# KOMS meeting in la, ca.



## msmitht (Feb 15, 2011)

Spent 3 hours on Sunday night with the new kkw president. Had an interesting time with mixed feelings about some of the masters/gms there. Rather than give a full blown account of what went on I will sum up the important details.
1. The kkw will be making dvd's and manuals for curriculum in tkd schools. Good for the art but don't think many will like changing their existing curriculum. I like it. One standard for all.
2. Starting 2012 you will not be able to process kkw certs unless your school is a koms member and you have attended a master instructor course. That was made perfectly clear.
3. The korean masters do not want americans school owners to join. I was the token white master. There was one black, 3 mexican and one armerian master there. We had our own translator as the meeting was in korean. There were 90 korean masters/gms present. The announcement on the ctu events page was the only thing in hangul. This was supposed to be about unifying tkd! Shame on them. The kkw officials even wondered where the american masters were.
4. Get ready for more seminars
5. All of the korean masters from my town did not like it when they saw me having coffe with the kkw president. My late gms friends spotted me and invited me to join them. Little did i Know who else was there. Good thing I bowed low


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## Tony49 (Feb 15, 2011)

Interesting...


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## IcemanSK (Feb 15, 2011)

Maybe I'm dense, but what is KOMS?


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## msmitht (Feb 15, 2011)

IcemanSK said:


> Maybe I'm dense, but what is KOMS?



Kukkiwon overseas management system. If you have processed kkw certs within the last 6 months they have included an application.


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## terryl965 (Feb 15, 2011)

So they are just gonna tell all these Master's that they no longer can play because they did not go to an course? I guess things are going to go downhill for alotof people.


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 16, 2011)

I see the number of independent clubs growing. A lot of higher ranked people and school owners I meet are very nice people but are also very set in their ways and dont like being told what to do. If I had taught a curriculum for years and years and produced good quality students and then I was told to change what I teach or how I teach it there would eventually come a point where I would snap. I suppose schools who teach and develop competitive fighters have little choice though, because being a part of larger orgs goes with the territory.


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## msmitht (Feb 16, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> So they are just gonna tell all these Master's that they no longer can play because they did not go to an course? I guess things are going to go downhill for alotof people.


Yes. It is their reputation that they are trying to fix. They will be offering more courses and take a more active role in promoting TKD unity. Things will only go downhill for those who do not meet basic standards. Why would anyone complain that they do not want to go to a master instructors course? Are they above learning? Is it really that hard to become a student again? Or are their pocket's too full and bellies too fat? I have made it to 2 masters courses, 6 poomsae seminars and 5 coaching/referee seminars in the past 3 years. I only have one assistant and I can do it.


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## msmitht (Feb 16, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I see the number of independent clubs growing. A lot of higher ranked people and school owners I meet are very nice people but are also very set in their ways and dont like being told what to do. If I had taught a curriculum for years and years and produced good quality students and then I was told to change what I teach or how I teach it there would eventually come a point where I would snap. I suppose schools who teach and develop competitive fighters have little choice though, because being a part of larger orgs goes with the territory.


Then let them go. I don't see it happening that way though. The standard techniques to be taught will most likely be less than what most require and probably more than what few teach. They are not looking to radically change all of the schools. They just want all first dan/poom to know the same basic techniques (other than poomsae/kyoroogi) like self defense, one steps, PROPER basic's and give a proven method of teaching it. What is not to like? If masters/GM's think that it is too simple than add more but do not take away. If what they give is too hard then you need to train harder.
As far as being told what to teach and how to teach it, it is the KKW that certifies WTF TKD schools. If you dont need or want their certs then do not conform to the new standards when they come out. I will enjoy having less competition 
It is up to them to set the standard, not you or any other school owner/Master/GM/Supreme Gm or whatever! True that they have been absentee parents til now, but no more.


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## msmitht (Feb 16, 2011)

msmitht said:


> Spent 3 hours on Sunday night with the new kkw president. Had an interesting time with mixed feelings about some of the masters/gms there. Rather than give a full blown account of what went on I will sum up the important details.
> 1. The kkw will be making dvd's and manuals for curriculum in tkd schools. Good for the art but don't think many will like changing their existing curriculum. I like it. One standard for all.
> 2. Starting 2012 you will not be able to process kkw certs unless your school is a koms member and you have attended a master instructor course. That was made perfectly clear.
> 3. The korean masters do not want americans school owners to join. I was the token white master. There was one black, 3 mexican and one armerian master there. We had our own translator as the meeting was in korean. There were 90 korean masters/gms present. The announcement on the ctu events page was the only thing in hangul. This was supposed to be about unifying tkd! Shame on them. The kkw officials even wondered where the american masters were.
> ...


  To clarify #3....
I was referring to Korean masters in America. The KOMS official was prepared to give speech in english but, as I stated, there were only 6 of us who could not speak Korean.


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 16, 2011)

msmitht said:


> Then let them go. I don't see it happening that way though. The standard techniques to be taught will most likely be less than what most require and probably more than what few teach. They are not looking to radically change all of the schools. They just want all first dan/poom to know the same basic techniques (other than poomsae/kyoroogi) like self defense, one steps, PROPER basic's and give a proven method of teaching it. What is not to like? If masters/GM's think that it is too simple than add more but do not take away. If what they give is too hard then you need to train harder.
> As far as being told what to teach and how to teach it, it is the KKW that certifies WTF TKD schools. If you dont need or want their certs then do not conform to the new standards when they come out. I will enjoy having less competition
> It is up to them to set the standard, not you or any other school owner/Master/GM/Supreme Gm or whatever! True that they have been absentee parents til now, but no more.


I can fully appreciate where they are coming from and if it creates some consistency then it can only be a good thing. I just know how stubborn so many school owners are and I can see some of them having a problem with it, particularly belt factories and mcdojos where they just hand out black belts. They are not going to like having to tell little johnny he cant get his black belt in 12 months from white belt. But I suppose these are the clubs they are trying to weed out so its probably for the best. Ego will also get in the way for some I assume. What rank are the guys who take these seminars? Im sure schools looking to potentially hook up and become affiliated are not going to want to send their 8th dans to learn how to do form from 5th dans. I personally wouldnt have a problem with that, I dont have a problem with such things, but there is much ego and stubborness in the martial arts world.


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## msmitht (Feb 16, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I can fully appreciate where they are coming from and if it creates some consistency then it can only be a good thing. I just know how stubborn so many school owners are and I can see some of them having a problem with it, particularly belt factories and mcdojos where they just hand out black belts. They are not going to like having to tell little johnny he cant get his black belt in 12 months from white belt. But I suppose these are the clubs they are trying to weed out so its probably for the best. Ego will also get in the way for some I assume. What rank are the guys who take these seminars? Im sure schools looking to potentially hook up and become affiliated are not going to want to send their 8th dans to learn how to do form from 5th dans. I personally wouldnt have a problem with that, I dont have a problem with such things, but there is much ego and stubborness in the martial arts world.


