# Protocol mishap or fashion faux pas?



## shesulsa (Apr 22, 2012)

Greetings, TKDin.

I was seated at a local restaurant which is situated very near a popular (and expensive) TKD school.  We were wrapping up dessert when in walked two women (I'd say in their 40s) wearing their full dobaks and belts, carrying Coach purses and mat shoes.  Ironically, the words "Black Belt Club" was emblazoned upon the lower rear panel of their dobaks (appearing as though on their butts).

Once seated, they arose again, walking all the way across the restaurant to view the dessert display case, and then back across to be seated where they ate their entire meals and eventually departed still wearing their uniforms.

I really thought virtually every martial art carried the protocol that you do not go out and about in your uniform, let alone *eat* in it! 

Please know I'm not trying to start anything nasty, but I noticed that most of the people I see out and about in full uniform are usually from Tae Kwon Do schools!  Since I train in a Korean art as well, I thought protocol such as this is native to the country of origin ... am I wrong here?

Do you and/or your students go out and about in your uniforms and belts? Eat in them???

Thanks!


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## ETinCYQX (Apr 22, 2012)

I've done that a lot. Mostly when I was competing.

Training like an athlete, it's necessary sometimes. You have limited opportunities to get food into you.


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## ralphmcpherson (Apr 22, 2012)

Im with you on this one. I wont go anywhere other than the dojang in anything that looks even remotely martial arts related. In fact, I was on my way home from class one night and my wife asked me to stop in and get some milk and bread on the way home. I still had my kick pants on but had a t shirt on instead of the dobok top and I flatly refused to get out of the car and go into the shops. She didnt understand it, and still has a go at me about it to this day. On another occasion I was out at the football on a cold winters night and was only wearing at t shirt and I was freezing. I had our nice warm club jacket in my car but I decided I would rather freeze to death than parade around in a martial arts jacket. Some people think Im crazy, but to me its just a hard and fast rule.


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## Gnarlie (Apr 22, 2012)

Unacceptable at my club in the UK, and not something I would do here in Germany either, for the following reasons:

1) The Dobok has special philosophical significance and should be treated as special

but even if that wasn't true

2) It's both cold and smelly in a sweaty dobok

and

3) Certainly where I lived in the UK, I likely would get challenges over what I was wearing from the local youth element, which could easily escalate

and

4) The way that those kids in dobok conduct themselves in the supermarket reflects on the club.  It just doesn't look good from a PR perspective.

There is ALWAYS time to change clothes.  It takes 2 minutes.

The worst thing I sometimes see is seeing people smoking in a dobok, which just feels wrong somehow.


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## mastercole (Apr 22, 2012)

shesulsa said:


> restaurant which is situated very near a *popular (and expensive) TKD school*.





shesulsa said:


> in walked two women (I'd say in their 40s) wearing their *full dobaks and belts, carrying Coach purses* and mat shoes.





shesulsa said:


> Ironically, the words* "Black Belt Club"* was emblazoned upon the lower rear panel of their dobaks *(appearing as though on their butts)*.





shesulsa said:


> Once seated, they arose again, walking all the way across the restaurant to view *the dessert display case*





shesulsa said:


> they ate their *entire* meals and eventually departed still wearing their uniforms.





shesulsa said:


> I really thought *virtually every martial art carried the protocol that you do not go out and about in your uniform, let alone *eat* in it!*





shesulsa said:


> but I noticed that *most of the people I see out and about in full uniform are usually from Tae Kwon Do schools!*



Taekwondo, really?



shesulsa said:


> Please know I'm not trying to start anything nasty,



Oh, OK


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## Tez3 (Apr 22, 2012)

The TKD club near us also has people wandering around the supermarket, McDonalds etc in thier uniforms. Only our children wear gis and they are told to change them before they leave or to put jackets/hoodies and tracksuits trousers over, for safety's sake as much as anything else. However I was told by a chap who does TKD here that they are encouraged to wear their kit outside as it's advertising for them, they wear their uniforms and belts outside, lots of patches and the name of the club in big letters on their backs. It may be advertising as hesays but not in my mind for the better, it doesn't as Gnarlie says, reflect well I think.


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## Cyriacus (Apr 22, 2012)

I think if I actually witnessed this, I would burst out laughing. I am so sorry.


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## Tez3 (Apr 22, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> I think if I actually witnessed this, I would burst out laughing. I am so sorry.



Watching small kids with overlong belts wrapped round them half a dozen times shouting 'kihap' ( who teaches that anyway, actually saying the word?) and air punching their way around supermarkets is amusing for a few seconds, then it's very annoying!


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## Jaeimseu (Apr 22, 2012)

In Korea it's quite common to see kids wearing their dobok out in the street. Many kids go from home to the dojang and back in their dobok, and sometimes that involves other stops along the way. I don't think I've ever seen adult students do this, but they tend to be coming from work and so they normally are dressed in office attire and carry a bag with their dobok. I often see instructors wearing dobok outside their dojang, walking to the corner market or going to the dojang van to pick up students.


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## andyjeffries (Apr 22, 2012)

In general reply, I wouldn't feel happy going out for a meal in my dobok nor going out on a major shopping trip, but I don't have a major issue with it for quick en-route stops.  I teach at a local junior school.  There is one toilet near the hall and no changing rooms (there are other toilets throughout the school, but I don't want the students wandering the school hall unsupervised at a weekend).  So therefore the kids and I (and my assistant) travel to/from in our doboks.  There is one child who always goes out straight after Taekwondo so he gets changed afterwards in the single toilet.

If I am on my way back from teaching and I need to stop at a small supermarket to get something in my dobok, I have no problem with it.  If I had to do an hour's shopping or something I'd go home and get changed first, but if I need to pop in and get a loaf of bread or something then it's fine.



Gnarlie said:


> Unacceptable at my club in the UK, and not something I would do here in Germany either, for the following reasons:
> 
> 1) The Dobok has special philosophical significance and should be treated as special



I disagree with this.  My dobok has no special philosophical significance.  It's the clothes I wear when performing my special art, but the clothes themselves are just stop people looking at the naked man punching and kicking.  We have a uniform in Taekwondo so everyone looks "the same" and I enforce uniform standards at my club; but we aren't a secret sect of ninja who can't let people know that we exist.



