# if you want to groin kick. train the inside leg kick.



## drop bear (Dec 18, 2014)

The reason being you can train the same movement in a resisted situation. Without having to kick people in the groin.

a perfectly reasonable way to gain timing and power with a technique is to train it against a resisted opponent. This is difficult with a groin kick as very few people will get kicked in the groin on purpose. So to gain the timing and power needed we can use an existing kick and change the angle a bit.

this kick is effective to the inner leg anyway. The set ups are the same. The openings are the same. If you can reach the inner leg. You can reach the groin.

kicking to the leg will provide a real reaction that you can work the rest of your combinations off.

i prefer this to relying solely on pads or compliant drills.


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## drop bear (Dec 18, 2014)




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## Buka (Dec 18, 2014)

I hear that, bro. A kick to the groin or inner thigh is a great technique to close distance and get to work.


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## Danny T (Dec 18, 2014)

Like it much, we work the inside leg kick often.


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## ballen0351 (Dec 19, 2014)

Wait before  you said the vertical roundhouse was the best groin kick.


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## Chris Parker (Dec 19, 2014)

Without wading back into the mess that this thread sprouted from… 



drop bear said:


> If you want to groin kick, train the inside leg kick.



Hmm… gonna disagree with that off the bat… let's look at why.



drop bear said:


> The reason being you can train the same movement in a resisted situation. Without having to kick people in the groin.



It's not the same movement, so, no. Additionally, training it in a "resisted situation" is far from the only method, the most consistent method, or the best method for all techniques… leaving off the idea that a "resisted situation" is far from a specific method itself.



drop bear said:


> a perfectly reasonable way to gain timing and power with a technique is to train it against a resisted opponent.



It can be, yeah. That doesn't make it the be all, end all, of course… or the only method to do so… 



drop bear said:


> This is difficult with a groin kick as very few people will get kicked in the groin on purpose. So to gain the timing and power needed we can use an existing kick and change the angle a bit.



Uh, no. You'd be working the "timing and power" of a different kick… but here's the thing… you can work on the timing of the kick without going full power (in a sparring style situation, or in an established technique), and you can train power separately… there's no reason you need to train both at the same time, and not everything needs to be done to it's extreme to be effectively trained. If you disagree, my question would be how many times you break someone's arm when you train an arm bar… 



drop bear said:


> this kick is effective to the inner leg anyway.



An inner-leg kick is, yeah… hell, I'll drop you with one, quite easily (note: generic "you" there…), but it's not the same kick as a groin kick, in a number of ways, least of which being the target chosen.



drop bear said:


> The set ups are the same.



No, they're not. The set-up for a groin kick has the lead foot turned less than for a turning (inner thigh) kick… the hips are set up in a different position (straighter-on for the groin kick, turned more for the inner thigh), the shoulders are angled differently, the kicking impact surface can be different (depending on the system), the weight transfer is different, and so on.



drop bear said:


> The openings are the same.



No, they're not. If the groin is open, you're in front of the opponent, facing directly towards them. For an inner thigh kick, you need to be angled around to the side, coming in 90 degrees to the leg itself. The difference in the opening can be as much as around 30 degrees.



drop bear said:


> If you can reach the inner leg. You can reach the groin.



Possibly, but one will be a better chosen kick, based on the position, the angle, the relative target, and so on. Just because you can reach both doesn't make each of them equal in choice.



drop bear said:


> kicking to the leg will provide a real reaction that you can work the rest of your combinations off.



So will kicking the groin… just different reactions, giving different combinations. But here's where you're confusing your own argument… you started this by saying that you can substitute a turning, inner thigh kick for a straight groin kick in training in order to train with impact and timing (for the groin kick), but now you've started giving reasons for the superiority of a turning inner thigh kick over a groin kick… which is the opposite of your argument to begin with.



drop bear said:


> i prefer this to relying solely on pads or compliant drills.



And that's fine, but that's you. There are many other training methods that others will prefer.


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## drop bear (Dec 19, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> Wait before  you said the vertical roundhouse was the best groin kick.



which would be that inner leg kick aimed at the groin.

now you wanted a cool name for it. So you got one.

(but just between you and me it is the same kick)


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## RTKDCMB (Dec 19, 2014)

drop bear said:


> which would be that inner leg kick aimed at the groin.



Wouldn't that then be a groin kick?


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## drop bear (Dec 19, 2014)

Chris Parker said:


> Without wading back into the mess that this thread sprouted from…
> 
> 
> 
> ...



ok lets look at the arm bar thing. I have arm barred a lot of people in fights and have only ever broken one guys arm. And dislocated a few shoulders here and there.

 The arm bar works resisted exactly in training as it does in self defence in that it controlled the opponent and hurts like hell. From there you can attach a theory from evidence of arms being broken in arm locks that you could possibly break an arm with it.

so it is not really like a strike that has not controlled an opponent working because of theory.

this is why if you can it is beneficial to train things resisted. Training power is not the same thing as being able to land a powerful strike. There is more involved.

ok this different kick idea. When an inside leg kick hits the groin without any alteration at all. It is effective. As shown in the video. That kick is no different to the inside leg kick. That kick was an inside leg kick. Same timing. Same opening.same combinations.

in resisted training it is a requirement to adjust the angle of every kick you throw because your target and yourself are moving. You physically could not train resisted if you could not aim kicks where you wanted them to go.

(and as a side note it is harder to consistently aim a kick at that inner leg moving under stress than to hit the groin)


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## drop bear (Dec 19, 2014)

RTKDCMB said:


> Wouldn't that then be a groin kick?



that is my argument yes.

but there is a counter theory that a groin kick is a different kick. Trained separately and called something cool in Japanese.

i don't think you need separate kicks unless you have some unique situation where you cant land the inner leg.


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## RTKDCMB (Dec 20, 2014)

drop bear said:


> that is my argument yes.
> 
> but there is a counter theory that a groin kick is a different kick. Trained separately and called something cool in Japanese.
> 
> i don't think you need separate kicks unless you have some unique situation where you cant land the inner leg.


The kick in the karate video is not just a groin kick, it can be use to attack the head or body of a doubled over opponent, it is basically a front kick with the shin or instep.


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## drop bear (Dec 20, 2014)

RTKDCMB said:


> The kick in the karate video is not just a groin kick, it can be use to attack the head or body of a doubled over opponent, it is basically a front kick with the shin or instep.



yeah i have said that as well. Pretty much why you can train that kick to a body part that wont get you kicked out of a gym. And then have a real chance of hitting a body part that will.


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## ballen0351 (Dec 20, 2014)

drop bear said:


> which would be that inner leg kick aimed at the groin.
> 
> now you wanted a cool name for it. So you got one.
> 
> (but just between you and me it is the same kick)


And your wrong.  No matter how much you wish upon a star your wrong.  Calling a cat a dog 1000 times doesn't change the cat.


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## Chris Parker (Dec 20, 2014)

drop bear said:


> which would be that inner leg kick aimed at the groin.
> 
> now you wanted a cool name for it. So you got one.
> 
> (but just between you and me it is the same kick)



An inner leg kick will be angled around towards the inner leg… which would not be "vertical"… in fact, if it was vertical, it can't be a "roundhouse" kick… that was the point people were making.

Oh, and between you and me, they aren't the same kick.



drop bear said:


> ok lets look at the arm bar thing. I have arm barred a lot of people in fights and have only ever broken one guys arm. And dislocated a few shoulders here and there.
> 
> The arm bar works resisted exactly in training as it does in self defence in that it controlled the opponent and hurts like hell. From there you can attach a theory from evidence of arms being broken in arm locks that you could possibly break an arm with it.



Yeah… you missed the point. What I was saying was that your argument that you needed to train to the full application is a false equivocation, and I was using the fact that you don't train an arm bar to a break each time to highlight that.



drop bear said:


> so it is not really like a strike that has not controlled an opponent working because of theory.



A strike isn't to "control" an opponent… and frankly, your logic is flawed here. You're advocating kicking to a different target, with a different kick (no matter how much you think they're the same) to show how another kick works without relying on "theory"? Uh… no. You still have theory that the actual target would be hit, and that it would have the effect you're after… so… no.



drop bear said:


> this is why if you can it is beneficial to train things resisted. Training power is not the same thing as being able to land a powerful strike. There is more involved.



Resisted training is, and this'll shock you a bit, rather unrealistic. 

And, yeah, I am more than aware of what is needed and involved to train something to application… for one thing, you need to come to an understanding of what application means in this sense… and in what context that application would take place… 



drop bear said:


> ok this different kick idea. When an inside leg kick hits the groin without any alteration at all. It is effective. As shown in the video. That kick is no different to the inside leg kick. That kick was an inside leg kick. Same timing. Same opening.same combinations.



