# Can you defend yourself with a pocket knife?  Consider this...



## Bill Mattocks

Couple attacked and dragged from their car in San Diego.  Male victim pulls his pocket knife and puts two of the attackers in the hospital.  Yay him!

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/loc...-be-Theives-with-a-Pocket-Knife-98765644.html



> Three to four men started hitting them through the car's windows after they got into their car, Cotellessa said. The man was pulled out of the car and beaten by two assailants. The male victim fought them off, however, with a folding pocketknife, stabbing them several times, Cotellessa said.
> One of the alleged attackers ran away and collapsed inside the doorway of the nightclub, according to Cotellessa, who said the other suspect managed to get away and was driven by a friend to the hospital.
> 
> Source:  Robbery Victim Sends Suspects to Hospital | NBC San Diego ​



It would appear that a pocket knife is not the worst thing you can carry for self-defense.  I'd love to know what he was carrying and how he employed it.
​


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## Dirty Dog

The idea that you need a big blade for defense is silly. A 2" blade is more than adequate to kill or disable an attacker. 

Things to keep in mind:
Blade length has little to do with penetration, since tissues compress. 
Stabs are FAR more dangerous than cuts.
As with a business, the most important factor is location location location...

Most of the people I've seen killed by knife wounds were killed by fairly small blades. Most of the people I've seen who were in a fight involving a large blade were cut, not stabbed, and generally survived. Most of those who are sliced up are discharged from the ER. Most of those who were stabbed get themselves a trip to the OR.


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## David43515

I don`t think that anyone agues that a small blade isn`t lethal anymore. I think the thing that gets argued more is how quickly it kills. Like the "stopping power" arguments about different calibers of bullets. You can kill someone with a .22, but it may take more time for them to drop.

Same thing with a knife. Some argue that for a fast kill you need a deep organ hit, therefore the need for a long blade. But for me it`s all theory, never had to use my knife on anyone and I hope I never do.


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## Bill Mattocks

David43515 said:


> I don`t think that anyone agues that a small blade isn`t lethal anymore. I think the thing that gets argued more is how quickly it kills. Like the "stopping power" arguments about different calibers of bullets. You can kill someone with a .22, but it may take more time for them to drop.
> 
> Same thing with a knife. Some argue that for a fast kill you need a deep organ hit, therefore the need for a long blade. But for me it`s all theory, never had to use my knife on anyone and I hope I never do.



Kind of like my thoughts on the 'best gun for personal protection'.  The best knife for personal protection is the one you have on you and are capable of using effectively.  A rock in an emergency is better than nothing, but a blade is better still, and if one has a pocketknife, one uses a pocketknife.  It's pretty clear that a pocketknife can get the job done, however.


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## Brian R. VanCise

What is really important is that you have some thing that you can access in the moment or before the moment happens.  A pocket knife can be a great equalizer!


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## seasoned

Brian R. VanCise said:


> What is really important is that you have some thing that you can access in the moment or before the moment happens. *A pocket knife can be a great equalizer!*


And legal to carry.


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## Brian R. VanCise

seasoned said:


> And legal to carry.


 
Absolutely.  Add legal knowledge and responsibility and you have a nice tool that in a pinch could help you out!


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## harold

I NEVER go out without my knife. I also practice using it.


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## Gaius Julius Caesar

David43515 said:


> I don`t think that anyone agues that a small blade isn`t lethal anymore. I think the thing that gets argued more is how quickly it kills. Like the "stopping power" arguments about different calibers of bullets. You can kill someone with a .22, but it may take more time for them to drop.
> 
> Same thing with a knife. Some argue that for a fast kill you need a deep organ hit, therefore the need for a long blade. But for me it`s all theory, never had to use my knife on anyone and I hope I never do.


 

The Roman's trained to only put about 3 inches of the Gladus into an enemy, and many accounts of how quickly they took their enemies out of the fight survive.

From under your testicles to your sternum, you don't have to go far anywhere within 4-5 inches of that line to hit something you need to keep living.

My favorite target for stabs is the bladder and all around it.
Blood loss, shock, psychological tramua and poisoning, all in one.

I'm glad this man made it work, yes any knife is better than no knife.
Like I say when discussing firearms and calibers, yes I have my preferences (.45ACP 230 grain Hollowpoint) but I say "I don't want to stand in front of any of them.


