# A Chen (or possibly a Hunyuan) Question



## Xue Sheng (May 17, 2013)

There was a Chen seminar I was considering going to but I injured my knee (again :disgust so I cannot make it. I was curious as to what it was about.

The person holding the seminar is Tung, Kuan Yen and he learned Xinjia from Feng Zhiqiang

What he was teaching was Taiji Essentials: 5 Steps, 8 Techniques, 5 Elements

I have never heard the 5 Steps, 8 Techniques, 5 Elements applied to Chen Taiji (or Hunyuan)?

 Can anyone tell me what that is about or point me to a resource to study?


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## Xue Sheng (May 17, 2013)

Well.....I'm an idiot :duh: ...I just figured this out..... using that new fangled math stuff.....

This is the Chen version of the Yang 13 postures....some days I guess I'm just slow


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## mograph (May 17, 2013)

Well, that was a short thread. 

Um ....

Hey, here's a question! Would there be any merit in teaching only the thirteen postures (Chen or Yang) nowadays? Would that be complete enough to be considered proper taijiquan if it still adhered to the principles?


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## Xue Sheng (May 17, 2013)

mograph said:


> Well, that was a short thread.
> 
> Um ....
> 
> Hey, here's a question! Would there be any merit in teaching only the thirteen postures (Chen or Yang) nowadays? Would that be complete enough to be considered proper taijiquan if it still adhered to the principles?



If you know and understand the 13 postures you know how to fight but it is not taijiquan, but the 13 postures are basics of taijiquan and if you train Yang style they are virtually all in the long formY

Basically they need to be done correctly because they are part of taijiquan but by themselves they are not taijiquan


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## mograph (May 18, 2013)

Thanks. So, would you say that Chen old frame first sequence would have been the first post-thirteen postures form that could be called taijiquan?


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## Xue Sheng (May 18, 2013)

mograph said:


> Thanks. So, would you say that Chen old frame first sequence would have been the first post-thirteen postures form that could be called taijiquan?



I honestly don&#8217;t know and I don&#8217;t know who could answer that with 100% certainty.

There are some in Chen that say Chen does not have the 13 postures that is a Yang thing. And then there are those in Chen that teach them. Now it could be that they are simply saying there is nothing in Chen called the 13 postures but there are the 5 Steps, 8 Techniques and 5 Elements, which is possible since there was, at one time, definite push to have a separation between the styles from both families. Or it could be they did not separate them from the form, or it could be lineage.

But if you look at what I have seen billed as the 13 postures of Chen style, like Yang, almost all of them are in Laojia Yilu (almost all in the Yang long form). My Yang sifu acknowledges their existence, points them out in the long form, but does not teach them separately but I think (and I am not 100% sure of this either) some do (or did) teach them separately.

My speculation on the origin of taijiquan, and it is just a speculation, is that somewhere someone combined Shaolin Paoqui with an older Qigong that was called Taiji Tao Yin (or whatever qigong was called then) with something that may or may not have come from a Taoist that was similar to the 13 postures but there were likely more postures (There has been some speculation by Chinese historians that there was something similar but it was 28 or 56 or some number bigger than 13) now throw in whatever the Chen family was practicing at the time (and that might be where the Paoqui comes in, or it might not be) and a dash of Taoist philosophy (I-Ching, but that might have already been there) and voila you have Chen Taijiquan&#8230;or whatever they called it, as late as Chen Fake he was not categorizing it as Taiji he was calling it Chen family martial art. But then Yang Luchan did not call it Taijiquan either. That categorization (name) came from , if my memory is working this morning, Wu Quanyou (1834&#8211;1902), or his son Wu Chien-ch'uan (1870&#8211;1942) who where students of Yang Luchan, or Yang Banhou (depending on whose lineage story you want to believe)

One last thing and I stop rambling. There has also been some conversation about the original Chen family form, from Chen Wangting, of Taijiquan not being Loajia Yilu and Laojia Erlu but a longer form that was later split and that is where Loajia Yilu and Erlu come from. 

So ultimately, like most things Taijiquan history, the answer is a resounding&#8230;.aaaaa&#8230;maybe


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