# What Does Humility Have to Do with Taekwondo?



## Millennial Martial Artist (Mar 22, 2017)

I have been training in Taekwondo for a decade now, and in my time I have had the pleasure of training with a multitude of people from different backgrounds. Many of which have been seniors to me. However, I've noticed from most of them, a certain trait that was very appealing. They all seemed very humble! Now, my instructors, both brothers from Las Vegas, have recently earned their mastership. One of them wrote a mastership thesis on what humility is. In it, he speaks of arrogance, and how it can destroy a leader. He says "arrogance is the opposite of humility. In fact, arrogance is having an exaggerated sense of your own worth or ability" (Master Travis Dillow, The Value of Humility as A Leader: A Mastership Thesis by Master Travis Dillow). Now, of course most martial artists have seen those instructors who have gotten too full of themselves. They haven't learned humility, which I think is necessary for any martial artist. I see it as a kind of flow; through training comes humility, with humility, we gain honor, and through honor, we earn respect. What experience have others had with humility?


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## Tez3 (Mar 22, 2017)

I'm trying to give it up. 

Basically this is an advertisement for your school because when you click on to read the blog it also advertises the school, cheeky.


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## Millennial Martial Artist (Mar 22, 2017)

Well it was an easy way to reference the blog so I didn't have to write out the entire thing! 
As far as the topic goes though, I am curious as to what others have to say on it. Humility, I have found, is a pretty difficult topic to grasp at first. Because it is more of a trained trait rather than something that people just have.


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## Tez3 (Mar 22, 2017)

Millennial Martial Artist said:


> Because it is more of a trained trait rather than something that people just have.



I know plenty of people who have it naturally. What I detest is false humility usually signalled by people when they tell you how humble they are! I don't care much one way or another about 'humility', I like people who are confident and are easy in their skins, who stand up for themselves and others, humility doesn't come into it much as far as I can see. I think many like to think they have it but don't really know what it is.


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## Millennial Martial Artist (Mar 22, 2017)

That is a good point. I think they both kind of go hand-in-hand though. Humility is defined as a modest or low view of one's importance; namely humbleness. Perhaps it isn't trained, and it would make sense that some people are just naturally humble. I say it is trained, more as a lifetime set of experiences. A person who is raised consistently being told that they can always do better will always be aiming higher for the standards in their life. Or, they will always look at themselves as not good enough, or not where they need to be. I think that this could lead to a humble mentality.


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## Balrog (Mar 22, 2017)

Now, having said that  

I know Master Dillow.  And he is a very good example of humility.  Unless it's in connection with his school, you would never know that he is a master instructor.  He's an all around nice guy.

I like to say that humility is the brake that is put on ego.  Or as a friend of mine says in a much more earthy manner:  humility is the art of making other people believe that it is possible for the sun to shine out of their butt instead of believing that it actually shines out of your own. (Yes, I have strange friends!)


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## JowGaWolf (Mar 22, 2017)

I don't think much of humility. Normally it's often confused with respect. In my mind Jow Ga Kung Fu is the BEST and a force to take seriously.  Nothing would make me more happy than to punch those who doubt it.  This is one of my mindsets that keeps my passion for Jow Ga strong.   There's nothing humble about that.  However, I don't talk to you guys and gals like this because of my respect for myself and for anyyone who may feel passionate about their martial art.   on the outside I look sound and act "humble" but on the inside I have quite a bit of Ego and arrogance.  I'm just good at managing it and making sure it doesn't take over.


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## Tez3 (Mar 22, 2017)

Millennial Martial Artist said:


> modest or low view of one's importance



and what if one's role is important? What if you are very important for example to your family? It smacks of false modesty then to say you aren't important, if you are, you should acknowledge it, however being modest would mean knowing it but not boasting about it.





Millennial Martial Artist said:


> A person who is raised consistently being told that they can always do better will always be aiming higher for the standards in their life.



Oh no. If you consistently tell children they aren't good enough and they can do better they grow to believe it. They won't be people who aim higher they will be people with low self esteem and confidence.

I don't think being humble and being modest is what you think it is. You should always be honest with yourself and know your strengths and weaknesses, you can work on the latter and enjoy the former. Being humble is not boasting, not making yourself out to be greater than you are it is not abasing yourself to seem less than others.


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## Steve (Mar 22, 2017)

I think humility stems organically from the realization that there is a lot out there you don't know, and there are many things you cannot do.  It's also a natural extension of genuine appreciation for what other people know and can do.  You realize that nobody succeeds or fails entirely on their own.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Mar 22, 2017)

Millennial Martial Artist said:


> However, I've noticed from most of them, a certain trait that was very appealing. They all seemed very humble!



