# Bujinkan - Is it for me?



## Jared Nichols (Dec 15, 2005)

Hello all,

I have been researching and learning about various martial traditions for a few years now, and I would now like to begin pursuing one as a student rather than an observer. However, there are certain standards that I have set for myself and the art I wish to study, and before committing myself I want to make sure that my faith in both is well placed. I have held off from joining an organization because I have dedicated that time to getting myself into the best shape I've ever been in, losing extra weight that I've had for a couple of years and developing muscular and cardivasulcar endurance that I can be proud of, and I am still continuing on my training. This has taught me discipline, commitment, and it's given me a healthy respect for rigorous physical activity. Much of my physical training has also included classic western boxing, so I am no stranger to the simple mechanics of distance, timing, and the value of a good overhand right.

What I am looking for in an art is an emphisis on surviving the encounter once it has elevated beyond a reasonable point. I am skilled at steering clear of trouble and do not bother myself with anything likely to cause it, however I will be going into a career in the military and possibly law enforcement in the near future, and if it comes to a physical altercation with someone intent on doing me grevious bodily harm, I would prefer it be I who walks away from the encounter rather than my attacker. That, among other things, has always brought me back to the Bujinkan when I go leafing through pages of information on different schools. The fighting spirit that the Bujinkan conveys, in my interpretation, is one of endurance and survival. I like that, it appeals to me. I do not want to win a million points in a tournament or break some UFC knockout record, I simply want to be armed with the skill and knowledge to be able to walk away from a dangerous or life-threatening situation should I find myself in one.

I guess I should also say that I am probably the least interested person in the world when it comes to dojo politics. The way I figure it, the recognized Soke is just that, the headmaster of the entire school and not subject to debate or interpretation. His school, his law, and fair enough in my opinion, I am here to learn the art not change it. This has been the only subject of turmoil for me in regards to my feelings on the Bujinkan, because while I can't offer first hand experiance myself, I have read about many differing points of view when it comes to how the Bujinkan's curriculum is taught to the public. Suffice to say, I would wish to stay as strict to the word and tradition of the current and all of the previous Soke as possible.

So, in all of that, what I am asking for is honest feedback from those of you who have had the first hand experiance of Bujinkan training and to see your opinions on whether or not training in the Bujinkan is in my best interests. I have proven to myself in this past year that I have the discipline and commitment required to see my goals to their end, and now I am ready to begin again. Luckily, I live in Los Angeles, California so there is an abundance of schools in my area. Which of those schools I attend will also be a matter of research and decision making, but I will take things one step at a time. For now, I would like to know your opinions of what you have taken from your time in the Bujinkan and if you value what you have learned as true 'self-defense' in every sense of the word.

Thank you in advance for your time in this matter, all advice or input is very much appreciated.


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## rutherford (Dec 15, 2005)

Honestly, you'll never know until you go out and try it.

What's keeping you from walking through the door?


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## Navarre (Dec 15, 2005)

rutherford said:
			
		

> What's keeping you from walking through the door?


 
Good place to start. Have you visited any of the local schools or talked to the instructor?

By the way, *Welcome to Martial Talk, Jared!!*


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## Jared Nichols (Dec 16, 2005)

Well, to be honest, whats kept me from walking in the door thus far is the fear that I'll be placing myself and my trust in the hands of some self-important, all powerful uber ninja who gets off on showing his students what a badass shinobi he is. I've met instructors from other traditions who are dripping with that sort of ignorance, and from some reading that I've done, I am somewhat apprehensive walking into the arms of a sensei that I know nothing about. Choosing an instructor that I feel fits me comes later though, for now I want to make sure that the Bujinkan itself is the school that I think it is and that would suit my needs well.

I want to study a tradition that places an emphisis on my survival, one that has worked in the real world under all kinds of imaginable circumstances. I would also like to study a tradition that knows surviving a dangerous encounter is more than just physical combat. Evasion, camouflage, escape, these are all tools of the survivalist and will probably save my life more often then learning how to block a spinning round-house kick.