Any 3rd dan and up can take the Master instructor seminar. You can not get the cert until you pass the physical/Written exam + get 4th Dan (if 3rd).
Both Courses I attended had KKW academy instructors who were 7th, 8th and 9th Dans. If you pick up the Textbook of tkd poomsae, By Kkw, you will see all of the seminar instructors. They are the ones on the dvd and in the pictures. GM park, Jeom beum, GM Hwang, In Sik and others. They are AWESOME!!!
DOWN WITH THE MC DOJANGS AND BELT FACTORIES!!!!!


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## andyjeffries (Feb 16, 2011)

msmitht said:


> Any 3rd dan and up can take the Master instructor seminar. You can not get the cert until you pass the physical/Written exam + get 4th Dan (if 3rd).



Roll on the first course in the UK (I'd love to travel to Korea or the US to do it, but it's not financially feasible at the moment).

I wonder if this KOMS member (check) and certified instructor (not-check) criteria will apply globally in 2012 or just to countries that host that course?


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## msmitht (Feb 16, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> Roll on the first course in the UK (I'd love to travel to Korea or the US to do it, but it's not financially feasible at the moment).
> 
> I wonder if this KOMS member (check) and certified instructor (not-check) criteria will apply globally in 2012 or just to countries that host that course?



They were only discussing schools in the us. I don't think that they will enforce in other countries until seminars offered in said countries, but I really don't know. I am sure a plan is in the works.


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## Tony49 (Feb 16, 2011)

msmitht said:


> To clarify #3....
> I was referring to Korean masters in America. The KOMS official was prepared to give speech in english but, as I stated, there were only 6 of us who could not speak Korean.



Do you know why there where only 6 American Masters there?  Was the word not spread about this meeting?


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 16, 2011)

msmitht said:


> Any 3rd dan and up can take the Master instructor seminar. You can not get the cert until you pass the physical/Written exam + get 4th Dan (if 3rd).
> Both Courses I attended had KKW academy instructors who were 7th, 8th and 9th Dans. If you pick up the Textbook of tkd poomsae, By Kkw, you will see all of the seminar instructors. They are the ones on the dvd and in the pictures. GM park, Jeom beum, GM Hwang, In Sik and others. They are AWESOME!!!
> DOWN WITH THE MC DOJANGS AND BELT FACTORIES!!!!!


Anything that rids us of belt factories will be a good thing.


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## terryl965 (Feb 16, 2011)

msmitht said:


> Yes. It is their reputation that they are trying to fix. They will be offering more courses and take a more active role in promoting TKD unity. Things will only go downhill for those who do not meet basic standards. Why would anyone complain that they do not want to go to a master instructors course? Are they above learning? Is it really that hard to become a student again? Or are their pocket's too full and bellies too fat? I have made it to 2 masters courses, 6 poomsae seminars and 5 coaching/referee seminars in the past 3 years. I only have one assistant and I can do it.


 
No for some it is because they choose to go to there Instructor who they have been training with for years. Others see it as the foriegn people are trying to run us and you know this, while others just find every excuse they can.


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## terryl965 (Feb 16, 2011)

*3. The korean masters do not want americans school owners to join. I was the token white master. There was one black, 3 mexican and one armerian master there. We had our own translator as the meeting was in korean. There were 90 korean masters/gms present. The announcement on the ctu events page was the only thing in hangul. This was supposed to be about unifying tkd! Shame on them. The kkw officials even wondered where the american masters were.
*

This is what brothers me and alot of folks, when you say they do not want any Americans to join. This says they want the money to stay with Korean people, why. If they are looking to really unifieed TKD should they not want all the American Masters here to be a big part of this for them. It looks like the old Hitler thing we are superior and you are nothing.:asian:


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## d1jinx (Feb 16, 2011)

this is how it was during the 80's/90's.  Only certain Korean Masters could promote so they held the market on certifying people.  They district out the state and depending on where you lived, that was the one who gouged you to certify your students.  

This created ALOT of resentment toward Korean Masters and KKW that I saw.  In fact, my fist instructor told them to shove it when the Grand puba decided to tell him he had to be present at testings and wanted his cut on top of the fee for the KKW cert.

Looks like we may be going back to the way it used to be.  


Not if I can Help it.


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## d1jinx (Feb 16, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> *3. The korean masters do not want americans school owners to join. I was the token white master. There was one black, 3 mexican and one armerian master there. We had our own translator as the meeting was in korean. There were 90 korean masters/gms present. The announcement on the ctu events page was the only thing in hangul. This was supposed to be about unifying tkd! Shame on them. The kkw officials even wondered where the american masters were.*
> 
> 
> This is what brothers me and alot of folks, when you say they do not want any Americans to join. This says they want the money to stay with Korean people, why. If they are looking to really unifieed TKD should they not want all the American Masters here to be a big part of this for them. It looks like the old Hitler thing we are superior and you are nothing.:asian:


 

I cant speak for All, only what I seen/saw/knew, but thats how it was during the USTU days (where i was; that I saw) the Koreans ran everything and gave the Americans little or no respect, would not promote to high ranks, charged a fortune for certifying Americans and thier students, gave thier fellow Korean instructors breaks or at cost for certifying, and used it as an Income generator.

So many were pissed when the USAT took over with an American running TKD in the US and soon lost any and all power they had. It was always aout POWER. This sounds like a way to try and regain that power once lost.

AND NO this is not a slam against USTU or a pat on the Back for USAT. I'm not referring to what the ORGs did, I referring to what some people within the ORGs during that era did.


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## d1jinx (Feb 16, 2011)

HEY MSMITHT,
 Did they mention anything bout a List of all KOMS schools being published or being made available?  

Another words, I'm signed up, does my school name appear on a list somewhere that is open to the public or other KOMS schools so everyone can see who is and isnt a member?

If so, this could be useful and bad depending on how you view it.


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## d1jinx (Feb 16, 2011)

And does anyone know about any EAST coast meeting?

Or is this a MAC thing that they are pushing?


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## terryl965 (Feb 16, 2011)

So pretty much if you don't pay there fee's and keep the money with almost nothing but Koreans you are just out of luck. I can see it now the days when people are paying $10,000 for a certificate like the old days. This is jsut a way of them holding the people hostage like gangster's. So many are going to regroup under something else and the KKW will lose alot of members. I for one only see a money making Ideal for a few. This is a way for the KKW to get themself out of money trouble and fleece the flock or maybe I am not reading this thing right. It would be great to see unity if it included all people but it does not look that way only one true American there  and 98% Koreans well welcome to the fun house.


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## Archtkd (Feb 16, 2011)

msmitht said:


> . The korean masters do not want americans school owners to join. I was the token white master. There was one black, 3 mexican and one armerian master there. We had our own translator as the meeting was in korean. There were 90 korean masters/gms present. The announcement on the ctu events page was the only thing in hangul. This was supposed to be about unifying tkd! Shame on them. The kkw officials even wondered where the american masters were.
> 4. Get ready for more seminars
> 5. All of the korean masters from my town did not like it when they saw me having coffe with the kkw president. My late gms friends spotted me and invited me to join them. Little did i Know who else was there. Good thing I bowed low


 
Puunui warned us about this side of the USAT-MAC in another post a few week ago and I almost didn't take it seriously. The big irony here is that many of the USAT-MAC folks were at one time accusing the old USTU guard of being too "pro Korean" and exclusionary.