Look, to be blunt, that video is rather terrible. It shows a sloppy, poorly executed attempted low roundhouse, thrown lazily, which missed it's target entirely. Now, I don't know if this was in the closing moments of a five-round fight, but the kick itself was lacklustre, rather powerless (in the grand scheme of things), and thrown so badly it completely missed it's target, only landing (fairly softly, really) on a more sensitive target by accident rather than design. It's relative "effectiveness" took a fair amount of time to really take effect as well, it must be noted.

In other words, a badly done, poorly and lazily thrown round kick is not the same as a dedicated, trained, specific, or deliberate technique. It is not a groin kick, therefore the same as an inner leg kick, it's a messy low round kick that missed entirely, and was simply lucky to catch another target to have done anything at all. If it had landed where it was supposed to, it would have had little to no effect at all.

Not impressed with that one.



drop bear said:


> in resisted training it is a requirement to adjust the angle of every kick you throw because your target and yourself are moving. You physically could not train resisted if you could not aim kicks where you wanted them to go.



As it is in scenario training, Japanese-style kata geiko, drills, one-steps, and many, many more. And, as far as "you could not train resisted if you could not aim kicks where you wanted them to go", then why are you advocating kicking to a different target than the intended one? Surely that's exactly what you're doing there… 



drop bear said:


> (and as a side note it is harder to consistently aim a kick at that inner leg moving under stress than to hit the groin)



Can be, yeah… that's mainly as the groin is part of the trunk, which doesn't move as much… but there are tricks to getting the inner leg more consistently, if you look for them… 



drop bear said:


> that is my argument yes.



The difference would be if you were looking purely at the target, or if you were looking at the optimal execution of the kick (and it's mechanics). A round kick is not optimal for attacking the groin, therefore it's not what most will consider a "groin kick".



drop bear said:


> but there is a counter theory that a groin kick is a different kick. Trained separately and called something cool in Japanese.



The Japanese name was not to make it "cool", it was to establish firstly what (mechanical) kick you were talking about, and secondly to demonstrate that it already had an established name.



drop bear said:


> i don't think you need separate kicks unless you have some unique situation where you cant land the inner leg.



Okay, how about if you're on the outside of their leg, and their knee is turned inwards? Do you need a separate kick then? How about if you don't want to kick the inner leg, do you need a different kick then? Can you really not see where separate kicks can be needed, or desired?



drop bear said:


> yeah i have said that as well. Pretty much why you can train that kick to a body part that wont get you kicked out of a gym. And then have a real chance of hitting a body part that will.



So what are you saying, people shouldn't bother with groin kicks at all, as inner-thigh kicks are just as good, or that inner thigh kicks are a good training substitute for groin kicks, as you can't kick people in the groin all training? You seem to be going back and forth between these…and they're not the same thing.


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## Transk53 (Dec 20, 2014)

Danny T said:


> Like it much, we work the inside leg kick often.



In Wing Chun?


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## Tez3 (Dec 20, 2014)

I have two issues with kicking to the groin, firstly there is no place for a kick that targets men _delicate_ parts in competition and the second is that aiming at them in a self defence situation isn't something you can take for granted.
So often women and children especially are told to 'hit a man where it hurts' but the first thing a man does when intent on attacking these is to guard his groin, he will be careful not to let it become a target. In a 'man on man' situation in the 'street' situation the opportunities for attacking the groin are likely to be there but in that case why rely on a kick designed to do something else ie kick the inside of the leg which in itself is a good defence, when you could use a kick designed to actually target the groin.
Using an inside leg kick and hoping you can catch the groin is no way to approach defending yourself. It's a perfectly good kick use it for what it's meant for. It's stuff and nonsense to say you only need one or two kicks, why not have kicks that you have trained and use them for the purpose they were designed for. It doesn't make sense to use one kick and try to make it do everything. It's no harder to train a couple of more kicks than it is one kick.


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## tshadowchaser (Dec 20, 2014)

How much resistance is there in a groin kick?  I have never felt much resistance when I kicked someone in the groin unless they where wearing a cup and even then there was not that much. 
I'll agree a groin kick and a inner thigh kick are different unless you have a strange angle of bodily positions when delivering the inner thigh kick, most groin kicks are front kicks but not all


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## drop bear (Dec 20, 2014)

tshadowchaser said:


> How much resistance is there in a groin kick?  I have never felt much resistance when I kicked someone in the groin unless they where wearing a cup and even then there was not that much.
> I'll agree a groin kick and a inner thigh kick are different unless you have a strange angle of bodily positions when delivering the inner thigh kick, most groin kicks are front kicks but not all



resistance as in they are fighting back. So you could spar throwing that kick.


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## Transk53 (Dec 20, 2014)

Training resisted. Does that basically mean you pull your punches and kicks? Like you would unless your going full monty sparring.


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## tshadowchaser (Dec 20, 2014)

ok understood  
mine where usually thrown in sparring or in a fight........ I train throwing them with as much control in strength  and power as I can  but throw them a little harder when sparring and one heck of a lot harder if in a fight.  
And yes I believe in practicing them and was brought into the martial arts when they where allowed in tournaments


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 20, 2014)

Buka said:


> A kick to the groin or inner thigh is a great technique to close distance and get to work.


+1,

I have always believed that a kick can be more than just a kick. Besides to use it to hurt your opponent, It can be used to

- close the distance, and
- set up for something else (such as another kick, punch, clinch, ...).

If you use roundhouse kick to kick your opponent's "leading upper inner leg" with a 90 degree to 45 degree angle, your leading leg will jam into his leading leg. You don't have to worry about his kick and knee at that moment. This way you can concentrate on his punch and elbow. If you can also deal with your opponent's punch or elbow, you may obtain a successful "clinch" that you are looking for (if you are a grappler).


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## drop bear (Dec 20, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> +1,
> 
> I have always believed that a kick can be more than just a kick. Besides to use it to hurt your opponent, It can be used to
> 
> ...



well to deal with the returning punch or kick we normally fire that kick and lean off center.

for an inside leg you can grab it if they check and do all those single leg/ankle pick variations.

if you have groin kicked them and they lean forward the clinch is there as well.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 20, 2014)

Here is a short clip by using roundhouse kick as "leg jam". I would like to call it "jumping spider".


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## Tez3 (Dec 20, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Here is a short clip by using roundhouse kick as "leg jam". I would like to call it "jumping spider".




Any particular spider? A Mexican red kneed tarantula perhaps or a black widow, make it sound really mean.
I think you will have some Judo chappies coming along soon to tell you what it's really called lol.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 20, 2014)

I like this set up it is a sweet way to aggressively do this throw!


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## drop bear (Dec 20, 2014)

Tez3 said:


> Any particular spider? A Mexican red kneed tarantula perhaps or a black widow, make it sound really mean.
> I think you will have some Judo chappies coming along soon to tell you what it's really called lol.



not everything has to be in Japanese.


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## drop bear (Dec 20, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Here is a short clip by using roundhouse kick as "leg jam". I would like to call it "jumping spider".



that is a wild set up.


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## K-man (Dec 20, 2014)

Tez3 said:


> Any particular spider? A Mexican red kneed tarantula perhaps or a black widow, make it sound really mean.
> I think you will have some Judo chappies coming along soon to tell you what it's really called lol.


Sorry Tez but you are not even close. Kung fu is Chinese so it stands to reason that the spider in question must be Chinese. If it jumps it must be the Chinese jumping spider. Elementary my dear!


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## Tez3 (Dec 20, 2014)

drop bear said:


> not everything has to be in Japanese.




No but in case you hadn't noticed Judo *is *Japanese.


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## drop bear (Dec 20, 2014)

Tez3 said:


> No but in case you hadn't noticed Judo *is *Japanese.



which is true. But i don't think kung fu wang does judo. There is all sorts of interesting Chinese grappling arts out there.

and they may even pre date judo.


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## Tez3 (Dec 20, 2014)

drop bear said:


> which is true. But i don't think kung fu wang does judo. There is all sorts of interesting Chinese grappling arts out there.
> 
> and they may even pre date judo.



 You don't understand, and you have actually said this, how conversation on here works. It's not about Kung Fu Wang doing Judo, and yes there are other grappling arts out there which may predate Judo but trying to explain things to you is like having to explain in minute detail a very funny joke, it really doesn't work.


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## Transk53 (Dec 20, 2014)

K-man said:


> View attachment 19119
> Sorry Tez but you are not even close. Kung fu is Chinese so it stands to reason that the spider in question must be Chinese. If it jumps it must be the Chinese jumping spider. Elementary my dear!



Thank you k-man, just fell out of my chair!


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 20, 2014)

Tez3 said:


> No but in case you hadn't noticed Judo *is *Japanese.


It's a "吸(XI) - Sticky" principle used in Shuai_Chiao (Chinese wrestling) which is similar to this:






this:






and this:






But I'm sure you can find this principle used in Judo as well.

