# YOU ARE AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!! KKW 17th F.I.C.



## msmitht

Say it loud and proud....YOU ARE AWESOME!!!!! Did you guys (those who attended the KKW foreign instructors course) see him handing out fliers at the end? What a joke that was. I am getting ahead of myself....
This past weekend marked the 1st time that the KKW FIC was held outside of Korea. Those of us who attended got to listen to many speakers in our industry. Masters and Grandmasters guided us on our way to achieving outstanding scores on our exams (I do believe that nobody recieved less than 70% on their exam) and tought us many lessons on marketing and how to motivate our students (and their wallets). I would like to share with you some of the idea's that I took home as a result :
1. I am AWESOME!!!
2. I charge way to little for classes
3. I suck because I do not drive a Bently/Mercedes/BMW
4. Bill Cho is the man when it comes to signing up new students...and upgrading them...and promoting them to 3rd dan in 3 years from start....and for teaching me how to make money on hot chocolate...and for admitting how he does all of this in front of some of his students and parents (did you guys see their faces?)
5. You are AWESOME!!!!!!
6. My demo team need's to lears that cool TKD dance so that they can get laughed at by all of their friends.
7. The USTC is extremely unorganized
8. Even our "Mother" can be bought for the right price
9. Only 50 Masters know how to properly perform Keumgang
10. A certian VP is dating the Korean Travel Org. guy (LOL)
11. We are AWESOME!
12. Twin fist is a fat, lazy texan who is out of shape and can not kick his way out of a paper bag. Who promoted him to 4th dan?
13. Self promotion is more important than education/sticking to the curriculum
14, The KKW instructors ROCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
15. Cheaters can prosper......158x200....I am too tired to do the math
16. GM Chang (think that is his name) is WAY too happy...and can beat up a 300 pound (Twin Fist) guy by running from him.
17. We all needed 3 motivational speakers to feel better about ourselves
18. Napolean lost a battle and quoted some "great" guy
19. About half of the Masters in the USA do not know the current competition rules.
20. Last one for tonight.....That many instructors promote their students to Poom/Black without ever having them spar. Funny, in the rules you have to do Kyoroogi until 7th dan for promotion. Isn't that what the Head of the KKW academy told us right before he told us the #$&wer& to ^h# ^es^?

I really enjoyed meeting all of you from the forum. It was a pleasure to meet other American Masters who actually care about educating others in TKD and love doing it. Where I live all of the masters are Korean and most are not friendly to me...Dunno why...I think I am an OK guy. I just don't always agree and I speak my mind. I also do not have a filter unless there is an 8th/9th dan around.
To be continued....................
YOU ARE AWESOME!


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## IcemanSK

No Matt, You are awesome! I had a great time.  I just showed my wife my cert., she said "great, but your name is misspelled." But, I'm still awesome!


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## NPTKD

Wow! Looks like you guys went thru a different course then I did in korea back in july! WTF! Sounds like it was the american sell your way to the top version, as far as doing the forms correctly... they are right!


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## NPTKD

I really like #12! and was the person there?


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## terryl965

OK I can get a real rundown of what happen? I mean some of that is a joke right ? What the hell is going on with TKD?


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## cmassman

We are Awesome. And I did see Master Awesome handing out filers at the end. I stop and had my picture taken with him. Why because it always nice to have proof of what a Awesome time we had. 

It was really great to meet everone.


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## NPTKD

cmassman said:


> We are Awesome. And I did see Master Awesome handing out filers at the end. I stop and had my picture taken with him. Why because it always nice to have proof of what a Awesome time we had.
> 
> It was really great to meet everone.


    Well, tell us more....


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## Tez3

Well I don't know much about your laws but as I'm reading this in England, English law would stand, no 12 is actually libellous and if TF wanted to bring a case here against you he'd win. :boing2:


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## cmassman

terryl965 said:


> OK I can get a real rundown of what happen? I mean some of that is a joke right ? What the hell is going on with TKD?


 

No Mat pretty much summed the weekend up in his 20 point list. If I had to add one it would be 21. Dinner with good friends can make the whole kind worth it.


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## terryl965

cmassman said:


> No Mat pretty much summed the weekend up in his 20 point list. If I had to add one it would be 21. Dinner with good friends can make the whole kind worth it.


 
That is a shame, I guess money is the greatest thing ever.


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## NPTKD

Tez3 said:


> Well I don't know much about your laws but as I'm reading this in England, English law would stand, no 12 is actually libellous and if TF wanted to bring a case here against you he'd win. :boing2:


  Have ever read some of TF crap and insults! And if he was there, isn't he the guy who posted the a KKW dan should be used for toilet paper?


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## MSUTKD

That was NOT a Kukkiwon Instructors Course.....more to come.


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## granfire

terryl965 said:


> That is a shame, I guess money is the greatest thing ever.




I think the term you are looking for is 'AWESOME'


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## cmassman

NPTKD said:


> Well, tell us more....


 
We will post more latter but right now we are all busy look for hot chocolate machines for our schools.  Why? because it's the keys to the Bently/BMW


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## terryl965

MSUTKD said:


> That was NOT a Kukkiwon Instructors Course.....more to come.


 

Master Southwick can you please explain what it was and why it was billed as the KKW Instructor course?


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## MJS

*ADMIN NOTE

*ATTENTION ALL USERS**

*Keep the thread at a civil level.  Please refrain from personal shots at other members.  *

*MJS
MT ASST. Admin.*


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## Twin Fist

NPTKD said:


> Have ever read some of TF crap and insults! And if he was there, isn't he the guy who posted the a KKW dan should be used for toilet paper?



No i didnt. I said that UNLESS you are talking to another KKW person, it is about as usefull as toilet paper since NO ONE outside the KKW even knows what the KKW is.

I stand by that too.


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## dortiz

You are Awesome!! 

Well no matter what it was well worth the time for me to meet all the great folks here and the actual short bits of training with Master Anh.

Iceman, I must say somehow I felt like we did the entire course together and I happily consider you a true friend. Anytime you head my way you have a place to stay, meals and company amigo.

MSU stood up to the challengs and in front of all delivered the goods. Miles of course was the silent weapon but man when I looked over it was simply amazing at how clearly he implemented the changes. Everyone of our group was clearly a true Martial Artist and great people. 

So for those that missed it here is my great story of pride. As we got grouped up to do our forms in front of the Masters the entire room was pushed to the back in order to have the space to do our Poomse up front. As I kept being asked to sit farther back I finally was on the edge of the room. The last time I sit I am suddenly getting wet. At that moment I also smell coffee. Sure enough someone was kind enough to spill their morning Joe on the carpet and leave it. I got to get up and perform already nervous but now with a big brown wet spot on my rear end. Good times.
I later had to chase my wife around the house trying to make her smell the stain to prove it was not accident of another nature. But thats another story.

158 X 200?? No my friend its way more than that, trust me. Minimum $500 and I would bet more. Do that math : O

Again for me the best part was the MT friends and how great they all turned out to be as people. I really hate that I missed dinner by being distracted by that stupid Gaslight steakhouse and the waitress outfits. Darn it!

Oh, and number 10. My exact thought. But of course as Seinfeld would say....

Dave O.


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## miguksaram

Sorry I missed you guys.  Our performance team was called on for a gig at a local fest at the last minute and I had to oversee that project.  I was hoping to drive up and meet some of you during your dinner break on Saturday.  I look forward to hearinng the feed back on the course.


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## shesulsa

Wow, msmitht.  Was that a sarcastic post, or do you really swallow all of that?


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## Gorilla

Very sad!!!


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## Twin Fist

lord i hope it is sarcasm

although, i have to admitt to wondering if Smith was dogging on me or someone else there was


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## shesulsa

Twin Fist said:


> lord i hope it is sarcasm
> 
> although, i have to admitt to wondering if Smith was dogging on me or someone else there was



I caught a couple there, yeah.  Tossing the blatant insults and flat-on attacks aside, is the point here that this event was little more than a motivational scam, or am I witnessing the effects of brainwash?


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## msmitht

Twin Fist said:


> lord i hope it is sarcasm
> 
> although, i have to admitt to wondering if Smith was dogging on me or someone else there was



I was just yanking your chain TF...Not serious. I apologize if I offended you....
Sulsa, or diarrhea (direct translation), you got my sarcasm...good. There was a lot of motivational garbage there.


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## terryl965

What I have read was the seminar was a brunch of crap but the people from MT was Awesome!! What I really like to know is simply was this a FIC or not? I mean it sounds like they was providing ways for school to fraud and make money off of there people. I wish stuff like this would go away if it was a money making weekend or atleast say that it is. Real Martial people will make money doing it that right way and of course the bad ones will promote BB in a year.


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## Gorilla

shesulsa said:


> I caught a couple there, yeah.  Tossing the blatant insults and flat-on attacks aside, is the point here that this event was little more than a motivational scam, or am I witnessing the effects of brainwash?


 I see no real value in insulting Twin Fist or attacking anyone on a personal level. It reflects poorly on our Martial Art.  We should all take a step back before we call someone a fool or make assumption before we know the facts.


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## msmitht

terryl965 said:


> What I have read was the seminar was a brunch of crap but the people from MT was Awesome!! What I really like to know is simply was this a FIC or not? I mean it sounds like they was providing ways for school to fraud and make money off of there people. I wish stuff like this would go away if it was a money making weekend or atleast say that it is. Real Martial people will make money doing it that right way and of course the bad ones will promote BB in a year.


I think that Fraud is a strong word that I would not use as it could possibly harm an organization's reputation. I was just expressing my opinion. It is a free country after all.


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## terryl965

msmitht said:


> I think that Fraud is a strong word that I would not use as it could possibly harm an organization's reputation. I was just expressing my opinion. It is a free country after all.


 

I was using the term fraud as in if it was a Foriegn Instructor Course as it was billed to be, but was nothing like it was suppose to be. I mean if I could have gone and found out it was a motivational speech about money making dojaang I would be pissed off.


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## dortiz

Here is one of the issues. Anyone who goes to Korea to take it will tell you that a large part of the course wont work here. 
You have to have degrees to be a counselor, you dont want to treat medical issues or you will get sued. 
So parts were tailored to the U.S., meaning they either added subjects or talked about using our roles differently.
That had to happen if teaching in this country. 
Now, was the modified material really what we needed to hear. Arguable but we were the first class in a new format. For anyone thats done business trainings you know these things evolve. I hope it evolves in the right direction. 
The Kukkiwon run parts were great and well worth it. Other parts need some work but hey thats in everything.

Dave O.


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## IcemanSK

I have to say that even the Course itself was not a complete waste of time. The Basics & Poomsae portions were outstanding. GM Ahn is an outstanding teacher & MAist. 

Dortiz & I did go through this together....& I am grateful. The coffee stain didn't effect your poomsae performance whatsoever. It was an absolute pleasure to get to know you in real life!

LaurenTKD is a fantastic person as well as a great MAist. She & I spend the day in front of the sandwich shop being TKD geeks all afternoon until it was time for our flights. After listening to a guy (who was not at the Course, but knew EVERYTHING about it & everything else) talk to us non-stop for an hour, I have to say this....she's a very patient person. You will be an excellent school owner one day, my friend.

MSUTKD can absolutely compete at a World Class level at poomsae! After seeing him perform poomsae head to head with GM Ahn with no warning in front of 100 people, I was in awe. Off the mat....he is truly a class act. You are AWESOME!

Miles, you are what every Chung Do Kwan practitioner should be. You're warm, kind & a fantastic MAist. I'm glad we have finally met!

CMassman better start posting on MT more often. He has a lot great things to add. It was a pleasure to be a thorn with you this weekend, sir!

Master Smith, I need to come visit you in S.D. I'll drive my Bentley down we'll Workshop for awhile.:supcool:


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## Bob Hubbard

I read through this and get 3 things:

#1- some event had some sucky seminars or workshops focused on making $$ but there were cool people there so it was fun.
#2- some people think it's ok to take pot shots at other members because they have issues with them and are either too stupid to understand the rules, or unwilling to follow them.
#3- some of our members are actually pretty cool people.

It's #3 that keeps me from shutting down the section after seeing #2 again.
I don't care about #1.

I hope that #3 will continue to outweigh #2.


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## NPTKD

Twin Fist said:


> No i didnt. I said that UNLESS you are talking to another KKW person, it is about as usefull as toilet paper since NO ONE outside the KKW even knows what the KKW is.
> 
> I stand by that too.


 


I stand corrected.... So were you there?


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## dortiz

It needs to stay open because everytime someone posts here I get to see "You are awesome" on the main page : )

Dave O.


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## NPTKD

Sorry twin fist... but I Can't help myself!!!! I must be stupid!  But here is what you really said, i cut and pasted it. I don't mean to get the thread shut down.... but I just fine it funny if you were there.

so, to recap:

to play KKW games, you need a KKW cert

to go to other KKW schools, you need a KKW cert

to ref at KKW games, you need a KKW cert

otherwise?

*it's toilet paper*


you think you need a KKW cert because the KKW told you you did

congrats, you are the martial arts equivilent of a frat boy


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## NPTKD

Bob Hubbard said:


> I read through this and get 3 things:
> 
> #1- some event had some sucky seminars or workshops focused on making $$ but there were cool people there so it was fun.
> #2- some people think it's ok to take pot shots at other members because they have issues with them and are either too stupid to understand the rules, or unwilling to follow them.
> #3- some of our members are actually pretty cool people.
> 
> It's #3 that keeps me from shutting down the section after seeing #2 again.
> I don't care about #1.
> 
> I hope that #3 will continue to outweigh #2.


 

*my above post is not a pot shot.... I just like to hold people to what the say! *


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## dortiz

Not to derail as well but why do you care if he said it. re reading it I find some truth.

You need a Medical Degree to practice Medicine in a professional setting.
You need one to write prescriptions.
You need one to admit patients to the hospital etc.

Otherwise its also great for TP.

Same for any paper. Its merit is for those that value it and what it represents and yes, to those that dont its worthless.

I like practicing TKD as a KKW certified Dan holder and learning from those that are as well. I also enjoy egtting medical help from licensed professionals. Thats my choice : )

More importantly " You are awesome!"

Dave O.


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## ATC

See, this is why my GM keeps telling us to only worry about what we do on the mat and let the other stuff just play itself out.

Glad that some of you had a great time meeting one another. Kind of reminds me of when I was younger and talked on the C.B. radio (some of you might know what that is) and we use to have CB breaks and meet up to put a face to a voice.


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## NPTKD

dortiz said:


> Not to derail as well but why do you care if he said it. re reading it I find some truth.
> 
> You need a Medical Degree to practice Medicine in a professional setting.
> You need one to write prescriptions.
> You need one to admit patients to the hospital etc.
> 
> Otherwise its also great for TP.
> 
> Same for any paper. Its merit is for those that value it and what it represents and yes, to those that dont its worthless.
> 
> I like practicing TKD as a KKW certified Dan holder and learning from those that are as well. I also enjoy egtting medical help from licensed professionals. Thats my choice : )
> 
> More importantly " You are awesome!"
> 
> Dave O.


 

I will end it like this " It Pissed me off!" That all! It didn't need to said that way, it was very disrespectful.


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## terryl965

ATC said:


> See, this is why my GM keeps telling us to only worry about what we do on the mat and let the other stuff just play itself out.
> 
> Glad that some of you had a great time meeting one another. Kind of reminds me of when I was younger and talked on the C.B. radio (some of you might know what that is) and we use to have CB breaks and meet up to put a face to a voice.


 

10-40 good buddy, I mean I like to meet people from MT and have a great converstration. I am like your Master we keep to ourself and just go out and preform and win. I mean is there anything else.


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## dortiz

NPTKD,
hey, sorry man. Not meant to be. The "Awesome" thing came from the seminar where we all say it to each other. Just thought I would start saying all the time. Its true and yet its funny.
My point was let his statement go. It has value to anyone that gets the value other wise, so what.
No disrespect meant.Truly sorry.

If it helps, Someone is Awesome!

Dave O.


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## shesulsa

msmitht said:


> Sulsa, or diarrhea (direct translation), you got my sarcasm...good. There was a lot of motivational garbage there.



So ... exactly what is your point with me? We've covered the sulsa part of my name before here. Is it a girl thing, or are you just incapable of following the forum rules?


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## granfire

dortiz said:


> It needs to stay open because everytime someone posts here I get to see "You are awesome" on the main page : )
> 
> Dave O.



:asian:


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## NPTKD

So for the people who went to all the other FIC in Korea, How do you think this reflects on all of the courses. I mean if you didn't know any better you would think they were all run like this!


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## Tez3

Iceman, you have a Bentley, wow, I am impressed, you have to post pictures! :supcool:


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## IcemanSK

Tez3 said:


> Iceman, you have a Bentley, wow, I am impressed, you have to post pictures! :supcool:




The Bentley came out of the marketing seminar this weekend (I don't actually have one myself). The guy speaking of marketing told us that a Bentley was going to be his next car while telling us (in front of his student's parents whom he brought) exactly how he suckers them of their hard earned cash. I wanted so badly to ask them what they thought of him after his seminar. But alas, I didn't. 

I guess I just need to drive my 12 year old car.:supcool:


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## Gorilla

IcemanSK said:


> The Bentley came out of the marketing seminar this weekend (I don't actually have one myself). The guy speaking of marketing told us that a Bentley was going to be his next car while telling us (in front of his student's parents whom he brought) exactly how he suckers them of their hard earned cash. I wanted so badly to ask them what they thought of him after his seminar. But alas, I didn't.
> 
> I guess I just need to drive my 12 year old car.:supcool:




Wow


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## miguksaram

Was this Bill Cho that was speaking about the bentley?


