# Questioning your beliefs in the ma's.



## bluenosekenpo (Jun 7, 2004)

About 5 months ago some things happened in my life that made me seriously question what i was doing and what i wanted from the martial arts. i started a journey seeking the _truth_. i decided to be completely open to ideas and concepts. to that end, i bought various tapes of different styles from different masters. the following three, are the ones that profoundly changed my attitudes, and the way i am learning the martial arts. this would not have been possible without video tapes and the internet, yes i can remember life without them both. to me these are must haves for your(my) developement, they have changed my life, (corney but true)

1) Larry Tatum-When Kenpo Stikes, demonstrates the true depth and meaning of Kenpo
2) Paul Vunak-An excellent intro to JKD and the FMA's, from what i've seen probably the fastest and most dangerous man alive. 
3) Dog Brothers-you just have to see it.

Keep in mind i had a judo/wrestling/tracys kenpo background.What tapes, instructors or situations have made the most profound chage for you? regards. :asian:


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## MJS (Jun 7, 2004)

bluenosekenpo said:
			
		

> About 5 months ago some things happened in my life that made me seriously question what i was doing and what i wanted from the martial arts. i started a journey seeking the _truth_. i decided to be completely open to ideas and concepts. to that end, i bought various tapes of different styles from different masters. the following three, are the ones that profoundly changed my attitudes, and the way i am learning the martial arts. this would not have been possible without video tapes and the internet, yes i can remember life without them both. to me these are must haves for your(my) developement, they have changed my life, (corney but true)



I wouldnt say that its corney at all.  In fact, if at any time in your training, you have a positive exp. from someone else, that IMO, is a great learning step!!!  There is so much to learn from others and its a shame that some people dont see that.



> 1) Larry Tatum-When Kenpo Stikes, demonstrates the true depth and meaning of Kenpo



I've seen a few of his tapes.  The man definately knows Kenpo!



> 2) Paul Vunak-An excellent intro to JKD and the FMA's, from what i've seen probably the fastest and most dangerous man alive.



Paul is awesome!!!  Definately separates fact from fiction.



> 3) Dog Brothers-you just have to see it.



Those guys have some serious b*** to do what they do.  It takes alot to stickfight full contact with very little gear on.  An eye opener to whats gonna work and whats not gonna work in a stickfight.

Mike


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## Flatlander (Jun 7, 2004)

where do I get this "Dog Brothers" video?  Can you tell me more about it?


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## bluenosekenpo (Jun 7, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> I wouldnt say that its corney at all.  In fact, if at any time in your training, you have a positive exp. from someone else, that IMO, is a great learning step!!!  There is so much to learn from others and its a shame that some people dont see that.
> 
> Mike



hi mike, obviously i've got way too much time on my hands to reply this quickly but what made a profound difference to *you*. i'm interested, and open to any and all input. regards :asian: .


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## bluenosekenpo (Jun 7, 2004)

flatlander said:
			
		

> where do I get this "Dog Brothers" video?  Can you tell me more about it?


hi f, here's the link

http://dogbrothers.com/

check out the media clips.


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## MJS (Jun 7, 2004)

bluenosekenpo said:
			
		

> hi mike, obviously i've got way too much time on my hands to reply this quickly but what made a profound difference to *you*. i'm interested, and open to any and all input. regards :asian: .



I've been grappling and doing the FMA for a while, so naturally, anything related to the subject is going to peak my interest.  As for the BJJ....never really knew much about it until the UFC.  It was around that time that I was fortunate enough to find someone in my area that had some grappling experience.  The Kenpo....Larry Tatum spent quite a bit on time with Parker, and obviously it shows.  Check out the TOW that he has on his site.  Its amazing as to the fine points that he brings up.  

Mike


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## bluenosekenpo (Jun 7, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> I've been grappling and doing the FMA for a while, so naturally, anything related to the subject is going to peak my interest.  As for the BJJ....never really knew much about it until the UFC.  It was around that time that I was fortunate enough to find someone in my area that had some grappling experience.  The Kenpo....Larry Tatum spent quite a bit on time with Parker, and obviously it shows.  Check out the TOW that he has on his site.  Its amazing as to the fine points that he brings up.
> 
> Mike



The TOW's are basically the concepts from the videos, excellent intro though. Have you checked out the Gracie site?

http://www.bjj.org/

Excellent media there. check out the us wrestling site, that's good too, don't have the link handy though. enjoy, regards.