Gnarlie said:


> 2) It's both cold and smelly in a sweaty dobok



I agree with this.  When I trained at a club in the evenings with others (as opposed to teaching on a Saturday morning) I always showered afterwards and got changed.  However, even then if I had a very rare occasion when I had to stop somewhere to pick something up by a certain time and didn't have time, I would throw a coat on over the top and quickly go and then get showered at home.



Gnarlie said:


> 3) Certainly where I lived in the UK, I likely would get challenges over what I was wearing from the local youth element, which could easily escalate



On Saturday mornings there isn't much of this where I live in the UK 

If I trained on a Friday/Saturday evening it would be a bigger/real concern but on Saturday mornings and Tuesday/Thursday evenings it's not a problem.



Gnarlie said:


> 4) The way that those kids in dobok conduct themselves in the supermarket reflects on the club.  It just doesn't look good from a PR perspective.



I can see this, but what they do outside of class is not my business directly.  I try to teach them to behave respectfully, but it's down to their parents when they're in a supermarket.  Kids are kids, if people think badly of a club because kids are misbehaving (as all kids do at some points) then they are probably too narrow-minded to worry about in the first place.



Gnarlie said:


> There is ALWAYS time to change clothes.  It takes 2 minutes.



It does, but with 20+ students and one toilet, I can't really afford to waste 40+ minutes for the last one to leave to lock-up...



Gnarlie said:


> The worst thing I sometimes see is seeing people smoking in a dobok, which just feels wrong somehow.



I think smoking should be banned anyway, so this may go off-topic - but when I was younger I was always horrified when training with Korean coaches to see them go outside and smoke (it seemed to be very common amongst the coaches).


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## andyjeffries (Apr 22, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Watching small kids with overlong belts wrapped round them half a dozen times shouting 'kihap'



I don't know, but I agree I wish they'd stop.  I've had adults do it as well until I take the mickey out of them by shouting the word "SHOUT!" as I kick/punch (and then when they ask what I'm doing, I tell them I'm doing the same thing as them but in English).  They get the message pretty quickly (and because I have quite a jokey sense of humour - which is obvious when they train with me - they have, up until now, always taken it in the right way).


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## jks9199 (Apr 22, 2012)

mastercole said:


> Taekwondo, really?
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, OK



I'm lost; what point were you trying to make here, mastercole?  Shesulsa described something she saw.  It happened to involve a taekwondo school, in her case.  I've seen similar things myself; martial arts students in full uniform, running errands or grabbing a meal.  In my experience, also, it has mostly involved taekwondo schools, often but far from exclusively, children.  I can kind of see the parents dropping the kids off, then taking them home, and the kid is in uniform.  As to the mostly taekwondo -- I think that's as much a result of the huge prevalence of commercial taekwondo in my area.

Personally -- I don't like the practice of people wearing their uniforms outside of training.  I generally change completely before class, and after.  Even at seminars or camps, I generally would take the jacket & belt off in favor of a simple t-shirt or sweatshirt if leaving the training facility for a meal or to run an errand.  I don't even want to get into the unfortunate location of the black belt club banner on the uniform...


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## mastercole (Apr 22, 2012)

jks9199 said:


> I'm lost; what point were you trying to make here, mastercole?  Shesulsa described something she saw.  It happened to involve a taekwondo school, in her case.  I've seen similar things myself; martial arts students in full uniform, running errands or grabbing a meal.  In my experience, also, it has mostly involved taekwondo schools, often but far from exclusively, children.  I can kind of see the parents dropping the kids off, then taking them home, and the kid is in uniform.  As to the mostly taekwondo -- I think that's as much a result of the huge prevalence of commercial taekwondo in my area.
> 
> Personally -- I don't like the practice of people wearing their uniforms outside of training.  I generally change completely before class, and after.  Even at seminars or camps, I generally would take the jacket & belt off in favor of a simple t-shirt or sweatshirt if leaving the training facility for a meal or to run an errand.  I don't even want to get into the unfortunate location of the black belt club banner on the uniform...



Whatever.


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## shesulsa (Apr 22, 2012)

I confess, I've gone out in pants and tee shirt and even then usually to run the quick errand.  In fact, I *prefer* for my students to arrive in their training tee shirt (which they wear under the blouse) and dobak pants, blouse and belt in hand or in bag, ready to don them and train.  There is only a single-stall bathroom in the basement where we train and I frankly don't want any potential legal backlash from changing room issues, so I think shirt and pants are an acceptable compromise.

I have been in the situation where I *had* to run to the local market for ice or a last-minute item for a test. The store in that case was 200 feet away, so I removed my rank and stuck it inside my top and took care of the matter quickly but it was such a rare occasion.

Honestly, I'd almost like to say I've seen students from other styles do this, but ... in my area, I just haven't.  I just wondered if this standard were lax in one of the federations for Tae Kwon Do specifically.  It could just be that it's such a prolific style in the area that the chances of seeing this from a TKD student are far greater.   It was hard to miss, though, the logo and the "BLACK BELT CLUB" along with all the other patches and the Korean flag patch.  *shrug*  I dunno.


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## shesulsa (Apr 22, 2012)

So ... we have two or three MMA and BJJ clubs in the area, a Buj school within 20 miles, 1 Daito ryu, 1 Shotokan, 2 in-home kenpo schools, 4 or 5 of Kung Fu schools and about 15 TKD schools in the area.

I have seen some judo pants and tee shirts here and there, the Tai Chi guys arrive at the community center in uniform - I think this is the first class of their day and they leave the center to go right to their school, so I get that.

You know, I was taught that the protocol we follow was Korean in nature and that being a proud people it is supposedly one of the most important things taught in all Korean arts.  And I can understand the little kids missing that part of the discussion and parents just drop their kids off, mostly, so they don't know either ... but I REALLY don't get the adults - *especially Black Belt Club members.*

So ... could this be a school mishap? One of those "I don't care what I'm wearing, I want a Reuben and some cake" kind of moments?  Or is olympic TKD just kind of lax on protocol as a general rule? Please enlighten me.


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## ETinCYQX (Apr 22, 2012)

shesulsa said:


> So ... we have two or three MMA and BJJ clubs in the area, a Buj school within 20 miles, 1 Daito ryu, 1 Shotokan, 2 in-home kenpo schools, 4 or 5 of Kung Fu schools and about 15 TKD schools in the area.
> 
> I have seen some judo pants and tee shirts here and there, the Tai Chi guys arrive at the community center in uniform - I think this is the first class of their day and they leave the center to go right to their school, so I get that.
> 
> ...



