# Harder than it sounds



## Xue Sheng (Jul 15, 2006)

I just came back from a Qigong class and I am not going to delve deep into what or all that was done, but there is one thing that was taught from a Taoist sitting mediation that I found to be rather difficult to do, even though it sounds like the simplest thing in the world. 

With your eyes open, focus on a point 6 feet in front of you 

Now that sounds simple, but there is nothing there to focus on but air. 

Just thought I would through that out there.


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## Carol (Jul 15, 2006)

That sounds excruciatingly difficult.

How are you supposed to focus on a point 6 feet in front of you when you have no point of refernce to show where "a point 6 feet in front of you is" ?


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## tshadowchaser (Jul 15, 2006)

interesting idea 
I'll try it tomorow when I get outside and then at my school 
Background might make a big difference in the ability to do this for beginners


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## Martial Tucker (Jul 15, 2006)

Could they have meant: six feet in front of you, _on the floor_?

Obviously, if you're staring straight ahead into air/space, six feet looks the same as six miles.


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## BlackCatBonz (Jul 15, 2006)

Martial Tucker said:
			
		

> Could they have meant: six feet in front of you, _on the floor_?
> 
> Obviously, if you're staring straight ahead into air/space, six feet looks the same as six miles.


 
that's kind of the point, as it was explained to me one time.


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## Martial Tucker (Jul 15, 2006)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> that's kind of the point, as it was explained to me one time.



So, are you saying that you are supposed to essentially imagine a point six feet directly in front of you in space? I guess that doesn't seem that hard. You could envision a golf ball, or other small object with which you have a mental "size reference", as it would look if it were floating 6 feet directly in front of you. But of course the hard part would be keeping a focus on the imaginary point, which I would guess is the point of the exercise.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 16, 2006)

Martial Tucker said:
			
		

> So, are you saying that you are supposed to essentially imagine a point six feet directly in front of you in space? I guess that doesn't seem that hard. You could envision a golf ball, or other small object with which you have a mental "size reference", as it would look if it were floating 6 feet directly in front of you. But of course the hard part would be keeping a focus on the imaginary point, which I would guess is the point of the exercise.


 
Envision a point 6 feet in front of you, directly in front of you, not on the floor. 

 After doing that for awhile 3 to 5, minutes as a beginner, which I am) you look at a point 6 feet in front of you at a 30 degree angle and then a 45 degree angle and then the floor between your feet, Do not move your head only your eyes.

You can try and focus on any thing you wish to imagine, but that would defeat the purpose of trying to calm the mind.

I ended up with a slightly dizzy feeling and seeing what looked like an illuminates capital 'O', and I do not know why. Couldn't honestly tell you if it was 6, 6 inches or 16 feet in front of me but I feel it was closer to 6 feet. I can say I was happy to look at the floor. 

This was only part of a 30-minute exercise


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 16, 2006)

Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> That sounds excruciatingly difficult.


 
It was



			
				Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> How are you supposed to focus on a point 6 feet in front of you when you have no point of refernce to show where "a point 6 feet in front of you is" ?


 
I am generally a good judge of distance (to many surveying classes, as fillers, in college), so as soon as he said focus on a point 6 feet in front of you I immediately looked at the floor and found a point 6 feet in front of me and then tried to maintain that distance as I looked in front of me. Not sure I succeeded, but I think I was able to maintain that point for at least part of the training. It was difficult to maintain that point and move it down though. 

This is going to take a lot of time.


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## BlackCatBonz (Jul 16, 2006)

an exercise i was taught was breath counting.
while in seiza, you breathe deep and slow and recognize the movements of respiration.
the abdomen at rest, the rising of the abdomen, the apex, falling of the abdomen, and finally the abdomen at rest.
while doing this, you have to be aware of your breath passing through your nose, past the larynx, and into the lungs; and then the reverse upon exhalation.
No other thoughts should enter your mind during this time, or the counting starts over.
It was a real chore to get through 3 breaths for awhile.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 16, 2006)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> an exercise i was taught was breath counting.
> while in seiza, you breathe deep and slow and recognize the movements of respiration.
> the abdomen at rest, the rising of the abdomen, the apex, falling of the abdomen, and finally the abdomen at rest.
> while doing this, you have to be aware of your breath passing through your nose, past the larynx, and into the lungs; and then the reverse upon exhalation.
> ...


