# What is Kenpo Good For?



## Danjo

We're hearing things all the time about how Kenpo/Kempo is or isn't street effective etc. The same is true of every MA out there. The answers from practitioners range from: "Heck yeah this is street effective _as is_!" to "Not really, but I do it for the _love_ of the art." to "Well, it's good for the reflexes and everything, but it couldn't really be used to fight with without modification."

When I read that Sheriff memo that Doc posted I thought I'd start a separate thread to discuss this aspect of it. Is Kenpo effective for real fighting? If not, why do you do it? If so, give some cases in point of where you've either used it, or have seen it used in a real fight and whether it had to be modified or was used as it was taught. Also include if TKD, Karate, Kick Boxing, Muy Thai etc. could have been used just as effectively in the same situation.

The point of this is to figure out whether Kenpo in particular and the Martial Arts in general are worth pursuing if one is looking to learn how to fight. If not, why did the Masters of old create it? Why did they do it the way they did? Did fights happen differently than they do now? Did untrained attackers attack differently [having been exposed to the existence of traditional MA techniques form the media] than they do now and thus allowed the traditional techniques to work then where they wouldn't now a days? Have they evolved into something that doesn't work, but that used to work the way it was first taught? Has too much showiness crept in? Has the need to teach it to the masses watered it down? Too much point sparring crept in? Do the techniques work, but only if they are applied correctly, or do they not work at all as is and always have to be modified? If they DO have to be modified, why were they created the way they were in the first place rather than the way that really works?

In other words: What is Kenpo good for? If it's not good for fighting as is, why are we doing it as is?


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## ChineseKempoJerry

I too saw that memo from Doc. It is, what it is. Some people will take something and turn it into whatever they need it to be. Some will need self-defense, some sport, and for some, a type of filler to complete the void in their life.

One thing remains constant - fighting has universal laws or truths, no matter the style you study. If you study well, you will start to understand how simple fighting really is!

If you want to look pretty while you are fighting, well . . . . good luck!

Let us remember there are only so many ways to punch and kick someone?

Best Regards,

Jerry


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## Makalakumu

I've practiced a lot of different arts and, in general, if an untrained and unskilled attacker presented, the effectiveness of an art would come down to the level of athleticism in the attacker.  I've seen some street fight videos where two guys are going crazy and alot of the assumptions that certain arts make have no basis in reality.  For example, does a "blocked" punch stay blocked?


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## hongkongfooey

I think that most people are too hung up on the fighting part of MA's. Honestly, when was the last time someone on forum was in a fight that didn't stem from ego or mouth overloading *** syndrome? 

The vast majority of the adults that I know haven't been in a fight of any kind since they themselves were a young person with a big mouth and a lot of ego.

I myself do Kenpo because I like to do it. I enjoy the interaction with my instructors and classmates. I enjoy the hard contact. I always wanted to do martial arts. Now I am.


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## Danjo

ChineseKempoJerry said:
			
		

> Let us remember there are only so many ways to punch and kick someone?


 
Right. So are the ways that we are taught to fight sufficient for those ways or do they have to be modified to be of any use? If they are _not_ sufficient, then why were they designed that way in the first place?


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## Danjo

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> I've practiced a lot of different arts and, in general, if an untrained and unskilled attacker presented, the effectiveness of an art would come down to the level of athleticism in the attacker. I've seen some street fight videos where two guys are going crazy and alot of the assumptions that certain arts make have no basis in reality. For example, does a "blocked" punch stay blocked?


 
So does any big strong athletic guy have it over a smaller less athletic guy regardless of the smaller fellow's training? Would someone be better served going to a gym and pumping iron and runing a track than practicing the martial arts?


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## Danjo

hongkongfooey said:
			
		

> I think that most people are too hung up on the fighting part of MA's. Honestly, when was the last time someone on forum was in a fight that didn't stem from ego or mouth overloading *** syndrome?
> 
> The vast majority of the adults that I know haven't been in a fight of any kind since they themselves were a young person with a big mouth and a lot of ego.
> 
> I myself do Kenpo because I like to do it. I enjoy the interaction with my instructors and classmates. I enjoy the hard contact. I always wanted to do martial arts. Now I am.


 
Yep. I've heard this one many times before and it has the advantage of not being refutable. If you're not learning Kenpo to fight, then it is of no use asking whether it is effective in a fight. It would be like asking "How battle efective are the Samurai sword tactics in real battle?" Answer:"Who cares since we don't have wars with those any more?"

But is Kenpo in that same catagory? Is it as outdated as Kendo for fighting? But then, why _would_ it be? The weapons of warfare have changed over the years, but the human body has not? Did no one really know how to fight before the 20th century or the advent of the UFC?


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## Makalakumu

Danjo said:
			
		

> So does any big strong athletic guy have it over a smaller less athletic guy regardless of the smaller fellow's training? Would someone be better served going to a gym and pumping iron and runing a track than practicing the martial arts?


 
I think that both are ultimately required if one's goal is self defense.  Also, in regards to one's training, the need to be honest to that goal is essential.


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## Pacificshore

Danjo said:
			
		

> Did no one really know how to fight before the 20th century or the advent of the UFC?


In my opinion, I don't think it is a matter of whether or not people of the past knew how to fight.  I mean if you take two combatants and everything being equal, then the superior combatant will win plain and simple.  What would make them superior?  Well it could be their conditioning, their tactical/strategic mindedness, their physical build, etc.  They just didn't use the same terminology that we obviously use by today's standards.  In the end, fighting is fighting straight up, trained or untrained.  Does one have to gouge out one's eyes to be successful?  Or can one be pummeled to death??  That all depends on the seriousiness of the fight.  Times have changed..back then a fight often meant to the death, nowadays, there are too many consequences to face, more people around as witnesses, video cameras, or simply friends of the combatants that won't necessarily go that far, unless of course its a street-gang type fight.  Just my 2 cents!


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## hongkongfooey

Danjo said:
			
		

> Yep. I've heard this one many times before and it has the advantage of not being refutable. If you're not learning Kenpo to fight, then it is of no use asking whether it is effective in a fight. It would be like asking "How battle efective are the Samurai sword tactics in real battle?" Answer:"Who cares since we don't have wars with those any more?"
> 
> But is Kenpo in that same catagory? Is it as outdated as Kendo for fighting? But then, why _would_ it be? The weapons of warfare have changed over the years, but the human body has not? Did no one really know how to fight before the 20th century or the advent of the UFC?


 
Danjo,

 Don't get me wrong. The self defense aspect of Kenpo is very important to me. I do believe that the system is effective. People need to realize that Kenpo is a contact activity. The techniques will work if the proper amount of force is applied. If someone is not being hit or hitting their training partners, they're kidding themselves. I am not advocating beating each other senseless, but, I have seen classes where advanced belts literally whined if they received a little bit of contact. How are these people gonna defend themselves if they can't take a  shot in a sterile environment like the classroom? 

 Sadly, there are many Kenpo schools like that out there. We really are becoming the next McDojo system. I have been in schools that only worked in the air, not on a live body. Schools that professed to generate their chi into strikes that would totally incapacitate their opponet. I have been in Kenpo schools that didn't even teach a form of Kenpo of any kind.
I have been in Parker system schools that would make Ed Parker roll over in his grave. Slappy, fast movements, but no stances or power in the strikes. Why is everyone so concerned with speed above everything else?


 I don't believe that Kenpo is outdated. It just needs to trained right.
This is my second time around in Kenpo. My first school's teacher was a good martial artist, he just didn't want to teach. But, he did want the money, though. There are a lot of teachers like that out there.

Dave


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## hongkongfooey

Pacificshore said:
			
		

> In my opinion, I don't think it is a matter of whether or not people of the past knew how to fight. I mean if you take two combatants and everything being equal, then the superior combatant will win plain and simple. What would make them superior? Well it could be their conditioning, their tactical/strategic mindedness, their physical build, etc. They just didn't use the same terminology that we obviously use by today's standards. In the end, fighting is fighting straight up, trained or untrained. Does one have to gouge out one's eyes to be successful? Or can one be pummeled to death?? That all depends on the seriousiness of the fight. Times have changed..back then a fight often meant to the death, nowadays, there are too many consequences to face, more people around as witnesses, video cameras, or simply friends of the combatants that won't necessarily go that far, unless of course its a street-gang type fight. Just my 2 cents!


 
Don't forget blood borne pathogens, like HIV and Hepatitis


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## celtic_crippler

I can tell you from personal experience that the Kenpo I learned/am learning is very effective for self-defense. Kenpo has benefited me in other ways as well though. I've learned patience, discipline, and developed a hunger for overall self-improvement. However, I think that Kenpo fulfills different needs for different people. 

As far as the art being an effective form of self-defense for the street, I think it's important to look at how American Kenpo is defined by the Encyclopedia of Kenpo: An updated and all-inclusive version of Kenpo, based on logic and practicality, that has been designed to cope with the mode of fighting prevalent on our streets today. 

So, step back and take a long look at what you're practicing and training with. Then take a long look at your envirnonment. What's going on in the world today? Gangs are prelavent on the streets today so are you practicing multiple attacker techniques? Every day you see a news story about someone getting a gun pulled on them. Are you practicing defenses against this? UFC is a major influence and whether they're trained or not, people tend to mimic what they see on T.V. So, are you training against shoots and takedowns? 

Our environment is constantly changing. The great thing about Kenpo is that it's a very flexible system. The principles behind the techniques and maneuvers are sound. You just have to be creative and aware enough to adapt them and change as your world changes around you. 

IMHO =)


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## evenflow1121

Danjo said:
			
		

> We're hearing things all the time about how Kenpo/Kempo is or isn't street effective etc. The same is true of every MA out there. The answers from practitioners range from: "Heck yeah this is street effective _as is_!" to "Not really, but I do it for the _love_ of the art." to "Well, it's good for the reflexes and everything, but it couldn't really be used to fight with without modification."
> 
> When I read that Sheriff memo that Doc posted I thought I'd start a separate thread to discuss this aspect of it. Is Kenpo effective for real fighting? If not, why do you do it? If so, give some cases in point of where you've either used it, or have seen it used in a real fight and whether it had to be modified or was used as it was taught. Also include if TKD, Karate, Kick Boxing, Muy Thai etc. could have been used just as effectively in the same situation.
> 
> The point of this is to figure out whether Kenpo in particular and the Martial Arts in general are worth pursuing if one is looking to learn how to fight. If not, why did the Masters of old create it? Why did they do it the way they did? Did fights happen differently than they do now? Did untrained attackers attack differently [having been exposed to the existence of traditional MA techniques form the media] than they do now and thus allowed the traditional techniques to work then where they wouldn't now a days? Have they evolved into something that doesn't work, but that used to work the way it was first taught? Has too much showiness crept in? Has the need to teach it to the masses watered it down? Too much point sparring crept in? Do the techniques work, but only if they are applied correctly, or do they not work at all as is and always have to be modified? If they DO have to be modified, why were they created the way they were in the first place rather than the way that really works?
> 
> In other words: What is Kenpo good for? If it's not good for fighting as is, why are we doing it as is?


