# Tai Chi and Grappling Defense



## BooBoo (May 18, 2014)

Hi everyone,

I don't post much, but I thought I'd share my ideas on Tai Chi as it relates to defensive abilities and get some insight from others on this forum.

I was recently on vacation with my in-laws and I was showing one of my wife's brothers the basics of Tai Chi and Tui Shou exercises, and I explained to him that Tui Shou practice develops your sensitivity and helps you understand your center of gravity and your opponent's center of gravity.

Her other brother overheard us. He had previously (almost) attained a black belt in Judo.  So he butts in and tells me that he can make me lose my center of gravity.  So I told him ok, go ahead.  So he kept trying to trip me and take me down and he had no luck whatsoever.

All throughout I was very relaxed and followed the advise of my Sifu.  My Sifu told us when you fight stay completely relaxed and you might as well pretend that you already lost the fight so that you don't tense up by pressuring yourself to win.  All throughout this experience I wasn't even thinking about him trying to trip me, I just found that I had a natural sense of maintaining my balance and being able to adapt.

So then I realized that Tai Chi has a remarkable sort of ability to develop one's capability to adapt to different situations.  I mean in class we tend to practice Tui Shou and some grappling, however, we also spend considerable time doing forms and stance training (which other martial artists might consider a waste of time), which ultimately means that compared to a typical Judo class or BJJ class we do far less 'practical' implementation, yet I was able to hold my own against someone who practiced take downs and tripping extensively.  

The latter also affirmed a couple more things to me.  First, it makes sense why my Sifu doesn't teach us too many 'specific' offensive moves (he might teach us like 3 or 4 specific offensive moves in a year, for example locks and submissions).  It seems that, again, the training seems geared towards making you understand how to act rather than spoon feeding you specific moves.  Am I right in my understanding?  I believe this is one reason that some students of Tai Chi get frustrated and quit early but I also believe that the potential rewards are huge if you do develop this natural instinct and adaptability.

Subsequently I had a discussion with my Sifu about this incident.  I explained to him that although in class we do far less 'practical' work than a typical Judo class or BJJ class, I felt very comfortable maintaining my balance and defending against a take down.  So, I told him, that I believe that I underestimated Tai Chi's abilities and that I believe that this is the reason that you teach us somewhat 'slowly' because you want to see what kind of people we are.  He sort of smiled and said that in China some teachers who think they have a bad natured student might simply pretend to teach him without giving him any serious techniques.

Mind you I've been with my Sifu for 8 years but because of serious work and study commitments I would often stop practice for long periods of time.  It is only in the past year that I feel that I've began improving slowly, although I still consider myself a beginner!

Moving on, I discussed this issue with a friend who practices BJJ.  He believes that a BJJ martial artist can *always *take down a Tai Chi martial artist because a BJJ guy specializes in take downs.  He tried out some moves on me, and I must admit that some of their moves are terrifying if you don't naturally defend and adapt to them.  Although we couldn't actually try a proper grappling session because he injured his knee, but he believes that my brother in law was taking it easy on me.  *However, I strongly feel that at certain levels of Tai Chi practice, one would be able to develop natural balance maintenance capabilities and a natural sense of defensive adaptation when faced with someone like a BJJ martial artist who is specialized in take downs and who is intent on taking you down.
*
Am I right in my understanding of Tai Chi's teaching methods and that it ultimately seeks to teach a sort of natural defensive capability?  Has anyone had experience being in the scary position of being almost submitted by a BJJ guy?  Did you find that you were able to adapt to the latter?  Any thoughts or experiences would be appreciated.  Thank you all.


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## zzj (May 18, 2014)

I'm not quite qualified to comment from the Tai Chi perspective as I've less than 1 year's training so far, but I do have 5 years of Judo experience in my teen years. Judo shares a lot of the same philosophy in terms of not meeting force with force and using your opponent's strength / momentum against him, however, my experience in Judo is that it is every much technique oriented, muscular strength is still more a factor than sensitivity. Even though I have little Tai Chi experience to date, I would suspect that Tai Chi's advantage is in its ability to root and relax to a level whereby a judoka would not be able to get the feedback and response to effectively execute his techniques, that much would be a game changer. I often wonder if my Judo would have been drastically better if I had Tai Chi as my base art.

