# Social Sanctions in Taekwondo Class



## Desmadona (Oct 19, 2016)

Hello,
I belong to a Taekwondo community and attend several classes each week taught by different instructors. I'm trying to learn to live the martial way, but I have to admit, I have a strong tendency to voice my opinions and am dangerously close to doing so in one of the classes I attend.

The instructor of this class relies on social sanctions in the form of group punishment and focused shame to motivate students to do their absolute best. This instructor comes from a military background and is using his military experience to control his class. He threatens to stop the entire class during floor drills  [to focus their attention on you] if you don't do things to his satisfaction. He  will make you sit down if you look at him while doing punching drills (instead of your imaginary opponent). He threatens to make the whole class start over again if you have lazy form on your combo drills (where we do some sort of kicking combo across the floor of the dojo). He adds time to exercises if he notices people failing, etc... Those are just the things he did in the last class I attended... he varies it from class to class.

Every time I'm faced with these ultimatums, I'm more and more tempted to stand up and give a little lecture on social sanctions and their effectiveness in long-term relationships, and then refuse to participate, which would be taken as a HUGE sign of disrespect and would definitely not be representative of the martial way.

I'm wondering what your take on using social sanctions in martial arts instruction is.
Thanks!


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## drop bear (Oct 19, 2016)

We have them. you screw up everybody pays. I dont tnink people are being mentally damaged from the process. There are probably ways to do it well and ways to do it creepy like a lot of things.


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## pgsmith (Oct 19, 2016)

I think it's the instructor's class, and he can do whatever he feels is the right thing in it. If you don't care for it, and you obviously don't, then vote with your feet. Standing up and giving a lecture to your instructor because you don't like the way he teaches is a good way to get some quick personal sparring instruction. 

  This is why I always urge people to try out different arts and dojo when they wish to practice martial arts. Each one is different, and some of them will agree with you more than others. Find one you enjoy going to and stick with it for a few decades.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 19, 2016)

It's not an approach that would work well for me.  I would leave the class and find a different teacher.

If you are tempted to speak up in the way you described, don't.  It won't end well for you.  I suggest you recognize that his approach is not a good match for you.  Find a different teacher, with a different teaching style.


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## Tez3 (Oct 19, 2016)

Ok, you may not like all of this but I'm going to be honest.



Desmadona said:


> I'm trying to learn to live the martial way



Who's definition of 'living the martial way' are you using? What do you mean by living the martial way? Are you planning on being a modern samurai ( not actually possible) for example or are you just training martial arts for fitness, self defence or competition like the rest of us.  



Desmadona said:


> social sanctions



 I'm not sure why you call them 'social' sanctions, you are training in a martial arts class, it is not a social situation, it's training.



Desmadona said:


> He will make you sit down if you look at him while doing punching drills (instead of your imaginary opponent).



Looking at your opponent is the best thing to do, you shouldn't be looking at him, if he makes you sit down then he is reminding you of this, it's important, if you don't look you won't see the punch coming. some instructors would throw that punch at you to remind you.



Desmadona said:


> He threatens to make the whole class start over again if you have lazy form on your combo drills



That's obviously the way he teaches, some people will like it some won't.



Desmadona said:


> their effectiveness in long-term relationships



You aren't in a relationship, he's a martial arts instructor you are the student.



Desmadona said:


> representative of the martial way.



What martial way? You are paying to be taught martial arts, if you don't like the instructor and feel you can't learn then leave, find a class you *enjoy. *You are making it sound like a cult, it's not you are learning martial arts, it's a contract between you and your school/gym, just the same as if you were having dance or singing lessons. As the others have said find somewhere else. And seriously think about this 'martial way' thing.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 19, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> It's not an approach that would work well for me.  I would leave the class and find a different teacher.
> 
> If you are tempted to speak up in the way you described, don't.  It won't end well for you.  I suggest you recognize that his approach is not a good match for you.  Find a different teacher, with a different teaching style.


I say, suck it up, butter cup, but that's just me.


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## Midnight-shadow (Oct 19, 2016)

Agreed with everything else said so far. I too would find that kind of instruction very intimidating and it would ruin both my enjoyment and my progression. Have you spoken to any of the other students about how you feel? If all of you feel the same way then it might be worth approaching the instructor about it. Otherwise, just leave the class and go somewhere else. If you do approach the instructor about your feelings then the middle of the class when you are frustrated and upset is NOT the time to do it. If you have concerns do it either before or after the class when you are in a good mindset and can voice your thoughts without losing control.

I would also urge you to consider looking at this from the instructor's prospective. You said he comes from a military background right? I have quite a few friends who are ex-military and most of them have a great deal of difficulty fitting back into civilian life, including how to interact with others. It's not that they are bullies and are intentionally upsetting you, it's just that they have been in that kind of system for so long that it is all they know. "Social Sanctions" as you call them are perfectly normal for ex-military personnel and the instructor may not realise the effect he is having on you.  

As a side note, I'm also curious about your "Martial Way" and what it means to you. Everyone has a different approach to their training and the Martial Arts, so it's hard to tell what you mean by this.


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## Desmadona (Oct 19, 2016)

I can't say I disagree with most of the comments so far... it is definitely HIS class. I said I FEEL like speaking up, not that I WOULD... Every class is just adding to my frustration level and if I don't stop going OR fix the issue somehow, my nature will eventually get the best of me. I figured this was a good forum in which I could get some perspective, so I thank you for your feedback. But really... sucking it up is not something I do. I wish it were... that'd most certainly be the easiest solution.

As for my definition of Martial way... It's kind of a lot to explain (not sure I have the words, really), but It's something I've been taught by a couple other instructors (who no longer teach at this school) - Basically trying to see situations through a lens of understanding based in honor, loyalty, simplicity, interconnectedness, patience and balance as opposed to the lens I was born with, which is negative, angry, selfish, frustrated, and a host of other undesirable traits. It's kind of an ideal and I should have used a different phrase instead of "Martial way" because that phrase is so... vague.

Midnight Shadow. Thank you for your assessment... some useful advice in there.


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## Midnight-shadow (Oct 19, 2016)

Desmadona said:


> I can't say I disagree with most of the comments so far... it is definitely HIS class. I said I FEEL like speaking up, not that I WOULD... Every class is just adding to my frustration level and if I don't stop going OR fix the issue somehow, my nature will eventually get the best of me. I figured this was a good forum in which I could get some perspective, so I thank you for your feedback. But really... sucking it up is not something I do. I wish it were... that'd most certainly be the easiest solution.
> 
> As for my definition of Martial way... It's kind of a lot to explain (not sure I have the words, really), but It's something I've been taught by a couple other instructors (who no longer teach at this school) - Basically trying to see situations through a lens of understanding based in honor, loyalty, simplicity, interconnectedness, patience and balance as opposed to the lens I was born with, which is negative, angry, selfish, frustrated, and a host of other undesirable traits. It's kind of an ideal and I should have used a different phrase instead of "Martial way" because that phrase is so... vague.
> 
> Midnight Shadow. Thank you for your assessment... some useful advice in there.