 
I use to do a sitting Qigong that was similar and it was not easy either. But this focusing on an imaginary point in space 6 feet in front of you stuff is quite taxing.

But the counting breaths was also hard, 1, 2, 3... did I leave the coffee pot on....DAMN! Ok calm the mind... 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 WOW! I got to 5...DAMN another thought (repeat over and over again)...you know what I am talking about. 

But if you achieve it time can go by and before you know it 30 or more minutes have passed.


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## BlackCatBonz (Jul 16, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> I use to do a sitting Qigong that was similar and it was not easy either. But this focusing on an imaginary point in space 6 feet in front of you stuff is quite taxing.
> 
> *But the counting breaths was also hard, 1, 2, 3... did I leave the coffee pot on....DAMN! Ok calm the mind... 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 WOW! I got to 5...DAMN another thought (repeat over and over again)...you know what I am talking about. *
> 
> But if you achieve it time can go by and before you know it 30 or more minutes have passed.


 
yep, that is about right....lol


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## Explorer (Jul 17, 2006)

It's a great exercise!  My guess is the illuminated capital "O" was your collapsing field of vision (same as tunnel vision in adrenal stress response but with out the stress).

Sitting, standing, laying down ... all postures provide something a little different.

Do they have you visualising colors in these still exercises?


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## Carol (Jul 17, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> It was
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Do you think you will realize a benefit?  I meditate myself but personally I find some forms of meditation painful and stressful.  I don't think that would be something I could do without a paradoxical reaction.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 17, 2006)

Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> Do you think you will realize a benefit? I meditate myself but personally I find some forms of meditation painful and stressful. I don't think that would be something I could do without a paradoxical reaction.


 
I am not sure if I will realize a benefit, if I achieve it I imagine it will certainly teach me laser focus and calm my mind. But I am an 8 and 12 pieces of brocade and standing meditation in 7 positions king of guy.

Staring at imaginary points is great if you are a Taoist with all the time in the world, but I do know if I have that type of time. What makes me nervous is that this is supposedly for beginners. 

This was a class with the old Taoist's (the actual teacher's) senior student to see where I was, apparently my instincts are good so next I go to the Taoist. We will see what I have to do next.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 17, 2006)

Explorer said:
			
		

> It's a great exercise! My guess is the illuminated capital "O" was your collapsing field of vision (same as tunnel vision in adrenal stress response but with out the stress).
> 
> Sitting, standing, laying down ... all postures provide something a little different.
> 
> Do they have you visualising colors in these still exercises?


 
Nope, no colors just stare at a point 6 feet in front if you. 

It was called "Taoist Meditation to Calm the Mind"


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## Kensai (Jul 18, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> I just came back from a Qigong class and I am not going to delve deep into what or all that was done, but there is one thing that was taught from a Taoist sitting mediation that I found to be rather difficult to do, even though it sounds like the simplest thing in the world.
> 
> With your eyes open, focus on a point 6 feet in front of you
> 
> ...



Easy or difficult, ready or not, too long in terms of time (or not), this sounds very interesting. I've often considered doing Qigong, but with Aikido and Wing Chun, time is of a premium. Let us know what happens next though please. :asian:


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## CuongNhuka (Jul 18, 2006)

The major point is to fortify your mind by focusing on that which is not there. It seem's weird, but it develops some serious focus and concentration. And if you do it for a while and are not used to it, you might feel light headed. Because you focus on one poit for so long, it derects most of your blood flow to your eyes and the part of your brain that processes visual info. So there is slighty less blood to the rest of your brain, and you feel slightly light headed, an uncomfortable sensation in your eyes is also common. 
Remember most of this is partly from research and partly form my best geuss. So take it with a grain of salt.


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 18, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> I just came back from a Qigong class and I am not going to delve deep into what or all that was done, but there is one thing that was taught from a Taoist sitting mediation that I found to be rather difficult to do, even though it sounds like the simplest thing in the world.
> 
> With your eyes open, focus on a point 6 feet in front of you
> 
> ...




I relax my eyes and it looks like I am staring off into space. Although I can see the protien floating over my iris as a fuzzy, and then I can concentrate on the protien and bring it in to being sharper and then back out to being fuzzy, while still relaxing the mind and the body and also being aware of what is around you.  Or at least that is how I approach it. 

