# The Sparring Paradox



## Kenpo Yahoo (Jul 10, 2002)

I was wondering how everyone approaches the idea of sparring.  

Do you focus mainly on tournament style (mostly point sparring)?
Do you work continuous sparring (i.e. a certain amount of time)?
Do you work NHB style fighting?
What's your approach?

Now to the heart of things.  Why, in kenpo, do we spend years upon years to master intricate techniques for our self-defense, yet in it comes to sparring we revert to Tae Kwon Do style actions (either that or we end up boxing).  Why is this?  I only bring it up because I've recently seen footage of some of the old IKC tournaments and it seems that everyone seemed to be doing the same thing.  Sure some kicked more often (and perhaps a lot higher), but the approach appeared to be the same.  Maybe some of you will say tournament rules dictate your approach.  Okay, that's fine, then what do you personally do to train your kenpo in a realistic environment?  Have you ever tried any of your "stuff" on an uncompliant body (even if the resistance level is only 20%).  

If not, how do you know that what your doing will work?  Have you field tested in some other way?  I know that some out there may be bouncers at the local bar, but do you find yourself using more kenpo or more of something else?  Any security or law enforcement personel out there want to key in, feel free.  

Hopefully subsequent answers will provide a one of two things:
1)  A look at how the sparring curriculum reflect the individuals study of kenpo (not the other way around)

                 and

2)  A look at how individuals train to make the intricate and technical moves in AK, practical and realistic.

Now for the disclaimer  (I still have a bad taste in my mouth from other Forums):  This is not meant to be disrespectful in any manner, so don't take it that way.  It is simply meant to promote discussion among intelligent individuals.  Please ignore this post if you are not capable of intelligent discussion.  

Respectfully


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## Kirk (Jul 10, 2002)

Some look at sparring as a glorified game of tag.  I've never had
the opportunity to do it.  But how else would you know how to
parry or block a TRUE punch?  I would *think* sparring would
at least train you for that.   

A friend of mine studies kendo.  He's used to keeping his eye on
the "sword", and he's used to it coming at him VERY FAST.  I don't
have that advantage.  I think even though he trains with swords,
he could at the very least have time enough to think, when a fist
is coming at him.  

This is all personal theory.  It's also why I want to try it.


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## Seig (Jul 10, 2002)

I approach sparring as a practical proving ground for techs.  As i have said in other poss, my students have been faced with Alternating Maces also Twin Kimono, Kimono Grab(controlled of course) or something else they have been working on.  Whatever the belt, so is the response.
    Don't get me wrong, we sometimes play with tournament sparring and such for a break from time to time.


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## Blindside (Jul 10, 2002)

Hi Seig,

How do you do this, if you are just trying to apply techniques, can you not feed them anything else?  Do you ever jab/cross on these techniques?  When you say apply their techniques is this in the ideal phase only or do you make them work to apply the tech (grafting)?

I'm curious, this isn't what I think of when I think of "sparring."

thanks,

Lamont


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## Rainman (Jul 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _
> 
> *I was wondering how everyone approaches the idea of sparring.
> 
> ...



Techniques teach how to control an opponent in a somewhat static environment.   Freestyle is live and you should be using many of the same concepts.   The offensive techniques are what you may use for an aggressive move- these techniques use the same stuff as your basics, forms, and self defense applications.

If you look at book 2 (II) you will see boxing like defense mechanisms.  These are very valuable in route to becoming well rounded.  

TKD- Hmmm.  Out of range- within range(critical distance)- contact penetration(kick puch) contact manipulation (CM).   CM uses sweeps and takedowns amongst other things.   There are some fine fighters out there from other systems-  the real difference is AK has basic material for all four ranges.   That would be the job of your teacher to explain how the 4 ranges work and what they contain.   If at your school freestyle looks either only like boxing or a long range type system present some questions to the senior instructor at your studio.

Don't hesitate to ask questions but you may want to narrow the scope.  You asked some very complicated questions and a lot of them.  

I will leave you with this thought- practice it all with whomever you can.  Bring your notebook with you to class and take notes.  It is amazing (and embarrassing ) to look back and review your old thoughts etc.

Hope this gave you an idea or 2


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## Blindside (Jul 10, 2002)

> Kirk posted:  He's used to keeping his eye on the "sword", and he's used to it coming at him VERY FAST. I don't have that advantage. I think even though he trains with swords, he could at the very least have time enough to think, when a fist is coming at him.



