# Americans woefully ignorant about religion, study says



## Bill Mattocks (Sep 28, 2010)

This comes as no shock to me.  Atheists and Agnostics score the highest on the study's questions about religion.

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2010/09/28/dont-know-much-about-religion-youre-not-alone-study-finds/


> Odds are that you know Mother Teresa was Catholic, but what religion is the Dalai Lama?
> How about Maimonides?
> And - no Googling - what's the first book of the Bible? How about the first four books of the New Testament?
> Americans who can answer all of those questions are relatively rare, a huge new study has found.
> ...



You can take the quiz yourself.  I got 9 of 10 right.  I didn't know that the Jewish Sabbath begins on Friday (at sundown; actually I had been taught that, but I did not recall it).


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## Stac3y (Sep 28, 2010)

I got 9 out of 10 right, as well; I didn't know the main religion of Indonesia.


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## girlbug2 (Sep 28, 2010)

10/10

But I suspect that I'm more religion-oriented than most. Even so, those questions seemed pretty basic.


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 28, 2010)

girlbug2 said:


> 10/10
> 
> But I suspect that I'm more religion-oriented than most. Even so, those questions seemed pretty basic.



Indeed; they apparently were not the only questions asked during the survey.

http://pewforum.org/U-S-Religious-Knowledge-Survey-About-the-Project.aspx

However, at the moment, I cannot get through; apparently their server is too busy.  I'm sure things will get better soon.


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## Tez3 (Sep 28, 2010)

girlbug2 said:


> 10/10
> 
> But I suspect that I'm more religion-oriented than most.* Even so, those questions seemed pretty basic*.


 

Indeed, they were what we'd expect children in primary school to be able to answer. I got 10/10 as well I'm not religious focused though other than on my own.


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 28, 2010)

Here's the actual quiz from Pew, if you can get through:

http://features.pewforum.org/quiz/us-religious-knowledge/

Also:







This one is good too:






I would have missed the question about Jonathan Edwards above.


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## Empty Hands (Sep 28, 2010)

A common story from atheists I've talked to is that searching out and studying their religion and then other religions was part of their "awakening" to atheism.  Their basic point is that it was easy to believe in a fuzzy way without details or thinking too hard about it, but studying their religious texts closely exposed them to the absurdities and contradictions, which they could no longer ignore.  Most atheists and agnostics grew up in religious households after all, in a religious country, so it's no surprise that their development would take this course.

In my experience, most theologians and other scholars of their religion also tend to be less dogmatic and more thoughtful.  It's hard to believe that the Bible is the inerrant source of all morality when you read it closely, you study how many different authors were involved, you realize the intent of stories like Lot and his daughters given political realities of the times, and so forth.


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 28, 2010)

Empty Hands said:


> A common story from atheists I've talked to is that searching out and studying their religion and then other religions was part of their "awakening" to atheism.  Their basic point is that it was easy to believe in a fuzzy way without details or thinking too hard about it, but studying their religious texts closely exposed them to the absurdities and contradictions, which they could no longer ignore.  Most atheists and agnostics grew up in religious households after all, in a religious country, so it's no surprise that their development would take this course.



Yes, I read that in the New York Times version of this news story.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/28/us/28religion.html



> Even after all these other factors, including education, are taken into  account, atheists and agnostics, Jews and Mormons still outperform all  the other religious groups in our survey, said Greg Smith, a senior  researcher at Pew.
> That finding might surprise some, but not Dave Silverman, president of  American Atheists, an advocacy group for nonbelievers that was founded  by Madalyn Murray OHair.
> I have heard many times that atheists know more about religion than  religious people, Mr. Silverman said. Atheism is an effect of that  knowledge, not a lack of knowledge. I gave a Bible to my daughter.  *Thats how you make atheists.		*



I have some basic disagreement with those who feel that deep knowledge of religion leads to atheism, although I could certainly understand how it could lead to agnosticism or lack of belief that any given religion is the 'right' religion.  I, for one, consider myself reasonably well-educated on the world's great religions, as well as some of the lesser-known cults and historical religions.  None of what I've learned has turned my mind away from the notion of a Creator, even if I can't quite adopt a wholesale adoption of the entire dogma of my own faith, Catholicism.

I find the gentleman's statement above (Mr. Silverman) offensive.  But I do find it typical of some atheists who are not so much disbelievers as cult members of an anti-faith faith.  I have an online friend who spends a great deal of time online tub-thumping against religion, as well as mouthing her continued hatred for all things religious and pinning all the ills of the world on religions and religious people.  She even takes vacations to attend Atheist conventions (who knew there were such things) where she can rant and rave about how awful religion is.  To me, that is way beyond simple disbelief.  Her knowledge of religion seems good, and her points are salient.  But the dogma is no different from any other fundamentalist religion.  If knowledge of religion brought her to that, I'd say she'd have been a tub-thumper no matter what; it seems to be integral to her personality.



> In my experience, most theologians and other scholars of their religion also tend to be less dogmatic and more thoughtful.  It's hard to believe that the Bible is the inerrant source of all morality when you read it closely, you study how many different authors were involved, you realize the intent of stories like Lot and his daughters given political realities of the times, and so forth.



I agree.  The Jesuits are often knwon as _"God's Heretics"_ for good reason.  I have always admired the Jewish tradition of challenging everything.  Intellectual rigor impresses me, even when it leads to results that conflict with my stated religious beliefs.

Fortunately, I can compartmentalize my beliefs and my understandings.


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## Bruno@MT (Sep 28, 2010)

9/10 I was unsure about indonesia.
As for my personal religion; I am something inbetween catholic, pagan and agnostic I guess.


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## Omar B (Sep 28, 2010)

It's pretty accurate.  I've found myself quoting bible verses to christian friends at times, stuff they honestly didn't know.  I grew up in a house with 2 religious traditions, so I guess unconsciously I've made an informal study of it.


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## WC_lun (Sep 28, 2010)

The thing that gets me is that so many people don't even know thier own religion, but are willing to judge other people upon thier religion.


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## CanuckMA (Sep 28, 2010)

10/10.

I'm not overly surprised by the results. That members of 'minority' religious groups are more educated in other religions is more of a survival technique.

Bill, all Jewish days begin at sundown. It comes from 2 sources mainly. Religiously, every day in the account of creation end with '...and there was evening, and there was morning. Day xx'

Practically, if tou're going to have days with severe prohibitions like Shabbat and some of the festival, knowing when they start is important. In times before clocks, it's prety hard to figure out midnight. You may not be up at sunrise. So sunset is a pretty good demarcation point.


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 28, 2010)

CanuckMA said:


> Bill, all Jewish days begin at sundown. It comes from 2 sources mainly. Religiously, every day in the account of creation end with '...and there was evening, and there was morning. Day xx'



Yeah, I actually knew that, but muffed it on the quiz.  I learned it from watching the movie, _"The Frisco Kid,"_ with Gene Wilder and Harrison Ford.


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## BloodMoney (Sep 28, 2010)

I only got 2 or so wrong in the bigger test. Im surprised.

I scored better than 80% of the population lol, and I have no religious upbringing at all and live in a country with very little (now days at least). I wouldve thought Americans would have scored really high on this, given how much exposure religion gets on television etc..

I wouldnt say im an atheist, but I dont really get into organized religion, personally I feel the life lessons and advice therein is pretty damn obvious (ie: be nice to people, dont root your next door neighbors missus etc). I train to hard to find time to sit down, unfold little mats and pray or break bread and read aloud from a book etc...just not enough hours in the day for that carry on!