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## Flatlander (Jun 7, 2004)

Thank-you.  I'll be spending some money there.


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## MJS (Jun 7, 2004)

bluenosekenpo said:
			
		

> The TOW's are basically the concepts from the videos, excellent intro though. Have you checked out the Gracie site?
> 
> http://www.bjj.org/
> 
> Excellent media there. check out the us wrestling site, that's good too, don't have the link handy though. enjoy, regards.



Thanks for the link!  Looks like some good stuff!!  Roy Harris also has some techs. on his site that are pretty good as well.

Mike


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## Ceicei (Jun 7, 2004)

Thank you for the link.  I had been there previously, but it wasn't really clear-cut in what color order judo uses.  It gave a lot of history/background though.  It did say the judokas had to learn certain things before moving up through the ranks, but doesn't specify whether its through testing of their knowledge or if simply upon learning and using them in a competitive environment.  I do know that some judo schools are sports oriented.

Basically, I was hoping for some more direct answers.

- Ceicei


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## bluenosekenpo (Jun 7, 2004)

Ceicei said:
			
		

> Thank you for the link.  I had been there previously, but it wasn't really clear-cut in what color order judo uses.  It gave a lot of history/background though.  It did say the judokas had to learn certain things before moving up through the ranks, but doesn't specify whether its through testing of their knowledge or if simply upon learning and using them in a competitive environment.  I do know that some judo schools are sports oriented.
> 
> Basically, I was hoping for some more direct answers.
> 
> - Ceicei



??????????????????? don't recall a judo link. did you post in the wrong thread? if you want a good judo link, here you go. enjoy, train hard.

http://judoinfo.com/menu.shtml


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## Ceicei (Jun 7, 2004)

bluenosekenpo said:
			
		

> ??????????????????? don't recall a judo link. did you post in the wrong thread? if you want a good judo link, here you go. enjoy, train hard.
> 
> http://judoinfo.com/menu.shtml



Yes, I posted my reply to the wrong thread. I apologize for the confusion.  My reply was supposed to go to the "judo rank system" thread.  I had two windows open on my computer and wasn't paying attention to which thread I was replying.  

I am a green belt in american kenpo who is crosstraining with judo and my first judo class is tonight.  I've been doing research on and off about judo, but I suppose until I actually start doing judo tonight, I won't get all my questions answered before first class.

I apologize again for interrupting your thread with something that doesn't belong there. 

- Ceicei


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## Shinzu (Jun 8, 2004)

bluenosekenpo said:
			
		

> hi f, here's the link
> 
> http://dogbrothers.com/
> 
> check out the media clips.




those guys have issues..... and crazy to boot!


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## bluenosekenpo (Jun 8, 2004)

Shinzu said:
			
		

> those guys have issues..... and crazy to boot!



My kind of crazy.  i've always thought of them as the Jesuits of the martial arts. I mean that as a compliment. i don't know if i'd take it as far as them but i understand what they are trying to do. i guess the question is, will you learn more from point sparring and katas or getting into a fight with someone who's trying to take your head off? i think the latter would cut through the b/s pretty quickly and show you what works and what doesn't. this would apply to weaponless ma's too.

i appreciate the commentary on the links i posted , but what i'm really looking for is your input. have you reevaluated yourself? your art? are there videos that turned your training around? is there a person? share. regards :asian:


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## Flatlander (Jun 8, 2004)

Honestly blue, I don't feel like I've trained enough to get to that point, though I would really like to do some all out sparring to sort of "test" myself.  I need that validation right now.  But not with the sticks, yet.


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## bluenosekenpo (Jun 8, 2004)

flatlander said:
			
		

> Honestly blue, I don't feel like I've trained enough to get to that point, though I would really like to do some all out sparring to sort of "test" myself.  I need that validation right now.  But not with the sticks, yet.



i hear you, i'm currently recuperating from an abdominal tear (caused in part from a tracy kenpo drawbridge), a slightly torn acl (f***ed up back kick,still not sure how that happened), and worst of all, i'm over 40  , but i'd suggest that you could scale the realism to your level. personally i don't know if i'd ever go that hardcore, but the principles and putting it on the line is still where i want to end up. whether with pads or not, empty handed or with sticks, i'll keep an open mind and try it once, i might like it! train hard. :asian:


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## bluenosekenpo (Jun 8, 2004)

flatlander, just saw where you're located on another thread, their site is down this week, but check them out when it's up and running! lucky you.

http://www.pekiti-tirsia.ca/

here's a european sister site

http://www.pekiti-tirsia.net/mainfile.php?lang=en&soundsParam=off&file=mainfile 

:asian:


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## Flatlander (Jun 8, 2004)

Thank you very much.  What is your exposure to this art?


