# Mantis fight distance



## rox (Jan 27, 2005)

I'm looking forward to train mantis or wing chun next year, when I move to a bigger city. I see my style pretty useful on mid to long distance, but a little limited at close distances, so I would like a inside fighting style. I've never seen a mantis stylist sparring or something, but from what I read it seems like it fights close. Does it?

If someone could send me a link of a sparring clip or something, it would be of great help


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## Autocrat (Jan 27, 2005)

I'm not a hundred percent certain, yet I believe it is primarily an "in close" system, lots of short range fast attacks, grabs etc.  I think it is also High/Low as well, and utilises solid stances.  Then again, I could be wrong.
   I think there are also several variants on Mantis... Northen and Southern sort of thing, so it may depend on the origin of the style to how it works.

Best of luck!


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## 7starmantis (Jan 27, 2005)

Yes, mantis utilizes very close fighting. One of the main principles being to stay in contact with your opponent at all times. A good mantis fighter will allways be moving in and moving closer. It also uses different angles and a mantis fighter will step around and even behind you while staying in very close. I posted a clip of some mantis drills I found online in the video exchange thread......
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=340825#post340825
 Its pretty good at showing some of the close fighting techniques. 

 7sm


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## rox (Jan 27, 2005)

The video is great, 7*!
I think both wing chun or mantis would be suitable for me, then.
Thanks!


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## AC_Pilot (Jan 27, 2005)

Both can be close in fighting but Mantis has two branches: Northern and Southern. The Northern stress weapons and some other longer range tools, while Southern is more close in, with trapping and wrist locks, including weapons as well. Savvy Jeet Kune Do folks extract techniques and concepts from both arts, (WC and PM) but most neglect some techniques in praying Mantis that can be very helpful.. certain traps and locks, that come incidentally during a fight, including leg traps (trapping kicks) that can finish an attack very quickly indeed. I have a complete set of 7 Star Southern Praying Mantis training tapes from Sifu Raul Ortiz, including sparring and self defense tapes, and I have extracted several mostly unknown techniques and concepts for my version of JKD.


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## clfsean (Jan 27, 2005)

7 Star is Northern in origin, but became popular in the south due in large part to the Chin Woo (Jing Wu).

Southern Praying Mantis is Hakka in origin & nothing like Nothern anything.


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## AC_Pilot (Jan 27, 2005)

It does get a bit confusing since the Southern style is apparently an offshoot, and seems to be heavily influenced by other Southern Gung Fu arts, but in the West (America)  at least, they are promoted as two _distinct_ branches of the same art.  Most Americans would not be interested in Northern PM high flying kicks and such for self defense.. since we have few Mongol horsemen to deal with at this time :asian:  If you have links to prove they are not related, please post them, I would be happy to learn any accurate history.


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## 7starmantis (Jan 27, 2005)

AC_Pilot said:
			
		

> Both can be close in fighting but Mantis has two branches: Northern and Southern. The Northern stress weapons and some other longer range tools, while Southern is more close in, with trapping and wrist locks, including weapons as well.


 Thats more of a stereotype or generalization than fact. Northern doesn't neccessarily stress weapons. Many northern PM system do use a bit more long fist techniques, but 7* in particular uses the least. What many see and label as long fist or long range techniques are often misunderstood techniques that are really used for much closer fighting. 

 7sm


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## 7starmantis (Jan 27, 2005)

AC_Pilot said:
			
		

> Most Americans would not be interested in Northern PM high flying kicks and such for self defense.. since we have few Mongol horsemen to deal with at this time :asian:


 Again, this is a generalization made usually from people who do not practice NPM. Most NPM (Northern Praying Mantis) does not include high flying kicks or anything of the like. 

 7sm


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## clfsean (Jan 27, 2005)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> Again, this is a generalization made usually from people who do not practice NPM. Most NPM (Northern Praying Mantis) does not include high flying kicks or anything of the like.
> 
> 7sm


True... I've got a version Lan Jie & I've only got 1 kick in it & it's a knee kick.


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## rox (Jan 28, 2005)

How do you PM guys defend muay-thay style kicks to the front leg? The stance seems to be a little more based on mobility, but it doesn't look easy to lift your leg or trap the low kicks.


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## 7starmantis (Jan 28, 2005)

rox said:
			
		

> How do you PM guys defend muay-thay style kicks to the front leg? The stance seems to be a little more based on mobility, but it doesn't look easy to lift your leg or trap the low kicks.


