# Masaaki Hatsumi



## nbcdecon

I have talked with several people students and nonstudents say Hatsumi-san is the man his skill is unreal. But some of his students say he gives black belts out to shame you into training harder. Has anyone heard the same?


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## Bujingodai

Hatsumi is unreal, some of the techniques he preforms are so subtle and the timing so elite, they almost look childish in difficulty. Hatsumi gives his belts for multiple reasons, I don't think there is a logic behind. He is very abstract in his action and thought, that is the way he wants it.
Analyze it and that makes to total sense to award a BB to someone to give them a slap of reality.
I say this as an ex member of the Bujinkan. But I still believe Hatsumi is the man.


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## nbcdecon

Thank you for the insight.


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## Deaf

Take a look at some of his videos (Hatsumi) and you will see for yourself that the man is "scary" when he moves.

If I understand correctly the practice of handing out ranks in Japan are done with the idea that once you are awarded a rank, you basically train to perform the qualifications of that rank or "grow" into the rank whereas in other parts of the world, it is the opposite, you must first train for the rank and then prove that you are worthy of being awarded that rank.

However I could be wrong with this.  But like many, I really could care less about rank!  It is all about the individual's skill or taijutsu that counts.

Deaf


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## Klondike93

> _Originally posted by Bujingodai _
> 
> *Hatsumi is unreal, some of the techniques he preforms are so subtle and the timing so elite, they almost look childish in difficulty. Hatsumi gives his belts for multiple reasons, I don't think there is a logic behind. He is very abstract in his action and thought, that is the way he wants it.
> Analyze it and that makes to total sense to award a BB to someone to give them a slap of reality.
> I say this as an ex member of the Bujinkan. But I still believe Hatsumi is the man. *



Why are you an ex-member, personal, political........?


:asian:


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## Bujingodai

Honestly a bit of both. I was not getting what I desired from class, and yes the politics were getting a little silly at times. It seems to vary area to area though.


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## Shadow Hunter

Hatsumi gives out rank when he is short of cash.

Nothing more.


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## Dennis_Mahon

> *Hatsumi gives out rank when he is short of cash.
> 
> Nothing more.*



Yeah.  Right.  Suuuuuuurrrrrrrre.


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## Shadow Hunter

It is true. Don't reject the truth just because you do not want to believe it.

Everyone in the Bujinkan I can respect (a very, very small group) says that rank has no meaning. Of course, there are many people who just salivate over the idea of a high rank. Hatsumi takes their cash and sends them away happy. The only people who complain seem to be those who don't like the fact that their ability to impress others is compromised by his very lenient system.

The good practicioners just keep practicing away and don't try to defend what he does or impress others.


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## Scooter

> _Originally posted by Shadow Hunter _
> *Hatsumi gives out rank when he is short of cash.
> 
> Nothing more. *



If this were the case then why is there no charge for rank above godan?  Try to get your facts straight


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## Shadow Hunter

> _Originally posted by Scooter _
> *If this were the case then why is there no charge for rank above godan?  Try to get your facts straight *



But there is.

Ask an honest person who holds such a rank.

And don't argue with people who know more than you.


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## arnisador

Please, keep the discussion polite and respectful.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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## Pyros

> people who know more than you



Then you probaby know that Hatsumi is a rich man from his stock market dealings, so he isn't that often "short of cash".

About Bujinkan rank, up till 4. dan Hatsumi blindly believes his 5. dan and above students. If some 5. dan says someone is 1. dan, Hatsumi honors it without guestion. But 5. dan and above are strictly controlled by Hatsumi. So there can be 4. dans who are lousy and who are expert, all up to their instructors, but 5. dan and above are quality controlled by Hatsumi. This is his way of compromising for such a large organization, without going into a strict "dead" belt-to-belt rank requirement syllabus.

:asian:


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## Scooter

> _Originally posted by Shadow Hunter _
> *But there is.
> 
> Ask an honest person who holds such a rank.
> 
> And don't argue with people who know more than you. *



NO, there isn't. Perhaps you should try talking to sensei!

And out of curiousity, what makes you think you know more than me (or anyone else on here)?


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## Shadow Hunter

> _Originally posted by Scooter _
> *NO, there isn't. Perhaps you should try talking to sensei!
> 
> And out of curiousity, what makes you think you know more than me (or anyone else on here)? *



Because you don't seem to know anything. Ever hear of Alex Mordine? Read his piece on line and you will get confirmation that Hatsumi pockets money from every rank he gives. I will accept your apology when you are ready to make it.



> But 5. dan and above are strictly controlled by Hatsumi. So there can be 4. dans who are lousy and who are expert, all up to their instructors, but 5. dan and above are quality controlled by Hatsumi.



This has got to be joke, right? The number of high ranking incompetents in the Bujinkan is a discusion even among Bujinkan members. There are so many bozos with high ranks that Bujinkan members try to explain it away by saying that it is part of some sort of strategy by Hatsumi. But the fact remains, you can be lousy and the same rank as someone much better than yourself.


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## heretic888

> Hatsumi gives out rank when he is short of cash.



*snicker snicker ralph*

And you would know... how??



> It is true. Don't reject the truth just because you do not want to believe it.



One could say the same to you. Given your biased and unsupported rantings under the "Ninja History" thread, and your unsupported comments on this thread, you obviously have a chip on your shoulder regarding the Bujinkan. Deal with it in the privacy of your own home. Not here.



> Everyone in the Bujinkan I can respect (a very, very small group) says that rank has no meaning.



Such as??



> The only people who complain seem to be those who don't like the fact that their ability to impress others is compromised by his very lenient system.



You know, its easy to claim authority based on nameless sources. Unless you start attaching names to your rather outlandish claims, don't expect anyone to start taking you seriously.



> The good practicioners just keep practicing away and don't try to defend what he does or impress others.



This just keeps getting funnier.



> If this were the case then why is there no charge for rank above godan? Try to get your facts straight



Ditto.



> But there is.
> 
> Ask an honest person who holds such a rank.



I suggest you do a little more research, friend. :shrug: 



> And don't argue with people who know more than you.



Comedy. :rofl: 



> Please, keep the discussion polite and respectful.



Agreed.



> Because you don't seem to know anything.



And you do?? :shrug: 



> Ever hear of Alex Mordine? Read his piece on line and you will get confirmation that Hatsumi pockets money from every rank he gives.



Wasn't this the guy that achieved a judan in 10 years, thinks a martial art isn't "kosher" unless its been in the UFC, and thinks the Bujinkan is spiritually "empty" because it isn't a Christian organization???

Heh. Sounds a lot like Robert Bussey to me.....



> I will accept your apology when you are ready to make it.



Oh boy, now this is starting to get out of hand. Listen, pal, you think you have the "inside scoop" based on one guy?? What about the 1000+ shidoshi in the Bujinkan that would disagree with your source?? Not to mention the various shihan??

Somebody should write this stuff down and make a fortune in a joke book. :shrug: 



> This has got to be joke, right? The number of high ranking incompetents in the Bujinkan is a discusion even among Bujinkan members.



Not outside the internet.



> There are so many bozos with high ranks that Bujinkan members try to explain it away by saying that it is part of some sort of strategy by Hatsumi.



Who says it isn't?? Most of Hatsumi-soke strategies strike me as very Darwinian in nature...



> But the fact remains, you can be lousy and the same rank as someone much better than yourself.



The same could be said for any martial art system. Rank means very little.


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## arnisador

Please, keep the discussion polite and respectful.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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## Scooter

> _Originally posted by Shadow Hunter _
> *Because you don't seem to know anything. Ever hear of Alex Mordine? Read his piece on line and you will get confirmation that Hatsumi pockets money from every rank he gives. I will accept your apology when you are ready to make it.*



I don't know anything.....hmmm  So what makes you an athority on the Bujinkan and its inner workings? What rank do you hold? 
Alex Mordine, yes, I've heard of him, no I don't think much of him.
I know first hand that there is no charge for rank over godan, from soke's mouth. As far as my "apology", perhaps you should wake up and go do some training of your own instead of trying to tell other people how their system works. It's very easy to post false claims on the internet when you don't state who you are or what you know...don't expect anyone to take you too seriously.


