# Flow



## KyleShort (Sep 29, 2004)

I am comming up on the end of year one training in Doce Pares (both San Miguel and Multi-style).  At times I have been very regular and there have been times where an entire month has passed with out training due to work, school, family etc.  In the last few days I have felt an urge to really look at my training and listen to what my mind and body has had to tell me about it. Near the close of year one, this is my first reflection...

*Flow* 
If I were to look back at my previous martial arts experience I could certainly identify the virtues of specific aspects of each art.  In bujinkan I learned how to effectively roll the bujinkan way, in wing chun I learned that battles are won through an overwhelming assault of basic chain punches against vulvnerable areas, in kajukenbo I learned that I can kick over my head and in YMCA karate I learned that a camoflauge belt looks better than a purple one.  But the big things that I have learned in Doce Pares supercede the art itself.  They speak to the truth of combat and self, agnostic of the art practiced.

One of the more important things that I have come to understand (through sinawali and sparring) is the concept of flow (I learned this in Wing Chun, but did not fully internalize it).  More specifically, it is OK to make mistakes.  It is ok to get hit (do not confuse this with allowing someone to hit you--it is the difference between dammage control and self delusion).  Most importantly, you should expect to make mistakes and to get hit.  You should expect that your opponent will do the same. Just flow.

Truly internalizing the concept of flow allows you to move past the mental incumberances associated with failure.  "I got hit" *STOP*.  "I missed my target" *STOP* "I was blocked" *STOP*. *HESITATE*. *FAIL*.  Flow tells you to move past this.  It tells you that the fight is not won or lost in pieces, but rather in the aggregate.  Armed with this knowledge you become not a person executing techniques, but a force.  

This understanding has superceded all of my arts.  I may not be the best fighter, or even that good, but I am better now than I was one year ago.  And in truth, I am better at all of my arts because this concept is universal.  Perhaps this applies to all FMA and is the source of calling Modern Arnis the Art Within the Art?


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## Dan Anderson (Sep 30, 2004)

Excellent, Kyle!  Keep it up.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 1, 2004)

Yes, Thats it Kyle!  Keep training hard and all of the
possibilities of the flow, instinctive response, zone etc.
what ever you want to call it will be yours!  Just relax,
and enjoy!  

Brian R. VanCise


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## loki09789 (Oct 1, 2004)

It is hard to observe the difference at times and harder to actually do it, but having the mentallity that you are doing and observing instead of telling and forcing is SOOOO great.  That is the way to work with your body and habits with a healthy training mentallity.  Less 'blame' oriented because of what you 'aren't getting' and more 'what do I do, how do I direct it into either an enhancement or a better habit'  good mental flow to manifest physical flow.


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## GAB (Oct 2, 2004)

Hi Kyle,

Good observation. Where in Sacramento do you train? I train in Elk Grove.

I have been in the martial ars for a long time, I feel that FMA has a lot to offer. Like you said (and very well) the Flow.

Regards, Gary


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## KyleShort (Oct 2, 2004)

I train with Capital Doces Pares in Rancho Cordova (off Sunrise Ave.)


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## newfnshow (Oct 10, 2004)

GAB said:
			
		

> Hi Kyle,
> 
> Good observation. Where in Sacramento do you train? I train in Elk Grove.
> 
> ...



Just curious where in Elk Grove you train in FMA? I also live in Elk Grove.


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## GAB (Oct 14, 2004)

Hi Newfnshow,
I train at Elk Grove Martial arts Acadamy. It is behind the Molding Mill next to the RR tracks on locust.
Hi Flatlander,

Since this thread was already started with the name "Flow" I thought we could continue to talk about the subject.

First I would like to say, there are many concepts and interpretations of the various styles, and systems, in FMA.

My thoughts....Dancing for example, one person or two, Kata's, one person or two, Forms etc.  

To make a statement that Flow cannot be interpreted as the other partner in a form is not correct in my thoughts.

I am familiar with the Tagalog word Agos. In Mark V. Wiley's book it is defined in what, kuntaw lima-lima style (thinks), as going with the force of the opponents strike. 

