# Things to hit!



## Supra Vijai (Feb 2, 2011)

Hey all 

So it's my bday soon so I was wanting to get myself some sort of striking target. I have a boxing bag but due to space restrictions where I am currently can't afford to put up a full stand and have it far enough away from walls/windows etc nor can I be drilling any brackets into walls (rental, probably wouldn't go down so well). Logical option then is to look for something free standing yeah? Did that and found these 2 as potentials. Hoping to get a recommedation as to which would be better to train with and would offer more in terms of skill progression. Both cost around the same amount so price isn't the only deciding factor. 












Both have bases that can be filled with water to weigh them down. Would you think one was more stable than the other? More durable? Why?

Thanks in advance!


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## Carol (Feb 2, 2011)

The more stable option IMO is not choosing design A over design B, it would be choosing to fill the base with sand instead of water.  By volume, dry sand is 1.6x heavier than water.  Sand is also more "landlord-friendly".  The bases can leak over time, esp. if its used in an environment where it sees a lot of travel across the floor.  A sand leak, however, is much easier to patch up and clean up than a water leak.

As far as martial techniques, they have different strengths.  The cylindrical bags are better for working overall strikes (incl. kicks), the "dummy" bags are better for working targeting and application.


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## Supra Vijai (Feb 2, 2011)

Thanks Carol! That's great advice about using sand  

That being said about different strengths, if you were training most of your kicks to be at waist height or lower and just utilizing stomping actions or similar rather than full fledged roundhouses, could you get enough use out of design A? 

The other thing I was thinking with that one was the ability to practice things like eye gouges, web strikes to throat and possibly even knife work such as biometric cutting? Are the dummy bags more likely to break under harder impact though? I know the guy at the store said he didn't recommend the ones that had arms because they broke off way too easily but nothing about the head


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## jks9199 (Feb 2, 2011)

All of the freestanding bags I've used aren't exactly stable; they wobble and slide a lot, in my experience.

The BOB design has the advantage of having a "face" and the rest.  But that also limits how you can work it.  You can't just do circling footwork, for example.

If you use sand, get sterilized/cleaned playground sand, not construction sand.  You don't want to be bringing whatever range of critters in with the sand.  If you use water, get some sort of biocide in, for the same reason.


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## Supra Vijai (Feb 2, 2011)

Hi yeah I'd be looking at the clean kids sandpit sand. We have a few nurseries and garden type places around where I live so can get that sort of sand fairly easily. Not sure I get what you mean by circling footwork, it's not a term that stands out in my mind as something I've come across. Could you minimise how much the bag slides around by placing it on a rubber mat of some kind?


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## jks9199 (Feb 2, 2011)

Supra Vijai said:


> Hi yeah I'd be looking at the clean kids sandpit sand. We have a few nurseries and garden type places around where I live so can get that sort of sand fairly easily. Not sure I get what you mean by circling footwork, it's not a term that stands out in my mind as something I've come across. Could you minimise how much the bag slides around by placing it on a rubber mat of some kind?


Circling footwork is just that; footwork that moves you in a circle around a target or your opponent.  BOB won't spin with you; a heavy bag lacks a face, so it doesn't matter.

Not sure about the rubber mat...  My problem was that if I struck or kicked with much power, the whole damn thing would slide and move.  A heavy bag is anchored at the top, and swings.  The freestanding bags like those jump and wobble.  I've literally knocked them over onto their side...  I've also snapped the plastic post on one with a shin kick...  Not bragging, but it's something to think about.


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## Supra Vijai (Feb 2, 2011)

jks9199 said:


> Circling footwork is just that; footwork that moves you in a circle around a target or your opponent. BOB won't spin with you; a heavy bag lacks a face, so it doesn't matter.
> 
> Not sure about the rubber mat... My problem was that if I struck or kicked with much power, the whole damn thing would slide and move. A heavy bag is anchored at the top, and swings. The freestanding bags like those jump and wobble. I've literally knocked them over onto their side... I've also snapped the plastic post on one with a shin kick... Not bragging, but it's something to think about.


 
Ahh literally circling footwork, sorry my brain was going into overdrive thinking it through in an overly complex manner  Good to know about the stability issues, not much point for power generation drills then. Will have a rethink about these bags then and just continue to steal my mates and make them volunteer to get beaten up


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## jks9199 (Feb 2, 2011)

See if you can find one to try out.  My experience isn't yours...


