# Marine Corps Martial Arts Program



## RyuShiKan (Feb 2, 2003)

I actually got to see them train while I was working Iwakuni Air Station.
I have to say it's not bad at all.


CAMP COURTNEY (Jan 31, 2003) -- "To locate close with and destroy the enemy with fire and maneuver..."
Although this has been the proclamation that gave hundreds of Marine rifle squads their marching orders to fight their enemies, it is not guaranteed that a Marine will always be able to rely on his rifle to fend off the enemy. 
Hence, the Marine Corps has created the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program.
Students of the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program Far East School here demonstrated to the commanding generals, the senior enlisted council and the Japanese Ground Self-Defense Force, the techniques they have learned during the Green Belt Instructor Course Dec. 18.
The reason for the demonstration is to show the senior leadership on Okinawa the multitude of techniques used within the martial arts training program and the similarities it has with Okinawan martial arts, explained Staff Sgt. Brantley E. Friend, martial arts instructor trainer.
"The purpose for the demonstration is for the senior leadership on Okinawa," the Winder, Ga., native said. "This will let them see everything we teach our students, and if any of them are confused to what the program is about, then this will give them some answers."
Friend added that the demonstration showed a variety of martial art techniques, which Marines might one day need on the battlefield.
"Marines are not always going to be armed or have ammunition and artillery," Friend said. "Every major conflict the Marine Corps has been in has come down to hand-to-hand combat. The program gives Marines another tool to fight out of a bad situation."
Another important aspect of martial arts is executing the fighting skills properly, which is just what the demonstrators did while performing in front of the crowd.
"We started the demo by doing some bayonet training. That gets the students used to going into a fight with a straight thrust, which is the most lethal strike in a fight," he said. "Next, we went into pugil-stick fighting, knife-fighting, armed manipulations, unarmed manipulations, counter techniques, throws and free sparring."
Hosting the event were the students of the Green Belt Instructor Course, which consists of 120 hours of training throughout a three-week period. 
During the demonstration, the students not only showed off what they were taught but also answered the questions asked by the audience.
"The guests seemed very curious as well as impressed with the display," said 2nd Lt. Sean J. Schickel, student, and event demonstrator. "We had a few questions from the guests who were eager to learn basic knowledge of the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program. They were all curious about the discipline that's required and the character values that are learned."
Other demonstrations given by the Okinawan guests gave the students a new insight on martial arts as well, according to Schickel.
*"The Marine Corps Martial Arts Program was originally developed from Okinawan martial arts," * the Princeton, Ill., native said. "Seeing what they do gave us an idea on what the program could evolve into one day."


----------



## arnisador (Feb 2, 2003)

I read about the Marine Corps' system, complete with belt ranks. I'm glad they're encouraging this kind of training, though I suspect it helps more for confidence than actual combat.


----------



## yilisifu (Feb 2, 2003)

Is their training effective?  I'm old enough to remember the god-forsaken "O'Neal" method taught to troops back in the old days...One would have been better off spitting at the enemy and calling him nasty names than using that stuff... 
   I hope this new method is better.


----------



## chufeng (Feb 2, 2003)

Did O'Neil learn his stuff from Monty Python?

"I fart in your general direction, you English sissies..."

:asian:
chufeng


----------



## Matt Stone (Feb 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *I read about the Marine Corps' system, complete with belt ranks. I'm glad they're encouraging this kind of training, though I suspect it helps more for confidence than actual combat. *



Marines are the _last_ bunch of folks that need to develop _confidence_...


----------



## arnisador (Feb 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *Marines are the last bunch of folks that need to develop confidence... *



Heh. No argument.


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 2, 2003)

No this was not the standard line training they teach in Basic Training.

They actually developed this training based on existing techniques. 
I met the instructor on Iwakuni who was a black belt in their system of training.
He also said they borrowed a lot of techniques from Okinawan Karate. They use a lot of no nonsense takedowns and joint breaks that seem like they would work under the conditions they were meant for.
Not bad stuff really.


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *Marines are the last bunch of folks that need to develop confidence... *




Yeah......no kidding. 


While I was on Iwakuni Air Base I had a great time working with the Marines there. 
I was walking down the sidewalk with a Lt. Colonel and some NCOs one day. The Lt. Col. bent over to pick up some trash that he saw on the ground. I knew that man would never ask someone that worked for him to do something he wasnt prepared to do himself.