That can also be thought of as going with the flow of a partner in a drill, but then we get into the idea as to who is leading. Or continually pressing the other, forcing the way the drill is going to go, or going with the other and being submissive for the drill, as in offense and defense if you will.

We are not moving in such a way as to be the winner, we are moving as to learn, train, We all know it does not last long in the actual combat, unless it is sticks then it can go a few rounds. 

Who is in the best shape, no bones broken in the hand that holds the stick, pain tolerance etc.

Just my thoughts. Regards, Gary


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## DoxN4cer (Oct 14, 2004)

GAB said:
			
		

> ...To make a statement that Flow cannot be interpreted as the other partner in a form is not correct in my thoughts....
> 
> ...We all know it does not last long in the actual combat, unless it is sticks then it can go a few rounds.
> 
> ...



I'm not sure where you want to go with this Gary.

The concept of "flow" in the FMA is the ability for deal all variables in the combative equation.  While it can be seen in demonstration, it is an intangible quality and cannot be taught.  It can only be "aquired" or "attained" through realistic training.

FWIW,  real stickfights don't last long... unless the winner is toying with the loser.   

Tim Kashino


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## GAB (Oct 14, 2004)

Hi Tim,
I was in a different thread on techs.

I came over here because Flatlander advised me to.

I was talking about Katas, Forms etc. I included "Flow".

Since we are talking apples and oranges, we need some clarification as to who, has interpreted what, from where, and when??

Regards, Gary

To take a quote and only put what you want in the quote is not correct in my way of thinking either. IMO... G


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## Flatlander (Oct 14, 2004)

OK Gary, let's put it back into context.  
You said in the Kenpo thread:


			
				GAB said:
			
		

> Katas are the basic building blocks of all the arts, call them dances,forms, whatever. That is the way the arts have been saved and handed down for a long time. Time proven. FMA now calls it the flow?


What I was attempting to point out is that in my understanding, the forms or patterns or "kata" are referred to as _anyos_, not "flow".  The discussion at the time was regarding kata or forms.

There are different ways of defining "form" - some interchange that with kata, others use it to refer to proper mechanics and alignment in any movement.  In that way, flow should be comprised of good form, in that the one who is flowing should be balanced, and work with good mechanics.

"Flow" is the continuance of free movement - it is not patterned, rather, it is responsive to what is being fed.  In that respect, it is completely different than kata, yet can contain kata or portions of kata (anyo).

Does this clarify? :idunno: 

Am I inaccurate here, folks? :idunno:


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## The Kai (Oct 14, 2004)

You are on the money with your explanation

Todd


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## GAB (Oct 14, 2004)

Flatlander said:
			
		

> OK Gary, let's put it back into context.
> You said in the Kenpo thread:
> 
> What I was attempting to point out is that in my understanding, the forms or patterns or "kata" are referred to as _anyos_, not "flow". The discussion at the time was regarding kata or forms.
> ...


 
I see where you are coming from, Yes and no. I asked you if drills and flow were a complete picture, you did not address that.

I also clarified my statement.

Regards, Gary


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## The Kai (Oct 14, 2004)

GAB said:
			
		

> I also clarified my statement.
> 
> Regards, Gary


???????????????????????? Where did you clarify your statement???


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## DoxN4cer (Oct 14, 2004)

GAB said:
			
		

> To take a quote and only put what you want in the quote is not correct in my way of thinking either. IMO... G



Well, OK.  I feel that quoting an entire post when I only wish to address particular points is a waste of bandwidth and monotonous for other readers in this forum.  I'm not trying to rip up your previous post.  Please don't take it that way.

Tim


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## DoxN4cer (Oct 14, 2004)

GAB said:
			
		

> I asked you if drills and flow were a complete picture, you did not address that.



Is it OK if I field this one?  IMHO, No.  Drills and flow are not the complete picture.  Drills can help you get there (depending on how you practice), but performing prearranged patterns of movements is "rudamentary flow".  It teaches you to transition smoothly from on technique to another, but it is not "free form" (spontaneous) flow.  