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## Shadow Hunter

I'll just remind all the Bujinkan members of what Arnisador said,

[/B][/QUOTE] 





> Please, keep the discussion polite and respectful.





> _Originally posted by heretic888 _
> *  *snicker snicker ralph*
> 
> And you would know... how??*



Scared you, did I? Well it is common knowedge. Everyone gives so meany excuses as to why there are bozos running around with high ranks, the simplest reason is that Hatsumi pockets more than 200 dollars American with every dan rank given.





> _Originally posted by heretic888 _
> *One could say the same to you. Given your biased and unsupported rantings under the "Ninja History" thread, and your unsupported comments on this thread, you obviously have a chip on your shoulder regarding the Bujinkan. Deal with it in the privacy of your own home. Not here.*



And how is telling the truth "having a chip on my shoulder?" It seems that you find it much easier to try to discount me rather than deal with the truth I am telling. 



> _Originally posted by heretic888 _
> *Such as??*



I don't want to embarass them by giving their names.




> _Originally posted by heretic888 _
> *You know, its easy to claim authority based on nameless sources. Unless you start attaching names to your rather outlandish claims, don't expect anyone to start taking you seriously.*



But I did and you just ignored it and started to attack the source in an ad hominum attack.



> _Originally posted by heretic888 _
> *I suggest you do a little more research, friend. :shrug: *



Oh I have. I know a few people with ranks above fifth and they can confirm the fact that they had to pay for their ranks above fifth.

How about you go out and ask someone above fifth dan before you throw more insults around?




> _Originally posted by heretic888 _
> *Comedy. :rofl:*



Again, you don't seem to be able to deal with what I say, so you make the kind of comments above.





> _Originally posted by heretic888 _
> *Wasn't this the guy that achieved a judan in 10 years, thinks a martial art isn't "kosher" unless its been in the UFC, and thinks the Bujinkan is spiritually "empty" because it isn't a Christian organization???*



And how does this have to do with the fact that in an on line interview he confirms that Hatsumi makes people above fifth dan pay for ranks and that he essentially sells them?

Trying to discredit the source of bad news is not an honorable tactic. Alex Mordine achieved high rank in the Bujinkan and can confirm that he paid for his ranks. Live wtih it instead of attacking me.





> _Originally posted by heretic888 _
> *Oh boy, now this is starting to get out of hand. Listen, pal, you think you have the "inside scoop" based on one guy?? What about the 1000+ shidoshi in the Bujinkan that would disagree with your source?? Not to mention the various shihan??
> 
> Somebody should write this stuff down and make a fortune in a joke book. :shrug: *




And who said I was just going off of one guy? How about you ask one of those people who holds rank above fifth and see what they say? I gave a source, I can name other names, but you don't seem to be willing to accept the truth. You only seem eager to attack the bearer of unpleasent truth.




> _Originally posted by heretic888 _
> *Not outside the internet.*



Yes, outside the internet. I have heard Japanese teachers have a good laugh over all the tenth dans in the Bujinkan.





> _Originally posted by heretic888 _
> *Who says it isn't?? Most of Hatsumi-soke strategies strike me as very Darwinian in nature...*



Or a good source of cash. I am not saying that he is raping the students over rank. They are the ones supplying the KY jelly. But the logical conclusion is that Hatsumi gives out ranks to eager students for pocket change.





> _Originally posted by heretic888 _
> *The same could be said for any martial art system. Rank means very little.*



Have you bothered checking into every single martial art? Some arts take their ranking seriously. I personally do not put too much importance on it. In some systems you will find logical, centralized means of attaching rank. A second dan in such an art will know less than a 7th dan in terms of techniques and how well to do them. In the Bujinkan, the second dan may be better in every respect to the seventh dan, but just never attracted Hatsumi's attention when he needed some cash.


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## Bujingodai

Being a member of the Bujinkan andan independent org I will chime in with my slightly uneducated opinion.

First off both parties here have good points and way broad allegations at the same time.

To state that the only poor practitioners in the Kan are online is wrong.
Also by making a point that Mordine got his Judan in less than 10 years only points the finger back at the Kan. I will assure you that I know of some who have recievied it in less. Also the rest of the martial arts community finds it pretty funny.

This brings up the point of Hatsumis "anarchistic" grading template. It is a lot of doublespeak. People make comments of the way he does it and rank meaning nothing etc etc. Yet focus is placed on rank. Be honest, who do you take more seriously. A Hachidan or a Shodan. Yet I have met lots of high rankers with little skill, IMO

Now Mordine was a putz with that article. Just flat out disrespectful IMO again.

The fact is that even though all the independent orgs may be "fake" The Bujinkan has lost its hold on quality assurance. Period, but again this is told by saying that Hatsumi allowing us to weed out the crap ourselves.

It is obvious by the # of high ranks vs other arts. And that does speak volumes makes an issue.

Now I do disagree with Hatsumi ranking for cash. I think there are other motives there. Hatsumi and the vast majority if Shidoshi et al are incredibly skilled. Wonderful people. Hatsumi is an incredible man that most should be jealous to move like. I love going to Tai Kais etc. I am a proud member, but there are problems that many teachers in the Kan will agree with but not discuss publicly.

I have also never been in an org where so many teachers have such little respect for each other.

Ralph Severe is a Judan, look how much crap he gets 
John Wilson is 13th dan and gets dashed on the board all the time
My Shidoshi didn't like his teacher, or his teachers teacher or who I went to get taught.
Think about it.

There is both sides IMHO:soapbox:


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## Cryozombie

Im curious, Shadowhunter, 

What is your style, what arts do you practice, and your ranks?  You have nothing listed in your profile, and I was wondering where your expertise comes from.   

I personaly am the first to admit, I am low ranked, and perhaps less "educated" in the department than many many here, but of all the arts I HAVE studied, even at my low rank, the arts I have learned in the Bujinkan seem FAR more effective FOR ME than the Taekwondo, Hapkido, and Kyokushinkai i previously studied.


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## Shadow Hunter

> _Originally posted by Technopunk _
> *Im curious, Shadowhunter,
> 
> What is your style, what arts do you practice, and your ranks?  You have nothing listed in your profile, and I was wondering where your expertise comes from.*



Does it matter for the subject at hand?  Why not stay on subject instead of acting like a bunch of fraud busters who are no longer welcome at martialtalk? You seem to be trying to descredit me since you can't deal with what I say. Stop it and keep on subject.



> _Originally posted by Technopunk _
> *I personaly am the first to admit, I am low ranked, and perhaps less "educated" in the department than many many here, but of all the arts I HAVE studied, even at my low rank, the arts I have learned in the Bujinkan seem FAR more effective FOR ME than the Taekwondo, Hapkido, and Kyokushinkai i previously studied. *



And what does what you feel about your art have to do with the subject at hand?

One more thing, while you were in all those other arts, were you aware that you were not in very effective arts? If so, why are you so certain that you are in one now? Ever had to try your techniques against a crack head with a knife?


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## Cryozombie

Shadowhunter, 

Im sorry if you think I am trying to fraud bust... I was asking "WHY" your opinion is more relevant than others, it would be easy for anyone to say, "I know what I am talking about" but before I took your opinion at face value, I simply wanted to know that you had some background in somthing that could lend it weight as somthing other than opinion before I listen blindly to someone who could be nothing more than a troll.  

I could very easily say Kung Fu Sucks, no one should study it, but having no real background in it, it would be stupid for people to listen to me...

Also, I did, in all three cases, come to know very quickly that what I was studying wasn't going to work.  That is why I left all three schools.


