# Tai Chi Quan combat help?



## FluidSound (Feb 17, 2014)

Hello. I am a Tai Ji Quan practitioner. I was wondering what to do against big opponents. I am about 5'4 and my opponent was bigger than me and has more muscle. His strategy is to not let me breathe, lift and grapple to the floor for a pin. He would use a lot of his body weight and strength to throw me off stability.



What can I do to counter him? How can I get better?


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 17, 2014)

Not what your looking for but take the time to learn taijiquan, there are no shortcuts and it takes time and there most definitely is not a one size fits all application to anything, for starters it depends on your opponents force, the direction of that force and it is those that make up your response

questions, do you know where your center is, are you aware of where it is while sparing and are you able to relax while sparing?


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## clfsean (Feb 17, 2014)

Did you let him grab you up in a bear hug?


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## FluidSound (Feb 17, 2014)

Perhaps not well enough, as far as my center during combat. When I do the form (108 Yang form from the school of Cheng Dsu Yao), I do not over extend and maintain center decently. (Note: This match was grappling only. I didn't throw strikes because honestly, I'm better at striking than I am grappling and don't want to hurt the guy. Practicing Tai Ji Quan for about 4 years, I've figured out ways to help myself not get hurt)

I shift my weight properly and such during the form and practice keeping it 50/50 during each end of a movement. For the most part, I did maintain relaxation. There was no anger and I maintained a positive attitude during the process. Always practice slow and attempt not to break the flow

He is a bit inexperienced and relies heavily on his weight and muscle. However, he has been watching Professional wrestling for a while and actually does know moves from having watched. Yeah, I know that sounds a little pathetic, but I try not to judge. He does practice them sometimes.


Here are details on how the match went. He was very aggressive. I would attempt to breathe in order to relax. I had more technique and flexibility than him, however, he had more muscle and some amount of technique. I will give him credit too because he would adapt a bit. However, my technique wasn't in my combat ability. My technique was in actually maintaining balance and keeping him off me. Escaping. To be fairly honest, I kept the battle neutral most of the time and probably got nervous. The only thing that I would do is push a bit to keep distance. I also attempted to trip him, however, that didn't work very well either. He would mostly grab my arms and push his weight against me. If he went low, I went low. If he went high, I maintained enough height to still be stable. This would last for a while and he would not allow me to get behind him to trip him. I am not very familiar with wrestling though.

To summarize, he would do 2 things to get one result.

He would either try to use all of his weight on me to bring me down by grabbing my arms and using all his weight on me to grab me in different areas and take me to the ground. There were times where he would grab certain locations to take me down and I would escape. But rarely did I attack.

The other would be he'd pick me in the air (I'm light) and attempt to pin me to the ground as well.

I am in no rush. I just wish to grow better, even if it's little by little.


@clfsean

Nah. He didn't do a bear hug. That's actually not that painful if you know how to breathe slowly while it happens.


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## clfsean (Feb 17, 2014)

FluidSound said:


> Perhaps not well enough, as far as my center during combat. When I do the form (108 Yang form from the school of Cheng Dsu Yao), I do not over extend and maintain center decently. (Note: This match was grappling only. I didn't throw strikes because honestly, I'm better at striking than I am grappling and don't want to hurt the guy. Practicing Tai Ji Quan for about 4 years, I've figured out ways to help myself not get hurt)
> 
> I shift my weight properly and such during the form and practice keeping it 50/50 during each end of a movement. For the most part, I did maintain relaxation. There was no anger and I maintained a positive attitude during the process. Always practice slow and attempt not to break the flow
> 
> ...



ok... just curious given what I thought your description was. If he's trying drag your center down & you with it, beat him to the punch. For me, I'd either swap position to under his arm & keep that motion but him being dragged or easier... just add energy on the bottom of your arm & do the same thing. Drag him down. Once his balance is off to you , you should have the advantage. Then step & toss. If he insists on pushing his weight on you, use it .Yield, redirect & project... 

But that's just me & my taiji sucks. I'd gwa/kuhp him to soften him up, but that's not taiji.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 17, 2014)

Yang Taijiquan is not big on attack, although it can attack it tends not to, it tends to relax and wait. 

