# round house kick  vs front kick



## Manny (Dec 12, 2011)

Okey, for your point of view wich kick is stronger, the roundhouse kick or the front kick, aimed to the gut. Some times I just think a well placed round kick to the stomach is better than a front kick however let me tell you the front kick is better suited for a streetfight.

Manny


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 12, 2011)

Manny said:


> Okey, for your point of view wich kick is stronger, the roundhouse kick or the front kick, aimed to the gut. Some times I just think a well placed round kick to the stomach is better than a front kick however let me tell you the front kick is better suited for a streetfight.
> 
> Manny


I have to disagree. Front kicks are generally more penetrating, but I would say, if done safely, the targets for a roundhouse kick still present themselves with as much or more frequency than the targets for a front kick.
Sean


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## MaxiMe (Dec 12, 2011)

Also you might want to take into account who is throwing the kick. I tend to think my rounds have more power than my fronts. Just to the way my body is built I guess.


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## Bill Mattocks (Dec 12, 2011)

Side kick.


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## ATC (Dec 12, 2011)

Round or turn kick with full hip turn and plant for pivot will out power a front kick everytime. Now if you can't perform a correct turn kick then there is no power whatsoever.


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## ralphmcpherson (Dec 12, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Side kick.


I agree. The only times I have ever kicked someone and had them go flying backwards and land in a heap has been with a sidekick, particularly off the front leg (and Im quite skinny, without much weight behind me). From my own personal experience however, I have found sidekick to be a kick that not many people can do very well, everyone can do them but with perfect technique they are a devastating kick.


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 12, 2011)

ATC said:


> Round or turn kick with full hip turn and plant for pivot will out power a front kick everytime. Now if you can't perform a correct turn kick then there is no power whatsoever.


Understand that if your body is in motion and you pass the point of no return with a font ball kick to the bladder, there is plenty of power, and you are pinpointing with a smaller weapon, so, I wonder, with all the power lost through counter balancing, and a larger surface area on the weapon with a round house, if the target is more damaged in the end.
Sean


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## granfire (Dec 12, 2011)

I don't think they compare much:

A front kick is a straight line motion. You can get it in under the guard or when the target is not positioned to hit it with a round.

Thew round might have more power. But it comes in from the side. So while it is a fantastic kick again, it works best when the target is set up accordingly.

(Sidekick, now that one is neat....I think my short ribs still scream from collecting a couple of those....my instructor said he loves to use one to back an opponent up, and I believe it.)


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## Cyriacus (Dec 12, 2011)

I prefer Front Kicks. The Roundhouse Kick is a larger striking surface, and makes a louder noise, but the sheer driving force in a Front Kick may not make a loud noise, but it hits hard. I assure You.


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## jedtx88 (Dec 13, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> I prefer Front Kicks. The Roundhouse Kick is a larger striking surface, and makes a louder noise, but the sheer driving force in a Front Kick may not make a loud noise, but it hits hard. I assure You.



What if you use the ball of your foot instead of the instep for a roundhouse?


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## Cyriacus (Dec 13, 2011)

jedtx88 said:


> What if you use the ball of your foot instead of the instep for a roundhouse?


That, My Good Man, is Turning Kick.
Lets not get too misconstrewed here. Being a KKW WTF Practitioner (As in, the OP is a KKW WTF Practitioner), Im pretty sure the OP was referring to the KKW WTF TKD Roundhouse with the Instep.
If We go with every definition of Roundhouse, We should throw in Twisting Kick, Hook Kick, Spinning Heel Kick, Inner and Outer Crescent Kick, and probably one or two more I cant think of offhand.

Turning Kick, or Turn Kick in KKW WTF TKD, but Turning in most others, is indeed a more Powerful Kick, however, My Answer is unchanged, since Turning Kick requires You to be at the right angle. Front Kick can be conducted from any angle at any time. As can an Instep Kick, albeit to a lesser extent.

