# The biggest problem in Wing Chun (and most other TCMA).



## geezer (Oct 24, 2021)

According to a friend of mine (who is not a Wing Chun practitioner) the biggest problem that he sees in WC sparring on (heaven help us) _YouTube_, is a lack of real punching power. Sure, he says, "one-inch punch" demos and all that are fine and dandy, but if you can't land a _really heavy punch_ in actual sparring, your opponent will quickly realize that you can't hurt him and tear you apart.

This guy also points out all the usual complaints about "lack of mobility", "lack of head movement" and lack of "regular sparring against resistant opponents" from other systems ...systems that do train with good resistance. But whatever the reason, he feels that this lack of punching power dooms most WC fighters to failure.

Now I have experienced some really powerful WC hitters. _Emin Boztepe_ anyone? But how do they compare in their weight class against equally experienced strikers ... _boxers_, _Muay Thai fighters_, and today's _MMA fighters?_ ...Especially in action, rather than in demos?

Sure, this is hardly a novel point of view, but you know, I think it's a legit question. Is our punching a problem? Any thoughts?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 24, 2021)

This is why I lose interest in the striking art many years ago. In the striking art training, I just don't know how to put my opponent down on the ground without hurting him. I can throw my opponent down 100 times today and tomorrow he will still be my training partner. If I knock my opponent down just once, I won't be able to see he tomorrow.

I can do this 100 times on my opponent daily and he will be OK. As long as I can move my opponent's gravity center to be outside of his base, I don't really need to throw him, the rest is just the gravity. I don't know how to apply this method in any striking art.


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## geezer (Oct 24, 2021)

What you say above _is a problem_. On the other can it _*is*_ possible to train without hitting too hard. We used to train in space rented at a boxing gym and FWIW, I asked one of the old boxing coaches about this problem. He said, _"Well you can pull your punches and not hit so hard, but never pull back on your speed"_. 

So you can train angles, speed and timing without destroying your partners. And lighter punches still mess with your opponents balance, and ability to respond, etc. And of course, there is always bag work for practicing your power. 

Still, I'm getting "up there" in years, have some health issues (cardiac), and don't really want to eat a bunch of punches. Guess the truth is I don't really want to fight anymore. At least not hard. Maybe that makes me a _wimp._ Funny thing is, these days that doesn't bother me so much! 

I saw a window decal on the back of a pickup earlier today. It said:

_Soy mandilón ...¡Y Qué!_

Cracked me up! So maybe I should get one that says something like:  

_Soy pendejo flojo... ¡Y Qué! _


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 25, 2021)

geezer said:


> But how do they compare in their weight class against equally experienced strikers ... _boxers_, _Muay Thai fighters_, and today's _MMA fighters?_


I don't have any personal experience with top WC guys like Boztepe, but based  just on watching guys like him on video and my personal experience training with @yak sao , I would say that no, WC practitioners don't hit as hard as equally trained boxers or Muay Thai fighters in the same weight class. Not even close.


geezer said:


> Sure, this is hardly a novel point of view, but you know, I think it's a legit question. Is our punching a problem? Any thoughts?


Well ... it depends. You certainly can learn to hit hard enough to hurt someone and get their attention using WC punching methods. As I understand it, the whole game plan is built around being able to land a barrage of quick punches for cumulative effect, while suppressing counters. If you pull that off, you could rattle someone's brain enough to win a fight. My suspicion is that this originated with a strategy of pre-emptively overwhelming an opponent at close range at the start of a fight. (Like sucker-punching someone with 10 rapid punches rather than 1 haymaker.)

Problems ... there are a few. 

First, despite the legends about Ng Mui and the art being created by a woman, it's very hard for a small person to develop the sort of power that a tough heavyweight would need to respect using just WC body mechanics. Not saying it's impossible, but you would have to be very, very, very good. 

Secondly, if you aren't able to pull off the whole "overwhelm them with volume" strategy (which can happen for a number of reasons), then you're stuck in a position of trading individual shots with someone who hits a lot harder. That's not a good situation to be in. 

I think WC style punches can be effective in the right time and place. I'll mix them into my sparring opportunistically. I'll see an open line where I can slip in 2-3 quick close range linear shots rather than going for a power shot which might take longer and get blocked. (If I was better at WC, I'm sure I'd find more opportunities to land those.) The mistake, IMO, is relying on those particular body mechanics all the time. You need the ability to mix it up. And you need the ability to threaten with legitimate knockout power. If you watch good boxers, they will use lighter punches, medium punches, and knockout power punches in combination as the moment demands.

I think a large percentage of WC practitioners have never experienced working with actual fighters. They don't understand the power that these guys can generate or how much impact they can take and still keep moving forward. It changes your perspective.


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## Buka (Oct 25, 2021)

All the WC practitioners I've trained with had a lot of experience in other arts. My JKD instructor was also a WC guy, as well as a purple belt in BJJ (at the time, probably higher by now) Another WC guy I'm friends with also trained and competed in boxing and kickboxing.

So I dunno, when they used to hit me with WC punches it hurt as much as any other good fighter's punches. There's also the person you run into on rare occasion who have "heavy hands". It's like their hands are made of rocks or something.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 25, 2021)

geezer said:


> According to a friend of mine (who is not a Wing Chun practitioner) the biggest problem that he sees in WC sparring on (heaven help us) _YouTube_, is a lack of real punching power. Sure, he says, "one-inch punch" demos and all that are fine and dandy, but if you can't land a _really heavy punch_ in actual sparring, your opponent will quickly realize that you can't hurt him and tear you apart.
> 
> This guy also points out all the usual complaints about "lack of mobility", "lack of head movement" and lack of "regular sparring against resistant opponents" from other systems ...systems that do train with good resistance. But whatever the reason, he feels that this lack of punching power dooms most WC fighters to failure.
> 
> ...


I am a firm believer in the man, not the style. That said, in my limited experience sparring WC guys, they are fast with hands and can advance quickly to attack the center line. They tend to be vulnerable to hooks and longer range attacks that come from diagonals. Circling punches seem to work well. Don’t fight their fight, stay off the center line and keep moving lateral to their center front. I am not saying they aren’t dangerous, just giving my two penny insights gained from taking a few shots up my middle.


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## geezer (Oct 25, 2021)

Buka said:


> There's also the person you run into on rare occasion who have "heavy hands". It's like their hands are made of rocks or something.


Had a si-dai like that. Not a whole lot bigger than me, but he had thick bones from head to feet and big boney fists. He was a funny, goofy guy but could hit really hard. Even our sifu, Leung Ting remarked more than once about his "heavy punch". 

Sadly, I heard that he was killed in a robbery in San Francisco many years ago. Heavy hands and a brave heart are no match for guns.


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## APL76 (Oct 25, 2021)

geezer said:


> According to a friend of mine (who is not a Wing Chun practitioner) the biggest problem that he sees in WC sparring on (heaven help us) _YouTube_, is a lack of real punching power. Sure, he says, "one-inch punch" demos and all that are fine and dandy, but if you can't land a _really heavy punch_ in actual sparring, your opponent will quickly realize that you can't hurt him and tear you apart.
> 
> This guy also points out all the usual complaints about "lack of mobility", "lack of head movement" and lack of "regular sparring against resistant opponents" from other systems ...systems that do train with good resistance. But whatever the reason, he feels that this lack of punching power dooms most WC fighters to failure.
> 
> ...


My sifu says exactly the same thing. One of the biggest things lacking in wing chun he sees is power in their punches.

One of the reasons I personally don't see a lack of sparring as THE problem with wing chun, lack of a decent punch (or solid stance, or stability through the body, or limited to no ability to do footwork) is a more fundamental problem than lack of sparring. All the full contact sparring in the world won't fix things if you can't even punch to begin with.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 25, 2021)

My wing Chun Sifu could hit really hard.  Felt like what I imagine sticking my finger in a light socket would feel like.  He had a full-contact bout with a Muay Thai fellow, and won by knockout.  

So I dunno.  I think it’s the person, more than the style.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 25, 2021)

geezer said:


> According to a friend of mine (who is not a Wing Chun practitioner) the biggest problem that he sees in WC sparring on (heaven help us) _YouTube_, is a lack of real punching power. Sure, he says, "one-inch punch" demos and all that are fine and dandy, but if you can't land a _really heavy punch_ in actual sparring, your opponent will quickly realize that you can't hurt him and tear you apart.
> 
> This guy also points out all the usual complaints about "lack of mobility", "lack of head movement" and lack of "regular sparring against resistant opponents" from other systems ...systems that do train with good resistance. But whatever the reason, he feels that this lack of punching power dooms most WC fighters to failure.
> 
> ...


Sometimes it seems like everybody has the answer how to fix what everybody else is doing.