That particular piece of protocol does not exist to my knowledge. There is no significance to the dobok in Taekwondo that says it cannot be worn outside the training hall much like there is no significance to the black belt that says it shouldn't touch the floor. 

I would not wear my dobok to lunch because I would be afraid to stain it and it cost me a fair amount of money. It also has some significance because I bought it for my black belt grading. I tend to run errands in at least the pants.


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## andyjeffries (Apr 22, 2012)

shesulsa said:


> I confess, I've gone out in pants and tee shirt and even then usually to run the quick errand.



Ha ha ha!  Remember this is an international forum, to read that you went out in pants in the UK means your underwear!  Personally I at least get dressed before running out on errands ;-)


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## The Last Legionary (Apr 22, 2012)

mastercole said:


> Taekwondo, really?
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, OK





mastercole said:


> Whatever.



Translation: Please spank me again, I like being in the Time-Out Corner. Seriously, why don't you contribute to the topic or shut up. 


I was out eating this one time, and in walked a group of freaky people. They were wearing weird outfits, talking in a strange language, they even smelled a bit funny. Silly little costumed stinkers they were. Reminded me of those Star Trek geeks who wear their "uniforms" when they go on "Away Missions" to Walmart. 

I go to the gym, I work out, I shower and change and go back out in normal people clothes. I don't drive home in my stinky sweats.
I go to the school and train, I change into the schools uniform there, change back into normal people clothes and go home.
I go to the Trek cons, I put on my Klingonyness there, I change back into a 'mundane' when driving home down I 75.

Some people just use it as a fashion statement. They're idiots, in my opinion.


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## Cyriacus (Apr 22, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Watching small kids with overlong belts wrapped round them half a dozen times shouting 'kihap' ( who teaches that anyway, actually saying the word?) and air punching their way around supermarkets is amusing for a few seconds, then it's very annoying!


...That actually hits a nail into My personal sense of humor. I suspect if I witnessed this, I would be crippled on the ground in laughter, and may require a mild sedative


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## mastercole (Apr 22, 2012)

The Last Legionary said:


> Translation: Please spank me again, I like being in the Time-Out Corner. Seriously, why don't you contribute to the topic or shut up.




That was my contribution, don't like it? Don't read it, or better yet, use the ignore button


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## Gorilla (Apr 22, 2012)

Don't wear dobok or gi outside of dojo or dojang.  Wear team jackets all the time.


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## granfire (Apr 22, 2012)

I would not go out and eat in one, but mostly because I am sure I'd spill something on it that leaves stains.

I have gone to the store in full uniform once....the odd stares are not something I care to repeat tho.

The mat shoes would bother me more.

had a hard time trying to explain to one person why it is rather nasty when somebody walks around barefoot all day then comes to the dojang and has those nasty feet on the mat where the rest of us has to work out. Shoes are every bit as bad...
Then again I was raised that gym shoes where for the gym only, if you wore them on the street you had to scrub the soles before entering the gym, and I do not mean on the welcome mat either!

Out kids were often seen at the stores before or after class. The school had limited changing facilities so many came already in uniform, and then of course some parents had to fit in some errands. 

But walking around with coach purses and BB club embroidered across the bum...
that reeks of showing off.


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## bugatabugata (Apr 22, 2012)

I usually wear the dobok to and from practice, because changing at the school is a hassle -- there's one small unisex bathroom, so going home to shower/change is the most convenient option. Yesterday had to pick up a couple of quick groceries on the way back and put a heavy winter jacket I had in the car over my uniform (even though it was in the mid 80s). It just feels awkward walking around in public in a dobok. I believe it's supposed to symbolize purity, so probably not the best outfit for picking up dogfood at the market/grabbing a quick burger...kwim?


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## bugatabugata (Apr 22, 2012)

granfire said:


> But walking around with coach purses and BB club embroidered across the bum...
> that reeks of showing off.



Word!


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## seasoned (Apr 22, 2012)

We go to the park and train, even had classes out in the parking lot of the dojo. Different surfaces to train on are beneficial for balance and keeping your footing while moving around. Other then that it is frowned on, and in poor taste, to wear your gi outside of the dojo, as taught to me by my sensei. 
I also don't condone it.


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## Kinghercules (Apr 22, 2012)

LOL!!
All it takes is one time for them to run into a brawler.
I bet you they wont were it no more.
%-}


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## Kinghercules (Apr 22, 2012)

shesulsa said:


> Greetings, TKDin.
> 
> I was seated at a local restaurant which is situated very near a popular (and expensive) TKD school.  We were wrapping up dessert when in walked two women (I'd say in their 40s) wearing their full dobaks and belts, carrying Coach purses and mat shoes.  Ironically, the words "Black Belt Club" was emblazoned upon the lower rear panel of their dobaks (appearing as though on their butts).
> 
> ...





But ppl on do that in a safe area or affluent neighbor hoods.


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## shesulsa (Apr 22, 2012)

Do what, exactly?

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk 2


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## Tez3 (Apr 22, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> ...That actually hits a nail into My personal sense of humor. I suspect if I witnessed this, I would be crippled on the ground in laughter, and may require a mild sedative



Much as I like small children I cannot eat a whole one, seeing a gang of arrogant little brats is annoying at any time dressed in anything even in pants ie underwear lol!


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## jks9199 (Apr 22, 2012)

For those who cite no locker room, or changing facility as an explanation for wearing their uniform while shopping or the like...

Is there some reason you can't wear a t-shirt or sweat shirt (appropriate to the weather), and then put the uniform top and belt on when you arrive?  Then take it off again when you leave?  Most women I know wear a t-shirt under the top anyway; so do many men.  But even if you're not going to wear one underneath, it's easy to take it off and put the top on I'd think.

(By the way -- my club trains in a community center, and depending on the activities may only have a single restroom facility available.  Most of us do something like I've described.)


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## Tez3 (Apr 22, 2012)

jks9199 said:


> For those who cite no locker room, or changing facility as an explanation for wearing their uniform while shopping or the like...
> 
> Is there some reason you can't wear a t-shirt or sweat shirt (appropriate to the weather), and then put the uniform top and belt on when you arrive? Then take it off again when you leave? Most women I know wear a t-shirt under the top anyway; so do many men. But even if you're not going to wear one underneath, it's easy to take it off and put the top on I'd think.
> 
> (By the way -- my club trains in a community center, and depending on the activities may only have a single restroom facility available. Most of us do something like I've described.)




