# Pankration Vs Traditional Asian Martial Arts.



## asoka (May 4, 2002)

First of all for those who don't know what Pankration is,it's a martial arts that combines MuayThai Kickboxing and Submission Wrestling,giving the advantage over most arts because of it's ability to fight both stand up and on ground.

Traditional arts as in the traditional asian arts like karate,tae kwon do,kung fu,and many other arts,can be said to be of no use.

Let me give you my reason as well as  15yrs. experience as a martial artist.

1/ Traditional arts teach katas which are pre-arranged forms,with very few effective hidden techniques.Stances in traditional arts would never work in a real situation.

2/ In traditional arts a student is taught to pull back on his/her punches in fear of hurting another student.Infact most students of these styles fight in point sparring instead of full contact or continuous sparring.

3/ The forms done in Traditional Asian Arts puts limits on students,instead of them being able to put themselves in the shoes of a real fighter.The forms are no doubt great for concentration,balance,focus,and co-ordination as a true martial artist needs,however there are better ways to train in this.These forms are useless for actual self-defense.Very few techniques would work.

4/ Katas give students a false belief that ,by repetition of these forms their fighting ability will improve,giving them a better chance of being able to defend themselves,when infact it could be making things worse by doing the exact opposite.It doesn't properly prepare you for an attack since forms are usually done going across the floor ,looking through a mirror.

5/ Students and those who teach these asian arts don't realize to beat a fighter you have to put yourself in their shoes.In other words to be a fighter you must train like one.Do you honestly think some attacker is going to come at you in fancy stance,making it easy for you to kick his ***?Hell no.If a mugger was going to make it easy there would be no point in learning self-defense.

6/ Most instructors of these asian arts don't even know the bunkai to the katas they teach,they just know how to do the forms in itself.They teach it the way they were taught,and expect you to listen and learn without being questioned about it.
If you're going to pay to learn something shouldn't you have the right to question what you are learning and expect to know how to apply what you learn? Hell ya.

In Pankration,an instructor expects to be questioned and is prepared to answer and knows how to apply what he/she is teaching.

Pankration doesn't rely on pre-arranged techniques moving across the floor.

In Pankration we are taught moves that are both shown and applied on a partner.Every technique involves the use of another person,never done on its own.We are taught the moves in several ways but are also taught those exact techniques may be applied in many other ways,not just limited to ways taught in class.

In Pankration we don't have any fancy,but useless stances like sanchin,shicko dachi etc.we only have left and right fighting stance.

In Pankration we also are not taught to pull back on punches and kicks unlike in Traditional Asian Arts.With Pankration everything is straight to the point and full contact.

Also in Pankration we try to visualize ourself in the shoes of a fighter,and try to think like one,we also realize to beat a fighter you must train like one.

All our techniques are also applications no beating around the bush.

This is the difference between Pankration and Traditional Asian Arts.

Arts like Pankration,Savate,Shootfighting,Judo(despite being an asian art from japan),Jujitsu among many others are the true arts of self-defense.


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## islandtime (May 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by asoka _
> 
> *First of all for those who don't know what Pankration is,it's a martial arts that combines MuayThai Kickboxing and Submission Wrestling,giving the advantage over most arts because of it's ability to fight both stand up and on ground.
> 
> ...


......................................................................................
Asoka

Please, don't hold back.

Tell us how great your art is and how everyone else sucks .
I agree with you, your (insert name of style) is the greatest and you and your students could kick but on anyone in any situation


You might consider editing your post and adding the "Soap" icon at the top


Regards
Gene Gabel


:asian:


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## Damian Mavis (May 5, 2002)

Ya, I don't think your suddenly changing everyones perspective and we are all forsaking our training and rushing out to take pancration.  So...what exactly is the point of the post?

And the poll is busted

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## fist of fury (May 5, 2002)




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## Turner (May 5, 2002)

Perhaps the scary thing is that I am a non-traditionalist and yet I have counter-points.. so without further ado:



> 1/ Traditional arts teach katas which are pre-arranged forms,with very few effective hidden techniques.Stances in traditional arts would never work in a real situation.



This is a very flawwed perception. I've been in 'real' situations and I know that these 'traditional stances' can come in handy. In combat, your primary stances are going to be a left and right fighting stance AND <which you didn't include> a natural stance. However, in the course of combat you will often go into other stances that I have termed 'transition stances.'

Cat stance: This is very simple. If you are going to throw a snap kick you will probably go into a very fast cat stance as you lift your leg off the ground.

Crane Stance: This too is fairly obvious. If you are going to throw any type of kick or leg blocks that are common in Kickboxing you will be in a one-legged or crane stance.

Front Leaning Stance <forward bow>: Let's say that you threw a snap kick and it was blocked and you were thrown off balance... the resulting stance would be a front leaning stance. If you didn't you would fall and that is the reason you practice stances... to keep from falling. This stance is also great for leg buckles and throws.

Horse Stance: Let's say that you threw a side kick and it was blocked and you were thrown off balance... the resulting stance would be a horse stance. If you didn't you would probably fall.  
This stance can also be used for throws.



> 2/ In traditional arts a student is taught to pull back on his/her punches in fear of hurting another student.Infact most students of these styles fight in point sparring instead of full contact or continuous sparring.



So what would your advice be? To just pound away on each other, get injured and not be able to train for a couple of weeks? How intelligent is that? A warrior does his/her best to keep in the best training shape. Sure full contact and continuous sparring provides better results than point sparring, but sparring is just one tool of many to developing proficiency in the martial artists.



> 3/ The forms done in Traditional Asian Arts puts limits on students,instead of them being able to put themselves in the shoes of a real fighter.The forms are no doubt great for concentration,balance,focus,and co-ordination as a true martial artist needs,however there are better ways to train in this.These forms are useless for actual self-defense.Very few techniques would work.



What limits? Always go into depth. As you can see by the responses, you are not being taken seriously because you offer no substance to back your statements up. Allow me to help you...
It is common in Asian martial arts to execute one punch per stance/move. This gives the practitioner a lot of power, but it binds their ability to react to the ever changing reality of combat. In the amount of time it takes you to move from a Left Front Leaning Stance to a Right Front Leaning Stance in your floor drills or Kata, you should be able to throw AT LEAST 5 strikes. If you don't practice doing that you probably won't do it in the street.

Forms are great for Concentration, Balance, Focus and coordination and you are right in that there are better ways to train for these.. However, forms are great for training on your own when you don't have a partner to train with as is recommended. Forms are also great because they are boring. Huh? Well, if you do them enough you will start to think about something else and enter into a state called "Mind-no-mind." It is like the time when you dropped a jar or a plate and snagged it out of the air. You instantly entered a state and were able to do an amazing feat. Forms are not the only drills that develop mind-no-mind, but all other ones depend on a partner... which is not always available. If all of your drills are dependant upon a partner you are going to be screwed because a 'warrior' doesn't practice in just class. S/he is constantly training at every opportunity.



> 4/ Katas give students a false belief that ,by repetition of these forms their fighting ability will improve,giving them a better chance of being able to defend themselves,when infact it could be making things worse by doing the exact opposite.It doesn't properly prepare you for an attack since forms are usually done going across the floor ,looking through a mirror.



You are purely wrong. Forms do improve fighting ability. There may be drills that cause those improvements to come faster but the development of Coordination, Focus, Discipline, Balance and Mind-No-Mind are still part of a person's fighting ability and still are improved by forms. And while I don't teach forms or practice them, I have in the past and I never did them looking in a mirror. The purpose is to imagine an attacker and respond with speed and precision. Many instructors have forms training without lights or by throwing obsticales on the ground to simulate uneven ground.



> 5/ Students and those who teach these asian arts don't realize to beat a fighter you have to put yourself in their shoes.In other words to be a fighter you must train like one.Do you honestly think some attacker is going to come at you in fancy stance,making it easy for you to kick his ***?Hell no.If a mugger was going to make it easy there would be no point in learning self-defense.



Why would I want to be in my assailant's shoes? First, I believe in honor and I would never want to put myself in a deviant's shoes. Yes, you have to train hard but you shouldn't train like a mugger.. most of them don't have much training at all... they are more akin to a buzzard than a lion. A lion goes hunting but a buzzard is a predator of chance, only going after something that is dead or obviously weaker than itself. The best way to defeat the predator of chance is to be at the top of the food chain.. in essence you have to develop confidence and give an outward appearance of being healthy and strong... Indomitable Spirit, which can be developed by shugyo training which can be intense repitition of.... Kata.
Is the mugger going to come at you with a fancy stance? Nope, more than likey he is going to come at you from behind or get in real close to try to control you easier. And as for fighting in fancy stances... have you ever seen anyone in a traditional asian art spar? How often do you see them use those 'flashy' stances with the exception of transitionally like I spoke of before?



