# Technique Discussion: Dropping The Storm & 5 Swords



## MJS

Dropping the storm, is an IKCA tech. 5 Swords is obviously Parker Kenpo. Both are off of a right roundhouse punch. There has been discussion on the practicality or effectiveness of DTS. Ras, known on the forums as atacxgym, was kind enough to post a clip of himself doing DTS. I watched it today (nice clip Ras ) and felt that it was very similar to 5S. That being said, lets begin the discussion. 

Here is the written breakdown of DTS:

*Dropping[FONT=&quot] the Storm[/FONT]* [FONT=&quot]Inside defense against a Right Hook Punch[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]1. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Step back into Right neutral bow with a double block to the arm (one hand hitting the bicep and the other hand hitting between the wrist and the elbow[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The right hand loops back into a back fist strike (si[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]3. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The right hand grabs the garment near the collar and the left hand grabs the arm or garment near the wrist as you step in and kick the legs out from under the attacker, dropping the right elbow into the attackers solar plexus[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]4. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The left hand keeps a hold on the wrist while the other hand slides up the arm for control.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]5. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Pulling up with both hands on the arm, drop ricochet kick to the ribs on the way through.[/FONT]


Here is the video of DTS, courtesy of Ras. 

[yt]tFbBmkR5hM8&feature=feedu[/yt]

Here is the video of 5S, courtesy of Casa De Kenpo.

[yt]hjlChmMnVJs[/yt]

Ras commented that it would be better to do the block to the punch, while at the same time, striking the face, to cancel out a potential counter from the other person, ie: a left hook, a knee, a takedown, etc. 5S basically does the same thing, 2 blocks to the arm, then continues with a sword to the next, and so on. So, isn't there a risk of something similar happening, as Ras describes, when you do 5S?


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## Touch Of Death

MJS said:


> Dropping the storm, is an IKCA tech. 5 Swords is obviously Parker Kenpo. Both are off of a right roundhouse punch. There has been discussion on the practicality or effectiveness of DTS. Ras, known on the forums as atacxgym, was kind enough to post a clip of himself doing DTS. I watched it today (nice clip Ras ) and felt that it was very similar to 5S. That being said, lets begin the discussion.
> 
> Here is the written breakdown of DTS:
> 
> *Dropping[FONT=&quot] the Storm[/FONT]* [FONT=&quot]Inside defense against a Right Hook Punch[/FONT]
> 
> [FONT=&quot]1. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Step back into Right neutral bow with a double block to the arm (one hand hitting the bicep and the other hand hitting between the wrist and the elbow[/FONT]
> 
> [FONT=&quot]2. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The right hand loops back into a back fist strike (si[/FONT]
> 
> [FONT=&quot]3. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The right hand grabs the garment near the collar and the left hand grabs the arm or garment near the wrist as you step in and kick the legs out from under the attacker, dropping the right elbow into the attackers solar plexus[/FONT]
> 
> [FONT=&quot]4. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The left hand keeps a hold on the wrist while the other hand slides up the arm for control.[/FONT]
> 
> [FONT=&quot]5. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Pulling up with both hands on the arm, drop ricochet kick to the ribs on the way through.[/FONT]
> 
> 
> Here is the video of DTS, courtesy of Ras.
> 
> [yt]tFbBmkR5hM8&feature=feedu[/yt]
> 
> Here is the video of 5S, courtesy of Casa De Kenpo.
> 
> [yt]hjlChmMnVJs[/yt]
> 
> Ras commented that it would be better to do the block to the punch, while at the same time, striking the face, to cancel out a potential counter from the other person, ie: a left hook, a knee, a takedown, etc. 5S basically does the same thing, 2 blocks to the arm, then continues with a sword to the next, and so on. So, isn't there a risk of something similar happening, as Ras describes, when you do 5S?


I take issue with that first way too; however, maybe it was not done the way it was supposed to be.
Sean


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## jks9199

It looks to me like the Dropping the Storm version is a modification of the 5 Swords, developed by someone with an incomplete understanding of it.

In 5 Swords, as shown, the defender is stepping IN and the double "block" actually includes a very clear and powerful unbalancing strike to the shoulder.  The timing would likely preclude a lot of follow up attacks, if the attacker is truly unbalanced.

It's also important to realize that the strike to the face in both following the double block could be redirected to deflect and strike an incoming punch.  Positioning weakens or negates knee attacks.

Personally -- were I to use a similar defensive pattern, it'd might go something like this:
As the attacker delivers the right roundhouse punch, step in to their center, delivering a hammer/cross-body block simultaneously blocking the punch and striking the attacker's face/neck along the jaw line with my right hand.  I'd carry the right hand across then, reversing it to a elbow or back fist (depending on range), which would become a wrap and pull the attacker into a left rising or driving knee strike, then step back, pulling them down into the ground.


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## yorkshirelad

I stopped doing the double inward block years ago on 5 swords for the reason given by atacxgym. It leaves you way to exposed and opens the door to the opponant borrowing the force of the block to initiate a left hook, or the left hook could even be an unintentional move by the opponant.

I use a left cover block, with my fingers locked firmly behind my head and my forearm tight against my temple as I step forward with my right into a right forward bow with my heal off the ground, while I simultaneously I use a right upward elbow to my opponants jaw (or nose if he correctly attacks with his chin down). From this position, I plant into my neutral bow, slamming my left heel down using gravitational marriage as I simultaneously perform a right downward handsword to my opponant's right bicep. I then continue with the technique, using the rebound of the right handsword to propel the right handsword into the right side of the opponant's neck/jaw.

When Atacxgym explains that DTS is finished with Osoto-gari I was left shaking my head. With the force of the Uke's hook coming forward on a circular angle, i would think Soto maki komi would be more beneficial as a finish. If you start the technique the same way I start 5 swords then the right upward elbow should force the opponant's head back in the ideal phase, which would then open up Osotogari as a viable finish.


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## Blindside

If I can get the centerline on a guy, I am not going to be giving it up to spend time blocking the attacking arm with my lead arm. Step in with the right, use the left forearm to jam the attacking arm at the bicep, right forearm is slamming into the neck/throat area to check their forward momentum. This takes you off the "one-two" beat pattern and inside the arc of the potential left.


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## marlon

The techniques are very interesting.  Hopefully, no one will mind the input of an SKK person.  In the first technique the pathof the right are can make all the difference.  instead of a semi linear shot to the shoulder or bicep a more circular attack to the same target but that first directs itself towards the head will check forward momentum of the body and certainly cause the attacker to become a little more defensive minded.  as for the throw a counter clockwise spin with a slight adjustment of the position of the right leg would flow better for that particular throw..Just in a different direction

5 swords the same comment can be applied for the block, however 5 swords has a natural response in that the sword attack after striking the bicep from point of origin naturally can protect against a counter strike and without distrupting flow the follow strike get the job done

Both techniques, however with sufficient depth of entry can easily preclude a counter strike especially with the leg check that was mentioned in the 5 swords vid

all in my humble opinion and with the awareness of my limited knowledge of AK

Respectfully,
marlon


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## MJS

Touch Of Death said:


> I take issue with that first way too; however, maybe it was not done the way it was supposed to be.
> Sean


 
Good point, and I think we say that, because of the crapfest thats going on at KT.  But, be that as it may, I still think that its making for an interesting discussion.   OTOH, reading the tech breakdown of DTS, and this is coming from someone (me) who does not train in that system, I'm curious as to a) why step back vs. stepping up and b) does an adjustment step need to be used, to compensate for stepping back?


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## MJS

jks9199 said:


> It looks to me like the Dropping the Storm version is a modification of the 5 Swords, developed by someone with an incomplete understanding of it.


 
I dont know how much time Vic and Chuck spent with Parker.  That being said, I dont know how well they know 5S.



> In 5 Swords, as shown, the defender is stepping IN and the double "block" actually includes a very clear and powerful unbalancing strike to the shoulder. The timing would likely preclude a lot of follow up attacks, if the attacker is truly unbalanced.
> 
> It's also important to realize that the strike to the face in both following the double block could be redirected to deflect and strike an incoming punch. Positioning weakens or negates knee attacks.
> 
> Personally -- were I to use a similar defensive pattern, it'd might go something like this:
> As the attacker delivers the right roundhouse punch, step in to their center, delivering a hammer/cross-body block simultaneously blocking the punch and striking the attacker's face/neck along the jaw line with my right hand. I'd carry the right hand across then, reversing it to a elbow or back fist (depending on range), which would become a wrap and pull the attacker into a left rising or driving knee strike, then step back, pulling them down into the ground.


 
IMHO, it seems to me, that the initial blocks in 5S are designed for just what you said...to be powerful and unbalancing.  Hopefully if the arm is blasted hard enough, it'll nullify any other actions from the attacker.  Ras is saying that the other attack could still come or be too quick.  I think that the idea of 5S is to be quick enough with the follow up shots, to hopefully cancel out anything else.


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## MJS

yorkshirelad said:


> I stopped doing the double inward block years ago on 5 swords for the reason given by atacxgym. It leaves you way to exposed and opens the door to the opponant borrowing the force of the block to initiate a left hook, or the left hook could even be an unintentional move by the opponant.


 
Good point.  As I said to JKS, it seems to me that the idea is to hit hard enough to destroy or deaden the rt. arm, and hit with the handsword.  This is the assumption.  Of course, this may not always work as planned, as Ras said.  



> I use a left cover block, with my fingers locked firmly behind my head and my forearm tight against my temple as I step forward with my right into a right forward bow with my heal off the ground, while I simultaneously I use a right upward elbow to my opponants jaw (or nose if he correctly attacks with his chin down). From this position, I plant into my neutral bow, slamming my left heel down using gravitational marriage as I simultaneously perform a right downward handsword to my opponant's right bicep. I then continue with the technique, using the rebound of the right handsword to propel the right handsword into the right side of the opponant's neck/jaw.


 
I like that.  



> When Atacxgym explains that DTS is finished with Osoto-gari I was left shaking my head. With the force of the Uke's hook coming forward on a circular angle, i would think Soto maki komi would be more beneficial as a finish. If you start the technique the same way I start 5 swords then the right upward elbow should force the opponant's head back in the ideal phase, which would then open up Osotogari as a viable finish.


 
I'm not a huge fan of throws, for the simple fact that if they're not done right or quick enough, you could end up putting yourself in a worse position than you started in.  I'd rather opt for sweeping the leg, if possible.


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## MJS

Blindside said:


> If I can get the centerline on a guy, I am not going to be giving it up to spend time blocking the attacking arm with my lead arm. Step in with the right, use the left forearm to jam the attacking arm at the bicep, right forearm is slamming into the neck/throat area to check their forward momentum. This takes you off the "one-two" beat pattern and inside the arc of the potential left.


 
I like that!!!


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## MJS

While this is a Kaju club defense, I thought I'd post this, because while its a club defense, its still a roundhouse attack.  Also, some have mentioned striking 2 different areas at the same time.  We see this in this tech.  Left blocks, right hits the collar bone.


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## MJS

marlon said:


> The techniques are very interesting. Hopefully, no one will mind the input of an SKK person. In the first technique the pathof the right are can make all the difference. instead of a semi linear shot to the shoulder or bicep a more circular attack to the same target but that first directs itself towards the head will check forward momentum of the body and certainly cause the attacker to become a little more defensive minded. as for the throw a counter clockwise spin with a slight adjustment of the position of the right leg would flow better for that particular throw..Just in a different direction
> 
> 5 swords the same comment can be applied for the block, however 5 swords has a natural response in that the sword attack after striking the bicep from point of origin naturally can protect against a counter strike and without distrupting flow the follow strike get the job done


 
Nice. 




> all in my humble opinion and with the awareness of my limited knowledge of AK
> 
> Respectfully,
> marlon


 
Your comments are always welcome.


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## marlon

MJS said:


> Nice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your comments are always welcome.


 
You are kind sir.Thank you

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## marlon

MJS said:


> While this is a Kaju club defense, I thought I'd post this, because while its a club defense, its still a roundhouse attack. Also, some have mentioned striking 2 different areas at the same time. We see this in this tech. Left blocks, right hits the collar bone.


 
nice however i note that the right 'block' strikes the arm that could coounter attack. so both limbs are checked and the force of the enttry move precludes a counter with the legs

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## MJS

marlon said:


> nice however i note that the right 'block' strikes the arm that could coounter attack. so both limbs are checked and the force of the enttry move precludes a counter with the legs
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon


 
Good point.  I'll have to play with this a bit, but I'm wondering how well this would work using 5 Swords as the model.


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## Blindside

MJS said:


> I like that!!!



I use it in this vid at about 0:42 and 2:05, the attack was supposed to be a roundhouse club, but we didn't have much time to practice. 






And the falling on my butt trying to kick him wasn't in the plan either.


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## punisher73

jks9199 said:


> It looks to me like the Dropping the Storm version is a modification of the 5 Swords, developed by someone with an incomplete understanding of it.


 
GM Chuck Sullivan (along with Vic LeRoux) is who came up with this technique.  He was among Parker's first BB's from the old days.  He has currently practiced kenpo for over 50 years.  I don't think it's a question of an incomplete understanding.

Also, when I watched this technque on the video when GM Sullivan first does it, he doesn't step back with it.  He does the double block just as in 5 Swords.


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## ATACX GYM

Hello all,I'm Ras...the guy who unintentionally kicked up that lovefest over there on KT.I have zero experience with IKCA; however I too hold a black belt in woyingchuan,which was the name of the BKF's martial art back in the 90's when I trained with Master Amen Rah and Charles at the 109 School of Discipline.I had my black belt already,and Master Amen Rah merely confirmed my position,but I'm not stuck on rank; I like knowledge.I wore all kinds of color belts at the 109 School of Discipline and I brought Judo and GJJ to the 109 School.This is in 92-93 just before the beginning of what would be the grappling craze ushered in by the Gracies.At the time,nobody in the BKF had an extensive ground grappling game to my knowledge.

Why is that important? Because I met GM Vic of the IKCA (looong before he was a GM) a few times years ago and spoke to him last week.I remember him from Sijo's L.A. school.He was the only White guy there.Vic and GM Sullivan--who also was a teacher to Sijo Muhammed aka GM Steve Muhammad of the BKF--formulated this technique,Dropping The Storm.The names garlanding DTS the technique is quite impressive; maybe even a little intimidating.

However,the DTS method as written is squarely within the parameters of the "Ideal Phase" in Kenpo,and has significant problems as a result.Not in concept per se,but in its training models.There is a prevalent approach in Kenpo in general to Graft from technique to technique depending upon the exigencies of the scenario; the problem is each technique is primarily practiced in the "Ideal Phase" and the "Ideal Phase" is severely limited in functionality.So basically too many kenpoists would Graft from one technique that will likely get your butt kicked or worse to another technique which ALSO is likely to get your butt kicked or worse;and when they get their butt kicked or worse? They conclude that Kenpo doesn't work.Off they got to MMA.The one thing about MMA? Those guys can do what they say they can do.Why? Because almost everything they do is based upon functionality in the cage.We SD folks need to focus on functionality on the streets above all else.Which means looootsssssa sparring. So I proposed the not-so-novel idea that we spar with each of the 72 self-defense sequences in each of the scenarios that predominate self-defense: standup,clinch,up-seaed (one party is seated,the other standing),seated-seated,up-down (one party is standing the other is on the ground),ground-ground,multifights,armed,armed multifights,surprise attacks from 360 degree Circle of Protection,escape all of the above,rescue (innocent/loved one/property whatever in danger) from all of the above,rescue and escape (with innocent/loved one/property/whatever) from all of the above...and the result will be a single technique that can and will function under all primary stimuli that civilian self-defense calls for.This would also result in dramatically reengineering all 72 technique sequences,but the results would yield maximal functionality.We could then share our techniques with each other,brainstorm them and find ways to do them better.Look at the basis of a technique,analyze,practice,spar,share,brainstorm with other martial artists (not all Kenpo heads only),repeat...and just like that we have a perpetually growing perpetually functional kenpo expression that is still tailored to literally each one of our own personal tastes.IT'S THIS RESULTING MODEL THAT I ENERGETICALLY RECOMMENDED TO BECOME THE IDEAL PHASE AND I STRENUOUSLY RECOMMENDED THIS TRAINING METHOD--basically the sparring lab in these scenarios--AS THE LITMUS TEST FOR THE VIABILITY OF ANY TECHNIQUE.Almost certainly,this approach was not used on DTS during its formulation and application stages.

Didn't Ed Parker say something like that? (Yes,that's a rhetorical question).Yet you might have thought that I'd blasphemed the Gods,from the responses I got from many quarters.Lol.

