# Self-training vs. Formal training



## Calm Intention (May 26, 2006)

I'll just say(after the worry on the other thread),  that my swords all have the correct width of tang- even wider than the depiction I've seen displayed above.


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## Swordlady (May 26, 2006)

Calm Intention said:
			
		

> I'll just say(after the worry on the other thread),  that my swords all have the correct width of tang- even wider than the depiction I've seen displayed above.



BUT...there's more to a *functional* sword than the tang.  It's also the material used (I said it once and will say it again: Stainless steel is usually NOT used for *functional* swords!) and the heat treat.  And don't forget about the blade's distal taper, which helps the sword feel well-balanced.


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## Calm Intention (May 27, 2006)

Swordlady said:
			
		

> BUT...there's more to a *functional* sword than the tang. It's also the material used (I said it once and will say it again: Stainless steel is usually NOT used for *functional* swords!) and the heat treat. And don't forget about the blade's distal taper, which helps the sword feel well-balanced.


 
You're being too kind to me,  but I respect that very much.
Other than the fact that I 'really do' work out with all the weapons I had mentioned(every day),  I'm unfortunately blank to many of the important things you've mentioned.
When you mention 'functional',  if I'm only beating air molecules,  where's my real concern at?
*a little aside here:
I've a pipe I keep at work(they aren't keen on swords ),  and that substitutes as my sword(same length- somewhat more weighted),  and I would say that that is very 'functional',  and possibly more dangerous because 'it is not sharp'.   Somehow,  I think I've not the same respect for it as I do my sword, machette's, cleavers, etc.;;  and I can't go a month without clocking myself in the skull:idunno: .


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## Swordlady (May 27, 2006)

Calm Intention said:
			
		

> You're being too kind to me,  but I respect that very much.
> Other than the fact that I 'really do' work out with all the weapons I had mentioned(every day),  I'm unfortunately blank to many of the important things you've mentioned.



Okay...you acknowledge that you have not been aware of what comprises a *real* sword.  What are you going to do with that new-found knowledge?



			
				Calm Intention said:
			
		

> When you mention 'functional',  if I'm only beating air molecules,  where's my real concern at?



Because a two-foot (or longer) stainless steel blade can snap at any moment, even with a half-powered swing.  Remember what I said earlier about the brittleness of stainless steel without the proper heat treat?



			
				Calm Intention said:
			
		

> *a little aside here:
> I've a pipe I keep at work(they aren't keen on swords ),  and that substitutes as my sword(same length- somewhat more weighted),  and I would say that that is very 'functional',  and possibly more dangerous because 'it is not sharp'.   Somehow,  I think I've not the same respect for it as I do my sword, machette's, cleavers, etc.;;  and I can't go a month without clocking myself in the skull:idunno: .



So...what does that tell you, if you've been hitting yourself on the head?  I also train with a bokken, and I assure you that it gets the same amount of respect as my shinken.  And I haven't hit myself with the bokken yet.


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## Calm Intention (May 27, 2006)

Swordlady said:
			
		

> Okay...you acknowledge that you have not been aware of what comprises a *real* sword. What are you going to do with that new-found knowledge?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Hi SL,

I don't have a car,  but I'm tempted to bring one of my swords to you for evaluation(we are both from Philly right?). 
That pipe is very heavy...by the way;   but true,  if my focus was what it should be- at all times-  I wouldn't inadvertently clunk my noggin now and then.
This is same with my double sticks vs. double machette or cleavers.
It could be that with the sticks,  I go quicker,  and also get mentally lazy- maybe somehow evaluating the potential harm to myself at some subconscious level?? Who knows.
*reminds me of my chess game, and playing a weaker opponent.  A common flaw(whose elemental components are those of discipline and respect-  no different from the arts or any competitive dynamic),  is to go lazy in the face of something that you believe is no threat/challenge.
*That is another example of a character defect within me, common to many,  and would be fatal in real life situations.


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## Swordlady (May 27, 2006)

Calm Intention said:
			
		

> Hi SL,
> 
> I don't have a car,  but I'm tempted to bring one of my swords to you for evaluation(we are both from Philly right?).



Hold on...did you say that you're in Philly?  Why don't you stop by the dojo where I train?  Manogue Sensei teaches the first Saturday of the month (the senior students teach class the rest of the month), and will be in class next Saturday.  Send him an email through our website: http://www.flatfishdesign.com/yagyu/



			
				Calm Intention said:
			
		

> That pipe is very heavy...by the way;   but true,  if my focus was what it should be- at all times-  I wouldn't inadvertently clunk my noggin now and then.



There is a heavy bokken called a suburi, but is _not_ used for solo kata work.  It is used for strengthening your arms.  You should definitely NOT be doing anything with a heavy pipe that would result in you getting clocked on the head.



			
				Calm Intention said:
			
		

> This is same with my double sticks vs. double machette or cleavers.
> It could be that with the sticks,  I go quicker,  and also get mentally lazy- maybe somehow evaluating the potential harm to myself at some subconscious level?? Who knows.



Please tell me that your machetes and cleavers are dulled.  Twirling around one sword Conan-style is dangerous enough.  Twirling around _two_ sharpened blades is just downright stupid, to put it rather bluntly.

With all seriousness, come down to the dojo next Saturday.  It's very easy to reach by public transportation.


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## Calm Intention (May 27, 2006)

Swordlady said:
			
		

> Hold on...did you say that you're in Philly? Why don't you stop by the dojo where I train? Manogue Sensei teaches the first Saturday of the month (the senior students teach class the rest of the month), and will be in class next Saturday. Send him an email through our website: http://www.flatfishdesign.com/yagyu/
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Hi SwordLady,

Yep.  All sharp(Ontario Machette's;cleavers are probably equally as sharp as my swords).  Its all about my focus.  I do not recommend any of what I do to the beginner.
I'm in the middle of workout right now in fact.
As I said earlier,  I had/have an alchohol problem,  and in the midst of all this,  I've never(but two minor nicks),  cut myself.  
Why the alchohol?  Bad depression.  
I don't  know if I will show up at your Dojo SwordLady, but its tempting.
You sound true to the arts(and its spirit), and that means alot to me.


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## Charles Mahan (May 27, 2006)

Calm Intention said:
			
		

> Its all about my focus. I do not recommend any of what I do to the beginner.


But... you're not even a beginner yet...  You really do need to either put it down, or for your own safety, get into a dojo so you can at least learn enough not to be a danger to yourself and others.


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## Calm Intention (May 28, 2006)

Charles Mahan said:
			
		

> But... you're not even a beginner yet... You really do need to either put it down, or for your own safety, get into a dojo so you can at least learn enough not to be a danger to yourself and others.


 
*I'll try again,  I wrote for about 15 min, and it didn't take(??).

Anyway,
What is a beginner?
Someone trains in a formal setting for one year and just doesn't get it,  is that person any more a beginner than myself?
For that matter,  the trained person infrequently has mishaps(but accidents happen),  do I blame their 'formal training',  or lack of focus.
I get hurt, or have a mishap,  is it do to my lack of formal training, or is it similar to the trained one who lost their focus momentarily?

I work out in pretty much solo settings, so the chance of someone else encountering me is quite small,  and if they are anywhere near me,  I change what I'm doing so as to protect them.

I understand your concern Charles,  and as far as I see things,  its not the 'training with sharp'  thats the issue here,  its forging a wrong foundation(imprecise movement).  
If you missed it before,  I've a background in chess and did gymnastics back in highschool,  so I know how violation of the obligatory things is bad bad bad;  and these re-inforced habits are difficult to break.....but I am aware.

I'm also aware that the Sword Arts  martial discipline and spirit,  is above the others,  so I understand the concern being shown,  and I apologize for my violation of the tradition.
If the day comes that I get involved in formal training,  I will most certainly do the right thing at that time.


**SwordLady,  I checked the website,  and I know exactly where your dojo is- have passed it often,  and even stretched my neck to see some of the action from the street.  
I may attempt to stop by next week,  thankyou again.


