# Knife fighting skills for unarmed combat.



## Happy-Papi (Jun 21, 2013)

I originally wrote this for my real MA friends and brothers but I don't know if this can be useful to MT???
Hope it does in some way...

http://father-and-son-ma-training-j...knife-fighting-skills-for-unarmed-combat.html


To our kind moderator, Please delete this if you think that this is garbage... Thank you


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## lklawson (Jun 21, 2013)

Happy-Papi said:


> I originally wrote this for my real MA friends and brothers but I don't know if this can be useful to MT???
> Hope it does in some way...
> 
> http://father-and-son-ma-training-j...knife-fighting-skills-for-unarmed-combat.html
> ...


Really good stuff.  It mirrors what I, myself, have noted and every other knife instructor I've worked with has told me.  It is really freaking hard to make students react properly with most "training weapons" because they don't have the respect for the blade.  They rush in where they'd normally be super conservative.  It's frustrating.

I have one friend who teaches spanish Navaja who make his upper level students spar with dinner knives (I always incorrectly called them "butter knives").  They're blunt tipped but have some serrations and can still leave some nasty scratches.

When we had this year's Recreational Violence, I did a few (very few!) of the Thi-bowie drills "live steel" (i.e.; live blades; sharp bowies; "for real" knives, etc.).  Even in these very safe and choreographed drills, the "intention" felt with live steel is definitely different than with "training blades."  As I wrote in my review, it's "anus clenching."  

Great article.  Thanks!

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Happy-Papi (Jun 21, 2013)

lklawson said:


> Really good stuff.  It mirrors what I, myself, have noted and every other knife instructor I've worked with has told me.  It is really freaking hard to make students react properly with most "training weapons" because they don't have the respect for the blade.  They rush in where they'd normally be super conservative.  It's frustrating.
> 
> I have one friend who teaches spanish Navaja who make his upper level students spar with dinner knives (I always incorrectly called them "butter knives").  They're blunt tipped but have some serrations and can still leave some nasty scratches.
> 
> ...




Yes it is really hard to get students to respect the blade. They may know lots of fancy moves but without learning the true story about blades can put themselves in a more uglier situation. 

Yes those butter knives are fun. Brought back good memories when my son started studying knife fighting. I had to wear long sleeves because they are nasty. First it leaves a white scratch and slowly small drips of blood comes out, hahaha!

I have some old post somewhere in my blog where I discretely shared some stuffs and our different approach with blades. Like why we have to keep our mouths closed, eyes partly covered, how slippery blood can be, why we prefer solid stance than fancy footwork, etc. basing it on the type of location where attack happened most (toilets, shower rooms, small dark alley, stairs, uneven ground, etc.). And this is why we trained on backstabbing and stealth techniques more because these are the more frequent situation/location where knife attacks happen. It's like studying the opponent's techniques and using it against them  Benefits of landing one good hit vs many hits unless he is a swimmer, lol. Just like old MAist say that "most youngsters nowadays tend to punch like weak jackhammers and totally put aside the one hit one kill blow". Also shared a story about my senior who was stabbed several times on the neck and survived...

It is very nice to know that we share similar views about blades and yes it is really "anus clenching", HAHAHA!

Many thanks for sharing your experiences Kirk!


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## MJS (Jun 22, 2013)

Nice article!  It's certainly not garbage by any means!   Yes, its certainly an eye opener when you start working with stuff other than wood or plastic blades.  The flashy, non practical stuff goes out the window, and more focus on solid technique actually comes into play.


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## Kenpo5.0Hawker (Sep 9, 2013)

Had tried several times to respond to various knife threads only to have my phone mess up all my work because I left my responses before I was finished. In short. Stop fearing blades. I've been cut three times. Wone those encounters hands down. My buddy "lost" and was stabbed 15 times with a extra large steak knife and was smoking cigs after three days in the hospital. I'd you get knifed its most likely not the end. Keep fighting. Also. If you use a knife in defense keep stabing. That's the short version of what I was trying to say.


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## Chris Parker (Sep 11, 2013)

Hmm... maybe it would have been better if your phone had gotten in the way of posting this one as well... that is really some of the most irresponsible, and poorly reasoned advice I've ever seen when it comes to knife defense. Sure, you might have gotten out of it okay, but that's seeming to be more luck than anything else... and, frankly, if you want to base an entire tactical response to a potentially lethal weapon assault on luck or poor skill on the attackers part, well... okay... but I'd hardly put it out as good advice to anyone else.