I can really appreciate that sort of spirit. 
I also think every teenager over the age of 15 should go through Marine Corps boot camp to get their sxxt straightend out.
I have never encountered a more polite and respectful group in my whole life.


----------



## chufeng (Feb 2, 2003)

Thank you for the kind comments regarding our military servicemen and women...

Too many times they are painted as gung ho killing machines (and they are when the time is right)...and undisciplined troublemakers when not out in the field (BS...)

Truth is, they embody the essence of what our founding fathers intended...I am proud of them.

:asian:
chufeng


----------



## arnisador (Feb 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *Truth is, they embody the essence of what our founding fathers intended...I am proud of them.*



I worked for the Navy and then the Army, as a civilian but in a very military environment. For someone like me who had had no real exposure to the military it was very eye-opening. It broke a lot of my stereotypes.

The LINE system was dropped, I now recall; there's an article here.


----------



## white belt (Feb 3, 2003)

Arnisador,

I have a student who left for Marine basic training in August of 2002.  He came back on leave over Christmas and trained with us.  He reached Tan Belt so far and said there are similarities to his DoJang training.  He looked lean and hard.  Your sharing that article filled in some gaps for me.  Thanks.

white belt


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 3, 2003)

The new "belt system" they use is Tan, Green, Black.

No stripes on the belts or *Soke*  titles written on it either.
Actually the belts are just regular daily use belts........not MA belts


----------



## Matt Stone (Feb 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *The new "belt system" they use is Tan, Green, Black.
> 
> No stripes on the belts or Soke  titles written on it either.
> Actually the belts are just regular daily use belts........not MA belts *



I got a kick out of that when I first heard of it, but then got to wondering how the USMC uniform regs would handle such a thing.

I know the tan belt is the standard wear belt with cammies (BDUs for us Army types).  Do they wear their differently colored belts with daily uniform wear, regardless of uniform?  Just wondering...

Any Marines here that can comment?


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 4, 2003)

Here are some details about the Marine Corps MA program:

http://www.mcu.usmc.mil/sncoa/Downloads/Russel/Martial Arts Handout.doc


----------



## budopunjabi (Feb 4, 2003)

i find it amusing that marines are adopting okinawan arts for their self defence programms. These arts were developed a long time ago, for people with different mentalities to marines and trained in them a differing manner to the way they are being taught to soldiers. Budo warriors lived the spirit every day and were therefore able to put their arts to use in self defence. Its not something that can be taught easily to make  the original Bunkai's practical for use by marines in today's world. The art needs to be nurtured for years and must be part of the person, not simply taught in courses. If you ask me, they'd be better off learning something like Krav Maga for self defence.

In Budo


----------



## cali_tkdbruin (Feb 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *Yeah......no kidding.
> 
> 
> ...



Semper Fi... :asian:


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by budopunjabi _
> * i find it amusing that marines are adopting okinawan arts for their self defence programms. *



I dont. I think it makes perfect sense.



> _Originally posted by budopunjabi _
> * These arts were developed a long time ago, for people with different mentalities to marines and trained in them a differing manner to the way they are being taught to soldiers. *



People seem to make this statement a lot as if people 100 years ago punched and kicked differently. 
different mentalities..self preservation is always the same mentality.
Can you tell us exactly the methods used for training long ago????




> _Originally posted by budopunjabi _
> * Budo warriors lived the spirit every day and were therefore able to put their arts to use in self defence. *



You dont think being stationed in Trashcanistan or the Middle east would give you the chance to to put your *** on the line everyday????
I would take my chances in ancient Okinawa over the present-day Middle East any day




> _Originally posted by budopunjabi _
> * Its not something that can be taught easily to make  the original Bunkai's practical for use by marines in today's world. *



Obviously they did make it practical for todays Marine.BTW, have you seen them train? Have you tried working out with them? Maybe when you can answer yes to both questions I will regard your comments more seriously.



> _Originally posted by budopunjabi _
> *  If you ask me, they'd be better off learning something like Krav Maga for self defence.
> *



Well, I have seen Krav Maga and know someone who taught it in the Israeli Army and can tell you it is pretty much crap. I know it has gotten a lot of hype and become the new "buzz word" in the MA world because certain movie stars go off and train with the Israeli Army for a couple of weeks and come back and make a movie but it is still over rated.


----------



## budopunjabi (Feb 5, 2003)

I take your point about Krav Maga.