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## Tez3 (Sep 28, 2010)

The quiz cut me off half way through! Tad confused about the Jonathan Edwards thing as he's a British Olympic athlete though he is a practising Christian as well as world record holder lol.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Edwards_(athlete)


Bloodmoney, your post made me smile with your use of one particular word, think I'll have to start using it as it gets past the censor


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## Carol (Sep 28, 2010)

10/10, but I have also practiced a few different religions in my own travels, before returning to the Roman Catholic fold earlier this year.

There were two aspects to the online quiz that annoyed me.  8 of the questions had background pictures pertinent to their religion.  2 did not.

The Indonesian question showed people celebrating Ganesha, which is a Hindu celebration.  Bali is part of Indonesia, and the Balinese are traditionally Hindu, but Hinduism is a minority religion of the country...and the majority religion most certainly does not celebrate Ganesha.  

The agnostic question showed an arial shot of a church congregation.  Umm...


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## Phoenix44 (Sep 28, 2010)

Why am I not surprised?


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## Ken Morgan (Sep 28, 2010)

9/10, and I changed my answer at the last second, because I thought it was a trick question!! Atheist.

Its not surprising in many ways. The general population does badly on history/political/science quizzes too, that doesnt necessarily make you a bad Canadian, American or Brit. It means you never bothered to learn it or keep up on it. Life is busy, kids, jobs, (hopefully), school, knowing extra stuff is just that, extra. 

_Frank Sulloway of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and Michael Shermer of California State University conducted a study which found in their polling sample of "credentialed" U.S. adults (12% had Ph.Ds and 62% were college graduates) 64% believed in God, and there was a correlation indicating that religious conviction diminished with education level._


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## Blade96 (Sep 28, 2010)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Here's the actual quiz from Pew, if you can get through:
> 
> http://features.pewforum.org/quiz/us-religious-knowledge/
> 
> ...



I  knew all of these except the last 3.


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## Ramirez (Sep 28, 2010)

14/15 on the bigger test,  I notice that the questions most Americans got wrong were those that were about religions in foreign countries. I am a bit surprised though at the lack of knowledge regarding Martin Luther.


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## Big Don (Sep 28, 2010)

10/10, not because I am religious, just a result of my natural, all around brilliance


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## Big Don (Sep 28, 2010)

Ramirez said:


> 14/15 on the bigger test,  I notice that the questions most Americans got wrong were those that were about religions in foreign countries. I am a bit surprised though at the lack of knowledge regarding Martin Luther.


Yesterday, I saw a cartoon of Martin Luther nailing his 95 theses to the Pope's chest with a spike. I can't find it now.


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## elder999 (Sep 28, 2010)

15/15, but that shouldn't surprise anyone. :lol:

National Lampoon (the magazine ) once ran a cartoon of Martin Luther nailing 95 _feces_ to the castle church door....:lfao:

In all seriousness, it shouldn't come as any surprise. Religion isn't about scholarship, for most-and, with a few exceptions (like Judaism), really shouldn't be. When most of these faiths started, though, people were in the presence of the real events (whatever they were) that were the origin of that faith, or in the presence of those who could tell the tale, and saw things through _that_ lens, while we're left to look at them through a lens of hundreds or thousands of years of refinement, later scholarship, commentary, seemingly arbitrary decisions, decisions by committee,myth, myth and more myth-sometimes downright con jobs-conflict, schism, usurpation, politicization, unification and reunification, and-sometimes-periods of near extinction-_mistranslations, mistranslations, and *mistranslations of mistranslations*._

These are the subjects of scholarship, and it's no wonder that they often (not "always") lead to atheism or agnosticism-they are, after all, the _products of the men who made them._


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## geezer (Sep 28, 2010)

10/10 on the short one... but why not. I'm agnostic! Seriously, most agnostics and atheists got to where they are by doing some soul searching and checking out world religions. So they should be a little more aware of religious beliefs in the broader sense than someone who never questioned what they were brought up to believe. On the other hand, my nephews attended a Jesuit prep school and some of their Jesuit teachers were not only very well educated but quite broad minded as well. The local Catholic diocese schools are far more _parochial..._ (yeah, I know, a really _groan_ bad pun. Just couldn't resist).


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## David43515 (Sep 29, 2010)

10/10 on the small one and 15/15 on the larger one. Mormon.

I would have missed the one about Miamonedese if it had come up, but I got lucky. (I remembered it after the test, Amazing what you can pick up whatching The Simpsons.) I guessed about the "First Great Awakening", never heard of it.

I`ve always been religious, just not always obedient. And I`ve always been interested in what other people believe and what they thier opinions are.


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## Cirdan (Sep 29, 2010)

10/10 and 15/15, but I`ll admit I got lucky since at I just went with my gut on at least one (Joseph Smith sounds like a mormon name to me). I don`t follow any religion or -ism. Hmph, I should sue my junior high teacher for givving me a D in religion. Anyway it is way more interesting and easier to remember that chatholics actually eat christ, than ro recite some dry text.

What suprises me is how anyone can score as low as 50% since most the questions are extremely easy ones.


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## CoryKS (Sep 29, 2010)

9/10, 14/15.  In the spirit of full disclosure, I corrected the answer I got wrong on the first quiz when I took the second one, so technically 13/15.  

I think that branding everybody as 'woefully ignorant' because they don't know the answer to these questions is unfair, because it assumes that people have an obligation to know these things.  Unless it pertains to one's own religion, there's no obligation.  As an atheist, I consider this knowledge to be trivia.  I just happen to be good at trivia.


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## mcjon77 (Sep 29, 2010)

10/10 and 14/15.  I also missed the Jonathan Edwards question.  I thank my Jesuit education (high school and college) for my success.  My freshman year of high school, our required religion class was "World Religions".  That Jesuit education turned a lot of people into agnostics, but I believe it also gave those that stayed Catholics, or returned to Catholicism later in life a deeper understanding of their faith and of faith in general.


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 29, 2010)

elder999 said:


> In all seriousness, it shouldn't come as any surprise. Religion isn't about scholarship, for most-and, with a few exceptions (like Judaism), really shouldn't be. When most of these faiths started, though, people were in the presence of the real events (whatever they were) that were the origin of that faith, or in the presence of those who could tell the tale, and saw things through _that_ lens, while we're left to look at them through a lens of hundreds or thousands of years of refinement, later scholarship, commentary, seemingly arbitrary decisions, decisions by committee,myth, myth and more myth-sometimes downright con jobs-conflict, schism, usurpation, politicization, unification and reunification, and-sometimes-periods of near extinction-_mistranslations, mistranslations, and *mistranslations of mistranslations*._
> 
> These are the subjects of scholarship, and it's no wonder that they often (not "always") lead to atheism or agnosticism-they are, after all, the _products of the men who made them._



I agree with all of that; however I think it is still an issue.  Not because people don't study religion enough, but because they tend to make generalizations about what believers of other religions believe, and they're wrong.

One can argue how many angels can dance upon the head of a pin; but if one does not know that faith A believes in angels and faith B does not, then this can give rise to the worst kind of bigotry - mistaken bigotry.

I speak with some experience.  When I moved to NC, I was told by a neighbor that he thought I was _"OK for a Catholic,"_ but we Catholics are really Satan-worshipers because we believe everything the Pope says is the inerrant Word of God.  Uh, that's not true.  We only believe that the Pope is inerrant when he speaks _ex cathedra_, which no Pope has done since 1953 or so.  Want to dislike Catholics?  Fine!  But please hate us for actual facts, not stuff you made up or misheard.

Obviously we see this to a far greater extent lately with regard to what folks believe about the Islamic faith; in the past, it was about the Jewish faith.