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## Aiki Lee (Sep 11, 2013)

To give Kempo5.oHawker the benefit of the doubt, I'm going to assume he means not to be overly afraid of the blade to the point of inaction. It's one thing to be aware of the realistic danger and take it seriously, but it is another to lose all hope of emerging victorious. It is true that people can survive multiple wounds, but like Chris said, you don't want to assume you will get lucky or that your attacker is unskilled or incompetent. One cut or stab could very well be the end of you. I agree that one should keep fighting until they can safely get away and I don't think anyone would advocate to just surrender and consider yourself dead. Know it's a possibility, but not a certainty.
I disagree however that if you use a knife in SD you should "keep stabbing"; I can think of very few situations where you would not go to prison for such behavior.


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## tshadowchaser (Sep 14, 2013)

I trained with a live blade for many years but these days most people do not want that kind of training. IT scares them.
I have seen students, who have no fear when the blade is wood or rubber, completely lose control of themselves when a live blade is pulled out in class. Some have even cried at the thought of being cut. 
Live blade training is bound to be dangerous and yes people do get cut doing it but it gives you a respect for the blade that nothing else will.
I have also seen some of the most impractical, stupid, techniques shown with non-live blades. Ones that would truly get a person hurt if the blade was real.
For those that do train with live blades I congratulate you for being more realistic in your training.  For those that do not at this time practice that way I will tell you from experience that you need to be exceptionaly careful and practice at a slow pace to learn or bad things can happen.


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## tshadowchaser (Sep 14, 2013)

I should add that no matter how much you trust the person you are working with when dealing with live blades if you ever hear the words  "Don't worry I will not cut you"  start worrying because that's when accidents usualy happen.  Never let your guard down or become to relaxed.  Whomever you are working with may not screw up but you may or you may do everything correct and the other person may do something a little different and that confidence that you will not get cut will get you injured


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## Happy-Papi (Sep 14, 2013)

tshadowchaser said:


> I trained with a live blade for many years but these days most people do not want that kind of training. IT scares them.
> I have seen students, who have no fear when the blade is wood or rubber, completely lose control of themselves when a live blade is pulled out in class. Some have even cried at the thought of being cut.
> Live blade training is bound to be dangerous and yes people do get cut doing it but it gives you a respect for the blade that nothing else will.
> I have also seen some of the most impractical, stupid, techniques shown with non-live blades. Ones that would truly get a person hurt if the blade was real.
> For those that do train with live blades I congratulate you for being more realistic in your training.  For those that do not at this time practice that way I will tell you from experience that you need to be exceptionaly careful and practice at a slow pace to learn or bad things can happen.



I totally agree with you and it's nice to know that you have trained with live blades. 
Another big reason I see why many practitioners get scared with blades is that they don't really use blades that much in their everyday life especially practitioners who are living in the city where everybody can buy sliced meat/chopped veggies and not chop wood or do some gardening or craft wood. Another reason probably is that there are too many parents who were not brought up with knives and are scared or against knives that they pass their negativity to their children. Many think that blades are evil since they don't have a real use for blades and when these people try to learn knife fighting, they are negative and freak out. Luckily my family is not negative with blades since we use them as tools and the fighting skills is just an added bonus.  

Yes there are lots of very impractical, stupid and very unrealistic techniques being taught by some "knife masters". I have met several "knife masters" whose knife skills are so impractical that one mistake may lead to them poking their own eyes, hahaha! I also met "masters" who twirls their dummy blades like propellers but have problems doing real chores with real blades??? These said masters teach their students fancy knife fighting but I do hope that they should first teach themselves how to really handle knives and do something positive like doing house chores, gardening, chopping trees, crafting, etc. aside from twirling and looking cool before they teach.


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 14, 2013)

We live in a litigious society (at least here in the USA) and as a result, training with live blades is generally not a particularly viable option. 

What alternatives have you found that provide less risk but more realism?

I've trained live steel (in private, never in an organized setting) but the trade off there is that you WILL hold back. I've found putting something on the edge of the bated blade that will leave a mark helpful. Ink or chalk works. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.


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## Brian King (Sep 14, 2013)

DD,
Have you tried 'scratch sticks'? Take a wooden dowel and partially drive in a small nail on one or both ends. Cut the head off of the nail so that the nail is still sticking out of the end. This sort tool is limited and not for everyone but is great for working on retentions and take aways and learning how to use the point of a blade. It does leave scrapes and cuts but as long as the face is avoided they are usually minor. Test the stick on yourself prior to using it with students and if the cut is too deep simply pound in the nail a little further.  

Nice blog post Happy-Papi. Thanks for sharing

Regards
Brian King


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 14, 2013)

I've not tried scratch sticks, but I can see how they'd be useful. I can also see their limitations. 

