# The new Sherlock Holmes and wing chun



## dnovice (Dec 30, 2009)

Apparently Sherlock Holmes practice wing chun The fight scenes are packed with wing chun moves. 

My overall impression of the movie: The fight scenes were great, while the plot production of the movie were just ok.


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## Omar B (Dec 30, 2009)

I think that was more of Robert Downey Jr showing through since he is a chunner.  

Interview with the movie's fight choreographer:  http://www.bartitsu.org/index.php/2...lock-holmes-fight-choreographer-richard-ryan/


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## Gordon Nore (Dec 30, 2009)

Omar B said:


> I think that was more of Robert Downey Jr showing through since he is a chunner.
> 
> Interview with the movie's fight choreographer: http://www.bartitsu.org/index.php/2...lock-holmes-fight-choreographer-richard-ryan/


 
Thanks, Omar. That site was very interesting. I remember the topic of bartitsu coming up here in the past, including it's appearances in Holmes books. A search of "bartitsu" on this site yields several threads.


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 30, 2009)

Bartitsu

http://www.answers.com/topic/bartitsu


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## dnovice (Dec 30, 2009)

Omar B said:


> I think that was more of Robert Downey Jr showing through since he is a chunner.
> 
> Interview with the movie's fight choreographer: http://www.bartitsu.org/index.php/2...lock-holmes-fight-choreographer-richard-ryan/


 
It actually is more than Downey showing through according to your link. Apparently, for avoid licensing conflicts they created a neo-bartitsu, a bit different from the normal bartitsu. They used wing chun together with some other arts...

excerpt from above link...
"Bartitsu, as you are acutely aware, is a mixed martial art involving boxing, ju-jitsu, savate, stickfighting and swordplay that was popular at the turn of the 20th century. In developing our Holmes combat style we wanted to use a neo-Bartitsu that was in keeping with the film&#8217;s contemporary aesthetic. *To do this we chose to utilize the Chinese boxing that Downey practices* as the foundation and also incorporate swordplay and elements of Brazilian ju-jitsu, which Ritchie practices"


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## bully (Dec 30, 2009)

Watched it this afternoon.

Was going to start a thread, but was beaten to it!!

Definitely some WC in there, Downey being an avid practitioner.

All good publicity for the art, but don't think non WC's will know what they are looking at.

Film was OK, a bit boring in the middle, 6/10 for me.

Last thing, I agree with dnovice, it is a lot more than Downey Jr being a WC guy coming through. If you read the whole interview you will see that.


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## Jenny_in_Chico (Dec 30, 2009)

My only beef with the movie was the costumery. Not entirely true to the period, and they dressed and painted Irene Adler like a prostitute.


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## Stac3y (Dec 30, 2009)

Now I want to see this film even more. Yippee!


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## Steve (Dec 30, 2009)

I was so proud to see that Watson didn't cross his feet as he choked out the giant by RNC.  

I'd agree with 6/10.  Pretty good but I was expecting a more complex plot.   For a Sherlock movie, there wasn't a lot of real mystery.   No twists.


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## profesormental (Dec 30, 2009)

Of course not!

It's elementary!


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## dnovice (Dec 30, 2009)

bully said:


> Film was OK, a bit boring in the middle, 6/10 for me.
> 
> Last thing, I agree with dnovice, it is a lot more than Downey Jr being a WC guy coming through. If you read the whole interview you will see that.


 
I second that 6/10. 



Stac3y said:


> Now I want to see this film even more. Yippee!


 
The action scenes are definitely worth seeing. The plot as steve said above is not all that. 



stevebjj said:


> I was so proud to see that Watson didn't cross his feet as he choked out the giant by RNC.
> 
> I'd agree with 6/10. Pretty good but I was expecting a more complex plot. For a Sherlock movie, there wasn't a lot of real mystery. No twists.


 
I actually passed out sometime after the second fight when a lot just started to happen and then woke up right before the next fight scene;-) 



profesormental said:


> Of course not!
> 
> It's elementary!


 
... Watson!


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## dnovice (Dec 30, 2009)

For those of you who have seen the movie do you ever process a fight the way Downey broke down the fight in his head, before actually fighting. For example, when you see a possible opponent you start thinking, first i will slap his eardrums, move into a chop to his neck, stomp his knee and finish it off with a sweep...

