# Linking Martial Arts..........



## jkd friend (Jul 30, 2008)

Any thoughts on linking MA to Chiristanity.:asian:


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## Nolerama (Jul 31, 2008)

If you find spirituality in MAs, then that's great. If you find religion in MAs, then you might just be a little gullible. The next step is to drink the Kool Aid.

IMHO.

But you have a choice to see things that aren't really meant to be there. I think Choson Ninja (or whatever he calls himself) links his Christianity to his MA.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Jul 31, 2008)

Martial arts can help you with the charastics of fostering morals and other manners. How you use that to enhance yourself in your religion is up to you. There are many people who do not belong to a religion but find a sense of moral compass and secruity from Martial arts.

Because Martial arts is able to adapt and holds building blocks we can use it to enhance what ever we choose. In the end if you stop trying to link things together and let it develop naturally things will be as they always been.


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## terryl965 (Jul 31, 2008)

Well since Martial Arts was around before Christiananity would that not be hard to do. I believe if you are talking about the moral aspect goes hand in hand with it then you are probaly right.


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## tshadowchaser (Jul 31, 2008)

Spirituality can be found in many places and can be related to many things by those looking for such a link.
I have actually know more people that stepped away from the Martial Arts because they found themselves born again into Christianity than I have seen people find a reason to say it was a Christian thing to do


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## girlbug2 (Jul 31, 2008)

I certainly see no conflict in being both a martial artist and a christian. In some ways, studying MA has enhanced my spiritual life in unexpected areas. Often I suddenly recall verses from the bible that apply to principles I learn while training, such as Hebrews 12:1.."let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us."

Another view is that Jesus created all things, which would include the martial arts (John 1:3). James 1:17 reminds us that "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning." So the wisdom which underlies all martial arts is God's, a gift to man.


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 31, 2008)

jkd friend said:


> Any thoughts on linking MA to Chiristanity.:asian:



I know some clubs did this in the 70's and 80's. They worked just fine with their target audience. But when it became more difficult because of competition these clubs seemed to either close or move towards targeting the market they were after with programs they wanted to pay for.


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## MartialArtHeart (Jul 31, 2008)

I think they go hand in hand, because we learn the martial arts, not to hurt others, but to protect them and ourselves.  Christianity, at its roots, is a common sense thing- Jesus urges us to grow in wisdom, and my wisdom says that we need self-defense in the modern day world.  The martial arts also teach Christian values.  And also "Christianity" may be a younger "religion", but the truth dates back to the beginning of time.


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## Kacey (Jul 31, 2008)

There are some easy ways to link martial arts and religion, that's true - many MAs and many religions teach morality, proper behavior, responsibility, discipline, etc.  I know that there are clubs that link Christianity (and sometimes other religions instead or in addition) with martial arts - and that's their choice; it's not something I would choose, especially as, being Jewish, it will really cut short my potential student base  - and I know there are some people who refuse to try MAs because of some of the practices, especially in TMAs, such as bowing to the flag and each other, which conflict with their religion, and non-violence, which can also conflict with learning how to fight.  

For an individual, certainly, you can find ways to link your MA training and your religion if you so desire - but I prefer to leave that to the individual, and keep it out of the dojang.


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## stickarts (Aug 1, 2008)

Kacey said:


> For an individual, certainly, you can find ways to link your MA training and your religion if you so desire - but I prefer to leave that to the individual, and keep it out of the dojang.


 
Thats my feeling too.


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## Tez3 (Aug 1, 2008)

I was talking to one of the Gurkha soldiers here the other day and I asked him if there was any martial arts native to Nepal, he answered no because their religion (they are mostly Hindu) forbade violence. I sort of looked at him and he grinned then said thats why they try not to fight they just prefer to kill people outright. I was speechless for once! 
Picking up on a comment of girlbugs, I'm not being disrespectful but I don't think even Christians believe it was Jesus who created everything, I think if you believe, it's G-d who did?
I always find it amusing when people say they can't do bowing as handshaking as a greeting is a fairly modern thing, not so long ago European and American men would bow when greeting someone while women would curtsey. The bows and curtseys wouldn't be deep ones but were done for politeness, accepted and acceptable to everyone.


