# Muk Yan Jong Form



## Transk53 (Dec 31, 2014)

Hey all, Had a conversation with a Wing Chunner that I know. It regarded the use of the wooden dummy, or as you peeps would say Muk Yan Jong. For a start he said it was the fifth form, I understand to be the fourth. Anyway whatever the case, do you have to complete the three empty hands before you start using a dummy? This I assume would what would be the class curriculum. This Wing Chunner says that he has bought a dummy with which to practice. 

Now I cannot verify or debunk his claims that he has gone beyond the first forms, I don’t want to be disbelieving, but if you need what comes before, would there be any point in getting a dummy. Can you practice effectively without arriving at the time of going to Muk Yan Jong? May seem a silly question, but I was thinking of the conditioning that a person, or myself, that would come from the wood (or hard plastic). I imagine it would be a little painful at first. In addition to this, I am thinking that it would be a few years before you got anywhere near one. Thoughts?


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## Reeksta (Dec 31, 2014)

I can only speak of my limited experience within my own lineage, but - although you are correct that the dummy form is learned after the empty hand forms - our sifu gets us all to use the mook for certain drills every now and again. If there are an odd number of people in class and someone is left without a partner they will often be told to use the mook too.
To answer your question then, for someone from our school you could probably wring some utility from having your own mook before learning the form but it would be very limited. As far as conditioning goes, we are told that this isn't the dummy's purpose and are discouraged from striking it with any great amount of force.


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## Transk53 (Dec 31, 2014)

Reeksta said:


> I can only speak of my limited experience within my own lineage, but - although you are correct that the dummy form is learned after the empty hand forms - our sifu gets us all to use the mook for certain drills every now and again. If there are an odd number of people in class and someone is left without a partner they will often be told to use the mook too.
> To answer your question then, for someone from our school you could probably wring some utility from having your own mook before learning the form but it would be very limited. As far as conditioning goes, we are told that this isn't the dummy's purpose and are discouraged from striking it with any great amount of force.



Do you have the full size ones with the elephant trunk? (not sure what that is called officially) It is difficult for to gauge that one, I have never seen any practitioner use one. Thought I was going to see the apparatus, in this case a half sized one on a wall, at the first JKD school. Transpired to be one of those pretty web page pictures. So basically all the talk I have heard from the Wing Chunner, may well be true, but still a little pointless to train.


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## Reeksta (Dec 31, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> Do you have the full size ones with the elephant trunk? (not sure what that is called officially) It is difficult for to gauge that one, I have never seen any practitioner use one. Thought I was going to see the apparatus, in this case a half sized one on a wall, at the first JKD school. Transpired to be one of those pretty web page pictures. So basically all the talk I have heard from the Wing Chunner, may well be true, but still a little pointless to train.


Yeah the one at our school is a full size with a leg (I don't know what the proper name is either). From what I see of the more advanced students, the leg seems pretty important for using the mook as far as wing chun goes


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## Transk53 (Dec 31, 2014)

Reeksta said:


> Yeah the one at our school is a full size with a leg (I don't know what the proper name is either). From what I see of the more advanced students, the leg seems pretty important for using the mook as far as wing chun goes



From what I can imagine, it would for the front kicks. Supposed to simulate trapping? I think.


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## Reeksta (Dec 31, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> From what I can imagine, it would for the front kicks. Supposed to simulate trapping? I think.


Yeah that's my understanding too


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## Danny T (Dec 31, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> Hey all, Had a conversation with a Wing Chunner that I know. It regarded the use of the wooden dummy, or as you peeps would say Muk Yan Jong. For a start he said it was the fifth form, I understand to be the fourth. Anyway whatever the case, do you have to complete the three empty hands before you start using a dummy? This I assume would what would be the class curriculum. This Wing Chunner says that he has bought a dummy with which to practice.
> 
> Now I cannot verify or debunk his claims that he has gone beyond the first forms, I don’t want to be disbelieving, but if you need what comes before, would there be any point in getting a dummy. Can you practice effectively without arriving at the time of going to Muk Yan Jong? May seem a silly question, but I was thinking of the conditioning that a person, or myself, that would come from the wood (or hard plastic). I imagine it would be a little painful at first. In addition to this, I am thinking that it would be a few years before you got anywhere near one. Thoughts?