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## ap Oweyn

Honestly, I'd be a lot more surprised at the assertion that you _couldn't_ defend yourself with a pocket knife.

There are good reasons why the knife has remained (literally) cutting-edge technology since the dawn of time.  One being that you don't _have_ to be particularly well trained to do damage with one.  What _would be_ ineffectual flailing with your bare hands because really bad news for the other guy once you're holding a knife.  

We can talk all we want about penetration, shock, damage to organs, etc.  But I feel fairly confident that none of us (muggers and carjackers included) are feeling all that casual about getting stabbed or sliced with a knife. Incidentally or no.

Assailants like this are looking for a purse or a car or a laptop.  Not a chance to showcase their empty hand-versus-knife savvy.


Stuart


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## XBOXLIVE

still remember when i got stabbed !


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## Gaius Julius Caesar

ap Oweyn said:


> Honestly, I'd be a lot more surprised at the assertion that you _couldn't_ defend yourself with a pocket knife.
> 
> There are good reasons why the knife has remained (literally) cutting-edge technology since the dawn of time. One being that you don't _have_ to be particularly well trained to do damage with one. What _would be_ ineffectual flailing with your bare hands because really bad news for the other guy once you're holding a knife.
> 
> We can talk all we want about penetration, shock, damage to organs, etc. But I feel fairly confident that none of us (muggers and carjackers included) are feeling all that casual about getting stabbed or sliced with a knife. Incidentally or no.
> 
> Assailants like this are looking for a purse or a car or a laptop. Not a chance to showcase their empty hand-versus-knife savvy.
> 
> 
> Stuart


 
 True but never assume you can just present a blade or cut them once or twice and they will run. Once they engage don't underestimate a Thug's toughness or combative resolve.

 A good deal of the kind of POS that would attack you have done time and knifing is a must have skill in PrisonyLand.

 This is why knowing how to kill/maim quick is important or you will be doing alot of cutting but you still might end up eating your own knife once he gets his hands on you.

 Slash/Plice/Rip the cables, stab the plumbing and all of it to the neck and face.

 Sometimes I don't have anything but a little Hibben Claw on me but it's seriously sharp and fits in my hand in a way that they wount know there is a blade there untill it's to late.


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## ap Oweyn

Gaius Julius Caesar said:


> True but never assume you can just present a blade or cut them once or twice and they will run. Once they engage don't underestimate a Thug's toughness or combative resolve.


 
I didn't suggest that you're safe from attack simply by virtue of _having_ a knife.  Only that someone with a knife needn't be an expert to defend themselves with it.  



> A good deal of the kind of POS that would attack you have done time and knifing is a must have skill in PrisonyLand.


 
Knifing someone is presumably different from _being knifed_ though.  That's less a skill and more something that even unreasonable people go out of their way to avoid.



> This is why knowing how to kill/maim quick is important or you will be doing alot of cutting but you still might end up eating your own knife once he gets his hands on you.


 
Sure.  That could happen.  But I think we then start to get into one of the biggest fallacies of martial arts.  That there's some form of prep work, some piece of equipment you can carry, that _guarantees_ your personal safety.  Fights are, by definition, chaotic.  And the more we up the ante, the heavier the consequences.  

Sadly, there's no way of knowing for sure how all that will play out ahead of time.  Fail to act aggressively enough against someone trying to do you harm and... well, they'll do you harm.  But stab someone in the face repeatedly for trying to knick your wallet, and you're likely to get your own knife training on the inside.



> Slash/Plice/Rip the cables, stab the plumbing and all of it to the neck and face.


 
I can only hope that's harder for a soul to do than it is to say.



> Sometimes I don't have anything but a little Hibben Claw on me but it's seriously sharp and fits in my hand in a way that they wount know there is a blade there untill it's to late.


 
My original point was simply that casual contact with a knife is bad news, so that even an unskilled defender holding a knife is at a considerable advantage to one _not_ holding a knife.  I don't think that an extensive knowledge of angles of attack, sequences of organs, and the like are really vital.  A completely untrained person with a small knife, assuming they don't present it and say "I've got a knife," could do major damage.  Enough to swiftly dispatch several hardened attackers?  Who knows.  Enough to dissuade a carjacking?  Likely.

"_Knife_, meet _important bits_. _Important bits_, knife.  Now, you two play nicely."