Good Luck


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 18, 2006)

Kensai said:
			
		

> Easy or difficult, ready or not, too long in terms of time (or not), this sounds very interesting. I've often considered doing Qigong, but with Aikido and Wing Chun, time is of a premium. Let us know what happens next though please. :asian:


 
I will keep you posted, I do not meet with the Sifu until next month, DAMN my schedule... This work thing is cutting into my training way too much


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 18, 2006)

CuongNhuka said:
			
		

> The major point is to fortify your mind by focusing on that which is not there. It seem's weird, but it develops some serious focus and concentration. And if you do it for a while and are not used to it, you might feel light headed. Because you focus on one poit for so long, it derects most of your blood flow to your eyes and the part of your brain that processes visual info. So there is slighty less blood to the rest of your brain, and you feel slightly light headed, an uncomfortable sensation in your eyes is also common.
> Remember most of this is partly from research and partly form my best geuss. So take it with a grain of salt.


 
Thank you



			
				Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> I relax my eyes and it looks like I am staring off into space. Although I can see the protien floating over my iris as a fuzzy, and then I can concentrate on the protien and bring it in to being sharper and then back out to being fuzzy, while still relaxing the mind and the body and also being aware of what is around you.  Or at least that is how I approach it.
> 
> Good Luck


 
I see those little protein guys all the time, except when I do this staring at imaginary point stuff. I did not realize that before now. Thanks



I use to practice and train Qigong several years ago but stop do to circumstances beyond my control. However I never did this type of stuff before, it is interesting to work with. I am trying to fit it in before work (along with everything else). If this keeps up I will have to get up 2 hours before I go to bed just to fit everything in.


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## Kensai (Sep 8, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:


> Thank you
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

How's this going XS, have you carried on practicing QG?


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 8, 2006)

Kensai said:


> How's this going XS, have you carried on practicing QG?


 
This practice I stopped because of my wife's concerns. I was actually beginning to get the hang of it but I gave in to her greater experience and training on this matter.

She is an OMD and a TCM doc from Beijing hospital and was very concerned that this practice without a teacher available to me every day (once a month was not nearly enough) could cause serious problems, particularly if there was a Qi blockage somewhere. She has seen a few of these cases in China and they are somewhat sever.  As I have said many times before; qigong training at higher levels without a teacher can be dangerous and she proves to me this was the case here, after a couple of weeks of serious discussion and argument I had to agree with her. 

I now only do the Baduanjin (8 pieces of brocade) and Chen Taijiquan Chansigong (Silk reeling). I may return to the Shi Er Duan Jin (12 pieces of Brocade) I learned from my Yang Sifu at some point but the Qigong I was doing that was the reason I started this post I have stopped because it was extremely upsetting to my wife.

Thanks for asking


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## Kensai (Sep 8, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:


> This practice I stopped because of my wife's concerns. I was actually beginning to get the hang of it but I gave in to her greater experience and training on this matter.
> 
> She is an OMD and a TCM doc from Beijing hospital and was very concerned that this practice *without a teacher available to me every day (once a month was not nearly enough) could cause serious problems, particularly if there was a Qi blockage somewhere*. She has seen a few of these cases in China and they are somewhat sever. As I have said many times before; qigong training at higher levels without a teacher can be dangerous and she proves to me this was the case here, after a couple of weeks of serious discussion and argument I had to agree with her.
> 
> ...


 
Yeah, I've heard this too, which is why I stopped doing it, and will just go for Tai chi. In fact, our local herbalist advised me against doing it.


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## DavidCC (Sep 8, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:


> This practice I stopped because of my wife's concerns. I was actually beginning to get the hang of it but I gave in to her greater experience and training on this matter.
> 
> She is an OMD and a TCM doc from Beijing hospital and was very concerned that this practice without a teacher available to me every day (once a month was not nearly enough) could cause serious problems, particularly if there was a Qi blockage somewhere. She has seen a few of these cases in China and they are somewhat sever. As I have said many times before; qigong training at higher levels without a teacher can be dangerous and she proves to me this was the case here, after a couple of weeks of serious discussion and argument I had to agree with her.
> 
> ...


 
I have experienced some of that which is why I found a teacher.

But I have to ask, couldn't she clear your blockages and monitored your health being an ODM and having studied TCM so much?