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 25, 2021)

geezer said:


> According to a friend of mine (who is not a Wing Chun practitioner) the biggest problem that he sees in WC sparring on (heaven help us) _YouTube_, is a lack of real punching power. Sure, he says, "one-inch punch" demos and all that are fine and dandy, but if you can't land a _really heavy punch_ in actual sparring, your opponent will quickly realize that you can't hurt him and tear you apart.
> 
> This guy also points out all the usual complaints about "lack of mobility", "lack of head movement" and lack of "regular sparring against resistant opponents" from other systems ...systems that do train with good resistance. But whatever the reason, he feels that this lack of punching power dooms most WC fighters to failure.
> 
> ...



The real issue is the lack of this, in Wing Chun sparring.


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## geezer (Oct 25, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> My wing Chun Sifu could hit really hard.  Felt like what I imagine sticking my finger in a light socket would feel like.  *He had a full-contact bout with a Muay Thai fellow, and won by knockout.*


If you can't show the video, it didn't happen! 



...on the other hand, by that standard, I was never born.


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## geezer (Oct 25, 2021)

Oily Dragon said:


> The real issue is the lack of this, in Wing Chun sparring.


Whattya mean? That's _exactly _how I spar ...and you don't?


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## Flying Crane (Oct 25, 2021)

Maybe it just needs more cowbell.


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## Callen (Oct 25, 2021)

geezer said:


> Sure, this is hardly a novel point of view, but you know, I think it's a legit question. Is our punching a problem? Any thoughts?



Your friend's speculation sounds more like the result of overall poor training.


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 25, 2021)

geezer said:


> Whattya mean? That's _exactly _how I spar ...and you don't?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 26, 2021)

geezer said:


> I think it's a legit question. Is our punching a problem? Any thoughts?


Is the following principle commonly used in the WC system?

- A punches, B blocks.
- A uses punching hand to pull B"s blocking arm and ...


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## drop bear (Oct 26, 2021)

geezer said:


> According to a friend of mine (who is not a Wing Chun practitioner) the biggest problem that he sees in WC sparring on (heaven help us) _YouTube_, is a lack of real punching power. Sure, he says, "one-inch punch" demos and all that are fine and dandy, but if you can't land a _really heavy punch_ in actual sparring, your opponent will quickly realize that you can't hurt him and tear you apart.
> 
> This guy also points out all the usual complaints about "lack of mobility", "lack of head movement" and lack of "regular sparring against resistant opponents" from other systems ...systems that do train with good resistance. But whatever the reason, he feels that this lack of punching power dooms most WC fighters to failure.
> 
> ...



Yes and no.

It shouldn't be that much because you can punch hard by moving in to position throwing a ton of shots and hopefully catching the guy off footed.

And so it is that body connection and forward motion that makes the shot.

But for some reason that doesn't really seem to happen.

Mabye because you achieve that with really good footwork. And I don't think wing chun footwork is all that great.

Amateur boxing is a good example how people footwork their way towards effective punching.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 26, 2021)

geezer said:


> This guy also points out all the usual complaints about "lack of mobility",


In another forum, someone put up a WC video. Since in that video, both persons are always standing, that video doesn't receive good comment.

Can you create a WC video that you can "put" your opponent down ASAP? How?


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## geezer (Oct 27, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In another forum, someone put up a WC video. Since in that video, both persons are always standing, that video doesn't receive good comment.
> 
> Can you create a WC video that you can "put" your opponent down ASAP? How?


Not sure I understand the question. Do you mean "knock 'm down" ....like with a really hard punch? ....or do you mean "throw 'em down" and slam them on the floor? ....or something else?

Once I was in an open FMA-based seminar (not WC), dealing with empty hands work (not weapons) and the instructor asked us each to show him a response to a specific attack using our own MA system. I showed one possible WC solution. 

The instructor's response was "Where's your_ finishing_ technique?" Typically in WC you don't see combinations ending in a specific "finishing move" like you do in some systems.  There is no "final" power punch, throw or submission. You just keep attacking until the threat is stopped, or until you can escape and run away.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 27, 2021)

geezer said:


> Not sure I understand the question. Do you mean "knock 'm down" ....like with a really hard punch? ....or do you mean "throw 'em down" and slam them on the floor? ....or something else? ...  "Where's your_ finishing_ technique?"


That's the main point. Where is your finishing move?

Compare to the following 2 videos:

1. A throws a punch in front of B's face and then pulls back. Both remain standing.
2. A takes B down in 1 second. A remains standing while B is on the ground.

1. it's very difficult to demonstrate forward pressure, strong rooting, body connection, ...
2. it's very easy to demonstrate forward pressure, strong rooting, body connection, ...

People put up some WC clips in the forum. Since in the video, both persons remain standing, the video just look too "civilized" to me.

If you can find a way to express the aggressive, powerful, deadly, ... WC spirits in a video, may be that method can be applied on the WC daily training.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 27, 2021)

geezer said:


> Not sure I understand the question. Do you mean "knock 'm down" ....like with a really hard punch? ....or do you mean "throw 'em down" and slam them on the floor? ....or something else?
> 
> Once I was in an open FMA-based seminar (not WC), dealing with empty hands work (not weapons) and the instructor asked us each to show him a response to a specific attack using our own MA system. I showed one possible WC solution.
> 
> The instructor's response was "Where's your_ finishing_ technique?" Typically in WC you don't see combinations ending in a specific "finishing move" like you do in some systems.  There is no "final" power punch, throw or submission. You just keep attacking until the threat is stopped, or until you can escape and run away.


I don’t see anything wrong with that.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 27, 2021)

geezer said:


> There is no "final" power punch, throw or submission. You just keep attacking until the threat is stopped, or until you can escape and run away.


Many CMA systems have take down in it. I'm sure WC also has take down in it. So far we have not seen many WC take down video yet. Why?

Even Karate has take down in the system.


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 27, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Many CMA systems have take down in it. I'm sure WC also has take down in it.


I have a theory about this, but it's pretty wild.

Here it is in a nutshell: Wing Chun students don't know what they're doing or how to train.

And the people who can crush people with the adduction stance on the ground are the true masters, but try telling that to the Wing Chun community, addicted to standing up.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 27, 2021)

Oily Dragon said:


> I have a theory about this, but it's pretty wild.
> 
> Here it is in a nutshell: Wing Chun students don't know what they're doing or how to train.
> 
> And the people who can crush people with the adduction stance on the ground are the true masters, but try telling that to the Wing Chun community, addicted to standing up.


You can use WC

- double Tan Shou to separate your opponent's arms away from his head.
- Fu Shou to grab on your opponent's wrist.
- Bong Shou to obtain under hook.
- ...

The tools to be used to integrate the striking art and the grappling art are there. It's up to the WC guys to utilize those tools in 100% capacity.


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## geezer (Oct 27, 2021)

geezer said:


> Not sure I understand the question. Do you mean "knock 'm down" ....like with a really hard punch? ....or do you mean "throw 'em down" and slam them on the floor? ....or something else?
> 
> Once I was in an open FMA-based seminar (not WC), dealing with empty hands work (not weapons) and the instructor asked us each to show him a response to a specific attack using our own MA system. I showed one possible WC solution.
> 
> The instructor's response was "Where's your_ finishing_ technique?" Typically in WC you don't see combinations ending in a specific "finishing move" like you do in some systems.  There is no "final" power punch, throw or submission. You just keep attacking until the threat is stopped, or until you can escape and run away.





Oily Dragon said:


> I have a theory about this, but it's pretty wild.
> 
> Here it is in a nutshell: Wing Chun students don't know what they're doing or how to train.
> 
> And the people who can crush people with the adduction stance on the ground are the true masters, but try telling that to the Wing Chun community, addicted to standing up.


Ummm.... why do you think we_ don't _practice throws and using "goat-riding stance" to clamp people on the ground? It's pretty basic to the system.

Unless you mean using adduction _while rolling_. I haven't found that very practical. Have you?


Kung Fu Wang said:


> You can use WC
> 
> - double Tan Shou to separate your opponent's arms away from his head.
> - Fu Shou to grab on your opponent's wrist.
> ...


I do like sweeps and throws, and they are integral to the system. I don't know why a lot of guys who do WC don't enjoy that part.

Now I don't play with that stuff so much (back injury) but in my younger days I lost several students because they didn't like closing to clinch or tie-up and throw. Not because they were "addicted to standing up" as Oily said. But more like because they were _allergic to going down to the mat. _

And BTW, we _weren't_ going hard like this guy: 





Too bad. I think that's awesome!


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 28, 2021)

geezer said:


> Ummm.... why do you think we_ don't _practice throws and using "goat-riding stance" to clamp people on the ground? It's pretty basic to the system.


