# Would you recommend Budo Taijutsu?



## Hudson69 (May 3, 2011)

Based off of the premise that the instructor is competent (seems like it anyway) and the student, my friend, will be a good one would you recommend someone, him, to study Budo Taijutsu?  

This is given that the student in question only has about six months before he deploys to a hot spot and fully expects to have to use hand to hand techniques when he gets there: detainment facility, no armor, potentially multiple opponents and limited to a baton/night stick of some sort. The student is already qual'd in Army Combatives as well and the instructor is unwilling to modify the curriculum to deal with the expected occurrences (he has no prior MA experience outside of "Army" training).

This is a real situation coming up.


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## yorkshirelad (May 3, 2011)

Hudson69 said:


> Based off of the premise that the instructor is competent (seems like it anyway) and the student, my friend, will be a good one would you recommend someone, him, to study Budo Taijutsu?
> 
> This is given that the student in question only has about six months before he deploys to a hot spot and fully expects to have to use hand to hand techniques when he gets there: detainment facility, no armor, potentially multiple opponents and limited to a baton/night stick of some sort. The student is already qual'd in Army Combatives as well and the instructor is unwilling to modify the curriculum to deal with the expected occurrences (he has no prior MA experience outside of "Army" training).
> 
> This is a real situation coming up.


 
No!


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## Bruno@MT (May 3, 2011)

No. Not at all. Waste of time.
If someone has 6 months to learn something and is expecting actual hand to hand combat, ninpo or budo taijutsu is really not a good choice.

Depending on what level of violence he is allowed or expected to use, I'd tell him to take up boxing and / or BJJ(or something very like it), and train several times per week. Your friend does not have the luxury of learning things slowly and spending a lot of time working on basics, rolling and breakfalls. He'll need something he can use ASAP.


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## pgsmith (May 3, 2011)

I agree. I would recommend Krav Maga if he can find it.


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## Dean Whittle (May 3, 2011)

If he's working in a detainment facility (ie prison) then he's probably expected to control and restrain (C&R), and have the ability to escalate his response based on circumstances, eg multiple assailants, weapons etc. 

Given those parameters I don't think BBT would be suitable, neither would boxing or BJJ, although BJJ is good in controling an opponent provided they have no friends, and there's no weapons involved and you have the time to learn it.

I'm not aware if Krav Maga has a C&R curriculum, but it's certainly closer to the mark than any of the above.

My recommendation would be ISR Matrix (www.isrmatrix.org), it fits the bill perfectly for what your friend is looking for, not only in terms of content (C&R in a prison etc) but also in it's deliverly method of short term skill development.

With respect


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## Stealthy (May 3, 2011)

Dean Whittle said:


> Given those parameters I don't think BBT would be suitable, neither would boxing or BJJ, although BJJ is good in controling an opponent provided they have no friends, and there's no weapons involved and you have the time to learn it.
> 
> I'm not aware if Krav Maga has a C&R curriculum, but it's certainly closer to the mark than any of the above.


 
My thoughts exactly.

If feeling generous an instructor may do up a home training program for your friend. To be effective over such a short time and with the threat of weapons I assume it should be confined to the most practical close quarters weapon and be very limited in content.

Assuming some form of Batton it should cover basic attacks, stances, flanking, weight distribution relative to stance and flanks but little else.

With a few months training two hours a day with one good weapon on the basics while drilling strikes onto a target(ie: a car tyre for the batton) perhaps even getting in a little light sparring with head gear and safety weapons, survival chance should increase dramatically.


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## Carol (May 3, 2011)

I think 6 months in the FMAs would do him a lot of good.


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## tenzen (May 4, 2011)

I would like to say that krav maga is ******** in america. Taijutsu takes way too long and if u run the risk of multiple opponents bjj can be ruled out immediately. I do have to agree with carol though. Fma would be a good route since he will be carrying a baton and the techs transfer well to empty hand. If it was me in that situation I would focus one stomping knee kicks and chopping strikes to the neck and collar bones kicks to the groin eye gouging things like that. And drill them until I hated them and then drill them some more. These are gross motor movements that can be used whether tired or injured or armored if it were the case. He will find these in the fma.


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## shinbushi (May 4, 2011)

I would also say that the Dog Brothers have a great program called die less often


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## Brian R. VanCise (May 4, 2011)

While I would not rule out training in Budo Taijutsu with the right instructor. (ie. some former military people that I know that would understand his needs and have trained people going into Iraq and Afghanistan in a short period)  FMA's would probably be the best choice particularly Dekiti Tirsia Siradas or Pekiti Tirsia, Sayoc, etc.  Not to say that Krav Maga would not work as well as many others.


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## oaktree (May 4, 2011)

I think something with knives like FMA is great I would think that if he was in a close encounter situation he would be using a knife or the other guy would be using a knife if neither had guns for some reason.

I think something that is straight to point 
 like Boxing and Judo and wrestling. Something along the lines of fake a punch double leg take down smash face with rock. 

http://www.scribd.com/doc/24011504/PDF-Combat-Judo

http://www.tsroadmap.com/early/tough.pdf

http://www.resist.com/updates/2010/AUG_10/USMC-KillOrGetKilled-1.pdf

http://judoinfo.com/pdf/Combat.pdf


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## Jphaas (May 4, 2011)

Unquestionably, yes, I would recommend it. If he trains hard under a good teacher, he can learn many viable principles for tactical movement in armed/unarmed combat in a 6 month time frame. But notice I said principles, not techniques. His level of technique won't be so great after only 6 months of training, but the movement template that gets instilled in his body through correct, principle-based training will serve him very well. Not to mention, he can also continue training on his own or with likeminded people once he gets stationed to further refine what he's learned.