> In Pankration we don't have any fancy,but useless stances like sanchin,shicko dachi etc.we only have left and right fighting stance.



Ahh, I did leave out Sanchin Dachi or the Hour glass stance. This is an excellent stance for checking someone's leg and taking them to the ground. I've actually used it against a potential assailant (was bugging one of my friends) and put him on his keister, ending the conflict. (well, that and the fact that I followed it up by putting my foot on his throat.)



> In Pankration,an instructor expects to be questioned and is prepared to answer and knows how to apply what he/she is teaching



That's great... All martial artists should. I agree that it is a sad fact that many don't, but there are a great number that still do.


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## asoka (May 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Damian Mavis _
> 
> *Ya, I don't think your suddenly changing everyones perspective and we are all forsaking our training and rushing out to take pancration.  So...what exactly is the point of the post?
> 
> ...




That's okay,I'm not trying to change anyone's perspective,the point of this post is to share ideas and information on their traditional asian arts or on arts like pankration,savate,shooto fighting etc.


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## Zoran (May 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by asoka _
> *
> That's okay,I'm not trying to change anyone's perspective,the point of this post is to share ideas and information on their traditional asian arts or on arts like pankration,savate,shooto fighting etc. *



Share  

More like shove it down our throats.:drinkbeer: 

Right back at ya baby:barf:


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## asoka (May 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Turner _
> 
> *Perhaps the scary thing is that I am a non-traditionalist and yet I have counter-points.. so without further ado:
> 
> ...




No offense but,you are wrong.In kickboxing there are no one legged kicks,we don't balance on one leg before kicking or do crane stance and kicks like in traditional asian martial arts,so get your facts straight.

Shicko stance(horse stance)is useless both for kicking and blocking,in this stance you're leaving yourself wide open to get smoked in groin or legs sweeped or even kicked in back of knee cap.

Necko dachi (cat stance)you'd have to be a fool to kick from that stance,you're making it difficult for yourself to kick from,compared to doing a regular front kick.

 Sanchin Dachi stance could never work ,try and throw me in that stance and I'd turn it against you and end up throwing you instead.

If forms are great for improving fighting ability then why is it the best fighters are those styles who have never done forms or no longer do them.Like you said and as I said also before,they're great for co-ordination,focus,and balance,but I believe they are pointless for self-defense,that's my opinion anyways.

There are better ways to become a better fighter in martial arts then doing forms.

You asked ,why would I want to train as a migger would when they don't know how to fight properly most of the time,well then what's the difference with a mugger and someone who does forms? There is no difference.A kata person relies on their forms and stances and whatever else they have learnt to help them on the street when really it won't in most cases.

I believe  40%  of stuff taught in traditional asian arts would work compared to 95 % percent of those arts that concentrate specifically on street defense.If traditional asian arts taught the same techniques you find in the forms without doing the actual forms then perhaps it would be more useful.Even then many of the techniques in the forms won't be much use,but I do agree that there are still some that will work,like knife had chops,elbows and grabs to throat.Outside of the katas in these arts maybe the grabs and eye jabbing and arm breaks will work,but other then that very few stuff would work.

The most effective techniques are the ones that don't involve pulling back punches,kicks etc. The only time we don't use full force is if we're practicing locks ,elbows,and chokes since we don't want to kill our class mates of course, but the kicks and punches are full out on kicking shields,heavy bag and each other.We go all the way through otherwise.

There is a huge difference between hitting a target and punching in the air.With us, all punches and kicks come in contact with something whether it's shields or others.

I've done traditional asian arts before,did Goju Ryu karate for along time.I like it ,but eventually quit when I found better and realized these asian arts aren't really as effective as claimed.I could never go back to these types of arts,not after experiencing much better.

One thing about traditional arts is you learn all these techniques you never use in sparring,why learn them if you're not going to get to use them even in sparring?

All techniques we learn can be used both in the ring or on the street whether stand up or grappling.

You mentioned earlier a true warrior doesn't just practice at school but at home.I absolutely agree,however you also asked how you're supposed to practice on own,well it's obvious,the heavy or ask friends to let you practice on them(just be careful,if they don't know anything about martial arts).

I practice on friends,heavy bag at weightlifting gym I workout at and go for long walks or jogging to keep in shape.


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## asoka (May 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by asoka _
> 
> *
> 
> ...


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## Turner (May 6, 2002)

Perhaps my live-in experience in a Kyokushin-Kai Karate <similar to kickboxing/muy thai> or my other 16 years of experience in Jujitsu, various forms of Karate, street-fighting and Kenpo were all dreams where the physics and laws of gravity were different; but dang.. I can't see how you kick with both legs without being able to fly. In my dream world I gotta be at least on one leg in order to kick and as I am lifting my leg I will ever so briefly be in a cat stance <if using a front leg kick> and in a longer period of time be in a one-legged stance <crane stance when the leg is chambered and rechambered> as I am doing ANY type of kick.

Stances... Well, those are easy to debate because there are different strokes for different folks.. which is why we have thousands of different forms of martial arts. Each person is unique and so different things work in a fight. I found that a deep front leaning stance was great for shooting in on someone and a modified horse stance was great when dealing with someone grabbing me in a bear hug... things that I have used 'for real.' Sanchin Dachi worked that one time for me and that is enough for me to see that it might not be useful but it certainly isn't worthless. Perhaps it wouldn't work against you... especially if you knew it is coming... but it served its purpose once and that is enough for me to believe that it was worth learning. Knowledge is power and I prefer to know as much as I can so I have more at my disposal in conflict.

Forms... I don't teach them any more because there are better drills to practice in class, but I do practice them when I am training alone because there isn't many drills you can do on your own with no equipment. They are not useful but they are not useless. Gotta differentiate between the two.

I teach Kenpo and I go full contact on sheilds and use strikes in the air. I use the air because I want more people working at once which would be hard if there was one person holding a sheild for each kicker. You have to have more movement than just one kick at a time. You've got to step, pivot, shuffle, bob and weave while throwing your punch and kick combinations in order to fully simulate a real fight. People aren't just going to stand in place (or swing) like the heavy bag does or a lot of people do when practicing on sheilds. I practice strikes in the air to give a person the feel of knowing what to do when they miss. You've gotta know how to follow up even after a miss.. you're body reacts differently between a hit and a miss and it is important to get the person in the mindset of continuing to strike and maintaining a stable base for each.

Train as a mugger does? This makes little sense to me, period. What do you do, have someone get into a car and then walk up to them with a knife and stab them or shoot them for your training? No.. you still go face to face when you train... very much  unlike a mugger. Do you wait in alley's and practice attacking one weak person coordinating the attack with your cronies? No! Your techniques are designed to BEAT this tactics, not to use those tactics. 

You also have to realize that there is a difference between Martial Arts and Martial Sports. There are some classes of all styles that teach for sport/hobby and there are some classes of all styles that teach/focus on self defense. I teach for self defense and so I do my best to teach about all aspects of fighting and I constantly learn new things to match the ever changing world. That is what any good martial artist does. I use full contact fighting and heavy bag training, grappling, knife and gun defense. I personally carry on me at least 3 knives (one visible to act as a deterrant, one in my back pocket where my wallet might be so I can get to without being seen and one around my forearm that I can get to if told to raise my hands <I  put them behind my head and draw the knife while my hands are concealed.> And I normally have them in other places so in case someone who intends on jumping me reads this they'll never know where they all are.
I am very serious about what I do. I've survived knife fights and other fights against multiple armed assailants or just multiple assailants. Well, perhaps that is all a dream too.


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## asoka (May 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Turner _
> 
> *Perhaps my live-in experience in a Kyokushin-Kai Karate <similar to kickboxing/muy thai> or my other 16 years of experience in Jujitsu, various forms of Karate, street-fighting and Kenpo were all dreams where the physics and laws of gravity were different; but dang.. I can't see how you kick with both legs without being able to fly. In my dream world I gotta be at least on one leg in order to kick and as I am lifting my leg I will ever so briefly be in a cat stance <if using a front leg kick> and in a longer period of time be in a one-legged stance <crane stance when the leg is chambered and rechambered> as I am doing ANY type of kick.
> 
> ...



