# WIPE OUT!



## Gyakuto (May 16, 2022)

I’ve been weight training since September 2021, twice a week, with very good gains in mass and strength - I have _muscles_ for the first time in my life and, shallow as it is, I have to admit that I like it 😉 It makes practising my chosen martial art much easier as strength is no longer a limiting factor.

My issue is that after my workout I am _exhausted_ for 24hrs! I often have to nap in the afternoon -more like a coma, actually😉- I feel weak and sleepy and the I’ve only recently have I started recovering by the next day. It’s quite inconvenient in a lot of ways and it’s a good job I took early retirement! Is this normal?

For back ground, I work the muscles of my back, biceps/triceps, legs, forearms, abs, shoulders and pecs each session. I do four sets of ten reps with less than 30 sec of rest between sets. I do this in slightly over an hour as I want to get my workout over with and get out of the gym! I have been a vegetarian from birth, so on training days (or more specifically, until I stops experiencing muscle soreness) I ingest protein shakes (120g per day), branch chain amino acid supplements, multivitamins,  500mg ecdysterone. I am in my mid 50s.


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## _Simon_ (May 16, 2022)

Ahh yes, some experience in this area of fatigue etc hehe.

Great to hear about your results and that you're enjoying it! I meant to actually comment on your other thread. I know you were doing either pure eccentrics or emphasised eccentrics. This takes a maaaassive toll on recovery and it depletes things in your system quite alot. If you were to do pure negatives or negative-accentuated sets (eg. 1s concentric, 6s eccentric), I would only do it for the last set of the exercise, and maybe not even for every exercise. Or just every now and then as a 'peak' before scaling things down in the coming week, only to build up again. Like a 3 steps forward 1 step back, and repeat.

This may take a bit of trial and error on your part as to how it affects your recovery. It can create immense amounts of muscle damage which, while many people believe to be key to hypertrophy, can dip into your reserves and put you in quite a catabolic state for more of the time. Sticking to solid progressive overload and consistency will be more important than intensity techniques.

Another thing is if you're going to failure or not. I used to do it all the time 10 odd years ago, but I found over time it really messed me up, I simply couldn't recover enough, and it was bizarre how quickly I would get a cold and be sick the next day. Like clockwork! Failure training isn't necessary for strength or hypertrophy gains, so I recommend keeping reps in reserve (2 or 3 RIR). If I go too close to failure for too many exercises the fatigue I feel the next day or two is huge, not to mention coooonstantly getting sick; so I've really had to hone into my intuition and my own body.

Perhaps look at your rests between sets too potentially? Less than 30s rest isn't very long and you can accumulate fatigue quite rapidly, especially if you're doing 4 sets. Obviously I know you want to keep your sessions shorter, but just an idea.

Great you're getting enough protein etc in. I also find carb intake to be really important too though so I would look at that too.

It's taken me years to become in tune with my own body and how it responds, and no longer do I destroy myself in the gym. Still love to push myself, but I now have a healthy respect for what I need and what I can handle.

Hoping any of this helps!


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## Gyakuto (May 16, 2022)

This is so helpful, _Simon_. I didn’t realise eccentric contractions were more ‘depleting of energy’. Perhaps I should restrict it to the last set and see how that goes.

Yes, the 30 sec rests are short but I dislike spending hours in the gym and often on my own and I seem to be ready. Maybe 60 sec and incorporate a bit of stretching of my stubborn hamstrings!

Thank you once again 🙏🏽


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## Oily Dragon (May 16, 2022)

What is your sleep health like?  Do you regularly get 7-8 hours of good sleep?

The reason I ask is that I've noticed that if I don't sleep well, I suffer the same effects.


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## Gyakuto (May 16, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> What is your sleep health like?  Do you regularly get 7-8 hours of good sleep?
> 
> The reason I ask is that I've noticed that if I don't sleep well, I suffer the same effects.


