# Finger Whips



## phoenix

I have been having a discussion with some friends regarding finger whips (aka basically similar to the Crane Finger Whips found in AK's Finger Set). Let's set up a quick scenario. Take Sword and Hammer, eliminate the initial handsword and make it a Finger Whip to the eyes (so the whip's trajectory is to your flank rather than straight ahead). The rest of the technique can remain the same.

When executing this finger whip (or one similar), IDEALLY, what part of your hand should make contact with the opponents eyes? And Why?

Some options:
a. The very tips of the fingers/fingernail surface
b. The first knuckle joint down from the fingertips
c. The longer, flatter 'middle' portion of the finger (as if curling your hands halfway to a fist where the portion of the finger between first and second joint/knuckle are the striking surface)
d. Other

I have my own thoughts, but don't want to prejudice my own question just yet. 

To add a bit more spin, does the striking surface you are utilizing for the finger whip vary based on target (eyes vs. nose vs. cheek) or would you use the same striking surface regardless of the target? 

I look forward to your replies!

Thanks.

Sean


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## mantis

it's probably wont be THAT accurate.  It's difficult to say i want to hit them with the nails! because it probably wont happen, not even in slow motion. But usually you want to produce "stinging" sensation which happens with the ending parts of your fingers.  fingers and wrists have to be relaxed. what works best with finger whipping or stinging is to bring the opponent's face forward.  this will make the gap closer and will surprise the opponent and this is what makes finger whipping most effective.


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## bushidomartialarts

i'm not too keen on finger whips.  they rely on a level of accuracy that's pretty rare in the chaos of an actual tussel.

i've practiced kenpo most of my adult life and i absolutely love it.  but there are some pieces of kenpo that seem like a good idea on the mat, with a cooperative partner, that i just don't see working on the street.

finger whips are on that list.

that said, the motions and concepts behind a finger whip are valuable:  relaxed motion hits harder than rigid motion, for example...


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## Brother John

Finger whip to the eyes... the tips of the fingers.
other targets (Neck...etc.) further up the finger, maybe even first knuckle.

Good question...

Welcome to Martial Talk

Your Brother
John


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## pete

sword and hammer? is a finger whip going to cancel that right punch he's winding up?


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## whitedragon_48

I've used finger whips in many altercations at work (Prison). They work very good against "soft" or sensitive targets like ST9 (Vagus Nerve on the side of the neck), the side of the temple, eyes and the groin . It an almost invisible set-up hit that is almost imposible to see coming and opens a very wide door for follow ups. The trick with them is delivery and speed. You must generate a lot of speed so your fingers develope a high tail-end speed needed for a good hit. Hand conditioning helps too but focus on speed and relaxation.


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## Brother John

White dragon makes a good point about the need, the need for speed; and especially the prerequisite of relaxation in order to facilitate such speed.

I understand the concern about the cancelation of the punch, but I do think that a whip that connects to the eye ball will work well.

Your Brother
John


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## phoenix

pete said:


> sword and hammer? is a finger whip going to cancel that right punch he's winding up?


 
Understood, but my question was primarily regarding throwing a finger whip into a quick scenario for discussion of the strike itself, not for discussion of the scenario itself.

Sean


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## phoenix

whitedragon_48 said:


> I've used finger whips in many altercations at work (Prison). They work very good against "soft" or sensitive targets like ST9 (Vagus Nerve on the side of the neck), the side of the temple, eyes and the groin . It an almost invisible set-up hit that is almost imposible to see coming and opens a very wide door for follow ups. The trick with them is delivery and speed. You must generate a lot of speed so your fingers develope a high tail-end speed needed for a good hit. Hand conditioning helps too but focus on speed and relaxation.


 
Whitedragon, thanks...tail end speed is a good way of putting it.  Nice to hear of someone who has used it in a real scenario.  It's one of those shots I would think that I would never use.  It's all about the vocabulary ;-)

Thanks.

Sean


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## phoenix

Brother John said:


> Welcome to Martial Talk
> 
> Your Brother
> John


 
Welcome?  Been here about as long as you...I just don't post much ;-)  Good to see  you around Bro.