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## JustAVisitor (Aug 1, 2008)

I have nothing against New Cuisine, but mixing fries in miso soup does not sound such a good idea... One can always argue that, all in all, it is food all the same and it is edible and it will feed you but... honestly does it make sense and does it taste good? My perspective on this is that you have to be a chef to really figure out a tasteful mix...


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## JustAVisitor (Aug 1, 2008)

Many martial arts already have a religious foundation. Some do very well without. Why would you want to change that?  
Finding, following and understanding a MA path is difficult enough. I would not mix it up, dilute it, blur it with an religion alien to the art.


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## MartialArtHeart (Aug 1, 2008)

It should be up to the individual- but that is with everything.  What should not be up to the individual, as far as lifestyles and matters of opinion go?  By saying it should be up to the individual, you are saying nothing, because you believe that everything should be up to the individual.  So does God, as a matter of fact... that's why He gives us free will.  Oh, and Tez, just a heads up... God DID create everything, but Jesus is a part of God.  Saying "His Son" is just our interpretation of their relationship because we really don't have the words to describe their real relationship.  Just like saying "He" in general- we don't have a better word to describe a God that is neither male nor female, except maybe "it", but I think most, both Jewish and Christian, would be opposed to calling God "it".


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## Tez3 (Aug 1, 2008)

MartialArtHeart said:


> It should be up to the individual- but that is with everything. What should not be up to the individual, as far as lifestyles and matters of opinion go? By saying it should be up to the individual, you are saying nothing, because you believe that everything should be up to the individual. So does God, as a matter of fact... that's why He gives us free will. Oh, and Tez, just a heads up... God DID create everything, but Jesus is a part of God. Saying "His Son" is just our interpretation of their relationship because we really don't have the words to describe their real relationship. Just like saying "He" in general- we don't have a better word to describe a God that is neither male nor female, except maybe "it", but I think most, both Jewish and Christian, would be opposed to calling God "it".


 

I'l have you know that G-d is an Englishman and we don't talk about it very much, not the done thing you know? 
The normal expression is to say G-d created everything, because it says In the beginning G-d not jesus.
Incidentallly why do people use the Latin name Jesus when as a Jew his name was Joshua? Just curious


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 1, 2008)

jkd friend said:


> Any thoughts on linking MA to Chiristanity.:asian:


 
Any thoughts on this....no...or at least none that wouldn't get filtered out by the profanity filter

Been there done that bought the t-shirt and the coffee cup and am really tired of the whole spirituality in MA thing.


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## girlbug2 (Aug 1, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> The normal expression is to say G-d created everything, because it says In the beginning G-d not jesus.
> Incidentallly why do people use the Latin name Jesus when as a Jew his name was Joshua? Just curious


 
In the new testament, specifically John 1 it begins as follows:" In the beginning was the Word, and _the Word was with God and the Word was God_. He was in the beginning with God. *All things* were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made."

For those not up on NT theology, the Word is Jesus. Thus, all creation did come through Jesus (if you are a christian professing to believe the bible, that is).

Many christians do not realize this, but it is in fact what the bible says.

On your other question, I don't know why we dont' all call Him  Joshua, but I have observed that every culture gives Him their own version of His name. Ease of pronounciation? Somehow, I don't think He minds.


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## ArmorOfGod (Aug 1, 2008)

Putting the specific religion of Christianity aside and just going with the general concept:
One's religion/god is hands down the first and primary part of one's life.  With that in mind, every aspect of your life should reflect the belief in that God.
So, yes.  If a person is Christian, their martial arts should reflect that.  If one is Jewish, their martial arts should reflect that.....
If you have parts of your life that don't show the God you believe created everything, then something is wrong.