Good First Post, Buddy.
If You Learn anything on here, Itll be Retrospect of Interpretation.
For example, We could all just say that Front Kick, Roundhouse Kick, and Turning Kick could all be thrown toward the Legs at any time at any angle. Thats True. But so can Side Kick, Back Kick, Hook Kick, and pretty much any Kick. Which I believe is why the OP specified Aiming for the Gut.

And incase Youre unaware, though if You are, for any Readers who arent; Roundhouse is not the name of the Kick, so much as the name of what it does. House refers to a Frontal Guard, defending the Front of Your Body. Thusly, a Round House is a Strike, Punch Kick Elbow Knee Forearm or whatever, which goes Around the House. It just means it comes in from the side. Theres Roundhouse Punch for example.


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## Earl Weiss (Dec 13, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> And incase Youre unaware, though if You are, for any Readers who arent; Roundhouse is not the name of the Kick, so much as the name of what it does. House refers to a Frontal Guard, defending the Front of Your Body. Thusly, a Round House is a Strike, Punch Kick Elbow Knee Forearm or whatever, which goes Around the House. It just means it comes in from the side. Theres Roundhouse Punch for example.



First - good point of info.  Frontal guard = "House" so the Roundhouse punch got the name from going "around the House"
Second - Different systems call different kicks different things and sometimes it's just the english translation, sometimes iteral, sometimes not.  So, it's good you defined it from a KKW standpoint.
Third - Most powerful may be different depending on what you are measuring. Is it a pushing force or a breaking force?  In power breaking, as per the above posters, the sidekick typicaly destroys the most wood.  I have seen a lot of wood smashed with a ball of the foot turning kick and a few biological anomlies smash 5 real 1x12s (Not the BS Boards some use with an instep turning kick. However, typicaly the front kick with the ball of the foot will destroy more wood than the roundhouse or turning. 
4th - Most owerful is the one tha gets the job done in the given situation.


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## Bill Mattocks (Dec 13, 2011)

jedtx88 said:


> What if you use the ball of your foot instead of the instep for a roundhouse?



Same basic kick.  We practice in the dojo using heavy bags and the instep, but we also practice using the ball of the foot.  In the street, since you're likely to be wearing shoes, it would be the toes, since it's hard to point the toes up inside shoes and have the shoes bend to match your foot orientation.  Kicking with the instep is designed to move someone, for example, to place them where you want them for a followup.  Kicking with the instep is designed to penetrate and damage.


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## Grenadier (Dec 13, 2011)

The art of throwing a front kick seems to have been lost over the last couple of decades.  

A good front kick should be driving forward, penetrating, and using the back leg to provide additional power to the front kick.  With the whole body's momentum going forward, combined with a strong snapping motion of the kicking leg, a front kick will deliver more power than a round or side kick.  

The main problem, is that a LOT of practitioners do not drive their bodies forward when throwing that front kick, that they're standing in place, and solely relying on the momentum generated by the kicking leg.  For that matter, a lot of practitioners aren't even driving their front kicks forward, and instead letting their kicks float upwards.


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## Cyriacus (Dec 13, 2011)

Grenadier said:


> The art of throwing a front kick seems to have been lost over the last couple of decades.
> 
> A good front kick should be driving forward, penetrating, and using the back leg to provide additional power to the front kick.  With the whole body's momentum going forward, combined with a strong snapping motion of the kicking leg, a front kick will deliver more power than a round or side kick.
> 
> The main problem, is that a LOT of practitioners do not drive their bodies forward when throwing that front kick, that they're standing in place, and solely relying on the momentum generated by the kicking leg.  For that matter, a lot of practitioners aren't even driving their front kicks forward, and instead letting their kicks float upwards.


Yep.
A Front Kick isnt a pick up > snap out like alot of People make it.
I could go further into detail, but were both on the same page, and itd be unnecessary.


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## oftheherd1 (Dec 13, 2011)

Interesting to learn of different names for kicks.  I only studied TKD breifly over 40 years ago.  I think we referred to a roundhouse kick as a kick with the back leg, with the ball of the foot (I don't recall any instep kicks like we do in the Hapkido I studied), to the head, passing any attempted blocks.  It was an extremely powerful kick.  As we learned it, it should be more powerful than a side kick.  The problem was being with the back foot, it took longer to get there, and was therefore more easily evaded.  All kicks should be powerful, but certainly some will be more so than others.  Some will leave the kicker more exposd than others, especially higher kicks.