You are right about that, alot of the FMA instructors believe that when you get used to the speed of a stick/sword, empty hand attacks appear to be relatively slow.  I would contest your wording though, you still don't have time to "think" when it hits the fan.   

Does your school not do any sparring?  Guess it just seems odd to me. 

Thanks,

Lamont


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## Kirk (Jul 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Blindside _
> 
> *
> 
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Unfortunately, no.  I still think I'm in the best kenpo school in 
my city, but I would love to spar.  I know I'd be toast, because
I don't spar .. but I think the conditioning would be beneficial.


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## ikenpo (Jul 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
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> *
> 
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No sparring, really? Wow, I wonder if it is an insurance issue? I've seen the pictures in your school and your instructor has done his time in the ring and was a scrapper. 

I think sparring adds a lot to conditioning and developing your timing and distance. It also teaches you how to take a punch or kick. But that is my opinion and its not the end of the world if you don't do it. The one thing I would say when you do spar is to use the proper safety equipment....

jb:asian:


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Jul 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Rainman _
> 
> *
> 
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I understand the four ranges,  and I know what sparring looks like at my school.  My question wasn't about what I'm doing, rather I'm curious as to the magnitude and direction that other individuals are pursuing in regards to sparring.  The fact that one of the above posters asked whether I meant to perform the technique in an ideal or modified situation should be a pretty good hint.  Most situations start off ideal, but rarely stay that way for long, especially if the confrontation carries on for quite a while.
You stated above that techniques are teach you how to control an attacker in a "somewhat" static environment.  How many "static" fights have you ever seen?  I'm asking because I'm curious as to what steps practitioners are taking to gain experience in this area.

It seems that most schools teach sparring, yet they don't teach it from a kenpo standpoint.  I've even seen videos of some of the "kenpo greats"  sparring, yet they revert back to boxing and Tae Kwon do principles, why is that?  I know that when your in Rome you should do as the Romans do (i.e. when at a tournament you should abide by the tournament rules), but does ANYONE out there try and teach their students to use there techniques in a DYNAMIC environment?  Shouldn't this be an  important factor of training, what do you think?


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## FUZZYJ692000 (Jul 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Blindside _
> 
> *Hi Seig,
> 
> ...



Lamont, being one of Seig's students I can maybe try and give you an idea as to what he does with us.  He has us learn the techniques that are required for our belt, but he also likes to know that we can use those techniques when sparring or outside of class if needed.  Yes, sparring can be fun and physically good for you, but the point of sparring is to execute what you have been taught.  Sparring is almost like a mock fight if you want to see it that way.  As you progress in belt rank and skills than the hard those that out-rank you spar you.  What is the point on learning techniques if you can't actually execute them when put into that situation?  When sparring at our dojo you get a variety as to what people are going to throw at you and you don't know what they're going to throw at you just as you were in a fight.  The difference is that we are not out to kill eachother so we're not hitting with all we have, hit hard enough to where you know you would have been knocked out.  

As for tournament sparring, we play around with that to give some variety.  But we went to a tournament last month and I was highly disappointed!!!  It looked like a boxing match and everyone's techniques were so sloppy, even the upper belts that were there.  It made me wonder if they were put into an actual situation where their training would be needed if they could actually use it to their advantage, because they were not doing it in the rings.  If you practice sparring with no techniques or forms than you're not practiceing what has been taught to you, my own opinion on that.  

I hope that helps a little on your question.  If not let us know and we'll try to elaborate on what we do.  

Jani:asian:


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## Seig (Jul 11, 2002)

Jani did a fairly good job of explaining it.  Let me see if I can carry it a step further.  I personally have been sparring for over 20 years.  I have also had my share of fights, street and ring.  It was not until about 7 years ago I decided to apply the ideal techniques while sparring.  For example, alternating maces.  Now granted, alternating maces is for a push, but it can also be used against a punch...So, yes I may have to modify the technique slightly, but I see an attack, and decide which technique I want to use or i decide which technique I want and then try and manipulate my opponent into throwing something that will trigger that response.  The technique may not be exactly the ideal phase, but I stay as true to the execution of the technique as possible.  If all else fails, i rely on the Master Keys.


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## Rainman (Jul 11, 2002)

> Most situations start off ideal, but rarely stay that way for long, especially if the confrontation carries on for quite a while.