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## pgsmith (May 4, 2011)

I disagree with all Krav Maga being *** in America, but I do agree that, if he is armed with a baton, FMA would be a very good choice. I was thinking empty handed rather than armed when I suggested Krav.


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## Bruno@MT (May 4, 2011)

Jphaas said:


> Unquestionably, yes, I would recommend it. If he trains hard under a good teacher, he can learn many viable principles for tactical movement in armed/unarmed combat in a 6 month time frame. But notice I said principles, not techniques. His level of technique won't be so great after only 6 months of training, but the movement template that gets instilled in his body through correct, principle-based training will serve him very well. Not to mention, he can also continue training on his own or with likeminded people once he gets stationed to further refine what he's learned.



Yes, but after 6 months he still would not have good practical skills that he could use in a real confrontation.


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## Jphaas (May 4, 2011)

Bruno@MT said:


> Yes, but after 6 months he still would not have good practical skills that he could use in a real confrontation.


 
I disagree, Bruno. He already had some sort of Army combatives training, right? Plus, he will probably be getting OJT as well once he's stationed. When you add in body skills that teach tactical movement and principles of weapon use to that base, I'd say he's got a fairly good shot at being effective. But hey, that's just my opinion after training a guy who happens to be a prison guard in a military installation and listening to his feedback.


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## tenzen (May 4, 2011)

Ok army combatives are nothing more than modified mma and are made to instill confidence not fighting ability. This is done because most of these newbees have never even been hit in the face. So you can rule that out. Also in the environment he will be in you don't want to go to the ground. In regards to krav maga here in the states it is mostly taught at tkd schools by guys who really can't fight, and have never had to use it. Most of it. There are rare instances when you get a good instructor from israel or one from anywhere that has had to use it. But its rare. The level of instruction here and the instructors themselves are not quality. The system itsself is great especially for the situation but I would be willing to bet he's not around a decent krav instructor. The fma are proven and much easier to find quality instruction in. And probably more cost effective too. Krav can get expensive so can budo taijutsu.


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## MJS (May 4, 2011)

tenzen said:


> In regards to krav maga here in the states it is mostly taught at tkd schools by guys who really can't fight, and have never had to use it. Most of it. There are rare instances when you get a good instructor from israel or one from anywhere that has had to use it. But its rare. The level of instruction here and the instructors themselves are not quality. The system itsself is great especially for the situation but I would be willing to bet he's not around a decent krav instructor. The fma are proven and much easier to find quality instruction in. And probably more cost effective too. Krav can get expensive so can budo taijutsu.


 
Can't disagree with you on the Krav Maga.  Most of what you see at theTKD schools is the KMWW Darren Levine stuff.  However, and I should consider myself lucky because within a few hours distance from me, I have the KMF led by Haim Zut and the IKMA led by Haim Gidon.  NY and NJ aren't that far from me, so if I wanted legit KM, thats where I'd go.  Sadly, there is alot of subpar stuff out there, so if you want the real stuff, you may have to travel.  

The FMAs....yup, been training in them for many years now.  Certainly some effective stuff.


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## Hudson69 (May 5, 2011)

Right now he is working on PPCT with me; without the handcuffing and searching and a strong emphasis on the striking/blocking/movement/falls and time with the baton.  We are also sparring and I have a few friends helping out so that he gets to know what it is like to fight different people and more than one person.

He says he found a Krav school in town (Colorado Springs) with LEO Krav instructors and they will let him take lessons.  He couldn't find an FMA school here, in the Pikes Peak region.

Thanks for the input guys and gals.


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## jks9199 (May 5, 2011)

If they're able to teach the LE curriculum of Krav Maga, it could be good.  I've been impressed by KMWW's defensive tactics program.

As taught in most dojo I've heard of -- I wouldn't say ANY real martial art is a good choice.  The reality is he needs to simply grind in a handful of adaptable principles, ideally that transfer smoothly from empty hand to stick, and practice them in a variety of scenarios.  And there just aren't that many schools that will do that...


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## Carol (May 6, 2011)

Hudson69 said:


> Right now he is working on PPCT with me; without the handcuffing and searching and a strong emphasis on the striking/blocking/movement/falls and time with the baton.  We are also sparring and I have a few friends helping out so that he gets to know what it is like to fight different people and more than one person.
> 
> He says he found a Krav school in town (Colorado Springs) with LEO Krav instructors and they will let him take lessons.  He couldn't find an FMA school here, in the Pikes Peak region.
> 
> Thanks for the input guys and gals.