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## NPTKD

dortiz said:


> NPTKD,
> hey, sorry man. Not meant to be. The "Awesome" thing came from the seminar where we all say it to each other. Just thought I would start saying all the time. Its true and yet its funny.
> My point was let his statement go. It has value to anyone that gets the value other wise, so what.
> No disrespect meant.Truly sorry.
> 
> If it helps, Someone is Awesome!
> 
> Dave O.


  Hey you were in vages... jump over to the stance thread and help me out.


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## terryl965

IcemanSK said:


> The Bentley came out of the marketing seminar this weekend (I don't actually have one myself). The guy speaking of marketing told us that a Bentley was going to be his next car while telling us (in front of his student's parents whom he brought) exactly how he suckers them of their hard earned cash. I wanted so badly to ask them what they thought of him after his seminar. But alas, I didn't.
> 
> I guess I just need to drive my 12 year old car.:supcool:


 

I really hope you are kidding about him making statements like that in front of his students, this is what gives TKD a bad rap.


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## IcemanSK

terryl965 said:


> I really hope you are kidding about him making statements like that in front of his students, this is what gives TKD a bad rap.



Terry, I am not kidding. He really said that in front of students & parents!

And yes, it was Bill Cho!


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## terryl965

Well did he give any good advice about getting new student and keeping them.


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## IcemanSK

terryl965 said:


> Well did he give any good advice about getting new student and keeping them.




Not really. He doesn't keep them well. I spent the previous week with his competitor a few miles away. My friend gets Bill Cho's former students weekly.


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## MSUTKD

This was not a Kukkiwon Instructors Course, kind of

The idea of bringing the Kukkiwon to the USA to conduct an official Foreign Instructor Course is wonderful. For many Taekwondo practitioners travelling to Korea and doing a 40 hour seminar/course is difficult; job, family and expense. Although I have traveled and trained in Korea I never attended the Instructor Course and was a bit excited when I heard about this event; I was also skeptical about it when I heard who was hosting the course. I knew several respected Taekwondo instructors and friends that where going to attend and they encouraged me to go. (A couple of MT people were also going and I really wanted to meet them in person)
Before the course we were sent the instructor handbook to pre-study, which as an academic I thought was a brilliant idea; it was the actual manual too. We were also told that we would have to present at the course: proof of our Kukkiwon rank, first aid certification and a criminal background check; this is looking legit.


SIDE NOTE:


I have always been a supporter of the Kukkiwon and also the Dan certification they provide. When I started they were hard to get and that made them valuable. In my experience the people who complain about Kukkiwon certifications don&#8217;t have them, but after they somehow get it they can&#8217;t wait to yell it to the world. I was shocked that at the US Open last year when they offered the &#8220;Special Testing&#8221;. First, I believe that the intention of this test was to &#8220;right many wrongs&#8221; that people had suffered. Many of these individuals had their Kukkiwon&#8217;s held back by their instructors, many never had them sent to the Kukkiwon and many had received fake Kukkiwon&#8217;s. These individuals had reason to be there; the real issue became when those people who think that just because they have practiced for X amount of time that they deserve X rank, came out of the woodwork. They learned the forms the day before and received their &#8220;high&#8221; rank which I now see posted with honor on their websites, when a year ago they were bashing the Kukkiwon and USAT. Using that logic I should promote a student who left 15 years ago to 3rd dan when he returns because he practiced; I call BS. These are the same people who demand that their students follow the rules when they themselves basically cheated the system&#8230;all for what&#8230;.PAPER?
But I digress &#8230;&#8230;.


Back to Chicago:


I do appreciate the idea of self improvement. Had I signed up for a motivational or business seminar I might have expected some of the material but in a taekwondo instructor course this material insulted and de-motivated me. I really do not care how much money you make while you use terms like integrity, honor and humility as buzz words to misdirect potential and current students into giving you cash.

Hint to motivational speakers, if you have not really done anything but motivational speaking then why are you telling me how to be successful? Example: All four of you give me $100 a piece and I will tell you how to make $400... get it? I am motivated by someone who has been to the top and shares their experience down to the point where they were like me (frame of reference) before their paradigm shift. Example: Former/Current top taekwondo person/athlete who shares their experience.

I think talking about the taekwondo business in the USA is important for all instructors. We all need to learn basic management principles and practices so that we can do our primary job, teach martial arts. What we did was listen to people selling us on their programs, yes they tried to sell it to us at the end.

Msmitht&#8217;s numbered assessment was not sarcasm; that is what we did/learned. We did not follow the curriculum at all, ever. 

The only real Kukkiwon Instructor was Master Jae-Yoon Ahn, that guy was the real deal (back to him later); only problem was he had to teach poomsae for one hour or so and not one person in that room could have really fixed anything in that amount of time.

Dortiz makes the point that it is different in the US compared to Korea, but the test did not contain anything that could not have been talked about or practiced in the US. 


The test or lack of:


Probably the worst part for me was the test. Let me be blunt, we did not actually get tested but we passed. Participates actually clapped and cheered when they found out that we would not receive a score less than 70% PERIOD, I will not say why because I am appalled. I did not cheer, in fact I considered walking out but even I was weak. I could have passed that test on my own and will not display my Instructor certification until I go to Korea and really take it.
The sad thing is I know many of the participates will flaunt the certification, demand more from their students and use this for gain even though they know it is not right.

The poomsae test was the same, not a real test.

The Good Stuff!


I really felt like a negative person this weekend and feel like one right now as I write this but let me speak of some wonderful things about the weekend and really what, in reflection, I was meant to learn for this experience.

First, I have had the great fortune to work with and even become friends with some of the most outstanding, humble and wise taekwondo practitioners in the world. Two of my mentors were on this trip and have reminded me of why I do taekwondo. They teach me to maintain my beginners mind and are two of my favorite seniors and friends, Master Garth Cooley and MILES; thank you both.

Second, though my travels around the world in taekwondo, it really comes down to the people you meet. This trip was so worth it to meet the MT peeps!

Dortiz is positive and enthusiastic person and gives his best no matter what! (We MISSED you at dinner)

LaurenTKD is a charming and strong individual who has a moral fiber that I really respect. Powerful Jedi will she be.

Msmitht is direct, hilarious (OMFG) and knowledgeable. Hey guy and gals he has REAL skill too, watch out TF! Nice sidekicks&#8217; man, you&#8217;re awesome.

IcemanSK is such a soft and peaceful soul, what a wonderful person. 

Cmassman is a no BS guy who tells it like it is no matter where we are. lol! (I have known him for a while)

Andy and Ben where there too.

I did meet many others and hope to see them again.


My lesson:


My personal growth here comes from one Master Jae-Yoon Ahn. Just to be able to watch his mastery of poomsae was wonderful, I watched him in Turkey last year at World&#8217;s and thought he was good. After the test, in the peak of my despair he appeared and asked to lead us in some yudanja poomsae; he was the favorite (only) instructor there. We had to do Keumgang for our test which we did not do in our training time, so we stated there. He went through it roughly and we did it all crammed up; afterward he moved us to the sides and created a space in the middle of the room where he showed us how it is done (AWESOME timing). 
All of the sudden he scanned the room and his eyes locked on me. He knows that I am on the US Team and he called me to the center of the room. He then asked me to do Keumgang , I did what came out. Afterward he told me I was very tense, I did feel that way; he said to relax so that I could show my power. Funny, Ky-Tu Dang told me the same thing in Spain a month ago; It is one of my demons and because he is a true master (one that actually works out hard, even at 55). Master Ahn did not say this to criticize me but I felt to teach me. Moments like this stay with you and in times of stress you can remember the words or lessons; this year in Egypt I will remember his face and it will remind me to relax. 
He then talked about me being under 30 and I told him I was 45 almost 46. He was shocked and asked if I competed in Master 1 and I said yes. He then said to me, &#8220;well then you know Chonkwan&#8221;? I said yes and he said, &#8220;Then do it&#8221;. So I did but this time I tried to be relaxed and fluid. After he said, &#8220;well, now I have to do better&#8221;, which he did! We then went back to the class. 
That last moment inspired me. I want to be able at any time to display World Class Poomsae on command. I cannot wait to train today and will work hard to reach this goal, thank you so much Master Jae-Yoon Ahn.

My last thoughts are directed to any that will read them, Taekwondo practitioners and especially instructors; Get off your butts and train. If you are not in shape, If you cannot do what you ask your students to do or at least TRY, if you use excuses, if you do not really know the material you are not leading from the front and why should anyone follow you? Think about it.


Sorry I had to write this fast, so forgive my mistakes and comma usage.


----------



## Tames D

I wasn't at this seminar/event/ rally/ fund raiser (whatever it was). But reading these posts sounds like it was similar to the Dave Del Dotto thing, way back when. If you remember Dave, you might know what I'm talking about.


----------



## miguksaram

IcemanSK said:


> Terry, I am not kidding. He really said that in front of students & parents!
> 
> And yes, it was Bill Cho!


That guy is an idiot and full of himself.  I have a couple of stories about him and his students that alway raise the hair on the back of my neck. ~sigh~  Well I hope the rest of seminar was better.


----------



## MJS

Lets see where we stand so far.

1) We have a note by myself, telling people to stop with the personal shots.

2) We have a nudge by Bob, also suggesting the same thing.

3) Yet I still see comments about TF and Shesulsa.  What is this thread about again?  Oh thats right...neither of the people I just mentioned.

That being said...

*ADMIN NOTE*

*2ND WARNING AND FINAL WARNING*

*Stop with the personal shots and return to the topic at hand.  Further disregard of the forum rules will result in the thread being closed and Infraction points issued!*

*Mike Slosek*
*MT Asst. Admin*


----------



## terryl965

Master Southwick you are always so humble and I for one am glad to have had the priverledge to meet you. I am sorry to hear it was not a good time but I am gladto hear you and the rest had some good training with Master Ahn and you was able to meet some other TKD people.


----------



## dortiz

On a different note for those that were there I will forever disagree with the sport minded focus regarding the block. I stand by blocking is good. If the guys gets his fingers hit than close his hand and block with his fist instead. 
Especially in sparring since you are not going to grab, fist should be closed anyway. 
When doing line drills people should have a habit of hands up. You will fight as you train. If we are supposedly advocating the Martial Arts side then this too should be worked on.
My personal frustration and cross to bear. Every day a child is taught to fight with his hands down is a sad day to me.

Edit: You are awesome!

Dave O.


----------



## msmitht

shesulsa said:


> So ... exactly what is your point with me? We've covered the sulsa part of my name before here. Is it a girl thing, or are you just incapable of following the forum rules?


Not trying to break any rules, no malice behind my statement. It just so happens that I was told that the word "Sulsa" translates to a condition similar to the runs....that's all.


----------



## Laurentkd

Ok, I'll throw in my post (although I am sure I will be told it is too nice!).

As everyone else has said, this was NOT what I expected. I was very disappointed in the course, and in the "test" at the end. As Master Southwick mentioned, maybe we should have all just walked out. The smarmy presentation by Bill Cho (in front of his students and parents) made my skin crawl. The attempt from GM Hyong to hypnotize us made me laugh. I can't help but wonder why someone who doesn't have money as their priority start a quality organization we can all stand behind?? But I guess the answer is they are all too busy teaching quality martial arts!

But on to the good stuff.
I would like to say that I did enjoy the demonstration seminar by Master Lee. I did not come to this event to sit through that type of seminar. But I felt he did a good job explaining HOW to demonstrate the important aspects of what you teach (respect, discipline, etc) when asked to do a "show". Most of his suggestions were ones that I felt I could honorably do to help demonstrate my (future) dojang. Again, this is not what I came for, but at least it showed me that there can be seminars to help school owners promote their dojang without it being all about the almighty dollar (cough cough bill cho cough cough).

The poomsae portion with Master Ahn was awesome! It was limited due to the fact that we had 100 people trying to do poomsae in a small room without any individual instruction. But getting to see him perform on Sunday was worth the price of admission alone. The same follows for watching MSUTKD perform!! I will say that was a definite highlight. His presentation was awesome, but the most impressive part was the fact that he was asked on the spot in front of 150 other black belts to perform Chonkwan and he did so masterfully. I can tell you right now- my group presentation of Keumgang SUCKED! It has been a looooong time since I have performed in front of a group and I know I didn't step up to the challenge the way I should have been able to. Watching Master Southwick do just that magnified by 100 was definitely inspiring and motivates me to train harder!

SIDE NOTE: this seminar also re-awoke my desire to compete. Not for any gain except for forcing myself out of my comfort zone- forcing me to perform under pressure. I think as an instructor it is easy (and comfortable) to feel like the big fish in a little pond, but this weekend reminded me how important it is to jump into a larger pond to really grow.

So thank you sir for being such a fine example (and thanks again for your critique on my poomsae- I seriously hope I can take advantage of your knowledge and experience again soon). 

So the poomsae portion was definitely the martial art highlight of the weekend, but equally my favorite part was dinner Saturday night with all of you! Getting to meet you all in person was such a treat and it was great to see the face behind the computer screen. As the junior among the group it was also awesome to get to sit and eat and talk as peers. Every seminar dinner with seniors I have attended involved me sitting up straight, not speaking, and making sure everyone's glasses stayed full! It was a real treat to get to enjoy everyone's company as fellow TKD'ers. Each of you was even better in person than I had hoped! (A special thanks to iceman for keeping me company while waiting for our late flights- it was great to pick your brain!)

It is great to see other martial artists who walk the walk, and I am so glad that I went to the course this weekend. I came back disappointed, but at the same time the weekend exceeded my expectations.
We joke, but you really are awesome!


----------



## The Last Legionary

msmitht said:


> I was just yanking your chain TF...Not serious. I apologize if I offended you....
> Sulsa, or diarrhea (direct translation), you got my sarcasm...good. There was a lot of motivational garbage there.





shesulsa said:


> So ... exactly what is your point with me? We've covered the sulsa part of my name before here. Is it a girl thing, or are you just incapable of following the forum rules?





msmitht said:


> Not trying to break any rules, no malice behind my statement. It just so happens that I was told that the word "Sulsa" translates to a condition similar to the runs....that's all.



I can see how this "language lesson" fits the original post.
Once I bash my head into the wall 20 or 30 times, drink a case of Bud, and maybe smoke some of it too.

Here, read, learn, then stop trolling.

Also  and here.


----------



## Miles

Dueling Chonkwon with Master Ahn was definitely one of the highlights of the weekend-Master Southwick, YOU ARE AWESOME!

Meeting, sweating (unfortunately just a little), and dining with some of the most down-to-earth hardworking martial artists (Dortiz/IcemanSK/Lauren/CMassman/MSmithT) and Master Cooley was also awesome.

Master Southwick and others have detailed the pros and cons of the weekend but I have a just a few points to add.

Taekwondo has been a part of my life for over 30 years.  I think often of how I am blessed to have had wonderful instructors, seniors, students, and friends.  Several of the presenters this weekend reminded us of just how life-changing Taekwondo can be: Master Chan Lee who has helped a crippled child learn to walk (along with his father GM Jae Kyu Lee), and Dr. Chun Jae Park, a world champion who discovered and related how important Taekwondo has been to him.  These gentlemen have helped remind me what is really important in life. 

As a person in a profession which deals with details and public speaking, I was amazed at how well GM Harris reviewed and explained the WTF competition rules....without notes.  His knowledge and experience are awesome!

I had the good fortune to have taken this course in Korea in 2004.  I look forward to the time when the course presented in the USA measures up to that which has been presented in Korea for over 10yrs now.  I may be naive but I think it could be as good technically if the participants are qualified, willing to work hard, and not there for a piece of paper.  It will also require the Kukkiwon to send sufficient instructors-Master Ahn was exceptional, but with so many students, he was limited by space and time.

On a decidedly personal note, I noticed on Saturday a Master wearing a dobok that said "Phillipines".  I met an outstanding Filipino Taekwondoin in Korea but lost touch with him.  So I approached this gentleman to ask if he knew my friend.  The gentleman Saturday turned out to be my friend's brother!  I hope to reconnect with Master Ong and get a chance to train with him again.

Thank you MT and USTC for providing me with a mechanism and opportunity to meet and train with some new friends.


----------



## msmitht

Say me...1..2...3...you are awesome!!!
Seriously though, I really had a good time with everyone. Yeah, the speakers went off topic a little and the test procedure was "different".....but Master Ahn made up for it a little.


----------



## MSUTKD

Miles you are correct and credit to Master B. Harris is due.  He is one of the best refs in the world and it shows.


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## mango.man

Counter Point (or at least a more politically correct review) from Jeffrey Anderson



			
				Jeffrey Anderson (TKD.NET) said:
			
		

> Everyone,
> 
> I just had to put in a quick note to say thank you very much, to everyone at the USTC and Kukkiwon for putting on the instructors course in Chicago this week.  I had a great time, and learned a lot.  There were some really insightful sessions that had taken place, including dojang marketing, creative enrollment practices, sparring techniques (led by Master Sammy Pejo), taekwondo leadership (led by Master David Martin) and others.
> 
> By far the most helpful class to myself, was the hands on updates on all taegeuk and black belt poomsae, led by the current World poomsae champion and Kukkiwon instructor.  He was not only amazing, but very nice and extremely helpful.  The challenge with current Kukkiwon poomsae standards, is getting the information in a timely fashion.  We were practicing them with the right eyes on us, to make sure we had it right.  There were little question marks I had with a number of those forms, and they were all addressed.
> 
> I can't say thanks enough.  It was a great time, and once again, the USTC has provided a unique opportunity to participate in something normally only available in Korea.
> 
> I look forward to whatever else comes up from the USTC.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Jeff.