Because "We" is a pretty useless pronoun.  People misuse it a lot, like you just did.

But if that was the royal _we_, then yes, you probably do, but you're a very, very, very lonely _we_.

_We_ both know there are so many_ wes _in Wing Chun, they tend to argue about everything, like that the goat riding stance is standing combat stance even though that's silly.


geezer said:


> Unless you mean using adduction _while rolling_. I haven't found that very practical. Have you?


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 28, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You can use WC
> 
> - double Tan Shou to separate your opponent's arms away from his head.
> - Fu Shou to grab on your opponent's wrist.
> ...


Well then we agree the "WC guys" have failed pretty hard.  

But you seem to like my theory.  Thank you, I like it because it's simple, and practically every Youtube video of Wing Chun supports it. There is an occasional exception, but let's face it, integrating Snake, Crane, and Dragon kung fu is not easy.  Most of these "Wing Chun guys" will never even approach mastering one of those animal aspects, let alone three.

What you'll see is a lot of attempts at Snake hands, Dragon elbows, some Crane defense.  The Unicorn (get the joke?) is that ultra rare Wing Chun student who not only learns all three well, but combines them and then hits the anvil with the hammer.  That last part (the sparring) is where the comfort ends, but where so many Wing Chun students hit a wall.


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## geezer (Oct 28, 2021)

Oily Dragon said:


> View attachment 27486


OK Oily, I was all set to argue with your crazy generalizations, but I keep forgetting what I was annoyed about when I look at this awesome meme you posted. 

Did you come up with this twist on the "All warfare is deception" meme? 'Cause I want this on a T-shirt _...bad!_


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 28, 2021)

geezer said:


> Is our punching a problem? Any thoughts?


I don't think punching is a sizable issue.  The biggest issue in my opinion will always be  System A vs System A sparring.   Wing Chun vs Wing Chun is not an issue.  Wing Chun vs other systems is.  My belief is that Wing Chun wasn't made to fight Wing Chun. That's what sports do.   In general, most martial arts systems were designed to defeat a different system.

The power of a strike will always vary depending on the system you are striking against.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 28, 2021)

Oily Dragon said:


> The real issue is the lack of this, in Wing Chun sparring.


I stand corrected.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 28, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Many CMA systems have take down in it. I'm sure WC also has take down in it. So far we have not seen many WC take down video yet. Why?
> 
> Even Karate has take down in the system.


I've seen WC take downs before. But you'll only see it with teachers who think System A vs System B.  If the teacher only cares about beating other Wing Chun then you won't see it.


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 28, 2021)

geezer said:


> OK Oily, I was all set to argue with your crazy generalizations, but I keep forgetting what I was annoyed about when I look at this awesome meme you posted.
> 
> Did you come up with this twist on the "All warfare is deception" meme? 'Cause I want this on a T-shirt _...bad!_


Yes, I made that, because it's true.

It's all yours.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 28, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I've seen WC take downs before. But you'll only see it with teachers who think System A vs System B.  If the teacher only cares about beating other Wing Chun then you won't see it.


One thing that I don't understand here. 

1. The boxing toolbox contains jab, cross, hook, uppercut.
2. The Judo toolbox contains hip throw, foot sweep, leg lift, leg block, ...
3. The WC toolbox contains Tan Shou, Fu Shou, Bong Shou.

Why does the WC system address defense tools more than offense tools?


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 28, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> One thing that I don't understand here.
> 
> 1. The boxing toolbox contains jab, cross, hook, uppercut.
> 2. The Judo toolbox contains hip throw, foot sweep, leg lift, leg block, ...
> ...


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 28, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Why does the WC system address defense tools more than offense tools?


Probably because they only spar with themselves and with each generation they start to assume that those are the types of attacks that they will be getting on the streets.  Kung fu in general is bad about stuff like that.  Not all systems, but a lot.


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## drop bear (Oct 29, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> One thing that I don't understand here.
> 
> 1. The boxing toolbox contains jab, cross, hook, uppercut.
> 2. The Judo toolbox contains hip throw, foot sweep, leg lift, leg block, ...
> ...



I thought they were offensive tools.


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## Cynik75 (Oct 29, 2021)

geezer said:


> Sure, this is hardly a novel point of view, but you know, I think it's a legit question. Is our punching a problem? Any thoughts?


Gloves changes everything. Nobody hits very hard without gloves and tapes. Old pugilistic matches since antiqiuty till Quinsberry rules according to historical sources lastel very long sometimes.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 29, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> One thing that I don't understand here.
> 
> 1. The boxing toolbox contains jab, cross, hook, uppercut.
> 2. The Judo toolbox contains hip throw, foot sweep, leg lift, leg block, ...
> ...


The wing Chun toolbox contains far more than tan, fu, and bong.  You can’t pick three random items and then make a blanket statement from them.


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 29, 2021)

drop bear said:


> I thought they were offensive tools.


I agree, I too am frequently offended by Wing Chun students.


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## wckf92 (Oct 29, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Why does the WC system address defense tools more than offense tools?



Oh dear


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## Callen (Oct 29, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> One thing that I don't understand here.
> 
> 1. The boxing toolbox contains jab, cross, hook, uppercut.
> 2. The Judo toolbox contains hip throw, foot sweep, leg lift, leg block, ...
> ...


This is a very limited view of what the Wing Chun toolbox "contains". Observation alone, is usually not enough to formulate accurate conclusions about the functionality, concepts, and principles of the Wing Chun system.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 29, 2021)

Callen said:


> This is a very limited view of what the Wing Chun toolbox "contains". Observation alone, is usually not enough to formulate accurate conclusions about the functionality, concepts, and principles of the Wing Chun system.


In another thread, people asked "What's your finish move?"

What are the rest of the tools in the WC toolbox that can be used to finish the job.


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## wckf92 (Oct 29, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In another thread, people asked "What's your finish move?"
> 
> What are the rest of the tools in the WC toolbox that can be used to finish the job.



a hammer can build and destroy. Choose your path. That's why there is a yang to the yin and vice versa.


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## Callen (Oct 29, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In another thread, people asked "What's your finish move?"
> 
> What are the rest of the tools in the WC toolbox that can be used to finish the job.



The essence of the system is that there are no “rest of the tools" in the Wing Chun toolbox. All of the concepts and principles of the system _are_ the toolbox, there is no single tool. Ever.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 29, 2021)

Oily Dragon said:


> I have a theory about this, but it's pretty wild.
> 
> Here it is in a nutshell: Wing Chun students don't know what they're doing or how to train.
> 
> And the people who can crush people with the adduction stance on the ground are the true masters, but try telling that to the Wing Chun community, addicted to standing up.


Yikes! They will be coming to get you for your nutshell! Angry mob of WC proponents with pitchforks!


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## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 29, 2021)

Cynik75 said:


> Gloves changes everything. Nobody hits very hard without gloves and tapes. Old pugilistic matches since antiqiuty till Quinsberry rules according to historical sources lastel very long sometimes.


You need tape and gloves to hit hard?


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 29, 2021)

Cynik75 said:


> Gloves changes everything. Nobody hits very hard without gloves and tapes. Old pugilistic matches since antiqiuty till Quinsberry rules according to historical sources lastel very long sometimes.


I'm sorry, what? You can't hit hard without gloves and tape? Do you have osteogenesis imperfecta or some such disorder?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 29, 2021)

Callen said:


> This is a very limited view of what the Wing Chun toolbox "contains". Observation alone, is usually not enough to formulate accurate conclusions about the functionality, concepts, and principles of the Wing Chun system.


This may be the difference between WC and other CMA systems. From a cross training point of view, one may like to know what tools that WC system can offer in his toolbox.

For example, someone's toolbox may contain:

- Karate flying side kick.
- MT flying knee.
- wrestling single leg.
- Judo hip throw.
- boxing uppercut.

If that person wants to add in a new WC tool, what WC tool "might" that be?
- ...


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## drop bear (Oct 30, 2021)

Cynik75 said:


> Gloves changes everything. Nobody hits very hard without gloves and tapes. Old pugilistic matches since antiqiuty till Quinsberry rules according to historical sources lastel very long sometimes.



Yeah. I hear this one a lot and am quite simply not convinced.

What I think happened was pugilists had this unique niche area that was basically untested and so could say any old thing and people just believed them. Because very few people were willing to walk in to a bare knuckle fight.

Unfortunately we now have bare knuckle boxing as a mainstream competition. And so everyone can now see how bare knuckle boxing actually looks like. And who is good at it, what works and so on.

My estimation is they hit each other pretty hard.


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## Cynik75 (Oct 30, 2021)

drop bear said:


> ...
> Unfortunately we now have bare knuckle boxing as a mainstream competition....
> My estimation is they hit each other pretty hard.