Anyway,the responses merely reenforced my belief in functionality.Which leads me to this post here in this thread.My video on DTS is only the 3rd of 5 videos that I'm putting out there; the first 2 videos cover hitting every area of the upper arm and the specific position that the attacker has to be in for the DTS to work as it's written in the "Ideal Phase",plus a whole host of responses that I have to those circumstances.I seek to apply modifications of DTS to every scenario: what if I weave like Frazier under the omg haymaker roundhouse punch/weapon/kick/whatever of doom that is coming at my head? What if it's coming at my body? What if he's mounted? What if we're fighting in a stairway? What if we're scrappin between parking stalls in a parking lot? See,most guys who throw the omg roundhouse haymker of doom have reason to believe that they'll hit you.YOU'RE CLOSE TO THEM ALREADY.You're closer still if they're taller than you and thus you're almost 100% certain to be hit by SOMETHING even in the "Ideal Phase".And the more skilled they are? The more dangerous the attack is.It's faster,sharper,comes in combinations,oftentimes by surprise...in other words? It's anything BUT ideal 95% of the time.And in other words? Only rigorous sparring can resolve this matter short of testing it out on the street or the local freakin FIGHT CLUB.Lol.

You CAN stop the attack exactly as scripted in the 5% and less of the time you're "fed" the "Ideal Phase" attack (usually by some guy you'd massacre without the specific need for the aid that DTS imparts,as DTS is a black belt IKCA technique and you can dispose of some yahoo who sucks and throws that punch with pretty much any Yellow Belt self-defense technique) if you are relatively the physical equal of your opponent.You will encounter significantly more difficulties for the most part if you're shorter,weaker,caught by surprise,outnumbered,tackled,or any combination thereof.So I say dispose of the nonfunctional "Ideal Phase" and use the Upgraded Kenpo model which is all functionality in all primary scenarios,because the Ugraded model covers the Ideal Phase too whereas the converse is most emphatically not the case.

There ya are.Sorry for the supa lengthy post.

With respect,

THE ATACX GYM


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## MJS

Ras,

Cant really add much more to what you've already said.  IMO, I think its very important to really understand what people are doing with the techs.  This is one of the main reasons why I would like to see the number of techs cut down.  IMO, I dont feel that you need 100+, extensions, to a) learn to defend yourself and b) to get all of the concepts, principles and ideas.  

I'd rather take a tech, say Attacking Mace, and drill the hell out of it, in a number of ways.  For example...alot of the techs are taught as a step thru punch.  Ok fine, train the tech that way.  Then, train it against a cross, learn to adjust your strikes to different areas, depending on how the person attacks, learn to use parts of the tech to create a 'new' tech, learn to defend against other attacks the guy may throw.  I recall one training session, my teacher and I were working headlock defenses.  I'd do the tech and gradually he'd start throwing other things into the mix.  He'd start to move, which would force me to compensate.  He'd throw punches with his other hand, which again, forced me to adapt and break away from the standard tech.  The list can go on and on.  I've done this with my students and its good to see them thinking outside of the box.  

I only know DTS from what I've read and saw, with your clip.  But yeah, ya gotta take it up a notch, past the ideal phase.  Are those guys doing that?  No idea, but hopefully they are.


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## ATACX GYM

I'm putting up more videos on my Channel guys,including the rest of the DTS technique.I include unscripted responses and sparring,and I show why the modifications that I have made WILL WORK under pressure.I didn't show the weapons variant because it was taking too long to load on Youtube,so I went with the shorter videos.Should be up today and tomorrow.I also showed how to use my variant of ATTACKING MACE while grappling.I did it this morning against a friend and talented purple belt in bjj,and now I demo'd what I did against my cousin Kent who's a talented kenpoist and wrestler.He's base is much more oriented toward kenpo,boxing,Korean kendo,and kali with some wrestling.


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## ATACX GYM

Yeah just checked all the videos are up.A little blurry but they're there.I do some light technical bareknuckle no protections sparring with DTS too; exactly like several "more senior instructors" than I (I am merely a 5th dan) said could NOT be done.But we found how to do so within 2 minutes of being introduced to the technique (after I made this assertion,other IKCA guys said that they DID spar with DTS...even when some of them previously stated that DTS doesn't lend itself to practices like sparring in the first place.And I then asked what made them think that they had any form of combat skill with DTS if they didn't spar with it,and how could they inculcate skill with DTS into THEIR STUDENTS if they DIDN'T SPAR with it.I meant this question then and now with the utmost respect but with unwavering rigor.I am unaware of any method whatsoever that imparts combative skill without combative practices like sparring.If they or you or anyone else that you know has such knowledge? Please share with me because I'd like my ignorance on this subject to be alleviated as much as possible).I also have a video showing ATTACKING MACE while grappling,as I submitted a bjj blue belt just shy of his purple belt with this approach.Hope you enjoy.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

5 Swords started as a count-drill, at the Crenshaw school... run by Mr. Sullivan. He knew 5S just fine. 

The missing component in DTS is related to a concept called, "Strike Manipulation", which is dependent on "Depth Penetration". If Osoto Gari is your end desire or final goal, then the missing link is the setup leading to it off a strike. 

"Ricocheting" (sp?) is another kenpo concept that cleans it up and make it work, nicely. Ricochet of the right hand contact into the backnuckle, so it skips off the block like skipping a rock across a pond. 'Target selection" = aim the backnuckle to the front half of the mandible, instead of towards the neck, and strike deeply and authoritatively enough to forcibly turn the guys head to his left, as if forcing him into a blindspot check. If your attacker is FORCED to turn his head sharply toward his left shoulder by the depth and direction of the strike, any left handed strikes will be positionally and mechanically inhibited. This means, he may still be able to throw that left, but it won't have any meat in it if his head has been shoved to look at his left shoulder with the right backfist.

Having "cancelled" the power in his left by cancelling his width zone with the depth of penetration and target selection of the right backfist, you have the time to set up and execute the Osoto. The misalignment created by the neck crank (via strike manipulation through the backnuckle that forcible cranks his face towards his left), will also jack up his ability to find his feet or waist to initiate a defense against the Osoto.

Once down, front stomp his grill, & go get lunch.

Kenpo techs are meant to demonstrate how an attacker is controlled through the physical application of C&P. Start with the C&P, and look for how they express themselves in the moves. If you start with the moves first, it will always be a swing-&-a-miss.

D.


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## yorkshirelad

MJS said:


> I'm not a huge fan of throws, for the simple fact that if they're not done right or quick enough, you could end up putting yourself in a worse position than you started in. I'd rather opt for sweeping the leg, if possible.


 
I was trying to tie in a throw at the end of the technique which would be more applicable than Osoto-gari. Kaiten-nage would not compromise your balance at all, and would flow straight into the technique. It could also position the opponant as a shield if a second attacker was to engage in any direction, resulting in the first opponant being thrown into the second. You may not be a fan of throws, but they are important in completing kenpo as an art.


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## yorkshirelad

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> Once down, front stomp his grill, & go get lunch.
> D.


Nice!


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## ATACX GYM

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> 5 Swords started as a count-drill, at the Crenshaw school... run by Mr. Sullivan. He knew 5S just fine.
> 
> The missing component in DTS is related to a concept called, "Strike Manipulation", which is dependent on "Depth Penetration". If Osoto Gari is your end desire or final goal, then the missing link is the setup leading to it off a strike.
> 
> "Ricocheting" (sp?) is another kenpo concept that cleans it up and make it work, nicely. Ricochet of the right hand contact into the backnuckle, so it skips off the block like skipping a rock across a pond. 'Target selection" = aim the backnuckle to the front half of the mandible, instead of towards the neck, and strike deeply and authoritatively enough to forcibly turn the guys head to his left, as if forcing him into a blindspot check. If your attacker is FORCED to turn his head sharply toward his left shoulder by the depth and direction of the strike, any left handed strikes will be positionally and mechanically inhibited. This means, he may still be able to throw that left, but it won't have any meat in it if his head has been shoved to look at his left shoulder with the right backfist.
> 
> Having "cancelled" the power in his left by cancelling his width zone with the depth of penetration and target selection of the right backfist, you have the time to set up and execute the Osoto. The misalignment created by the neck crank (via strike manipulation through the backnuckle that forcible cranks his face towards his left), will also jack up his ability to find his feet or waist to initiate a defense against the Osoto.
> 
> Once down, front stomp his grill, & go get lunch.
> 
> Kenpo techs are meant to demonstrate how an attacker is controlled through the physical application of C&P. Start with the C&P, and look for how they express themselves in the moves. If you start with the moves first, it will always be a swing-&-a-miss.
> 
> D.


 
I speedily came to much of these conclusions myself when I first read the write up,but it's good to see a person (whom I assume to be) a senior IKCA member and black belt speak so knowledgeably and reasonably about this particular technique.

My idea,as I stated previously and perhaps you weren't aware of,is to execute the primary movements of DTS (and whatever other technique I/we train) pretty much regardless of the (civilian) self-defense scenario I or my students or others observing might find our/themselves in. So I sought to apply the backfist and takedown to skilled opponents and not just in the circumstances called upon by the "Ideal Phase",and I sought to do this while sparring and facing resistance.The chaos of sparring immediately forced modifications in the technique,but I was already more than proficient in executing the movements and primary components of DTS as I saw it when faced with NON-IDEAL attacks (C&P,HWD manipulation,takedown/throw with osoto preferred but basically get him to the ground violently,stomptastic finish,sub,or escape) regardless of the circumstance.I did this against armed opponents too.

But thank you for the explanation,I learned something from it and I appreciate your post.

Oh,btw in closing I'd like to ask a question: What if something goes wrong with the execution? What happens if the block or the backfist or the osoto is thwarted? What happens if instead of stopping the bad guy's omg haymaker smashtastic hook of doom with the double inside block and stuff; what happens if we bob and weave under the hook and we run the whole series of techniques from OUTSIDE the arm? Is the technique in your opinion still DTS or is it something else? I am asking this with all due respect and I am genuinely interested in your response.Thanks ahead of time.

With respect,

THE ATACX GYM


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## ATACX GYM

yorkshirelad said:


> I was trying to tie in a throw at the end of the technique which would be more applicable than Osoto-gari. Kaiten-nage would not compromise your balance at all, and would flow straight into the technique. It could also position the opponant as a shield if a second attacker was to engage in any direction, resulting in the first opponant being thrown into the second. You may not be a fan of throws, but they are important in completing kenpo as an art.


 

I'm a major fan of throws.Major fan.I use a variant of Kaiten-nage (I oftentimes add a strike while passing under the opponent's arm,like a ridgehand to the groin;man that works wonders),and have been doing so for years.I actually spar with kaiten-nage all the time,and quite a few other aikido techniques.While weapons sparring,I regularly drill people with tenkans and irimi techniques.Yesterday I disarmed people all day during firearm disarming drills.Got shot a few times--not too often,but it happens pretty regularly during the month,like 5-6 times/month--but I was lots more successful when I added my throws,sweeps,displacments and wristlocks to my strikes and my hefty dose of running away.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

ATACX GYM said:


> I speedily came to much of these conclusions myself when I first read the write up,but it's good to see a person (whom I assume to be) a senior IKCA member and black belt speak so knowledgeably and reasonably about this particular technique.
> 
> My idea,as I stated previously and perhaps you weren't aware of,is to execute the primary movements of DTS (and whatever other technique I/we train) pretty much regardless of the (civilian) self-defense scenario I or my students or others observing might find our/themselves in. So I sought to apply the backfist and takedown to skilled opponents and not just in the circumstances called upon by the "Ideal Phase",and I sought to do this while sparring and facing resistance.The chaos of sparring immediately forced modifications in the technique,but I was already more than proficient in executing the movements and primary components of DTS as I saw it when faced with NON-IDEAL attacks (C&P,HWD manipulation,takedown/throw with osoto preferred but basically get him to the ground violently,stomptastic finish,sub,or escape) regardless of the circumstance.I did this against armed opponents too.
> 
> But thank you for the explanation,I learned something from it and I appreciate your post.
> 
> Oh,btw in closing I'd like to ask a question: What if something goes wrong with the execution? What happens if the block or the backfist or the osoto is thwarted? What happens if instead of stopping the bad guy's omg haymaker smashtastic hook of doom with the double inside block and stuff; what happens if we bob and weave under the hook and we run the whole series of techniques from OUTSIDE the arm? Is the technique in your opinion still DTS or is it something else? I am asking this with all due respect and I am genuinely interested in your response.Thanks ahead of time.
> 
> With respect,
> 
> THE ATACX GYM


 
I would offer this (even though some may find it abrasive): If you are trying to execute a technique in the Ideal Phase against *any* incoming attack, you have missed the point of kenpo entirely.

Mr. Parker was a big fan of music and musicianship as an analogy/metaphor. One learns music by learning the language (ABCDEFG, treble, base, pianissimo, forte, 3/4 and 4/4 timing), learning the keyboard if they are a pianist, reading music, etc. One develops the skills of tickling the ivories by spending hours running scales. One learns which notes go together well -- and which don't -- by learning to play (from the ideal phase of the sheet music) classics. Bach; Beethoven; mebbe get some jazz guys in there too as your tastes start looking outside the vanilla box. 

But when you pack up your keyboard and head to a jam session, and are in the middle of a rhapsodic riff, you don't go back to running scales or playing Ode to Joy in up-tempo. You freestyle; you take the knowledge you have learned, the skills you have developed, assess the key and skill levels of the other musicians you are jamming with, and go off on a solo that fits the situation.

One should never try to pull off DTS, or any other technique. One should have learned, by drilling it, position recognition for setting up into an Osoto, and how to insert a strike into the setup. Think about all the things you would get eliminated from a judo match for if you did them. What if you developed this really great setup into seoinage... once in gripping range, you busted the other guy in the nuts with a knee, freed one hand just long enough to stick a finger in his eye, regained your grip, then elbow smashed him in the throat. THEN threw him. Well... that's kenpo. Put them together and rehearse it as a sequence, and it's a kenpo technique.

Thing most folks miss is... lets say you're in a brawl now, and wanna seoinage the guy. But the knee you usually bust him in the balls with isn't a good positional choice, and the hand you usually use to finger poke him is occupied with something else. Improv time. Poke him with the other hand, elbow smash him in the throat as a form of kuzushi to tip him into one corner for an off-balance, then knee him in the nuts on the way to the seoinage. 

The techniques are not meant to be done the way they are written. They are written that way to teach the student how certain moves fit and complement each other better than others from specific positional constraints. If you duck under the right, AWESOME!! Crack him in the head, kidneys, spine, or back of the knee with someother really hard hit, shoot on his ***, and dump him with another throw. If you had good training and a good instructor, you will spot targets on the hand, wrist, elbow, biceps and ribs as his arm swings over your head, and clip at one or more of them as a "take that home with ya" parting gift. Then, maybe thwack him on another target, depending on what you see. But you learned the targets -- and how to look for them -- by drilling techniques. You learned that dropping a hammerfist with some downward clipping spin on it onto that kidney that is now right next to you causes more stuff to go wrong for the bad guy, because you drilled it in a technique that had that hammewrfist in it. You knew to blow that near leg out with a side thrust kick, because you trained it a bunch in Leaping Crane. Then you abandoned Leaping Crane, and put his neck in a super tight hadakajime and squeeze until stuff starts squirting out of his ears, because you trained that heavily in BJJ. BUT!!! you avoid taking him all the way to mata leon, because he has some buddies a couple yards away. So you quick-contract your forearm into his throat to start him choking on a muscle spasm (then shove him forward to the gorund to either smash his face or cause him to put his hands out to stop his fall, putting him in a 4-point position), because you're gonna need your hands free for his friends that are walking up to help him.

It's all a freestyle jam once the SHTF. But the skills you use in the jam were developed training the techs.

I play once in a while with my buddies in Nor Cal, all of whom are competitive judoka from the well-known San Jose state team, from USJA, Kodenkan schools, etc. We do stuff that's not allowed in a match. Not just the dirty wrestling (grinding kimonos across open cuts and such), but striking while on the way to a setup. Meaning, as you step to Osoto, use that knee and drive it into his quads or nuts or hip bone and keep pushing until you break through to the other side of his body where you finally use it for the trip. Vertical uppercut him in the floating ribs before gripping his gi low, and see if you cant seal his breath before launching him.

DTS, in my opinion, is just there to indroduce dirty judo to a bunch of kenpo guys who may have never been shown the throw before, and if they have, are too nice about how they do it. When I do seminars or classes, I ask the question, "What does (insert the name of any technique) teach us?" Typically, people respond with the moves. "DTS teachs us the double block and backnuckle as a setup to an osoto", or some such.

I would argue, "No. It doesn't. It teaches us something judo and aikijujutsu guys already know about throws, and that is... they go better if you soften the guy up a bit first by beating the crap out of him a little, before trying to toss him anywhere." Then I give them homework that requires them to think about the idea behind the technique, and globalize the idea into a wider range of skills. "Pick 3 more throws, break off with a partner, and come up with some good inserts that recieve an attack -- any attack -- then soften the guy up, then throw him, then finish him. You have 15 minutes, then will be expected to demo your creations for the rest of the class from the front. Ready? Go."