Use stick, sticky and follow and use fakes that make him move places you want him to so you can control it. You need to be aware of your center in order to find his center and once you have his center you have him. Do not respond to his strength with strength, absorb and redirect. 

Also look to the 13 postures and qinna. If you understand the 13 postures you can fight, you may not follow all the taiji principles in doing so but you can fight. And qinna is a good way to stop a wrestler


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## FluidSound (Feb 17, 2014)

I did try my best to reach for him, but he wouldn't let me really. It was hard for me to even reach his throat to try to bring him down, let alone his arm. I think I was too defensive as well. I never really stepped in, I'd step to the side or away but I could never really get in because he'd overwhelm me with his full weight. He would grab for my legs at times too. He seems to love lifting too. Honestly, I haven't even gone through the 4th Lu of Tai Ji yet. I know the first, second and the third (Not very well).

1st Lu is basic and for relaxation.
2nd Lu for balance.
3rd Lu for breathing
4th Lu for combat application.

I'm never sure what to pay attention to. But when he got me to the ground, he'd have me pinned. For the most part, attacking wasn't my priority because of my options which was a bit foolish of me. I mostly know how to escape and feel out the opponent's movement while keeping stability, but not attacking. I'm not very good at Chi Na techniques either, but I'm alright at doing some form that usually involves tripping and diverting strikes. Grappling is my weak spot and very much so. But I don't want to use brute muscle due to wanting to trust my art more. It allowed me to last a while in each fight. Not to mention I wasted little energy and would heal fast due to the form training. I have noticed that the form does teach me how to not get hurt but I'm never good at knowing how to wide/larger guys off balance.

However, I am capable of defeating someone that has no martial training easily enough.

Also, I'm not really use to using two hands in a fight against an opponent that's also using two hands. His arms were rather stiff so it was hard to move them too.

@Xue Sheng

That is useful. I do intend to learn Chen style 13 form. We do pushing hands where I go, however, I never understood grappling, being a small guy and should try to learn Qinna more. I have trouble in doing so for some odd reason.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 17, 2014)

FluidSound said:


> I did try my best to reach for him, but he wouldn't let me really. It was hard for me to even reach his throat to try to bring him down, let alone his arm. I think I was too defensive as well. I never really stepped in, I'd step to the side or away but I could never really get in because he'd overwhelm me with his full weight. He would grab for my legs at times too. He seems to love lifting too. Honestly, I haven't even gone through the 4th Lu of Tai Ji yet. I know the first, second and the third (Not very well).
> 
> 1st Lu is basic and for relaxation.
> 2nd Lu for balance.
> ...



Don't try and reach him and stepping to the side or out of the way can be stepping in, depending on his force use Split (Lie) or Elbow (Zhou) or Shoulder (Kao) from the 13 postures. And as far as grabbing and lifting you; can you grab his pinky fingers, they bend nicely (qinna). Ever try and lift a small child that does not want to move, relaxation and rooting, that too can stop a lift or at least make it a lot harder to do.

on the ground, qinna if possible


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## mograph (Feb 17, 2014)

FluidSound said:


> ... but I'm never good at knowing how to wide/larger guys off balance.


With big guys, isn't the idea to lead them (as Xue Sheng wrote, to "fake") so they commit, and knock _themselves_ off balance as you move/shift out of the way? (Apologies if you know this.)


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## colemcm (Feb 17, 2014)

Keep relaxed and your weight sunk down. Controlling this guy is going to require that you use your sinking to provide the force to manipulate his spine. If his spine is misaligned, he's going to have a harder time using his strength advantage on you. You can use your hips and weight shifting to manipulate the lower part of his spine/center or you can manipulate it by putting his head at an awkward angle. The head is usually the easiest way to manipulate someone because neck muscles usually aren't very strong and it's directly attached to their spine. That said, the neck is very vulnerable and you might want to avoid targeting it. 

