# Karate Vs Boxing



## SammyB57

I've read before about matches between karate masters and boxers back in the old days (pre-1960). Does anyone have information on these matches, or on more modern type challenge matches?

Also, how has karate evolved since pre-1960?


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## Autocrat

I recal my father talking about the Karate champion and Muhamed Ali, ( I think it was him) going for the full 12 rounds.... karate guy got hit once or twice... the boxer got hit lots yet could take it!

Don't think theres been another... unless you include the MMA things on TV... they have boxers, K-Boxers, Tkd etc... usual naff fights... yet sometime you get interesting ones!


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## Danjo

The famous one was between Choki Motobu and Jan Kentel in reported in King magazine in 1925. motobu knocked the boxer out in the second round. Two things to consider here: 1) the Karate of Motobu was a good deal different than most modern Karate. It was designed for streetfighting and tested in the "red light districts" of Okinawa. 2) The boxing of that time looked substatially different than what we see on TV these days. They held their hands differently and moved differently than they do today. What the modern results would be would be interesting to see.


BTW, the Ali fight was with a Jiu Jitsu guy, not Karate. The proposed fight between Ali and Jim Kelly never came off.


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## Karazenpo

Autocrat said:
			
		

> I recal my father talking about the Karate champion and Muhamed Ali, ( I think it was him) going for the full 12 rounds.... karate guy got hit once or twice... the boxer got hit lots yet could take it!
> 
> Don't think theres been another... unless you include the MMA things on TV... they have boxers, K-Boxers, Tkd etc... usual naff fights... yet sometime you get interesting ones!




This was the martial artist Ali fought:

Antonio Inoki
(b. 1943)

  Real Name:  Kanji Inoki 
There are several different stories about the origin of his ring name "Antonio": 
Named by Rikidozan after the legendary Antonio Rocca. 
Given a popular first name in Brazil in order to be pushed as a nisei from Brazil. 
Named after Antonius. 

Nickname: Moeru Toukon (Fighting Spirit That Burns) 
Birth: Feburary 20th, 1943 in Yokohama, Japan 
Debut: loses to Kintaro Ohki on September 30th, 1960 in Tokyo 
Organizations: JWA (60 - 66) - 
Tokyo Pro (66 - 67) - 
JWA (67 - 71)
New Japan (72 - 98) 
Retirement: defeats Don Frye on April 4th, 1998 in Tokyo 
Titles:  NWA Texas Heavyweight 
NWA World Tag Team (Texas) 
NWA World Tag Team (Tennessee) 
All Asia Tag Team [4] 
NWA International Tag Team [4] 
NWA United National Heavyweight 
"Real" World Heavyweight 
NWF (World) Heavyweight [4] 
NWA North American Tag Team [2] 
WWF World Martial Arts Heavyweight [2] 
WWF Heavyweight 
UWA World Heavyweight 
IWGP Heavyweight 

Pictures:  Giant Baba & Antonio Inoki -True Legends of Puroresu 
with Lou Thesz in 1975 (Courtesy of the Canvas Cavity with Dr. Mike Lano) 
Antonio Inoki vs. Muhammad Ali 
Seiji Sakaguchi, Akira Maeda, Anotnio Inoki, and Yoshiaki Fujiwara at the New Japan Pro-Wrestling 20th Anniversary Party 
North Korean Postal Stamps of Antonio Inoki and Rikidozan (Courtesy of the Puroresu Village) 

Links:  Official Site 
Antonio Inoki Home Page - TDC Wrestling Club 
"My Unforgettable Experiences" by Dory Funk Jr. (in Japanese) 
W.W.E. Hall of Fame: Andre the Giant 

Inducted to W.C.W. Hall of Fame on 1995 


Regardless what the younger generation of puroresu fans say, without Antonio Inoki, the post-Rikidozan puroresu would never been accepted as a "sport" by general public in Japan. Even today, there are many martial art fighters who started training after being inspired by Antonio Inoki's matches.   

