# Chest up vs sunken chest



## DanT (Feb 21, 2017)

Do you guys practice a chest up (erect spine, back straight) posture when fighting or practicing or do you use a sunken chest (hunched shoulders)?


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## Danny T (Feb 21, 2017)

Back straight, shoulders down but not hunched, chest soft.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 21, 2017)

DanT said:


> do you use a sunken chest (hunched shoulders)?


Turtle style?


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## KPM (Feb 22, 2017)

Avoid the dreaded "Wing Chun Slouch"!!!!


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## marques (Feb 22, 2017)

A bit sunken, relaxed.


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## wingerjim (Feb 22, 2017)

DanT said:


> Do you guys practice a chest up (erect spine, back straight) posture when fighting or practicing or do you use a sunken chest (hunched shoulders)?


The former for sure. The spine as I have been taught is the vertical axis one should focus on, like the trunk of a tree, the straighter the stronger. Any bending in any direction can first cause bad form and bad positioning as well and moving the center of gravity making your legs compensate and weaken in the process.


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## KPM (Feb 22, 2017)

KPM said:


> Avoid the dreaded "Wing Chun Slouch"!!!!




I've written on this before, but it is worth repeating.  The "Wing Chun Slouch" can be a problem in some schools.  This is poor posture and bad for your health.  We've  all seen it....those guys that are all hunched over with a big curve in their mid-back.  You even see this  in "Masters" that should know better!  Sam Kwok has this...partly because he is so tall. Moy Yat had this to some extent as well.  I think this is often brought about by two things.  First is the whole idea that you have to tilt your pelvis forward to lock your upper body and lower body together as one unit.  So guys will thrust their pelvis forward, which leads to the upper body being tilted backwards.  So to compensate and keep their balance they will curve the mid-back and "hunch" forward.  The other thing that causes this is the idea that to defend the centerline you have to have your arms on the centerline.  So guys will try and pull their elbows inward to get them as close to the centerline as they can.  This really rounds off the shoulders and results in a "hunch."   Just take a look at Chi Sau footage on youtube and you will see this.....guys all hunched forward in the "Wing Chun Slouch."  And the strange this is, you can see guys all from the same school and same teacher....some will be hunched over in poor posture and some won't! 

This kind of posture is very similar to the poor posture that results from sitting in front of a computer screen all day without a good ergonomic set up.  It can lead to back pain, neck pain, headaches, shoulder problems, etc.


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## hoshin1600 (Feb 22, 2017)

I don't do wing Chun but a style similar.  I guess I will be the odd answer and say I curve the spine.  For me it's not a bad habit, it's on purpose. I am not sure how much curve you guys are talking about so I can't say if I am as drastic.  Personally I am not concerned with the trappings of a style of what is "right" or wrong. I only care about what logically works under the duress of real combat. The only "health " issue I have is from rolling and tucking my hips under. I find for me it puts pressure on my sciatica nerve. So I have eased up on the tension there.


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## drop bear (Feb 22, 2017)

You hunch forwards in boxing to protect your head


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## KPM (Feb 22, 2017)

Wing Chun Slouch:


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## KPM (Feb 22, 2017)

Wing Chun Slouch:


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## KPM (Feb 22, 2017)

Bruce is guilty of it here:






But fixed it here:


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## KPM (Feb 22, 2017)

Here is Ip Man doing it when he was in his final days.  Maybe this is where people got the idea that it is actually a good thing?


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## dudewingchun (Feb 22, 2017)

I use my laptop too much so I naturally put my head to far forward which is no good. Id say modern times has ruined all of our kung fu posture lol


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## dudewingchun (Feb 22, 2017)

KPM said:


> I've written on this before, but it is worth repeating.  The "Wing Chun Slouch" can be a problem in some schools.  This is poor posture and bad for your health.  We've  all seen it....those guys that are all hunched over with a big curve in their mid-back.  You even see this  in "Masters" that should know better!  Sam Kwok has this...partly because he is so tall. Moy Yat had this to some extent as well.  I think this is often brought about by two things.  First is the whole idea that you have to tilt your pelvis forward to lock your upper body and lower body together as one unit.  So guys will thrust their pelvis forward, which leads to the upper body being tilted backwards.  So to compensate and keep their balance they will curve the mid-back and "hunch" forward.  The other thing that causes this is the idea that to defend the centerline you have to have your arms on the centerline.  So guys will try and pull their elbows inward to get them as close to the centerline as they can.  This really rounds off the shoulders and results in a "hunch."   Just take a look at Chi Sau footage on youtube and you will see this.....guys all hunched forward in the "Wing Chun Slouch."  And the strange this is, you can see guys all from the same school and same teacher....some will be hunched over in poor posture and some won't!
> 
> This kind of posture is very similar to the poor posture that results from sitting in front of a computer screen all day without a good ergonomic set up.  It can lead to back pain, neck pain, headaches, shoulder problems, etc.