Now we're not teaching them a technique. We are teaching them to think, along a theme. Which is what the techniques are supposed to prompt in the first place.

Windy answer. Hope it helped.

D.


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## yorkshirelad

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> DTS, in my opinion, is just there to indroduce dirty judo to a bunch of kenpo guys who may have never been shown the throw before, and if they have, are too nice about how they do it.
> D.


I think you're right about that Dave, but it's an extremely flawed technique. If techniques are words of motion, then this represents extremely poor spelling. Everything from the double block, to the expectation that Osoto-Gari will work from that position is wrong.

I agree that we should be drilling our techniques in order to attain an instinctive response, but drilling techniques such as this is damn right dangerous.


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## punisher73

yorkshirelad said:


> I think you're right about that Dave, but it's an extremely flawed technique. If techniques are words of motion, then this represents extremely poor spelling. Everything from the double block, to the expectation that Osoto-Gari will work from that position is wrong.
> 
> I agree that we should be drilling our techniques in order to attain an instinctive response, but drilling techniques such as this is damn right dangerous.


 
First, can explain what you think the attack is in Dropping the Storm? Then what specifically do you find wrong with the technique?

Most of the problem is that no one on here has described what the attack is in Dropping the Storm.  The attack is meant for a huge roundhouse punch meant to take your head off that has enough body momentum behind it to bring the attacker's right side forward with it, so his right foot is forward as well.

Next, in the video of DTS.  The defense is shown incorrectly.  As shown in the IKCA, the defense is a block with your left hand to the attacker's wrist as you hammer the bicep with your right hand.  The right hand transitions in a teardrop path into the backfist, which is meant to turn the attacker's head and momentarily stun him.  Then after making contact with the backfist you slam your palm onto the attacker's shoulder and secure the grip as you anchor your elbow, which checks his movement and also pulls him off balance as you enter for the reap.  Left foot adjust for depth if needed, and then you execute the reap.


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## MJS

yorkshirelad said:


> I was trying to tie in a throw at the end of the technique which would be more applicable than Osoto-gari. Kaiten-nage would not compromise your balance at all, and would flow straight into the technique. It could also position the opponant as a shield if a second attacker was to engage in any direction, resulting in the first opponant being thrown into the second. You may not be a fan of throws, but they are important in completing kenpo as an art.


 
I agree, it would help complete the circle, so to speak.  I was simply saying that like anything, if something fails, we need to have plan b.  As long as when throw a fails, you can transition to throw b or something else, then by all means, throw away.


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## yorkshirelad

punisher73 said:


> First, can explain what you think the attack is in Dropping the Storm? Then what specifically do you find wrong with the technique?


 
 You answered in the next paragraph. The attack is "a huge roundhouse punch".



punisher73 said:


> Then what specifically do you find wrong with the technique?


 
I find all Kenpo techniques that require the defender to turn his back against his opponant's left side flawed. The technique then requires the opponant's momentum to magically stop when the block connects. I think Shiho -Nage would be a far more effective tool in the case, if the arm is blocked in this manner (It shouldn't be blocked in this manner). If a backfist was performed, then Shiho-Nage tenkan would suffice.

DTS would probably work agaist an uprooted tree. Block a branch, back fist the trunk and then sweep the remaining roots using Osot-Gari. Most people actually move when they've been punched in the face.


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## punisher73

yorkshirelad said:


> You answered in the next paragraph. The attack is "a huge roundhouse punch".
> 
> 
> 
> I find all Kenpo techniques that require the defender to turn his back against his opponant's left side flawed. The technique then requires the opponant's momentum to magically stop when the block connects. I think Shiho -Nage would be a far more effective tool in the case, if the arm is blocked in this manner (It shouldn't be blocked in this manner). If a backfist was performed, then Shiho-Nage tenkan would suffice.
> 
> DTS would probably work agaist an uprooted tree. Block a branch, back fist the trunk and then sweep the remaining roots using Osot-Gari. Most people actually move when they've been punched in the face.


 
No, the technique does not magically require the momentum to stop.  In fact, when you strike in that way, the attacker's arm will stop but his body/shoulder will continue in the path of the arc.  This does alot of stuff that prohibits an immediate follow up with the left (especially since the left shoulder/arm is rotating in the opposite direction).  There is no punch to the face, and I would agree most people do move when punched in the face.  A backfist in this case moves the head to the side (reread Kembudo-Kai Kempoka's post) towards his left hand, again further negating an effective and immediate follow up by the attacker.

Why in your opinion should the arm not be blocked this way?


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## Touch Of Death

yorkshirelad said:


> You answered in the next paragraph. The attack is "a huge roundhouse punch".
> 
> 
> 
> I find all Kenpo techniques that require the defender to turn his back against his opponant's left side flawed. The technique then requires the opponant's momentum to magically stop when the block connects. I think Shiho -Nage would be a far more effective tool in the case, if the arm is blocked in this manner (It shouldn't be blocked in this manner). If a backfist was performed, then Shiho-Nage tenkan would suffice.
> 
> DTS would probably work agaist an uprooted tree. Block a branch, back fist the trunk and then sweep the remaining roots using Osot-Gari. Most people actually move when they've been punched in the face.


You get inside the rotation. No Magick.
Sean


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## yorkshirelad

punisher73 said:


> Why in your opinion should the arm not be blocked this way?


I've already told you, it leaves your rear dangerously unprotected. Would someone who is used to getting punched, like a good thai boxer ever use a double lock in this way?No! Why? Because he knows he would get his *** handed to him. Would the same Thai boxer use a downward block against a front kick? No! Why? Because he knows he would get his *** handed to him in the follow up. Apparently Atacx has used this technique over a thousand times in one day while sparring. All I cn say is,he must've been sparring Stephen Hawkins


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## ATACX GYM

yorkshirelad said:


> I've already told you, it leaves your rear dangerously unprotected. Would someone who is used to getting punched, like a good thai boxer ever use a double lock in this way?No! Why? Because he knows he would get his *** handed to him. Would the same Thai boxer use a downward block against a front kick? No! Why? Because he knows he would get his *** handed to him in the follow up. Apparently Atacx has used this technique over a thousand times in one day while sparring. All I cn say is,he must've been sparring Stephen Hawkins


 

Trust me brutha,I have already had this discussion and it's very interesting.I sparred with it,as my videos prove.The bottom line? Punisher73 is right in a very specific regard: IF you are faced with someone who throws THAT EXACT omg whompalicious roundhouse of doom at you AND steps through with the right leg? The technique as written WORKS PERFECTLY.

The problem,however,is EXACTLY what you've noted,yorkshirelad: that exact sequence of technique almost never happens period even from unskilled people...and it is almost a 100% guaranteed likelihood that it will NEVER happen from ANYONE who's trained ANYTHING with ANY REAL SKILL AT ALL.Therefore,in the real world,the functionality of DTS is limited to ONLY the "Ideal Phase". My idea is to REPLACE this "Ideal Phase" with a "FUNCTIONAL Phase" that allows maximum performance by incorporating the primary "what-if" scenarios we find in civilian self-defense ranges (which again,are: long weapons range,kickboxing/standing,Clinch,Up-Seated where one party is standing the other is seated,Seated-Seated where both parties are seated,Up-Down where one party is grounded the other is not,Ground-ground where both parties are grounded,Multifight,Armed Variants of all of the above,Escape from all of the above,Rescue innocents/property/loved ones from all of the above,Rescue and Escape from all of the above) and rigorously test EACH TECHNIQUE SPARRING AGAINST EACH OF THESE SCENARIOS BEFORE BEFORE BEFORE BEFORE TEACHING THEM TO STUDENTS.

The results will be a very very obviously functional model that our students and other teachers will adapt to themselves anyway (as they should).But there will be NO DOUBT that the technique works.Could you imagine a boxing coach or Navy SEAL instructor going through all these histrionics about music and ideal phases? Truth is THEY WILL TEACH YOU WHAT WORKS NOW.As they SHOULD.Btw,the Ideal Phase has extremely limited functionality so Position Recognition is almost certain to fail in the real world because the Ideal Phase DOESN'T PRACTICE real world positions SO THEY WON'T RECOGNIZE IT.That's just true,and we need to acknowledge that and make the adjustments.Period point blank.

And I mean that with ultimate respect,punisher73 and the other very knowledgeable poster whose name escapes me but wrote an excellent response using music as metaphor and adding the fact that GGMEP loved music.


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## punisher73

yorkshirelad said:


> I've already told you, it leaves your rear dangerously unprotected. Would someone who is used to getting punched, like a good thai boxer ever use a double lock in this way?No! Why? Because he knows he would get his *** handed to him. *Would the same Thai boxer use a downward block against a front kick?* No! Why? Because he knows he would get his *** handed to him in the follow up. Apparently Atacx has used this technique over a thousand times in one day while sparring. All I cn say is,he must've been sparring Stephen Hawkins


 
OK, we can agree to disagree then.  This technique is designed to show a response to a specific attack to neutralize it.  There are other techniques in the system that show other ways to deal with a roundhouse attack that doesn't "turn your back to his left".

What amazes me, is I've seen this same defense in some the FMA's.  Think they would use it when defending against a knife if it was such a crappy defense?

Video showing the downblock as practiced in Muay Boran before it became a ring sport (muay thai).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCyD0q7a4GU&feature=related


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## ATACX GYM

yorkshirelad said:


> I've already told you, it leaves your rear dangerously unprotected. Would someone who is used to getting punched, like a good thai boxer ever use a double lock in this way?No! Why? Because he knows he would get his *** handed to him. Would the same Thai boxer use a downward block against a front kick? No! Why? Because he knows he would get his *** handed to him in the follow up. Apparently Atacx has used this technique over a thousand times in one day while sparring. All I cn say is,he must've been sparring Stephen Hawkins


 

I used the technique over a thousand times and was in dire straits abouta thousand times in just the space of a day or two.I wish I WAS sparring Stephen Hawkins,because he wouldn't've kneed,swept,punched,tackled,threw,clinched,scrambled,tripped,or gone for weapons spontaneously at all...much less with the speed skill zest knowledge perception experience talent and athletic ability approaching anything that my sparring partners display.Lol.

However,Thai boxers use both the double block high and low vs power attacks and so have I.It works.I just don't do it in this DTS scenario of the wtfpwnage whomptastic roundhouse hook from hell because I've found it to be highly unlikely that anyone I'll face will feed me the perfect Ideal Phase attack that allows me to apply DTS without any problems whatsoever.Instead,as my videos demonstrate,I've found a very functional and effective way to execute these techniques vs skilled resistant opposition no matter what they do.Armed or not.Multifights or not.


----------



## yorkshirelad

punisher73 said:


> What amazes me, is I've seen this same defense in some the FMA's. Think they would use it when defending against a knife if it was such a crappy defense?


 
To tell you the truth, yes, I think they would! Whe dealing with knife defense the rules change as far as I'm concerned. At that point the whole defense become a question of damage limitation, so my focus becomes my exit and if there is no alternative my focus becomes the knife itself. If this is the case, a control of the wrist on the inside is a viable technique.



punisher73 said:


> Video showing the downblock as practiced in Muay Boran before it became a ring sport (muay thai).
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCyD0q7a4GU&feature=related


 
Again, the block is dangerously flawed. This is Muay Boran. If a practitioner of Muay Thai uses this block in the ring , it would be a rare occurance or the fighter would be a beginner who was probably trained in another system. Trust me I've learned the hard way by trying to pull off down ward blocks while sparring experienced Thai fighters.

On the other hand, I'm sure there are some people who can pull off almost any technique. I would never advocate an aerial ax kick, in any situation. I was watching Mr. White's new DVD a few weeks ago (excellent training video btw) and saw Jamie Matthews pull this off with success in a kickboxing tournament. Mr. Matthews is extremely talented, he is the exeption rather than the rule.


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## yorkshirelad

ATACX GYM said:


> I used the technique over a thousand times and was in dire straits abouta thousand times in just the space of a day or two.I wish I WAS sparring Stephen Hawkins,because he wouldn't've kneed,swept,punched,tackled,threw,clinched,scrambled,tripped,or gone for weapons spontaneously at all...much less with the speed skill zest knowledge perception experience talent and athletic ability approaching anything that my sparring partners display.Lol.
> .


Thanks for seeing the funny side!


----------



## Blindside

punisher73 said:


> What amazes me, is I've seen this same defense in some the FMA's. Think they would use it when defending against a knife if it was such a crappy defense?


 
I have certainly seen it, but at least in the FMA I learned it was a "oh crap, I am so far behind on time that I don't even have time to move, must stop knife from cutting me, get block up" and the risk from the other (potentially knife wielding) hand is just what i have to accept so I don't get hit by this one.  The other is that we don't often practice against giant haymaker knife attacks because our assumption is a trained, skilled attacker, one who won't likely give you such an opportunity.  Basically, if you can do anything else, you do it.  Mostly I show that defense from the attackers viewpoint of how to completely mess up the defender, it isn't something we want to encourage.


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## ATACX GYM

Blindside said:


> I have certainly seen it, but at least in the FMA I learned it was a "oh crap, I am so far behind on time that I don't even have time to move, must stop knife from cutting me, get block up" and the risk from the other (potentially knife wielding) hand is just what i have to accept so I don't get hit by this one. The other is that we don't often practice against giant haymaker knife attacks because our assumption is a trained, skilled attacker, one who won't likely give you such an opportunity. Basically, if you can do anything else, you do it. Mostly I show that defense from the attackers viewpoint of how to completely mess up the defender, it isn't something we want to encourage.


 

This is also what I have learned via stick and knife fighting.


----------



## ATACX GYM

yorkshirelad said:


> To tell you the truth, yes, I think they would! Whe dealing with knife defense the rules change as far as I'm concerned. At that point the whole defense become a question of damage limitation, so my focus becomes my exit and if there is no alternative my focus becomes the knife itself. If this is the case, a control of the wrist on the inside is a viable technique.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, the block is dangerously flawed. This is Muay Boran. If a practitioner of Muay Thai uses this block in the ring , it would be a rare occurance or the fighter would be a beginner who was probably trained in another system. Trust me I've learned the hard way by trying to pull off down ward blocks while sparring experienced Thai fighters.
> 
> On the other hand, I'm sure there are some people who can pull off almost any technique. I would never advocate an aerial ax kick, in any situation. I was watching Mr. White's new DVD a few weeks ago (excellent training video btw) and saw Jamie Matthews pull this off with success in a kickboxing tournament. Mr. Matthews is extremely talented, he is the exeption rather than the rule.


 

I pulled off a jumping switch-axe kick in sparring and in tournaments several times.Would I call it a high percentage technique? NOPE.I agree with ya here man.However,the low blocks and whatnot are highly effective,they're just far better for very close range combat and stuff like blocking people from snatching your wallet.They also have the distinct advantage of not giving a larger taller opponent the advantage of siezing your shin/knee/leg (which most of us MT guys use to check a kick) than your arm.You're more likely to retain your balance with both feet on the ground than you are with one leg off the ground.

There are pro's and con's for each side of this argument.Me? I use the blocks shown in this video when in very close range and/or limited space and combine it with evasive body movements.


----------



## yorkshirelad

ATACX GYM said:


> I pulled off a jumping switch-axe kick in sparring and in tournaments several times.Would I call it a high percentage technique? NOPE.I agree with ya here man.However,the low blocks and whatnot are highly effective,they're just far better for very close range combat and stuff like blocking people from snatching your wallet.They also have the distinct advantage of not giving a larger taller opponent the advantage of siezing your shin/knee/leg (which most of us MT guys use to check a kick) than your arm.You're more likely to retain your balance with both feet on the ground than you are with one leg off the ground.
> .


Yes, as I said the downward block against a front kick is what I advise against. There are a few examples where the downward block may be effective. Downward blocks against kicks are suicide when considering the follow up of the opponant. They really should not be taught this way. Being the dense crettin that I am, it took me several days to get out of this habit and I'm sure I lost a good few brain cells over it.


----------



## jks9199

punisher73 said:


> OK, we can agree to disagree then.  This technique is designed to show a response to a specific attack to neutralize it.  There are other techniques in the system that show other ways to deal with a roundhouse attack that doesn't "turn your back to his left".
> 
> What amazes me, is I've seen this same defense in some the FMA's.  Think they would use it when defending against a knife if it was such a crappy defense?
> 
> Video showing the downblock as practiced in Muay Boran before it became a ring sport (muay thai).
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCyD0q7a4GU&feature=related


Is it possible that Dropping the Storm is also designed to show and teach an underlying principle or strategy as much as the specific response to a roundhouse bomb like that?  Just food for thought...  but something I've noticed when I look at many "strange" Kenpo techniques.