True test should be done without tapes.  If hard hitting without gloves and tapes make the break of hand bones and wrists more often. Look at the exaple of Mike Tyson who broke his hand in street brawl.
And If hard hitting without gloves nad tapes makes the difference for long time health and career.


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## Callen (Oct 30, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If that person wants to add in a new WC tool, what WC tool "might" that be?


That's a good question. Unfortunately, I'm unable to give the answer you're looking for...

In order to utilize the Wing Chun system's concepts and principles effectively, one has to properly understand and train the system over time to develop the appropriate responses and actions. Merely attempting to mimic what someone thought was the best "tool", in my opinion, would result in a hard fail. This is due to the fact that the _system as a whole_ is the tool, there are no stand alone "techniques". From my perspective, it would be a mistake to view the Wing Chun system as consisting of separate shapes.

So I guess my takeaway is that if an experienced Wing Chun practitioner wanted to apply the system in addition to other Martial Art styles, he/she would simply utilize the concepts and principles of the system when it was most effective for them at that moment.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 30, 2021)

drop bear said:


> What I think happened was pugilists had this unique niche area that was basically untested and so could say any old thing and people just believed them. Because very few people were willing to walk in to a bare knuckle fight.


I wonder if medical treatment was a concern? We are talking about the 1700's where an infected cut could be a death sentence.  Penicillin was discovered until the 1900's.  If I were to travel back in time, I would probably want to keep my cuts and scrapes to a minimum, especially if I was in the city or farm areas.  We talked about how dangerous fist bite could be. These guys were fighters so they were probably aware of it.  A more technical punch would greatly lower the risk, carefully picking punches to the face to reduce the risk of fist bite.  

Just found this (source: A 26-year-old American is in a medically induced coma after getting hit with a throat punch during a recent bare-knuckle boxing match)

Francesco Ricchi, 26, was placed in a medically induced coma after a weekend bare-knuckle fight.
Ricchi defeated Noah Cutter in the third round of a match at the Bare Knuckle Fighting Championship 14 event in Florida.
Cutter later said on social media that he had learned his opponent had been taken to a hospital because of a throat punch that caused complications.
I guess we can validate the idea and principal of leopard fist to the throat.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 30, 2021)

Cynik75 said:


> True test should be done without tapes. If hard hitting without gloves and tapes make the break of hand bones and wrists more often.


You can still hit hard without gloves and tape.  The solution is in the fist structure that you are using and have a better way of targeting areas that reduce the risk of breaking the hand.  For example.

In dropbears video, we see them wildly swinging,  In many martial arts systems, the techniques are designed to position the opponent so you can get a cleaner strike on areas that don't break the hands.  I don't see this same positioning used in bare-knuckle fights.  I have seen one or 2 professional boxers use it, but didn't see it 30 years before.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 30, 2021)

Callen said:


> That's a good question. Unfortunately, I'm unable to give the answer you're looking for...
> 
> In order to utilize the Wing Chun system's concepts and principles effectively, one has to properly understand and train the system over time to develop the appropriate responses and actions. Merely attempting to mimic what someone thought was the best "tool", in my opinion, would result in a hard fail. This is due to the fact that the _system as a whole_ is the tool, there are no stand alone "techniques". From my perspective, it would be a mistake to view the Wing Chun system as consisting of separate shapes.
> 
> So I guess my takeaway is that if an experienced Wing Chun practitioner wanted to apply the system in addition to other Martial Art styles, he/she would simply utilize the concepts and principles of the system when it was most effective for them at that moment.


I don't think it's a difficult task.  We see some of this already in the different variations of WC.  One year someone shared a video oh him working WC principles in the ground game from top mount.


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## Callen (Oct 30, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I don't think it's a difficult task. We see some of this already in the different variations of WC. One year someone shared a video oh him working WC principles in the ground game from top mount.


I don't disagree that it's possible for some. But I believe the plausibility of some people successfully blending Wing Chun is a different topic altogether.

My response was directed specifically to the question asked about picking one "tool" from the Wing Chun system to add to other solutions. I think to ask that question, is to miss the essence of the Wing Chun system. All of the concepts and principles of the system _are_ the toolbox, there is no single tool.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 30, 2021)

Callen said:


> That's a good question. Unfortunately, I'm unable to give the answer you're looking for...
> 
> In order to utilize the Wing Chun system's concepts and principles effectively, one has to properly understand and train the system over time to develop the appropriate responses and actions. Merely attempting to mimic what someone thought was the best "tool", in my opinion, would result in a hard fail. This is due to the fact that the _system as a whole_ is the tool, there are no stand alone "techniques". From my perspective, it would be a mistake to view the Wing Chun system as consisting of separate shapes.
> 
> So I guess my takeaway is that if an experienced Wing Chun practitioner wanted to apply the system in addition to other Martial Art styles, he/she would simply utilize the concepts and principles of the system when it was most effective for them at that moment.


And I will add to that in saying that if you embrace the system and understand the principles it is built upon, then anything can become a technique if it can be applied with those principles.  You are not limited to the formal curriculum taught in class.  The formal curriculum is simply examples that express the principles clearly, so you can understand the concepts and learn how it works.  Once you understand it, you can apply whatever you want.  It is a springboard from which to do anything, a platform that you can then build on in anyway you like.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 30, 2021)

Callen said:


> I don't disagree that it's possible for some. But I believe the plausibility of some people successfully blending Wing Chun is a different topic altogether.
> 
> My response was directed specifically to the question asked about picking one "tool" from the Wing Chun system to add to other solutions. I think to ask that question, is to miss the essence of the Wing Chun system. All of the concepts and principles of the system _are_ the toolbox, there is no single tool.


I think it's possible.   Think of it as using the Technique and switching out the engine. Same technique different way to drive the power for the same movement.

Here's why:  A lot of what is shown here can be seen in Jow Ga forms.  Not performed the same way, but the mechanics are close enough for the techniques that I should not have problem doing the Wing Chun Variant and a Jow Ga student shouldn't have a problem doing the Jow Ga variant.   Boxer's shouldn't have problem doing the uppcut version as well.  Actual fighting will cause some changes in the way techniques look so I wouldn't get caught up in how it performed in forms.

The Bill Gee is similar to one of the main techniques in Jow Ga. It takes the same path, for us it's not specifically an eye poke even though we can use it that way.  From my understanding is that there's less opportunity to use it that way.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 30, 2021)

Callen said:


> I don't disagree that it's possible for some. But I believe the plausibility of some people successfully blending Wing Chun is a different topic altogether.
> 
> My response was directed specifically to the question asked about picking one "tool" from the Wing Chun system to add to other solutions. I think to ask that question, is to miss the essence of the Wing Chun system. All of the concepts and principles of the system _are_ the toolbox, there is no single tool.


I do agree with you about the blending of techniques when it comes to using the engine that drives the techniques.  I can't drive those similar techniques with a WC engine. If I do that then I'm no longer doing WC.  I can take the technique use a Jow Ga engine but at that Point I'm no longer doing WC I'm doing Jow Ga

Blending in such a way where WC technique uses WC engine and then switching off into something else is not easy to do in a way that it flows.  We can all jump in out of different system engines Jumping in and out is not the same as flowing.  Where Jow Ga would naturally flow into WC and WC can naturally flow back into Jow Ga where it's difficult to see when one begins and the other ends.  That is difficult to and I'm like you in that area.  I don't know if it's possible to do such a thing with all things.

Chocolate and milk blends well.  Hot Sauce and milk  probably not so much lol.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 30, 2021)

This type of WC footwork shown here has a better chance of working with my Jow Ga techniques.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 31, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Blending in such a way where WC technique uses WC engine and then switching off into something else is not easy to do in a way that it flows.


My friend Su, Yu-Chang had created a Baji-mantis engine and called his system Baji-mantis. 

IMO, 

- Baji engine uses grenade principle. 
- Praying mantis engine uses machine gun principle.
- Long fist engine uses rifle principle.

It's very difficult (if not impossible) to integrate into 1 engine.


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## Alan0354 (Nov 11, 2021)

geezer said:


> According to a friend of mine (who is not a Wing Chun practitioner) the biggest problem that he sees in WC sparring on (heaven help us) _YouTube_, is a lack of real punching power. Sure, he says, "one-inch punch" demos and all that are fine and dandy, but if you can't land a _really heavy punch_ in actual sparring, your opponent will quickly realize that you can't hurt him and tear you apart.
> 
> This guy also points out all the usual complaints about "lack of mobility", "lack of head movement" and lack of "regular sparring against resistant opponents" from other systems ...systems that do train with good resistance. But whatever the reason, he feels that this lack of punching power dooms most WC fighters to failure.
> 
> ...