Lack of scholarship is not the same as dangerous (and often intentional) ignorance.


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 29, 2010)

Ken Morgan said:


> Its not surprising in many ways. The general population does badly on history/political/science quizzes too, that doesnt necessarily make you a bad Canadian, American or Brit. It means you never bothered to learn it or keep up on it. Life is busy, kids, jobs, (hopefully), school, knowing extra stuff is just that, extra.




However, much bigotry is based upon disagreement with what another believes or does based on their faith.  _"He sacrifices goats, and I have a problem with that."_  When the bigotry is based on misinformation, innuendo, or outright lies...I don't see that as a good thing.  A person can certainly be a 'good person' without knowing a thing about religion; but if they're going to hate members of religion A on the basis that they do X, Y, or Z, it behooves them to know that this actually what they believe or do.


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## Tez3 (Sep 29, 2010)

I was once told by a woman she knew all about Jews because she'd seen Fiddler on the Roof a few times. 
Education is the key to defeating bigotry, the more we know about each other the more we find we have in common and the less chance of misunderstandings or at any rate more chance of sorting them out. Well hopefully


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## bribrius (Sep 29, 2010)

why should you know about religion?


who ever said everyone had to start liking everyone else or have just cause for not liking them? "well you have to justify you are not a bigot and know enough to not like them."   Okay then i ask simply "why?". Goes back to play nice with the toys, in the sandbox, team player "orthodox " that has run rampant in recent years. That in itself is a brainwashing concept. Why do you have to have just cause or reason for not liking something or someone? seems to me that if you dont like something that is a individual choice, not be decided by others. Just as if you choose not to know about it.


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## Tez3 (Sep 29, 2010)

bribrius said:


> why should you know about religion?
> 
> 
> *who ever said everyone had to start liking everyone else or have just cause for not liking them?* well you have to justify you are not a bigot and know enough to not like them. Goes back to play nice with the toys, in the sandbox, team player "orthodox " that has run rampant in recent years. That in itself is a brainwashing concept. Why do you have to have just cause or reason for not liking something or someone? seems to me that if you dont like something that is a individual choice, not be decided by others.


 

No on said you have to like anything at all but remaining ignorant of the world and people around you is well, plain ignorant. It's not a matter of liking at all, it's a matter of education and knowledge. if you have enemies or people wanting to destroy your way of life all the more important that you understand them. Understanding is everything, knowledge is power. Stumbling around in the dark is a miserable way to exist.


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 29, 2010)

bribrius said:


> why should you know about religion?



To avoid making stupid mistakes.



> who ever said everyone had to start liking everyone else or have just cause for not liking them?  well you have to justify you are not a bigot and know enough to not like them.  Goes back to play nice with the toys, in the sandbox, team player "orthodox " that has run rampant in recent years. That in itself is a brainwashing concept.  Why do you have to have just cause or reason for not liking something or someone?  seems to me that if you dont like something that is a individual choice, not be decided by others.



It is certainly a personal choice to remain ignorant.  And I would not wish to mandate that people be forced to become educated on religion, or that they be forced to be nice to others whom they do not like.  I will even support your idea that a person should not be forced to like or dislike someone based on facts; they are certainly free to hate someone based upon mistaken notions and misunderstood facts if they wish.  That is the core of freedom; freedom even to be a complete idiot.

However, I will say that in terms of societies functioning well, such behavior is ugly and I personally don't care for it.  I find it loathsome and reprehensible that a person would intentionally choose to be bigoted; even worse that they would do so based upon incorrect facts.  Intentional ignorance I have run into before.  I understand it, but I don't approve of it.  

I've met my share of ignorant buffoons who become physically angry if not violent at the very idea of learning anything which would tend to disprove their misconceptions.  I once had a very heated debate with an (ex) girlfriend who declared that Jesus was not a Jew.  The very notion that he could have been a Jew interfered with her hatred of Jews, so of course he wasn't one.  When I tried to point it out in her own Bible where it said he was a Jew, of the House of David, we broke up.  Well, whatever.  Free country, she's free to believe such idiocy.  And I'm free to continue to think of her as not just stupid, but dangerously so.


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## WC_lun (Sep 29, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> I was once told by a woman she knew all about Jews because she'd seen Fiddler on the Roof a few times.
> Education is the key to defeating bigotry, the more we know about each other the more we find we have in common and the less chance of misunderstandings or at any rate more chance of sorting them out. Well hopefully


 

Unfortunately, I think a lot of people today do not want to understand other people or know more. They are comfortable with thier hate and bigotry.  Learning something that might endanger that comfort is not wanted.  Never mind that greater understanding might lead to less violence.  That isn't a concern.


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## Ramirez (Sep 29, 2010)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I've met my share of ignorant buffoons who become physically angry if not violent at the very idea of learning anything which would tend to disprove their misconceptions.  I once had a very heated debate with an (ex) girlfriend who declared that Jesus was not a Jew.  The very notion that he could have been a Jew interfered with her hatred of Jews, so of course he wasn't one.  When I tried to point it out in her own Bible where it said he was a Jew, of the House of David, we broke up.  Well, whatever.  Free country, she's free to believe such idiocy.  And I'm free to continue to think of her as not just stupid, but dangerously so.



  actually Bill I am surprised you got to the point of having someone like that as girlfriend.....hated Jews??????   I can't imagine she was a wonderful person in all other aspects and this came as a shock to you.


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## Tez3 (Sep 29, 2010)

Ramirez said:


> actually Bill I am surprised you got to the point of having someone like that as girlfriend.....hated Jews?????? I can't imagine she was a wonderful person in all other aspects and this came as a shock to you.


 
Funny if she turned out to be Jewish and didn't know it! There was a story on AOL the other day about two neo Nazis in Poland who had admitted beating up Jews etc who researched their backgrounds and found out they were actually Jewish. They actually are now even going to shul and are sorry for the people they beat up! It's too late at night now for me to look fo the story, must sleep! (it's the 'I'll just click on to one more post' syndrome lol at the moment, must be firm and shut the computer down)


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 29, 2010)

Ramirez said:


> actually Bill I am surprised you got to the point of having someone like that as girlfriend.....hated Jews??????   I can't imagine she was a wonderful person in all other aspects and this came as a shock to you.



We fell madly into bed with each other.  The learning experience came later.  Cost a lot, too.


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## Ramirez (Sep 29, 2010)

Bill Mattocks said:


> We fell madly into bed with each other.  The learning experience came later.  Cost a lot, too.



  Well I can relate to thinking with the wrong head....


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## SensibleManiac (Sep 29, 2010)

I scored 8 on 10 but one was a mistake, I new Jesus was born in Bethlehem but didn't pay attention to the question, other than that it is interesting that those who claim to be atheists know most about religion, I agree that usually those who study religion the most will end up not believing it.



> But I do find it typical of some atheists who are not so much disbelievers as cult members of an anti-faith faith.



Although I do agree that there are some anti-theism thumpers, most who will question the existence of God or even deny it have come to this conclusion through rational thought not rationalizing and that is never a bad thing.

Logic is what seperates us from all the other animals, along with compassion.


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## SensibleManiac (Sep 29, 2010)

> why should you know about religion?
> 
> 
> who ever said everyone had to start liking everyone else or have just cause for not liking them? "well you have to justify you are not a bigot and know enough to not like them." Okay then i ask simply "why?". Goes back to play nice with the toys, in the sandbox, team player "orthodox " that has run rampant in recent years. That in itself is a brainwashing concept. Why do you have to have just cause or reason for not liking something or someone? seems to me that if you dont like something that is a individual choice, not be decided by others. Just as if you choose not to know about it.