 
Lol, Blasphemy.  No in all seriousness good post.  I kind of look at martial arts now in a different light than I did when I was younger and perhaps that is one of hte reasons your post attracted my reply, great post BTW.  I sort of compare not just Kenpo but any martial art to taking the State Bar Exam, no matter how many questions you do, no matter how many hours you put in, no matter how many work shops or courses you invest in, there are no guarantees you are going to pass it, but what you do have is a greater chance of passing.  Like wise, in any martial arts, no matter how much time and effort you put in, there are no guarantees that you are going to become this unbelievable fighter and be ready for any situation, at any time, at any point in your life, but you will have a better chance of being ready than you would without it.  

Is Kenpo effective? As a practicioner and as biased as this may sound, Yes I believe it is.  Is it ineffective? It certainly can be like anything else.  A lot of it comes down to the student and the particular teacher.  If you have a lousy teacher, or if you choose to enroll in some Mc Dojo chances are your kenpo is not going to be very effective, if you are a lousy student, chances are your kenpo will not be very effective either.  I am pretty sure that the techniques can work without applying them fully, that however does not mean that one should not teach them fully, it just means what it means sometimes you might knock someone out and not have to complete the entire thing, in other instances and especially in a spur of the moment situation, you may forget the technique and do something else, however, if you had a good teacher I d be pretty certain that whatever you pull off that got you out of that situation safely was as a result of his or her teachings.


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## Danjo

My thinking is that there is a high correlation between how effective a MA is and what it's origins are. 

If it was originated as a sport, then it's fighting value is going to be reduced. If it was originated by a street fighter, ie, Motobu, Chow, Emperado etc., then its fighting value will be greater.

 Of course it still goes to how it is taught and trained. Even the most effective MA will not work if it's done poorly. Another category are those MAs that have been so modified by successive teachers that have never fought outside of sparring or a tournement that they no longer serve their purpose as a fighting art. Some one, or someones decided that they knew better than the founder and changed it so much that it no longer works very well. Some changes are made due to tournement needs and so that they look better to an audience when doing a kata. Some are made because of the limited contact allowed in a tournement and so certain techniques that suit a point fighting system are emphasised and ones that are more appropriate to the street are played down or discarded altogether. Either way, the MA is watered down to where it cannot be used as is. 

Some arts intentionally had the more combative aspects of the art removed to make it more conducive to teaching them to school children in a physical education class and were then further removed from any fighting value so that the deep stances etc. would look better when doing forms.

Either way, I cannot imagine a true fighter teaching garbage that didn't really work to their students.

This isn't to say that this stuff would work in a sporting event without changes. Rules, referees and the fact that you're facing a skilled martial artist and athelete change things immensely.


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## Gentle Fist

hongkongfooey said:
			
		

> Sadly, there are many Kenpo schools like that out there. We really are becoming the next McDojo system.


 
I think there is already plenty of McDojo's out there with the Ken(m)po banner.  It really comes down to the instructor and their objective.  Some instructors only care about paying rent for their studio as well as their mortgage.  Look at guys like William Chow.  He taught out of a YMCA had little to no money and could kick the crap out of any man on the island and over on the mainland for that matter.  

Simply put, he didn't do it for the money.  Martial Arts is primarily all business now, and less than half of the people out there really know what the hell they are doing.


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## SKKnidan

Kempo is effective if you train the right way.  If you expect your attacker to stand there after doing a straight right punch then you are dead, but if you move quick , strike quick, hit hard and know a little grappling the kempo foundation is excellent.


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## Inkspill

American Kenpo is the most sophisticated Karate, however, not all Kenpo is equal. American Kenpo, when executed correctly, is effective. It is important to ask, is MY Kenpo effective? For many, it isn't. It's a combination of things that contribute to this, you can't teach what you don't know, and if you don't learn what is taught, you end up with junk.. all sorts of things that lead to crappy Kenpo. It starts with the basics.


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## Humble Student

hongkongfooey said:


> I think that most people are too hung up on the fighting part of MA's. Honestly, when was the last time someone on forum was in a fight that didn't stem from ego or mouth overloading *** syndrome?
> 
> The vast majority of the adults that I know haven't been in a fight of any kind since they themselves were a young person with a big mouth and a lot of ego.


I could not have said that any better sir.
But I am even sure that even SGM Parker would agree that it is not the art but the person training that matters.
And there intent for training.


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## LawDog

It is the Instructors who make a system effective and their students who will someday carry it on. The true martial artist does not train to street fight but rather to prevent it. The professionals train with the intent of fighting.


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## Manny

LawDog said:


> It is the Instructors who make a system effective and their students who will someday carry it on. The true martial artist does not train to street fight but rather to prevent it. The professionals train with the intent of fighting.



Well done, for sure your words are wise ones. If I get a dolar for every single moment somebody tell me for example TKD not works out in the streets (I am a TKD BB) for sure maybe I will not be a rich man but I could pay my family a good six month Europe trip.

The same I've been herd about judo, many people think judo is nothing more than a sport but believe me I would not engage with a nice judoka on the mat not even in the streets.

Manny


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## LawDog

Both work well when a student is properly trained for it.


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## Ironcrane

Well, if nothing else, Kenpo makes for a nifty music video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJd_FpS3nPQ&list=FLeUEUZ0tsO5qtHnGqw6NqNw&index=153&feature=plpp_vid

But in seriousness every single martial art style has been dismissed for one reason or another, usually by someone repeating made up statistics. I'd just ignore all of that, and make up your own mind.


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## Lightning Ram

A question if Kenpo is effective, it has for me in my health, mind, and for self-defense. I would say that for some people it is not, and that could because of there Instructor or how they trained and continue to do there training. I have worked out with people that would continue to abuse there body and mind with other aspects of there life and wonder why they were not progressing. I have people telling me that MMA is better for self defense but when I spar with them they don't want me to kick to the groin. I know a few fighters that train to fight but it does seem they are progressing in there mind. I think its how you put all aspects of your training together that makes you effective.


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## OLD DOG NEW TRICKS

Hello Dan, this is just my 2 cents worth. I am an old school martial artist from the late 70's with a BB in Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do with over 12 years of instructing and training in the Detroit area. Also some Akido training in the mix. After a long period of not training, I joined a local American Kenpo Club and a TKD club a few years ago. The old boring TKD became old very quickly for me because it was very similiar to my Tang Soo Do training, but the Kenpo, WOW. American Kenpo Ed Parker system really is a study of motion and I feel is Chess to checkers with my old style. 

It was not an easy transition going from old hard style Korean to Kenpo because everything was done in a different way and breaking my old habits took some training time. Now that I feel I have started to get a good feel for kenpo I believe it is a great if not superior addition to my background and would not hesitate to use pure Kenpo in a street fight over my old style. I do think the two styels compliment eachother very well, and to be a well rounded fighter I would need some more ground training as well, but I am getting to old for that beating, haaaaaaa. All styles are good depending on what you want to get out of it. All I know is that for a 50+ year old man I can hold my own in most situations and feel great training with all age groups. 

Thank you

Dave H.


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## Tames D

KENPO CRAZY said:


> Hello Dan, this is just my 2 cents worth. I am an old school martial artist from the late 70's with a BB in Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do with over 12 years of instructing and training in the Detroit area. Also some Akido training in the mix. After a long period of not training, I joined a local American Kenpo Club and a TKD club a few years ago. The old boring TKD became old very quickly for me because it was very similiar to my Tang Soo Do training, but the Kenpo, WOW. American Kenpo Ed Parker system really is a study of motion and I feel is Chess to checkers with my old style.
> 
> It was not an easy transition going from old hard style Korean to Kenpo because everything was done in a different way and breaking my old habits took some training time. Now that I feel I have started to get a good feel for kenpo I believe it is a great if not superior addition to my background and would not hesitate to use pure Kenpo in a street fight over my old style. I do think the two styels compliment eachother very well, and to be a well rounded fighter I would need some more ground training as well, but I am getting to old for that beating, haaaaaaa. All styles are good depending on what you want to get out of it. All I know is that for a 50+ year old man I can hold my own in most situations and feel great training with all age groups.
> 
> Thank you
> 
> Dave H.



Good post! Welcome to Martialtalk Dave.


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## OLD DOG NEW TRICKS

KENPO CRAZY said:


> Hello Dan, this is just my 2 cents worth. I am an old school martial artist from the late 70's with a BB in Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do with over 12 years of instructing and training in the Detroit area. Also some Akido training in the mix. After a long period of not training, I joined a local American Kenpo Club and a TKD club a few years ago. The old boring TKD became old very quickly for me because it was very similiar to my Tang Soo Do training, but the Kenpo, WOW. American Kenpo Ed Parker system really is a study of motion and I feel is Chess to checkers with my old style.
> 
> It was not an easy transition going from old hard style Korean to Kenpo because everything was done in a different way and breaking my old habits took some training time. Now that I feel I have started to get a good feel for kenpo I believe it is a great if not superior addition to my background and would not hesitate to use pure Kenpo in a street fight over my old style. I do think the two styels compliment eachother very well, and to be a well rounded fighter I would need some more ground training as well, but I am getting to old for that beating, haaaaaaa. All styles are good depending on what you want to get out of it. All I know is that for a 50+ year old man I can hold my own in most situations and feel great training with all age groups.
> 
> Thank you
> 
> Dave H.