But do you honestly think the soldiers, and their instructors fully understand the philosophy and applicaitons of a Kata, such as Seunchin to the full extent that the masters did in Okinawa? I think not.


The Okinawan people developed this form as their weapons were banned by the Samurai, and so they had to develop a form of fighting without weaponry that has similar effects on the human body. Do you  think the instructors have full working knowledge of how the human body works? The different Meridian points in the body, how to shut down organs, cause temporary paralasis to an opponent? I dont think so, simply because they live in a world different to 1800's okinawa where one could dedicate their whole life to the study of this great art. As for the essence of the art, the soldeirs only learn how to kill, defend, to me that is only a fraction of what the art can do for a human being.

In Budo


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by budopunjabi _
> *  The Okinawan people developed this form as their weapons were banned by the Samurai, *



You need to get some more research time in.
King Sho Hashi instigated a weapons ban in Okinawa 100 years before the Samurai of Japan ever arrived. 



> _Originally posted by budopunjabi _
> *  Do you  think the instructors have full working knowledge of how the human body works? The different Meridian points in the body, how to shut down organs, cause temporary paralasis to an opponent? *



Like I said..when you have trained with one of them, or at least seen them first hand, then I will give your comments more credibility.



> _Originally posted by budopunjabi _
> *  I dont think so, simply because they live in a world different to 1800's okinawa where one could dedicate their whole life to the study of this great art.
> In Budo *



What was it like to train in the 1800sdo you really know?

Budopunjabi, 

Some friendly advice.
You seem awfully gungho to post what you consider to be in depth knowledge about Okinawa, its history and fighting traditions but you should be made aware that some of your comments are off and there are several people on Martial Talk that train or have trained in Okinawa extensively. Me being one of them.
So, you may want to read through some of the posts on MT and find out that there are people on here that have more than trivial knowledge on Okinawa.


----------



## budopunjabi (Feb 5, 2003)

I have trained with them.

I have trained extensively in Okinawa.

I have many collegues in the Armed Forces


In Budo

PS: I respect your comments as well. I do not wish to call ill feeling.


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by budopunjabi _
> *I have trained with them. *



How many years?



> _Originally posted by budopunjabi _
> *I have trained extensively in Okinawa. *



With whom and how long?



> _Originally posted by budopunjabi _
> *I have many collegues in the Armed Forces
> *



That's not what I said.
WHEN YOU HAVE SEEN FIRST HAND OR ACTUALLY TRAINED WITH A MEMBER OF THE U.S. MARINE CORPS' MA PROGRAM THEN,AND ONLY THEN WILL I RESPECT YOUR COMMENTS ON THE SUBJECT.

Did I come in loud and clear?


----------



## budopunjabi (Feb 5, 2003)

You seem v. sure of your abilities and seem to be in love with the marine corps training programm.


I havnt told you an ounce of what I know or have done, and in response to you, I dont think your knowledge burries mine, but instead wouldnt scratch the surface. 

In Budo


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by budopunjabi _
> *  You seem v. sure of your abilities and seem to be in love with the marine corps training programm.*



Not in love with it.
But I have seen it and feel I am qualified to have an opinion about what I saw..............where yours is based on WHAT?  




> _Originally posted by budopunjabi _
> * I havnt told you an ounce of what I know or have done, and in response to you, I dont think your knowledge burries mine, but instead wouldnt scratch the surface.
> *



Yeah right........all I and others have to do is look at the posts you have made here and can tell the depth and scope of your knowledge on the subjects I mentioned.
Anytime you think you know more just step up to the plate.


----------



## DKI Girl (Feb 5, 2003)

budopunjabi

Some friendly advice....RyuShiKan thinks he is correct on any topic concerning martial arts....and that no one elses opinion matters.  So it's just not worth it to get into an argument with him over opinions or your training versus his training....it's a dead end and will get you no where.

From the first day I posted on this forum he has done nothing but attack my credibility and my insructor.  So if you just ignore him like I do then you will find some good people on this forum that you can talk with and learn from.

dki girl


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DKI Girl _
> *  budopunjabi
> 
> Some friendly advice....RyuShiKan thinks he is correct on any topic concerning martial arts....and that no one elses opinion matters. *



That couldnt be rather from the truth. 
I am always glad to hear other opinions as long as they have some basis in reality or are backed by examples of actually experience instead of well I heard it from a guy who knew a guy that read a book that saw a photo of something, something.