Any resources for good mobility exercises? I have that problem.


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## geezer (Feb 22, 2017)

KPM said:


> Wing Chun Slouch:




Yip Chun has a pretty straight back here. Samuel Kwok is slouching a bit, but then being so much taller might have something to do with it. I took a seminar with him last year and Sifu Kwok seemed to have pretty straight posture then.

Sometimes I think people assume a more round-shouldered position when doing Chi-Sau in an effort to cover centerline. I personally don't believe that's helpful.


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## Juany118 (Feb 22, 2017)

KPM said:


> I've written on this before, but it is worth repeating.  The "Wing Chun Slouch" can be a problem in some schools.  This is poor posture and bad for your health.  We've  all seen it....those guys that are all hunched over with a big curve in their mid-back.  You even see this  in "Masters" that should know better!  Sam Kwok has this...partly because he is so tall. Moy Yat had this to some extent as well.  I think this is often brought about by two things.  First is the whole idea that you have to tilt your pelvis forward to lock your upper body and lower body together as one unit.  So guys will thrust their pelvis forward, which leads to the upper body being tilted backwards.  So to compensate and keep their balance they will curve the mid-back and "hunch" forward.  The other thing that causes this is the idea that to defend the centerline you have to have your arms on the centerline.  So guys will try and pull their elbows inward to get them as close to the centerline as they can.  This really rounds off the shoulders and results in a "hunch."   Just take a look at Chi Sau footage on youtube and you will see this.....guys all hunched forward in the "Wing Chun Slouch."  And the strange this is, you can see guys all from the same school and same teacher....some will be hunched over in poor posture and some won't!
> 
> This kind of posture is very similar to the poor posture that results from sitting in front of a computer screen all day without a good ergonomic set up.  It can lead to back pain, neck pain, headaches, shoulder problems, etc.




Regarding the alignment of the spine, i think some people exaggerate it.  When I am helping one of the new students I sometimes describe it as "tucking in the tailbone" vs a "pelvic tilt" because some students, when they hear the later, thin k "pelvic thrust" like they are doing the "Time Warp"


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## anerlich (Feb 22, 2017)

This is not a problem unique to Wing Chun. Jiu Jitsu with all the guard work can lead to kyphosis, the "forward head" posture. The shoulders tend to rotate inwards and the upper back rounds. Poor posture sitting at a desk can do it to you as well.

Do Jiu Jitsu (or, it would seem, Wing Chun) and a desk job and it seems almost guaranteed.

My instructor has always encouraged a straight back in solo practice and drilling. Sparring requires the spinal alignment to be more dynamic and flexible, though always supporting proper structure and base.

Other styles intentionally exaggerate the rounded back and hollow chest, ostensibly to allow protection of the centreline and vital organs. Bit of a tradeoff with effective posture for power delivery and long term health IMO. There is a difference between doing something intentionally and doing it unconsciously.

Boxing (and wrestling) does teach hunching the shoulders, but they also teach you to tuck the chin, which stops the worst form of kyphosis, head forward and chin jutting out. A posture which will get you knocked out, but one I see too often from Wing Chun students trying to "get over" their sparmate's hands.

No one said any of this stuff was necessarily ideal for your health.



dudewingchun said:


> Any resources for good mobility exercises? I have that problem.



Steve Maxwell makes exercises to "undo" kyphosis a cornerstone of many of his seminars and some of his videos. The Official Steve Maxwell Website. In a nutshell:

Yoga sphinx posture with head nods and turns. Also Camel posture and upward/downward dog, or "Hindu" pushups (if you do them with strict form). The sphinx posture is not difficult and you can lie on the floor and watch TV or fiddle with your smartphone or laptop from there for extended periods.


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## anerlich (Feb 22, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> Regarding the alignment of the spine, i think some people exaggerate it.  When I am helping one of the new students I sometimes describe it as "tucking in the tailbone" vs a "pelvic tilt" because some students, when they hear the later, thin k "pelvic thrust" like they are doing the "Time Warp"



It seems whatever you tell many beginners about stance, they find a way to exaggerate it and make it immobile, tense and uncomfortable. Like if it doesn't hurt, they are not really training. I'm continually telling students to relax, it's meant to be a stance you can move out of, one comfortable enough to stay in all day.