Thanks to the exercise, Oily Dragon, I sleep really well, a good 7-8 hours. I’ve always slept well, to be honest on account of clean living and a clear conscience. 😐


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## Wing Woo Gar (May 16, 2022)

_Simon_ said:


> Ahh yes, some experience in this area of fatigue etc hehe.
> 
> Great to hear about your results and that you're enjoying it! I meant to actually comment on your other thread. I know you were doing either pure eccentrics or emphasised eccentrics. This takes a maaaassive toll on recovery and it depletes things in your system quite alot. If you were to do pure negatives or negative-accentuated sets (eg. 1s concentric, 6s eccentric), I would only do it for the last set of the exercise, and maybe not even for every exercise. Or just every now and then as a 'peak' before scaling things down in the coming week, only to build up again. Like a 3 steps forward 1 step back, and repeat.
> 
> ...


Impressive!


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 16, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> My issue is that after my workout I am _exhausted_ for 24hrs!


My teacher worked on heavy weight all his life. One day he told me that there was a double heads weight bar in his teacher's front yard that was so heavy, everytime he saw it, he hated it. He also told me to only spend 75% of energy in weight training. Don't spent 100% energy.

It's not how much weight that you can lift today. It's whether you will still have the desire to keep lifting weight for the rest of your life. To be able to enjoy your weight training should be your highest priority.


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## Oily Dragon (May 16, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> He also told me to only spend 75% of energy in weight training. Don't spent 100% energy.


This is a big theme in kung fu. 

If you spend all your energy training, you might not have any when you actually need to call on it.


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## Oily Dragon (May 16, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> Thanks to the exercise, Oily Dragon, I sleep really well, a good 7-8 hours. I’ve always slept well, to be honest on account of clean living and a clear conscience. 😐


I'm a big proponent of the "sleep when you're tired" philosophy.  So if you're just listening to your body, more power to you, as long as there's no other underlying condition.  

I'm on a mission to stay as active as possible, like you said daily exercise is the key to good sleep.

Sleep debt is a real thing, if you're not getting enough every single day, there's no making it up the next day, your body is in a sleep deficit.  You might be able to eek out a workout or two but it's going to feel like it costs more than it should.

I spend as little time in bed nowadays than I ever have in my life, and train every day, but I know that wouldn't be possible without a decent night's sleep.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 16, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> This is a big theme in kung fu.
> 
> If you spend all your energy training, you might not have any when you actually need to call on it.


You worked out in a gym and got totally exhausted. On your way home, someone beat you up because you had no energy left to protect yourself.

There is an attitude difference between:

- No pain no gain.
- You do because you enjoy of doing it.


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## Oily Dragon (May 16, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You worked out in a gym and got totally exhausted. On your way home, someone beat you up because you had no energy left to protect yourself.
> 
> There is an attitude difference between:
> 
> ...


I almost got jumped in my gym parking lot yesterday by two young dudes.  I accidentally backed into their Jeep Rubicon (thankfully, it was a Jeep Rubicon...)

These bros were hot off a session and full of hormones and starting calling me names and were ready to throw down.  I was able to cool the situation down but it was the closest I've come to a physical encounter in a long, long time.  

Felt ready, but you never know.


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## MetalBoar (May 16, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> I’ve been weight training since September 2021, twice a week, with very good gains in mass and strength - I have _muscles_ for the first time in my life and, shallow as it is, I have to admit that I like it 😉 It makes practising my chosen martial art much easier as strength is no longer a limiting factor.
> 
> My issue is that after my workout I am _exhausted_ for 24hrs! I often have to nap in the afternoon -more like a coma, actually😉- I feel weak and sleepy and the I’ve only recently have I started recovering by the next day. It’s quite inconvenient in a lot of ways and it’s a good job I took early retirement! Is this normal?
> 
> For back ground, I work the muscles of my back, biceps/triceps, legs, forearms, abs, shoulders and pecs each session. I do four sets of ten reps with less than 30 sec of rest between sets. I do this in slightly over an hour as I want to get my workout over with and get out of the gym! I have been a vegetarian from birth, so on training days (or more specifically, until I stops experiencing muscle soreness) I ingest protein shakes (120g per day), branch chain amino acid supplements, multivitamins,  500mg ecdysterone. I am in my mid 50s.