Sorry that I don't intend to turn a "groin kick" thread into a "grappling" thread.


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## Tez3 (Dec 20, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It's a "吸(XI) - Sticky" principle used in Shuai_Chiao (Chinese wrestling) which is similar to this:




Now I like that! That's clever.


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## K-man (Dec 20, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It's a "吸(XI) - Sticky" principle used in Shuai_Chiao (Chinese wrestling) which is similar to this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why not? It makes a heck of a lot more sense than a groin kick to the inner thigh or a 'vertical roundhouse' kick to the groin.


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## RTKDCMB (Dec 21, 2014)

K-man said:


> Why not? It makes a heck of a lot more sense than a groin kick to the inner thigh or a 'vertical roundhouse' kick to the groin.


About the only way to do a vertical roundhouse kick is if you did it whilst lying on the floor.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 21, 2014)

RTKDCMB said:


> About the only way to do a vertical roundhouse kick is if you did it whilst lying on the floor.


 
It still wouldn't be vertical... if you lay on the floor (on your back or side) and do a roundhouse, it's still going to me moving across the body. Else it wouldn't be a roundhouse...


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## RTKDCMB (Dec 21, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> It still wouldn't be vertical... if you lay on the floor (on your back or side) and do a roundhouse, it's still going to me moving across the body. Else it wouldn't be a roundhouse...


Maybe something like this: 

https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3130/2731230811_ea299800fb_b.jpg

Closest thing I could find on what drop bear is talking about.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 21, 2014)

Which, while impressive, really isn't what he's talking about, since he's talking about a "verticle roundhouse" (an oxymoron...) being used as a groin strike. That picture would only apply if the kicker were a smurf fighting an NBA player...

Which might actually be pretty cool to see...


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## Tony Dismukes (Dec 21, 2014)

drop bear said:


> The reason being you can train the same movement in a resisted situation. Without having to kick people in the groin.
> 
> a perfectly reasonable way to gain timing and power with a technique is to train it against a resisted opponent. This is difficult with a groin kick as very few people will get kicked in the groin on purpose. So to gain the timing and power needed we can use an existing kick and change the angle a bit.
> 
> ...



I kind of think you're conflating a few different issues here.

*First*: the *type* of kick to use for targeting the groin. If your opponent has his body angled sidewise to you, then a low roundhouse is absolutely an appropriate tool. This is standard practice in a number of arts. On the other hand, if he's squared up to you, then a front kick is the one you would use.

*Second*: *training methods*. You are unlikely to find training partners who will allow you to deliver full power blows to their unprotected groins no matter what kind of technique you are using - roundhouse kick, front kick, ridge hand, whatever.  Therefore your training will have to modify some aspect of your theoretical real world application.

You can train hard contact to a different target and trust that you will be able to modify the target on the fly in a real situation. This is what you are advocating - sparring with the inside low roundhouse to the leg and having the option to aim a little bit higher in a street fight. Thing is, you can do this just as easily with other techniques - front kicks, uppercuts, whatever. Spar while aiming for a "safe" target and plan to aim for a more vulnerable target if necessary.

You can also train light contact to your actual target and plan on increasing the impact in a real situation. I've done that too - wear a cup and restrict your groin kicks to light taps. You practice developing your kicking power in different training exercises. Once again, this concept can apply no matter which type of kick or other strike you are practicing.

You can also dress your target up in a RedMan suit or some other form of heavy armor that will allow him to safely withstand hard contact shots to the groin. Of course, this will negate most normal, realistic reactions to the strikes, whichever kind you are practicing.

No matter which form of training you choose, you are sacrificing something in the "realism" department. (Personally I advocate working a variety of exercises so that the holes in each training method can cancel each other out.) Regardless, the trade-offs apply no matter which type of kick you are practicing.

*Thirdly*: *terminology*. I'll address this more in your other thread, but I'm a big fan of clarity in language. It's kind of confusing to talk about an "inside leg kick to the groin" or a "vertical roundhouse kick". If I were the one posting this thread I'd probably say something like:

"A low inside roundhouse kick is a good weapon for hitting the groin. You can target the inner thigh in sparring and just raise the kick a little higher to target the groin in a street fight."


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## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 21, 2014)

*Clarity across systems is nice.*  Names for techniques that are thought out and understood easily are nice as well.  Take for instance the aforementioned Abracadabra kick it is simply a fake roundhouse turned into a front kick.  Which is nothing new or special as it has been around a long time.  Having said that Jon Jones delivers it very well!

One of my "pet peeves" with systems is when they do not think out what they name their techniques very well.  It can get to the point where it is incredibly stupid.  I for one *absolutely love* the Dog Brothers martial system as run by Guru Crafty Dog.  However, I cannot stand how he names techniques and principles in his system.  Love the system but think the names border on ridiculousness. (ie. Dog Catcher, Mullet, Fire Hydrant, Dog Catcher, etc, etc.) 

Clarity and easily understood make things nice in my opinion.  Rather than having to explain to me or show me what an Abracadra kick is if someone say's oh it is a fake low roundhouse followed by a front kick.  I can understand that easily right from the get go.


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## Tez3 (Dec 21, 2014)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> *Clarity across systems is nice.*  Names for techniques that are thought out and understood easily are nice as well.  Take for instance the aforementioned Abracadabra kick it is simply a fake roundhouse turned into a front kick.  Which is nothing new or special as it has been around a long time.  Having said that Jon Jones delivers it very well!
> 
> One of my "pet peeves" with systems is when they do not think out what they name their techniques very well.  It can get to the point where it is incredibly stupid.  I for one *absolutely love* the Dog Brothers martial system as run by Guru Crafty Dog.  However, I cannot stand how he names techniques and principles in his system.  Love the system but think the names border on ridiculousness. (ie. Dog Catcher, Mullet, Fire Hydrant, Dog Catcher, etc, etc.)
> 
> Clarity and easily understood make things nice in my opinion.  Rather than having to explain to me or show me what an Abracadra kick is if someone say's oh it is a fake low roundhouse followed by a front kick.  I can understand that easily right from the get go.




Exactly!!

As I said before these names are for marketing purposes. I wish we had thought of that a few years back, we had an absolutely brilliant young MMA fighter, very talented, he fought as a teenager and KO'd with a flying knee Phil 'Billy' Harris who went on to fight in the UFC. However our lad had the public personality of a dead slug, he was a lovely lad but very quiet and somewhat shy. He could fight but couldn't 'entertain'  or promote himself and in the MMA business you need to do that, make people remember you with catchphrases, or a 'bad' persona always smack talking or naming kicks. Jon Jones has done the public awareness bit with 'his kick', clever but it's still a feint roundhouse then a front kick lol.


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## drop bear (Dec 21, 2014)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> *Clarity across systems is nice.*  Names for techniques that are thought out and understood easily are nice as well.  Take for instance the aforementioned Abracadabra kick it is simply a fake roundhouse turned into a front kick.  Which is nothing new or special as it has been around a long time.  Having said that Jon Jones delivers it very well!
> 
> One of my "pet peeves" with systems is when they do not think out what they name their techniques very well.  It can get to the point where it is incredibly stupid.  I for one *absolutely love* the Dog Brothers martial system as run by Guru Crafty Dog.  However, I cannot stand how he names techniques and principles in his system.  Love the system but think the names border on ridiculousness. (ie. Dog Catcher, Mullet, Fire Hydrant, Dog Catcher, etc, etc.)
> 
> Clarity and easily understood make things nice in my opinion.  Rather than having to explain to me or show me what an Abracadra kick is if someone say's oh it is a fake low roundhouse followed by a front kick.  I can understand that easily right from the get go.




depends. I was trying to link one concept to another. Traditionally the inside leg kick and the groin kick are trained in separate manners. So people were still confused. To the point posters could not understand how you would even hit the groin with that inner leg kick.

and people train different systems. I don't feel that i should demand everyone use mma terms. I don't feel i need to know the Japanese for everything.

and look my round house kick really can be different to a karate round house kick. So there would still need to be an explanation.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 21, 2014)

Yet a roundhouse to the inside can be a leg kick or a groin kick.  Not really confusing just a matter of targeting.  In IRT we train roundhouse kicks to the groin all the time and with armor so you can fully kick there.  Of course the opponents stance would dictate which kick to use a roundhouse kick or a front kick depending on if the groin is covered from the front or open from the front. 

I would not demand anyone use terms I use but overall I have tried to stay concise and simple with what I use.  Vertical roundhouse is confusing and frankly it is a front kick.  So 99% of the people out there are going to call it that.  It just confuses things.  It is one of the things I do not like about Eddie Bravo's system.  I love the movement but hate the names. 

In regards to the look feel of roundhouse kicks yes they can look some what different and also hit with different parts of the leg ie. instep or shin.  Still in the end they are a roundhouse kick.