I use the jong early for a lot of drills with my students. They start learning the first half of the form while learning Chum Kiu.
In our training the jong isn't used for tempering (though it can be) it is for refining and fine tuning structure, positioning, and proper presentation. Because of this it is important the jong is sized for the individual. The height, the angle of the arms, the holes are square with movement in them, the taper of the arms are all for fine tuning. The arms and legs are presented into the jong to positioning the arms within the hole into the upper outer corner or inner corner base upon what the pressure is or even to move from the upper outer to the upper inner to the lower inner is some actions. It is about position, control and applying the proper pressure (energy) in the proper place. It isn't about striking the arms or legs as hard as you can.


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## Transk53 (Dec 31, 2014)

Danny T said:


> I use the jong early for a lot of drills with my students. They start learning the first half of the form while learning Chum Kiu.
> In our training the jong isn't used for tempering (though it can be) it is for refining and fine tuning structure, positioning, and proper presentation. Because of this it is important the jong is sized for the individual. The height, the angle of the arms, the holes are square with movement in them, the taper of the arms are all for fine tuning. The arms and legs are presented into the jong to positioning the arms within the hole into the upper outer corner or inner corner base upon what the pressure is or even to move from the upper outer to the upper inner to the lower inner is some actions. It is about position, control and applying the proper pressure (energy) in the proper place. It isn't about striking the arms or legs as hard as you can.



Think you should change your username to "Guru" Okay, that clears it up for me. Thanks


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## Marnetmar (Dec 31, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> Can you practice effectively without arriving at the time of going to Muk Yan Jong? May seem a silly question, but I was thinking of the conditioning that a person, or myself, that would come from the wood (or hard plastic). I imagine it would be a little painful at first. In addition to this, I am thinking that it would be a few years before you got anywhere near one. Thoughts?



You can certainly practice effectively before you start training the dummy. That said however, the dummy is a fundamental building block and IMO somebody who wants to get really good at WC should learn to that level. As for conditioning, the dummy will probably hurt a bit at first and it will naturally condition you, because, you know, you're hitting a hard surface, but that's not the main purpose of the dummy. The real purpose of the dummy is to teach you proper angles and generation of force.

Also, I haven't heard of the dummy ever being the fifth form. Did he say what comes before it?


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## Transk53 (Dec 31, 2014)

Marnetmar said:


> You can certainly practice effectively before you start training the dummy. That said however, the dummy is a fundamental building block and IMO somebody who wants to get really good at WC should learn to that level. As for conditioning, the dummy will probably hurt a bit at first and it will naturally condition you, because, you know, you're hitting a hard surface, but that's not the main purpose of the dummy. The real purpose of the dummy is to teach you proper angles and generation of force.
> 
> Also, I haven't heard of the dummy ever being the fifth form. Did he say what comes before it?



No he didn't. That is the thing though. I obviously don't have the knowledge to contradict him in anyway. We Brits do have a saying though "take what he (she, they) says with a pinch of salt" Basically I am not sure that I would get the answers I seek if you know what I am saying. But yeah, you peeps have been very helpful. 

*The majority of all Wing Chun sects, inside and outside of the Ip Man line, either have one or all of these six Wing Chun forms in their system and it will be called by the same name.*


*Sil Lum Tao (小念頭 Little Idea)*
*Chum Kiu (尋桥 Bridging the Gap)*
*Biu Ji (标指 Thrusting Fingers)*
*Mook Yan Jong (木人樁* *Wooden Dummy)*
*Baat Jam Dao (八斩刀* *Butterfly Swords/Eight Cut Swords)*
*Look Dim Boon Grun (六点半杆* *Dragon Pole/Six and Half Point Pole)*
*These are the six forms you’ll see and learn about in any Ip Man lineage, Wing Chun school around the world.
*

One thing I do for sure, the school I will be attending is the IP Man lineage. So according to the above, it would be the fourth form. How is it with other lineages, the same?