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## Chris Parker (Feb 2, 2011)

Supra, the cylindrical ones are the ones at the Preston school, so have a hit of one after class next week. You've seen what happens when I hit them, but maybe it'll stay standing for you....

Other than that, depending on the house environment (renting, parents, owning etc), you may consider a hanging bag as well. They can be harder to move, as you're not knocking them over their very low centre of weight, so can provide much more resistance for impact work. The BOB I'd only suggest as a targeting device.


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## Supra Vijai (Feb 3, 2011)

jks9199 said:


> See if you can find one to try out.  My experience isn't yours...



Mr. Parker beat me to the reply but I was going to say we have some in the Dojo location we use so I may ask the owner of the equipment if I could get some practice in before classes as I tend to get there at least an hour early each week. 



Chris Parker said:


> Supra, the cylindrical ones are the ones at the Preston school, so have a hit of one after class next week. You've seen what happens when I hit them, but maybe it'll stay standing for you....
> 
> Other than that, depending on the house environment (renting, parents, owning etc), you may consider a hanging bag as well. They can be harder to move, as you're not knocking them over their very low centre of weight, so can provide much more resistance for impact work. The BOB I'd only suggest as a targeting device.



That was one of the reasons I was looking at them to be honest. I saw what happens when you hit them. I've hit them before and I get a nice satisfying thud but not a whole lot more (elbows and punches). Haven't tried any kicks, knees, palms etc but I'm still a long way away from generating the type of power you seem to so effortlessly... I may look for a more compact style stand as well to go with the bag I have as the one I used was quite large. Am renting at present so unable to mount to the walls or make any modifications to any part of the building itself. I was under the impression that a low centre of weight/gravity made it harder to knock something over also which was another reason I thought they may be better than a hanging bag. with regards to the BOB it was more to practice hitting specific targets with claw strikes, boshi and goshi kens and also potentially knife cutting type work although I realised fairly quickly that wouldn't do much good as the target isn't moving and resisting.


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## rlobrecht (Feb 3, 2011)

Our dojang used to have a Bob, but it didn't stand up to long term abuse.  There's a day care which shares our space, so that obviously impacted the use.

One thing to think about with sand is when you move.  It's pretty easy to get water out of the base, and pretty difficult to get sand out of the base.

Rick


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## jks9199 (Feb 3, 2011)

They fall over fairly easily because most of the weight is at the very bottom, but you're striking in the upper half of the dummy.  That's part of why I broke one; I threw a shin kick into the mid-section, and the plastic support tube tried to bend away from the weight at the bottom... and failed.  Dismally.

As regards fill material...   Water actually makes it slide worse, in my experience, because the water starts sloshing and amplifies the force.


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## Carol (Feb 3, 2011)

I thought body-shaped bags they held up pretty well to contact...I've hit them with rattan sticks and training blades that have blunted edges.   I don't think they would hold up to heavy use with force multipliers such as kubotans, or anything with a prominent edge to it.

Something to consider, if you decide to go with the cylindrical bags -- you can put a rubber mat under it and slide it against a wall (or better -- a corner).  Be sure to put additional padding between the bag and the corner walls to protect them.  This results in a surface you can really wail on with punches and kicks...its a better overall workout IMO.


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## Supra Vijai (Feb 4, 2011)

Thanks Carol  I'll give the ones we have at our dojo a go first as suggested and see how I'm going from there. I guess if I wanted both it's just a matter of saving a little harder for a little longer anyway!


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## mook jong man (Feb 5, 2011)

Have you considered Wing Chun wall bags , as the name suggests they are supposed to be mounted on the wall.

But if you have a sturdy enough tree outside and nearby you could whack a few nails into it , hang your wall bag on it , do your training and then take the wall bag back inside with you.

They come in the 1 section variety for hand strikes and also the 3 sectioned variety for hand strikes and kicks.

Usually they are made of canvas but these days they make them in vinyl as well , you can use a variety of materials to fill them such as sand , rice , grains etc.

I use mung beans in mine , I got them pretty cheap from an Indian grocery store , don't worry about the weird look you get when you tell them what you want them for.