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## Swordlady (May 28, 2006)

Calm Intention said:
			
		

> *I'll try again,  I wrote for about 15 min, and it didn't take(??).
> 
> Anyway,
> What is a beginner?
> Someone trains in a formal setting for one year and just doesn't get it,  is that person any more a beginner than myself?


I am wondering...do you have _any_ formal martial art training?  What frame of reference are you using, in terms of determining your own skill level - since you do not consider yourself a "beginner"?  



			
				Calm Intention said:
			
		

> For that matter,  the trained person infrequently has mishaps(but accidents happen),  do I blame their 'formal training',  or lack of focus.
> I get hurt, or have a mishap,  is it do to my lack of formal training, or is it similar to the trained one who lost their focus momentarily?


One of the difference between a _trained_ person's mishaps and the untrained person's mishaps is that the trained person has an instructor who can usually point out what went wrong.  Or that person could also pick up on the mistake on their own, and learn from it.  The other thing to consider is that a trained person would most likely have some perception of _safety_ in movement, and not try to do anything outside of that realm (hopefully).

An untrained person may not necessarily know what they did wrong, and may very well _continue_ making that same mistake over and over again.  You said that you twirl around sharp blades, sometimes two at a time - even though myself and others have pointed out how _dangerous_ that practice is.  I am familiar with the "figure eight" and have done it in class - as a bokken drill.  And I'm pretty sure that you are NOT doing the "figure eight" correctly, if you wind up clocking yourself on the head.



			
				Calm Intention said:
			
		

> I understand your concern Charles,  and as far as I see things,  its not the 'training with sharp'  thats the issue here,  its forging a wrong foundation(imprecise movement).


Okay...you understand that you are picking up many "bad habits" with your self-training - and you continue with it anyway?  And with very UNSAFE practices, no less?



			
				Calm Intention said:
			
		

> If you missed it before,  I've a background in chess and did gymnastics back in highschool,  so I know how violation of the obligatory things is bad bad bad;  and these re-inforced habits are difficult to break.....but I am aware.


Answer me this: Do you think it would be wise for someone to get up one morning and decide to "self-train" in gymnastics?  Imagine such a person attempting a vault - WITHOUT any formal training whatsoever.  Can you see how things may (and probably will) go wrong?



			
				Calm Intention said:
			
		

> I'm also aware that the Sword Arts  martial discipline and spirit,  is above the others,  so I understand the concern being shown,  and I apologize for my violation of the tradition.
> If the day comes that I get involved in formal training,  I will most certainly do the right thing at that time.


 _Real_ JSA training is accessible to you now.  So what is holding you back from pursuing it?



			
				Calm Intention said:
			
		

> **SwordLady,  I checked the website,  and I know exactly where your dojo is- have passed it often,  and even stretched my neck to see some of the action from the street.
> I may attempt to stop by next week,  thankyou again.


You wouldn't be able to see any "action" from the street, since we train on the second floor.    By all means, stop on by and have a talk with my sensei.  Ask him what he thinks about your current practice.


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## Calm Intention (May 28, 2006)

Swordlady said:
			
		

> You wouldn't be able to see any "action" from the street, since we train on the second floor.


 
I know.  Mostly upper body glimpses from the steps across at the Korean deli.

I once sat in at a school at 7th & Market years back,  so I think I'm supposed to take my shoes off.

1.My skill level?  none
2.Always a beginner,  always learning, always a student- even when 
  trained.
3.clunk on head was not do to a figure 8
4.I'm certain your Sensei would not approve,  and I wouldn't be looking for 
   any approval.
As I mentioned in another thread,  I've possibly the best Aikido philosophy
book there is(Aikido- and the Harmony of Nature; by Mitsugi Saotome),  so from the perspective of understanding that book,  I do think I could assimilate well.


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## Chris deMonch (May 29, 2006)

Reading books about martial philosophy without the context of appropriate training generally falls short. The Heiho Kadensho, a central text of the Yagyu Shinkage Ryu by Yagyu Munenori, is translated and read by a much wider audience than the handful of people actively training in that style. However, this doesn't stop people for whom the book wasn't written from reading it however they want. I used to talk with people and they'd say, "well, I'm influenced by the Yagyu philosophy!" to which I'd say, "oh? So what's that?"
Same thing goes for Musashi's Go Rin No Sho, an Isshin Ryu karate guy (just an example) can read it, but it's doubtful he'll understand it like a guy belonging to Niten Ichi Ryu. 
Anywho, active training trumps book pontification. Without the afformentioned training context all it really enables one to do is wax philosophical about things it's doubtful they completely get in the first place.


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## Flying Crane (May 29, 2006)

Go To Swordlady's Dojo.


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## Lisa (May 29, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> Go To Swordlady's Dojo.



What he said.


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## Swordlady (May 29, 2006)

Chris deMonch said:
			
		

> Anywho, active training trumps book pontification. Without the afformentioned training context all it really enables one to do is wax philosophical about things it's doubtful they completely get in the first place.



Very well said.  By the way, welcome to MT.


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## Kacey (May 29, 2006)

Chris deMonch said:
			
		

> Reading books about martial philosophy without the context of appropriate training generally falls short. The Heiho Kadensho, a central text of the Yagyu Shinkage Ryu by Yagyu Munenori, is translated and read by a much wider audience than the handful of people actively training in that style. However, this doesn't stop people for whom the book wasn't written from reading it however they want. I used to talk with people and they'd say, "well, I'm influenced by the Yagyu philosophy!" to which I'd say, "oh? So what's that?"
> Same thing goes for Musashi's Go Rin No Sho, an Isshin Ryu karate guy (just an example) can read it, but it's doubtful he'll understand it like a guy belonging to Niten Ichi Ryu.
> Anywho, active training trumps book pontification. Without the afformentioned training context all it really enables one to do is wax philosophical about things it's doubtful they completely get in the first place.



Nicely stated.  I'd like to know more about your background and training - would you care to post a thread about yourself in "Meet & Greet"?


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## Chris deMonch (May 29, 2006)

Done and done.


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## Calm Intention (May 30, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> Go To Swordlady's Dojo.


 
I may....I make no promise I cannot keep.
I'm certain I would enjoy the chance,  but at the same time,  I recognize that at this time in my life,  I am not going to be dedicating the requisite time to become either Aikido trained, or Sword trained;; we are talking a long time.


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## shesulsa (May 30, 2006)

If you are not going to invest the required time to become trained, then why are you bothering, may I ask?


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## pstarr (May 30, 2006)

Absolutely.  Go to Swordlady's dojo.  If you truly want to learn a martial art and understand it both inside and out, you need to make a commitment.


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## Don Roley (May 30, 2006)

I'm with Shesulsa.

To excell in martial arts you need to devote a lot into it. You need to also drop your ego and take instruction from another as much as possible. Those that think they have nothing to learn from others- don't. But not because there is nothing the others know that they don't- but rather than they close their minds to the wonderful lessons the rest of us get.

When you train on your own you can allow yourself to believe you are as wonderful as you want to be. But when you _truely_ entrust yourself to a teacher you acknowledge that they will point out things you don't know and are not even aware of not knowing. Being shown that you know almost nothing can be a more severe beating than a physical one. I know that from experience. But the lessons you gain from having these things pointed out to you will help you to improve.

So, the question is whether you want to feel like you are good, or do you want to take the time and investment to actually get better.


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## Calm Intention (May 30, 2006)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> If you are not going to invest the required time to become trained, then why are you bothering, may I ask?


 
That ?? was asked already.  
I guess if the same thinking was applied in other areas of our lives,  we'd all become immobile and 'just do nothing'.
I've answered this,  thankyou.


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## Calm Intention (May 30, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> You need to also drop your ego and take instruction from another as much as possible. Those that think they have nothing to learn from others- don't. But not because there is nothing the others know that they don't- but rather than they close their minds to the wonderful lessons the rest of us get.


 
Is this meant for me Don,  or are you reading something in that just isn't so?


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## Grenadier (May 30, 2006)

Calm Intention said:
			
		

> Is this meant for me Don, or are you reading something in that just isn't so?