 
NOW THE INSTRUCTOR BECOMES THE STUDENT. A Black Belt is a white belt, who never quit!*
HAPPINESS IS WANTING WHAT YOU ALREADY HAVE.**
"For evil to flourish, all that is needed is for good people to do nothing. MARTIAL ARTS MAGAZINE ( KENPO)*
Kenpo Karate is a self-defense system based on the natural movements of the body, the basic law of science that for every action there is an equal reaction.
Kenpo is absolutely the most ferocious style of martial arts today. Kenpo is the best and most scientific self defense system in the world at this time. 
The style emphasizes incapacitating your opponent quickly so you can be ready for another attack.Kenpo training emphasizes a scientific approach to combat and features techniques
influenced by various Chinese, Japanese and Hawaiian arts. Many rapid-fire hand techniques and combinations are used.
The more frequently one trains and becomes proficient at the martial arts, the more one discovers that they have less to defend against. Confidence begins to replace fear. 
Defensive skills become internalized resulting in one&#8217;s ability to walk life&#8217;s path appreciating its simple pleasures rather than be blinded by its daily perils. 
*&#8220;Fat, drunk, and stupid is no way to go through life, son.&#8221;*
- DEAN WORMER (John Vernon) in National Lampoon&#8217;s Animal House (1978)
*I am become death, the destroyer of worlds.
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## KempoKop

I see this thread has been around for quite some time with some long breaks in between posts.  Since it has popped up fairly recently I will share my 2 cents.  I think Kenpo is an excellent system for self-defense.  Mr. Parker and a good many of the off shoots of his style really took the techniques to a different level. Kenpo is study of a combat art but very much a study of motion.  An action causes a certain reaction which in turn causes a further action.  A great many people take a martial art to "learn how to fight".  I define a fight as one person steps up to another and the fight is on.  Truthfully most of those turn into ugly flaying until it goes to the ground and then it turns into ugly grappling, technique goes out the window. Any art worth its salt will provide a student with "tools" different ways to strike, kick, grab as well as conditioning and target acquisition, will that in itself make a person a great "fighter"?  ...no. It will make them better than no training at all.  Kenpo as I stated is a excellent system of self defense, meaning with proper training and conditioning a well practiced student will commit movements to subconscious memory thus when grabbed, or pushed a certain way they will react without hesitation and pretty much come out of the situation for the better. That is very different then two idiots standing toe to toe bull chested waiting to see who throws the first punch.


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## jorgemp

All martial arts improve some of your skills.

Kenpo is good to practice your uchi waza combinations. For other purposes, other arts are better, i.e. ground fighting, BJJ; fist combinations, boxing; high kicks, taekwondo, etc.


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## Touch Of Death

jorgemp said:


> All martial arts improve some of your skills.
> 
> Kenpo is good to practice your uchi waza combinations. For other purposes, other arts are better, i.e. ground fighting, BJJ; fist combinations, boxing; high kicks, taekwondo, etc.


As the hairs stand on the back of my neck, Other arts are not better for kicking they are different for kicking. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.


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## jorgemp

Touch Of Death said:


> As the hairs stand on the back of my neck, Other arts are not better for kicking they are different for kicking. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.



Kenpo has its own kicks (for example, ushiro geri keage). But explosive, high kicks usually  aren´t as practiced by  kenpoists as by taekwondists.

I can´t imagine Joe Palanzo kicking as proficiently as Suska: 







But surely Suska´s uchi waza combinations are nos as speed as those of Larry Tatum:


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## Touch Of Death

jorgemp said:


> Kenpo has its own kicks (for example, ushiro geri keage). But explosive, high kicks usually  aren´t as practiced by  kenpoists as by taekwondists
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But surely Suska´s uchi waza combinations are nos as speed as those of Larry Tatum:


Explosive high does not mean the kick is better; it means the kick is higher.


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## jorgemp

Touch Of Death said:


> Explosive high does not mean the kick is better; it means the kick is higher.



In kenpo, taekwondo-style kicks are used, for example, "reprimanding the bears" is a set that could be easily used in ho sin sul (TKD self defense).


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## Buka

I imagine anybody from a Kenpo system is going to make only positive statements about Kenpo. I am not of a Kenpo system so I speak freely and only base my statements on my personal experience. I only know Kenpo from a half dozen dojos, all in the New England area. Joe Espositos in Newton MA (I've dropped in and trained with them for over thirty years at the same place) Tony Cogliandro's organization and his schools past and present (same time frame) George Pasare's in Rhode Island, Kalii Kano Griffin's in Springfield MA, Nick Cerios (may they RIP)

I can tell you a couple things. They all trained hard. _Real_ hard. (no dry gis on any night) They could all fight like the Dickens. Not just in the dojo and not just in tournaments, I mean those boys could fight. And all gentlemen and ladies.

I like Kenpo.


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## Touch Of Death

jorgemp said:


> In kenpo, taekwondo-style kicks are used, for example, "reprimanding the bears" is a set that could be easily used in ho sin sul (TKD self defense).


That was TKD style, huh?


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## MartialMellow

Is Kenpo similar to the Chinese "Quan" arts?:idunno:


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## jorgemp

Touch Of Death said:


> That was TKD style, huh?



Ap chagi, moo rop chagi, yop chagi are TKD leg kicks. Backfist are also used in TKD.

Really, "reprimanding the bears" is a technique that could be used in TKD. Also, TKD kicks training methods could be used in kenpo.

Lima lama is a fighting style that combines kenpo and TKD.


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## jorgemp

MartialMellow said:


> Is Kenpo similar to the Chinese "Quan" arts?:idunno:



Chinese styles often use longer movements. Kenpo movements use to be short range techniques.


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## Touch Of Death

jorgemp said:


> Chinese styles often use longer movements. Kenpo movements use to be short range techniques.


That would be depend on who's Kenpo you are talking about.


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## wingchun100

This may be oversimplifying things, but the only time I have seen a martial art be ineffective is when you go to a school where you use it only against other people practicing the same style. I went to a school where all we did was spar as if we were in a tournament, which isn't realistic because people aren't going to fight that way on the street! You have to practice in self-defense situations.


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## Touch Of Death

wingchun100 said:


> This may be oversimplifying things, but the only time I have seen a martial art be ineffective is when you go to a school where you use it only against other people practicing the same style. I went to a school where all we did was spar as if we were in a tournament, which isn't realistic because people aren't going to fight that way on the street! You have to practice in self-defense situations.


Then why do you train? Or... do you train?


----------



## wingchun100

Are you kidding me right now? I have seen PLENTY of other people share a similar opinion on this site multiple times. The only way sparring "wing chun vs. wing chun" or "kenpo vs. kenpo" or whatever would work...is if everyone else on the street practiced the same style. But they don't, so if all you have trained against are people attacking you with the tools found in your system...well, good luck.


----------



## Touch Of Death

wingchun100 said:


> Are you kidding me right now? I have seen PLENTY of other people share a similar opinion on this site multiple times. The only way sparring "wing chun vs. wing chun" or "kenpo vs. kenpo" or whatever would work...is if everyone else on the street practiced the same style. But they don't, so if all you have trained against are people attacking you with the tools found in your system...well, good luck.


It may interest you to know I have trained with different systems, and while the rules change on what you are allowed to do to your attacker, the attacks don't really change. So no I am not Kidding.


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## Kung Fu Wang

Danjo said:


> how Kenpo/Kempo is or isn't street effective etc.


When I had my commercial school, my school was just few blocks away from Tony Martinez's Kempo school.

Tony and I had sparred one time (we were both young back then). He was very good with very fast hands. Later on I had sparred with many other Kempo Karate guys. They all like to drop their leading arm straight down. When I punched at their head, they would use a haymaker (they may call that ridge hand) to block my straight punch, and then hit on the side of my head with that haymaker. I have no doubt that the Kempo Karate is an effective combat art.

page2


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## Touch Of Death

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When I had my commercial school, my school was just few blocks away from Tony Martinez's Kempo school.
> 
> Tony and I had sparred one time (we were both young back then). He was very good with very fast hands. Later on I had sparred with many other Kempo Karate guys. They all like to drop their leading arm straight down. When I punched at their head, they would use a haymaker (they may call that ridge hand) to block my straight punch, and then hit on the side of my head with that haymaker. I have no doubt that the Kempo Karate is an effective combat art.
> 
> page2


Not all Kenpo guys like to do that. I sparred a guy once that dropped his lead from another school, I remember wondering if it wasn't vulnerable to a pull-drag knife edge kick. It was.


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## wingchun100

Touch Of Death said:


> It may interest you to know I have trained with different systems, and while the rules change on what you are allowed to do to your attacker, the attacks don't really change. So no I am not Kidding.



Well good for you. There ARE some people who still practice that wAy. Otherwise it wouldn't be a sentiment I have seen expressed numerous times on this site.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Touch Of Death

wingchun100 said:


> Well good for you. There ARE some people who still practice that wAy. Otherwise it wouldn't be a sentiment I have seen expressed numerous times on this site.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You can find people expressing all kinds of opinions on this site. But if that proves it to you, I won't try to argue.


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## jorgemp

wingchun100 said:


> Are you kidding me right now? I have seen PLENTY of other people share a similar opinion on this site multiple times. The only way sparring "wing chun vs. wing chun" or "kenpo vs. kenpo" or whatever would work...is if everyone else on the street practiced the same style. But they don't, so if all you have trained against are people attacking you with the tools found in your system...well, good luck.



A man had a mistake: to fight with his fists against a boxer:






But this other guy used his feet:


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## Brother John

Danjo said:


> We're hearing things all the time about how Kenpo/Kempo is or isn't street effective etc. The same is true of every MA out there. The answers from practitioners range from: "Heck yeah this is street effective _as is_!" to "Not really, but I do it for the _love_ of the art." to "Well, it's good for the reflexes and everything, but it couldn't really be used to fight with without modification."
> 
> When I read that Sheriff memo that Doc posted I thought I'd start a separate thread to discuss this aspect of it. Is Kenpo effective for real fighting? If not, why do you do it?
> 
> *The point of this is to figure out whether Kenpo in particular and the Martial Arts in general are worth pursuing if one is looking to learn how to fight*. If not, why did the Masters of old create it? Why did they do it the way they did?
> Did fights happen differently than they do now?
> Did untrained attackers attack differently [having been exposed to the existence of traditional MA techniques form the media] than they do now and thus allowed the traditional techniques to work then where they wouldn't now a days?
> Have they evolved into something that doesn't work, but that used to work the way it was first taught?
> Has too much showiness crept in?
> Has the need to teach it to the masses watered it down?
> Too much point sparring crept in?
> Do the techniques work, but only if they are applied correctly, or do they not work at all as is and always have to be modified?
> If they DO have to be modified, why were they created the way they were in the first place rather than the way that really works?
> 
> In other words: What is Kenpo good for? If it's not good for fighting as is, why are we doing it as is?


Wow Dan, that's a good many questions. 

I've got to confess that having been abscent from MT for a good long time I'm coming late to the party here and haven't yet taken the time to read even the very first reply (looks like by some fella named "ChineseKempoJerry") ...but I hope to when I get more time. SO if I'm just rehashing what several others have said.....ignore and be patient with your brother...

Kenpo is NOT good for fighting at all. You (nor *anyone else*) can fight With it one whit. 
Because...
Kenpo doesn't fight. Kenpoists may, but when they do...they don't "Use Kenpo"...they use their mental/physical toughness, their instincts (well or poorly developed) their own sense of body-mechanics (Raw OR Cultivated) and their body (well or poorly developed). Nothing else. If they've trained well in Kenpo, under instructors/coaches who know what they're doing....then hopefully EACH of these aspects of themselves will be Well developed and well cultivated. If not, then they'd better have a good set of genetics and a heavy stick. 