I agree with what people are saying here.  Sleep is important, recovery is important, and following a routine that you're happy to do for the long run is especially important.  I think that _Simon_ in particular had a lot of good things to say, but I want to add that I while I agree that high intensity protocols aren't necessary, they can be done without excessive, lasting, fatigue if you manage your workout correctly and they are a very good choice if you don't want to spend much time in the gym.

The higher your intensity the greater the impact on your body and it's another important factor along with exercise volume and frequency that needs to be balanced.  If you up the intensity by training to failure, performing negative-accentuated sets, etc., you really need to reduce volume, or reduce frequency, or possibly both, in comparison to more standard protocols.  This becomes more and more true as you get more skilled at the exercises because you will become more able to achieve a much deeper inroad with practice.   Some people love high intensity routines and others hate them.  

This becomes especially relevant when deciding what you enjoy and what's going to keep you doing strength training for the long run.  I _love_ high intensity strength training. I love the mental and physical challenge and the focus required, I love the fact that once you get skilled at HIT strength training it is literally impossible to get bored doing it, I love the fact that it gets you in and out of the gym in a hurry, and l love that (at least with the protocol that I use) you have concrete and objective metrics for being done with a workout and being successful with a workout.  Some people hate HIT for exactly the reasons that I love it.  They find heavy weights and/or training to failure or negative accentuated training to be intimidating or demotivating.  They like to spend time in the gym, they aren't bored by long, repetitive, workouts, but find them satisfying.  Some people don't really like clarity, they just want to do some activity that's good for them and not worry about the details, etc.  That part is highly individual but very important for the longevity of your training program.

I've been doing almost exclusively slow motion, high intensity, resistance training for over 20 years and I'm 51 now.  The protocol I use doesn't specifically emphasize eccentric movements, but they are a significant part of the workout.  When I owned a gym (pre-covid) I worked with clients well into their 80's and my wife worked with a woman in her middle 90's who'd started in her late 80's.  HIT can be made to work for just about everyone but it requires more self awareness and management than conventional training protocols.  Luckily, in my opinion, the management is simpler and comes with a lot of side benefits.  If you don't want to spend a lot of time in the gym HIT is the way to go, you just have to experiment to figure out how much is sufficient and how much is too much, because too much is a lot easier to achieve than it is with conventional strength training.  I recommend taking good notes and would be happy to talk with you about what I document and how I approach things if you're interested. 

When you say, "I do this in slightly over an hour as I want to get my workout over with and get out of the gym!" I think *WOW*! you spend over an hour in the gym lifting, with very little rest between sets!? and (apparently) a good portion of that is negative only or performed with a heavy emphasis on the negative?  That sounds like too much volume if you are focused on eccentric movements or training to failure.  When I started using a HIT protocol I did strength training for 30 minutes 3x/week, rapidly dropped to 2x/week, and after a while I had to drop to 1x/week because I was experiencing fatigue and some of the issues that _Simon_ describes, and that was in my late 20's/early 30's.  Now I do much less and I'm still seeing measurable improvements week over week. 

After 22 years of practice I can get a much deeper inroad in a much shorter time period and my recovery isn't as good as when I was 29 anymore.  If I want to avoid the fatigue you're describing I limit myself to 1 HIT session per week, 3-6 big, compound exercises, 1 set to failure, and done.  That's a maximum.  If I'm stressed or feeling worn down or doing a lot of other vigorous physical activity I drop volume or frequency or both.  

In my own gym, where I can have everything set up in advance and don't have to wait for anyone else to finish, I can do a full body workout in < 8 minutes start to finish.  More than one session like that in a week is too much, especially if I'm doing any martial arts training that involves significant conditioning or strength training in class.  If I'm doing MA training that's particularly taxing I will sometimes drop my workout frequency to once every other week, occasionally even less often, and limit myself to 3 big, compound movements.