I always liked this part of the movie Manny, where Fredie Roach first meets Manny Pacquiao. [starting at 19:30]
Manny

Nazario (Pacquiao's manager): - "I hear your pretty good on the mitts".
Roach: - "I'm ok".
Nazario-"This is Manny Pacquiao, Will you work the mitts with him?"
Roach - "Sure."


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## Tez3 (Mar 22, 2017)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I always liked this part of the movie Manny, where Fredie Roach first meets Manny Pacquiao. [starting at 19:30]
> Manny
> 
> Nazario (Pacquiao's manager): - "I hear your pretty good on the mitts".
> ...



Whether that's humble or not depends _on what Manny thinks he is_, if he really thinks he's ok he's not humble just being honest. Of course he may really be ok on the mitts because his talent lies in fighting lol.


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## TrueJim (Mar 22, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> I don't think much of humility. Normally it's often confused with respect. In my mind Jow Ga Kung Fu is the BEST and a force to take seriously.  Nothing would make me more happy than to punch those who doubt it...



Not disagreeing with any of this, but I don't think this pertains to a really useful definition of _humility_. 

I don't believe humility means that a person doesn't think they're the best. I think you can believe you're the best, and yet still be very humble about it. 
I think humility can mean: "I know I'm very good, but I also recognize that in the grand scheme of things, that's not what's really important."

So I would argue that JowGaWolf may be the BEST, and may indeed be a force to be reckoned with -- and yet still be quite humble.


I believe that if a person is strong, their goal in life should be to make everybody around them feel strong. 
If you're pretty, your goal in life should be to make everybody around you feel pretty.
If you're smart, your goal in life should be to make everybody around you feel smart. 
That's why it's my goal in life to make all you guys feel like you're amazingly well endowed.


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## JowGaWolf (Mar 22, 2017)

TrueJim said:


> Not disagreeing with any of this, but I don't think this pertains to a really useful definition of _humility_.
> 
> I don't believe humility means that a person doesn't think they're the best. I think you can believe you're the best, and yet still be very humble about it.
> I think humility can mean: "I know I'm very good, but I also recognize that in the grand scheme of things, that's not what's really important."
> ...


Oh I wasn't trying to get a definition for it.  I just wanted to highlight one of the difficulties when saying humble.  I've met people who carry the act of being humble in an arrogant way.  "I'm more humble than you" type thing, and it usually spirals into something that looks like who is the most passive.

If you look at the definition of humble as the dictionaries define it, then it doesn't exactly describe something that I really want to achieve.  I rather be respectful and call it a day vs what the dictionary says.    If I'm strong then I don't want people to be weak around me.  If I think I'm smart then I want others around me to be smart, simply for the fact it means I can learn something even when I'm wrong.  They don't have to have a lot of book knowledge but they have to have a mid to high level of intelligence.  The way I want to be or the way I see myself is what I want to have around me.  To always have that inspiration there.   From experience, if I have to make someone feel strong then they really aren't learning to be strong strong.  They are using me as a crutch for their strength.  

But to each his own.  If everyone in the world looked the same then you guys would be like me and the world would be perfect.  Where the fun in that? lol


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## drop bear (Mar 22, 2017)

In. Martial arts you constantly court failure. Being humble helps you deal with that.


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## Tez3 (Mar 22, 2017)

drop bear said:


> In. Martial arts you constantly court failure. Being humble helps you deal with that.



Is it being humble or is it not having a big ego? You don't have to be humble to deal with failure, just have your feet firmly on the ground and know that you learn from everything. It's just having common sense really.


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## drop bear (Mar 22, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Is it being humble or is it not having a big ego? You don't have to be humble to deal with failure, just have your feet firmly on the ground and know that you learn from everything. It's just having common sense really.



I don't think the fear of failing in front of your peers is because of a big ego. That is a pretty common thing.


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## Buka (Mar 22, 2017)

One should always eat humble pie. And it should sometimes be served with a large glass of fresh, whole awesomeness.


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## Tez3 (Mar 22, 2017)

Buka said:


> One should always eat humble pie. And it should sometimes be served with a large glass of fresh, whole awesomeness.



Nah, cos when I'm good I'm good, but when I'm bad I'm even better!


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Mar 22, 2017)

The one time I had to be very humble was to avoid a fight.  Before starting tkd lessons, I had been doing stretching for about 6 months (focussing on university at that time).  Then when I started, I became friends with a guy from the class who had 10 years of Chinese Martial Arts, and we practised together on the weekends.  The club was a university club, and since the instructor was 3rd dan, he didn't test; a student had to go to the local school to test IF desired.  So I never tested. 