 
It's a generic statement to everyone.  Everybody needs to be reminded once in a while in order to keep their cups empty (so they may fill up on knowledge) and their minds focused on the training at hand.  After all, if you go into a fine microbrewery with a stein that's already full of beer, how are you going to get a chance to fill your stein with the microbrewery's wonderful offerings?  You're simply best off leaving any preconceived notions at the doorway, and coming in with a clean slate.  

As for the time problems, CI, the bottom line is, that most folks do have rather busy schedules.  However, despite these busy schedules, if there's something we really want to do, we'll find the time to do it.  You have an wonderful offer from the local dojo, and a chance to get some good instruction from a proven establishment.


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## Flying Crane (May 30, 2006)

Calm Intention said:
			
		

> I may....I make no promise I cannot keep.
> I'm certain I would enjoy the chance, but at the same time, I recognize that at this time in my life, I am not going to be dedicating the requisite time to become either Aikido trained, or Sword trained;; we are talking a long time.


 
This is your chance to learn how to do something right.  It is right there, in your own back yard.  If you don't jump at this chance, then you are really not interested in learning anything and you are just gonna do it your own way, for better or for worse (worse, most likely).  If that is your choice, then so be it.  It's your life.  But then why do you engage in discussion here?  Nobody here is going to be convinced that your "self-training" will be fruitful or even safe.  Everyone here has tried to guide you onto a better path.  But you don't care.  So why are you even here posting on this thread?


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## Swordlady (May 30, 2006)

Calm Intention said:
			
		

> I may....I make no promise I cannot keep.
> I'm certain I would enjoy the chance, but at the same time, I recognize that at this time in my life, I am not going to be dedicating the requisite time to become either Aikido trained, or Sword trained;; we are talking a long time.


 
Um...we only meet once a week (though we are strongly encouraged to _practice_ outside of the dojo), so time shouldn't be that much of an issue.  The question is, how badly do you want to learn a *real* sword art?


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## Cryozombie (May 30, 2006)

Swordlady said:
			
		

> Um...we only meet once a week (though we are strongly encouraged to _practice_ outside of the dojo), so time shouldn't be that much of an issue. The question is, how badly do you want to learn a *real* sword art?


 
I think He's scared you will chop his head off.  I know I would be... Ive seen what you do to those poor, innocent water jugs.


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## Swordlady (May 30, 2006)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> I think He's scared you will chop his head off. I know I would be... Ive seen what you do to those poor, innocent water jugs.


 
Nah...I'm actually quite harmless in person.    Just ask Chris...


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## Carol (May 30, 2006)

Eh, just bring some sticks along in case she gets rough.


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## Phadrus00 (May 30, 2006)

Swordlady said:
			
		

> Please tell me that your machetes and cleavers are dulled. Twirling around one sword Conan-style is dangerous enough. Twirling around _two_ sharpened blades is just downright stupid, to put it rather bluntly.


 
*Rob, looking suddenly guilty and caught, stops performing siniwalli with two machetes and puts them down, turning and walking off into the distance mumbling*

"Man... I was just having FUN...  Friggin' sweet with two blades...  I wasn't gonna hurt myself or anything....   mumble, mumgle, grumble..." 

*grin*  

I Pinch....

Rob


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## Calm Intention (May 30, 2006)

I'm taking a lunch break out on the road and am at a remote...so real quickly.
I've quite a number of times conveyed my 'no formal training'(from the very beginning in 'greet and meet'),  and also made some efforts to put those who 'are really worried',  and not just having your 'own little attitude' problem,  at rest.

But,  seems thats not good enough,  and the little diggaroos continue from some of you.

So,  nice website(it is the best),,  but like I said from the start,  I'll be content to just read from now on.

Its also quite interesting that when I had mention some personal issues,  there is no interest conveyed at all.

I will give SwordLady an A+ in that she knows how to conduct a discussion.   I myself have faltered(I've made humbling comments like this a few times already, but again those are un-noticed by some of you)


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## Chris deMonch (May 30, 2006)

Swordlady said:
			
		

> Nah...I'm actually quite harmless in person.  Just ask Chris...


 
Oh yeah, in training Jen's a real turtle dove. No worries though, woopins are usually handed down by myself or one of the other seniors.

As to Calm Intention, come or don't. At the end of the day it's all the same to us. I'd imagine people are more worried about your safety playing with bladed weapons than your personal problems because this is a weapons art forum, and no one here knows you. Therefore, people speak on what their feelings as to bladed weapons and people's (in this case yours) use of them because as you've said, you have no formal training and don't really know what you're doing. Any private issues keeping you out of the dojo are really none of our business. It's usually when people read a few books or watch some videos and go about touting how great they and their ideas are because Musashi also self trained or whatever that I get vocal.
I believe I read elsewhere that you're a gentlemen in your 40's, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and won't insult you with the "rolled up paper smack on the nose" approach I tend to use with the 13 year old backyard samurai that seem to be everywhere these days. If you're interested in JSA we've got a good group. However, if you don't feel like attending, that's fine too. One of the nice things about koryu is that we're not really under any pressure to keep the mat full.


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## Kacey (May 30, 2006)

Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> Eh, just bring some sticks along in case she gets rough.



I think that for those types of swords, you need a heavy-duty chain - a stick would just get chopped in half!


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## Calm Intention (May 30, 2006)

Swordlady said:
			
		

> Um...we only meet once a week (though *we are strongly encouraged to practice outside of the dojo*), so time shouldn't be that much of an issue. The question is, how badly do you want to learn a *real* sword art?


 
Seems some of the members don't think 'others'(outside the circle), should be.
I've often told people who had things blocking them from attending a dojo,  that if you really want it bad,  you'll train as much you can on your own,  and not feel you must be in a dojo to do so.
I've abided my own advice and circumstances for quite some time,  and frankly,  some members here have an issue with that I'm certain.

I'm learning that just because some are trained,  they still have things to learn also- but then I've always recognized that just because someone holds a belt,  doesn't exempt them from having their own character issues.

*out of curiousity,  did any of you think I'd show up and attempt to do something other than sit and pay attention on Saturday?


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## Chris deMonch (May 30, 2006)

To be honest I didn't give it much thought.  On a given week I'm far more concerned with what my kohai are doing and what I'm trying to do than whether or not we have spectators, as I've said, if you show up fine.  If not, that's fine too.

There's a difference between practicing what you've been shown in the study group while on your own and swinging a sword around without any prior instruction trying to noodle what feels right.  One common thing I hear is that there are many paths up the mountain but we all get there.  Well, no.  Some paths are dead ends, or will walk you off a cliff, or whatever clever euphamism tickles your fancy to get my point across.


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## Swordlady (May 30, 2006)

Calm Intention said:
			
		

> Seems some of the members don't think 'others'(outside the circle), should be.
> I've often told people who had things blocking them from attending a dojo,  that if you really want it bad,  you'll train as much you can on your own,  and not feel you must be in a dojo to do so.


I notice you quoted and bolded the part of my post about "practicing outside the dojo".  Yes, I practice outside of the dojo - what I have learned _inside_ the dojo.

So I ask you again: How badly do you want to learn a sword art?  Do you even know how _hard_ it is to find a genuine teacher of koryu in the States?  There's one literally in your backyard right now.



			
				Calm Intention said:
			
		

> I've abided my own advice and circumstances for quite some time, and frankly, some members here have an issue with that I'm certain.


What we have issues with is that you insist that your solo practice is somehow equivalent to *real* sword training - when in reality, you are simply playing with swords.  And NOT playing safe.


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## Calm Intention (May 31, 2006)

Swordlady said:
			
		

> What we have issues with is that *you insist that your solo practice is somehow equivalent to *real* sword training* - when in reality, you are simply playing with swords. And NOT playing safe.


 
??(the bold).
I think you are very wrong on that- I never made any such claim......copy and paste where,  and I'll never pick up a sword again.