You don't have to "know about religion" as you put it, but if you say anything about religion or judge others based on it or claim to be religious, then YES, you do have to know about it, or else you're just a hypocrite and an idiot.

You don't have to like everyone else either, but if you don't have a reason for not liking something or someone then what does that say about you, besides that you're not very bright. You can choose to be an idiot too, but don't expect everyone else to think very highly of you, or you of yourself.

I'm of course not talking directly about you as I don't know you and maybe you're only asking to have an answer, but to answer your question, if you don't like someone for no reason at all you are usually hiding from your own inadequacies and it's easier to take when you hate someone else. That way you don't feel as bad about yourself because you take the focus off of what you hate about yourself.


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## Ken Morgan (Sep 29, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> I was once told by a woman she knew all about Jews because she'd seen Fiddler on the Roof a few times.
> Education is the key to defeating bigotry, the more we know about each other the more we find we have in common and the less chance of misunderstandings or at any rate more chance of sorting them out. Well hopefully


 

I dont necessarily disagree with you TEZ, but how you are raised I believe is just as important as education. I grew up in a very multicultural area, and knew very little about the cultures of those around me, but my parents taught me to treat everyone with respect and dignity, so thats what I did. I think I had one or two friends from my own cultural background growing up, everyone else I knew were from all over the world. 

Bigotry is hereditary.


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## elder999 (Sep 29, 2010)

bribrius said:


> why should you know about religion?.


 
Because it's part of who *we* are:













By "we." I meant _human beings,_ btw...


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## Ken Morgan (Sep 29, 2010)

Or who we *were*...

(btw Love the photo's Elder!!)


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## Carol (Sep 29, 2010)

I think Elder is right.  Who we ARE.  Religion, language, and culture are tightly intertwined.     A person may not be Christian or Jewish in their own worldview, but with an (Anglophone) North American upbringing, their language is still going to reflect, among other influences, Judeo-Christian culture.  (Maybe British and Australian too? Not sure)  Many scriptures are magnificent works of literature.

"Snuff you out"

"Missed by a hair"

"He took his life in to his hands"

"Asking for it"

"Stumbling block"

"More or less"

"Fly in the ointment"  

"Go the extra mile"

"How the mighty have fallen"

"Laughingstock"

"On the tip of my tongue"

"Sour grapes"

"Nothing new under the sun"

"Scapegoat"

"Pearls before swine"

"Nothing but skin and bones"

"Wolf in sheep's clothing"  

"Eat, Drink, and Be Merry"

"Old Wives's Tales"


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## Aikikitty (Sep 29, 2010)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Here's the actual quiz from Pew, if you can get through:
> 
> http://features.pewforum.org/quiz/us-religious-knowledge/
> 
> ...



:lurk:

I got 9 out of 10 on the short quiz. I missed the Most Popular Religion in Indonesia.  For the full quiz, the only question I didn't know (besides the Indonesia one) was the last one---Maimonides was Jewish.  I'm a non-denominational, Bible-believing Christian.  I suppose that puts me in the "White Evangelical Protestant".  I also went to Youth Group in my teens so according to the study that's bonus points for scoring well.

From the article


> "They were raised in a faith and have made a decision to identify  themselves with groups that tend to be fairly unpopular," atheists and  agnostics, he says.


I guess it depends how you look at is as plenty of people get bashed in this country for being "Christian" too.  I realize the article was meaning to go at the angle of the atheists and agnostics growing up in religious backgrounds and being unpopular with their family and groups.  

I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of "religious" people scored low on the quiz because they were just raised "that way" and didn't go through the questioning phase to research, or have an in-depth study of the Bible (or whatever).  As a teen, I went through the questioning phase and eventually decided that my faith wasn't just from how my parent's raised me, but I chose to believe what I believe on my own...just like the atheists and agnostics.  We just decided to believe (or not know what to believe) differently.  Also, how many of the "religious" people who did the survey are sincere in their faith or "in name only" because of whatever school they went to as a kid or they pop into a church during the holidays?  Or those people could go to a church where the teachings are watered down--quite a few of those churches around.

Robyn


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## bribrius (Sep 29, 2010)

SensibleManiac said:


> You don't have to "know about religion" as you put it, but if you say anything about religion or judge others based on it or claim to be religious, then YES, you do have to know about it, or else you're just a hypocrite and an idiot.
> 
> You don't have to like everyone else either, but if you don't have a reason for not liking something or someone then what does that say about you, besides that you're not very bright. You can choose to be an idiot too, but don't expect everyone else to think very highly of you, or you of yourself.
> 
> I'm of course not talking directly about you as I don't know you and maybe you're only asking to have an answer, but to answer your question, if you don't like someone for no reason at all you are usually hiding from your own inadequacies and it's easier to take when you hate someone else. That way you don't feel as bad about yourself because you take the focus off of what you hate about yourself.


 
too deep for me.

what if i just don't like someone or something. No particuliar reason. Just don't.


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## bribrius (Sep 29, 2010)

i didn't even take the quiz. I don't like the topic enough to bother.  So technically that must make me even more woefully ignorant because now i dont know about the quiz and my results either...


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## elder999 (Sep 29, 2010)

bribrius said:


> i didn't even take the quiz. I don't like the topic enough to bother. So technically that must make me even more woefully ignorant because now i dont know about the quiz and my results either...


 

Well, then why bother with joining the conversation?


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## bribrius (Sep 29, 2010)

elder999 said:


> Well, then why bother with joining the conversation?


 saw a couple things skimming through i questioned.

consider my posting the equivilent of testing a peace demonstration by saying you dont believe in peace and waiting for someone there to hit you over it.

One group quick to judge another for judging them.

i say i dont like something or someone. what is the first reaction? well i must be a idiot then. sounds like bigotry almost. someone thinks or believes a certain way another doesn't agree with. well they must be a bigot/uneducated or something must be wrong with them.

"well that isn't right. you have to think like this"


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## elder999 (Sep 29, 2010)

bribrius said:


> saw a couple things skimming through i questioned.
> 
> consider my posting the equivilent of testing a peace demonstration by saying you dont believe in peace and waiting for someone there to hit you over it.
> 
> ...


 
Oh, okay.


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## Omar B (Sep 30, 2010)

This is the same guy who refereed to a gay man as a "homo Doug" in another thread Elder, I wouldn't put much stock in his pearls of wisdom from someone who uses the word "bigot" while using derogatory terms.


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## David43515 (Sep 30, 2010)

bribrius said:


> saw a couple things skimming through i questioned.
> 
> consider my posting the equivilent of testing a peace demonstration by saying you dont believe in peace and waiting for someone there to hit you over it.
> 
> ...


 
It`s entirely possible that you _are,_ in fact, an idiot. However I think it has nothing to do with your religious beliefs or the lack thereof. It has to do with the fact that you would jump into a conversation you admit you know little or nothing about (since the subject is the quiz you didn`t take) and feel it nessesary to share your opinion. The fact that you seem to have taken offense to something that no one here has said doesn`t help your image either.

Incidently, the quiz wasn`t about what the people who took it believe or don`t believ. It was almost something out of a Jr High class with a tiny bit of literature thrown in. "Who was this person" "What`s the most common religion in that country?" "What book says this?"etc. Most of it was just common sense stuff that might be handy to know if you live in a large city and want to get along well with your neighbors and coworkers. ie: if you`re inviting hindu friends over for a party don`t plan on serving hamburgers. Muslim friends might not want to house sit your puppy while you`re out of town. Or just the fact that the phrase "Holy Cow" isn`t from the bible.


