# Were they or were they not?



## searcher (May 25, 2005)

I read some time back on a website called the Illuminated Lantern that the ninja of old had never carried out a successful assasination.   The sight did not say that they were not extremely deadly, just that they were better in open combat, working as spies, and creating a panic in the enemy's camp.   I am not wanting a dabate on the matters of today, but I do want everyone's opinion on their claims.   All clean opinions are welcomed and encouraged.


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## mizu_teppo (May 25, 2005)

Mr. Roley is definately the guy to answer this. But I'd like to add that it's possible that if there were some successful assassinations, they could have been erased from history by the ruling class. So in regards to shinobi history it's very difficult to determine what really happened. It's even harder today with all the false history that's spread about (take the Buddhist theory of ninja origin thread as an example).


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## Shogun (May 26, 2005)

yeah, basically, to find "credible" info on Ninja, is like finding credible info on the CIA, or all of the government treaties to american natives that were broken. This doesnt mean that we can take the "it might have been true" path, because there is proof of some things, but much we still and might never know.


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## Cryozombie (May 26, 2005)

The Iluminated lanters is fun reading... I learned a lot about Ninja movies in their section on the Ninja.

 I wouldn't neccessarily call their info Credible... I think they just cite certain authors, and dont do much research.

 My personal opinion is this... (And this is just opinion... I could be 100% off base, but I like to think this...) If there are few or no records of successful assassinations by ninja, but only deaths by natural causes, the ninja did their job well...


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## Don Roley (May 26, 2005)

Define "ninja". 

I am not trying to be cute with that answer. The definition I use most for the ninja is the groups of families in Iga and Koga, as well as their offshoots that used works like the Bansenshukai.

And for that group, I honestly can't think of a single confirmed assasination credited to them. Nor can I think of a reference in one of the books they used that make mention of the act or dealt with the skills needed.

But......

There was a famous case of an assasination. I can't find the book I saw it in, but I know it is dealt with in Turnbull's book on the ninja. A group of men disguised themselves as Yamabushi, killed a high ranking guy and then fled with his head. The had to abandon the head later on and it was recovered.

The thing is, they were retainers , i.e.- *samurai!!!* When ninja were big the tourist spot where the incident took place made a change in refering to them as ninja, but nothing in the historical works treat them as anything other than honorable samurai acting on the orders of their lord.

I point to that incident when people start talking about how the ninja did things that the samurai were too honarable to do themselves. They used deception and disguise to put their target off guard and then assasinated him. So, how is this different from what the ninja were supposed to be? Yet they were highly ranked retainers and treated with honor.

But I can't recall even a single case where the guys from Iga or Koga made mention of assasinating someone.


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## Peter Steeves (May 26, 2005)

About a month ago, I was sitting in the home of the Momochi family in Japan. (Momochi Sandayuu, one of the few acknowledged ninja leaders was born there). The current head of the family was my host, and I had a wonderful chat with him... including finding out that Momochi Sandayuu was a Samurai of the Daimyo Class!

So, if you were a daimyo, in charge of other warriors, yet with clandestine ties, and your local ruler asked you to help eliminate a 'problem' you had choices:
1) mobilize 100 samurai, with armor, with food, with gear, etc
2) ask your already-in-place "agent" to poison the well water...

which is more cost effective? 

He also likened it to the modern military. He noted that there is NO modern military in the world that does not have a clandestine side of their operations. Hatsumi Sensei has noted that perhaps only one war is on the records that was waged without use of "alternative" agents. (He also tells at least one story of an assassination by a ninja - to keep this answer relevant to the thread).

Thanks to Mr. Momochi for a great time. You can see him in the soon-to-be-released documentary: Shinobi - Winds of the 34 Generations.


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## Shogun (May 26, 2005)

> I point to that incident when people start talking about how the ninja did things that the samurai were too honarable to do themselves


thats where a lot of people get confused. they will say the samurai were incapable of "dirty tricks" because they had _honor_. well first of all, part of that honor was to listen to your lord. your lord tells you to do something you damn well better do it! lol.
I think too much value is placed on the Ninja from your basic, not knowing human. were they not just another class of Bushi? do you think in the future people will honor and regard green beret, snipers, or even arab suicide bombers as some sort of war god?
maybe. maybe not.

oh, btw, is there a good "ninja-to straight blade" article out there? this guy I work with loves claiming all this "I've played tenchu and ninja had straight blades because they were opressed farmers" crap. so I is looking for a good article to show him.

cheers,
KE


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## searcher (May 27, 2005)

Thanks for the info.   I have trained in Japanese and Okinawan martial arts for several years, but I have very little info on the ninja.   I just wanted to know what everyone thought about the questions and if they have any info on this subject.


