not need to be addressed nor should it in the TKD school.  Now, this may need to be somewhat flexible when it comes to locker room issues, and quite frankly I am not sure how or if various schools have tha ability to address it properly.  How many sets of locker rooms would you need to accomodate everyone's privacy accordingly?  What if you are one of the many schools that is in another facility like a school, healthclub or community center that doesn't have such facilities?



Your right in our Dojang but we do have teaching programs at schools during school as part of thier curriculum and do demo's on a regular basis as part of that we study and review different MA movies for thier cultural or historical value and i am really careful to make sure they are appropriate I really liked Ip Man for all its qualities they made maps and papers on teh area and the kids loved the movie I thought they would find it perhaps borinng we ran out of time for the  final fight. This is a foriegn film no bad lanuage no naked pictures and even the violence is moderate to say the least but I did not see on the cover or credits rated R we got real crap for that and were not allowed to show the final fight? so in some cases some individuals are always looking for a reason to jump on us so in allowing our T person to participate in a recent demo it did concern me however I would never consider not having them participate and majority of school admin and staff would be on my side so my concern was the flak from the religous right who dumps a small fortune into this community from the lower 48 million and millions of dollars


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