I never said anything about kicking with both legs at once,we don't believe in useless jump kicks in the air.We do kick with one leg at a time but not using stuff like cat stance.It is possible to be on one leg and execute a front kick without being in cat stance.
Have you ever seen a muay thai fighter go in cat stance?Of course not,and if you have it is only because the art being taught was combined with karate,tae kwon do or some other traditional asian art.

One thing I do agree on with you is that different things work for different people,but you got to be reasonable too,there is no way a karate stance would work.Maybe it would work against someone who has never been in a street fight before.Even then it's hard to imagine it could in that case as well.

I see where you're coming from about wanting all students wanting to practice their kicks at same time and it makes sense.
In my school,I have people practice on bags and others practice on shields sometimes.Often we just kick and punch each other back and forth even if not sparring,and as drill practice blocking the kicks and punches.Each partner goes back and forth so this way every one is training at same time.

To practice punches like jabs,hooks and uppercuts and bobs,we often use focus mitts,so this way when one hooks the other bobs to avoid the hook.Combinations like jab,cross hook and weave or jab,cross,jab hook and weave and any other combos you can come up with.Focus mitts are a great tool for practicing punches and bobs.

Even with a heavy bag you can practice bobs and imagine someone hitting you and strike back,I know it's not the same as fighting with a partner but at least you'll still be hitting something,which can increase technique, focurs, speed, power, and stamina.Another good tool for any martial arts school are the BOB (type of bag in shape of a human)great for practicing hitting specific parts of the body like ribbs and head when practicing hooks or upper cut to chin.I use the BOB for punches,hand strikes,and knees and for practicing hitting from different angles and moving with proper boxing foot work.

When not teaching I practice on friends,sometimes I'll learn something new,by doing something I didn't mean to do,but still worked.Many of my friends know martial arts anyways.I have a friend I kept from when I trained and taught karate and show him new stuff sometimes.

I also have a friend who has no experience in martial arts but used to be a big time brawler and has worked as a bouncer before in various clubs,who I also taught some stuff to,and even he was amazed with what I know and I can do to take him who is alot bigger then me.He's 260lbs,and I'm only 180lbs.Being a brawler he only knows how to hit and fight hard and dirty,however he doesn't know any techniqual moves whether stand up or grappling.Infact he'd lose a fight on the ground.

No of course we don't get into a car,stab or shoot some one,and no we don't wait in dark alley's in order to practice,would be an interesting concept though,don't you think? LOL.

We however can imagine what it would be like to be mugged or to get into a fight especially when people like me,and apparently you, have been in real fights before and so knows what happens.

I train students also by having one person grabb another student from behind and they show how they think they'd react and then I help them realize other alternatives,they of course can decide for themselves what works best for them.I teach them stuff that they would never have thought to use,when a person grabs them from behind and help them improve not just techniques but reaction time.When I say grabbing from behind it could be by neck,shoulders and bear hugs etc.

I had a person grab me from behind in a club and had an automatic reaction,and almost snapped the person's arm until I realized it was someone I knew and was just trying to mess around by scaring the **** out of me.I got pissed of at him for doing that,because I don't like being grabbed from behind and get paranoid easily that way.

Seems we agree on a few things,even if you and I do have different opinions about katas and stances.I agree,a true martial arts does learn new things to match the ever changing world,my exact reason for having turned away from katas.I believe in learning,change,and updating knowledge.Katas may have worked years ago,but not now in this day and age.

Anyways we could argue this forever,but I have my opinions and you have yours,both have had different experiences I guess.Whether I agree with everything you say or not,I do respect what you believe and hope you do for me too.

I think since you don't teach katas and realize there are better ways to practice drills,and go full out with kicks as well,you must be a fairly good sensei.Unfortunately you believe in practicing katas on your own though.But once again you have a right to your own opinion and way of training at home.

Well one thing we have in common is we both teach martial arts for self-defense and probably both enjoy what we do.I know I do anyways.

http://homepages.msn.com/SupportSt/asoka8/MartialArts.html


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## sweeper (May 7, 2002)

> First of all for those who don't know what Pankration is,it's a martial arts that combines MuayThai Kickboxing and Submission Wrestling,giving the advantage over most arts because of it's ability to fight both stand up and on ground.


Ok, First from reading your webpage I assume you practice something simular to Jim Arvanitis's pankration. This is kinda important to establish because there are a couple groups that use the name. there is the Pancrace, Matt Hume's Pankration League, etc..
My point is Pankration is a name dating back to an old olympic event that has no real link to today's fighting except in concept (because there has been no one who has practiced it since it was stopped in the roman arenas way back when..) so basicly I assume when you refer to pankration you are refering to any MMA that competes with a combination of upper and lower limb punches in stand up and on the ground includes grappaling and tries to minimise limmiting rules?


> Traditional arts as in the traditional asian arts like karate,tae kwon do,kung fu,and many other arts,can be said to be of no use.


An interesting assumption however I think you probably have just had bad experiences with these arts.. You are reffering to arts as traditional however the qualities you describe them all having have nothing to do with tradition and not all of them seem to hollow any specific tradition (for example TKD is only about 50 years old and already has branched multiple times into diffrent organisations)


> Let me give you my reason as well as 15yrs. experience as a martial artist.
> 
> 1/ Traditional arts teach katas which are pre-arranged forms,with very few effective hidden techniques.Stances in traditional arts would never work in a real situation.


My understanding of the use of multiple stances and the practice of kata is that it is not something that you would practive in a fight. The stances are simply various positions you will find yourself in they are not intended for someone to assume as a base fighting position and I know of know schools that teach them that way (not saying there aren't any out there just that I don't know any.). Kata are also not nessisaraly designed to be used in a fight..  you wouldn't ever go through a set of movements in a real fight it's more to teach you a possible flow for technique to technique. it's a learning tool it's not a weapon.


> 2/ In traditional arts a student is taught to pull back on his/her punches in fear of hurting another student.Infact most students of these styles fight in point sparring instead of full contact or continuous sparring.


An assumption that is not nessisaraly true. All the people I know that practice a traditional style spar full contact at leaste some times, the put one padds and head gear and have at it.


> 3/ The forms done in Traditional Asian Arts puts limits on students,instead of them being able to put themselves in the shoes of a real fighter.The forms are no doubt great for concentration,balance,focus,and co-ordination as a true martial artist needs,however there are better ways to train in this.These forms are useless for actual self-defense.Very few techniques would work.


Forms are for training..  if you fought an opponant the way you would throw out combos on a heavy bag without addapting to your opponant's actions you would also get your *** kicked. Stating that you couldn't use a form in a fight is like stating that you couldn't throw a Thai Boxing 18 count(any) against a fighter in a MMA competition without them reacting and forcing you to change your tactic.


> 4/ Katas give students a false belief that ,by repetition of these forms their fighting ability will improve,giving them a better chance of being able to defend themselves,when infact it could be making things worse by doing the exact opposite.It doesn't properly prepare you for an attack since forms are usually done going across the floor ,looking through a mirror.


The only time Kata will give a student false hope is when they are told that by implemeting the kata in a self deffence situation they can protect themselves. as far as practicing in front of a mirror. They practice in front of a mirror for the same reason a boxer shadow boxes in front of a mirror, to improve form.


> 5/ Students and those who teach these asian arts don't realize to beat a fighter you have to put yourself in their shoes.In other words to be a fighter you must train like one.Do you honestly think some attacker is going to come at you in fancy stance,making it easy for you to kick his ***?Hell no.If a mugger was going to make it easy there would be no point in learning self-defense.


To  beat a fighter you must understand how a fighter trains/fights and you must practice against someone fighting like that, but you don't have to train like one. And as far as teachers of asian arts not understanding that..  Another assumption that doesn't nessisaraly have a bassis in fact, only in your experience.


> 6/ Most instructors of these asian arts don't even know the bunkai to the katas they teach,they just know how to do the forms in itself.They teach it the way they were taught,and expect you to listen and learn without being questioned about it.
> If you're going to pay to learn something shouldn't you have the right to question what you are learning and expect to know how to apply what you learn? Hell ya.


Again it sounds like you have had a bad instrutor. If your instructor doesn't know what he's doing he can't teach however that doesn't reflect on his art but rather is ability and his lineage (whoever certified him shouldn't have). As far as questioning. Not accepting questions is BS unless a stupent is obviously dirupting class all questions are usualy relevant but also I think that is a factor of the instructor being a not so good instrutor rather than all traditional arts being inferior.