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## ATACX GYM

jks9199 said:


> Is it possible that Dropping the Storm is also designed to show and teach an underlying principle or strategy as much as the specific response to a roundhouse bomb like that? Just food for thought... but something I've noticed when I look at many "strange" Kenpo techniques.


 

First off? Love the quotes in your sig.

And it's possible that DTS may also be designed to teach an underlying principle or strategy but there's a muuuch better way to do it.Basically,any idea that follows the "Ideal Phase" technique is bankrupt due to the fact that the "Ideal Phase" is nonfunctional or very barely functional in practically every regard.Functional strategies and principles require a largely functional base.The Ideal Phase lacks functionality,and therefore functionally fails at conveying underlying principles and strategies.


----------



## MJS

ATACX GYM said:


> Trust me brutha,I have already had this discussion and it's very interesting.I sparred with it,as my videos prove.The bottom line? Punisher73 is right in a very specific regard: IF you are faced with someone who throws THAT EXACT omg whompalicious roundhouse of doom at you AND steps through with the right leg? The technique as written WORKS PERFECTLY.
> 
> The problem,however,is EXACTLY what you've noted,yorkshirelad: that exact sequence of technique almost never happens period even from unskilled people...and it is almost a 100% guaranteed likelihood that it will NEVER happen from ANYONE who's trained ANYTHING with ANY REAL SKILL AT ALL.Therefore,in the real world,the functionality of DTS is limited to ONLY the "Ideal Phase". My idea is to REPLACE this "Ideal Phase" with a "FUNCTIONAL Phase" that allows maximum performance by incorporating the primary "what-if" scenarios we find in civilian self-defense ranges (which again,are: long weapons range,kickboxing/standing,Clinch,Up-Seated where one party is standing the other is seated,Seated-Seated where both parties are seated,Up-Down where one party is grounded the other is not,Ground-ground where both parties are grounded,Multifight,Armed Variants of all of the above,Escape from all of the above,Rescue innocents/property/loved ones from all of the above,Rescue and Escape from all of the above) and rigorously test EACH TECHNIQUE SPARRING AGAINST EACH OF THESE SCENARIOS BEFORE BEFORE BEFORE BEFORE TEACHING THEM TO STUDENTS.
> 
> The results will be a very very obviously functional model that our students and other teachers will adapt to themselves anyway (as they should).But there will be NO DOUBT that the technique works.Could you imagine a boxing coach or Navy SEAL instructor going through all these histrionics about music and ideal phases? Truth is THEY WILL TEACH YOU WHAT WORKS NOW.As they SHOULD.Btw,the Ideal Phase has extremely limited functionality so Position Recognition is almost certain to fail in the real world because the Ideal Phase DOESN'T PRACTICE real world positions SO THEY WON'T RECOGNIZE IT.That's just true,and we need to acknowledge that and make the adjustments.Period point blank.
> 
> And I mean that with ultimate respect,punisher73 and the other very knowledgeable poster whose name escapes me but wrote an excellent response using music as metaphor and adding the fact that GGMEP loved music.


 
So, all that being said, this tells me that....

a) As Dave said, we'll never pull off an IP technique.  Which leads me to say once again, that this is a perfect reason why we dont need 100+ techs to tech us how to defend ourselves.  But thats another thread. 

b) the techs are simply a model and the student needs to figure out how to apply things from that model.

c) but if the odds of someone attacking in the IP is slim to none, why teach the IP in the first place, when you can do as Ras suggests, as just replace the IP with something functional from the get go.

d) we probably could teach the IP as a base, to give the student an example, but instead of harping on that IP forever, start having them explore and breakdown the tech, adding in various methods of attacking, thus coming up with something functional.


----------



## ATACX GYM

MJS said:


> So, all that being said, this tells me that....
> 
> a) As Dave said, we'll never pull off an IP technique. Which leads me to say once again, that this is a perfect reason why we dont need 100+ techs to tech us how to defend ourselves. But thats another thread.
> 
> b) the techs are simply a model and the student needs to figure out how to apply things from that model.
> 
> c) but if the odds of someone attacking in the IP is slim to none, why teach the IP in the first place, when you can do as Ras suggests, as just replace the IP with something functional from the get go.
> 
> d) we probably could teach the IP as a base, to give the student an example, but instead of harping on that IP forever, start having them explore and breakdown the tech, adding in various methods of attacking, thus coming up with something functional.


 

Beautifully summed up,brutha


----------



## punisher73

Blindside said:


> *I have certainly seen it, but at least in the FMA I learned it was a "oh crap, I am so far behind on time that I don't even have time to move, must stop knife from cutting me, get block up" and the risk from the other (potentially knife wielding) hand is just what i have to accept so I don't get hit by this one.* The other is that we don't often practice against giant haymaker knife attacks because our assumption is a trained, skilled attacker, one who won't likely give you such an opportunity. Basically, if you can do anything else, you do it. Mostly I show that defense from the attackers viewpoint of how to completely mess up the defender, it isn't something we want to encourage.


 
  Now, you understand more of the scenario DTS is based on.  Again, there are other defenses against a roundhouse shown that involve other solutions that don't do the double block.  This is designed exactly as an "oh crap, if I don't do this, I'm gonna get my head taken off"


----------



## marlon

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> I would offer this (even though some may find it abrasive): If you are trying to execute a technique in the Ideal Phase against *any* incoming attack, you have missed the point of kenpo entirely.
> 
> Mr. Parker was a big fan of music and musicianship as an analogy/metaphor. One learns music by learning the language (ABCDEFG, treble, base, pianissimo, forte, 3/4 and 4/4 timing), learning the keyboard if they are a pianist, reading music, etc. One develops the skills of tickling the ivories by spending hours running scales. One learns which notes go together well -- and which don't -- by learning to play (from the ideal phase of the sheet music) classics. Bach; Beethoven; mebbe get some jazz guys in there too as your tastes start looking outside the vanilla box.
> 
> But when you pack up your keyboard and head to a jam session, and are in the middle of a rhapsodic riff, you don't go back to running scales or playing Ode to Joy in up-tempo. You freestyle; you take the knowledge you have learned, the skills you have developed, assess the key and skill levels of the other musicians you are jamming with, and go off on a solo that fits the situation.
> 
> One should never try to pull off DTS, or any other technique. One should have learned, by drilling it, position recognition for setting up into an Osoto, and how to insert a strike into the setup. Think about all the things you would get eliminated from a judo match for if you did them. What if you developed this really great setup into seoinage... once in gripping range, you busted the other guy in the nuts with a knee, freed one hand just long enough to stick a finger in his eye, regained your grip, then elbow smashed him in the throat. THEN threw him. Well... that's kenpo. Put them together and rehearse it as a sequence, and it's a kenpo technique.
> 
> Thing most folks miss is... lets say you're in a brawl now, and wanna seoinage the guy. But the knee you usually bust him in the balls with isn't a good positional choice, and the hand you usually use to finger poke him is occupied with something else. Improv time. Poke him with the other hand, elbow smash him in the throat as a form of kuzushi to tip him into one corner for an off-balance, then knee him in the nuts on the way to the seoinage.
> 
> The techniques are not meant to be done the way they are written. They are written that way to teach the student how certain moves fit and complement each other better than others from specific positional constraints. If you duck under the right, AWESOME!! Crack him in the head, kidneys, spine, or back of the knee with someother really hard hit, shoot on his ***, and dump him with another throw. If you had good training and a good instructor, you will spot targets on the hand, wrist, elbow, biceps and ribs as his arm swings over your head, and clip at one or more of them as a "take that home with ya" parting gift. Then, maybe thwack him on another target, depending on what you see. But you learned the targets -- and how to look for them -- by drilling techniques. You learned that dropping a hammerfist with some downward clipping spin on it onto that kidney that is now right next to you causes more stuff to go wrong for the bad guy, because you drilled it in a technique that had that hammewrfist in it. You knew to blow that near leg out with a side thrust kick, because you trained it a bunch in Leaping Crane. Then you abandoned Leaping Crane, and put his neck in a super tight hadakajime and squeeze until stuff starts squirting out of his ears, because you trained that heavily in BJJ. BUT!!! you avoid taking him all the way to mata leon, because he has some buddies a couple yards away. So you quick-contract your forearm into his throat to start him choking on a muscle spasm (then shove him forward to the gorund to either smash his face or cause him to put his hands out to stop his fall, putting him in a 4-point position), because you're gonna need your hands free for his friends that are walking up to help him.
> 
> It's all a freestyle jam once the SHTF. But the skills you use in the jam were developed training the techs.
> 
> I play once in a while with my buddies in Nor Cal, all of whom are competitive judoka from the well-known San Jose state team, from USJA, Kodenkan schools, etc. We do stuff that's not allowed in a match. Not just the dirty wrestling (grinding kimonos across open cuts and such), but striking while on the way to a setup. Meaning, as you step to Osoto, use that knee and drive it into his quads or nuts or hip bone and keep pushing until you break through to the other side of his body where you finally use it for the trip. Vertical uppercut him in the floating ribs before gripping his gi low, and see if you cant seal his breath before launching him.
> 
> DTS, in my opinion, is just there to indroduce dirty judo to a bunch of kenpo guys who may have never been shown the throw before, and if they have, are too nice about how they do it. When I do seminars or classes, I ask the question, "What does (insert the name of any technique) teach us?" Typically, people respond with the moves. "DTS teachs us the double block and backnuckle as a setup to an osoto", or some such.
> 
> I would argue, "No. It doesn't. It teaches us something judo and aikijujutsu guys already know about throws, and that is... they go better if you soften the guy up a bit first by beating the crap out of him a little, before trying to toss him anywhere." Then I give them homework that requires them to think about the idea behind the technique, and globalize the idea into a wider range of skills. "Pick 3 more throws, break off with a partner, and come up with some good inserts that recieve an attack -- any attack -- then soften the guy up, then throw him, then finish him. You have 15 minutes, then will be expected to demo your creations for the rest of the class from the front. Ready? Go."
> 
> Now we're not teaching them a technique. We are teaching them to think, along a theme. Which is what the techniques are supposed to prompt in the first place.
> 
> Windy answer. Hope it helped.
> 
> D.


 
I still have so much to learn, but it is certainly nice to hear that I have been teaching and training along the lines of such a knowledgeable and skilled kenpo senior

many thanks
Respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

marlon said:


> I still have so much to learn, but it is certainly nice to hear that I have been teaching and training along the lines of such a knowledgeable and skilled kenpo senior
> 
> many thanks
> Respectfully,
> Marlon


 
Thanks for the compliment, but I really don't consider myself a Senior. I'm just a silly man who has been doing this longer than he should have. 

I lifted these metaphors/analogies/ideas directly form Mr. Parkers' teachings. It's in his books, his videos, was in his lectures and lessons. Sadly, somehow, some buncha folks who spent way more time with him than I did, and did way more for him and the family than I ever did, still managed to miss these major points he reiterated time and again. 

The techniques are just there to show us what applying the concepts and principles to applications of the basics looks like in plausible scenario's. How to use what, under what contextual circumstances, for optimal effect. Never meant to get you through a fight as a "this response for that attack" gig... if you're kenpo fight lasts long enough to do a whole technique, then it's time to go back to solidifying the basics. 

If you're training along those lines, I'd say you are one of the few who "gets it".

Train well,

D.


----------



## ATACX GYM

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> Thanks for the compliment, but I really don't consider myself a Senior. I'm just a silly man who has been doing this longer than he should have.
> 
> I lifted these metaphors/analogies/ideas directly form Mr. Parkers' teachings. It's in his books, his videos, was in his lectures and lessons. Sadly, somehow, some buncha folks who spent way more time with him than I did, and did way more for him and the family than I ever did, still managed to miss these major points he reiterated time and again.
> 
> The techniques are just there to show us what applying the concepts and principles to applications of the basics looks like in plausible scenario's. How to use what, under what contextual circumstances, for optimal effect. Never meant to get you through a fight as a "this response for that attack" gig... if you're kenpo fight lasts long enough to do a whole technique, then it's time to go back to solidifying the basics.
> 
> If you're training along those lines, I'd say you are one of the few who "gets it".
> 
> Train well,
> 
> D.


 

Most of us agree with at least parts of this.However,one of the questions that I and others have asked centers upon the functionality of the IP (Ideal Phase).Since I too recall reading that GGMEP was giving examples of (what I suppose then were) plausible scenarios from which to practice and/or execute the 72 self-defense t echniques which form the spine of Kenpo,then we would be perfectly in line to upgrade those now largely passe method of expression for the (presumably) correct idea of combat functionally that somehow got mired in the disfunctional "Ideal Phase".So "upgrading" and "functionality" is directly in line with what GGMEP and other martial luminaries had in mind,right?

Sooo...how functional is one technique designed for one of the most rare of circumstances? A circumstance that you should long have had the functional skills to resolve well before you got your black belt.Say blue or purple at the latest? What spawned the need for such a specific technique? I think the specificity of DTS is more indicative of a flawed,dysfunctional MODEL which crafts almost 100% of the time similarly flawed,dysfunctional techniques.I think we should craft a model as functional as possible and use that for a base from which we train,and add whatever further more functional innovations that we can collectively come up with thereunto...instead of starting with an almost entirely dysfunctional base and muddle through from there.


----------



## marlon

ATACX GYM said:


> Most of us agree with at least parts of this.However,one of the questions that I and others have asked centers upon the functionality of the IP (Ideal Phase).Since I too recall reading that GGMEP was giving examples of (what I suppose then were) plausible scenarios from which to practice and/or execute the 72 self-defense t echniques which form the spine of Kenpo,then we would be perfectly in line to upgrade those now largely passe method of expression for the (presumably) correct idea of combat functionally that somehow got mired in the disfunctional "Ideal Phase".So "upgrading" and "functionality" is directly in line with what GGMEP and other martial luminaries had in mind,right?
> 
> Sooo...how functional is one technique designed for one of the most rare of circumstances? A circumstance that you should long have had the functional skills to resolve well before you got your black belt.Say blue or purple at the latest? What spawned the need for such a specific technique? I think the specificity of DTS is more indicative of a flawed,dysfunctional MODEL which crafts almost 100% of the time similarly flawed,dysfunctional techniques.I think we should craft a model as functional as possible and use that for a base from which we train,and add whatever further more functional innovations that we can collectively come up with thereunto...instead of starting with an almost entirely dysfunctional base and muddle through from there.


 
I study shaolin kempo not American Kenpo, but for the purposes of this discussion the differences are negligible.  The back bone of our system is 108 combinations or defense manouevers as they are called on the west coast.
The point I appreciated from our illustiuous and humble senior is this:  The backbone techniques are used to get the basics and flow into your system.  trained into your muscle memory from the IP to the point where we have developed enogh basics of positioning and alignment to survive the initial attack; that our response to the initial attack is such that our manipulation of the attacker begins on contact; that our bodies 
'recognize" that this piece of such and such attack fits here, which is followed up nicely by this move from the same technique or move X from a different technique (or form even); that our response flows in a logical and devasating manner until the threat is over.  The technique is un important during the encounter.  It is of extreme importance in training and perhaps even examination after the encounter.  We train the techniques in order to respond well, not in order to pull off a technique.  The IP is necessary to instill the right body mechanics, basics, and flow/thought/ response conditioning

Let me know if I am way off here

Respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## ATACX GYM

marlon said:


> I study shaolin kempo not American Kenpo, but for the purposes of this discussion the differences are negligible. The back bone of our system is 108 combinations or defense manouevers as they are called on the west coast.
> The point I appreciated from our illustiuous and humble senior is this: The backbone techniques are used to get the basics and flow into your system. trained into your muscle memory from the IP to the point where we have developed enogh basics of positioning and alignment to survive the initial attack; that our response to the initial attack is such that our manipulation of the attacker begins on contact; that our bodies
> 'recognize" that this piece of such and such attack fits here, which is followed up nicely by this move from the same technique or move X from a different technique (or form even); that our response flows in a logical and devasating manner until the threat is over. The technique is un important during the encounter. It is of extreme importance in training and perhaps even examination after the encounter. We train the techniques in order to respond well, not in order to pull off a technique. The IP is necessary to instill the right body mechanics, basics, and flow/thought/ response conditioning
> 
> Let me know if I am way off here
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon


 
I recognized the exact same thing,I even agree with the concept.The problem I have is that the IP is tremendously nonfunctional,so it CAN'T reach the desired goals that you cited in your posts in any way on a regular basis because it's not consistently functional and thus not consistently reliable.Therefore I have recommended that the IP be replaced wholly by a FM--functional model.The result is a "upgrade" to your martial arts performance.No need for flowery metaphor or long-winded discussion;you learn the technique realistically,practice it against real time resistance,and therefore can perform in the real world.Look at the performance mandate required for boxers,wrestlers,MT guys,Olympic tkd people on Olympic teams,SWAT team members,etc.Bottom line? There's no reason that we can't train with a performance first mentality and EVERY REASON that we SHOULD make speedy,practical,potent real world performance central to our martial path wherever it takes us.