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## Omar B (Sep 30, 2010)

I would not go that far David.  Maybe he is 12?


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## Tez3 (Sep 30, 2010)

bribrius said:


> saw a couple things skimming through i questioned.
> 
> consider my posting the equivilent of testing a peace demonstration by saying you dont believe in peace and waiting for someone there to hit you over it.
> 
> ...


 

You don't like what exactly? You haven't said. You don't like quizs, education, discussions, what?

No one has said you had to like anything or think any thing in particular. Cerntainly no one has called you an idiot.... basically because we actually have no idea what you are talking about.

We all took a quiz asking about how much we knew about world religions, we discussed some questions we knew the answers to and some questions we didn't. Some of us knew bits others didn't, some knew all the answers. It wasn't about what your beliefs are or whether you like other religions, just whether you  knew anything about them. We also discussed the findings of the originators of the quiz about the people they put the quiz to, again not asking for beliefs but measuring the knowledge people have of others religions. If any judgments were made it was that education is a good thing and living in ignorance isn't a good thing. 

Now if you want to join in the conversation, take time to read the posts and comment without hysteria about the topic in hand. Don't accuse posters here of somethng they haven't done but you have done quite blatently, hopefully through ignorance and not malice or for the sake of trolling.


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## Cirdan (Sep 30, 2010)

David43515 said:


> It`s entirely possible that you _are,_ in fact, an idiot.


 
I think allowing for the possibility of being an idiot is important in seeking knowledge and wisdom.


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## bribrius (Sep 30, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> You don't like what exactly? You haven't said. You don't like quizs, education, discussions, what?
> 
> No one has said you had to like anything or think any thing in particular. Cerntainly no one has called you an idiot.... basically because we actually have no idea what you are talking about.
> 
> ...


i am in agreement with post 27.


I do not like the portrayal of the quiz results or title of the article. In portrays a fault where none exist. The conversation deviated in this thread from the thread to ignorance and bigotry. Topic of this thread is not just the quiz, nor was the authors article or the quiz it self meant to just show results, but rather show a failure and insinuation that something needed to be corrected. Not too different from a couple of the posters in the thread when reacting to my comments stressing the need for education or commenting on certain peoples views in negative light. Normal course is that increased knowledge of religion should create religious tolerance. I question the very reason for concerning oneself with religious tolerance or learning anothers beliefs, or the need to get along.

Civilizations rise and fall with war from out or war from within. It is natural course as all things come through strife. Many of our arts, are results of strife.

one, half dozen on the same and it is all brainwashing. one judge of another it is the human condition.


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 30, 2010)

bribrius said:


> i say i dont like something or someone. what is the first reaction? well i must be a idiot then.



But you did not say that.   You qualified your dislike - stated that you  might dislike something based on no information, just because you felt  like it, and what's wrong with that?  I think that's the mark of an idiot.  If that's a problem for  you, I can live with it.



> sounds like bigotry almost. someone thinks or believes a certain way another doesn't agree with. well they must be a bigot/uneducated or something must be wrong with them.



No, that sounds like the mark of a troll to me.  So I think this will be our last communication with each other.  Have a nice day.


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## bribrius (Sep 30, 2010)

Bill Mattocks said:


> But you did not say that. You qualified your dislike - stated that you might dislike something based on no information, just because you felt like it, and what's wrong with that? I think that's the mark of an idiot. If that's a problem for you, I can live with it.
> 
> 
> 
> No, that sounds like the mark of a troll to me. So I think this will be our last communication with each other. Have a nice day.


 
no offense meant or taken. i would expect you to feel as such considering your post #29.  You see a problem as well, you believe needs to be corrected where as the problem i see is people thinking as you are...

Your outlook is little differrent than the title.


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## Tez3 (Sep 30, 2010)

The OP says "Americans woefully ignorant about religion, *study says*". As they use to say in school..discuss... and we were. Are Americans woefully ignorant or happily ignorant or even ignorant at all, we were discussing that. Should people be educated on other people's religions, we were discussing that. Post 27 was an opinion put forward in such a way that it reflected what the poster thought without rancour or rudeness, it was  his opinion politely stated. Agree or disagree but don't troll.


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## bribrius (Sep 30, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> The OP says "Americans woefully ignorant about religion, *study says*". As they use to say in school..discuss... and we were. Are Americans woefully ignorant or happily ignorant or even ignorant at all, we were discussing that. Should people be educated on other people's religions, we were discussing that. Post 27 was an opinion put forward in such a way that it reflected what the poster thought without rancour or rudeness, it was his opinion politely stated. Agree or disagree but don't troll.


 

happily not ignorant (direct answer)


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## Omar B (Sep 30, 2010)

Haha, yet another derailed thread.


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## Tez3 (Sep 30, 2010)

bribrius said:


> happily not ignorant (direct answer)


 
I wasn't asking a question.


Thread derailment yep but we can get it back on track


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## Omar B (Sep 30, 2010)

So, people with no religion (like myself) seem to know more than those who do have.  Do you think it's people cloistering themselves away in their various communities?  "I know what's right so I don't have to look outside" and all that type of thinking?  I know for myself I look on religions as separate works and treat them like regular books, even when I was in college for Literature I did a class called "The Bible as Literature" which was pretty cool.  It was a study of the bible not as a religious work, but just as a work.


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## CoryKS (Sep 30, 2010)

Omar B said:


> So, people with no religion (like myself) seem to know more than those who do have. Do you think it's people cloistering themselves away in their various communities? "I know what's right so I don't have to look outside" and all that type of thinking? I know for myself I look on religions as separate works and treat them like regular books, even when I was in college for Literature I did a class called "The Bible as Literature" which was pretty cool. It was a study of the bible not as a religious work, but just as a work.


 
I think it's probably a matter of feeling like the issue has been resolved.  Religion is a means of answering questions about the world and beyond, and once you have a religion (and thus a set of answers), why would you seek further?  Those for whom the questions remain unanswered are more likely to research further.


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## Omar B (Sep 30, 2010)

Maybe you are right.  Frankly if you stop looking for answers then that's pretty lazy I think.  Science doesn't stop at finding an answer.  If we stopped at looking into gravity with Newton then we would never have discovered gravitons.

Oh well, I'm from a home of two religions, my father's side of the family being Hindu and my mother's side being Anglican so to me there was never a one answer in that case.


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 30, 2010)

I think there are lots of reasons why people do not know much about religion, even their own.

As others mentioned, people are busy.  They have lives, they have to go to work, etc.  Not having intellectual curiosity about religion (their own or that of others) is not a sign of 'badness'.

Not knowing about one's own religion (note the number of Catholics who apparently did not know that we consider the consecrated host to be the literal body of Christ and the wine to be the literal blood of Christ) seems a shame to me.  However, I can't say it does any major damage to society as a whole when people don't know facts about their own religion.

However, with regard to religion and society, that is, I think, more of an issue.  We are confronted with issues involving religion on a daily basis, whether we are members of that religion or not.  Our opinions as members of a functioning society matter, and have an impact.  Ignorance seems to me to be irresponsible if one is going to weigh in with an opinion or vote at the polls on the basis of beliefs one has about a religion which are incorrect, biased, or simply non-existent.

Examples abound.  JFK was the first US president who was Catholic; many were afraid of that based on erroneous information about how Catholics 'obey' the Pope on secular issues.  Same was true of presidential candidate Mitt Romney (Mormon).  Same for Joe Lieberman (Jewish).  Same for President Obama (suspected incorrectly of being Muslim).  I contend that if you want to dislike someone on account of their religion, fine.  But if you don't even know what that religion professes, your hatred is based on ignorance.  How one can state that they are proud of being ignorant, intend to remain that way, and yes, they do hate people based on that ignorance is beyond me.