You got some facts to support what you say.......I am all ears.




> _Originally posted by DKI Girl _
> * So it's just not worth it to get into an argument with him over opinions or your training versus his training....it's a dead end and will get you no where.
> dki girl *



In your case DkiGirl..it is.
Especially since I started training when you were in diapers.
And started training in tutie and kyusho long before your teacher.




> _Originally posted by DKI Girl _
> *  From the first day I posted on this forum he has done nothing but attack my credibility and my insructor.  So if you just ignore him like I do then you will find some good people on this forum that you can talk with and learn from. *



Thats correct however I wouldn't call it  an attack.
You were posting some outright nonsense about kyusho on here.
You swore up and down how you knew certain things about kyusho and I merely asked you for clarification on more than a few matters and you snuck away without answeringand to date still havent.
I think youre still just peeved because you met someone that is actually licensed in TCM and knows what the hell they are talking and pretty much told you that you didnt have a clue. 

You will find I cannot stand BS artists in the martial art.


It would seem budopunjabi and you are on the same wave length since you both seem to avoid my questions about what you base your opinions on. 

Ill ask again.

Budopunjabi, 

You claim you trained in Okinawa.

You say you trained with them.

How long and with whom did you train in Okinawa?

When you say them whom are you referring to?


DKIGirl, 

Your question still stands from a few months ago.........feel free to go back to thread and answer it.



So do either of you, Budopunjabi & DKIGirl, have any first hand experience with topic at hand?.the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program in case you forgot.
By first hand I mean have you been present for a demonstration of it or actually tried it?
If you have I am all ears and would welcome you educated input


----------



## arnisador (Feb 5, 2003)

Please, keep the discussion polite and respectful.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


----------



## Matt Stone (Feb 5, 2003)

It seems to me that DKI Girl struck the first blow this round...

Budopunjabi - 

I have trained with RyuShiKan.  He is a good friend of mine, perhaps one of the best ones I have ever had.  But that came after I met him to train with him.

He is one of Taika Seiyu Oyata's personal students and is ranked at yondan under him.  He is extremely knowledgeable, and while it may not come across on this forum, he is actually not quite as brusque as he may seem.

DKI Girl and RyuShiKan got into a fight over some issues related to George Dillman and his training under Taika Oyata.  DKI Girl made some comments regarding her training in kyusho under Dillman, and RyuShiKan (who is licensed in traditional Chinese medicine, as well as having trained under Oyata - the man who gave Dillman the bulk of what knowledge he has regarding the subject ) countered with questions that DKI Girl either could not or would not reply to.

Bear that in mind when deciding on whether to take her advice or not.

Bottom line, if you (or anyone) claims a certain thing, they simply need to be prepared to back up their claims with valid sources.  

You said to RyuShiKan - 


> *You seem v. sure of your abilities and seem to be in love with the marine corps training programm.
> 
> I havnt told you an ounce of what I know or have done, and in response to you, I dont think your knowledge burries mine, but instead wouldnt scratch the surface.*



That was quite a presumptious post.  Your profile says little about your background...  Care to share?

You also said -


> *I have trained with them.
> 
> I have trained extensively in Okinawa.
> 
> I have many collegues in the Armed Forces*



I assume by "them" you meant the Marines.  When did you train with them?

If you trained extensively in Okinawa, I know I would enjoy hearing from another source what such training was like.  While I trained in Japan, I have yet to have the opportunity to train in Okinawa...  Perhaps some day.

What do your colleagues in the Armed Forces do?  I am in the US Army, have been for 11 years.  I have been in the Infantry, the Cavalry and now work in the JAG Corps.  I would be curious to know what your military friends do for training, and how they maintain their skills with the hectic pace of military life.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *
> I assume by "them" you meant the Marines.  When did you train with them?
> *






 
I thought he might have been talking about Mr. Miyazato as I doubt he is old enough to have trained with Miyagi.
But then again......budopunjabi wasn't really clear on that point as well as others.
Of course if he were to supply us with his name and the name of the person he supposedly studied with in Okinawa I could make a quick phone call and find outbut I doubt any of that info will be forth coming.


I dont mind other opinions as long as they are supported by some sort of qualifying agent ..however, I do hate BS artists and have no qualms about exposing them.