Kenpo isn't a "Fighting Art", because NO art can fight. It's a system (strategy / body of knowledge / method of practice) for how to develop and cultivate a fighter's: 
1. mental/physical toughness
2. their instincts
3. their sense of body-mechanics (habits of motion) 
4. their body

IF their training (be it boxing, Gong-Fu, Karate, Savate, Silat, Judo, Ken(M)po...etc) does not address and strive to highten each of these, then it's probably left them at a disadvantage and they should practice being Very Very courteous, friendly and avoid large crowds, bars and public transportation. 

We all too often talk of an evaluation of our art or the arts of others as though the ART or system of training that they went through were an independant organism in and of itself that one could heft and smack another with. Kenpo doesn't 'fight'. It's a concept / paradigm as to how to prepare to fight. 

THEN....talking of an "art" as a whole isn't all that helpful just because in the end it's not the art that matters but each individual artist. Even if you're evaluating how well any particular art makes an artist, how well suited it is to prepare one for fighting......it's still not all that useful, because it's still not a "whole". For instance: my general (VERY VERY general) sentiment toward two particular arts: Olympic Tae Kwan Do and Kajukenbo. ((hope I don't hurt anyones feelings)) I feel that in GENERAL: Kajukenbo's usual curriculm and training style is 'good' for preparing one for real world fighting while I feel the exact opposite toward Olympic Tae Kwan Do!
BUT...and this is a big one.....   If we squared off black belts from each system....I'd still put my hard earned money down on the OTKD guy who'd trained with ALL his heart in a very dedicated gym under the coaching of experienced instructors...... than on the half-hearted Kaju black belt who did the bare minimum to get by in a school that lets people advance by doing the bare minimum to get by. 
period

I'd take a masterful crayon drawing on a napkin over a sloppily done oil painting on canvas ANY day. 

Can Kenpo fight?    No
Can Kenpoists fight??  I've known many that SURE CAN....and many more that should just make friends with the biggest kid in class and hope for the best. 

Your Brother (not the biggest kid)
John


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## wingchun100

Touch Of Death said:


> You can find people expressing all kinds of opinions on this site. But if that proves it to you, I won't try to argue.



That's not my point. The point is it isn't like that was the first time anyone has said this around here, yet I don't see you or anyone else disagreeing with it until *I* said it.


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## Touch Of Death

wingchun100 said:


> That's not my point. The point is it isn't like that was the first time anyone has said this around here, yet I don't see you or anyone else disagreeing with it until *I* said it.


It was nothing personal.


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## dgm1327

As in any combat system or model, you get out what you put in. A well rounded combat model goes without saying when it comes to providing the best odds of surviving a violent encounter. It's what you do with the material that's important, not what the material can do.  Another consideration should be the physical and mental conditioning needed to be successful with the material learned, which can not be over stated.

With Respect,

Damien


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## hoshin1600

well despite the fact that this thread is 8 years old now, it seems its still of interest to people and a sensitive subject.  to comment on Brother Johns post.  i fully understand your points however i feel it's a given that people are different and the true ability to fight is in the person not the art. that being said i feel this logic is a cop out and prevents a deeper look at the subject.   there are many die hard practitioners of kenpo/ kempo and with all due respect to them if they havnt done an equal amount of time in other arts then their opinion is biased and very unlikely to reveal any insights.  the question could be refined a bit.  all things being equal would i be a better fighter if i spent 5 years studying kenpo or 5 years studying some other art ?(pick any art you like).  this takes the unknown factors out of the equation and only looks at the art itself.  it would be like a side by side comparision of two wall street stock pics to see which one will give the better return/ preformance in 5 years.  when questioned in this manner there can be some real insights into our training.  the problem is that there has to be a certain amount of introspection done and individual bias must be put aside.  easer said then done but the growth from asking these questions can be well worth the uncomfortable truths we may find in ourselves.


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## Kung Fu Wang

There are 2 kind of people in MA. Those who 

- believes in evolution and doesn't mind cross training.
- has loyalty to his style and believe anything added in will be a water down to his style.

If one is not willing to look beyond, there isn't much to discuss in this subject at all.


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## dgm1327

Kung Fu Wang said:


> There are 2 kind of people in MA. Those who
> 
> - believes in evolution and doesn't mind cross training.
> - has loyalty to his style and believe anything added in will be a water down to his style.
> 
> If one is not willing to look beyond, there isn't much to discuss in this subject at all.



I believe Mr. Parker studied other arts prior to kenpo and afterward.  He analyzed many arts along his journey and either modified or incorporated what he found useful into his art.  Bruce Lee utilized the same philosophy.  They were among many pioneers of their time that cross trained in other arts to improve their combative skill sets.  Both were tremendous athletes, brilliant tactitions and possessed an understanding of combatives beyond the normal practioner.  A true comparison of kenpo, in essence, is a comparison in ideology of what is useful vs. what is not.  The kenpo framework was never meant to stand alone as a combative model without it's core philosophy.  The core philosophy of Ed Parker's kenpo is to absorb what is useful and evolve as a fighter through the three phase concept incorprated into his art.  This philosophy, when put into practice, should provide the practioner with an endless array of possibilities and concepts to explore. 

With Respect,

Damien


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## Touch Of Death

There were these two brothers, Sam Ting, and SamDam Ting.


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## hoshin1600

Kung Fu Wang said:


> There are 2 kind of people in MA. Those who
> 
> - believes in evolution and doesn't mind cross training.
> - has loyalty to his style and believe anything added in will be a water down to his style.
> 
> If one is not willing to look beyond, there isn't much to discuss in this subject at all.



there are also people in the middle.  they may see things in other arts that can improve their understanding of their own art.  there is nothing wrong with only learning one style. i belive this is important to keep an art going for the next generation.  i look at what is happening with language, in 100 years 60% of the languages spoken today will be gone. the same will hold true for martial arts. so preserving a style is important.  but this thread is about fighting.  the problem is that people assume that learning a martial art equals an ability to fight. one has nothing to do with the other.  most arts today are very far removed from true fighting and the people studing them are only doing a kabuki dance. most martial arts are more about fear management rather than danger management.  the belief in ones "system" to keep them from harm and the belief in their abilty based on what goes on in the dojo is truly a very alluring cup of cool aid.


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## Hand Sword

What is it good for?
Dealing with a haymaker or sloppy kick from a drunk barroom frequenter. Aside from that, not too sure anymore.


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## drop bear

hoshin1600 said:


> there are also people in the middle.  they may see things in other arts that can improve their understanding of their own art.  there is nothing wrong with only learning one style. i belive this is important to keep an art going for the next generation.  i look at what is happening with language, in 100 years 60% of the languages spoken today will be gone. the same will hold true for martial arts. so preserving a style is important.  but this thread is about fighting.  the problem is that people assume that learning a martial art equals an ability to fight. one has nothing to do with the other.  most arts today are very far removed from true fighting and the people studing them are only doing a kabuki dance. most martial arts are more about fear management rather than danger management.  the belief in ones "system" to keep them from harm and the belief in their abilty based on what goes on in the dojo is truly a very alluring cup of cool aid.




Just with the invention of good communication and the ability for people around the world to get together and test their stuff has moved martial arts forwards in effectiveness.

We are comparing styles that were used on a small number of specific people to styles that are now global.

We just didn't have the tools then that we have now.

Otherwise I am not sure how you justify the idea that martial arts today is not about fighting. I think true fighting is kind of a romantic notion.


----------



## hoshin1600

let me start by saying that Drop bear is 100% right.  the internet and (love it or hate)  the UFC has changed martial arts for the better.  it has made many wake up and think to themselves that what they have been doing is not enough.  back before the 80's if you trained in more then one style you were a heretic and looked down upon. many of us did what was refered to cross training.  it was considered a poor method of learning. that dedication to one art was better.  but today MMA is a norm and excepted.


> I am not sure how you justify the idea that martial arts today is not about fighting.


the term i would use is psuedo fighting.  now many people focus on sport fighting and thats fine and legit. however a common sentiment even in these forums is that the value of martial arts is in relation to its ability to teach you real street fighting self defense.
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/115-meet-greet/115267-hi-everyone.html
notice in this thread the comments from the poster about how aplicable an art is to real self defense. also notice the subtle but undercurrent, this ability to fight almost seems like a preocupation.  but if one would suggest for a parent to arm their child with a knife for self defense ,,,what kind of lunacy would that be?  but we have no problem in thinking in terms of teaching a child self defense?  does that child really need to "protect themselves" or is it a deep seated fear in the parent that harm may come to their child and there is a need from the parent to protect.  sending the child to karate is a way to ease this fear for the parent.  the same hold true for adults most students enter the dojo because at some level there is a fear, a need to protect themselves.  a need to feel powerfull, confident and have the ability to fight if needed. many will not agree but the fact is you picked a martial arts class not yoga or dance or soft ball, why?  
personaly i train and teach for real self defense. if you want real self defense learn gun tactics and how to quickly take someones life with a knife with minimal engagment, engaging the enemy increases your chance of harm.  if you parctice a horse stance with your hand tucked into your arm pits throwing out punches doing kiai and half moon steping your doing an exersize in fear managment.


> I think true fighting is kind of a romantic notion.


i think this is true. people either have this Indiana Jones vision in their head about how things will go in a real fight, this stems from the fact that they have no real experience so the imagination fills in the gaps or they have the boogey man fear.  that the bad guy is so bad *** that no amount of training will ever be enough.  again lack of experience leads to the exageration of the real threat into a super threat.


----------



## drop bear

hongkongfooey said:


> I think that most people are too hung up on the fighting part of MA's. Honestly, when was the last time someone on forum was in a fight that didn't stem from ego or mouth overloading *** syndrome?
> 
> The vast majority of the adults that I know haven't been in a fight of any kind since they themselves were a young person with a big mouth and a lot of ego.
> 
> I myself do Kenpo because I like to do it. I enjoy the interaction with my instructors and classmates. I enjoy the hard contact. I always wanted to do martial arts. Now I am.




Two weeks ago.at work. A mate dropped a drunk guy and was holding him for the cops. The friend of the drunk came over the top. So I grabbed him took him to the ground and arm locked him.

Now as much as it seemed like half a fight because we were being nice. If they get one up on us they will kick the crap out of us and be gone before anything can be done about it.

Last week a different mate got plasticed in the face by a chick. Took her back we de weaponed her and dragged her out.

This weekend has been pretty sedate so far.

But yeah fighting is pretty sucky and I would prefer not to be doing it.

The concept of the monkey dance is not realistic. Street fights can be preditory.