With "King of Sports" and "civil rights for puroresu" as his mottos, Inoki started New Japan Pro-Wrestling in 1972. Since then, he had put his effort to prove that the pro-wrestling is the strongest sport and to raise the status of the sport in the general public in Japan. It's just hard to describe his never ending dreams in right words, especially when his past achievements include things like :

having a number of mixed matches against the great fighters of other sports including Willem Ruska (judo gold medalist in the Olympic games in Munich), Muhammad Ali (world boxing champion), Chuck Wepner (whose career Rocky is said to be based on), and Willie Williams (world karate champion), 
promoting the first/rare pro-wrestling cards in Taiwan, China, and Soviet Union, 
being the first pro-wrestler in the world to be elected as a congressman of a country, 
having meetings with the politicians whom the officials from western/democratic nations have rarely met, such as the Hussein family of Iraq and Fidel Castro of Cuba, and 
promoting the first two pro-wrestling cards in North Korea with the world record crowd of approximately 150,000 and 190,000. 
After his retirement in 1998, Inoki has continued to produce interpromotional matches with MMA organizations such as K-1 and PRIDE to keep the tradition of fighting spirit that New Japan Pro-Wrestling seems to have lost.


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## JAMJTX

I was told a story of a time when Jhoon Rhee, the Tae Kwon Do teacher knocked Muhammad Ali out.
It was at Rhee's school in D.C.


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## Andrew Green

Danjo said:
			
		

> The famous one was between Choki Motobu and Jan Kentel in reported in King magazine in 1925. motobu knocked the boxer out in the second round. Two things to consider here


 And one more, they thought he studied Judo and he wasn't allowed to punch (hence the open hand strike) so there is also a good chance the boxer wasn't expecting him to hit back at all, just try and throw him.


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## Andrew Green

JAMJTX said:
			
		

> I was told a story of a time when Jhoon Rhee, the Tae Kwon Do teacher knocked Muhammad Ali out.
> It was at Rhee's school in D.C.


 Unfortunately stories are just that, stories.  Without some facts to back them up they don't carry much weight.

 Granted most stories have some basis in truth, but they are most often skewed.


 Boxing and Karate are governed by different rules.  Who would win would likely depend as much on rules as anything else.  Who would win, a basketball player or a football player?  Well are they playing Basketball?  Football?  or maybe Hockey in which case it will likely be a mess...


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## Autocrat

Good answer there!

I believe the rules for the ali fight was simply contact, without gouges, breaks etc.... standard stuff to be safe.

Much like moden fights today.

Just glad no one has posted anything stupid like... "just take his legs out".... ever fought a boxer?  IT HURTS!  They can take a hell of a beating, really dish it out, and are willing to get up and do it all again!

Golden rule... never fight a boxer, dancer or fencer.... all are fast, fit and hurt like hell when they hit you!


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## hardheadjarhead

JAMJTX said:
			
		

> I was told a story of a time when Jhoon Rhee, the Tae Kwon Do teacher knocked Muhammad Ali out.
> It was at Rhee's school in D.C.




I wouldn't bet your life on it...much less your paycheck.

Ali was such a controversial figure that had that happened, we would have heard about it.  His detractors would have been all over that. 

Besides, if Kenny Norton, Joe Frazier, Sonny Liston and George Foreman couldn't do it...I seriously doubt a short and sleight of build Korean is going to do it.  Ali weighed 217 in fighting trim and could take an incredible punch (and indeed, took many and survived).

I'm confident it didn't happen.


Regards,


Steve


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## Danjo

hardheadjarhead said:
			
		

> I wouldn't bet your life on it...much less your paycheck.
> 
> Ali was such a controversial figure that had that happened, we would have heard about it. His detractors would have been all over that.
> 
> Besides, if Kenny Norton, Joe Frazier, Sonny Liston and George Foreman couldn't do it...I seriously doubt a short and sleight of build Korean is going to do it. Ali weighed 217 in fighting trim and could take an incredible punch (and indeed, took many and survived).
> 
> I'm confident it didn't happen.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> 
> Steve


No it did not happen. But they are friends and did spar with each other.


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## DRMiller

Classical fighthing arts magazine had an article about this subject in it's last issue. They were matches in the 20's held in Hawaii if my memory serves me correctly.