----------



## drop bear (Dec 21, 2014)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Yet a roundhouse to the inside can be a leg kick or a groin kick.  Not really confusing just a matter of targeting.  In IRT we train roundhouse kicks to the groin all the time and with armor so you can fully kick there.  Of course the opponents stance would dictate which kick to use a roundhouse kick or a front kick depending on if the groin is covered from the front or open from the front.
> 
> 
> I would not demand anyone use terms I use but overall I have tried to stay concise and simple with what I use.  Vertical roundhouse is confusing and frankly it is a front kick.  So 99% of the people out there are going to call it that.  It just confuses things.  It is one of the things I do not like about Eddie Bravo's system.  I love the movement but hate the names.
> ...



i was trying to answer this question.

"How do you roundhouse someone in the groin standing in front of them"

i had already mentioned that you change the angle of the kick. And was trying to simplify it. This was linked to the idea that you can train a groin kick by training the inside leg kick.

now a groin kick is traditionally a different chamber. And so not really the same kick.

and for the life of me i don't know why.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Dec 21, 2014)

drop bear said:


> i was trying to answer this question.
> 
> "How do you roundhouse someone in the groin standing in front of them"



The person who asked that question was probably thinking about an opponent standing square to you rather than in an angled fighting stance.



drop bear said:


> now a groin kick is traditionally a different chamber. And so not really the same kick.
> 
> and for the life of me i don't know why.



Do you mean you don't know why the round house kick to the groin uses a different chamber or why the different chamber would mean a different kick?

Regarding the first, it doesn't necessarily use a different chamber. I've seen systems that use the exact same action whether the kick is targeting the leg or the groin. The only difference is that the kick goes a little higher.

Regarding the second, it's again down to the system (or the individual). Some folks like to use different names for every small variation on a technique, while others like to just use one umbrella term to cover a host of variations.


----------



## K-man (Dec 21, 2014)

drop bear said:


> i was trying to answer this question.
> 
> "How do you roundhouse someone in the groin standing in front of them"
> 
> ...


??? One minute you are saying it is the same kick, now you're saying it's not. 

In karate almost all kicks come from some form of chamber. To me that does two things. It telegraphs your intention and it robs your technique of power. I don't teach them that way for those reasons. They are fine for point sparring but not as effective as other kicks for the street. The Muay Thai kicks come from the hip and the leg extends until the moment of contact meaning that it delivers maximum power.






You cannot do that kick to the groin from in front and to me it would be a waste of effort to use it as a groin strike. It certainly could be used to target the inner thigh.

If you look at the groin kicks in this video they do not come from chamber and could not be directed to the inner thigh. 






No matter how you want to dress it up, a groin kick is a groin kick.


----------



## drop bear (Dec 21, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> The person who asked that question was probably thinking about an opponent standing square to you rather than in an angled fighting stance.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



terminology i get. Whether you want to call every different movement something new is fine.
 The training methodology i don't. All of this stemmed from the idea that to train a strike the other guy needs to act like he has been struck. Because you cant train a groin kick live.

my view is you can by using the inner leg kick as a substitute.


----------



## drop bear (Dec 21, 2014)

K-man said:


> ??? One minute you are saying it is the same kick, now you're saying it's not.
> 
> In karate almost all kicks come from some form of chamber. To me that does two things. It telegraphs your intention and it robs your technique of power. I don't teach them that way for those reasons. They are fine for point sparring but not as effective as other kicks for the street. The Muay Thai kicks come from the hip and the leg extends until the moment of contact meaning that it delivers maximum power.
> 
> ...



kyokashin use chambered kicks. And can throw them hard enough to hurt you and in a manner that they are hard to defend.

so you may not chamber. But there are people who fight full contact that can make that kick work.


----------



## K-man (Dec 21, 2014)

drop bear said:


> kyokashin use chambered kicks. And can throw them hard enough to hurt you and in a manner that they are hard to defend.
> 
> so you may not chamber. But there are people who fight full contact that can make that kick work.


Did you ever train a martial art? I don't dispute that a chambered kick can hurt or knock someone out. Again if you read my posts properly you might learn something! Chambered kicks are great for sport but not for the street.

What I said was chambering *telegraphs your intention and robs your technique of power*. What part of that do you think is wrong?


----------



## drop bear (Dec 22, 2014)

K-man said:


> Did you ever train a martial art? I don't dispute that a chambered kick can hurt or knock someone out. Again if you read my posts properly you might learn something! Chambered kicks are great for sport but not for the street.
> 
> What I said was chambering *telegraphs your intention and robs your technique of power*. What part of that do you think is wrong?



lol. You even martial art bro?

The bit i think is wrong is the bit about the chamber telegraphing the kick and robbing it of its power.

and the bit about a chambered kick being good for sport but not good for self defence.


if a trained fighter cannot stop that kick and cannot absorb the damage of that kick. And he is facing these kicks all the time.

Where does this street attacker develop skills and tactics to do so?

otherwise i agree.


----------



## drop bear (Dec 22, 2014)

See this is where i could find you a guy who chambers his kicks and challenge you to stop them. We have a karate champion who chambers his kicks. And i cant stop them. My coach. (second best welterweight in Australia) struggles to stop them.

k man i am sorry but you are not going to stop those kicks. Not in the ring. Not in the street.


----------



## K-man (Dec 22, 2014)

drop bear said:


> See this is where i could find you a guy who chambers his kicks and challenge you to stop them. We have a karate champion who chambers his kicks. And i cant stop them. My coach. (second best welterweight in Australia) struggles to stop them.
> 
> k man i am sorry but you are not going to stop those kicks. Not in the ring. Not in the street.


Comprehension is not your strong point.  Whether you stop them or not is not the issue. I repeat again what I wrote about chambering ... *"It telegraphs your intention and it robs your technique of power." *And of course not everyone is a karate champion. We are talking about everyday martial artists, not the exceptions.


----------



## drop bear (Dec 22, 2014)

K-man said:


> Comprehension is not your strong point.  Whether you stop them or not is not the issue. I repeat again what I wrote about chambering ... *"It telegraphs your intention and it robs your technique of power." *And of course not everyone is a karate champion. We are talking about everyday martial artists, not the exceptions.



look you can restate your opinion as boldly as you want. But if i cant stop a kick from hitting me and cant take the damage it does. Telegraphed intention and robbed of power is hardly a description i would use for that style of kicking.

i would say more accurately comes out of nowhere and bloody hurts.


----------



## drop bear (Dec 22, 2014)

Actually this reminds me of a sparring story where our karate guy knocked a guy out with a kick.

when he woke up his comment was "i saw that coming"

if he had seen that coming he would not have been put to sleep by it.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Dec 22, 2014)

drop bear said:


> See this is where i could find you a guy who chambers his kicks and challenge you to stop them. We have a karate champion who chambers his kicks. And i cant stop them. My coach. (second best welterweight in Australia) struggles to stop them.
> 
> k man i am sorry but you are not going to stop those kicks. Not in the ring. Not in the street.


Just because you and your coach have poor defensive skills it doesn't mean everyone else has.


----------



## K-man (Dec 22, 2014)

RTKDCMB said:


> Just because you and your coach have poor defensive skills it doesn't mean everyone else has.


Touché.


----------



## K-man (Dec 22, 2014)

drop bear said:


> look you can restate your opinion as boldly as you want. But if i cant stop a kick from hitting me and cant take the damage it does. Telegraphed intention and robbed of power is hardly a description i would use for that style of kicking.
> 
> i would say more accurately comes out of nowhere and bloody hurts.


May God help you if you ever encounter a Muay Thai kick! They have far more power and are even harder to stop.


----------



## drop bear (Dec 22, 2014)

RTKDCMB said:


> Just because you and your coach have poor defensive skills it doesn't mean everyone else has.



me my coach and everyone this guy fought to become the karate champion that he is.


----------



## K-man (Dec 22, 2014)

Good luck to you. You are obviously a far greater martial artist than I could ever aspire to. I'm out of here.


----------



## Transk53 (Dec 22, 2014)

drop bear said:
			
		

> *We have a karate champion who chambers his kicks.*



Why is it called chamber? Seems quite a strange term to me.


----------



## Earl Weiss (Dec 22, 2014)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> *Clarity across systems is nice.*  Names for techniques that are thought out and understood easily are nice as well.  ......................................
> 
> Clarity and easily understood make things nice in my opinion.  Rather than having to explain to me or show me what an Abracadra kick is if someone say's oh it is a fake low roundhouse followed by a front kick.  I can understand that easily right from the get go.



1. I am a big fan of names that are intuitive as well, butt sometimes they are only easily understood because the name has been explained or understood. take for instance;
2. "Roundhouse"   do you really go around some house as you do the kick?   IIRC the name of course is an extension of the name for the hand tehnique which went around the guard (house) of the opponent resulting in the shorthand "'round house"


----------



## K-man (Dec 22, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> Why is it called chamber? Seems quite a strange term to me.