So with 4 months of practise and good flexibility, I could do a pretty good turning kick as a white belt.  

One day visiting my CMA friend at his university dorm, he introduced me to a guy by saying, "This is my friend Dan , the guy from taekwondo who I mentioned was pretty good".

The other guy said, "Taekwondo is useless.  I could take you".  Seeing where that was going I said, "yeah, I'm not very good. I just started."

And he repeated "yeah I could beat you up".  

So I said, "ah, I'm only a white belt".

Still the guy came at me and started some bad grappling.  I got away just based on strength, but then he came in again.    And I got away again, and I said, "ok enough"

When he came in again, I pushed him away and did a roundhouse to his head, stopping just beside he head.  And then he stopped seeing that I could actually kick him well if I wanted.

So for me, humility was just about not getting in a fight.


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## JR 137 (Mar 22, 2017)

Humility, being humble, etc. is an odd thing that I think is hard to really define.  But my example of it works for me...

Being humble to me means taking what you do seriously, but not taking yourself too seriously.

Maybe I'm describing a different trait altogether.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Mar 22, 2017)

"Knowledge makes humble.  Ignorance makes proud."

Yesterday I was watching a youtube video on teaching UK kids with the Chinese educational methods. The teacher used that quote (10:06) and I thought it was astute and applicable to pretty much anyone and any situation.


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## ks - learning to fly (Mar 22, 2017)

my Black Belt has definite threads of humility!   
meaning... to me - the knowledge that, no matter how
good you might think you are - there's always
someone better!


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## Earl Weiss (Mar 23, 2017)

A couple of my favorite quotes: 

"I am humble because I think I am only half as good as i really am." 

"If you are really good, you do not have to tell anyone - they already know."


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## Buka (Mar 23, 2017)

I don't think the "there's always someone better" outlook is relevant. Because it is an immutable fact. I don't think being good at Martial Arts matters much either. You train, you're supposed to be good eventually.

If you teach, like it or not, you are leading by example. If you are not humble, guess how your students will turn out? 
And you will not like them much.


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## drop bear (Mar 23, 2017)

Buka said:


> I don't think the "there's always someone better" outlook is relevant. Because it is an immutable fact. I don't think being good at Martial Arts matters much either. You train, you're supposed to be good eventually.
> 
> If you teach, like it or not, you are leading by example. If you are not humble, guess how your students will turn out?
> And you will not like them much.



If you are training properly there should be three or four in the room with you.


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## Steve (Mar 23, 2017)

drop bear said:


> If you are training properly there should be three or four in the room with you.


Agreed.  If you're the toughest hombre in your school, you need to find another school.


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## Buka (Mar 24, 2017)

Steve said:


> Agreed.  If you're the toughest hombre in your school, you need to find another school.



Yes, of course, but, if you're running the school, teaching all (most) of the classes, you need to develop one, hopefully several, of the students to be better Martial Artists/fighters/whatever than you. 

I'm not sure toughest is the right word.


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## Tez3 (Mar 24, 2017)

One of today's problems is that confident people are often dragged down as many don't like to see self confidence mostly because they don't have it. A self confident person isn't a boastful one or arrogant one but there is something about them that some find uncomfortable and they will attack them.
We need to encourage young people to be confident and to have good self esteem without becoming big headed, we need to bring them up to know their own self worth which should be considerable. This isn't the same as not being 'humble', it's not the same as going around thinking everyone is better than you  or vice versa. In martial arts we should appraise ourselves honestly, we should know which bits we find hard and should work on and we should know which bits we are good at. 
You can know your worth in the world and not be arrogant.


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## Millennial Martial Artist (Mar 24, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> and what if one's role is important? What if you are very important for example to your family? It smacks of false modesty then to say you aren't important, if you are, you should acknowledge it, however being modest would mean knowing it but not boasting about it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Perhaps I didn't make my thought on it clear enough. I firmly believe in reinforcing a positive behavior, and giving credit where credit is due. Otherwise, yes one will start to believe that they aren't good enough. However, I think there is a fine balance in there between " Yeah, I'm awesome, look at how much I've done," and "Yeah, I'm awesome, but look at how much more I can do still." I absolutely agree with you though, that being humble is not boasting about yourself. This post is humbling me constantly, as I am getting great and different viewpoints on this topic


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## Millennial Martial Artist (Mar 24, 2017)

ks - learning to fly said:


> my Black Belt has definite threads of humility!
> meaning... to me - the knowledge that, no matter how
> good you might think you are - there's always
> someone better!