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## madfrank

There is no credible verified account of a boxer being bested by a martial artist but there are lots of fabrifications and myths which says a lot IMNSHO

Madfrank


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## DRMiller

Check it out for yourself, Classical Fighting Arts Issue #5, Page 25 Ju Jitsu vs Wrestling and Boxing. References to documented Newspaper articles, pictures of handbills and posters of the events and a reference to Choki Motobu's defeat of George (or Jan) Kentel and European boxer in 1921.


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## Andrew Green

madfrank said:
			
		

> There is no credible verified account of a boxer being bested by a martial artist


 Sure there are, go rent UFC 1.

 or does BJJ not count as Martial Arts?

 A few boxers entered early UFC's, and the ones that only knew boxing didn't do so well....

 On average Boxers are in better shape, better conditioned and can take more punishment then the point fighting martial artists with the foam gloves and slippers.  No one will doubt that.

 But that is one rather broad statement, not many boxers would last long in a MMA ring against a competitive MMA fighter, they don't have ther skills.

 Same reason all those top NHL Players can't just play basketball or football durring the lockout, completely different games.

 In a point fighting match boxers won't do well...

 PS - Does anyone else find it funny that Ali is the only one wearing gloves / boots? I think that says something right there


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## The Kai

I think it more a publicity shot than anything else, btw ali and rhee


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## thepanjr

i know this article that had a guy beat up a boxer with a open handed move


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## bignick

thepanjr said:
			
		

> i know this article that had a guy beat up a boxer with a open handed move


 Where was the article?


 anyway...wasn't there a hyped up televised match during the 60's between a karate point fighter and a boxer. The karateka scored some good shots but then pretty much got whumped because he was out of shape. Well, at least not in the same fighting shape as the boxer. Andrew was right, a boxer, on average is gonna be in a lot better shape than your average striking artist (myself included).


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## pnoy_kickfighter

Autocrat said:
			
		

> Good answer there!
> 
> I believe the rules for the ali fight was simply contact, without gouges, breaks etc.... standard stuff to be safe.
> 
> Much like moden fights today.
> 
> Just glad no one has posted anything stupid like... "just take his legs out".... ever fought a boxer? IT HURTS! They can take a hell of a beating, really dish it out, and are willing to get up and do it all again!
> 
> Golden rule... never fight a boxer, dancer or fencer.... all are fast, fit and hurt like hell when they hit you!


 No offense but if I had to fight one I simply woulndt back out


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## Blindside

madfrank said:
			
		

> There is no credible verified account of a boxer being bested by a martial artist but there are lots of fabrifications and myths which says a lot IMNSHO
> 
> Madfrank



How about Gene Lebell and Milo Savage?


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## eyebeams

hardheadjarhead said:
			
		

> I wouldn't bet your life on it...much less your paycheck.
> 
> Ali was such a controversial figure that had that happened, we would have heard about it. His detractors would have been all over that.
> 
> Besides, if Kenny Norton, Joe Frazier, Sonny Liston and George Foreman couldn't do it...I seriously doubt a short and sleight of build Korean is going to do it. Ali weighed 217 in fighting trim and could take an incredible punch (and indeed, took many and survived).
> 
> I'm confident it didn't happen.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> 
> Steve


 I don't buy it either, but:

 1) Ali actually trained with Rhee.

 2) Jhoon Rhee was not just a "slightly built Korean." The last time I read anything about him in '95 or so, he kept to a regimen that included 1000 pushups, and as a senior citizen, was ripped. I would have no desire to be on the other end of him in his prime.


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## Andrew Green

Rhee: http://www.passmoreselfdefense.com/HallOfFame/pics/jhoonrhee.jpg

 Ali: http://posters.westbalkanonline.com/speedlist/SP0052 ALI Training.jpg

 Side by side: http://masterrhee.com/images/photos/M.Rhee receives an Ali Sports Award.jpg

 In comparrison with Ali, slightly built is about right...