----------



## budopunjabi (Feb 6, 2003)

Well, i will just leave it here. It seems you are very agitated person and cant stand any other opinion other than your own. Im not gonna get into any more arguments over this, and I certainly dont have to prove my skills or who I have trained to a person I have never met in my life. I dont think you understand the essence of respect for other people's opinions. your friend who posted another reply seems much nicer and i will gladly continue talks with him regarding martial arts. Your talk of my instructor is better than yours, ive been learning longer than you, is all nonsense and from that I can tell your maturity in the martial arts. Your very good at pointing at other people who you dont even know, thats not what i think people aim to learn through martial arts. Im proud of my instructor, and chances are if you knew who he was you wouldnt be making these kind of comments.
In Budo


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 6, 2003)

There is a funny pattern I have noticed on these threads.
Every time someone disagrees with me they accuse me of not wanting to hear others opinions but then won't support theirs with anything. Sounds like a cop out to me.





> _Originally posted by budopunjabi _
> *Well, i will just leave it here. It seems you are very agitated person and cant stand any other opinion other than your own. *



You can cry foul all you want and play the victim but like I have said at least 2 times in this post.I dont mind others opinions as long as they have some tangible basis for it. Several of the folks that made comments about the training are either present US Military or former.
Since you have never actually seen the Marine Corps MA training in person nor have you never done it I really wonder what you base your opinion on. 
I have seen it done 3 feet in front of me and while I dont love it as you misquoted me or took what I said out of context I do think it's not bad. Why dont you show some maturity and qualify your comments/opinions with some reasons.
Give us some detailed examples of techniques used in the Marine Corps MA training that you think should be improved.........or are you just going to trash talk something you have never seen or done?



> _Originally posted by budopunjabi _
> *I certainly dont have to prove my skills or who I have trained to a person I have never met in my life. *



Youre the one that brought up the subject of your extensive training in Okinawa and with them (?) but now you wont say whothats kind of odd. 



> _Originally posted by budopunjabi _
> *Im proud of my instructor, and chances are if you knew who he was you wouldnt be making these kind of comments.
> In Budo *



Enlighten me. 



From 
Phil's Field Guide to Trolls 
An Analysis of Forum Fauna 

-- Contrarian Troll Warning Sign Number Two: Constant references to the forum membership as monolithic. "You guys are all just [descriptor]." "You're a lynch mob." "You all just want to ridicule anyone who disagrees with you." 

-- Contrarian Troll Warning Sign Number Three: Intellectual dishonesty. This is only a mild indicator that is not limited to trolls, but Contrarians display it to a high degree. They will lie about things they've said, pull posts out of context in a manner that changes their meanings significantly, and generally ignore any points for which they have no ready answers.

-- Contrarian Warning Sign Number Five: Attempts to condescend. Pursued by Troll Bashers (see Natural Predators below), the Contrarian will seek refuge in condescending remarks that repeatedly scorn his or her critics as beneath notice -- all the while continuing to respond to them.


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 6, 2003)

Budopunjabi,

Your profile says YKKF which I believe stands for Yudansha KobuJitsu Karate Doat least that is what I came up with on an internet search.

http://www.ykkfindia.org/index.htm

It shows your affiliated to R. Yamanaka which I am guessing is the one and only Ron Yamanaka.
Anyone that wants the scoop on Ron Yamanaka should email Patrick McCarthy. Patrick relayed several lovely stories about him to me years ago. I wouldnt want to repeat them since I might not do as good a job as Patrick can. 

Oddly enough in your Book section you only have Best Karate by Nakayama (someone that I also met several times) which is a Shotokan book. 

From your website:

History of Martial Arts:
Karate is a product of 20th century, 
*( is it? Gee I thought it was much older than that, but I guess my knowledge doesnt scratch the surface of yours) **snipped*

Chinese families emigrated to Okinawa, introducing Kempo to the Ryukyu Islands. In 1609, the Ryukyu islands were conquered by Japanese warlord Shimazu. Because the Okinawans had refused to help shimazu, he issued strict law prohibiting all weapons and martial arts practice. 