You can also manipulate their spine by turning their body so that their upper torso is twisted in relation to their lower torso. Once the spine's misaligned, you'll find he'll be much more vulnerable to a throw or trip. It's difficult to give specifics over the internet, but if you end up locked up in a clinch (which is where he'll probably try to go first), try taking hold of his triceps and use roll back; dropping your weight into your rear foot as you shift and turn your waist. Don't try to push with one arm while you pull with the other, keep the same sense of heaviness in both of your arms. Your power in grappling is going to come from your sinking, similar to the power in your striking. If you try to apply this to slowly, he'll feel it and pull away from you. So sometimes you have to set him up a bit by starting with a little forward pressure on him. When he feels the pressure, he'll usually respond by pushing back at you. That's when you try to apply the application.

I'd actually recommend that you avoid using a 50/50 weight split. I also practice the Yang 108 as taught by Chen Wei-Ming; which teaches a weight split of 100/0 as the ideal. The reason I say don't go 50/50 with your weight is because it does limit the speed and mobility of your footwork, and also your ability to turn your waist. If your weight is evenly divided, it's kind of like having a set of wheels with two axles attaching them; eventually the axles are going to bind. 

Your weight distribution of 100/0 won't happen as ideally in a fight as it does in your training, but you will be more maneuverable and you will also be far less likely to telegraph any throws and trips you attempt. If you have to load up one leg and then place a foot/leg behind them in order to go for a throw, your giving them more time to feel and see what your doing.

I hope this made some kind of sense to you.


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## oaktree (Feb 17, 2014)

Learn how to sprawl,
Learn how to use momentum to your advantage 
The principal of yield, stick,push,pull.
Learn how to breakfall,
Learn how to clinch, learn how to grapple
And finally learn how to have some ground game.
an oak tree is strong but even it can be up rooted by
The right size bulldozer.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 17, 2014)

FluidSound said:


> what to do against big opponents?


Try to move yourself to be outside of your opponent's moving path. This way, your opponent's body will not collapse on top of your body. Try to use "wheeling step". 

In the following footwork, if your opponent 

- steps in left leg, attack his left leg.
- refuses to step in, attack his right leg.


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## blindsage (Feb 17, 2014)

Do you have any push hands experience?  Staying relaxed and letting your tension go will help you feel and take advantage of his tension.  If he won't let you touch his arms or anything else then you aren't using sticking.  It doesn't require his permission, it just requires contact, any contact.  From there you can feel his center.  Then you can work on other things.  But if you don't know how to adhere to him, much of your Taiji will be lost.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 17, 2014)

*Okay I am not a taijiquan guy* but I do know a little about sparring and grappling.  You said you are a good striker.  So why did you not strike?  It seems to me like you almost put one or both hands behind your back and said to your opponent let's have a go.  Not necessarily good on your part.  If you do not want to strike him because you might hurt him then at least utilize pushes with your hands to his head to control his center.  Personally, I never did like getting involved in friendly matches where I would have to limit what I do.  That gives away too much of an advantage to your opponent.  Imagine your friend saying okay I will not grapple or try to take you down when that is what he is good at.  Either engage with what you do best with rules of course and some way to be safe or don't engage.  Just sayin.


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## FluidSound (Feb 17, 2014)

@Blindsage

I have some pushing hands experience, but we mostly practice against strikes and pushing. I get a little fearful of grappling and my instructor does not usually use much force or strength to take me down, even considering how large he is. (He's bigger than the guy I was facing. I could tell the difference. When I face my instructor, I feel as if he did almost nothing to get me where I am. When I fought my friend, I felt like I was holding off a boulder). Though, even in pushing hands, I have trouble knowing when to attack. I also have trouble with Qin na.



Brian R. VanCise said:


> *Okay I am not a taijiquan guy* but I do know a little about sparring and grappling.  You said you are a good striker.  So why did you not strike?  It seems to me like you almost put one or both hands behind your back and said to your opponent let's have a go.  Not necessarily good on your part.  If you do not want to strike him because you might hurt him then at least utilize pushes with your hands to his head to control his center.  Personally, I never did like getting involved in friendly matches where I would have to limit what I do.  That gives away too much of an advantage to your opponent.  Imagine your friend saying okay I will not grapple or try to take you down when that is what he is good at.  Either engage with what you do best with rules of course and some way to be safe or don't engage.  Just sayin.