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## The Kai

I tell you if you think that Rhee could knock out Ali I have a bridge to sell you


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## eyebeams

The Kai said:
			
		

> I tell you if you think that Rhee could knock out Ali I have a bridge to sell you


 In the ring? No, of course it's not possible, because Ali was a better fighter. Was Rhee strong enough to knock Ali's block off? Yeah, he was. It would take some strange circumstances for Ali to ever allow that to happen.

 Rhee's  a small guy, but not "slight," really. His physical strength is well-documented.

 Then again. given his politics, I'd be less afraid about him punching me than lobbying for a bombing campaign to get at my sweet, sweet oil.


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## The Kai

no respect to Rhee but Ali was the Heavyweight Champion when the title meant something.  He fought Strong, tough fighters (frazier, Foreman, Liston).  The Third fight with Frazier was as much mental, as well as physical strenght


Rhee invented musical forms, and a way to reduce contact at semi contact events

Do the Math


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## Martin h

There was a fight in the 70ies between a boxer and a karate guy (no idea what the names were). rules was that each could do what their rules allowed normaly. The karate guy immediately fell down on his knees and hand and stayed there, kicking circular kicks from the ground. The boxer could not retaliate -he could not punch a "downed" opponent. It was viewed as cowardly and strange, and was a bit of a scandal.
Moral of the story is: they are different and its hard to get a fair fight that wont give the edge to one side.

As for ufc1. no disrespect to the gracies, but they didnt exactly get world champion fighters in there to fight them. They didnt do works, but they stacked the decks as much as they possibly could. And Gordeau (kyokushin, not savate as many belive -although he had entered savate tournaments and won them) did ok until he faced Gracie.

As for boxers generaly being in better shape. True, but then karate and martial arts has always welcomed of those less physicaly fit in a way you seldom see in boxing. A pro karate fighter needs to be just as fit as a pro boxer. Not that there are as many pro karate guys as there are pro boxers (exept for a few K1 stars like Feitosa and Filho  I know of no pro karate competitors) so amature level would be a better comparison.
Also the fighters develope their physique according to the needs of the sport. Point karate has different needs than knockdown karate, and different still from boxing. Who is in better shape: a elite boxer or a elite marathon runner? In better shape for what?


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## searcher

Martin h said:
			
		

> There was a fight in the 70ies between a boxer and a karate guy (no idea what the names were). rules was that each could do what their rules allowed normaly. The karate guy immediately fell down on his knees and hand and stayed there, kicking circular kicks from the ground. The boxer could not retaliate -he could not punch a "downed" opponent. It was viewed as cowardly and strange, and was a bit of a scandal.
> Moral of the story is: they are different and its hard to get a fair fight that wont give the edge to one side.
> 
> As for ufc1. no disrespect to the gracies, but they didnt exactly get world champion fighters in there to fight them. They didnt do works, but they stacked the decks as much as they possibly could. And Gordeau (kyokushin, not savate as many belive -although he had entered savate tournaments and won them) did ok until he faced Gracie.
> 
> As for boxers generaly being in better shape. True, but then karate and martial arts has always welcomed of those less physicaly fit in a way you seldom see in boxing. A pro karate fighter needs to be just as fit as a pro boxer. Not that there are as many pro karate guys as there are pro boxers (exept for a few K1 stars like Feitosa and Filho I know of no pro karate competitors) so amature level would be a better comparison.
> Also the fighters develope their physique according to the needs of the sport. Point karate has different needs than knockdown karate, and different still from boxing. Who is in better shape: a elite boxer or a elite marathon runner? In better shape for what?


You do make a very good point about the Gracies not getting world champions to face them, but they were also in the beginning stages and nobody really understood what was going on.    It does help to show that you are the beast if you decide who you are going to prove it on.


