# Practicality



## Ronnin

Okay so I've been looking into learning Aikido, there are so many things that intrigue me with this art. Flowing, passive aggressive, respect, tradition, relying on intelligence not brute force and I could go on and on. I have gone to a few different classes here in my area of Orange County Ca., I have also looked at many many books, and videos on the art. 

I come from many different arts mainly Muay Thai and Wing Chun, not to mention in my younger days just being a general punk kid, I got into my fair share of confrintations and fights, so I know a thing or two about what really happens in a real fight not the dojo. 

My conserns are when I see a demonstration I see the sensei being charged then he holds out his arm and the attacker (charger) grabs his arm! I don't know how this would work in real life. DO you train against "real style" aggression, i.e, jabs, hooks crosses things you be more likely to encounter?


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## CuongNhuka

Ronnin said:


> Okay so I've been looking into learning Aikido, there are so many things that intrigue me with this art. Flowing, passive aggressive, respect, tradition, relying on intelligence not brute force and I could go on and on. I have gone to a few different classes here in my area of Orange County Ca., I have also looked at many many books, and videos on the art.
> 
> I come from many different arts mainly Muay Thai and Wing Chun, not to mention in my younger days just being a general punk kid, I got into my fair share of confrintations and fights, so I know a thing or two about what really happens in a real fight not the dojo.
> 
> My conserns are when I see a demonstration I see the sensei being charged then he holds out his arm and the attacker (charger) grabs his arm! I don't know how this would work in real life. DO you train against "real style" aggression, i.e, jabs, hooks crosses things you be more likely to encounter?


 
Do you think that what is shown in a demo is the same as the art itself? My school does Aikido, and it is far some that kind of thing. It starts like that, but it never stays like that.


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## Ronnin

CuongNhuka said:


> Do you think that what is shown in a demo is the same as the art itself? My school does Aikido, and it is far some that kind of thing. It starts like that, but it never stays like that.


Well yes, I did think when you watch an Aikido demo they're doing Aikido. LOL what else what it be :jediduel:


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## MBuzzy

A large portion of Aikido is not just learning the techniques, but also the Ukemi, or keeping yourself from getting hurt basically.  The basis is just learning the techniques.  The things that you learn are effective, but the realism that you're looking for doesn't come until much later in Aikido.


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## CuongNhuka

Ronnin said:


> Well yes, I did think when you watch an Aikido demo they're doing Aikido. LOL what else what it be :jediduel:


 
-palm to face-


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## Ronnin

CuongNhuka said:


> -palm to face-


Well I've just blocked it and flipped you on your a*s !!:mst:


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## Kumbajah

The waza is teaching you the interplay of an encounter- (timing, distance, speed, force, etc) The hand out is taking the line. Filling the space / line of attack. For him to attack you he has to get around that physical space. One way to do that is to grab your arm/wrist etc. Then thats the waza that you see. If he doesn't respect that physical space he will get a palm / fist to the face. That's why there are attacks like yokomen ( you can think of it as a hook) to get around your guard. Other ways to get around that is to knock the arm out of the way that will lead to a different waza. Anther way to think of the arm out is a point of reference where you've made initial contact - you can keep track of his motion and hopefully hide your own. It isn't easy. Good luck with your classes.


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## morph4me

What you see in aikido demonstrations, and what's taught in most aikido dojo's, are techniques deomonstrating the princples of the art. The timing, distance balance and balance breaking that are transmitted by grabbing techniques are the same that you would use in other types of attacks. I study a style of aikido where we train against jabs, crosses, hooks, kicks etc. and it works very well.


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## Jenna

Ronnin said:


> Okay so I've been looking into learning Aikido, there are so many things that intrigue me with this art. Flowing, passive aggressive, respect, tradition, relying on intelligence not brute force and I could go on and on. I have gone to a few different classes here in my area of Orange County Ca., I have also looked at many many books, and videos on the art.
> 
> I come from many different arts mainly Muay Thai and Wing Chun, not to mention in my younger days just being a general punk kid, I got into my fair share of confrintations and fights, so I know a thing or two about what really happens in a real fight not the dojo.
> 
> My conserns are when I see a demonstration I see the sensei being charged then he holds out his arm and the attacker (charger) grabs his arm! I don't know how this would work in real life. DO you train against "real style" aggression, i.e, jabs, hooks crosses things you be more likely to encounter?