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## Shadow Hunter

Ok,
I will throw the question right back at you. Why should my statments be held any less respected than any other here? All of the guys who have recieved rank from Hatsumi have a stake in saying that it actually meant something, rather than just served as a means for Hatsumi to buy more booze after teaching a long class.

Everyone here is stating with such authority that there is some sort of method to the madness of Bujinkan rank. Ok, show me it.

All told, my explination is the only one that holds water.


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## Scooter

> _Originally posted by Shadow Hunter _
> *
> All told, my explination is the only one that holds water. *



It hasn't yet! You're doing a very poor job of spinning this but have yet to back anything up. The question of your background is relavent as if you have no experience in the system, then who are you to say anything about it?? The very fact that you won't even state your name or affiliation speaks to me )and probably others on here) that you're a bitter kid who is upset because he didn't get the rank he felt he deserved but didn't earn, so now is lashing out by attacking Hatsumi and his orginization. It is a known fact by anyone involved that there is no fee for rank above godan in the Bujinkan. In fact, the previous dan ranks, only HALF the money goes to Hatsumi, the other half goes to the shidoshi granting the rank!  If he's so money hungry, why not take it all?  As far as "underqualified high ranks" in the Bujinkan, is it any different than any other art? TKD is rampant with it, as are many arts. But as you like to state, back to the point at hand....there are no charges for rank over godan! In fact, part of the fee for godan goes to charity....yeah, sounds REAL greedy! 
So, if you are going to make accusations like that, PROVE it! And tell us WHY we should believe you (such as your affiliation with the Bujinkan),


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## Shadow Hunter

> _Originally posted by Scooter _
> *It is a known fact by anyone involved that there is no fee for rank above godan in the Bujinkan.*



You see, there you are speaking from ignorance. Alex Mordine has backed up on line that ranks above fifth dan also pay fees. That caused such a scandal that Hatsumi asked George Ohashi to post a "request" that people do not discuss rank fees on line. Why would he issue such a gag order if the matter was not relevent?

For that matter, why has not anyone above the rank of fifth dan come into this discussion and stated that they never had to pay for their seventh or eighth dan? Ehhh?

Hatsumi makes cash off of every rank that is registered with him. It is a pretty good racket. Everyone is happy. So why are you screaming so shrilly when the truth is talked about in public? What are you so scared of? Why do you care?  Why spend so much time trying to demonize me instead of calling up one of those nose bleed ranks and _actually getting the story from them?_ Why are you so scared to ask someone like Jay Bell if he payed Hatsumi for his last rank?

But no, it is easier for you to attack, .attack attack  the guy who stands up and says that the emporer has no clothes


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## Bujingodai

I would also agree that those posing the more aggressive arguements here are not holding as much water as maybe steam. Shadowhunter, you obviously are near the Ninjutsu scene. I am also an independent, I'd like to talk. Email me if you would. Now Scott you state some things that don't sound too secure. Have you seen Bujinkan reports financially? What portion goes to charity, have we proof? and for the ranking money 1/2 to Shidoshi, I saw the entire money I paid to the Shidoshi Kai go into an envelope to Japan, not my Shidoshi when I received my Yudansha. Just looking as to the source of that. Also having been to a few dojo, the prices are all pretty different.

But also I'd state for the record that Shadowhunter seems to be a little aggressive with this and has a bone to pick. So it would seem.

Can you please give us your name?


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## Cryozombie

> _Originally posted by Shadow Hunter _
> *Ok,
> I will throw the question right back at you. Why should my statments be held any less respected than any other here?  *



Shadow, again, I am sorry if I havnt been clear in what I asked and why...  I was just wondering what your connection was.     It's not neccessarily that I don't respect your statements, it's just i know the background and where some of the other posters are coming from in theirs.  For all I know you could just be someone who has no knowlage of the Bujinkan, or Soke Hatsumi. who heard from a guy who knows a guy who took a class with... kind of thing.  I really am out to learn somthing here, not point fingers and bust frauds!   

But to really To be honest, the reason I asked is because I was curious if you had affiliation with the Genbukan or another (I hate to use the term) "rival" ninjustsu organization and if that is where your bias came from...  or if you were a former bujinkan student who got burned, etc etc...   

Really man, I am not trying to start anything and again, I am sorry if it seems that way... I just dont know where you are coming from with your info... and call me analytical, but I like to know a little bit before I throw blind faith around...  that's why I asked in the first place.


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## Cryozombie

> _Originally posted by Shadow Hunter _
> *] Why are you so scared to ask someone like Jay Bell if he payed Hatsumi for his last rank? *



Jay Bell, 

DID you pay Soke Hatsumi for your last rank?


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## Shadow Hunter

Ok Technopunk, I understand.

I can not really talk too much about who I am or what experience I have had with Hatsumi and the Bujinkan. But trust me when I say that I am parroting a lot of complaints that some current Bujinkan members make in private, but can't in an open forum. Please don't ask me to mention their names, they will become targets then.

They enjoy the Bujinkan and are very competent martial artists. The fact that Hatsumi gives out ranks to rank hungry people for cash does not intrude on their training and they don't care what other groups think of them.


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## Cryozombie

Ok, I will respect that.  Thank you.


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## Jay Bell

Wow...I didn't catch this thread until just now.

This is a difficult topic to discuss.  The question was asked if I paid for my last rank to Hatsumi sensei.  No, I honestly did not.  My teacher at the time did not require all ranking to be purchased, unless you wanted the license to go with it.

Alex Mordine was mentioned a handfull of times.  I think bringing him into the mix of things, though his opinions are valid as any, isn't quite fair.  Alex, from my opinions, has far too many axes to grind for me to lend an ear to what he has to say.  He practices much of what he attempts to crucify Hatsumi sensei of.  

So the underline question is whether or not Hatsumi sensei sells rank.  Yes...he sure does.  Is this a bad thing?  I guess it depends on the angle that it's viewed.  While I always had issues with the reality of it while I was in the Bujinkan, it was wasted emotion.  Hatsumi sensei often gives people what they want to bring a smile to their face...oft-times for a price.  Much of the time, this does nothing much then concrete their own jaded egos of who and what they are in the whole scheme of things.

A lot of people in the Bujinkan protest that rank has no importance.  I don't agree.  Case in point...would you prefer to train with a Sandan or a Sankyu at face value?  But when the discussions come about...the same people that chose the Sandan without hesitation are the same people claiming that rank has no importance.  Odd...

I think it's unfair to set Hatsumi sensei in the light that he's out to make a quick buck and nothing more.  There *is* a very concrete lesson in what he's doing.  People that buy rank...well....let's simply say that they aren't seen in a very high light.  What might have been shared with them may no longer be.  It says volumes of their character and what they consider important.  Face...not what's inside.

This is a great conversation...but please, let's keep the elevated emotions at bay.  Everyone has really good and valid points...as long as things are kept to a low roar and civil.  It's *very* difficult for people outside of *any* organization to understand the inner-workings from looking through a window.


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## Bob Hubbard

Jay, 

if I'm reading you right, he will sell it, but the person who bought the rank then ends up more on the outside than in, and as a result they tend to be 'left out' of the 'real deep stuff'.

Is this right?

If so, how can someone know who paid and who earned, since on the surface a 5th is a 5th is a 5th.  (unless we're talkin good brandy, in which case, all bets are off.) 

:asian:


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## Jay Bell

Bob,

That's pretty much spot on.  Honestly...through training and life, peoples eyes tend to open and their sensitivity to "see" what their instructors or other instructors are about are fine tuned...if they are going about things with the correct heart.

There's a story (tale?) of the 1000th Godan passing.  Someone made mention of it being the 1000th Godan to pass the test.  Hatsumi sensei chuckled and said, "Yes!  500 good, 500 bad!"  No one listens though...


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## heretic888

Very interesting.  

Like I said before, Hatsumi-soke's leadership strategies strike me as very Darwinian in nature. In my opinion.

Laterz.