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## Tenjin (May 30, 2005)

> thats where a lot of people get confused. they will say the samurai were incapable of "dirty tricks" because they had _honor_. well first of all, part of that honor was to listen to your lord. your lord tells you to do something you damn well better do it! lol.
> I think too much value is placed on the Ninja from your basic, not knowing human. were they not just another class of Bushi? do you think in the future people will honor and regard green beret, snipers, or even arab suicide bombers as some sort of war god?
> maybe. maybe not..


Where does this idea of the samurai being so honorable, in the Arthurian Chivalric sense of the word, come from anyhow?

Im no scholar, but I read every book on samurai warfare from the period I can get just out of interest and I would hardly call most of their actions anything resembling what people in the modern age romanticize as "honor." 

I was reading a book recently on the Sengoku (spelling?) Period, and in it a group of samurai, after being berated by someones mother, rushed into the tent of an enemy lord and killed him. Not only that, but backstabbing and betrayal seemed second nature in most of the books Ive read during the periods the samurai saw the most action.

Again, outside of crappy movies, where do we get all of this information about how honorable the samurai were, and how underhanded (but snazilliy dressed) the "ninja" were?


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (May 30, 2005)

As a side note regarding the supposed reverence of the samurai sword - has anyone here seen the final battle in The Seven Samurai, where they just stick several swords in the mud and pick them up as they go along?


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## 47MartialMan (May 30, 2005)

I really cant see the excitement of Ninjutsu.

Trained assassins were in every culture.

They were trained, and continued to be trained in the latest available methods for the field.

I think in the Chinese culture they were Tishker, if I am not mistaken.

Some assassinations were successful, others were not.

Out of successful ones, it is a wonder if others were left unrecorded.

Given a choice, I would rather be a trained modern assassin then to train in Ninjutsu (not for art, but for the actual job to be performed)


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (May 31, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> Trained assassins were in every culture.


Well, yes, but the issue here is whether or not assassination was the main purpose of the ninja. There's not much evidence to support that theory.


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## 47MartialMan (May 31, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> Well, yes, but the issue here is whether or not assassination was the main purpose of the ninja. There's not much evidence to support that theory.


How so? Why would they were hoods? Practice stealth?

What kind of evidence needed from such a closed order?


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (May 31, 2005)

1. Give us proof that whomever it may be that you are referring to wore hoods.

2. Stealth has more applications than assassination.

3. Explain what this supposed "closed order" you are referring to is. It sure as hell isn't anything that applies in general to historical ninja.


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## Don Roley (May 31, 2005)

Tenjin said:
			
		

> Where does this idea of the samurai being so honorable, in the Arthurian Chivalric sense of the word, come from anyhow?



Probably from the idea in the west that the samurai were the equivelent of the knights. This idea was probably strenghtened by people like the early Japanese who were in the west after the opening up of Japan. The nationalism of the times tried to portray a link between the modern state and the ideals of Bushido. When dealing with the west, it was in the interest of many of the Japanese studying overseas as representatives of their goverment to portray bushido in as good a light as possible for the target audience.



> How so? Why would they were hoods? Practice stealth?
> 
> What kind of evidence needed from such a closed order?



47 martialman,

They were information gatherers. They spied when that was the best way, and snuck around when that was the best way to get information.

There is no evidence of a succesfull assasination carried out by the ninja of Iga or Koga that I can think of. I can recall no mention in the works they passed down that deals with how to assasinate someone.

There seems to be no evidence that they were assassins by nature. And speculation can apply to anything- like they had a still unrevealed, secret relgion, etc to deal with without proof.


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## 47MartialMan (May 31, 2005)

Interesting.

You mean to tell me that there isnt any old historic text in Japan that dies mention asssination by Ninja?


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## Don Roley (May 31, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> Interesting.
> 
> You mean to tell me that there isnt any old historic text in Japan that dies mention asssination by Ninja?



I try to avoid wide- ranging generalities such as "none", "never" and the like. There may be sources that I have not seen or can't remember. But I do not recall any succesfull assassination by a ninja from Iga or Koga in a historical work.


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## 47MartialMan (May 31, 2005)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> I try to avoid wide- ranging generalities such as "none", "never" and the like. There may be sources that I have not seen or can't remember. But I do not recall any succesfull assassination by a ninja from Iga or Koga in a historical work.