IF MOST SITUATIONS START OFF IDEAL WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR...  you've already been invited.  By that rationale you don't need anything else and it will not last long at all.  Techniques are easily executed from an ideal attack.   Guess what- all attacks are ideal you just have to find the corresponding technique that uses the disecting or redirecting plane as the destructive process ensues for contact maintenence with dimensional zone cancellation etc.  That would be the spontaneous stage.

CM drills bridge the gap between some of the discourses of AK.  Checking Hands is an excellent way to bridge, but it works with concepts and principles as well as structurally sound basics.   

What boxing and tkd principles are you talking about?  Name one.


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## cdhall (Jul 11, 2002)

Seig is on the money.  Mr. Duffy says that Mr. Hancock actually did Dance of Death during tournament sparring once.  So there you go.

When I first signed up in San Antonio we spent 50% of the time Sparring for tournament practice.  Mr. Swan had a tournament then so we were all expected to attend a few each year.

Then when I went to Mr. Duffy's school these guys were nuts.  They'd clash, do a takedown and then grapple.  That is pretty much the way it is here still.  At the upper ranks, they try to take you down and grapple on occassion.  Otherwise they try to beat you back into your tortoise shell.

We don't have any flat out tournament practice.  I have to request this if I have a tournament coming up, and/or I may go to another school that does more tournament sparring.  We have a good school closer to my house that has an open invitation for us to go there and fight.  I've been once, I plan to go back.
:asian:


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## satans.barber (Jul 11, 2002)

I can't believe some of you don't do any sparring! As Bruce Lee said, "Trying to learn martial arts without sparring is like trying to swim on dry land!".

We try to do lots, and not points sparring either because it's crap for stamina, you don't even break a sweat. We normally start of lite, and then go in a bit more once we're warmed up. Often it's bare knuckle as it takes ages to get all the pads on, so it's more about developing blocks than try to land one on your mate's head.

We do normal sparring, hands only (which is surprisingly nothing like boxing), legs only (where you can block with your hands) and sometimes we do it as if we have an injury, e.g. we might stick out right hand in our belt round the back as if it's broken (enter the not so legendary one-armed boxers!).

Higher belts also do 2-1 and 3-1 sparring, sometimes sparring as people with knowledge and sometimes sparring as street fighters (as in with more swingining punches, no roundhouses really and lots of one person trying to grab you while the other cave your face in).

As for practicing techniques for reality, it's diffucult to do this with the lower belts because they're not fast enough, but higher belts often do the attacks full speed, maybe aiming just to the side of the head on punches so we don't break anyone's nose or bust people's lips up if they don't pull it off.

As for testing the effectiveness of grabs etc., the techniques seem to work when people really grab on hard, they are designed to after all!

Occasionally we improvise on grabs as well, so maybe we start in a full nelson or bear hug, and have someone else coming in to punch us, and we have to try and get out of it all and deal with both of them.

Finally, we often do worst case scenarios, like maybe you're face up against the wall with your arm up your back, and we see if we could get out. Usually we arrive at the conclusion that it'd be better if we didn't get into that situation in the first place!

Ian.


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## brianhunter (Jul 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _
> 
> *I was wondering how everyone approaches the idea of sparring.
> 
> ...




I have been in law enforcement or the military my whole adult life I can give you a couple of examples where it has been used in a street street scenerio effectively..........

Calming the storm.....It was more of an windmill puch as opposed to club attack but it did "calm" the attack pretty quick.

Crossing talon.....resist this all you want if you apply the + and - right on this they can resist and still go down...I have had my wrist grabbed and im glad to have had this technique.

Some guys train "air kenpo" and that is fine, start thinking of the dynamics of attacks...."okay its a lapel grab are they pushing in or pulling you?" start roughing each other up and do it as you do on the streets you will really start to think of your principles and how they are applied. Alot of schools and people train this way. Clyde gave a pretty good speech (and demonstration) to me on this and Im a believer every since. Some techniques will not work on some people, just be able to go with the flow and use whatever is available......If Im gonna defend close to full throttle, the attack should be close to full throttle (just watch them elbows!) I learned a good saying in the army "train like you fight"


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Jul 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Rainman _
> 
> *
> What boxing and tkd principles are you talking about?  Name one. *



When I'm referring to boxing or TKD principles, I'm also referring to the strategy that these principles govern.  I'm curious why people would spend years training in kenpo and working kenpo principles and when the tournament comes around they don't even work what they've learned.  For instance, I was at a tournament a couple of months ago and just about every fighter there had all their weight on the back leg, there body turned away from their opponent, with their left hand down and their right hand by their head.  Yet the various schools that were represented taught a variety of different arts (TKD, Kenpo, Kung-Fu, etc...), so why was everybody fighting like this?  It wasn't just that tournament either.  Almost every one I've seen and participated in was the same way.  