When I have sufficient time to think I do this spontaneously when I'm I've faced an aggressive person; I was never trained to do this.


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## Stac3y (Dec 31, 2009)

dnovice said:


> I second that 6/10.
> The action scenes are definitely worth seeing. The plot as steve said above is not all that.


 
The plot may not be "all that," but the actors certainly are. Yum.


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## Steve (Dec 31, 2009)

Stac3y said:


> The plot may not be "all that," but the actors certainly are. Yum.


 My wife said pretty much the same thing.


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## Gordon Nore (Dec 31, 2009)

Xue Sheng said:


> Bartitsu


 
The link triggered a memory for me. When I was a kid my uncle had what he described to me as an old London policeman's walking stick. It was a sword inside the covering -- perhaps a hollow wooden or bamboo sheathe, I don't recall for sure. I wonder if this implement is connected to the practice of Bartitsu.


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## dnovice (Dec 31, 2009)

Stac3y said:


> The plot may not be "all that," but the actors certainly are. Yum.


 
:roflmao:


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## yorkshirelad (Dec 31, 2009)

Gordon Nore said:


> The link triggered a memory for me. When I was a kid my uncle had what he described to me as an old London policeman's walking stick. It was a sword inside the covering -- perhaps a hollow wooden or bamboo sheathe, I don't recall for sure. I wonder if this implement is connected to the practice of Bartitsu.


Conan Doyle refered to Holmes' fighting style as Baritsu, which was just a misspelling for Bartitsu. The movie itself is just a good yarn. My wife and I enjoyed it. We are both fans of Guy Ritchie, Robert Downey and I am and always have been a keen fan of Conan Doyle.

Guy Ritchie is an avid Bjj practitoner and used to train regulary with the former conservative party leader William Hague. BJJ was represented by the rear naked choke and arm bar performed against the very large Frenchman in the movie.

Downey is a WC practitioner and represented his art in the bareknuckle boxing match.

As a martial artist, I would've loved to see some historical research done on Bartitsu. I believe the art is pretty much dead apart from a few manuals and various martial artists who have attempted to resurrect the art. I don't think that there is a lineage directly associated with Barton-Wright. His art as a mixture of Kito ryu and Kodokan Judo (which I believe he learned from Kano in Japan) bare knuckle boxing and the French art of Le Canne.


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## dungeonworks (Dec 31, 2009)

Robert Downey Jr is a direct student of William Cheung I believe.  Their was a good piece on him somewhere in the American news media showing him practice with Sifu Cheung and how he is using Wing Chun to overcome his demons as well as Tai Chi practice.  I can relate to using Martial Arts to overcome certain instabilities during my life back in my Koei Kan Karate Do days.  I am not a church kind of guy, but I did find the same qualities and sanctity in the dojo as one may find in a church, synagogue, mosque...ect.  Therefore, I can relate on some levels to Downey and have always been a fan of his work.

The interview/news spotlight is somewhere on YouTube I believe and came out around the release of the first Iron Man movie.


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## dungeonworks (Dec 31, 2009)

Heres one that also mentions Nic Cage in Bangkok Dangerous as well as RDJ.


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## jks9199 (Dec 31, 2009)

yorkshirelad said:


> As a martial artist, I would've loved to see some historical research done on Bartitsu. I believe the art is pretty much dead apart from a few manuals and various martial artists who have attempted to resurrect the art. I don't think that there is a lineage directly associated with Barton-Wright. His art as a mixture of Kito ryu and Kodokan Judo (which I believe he learned from Kano in Japan) bare knuckle boxing and the French art of Le Canne.


There is a group working on resurrecting/reviving Bartitsu; the article linked in the OP is from one of their websites.  The original art did pretty much die out, according to what I've read.  There were some internal issues about the facility, as I recall, as well as some falling outs between the early instructors/members.


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## bully (Jan 1, 2010)

jks9199 said:


> There is a group working on resurrecting/reviving Bartitsu; the article linked in the OP is from one of their websites.  The original art did pretty much die out, according to what I've read.  There were some internal issues about the facility, as I recall, *as well as some falling outs between the early instructors/members*.



Remind you of any art

Would be an interesting art to study I think from a historical pov.


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## Tez3 (Jan 1, 2010)

profesormental said:


> Of course not!
> 
> *It's elementary*!