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## sgtmac_46

Gaius Julius Caesar said:


> True but never assume you can just present a blade or cut them once or twice and they will run. Once they engage don't underestimate a Thug's toughness or combative resolve.
> 
> A good deal of the kind of POS that would attack you have done time and knifing is a must have skill in PrisonyLand.
> 
> This is why knowing how to kill/maim quick is important or you will be doing alot of cutting but you still might end up eating your own knife once he gets his hands on you.
> 
> Slash/Plice/Rip the cables, stab the plumbing and all of it to the neck and face.
> 
> Sometimes I don't have anything but a little Hibben Claw on me but it's seriously sharp and fits in my hand in a way that they wount know there is a blade there untill it's to late.


 
Keep putting holes in the bucket until all the water drains out.  If you can gouge an eyeball out i'm sure that would certainly hinder their combat effectiveness as well.


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## Deaf Smith

A pocket knife is better than nothing.

And if you can get a chair or even a trash containers top it will help even more.

And grabing one of the attackers and using him for a shield, while sticking him, is another way.

Deaf


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## MA-Caver

The stabbing power of a small pocket folder (2 inch or more blade) all depends upon where. Those who know would say vital areas... but not the heart which is protected nicely by the sternum and rib-cage. 
For me, my target areas are the neck (jugular), upper shoulder or the v between the collar bones (v cava superior) and armpit (same), and as well as the groin and thigh (femoral). All of these will cause the attacker to bleed out and they're very hard to stop and within a few minutes they're incapacitated ... true, within a few more minutes they're dead... _but, isn't that what they wanted from you? _

I've also practiced/trained to give a hard twist after a stab (if possible in the heat of the fight) to prevent the wound from closing, because if I find myself in a situation where I HAVE to use my blades then I'll have that Cobra-Kai attitude of no mercy. 

Both of my favorite folders are more than adequate to do the job. 
In my jeep within (my) reach is a 7 inch survival knife. I'd stab with this just as soon as cut. _Whatever_ opportunity is available to me I'll use/take advantage of.


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## Gaius Julius Caesar

sgtmac_46 said:


> Keep putting holes in the bucket until all the water drains out. If you can gouge an eyeball out i'm sure that would certainly hinder their combat effectiveness as well.


 
Yep and it does not take much to spill from the bucket to have an effect.

Jabbing at and cutting above the eyes is something I practice alot.

Going for the eyes, worked for Mussashi and the reserve Cohort of Caesar's 10th at Pharsala. It's timeless, everyone trys to protect their eyes.


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## oftheherd1

Gaius Julius Caesar said:


> ...
> 
> Like I say when discussing firearms and calibers, yes I have my preferences (.45ACP 230 grain Hollowpoint) but I say "I don't want to stand in front of any of them.



I have seen two men shot with a 45 (granted military ammo) and not be literally blown away as is their reputation.  The stories of those hit with .22 rounds and killed due to the bullet richocheting around inside the body are legend.  I heard of a VC who was killed with an M-16 round that went in one outer thigh and departed from the other outer thigh.  It did not leave and enter either inner thigh.  I saw a man hit in the side of the chest with a .25 auto at point blank range.  It sideswiped or holed the heart, stopping just under the skin on the other side.  The victim ran about fifty yards before he fell dead.  Oddly, another man was shot in the head and received a brain penetrating shot, and survived.  He ran a little over a hundred yards, leaving a blood trail as if someone had run along with a garden sprinkler.  He lost a small amount of motor action, but that was all.  Nasty little things, those small calibers.

So you are right that you don't want to be in front of any bullet, but don't count those small calibers out.  They do kill, and often by richochet.


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## Cyriacus

Well, i certainly think a Knife can work, in good hands. What Knife-Sparring ive done where i train (Theyre duds, but hey) has always completely changed the way you need to approach a situation, in such a way that can make multiple opponents vastly easier. You cant guard up to a knife, since even if its a stabbing weapon, it can slash your arms into submission. You either need to grab the persons arm, dodge, redirect it, or of course use a ranged attack at a high rate of speed. But you ultimately cannot engage the knife - Your forced to be defensive, and even an untrained individual would know that.

Personally, i own a Gerber. I keep it at home, but the main purpose of that is that if i were to, say, wake up in the middle of the night to intrusion, i wouldnt exactly be as awake as id like to be to Engage anyone fully. As such, compensating for that is perhaps a good idea.