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## Danjo

Martin h said:
			
		

> There was a fight in the 70ies between a boxer and a karate guy (no idea what the names were). rules was that each could do what their rules allowed normaly. The karate guy immediately fell down on his knees and hand and stayed there, kicking circular kicks from the ground. The boxer could not retaliate -he could not punch a "downed" opponent. It was viewed as cowardly and strange, and was a bit of a scandal.
> Moral of the story is: they are different and its hard to get a fair fight that wont give the edge to one side.
> 
> As for ufc1. no disrespect to the gracies, but they didnt exactly get world champion fighters in there to fight them. They didnt do works, but they stacked the decks as much as they possibly could. And Gordeau (kyokushin, not savate as many belive -although he had entered savate tournaments and won them) did ok until he faced Gracie.
> 
> As for boxers generaly being in better shape. True, but then karate and martial arts has always welcomed of those less physicaly fit in a way you seldom see in boxing. A pro karate fighter needs to be just as fit as a pro boxer. Not that there are as many pro karate guys as there are pro boxers (exept for a few K1 stars like Feitosa and Filho I know of no pro karate competitors) so amature level would be a better comparison.
> Also the fighters develope their physique according to the needs of the sport. Point karate has different needs than knockdown karate, and different still from boxing. Who is in better shape: a elite boxer or a elite marathon runner? In better shape for what?


I agree. Those using straight BJJ after the first few UFC contests got beat pretty regularly. Once solid strikers figured out how to sprawl and escape the BJJ crowd had to adapt their game by picking up striking skills. Looking at the likes of Chuck Liddel and how he tends to whip grapplers pretty soundly, it takes away from the invulnerability that BJJ used to claim. Helluva good martial art though. I took Gracie JJ for 6 months and it was awesome. Taught me a lot about grappling.


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## eyebeams

The Kai said:
			
		

> no respect to Rhee but Ali was the Heavyweight Champion when the title meant something. He fought Strong, tough fighters (frazier, Foreman, Liston). The Third fight with Frazier was as much mental, as well as physical strenght
> 
> 
> Rhee invented musical forms, and a way to reduce contact at semi contact events
> 
> Do the Math


 Rhee trained Ali, and Ali credited Rhee for it. I don't like the direction he took Taekwondo or martial arts in general, but Rhee himself came from the old school -- just like plenty of good martial artists who promoted didgy practices.


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## The Kai

Rhee trained Ali in what??  How to Box?

The fact that Rhee did'nt even met Ali, till after Ali changed his name shows that their meeting was a photo op.  not a training sesson


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## Danjo

eyebeams said:
			
		

> Rhee trained Ali, and Ali credited Rhee for it.


 Where did Ali credit Rhee for training him?


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## eyebeams

Danjo said:
			
		

> Where did Ali credit Rhee for training him?


 Pic of them training together:

http://masterrhee.com/images/photos/M.Rhee & Ali Sparring.jpg

 Ali Quote from Rhee's site.

 "Mr. Rhee taught me Tae Kwon Do Accu-Punch; it is so fast, you can hardly see it." 

 Now, to get back to what I meant in the first place:

 1) No, I don't think Rhee could knock Ali out in the ring.

 2) But Despite his role in padded point karate and such, Rhee was and is a legitimate martial artist, with significant physical strength.

 3) Rhee trained Ali. From: *http://tinyurl.com/7d33q*

 " Master *Rhee* taught the legendary Bruce Lee his kicking techniques, and 
  Bruce Lee taught him how to punch. Master *Rhee* then taught Muhammad *Ali* 
  what *Ali* later called his powerful ``Accu-punch.'' *Ali* used it in 1976 
  to knock out Bruce Denn in Munich and also in the Joe Frazier 
  heavyweight title bout."


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## rupton

The only one I'm aware of is the Ali and Inoki fight which has already been mentioned.  There is also a video link to this fight on subfighter.com.  Interestingly enough Inoki got in a couple of good digs and the fight was considered a draw.  Here is another link to the event:

http://www.hotboxingnews.com/ticketsinoki.htm


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## The Kai

eyebeams said:
			
		

> Pic of them training together:
> 
> http://masterrhee.com/images/photos/M.Rhee%20&%20Ali%20Sparring.jpg
> 
> Ali Quote from Rhee's site.
> 
> "Mr. Rhee taught me Tae Kwon Do Accu-Punch; it is so fast, you can hardly see it."
> 
> Now, to get back to what I meant in the first place:
> 
> 1) No, I don't think Rhee could knock Ali out in the ring.
> 
> 2) But Despite his role in padded point karate and such, Rhee was and is a legitimate martial artist, with significant physical strength.
> 
> 3) Rhee trained Ali. From: *http://tinyurl.com/7d33q*
> 
> " Master *Rhee* taught the legendary Bruce Lee his kicking techniques, and
> Bruce Lee taught him how to punch. Master *Rhee* then taught Muhammad *Ali*
> what *Ali* later called his powerful ``Accu-punch.'' *Ali* used it in 1976
> to knock out Bruce Denn in Munich and also in the Joe Frazier
> heavyweight title bout."