That's what our guys do. Easily enough done.


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## shesulsa (Apr 22, 2012)

The Last Legionary said:


> Translation: Please spank me again, I like being in the Time-Out Corner. Seriously, why don't you contribute to the topic or shut up.


He's not happy with me because I called him out on some questions of questionable motives because I care about the well-being of the board. If you think his post breaks the rules, please RTM, Legionary. Otherwise we debase ourselves.




> I was out eating this one time, and in walked a group of freaky people. They were wearing weird outfits, talking in a strange language, they even smelled a bit funny. Silly little costumed stinkers they were. Reminded me of those Star Trek geeks who wear their "uniforms" when they go on "Away Missions" to Walmart.





> I go to the gym, I work out, I shower and change and go back out in normal people clothes. I don't drive home in my stinky sweats.
> I go to the school and train, I change into the schools uniform there, change back into normal people clothes and go home.
> I go to the Trek cons, I put on my Klingonyness there, I change back into a 'mundane' when driving home down I 75.
> 
> Some people just use it as a fashion statement. They're idiots, in my opinion.



I really want to give the benefit of the doubt here and really want to know if TKDin are exempt from this.  I wonder what high-ranking Korean masters would think or have to say.


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## shesulsa (Apr 22, 2012)

andyjeffries said:


> Ha ha ha!  Remember this is an international forum, to read that you went out in pants in the UK means your underwear!  Personally I at least get dressed before running out on errands ;-)



Ah. Well here, in the USA (and host country for the forum) we call underwear PANT_*IE*_S ... you know, as in "little pants." What do you call the bottoms then? Slacks? Bottoms? I thought you all called underwear "knickers?" *giggle*



ETinCYQX said:


> That particular piece of protocol does not exist to my knowledge. There is no significance to the dobok in Taekwondo that says it cannot be worn outside the training hall much like there is no significance to the black belt that says it shouldn't touch the floor.
> 
> I would not wear my dobok to lunch because I would be afraid to stain it and it cost me a fair amount of money. It also has some significance because I bought it for my black belt grading. I tend to run errands in at least the pants.



REALLY?  Fascinating. And you are also with the Kodokan?  My former teacher was with the Kodokan and he was responsible for teaching me much of my protocol.  For clarity, which TKD federations are under the Kukkiwon?  WTF? ITF? USTF?

Thanks.


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## ralphmcpherson (Apr 22, 2012)

shesulsa said:


> He's not happy with me because I called him out on some questions of questionable motives because I care about the well-being of the board. If you think his post breaks the rules, please RTM, Legionary. Otherwise we debase ourselves.
> 
> 
> 
> I really want to give the benefit of the doubt here and really want to know if TKDin are exempt from this.  I wonder what high-ranking Korean masters would think or have to say.


well I can assure you that our GM would be livid if he saw one of his students parading around in their uniform outside the dojang. It seems to me its the big commercial clubs where it happens. If I go shopping on a saturday morning I could bet my house I will see heaps of kiids, and some adults, parading around the shops in their uniforms (covered in signage, flags, club names etc). It does seem to be prodominantly a tkd thing as I dont see nearly as many from other arts doing it.


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## ETinCYQX (Apr 22, 2012)

shesulsa said:


> REALLY?  Fascinating. And you are also with the Kodokan?  My former teacher was with the Kodokan and he was responsible for teaching me much of my protocol.  For clarity, which TKD federations are under the Kukkiwon?  WTF? ITF? USTF?
> 
> Thanks.



The Kukkiwon is most clearly linked with WTF although the WTF is only a sport governing body and not a Taekwondo federation. ITF is, I guess, parallel to the Kukkiwon and not associated with KKW. USTF I have no idea, I live in Canada, but I believe they are an American branch of the WTF, that is to say a sport body like Taekwondo Canada. 

As far as Judo goes, the rule I was taught was not to wear the Gi anywhere but back and forth to the Dojo. As I say this I picture 7 of us in the pan of a Ford pickup in France all wearing our Gi's on the way to a tournament.  general consensus among Judo players I know seems to be that wearing the Gi back and forth is acceptable but lunch, errands etc. is not.


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## Kinghercules (Apr 22, 2012)

shesulsa said:


> Do what, exactly?
> 
> Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk 2


Walk around in full uniforms.
Just from my experience......the school I worked at was in a affluent area of MD and the instructors use to wear the uniforms all the time out in public.


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## K-man (Apr 22, 2012)

shesulsa said:


> Ah. Well here, in the USA (and host country for the forum) we call underwear PANT_*IE*_S ... you know, as in "little pants." What do you call the bottoms then? Slacks? Bottoms? I thought you all called underwear "knickers?"  *giggle*


I'm having a nightmare ... no, actually I'm awake and my imagination is in overdrive.  *Bill Mattocks*, *Seasoned*, *Elder *and a few of the others over there running about in their *panties*. The guys in Aus wear undies or jocks.

Will someone please help me off the floor? I seem to have lost my strength.      :lfao:


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## Sukerkin (Apr 22, 2012)

shesulsa said:


> Ah. Well here, in the USA (and host country for the forum) we call underwear PANT_*IE*_S ... you know, as in "little pants." What do you call the bottoms then? Slacks? Bottoms? I thought you all called underwear "knickers?" *giggle*



:grins:  I can't believe that I'm stepping in to provide international 'translation' on this one .

Over here in Blighty, "pants" are indeed undergarments and the term can be applied to both male and female items. "Knickers" is only used for female undergarments and, in proper usage, refers to the more lacy and flamboyant styles as it is a contraction of "French knickers".  An alternative term for male undergarments is "grippers" but that only applies to the tighter briefs rather than the looser jockey short type.

What American English terms "pants" are "trousers" in the true English .

As an aside, "pants" is also a colloquial term for "rubbish" or "substandard" .


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## StudentCarl (Apr 22, 2012)

I think the OP's situation is just an example of what those people thought was okay where they were...could be dangerously clueless or could be a daily occurance--we can't tell.