----------



## drop bear

hoshin1600 said:


> let me start by saying that Drop bear is 100% right.  the internet and (love it or hate)  the UFC has changed martial arts for the better.  it has made many wake up and think to themselves that what they have been doing is not enough.  back before the 80's if you trained in more then one style you were a heretic and looked down upon. many of us did what was refered to cross training.  it was considered a poor method of learning. that dedication to one art was better.  but today MMA is a norm and excepted.
> 
> the term i would use is psuedo fighting.  now many people focus on sport fighting and thats fine and legit. however a common sentiment even in these forums is that the value of martial arts is in relation to its ability to teach you real street fighting self defense.
> http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/115-meet-greet/115267-hi-everyone.html
> notice in this thread the comments from the poster about how aplicable an art is to real self defense. also notice the subtle but undercurrent, this ability to fight almost seems like a preocupation.  but if one would suggest for a parent to arm their child with a knife for self defense ,,,what kind of lunacy would that be?  but we have no problem in thinking in terms of teaching a child self defense?  does that child really need to "protect themselves" or is it a deep seated fear in the parent that harm may come to their child and there is a need from the parent to protect.  sending the child to karate is a way to ease this fear for the parent.  the same hold true for adults most students enter the dojo because at some level there is a fear, a need to protect themselves.  a need to feel powerfull, confident and have the ability to fight if needed. many will not agree but the fact is you picked a martial arts class not yoga or dance or soft ball, why?
> personaly i train and teach for real self defense. if you want real self defense learn gun tactics and how to quickly take someones life with a knife with minimal engagment, engaging the enemy increases your chance of harm.  if you parctice a horse stance with your hand tucked into your arm pits throwing out punches doing kiai and half moon steping your doing an exersize in fear managment.
> 
> i think this is true. people either have this Indiana Jones vision in their head about how things will go in a real fight, this stems from the fact that they have no real experience so the imagination fills in the gaps or they have the boogey man fear.  that the bad guy is so bad *** that no amount of training will ever be enough.  again lack of experience leads to the exageration of the real threat into a super threat.


Not just UFC. Take a look at any of the old school super fighters and compare them with the fighters today.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qrur7U3T8IQ

They are harder faster stronger.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UnkZ9r6xqoM

Mass oyama was one guy and is competing with the collective efforts of a hundred thousand guys.

Just training tools. Does anybody remember these. They were the answer to grappling and striking. And were expensive clumsy and delicate.






While I am on a rant. Before the ufc was the leg kick. It revolutionised striking. You had to fundamentally change your system to deal with it.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Lpl_7w8-jTE


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## hoshin1600

i still own my JKD gloves. one of my student's wife retro-fitted mine with elastics instead of the shoe laces.  made it easier to put on and off. me and my students used them all the time.  
i was often looked at as a heretic for chaining the heavy bad against the wall to a 4" pipe and using it for practicing leg kicks. this was in 1986.  
i dont want to hijack this thread but many people claim the UFC was the birth of MMA. not so.  there was a movement of us all over doing MMA before the term was coined.  the UFC  was born from that movement of thought.  vale tudo being just one outlet.  
but there is an evolution to martial arts,, i guess Darwin was right about something.


----------



## hoshin1600

Notice in this clip the grabbing aspects and leg kicks. WhileI am not impressed with the guard position they are holding their hands at, Ithink this is a good sport sparring match. this is a representation of atraditional style from Okinawa, (I know,,,the clip is from Japan) and for thosenot familiar the rules in uechi sparring is full contact to the body, light orno contact to the face., the rules are gentleman rules, you should be able tobeat your opponent without drawing blood... so expect to be hit in the face butnot full force. and you can take your opponent down the ground but you have 3to 5 seconds to score points before the judge stands you up.
Kumité compétition de Tokyo 2013 - Uechi Ryu - YouTube

this clip has better hand position.
premier combat en championnat international de Uechi-ryu à Tokyo le 28 août 2011 - YouTube


now look at these kenpo guys
Lost Coast Kenpo Karate Test Sparring(6-15-10) - YouTube
if i bash kenpo its because this is not kempo as i learned it 30 years ago... this is MMA.

this is the kenpo sparring i know. i dont like it. clip has stupid sound effects sorry.
Black Belt Sparring - YouTube


----------



## drop bear

hoshin1600 said:


> Notice in this clip the grabbing aspects and leg kicks. WhileI am not impressed with the guard position they are holding their hands at, Ithink this is a good sport sparring match. this is a representation of atraditional style from Okinawa, (I know,,,the clip is from Japan) and for thosenot familiar the rules in uechi sparring is full contact to the body, light orno contact to the face., the rules are gentleman rules, you should be able tobeat your opponent without drawing blood... so expect to be hit in the face butnot full force. and you can take your opponent down the ground but you have 3to 5 seconds to score points before the judge stands you up.
> Kumité compétition de Tokyo 2013 - Uechi Ryu - YouTube
> 
> this clip has better hand position.
> premier combat en championnat international de Uechi-ryu à Tokyo le 28 août 2011 - YouTube
> 
> 
> now look at these kenpo guys
> Lost Coast Kenpo Karate Test Sparring(6-15-10) - YouTube
> if i bash kenpo its because this is not kempo as i learned it 30 years ago... this is MMA.
> 
> this is the kenpo sparring i know. i dont like it. clip has stupid sound effects sorry.
> Black Belt Sparring - YouTube



Yeah it is basically rule sets. If you have continuous sparring with throws. It is going to look like mma. Because that is the dominant style under those conditions. And it is only the dominant style because a lot of people have fought those rule sets and have come to this consensus that there is a certain look that will get you further along.

As to which rule sets you should spar under that becomes the debate.


----------



## hoshin1600

the original thread post was asking what the value of kenpo is.  part of my point in the sparing links is that until recent kenpo sparing did not use these MMA rules. in fact almost no one did.  it was the UFC that made them popular.  what makes an art effective is more about THE WAY you train rather than WHAT you train in.  we all punch, we all kick.  i think it is safe to say a linear punch does not differ much from style to style. the goal is to punch hard.  but its how you practice that makes all the difference.  if you get lost in the menusha of details in punching you have lost my point.  its all about mind set and attitudes.  the intensity of your training.  often if you have only been in one dojo for years you have no idea about the intensity of other schools.  
a dojo is only as good as its top student.  without fail there is another dojo out there that their top student is way better than yours.  i say this because it is often the case  that the top student sets the standard and the pace for all other students to live up to. you would think its the sensei but its not, its the sempai.  
through out the 80"s and 90"s kenpo has given itself a very bad reputation.  one poster here called it a "slap and tickle" style. kenpo is known as the MCdojo of schools.  i think this is a worthy thread to start all by itself, on how this came to be and how to correct it.  now this may be the systems true "value" or its percieved value but regardless if ,,like the sparing rule example your sparing rules involve slap and tickle fighting is there any real value in that?  you may say yes there is value in anything if you look for it, well... you can find a bite to eat from a trash bin but i wouldnt want that reputation.
one problem i see in this thread and debate is that we really have to be talking apples to apples.  we need to separate the difference between the system,the organisation, the school, the teacher and the practitioner. all add their own part to the mix making up the whole.  one poster here may be talking about the system and the other is debating him thinking in terms of a specific organization.
peoples point of view on kenpo often depends on whether your an "insider" or an "outsider"  i happen to be both. i am a 3rd degree black belt in the system and taught for many years and gave it up to study things that met my needs better.  i also used to make it a habit to visit many schools and many styles in many states.
i can honestly say this with no malice intended and no typical attitude about how my style is better than yours...but i will say,   in my experience kenpo deserves the reputation it has.  like i said how this came to be, is subject for another thread but you have made your bed now lie in it.  you may argue against me but i have been there done that got the t-shirt and the belt ranking and from the outsiders perspective i look at a kenpo school and what goes on there and i just shake my head and think to myself "boy am i gald i am not there anymore".
at this point i am pretty much done with this thread because i feel to keep going is just whinning and going round in circles.  like it or not the reputation is yours not mine and so now the issue is what are you going to do moving forward.  what are you going to do about it? because arguing here is not going to change anything.
Frank Sinatra said ; the best revenge is massive success.. so go be the best you can be and make the best students, prove the world wrong rather than trying to prove me wrong here on a web sight.


----------



## Buka

hoshin1600 said:


> the original thread post was asking what the value of kenpo is.  part of my point in the sparing links is that until recent kenpo sparing did not use these MMA rules. in fact almost no one did.  it was the UFC that made them popular.  what makes an art effective is more about THE WAY you train rather than WHAT you train in.  we all punch, we all kick.  i think it is safe to say a linear punch does not differ much from style to style. the goal is to punch hard.  but its how you practice that makes all the difference.  if you get lost in the menusha of details in punching you have lost my point.  its all about mind set and attitudes.  the intensity of your training.  often if you have only been in one dojo for years you have no idea about the intensity of other schools.
> a dojo is only as good as its top student.  without fail there is another dojo out there that their top student is way better than yours.  i say this because it is often the case  that the top student sets the standard and the pace for all other students to live up to. you would think its the sensei but its not, its the sempai.
> through out the 80"s and 90"s kenpo has given itself a very bad reputation.  one poster here called it a "slap and tickle" style. kenpo is known as the MCdojo of schools.  i think this is a worthy thread to start all by itself, on how this came to be and how to correct it.  now this may be the systems true "value" or its percieved value but regardless if ,,like the sparing rule example your sparing rules involve slap and tickle fighting is there any real value in that?  you may say yes there is value in anything if you look for it, well... you can find a bite to eat from a trash bin but i wouldnt want that reputation.
> one problem i see in this thread and debate is that we really have to be talking apples to apples.  we need to separate the difference between the system,the organisation, the school, the teacher and the practitioner. all add their own part to the mix making up the whole.  one poster here may be talking about the system and the other is debating him thinking in terms of a specific organization.
> peoples point of view on kenpo often depends on whether your an "insider" or an "outsider"  i happen to be both. i am a 3rd degree black belt in the system and taught for many years and gave it up to study things that met my needs better.  i also used to make it a habit to visit many schools and many styles in many states.
> i can honestly say this with no malice intended and no typical attitude about how my style is better than yours...but i will say,   in my experience kenpo deserves the reputation it has.  like i said how this came to be, is subject for another thread but you have made your bed now lie in it.  you may argue against me but i have been there done that got the t-shirt and the belt ranking and from the outsiders perspective i look at a kenpo school and what goes on there and i just shake my head and think to myself "boy am i gald i am not there anymore".
> at this point i am pretty much done with this thread because i feel to keep going is just whinning and going round in circles.  like it or not the reputation is yours not mine and so now the issue is what are you going to do moving forward.  what are you going to do about it? because arguing here is not going to change anything.
> Frank Sinatra said ; the best revenge is massive success.. so go be the best you can be and make the best students, prove the world wrong rather than trying to prove me wrong here on a web sight.