I think the photo is more of a publicity stunt (one of Rhee's specalities), IMHO there two hints
1.) Ali is wearing gear, Rhee is not
2.) Rhee is not lying in a crumpled heap on the floor

Rhee met Ali* long* after Ali was (in)famous for his hand speed.  Check the archives under *"clay vs. Liston*".  
Rhee also awards alot of senators and other capital hill types Black belts, great photo opp, but lousy techniques.  Rhee likes getting his picture taken


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## Danjo

In 1967, John Keehan, AKA "Count Dante" hosted the first full contact karate match in the USA. Rhee sent some of his black belts there and they got their tails kicked hard. Rhee _then _came out and said that the tournement etc. was a disgrace to karate etc. etc. ad nauseum. Point is, Rhee's students didn't know how to fight. Presumably, this was before he started watering his stuff down. Also, Ali didn't even knock Frasier down, so how did this so-called "Acu-Punch" work for him in that fight? I saw no TKD style punches in ANY of Ali's fights.


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## The Kai

*"I saw no TKD style punches in ANY of Ali's fights"*

Man, that's a funny image(imagine cosell's voice) one side of the ring Smoking Joe, arms crossed in front of his body, working the upper body movement, looking to land that fearsome Left hook.  Wait Ali, what is he doing?  He's dropping his right foot back,wayy back.  Now he turning his shoulder away from smoking joe.  It seems folks that Muhammid Ali has his right hand by his belt.  Folks all the way from the cheap seats comes a right hand bomb from ali.  It missed, it seems joe frazier is allready home and in bed by the time ali threw that punch


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## Danjo

The Kai said:
			
		

> *"I saw no TKD style punches in ANY of Ali's fights"*
> 
> Man, that's a funny image(imagine cosell's voice) one side of the ring Smoking Joe, arms crossed in front of his body, working the upper body movement, looking to land that fearsome Left hook. Wait Ali, what is he doing? He's dropping his right foot back,wayy back. Now he turning his shoulder away from smoking joe. It seems folks that Muhammid Ali has his right hand by his belt. Folks all the way from the cheap seats comes a right hand bomb from ali. It missed, it seems joe frazier is allready home and in bed by the time ali threw that punch


LOL! Too funny man!


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## eyebeams

Danjo said:
			
		

> In 1967, John Keehan, AKA "Count Dante" hosted the first full contact karate match in the USA. Rhee sent some of his black belts there and they got their tails kicked hard. Rhee _then _came out and said that the tournement etc. was a disgrace to karate etc. etc. ad nauseum. Point is, Rhee's students didn't know how to fight. Presumably, this was before he started watering his stuff down. Also, Ali didn't even knock Frasier down, so how did this so-called "Acu-Punch" work for him in that fight? I saw no TKD style punches in ANY of Ali's fights.


 So the answer is that Muhammed Ali is a liar? Uh . . . reaching a tad, aren't we?


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## eyebeams

The Kai said:
			
		

> I think the photo is more of a publicity stunt (one of Rhee's specalities), IMHO there two hints
> 1.) Ali is wearing gear, Rhee is not
> 2.) Rhee is not lying in a crumpled heap on the floor
> 
> Rhee met Ali* long* after Ali was (in)famous for his hand speed.  Check the archives under *"clay vs. Liston*".
> Rhee also awards alot of senators and other capital hill types Black belts, great photo opp, but lousy techniques. Rhee likes getting his picture taken


 Yes yes, you don't like him. I don't like him either, but that's utterly irrelevant. The fact that it was a photo-op doesn't matter much, either. There's a plethora of evidence that Rhee and Ali have had a lifelong association. If Rhee was claiming he did something for Ali that Ali didn't like, do you really think Muhammad Ali or nowadays, his representatives, would take it sitting down? Especially since it seems the two men actually see each other every couple of years?


