# The official "Bujinkan use of ASP" thread



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jul 13, 2006)

It so happens that I work as a security guard, for a small company specializing in loss prevention. Basically this means I get to walk around various stores in civilian clothing, catch shoplifters, inspect employees's bags as they leave for home and make sure nobody's providing alcohol to minors. My current work loadout includes a roughly 20 inch baton (rubber with a steel core) which I carry vertically tip-up on my left side in a custom made shoulder holster, Hatch gloves, and a bullet-resistant vest I usually only carry in one particular area of town. 

In september though, I'll go through a certification course that'll allow me to carry a 21 inch expandable as well, and possibly handcuffs as well. Fortunately, having looked through our intervention archives, it seems like only two of our people (both of them women, interestingly enough) have had to use violence to subdue perps for the last year and a half. Nevertheless, as we all know it's better to have and not need than to need and not have.
I own two ASPs already and I'm currently experimenting with methods of carry. So far, a cross draw from a left side rotating holster carry is the method that seems the most comfortable to me. Either that, or tip-up carry in my right back pocket if I for whatever reason don't have a sheath available. 

As for usage, even with my current baton, I'm only allowed to target the arms and legs and will probably face severe legal repercussions if I hit anything else. That by the way is the problem with most ASP instructional material available today, all those cool chokes and fight-stopping targets are off-limits for actual use, at least when used in the line of duty as is the case with me. 

Comment away, ladies and gentlemen.


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## HKphooey (Jul 13, 2006)

I am very surprised your employer lets you carry a baton.  Back in college, I worked LP for Lord & Taylor.  We would be fired on the spot for carrying any weapons. 

But in any case, handcuffs can be just as effective as a weapon.


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## shesulsa (Jul 13, 2006)

Certified in ASP 1 here.

In Washington state, you're allowed to attack the offending appendage, so if your perp has any kind of hand-held weapon, you can use the asp on the appendage carrying the weapon.  We train to target center of mass.

How you extend and re-close your EB is important based on the confrontation.

Which is the more comfortable draw for you and why, Nimravus?

Also curious if Booj shows joint lock/pressure point combos you can use while the EB is _not_ extended. Thanks.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jul 13, 2006)

I prefer a cross draw from a left side carry as stated before. Mainly because both the velcro and the plastic sheath are tight enough to make a draw from tip-up carry stiff and jerky. Also, a left side cross draw enables me to relatively quickly produce the baton at a sideways position across my left chest (which seems far less threatening and offensive than the classical "caveman" chambering position, while at the same time positioning it for both vertical, diagonal and horizontal strikes), as well as hit the attacker's front arm or leg at the same time as the baton is extended.


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## Blotan Hunka (Jul 13, 2006)

Im sorry dude, no insult intended but I couldnt resist.

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/lofiversion/index.php/t30419.html


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## Don Roley (Jul 14, 2006)

Luke Molitor is the guy who I would reccomend talking to about the matter. He is qualified in it's use as well as being a very skilled Bujinkan teacher.

I have one as well, given to me by him. Nagase and I both have played with them and found ways to incorperate taijutsu into their use. But I still tend to think of what I do as being a work in progress.


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## ginshun (Jul 14, 2006)

Blotan Hunka said:
			
		

> Im sorry dude, no insult intended but I couldnt resist.
> 
> http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/lofiversion/index.php/t30419.html



My apologies as well Nim, but I couldn't help it either, the first thing I thought when I read the OP was "Oh my god...a real life mall ninja" LOL


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jul 14, 2006)

With the paycheck I get, bring it on I say. %-}


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## Bigshadow (Jul 14, 2006)

First, I will admit I don't use an asp but I do program in ASP (I had to read the thread as I thought it meant *A*ctive *S*erver *P*ages, I am such a geek :rofl.  However, I have held one and messed around with it.  It was a collapsable baton that belonged to a LEO who was training with us at the time.  It seems to me that it can be used in many ways, open or closed.  I can see it used to pinch skin on grabs, pressed in between the bones of the hands on gyakus, and of course the more obvious strikes to the hands, wrists, inside of the arms, etc.


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## Andy Moynihan (Jul 16, 2006)

No civilian use of ASPs here, I'm afraid.

That's something I can't follow the logic of.

I can carry a gun, but not an ASP. Does anyone know how that works?:idunno:


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## green meanie (Jul 16, 2006)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Certified in ASP 1 here.