I learn some WC, not an expert. If you talk about how they punch just from the form, it's not that powerful. But I find the essence of how WC punch is actually good in certain sense. Bruce Lee always showed how he* flex the wrist holding the fist vertically and use the knuckle of the baby finger to "nudge" at the target at the last moment to add the force*. I find that really useful. It is not easy to coordinate the timing, takes a lot of practice to do it.

For me, I would not follow with the WC stand, I find it no mobile at all, boxing and MMA people are a lot more mobile. I use boxing hands, but I added the WC punch in the sense that in some cases, I actually punch vertically instead of the usual fist at horizontal position with palm down when contact. I hold my fist vertical and use the nudge motion of WC. It really takes time to master this, but if you can coordinate the feet, waist, shoulder and the nudge together, the punch can be very strong and good penetration into the heavy bag.

*I am short*, I anticipate most people I face will be a few inches taller than me. I have to learn to punch high. I am surprise most MA and even boxing always punch at shoulder level. That's too easy. Try punching high, it's a different world. For you tall guys, it's not important. But for short people like me, it's vital to know how to punch high.

This is where the vertical WC punch shines. If you punch high with normal horizontal fist palm down. The first point of contact is* NOT *the big knuckles, it's the second knuckles of the fingers. So when the second knuckles make contact first, it gives and serve as cushion that *slow down* the punch until the big knuckle make contact. You loss a lot of power because the second knuckle slow the punch down. try it and you will see punching high.

Now if you punch WC vertical fist, your first knuckle contact the face is the big knuckle of the baby finger. Together with the "nudge" motion, you generate a lot of power unhindered.

It's NOT easy to get the synchronization(I think the term is Shin-gu-chi or something) and put all the force together at one point, I've been practice for a while. When you get it right, you will feel it, the *sound *of the bag and the *penetration* of the bag will tell you that you are doing it right.

Then I pull back, not like WC that let the fist hang out there.

Well, this is my non expert experience. I put a lot of time punching like this and it works for me. I even punch 6X6 wood pole to toughen my baby knuckles to do this kind of punch.




Another question, I don't recall I've seen punching bags in WC place, they have the wooden dummy, they have small bags on the wall to practice the punch like "tapping" on it instead of actually punch. To me, that's NOT useful. I don't find the wooden dummy useful at all. People don't fight like their sticky hands. People move around with footwork, you really cannot "stick" their hands. It might be useful under the WC rule that both party stick their hands out, but how useful is in real fighting where the opponent moves around, jabbing and kicking at you. But I do swear by the WC punches adding into boxing jab and cross.

JMHO


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## SuperSnakeCrane87 (May 1, 2022)

If you start doing body and head movement it ruins your structure and takes some of your moves that are dependent on structure offline because they won't have anything to support them.  Theres a time and a place for everything, you can either Tan a Hook like a WC practitioner, or duck it like a boxer...
how early did you spot it?
is it tight or looping?
what position are your hands currently in?


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## drop bear (May 1, 2022)

SuperSnakeCrane87 said:


> If you start doing body and head movement it ruins your structure and takes some of your moves that are dependent on structure offline because they won't have anything to support them.  Theres a time and a place for everything, you can either Tan a Hook like a WC practitioner, or duck it like a boxer...
> how early did you spot it?
> is it tight or looping?
> what position are your hands currently in?



Striking takes structure though. And you can combine that and head movement.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 1, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Striking takes structure though. And you can combine that and head movement.


I wonder if WC techniques require specific (in this case, perhaps upright) structure. The core grappling in the aiki arts I'm familiar with does, and if you change structure, you also change what techniques are available. Some have variants that can be done without the aiki body mechanics (using mechanics similar to Judo), but many of them - as I know them - don't work without the aiki structure. It's one of the limitations in studying an aiki art (and I suspect one of the reasons NGA includes some Judo/Jujitsu in its core).

If that's the case, it may be that adding head bobbing hinders significant portions of WC.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 1, 2022)

SuperSnakeCrane87 said:


> you can either Tan a Hook like a WC practitioner, or duck it like a boxer...


Do you imply that head leaning is against the WC principle? I don't like the idea that if I integrate something into my WC, my WC is no longer pure.

The term pure is the opposite of the term MMA.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 1, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I wonder if WC techniques require specific (in this case, perhaps upright) structure.


But the structure that when you play offense is different from the structure when you play defense.

When you try to throw me, if I collapse myself (no structure), you can't throw me. When I play "pull guard", my body has no structure.


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## drop bear (May 2, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I wonder if WC techniques require specific (in this case, perhaps upright) structure. The core grappling in the aiki arts I'm familiar with does, and if you change structure, you also change what techniques are available. Some have variants that can be done without the aiki body mechanics (using mechanics similar to Judo), but many of them - as I know them - don't work without the aiki structure. It's one of the limitations in studying an aiki art (and I suspect one of the reasons NGA includes some Judo/Jujitsu in its core).
> 
> If that's the case, it may be that adding head bobbing hinders significant portions of WC.



They could also be doing the wrong head movement. Or trying to use it the wrong way.

Which is easy to do.

Again I bet you if we looked at lomenchenco. You could incorporate chun structure in to that.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 2, 2022)

drop bear said:


> They could also be doing the wrong head movement. Or trying to use it the wrong way.
> 
> Which is easy to do.



Good thought. 



> Again I bet you if we looked at lomenchenco. You could incorporate chun structure in to that.


Another good thought. I don’t know WC at all well enough to know if that’s true, but it’d be a damned good place to start looking.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 2, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> But the structure that when you play offense is different from the structure when you play defense.
> 
> When you try to throw me, if I collapse myself (no structure), you can't throw me. When I play "pull guard", my body has no structure.



Yea. And from those points, you completely rule out some principles for yourself. If (and I don’t know if this is true) WC is analogous to the aiki structure portions of NGA, using that sort of response may take away a lot of possible responses for too long to be viable within the style.


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## APL76 (May 2, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Do you imply that head leaning is against the WC principle? I don't like the idea that if I integrate something into my WC, my WC is no longer pure.
> 
> The term pure is the opposite of the term MMA.


Depends on a) the type of Wing Chun you do, and b) how advanced you are at it. Head movement, slipping punches and so on is all a part of Sum Nung wing chun; but you only get it when you are ready, before that you are told not to do it. And in terms of structure, structure is nothing without movement, and often times it's when the movement stops that is the important part.


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## SuperSnakeCrane87 (May 2, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Striking takes structure though. And you can combine that and head movement.


For sure you can break structure and unbalance an opponent through striking.

I was just saying if you start using boxing footwork and body movement, some of the Wing Chun techniques/strategies go offline because you are structurally compromising yourself.  
I kind of view it like over clocking a pc


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 2, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Yea. And from those points, you completely rule out some principles for yourself. If (and I don’t know if this is true) WC is analogous to the aiki structure portions of NGA, using that sort of response may take away a lot of possible responses for too long to be viable within the style.


The foot sweep is a good example. When you apply a left foot sweep, your upper body rotate to your left while your lower body rotate to your right. 

We should not just look at body structure from a striker point of view. We should also look at it from a wrestler point of view.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 2, 2022)

SuperSnakeCrane87 said:


> if you start using boxing footwork and body movement, some of the Wing Chun techniques/strategies go offline because you are structurally compromising yourself.


How does WC foot sweep any different from the general foot sweep guideline (upperbody twist into one direction while lower body twist into the opposite direction)?


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## Oily Dragon (May 2, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Yikes! They will be coming to get you for your nutshell! Angry mob of WC proponents with pitchforks!


Basically.


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## SifuBoza (Sep 9, 2022)

geezer said:


> According to a friend of mine (who is not a Wing Chun practitioner) the biggest problem that he sees in WC sparring on (heaven help us) _YouTube_, is a lack of real punching power. Sure, he says, "one-inch punch" demos and all that are fine and dandy, but if you can't land a _really heavy punch_ in actual sparring, your opponent will quickly realize that you can't hurt him and tear you apart.
> 
> This guy also points out all the usual complaints about "lack of mobility", "lack of head movement" and lack of "regular sparring against resistant opponents" from other systems ...systems that do train with good resistance. But whatever the reason, he feels that this lack of punching power dooms most WC fighters to failure.
> 
> ...


Only in level 1 you hit with fist and learn wing  chun direct punches..only in level 1. Pros are using open hands and other attacks..direct hits are only for school level 1 training 😁


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## geezer (Sep 9, 2022)

SifuBoza said:


> Only in level 1 you hit with fist and learn wing  chun direct punches..only in level 1. Pros are using open hands and other attacks..direct hits are only for school level 1 training 😁


So you are saying that WC strikes need to be delivered with an open hand to be powerful?

