# Technique Discussion: Lone Kimono Left Hand Lapel Grab



## MJS (Oct 27, 2010)

[yt]Q6viFnCBym8[/yt]


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## MJS (Oct 27, 2010)

1. An attacker at 12 o'clock grabs your lapel with their left hand. 

2. Step your left foot to 6 o'clock as you simultaneously pin your attacker's hand with your left hand and cock your right hand at your hip. 

3. Settle into a right neutral bow facing 12 o'clock and utilize the provided torque to execute a right upward forearm strike to your attacker's left elbow joint, causing severe hyper-extension, possibly even a break in the joint. 

4. Immediately circle your arm counterclockwise and convert it into an inward downward strike on top of your attacker's forearm. Complete this strike with your right palm up and your left hand checking high. 

5. Execute a right snapping outward handsword to your attacker's throat. 

6. Cross out towards 7:30.


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## MJS (Oct 27, 2010)

Thought that we could discuss the technique Lone Kimono.  Video clip and written description.  Looking to discuss the tech. in general, any differences, etc, that you may be doing for this tech.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 27, 2010)

I would do everything differently.:mst:
Sean


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## MJS (Oct 27, 2010)

Touch Of Death said:


> I would do everything differently.:mst:
> Sean


 
I'm listening.


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## Tanaka (Oct 27, 2010)

haha, where is the kimono?


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 27, 2010)

MJS said:


> I'm listening.


First of all he is missing the back knuckle to the ribs. That's almost an iniquity. Secondly, you can keep your weapon and strikes all on the center line. Swinging back and forth is a little slow.
Sean


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## MJS (Oct 28, 2010)

Touch Of Death said:


> First of all he is missing the back knuckle to the ribs. That's almost an iniquity. Secondly, you can keep your weapon and strikes all on the center line. Swinging back and forth is a little slow.
> Sean


 
I do the back knuckle strike as well.  Hey, why not, its right there. 

How do you perform this tech?


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## Bill Mattocks (Oct 28, 2010)

This is a confrontation grab.  The opponent is holding you with his weak hand while getting range with his right fist; he's setting you up for the sucker punch, the next best thing (for him) to a rabbit punch.

Since he's holding you with his left on your right, pivot back on your right leg while grabbing his left wrist with your left hand.  If you grab with the palm up, just pull hard.  If you grab with the palm down, apply a sharp twist away from you as you pull down, twisting his arm.  The latter can be hard if he's got a massive wrist and you don't have great grip strength.

Bring your left hand hard to your obi while punching the back of his bicep hard with your right.  This is a rising straight punch that hits the nerve cluster on the back of his arm about tricep level and continues over the top of his bicep from back to front.  It should force his arm to 'roll' forward along with his shoulder almost like you were rubbing his arm to make it roll like a log.  If you don't want to punch his tri/bicep over the top, just twist your body and smash your upraised elbow into the back of his armpit, but make sure you're pushing him down and not up.  The goal is to get him to bow forward away from you, putting his face at about groin level on you, facing away from you.

Stay in tight to his left side/back and put extreme downward pressure on the arm/shoulder.  Finish in whatever manner seems the most fun; slam him face-first into the ground, kick the back of both his legs, or reverse your downward push and pull him over your right hip/leg onto his back.  Or pull your right arm back to the obi, using your elbow to smash his face as you pull back.

In any case, he's never in a position to strike you once you grab his arm and pivot back on your right leg. The only arm he can reach you with is immobilized (his left) and your right is free and he cannot escape it, no matter what you do with it.  The goal is to keep his right hand as far from you as possible, and keep him tied up, with his side/back to you.  He has nothing in this position - no kick, no punch, not even a head butt.

It's like the dumbest thing he could have done to you.

OK, that's not kenpo, but we practice something very similar in my dojo.  Thanks for the comparison; I like yours too!

NOTE: FYI, this is one of the many bunkai we've been taught for the basic middle-body block / lunge punch exercise (chudan uki, seiken tsuki).  The reach over grab with the left of his left arm then crosses center as if it were a middle-body block, and you apply reverse power to lunge punch him in the kidneys (or over the top of his bicep as described above).  It's essentially one of our basic upper-body exercises with a twist on the application.  Sensei makes us come with these on our own all the time.  Turns out that nothing we come up with is 'new', it's all been thought of and tested.  Fun stuff, though.


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## MJS (Oct 30, 2010)

Nice application Bill. 

Sean, looking forward to hearing how you do this move. 