It's like cocking the leg before shooting the foot out. There's a thread here discussing it ... Wing Chun Kicking No chambering required. MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community

Here's an example from karate.


----------



## Earl Weiss (Dec 22, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> Why is it called chamber? Seems quite a strange term to me.



It's a gun analogy. Before you can shoot the bullet, it has to move or be put into the Chamber of the weapon.


----------



## drop bear (Dec 22, 2014)

K-man said:


> May God help you if you ever encounter a Muay Thai kick! They have far more power and are even harder to stop.



who did you train Thai with?


----------



## Transk53 (Dec 22, 2014)

Earl Weiss said:


> It's a gun analogy. Before you can shoot the bullet, it has to move or be put into the Chamber of the weapon.



Yeah fella, that is why I thought it was a strange term to use. Thanks.


----------



## ballen0351 (Dec 22, 2014)

What's this Karate Champs name?  What's he a champ of?  And why if you see him chamber do you stand there and let him kick you?


----------



## RTKDCMB (Dec 22, 2014)

K-man said:


> It's like cocking the leg before shooting the foot out.
> 
> Here's an example from karate.



I had a different interpretation of what the chamber means, as in being an integral part of the kick as in the following video at 0:36. At 0:27 he telegraphs the kick.


K-man said:


>


----------



## Transk53 (Dec 22, 2014)

K-man said:


> It's like cocking the leg before shooting the foot out. There's a thread here discussing it ... Wing Chun Kicking No chambering required. MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community



Thank you k-man, that was very useful.


----------



## drop bear (Dec 22, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> What's this Karate Champs name?  What's he a champ of?  And why if you see him chamber do you stand there and let him kick you?



guy thrupp.
Australia.
and because he shows me how to kick


----------



## ballen0351 (Dec 22, 2014)

So because he teaches you how to kick you let him kick you?


----------



## drop bear (Dec 22, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> So because he teaches you how to kick you let him kick you?



there is confusion here. K man can see the chamber and finds the power of that sort of kick lacking 

i find he kicks quite effective.


----------



## drop bear (Dec 22, 2014)

Now i know muay Thai guys who kick hard as well. So if this becomes a vs thread my vote is i don't know. Personal preference. I guess.


----------



## Transk53 (Dec 22, 2014)

@drop bear. I take when you let the instructor kick you, you are padded up?


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Dec 22, 2014)

K-man said:


> In karate almost all kicks come from some form of chamber. To me that does two things. It telegraphs your intention and it robs your technique of power. I don't teach them that way for those reasons. They are fine for point sparring but not as effective as other kicks for the street.



There are pros and cons to chambering your kicks, and I certainly won't argue with someone who prefers one over the other. That said, chambering kicks predates point sparring in quite a number of systems and there are plenty of karate/kung fu/savate/etc practitioners out there who can deliver chambered kicks which are both powerful and hard to read.



drop bear said:


> terminology i get. Whether you want to call every different movement something new is fine.
> The training methodology i don't. All of this stemmed from the idea that to train a strike the other guy needs to act like he has been struck. Because you cant train a groin kick live.



I think we may have another failure to communicate here. No one said that you need a training partner acting out his reaction in order to train a groin kick (or any other kick). The points made were that you might want your training partner acting out a reaction ...
a) in a demo, such as the one being discussed in the previous thread, or
b) when training a specific sequence that builds off of a specific reaction to your initial strike.

This isn't specific to groin kicks. Let's say you wanted to drill or demo a combination where you lift your opponent's chin up with an uppercut in order to expose him to a right cross. Are you really going to hit your training partner with a full strength uppercut every time you demo or drill the combination?


----------



## drop bear (Dec 22, 2014)

I don't have an issue with demos or drills. I have an issue with only training demos and drills. 

 it is rare that we would drill a strike that requires our posture to be broken. So the uppercut probably wouldn't tip the chin up in a drill.

most of our striking drills are Dutch drills.

i am trying to think of a striking circumstance where we would do that. We would certainly give a feed like a slow strike.

it may tip the chin up in sparring. In which case you could practice it there.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Dec 22, 2014)

drop bear said:


> I don't have an issue with demos or drills. I have an issue with only training demos and drills.



I absolutely agree with you there. I'm not sure anyone was advocating only training demos and drills, though.



drop bear said:


> it is rare that we would drill a strike that requires our posture to be broken. So the uppercut probably wouldn't tip the chin up in a drill.



That's fair enough. I don't consider drilling sequences which build on expected reactions to being hit an essential part of my training either. That said, they have their place in many peoples training. As long as you don't exclusively train for the reactions you imagine you are going to get, I don't think it's a problem.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 22, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> Why is it called chamber? Seems quite a strange term to me.


It's like a spring. You have to compress it first so when you release it, you will generate the maximum power. Unfortunately in combat, when both you and your opponent are moving in combat speed, you may not have the luxury to do your "maximum compression".

I do agree that "maximum compression" may telegraph your intention sometime.


----------



## Transk53 (Dec 22, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It's like a spring. You have to compress it first so when you release it, you will generate the maximum power. Unfortunately in combat, when both you and your opponent are moving in combat speed, you may not have the luxury to do your "maximum compression".
> 
> I do agree that "maximum compression" may telegraph your intention sometime.



Yeah surely. I would also think that some moves would be quite obvious, like a ankle tap for example.


----------



## K-man (Dec 22, 2014)

Guys, I'm out of here but I'd like to discuss it further with 'supporting members'.  

(Anyone else wanting to join in, purchase a membership.  )


----------



## Transk53 (Dec 22, 2014)

K-man said:


> Guys, I'm out of here but I'd like to discuss it further with 'supporting members'.
> 
> (Anyone else wanting to join in, purchase a membership.  )



Cool  Take no notice of anything I have said though!!


----------



## drop bear (Dec 22, 2014)

This thread needs some Andy hug.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Dec 23, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> So because he teaches you how to kick you let him kick you?


So much for aliveness in training.


----------



## Chris Parker (Dec 25, 2014)

drop bear said:


> i was trying to answer this question.
> 
> "How do you roundhouse someone in the groin standing in front of them"



And, it seems, the answer to that has been "by accident".



drop bear said:


> i had already mentioned that you change the angle of the kick. And was trying to simplify it. This was linked to the idea that you can train a groin kick by training the inside leg kick.



By changing the angle of the kick, you change the position of the hips, which changes the orientation of the leg, which changes the position of the support leg… all of which makes it a very different kick.



drop bear said:


> now a groin kick is traditionally a different chamber. And so not really the same kick.
> 
> and for the life of me i don't know why.



You don't know why a different kick, with a different set up, a different angle, a different striking surface (in many cases), a different hip and support leg position, a different primary target, and more is a different kick? Are you sure about that?



drop bear said:


> terminology i get. Whether you want to call every different movement something new is fine.
> The training methodology i don't. All of this stemmed from the idea that to train a strike the other guy needs to act like he has been struck. Because you cant train a groin kick live.
> 
> my view is you can by using the inner leg kick as a substitute.



And, I gotta tell you, that's a deeply flawed idea. For one thing, you get me to kick you in the inner thigh instead of the groin, you're still not going to want to stand there and take it as a training method… trust me, I kick you there, you drop. But hey, that's just the way we kick to that target…

The reality is that there is always some compromise for safety versus realism in all training methods. That's just the way it has to be… to train a kick that's not a groin kick in order to train a groin kick, as you think training an actual groin kick is too dangerous, or not possible, is just to be completely unaware of the way these things work… and to completely miss the point of training a groin kick in the first place.



drop bear said:


> kyokashin use chambered kicks.



Kyok*u*shin… you might want to start learning to spell the name, if you are going to use them as an example…



drop bear said:


> lol. You even martial art bro?



He does. He has done for many years… decades… your level of experience is a little more in doubt, honestly…

That said...



drop bear said:


> The bit i think is wrong is the bit about the chamber telegraphing the kick and robbing it of its power.



Here, I agree with you. The entire point of chambering a kick is to generate power. Yes, it can be slower, and sometimes easier to read… but I don't agree with K-man that it "robs you of power".



drop bear said:


> and the bit about a chambered kick being good for sport but not good for self defence.



It depends on the set-up. As an initial launch, or attack, yeah, it can be read and avoided… but as a follow up, it can be a devastatingly powerful "finisher"… of course, the target is important as well…

But yeah, as with everything… it depends. Chambered kicks can be good, bad, or anything in between for both sport and "real life" applications.



drop bear said:


> if a trained fighter cannot stop that kick and cannot absorb the damage of that kick. And he is facing these kicks all the time.
> 
> Where does this street attacker develop skills and tactics to do so?
> 
> otherwise i agree.