Completely agree! That was the same quote my past instructor would say to all of his students. No matter what, there is always someone better than you out there. (of course, some kids would get smart and say, "well, what about the person who is the absolute best? Who is better than them?" To which he would reply that someone is still better than them at some part of their training)


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## Martial_Kumite (Mar 25, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Oh no. If you consistently tell children they aren't good enough and they can do better they grow to believe it. They won't be people who aim higher they will be people with low self esteem and confidence.
> 
> I don't think being humble and being modest is what you think it is. You should always be honest with yourself and know your strengths and weaknesses, you can work on the latter and enjoy the former. Being humble is not boasting, not making yourself out to be greater than you are it is not abusing yourself to seem less than others.



There is a thin line between building and destroying one's self. Humility can be the foundation or the dynimite. It is really up to the person themselves to decide which one it is. Yea, I know this sound like some kind of mystic bullshido. Instructors/coaches/etc can help people see which one it is, but instructors can't change ones own self-view. 

Martial art is a lens in which humility can be viewed thru. Training builds confidence in one's own ability. Humility comes after the confidence turns into arrogance. It is then the role of the Instructors/coaches/etc to help guild them through their arrogance. Then, does one understand humility vs overconfident or under confidence. 

Then again, I am simply a random human who is (possibly) rambling due to be in tired reading a Martial arts discussion board until 2 am. Oh well


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## Millennial Martial Artist (Mar 25, 2017)

Martial_Kumite said:


> There is a thin line between building and destroying one's self. Humility can be the foundation or the dynimite. It is really up to the person themselves to decide which one it is. Yea, I know this sound like some kind of mystic bullshido. Instructors/coaches/etc can help people see which one it is, but instructors can't change ones own self-view.
> 
> Martial art is a lens in which humility can be viewed thru. Training builds confidence in one's own ability. Humility comes after the confidence turns into arrogance. It is then the role of the Instructors/coaches/etc to help guild them through their arrogance. Then, does one understand humility vs overconfident or under confidence.
> 
> Then again, I am simply a random human who is (possibly) rambling due to be in tired reading a Martial arts discussion board until 2 am. Oh well



Hey, sometimes late night/early morning rambles are when our most honest and raw thoughts come out! When I first thought about humility, I related them in kind of a sequence. A person gains ability, and becomes proud. The pride becomes eradicated through being humbled, in where a person receives humility, and learns how to balance their ego with their abilities. And this leads to honor: showing that one can overcome their own biggest enemy, which is oftentimes ourselves.

This is a 1am ramble for me, I hope something in here makes sense!


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## Tez3 (Mar 25, 2017)

Martial_Kumite said:


> Humility comes after the confidence turns into arrogance. It is then the role of the Instructors/coaches/etc to help guild them through their arrogance



It doesn't follow that arrogance comes after confidence for everyone, only those inclined towards arrogance anyway. people are not alike, if we build confidence we don't build arrogance, that comes from within people besides there's plenty of arrogant instructors around lol.


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## Martial_Kumite (Mar 26, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> t doesn't follow that arrogance comes after confidence for everyone,



When I talk about arrogance, I refer to the definition "_having or revealing an exaggerated sense of one's own importance or abilities." _ I see this as going two ways. 1: the obvious "oh I am so great" kind of thinking and 2: the " I am worthless and not important" type of thinking. When I wrote that line, I believe I was referring to more of the latter type of arrogance. Instructors help guild people like that to have more self-esteem, the they can realise more of their own capabilities. This was more what I was like when I first started training.


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## Tez3 (Mar 26, 2017)

Martial_Kumite said:


> When I talk about arrogance, I refer to the definition "_having or revealing an exaggerated sense of one's own importance or abilities." _ I see this as going two ways. 1: the obvious "oh I am so great" kind of thinking and 2: the " I am worthless and not important" type of thinking. When I wrote that line, I believe I was referring to more of the latter type of arrogance. Instructors help guild people like that to have more self-esteem, the they can realise more of their own capabilities. This was more what I was like when I first started training.



Ok that has confused me, you can't be arrogant if you think you are 'worthless and not important' because that's the opposite of being arrogant. I see what you mean but it's definitely not 'arrogance'.


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## Martial_Kumite (Mar 26, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> worthless and not important' because that's the opposite of being arrogant


What about being arrogant of one potential? There is no bragging in that. It is a sense of lack of worth more than it is a show of the other side of arrogance.


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## Tez3 (Mar 26, 2017)

Martial_Kumite said:


> What about being arrogant of one potential? There is no bragging in that. It is a sense of lack of worth more than it is a show of the other side of arrogance.



Sorry, still not with you, I don't understand what you are saying I'm afraid.


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## Martial_Kumite (Mar 26, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Sorry, still not with you, I don't understand what you are saying I'm afraid.



Tis cool.


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## Tez3 (Mar 26, 2017)

Martial_Kumite said:


> Tis cool.