There is nothing beneficial about the Ideal Phase,and a great deal that can be dangerous about it.Our students may think that they can actually defend themselves with these techniques and the vast majority of them will not be able to do so should they be called upon to use what they're shown in the IP.If they train functionally? The vast majority WILL be able to defend themselves AND enjoy the mental and spiritual benefits that martial training can offer.


----------



## marlon

Hmm. As I said, I am not an American kenpo practitioner, so I maybe understanding the terminology incorrectly and not understanding your practice.
So, let me explain in more detail my understanding and you can decide.
The value of the ideal phase is not only to have the student practice safely and gain confidence and muscle memory, it also allows for me as an instructor to re enforce the necessary basics.  Ramping it up too soon triggers fear based errors such as misalignment, too much speed and improper mechanics and poor stances.  Once these get not muscle memory they are very hard to dislodge.
I teach the attack " unrealistically" at first emphasizing all the basics I feel important including precision.  Then they practice lefty. Then without know if it will come left or right, then with movement so the attack comes at an unexpected time; then with the attacker working a second attack in there if possible ( it is the students job to respond in such a manner that the second attack is impossible)...
The time frame for the ramping it up is based on being slightly ahead of what the student is ready for in order to have his training pull her/ him to higher levels of proficiency.  But all this starts with the basics learned and trained with the IP.  
We also do reaction drills where the goal is the defend   yourself against a quick surprising aggressive attack.  Pull off a technique if you can but more importantly respond with the right mechanics.  This and a dragon circle often show me very easily where the student is in thier absorption of the basics.  Of course, then end goal is destructive flow without set techniques or a mishmash of parts.  I have often seen students pull off moves from a technique that they are many belts away from because where they were when X happened dictated the next move be Y = a move from an advanced technique or form coming out naturally
This is my understanding of the use of the IP and why I see it as essential.


----------



## marlon

Hopefully that was clear and please correct me where you see that I am in error or my limited understanding of American Kenpo is clouding my observations
Respectfully
Marlon


----------



## MJS

The IP, IMO, is designed to be a platform to build from.  Take the alphabet for example.  We have 26 letters.  We learn who to read, write and say those letters. We learn how to use those letters to form words, sentences, etc.  We have an endless list of ways to use those letters.  We learn some basic ways to use those letters, but we expand that list.

Same with the IP techs.  IMO, the IP are teaching 1 possible way to do something.  But unless everything goes exactly so, the IP wont work.  After that, my view is that we take bits and pieces from those techs, and form a response that fits whatever is happening to us at the moment.  

So, that brings the next question...why so many IP techs if what they teach wont work as taught.  My answer to that is 2 fold.  1) we could take a few punch techs to use as a base, and then begin to expand, in essance, creating our own technique.  2) we could totally abandon the IP techs, and teach the basics, basics being punches, kicks, blocks, etc.  From there, we drill the student on numerous ways to use those basics to defend themselves.  I've had students do tech lines.  During the line, I'll intentionally have the attacker throw an attack the student doesnt know a IP tech for.  So many times, the student gets that deer in the headlights look, and says that they dont know what to do. I tell them that they do know what to do.  I ask if they know how to punch, block and kick.  They say yes.  I say good, then do it.  Then the light goes on.   I dont care if the do Attacking Mace for the punch, or if they simply block the punch, and palm the guy in the face.  They defended themself right?  Mission accomplished. 

Look at a boxer.  They have a jab, cross, hook and uppercut.  They have preset punches they use for focus mit trainging.  But when they box, they do what they need to do, right?  

Some people tend, at least in my opinion, to put way too much focus on the IP techs, all 154 of them.  Why?  KISS is the way to go.  Keep It Short and Simple.   IMO, if someone needs 100+ preset, IP techs to figure out how to defend themselves, somethings seriously wrong.  Theres a shorter way to reach the end result.  Of course, we should still keep the concepts and principles that Kenpo teaches, but no, you dont need to be bound by something that you're probably not going to pull off anyways.


----------



## ATACX GYM

marlon said:


> Hopefully that was clear and please correct me where you see that I am in error or my limited understanding of American Kenpo is clouding my observations
> Respectfully
> Marlon


 

Marlon,your writing was very clear and very intelligent and I'm glad to be having this discussion with you.I think,however,that there is a consistent misunderstanding of the basic and crucial application of functional operation in its application to martial arts.At one point in your well written post,you indicated that ramping it up too soon could be detrimental in many ways to students: their technique,confidence,and well being could all suffer.Not to mention the overall control of the pacing etc. of the class from the instructor's perspective would be sacrificed.I totally agree there.

However,I'm not talking about Kenpo specifically,I'm talking about FUNCTIONAL V NONFUNCTIONAL METHODS.Allow me to illustrate via comparison:

Boxing,wrestling,MT,judoka,SWAT team members,Olympians,etc. all learn technique first.They learn proper technical application and repeat these movements usually solo sans any resistance until they have the rote muscle memory down.Then they move on to conditioning,and from there to live exercises.The live exercises also start at the lowest levels of intensity and then are ratcheted up as the students acquire the requisite skill confidence and knowledge until full on or nearly 100% live exercises are dealt with.Techniques are tweaked,corrections are made along the way...and then they repeat.The giant difference is that these functional warriors and athletes use drills and techniques that are specific to their environment.The boxer will not perform a robotic slow jab that's specifically designed to not even look like the kind of jab that a boxer will face in the ring or the street and then practice techniques that are not THE EXACT SAME OR VEEERRRY CLOSE TO THE EXACT SAME techniques they will use boxing or in an altercation. It will look like this:





 
Or like this:





 
Or like this:





 
Or like this:





 

You get the point.Sooo...stick disarms should NEVER look like this:





 
^^^That is horrifically dysfunctional and will get you beat up or worse.The Kenpo professors in this video can fight well and they don't use the techniques as shown in the video in self-defense encounters and that's my point.Never teach techniques that aren't universally applicable and which you don't use regularly yourself.Right off the bat,you should be practicing stick disarms that look like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJ9qQuq9xhM&feature=related

This is functional.You see the difference? Every concern of safety and proper technique and whatnot is addressed within the functional matrix,but UNLIKE the ideal phase or anything else dysfunctional...YOU WILL FIGHT USING THE TECHNIQUE EXACTLY AS YOU TRAINED IT AND IT WILL WORK.The key is IT WILL WORK. The ideal phase you can see by direct comparison and contrast has immediate functional problems and simply is clearly the poorer choice to make between the two because it's very likely to NOT work.Yes,I recognize that the video that I recommend is a scenario where both attacker and defender are armed whereas the first Casa de Kenpo video shows an unarmed v club attack,but the obvious functional difference between the two should be instantly apparent.

You should NOT havea 10th degree grandmaster tell you to train Alternating Maces in Kenpo and make it look like THIS:





 
When even a 5th dan like me can show you how to START training like THIS FROM DAY ONE (this is the first in a series of videos I have addressing Alternating Maces):





 
^^^This technique is MUCH better and MUCH MORE FUNCTIONAL than the other one.Notice how my sparring partner doesn't "pose" for me,he responds defensively which is one of the major justifications for the variant of the Alternating Maces that I use.

Attacking Mace should NOT look like this:





 
When you can train Attacking Mace faaaar more FUNCTIONALLY like THIS:





 




 
^^^Not only are these step-by-step methods shown that are functional,there are nonscripted attacks that are defended by Attacking Mace and there is sparring using Attacking Mace.I have never found a video other than mine that features LIVE SPARRING with SD techniques.None of the functional essentials are in the "ideal phase/method" of ANY martial art,unless the "functional method" is used exclusively because BEING FUNCTIONAL IS THE COMBAT IDEAL.Anything other than performance oriented combat functionality will LITERALLY induce lesser combat functionality or even combat dysfunction.

So train all our techniques against progressive resistance,but always have both the model of resistance and the techniques that we use be functional.Which bluntly means that we need to dispense with the so-called IP entirely.It best,it's significantly less functional than the real world functional model in EVERY regard: safety,teachability,acquistion of self-defense skills,etc.It's normally results in nonfunctional combatives.


----------



## ATACX GYM

MJS said:


> The IP, IMO, is designed to be a platform to build from. Take the alphabet for example. We have 26 letters. We learn who to read, write and say those letters. We learn how to use those letters to form words, sentences, etc. We have an endless list of ways to use those letters. We learn some basic ways to use those letters, but we expand that list.
> 
> Same with the IP techs. IMO, the IP are teaching 1 possible way to do something. But unless everything goes exactly so, the IP wont work. After that, my view is that we take bits and pieces from those techs, and form a response that fits whatever is happening to us at the moment.
> 
> So, that brings the next question...why so many IP techs if what they teach wont work as taught. My answer to that is 2 fold. 1) we could take a few punch techs to use as a base, and then begin to expand, in essance, creating our own technique. 2) we could totally abandon the IP techs, and teach the basics, basics being punches, kicks, blocks, etc. From there, we drill the student on numerous ways to use those basics to defend themselves. I've had students do tech lines. During the line, I'll intentionally have the attacker throw an attack the student doesnt know a IP tech for. So many times, the student gets that deer in the headlights look, and says that they dont know what to do. I tell them that they do know what to do. I ask if they know how to punch, block and kick. They say yes. I say good, then do it. Then the light goes on.  I dont care if the do Attacking Mace for the punch, or if they simply block the punch, and palm the guy in the face. They defended themself right? Mission accomplished.
> 
> Look at a boxer. They have a jab, cross, hook and uppercut. They have preset punches they use for focus mit trainging. But when they box, they do what they need to do, right?
> 
> Some people tend, at least in my opinion, to put way too much focus on the IP techs, all 154 of them. Why? KISS is the way to go. Keep It Short and Simple.  IMO, if someone needs 100+ preset, IP techs to figure out how to defend themselves, somethings seriously wrong. Theres a shorter way to reach the end result. Of course, we should still keep the concepts and principles that Kenpo teaches, but no, you dont need to be bound by something that you're probably not going to pull off anyways.


 
^^^agree almost 100% with this right here.


----------



## marlon

ATACX GYM said:


> Marlon,your writing was very clear and very intelligent and I'm glad to be having this discussion with you.I think,however,that there is a consistent misunderstanding of the basic and crucial application of functional operation in its application to martial arts.At one point in your well written post,you indicated that ramping it up too soon could be detrimental in many ways to students: their technique,confidence,and well being could all suffer.Not to mention the overall control of the pacing etc. of the class from the instructor's perspective would be sacrificed.I totally agree there.
> 
> However,I'm not talking about Kenpo specifically,I'm talking about FUNCTIONAL V NONFUNCTIONAL METHODS.Allow me to illustrate via comparison:
> 
> Boxing,wrestling,MT,judoka,SWAT team members,Olympians,etc. all learn technique first.They learn proper technical application and repeat these movements usually solo sans any resistance until they have the rote muscle memory down.Then they move on to conditioning,and from there to live exercises.The live exercises also start at the lowest levels of intensity and then are ratcheted up as the students acquire the requisite skill confidence and knowledge until full on or nearly 100% live exercises are dealt with.Techniques are tweaked,corrections are made along the way...and then they repeat.The giant difference is that these functional warriors and athletes use drills and techniques that are specific to their environment.The boxer will not perform a robotic slow jab that's specifically designed to not even look like the kind of jab that a boxer will face in the ring or the street and then practice techniques that are not THE EXACT SAME OR VEEERRRY CLOSE TO THE EXACT SAME techniques they will use boxing or in an altercation. It will look like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You get the point.Sooo...stick disarms should NEVER look like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ^^^That is horrifically dysfunctional and will get you beat up or worse.The Kenpo professors in this video can fight well and they don't use the techniques as shown in the video in self-defense encounters and that's my point.Never teach techniques that aren't universally applicable and which you don't use regularly yourself.Right off the bat,you should be practicing stick disarms that look like this:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJ9qQuq9xhM&feature=related
> 
> This is functional.You see the difference? Every concern of safety and proper technique and whatnot is addressed within the functional matrix,but UNLIKE the ideal phase or anything else dysfunctional...YOU WILL FIGHT USING THE TECHNIQUE EXACTLY AS YOU TRAINED IT AND IT WILL WORK.The key is IT WILL WORK. The ideal phase you can see by direct comparison and contrast has immediate functional problems and simply is clearly the poorer choice to make between the two because it's very likely to NOT work.Yes,I recognize that the video that I recommend is a scenario where both attacker and defender are armed whereas the first Casa de Kenpo video shows an unarmed v club attack,but the obvious functional difference between the two should be instantly apparent.
> 
> You should NOT havea 10th degree grandmaster tell you to train Alternating Maces in Kenpo and make it look like THIS:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When even a 5th dan like me can show you how to START training like THIS FROM DAY ONE (this is the first in a series of videos I have addressing Alternating Maces):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ^^^This technique is MUCH better and MUCH MORE FUNCTIONAL than the other one.Notice how my sparring partner doesn't "pose" for me,he responds defensively which is one of the major justifications for the variant of the Alternating Maces that I use.
> 
> Attacking Mace should NOT look like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When you can train Attacking Mace faaaar more FUNCTIONALLY like THIS:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ^^^Not only are these step-by-step methods shown that are functional,there are nonscripted attacks that are defended by Attacking Mace and there is sparring using Attacking Mace.I have never found a video other than mine that features LIVE SPARRING with SD techniques.None of the functional essentials are in the "ideal phase/method" of ANY martial art,unless the "functional method" is used exclusively because BEING FUNCTIONAL IS THE COMBAT IDEAL.Anything other than performance oriented combat functionality will LITERALLY induce lesser combat functionality or even combat dysfunction.
> 
> So train all our techniques against progressive resistance,but always have both the model of resistance and the techniques that we use be functional.Which bluntly means that we need to dispense with the so-called IP entirely.It best,it's significantly less functional than the real world functional model in EVERY regard: safety,teachability,acquistion of self-defense skills,etc.It's normally results in nonfunctional combatives.


 

I agree with much of what you have said on principle.  The way I use the base techniques (i guess compareable to your IP techniques) does not exclude the things benefits you speak of at all.  We are much closer to our attacker for most of our techniques than from what I saw on your vids.  techniques during sparring is a good idea.  One difficulty with it and the boxing comparision is the sport mentality associated with those activities that is not the same in a self defense situation.  A committed attacker out to do you real harm does not 'spar' as in kenpo or boxing.  Avoid confrontation as much as possible until you decide to commit to defense, then attack, attack to thier center, to their heart, attack to their stability, thourgh their defense attack to utterly crush them.  We train this as best we can with reaction drills and such.  However, this is firmly founded on the base of solid basics of alignment, movement, and realignment trained through the base techniques, from the idea phase all the way to the ramped up training.  Fear, adrenaline and ignorance very easily can cause a beginner to develop bad structural habits that may or may not be obvious for a while and then cause a collaspe of efficiency when confronted by a bigger faster angry attacker intent on tearing them appart.  Survive the initial attack is all structural, as is consistently effective response / execution of ones' skill, all structural.
btw the reaction drills are against any kind of attack delivered as unexpectedly as possible. The defender responds with, not getting hit (if they get hit continue anyway), and at least three follow up strikes doing everyhting they can to work their techniques into the drill.  The point, of course,is to survive the initial attack, respond with a continuous flow of attack to end the threat...these, they learn from the techniques and forms preformed "ideally" over and over and over again.
I see your point and agree with it to a certain extent, it is a question of how soon to go there that most concerns me.  agin, acknowledging that I do not come from an AK background and my understanding may be so way off that my points are not functional for you.

Respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## marlon

So, i just looked at your alternating maces series. good stuff. Something in the technique reminded me of our combination #3.





