# Lucid Dreaming...



## taitsechien (Feb 25, 2008)

feb 25 2008
first all i guess i should explain lucid dreaming... its when your asleep but have control of your dreams... simply put...
i don't know if this has anything to do with my tai chi training but its the only connection i can make...
today i took a nap... and suddenly i found myself feeling awake... looking at a room that was obviously not the one i fell asleep in... although i could tell i was dreaming to some degree, it felt much different... l laid in bed for awhile... but i decided to get up and explore this new room... i could really feel my body moving i could feel my self taking these steps... but i was still in reality in bed... asleep... i then returned to bed and decided to try and really wake myself up... this is were it got a little scary and i still feel a little uneasy... i couldn't wake myself up automatically... i eventually did really wake up... i looked around my real room... and realizing what just happened tried to go back to sleep and see if what just happened really happened... and i fell right back into this strange sleep... this time in a different room laying in bed... i got up again and felt my every movement even though i was still in bed in real life... i even threw some punches in this dream world... i then laid down and tried to really wake up again... the same thing happened and i couldn't wake back up... i remeber thinking i can't even make any noise so my roommate can come and wake me up... actually kinda terrifying... i did wake up obviously, unless i'm in a sleep state now 
the reason i posted this here, is because one of my sifus that i trained with for a long time mentioned an art of meditating that leads to the ability to lucid dream... and earlier today i was practising tai chi outside finally... while i was laying in bed getting ready to take a nap i thought i could feel my chi very much moving about in my dan dien*sp... 
so what does everyone think... should i just seek help... or did i have some sort of breakthrough..?


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## Jade Tigress (Feb 25, 2008)

I've had several lucid dreams in the past. I wasn't trying to, but I know the feeling of telling yourself to wake up and you can't. I don't know if your tai chi training has anything to do with it. I've never heard of tai chi training associated with lucid dreams before. There are lots of things you can do to increase the frequency and control of lucid dreams. A search on the internet will turn up tons. I suppose lucid dreaming can be fun if you learn to really control your dream actions, but for me they've just been freaky because even though I knew I was dreaming, I wasn't at the point of being able to control the events in my dream to the point of having fun with it. I'm not sure what I think of lucid dreaming. From the involuntary experiences I've had with it, I'm not too interested in trying to have more. Maybe if the dreams were pleasant I'd feel differently about it. 

I'll tell you a funny story about a guy I trained with at my previous MA school. When he was in high school he learned how to lucid dream and told me and our Sifu about the "dream police". He of course had hormones running wild at that age and learned that he could control his dreaming with girls. So, one time he dreamed that he was in a mall. He was walking around the mall grabbing girls butts, copping feels, and the "dream police" approached him in the mall and told him to stop doing that! He said it freaked him out a bit and he stopped trying to lucid dream after that. He thought, and I agree, that his morals were invading his subconscious. Anyway, the way he told it was very humorous and interesting to hear the control he was able to obtain in his dreaming before his subconscious reprimanded him.


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## taitsechien (Feb 25, 2008)

thats way funny...
maybe it was just a coincidence... but  like you say, its really freaky... i had just enough control to move around but i couldn't wake up, and thought i would never... it would be interesting to get good enough at lucid dreaming to maybe train in your sleep kind of a strange idea... who knows...


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## newGuy12 (Feb 25, 2008)

I once read a book about how to have an out of body experience (OBE).  I did many exercises to try to invoke this state.  So, one day I came home and went right to sleep, for a nap.

During that time, I dremt that I was VERY HIGH up in the air.  I could feel the air and see some kind of mountains with trees below.  I woke up suddenly in a COLD SWEAT!  That was the end of reading that book.  None of that for me.


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## Jade Tigress (Feb 26, 2008)

newGuy12 said:


> I once read a book about how to have an out of body experience (OBE).  I did many exercises to try to invoke this state.  So, one day I came home and went right to sleep, for a nap.
> 
> During that time, I dremt that I was VERY HIGH up in the air.  I could feel the air and see some kind of mountains with trees below.  I woke up suddenly in a COLD SWEAT!  That was the end of reading that book.  None of that for me.