I want to enter into a school with a mindset geared towards applicability in the modern world, and one complete enough to encompass all aspects of self-defense instead of limiting itself to beating someone up and/or taking a beating in return. I believe that the Bujinkan is the school that I am looking for, that with the right discipline and commitment from myself and the right instructors, I can achieve the goals that I have set before myself. However, before I take the next steps and begin researching local schools and teachers, I wanted to get some feedback from those of you already enrolled in the Bujinkan, to share your experiances thus far with me and give me your opinions on whether or not you believe that the art you study fits the description of what I am looking for.

Again, I am very much obliged for your advice or input.


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## Navarre (Dec 16, 2005)

Jared, I don't study this art so I can't give you my direct experiences with it.  Nonetheless, finding a good school is going to be the same regardless of style.

Even if Bujinkan is right for you, a given school may not be. On the other hand, you may even find another style's school to be perfect for you because of what the instructor brings to the table.

The truth is you will never be able to make an informed decision unless you see the school for yourself. Don't let the fear of possible bad experience deter you from visiting a school and talking to the instructor.

It sounds to me like you know what you want. It also sounds like you have enough sense to recognize good from bad.

Remember, there are no bad styles, only bad teachers. Don't give up; look at what's there for you. 

I'm sure you'll find a place that's "home" for you.  Good luck!


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## Flying Crane (Dec 16, 2005)

Jared Nichols said:
			
		

> Well, to be honest, whats kept me from walking in the door thus far is the fear that I'll be placing myself and my trust in the hands of some self-important, all powerful uber ninja who gets off on showing his students what a badass shinobi he is. I've met instructors from other traditions who are dripping with that sort of ignorance, and from some reading that I've done, I am somewhat apprehensive walking into the arms of a sensei that I know nothing about. Choosing an instructor that I feel fits me comes later though, for now I want to make sure that the Bujinkan itself is the school that I think it is and that would suit my needs well.


 
I understand what kind of information you are looking for, but asking for it here will give you mixed results.  All you will hear is the opinions of different people.  But you don't know if you can trust their opinions, or if their point of view is so radically different from your own that you would never be in agreement no matter what.  Like the others said, walk in the door, check out the school, do some research, try out some classes, and don't be afraid to leave a school if it doesn't work out for you.  Sounds like it is time for you to jump in the pool and get wet.  Good luck!


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## Bigshadow (Dec 16, 2005)

Jared, I train in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, just visit a local training group or dojo. Many groups will let you participate with them one or two times before you would need to make a decision. So if there is more than one group or dojo in the area, go and play to see how you like them and or the instructor(s). Also, the instructors I have trained with are not like what you describe, although I know there may be a few out there. However, this art is too dangerous to be played with like that. I think the intructors who would conduct themselves as you describe wouldn't have many students if any at all because if you keep breaking your students, pretty soon they wouldn't have any students to play with.

There is always at the very least a small amount of humility involved when putting yourself at the mercy of someone to learn what they have to offer. It can be a humbling experience. If this is what is bothering you then you need to let it go and just train. Nobody knows everything, nobody can do everything, that is why we are all learning, even the intructors are still learning. Many will tell that they are just training with you, not teaching you. In essence, your learning is just a process of trying to catch up to them.

As some instructors will tell you in the dojo when too much talking is taking place... "Stop yaking and start smacking!" Good luck!


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## Cryozombie (Dec 16, 2005)

Find out who's active in your area.  Check out http://www.winjutsu.com/winlinks.html

and see who's there.  Check out a couple classes... ask around if anyone knows him or her, on here or elsewhere... 

Hope you find somthing that works for you.


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## Cyber Ninja (Dec 17, 2005)

Jared Nichols said:
			
		

> Luckily, I live in Los Angeles, California so there is an abundance of schools in my area. Which of those schools I attend will also be a matter of research and decision making, but I will take things one step at a time. For now, I would like to know your opinions of what you have taken from your time in the Bujinkan and if you value what you have learned as true 'self-defense' in every sense of the word.
> 
> Thank you in advance for your time in this matter, all advice or input is very much appreciated.


 
Jared,

I know you asked about the Bujinkan, but since you live in L.A. you might want to also take a look at http://www.jinenkan-la.com. I highly recommend Sensei Steeves and his dojo. Hope this helps...