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## Cruentus (Jun 8, 2004)

> Keep in mind i had a judo/wrestling/tracys kenpo background.What tapes, instructors or situations have made the most profound chage for you? regards.



I was very lucky to have fallen into good instructors who kept things in perspective for me. I own very few videos, and the books and videos I have are for the purposes of seeing what is out there rather then for actual training. Internet, although I spend to much time on it, has only been a vehicle for discussion, but has not profoundly changed me, not by itself.

Now, for some who may not be as lucky as me to have good instructors and influences available to them, video and internet may be a good outlet.

 :asian:


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## TigerWoman (Jun 8, 2004)

bluenosekenpo said:
			
		

> About 5 months ago some things happened in my life that made me seriously question what i was doing and what i wanted from the martial arts. i started a journey seeking the _truth_.



I don't know what happened in your life but what happened in mine regarding martial arts was a turning point and actually I had quit for three weeks. I had come to trust my master instructor. For me, at this point in my life, trust does not come about easily, in fact, hardly at all. I tend to wait and see if they earn my trust by passing a few tests. I may be a hard case.  So, you come to trust and respect your master who professes honesty, truth, integrity and that a reputation is everything as a teacher.  In fact, you discuss this at many times, in testings, questions to the students and in class, hypotheticals-what would you do's. 

So what happens when this same teacher of these standards, breaks your trust, deceives you and your family with an underlying agenda, lies to you, breaks a promise, causes harm to a great deal of people and does not acknowledge that he did that to you or anybody else?  Is your faith in the martial arts tenets/morals and persons/friends of influence in your life, shaken? How can you trust anything that comes from this person?  What if you are veritably alone in this -- you are the only one who knows what happened and the fellow students that do, also profess integrity yet put their heads in the ground to save their standing or advance it.  

As much as I try to forgive and forget because everyone is human, my instructor keeps reminding me that he is not the person to be a master teaching others in MA. Especially at testing when I sit there and he expounds on the importance of integrity in everyone else and doesn't look at his own house. But his integrity is something, I cannot do anything about. I can only pray for him and live my life doing MA with a conviction in my own values yet knowing I am not perfect either. At least, I am there for others. I have my own goals and I will seek my own path in TKD.  And while it would be nice to have a mentor, or even a guide, that is not possible now. 

So whatever that has shaken you, I believe was done for a reason. I know, now, that I was not on the right path.  Your path will hopefully lead you, also, to a better outcome. May God Bless You.


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## Marginal (Jun 8, 2004)

I don't know if this qualifies as questioning my beleifs in the MA's, but I have been doing a lot of reading over the past year or so. The few books that stand out for me right now are:

Living the Martial Way

I really like the chapters dealing with tactics and training etc. I'm not entirely sold on the whole bushido in modern society tack that the rest of the book takes though. His section on the religious influences present in the Asian MA's is worth reading once and a while too. (Cuts down on the bunker mentality that some groups like to wallow in.)

Secret Tactics

Basically just a collection of older texts on the MA's and strategy etc compiled by Kazumi Tabata. He gives it a slightly more relevant spin by providing editorialized translations of selections from the book of five rings etc. 

Ringside.com' s free boxing manual

Lots of good conditioning advice. Interesting to see what's the same and what's different from TKD techniquewise too. 

None of that has lead me to question what my instructors are saying though. Mainly just read tem and other books to find resonance with my own training.


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## Shinzu (Jun 8, 2004)

bluenosekenpo said:
			
		

> My kind of crazy.  i've always thought of them as the Jesuits of the martial arts. I mean that as a compliment. i don't know if i'd take it as far as them but i understand what they are trying to do. i guess the question is, will you learn more from point sparring and katas or getting into a fight with someone who's trying to take your head off? i think the latter would cut through the b/s pretty quickly and show you what works and what doesn't. this would apply to weaponless ma's too.
> 
> i appreciate the commentary on the links i posted , but what i'm really looking for is your input. have you reevaluated yourself? your art? are there videos that turned your training around? is there a person? share. regards :asian:




i agree that the only way to find out is to get down to it, but if you wind up damaging yourself so bad then you can't train at all.  they go a bit too far i think.  at least they could pad up more.  that would make more sense to me.

during my 2nd degree BB test we did all out sparring with no gear (cup & mouthpeice only).  1 on 1, 2 on 1, and 3 on 1.  man was that tough.  it lasted for about 10 minutes or so.


