# Traditional Karate



## Manny (Jan 31, 2013)

Hi everyone!! I have some questions about karate and hope you can help me. I am looking for a traditional karate ryu and want to know from you (karatekas) what of the several ryus karate have is the most traditional and why.

I already know that Shoto Kan is the most widespread karate around the world but also know this karate is very sport oriented, teher are so many styles of karate out there that sometimes is dificult to get a good view of every one.

Manny


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## harlan (Jan 31, 2013)

What do you consider the hallmarks of 'traditional'? It's a big discussion, which I'm sure you can search on in the Karate forum. 
This previous thread, based on a book you read, seems to cover the mainstream ryus that exist:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/99456-Karate-ryus?highlight=


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## SuperFLY (Jan 31, 2013)

Manny said:


> I already know that Shoto Kan is the most widespread karate around the world but also know this karate is very sport oriented


the shotokan i practice certainly isn't sport orientated.

although a wide variety of people do practice it. some are just there for fitness, some for the love of martial arts in general, some for competition but its not what i would call sport.. its brutal


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## Uncle (Jan 31, 2013)

So far as I've seen Uechi ryu seems to be the most traditional. Kanbun Uechi went to study in China and created Uechi ryu. It's very traditional in its approach to training and conditioning and the style has been left relatively unchanged from its roots in Chinese martial arts until today, depending on lineage.

Shinyu Gushi was one of Uechi master who died recently. This is a video of him around 60 years old performing sanchin.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESYN8thbFUQ


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## chinto (Jan 31, 2013)

the most traditional karate are of course the Okinawan styles. ( karate came from Okinawa NOT japan.)  the main styles of Okinawan Karate are goju and Uechi ryu from the Naha line, and the Shorin Ryu styles coming from Shuri and Tamari lines.  the main styles in the Shorin ryu line are Shobayashi, Kobayashi, Matsubayashi, and Matsumura Seito styles.   

as to the most sport oriented styles of karate, they all can be taught towards that or for self defense. that has more to do with how you are taught to do the kicks and punches and locks and throws and things.  Most sporterized teaching will not include the locks, brakes and throws and grapples. they will however teach high kicks and such. I would say what you want to do is go talk to the instructors ( Sensei's ) at the dojo in question and talk about what you are looking for.  

Most shotokan Dojo's do not teach the grappling from what I understand.  My understanding is that Master Funikoshi took the grappling mostly out to help diferentiate it from judo and jujitsu when he took it to japan. But there are some shotokan karateka out there who are very very much self defense trained and train others to use it in combat and NOT in tournaments.

So go talk to each styles instructors and sit in on a class, maybe try a class, if they invite you.  Make your decision based on what you get from the instructor and what you see and like of the feel.


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## K-man (Jan 31, 2013)

*Manny*, *Chinto* has said it all, but it depends on what you want to get out of it. You have a base of TKD so the closest to that would probably be Shotokan. The problem, as I see it though, is that it's too much same, same, unless you just want to flesh out the hands a bit.  The Okinawan styles that I consider traditional are Goju Ryu, Shorin Ryu and Uechi Ryu. (Isshin Ryu is classed as traditional but it is a little different.) If you can find a teacher that teaches all the close fighting aspects of those styles, go there. But have a good look around before you commit. When you are panning for gold you have to sort through a lot of gravel!       :asian:


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## Kong Soo Do (Feb 1, 2013)

Uncle said:


> So far as I've seen Uechi ryu seems to be the most traditional. Kanbun Uechi went to study in China and created Uechi ryu. It's very traditional in its approach to training and conditioning and the style has been left relatively unchanged from its roots in Chinese martial arts until today, depending on lineage.