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## Fu_Bag (Dec 24, 2005)

Jared Nichols said:
			
		

> Well, to be honest, whats kept me from walking in the door thus far is the fear that I'll be placing myself and my trust in the hands of some self-important, all powerful uber ninja who gets off on showing his students what a badass shinobi he is. I've met instructors from other traditions who are dripping with that sort of ignorance, and from some reading that I've done, I am somewhat apprehensive walking into the arms of a sensei that I know nothing about. Choosing an instructor that I feel fits me comes later though, for now I want to make sure that the Bujinkan itself is the school that I think it is and that would suit my needs well.


 
Jared,

This is an excellent point.  If you've been researching for a while, then you've no doubt already seen a few uber ninjas who conduct themselves interestingly online.  It's hard to escape dojo politics in the Bujinkan due to a number of issues you've probably seen discussed to death.  You are going to be depending on this system to get you home safely everyday so you are rightly concerned when it comes to finding the right instructor.

For about $50.00, you can purchase Hatsumi-sensei's "Kihon Happo" video.  It may also be called "Kobudo no Kihon".  When it comes to instructors, the first thing you want to verify is that they move like Hatsumi-sensei.  One video isn't necessarily enough but at least it's a reference point.  Secondly, there's the first impression.

The Bujinkan folks you would probably want to train with are the ones who you could never tell train.  That's very significant considering that part of danger avoidance is not bringing it on yourself in the first place.  There are times when you need to move through/survive dangerous situations but that's a little different than advertising you're the biggest, baddest, uber ninja on Earth that noone could ever defeat.  I think you've made that point very well already so I'm preaching to the choir here.

Honestly, if you really wanted to know that you find what you're looking for, find a Japanese translator, write Hatsumi-sensei a sincere letter, and ask him for a recommendation.  You'll have to have it translated both ways unless you're already fluent in Japanese.  Considering that your life is going to be depending on finding the right teacher, it might be worth it.  I think you've already figured out that the biggest name uber ninja is still just a human being with flaws like everyone else.

If you don't find what you're looking for in the Bujinkan, there are also the Jinenkan and the Genbukan.  Ultimately, its going to come down to whether or not you click with the instructor from the get go.  If you don't click with them from the start, trusting your life to them may not turn out so well.  As a side note, if I were going to send Hatsumi-sensei a letter, I would use an impartial translator for the sake of privacy, both directions, and for the sake of staying out of dojo politics.

Good luck in finding what you're looking for and in your upcoming life adventure.

Sincerely,

Fu_Bag


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## Connovar (Dec 25, 2005)

I trained with the bujinkan from 1988 to 1997 and have trained in many systems other than the bujinkan and my opinion is as follows:The bujinkan has some very nice people in it and they can demonstrate some nice techniques when no significant resistance is provided. There is a nice moral code within the organization and it is lots of fun learning about ancient weapons. That being said it IMO it is one of the least effecient systems for training in self defense because of its dated technique and inefficient training methods. Its rank system is way out of control. It does not require or provide the physical conditioning that one would need as a police officer nor will it provide the conditioning that is helpfull for one to live a long life. I suspect that since you are asking here you have already pretty much made up your mind already, so good luck to you.Since you are planning on becoming a police off, your close quarter skills are important.I would therefore suggest that  you would be take your taijitsu skills you learn to a judo or jiu-jitsu competition and test your skills against live resistance. If you do well then you have learned the technique properly and can thus rely upon them to defend yourself. Anything less than that leaves your true abilities in great doubt by objective standards and I think you deserve better than that.


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## terryl965 (Dec 25, 2005)

Jared the best way to see is go to the school watch some classes ask alot of question from those classes and give it a shot if all else fails try another school or Art. TYhe only thing that is stopping you is you my friend.
Master Stoker


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Dec 26, 2005)

Oh, and one more thing...

:feedtroll


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## Connovar (Dec 26, 2005)

Ahhh, Nimravus such an enlightened response. Its too bad you cant tolerate people having different opinions than your own! This young man asked for opinions and I gave a him a polite one based upon experience.


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## Kreth (Dec 26, 2005)

Mod. Note. 
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Kreth
-MT Moderator-


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Dec 26, 2005)

You should have been there that time when two sanshou guys showed up at the dojo I trained in this summer, for what seemed to be the sole purpose of impressing their ladyfriends...in the middle of the training session both of them puked on the mat due to physical exhaustion.