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 8, 2006)

DavidCC said:


> I have experienced some of that which is why I found a teacher.
> 
> But I have to ask, couldn't she clear your blockages and monitored your health being an ODM and having studied TCM so much?


 
She probably could, which was part of my argument.

But hers was; If you have a skilled teacher he/she is there to help you along the way and if you start to feel something isnt right or have questions they can tell you what to do and help you right then and there. They are also likely to see the symptoms before they actually show up or in the very early stages, possibly before I see it, should a problem arise.

The TCM side is trained in basic Qigong, Acupuncture, Tui na and Herbology and from there, like western doctors, they specialize. A general practitioner knows about neurology but you go to a neurologist if you have neurological problem kind of thing. And as a side note many qigong problems tend to end up neurological or psychological. And the Chinese are not big on psychology in China they have little use for it from what I can see. They solve psychological issues mainly on the TCM side. 

Her specialties are acupuncture/acupressure (Tui na) followed by herbology she has a very good understanding of qi and qigong and has training in it but she does not practice it and in China and would defer to a specialist of qigong or a qigong Sifu. And she was incredibly worried, had broken out all her Qigong books from college and after much discussion I decided to stop. If we were in Beijing it would not have been as big an issue to her other than the following point.

This point of hers I very much agree with. There is no reason to practice multiple forms of Qigong. It takes a long time to develop one to high levels why study many? I have a lot of training in Baduanjin from 3 different Sifus, and Shi Er Duan Jin from my Yang Sifu as well as post training and Chansigong is back as part of my Chen Taijiquan training and that to her is to many and I kind of agree. In reality I am probably going to do, and only have time for, the Baduanjin and Chansigong. I have other qigong training from another Sifu as well but I have not practiced that in a long time, it was similar to the Taoist sitting mediation I started that was the focus of this post just without the staring and an invisible point in space part. And to top this off her mother agreed with her and her mom is a long time qigong person, mainly buddhist stuff, 2 different forms and only 2 forms actually for over 40 years.

I am going to stay with the Baduanjin (standing and sitting) and the Chen style Chansigong and between those Chen Taiji training and now the return of Sanshou training I have more than enough. 

In Beijing there a Qigong masters that just study the animal forms or just Taoist or Buddhist types of Qigong their entire, very long, life and that is it. But there are others that study more too. Some know several very well. Much the same as you generally find a Taiji master that only does taiji and has for his entire life but every now and then you find a CMA master that does Taiji, Xingyi and Bagua (See Sun Lutang). 

Bottom-line my focus is on Chinese martial arts and qigong is part of that and I think it is best for my wife my kids and myself if I focus on qigong as part of that and not separate from that as the Taoist sitting mediation was doing.


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## DMartialArtist (Jan 3, 2007)

I think why he had you do that is because if your mind if foucsed and clear you can see beyond what you normally see and see with eyes unclouded i know its sounds confusing but if you figure out the meaning of what i'm sayign it'll help you in the long run


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## Xue Sheng (May 25, 2007)

:erg: uh oh... I'm starting this training again. :EG:


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## Nobody (May 25, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> Envision a point 6 feet in front of you, directly in front of you, not on the floor.
> 
> After doing that for awhile 3 to 5, minutes as a beginner, which I am) you look at a point 6 feet in front of you at a 30 degree angle and then a 45 degree angle and then the floor between your feet, Do not move your head only your eyes.
> 
> ...


 
Yea, i was taught this to by a OMD he would say at the end of the eye focus at 6 feet, you should refocus the eye in an out(the fuzzy focus) about nine time an then cover your eyes for a bit to let them return to normal.  In an out means there is an inward focus that become fuzzy an there is focusing out ward that become fuzzy.  This is good to redevelop the eye muscle control in general for the eyes health.  I have always believed after having studied with the person that one could possible reverse any eye problems through the use of slowly practicing the focus an refocus exercise that comes with the eye qigong.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (May 25, 2007)

> With your eyes open, focus on a point 6 feet in front of you


 I was never taught specifically to focus 6 feet in front of me I was taught other staring technqiues similar to it.
The idea behind this exercise as I was taught is to focus the mind until the mind is calm which will result in the breath being what is known as real breathing or immortal breathing(mind you there are many other methods to calm the mind and regulate the breath) The roation of the eyes is a common practice in Taoist alchemy. It is used for different things usually for gathering energy since you perform it with other methods and certain things are to be done before during and after. it also is a great exercise for strengthening the eyes as well.
I am sure the teacher can clarfiy the exercises better. Things like that are better transmitted teacher to student. I personally would not have my student practice that exercise on their first day of Qigong. But each teacher has their own way of teaching and each student is at different levels and paces of learning. Have fun!