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## msmitht (Feb 16, 2011)

Tony49 said:


> Do you know why there where only 6 American Masters there?  Was the word not spread about this meeting?


The meeting was promoted through the CTU, a primarily Korean TKD association based out of Los Angeles.


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## msmitht (Feb 16, 2011)

d1jinx said:


> HEY MSMITHT,
> Did they mention anything bout a List of all KOMS schools being published or being made available?
> 
> Another words, I'm signed up, does my school name appear on a list somewhere that is open to the public or other KOMS schools so everyone can see who is and isnt a member?
> ...


Yes, they are goung to create a registry and publish it every year, country by country, state by state.


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## chrispillertkd (Feb 16, 2011)

msmitht said:


> 3. The korean masters do not want americans school owners to join. I was the token white master. There was one black, 3 mexican and one armerian master there. We had our own translator as the meeting was in korean. There were 90 korean masters/gms present. The announcement on the ctu events page was the only thing in hangul. This was supposed to be about unifying tkd! Shame on them. The kkw officials even wondered where the american masters were.


 
Well, I would hope that the visiting KKW officials' "wondering" would translate to telling the Korean-American Masters that they need to do a better job of publicizing things and that the goal is to get everyone affiliated with the KKW on board. But from what you say, it's quite obvious that the problem (for this, at least) resides not with the KKW.



> 5. All of the korean masters from my town did not like it when they saw me having coffe with the kkw president. My late gms friends spotted me and invited me to join them. Little did i Know who else was there. Good thing I bowed low


 
Did you mention the announcement being in hangul on the CTU web site, by any chance? 

Pax,

Chris


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## puunui (Feb 16, 2011)

msmitht said:


> 3. The korean masters do not want americans school owners to join. I was the token white master. There was one black, 3 mexican and one armerian master there. We had our own translator as the meeting was in korean. There were 90 korean masters/gms present. The announcement on the ctu events page was the only thing in hangul. This was supposed to be about unifying tkd! Shame on them. The kkw officials even wondered where the american masters were.




This seems like the anti-thesis of what USTC and President Sang Lee was attempting to do, which was open up Kukkiwon certification to everyone, especially American born practitioners.


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## puunui (Feb 16, 2011)

msmitht said:


> 2. Starting 2012 you will not be able to process kkw certs unless your school is a koms member and you have attended a master instructor course. That was made perfectly clear.




If President Kang is serious about this one, then it will be the death of his Kukkiwon presidency. Too many people are opposed to this, at the highest levels.


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## puunui (Feb 16, 2011)

msmitht said:


> Yes. It is their reputation that they are trying to fix.



There is nothing wrong with the Kukkiwon's reputation that needs fixing. What is wrong is when self serving people use the Kukkiwon for their own personal means. The Kukkiwon special test at US Open is one example that comes to mind.


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## puunui (Feb 16, 2011)

msmitht said:


> As far as being told what to teach and how to teach it, it is the KKW that certifies WTF TKD schools. If you dont need or want their certs then do not conform to the new standards when they come out. I will enjoy having less competition




What is the difference between your attitude and the attitude that you felt was being expressed at the LA meeting? Both are exclusionary, whereas the Kukkiwon was conceived as an inclusionary organization. It is the symbol of inclusion for Taekwondo.


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## puunui (Feb 16, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I just know how stubborn so many school owners are and I can see some of them having a problem with it, particularly belt factories and mcdojos where they just hand out black belts. They are not going to like having to tell little johnny he cant get his black belt in 12 months from white belt.



You just described all of the dojang in Korea. The average time from white to 1st Poom/Dan in Korea is one year, two years to 2nd Poom/Dan.


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## puunui (Feb 16, 2011)

d1jinx said:


> AND NO this is not a slam against USTU or a pat on the Back for USAT. I'm not referring to what the ORGs did, I referring to what some people within the ORGs during that era did.




Yes, it is a slam on USTU because by mentioning the organization's name, you imply that it was the USTU that was behind what you felt was a dirty scheme. In fact, the USTU made Kukkiwon certification more accessable to USTU members by processing them directly at the USTU headquarters, and also by holding USTU high dan promotion tests. And President Sang Lee further opened up the organization to non-Korean members, women especially, by appointing Americans to positions of leadership. If you want to speak about what SOME people did, then address those people individually rather painting with a broad brush by using the USTU name.


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## puunui (Feb 16, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> So pretty much if you don't pay there fee's and keep the money with almost nothing but Koreans you are just out of luck. I can see it now the days when people are paying $10,000 for a certificate like the old days. This is jsut a way of them holding the people hostage like gangster's. So many are going to regroup under something else and the KKW will lose alot of members. I for one only see a money making Ideal for a few. This is a way for the KKW to get themself out of money trouble and fleece the flock or maybe I am not reading this thing right. It would be great to see unity if it included all people but it does not look that way only one true American there  and 98% Koreans well welcome to the fun house.




You are getting all worked up for nothing. Again. This particular meeting was sponsored by a Korean American group of practitioners, so of course most in attendance were Korean American members of that organization. All of the information provided is up on the Kukkiwon webpage and has been up for quite some time. In addition, the Kukkiwon has been calling individual American born instructors for months now informing them of KOMS.  There is no big conspiracy to hide information from you or anyone else, certainly not from the Kukkiwon. People can form their own private groups if they so choose. I am sure you have your own network of Taekwondo people that you associate with, and would feel funny if someone you didn't know and wasn't a member of your group showed up for a dinner and meeting that your group paid for. From my perspective, msmith got the reaction that he did because they probably looked at him like he was a party crasher. The Kukkiwon was probably under the mistaken impression that the CTU was the official state association or something, which explains their surprise.


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## msmitht (Feb 16, 2011)

puunui said:


> You are getting all worked up for nothing. Again. This particular meeting was sponsored by a Korean American group of practitioners, so of course most in attendance were Korean American members of that organization. All of the information provided is up on the Kukkiwon webpage and has been up for quite some time. In addition, the Kukkiwon has been calling individual American born instructors for months now informing them of KOMS.  There is no big conspiracy to hide information from you or anyone else, certainly not from the Kukkiwon. People can form their own private groups if they so choose. I am sure you have your own network of Taekwondo people that you associate with, and would feel funny if someone you didn't know and wasn't a member of your group showed up for a dinner and meeting that your group paid for. From my perspective, msmith got the reaction that he did because they probably looked at him like he was a party crasher. The Kukkiwon was probably under the mistaken impression that the CTU was the official state association or something, which explains their surprise.


Now that you mention it, I did feel kinda like a party crasher. Only thing was that I was invited. The CTU did post it on their web page, in Hongul, for all to see. It is primarily a Korean organization so I guess I should not have been shocked to see that there were not many American masters there.
PUUNUI: I actually cant wait for the curriculum to come down from the KKW. I did not feel that the KKW was excluding anyone. I felt like the CTU, which does have many american masters in its org, was excluding people. And yes, the KKW was prepared to give the speech in english. So it is safe to assume that they thought the CTU was the state org in charge.