> In Pankration,an instructor expects to be questioned and is prepared to answer and knows how to apply what he/she is teaching.


So do most instructors of anything be it mathematics or TCMA


> Pankration doesn't rely on pre-arranged techniques moving across the floor.


Neither do traditional arts. Just cause you use something to train doesn't mean you rely on it


> In Pankration we are taught moves that are both shown and applied on a partner.Every technique involves the use of another person,never done on its own.We are taught the moves in several ways but are also taught those exact techniques may be applied in many other ways,not just limited to ways taught in class.


I would say solo training has it's merit. You hit a heavy bag to practice getting power, you shadow box in the mirror to practice form and combinations and to experiment. They both have their place in training.


> In Pankration we don't have any fancy,but useless stances like sanchin,shicko dachi etc.we only have left and right fighting stance.


There are optimum stance fore doing diffrent things. Fighting in kicking range i diffrent than fighting in boxing range and that's diffrent than grappaling. if you try to grappal in a kickboxing stance you are gona get your *** kicked (well taken down at leaste) if you assume a grappaler's stance and try to fight in kicking range against someone kicking you are also gona get your *** kicked. You have to be able to change your footing depending on the situation and be able to work out of a bad stance that your opponant forced you into.


> In Pankration we also are not taught to pull back on punches and kicks unlike in Traditional Asian Arts.With Pankration everything is straight to the point and full contact.


Not to flame but you guys either are hitting with low poer or have alot of injuries. Most boxers do not train regularly at full power, nor do thai boxers.. The reason is simple, there are alot of injuries that occure because of that. Besides the typical brain dammage from repeated concution you risk all kinds of long term injuries as well as short term injuries from excessive physical trauma


> Also in Pankration we try to visualize ourself in the shoes of a fighter,and try to think like one,we also realize to beat a fighter you must train like one.


most traditional arts do something like this. For example training two or three on one or having you spar against someone holding a training knife.


> All our techniques are also applications no beating around the bush.


ok there are some things you just can't practice, the dirty stuff like eye gauges strikes to the throught and shots to the groin as well as things like pinching and small joint submission. I mean you can practice them but you can't spar with them your you end up with alot of serious injuries.


> This is the difference between Pankration and Traditional Asian Arts.
> 
> Arts like Pankration,Savate,Shootfighting,Judo(despite being an asian art from japan),Jujitsu among many others are the true arts of self-defense.


You still haven't deffined traditional. And I think I gave pritty good responces to your arguments against traditional arts.

The question now arises, "how effective is pankration in self deffence?"
Where I live (in western washington state) no one mugs you with their bare fists..  just doesn't happen (all right I'm sure it happens but so little you never hear about it) and I know throughout most of the US and Canada there aren't many bare fist muggings of a single attacker. unles the attacker is attacking someone that apears ALOT weaker than them (like a little old lady for example) otherwise they attack in one of the following situations

1:has a wepon
2:has freinds(multiple attackers)
3:has freinds with weapons

So if you are training for self deffence are you traing for these situations? single opponant with weapon, multiple without, multpile with? Hitting a pad doesn't do much to prepare you for a real knife fight neither does practicing arm bars. And fighting in the ring doesn't prepare you for a street fight with multiple opponants.

Bottom line is if you get into a street fight you are !%&*ed. Yeah you may survive and you may get out but you are playing with your life on the line (most likely) most self deffence situations ossure because of low situational awareness or because of the deffenders ego. If you realy want to deffend yourself buy a gun. If you can't get a gun because of laws than get a knife or get whatever you can get and carey legaly than train to use it. there are very few times when you are in capable of drawing a weapon the only time is a supprise and the only time you should be supprised is when you aren't pying attention to your surroundings..  look out for good ambush areas. if a street light is out don't go under it..  if there is an ally opening comming up walk on the far side of the side walk from it and keep your hand on your weapon. As for people's ego..  Never stay and fight when you can run. Doesn't matter how much you think you can beat the person unless there is an honest nead to fight (deffending someone who is incapable of running) you should get out of a combat situation as fast as posibal.

Pankration is and always has been a ring sport. It means "game of all powers" it was a sporting event in ancient olympic games as well as roman gladiatorial arenas. It has never been an art of self deffence and it never has envolved weapon use. Now I'm not saying it's bad. fighting full force in a NHB competition and training to fight like that is a real advantage and deffenatly teaches you about fighting and deffenatly toughens you up. But it deffenatly doesn't help you fight against weapons or multiple attackers and both of those are more important than 1 on 1. also it doesn't train you to fight or deffend against dirty tactics and doesn't properly train you for a street fight because you don't genneraly fight in clothing you wear on the street, most ring fights are bareback with no shoes, this limits how your opponant can attack you and how you are used to attacking.

There are genneraly pros and cons to any method of training..  there is just so much out there it's near imposible to train to your fullest potential without quiting your job and devoting 16 hours a day to research and practice of martial art.


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## Turner (May 8, 2002)

> there is just so much out there it's near imposible to train to your fullest potential without quiting your job and devoting 16 hours a day to research and practice of martial art.



<drooling> someday I'll be able to do that again....


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## asoka (May 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by sweeper _
> 
> *
> You still haven't deffined traditional. And I think I gave pritty good responces to your arguments against traditional arts.
> ...




Well there might not be many unarmed fist fights or 1 on 1 fights in U.S,but here you are wrong,because in Canada there are still lots of 1 on 1 fights and unarmed fights.The problem is we hear so much about teens constantly with multiple attackers and stabbings as well as shootings,that many people assume it is always like that and with everyone,but the fact is it is mostly among children and teens,when there is more then one or knives and guns are involved.Not to say it never happens with adults,but it happens more so with youngsters.

Most stabbings are due to teens acting tough in front of their friends and friends backing each other up.I'm talking about regular fights not some psychotic rapist ,serial killer or petophile.

Pankration only means "All Powers" not game of all powers.

I'm glad you know your history of Pankration though.However you do still have some limited knowledge about Pankration.Pankration is a sport plus more infact it is an art of self-defense or street-defense,so in that case you are absolutely wrong when you say it isn't.It will save someones *** on the street alot more,and quicker then any traditional asian art like karate.

You're right we don't learn to fight against multiple attackers or weapons,but chances of having to is rare anyways.However it still would be nice to.I do know some knife defense and okinawan weaponry from doing Goju Ryu Karate.

You may learn to fight multiple attackers on street in stuff like karate,but when it comes down to reality it would never work.
In most cases where it is for example 5 on 1,most people would basically "**** their pants" before even thinking of defending themselves,despite amount of training in martial arts.An automatic reaction by human nature would be to be scared or threatened by that many attackers.I don't care how hard you train for multiple attackers when it comes to reality,chances are you'll hesitate do to anything and at same time get your *** kicked unless you're some kind of Bruce Lee or Jet Li.

When you train to protect yourself or others against multiple attackers,which most arts don't really teach as they claim to anyways,the students don't all come at one of the students with full force or with each  holding knives,therefore the teachings of defending against multiple attackers can be very missleading and useless.Chances are if you try to use what you learn against several assailants on the street,you're going to end up dead or at least in the hospital.

People like to act tough and say they're not scared to fight more then 2 guys at the same time but in reality they know deep down inside of them the chances of them being able to is slim.One in a million people would actually be able to kick *** when ganged up by alot of people unlessthey have their friends with them too,
but then that's more a brawl then anything.Also if confronted by a group of people chances are each one of them has either a knife or gun,even knife defense or gun defense won't do anything against more then one person with a knife,or gun but may help one on one.

No art will save your *** against multiple fighters especially ones with weapons,so it's crazy to even bring that up.If you win a fight against multiple attackers it's most probably because you're strong and quick by  nature and very intimdating against your attackers due to size.

Size means **** to someone who is trained in self-defense,but one who isn't will probably be threatened by it.

Against several attackers you're going to lose,whether  you're 200lbs of plain muscle and your attackers are 200lbs of fat.

So don't even bother bringing up the multiple attack stuff and using it with arm bars not working,since no technique will work against multiple attackers,unless you also have friends or are extremely well trained in weapons(which most aren't)or been in army before and used to fighting against several people at time of war.

Traditional weapons will do **** on the street except for maybe the bo,since a piece of wood lieing on ground can be used in same way against a knife.

I'd like to see you try using your multiple attack self-defense techniques against a bunch of Canada's Hells Angels or the Italian Mafia.You'd be toast.They'd kill you before you have the chance to do anything to them.

