# have anyone used Kenpo for real



## cfr (Jul 15, 2002)

Here is my meager martial arts experiece:

6 months in a guys garage. All one on one lessons. Involved kickboxing, brazillian jui jutsu, jap jui jutsu, and judo. Very intense. Very untraditional. He moved away or I would still be there.

5 months of Hapkido. I liked the style itself. But it is a very plush, catering to preppies, not very intense school. (no, not even to the upper belts) I left due to its babying of students. 

3 months Kenpo. At my particular Kenpo school, what originally attracted me was the intensity. The owner got her black belt under John Conway Sr. from Panorama City, Ca. a long time ago. She has trined with Ed Parker as well. She currently trains under Dan Inosanto in JKD. (I think thats it) The other head instructor used to do real fighting back before there were no rules. (eye gouging, etc.) They also incorporate boxing and Wing Chun into the mix. I left due to a foot injury that Im still recovering from. 


So my latest question is thisplease keep in mind I am not trying to disrespect anyone here)

Has anyone used any Kenpo when it really counted? In a real streetfight. If so, was it 
actually Kenpo or was it one or two smacks to the head that you could have learned from 
any MA school? I ask only because Im trying to decide between styles and there are some
definate hangups about Kenpo. (forms,some of the predetermined self defense techniques,
cat stances, etc) Like Im mentioned earlier, Im not trying to offend anyone, just get some
opinions.


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## GouRonin (Jul 15, 2002)

:boxing:


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## Ronin (Jul 15, 2002)

As a cop i've used it many times. Keep in mind a punch is a punch and a kick is a kick  just because you done attack like you see in films doesnt mean  you havent used it.


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## AvPKenpo (Jul 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by cfr _
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I guess my first question is what are you trying to accomplish with your MA.  Are you wanting to become a bodyguard, cop, or do you like barfights?  
And my question is what is your hangups with forms, self defense techniques and cat stances?
Maybe we can help you with your hangups.
And yes I have been confronted more than once  by idiots, I even had a man pull a knife on me.   But Kenpo is more than a physical art, it is mental.  And I used Kenpo without having a pysical confrontation.

Michael


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## cdhall (Jul 15, 2002)

Cross of Destruction is for a rear two-hand choke.

I was at work and some annoying guy who I didn't like anyway, came up to me and starting grabbing my hair and rubbing my head.

Really.  It was in a restaurant, the chairs have wheels on them.  I was a table eating with some of the staff.  I think I heard this guy coming but I don't know if I looked at him or not.  I think he might even have been trying to make a pass at me after I thought about it.

Anyway, I IMMEDIATELY reached up and grabbed his hands, slid the chair out from behind me as I stood up via a rear crossover into the first stance.

I stepped into him and let go of his arms so I didn't do the arm break because I was coming to "my senses" and I also pulled the kick in time to only tap him near the groin.  But he fell over anyway. 

Lunch was now over.  I told him not to sneak up on me and touch me again, but that I knew he was alright.

I left.  One of the girls gave me a hassle for it later.

I tell this story not because I used it because my life was in danger but because this technique worked for real, while Seated!

Amazing.  I did it from a chair and it worked like a charm.  So I really did the technique, I modified it of course, but this was essentially straight out off our charts.  

I know one or two other stories where people started a real technique but could not finish it and this is not a knock against Kenpo (EPAK) because you are supposed to be taught more moves and develop reflexes that will not leave you in a situation where you have to stop and think about what to do.  So I study Kenpo as developed by Ed Parker and I hope this helped.  Feel free to email me as well if you like.
:asian:


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## cfr (Jul 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ronin _
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> *just because you done attack like you see in films doesnt mean  you havent used it. *



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What?