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 16, 2011)

puunui said:


> You just described all of the dojang in Korea. The average time from white to 1st Poom/Dan in Korea is one year, two years to 2nd Poom/Dan.


gee, thats fast. Do they train more often than westerners or is it just quicker to get a black belt? We are 3.5-4 years minimum to get 1st degree black belt.


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## puunui (Feb 16, 2011)

msmitht said:


> Now that you mention it, I did feel kinda like a party crasher. Only thing was that I was invited.




Invited by who? The Kukkiwon?


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## puunui (Feb 16, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> gee, thats fast. Do they train more often than westerners or is it just quicker to get a black belt? We are 3.5-4 years minimum to get 1st degree black belt.



I believe they train one hour per day, five days per week. So that is about 250 hours of class time.


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 16, 2011)

puunui said:


> There is nothing wrong with the Kukkiwon's reputation that needs fixing. What is wrong is when self serving people use the Kukkiwon for their own personal means. The Kukkiwon special test at US Open is one example that comes to mind.


You would have to admit that the reputation of tkd in general needs fixing, and if the majority of tkd practitioners are kukki affiliated (which I dont believe, but Im told is the case), then the kukki would have to take some resposibility for that. I commend the fact they are trying to, if thats the case.


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## msmitht (Feb 16, 2011)

puunui said:


> Invited by who? The Kukkiwon?



By the kkw rep at the 21st FIC and the pres of the ctu.


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## puunui (Feb 17, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> You would have to admit that the reputation of tkd in general needs fixing, and if the majority of tkd practitioners are *kukki* affiliated (which I dont believe, but Im told is the case), then the* kukki *would have to take some resposibility for that. I commend the fact they are trying to, if thats the case.




If you are going to intentionally disrespect both the Kukkiwon and me by intentionally referring to the Kukkiwon by an improper name, then I am done talking to you. As far as I am concerned, you no longer exist.


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## puunui (Feb 17, 2011)

msmitht said:


> By the kkw rep at the 21st FIC and the pres of the ctu.



Maybe the CTU president should have told his membership. Do you think that the CTU membership knew you were not a member?


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 17, 2011)

puunui said:


> If you are going to intentionally disrespect both the Kukkiwon and me by intentionally referring to the Kukkiwon by an improper name, then I am done talking to you. As far as I am concerned, you no longer exist.


Thats hillarious. If anyone who uses the term "kukki" on this board doesnt exist to you, then you're going to find it very lonely around here. Where do you think I learnt the abbreviation? I suggest you use the 'ignore' function (assuming there is one)


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## msmitht (Feb 17, 2011)

puunui said:


> Maybe the CTU president should have told his membership. Do you think that the CTU membership knew you were not a member?



I am a member. Have supported their tourneys. Even referee chairman at one. What else?


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## miguksaram (Feb 17, 2011)

msmitht said:


> 1. The kkw will be making dvd's and manuals for curriculum in tkd schools. Good for the art but don't think many will like changing their existing curriculum. I like it. One standard for all.



Please help me here.  I thought they already had a curriculum in place for TKD schools and as long as you met their minimum requirements of the curriculum, you are free to add in whatever else you wanted for your own school.  What will be different now?  



			
				msmitht said:
			
		

> 2. Starting 2012 you will not be able to process kkw certs unless your school is a koms member and you have attended a master instructor course. That was made perfectly clear.


So there will have to be a membership fee now to be part of the KKW?



			
				msmitht said:
			
		

> 3. The korean masters do not want americans school owners to join. I was the token white master. There was one black, 3 mexican and one armerian master there. We had our own translator as the meeting was in korean. There were 90 korean masters/gms present.


Why not?  That seems a bit harsh on the Korean Masters side to state something like that.

It seems like that KOMS will do more harm than good for the KKW.  What is the Korean equivalent of KOMS?  Meaning what do SK TKD Masters have to do that is similar to what KOMS is demanding?


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## miguksaram (Feb 17, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Anything that rids us of belt factories will be a good thing.


The solution is simple.  Give everyone a black belt as soon as they join.  That way the parents won't have to worry about Johnny feeling bad because his friends are getting a new colored belt and he isn't and the student will just focus on learning the curriculum and not on the cloth around his waist.


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## Master Dan (Feb 17, 2011)

msmitht said:


> Yes. It is their reputation that they are trying to fix. They will be offering more courses and take a more active role in promoting TKD unity. Things will only go downhill for those who do not meet basic standards. Why would anyone complain that they do not want to go to a master instructors course? *Are they above learning? Is it really that hard to become a student again? Or are their pocket's too full and bellies too fat? I have made it to 2 masters courses, 6 poomsae seminars and 5 coaching/referee seminars in the past 3 years.* I only have one assistant and I can do it.


 
How wonderful for you that you have the money and time to do all that and I quite agree with continuing education even my GM before he died expounded the need to continue to learn every day for himself. However I have many senior master friends with 30-40 years plus that are adament about KKS can kiss off if they think they are going to make them jump through new hoops to recomend and file applications for rank advancement. 

It is a extreme financial hardship for me to get outside to attend but did anyway and plan to go at lease every two years because it is good for me and wonderful to be around the people who get off thier A----- to attend it is good for my students and I hope to assist other masters and encourage all to attend.

I feel KKW heart is in the right place always teaching with much love and trying to be helpful. But when I hear comments like the author of this forum thread *stating the the Korean Masters do not want the American Masters to join?? That greatly concerns me. *I am going to ask for a clarification of what is meant by this. 

While many good Masters have done a good job for a long period of time here developing good students and creating a legacy of TKD MA there are many who have allowed the root of TKD to dilute to the point of turning out students that to be kind would be to say they are pitiful at best. Also there seems to be a very concerted effort to eliminate influence by the Kwan's or individualized pockets of teaching based on a Pioneer or individual masters methods. I understand and agree with the need to have one consistant standard globaly but to attempt to stomp out loyalty to the master or gm that gave you life and ability seems against the basic philosophy of all MA relationship of master and student/deciple? 

While I understand the different relationship between the WTF and KKW it would seem in KKW best interest to work closer with WTF in forming a joint venture to work with the IOC USOC to form a better NGB in the US to gain better trust, freindship and national participation that would convince senior masters to participate in the reeducation? repatriotation? 

If we are returning to the old days of descrimination between Korean and non Korean practitioners I and many others will have something to say and do and KKW will find its income greatly reduced. 

For now I am going to do the best I can to keep up because it is worthwhile to do.


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## miguksaram (Feb 17, 2011)

puunui said:


> I believe they train one hour per day, five days per week. So that is about 250 hours of class time.



Plus some train as part of their PE class and this does not include any time spent outside the norm or Saturday classes.