Nothing really ever prepares you a 100% for a real fight ,whether pad,ring fights and arm bars or not,but your chances of defending yourself are higher when you know self-defense,but not guaranteed of course.Life has no guarantees,however learning katas doesn't even come close to preparing you for a real life situation even if it's only one on one.

I know arm bars won't work on more then one person at a time,but I never said it would.Just as I never said ring fights would either.Ring fights are the closest you can come to fighting in an one on one fight obviously not multiple attackers,but Traditional asian arts definitely won't help you against multiple attackers either,not even one on one.

I believe you said earlier Thai boxers don't train full out all the time,because of brain damage and injuries!!!!!!!!!! Now that's definitely  not true.We train full out each class.

I believe you also said we don't use stuff like joint locks in our sparring,now I really have to laugh,actually it is the opposite ,in my school students fight from stand up (muaythai)and take opponent to ground and grapple from there.Sometimes they grapple from stand up position too and when we take person to ground in a match we use submissions.

For example: if I knee you in the chest and you bend forward I may flip or throw you to ground get into mount position and do an arm bar.We always do submissions in our Pankration fights ,however we don't use submissions if we're only sparring muay thai.Yes people do get hurt,but with or without submissions someone can still get hurt.Never seen a busted arm in our tournaments yet(person taps out),but I have seen broken noses and pulled ankles,hyper extented knee caps and people get knocked out unconcious.Accidents happen in all sports or martial arts though.

Our fights are usually won either by submission or knockout,so it is stupid and ignorant to say we don't use our submissions in tournaments,we even use chokes.

Our style and others similar to it are the closest you can get to a real fight.

If you like the art you're in though,well then stick to it and good for you.Hope the best for you in whatever art you do or chose to do.


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## Damian Mavis (May 8, 2002)

Crikey

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## sweeper (May 8, 2002)

> Well there might not be many unarmed fist fights or 1 on 1 fights in U.S,but here you are wrong,because in Canada there are still lots of 1 on 1 fights and unarmed fights.


Fights or muggings? There is a diffrence, I said there aren't many unarmed 1 on 1 muggings and to the best of my knowledge there aren't (I don't recall my sources off hand though and it may take me a little bit to dig up the info) I'm not simply refering to a fight 1 on 1 I'm talking about a situation where there is little escalation, a suprise attack 1 on 1 where you have no choice but to fight. most any other situation you can run away if not walk away.


> Pankration only means "All Powers" not game of all powers.


Well it doesn't truly mean "game of all powers" but it certainly doesn't mean "all powers" Pan=all krat=strength the ion suffex makes it refer to some sorta action, the ussage though was either "all powers competition" or "all powers excercise" so on a basic level it was a game. Also it only exsisted as a sport it wasn't widely used on battle fields (that we know of) however limited period records do limit our knowledge of the art. However we do know it did evolve from two 1 on 1 sports, wrestling and boxing and was sorta the best of both worlds (sorta like how the UFC marketed it's self early on)


> Pankration is a sport plus more infact it is an art of self-defense or street-defense,so in that case you are absolutely wrong when you say it isn't.


well the name pankration as I statd above wasn't a refference to self deffence or street deffence, if what you practice involves those aspects that's great, however that changes the thred from "pankration vs traditional MA" to something more along the lines of "<your style of pankration> vs traditional MA" a suttle diffrence but a big one as most fighters who say they practice pancration or practice an art with a derivative name of pankration do not specificly include street combat as a part of that training (that is to say if you go to an instructor who teaches "pankration" odds are you will be learning a form of NHB fighting)


> It will save someones *** on the street alot more,and quicker then any traditional asian art like karate.


that's an opinion and I think it's one based on concieved views of a traditional martial art based on limited and/or bad experience. what makes a pankration fighter good isn't the tecnique or any special tactic in fighting but rather the training. alot of so called traditional schools have very lax training however this has little to do with tradition, that is to say traditionaly east asian martialartists traind very hard, the lack of training in north america is more due to the instructors and the student base, mot people don't wana work out as hard and so the instructors don't push and/or the instructor practiced ion a school where people didn't wana work hard and doesn't push his students, but once again that has nothing to do with the style.


> You're right we don't learn to fight against multiple attackers or weapons,but chances of having to is rare anyways


the chances of having to fight are rare period. you have a far greater chace of getting hit by a car or dying in a car accident than you do of getting bludgeoned to death. most situations where an attacker doesn't have a wepon you can get out of, there is no reason to fight. if you go into a fight because you want to that's something totaly diffrent, it's not deffence that's agretion but it's pritty rare that you can't escape a 1 on 1.


> You may learn to fight multiple attackers on street in stuff like karate,but when it comes down to reality it would never work.
> In most cases where it is for example 5 on 1,most people would basically "**** their pants" before even thinking of defending themselves,despite amount of training in martial arts.An automatic reaction by human nature would be to be scared or threatened by that many attackers.I don't care how hard you train for multiple attackers when it comes to reality,chances are you'll hesitate do to anything and at same time get your *** kicked unless you're some kind of Bruce Lee or Jet Li.


I think this is an opinion, I havn't seen any evidance that a martial artist will freeze when fighting multiple attackers or a wepon wielding foe. sometimes people freeze when they get hit with a knife, but not simply freeze when facing attackers. Now I can't speak from experience because I have never been attacked like that, however I do know people who have, people with absolutly no martial arts training and they did fight and they did get out. The object isn't to beat down 5 guys, it's to survive, if you feint at one, bob under a punch and sprint off than you won, you lived. That's is what I mean, I'm not suggesting that a martial artist can fight large groups and defeat every last one. the way you fight groups is you move around and you keep distance, your object is to prevent them from circling you. Additionaly, most of the time when people "rat pack" it is because they feal they can't take someone one on one or two on one, that is usualy because they are small or lack fighting ability, this genneraly translates into an advantage for you, it means you have a better chance of survivng a 1 on 1 encounter, so the object is to get in fast hit him and move, you want to cause serious dammage fast for psychological advantage. granted every situation is diffrent, I see know reason why someone could not train to avoid death or serious injury fighting multiple opponants.


> When you train to protect yourself or others against multiple attackers,which most arts don't really teach as they claim to anyways,the students don't all come at one of the students with full force or with each holding knives,therefore the teachings of defending against multiple attackers can be very missleading and useless.Chances are if you try to use what you learn against several assailants on the street,you're going to end up dead or at least in the hospital.


that's another assumption that isn't nessisaraly true, some schools don't but if you are training for self deffence and weapons and/or multiple attackers are a posability in your neck of the woods than I would say you probably should. You probably wouldn't start students off training full force and you probably wouldn't do it too often to avoid injury. I would suggest you train more specific to a senario, for example it's 1 on 3 you have to get from your starting location to a door, give those 3 a good 30 seconds to plan their attack strategy just so they are all on the same page (a group of attackers probably will know their roles) and than let them go at it. Also don't train unarmed against weapons unless you don't cary a weapon, and if you don't cary a weapon than ddo train unarmed and you will see that against even a single attacker your chances of surviving a fight with an armed opponant are slim (even if you survive you probably got hit). in my opinion anyone serious about deffence should use the best weapon legaly available.


> People like to act tough and say they're not scared to fight more then 2 guys at the same time but in reality they know deep down inside of them the chances of them being able to is slim.One in a million people would actually be able to kick *** when ganged up by alot of people unlessthey have their friends with them too,
> but then that's more a brawl then anything.Also if confronted by a group of people chances are each one of them has either a knife or gun,even knife defense or gun defense won't do anything against more then one person with a knife,or gun but may help one on one.


I agree with the first part and people have to be honest about their ability.
gun deffence in my opinion is 99% luck..  it works when the gun misfires or the perosn turns their head. knife deffence when you are un armed is also alot of luck, I can deffenatly disarm a knife if the attacker gives my a nice telegraphed long range thrust (a feed) but in actual combat situations only someone who knew abolutly nothing about blade combat (or maybe someone mimicking a bad movie) would do that. in a knife fight you are gona get cut, unless they have a REALY dull knife you are probably gona get a bad cut. So cary a weapon that gives you range. And knife deffence (when you are armed) will help against multiple knife wielding attackers if you train to deffend against them)


> No art will save your *** against multiple fighters especially ones with weapons,so it's crazy to even bring that up.If you win a fight against multiple attackers it's most probably because you're strong and quick by nature and very intimdating against your attackers due to size.