Again, interesting responses to an interesting question.  Thanks all.


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## StudentCarl (Dec 13, 2011)

Paraphrasing from the firearm world: first rule of gunfighting is have a gun. Next is that bullet placement matters more than bullet size. Bottom line is that the best kick is the one you can get on target, on time, with power. Otherwise you're just waving your leg waiting to get hurt. If you hit anybody low in the gut with a good kick, you'll back 'em up at least, and you may put 'em down. Position and angle of kicker and opponent matter a lot in kick selection, as does the surface you're standing on. I'm not willing to take any kick low in the gut if I can help it.


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## MaxiMe (Dec 13, 2011)

Interesting thread.
I always thought the weapon used depended on the target. In the case of a round kick soft tissue (bladder,kidney, gut, etc) you would use the ball of foot. Hhard surface (leg, head) you would use the instep (top of foot). Ball would give you more penetration into the softer tissue. Instep would give you more area to strike with specially if you are closer in (shin to the leg or jaw).
"Gun control is being able to hit your target"


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## Bill Mattocks (Dec 13, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> Yep.
> A Front Kick isnt a pick up > snap out like alot of People make it.
> I could go further into detail, but were both on the same page, and itd be unnecessary.



Ours (Isshin-Ryu) is a snap kick intended (as I am taught) to collapse the pelvic bone; thus it penetrates and it not intended to lightly brush the genitalia of the opponent.  The fact that the wedding tackle is damaged when the kick is thrown properly is simply incidental; it is not the target, it's just in the way of the target.  There are many people, including those who are drunk or stoned, who can withstand a solid kick to the snarglies.  Not many can continue to walk if the pelvic bone snaps.  At least, this is how we are taught to deliver the _mae geri_.  We also have a _mae konate_, which is a heel thrust kick.  Looks similar to some, but it is delivered with the heel rather than the ball of the foot, and it is intended more as a _'get away from me'_ strike (again, as I understand it).  It is delivered at or above the obi.


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## Bill Mattocks (Dec 13, 2011)

MaxiMe said:


> Interesting thread.
> I always thought the weapon used depended on the target. In the case of a round kick soft tissue (bladder,kidney, gut, etc) you would use the ball of foot. Hhard surface (leg, head) you would use the instep (top of foot). Ball would give you more penetration into the softer tissue. Instep would give you more area to strike with specially if you are closer in (shin to the leg or jaw).
> "Gun control is being able to hit your target"



When we use the instep round house kick, we sometimes 'dead leg' it, meaning we do not retract or rechamber it, but follow through.  When applied in this manner, the purpose is to relocate the opponent to where you want them.  A corralling move, so to speak.  When thrown like that, we put all our momentum and weight into it and follow through; the goal being our kicking leg ends up leading as opposed to being retracted back to the trailing position from where it was thrown.  Not useful against a much larger opponent, but for someone like me (for whom 'larger than me' is somewhat infrequent), putting all my weight and proper axial momentum into the kick means if I land it, my opponent is going for a ride.  Even if they 'catch'  the kick, the momentum and weight should mean their arm is pinned to their side anyway; catching it only prevents them from peeing their pants.

One kick not mentioned here which I consider very effective, but which I am not the master of, is the reverse or back kick.  When done right, I think it's a very very powerful kick, and it does not stand a lot of chance of being blocked or evaded unless you know your opponent and know his or her 'tell' when they're about to launch it.  I've seen it used with great effect as a 'walking away' kick, where the opponent seems to turn their back on you, but as you advance, you suddenly eat their foot directly in your midsection (or face) with huge power and speed.  Someone mentioned seeing people literally fly across the room from a side kick, and that's true, but I've been lifted off my feet by a reverse kick to the abdomen in our dojo; by someone whom I outweighed by over a hundred pounds.  And some shy away from it since it means turning your back to your opponent, but in reality, it's pretty safe, since you are leaning forward when you kick backwards, thus out of range, and you have your eye on the target, so it's not like you're blind to the opponent.  From that position, a spinning back-fist is a great follow up too.  That kick is something I intend to work on hard in the new year.