 
Very cool. Can you tell me more about this? How & where can one go to get ASP certified? You are ASP 1 Certified? How many levels are there and what do the different levels involve? Thanks!


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## Blotan Hunka (Jul 16, 2006)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> With the paycheck I get, bring it on I say. %-}


 
Youre a good sport.

:asian:


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## Blotan Hunka (Jul 16, 2006)

green meanie said:
			
		

> Very cool. Can you tell me more about this? How & where can one go to get ASP certified? You are ASP 1 Certified? How many levels are there and what do the different levels involve? Thanks!


 
If its like martial arts probably as many levels as you want as long as you keep paying.


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## shesulsa (Jul 16, 2006)

green meanie said:
			
		

> Very cool. Can you tell me more about this? How & where can one go to get ASP certified? You are ASP 1 Certified? How many levels are there and what do the different levels involve? Thanks!


I should say, rather, I'm certified in Extendable Baton, I.

My teacher is certified to instruct EB and the program is, I believe, separated into basic, intermediate, advanced and instructional.  At the time I was going to go for intermediate I started training for my black belt test and honestly just haven't made the time to pick it back up.

I learned some basics of drawing, retracting, different kinds of EBs, some state laws governing the carriage and usage by whom, basic strikes both extended and retracted, etcetera.

Since the retracted EB simulates a short wood stick we use in training, I also already know how to use it to aid in joint locks and pressure points and I'm guessing  that this is part of the intermediate program.  I'll have to talk to my instructor about his intermediate and advanced programs.

Where can you get certified?  Hmm.  I would start asking people who carry them and who teach EB if they are certified to instruct, by whom and if you can get certified as well.


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## Don Roley (Jul 17, 2006)

Nimravus,
You show up to Japan from time to time, right?

Give me some advanced warning before your next trip and I will talk to Nagase. I will explain that you carry an ASP for your work and would like to know how to use it within the legal situation you have. He has one, I have two and if you bring yours we could have a little class on their use. I could meet up with you beforehand and show you some stuff so that he can spend less time introducing info and more time fine tuning the moves.


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## Kreth (Jul 17, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Nimravus,
> You show up to Japan from time to time, right?
> 
> Give me some advanced warning before your next trip and I will talk to Nagase. I will explain that you carry an ASP for your work and would like to know how to use it within the legal situation you have. He has one, I have two and if you bring yours we could have a little class on their use. I could meet up with you beforehand and show you some stuff so that he can spend less time introducing info and more time fine tuning the moves.


Is it legal to bring an ASP into Japan?


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## Carol (Jul 17, 2006)

Andy Moynihan said:
			
		

> No civilian use of ASPs here, I'm afraid.
> 
> That's something I can't follow the logic of.
> 
> I can carry a gun, but not an ASP. Does anyone know how that works?:idunno:


 
In our state?  You have an understanding chief (or armorer), otherwise you may not be packing at all


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jul 18, 2006)

Kreth said:
			
		

> Is it legal to bring an ASP into Japan?



My thoughts exactly. However, I did manage to get a balisong OUT of Japan last time...

Funny though, I busted a long-time drug abuser trying to steal a bottle of Smirnoff today. If all junkies keep being that compliant, I doubt I'll ever have to use a baton...


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 18, 2006)

The ASP is an excellent tool.  I enjoy using mine for striking as well as joint locking techniques.  While I am not to sure you can bring one into
Japan.  You can probably buy one there and bring it out of the country.

Then again, when I went to Japan last I brought in all kinds of sticks, booken, fukuro shinai, kunai, training rope and nobody paid the slightest bit of attention to them. :ultracool 

Don, when I get to Japan next I would love to see you or Nagase demonstate how you work with the ASP.  Heck if and when you make it back to the states look me up and we can have you up for a seminar.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Dale Seago (Jul 19, 2006)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> However, I did manage to get a balisong OUT of Japan last time...



Aye, and years ago I brought a custom 14-inch-bladed Scottish dirk out of Japan without getting caught, after realizing I shouldn't have brought it in in the first place. Don Roley will remember that one. Now I content myself with a _sgian dubh_. . .


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## Don Roley (Jul 19, 2006)

Kreth said:
			
		

> Is it legal to bring an ASP into Japan?



Well, I am very careful about staying within the law when I bring things into Japan. Anything that is illeagle in Japan, like certain cold medicines you can get over the counter in America, should be left at home.