As for Saturday,  the mood and spirit has been destroyed by all this miscommunication; there is no point to attend now-  whatever formality that should have been maintained in this thread,  was lost when the giggle innuendo, mock,  and even subliminal like challenge inference,  was interjected by some of you;;; and even I know that is beneath(way beneath)  Aikido, and Sword discipline.
No one here admits their mistake except myself.


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## pstarr (May 31, 2006)

If you're going to allow some misconstrued innuendo prevent you from undertaking real martial arts training, you're simply looking for excuses.  If you truly _want _to learn, quit jabbering about it and do it.


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## shesulsa (May 31, 2006)

> As for Saturday, the mood and spirit has been destroyed by all this miscommunication; there is no point to attend now- whatever formality that should have been maintained in this thread, was lost when the giggle innuendo, mock, and even subliminal like challenge inference, was interjected by some of you;;; and even I know that is beneath(way beneath) Aikido, and Sword discipline.
> No one here admits their mistake except myself.



Forgive me, but it sounds to me like you never really intended to show.  A chance at observing what real sword training is?  I have to wonder if you really have a passion for learning what budo is really all about ... or if you want to pretend to have a passion for learning what budo is all about.

From your posts and your final withdrawal above, I am more than tempted to believe it's the latter.

I hope for your enlightenment.:asian:


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## Charles Mahan (May 31, 2006)

Calm Intention said:
			
		

> As for Saturday, the mood and spirit has been destroyed by all this miscommunication; there is no point to attend now- whatever formality that should have been maintained in this thread, was lost when the giggle innuendo, mock, and even subliminal like challenge inference, was interjected by some of you;;; and even I know that is beneath(way beneath) Aikido, and Sword discipline.
> No one here admits their mistake except myself.


 
If that's all that it takes to discourage you, then it is perhaps for the best.  Sword training can be very frustrating and is often discouraging.  You most likely would not have worked out long term anyway, and short term students are more harmful to a dojo than they are helpful.


----------



## Grenadier (May 31, 2006)

Calm Intention said:
			
		

> As for Saturday, the mood and spirit has been destroyed by all this miscommunication; there is no point to attend now- whatever formality that should have been maintained in this thread, was lost when the giggle innuendo, mock, and even subliminal like challenge inference, was interjected by some of you


 
I've reviewed this thread from the start, and I would conclude that while some folks put things forth very bluntly (possibly could have used a nicer tone), that nobody was mocking, challenging, or giggling at you.  Sword training is a very serious thing, and requires an enhanced awareness from the practitioner, the desire to commit one's self to the training, and to listen with an open mind, plain and simple.  

Regardless of how you may feel about the situation, they are there to help you.  Even those who didn't exactly sugar-coat their words, are here to help you, and want you to succeed.  However, in order to succeed, it takes the desire and dedication from the would-be practitioner as well.  

If the people posting on this thread didn't care about you, they would have told you to go ahead and start swinging around that poor-quality sword without any fears.


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## Swordlady (May 31, 2006)

Calm Intention said:
			
		

> ??(the bold).
> I think you are very wrong on that- I never made any such claim......copy and paste where,  and I'll never pick up a sword again.



You've admitted in a number of your posts that you have your own "workout" - which involves twirling not one, but _two_ sharp blades.  You also said you don't recommend what you do to a "beginner" - which implies that you already possess some kind of skill.



			
				Calm Intention said:
			
		

> As for Saturday,  the mood and spirit has been destroyed by all this miscommunication; there is no point to attend now-  whatever formality that should have been maintained in this thread,  was lost when the giggle innuendo, mock,  and even subliminal like challenge inference,  was interjected by some of you;;; and even I know that is beneath(way beneath)  Aikido, and Sword discipline.
> No one here admits their mistake except myself.



You are calling our words "innuendo", and suggest that we are "mocking" you and "challenging" you.  I don't see that.  Many of us who posted to you are studying some form of martial art.  Those of us practicing a sword art take what we do VERY seriously.  Studying a sword art of any kind is NOT easy, and takes years of hard work.  I've only been studying for about one and a half years, and still consider myself to be a beginner.  Chris (who is one of my sempai) has been studying Yagyu Shinkage Ryu for several years more than I have.  But as he has said in his introductory post, training is a life-long pursuit.  None of us claim absolute mastery over our art.

Tell me something: What _are_ you trying to accomplish?  You obviously do have some kind of interest in the sword arts; otherwise, you wouldn't have picked up a sword to begin with, and you wouldn't be here.


----------



## Kreth (May 31, 2006)

Self-training, book training, video training, etc; are all worthless without training from a knowledgeable instructor. You need an instructor's input to address bad habits before they become too ingrained to your muscle memory.


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## pgsmith (May 31, 2006)

I think it's time to step back and take a breath here folks. I personally have a very hard time dealing with folks who say that they are "teaching themselves Japanese swordsmanship" because that's pretty much impossible short of killing people to prove your techinique. However, Mr. Calm Intentions never asserted that he was actually teaching himself a Japanese sword art. While I believe that he is a bit arrogant in manner, he has only ever asserted that he likes to play with sharp and pointy objects. Don't really understand the attraction in that sort of thing myself, but everyone's different. So, Calm Intentions likes to play with his swords, and is obviously not interested in actually learning a sword art. There's nothing really wrong with that as long as you make sure and tell the newspapers, if you seriously injure yourself, that you have never had any training. I think that the main reason you are getting such a hard time sir, is that this is a forum for the Sword Arts, not the playing with sharp things arts. Thus the vast, and vocal, majority on here are going to seriously hammer you because they sincerely believe in the arts that they are practicing while you, on the other hand, are not practicing any. Since I love an analogy, it would be akin to me going to an airline pilot's forum and telling everyone how much I love RC airplanes. Then complaining because they all jumped on me and told me to go get a real pilot's license. 

  Just the way I see it, other's opinions may vary.


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## Don Roley (May 31, 2006)

It is obvious to me that Calm Intention really was never interested in formal training and was only looking for an excuse not to go. And yes, I think it is best that he not show up to training since he does not have the outlook and spirit of a warrior and would just waste everyone's time in class.

But I have to caution him on this point....

CI, you complained about how people were down on you for the way you train and you want people to leave you alone to have fun. OK, but when you post something that we know to be dangerous and stupid (self training w/ no instructor, live blades, stainless steel) if noone steps up and says that is stupid, others who read this forum may think that it is an accepted practice. That may encourage them to follow your lead down a dangerous path.

So if you keep to valid questions, you probably will not get much grief. But if you want to tell people you do things that run counter to what people with more knowledge and experience than you know to be true, then it is a _civic duty_ for them to tell the world that what you are doing is wrong.

If you keep that in mind, things will be calmer around here.


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## shesulsa (May 31, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> CI, you complained about how people were down on you for the way you train and you want people to leave you alone to have fun. OK, but when you post something that we know to be dangerous and stupid (self training w/ no instructor, live blades, stainless steel) if noone steps up and says that is stupid, others who read this forum may think that it is an accepted practice. That may encourage them to follow your lead down a dangerous path.
> 
> So if you keep to valid questions, you probably will not get much grief. But if you want to tell people you do things that run counter to what people with more knowledge and experience than you know to be true, then it is a _civic duty_ for them to tell the world that what you are doing is wrong.
> 
> If you keep that in mind, things will be calmer around here.



Indeed, it is the responsibility of formally trained individuals to caution those with little or no training on the seriousness of their actions and "self-teaching" methods.  It is part and parcel of receiving the training.  it is, as Don Roley puts it simply, _civic duty_.

Peace.


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## Calm Intention (Jun 1, 2006)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Indeed, it is the responsibility of formally trained individuals to caution those with little or no training on the seriousness of their actions and "self-teaching" methods. It is part and parcel of receiving the training. it is, as Don Roley puts it simply, _civic duty_.
> 
> Peace.


 
Very true; 100% in agreement.  And they should leave it to that- there is a difference between that, and what has transpired here.


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## Calm Intention (Jun 1, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> 1.*It is obvious to me that Calm Intention really was never interested in formal training and was only looking for an excuse not to go. And yes, I think it is best that he not show up to training since he does not have the outlook and spirit of a warrior and would just waste everyone's time in class.*
> But I have to caution him on this point....
> CI, you complained about how people were down on you for the way you train and you want people to
> 2.*leave you alone to have fun*
> ...