Your points are great. Still, he is a friend of mine. I do not wish to hurt him.

1. Tai Ji strikes are not aimed at the muscles. They're aimed at the bones or vitals generally (Kidney shots, balls, eyes, etc...)

2. He has little idea how to strike. I feel it would be unfair.

3. I am a terrible grappler and want to become better at Tai Ji Quan grappling.

Once I teach my friend how to strike, then I will allow rules. Otherwise, I could have struck his arm easily, kidney shotted him, poked him in the eyes, punched him in the throat, struck his heart, kicked him in the crotch, etc...

My goal is not to win, but to become a better practitioner. I know many say "winning is becoming better", but I never believe this. From the matches I lost (5/5 matches lost), I learned more about myself and about my friend.

One thing I learned is, he likes learning to fight as well and loves professional wrestling. (I knew the liking of professional wrestling part) He has monitored and does practice it sometimes and does work out. I do not work out and wish to fight using technique over strength, however, I am unsure of his minset. I think he loves wrestling due to it's cheesyness, but he does pay attention to the moves and train in strength for health reasons and this is what I learned.


We are both amateurs. These are mine and his stats at an amateur level. (Meaning the numbers are relative to amateur rank, *NOT *master or professional rank)

*Me
*
Relaxation - 5/10 - I do have social anxiety. This is actually good for me considering this and it is due to Tai Ji. I remained relaxed throughout the match but I will admit he was more relaxed than me. I was a bit nervous but had a kind of an odd flow in this. I would circulate between relaxed and nervous. I know the first lu the best, but it is still my weakest due to my anxiety. When I started Tai Ji, my relaxation would be at a negative point. By negative, I mean it would have been -10/10. The first lu is my best. I practice it slowly and have it memorized like the back of my hand because of my love for it. It has helped me not only in martial arts, but in life. It is something that always reminds me, I will be better as long as I practice.

Technique - 6/10 - The reason my technique was better was because, I actually was far more capable of escaping his grabs and knew how to keep him from overpowering me for the most part. He had very few moves and would mostly attempt to either lift me up with strength or overwhelm me by trying to use his whole wait to pull me to the ground. During this, I was capable of leading him. If it was a real fight, I could have actually pushed him against a wall, however, I don't want to break anything and we would move away from the wall in order for safe measure. For the most part, I would resist just enough to keep him off me and allow him to waste energy. This makes me think I should have been patient, however his stamina is better than mine. I lost no real energy during the fight, except when he'd pin me to the ground.

Balance - 6/10 - I was stable enough to keep standing and walking while he was grappling me considering his strength and was able to stay on my fight. My knees were bent just enough when they needed to be.

Flexibility - 5/10 - He was moving rather rigidly whenever he'd move. I would retreat a lot, however, I was capable of moving my body to places that allowed me to move and escape his grabs and such. The flexibility was mostly my attempts at escaping. However, I was rather unsure what to do at that point.

Strength - 2/10 - I will be brutally honest. I have very little muscle. All the muscle I've gained has been from doing the form and even then, that takes time compared to what he does.

*Friend

*Relaxation - 6/10 - He joked around a lot and was comfortable most of the time. He was more relaxed than me but I could tell he'd stiffen up when he'd grapple me. Plus, he's naturally more relaxed than me.

Technique - 4/10 - His technique revolved around very few moves and all of them involving brute strength. He was just as unsure of what to do during the clinching parts of our fight as I was but would attempt to overwhelm me with pure, brute strength to try to get me to the ground and pin me using his weight.

Balance - 4/10 - His stance was a little poor. He would never be completely stable, but being a big guy, it was hard for me to consider my options. I was a little intimidated by his sized and overthought a lot, however his stances would either be very closed or involved a lot of forward momentum. Twisting my waist didn't throw him off balance, but I could tell that he'd have trouble standing if I did twist my waist. However, this was hard due to all the force being pushed against my whole body.