 What stance are you refering to? We do alot of work on learning to lift the legs when needed. Thats probably the most common defense, is raising the leg to block. We do ALOT of conditioning as well on the legs.

 7sm


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## RHD (Jan 28, 2005)

I may be completely wrong with this, but isn't mantis particularly good at nailing an opponent in the process of them closing in?

Mike


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## 7starmantis (Jan 28, 2005)

Actually thats one of the main fighting principles in mantis. We will lure you in and then attack. Some of the mantis footwork gives a false distance feel as well to help in this principle.

7sm


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## Trainwreck (Jan 29, 2005)

You mentioned the main fighting principles of Mantis, 7*.  Please enlighten me - I'm supposed to learn the Shaolin variation of it soon and I'd like to get a head start.


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## rox (Jan 29, 2005)

7star, I mean the stance adopted in the video, with the body low and the lags wide apart.


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## 7starmantis (Jan 29, 2005)

rox said:
			
		

> 7star, I mean the stance adopted in the video, with the body low and the lags wide apart.


 I'm guessing your talking about horse stance. For all the stance training we do in mantis, we do probably do double on transitioning stances. The most probable defense to what your talking about is either moving in closer and attacking thus shutting down the kick, or lifting the leg to block, or even shifting into the kick and attacking the leg as it kicks.There are so many different possibilities though, these are just a few. 

  7sm


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## 7starmantis (Jan 29, 2005)

Trainwreck said:
			
		

> You mentioned the main fighting principles of Mantis, 7*. Please enlighten me - I'm supposed to learn the Shaolin variation of it soon and I'd like to get a head start.


 I'm not really sure what your asking. Your going to study the shaolin variation of what?

 7sm


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## rox (Jan 29, 2005)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> I'm guessing your talking about horse stance. For all the stance training we do in mantis, we do probably do double on transitioning stances. The most probable defense to what your talking about is either moving in closer and attacking thus shutting down the kick, or lifting the leg to block, or even shifting into the kick and attacking the leg as it kicks.There are so many different possibilities though, these are just a few.
> 
> 7sm



I don't mean a horse stance, I mean that one that is almos like it, but with legs wider. Something like this(sorry for the problematic communication, english's my second language):

Horse stance: |****|
The stance I mean: /****\

BTW, you very much answered the question, thanks.


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## Trainwreck (Jan 29, 2005)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> I'm not really sure what your asking. Your going to study the shaolin variation of what?
> 
> 7sm


Sorry about the confusion.  The Shaolin long form of Mantis.


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## 7starmantis (Jan 29, 2005)

rox said:
			
		

> I don't mean a horse stance, I mean that one that is almos like it, but with legs wider. Something like this(sorry for the problematic communication, english's my second language):
> 
> Horse stance: |****|
> The stance I mean: /****\
> ...


 No problem, I think we are still talking about horse stance. Its just they were using a wider, higher version of horse stance. They also moved from horse stance to other stances and back again. In mantis you use your horse stance to move in as well. So while sitting in horse stance you'll see people stepping with their lead foot. It sort of makes the horse stance look alot wider. 



			
				Trainwreck said:
			
		

> Sorry about the confusion.  The Shaolin long form of Mantis.


 The fighting principles you would learn in my school and the ones you will learn in a shaolin school touching on mantis will be very,* very* different. I dont really know much about shaolin long form of mantis, but most schools that touch on mantis pull one or two forms and learn them, but miss alot of the deeper core principles in doing so.

  7sm


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## clfsean (Jan 29, 2005)

Just ask about Ou, Luo, Tsai ... I believe all Mantis systems use those three principles.


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## 7starmantis (Jan 30, 2005)

clfsean said:
			
		

> Just ask about Ou, Luo, Tsai ... I believe all Mantis systems use those three principles.


 Probably so, but those are more techniques than principles. I guess what I was trying to say is that shaolin schools that touch on mantis aren't really learning a mantis system, they are learning some forms from the mantis system, but not the entire system, therefore the principles learned will not neccessarily be different as much as just missing. 