 
1.touche,  I love ones who know others intentions.
2.find the quote...but you won't
3.I've not promoted it- there's a sharp difference when i talk about training on your own,  and weapons workouts......did I mix those, or are
 you assuming again to make me look bad?
4.Not when people are being subjective &  see and hear what they desire.
*Its criminal to misrepresent someone fella, have you really read what I've wrote?


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## Calm Intention (Jun 1, 2006)

pgsmith said:
			
		

> I think it's time to step back and take a breath here folks. I personally have a very hard time dealing with folks who say that they are "teaching themselves Japanese swordsmanship
> " because that's pretty much impossible short of killing people to prove your techinique. However, Mr. Calm Intentions never asserted that he was actually teaching himself a Japanese sword art.
> 1.*While I believe that he is a bit arrogant in manner, he has only ever asserted that he likes to play with sharp and pointy objects*
> . Don't really understand the attraction in that sort of thing myself, but everyone's different. So, Calm Intentions likes to play with his swords, and is obviously not interested in actually learning a sword art. There's nothing really wrong with that as long as you make sure and tell the newspapers, if you seriously injure yourself, that you have never had any training. I think that the main reason you are getting such a hard time sir, is that this is a forum for the Sword Arts, not the playing with sharp things arts. Thus the vast, and vocal, majority on here are going to seriously hammer you because they sincerely believe in the arts that they are practicing while you, on the other hand, are not practicing any. Since I love an analogy, it would be akin to me going to an airline pilot's forum and telling everyone how much I love RC airplanes. Then complaining because they all jumped on me and told me to go get a real pilot's license.
> ...


 
Not being formally trained, doesn't necessarily translate to playing.
Its quite amazing still how it reeks from the membership this disdain for my lack of training, more than any concern for my safety;;  and also the deliberate avoidance of my comments that I've rarely a nick to my person with all my personal training,  no kind of encouragement, etc.

Hey guy,  "point sharp objects".  Listen,  so if I had formal training and a blackbelt,  "point sharp objects" becomes o.k.?  Please.


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## Calm Intention (Jun 1, 2006)

Swordlady said:
			
		

> You've admitted in a number of your posts that you have your own "workout" - which involves twirling not one, but _two_ sharp blades. You also said you don't recommend what you do to a "beginner" - which implies that you already possess some kind of skill.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Well,  where's your 'copy-paste' that I requested?  You mistaked(you're last post accused me of something),  and I accept that,  but admit it as I've admitted my shortcomings.

You've trained less than 2years?  I've said "10 years formal training" would give me proficiency!!!   And I'm being criticized, called arrogant, etc.

Hmmm, no apology, no copy or paste of my so-called comments of 'being equal'.


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## Calm Intention (Jun 1, 2006)

pstarr said:
			
		

> If you're going to allow some misconstrued innuendo prevent you from undertaking real martial arts training, you're simply looking for excuses. If you truly _want _to learn, quit jabbering about it and do it.


 
What are you talking about?  Did you/can you...read the thread?
I was invited to an event(or a class),,  and that has nothing to do with joining a school.
Its amazing how everyone assumes so much here.  

"my advice":   in battle,   never assume.


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## Calm Intention (Jun 1, 2006)

Charles Mahan said:
			
		

> If that's all that it takes to discourage you, then it is perhaps for the best. Sword training can be very frustrating and is often discouraging. *You most likely would not have worked out long term anyway*, and short term students are more harmful to a dojo than they are helpful.


 
So knowledgeable Charles.
One thing I do know,  I hope you are not someones Sensei- you've the wrong attitude yourself, and would inject/implant negativity in your students.

Actually, I've probably more the 'martial attitude' than most you know(though me lesser self is not displaying such here--- I even know it).

*just want to thank all again for your subjectiveness,  and splicing my earlier comments to suit your personal agenda.


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## Don Roley (Jun 1, 2006)

Calm Intention said:
			
		

> .I've not promoted it- there's a sharp difference when i talk about training on your own,  and weapons workouts......did I mix those, or are
> you assuming again to make me look bad?



You don't seem to understand, people like you should not be working out at all with a live blade unless it is under the direction of a qualified instructor. So when you talk about using a real sword, we have to do our civic duty and tell you and the world just how bad an idea that it.

FYI when you say, "Not being formally trained, doesn't necessarily translate to playing" we know that you *are* playing. The sword is something that takes the right attitude. The attitude you have shown here and your eagerness to grab any excuse to go to real training is clear to all of us.

And I can understand why you want to think that you are somehow qualified and full or warrior spirit, but speaking from my greater experience you still lack even the basic attributes needed and I doubt you ever will. If you really don't care what we think about you, why do you keep posting?


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## pstarr (Jun 1, 2006)

If you want to learn, go to a good school and train.  Hard.

If you want to play, buy a toy sword and play.

Don't confuse the two-

I have nothing else to say at this point.  You either have what it takes to make a commitment and learn, or you don't.

Here endeth the sermon.


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## Lisa (Jun 1, 2006)

_*MODERATOR WARNING:

Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

Lisa Deneka
Senior Moderator, MartialTalk*_


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## Grenadier (Jun 1, 2006)

Calm Intention said:
			
		

> You've trained less than 2years? I've said "10 years formal training" would give me proficiency!!! And I'm being criticized, called arrogant, etc.


 
CI,

We're beating a dead horse here, so I'll simply get one last clubbing in, and move on.  

First, and foremost, you're selling yourself a bit short here.  A student who has an open mind, and is willing to dedicate himself to learning a sword art from a good teacher, doesn't need 10 years to "get it."  

Even a relatively small amount of formal training will beat out any number of years of self-training.  

You would be amazed at what formal training can accomplish, compared to self-training.  Even if someone has only had a few months of honest to goodness, formal training in a sword art (be it Iaido, Kenjutsu, Kendo, Fencing, etc), they're going to be MUCH better off than someone who was swinging around a sword for 10 years, and didn't have someone to guide him.  

If a dedicated student had trained for a year, and had shown good proficiency and responsibility, then I'd have no problems with that student training at home, as long as the training was a rehash of what was learned in the dojo.  I would not, however, want this student trying to invent new things on his own.  

It's just like the empty hand training.  I tell students to punch, kick, block, and move in a specific manner.  Once they learn how to do this, then I don't have any qualms about their practicing at home, as long as they follow the path that I gave them.  However, if they deviate from the course, and start practicing incorrect techniques that they "discovered" on their own, then that's where I'll explain to them, that their self-training is doing more harm than good.  Ask yourself this: If I didn't tell them that their "self-trained" techniques were incorrect, would they ever learn in an expeditious manner?  

CI, I wish the best of luck to you, but do hope that you will listen to the others (who have given you excellent advice), and at least start on some sort of formal training, if you want to learn how to use a sword.  I really don't have any particular preference as to what you should learn (nor should I, since it's your choice), but there are opportunities near you (and excellent ones at that).  You're located in an area that has a legitimate JSA school, as well as many, many schools dealing with Western fencing.  

Please start somewhere, if you want to use a sword.


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## shesulsa (Jun 1, 2006)

Calm Intention,

It is extremely unfortunate that you can't see that the following of civic duty - not just to inform you of the error of your attempt at training, but the insistence that you understand exactly how dangerous what you are doing is - is at the core of all replies to you.  I think you are caught up in the words and refuse to see the forest for the trees.

It's also too bad that rather than open your mind to understanding how adamantly other experienced students and swordsmen have stated their required position in ths matter, you have chosen to turn tables and point an unexperienced, unknowledgeable finger at others who are here to help you.

It is this particular posture which usually exposes that one is not a student by choice and, hence, not a peer (or to use your word, 'equal').

You are not the only person to come forward admitting "self-training" with swords who has been so admonished as well.

I will no longer engage in this discussion other than to say I hope for your enlightenment and proper training as well as your safety.