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## David43515

I spent several years working for a famous custom knifemaker. During that time I met several customers and trainers who had stories of defending themselves or their loved ones with a knife. We made several longer blades, but most of the stories I heard centered on our smaller blades, 2-4 inches. And I recall several cases where smaller women (some of whom didn`t feel comfortable with firearms) used our knives against multiple male carjackers. Once the women started cutting the bad guys paniced and couldn`t get away fast enough to suit them.


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## Buka

To me, the only questions of a small knife are comfort and dependability of grip, and usually a slower draw. Otherwise, the angles in knife fighting remain the same. 
Smaller knives need to be practiced with, though, if you are going to carry one. The advantage? Court. 
I have different knives, but the one I like the most is a Swiss Army with a pink handle. It would present nicely in court.


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## elder999

You can defend yourself with a _fountain pen, _if you have to....sometimes a bit too well.


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## WC_lun

Like any weapon, you need to know the weapon, its strengths and limitations.  For instance stabbing with a pocket knife is pretty risky.  While it might do damage to your attacker, the blade has no guard so your hand can ride the blade very easily.  Cutting the tendons and muscles in either your hand or fingers can lead to some pretty serious surgeries and phisical rehab.  The typical pocket knife isn't made for combat.  Like anything though it can be an effective weapon, if you are smart about its use...or lucky.


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## OKenpo942

Good points made by all. All I have to say is chalk one up for the good guys. I love hearing about thugs ending up in the hospital or dead due to tyring to prey on the innocent. 

As a side note, I always carry 2 folders. one weak side front pocket, one strong side rear pocket. Yeah, if in a grappling situation, your attacker may find the other one, but by this time, it should be too late. Besides, you know that they are there before he ever decided to "meet" you. He will likely be more concerned with getting away from his new found bladed fury than trying to find another blade on his target. He will be ready to GTFO after first contact.

James


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## chinto

OK, for my two cents worth on this.  the answer is yes.  I would suggest you would at least look at an anatomy book and practice where to cut and stab.

One other note of cation, if you do use the blade you have initiated deadly force, and so you better get with the program for real! That person can use deadly force in responce legally.  also if they are not running they will be looking to do you as much damage as they can!  Ya! that means provably kill you. 

I do not advocate being a victim at all! I am just saying that when you go,  GO FOR BROKE!!!!!!!!! at that point the price of loosing is to DIE!


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## texas_rebel_1980

i carry a folding, lockback knife. its a cheapy throwdown from a sporting goods store, but keeps a fine edge. i use it as a tool everyday. i have thought about how i would employ it as a weapon however. one way i considered was if i was pinned down or in danger of being pounded or choked out. the knife clips to my pocket so it is easy to access and opens with just my thumb. i feel i could grab it, open it and jam it into someone's side or neck in a second or two. 

if you just slice someone they will most likely lose the will to continue the attack. blood causes panic in pretty much everyone, especially their own.


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## elder999

texas_rebel_1980 said:


> i if you just slice someone they will most likely lose the will to continue the attack. blood causes panic in pretty much everyone, especially their own.



Maybe. Most people who are cut in fights don't realize it at first. People who are stabbed typically think they are punched,_and keep fighting_- and there really aren't many places to "just slice" someone that are going to take much will out of them at first without killing them, like their neck.


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## jks9199

elder999 said:


> Maybe. Most people who are cut in fights don't realize it at first. People who are stabbed typically think they are punched,_and keep fighting_- and there really aren't many places to "just slice" someone that are going to take much will out of them at first without killing them, like their neck.


Also -- as was already noted, a knife is automatically using lethal force.  Unless you're fond of dancing with Bubba at the local gray bar hotel... you'd better know how to justify employing it.  Even if your goal was only to "slice them enough to make them panic."


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## Cyriacus

It really depends on the Circumstances. Pulling a Knife on an Unarmed Attacker is quite unnecessary, really. Pulling a Knife on several? Now you have a possibly Valid option.


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## shesulsa

Cyriacus said:


> It really depends on the Circumstances. Pulling a Knife on an Unarmed Attacker is quite unnecessary, really. Pulling a Knife on several? Now you have a possibly Valid option.