Yeah… you've jumped a bit there… but to begin with, what kicks exactly is your "trained fighter" facing? What's the set-up? What's the context? What are the tactical methods of the system they're using? And, as far as the "street attacker", what skills and tactics do you think they're developing?


----------



## Earl Weiss (Dec 25, 2014)

See

Top 10 Movie Crotch Shots WatchMojo.com


----------



## tkdwarrior (Dec 26, 2014)

Just like the throat punch here is one of the best fight stopper techniques provided that the opponent is not inebriated or on drugs(these types just don't feel a full on cojoness killer kick). Straight up to the crotch between the legs. You don't even have to hit those jewels full on. A low kick be it a front kick or a round or side or turning side/back kick to the region below the umblicus/belly bottom produces the same result. Provided that much power is applied to the technique.


----------



## tkdwarrior (Dec 26, 2014)

Target #1 as miyagi in karate kid used to say is the best target to hit


----------



## drop bear (Dec 26, 2014)

tkdwarrior said:


> Target #1 as miyagi in karate kid used to say is the best target to hit



by the way are you a chambered or non chambered kick guy


----------



## tkdwarrior (Dec 27, 2014)

drop bear said:


> by the way are you a chambered or non chambered kick guy


Depends on the situation but I start training my students in taekwondo by properly chambering their legs, depending on the kick, or not at all depending on the kick


----------



## Mad_Dog (Apr 26, 2015)

I remember this little shrimp who came in the bar one night with a woman too hot for him.  I had been drinking for the past 10 hours straight (the boss gives us free drinks on duty, plus I had been drinking for 6 hours before my shift) and was starting to feel surly.

I didn't like the way he was looking at me so I told him to get the eff out of the bar.  He asked for what, which really ticked me off because of his disrespectful insolence.  I threw a left hook at his smug face but missed because I was so drunk.  The little punk actually kicked me in the balls.  It doubled me over but not enough to put me down.

I got in close, because I was so drunk, put him in a headlock then started pummeling his smart-mouth (I actually got a piece of his tooth stuck in my knuckle).  I through him out and while I was busy hitting on his woman, the punk actually called the cops on me.  And I was taken to jail that night, can you believe it...ME!!!

I was so mad I beat up a couple of guys in the drunk tank and it delayed my release for eight hours.  But it had been done, that punk violated the Bouncer's Code and was forever banned from the bar.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Apr 26, 2015)

Mad_Dog said:


> I remember this little shrimp who came in the bar one night with a woman too hot for him.  I had been drinking for the past 10 hours straight (the boss gives us free drinks on duty, plus I had been drinking for 6 hours before my shift) and was starting to feel surly.
> 
> I didn't like the way he was looking at me so I told him to get the eff out of the bar.  He asked for what, which really ticked me off because of his disrespectful insolence.  I threw a left hook at his smug face but missed because I was so drunk.  The little punk actually kicked me in the balls.  It doubled me over but not enough to put me down.
> 
> ...


It sounds like you probably should consider a new line of work.


----------



## Mad_Dog (Apr 26, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> It sounds like you probably should consider a new line of work.


Why???  I'm very good at what I do.


----------



## elder999 (Apr 26, 2015)

Mad_Dog said:


> I remember this little shrimp who came in the bar one night with a woman too hot for him.  I had been drinking for the past 10 hours straight (the boss gives us free drinks on duty, plus I had been drinking for 6 hours before my shift) and was starting to feel surly.
> 
> I didn't like the way he was looking at me so I told him to get the eff out of the bar.  He asked for what, which really ticked me off because of his disrespectful insolence.  I threw a left hook at his smug face but missed because I was so drunk.  The little punk actually kicked me in the balls.  It doubled me over but not enough to put me down.
> 
> ...



*OMFG* 






Really? _Really-*really??!!*_

You are awesome.


----------



## Mad_Dog (Apr 26, 2015)

elder999 said:


> You are awesome.


Thank you.  But I already know.


----------



## Buka (Apr 26, 2015)

Mad_Dog said:


> Thank you.  But I already know.



You are a rootin, tootin, shootin, parachutin, double cap cripping, serious ash whoopin, alpha male with fourteen pounds of meat betwixt your legs, enough hair on your chest to weave an Indian blanket, your breath smells like molten lava hitting a peppermint factory and there ain't nuthin you can't do!

In other words - you are so fricken' adorable I could hug you. It was a slow weekend, thanks for the smiles, fella.


----------



## TSDTexan (Aug 11, 2015)

drop bear said:


>



Should still count for points and a decision. A groin strike is valid.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 11, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> Should still count for points and a decision. A groin strike is valid.



Kudo allows them. Personally I would do without as repeated nut shots can't be good for you. 

Inside leg does send the message across.


----------



## TSDTexan (Aug 11, 2015)

Here are some guys who train "getting kicked in the stones".

I wonder if they would let Bad Ruttan pressure test this?

Here's the video


----------



## TSDTexan (Aug 11, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Kudo allows them. Personally I would do without as repeated nut shots can't be good for you.
> 
> Inside leg does send the message across.



Repeated blows to the head can't be good for you either. But brain damage is OK.


----------



## Drose427 (Aug 11, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Kudo allows them. Personally I would do without as repeated nut shots can't be good for you.
> 
> Inside leg does send the message across.



Inside leg kick is my go to, hit that femoral and deaden that leg and you get immediate results

Although if you really want results quick, 

work both sides haha

Takes the will right out of them


----------



## TSDTexan (Aug 11, 2015)

drop bear said:


> This thread needs some Andy hug.




Lol... Hug is a meme around here.
Whoever mentions Andy Hug's Axe kick during an exchange automatically wins.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 11, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> Repeated blows to the head can't be good for you either. But brain damage is OK.



Depends which one you use more.


----------



## TSDTexan (Aug 11, 2015)

Touché


----------



## Chris Parker (Aug 12, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> Here are some guys who train "getting kicked in the stones".
> 
> I wonder if they would let Bad Ruttan pressure test this?
> 
> Here's the video



You… do know who Rod Sacharnowski is, yeah…? Cause…. well….


----------



## Zero (Aug 12, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> Here, I agree with you. The entire point of chambering a kick is to generate power. Yes, it can be slower, and sometimes easier to read… but I don't agree with K-man that it "robs you of power".



The whole chambering of kicks question can be quite an in-depth one, and as you say, so open to variables.  There's no one stop answer on this, which I think is what you are saying in response to Dropbear, in any event.

*Power/Result of Impact*:
The snap of the kick from the fulcrum/leverage point of the knee to full extension absolutely generates power and very much so via its whip-like action.  It is also an incredibly fast motion when you have trained it well.

But from my experience (and I actually use snap kicks/chambered kicks for head hunting much more than straight leg), a traditional muay thai-like straight leg round house seems to generate more power and more impact than the equivalent round house off the back leg executed as a knee chambered snap kick.  Having experienced both many times and from throwing them myself in most fights, that's my take on it.   If that was where K-man was coming from, I would say on the whole, the straight leg is a harder hitting weapon...  But clearly the whip of the leg from the chambered position generates a lot of power!

*Speed:*
It is a very, very close thing, but you could say the straight leg round house is a fraction quicker than the chambered, snap kick.  As the leg goes from the foot off the floor to the target in one swinging motion.   However, while the chambered equivalent has two motions, the chambering can be done as one fluid phase, so that the extension of the foreleg from the chambered high knee is almost as fast as the straight leg.

*Telegraphing:*
As for easier to read...hmmm and I note you say "sometimes", so I totally agree with that.  You can play with the variables with chambering if you are a decent kicker.  The chambered snap of a front foot kick can be very deceptive, particularly if you are chambering the knee up your centre line, rather than a traditional round house movement.  Throw a couple of punches to disguise the incoming kick.  I normally do a couple of jabs as camouflage and as you are pulling back your second jab, the knee is being chambered up your centre line right under cover of the jab.  You then extend your leg from the chambered knee and crack the kick on the side of the head.  There is almost a blind spot as the foot or shin connects to the side of the head if you throw the kick up the middle of your body and then come in with the snap to the outside of your opponent's face/jaw.

Also, timing can be very deceptive.  You can play with the two phases, just like working a slow ball into your over (sorry to all Yanks that don't play/understand cricket!!) can be effective.  You can chamber slow and then whip out the kick at a higher speed, difference tempo or cadence and catch your opponent off guard.  You can also play around with the overall motion more than the straight kick.  So that you initially chamber low to what looks like a rib kick, then take it high at the last moment and extend to head contact.

Summary: on the whole, if you are a good kicker, I would say the chamber/snap kick is less able to read and that the straight leg kick is actually a more telegraphed movement.