Wearing a martial art uniform could invite trouble in some places because to some people it would invite challenge, but where I live it's common to see people in uniforms for a variety of sports--soccer and baseball players come to mind. People in biking clothing is not uncommon, as there are road routes nearby. I do agree with the basic value that it is appropriate not to advertise that one trains in skills of violence, but I don't think that is the purpose of most Taekwondoin where I am.

Although I wear my uniform the 12 blocks from my home to the dojang when driving, and sometimes stop at the local grocery on the way home, I never wear my belt. I've seen the same at tournaments; people ducking out to lunch in their doboks, usually without belts on. If I walk or ride my bike, I carry my uniform and belt in a pack.

If I was in any place other than home/local dojang or the immediate vicinity of a tournament, I would change on site. I prefer not to share my business with strangers.


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## Sukerkin (Apr 22, 2012)

I do think that it is important not to get too 'precious' about the wearing of uniforms out in public.  There are practical and social factors that come into play, most certainly, the most obvious, as has been mentioned by some earlier, being that to wear your kit out in a public place can invite unwanted attention.

At the end of the day, the garb we wear to practise our arts is simply the ordinary clothes of the culture and the period from which the art came.  There is nothing mystical or ethical about wearing them.


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## chrispillertkd (Apr 22, 2012)

shesulsa said:


> I really want to give the benefit of the doubt here and really want to know if TKDin are exempt from this. I wonder what high-ranking Korean masters would think or have to say.



I think it would depend, really. In South Korea, Kuk Ki Won Taekwondo is largely viewed as a children's activity. Many young children get the kiddie equivalent of a black belt after one year of training. You can see them walking around in doboks going to and from classes. I imagine it's a lot like seeing kids in the States walk around in their little league uniforms. 

In America, I know few if any instructors who wouldn't at least say to take off your belt and jacket and put on a different top if you have to go out after class before going home. Generally after a test, seminar, or class if we go out we go home, shower, and change first. If it's a quick lunch break and then back for training during an all day event people still change our tops at least (personally, I just change into street clothes). 

Pax,

Chris


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## IcemanSK (Apr 22, 2012)

To the OP, I tell my students they can only their dobok pants outside of class. Their tops & belts must not be worn outside class. Some come in street clothes & some wear their dobok pants to class. It's an issue of regard for the uniform, mitigates unwanted comments outside of class, & as a reminder that the purpose of the dobok is for training.


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## mastercole (Apr 22, 2012)

shesulsa said:


> He's not happy with me because I called him out on some questions of questionable motives because I care about the well-being of the board. If you think his post breaks the rules, please RTM, Legionary. Otherwise we debase ourselves.



First, you give your self to much credit, you never called me out on anything.  Second, I have no idea what you are talking about.





shesulsa said:


> I really want to give the benefit of the doubt here and really want to know if TKDin are exempt from this.  I wonder what high-ranking Korean masters would think or have to say.



Obviously in the case (or many many cases  you personally witnessed their instructor did not care, why should you?


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## mastercole (Apr 22, 2012)

Sukerkin said:


> I do think that it is important not to get too 'precious' about the wearing of uniforms out in public.  There are practical and social factors that come into play, most certainly, the most obvious, as has been mentioned by some earlier, being that to wear your kit out in a public place can invite unwanted attention.
> 
> At the end of the day, the garb we wear to practise our arts is simply the ordinary clothes of the culture and the period from which the art came.  There is nothing mystical or ethical about wearing them.



All good points. The problem is that some people, not all, get an idea the uniform and belt is some kind of holy object. Of course the uniform should be treated well as you treat other clothes, keep it nice and clean, pressed and looking your best. But who cares if someone ends up out to lunch in a uniform, I certainly don't care.   My myself, I always have a change of clothes, when I am done with the uniform, I change, I don't go out in it. But if I had to, no sweat, I'll just bring some business cards in case someone ask.


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## Archtkd (Apr 22, 2012)

Folks, think. If doboks and belts where such a big deal in taekwondo nobody would compete in them.


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## IcemanSK (Apr 22, 2012)

Another reason I don't think it's appropriate to wear a dobok outside the dojang is it just plain looks dorky & out of place. As do baseball players, wrestlers, equestrian riders, swimmers, or dancers just look out of place wearing their uniform outside the space where they participate in their activity. 

Archtkd, your point is well taken by me.


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## Cyriacus (Apr 22, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Much as I like small children *I cannot eat a whole one*, seeing a gang of arrogant little brats is annoying at any time dressed in anything even in pants ie underwear lol!



I assure You, Theyre delicious.


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## granfire (Apr 23, 2012)

IcemanSK said:


> Another reason I don't think it's appropriate to wear a dobok outside the dojang is it just plain looks dorky & out of place. As do baseball players, wrestlers, equestrian riders, swimmers, or dancers just look out of place wearing their uniform outside the space where they participate in their activity.
> 
> Archtkd, your point is well taken by me.



yes, equestrians do get those looks all the time when appearing in public with the clothes of their trade.  (especially the ladies...)


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## shesulsa (Apr 23, 2012)

mastercole said:


> First, you give your self to much credit, you never called me out on anything.  Second, I have no idea what you are talking about.




Of course you do.
I'm pretty sure you dinged me for it.




> Obviously in the case (or many many cases  you personally witnessed their instructor did not care, why should you?



I was taught to care about protocol for all the benefits it can offer in traditional training settings. I also care about my education - clearly you can understand that. In your words to me, do you have something productive to contribute here or are you just interested in being argumentative?

I have only sought to understand TKD more, to understand you more, your motives for posting some of the questions you have and the actual questions themselves ... but unfortunately, it is your attitude that you find reflected back here as demonstrated by your posts in this thread.

Please either answer the question or move on.


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## mastercole (Apr 23, 2012)

shesulsa said:


> Of course you do.



You just thought you were calling me out    But in this thread, like your other, I can see you are certainly into what you think is "calling people out".



shesulsa said:


> I was taught to care about protocol for all the benefits it can offer in traditional training settings. I also care about my education - clearly you can understand that. In your words to me, do you have something productive to contribute here or are you just interested in being argumentative?
> 
> I have only sought to understand TKD more, to understand you more, your motives for posting some of the questions you have and the actual questions themselves ... but unfortunately, it is your attitude that you find reflected back here as demonstrated by your posts in this thread.
> 
> Please either answer the question or move on.