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## Carol (Feb 5, 2011)

mook jong man said:


> Have you considered Wing Chun wall bags , as the name suggests they are supposed to be mounted on the wall.
> 
> But if you have a sturdy enough tree outside and nearby you could whack a few nails into it , hang your wall bag on it , do your training and then take the wall bag back inside with you.
> 
> ...



We use similar bags in Filipino training as well (also with mung bean filler).  However, I have never seen bags in that style that can be mounted on a wall (or, for that matter, a door)

I wouldn't mind checking those out myself, that looks interesting.


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## mook jong man (Feb 5, 2011)

Carol said:


> We use similar bags in Filipino training as well (also with mung bean filler). However, I have never seen bags in that style that can be mounted on a wall (or, for that matter, a door)
> 
> I wouldn't mind checking those out myself, that looks interesting.


 
Yeah they are flat and square , you see the metal eyelets up the top , you put screws in them and fix it to a brick wall or any other type of solid structure eg tree etc , I wouldn't put it on the back of a door though , it would vibrate a bit.

In Wing Chun we use them to condition our knuckles and develop our short range power.
Don't practice full power elbow strikes on them , the shock wave travels straight up your arm and into the brain.


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## Supra Vijai (Feb 5, 2011)

mook jong man said:


> Yeah they are flat and square , you see the metal eyelets up the top , you put screws in them and fix it to a brick wall or any other type of solid structure eg tree etc , I wouldn't put it on the back of a door though , it would vibrate a bit.
> 
> In Wing Chun we use them to condition our knuckles and develop our short range power.
> Don't practice full power elbow strikes on them , the shock wave travels straight up your arm and into the brain.



Wisdom of experience?  Thanks for the tip! I'll probably need to speak to my instructor and get advise on the proper way to do hand conditioning first though or use mitts/mma gloves and wait till we go through it in class and start the conditioning aspect then. Definitely something I can check out though!


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## mook jong man (Feb 5, 2011)

Supra Vijai said:


> Wisdom of experience?  Thanks for the tip! I'll probably need to speak to my instructor and get advise on the proper way to do hand conditioning first though or use mitts/mma gloves and wait till we go through it in class and start the conditioning aspect then. Definitely something I can check out though!


 
Supra , when I say conditioning , its not the full on hand conditioning requiring Dit Da Jow for iron palm training that some hard style Kung Fu styles do .

Because a wall bag is canvas it will cause some abrasions on the knuckles and they may bleed the first couple of times you use one , that is caused by the skin being soft and also a more likely cause is poor punching mechanics.

In Wing Chun we use a vertical fist , it is very common for novices to have a slight hammering action instead of driving straight through and this causes the knuckles to become abraded , once they correct their action they no longer have any problems.

So the wall bag helps with the stance and the correct alignment from shoulder to elbow to wrist in other words your structure.

Conditioning was probably too strong a word , canvas is more tougher on the knuckles than focus mitts or a striking shield , but not a whole lot more .
If you are really worried about it , maybe just do palm strikes on it.

They are safe , they have been used in Wing Chun for God knows how long , and I have never heard of anybody getting arthritis or anything.

But to be on the safe side you won't be striking with the same method as we do in Wing Chun , so it would be wise for you to check with your Instructor to see if your striking methods could be safely translated to using a wall bag.


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## Asmo (Feb 5, 2011)

Hey, Mook.

Speaking of wall bags. Have you ever had one of the eyelets fall out? One of mine fell out the other day, and I've been trying to put it back in.

I'm not too sure that losing one would cause my wall bag to tear, but I'd like to be certain it won't hinder my practice.

Thanks.


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## mook jong man (Feb 6, 2011)

Hmmm..... methinks your punching must be so powerful that it caused the eyelet to try and escape from your awesomeness in fear.

Nah I haven't had an eyelet fall out , but I have worn a hole through the canvas and patched it up with denim from an old pair of jeans.

Just see if maybe you can glue it back in , if you can't , then get a washer to put over the hole and put the screw through it , that should hold it firm and stop the screw from tearing through the canvas.

On next weeks show we will be showing you how to build a retaining wall for the garden and a beautiful childrens playhouse that the kids will just love.


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## Supra Vijai (Feb 6, 2011)

I can help with retaining walls! Oh and I'll show you how to build an inexpensive dog house using a paper clip, a box of matches and some bubblegum. I learnt that one from MacGuyver! 