Sean


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## pete

phoenix said:


> Understood, but my question was primarily regarding throwing a finger whip into a quick scenario for discussion of the strike itself, not for discussion of the scenario itself.
> 
> Sean


sorry, but... it still doesnt fit. the finger whip doesn't stand on its own, as a checking method it is non-existantant.  the strike assumes the scenario has been built around its use, and there is already a method of control in place. in sword and hammer, the sword is the check, along with the pin and your right leg.

take finger set, where the finger whip is on display. the prior move to executing the whips puts us in a position for a nice wrist lock (low hand palm up on the opponents elbow, upper hand palm down grasping the opponents knife edge side of the hand) the finger whips are in there to either illustrate a strike after controlling your opponent, or even-if he is not locked securely and attempts to escape.  

take locked wing for another example, where the finger whip may be inserted.  youve already secured his right wrist, extended his right leg, and smashed him in the jaw with your left elbow... on the way to the wrap around, the finger whip can be used as further distraction or damage depending on your intent. 

so, yes the whips are in the system, yes they can be inserted or even substituted, but, be careful not to remove the principles that may be associated with the weapons originally desinged for the technique.

pete


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## MJS

phoenix said:


> I have been having a discussion with some friends regarding finger whips (aka basically similar to the Crane Finger Whips found in AK's Finger Set). Let's set up a quick scenario. Take Sword and Hammer, eliminate the initial handsword and make it a Finger Whip to the eyes (so the whip's trajectory is to your flank rather than straight ahead). The rest of the technique can remain the same.
> 
> When executing this finger whip (or one similar), IDEALLY, what part of your hand should make contact with the opponents eyes? And Why?
> 
> Some options:
> a. The very tips of the fingers/fingernail surface
> b. The first knuckle joint down from the fingertips
> c. The longer, flatter 'middle' portion of the finger (as if curling your hands halfway to a fist where the portion of the finger between first and second joint/knuckle are the striking surface)
> d. Other
> 
> I have my own thoughts, but don't want to prejudice my own question just yet.
> 
> To add a bit more spin, does the striking surface you are utilizing for the finger whip vary based on target (eyes vs. nose vs. cheek) or would you use the same striking surface regardless of the target?
> 
> I look forward to your replies!
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Sean


 
Good thread!  I'm more along the lines of option c.  You should get some good results regardless of the target, be it the eyes, nose, face area, etc.  I like to allow myself that extra length on the finger, rather than trying to pinpoint and hope that I make contact with the tip of the finger.  

Mike


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## MJS

pete said:


> sword and hammer? is a finger whip going to cancel that right punch he's winding up?


 
Its early yet, so bear with me on this.  Wouldn't you think that the finger whip to the face is still going to get a reaction?  Maybe I'm just not following what you're saying here, but I'd imagine that a hand, smacking the guy across the face would cancel something.

Mike


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## whitedragon_48

Again, it depends how you use it. To the eyes causes blinding (pun intended) pain. To the side of the neck (ST9) and temple causes momentary disorientation to unconciousness (depending on speed and mass). Me, myself, I follow it by by a quick short outside handsword to the temple or side of neck (depending where the whip landed, i.e., whip to the neck, chop to the temple) followed by another short hammer to the sternum or floating ribs then a side or rising (obscure elbow) if needed. This tech can be done in a second or less and *really* puts 'em down. Its sort of an ambush technique that works best when you see the attack coming, timing and awareness is key here.

The finger whip is not without its merits. But is has to beused properly. Every move in the MAs has its place, we must know where it is or it will not work.


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## mantis

agreed.  finger whips work best in close ranges to get out of lock or choke situation.  Imagine yourself being choked. Then if you apply  downward force to the choker's elbows, his face becomes closer to the back of ur palms. The whip stings and distracts and you're disengaged... for instance, that is!


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## Touch Of Death

mantis said:


> it's probably wont be THAT accurate. It's difficult to say i want to hit them with the nails! because it probably wont happen, not even in slow motion. But usually you want to produce "stinging" sensation which happens with the ending parts of your fingers. fingers and wrists have to be relaxed. what works best with finger whipping or stinging is to bring the opponent's face forward. this will make the gap closer and will surprise the opponent and this is what makes finger whipping most effective.