Why? I see no reason why "no art could save your *** against multiple fighters" as far as intimidation goes, odds are if you are intimidating they won't attack you. as far as strength and speed go, you can train for both.


> Against several attackers you're going to lose,whether you're 200lbs of plain muscle and your attackers are 200lbs of fat.


why would you lose?


> Traditional weapons will do **** on the street except for maybe the bo,since a piece of wood lieing on ground can be used in same way against a knife.


again why? if you are good with a weapon that can be used to fight common street weapons (clubs and knives) and you cary the wepon wether it's a tonfa or a small sword, why won't it help? I personaly think it would and see absolutly no reason why it wouldn't.


> I'd like to see you try using your multiple attack self-defense techniques against a bunch of Canada's Hells Angels or the Italian Mafia.You'd be toast.They'd kill you before you have the chance to do anything to them.


I would have to resort to the good old american traditional self deffence...  "Use a gun" ;-)
unfortunatly they probably use guns too *L* well if I got the drop on em I could take out one or two at leaste.


> Nothing really ever prepares you a 100% for a real fight ,whether pad,ring fights and arm bars or not,but your chances of defending yourself are higher when you know self-defense,but not guaranteed of course.Life has no guarantees,however learning katas doesn't even come close to preparing you for a real life situation even if it's only one on one.


I agree 100% but I would also say hitting a bag doens't prepare you, neither does lifting weights, kata is just a training tool like any other it is not an end only a means.


> I know arm bars won't work on more then one person at a time,but I never said it would.Just as I never said ring fights would either.Ring fights are the closest you can come to fighting in an one on one fight obviously not multiple attackers,but Traditional asian arts definitely won't help you against multiple attackers either,not even one on one.


Well that also deppends on how you apply it, if you get a standing armbar you can hyper extend the arm, if you take some one down than get an armbar you can do the same or cause serious tissue dammage, basicly you can take out an arm with an arm bar, you gota apply it realy fast and have a snap to it kinda like a snap in a punch (catch em off guard) when you do it like that it doens't take long at all and you just severly limited 1 opponant or you took him out of the fight, also a standing arm bar can be used to manipulate your opponants position and as such can help your relative position for tactical purposes. As far as your statement about traditional arts..  traditional arts without competition are usualy not traditional arts, that is to say most traditional arts only did away with combat in the last hundred or so years, you either sparred, got challenges, or had real combat experience. So basicly what I'm saying is it's a lack of realistic sparring (and perhaps conditioning) that is a result of any defficet in skill between a modern and traditional style and it only truely applies to schools who have broken with tradition.


> I believe you said earlier Thai boxers don't train full out all the time,because of brain damage and injuries!!!!!!!!!! Now that's definitely not true.We train full out each class.


Full contact as in you hit hard or full contact as in you treat it like a sanctioned match and go for a KO ? and what I said was 





> Most boxers do not train regularly at full power, nor do thai boxers.


Because most don't. I said most not all. And as far as injuries you guys have ghot to have ALOT. Full contact = lots of knock outs, that's REALY dangerious...


> I believe you also said we don't use stuff like joint locks in our sparring,now I really have to laugh,actually it is the opposite ,in my school students fight from stand up (muaythai)and take opponent to ground and grapple from there.Sometimes they grapple from stand up position too and when we take person to ground in a match we use submissions.


I didn't say that, closest thing I said was arm bars won't work on someone holding a knife. I am well aware of the grappaling content of pankration schools, I mean it would be kinda weird having a school not teach grappaling when pankration was formed as a combo of grecko wrestling and boxing.


> For example: if I knee you in the chest and you bend forward I may flip or throw you to ground get into mount position and do an arm bar.We always do submissions in our Pankration fights ,however we don't use submissions if we're only sparring muay thai.Yes people do get hurt,but with or without submissions someone can still get hurt.Never seen a busted arm in our tournaments yet(person taps out),but I have seen broken noses and pulled ankles,hyper extented knee caps and people get knocked out unconcious.Accidents happen in all sports or martial arts though.


Well what I meant about sport not being the same as street fighting was the limitations in sport can have an effect of teching people not to deffend themselves enough. to give an example of what I mean I will use one of my freinds as an example, He had some experience in judo, sport judo(all they did was train for sport it wasn't a martial art school) he only trained for about a year so he never passed white belt but he was somewhat adept at grappaling and has an advantage over me (and also prefers the range where as I prefer to kick) now when we spar some times I shoot in on him, he doesn't sprall much but he tends to try to catch me in a guiatten(sp) choke the problem is 1: I'm kinda hard to choke out by constricting blood flow, I don't know why I just am, and that choke is one that cuts your air before your blood so it takes longer, unless you are realy strong it's hard to take someone out in 3 seconds. now this puts him in an advantagious position in sparring however that is only because I genneraly don't punch him in the groin (for safety reasons) now when I do deside to give him an uppper cut he drops like a stone. (few guys train to take that kinda blow ;-)) my point is becase of sport training in which people don't throw attacks to the groin and because in sparring we are wearing a cup and even than we don't attack the groin he did something that wasn't the brightest (since we train for self deffence and not sport there is nothing gained by beating someone with a method that can only work in sparring. Simularly when we are sparing he neglects to deffend against punches in a ground fight as well is eye gauges in grappaling, this is obviously not so good. now I know you guys most likely hit each other on the ground so that isn't an issue, and I'm not saying you guys fall into any of the traps my freind did. I simply am trying to illustrate the kinda problems that can evolve from sports fighting, most of the time you won't know you have a given weakness untill someone points it out to you. Now I know what you are probably thinking, the full contact fights of a ring are about the most realistic safe place to practice and it is better to be good with some basic techniques than to be average with those same technique and have a few dirty tricks. My responce is why can't you use sparring geared twards street deffence effectivly? if you pad up and go at each other full force or near full force in strewet like situations, and include some dirty stuff like groin kicking/punching won't you be better in a street fight? This of course assumes that you train like a fighter, you train hard and realisticly..  And no I'm not saying kata are the key to this just that it isn't beond the scope of traditional arts.


> Our fights are usually won either by submission or knockout,so it is stupid and ignorant to say we don't use our submissions in tournaments,we even use chokes.


No comment already adressed this


> Our style and others similar to it are the closest you can get to a real fight.


I think the closest you could get is if you wore some kinda of shoe (like sevat)  because use shoes to fight is very diffrent than fighting without shoes (thai boxing) both toe strikes and heal strikes become much more valuable.


> If you like the art you're in though,well then stick to it and good for you.Hope the best for you in whatever art you do or chose to do.


Right back at you.


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## Ty K. Doe (May 10, 2002)

OH - MY - GOSH!  This sounds like the greatest thing since sliced bread.  I am going to completely give up everything else I'm learning and become the greatest pankration fighter ever.  I will train 18 hours a day and no one will be able to beat me.  Better than that, once I begin to learn pankration no one can ever accuse me of being in a McDojo.  I will automatically become unbeatable because my ego will sooo big, so you can throw that whole boxing thread out the window.


*FYI*
http://pankration.com/pankration_history.html 



:redeme: 

:drink2tha :barf: :moon: :moon: :moon:


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## sweeper (May 10, 2002)

*L* well for pankration schools that compete it's hard to be a McDojo just cause when you are entering your best fighters in MMA competitions there are usualy reviews if not visual footage of the events so you can tell how their fighters fight.

You should never train 18 hours a day because i doesn't leave enough sleep time o recouperate. 

And that link you listed is actualy to a diffrent club than Asoka is from.

And as to Pankration being "good" it all depends on your instructor and how you train. The name means nothing, you could change it with anything, basicly Pankration is a Mixed Martial Art. If you want to learn any mixed martial art it should be very easy to assess how well your instructor trains fighters because fights are genneraly recorded..  If you just want to learn self deffence, than that's alot harder to find a good instructor.

But Ty, as far as your sarcasm goes, it doesn't add to the conversation, everyone knows you think his perspective is flawed. So I would ask that to prevent this thred from deteriorating into a series of meaningless yet contradictory posts between two people of diffrent opinion, you would be so kinda as to post a more articulate version of your view of the issue rather than something along the line of your last post.

BTW cool .gif


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## Kirk (May 10, 2002)

Personally Ty, I found your sarcasm both entertaining and 
refreshing.  Asoka, wasn't pleasant at all with his "My art is
the supreme art and every other art sucks" attitude either.
It was a general insult to a LARGE number of people who are
members of this forum.  Although he didn't directly insult anyone,
he didn't come across as a peace loving guy either.  I question
his motive here.  That's like a member of the KKK going and
spouting their rhetoric at an NAACP meeting.  Then going "well
I didn't mean to insult anyone."