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## miguksaram (Feb 17, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> You would have to admit that the reputation of tkd in general needs fixing, and if the majority of tkd practitioners are kukki affiliated (which I dont believe, but Im told is the case), then the kukki would have to take some resposibility for that. I commend the fact they are trying to, if thats the case.


Why should KKW take responsibility?  From what I have heard, if you test at the KKW they are pretty strict in what they do and will fail you.  If you want to blame or have someone take responsibility then we should start with general attitude (at least in the states) of not wanting to hurt someone's self esteem because they didn't pass the first time.  That would be a great start.


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## Master Dan (Feb 17, 2011)

msmitht said:


> Spent 3 hours on Sunday night with the new kkw president. Had an interesting time with mixed feelings about some of the masters/gms there. Rather than give a full blown account of what went on I will sum up the important details.
> 1. The kkw will be making dvd's and manuals for curriculum in tkd schools. Good for the art but don't think many will like changing their existing curriculum. I like it. One standard for all.
> 2. Starting 2012 you will not be able to process kkw certs unless your school is a koms member and you have attended a master instructor course. That was made perfectly clear.
> *3. The korean masters do not want americans school owners to join. I was the token white master.* There was one black, 3 mexican and one armerian master there. We had our own translator as the meeting was in korean. There were 90 korean masters/gms present. The announcement on the ctu events page was the only thing in hangul. This was supposed to be about unifying tkd! Shame on them. The kkw officials even wondered where the american masters were.
> ...


 
*I would like you to explain in detail what you mean by Korean Masters do not wnat american school owners to join?*

Who are these masters? what influence do they have over KKW? Are they Korean?American DoJang owners that realize they will have an advantage over American DoJang owners who will not do the training and recieve the lisence to recomend rank applications? So far the seminars have done a good job of creating an english speaking focus and fair evaluation and instruction for all. I hope we are not going to gravitate to a Korean and non Korean divide like the old days of segreation of equal but seperate??

Please communicate more on this?

I have warned my other friends that if your competitor eventually gains the ability to recieve KKW rank advancment for thier students and you cannot you will have a problem?

There have been far to many low rank people going out on thier own that turned thier back on thier masters and found paper mills to aprove thier applications some may have to eat crow and return to someone who has the training and authority appove thier students?


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## Master Dan (Feb 17, 2011)

msmitht said:


> Any 3rd dan and up can take the Master instructor seminar. You can not get the cert until you pass the physical/Written exam + get 4th Dan (if 3rd).
> Both Courses I attended had KKW academy instructors who were 7th, 8th and 9th Dans. *If you pick up the Textbook of tkd poomsae, By Kkw, you will see all of the seminar instructors. They are the ones on the dvd and in the pictures. GM park, Jeom beum, GM Hwang, In Sik and others. They are AWESOME!!!*
> *DOWN WITH THE MC DOJANGS AND BELT FACTORIES!!!!!*




I would have to agree with you all the people I have seen teaching are top notch and wonderful to be with. I think the end of the Mc Dojangs a Belt factories will come when people realize thier 3rd and 4th dan ranks will not give them the right to test and reocmend for rank advancement unless they pass the written and physical exam for a license in the future? 

While I want to keep up financially it is very hard to travel from my location the large certificate shows an expiration after two years? the hard wallet card does not. It would also be nice to know if any changes have been made to the printed text book before each seminar.


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## Master Dan (Feb 17, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> *3. The korean masters do not want americans school owners to join. I was the token white master. There was one black, 3 mexican and one armerian master there. We had our own translator as the meeting was in korean. There were 90 korean masters/gms present. The announcement on the ctu events page was the only thing in hangul. This was supposed to be about unifying tkd! Shame on them. The kkw officials even wondered where the american masters were.*
> 
> 
> This is what brothers me and alot of folks, when you say they do not want any Americans to join. This says they want the money to stay with Korean people, why. If they are looking to really unifieed TKD should they not want all the American Masters here to be a big part of this for them. It looks like the old Hitler thing we are superior and you are nothing.:asian:


 
This is what concerns me the old crap of the 70's even to the 90's of descrimination against non Korean practitioners they want our money but shun to give equal consideration? I find much of the seminar material and speakers to be nothing new or non essential or to just McDojang oriented but the KKW instructors are great and I go for the people who show up they love TKD and it is wonderful to be around them. 

So far I have seen a majority of 1st to 3rd Dan showing up beyond 6th Dan very little so possibly this trend has changed in the last 12 months but so far I feel a very large majority of senior masters reluctant to bow down and do this. I suppose when it comes to financially do it to compete or go independent it will be interesting to see what happens.


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## msmitht (Feb 17, 2011)

Master Dan said:


> *I would like you to explain in detail what you mean by Korean Masters do not wnat american school owners to join?*
> 
> Who are these masters? what influence do they have over KKW? Are they Korean?American DoJang owners that realize they will have an advantage over American DoJang owners who will not do the training and recieve the lisence to recomend rank applications? So far the seminars have done a good job of creating an english speaking focus and fair evaluation and instruction for all. I hope we are not going to gravitate to a Korean and non Korean divide like the old days of segreation of equal but seperate??
> 
> ...


 
After re reading I realize my words were a bit harsh. The ctu, which was the group that brought the koms speaker and kkw pres, is primarily made up of korean masters. There are many other non koreans in the org, but where were they? The other non koreans there were part of the ctu but all ran schools for/under them(except master aguilar).  The listing on the ctu website had the dinner listed, but in korean. It was the only event not in english.


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## Master Dan (Feb 17, 2011)

d1jinx said:


> this is how it was during the 80's/90's. Only certain Korean Masters could promote so they held the market on certifying people. They district out the state and depending on where you lived, that was the one who gouged you to certify your students.
> 
> *This created ALOT of resentment toward Korean Masters and KKW that I saw. In fact, my fist instructor told them to shove it when the Grand puba decided to tell him he had to be present at testings and wanted his cut on top of the fee for the KKW cert.*
> 
> ...


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## miguksaram (Feb 17, 2011)

Master Dan said:


> This relationship in America is all but gone for alot of reasons and much of it due to bad Masters who did not teach or practice the life style part of the relationship of master/student and only focused on the money side. All of that has come home to roost and KKW if it wants to repair this will have to give much to get much.
> 
> MA in America has been reduced to a shopers market where the buyer thinks they know best and sad to say sometimes they do?



I disagree.  Actually there seems to be more loyal following today than what I remember growing up in the martial arts.  I believe this is due to a couple of things. First American consumers tend to do a bit more homework than before.  So when they find a school that they like they tend to stick with it.  Secondly is because the shift from a more adult oriented activity to more kid oriented activity.  I can only speak as a person starting out in 1980, where there was only one "kid" class available and the rest of the time you worked, sweated and yes...bled, with the adults.  Most Dojos/Dojangs that I heard of or witnessed myself were not quite "kid friendly".  So you had a few loyal adults.  Now that you have kids involved, many instructors (good or bad) build a relationship with the kid and the parents tend to become loyal to that instructor.  And we can definitely see that kid ration taking classes far exceeds the adult ratio taking class even back in the early years.  