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## yak sao (Dec 31, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> *The majority of all Wing Chun sects, inside and outside of the Ip Man line, either have one or all of these six Wing Chun forms in their system and it will be called by the same name.*
> 
> 
> *Sil Lum Tao (小念頭 Little Idea)*
> ...



Just thinking out loud here, but they may teach the tri- podal dummy (saam sing jong) as a form.
Our lineage teaches it only as a set of training drills but I've heard some call it a form.
Also, fut sao WC has a 4th empty hand set...siu baat gwa I believe.


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## Kwan Sau (Dec 31, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> One thing I do for sure, the school I will be attending is the IP Man lineage. So according to the above, it would be the fourth form. How is it with other lineages, the same?



Don't take a website as gospel for how things are taught and their order in the "IP Man" lineage. That list you posted is not accurate for some YPWC kwoons...


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## Kwan Sau (Dec 31, 2014)

yak sao said:


> Just thinking out loud here, but they may teach the tri- podal dummy (saam sing jong) as a form.
> Our lineage teaches it only as a set of training drills but I've heard some call it a form.
> Also, fut sao WC has a 4th empty hand set...siu baat gwa I believe.



Was thinking the same thing Yak... tripodals; other "kicking forms"; perhaps even other stuff added or passed down inside that particular family may offset the MYJ learning order...


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## Transk53 (Dec 31, 2014)

yak sao said:


> Just thinking out loud here, but they may teach the tri- podal dummy (saam sing jong) as a form.
> Our lineage teaches it only as a set of training drills but I've heard some call it a form.
> Also, fut sao WC has a 4th empty hand set...siu baat gwa I believe.



Right okay. Wing Chun seems so different, but so much the same. Can be very confusing to a novice like me!


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## Transk53 (Dec 31, 2014)

Kwan Sau said:


> Don't take a website as gospel for how things are taught and their order in the "IP Man" lineage. That list you posted is not accurate for some YPWC kwoons...



Yeah no worries, that is why you peeps are so valuable to Martial Talk. Well I think so anyway. I would rather have something debunked around here, than a Youtube Jedi as it were!


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## yak sao (Dec 31, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> Right okay. Wing Chun seems so different, but so much the same. Can be very confusing to a novice like me!



With so many different lineages, it can get a bit confusing. But we're all students...some of us have just been at it a bit longer is all.


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## Vajramusti (Dec 31, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> Hey all, Had a conversation with a Wing Chunner that I know. It regarded the use of the wooden dummy, or as you peeps would say Muk Yan Jong.
> --------------------------------------------------
> FWIW IMO-Working on specific drills after being shown properly is a god thing. But good wing chun training is not a series of techniques. Gradually with minimal local tension shaping the body and the reflexes is an important task.Learning the dummy form and flow is best done after learning the sil lim tao and chumkiu well.
> The jong is an invaluable tool.


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## Transk53 (Dec 31, 2014)

> FWIW IMO-Working on specific drills after being shown properly is a god thing. But good wing chun training is not a series of techniques. Gradually with minimal local tension shaping the body and the reflexes is an important task.Learning the dummy form and flow is best done after learning the sil lim tao and chumkiu well. The jong is an invaluable tool.



Yeah I have realised that myself. I can see how all aspects of the form apply. Like for example that when I first ventured into Wing Chun, the bruises were pretty full on. I was told by a Technician that get used to it in a friendly way. All part of the journey I


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## Transk53 (Dec 31, 2014)

Had to cut and paste. My Nokia is a bit of a mare. The quotation marks are not my touchpad dictionary


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## Marnetmar (Dec 31, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> One thing I do for sure, the school I will be attending is the IP Man lineage. So according to the above, it would be the fourth form. How is it with other lineages, the same?