 7sm


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## j_m (Jan 31, 2005)

rox said:
			
		

> I'm looking forward to train mantis or wing chun next year, when I move to a bigger city. I see my style pretty useful on mid to long distance, but a little limited at close distances, so I would like a inside fighting style. I've never seen a mantis stylist sparring or something, but from what I read it seems like it fights close. Does it?
> 
> If someone could send me a link of a sparring clip or something, it would be of great help


I just browsed through this thread and only have one question off the top of my head (heh... I'm a poet): 

Are there any CMA styles that are NOT for close range fighting??  




jm


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## clfsean (Jan 31, 2005)

j_m said:
			
		

> I just browsed through this thread and only have one question off the top of my head (heh... I'm a poet):
> 
> Are there any CMA styles that are NOT for close range fighting??
> 
> jm


None that I can think of. Even in the branch Choy Lee Fut I practice, we like to get close & personal real quick to finish things off.


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## rox (Jan 31, 2005)

Longfist?

My style is *half* CMA so I cannot tell anything.


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## j_m (Jan 31, 2005)

rox said:
			
		

> Longfist?


Nope.

Longfist is excellent for close range fighting.  FYI.




jm


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## Trainwreck (Jan 31, 2005)

Hmm ... does Crane count as long range?  It seems to emphasize full-power strikes designed to keep your opponent away from your more vulnerable body.


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## clfsean (Feb 1, 2005)

Depends on the crane... if Bak Hok then maybe, but they prefer close as well. If Fujian or Fuzhou... then you never get close to them because they're already controlling you. 

Which one are you talking about?


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## Trainwreck (Feb 3, 2005)

The one you taught me in the Shaolin system.


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## clfsean (Feb 3, 2005)

Well then it's neither of those... 

Did you ask about Ou Luo Tsai?


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## Trainwreck (Feb 3, 2005)

Ack, my bad, I meant to but somehow got sidetracked and forgot to ask about it!  Please, I'd like to know more about it.  Anyone?


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## Infrazael (Mar 21, 2005)

Hmmm. . . . CLFsean, mabye we differ in personal taste.

I'm a small guy, 130 pounds, 5'6" and I really can't take that much of a beating from bigger people.

Thus, I really like finishing people from a distance using Sao Choy, Gwa-Sao, Gwa-Kup, Gwa-Kum, etc etc etc. . . . (seems like the "Gwa" starts everything!!!).

But I agree, CLF is excellent for closing in as well. Centergate elbow with sliding horsestance??? Yep.

I think the thing is, short-range CMA focuses on short-attacks, and long-range CMA focuses on short AND long-ranged attacks.


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## clfsean (Mar 21, 2005)

Infrazael said:
			
		

> Hmmm. . . . CLFsean, mabye we differ in personal taste.
> 
> I'm a small guy, 130 pounds, 5'6" and I really can't take that much of a beating from bigger people.
> 
> ...


Footwork... it's all about footwork.  My sigung is only 5'2" ... my sifu is 6'2". They both like to be in & close. Sigung is in & close so you can't hit hit & Sifu is in & close cause he crashes in on you. Both have different philosophies on closing the gap, but both are big fans of in & close. 

Let me pose a question to you where there's no right & no wrong, but just an idea. If I bridge out to you with say a Gwa like you start with (like I start with too...  ) & then instead of staying outside & I move into you with say... chop, ping ahn, pao & kahp. 4 strikes... BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM... The whole time moving in on angles while shortening your distance to me (reducing your striking room) & continuing to hammer with mine... where's the better position? In & carpet bombing or out & picking??


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## Infrazael (Mar 22, 2005)

Interesting. BTW, what's Ping Ahn again???


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## clfsean (Mar 22, 2005)

Leopard Fist (Pao Choi) but not the uppercut Pao Choi. Ping Ahn translate out to something like "level eye" or something similar.


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## Infrazael (Mar 23, 2005)

You mean the horizontal leopard paw directed towards the throat/nose/face of the opponent???


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## clfsean (Mar 23, 2005)

Yep


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## Infrazael (Mar 23, 2005)

We call it something like (sorry, I don't catch cantonese well) Quan Wang Choy. . . . . arghhh. . . ..


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## clfsean (Mar 23, 2005)

There are so many variations on fist positions & all that it's silly. At my school, we use the fist name, but dropped the Cantonese for the positioning unless it changes the name significantly of the hand. Just easier that way...


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## rox (Mar 24, 2005)

Could you guys explain for non-choy-lay-fut people?

It would help if I knew what a Gwa is! 

Is there any introductory site or something?


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