If he is interested, there is a good FMA instructor right in Colorado Springs

Mr. Jay Haynes:
http://www.familykaratecenter.com/arnis.htm


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## Kage-Ronin (May 6, 2011)

tenzen said:


> *Ok army combatives are nothing more than modified mma and are made to instill confidence not fighting ability.* This is done because most of these newbees have never even been hit in the face. So you can rule that out. Also in the environment he will be in you don't want to go to the ground. In regards to krav maga here in the states it is mostly taught at tkd schools by guys who really can't fight, and have never had to use it. Most of it. There are rare instances when you get a good instructor from israel or one from anywhere that has had to use it. But its rare. The level of instruction here and the instructors themselves are not quality. The system itsself is great especially for the situation but I would be willing to bet he's not around a decent krav instructor. The fma are proven and much easier to find quality instruction in. And probably more cost effective too. Krav can get expensive so can budo taijutsu.


 

Not to de-rail the thread, but Matt Larsen, Tim Kennedy, and/or any of the TRADOC cadre involved with MACP would _HIGHLY_ disagree with this statement. They specifically study AAR's from the field dealing with any and all uses of H2H fighting and how/whether MACP was or wasn't used and apply it to the program accordingly.

As to the original question, I would recommend FMA and possibly Judo to build on the combatives training he already has. 

Good Luck to your friend. And from one veteran to another than for the continued service.( I retired last year and kinda miss it)


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## tenzen (May 7, 2011)

Kage ronin I gotta disagree with you. Matt larsen himself has said that is what it was for. The modified mma that they teach is not for the battlefield. It will not save you when your life is on the line. It is a sport that is why they have a team for each branch of military service and are working to build competitions for it. Now the knife and bayonet portiion ok ill give you that the unarmed portion not for the battlefield. Its a confidence builder. You can punch and kick and grapple all u want in the cage or ring or tire pit or sand pit doesn't matter. If your out of ammo and haji captures you, you better gouge his eyes and rip his throat out. Also a lot of the movements from the striking portion are not applicable while wearing all your gear. Some of the grappling is but that will slow you down and possibly cost you your life.

Ever heard them say that if you have to use it your already dead. Or the saying that they teach you just enough to get your *** whipped. Its all confidence because the new breed of soldiers are not fighters, most have never even been in a fight.


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## Kage-Ronin (May 7, 2011)

tenzen said:


> Kage ronin I gotta disagree with you. Matt larsen himself has said that is what it was for. The modified mma that they teach is not for the battlefield. It will not save you when your life is on the line. It is a sport that is why they have a team for each branch of military service and are working to build competitions for it. Now the knife and bayonet portiion ok ill give you that the unarmed portion not for the battlefield. Its a confidence builder. You can punch and kick and grapple all u want in the cage or ring or tire pit or sand pit doesn't matter. If your out of ammo and haji captures you, you better gouge his eyes and rip his throat out. Also a lot of the movements from the striking portion are not applicable while wearing all your gear. Some of the grappling is but that will slow you down and possibly cost you your life.
> 
> Ever heard them say that if you have to use it your already dead. Or the saying that they teach you just enough to get your *** whipped. Its all confidence because the new breed of soldiers are not fighters, most have never even been in a fight.


 
Gottta disagree with you too partner. 

From the MACP website:



> The goal of Modern Combatives is to change the culture so that real combative ability is expected of every Soldier by teaching realistic training methods and growing self sustaining indigenous Combatives programs within units and organizations.


 
and:




> It is not enough to simply tell soldiers to be aggressive; they must have a faith in their abilities built through hard and arduous training and know that they are going to win; so that when that weapon does malfunction three feet from the bad guy, they will instinctively attack.


 
and:



> A systematic approach to training emerged, which detailed the techniques that would be taught, and in what order. Rangers would start with the basics of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu ground fighting, and progress into the throws and takedowns of Judo and Wrestling, and the strikes of Boxing and Muay Thai. All of this could combine with marksmanship and contact weapons training from Kali and the western martial arts into a totally integrated system of Close Quarters Combat,  yielding Rangers* who could transition smoothly between ranges of combat, with or without weapons, individually or as a group*.



Finally:




> With constant feedback from the battlefield, the system continues to grow to meet the needs of today's Soldiers.


 
I absolutely agree that it teaches confidence. But where we differ in opinion is that it has no use on the batllefield.

Case in point (applicable portion highlighted in red)




> *Training at hand
> Fighting in Iraq, one soldier decides he isn?t going to die lying down*
> 
> *By Staff Sgt. Paul McCully*
> ...





So I suppose that the modified MMA he learned did help him, wouldn't you?


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## tenzen (May 7, 2011)

The striking is not effective in full combat gear. I was a ranger stationed at ft benning for 4yrs. And went through their courses for combatives. I have been a martial artist literally my whole life and most of what is taught is not effective in your gear. The grappling you are taught is effective to an extent due to their origins being in armor. Their striking however was not developed to be used while wearing armor and the mechanics that they use when teaching them are all wrong. They could have went a better way with that part. Some of what they teach is effective on the battlefield but most is not. When your life is on the line u don't want to box the guys your going to want to structurally destroy them and this is not taught in their program. It. Was wrong of me to say its completely ineffective because some is applicable but it is all better done without your gear. Its just mma and mma has rules which will hinder true save your *** ability. But mma is the trend now so that's what you can expect, either way its sporting modified and is not as effective as it has the potential to be.
Back to the original topic though find an fma to train in and you will be better off.


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## Kage-Ronin (May 8, 2011)

I took some time before replying so as to decide how I wanted to proceed.