I show our version more in the ideal phase at the link above. But feel free to search for it elsewhere to get a more complete idea. I have torn my achilles, so, I cannot put anything up right now compareable to your excellent series. When I am up and about again i would love to exchange concepts through a video medium suc as youtube. If you are interested. I, at least see it as an excellent learning opportunity.





this one gives a little idea of some of the ramping up that we do.  It was not made specifically to show that but it is mentioned and will give an idea.  The embu, shown is actually way too fast for beginners and even advanced students should start off much slower an then speed it up only later.The slow motion movement is to train alignment while fighting and to help the students learn to relax enough to be fast, opportunistic and learn how to control with contact.Yousee quite clearly near the end where Colin takes hold of my head at one point when I tried something silly.  No greater feedback and reality check than thinking "what about this knd of move" and someone taking control of your spine by getting a hold of your head. Learn what works, learn what doesn't in a safe environment so that structural alignment takes precedence, is a huge part of the goal of embu

Respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## ATACX GYM

marlon said:


> So, i just looked at your alternating maces series. good stuff. Something in the technique reminded me of our combination #3.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I show our version more in the ideal phase at the link above. But feel free to search for it elsewhere to get a more complete idea. I have torn my achilles, so, I cannot put anything up right now compareable to your excellent series. When I am up and about again i would love to exchange concepts through a video medium suc as youtube. If you are interested. I, at least see it as an excellent learning opportunity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> this one gives a little idea of some of the ramping up that we do. It was not made specifically to show that but it is mentioned and will give an idea. The embu, shown is actually way too fast for beginners and even advanced students should start off much slower an then speed it up only later.The slow motion movement is to train alignment while fighting and to help the students learn to relax enough to be fast, opportunistic and learn how to control with contact.Yousee quite clearly near the end where Colin takes hold of my head at one point when I tried something silly. No greater feedback and reality check than thinking "what about this knd of move" and someone taking control of your spine by getting a hold of your head. Learn what works, learn what doesn't in a safe environment so that structural alignment takes precedence, is a huge part of the goal of embu
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon


 

Do you spar with any of these techniques? While I do absolutely agree with you that the mindset in worst case SD scenarios is much more intense than in sparring,I believe that the closest psychological prep we can giv is basically an oversaturation of intense sparring which prepares the mind quite thoroughly to deal with the escalated violence and brutality of a SD scenario.It's not that thaaat far of a leap for most SD scenarios and most attackers lack the skill technique athleticism and whatnot to pose a genuine threat to us.Consider Navy SEALs training for instance.Despite the fact that they don't regularly breach live enemy nuclear facilites and whatever other harrowing feats they regulary perform because they believe that there is no practical "practice oriented" substitute for the real thing; instead they apply functional training and creativity and do not only quite well but AMAZINGLY well facing threats the likes of which we'll never face.SWAT,ATF,HRT and many others prove that functional training paradigms prepare us as well as we can be prepared for the worst kinds of threats,and number one in effectiveness is sparring and live fire exercises.We martial artists should imho do exactly the same,subjecting our techniques to real world testing,and we'll see immediately that the IP in ANY FORM will fail even the most basic testing.Why? Because combat is not an ideal,it's a reality.And reality rarely conforms to our hypotheticals of it; we have to fied test our techniques via sparring and self-defense scenarios at escalating levels of power and speed etc. in order to impart real world ability competence and confidence.


The IP,by definition,does not and cannot do this.Therefore the IP in any form or variant will always be the problem and the functional variant in whatever form will always always be superior.It's the superior teaching model,learning model,application model,spiritual model...it is literally the "proof in the pudding".


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## marlon

To answer your question about sparring, the answer is no.  To clarify I would lile to point out that sparring is essentially a game 
Would I fight with any of them.  Would they look exactly like the IP, most likely not.  Would they be reflective of the principles and basics  taught through the IP absolutely. Maybe our instructors are very different in their approach of teaching through the set scenario and also, I am not AK.  But I teach principles through these techniques in order to win the fight and not techniques in order to say I can pull off Freaky Monkey whenever someone jumps me from the left side with a club in his right hand when the moon is at 3/4 of it's phase

As a friend of mine says: training is truth.  Perhaps it is proof as well
I am thoroughly enjoying this discussion
Respectfully
Marlon


----------



## MJS

marlon said:


> To answer your question about sparring, the answer is no. To clarify I would lile to point out that sparring is essentially a game
> Would I fight with any of them. Would they look exactly like the IP, most likely not. Would they be reflective of the principles and basics taught through the IP absolutely. Maybe our instructors are very different in their approach of teaching through the set scenario and also, I am not AK. But I teach principles through these techniques in order to win the fight and not techniques in order to say I can pull off Freaky Monkey whenever someone jumps me from the left side with a club in his right hand when the moon is at 3/4 of it's phase
> 
> As a friend of mine says: training is truth. Perhaps it is proof as well
> I am thoroughly enjoying this discussion
> Respectfully
> Marlon


 
Just for clarification.  The subject of sparring has come up before, both here and on KenpoTalk.  Speaking for myself, when I hear sparring, I'm not thinking of doing the techs in the typical point or freestyle format.  Sparring, IMO, in this sense, is randomly testing the techs, testing yourself, ie: pressure testing, aliveness, etc.  Ex: pick a set tech to work, in this case, 5 Swords.  Attacker punches, but instead of standing there like a statue, the attacker adds movement, so as to not allow you to execute the textbook tech, he punches with the other hand, he tries to grab, tackle, etc.  

Doing this, is sparring, IMO.  We have to be careful not to let it turn into the typical sparring match, but as I said, its more testing, than sparring.  If you watch Ras' clips, you'll see what he's talking about.


----------



## marlon

What you describe fits more into what we call reaction drills. The difference for me is not only a lack of predictability on the type of attack and when it comes, but also a commitment to do damage. Sparring has a lot of feignts and feeling out that is frequently not there in a fight as well as the level of commitment.  However, if we adhere to your definition of sparring I stand by my ealrier post
Thanks
Marlon


----------



## ATACX GYM

MJS said:


> Just for clarification. The subject of sparring has come up before, both here and on KenpoTalk. Speaking for myself, when I hear sparring, I'm not thinking of doing the techs in the typical point or freestyle format. Sparring, IMO, in this sense, is randomly testing the techs, testing yourself, ie: pressure testing, aliveness, etc. Ex: pick a set tech to work, in this case, 5 Swords. Attacker punches, but instead of standing there like a statue, the attacker adds movement, so as to not allow you to execute the textbook tech, he punches with the other hand, he tries to grab, tackle, etc.
> 
> Doing this, is sparring, IMO. We have to be careful not to let it turn into the typical sparring match, but as I said, its more testing, than sparring. If you watch Ras' clips, you'll see what he's talking about.


 

I was about to say this myself,but you did a marvelous job here.I'm enjoying this discussion.



marlon said:


> What you describe fits more into what we call reaction drills. The difference for me is not only a lack of predictability on the type of attack and when it comes, but also a commitment to do damage. Sparring has a lot of feignts and feeling out that is frequently not there in a fight as well as the level of commitment. However, if we adhere to your definition of sparring I stand by my ealrier post
> Thanks
> Marlon


 

To me? Sparring has a MUCH broader range than the point fighting precision striking (which is very functional,depending on how you train it) and what have you.If you are saying that you actually train with movement escalating levels of attack which reach up to 100% full power full speed techniques (which very functionally emulates street assaults),you do so from 360 degrees of protection,seated,vs armed,multifight,armed multifight,ground,clinch,escape,rescue,and variants of these and other factors? Then you're training functionally...and by doing so not only do we find our common ground you solidify my point.If the IP was sufficient? Reaction drills,high intensity sparring,multiple assailants...in short,the need to train in a way that conforms with the fact that SD scenarios are by definition NOT the "ideal"...would be totally unneeded.Real world sparring and field testing is THE ULTIMATE litmus test short of the actual SD situation itself.Again,the simplicity and truth of it is made evident by its results. Your friend is RIGHT. "Training is truth". I would be inclined to opine that training can definitely gives us insight into truth as well.And if you aren't reacting to an attack exactly as the IP specifies but boxers,Navy SEALS,SWAT team members,martial artists like me,and everyone else who uses the Functional Method uses our techniques nearly 100% of the time EXACTLY like or in the 90+ percentile similar to how we train and handily handle our opposition? Then our training is more efficient.And we have more quality reps in it. If we're relatively equal physically and mentally yet you train the IP way yet respond in a no-IP way to numerous attacks,and I train functionally and respond successfully and functionally to those very same attacks with the exact techniques that I'd been training? Then I'm both better AND more efficient than you.Because your training paradigm is demonstrably inferior to mine.


----------



## marlon

ATACX GYM said:


> I was about to say this myself,but you did a marvelous job here.I'm enjoying this discussion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To me? Sparring has a MUCH broader range than the point fighting precision striking (which is very functional,depending on how you train it) and what have you.If you are saying that you actually train with movement escalating levels of attack which reach up to 100% full power full speed techniques (which very functionally emulates street assaults),you do so from 360 degrees of protection,seated,vs armed,multifight,armed multifight,ground,clinch,escape,rescue,and variants of these and other factors? Then you're training functionally...and by doing so not only do we find our common ground you solidify my point.If the IP was sufficient? Reaction drills,high intensity sparring,multiple assailants...in short,the need to train in a way that conforms with the fact that SD scenarios are by definition NOT the "ideal"...would be totally unneeded.Real world sparring and field testing is THE ULTIMATE litmus test short of the actual SD situation itself.Again,the simplicity and truth of it is made evident by its results. Your friend is RIGHT. "Training is truth". I would be inclined to opine that training can definitely gives us insight into truth as well.And if you aren't reacting to an attack exactly as the IP specifies but boxers,Navy SEALS,SWAT team members,martial artists like me,and everyone else who uses the Functional Method uses our techniques nearly 100% of the time EXACTLY like or in the 90+ percentile similar to how we train and handily handle our opposition? Then our training is more efficient.And we have more quality reps in it. If we're relatively equal physically and mentally yet you train the IP way yet respond in a no-IP way to numerous attacks,and I train functionally and respond successfully and functionally to those very same attacks with the exact techniques that I'd been training? Then I'm both better AND more efficient than you.Because your training paradigm is demonstrably inferior to mine.


 
Interesting, and perhaps you are correct, i do not know. I know i can defend myself quite well and I am confident that my students can as well.  As for boxing and SEAL training, I don't think they have set techniques so unless you are advocating dropping any set techniques (IP or ohterwise), i do not see the comparisson.  Each time I teach someone how to step back with an IP technique, how to step forwar with a downward block, how to position themselves inside or outside of an attack... there is functional training in the basics of alignment, structure and mechanics and more.The IP's are training vehicules fr the basics first and foremeost.  not the other way around.  Not single use techniques to be touted as perfection.  Yet, intelligence suggests that in designing such tools make them damn effective, no? I do not consider fluid response options a failure in training either.  The reason I find that a whole technique is not needed is because the technique is designed to work before completion, imo.  That I find myself so positioned in a fight that the last 1/3 of an IP technique does the trick well...works for me.  There is control and power built into the techniques that when porperly trainined and executed your kempo is great.  If your concept of an IP technique includes un realistic training then our definitions are very different.  When we ramp it up, we do not change the technique, we use the lessons of the technique to train it to work against ever increasing intensity.  Perhaps, I made i sound otherwise.  In a fight things come out as they will.  In training we articicially force the technique so as to increase our skill level.
just a few toughts

Respectfully,
Maron


----------



## marlon

ATACX GYM said:


> I was about to say this myself,but you did a marvelous job here.I'm enjoying this discussion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To me? Sparring has a MUCH broader range than the point fighting precision striking (which is very functional,depending on how you train it) and what have you.If you are saying that you actually train with movement escalating levels of attack which reach up to 100% full power full speed techniques (which very functionally emulates street assaults),you do so from 360 degrees of protection,seated,vs armed,multifight,armed multifight,ground,clinch,escape,rescue,and variants of these and other factors? Then you're training functionally...and by doing so not only do we find our common ground you solidify my point.If the IP was sufficient? Reaction drills,high intensity sparring,multiple assailants...in short,the need to train in a way that conforms with the fact that SD scenarios are by definition NOT the "ideal"...would be totally unneeded.Real world sparring and field testing is THE ULTIMATE litmus test short of the actual SD situation itself.Again,the simplicity and truth of it is made evident by its results. Your friend is RIGHT. "Training is truth". I would be inclined to opine that training can definitely gives us insight into truth as well.And if you aren't reacting to an attack exactly as the IP specifies but boxers,Navy SEALS,SWAT team members,martial artists like me,and everyone else who uses the Functional Method uses our techniques nearly 100% of the time EXACTLY like or in the 90+ percentile similar to how we train and handily handle our opposition? Then our training is more efficient.And we have more quality reps in it. If we're relatively equal physically and mentally yet you train the IP way yet respond in a no-IP way to numerous attacks,and I train functionally and respond successfully and functionally to those very same attacks with the exact techniques that I'd been training? Then I'm both better AND more efficient than you.Because your training paradigm is demonstrably inferior to mine.


 

BTW do you really have a technique seated against multiple armed attackers that you train?


----------



## ATACX GYM

marlon said:


> BTW do you really have a technique seated against multiple armed attackers that you train?


 

Yes.The technique is don't get killed and run your *** off.


----------



## ATACX GYM

marlon said:


> Interesting, and perhaps you are correct, i do not know. I know i can defend myself quite well and I am confident that my students can as well. As for boxing and SEAL training, I don't think they have set techniques so unless you are advocating dropping any set techniques (IP or ohterwise), i do not see the comparisson. Each time I teach someone how to step back with an IP technique, how to step forwar with a downward block, how to position themselves inside or outside of an attack... there is functional training in the basics of alignment, structure and mechanics and more.The IP's are training vehicules fr the basics first and foremeost. not the other way around. Not single use techniques to be touted as perfection. Yet, intelligence suggests that in designing such tools make them damn effective, no? I do not consider fluid response options a failure in training either. The reason I find that a whole technique is not needed is because the technique is designed to work before completion, imo. That I find myself so positioned in a fight that the last 1/3 of an IP technique does the trick well...works for me. There is control and power built into the techniques that when porperly trainined and executed your kempo is great. If your concept of an IP technique includes un realistic training then our definitions are very different. When we ramp it up, we do not change the technique, we use the lessons of the technique to train it to work against ever increasing intensity. Perhaps, I made i sound otherwise. In a fight things come out as they will. In training we articicially force the technique so as to increase our skill level.
> just a few toughts
> 
> Respectfully,
> Maron


 
I like posting with you,Marlon...

...I have no doubt that you and your students can defend yourselves well.And again...if your training includes energy,timing,motion,resistance and it ramps up to maximum levels of resistance? We're talking 100% full power here? Then we're talking functional training.

Where I think you and I may also be missing one another is the idea of basics and solid basic technical training.The functional method is unquestionably superior here too.

Functionality is exactly what is needed to teach the proper stances,transitions,blocks,whatever you need.If you learn a technique--whatever it is--in practice and execute it correctly in the pursuit and accomplishment of whatever it's goal is? It's functional.Functionality isn't limited to what-if's.Functionality is high quality,practical,applicable,immediate real world PERFORMANCE.It's WHAT IS,not just WHAT IF.And it's applicable in every real world human pursuit.Functionality is NOT a SPECIFIC SET OF TECHNIQUES;functionality is the overarching and underlying principle that gives rise to an infinity of highly applicble,immediately and recognizably effective,extremely efficient real world techniques that will work pretty much anywhere anytime vs anyone or any group. So even if you would do a different response to the CAPTURED TWIGS than me? If you trained your response with proper functional tested basics,against energy motion timing resistance up to near full power or full power? Then it's functional.The difference in our specific response is the difference in our human experience,but the unifying overarching reality is our functionality and there will be distinct and apparent similarities to our responses. 

The unifying similarity in the IP techniques as I have seen them is that they don't work reliably because they haven't been tested reliably vs real world opposition.Zero or barely more than zero energy,motion,timing was used in the IP suggested teaching method.Which is why it won't work in the real world vs real attackers.And the disillusioned beatdown student who's been hoodwinked by IP training will then conclude that KARATE doesn't work and either stop pursuing martial arts altogether or go to MMA because MMA guys can by and large do what they say they can do and they can do it against anybody and they can teach you to do it that way too.Know why? Functionality.Same with Navy SEALS,SWAT guys,etc.If you train your Kenpo that way? You'll win most of your SD encounters if not all of them.And if you come up on the losing side? It won't be because your Kenpo isn't functional.You'll know what happened and you'll know what to do about it.When  Sugar Ray Leonard lost to Duran in their first meeting,he didn't conclude that BOXING DOESN'T WORK.He retooled his training.When Holyfield lost to Bowe,when Ali lost to Spinks,when Sugar Shane lost to Floyd...none of them concluded that BOXING DOESN'T WORK.They retooled their training.In nonfunctionally trained martial arts schools? The beatdown students will speedily conclude that THEIR WHOLE ART doesn't work.Even casual fans of boxing won't conclude that boxing doesn't work,or police tactics don't work,or military tactics won't work because a boxer loses or a police or military person dies.They know better.And that's the difference between functional training and IP training.IP training is functionally unreliable in the real world and functional training is reliable in every regard and every way in the real world,from the most basic concepts and philosophies,to the most non-impact technical training,to life and death threats.And there ya are.