For instance #2.  Last year I was at a tournament, and three guys from two different schools (two of these guys were obviously not gonna be kickers----- kinda portly), came out punching with zero technique and no plan.  One of the big guys pummeled his opponent (so it worked for him), but the other two got plastered to the mat.  The other big guy took a spinning back kick to the stomach, and the other guy took a clean shot to the side of the head gear (after that we wasn't real aggressive).  

Now I could go into the ACTUAL principles for you but I believe that you get the picture.  Obviously kenpo isn't entirely unique from a strategical standpoint, but it shouldn't look like something it's not (TKD and Boxing).   I'm not knocking either of the two, TKD is an amazing sport, and boxers are some of the best fighters out there, but if your studying kenpo why aren't you learning to make it work in everyday situations?

I appreciate the input from Sieg and his student(s), I too am disappointed with some of the things that I see at tournaments.  
I've been actively exploring ways to incorporate the selfdefense material into my sparring.  IMHO, this has been quite a challenge, it's hard to go back and re-teach yourself something that has become so engrained.  Does anyone have any pointers?  Or advice?

Sieg---  What association are you with? (i.e. who leads it)  I can't make out what the crest is in your avatar.  Thanks for your input.

To everyone else--
I am in no way trying to be disrespectful, I believe that people should be able to talk with each other intelligently.  Just because we don't agree on some things doesn't mean that there can't be a dialogue (heck I don't agree with my parents on a bunch of stuff, but I still call them.)

:stoplurk:


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Jul 11, 2002)

BrianHunter  and SatansBarber 

Thanks for info

Respectfully


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## Rainman (Jul 11, 2002)

> When I'm referring to boxing or TKD principles, I'm also referring to the strategy that these principles govern. I'm curious why people would spend years training in kenpo and working kenpo principles and when the tournament comes around they don't even work what they've learned. For instance, I was at a tournament a couple of months ago and just about every fighter there had all their weight on the back leg, there body turned away from their opponent, with their left hand down and their right hand by their head. Yet the various schools that were represented taught a variety of different arts (TKD, Kenpo, Kung-Fu, etc...), so why was everybody fighting like this? It wasn't just that tournament either. Almost every one I've seen and participated in was the same way.




You didn't pay attention.  This is all about the four ranges and zone cancellation.   The SD techniques are full of manipulations and fourth range constituents.   Many ways to freestyle and you need to spend time in all four ranges.  It depends on how the person opposite you is.   Different strategies for different sizes and strength factors.   

Manipulations are difficult unless the person has been set up.   Why is this so important?  The techniques use manipulations (at least a large number) for dimensional zone controll.   Tournaments by and large do not allow manipulations such as shown in the self defense teks.  

The offensive teks such as B4aHr etc, are self defense friendly and as tournament friendly as AK can be unless you are only using the first 3 ranges.   That is basically what you are talking about in reference to tkd and boxing.  That and some folks who are limited in the freestyle game by either commericial teachers and/or commercial events.    

To use Sd teks in an equal combative situation (which you should not be in anyways but good to practice in) pick a technique and learn what, why and how it controls the person.     Where each strike ends a new one begins etc.  If you understand that then you will know in order to train your muclse memory it will take time.   Sometimes the intent of the movement isn't what you always thought is was.


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## RCastillo (Jul 11, 2002)

Pros in here for me to say anything. I think I'll just sit back , and learn. Where's my notebook?


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## warriorsage (Jul 12, 2002)

I think I understand what Mr yahoo is saying and asking and it sounds similar to a thread I started a couple months back (The Sparring Debate). My main question wasn't so much about point fighting or continuous fighting, but rather "why is it so hard to do 'techniques' when sparring? AND, how can we better practice our sparring so that techniques can start to flow?"

My major observation about the sparring I've done is that it is always two "karate" guys (or TKD, JKD, etc) fighting each other. And when two "karate" guys fight, we fight like "karate" guys  backknuckles, reverse punches, side kicks, roundhouse kicks, ridgehands, etc. It's damn hard to try and do anything but "avoid/evade" when a skilled and fast fighter is coming at you using these weapons. Thta's why the usual defense is very basic.