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## Shadow Hunter

> _Originally posted by heretic888 _
> *Like I said before, Hatsumi-soke's leadership strategies strike me as very Darwinian in nature. In my opinion.*



I can understand why you and Jay _want_ to believe there is a method to the way Masaaki Hatsumi does things that makes some sort of sense.

But if there was some sense, then there should be some sort of pattern visible to us. There would be a reason that applies to everyone equally. There just does not seem to be any.

And you would think that Hatsumi sensei would care about the students that train under incompetent, but highly ranked teachers. I can not see any caring. If two teachers gave a seminar in a town on the same day, and the less competent one had a higher rank on the advertisments, then he would have more students show up for his.

People in the Bujinkan ***** a lot about bad instructors and moan about the poor students who pay good money to learn crap from them, but they never have the courage to point out that the ultimate responsibility for the way things are done rests with Hatsumi sensei.


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## Scooter

> _Originally posted by Shadow Hunter _
> *Ok Technopunk, I understand.
> 
> I can not really talk too much about who I am or what experience I have had with Hatsumi and the Bujinkan. But trust me when I say...  *



How very convenient...how can you expect anyone seriously to take what you have to say into consideration when you refuse to state who you are and what you know. Currently you're no more than any other annonymous internet poster with no knowledge or proof to back up your comments. Please us some background on you and perhaps people will listen to what you have to say.
Until then.... :shrug:


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## Shadow Hunter

> _Originally posted by Scooter _
> *How very convenient...how can you expect anyone seriously to take what you have to say into consideration when you refuse to state who you are and what you know. Currently you're no more than any other annonymous internet poster with no knowledge or proof to back up your comments. Please us some background on you and perhaps people will listen to what you have to say.
> Until then.... :shrug: *



But I am the one who has been proven correct on things like paying for rank over fifth degree. The folks who took the time to flame me were proven wrong.

But I understand your position. It is easier to try to descredit the bearer of bad news than to deal with the obvious truths he brings to the discussion.


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## heretic888

> I can understand why you and Jay want to believe there is a method to the way Masaaki Hatsumi does things that makes some sort of sense.



Oh geez... :shrug: 



> But if there was some sense, then there should be some sort of pattern visible to us.



No, not necessarily.



> There would be a reason that applies to everyone equally.



Again, not necessarily. Hatsumi most likely makes his decisions on ranks on a case by case individual basis.



> There just does not seem to be any.



Rather, none that you can see. Contrary to what you may believe, shadow, you are not omniscient.



> And you would think that Hatsumi sensei would care about the students that train under incompetent, but highly ranked teachers. I can not see any caring.



Heh. I don't think you quite understand what I meant by "Darwinism".



> If two teachers gave a seminar in a town on the same day, and the less competent one had a higher rank on the advertisments, then he would have more students show up for his.



No, not necessarily.



> People in the Bujinkan ***** a lot about bad instructors and moan about the poor students who pay good money to learn crap from them, but they never have the courage to point out that the ultimate responsibility for the way things are done rests with Hatsumi sensei.



I believe someone on E-Budo described it as Hatsumi-soke giving you the rope you need to hang yourself. If hanging yourself is what you want to do.



> But I am the one who has been proven correct on things like paying for rank over fifth degree. The folks who took the time to flame me were proven wrong.



How have you been "proven" right?? The only person here who has referred to their own personal experience on the matter is Jay, and he categorically stated he didn't pay for his last dan ranking.



> But I understand your position. It is easier to try to descredit the bearer of bad news than to deal with the obvious truths he brings to the discussion.



Uhhh.... right.


----------



## Shadow Hunter

> _Originally posted by heretic888 _
> *No, not necessarily.*



But if there is nothing we can see and point to, how the hell can anyone state with any certainty that there is a method to the way Hatsumi sensei ranks people. How can you say what you do without the slightest bit of proof to back it up? If you can't show a pattern of behavior visible for everyone to see, then what you say is merely your theory that you want to believe. 




> _Originally posted by heretic888 _
> *Heh. I don't think you quite understand what I meant by "Darwinism".*



So good people who do not know any better (because what student starts knowing all the answers) can study under a goof ball instructor and Hatsumi sensei does not care as long as he gets his share of the cash?

Are students walking in the door supposed to know the internal politics of the Bujinkan? All they know is that certain instructors can show proof that they are highly ranked by Hatsumi sensei. They do not know that Hatsumi sensei gives ranks to morons as well. They study under poor instructors that have what to most people would be a word of reccomendation by Hatsumi sensei as to their abilities.

And the morons in the Bujinkan, they are still there are they not? People still pay people them money to train under them, correct? They pay off Hatsumi for the rank of their students and they continue to train. How is that supposed to weed out the poor students and leave behind the better ones?



> _Originally posted by heretic888 _
> *How have you been "proven" right?? The only person here who has referred to their own personal experience on the matter is Jay, and he categorically stated he didn't pay for his last dan ranking.
> *



He did not have his last dan rank registered with Japan and did not get the liscense. If you want the liscense (certificate from Hatsumi sensei) you pay the money no matter what rank you are.

Take a little less time attacking me and more time understaning the subject and we might have more time off line to train. It is kind of a waste of my time to be spending all this time telling you the facts of life about your own orginization when taking your head out of the sand and checking things out on your own could achieve the same result.


----------



## Jay Bell

> He did not have his last dan rank registered with Japan and did not get the liscense. If you want the liscense (certificate from Hatsumi sensei) you pay the money no matter what rank you are.



Damn that $30!!!   

When will the money making scheme end?!


----------



## Scooter

I spoke to Ed "Papa-san" Martin, shihan, regarding this thread...he said that you are incorrect Mr Annonymous (shadow) and WAY off the mark implying that Hatsumi is greedy. Now I trust his knowledge of Hatsumi and the workings of the Bujinkan a hell of alot more than yours...
he also agreed that someone who is so convinced that he is correct yet won't give any information about himself is probably full of something, but it's not the facts.


----------



## Shadow Hunter

I am sure Ed Martin does not think Hatsumi is greedy. But the fact remains that everyone who gets rank from Hatsumi pays for it, no matter what rank it is. Again, there are several members of the Bujinkan that can confirm this like Alex Mordine. People have blasted him for a lot of things, but they can not dispute it when he makes that statement about the cost of rank in the upper ranges.

These are his _exact words_ he uses in his interview.





> Some one once asked me, "What's the difference between a
> Bujinkan 10th and 11th Dan?"  My
> answer was, "30,000 Yen."



You can talk about how he is a psycopath and does a lot of things he accuses Hatsumi of and I will not disagree. But No one has come out and proven him wrong in his statement above. 30,000 yen is almost 300 American dollars, not 30.


----------



## heretic888

Yes, and Mr. Mordine's blatantly self-promoting interview/article is proof of the sheer truthfulness of his claims, neh?? :shrug:


----------



## Shadow Hunter

> _Originally posted by heretic888 _
> *Yes, and Mr. Mordine's blatantly self-promoting interview/article is proof of the sheer truthfulness of his claims, neh?? :shrug: *



When someone tells a truth that is unpleasent, try charecter assasination and resort to non related issues, eh?  

Mr Mordine may be self promoting, but how does that _automatically_ make everything he says a lie? That is the problem with a lot of the Bujinkan- they demonize anyone whom they can't deal with and speaks the truth. Have you gotten a high rank like he has? Have you dared call him a liar to his face?

And anyone who wants to remain in the good graces of the general Bujinkan population has to toe the line instead of talking about the 30,000 yen they have to pay for something like 7th dan. Hatsumi made that order rather than allow a free flow of ideas and conversation.


----------



## heretic888

> When someone tells a truth that is unpleasent, try charecter assasination and resort to non related issues, eh?



No offense, shad, but both your posts here and Mr. Mordine's article on his site have done nothing but a failed attempt at character assassination. There are many things I tolerate (especially online), but hypocrisy isn't one of them. :shrug: 



> Mr Mordine may be self promoting, but how does that automatically make everything he says a lie?