----------



## granfire

mango.man said:


> Counter Point (or at least a more politically correct review) from Jeffrey Anderson



Yes, this guy is awesome (could not resist) 

PC or company line....he enjoyed himself...(maybe put the hot chocolate idea to good use?)


----------



## mango.man

I am sorry, I just cant help but laugh out loud (SERIOUSLY) when I read that someone learned "Creative Enrollment Practices" at the event.

I am seriously in tears from laughing so hard.


----------



## MSUTKD

His first teacher is the president of the USTC.  I would expect this answer but he also might have liked that.


----------



## miguksaram

msmitht said:


> Not trying to break any rules, no malice behind my statement. It just so happens that I was told that the word "Sulsa" translates to a condition similar to the runs....that's all.


So are you saying the Chinese character that is used to translate Sulsa also mean 'runs' or are you just referring the to the direct Korean translation?  

Just like 'Bi' can mean blood or rain depending on the character used.


----------



## granfire

miguksaram said:


> Just like 'Bi' can mean blood or rain depending on the character used.



or on the weapon used?


----------



## miguksaram

It is my hope that many of you realize that this the first time something like this has been attempted.  While it was far from being perfect, the fact that the USTC is attempting to provide this type of service as well as others does show their committment to US TKD.  There are always going to be stumbling blocks for first attempts, but the feed back being provided here does help the USTC better gauge how to handle the event for next time.


----------



## MSUTKD

Stumbling blocks?  How about cheating to look good; is this what integrity is?  This is the same old same old from the people in charge.  Defending the behavior is hypocrisy, if you want my respect and support act respectfully.  (not you miguksaram)
People wonder why there was a power shift, here is the answer.  I would hope that most taekwondo practitioners would believe in what they learn and teach instead of trying to collect rank, titles, certifications and trophies.  We should be trying to increase our skill and practice what we preach.  
That is all I will say at this time.


----------



## miguksaram

MSUTKD said:


> Stumbling blocks? How about cheating to look good; is this what integrity is? This is the same old same old from the people in charge. Defending the behavior is hypocrisy, if you want my respect and support act respectfully. (not you miguksaram)
> People wonder why there was a power shift, here is the answer. I would hope that most taekwondo practitioners would believe in what they learn and teach instead of trying to collect rank, titles, certifications and trophies. We should be trying to increase our skill and practice what we preach.
> That is all I will say at this time.


I'm not sure what you mean by "cheating to look good".  Can you elaborate a bit more?  

I know you didn't address the "if you want my respect..." comment at me, but were you addressing the "Defending the behaviour is hypocricy" comment towards me?  If so I do not understand how I would be a hypocrit in defending it.  If not then....nevermind.  

You say that this is the "same old same old", but what has been done by those who took over to try and provide a similar opportunity?


----------



## MSUTKD

Miguk....NO I was not addressing that to you.


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## miguksaram

MSUTKD said:


> Miguk....NO I was not addressing that to you.


Cool..never mind then.


----------



## troubleenuf

The big question here is does the Kukkiwon have any value left?  First a very questionable Black Belt testing, now this....   There are also many instances of people getting certified who are questionable... 30 years ago the Kukkowon certification meant something.... I am sad to realize that it no longer does.  It has been sold, abused and given to any Tom, Dick or Harry who has the right amount of $$$.  The only value it has is in the minds of those of us who were told over and over again that it had value.  And its very hard to realize that you have been duped.  Especially if you have been duped for many years.


----------



## Miles

miguksaram said:


> It is my hope that many of you realize that this the first time something like this has been attempted. While it was far from being perfect, the fact that the USTC is attempting to provide this type of service as well as others does show their committment to US TKD. There are always going to be stumbling blocks for first attempts, but the feed back being provided here does help the USTC better gauge how to handle the event for next time.


 

This is a valid point.  At the end of the Course, the USTC passed around a questionnaire and I responded that I support the effort to bring good quality Kukkiwon-qualified instructors and instruction to the USA.  

I also responded that the non-Kukkiwon employed presenters should have stuck to their respective subjects and kept the "I will help you make more $$" out of the Course.  Those subjects could be presented at a Course geared toward sales and marketing or presented by a number of MA industry groups already doing so.

Others have much more knowledge of the organizers and their history.  I went to the Course along with 3 of my students to learn and train.  We did a little of both and had some fun meeting new people along the way.  I believe the chance to train and learn from Prof An alone was worth the price.  Spending quality time with some MT folks...priceless.


----------



## mango.man

Here is another review from an apparently alternate universe.  Were you guys all in the same building?



			
				Scott Stevens (TKD.Net) said:
			
		

> I wanted to express my sincere appreciation to the USTC and Kukkiwon for bringing the Kukkiwon Instructor Course to Chicago this past weekend. I learned a great deal and was very impressed with the quality of all presenters. I have returned to my training with new vigor and a virtual gold mine of ideas that will keep me busy improving my Taekwondo and my Taekwondo program for a long time to come. It was truly an honor to be part of this historic event.
> 
> While I was impressed with the course and the quality of the presenters, I was shocked by the apparent lack of respect for the Kukkiwon standards on the part of many attendees. I was astonished to see so many participants that were unprepared with little to no knowledge of the Kukkiwon terminology, poomse and the current technical standard. Apparently many people wanted the Kukkiwon to sign off on them as instructors but were not willing to learn or practice the Kukkiwon standards before hand. I found this lack of integrity saddening and inexcusable considering the unprecedented amount of high-quality books and videos that are currently available on the subject. Furthermore, many attendees clearly had little respect for the time of the presenters and others in attendance. I could not help to wonder how much we were already missing out on due to the fact that what is normally a five-day, 40-hour course had to be compressed into approximately 25 hours and now I wonder how much the presenters were slowed down by those who were woefully unprepared.
> 
> The 17th foreigners Kukkiwon Instructor Course was a wonderful & inspirational experience that reignited my passion and love of Taekwondo.  However, I am deeply concerned that the Kukkiwon representatives have left with a less than favorable impression of Taekwondo in the United States.  Hopefully, the collective performance of the class will not deter the Kukkiwon or the USTC from offering future foreigners instructor courses outside of Korea.
> Scott Stevens


----------



## terryl965

I m going to add somehing even though I was not their. I have read about some positives that was being done as TKD'ers we should always believe in what is positive about anything in life and I believe the USTC tried to bring something to us and hopefully the next one will be better. My only concern is why is it being billed as a Instructor course if it was not what the KKW offer over sea? You know over the last ten years we as Instructors have gone though alot with USTU, AAU and USAT and now the USTC, I believe each have there brite spots and merit to be a member to. I have a few athletes that are trying hard to stay positive and not get cought up in all the BS and I havebeen trying to so how to be a good role model by training harder over the last year, I figure if the USTC is trying to make an attempt to bring something positive to the US than we can try and only see the positive and I for one hopes this grows over the years and become something great. 

I do agree with Master Miles and Master Southwick about being their just for a piece of paper take what you learned and apply it into your school and make the future brighter for my sons and yes I am trying to be a bright spot as well.


----------



## NPTKD

mango.man said:


> Here is another review from an apparently alternate universe. Were you guys all in the same building?


 Looks like heis having flash backs to Vegas! LOL!


----------



## cmassman

terryl965 said:


> I m going to add somehing even though I was not their. I have read about some positives that was being done as TKD'ers we should always believe in what is positive about anything in life and I believe the USTC tried to bring something to us and hopefully the next one will be better. My only concern is why is it being billed as a Instructor course if it was not what the KKW offer over sea? You know over the last ten years we as Instructors have gone though alot with USTU, AAU and USAT and now the USTC, I believe each have there brite spots and merit to be a member to. I have a few athletes that are trying hard to stay positive and not get cought up in all the BS and I havebeen trying to so how to be a good role model by training harder over the last year, I figure if the USTC is trying to make an attempt to bring something positive to the US than we can try and only see the positive and I for one hopes this grows over the years and become something great.
> 
> I do agree with Master Miles and Master Southwick about being their just for a piece of paper take what you learned and apply it into your school and make the future brighter for my sons and yes I am trying to be a bright spot as well.


 

I think the USTC made an attempt at doing something good. were there issues yes (if you look hard enough you can find issues with everything). I hope the USTC learns what to do better and improves on what they provided. Overall I was glad I when and I did learn a lot form all the presenters. Even Professor AWESOME and Ben Cho on what I don't want to become. I do TKD because I enjoy it. I'm never going to make my living on running a TKD school so my goals are much different than someone who is feeding his family off of TKD. I don't begrudge someone for making a living at selling TKD At the end of the day everyone has to look at themselves in the mirror and if they can more power to them.


----------



## granfire

It just struck me:

If you have the class in the US, why is it called a 'foreigner' course? 
I understand that some foreigners were there....but the majority was from the US?

And if they have a foreigner course, what do they teach the non foreigners? (presumably in Korea...)

it's a puzzle (as well as to where they served the good Koolaide...)


----------



## dortiz

Ron,
I am a bananahead. "15. Cheaters can prosper......158x200....I am too tired to do the math.
Just figured it out.
I was thinking Billy Cho when he said he graduates 150 Black Belts every year. At 500 clams thats an extra 75K.

Dave O.


----------



## dortiz

Because the Kukkiwon is from Korea. 
In Korea there is an Instructors course. Then once a year they host the Foreign Instructors course and this time they held it in the U.S.
It could have been there, Mexico or the U.S. But its the course, not the location that dictates it.


----------



## Laurentkd

My understanding was that a huge reason why we did not cover the same material as the real Foreign Instructors course was because the USTC did not believe that American masters would go to a week long course. At the end of the session they asked who would still come if the course lasted four days instead of three.  I believe all but maybe a half dozen said they would. Should the Kukkiwon come back (which right now I really doubt will happen) I hope the USTC decides to make the course longer and offer the EXACT curriculum as the real course, with modifications made only when US law prevents certain actions.


----------



## dortiz

"EXACT curriculum as the real course, with modifications made only when US law prevents certain actions. "

Yup! The course really needs to be taught matching the book. Thats the best advice back to the those that are reading this.


Dave O.


----------



## StuartA

Okay.. read through some of this thread and all I can say is....

*"Awesome"*

:wavey::wavey::wavey::wavey::wavey::wavey::wavey:


----------



## shesulsa

Lordy.  I'm going to have to bite my tongue as I pass the TKD classroom on my way to my class tonight.


----------



## Carol

shesulsa said:


> Lordy.  I'm going to have to bite my tongue as I pass the TKD classroom on my way to my class tonight.



Just offer them some hot chocolate... :lol2:


----------



## Tez3

dortiz said:


> "EXACT curriculum as the real course, with modifications made only *when US law prevents certain actions.* "
> 
> Yup! The course really needs to be taught matching the book. Thats the best advice back to the those that are reading this.
> 
> 
> Dave O.


 

Good grief what on earth do they teach that can be against the law? Ooo I hope it's something rude I need a laugh...please?


----------



## Laurentkd

Tez3 said:


> Good grief what on earth do they teach that can be against the law? Ooo I hope it's something rude I need a laugh...please?


 
I only meant some things that are allowed in Korea (and other countries) but not in the US.  Some of this was covered earlier or in another thread, but as an example in the Kukkiwon course it discusses pre-hospital care.  But in the US you better have first aid certification, do only what you have been trained to do and in reality do as little as necessary, call 911 and wait for the professionals.  There is also a section on counseling, which you could also get in trouble for using in the US if you are not educated/certified to act in that scope.


----------



## IcemanSK

cmassman said:


> I think the USTC made an attempt at doing something good. were there issues yes (if you look hard enough you can find issues with everything). I hope the USTC learns what to do better and improves on what they provided. Overall I was glad I when and I did learn a lot form all the presenters. *Even Professor AWESOME* and Ben Cho on what I don't want to become. I do TKD because I enjoy it. I'm never going to make my living on running a TKD school so my goals are much different than someone who is feeding his family off of TKD. I don't begrudge someone for making a living at selling TKD At the end of the day everyone has to look at themselves in the mirror and if they can more power to them.



Uh sir, that is Grandmaster Dr. Awesome to you:supcool:. 

You hit the nail on head with this post. I'm glad that Prof. Ahn from the KKW & several others of you were there balance out these two & give great examples of what true TKDoan should be.:asian:


----------



## miguksaram

dortiz said:


> I was thinking Billy Cho when he said he graduates 150 Black Belts every year. At 500 clams thats an extra 75K.
> 
> Dave O.


I've seen some of his black belts....Sad is the only description I can come up with.


----------



## Archtkd

It was a pleasure to see and sit close to many of you wonderful Taekwondoin at the Kukkiwon instructor course over the weekend. Although I never got a chance to talk to many of you that have made posts about the course,  I can tell who you are by the general comments youve made. I think its a great thing for us to be honest about what we saw, but there could be a danger of letting all the good stuff flow to the drains as we unplug the waste tanks. 

Like many of you, Ive been involved in Taekwondo for more than 20 years and Ive yet to attend a seminar, course or competition where mediocrity doesnt rear its ugly head. Snake oil salesmen spewing rubbish will always slither into conferences and seminars that are aimed at making us better at what we do. These reptiles seem to be present in every profession. In my early days as a journalist I recall attending conferences at which rookie reporters earning $18,000 a year had to listen to so called veterans  who made three figures   talk about how they covered the world on unlimited budgets. Many of those veterans are now out of work as the print newspaper business evaporates or have become mouthpieces for industries they spent years  eviscerating.

As in any profession, Taekwondo also will always have suspect characters showing up at certification courses and seminars: The 7th Dan who staggers in and its discovered his Kukkiwon records end at 1st Dan; the 4th Dan who performs Taichi movements in Keumgang, etc. Somehow, these characters pass the tests, get certificates and run dojangs and theres nothing we can do.

For some of us who take Taekwondo seriously, attending the Kukkiwon seminar came down to simple choices: Bleed your bank account and head to Seoul, or attend the course in Chicago, hope for the best and get the best out of it. We learned some simple lessons, good and bad:

I. Most Taekwondoin are really nice and genuine folk entrapped in a web of Korean economic, political and class intrigue.
2. How to run a McDojangs and operate a blackbelt conveyer belt.
3. Everybody makes basic mistakes and even world class Taekwondoin can forget where to put their hands when doing a basic punch or block.
4. A genuine Taekwondo master can help you improve your poomsae and assist you to sharpen or relearn basic movements, no matter what level you are. 
5. A good referee can help you understand the Lopez rule in sparring and what punch and kick scores a hit, no matter how confusing the subject might sound in the era of the electronic hogu.
6. That row of 4 or even 9 gold lines embroidered on the tip of your belt is not kosher.
7. A world class sparring coach can teach wonderful footwork for evasion and offense, but forget to mention that blocking still exists and is a very important part of Taekwondo.  
8. The difference between Taekwondo dojangs and daycare centers is blurring faster than we think.
9. Taekwondo grandmasters with doctorate degrees can spark irrelevant debate. What was Napoleon Bonarpartes biggest defeat? Trafalgar, Waterloo, or Russia? 
10. Our competitors are completely ignorant of the adult, senior and corporate markets.


----------



## IcemanSK

Welcome to Martial Talk ArchTKD! I was a pleasure meeting you at the Course!


----------



## cmassman

Welcome to Martial Talk.


----------



## dortiz

I would pay double to spend another 3 days with our group.

 Welcome!

Dave O.


----------



## MSUTKD

Archtkd said:


> It was a pleasure to see and sit close to many of you wonderful Taekwondoin at the Kukkiwon instructor course over the weekend. Although I never got a chance to talk to many of you that have made posts about the course, I can tell who you are by the general comments youve made. I think its a great thing for us to be honest about what we saw, but there could be a danger of letting all the good stuff flow to the drains as we unplug the waste tanks.
> 
> Like many of you, Ive been involved in Taekwondo for more than 20 years and Ive yet to attend a seminar, course or competition where mediocrity doesnt rear its ugly head. Snake oil salesmen spewing rubbish will always slither into conferences and seminars that are aimed at making us better at what we do. These reptiles seem to be present in every profession. In my early days as a journalist I recall attending conferences at which rookie reporters earning $18,000 a year had to listen to so called veterans  who made three figures  talk about how they covered the world on unlimited budgets. Many of those veterans are now out of work as the print newspaper business evaporates or have become mouthpieces for industries they spent years eviscerating.
> 
> As in any profession, Taekwondo also will always have suspect characters showing up at certification courses and seminars: The 7th Dan who staggers in and its discovered his Kukkiwon records end at 1st Dan; the 4th Dan who performs Taichi movements in Keumgang, etc. Somehow, these characters pass the tests, get certificates and run dojangs and theres nothing we can do.
> 
> For some of us who take Taekwondo seriously, attending the Kukkiwon seminar came down to simple choices: Bleed your bank account and head to Seoul, or attend the course in Chicago, hope for the best and get the best out of it. We learned some simple lessons, good and bad:
> 
> I. Most Taekwondoin are really nice and genuine folk entrapped in a web of Korean economic, political and class intrigue.
> 2. How to run a McDojangs and operate a blackbelt conveyer belt.
> 3. Everybody makes basic mistakes and even world class Taekwondoin can forget where to put their hands when doing a basic punch or block.
> 4. A genuine Taekwondo master can help you improve your poomsae and assist you to sharpen or relearn basic movements, no matter what level you are.
> 5. A good referee can help you understand the Lopez rule in sparring and what punch and kick scores a hit, no matter how confusing the subject might sound in the era of the electronic hogu.
> 6. That row of 4 or even 9 gold lines embroidered on the tip of your belt is not kosher.
> 7. A world class sparring coach can teach wonderful footwork for evasion and offense, but forget to mention that blocking still exists and is a very important part of Taekwondo.
> 8. The difference between Taekwondo dojangs and daycare centers is blurring faster than we think.
> 9. Taekwondo grandmasters with doctorate degrees can spark irrelevant debate. What was Napoleon Bonarpartes biggest defeat? Trafalgar, Waterloo, or Russia?
> 10. Our competitors are completely ignorant of the adult, senior and corporate markets.