Of course, any other Kenpoist or non Kenpo person is also free to join in as well.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 30, 2010)

Ok... First as I have stated before, you can confine your motion to a single verticle plane. As your opponent pushes, you launch to the rear and into a right neutral bow. As your opponent begins to over extend, you check the grab with a check (not a pin) at the same time, you execute a high left punch (relative to the arm) the rotation of the punch should hyper extend the arm, as you launch foward, allow your right arm to bend to the starting point of reference for a downward Back knuckle to the lower ribs. Return that motion to a hammering starting point of reference (right fist to right shoulder) and execute a strike to the back of the tricept tendon as you position the angle of his arm with your left hand. Continue the motion and execute a chop to the right side of his kneck. You may cross out, or grab some gi after the chop and pull him into a thrusting inward elbow.
Sean


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## jks9199 (Oct 30, 2010)

For another outsider's perspective -- the upward strike than downward strike is redundant, to me, and wastes time.

A similar approach that I might use would be:

1. As the opponent grabs me, secure the grabbing hand with my left hand, while stepping back.

2. Either: a) Use a rising right bar into the arm, driving the joint arm upward, smashing the joint, or b) Use either a cross body block (inward circling block) or right hook to strike the arm and head

3. From version of 2 -- grab the head, and use the hold there to assist in a driving left knee strike

4. Step down and back, pulling the head further down to generate a throw/trip

5. Finish by delivering a heel stomp with the right foot.

But, then, I might do something completely different, too!


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 31, 2010)

Touch Of Death said:


> Ok... First as I have stated before, you can confine your motion to a single verticle plane. As your opponent pushes, you launch to the rear and into a right neutral bow. As your opponent begins to over extend, you check the grab with a check (not a pin) at the same time, you execute a high left punch (relative to the arm) the rotation of the punch should hyper extend the arm, as you launch foward, allow your right arm to bend to the starting point of reference for a downward Back knuckle to the lower ribs. Return that motion to a hammering starting point of reference (right fist to right shoulder) and execute a strike to the back of the tricept tendon as you position the angle of his arm with your left hand. Continue the motion and execute a chop to the right side of his kneck. You may cross out, or grab some gi after the chop and pull him into a thrusting inward elbow.
> Sean


I did neglect to mention all the stance changes and moving up the circle, but the strikes could land to just either side of your center line, wherever that center line may be.
sean


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 31, 2010)

jks9199 said:


> For another outsider's perspective -- the upward strike than downward strike is redundant, to me, and wastes time.
> 
> A similar approach that I might use would be:
> 
> ...


I'ts not like its way up and way down, but that's cool.
Sean


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## Yoshin9 (Nov 3, 2010)

MJS said:


> Of course, any other Kenpoist or non Kenpo person is also free to join in as well.


 
I thought the name was kinda long, it's a defense from shoulder grab in plain English; but I understand the Chinese influence with names in Kenpo.

In Jujutsu you can do as in Kenpo and use all strikes but then there is no control just pain; or you can apply a joint lock (Aikido like) before he throws a punch. My favorite is more Jujutsu or Aikijujutsu like: if the guy's grabbing and punching, is to post (grab his hand using your right hand so it can't go anywhere) and use your left hand to block then strike (shoto or PPCT palm) the side of the neck with the same hand before applying the joint lock. Alternatively you can use a stop hit by striking his face down the centre line in the time it takes for him to do his wide bar room punch, this is somewhat Wing Chun meets Jujutsu [J: post, WC: straight punch/palm to face, J: joint lock].

Bruce Lee would approve of the Kendo way, "When someone grabs you just hit them!". 

I try to look at principles more than style. Here you can strike for maximum damage and speed, or you can go for total control, or you can go for a blend of the two which is what we tend to do in Jujutsu as we teach that a "distraction" must be done before you apply a joint lock. So it's a common attack and you can approach it from a Kenpo/Aikido/Jujutsu/Wing Chun style or flow from one style to the other.


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## MJS (Nov 4, 2010)

jks9199 said:


> For another outsider's perspective -- the upward strike than downward strike is redundant, to me, and wastes time.
> 
> A similar approach that I might use would be:
> 
> ...


 
My interpretation of this is the upward strike is to break or hyper-extend the elbow, the downward strike to a) remove the hand from you and b) draw them into the hit to the throat/neck.  Actually, there is another tech that is taught at my school that omits the initial pin and upward strike.  Right into the inward/downward strike on the arm, hit to the neck and continue with follow ups. 

For me though, I'm fine with doing whatever works.  Unlike some Kenpoists out there, I'm not bound by the Ideal Phase textbook techniques.