There's some really good comments there. There's also a lot I disagree with. Like with any style you can find great dojos, good dojos, weak dojos and really bad dojos. The first Kenpo dojo I ever walked into was George Pesares in Rhode Island. It was forty years ago but to this day it's the nastiest blood and guts gym I've been in, and I've been in a lot of them.

Me thinks you paint with too broad a brush. Kind of pisses me off.


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## hoshin1600

Buka,  if my comments piss you off, thats fine as long as it pisses enough people off to say to themselves that they are not going to stand for sub par dojo and organizations anymore that pull them down and represent the style poorly.  like i said we have to compare apples to apples. and i have been to lots of sucky dojo that were suposed to be traditional styles.  and you are right many of the traditional karate seniors i know knew George and speek well of him. (in one instance, it was a group dinner out and Joe Lewis was was there and if i remember correctly he spoke well of George as well)   but if was very good (which i am sure he was) he is an exception to what came to be known as kenpo/kempo in general.  one bad apple ruins the batch,, ONE ON EVERY CORNER MAKES IT WORSE.  also like i said its not really my problem anymore i am just stating what is the generaly accepted view of outsiders, so get pissed off, the more the better and get everyone you know pissed off and aim your anger at the ones who are hurting the systems reputation .   .  denounce them tell the world that what they do iS not true kenpo.  stop making up titles like 12 degree black belts, professors, super duper grand pubar master. stop lieing about the sytems or the organizations history. shut them down pull their franchises whatever.  be on a board of directors that set the standards.  BE THE BEST YOU CAN BE AND MAKE THE BEST STUDENTS YOU CAN.


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## Buka

hoshin1600 said:


> Buka,  if my comments piss you off, thats fine as long as it pisses enough people off to say to themselves that they are not going to stand for sub par dojo and organizations anymore that pull them down and represent the style poorly.  like i said we have to compare apples to apples. and i have been to lots of sucky dojo that were suposed to be traditional styles.  and you are right many of the traditional karate seniors i know knew George and speek well of him. (in one instance, it was a group dinner out and Joe Lewis was was there and if i remember correctly he spoke well of George as well)   but if was very good (which i am sure he was) he is an exception to what came to be known as kenpo/kempo in general.  one bad apple ruins the batch,, ONE ON EVERY CORNER MAKES IT WORSE.  also like i said its not really my problem anymore i am just stating what is the generaly accepted view of outsiders, so get pissed off, the more the better and get everyone you know pissed off and aim your anger at the ones who are hurting the systems reputation .   .  denounce them tell the world that what they do iS not true kenpo.  stop making up titles like 12 degree black belts, professors, super duper grand pubar master. stop lieing about the sytems or the organizations history. shut them down pull their franchises whatever.  be on a board of directors that set the standards.  BE THE BEST YOU CAN BE AND MAKE THE BEST STUDENTS YOU CAN.



 It's all good, brother, I love and appreciate your passion. I put that smiley face there because I was smiling when I read your reply. (Thanks for replying, BTW)

The Kenpo guys I know are the same Kenpo guys I've known forever. They still train and teach the same way. Which I know is a small sample size. So....what's going on in the Kenpo world that you speak off? Is it young instructors opening dojos? Is it lack of passion? (no passion in a dojo, to me, is a waste of a dojo) Is it because of business? Watered down? I'm really curious about all of this.

I know who you are referring to with the "12th degree" term. To me, he's the worst scourge to hit Martial Arts in my lifetime. His old "World Headquarters" is a couple miles from where I'm sitting right now. We never actually considered him or his organization real Martial Arts, but I still have a palatable hate for all things Fred.

BTW, I fist met and started training with Joe at George's back in 72. George was not a warm, fuzzy guy, but he sure could teach fighting. Twenty years later Joe would stay at my house when he was in town for seminars and such. (I'm the luckiest guy I know.)

So.....what's up with the Kenpo world? Is all you said pretty much accepted? Is it a regional thing? Everywhere? Other countries? And when did all this start happening? I don't mean to be a pain in the *** with all these questions, but I'm interested. Kenpo guys and Kenpo schools always helped me.


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## hoshin1600

like you said " i was painting with a very broad brush"  but that was on purpose.  forum rules state you cant bash people and organizations. so i was trying to be general to keep my post from being deleted or myself from being banned.  with that in mind it is very difficult to talk about this subject.  ill think about what i want to say publicly and maybe send you a PM later.


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## tshadowchaser

I know this thread has gone on for 5 pages now and I admit to not reading every post but may I ask which Kenpo we are discussing as there are many organizations with Kenpo in the name:


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## hoshin1600

I will post some of my thoughts and observations on thekenpo/kempo I have seen and experienced.
I want to start with the system itself.  Kenpo has what I would call a segmented architecture.  Ed Parker said take what is useful and discard the rest.   So the kenpo system is made up of pieces that chow and Parker thought were useful.  
If you took a house and made an addition then built on a garage then bumped out the back for extra space in the kitchen then added on an extra dormer upstairs  ect .  The house is an example of segmented architecture.  It will work but it would have been better to design it with all those amenities from the start.  Any good cook will tell you the design of the kitchen makes all the difference.  It makes it easier to do the job. Pots and pans, utensils and a water source all have to be in a proper relationship to the stove. You can cook without a good design but it works against you.
The same holds true for the kenpo system.  This segmentation has its positive and negative effects.  On the positive side it allows pieces and ideas to be pulled into the system and other parts to be deleted in order to better fit the individual.  On the negative side it does make it more difficult to make an effective art and it takes longer to learn.  Its a trade off.  The problem arises when there is a lack of a strong organization or leader to control and advice on changes.  Kenpo has so many branches that there is no one single governing body.  As these branches get farther from the roots the body of knowledge gets thinner and thinner.   Many individuals take it upon themselves to pull in ideas and martial technique and this creates even more segmentation.  Most often the parts do not fit together o rwork together very well.   A good example of a style with segmented architecture is JKD.  the difference here is that they are a small group of seniors that worked with Bruce and they are able to define what is and what is not JKD,  who is and who is not representing the style accurately. There  maybe a loose interpretation of what JKD is. Like Jazz music you know it when you hear it but you know its not punk rock or rap.
At this point the next generation has more to learn, more, more,and more.  The body of knowledge is so large that it is impossible to really get a handle on it. Newer students spend more time and energy learning the next kata and the next technique and never really learn and understand any of it. There is no mastery of anything..Just the next thing on the list.  Proficiency has come to be defined by how much you know rather than how well you can apply it.  
Too much choice is not better.  There have been studies done on this subject,they found that at the grocery store if there are 4 choices of salad dressing people pick the one they want and move on. But are more choice really better?  They then put in a selection of over 50 types of salad dressing and what happed is that people got overwhelmed. After standing there not knowing what to do they would end up not buying anything.
In a self defense situation the LEO knows exactly what to do.  Draw his firearm.  This is his go to defense.  If he was overwhelmed by choices of things to pick from he would end up dead very quickly. In martial arts every practitioner has a tool box to pick from.  In moments of stress you need to be able to fall back on the tool that will and can pull you out of a bind, you know it well and can trust it because experience tells you it has worked many times before.  This go to tool does not have the time to develop for the kenpo student who is always focused on what the next thing is.

This leads me to the overkill . Combinations of strikes and kicks that go on and on and on.   The reality is that 3 actions are probably the most you will ever get off in a combat situation.  There is a tendency to string together actions with little to no regard to the fact that youre dealing with a living and breathing and fighting person.  
The technique of palm block, elbow, hammer fist, back fist,uppercut, tiger claws up, tiger claws down, groin strike, grab, knee kick for a takedown, arm brake, heel kick, eye pokes, front kick, heel kick to the groin.just aint gonna happen.  
The tendency is for unknowledgeable instructor to string together actions based on how they work together mechanically for the striker not how they fit together in the context of the interaction between attacker and defender.  The bad guy is all but forgotten.  In combat you are not dealing with two objects (person 1 and person 2) rather you are dealing with one action..A fight.  The entire art of fighting is based on the interplay between the two objects that create one action.


----------



## Hand Sword

Whoa. Sounds like you need to take up MMA


----------



## hoshin1600

MMA is another good example of a segemented achitecture.  MMA works because it really has only 2 segments stand up usually in the form of Thai boxing and ground work usually in the form if BJJ.  you can pull in other pieces like the dynamics of western boxing punching but it is very limited.  but to go back to my kitchen anology this is like adding a microwave. you can do that without disrupting the overall system to much. its more of a assimilation then an add on.  also in MMA there is a focus on one objective, beating your opponent.  so you dont get the mental masturbation falacy stuff because at some point you have to prove it out.  proving stuff and working out the wrinkles is not an option in other non-contact  non-sport systems.


----------



## Touch Of Death

hoshin1600 said:


> I will post some of my thoughts and observations on thekenpo/kempo I have seen and experienced.
> I want to start with the system itself.  Kenpo has what I would call a segmented architecture.  Ed Parker said take what is useful and discard the rest.   So the kenpo system is made up of pieces that chow and Parker thought were useful.
> If you took a house and made an addition then built on a garage then bumped out the back for extra space in the kitchen then added on an extra dormer upstairs  ect .  The house is an example of segmented architecture.  It will work but it would have been better to design it with all those amenities from the start.  Any good cook will tell you the design of the kitchen makes all the difference.  It makes it easier to do the job. Pots and pans, utensils and a water source all have to be in a proper relationship to the stove. You can cook without a good design but it works against you.
> The same holds true for the kenpo system.  This segmentation has its positive and negative effects.  On the positive side it allows pieces and ideas to be pulled into the system and other parts to be deleted in order to better fit the individual.  On the negative side it does make it more difficult to make an effective art and it takes longer to learn.  It&#8217;s a trade off.  The problem arises when there is a lack of a strong organization or leader to control and advice on changes.  Kenpo has so many branches that there is no one single governing body.  As these branches get farther from the roots the body of knowledge gets thinner and thinner.   Many individuals take it upon themselves to pull in ideas and martial technique and this creates even more segmentation.  Most often the parts do not fit together o rwork together very well.   A good example of a style with segmented architecture is JKD.  the difference here is that they are a small group of seniors that worked with Bruce and they are able to define what is and what is not JKD,  who is and who is not representing the style accurately. There  maybe a loose interpretation of what JKD is. Like Jazz music you know it when you hear it but you know its not punk rock or rap.
> At this point the next generation has more to learn, more, more,and more.  The body of knowledge is so large that it is impossible to really get a handle on it. Newer students spend more time and energy learning the &#8220;next kata&#8221; and the &#8220;next technique&#8221; and never really learn and understand any of it. There is no mastery of anything..Just the &#8220;next &#8220;thing on the list.  Proficiency has come to be defined by how much you know rather than how well you can apply it.
> Too much choice is not better.  There have been studies done on this subject,they found that at the grocery store if there are 4 choices of salad dressing people pick the one they want and move on. But are more choice really better?  They then put in a selection of over 50 types of salad dressing and what happed is that people got overwhelmed. After standing there not knowing what to do they would end up not buying anything.
> In a self defense situation the LEO knows exactly what to do.  Draw his firearm.  This is his &#8220;go to&#8221; defense.  If he was overwhelmed by choices of things to pick from he would end up dead very quickly. In martial arts every practitioner has a tool box to pick from.  In moments of stress you need to be able to fall back on the tool that will and can pull you out of a bind, you know it well and can trust it because experience tells you it has worked many times before.  This &#8220;go to&#8221; tool does not have the time to develop for the kenpo student who is always focused on what the next thing is.
> 
> This leads me to the &#8220;overkill&#8221; . Combinations of strikes and kicks that go on and on and on.   The reality is that 3 actions are probably the most you will ever get off in a combat situation.  There is a tendency to string together actions with little to no regard to the fact that you&#8217;re dealing with a living and breathing and fighting person.
> The technique of palm block, elbow, hammer fist, back fist,uppercut, tiger claws up, tiger claws down, groin strike, grab, knee kick for a takedown, arm brake, heel kick, eye pokes, front kick, heel kick to the groin&#8230;.just aint gonna happen.
> The tendency is for unknowledgeable instructor to string together actions based on how they work together mechanically for the striker not how they fit together in the context of the interaction between attacker and defender.  The bad guy is all but forgotten.  In combat you are not dealing with two objects (person 1 and person 2) rather you are dealing with one action..A fight.  The entire art of fighting is based on the interplay between the two objects that create one action.