 

What an awesome response!  You are correct.


----------



## Laurentkd

Glad to have you on Martial Talk Archtkd!


----------



## msmitht

we are all awesome!!!!!!!


----------



## Miles

I've posted some photos from this event.  And this is the 100th post on this thread!


----------



## terryl965

One thing I would love to see is BB tat actually workout sometime during the day. I mean some never ever workout but yet they feel they can teach.


----------



## d1jinx

I was dissapointed I could not go.  Prior arrangements prevented me from being stateside that week/end.  That being said, I am kind of relieved after reading the posts here today, that i didnt go.  Although it would have been nice to have met some of you... I would have wished to spend more time "educating" myself about TKD/history/poomse changes ect that how to be rich.  An hour poomse seminar is not nearly enough.  Should have been a day or two i think and would have thought.  While I understand it was supposed to be an instructor course and business is part of an instructors daily job.... I would not have appreciated what I have read here.  All to many times, someone comes up with a great idea.... only to have it lessened by persons attemping to capitolize on it.


----------



## IcemanSK

d1jinx said:


> I was dissapointed I could not go.  Prior arrangements prevented me from being stateside that week/end.  That being said, I am kind of relieved after reading the posts here today, that i didnt go.  Although it would have been nice to have met some of you... I would have wished to spend more time "educating" myself about TKD/history/poomse changes ect that how to be rich.  An hour poomse seminar is not nearly enough.  Should have been a day or two i think and would have thought.  While I understand it was supposed to be an instructor course and business is part of an instructors daily job.... I would not have appreciated what I have read here.  All to many times, someone comes up with a great idea.... only to have it lessened by persons attemping to capitolize on it.




I think one of the issues that added to the problem was that there were 2 groups (Kukkiwon & USTC) both having a hand in the Course. In Korea, it's only the KKW who organizes the whole thing. I'm sure having 2 groups "in charge" did not help.


----------



## granfire

But you are awesome anyhow! :lol:


(I know, I better stuff it before I collect a boot to the head)


----------



## Twin Fist

i am not awesome..


----------



## granfire

Twin Fist said:


> i am not awesome..




AWE........

yes, you, too, my friend are awesome!


----------



## Miles

Twin Fist said:


> i am not awesome..


 
Come to Detroit and train with me and you too can be awesome, or at the very least, less unawesome!


----------



## granfire

Miles said:


> Come to Detroit and train with me and you too can be awesome, or at the very least, less unawesome!




Oh no, you are selling hot chocolate.....


----------



## shesulsa

*slowly, carefully leads Twin Fist away from the Korean section towards the Kenpo forums*

:xwing:


----------



## Miles

granfire said:


> Oh no, you are selling hot chocolate.....



Oh no!  I found a better way.....M&Ms (with peanuts)!


----------



## d1jinx

*AM I?... YES I AM.....*
*....I AM AWESOME*


Thank you for reminding me in this thread.  all to often I forget and just go through the motions of life.....


----------



## d1jinx

oh.... swiss miss.... just add a little milk with the water..... and whip cream.... wait.... thats gourmet hot coco... more $$$$$$$$$$$


----------



## Laurentkd

Hey, I just realized I never sent in a picture. Anyone still have that email address?
Thanks!


----------



## IcemanSK

Laurentkd said:


> Hey, I just realized I never sent in a picture. Anyone still have that email address?
> Thanks!



I'd email Master Harris. He'd know where to send it.


----------



## IcemanSK

Anyone else get the email letter from GM Lee today? It's just a reminder that we are all awesome!!!!:uhyeah:


----------



## Archtkd

Got the letter from Grandmaster Sang Lee. Here's the e-mail for the photos to the Kukkiwon: jwkang@nate.com


----------



## granfire

Archtkd said:


> Got the letter from Grandmaster Sang Lee. Here's the e-mail for the photos to the Kukkiwon: jwkang@nate.com




Was it mentioned how truly AWESOME you are?


(I am sorry, I could not help it)


----------



## Laurentkd

I got the letter too- it made me think about the photo.
And if you ask me, he didn't mention how awesome I am nearly enough!!:ultracool


----------



## IcemanSK

Laurentkd said:


> I got the letter too- it made me think about the photo.
> And if you ask me, he didn't mention how awesome I am nearly enough!!:ultracool




Really? He did on mine!:uhyeah:


----------



## granfire

IcemanSK said:


> Really? He did on mine!:uhyeah:



She is moar awesome!


----------



## IcemanSK

granfire said:


> She is moar awesome!



Isn't it more awesome..er? And I agree.


----------



## Laurentkd

IcemanSK said:


> Isn't it more awesome..er? And I agree.


 
oh brother

:boing1:


----------



## granfire

IcemanSK said:


> Isn't it more awesome..er? And I agree.



moar is moar kewl!

and I am kewl, on top of being AWESOME....

OK, I am putting my Soda down now.... ^_^


----------



## msmitht

Wow. I never thought that this many people would read and respond to this post. I just got back from Belize (Which was awesome) and have had time to reconsider my original post. While I still feel that most of what I said was true, to me anyway, I think I need to add to it in a more positive way...
1. The speakers were knowledgeable in their respective fields, we were just not expecting to hear what they were saying.
2. The USTC did attempt to run a good course. 
3. I got to learn from everyone there. Some showed me what I can work on to be a better teacher/dojang owner. Some showed me what not to do. One showed me what it means to sell out.
4. Twin fist does not like/respect the art that someone was crazy enough to give him a 4th dan in. Quit knocking TKD and go to the Kenpo section.
5. The people I spent time with were all awesome and I cant wait to see them again.


----------



## Miles

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4vqL78Vzfo&feature=player_embedded

This is the video which Master Chan Lee played in his presentation at the FIC.  It is about his young student with cerebral palsy learning how to walk.  

This video shows the AWESOME potential that our students possess as well as the positive influence we can have as instructors.  Lately there's been some pointed discussions which have not demonstrated two of the tenets many Taekwondoin recite in their classes: courtesy and self-control.  Watch this video and try to deny that you as an instructor or a senior student are not a role model.  Then remember those tenets are not just a couple of words in a sales pitch.


----------



## granfire

With all the bickering lately, are we still awesome?


----------



## Laurentkd

granfire said:


> With all the bickering lately, are we still awesome?


 

Well, I know I am :ultracool
Are you?


----------



## Archtkd

Here's Master Ahn Jae-yoon, at the just concluded WTF World Poomsae Championship in Cairo. 

1. http://www.dartfish.tv/Player.aspx?CR=p1c6439m65933 

2. http://dcp.dartfish.com/WebPresenter/Player.aspx?CR=p1c6439m65926


----------



## msmitht

I know that I am Awesome!!!!!! So is everyone else....except for twinfist


----------



## The Last Legionary

and your mother!

oh wait, she is Awesome!
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





:lfao:


----------



## Archtkd

Not to get off topic folks but is this J.Y Ahn listed as the grandmaster of this dojang 
http://www.fishersahnstkd.com/People.htm
in Fishers, Indiana not Prof. Ahn Jae-yoon, the poomsae supernatural and Kukkiwon star at the 17th FIC?


----------



## dortiz

Same person, his bio is right there:
Eighth Dan
Chairman of TaeHoKwan School

- 8th Degree Black Belt, Certified by Kukkiwon 
- Master, World TaeKwonDo School
- Director, Seoul TaeKwonDo Association
- Director, Kyunghee University TaeKwonDo
- President, The World Junior TaeKwonDo Assoc.
- Instructor Certified by Kukkiwon
- Certified in Sports Massage

Clearly his family is smart enough to have him be involved with their school. That kind of marketing makes more sense than Tae Kwon Do dance does to me.

He also just took gold in the international championships.

Dave O.


----------



## Laurentkd

huh!
Very cool.
Wonder if he ever teaches there.

So does anyone know if we are supposed to get another certificate from the seminar, or if the one we got is "the certficate".  Not that it even effects my life, I just still wonder if the Kukkiwon recognizes us as passing the course....let me rephrase that- do they recognize us as even taking THE course...


----------



## dortiz

As I understood it Bruce Harris with the USTC was going to handle getting the cards out to those that passed and are 4th dans or higher. 3rd Dans will be registered and can contact him upon being promoted at which time a card is created. Below 3rd dan receives a course completion certificate as we all did but gets no real registry with the Kukkiwon regarding certification.
Long answer short is you should receive a card as you did for your rank showing certification.
Dave O.


----------



## Archtkd

Laurentkd said:


> huh!
> Very cool.
> Wonder if he ever teaches there.


 
I was wondering the same thing. Wouldn't ot be great if MT members could all get together in a purely (no politics, power struggles, etc.) poomsae seminar taught by grandmaster Ahn. If he has connections with a school in Indiana this could be done.


----------



## Miles

Laurentkd said:


> huh!
> Very cool.
> Wonder if he ever teaches there.
> 
> So does anyone know if we are supposed to get another certificate from the seminar, or if the one we got is "the certficate".  Not that it even effects my life, I just still wonder if the Kukkiwon recognizes us as passing the course....let me rephrase that- do they recognize us as even taking THE course...




There is a separate certificate of qualification which comes 2-3 months after the course.


----------



## Laurentkd

Archtkd said:


> I was wondering the same thing. Wouldn't ot be great if MT members could all get together in a purely (no politics, power struggles, etc.) poomsae seminar taught by grandmaster Ahn. If he has connections with a school in Indiana this could be done.


 

That would be awesome!!!
Although I would be just as happy with a seminar from Master Southwick


----------



## IcemanSK

Laurentkd said:


> That would be awesome!!!
> Although I would be just as happy with a seminar from Master Southwick




I agree wholeheartedly!


----------



## Archtkd

I have received the first piece of junk mail that I can directly connect to the KKW 17th F.I.C.: A 2010 calendar from the Korea Tourism Organization. It's actually cool, though. Nice pictures from the Korean countryside.


----------



## IcemanSK

Archtkd said:


> I have received the first piece of junk mail that I can directly connect to the KKW 17th F.I.C.: A 2010 calendar from the Korea Tourism Organization. It's actually cool, though. Nice pictures from the Korean countryside.



I got mine on Saturday. Hopefully, that's all we get.


----------



## msmitht

I got my calendar too. I called and asked to be taken off of the list. Has anyone heard when we will get our certification? I am planning on going to Korea next year to do the REAL course so I do not feel bad about displaying the certification.


----------



## Archtkd

msmitht said:


> I am planning on going to Korea next year to do the REAL course so I do not feel bad about displaying the certification.



Looking at this report from Gerry Reilly, a UK practioner, who attended the 14th Kukkiwon FIC in Korea in 2006, I'd say the 17th FIC in Chicago wasn't as bad as we think, save for some of the terrible lectures we've talked about on this thread. This applies to those who studied the Kukkiwon course book -- which I think is a terrible textbook -- entirely before the course and had also done some serious practice of basic, movements and modern WTF poomsae on their own, before the event. 

According to Mr. Reilly, it really doesn't seem as though the course in Korea should take five days. The only thing done on Day 1 for the 14th FIC was hotel registration. A large part of Day 2 was spent on lectures and visits with Taekwondo officials. The report goes on and on, and the final impression I get is that a few minor tweaks of the more affordable and convenient Chicago course would have made it very good. The meat of the of the 14th FIC in Korea was Poomsae training. That was the case in Chicago, but we just didn't have enough space, instructors and time allocated to that training. Read on: http://www.chungdokwan.org.uk/Newsletter/CDK_Newsletter_Jan2007.pdf


----------



## FLTKD

I did the 16th instructors course in july. From what I have read here their is a lot different. We spent 2 days just working on poomsae both days started a 8:30 a.m. and ended at 7:00 p.m.  About 4 hours  were spent on olympic sparring foot work on on of the five days. We did spent  time in the class room, but the topics were a little different. I enjoyed the classroom time. 

Not to say it was better or worse, just different. But keep in mind, It was in Korea! in the "Kukkiwon!" Just can't get better then that!


----------



## dortiz

I know this, since doing the course I have done my forms almost daily and with a new passion. If nothing else you meet great people and I bet can find a spark that can be applied somewhere in your training.

Dave O.


----------



## Laurentkd

dortiz said:


> I know this, since doing the course I have done my forms almost daily and with a new passion. If nothing else you meet great people and I bet can find a spark that can be applied somewhere in your training.
> 
> Dave O.


 

Me too! I have been more excited to practice Tae Gueks after that weekend than I have in a long time. I have been doing TKD for a long time, and have always loved it, but it is nice to get a little "spark" now and then!


----------



## msmitht

That is how I felt after I attended a Poomsae seminar with Master Park from the KKW. I have been to 4 different Poomsae seminars put on by the KKW and each one of them was awesome...Just like you....because....
*YOU ARE AWESOME!*


----------



## msmitht

Wow...you guys (and gals) are all awesome. This thread will soon be in the top ten (total visits) in this section. Not that it was my intention or anything, but it is cool.
I hope that everyone had a good holiday and remember......
*YOU ARE AWESOME
*unless you do tkd dance.....it is just wierd to me.....sorry


----------



## msmitht

I just got this from the USTC....

To All,

USTC President Sang Lee returned from Korea on Christmas Day and brought with him the Kukkiwon Master Instructor Course Certificates. Today I received from him the Kukkiwon Instructor Course Certificates and Kukkiwon ID Cards for those of you who are 4th Dan and above. For those of you who are 3rd Dan, upon receiving your 4th Dan from Kukkiwon you need only send $50 
to USTC and we will get your Instructor Course Certificate processed and sent to you.

I plan to mail out the Kukkiwon Instructor Certificates to you during the first week in January, or very shortly thereafter. I still must sort, stuff into mailers, address them all and get them to the US Post Office. So, I appreciate your understanding for the brief time that it will take for me to get the certificates mailed to you. I do have them in my warm hands.

As a reminder, some of you still need to send to me proof of 1st Aid Certification on proof of having completed the Background Check. I will hold onto your certificate until I receive the requested proof. You may send it to me via this email, as some of you have done.

Finally, there are a few of you who applied while 3rd Dan but have since received your 4th Dan. I need for you to send me the $50 payment (Check made out to USTC) so that I can forward your Kukkiwon Instructor Certificate to you.

~Bruce Harris
Executive Director,
USTC


----------



## Archtkd

msmitht said:


> I just got this from the USTC....
> 
> To All,
> 
> USTC President Sang Lee returned from Korea on Christmas Day and brought with him the Kukkiwon Master Instructor Course Certificates. Today I received from him the Kukkiwon Instructor Course Certificates and Kukkiwon ID Cards for those of you who are 4th Dan and above.


 
Me too.


----------



## Miles

Me three....which is a little strange since my Instructor Certificate from 2004 came directly from KKW.


----------



## terryl965

*All I know is all of you are just super duper awesome*​


----------



## Laurentkd

Miles said:


> Me three....which is a little strange since my Instructor Certificate from 2004 came directly from KKW.



Yeah, it is strange, but I really thought we would never receive them. Guess I'll believe it when I see it...


----------



## IcemanSK

Laurentkd said:


> Yeah, it is strange, but I really thought we would never receive them. Guess I'll believe it when I see it...



Well, you are from Missouri, aren't you?!:ultracool
It seems appropriate!


----------



## Archtkd

IcemanSK said:


> Well, you are from Missouri, aren't you?!:ultracool
> It seems appropriate!


 
Iceman, that's appropriate indeed. I also reside in the Show Me State. On the same topic, I've seen some grandmasters with pull get dan certificates directly from the Kukkiwon for distribution to their student so it's a safe guess to assume the USTC folks also have the clout to get the instructor certificates in the same way. USTC after all convinced the Kukkiwwon to deliver the 17th FIC in Chicago. 

On a side note I wish all the awesome folks a very, very Happy New Year.


----------



## IcemanSK

I'm still trying to get them to get my name correct on initial certificate that they gave us. I email Master Harris once a month about it. He's is yet to respond to my latest email of a few days ago. All I want is my name spelled correctly. Is that too much to ask?!