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## MJS (Nov 4, 2010)

Touch Of Death said:


> Ok... First as I have stated before, you can confine your motion to a single verticle plane. As your opponent pushes, you launch to the rear and into a right neutral bow. As your opponent begins to over extend, you check the grab with a check (not a pin) at the same time, you execute a high left punch (relative to the arm) the rotation of the punch should hyper extend the arm, as you launch foward, allow your right arm to bend to the starting point of reference for a downward Back knuckle to the lower ribs. Return that motion to a hammering starting point of reference (right fist to right shoulder) and execute a strike to the back of the tricept tendon as you position the angle of his arm with your left hand. Continue the motion and execute a chop to the right side of his kneck. You may cross out, or grab some gi after the chop and pull him into a thrusting inward elbow.
> Sean


 
I like what I'm reading here, but I do have a few questions.   We're stepping back to a RNB and checking/parrying their hand with our right?  What I'm not seeing is how you're getting the hyper extension.


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## MJS (Nov 4, 2010)

Yoshin9 said:


> I thought the name was kinda long, it's a defense from shoulder grab in plain English; but I understand the Chinese influence with names in Kenpo.


 
Parker and Tracy Kenpo all have names for the techs.  LK is the name, the rest is simply the type of attack. 



> In Jujutsu you can do as in Kenpo and use all strikes but then there is no control just pain; or you can apply a joint lock (Aikido like) before he throws a punch. My favorite is more Jujutsu or Aikijujutsu like: if the guy's grabbing and punching, is to post (grab his hand using your right hand so it can't go anywhere) and use your left hand to block then strike (shoto or PPCT palm) the side of the neck with the same hand before applying the joint lock. Alternatively you can use a stop hit by striking his face down the centre line in the time it takes for him to do his wide bar room punch, this is somewhat Wing Chun meets Jujutsu [J: post, WC: straight punch/palm to face, J: joint lock].
> 
> Bruce Lee would approve of the Kendo way, "When someone grabs you just hit them!".
> 
> I try to look at principles more than style. Here you can strike for maximum damage and speed, or you can go for total control, or you can go for a blend of the two which is what we tend to do in Jujutsu as we teach that a "distraction" must be done before you apply a joint lock. So it's a common attack and you can approach it from a Kenpo/Aikido/Jujutsu/Wing Chun style or flow from one style to the other.


 
Personally, if someone is going to give me a gift, ie: in this case, their hand grabbing me, why not take advantage of it, and punish them?   I mean, you do something they probably wont expect...grab onto their hand, marry it to your chest, and attack them.   So many things we can do from here.


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## Touch Of Death (Nov 5, 2010)

MJS said:


> I like what I'm reading here, but I do have a few questions.  We're stepping back to a RNB and checking/parrying their hand with our right? What I'm not seeing is how you're getting the hyper extension.


As you launch to the rear, your left hand is slap checking his pushing hand to the right shoulder as you secure the hand with your lower three fingers. All of this should overextend the pushing hand. 
From the hip, lift a heel palm into the over exended elbow joint...


Is that more clear?


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## MJS (Nov 5, 2010)

Touch Of Death said:


> As you launch to the rear, your left hand is slap checking his pushing hand to the right shoulder as you secure the hand with your lower three fingers. All of this should overextend the pushing hand.
> From the hip, lift a heel palm into the over exended elbow joint...
> 
> 
> Is that more clear?


 
Like crystal.   Thanks for clarifying that Sean.


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## MJS (Nov 8, 2010)

Any other variations out there that people do?  Anything that you'd change, do differently, etc?


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## Touch Of Death (Nov 8, 2010)

MJS said:


> Any other variations out there that people do? Anything that you'd change, do differently, etc?


I would just like to point out that I spaced what tech we were talking about on my last post. Instead of a lifting heel palm, you are punching off the hip to get the hyperextension. Sorry.
Sean


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## Yoshin9 (Nov 26, 2010)

MJS said:


> Personally, if someone is going to give me a gift, ie: in this case, their hand grabbing me, why not take advantage of it, and punish them?  I mean, you do something they probably wont expect...grab onto their hand, marry it to your chest, and attack them.  So many things we can do from here.


 
That is why my teacher says, "If someone grabs you say thank you!" because you know right where that hand it. Grabbing the hand that is grabbing you is what we call posting, to pin it in place so it is still there after you hit them, then it's there for joint locks.

A slight variation if you have time for it is the hands up surrender position, then smash your arm down at the inside elbow which causes him to lean in forcefully meeting the punch that you sent out at the same time you smashed down on the inside of the elbow. Think Wing Chun short vertical fist punch here.


