# Italiano Escrima?



## Marvin (Oct 25, 2005)

Met a guy from the P.I. that says he trains in Italiano Escrima. Says it's single stick/single knife. Anyone ever hear of it?


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## Rich Parsons (Oct 25, 2005)

Marvin said:
			
		

> Met a guy from the P.I. that says he trains in Italiano Escrima. Says it's single stick/single knife. Anyone ever hear of it?


   Nope, but would be interested in larning more about it.  Could we track him down and ply him with the drink of his choice? and then ask him more questions?


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## arnisador (Oct 25, 2005)

Could he mean Italian (Western) fencing? Escrime is French for fencing, which is usually from the French or Italian tradition (_scherma italiano_).


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## buguhan (Oct 26, 2005)

Maybe he ment Nova Scrimia!? http://www.novascrimia.com/eng/index.html

That`s an Italian historical martial art, they`re fencing with Sticks, Sabres and Daggers. 
Theire videos do look like Largo Mano, Espada y Daga and other FMA technics. 

Or does a filipino family have the name Italiano?!


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## Marvin (Oct 26, 2005)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Nope, but would be interested in larning more about it. Could we track him down and ply him with the drink of his choice? and then ask him more questions?


That is the plan!!:ultracool 
And on a seperate but similar note, over the weekend I met a gentleman who is here visiting his daughter, he is a police officer in China and he showed us some cool chin-na and pressure point stuff. (We were already full of our drinks of choice :boing2:. Rich, ask Ian about it if he comes on Sunday) 
I am trying to get them both to come to the club.


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## bart (Oct 26, 2005)

Marvin said:
			
		

> Met a guy from the P.I. that says he trains in Italiano Escrima. Says it's single stick/single knife. Anyone ever hear of it?


     I wouldn't be surprised if there was an actual italian connection. Although the hype mostly focuses around the dominion of Spain in the origins of eskrima. The word Arnis is an exact match for a 16th century italian word for "breastplate".   Before the late 19th century Italy was a collection of small states and not a cohesive "nation" like today. The italians were the foremost traders and adventurers of the late renaissance and many of italians were soldiers of fortune and explorers. Amerigo Vespucci, Marco Polo, and  Christopher Columbus were all Italians. Spain was also a country of many ethnicities and factions. They relied heavily on foreign soldiers and mercenaries to do a lot of the administration of their empire which at the time of the conquest of the Philippines still was newly won.     Also, eskrima was commonly referred to as &quot;fraile&quot; and many of the friars that worked in the Philippines were born in places that actually now are counted as parts of Italy. One of the most well known italians involved in the history of eskrima is Antonio Pigafetta who journaled the voyage of Magellan. I've been amazed sometimes at how the language and  It would be interesting to get some information about the Italiano Eskrima. I've done some research on the subject before which I'll put in my next post. It's mostly about the etymology of the language. But I think it at least shows there may be a solid link.


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## bart (Oct 26, 2005)

This is an excerpt from an email between myself and my teacher about some of the roots of Eskrima words. It has to do with Italian. 



Just another example of that italian thing, GM Carin's
BOSYONARIO seemingly comes from the word BOSYO with
the combination of BOSYO and NARIO coming together to
mean "the practice of BOSYO". BOSYO like other
transliterated words comes from VOCIO which is not a
Spanish word but an Italian word indicating "a yell
heard over other sounds". Below is a link to an online
Italian dictionary. 

http://www.oxfordparavia.it/lemmaIta31653

Just like Cebuano, Tagalog, and English even, Italian
has changed over the past century. Sometimes the words
used back then are not used anymore. So when you look
up words you have to seek an equivalent to an
"Unabridged" dictionary. It will include now "archaic"
words and their meanings. Anyway, I thought you might
get a kick out of that. You might get a nice kick out
of this one too:

http://www.oxfordparavia.it/lemmaIta2412



Another good example is ESTOKADA. This word has been
claimed to come from the Spanish word TOCAR. But that
word doesn't conjugate to estocada. In its closest
form it comes as ESTOQUE. However in Italian we have
STOCCATA which means "to thrust". A Filipino and a
Spaniard would prefix this word with a quiet E thus
making it ESTOCCATA. Philippine languages being
influenced greatly by Spanish would have substituted
the ATA at the end with an ADA out of habit,
especially if they believed the word to be Spanish.
Therefore if you Filipinize the word, the original
STOCCATA becomes ESTOKADA quite naturally. 

http://www.oxfordparavia.it/lemmaIta28367


In Italian "sch" is pronounced "k" so words like
SCHERMA are pronounced SKERMA. The Cebuano "e" is
pronounced like the Cebuano "i". It's not a long
stretch to make the Filipinized "ESKIRMA" especially
with the Spanish word "ESGRIMA" being around.
Linguistically transposition of letters is just as
common an orthography over time than substitution. It
makes just as much sense linguistically that ESKIRMA
becomes ESKRIMA as ESGRIMA becomes ESKRIMA. 

Another word is PUNTA. In Spanish it means "END", in
particular the heavy end of something. In Italian it
means "POINTED TIP" referring to that on a knife or
sword.

I've attached a map of Spain's power in Europe during
the late 1600's. It stayed that way for most of the
1700's as well.


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## Marvin (Oct 26, 2005)

Good stuff Bart, thanks!


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## arnisador (Oct 26, 2005)

Yes, very interesting. I thought of arnis as in Spanish _arnes_ "(battle) harness" (I think).


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## Marvin (Nov 1, 2005)

He is going to come to class next Sunday, so I will let you all know.


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## Marvin (Apr 22, 2006)

Talked to the gentleman again, he is not sure if he wants to show his style. He doens't want anyone to steal his stuff  .
So we will see.


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## Rocky (Apr 22, 2006)

WoW I haven't heard of any doing Italian in years, for those of you in the Buffalo area back in the late 80's you should remember that I use to teah bits and peaces of Italiano. I haven't ssen anyone doing much of it in years. the version I was tought by Guru Jenkins back in the 1980 was a liner long range stick and dagger with fencinf style foot work. Closing usually comes under the cover of high over head whitik types of attacking followed by very direct straight over hand dager attacks. It is a ver in and out type of art, I get the feeling it was an ansewer to the European saber arts, just my opinion. The foot work was definately barrowed from European fencing.


 I remember seeing bits and peaces taught buy Guro Inosanto years and years ago.

Rocky


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## Rich Parsons (Apr 23, 2006)

Marvin said:
			
		

> Talked to the gentleman again, he is not sure if he wants to show his style. He doens't want anyone to steal his stuff  .
> So we will see.




Good Point.

Ask him if not a demo, then maybe a sparring match?


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## Marvin (Apr 23, 2006)

Rocky said:
			
		

> WoW I haven't heard of any doing Italian in years, for those of you in the Buffalo area back in the late 80's you should remember that I use to teah bits and peaces of Italiano. I haven't ssen anyone doing much of it in years. the version I was tought by Guru Jenkins back in the 1980 was a liner long range stick and dagger with fencinf style foot work. Closing usually comes under the cover of high over head whitik types of attacking followed by very direct straight over hand dager attacks. It is a ver in and out type of art, I get the feeling it was an ansewer to the European saber arts, just my opinion. The foot work was definately barrowed from European fencing.
> 
> 
> I remember seeing bits and peaces taught buy Guro Inosanto years and years ago.
> ...


 
Rocky, I think I saw Mr. Inosanto show it a a seminar now that you mention it...


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## Marvin (Apr 23, 2006)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Good Point.
> 
> Ask him if not a demo, then maybe a sparring match?


Maybe. I'll ask him.


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