Because he is accusing Hatsumi-soke of things he does ten times over. Study a little Freud or Jung. They call it "projectionism".



> That is the problem with a lot of the Bujinkan- they demonize anyone whom they can't deal with and speaks the truth.



Wow... more broad generalizations.  



> Have you gotten a high rank like he has?



No... but, then again, if I got a judan in only 10 years (about how long it takes most people to get to godan, I believe) I probably wouldn't be bragging about that, either.



> Have you dared call him a liar to his face?



Have you dared call Hatsumi the things you accuse him of to his face??? Ahhh... hypocrisy.  



> And anyone who wants to remain in the good graces of the general Bujinkan population has to toe the line instead of talking about the 30,000 yen they have to pay for something like 7th dan.



Kinda funny how only this individual you have spoken with (who, suprise suprise, remains anonymous) was asked to pay this fee. All these other ranked Bujinkan-ers seem to have no idea what you're talking about.



> Hatsumi made that order rather than allow a free flow of ideas and conversation.



Yes, because Hatsumi-soke is known for imposing a set way of thinking, acting, and teaching to his students, as evidenced by the obvious uniformity of the Bujinkan dojos.


----------



## Scooter

ok, ed martin outranks mordine, and has a much better reputation...as I already stated, he said you are wrong! Point blank. No charge over Judan, often no charge after godan. And any money from rank is split half to Hatsumi and half to the shidoshi doing the promotion. 
no too mention, you'll be pretty hard pressed to find too many shihan that think anything much of mordine....

and yet again, how about some background from you and these "numerous" sources you have.  You're quick to say that everyone else is dodging the facts, yet you haven't sustantiated anything yet....how bout we start with your name and actual training involvement in ninjutsu


----------



## Shadow Hunter

> _Originally posted by heretic888 _
> *No offense, shad, but both your posts here and Mr. Mordine's article on his site have done nothing but a failed attempt at character assassination. There are many things I tolerate (especially online), but hypocrisy isn't one of them. :shrug:*



I stated that Hatsumi gave rank for money to those willing to pay for it. You may not like it, but until you show something that clearly states the way things are done that everyone can see for themselves, then my view on things is no less valid than anyone else. 





> _Originally posted by heretic888 _
> *Because he is accusing Hatsumi-soke of things he does ten times over. Study a little Freud or Jung. They call it "projectionism".*





He may accuse Hatsumi of being motivated by business, but the fact that you pay 30,000 yen is just a fact. Talk to Dale Seago, Bill Atikins, Mark O'Brian Ralph Severe or anyone else that has the "nosebleed ranks" and ask them if they had to pay for ranks over fifth dan. Go ahead, I dare you.






> _Originally posted by heretic888 _
> *Have you dared call Hatsumi the things you accuse him of to his face??? Ahhh... hypocrisy. *





Are yo so sure I have not. 




> _Originally posted by heretic888 _
> *Kinda funny how only this individual you have spoken with (who, suprise suprise, remains anonymous) was asked to pay this fee. All these other ranked Bujinkan-ers seem to have no idea what you're talking about.*





First of all Individuals. Note, I used the PLURAL. There are more than one. Go ahead, ask the guys I mentioned above. I dare you.





> _Originally posted by heretic888 _
> *Yes, because Hatsumi-soke is known for imposing a set way of thinking, acting, and teaching to his students, as evidenced by the obvious uniformity of the Bujinkan dojos.  *



Hatsumi has impsed a way of THINKING!!!! My god!! You really are ready to drink the kool aide if he says so. He does not want people talking about how much he makes off of ranks in open forumes, which is why anyone who has a rank above fifth registered in Japan has avoided this conversation.


> _Originally posted by heretic888 _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Originally posted by scooter _
> *ok, ed martin outranks mordine, and has a much better reputation...as I already stated, he said you are wrong!*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> About Hatsumi being motivated by greed. Which is his _opinion_. And he has not come on this board to state this. We only have your word for it. Let him come on this board and state for the record that he has never paid for any rank above fifth and knows of no one who has.
> 
> Why don't we end this bickering by asking someone with a rank above fifth dan to state in a public forum how much he paid for his rank and if he knows of other people who have paid 30,000 yen for it. I will take a silence as a _tacit admission_ that what I say is true. Any Bujinkan member who says the truth will be persecuted, so they will not want to come here. But the mere fact that they don't post will give proof to the truth I state.
> 
> I am getting tired of being attacked by those who know so little about their own orginization. Let someone with with a registered rank in Japan have the courage to say that what I say is false.
Click to expand...


----------



## arnisador

Please, keep the discussion polite and professional.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


----------



## Shadow Hunter

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *Please, keep the discussion polite and professional.
> 
> -Arnisador
> -MT Admin- *



Ok, I will try. But when someone starts there post with the words, "No offense, shad, but both your posts here and Mr. Mordine's article on his site have done nothing but a failed attempt at character assassination." it tends to come across as a thinly veiled attack. I really want to know who Heritic888's teacher is. I really do suspect he is not a member of the Bujinkan, but rather a member of an orginization that wants it to look bad.


----------



## Captain Harlock

> I will take a silence as a tacit admission that what I say is true. Any Bujinkan member who says the truth will be persecuted, so they will not want to come here. *But the mere fact that they don't post will give proof to the truth I state.*



Dumb question time:

I once heard it said that one cannot prove a negative.  The person who said this was very learned and wise.  How is it that you can find proof in the un-provable?

Your information in many areas is impressive.  Your skills as a debater however are lacking.  You are obviously well past the point of losing your temper, and it is showing.  Rather than show facts, you become abusive and insulting, both signs of a poor argument.

I have quoted a small portion of your ranting.  Please, prove them to also be true.

I repeat them for simplicity.


> Any Bujinkan member who says the truth will be persecuted, so they will not want to come here.



Please identify any Bujinkan members who have said the truth and been persecuted in the past.



> I will take a silence as a tacit admission that what I say is true.



Have you considered that perhaps they consider you beneath notice?



> But the mere fact that they don't post will give proof to the truth I state.


So, the fact that they are not here to reply, and most likely are unaware of the argument is besides the point?

Ok then.  Your great grandfather was a closet cross dresser and an embezzler.  If that's not true, have him post.  Otherwise, it must be true by your own logic.

Things are so much easier when you leave reason and the like at the door.



:asian:


----------



## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Shadow Hunter _
> *Ok, I will try.*



A point of general information:

A posted warning like this is meant to be a notice to all parties. The fact that it follows your post does not necessarily mean that it was directed at you.

In this thread I hope that all parties will bring the discussion back to a polite and respectful one. The topic is quite fair to discuss, but we must insist that it be done in a _friendly_ way.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


----------



## Shadow Hunter

> _Originally posted by Captain Harlock _
> *Dumb question time:
> 
> I once heard it said that one cannot prove a negative.  The person who said this was very learned and wise.  How is it that you can find proof in the un-provable?*



In this case, there are hundreds of Bujinkan members who are above the rank of fifth dan who are active on the internet. The fact that not one of them is willing to comment on this is pretty telling, don't you think?



> _Originally posted by Captain Harlock _
> *Please identify any Bujinkan members who have said the truth and been persecuted in the past.*



Take a look at how people have blasted Alex Mordine in this thread. He has many faults, but the way people jump on him for telling the truth about the cost of rank is most telling. Do you think the people I know want to complain publically after seeing this?





> _Originally posted by Captain Harlock _
> *Have you considered that perhaps they consider you beneath notice?*



Nice insult. You do your orginization proud if you are a Bujinkan member. But if that is the case, then why is everyone screaming so shrilly at the little kid commenting on the lack of clothes on the king?





> _Originally posted by Captain Harlock _
> *So, the fact that they are not here to reply, and most likely are unaware of the argument is besides the point?*



So why does not someone get some of the people who are active on other forums to join Martialtalk and respond if they are not scared of the truth? I have been part of this conversation for how long and no one with a rank registered in Japan above fifth dan wants to join in?