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## cfr (Jul 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by AvPKenpo _
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Self defense is my only goal. I never get into fights so barfighting is out.
Forms: I posted a question here last week regarding them. Im slightly more open minded to them now. But Ive got to admit Im still very leary to putting lots of training time into them. I guess I really doubt their usefullness. 
Cat stances: I dont think I will ever see the point. I guess I am of the belief that if I wouldnt do it in a real fight, why bother. Lots of people say you fight how you train so its not just me. I guess I just dont see myself going into a cat stance during a fight. 
Self defence techniques: I have no idea why I wrote that.


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## brianhunter (Jul 15, 2002)

Kenpo is more then performing a technique on someone....we have all used Kenpo knowing it or not......Gauging your distance in a potent situation and checking your environment and angles of movement before anything even physically happened is what Kenpo is all about...clock principles, natural weapons etc.."Distance is your best friend" verbally calming down a situation "whatever the attitude so is the response". 
Thinking about blading your body to someone who is aggressive is Kenpo! Environmental considerations are just the tip of the ice berg man...its a science I love it......so do quite a few others on here.This stuff works just stick it out...it will get under your skin and youll love it!
If your goal is honestly self defence youve come to the right art.....stick around it will take a year or two to get some things engrained but it is worth it...you definately got to stick it out for more then 6 months to get to some of the "meat" of the system. Youll get there


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## jfarnsworth (Jul 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by cfr _
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CFR,
Hmmmm, well, In the forms have you ever seen short 3 and above? All of those forms are a particular set of self-defense techniques put into a specific sequence. There is just absolutely tons of knowledge to go with each individual form! When looking at short 1 - long 2 you are given examples of foot manuevers, covers, advancing, retreating, breathing, timing, coordination, power, power principles, rotation, opposites, reverses, opposing forces, balance, etc. , etc. and etc. Now if you look at the sets blocking 1 - stance 1, they are there to give you examples on each category your working on. Then go into the second set's which gives you an even more indepth look at each category.

The cat stance, can you do a front snap kick without slightly pulling the foot back from it's position? I'm talking about closest weapon to the nearest target. This would be the front leg kick. What about a roundhouse. If you pull it back then it's a cat stance. Practice a right back kick toward an attacker in a right neutral bow. You must pull it back into a reverse cat to perform the kick corrrectly. I'm just trying to help out.
Jason Farnsworth


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## Nightingale (Jul 15, 2002)

I've used kenpo. it worked. well.

I've told the story here before, so if you want to hear it again, email me at nightingale8472@hotmail.com and I'd be happy to share.


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## eternalwhitebelt (Jul 15, 2002)

Used it twice.  Was scared shitless both times.  Both physical confrontations I was the one who left on my own accord.


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## AvPKenpo (Jul 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by cfr _
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jfarnsworth covered almost everything I was going to about forms.  :shrug:  The one thing that I would add is that it has also helped to develop my speed and power.  Also instead of doing just a technique in the air, I am doing several at the same time to many directions defending myself from multiple attackers.  Its all about the mindset.  Are you going through the motions or are you defending yourself?  I have practiced my forms so much that on occasion when doing a technique in the air I go into what ever form they are found in.

Cat stances believe it or not I feel are extremely effective.  Have you ever heard of a principle called Double Ghost Imaging?  I or someone else can go into more depth if you haven't.

Self-Defense techniques-   LOL, thats ok sometimes we all do that especially late at night.

Michael


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## JD_Nelson (Jul 17, 2002)

I have seen my instructor and a guest instructor perform some of the upper level forms.  

I am still learning form one........ so I hope the seniors here will forgive my lack of knowledge of the forms.....


The forms are impressive.  I see some of the techniques I have done and some of the the techs i have read about in the forms.  In my opinion the forms help with total body coordination, balance, and endurance.  

Practice the forms outside on the grass, uneven surface, or something less than ideal.  The footwork during the transitions on these surfaces may help you see how to flow from one position to another.   Try doing the forms when you are tired in these conditions.  For me it causes me to have to concentrate and work through the fatigue.  

I personally like to train in as tough as conditions as possible.  I believe it gives you an extra edge.  