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## Andrew Green (Jun 1, 2006)

This thread is reminding me of Darwin awards....

For a laugh, here's some sword related mishaps:

http://www.tsuki-kage.com/darwin.html

Seems these pointy things are dangerous... who would have thought?


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## Charles Mahan (Jun 1, 2006)

Calm Intention said:
			
		

> So knowledgeable Charles.
> One thing I do know, I hope you are not someones Sensei- you've the wrong attitude yourself, and would inject/implant negativity in your .


 
I am not an instructor.  I will lead the occasional class when sensei is unavailable, but I'm not an instructor no.  That said, I've been training for around 9 years now and I've seen a lot of people come and go.  Training can be very frustrating and discouraging for most people.  Only those able to deal with the disappointment and have the fortitude to continue training even when things seem hopeless stick around long term.  You were discouraged very easily from attending class.  Some faceless folks on the internet encouraged you to stop messing around and going to class.  Your feelings got hurt and you decided not to go.  These are not the actions of the kind of person who sticks around long term.  

I'd be happy if you proved me wrong.  Got into class, joined up and trained for a good 30 or 40 years.  It just doesn't seem likely based on your comments of not having time to train properly.  Not really caring if what you do is legit or not.  You just don't strike me as the kinda chap that sticks around long term.  That my opinion, or truly the opinion of any of us, means anything to you doesn't strike me as a good sign either.  Looking for external validation is not a good idea when you are training, let alone when you aren't.

Don't tell us you don't care what we think when you're still making posts to "clear your good name" so to speak.


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## Calm Intention (Jun 1, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> FYI when you say, "Not being formally trained, doesn't necessarily translate to playing"
> 
> 1."*we know that you are playing*". The sword is something that takes the right attitude.
> 2.*The attitude you have shown here and your eagerness to grab any excuse to go to real training is clear to all of us.
> ...


*

1.If I were playing(as you say), and you've read my range of workout,
   why do I employ at least a selection of 8 weapons, practice in doubles,
   have barely ever suffered a nick to myself(though I've dropped at 
   times....can't stop gravity),  have been doing this for a number of 
   years,  etc.    Where is play involved?
   *this is my meditation to me,  and one of the few things that gives
    me peace of mind,,  it is my personal discipline too

2.I certainly have had 'attitude' here,  and have embarrassed myself too.
   But my  'wrong attitude'  here,  would not translate to the dojo
   *I've claimed a reason as why the dojo might not be possible for me-but
     everyone knows my reason better....go figure.
   *attendance on Sat is out for reasons I mentioned before

3.This is exemplarary of what I define as antagonistic like comments being
   selectively tossed in.   Language is nuanced,  and I'm not so certain
   that I obfuscated myself to the point where I can't be better 
   understood,  so comments like yours aren't made

4.I keep posting because I feel there is something wrong when the type
   of individuals I've had the most respect for in my adult years(especially
   the discipline the members in this forum practice),  are taking me to 
   task in the  manner that I see,  and not leaving the criticisms where 
   they should be.
   I really should've practiced my own discipline and walked away from 
   this earlier.
   *my attributes??   I'll leave now on that one,  because again,  thats
   like a thumb in my eye.*


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## splice42 (Jun 1, 2006)

Calm Intention said:
			
		

> So knowledgeable Charles.
> One thing I do know,  I hope you are not someones Sensei- you've the wrong attitude yourself, and would inject/implant negativity in your students.
> 
> Actually, I've probably more the 'martial attitude' than most you know(though me lesser self is not displaying such here--- I even know it).


Are you really telling us that you, who haven't been to a formal class or trained in a traditional sword art in a dojo, have a "more martial attitude" and a better idea of what a sensei would think of your training and behavior than people who have spent years watching students come and go, not only in their own dojo but others?

I personally couldn't care less what you do and how you do it, practice on your own all you want, as long as you follow basic safety precautions when around other people. But really, without experience in traditional sword arts, your opinion about what a sensei should think and who has the "more martial attitude" is pretty irrelevant. You honestly have no basis for your judgment that is significant in the context of traditional japanese sword arts, for the simple reason that you're not involved in any way with them.

In fact, your claims to having the "more martial attitude" (love that expression) and your criticism of others' behaviours are very common amongst those who self-train. After all, it just wouldn't do for them to admit that what they're doing is very thinly connected to traditional swords arts, if at all, and has much more to do with swinging a bar of metal around to little purpose. It certainly can be a good work-out, it can be fun, you can fantasize about different situations and how you would react to them, what effect your cuts would have, make up grand duels in your head, it's all good. It just isn't a traditional japanese sword art.



> _    But my  'wrong attitude'  here,  would not translate to the dojo_


PS: The attitude you display outside of the dojo is just as important, if not more important, than that in the dojo. It takes no thought to comply with rules and etiquette in the dojo, where it is demanded by your teacher. It takes a budoka to take that attitude and make it a part of their life. Even on message boards. Especially on message boards.


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## pgsmith (Jun 1, 2006)

> Not being formally trained, doesn't necessarily translate to playing.
> Its quite amazing still how it reeks from the membership this disdain for my lack of training, more than any concern for my safety;; and also the deliberate avoidance of my comments that I've rarely a nick to my person with all my personal training, no kind of encouragement, etc.


You can try and tell yourself whatever you wish sir, but no formal training *does* translate as playing. You've no real idea what you are doing, or what you are supposed to be doing, so you made it up. It may be difficult, look impressive, and be a great workout, but it is still playing with swords as opposed to training in a sword art. Too bad if that makes you feel inferior or anything, but that's the bald truth of it. Also, just because you've been careful (which I applaud by the way) means absolutely nothing about the validity of what you're doing. It simply means that you play carefully. (which I applaud by the way) I refuse to give you any sort of encouragement. I consider what you are doing to be quite dangerous, and it could potentially have a backlash onto those of us that actually train under a legitimate instructor.


> Hey guy, "point sharp objects". Listen, so if I had formal training and a blackbelt, "point sharp objects" becomes o.k.? Please.


I'm not exactly sure just what that statement means. I think you are trying to ask if it would be different if you had formal training, and the answer would be yes. If you had formal training, you would know what to do and what not to do instead of making it up and potentially having a major disaster. 


> 1.If I were playing(as you say), and you've read my range of workout, why do I employ at least a selection of 8 weapons, practice in doubles, have barely ever suffered a nick to myself(though I've dropped at times....can't stop gravity), have been doing this for a number of years, etc. Where is play involved?
> *this is my meditation to me, and one of the few things that gives me peace of mind,, it is my personal discipline too


Well, that's all wonderful, but all that means is that this is a serious game to you. Still a game, but you take it seriously. Would you classify baton twirling as playing? That's basically all you are doing, baton twirling with dangerous batons. Not that there's anything wrong with that, it simply has no bearing or relation to what this forum is about.


> 2.I certainly have had 'attitude' here, and have embarrassed myself too. But my 'wrong attitude' here, would not translate to the dojo
> *I've claimed a reason as why the dojo might not be possible for me-but everyone knows my reason better....go figure.
> *attendance on Sat is out for reasons I mentioned before


Your excuses for not learning are simply that ... excuses. Everyone else on here that has had the desire to learn has figured out a way to get to legitimate training, you prefer not to. Also, you cannot turn on and off your attitude. It is part of who you are. I think I can safely say that you would not last very long in my dojo. I've watched dozens just like you come and go.


> 3.This is exemplarary of what I define as antagonistic like comments being selectively tossed in.


I explained to you why you were likely to get nothing but antagonism on this forum. However, you refuse to listen to anything that isn't your own thought already.


> 4.I keep posting because I feel there is something wrong when the type of individuals I've had the most respect for in my adult years(especially the discipline the members in this forum practice), are taking me to task in the manner that I see, and not leaving the criticisms where they should be.


The criticisms are exactly where they should be sir. You have an erroneous idea of what is involved in training in the sword arts, and an idealistic view of how those that train should act. Those are simply your misconceptions sir, and it is not our problem, it is yours.


> I really should've practiced my own discipline and walked away from this earlier.