Hmm, I would wonder if Aikido would really be the art for someone like yourself with this kind of "real fight" experience.  I would say, stick to the books and videos - that should give you all you will ever really need to know about Aikido.  The sensei holding out his arm for the 'charger' to grab sounds about the height of it.  I mean, that kind of idiocy (like kata and poomse and all that nonsense) should be nowhere in a *real* fighter's martial toolset.  Seriously, I would give Aikido a wide berth if you need to be dealing with that kind of "real style" aggression.
Good luck and all   Keep safe now.
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## theletch1

This thread has a short clip of aikido on it defending against various non-grabbing attacks.

This thread deals with exactly what you're asking about.

And this thread deals with aikido at a higher level... if I do say so myself.


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## K-man

Jenna said:


> Hmm, I would wonder if Aikido would really be the art for someone like yourself with this kind of "real fight" experience. I would say, stick to the books and videos - that should give you all you will ever really need to know about Aikido. The sensei holding out his arm for the 'charger' to grab sounds about the height of it. I mean, that kind of idiocy (like kata and poomse and all that nonsense) should be nowhere in a *real* fighter's martial toolset. Seriously, I would give Aikido a wide berth if you need to be dealing with that kind of "real style" aggression.
> Good luck and all  Keep safe now.
> Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
> Jenna


 I had to read it twice, but Jenna ... you rock!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  Great insight.


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## Ronnin

morph4me said:


> What you see in aikido demonstrations, and what's taught in most aikido dojo's, are techniques deomonstrating the princples of the art. The timing, distance balance and balance breaking that are transmitted by grabbing techniques are the same that you would use in other types of attacks. I study a style of aikido where we train against jabs, crosses, hooks, kicks etc. and it works very well.


What is that style?


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## Andrew Green

morph4me said:


> What you see in aikido demonstrations, and what's taught in most aikido dojo's, are techniques deomonstrating the princples of the art. The timing, distance balance and balance breaking that are transmitted by grabbing techniques are the same that you would use in other types of attacks. I study a style of aikido where we train against jabs, crosses, hooks, kicks etc. and it works very well.



How so?

I'd very much like to see a video of a guy wearing boxing gloves and trying to land punches and combination while the other guy defends with Aikido techniques.  Something like that would provide a good contrast to the huge amount of run in and provide a arm then stop fighting clips.


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## morph4me

Ronnin said:


> What is that style?


 
Nihon Goshin Aikido


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## theletch1

The style Morph is talking about is Nihon Goshin Aikido.  It's my style as well.  In our dojo if you're going to actually reach out and grab your nage you'd better say the word "grip" to let them know that beforehand.  Otherwise, you'll be met with a pre-emptive strike.  We deal with round houses, backhands, uppercuts, overhand attacks, pushes, grabs and kicks... and I'm sure I'm leaving a few things out.  Do a youtube search for the style and you'll see quite a bit.  Lemme see if I can find a good one for you.  The one in my post up thread is a short one from my dojo.


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## morph4me

Andrew Green said:


> How so?
> 
> I'd very much like to see a video of a guy wearing boxing gloves and trying to land punches and combination while the other guy defends with Aikido techniques. Something like that would provide a good contrast to the huge amount of run in and provide a arm then stop fighting clips.


 
Take a look at the links in post #10. Theletch1 and I study the same art. You may be able to find something on utube if you look for Nihon Goshin Aikido or Robert Mackewen


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## theletch1

Ah, here's what I was looking for.

[yt]N1B8sogcOyY&feature=related[/yt]


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## Jenna

theletch1 said:


> Ah, here's what I was looking for.


Great vid.  I like it.  But come on Jeff, you cannot seriously expect anyone to believe this would be efficient on _~the street~_ against real proper fighters? 
 