----------



## dortiz

"Is that too much to ask?!"
Maybe : )
As you may have noticed every time I was missing on the sheets, turns out my number got mixed up. At the end I of course also had no certificate. The funny part is the guy from the Kukkiwon looked at my name and said he made it. To be fair when we got upstairs and he opened the computer my name was there and it looked like it should have been made. Best we could figure two numbers overlapped/got shared. Either way he pulled the one and only last cert out and made mine. Just then a Korean gentleman came up to their suite as well with the spelling problem. All I heard was a lot of Korean and pointing and then he handed him a pen and said in english " just scratch out" " "it will be right at Kukkiwon".
My 3rd Dan school cert also got messed up. My teacher at the presentation ran in back and used another one that been made so it too looked horrible. He also said "whats the big deal?" "Your Kukkiwon one will be right".
So maybe the lesson is we worry to much about these things. At the same time if your stuffs wrong at the Kukkiwon, good luck! Thats a big problem 
: o


----------



## Miles

Well, hopefully DOrtiz you got your KTO calendar!  

All humor aside, I've never tried to get a spelling error from KKW corrected so I don't know how hard it is to do so.  Hopefully you won't have to learn either!


----------



## Laurentkd

IcemanSK said:


> Well, you are from Missouri, aren't you?!:ultracool
> It seems appropriate!



I didn't even think about that! So I guess it must be true!


----------



## dortiz

Yup, they had no problem getting me on the that list : )

By the way gang, Happy New Year and lets all have a really great one.


----------



## dortiz

"This year, USTC and Kukkiwon will be hosting four Kukkiwon Instructor
Seminars. Dates and locations are not final yet, but there will be at least
one in California (perhaps one is southern region and one in northern
region), one in Texas, and another on the east coast somewhere. The
tentative date for the seminars is late April or May and they probably will
be held on four consecutive weekends.
The President of the Kukkiwon, GM LEE Seung Wan, feels that a policy of
globalization and internationalization is of the utmost priority, and these
Kukkiwon Instructor Courses is the first step. Other countries may also soon
be hosting Kukkiwon Instructor Courses as well."


----------



## d1jinx

So does this mean they will expect everyone to do it over and over again each year?  I understand the importance of being up to date, but how often are they really gonna want you to attend?  annually?  

On a side note, Changing your name should be simple, email Kukkiwon and request it.  They may require you to mail it in and pay, but when you email them, they should tell you how to get it done.


----------



## Archtkd

Folks aren't we still awesome! I was just browsing through the new Kukkiwon web site and stumbled on this little nugget. From 1998 to 2008 only 1,273 non-Korean people worldwide had completed the 1st-3rd Class Foreign Instructor (Master Instructor) Course, and out of those only 691 qualified for certification/licencing. 

That's a fairly dismal pass rate or high failure rate depending on how you look at it.

Here's the page with the data. Note the label for instructor has been changed to coaches:
http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/viewfront/eng/education/inservice_02.jsp


----------



## Miles

d1jinx said:


> So does this mean they will expect everyone to do it over and over again each year?  I understand the importance of being up to date, but how often are they really gonna want you to attend?  annually?




You get certified once but you can take the course over as many times as you want.  I took the 17th FIC as a refresher.  

Also, there are different Courses for different classes of instructors:
4th & 5th dans: 3rd Class
6 & 7th dans: 2nd Class
8 & 9th dans: 1st Class

I guess the other thing that this demonstrates is that the Kukkiwon does not believe you stop learning (or can't improve as an instructor) at 9th dan.  Growth and learning continue as long as you are alive.


----------



## IcemanSK

On January 20th, I received an email from Bruce Harris stating the certificates were to be sent out soon. Has anyone received theirs yet? I have not.


You are all still really AWESOME!!!

Just sayin':ultracool


----------



## terryl965

IcemanSK said:


> On January 20th, I received an email from Bruce Harris stating the certificates were to be sent out soon. Has anyone received theirs yet? I have not.
> 
> 
> You are all still really AWESOME!!!
> 
> Just sayin':ultracool


 

*Awesome people that is all for now!!!!!!!!*


----------



## d1jinx

Maybe its apples to oranges, but I am still waiting on DAN certificates I sent for on 8-21-09.  Check cleared
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





, but still not updated on the website or recieved them.  I heard there is "great trouble within KKW".... alot of good that does me!


----------



## Miles

d1jinx said:


> Maybe its apples to oranges, but I am still waiting on DAN certificates I sent for on 8-21-09. Check cleared
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> , but still not updated on the website or recieved them. I heard there is "great trouble within KKW".... alot of good that does me!


 
That's just way too long!  I did a 4th dan and a 1st dan online and we got the certificates in about 2 weeks.  I suggest you call the KKW.


----------



## d1jinx

Miles said:


> That's just way too long! I did a 4th dan and a 1st dan online and we got the certificates in about 2 weeks. I suggest you call the KKW.


 
They were "misplaced".  I guess they decided to stop doing mail in applications way before they actually announced it!  Anywho, 1-2 more weeks and then "in the Mail".

We'll see.  still dont show online!


----------



## Archtkd

IcemanSK said:


> On January 20th, I received an email from Bruce Harris stating the certificates were to be sent out soon. Has anyone received theirs yet? I have not.



I wondering the same thing.  This is what Mr. Harris sent 

"To All,

I want to give you the latest information regarding your certificates from the 
Kukkiwon Master Instructor Course. As I told you in an earlier email, I am in 
possession of the Kukkiwon Instructor Course Certificates from Kukkiwon, 
hand-delivered by President Sang Chul Lee. Since we received them we have been 
in the process of designing the License Certificates that you will also receive. 
The design process has been completed and the certificates are at the printers. 
It is my fervent hope to get both the Kukkiwon Master Instructor Course 
Certificates and ID Cards, along with the USTC License Certificates in the mail 
by this weekend. Hopefully, you will be able to appreciate the work and effort 
that went into creating a License Certificate that you will be proud to display 
in your Dojang,  I apologize for the delay in the creation and printing of the 
additional certificates, and I thank you for your patience and understanding.

As a reminder, those of you who are 4th Dan and higher will be receiving the 
certificates and ID card. Those of you who took the course as 3rd Dan, upon 
receiving your Kukkiwon 4th Dan and, upon sending to the USTC a check or money 
order for the additional $50 will also receive these certificates and ID Card.

You should receive your certificates in the very near future.

~Bruce Harris "


----------



## msmitht

Just got the Cert from the seminar. Funny looking tthI have never seen a certificate that came from the Kukkiwon that looks like this one. The USTC cert looks better.


----------



## Archtkd

msmitht said:


> Just got the Cert from the seminar. Funny looking tthI have never seen a certificate that came from the Kukkiwon that looks like this one. The USTC cert looks better.


 
I didn't know the president of the Kukkiwon is Kukkiwon. That's what it says on the Kukkiwon instructor certificate and card.


----------



## terryl965

*All I wanted to add is all of you are awesome*


----------



## Archtkd

This is what previous kukkiwon master instructor certificates looked like. 
http://www.academictaekwondo.com/mastercert.htm


----------



## msmitht

Archtkd said:


> This is what previous kukkiwon master instructor certificates looked like.
> http://www.academictaekwondo.com/mastercert.htm



The graduation cert they gave us looks like that one. I asked an 8th dan friend of mine and he said that it was official. He did wonder why I took the course though. Said that we basically do not need it in the US.


----------



## terryl965

msmitht said:


> The graduation cert they gave us looks like that one. I asked an 8th dan friend of mine and he said that it was official. He did wonder why I took the course though. Said that we basically do not need it in the US.


 

This is true but it always helps to get more training whenever it is possible.


----------



## d1jinx

terryl965 said:


> This is true but it always helps to get more training whenever it is possible.


 
Agreed, if anything, just the chance to work out with fellow Masters is worth it.   Its not everyday you can actually work within your pear group.


----------



## granfire

Awesome

(needed to hear that today)


----------



## Mark Jordan

Everyone is Awesome!!!


----------



## Archtkd

How about reviving a dead horse. I just stumbled on this online copy of a KKW master intructor certificate and the wording is quite different from the one on the certificates issued to the folks who attended the 17th FIC in Chicago:
http://nwartrainingcenter.org/Instructor-Certification-Kukkiwon.html


----------



## d1jinx

Archtkd said:


> How about reviving a dead horse. I just stumbled on this online copy of a KKW master intructor certificate and the wording is quite different from the one on the certificates issued to the folks who attended the 17th FIC in Chicago:
> http://nwartrainingcenter.org/Instructor-Certification-Kukkiwon.html


 

How so? thats how mine looks.  Anyone have the other one?

funny, the date is the same as mine and the number is only a couple off.... I dont remember this person at the Virginia Diliyo...

must have just submitted the whole group from all the seminars at once!...


----------



## miguksaram

d1jinx said:


> How so? thats how mine looks. Anyone have the other one?
> 
> funny, the date is the same as mine and the number is only a couple off.... I dont remember this person at the Virginia Diliyo...
> 
> must have just submitted the whole group from all the seminars at once!...


 
If I remember correctly that is what they did.  The KKW officials took all of them back and submitted all at once.


----------



## Archtkd

d1jinx said:


> How so? thats how mine looks.  Anyone have the other one?
> 
> funny, the date is the same as mine and the number is only a couple off.... I dont remember this person at the Virginia Diliyo...
> 
> must have just submitted the whole group from all the seminars at once!...



The one I have from the the 17th FIC states "Certificate of Qualification" instead of "International Master License"

It further states "This is to Certify that the person named above has successfully completed the Taekwondo Instructor Course for the Instructor Grade test by Kukkiwon. The one on the link  states: "This is to Certify that the person named above has successfully  completed the Taekwondo Master Course for Master test  by Kukkiwon." 

The 17th FIC Kukkiwon certs also where not really signed by anybody, because they were issued in Oct. 2009 when the Kukkwion leadership hadn't been confirmed.


----------



## ETinCYQX

I think what pisses me off the most is that, thanks to these jokers, the thirteen years I've spent approaching my black belt test in January means nothing. I've seen it personally too, and it makes me physically sick. I try to be an example for the new guys in our school because I am a senior belt. As a senior belt, no matter how useless I think it is, I should be able to stick that tornado kick headshot and make it look effortless. A senior belt should make the beginners go "I want to do that." And then, I go online and see things like this. Master ****ing Awesome indeed.

Also, my instructor drives an ancient Mercedes. Not even a nice one, just a ten-odd year old car. The provincial master drives a four or five year old pickup truck, and he works a full time job aside from his TKD. The man does more hours in TKD than most people do in full time work, for a while he drove 4+ hours to teach a class, he's the reason people like myself can perform in this art, and despite being at least twice my age he's an example of technique and aggression. This is what a TKD master and cheif instructor should be, and it's disappearing. 

:soapbox:

Sorry for my rant. I may be too cynical for my own good. I will count myself as one of the lucky ones and, wherever I go in martial arts from here, I'll count my TKD education as possibly the best I could have gotten.


----------



## bluewaveschool

ETinCYQX said:


> I think what pisses me off the most is that, thanks to these jokers, the thirteen years I've spent approaching my black belt test in January means nothing. I've seen it personally too, and it makes me physically sick. I try to be an example for the new guys in our school because I am a senior belt. As a senior belt, no matter how useless I think it is, I should be able to stick that tornado kick headshot and make it look effortless. A senior belt should make the beginners go "I want to do that." And then, I go online and see things like this. Master ****ing Awesome indeed.
> 
> Also, my instructor drives an ancient Mercedes. Not even a nice one, just a ten-odd year old car. The provincial master drives a four or five year old pickup truck, and he works a full time job aside from his TKD. The man does more hours in TKD than most people do in full time work, for a while he drove 4+ hours to teach a class, he's the reason people like myself can perform in this art, and despite being at least twice my age he's an example of technique and aggression. This is what a TKD master and cheif instructor should be, and it's disappearing.
> 
> :soapbox:
> 
> Sorry for my rant. I may be too cynical for my own good. I will count myself as one of the lucky ones and, wherever I go in martial arts from here, I'll count my TKD education as possibly the best I could have gotten.




Can you explain that first part to me?  How can your instruction mean nothing?


----------



## granfire

I read it that the antics of the illustrious 'Masters' do cheapen the achievements of the gruntlings.

But in all seriousness: When ever I read a thread like that it makes the mothership (my former organization) look pretty damn good, even with the latest nonsense they pulled out of thin air, including 'bumping' a company man up to 8th degree...


----------



## terryl965

Man everybody just get a Hot Chocolate machine and but a BMW, that is the way of a true Master in TKD.


----------



## Archtkd

ETinCYQX said:


> I think what pisses me off the most is that, thanks to these jokers, the thirteen years I've spent approaching my black belt test in January means nothing. I've seen it personally too, and it makes me physically sick. I try to be an example for the new guys in our school because I am a senior belt. As a senior belt, no matter how useless I think it is, I should be able to stick that tornado kick headshot and make it look effortless. A senior belt should make the beginners go "I want to do that." And then, I go online and see things like this. Master ****ing Awesome indeed.


I'm lost. I don't get the rant. Who decides what your 13 years of training and your belt seniority mean to you? I'd think you'd be happy if you've been doing honest work in the dojang over that period of time.


----------



## granfire

terryl965 said:


> Man everybody just get a Hot Chocolate machine and but a BMW, that is the way of a true Master in TKD.



BMW?! 
chump!
I thought we aimed for a Bentley! 

but I likez the hot chocolate! Do we get marshmallows?


----------



## terryl965

granfire said:


> BMW?!
> chump!
> I thought we aimed for a Bentley!
> 
> but I likez the hot chocolate! Do we get marshmallows?


 
Of course for an extra charge.......


----------



## miguksaram

granfire said:


> BMW?!
> chump!
> I thought we aimed for a Bentley!


He didn't put in a Black Belt Club yet for the Bentley.


----------



## miguksaram

ETinCYQX said:


> I think what pisses me off the most is that, thanks to these jokers, the thirteen years I've spent approaching my black belt test in January means nothing.


What do "these jokers" have to do with your black belt test?



> I've seen it personally too, and it makes me physically sick. I try to be an example for the new guys in our school because I am a senior belt. As a senior belt, no matter how useless I think it is, I should be able to stick that tornado kick headshot and make it look effortless.


What makes you physically sick?  Also are you saying that if you can not land a tornado kick to the head then you are not deserving of being a black belt?  Wow...a lot of pioneers with us today should strip themselves of a black belt according to that logic.



> A senior belt should make the beginners go "I want to do that." And then, I go online and see things like this. Master ****ing Awesome indeed.


 
You are right a senior belt should motivate the juniors.  However, physically being about to execute a "tornado kicks" shouldn't be the only means in which to do so.  Are you saying the 50 or 60 year old masters and grandmasters should step out in the ring and spar at tournaments in order to motivate their juniors? 



> Also, my instructor drives an ancient Mercedes. Not even a nice one, just a ten-odd year old car. The provincial master drives a four or five year old pickup truck, and he works a full time job aside from his TKD. The man does more hours in TKD than most people do in full time work, for a while he drove 4+ hours to teach a class, he's the reason people like myself can perform in this art, and despite being at least twice my age he's an example of technique and aggression. This is what a TKD master and cheif instructor should be, and it's disappearing.


Well my instructor drives a 7 year old Lexus...So what?  Are you saying that successful TKD business owners should not drive cars that they can afford?  Or are you automatically equating that if you are a successful martial art business owner then you are ripping off your students?



> Sorry for my rant. I may be too cynical for my own good. I will count myself as one of the lucky ones and, wherever I go in martial arts from here, I'll count my TKD education as possibly the best I could have gotten.


I'm glad you are happy with you TDK education but what does your rant have to do with anything?


----------



## ETinCYQX

granfire said:


> I read it that the antics of the illustrious 'Masters' do cheapen the achievements of the gruntlings.
> 
> But in all seriousness: When ever I read a thread like that it makes the mothership (my former organization) look pretty damn good, even with the latest nonsense they pulled out of thin air, including 'bumping' a company man up to 8th degree...



Exactly what I meant as far as how it affects my belt. I could walk in and fail because I didn't work enough, and yet how will my KKW black belt be any different than a KKW black belt Master Awesome awards? Same certificate, same papers, same rank. The difference in skill will have to be my justification, I guess. It still cheapens the rank somehow for me. 

The tornado kick was meant as an example, not any type of concrete standard. Same with the cars. I don't know anyone who runs a TKD school who makes big money. I'm sure there are good rich TKD instructors out there but I don't know any. 

As far as sparring in tournaments goes, if that's what the school does, then why not? Barring physical limitations of course.


----------



## miguksaram

ETinCYQX said:


> Exactly what I meant as far as how it affects my belt. I could walk in and fail because I didn't work enough, and yet how will my KKW black belt be any different than a KKW black belt Master Awesome awards? Same certificate, same papers, same rank. The difference in skill will have to be my justification, I guess. It still cheapens the rank somehow for me.


 
I guess I just didn't get enough coffee in my system this morning but I still don't get where you are going with this.  Are you saying those who received their Instructor certs through this course are less qualified than you because of where you got your instructor cert?

Why would you allow any outside source affect your view point about your own rank?  I worked hard for my KKW Black Belt.  If John Do merely had to go in an do a couple of punches and call it a day for his, then good for him.  It doesn't cheapen my rank at all.  I know what I did to earn what I earned.  Last year, at 38 years old, I tested for my Shorei-ryu black belt.  It was a grueling 4 hour test which nearly killed me.  Guess what, it was not as hard as the 8 hours black belt test my senior had to take back when he was 25.  Does that mean his rank is cheapen because my test was "easier"?



> As far as sparring in tournaments goes, if that's what the school does, then why not? Barring physical limitations of course.