> I was a ranger stationed at ft benning for 4yrs. And went through their courses for combatives


 
Having not seen any evidence to back up your claim, I will take your word at face value that you were in fact a Ranger. In today's age of internet wannabe's that's a big leap of faith. No insult intended, there's just a long list of fakers that have claimed SF/ Ranger/SEAL/ Recon background and once the onion was peeled, their claims didn't pan out. Dux comes to mind.



> The striking is not effective in full combat gear.
> 
> Their striking however was not developed to be used while wearing armor and the mechanics that they use when teaching them are all wrong. They could have went a better way with that part.


 
What better way should they have gone? There is only a limited amount of time to teach the material. What else could they teach to get the most of their time, and that can be easily recalled other than boxing/MT?



> I have been a martial artist literally my whole life and most of what is taught is not effective in your gear.


 
So then what exactly qualifies you to judge the effectiveness or non-effectiveness of the program? I have been doing martial arts myself since 1995, I wouldn't justify that being the grounds to judge the system being taught. I do know that what they are doing now is far and gone way better than the pugil stick and few judo throws we did when I went through basic at Ft Bliss in 1988.



> When your life is on the line u don't want to box the guys your going to want to structurally destroy them and this is not taught in their program.


 
Eloborate on this please. If my fists are rapidly hitting you in the face and body and you have no time to recover or get your balance until I get my weapon into play or my buddy shows up, are you not structurally destroyed?



> Its just mma and mma has rules which will hinder true save your *** ability. But mma is the trend now so that's what you can expect, either way its sporting modified and is not as effective as it has the potential to be.


 
Please see below:

Its just mma and mma has rules which will hinder true save your *** ability. But mma is the trend now so that's what you can expect, either way its sporting modified and is not as effective as it has the potential to be.

Please see below:




> *He tried to dive for the AK, but I grabbed him and went to the clinch with him to control him. A clinch is when you control a person?s upper body by placing both your hands around his neck. Our bodies were close together; I had his hair in my right hand, pushing his head down, and my left hand was controlling his left shoulder.
> I immediately started throwing right uppercuts and knees to [mess] him up.
> I did that because I thought that there were more of my own guys behind me, but it turns out that Owens and I were the only ones to make it outside before the initial explosion. The No. 3 and No. 4 men got blown back into the building.
> After I threw the blows, I held on to him with the shirt and hair and extended my arms to allow the guys who I thought were behind me to have a clear shot. But that never happened. It seemed like I was alone, and nobody was there to help me.
> ...




So what "mma rules" were used here? It seems to me that given the circumstances what he did was pretty freaking effective.

But all this aside, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

To the OP, if your friend does judo, make sure he tells the instructor what his goals and plans are so he can adjust the training accordingly.


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## tenzen (May 8, 2011)

Anything said over the net has to be taken at face value nowadays. Dux that's classic. Thanx for the laugh I almost forgot about that guy. 
Your right their time is very limited which goes to show you that they aren't really taught ****. The focus should be on gross motor movements that you don't have to think about at a spllit second things you would just do. I covered this in a post on the first page of this thread. The movements should be able to be performed to the fullest whether in armor or not or injured or not or tired etc.
What qualifies me to judge? I started training at 3years old both of my parents were martial arts instructors as well as my grandfather on my mothers side. I have studied a multitude of martial arts gaining instructor certs in a few. I have worked as a bouncer and had to actually use what I know not just theory but practical application. I know what works and what doesn't. I also have a hobby in the field of bio mechanics. I like to know how and why we work the way we do so I know how to stop an opponent from working.
Boxing is a sport, it would be better to teach the soldiers to cause structural damage to the enemy than to try to box with them. For instance stomp out the knee hammer fist the collar bone and snap a few arms if need be. Maybe gouge the eyes rip the ears crush the larnyx. Real down and dirty battlefield effective stuff. Not how to fight a few rounds. There's a difference between real combat and combat sports. Just hitting someone in the face and body until u can get some back up doesn't necessarily mean they have been structurally destroyed. What I mean is they can no longer advance towards you. If the enemy is hyped up on some sort of drug they will keep comming no matter how much you punch them in the face you need to take away their ability to move. Also some have a very high pain threshold and might be a better boxer than you especially since you only get a block of instruction 3 weeks in length.
And I'm sorry sir but that story you keep posting sounds like a load of ****, I'm sure I'm not the only one that feels that way. Not saying it didn't happen but it sounds a little far fetched.
Now let's break this down a bit:
Brazillian jiu jitsu- combat sport
Judo- combat sport
Wrestling- combat sport
Boxing- combat sport
Muay thai- combat sport
Am I making my point at all yet? Its mma and it is hindered by rules. I mean they don't even teach small joint manipulation or standing joint locks at all for that matter.
I will say that them teaching what they are is a good thing but it has to be taken for what it is. Not blown up to be the greatest invention of man ever because it is far from it. But they want you to think your superman after you learn this extremely basic set of techniques. That's why these guys go out to the bars and clubs and get their asses whooped by joe blow. Because it builds their confidence, sure they may learn a few things but there is not hardly enough time put into their training nor are they doing the proper training for the situation.
It has been said numerous times that to take a technique and to be able to use it correctly it has to be drilled thousands upon thousands of times, that's not what's happening during their crash courses. So in my humble opinion for the time they have gross motor movements should be taught along with neurolgical shut down spots and skeletal weaknesses of the human body.