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## sweeper (May 10, 2002)

Well what I mean is nothing realy has been said so far, Asoka hasn't given a deffinition of what he considers a traditional art, he also hasn't supported his reasoning it's just "tradition=bad" "pankration=good" I just want to know why he thinks that.


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## Chiduce (May 10, 2002)

:asian:  Ami Tou Fou. Mr. Asoka is i may ask sir. How many times in your 15 years of experience in the martial arts have you been, almost choked to death; been held hostage by thugs from the streets; had a 45, 357, 9mm pointed in your face and/or at your head; been shot at from a distance; been sucker punched and temporarily knocked out to recover with the attacker standing over you; awakened from you sleep to have a stranger looking down on you ready to attack you in your sleep; had at least 5 street thugs attemp to attack you a once or 2 at a time; been awakened by an attacker choking you; been attacked to the head by a large glass object by practicing drug addicts; been set-up to be robbed by another person either male or female or both and finally ever at least maimed an attacker using your system? Yes, i have done and been through each one of these scenerio's and a bit more within my 24 years of martial studies. Each time my martial arts( kung fu, karate, kenpo, karatejutsu) whether traditional or not kept me alive and in most cases unharmed. Just wanted to know about your life experiences with this in your style! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


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## Jay Bell (May 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by asoka _
> 
> *First of all for those who don't know what Pankration is,it's a martial arts that combines MuayThai Kickboxing and Submission Wrestling,giving the advantage over most arts because of it's ability to fight both stand up and on ground.*



You have been misinformed.  Traditional arts rarely do not cover both areas of combat.



> *Traditional arts as in the traditional asian arts like karate,tae kwon do,kung fu,and many other arts,can be said to be of no use.*



Yes, it can be said....by someone who has no idea of what they are talking about.



> *Let me give you my reason as well as  15yrs. experience as a martial artist.*



Oh boy *grabs some popcorn*



> *1/ Traditional arts teach katas which are pre-arranged forms,with very few effective hidden techniques.Stances in traditional arts would never work in a real situation.*



No.  Kata typically do one of two things.  They either teach how to move your body in that perticular style, or they teach you strategy of fundamentals.  Piecing those fundamentals together and give insights on how they can be broadened and worked upon.



> *2/ In traditional arts a student is taught to pull back on his/her punches in fear of hurting another student.Infact most students of these styles fight in point sparring instead of full contact or continuous sparring.*



Not in any traditional art that I've ever studied.



> *3/ The forms done in Traditional Asian Arts puts limits on students,instead of them being able to put themselves in the shoes of a real fighter.The forms are no doubt great for concentration,balance,focus,and co-ordination as a true martial artist needs,however there are better ways to train in this.These forms are useless for actual self-defense.Very few techniques would work.*



No, see above.  It doesn't set limits on students, it expands their concepts and methods to be able to work as a whole. 

Shu Ha Ri is a concept in Japanese Budo training.  Perfection of the technique is learned.  Then the technique is changed and opened up....the boundries are destroyed and it's changed into every circumstance imaginable.  After this is achieved, the technique is thrown away.  It's interesting how that doesn't sound at all like the "traditional" in which you are referring.



> *4/ Katas give students a false belief that ,by repetition of these forms their fighting ability will improve,giving them a better chance of being able to defend themselves,when infact it could be making things worse by doing the exact opposite.It doesn't properly prepare you for an attack since forms are usually done going across the floor ,looking through a mirror.*



Not what-so-ever.  It's not a false belief that it's giving some type of ability beyond what the kata/waza is explaining.  



> *5/ Students and those who teach these asian arts don't realize to beat a fighter you have to put yourself in their shoes.In other words to be a fighter you must train like one.Do you honestly think some attacker is going to come at you in fancy stance,making it easy for you to kick his ***?Hell no.If a mugger was going to make it easy there would be no point in learning self-defense.*



Where do you come up with this information?  Combat doesn't occur when things are fair.  I'm curious in to what "traditional" arts you are basing these ideas.



> *6/ Most instructors of these asian arts don't even know the bunkai to the katas they teach,they just know how to do the forms in itself.They teach it the way they were taught,and expect you to listen and learn without being questioned about it.
> If you're going to pay to learn something shouldn't you have the right to question what you are learning and expect to know how to apply what you learn? Hell ya.*



The only thing I've ever learned in traditional arts beyond fundamentals was bunkai.



> *In Pankration,an instructor expects to be questioned and is prepared to answer and knows how to apply what he/she is teaching.*



Oh, you mean like in traditional martial arts?



> *Pankration doesn't rely on pre-arranged techniques moving across the floor.*



And neither do traditional martial arts.



> *In Pankration we are taught moves that are both shown and applied on a partner.Every technique involves the use of another person,never done on its own.We are taught the moves in several ways but are also taught those exact techniques may be applied in many other ways,not just limited to ways taught in class.*



Wow...just like traditional martial arts.



> *In Pankration we don't have any fancy,but useless stances like sanchin,shicko dachi etc.we only have left and right fighting stance.*



If you label such things as useless, then your understanding of the purpose of those kata aren't there.  I'm not a karate-ka, nor do I pretend to be.  Yet seeing Sanchin done I can see the purposes behind it.  It's tragic that you spent so much time studying an art and left with such little understanding of it.



> *In Pankration we also are not taught to pull back on punches and kicks unlike in Traditional Asian Arts.With Pankration everything is straight to the point and full contact.*



And I'm sure over-commited and un-controlled as well.  However, we don't pull strikes in training either.



> *This is the difference between Pankration and Traditional Asian Arts.*



Thank you for taking the time of your post to guess and make false assumptions based on your very limited and uneducated understanding.  It was a good read...and rather entertaining.  How about next time you don't base such broad judgements off of three years of watered down Karate study at the Local YMCA?

You have yourself a good day...

Jay


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## Klondike93 (May 10, 2002)

Prehaps he went to the McDojo carbon refered to in his thread 

http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1943




:asian:


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## disciple (May 11, 2002)

To Asoka:

15 yrs of experience in "traditional asian martial arts" is not enough for you to say those things. If and only if you have really learned and mastered ALL "traditional asian martial arts" and still found them useless, then you could say your misperspectives of asian martial arts. Of course that would be impossible to achieve in this life  maybe after several reincarnations  

salute

:asian:


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## asoka (May 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by sweeper _
> 
> *Well what I mean is nothing realy has been said so far, Asoka hasn't given a deffinition of what he considers a traditional art, he also hasn't supported his reasoning it's just "tradition=bad" "pankration=good" I just want to know why he thinks that. *



Once again which I have already explained before but some of you still haven't clued into what I mean by traditional arts.

To me traditional arts is any asian art that sticks to tradition.An art that never changes and always sticks to katas.I believe any art stuck in the old ways because they want to stick to their tradition is traditional arts.Now understand what I mean by traditional arts?


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## asoka (May 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ty K. Doe _
> 
> *OH - MY - GOSH!  This sounds like the greatest thing since sliced bread.  I am going to completely give up everything else I'm learning and become the greatest pankration fighter ever.  I will train 18 hours a day and no one will be able to beat me.  Better than that, once I begin to learn pankration no one can ever accuse me of being in a McDojo.  I will automatically become unbeatable because my ego will sooo big, so you can throw that whole boxing thread out the window.
> 
> ...




You're quite the smart ***.

I've seen that url before.


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## asoka (May 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Jay Bell _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



From what I have seen and experience most schools don't do both forms of combat unless they have been combined with other arts.However in my believe the part that is katas is useless but the rest might be useful.If an art teaches both grappling and stand up ,why even bother with forms?

Now You have Good Day


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## asoka (May 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *Personally Ty, I found your sarcasm both entertaining and
> refreshing.  Asoka, wasn't pleasant at all with his "My art is
> ...



Take what I say anyway you want,all this time I have just been stating my opinion as you and everyone else has,is it my fault you're so sensitive and get insulted so easily?

I have a right to think traditional arts aren't good because of their teaching of katas.

I never once said my art is superior to others,I just stated that is what I like better about it and find it to be more reasonable,you make it sound like I am saying no one should do traditional arts.I never said that even once.By all means don't do what I think is better but what you think is and feel most comfortable with.I also said don't do traditional arts if self-defense is what you're looking for.Traditional arts is just as good as any art,I agree,but it also depends on why you want to do that and expect from an art.That is what I said in my first post I believe.