People often tell me that 8 minutes is impossible.  It's actually very achievable if you have good form, don't rest at all between sets, and don't leave _anything_ in the tank.  For example, chest press to complete failure in < 90 seconds, < 20 seconds to move to pull down, start immediately, work to complete failure in < 90 seconds, < 20 seconds to move to hip extension, start immediately, work to complete  failure in < 90 seconds, < 20 seconds to move to leg press and start, work to complete  failure in < 90 seconds,  done.  That's with a trainer to take notes, you might need a little longer between exercises if you're self training and do much documentation, but it's still going to be under 10 minutes most of the time and with a trainer and the right set up you can keep the pause between exercises to less than 10 seconds.  If you train to a true, complete, failure, there is no need to do a second set.  You've already taxed your muscles sufficiently to provide a strong stimulus to get stronger.


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## Damien (May 16, 2022)

Some very good responses already. Four more things to throw into consideration; supersets, changing your split, deloads and ongoing nutrition.

*Supersets*
Rather than doing- exercise A, rest x4, Exercise B, rest x4 etc. Do exercise A, exercise B, rest x4. That way you can give yourself a longer rest period- e.g. a minute, but still spend the same amount of time in the gym because you only rest every other set. If you work opposite muscles in exercises A and B, e.g. bicep curls then tricep extensions then the worked muscle also gets a rest whilst you do the other exercise.

You may find this leaves you less beat up, and still keeps your workouts from getting too long.

One thing I would say though, is don't do it with the big leg movements. Squats, deadlifts etc. really take a toll on your system as the muscles are so large. 
Which leads into...

*Splits*
It sounds like you are doing full body every time. This is perfectly fine. It's how I like to train too. However, if you're doing big exercises for the quads and hamstrings on the same day, that takes a TON of energy. It would be better to split things up into one main leg exercise and some accessory leg exercises. For example squats and calf raises, maybe some light hamstring curls on one day, then deadlifts, tibialis raises and some gentle knee extensions another. You can of course mix it up, but you can see that you're varying the muscles being worked, and especially which ones are being heavily taxed.

*Deloads*
Don't forget to periodically throw in a deload week where you train much lighter and with lower volume. Your body needs time to recover if you've been continually upping the loads. Some people will do it every 4 weeks, others 6, depends on how you feel. But this could be a big factor you've just hit the point of over training, and your body needs a rest. A lot of bodybuilders will take 2-4 weeks off once a year just to completely let their joints etc recover.

*On Going Nutrition*
It sounds like you're well aware of the need for good nutrition, but I'd suggest you keep your protein intake up even on days where you aren't training. The body is constantly breaking down and building tissue whether you are training or not. Training obviously stimulates this to happen at a faster rate, but it doesn't stop when the soreness stops (you don't even need to get sore to build muscle- it's a by product not the cause). So to make sure your body always has enough protein- 2.2g per kg of body weight is a good estimate, though if you want a more accurate determination of your needs you could go by lean body mass. The protein doesn't need to be in shakes either if you're sick of them, mix whey isolate or brown rice protein into yoghurt or your cereal, into a fruit smoothie, even into your soup (so long as its flavourful, and maybe not the whey!).

It's also worth thinking about whether you are eating enough calories given all the intense exercise you are doing. Not eating enough is another reason to feel tired.

I use a calorie calculator to work my needs out, as my activity levels do go up and down a bit depending on my schedule. I used to always edit the numbers I got out, based on my knowledge of nutrition/protein requirements, so I spent a few months diving into research on calorie requirements and protein needs and ended up building my own calorie/ macro calculator. It's not the prettiest thing in the world, but I think it's one of the best out there in terms of numbers. Obviously everyone is different, so there will be some small variation person to person, and (usual disclaimers) I'm not a doctor, so use at your own risk, but you can find it here if you're interested: The World's Best Calorie and Macronutrient Calculator —  Kung Fit: Kung Fu and Fitness to stay Fit for Life

Being vegetarian it is possible you may also have an iron deficiency, which can lead to fatigue. It's pretty common, might be worth a trip to the doc.