I see. So your Martial Way refers to the set of ideals on how to live your life, and I'm guessing respect for your teacher is one of them. To quote a bad film "the man who honours his teacher honours himself". That's all well and good but remember that at the end of the day your instructor is there to bring out the best in you, not to try and turn you into a copy of himself. If what he is doing isn't helping you then you need to let him know. It isn't disrespectful to tell your teacher if something is wrong or you don't think a method is working, as long as you do it in a respectful way (i.e. not in front of the whole class in a fit of rage).


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## Tez3 (Oct 19, 2016)

Desmadona said:


> I can't say I disagree with most of the comments so far... it is definitely HIS class. I said I FEEL like speaking up, not that I WOULD... Every class is just adding to my frustration level and if I don't stop going OR fix the issue somehow, my nature will eventually get the best of me. I figured this was a good forum in which I could get some perspective, so I thank you for your feedback. But really... sucking it up is not something I do. I wish it were... that'd most certainly be the easiest solution.
> 
> As for my definition of Martial way... It's kind of a lot to explain (not sure I have the words, really), but It's something I've been taught by a couple other instructors (who no longer teach at this school) - *Basically trying to see situations through a lens of understanding based in honor, loyalty, simplicity, interconnectedness, patience and balance* as opposed to the lens I was born with, which is negative, angry, selfish, frustrated, and a host of other undesirable traits. It's kind of an ideal and I should have used a different phrase instead of "Martial way" because that phrase is so... vague.
> 
> Midnight Shadow. Thank you for your assessment... some useful advice in there.



That's not a specific martial arts thing, it's just not a bad way to live. You can however learn to do this without martial arts.

Question...why are you training with this instructor if he's a bad fit for you? There's actually no reason for you to, you don't gel, it doesn't make either of you right or wrong just a bad fit. Like teachers at school, you didn't like all of them but there you had to put up with them. In martial arts you don't, you are paying, you are the customer so choose an instructor that is a good fit for you, that you are happy training under. The instructor is teaching you martial arts only, you may admire some qualities they have but they aren't there to teach you those qualities, not their job. Would you keep wearing a pair of shoes that didn't fit if you had other pairs to chose from that were a comfortable fit?

I'd like to ask too what you mean by 'Taekwondo community'? is it a school or gym and how do they promote themselves as a community ?


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## Desmadona (Oct 19, 2016)

Well...
Still going to this particular class because this instructor is listed as my primary instructor because this was the first class I attended - he's the one who recommends me for promotion when I'm ready to test. I say community because there are a couple of different classes per day all taught by different instructors. I can go to however many classes taught by whoever I want, which I absolutely LOVE because each instructor brings their own flavor to the training - some focus on speed, some on technique. Some focus on forms, others on sparring, and all have different knowledge bases, which makes them all valuable. And the town I live in is VERY community oriented - everyone knows everyone else and at least pretends to care. It's rather strange having grown up in a normal town where people kind of mind their own business.

I *could* ask another instructor to recommend me for promotion, but that would be like waving a bright red flag indicating something is wrong and would lead to questions I doubt anyone really wants answers to. Thus my dilemma. If I stop going to this class, there will be questions. If another teacher recommends me for promotion, this teacher will be at those tests, wondering why he didn't know I was testing... etc...


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## Tames D (Oct 19, 2016)

Edit: Never mind.


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 19, 2016)

Desmadona said:


> Well...
> Still going to this particular class because this instructor is listed as my primary instructor because this was the first class I attended - he's the one who recommends me for promotion when I'm ready to test. I say community because there are a couple of different classes per day all taught by different instructors. I can go to however many classes taught by whoever I want, which I absolutely LOVE because each instructor brings their own flavor to the training - some focus on speed, some on technique. Some focus on forms, others on sparring, and all have different knowledge bases, which makes them all valuable. And the town I live in is VERY community oriented - everyone knows everyone else and at least pretends to care. It's rather strange having grown up in a normal town where people kind of mind their own business.
> 
> I *could* ask another instructor to recommend me for promotion, but that would be like waving a bright red flag indicating something is wrong and would lead to questions I doubt anyone really wants answers to. Thus my dilemma. If I stop going to this class, there will be questions. If another teacher recommends me for promotion, this teacher will be at those tests, wondering why he didn't know I was testing... etc...



So why can't/don't you just go to this person and say "I don't think you and I are a particularly good fit, so I'm going to stop coming to your classes and ask someone else to be my primary instructor."? I mean, we're talking about adults here, right?


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 19, 2016)

Here's the truth.
If you don't like his class then train somewhere else.  There is nothing wrong with going somewhere else.  The last thing you want to do in a class like that is "speak your mind" about how you feel the class should be taught.  To say something like that is just asking for more pain.

I use group punishment to manage troubled youth behavior.  I made everyone responsible for helping each other stay on a good and productive path.  When one person allows someone to do something wrong then I make everyone pay for not keeping the other person on the right path.

Your training is the same thing.  If you don't want to do extra work because someone gets something wrong then help you classmate get it right.  It's a tough way to learn and not everyone likes it, but keep in mind you aren't being forced to attend or pay for the class.


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## drop bear (Oct 19, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> So why can't/don't you just go to this person and say "I don't think you and I are a particularly good fit, so I'm going to stop coming to your classes and ask someone else to be my primary instructor."? I mean, we're talking about adults here, right?



Or even that the social sanctions are enraging you. And mabye tone it down a bit.


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## Tames D (Oct 19, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> When one person allows someone to do something wrong then I make everyone pay for not keeping the other person on the right path.


Just curious.. When you do something wrong, do all the instructors pay for it? Just wondering


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 20, 2016)

Tames D said:


> Just curious.. When you do something wrong, do all the instructors pay for it? Just wondering


This was something that I used to do at a youth development center and not in the Kung Fu school. When I was working at the youth development center it was punishment and I singled out trouble makers and not only held them accountable but held their friends accountable.  "I am my brother's keeper."  "People who would let me do wrong aren't my friends." "Friends want the best for you not the worst."  Things like that were all learned by punishing the entire group and allowed them to build bonds outside of the center where they looked after each others's best Interest.  While I didn't punish myself, it was not fun for me either I rather spend time doing fun stuff than spending time disciplining teens.  Disciplining teens takes a lot of energy to do and to be honest it's easier to just not care, but at then it becomes costly in the long run.

In the Kung Fu school we allow people to progress at their own speed we don't have a standard that everyone must perform at a certain level.  However, if someone gets a smart mouth, then yes the Instructors pay for it as well.  For example, if a student complains about an exercises then everyone gets double of that exercise, including the instructors.  If someone gets smart and says that it's easy, then we get more of that exercise.  

Sometimes when I teach the main class, if a student can't finish a form that they know within a certain amount of time, then that person has to do push ups.  I volunteer to do push ups with the student who didn't complete the form and other students decide on their own if they want to do push ups as punishment or not.  Instead of us singling someone out, and placing blame,  everyone accepts the punishment as a supportive role (sort of like we won't let you go through the hardship alone).  To be honest what's the worst that can happen? The person who has to do push ups for getting something wrong will just get stronger.