Flexibility - 3/10 - He wouldn't really escape many of my moves or pushes. Most of him relied on strength and some wrestling technique. However, I say he's inflexible because, he would have a very hard time getting in on me considering I was smaller. For the most part, he would clinch.

Strength - 9/10 - This is definitely where he beats me. He has a lot more strength than me and is naturally taller than me. Most of the times he won involved lifting me over his shoulder and pinning me to the floor. He would use a lot of his strength when clinching and immediately tried to bring me to the ground. He would almost NEVER use one hand, but both and use his body usually. He wouldn't go low for balance, but to make an attempt to grab my leg. He would go high in order to bring me down from the top. But most of it involved him sitting on me/pinning me. While he pinned me, he'd use his body to crush me while I was on the floor.


In any case, this is just my evaluation.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 18, 2014)

I hear what you are saying and like your evaluation of yourself and your friend.  However, it looks to me that what you are good at may not correlate well to having a match with your friend unless you add in some striking.  Why not buy some headgear that will protect both of you and then spar.  Then you can use strikes and he can still wrestle.  There are lots of different headgear options out there even with full face masks.  You can also limit where you strike just taking out kidney strikes and go from there.  That way you can utilize your skills and your friend can utilize his.  Then you might get a better understanding of where you are really at.


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## FluidSound (Feb 18, 2014)

You make a very good point. Still, it's not so much about determining where I'm at, much or less, getting better. Not to mention that I want to learn how to do Tai Ji Grappling and Qin Na more. My Sifu said that while he was pushing his weight down on me, I could have used my wrist to lock his elbows from below and controlled him better instead of trying to aim for his body or shoulders when they were too hard for me to reach. I could have also possibly used hun (roll back) but I was too nervous to do that. His weight was overbearing. As far as lifting me, he showed me another move, however, I'd have to practice it.


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## clfsean (Feb 19, 2014)

I'm curious... how long have you been practicing taiji?


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 19, 2014)

clfsean said:


> I'm curious... how long have you been practicing taiji?



Good question and one I was about to ask myself


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 19, 2014)

FluidSound said:


> You make a very good point. Still, it's not so much about determining where I'm at, much or less, getting better. Not to mention that I want to learn how to do Tai Ji Grappling and Qin Na more. My Sifu said that while he was pushing his weight down on me, I could have used my wrist to lock his elbows from below and controlled him better instead of trying to aim for his body or shoulders when they were too hard for me to reach. I could have also possibly used hun (roll back) but I was too nervous to do that. His weight was overbearing. As far as lifting me, he showed me another move, however, I'd have to practice it.



Taiji Grappling is stand up grappling but not exactly the same as other styles of standup grappling and Taiji Qinna, done right takes a long time, but qinna in and of it self, not so long.

And I have never heard Roll back called "hun" I know it as Lu, what dialect is that?


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## Tony Dismukes (Feb 19, 2014)

I'll disagree with Brian on this one.  If you want to develop your grappling skills to the level where you can control and defend yourself from a bigger, stronger opponent, then free grappling without strikes is an excellent training method.  The point isn't to prove how tough your are - it's to learn.  Without the distractions of punches coming at your face you can pay a lot more attention to studying the subtleties of balance, structure, and energy that are necessary to overcome someone who has superior athletic attributes.

Learning to overcome a bigger stronger opponent in a free-form setting where he is free to use his attributes as he wishes takes a lot of time and practice.  It can be frustrating - you'll find times where you have superior leverage but his strength is sufficient to overcome your leverage advantage, which hardly seems fair.  You need to go through the experience enough times to learn how to never give them the chance to use their full strength against you.  Be patient and keep working at it.  There are no shortcuts.

Once you're pinned on the ground I'm not sure that Tai Chi has a lot to help you.  You may have to look at some of the grappling arts which deal with that situation.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 19, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I'll disagree with Brian on this one.  If you want to develop your grappling skills to the level where you can control and defend yourself from a bigger, stronger opponent, then free grappling without strikes is an excellent training method.  The point isn't to prove how tough your are - it's to learn.  Without the distractions of punches coming at your face you can pay a lot more attention to studying the subtleties of balance, structure, and energy that are necessary to overcome someone who has superior athletic attributes.
> 
> Learning to overcome a bigger stronger opponent in a free-form setting where he is free to use his attributes as he wishes takes a lot of time and practice.  It can be frustrating - you'll find times where you have superior leverage but his strength is sufficient to overcome your leverage advantage, which hardly seems fair.  You need to go through the experience enough times to learn how to never give them the chance to use their full strength against you.  Be patient and keep working at it.  There are no shortcuts.