In regards to the topic itself though, thanks! Yeah we use a vertical fist in Ninjutsu as well as well as palm strikes and hand edge strikes, elbow strikes etc. When I mentioned speaking to my instructor first it was because when I first started I tried some strikes out on a boxing bag and ended up tearing up my knuckles. I may just have been using the hammering action to my strike though. So yes overall very useful advice  I can use this type of thing to get hand conditioning happening and look at a smaller frame type thing for a heavy bag to work on power generation. As you said, even with the padding until some serious conditioning has happened you don't want to be using full power against a tree or a brick wall...


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## Asmo (Feb 6, 2011)

mook jong man said:


> Hmmm..... methinks your punching must be so powerful that it caused the eyelet to try and escape from your awesomeness in fear.
> 
> Nah I haven't had an eyelet fall out , but I have worn a hole through the canvas and patched it up with denim from an old pair of jeans.
> 
> ...




I don't think my punches are that powerful. It'd be nice though. :ultracool

I'll have a go with both of those ideas and see what happens.

Thanks!


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## geezer (Feb 8, 2011)

Asmo said:


> Hey, Mook.
> 
> Speaking of wall bags. Have you ever had one of the eyelets fall out? One of mine fell out the other day, and I've been trying to put it back in.
> 
> ...


 
Yeah, I've also had the eyelets gradually tear loose from the weight and stresses. They last longer if you really concentrate on good technique like Mook said... punching straight-on and not hammering downward. Another thing, when hitting, shift your focus point a couple of inches to the side of center. So you hit, for example, ten reps a bit to the left of center, ten reps on center, then ten reps to the right of center, ten more back on center, and so on. That spreads out the wear so you don't have to put the iron-on denim patch on it quite so soon. It also keeps the bag filling from compressing so much, which is better for your hands (unless you like hitting rocks).

On the other hand, you could just go to _Everything Wing Chun_ and get one of their bags that use D-rings instead of grommets. I've seen one that's similar and it's a superior design. They cost a bit more, but if they last longer, it's probably worth it.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 8, 2011)

mook jong man said:


> Have you considered Wing Chun wall bags , as the name suggests they are supposed to be mounted on the wall.
> 
> But if you have a sturdy enough tree outside and nearby you could whack a few nails into it , hang your wall bag on it , do your training and then take the wall bag back inside with you.
> 
> ...


 
I like these as well... and I like a good heavy bag as well

But if you listen to what my Sanda sifu said...all are a waste of money when trees and walls are free... 
I like these as well... and I like a good heavy bag as well

But if you listen to what my Sanda sifu said...all are a waste of money when trees and walls are free... 

But I do not recommend using trees and walls for strike training unless you have someone to train you how to do it correctly so you do not hurt yourself very badly


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## Supra Vijai (Feb 17, 2011)

Thanks Xue  I think I'll stick to slightly softer things than walls and trees for now lol

Just a follow on question, what are the (if there are any) advantages to breaking? I don't know if there is a technical name for that either. I was checking out the canvas bags from a local retailer and will be picking some up in a week or so and while I was on the site, was looking at makiwara boards and what not as well just to get an idea of what's available. One thing that caught my eye was "re-breakable boards". They range in colours from what I gather with Black being the hardest then brown then red then green then yellow then white (easiest). I've tried hitting a brown one in the past with a hand edge strike and, not surprisingly, didn't do much apart from bounce my hand off. Wondering if it's a matter of power or targetting/angling etc?


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## Sukerkin (Feb 17, 2011)

From my own experience with more traditional materials (wooden boards), breaking is a matter of targeting (aiming beyond the strike point) and relaxation.  It's the latter that is counter-intuitive ... how you be relaxed and hit hard enough to break something .

But it is true - if you are tense at the wrong point in the strike then you will not break the boards and you may well hurt yourself ... my bruised knuckles from a few decades back taught me that .


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## Supra Vijai (Feb 17, 2011)

Thanks Suke, it's good to have a reminder that even the pros had to start somewhere


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 18, 2011)

Supra Vijai said:


> Thanks Xue  I think I'll stick to slightly softer things than walls and trees for now lol


 
Hey, what can I say, he thought my heavy bag was a waste of money. But when you start your day, every day, with 30 minutes to 1 hour of tree hitting, as part of your 2 hour workout, I guess you can think this way

He has trained me in some of this and I cant stress enough that this is not something you should just go out and start doing because you will injure yourself. This is definitely something you would need a sifu for.