> _Originally posted by Captain Harlock _
> *Ok then.  Your great grandfather was a closet cross dresser and an embezzler.  If that's not true, have him post.  Otherwise, it must be true by your own logic.*



Again, nice insult. Grandad never bothered to use a computer. Several hundred Bujinkan members above fifth dan can and are avoiding this conversation. I wonder why.  



> _Originally posted by Captain Harlock _
> *Things are so much easier when you leave reason and the like at the door.*



Again, great insult. I wonder why some people are so involved in insulting me rather than get someone over fifth dan to state the truth. Gad, could it be they do not want someone to tell the truth? Or perhaps they have tried to contact people over fifth dan and they are refusing to respond???

All you people would be much better served by doing something usefull rather than sending insults my way.


----------



## Scooter

look, I posted what I was asked to by Ed Martin, (13th dan Bujinkan)...he didn't directly as feels no need to waste his time in this matter. So you do have your "nosebleed" high rank commenting on this. 
I have asked (as have others) NUMEROUS times for your background in this matter, with NO response. All you do is spin!
Enough of this....if you have anything else, don't say it, SHOW it!


----------



## Cryozombie

> _Originally posted by Shadow Hunter _
> *
> 
> Take a look at how people have blasted Alex Mordine in this thread. He has many faults, but the way people jump on him for telling the truth about the cost of rank is most telling. *



Hey Shadow, A question...

My old Bujinkan instructor once told me a story when I started my training YEARS ago... Now, to you and evertyone, I have no PROOF that this is true, like I said it was a story from my old instructor... it was About a mid level Dan ranking instructor who went to Soke Hatsumi and DEMANDED his next rank.  Soke Thought about it, and then told him OK, but it costs X amount of dollars. (I dont remember the amount he siad, but it was high)  The Dan paid him and Soke said "Ok your now * Dan"  When the guy left, another high ranking Dan that witnessed the exchange asked Soke Hatsumi WHY he gave into the other guy and sold him his rank.  Hatsumi told him... "It doesnt matter, he demaded and I yeilded.  His rank is meaningless he is like a paper tiger."

Could Alex Mordine have been involved in somthing like this and thats why he insists that there are exorbat fees and such?

I have to admit, (and this doesnt come from being Bujinkan) that if someone did that to me, Id take em to the bank too.  I do PC repair on the side and charge 60 bucks an hour to go onsite and do it... if someone DEMANDED i show up and fix it, Id say sure but i charge 150 an hour, 2 hours minimum...  If they were still willing to pay, well...

The only Higher ranking (Former) Bujinkan member that has addressed this directly on the Forum is Jay who stated the fee is only 30 bucks... I also think that 30 bucks for a BB rank,  even IF its being paid over 5th is NOT bad consdiering a lot of TKD schools charge 100+ per BB rank...


----------



## Shadow Hunter

Technopunk,

I know of current Bujinkan members who have let slip that they have to pay 30.000 yen per rank. They do not dare talk about it in public, and you can see that they are not coming on this board to dispute this fact. They still train and are members of good standing. But when they get together for a few drinks they sit around and grumble on how much their last rank cost them.

The funny thing is, 30.000 is actually kind of cheap for a rank in Japan. Some orginizations charge way more than that. The controversy is that a large orgnization may give only one or two seventh dans a year, if that. There has to be four or five people that get ranks while in Japan from Hatsumi every week.

Technopunk, if you want proof of what I say, take aside someone who has such a rank and ask them if they paid for it. The story here is changing. People at first tried to say that there was no money paid for rank over fifth. Now they are trying to say that it is not all that much. All ranks in the Bujinkan pay 30.000 to Hatsumi if they want their rank recognized in Japan. Go ask this question on Kutaki.org and see if the question is allowed to stand or if it is deleted by the administrator.


----------



## Deaf

Well considering that pretty much all martial art organizations charge fees for ranking, what is the big deal?  Whether or not Hatsumi Sensei charges for ranks?  And even if the person doesn't really deserve it etc.?  

Does it affect you?  You training?  

In terms of why not any Shidoshi should get online and "disclaim" your "facts"?  You ever stop to think that they just don't give a crap?  They deal with other day to day activities and other annoyances?  Why participate in a pointless debates such as this?

So if you truly need to know... then ask them yourself!  I DO NOT need to prove you wrong or otherwise so it is not my worry.  But from the looks of it, it is definitely a troublesome worry for you.  So the burden of proof is on you.  One article from a dude that is not exactly a "model" of confidence and seems to be a bit "off" in the reality plane is not proof to many of us here.  But if it is proof enough for you then great.  Topic closed!  Move on!  Or as I have heard from many... "*SHUT UP AND TRAIN!!*"

~Deaf~


----------



## Shadow Hunter

> _Originally posted by Deaf _
> *Well considering that pretty much all martial art organizations charge fees for ranking, what is the big deal?  Whether or not Hatsumi Sensei charges for ranks?  And even if the person doesn't really deserve it etc.?
> 
> Does it affect you?  You training?*



That sound you hear is me getting up on a chair and applauding..  



> _Originally posted by Deaf _
> *In terms of why not any Shidoshi should get online and "disclaim" your "facts"?  You ever stop to think that they just don't give a crap?  They deal with other day to day activities and other annoyances?  Why participate in a pointless debates such as this?*



True. If they don't mind that I am talking about how Hatsumi charges 30.000 yen for any rank, then I don't expect them to show up and say otherwise. But if what I say is not true, then I can't see why someone like Ed Martin who posts on e-budo can't join this forum and state things publically and for the record. If he does not care enough to come over and say things himself, why are other people getting their panties in a wad?



> _Originally posted by Deaf _
> *So if you truly need to know... then ask them yourself!*



Oh, I have heard it from several high ranking Bujinkan members. It is the other side that is screaming that won't start a thread on Kutaki for fear of the answer.

I have stated what I have observed and heard. The other side tried to state at first that there was _no_ money charged for rank above fifth, then tried to portray it as not being all that much. Alex Mordine has stated that 30.000 yen is the rate of a rank at any level in an article you all can read for yourself. If you want to disprove what he says- go ahead and try. I am getting sick of the tactic of "don't listen to him- he's a bad man" that happens whenever someone states something less than glorious about the Bujinkan.


----------



## Jay Bell

Ranks typically fall into about $100 per Dan grade...IE...Shodan is 100, Nidan is 200 and so on until Godan.  Actually, Godan is about 300 last I heard <??>  After Godan it seems like a case by case basis.


----------



## Cryozombie

Well, there you go.


----------



## Bujingodai

I paid $350 for my Shodan. At the last tai kai I saw it was about 500 CDN for godan test. But that will vary I am sure.

I also paid 140 a year for registration, 45 bucks for my kyu patch and 45 per grade kyuwise. However I don't see much a prob for that.


----------



## Karasu Tengu

So what's the big deal about $ for Rank?  In most other Mainstream Schools there is a fee for one's test, a fee for certification and licensing, a fee for retest. etc.  So what's the difference if Hatsumi asks for a flat fee and gives someone their rank or requiring fee upon fee at each stage?  If you can't back up your rank then that's a problem for you when the times really counts.  Like Hatsumi was reported as saying- They are Paper Tigers. :asian:


----------



## Greg Chapman

Hi,

I dont pay for grading, although been part of the bujinkan i dont pay for my membership or certificates and i don't think Hatsumi does it just for money, when he gets paid so much anyway.  As for rank has no meaning, i think this was taken out of context, it purely means that memebers do it for the knowledge not just the rank, the rank is a bonus. And Alex Mordine is just a bit of a toublemaker.


----------



## Greg Chapman

Just one more thing,

Shadow hunter, do you actually have experience in Ninjutsu as i see on your profile you seem to train in MANY martial arts, or are these just the books you have read on the toilet?