The only protocol I see here is your own agenda.  Here you love to argue, then at the same time state "answer the question or move on."  So it is only you that can insult, call people out ect. but when you are called on it, suddenly that person is disruptive.  Sorry, I don't buy it, and others with any intelligence won't buy it either, but keep going in the direction you are going. I don't see it as you seeking to understand Taekwondo, or you would be asking a lot of questions about other things, not insulting Taekwondo and getting argument is what this thread was really about anyway.  It's called seeking Drama.


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## Cyriacus (Apr 23, 2012)

Yay, these debates that never and in anyone thinking any differently are happening again.


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## chrispillertkd (Apr 23, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> Yay, these debates that never and in anyone thinking any differently are happening again.



Hey, that's the nature of internet bulletin boards. People debate, topics are dropped, more people join, they bring up old topics they weren't around for, they are debted again. No big deal. Problems only arise when people post in a belittling, insulting manner and then act surprised or like they're a martyr when other posters don't treat them like primadonnas.

Pax,

Chris


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## andyjeffries (Apr 23, 2012)

jks9199 said:


> For those who cite no locker room, or changing facility as an explanation for wearing their uniform while shopping or the like...
> 
> Is there some reason you can't wear a t-shirt or sweat shirt (appropriate to the weather), and then put the uniform top and belt on when you arrive?  Then take it off again when you leave?  Most women I know wear a t-shirt under the top anyway; so do many men.  But even if you're not going to wear one underneath, it's easy to take it off and put the top on I'd think.
> 
> (By the way -- my club trains in a community center, and depending on the activities may only have a single restroom facility available.  Most of us do something like I've described.)



Just to be clear a lot of my students (I only teach children) do bring a hoodie or something similar to put on over the top, however this is likely more due to the fact that it's still "fresh" outside (8-10°C).

In the UK, it's much less common for children to wear T-shirts underneath their training tops and you have to be very careful about what you say regarding children getting changed in a "public" area.

I had thought about getting some club T-Shirts made, but the area I teach is not affluent so I don't want to add expense to parents at the moment, when I'm trying to focus on getting most of the children to wear hogu/head guards for sparring work.

I just personally feel this is a personal/parental thing - if people want to wear their dobok to/from training that's their call.  If parents want to make children get changed (either to avoid the risk of dirt or so it's not seen), that's their call.

I'm with Mastercole, treat it with respect as you would any other clothes, but aside from that it holds no special or mystical properties for me.  I'm proud of the time I spend doing and teaching Taekwondo, and I'm proud of the rank I was given by my grandmaster, but the clothes are just clothes - I would be no different a Taekwondoin in a tracksuit than I am in a dobok.


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## andyjeffries (Apr 23, 2012)

IcemanSK said:


> Another reason I don't think it's appropriate to wear a dobok outside the dojang is it just plain looks dorky & out of place. As do baseball players, wrestlers, equestrian riders, swimmers, or dancers just look out of place wearing their uniform outside the space where they participate in their activity.



I routinely see people in the UK in supermarkets wearing football kits (soccer for you USers) or rugby kits without a second thought (this is a frequent occurance on Saturday mornings while they're on their way to their matches).  I see girls going to dancing lessons wearing their dance outfits.  In the summer when it's warm enough I see guys walking around wearing swimming shorts on their way to a pool.

I don't spare a second thought about any of them for wearing their activity's clothes outside the activity.  Good on them for doing an activity rather than sitting on the couch watching one.


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## Gnarlie (Apr 23, 2012)

andyjeffries said:


> Just to be clear a lot of my students (I only teach children) do bring a hoodie or something similar to put on over the top, however this is likely more due to the fact that it's still "fresh" outside (8-10°C).
> 
> In the UK, it's much less common for children to wear T-shirts underneath their training tops and you have to be very careful about what you say regarding children getting changed in a "public" area.
> 
> ...



With you on all points.  The UK is a bit of a nightmare regarding application of a Child Protection Policy as it would apply to kids getting changed, even in a dedicated changing room or a toilet area.  It's far more relaxed here in Germany, which to me is sensible and practical so long as measures are in place to ensure that children are not left alone with an adult and vice versa.

For that reason, kids always left our UK club in dobok, but were encouraged to put something over the top, like tracksuit bottoms and a jacket, so the dobok wouldn't be on display and they wouldn't be cold.  It also allows the parents to nip to Asda on the way home without people casting aspersions about them, their kids, or the club they are from.

It's common sense really - it's not that bad to be in the supermarket in a dobok, but we had instances in summer where a child had been encouraged by the parents to walk home alone, without a change of clothing - to me that's asking for trouble.  If the worst thing that kid catches is a chill, then they are lucky.  This obviously led to a few 'stranger danger' sessions, and the introduction of the 'don't leave the Dojang until your grown-up is here' rule.


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 23, 2012)

There are a few of our kids who wear their dobaks to and from the dojang. Nobody seems to get uptight about it. When I'm pressed for time, I will sometimes wear my black dobak pants with a t-shirt. I don't really think anybody would notice that they're not just black jeans under ordinary circumstances.


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## Cyriacus (Apr 23, 2012)

chrispillertkd said:


> Hey, that's the nature of internet bulletin boards. People debate, topics are dropped, more people join, they bring up old topics they weren't around for, they are debted again. No big deal. Problems only arise when people post in a belittling, insulting manner and then act surprised or like they're a martyr when other posters don't treat them like primadonnas.
> 
> Pax,
> 
> Chris


Its more that its the same thing, every single time.
I dont mind a healthy debate


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## Kong Soo Do (Apr 23, 2012)

chrispillertkd said:


> Hey, that's the nature of internet bulletin boards. People debate, topics are dropped, more people join, they bring up old topics they weren't around for, they are debted again. No big deal. Problems only arise when people post in a belittling, insulting manner and then act surprised or like they're a martyr when other posters don't treat them like primadonnas.
> 
> Pax,
> 
> Chris



I think we need to consider the 'why'.  In some cases, an instructor works predominately with children.  Children look up to authority figures, which is proper respect.  Even with adults, an instructor is looked upon with respect, again this is proper.  In the school environment, their 'word' is truth and/or law.  But care needs to be taken that it doesn't go to the head (not said about anyone in particular, a general statement).  Many personalities exist in the world, boards are no different.  Sometimes an instructor comes in here, expecting that their 'word is truth/law' and then they find out others have a different view or more experience than they do in some areas.  A choice then needs to be made, learn from others, accepting that there are different view points and opinions or get offended and post in a rude manner.  I'm sure we can all agree on which is the more mature route, as well as the wiser path to take.  