 

The phrase 'it's elementary my dear Watson' is by PG Wodehouse not Conan Doyle, Holmes never said it once.

dnovice, in certain circumstances to deflect a fight my instructor will tell an aggressor what he will do to him, blow by blow, if he won't back off he does exactly that! My instructor is a 'cold' fighter, no red mist just ice in the veins.

Yorkshirelad, William Hague is our MP, lives just a mile down the road, we've invited him to come and train with us any time but he always seems too busy lol! I don't like his politics but he's a nice guy and a good MP. I was going to say about Ritchie and BJJ but you beat me to it.


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## chrispillertkd (Jan 1, 2010)

bully said:


> All good publicity for the art, but don't think non WC's will know what they are looking at.


 
Don't be so sure. I've never practiced WC (and I've only seen it demonstrated live a couple of times) but as soon as I saw the boxing match I thought to myself, "He's doing Wing Chun." 

Pax,

Chris


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## Omar B (Jan 1, 2010)

jks9199 said:


> There is a group working on resurrecting/reviving Bartitsu; the article linked in the OP is from one of their websites.  The original art did pretty much die out, according to what I've read.  There were some internal issues about the facility, as I recall, as well as some falling outs between the early instructors/members.



As far as I'm concerned, it's a dead art.  Much like Pankration, nobody alive has ever really seen it.  We know the influences and may have a training manual or two and some drawings ... but nothing enough to reconstruct a whole system.  We can know all the influences that went into an art and create something "similar" but without the original system around we'll not get things like what stance they used mostly, how were transitions between the ranges done, breathing tech, one could go on about the stuff that you can't really get from literature and illustrations.


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## Tez3 (Jan 1, 2010)

Omar B said:


> As far as I'm concerned, it's a dead art. Much like Pankration, nobody alive has ever really seen it. We know the influences and may have a training manual or two and some drawings ... but nothing enough to reconstruct a whole system. We can know all the influences that went into an art and create something "similar" but without the original system around we'll not get things like what stance they used mostly, how were transitions between the ranges done, breathing tech, one could go on about the stuff that you can't really get from literature and illustrations.


 

I think you may be wrong about there no one being alive to see it,the founder didn't die until 1951, he was still demonstrating and lecturing about it up till his death so I imagine there are people still around who may remember seeing it. However the practicioners wouldn't have stopped just because the club closed so it would have carried on perhaps under a different name but there's obviously enough information around for the society to start up teaching it again.
What I found the best thing about 'Batitsu' was the encouragement that women were given to participate.


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## jks9199 (Jan 1, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> I think you may be wrong about there no one being alive to see it,the founder didn't die until 1951, he was still demonstrating and lecturing about it up till his death so I imagine there are people still around who may remember seeing it. However the practicioners wouldn't have stopped just because the club closed so it would have carried on perhaps under a different name but there's obviously enough information around for the society to start up teaching it again.
> What I found the best thing about 'Batitsu' was the encouragement that women were given to participate.


I think there's also a good argument to be made that Bartitsu was a marketing approach and training approach, bringing a more Western approach to Eastern martial arts.

Kind of like a forerunner to modern MMA...


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## Tez3 (Jan 1, 2010)

This guy thinks it's FMA he's doing.
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=83434


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## Devon (Jan 3, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> I think you may be wrong about there no one being alive to see it,the founder didn't die until 1951, he was still demonstrating and lecturing about it up till his death so I imagine there are people still around who may remember seeing it. However the practicioners wouldn't have stopped just because the club closed so it would have carried on perhaps under a different name but there's obviously enough information around for the society to start up teaching it again.
> What I found the best thing about 'Batitsu' was the encouragement that women were given to participate.



I'm a member of the Bartitsu Society and am actively involved in the "revival" effort.  Basically, for most practical purposes, Bartitsu did die out when the Bartitsu Club closed in 1902.  There are persistent rumors that Barton-Wright continued to develop it and teach it privately into the 1920s, but those have never been confirmed.  Thus, probably more by force of circumstances than by design, Bartitsu was left as a "work in progress" rather than as a complete, codified system.

Various practitioners, including former Bartitsu Club instructors and their students, did keep practicing similar cross-training methods, but none of them perpetuated the Bartitsu name.  Barton-Wright himself seems to have shifted gears and threw himself into his other big passion, which was physical therapy;  he persisted with that career for the rest of his long life (dying in 1951 at the age of ninety).