I'm actually glad shoppers do homework and I especially love the ones that come in with the know it all attitude, because they are actually the easiest to sell to.


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## Master Dan (Feb 17, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> I disagree. Actually there seems to be more loyal following today than what I remember growing up in the martial arts. I believe this is due to a couple of things. First American consumers tend to do a bit more homework than before. So when they find a school that they like they tend to stick with it. Secondly is because the shift from a more adult oriented activity to more kid oriented activity. I can only speak as a person starting out in 1980, where there was only one "kid" class available and the rest of the time you worked, sweated and yes...bled, with the adults. Most Dojos/Dojangs that I heard of or witnessed myself were not quite "kid friendly". So you had a few loyal adults. Now that you have kids involved, many instructors (good or bad) build a relationship with the kid and the parents tend to become loyal to that instructor. And we can definitely see that kid ration taking classes far exceeds the adult ratio taking class even back in the early years.
> 
> I'm actually glad shoppers do homework and I especially love the ones that come in with the know it all attitude, because they are actually the easiest to sell to.


 

Good points I agree I guess I am more concerned about the ones who know little or nothing and want to interfere with how instruction should be done. 

However the loyalty I am refering to is not parent to Master or child to master but more young adult to adult to master and the responsibility of the master to specifically be responsable for the safety and well being of all his students beyond a financial business only relationship.


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## miguksaram (Feb 17, 2011)

Master Dan said:


> Good points I agree I guess I am more concerned about the ones who know little or nothing and want to interfere with how instruction should be done.



Ahhh...sideline coaches.  Yes we have a few of those at the school.  We have subtle and not so subtle ways to deal with them.  Subtle...we ask them "Don't you have some shopping to do?"...not so subtle "Until I see you in here taking classes and earning a black belt, please do not interrupt my class.  Thank you."


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## puunui (Feb 17, 2011)

d1jinx said:


> This created ALOT of resentment toward Korean Masters and KKW that I saw.



There is another side of this story which many americans do not appreciate or understand, and that is that many of these Korean born instructors face racism every day of their lives. Sometimes it is subtle and other times it is not. I remember for example once we were leaving a Korean restaurant at a USTU event when some drunk white American starting pulling his eyes to make the slanted and made all kinds of racist remarks to the group of Korean born seniors. The seniors tried to ignore him and all got into their cars and left. But that sort of thing. 

Immigrant groups often form associations or band together in an effort to obtain some comfort and security for this sort of stuff. That is why there are little Italy, Chinatown, Koreatown, Japantown, etc. in many cities. Another aspect is the formation of associations or groups such as the Han In Hwe (Korean Associations) which are made up primarily of Korean borns. 

I am not saying that it is ok to discriminate against someone just because you got discriminated against. But there is a reason why ethnic groups form associations, and perhaps why they might feel uncomfortable when people outside their ethnic group shows up to a meeting.


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## Master Dan (Feb 17, 2011)

puunui said:


> There is another side of this story which many americans do not appreciate or understand, and that is that many of these Korean born instructors face racism every day of their lives. Sometimes it is subtle and other times it is not. I remember for example once we were leaving a Korean restaurant at a USTU event when some drunk white American starting pulling his eyes to make the slanted and made all kinds of racist remarks to the group of Korean born seniors. The seniors tried to ignore him and all got into their cars and left. But that sort of thing.
> 
> Immigrant groups often form associations or band together in an effort to obtain some comfort and security for this sort of stuff. That is why there are little Italy, Chinatown, Koreatown, Japantown, etc. in many cities. Another aspect is the formation of associations or groups such as the Han In Hwe (Korean Associations) which are made up primarily of Korean borns.
> 
> ...


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## puunui (Feb 17, 2011)

Master Dan said:


> I feel KKW heart is in the right place always teaching with much love and trying to be helpful. But when I hear comments like the author of this forum thread *stating the the Korean Masters do not want the American Masters to join?? That greatly concerns me. *I am going to ask for a clarification of what is meant by this.



He did clarify it and the issue seemed to resolve itself. Now you are attempting to raise it up again, for whatever reason.




Master Dan said:


> While many good Masters have done a good job for a long period of time here developing good students and creating a legacy of TKD MA there are many who have allowed the root of TKD to dilute to the point of turning out students that to be kind would be to say they are pitiful at best.



Your comment made me think about this one particular practitioner at last year's Oakland course. he claims master rank and I was watching him stumble through sipjin, a form that he obviously never learned. I watched grind in the same mistake over and over, to the point where I couldn't take it and wanted to jump up and correct him. But I let it go, and left rather than continue to watch that painful display. I remember wondering whether he would be teaching that version of Sipjin, which he no doubt will be telling his students he learned at the Kukkiwon Instructor Course that he graduated from. 




Master Dan said:


> Also there seems to be a very concerted effort to eliminate influence by the Kwan's or individualized pockets of teaching based on a Pioneer or individual masters methods. I understand and agree with the need to have one consistant standard globaly but to attempt to stomp out loyalty to the master or gm that gave you life and ability seems against the basic philosophy of all MA relationship of master and student/deciple?



Who is doing that? I am a strong kwan relationship, and no one is asking me to stomp out my loyalty to anyone, certainly not the Kukkiwon.


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## d1jinx (Feb 17, 2011)

puunui said:


> Yes, it is a slam on USTU because by mentioning the organization's name, you imply that it was the USTU that was behind what you felt was a dirty scheme. In fact, the USTU made Kukkiwon certification more accessable to USTU members by processing them directly at the USTU headquarters, and also by holding USTU high dan promotion tests. And President Sang Lee further opened up the organization to non-Korean members, women especially, by appointing Americans to positions of leadership. If you want to speak about what SOME people did, then address those people individually rather painting with a broad brush by using the USTU name.


 
Sorry you feel that way. I knew you to take it that way EVEN though it wasn't so I made sure I clarified that.

You may not associate it this way, but a Large majority of TKD-in will refer to TKD in america as the USTU era, and the USAT era, and whoever else comes next. it is what it is.

And for the record, a few of the Koreans I was speaking of were at one time or another USTU state presidents and other officers within the Org during the USAT era. And no, I will not give names in a public forum to be brought back 10 years from now... the internet never dies.

sorry.


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## d1jinx (Feb 17, 2011)

Master Dan said:


> Going back to a more traditional MA view if you had the honor and privilage of being one of the first promenent students of a Pioneer who was greatly respected and well proven on a global basis the relationship was of love and loyalty for life as long as he lives and to care for him in his old age.
> 
> We owed our lives to him because he saved ours on many occasions literally. So I worked for free paid the additional fees which were not outrageous out of love loyalty and respect. I passed on 100% my student testing fees to him for life untill his passing. I my students and thier students are his legacy.
> 
> ...


 
He wasn't my Instructors GM.  In fact *My* instructors OWED HIM NOTHING.  But do to local politics within the Korean community, my instructor ran a school in that "district" so he needed to go through him to certify *us*. 

There was no direct link that was known.  In fact registration for USTU went through the State pres.  we're talking before internet and shrinking of the world.