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## Kage-Ronin (May 8, 2011)

I am going to quote you something from a buddy of mine:

"No contact: Not hitting = not fighting. Not fighting = not "martial" art. If you are not making contact, you do not know how you will react to contact. if you are not moving at full speed with real intent, then you do not know what full speed and intent will entail. Ergo, you are NOT prepared for actual fighting." 



> For instance stomp out the knee hammer fist the collar bone and snap a few arms if need be. Maybe gouge the eyes rip the ears crush the larnyx. Real down and dirty battlefield effective stuff.


 
So you tell me right now how many people have you heel stomped on the knee, hammer fisted on the collar, snapped arms, gouged eyes, ripped ears, and crushed larnyx in training? 

How many????

My guess is probably zero b/c you can't practice those things at full speed with enough repetition with out running out of training partners, period.



> The focus should be on gross motor movements that you don't have to think about at a spllit second things you would just do.


 
How much thinking is required behind jab/cross/close/clinch/knee or punch/punch/punch/punch/punch sequence? 



> What qualifies me to judge? I started training at 3years old both of my parents were martial arts instructors as well as my grandfather on my mothers side. I have studied a multitude of martial arts gaining instructor certs in a few.


 
Fair enough, but



> I have worked as a bouncer and had to actually use what I know not just theory but practical application.


 
doesn't mean jack in the scenarios we're talking about. 



> Now let's break this down a bit:
> Brazillian jiu jitsu- combat sport
> Judo- combat sport
> Wrestling- combat sport
> ...


 
Those combat sports are the very things that can be taught at full speed, in a training environment, without risk of injury, that can be taken back, drilled endlesssly and built upon.



> I will say that them teaching what they are is a good thing but it has to be taken for what it is. Not blown up to be the greatest invention of man ever because it is far from it.


 
Like I said before, it is a vast improvement from 1988. And I know there's holes in it. For example, I did a straight grappling match with a guy back in '08 over in 5th Fleet AOR who was certified up to level 2 in MACP. (don't have video so sorry) I wiped the floor with him from a strictly sporting standpoint b/c it was strictly jujitsu, he had no choke defense and gave up his back alot. I wouldn't want to jump that same guy in house with all of his gear on b/c he has more options at his disposal (punches/kicks/knees/elbows/M4/M9/the rest of his squad) and no longer constrained by the agreed upon rules of our friendly match.



> And I'm sorry sir but that story you keep posting sounds like a load of ****, I'm sure I'm not the only one that feels that way. Not saying it didn't happen but it sounds a little far fetched.


 
Take it up with the writer, I only saved it for the content.



> Anything said over the net has to be taken at face value nowadays. Dux that's classic. Thanx for the laugh I almost forgot about that guy.


 
You're welcome.


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## tenzen (May 8, 2011)

I firmly believe in making full contact and there is a thing called a red man suit they are used in womens selfdefense classes so the type of tech niques I described can be practiced at full speed. The sporting part is a must but what I'm saying is its only a small part of it. It has its place no doubt but the gaps need to be filled with the types of things they can actually use. And there's more than just the red man suit there are a lot of different dummies that can be used to practice these techniques. Obviously not as great as working with a live person but it can be trained and real fighting ability can be learned. You can also practice these things with a non padded partner by exercising what we in the martial arts world call control. You just gotta know the difference of practice and application. But you can train this way with force. I wasn't talking about empty drilling I find that close to pointless. 
They can be built upon as you said but that is not the case, we both know that. I know that you know what they are being taught instills a false sense of ability. I mean there is no way these soldiers can possibly become proficient in these skills with the short amount of time they have. They need to be programmed to react instinctively to be deadly not to do what they are currently doing. For instance the marines used to have the l.I.n.e.s system and it did just that although it too was flawed it served a real applicable battlefield purpose. That's why it is now taught here at ft bragg when the soldiers go through the sf q course. Ron don vito the creator of lines used to have an academy here I know the guy and he means business. He's in florida now but that's beside the point. Their system is flawed today and is designed solely to teach the newbies to have confidence and to be aggressive, true fighting technique in those systems that are drawn from takes years of training not weeks.
But no matter who's right here we both have our own opinions and we need to let this go because I think we kind of hijacked this thread. Sorry about that guys and girls. My sincerest apologies.


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## Bruno@MT (May 9, 2011)

I don't mind the off topic, but some punctuation and using paragraphs would be nice and make your posts more readable. Noone enjoys large blobs of continuous text.


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## MJS (May 9, 2011)

This is directed at Kage and tenzen.  Other than watching youtube clips of MCMAP or other Army comabtives stuff, I've never seen it live.  So, that being said, someone, I believe tenzen, said that what is taught, is not usually effective with gear on.  That being said, a) why isn't it effective and b) shouldnt the stuff being taught be effective?  I mean, whats the sense of learning something if it only works in a specific situation?  Now, befor someone says something about that, let me clarify.  What I mean is...take a jab and a cross.  That'd be like saying those punches only work if someone is wearing a t shrit.  If you're wearing a winter jacket, you cant throw the jab and cross.  Yes, you can still throw them, though movement will slightly differ due to the jacket.