BJJ is a different problem all together, while in Judo there was still the assumption that remaining on your feet was better than going to the ground (therefore, throwing your opponent was still the primary goal), BJJ aims only to take the game to the ground, and this I feel is a completely different paradigm. In olden times, fighting mostly occurred on the battlefield, against bandits, highwaymen and among belligerent groups. In such situations, going to the ground would be suicidal (a worst case scenario) as you often had other combatants around you; almost all traditional arts trained to be stable and mobile, thus the only people who tried to take you to the ground would be the untrained. BJJ turned this paradigm on its head by forcing this 'worst case scenario' and training to take the fight to the ground exclusively. Traditional arts, including tai chi, are ill-prepared to respond to this.

Tai chi would still have a comparative advantage against a BJJ practitioner, but it is not absolute... persistence on BJJ's part would probably force the tai chi guy onto the ground eventually. In a controlled, non-lethal environment such as MMA or consensual sparring, where is not a lot that can be done; the only real solution I feel is for traditional martial arts to train specifically to deal with BJJ. Realistically, the best thing that can be done is to finish the fight as soon as possible while standing up, or anticipate and counter takedowns decisively... of course, this applies more to real life situations as many of the effective techniques cannot, and shouldn't be applied in a controlled match.


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## BooBoo (May 19, 2014)

Yes BJJ is a problem, especially the sense of panic that overtakes you when you feel yourself falling or getting trapped in a lock.  Having said that, and I might be wrong which is why I started this thread - I don't view Tai Chi as a rigid traditional system.  Often, you'll hear people criticize traditional martial arts claiming that they're not capable of adapting to different situations because of this rigidity.  Here is where I feel Tai Chi is different.  I view Tai Chi as more of a principles based martial arts, and one who has attained a sufficient level of Tai Chi proficiency should be able to use these principles in different situations.

For example, I've had a few sparring sessions with friends who practice BJJ over the past few years.  In the beginning I would normally feel utterly helpless.  As my rooting, sensitivity and balance improved, I find myself being much better able to adapt and maintain my balance and stance.  The remarkable thing about the latter is that this improvement was achieved without practicing specific technique application to the same extent as my BJJ friends.  Rather, this improvement was based, in my opinion, more on me focusing more on the stance training (Santi Shi and Zhan Zhuang), correct and relaxed form execution, more training in Xingyi forms, and some Tui Shou practice.  

At my level, which is not very advanced, I would agree with you that in a controlled setting I am not too confident of being able to hold out for long against a strong BJJ opponent.  That's at my level though.  My Sifu is a different matter.  The guy is like a tree planted on the ground.  And even if you get him to fall he's not entirely helpless on the ground, since the principles of Tui Shou and Tai Chi can be applied in these settings.  My Sifu once advised me to spar with people of different martial arts to develop my own abilities and learn to adapt.  I think he said that knowing that Tai Chi has the ability to allow one to adapt and grow.  Although he hasn't mentioned it explicitly, which is why I started this thread to see if others have experienced or are experiencing a similar realization.


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## Tony Dismukes (May 19, 2014)

Anyone who tells you that a BJJ practitioner could _*always *_take down a Tai Chi practitioner or that a Tai Chi practitioner could _*always *_defend against a judoka's throws is full of it.  There are millions of practitioners of Tai Chi, BJJ, Judo, and other grappling arts in the world. They come with all levels of skill in takedowns and defending takedowns (and this skill level may not be perfectly correlated with rank or years of practice). 

Years spent training Tai Chi _should _make you harder to take down, compared to where you would be if you did not have that training. That certainly doesn't mean that you can't be taken down.  If you want to know just how good your takedown defense is, find a whole bunch of wrestlers, judoka, and BJJ practitioners of different sizes and skill levels and try your hand against all of them. You'll probably find that you will do much better against some of them than against others. You'll probably also find that you are much better at defending certain kinds of takedowns than others. The skills to counter a hip throw are not the same as the skills to stop a low single-leg.


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## Steve (May 19, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Anyone who tells you that a BJJ practitioner could _*always *_take down a Tai Chi practitioner or that a Tai Chi practitioner could _*always *_defend against a judoka's throws is full of it.  There are millions of practitioners of Tai Chi, BJJ, Judo, and other grappling arts in the world. They come with all levels of skill in takedowns and defending takedowns (and this skill level may not be perfectly correlated with rank or years of practice).
> 
> Years spent training Tai Chi _should _make you harder to take down, compared to where you would be if you did not have that training. That certainly doesn't mean that you can't be taken down.  If you want to know just how good your takedown defense is, find a whole bunch of wrestlers, judoka, and BJJ practitioners of different sizes and skill levels and try your hand against all of them. You'll probably find that you will do much better against some of them than against others. You'll probably also find that you are much better at defending certain kinds of takedowns than others. The skills to counter a hip throw are not the same as the skills to stop a low single-leg.


this is very true.  I would only add that you might want to consider what happens after the takedown, as well.