*(as I stated before.the weapons ban was in place 100 years before the Japanese got there, which has been recorded in Okinawan law books of the time)*

Just a little gift for you from my own research:
Relations between Toyotomi Hideyoshi, 
the Shimazu Clan and the Ryukyu Kingdom
The Age of Great Trade for the Ryukyu Kingdom came to an end in the 16th century; however, trade with China still remained active. It became economically vital for the Shimazu to allow the Ryukyu Kingdom to continue to exist in name as an independent nation.During this period in Japan, Toyotomi Hideyoshi (one of Japan's three greatest military leaders) unified the whole country and issued an edict requiring other areas of Japan to pay a portion of the military burden. This edict was extended to the then independent nation of the Ryukyu Kingdom via the Shimazu Clan of Satsuma. The demand combined the military burden of the Ryukyus with Satsuma and included the dispatch of an army of 15,000 troops. However, since the Ryukyu Kingdom had no experience in battle, it was exempted from the demand for the troop dispatch and instead was to deliver provisions of rice for 7,000 troops for a period of ten months. Coinciding with this development was the enthronement of a new king in the Ryukyus, King Sho Nei. This increased the economic difficulty of the kingdom due to the requirement they had to welcome the Chinese investiture envoys. The suzerain relationship the Ryukyu Kingdom had with Ming China had been the most important relation for them. The Ryukyu worried that if they acceded to the Japanese demands it would negatively affect their relations with China. They heatedly debated this within the court. Finally, fearful of an impending attack from the Shimazu should the demands be rejected, they agreed to pay half the amount of the military burden.


----------



## Johnathan Napalm (Feb 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> Well, I have seen Krav Maga and know someone who taught it in the Israeli Army and can tell you it is pretty much crap. I know it has gotten a lot of hype and become the new "buzz word" in the MA world because certain movie stars go off and train with the Israeli Army for a couple of weeks and come back and make a movie but it is still over rated.



That is not a fair statement.  KM has its niche as a simple and yet effective self defence skill. It does not equip you to go buttheading with a MA expert, nor to win at Lumpinee Stadium.  The majority of the population will never become a first class martial art expert. If KM equips them to at least try to defend themselves on the rare occassion when they need to, it serves its purpose.


----------



## Johnathan Napalm (Feb 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by budopunjabi _
> I havnt told you an ounce of what I know or have done, and in response to you, I dont think your knowledge burries mine, but instead wouldnt scratch the surface.
> 
> In Budo



Please do enlighten us


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm _
> *That is not a fair statement.  KM has its niche as a simple and yet effective self defence skill. It does not equip you to go buttheading with a MA expert, nor to win at Lumpinee Stadium.  The majority of the population will never become a first class martial art expert. If KM equips them to at least try to defend themselves on the rare occassion when they need to, it serves its purpose. *




I think it is totally fair.
Especially given its press coverage as being such a hot sxxt martial art.


----------



## Johnathan Napalm (Feb 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DKI Girl _
> budopunjabi
> 
> Some friendly advice....RyuShiKan thinks he is correct on any topic concerning martial arts....and that no one elses opinion matters.  So it's just not worth it to get into an argument with him over opinions or your training versus his training....it's a dead end and will get you no where.
> ...



This is not accurate.  RyuShiKan is one of many who does not buy into NTKO. It is unfortunate that you get caught in the middle of this NTKO mess. Your instructor puts his credibility at risk himself.  From reading the posts, most people wish you would distance yourself from the mess.  I don't think people here view you negatively.

RyuShiKan can be "in your face" but he does not cut corner when it comes to factual info.


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm _
> *This is not accurate.  RyuShiKan is one of many who does not buy into NTKO. It is unfortunate that you get caught in the middle of this NTKO mess. Your instructor puts his credibility at risk himself.  From reading the posts, most people wish you would distance yourself from the mess.  I don't think people here view you negatively.
> 
> RyuShiKan can be "in your face" but he does not cut corner when it comes to factual info. *




I will be the first one to applaud DKIGirls enthusiasm for training.
However, I would caution anyone putting faith in frivolous claims in the Martial Arts and people that cant/wont put them to a litmus test of some sort.


----------



## Johnathan Napalm (Feb 10, 2003)

I would say RyuShiKan spares no effort when it comes to battling frivolous claims in the Martial Arts.  :asian:


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm _
> *I would say RyuShiKan spares no effort when it comes to battling frivolous claims in the Martial Arts.  :asian: *




I think I actually waste too much time doing it.


----------



## chufeng (Feb 10, 2003)

Although I've been training for a little while, I think I know too little...

I am frequently amazed at the people (sometimes with "high rank" in other systems) who somehow find me to glean some knowledge of the arts...and am repeatedly disappointed when they leave because what I teach is the basics, over and over and over...and they can't SEE that the art really is THAT simple...

They look for the "incredible" and I only offer the mundane...