Basically yes, although I think some schools switch the knives and pole around. Something that's interesting to note though is that in mainland styles the forms will be spelled with different characters. (Siu Nim Tau 小念頭 [Little Idea] is Siu Lim Tao 小練套 [Little Training  Set], Chum Kiu 尋橋 [Seeking the Bridge/Bridging the Gap] is romanized the same but uses the characters 沉橋 [Sinking the Bridge], etc. I think Bat Jam Dao/Eight Slashing knives becomes some crazy **** like Yin and Yang Life Taking Knives or something lol)


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## Transk53 (Dec 31, 2014)

Marnetmar said:


> Basically yes, although I think some schools switch the knives and pole around. Something that's interesting to note though is that in mainland styles the forms will be spelled with different characters. (Siu Nim Tau 小念頭 [Little Idea] is Siu Lim Tao 小練套 [Little Training  Set], Chum Kiu 尋橋 [Seeking the Bridge/Bridging the Gap] is romanized the same but uses the characters 沉橋 [Sinking the Bridge], etc. I think Bat Jam Dao/Eight Slashing knives becomes some crazy **** like Yin and Yang Life Taking Knives or something lol)



Sweet, thankyou  I don't quite understand the bridge in the term. Is this a philosophy like thing. IE, the bridge is the link between conscious and ingrained memory and thought process. Are able to just react and move at the same perceived time. I mean you are fast, I don't need Hollywood for that.


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## Transk53 (Dec 31, 2014)

Oh, I mean all of you in being fast.


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## Marnetmar (Dec 31, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> Sweet, thankyou  I don't quite the bridge in the term. Is this a philosophy like thing. IE, the bridge is the link between conscious and ingrained memory and thought process. Are able to just react and move at the same perceived time. I mean you are fast, I don't need Hollywood for that.



When your arm touches your opponent's arm, you've created a bridge, and from a bridge you can control your opponent. That's what "bridge" in this case refers to.


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## Transk53 (Dec 31, 2014)

Marnetmar said:


> When your arm touches your opponent's arm, you've created a bridge, and from a bridge you can control your opponent. That's what "bridge" in this case refers to.



Right, okay. So a long bridge would be the upper arm, short bridge as in the wrist/forearm?


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## Marnetmar (Dec 31, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> Right, okay. So a long bridge would be the upper arm, short bridge as in the wrist/forearm?



As in where your opponent's arm makes contact with yours? I suppose you could say that, but I like to think of it as the other way around. The bridge becomes shorter the closer you are to the opponent.


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## Transk53 (Dec 31, 2014)

Marnetmar said:


> As in where your opponent's arm makes contact with yours? I suppose you could say that, but I like to think of it as the other way around. The bridge becomes shorter the closer you are to the opponent.



Of course, it would stand to reason with YY. Well from my point of view anyways. Where would the sweet spot be? I mean if in terms of middle, a twist and snap of the elbow would make sense. This being the medium distance?


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## Marnetmar (Dec 31, 2014)

I don't think there's really any place that you could call a "sweet spot" since it all really depends on what your opponent is throwing at you. My general rule is that when you make contact with the arm, step in immediately and attack. Don't try to apply Chi Na until you have the guy in a position where he can't escape or make any cheap shots (I.E you've collapsed both of his arms in)


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## Transk53 (Dec 31, 2014)

Marnetmar said:


> I don't think there's really any place that you could call a "sweet spot" since it all really depends on what your opponent is throwing at you. My general rule is that when you make contact with the arm, step in immediately.



Really, that is interesting. I would be inclined to throw a low kick towards the ankle. But I am thinking you may use an elbow?


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## Marnetmar (Dec 31, 2014)

Nothing is preventing you from stomping on the guy's knee/ankle once you've stepped in, or as you're stepping in.


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## Transk53 (Dec 31, 2014)

Marnetmar said:


> Nothing is preventing you from stomping on the guy's knee/ankle once you've stepped in, or as you're stepping in.



Right. Stepping in for is usually top side. I may have interpreted wrong, and in the context of Wing Chun almost certainly. If I was stepping topside, yeah I can see. But lower down, it would probably be a hook or ankle, hypothetical of course!