*Old age pensioner high kickers:*
As an aside, I also feel that maybe (maybe) the repetitive use of the knee _chambered correctly _(and provided you are pivoting on your foot and engaging/opening your hips correctly), especially on high kicks, is more sustainable and less likely to subject your body to wear and tear over years and years of throwing these, rather than straight leg kicks.  But that's just my hunch...


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## Tez3 (Aug 14, 2015)

Kingeri = groin kick, why practice something else when a groin kick is available. I don't understand why the need to complicate things. use a bloody groin kick when wanting to kick the groin and come to that why are we being coy? if  you want to kick them in the nuts do so.


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## drop bear (Aug 14, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Kingeri = groin kick, why practice something else when a groin kick is available. I don't understand why the need to complicate things. use a bloody groin kick when wanting to kick the groin and come to that why are we being coy? if  you want to kick them in the nuts do so.



Because you can't train it live. Which means you might land the groin kick but eat a right cross in the process. Where you train the inner leg they can also train knocking your head off if you get the timing wrong.


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## Chris Parker (Aug 14, 2015)

Sigh… yes, you can "train it live"…. and not eating a punch when kicking to the inner thigh (which is closer than the groin) doesn't mean a damn thing… you're already further out of range with the thigh kick…


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## Tez3 (Aug 14, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Because you can't train it live. Which means you might land the groin kick but eat a right cross in the process. Where you train the inner leg they can also train knocking your head off if you get the timing wrong.




You missed the point of my post, it wasn't about kicking to the groin as such it was about being coy and calling testicles the 'groin', call a spade a spade for goodness sake! In the OP title it should read if you want to kick to the nuts/testicles train........'


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## drop bear (Aug 14, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> Sigh… yes, you can "train it live"…. and not eating a punch when kicking to the inner thigh (which is closer than the groin) doesn't mean a damn thing… you're already further out of range with the thigh kick…



Most inner leg kicks will catch the groin if you aim them wrong.

So no you are not so far out of range as to invalidate the kick. You may hit with the foot rather than the shin. But that is about it.

And even then it is closer to training a groin kick live than them not defending the kick at all.


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## Chris Parker (Aug 14, 2015)

Your first clip is a kick that missed, and would never be chosen deliberately as a "groin kick"… but we've covered all of that before. The second is… look, I don't even know why you put it up. It's a poor example of, well, pretty much everything. It's not a drill… it's not a targeting exercise… it's not a technical demonstration… it's not really anything other than a blonde girl doing something ineffective on many levels. If it's there for you to demonstrate "not training live", well… it's not meant to be. Which, frankly, invalidates that as a criticism.


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## drop bear (Aug 14, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> Your first clip is a kick that missed, and would never be chosen deliberately as a "groin kick"… but we've covered all of that before. The second is… look, I don't even know why you put it up. It's a poor example of, well, pretty much everything. It's not a drill… it's not a targeting exercise… it's not a technical demonstration… it's not really anything other than a blonde girl doing something ineffective on many levels. If it's there for you to demonstrate "not training live", well… it's not meant to be. Which, frankly, invalidates that as a criticism.



Groin kicks are poor examples of training kicks. You kick a pad or a static target. Not one fighting back. So they are all varying degrees of blobd girl.

The other kick which is an accident is more effective and better executed.


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## Chris Parker (Aug 14, 2015)

Yeah… you need to get out more… there are plenty of ways to "train live"… 

As far as the other kick being "more effective and better executed"… no. It's really not. It's poorly thrown, misses it's target, takes too long to take effect, and, well, would be so far below reliable as being effective outside of a competitive environment. So, no.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 14, 2015)

I have utilized Predator body armour to allow full on, groin kicks with movement.  That is just one way to practice them live.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 14, 2015)

I do agree that the inside leg kick is a good way to train for the groin kick.


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## drop bear (Aug 14, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> Yeah… you need to get out more… there are plenty of ways to "train live"…
> 
> As far as the other kick being "more effective and better executed"… no. It's really not. It's poorly thrown, misses it's target, takes too long to take effect, and, well, would be so far below reliable as being effective outside of a competitive environment. So, no.



What would be those plenty of ways to train live?

How should that kick be done?


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## drop bear (Aug 14, 2015)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I have utilized Predator body armour to allow full on, groin kicks with movement.  That is just one way to practice them live.



My issue there is you have so much padding that you loose the reaction a bit. So the partner either has to guess at a response or is unreasonably resistant.

I have trained with a fist suit. And I don't know,most stuff is just more tactile with some sort of variation of mma gear.


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## RTKDCMB (Aug 14, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Kingeri = groin kick,


= cod's wallop


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## RTKDCMB (Aug 14, 2015)

drop bear said:


> What would be those plenty of ways to train live?


One way is with non-contact sparring, even though you are not giving someone chestnuts you still have to defend against it.


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## RTKDCMB (Aug 14, 2015)

drop bear said:


>



Poor accuracy leading to a kick that had more of an effect than hitting the target he was aiming for.



drop bear said:


>



A good way to break your toes unless your opponent is standing with his legs wide open she would be better off hitting with the ball of the foot.


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## drop bear (Aug 14, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> Poor accuracy leading to a kick that had more of an effect than hitting the target he was aiming for.
> 
> 
> 
> A good way to break your toes unless your opponent is standing with his legs wide open she would be better off hitting with the ball of the foot.



No wait according to Chris that kick had no useful effect.

I mean obviously you would aim the kick at the groin if you wanted to kick them in the groin. But the entry and the mechanics would either be from what you practiced doing the inside leg kick. Or what you practiced doing a groin specific kick.


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## RTKDCMB (Aug 14, 2015)

drop bear said:


> No wait according to Chris that kick had no useful effect.



Pretty sure he was only referring to the blonde girl's kick.



drop bear said:


> I mean obviously you would aim the kick at the groin if you wanted to kick them in the groin. But the entry and the mechanics would either be from what you practiced doing the inside leg kick. Or what you practiced doing a groin specific kick.



I always do a target specific kick, If I want to kick the groin I aim a kick to the groin, if I want to kick to the inside leg I aim a kick to the inside leg. There are many ways to kick the groin and many ways to kick to the inside leg and some of those ways will be similar.


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## Tez3 (Aug 14, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> = cod's wallop




Nice one!


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 14, 2015)

drop bear said:


> My issue there is you have so much padding that you loose the reaction a bit. So the partner either has to guess at a response or is unreasonably resistant.
> 
> I have trained with a fist suit. And I don't know,most stuff is just more tactile with some sort of variation of mma gear.



Pros and cons to everything.  However, with the predator suit they can work full power, full on kicks without holding back one bit.  This helps with confidence in what they are doing and because the suit allows full mobility you move and act just like a real attacker.  However, like any kind of training there are always pros and cons!


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## Chris Parker (Aug 24, 2015)

drop bear said:


> What would be those plenty of ways to train live?



Well, let's see… you have non-contact sparring… semi-contact… structured drills done at full speed (not power)… movement drills with impact pads… random attacks (with one side designated as "attacker")… all of these allow for "groin kicks" to be exercised in live and semi-live manners. But here's the thing… sparring doesn't allow for specific techniques to be trained… you need to use drills for that. So your entire line of thinking that sparring is the only "live" training is flawed from the outset.



drop bear said:


> How should that kick be done?



Well, on target would be a good start… 



drop bear said:


> No wait according to Chris that kick had no useful effect.



Not exactly what I said.


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## drop bear (Aug 24, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> Well, let's see… you have non-contact sparring… semi-contact… structured drills done at full speed (not power)… movement drills with impact pads… random attacks (with one side designated as "attacker")… all of these allow for "groin kicks" to be exercised in live and semi-live manners. But here's the thing… sparring doesn't allow for specific techniques to be trained… you need to use drills for that. So your entire line of thinking that sparring is the only "live" training is flawed from the outset.



Lol.

That is just precious.


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## Chris Parker (Aug 28, 2015)

Dude… what? I hardly know how to respond to that… mainly as I hardly know what you're referring to. Are you suggesting that the alternate training methods for your "groin kick" aren't methods that can be used? Or are you arguing against my comment that sparring isn't really the way to develop skill in a specific (single) technique? Cause, really, in either case… present your argument. Without it, you just look… well… lacking.


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## drop bear (Aug 28, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> Dude… what? I hardly know how to respond to that… mainly as I hardly know what you're referring to. Are you suggesting that the alternate training methods for your "groin kick" aren't methods that can be used? Or are you arguing against my comment that sparring isn't really the way to develop skill in a specific (single) technique? Cause, really, in either case… present your argument. Without it, you just look… well… lacking.



Most of your methods there are a pretty nieve way to approach resisted training. But it is nice that you are trying.