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## theletch1

Jenna said:


> Great vid.  I like it.  But come on Jeff, you cannot seriously expect anyone to believe this would be efficient on _~the street~_ against real proper fighters?
> 
> Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
> Jenna


:lfao:


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## morph4me

Jenna said:


> Great vid. I like it. But come on Jeff, you cannot seriously expect anyone to believe this would be efficient on _~the street~_ against real proper fighters?
> 
> Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
> Jenna


 
 :uhoh:  :lol:


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## yorkshirelad

Jenna said:


> Great vid. I like it. But come on Jeff, you cannot seriously expect anyone to believe this would be efficient on _~the street~_ against real proper fighters?
> 
> Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
> Jenna


This quote is for the most part true, but this can be said about MOST women. They don't IN GENERAL make as good a street fighter as a man. That doesn't mean they shouldn't train.

Most Aikido systems are based on the teachings of Ueshiba, so you should expect that philosophy  trumps "street" effectiveness. I have, however seen some tough Aikido practitioners. For instance, if you are in So Cal, go to the Westminster Aikikai www.tenshinkai.com and speak to Phong Sensei. This guy is in his late 60's and has been in the US about 30 years. He and his brother were Ueshiba's reps for Vietnam back in the day. 

During his time in Vietnam, he tried to escape the communist regime numerous times, each time he was captured, imprisoned and sent for "re-education". Eventually through guts alone he escaped to the US. This guy is tough and has been through trauma that the average US citizen will never have to go through. This guy might not be a tough streetfighter, but his training has given him the serenity to look hardship in the face and smile.

You might also try Dye Soke's Shuyokan dojo in Costa Mesa. www.shuyokan.com Dye Sensei is a former Costa Mesa cop, who has created a system using Yoshinkan Aikido as a base. He also has black belts in Shotokan karate and Judo. His system has a Goshin Jutsu componant that is probably inspired by Dye Sensei's law enforcement experience.

In Monterey there is Julio Toribio, he is the Soke of Seibukan JuJutsu. www.seibukan.com This art is has Aiki as a major influence and therefore resembles Aikido to a great extent. Toribio Sensei has Menkyo Kaiden in Hakkoryu JuJutsu which is based on Daito ryu and a Godan in Iwama ryu Aikido and was, for a while an uchi deshi of Saito sensei in Iwama. His Judan came from Hatsumi Soke and he has extensive knowledge in Iaido and Kenjutsu. Ronnin, this guy, like yourself was a US Army Ranger and is, along with Dye Sensei probably the best practitioner of Aiki I've seen, that includes most of the Japanese Shihan I've witnessed.

Aikido may not be as effective as Muay Thai, but then, I tend to look at the person first and then the art when it comes to being tough. I got into a lot of scrapes in my teens and 20's and considered myself rather handy, but I'm alot happier now that I am older and have a little more sense and don't get into confrontations that often. I've known many "street fighters" in my time and I can tell you that most were feared rather than respected and a few are even dead or in the nick.

I will take the quiet life and Aikido over a life filled with street fights anyday. 

I love Muay Thai, but I also love Aikido.


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## Jenna

yorkshirelad said:


> This quote is for the most part true, but this can be said about MOST women. They don't IN GENERAL make as good a street fighter as a man. That doesn't mean they shouldn't train.


Oh trust me, as a mere woman, unchained from the dusters and mops, I have been using my own RB-Aikido to vanquish the bare knuckle crazies of the Greater London travelling community since they took up residence under my carport.  They gave me no option.  I have nowhere to park the Astra when it drizzles now.  Like yourself, I am "rather handy" and came up through the ranks of Aikido-Streetfighter where the WoCs would have been blackjacks, knuckledusters, studded Staffie collars, hexes and proprietary voodoo - you know the form, right?  From twenty-seven hard won, and but exemplary pieces of combat, I constructed my own system of reality-based Aikido - which traces its roots back to when Morihei Ueshiba exiled himself here to Dorset, lost his purse of Yen betting bad on a cockfight, and then got himself mixed up with the Romanies.  The rest, you will know from your history books.  As something of a bare knuckle destroyer, I use my RB-Aikido with gusto, though it is not about killing, well, not usually, though accidents do happen.  No, it is more about honour.  Muay Thai?  Maybe; maybe not.  Reality-based Aikido is where the proper action is at though.  Say it. 