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## KPM (Dec 31, 2014)

Some have a dummy form that is a little longer than others.  In most Ip Man lineages the dummy form is taught after Chum Kiu.  Those that have a little longer dummy form will often teach the Biu Gee form after the 1st half of the dummy form and teach the second half of the dummy only after the student has the Biu Gee form.  This is because the 2nd half of the dummy form contains techniques and concepts from the Biu Gee form for those lineages.   In Pin Sun Wing Chun, the dummy is taught right from the beginning.  Each solo set learned has a version that is practiced on the dummy. So from day 1 students do things on the dummy.  Even in Ip Man Wing Chun the dummy has many  good uses right from the beginning. I think the main reasons that many people don't get to touch the dummy until they are more advanced are:

1.  Larger class sizes with limited time.  This doesn't leave much opportunity to work on the dummy except for the advanced students.
2.  A dummy is expensive to buy and not many can make their own so most students don't have one at home to practice on.  In my mind the Wing Chun dummy serves a similar purpose as the Boxing heavy bag.  But if you don't have ready access to one, what are you going to learn?
3.  Even if an instructor is teaching a small group or has multiple dummies available for a larger group, it could be he or she wasn't taught anything on the dummy as a beginner, therefore they don't teach any dummy practice to beginners.  This would be a shame, because the dummy is a great tool for all levels.


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## Danny T (Jan 1, 2015)

KPM said:


> Some have a dummy form that is a little longer than others.  In most Ip Man lineages the dummy form is taught after Chum Kiu.  Those that have a little longer dummy form will often teach the Biu Gee form after the 1st half of the dummy form and teach the second half of the dummy only after the student has the Biu Gee form.  This is because the 2nd half of the dummy form contains techniques and concepts from the Biu Gee form for those lineages.   In Pin Sun Wing Chun, the dummy is taught right from the beginning.  Each solo set learned has a version that is practiced on the dummy. So from day 1 students do things on the dummy.  Even in Ip Man Wing Chun the dummy has many  good uses right from the beginning. I think the main reasons that many people don't get to touch the dummy until they are more advanced are:
> 
> 1.  Larger class sizes with limited time.  This doesn't leave much opportunity to work on the dummy except for the advanced students.
> 2.  A dummy is expensive to buy and not many can make their own so most students don't have one at home to practice on.  In my mind the Wing Chun dummy serves a similar purpose as the Boxing heavy bag.  But if you don't have ready access to one, what are you going to learn?
> 3.  Even if an instructor is teaching a small group or has multiple dummies available for a larger group, it could be he or she wasn't taught anything on the dummy as a beginner, therefore they don't teach any dummy practice to beginners.  This would be a shame, because the dummy is a great tool for all levels.


I agree KPM, the jong is an excellent tool for all levels.
As I already stated, I use the jong early for drills and the form while learning Chum Kiu. 1st half of the form is CK and the 2nd is CK and BJ. I have 4 Mook Jongs set at differing heights for different height students and we work the jong several times a month. Advanced students work the form as well as drills and free movements.


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## Transk53 (Jan 1, 2015)

KPM said:


> Some have a dummy form that is a little longer than others.  In most Ip Man lineages the dummy form is taught after Chum Kiu.  Those that have a little longer dummy form will often teach the Biu Gee form after the 1st half of the dummy form and teach the second half of the dummy only after the student has the Biu Gee form.  This is because the 2nd half of the dummy form contains techniques and concepts from the Biu Gee form for those lineages.   In Pin Sun Wing Chun, the dummy is taught right from the beginning.  Each solo set learned has a version that is practiced on the dummy. So from day 1 students do things on the dummy.  Even in Ip Man Wing Chun the dummy has many  good uses right from the beginning. I think the main reasons that many people don't get to touch the dummy until they are more advanced are:
> 
> 1.  *Larger class sizes with limited time*.  This doesn't leave much opportunity to work on the dummy except for the advanced students.
> 2.  *A dummy is expensive to buy* and not many can make their own so most students don't have one at home to practice on.  In my mind the Wing Chun dummy serves a similar purpose as the Boxing heavy bag.  But if you don't have ready access to one, what are you going to learn?
> 3.  Even if an instructor is teaching a small group or has multiple dummies available for a larger group, it could be he or she wasn't taught anything on the dummy as a beginner, therefore they don't teach any dummy practice to beginners.  This would be a shame, because the dummy is a great tool for all levels.