My idea is to practice sparring like this: One guy is the karate guy and the other is the street fighter. The street fighter is not allowed to do any kenpo. This doesn't mean he can't fight with skills, but that his skills should be limited to those of the average non-martial artist. he should fight like a boxer, or wrestler or tough guy, etc. There must be a high level of trust and control between the two fighters obviously, but this way you can get a better feel of fighting with someone who isn't using all the same tricks. Then again, if you are good enough to really stomp another martial artist doing "karate vs karate" sparring, you are probably light years ahead in the game.

"That's all I got to say about that," F. Gump


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## BKSB (Jul 12, 2002)

In regards to tournament sparring the Kenpoist is restricted
  by the use of safety equipment.   Almost all encounters will   be   in    the form of a clash so the use of 3-4 weapons  is all that is 
  needed.

  1-front snap kick
   2- rear hand reverse punch
   3- Lead leg side kick
   4- Lead hand backfist and or ridgehand.

    Think in terms of what was/is called 3rd strike primary,
 where your first 2 moves are distraction or manipulations to
   create an opening for your scoring weapon. Also it
 is best to scope out the judges ahead of time to note which
  weapon or targets they react to. Be sure to align your self
 in the line of site of the judge who favors your attack.

 For street style the best training happens on Friday/Saturday
 nights in the studio where you start in the back of the room
 and have to get to the front door by survivng the phalanx
 of opponents in your way. With no safety equipment but
 the self control of not causing serious injury to your fellow
 students, this King of the Hill mentality generates peer
 respect for being able to take as well as giving it out.
 Getting your *** kicked and standing back up to try again
  shows an inner strength greater than the 300lb gorilla
 who tends to dispatch his oppents with ease.


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## Seig (Jul 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _
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The crest in my avatar is uniquley my own.  It was designed by my wife Kenpo Tess.  At the time it was designed and made, i had no affiliation.  I had just left my previous teacher.  I am now with the IKKO.


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## satans.barber (Jul 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> 
> *
> The crest in my avatar is uniquley my own.  It was designed by my wife Kenpo Tess.  At the time it was designed and made, i had no affiliation.  I had just left my previous teacher.  I am now with the IKKO. *



I was reading the little bit in one of my shiney new Infinite Insights books (good *SO* far *BUT* I hate *THE* way every *OTHER* bloody *WORD* is in *BOLD CAPITALS*) about the crest and the meaning of all the different parts, I never knew so much thought had gone into it! There's a couple of bits I don't agree with, but it's mostly sound.

Ian.


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## satans.barber (Jul 12, 2002)

While we're on the topic of sparring, I'm interested to know how many of you senseis spar with you students (or indeed how many of you students spar with you senseis)?

We do a lot of sparring with each other but never with Glen or Phil, I don't know if this is because he'd just wipe us up or if he prefers to watch. With his senseii being so far away I don't think Glen gets a chance to do that much or indeed any sparring of his own (well, not in class, he does plenty in the pub!), I wonder if he'd like it if we higher belts offered to spar him?

He'd probably just kick the crap out of us!

Ian.


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## Scott Bonner (Jul 12, 2002)

My Sensei spars with us, and, when sparring 1-on-1, uses the opportunity to teach us stuff (usually with motion rather than words).


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## Blindside (Jul 12, 2002)

Well, we spar everyone, I spar my instructor (if you can call it that, its usually me getting pounded ), and our school has an open door policy on Tuesday nights, so anyone can walk in and jump in the sparring class.  

If I spar a lower rank, I don't just run over my opponent, I fight down to slightly above their level, so that they can learn.  While doing the sparring I give them tips on what to work on.

Some instructors don't spar because of age or injuries, but I think more don't spar because they might look bad in front of their students.  My instructor(s) view on it is that if you can make him look bad, well great, maybe he will learn something from it.

I dunno, just our view on the subject.

Lamont


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## RCastillo (Jul 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> 
> *
> The crest in my avatar is uniquley my own.  It was designed by my wife Kenpo Tess.  At the time it was designed and made, i had no affiliation.  I had just left my previous teacher.  I am now with the IKKO. *



So, Tess is the POWER behind the Power? Interesting! 

I am now kneeling, let me know when it's safe to look Tess in the eyes!:asian:


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Jul 12, 2002)

I just went back and read the thread entitled "The Sparring Debate,"  It had some pretty good insight.  If you have a few extra minutes (who am I kidding we all have way to much time on our hands if your reading this) you should go check it out.