Take care and go easy on those streets.
Jenna (founder of _Neo-Romany RB Aikido_ - go ahead and Google it)


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## theletch1

Jenna, it's official, you are now my hero! 

I need a few more cups of coffee before I respond to the other posts that have been made recently but I'll do so this afternoon.


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## morph4me

Wow Jenna, and I thought you were just a dainty little flower who needed some of us big strong men to protect you:uhyeah:.


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## yorkshirelad

morph4me said:


> Wow Jenna, and I thought you were just a dainty little flower who needed some of us big strong men to protect you:uhyeah:.


 
She could at least pretend.....I feel rather deflowered and useless now


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## Ronnin

Jenna said:


> Great vid.  I like it.  But come on Jeff, you cannot seriously expect anyone to believe this would be efficient on _~the street~_ against real proper fighters?
> 
> Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
> Jenna


oh she's slick, I almost didn't get the subtle sarcasm. :moon:


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## Ronnin

Take care and go easy on those streets.
Jenna (founder of [I said:
			
		

> Neo-Romany RB Aikido[/I] - go ahead and Google it)


I did and found nothing.


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## yorkshirelad

Jenna is a true master of sarcasm. I humbly bow before her.


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## ejaazi

Static attacks such as wrist grabs are harder to deal with than a wild punch thrown by someone on the street who is out to hurt you. The wrist grabbing is just a training method to learn so many other things.


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## charyuop

Sarcasm is nice and fun and we can all have a nice laugh at it. But truth is that question, which is often asked, has a very solid base.
I mean, I have been doing Aikido for 3 years now and sometimes when I watch demos of Aikido online I laugh. Many demos are really made in a very poor way. On the other hand there there are good demos out there which still will raise skepticism in people.
I train under a godan and hadn't I experienced on me the power and the way your balance can be taken away from you without even realizing it, I would probably think the same of Aikido as the person opening this thread. However seeing in the dojo "real" strikes and working on them made me realize how powerful is this art. Just as a little example a question often asked is kotegaeshi how good it is since no one will never attack with those launched punches. Well, I like much more a kotegaeshi on those punches then when we do it in the dojo on the jabs, where it gets so quick that if you don't go down quick you will have a sore elbows for days.

On one think I agree tho. If you look for self defence avoid Aikido. To become proficient in Aikido it takes time and if you go in the street thinking you are ready and in fact you are not the surprises are very bitter. I think to have a good proficiency on the street you need to reach a 2nd/3rd dan. The real problem (well at least that I have found out of the dojo) is the tendency to reduce the fight to a real fight (strength vs strength) and not being able to adapt to the movement of the opponent. If you cannot adapt your Aikido will look like Aikido to someone looking, but who practices it can tell you that doesn't feel like it. An Aikido technique carried out with strength is just a fake technique for which you relie only on muscles. In my dojo I am by far (miles away) the weakest one, and trust me I can tell when I use muscles coz that's when I get the rag doll treatment LOL. That is why I think Aikido requires a long time to become proficient.


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## Jack Meower

Jenna said:


> Oh trust me, as a mere woman, unchained from the dusters and mops, I have been using my own RB-Aikido to vanquish the bare knuckle crazies of the Greater London travelling community since they took up residence under my carport.  They gave me no option.  I have nowhere to park the Astra when it drizzles now.  Like yourself, I am "rather handy" and came up through the ranks of Aikido-Streetfighter where the WoCs would have been blackjacks, knuckledusters, studded Staffie collars, hexes and proprietary voodoo - you know the form, right?  From twenty-seven hard won, and but exemplary pieces of combat, I constructed my own system of reality-based Aikido - which traces its roots back to when Morihei Ueshiba exiled himself here to Dorset, lost his purse of Yen betting bad on a cockfight, and then got himself mixed up with the Romanies.  The rest, you will know from your history books.  As something of a bare knuckle destroyer, I use my RB-Aikido with gusto, though it is not about killing, well, not usually, though accidents do happen.  No, it is more about honour.  Muay Thai?  Maybe; maybe not.  Reality-based Aikido is where the proper action is at though.  Say it.
> 
> Take care and go easy on those streets.
> Jenna (founder of _Neo-Romany RB Aikido_ - go ahead and Google it)