I have the right as an individual to believe whatever I want based on my martial arts experience,just as you do.If you find it insulting,don't blame me for it.

I don't care if people insult me and my beliefs and don't care what others think about me,but what I do care about is being
compared to a lovely racist group called kkk. First of all I'm not racist and second I couldn't be one of them since they hate dark people and I am dark myself.So don't compare to those ******s especially in a martial arts forum.Want to insult me go ahead just don't compare me to those freaks.


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## asoka (May 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Jay Bell _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



Whatever you say bud,although I disagree with you.You do have the right to believe and to speak your mind as this is what this post is for.

3YRS.of watered karate!!!!!!!! hold on a second,for one I did karate not for three years but for 12yrs.and second it wasn't watered down karate,I rather enjoyed it,I just found something I prefer and find more useful and in my opinion both more effective and realistic.Like I said in MY OPINION.


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## arnisador (May 15, 2002)

Please, keep the discussion polite and respectful.

-Arnisador
-MT Mod-


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## Ty K. Doe (May 15, 2002)

> _ By Asoka_
> You're quite the smart ***.



You are too kind.  



> _By Asoka_
> I never once said my art is superior to others



No I believe this is what you said...

*Asoka:  Traditional arts as in the traditional asian arts like karate,tae kwon do,kung fu,and many other arts,can be said to be of no use. *


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## sweeper (May 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by asoka _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



Ok let me alter m statement somewhat, how about *"You have not given a specific and objective deffinition of a traditional art suitable to be used in the course of a debate on the value of such an art."*

What I mean is no one can realy say "your incorrect" without knowing exactly what you mean. And for the most part you have given fairly broad sweeping examples of traditional arts, subjective statements (like "only asian arts are traditional arts") and have not specified what you mean by discriptions such as "sticks to tradition",  "never changes", and "stuck in the old ways ". 

I would make the statement that for all practical purposes there are *no* arts that have had absolutly no change. All arts have changed, asian or not, it is just a question of how much and in what way.

So let me ask some questions:

*"To me traditional arts is any asian art that sticks to tradition."* What traditions specificly?
*"An art that never changes and always sticks to katas."* No art "never changes" and what do kata have to do with the tradition of an art?
*"I believe any art stuck in the old ways because they want to stick to their tradition is traditional arts."* What are the old ways and how did they become tradition and when did they become tradition?
(this one's out of context but applies)*"Traditional arts as in the traditional asian arts like karate,tae kwon do,kung fu,and many other arts,can be said to be of no use."* All forms of Karate? All forms of Kung Fu? And in what way is Tae Kwon Do traditional.
(also out of context)*"Arts like Pankration,Savate,Shootfighting,Judo(despite being an asian art from japan),Jujitsu among many others are the true arts of self-defense."* All of those with the exception of JuiJitsu are martial arts that have developed from or into sports. What makes them more effective for self deffence than an art that has developed out of a need for self deffence?
Last on the list *"First of all for those who don't know what Pankration is,it's a martial arts that combines MuayThai Kickboxing and Submission Wrestling,giving the advantage over most arts because of it's ability to fight both stand up and on ground."* What makes Mauy Thai and Submision Wrestling non-traditional? I would argue that Mauy Thai is steeped in tradition. And what arts can't apply their fighting system to ground fighting?


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## KumaSan (May 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by sweeper _
> 
> *What makes Mauy Thai and Submision Wrestling non-traditional? I would argue that Mauy Thai is steeped in tradition.*



I'm going to agree wholeheartedly with sweeper on this one. Muay Thai has been around, largely unchanged (not totally unchanged, but largely) for at least a couple of hundred years (2000 by some accounts, considerably less by others, I wasn't there at the start so I can't be sure). These days it's a popular art due to it's effectiveness, but most people just study Muay Thai-like fighting. Without the tradition, the soul of the _art_ is lost.

Just my 2 cents on a subject near and dear to my heart. You may all resume your holy war now.


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## Bod (May 24, 2002)

Congratulations on keeping this thread polite chaps. I think these sort of discussions - one way of doing things versus another - are totally necessary for any martial artist, because it makes us think about the way we train.

One of the wisest/humblest things I've ever heard an instructor say - and you won't hear this sort of thing often - was:

'Think about the deficiencies in the ways we train here, and try to work around them, because every training method has deficiencies.'

Note that whatever your fighting system - which will always be a trade-off in one way or another -  you will also have a training system which also cannot be perfect. A fighting system and a training system are not the same thing.

For instance I currently train in Judo. So I can throw a bit, but my punches need more practice. This is because of my fighting system - Judo has a number of punches but not every possible style and doesn't have huge amounts of theory on punching, and my training system - punches are trained only as kata and not in randori (sparring). Of course there is the flip side - Judo is great for learning to throw while your opponent is wearing clothes (fighting system), and you can practice all of your throwing techniques at full strength (training system).

Now to the point. The great modern versus traditional debate, which I believe this thread is part of, is about both fighting systems and training methods, although the two can easily blur into each other.

Although 'modern' training methods have their (usual obvious) uses don't knock the traditional ones if you don't understand them. For instance the 'Horse stance is useless because you'll get kicked where you really don't wan't to be' argument seems ridiculous to me because many of the forward Judo throw involves some degree of horse stance - Tai Otoshi is the clearest example - and at the point of being thrown your opponent has little chance of kicking you. But the argument also has it's upside. Standing in front of an opponent while in horse stance is foolish at best. You have to have a balanced view of the training methods you use.

Fighting systems similarly have pros and cons. Often what looks like a ridiculous technique against a single opponent who is your match comes into it's own when used against multiple weaker opponents. Most fighting systems claim to deal with 'Reality', but there is no such thing. The real world is constantly shifting and a real situation for someone who has trained in the traditional kung-fu weapon of 'Wooden Bench' - great with a barstool - may be in real trouble if, having just been grabbed from behind he tries to struggle for the nearest park bench. Recognise the uses and limitations of the technique/system you are using.

Every fight experience I have ever had - win or lose - has taught me that what I thought was reality yesterday was not neccessarily real today.


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## arnisador (May 26, 2002)

I especially liked, and will use, this:



> 'Think about the deficiencies in the ways we train here, and try to work around them, because every training method has deficiencies.'


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## J-kid (Sep 2, 2002)

I THINK THAT.....

It really all depends some things in martial arts where designed for deffrint times,  And another place.  For instance i dont really think much of katas there not for everyone,  But they are used in asia because there is not much room,  And i sorta see what you mean,  Your pankration or what not,  Its only because your art conbines alot of arts that it is so good.  you might be able to kick a tdk person *** because you can do grappleing and alot of hand striking in close making it hard to use tdk since its mostly kicks.  Its kind of like rock paper sisscers ,  The rock smashs  sisscers, paper wraps the rock and  sisscers cuts the paper.  your talking apples and Orenges  .  What i am trying to say diffrent things are better for diffrent people  and since your art covers the 3 ranges of fighting which is grappling punching kicking.   You just have a  advantige now if you where just to kick with a tdker or a grappler you would proble lose  because thats what they pratice,  But thats just my 2 cents.   Your friend judo-kid


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## Indie12 (Mar 30, 2011)

Damn... I missed the fight...again?....Can't we all get along?


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## Supra Vijai (Mar 31, 2011)

Well this has been an... interesting read... especially as someone from purely TMA background who highly values the traditions and philosophies. Lots of good back and forth when you get down to it and a lot of interesting points raised. I was originally going to just post the histories of the arts and leave it at that but it's been done already so too late.. 

Just one quick point to the OP though, you say that the forms and kata are useless, totally agree if you look at them as a be all end all approach to modern combat. Try taking a slightly deeper approach though and understand the tactics, strategies and philosophies expressed in those arts (while keeping context in mind!) and you may find you suddenly get a lot more out of them. That's something we are constantly encouraged to do in our own classes. Also just because an art is traditional does not automatically mean it's not going to have adapted or be adaptable to suit more modern environments. Just some thoughts from a MA newbie...


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## Bruno@MT (Mar 31, 2011)

Indie12 said:


> Damn... I missed the fight...again?....Can't we all get along?



Yeah you missed the fight. It was over and already forgotten for 9 years by the time you decided to dredge it up again for no apparent reason.

Virtually everybody involved in the original discussion has left. There is no point in posting questions or replying to posts of people who are not here anymore to reply.
So I closed this thread. Feel free to start a new discussion on this topic if you feel it needs to be discussed further.


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