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## TigerCraneGuy (Dec 7, 2010)

Depends whether it's a) a stiff-arm grab cum shove to pave the way for something coming fast off the right hand; b) a grab and posture; or c) a grab and pull with something coming off said right hand!

Imo, Lone Kimono works best in the first two scenarios. A grab and shove (especially by a bigger guy) would almost force you to drop back into a RNB (Purposeful Compliance). Likewise, a grab and posture can easily be countered with the Ideal Phase tech.

With a grab and pull, however, I would not bother with Lone Kimono as it is written. Hard to straighten a bent arm; and worse yet, in that quarter-beat of time while you're fiddling with said bent arm, you might just get clocked by the guy's right arm.

Better to drop forward (still Purposeful Compliance) and launch a left upward elbow (right hand pinning the grabbing arm) which doubles as a shield against the incoming right arm and maybe followup with a downward heel-palm claw ala Thrusting Wedge; and then a clinch with a left knee strike etc etc...

As always, the solution should be 'contextual', the way I read it...


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## TigerCraneGuy (Dec 7, 2010)

Was mucking around with the idea of defenses against a left-hand lapel grab last night; and here are more idle thoughts:

1) Against a left hand stiff-arm grab and shove; your right leg leads - Counter with Lone Kimono (Purposeful Compliance by dropping into RNB is natural due to the momentum of the attack).

2) Against a left-hand stiff-arm grab and posture; your right leg leads - Counter with Lone Kimono or Mace of Aggression; depending on whether you wish to create or deny space.

3) Against a left hand stiff-arm grab and retract; your right leg leads - Counter with Mace of Aggression (Why fight the pull and lose a half to quarter beat of reaction time? Move into the attacker's space and drop him!).

4) Against a left hand stiff-arm grab and shove; your left leg leads - If the grab and shove spins you counterclockwise due to your left leg being forward, how about countering with the movement pattern from Parting Wings? Shove comes in; you drop back into a LNB; your left hand strikes to the eyes and shields against the attacker's right arm; your right arm slams the grabbing hand away with an extended outward block; you then follow up with the rest of ther sequence. I think it would work.

2) Against a left-hand stiff-arm grab and posture; your left leg leads - You can still counter with Parting Wings; but instead of dropping back (Create space), you might wish to push drag forward into a LNB (Deny space). Either launch forward or drop back depending on whether you wish to create or deny space.

3) Against a left hand stiff-arm grab and retract; your left leg leads - Parting Wings with a push drag forward is one option; but how about Shield and Mace? Right VOB strikes the grabbing arm away; left fist breaks the ribs simultaneously (substitute rib punch with a half-fist to the throat so as to shield against the right hand?); you follow up with the rest of the sequence.

How about applying the same reasoning with Delayed Sword? Depending on whether it's a push or a pull and whether your right or left leg is leading, you might end up defending with other techs such as:

1) Mace of Aggression; Triggered Salute; Thrusting Wedge etc (Pulling; your right leg leads);

2) Attacking Mace (Shoving; your left leg leads)

3) Flashing Mace, Flashing Wings; Parting Wings; Shield and Mace etc (Pulling; your left leg leads)

Endless possibilities depending on context!

Just ideas; nothing more... and stuff to play with when I get back home from my secondment!


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## K-man (Dec 7, 2010)

There are several variations of the techniques that have been described here and we train some of them to explain moves in various kata. Each would be very effective with a compliant partner but in an high energy andrenalised fight situation these techniques may be too complicated. Not much mention has been made of the punch that will follow the grab. I'll guarantee that if I grab your lapel I will hit you in the face or throat before you touch my arm. We have pressure tested this in our dojo with headguards and the person doing the wrist grab gets hit 100% of the time and the person attacking the elbow about 80%, and these guys know what's coming. These aren't good odds so unless you're one of the fastest guys around it's pretty high risk. Remember, in the dojo you know what is about to happen, on the street you don't and therefore you have less time to respond.

My preferred response is to forget the hand grabbing the lapel. It is no threat.The 'flinch response', that is natural defence, would bring your hands up to protect against the punch, if it were to arrive, as you move straight in to attack the head. Under pressure, good guy 100%, bad guy zero.