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## Ubermint

Danjo said:
			
		

> In 1967, John Keehan, AKA "Count Dante" hosted the first full contact karate match in the USA. Rhee sent some of his black belts there and they got their tails kicked hard. Rhee _then _came out and said that the tournement etc. was a disgrace to karate etc. etc. ad nauseum. Point is, Rhee's students didn't know how to fight. Presumably, this was before he started watering his stuff down. Also, Ali didn't even knock Frasier down, so how did this so-called "Acu-Punch" work for him in that fight? I saw no TKD style punches in ANY of Ali's fights.


I find it hard to believe that this guy hosted the first full contact tournament in the states.


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## The Kai

Where did you get lifelong association?

There were a lot of people who had there pic taken with Ali, and tried to rub some of the fame onto themselves


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## eyebeams

The Kai said:
			
		

> Where did you get lifelong association?
> 
> There were a lot of people who had there pic taken with Ali, and tried to rub some of the fame onto themselves


 That would be the multiple pics taken over the years. Rhe's side includes relatively recent pics of him an Ali as well, and a (no doubt dictated) letter from Ali wishing Rhee a happy birthday.


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## The Kai

Wow-somehow I've only seen the same picture all these years.

Regardless Ali (Clay) was famous for his hand speed long before Rhee fortuatly made his way to Ali's gym.  Ali did'nt change his punching style after he met rhee-therefore, ali did'nt learn any thing from rhee


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## Danjo

Ubermint said:
			
		

> I find it hard to believe that this guy hosted the first full contact tournament in the states.


Man your link shows Ashida Kim, not Count Dante. Nevertheless, what I wrote was true, strange as it might seem.


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## madfrank

Hi All



To clarify my no boxer has ever fought a MA.



The Ali wrestler thing was nearly called off when the wrestler saw Ali on the bag.



He came out with all sorts of rules which Ali accepted as this was just a bit of fun for him.



Then the cowardly wrestler spent most of the fight on the floor kicking at Ali's legs.



I watched this live.


Did no one here actually see this debarcle?


Doesnt sound like it.



The wrestler was too scared to stand up but couldnt get Ali who had no grappling training down.





The gracies never fought a trained boxer.



They had old journeymen with no fight records to speak of in their contests.



The Gracies invented the competition and the rules and consequently won the first few.



But once everyone knew what they were up to they withdrew. LOL


A lot of Top MA's fought so called boxers but no MA's ever actually had a real fight against a real boxer.


The old story about motobu as told in that work of fiction 'the dojo' by pete urban god red his book it is nonsense.

And in the magazine article if you read it it is obvious the author of the article never witnessed the fight.

It was allegedly told to him duhhhhh.

Plus the karateman has been variously ascribed to several MA's

It is an urban myth.


Name me a top boxer who has had an actual fight with a top MA's


MF


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## Ubermint

Milo Savage.


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## madfrank

Duhhh


the savage le bell fight was a joke

savage was an old man

he was never a champion but a journey man

like i said

MF


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## swiftpete

The Kai said:
			
		

> I think the photo is more of a publicity stunt (one of Rhee's specalities), IMHO there two hints
> 1.) Ali is wearing gear, Rhee is not
> 2.) Rhee is not lying in a crumpled heap on the floor


Haha, the second point made me laugh!


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## NotQuiteDead

http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=003307

http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/fightfinder.asp?fighterid=11896

 Pure strikers of any kind get destroyed in mma, and pure grapplers probably would too.


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## bobster_ice

karate is better


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## bobster_ice

way better


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## ppko

Sorry to bring this back up I just now read the thread.  But as to Martial Artist that Ali credited, for his boxing I can only think of one, George Dillman he was on Ali's staff and credited in many newspaper articles by Ali.  The biggest thing he taught Ali was breathing techniques.  George now owns Ali's training camp, Ali sold it to him for a good price.