Salute :asian: 

Jeremy


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## Sigung86 (Jul 17, 2002)

Question of clarification needed here ...

If you pull back to the "traditional" cat stance, and keeping the weight ratios the same, the balance the same, but do not pull up on the toes of the lead foot, is it still a cat stance?   In other words, all is the same, except you, essentially, leave your lead foot flat for that split second, prior to whatever execution you are leading to next?

I ask simply because there are other systems that pull the same stance, but either leave the foot flat, or come back on the heel, and in practice, the other two options seem to leave me better balanced and just as agile.  

Thanks everyone.

Dan


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## cdhall (Jul 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _
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> *Question of clarification needed here ...
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I misread your question intially.  If the only difference is that your front foot is not "perched" on ball, but is flat or on the heel then I don't think the difference changes the stance enough to rename it.
:asian:


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## Michael Billings (Jul 17, 2002)

... and it works well.  Have trained with some boxers, JKD, and Muay Thai, not to mention the ever present TAEKWONDOists.  Principles, Concepts, and Theories apply there and help you solve the equation of their fighting also.

No such thing as learning too much, is there?

-Michael
UKS-Texas


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## Goldendragon7 (Jul 17, 2002)

It has served me well...... many lessons learned !  Reality on the street is definitely different than in the text book.

:asian:


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## Nightingale (Jul 17, 2002)

to that.


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## kenpo_cory (Jul 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by AvPKenpo _
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> Have you ever heard of a principle called Double Ghost Imaging?  I or someone else can go into more depth if you haven't.*



I'm not sure if I'm familiar with this one. Does it have anything to do with a form of contouring? Can someone elaborate? Thanks in advance guys.


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## Kirk (Jul 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by KENPO_CORY _
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> I'm not sure if I'm familiar with this one. Does it have anything to do with a form of contouring? Can someone elaborate? Thanks in advance guys. *



It's used in checking the storm.  You're supposed to wait until
as late as possible before stepping to 3 o'clock.  That way the
last usable image of you to the attacker is where you were, not
where you are.


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## Scott Bonner (Jul 18, 2002)

Re: double ghost imaging.  Good luck with that.  To move as late as possible so that the opponent has committed physically to wasted action makes sense.  To move as late as possible in hopes of psyching them into thinking you are still standing still is silly.  There is no way any mere human can move so fast that the opponent won't see and cognitively process that motion.  The mind is many times quicker than any physical motion.  This isn't DragonballZ.

Peace,
Scott

P.S.  Go, Vegeta!


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## AvPKenpo (Jul 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by KENPO_CORY _
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> I'm not sure if I'm familiar with this one. Does it have anything to do with a form of contouring? Can someone elaborate? Thanks in advance guys. *




No, not contouring.  You are in a natural stance, you drop back to a right nuetral bow, then draw into a cat stance to gain a few more inches in your distance to your oppenent.
In a sense becuase you have dropped back to a right nuetral bow your oppenent can judge the depth of how far you have moved, but when you draw back into your cat stance there should be no head bobble.  It should stay on the same plane, not moving up or down.  Thus gaining you anywhere from 4-6 inches (maybe more) without your oppenent noticing.  Your oppenent is not able to judge the distance in which you haved moved.  That is what we call double ghost imaging, becuase the oppenent cannot see how far you have moved from your second position(nuetral bow) to your third position (cat stance).

That's about as simplistic as I can explain it.  And no it is not a DragonBalls Z thing either.

Michael


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## kenpo3631 (Jul 18, 2002)

> If you pull back to the "traditional" cat stance, and keeping the weight ratios the same, the balance the same, but do not pull up on the toes of the lead foot, is it still a cat stance? In other words, all is the same, except you, essentially, leave your lead foot flat for that split second, prior to whatever execution you are leading to next?