Ok, I'm probably just being thick.


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## Martial_Kumite (Mar 26, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Ok, I'm probably just being thick



No, It is just difficult for me to explain ideas. 

Plus, it was just an Idea based off of the definition of arrogance "_having or revealing an exaggerated sense of one's own importance or abilities." 
_
Specifically the "_exaggerated sense " _part. It just came to my mind that you can exaggerate yourself in a negative or positive way. Thus, you are arrogant about what you can really do, or the skill you have.


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## Tez3 (Mar 26, 2017)

Martial_Kumite said:


> No, It is just difficult for me to explain ideas.
> 
> Plus, it was just an Idea based off of the definition of arrogance "_having or revealing an exaggerated sense of one's own importance or abilities."
> _
> Specifically the "_exaggerated sense " _part. It just came to my mind that you can exaggerate yourself in a negative or positive way. Thus, you are arrogant about what you can really do, or the skill you have.



Ah, it wouldn't be 'arrogant', you would be 'overstating' your inability to do things. 'Arrogance' is very specific and describes 'conceit' or 'self importance', you can't use it to describe it's opposite... 'timidity' or 'meekness'. Overstating your inabilities is 'false modesty'.

I am good at English and words, I can write you a book if you'd like but dear me never ask me to do arithmetic or heaven forbid maths, absolutely terrible, can't even add without a calculator, I have number 'blindness' so forgive me if I correct your English, I'm not being nasty just doing the bit I can do!


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 26, 2017)

Buka said:


> Yes, of course, but, if you're running the school, teaching all (most) of the classes, you need to develop one, hopefully several, of the students to be better Martial Artists/fighters/whatever than you.
> 
> I'm not sure toughest is the right word.


Agreed. I'm always the best in my classes right now. I'd love for that to not be the case in 10 years.


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## Martial_Kumite (Mar 26, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Ah, it wouldn't be 'arrogant', you would be 'overstating' your inability to do things. 'Arrogance' is very specific and describes 'conceit' or 'self importance', you can't use it to describe it's opposite... 'timidity' or 'meekness'. Overstating your inabilities is 'false modesty'.
> 
> I am good at English and words, I can write you a book if you'd like but dear me never ask me to do arithmetic or heaven forbid maths, absolutely terrible, can't even add without a calculator, I have number 'blindness' so forgive me if I correct your English, I'm not being nasty just doing the bit I can do!


Np. To be honest, it is a little hard to find the right words when you are falling asleep as your typing. I woke up a few hours later, re-read the discussion and kind of confused myself before remembering what I was trying to say.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 26, 2017)

Martial_Kumite said:


> Np. To be honest, it is a little hard to find the right words when you are falling asleep as your typing. I woke up a few hours later, re-read the discussion and kind of confused myself before remembering what I was trying to say.


I can understand that. I'm not saying I've ever actually done that - not me, no way! - but I can understand.


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## Tez3 (Mar 26, 2017)

Martial_Kumite said:


> Np. To be honest, it is a little hard to find the right words when you are falling asleep as your typing. I woke up a few hours later, re-read the discussion and kind of confused myself before remembering what I was trying to say.



Oh bless you! At least you have an excuse, I've got to that age where I go into a room and promptly forget what I came in for!


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## Martial_Kumite (Mar 26, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Oh bless you! At least you have an excuse, I've got to that age where I go into a room and promptly forget what I came in for!


Same, then I would remember, go back in,and then lose it again.


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## Martial_Kumite (Mar 26, 2017)

Millennial Martial Artist said:


> What experience have others had with humility?



Anyway, to try to get this back on topic, I want to give an experience one of my instructors had. She was a 2nd or 3rd degree at the time ( I can not remember precisely) and was at a dan testing with a retreat at the end for those who were interested. Well, my instructor was there and watched the testing. After the tests, a new dan came up to her and told her to do push-ups, because he thought he was the higher rank. Well, once she informed him of her rank, he got chewed out a little bit. Bet it humbled that guy a little bit, dot you think.


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## TrueJim (Mar 26, 2017)

Martial_Kumite said:


> ...After the tests, a new dan came up to her and told her to do push-ups, because he thought he was the higher rank...



I don't think I understand this story. The new dan thought that if he sees anybody's who's lower rank, he can randomly give that person commands? Like...will they paint his living room if he tells them? Cuz that would be handy!


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## Martial_Kumite (Mar 26, 2017)

TrueJim said:


> I don't think I understand this story. The new dan thought that if he sees anybody's who's lower rank, he can randomly give that person commands? Like...will they paint his living room if he tells them? Cuz that would be handy!