That's all well and good, but what the heck is an Astra?


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## Ronnin

charyuop said:


> Sarcasm is nice and fun and we can all have a nice laugh at it. But truth is that question, which is often asked, has a very solid base.
> I mean, I have been doing Aikido for 3 years now and sometimes when I watch demos of Aikido online I laugh. Many demos are really made in a very poor way. On the other hand there there are good demos out there which still will raise skepticism in people.
> I train under a godan and hadn't I experienced on me the power and the way your balance can be taken away from you without even realizing it, I would probably think the same of Aikido as the person opening this thread. However seeing in the dojo "real" strikes and working on them made me realize how powerful is this art. Just as a little example a question often asked is kotegaeshi how good it is since no one will never attack with those launched punches. Well, I like much more a kotegaeshi on those punches then when we do it in the dojo on the jabs, where it gets so quick that if you don't go down quick you will have a sore elbows for days.
> 
> On one think I agree tho. If you look for self defence avoid Aikido. To become proficient in Aikido it takes time and if you go in the street thinking you are ready and in fact you are not the surprises are very bitter. I think to have a good proficiency on the street you need to reach a 2nd/3rd dan. The real problem (well at least that I have found out of the dojo) is the tendency to reduce the fight to a real fight (strength vs strength) and not being able to adapt to the movement of the opponent. If you cannot adapt your Aikido will look like Aikido to someone looking, but who practices it can tell you that doesn't feel like it. An Aikido technique carried out with strength is just a fake technique for which you relie only on muscles. In my dojo I am by far (miles away) the weakest one, and trust me I can tell when I use muscles coz that's when I get the rag doll treatment LOL. That is why I think Aikido requires a long time to become proficient.


Very good post. I thank you for answering to the best of your ability without trying to be funny and cute !


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## K-man

Ronnin said:


> Okay so I've been looking into learning Aikido, there are so many things that intrigue me with this art. Flowing, passive aggressive, respect, tradition, relying on intelligence not brute force and I could go on and on. I have gone to a few different classes here in my area of Orange County Ca., I have also looked at many many books, and videos on the art.
> 
> I come from many different arts mainly Muay Thai and Wing Chun, not to mention in my younger days just being a general punk kid, I got into my fair share of confrintations and fights, so I know a thing or two about what really happens in a real fight not the dojo.
> 
> My conserns are when I see a demonstration I see the sensei being charged then he holds out his arm and the attacker (charger) grabs his arm! I don't know how this would work in real life. DO you train against "real style" aggression, i.e, jabs, hooks crosses things you be more likely to encounter?


Having enjoyed the fun, let's get back to the topic.
ejaazi wrote: "Static attacks such as wrist grabs are harder to deal with than a wild punch thrown by someone on the street who is out to hurt you. The wrist grabbing is just a training method to learn so many other things." Wrist grabbing is an exercise to ensure that you can close on the attacker even if you are strongly held. In fact it is a confidence builder in many ways to know that you can't be held. It really has nothing to do with the technique.
I train aikido to supplement my karate. As I get older I can see me relying more on the aikido principles than the speed, strength, and timing needed for my chosen MA. Many of the things shown on video are 'training methods'. I looked at a lot of these in years gone by and thought the same as you. It took until I found a skilled teacher to see where aikido really sits in the picture. Most aikido shown does not include the kicks and strikes. If you watch the movements carefully you can see when they would be delivered and where these would be most effective. As to real style aggression; I have been around the MAs for some time and my aikido teacher is the only one, I have seen, of any style, able to catch or control a full blooded punch every time. 
I think _charyuop _made a very good point. Aikido takes longer to learn as we all have a flinch reflex and we can all punch someone one nose, the attributes required for most martial arts. Getting up close and personal as in ju-jutsu, aikido, hapkido etc means a little more work to get it right. :asian:


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## Daniel Sullivan

Jack Meower said:


> That's all well and good, but what the heck is an Astra?