I'm not so sure I agree, but it's good that you're sensitive to fairness.


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## Cyriacus

shesulsa said:


> I'm not so sure I agree, but it's good that you're sensitive to fairness.


Im not talking Fairness - I mean, attack me with a Weapon, and frankly, all limits are off, Law be damned.
But if an Unarmed Attacker were to attack me, id rather remain in the midsts of Legality, unless it went too far.

By which i mean, going to Prison over Self Defense is essentially giving time of your Life to the other Person. Its a Lose-Lose, even if you Won.

But if this Unarmed Attacked successfully put me at an extreme disadvantage, if i were carrying a Knife, i would use it.

And just to prove i dont really care about Fairness as much as Logic, i believe that breaking someone Shin or Knee, knowing that it may never fully heal, and may debilitate them when they are older; is a perfectly valid form of Self Defense.


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## David43515

Cyriacus said:


> Im not talking Fairness - I mean, attack me with a Weapon, and frankly, all limits are off, Law be damned.
> But if an Unarmed Attacker were to attack me, id rather remain in the midsts of Legality, unless it went too far.
> 
> _If someone attacks your with a weapon the only limit becomes whether or not they are attacking. If they stop and try to get away from your effective defense let `em go. That`s the main point of the law. But if they`re using a weapon you`re justified in using deadly force. (Some states may require you to get away if you can, but I don`t beleive most do.)
> 
> _
> 
> 
> But if this Unarmed Attacked successfully put me at an extreme disadvantage, if i were carrying a Knife, i would use it.


If it looks like things may go south, just drawing your knife may end (or at least postpone) the attack long enough for you to leave. 
The phrase "Don`t do this,I don`t have anything worth you dying for" can carry alot of weight if they see you have the means to back it up.


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## Kong Soo Do

Bill Mattocks said:


> Couple attacked and dragged from their car in San Diego.  Male victim pulls his pocket knife and puts two of the attackers in the hospital.  Yay him!
> 
> http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/loc...-be-Theives-with-a-Pocket-Knife-98765644.html
> 
> 
> It would appear that a pocket knife is not the worst thing you can carry for self-defense.  I'd love to know what he was carrying and how he employed it.
> ​



Even a small pocket knife is extremely useful as it only takes 2 1/2 cm in the correct spot to get into the heart.  On top of this, many edged weapon practitioners practice what is called 'chiping' which is basically sets the 'victim' up for a slash across the throat.  Much more to knife work than the 'hollywood' hack and slash.


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## Cyriacus

David43515 said:


> If it looks like things may go south, just drawing your knife may end (or at least postpone) the attack long enough for you to leave.
> The phrase "Don`t do this,I don`t have anything worth you dying for" can carry alot of weight if they see you have the means to back it up.


Of course it can - It can also make it Survival Of The Fittest for the other person, if theyve come out Hostile (Shoving whilst Shouting, making Fists)

Of course, defusing a situation before it turns into a constant Exchange is always best. But not always a viable option.
Hope for the Best, Expect the Worst.


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## Kong Soo Do

Cyriacus said:


> Of course, defusing a situation before it turns into a constant Exchange is always best. But not always a viable option.
> Hope for the Best, Expect the Worst.



+1

Discretion is always the better part of valor as they say.


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## David43515

Cyriacus said:


> Of course it can - It can also make it Survival Of The Fittest for the other person, if theyve come out Hostile (Shoving whilst Shouting, making Fists)
> 
> Of course, defusing a situation before it turns into a constant Exchange is always best. But not always a viable option.
> Hope for the Best, Expect the Worst.



I`m sorry, I wasn`t very clear. I knew what I meant by a situation "going south" (constantly getting worse and worse) but I didn`t make it clear that I was responding to the post before mine that assumed I was *already being attacked AND* *was in danger of being seriously injured *because I was already behind the curve and empty hand skills might not be enough to end the fight quickly.I wouldn`t consider brandishing a weapon against someone shouting and shoveing and shaking a fist. They`re all noise at that point and are a low priority threat. I was just reffering to a situation where they`ve already shown they`re ready to use violence and I may already be injured. If that`s the case and there`s been a break in the action that allows me time to warn someone off I`d do it. It seems better somehow than cutting someone up without giving them a chance to back off. Even the meanest dog will usually growl or bark to tell you "leave me alone" before it resorts to biting.


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