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## tenzen (May 9, 2011)

What I was meaning is the mechanics of those techniques are held back by the gear that is worn. The vest doesn't allow a good range of movement for motions like that. Its like when you have a dog chained up and you play fetch with him, he can only go so far and its not far enough. The samurai wore armor and understood this that's why they use chopping motions and such in their striking. Armor of any kind will limit your range of motion and that has to be taken into consideration. Also the strikes of boxing and muay thai will tire you out a lot quicker than chopping which can be done with a good amount of force whether you are fatigued or not or wearing armor or whatever. When you become exhausted its hard to hold your arms up and throw them out with any significant force, it is easier to lift your arm and let it come crashing down on structural weak points ie. The temple jaw and collar bone for instance. 
Hope this clarifies a bit.


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## Kage-Ronin (May 9, 2011)

> I firmly believe in making full contact and there is a thing called a red man suit they are used in womens selfdefense classes so the type of tech niques I described can be practiced at full speed.


 
Really? You're going to crush the larnyx in a redman suit? Snap an arm? Break a collar bone? 



> The sporting part is a must but what I'm saying is its only a small part of it.


 
I think it is a large part b/c they can work on things over and over until it becomes part of the muscle memory.



> You can also practice these things with a non padded partner by exercising what we in the martial arts world call control. You just gotta know the difference of practice and application.


 
"No contact: Not hitting = not fighting. Not fighting = not "martial" art. If you are not making contact, you do not know how you will react to contact. if you are not moving at full speed with real intent, then you do not know what full speed and intent will entail. Ergo, you are NOT prepared for actual fighting." 

Also the strikes of boxing and muay thai will tire you out a lot quicker than chopping which can be done with a good amount of force whether you are fatigued or not or wearing armor or whatever. When you become exhausted its hard to hold your arms up and throw them out with any significant force, it is easier to lift your arm and let it come crashing down on structural weak points ie. The temple jaw and collar bone for instance. 


I am sorry but fatigue is fatigue, you will not have the strength to throw ANY blow with ANY kind of force when you are tired. 
But no matter who's right here we both have our own opinions and we need to let this go because I think we kind of hijacked this thread. Sorry about that guys and girls. My sincerest apologies. Yesterday 09:30 PM



> But no matter who's right here we both have our own opinions and we need to let this go because I think we kind of hijacked this thread. Sorry about that guys and girls. My sincerest apologies.


 
Ditto, sorry for the hijacked thread.


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## MJS (May 9, 2011)

Alot of the clips that I've seen, have shown the people wearing tshirts and camo pants.  No other gear.  Again, this is only what I've seen, and I'm sure I may've missed something.  

As I said, I think that they do need some sort of effective H2H fighting methods and it should be trained in any setting in which they may encounter.  

Now, what type of gear are we talking about?  Stuff that they carry or what they're wearing?  If its what they're wearing, what type of protective gear is it?  Some stuff I've seen as far as protective gear, is kinda bulky, but and I know its not cheap, Tony Blauer has some good stuff, that seems to allow good movement.


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## tenzen (May 9, 2011)

No they are not the same when fatigued. When your arms feel like jello you can still deliver a lot of force with the help of gravity to cause damage. Not fighting gravity by throwing your arms out. Also you are using a larger muscle group that is less likely to tire out.
And you can practice doing those things with the red man suit its called control. I begining to wonder about your martial arts pedigree here guy.
And no its not worked over and over and over because they don't have that kind of time. And that's what I have been trying to get at but your just not understanding me here. Their ability is sub par because they don't train for an extended period of time and most don't continue to practice it once they have finished the course. Therefore rendering it ineffective.
And once again I will say you don't have to actually crush the larnyx or break a collar bone to learn how to do it and be able to apply it. You just have to know when to turn on that killer instinct fight or flight. That is the purpose of what they are doing now. They are building that confidence and aggression/ killer instinct. But now they need to teach them to be deadly not be able to fight for 3 rounds and let the judges decide. They have the first part now they need to continue and show them the stuff that will save their lives in a hairy situation. 
Do you follow what I'm saying here?
Because I'm beginning to think that all you know about martial arts is what the military has shown you which is very little. Anyone who has trained for as long as you say you have knows the difference between sport and non sport, but I see your trying to imply they are one and the same. Maybe I'm. Just reading your posts wrong here.


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## tenzen (May 9, 2011)

Also I would like to add they they are not training long enough to develop any kind of muscle memory. So that negates that.


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## jks9199 (May 9, 2011)

For those talking about MCMAP, Army Combatives, the LINE System, and other military hand to hand training -- perhaps you can give us some idea how you know about it.  MCMAP and Army Combatives aren't the same.  The LINE was different yet -- and hasn't been part of USMC training for several years.

There's a big difference between defensive tactics/military combatives, and martial arts, even though there's some overlap.  DT-type approaches generally focus on rapidly acquired, easily learned, gross muscle movements aimed at specific goals (either survival, or subduing & controlling a subject).  They don't care about whys or principles.  Martial arts become more complex; they layer reasons and justifications onto the gross movements, and they refine those movements.  (This is a bit of an oversimplification, but it gives a basis for discussion).


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## tenzen (May 9, 2011)

Lvl 3 combatives instructor for the army and a friend of ron donvito the creator of lines. Yes lines is not taught in the marines anymore but it is taught here at ft bragg to the special forces during the qualifying course. I have trained lines extensively. I believe I have some ground to stand on in this conversation. I have also studied numerous martial arts spanning literally my entire life.