If I may add on to your comments.  Uechi Ryu comes from Chinese Shaolin Pangainoon.  Uechi Kanbun Sensei studied Pangainoon in the Fukien provence temple for a period of ten years.  During which time he learned three of the four forms i.e. Sanchin, Seisan and Sanseiru.  He taught in China for three years and returned to Okinawa (stories differ as to why he returned).   He trained his son, Uechi Kanei who eventually took over the system.  They instituted the Dan/Kyu system around the mid-50's if memory serves.  Uechi Kanei Sensei added five more kata to the system for a total of eight.  The grandson, Uechi Kammei Sensei now has the reigns of the Uechi sytem, however the system has broken into numerous sub-systems i.e. Pangainoon, Pangainoon Ruy, Pangainoon Jutsu, Pangainoon Karate, Pangainoon Kempo etc.  

Pangainoon/Uechi Ryu is a hard/soft system and indeed this is the meaning of Pangainoon (half hard half soft).  Hard body conditioning is stressed and may be a rude shock to practitioners of other martial arts such as TKD.  As an example, it is not uncommon for a Dan test to include Sanchin kata which is the first kata learned.  Now, imagine you're doing this kata while there are four BB's (one on each side, back and front) striking and kicking you while you do the kata.  And we're not taking tippy-tap slaps.  Uechi practitioners commonly condition their shins by kicking tires and/or using bowling pins.  Striking and kicking various parts of the body are routine drills in a normal class.  

Considered one of the main Ryus in Okinawa along with Goju, Shito etc.  This was my first art and still has a place in my heart.  Too be honest, I often think of reverting back to the use of one of the sub-titles.


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## MilkManX (Feb 1, 2013)

I am wondering why your criteria is "most" traditional? Why not the best Karate you can find in your area? I would find the Sensei in your area with the least amount of baloney and mcdojo.  You may be surprised that some of the modern styles are very effective and still have tradition.


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## OldKarateGuy (Feb 3, 2013)

Although there are a number of shotokan organizations, and many of the big tournaments are perhaps shotokan centric, or at the least, friendly to shotokan practitioners, I think you might look at the JKA. The JKA are big on central control, rather than local control. They have a very strict and unchanging syllabus. Most of the national JKA-affiliates are actually run by instructors from Japan (maybe a big part of the proliferation of other shotokan groups). I think the JKA-style shotokan is very tradtiional, and not all that tournament based. It's a hard style, and the tournament rules for sparring are pretty wide open, although they stress control over contact. If you look at a JKA-only tournament, I don't think you'll see the kata done with the same...flair (or theatrics), or the overly large uniforms that you might associate with shotokan kata at open or multi-style tourneys. Just a thought.


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## SuperFLY (Feb 6, 2013)

chinto said:


> Most shotokan Dojo's do not teach the grappling from what I understand.  My understanding is that Master Funikoshi took the grappling mostly out to help diferentiate it from judo and jujitsu when he took it to japan. But there are some shotokan karateka out there who are very very much self defense trained and train others to use it in combat and NOT in tournaments.


yeh we dont teach a lot of a grappling but there are various takedowns/throws/pins etc.. as part of the higher kumite sets.

plus, although taught kinda separately we also do self defence techniques which involve takedowns/holds etc..

i actually encorporate a lot of my aikido knowledge into these whenever im leading the class. surprising just how effective it can be even out of the normal set forms. as even complimented by my sensei's sensei the other week with regards to my technique in using my whole body for power and not my strength to control my partner.


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## Grenadier (Feb 8, 2013)

Manny said:


> Hi everyone!! I have some questions about karate and hope you can help me. I am looking for a traditional karate ryu and want to know from you (karatekas) what of the several ryus karate have is the most traditional and why.
> 
> I already know that Shoto Kan is the most widespread karate around the world but also know this karate is very sport oriented, teher are so many styles of karate out there that sometimes is dificult to get a good view of every one.
> 
> Manny



No one system is really more "traditional" than another.  Even within a particular system, you'll have different schools with different methods, emphasis points, etc.  

As for Shotokan Karate being more of a sport-oriented one, that's simply not the case.  

When you look at various Shotokan Karate dojos, you'll see some which do encourage competition, while some don't compete at all.  When it comes to the ones that do compete, most are going to favor the more standardized tournaments (WKF / USANKF) and that the "open" tournaments, where anything goes for kata and kumite, are not favored. 