Good thread! :asian:


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 7, 2010)

K-man said:


> There are several variations of the techniques that have been described here and we train some of them to explain moves in various kata. Each would be very effective with a compliant partner but in an high energy andrenalised fight situation these techniques may be too complicated. Not much mention has been made of the punch that will follow the grab. I'll guarantee that if I grab your lapel I will hit you in the face or throat before you touch my arm. We have pressure tested this in our dojo with headguards and the person doing the wrist grab gets hit 100% of the time and the person attacking the elbow about 80%, and these guys know what's coming. These aren't good odds so unless you're one of the fastest guys around it's pretty high risk. Remember, in the dojo you know what is about to happen, on the street you don't and therefore you have less time to respond.
> 
> My preferred response is to forget the hand grabbing the lapel. It is no threat.The 'flinch response', that is natural defence, would bring your hands up to protect against the punch, if it were to arrive, as you move straight in to attack the head. Under pressure, good guy 100%, bad guy zero.
> 
> Good thread! :asian:


Launching back will lesson the force of that punch; however, Lone Kimono happens before you can pull him into a punch. The fact my left hand would be checking, I may just block or parry that punch on the way.
Sean


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## TigerCraneGuy (Dec 7, 2010)

K-man said:


> There are several variations of the techniques that have been described here and we train some of them to explain moves in various kata. Each would be very effective with a compliant partner but in an high energy andrenalised fight situation these techniques may be too complicated. Not much mention has been made of the punch that will follow the grab. I'll guarantee that if I grab your lapel I will hit you in the face or throat before you touch my arm. We have pressure tested this in our dojo with headguards and the person doing the wrist grab gets hit 100% of the time and the person attacking the elbow about 80%, and these guys know what's coming. These aren't good odds so unless you're one of the fastest guys around it's pretty high risk. Remember, in the dojo you know what is about to happen, on the street you don't and therefore you have less time to respond.
> 
> My preferred response is to forget the hand grabbing the lapel. It is no threat.The 'flinch response', that is natural defence, would bring your hands up to protect against the punch, if it were to arrive, as you move straight in to attack the head. Under pressure, good guy 100%, bad guy zero.
> 
> Good thread! :asian:


 
That's why I believe it's important to understand what specifically we're defending against. Is it a lapel grab with the left hand pulling you into an attack, in which case because you're dragged forward and off-balance, you lose a beat of time in trying to drop back into your right neutral bow, and probably end up getting clanged by the right punch? Or is it a stiff-arm grab with the intent of shoving you back and off-balance, your arms thrown wide open, so that the attacker can brain you with his incoming right punch?

Lone Kimono works best in the second situation as the attacker's momentum almost forces you to drop back into the right neutral bow, in which case, you're not focusing on the grabbing arm per se, but using it as a leverage point to execute a contact manipulation attack against your attacker, thereby canceling his width and depth.

Were you to counter with Lone Kimono in the event of a grab and pull however, I agree that you would very likely get clanged.

Think about it in terms of beats of timing:

Against a grab and shove
Beat 1 -  Attacker stiff-arms you

Beat 2 - The punch begins to come in off his right hand; you purposefully comply, going with the momentum, dropping back into your RNB and simultaneously pinning and striking the the grabbing arm

Beat 3 - He arches back and turns counterclockwise, thus aborting the punch attempt

Beat 4 - You follow up with the rest of the sequence (strike the arm diagonally downwards to bring his upper body low; handsword to the throat)

But...

Against a grab and pull
Beat 1 -  Attacker pulls you in with the grab

Beat 2 - The punch begins to come in off his right hand; You lurch forward

Beat 3 - The punch connects as you are in the process of dropping back into your RNB, unless you get lucky and he's slow off the mark; or you're so freakishly fast that the punch does not land before you successfully drop into your RNB

Beat 4 - If you manage to avoid the punch or roll with the impact, your strike to the arm has its desired effect and the attacker arches back and turns counterclockwise

Beat 5 - You follow up with the rest of the sequence (strike the arm diagonally downwards to bring his upper body low; handsword to the throat)

Just my thoughts on the technique...


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## K-man (Dec 8, 2010)

If you look carefully at the video it shows a complying partner with no intention of striking. Now, if this was the case of someone posturing then the techniques shown would work like a charm. And, I don't have a problem with the technical aspects of the moves demonstrated. They flow and there is no doubt they would be effective. I just worry that you won't have time to deal with the grabbing hand and avoid the incoming strike. I would prefer to be way ahead of the game and deal with the grabbing hand when safe to do so.
It's an unfortunate aspect of 'sport' karate that we have the impression that we will have space or distance, and distance equals time. If someone is in your face and then makes a move you will have no time to worry about the arm no matter which way it's trying to go. 
Now if I was quick enough to see what was happening I would be moving diagonally to the right front, brushing outside the left elbow with my left arm as my arm rises, striking with the right hand to the attacker's head. :asian:


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