I'm here to tell you what is taught in the armys combatives program in regards to hand to hand is is mma. Also it does not rely on gross motor movements, this may differ in the marines due to the inclusion of lines because lines is part of mcmap.


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## MMcGuirk (May 9, 2011)

Interesting debate.  I don't have a lot of input but more questions I suppose. Please bear with me:

First off for the OP, as far as Bujinkan Budo goes, I think it works great but I'm biased. I've used it in real life against a mugger and it worked great.  
When we have enough people and always in Japan we practice multiple attackers and weapons.  I also run into a lot of current and ex-military from other countries when in Japan so it really affirms my conviction if you learn BBT from the right people it is effective but it is also up to Y O U to practice and be honest with yourself.

As far as MCMAP,  having seen some of the curriculum and looked at the Army combatives I am disappointed in the Army combatives.  The marines seem more realistic when it comes to combatives in the field as much as it pains me to write that.   This is not to say the one on one training is all bad, but when we had "king of the pit" practice ( I was light infantry, Army btw) you did some judo moves, boxing and kicking or just plain tackle as best you can.  God help you if fell because it was dog pile time.  What I'm getting at is if it came to hand to hand something went wrong. And then if it was hand to hand there wasn't any one on one, it would be three on one or the squad on one.  And everyone carried a bayonet.

So finally the question:  what is the training for multiples?  In the light infantry we hardly ever had the 9 man per the org chart.  But we always had multiples in squad, platoon and company size elements.  So any fight you got into, your squad or platoon would be joining in.  the exception might be during a POW snatch and even then two or three guys would similate "grabbing" the guy and just hog tying them.

Hope that made sense.


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## tenzen (May 9, 2011)

Made perfect sense. We did not say that he should not learn bbt nor say it was ineffective, just not what he should choose for the time frame he was given. BBT takes time, time he does not have.

As for your question there isn't anything in hand to hand that covers multiples as far as the army goes. And I appreciate your input in the second paragraph by the way, as it goes along with what I have been trying to get across. Thank you.

There are plenty of methods that could have been taught to save your ***, but they aren't. The main focus in army combatives, like I have been saying from the get go, is to instill confidence and agression in the new and current soldiers. This is because our society has been pussified for lack of a better term. My guess would be some 90% of these soldiers have never been in a real physical confrontation. What is being taught to them is not going to save their *** but get it handed to them. I see it constantly. And that was the whole point I was trying to make. Its not for the battlefield.

Also my arguement was aimed at the armys program because that's what the op said his buddy had experience with if my memory serves me right. I will agree that the marines have a far better program, but even there, there are many many flaws.


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## Kage-Ronin (May 10, 2011)

Sorry it took me a minute to get back to y'all. It's finals week and I am busier than a one armed man sacking rattlesnakes.

So where were we?

Well rather than post a reply with a bunch of your quotes in it, I will attempt to justify why I believe MACP isn't a waste of time.

My own experiences with MACP is, in addition to grappling with that guy, having a pdf. copy of the training manual that he gave me after many long hours of discussion about it (MACP) and arguing about the it's merits while on watch for 6 hours at a time in 130 degree heat.

Ditto with MCMAP, almost the same scenario only the match was with a corpsman who had been with the Marines and had done MCMAP(I forget what belt he was and he gave me a pdf. copy of the manual). Additionally I  have a buddy I mentored during the first half of his career who is now a Seabee that did MCMAP before and during his time in Douchbagistan. We had many hours of discussion about it when he got back.

I did three years of LINE training when I was stationed in SC at the weapons station while I was assigned to ASF.

I am going to have to split this up into two posts since my 16 month old just woke up and I have to make dinner.

Real quick though, my martial arts experience:

Tang Soo Do - 6 months
Karate/judo/boxing - 3 yrs
BJJ - 6 months
JJJ - 4 years off and on
Bujinkan with a little Muay Thai and escrima thrown in  - 1998 to present
back in Judo - July last year to present

I'd be interested in Tenzens' pedigree if he is willing to share.

Okay gotta go chase the baby, more later.


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## tenzen (May 10, 2011)

Father started teaching me muay thai as soon as I started walking when I was 5 my mother started teaching me wing chun from wong sheung leung lineage and william cheung lineage. Around that same time I started danzan ryu jujutsu with my mothers dad. At the age of 8 I started training in ninjutsu. Not sure of my age at the time but my uncle was teaching me bjj he studied directly under royce. Around 12 I dabbled in aikido and hapkido. At 15 okinawan goju. Joined the military at 18 took up interest in military combatives eventually becoming a level3 instructor. Moved back to nc in 05 trained personally with ron and mike donvito. Also trained with sifu david chin in tibetan hop gar and guang ping yang tai chi. Moved to washington state in 07 started pradal serey and kbach kun boran khmer. At the same time I was learning atienza and sayoc kali. I still practice all I have learned never stopped. I also teach privately at my home do to earning instructor certifications in most of what I have practiced. Kind of developed my own thing also it doesnthave any special name because I only teach that to my family. I moved back to nc about a year ago by the way.