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## Cyriacus (Dec 13, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Ours (Isshin-Ryu) is a snap kick intended (as I am taught) to collapse the pelvic bone; thus it penetrates and it not intended to lightly brush the genitalia of the opponent.  The fact that the wedding tackle is damaged when the kick is thrown properly is simply incidental; it is not the target, it's just in the way of the target.  There are many people, including those who are drunk or stoned, who can withstand a solid kick to the snarglies.  Not many can continue to walk if the pelvic bone snaps.  At least, this is how we are taught to deliver the _mae geri_.  We also have a _mae konate_, which is a heel thrust kick.  Looks similar to some, but it is delivered with the heel rather than the ball of the foot, and it is intended more as a _'get away from me'_ strike (again, as I understand it).  It is delivered at or above the obi.


Of course it can be used that way - Its a matter of how You use it.
A Front Kick is by all means a Primary Kick, with the Ball of the Foot. Its just not used that way much these days.
Front Heel Kicks are great Pushes, but dont deliver much Impact Power.


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## MaxiMe (Dec 13, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> (for whom 'larger than me' is somewhat infrequent),
> by someone whom I outweighed by over a hundred pounds. And some shy away from it since it means turning your back to your opponent, but in reality, it's pretty safe, since you are  From that position, a spinning back-fist is a great follow up too. That kick is something I intend to work on hard in the new year.


1. Same here. Taller yup, larger not so much 
2. Have you been watching my daughter spar? (her signature move) 

3. Been working on that one myself. I think it's the one that needs the most of my attention ATM.


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## zDom (Dec 13, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> Of course it can be used that way - Its a matter of how You use it.
> A Front Kick is by all means a Primary Kick, with the Ball of the Foot. Its just not used that way much these days.
> Front Heel Kicks are great Pushes, but dont deliver much Impact Power.



A strike if thrown slow enough is a push. Any strike thrown fast enough &#8212; even front heel kicks &#8212; deliver plenty of impact power.

My front thrusting heel kick is trained on the heavy bag to fold the bag (just like I train my side kick, my round kick, etc.) not push it.

Some arts train the front kick with ball of the foot as push &#8212; isn't that what Muy Thai call their front kick? The push kick?

I am seeing a lot of people stating things in this thread as "facts" when they are specific to their schools. Especially terminology.


In Moo Sul Kwan, a roundhouse kick is a roundhouse kick whether using the instep or ball of the foot as a weapon, whether you use your
front leg or back leg.

But then, we differentiate the kick some people call a roundhouse that comes in at an upward 45 degree angle as a different kick: we call that
an "arc kick" (our roundhouse kicks come in with the foot following the knee on the same plane relative to the floor).

But I wouldn't presume to correct someone else's terminology. They call things what they call them; we call them what we call them.


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## Bill Mattocks (Dec 13, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> Of course it can be used that way - Its a matter of how You use it.
> A Front Kick is by all means a Primary Kick, with the Ball of the Foot. Its just not used that way much these days.
> Front Heel Kicks are great Pushes, but dont deliver much Impact Power.



It *can* deliver power, though.  You have to tilt the pelvis as you thrust it.  With the proper snapping motion to the hips, you get great penetration and power.  Not claiming I'm all that good at it (yet) but I have seen it used effectively.


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## mxav (Dec 13, 2011)

the round house is more telegraphed and disobeys the time homor principle of the straight line, not TKD's greatest technique


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## chrispillertkd (Dec 13, 2011)

mxav said:


> the round house is more telegraphed and disobeys the time homor principle of the straight line, not TKD's greatest technique



What it lacks in speed the roundhouse kick (or _turning kick_/ tolly chagi) makes up for in ... well, speed. A front kick will reach its target quicker because it takes a more direct route. A tolly chagi takes longer but will have a higher rate of speed when it does reach the target. Like a wheel on a bike, the outer edge rotates at a faster rate than the hub. You will get more power out of the tolly chagi, all things being equal, than the ap chabushigi (front kick). I've seen people throw tollyo chagis with pheonomeal speed off the back leg. Like any other technique, the more you practcie it the more likely you'll be able to use it. 