We protest Muslim mosques (not just at Ground Zero) because we don't understand them (witness the boys who were arrested in NY for firing shotguns near a Mosque; they thought that Muslims drink blood).  In the past, such was also true of Jews, Catholics, and Mormons (read their history as they were driven across the USA by violent protests and murdered as they went by good 'Christian' citizens sometime).  Some people came to the USA to flee religious persecution as well; much of that being based on ignorance about what it was that those people actually believed.

It is anyone's right to not know anything about religion, their own or anyone's.  It is likewise anyone's right to have opinions about others based upon their religion, even if their understanding of that religion is incomplete, incorrect, or absent entirely.  We're all free to hate without limit.

However, a functioning society requires a degree of not just tolerance but understanding.  If we, in our ignorance, decide tomorrow that religion X practices ritual human sacrifice on a daily basis, and we rise up and kill them all to prevent this atrocity, is it healthy for our society if in fact such atrocities never took place?

Ignorance I understand.  Being proud of it?  Makes my skin crawl.  Hurts our society.  My opinion.


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 30, 2010)

Omar B said:


> Maybe you are right.  Frankly if you stop looking for answers then that's pretty lazy I think.  Science doesn't stop at finding an answer.  If we stopped at looking into gravity with Newton then we would never have discovered gravitons.
> 
> Oh well, I'm from a home of two religions, my father's side of the family being Hindu and my mother's side being Anglican so to me there was never a one answer in that case.



I think it's fine to decide that you don't agree with a religion and don't wish to know any more about it.  Nothing wrong with that in general.  My objection is with those who decide that they dislike not the religion, but people based upon the religious beliefs of those people, and especially if they don't understand that religion.

We're talking about a variety of things here, from not wanting to learn about a particular religion because one does not have an interest in that religion, to know learning because one disagrees with that religion, to not learning because one does not believe in religion at all, to not learning, but still having an opinion on the goodness or badness of the members of a particular religion based on (intentionally) incorrect information.

A: I don't like Islam.  
B: I disagree with Islam.  
C: I don't know anything about Islam and I don't want to know.  
D: I don't know anything about Islam and I don't want to know and I don't like Muslims.  
E: I don't like Muslims.  
F: I don't like Muslims, because Islam requires them to drink the blood of Christian babies, which I know is not true, but I choose to remain ignorant anyway.

That's what I'm trying to say.  Replace 'Islam' and 'Muslims' above with any religion you like.


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## bribrius (Sep 30, 2010)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I think it's fine to decide that you don't agree with a religion and don't wish to know any more about it. Nothing wrong with that in general. My objection is with those who decide that they dislike not the religion, but people based upon the religious beliefs of those people, and especially if they don't understand that religion.
> 
> We're talking about a variety of things here, from not wanting to learn about a particular religion because one does not have an interest in that religion, to know learning because one disagrees with that religion, to not learning because one does not believe in religion at all, to not learning, but still having an opinion on the goodness or badness of the members of a particular religion based on (intentionally) incorrect information.
> 
> ...


 
it is opposite in practice. our military isn't over there to kill the religion but people. The religion is a bi-product. If one believes taliban ways of cutting off fingers and stoning people for adultry (based on their religion) then i suppose we are killing them and attempting to change them for both who they are and what they practice. 

There is a anti-american sentiment among many muslims that can't be denied. i could post various videos of "down with america, kill america, the end to the heathen" type crap but why bother. It has come down to we either change them over there for the sake of diminishing a threat and gaining some middle east control or we kill them. This is of course, not all muslims. But a element within that can't be denied. some of that element comes with them to the u.s. Not all muslims in the u.s. are eager to assimiliate into u.s. culture, but rather expect the u.s. culture to work around them. This has been seen in propositions in school systems for separate curriculum, seperate rooms, praying rooms, different schedules. similiar problems in the work place with prayer or holiday or whatever the person does for religious practice. Right to the point of denying christmas trees. I know someone who is in social services who told me they are having a drastic increase in religious immigrants collecting services. questionable whether they want to work, or can work and get along. 

Many are traditional and may take social services over sending the woman to work. Then they have eight kids. It is not just a failure of one culture to understand another. It is a failure of assimilation. This is of course not all of them, or anywhere near a majority. But faced with opposition and radical fundamentalists being the most obvious it brings on a reaction, combined with middle east war that is not favorable for getting along. At some point many of us, including myself, having seen enough of it nolonger care if muslims adapt or make it here, or even if they make it there. Between war and being told they object to the town christmas tree and seeing the anti american hate videos the patience is long exhausted. which is sad but almost unavoidable. There is only so much the public can take of a group of people. sad because, i am sure some muslims are very nice people, who are not the ones getting the attention. But since 911 there have been numerous attempted attacks. The last one the suv in newyork. It is a culture of suicide bombers, women, children, no matter. Not all, but these are the ones that stand out. womens rights do not exist in some of these cultures.

The media is constantly repeating the sentiments of much of this thread, get along. Dont allow bigotry. No ignorance allowed. which i questioned already. No one should be required to listen to anti-bigotry garbage while in a war with a population (and religion lets face it most of the middle east probably hates us) while having attempted attacks still done in their homeland by sects of the same group. Or then be told they have to explain why they cant have a separate room in the schools. Many of those here do not assimilate, and segregate themselves. or attempt to.
The other fear, fact based or not, is the religion and people will take over countrys by sheer numbers as they immigrant and have lots of kids. Possibly some truth to it i did read a article a while back on changes in immigration policy to limit it and from certain countrys, religons, from overwhelming one by sheer immigration. Think it was europe with the muslim concern and the immigration law changes. Also the one creating laws they couldnt' cover there face or something.  

"don't be a bigot" is a huge simplification of a much larger problem. One of which once the war started i hold my cup to who wins. Not on the politically correctness. If i was a immigrant muslim i would be attempting to assimilate, being very careful to explain and show a pro american attitude. Unfortunatley many of them are not doing that. so the resulting anti-muslim sentiment, given the above is not only expected but i am not sure i can disagree with it. A rational person at war with people of a faith that says they want to kill them would be skeptical of those immigrating in country of the same faith from the same region of the world.

Now if you are religious i am sure you believe in the tower of babel. If you are a fundamentalist you must believe it word for word.  So if you believe it one must believe there was a valid reason god separated the tribes and the languages. Put together they were too dangerous.  If you dont believe it then consider it a example. There is a reason people dont always get along, and it isnt necessarily a bad thing. That is why we have wars. To solve those disagreements that just cant be agreed upon.


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## Tez3 (Sep 30, 2010)

bribrius said:


> it is opposite in practice. our military isn't over there to kill the religion but people. The religion is a bi-product. If one believes taliban ways of cutting off fingers and stoning people for adultry (based on their religion) then i suppose we are killing them and attempting to change them for both who they are and what they practice.
> 
> There is a anti-american sentiment among many muslims that can't be denied. i could post various videos of "down with america, kill america, the end to the heathen" type crap but why bother. It has come down to we either change them over there for the sake of diminishing a threat and gaining some middle east control or we kill them. This is of course, not all muslims. But a element within that can't be denied. some of that element comes with them to the u.s. Not all muslims in the u.s. are eager to assimiliate into u.s. culture, but rather expect the u.s. culture to work around them. This has been seen in propositions in school systems for separate curriculum, seperate rooms, praying rooms, different schedules. similiar problems in the work place with prayer or holiday or whatever the person does for religious practice. Right to the point of denying christmas trees. I know someone who is in social services who told me they are having a drastic increase in religious immigrants collecting services. questionable whether they want to work, or can work and get along.
> 
> ...