This seems counterintuitive to me. If you can generate good power, shouldn't you be able to use it with a fist, open-hand, or whatever tool/configuration you chose to strike with?

Also, you say _"...direct hits are only for school level 1 training". _ Whether you use a fist or palm aren't you still striking _"directly"_ ...as opposed to "indirectly" perhaps? I have no idea what you mean by that! Maybe you can clarify a bit.


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## wckf92 (Sep 9, 2022)

SifuBoza said:


> Only in level 1 you hit with fist and learn wing  chun direct punches..only in level 1. Pros are using open hands and other attacks..direct hits are only for school level 1 training 😁



You mention "level 1" three times. What is level 1?


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## geezer (Sep 9, 2022)

wckf92 said:


> You mention "level 1" three times. What is level 1?


I think he means to say "low level" but it appears that English is not his first language. His conclusion is ironic since many would hold the opposite point of view.


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## Oily Dragon (Sep 9, 2022)

SifuBoza said:


> Only in level 1 you hit with fist and learn wing  chun direct punches..only in level 1. Pros are using open hands and other attacks..direct hits are only for school level 1 training 😁


If you're trying to say that chain punching someone is low level compared to dominating someone with your whole body, or the planet Earth, or a single finger, using the infinite combinations of Dragon, Snake, and Crane, think I agree.

One of my favorite Shaolin techniques is Shuka (Phoenix Eye Fist).  Sure you can punch with it, if you use it in grappling it's torture.

Level 3 is tickling your friends with it.  Don't attempt level 3 without proper training from an experienced instructor, you might lose a friend here or there.


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## Oily Dragon (Sep 9, 2022)

geezer said:


> I think he means to say "low level" but it appears that English is not his first language. His conclusion is ironic since many would hold the opposite point of view.


I think he's trying to say that punching is a low level skill.  The part about open hands was kind of true.  There are a lot in the WC crowd that seem obsessed with closed fist punches (usually while defeating boxing in a video).

Punching is such a small part of Wing Chun.  Crane style?  That's the advanced stuff, and a lot of it is evasion/defense.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 9, 2022)

geezer said:


> So you are saying that WC strikes need to be delivered with an open hand to be powerful?
> 
> This seems counterintuitive to me. If you can generate good power, shouldn't you be able to use it with a fist, open-hand, or whatever tool/configuration you chose to strike with?
> 
> Also, you say _"...direct hits are only for school level 1 training". _ Whether you use a fist or palm aren't you still striking _"directly"_ ...as opposed to "indirectly" perhaps? I have no idea what you mean by that! Maybe you can clarify a bit.


Aren't paak sau, jik jeung, wan jeung, huen sau and dai jeung all basically palm strikes


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## SifuBoza (Sep 10, 2022)

geezer said:


> So you are saying that WC strikes need to be delivered with an open hand to be powerful?
> 
> This seems counterintuitive to me. If you can generate good power, shouldn't you be able to use it with a fist, open-hand, or whatever tool/configuration you chose to strike with?
> 
> Also, you say _"...direct hits are only for school level 1 training". _ Whether you use a fist or palm aren't you still striking _"directly"_ ...as opposed to "indirectly" perhaps? I have no idea what you mean by that! Maybe you can clarify a bit.


I mean direct chain fist punching.


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## SifuBoza (Sep 10, 2022)

wckf92 said:


> You mention "level 1" three times. What is level 1?


Level is direct fist punch and direct leg kick


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## SifuBoza (Sep 10, 2022)

geezer said:


> I think he means to say "low level" but it appears that English is not his first language. His conclusion is ironic since many would hold the opposite point of view.


Yeah my english not that good sry..


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## geezer (Sep 11, 2022)

SifuBoza said:


> Yeah my english not that good sry..


No worries. ...by the way, what is your native tongue?


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## geezer (Sep 11, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> Aren't paak sau, jik jeung, wan jeung, huen sau and dai jeung all basically palm strikes


Not _huen sau_. That's "circling hand" and is most often used as a way to snake around your opponent's arms, or occasionally to slip out of a wrist grab., etc.

_Pak sau_ is a slapping check directed at "bridge arms" rather than a damaging palm-strike to the head or body. Yeah it can sting like hell when done well, but it's function is not to hurt but to check, deflect an incoming arm, or to remove it from centerline to "free the way" for your strike.


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## geezer (Sep 11, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> I think he's trying to say that punching is a low level skill.  The part about open hands was kind of true.  There are a lot in the WC crowd that seem obsessed with closed fist punches (usually while defeating boxing in a video).
> 
> Punching is such a small part of Wing Chun.  Crane style?  That's the advanced stuff, and a lot of it is evasion/defense.


Many would disagree with you. 

Some feel that it is a higher level skill, and definitely more practical, to learn how to accomplish the kind of control developed with open hand work while _maintaining a closed fist _construction. Alan Orr is one who espouses this POV. It's an interesting idea that challenges the traditional perspective.

This is really just a more extreme version of the more widely held view among WC practitioners is that _less is more_. According to this perspective, WC is made stronger and more effective by eliminating the "fancier" moves found in ancestral forms ...including Shaolin and crane movements in favor of specializing in more high percentage movements suited to Wing Chun's preferred close fighting strategy.


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## Oily Dragon (Sep 12, 2022)

geezer said:


> Many would disagree with you.
> 
> Some feel that it is a higher level skill, and definitely more practical, to learn how to accomplish the kind of control developed with open hand work while _maintaining a closed fist _construction. Alan Orr is one who espouses this POV. It's an interesting idea that challenges the traditional perspective.
> 
> This is really just a more extreme version of the more widely held view among WC practitioners is that _less is more_. According to this perspective, WC is made stronger and more effective by eliminating the "fancier" moves found in ancestral forms ...including Shaolin and crane movements in favor of specializing in more high percentage movements suited to Wing Chun's preferred close fighting strategy.


I agree.  Most of them are errant.

Imagine defending a takedown as "fancy"?  Talk about extreme.


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## drop bear (Sep 12, 2022)

geezer said:


> Many would disagree with you.
> 
> Some feel that it is a higher level skill, and definitely more practical, to learn how to accomplish the kind of control developed with open hand work while _maintaining a closed fist _construction. Alan Orr is one who espouses this POV. It's an interesting idea that challenges the traditional perspective.
> 
> This is really just a more extreme version of the more widely held view among WC practitioners is that _less is more_. According to this perspective, WC is made stronger and more effective by eliminating the "fancier" moves found in ancestral forms ...including Shaolin and crane movements in favor of specializing in more high percentage movements suited to Wing Chun's preferred close fighting strategy.



I have never seen good timing trained in to chain punching. Not to the same depth as a boxing jab. For example. 

So I can understand why people would be trying to do every other thing to land strikes.


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## Oily Dragon (Sep 12, 2022)

drop bear said:


> I have never seen good timing trained in to chain punching. Not to the same depth as a boxing jab. For example.
> 
> So I can understand why people would be trying to do every other thing to land strikes.


The closest boxing analogy to chain punching is the speed bag technique.

Which is great for developing speed but not for knockout blows for sure.

The only effective fist fighting like that I've ever seen was in Looney Tunes, Tom and Jerry, and maybe the Three Stooges.


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## geezer (Sep 12, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> I agree.  Most of them are errant.
> 
> Imagine defending a takedown as "fancy"?  Talk about extreme.


I _can't_ imagine that. 

For takedown defense, I imagine a sprawl, cross-face, take the back... Not fancy, just rudimentary wrestling  ...and not what you think of when you think of Shaolin either. To me the term Shaolin conjures up images of elaborate movements and endless long forms done in silk pajamas ...the inspiration for modern performance wu-shu.

Now I know there's much more to Shaolin than that. But it _is_ elaborate and complex. I prefer simple and direct.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 12, 2022)

drop bear said:


> I have never seen good timing trained in to chain punching. Not to the same depth as a boxing jab. For example.


What do you think about chain hook punches? Will that be more powerful than jab-cross chain punches?

Right hook, left hook, righ hook, left hook, ...


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## geezer (Sep 12, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> The closest boxing analogy to chain punching is the speed bag technique.


That sounds about right. 

Sometimes it works well in short 2-3 punch flurries. Somewhere I read something from a WC branch other than my own where their sifu talked about the real chain punching, at the higher level, _not _being about an endless flurry of straight punches, but rather practice in linking varied strikes in rapid succession. 

Basically, continuous, linked combinations that might come in straight, angled, hooking, high, low, and so on. 

Ya know, that's not a bad way of approaching it.


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## geezer (Sep 12, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> The only effective fist fighting like that I've ever seen was in Looney Tunes, Tom and Jerry, and maybe the Three Stooges.