One last thing to chuck into the mix. If you're main goal is building those shapely muscles, you don't have to go heavy. A recent meta analysis of studies on hypertrophy found that lifting heavy and lifting light had the same effect on muscle building, so long as total work (e.g. reps x sets x weight) was equated. The old dogma of 2-6 strength, 6-12 hypertrophy, 12-20 endurance can be put to bed. The strength and endurance bit checks out, but the hypertrophy happens the same everywhere.

Might take you a bit longer, but lifting lighter weights for more reps might tire you out less.

Hopefully at least some of that is useful for you 

Good luck with the training!


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## _Simon_ (May 17, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> This is so helpful, _Simon_. I didn’t realise eccentric contractions were more ‘depleting of energy’. Perhaps I should restrict it to the last set and see how that goes.
> 
> Yes, the 30 sec rests are short but I dislike spending hours in the gym and often on my own and I seem to be ready. Maybe 60 sec and incorporate a bit of stretching of my stubborn hamstrings!
> 
> Thank you once again 🙏🏽


Yeah no worries! The eccentric portion is really important still, controlling the weight on the descent and you get valuable gains with a controlled negative, but yes too much can be very damaging on a few levels.

I agree at least 60 seconds rest. Shorter rests definitely have their place depending on what you're doing and emphasising, but if your recovery is out of whack it's definitely worth looking at.

Let us know how you go! And of course many other variables impact recovery too and can make training sessions much more depleting than they need to be: external/internal stresses, work/career, relationships, mental health, sleep, nutrition etc


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## Gyakuto (May 17, 2022)

MetalBoar said:


> I agree with what people are saying here.  Sleep is important, recovery is important, and following a routine that you're happy to do for the long run is especially important.  I think that _Simon_ in particular had a lot of good things to say, but I want to add that I while I agree that high intensity protocols aren't necessary, they can be done without excessive, lasting, fatigue if you manage your workout correctly and they are a very good choice if you don't want to spend much time in the gym.
> 
> The higher your intensity the greater the impact on your body and it's another important factor along with exercise volume and frequency that needs to be balanced.  If you up the intensity by training to failure, performing negative-accentuated sets, etc., you really need to reduce volume, or reduce frequency, or possibly both, in comparison to more standard protocols.  This becomes more and more true as you get more skilled at the exercises because you will become more able to achieve a much deeper inroad with practice.   Some people love high intensity routines and others hate them.
> 
> ...


Such valuable insight. Thank you for taking the time to respond 🙏🏽


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## Gyakuto (May 17, 2022)

Damien said:


> Some very good responses already. Four more things to throw into consideration; supersets, changing your split, deloads and ongoing nutrition.
> 
> *Supersets*
> Rather than doing- exercise A, rest x4, Exercise B, rest x4 etc. Do exercise A, exercise B, rest x4. That way you can give yourself a longer rest period- e.g. a minute, but still spend the same amount of time in the gym because you only rest every other set. If you work opposite muscles in exercises A and B, e.g. bicep curls then tricep extensions then the worked muscle also gets a rest whilst you do the other exercise.
> ...


There’s a lot of very interesting stuff to digest there (pun intended).

When I go to the gym I feel the need to ‘blast my body’…punish it for ageing, slowing down, becoming inflexible etc, so the idea of sessions where I ‘take it easier’ would cause my a lot of psychological trauma!😀 I ‘wasted time’ chatting to a young lady at the gym on Monday and getting her number (she needs an anatomy tutor…perfectly innocent😐) and subsequently I made my chest work out extra tough with 5 sets of cable flys performed slowly to make up the time. It’s rather strange since I am intrinsically a lazy person and I see the additional exercise as beneficial in an age of sedentary lifestyles.

Bloods are all OK…Ihave a haematologist in my house.

Could this simply be my advancing age?