Per Musashi - Make your everyday stance your fighting stance, and your fighting stance your everyday stance. (Or was it the other way round? )


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## KPM (Feb 23, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> Regarding the alignment of the spine, i think some people exaggerate it.  When I am helping one of the new students I sometimes describe it as "tucking in the tailbone" vs a "pelvic tilt" because some students, when they hear the later, thin k "pelvic thrust" like they are doing the "Time Warp"



I tell students to stand straight and naturally and don't "stick the butt out."  The whole idea of "locking in" the pelvis is wrong IMHO.  It should "float" in order to generate good "whipping" power up the spine.


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## Juany118 (Feb 23, 2017)

KPM said:


> I tell students to stand straight and naturally and don't "stick the butt out."  The whole idea of "locking in" the pelvis is wrong IMHO.  It should "float" in order to generate good "whipping" power up the spine.


If you are properly relaxed though it's not locked.  Ultimately it's no different than just keeping you back straight or any other portion of any stance.  I think "don't stick your but out" vs "tuck in the tail bone" may just be a matter of semantics. If you tuck the tailbone in correctly you can't even really see it's been done unless you are really looking for it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 23, 2017)

dudewingchun said:


> I use my laptop too much so I naturally put my head to far forward which is no good. Id say modern times has ruined all of our kung fu posture lol


And that is obviously not exclusive to kung fu. I catch myself in a "gamer's slouch" doing NGA. I have pictures of me doing it. I have a wife who occasionally tells me I'm doing it. I should probably stop doing it.


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## Vajramusti (Feb 23, 2017)

geezer said:


> Yip Chun has a pretty straight back here. Samuel Kwok is slouching a bit, but then being so much taller might have something to do with it. I took a seminar with him last year and Sifu Kwok seemed to have pretty straight posture then.
> 
> Sometimes I think people assume a more round-shouldered position when doing Chi-Sau in an effort to cover centerline. I personally don't believe that's helpful.


---------------------------------------------------------
Ability to observe well varies and video watching can result in many mistaken inferences. Picture of Bruce Lee's static chisao pose
with ip man has his shoulders wrongly up.


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## JR 137 (Feb 24, 2017)

I use a boxing stance - round my shoulders a little bit and tuck my chin.  Why?

Pros -
I present a harder target to hit
I can generate more punching/hand striking power

Cons -
I can't kick nearly as well
* I'm not a good kicker in any stance I take, so why fight nature?  Being 5'8 with a 29" inseam is going to keep me from being a prolific head kicker no matter what I do.  I refused to believe this when I was in my 20s; at 40 I've moved on.  I've adapted my stance and kicking mechanics to be able to roundhouse thighs quite well.


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## drop bear (Feb 24, 2017)

dudewingchun said:


> Any resources for good mobility exercises? I have that problem.



Yoga.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 24, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Yoga.


DB is spot on with this. Pick a variety that suits your needs. I can't hold poses well - I'm too inflexible to relax into many of them - so I do a Vinyasa flow, which is more dynamic. I might improve if I did a style that held poses, but I'd be really sore for a while and unable to keep up with my MA.


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## drop bear (Feb 24, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> DB is spot on with this. Pick a variety that suits your needs. I can't hold poses well - I'm too inflexible to relax into many of them - so I do a Vinyasa flow, which is more dynamic. I might improve if I did a style that held poses, but I'd be really sore for a while and unable to keep up with my MA.



It is just a war for me.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 24, 2017)

drop bear said:


> It is just a war for me.


In my class, I stand right next to a woman who is probably 10 years older than me. She is more flexible than the instructor, so Jennifer and I (both up front and center, usually) are the opposite ends of most poses.


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## KangTsai (Feb 25, 2017)

My stance is usually one shoulder tucked, and the other open. Spine not bent - my leveling is all in the legs. Elbows always glued to sides, which is inspired by taking so many body kicks. As for unhealthy posture, I fixed all of that up before it could start to take advantage of me later in life.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 26, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I can't hold poses well ...


If you can hold this posture daily, when you get old, you won't have hunched back. IMO, this is the most important static posture in all MA training.


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## KangTsai (Feb 26, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you can hold this posture daily, when you get old, you won't have hunched back. IMO, this is the most important static posture in all MA training.


I guess just make sure that doesn't promote some more of that good old anterior pelvic tilt c:


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## KPM (Feb 26, 2017)

Here's another one I've posted before.  Also has some things on "corrective" exercises:


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 26, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you can hold this posture daily, when you get old, you won't have hunched back. IMO, this is the most important static posture in all MA training.


That's something I do on my own, but not a pose we use in yoga.


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## drop bear (Feb 26, 2017)




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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 26, 2017)

drop bear said:


>


That looks like a pose I need to add to my practice. The low lunge is one I already use (very tight hip flexors), and the added bit of a back bend seems a good idea.


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