Do you think the scratch, with the limitations of the stick, is more useful than a fake knife that's "sharp" - in the sense that it will mark you - through the entire edge?


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## jks9199 (Sep 14, 2013)

If you've got the money -- Shocknife


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 15, 2013)

Gotta admit the shock knife looks way cool, but it's at a price point that's going to keep it out of the range for most non-taxpayer funded training.


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## billc (Sep 15, 2013)

Here is a thought on practicing with as close to real blades as you can get...the person who is responding to the attack is technically in the most limited position in training, not only because the other guy has the training knife, but because in reality...he can't go completely "weapons free," on the guy with the real or almost real knife.

Do you see what I mean?  True, he will have to react in a more real way to dulled real knives or real knives, but the way he reacts will be held back by the fact that he doesn't really want to really hurt his training partner.  It isn't like he can avoid the knife and smash the attacker in the face repeatedly to stop the attack, he can only strike so hard...so the knife attacker has less to fear and deal with during the training excercise.  Not saying this is a bad thing or anything like that, just making the point that like any exercise, not being able to actually injure, cripple or kill the attacker changes the nature of the drill as well.


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## billc (Sep 15, 2013)

Has anyone developed "Shock Swords," yet...?  Those might be as much or more fun...

At the Pacific Island Gathering Tournament, last year, we had some Krav Maga guys come in.  Their instructor was a former Marine Recon member, and he talked about training with shock knives...he really enjoyed them...he said as soon as they picked them up...they put them at the highest setting(?) and started training...


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## jks9199 (Sep 15, 2013)

It's out of the range of most tax-payer funded training, too.  :lol:


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## Happy-Papi (Sep 15, 2013)

billc said:


> Here is a thought on practicing with as close to real blades as you can get...the person who is responding to the attack is technically in the most limited position in training, not only because the other guy has the training knife, but because in reality...he can't go completely "weapons free," on the guy with the real or almost real knife.
> 
> Do you see what I mean?  True, he will have to react in a more real way to dulled real knives or real knives, but the way he reacts will be held back by the fact that he doesn't really want to really hurt his training partner.  It isn't like he can avoid the knife and smash the attacker in the face repeatedly to stop the attack, he can only strike so hard...so the knife attacker has less to fear and deal with during the training excercise.  Not saying this is a bad thing or anything like that, just making the point that like any exercise, not being able to actually injure, cripple or kill the attacker changes the nature of the drill as well.



Yes this is also very true that "like any exercise, not being able to actually injure, cripple or kill the attacker changes the nature of the drill as well". Practitioners who uses real knives will tend not to go all the way since both don't like to get hurt. Though training like this have benefits it also has it's downside because the movements are more controlled and this is where dummy knives shines. 

Some problems I had training back in my country when I was young is that there were several times during mix training (barrio FMA or paramilitary training... just like street basketball) that some people do get very serious in proving their skills that they will go all the way especially when there are females watching, some alcohol or if there was some kind of betting involved. Not all are martial artist or officers and the normal Mr. Pedro can join. I noticed that drunk civilians who has some kind of criminal background often get a bit too serious. Training often happens over alcohol or some town fiesta and the friendly game becomes a little bit too serious and it doesn't matter if the game is unarmed, sticks or blades because some loonies really go for fame and some cash. Keeping the practice in a restricted environment like a dojo is good but there are still free practitioners who practices just about anywhere. Probably this doesn't happen much but there will always be people doing this. There were times that we have seen games that someone had to put a 38 spl or a 1911 on the guys face just to calm him down... These things doesn't happen much inside the dojo but outside training or games can sometimes be too entertaining and this is when a practitioner who trained with live blades have the extra edge (funky dodging skills) that he can really put his training to use because nobody really knows when the partner/opponent will get too serious or is just a total loony.  

Going back to the normal side...  During my unarmed CQC training, most of the times we really can't go all the way just like with real knives. It may be unarmed but we focus on offensive style where neck cranking, neck biting, eye poking, eye gouging, etc. is the SOP so we can't really go all the way. Yes we did got some injuries but nothing serious because there is control. Even my son injured me many times during our training but I think that injuries is an added bonus in all martial arts. Real weapons or not, I guess that we all have something in common and that is to get as close as possible to real life fighting. 

Many thanks billc!


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## Brian King (Sep 15, 2013)

*DD wrote:*


> I've not tried scratch sticks, but I can see how they'd be useful. I can also see their limitations.
> 
> 
> Do you think the scratch, with the limitations of the stick, is more useful than a fake knife that's "sharp" - in the sense that it will mark you - through the entire edge?