My sifu is several inches shorter than me, over 20 years older than me and I bet I have almost 100lbs on him and he can control me and throw me around like a rag doll at times and he seems to stay relaxed while doing it too. He also has over 30 years experience on me too



Tony Dismukes said:


> Once you're pinned on the ground I'm not sure that Tai Chi has a lot to help you.  You may have to look at some of the grappling arts which deal with that situation.



Qinna; basically the idea is to get off the ground, not stay there, because it is not a place you want to be.

Another thing, not that it is impossible... because it isn't, but it is not all that easy to get a good taiji person on the ground. Talked with a taiji guy that went to train MMA and he was having a blast. He was getting beat and learning a lot about his taiji but the one thing the guys that went for grappling were having an issue with was his rooting and relaxation, he was not as easy to get on the ground as the guys they were use to dealing with. He was learning and they were learning too.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 19, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I'll disagree with Brian on this one.  If you want to develop your grappling skills to the level where you can control and defend yourself from a bigger, stronger opponent, then free grappling without strikes is an excellent training method.  The point isn't to prove how tough your are - it's to learn.  Without the distractions of punches coming at your face you can pay a lot more attention to studying the subtleties of balance, structure, and energy that are necessary to overcome someone who has superior athletic attributes.
> 
> Learning to overcome a bigger stronger opponent in a free-form setting where he is free to use his attributes as he wishes takes a lot of time and practice.  It can be frustrating - you'll find times where you have superior leverage but his strength is sufficient to overcome your leverage advantage, which hardly seems fair.  You need to go through the experience enough times to learn how to never give them the chance to use their full strength against you.  Be patient and keep working at it.  There are no shortcuts.
> 
> Once you're pinned on the ground I'm not sure that Tai Chi has a lot to help you.  You may have to look at some of the grappling arts which deal with that situation.




Tony the way I take it that this is just a get together backyard sparring session between to friends without any instructor present.  Tai Chi vs. Big Time Wrestling so to speak.  I think the Tai Chi person should avail themselves of what they do and not tie their hands behind their back.  This is sparring not a situation where neither are learning at that time and space from an actual instructor present.  

However, you and I are in total agreement that to develop your grappling skills you need to work with a grappling instructor (insert art, your and my preference being BJJ) where you concentrate specifically on that system and its movement without striking.  You can add in strikes once the basic movement is fine tuned to a good level.


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## Blaze Dragon (Feb 19, 2014)

Would you be comfortable posting a video of the two of you sparring? If your concerned with your identity, perhaps wearing masks?

I would be interested in seeing how he is coming at you. If he's willing to help you improve I would suggest breaking it down. Have him just do his initial grab and work with it. Over and over. The problem comes in becoming comfortable only with how he moves. If you could find more opponents you'll find your skills improve more...instead of comfort level with only one or two people.

The main issue as has been stated, is that there is not going to be a cure all move. (I know your aware of this). Depending on how he comes into grab your arms, I would suggest working with this.

For example a one handed grab, rolling towards the thumb and around to grab his arm, and turning with his forward momentum. Let him fall, better yet help him 

I also think if he is getting too close you might consider placing your legs, to trip up his.

For example basic ward off, if you step first to put your foot behind his heel and then ward off. Or you knee behind his and ward off, you'll find even very big people will fall.

Hope you find this helpful


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## FluidSound (Feb 19, 2014)

It's been about 3 to 4 years now.

And I'll see about the video thing. For now, I have to let my sternum rest.


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## Blaze Dragon (Feb 21, 2014)

FluidSound said:


> It's been about 3 to 4 years now.
> 
> And I'll see about the video thing. For now, I have to let my sternum rest.



What has been 3 to 4 years?


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