Then perhaps you can answer me how many world championship boxing matches has Manny Paquiano's coach won in the past few years since he has been training him?  How many has he won in his life time?  Now how many great fighters has trained to become top competitors?


----------



## ETinCYQX

miguksaram said:


> Why would you allow any outside source affect your view point about your own rank?  I worked hard for my KKW Black Belt.  If John Do merely had to go in an do a couple of punches and call it a day for his, then good for him.  It doesn't cheapen my rank at all.  I know what I did to earn what I earned.



That's exactly it. It bothers me and it probably won't stop bothering me any time soon. Not the first time we've had differing views and the world never ended before. 



miguksaram said:


> Then perhaps you can answer me how many world championship boxing matches has Manny Paquiano's coach won in the past few years since he has been training him?  How many has he won in his life time?  Now how many great fighters has trained to become top competitors?



Martial arts teacher =/= competition coach. It's not the same dynamic IMO and lots of guys I know spar at 50-60 years old. An instructor's still a high level black belt, after all.


----------



## miguksaram

ETinCYQX said:


> Martial arts teacher =/= competition coach. It's not the same dynamic IMO and lots of guys I know spar at 50-60 years old. An instructor's still a high level black belt, after all.


I know a lot of guys who do as well.  I also know a lot of guys who don't and are quite capable of doing so.  So does this mean they should be stripped of their belt because they are not motivating the juniors by going out and doing it themselves?


----------



## ETinCYQX

...No. All I want to get across is that a black belt should exhibit skill a junior belt can aspire to. My original point was that I felt as a high level belt I should be a model in technique and power for beginning students, and I see that lacking pretty often. I'm sure you've seen high ranking black belts with terrible technique too.


----------



## msmitht

Ok. This thread has gone way off course and is old. However....wait for it...
YOU ARE AWESOME!!!!!!!!!

Next week the usat will attempt to hold a KKW instructor seminar. There will be five instructors for more than one hundred forty (as of yesterday) participants. I heard that numbers were low so they are issuing
Certs to first, second and third dans to boost attendance. The first one hundred to sign up get a free dobok . What about the rest? Are they really going to have nearly 50 in school doboks and the rest in matching seminar doboks?
I will be attending of course. I already have the 3rd class but I wil take any opportunity to train with the WTA instructors.
It will be shorter than the one in chigago. I wonder how it will go?


----------



## granfire

naturally we expect a full report on your AWESOMENESS!!!!!!!!!

^_^


----------



## bluewaveschool

Can I learn the required forms, show up and test for a BB cert?


----------



## bluewaveschool

because if I could, that would be AWESOME!!!!!


----------



## miguksaram

bluewaveschool said:


> Can I learn the required forms, show up and test for a BB cert?


For USAT I believe you have to meet the requirement of the check clearing before you pass. ha.ha.ha


----------



## terryl965

I wonder if they will have a course on Hot Chocolate and the money that can be nade from it......


----------



## IcemanSK

Im warming up my Bentley as we speak


----------



## bluewaveschool

I'm just gonna have to convince my school to go KKW so we can get Bentleys.


----------



## d1jinx

msmitht said:


> Ok. This thread has gone way off course and is old. However....wait for it...
> YOU ARE AWESOME!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Next week the usat will attempt to hold a KKW instructor seminar. There will be five instructors for more than one hundred forty (as of yesterday) participants. I heard that numbers were low so they are issuing
> Certs to first, second and third dans to boost attendance. The first one hundred to sign up get a free dobok . What about the rest? Are they really going to have nearly 50 in school doboks and the rest in matching seminar doboks?
> I will be attending of course. I already have the 3rd class but I wil take any opportunity to train with the WTA instructors.
> It will be shorter than the one in chigago. I wonder how it will go?


 
Dont worry, I am absolutely positive they will be selling the dobuk to everyone who didnt get it for free.....

Also.... wow, I wish i had 480 to pay for a 200 seminar
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.. jokin... sortof...  I understand why you want to take it though... the KKW instructors are rather impressive and every chance to learn from them should be taken.

I would like to be a fly on the wall and watch it...  I'm not sure if it would be worth taking, depending on the size of the venue... I mean not that USAT isn't known for sqeezing 300 BBs into a room where everyone is stepping on eachother and getting little to *NO *1 on 1 time.:erg:

Please let us know how it goes. 

oh.... You Are Awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## msmitht

Of course I will be reporting on the event. 

Dunno if they will be selling hot coco. It might be cold in O.C.. 

No you can not show up, learn the forms and get a cert. This is supposed to be for people who already know them, or at least think that they do. Not a BB Exam either.

Maybe I should rent a limo for the trip up/down. That would be a riot.


----------



## msmitht

d1jinx said:


> Dont worry, I am absolutely positive they will be selling the dobuk to everyone who didnt get it for free.....
> 
> Also.... wow, I wish i had 480 to pay for a 200 seminar
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .. jokin... sortof...  I understand why you want to take it though... the KKW instructors are rather impressive and every chance to learn from them should be taken.
> 
> I would like to be a fly on the wall and watch it...  I'm not sure if it would be worth taking, depending on the size of the venue... I mean not that USAT isn't known for sqeezing 300 BBs into a room where everyone is stepping on eachother and getting little to *NO *1 on 1 time.:erg:
> 
> Please let us know how it goes.
> 
> oh.... You Are Awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


no.....
*YOU ARE AWESOME!!!*


----------



## d1jinx

msmitht said:


> Maybe I should rent a limo for the trip up/down. That would be a riot.


 
Have it pick you up and drop you off at the front door each day.... I bet you would get some 1 on 1 time then.  

THAT WOULD BE AWESOME


----------



## bluewaveschool

Obviously I'd learn them before I showed up.


----------



## msmitht

bluewaveschool said:


> Obviously I'd learn them before I showed up.


Of course. The seminar is mainly to make sure that all of the schools are teaching the basic's correctly. Poomsae, movement (chunjin, hoojin, etc). They go over class management and basic first aid. In Chicago they spent a lot of time on requirements for Dan grades. 
It should be fun...and...wait for it...
AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## chrispillertkd

Not to take away from the sheer awesomeness of this thread, but what are the KKW requirements for the various Dan levels, besides the different poomsae?

Pax,

Chris


----------



## Archtkd

terryl965 said:


> I wonder if they will have a course on Hot Chocolate and the money that can be nade from it......


 
Are you forgetting the lecture on how to sell water, organize Taekwondo dance teams and design poomsae training programs that guarantee your students will seek private lessons -- because there is no way they can learn poomsae in regular class, under said program.


----------



## msmitht

Archtkd said:


> Are you forgetting the lecture on how to sell water, organize Taekwondo dance teams and design poomsae training programs that guarantee your students will seek private lessons -- because there is no way they can learn poomsae in regular class, under said program.


OMG! I had totally forgotten about that. The most unbearable part of the USTC Chicago seminar was this local guy, who was leaving to pick up a new Bently, who had his TKD dance team perform. I just do not like it. Call me prude. 
Then he told us how much money he makes off of the kids who pay to be in his demo team and make money on specific TKD dance competitions. It was hilarious to see the look on everyones faces, especially the parents of the kids who heard it all.


----------



## granfire

msmitht said:


> OMG! I had totally forgotten about that. The most unbearable part of the USTC Chicago seminar was this local guy, who was leaving to pick up a new Bently, who had his TKD dance team perform. I just do not like it. Call me prude.
> Then he told us how much money he makes off of the kids who pay to be in his demo team and make money on specific TKD dance competitions. It was hilarious to see the look on everyones faces, especially the parents of the kids who heard it all.



Maybe he'll be there and you can give us an update on him....he might have had to scale down to a Lexus...


----------



## IcemanSK

msmitht said:


> OMG! I had totally forgotten about that. The most unbearable part of the USTC Chicago seminar was this local guy, who was leaving to pick up a new Bently, who had his TKD dance team perform. I just do not like it. Call me prude.
> Then he told us how much money he makes off of the kids who pay to be in his demo team and make money on specific TKD dance competitions. It was hilarious to see the look on everyones faces, especially the parents of the kids who heard it all.



I have a friend who teaches a few miles from said "local guy" who had told me he was bad. I'd never believed the "local guy" was as bad as he was until I heard the garbage from his own mouth! Yep, he's THAT bad.


----------



## d1jinx

IcemanSK said:


> I have a friend who teaches a few miles from said "local guy" who had told me he was bad. I'd never believed the "local guy" was as bad as he was until I heard the garbage from his own mouth! Yep, he's THAT bad.


 
Soooo.... he was......

NOT AWESOME


----------



## granfire

d1jinx said:


> Soooo.... he was......
> 
> NOT AWESOME




Sir, I have to respectfully disagree: 
He is an awesome example of what not to do! So he is still awesome, just not in capital letters....


----------



## d1jinx

granfire said:


> Sir, I have to respectfully disagree:
> He is an awesome example of what not to do! So he is still awesome, just not in capital letters....


 
hahahaha...

thats just plain awesome


----------



## Miles

I too saw that the USAT was going to host a FIC.  While I agree, it is always a great opportunity to train with the excellent GMs of the WTA, I can't help notice that the USAT is essentially jumping on a bandwagon that the USTC started.  I guess a good idea is always a good idea regardless of who thought of it first.


----------



## d1jinx

Miles said:


> I too saw that the USAT was going to host a FIC. While I agree, it is always a great opportunity to train with the excellent GMs of the WTA, I can't help notice that the USAT is essentially jumping on a bandwagon that the USTC started. I guess a good idea is always a good idea regardless of who thought of it first.


 
But WOW... 2 times the price.... 

The USTC deal was a very good deal.  Almost felt like I underpaid for the experience because it was SO ggreat..

I wonder if the USAT-MAC will come close??  Or will it be like the last KKW-MAC event.... Not that it was bad, just poorly planned.  Not enough room, or instructors to interact with the attendees.


----------



## msmitht

The master in Chicago that we are referring to is a great businessman. I am sure that he was a good teacherat some point. He just went too far in my eyes. This seems to be the most difficult part of our business. How do we make good money without selling out? I have seen 5 tkd schools close in my area in just 3 months. They were al good korean instructors, masters and gm's. They were too rigid. The ata schools are making a kiling (krav maga and the new, laughable, ata mma). I run my dojang out of my friends bjj academy and have 96 students. Go figure.
Good instructor + hard work = success!


----------



## KarateMomUSA

msmitht said:


> I will be attending of course. I already have the 3rd class but I wil take any opportunity to train with the WTA instructors.


Does the WTA stand for World TKD Academy?


----------



## dowan50

MSUTKD said:


> That was NOT a Kukkiwon Instructors Course.....more to come.


 
Also the first Seminars were held early in 2010 by USTC, while I did not agree with the  sales pitch of tkd is all about numbers and money in the for pay dojang even a comment was made that said if you don't operate like this you belong teaching in a garage however that was the speakers opinion who go put down later by the head coach of the demo team for that state location who after performing a good quality demonstration mentioned oh by the way we do train at my garage and other locations colleges ect. 

But education was good and there was a very serious emphasis on PoomSe GM Kwan the head PoomSe Instructor for the KKW was very good and helpful. For the most part it was a wonderful experience and I would continue to do refreshers every one or two years. Interested in seeing who the new instructors will be since the KKW change.

This is a new thing in the US but USTC has its heart in the right place not its pocket book.


----------



## Archtkd

msmitht said:


> The master in Chicago that we are referring to is a great businessman. I am sure that he was a good teacherat some point. He just went too far in my eyes. This seems to be the most difficult part of our business. How do we make good money without selling out? I have seen 5 tkd schools close in my area in just 3 months. They were al good korean instructors, masters and gm's. They were too rigid. The ata schools are making a kiling (krav maga and the new, laughable, ata mma). I run my dojang out of my friends bjj academy and have 96 students. Go figure.
> Good instructor + hard work = success!


 
I think we all have to agree Taekwondo dojangs will always be different and serve different markets, just like we have diverse brands of restaurants, bookstores, clothes stores, etc. serving different customers The said gentleman's model, which he tried to apply to all markets, could never work in some areas. One of the biggest problems with his lecture at the KKW course in Chicago was that he assumed he was talking to a class of naive teenage instructors at a northwest Chicago suburban dojang.


----------



## bluewaveschool

I would like to train with an old school, rigid Korean GM.


----------



## miguksaram

dowan50 said:


> Also the first Seminars were held early in 2010 by USTC, while I did not agree with the sales pitch of tkd is all about numbers and money in the for pay dojang even a comment was made that said if you don't operate like this you belong teaching in a garage however that was the speakers opinion who go put down later by the head coach of the demo team for that state location who after performing a good quality demonstration mentioned oh by the way we do train at my garage and other locations colleges ect.
> 
> But education was good and there was a very serious emphasis on PoomSe GM Kwan the head PoomSe Instructor for the KKW was very good and helpful. For the most part it was a wonderful experience and I would continue to do refreshers every one or two years. Interested in seeing who the new instructors will be since the KKW change.
> 
> This is a new thing in the US but USTC has its heart in the right place not its pocket book.


 
The first seminars hosted by the USTC was held in 2009.  This is where that "master" spoke.  The master that spoke about how to make money was a flake caring only about his next bentley payment more than how to do do good training with his own students, which, by the way, he had several break away from him because of his practices.  

I have also had several of his black belt kids come into our school to sign up.  Their skills reflected that of a student who was pushed through their ranks simply to make money and nothing more.  They were the ipidomy of "Congratulations kid, your parents' check cleared.  Here's your black belt."

To my knowledge he was not invited back to teach at the 2010 seminars in Chicago.


----------



## miguksaram

d1jinx said:


> But WOW... 2 times the price....
> 
> The USTC deal was a very good deal. Almost felt like I underpaid for the experience because it was SO ggreat..


 
No one will ever stop you for paying more the next time.   ha.ha.ha..


----------



## IcemanSK

miguksaram said:


> The first seminars hosted by the USTC was held in 2009.  This is where that "master" spoke.  The master that spoke about how to make money was a flake caring only about his next bentley payment more than how to do do good training with his own students, which, by the way, he had several break away from him because of his practices.
> 
> I have also had several of his black belt kids come into our school to sign up.  Their skills reflected that of a student who was pushed through their ranks simply to make money and nothing more.  They were the ipidomy of "Congratulations kid, your parents' check cleared.  Here's your black belt."
> 
> To my knowledge he was not invited back to teach at the 2010 seminars in Chicago.



As I said, a friend of mine runs a dojang in a neighboring town. He tells me that when he gets this guy's former students, they are ruined for TKD because they've been given a BB after a short amount of training. 
Several of us at Chicago 2009 wondered out loud what his students' parents thought as they listened to him say (in front of them, mind you) how he fleeces them! I'm glad to here that some have found a home with you folks.


----------



## miguksaram

IcemanSK said:


> As I said, a friend of mine runs a dojang in a neighboring town. He tells me that when he gets this guy's former students, they are ruined for TKD because they've been given a BB after a short amount of training.
> Several of us at Chicago 2009 wondered out loud what his students' parents thought as they listened to him say (in front of them, mind you) how he fleeces them! I'm glad to here that some have found a home with you folks.


 
Thank you.  I can honestly say it was the teachings that they were receiving, becuase the kids themselves have some great raw talent to work with and they are coming along quite well.  

Who is your friend in their area?  Might be someone I know as well.


----------



## IcemanSK

miguksaram said:


> Thank you.  I can honestly say it was the teachings that they were receiving, becuase the kids themselves have some great raw talent to work with and they are coming along quite well.
> 
> Who is your friend in their area?  Might be someone I know as well.




Richard Temmerman in Elburn, IL. He's a good man & a good MA-ist.


----------



## msmitht

So tomorrow I leave for a meet and greet in orange county and then seminar time! Honestly can't wait. My gm passed in 97 and his son quit teaching shortly after. Looking forward to some mat time anspending time with my fellow master instructors. From what I hear there are plenty of people going. More than 60 under 4th dan though. I wonder what their masters and gms will say when they come back doing the poomsae the "right" way.
 Derrik kwak is scheduled to be a guest speaker. He runs a large school in simi valley I think. Definatley better than bill cho in the technique department. Used to not llike him cause he tried to steal my employee but now see it as a compliment.
I will report starting tomorrow night. You are awesome!


----------



## d1jinx

msmitht said:


> So tomorrow I leave for a meet and greet in orange county and then seminar time! Honestly can't wait. My gm passed in 97 and his son quit teaching shortly after. Looking forward to some mat time anspending time with my fellow master instructors. From what I hear there are plenty of people going. More than 60 under 4th dan though. I wonder what their masters and gms will say when they come back doing the poomsae the "right" way.
> Derrik kwak is scheduled to be a guest speaker. He runs a large school in simi valley I think. Definatley better than bill cho in the technique department. Used to not llike him cause he tried to steal my employee but now see it as a compliment.
> I will report starting tomorrow night. You are awesome!


 
Derrick is a good friend of mine and has definately made an awesome school the "right" way. I was in AWE when I saw what he has accomplished. Yes he has a LARGE school in Simi-valley. You should check it out so you can see what he has done. He definatley will add some benefit to the course and I'm positive he wont ty to tell you to sell HOT CHOCOLATE... 

Best of luck and look forward to the update.


----------



## miguksaram

d1jinx said:


> Derrick is a good friend of mine and has definately made an awesome school the "right" way. I was in AWE when I saw what he has accomplished. Yes he has a LARGE school in Simi-valley. You should check it out so you can see what he has done. He definatley will add some benefit to the course and I'm positive he wont ty to tell you to sell HOT CHOCOLATE...
> 
> Best of luck and look forward to the update.