 

What the hell are you on about man?


----------



## WC_lun (Sep 30, 2010)

bribrius said:


> it is opposite in practice. our military isn't over there to kill the religion but people. The religion is a bi-product. If one believes taliban ways of cutting off fingers and stoning people for adultry (based on their religion) then i suppose we are killing them and attempting to change them for both who they are and what they practice.
> 
> There is a anti-american sentiment among many muslims that can't be denied. i could post various videos of "down with america, kill america, the end to the heathen" type crap but why bother. It has come down to we either change them over there for the sake of diminishing a threat and gaining some middle east control or we kill them. This is of course, not all muslims. But a element within that can't be denied. some of that element comes with them to the u.s. Not all muslims in the u.s. are eager to assimiliate into u.s. culture, but rather expect the u.s. culture to work around them. This has been seen in propositions in school systems for separate curriculum, seperate rooms, praying rooms, different schedules. similiar problems in the work place with prayer or holiday or whatever the person does for religious practice. Right to the point of denying christmas trees. I know someone who is in social services who told me they are having a drastic increase in religious immigrants collecting services. questionable whether they want to work, or can work and get along.
> 
> ...


 

I appreciate your post and the way you explain your thoughts on this, but I can't agree with a lot of it.  Most of the hatred of Muslims isn't because of any real valid reasoning.  Most of it is hatred from ignorance, egged on by people who have a motive for increasing the fear and hatred.  Yeah, its true there are Muslims who come to this country and do not assimilate very well.  There are also many Christian groups who expect special treatment and wouldn't really be considered normal everyday citizens.  While the I don't have a problem with people having any specific opinion, even if it is based upon erronious beliefs or just pure bigotry, I do have a problem when actions are taken on those mistaken beliefs...such as the example of the teens firing off shotguns near a mosque because they believed Muslims drank blood.  It comes back to personal responsibility.  A person has a right to believe any damn thing they want.  They do NOT have a right to to take actions on those personal beliefs without consequence.  If a person believes all Muslims are evil, fine.  I think its ignorant, but hey, whatever.  Start shouting it to all the world or taking action upon that mistaken belief then that same person gets to reap the consequences, from being called an idiot for the former to jail time for the latter.


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## Tez3 (Sep 30, 2010)

WC_lun said:


> I appreciate your post and the way you explain your thoughts on this, but I can't agree with a lot of it. Most of the hatred of Muslims isn't because of any real valid reasoning. Most of it is hatred from ignorance, egged on by people who have a motive for increasing the fear and hatred. Yeah, its true there are Muslims who come to this country and do not assimilate very well. There are also many Christian groups who expect special treatment and wouldn't really be considered normal everyday citizens. While the I don't have a problem with people having any specific opinion, even if it is based upon erronious beliefs or just pure bigotry, I do have a problem when actions are taken on those mistaken beliefs...such as the example of the teens firing off shotguns near a mosque because they believed Muslims drank blood. It comes back to personal responsibility. A person has a right to believe any damn thing they want. They do NOT have a right to to take actions on those personal beliefs without consequence. If a person believes all Muslims are evil, fine. I think its ignorant, but hey, whatever. Start shouting it to all the world or taking action upon that mistaken belief then that same person gets to reap the consequences, from being called an idiot for the former to jail time for the latter.


 

I'm glad you actually understand what he said because I couldn't piece together the sentences to actually make out what was meant. I did read and understand the last part about wars not being a bad thing and being a good thing to sort out arguments. Now I'm sorry what that's a red rag to a bull to me I'm afraid.

I went away, counted to ten, made a cuppa and still I find myself angry that anyone could imagine war is a good thing. The suffering of innocent people, the destruction, the death and injury caused by wars is never good, there are no good consquences of wars even when against someone like Hitler and the Nazis. Wars should be avoided at all costs, the reality is they aren't but that doesn't make it a good thing. No war is good, ever.


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## Omar B (Sep 30, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> I*'m glad you actually understand what he said because I couldn't piece together the sentences to actually make out what was meant.* I did read and understand the last part about wars not being a bad thing and being a good thing to sort out arguments. Now I'm sorry what that's a red rag to a bull to me I'm afraid.
> 
> I went away, counted to ten, made a cuppa and still I find myself angry that anyone could imagine war is a good thing. The suffering of innocent people, the destruction, the death and injury caused by wars is never good, there are no good consquences of wars even when against someone like Hitler and the Nazis. Wars should be avoided at all costs, the reality is they aren't but that doesn't make it a good thing. No war is good, ever.



Yeah, I have a hard time slogging through the bad grammar and half formed ideas too.


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## Tez3 (Sep 30, 2010)

Omar B said:


> Yeah, I have a hard time slogging through the bad grammar and half formed ideas too.


 

For reasons I'm not going into yet again, it's on other bits of MT, I'm not in the mood to be particularly sympathetic towards anyone expressing the idea that war is good. 
The bad grammar made the points made seem nonsense, they may well make sense but not in the manner they were expressed in. it stops discussion stone dead when we can't understand the points.


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## Ramirez (Sep 30, 2010)

bribrius said:


> it is opposite in practice. our military isn't over there to kill the religion but people. The religion is a bi-product. If one believes taliban ways of cutting off fingers and stoning people for adultry (based on their religion) then i suppose we are killing them and attempting to change them for both who they are and what they practice.
> 
> There is a anti-american sentiment among many muslims that can't be denied. i could post various videos of "down with america, kill america, the end to the heathen" type crap but why bother. It has come down to we either change them over there for the sake of diminishing a threat and gaining some middle east control or we kill them. This is of course, not all muslims. But a element within that can't be denied. some of that element comes with them to the u.s. Not all muslims in the u.s. are eager to assimiliate into u.s. culture, but rather expect the u.s. culture to work around them. This has been seen in propositions in school systems for separate curriculum, seperate rooms, praying rooms, different schedules. similiar problems in the work place with prayer or holiday or whatever the person does for religious practice. Right to the point of denying christmas trees. I know someone who is in social services who told me they are having a drastic increase in religious immigrants collecting services. questionable whether they want to work, or can work and get along.
> 
> ...


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## Fiendlover (Sep 30, 2010)

Stac3y said:


> I got 9 out of 10 right, as well; I didn't know the main religion of Indonesia.


 
Same here.


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## bribrius (Sep 30, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> I'm glad you actually understand what he said because I couldn't piece together the sentences to actually make out what was meant. I did read and understand the last part about wars not being a bad thing and being a good thing to sort out arguments. Now I'm sorry what that's a red rag to a bull to me I'm afraid.
> 
> I went away, counted to ten, made a cuppa and still I find myself angry that anyone could imagine war is a good thing. The suffering of innocent people, the destruction, the death and injury caused by wars is never good, there are no good consquences of wars even when against someone like Hitler and the Nazis. Wars should be avoided at all costs, the reality is they aren't but that doesn't make it a good thing. No war is good, ever.


 
may i suggest a book "the father of us all"





 
http://www.amazon.com/Father-Us-All-History-Ancient/dp/1608191656


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## Tez3 (Sep 30, 2010)

bribrius said:


> may i suggest a book "the father of us all"


 
No, you may not.


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## Omar B (Sep 30, 2010)

This thread is still about religious ignorance right?


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## bribrius (Sep 30, 2010)

Omar B said:


> This thread is still about religious ignorance right?


 of course

http://stuffucanuse.com/bombing_commentry/muslims_hate_the_west.htm


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## Tez3 (Sep 30, 2010)

bribrius said:


> of course
> 
> http://stuffucanuse.com/bombing_commentry/muslims_hate_the_west.htm


 
Off topic.