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## Tames D (Oct 20, 2016)

@ JowGaWolf: I respect the way you operate. My question was sincere and not meant to be smartass. In post #12, I suggested to the OP that they ask the instructors to join in the punishments. But I decided to delete that post for obvious reasons. The Martial Arts group I train with are all adults and we really don't have a need to hand down punishment as we all have been doing this a long time and our attitudes are where they should be. 
However, I am an adult leader in the BSA and we do find that "suggesting" a form of punishment does get results in attitude adjustment. I never hand down a punishment that I am not willing to do myself along side them. It use to surprise them when I would get down and do the push ups or bear crawls with them. I've earned their respect and there is always an improvement in their attitudes. It works.


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## Tez3 (Oct 20, 2016)

Desmadona said:


> Well...
> Still going to this particular class because this instructor is listed as my primary instructor because this was the first class I attended - he's the one who recommends me for promotion when I'm ready to test. I say community because there are a couple of different classes per day all taught by different instructors. I can go to however many classes taught by whoever I want, which I absolutely LOVE because each instructor brings their own flavor to the training - some focus on speed, some on technique. Some focus on forms, others on sparring, and all have different knowledge bases, which makes them all valuable. And the town I live in is VERY community oriented - everyone knows everyone else and at least pretends to care. It's rather strange having grown up in a normal town where people kind of mind their own business.
> 
> I *could* ask another instructor to recommend me for promotion, but that would be like waving a bright red flag indicating something is wrong and would lead to questions I doubt anyone really wants answers to. Thus my dilemma. If I stop going to this class, there will be questions. If another teacher recommends me for promotion, this teacher will be at those tests, wondering why he didn't know I was testing... etc...




This sounds remarkable complicated for a simple martial arts school from whom you are paying for instruction. Paying to feel uncomfortable and uneasy seems to go against the grain. You are making it sound quite worrying actually, and little alarm bells are going off in my head. If you continue to attend and pay for a class that you are unhappy in because you are worried about what the instructors will say that is very wrong. How dependent are you on this martial arts school and it's instructors?  How much of a hold do they have over your views on martial arts, how it's taught and how you should live? what would happen if you left there all together and trained somewhere else?


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## drop bear (Oct 20, 2016)

Tames D said:


> Just curious.. When you do something wrong, do all the instructors pay for it? Just wondering



Ours do.  Everyone does the punishment.


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## Tez3 (Oct 20, 2016)

We don't have 'punishments', which may sound odd coming from a military club, if you are lazy and don't train properly the only one who dips out is you. You lose the respect of the others and that hurts more than any press up or 'punishment' an instructor can give. Not seen it happen because those that come to the club ( it's a hobby/sport for them albeit one encouraged by the senior officers) want to enjoy training and have enough self discipline to train properly albeit with a lot of banter civvies would find odd.


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## wingchun100 (Oct 20, 2016)

Desmadona said:


> Hello,
> I belong to a Taekwondo community and attend several classes each week taught by different instructors. I'm trying to learn to live the martial way, but I have to admit, I have a strong tendency to voice my opinions and am dangerously close to doing so in one of the classes I attend.
> 
> The instructor of this class relies on social sanctions in the form of group punishment and focused shame to motivate students to do their absolute best. This instructor comes from a military background and is using his military experience to control his class. He threatens to stop the entire class during floor drills  [to focus their attention on you] if you don't do things to his satisfaction. He  will make you sit down if you look at him while doing punching drills (instead of your imaginary opponent). He threatens to make the whole class start over again if you have lazy form on your combo drills (where we do some sort of kicking combo across the floor of the dojo). He adds time to exercises if he notices people failing, etc... Those are just the things he did in the last class I attended... he varies it from class to class.
> ...


 

I vote that you go to a different school where the teaching is a style you can truly learn from. It is his business, and he will run it how he sees fit. You are probably not the first person to dislike his teaching style. He won't change for you.


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## WaterGal (Oct 20, 2016)

Desmadona said:


> Well...
> Still going to this particular class because this instructor is listed as my primary instructor because this was the first class I attended - he's the one who recommends me for promotion when I'm ready to test. I say community because there are a couple of different classes per day all taught by different instructors. I can go to however many classes taught by whoever I want, which I absolutely LOVE because each instructor brings their own flavor to the training - some focus on speed, some on technique. Some focus on forms, others on sparring, and all have different knowledge bases, which makes them all valuable. And the town I live in is VERY community oriented - everyone knows everyone else and at least pretends to care. It's rather strange having grown up in a normal town where people kind of mind their own business.
> 
> I *could* ask another instructor to recommend me for promotion, but that would be like waving a bright red flag indicating something is wrong and would lead to questions I doubt anyone really wants answers to. Thus my dilemma. If I stop going to this class, there will be questions. If another teacher recommends me for promotion, this teacher will be at those tests, wondering why he didn't know I was testing... etc...



It might do you good to explain - politely and outside of class time - to the school owner that Mr. Social Sanction's teaching style isn't a good "fit" for you, and that you'd like to have a different teacher as your primary instructor. Don't insult the teacher, of course, but I'm sure you can make it clear that while you don't think he's a bad guy, his style is too much like a drill sergeant and  that makes you uncomfortable.

This will probably be an uncomfortable conversation for you, and may lead to some temporary tension at the school since the owner will probably have to talk to Mr Social Sanction and the other instructor about the change and why it's happening.  But if it's a good community, as long as you're respectful in your approach and handle it in private outside of class, it should just be a minor and temporary issue you all can get past.


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## FireSnake (Oct 20, 2016)

We have a friendlier form of this. One of our instructors has us side-stance run and pass the medicine balls, and if anyone drops them, we all go down for push-ups (the slow variety where we hold at the top, middle and a few inches from the ground). Thing is, we know he'd get us to do those anyway even if everyone keeps the medicine balls in the air! Fortunately, there is no "shaming" involved. For most other warmup exercises, people strive to do what they can, and if they can't do that last core-busting leg lift, there's no "punishment" as the class is composed of people with very different fitness levels. All that is ideally expected and encouraged is that people try and push to their limits, and improve.


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## JR 137 (Oct 21, 2016)

I have to ask...

Are you obligated to attend this school?  Are you obligated to attend this instructor's class?  If not, then why worry about it?  It seems as though the other students don't have a problem with it.  If you bring it up, you'll only cause problems.  The teacher shouldn't have to change his teaching style because you don't agree with it.  Vote with your feet.  If asked why you don't attend his class anymore, say your work schedule changed or say you've got other obligations that night.

If there's a genuine problem and there's several students (including you) who've got concerns greater than "I don't like how he teaches," that's another issue altogether.


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## lklawson (Oct 25, 2016)

Desmadona said:


> As for my definition of Martial way... It's kind of a lot to explain (not sure I have the words, really), but It's something I've been taught by a couple other instructors (who no longer teach at this school) - Basically trying to see situations through a lens of understanding based in honor, loyalty, simplicity, interconnectedness, patience and balance as opposed to the lens I was born with, which is negative, angry, selfish, frustrated, and a host of other undesirable traits. It's kind of an ideal and I should have used a different phrase instead of "Martial way" because that phrase is so... vague.