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## Xue Sheng (May 19, 2014)

I&#8217;ve typed this out before on MT but it does seem to fit the topic so I will do it again.

I once had a talk with another Taiji guy who had decided to go off and train at his local MMA School and he was having a blast. He was getting taken down (but not as much as one would have thought going in) and learning how to defend against it and what to do once on the ground but he was not the only one learning. The MMA guys were having a real hard time with his relaxation and rooting and at times they could not get him down and they too were having a great time learning how to deal with that. 

From his POV it was a win win from both sides


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 19, 2014)

zzj said:


> judo shares a lot of the same philosophy in terms of not meeting force with force and using your opponent's strength / momentum against him,



Both Taiji and Judo are similar arts. You wait for your opponent to commit on something so you can take advantage on it. I prefer to "give" before I can "take".

When I deal with a Taiji guy (I'm a Taiji guy myself), I always like to use the following strategy. Ill drag my opponent's arm and then try to run toward his back. This will force my opponent to either "yield into me", or "resist against me". In either case, I can borrow his force and take advantage on it.

Of course to avoid the arm dragging is the best solution. What if your opponent already gets your arm and drag you around? So if you are the Taiji guy, what will you do in this situation?


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## Xue Sheng (May 19, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> So if you are the Taiji guy, what will you do in this situation?



Without being there hard to say, but I'm thinking Zhuo if I am quick enough and early, Kao if later or simply not tense my arm and let them run buy with a possible trip. But then I doubt I would be in that position trying to throw a punch or in that stance or reacting like that if you just went for my knee, to many variables and not feeling the way your force is heading... Bottom-line; I am not there and that is simply an MA version of arm chair quarterbacking.


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## BooBoo (May 19, 2014)

I just want to clarify something here. I'm aware that different people have different abilities and skill levels regardless of what martial arts they practice.   But my BJJ friend's criticism of Tai Chi was based on his view that it is not capable of as a martial art of countering the specialised BJJ takedown and ground action because it's not a prime focus of our art. I try to explain to him that in my view Tai Chi is based on principles which allows one to adapt to different situations.  Am I right in viewing Tai Chi training in this manner? My friend didn't seem too convinced!


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 19, 2014)

BooBoo said:


> Tai Chi is based on principles which allows one to adapt to different situations.  Am I right in viewing Tai Chi training in this manner? My friend didn't seem too convinced!


I think your Taiji view is not correct.

You will need 

- throwing skill to throw your opponent. 
- striking skill to knock down your opponent.

You just can't "adapt" your opponent to death.

Hard to be taken down is just not good enough. To adapt to different situations usually means to fall into your opponent's "plan" which is not good.

Here is an example of "adapt". 

Your girl leads you to an expensive department store. You try to "adapt" not to spend too much money.

Here is an example of "lead".

You lead your girl to a "Dollar Tree" store and ask he to buy anything that she desires to.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 19, 2014)

Xue Sheng said:


> Without being there hard to say,...


It's easy to get a training partner and test your solution on it. You will find out that you have to "do something". That's exactly what your opponent wants you to do, to commit on something.


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## Xue Sheng (May 19, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It's easy to get a training partner and test your solution on it.



Not really. 

My response depends on the force/energy coming at me so at best I would be testing variation of what you are talking about.

It has been my experience that there is very little in the way of SD where you can say if A then B, out side of a Marital arts school, since it is very rare that A is exactly the same every time. Therefore B needs to be different depending on A. Which is why I said possible Kao, or Zhou or a possible trip or any other number of possible responses... add to that my "ready stance" in Yang style is not front weighted like the person in the video so what I would do would likely be different..... If I get a chance I will likely mess around with this but even then there are no guarantees that what was used messing around with this will be applied in a real confrontation.

Committing is easy when it happens, but in a web conversation, based on a video it is not so easy...to many variables and to much time to think


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## ST1Doppelganger (May 19, 2014)

I've trained both Yang Tai Chi Chuan & Judo along with grappling arts and have to admit grapplers could benefit greatly by incorporating Tai Chi Chuan in to their training. 

What I can say from my personal exp tai chi improved my grappling game by allowing me to gain a greater sensitivity allowing me to read my opponents subtle shifts in weight. 

When it comes to the stand up game of throws and take downs it did help me greatly because I could sense the off balancing attempts and also absorb and create voids to allow me to off balance my opponent to gain access to the throw or take down. 