Also, there are a few judo and jujitsu clubs in England that can trace their origins back to former Bartitsu Club instructors Yukio Tani and Sadakazu Uyenishi.  Tani taught at the famous London Budokwai for many years, and that club is still gong strong.

The modern revival of Bartitsu began in 2002, after Barton-Wright's original articles were rediscovered in the British Library archives and published online on the EJMAS website.  We train in what we refer to as "canonical" Bartitsu, which is the collection of about 40 jujitsu kata and walking stick defense sequences detailed by Barton-Wright's articles.  

Obviously, since he didn't record the whole art, the canon is incomplete, so we've also developed "neo-Bartitsu", which refers to cross-training and pressure testing "experiments" between 19th century "British jujitsu", old-school scientific boxing or fisticuffs, low kicking and the Vigny style of Swiss stick fighting.  The idea is to continue Barton-Wright's work in progress, rather than to fully recreate the original art of Bartitsu.


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## Tez3 (Jan 3, 2010)

I've heard stories about army officers continuing to train troops in Bartitsu before. While it may have died out I still doubt that no one alive has seen it. I think it just may seen improbable to younger people lol! The 1920s isn't so far away you know, it just seems it when you are young!


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## Devon (Jan 3, 2010)

Are you sure those stories referred to Bartitsu, rather than to "defendo" or "defendu"?  There were several similar eclectic styles taught to members of the Armed Forces during both the First and Second World Wars, but in seven years of very intensive research on this subject, I've never encountered a ref. to Bartitsu itself being taught past 1902.  As I mentioned, the rumours about B-W continuing to teach it into the '20s have never been confirmed.

Anyway, if it was possible to confirm these stories, that would be great - it might open up whole new fields of research!


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## Tez3 (Jan 3, 2010)

Devon said:


> Are you sure those stories referred to Bartitsu, rather than to "defendo" or "defendu"? There were several similar eclectic styles taught to members of the Armed Forces during both the First and Second World Wars, but in seven years of very intensive research on this subject, I've never encountered a ref. to Bartitsu itself being taught past 1902. As I mentioned, the rumours about B-W continuing to teach it into the '20s have never been confirmed.
> 
> Anyway, if it was possible to confirm these stories, that would be great - it might open up whole new fields of research!


 
I will ask around. I first heard about Bartitsu in the 70s when I worked with some army types in MOD, London.


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## Devon (Jan 3, 2010)

Please do.  Any real leads as to the survival of Barton-Wright's art further in to the 20th century would be solid gold to the Bartitsu Society.


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## Devon (Jan 3, 2010)

For general interest, here's the preview trailer for the Society's upcoming feature documentary, "Bartitsu: the Lost Martial Art of Sherlock Holmes" -


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## bully (Jan 3, 2010)

Cheers for the interesting posts Devon, be nice if you could pop in here now and again update the thread if you find anymore out??

I had never heard of Bartitsu until coming on here the other day after watching Sherlock Holmes.


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## Devon (Jan 3, 2010)

Sure!  This is kind of a busy time for Bartitsu; if you're generally interested, I'd suggest checking out the essays and news page on www.bartitsu.org .


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## Jeff Richardson (Jan 25, 2010)

Here is another article on the subject.  And instruction in Bartitsu available on the West Coast at several schools.
http://www.salem-news.com/articles/december272009/holmes.php


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## MA-Caver (Jan 25, 2010)

Gordon Nore said:


> The link triggered a memory for me. When I was a kid my uncle had what he described to me as an old London policeman's walking stick. It was a sword inside the covering -- perhaps a hollow wooden or bamboo sheathe, I don't recall for sure. I wonder if this implement is connected to the practice of Bartitsu.


One would imagine that quite a few people carried a sword cane clandestinely and even applied the Bartitsu techniques ... IF they learned them. Yet also fencing was popular and other sword fighting methods learned by the upper-class of the day. Yet I would imagine that the sword canes of the 1800's were more of a peace-of-mind weaponry than one used with skill, I mean what low-life robber(s) would have the right mind to try and go up against a "gentleman" wielding a blade larger than the pig-sticker he/they might've been carrying.
Likewise those of Holmes caliber/class likely stuck to boxing as a SD technique, rather the messy closed in fighting/wrestling used by the lower class with no other skill than what they learned on the street. 