An Astra is a car made by Opel, a European subsidiary of General Motors (not sure for how much longer). There may be a Vauxhaul equvallent or it may be sold as a Vauxhaul in some places (not sure). 

It is now sold in the US as a Saturn Astra, it shares its underpinnings with the Chevrolet Cobalt/Pontiac G5. In Euriope, the sedan looks just like the Cobalt with a different grille. In the US, I believe the five and three door are the only versions available, as Chevrolet sells the sedan and the coupe, with Pontiac just the coupe. The coupe is not available in Europe so far as I know.

I suspect that the Saturn Astra (and all of the other Saturn models) will soon disappear, as Penske now owns Saturn and from what I have read, will use the brand as a purveyor of Korean cars.

Sorry to car-geek on an Aikido thread.:asian:

Daniel


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## rdonovan1

I think training your body is great, but don't forget to train your mind, spirit and emotions so that you can truly think for yourself and so that you are really doing the things that you need to do to be successfull in life.


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## Aikironin

charyuop said:


> On one think I agree tho. If you look for self defence avoid Aikido. To become proficient in Aikido it takes time and if you go in the street thinking you are ready and in fact you are not the surprises are very bitter. I think to have a good proficiency on the street you need to reach a 2nd/3rd dan.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well I am glad you said it!  I would take it a step further and say if you are looking for self defense avoid ALL martial arts.  Martial arts are great for teaching you strategies on not fighting and self respect, situational awareness and things of that nature...but...as Charyuop said, what good is a MA if it takes you 4-7 years to become street effective?  And the vast majority of the MA are all the same in that regard.  Most street fights are over in about 10-15 seconds, and start with a sudden agressive response.  MA are predominately sport based so the participant starts to create a "Mental bluprint" of how they think the fight will go down, but is the exact opposite.  No street fight starts with the assailants coming together tapping gloves and then starting.  Aikido is great, and has been very good to me over the last couple of decades but that being said, I emphasize real conflict in my training but not real fighting, if that makes any sense to anyone.
Click to expand...


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## theletch1

Make no mistake that the verbal conflict before a punch is thrown is just as much a "fight" as the actually throwing of punches.  Being able to read your opponents emotional energy is just as important to self defense as being able to handle a punch.  Being able to redirect the anger or irritation of a threat is just as important as being able to redirect a punch or kick.  I certainly agree with you that focusing only on real fighting and not real conflict is detrimental to your ability to defend yourself.  You (in general)must learn to "fight" with your mind and your words as efficiently as you do with your physical technique.  Aikido is a good art for that.  The concept of not meeting force with force will go a long way toward winning a fight before the sword is drawn.  I don't agree with the idea that all martial arts are a waste for self defense, though.  The time in the dojo should be used to train both the physical technique of conflict as well as the mental aspect of defeating your opponent.


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## Yari

Andrew Green said:


> How so?
> 
> I'd very much like to see a video of a guy wearing boxing gloves and trying to land punches and combination while the other guy defends with Aikido techniques. Something like that would provide a good contrast to the huge amount of run in and provide a arm then stop fighting clips.


 
Yes it would, but the "fight" would look like aikido, and poeple would just state; That's not Aikido....

I bellive that Aikido isn't the techniques that ou see, but there a a physical extension of Aikido. By doing them your praticing principals in a kind of theory state. I bellive that any bystander ooking at a real "fight" while somebody is doing Aikido, could say it was jujitsu, or karate or even MMA the guy did. 

I keep thinking about this guy who asked me to do "aikido" on him.... I really didn't know what he wanted..... ;-)

Ciao
Yari


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