But I have bought a copy of the ASP in a _toy store_ here in Japan. They are sold openly without any sort of registration that I have run across. The rules for carrying them around are that they can't be out in the open and ready for use unless you have a certificate and a need to do so. So only security guards really could carry them ready. The rest of us have to carry them in cases just like we do bokkens and rokushakubo.

And at Narita they ask you the typical questions about fruits and such. But the only weapons they ask you if you have are firearms and swords. I don't see a reason to declare them at all. Once  you are in the country, use common sense and keep them in your training bag and you should be ok.

Brian, thanks for the offer of the seminar. But I would not mind showing stuff to someone like yourself of Nimravus so that you could get more out of training with Nagase and have my mistakes corrected. I don't like the idea of going overseas and teaching it there. For one thing, I am not qualified by ASP. I know some of the legalities, but there are probably gaps. If I teach someone who is qualified they will know what to drop do to the legal reality. But that might not be the case in an overseas seminar.

Thanks anyway.

Oh, and yes Dale I do remember that freaking dirk. It was fun to see and hold, because I knew it would be _you_ who got in trouble if it was found.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jul 19, 2006)

On legal usage - no pommel/closed strikes allowed.
On pressure points - useless on substance abusers.


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## Don Roley (Jul 19, 2006)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> On legal usage - no pommel/closed strikes allowed.



Now that I did not know. And it sounds really weird. If someone tries to grab you before you can deploy the weapon and extend it, what the hell do they expect you to do?


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jul 20, 2006)

They probably expect me to "call for backup" from my uniformed counterparts...anyway, I've still got two arms and legs.


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## Don Roley (Jul 25, 2006)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> On legal usage - no pommel/closed strikes allowed.



Getting back to this for a second....

For those qualified on the ASP in the states, is this the case as well? And I realize that it may change from state to state and department to department.

And for Nimravus- if you can't use the pommel of the thing, can you still poke with the other end? Can you use the pommel if the stick is extended i.e.- close in grappling and you can't swing it?


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## shesulsa (Jul 26, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Getting back to this for a second....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm 90% certain that in Washington State you are allowed closed strikes applied to the same locations as open/extended and in a thrusting manner as well.  Unless something has changed that I'm not aware of, I'm fairly certain.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jul 26, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> if you can't use the pommel of the thing, can you still poke with the other end?


 
Probably, but thrusting is (officially) recommended against, in favor of swings.



			
				Don Roley said:
			
		

> Can you use the pommel if the stick is extended i.e.- close in grappling and you can't swing it?


 
I'll get back to you in early september when I've finished my certification course.


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## Don Roley (Jul 29, 2006)

One more thing you might look into.

Nagase is very, very big on hitting with just the last part of the stick. The closer to the edge, the more impact you get. Just hitting with the knob on the end dumps all the power of the swing into a very small area. What is the policy of hitting with as little of the stick hitting as possible?

After all the rules you have told us, I wonder if they expect you to use the thing as nothing more than a fashion statement. :enguard:


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jul 30, 2006)

No sweat. We were taught to hit with the last part when undergoing training for the baton I currently carry (which ironically is way more dangerous than an expandable...).


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## Don Roley (Aug 17, 2006)

Where are you taught to grasp the ASP? My Bujinkan training kind of leads me to grasp up toward the part where it expands from. Kind of like you would grasp a wakazashi. But FMA guys I know grab their stuff towards the opposite end for more leverage. I think that ASP teaches like how I do it, but I would like to ask someone who is actually certified.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Aug 17, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> But FMA guys I know grab their stuff towards the opposite end for more leverage.


 
That's just Serrada as far as I know. 
The course I'm going to attend is scheduled for september third and fourth.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Aug 30, 2006)

Looks like the course is going to be postponed for two weeks. They need at least eight attendants and we're currently only five. In any case, when it's all said and done I'll be able to carry handcuffs as well.


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## mdamignani (Dec 11, 2006)

I was recently certified in the use of the extendable baton.
Don, the way you described holding the ASP is the exact way I was taught through the use of force cource that was part of my law and security program.
As for the best way to carry the baton, find the most comfortable position and always wear it in exactly the same way everytime.
The reason for this is: you will always know where it is and will not have to think about it.  If you are always moving the location of the weapon, you may reach for it and it won't be there when you need it.
Matthew Damignani


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## jks9199 (Dec 12, 2006)

Nimravus said:


> On legal usage - no pommel/closed strikes allowed.
> On pressure points - useless on substance abusers.



Just re-reading this thread, and noticed this.