My friends who have watched the new Holmes movies complained about the lack of mystery/intrigued that they expected the title to give them. Saw more "action" than a brilliant detective figuring out the crime in his head by looking at subtle clues and using deduction like the great films of the Basil Rathbone series. My mantra upon hearing this has been "read the books, read the books"... and of course I get a funny look like "what the hell is a book?" 
Violence wasn't overtly shown back then as it is today. Today's Holmes would've been banned or heavily edited to almost nothing. It's nice to hear that they shed light on the fighting skills of the great detective. I would imagine that the next film (yeah, c'mon you KNOW they'll do a sequel  ) may have better writing and indepth plot line keeping with the great detective stories.


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## Gordon Nore (Jan 25, 2010)

MA-Caver said:


> My friends who have watched the new Holmes movies complained about the lack of mystery/intrigued that they expected the title to give them. Saw more "action" than a brilliant detective figuring out the crime in his head by looking at subtle clues and using deduction like the great films of the Basil Rathbone series. My mantra upon hearing this has been "read the books, read the books"... and of course I get a funny look like "what the hell is a book?"


 
Funny you should mention that. I must confess, I only ever read one or two Holmes novels when I was quite young, so I don't have a clear image of the characters the author envisioned. In reading some of the background to this film, as well as reading Holmsians post on here, I'm getting the sense of a much darker character than we saw in Rathbone/Bruce movies.

So in watching the film, I was caught up in the persona of Holmes, his rapparte with Watson and Watson's g/f, the action, etc. I really lost track of the mystery. I'll have to watch it again on DVD.


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## Omar B (Jan 25, 2010)

Yeah, Holmes is pretty bad-***.  But in the books the fights, action and so on happened off screen since the stories are told in the form of articles written by Watson for the newspaper.  Fights, conflicts and such are mentioned but never in depth, whereas dialogue, investigation, experimentation and how Holmes' mind works takes up the bulk of the story.

But he is a pretty dark character but they'll never portray him fully as such on film.  After all, he is a pretty brutal drug addict who's in and out of hospital because when he doesn't have a case he gets bored and uses.  He also dislikes people almost universally, except for Watson and his brother Mycroft.  Other people are just there to give him a problem to solve.

I've yet to see the drug addled misanthrope on screen ... unless you count Dr House on TV which is Holmes.


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## Gordon Nore (Jan 25, 2010)

Omar B said:


> But he is a pretty dark character but they'll never portray him fully as such on film. After all, he is a pretty brutal drug addict who's in and out of hospital because when he doesn't have a case he gets bored and uses. He also dislikes people almost universally, except for Watson and his brother Mycroft. Other people are just there to give him a problem to solve.


 
Hmmm. Sounds like TV's Dr House.


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## mograph (Jan 26, 2010)

Gordon Nore said:


> Hmmm. Sounds like TV's Dr House.



That was the intention:
House/Holmes.
Wilson/Watson.
Vicodin/cocaine.
House's apartment: 221B.

... and so on ....


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## Omar B (Jan 26, 2010)

Gordon Nore said:


> Hmmm. Sounds like TV's Dr House.



Wait ... you didn't know that the show was a (hackneyed) retelling of Homes?


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## Gordon Nore (Jan 26, 2010)

Dang, I feel stoopid.


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## blindsage (Jan 26, 2010)

Don't worry, I feel stupid too.  Of course I've never read any of the books and have never seen a Holmes on film that I would relate to House.


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## Omar B (Jan 26, 2010)

Don't feel bad, you've not read them.  I just assumed everyone's read them being so old and oft referenced.  Hell, I didn't know the House/Holmes connection till last November after my car accident.  I hate medical shows but was stuck at home and my mother had it on TV so I saw it and it occurred to me.


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## graychuan (Feb 1, 2010)

FYI ... The original Holmes canon was the short stories and Doyle's 4 novels(I think). All of the short stories are available for free online at http://www.mysterynet.com

they are all in downloadable formats as well.

Peace!!!


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## graychuan (Feb 18, 2010)

ipod/iphone application of Sherlock Holmes Classics. Was priced but now is for free limited time though App Store via Itunes.


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## Domino (Feb 24, 2010)

I really liked the film, my friend said he can see some pencak silat.


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