Sounds like Religion.  In the case of Westernized Asian Martial "Philosophy" <cough cough> it tends to simultaneously misunderstand Zen and conflate said misunderstanding to Martial pursuits.

Culturally and historically speaking, most cultures and civilizations have their own, often unique, definition of what constitutes "Martial Way."  Some are very much what I think you would consider honor bound and <ahem> socially conscious.  Some elevate and laud treachery, deceit, and theft (just ask Captain Cook!).  Some laud infanticide, rape, secret murder of unarmed civilians, and institutionalized pederasty (I'm looking at you Sparta).  It varies based on time period.  English martial culture was dramatically different in the 16th Century from what it was in the 19th.  Norse raiding culture was tightly tied to Thoristic observance and ritualistic human sacrifice, much to the dismay of many Christian heads hung in a certain Oak tree.  Heck, even within the same culture during the same time period, different Martial expressions existed.  There was a different culture for Roman Gladiators (many of whom were volunteers) from that of the Roman Army.  Late 18th Century Spanish lower social class knife dueling culture was different from the Aristocracy's sword dueling culture, even while maintaining many similarities.

For what it's worth, what you have described of the instructor is very much in line with one of the common permutations of modern western Martial Culture.

What you're looking for is simply not going to fit with how he teaches.  Don't attend his classes.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Oct 25, 2016)

JR 137 said:


> I have to ask...
> 
> Are you obligated to attend this school?  Are you obligated to attend this instructor's class?  If not, then why worry about it?  It seems as though the other students don't have a problem with it.  If you bring it up, you'll only cause problems.  The teacher shouldn't have to change his teaching style because you don't agree with it.  Vote with your feet.


Yes.  <nodding>



> If asked why you don't attend his class anymore, say your work schedule changed or say you've got other obligations that night.
> 
> If there's a genuine problem and there's several students (including you) who've got concerns greater than "I don't like how he teaches," that's another issue altogether.


No.  Absolutely not.  If asked, *BE HONEST*.  I'm assuming that this is a commercial martial arts school.  They need to make money to stay in business.  To make money, they need paying students.  If students are not attending, dropping out, going away, even if it's just because "I don't like how he teaches," that's something the Business Owner needs to know.  Maybe he's lost other students because of it.  Maybe he's lost a *LOT* of students because of it.

Look at it this way, if it was a restaurant, don't you think the owner should get a straight answer if the reason you're leaving is because you think his lasagna tastes like floor wax?

You don't have to be mean or vindictive.  You don't even have to volunteer the information.  Most people don't.  But for pete's sake, don't lie about it!

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 25, 2016)

drop bear said:


> We have them. you screw up everybody pays. I dont tnink people are being mentally damaged from the process. There are probably ways to do it well and ways to do it creepy like a lot of things.


I think they have more place in something like a sports team or a military group, where the team depends upon the actions of the members. There, social sanctions create a more direct connection between the individual's actions and the team's outcome, helping strengthen that necessary connection. I'm not sure there's much function to it in most martial arts classes.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 25, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> It's not an approach that would work well for me.  I would leave the class and find a different teacher.
> 
> If you are tempted to speak up in the way you described, don't.  It won't end well for you.  I suggest you recognize that his approach is not a good match for you.  Find a different teacher, with a different teaching style.


What I would probably do is leave, and share my feedback on the way out. As with anyone else, a good instructor can benefit from feedback.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 25, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Ok, you may not like all of this but I'm going to be honest.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


"Social sanctions" is the common term for punishing the group for an individual's actions. Like making a football team run laps because one member is late.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 25, 2016)

As an aside, one of my old instructors used 'social sanctions', and those were some of my favorite classes. The others in the class also liked it. It probably helped that there were only about 5 or 6 of us, and we were all pretty serious about training in general (so we weren't always running/doing pushups for the one guy slacking off), but it definitely does have its place, even if some don't like it.


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## Tez3 (Oct 25, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> "Social sanctions" is the common term for punishing the group for an individual's actions. Like making a football team run laps because one member is late.



LOL, I actually do know that, I wanted to find out what the OPs frame of mind is regarding the training, etc,I wanted to know why she was calling them 'social sanctions' as opposed to 'group punishments'. as I said it's a martial arts group not a social situation , I wanted to know how it was viewed in regards to the 'living the martial way' comments.


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## msmitht (Oct 25, 2016)

Sounds like an overly inflated windbag with ego issues. Don't attend his classes or leave the group. 
Or you could listen and try to do things right. If he persists after you make improvement then leave. Don't say a word, just get up and leave.


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## Buka (Oct 25, 2016)

Welcome to MartialTalk, Desmadona, hope you enjoy it.

My guess is you're fairly new to the world of Martial training, but not to worry, we all were, too. There's all kinds of training, all kinds of teachers, and all kinds of ways to run classes. Maybe this one's not for you, but, maybe, it sort of _is_. Especially if, as you said, there are other instructors who also teach and you have access to their classes as well. (the old change of pace thing) And the best thing to have in life is a choice.

You said your birth lens - i_s negative, angry, selfish, frustrated, and a host of other undesirable traits_. Okay, we all have our battles, but they are not always won by seeking the easier path. Maybe try to attend the class with an inner attitude of, "Go ahead, try to make me uncomfortable, I know your game, It will bounce right off my as I love Tae-kwon-do and excel."  At least maybe give it a shot for a couple months. Who knows, you might actually like his class better. If not, just switch.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 25, 2016)

msmitht said:


> Sounds like an overly inflated windbag with ego issues. Don't attend his classes or leave the group.
> Or you could listen and try to do things right. If he persists after you make improvement then leave. Don't say a word, just get up and leave.


Just because his approach to training isn't a fit for her, that's not a reason to suggest she should be rude to him AND the entire class.


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## lklawson (Oct 25, 2016)

msmitht said:


> Sounds like an overly inflated windbag with ego issues. Don't attend his classes or leave the group.


Not to me.  To me, it simply sounds like that's just the teaching method he learned and he sticks with it because it's natural to his personality.

Just as we learned in the 80's that there are different "Management Styles," there are also many different teaching styles.  This is his.



> Or you could listen and try to do things right. If he persists after you make improvement then leave. Don't say a word, just get up and leave.


Orrrr.... and here's a really really REALLY weird idea...

You could talk to the guy.  You know, after class one day, just ask him for a minute of his time, semi-privately.  Explain that the teaching style makes you uncomfortable and ask if that's just how he is or if he'll be willing to work with you to accommodate your style of learning?

Yeah, I know the whole idea of talking to someone directly about a potential issue just doesn't fit modern western culture and all, but...  Could be worth a shot.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 25, 2016)

I'm not a fan of that style of teaching, but some people really love it. To each their own.


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## lklawson (Oct 25, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I'm not a fan of that style of teaching, but some people really love it. To each their own.


<nods> Yeah.  The older I get, the less patience I have for the Authoritarian style of teaching. meh...

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Tez3 (Oct 25, 2016)

I'm rather more worries about the 'martial life' and the martial community part. I'd be curious ( and relieved) to know that it was just a normal martial arts school.


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 25, 2016)

lklawson said:


> <nods> Yeah. The older I get, the less patience I have for the Authoritarian style of teaching. meh...