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## ppko (Jun 8, 2004)

George Dillman is the reason I am still in the Martial Arts. I am learning from T.A. Frazer now one of Dillmans top three. I started training in the Martial Arts about 10 years ago under Tom Mansons Tokoshi Martial Arts my instructor was Tim Foster, I started in Aikijujitsu, Jujitsu, and Shotokan. Well we couldn't find any real martial reasons for kata so we threw them out and started doing Combat Gung-Fu. Well shortly after this I began to lose interest in the MA and stopped doing it for a short while, the reason why is because I felt like I was at a stopping point in my learning. Well I got a itch to do it again, but my instructor stopped teaching so I started looking for a good instructor and ran across Dusty Seale (another one of George Dillmans top three) well he started telling me more meaning than what I could have ever imagined. Well he gave the school to T.A. Frazer and I now love kata ever since I have found jwhat I believe to be the true meaning of kata. For more info on George Dillman go to www.dillman.com


PPKO


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## bluenosekenpo (Jun 9, 2004)

TigerWoman said:
			
		

> As much as I try to forgive and forget because everyone is human, my instructor keeps reminding me that he is not the person to be a master teaching others in MA. Especially at testing when I sit there and he expounds on the importance of integrity in everyone else and doesn't look at his own house. But his integrity is something, I cannot do anything about. I can only pray for him and live my life doing MA with a conviction in my own values yet knowing I am not perfect either. At least, I am there for others. I have my own goals and I will seek my own path in TKD.  And while it would be nice to have a mentor, or even a guide, that is not possible now.
> 
> So whatever that has shaken you, I believe was done for a reason. I know, now, that I was not on the right path.  Your path will hopefully lead you, also, to a better outcome. May God Bless You.



i don't know what happened to you, but i believe we went through a similar awakening. it was a culmination of incidents that made me question all martial arts teachers. so my quest began, the first thing i realized was that my understanding of kenpo was superficial at best. this was really brought out watching larry tatum. the depth of kenpo astounded me. wtf? what had i been learning? my progression of belts meant nothing. kenpo had saved me (no lie) at a personal level. it was the missing piece in my lifes puzzle. to find out it may have been a sham? it was pretty devestating. so i shook it off, and decided to look deeper into the ma's, _what was i looking for?  _ in retrospect, i believe it was in fact the best thing that could have happened to me. i was getting caught up in a belt collecting mentality. i was losing focus. i had lost the joy of discovery. so, here i am, at the begining of this leg of the journey, and i'm having a blast. as for your situation, i've seen it in others, don't stay with a teacher, just to get a particular belt. it really doesn't matter. do what you must for your own well being. no one elses. thank you for your wishes, enjoy your journey.(hope this didn't come across as too self-righteous).  :asian:


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## Flatlander (Jun 9, 2004)

That sounds like a very difficult process to have to go through.  It would be tough working through this type of foundation shaking revelation.  I'm not really sure what would cause such an event, but it speaks to your tenacity and martial dedication that you continued to search for meaning, rather than throwing it all away.

Much Respect.


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## bluenosekenpo (Sep 15, 2004)

the saga continues....for those interested....

about 2 months ago i was waliking with my kids to a local field. they bike,  i practice sinawali. this tall fella comes up behind us, "sticks?" he asks(they were in a bag and clicking as i walked). "yes", i reply cautiously,what happened over the next 2 hours was amazing. this guy was from germany and was travelling around the world. during his travels he would try and find people to practice ma's with where ever he was. how cool! we then proceeded to non contact stick fight. what a blast. it amazes me that the potential is always there for a profoundly positive life experience in the most unexpected places and situations. so my desire to find a new teacher/school was rekindled.

after another month of fruitless searching, i saw an ad on the internet for a jkd/fma seminar at a local jiujitsu school. what???? this is exactly what i've been looking for. in a nut shell, i went, had a great time, now practice at a new school. Bushido-kai jiujitsu, jkd, fma, judo, aikido, with alot of karate-kickboxing type strikes. and it's fun too! 

i get to work with high ranking belts from jj, hapkido, shotokan, kajukembo, judo, kickboxers, muay thai boxers and just a great group of folks. this is day to my kenpo schools night. 

oh, and i am a white belt again   :sadsong:     actually i like that too. train hard. regards


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