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## Damien (May 17, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> There’s a lot of very interesting stuff to digest there (pun intended).
> 
> When I go to the gym I feel the need to ‘blast my body’…punish it for ageing, slowing down, becoming inflexible etc, so the idea of sessions where I ‘take it easier’ would cause my a lot of psychological trauma!😀 I ‘wasted time’ chatting to a young lady at the gym on Monday and getting her number (she needs an anatomy tutor…perfectly innocent😐) and subsequently I made my chest work out extra tough with 5 sets of cable flys performed slowly to make up the time. It’s rather strange since I am intrinsically a lazy person and I see the additional exercise as beneficial in an age of sedentary lifestyles.
> 
> ...


I mean things certainly do tend to tire you out more as you get older, but equally you are what you do. Although at first new regimes can tire you out lots, the body starts to adapt and you get used to them and get fitter and stronger. I always tell my students, the only problem then is that you just need to train harder, so you still feel knackered afterwards! 😂

There are plenty of people a lot older that do a lot of weight lifting. I haven't ever spoken directly to any so I couldn't say how they feel the next day. Scooby is a great example and I believe has content on over 50s working out- https://www.youtube.com/user/scooby1961

I get that going easy for a week sounds counter intuitive. A lot of people do feel like they just need to beast it every time, but trust me, a deload week every now and then makes a big difference. Literally all of the successful powerlifters do it, I expect most of the successful natural body builders too. Lifting weights regularly and intensely takes a big toll on the body's energy (as you've found), and it needs time to recover a little. You'll be able to come back the next week with more energy, go harder and ultimately will see better progression in strength and muscle gain over the long term.


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## Gyakuto (Jun 12, 2022)

Last Friday was an ‘increase weight day’. I simply wore 2kg wrist-weights to provide an increment between my gym’s dumbbell increments. I also include a new abs exercise. The day after, I was in such pain, fatigued and felt very unwell necessitating oral analgesia! I tried a gentle seafront walk to flush out lactated, blah-de-blah but I had to go to bed at 8pm!

My conclusion, after talking to life-long friends, is this is all to do with advancing age, nothing more than that. I have a reduced capacity to recover because I’m getting on in years.🤷🏽‍♂️ Oh well…😢 ‘Time is the fire in which we burn.’


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## _Simon_ (Jun 12, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> Last Friday was an ‘increase weight day’. I simply wore 2kg wrist-weights to provide an increment between my gym’s dumbbell increments. I also include a new abs exercise. The day after, I was in such pain, fatigued and felt very unwell necessitating oral analgesia! I tried a gentle seafront walk to flush out lactated, blah-de-blah but I had to go to bed at 8pm!
> 
> My conclusion, after talking to life-long friends, is this is all to do with advancing age, nothing more than that. I have a reduced capacity to recover because I’m getting on in years.🤷🏽‍♂️ Oh well…😢 ‘Time is the fire in which we burn.’


Ah yikes sorry to hear...

Yeah we all have to learn our own recovery limits/requirements, which do change over time. But definitely an opportunity to try out new stuff and learn how to increase your tolerance wherever you can. Trial and error, but still train


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## Gyakuto (Jun 12, 2022)

I’m 54 years old 😢


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## _Simon_ (Jun 12, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> I’m 54 years old 😢


Ah okay, yeah it may not be age-related still.. I always like to just assess how things are currently, and I've often surprised myself how it can revert back to having more energy etc later on at a different phase in my life. There are so many variables involved, so something else may even need tweaking possibly? Even tweaking how much volume you're doing can solve alot, or how close to failure you get... experiment and see how ya go okay 👍🏻


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## Gyakuto (Jun 13, 2022)

I had another gym session today as I did last Friday and although I’m tired, I don’t feel half as bad as I did last time. I really didn’t want to go this morning but once I was there I enjoyed it. It’s all very strange and maybe I was having an off day last time.

However, I’m realising that my gym sessions and obsession with getting stronger and developing muscles is taking priority over my Budo training and I started weight-training to enhance my Budo in the first place. I need to rethink my actual aims and redress my balance.


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