What if there was no overkill in kenpo, and they were just doing a 1,2,3 technique, over and over, because that is how they trained? If the practitioner is making moves that aren't going to help him, over all, he is just some guy with bad timing.


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## hoshin1600

touch of death, i want to respond to your post but i am not sure i am understanding your point clearly. from my reading it seems like you are touching on a few different things. can you explain a little more for me?


> What if there was no overkill in kenpo, and they were just doing a 1,2,3 technique, over and over,


doing the same action over and over is the best training for combat.  in the military you train to reload your weapon under the stress of combat.  you should be able to do this without looking and without having to think about it so the action gets ingrained or "hard wired" into your brain.  actions need to become a reflex and the only way to achive this result is thru repitition.  boxers must do thousands of reps of lead jab, right cross, left hook. 


> If the practitioner is making moves that aren't going to help him


this gets into something i didnt bring up yet about assumptions.  in combat poor assumptions will get you killed and most assumptions are poor.  


> he is just some guy with bad timing.


timing is a vital component in fighting. it is a complex issue. the three basic components of an action are speed, power and timing.  there are multiple facets of timing, im not sure what your trying to say here.


----------



## Touch Of Death

hoshin1600 said:


> touch of death, i want to respond to your post but i am not sure i am understanding your point clearly. from my reading it seems like you are touching on a few different things. can you explain a little more for me?
> 
> doing the same action over and over is the best training for combat.  in the military you train to reload your weapon under the stress of combat.  you should be able to do this without looking and without having to think about it so the action gets ingrained or "hard wired" into your brain.  actions need to become a reflex and the only way to achive this result is thru repitition.  boxers must do thousands of reps of lead jab, right cross, left hook.
> 
> this gets into something i didnt bring up yet about assumptions.  in combat poor assumptions will get you killed and most assumptions are poor.
> 
> timing is a vital component in fighting. it is a complex issue. the three basic components of an action are speed, power and timing.  there are multiple facets of timing, im not sure what your trying to say here.


I mean either he doesn't understand the objective, or he has a poor objective.


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## drop bear

hoshin1600 said:


> MMA is another good example of a segemented achitecture.  MMA works because it really has only 2 segments stand up usually in the form of Thai boxing and ground work usually in the form if BJJ.  you can pull in other pieces like the dynamics of western boxing punching but it is very limited.  but to go back to my kitchen anology this is like adding a microwave. you can do that without disrupting the overall system to much. its more of a assimilation then an add on.  also in MMA there is a focus on one objective, beating your opponent.  so you dont get the mental masturbation falacy stuff because at some point you have to prove it out.  proving stuff and working out the wrinkles is not an option in other non-contact  non-sport systems.




No MMA suffers exactly from that. The strategies that work for striking do not work for grappling. Mechanically. 

The capacity to switch from one style to another is greater than people think.

So you could combine Thai and wrestling to do MMA you are doing three styles.


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## tshadowchaser

Some people are forgetting that traditional martial arts where used in war and in personal combat where NO rules applied. Just because some of the eye gouging and testicle removal has been eliminated from tournaments and some "family" training dose not mean it is not in the art.
Remember students of those traditional arts many times used to prove there study every night as they walked home from class or in the local bar at night, and I'll tell you from experience they did not go tot he ground and grapple and look for submissions.


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## Buka

hoshin1600 said:


> it is often the case  that the top student sets the standard and the pace for all other students to live up to. you would think its the sensei but its not, its the sempai.



I don't mean to take any comments out of context, but I think this is brilliant. I had never thought of it before.


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## Ironbear24

Kenpo is good for Street fighting. I have done it a few times. Of course it was against my will. 

Kenpo is good for sport. In my opinion heavy contact sparring is the best kenpo as you fight actually talented martial artists rather than dumb *** thugs.

Kenpo is great for weight loss. I weighed 230 at 16 years old and dropped to 150 with kenpo. Later I started bulking with weight lifting and eating well and am now 207. 

Kenpo is great for social skills. Nothing says new friendship like hitting eachother in the head over and over again. Or taking eachother to the floor and getting into akward *** to face positions. 

Kenpo teaches humility as there will come those times where you think you are all that, only to be beaten up by somebody twice your age and is much smaller than you. 

Kenpo teaches gender equality, woman are just as likely to beat you up than a guy is. Plus women fight evil and stomp your feet and hit your groin while the guys seem to not do that so much. Kenpo has taught me that women are very hard core.

Kenpo teaches diligence and discipline, you get nothing out of it unless you are willing to sweat and bleed and ache for it. It teaches patience, you will only become better if you practice a lot.

Kenpo teaches that to improve as a fighter you must not only practice what you already know, but expand your knowledge by learning from other martial arts as well. This is so you can learn how to defeat it and learn how to use it yourself if necessary.


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## Touch Of Death

hoshin1600 said:


> touch of death, i want to respond to your post but i am not sure i am understanding your point clearly. from my reading it seems like you are touching on a few different things. can you explain a little more for me?
> 
> doing the same action over and over is the best training for combat.  in the military you train to reload your weapon under the stress of combat.  you should be able to do this without looking and without having to think about it so the action gets ingrained or "hard wired" into your brain.  actions need to become a reflex and the only way to achive this result is thru repitition.  boxers must do thousands of reps of lead jab, right cross, left hook.
> 
> this gets into something i didnt bring up yet about assumptions.  in combat poor assumptions will get you killed and most assumptions are poor.
> 
> timing is a vital component in fighting. it is a complex issue. the three basic components of an action are speed, power and timing.  there are multiple facets of timing, im not sure what your trying to say here.


Timing is everything. It is anything and everything that can happen on a timeline. They even put cooking times, on our food products, to improve our timing.


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## hoshin1600

Wow are we going to revive this thread after 2 years? Lol


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## Touch Of Death

hoshin1600 said:


> Wow are we going to revive this thread after 2 years? Lol


Yeah. I just read it and got excited, all over again.


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## MaxRob

hongkongfooey said:


> Danjo,
> 
> Don't get me wrong. The self defense aspect of Kenpo is very important to me. I do believe that the system is effective. People need to realize that Kenpo is a contact activity. The techniques will work if the proper amount of force is applied. If someone is not being hit or hitting their training partners, they're kidding themselves. I am not advocating beating each other senseless, but, I have seen classes where advanced belts literally whined if they received a little bit of contact. How are these people gonna defend themselves if they can't take a  shot in a sterile environment like the classroom?
> 
> Sadly, there are many Kenpo schools like that out there. We really are becoming the next McDojo system. I have been in schools that only worked in the air, not on a live body. Schools that professed to generate their chi into strikes that would totally incapacitate their opponet. I have been in Kenpo schools that didn't even teach a form of Kenpo of any kind.
> I have been in Parker system schools that would make Ed Parker roll over in his grave. Slappy, fast movements, but no stances or power in the strikes. Why is everyone so concerned with speed above everything else?
> 
> 
> I don't believe that Kenpo is outdated. It just needs to trained right.
> This is my second time around in Kenpo. My first school's teacher was a good martial artist, he just didn't want to teach. But, he did want the money, though. There are a lot of teachers like that out there.
> 
> Dave


----------



## MaxRob

hongkongfooey said:


> Danjo,
> 
> Don't get me wrong. The self defense aspect of Kenpo is very important to me. I do believe that the system is effective. People need to realize that Kenpo is a contact activity. The techniques will work if the proper amount of force is applied. If someone is not being hit or hitting their training partners, they're kidding themselves. I am not advocating beating each other senseless, but, I have seen classes where advanced belts literally whined if they received a little bit of contact. How are these people gonna defend themselves if they can't take a  shot in a sterile environment like the classroom?
> 
> Sadly, there are many Kenpo schools like that out there. We really are becoming the next McDojo system. I have been in schools that only worked in the air, not on a live body. Schools that professed to generate their chi into strikes that would totally incapacitate their opponet. I have been in Kenpo schools that didn't even teach a form of Kenpo of any kind.
> I have been in Parker system schools that would make Ed Parker roll over in his grave. Slappy, fast movements, but no stances or power in the strikes. Why is everyone so concerned with speed above everything else?
> 
> 
> I don't believe that Kenpo is outdated. It just needs to trained right.
> This is my second time around in Kenpo. My first school's teacher was a good martial artist, he just didn't want to teach. But, he did want the money, though. There are a lot of teachers like that out there.
> 
> Dave


I agree , in this sense several


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## MaxRob

Kenpo or kempokarate is  v effective as self defense and it has my greatest respect.
With Sakhui Yohida, to James Mitose to William Chow and to Ed Parker
This art is amazing it is varied but  very effective.
Also as Go-Shinjutsu ( ( law of the fist and art of of self defense)  Chow; later Ed Parker ,Law of the fist and empty hand.)
It has over 700 distinct self defense tequniques
Every body part is a weapon in kenpokarate, every tequniques has variations and every varied technique is a weapon .
It is better to master 100 techniques 100 times than master one 1000 times.
kenpo is a a great art , teaches so much.
I agree to above if not taught in its highy effective  form but in today s world where even he slightest contact can be disciplinary or even a legal issue many of our Self Defence Arts can be restricted.
Kenpo is one of the most interesting, and effective self defence arts, it is v difficult to master all it's moves, it is a base to other martial arts and I as a student respect it absolutely.