Practice helps with accuracy. Sing the Cure's "That's Accuracy" to yourself while practicing.
Sean


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## Touch Of Death

pete said:


> sword and hammer? is a finger whip going to cancel that right punch he's winding up?


It should; its the same basic motion as the chop.


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## pete

Touch Of Death said:


> It should; its the same basic motion as the chop.


 no, its actually the opposite motion. a finger whip, just like an actual whip, gets its power from the snap incurred when its direction is changed... therefore, the motion will be traveling away from the attacker at the point of contact.  

the handsword, like and actual sword, gets its power from thrusting or cutting into the target, therefore, the motion will be traveling into the attacker at the point of contact.

one may act to bring actual pull the right punch towards you, while the other will effectively cancel the width and depth dimensions.

the whip MAY act to abort the punch, or MAY cause the punch to be mis-directed, but would argue that it doesn't constitute a dimensional check.

pete.


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## Touch Of Death

pete said:


> no, its actually the opposite motion. a finger whip, just like an actual whip, gets its power from the snap incurred when its direction is changed... therefore, the motion will be traveling away from the attacker at the point of contact.
> 
> the handsword, like and actual sword, gets its power from thrusting or cutting into the target, therefore, the motion will be traveling into the attacker at the point of contact.
> 
> one may act to bring actual pull the right punch towards you, while the other will effectively cancel the width and depth dimensions.
> 
> the whip MAY act to abort the punch, or MAY cause the punch to be mis-directed, but would argue that it doesn't constitute a dimensional check.
> 
> pete.


Thats not true. I don't need to pull my arm back to get a whip. I only need to stop and let my fingers continue toward the target. You are reading too much into the word whip.
Sean


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## Touch Of Death

A chop should have a return motion as well. Either way the untintentional is possible; so even if the chop cancels intention more, you can still get hit with the right. Both strikes should go out and return on the same path.
Sean


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## Ray

pete said:


> just like an actual whip, gets its power from the snap incurred when its direction is changed... therefore, the motion will be traveling away from the attacker at the point of contact.


I have never cracked a whip and used to assume that the cracking of the whip was akin to "snapping a towel." I have since heard that the crack of a whip is not created like snapping a towel (i.e. that there is no sudden reversal of motion in a whip). Rather, it appears that the construction of a whip, larger diameer at the handle and small at the end creates a loop in the whip which accelerates (like a wave in water under certain circumstances) until the end goes faster than the speed of sound. 

http://www.bullwhip.org/faq/forward.mov

I have to believe that the force in finger whips is because of the acceleration of the fingers in the final turning of the hand as the arm reaches extension...that it propels the tips quickly and that the small surface of the finger tips concentrates the force into a small area; which is why finger whips can cut flesh (like the flesh on a cheek).

As for the finger whips not "standing on their own" : In many cases other strikes don't stand on their own. Take the handsword in Delayed Sword - it is prefaced by an inward block and therefore doesn't stand on its own either. You could (you could, not necessarily would) execute an outward extended block with your hand in the shape of a crane and be cocked to execute a finger whip (kind of like shielding hammer or Sword of Destruction). You could execute a hooking crane to pull down an opponents arm and return your own hand as a finger whip. I'm kind of thinking that you could almost pull one of in Triggered Salute after craning the attacker's right arm, but your hand isn't quite facing the right way.


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## bujuts

A whip of the finger can sting the eye, sure.  But, as already stated, what will the accuracy be when the stuff is hitting the ventilation?  Secondly, why load an RPG with a marshmellow?

Salute,

Steven Brown
UKF


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## pete

ok, dont believe me, do it for yourself: the whip section of finger set into a soft target, like a towel hung over a shower rod.  what do you feel as the hand goes from palm-down to palm-up? what happened to the towel?



			
				Ray said:
			
		

> As for the finger whips not "standing on their own" : In many cases other strikes don't stand on their own. Take the handsword in Delayed Sword - it is prefaced by an inward block and therefore doesn't stand on its own either. You could (you could, not necessarily would) execute an outward extended block with your hand in the shape of a crane and be cocked to execute a finger whip (kind of like shielding hammer or Sword of Destruction). You could execute a hooking crane to pull down an opponents arm and return your own hand as a finger whip. I'm kind of thinking that you could almost pull one of in Triggered Salute after craning the attacker's right arm, but your hand isn't quite facing the right way


 I like both of those examples, because the dimensional checks are already in place from the prior moves and the strike may be alterered to match the available target.