Yeah, I can function in that sort of authoritarian setting, it doesn't upset or offend me...

... I just don't have any interest in being involved with it. I can learn the things I want to learn without having to buy into that game.


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## JR 137 (Oct 25, 2016)

lklawson said:


> Yes.  <nodding>
> 
> No.  Absolutely not.  If asked, *BE HONEST*.  I'm assuming that this is a commercial martial arts school.  They need to make money to stay in business.  To make money, they need paying students.  If students are not attending, dropping out, going away, even if it's just because "I don't like how he teaches," that's something the Business Owner needs to know.  Maybe he's lost other students because of it.  Maybe he's lost a *LOT* of students because of it.
> 
> ...



I see what you're saying about being honest.  Everything's got its time and place.

There's an instructor at my dojo who I've stopped going to her class. She's a very good person and means well, but I think she's an awful teacher.  I think she spends too much time correcting unimportant stuff, she comes in without a game plan, and she doesn't explain the drills she has us do sufficiently.  She also doesn't transition well from one thing to the next.  She loses control of the class often enough when there's younger adults/teens in class because of these things.

She's been around far longer than me and most others.  People like her class.  She's not doing anything malicious.  Any complaints about her teaching are going to be taken the wrong way.  If I were to be asked in front of people why I don't come to her class, I'd simply say it doesn't fit my schedule.  I don't see any point in stirring the pot; nothing good is going to come of it.  If my CI asked me privately how I felt about her teaching, I'd be honest.  Maybe I'm too critical because I'm a school teacher (middle science and physical education).  Maybe I see her struggle more than others do.  Maybe I see mistakes far easier.

If there was something outright malicious or harmful to the dojo, I'd point it out behind closed doors to my CI without hesitation.  Short of that, it's not my job to evaluate instructors and run back and tell my CI.  If it was my job, that would be a different story.


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## Tez3 (Oct 25, 2016)

JR 137 said:


> I see what you're saying about being honest.  Everything's got its time and place.
> 
> There's an instructor at my dojo who I've stopped going to her class. She's a very good person and means well, but I think she's an awful teacher.  I think she spends too much time correcting unimportant stuff, she comes in without a game plan, and she doesn't explain the drills she has us do sufficiently.  She also doesn't transition well from one thing to the next.  She loses control of the class often enough when there's younger adults/teens in class because of these things.
> 
> ...



I think this goes back to what was being said on another thread ( sorry can't remember at the moment which one) that in martial arts very often instructors aren't taught how to teach before being given classes to take. They know the techniques, can be very good fighters, excellent at kata/forms but not know how to pass that information on. As a teacher you will have trained, qualified and certified over at least a couple of years probably more, yet more often than not a black or brown belt grading is considered enough to be able to instruct. The student may have spent many years learning and training martial arts but instructing is very much a different subject which should be trained in itself.
A lot of people in the military are trained instructors and instructing skills are transferable between skills but military instructing tends to have a different tenor from civilian instructing.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 25, 2016)

JR 137 said:


> I see what you're saying about being honest.  Everything's got its time and place.
> 
> There's an instructor at my dojo who I've stopped going to her class. She's a very good person and means well, but I think she's an awful teacher.  I think she spends too much time correcting unimportant stuff, she comes in without a game plan, and she doesn't explain the drills she has us do sufficiently.  She also doesn't transition well from one thing to the next.  She loses control of the class often enough when there's younger adults/teens in class because of these things.
> 
> ...


In that situation, I'd likely just answer (if asked in front of others), "I'm not a great fit for her teaching style. Everyone has a teaching style, and every student has some styles that fit and some that don't." It's entirely true, and takes nothing away from her, because (as you are obviously aware) bringing up her shortcomings (as you see them) in front of anyone but her or the CI isn't helpful.


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## Kickboxer101 (Oct 25, 2016)

Desmadona said:


> Well...
> Still going to this particular class because this instructor is listed as my primary instructor because this was the first class I attended - he's the one who recommends me for promotion when I'm ready to test. I say community because there are a couple of different classes per day all taught by different instructors. I can go to however many classes taught by whoever I want, which I absolutely LOVE because each instructor brings their own flavor to the training - some focus on speed, some on technique. Some focus on forms, others on sparring, and all have different knowledge bases, which makes them all valuable. And the town I live in is VERY community oriented - everyone knows everyone else and at least pretends to care. It's rather strange having grown up in a normal town where people kind of mind their own business.
> 
> I *could* ask another instructor to recommend me for promotion, but that would be like waving a bright red flag indicating something is wrong and would lead to questions I doubt anyone really wants answers to. Thus my dilemma. If I stop going to this class, there will be questions. If another teacher recommends me for promotion, this teacher will be at those tests, wondering why he didn't know I was testing... etc...


Just go to another school all together


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## JR 137 (Oct 25, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> I think this goes back to what was being said on another thread ( sorry can't remember at the moment which one) that in martial arts very often instructors aren't taught how to teach before being given classes to take. They know the techniques, can be very good fighters, excellent at kata/forms but not know how to pass that information on. As a teacher you will have trained, qualified and certified over at least a couple of years probably more, yet more often than not a black or brown belt grading is considered enough to be able to instruct. The student may have spent many years learning and training martial arts but instructing is very much a different subject which should be trained in itself.
> A lot of people in the military are trained instructors and instructing skills are transferable between skills but military instructing tends to have a different tenor from civilian instructing.



This instructor reminds me of a former colleague of mine.  That colleague was a great tutor, but a horrible classroom teacher.  This instructor is the same thing - she's great at working individually with students in the dojo.  If you have a question, she's easily one of the first people you seek out (after the CI and his right-hand man).  But there's a big difference between working with someone one-on-one and running a class.

But again, a lot of the people in the dojo like her class.  I shouldn't make my disagreement with her teaching an issue.  Nothing good would come from it.  If she came up to me privately and asked for some pointers, I'd give her my professional opinion.  Same as if my CI asked privately.  If a few classmates discuss her teaching in the locker room,  I'll keep my mouth shut.  Unless they're saying what I think, then it'll me minimal and polite.


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## msmitht (Oct 25, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Just because his approach to training isn't a fit for her, that's not a reason to suggest she should be rude to him AND the entire class.


How was that rude? I told her that she shouldn't say anything while getting up and leaving. If she questioned him in front of the class it would have been rude. Sounds like he was the one being rude. If a beginner doesn't understand then an instructor should help, not belittle.


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## msmitht (Oct 25, 2016)

lklawson said:


> Not to me.  To me, it simply sounds like that's just the teaching method he learned and he sticks with it because it's natural to his personality.
> 
> Just as we learned in the 80's that there are different "Management Styles," there are also many different teaching styles.  This is his.
> 
> ...


Sounds to me like his style of teaching clashes with her style of learning. As he is an instructor it may be intimidating to approach him after or before class especially if she not confident.  Posing the question that way is the same as asking "are you always a dick or can you be nice and help me like an instructor should?" 
Won't help. Don't go back or at least not to his class.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 25, 2016)

msmitht said:


> How was that rude? I told her that she shouldn't say anything while getting up and leaving. If she questioned him in front of the class it would have been rude. Sounds like he was the one being rude. If a beginner doesn't understand then an instructor should help, not belittle.