AoG


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## ArmorOfGod (Aug 1, 2008)

jkd friend said:


> Any thoughts on linking MA to Chiristanity.:asian:


 
Are you aware of the countless martial arts associations that are Christian based?  Examples: Karate For Christ www.karateforchrist.com , Christian Martial Arts Assoc www.christianmartialarts.com , Black Belt For Christ , World Christian TKD Federation, etc.
The list goes on forever....

AoG


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## thardey (Aug 1, 2008)

Depends on what you mean by linking.

If you mean that I'm going to start doing a Bible study, and then demonstrate the kata that clarifies this type of teaching, then, no - that it inserting meaning into the kata that wasn't there in the first place.

However, if I am doing a study on the "Armor of God" (The stuff in Ephesians 6, not our dear friend on the board.) Then I may borrow my sister's replica Gladius and give some history on exactly what is understood by the sharpness of the "Two edged sword."

That is, I may use Marital Arts to help demonstrate, or understand spiritual principles, but not the other way around.

I will certainly use my Spiritual beliefs to guide my use of Martial Arts, but not the other way around.

As for practicality, I've already discussed that on this thread . . . :angel:




Tez3 said:


> I'l have you know that G-d is an Englishman and we don't talk about it very much, not the done thing you know?
> The normal expression is to say G-d created everything, because it says In the beginning G-d not jesus.
> Incidentallly why do people use the Latin name Jesus when as a Jew his name was Joshua? Just curious



I think it's to set "Jesus" apart in history. Y'know, that guy, Jesus, who was apparently born to Mary and Joseph Christ.

I remember when that fake tombstone came out in the news about "James, the brother of Jesus." When it really said, "Jacob, the brother of Joshua."

But, the meanings behind the words are still the same.


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## jkd friend (Aug 9, 2008)

I want to get pass the moral linking and look farther into link like the buddist do. They are pass that moral linkage and are into the spiritual link, thats what I am try to get to with MA and christianity.:asian:


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 9, 2008)

You want a link like a Buddhist would have then stop looking; it is all the same thing. 

What is is.


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## MartialArtHeart (Aug 11, 2008)

Clever, but not quite right, IMO.  Buddhists just accept life how it is, and that's it.  They live simply, which I LOVE, but they don't feel the need to search for anything more.  Well, Christians want and believe in something more- I think that calls for a martial arts style that emphasizes perseverance, self sacrifice, integrity, and indomitable spirit.


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 11, 2008)

MartialArtHeart said:


> Clever, but not quite right, IMO. Buddhists just accept life how it is, and that's it. They live simply, which I LOVE, but they don't feel the need to search for anything more. Well, Christians want and believe in something more- I think that calls for a martial arts style that emphasizes perseverance, self sacrifice, integrity, and indomitable spirit.


 
If this was to me, I do believe we said the same thing, if this was to jkd friend then I do believe we agree.

Eastern culture tends to look at all things as part of the whole western culture tend to compartmentalize

What I was saying was if ones goal was to look at this from the perspective of a Buddhist, stop looking, there is no need it is already there and that is all


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## kamishinkan (Aug 11, 2008)

I have always looked for the links (or applied my own) between my martial training and the spirituality I follow (Chrisitanity). I believe they go hand in hand, just as many spiritual systems that have been "attached" to the martial arts over the years do.
   As far as Christianity being much "younger", I am not sure I agree. If you believe Christianity started A.D. and was basically built on and in Rome, than I understand it being much younger, BUT, If you see NT Christianity as a "Messianic" continuation of the OT Hebrew religion of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob than it becomes MUCH older all of a sudden.


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## MartialArtHeart (Aug 11, 2008)

we westerners do tend to look at tiny details, don't we?  Personally, I believe that the big picture is bigger than we can comprehend, so any attempt to see the "big picture" is really compartmentalizing in disguise.  Disguising our uncertainty with "wisdom".  That's what most of us do.