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## Danjo

ppko said:
			
		

> Sorry to bring this back up I just now read the thread. But as to Martial Artist that Ali credited, for his boxing I can only think of one, George Dillman he was on Ali's staff and credited in many newspaper articles by Ali. The biggest thing he taught Ali was breathing techniques. George now owns Ali's training camp, Ali sold it to him for a good price.


 
Ali has a sense of humor. He also credited Stepinfetchit for teaching him his "Anchor Punch."


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## jazkiljok

SammyB57 said:
			
		

> I've read before about matches between karate masters and boxers back in the old days (pre-1960). Does anyone have information on these matches, or on more modern type challenge matches?
> 
> Also, how has karate evolved since pre-1960?



there's some articles on the web about the earlier bouts- chinese and japanese martial artists were impressed by the western boxing techniques and attempted to match their skill in sporting matches-- the martial artists usually ended up on their backs. boxing became hugely popular amongst martial artists before the turn of the 20th century-- the chinese and japanese both began to study the sport with great enthusiasm. they also were impressed with western wrestling as well.

here's some links

http://www.dragon-tsunami.org/Dtimes/Pages/articlee.htm

http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=212

http://seinenkai.com/

the story of motobu is pretty consistent in that he succesfully k.o'd a boxer- though one doubts that the boxer he fought was anyone but a journey man boxer and not any champion (some russian guy is how he's described in most articles i've seen)- it's also important to note that the boxer had already dispatched quite a few judo/karate guys before motobu jumped in and hit him-- one wonders how well he might have done had motobu been his first bout.

as for modern times- gene labell and milo savage was the most famous in the 60s- black belt magazine had an archived article on its website for many years but my link is no longer working...  i think milo was in decent shape for that bout- labell was the bigger guy however in this instance- milo was no heavyweight but he was a good boxer and landed a few solid blows to labell before labell closed the gap on him and tossed him, later if i recall he broke or traumatized milo's arm before choking him out-- but if milo was a heavyweight- those early blows might have made a big difference...

ali vs the sumo wrestler was the other well known match but widely considered a joke (they both dance around each other for most of the match.) joe lewis wrote an article on the bout. ali did hire karate guys to do body guard work for him and respected the arts for what they were intended for-- self-defense.

back in the late 60s- there were a few random karate vs. boxer matches- mostly side shows for local boxing crowds-- there was a match in boston that my friends went to see and they told me how some no name boxer beat in succession a bunch of no name karate guys. they thought it was funny but no one was sure what it proved or didn't prove. 

the first ufc featured a middleweight (name?) who came in against royce gracie wearing a single glove and looking a bit lost in the ring-- it was obvious that he wasn't clear on what he could or couldn't do in the fight and promptly lost.

today the MMA have made boxing, kicking and grappling skills mandatory to be competitive, so the pure anything vs the versatile fighter is not much of an issue..

happy new year.

Jaz


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## ppko

Danjo said:
			
		

> Ali has a sense of humor. He also credited Stepinfetchit for teaching him his "Anchor Punch."


First of all Ali would not of had Mr. Dillman on his staff if he did not have something to offer, and second of all he would not have sold the training camp to George for so cheap if he didn't like and respect him


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## Grenadier

Boxers, in general, will be able to take more punishment, especially to the head, than a Karate-ka.  

The fact remains, that most experienced boxers have been pounded in the head so many times, that their nerve endings are essentially shot in that area.  This is why they can take shots to the head / face that would otherwise make the overwhelming majority of us well up in tears.  Could we, as Karate-ka, do such training?  Sure, but I doubt that most of us would want to lose those nerve endings.  Furthermore, I'm sure that most of us don't exactly relish the idea of losing that many brain cells.


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## ppko

Danjo said:
			
		

> Ali has a sense of humor. He also credited Stepinfetchit for teaching him his "Anchor Punch."


espn.go.com/sportscentury/features/00014057.html a website to back up my claim


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## searcher

Karate has more diverse techniques and boxing has a few specialty techniques.   I have done both for many years and think they both have a great deal to offer.   This discussion will never be settled until they offer a world class boxer a large purse to step into the ring with a world class karate-ka.   It is NEVER going to happen.


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