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## d1jinx (Feb 17, 2011)

puunui said:


> There is another side of this story which many americans do not appreciate or understand, and that is that many of these Korean born instructors face racism every day of their lives. Sometimes it is subtle and other times it is not. I remember for example once we were leaving a Korean restaurant at a USTU event when some drunk white American starting pulling his eyes to make the slanted and made all kinds of racist remarks to the group of Korean born seniors. The seniors tried to ignore him and all got into their cars and left. But that sort of thing.
> 
> Immigrant groups often form associations or band together in an effort to obtain some comfort and security for this sort of stuff. That is why there are little Italy, Chinatown, Koreatown, Japantown, etc. in many cities. Another aspect is the formation of associations or groups such as the Han In Hwe (Korean Associations) which are made up primarily of Korean borns.
> 
> I am not saying that it is ok to discriminate against someone just because you got discriminated against. But there is a reason why ethnic groups form associations, and perhaps why they might feel uncomfortable when people outside their ethnic group shows up to a meeting.


 
Agreed and understood.


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## d1jinx (Feb 17, 2011)

puunui said:


> ... I remember wondering whether he would be teaching that version of Sipjin, which he no doubt will be telling his students he learned at the Kukkiwon Instructor Course that he graduated from. ..


 

OH GOD so true...  And unfortunately someone observing will pass judgement that "thats what a KKW Master is??????"


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## d1jinx (Feb 17, 2011)

Master Dan said:


> While I want to keep up financially it is very hard to travel from my location the large certificate shows an expiration after two years? the hard wallet card does not. It would also be nice to know if any changes have been made to the printed text book before each seminar.


 
This has been discussed here before.  The KKW cert *Does not* expire.  The USTC does, but *NOT* the KKW license.

Although I agree its a good Idea to go every-so-often, you will not hit 2 years and KKW "expires" your license.


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## d1jinx (Feb 17, 2011)

d1jinx said:


> _And for the record, a few of the Koreans I was speaking of were at one time or another USTU state presidents and other officers within the Org during the *USAT* era. ._


 
DAMN ACRONYMS... 

I Meant to type "_*during the USTU Era*_".  Could not edit or fix it by the time I re-read what i put.


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## dowan50 (Feb 18, 2011)

d1jinx said:


> OH GOD so true...  And unfortunately someone observing will pass judgement that "thats what a KKW Master is??????"



First I was there and know the person he is talking about and he did fine finishing in the top 20% of the people there. Mr. Punni has a personal issue with the Master in question and chooses to go off topic when ever possible to attack him. He not only did fine but was just three weeks out of surgery while Mr. Punni skulked around peaking in. He stayed in the front row and participated 100% through the whole thing. I can assure you the Master in question will not run away and hide like Ray Terry no matter how much slander or juvenile comments he makes. 

On the topic of people not doing well or needing help there were masters/GMs there that could not even take their shoes off and had little or no knowledge of most of the forms. One Korean born Master/GM was stumbling and shaking so bad that many of us thought he would stroke out when he had to demonstrate his form but none of us made fun of him but only supported him in his effort and encouraged him to continue to train and learn. This was the real feeling of the intent of KKW was to include and encourage others to be a part of and learn not to be judgmental or eliminate people.


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## d1jinx (Feb 18, 2011)

dowan50 said:


> First I was there and know the person he is talking about and he did fine finishing in the top 20% of the people there. Mr. Punni has a personal issue with the Master in question and chooses to go off topic when ever possible to attack him. He not only did fine but was just three weeks out of surgery while Mr. Punni skulked around peaking in. He stayed in the front row and participated 100% through the whole thing. I can assure you the Master in question will not run away and hide like Ray Terry no matter how much slander or juvenile comments he makes.
> 
> On the topic of people not doing well or needing help there were masters/GMs there that could not even take their shoes off and had little or no knowledge of most of the forms. One Korean born Master/GM was stumbling and shaking so bad that many of us thought he would stroke out when he had to demonstrate his form but none of us made fun of him but only supported him in his effort and encouraged him to continue to train and learn. This was the real feeling of the intent of KKW was to include and encourage others to be a part of and learn not to be judgmental or eliminate people.


 
I wasn't referring to the "specific" individual Puunui, I wasn't there nor do I know who he was speaking of.  

I was comment more on a general term of individuals "I" have witnessed who attending KKW courses, who were clearly not prepared, took the course, and will return saying "this is how they showed up at the KKW Master Course" having only practicing something that day.

I guess I should've clarified that more.  I have NO idea who he was talking about and wasn't slamming that individual.  Hell, maybe it was me he ment!


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## puunui (Feb 19, 2011)

d1jinx said:


> He wasn't my Instructors GM.  In fact *My* instructors OWED HIM NOTHING.



Actually you still owe him respect even if he wasn't your instructor's instructor.




d1jinx said:


> But do to local politics within the Korean community, my instructor ran a school in that "district" so he needed to go through him to certify *us*.



What I would have done was politely disagree that we needed to go through him and would have explained that because I was a Kukkiwon 4th Dan or higher, that the Kukkiwon allowed me to process Kukkiwon certification directly, either through the USTU or Kukkiwon, whichever I chose. If he still insisted then I would ask my own teacher what the proper procedure was and he would straighten it out. 




d1jinx said:


> There was no direct link that was known.  In fact registration for USTU went through the State pres.  we're talking before internet and shrinking of the world.



Having come from two states where you registered directly with the USTU, I cannot understand this sort of thing. Again, I would politely disagree and simply register directly with the USTU. You don't need the internet to understand that individual membership registration is done individually directly through the USTU.


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## troubleenuf (Feb 19, 2011)

puunui said:


> Actually you still owe him respect even if he wasn't your instructor's instructor.
> 
> Actually I take issue with this statement.  He needs to EARN respect no matter what or who he thinks he is.   Now in a formal setting you have to respect the rank... to a point.  However when that person abuses his position you owe him nothing.


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## d1jinx (Feb 19, 2011)

puunui said:


> Actually you still owe him respect even if he wasn't your instructor's instructor.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

This was in the late 80's early 90's when information was scarce and withheld.  We dont have that problem today.  But then, it was imposible to get any info.  And you are correct, a 4th dan could then, but they didnt know they could or how to, cause no one would talk about it.

But all that has changed.  We wont have that problem ever again.   Even if they do restrict it to KOMS members and KKW Cert Master Instructors Course graduates.


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## Master Dan (Feb 19, 2011)

d1jinx said:


> I wasn't referring to the "specific" individual Puunui, I wasn't there nor do I know who he was speaking of.
> 
> I was comment more on a general term of individuals "I" have witnessed who attending KKW courses, who were clearly not prepared, took the course, and will return saying "this is how they showed up at the KKW Master Course" having only practicing something that day.
> 
> I guess I should've clarified that more. I have NO idea who he was talking about and wasn't slamming that individual. Hell, maybe it was me he ment!


 
He knows exactly who he is talking about. And yes I have witnessed many people who are not prepared or have less skill and knowledge and they are just a small fraction of the general teaching population out thier so if we can inspire them to learn more and train more it is good for everyone. Since the fall of USTU there are many who just stopped or dropped out entirely but they still have value as TKD members and USTC and the KKW want to bring them all back going forward.