I can see that. I know from before that some classes are rather large. In fact I remember I quite shocked that both the JKD classes were less than a dozen each on average. Must have been at least 30 students every time at Wing Chun. The cost of a tough plastic dummy is nearly £300 pounds. Another 100 or so for a wooden one. Mind new something made from a decent lump of wood, I guess it would cost some money. I imagine they are expertly crafted as opposed to totally machine made.


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## geezer (Jan 1, 2015)

KPM said:


> 1.  Larger class sizes with limited time.  This doesn't leave much opportunity to work on the dummy except for the advanced students.
> 2.  A dummy is expensive to buy and not many can make their own so most students don't have one at home to practice on.  In my mind the Wing Chun dummy serves a similar purpose as the Boxing heavy bag.  But if you don't have ready access to one, what are you going to learn?
> 3.  Even if an instructor is teaching a small group or has multiple dummies available for a larger group, it could be he or she wasn't taught anything on the dummy as a beginner, therefore they don't teach any dummy practice to beginners.  This would be a shame, because the dummy is a great tool for all levels.



Pretty logical analysis. Another reason for not teaching the dummy for a long time could be to wave it as a "carrot" to keep students coming to class over a longer period of time. Sometimes the same is true for the weapons. 

I keep my own dummy at home. My personal excuse for not having a dummy for the school is that I have a very small group that rents space at a boxing gym. We really haven't had the funds to get a school dummy or the space to put it up _...yet._  I'm working on that. Personally, contrary to the way I was taught, I agree that there are many things that could be trained productively on the dummy from a very early stage.


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## Transk53 (Jan 1, 2015)

geezer said:


> Pretty logical analysis. Another reason for not teaching the dummy for a long time could be to wave it as a "carrot" to keep students coming to class over a longer period of time. Sometimes the same is true for the weapons.



Could that not be a little counterproductive though. Perhaps students at whatever level may slack off a little from being precise in the learning structure, to thinking yeah "get passed that as quickly as possible, then the dummy is mine" kind of thing?


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## Danny T (Jan 1, 2015)

geezer said:


> Pretty logical analysis. Another reason for not teaching the dummy for a long time could be to wave it as a "carrot" to keep students coming to class over a longer period of time. Sometimes the same is true for the weapons.



I believe the carrot theory is to keep students "paying" over a longer period of time. And often the same for weapons.
I start my students doing the weapons strength training drills when they are about half way through Chum Kiu training.


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## wingerjim (Jan 23, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Hey all, Had a conversation with a Wing Chunner that I know. It regarded the use of the wooden dummy, or as you peeps would say Muk Yan Jong. For a start he said it was the fifth form, I understand to be the fourth. Anyway whatever the case, do you have to complete the three empty hands before you start using a dummy? This I assume would what would be the class curriculum. This Wing Chunner says that he has bought a dummy with which to practice.
> 
> Now I cannot verify or debunk his claims that he has gone beyond the first forms, I don’t want to be disbelieving, but if you need what comes before, would there be any point in getting a dummy. Can you practice effectively without arriving at the time of going to Muk Yan Jong? May seem a silly question, but I was thinking of the conditioning that a person, or myself, that would come from the wood (or hard plastic). I imagine it would be a little painful at first. In addition to this, I am thinking that it would be a few years before you got anywhere near one. Thoughts?


In my school my teacher started me and all other students on the dummy almost from day 1, not the form, but very small parts of the form like intercept hand and pak sau. As the student progresses and begins Chum Kue, they start to do more complex dummy exercises and by the time a student begins to learn bil gee, the student might know the first 30 parts of the dummy form. By the time the student is proficient in bil gee, he/she might have learned the entire dummy form but only about 50% proficient. I like this process of a little overlap of skills as one progresses. While this is going on the student starts part of the pole form and once they begin learning the entire pole form, some sword form begins.


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