I will say tai chi does help greatly but there's no way it's going to stop a top notch judo or sambo  practitioner that has great skills at off balancing and throwing their opponents. 

I will also say that some shoot fighters or wrestlers have a double or single leg that is near impossible to defend against if they get that opportunity to shoot in no matter what style you practice. 

Pretty much my personal opinion is if you practice a grappling or throwing art you should incorporate tai chi in to your training because it fills in some of the gaps that those common arts have.


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## oaktree (May 20, 2014)

From my perspective having done Taijiquan Chen style and some BJJ. BJJ guys have told me it is very difficult for them on the ground to get control of my arms this is due to the amount of Silk reeling which is a type of coiling. Takedowns and off balancing they have also told me harder but I have been taken down I have been submitted. 
In Chen village they are aware of the the ground work and grappling and are coming up with ways to deal with it perhaps they will have a better answer as time goes on.

It would be something to ask one of the Chen family and perhaps have one in the guard to see what would happen, but I imagine they would use a lot of silk reeling principles.


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## hunyuan24 (May 20, 2014)

BooBoo said:


> ...
> Moving on, I discussed this issue with a friend who practices BJJ.  He believes that a BJJ martial artist can *always *take down a Tai Chi martial artist because a BJJ guy specializes in take downs.  He tried out some moves on me, and I must admit that some of their moves are terrifying if you don't naturally defend and adapt to them.  Although we couldn't actually try a proper grappling session because he injured his knee, but he believes that my brother in law was taking it easy on me.  *However, I strongly feel that at certain levels of Tai Chi practice, one would be able to develop natural balance maintenance capabilities and a natural sense of defensive adaptation when faced with someone like a BJJ martial artist who is specialized in take downs and who is intent on taking you down.
> *
> Am I right in my understanding of Tai Chi's teaching methods and that it ultimately seeks to teach a sort of natural defensive capability?  Has anyone had experience being in the scary position of being almost submitted by a BJJ guy?  Did you find that you were able to adapt to the latter?  Any thoughts or experiences would be appreciated.  Thank you all.



I don't profess to know anything about BJJ, but there are certainly striking moves in Tai Chi that can be deadly to anyone who attempts to do double-leg take downs.  In Chen style Tai Chi, there is a move called "middle winding", which includes a downward chopping move that can be applied to the back of the neck (upper cervical spine) for anyone who wants to go for your legs. Similar to a Karate chop. You can kill someone by striking there, so these moves are understandably not allowed in sports competition. 

I think what you have done without resorting to neck strikes is great in a friendly contest.  Just know that there are striking options in Tai Chi to deal with "unreasonable" opponents who expose their vulnerable points, and they are hidden in the forms you practice everyday.

Hope this helps.


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## BooBoo (May 21, 2014)

I found a video of a Tai Chi martial artist and a Luta Livre martial artist having a friendly grappling match.  Luta Livre is a Brazilian martial art derived from Judo and/or wrestling (I think) and at one point was considered a contender for BJJ.  What do you guys think of this video?

[video=youtube;[U]b3Mlao2iHo0][/U]Versus : Taiji vs Luta - YouTube[/video]


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## blindsage (May 21, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Both Taiji and Judo are similar arts. You wait for your opponent to commit on something so you can take advantage on it. I prefer to "give" before I can "take".
> 
> When I deal with a Taiji guy (I'm a Taiji guy myself), I always like to use the following strategy. Ill drag my opponent's arm and then try to run toward his back. This will force my opponent to either "yield into me", or "resist against me". In either case, I can borrow his force and take advantage on it.
> 
> Of course to avoid the arm dragging is the best solution. What if your opponent already gets your arm and drag you around? So if you are the Taiji guy, what will you do in this situation?


Still having a hard time with that peng concept are we?


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## BooBoo (May 21, 2014)

I think that I'm not properly embedding youtube videos so:

(1)  Here's the link to the Tai Chi Martial Artist vs. the Luta Livre Martial Artist referenced in my previous post:






(2) Here's another interesting video showing a Tai Chi martial artist VS. a Judo martial artist.  It's called "Tai Chi Master Wang Zhanhai vs. Judo":

Tai Chi Master Wang Zhanhai vs Judo - YouTube

What do you guys think of these videos in the context of this thread?


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## mograph (May 21, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What if your opponent already gets your arm and drag you around? So if you are the Taiji guy, what will you do in this situation?


Tuck and roll! Tuck and roll!