> A whip of the finger can sting the eye, sure. But, as already stated, what will the accuracy be when the stuff is hitting the ventilation? Secondly, why load an RPG with a marshmellow?
> 
> Salute,
> 
> Steven Brown
> UKF


 yes!

pete


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## pete

whoops! i meant to say from palm-up to palm-down as it hits the towel...


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## MattJ

> a. The very tips of the fingers/fingernail surface
> b. The first knuckle joint down from the fingertips
> c. The longer, flatter 'middle' portion of the finger


 
All of the above, depending on your orientation to the opponent. Finger whips are certainly not a fight-stopper, but they can be painful and a good distraction technique. I have actually used them in sparring, and had them used against me. Had a student bust me in the mouth with one, and I was quite surprised how painful it was. To the eyes could work well, too.

Not something that I train a lot, but not worthless, either. Try working them in sparring - and wear a mouthguard, LOL.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Greg Ballmeir (sp?) was a Sam Pai Kenpo purple belt I went to high school with in the late 70's/early 80'; didn't have a ton of knowledge at the time, but was an outstanding athlete and one of those darned naturals that puts your hard work to shame with something he just learned.

He got hit in the head with a football on "accident" while getting a drink of water, and promptly started with the behemoth football bully who started it. The footbal player takes off in a dead charge after Greg, to which Greg responds by running away via retreating rear crossovers, while repeatedly (and very quickly) finger whipping the assailant in the nads with each step. Six whips in like, 1.5 seconds. And with each step, the footbal player is getting slower, and lower, and slower and lower, until his forward momentum ends in a pile of slumped over testicular pain on the ground. Never got a hand on Greg (a much smaller dude, by the way, than the steroid junkie he dropped). And Gregs reply did little (aside from advancing to the rear) to address issues of height, width, or depth. A foot maneuver (rear-crossover to the rear) and a finger whip (delivered in the path we usually reserve for back hammerfists).

I thought it was a clever and effective use of the rear finger whip from finger set. Still do.

Dave.


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## Brother John

phoenix said:


> Understood, but my question was primarily regarding throwing a finger whip into a quick scenario for discussion of the strike itself, not for discussion of the scenario itself.
> 
> Sean


I think that THIS is Sean's original intent for the thread.
Anything else is "Off Topic".

Your Brother
John


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## Kenpojujitsu3

bujuts said:


> A whip of the finger can sting the eye, sure. But, as already stated, what will the accuracy be when the stuff is hitting the ventilation? Secondly, *why load an RPG with a marshmellow*?
> 
> Salute,
> 
> Steven Brown
> UKF


 
Priceless.


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## Kenpo1981

Hmmm....recalling each time I have been accidentally poked in the eye, by myself or another, my reaction was always to move away instantly as my hands moved toward my eyes.

I think that is the instinctive reaction a person has to any strike to the eyes. A finger whip, as done in Sword and Hammer, if you are skipping the sword and using a whip, is very fast. I don't believe much accuracy is required. I think if you are coming fast and hard with the strike they will flinch about like I described above and set themselves up for the follow-up groin strike.


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## madeku

think of the whip with a anchored elbow, rather than a full extension. the whip and towel analogy is great. but they are both still whipping motions. one obviously has alot more power.. but either way, it doesnt take much to create the needed effect in this case. its like mr parker's comparison of stabbing someone in the heart with a 4 inch blade vs a 6 inch blade, who will be more dead?.. 

 even if the finger whip doesn't hit or hit the right target, it will still likely cause enough flinch response to leave the groin more open. whos to say you wont hit accidentally the guy in the chest instead of the neck or face with a handsword?


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## MattJ

I have used finger-whips in sparring (not to the eyes, obviously). They don't have much stopping power, but they can sting like hell. I got popped in the mouth by one, and while it didn't really slow me down, it did hurt. 

I imagine they would hurt worse if they hit the eyes. However, I am more of a fan of heavy-duty strikes (palms, punches, elbows), myself.


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