It looks like you are only missing a couple to become the oracle of all martial arts!!


----------



## Kreth

> _Originally posted by Greg Chapman _
> *I dont pay for grading, although been part of the bujinkan i dont pay for my membership or certificates...*


Um, If you're not paying your membership dues, then you're not a Bujinkan member...

Jeff


----------



## Greg Chapman

I have got to disagree there, there are loads of people who do not send money to Japan but are still members, its not the same as other clubs where if you dont pay, you dont train, you can walk into the dojo's and just train, he does not expect everyone to be members, its just nice if you are.  As for certificates, i got my 6th kyu one just for the hell of it so i got at least one to lok at, once i get to black belt then i will get Jap membership and every certificate.


----------



## Kreth

You're missing the point. If you aren't paying dues to Japan, then you are not a Bujinkan member. You may be a member of your local dojo, but that's a different story...

Jeff


----------



## Greg Chapman

Its good enough for me, my teacher is a registered shidoshi with the bujinkan, he teaches me bujinkan, i learn the knowledge, that's good enough for me, i belong as much as i need to and it doesnt cost me anything, now wasnt the thread about Hatsumi and not me??? Kreth, can i ask you if you are here just to try to flame posters as all of your postings on martialtalk seem to be confrontational?


----------



## Kreth

> _Originally posted by Greg Chapman _
> *Kreth, can i ask you if you are here just to try to flame posters as all of your postings on martialtalk seem to be confrontational? *


I just tend to be blunt when people start throwing out inaccurate information as fact. 

Jeff


----------



## Greg Chapman

Tell me how i am using incorrect info, all i am doing is telling people of my experience in the bujinkan, this is not forcing my ideals onto someone its simply saying that i do not pay the honbu, why is that incorrect?


----------



## Jay Bell

It's very simple, Greg.  To be a member of the Bujinkan requires dues.  If you do not pay those annual dues to the hombu, then you are not a member, regardless if you study in a Bujinkan dojo or not.


----------



## Greg Chapman

but again you are stating that i am giving out incorrect info, i am not, i am just stating my circumstances which are true and of my opinion, that does not make the incorrect!


----------



## Kreth

> _Originally posted by Greg Chapman _
> *although been part of the bujinkan i dont pay for my membership or certificates...*


This is incorrect info. If you do not pay dues, you are not a Bujinkan member.
Not to mention the "facts" you've been stating as gospel over in the other thread...
And, btw, opinions can most definitely be incorrect.

Jeff


----------



## Shadow Hunter

> _Originally posted by Greg Chapman _
> *Shadow hunter, do you actually have experience in Ninjutsu as i see on your profile you seem to train in MANY martial arts, or are these just the books you have read on the toilet?
> 
> It looks like you are only missing a couple to become the oracle of all martial arts!! *



I think I can forgive your breaking of the rules about friendly discussion because I realize how hard it must be on you for me to be proven totally right.

When I first said that Hatsumi gave out ranks just to make a little extra cash everyone tried to shoot me down by saying that he does not even charge for ranks over fifth. Now we know that I was right and all those who argued with me were wrong.

And it seems that you personally do not even know how dues are collected in the Bujinkan.

I suppose that there must be a lot of people clutching their ranks and screaming, no- this rank _really does_ mean somthing! I _am_ special!!! 

You have my sympathy.


----------



## Kreth

> _Originally posted by Shadow Hunter _
> *When I first said that Hatsumi gave out ranks just to make a little extra cash everyone tried to shoot me down by saying that he does not even charge for ranks over fifth. Now we know that I was right and all those who argued with me were wrong.*


Actually, I believe it was pointed out that some are charged for their ranks, and some are not. I personally know of one judan who was not charged for any of his ranks after godan, but taking a page from your book, I'm not going to bring his name into this discussion.

Jeff


----------



## pknox

Keep in mind that ranks above Godan are best understood in the context between Soke and the person who the rank was given to.  As for the charge for the rank, I would believe that would be at Soke's discretion at well.  Also keep in mind that while the fees required for some Dan ranks may be higher than in some schools (some, not all), there is no official testing below Godan, so that is something to take into consideration in the long term.

Bujingodai:
I realize you are now with an independent org, but keep in mind that the Bujinkan Hombu respectfully requests that tuition and fee info is not supposed to be posted, partly because these charges can vary depending on where you train.  However, thank you for the info.

Kreth:
I do not know of the actual case you speak of, but possibly the individual and Soke Hatsumi had a special arrangement in regards to the cost?  He does have the ability to do such a thing, and I would not be at all surprised to find that it has happened in the past. 

Greg Chapman:


> Its good enough for me, my teacher is a registered shidoshi with the bujinkan, he teaches me bujinkan, i learn the knowledge, that's good enough for me



I understand your sentiment, but don't you feel that the organization that is the source of these techniques deserves their due (or dues, in this case) as well?  If you were a teacher, and one of your students was teaching someone else your techniques without your knowledge, and without giving you any compensation, how would you feel?  Also, is your teacher _currently_ registered (if you are not sure, just ask him to show you his most recent Shidoshi-kai card)?  Just because he achieved the Shidoshi title once is not a guarantee he still has it  in the eyes of the Bujinkan.  If he is not a current member, he may also not be privy to anything "new" coming out of the hombu dojo in regards to techniques and principles (not new techniques as far as age, just as far as emphasis).  Just so you know, if your teacher is a current Bujinkan member (i.e. he is in the Shidodhi-kai), and you plan to test within the Bujinkan, when you go to test for 5th dan (which very well may be with Soke himself), you may have a bit of an issue providing documentation of your previous ranks - if, however, he runs an independent dojo, than this may not prove to be an issue, as you would not be testing at hombu.  This may not be of concern to you, but I figured it was information you should have.

Also, if at all possible, let's try to keep everybody's "toilet habits", including their preferred reading selections while so engaged, out of this.  For those who are interested, I'm sure rec.martial-arts has plenty of information on the topic already.


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## Rod Coulter

Wow, talk about a volatile thread, but also very interesting to see.. I hate to see what happens in the Bujinkan after Hatsumi passes away!! 
As far as my personal experience goes, I know that Hatsumi does give Ranks below godan, and above godan for no fee, and he also does charge for them, they are handled on a case by case basis. Now considering he charges aprox. $30us to train in his Dojo and about the same to train at the Budokan, we can can deduce that he/or the organization, is making some good money. Not sure how many of the people posting here have actually been to Japan and had the pleasure of being tossed around by Soke or not, but it is well worth the trip all politics aside. A large group of the Candians just got back from Japan this month and One of them recieved his Godan, on that day 7 others did as well in a room of 85, and each of them did have to pay for this. But also one of the group recieved his 9th and did not have to pay for this and actually he has not had to pay for a rank since I believe his San Dan, and I believe this is due to his relationship with Soke, so that said once agian it is a case by case basis. So what is wrong with making money in the Arts?? Now there are at least 2 issues here, now the problem seems to be unqualified people receiving the ranks, and this I have seen myself and yes it is even spoken about within the Bujinkan and has actually caused numerous problems, which Nagato Sensei is persoanlly working to clear up and admits himself that many Students should have at least 3 dans taken away, so can we get inside Hatsumi's mind and understand why he ranks the way he does?? No, we can only guess and pretend we have the answers. I do know he has gifted ranks, and he has "sold" ranks.
As far as why don't all these 6th Dan and above players come on this thread and announce what they paid or did not pay .. It was stated earlier, well most likely cause they don't either care too, don't know about this thread/site or wish simply to remain silent.

Let the ego's go, speak from fact, own experience and not from 2nd hand information that you may no nothing about. Let's try and understand that this is Hatsumi's organization and if he wants to rank someone or charge someone then he has full right to do so.

Once again I do know from personal experience the rank you may be given may not be the one you actually have attained, but are in the process of growing into. Only because I have played with 10th dans who move worse then some green belts.