I used to have really weird experiences with OBE when I was in high school. It used to scare the crap out of me. Regularly, when I'd just start drifting off to sleep, I'd feel like I was lifting out of my body toward the ceiling. It was a very real feeling of floating slowly outward of my body, a kind of pulling up and away from it. 

I used to have to make a conscious effort to pull myself back and wake up for a while. It was the weirdest, scariest feeling and I never really expected it. It would just happen. Eventually it stopped and I haven't had that experience since. I didn't know what it was happening at the time, but I've since learned about OBE's and figure that's what it was.


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## thardey (Feb 26, 2008)

I've been able to control my dreams since I was a kid. In fact, I thought it was a regular part of dreaming, it was so common. It was only later that I found out that most people "ride along" in their dreams, not drive them.

Some of the most fun I've had come in dreams where I'm being chased, or fighting or something. Then just as I start getting bored I pull out  . . . . A _TOMMY GUN!_ a'la The Mask.

They end up quite like cartoons after a while. I would realize I'm dreaming, and then I would think . . . so, if I'm dreaming, then I could make a huge Ice cream truck show up. Sure enough, then I would hear the music of the truck coming up the road. Or whatever my mood was. Because of that, I've never had a nightmare. It would be like the Big, Hairy Monster chasing Bugs Bunny.

One time I impressed myself that my sub-conscious had designed a puzzle for me to follow. It took me all night to decipher the clues left in my dreams, and find the solution, all the while knowing I was dreaming. And I was simply amazed at how crafty my sub-conscious could be.

I can also tell when I'm falling asleep. That is, I am conscious of when I start dreaming. Right at that moment when logical thoughts start turning to nonsense. I go, cool! I'm asleep! Often I wake myself up when I do that, though. It's annoying.


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## Jade Tigress (Feb 26, 2008)

You are quite unique in your history of being able to do this without "training" it. You are also lucky to have fun with it. Which to me, would be the goal of lucid dreaming. Do you dream like that every night, and do you have a choice whether to lucid dream or "ride along"? 

I wonder if lucid dreaming has any effect on the "restfulness" of sleep. IIRC, dreaming occurs in the REM state of sleep and you need REM sleep to feel rested. (I think, I could be remembering the sleep stages incorrectly here).
Anyway, if so, and your mind is "working" rather letting your subconscious "work things out" are you still rested? Or is even better to lucid dream and gain control of those subconscious dilemmas? 

I find this to be a fascinating subject, along with the topic of dream symbols. I have often had very disturbing dreams which I've looked up the main themes with dream dictionaries. It's surprising how often the dictionaries accurately interpreted what was going on in real life for me based on the symbols in my dreams.


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## thardey (Feb 27, 2008)

Jade Tigress said:


> You are quite unique in your history of being able to do this without "training" it. You are also lucky to have fun with it. Which to me, would be the goal of lucid dreaming. Do you dream like that every night, and do you have a choice whether to lucid dream or "ride along"?



I remember the first time I took control. I was about 6 years old, and kept dreaming about monsters chasing me. I think I told my mom about it, and she said "Just imagine them as something not scary." So I did. The next time they started chasing me, I turned them into stuffed animals!

Another dream, about the same time, involved me on roller skates at the top of a steep hill. Just as I would pick up enough speed to be dangerous, I would get scared and wake up. Finally I decided not to wake up, because I couldn't get hurt in a dream. So I didn't, and in the the dream, found the courage to keep going because I knew I would be fine. That's what started it.

I don't remember most of my dreams, but it's pretty rare that, of those I do remember, I wasn't conscious that I was dreaming. Usually I "ride along" until I get bored, at which point I think most people simply start a new dream, that's when I take control. It's like suspending disbelief while watching movies. You know at any time you can hit pause or whatever, but you still get wrapped up in it.



> I wonder if lucid dreaming has any effect on the "restfulness" of sleep. IIRC, dreaming occurs in the REM state of sleep and you need REM sleep to feel rested. (I think, I could be remembering the sleep stages incorrectly here).
> Anyway, if so, and your mind is "working" rather letting your subconscious "work things out" are you still rested? Or is even better to lucid dream and gain control of those subconscious dilemmas?