They hear of incredible feats...and get confused when I say that the application came from our first form...I don't know if they think I'm pulling the wool over their eyes, or if they thought there was something more to all of this...

I am no different from anyone on this board...I simply train...the secret of the martial arts is to train hard...and be humble...don't look for something "out there." Don't look for the "double-secret technique." Simply look inside...and trust that what you've been given IS enough...what is right in front of you is ALL there is...

...and there ain't no such thing as a "GrandMaster." The few that really deserved that distinction were the most humble of men and the title didn't stick until they were dead...

IMHO
:asian:
chufeng


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *Although I've been training for a little while, I think I know too little...
> 
> I am frequently amazed at the people (sometimes with "high rank" in other systems) who somehow find me to glean some knowledge of the arts...and am repeatedly disappointed when they leave because what I teach is the basics, over and over and over...and they can't SEE that the art really is THAT simple...
> ...




Less is more............


----------



## Matt Stone (Feb 10, 2003)

The battle between DKI Girl and RyuShiKan stems, I think, from the fact that her website promotes her seminars and classes and RyuShiKan has called her out publicly, casting doubt on what she "really" knows or is able to do.

RyuShiKan comes from a much stronger background that Dillman does.  While Dillman has done a lot to popularize aspects of karate that many mini-mall karate schools teaching kids between soccer seasons haven't the first clue about, he is _not_, much to the chagrin of DKI followers, the authority that he makes himself out to be.  Then, when he begins buying into and marketing new age crap like NTKOs, his students and followers have a choice - admit that they have been wasting their time and their teacher was a looney, or continue on with what they are doing and buy into the scam themselves.  Tough choices both ways, really, and I don't envy anyone that finds themselves at that crossroads.

RyuShiKan is one of the nicest guys I know.  No BS, for sure, but nice nonetheless.  It is a simple case of calling it like you see it, and it seems like the public concensus is that anymore Dillman is falling further and further into the bucket of "crap teachers."

I think DKI Girl probably has some good training under her belt, and I would love to exchange info with her on things, but because of our "history" here on MT, I doubt she would see anything I say as having any worth.

It is tough when someone calls you out personally, and even tougher when someone calls out your teacher.  That person _is_ your teacher for a reason - you thought they were worthy of the position due to their knowlede and skill, they earned your respect.  Having all of that questioned and feeling insulted about it must rankle in a nasty way.

And RyuShiKan should have a sign hung around his neck saying "does not play well with others." 

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


----------



## Matt Stone (Feb 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *Less is more............ *



Nah...  "More" is more, "less" is less.  Damn public education system... :angry:



Gambarimasu.
:asian:


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *
> RyuShiKan is one of the nicest guys I know.  No BS, for sure, but nice nonetheless.  *



I see that check I sent you cleared. 



> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *
> And RyuShiKan should have a sign hung around his neck saying "does not play well with others."
> *



I already do.....You mean you didn't notice it the last time we hooked up????


----------



## Matt Stone (Feb 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *I see that check I sent you cleared.*



Yeah, but next time try to write it for more than it is going to cost me to cash it... 



> *I already do.....You mean you didn't notice it the last time we hooked up???? *



Actually, no.  I was too busy getting intimate with the floor, face first.


----------



## chufeng (Feb 10, 2003)

Ryu Shi kan,

At least we have one thing in common...we each, in our own way, can get Matt to eat floor...

I think he is just humoring an old man, on this end...so you must have given him the "come to Jesus" "lights go on" "Oh, that's what Sifu meant," kind of teaching he so sorely needed...and I thank you, because I need a good instructor to take over this region...

:asian:
chufeng


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *Ryu Shi kan,
> 
> At least we have one thing in common...we each, in our own way, can get Matt to eat floor... *



I thought he just kept losing his contact lens. 



> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *I think he is just humoring an old man, on this end...so you must have given him the "come to Jesus" "lights go on" "Oh, that's what Sifu meant," kind of teaching he so sorely needed...and I thank you, because I need a good instructor to take over this region...
> *




Actually I was kind of easy on him compared to my other students that are familiar with me. 

Ask him about Sean who thinks he has to "jack" with me everytime I show him something.


----------



## DKI Girl (Feb 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *snip....
> 
> I think DKI Girl probably has some good training under her belt, and I would love to exchange info with her on things, but because of our "history" here on MT, I doubt she would see anything I say as having any worth.
> ...