The rude thing is not avoiding questioning, it's leaving in the middle of the class without a word it's obvious to everyone, and just leaves the students and sensei wondering why you suddenly left. A conversation after class explaining it, or simply telling the instructor something came up and that you have to go, then coming by later to explain, would be much better IMO then just disappearing.

From my reading, there wasn't belittling going on, it was more issues with social sanctions for 'laziness', or repeated mistakes.


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## msmitht (Oct 25, 2016)

kempodisciple said:


> The rude thing is not avoiding questioning, it's leaving in the middle of the class without a word it's obvious to everyone, and just leaves the students and sensei wondering why you suddenly left. A conversation after class explaining it, or simply telling the instructor something came up and that you have to go, then coming by later to explain, would be much better IMO then just disappearing.
> 
> From my reading, there wasn't belittling going on, it was more issues with social sanctions for 'laziness', or repeated mistakes.


He made her sit and watch him do punches in front of the entire class. OK maybe not belittling but these are paying students, not military. When I was an 0311, USMC rifleman, we were trained very hard and that type of training was the norm except you were being screamed at.
There are better ways to teach and apparently he does not know them yet.
I don't think it would leave any question as to why you left in anyone's mind and I do believe that that is far less rude than standing up and lecturing him about social sanctions as the op suggested.


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## Midnight-shadow (Oct 26, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> I think this goes back to what was being said on another thread ( sorry can't remember at the moment which one) that in martial arts very often instructors aren't taught how to teach before being given classes to take. They know the techniques, can be very good fighters, excellent at kata/forms but not know how to pass that information on. As a teacher you will have trained, qualified and certified over at least a couple of years probably more, yet more often than not a black or brown belt grading is considered enough to be able to instruct. The student may have spent many years learning and training martial arts but instructing is very much a different subject which should be trained in itself.
> A lot of people in the military are trained instructors and instructing skills are transferable between skills but military instructing tends to have a different tenor from civilian instructing.



That's a good point and one I'd never thought about before. I'm a swimming and diving teacher and although I haven't had as much teacher training as a school teacher I have had enough to be a successful teacher. I'm guessing that a lot of Martial Arts instructors have had no formal teacher training and so rely on copying their instructor. It makes me wonder though, when a big MA organisation recognises an instructor do they do it purely on their MA ability, or do they look at their actual teaching as well?


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 26, 2016)

msmitht said:


> How was that rude? I told her that she shouldn't say anything while getting up and leaving. If she questioned him in front of the class it would have been rude. Sounds like he was the one being rude. If a beginner doesn't understand then an instructor should help, not belittle.


Getting up and leaving in the middle of a class without saying a word? That is rude.

EDIT: I haven't suggested she should question him in front of class (nor has anyone else I can recall). Nothing I saw in the posts indicated he was being belittling. His teaching style is sub-optimal, and is uncomfortable for her. No reason to be rude in that context.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 26, 2016)

Midnight-shadow said:


> That's a good point and one I'd never thought about before. I'm a swimming and diving teacher and although I haven't had as much teacher training as a school teacher I have had enough to be a successful teacher. I'm guessing that a lot of Martial Arts instructors have had no formal teacher training and so rely on copying their instructor. It makes me wonder though, when a big MA organisation recognises an instructor do they do it purely on their MA ability, or do they look at their actual teaching as well?


I'm not aware of many organizations that have any sort of instructor training. The largest organization in NGA requires student teaching prior to shodan (as do all the other mainstream organizations and independent schools, so far as I know), but there's no organized instructor curriculum. It's an area I've been looking sideways at for a long time, since my background is in training and development. I've started putting together an instructor training curriculum for Shojin-ryu, but I've got a few years before I'll have any use for it. I've even contemplated offering instructor training seminars to groups outside NGA.


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## Tez3 (Oct 26, 2016)

msmitht said:


> How was that rude? I told her that she shouldn't say anything while getting up and leaving. If she questioned him in front of the class it would have been rude. Sounds like he was the one being rude. If a beginner doesn't understand then an instructor should help, not belittle.



The problem is one of perception though, the rest of the class may well feel he's not being rude. We could go into the class and see something completely different and the way he teaches perhaps isn't as one student describes it but how they see it.
If a student left in the middle of one of my classes without sating anything my first instinct would be to stop the class for a couple of minutes to have another take over so I could check the student wasn't ill and needed help. I'm not a brilliant instructor but it wouldn't occur to me that the student walked out because they didn't like my teaching style after attending many classes with me before. During a first class perhaps but not after a length of time.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 26, 2016)

msmitht said:


> He made her sit and watch him do punches in front of the entire class.


So, this right here shows that the class may not be what either of us are reading. I read it as "if someone is not paying attention during punching drills, they are asked to sit", not "I had to sit down in front of the class and watch the instructor." With that much variation just interpreting her words of how the class is run, can you see how we can't make any concrete statements about the instruction itself since we have not witnessed it?


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 26, 2016)

kempodisciple said:


> So, this right here shows that the class may not be what either of us are reading. I read it as "if someone is not paying attention during punching drills, they are asked to sit", not "I had to sit down in front of the class and watch the instructor." With that much variation just interpreting her words of how the class is run, can you see how we can't make any concrete statements about the instruction itself since we have not witnessed it?


That's how I read it, too. It sounded to me like a slightly overcooked response to what could be construed as a safety issue (students not paying attention). If I were in the class, I'd find it a bit awkward to be in the room (either sitting or having someone else sit) the first time or two, but it didn't sound like anything awful. But as you point out, that was just my reading, and it might have been more uncomfortable than that.


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## lklawson (Oct 26, 2016)

msmitht said:


> Sounds to me like his style of teaching clashes with her style of learning.


That's what I said.



> As he is an instructor it may be intimidating to approach him after or before class especially if she not confident.  Posing the question that way is the same as asking "are you always a dick or can you be nice and help me like an instructor should?"
> Won't help. Don't go back or at least not to his class.


Mule muffins.  It's the same as going to a restaurant and sending back a steak which isn't cooked right.  No one believes that is the equivalent of saying, "Are you always a bad cook or can you fix mine right?"  It's exactly the same thing as saying, "this isn't what I wanted."  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Midnight-shadow (Oct 26, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I'm not aware of many organizations that have any sort of instructor training. The largest organization in NGA requires student teaching prior to shodan (as do all the other mainstream organizations and independent schools, so far as I know), but there's no organized instructor curriculum. It's an area I've been looking sideways at for a long time, since my background is in training and development. I've started putting together an instructor training curriculum for Shojin-ryu, but I've got a few years before I'll have any use for it. I've even contemplated offering instructor training seminars to groups outside NGA.



In the UK we have the Amateur Martial Association (AMA), where in order to be recognised as an instructor with them you:



> must be of contractual age (18) and hold an approved Dan or equivalent. They must have AMA indemnity insurance and approved current qualification and certification in coaching, first aid, child protection (if instructing any) and DBS ( via AMA) . New entrants must supply photocopies of Dan grades and or certificates and if these are from unknown sources then we may require to assess the applicant by one of our designated officers. New entrants are classed as provisional members in the first 12 months and must fit the AMA criteria following their first years membership.