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## Omar B (Sep 30, 2010)

bribrius said:


> of course
> 
> http://stuffucanuse.com/bombing_commentry/muslims_hate_the_west.htm



I guess you think this is a Muslim thread rather than a thread on religious ignorance.  Haveing a hard time following a line of reasoning?  I would advise you not to post drunk or high.


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## David43515 (Sep 30, 2010)

I liked what Omar said about his growing up in a home with 2 religions making him feel that there isn`t always one right answer. (Is that an accurate paraphrase of what you were getting at?) 

I was raised in one religion, became inactive as I grew older, and then converted to the religion I practice now.  Like a few people have suggested, I believed I`d found the right set of answers to life`s problems....or at least a way to find the answers. 

But that never closed me off to hearing out other ideas. We all face the same basic questions, maybe not at the same time. Someone else may have found different answers based on thier faith, or no faith at all. I figure I lose nothing by asking them what those answers are, whether I agree or not. Learning what other people think and believe doesn`t just help me understand them better, it helps me understand myself better. How many times have you heard something new and said to yourself "I never thought of it like that"? Or more importantly , how many times have you heard something that made you think about an issue for the very first time? One thing I think most religious and nonreligious people can agree on is that God gave me a brain so I could use it. It`d be a shame to let it sit and gather dust.


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## Empty Hands (Sep 30, 2010)

Omar B said:


>



CREEPY MAKE IT STOP MAKE IT STOP MAKE IT STOP!!!!!!!!  *collapses sobbing in the corner*


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## David43515 (Sep 30, 2010)

Omar B said:


> I guess you think this is a Muslim thread rather than a thread on religious ignorance. Haveing a hard time following a line of reasoning? I would advise you not to post drunk or high.


 

Like you said, maybe he`s 12. It takes a little maturity to realize you can dislike a person because of thier actions without disliking everyone that looks like them.

Just like it takes maturity to realize that everyone else is talking about someting different than you are. You`d think he`d take the hint.


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## Omar B (Sep 30, 2010)

David43515 said:


> I liked what Omar said about his growing up in a home with 2 religions making him feel that there isn`t always one right answer. (Is that an accurate paraphrase of what you were getting at?)
> 
> I was raised in one religion, became inactive as I grew older, and then converted to the religion I practice now.  Like a few people have suggested, I believed I`d found the right set of answers to life`s problems....or at least a way to find the answers.
> 
> But that never closed me off to hearing out other ideas. We all face the same basic questions, maybe not at the same time. Someone else may have found different answers based on thier faith, or no faith at all. I figure I lose nothing by asking them what those answers are, whether I agree or not. Learning what other people think and believe doesn`t just help me understand them better, it helps me understand myself better. How many times have you heard something new and said to yourself "I never thought of it like that"? Or more importantly , how many times have you heard something that made you think about an issue for the very first time? One thing I think most religious and nonreligious people can agree on is that God gave me a brain so I could use it. It`d be a shame to let it sit and gather dust.



You are correct in your paraphrase.  I also see not parallels but almost a synchronicity with your situation moving from one to another.  I've sure it was not a snap decision and I'm sure you looked in other directions too and in so doing learned quite a bit.


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## bribrius (Sep 30, 2010)

David43515 said:


> Like you said, maybe he`s 12. It takes a little maturity to realize you can dislike a person because of thier actions without disliking everyone that looks like them.
> 
> Just like it takes maturity to realize that everyone else is talking about someting different than you are. You`d think he`d take the hint.


 
if you read the article it does have religious ignorance in it.

why limit the thread to a particuliar type of religious ignorance? It is rampant.

"It takes a little maturity to realize you can dislike a person because of their actions without disliking everyone that looks like them."

eh, really no reason to even respond to this........sounds like trolling to me.

wish i was twelve again.


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## Tez3 (Oct 1, 2010)

Bribrius, what martial arts do you train in? what's your connection to the martial arts? I ask because on your profile where it asks what style etc you have put N/A.

It seems, quite frankly, that you have come on here to troll, you have posted up on threads what we could call inapproriate comments or links but many would say you were trolling. You seem to want to derail threads off in a way that seems to be anti Muslim. You also ignore comments made to you and go off at a tangent in a way designed to derail the thread. 

I think that while you may not be 12 you are certainly acting in a way that's childish and seem to derive some amusement from decent people discussing issues which for many are serious. People here are intelligent thoughtful and tolerant martial artists. What are you?


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## Cirdan (Oct 1, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> I went away, counted to ten, made a cuppa and still I find myself angry that anyone could imagine war is a good thing. The suffering of innocent people, the destruction, the death and injury caused by wars is never good, there are no good consquences of wars even when against someone like Hitler and the Nazis. Wars should be avoided at all costs, the reality is they aren't but that doesn't make it a good thing. No war is good, ever.


 
As much as I would want to agree with you Tez, the absence of war does not automatically mean there is peace. Regrettably, wars are somtimes neccecary or the lesser of two evils.


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## Cirdan (Oct 1, 2010)

bribrius said:


> wish i was twelve again.


 
So you would rather be





instead of..


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## Tez3 (Oct 1, 2010)

Cirdan said:


> As much as I would want to agree with you Tez, the absence of war does not automatically mean there is peace. Regrettably, wars are somtimes neccecary or the lesser of two evils.


 
I don't disagree with you at all, my annoyance was that the poster thought war was a *good thing*. Wars may be necessary or unavoidable but they are never a good thing.


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## Empty Hands (Oct 1, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> People here are intelligent thoughtful and tolerant martial artists.



I take exception to that!  I'm neither intelligent, thoughtful, nor tolerant!


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## Cirdan (Oct 1, 2010)

Empty Hands said:


> I'm neither intelligent, thoughtful, nor tolerant!


 
We don`t take _kindly_ to your type `round ere!


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## MJS (Oct 1, 2010)

*ADMIN NOTE*

*Please return to the main topic.  The last 2 pages have nothing to do with the OP.*

*MJS
MT Asst Admin*


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## Blade96 (Oct 1, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> No on said you have to like anything at all but remaining ignorant of the world and people around you is well, plain ignorant. It's not a matter of liking at all, it's a matter of education and knowledge. if you have enemies or people wanting to destroy your way of life all the more important that you understand them. Understanding is everything, knowledge is power. Stumbling around in the dark is a miserable way to exist.



Oy, i hate that, when people only learn about one or two little narrow topics and ignore the rest

There's so much to learn! I read a lot therefore I can have a conversation about a lot of different things. Come on, people!



Tez3 said:


> I don't disagree with you at all, my annoyance was that the poster thought war was a *good thing*. Wars may be necessary or unavoidable but they are never a good thing.



Absolutely. There is nothing glorious about war.


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## CanuckMA (Oct 3, 2010)

bribrius said:


> But a element within that can't be denied. some of that element comes with them to the u.s. Not all muslims in the u.s. are eager to assimiliate into u.s. culture, but rather expect the u.s. culture to work around them. This has been seen in propositions in school systems for separate curriculum, seperate rooms, praying rooms, different schedules. similiar problems in the work place with prayer or holiday or whatever the person does for religious practice. Right to the point of denying christmas trees.


 

Where that argument falls apart, is that *I* could be included in that statement.


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## Ray (Oct 3, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> Wars may be necessary or unavoidable but they are never a good thing.


While I also agree that wars are not good, I am forced to consider that it is an opinion based on my cultural upbringing and totally is nothing more than an opinion.


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