I'm a very deep sleeper, and I usually remember/lucid dream when I'm sleeping the hardest. Almost like there's a deeper sleep than REM (Rapid eye movement - which is your eyes trying to look at stuff in your dreams). It's almost like self-hypnosis or something. It takes a long time to wake up from, and sometimes I have to fight to wake up, unless there's somebody talking to me, or touching me, or something.

But yeah, I've worked out many problems during my sleep -- sometimes physics-related, but more often spiritual questions. Not theology, but spirituality in my own life. You know, those things that you can never really explain to someone else.



> I find this to be a fascinating subject, along with the topic of dream symbols. I have often had very disturbing dreams which I've looked up the main themes with dream dictionaries. It's surprising how often the dictionaries accurately interpreted what was going on in real life for me based on the symbols in my dreams.


I believe that dreams are usually your mind re-interpreting your life through a different story. Kind of like your sub-conscious telling parables to yourself. I think the lucid part is just where you consciously find an answer to this "new" story, and do something about it while still dreaming. It makes it easier to do the same thing in real life, because you've already tried it once, in your dreams, and it worked okay then.

I've never had any kind of Out-Of-Body dreaming, nor am I really interested in it. I much prefer dreams about flying. (especially after scuba diving!) You can travel the world quite easily, and you don't freak yourself out. 

I know that some people associate lucid dreaming with more of a spiritual awareness, like the out-of-body stuff, and I don't know. But even as a kid, when this started, I was was more spiritually aware than most kids. Even as an adult, I've been called a "prophet" by several individuals in unrelated circumstances. But I don't know if that's related to dreaming or not. There's no tangible link that I've noticed.

My sister can do it, too, but not as often. She thinks it has to with strong willpower. You simply have the will to hijack your own dreams. Could be, we're both very strong-willed. She'll hijack them when she doesn't like where the dream is going, where I'll just do it for kicks.


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## Ceicei (Feb 27, 2008)

I also do lucid dreaming and always have since I was little.  I always remember exactly what I dreamed about, because I was able to manipulate these dreams.  Only in few situations do I just "ride along" without attempting to manipulate these dreams--these are the regular dreaming and they have a different feel.

It wasn't until of recent times I discovered that many people do not remember their dreams, let alone lucid ones.

Some of these lucid dreams are where I will try out different scenarios and see what the possible consequences/outcomes could be depending on what, who, and where (in effect, replaying but putting in different variables).  Sometimes I can see the potential of physical consequences and spiritual consequences.  They all do have mental consequences as my physical body reacts as if I actually had the experience (heart rate, adrenaline, calmness, emotions, etc).  The thing is, I know when I am in a dream in spite of my physiological responses and can stop and change it at any time.  Hard to explain though...

The fun part is when I actually may select one of my previously dreamed scenarios and do this in real life and see how closely my premise of consequences may end up in comparison with the real thing.  Doing this also shows me whether I know or understand the people / circumstances / situations well enough to gauge the responses and results that may happen.  It isn't "de javu" in the sense as people describe it, but pretty close.

- Ceicei


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## LuzRD (Feb 27, 2008)

thardey said:


> I'm asleep! Often I wake myself up when I do that, though. It's annoying.



i know exactly what you mean!! i havent been able to dream lucidly without waking up since i was a kid.  

one thing that come to mind from recent times (in the last year or so) is a couple events where i could see what was around me even though my eyes were closed. (yeah i know how that sounds lmao) only happened where i was completely familiar with my surroundings (in my small house, im sure that if i were somewhere unfamiliar this wouldnt have happened (not successfully anyway lol)).
this has happened when i was so tired that i couldnt keep my eyes open without really fighting, and i think i was somehow having a lucid dream about my surroundings to trick me into thinking that i was still awake (??). 
for instance one night it was very dark, all the lights were out and i walked to the bathroom with my eyes closed but i could see everything around me as if i was dreaming about my hallway and kitchen. i didnt notice i was doing this until i turned on the bathroom light and it hit me that i was seeing everything as if it were mid day not midnight and opened my eyes. 

sounds like sleep walking to me, but if you "woke me up" i wouldve told you that i was already awake, and knew where i was ,and what i was doing. i just might not have realized that i was walking around with my eyes closed lol

maybe lucid sleepwalking? 
maybe im just weird?