----------



## marlon

ATACX GYM said:


> I like posting with you,Marlon...
> 
> ...I have no doubt that you and your students can defend yourselves well.And again...if your training includes energy,timing,motion,resistance and it ramps up to maximum levels of resistance? We're talking 100% full power here? Then we're talking functional training.
> 
> Where I think you and I may also be missing one another is the idea of basics and solid basic technical training.The functional method is unquestionably superior here too.
> 
> Functionality is exactly what is needed to teach the proper stances,transitions,blocks,whatever you need.If you learn a technique--whatever it is--in practice and execute it correctly in the pursuit and accomplishment of whatever it's goal is? It's functional.Functionality isn't limited to what-if's.Functionality is high quality,practical,applicable,immediate real world PERFORMANCE.It's WHAT IS,not just WHAT IF.And it's applicable in every real world human pursuit.Functionality is NOT a SPECIFIC SET OF TECHNIQUES;functionality is the overarching and underlying principle that gives rise to an infinity of highly applicble,immediately and recognizably effective,extremely efficient real world techniques that will work pretty much anywhere anytime vs anyone or any group. So even if you would do a different response to the CAPTURED TWIGS than me? If you trained your response with proper functional tested basics,against energy motion timing resistance up to near full power or full power? Then it's functional.The difference in our specific response is the difference in our human experience,but the unifying overarching reality is our functionality and there will be distinct and apparent similarities to our responses.
> 
> The unifying similarity in the IP techniques as I have seen them is that they don't work reliably because they haven't been tested reliably vs real world opposition.Zero or barely more than zero energy,motion,timing was used in the IP suggested teaching method.Which is why it won't work in the real world vs real attackers.And the disillusioned beatdown student who's been hoodwinked by IP training will then conclude that KARATE doesn't work and either stop pursuing martial arts altogether or go to MMA because MMA guys can by and large do what they say they can do and they can do it against anybody and they can teach you to do it that way too.Know why? Functionality.Same with Navy SEALS,SWAT guys,etc.If you train your Kenpo that way? You'll win most of your SD encounters if not all of them.And if you come up on the losing side? It won't be because your Kenpo isn't functional.You'll know what happened and you'll know what to do about it.When Sugar Ray Leonard lost to Duran in their first meeting,he didn't conclude that BOXING DOESN'T WORK.He retooled his training.When Holyfield lost to Bowe,when Ali lost to Spinks,when Sugar Shane lost to Floyd...none of them concluded that BOXING DOESN'T WORK.They retooled their training.In nonfunctionally trained martial arts schools? The beatdown students will speedily conclude that THEIR WHOLE ART doesn't work.Even casual fans of boxing won't conclude that boxing doesn't work,or police tactics don't work,or military tactics won't work because a boxer loses or a police or military person dies.They know better.And that's the difference between functional training and IP training.IP training is functionally unreliable in the real world and functional training is reliable in every regard and every way in the real world,from the most basic concepts and philosophies,to the most non-impact technical training,to life and death threats.And there ya are.


 

I am enjoying this exchange as well.  Firstly, sorry to disappoint you, we never get up to striking each other with 100% power.  We amp it up and attack with increasing speed and intent but 100% power no.  It gets rough enough and the wake up call that something is off in your skills and technique is very very apparent, but most people can go to work the next day.  The full contact stuff is for the black belts who wnt to and even then we ae not out to damage any one, like the traditional kaju stuff.  the rest of the stuff you mentioned is training as we do it

I think I really don't understand what you are calling the ideal phase.  could you describe it for me please.  Also, your functional training, is that all about speed and power?  I imagine it is not started on day one.  How do you bring people to the level that they can successfully, engage in the functional level?

Thanks 
Marlon


----------



## ATACX GYM

marlon said:


> I am enjoying this exchange as well. Firstly, sorry to disappoint you, we never get up to striking each other with 100% power. We amp it up and attack with increasing speed and intent but 100% power no. It gets rough enough and the wake up call that something is off in your skills and technique is very very apparent, but most people can go to work the next day. The full contact stuff is for the black belts who wnt to and even then we ae not out to damage any one, like the traditional kaju stuff. the rest of the stuff you mentioned is training as we do it
> 
> I think I really don't understand what you are calling the ideal phase. could you describe it for me please. Also, your functional training, is that all about speed and power? I imagine it is not started on day one. How do you bring people to the level that they can successfully, engage in the functional level?
> 
> Thanks
> Marlon


 

Functionality is direct and simple.Since I have to go and teach some more,let me give you a link to Functional/Alive training...


http://www.straightblastgym.com/newbook.htm


----------



## Inkspill

this link doesn't talk at all about what functional/alive training is, only why others "don't train it" etc.

for the question on the Ideal Phase, it is the first of 3 phases (IDEAL phase I, WHAT IF phase II, FORMULATION phase III).

"this is PHASE 1 of the analytical process of dissecting a technique. It requires structuring an IDEAL technique by selecting a combat situation that you wish to analyze. contained within the technique should be fixed moves of defense, offense, and the anticipated reactions that can stem from them. this PHASE strongly urges the need to analyze techniques from 3 POINTS OF VIEW. refer to 3 POINTS OF VIEW, as well as FIRST, SECOND, and THIRD POINT OF VIEW." encyclopedia of Kenpo

look into phases, stages, and states to explore more.


----------



## MJS

Inkspill said:


> this link doesn't talk at all about what functional/alive training is, only why others "don't train it" etc.
> 
> for the question on the Ideal Phase, it is the first of 3 phases (IDEAL phase I, WHAT IF phase II, FORMULATION phase III).
> 
> "this is PHASE 1 of the analytical process of dissecting a technique. It requires structuring an IDEAL technique by selecting a combat situation that you wish to analyze. contained within the technique should be fixed moves of defense, offense, and the anticipated reactions that can stem from them. this PHASE strongly urges the need to analyze techniques from 3 POINTS OF VIEW. refer to 3 POINTS OF VIEW, as well as FIRST, SECOND, and THIRD POINT OF VIEW." encyclopedia of Kenpo
> 
> look into phases, stages, and states to explore more.


 
I posted this in the other thread, but for reference...

http://www.straightblastgym.com/aliveness101.html

here ya go.


----------



## marlon

Inkspill said:


> this link doesn't talk at all about what functional/alive training is, only why others "don't train it" etc.
> 
> for the question on the Ideal Phase, it is the first of 3 phases (IDEAL phase I, WHAT IF phase II, FORMULATION phase III).
> 
> "this is PHASE 1 of the analytical process of dissecting a technique. It requires structuring an IDEAL technique by selecting a combat situation that you wish to analyze. contained within the technique should be fixed moves of defense, offense, and the anticipated reactions that can stem from them. this PHASE strongly urges the need to analyze techniques from 3 POINTS OF VIEW. refer to 3 POINTS OF VIEW, as well as FIRST, SECOND, and THIRD POINT OF VIEW." encyclopedia of Kenpo
> 
> look into phases, stages, and states to explore more.


 
Thanks,
Could you explain the other phases?


----------



## Inkspill

What If Phase - this is PHASE 2 of the analytical process of dissecting a technique.  This PHASE takes in additional variables.  It requires being programmed to further analyze the IDEAL or fixed technique.  Expected, as well as unexpected opponent reactions are projected and evaluated.  The concept here is that every movement may have critical consequences; thus, in a realistic situation, the need to predict each consequence to the best of your knowledge is imperative.  Ideally, all consequential possibilities should b projected, evaluated, and learned.  To do so is to increase your ability to instinctively and randomly alter the basic technique, and thus allow yourself a choice of action.

Formulation Phase - this is PHASE 3 of the analytical process of dissecting a technique.  This PHASE involves the actual application of your newly found alternatives to the original IDEAL or fixed technique.  Knowing what can additionally happen within the framework of the fixed technique, teaches you how to apply your variable answers to a free and changing environment.  This ultimate process of combat training can be learned by using the EQUATION FORMULA for fighting.


----------



## marlon

Thank you.  and, of course, equation ????

marlon


----------



## ATACX GYM

Inkspill said:


> this link doesn't talk at all about what functional/alive training is, only why others "don't train it" etc.
> 
> for the question on the Ideal Phase, it is the first of 3 phases (IDEAL phase I, WHAT IF phase II, FORMULATION phase III).
> 
> "this is PHASE 1 of the analytical process of dissecting a technique. It requires structuring an IDEAL technique by selecting a combat situation that you wish to analyze. contained within the technique should be fixed moves of defense, offense, and the anticipated reactions that can stem from them. this PHASE strongly urges the need to analyze techniques from 3 POINTS OF VIEW. refer to 3 POINTS OF VIEW, as well as FIRST, SECOND, and THIRD POINT OF VIEW." encyclopedia of Kenpo
> 
> look into phases, stages, and states to explore more.


 


marlon said:


> Thank you. and, of course, equation ????
> 
> marlon


 
My bad on putting up the incorrect link.The correct link would have been THIS ONE

http://www.straightblastgym.com/aliveness101.html


And this "IDEAL PHASE" is a devastatingly horrific almost certainly dysfunctional deception that needs to be trash canned ASAP.The IDEAS BEHIND the "ideal phase" are GOOD SOLID IDEAS.We should specifically train against common street SD scenarios and attacks as these scenarios and attacks are likely to never occur in the most primary froms of sparring matches in the dojo.The surprise attack,multifights,armed attacks,verbal confrontation leading to the sucker punch,being pushed/slammed/thrown into walls,energetic attacks and hair grabs,head slams,etc.Wonderful ideas to start FUNCTIONAL TRAINING from.

However,the physical expression and most dominant examples of the IP are TOTALLY NONFUNCTIONAL and suck the big one.They are absolutely without merit and need to be trash canned forthwith.They have basically zero modern day worth or value.There IS NO IDEAL IN COMBAT.If you had an ideal in combat? That ideal would be to NOT be in combat.There is no functional,honest,healthy,real-world way to defend the IP sequences because none of them are functional.None of them.Zero.However,if we took those ideas and trained them functionally as I advocate? We'd have suddenly a plethora of extremely functional seqences and techniques that not only could and would capture the public's imagnation as a real world instantly applicabe I-don't-have-to-b-a-MMA-fightr-to-defend-myself-and-get-in-shape-plus-my-kids-can-learn-dscipline-and-have-fun HONEST AND TRUTHFUL MARKETING METHOD (it's rare to have "honest an trutful" combined with "marketing" in the same sentence AND BE ACCURATE);we also have the mandate to evolve and become more functional as time passes,thus never falling out of the realm of real world applicability.We'd have FUNCTIONAL TEMPLATES instead of IDEAL templates.We'd also be in DIRECT ACCORDANCE with what GGMEP himself stated is what his instructor had done with the lessons that he learned (Professor Chow) and subsequently taught GGMEP to do,and which GGMEP wants all kenpoists to do...which is to focus on practical application and tailor our knowledge for the modern realities of the streets today.





 
Therefore those who are championing the maintainence of the IP in its current form are NOT hewing to the underlying principles of practicality and functionality that spawned the creation of the IP in the first place.They are hewing to THE FORM and NOT THE SUBSTANCE. The IP was amongst the height of innovative thought and training concepts in its early times,but especially since the 80's it was outmoded.The advent of events like the UFC and the success within the USA and worldwide of MMA caused serious practitioners to NOT abandon their core arts but rather retool their training to deal with the options and opportunities that were are and will be spawned by the MMA revolution.The IP is loooong overdue for total overhaul and retooling,and the return to the actual vibrant idea of practicality and functionality being the root from which all technique tactics training methods and stratagems spring.Kenpo's unique movement methods will be articulated in ways that are far more effective than they currently are,and fitness will be pushed to a level wherein we won't see such a proliferation of fat belts hanging over the waists of our serious and senior black belts (this is,of course,excepting medical conditions that impact a person's ability to train,sleep,or whatever it may be).

The IP is trash.It is craptacular.It needs permanent and serious flushing.It's a hindrance to Kenpo.Going back to the comparisons between DTS and 5 Swords that started this thread? The whole IP and the anal retentive "training" that it spawns is the reason that there's even a QUESTION about the DTS.It's the reason that there will forever be doubts about much of Kenpo's utility as long as it exists in this fashion;because the IP has zerio utilitarian aspects.Zero.None.Doesn't matter how illustrious a name sings its praises.You ever see a sizable chunk of boxers seriously ask:"Uhhhhh...does that jab thing work in a real fight?" Hell no. How many times have you seen even a high school wrestler of moderate experience and training truly doubt the utility of the shot,clinch,double leg,or trip? Never. You know hy? They train realistically and functionally.They fight the way they train.And theyspar and fight with the techniques that they train with.Even their Parliament style funk moves are all born of real world combat reality and are very functional

Observe:

THE FUNK ROLL INSTRUCTIONAL





 
THE FUNK ROLL APPLICATION

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjKp3f8pqpI&feature=related


THE BACKFLIP APPLICATION

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NhwQzjWSmk&feature=related





 

Now why can't we find ONE SINGLE INSTANCE of anyone using our beloved Kenpo SD techniques WHILE SPARRING,IN A MATCH,OR IN A REAL FIGHT? I mean specifically the Ideal Phase Kenpo techniques.Waiting.Still waiting.Time's up.The answer is because the SD techniques aren't trained functionally enough on a universal scale to engender the confidence in their use EVEN IN A TOURNAMENT WITH ONLY KENPO PRACTITIONERS.That's just...sad beyond words.Can you go to a boxing tourney and RELIABLY NEVER SEE A JAB? Can you go to a TKD tourney and RELIABLY NEVER SEE A SIDEKICK ROUND OR BACK KICK? Can you go to ANY sport combat competition ANYWHERE ON EARTH and RELIABLY NOT SEE THE VERY BACKBONE OF THE ART NOT BEING DONE? Nope.But YOU CAN SEE IT IN KENPO.The 72 SD TECHS ARE RELIABLY NOT DONE.

That's...beyond tragic. 


But I guarantee you that I will change that.Before April is over you will see me put on my Channel live sparring clips wherein I use my FUNCTIONAL variants of Kenpo's SD techniques against all comers and watch them work.For all of you who will inevitably diss and deconstruct my technical application even though I succeeded? My responses are preemptively: "Where or YOUR videos?" and "I guarantee that I'll do these techniques to you too.Successfully."



Back to the IP defenders and supporters...

Until they SPAR AND FIGHT TOP FLIGHT RESISTING OPPONENTS USING THE IP EXACTLY AS THEY SHOWED IT TO US AND WIN? They're trash. However,the FUNCTIONAL articulation of the IDEAS BEHIND THE IP are GIANT GIFTS BOONS AND BENEFITS TO THE MARTIAL ARTS.Functionality makes all benefits possible.Functionality is why a Master who's never spent one second in the IKCA which birthed the DTS (me) was able to instantly spin a far more effective method from it WITHIN MINUTES OF READING IT AND NOT EVER SEEING IT DONE BY AN IKCA MAN.The IP can get your tail kicked or killed while making you think that you have the tools to defend yourself,some innocents and/or loved ones because it's absolutely not functional yet instructors who are enspelled by it will similarly mesmerize their unsuspecting students and it's their STUDENTS who are most likely to face the horrific reality of their complete lack of preparedness in some rude awakening on the street.Their students will then conclude that KARATE DOESN'T WORK...AND SPREAD THE GOSPEL TO THEIR FRIENDS.Hell nowadays? Kids could find themselves being stomped out on Youtube,displaying their LACK of functionality with Kenpo for all to see.Kids and adults will have what they think is empirical evidence that karate doesn't work,so go to a boxing or MMA gym.

Now I apologize to those whose feelings or sensibilities have been affected by my bluntness here,as I don't mean to attack any single person or group specifically.What I'm railing against is the preservation of a tremendously harmful absolutely wasteful nonfunctional training METHOD which is the IDEAL PHASE instead of the common sense,wonderful training CONCEPT that spawned the IP in the first place.The CONCEPT IS FUNCTIONAL.The METHOD is *** and must be atomically annihilated forthwith and replaced with the Functional/Alive/Insert A Name That Curls Your Toes approach fifthwith.Lolol.See...forthwith/fourthwith and fifthwith? Jokes I say.