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## MartialArtHeart (Aug 11, 2008)

kamishinkan, I agree.  "Christianity" is young in name, but it started with Creation.  Jesus fulfilled the prophecy in the OT, he didn't abolish it.  Therefore, "Christianity" the belief is as old as faith and time.  After all, Jesus was born a Jew, was he not?


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## Tomu (Aug 12, 2008)

> Buddhists just accept life how it is, and that's it. They live simply, which I LOVE, but they don't feel the need to search for anything more.


 
Wow, your knowledge of buddhism and how "simple" it is, is truly amazing.


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## MartialArtHeart (Aug 13, 2008)

haha, thanks for that insight. 

Edit:  I've read as many, if not more, books on buddhism than on any other religion... which is kind of sad considering that my beliefs align with those found in the Bible.   Anyways... I understand the basic concept.


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## hkfuie (Jan 3, 2009)

MartialArtHeart said:


> we westerners do tend to look at tiny details, don't we? Personally, I believe that the big picture is bigger than we can comprehend, so any attempt to see the "big picture" is really compartmentalizing in disguise. Disguising our uncertainty with "wisdom". That's what most of us do.


 
That's what makes it such a struggle, eh?  That the big picture is bigger than we can comprehend?

So how do you just let it be and let go of the struggle with trying to define and label everything and compartmentalize it?

I guess you stop asking questions?  Just experience the wonder and mystery of it?  Get the brain out of the way?  Or let the questions be questions without answers?

Maybe it's the same as getting the brain outta the way when sparring.
(This is how I link my spirituality with martial arts.  But if I try to do that FOR my students, well, then I stop their own spiritual growth, don't I?)

I know that I am so not qualified to teach spirituality.  So when I teach martial arts, I have decided to just stick to the art as it was taught to me.  But I try to give the space for students to teach themselves.

I have had studetns write essays before and my favorite ones are the ones where students write about the lessons they have learned in martial arts.  Funny thing is, they usually give me the credit for teaching them the lesson, but most often I was not aware of teaching the lesson.  So I think the students really taught themselves.


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## Tez3 (Jan 3, 2009)

MartialArtHeart said:


> kamishinkan, I agree. "Christianity" is young in name, but it started with Creation. *Jesus fulfilled the prophecy in* *the OT*, he didn't abolish it. Therefore, "Christianity" the belief is as old as faith and time. After all, Jesus was born a Jew, was he not?


 

Well Christians believe that, it's not a fact to many of us who either believe something else or believe nothing, stating it as a fact may be a little strong for a lot of us!

Jesus was born, lived, preached and died as a Jew, something that often gets forgotten. Everything he did was Jewish, the way he ate, prayed and every aspect of his life. He was circumcised as a Jew and kept the Covenant. He wasn't just born a Jew, *he was a Jew*!


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 3, 2009)

hkfuie said:


> That's what makes it such a struggle, eh? That the big picture is bigger than we can comprehend?
> 
> So how do you just let it be and let go of the struggle with trying to define and label everything and compartmentalize it?
> 
> ...


 
Questions are fine... just don't label them or try and put them in categories; Religious questions, non-religious questions, life questions, work questions, martial arts questions...they are all just questions


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## GBlues (Jan 3, 2009)

I personally have a few very strong opinions on some things that have been said. First and foremost you can not link martial arts with christianity. Goes against the teachings. You never hear Jesus( Aka. Joshua) say, " Peter grab that sword and lop that guys ear off." Instead when he does do just that, Jesus rebukes him for it, and tells him to put his sword away. That, that is not the answer. Course on the othere side of the court, Jesus also says, " That in those days a man will have to sell his coat and buy a sword." Hmmm.....kind a contradiction to me. Furthermore there is a point in the NT where the pharisees, or perhaps the saducees are trying to capture Jesus, and the bible says, " and they could not touch him", always kind of reminded me of Aikido. 