I was paraphrasing for time sake. Bacicly, The guy let his new rank get to his head and began thinking he was top dog and started mouthing off. Then karma came and bit him on the a--. And, He was just a jerk. 

Also, My instructor is quite short. It made her look like she was around a brown or new red belt. Looks were quite deceiving in this case.


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## Steve (Mar 27, 2017)

The distinction between confidence and arrogance is, I think, very subjective.    I think when you agree with someone or like someone, they are confident.  When you disagree with someone or dislike them, confidence is arrogant.


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## TrueJim (Mar 27, 2017)

Martial_Kumite said:


> I was paraphrasing for time sake...



That's a pity, because my living room really does need a new coat of paint, and I know some bo-dans that are good with a roller.


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## TKDFromDMV_Student (Mar 28, 2017)

Humility is strength under control, and Tae Kwon Do has been one of the things that tested my humility. It taught me to control my power, and be light on my feet. At the same time, it encouraged me to submit to my masters and elders, and help other students who need help. Humility also taught me not to think of myself more highly than I really am, because life for everyone here on this earth is a learning process, and it's not about striving to be all that, it's all about being faithful with what you have and using that to work hard. That's all I can describe for now.


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## Tez3 (Mar 28, 2017)

TKDFromDMV_Student said:


> At the same time, it encouraged me to submit to my masters and elders,



That has a ring about it that makes me bristle but before I do perhaps you could tell us what you mean by 'submit'. I don't believe anyone should submit to any other. If you mean 'listen' or 'be advised by' then I'd agree but 'submit' has too many overtones to be comfortable.


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## TrueJim (Mar 28, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> ...I don't believe anyone should submit to any other. If you mean 'listen' or 'be advised by' then I'd agree but 'submit' has too many overtones to be comfortable.



When of the things I've learned in the corporate world (and many people often reiterate this, so it's not like this is my own observation) -- when you find somebody who thinks very differently from you, comes to completely different conclusions than you come to, and yet they are very smart -- keep those people close, and listen to them a lot. When you're in a fight, you want somebody back-to-back with you, not facing in the same direction as you.

Our kwanjangnim has a lot of ideas that just sound crazy to me, and yet he's run an extremely successful dojang for quite a long time -- so I assume he knows what he's doing. In that sense, I do find myself "submitting" a lot -- going full-steam along with ideas that I don't necessarily agree with. In the process though, I've learned a lot.

Back to the humility topic: I know that I'm smarter, wiser, stronger, faster and (especially) sexier than literally everybody on the planet, especially you guys.  To me, humility is about knowing that none of those things matters one whit. The fact that a person is lucky enough to have any or all of these strengths means nothing -- it's only what you choose to do with your strengths that has any meaning. "The meaning of life? Life doesn't have a meaning. We give life its meaning through our actions."


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## Tez3 (Mar 28, 2017)

TrueJim said:


> Our kwanjangnim has a lot of ideas that just sound crazy to me, and yet he's run an extremely successful dojang for quite a long time -- so I assume he knows what he's doing. In that sense, I do find myself "submitting" a lot -- going full-steam along with ideas that I don't necessarily agree with. In the process though, I've learned a lot.



That's not submitting as such though, that's going along with the ideas of someone you trust. submitting would be going along with ideas regardless of your own moral code, your beliefs and your own common sense. Submitting to someone means giving them power over you, is that wise?

Definition of submit from Cambridge Dictionary "*to **allow** another **person** or **group** to have **power** or **authority** over you, or to **accept** something **unwillingly**: "*


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## TKDFromDMV_Student (Mar 28, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Submitting to someone means giving them power over you, is that wise?
> 
> Definition of submit from Cambridge Dictionary "*to **allow** another **person** or **group** to have **power** or **authority** over you, or to **accept** something **unwillingly**: "*



It's not the submission that I'm talking about. I'm referring to student-to-teacher submission.


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## Tez3 (Mar 28, 2017)

TKDFromDMV_Student said:


> It's not the submission that I'm talking about. I'm referring to student-to-teacher submission.



How is that different, it's still submission. It's why in MMA you win by 'submission' when your opponent taps out because they have no choice because of the position you have put them into.
Teachers should not ask their students to submit to them, they can submit essays but not their person.


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## Martial_Kumite (Mar 28, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> have no choice because of the position you have put them into.


Well..... They still have a choice. They can choose to tap out, or be snap, crackle, and/or popped


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## Tez3 (Mar 29, 2017)

Martial_Kumite said:


> Well..... They still have a choice. They can choose to tap out, or be snap, crackle, and/or popped



True but it's Hobson's choice.