If quite a few people are complaining about certain members in particular, then maybe there is some substance to the complaint(s).  If those that are the root of the complaint(s) would reverse course and share what they have to offer, while respecting that others may differ and perhaps realize that they in turn can learn themselves then everything would be groovy.  It is when some think they are beyond learning from others that problems will occur.  A 50th Dan can learn from a white belt (or no belt).  It is humility to accept that and arrogance to ignore it.

Peace.


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## shesulsa (Apr 23, 2012)

I just want to reiterate I encourage all my students to arrive in their dobak trousers and a training tee shirt (I went to the craft store and bought a bunch and threw my logo onto them - about $4 out of my pocket each) and just gave them away to the students, but I have a small group.  

It kind of irks me when folks jump to the "my belt/uniform has no special/magical properties" line, it's rather ridiculous and, I guess, answers my question as to what is generally considered proper in training today.

I don't think my belt nor my uniform nor my wedding ring have special properties or magical powers.  Sharpening one's behaviors in all things related to training, training clothing and inventory, etcetera, has long been part and parcel of training the mind, training the heart, training the character.  I suppose this escapes most people's notice.  That's not to say that practiced habit is the only way to get there, it is a demonstrated habit that is easy for others to see, particularly the instructor.

I really also don't like to see football players eating in a restaurant after a game - there are ALL kinds of nastiness in the surface on which they play and they bring that into a food service place. Same for baseball players.  I don't like seeing women in bikini tops nor children in bathing suits with nothing over them in said places either. That's what cover-ups are for.

I'm no prude, but I think in a world where we complain about inappropriate behavior being rampant, we need to think about how we encourage that through habit in the home, in the workplace, on the field and in the dojang.

Thanks to you folks who took the time to respond to my posts about the protocol!


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## shesulsa (Apr 23, 2012)

mastercole said:


> The only protocol I see here is your own agenda.  Here you love to argue, then at the same time state "answer the question or move on."  So it is only you that can insult, call people out ect. but when you are called on it, suddenly that person is disruptive.  Sorry, I don't buy it, and others with any intelligence won't buy it either, but keep going in the direction you are going. I don't see it as you seeking to understand Taekwondo, or you would be asking a lot of questions about other things, not insulting Taekwondo and getting argument is what this thread was really about anyway.  It's called seeking Drama.



Mastercole, the thread where you felt I was being argumentative, I simply asked you questions for clarity which you repeatedly refused to answer other than to try to brush me aside and accuse me of arguing.  I have never attacked Taekwondo and I certainly do not seek drama.  I have been here far longer than you, sir, and have seen people like you come and go.  Perhaps you expected me to bow down to you and glorify every question you posed and never ask for clarification; maybe that's how you're used to being treated and expect that to happen here. Perhaps you're just the kind of person who will only accept the answers you want to hear. I don't know.

I encourage you as another human being on this planet to view all questions as carrying the potential for shared understanding (I'm certain I have asserted this more than once) regardless of your perception. You can only hope to forward your art by doing so. If that makes you feel uncomfortable ... perhaps you should take that into consideration when posting here.

Peace.


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## Cyriacus (Apr 23, 2012)

shesulsa said:


> Mastercole, the thread where you felt I was being argumentative, I simply asked you questions for clarity which you repeatedly refused to answer other than to try to brush me aside and accuse me of arguing.  I have never attacked Taekwondo and I certainly do not seek drama.  I have been here far longer than you, sir, and have seen people like you come and go.  Perhaps you expected me to bow down to you and glorify every question you posed and never ask for clarification; maybe that's how you're used to being treated and expect that to happen here. Perhaps you're just the kind of person who will only accept the answers you want to hear. I don't know.
> 
> *I encourage you as another human being on this planet to view all questions as carrying the potential for shared understanding (I'm certain I have asserted this more than once) regardless of your perception. You can only hope to forward your art by doing so. If that makes you feel uncomfortable ... perhaps you should take that into consideration when posting here.
> *
> Peace.



From what Ive seen of MasterCole, He can be very varied. Sometimes Hes just interrogating a subject to get to its core, other times He seems to be equally vigorously defending opinions, sometimes for reasons beyond Me. Its mostly the first one, and I dont mind that. Then I see the second side, and wonder exactly how the two extremes are possible in one person.

For example, to the Bold;
An example of the second one, is that thats what He is doing most of the time. With Him being the one asking the Questions.

Which is why these dramatic debates, which are often the same debate with a few words substituted, and of varied length, is a bit confusing on My end. Mostly as to why Theyre happening.


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## shesulsa (Apr 23, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> From what Ive seen of MasterCole, He can be very varied. Sometimes Hes just interrogating a subject to get to its core, other times He seems to be equally vigorously defending opinions, sometimes for reasons beyond Me. Its mostly the first one, and I dont mind that. Then I see the second side, and wonder exactly how the two extremes are possible in one person.
> 
> For example, to the Bold;
> An example of the second one, is that thats what He is doing most of the time. With Him being the one asking the Questions.
> ...



Well-stated, well-taken and easily remedied. :asian:


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## miguksaram (Apr 23, 2012)

It is rare that I will go out with my uniform still on, but when it does happen I do take off my belt and leave it in the car.  I have learned to try and keep a spare shirt in my car to wear on the occasion that someone wants to go out for food or drinks directly after class.  

For kids to go out wearing their uniform and belts, I see no big deal to it.  They're kids.  I rarely see adults do it, but if they were to wear the uniforms outside of the school, again no big deal, but I do find it tacky if they keep their belts on.  That is just my own opinion.


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## miguksaram (Apr 23, 2012)

andyjeffries said:


> Ha ha ha!  Remember this is an international forum, to read that you went out in pants in the UK means your underwear!  Personally I at least get dressed before running out on errands ;-)


Well yeah...but I'm sure more people would much rather see Shesulsa running in pants (using the UK meaning) than you.


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## Steve (Apr 23, 2012)

Just my two cents, I would never, ever go anywhere in a gi.  I'll wear a jits t-shirt, but I typically wear shirts that are understated, and for the most part, if you don't train in BJJ, you might not even know it's related.  Prana BJJ, RAW and Original Grappler are my favorites.  