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## Chris Parker (Aug 28, 2015)

Oh, mate… look, to be clear here, you have no idea what you're talking about. Oh, and the word is "naive"… also spelt "irony", it seems…


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## Koshiki (Sep 19, 2015)

Mightn't it be fair to say that, as with nearly everything in MA training, every safe method will have serious drawbacks as regards reality, making it a good idea to have a variety of approximations, the limitations of each which will hopefully be cancelled by the strengths of the other?

Personally, I'm very much NOT a fan of the re-targetting of techniques in practice. However, I know guys that do it, many of them very competent, and there are certain advantages to the practice, eg. speed, power, live-ness of training.

And to be fair, depending on how you're performing the kicks, I don't think it's fair to say that, for example, an upward/rising shin kick to the upper inner thigh is significantly different from an upward/rising shin kick to the groin, any more than a stomp/cross kick to the upper knee is significantly different to a stomp/cross kick to the shin, or to the hip. It's similar mechanics, with a different target and angle.

But, also to be fair, depending on your proffered kick for inner thigh kicks and for groin kicks, they _can_ be very different, in which case training one as a place holder for the other is counter-productive at the very best.

I'd rather not antagonize any of the parties in this thread, but it does seem like a rather nebulous topic that should have a lot of agreement and common ground, rather than a divisive, dichotomous issue worthy of such polemics...


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## Star Dragon (Sep 19, 2015)

The thing is, under the stress of a real situation, you will tend to do whatever your training has ingrained into your subconscious mind and muscle memory. So altering targets just for training purposes is not good practice, imo.


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## Koshiki (Sep 19, 2015)

Star Dragon said:


> The thing is, under the stress of a real situation, you will tend to do whatever your training has ingrained into your subconscious mind and muscle memory. So altering targets just for training purposes is not good practice, imo.



Agreed. I am, like I said, not a fan of it, but I don't know that it's the terrible, horrible, moronic, devastating practice method that some people make it out to be.

I mean, if you practice with correct targeting, the most common thing to do is pull the strike, also not a good thing to "ingrain into your subconscious" (I might quibble and say unconscious).

Slow training with follow through might be a good approach, but that has the very serious downside of potentially enabling complex techniques, which may seem effective and easy to do, but which at full speed just don't happen.

My point being, that no, I don't train alternative targets, yes I think they train poor habits, but no, I don't think that they have no acceptable place in anyone's training.

Again, I don't like them, but I don't understand the vitriol towards the entire concept.


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## drop bear (Sep 19, 2015)

Star Dragon said:


> The thing is, under the stress of a real situation, you will tend to do whatever your training has ingrained into your subconscious mind and muscle memory. So altering targets just for training purposes is not good practice, imo.



So worst case. Under stress you fire an inside leg kick?


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## Star Dragon (Sep 19, 2015)

Zack Cart said:


> Agreed. I am, like I said, not a fan of it, but I don't know that it's the terrible, horrible, moronic, devastating practice method that some people make it out to be.
> 
> I mean, if you practice with correct targeting, the most common thing to do is pull the strike, also not a good thing to "ingrain into your subconscious" (I might quibble and say unconscious).
> 
> ...



Agreed, practice requires compromises one way or another. Pulling techniques is one of them, it is still better than doing fully extended techniques to a spot in front of the target ("tsun dome") which leads to a wrong sense of distance. It is out of fashion even in traditional Karate, to my knowledge.

I like my Uke to wear protective gear, so that I don't need to restrain myself all that much, although I will be using common sense nevertheless.

For training proper penetration, I do plenty of techniques on my BOB (he isn't happy if he doesn't get his daily beating) and other equipment.


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## Koshiki (Sep 19, 2015)

drop bear said:


> So worst case. Under stress you fire an inside leg kick?



Certainly better than placing a perfectly aimed groin kick with perfect technique and timing, and accidentally pulling it at the last second!

I think many people just don't really think about how short many scuffles are, like 10 seconds short. Like 5 seconds.

Sure, in a two minute slugfest, you have time to think about correcting the non-realistic aspects of training, like targeting, pulling strikes, etc, but if you have a ten second, fight, it might take you a good 5 seconds (or the whole fight) just to really comprehend that you're fighting. For that period of initial disorientation, as anyone who's ever been smacked knows, you're just kinda running on autopilot, wating for your brain to catch up.

That really, is the biggest difference between sparring and not getting beaten up. In sparring, you don't have that surprise, fear, confusion, and general chaos inhibiting your brain. You KNOW what's going on, what the worst case scenario is; you're as prepared as you can be.


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## Star Dragon (Sep 19, 2015)

drop bear said:


> So worst case. Under stress you fire an inside leg kick?



Yes. This can be a viable target too, depending on the weapon, the exact target and what one is trying to accomplish, but it may not give one the intended result, which could be crucial. Just think of a woman defending herself against a rapist.

By the same token, there are folks who in training substitute a chop to the chest for one to the throat etc, but for the given reasons, I would rather pull a technique and/or use protectors. Always, safety is first.


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## Koshiki (Sep 19, 2015)

Star Dragon said:


> ...it is still better than doing fully extended techniques to a spot in front of the target ("tsun dome") which leads to a wrong sense of distance.



So. Much. Hate. For that training method. There's actually a thread on here about it, in the form of sparring, giving a nice long explanation, much better than any I've ever heard previously. And I still really, really hate the idea that you can just "adjust distancing when you need to."

No, you can't!

I'm a fan of mixing a bunch of sparring games/compromises, but my favorite is controlled sparring with full extension. Also the hardest to learn to do well, however.

The two forms I actively avoid are target replacement and full extension but no penetration, as I think they train the worst habits.

For example, I've either heard or read Dan Djerdjevick explaining how punching the chest is a safe way to train for face strikes. Safe yes, but effective is another matter, open for discussion. If you fall back on that training, have _one_ opportunity for a good strong hit, and you choke and slug the guy in the chest, well...

That said, in the case of the inside leg kick, as Drop Bear says, if you _don't_ adjust your training in the heat of the moment, you've still thrown a viable technique, which is at least some consolation, although there are about 8 general types of leg kicks I'd rather get off, if I could only get one leg kick in.


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## drop bear (Sep 20, 2015)

Star Dragon said:


> Yes. This can be a viable target too, depending on the weapon, the exact target and what one is trying to accomplish, but it may not give one the intended result, which could be crucial. Just think of a woman defending herself against a rapist.
> 
> By the same token, there are folks who in training substitute a chop to the chest for one to the throat etc, but for the given reasons, I would rather pull a technique and/or use protectors. Always, safety is first.



Just think if a woman kicks the guys groin and it dosent work. Throwing that kick from a background of live sparring makes you aware that you need to set up your entries and exits. So when a technique dosent give the intended results you have already supported it with more techniques.

People get distracted by the technique. Think about maywhether. Undefeated boxer. What punch does he use that makes him so good?


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## drop bear (Sep 20, 2015)

Zack Cart said:


> Certainly better than placing a perfectly aimed groin kick with perfect technique and timing, and accidentally pulling it at the last second!
> 
> I think many people just don't really think about how short many scuffles are, like 10 seconds short. Like 5 seconds.
> 
> ...



You could do 10,15 or 30 second sparring rounds which would at least get you banging from the pocket.


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## Koshiki (Sep 23, 2015)

drop bear said:


> You could do 10,15 or 30 second sparring rounds which would at least get you banging from the pocket.



Very true. Even in sparring, those first few seconds are the hardest, even with someone you've played with for years. I was thinking more about the real nervousness and _real_ uncertainty you get when you realize someone actually wants to hurt you, rather than spar with you. _That_ period of disorientation, that most key part of any real self-defense encounter, is what you really can't synthesize (ethically).

For most of us, that's something we'll only ever experience once or twice in life, if we're unlucky.

For the record, I don't really consider chest-thumping, ego-driven "bar-fight" type encounters to be truly self-defense, in many respects. In many ways, they're more like angry sparring matches; you generally know they're coming, you both sort of agree, and there's usually at least some semblance of civility and an unspoken rule-set, as opposed to real, terrifying assault, which most people never encounter, you know, the whole actually trying to kill you, rather than just wanting your wallet or showing off for your buddies...

That second, more serious case, is where you _need_ to fall back on reactions instilled through years of training. It's not you-lose-you-get-bruised, it's embarrassing; it's much scarier, which is why the more adjustment it requires, the less I'm a fan of it.

-----------

Again, not dismissing the whole inside-leg-for-groin thing, it's just wouldn't be my go to if I was worried about violent assault, and groin kicks were an integral part of my self-defense repertoire. 

For the record, I actually spend very little time worrying about groin kicks, they drop some guys, they take a while on others, and some guys can tough it out for a bit. Nobody can run fast with a knee that's not functioning, punch hard with a dead elbow, or do much of anything with a brain that decides it's nap time.

Definitely a fan over structural damage and/or functional disruption over pain compliance. And yes, I would consider groin kicks to be more about pain compliance than anything else...


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