That may be a state-specific law, or an agency policy.  In my state, I can use the ASP or any other expandable baton in closed position.  I can even use the pommel to strike; I just have to be able to justify and explain my actions.   I can use the closed ASP to apply pressure point control, for example, or to strike at the ulnar nerve to get someone to release a steering wheel.  Works very, very well...  

One big functional concern with any friction lock (but not some of the others with a mechanical lock like Monadnock's Autolock Baton) is that you can't really thrust with it open...  It's likely to close, if the small diameter of the tip doesn't cause more of an injury than you want.

(Now... Can anyone explain why I'm allowed to bash someone with a metal tube but not with a plastic flashlight without tapdancing through the "instinctive response to a sudden threat..." game?)


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## jks9199 (Dec 12, 2006)

Don Roley said:


> Where are you taught to grasp the ASP? My Bujinkan training kind of leads me to grasp up toward the part where it expands from. Kind of like you would grasp a wakazashi. But FMA guys I know grab their stuff towards the opposite end for more leverage. I think that ASP teaches like how I do it, but I would like to ask someone who is actually certified.


When I was trained on the ASP, they didn't fine-tune too much about grip.  I'm more comfortable with at least a fist-width behind my hand if the stick is big enough; I can use that space for a lot of different things, as I'm sure y'all can, too.  Also, if you grab a stick as low as I've seen some FMA types do, I can't help but suspect you're going to lose it if you hit something fairly solid...


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## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 12, 2006)

jks9199 said:


> When I was trained on the ASP, they didn't fine-tune too much about grip. I'm more comfortable with at least a fist-width behind my hand if the stick is big enough; I can use that space for a lot of different things, as I'm sure y'all can, too. Also, if you grab a stick as low as I've seen some FMA types do, I can't help but suspect you're going to lose it if you hit something fairly solid...


 
Losing a stick from impact is always a possibility no matter where your grip is.  A lot of  Filipino practitioners (but not all) prefer a thumb length grip or half a hand from the bottom.  This is similar to how you describe your grip above.  Definately using that extra length for hitting or trapping is a big plus!


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## jks9199 (Dec 12, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Losing a stick from impact is always a possibility no matter where your grip is. A lot of Filipino practitioners (but not all) prefer a thumb length grip or half a hand from the bottom. This is similar to how you describe your grip above. Definately using that extra length for hitting or trapping is a big plus!


 
I've been taught to hold a stick with a minimum of a fist width from the end on any stick... and a minimum of 3 fingers and a thumb for the grip. I've seen some Filipino practioners who seem to hold a stick at impact points with a very loose, index finger/thumb grip.  Hey... I was once taught a police baton technique similar to that, and it could make a very solid hit thanks to the speed.  It can work...  I just prefer a tighter grip.

And I know that any time you hit something, you can lose your grip.  For many years, my system's chief instructor's favorite target for stick training was a suspended log.  We learned to protect our faces from bounce back...and to expect sticks to drop sometimes.:uhohh:    Of course -- people who dropped their sticks became the target of merciless jokes...


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## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 12, 2006)

jks9199 said:


> I've been taught to hold a stick with a minimum of a fist width from the end on any stick... and a minimum of 3 fingers and a thumb for the grip. I've seen some Filipino practioners who seem to hold a stick at impact points with a very loose, index finger/thumb grip. Hey... I was once taught a police baton technique similar to that, and it could make a very solid hit thanks to the speed. It can work... I just prefer a tighter grip.
> 
> And I know that any time you hit something, you can lose your grip. For many years, my system's chief instructor's favorite target for stick training was a suspended log. We learned to protect our faces from bounce back...and to expect sticks to drop sometimes.:uhohh: Of course -- people who dropped their sticks became the target of merciless jokes...


 
I do not think there is much differance to what we are talking about.  I prefer having some stick length after my grip as well.  If the stick is the length of a police baton then you would probably leave more on the end and as the stick shotens well then your grip would come closer to the end as well. (therefore you can get that tip swinging faster)  Personally for me I like having a good length after my grip to strike with and also to use for manipulation or trap with.


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## Don Roley (Feb 17, 2007)

Question,
Does anyone like Brian who uses the baton and have Bujinkan training find themselves going into two handed grips in the middle of movements?

It just seems natural to me when doing what some people call the roof block. My left hand is under the baton so it does not get slammed into my face and it is right there to grab the end of the handle if it is not needed to do things like stick my fingers in someone's eyes, do _musha dori,_ etc. The amount of time to go from a roof block to a _kesa giri_ type of strike from the right seems a hell of a lot faster.


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