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## Connovar (Dec 26, 2005)

I have no experience with SanShou so I cant comment on it.My experience with the bujinkan is that I have never seen the cardio and strength conditioning that is present in the submission grappling, BJJ or MMA experiences I have had. The bujinkan practioners do have some good flexibility and their rolling techniques are quite good. I still do the rolling practice as one of the few residuals from taijitsu that I personally find usefull. Regarding flexibility I would say that in general taijitsu practitioners tend to be better than submission grapplers however compared to  BJJ it is equal.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Dec 26, 2005)

If I may quote myself from a recent thread in the Toshindo forum - whether or not you're going to be exposed to the elements of Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu that suits you the best sadly depends quite a lot on you being at the correct place at the correct time. You're entitled to your opinion based on your experience, but if I was you I'd be a bit more careful about uttering such broad statements about the Bujinkan as a whole, because training is conducted all around the world, not just where you are at any particular time.


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## Connovar (Dec 26, 2005)

I would consider almost 10 years with Bujinkan and having trained with different instructors in different places as a more than adequate experience of the Bujinkan. Of course we also trained with students and instructors  from different countries who would be there, so it isnt  just US based observations.


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## rutherford (Dec 26, 2005)

Connovar said:
			
		

> I would consider almost 10 years with Bujinkan and having trained with different instructors in different places as a more than adequate experience of the Bujinkan. Of course we also trained with students and instructors from different countries who would be there, so it isnt just US based observations.



Hey, I'm sorry you didn't get it.  Who was your teacher?

Anybody with a little bit of time and a bit of skill at message forums will do a websearch on your username and find that you've been grinding the same axe through every post.  If you don't have anything else to say, that's fine.  At least there's nice long pauses between your visits.

You've been right about 1 thing so far - Nimravus's first response to your post was elegant.  I'm sorry to be crass in comparison.


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## Connovar (Dec 26, 2005)

Steve Hayes, Shawn Haven, Ken Harding as regular instructors not to mention seminars with Hatsumi, Hoban, Manaka etc etc. Dont worry about being crass. You are what you are!


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## Cryozombie (Dec 26, 2005)

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GENTLEMEN:

Please review our posting rules:

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## rutherford (Dec 26, 2005)

Oh, I don't worry.  I just try to be better with every breath.

The Bujinkan is a good way to do that, in my never-humble opinion.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Dec 26, 2005)

Connovar said:
			
		

> I would consider almost 10 years with Bujinkan and having trained with different instructors in different places as a more than adequate experience of the Bujinkan. Of course we also trained with students and instructors from different countries who would be there, so it isnt just US based observations.


 
Well, with your training experience being a tad more extensive than my own, I'd say that this accentuates my point about being at the right place at the right time even more, sorry to say it. It's all about knowing your place in the training "food chain". A year ago, an instructor from the dojo I've been visiting quite a lot recently told me that if I had started my training there, I would probably never have heard of kihon happo even after several years - simply because the unspoken rule of the dojo in question is that you are expected to know it thoroughly when you show up to train there.


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## Connovar (Dec 26, 2005)

Yes I suppose that Hayes, Harding, Malstrom, Hoban, Manaka etc really dont know their taijitsu as well as they do where you come from. We just cant get good instruction here in the ole USA


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Dec 26, 2005)

""As you can see, training is like cooking. Two people can have the exact same ingredients, but one is able to create something delicious, the other, something disgusting."

- quoted from "Understand? Good. Play!"


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## Connovar (Dec 26, 2005)

Yes,Playing can be good especially when you are a child. However there comes a time when we must grow up and put the childish things behind us.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Dec 26, 2005)

"Until now, I feel as if I have been playing with you. Well, I am sick of playing. I mentioned the other day at my talk about Takamatsu-sensei that men were made to cry and to die. And I meant it. If you are scared of death, please quit training. Because ultimately that is what you are training for. That's why you don't see any more kindergarten students around any more. It's time to start treating you like adults."

- quoted from "Understand? Good. Play!"


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## Cryozombie (Dec 26, 2005)

*-thread Locked Pending Admin Review-*


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## Rich Parsons (Dec 29, 2005)

Thread Closed

Thank you

Rich Parsons
Martial Talk 
Assistant Administrator


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