Tim


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## Flatlander (Oct 14, 2004)

Spontaneous!  That's the word I was looking for.  Thanks, Tim.


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## GAB (Oct 14, 2004)

The Kai said:
			
		

> ???????????????????????? Where did you clarify your statement???


Kai
I think I clarified my position in the Techniques thread that I was asked to leave and come over here. Guess not? Have you been talking to Kelly? Do you know him from Hanshi's studio?

Tim
Spontaneous, that is a word that I like, in the use of all Martial arts responses, conceptualize is another.

Fluidity and Flow, these drills I am talking about are not all routine, not a, b, c, or 1,2,3.

Anyo, which language is that one from? I know the word 'Ano', Year in Spanish, the word 'agos' Tagalog, for flow.

I talked about the word flow as in the Book by Guro Dan Inosanto and the word flow as seen by the, 'Kuntaw Lima-Lima' system.

Where do you deriv your term flow?

Thanks for the information. 

Regards, Gary


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## GAB (Oct 14, 2004)

Hi Kai,

You asked a question on the senior board and Doc answered it and referred it to John Bishop.

I would like to address it if I may? 

Sijo Emperado lent his training to Kajukenbo (escrima/eskrima). 

Raymond Tobosa of  'Tobosa Kali/Escrima', Has some information about his system, in the book by Mark V. Wiley. 

He did not give to the Hawaiian Kempo arts. He received some of the knowledge from people who learned from Chow. He called his original art Kaji-Kumi, then later changed it to Tobosa Kali/Escrima.

He gives a lot of credit to Floro Villabrille, for the information he passed on to Raymond. Quite a lot of it was verbal. Similar to what Hanshi got from JM.

Just my .02 worth.

Regards, Gary


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## Rich Parsons (Oct 14, 2004)

GAB said:
			
		

> Anyo, which language is that one from? I know the word 'Ano', Year in Spanish, the word 'agos' Tagalog, for flow.
> 
> Thanks for the information.
> 
> Regards, Gary



GAB,

I answered your question in the Figure Eight Thread in the Modern Arnis section on what little I know about the word Anyo.

Best regards


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## GAB (Oct 14, 2004)

Rich, Yes thank you.

Palusut gave me the information, I asked him to stop by this thread and follow it up for me, it might clarify or muddy. I am not sure, either way, I would like his imput.

Regards, Gary


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## Dan Anderson (Oct 15, 2004)

Sorry for attempting to put this thread back on track BUT, for me, the flow has several aspects:
1.  continuity of motion
2.  ability to read what your opponent/partner is set up for 
3.  ability not to freeze when you screw up or events take a turn for the worse.

A huge break through happened when I was at Frank Shekosky's place doing an extended version of the 6-count drill with Prof. Presas.  RP showed a couple of added moves to the drill and the light bulb came on over my head.  I spotted that there was a counter from _any _ conceiveable position and from there my Modern Arnis made a quantum leap.  All for now.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## loki09789 (Oct 15, 2004)

DoxN4cer said:
			
		

> Is it OK if I field this one? IMHO, No. Drills and flow are not the complete picture. Drills can help you get there (depending on how you practice), but performing prearranged patterns of movements is "rudamentary flow". It teaches you to transition smoothly from on technique to another, but it is not "free form" (spontaneous) flow.
> 
> Tim


Amen Brother!  Give and take drills, pre-set stimulus/response type things will act like 'lab practicals' or 'hands on practice' to help you internalize/create a personal understanding of flow (as a concept) it is the teaching tool that can help you 'get to flow'

The real kicker is that these drills that teach 'flow' for artistic and technical proficiency ALSO double as 'tactical response training' when you teach the same drill as a 'stimulus-response' as an applied defense against a certain angle/type of attack.

The drills are just drills, what you focus on as learning objectives that you want to get out of that drill is really what matters.  For artistic and athletic development, 'flow drills' introduce students to 'flow concept' in an experiencial approach.  For combative/defensive use, the 'flow drills' give you an individual 'immediate action' or 'trained automatic response' to keep you alive.  Purpose drives the student/teacher's focus, but the drill doesn't have to change.


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