Three Stooges? 

Well, that all depends on which _lineage _you come from. It's pretty well established that the _Moe lineage_ was the most fighting oriented.


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## geezer (Sep 12, 2022)

drop bear said:


> I have never seen good timing trained in to *chain punching*. Not to the same depth as a *boxing jab.* For example.


Apples and oranges. 

A jab is shot out from a distance. Chain punching starts at close range, often after bridge contact is made. That's why WC works so much on _chi-sau_. At close range that helps teach how cross the bridge and "free the way" to attack. Chain punching is the follow up.

At least that's how it's supposed to work.


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## Oily Dragon (Sep 12, 2022)

geezer said:


> I _can't_ imagine that.
> 
> For takedown defense, I imagine a sprawl, cross-face, take the back... Not fancy, just rudimentary wrestling  ...and not what you think of when you think of Shaolin either. To me the term Shaolin conjures up images of elaborate movements and endless long forms done in silk pajamas ...the inspiration for modern performance wu-shu.
> 
> Now I know there's much more to Shaolin than that. But it _is_ elaborate and complex. I prefer simple and direct.


Basically, except for the silk part.  The wealth of Shaolin is immaterial.


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## isshinryuronin (Sep 13, 2022)

geezer said:


> To me the term Shaolin conjures up images of elaborate movements and endless long forms





geezer said:


> WC is made stronger and more effective by eliminating the "fancier" moves found in ancestral forms ...including Shaolin and crane movements


Not having learned at the Shaolin Temple (although I was once on the set for the original TV show_ Kung Fu)_ my study of TMA indicates that the old ("ancestral") Shaolin style was more direct and "hard" than what we commonly see today. The "elaborate/fancier" moves you refer to were, I think, developed_ post-ancestral_ a few centuries later.

A number of Chinese styles heavily embraced organized Taoist philosophy (1600's?) leading to a much softer version of Kung Fu to fit the concepts of yielding, void and harmony.  Also, the adoption of animal styles led to interjecting their movements into the martial art.  They may have been over-enthusiastic in this practice, placing too much emphasis on the particular animal's fighting movements at the expense of human fighting effectiveness. This is conjecture but seems logical to me.  We all tend to take on additional trappings over time and become unnecessarily complex. 

Due to the above factors some "eliminating" was probably a good idea.  In an effort to fit some conceptual mold, various degrees of practicality were lost.  Shorter more direct moves eventually came back in various CMA (in some styles, they likely never left) and this trend continued when brought to Okinawa, becoming Karate.

The above is only theory based on my limited scholarship on the subject.


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## drop bear (Sep 13, 2022)

geezer said:


> Apples and oranges.
> 
> A jab is shot out from a distance. Chain punching starts at close range, often after bridge contact is made. That's why WC works so much on _chi-sau_. At close range that helps teach how cross the bridge and "free the way" to attack. Chain punching is the follow up.
> 
> At least that's how it's supposed to work.


Chain punching is similar in application to a lead cross or a short cross. Comes through the middle.


If it is treated as an afterthought. It is doing the technique a disservice.

You can literally only benefit by having good entries and exits attached to your chain punching.


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## SifuBoza (Sep 13, 2022)

geezer said:


> No worries. ...by the way, what is your native tongue?


I am from Serbia. And you ?


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## Callen (Sep 13, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Punching is such a small part of Wing Chun.


I think it depends on how you look at it. Many will tell you that the vertical punch is the cornerstone to Wing Chun mechanics. Remove the fist and replace it with any shape, (palm, taan, fuk, jam, lap, etc...) and you still have all the same concepts, mechanics and structure of the system at work.



Oily Dragon said:


> Crane style? That's the advanced stuff, and a lot of it is evasion/defense.


The more Wing Chun is understood and trained as a unified gong fu system, the less need there is to attempt to separate it into prioritized parts. That’s why a lot of folks believe that there is no “advanced” Wing Chun, there’s only the greater ability to implement the skills, concepts and structure of the whole system into a single reaction.

I agree that Crane, as it's own style, is very cool though...


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## Oily Dragon (Sep 13, 2022)

Callen said:


> I think it depends on how you look at it. Many will tell you that the vertical punch is the cornerstone to Wing Chun mechanics. Remove the fist and replace it with any shape, (palm, taan, fuk, jam, lap, etc...) and you still have all the same concepts, mechanics and structure of the system at work.
> 
> 
> The more Wing Chun is understood and trained as a unified gong fu system, the less need there is to attempt to separate it into prioritized parts. That’s why a lot of folks believe that there is no “advanced” Wing Chun, there’s only the greater ability to implement the skills, concepts and structure of the whole system into a single reaction.
> ...


Pretty much.  Wing Chun is a distillation of earlier styles, somebody did the work.  But we are stuck in a world where a lot of Wing Chun got lost along the way.  I often say this here (sometimes upsetting people) but the skill gap in Wing Chun vs other CMA is kind of obvious, and it shows up in Sanshou. I'd like more Wing Chun in Sanshou, I think that would really improve the quality.

Somebody asked me to show him a kung fu technique you can use in MMA.  So I raised my left knee like to check a kick, and then threw a straight kick right my right.

Dude says na, that's Muay Thai bro.  But I hadn't trained Muay Thai yet back then.  Both were southern Crane, highly effective.

When I went through Wing Chun, the animal influences kind of clicked because I'd seen them before.  Also, how different CMA systems organize material.  So much material is shared and has the same name and structure, but there are little differences you wouldn't notice without a knowledgeable teacher (Hung Kuen's stances have very specific instructions for training vs sparring).

And then you have things like empty legged stances, there are soo many different ones but they all do the same basic thing (weight distro).

This is why I always advocate Wing Chun people to not consider themselves that. I'm not a Xing Yi, Tai Chi, Wing Chun, Hung Ga guy.

Just Kung Fu guy is fine. And when people ask which kind, I say yes.


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## Callen (Sep 13, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> This is why I always advocate Wing Chun people to not consider themselves that. I'm not a Xing Yi, Tai Chi, Wing Chun, Hung Ga guy.


I think this is an important takeaway. It's all gong fu.


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## geezer (Sep 13, 2022)

SifuBoza said:


> I am from Serbia. And you ?


I'm from Arizona in the southwest of the USA. I don't know much about Serbia, but I live in Suburbia, if that helps. 

Oh, and my Wing Chun training partner is originally from Croatia which is next door to you.


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## Oily Dragon (Sep 13, 2022)

Callen said:


> I think this is an important takeaway. It's all gong fu


And to be perfectly clear, this whole issue isn't just limited to Wing Chun.  People in all the styles often bog themselves down with technical jargon, history, etc.  And all that stuff is really cool but...

It's not training.  People back in the Ming Dynasty didn't have any of that, it was just hard work that made people sharp, strong and healthy.  I'm positive Wing Chun forms training alone has some health benefits (at least you're standing!), but it's a far cry from what people like Alan Orr do (apply it) or the few remaining masters have done throughout their journey.

Sifu Kwok!!  74 years old, look at this.  Cynthia Rothrock personally recorded this.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 13, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> And to be perfectly clear, this whole issue isn't just limited to Wing Chun.  People in all the styles often bog themselves down with technical jargon, history, etc.  And all that stuff is really cool but...
> 
> It's not training.  People back in the Ming Dynasty didn't have any of that, it was just hard work that made people sharp, strong and healthy.  I'm positive Wing Chun forms training alone has some health benefits (at least you're standing!), but it's a far cry from what people like Alan Orr do (apply it) or the few remaining masters have done throughout their journey.
> 
> Sifu Kwok!!  74 years old, look at this.  Cynthia Rothrock personally recorded this.


Why do people fail to capture the footwork?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 13, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Why do people fail to capture the footwork?


Do people realize that if you move around your opponent in circle, you will give him less chance to hit you.

To train circular walking is important.


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## SifuBoza (Sep 14, 2022)

geezer said:


> I'm from Arizona in the southwest of the USA. I don't know much about Serbia, but I live in Suburbia, if that helps.
> 
> Oh, and my Wing Chun training partner is originally from Croatia which is next door to you.


Ohhh cool. What is your wing chun level ? I can train you, your training partner can understand me..we speak same language 😁


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## Oily Dragon (Sep 14, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Why do people fail to capture the footwork?


Probably for the same reason Wing Chun students often try to convince me YGKYM is a fighting stance, not realizing it's the internal Crane style adduction training stance for like, a dozen southern CMA, not to mention the Shaolin Iron Wire itself (which actually uses several different versions of it, narrow, wide, stepping into and out of it from different directions).