Just type [   The Sparring Debate ]  in at the search prompt.

Thanks for all the feed back, keep the ideas coming.


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## Seig (Jul 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
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> *
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Behind every great man there is a great woman.....
You may look her in the eyes, but if I catch you flirting....:duel:


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## Seig (Jul 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by satans.barber _
> 
> *While we're on the topic of sparring, I'm interested to know how many of you senseis spar with you students (or indeed how many of you students spar with you senseis)?
> 
> ...


I make a point of sparring ll of my students.  I spar them at their level.  When I fell they have reached a comfort zone at their current level, I take it up a notch on them and force them to grow.


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## RCastillo (Jul 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> 
> *
> Behind every great man there is a great woman.....
> You may look her in the eyes, but if I catch you flirting....:duel: *



I would never do that Master Seig!


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## RCastillo (Jul 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> 
> *
> I make a point of sparring ll of my students.  I spar them at their level.  When I fell they have reached a comfort zone at their current level, I take it up a notch on them and force them to grow. *



Translation: Then he proceeds to kick the crap out of them!


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## Seig (Jul 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> 
> *
> 
> I would never do that Master Seig! *


I am *NO* master


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## Seig (Jul 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> 
> *
> 
> Translation: Then he proceeds to kick the crap out of them! *


I would never do that, it's far too messy.


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## RCastillo (Jul 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> 
> *
> I am NO master *



Hey, if you take the cash, you take the title!


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## Seig (Jul 15, 2002)

another 15 posts, and I'll take the title.....on here anyway.


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## Chronuss (Jul 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> 
> *
> 
> Translation: Then he proceeds to kick the crap out of them! *




hehe...that's not true.  but when sensei does spar with us, he does go at our own personal level to help us with timing and trying to force openings.  usually sparring with sensei keeps people in check and let's them know where they really stand.  when Bill(big351stang) and I are able to block ONE of sensei's technique's during a round, we hoot and holler that we were actually able to do it....then he proceeds to take up the slack and resumes kicking the crap outta us....   when sparring with sensei, he usually gives us insight on a particular combo or an approach to block it, and gives praise when he feels that it's due, so it's always a learning experience.

force us to grow...whew...I'm still a damn toddler.  there's still many-a-moon to go before I feel that I've grown any in sparring.


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## KenpoTess (Jul 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
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ahhh to have a man kneel down.. *what  a glorious feeling .. you may arise Ricardo.. but dare heed what our good man Seig has to say.. **smirks..*


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## KenpoTess (Jul 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> 
> *
> I am NO master *



*oh that means I can toss away my leathers.. errr.. never mind this is a family show. *snickers*


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## KenpoTess (Jul 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> 
> *
> 
> Translation: Then he proceeds to kick the crap out of them! *



Pictures DO say 1000 words.. 

taken tonight.. oh poor TestDummy Alex.. *smirks


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## FUZZYJ692000 (Jul 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by KenpoTess _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



Poor who?  Why?  I don't even think that was the worse of the pictures as us getting our butts beat tonight.  I like the ones with Billy running, I don't get to see a lot of that usually it's me.


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## Seig (Jul 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by KenpoTess _
> 
> *
> 
> *oh that means I can toss away my leathers.. errr.. never mind this is a family show. *snickers* *


No, Keep them, let's not carried away:rofl:


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## satans.barber (Jul 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by KenpoTess _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



I like the way he's blocking that kick with his head 

Ian.


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## Seig (Jul 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by satans.barber _
> 
> *
> 
> ...


He did *NOT* learn to block like that from me!


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## WilliamTLear (Jul 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by satans.barber _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



He's just getting ready bite Sieg's foot off. Can't you see it? The boy is mean! I tell you I know a winner when I see one!


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## Goldendragon7 (Jul 20, 2002)

They teach them that in WV
:asian:


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## RCastillo (Jul 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by KenpoTess _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



That looks like Van "Seig" Dame


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## Goldendragon7 (Jul 24, 2002)

Good thing he is so short so I can kick him in the head too.
:asian:


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## Seig (Jul 24, 2002)

Hey,  I may be short, but um, I am short!:wah:
The guy in the picture is actually taller than I am.


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## Goldendragon7 (Jul 24, 2002)

I kick him................... it's much easier.......

:rofl:


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