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## Tony Dismukes (May 21, 2014)

BooBoo said:


> I just want to clarify something here. I'm aware that different people have different abilities and skill levels regardless of what martial arts they practice.   But my BJJ friend's criticism of Tai Chi was based on his view that it is not capable of as a martial art of countering the specialised BJJ takedown and ground action because it's not a prime focus of our art. I try to explain to him that in my view Tai Chi is based on principles which allows one to adapt to different situations.  Am I right in viewing Tai Chi training in this manner? My friend didn't seem too convinced!



With regards to the takedown, your friend is not correct - Tai Chi does contain takedown defense skills, so it becomes a question of the skill of the individual practitioners. With regards to ground fighting once you are taken down, he has a point.  Ground fighting involves a host of specialized concepts, tactics, and techniques that you are not going to be able to derive from first principles fast enough to deal with a skilled BJJ practitioner in real time.



			
				hunyuan24 said:
			
		

> I don't profess to know anything about BJJ, but there are certainly striking moves in Tai Chi that can be deadly to anyone who attempts to do double-leg take downs.  In Chen style Tai Chi, there is a move called "middle winding", which includes a downward chopping move that can be applied to the back of the neck (upper cervical spine) for anyone who wants to go for your legs. Similar to a Karate chop. You can kill someone by striking there, so these moves are understandably not allowed in sports competition.
> 
> I think what you have done without resorting to neck strikes is great in a friendly contest.  Just know that there are striking options in Tai Chi to deal with "unreasonable" opponents who expose their vulnerable points, and they are hidden in the forms you practice everyday.



A correctly executed double-leg in a fighting context does not expose the back of the neck for an effective strike. That doesn't make the strikes you are talking about useless - in the heat of combat a fighter may very well attempt a sloppy takedown attempt which leaves his spine exposed. It can be difficult to take advantage of such sloppiness, however.  For many years, such downwards attacks on an opponents neck were perfectly legal in MMA. Even so, you almost never saw anyone successfully defend a takedown that way.




			
				BooBoo said:
			
		

> (1)  Here's the link to the Tai Chi Martial Artist vs. the Luta Livre Martial Artist referenced in my previous post:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3Mlao2iHo0
> 
> ...



The grappling session with the Luta Livre practitioner went pretty much like you might expect. I wish I understood French so I could understand what they were saying. I also wish they had gone on a bit longer so we could see more of how they adapted to each other.

I don't know what was up with the big judo guy - he didn't behave the way a smart judo player would if he was trying to win. He made no attempt to fight for superior grips or positioning. Instead he just voluntarily went into a symmetric clinch with the tai chi practitioner and tried to force a throw using his size. I don't know if the producers of the show arranged that or if he just thought he could rely on size instead of technique.


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## blindsage (May 21, 2014)




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## Kung Fu Wang (May 21, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I don't know what was up with the big judo guy - he didn't behave the way a smart judo player would if he was trying to win. He made no attempt to fight for superior grips or positioning. Instead he just voluntarily went into a symmetric clinch with the tai chi practitioner and tried to force a throw using his size. I don't know if the producers of the show arranged that or if he just thought he could rely on size instead of technique.


IMO, it's strategy, strategy, and still strategy.

Since both Taiji guy and Judo guy all have good listening ability. To let your opponent to be able to sense your intention is not a smart strategy. If he uses the strategy as showing in the following clip by keep breaking his opponent's contact points. If his opponent wants to get back into clinch, he has to do something. You can then take advantage on that commitment.


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## drop bear (May 22, 2014)

BooBoo said:


> I think that I'm not properly embedding youtube videos so:
> 
> (1)  Here's the link to the Tai Chi Martial Artist vs. the Luta Livre Martial Artist referenced in my previous post:
> 
> ...




I watched a bit of the first one and taichi guy is making some technical mistakes that are pretty common because they feel intuitive. I will have a beer look when I have more time.


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## hunyuan24 (May 23, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> A correctly executed double-leg in a fighting context does not expose the back of the neck for an effective strike. That doesn't make the strikes you are talking about useless - in the heat of combat a fighter may very well attempt a sloppy takedown attempt which leaves his spine exposed. It can be difficult to take advantage of such sloppiness, however.  For many years, such downwards attacks on an opponents neck were perfectly legal in MMA. Even so, you almost never saw anyone successfully defend a takedown that way.



I think you are right.  The theoretical defense technique is there, but it still takes practice and skills to lure an opponent into overextending and exposing his vulnerable points.  That's the tricky part.

Thanks for your answer on this.


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