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## Earl Weiss (Mar 30, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> That's not submitting as such though, that's going along with the ideas of someone you trust. submitting would be going along with ideas regardless of your own moral code, your beliefs and your own common sense. Submitting to someone means giving them power over you, is that wise?
> 
> Definition of submit from Cambridge Dictionary "*to **allow** another **person** or **group** to have **power** or **authority** over you, or to **accept** something **unwillingly**: "*




Other dictionary definition without the unwilling acceptance: 


verb (used with object), submitted, submitting.
1.
to give over or yield to the power or authority of another (often usedreflexively).
2.
to subject to some kind of treatment or influence.
3.
to present for the approval, consideration, or decision of another orothers:
to submit a plan; to submit an application.
4.
to state or urge with deference; suggest or propose (usually followedby a clause):
I submit that full proof should be required.
verb (used without object), submitted, submitting.
5.
to yield oneself to the power or authority of another:
to submit to a conqueror.
6.
to allow oneself to be subjected to some kind of treatment:
to submit to chemotherapy.
7.
to defer to another's judgment, opinion, decision, etc.:
I submit to your superior judgment.

Point being that you take on faith that someone knows more than you and even though you do not know or understand their rationale or think what they are doing is wise  or correct you may choose to accept it with the thought that the wisdom may be revealed at some future date.   (Been there).


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## Tez3 (Mar 30, 2017)

In everyday English (certainly British) usage no one 'submits' to chemo, one has it or is treated with it. No one would think of using the word in that sense. The same with 'submitting' to a superior judgement, the expression is 'I bow to your superior judgement' there is no submission involved, it's an acknowledgement albeit usually a sarcastic one.
You can certainly take on faith that someone knows more than you etc but that's still not submitting to them as understood by users of English these days. One does exactly what you have said, one accepts on faith.
When the word submit is used in martial arts there's a couple of reasons for it, obviously in the sense of 'tapping out', you can submit essays for gradings but the sense of submitting to an instructor has overtones that should be worrying, you can do as they advise ( on the basis they have more experience) you can bow to show respect but should you be submitting in such a way that you are giving emotion and physical power over you? This has cult like overtones, those martial arts places where they demand obedience and reverence, where you aren't allow to train anywhere else, mustn't ask questions etc. There they expect you to submit rather than follow their advice.


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## Balrog (Mar 30, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> Humility, being humble, etc. is an odd thing that I think is hard to really define.  But my example of it works for me...
> 
> Being humble to me means taking what you do seriously, but not taking yourself too seriously.
> 
> Maybe I'm describing a different trait altogether.


Nope.  Sounds pretty accurate to me.


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## Earl Weiss (Mar 31, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> In everyday English (certainly British) .......................................



Therein lies the puzzle. Perhaps you speak "English" and I speak "American"   England and America. 2 great countries separated by a common language


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 31, 2017)

Martial_Kumite said:


> Same, then I would remember, go back in,and then lose it again.


I was at that age 20 years ago. I shudder to think what I'll be like at 60+.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 31, 2017)

Steve said:


> The distinction between confidence and arrogance is, I think, very subjective.    I think when you agree with someone or like someone, they are confident.  When you disagree with someone or dislike them, confidence is arrogant.


There's something to that, but I don't agree entirely. It certainly is subjective, but more on tolerance than on how much I like them. If you are more tolerant than I am, you'll be slower to perceive someone as arrogant.

There is a grey area between these, but if someone is mouthing off and telling people they aren't as good (and I'm talking about outside a lesson where an instructor might say, "Don't do that, you don't have the skill for it yet."), that's arrogant, whether they can back it up or not, and whether I like them or not. Mind you, that mouthing off is likely to cause me to like them less. I've rarely seen arrogance on the mats, though I do occasionally. I remember a junior black belt (meaning he was newer to the rank than me by some years) not wanting to participate in some drills I was putting the class through, because he didn't think he needed them. That was someone I really actually liked - a long-time training partner - but it was pretty arrogant.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 31, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> How is that different, it's still submission. It's why in MMA you win by 'submission' when your opponent taps out because they have no choice because of the position you have put them into.
> Teachers should not ask their students to submit to them, they can submit essays but not their person.


I think students submitting to a teacher can be fine, if done by choice because of respect, and should not be demanded. So, if I go to train under someone, once they've earned my respect, I set aside my control and give it to them. It's an act of trust. I can still take it back at any point if I see the need, but so long as I trust them, I won't have any need to take back that control.

I agree that demanding submission from a student is unnecessary, though there may be students who will develop better traits if they submit earlier, and may do so only if it is demanded. I don't have the patience for that, as an instructor, so if one of those showed up at my school, they wouldn't last.