Does the US have an equivalent of this?


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## msmitht (Oct 26, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Getting up and leaving in the middle of a class without saying a word? That is rude.
> 
> EDIT: I haven't suggested she should question him in front of class (nor has anyone else I can recall). Nothing I saw in the posts indicated he was being belittling. His teaching style is sub-optimal, and is uncomfortable for her. No reason to be rude in that context.


Re read the op


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 26, 2016)

Midnight-shadow said:


> In the UK we have the Amateur Martial Association (AMA), where in order to be recognised as an instructor with them you:
> 
> 
> 
> Does the US have an equivalent of this?


Not really.


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## msmitht (Oct 26, 2016)

Midnight-shadow said:


> In the UK we have the Amateur Martial Association (AMA), where in order to be recognised as an instructor with them you:
> 
> 
> 
> Does the US have an equivalent of this?


LOL. not at all. I've seen 14 year olds teaching other teens and adults. ridiculous, isn't it?


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## Tez3 (Oct 26, 2016)

Midnight-shadow said:


> In the UK we have the Amateur Martial Association (AMA), where in order to be recognised as an instructor with them you



Well no, 'we' don't have it. It is one of many *businesses* that organise insurance, certificates, grading books and advise on things like health and safety, child protection agencies etc. _They don't recognise all instructors only those that pay to use them._ There are many other organisations that do the same, none of them are authorities that can recognise instructors as being 'qualified' other than because the instructors above them say they are or they pay to register. Other organisations which are the same are NAKMAS, FEKO, BMABA, WMIAA, UKASKO,WAKO,BCA, etc etc.
Your instructors have signed up with AMA, it doesn't mean they are actually qualified instructors I'm afraid just that they chose to join that business to get their insurance etc.


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## lklawson (Oct 26, 2016)

msmitht said:


> LOL. not at all. I've seen 14 year olds teaching other teens and adults. ridiculous, isn't it?


Only if they can't teach the material they've been asked to.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 26, 2016)

msmitht said:


> Re read the op


Having reread the OP after hour posta, I fully agree with his statement that he was being belittling.


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## Buka (Oct 26, 2016)

I've been taking Martial Arts classes for a long time, still take them to this day. Can't recall how many different people taught classes, wouldn't even hazard a guess. Can't recall one I didn't care for, not even the drill instructor type, which really isn't my style. Sure, I enjoy some more than others, no-brainer there, but I'm not there to "like" anybody. While in class - it's for _me_, not him. By continuing to take classes, I not only grow, I absorb various nuances of teaching style, communication skills, see and feel things I might not have felt had I stopped taking classes - regardless of who the hell is teaching.

This mean man of an instructor, who we've been vilifying that crap out of....

What's your guess as to how long this poster's actually been training? A month? Three? Let's look at some of the things they said to us - which I'm sure is as truthful and accurate as an abacus, and not slanted in anyway what-so-ever in their favor.

_"Every time I'm faced with these ultimatums, I'm more and more tempted to stand up and give a little lecture on social sanctions and their effectiveness in long-term relationships, and then refuse to participate"

"But really... sucking it up is not something I do. I wish it were... that'd most certainly be the easiest solution"

"as opposed to the lens I was born with, which is negative, angry, selfish, frustrated, and a host of other undesirable traits"

" I can go to however many classes taught by whoever I want,"_

Maybe we should take what they've said with a grain of salt. Haven't heard back from them since day one, anyway. Who knows, maybe they marched into class the next day and demanded......a Shrubbery!


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## lklawson (Oct 26, 2016)

Buka said:


> This mean man of an instructor, who we've been vilifying that crap out of....


We have?  I'm under the impression that most of the replies have been along the lines of, "That's his teaching style.  Suck it up, talk to him, or don't take his classes."  Most of the replies don't seem to be particularly vilifying to me.  <shrug>

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 26, 2016)

kempodisciple said:


> Having reread the OP after hour posta, I fully agree with his statement that he was being belittling.


This was a typo. Meant wasn't belittling...that's what happens when I try posting on my phone.


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## Midnight-shadow (Oct 26, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Well no, 'we' don't have it. It is one of many *businesses* that organise insurance, certificates, grading books and advise on things like health and safety, child protection agencies etc. _They don't recognise all instructors only those that pay to use them._ There are many other organisations that do the same, none of them are authorities that can recognise instructors as being 'qualified' other than because the instructors above them say they are or they pay to register. Other organisations which are the same are NAKMAS, FEKO, BMABA, WMIAA, UKASKO,WAKO,BCA, etc etc.
> Your instructors have signed up with AMA, it doesn't mean they are actually qualified instructors I'm afraid just that they chose to join that business to get their insurance etc.



Yes it is a business but at the same time they have standards to follow, meaning if you learn under a student that is ratified with the AMA, they will at least have the basics of a DBS check, some kind of coaching qualification and first aid qualifications. That's about as good as it gets without proper government authority stepping in, and it's a hell of a lot better than nothing at all. I've been part of similar situations and organisations in the past that work in a very similar manner. For example as a scuba diving instructor I was a member of PADI, and as a swimming teacher I am a member of the Amateur Swimming Association. They make sure that I teach in a safe manner and that I keep all my qualifications and training up to date.


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## Tez3 (Oct 26, 2016)

Midnight-shadow said:


> Yes it is a business but at the same time they have standards to follow, meaning if you learn under a student that is ratified with the AMA, they will at least have the basics of a DBS check, some kind of coaching qualification and first aid qualifications. That's about as good as it gets without proper government authority stepping in, and it's a hell of a lot better than nothing at all. I've been part of similar situations and organisations in the past that work in a very similar manner. For example as a scuba diving instructor I was a member of PADI, and as a swimming teacher I am a member of the Amateur Swimming Association. They make sure that I teach in a safe manner and that I keep all my qualifications and training up to date.



Anyone who works or teaches children has to have a DBS here.
The AMA as I said isn't the only organisation that does all this, I don't know any martial arts class/school or gym that doesn't belong to one of them. When you posted up you gave the impression that is was the only organisation that does this and was officially recognised.


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## lklawson (Oct 27, 2016)

Midnight-shadow said:


> Yes it is a business but at the same time they have standards to follow, meaning if you learn under a student that is ratified with the AMA, they will at least have the basics of a DBS check, some kind of coaching qualification and first aid qualifications.


The YMCA does that.  The USJA does that.  Lots of orgs do that.  Just not the government.



> That's about as good as it gets without proper government authority stepping in,


"Proper government authority?"  Government regulation of martial arts?  That's a terrible idea.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 27, 2016)

lklawson said:


> The YMCA does that.  The USJA does that.  Lots of orgs do that.  Just not the government.
> 
> "Proper government authority?"  Government regulation of martial arts?  That's a terrible idea.


I agree that many groups do try to validate. This is difficult to do, however. The YMCA I have been teaching at (not as an employee - had an agreement to use the space) didn't validate anything. The rec center I'm moving to validated my rank, but that consisted of me sending them a copy of my promotion certificate. The organization I ranked under didn't issue instructor certificates (it was understood within the org that shodan was teaching certification - student teaching was part of the requirement for that rank), so nothing I gave them shows I'm certified to teach. And that rank is not valid for what I teach now - the ranking system for Shojin-ryu doesn't align with the ranking system for mainline NGA.