 
Yes, Mst. Kwak is a very nice gentleman and a great techer.  He opened up a branch school in my town under Mst. Jeon and I was working with Mst. Jeon to help them get things started.  I met Mst. Kwak and he was just a very humble and well spoken man.  The school that they opened up here gathered 160 students within one year.   One of the main instructors at the Naperville school recently did a master's test.  Here are the highlights:  



.


----------



## msmitht

So I am checked in. There seemed to be some issue with my application. They did not understand why I was taking the course (3rd) again when I am not eligible for my 6th dan til next year. Got that straightened out. Nice room with Jacuzzi for cheap group rate. A former colleague of mine was checking everyone in. He told me that there were over 200 registered. Good to see so many Master Instructors in attendance. 
Lunch and dinner were not included in the original price and I had to buy some chits for $60. Aparently no one contacted the catering manager in advance. They tried to sell me a 2nd dobok for $80. Not a bad idea but they did not have it there. Said the would ship it next week. Does not do me much good then, does it? Besides, Mooto/Sang moo sa is my main supplier and I can get the dobok, minus the kkw patch, for around $18. Looked at the ballrooms. Kinda small. Reminds me of chicago but with more people.
More tomorrow.


----------



## msmitht

Report on the USAT/MAC Kukkiwon Instructors Course :

Let me start by saying there was more positive than negative today. We started the day at 7:30am in a small meeting room. We were split between those over 3rd dan and those who were just here for the one day course (kkw 2nd or 1st or no KKW dan). Took 30 min to get set up for Pic outside in parking lot.
The first class was a lecture on the function and role of KKW. Good history/info lesson by head of World TKD Academy (WTA). Best Quote "We can humbly say that we are the best martial art in the world". I think the Gracies might have something to say to that one...
We were then treated to 3 hours of training "Standard techniques" by WTA trainer, GM In Sik Hwang. He is one of the guys in the new Poomsae videos. This was left out of the Chicago course. Went over EVERYTHING. Stances, kicks, strikes, blocks and the meanings behind said techniques(30 min while in chairs and the rest practicing w/many needing correction). It was a sweat fest. I got many compliments

After lunch, which was NOT included as we were led to believe (catered by hotel consisting of hot dogs and hamburgers), we spent 5 hours on Poomsae. We got even sweatier still. Great training. The 6th dans went to a local dojang to practice. I was told by my friend that the talked about poomsae for 4 hours and practiced for 25 min..  

After Dinner , which was a little better, we went over the NEW testing regulations w/JW Kang (KKW). FYI : THEY ARE GOING TO START MAKING SIPJIN A 5TH DAN REQUIREMENT. Starting in February, as we were told, only those posessing a KKW master liscence will be able to order KKW certs. Those who have not attended the course will be S.O.O.L.. I think gms will be the exception. They are also going to start revoking dan certs and liscences of those who are found to be not following the new standards and those who are cheating the system by ordering certs for those who can not otherwise get them.
Example : A master or GM owns a couple of schools run by 1st, 2nd or 3rd dans and is not present at their testing but still orders the certs. That master or gm can, by the new rules, have his dan cert/liscence revoked. There would be a trickle down effect to all of his students, students students, etc. All eyes were wide open when we heard that. 
The same would apply to those who tarnish the name and image of tkd and those not teachin kkw/TKD but issuing dan/poom certs. The speaker insinuated that Felons would be treated the same. About time if you ask me.

After many questions we went on to the History of tkd with GM JP Choi. OMFG! I almost burst out laughing in the beginning. He started with how life begins, LITERALLY! The struggle between several million sperm to reach the egg. Some are fast, some are slow. The fight their way...Whipping oponnents with their tail....maybe a kick here or there....I cant go on. It was too funny. 
He did get to the history of tkd eventually. He covered the history in Korea and in the US. Very detailed.  Finished about 20 minutes ago.
First day done and I am beat. Til tomorrow night.
*YOU ARE AWESOME!!!*


----------



## KarateMomUSA

msmitht said:


> Report on the USAT/MAC Kukkiwon Instructors Course :
> After many questions we went on to the History of tkd with GM JP Choi. OMFG! I almost burst out laughing in the beginning. He started with how life begins, LITERALLY! The struggle between several million sperm to reach the egg. Some are fast, some are slow. The fight their way...Whipping oponnents with their tail....maybe a kick here or there....I cant go on. It was too funny.
> He did get to the history of tkd eventually. He covered the history in Korea and in the US. Very detailed.  Finished about 20 minutes ago.
> First day done and I am beat. Til tomorrow night.


Great info, thank you so much & please keep us posted. I would really appreciate if you gave us more details on how they presented the history of TKD.

Also can one process KKW Dan applications with just a 4th Dan KKW?
Or do you need a separate KKW Masters license?
If so what is that & how do you get one?

(For instance in the ITF you need to be an 1) ITF 4th Dan or above, 2) successfully complete an ITF International Instructors Course & 3) pay for your International Instructors Certificate, which is serial numbered to an individual)


----------



## msmitht

KarateMomUSA said:


> Great info, thank you so much & please keep us posted. I would really appreciate if you gave us more details on how they presented the history of TKD.
> 
> Also can one process KKW Dan applications with just a 4th Dan KKW?
> Or do you need a separate KKW Masters license?
> If so what is that & how do you get one?
> 
> (For instance in the ITF you need to be an 1) ITF 4th Dan or above, 2) successfully complete an ITF International Instructors Course & 3) pay for your International Instructors Certificate, which is serial numbered to an individual)


He went over the original martial arts of Korea that date back 6000 years. talked about how they were all but lost during the Japanese occupation. Told us that originally he learned Karate but then later they added tae kyon moves and radically changed what they were doing to create tkd.
Starting this year you need a 4th dan and a KKW inst. license to process/order up to 4th dan.
You have read this post, right? To get licensed you have to attend an instructors course and pass the physical and written test.


----------



## KarateMomUSA

msmitht said:


> He went over the original martial arts of Korea that date back 6000 years. talked about how they were all but lost during the Japanese occupation. Told us that originally he learned Karate but then later they added tae kyon moves and radically changed what they were doing to create tkd.
> Starting this year you need a 4th dan and a KKW inst. license to process/order up to 4th dan.
> You have read this post, right? To get licensed you have to attend an instructors course and pass the physical and written test.


Yes & thank you, as the above post clarified things for me nicely.
I will post a new topic, as not derail this one, with GM Choi Joon Pyo written essay on the history of TKD. I believe he is or was a USAT MAC Commissioner. I think this is the same GM JP Choi that gave the lecture. Please correct me if I am mixed up, OK?


----------



## Master Dan

miguksaram said:


> The first seminars hosted by the USTC was held in 2009. This is where that "master" spoke. The master that spoke about how to make money was a flake caring only about his next bentley payment more than how to do do good training with his own students, which, by the way, he had several break away from him because of his practices.
> 
> I have also had several of his black belt kids come into our school to sign up. Their skills reflected that of a student who was pushed through their ranks simply to make money and nothing more. They were the ipidomy of "Congratulations kid, your parents' check cleared. Here's your black belt."
> 
> To my knowledge he was not invited back to teach at the 2010 seminars in Chicago.


 
Thank you for the above he also lectured everyone on the fact they were not to be to involved with students helping them related to life issues in fact he stated you are not thier friends don't get involved after 6 pm go home leave it. This was also carried on by anther lecturer in a seperate class delving with psychology, behavior and abuse issue. Some people wanted real answer in how to deal and help and what to do also legal responsibility. The speaker was unqualified and frankly had a hands off aproach. Many people in the class had more experience and did not agree with the speakers aproach and it got so out of hand with discussion that they had to stop taking questions. But there was still alot of useful information for those who did not have much experience running a DoJang especialy with records.

However the discussion was very helpful to many who had questions and made other think to study more.

The whole aspect of the Instructor Manual was very business based


----------



## leadleg

msmitht said:


> Report on the USAT/MAC Kukkiwon Instructors Course :
> 
> Let me start by saying there was more positive than negative today. We started the day at 7:30am in a small meeting room. We were split between those over 3rd dan and those who were just here for the one day course (kkw 2nd or 1st or no KKW dan). Took 30 min to get set up for Pic outside in parking lot.
> The first class was a lecture on the function and role of KKW. Good history/info lesson by head of World TKD Academy (WTA). Best Quote "We can humbly say that we are the best martial art in the world". I think the Gracies might have something to say to that one...
> We were then treated to 3 hours of training "Standard techniques" by WTA trainer, GM In Sik Hwang. He is one of the guys in the new Poomsae videos. This was left out of the Chicago course. Went over EVERYTHING. Stances, kicks, strikes, blocks and the meanings behind said techniques(30 min while in chairs and the rest practicing w/many needing correction). It was a sweat fest. I got many compliments
> 
> After lunch, which was NOT included as we were led to believe (catered by hotel consisting of hot dogs and hamburgers), we spent 5 hours on Poomsae. We got even sweatier still. Great training. The 6th dans went to a local dojang to practice. I was told by my friend that the talked about poomsae for 4 hours and practiced for 25 min..
> 
> After Dinner , which was a little better, we went over the NEW testing regulations w/JW Kang (KKW). FYI : THEY ARE GOING TO START MAKING SIPJIN A 5TH DAN REQUIREMENT. Starting in February, as we were told, only those posessing a KKW master liscence will be able to order KKW certs. Those who have not attended the course will be S.O.O.L.. I think gms will be the exception. *They are also going to start revoking dan certs and liscences of those who are found to be not following the new standards and those who are cheating the system by ordering certs for those who can not otherwise get them*.
> Example : A master or GM owns a couple of schools run by 1st, 2nd or 3rd dans and is not present at their testing but still orders the certs. That master or gm can, by the new rules, have his dan cert/liscence revoked. There would be a trickle down effect to all of his students, students students, etc. All eyes were wide open when we heard that.
> *The same would apply to those who tarnish the name and image of tkd and those not teachin kkw/TKD but issuing dan/poom certs.* The speaker insinuated that Felons would be treated the same. About time if you ask me.
> 
> After many questions we went on to the History of tkd with GM JP Choi. OMFG! I almost burst out laughing in the beginning. He started with how life begins, LITERALLY! The struggle between several million sperm to reach the egg. Some are fast, some are slow. The fight their way...Whipping oponnents with their tail....maybe a kick here or there....I cant go on. It was too funny.
> He did get to the history of tkd eventually. He covered the history in Korea and in the US. Very detailed. Finished about 20 minutes ago.
> First day done and I am beat. Til tomorrow night.
> *YOU ARE AWESOME!!!*


I would hope this will lay to rest the idea that you should award KKW certificates to those who do not know the requirements, or to those that do not teach the requirements. Those that do should be extra careful not to put it in writing that they are doing just that, putting themselves in the same boat as felons.


----------



## Archtkd

msmitht said:


> Report on the USAT/MAC Kukkiwon Instructors Course :
> 
> Let me start by saying there was more positive than negative today. We started the day at 7:30am in a small meeting room. After lunch, which was NOT included as we were led to believe (catered by hotel consisting of hot dogs and hamburgers), we spent 5 hours on Poomsae. We got even sweatier still. Great training. The 6th dans went to a local dojang to practice. I was told by my friend that the talked about poomsae for 4 hours and practiced for 25 min..
> 
> After Dinner , which was a little better, we went over the NEW testing regulations w/JW Kang (KKW). FYI : THEY ARE GOING TO START MAKING SIPJIN A 5TH DAN REQUIREMENT. Starting in February, as we were told, only those posessing a KKW master liscence will be able to order KKW certs. Those who have not attended the course will be S.O.O.L.. I think gms will be the exception. They are also going to start revoking dan certs and liscences of those who are found to be not following the new standards and those who are cheating the system by ordering certs for those who can not otherwise get them.


 
Wow! sound like you are having a ball. The changes are also fairly radical. It seem like USTC, to its credit, pushed through some serious KKW reforms, which USAT-MAC might now claim to be its initiative.


----------



## leadleg

Why would you say the USTC has anything to do with any reforms? 
The USTC was very active in trying to keep the KKW out of the hands of the very people who are now in control.
 I believe most of what we are hearing as news is also news to the USAT and USTC.


----------



## leadleg

msmitht said:


> Report on the USAT/MAC Kukkiwon Instructors Course :
> 
> Let me start by saying there was more positive than negative today. We started the day at 7:30am in a small meeting room. We were split between those over 3rd dan and those who were just here for the one day course (kkw 2nd or 1st or no KKW dan). Took 30 min to get set up for Pic outside in parking lot.
> The first class was a lecture on the function and role of KKW. Good history/info lesson by head of World TKD Academy (WTA). Best Quote "We can humbly say that we are the best martial art in the world". I think the Gracies might have something to say to that one...
> We were then treated to 3 hours of training "Standard techniques" by WTA trainer, GM In Sik Hwang. He is one of the guys in the new Poomsae videos. This was left out of the Chicago course. Went over EVERYTHING. Stances, kicks, strikes, blocks and the meanings behind said techniques(30 min while in chairs and the rest practicing w/many needing correction). It was a sweat fest. I got many compliments
> 
> After lunch, which was NOT included as we were led to believe (catered by hotel consisting of hot dogs and hamburgers), we spent 5 hours on Poomsae. We got even sweatier still. Great training. The 6th dans went to a local dojang to practice. I was told by my friend that the talked about poomsae for 4 hours and practiced for 25 min..
> 
> After Dinner , which was a little better, we went over the NEW testing regulations w/JW Kang (KKW).* FYI : THEY ARE GOING TO START MAKING SIPJIN A 5TH DAN REQUIREMENT.* Starting in February, as we were told, only those posessing a KKW master liscence will be able to order KKW certs. Those who have not attended the course will be S.O.O.L.. I think gms will be the exception. They are also going to start revoking dan certs and liscences of those who are found to be not following the new standards and those who are cheating the system by ordering certs for those who can not otherwise get them.
> Example : A master or GM owns a couple of schools run by 1st, 2nd or 3rd dans and is not present at their testing but still orders the certs. That master or gm can, by the new rules, have his dan cert/liscence revoked. There would be a trickle down effect to all of his students, students students, etc. All eyes were wide open when we heard that.
> The same would apply to those who tarnish the name and image of tkd and those not teachin kkw/TKD but issuing dan/poom certs. The speaker insinuated that Felons would be treated the same. About time if you ask me.
> 
> After many questions we went on to the History of tkd with GM JP Choi. OMFG! I almost burst out laughing in the beginning. He started with how life begins, LITERALLY! The struggle between several million sperm to reach the egg. Some are fast, some are slow. The fight their way...Whipping oponnents with their tail....maybe a kick here or there....I cant go on. It was too funny.
> He did get to the history of tkd eventually. He covered the history in Korea and in the US. Very detailed. Finished about 20 minutes ago.
> First day done and I am beat. Til tomorrow night.
> *YOU ARE AWESOME!!!*


 Sipjin has always been a 5th requirement in our school,and my instructors school also.I do understand that in Korea Koryo is not a 1st dan requirement but here in the states competition always required that as 1st dan form.


----------



## puunui

leadleg said:


> I would hope this will lay to rest the idea that you should award KKW certificates to those who do not know the requirements, or to those that do not teach the requirements. Those that do should be extra careful not to put it in writing that they are doing just that, putting themselves in the same boat as felons.




I don't know about the felon part, but in my opinion, it would be foolish for the Kukkiwon to institute this type of thing. It has far reaching implications, which I don't believe you have really thought through. For example, if the rules were enforced ten years ago, I don't believe Steven Lopez or any of the Lopez family would have qualified for the Olympics, because they would not have been able to receive Kukkiwon certification. My understanding is that they came from an ITF background and don't practice or know the Taeguek poomsae. In fact, their Kukkiwon certification may have to be revoked at this point. That goes for a whole lot of people out there who are issuing Kukkiwon certification but are doing poomsae outside of the Taeguek poomsae. Or even if you are doing the Taeguek poomsae, are you doing them according to the Kukkiwon standard. 

This doesn't even address the requirement for a Kukkiwon Instructor license in order to recommend candidates for Kukkiwon certification, which the overwhelming majority of teachers in the US do NOT have. 

However, if I were thinking about myself only, then I would say I am in good shape because I have satisfied all the requirements myself, and by making it harder for people to obtain or issue Kukkiwon certification, then my own position, which already is limited to very few American borns, has just gotten that much more exclusive. 

These new rules screw most people. We'll see how long they are enforced, if they are ever enforced at all.


----------



## leadleg

puunui said:


> I don't know about the felon part, but in my opinion, it would be foolish for the Kukkiwon to institute this type of thing. It has far reaching implications, which I don't believe you have really thought through. For example, if the rules were enforced ten years ago, I don't believe Steven Lopez or any of the Lopez family would have qualified for the Olympics, because they would not have been able to receive Kukkiwon certification. My understanding is that they came from an ITF background and don't practice or know the Taeguek poomsae. In fact, their Kukkiwon certification may have to be revoked at this point. That goes for a whole lot of people out there who are issuing Kukkiwon certification but are doing poomsae outside of the Taeguek poomsae. Or even if you are doing the Taeguek poomsae, are you doing them according to the Kukkiwon standard.
> 
> This doesn't even address the requirement for a Kukkiwon Instructor license in order to recommend candidates for Kukkiwon certification, which the overwhelming majority of teachers in the US do NOT have.
> 
> However, if I were thinking about myself only, then I would say I am in good shape because I have satisfied all the requirements myself, and by making it harder for people to obtain or issue Kukkiwon certification, then my own position, which already is limited to very few American borns, has just gotten that much more exclusive.
> 
> These new rules screw most people. We'll see how long they are enforced, if they are ever enforced at all.