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## SageGhost83 (Feb 27, 2008)

That is very interesting. Tai Chi helps acheive lucidity? Yet another reason for me to seek out a Sifu to teach me Tai Chi :asian:. I have had many lucid dreams and I agree - they sure are fun. I remember many places that I have been to and drawn many pictures of them while in waking state. I have also done many things like ride a tornado out on the countryside kite surfing style. I have had many disturbing instances too - one time I dreamt that the world was ending and I became lucid and actually experienced it. I woke with my heart literally about to beat out of my chest, and I wasn't in a hurry to get back to sleep. It is interesting that the subject of OBE was brought up, too. I have had many of those, and from my experience, they are an entirely different animal. While lucid dreaming, I am in control, but most of the stuff is not very plausible and I can teleport to anywhere at will. While having OBE I would be fully awake and alert, and I would be in the same room that I fell asleep in. Sometimes, I can even see my sleeping body still in the bed, even though I am standing upright or hovering in the air. It is like being awake in the real world while your body is asleep. I remember walking out of my room and through the house watching my family members and listening to their conversations. Then I would "wake up" and comment on their conversations. Of course, they would look at me in complete surprise because I was supposedly asleep in another part of the house while they were having such conversations :wink2:. Tai Chi helps with these things? Well, then I certainly hope to find a Tai Chi Sifu very soon.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 27, 2008)

Lucid dreaming is pretty neat and I have on occasion had them but after almost 17 years in taiji and almost 14 in traditional Yang style I do not think they are connected.


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## SageGhost83 (Feb 27, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> Lucid dreaming is pretty neat and I have on occasion had them but after almost 17 years in taiji and almost 14 in traditional Yang style I do not think they are connected.


 
*sigh* I understand. 17 years? That is awesome! I would still love to get into Tai Chi (Yang, Chen, Wu, it doesn't matter), myself. It is amazing :asian:.


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## ggg214 (Feb 27, 2008)

i have no such experience.
lucid dream may have the other name as soul out of body(ling hun chu qiao)?
if so, i only know that with special training like siting crosslegged, it may happen.
but my master, who has more than 20 years qi gong practise,told me it's very dangerous. it's easy to fly away and never come back. therefore, it needs grandmaster sit beside and call the soul back when necessary.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 28, 2008)

SageGhost83 said:


> *sigh* I understand. 17 years? That is awesome! I would still love to get into Tai Chi (Yang, Chen, Wu, it doesn't matter), myself. It is amazing :asian:.


 
IMO there are a lot of very good and very cool reasons to get into Taiji and none of those have anything to do with Lucid Dreaming. Go for it find a good teacher and train; Chen,  Zhaobao, Yang, Wu, Wu/Hao, Sun, etc. its all good 

CORRECTION
Almost 17 years, I was thinking I am a year older than I actually am when I posted last night. 

And you know, I am not sure if I should be happy that I am a year younger than I was thinking when I posted or very concerned that I forgot how old I was :uhyeah:

But yet I got the almost 14 right :uhoh:.... :anic: :uhyeah:


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## thardey (Feb 28, 2008)

ggg214 said:


> i have no such experience.
> lucid dream may have the other name as soul out of body(ling hun chu qiao)?
> if so, i only know that with special training like siting crosslegged, it may happen.
> but my master, who has more than 20 years qi gong practise,told me it's very dangerous. it's easy to fly away and never come back. therefore, it needs grandmaster sit beside and call the soul back when necessary.



Sitting beside you was required for the old days, now he can call you back on his spiritual cell phone! 

"Can you hear me now?" "Good!"


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## taitsechien (Feb 29, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> IMO there are a lot of very good and very cool reasons to get into Taiji and none of those have anything to do with Lucid Dreaming. Go for it find a good teacher and train; Chen, Zhaobao, Yang, Wu, Wu/Hao, Sun, etc. its all good


you don't think that there is any connection between the complete control of your body from taiji and the complete control of your mind through lucid dreaming... i believe that the practise of taiji leads to many things, mainly inner understanding (and an ability to control your self from head to toe... from heaven to root)... so it just seems that eventually your mind would be become able to transcend accepted logic... and maybe control dreams... out of body experience... i don't know i'm not nearly as practiced as you are in taiji... but... i don't know... just making connections in my life...