I think maybe this is part of the difference between some of the TMA practices and the modern practices. And maybe that's why some people in each camp can't really see the value in the other approach.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 31, 2017)

TrueJim said:


> Back to the humility topic: I know that I'm smarter, wiser, stronger, faster and (especially) sexier than literally everybody on the planet, especially you guys.  To me, humility is about knowing that none of those things matters one whit. The fact that a person is lucky enough to have any or all of these strengths means nothing -- it's only what you choose to do with your strengths that has any meaning. "The meaning of life? Life doesn't have a meaning. We give life its meaning through our actions."


I like this explanation, Jim. That's a good synopsis of humility. False humility would be to deny those strengths, or to say they don't play a role, or to dismiss their impact. Humility is acknowledging those strengths, the role they play, their level of impact, and knowing that that still doesn't make you "better" than someone else at your core. Your actions define you.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 31, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> That's not submitting as such though, that's going along with the ideas of someone you trust. submitting would be going along with ideas regardless of your own moral code, your beliefs and your own common sense. Submitting to someone means giving them power over you, is that wise?
> 
> Definition of submit from Cambridge Dictionary "*to **allow** another **person** or **group** to have **power** or **authority** over you, or to **accept** something **unwillingly**: "*


I think the first part of that is the part I would use when defining "submit" in this context. When I was in an association, I allowed them to have authority over me. Same with my instructor. The key point is that I allowed it, it was a choice. There have been a few times I accepted things unwillingly, because the alternative was undesirable, but that's not the sense of "submission" I think we're talking about here.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 31, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> In everyday English (certainly British) usage no one 'submits' to chemo, one has it or is treated with it. No one would think of using the word in that sense. The same with 'submitting' to a superior judgement, the expression is 'I bow to your superior judgement' there is no submission involved, it's an acknowledgement albeit usually a sarcastic one.
> You can certainly take on faith that someone knows more than you etc but that's still not submitting to them as understood by users of English these days. One does exactly what you have said, one accepts on faith.
> When the word submit is used in martial arts there's a couple of reasons for it, obviously in the sense of 'tapping out', you can submit essays for gradings but the sense of submitting to an instructor has overtones that should be worrying, you can do as they advise ( on the basis they have more experience) you can bow to show respect but should you be submitting in such a way that you are giving emotion and physical power over you? This has cult like overtones, those martial arts places where they demand obedience and reverence, where you aren't allow to train anywhere else, mustn't ask questions etc. There they expect you to submit rather than follow their advice.


It wouldn't be unusual (though perhaps a bit archaic) to hear someone say (in American English), "I submit to your greater experience/knowledge in that." I'm not sure it's a proper dictionary usage, but it's within the common usage (so will eventually probably end up in the OAE dictionary).


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## Tez3 (Mar 31, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> It wouldn't be unusual (though perhaps a bit archaic) to hear someone say (in American English), "I submit to your greater experience/knowledge in that." I'm not sure it's a proper dictionary usage, but it's within the common usage (so will eventually probably end up in the OAE dictionary).



You wouldn't hear that in the UK because people here are somewhat not into submitting to others, hence Brexit ( followed by doom and destruction )


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Apr 10, 2017)

I started boxing a couple weeks back and figured that in the drills that I would try to copy someone half-decent. The woman next to me had the boxing shoes, so I asked, "are you any good?" , to which she replied "no I'm not too good".  So I wasn't going to copy her.

Then in the first drill (step-jab, step-cross, slip, cross, back, cross) she seemed to know what she was doing.  The instructor held the mitts for her, and he said "perfect!"

I told the instructor, "She said she wasn't good!".

And the instructor chuckled and said, "she's trained with my father for years!"

Humility!


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## drop bear (Apr 12, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> When the word submit is used in martial arts there's a couple of reasons for it, obviously in the sense of 'tapping out



This is the context. Some people tap and loose a part of themselves. Humility is learning to submit without loosing a part of yourself.

Take that idea to an instructor that wants you to do something silly.  And you can either be humble or not.

The idea is it is a strength of character not a weakness. loosing without being diminished.


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## Tez3 (Apr 12, 2017)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I started boxing a couple weeks back and figured that in the drills that I would try to copy someone half-decent. The woman next to me had the boxing shoes, so I asked, "are you any good?" , to which she replied "no I'm not too good".  So I wasn't going to copy her.
> 
> Then in the first drill (step-jab, step-cross, slip, cross, back, cross) she seemed to know what she was doing.  The instructor held the mitts for her, and he said "perfect!"
> 
> ...



Ah but one should always tell people you aren't as good as you just in case.......


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## TrueJim (Apr 13, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Ah but one should always tell people you aren't as good as you just in case.......



"Poker? I've heard of it. Hey did you know some people play this for money?"


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