One thing I've noticed about a lot of Wing Chun people who do videos on Youtube and stuff...they just don't move.  They stand in one place and try to demo all sorts of things.   As if fighting happens in a little box.  I saw a video one time called FOOM or something that had laughing so hard, this guy was trying to show that Wing Chun is FOOM FOOM FOOM and boom you're roadkill. 

Even Xing Yi, which has a definite focus on fencing-style centerline fighting, still moves all over the place even in training and sparring.  I think this might be why people who *do *train both Wing Chun and in an open full contact environment, do just fine.  I go to the tourneys, but I rarely see this type of student in this particular art.  Sad sanshou panda.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 14, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Probably for the same reason Wing Chun students often try to convince me YGKYM is a fighting stance,


To fight on a boat, YGKYM is a good stance. To fight on the dry land, it's not. This is why the YGKYM has never been used in the north China.






Old saying said, "You may not find any opening to attack. As long as you keep moving, soon or later you will find some opening to attack".


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## Oily Dragon (Sep 14, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> To fight on a boat, YGKYM is a good stance. To fight on the dry land, it's not. This is why the YGKYM has never been used in the north China.
> 
> View attachment 28880
> 
> Old saying said, "You may not find any opening to attack. As long as you keep moving, soon or later you will find some opening to attack".


If you're saying adduction helps for fighting on boats, sure.  Not that many people do that these days.

But given the range of YGKYM in the southern styles, it's kind of clear that like a lot of the stances, there are training versions for flexibility and rooting, and there are different versions for live combat.

I don't think it's possibly to really say it was never used in northern China.  It's a pretty universal concept, adduction.  It's used heavily in grappling arts (squeezing with the upper legs).  Also horse riding, and sex.

Here's a really creepy Facebook video I found that describes it.









						Hip Adduction with Internal Rotation | Exercise for Building Hip Adductor Strength and Preventing Injury  Hip Adduction with Internal Rotation (Stability ball)  The hip adductors are the... | By Muscle and Motion | Facebook
					

29 万 views, 2,619 likes, 95 loves, 59 comments, 1,416 shares, Facebook Watch Videos from Muscle and Motion: Exercise for Building Hip Adductor Strength and Preventing Injury  Hip Adduction with...




					fb.watch


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## geezer (Sep 14, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> To fight on a boat, YGKYM is a good stance. To fight on the dry land, it's not. This is why the YGKYM has never been used in the north China.


For once I'm going to have to side with _Oily _on this one. Narrow stances similar to Wing Chun are widely used in Southern short-bridge systems and they are effective in striking arts. That they were developed specifically for fighting on boats is a romantic notion, nothing more. 

Besides if you were really fighting on a tippy little boat, wouldn't you drop your center of gravity and hunker down in a really deep horse stance? I would!


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## Oily Dragon (Sep 14, 2022)

geezer said:


> For once I'm going to have to side with _Oily _on this one. Narrow stances similar to Wing Chun are widely used in Southern short-bridge systems and they are effective in striking arts. That they were developed specifically for fighting on boats is a romantic notion, nothing more.
> 
> Besides if you were really fighting on a tippy little boat, wouldn't you drop your center of gravity and hunker down in a really deep horse stance? I would!


I'm conflicted.  I've actually trained on boats.  It really depends on the craft.

I think Xing Yi stances would work well on a small boat, too.  Or a surfboard.


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## geezer (Sep 15, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> I'm conflicted.  I've actually trained on boats.  It really depends on the craft.
> 
> I think Xing Yi stances would work well on a small boat, too.  Or a surfboard.


That would make a fun video!

...reminds me of my college days in the 70's, jousting on skateboards with brooms in the dorm hallways. The drinking age was 19 then, so beer was definitely involved.


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## obi_juan_salami (Sep 15, 2022)

SifuBoza said:


> I am from Serbia. And you ?


di treniraš u srbiji?


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## SifuBoza (Sep 16, 2022)

obi_juan_salami said:


> di treniraš u srbiji?


U Novom Sadu. Znas nekog iz Srbije ?


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## Jimmythebull (Sep 16, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Do people realize that if you move around your opponent in circle, you will give him less chance to hit you.
> 
> To train circular walking is important.


I hope this is a joke.


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## obi_juan_salami (Sep 16, 2022)

SifuBoza said:


> U Novom Sadu. Znas nekog iz Srbije ?


kako se škola zove? 

ne., ja sam Hrvat a govorim i engleski


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## SifuBoza (Sep 16, 2022)

obi_juan_salami said:


> kako se škola zove?
> 
> ne., ja sam Hrvat a govorim i engleski


Nema skole, vezbam "iza zatvorenih vrata"...ako ste zainteresovani mozemo vezbati. Koji wing chun vi vezbate ?


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## obi_juan_salami (Sep 16, 2022)

SifuBoza said:


> Nema skole, vezbam "iza zatvorenih vrata"...ako ste zainteresovani mozemo vezbati. Koji wing chun vi vezbate ?


tako je najbolje ako nađeš pravog majstora. kako se zove? ili koja 'linija'?

živim puno daleko od vas u australiji žalostno

mi treniramo guagzhou wing chun 'isto iza zatvorena vrata'


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## SifuBoza (Sep 16, 2022)

obi_juan_salami said:


> tako je najbolje ako nađeš pravog majstora. kako se zove? ili koja 'linija'?
> 
> živim puno daleko od vas u australiji žalostno
> 
> mi treniramo guagzhou wing chun 'isto iza zatvorena vrata'


Zove se izvorni yong chun(jong cuen na nasem jeziku). Moj ucitelj je clan FIOGE.

Jeste ja sam imao srece da naidjem na pravog grandmajstora.

Mucim muku da nadjem studente za vezbanje 😅. Znam za guangzou wing chun


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## obi_juan_salami (Sep 16, 2022)

SifuBoza said:


> Zove se izvorni yong chun(jong cuen na nasem jeziku). Moj ucitelj je clan FIOGE.
> 
> Jeste ja sam imao srece da naidjem na pravog grandmajstora.
> 
> Mucim muku da nadjem studente za vezbanje 😅. Znam za guangzou wing chun


izvorni? je li vrsta yip man jong cuen? 

nije lako naći dobro majstora niti studenta !


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## SifuBoza (Sep 16, 2022)

obi_juan_salami said:


> izvorni? je li vrsta yip man jong cuen?
> 
> nije lako naći dobro majstora niti studenta !


Da, izvorni koji nije bas za siru javnost. Yip man je znao izvorni ali naravno nije ga pokazivao. Nazalost nije lako jer ljudi slabo hoce da vezbaju ispocetka, svi bi odmah nesto prakticno a nece da vezbaju forme i ostalo. 

Mnogi su "obrukali" wing chun preko interneta, pa i zbog toga nece ljudi da vezbaju..kazu da je wing chun los ali nije wing chun los nego onaj koji ga vezba.


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 16, 2022)

Attention users: per the MartialTalk terms of service, postings need to be in English. If you want to carry on a conversation in another language, please take it to private message.


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## SifuBoza (Sep 16, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Attention users: per the MartialTalk terms of service, postings need to be in English. If you want to carry on a conversation in another language, please take it to private message.


Sorry.


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 16, 2022)

SifuBoza said:


> Sorry.


No problem. Everyone has to agree to the terms of service when they sign up, but most people don't remember all the rules automatically without the occasional reminder.


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## Oily Dragon (Sep 16, 2022)

SifuBoza said:


> Da, izvorni koji nije bas za siru javnost. Yip man je znao izvorni ali naravno nije ga pokazivao. Nazalost nije lako jer ljudi slabo hoce da vezbaju ispocetka, svi bi odmah nesto prakticno a nece da vezbaju forme i ostalo.
> 
> Mnogi su "obrukali" wing chun preko interneta, pa i zbog toga nece ljudi da vezbaju..kazu da je wing chun los ali nije wing chun los nego onaj koji ga vezba.


I agree, and a lot of people who train Wing Chun don't know this about it's nature, usually because they only train under one teacher or one branch.  People who study many CMA, or even just different WC schools, can see where WC falls on a map, good bad ugly.  I love Wing Chun.  I could do without its lineage warriors who don't actually sanda.

Think about it this way, Wing Chun has only had a handful of modern progenitors we can point out and say "wow".  Ip Man wasn't one of those, he was old and frail by the time we get to see video of him.  And then Bruce Lee, when we meet him, had already sampled that lineage and come away seeking more.

Though Bruce never gave up on it.  In a way he found exactly what Ip Man had not been able to teach him, but he was still using Ip Man's philosophy.  Sometimes that's the most important part.  Forget techniques, there's that old Xing Yi saying from somewhere...techniques cannot defeat concepts...  Whatever concepts Bruce learned from Ip Man, they were probably a lot more important than Siu Lim.


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