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 29, 2008)

taitsechien said:


> you don't think that there is any connection between the complete control of your body from taiji and the complete control of your mind through lucid dreaming... i believe that the practise of taiji leads to many things, mainly inner understanding (and an ability to control your self from head to toe... from heaven to root)... so it just seems that eventually your mind would be become able to transcend accepted logic... and maybe control dreams... out of body experience... i don't know i'm not nearly as practiced as you are in taiji... but... i don't know... just making connections in my life...


 
Like I said



Xue Sheng said:


> I do not think they are connected.


 
That does not mean that are or are not it means that based on my experience I do not believe they are. I have never trained with any Sifu that even mentioned it but then again I never asked about it either. 

Many have lucid dreams without Taiji see the posts by thardey, I doubt he had trained much Taiji by age 6 but I could be wrong.

And controlling the conscious mind and the unconscious mind are IMO very different things. Controlling the unconscious mind for lucid dreaming is big in Tibetan Buddhism but not, from my experience, in Taijiquan

All martial arts are about control of the mind to various levels and if there is a connection between Taijiquan and Lucid dreaming then it should also be there for Baguazhang which is similar in approach and possibly Xingyiquan and Yiquan as well and higher levels of just about any traditional CMA they all end up doing the same thing in the long run. 

Also if there is a Taijiquan connection to lucid dreaming I would think that just about ALL real live Qigong practitioners could do it as well. 

If it works for you that is great, dont let me stop you but IMO there is no connection.


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## thardey (Feb 29, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> Like I said
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I could lucid dream _long_ before any martial arts training. My sister does it, and she has none, but she rides horses.

The _only_ connection I could see (I don't do Taiji, or Tai Chi, or whichever, BTW, but do Chun Kuk Do, which is a hybrid art.) is that while focusing on what I was doing with my conscious mind, I could separated it from my sub-conscious mind, and learn to tell the difference. That _might_ make it easier to manipulate the sub-conscious, but I'm far from sure. 

Of course you can do all kinds of stuff to accomplish that. Shooting guns, wood or metal working, braiding rope, hiking, playing music, riding horses, scuba diving, praying, and dancing are some of the other things I've done to achieve that state.

In the long run, lucid dreaming is O.K., but it does nothing for my life that I can see. It's kind of like knowing card tricks - it's fun, and unusual, but not that novel. If you want to to Taiji, do taiji! If you want to learn to lucid dream, then simply take control of your next bad dream! (Of course, to me, it's that simple!) I don't really see where it would be worth it to spent time and money doing Taiji _so that_ you can lucid dream, it's a pretty long shot.

Besides, who knows if pursuing lucid dreaming will be a detriment to achieving it! The beauty of the whole thing is that your sub-conscious does the work, not your conscious thought.


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## Quotheraving (Mar 1, 2008)

I've always thought of lucid dreaming as follows:

In the process of being aware in normal (waking) consciousness the mind/brain constructs an internal simulation based on the information supplied it by the senses. What we see as being real and out there is in-fact a mental simulation, a neurological virtual reality.

In normal dreaming, elements of our awareness and the capacity to simulate environments and experiences are activated in a piecemeal fashion giving rise to fragmented images and scenes with an incomplete sense of 'self', that is that there is no great separation of internal states from external perceptions and these hallucinations aren't fitted into any kind of conscious framework, such as: "I am looking at the coffee cup I'm holding, my coffee cup, the brown one that my girlfriend bought for me, I am sitting here feeling happy and I can feel it's weight and the texture of the ceramic". Rather they occur in a disjointed fashion such as; A brown mug. Replayed memory of Girlfriend smiling. Memories of birthday. Unwrapping christmas presents... e.t.c.

The primary difference between these two examples is there isn't just the vision of the cup or the associations with past history, there's also an overarching self to which these events are attributed in different ways.

In a lucid dream the brain/mind acts in much the same way as it does while awake, it constructs a simulated environment e.t.c. but like a normal dream this environment is imagined, however unlike a normal dream the brain is also sorting through this information and relating elements together through the use of a 'self', which ties together the normally fluid dream 'experiences' into something that can seem just as real as waking.


And yes I've had more than my share of em.


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