The real question is, what targets present themselves. This will determine what techniques you'll have to use.

Pax,

Chris


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## NSRTKD (Dec 13, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> Yep.
> A Front Kick isnt a pick up > snap out like alot of People make it.
> I could go further into detail, but were both on the same page, and itd be unnecessary.




I'm sorry to seem uneducated, but could you go into further detail about this? If it doesn't fit here pm me, if you don't mind... in the dojang I trained in (Note the past tense HA!) We did very little striking of actual targets. Our training was so focused on one-steps that there was never much time for striking bags and pads, and the only kicking we did often was in rank, kicking air. Is there a way to throw the kick with the proper pushing force from the supporting leg while kicking in the air, or is kicking a target a must? I will try this on the heavy bag I have downstairs... seems rather ridiculous that I'm a high green belt yet this is the first I've heard of using my supporting leg for force rather than a simple snap of the knee.


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## Grenadier (Dec 13, 2011)

naomisarah said:


> I'm sorry to seem uneducated, but could you go into further detail about this?
> 
> I will try this on the heavy bag I have downstairs... seems rather ridiculous that I'm a high green belt yet this is the first I've heard of using my supporting leg for force rather than a simple snap of the knee.



Think of it this way...  Which is going to do more damage?  A punch from a standing position, or a punch that is delivered the same way, but with you stepping forward?  

The punch that has forward momentum assisting it will have a lot more force, since you're using the muscles of the legs and hips to power it as well.  

The kick works exactly the same way.  It's the same kick penetrating forward, but with the back leg driving forward.  This way, you generate more power, penetrate more, and also close the gap when attacking.  

You can certainly practice this kick when kicking the air.  

Try it by starting from a standard forward stance (in Karate, we call it Zen Kutsu Dachi (Gunnun Sogi in Tae Kwon Do).  Kick from your back leg and step forward like you normally do.  

Now, have someone stand in front of you, and pull you forward by your belt while you kick.  The kick should be more powerful than your previous kick was.  

Now, duplicate this forward motion by driving off your back leg before you throw the kick.  This should be as powerful, maybe more powerful, than the assisted one you just did.  You can do this kind of kick at the air, or on a target.  

In the second and third case, you have forward momentum assisting you.  In the first case, you do not.  You're still snapping the kick back after it has reached its target in any case.


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## Cyriacus (Dec 13, 2011)

zDom said:


> A strike if thrown slow enough is a push. Any strike thrown fast enough  even front heel kicks  deliver plenty of impact power.
> 
> My front thrusting heel kick is trained on the heavy bag to fold the bag (just like I train my side kick, my round kick, etc.) not push it.
> 
> ...


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## puunui (Dec 13, 2011)

ATC said:


> Round or turn kick with full hip turn and plant for pivot will out power a front kick everytime. Now if you can't perform a correct turn kick then there is no power whatsoever.



I always smile when I read or hear about people who claim to be taekwondoin, but they don't say roundhouse is their bread and butter kick, which is powerful enough to drop anyone in their tracks, if done correctly at the correct time. The thing with roundhouse kick is that your opponent does not go flying backwards if you nail it; instead they just fold over and/or crumple where they are.


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## puunui (Dec 13, 2011)

granfire said:


> A front kick is a straight line motion.



So is a roundhouse kick.


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## Cyriacus (Dec 13, 2011)

puunui said:


> So is a roundhouse kick.


Ill combine asking and stating;

In the KKW WTF System, is a Roundhouse not a more Circular Version of the more Linear, Straight Line Round Kick, or are the two terms as interchangeable as theyre made out to be?