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## Grenadier (Feb 19, 2011)

Ladies and gentlemen,

If you don't like what another poster has to say, then *you're always free to put them on ignore.  *

Furthermore, if you see a post that's in violation of the rules, then use the *"report to moderator"* feature.  

I'm going to ask that y'all keep this conversation civil, and on-topic.  

-Ronald Shin
-MT Supermoderator


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## goingd (Feb 19, 2011)

Msmitht, when you say that they will be releasing dvd's with set curriculum for everyone to teach, to what extent do those curriculum go? By that I mean, will the Kukkiwon be requiring that every instructor teach not just the same forms, but the same one-step-sparring and the same self-defense? Is this an effort to enforce the base curriculum that already existed, or is the Kukkiwon trying to expand their base curriculum beyond the poomsae?

Personally, I'm in full favor of getting everyone to follow the same standards for poomsae. There is too much lack of understanding when it comes to forms. However, I'd be a little disappointed if the Kukkiwon started requiring that everyone teach the exact same one-steps and defense techniques. I understand the need to unify technique and ensure that a black belt meets a certain skill set. What I've always loved about Kukki-Taekwondo is that beyond the forms, it allows instructors to expand on the ideas and the techniques in their own way. In my mind, this allows the art to grow more effectively.


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## puunui (Feb 19, 2011)

d1jinx said:


> This was in the late 80's early 90's when information was scarce and withheld.  We dont have that problem today.  But then, it was imposible to get any info.  And you are correct, a 4th dan could then, but they didnt know they could or how to, cause no one would talk about it.



I looked up the USTU promotion rules and regulations from the 1984 handbook and there is a basis for what that grandmaster was claiming. Under the USTU rules, there is a supreme board of examiners as well as regional boards of examiners which had the authority to promote candidates to Kukkiwon dan rank. That grandmaster probably was asserting that all Kukkiwon promotion had to go through the regional board, which he probably was in charge of. The issue though is whether is mandatory to have to go through the regional board.  I would say no and if it was me, I would have again politely declined, stating the reasons why, if he continued to insist, then I would ask my instructor, who would straight the situation out. 




d1jinx said:


> But all that has changed.  We wont have that problem ever again.   Even if they do restrict it to KOMS members and KKW Cert Master Instructors Course graduates.



There are a lot of things going on which I cannot get into. But it is my prediction that the KOMS program will be discontinued, probably within the next 30 to 60 days, if not sooner, maybe as soon as President Kang's return to Korea next week or the week thereafter. 2011 may shape up to be even more explosive than 2010 was for the Kukkiwon.


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## Archtkd (Feb 20, 2011)

puunui said:


> I
> There are a lot of things going on which I cannot get into. But it is my prediction that the KOMS program will be discontinued, probably within the next 30 to 60 days, if not sooner, maybe as soon as President Kang's return to Korea next week or the week thereafter. 2011 may shape up to be even more explosive than 2010 was for the Kukkiwon.


 
Wow! Just when we thought things were settling down.


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## puunui (Feb 20, 2011)

Things are definitely not settling down. The next four or five years will be action packed, with the Muju Park being completed and the IOC determining the permanent sports for the summer games. Things could radically change.


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## andyjeffries (Feb 21, 2011)

puunui said:


> There are a lot of things going on which I cannot get into...2011 may shape up to be even more explosive than 2010 was for the Kukkiwon.



You tease ;-)


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## terryl965 (Feb 21, 2011)

After listening and obseving things this weekend I can only echo what puunui is saying, the **** will hit the fan when the fan is going full speed. I cannot talk about what was said but it was shocking at best.


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## andyjeffries (Feb 21, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> After listening and obseving things this weekend I can only echo what puunui is saying, the **** will hit the fan when the fan is going full speed. *I cannot talk about what was said* but it was shocking at best.



You're a tease too then ;-)

Anyone else want to receive this infamous label by tempting us with their secret knowledge of the future?


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## puunui (Feb 21, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> You tease ;-)




I've more than enough information in posts to where you can figure out in general what is going on. There is no need for specifics at the present time, although it will all come out eventually. It is a particularly sensitive time, dealing with a particularly sensitive issue. If you don't want to be teased then I won't say anything about any of this and let people find out when the official announcements are made.


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## goingd (Feb 21, 2011)

Hm. Kay.
http://www.ustaekwondocommittee.com...A0FB6D17B165356612E69544.mc1?sitePageId=56240


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## Archtkd (Feb 21, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> After listening and obseving things this weekend I can only echo what puunui is saying, the **** will hit the fan when the fan is going full speed. I cannot talk about what was said but it was shocking at best.



You'll not talk about it? I fear for us all.


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## andyjeffries (Feb 22, 2011)

puunui said:


> I've more than enough information in posts to where you can figure out in general what is going on. There is no need for specifics at the present time, although it will all come out eventually. It is a particularly sensitive time, dealing with a particularly sensitive issue. If you don't want to be teased then I won't say anything about any of this and let people find out when the official announcements are made.



I've got a rough sense from things you've said.  Don't take my tease comment to heart, it was just meant in a jokey way (hence the wink afterwards).


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## Dragons TKD (Feb 25, 2011)

msmitht said:


> 1. The kkw will be making dvd's and manuals for curriculum in tkd schools. Good for the art but don't think many will like changing their existing curriculum. I like it. One standard for all.



Sounds like you had a wonderful experience.

Any idea when the KKW will be making these manuals and dvd's?


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## Archtkd (Feb 25, 2011)

puunui said:


> There are a lot of things going on which I cannot get into. But it is my prediction that the KOMS program will be discontinued, probably within the next 30 to 60 days, if not sooner, maybe as soon as President Kang's return to Korea next week or the week thereafter. 2011 may shape up to be even more explosive than 2010 was for the Kukkiwon.


 
I got my KOMS certificate and accompanying frame from the Kukkiwon yesterday couldn't help but think about this post.


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## andyjeffries (Feb 25, 2011)

Archtkd said:


> I got my KOMS certificate and accompanying frame from the Kukkiwon yesterday couldn't help but think about this post.



How did you get a KOMS certificate?  I've been accepted as an individual KOMS member and thought the certificate might be good for advertising the dojang (as our local Karate school has all sorts of this stuff on display and we don't).


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## Archtkd (Feb 25, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> How did you get a KOMS certificate? I've been accepted as an individual KOMS member and thought the certificate might be good for advertising the dojang (as our local Karate school has all sorts of this stuff on display and we don't).


 
The Kukkiwon just sent it to me in a big package through DHL. I wasn't even expecting it. The last I had from the organization a month ago was that they had accepted my registration application and were processing it further.


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## andyjeffries (Feb 25, 2011)

Archtkd said:


> The Kukkiwon just sent it to me in a big package through DHL. I wasn't even expecting it. The last I had from the organization a month ago was that they had accepted my registration application and were processing it further.



OK, maybe mine will also be in the post then


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