_Ed Parker's _ Secrets of Chinese Karate    (S.O.C.K.) book goes through the different positions of the lead foot in regard to the cat stance. So I don't think the lead foot position would make a difference only to preference of that particular practitioner.:asian:


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## Scott Bonner (Jul 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by AvPKenpo _
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That makes more sense.  Definitely not a DBZ thing -- nothing subtle in DBZ.  LOL.  Too bad "double ghost imaging" has such a floofy, goofy name, though.  Then again, lots of things in Kenpo get floofy, goofy names, don't they?


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## AvPKenpo (Jul 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Scott Bonner _
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Yeah I agree but at least it isn't in a forein language.  hehehe  Then we really would have a hard time, at least I would.  The only language classes I took in H.S. were french and redneck.  

Michael


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## GouRonin (Jul 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Scott Bonner _
> *Re: double ghost imaging.  Good luck with that.  To move as late as possible so that the opponent has committed physically to wasted action makes sense.  To move as late as possible in hopes of psyching them into thinking you are still standing still is silly.  There is no way any mere human can move so fast that the opponent won't see and cognitively process that motion.  The mind is many times quicker than any physical motion.  This isn't DragonballZ.*



Just a note. There are arts that use psychological aspects to make your opponent do what you want. The last class I attended in Systema Vlad was having us work with using body language to psychologically stop your opponent from throwing his intended strike. Not sure if this could apply to what you are talking about but it's worth mentioning.


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## sparky (Jul 18, 2002)

Practice the forms outside on the grass, uneven surface, or something less than ideal.  The footwork during the transitions on these surfaces may help you see how to flow from one position to another.   Try doing the forms when you are tired in these conditions.  For me it causes me to have to concentrate and work through the fatigue.  

I personally like to train in as tough as conditions as possible.  I believe it gives you an extra edge.


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## sparky (Jul 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by JD_Nelson _
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Try long 4 on the beach - drunk


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## kenpo_cory (Jul 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by AvPKenpo _
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Cool, thanks man. I like it, I like it a lot.


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## GouRonin (Jul 22, 2002)

I want to amend my answer. I have never used any Kenpo techniques to save my @ss. All I have been able to use are Kenpo basics.

Strange. People always ask if anyone has ever used their techniques in a real confrontation. No one ever asks if anyone has used their Kenpo forms in a real confrontation.


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## Sandor (Jul 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
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> *I want to amend my answer. I have never used any Kenpo techniques to save my @ss. All I have been able to use are Kenpo basics.
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Properly applied any technique on the street should be just basics. For example; I've tried Five Swords several times in the past and never got beyond the handsword to the side of the neck. (adrenaline running and sending the heelpalm off into outerspace to the amusement of coworkers). A handsword to the side of neck can produce very good results in short order. So, was it 'Five Swords' or merely a basic block and no frills chop?

That said, there are techniques that I have used that may nullify your(and my) point. Sleeper works extremely well and I have used it(the entry and the hold) on many occaisions, though I never felt compelled to take the person down after locking them up(honestly, I usually ran them out the door of the club at that point). Was it a technique at that point or just a block and a reverse handsword followed by a lock? I dunno, as long as it contributed to my safety/survival in less than ideal circumstances it was all good 

Peace,
Sandor


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## satans.barber (Jul 22, 2002)

I've been reading this thread, but not participating in it since I never have used kenpo for real, however....

Here's a question that'll let other people join in as well: of the people that *haven't* used it, how many of you have confidence that it won't let you down if you do have to, or do you tend more to have a nagging feeling that you're wasting your time (from an effectiveness point of view, ignoring fitness and making friends etc.)?

I myself have moved from the former to the latter, then back to the former and back to the latter again ad infinitum. 

Just when I think I'm building up a little faith, I read something about the brutalities of street fighting and decide the only way to win is to be an animal! Then I read about someone who has used kenpo in the street and my faith is restored.

I suppose, we shall just see on the day, if and when the day comes.

Paradoxically, the more we learn about situation awareness and so forth, the more we reduce the risk of an encounter anyway, so the more prepared we become the less we need to be so. Interesting stuff.

Ian.


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