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## mook jong man (Feb 18, 2011)

Xue Sheng's backyard after a light training session.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 18, 2011)

mook jong man said:


> Xue Sheng's backyard after a light training session.


 
HEY!!!! How did you get that picture.... no one gets into my backyard  :mst:


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## Sukerkin (Feb 18, 2011)

ROFL - excellent job ... and well done Xue, that one there is no mere twig :lol:.


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## Asmo (Feb 18, 2011)

geezer said:


> Yeah, I've also had the eyelets gradually tear loose from the weight and stresses. They last longer if you really concentrate on good technique like Mook said... punching straight-on and not hammering downward. Another thing, when hitting, shift your focus point a couple of inches to the side of center. So you hit, for example, ten reps a bit to the left of center, ten reps on center, then ten reps to the right of center, ten more back on center, and so on. That spreads out the wear so you don't have to put the iron-on denim patch on it quite so soon. It also keeps the bag filling from compressing so much, which is better for your hands (unless you like hitting rocks).
> 
> On the other hand, you could just go to _Everything Wing Chun_ and get one of their bags that use D-rings instead of grommets. I've seen one that's similar and it's a superior design. They cost a bit more, but if they last longer, it's probably worth it.



Thanks for that, I'll give it a go. The wall bag itself is pretty tough, so the holes may not wear but I'd prefer not to have the remaining eyelets fall out.


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## mook jong man (Feb 18, 2011)

Xue Sheng said:


> HEY!!!! How did you get that picture.... no one gets into my backyard :mst:


 
It wasn't easy , and um you might want to keep that shower curtain closed too.  :erg:


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## Supra Vijai (Feb 18, 2011)

mook jong man said:


> It wasn't easy , and um you might want to keep that shower curtain closed too. :erg:


 
Telephoto lens my friend... amazing how far you can see with those - or be cheap and get a sniper scope off Ebay for around $30 and see upto 3 miles or something  Now if I could just learn to curve the damn bullet....


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## Mark Jakabcsin (Feb 27, 2011)

Supra,
My suggestion is neither. Treat yourself to an art that allows / encourages contact. Striking bags, dummies (that don't breath), boards, pads, etc is of limited use. Every year I get a significant number of 10, 15+ year martial artist come to one class and are amazed that they actually hit people. The common comment is "In 10 (15+ years) I have never hit anyone or been hit by anyone, without padding, gloves, etc." It is an eye openner, especially when I ask them to punch me as hard as they can in the solar plexus. Few, very few, can strike someone without negative emotion. The problem is negative emotion reduces our abilty to move properly and leads to poor decisions under stress. Treat yourself to an art that includes fear training, tension awaremenss and stress reduction training. IMO, worth far more than any type of striking thingey.

MJ


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## Supra Vijai (Feb 27, 2011)

Mark Jakabcsin said:


> Supra,
> My suggestion is neither. Treat yourself to an art that allows / encourages contact. Striking bags, dummies (that don't breath), boards, pads, etc is of limited use. Every year I get a significant number of 10, 15+ year martial artist come to one class and are amazed that they actually hit people. The common comment is "In 10 (15+ years) I have never hit anyone or been hit by anyone, without padding, gloves, etc." It is an eye openner, especially when I ask them to punch me as hard as they can in the solar plexus. Few, very few, can strike someone without negative emotion. The problem is negative emotion reduces our abilty to move properly and leads to poor decisions under stress. Treat yourself to an art that includes fear training, tension awaremenss and stress reduction training. IMO, worth far more than any type of striking thingey.
> 
> MJ


 
Hi MJ,

Our school actually encourages full contact (with intensity and power dependant on rank and experience) and the only gear we wear are Gi. The higher level seniors may wear padding to go a lot harder and faster for certain drills with each other but as a rule in normal classes we do tend to hit each other both unarmed and during weapons drills. The dummies or bags are more for me to supplement my training outside of the dojo/partner training to help with targetting, power generation and conditioning. We also train extensively for adrenaline based responses, free form attacks, group attacks etc so that's all covered fairly well


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