Yiliquan1, I would be happy to exchange info with anyone....it just seems that everytime I post anything here, I get flogged by Ryushikan by my "color by numbers" and every other insult that comes to his mind.  

It's not MY fault that he doesn't like what MY instructor teaches or how he learned it or where he learned it.  All I know is that he teaches me valuable information that I enjoy learning.

There are alot of people in DKI that I have learned many things from and there are some things out there too that I don't agree with and don't care to learn.  You can find that in ANY martial art.  

There are alot of things that get constantly blown out of proportion when it comes to DKI and No Touch stuff.  I have NEVER heard any of the instructors or anyone in DKI say that it is an effective method of self defense....just like everything, it will come out with the wash...either it will improve with time or it won't.  Frankly, I think it will.  I don't know how or why it works, but I have seen it and I do believe it.  

I have been working for several years on many different techniques.  Some of them are on my website and some are not.  Do I think that they would work in a fight?  Yes....do I think I have had enough practice do them?  Absolutely not.  But I continue to practice hitting people and seeing what happens.  And yes, 99% of the videos out there that you see will be a DEMONSTRATION video and not done at full speed.  

All I ask is that everyone just stop bashing and open your eyes and maybe focus on something else for a while and we can all talk and learn from each other.

That's all I have wanted to do on this board from day one.  Exchange information.  I love to learn from many different styles and people and I do respect those arts.  

Hopefully this makes sense to you all, but sometimes I get very upset when it's just a constant barage of nasty comments on this board to each other.  It seems that no one is willing to listen and learn from each other.  

dki girl


----------



## Matt Stone (Feb 11, 2003)

*DKI Girl - *



> *Yiliquan1, I would be happy to exchange info with anyone...  it just seems that everytime I post anything here, I get flogged by Ryushikan by my "color by numbers" and every other insult that comes to his mind. *



When I see a website that displays videos of techniques that it claims are combat worthy, but they are only ever displayed at walking speed, I wonder to myself "how do they fare at full speed?"  Do you ever practice these techniques at tempos more closely approximating a real encounter?  In Yiliquan, we walk through techniques at first, sure.  You have to be comfy with the combination to be comfy at full speed.  However, in short order, we are cranking away at the fastest speed possible with the maximum amount of contact and power short of fully incapacitating your partner...  Do you do this?



> *There are alot of people in DKI that I have learned many things from and there are some things out there too that I don't agree with and don't care to learn. You can find that in ANY martial art. *



Amen to that.



> *There are alot of things that get constantly blown out of proportion when it comes to DKI and No Touch stuff. I have NEVER heard any of the instructors or anyone in DKI say that it is an effective method of self defense....just like everything, it will come out with the wash...either it will improve with time or it won't. Frankly, I think it will. I don't know how or why it works, but I have seen it and I do believe it.*



So nobody is claiming that NTKO is useful in self defense...  So why do it?  With the body of qigong training and information that exists over 5000 years of Chinese history, why is it this technique hasn't been developed if it is a legitimate method?  Why is it it is such a hit-or-miss method by those claiming the ability to do it?  If I were only almost able to do a jumping back kick, I wouldn't go out in public proclaiming the ability to do it, selling the info at seminars, and then trying to caveat my inability to perform consistently with the technique by saying "I haven't fully developed it yet."  Either it works or it doesn't.

But you are right.  All things become clear with time.  However I think Mr. Dillman has taken that first turn on the road toward obscurity by claiming an ability to do such a dubious thing...

I understand that you have had less than favorable exchanges with members of this board.  Perhaps we _all_ need to remember to keep our minds open when dealing with others, injured parties as well as the injurers...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 12, 2003)

Actually I wouldnt mind meeting DKIgirl and here dojo mates sometime in the future.
Be it here or there. (This is not an Internet challenge by the way)
I think things become a lot clearer when people actually meet and can see what your talking about.
If she or anyone from her dojo people ever has the chance to visit Japan I hope they look me up and stop by and say howdy. 
I have met with several martial arts groups that have come to Japan on tours either for just a meal or some training. Under both circumstances I have made some good friends.
Anyway, the invitation is open to anyone, not just dkigirl & co., coming here just give me a shout before you come.


----------



## D.Cobb (Mar 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *And RyuShiKan should have a sign hung around his neck saying "does not play well with others."
> 
> Gambarimasu.
> :asian: *



That's because "others have a problem with losing"

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: 
--Dave


----------