Hey DD
Different autos get different results: for example a sports car gets better mileage, accelerates faster, stops quicker than a Sprinter Delivery Van. But while getting less gas mileage, the van can haul many times the cargo than the sports car. Each vehicle has its use and so do training tools and drills. Even if two people drive the same vehicle the gas mileage, acceleration, stopping power, and cargo hauled will vary from driver to driver. Two people can work the same drill and each can gain different experiences and understanding from the same exploration and training tools used. 

Yes scratch sticks are mostly only useful for point (stabbing work) exploration rather than slashing work. For slash work some have tried sticks with a nail head exposed on the side (or both sides). If you try this I recommend working the stick on the butt end with some sand paper to give the butt some edge orientation by slightly flattening two sides. I prefer to use either very heavy metal training knives, dinner knives, or dulled live blades depending on the student, the drill, and the issues being explored. Of the three my favorite is the dulled down live blade. This gives the opportunity to train with the type of blade one carries and gives all training partners the dual opportunity to practice accessing their blade while in their carry method and to also observe someone accessing  various types of blades from various carry methods. Heavy training blades should be used with minimal or no padding to provide the instant and real feedback of contact. Dinner knives used against bare arms especially can also give instant feedback. Pain can be an honest teacher. To loosen up wrists and to develop point awareness scratch sticks are very useful. There was a move in the 1990s made out of Brazil I think. A photographer catches a knife fight and warns one of the fighters of a back stab mid fight. Later he gets involved with a female who gets killed and he gets stabbed but not killed. He goes to the knife fighter he witnessed fighting for lessons on blade work. One of the drills used in the movie the instructor uses a burning ember to work his student while doing FMA type of work. This idea is similar to some scratch stick work. It was an interesting movie and worth watching. 

When two (or more) people are training together it is my opinion that both should be aware and learning at the same time. Likely different lessons as usually one is attacking and one is defending but both should be learning something during the entire drill process. When it comes to blade work there is a component that is often overlooked in many training methodologies. Unless a student is a psychopath there is a heavy psychological burden to having a blade used against them or their using a blade in real life. This burden can be lightened (inoculated against) thru safe quality but not easy training. It is an issue too often ignored and worse, some training actually adds to the burden faced by the practitioners should they ever be required to face or use blades for real.

One of the overlooked benefits of using tools that give honest feedback is that they help to inoculate both the person using the tool and the person training to defend against the tool/attack. There is a burden when working honestly. How often have we heard apologies for someone getting whacked when it was their own fault, they zigged instead of zagged, they hesitated in the block or whatever. The person feeding the honest attack then apologizes for connecting. This is a mistake that robs both partners of a very real and needed lesson. This is not training for chess, it is martial. There is or should be a permission given and accepted that there might or will be some contact during the training. It is vital for martial practitioners to come to terms with permission and acceptance as a part of their training that deals directly with surviving traumatic situations. Apologizing during the drill negates that permission and acceptance. It denies the both the opportunity to come to grips with one of the martial aspects of Martial Arts training no matter the art. It is unacceptable if someone losses their head, gets overly angry, or purposely attempts to injure their training partner. Proper comportment of all training partners is essential to good quality training, it allows the optimum learning experience and environment for the students and it is an instructors responsibility to provide this.

One of the issues with chalk or lipstick marked type of blades is that it often turns into a game. As Billc speaks above, one side armed with a knife that cannot injure more than pride deep can go all out and have great fun while doing it. There is absolutely no psychological cost to the cutting and stabbing, worse like violent video games and movies it reinforces the concept that violence does not have a cost or a burden to either the person inflicting the violence or the person having violence inflicted upon them added to the fact that the person being attacked is severely limited to the techniques that they can safely use against somebody going all out and sets up for them a preconception that they will be cut repeatedly and be unable to stop the attack. It sets the practitioners into a dangerous trap that is only obvious when they are thrust into more serious honest training or unfortunately thrust into real life situation where violence especially potentially crippling lethal worked is called for. There is often a prolonged hesitation while the practitioner faces the prospect of harm and attempts to, on the spot, harden themselves to the work. There is also a cost that if they manage to survive an attack without prior inoculation that they expend and waste energy questioning the use of force, the why me questioning, it is my fault blame gaming. This kind of questioning and psychological weakness can very easily lead to self destructive behaviors that ends professional and personal relationships and can even lead to suicidal thoughts and actions.

There is some training situations that the chalk type knives and drills can be useful such as targeting drills,  but, in my opinion, other than these type of drills the use of these tools should be minimal. 


Regards
Brian King


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