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## Touch Of Death

MaxRob said:


> Kenpo or kempokarate is  v effective as self defense and it has my greatest respect.
> With Sakhui Yohida, to James Mitose to William Chow and to Ed Parker
> This art is amazing it is varied but  very effective.
> Also as Go-Shinjutsu ( ( law of the fist and art of of self defense)  Chow; later Ed Parker ,Law of the fist and empty hand.)
> It has over 700 distinct self defense tequniques
> Every body part is a weapon in kenpokarate, every tequniques has variations and every varied technique is a weapon .
> It is better to master 100 techniques 100 times than master one 1000 times.
> kenpo is a a great art , teaches so much.
> I agree to above if not taught in its highy effective  form but in today s world where even he slightest contact can be disciplinary or even a legal issue many of our Self Defence Arts can be restricted.
> Kenpo is one of the most interesting, and effective self defence arts, it is v difficult to master all it's moves, it is a base to other martial arts and I as a student respect it absolutely.


Kenpo can be a zillion techs, or those zillion techs can be variations on about five or six ideas. It is much easier to learn if you categorize these techs into broader more generalized principles.


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## MaxRob

I agree absolutely


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## MaxRob

The issues are v situational . Thanks so much


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## BUCKNAKEDBULLFROG

jorgemp said:


> Kenpo has its own kicks (for example, ushiro geri keage). But explosive, high kicks usually  aren´t as practiced by  kenpoists as by taekwondists.
> 
> I can´t imagine Joe Palanzo kicking as proficiently as Suska:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But surely Suska´s uchi waza combinations are nos as speed as those of Larry Tatum:


Excellent videos.


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## KenpoMaster805

well i studied kenpo karate and kenpo karate is an updated system based on modern day street fighting it applies logic and PRacticality Kenpo s very effective on the street  and the technniques are idea not rules which can change depending upon circumstances who ever say that kenpo aint effective they wrong


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## hoshin1600

I guess this thread will never die,, kinda like a zombie.  


KenpoMaster805 said:


> well i studied kenpo karate and kenpo karate is an updated system based on modern day street fighting it applies logic and PRacticality Kenpo s very effective on the street  and the technniques are idea not rules which can change depending upon circumstances who ever say that kenpo aint effective they wrong


I dont mind the system as much as I do the BS rhetoric and constant regurgitation of the same quotes over and over, ,,"it's modern"  "it's scientific "  "it's based on the western way of fighting "...  
All kenpo is ,is a rehashed Frankenstein version of traditional Asian arts.  There is nothing in kenpo you would not find in the various traditional martial arts that inspired kenpo.  
There is nothing inherently wrong with a mix of different arts.  But there is also nothing special or ingenious about kenpo.  Kenpo is like a potato,  kinda bland tasting but will fill your stomach if your hungry.


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## Touch Of Death

hoshin1600 said:


> I guess this thread will never die,, kinda like a zombie.
> 
> I dont mind the system as much as I do the BS rhetoric and constant regurgitation of the same quotes over and over, ,,"it's modern"  "it's scientific "  "it's based on the western way of fighting "...
> All kenpo is ,is a rehashed Frankenstein version of traditional Asian arts.  There is nothing in kenpo you would not find in the various traditional martial arts that inspired kenpo.
> There is nothing inherently wrong with a mix of different arts.  But there is also nothing special or ingenious about kenpo.  Kenpo is like a potato,  kinda bland tasting but will fill your stomach if your hungry.


Don't forget, Deadly Killing Art. That's the milkshake that bring the boys to the yard.


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## Tames D

hoshin1600 said:


> I guess this thread will never die,, kinda like a zombie.
> 
> I dont mind the system as much as I do the BS rhetoric and constant regurgitation of the same quotes over and over, ,,"it's modern"  "it's scientific "  "it's based on the western way of fighting "...
> All kenpo is ,is a rehashed Frankenstein version of traditional Asian arts.  There is nothing in kenpo you would not find in the various traditional martial arts that inspired kenpo.
> There is nothing inherently wrong with a mix of different arts.  But there is also nothing special or ingenious about kenpo.  Kenpo is like a potato,  kinda bland tasting but will fill your stomach if your hungry.


Careful... a good Kenpo guy will slap you silly


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## Touch Of Death

hoshin1600 said:


> I guess this thread will never die,, kinda like a zombie.
> 
> I dont mind the system as much as I do the BS rhetoric and constant regurgitation of the same quotes over and over, ,,"it's modern"  "it's scientific "  "it's based on the western way of fighting "...
> All kenpo is ,is a rehashed Frankenstein version of traditional Asian arts.  There is nothing in kenpo you would not find in the various traditional martial arts that inspired kenpo.
> There is nothing inherently wrong with a mix of different arts.  But there is also nothing special or ingenious about kenpo.  Kenpo is like a potato,  kinda bland tasting but will fill your stomach if your hungry.


At a second reading, you have a flawed premise, nothing gets added that doesn't fit, in the timing mechanism you know as kenpo; so, it isn't exactly a Frankenstein. Other people, and so called masters have added some crazy stuff, but not the art, proper.


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## Charlemagne

hongkongfooey said:


> I think that most people are too hung up on the fighting part of MA's.



Seriously?  They are called "martial" arts for a reason.  They are intended for fighting, or at least they were at some point.  It isn't aerobics or ballet, nor or it a social club, and it wasn't intended to be.  Is there as social aspect?  Of course, and this can be a very good thing.  Is there a fitness component?  Not as often as their should be, but yes, and this is good as well.  In addition, martial artists certainly should not go around looking for fights, but the preparation for a fight one cannot realistically avoid should be the driving aspect.  Some people have been training for so long, or have bought into the hype of "fighting without fighting" (or whatever way they use to say the same thing), that they forget why the majority of people walk through the door to start training in the first place. 

As for the rest of the thread, I've never trained Kenpo, so I cannot weigh in on the utility of the system, but I have trained enough different systems and been exposed to more, that what I can say is that some arts are effective at their original intent and some are not.   Some may have been at one point but have gotten away from that through the years.  Some arts could have utility, but the manner in which they are trained is not conducive to getting that result.  With respect to Kenpo, I don't recall too many schools being marketed as a social club or merely as a place for personal growth.  In the cases I can recall, they were marketed as a place to learn realistic self-defense skills.  

Again, not having trained Kenpo, I suspect there are some who are training so that they can actually fight if they have to and some who are not.  Those who are, are still seeing the social benefits and the aspects of personal growth and development, as those who are not training in the same way.  These things are not mutually exclusive.  But, they can also fight, which, in all probability, was the intent of the system in the first place.


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## hoshin1600

Tames D said:


> Careful... a good Kenpo guy will slap you......................... silly


i could always use a good laugh.

but seriously....
i find many things in kenpo that just are not for me.  if others like the system great,  but what i find interesting is the very reason i left kenpo was because to my eyes its methodologies did not match the science and logic of actual fighting but yet this is the rally cry and cheer i hear from kenpo guys on why kenpo is so great.
i often hear "well it depends on your instructor and the lineage"  "our kenpo is not like those _other_ systems of kenpo"  but i see common traits that run though every version of the style.  even the masters of kenpo exhibit these traits.  to give the most common is the "dance of death"   the endless combination of strikes and kicks to a non moving non responsive attacker.    some may try to defend it and reason it out, they will find an argument in its favor.  but it doesnt adhere to logic or fight science.

i will admit i have seen some youtube clips of kenpo that shows that kenpo has repurposed and reinvented itself and now looks like MMA.  but if a style has abandoned its training methodologies and adopted the training of MMA then it makes it rather difficult to argue its still kenpo.  it certainly would not be the art of Chow. Parker or Castro.


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## Touch Of Death

hoshin1600 said:


> i could always use a good laugh.
> 
> but seriously....
> i find many things in kenpo that just are not for me.  if others like the system great,  but what i find interesting is the very reason i left kenpo was because to my eyes its methodologies did not match the science and logic of actual fighting but yet this is the rally cry and cheer i hear from kenpo guys on why kenpo is so great.
> i often hear "well it depends on your instructor and the lineage"  "our kenpo is not like those _other_ systems of kenpo"  but i see common traits that run though every version of the style.  even the masters of kenpo exhibit these traits.  to give the most common is the "dance of death"   the endless combination of strikes and kicks to a non moving non responsive attacker.    some may try to defend it and reason it out, they will find an argument in its favor.  but it doesnt adhere to logic or fight science.
> 
> i will admit i have seen some youtube clips of kenpo that shows that kenpo has repurposed and reinvented itself and now looks like MMA.  but if a style has abandoned its training methodologies and adopted the training of MMA then it makes it rather difficult to argue its still kenpo.  it certainly would not be the art of Chow. Parker or Castro.


Oh yeah, Parker would have sucked if people didn't accidently walk into his strikes.


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## hoshin1600

Touch Of Death said:


> Oh yeah, Parker would have sucked if people didn't accidently walk into his strikes.


not sure if that is sarcasm.


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## Flying Crane

Touch Of Death said:


> At a second reading, you have a flawed premise, nothing gets added that doesn't fit, in the timing mechanism you know as kenpo; so, it isn't exactly a Frankenstein. Other people, and so called masters have added some crazy stuff, but not the art, proper.


The art itself cannot do anything.  The art itself cannot choose to add something.

I have seen some things added by some people, into their specific kenpo lineage, that absolutely does not fit and is inappropriate.  I can't speak for all lineages, I only know what I experienced.


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## Flying Crane

hoshin1600 said:


> i could always use a good laugh.
> 
> but seriously....
> i find many things in kenpo that just are not for me.  if others like the system great,  but what i find interesting is the very reason i left kenpo was because to my eyes its methodologies did not match the science and logic of actual fighting but yet this is the rally cry and cheer i hear from kenpo guys on why kenpo is so great.
> i often hear "well it depends on your instructor and the lineage"  "our kenpo is not like those _other_ systems of kenpo"  but i see common traits that run though every version of the style.  even the masters of kenpo exhibit these traits.  to give the most common is the "dance of death"   the endless combination of strikes and kicks to a non moving non responsive attacker.    some may try to defend it and reason it out, they will find an argument in its favor.  but it doesnt adhere to logic or fight science.
> 
> i will admit i have seen some youtube clips of kenpo that shows that kenpo has repurposed and reinvented itself and now looks like MMA.  but if a style has abandoned its training methodologies and adopted the training of MMA then it makes it rather difficult to argue its still kenpo.  it certainly would not be the art of Chow. Parker or Castro.


I have similar feelings, having trained in the Tracy lineage.  May I ask in which lineage did you train?


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