My second point is if jesus and god are one and the same, why then when asked does he always reply with, " I am god's son." Even those that tried to do him worship he would say, " Do not do that. I am not deserving. THere is but one God, and he is your father in heaven." Why is that? COuld it possibly be that he really was just god's son? Does god or Jesus care what you call him/them? Absolutely. My name is Nicholas, I don't want to be addressed as Nathan, or Noel. It's not my name, and to do so is disrespectful to me as person and human being. How much more so to god? Did he not tell the Israelites that they only had one god, and no others? Does not his name mean Jealous? Did he not say, " I am a jealous god, and you shall have no gods before me, for my name MEANS Jealous"? If you opened a prayer with, "With dear heavenly father JOHN", you think god is going to answer. Well, I wouldn't you must be praying to a god named John, not me. Get the picture?

My third contention is that there is actually quite a debate going on in christianity, concerning the words Jesus, and Joshua. In those days, Joshua was a very common name. It was to many peoples belief his name. Not jesus. Matter of fact in the original texts the name Jesus is nowhere to be found. However, Joshua was, and repeatedly. I believe it is pronounced Yeshua. The english equivalent is Joshua. Now, many people do not know this but when King James had the first bible written, gods name was actually taken out of the bible some 6,000 times. Why is that? Many people believe that Jesus is actually Satan, and that the word Jesus was used to replace Joshua. They believe that the whole NT is a fallicy that was written by the devil. A very interesting theory. On top of that the history channel brought out something that has plagued me for some months now. About the forgotten books of the bible. Jesus tells, the pharisees at one point, " Truly I say to you, someone greater than even Solomon stands before you now." So check it out. I looked up the Testament of Solomon on the internet not that long ago, ( need to finish it actually), but the very first page shows a picture of a pentagram. It was the insignia on the ring that the angel gives him, that he might command the demons to build god's temple. HOw funny. But a pentagram, is not something that you associate with the god of christianity. Definitely for most christians myself included deserves further study. What say you now, about all the questions that have been asked in previous posts. I think it's pretty interesting stuff myself
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





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## Tez3 (Jan 4, 2009)

GBlues said:


> I personally have a few very strong opinions on some things that have been said. First and foremost you can not link martial arts with christianity. Goes against the teachings. You never hear Jesus( Aka. Joshua) say, " Peter grab that sword and lop that guys ear off." Instead when he does do just that, Jesus rebukes him for it, and tells him to put his sword away. That, that is not the answer. Course on the othere side of the court, Jesus also says, " That in those days a man will have to sell his coat and buy a sword." Hmmm.....kind a contradiction to me. Furthermore there is a point in the NT where the pharisees, or perhaps the saducees are trying to capture Jesus, and the bible says, " and they could not touch him", always kind of reminded me of Aikido.
> 
> My second point is if jesus and god are one and the same, why then when asked does he always reply with, " I am god's son." Even those that tried to do him worship he would say, " Do not do that. I am not deserving. THere is but one God, and he is your father in heaven." Why is that? COuld it possibly be that he really was just god's son? Does god or Jesus care what you call him/them? Absolutely. My name is Nicholas, I don't want to be addressed as Nathan, or Noel. It's not my name, and to do so is disrespectful to me as person and human being. How much more so to god? Did he not tell the Israelites that they only had one god, and no others? Does not his name mean Jealous? Did he not say, " I am a jealous god, and you shall have no gods before me, for my name MEANS Jealous"? If you opened a prayer with, "With dear heavenly father JOHN", you think god is going to answer. Well, I wouldn't you must be praying to a god named John, not me. Get the picture?
> 
> ...


 

Jush a small point, the King James version of the Bible is only one of many, his was the first to be printed in English and was for the Church of England. There had been Bibles around long before he did that.

According to this, Christians used to use the pentagram.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentagram


Who exactly believes Jesus was the devil? I don't believe he was the Messiah but I doubt he was the devil. I've never heard anyone express opinions he was the devil. I know there are groups who believe John the Baptist is actually more important and they were persecuted for it in the past. The Mandaeans are one.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandaeanism


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