Now, I will say that in my experience, people who train in BJJ aren't modest, and I personally would have no problem changing in the lobby.  And if it was a choice between changing in the lobby or going to the grocery store in my gi, I'd drop trow without a second thought. There's nothing I wear under my pants (trousers) that's worse than a typical swim suit, really.  And the same is true for most women... although there was this one lady who wore a thong under her gi.  That was awkward all the way around and she didn't last long.    

I have zero issue with kids wearing doboks or whatever.  They're kids, and it's not a big deal to me.


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## Tez3 (Apr 23, 2012)

It may be nothing that children run around in their uniforms or any sports kit but surely it's good for them to learn to look after their kit and not use it as they would what we called 'playing out clothes' when I was a child. When I was at school we had to come home and change out of our uniforms, not out of respect for the school but because the uniforms cost money and had to be looked after. In martial arts children should be encouraged to do exactly the same, Gis, Doboks, whatever cost money, hard earned by parents in many cases. Take them off after class or cover them up, fold them up properly and put them away. It's being discplined something martial arts schools claim to teach. It has the added bonus of showing a modicum of respect for what we do, we bow going in and out of class as a token of respect so why not encourage students to treat their uniforms with respect. It helps get the mindset right for training. I have know people who train, get sweaty then take their gi off and throw it in their sports bags not to be taken out until the next session, dear me, not something you want to be partnered  with or even be near!


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## Steve (Apr 23, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> It may be nothing that children run around in their uniforms or any sports kit but surely it's good for them to learn to look after their kit and not use it as they would what we called 'playing out clothes' when I was a child. When I was at school we had to come home and change out of our uniforms, not out of respect for the school but because the uniforms cost money and had to be looked after. In martial arts children should be encouraged to do exactly the same, Gis, Doboks, whatever cost money, hard earned by parents in many cases. Take them off after class or cover them up, fold them up properly and put them away. It's being discplined something martial arts schools claim to teach. It has the added bonus of showing a modicum of respect for what we do, we bow going in and out of class as a token of respect so why not encourage students to treat their uniforms with respect. It helps get the mindset right for training. I have know people who train, get sweaty then take their gi off and throw it in their sports bags not to be taken out until the next session, dear me, not something you want to be partnered  with or even be near!


I think there's a big difference between playing all day in your dobok or soccer uniform, and wearing it to the grocery store or to Dairy Queen with mom after a game or TKD class.  I agree that it's good to learn to take care of one's things, but I see kids in uniforms all weekend long and it's just no big deal for me.


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## leadleg (Apr 23, 2012)

I always wear light weight warm ups that I can pull over my whites, keeps them clean and unnoticed. What my students wear out of the dojang does not matter as long as they do not wear their belt. I do teach them the proper way to fold their dobuks, and will not tolerate stained or dirty uniforms. I will happily sell them a new one though.


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## Tez3 (Apr 23, 2012)

Steve said:


> I think there's a big difference between playing all day in your dobok or soccer uniform, and wearing it to the grocery store or to Dairy Queen with mom after a game or TKD class. I agree that it's good to learn to take care of one's things, but I see kids in uniforms all weekend long and it's just no big deal for me.




In our area there's a TKD class and us, the TKD kids are out playing in the street with uniforms on as well as going shopping etc. I think it's fairly unusual to see martial arts uniforms out on the street in the UK, unusual enough at least I think that it does cause people to take a second look, now whether that's good or bad I don't know!


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## andyjeffries (Apr 23, 2012)

miguksaram said:


> Well yeah...but I'm sure more people would much rather see Shesulsa running in pants (using the UK meaning) than you.



Oy!


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## GlassJaw (Apr 23, 2012)

shesulsa said:


> I don't think my belt nor my uniform nor my wedding ring have special properties or magical powers.



Neither does one's national flag.  Saluting the flag or removing one's dee before exiting the dojang are just rituals we choose to follow to demonstrate our respect.  

You have given several reasons why it would be less practical for your school to have rules similar to what others have described regarding where, when, and how uniforms may be worn.   And, as has been made very apparent in this thread, such rules are far from universal.  Different schools choose to express respect for their art in different ways.


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## GlassJaw (Apr 23, 2012)

In our school, we only wear the belts in the dojang (unless, of course, we're doing a demo or somesuch).  That means we also remove them when going out into the corridor during practice or at a tournament.  

We don't wear the dobak outside of the building (well, leaving it on while running out to the parking lot to grab something from one's car is probably acceptable--at least, I've never had to do pushups for it; I'm sure I would have gotten slammed if I left the belt on, though).  No wearing it as pajamas or as a Halloween costume, or in any other way without our master's approval.  (Indeed, it's also considered proper to seek permission before entering a tournament, as the uniform displays our school's patches.)

Despite the rule against it, wearing the uniform trousers outside of class seems to be tolerated some (students often prefer them to sweats or shorts when training at home).  However, the trousers still have to be clean and whole when they wear them in class.


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## Daniel Sullivan (May 14, 2012)

shesulsa said:


> Greetings, TKDin.
> 
> I was seated at a local restaurant which is situated very near a popular (and expensive) TKD school.  We were wrapping up dessert when in walked two women (I'd say in their 40s) wearing their full dobaks and belts, carrying Coach purses and mat shoes.  Ironically, the words "Black Belt Club" was emblazoned upon the lower rear panel of their dobaks (appearing as though on their butts).
> 
> ...


I don't know of any special protocol regarding the dobok outside of whatever is set by individual school owners.  I have, on occasion, gone into to a retail establishment in my dobok, but I generally try not to; it has no pockets and is really not well suited to activities outside of the one for which it was designed.  

As for why it seems to be taekwondo schools, I suspect that it has to do more with law of averages than anything else; there are easily five taekwondo schools for every single school teaching any other art in the DC metropolitan area.  I suspect that suburbia in other parts of the country are similar.  

Interestingly, the two schools who's students I see in doboks and gis outside of class are Kicks Karate and Teague's Academy.  Both say 'karate' on their signs.  The first is Tangsudo and the the second is a Jinenkan school with an Ishin Ryu karate based kids program.  The reason is that they are located in strip malls and both have large numbers of children and teens taking class.  Cannot speak for Kicks, but I have trained at Teague's and I have only good things to say about the experience.

I don't have an opinion about it one way or the other, though I do encourage my own students not to wear their uniforms outside of class, primarily for the purpose of keeping it in good condition.


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