Unlike you I have experience with what I have been talking about. Not just something I read from a manual in pdf format. Given the experience you actually have I see why your thinking is the way it is though, it tends to favor what the military combatives program is geared towards. I can't fault you for that. But what I can say is that from what you have told us you have done a lot of talking and reading and have no real experience with it, aside from lines that is.

Its somewhat difficult to explain to you what I have been trying to tell you because you haven't experienced it. I have taught it and I know what its for and what it should not be used for. Unfortunately it is being used and passed off as the greatest thing known to man. Its not and in combat it will get you killed. You can say what you want from here but that's the facts. I think it is a great start to a decent program but the people in charge of creating that program don't understand that it needs to go deeper. I mean you got the confidence and agression part down pat. And weapons techniques are briefly covered, now what needs to take place is the addition of what will work and save your ***. Whether armored injured or fatigued. That part is missing because the mma they teach is extremely basic for one and for two it does not work under those conditions. Being you are practicing the bujinkan arts I would think you could see that.

Now instead of keeping this on going circle of it works it doesn't work going maybe it can die down. Because from here we are just saying the same things over and over. At least that's how I feel about it.


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## tenzen (May 10, 2011)

http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=/&gl=US#/watch?v=rUoJ9RkaQnw

This is a video of sifu chris heintzman, sifu david chins top student demonstrating some of the same chopping types of strikes that I said would be a better choice to use because they are gross muscle movements, these types of strikes would be better in my opinion than what is currently taught due to their effectiveness. They can be applied wearing the full gear injured or fatigued. Here outside of ft bragg there are 2 places to learn this system they have classes allday long and are filled with real combat veterans who see their usefulness. This is the hop gar system. These strikes attack the limbs torso and head. 

Not sure if your up on your chinese history but the number one guy from the ten tigers of canton was a hop gar guy. Everyone else was hung gar. This system was created solely to destroy your opponent, real fighting application not fancy form.

Hope this video helps you understand a small piece of what I meant about the chopping types of strikes as opposed to trying to box in full battle rattle.


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## Kage-Ronin (May 11, 2011)

Okay I know you're Army so I will write in simple sentences so you can try to keep up.(j/k)

First off I never said in any one of my posts that MACP was the end all be all. What I said was is that it is better than what was offered a while back.

Now having said that, I know there's holes in it b/c there are holes in every type of H2H training. There is no end all, be all. Case in point, neither of the guys I rolled with had any kind of choke defense at all. 

But....

Judo, Sambo, boxing, MT & BJJ can all be adopted for fighting outside of a ring with no modification b/c (here is the important part) they can be trained and applied against a fully resisting opponent in class ad nauseum. (Unlike the deadly eye gouge, throat punch, groin tear, etc. )

*So if your guys are learning a good foundation and then they don't take it back and train it to where it is muscle memory, can be recalled when TSHTF, and going back and building on that foundation, then it's not the fault of the program is it?*


BTW my Seabee buddy the combat vet? He used what he learned in MCMAP while deployed, and had great things to say about it.

I didn't click the link you provided b/c I am leery of malware and viruses, no offense. I have spent a fair amount of money on computer repair from that sort of thing. If you can embed a video, that'd be great.

I am not up on CMA history sorry.


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## tenzen (May 11, 2011)

I completely understand about the malware and viruses can't blame you there. And yes I agree that those arts are effective outside of the sporting arena, but not in full body armor and gear. The equipment is too restricting. Can what they teach become muscle memory? Yes but only with years and years of training, which we both know doesn't happen for these guys. They also won't practice what they have learned once they are done learning it, wwell most of them won't. Therefore its not effective. The chopping types of strikes I was refering too that would be better are natural movements that don't need as much training.

I think all in all this has been a great debate/conversation. Thanks man I appreciate that.


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## Kage-Ronin (May 11, 2011)

tenzen said:


> I completely understand about the malware and viruses can't blame you there. And yes I agree that those arts are effective outside of the sporting arena, but not in full body armor and gear. The equipment is too restricting. Can what they teach become muscle memory? Yes but only with years and years of training, which we both know doesn't happen for these guys. They also won't practice what they have learned once they are done learning it, wwell most of them won't. Therefore its not effective. The chopping types of strikes I was refering too that would be better are natural movements that don't need as much training.
> 
> I think all in all this has been a great debate/conversation. Thanks man I appreciate that.


 
So do you ever train combatives in full battle rattle so as to get the full effect?

Likewise. If your ever in or around Arkansas, drop me line and we can meet up for a beer, coffee or something.


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## tenzen (May 11, 2011)

Yeah that sounds good man. 
And yes I train in full gear some times. I train under lots of varying conditions. I tie up an arm sometimes to simulate not being able to use it. I train with hand cuffs on to limit movement that way both behind me and in front of my. I train with my legs bound. I work myself to the point of extreme exhaustion and then spar, both with and without full battle rattle. It keeps the training real because you never know the types of situations you might be in. So whatever my immagination can come up with were the odds are against me I train for it. Martial arts is my life.

I train my children and my wife the same way. Hell both my 2 year old and my 3 year old know how to punch kick knee elbow and headbutt. And my 3 year old already knows 3 chokes armlocks and leglocks. And they can both perform these techniques quite well. Their favorite outside toy is my heavy bag. The 2 year old likes kali a lot. And my 3 year old loves using the katana. Well not a real one she trains with a bokken but you know.

Anyway thanks again for the conversation.


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