Yes sir, you should have. At the point when it became apparent that _everyone_ that has been studying the sword arts for a while had a different opinion from yours. If you had any of that discipline you talk about, or even a slight bit of an open mind, you would have been able to stop and ask yourself _why_ all of those with experience had a different opinion than you. Istead, you complain about our opinions and believe that we are _all_ wrong and that you know better. That's all well and good, but it won't keep you from getting harrassed for those views.


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## Edmund BlackAdder (Jun 1, 2006)

One cannot "self train" and hope for any level of real success.

We seem to be seeing a growing number of dreamers logging onto message boards, thinking that they are somehow doing warrior training, waving their $49 Flea Market Special around in their back yard, trying to mimic "The Last Samurai" or "Samurai X".  Well, fools will do as fools will do.  Hollywood tricks and decorative replicas, true training does not make.  I don't care how many times to try to convince us otherwise. Those with -REAL- training, will always see you as little more than a "wannabe".

A real sword is not made from Stainless Steel. Period.
A real sword does not have a little welded rat tail on it.
A real sword does not come in a plastic scabbard.
A real sword is not found at the mall knife shop, the flea market, or the mail order collectible shop.

Just because it was listed "functional" or "sharp" doesn't mean it's safe to use. 

Let me repeat that, because some morons don't get it.

*Just because it was listed "functional" or "sharp" doesn't mean it's safe to use.*

95% of the swords sold are sold for decorative purposes Only!
That means, they are meant to look nice hanging on your wall, mounted over the fireplace, or on a rack on a shelf. 

*They are not meant to be used, in any way, shape or form.*

Why?

*Because.
Because they are not designed for use.
Because the balance is all wrong.
Because the steel is not going to hold up to use, and may shatter.
Because the edge will not hold an edge.
Because the fittings are also not designed to holdup to use.*

Trying to train with a wall hanger will not make you better.
It will not help you "do what I can for now".

It will train you to do things improperly, as you compensate for the POS's failings.

It puts you at risk of greater injury than if you were training with a real live edge sword.

Too many places today are passing laws restricting or flat out denying sword training and ownership.
Why?

Because of the actions of morons who think that waving around a 440 stainless $89 Internet Special is akin to real training.

Real sword training starts using wooden swords.
The JMA calls them Bokken, the WMA, "Wasters". 
Yes. Wood. Nice Oak hardwood swords, shaped and balanced like the real deal.
They don't use the Bud-K Specials.

Real sword training doesn't come from reading a book, or watching a video.
It comes from personal guidance, from someone who already knows something. This is most especially needed today, since you are most likely not going to beat off some bandits later this evening while traveling to Kyoto looking for Yahiko.

So, to those of you with a clue, who are here to share your experience, wisdom and knowledge, Thank You!  Some of us appreciate the efforts you make and time you spend here. Not all of us are content to live purposefully stupid and in a dangerous fantasy world. Your reality is a welcome oasis, in a desert of cartoon fools.

And to those of you so stupid as to continue swinging that wall hanger, pretending that what you do has any value at all, and continuing to ignore the massive safety risks you are placing yourself, and those around you at, all I can say is that I hope you somehow wake up, before you hurt, maim or kill someone in your continued stupidity.


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## Andrew Green (Jun 1, 2006)

So... what you are saying is this is not the sword for me to order?


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## Swordlady (Jun 1, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> So... what you are saying is this is not the sword for me to order?



LOL!  Um...no.    I would also stay away from BudK.  The last time I checked, they didn't have a single *functional* sword on their site.  Oh wait...I take that back.  They now have a couple Cold Steel swords for sale.

Thanks for posting a link to that video.  I posted a link to it in the Stickied "Anatomy of a wallhanger katana" thread.

Edited to correct the URL.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 1, 2006)

Interestingly enough, I do own the object in the video. LOL

I wouldn't recommend it be used for anything other than dust collecting. lol


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## Bigshadow (Jun 1, 2006)

I thought I would never see the day where Bud K would actually be mentioned on this site!  :rofl:  Their stuff is just for collecting dust as Bob said.  They are the internet version of the fleamarket sword dealer(s).  HAHAHA :rofl:


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## Calm Intention (Jun 3, 2006)

pgsmith said:
			
		

> **Too bad if that makes you feel inferior or anything*,
> **.* I refuse to give you any sort of encouragement. I consider what you are doing to be quite dangerous, and it could potentially have a backlash onto those of us that actually train under a legitimate instructor*.
> 
> ****Your excuses for not learning are simply that ... excuses. Everyone else on here that has had the desire to learn has figured out a way to get to legitimate training, you prefer not to. Also, you cannot turn on and off your attitude. It is part of who you are. I think I can safely say that you would not last very long in my dojo. I've watched dozens just like you come and go*.
> ...


 
*I've expressed inferiority concern here,  or are you misreading again?
  Limited dictionary= limited understanding, and ability to convey
  ...or do you just wish to hit below for some unconscious reason?

**I respect that answer,  and I agree

***Hmmm,  putting one apple in with the  whole bunch, based on a 
     limited set of traits you recognize......quite dangerous if employed
     in a jury setting,  handwriting analysis,  and a multiplicity of other 
     real life circumstances....Doctor- thankyou for the evaluation
Tell me,  what is my current state of health, sleep patterns,  stress levels,  peripheral events
that disallow me to run my life as I'd like it?
I've bradyacardia(spell check),  which at times sends my heart down to mid to upper 30 bpm.
Yes,  paradox,  because for my age,  I'm probably in better shape than some 20 year olds- but
I must watch the heart, and avoid all stress possible.
I've also a neurological issue that can cause me to freeze, slur, cause mental confusion.

I guess you know all this right?  That telepathy thing?

?:  ?>?  you do admit antagonism vs. criticism then
?:  ?>?  precious, redundant attempt to malign and confuse what I've
           said
?:  ?>?  are you speaking for everyone with this 'harrassment, and the
           antagonism'?   Is this the 'method'  of teaching?

Well,   you did mention the word 'criticism' once,  so I think you possibly
mistaked your words.   I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

In all honesty,  I feel like someone who's always been others door mat(for one reason or another), and have not been able to lead my life as I would have liked to;  and that is why it hurts alot when this judgement about me not having 'what it takes' is made of me.
Yep,  I've some problems; especially the last few years.  
There is no way I could give the type dedication required for this art, nor any other,, but I am dedicated to my personal workouts,, and as I have said,  I do not recommend what I do to anyone else- I'm a very consciencious person,  and conscious of what is right and wrong.

Also,,  my shift in attitude(if noticed), is Mr. Jack Daniels speaking,  and that is another issue that I must deal with.   And if I can't give that up,  I am not material for your art and discipline.


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## Charles Mahan (Jun 3, 2006)

Calm Intention said:
			
		

> Also,, my shift in attitude(if noticed), is Mr. Jack Daniels speaking, and that is another issue that I must deal with. And if I can't give that up, I am not material for your art and discipline.


 
Actually on that point you'd be wrong.  Those of us who don't drink are the ones out of place in the JSA world 

Look, none of us care enough about you to deliberately try to tear you down.  You posted some things which are not generally accepted, namely the idea that you can train in a meaningful and safe way without needing proper instruction.  Most of us recognize this as a dangerous thing to advocate online and we chose to speak up and point out that it was a bad idea and encouraged you to find proper instruction.  As has been pointed out, those of us who do train feel responsible to make sure that when these assertions are made, they are challenged so that other readers will not think this is a safe and acceptable way to train.  You got real defensive instead of acknowledging or accepting the advice.

It's really that simple.  As to your personal problems, they aren't relevant to the core issue, that being the acceptability of self training without any form of instruction.  Long story short, swords are built to kill people.  They are dangerous weapons, even when training alone, even when not hitting anything with them. 

Can you at least acknowledge that the forum community has a responsibility to advice people against behaviors and activities deemed to be irresponsible and dangerous?