 Yes it is probably not easy to enforce, unless you are putting in writing that you are handing out KKW's just to build membership then it would be hard to refute.
 As you know in Korea you must have the instructor liscense to openly teach,I could see the KKW wanting this requirement worldwide. 
At least all KKW instructors would have to pass the requirement of proving they have no felony or other record from the police or courts.
 If you listen to what President Lee is s aying about sport only tkd then you should want the traditional values of tkd to be taught to the Lopez siblings.Otherwise we end up with more bad attitudes like Cuba has produced.
 I do not think by the way that this is any new rule,handing out KKW's without the requirements being met has never been warranted.Yes there have been some exceptions,if it is done by the KKW then they may have their reasons but this is not meant for every 4th dan to do. 
As for screwing the ones without certification, the USTC was promoting their seminars with the idea that in the US we would eventually need certification,go get certified if you own a school.


----------



## Archtkd

puunui said:


> However, if I were thinking about myself only, then I would say I am in good shape because I have satisfied all the requirements myself, and by making it harder for people to obtain or issue Kukkiwon certification, then my own position, which already is limited to very few American borns, has just gotten that much more exclusive.
> 
> These new rules screw most people. We'll see how long they are enforced, if they are ever enforced at all.


 
Weren't some of this changes in the making. Aren't some of them something that the USTC and some other orgs have been campaigning for, when they talk about declining standards of the art, rogue instructors, etc? 

I also wonder whether some Korean/Korean American Taekwondo pioneers in USAT-MAC, USTC and other orgs have not pushed for this because they are now excluded from USAT events because of the requirement that only coaches with certain USAT credentials (created by their juniors) can sit at the coaches chair at events of certain levels.  

At the KKW 17th IFC in Chicago, GM Hwa Chong, one of the guest lecturers and a pioneer, gave some interesting context to the instructor licencing process. He posed the question: What is economics? His answer was that it's the control of scarce resources, and suggested that is what those attending the Chicago course where partly doing.


----------



## Archtkd

leadleg said:


> Why would you say the USTC has anything to do with any reforms?
> The USTC was very active in trying to keep the KKW out of the hands of the very people who are now in control.
> I believe most of what we are hearing as news is also news to the USAT and USTC.


 
From its inception the USTC has been talking about declining standards, and sought the KKW licencing process to be brought in the US in order to address that. If passed, the reforms will favor the GMs at both USTC and USAT-MAC whose relevance, as far as KKW junior dan certification is concerned, has been in the wane for years.  I'm neutral on whether the reforms go through or not.


----------



## Markku P

puunui said:


> This doesn't even address the requirement for a Kukkiwon Instructor license in order to recommend candidates for Kukkiwon certification, which the overwhelming majority of teachers in the US do NOT have.



I think as world wide, most instructors don't have Kukkiwon instructor license, also I think there is some countries that it might be against their law to demand such a license.


----------



## KarateMomUSA

Markku P said:


> I think as world wide, most instructors don't have Kukkiwon instructor license, also I think there is some countries that it might be against their law to demand such a license.


I also would say that most ITF 4th Dans & above do not have the ITF Instructors certificate either, which has always been required to process black belt applications.
While it may certainly be hard to implement & enforce, I think it can have some benefit for standardization.


----------



## Archtkd

Markku P said:


> I think as world wide, most instructors don't have Kukkiwon instructor license, also I think there is some countries that it might be against their law to demand such a license.


 
I think the Kukkiwon head honchos -- under encouragement from US orgs -- are creating problems with semantics. How about if the organization stuck to what its World Taekwondo Academy has used since 1998: 1st Class, 2nd Class and 3rd Class foreign instructor certification. The Kukkiwon currently requires you be a 4th Dan certified practitioner to recommend students for Dan/Poom Kukkiwon certification. Does that requirement go against the laws of any country that is member of the WTF? 

What changes so much, from a WTF member country's legal perspective, when the Kukkiwon says it will now require 4th Dans to undergo extra training in Taekwondo and obtain instructor certificates in order to have authority to recommend their students for Dan and Poom certification? 

By the way, individual instructors of 4th- 6th Dan rank in very many countries cannot make direct recommendations for their students to obtain Kukkiwon Dan/Poom certification. That recommendation is done by National Governing Bodies (NGBs), which must be ecognized by the Kukkiwon or WTF. That applies to almost the whole of Africa, South America, Middle East and several parts of Asia.


----------



## Archtkd

Archtkd said:


> By the way, individual instructors of 4th- 6th Dan rank in very many countries cannot make direct recommendations for their students to obtain Kukkiwon Dan/Poom certification. That recommendation is done by National Governing Bodies (NGBs), which must be ecognized by the Kukkiwon or WTF. That applies to almost the whole of Africa, South America, Middle East and several parts of Asia.


 
This is what Article 5 and Article 6 of current Kukkiwon regulations state:

1. Submission of Dan promotion test applications should be made *only via the President of the Member National Association (MNA) of the WTF in nations where the MNA controls at least 70% of Taekwondo bodies and private instructors.* It is not allowed to be recommended by the individual instructors in those countries. *Individual instructors are not permitted to make personal recommendations. *

2. In those countries which do not fall into this category (herein after called "the 1st category"), applications can be submitted by both the Member National Association and independent instructors. 

3. The students who practice Taekwondo under the instruction of the instructors recognized by the Kukkiwon in the countries where are no Member National Federations affiliated with the WTF should be recommended by those instructors and submit the application along with the confirmation by the local authorities concerned in that country. 


1. In order to carry out the aforesaid tests, Member National Association will establish the following organizations.
(1).Organization for promotion test &#33278;&#45825;?&#9318;??
	

	
	
		
		

		
			











Ordinary Test CommissionOver 6th Dan HolderUnder 5th DanHigher Grade Test CommissionOver 7th Dan HolderOver 6th Dan
(2) Any Member National Association which does not have, among its members, official Kukkiwon 6th Dan or higher Dan holders should obtain approval from the Kukkiwon to carry out the testing.
(3) Promotion tests should be composed of three to ten members and they must be arranged so that they may easily 
view the testee's performance.

2. Article 6-1 will be applied if the Dan Certificates are issued only through each country's Taekwondo governing body.


----------



## Markku P

Archtkd said:


> 1. Submission of Dan promotion test applications should be made *only via the President of the Member National Association (MNA) of the WTF in nations where the MNA controls at least 70% of Taekwondo bodies and private instructors.* It is not allowed to be recommended by the individual instructors in those countries. *Individual instructors are not permitted to make personal recommendations. *



..in reality, this not happening..maný instructors are getting certificates directly from Kukkiwon..


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## Archtkd

Markku P said:


> ..in reality, this not happening..maný instructors are getting certificates directly from Kukkiwon..


 
In countries that are not classified as 1st Category? If that's the case then the Kukkiwon has not been following its own rules.


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## msmitht

Archtkd said:


> From its inception the USTC has been talking about declining standards, and sought the KKW licencing process to be brought in the US in order to address that. If passed, the reforms will favor the GMs at both USTC and USAT-MAC whose relevance, as far as KKW junior dan certification is concerned, has been in the wane for years.  I'm neutral on whether the reforms go through or not.


????the USTC talking about declining standards? Didn't they give the test answers, or at least enough to pass, to the students in Chicago right after the test form was handed out? YES, they did.
There will be no jr dan cert. Poom will be the standard for those under 15.


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## msmitht

Day 2 :
Started with 4 hours poomsae/basic movement training. VERY GOOD instruction from GM Hwang, In Sik. Lunch was half a sub, chips and water. Again, would rather have gone across street for lunch. Very upset that i had to buy food vauchers for Holiday inn (11.50).
After lunch had business management seminar. Master Kwak was informative but rushed for time. His laptop was a little slow and the presentation was disrupted numerous times. He showed many good ideas that have worked for him.
We then did another 3 hours of poomsae and had dinner. Rice, chicken and a iceberg lettuce/cucumber salad (15.50 vaucher). ugh!
We finished with another rushed lecture by Maste Kwak. He tried to finish up what he started earlier but he was cut off before he could get to TKD counseling, the course we were supposed to be hearing. I guess we are going to skip that part.
We finished a very long day with TKD instruction theory by GM Kim. I apologise that I do not know his first name. He is Jimmy Kims father. Very good. We went over what was in the manual and he gave us some good advice.
Overall a good day...except for the food.


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## KarateMomUSA

Thnak you kindly for the update. I have had similar disasters with food in the past. That is why I always try to bring a bunch of ceral bars & get some fruit. Hang in there & please continue to keep us posted. It is appreciated!


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## Archtkd

msmitht said:


> ????the USTC talking about declining standards? Didn't they give the test answers, or at least enough to pass, to the students in Chicago right after the test form was handed out? YES, they did.
> There will be no jr dan cert. Poom will be the standard for those under 15.


 
I'm talking about 1st-Dan-4th Dan not poom. Also, I was talking about USTC in the context of the whole Kukkiwon certification process and the organization's rationale or argument when promoting the same.  The  feeding of answers in Chicago it appeared was a rash decision made by the Kukkiwon. Of course questions will always be at whose behest.


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## d1jinx

msmitht said:


> ????the USTC talking about declining standards? Didn't they give the test answers, or at least enough to pass, to the students in Chicago right after the test form was handed out? YES, they did.
> There will be no jr dan cert. Poom will be the standard for those under 15.





Archtkd said:


> I'm talking about 1st-Dan-4th Dan not poom. Also, I was talking about USTC in the context of the whole Kukkiwon certification process and the organization's rationale or argument when promoting the same. The feeding of answers in Chicago it appeared was a rash decision made by the Kukkiwon. Of course questions will always be at whose behest.


 
Well, if those were the SAME questions on the test they gave us last year....they should have given us the answers. Something about the translation JUST DID NOT MAKE SENSE.... I remember trying to look up the answers in the book and thinking, WHAT THE HELL ARE THEY ASKING?????????? Sometimes KRENGLISH is hard


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## IcemanSK

I read the book they gave us in Chicago. It was unreadable. It made no sense most of the time. Others who went to Korea for the Course said the books they had there were great. I wish I could have gotten a valuable tool that I could reference later in Chicago.


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## msmitht

Day 3 : tired and sore from almost 12 hours poomsae training wit GM Hwang, In Sik.
Started at 8 with competition rules. I apologise I don't know the name od the GM who spoke. Good class with a lot of interaction. Dr. Kilian (think is his name), an s class IR, and master Gonzales assisted with good q&a. Good demo of kyungo's and gam jeom's. 
Next up was kyroogi theory and tecniques with Master Jimmy Kim. Covered all techniques and then he shared training tech's he uses for his athletes. He covered polymetrics and agility drills as well as how to deal with athletes mental state. HE WAS AWESOME!!! His attitude and demeanor made everyone at ease. No wonder he is such a great coach.
Lunch actually did not suck. Enchiladas, beans, rice and other mexican specialties. Still overpriced but decent.
Testing started at 130. No answers give to us. Entire section on tkd counseling(except for one question)was gone. Nothing about first aid either. The rest was same as before if I remember correctly. Think I aced it.
The poomsae part consisted of #7 and taebaek. Those who messed up, about 20-25, were pointed out amond the judges. I saw some of the worst side kicks. Ugh...
They told us if mistakes were made or if we did not finish in same spot we would fail.  After all were done we were told some did well, some mediocre and some that will need to repeat at next course.
As for me, I took the written course but was not called up for poomsae as I already have 3rd class and am not eligible for 2nd class for another year (after I get 6th Dan). I wanted to fo up but my name was not on list. One judge came up to me after and commended me for showing up just for the exp..
Overall the course was good. A few bumps here and there but well worth it for me. Until next time.....
YOU ARE AWESOME!!!!!


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## Archtkd

msmitht said:


> Day 3 : tired and sore from almost 12 hours poomsae training wit GM Hwang, In Sik.
> Overall the course was good. A few bumps here and there but well worth it for me. Until next time.....
> YOU ARE AWESOME!!!!!


 
Thanks for taking time to share your experience with us.


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## msmitht

Archtkd said:


> Thanks for taking time to share your experience with us.



Yvw


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## Archtkd

IcemanSK said:


> I read the book they gave us in Chicago. It was unreadable. It made no sense most of the time. Others who went to Korea for the Course said the books they had there were great. I wish I could have gotten a valuable tool that I could reference later in Chicago.


 
I have found the WTF's latest official text "The Book of Learning and Teaching Taekwondo http://www.amazon.com/Book-Teaching-Learning-Taekwondo-Publication/dp/8960690511 to be a much, much better publication than that thing we got in Chicago. You might get it from Mykick.com(Vision) for club price.


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## msmitht

There was one ugly thing that happened at the seminar. One of the GM's wives got the award for "outstanding participant". Normally I never say anything.....but....
She could not throw a proper side/front/round kick. Her wrists bent on everything. She Cursed at least twice out loud (master Jimmy Kim's eyes popped open and he covered his mouth). She was not at all of the classes. The only reason she was awarded the cert was that her husband was part of the organizing committee. There were many who deserved it. She was not one of them.


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## chrispillertkd

msmitht said:


> She Cursed at least twice out loud (master Jimmy Kim's eyes popped open and he covered his mouth).


 
This has nothing to do with the behavior of the lady in question but rather with that of Master Kim (who I still remember watching on TV in 1988!). I'm pleasantly surprised by his reaction. I find it kind of heartening, actually.

Pax,

Chris


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## msmitht

chrispillertkd said:


> This has nothing to do with the behavior of the lady in question but rather with that of Master Kim (who I still remember watching on TV in 1988!). I'm pleasantly surprised by his reaction. I find it kind of heartening, actually.
> 
> Pax,
> 
> Chris



He is a great teacher. When she said the s word he used a piece of paper to cover his mouth and opened his eyes really wide. She then proceeded to say "what? That is how we talk to our kids at home." Don't remember what she said next but there was an f bomb and everyone gave her the look and most put their hands in front of their mouths. A few people quietly said "geom jeom". Master kim carried on quickly to avoid any other outbursts. He was classy. She should have been reprimanded but te kkw officials were not in the room.


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## chrispillertkd

msmitht said:


> A few people quietly said "geom jeom".


 
:lol: That's classic!

Pax,

Chris


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## terryl965

WOW that is crazy


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## d1jinx

Funny, kindof reminds me how it is in the Military...

A Colonel (0-6) wife *thinks* _she_ is a Colonel and forgets it is her HUSBAND.... so they think they can say and do what they want and talk to whomever , however they want....

and Thats NOT AWESOME.


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## msmitht

Well now....
I was just asked to be on staff for the upcoming usat big 3, touring with the officials and assisting with classes. Dunno what to make of it. Was told that my name was brought up for a good asst to the kkw durring kibon/poomsae training. I won't get paid much but will have everything comped and will get to spend 2 weeks training every day with the gm's fromm the kukkiwon tkd academy. They are the best. 
What to do?


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## andyjeffries

msmitht said:


> will get to spend 2 weeks training every day with the gm's fromm the kukkiwon tkd academy. They are the best. What to do?



It's tricky (being associated with it if they have a mess like last time), but I'd say go for it.  You may get to help change it from within and you get 2 weeks training with the KKW Academy folks for free


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## miguksaram

msmitht said:


> Well now....
> I was just asked to be on staff for the upcoming usat big 3, touring with the officials and assisting with classes. Dunno what to make of it. Was told that my name was brought up for a good asst to the kkw durring kibon/poomsae training. I won't get paid much but will have everything comped and will get to spend 2 weeks training every day with the gm's fromm the kukkiwon tkd academy. They are the best.
> What to do?



I would take the opportunity, as long as the benefits out weigh the problems.  Who cares if it is USAT.  You have a chance to work with KKW TKD Academy AND help train good people.  We can not always spite the citizens for the act of their government.


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## IcemanSK

msmitht said:


> Well now....
> I was just asked to be on staff for the upcoming usat big 3, touring with the officials and assisting with classes. Dunno what to make of it. Was told that my name was brought up for a good asst to the kkw durring kibon/poomsae training. I won't get paid much but will have everything comped and will get to spend 2 weeks training every day with the gm's fromm the kukkiwon tkd academy. They are the best.
> What to do?



As long as you don't talk about hot chocolate or your Bentley, you'll be fine. Seriously though, it sounds like an opportunity for good things.


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## msmitht

IcemanSK said:


> As long as you don't talk about hot chocolate or your Bentley, you'll be fine. Seriously though, it sounds like an opportunity for good things.



Don't have a bently....rotfllol! I think I will go for it


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## yorkshirelad

Tez3 said:


> Well I don't know much about your laws but as I'm reading this in England, English law would stand, no 12 is actually libellous and if TF wanted to bring a case here against you he'd win. :boing2:


 
How would he win? In a court of law you'd have to measure Twinnie's percentage of bodyfat. Then you'd have to enclose him in a dense paperbag, and have him kick his way out of it. This is not libellous, it is ridicullous! If you can bring a lawsuit against someone for a statement like this in the UK, then it's a sorry state of affairs!


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## yorkshirelad

Blimey, I didn't realize how old this thread was!


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