In the standardized tournaments, it is true, that most of the kata performed in competition are going to be from Shotokan and Shito Ryu, so it could certainly be said that the competitions are more represented by Shotokan Karate-Ka.


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## Gorilla (Feb 16, 2013)

He is in incredible shape!



I am referring to the post from uncle...the Utube vid of Sanchin


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## Gorilla (Feb 16, 2013)

Very accurate post... our school has a very sport oriented approach and we do WKF/NKF Karate.  Even though we are sport school we still have allot of  traditional  Shotokan that we do.  80% sport 20% traditional!





Grenadier said:


> No one system is really more "traditional" than another.  Even within a particular system, you'll have different schools with different methods, emphasis points, etc.  As for Shotokan Karate being more of a sport-oriented one, that's simply not the case.  When you look at various Shotokan Karate dojos, you'll see some which do encourage competition, while some don't compete at all.  When it comes to the ones that do compete, most are going to favor the more standardized tournaments (WKF / USANKF) and that the "open" tournaments, where anything goes for kata and kumite, are not favored. In the standardized tournaments, it is true, that most of the kata performed in competition are going to be from Shotokan and Shito Ryu, so it could certainly be said that the competitions are more represented by Shotokan Karate-Ka.


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## K-man (Feb 16, 2013)

Gorilla said:


> Very accurate post... our school has a very sport oriented approach and we do WKF/NKF Karate.  Even though we are sport school we still have allot of  traditional  Shotokan that we do.  80% sport 20% traditional!


If you are sport oriented, you are sport oriented.  Just like the girl who is 80% pregnant and 20% not pregnant.


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 16, 2013)

Im only a couple of months into my shotokan training (after 7 or 8 years of old school tkd) and so far I certainly dont find it sport orientated at all. I imagine it would vary from school to school like most arts.


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## Gorilla (Feb 16, 2013)

K-man said:


> If you are sport oriented, you are sport oriented.  Just like the girl who is 80% pregnant and 20% not pregnant.



:jediduel:


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## twendkata71 (Mar 27, 2014)

For me, how "traditional" a style/or school is depends on the kata. Do they perform the kata in the original manner or with more flashy changes for competition? How old are their kata and do they know the lineage of the kata? In this respect the Okinawan styles(Shorin ryu- Shobayashi,Kobayashi,Matsubayashi, Matsumura seito,Kyodokan), Goju ryu,Shorinji ryu and Uechi ryu are the most traditional. Isshin ryu is traditional in that most Isshin ryu school teach/practice the kata the way that Shimabuku taught them. 
In the Japanese karate do circles many consider Shotokan(JKA) to be the most "traditional" even though Funakoshi changed all of the kata that he learned on Okinawa. It (JKA) however has remained consistant in it's training and performance of their kata. I do think that Funakoshi's students made more changes to the kata later(and not necessarily with his approval  or liking). I find Shito ryu to be very traditional. But, with all of the different factions, you will find the kata performed differently from one faction to the other. I belive that Mabuni kept most of his kata closer to the original Okinawan style. 

It is also in their training methods. A traditional style will use older or ancient training methods and equiptment for conditioning, like the Makiwara and old style weight equiptment. 

Lineage also has a lot to do with how "traditional"a style/school is. 

If you walk into a dojo and the sensei is wearing a multi coloured gi and has music blarring in the background and you can get your black belt in 6 months or a year, you probably are not in an traditional dojo. Just saying.


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## donald1 (Mar 27, 2014)

in the goju ryu karate school i go to does very little sport.(most of the time we don't even talk about them either)
i don't know how to decide which styles are more traditional, i guess one could decide percentage wise or maybe comparison.
i'm fairly certain the one i go to is traditional because it can be strict and has been, a lot of the techniques get used and demonstrated as would in a real life situation, many of the Kata are old. and getting a black belt would probably take around 5 years or longer if it takes you longer to properly earn the rank.


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