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## Calm Intention (Jun 3, 2006)

Charles Mahan said:
			
		

> :idunno: *Actually on that point you'd be wrong. Those of us who don't drink are the ones out of place in the JSA world*
> 
> :idunno: *Look, none of us care enough about you to deliberately try to tear you down*.
> You posted some things which are not generally accepted, namely the idea that you can train in a meaningful and safe way without needing proper instruction. Most of us recognize this as a dangerous thing to advocate online and we chose to speak up and point out that it was a bad idea and encouraged you to find proper instruction. As has been pointed out, those of us who do train feel responsible to make sure that when these assertions are made, they are challenged so that other readers will not think this is a safe and acceptable way to train. You got real defensive instead of acknowledging or accepting the advice.
> ...


 
Hey Charles,
!!Are you being a wiseguy, or haven't you read my multiple attestments to
what you're asking?  I don't like wiseguys...so you'll know.  I have repeatedly confessed this.

And Charles,  you personally should never be anyones Sensei(just look at the bold type I circumscribed around your comments); you've a problem son.   Get over yourself.


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## Lisa (Jun 3, 2006)

*SECOND MODERATOR WARNING:

Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you.

Lisa Deneka
MT Senior Moderator
*


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## Charles Mahan (Jun 3, 2006)

Calm Intention said:
			
		

> Hey Charles,
> !!Are you being a wiseguy, or haven't you read my multiple attestments to
> what you're asking? I don't like wiseguys...so you'll know. I have repeatedly confessed this.
> 
> And Charles, you personally should never be anyones Sensei(just look at the bold type I circumscribed around your comments); you've a problem son. Get over yourself.


 
No I'm not being a wise guy.  You've said a lot of things you later retracted.  I just wanted to be sure I understood you on that point.

As to the bold type...

If you knew much about JSA and the people who train in them, you'd know that going out to drink together is virtually inseperable from the arts.  It can be difficult for those, like myself, who do not drink.

The second quote was an attempt on my part to point out that we have no vendetta against you and that it would be silly to think we do as we don't know you well enough to bother.

Finish reading the third post, including the stuff you didn't bother to bold.  I think that one explains itself.

As for the last bit, as I said earlier I was just trying to verify your stance on the issue. 

As for your opinion of my worthiness to teach, as I mentioned before, I am not an instructor, nor do I play one on the internet.  You are of course welcome to your opinion, and quite welcome not to train with me.  In addition as suggested by the moderator, you are welcome to choose the ignore feature on any poster whose opinions you no longer wish to read.  I am at a loss as to why you think any of the text you bolded has any bearing on my fitness to be an instructor.


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## pgsmith (Jun 3, 2006)

Mr. Intentions,
You seem to be a pretty angry individual. Not sure why, and don't really care either. I am also not sure why you continue to post here since the vast majority are diametrically opposed to your point of view. Perhaps you simply enjoy having people argue with you? 

What I *do* know is that I have no help, advice, or conversation to give you, so I will simply ignore you and your posts from this point forward. Play with your swords all you like, you can even label it "training" if that makes you feel better. But always bear in mind that it has absolutely no relation to what I, or most of the people on this forum, do.

Good luck in your endeavours, and try to stay safe!


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## Calm Intention (Jun 4, 2006)

Charles Mahan said:
			
		

> No I'm not being a wise guy. You've said a lot of things you later retracted. I just wanted to be sure I understood you on that point.
> 
> As to the bold type...
> 
> ...


 
Charles,

I am sorry.  Please read what I wrote to Don on the other thread.
I got angry for no reason.  I re-read what you wrote,  and I misconstrued
part of your comment(the 'care enough' part).  In my head(at the time), I interpreted it as meaning that when I stated some problems of mine, that no one gave a ________.   Now I see it as you meant it, and I am suffering a guilt trip for my stupidity.  
As I said on the other thread,  I think(i know actually), that I am projecting some personal issues into all this,  and  frankly, I am an embarrassment.
I chose 'calm intention',  and I've been anything but that.  Somewhat funny if I think about it,  but definitely not funny in retrospect.

Still, I think some things I've said were taken out of context at times, and that is part of what irritated me.
I really do have alot of respect for you guys/gals and what you do, and I am not anywhere near your league(and I don't believe I've indicated such, though one or two here have tried to say I have).

If anyone read the last comment on the other thread,  I relent, and it is simply 'play' when you have no formal instruction(though I take what I do seriously).  
In fact,  the comments over the past week,  have made me more determined to focus myself on what I do.

Charles,  you may very well be someones Sensei one day,  and I am sorry for my minus of Aikido spirit.


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## Charles Mahan (Jun 4, 2006)

Calm Intention said:
			
		

> Charles, you may very well be someones Sensei one day, and I am sorry for my minus of Aikido spirit.


 
I'm afraid that is inevitable whatever my wishes on the subject.  One day I will have to give back what I've been taking.

At any rate, I think you are using a writing style called stream of conciousness.  Basically, it amounts to posting whatever pops into your head without too much thought or content checking.  It's a great way to do creative writing, especially in the age of word processors that allow you to go back over what you wrote countless times and make adjustments. 

It is absolutely lousy for use on forums.  Forums posts are notorious for being read multiple different ways by different people.  It is very easy to think you are posting one thing, and for someone else to read something very different, as evidenced by the things you thought you read in my posts.  It's very different than talking to someone in person.  There is no body language, no intonation, nothing to go by other than the actual text and wording of the text.  It is a media that does not lend itself to stream of conciousness writing.  If you want to be taken seriously in the forums, it helps to get away from this style.  

Spend some time thinking about what you are posting.  Go back and read it again before you submit.  Remember that there is a limited window to edit it your post.  After that time frame expires, your post is set in stone.  Worse, it's preserved by search engines and forum archives.  It is quite possible that future generations will be reading your posts 20 or 30 years from.  It pays to be very circumspect in your posting.  That way you can mitigate the side affects of foot in mouth disease.

Anyway.  No one is asking you to leave the forum.  Quite the contrary.  If I were you, I'd spend some time reading archive posts, both here and over at http://www.swordforum.com and http://www.e-budo.com . Don't forget you can make use of the search feature of the forums to look for particular topics.


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## Calm Intention (Jun 4, 2006)

Charles Mahan said:
			
		

> At any rate, I think you are using a writing style called stream of conciousness. Basically, it amounts to posting whatever pops into your head without too much thought or content checking. It's a great way to do creative writing, especially in the age of word processors that allow you to go back over what you wrote countless times and make adjustments.
> 
> It is absolutely lousy for use on forums. Forums posts are notorious for being read multiple different ways by different people. *It is very easy to think you are posting one thing, and for someone else to read something very different, as evidenced by the things you thought you read in my posts.* It's very different than talking to someone in person. There is no body language, no intonation, nothing to go by other than the actual text and wording of the text.
> Spend some time thinking about what you are posting. Go back and read it again before you submit. Remember that there is a limited window to edit it your post. After that time frame expires, your post is set in stone. Worse, it's preserved by search engines and forum archives. It is quite possible that future generations will be reading your posts 20 or 30 years from. It pays to be very circumspect in your posting. That way you can mitigate the side affects of foot in mouth disease.


 
I will agree on my employing 'steam of consciousness'  type thinking/writing.
One thing though(the reason I emboldened),,   having distressed over what I thought were selective avoidance of the better parts of things I acknowledged others here had written,  I wonder if what happened on another website could be possibly happening here.

There are individuals with vast computer skills who are capable of cloning discussion boards,  accessing the PM function,  setting others ignore function so they can't see what was written- or not all that is written, editing someones comments selectively, etc.
I bring this up,  because I was a victim of this,  and I'm certain others have been also.
These 'other websites'(mostly political),  have alot of hanky panky going on,  so although that might seem quite paranoid, its a reality.


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## Ojiisan (Jun 4, 2006)

Calm Intention said:
			
		

> These 'other websites'(mostly political), have alot of hanky panky going on, so although that might seem quite paranoid, its a reality.


 
Dude, you need to get a grip on reality.


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## Lisa (Jun 4, 2006)

*Thread Locked with Admin approval.

Lisa Deneka
MT Senior Moderator*


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