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## arnisador

An article on him from a U.K. paper may be found here:
http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23504


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## Dale Seago

> _Originally posted by Shadow Hunter _
> *He may accuse Hatsumi of being motivated by business, but the fact that you pay 30,000 yen is just a fact. Talk to Dale Seago, Bill Atikins, Mark O'Brian Ralph Severe or anyone else that has the "nosebleed ranks" and ask them if they had to pay for ranks over fifth dan. Go ahead, I dare you.*



Two things about this:

1)  The printed material provided to every shidoshi giving costs for uniform patches and other merchandise items from the hombu, ranks, etc. establishes specific fees to have ranks registered and menkyo issued. It also establishes a fee for 5th dan and all higher grades.

2)  That being said, Sensei may also waive that fee if he feels like it and has done so. I can't answer for the other shidoshi mentioned above, but I paid the registration fee for godan and a number of ranks above that. On the other hand, more recently I've received menkyo as gifts, with specific instruction not to pay for them.

So I've paid for some ranks after being informed that I was being promoted, and I've had some ranks simply given to me. The only thing I've never done is ask for one.


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## r.severe

A few points in my opinion,

One, you can have a license in the Bujinkan Dojo, one being Bujinkan Dojo Ninpo Taijutsu the other Bujinkan Dojo Budo Taijutsu and NOT be a PAYING member to the Bujinkan Dojo membership ordeal. I feel that most of the ranking in the Bujinkan Dojo in my opinion has been for development of the Hombu Dojo and other such endeavors as the world growth of the system under Hatsumi sensei. 

Two, you should not teach the Bujinkan Dojo system if you are only a grade student or to yondan in the Bujinkan Dojo with out being a shidoshi-ho under a shidoshi in the Bujinkan Dojo and call it Bujinkan Dojo ryugi - methods. 

Three, you can teach the Bujinkan Dojo system as you were given the license of godan - shidoshi to do so without having a Bujinkan Dojo membership. My opinion in reason you can do anything with your training you would like as long as you do not lie about what you have or haven&#8217;t done or been trained to do or have the experience in confessing to. 

Four, having a membership means nothing in the Bujinkan Dojo other than you have given someone some cash for a card and the right to say you are a member. If so please let me know. I have personally never gotten anything from being a member for 18 years. Hello?

Five, the Bujinkan Dojo American shidoshi-kai has never done anything for me as a student of the Bujinkan Dojo or helped in my training in any way. I have never seen anything from being a member or heard of anything being done to support the wholesomeness of the Bujinkan Dojo in American in any way. 

Six, you should never use the name of Hatsumi sensei, Bujinkan Dojo or Bujinkan Logo for your own personal ranking license in regards to the system of the Bujinkan Dojo or Hatsumi sensei is concerned.

Seventh, you should not reproduce the Bujinkan Logo for your own self-interest or money gains without written permission from The Bujinkan Dojo.

Eighth, everyone with a license from Hatsumi sensei is a student of Hatsumi sensei. In my opinion.. It doesn&#8217;t mean anything to say you are a personal student of Hatsumi sensei. 

Ninth, I cannot say one way or another if these human beings can fight.. but these are a few remarks.. I know personally the Seago shihan passed the shidoshi test wonderfully. I was watching. Regardless of his feelings towards me and remarks about the path I walk, he is a very skilled martial person. Atkins shihan is also a very skilled martial person. M O Brian has a great deal of information and experience.  

That's all..

ooopps sorry,
I have paid for ranking in the Bujinkan Dojo... for these promotions only, nidan(88), sandan, hachidan(92).. Hatsumi sensei did not ask me for fees nor did anyone else for the other ranking.
Unlike Seago shihan, I have written Hatsumi sensei and asked him to test me at the 2002 taikai. Bud shihan and Ed shihan helped me with that request I made to Hatsumi sensei, kudan(02).

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## shirobanryunotora

nbcdecon said:


> I have talked with several people students and nonstudents say Hatsumi-san is the man his skill is unreal. But some of his students say he gives black belts out to shame you into training harder. Has anyone heard the same?


in a way and in short-yes he does-refer his comments in "secrets from the ninja grandmaster"with sk & r hayes:e.g.pg18-"method is referred to as sakizuke...give a person a higher rank than what he or she deserves...good way of motivating.."-this is somewhat standard jap.culture method etc and is what soke hatsumi is used to etc-also am aware he sometimes gives out grades and such as "presentos"for good deeds within bujinkan


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## shirobanryunotora

Hi to all-after reading through the comments concerning this issue am aware this is a somewhat touchy subject however the following should be kept in mind.Historically the ninja had no gradings.Am not sure whether prev.Soke Takamatsu used a grading system.From what i understand Soke Hatsumi began with something along the lines of Green or Red belt(Male or Female) for student gradings and Black Belt for Dan gradings. This then evolved into Kyu gradings for students and BB for Dans.It should be noted here too (for those who insist that Soke is "simply" fundraising etc) that the Kyu grades are rarely used in japan even though this method would increase funds for Hombu Dojo.                                                                  Ok think that covers the general history. Now for my opinion on the current debate.                 Does Soke H. give grades to encourage growth into that grade? Yes.                                 Does Soke H. give grades as "presentos"? Yes.                                                               Does Soke H. give grades to raise funds? Yes.                                                                Does Soke H. give grades to those at that level? Yes.                                                     So,as can be seen Soke Hatsumi gives grades for many reasons.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              All those debating the issue are correct from each particular perspective and yet not correct overall.In other words we are all chasing our tails whilst headbutting the wall.This issue is present in many martial arts.On a personal level we would all like to think or believe our grade is deserved.From others perspective this may not be the case.Is there a final word that can be SPOKEN to resolve this issue? No, there is no such word.We must accept the decision of Soke and continue training.If we cannot accept Soke's decision then stop training. His reasons are many and his to make.The continued growth of ninpo appears to be the final reason.I can live with that.NINPO IKKAN.


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## Bruno@MT

shirobanryunotora said:


> (for those who insist that Soke is "simply" fundraising etc) that the Kyu grades are rarely used in japan even though this method would increase funds for Hombu Dojo.



A minor point here, and without being judgemental: how long does it take to get the Bujinkan BB in Japan?

I've heard figures of 1 - 2 years being realistic. If this is true then it doesn't really make sense to run through 10 kyu levels in that time. It would mean 1 exam ever month and a half. That really doesn't make sense. Especially since there is no fixed curriculum so there is nothing tangible to distinguish the test for 4 months vs the test for 6 months. and kyu levels are much less expensive than BB levels, so from a monetary pov, having no kyu levels and 15 dan levels makes the most sense for raising money.

Again, not making a judgement here. Just pointing out that the lack of kyu levels does not mean anything, one way or another, regarding that specific point of the argument.


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## shirobanryunotora

Bruno@MT said:


> A minor point here, and without being judgemental: how long does it take to get the Bujinkan BB in Japan?
> 
> I've heard figures of 1 - 2 years being realistic. If this is true then it doesn't really make sense to run through 10 kyu levels in that time. It would mean 1 exam ever month and a half. That really doesn't make sense. Especially since there is no fixed curriculum so there is nothing tangible to distinguish the test for 4 months vs the test for 6 months. and kyu levels are much less expensive than BB levels, so from a monetary pov, having no kyu levels and 15 dan levels makes the most sense for raising money.
> 
> Again, not making a judgement here. Just pointing out that the lack of kyu levels does not mean anything, one way or another, regarding that specific point of the argument.


Hmm-not sure-guess each case would have to be looked at individually-the grading time would be up to Soke Hatsumi(or whoever doing the grading)-was just trying to emphasize that kyu gradings are not often done in japan and so whilst they could raise funds if used they tend not to be-yep understand about higher costs for BB being more cost effective so to speak-as for my BB-i sat for it after i think two months in japan and some 6+yrs in oz with Ed Lomax(also 2?seminars with W.Roy/S.Revnak and lil training with Andrew MacDonald etc)


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