This all, of course, is why it would be a bad idea for government to try to regulate this.


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## lklawson (Oct 27, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I agree that many groups do try to validate. This is difficult to do, however. The YMCA I have been teaching at (not as an employee - had an agreement to use the space) didn't validate anything. The rec center I'm moving to validated my rank, but that consisted of me sending them a copy of my promotion certificate. The organization I ranked under didn't issue instructor certificates (it was understood within the org that shodan was teaching certification - student teaching was part of the requirement for that rank), so nothing I gave them shows I'm certified to teach. And that rank is not valid for what I teach now - the ranking system for Shojin-ryu doesn't align with the ranking system for mainline NGA.
> 
> This all, of course, is why it would be a bad idea for government to try to regulate this.


The Y requires a background check so they're certain they're not employing a pedo, rapist, or murderer.  Also required a super-basic certification in Concussion from NFHS.  USJA requires a separate background check and a super-basic certification in Concussions from the CDC.  No, the USJA won't accept the NFHS cert and the Y doesn't seem to accept the CDC cert. 

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Tez3 (Oct 27, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> The rec center I'm moving to validated my rank, but that consisted of me sending them a copy of my promotion certificate



That's what all the organisations do here, you send them your certificates and some money and voila you're accredited. A lot of them do their own gradings but of course they are only valid in that organisation.
Many sports organisations such as British Judo are recognised by Sports England/Scotland, (a government agency which promotes sports and sporting events to get more public awareness and participation, it helps with funding etc.) and the Olympic Committee but none are regulated or run by the government. They wouldn't want the bother, there's enough to do with 'Brexit' lol.


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## WaterGal (Oct 27, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I agree that many groups do try to validate. This is difficult to do, however. The YMCA I have been teaching at (not as an employee - had an agreement to use the space) didn't validate anything. The rec center I'm moving to validated my rank, but that consisted of me sending them a copy of my promotion certificate. The organization I ranked under didn't issue instructor certificates (it was understood within the org that shodan was teaching certification - student teaching was part of the requirement for that rank), so nothing I gave them shows I'm certified to teach. And that rank is not valid for what I teach now - the ranking system for Shojin-ryu doesn't align with the ranking system for mainline NGA.
> 
> This all, of course, is why it would be a bad idea for government to try to regulate this.



There's no way the government could regulate martial arts instructors in terms of their _martial arts teaching_ qualifications, for exactly the reasons you mention, but..... I think it wouldn't be unreasonable for a local government to expect that people who teach children (whether it's martial arts or softball or dance or whatever) get a background check and maybe have taken a basic sports safety class. I think that could potentially be done without being excessively burdensome.


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## Tez3 (Oct 27, 2016)

WaterGal said:


> There's no way the government could regulate martial arts instructors in terms of their _martial arts teaching_ qualifications, for exactly the reasons you mention, but..... I think it wouldn't be unreasonable for a local government to expect that people who teach children (whether it's martial arts or softball or dance or whatever) get a background check and maybe have taken a basic sports safety class. I think that could potentially be done without being excessively burdensome.



People who work with children and vulnerable young people in any capacity are required here to have a DBS check. It is a government scheme in conjunction with the police.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 27, 2016)

WaterGal said:


> There's no way the government could regulate martial arts instructors in terms of their _martial arts teaching_ qualifications, for exactly the reasons you mention, but..... I think it wouldn't be unreasonable for a local government to expect that people who teach children (whether it's martial arts or softball or dance or whatever) get a background check and maybe have taken a basic sports safety class. I think that could potentially be done without being excessively burdensome.


That wouldn't be an issue. I'm not sure it solves a real problem, but it would certainly put parents' minds at ease at very little cost.


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## drop bear (Oct 27, 2016)

Buka said:


> I've been taking Martial Arts classes for a long time, still take them to this day. Can't recall how many different people taught classes, wouldn't even hazard a guess. Can't recall one I didn't care for, not even the drill instructor type, which really isn't my style. Sure, I enjoy some more than others, no-brainer there, but I'm not there to "like" anybody. While in class - it's for _me_, not him. By continuing to take classes, I not only grow, I absorb various nuances of teaching style, communication skills, see and feel things I might not have felt had I stopped taking classes - regardless of who the hell is teaching.
> 
> This mean man of an instructor, who we've been vilifying that crap out of....
> 
> ...



Where i won't waste my time with toxic personalities in an activity i am choosing to pursue. I don't need their skill that badly.


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## Tez3 (Oct 28, 2016)

As we haven't experienced taking a class under the instructor the OP dislikes so much we can't really tell what his teaching style is. The OP may well be a young teenager in a class of teenagers who mess around and that has made him decide on that teaching style for that class. Perhaps that class has the instructor it deserves.


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## Buka (Oct 28, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Where i won't waste my time with toxic personalities in an activity i am choosing to pursue. I don't need their skill that badly.



I wouldn't waste my time with a toxic personality, either. Don't know many who would.


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## mograph (Feb 16, 2022)

All good advice. I suggest three things:

realize that your legs are shock absorbers. Keep your joints flexible as you move, and let your muscles absorb impact.  You do need to control the firmness, so it's not an entirely passive thing.
when you're doing drills, try to keep your head at the same level -- no bouncing. this will lead you to use the absorption in point 1.
be aware of which foot is taking weight, and be ready to push off that foot at any time. When you do push off, distribute the effort through your entire body if you can.
One more thing, if you have time: try dance lessons, keeping points 1 and 2 in mind.


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## _Simon_ (Feb 17, 2022)

mograph said:


> All good advice. I suggest three things:
> 
> realize that your legs are shock absorbers. Keep your joints flexible as you move, and let your muscles absorb impact.  You do need to control the firmness, so it's not an entirely passive thing.
> when you're doing drills, try to keep your head at the same level -- no bouncing. this will lead you to use the absorption in point 1.
> ...


Awesome advice! I do feel perhaps it was maybe meant for this thread... 🤣





__





						Exercises for being more light-footed?
					

Although I'm quite pleased with my progress in learning the basics, I'm still coming up against a limitation: being a bit heavy-footed. As footwork is so foundational, I wanted to tap the experts here on what exercises I could do on my own to be a little less like a human slab of lead and more...



					www.martialtalk.com


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## mograph (Feb 18, 2022)

_Simon_ said:


> Awesome advice! I do feel perhaps it was maybe meant for this thread... 🤣
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Holy crap! How did that happen?
Not light-footed, but light-headed, clearly.


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## Holmejr (Feb 18, 2022)

I’ve only been in one school like that and it was also a TKD school. The instructor was not an exceptional fighter and he didn't create  exceptional fighters. I suppose if he was exceptional I would have been more inclined to follow his hard core ways but he wasn’t so I hit the road and joyously never looked back.


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## Gyakuto (Feb 23, 2022)

Heaven’s forbid we be treated like educated, adults while learning Budo.🙄


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