If there are sources that you had not seen or cant remember, kinda mutes the point that Ninjas were not assassins.

Of course, if this is your art, and you are in Japan, you are probably well versed in this than I.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (May 31, 2005)

What a convenient way to circumvent the fact that you yourself have yet to bring forth any sources that prove the ninja WERE assassins.


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## Don Roley (May 31, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> If there are sources that you had not seen or cant remember, kinda mutes the point that Ninjas were not assassins.



The problem with that sort of thinking is that I can say the exact same thing about there being a plot by the Bujinkan to control the world. I see no evidence of it and can't point to anything to back the theory up.

Unless there is proof that can be provided to back up the idea that the ninja were primarily assassins, then the logical thing would be to assume they were not until evidence is provided.


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## 47MartialMan (May 31, 2005)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> The problem with that sort of thinking is that I can say the exact same thing about there being a plot by the Bujinkan to control the world. I see no evidence of it and can't point to anything to back the theory up.
> 
> Unless there is proof that can be provided to back up the idea that the ninja were primarily assassins, then the logical thing would be to assume they were not until evidence is provided.


Good point.

But will research be truely accurate in either favor?


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## Kizaru (Jun 1, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> Of course, if this is your art, and you are in Japan, you are probably well versed in this than I.


Wow. That's the one of the brightest things I've seen written in this neck of the woods.


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## jibran (Jun 1, 2005)

Based on 47's point:
  There is no evidence I have found (so far) that Jedi did *not* live long ago in a galaxy far, far away; therefore, I don't know for sure. 
 That would explain the similarities between Palpatine and Bush though...


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## davidg553 (Jun 1, 2005)

jibran said:
			
		

> Based on 47's point:
> There is no evidence I have found (so far) that Jedi did *not* live long ago in a galaxy far, far away; therefore, I don't know for sure.
> That would explain the similarities between Palpatine and Bush though...


 You are a dumbass.


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## Don Roley (Jun 1, 2005)

Moderator Note. 
Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Please review our sniping policy. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=314 Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you.

-Don Roley
-MT Moderator-


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## Koryu Rich (Jun 1, 2005)

jibran said:
			
		

> Based on 47's point:
> There is no evidence I have found (so far) that Jedi did *not* live long ago in a galaxy far, far away; therefore, I don't know for sure.
> That would explain the similarities between Palpatine and Bush though...


Jibran,
I think you've been hanging round with us Martial Arts Planet guys :jedi1: a bit too much  .

Hi all I'm a long time lurker first time poster and would just like to say that so far I've found Martialtalk to be both fun and very informative. Really enjoyed some of Mr. Roley's posts!!

I'll go find somewhere to do a proper intro.

Thanks

Rich


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## Don Roley (Jun 1, 2005)

Spookyfbi,
Welcome to martialtalk. I hope you enjoy it here.

There is a section of martialtalk devoted to introductions. You will find it toward the top above most other forums.


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## jibran (Jun 1, 2005)

I was not sniping; I was making a joke due to the proximity to Episode 3.


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## ninhito (Jun 1, 2005)

okay this might soudn retarded.  WHy would would there be assasination records?  I mean, in the old days wasn't everything stated by word of mouth. SO then when would there be records of assasinations.  I mean if your suppose to blend in and look like something your not, like a samurai and not a ninja, then wouldn't it be written as samurai as assinating people.  If its suppose to be written down, then why is it written down?  Then their track record must have been amazing, like any amount of assasinations to 0 MIA.


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## 47MartialMan (Jun 1, 2005)

ninhito said:
			
		

> okay this might soudn retarded. WHy would would there be assasination records? I mean, in the old days wasn't everything stated by word of mouth. SO then when would there be records of assasinations. I mean if your suppose to blend in and look like something your not, like a samurai and not a ninja, then wouldn't it be written as samurai as assinating people. If its suppose to be written down, then why is it written down? Then their track record must have been amazing, like any amount of assasinations to 0 MIA.


Well we there is hisroey of famous people getting assassinated throughout time.


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## Dale Seago (Jun 1, 2005)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> The problem with that sort of thinking is that I can say the exact same thing about there being a plot by the Bujinkan to control the world.



Ssshh!!!

Loose lips sink ships, Don. . .
 :wink1:


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## 47MartialMan (Jun 1, 2005)

Dale Seago said:
			
		

> Ssshh!!!
> 
> Loose lips sink ships, Don. . .
> :wink1:


That phrase was always an interesting one form a interesting origin


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