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## puunui (Dec 13, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> In the KKW WTF System, is a Roundhouse not a more Circular Version of the more Linear, Straight Line Round Kick, or are the two terms as interchangeable as theyre made out to be?



some people say roundhouse, others say round kick. both refer to the same kick, in my opinion, which is ap dollyo chagi in korean. And by the way, the term ap in ap dollyo chagi does not refer to the knee chamber on the kick, but rather it goes to the motion of the body, going or turning forward. This is in contrast to a spin hook kick or back kick, where the body turns backward.


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 13, 2011)

naomisarah said:


> I'm sorry to seem uneducated, but could you go into further detail about this? If it doesn't fit here pm me, if you don't mind... in the dojang I trained in (Note the past tense HA!) We did very little striking of actual targets. Our training was so focused on one-steps that there was never much time for striking bags and pads, and the only kicking we did often was in rank, kicking air. Is there a way to throw the kick with the proper pushing force from the supporting leg while kicking in the air, or is kicking a target a must? I will try this on the heavy bag I have downstairs... seems rather ridiculous that I'm a high green belt yet this is the first I've heard of using my supporting leg for force rather than a simple snap of the knee.


Pushing Force? Try pulling force to pushing Force.
Sean


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## WC_lun (Dec 14, 2011)

Manny said:


> Okey, for your point of view wich kick is stronger, the roundhouse kick or the front kick, aimed to the gut. Some times I just think a well placed round kick to the stomach is better than a front kick however let me tell you the front kick is better suited for a streetfight.
> 
> Manny



Wouldn't it be a case of of two different tools, to be used according to which is best for the situation?


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## Bill Mattocks (Dec 14, 2011)

Touch Of Death said:


> Pushing Force? Try pulling force to pushing Force.
> Sean



Yes, exactly.  Envision yourself reaching up with your arms, grasping attacker's arms under the bicep, and pulling him hard towards you, using your momentum to at the same time drive your foot into his abdomen in a heel push kick.  You'll be leaning slightly back, hips tilted forward, standing leg is bent slightly at the knee, kicking leg is thrown like a canon ball.  You can practice this with a partner, gently.


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 14, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Yes, exactly.  Envision yourself reaching up with your arms, grasping attacker's arms under the bicep, and pulling him hard towards you, using your momentum to at the same time drive your foot into his abdomen in a heel push kick.  You'll be leaning slightly back, hips tilted forward, standing leg is bent slightly at the knee, kicking leg is thrown like a canon ball.  You can practice this with a partner, gently.


I won't counterbalance if I can help it, but I'm with ya.


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## Bill Mattocks (Dec 14, 2011)

Touch Of Death said:


> I won't counterbalance if I can help it, but I'm with ya.



I'll grant you that I would not lean backwards if an opponent was rushing, but if they were reaching for you; say a barroom situation, that's a counter we practice in the dojo quite often.  Leaning back is not such a problem when you're locked into their triceps or the bottom of their elbows; they are holding you up and giving you the lever to kick them with.  Another kick that can be applied from that situation is to angle the foot slightly and apply it to the top of the opponent's hip on the side you are kicking with.  Balance point; beautiful response.  But not properly a heel thrust kick, and huge power isn't necessary.


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## NSRTKD (Dec 14, 2011)

Thank you SO MUCH to Cy, Bill Mattocks and TOD for the coaching on this. I can't even express how helpful that is!!! Seems silly to have advanced through the ranks without knowing how to properly _apply_ a front kick, though I can execute one "prettily" haha. This is one reason (of many) that I have halted training at my dojang. I have no interest in receiving drive-thru belts that I don't deserve just because I can demonstrate the material in the air.


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## Cyriacus (Dec 14, 2011)

naomisarah said:


> Thank you SO MUCH to Cy, Bill Mattocks and TOD for the coaching on this. I can't even express how helpful that is!!! Seems silly to have advanced through the ranks without knowing how to properly _apply_ a front kick, though I can execute one "prettily" haha. This is one reason (of many) that I have halted training at my dojang. I have no interest in receiving drive-thru belts that I don't deserve just because I can demonstrate the material in the air.


The Important thing is, that armed with this Knowledge, You find a better Dojang, if that is what You desire.


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