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## Xue Sheng (May 25, 2007)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> . I personally would not have my student practice that exercise on their first day of Qigong. But each teacher has their own way of teaching and each student is at different levels and paces of learning. Have fun!


 
It wasn't my first day of qigong; I had been doing qigong for years prior. It was my first day of qigong with that teacher. 

And it is Taoist in origin.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (May 25, 2007)

I apologize I meant it as first day with a new teacher or different system or style. Again it is an advance practice in Taoist Alchemy well Novice
Charles Luk has some writings considering more on the ideas behind the eyes. Remain well


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## Xue Sheng (May 25, 2007)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> I apologize I meant it as first day with a new teacher or different system or style. Again it is an advance practice in Taoist Alchemy well Novice
> Charles Luk has some writings considering more on the ideas behind the eyes. Remain well


 
Actually I should be the one apologizing.

I was having a bad day and I let it influence my response.

It might help if I explain the situation; I will try and keep it short.

The person I went to train with was a teacher in his own right but also a senior student of an old Chinese Taoist I was hoping to train with. I was there, at least in part, for evaluation. We started with things I knew, Ba duan Jin, crane from the 5 animals and a few other minor qigong exercises. Then we moved to the Qigong I was discussing here and after that was Brain Taoyin. 

I was told my instincts were very good and after that his teacher gave me permission to train with him. I meant his teacher but we did not really get along well so I decided to gracefully bow out. His teacher was highly offended apparently, but I did not hear this form the person I originally trained with in reference to this post I heard it from a friend of mine that also trains with this Taoist. I also had the added pressure from my wife to stop. 

The person I trained with briefly has also trained in Tibet and India and he is very good. I am contacting him to see if he knows a certain type of Qigong I am looking to train. If he does I will likely go back and train with him.

I do not believe it is necessary to collect and train a lot of different types of qigong, unless of course you are completely focused on training qigong or a teacher of it. My main focus is Taiji and I enjoy qigong. I will happily do Ba Daun Jin and the other type I am looking for and forget the rest, except for a couple of simple Taoist forms that are great for relaxation and clearing the mind.


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## Steel Tiger (May 27, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> This practice I stopped because of my wife's concerns. I was actually beginning to get the hang of it but I gave in to her greater experience and training on this matter.
> 
> She is an OMD and a TCM doc from Beijing hospital and was very concerned that this practice without a teacher available to me every day (once a month was not nearly enough) could cause serious problems, particularly if there was a Qi blockage somewhere. She has seen a few of these cases in China and they are somewhat sever. As I have said many times before; qigong training at higher levels without a teacher can be dangerous and she proves to me this was the case here, after a couple of weeks of serious discussion and argument I had to agree with her.
> 
> ...


 
My feeling is that your wife is right.  I have only done this type of qigong once and it was a very strange experience.  Basically I seemed to have zone out and lost about 40 minutes (the length of the lesson).  I found it very peculiar.  A friend of mine, who was doing the same class as me also found it difficult.  Everytime he sought to focus his vision and attention he saw the gopher from Caddyshack which completely threw off his concentration.

Personally, what your doing seems enoughand it won't upset the missus.


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## Xue Sheng (May 27, 2007)

Steel Tiger said:


> Personally, what your doing seems enoughand it won't upset the missus.


 
You're probably right.

As someone once said, the goal should simply be to simplify.


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## Nebuchadnezzar (May 27, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> I just came back from a Qigong class and I am not going to delve deep into what or all that was done, but there is one thing that was taught from a Taoist sitting mediation that I found to be rather difficult to do, even though it sounds like the simplest thing in the world.
> 
> With your eyes open, focus on a point 6 feet in front of you
> 
> ...


 
Good Luck :uhyeah:


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## Callandor (May 27, 2007)

Maybe, it would help if you first imagine a spherical object (like a golf ball as has been suggested earlier) 1 foot away from you. Slowly move it another foot. Then another. Finally, double the distance (total of six feet). I tried it, and it's hard. At least, it's a little less difficult.


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