----------



## marlon

ATACX GYM said:


> My bad on putting up the incorrect link.The correct link would have been THIS ONE
> 
> http://www.straightblastgym.com/aliveness101.html
> 
> 
> And this "IDEAL PHASE" is a devastatingly horrific almost certainly dysfunctional deception that needs to be trash canned ASAP.The IDEAS BEHIND the "ideal phase" are GOOD SOLID IDEAS.We should specifically train against common street SD scenarios and attacks as these scenarios and attacks are likely to never occur in the most primary froms of sparring matches in the dojo.The surprise attack,multifights,armed attacks,verbal confrontation leading to the sucker punch,being pushed/slammed/thrown into walls,energetic attacks and hair grabs,head slams,etc.Wonderful ideas to start FUNCTIONAL TRAINING from.
> 
> However,the physical expression and most dominant examples of the IP are TOTALLY NONFUNCTIONAL and suck the big one.They are absolutely without merit and need to be trash canned forthwith.They have basically zero modern day worth or value.There IS NO IDEAL IN COMBAT.If you had an ideal in combat? That ideal would be to NOT be in combat.There is no functional,honest,healthy,real-world way to defend the IP sequences because none of them are functional.None of them.Zero.However,if we took those ideas and trained them functionally as I advocate? We'd have suddenly a plethora of extremely functional seqences and techniques that not only could and would capture the public's imagnation as a real world instantly applicabe I-don't-have-to-b-a-MMA-fightr-to-defend-myself-and-get-in-shape-plus-my-kids-can-learn-dscipline-and-have-fun HONEST AND TRUTHFUL MARKETING METHOD (it's rare to have "honest an trutful" combined with "marketing" in the same sentence AND BE ACCURATE);we also have the mandate to evolve and become more functional as time passes,thus never falling out of the realm of real world applicability.We'd have FUNCTIONAL TEMPLATES instead of IDEAL templates.We'd also be in DIRECT ACCORDANCE with what GGMEP himself stated is what his instructor had done with the lessons that he learned (Professor Chow) and subsequently taught GGMEP to do,and which GGMEP wants all kenpoists to do...which is to focus on practical application and tailor our knowledge for the modern realities of the streets today.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Therefore those who are championing the maintainence of the IP in its current form are NOT hewing to the underlying principles of practicality and functionality that spawned the creation of the IP in the first place.They are hewing to THE FORM and NOT THE SUBSTANCE. The IP was amongst the height of innovative thought and training concepts in its early times,but especially since the 80's it was outmoded.The advent of events like the UFC and the success within the USA and worldwide of MMA caused serious practitioners to NOT abandon their core arts but rather retool their training to deal with the options and opportunities that were are and will be spawned by the MMA revolution.The IP is loooong overdue for total overhaul and retooling,and the return to the actual vibrant idea of practicality and functionality being the root from which all technique tactics training methods and stratagems spring.Kenpo's unique movement methods will be articulated in ways that are far more effective than they currently are,and fitness will be pushed to a level wherein we won't see such a proliferation of fat belts hanging over the waists of our serious and senior black belts (this is,of course,excepting medical conditions that impact a person's ability to train,sleep,or whatever it may be).
> 
> The IP is trash.It is craptacular.It needs permanent and serious flushing.It's a hindrance to Kenpo.Going back to the comparisons between DTS and 5 Swords that started this thread? The whole IP and the anal retentive "training" that it spawns is the reason that there's even a QUESTION about the DTS.It's the reason that there will forever be doubts about much of Kenpo's utility as long as it exists in this fashion;because the IP has zerio utilitarian aspects.Zero.None.Doesn't matter how illustrious a name sings its praises.You ever see a sizable chunk of boxers seriously ask:"Uhhhhh...does that jab thing work in a real fight?" Hell no. How many times have you seen even a high school wrestler of moderate experience and training truly doubt the utility of the shot,clinch,double leg,or trip? Never. You know hy? They train realistically and functionally.They fight the way they train.And theyspar and fight with the techniques that they train with.Even their Parliament style funk moves are all born of real world combat reality and are very functional
> 
> Observe:
> 
> THE FUNK ROLL INSTRUCTIONAL
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> THE FUNK ROLL APPLICATION
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjKp3f8pqpI&feature=related
> 
> 
> THE BACKFLIP APPLICATION
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NhwQzjWSmk&feature=related
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now why can't we find ONE SINGLE INSTANCE of anyone using our beloved Kenpo SD techniques WHILE SPARRING,IN A MATCH,OR IN A REAL FIGHT? I mean specifically the Ideal Phase Kenpo techniques.Waiting.Still waiting.Time's up.The answer is because the SD techniques aren't trained functionally enough on a universal scale to engender the confidence in their use EVEN IN A TOURNAMENT WITH ONLY KENPO PRACTITIONERS.That's just...sad beyond words.Can you go to a boxing tourney and RELIABLY NEVER SEE A JAB? Can you go to a TKD tourney and RELIABLY NEVER SEE A SIDEKICK ROUND OR BACK KICK? Can you go to ANY sport combat competition ANYWHERE ON EARTH and RELIABLY NOT SEE THE VERY BACKBONE OF THE ART NOT BEING DONE? Nope.But YOU CAN SEE IT IN KENPO.The 72 SD TECHS ARE RELIABLY NOT DONE.
> 
> That's...beyond tragic.
> 
> 
> But I guarantee you that I will change that.Before April is over you will see me put on my Channel live sparring clips wherein I use my FUNCTIONAL variants of Kenpo's SD techniques against all comers and watch them work.For all of you who will inevitably diss and deconstruct my technical application even though I succeeded? My responses are preemptively: "Where or YOUR videos?" and "I guarantee that I'll do these techniques to you too.Successfully."
> 
> 
> 
> Back to the IP defenders and supporters...
> 
> Until they SPAR AND FIGHT TOP FLIGHT RESISTING OPPONENTS USING THE IP EXACTLY AS THEY SHOWED IT TO US AND WIN? They're trash. However,the FUNCTIONAL articulation of the IDEAS BEHIND THE IP are GIANT GIFTS BOONS AND BENEFITS TO THE MARTIAL ARTS.Functionality makes all benefits possible.Functionality is why a Master who's never spent one second in the IKCA which birthed the DTS (me) was able to instantly spin a far more effective method from it WITHIN MINUTES OF READING IT AND NOT EVER SEEING IT DONE BY AN IKCA MAN.The IP can get your tail kicked or killed while making you think that you have the tools to defend yourself,some innocents and/or loved ones because it's absolutely not functional yet instructors who are enspelled by it will similarly mesmerize their unsuspecting students and it's their STUDENTS who are most likely to face the horrific reality of their complete lack of preparedness in some rude awakening on the street.Their students will then conclude that KARATE DOESN'T WORK...AND SPREAD THE GOSPEL TO THEIR FRIENDS.Hell nowadays? Kids could find themselves being stomped out on Youtube,displaying their LACK of functionality with Kenpo for all to see.Kids and adults will have what they think is empirical evidence that karate doesn't work,so go to a boxing or MMA gym.
> 
> Now I apologize to those whose feelings or sensibilities have been affected by my bluntness here,as I don't mean to attack any single person or group specifically.What I'm railing against is the preservation of a tremendously harmful absolutely wasteful nonfunctional training METHOD which is the IDEAL PHASE instead of the common sense,wonderful training CONCEPT that spawned the IP in the first place.The CONCEPT IS FUNCTIONAL.The METHOD is *** and must be atomically annihilated forthwith and replaced with the Functional/Alive/Insert A Name That Curls Your Toes approach fifthwith.Lolol.See...forthwith/fourthwith and fifthwith? Jokes I say.


 
I really think you should stop tip toeing around the issue and tell us how you really feel


----------



## Inkspill

I disagree with you ATACX. You may have not seen it but doesn't mean it doesn't exist, you may not have done it, doesn't mean it isn't done by others. You may not be able to work it, doesn't mean, etc.  Kenpo is not about getting in shape, that's a benefit, of which there are many, but the point of the Kenpo is stopping the bad guy and getting away. What is your exposure to Kenpo? where did you learn? Who taught you? How long studying Kenpo? Which specific Kenpo? I have a feeling your experience has been as negative as mine was with another art. For the longest time I said "X art sucks" but it was the teacher, not the art as I came to understand once I met other black belts in that art from outside that school. Of course its still up to the student to train as well. If you don't do the basics correctly of course it won't work.


----------



## MJS

ATACX GYM said:


> My bad on putting up the incorrect link.The correct link would have been THIS ONE
> 
> http://www.straightblastgym.com/aliveness101.html
> 
> 
> And this "IDEAL PHASE" is a devastatingly horrific almost certainly dysfunctional deception that needs to be trash canned ASAP.The IDEAS BEHIND the "ideal phase" are GOOD SOLID IDEAS.We should specifically train against common street SD scenarios and attacks as these scenarios and attacks are likely to never occur in the most primary froms of sparring matches in the dojo.The surprise attack,multifights,armed attacks,verbal confrontation leading to the sucker punch,being pushed/slammed/thrown into walls,energetic attacks and hair grabs,head slams,etc.Wonderful ideas to start FUNCTIONAL TRAINING from.
> 
> However,the physical expression and most dominant examples of the IP are TOTALLY NONFUNCTIONAL and suck the big one.They are absolutely without merit and need to be trash canned forthwith.They have basically zero modern day worth or value.*There IS NO IDEAL IN COMBAT.If you had an ideal in combat? That ideal would be to NOT be in combat*.There is no functional,honest,healthy,real-world way to defend the IP sequences because none of them are functional.None of them.Zero.However,if we took those ideas and trained them functionally as I advocate? We'd have suddenly a plethora of extremely functional seqences and techniques that not only could and would capture the public's imagnation as a real world instantly applicabe I-don't-have-to-b-a-MMA-fightr-to-defend-myself-and-get-in-shape-plus-my-kids-can-learn-dscipline-and-have-fun HONEST AND TRUTHFUL MARKETING METHOD (it's rare to have "honest an trutful" combined with "marketing" in the same sentence AND BE ACCURATE);we also have the mandate to evolve and become more functional as time passes,thus never falling out of the realm of real world applicability.We'd have FUNCTIONAL TEMPLATES instead of IDEAL templates.We'd also be in DIRECT ACCORDANCE with what GGMEP himself stated is what his instructor had done with the lessons that he learned (Professor Chow) and subsequently taught GGMEP to do,and which GGMEP wants all kenpoists to do...which is to focus on practical application and tailor our knowledge for the modern realities of the streets today.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Therefore those who are championing the maintainence of the IP in its current form are NOT hewing to the underlying principles of practicality and functionality that spawned the creation of the IP in the first place.They are hewing to THE FORM and NOT THE SUBSTANCE. The IP was amongst the height of innovative thought and training concepts in its early times,but especially since the 80's it was outmoded.The advent of events like the UFC and the success within the USA and worldwide of MMA caused serious practitioners to NOT abandon their core arts but rather retool their training to deal with the options and opportunities that were are and will be spawned by the MMA revolution.The IP is loooong overdue for total overhaul and retooling,and the return to the actual vibrant idea of practicality and functionality being the root from which all technique tactics training methods and stratagems spring.Kenpo's unique movement methods will be articulated in ways that are far more effective than they currently are,and fitness will be pushed to a level wherein we won't see such a proliferation of fat belts hanging over the waists of our serious and senior black belts (this is,of course,excepting medical conditions that impact a person's ability to train,sleep,or whatever it may be).
> 
> The IP is trash.It is craptacular.It needs permanent and serious flushing.It's a hindrance to Kenpo.Going back to the comparisons between DTS and 5 Swords that started this thread? The whole IP and the anal retentive "training" that it spawns is the reason that there's even a QUESTION about the DTS.It's the reason that there will forever be doubts about much of Kenpo's utility as long as it exists in this fashion;because the IP has zerio utilitarian aspects.Zero.None.Doesn't matter how illustrious a name sings its praises.You ever see a sizable chunk of boxers seriously ask:"Uhhhhh...does that jab thing work in a real fight?" Hell no. How many times have you seen even a high school wrestler of moderate experience and training truly doubt the utility of the shot,clinch,double leg,or trip? Never. You know hy? They train realistically and functionally.They fight the way they train.And theyspar and fight with the techniques that they train with.Even their Parliament style funk moves are all born of real world combat reality and are very functional
> 
> Observe:
> 
> THE FUNK ROLL INSTRUCTIONAL
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> THE FUNK ROLL APPLICATION
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjKp3f8pqpI&feature=related
> 
> 
> THE BACKFLIP APPLICATION
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NhwQzjWSmk&feature=related
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now why can't we find ONE SINGLE INSTANCE of anyone using our beloved Kenpo SD techniques WHILE SPARRING,IN A MATCH,OR IN A REAL FIGHT? I mean specifically the Ideal Phase Kenpo techniques.Waiting.Still waiting.Time's up.The answer is because the SD techniques aren't trained functionally enough on a universal scale to engender the confidence in their use EVEN IN A TOURNAMENT WITH ONLY KENPO PRACTITIONERS.That's just...sad beyond words.Can you go to a boxing tourney and RELIABLY NEVER SEE A JAB? Can you go to a TKD tourney and RELIABLY NEVER SEE A SIDEKICK ROUND OR BACK KICK? Can you go to ANY sport combat competition ANYWHERE ON EARTH and RELIABLY NOT SEE THE VERY BACKBONE OF THE ART NOT BEING DONE? Nope.But YOU CAN SEE IT IN KENPO.The 72 SD TECHS ARE RELIABLY NOT DONE.
> 
> That's...beyond tragic.
> 
> 
> But I guarantee you that I will change that.Before April is over you will see me put on my Channel live sparring clips wherein I use my FUNCTIONAL variants of Kenpo's SD techniques against all comers and watch them work.For all of you who will inevitably diss and deconstruct my technical application even though I succeeded? My responses are preemptively: "Where or YOUR videos?" and "I guarantee that I'll do these techniques to you too.Successfully."
> 
> 
> 
> Back to the IP defenders and supporters...
> 
> Until they SPAR AND FIGHT TOP FLIGHT RESISTING OPPONENTS USING THE IP EXACTLY AS THEY SHOWED IT TO US AND WIN? They're trash. However,the FUNCTIONAL articulation of the IDEAS BEHIND THE IP are GIANT GIFTS BOONS AND BENEFITS TO THE MARTIAL ARTS.Functionality makes all benefits possible.Functionality is why a Master who's never spent one second in the IKCA which birthed the DTS (me) was able to instantly spin a far more effective method from it WITHIN MINUTES OF READING IT AND NOT EVER SEEING IT DONE BY AN IKCA MAN.The IP can get your tail kicked or killed while making you think that you have the tools to defend yourself,some innocents and/or loved ones because it's absolutely not functional yet instructors who are enspelled by it will similarly mesmerize their unsuspecting students and it's their STUDENTS who are most likely to face the horrific reality of their complete lack of preparedness in some rude awakening on the street.Their students will then conclude that KARATE DOESN'T WORK...AND SPREAD THE GOSPEL TO THEIR FRIENDS.Hell nowadays? Kids could find themselves being stomped out on Youtube,displaying their LACK of functionality with Kenpo for all to see.Kids and adults will have what they think is empirical evidence that karate doesn't work,so go to a boxing or MMA gym.
> 
> Now I apologize to those whose feelings or sensibilities have been affected by my bluntness here,as I don't mean to attack any single person or group specifically.What I'm railing against is the preservation of a tremendously harmful absolutely wasteful nonfunctional training METHOD which is the IDEAL PHASE instead of the common sense,wonderful training CONCEPT that spawned the IP in the first place.The CONCEPT IS FUNCTIONAL.The METHOD is *** and must be atomically annihilated forthwith and replaced with the Functional/Alive/Insert A Name That Curls Your Toes approach fifthwith.Lolol.See...forthwith/fourthwith and fifthwith? Jokes I say.


 
Well, can't add much more to this post, other than to say that I wanna steal the bold parts and make a sig. line out of it.


----------



## ATACX GYM

Inkspill said:


> I disagree with you ATACX. You may have not seen it but doesn't mean it doesn't exist, you may not have done it, doesn't mean it isn't done by others. You may not be able to work it, doesn't mean, etc. Kenpo is not about getting in shape, that's a benefit, of which there are many, but the point of the Kenpo is stopping the bad guy and getting away. What is your exposure to Kenpo? where did you learn? Who taught you? How long studying Kenpo? Which specific Kenpo? I have a feeling your experience has been as negative as mine was with another art. For the longest time I said "X art sucks" but it was the teacher, not the art as I came to understand once I met other black belts in that art from outside that school. Of course its still up to the student to train as well. If you don't do the basics correctly of course it won't work.


 

Okay Inkspill,I respect your posts and the obvious intellect and love of Kenpo behind it.However,I must state again that we're NOT talking about Kenpo AS A WHOLE,instead we're having a focused discussion about the IP delivery of the 72 SD techniques that form the spine of Kenpo.This is not a discussion about the merit of a martial art imho (of which Kenpo has too many merits to count again imho) instead we are having a difference of opinion regarding the validity of a training method.Training methods are verifiable in objective reality; they are NOT a matter of purely subjective opinion.Therefore the IP can be empirically quantified irrespective of one's sentiment for,against,or indifferent to it.The verdict is in on the IP.

This "IDEAL PHASE" is a devastatingly horrific almost certainly dysfunctional deception that needs to be trash canned ASAP.The IDEAS BEHIND the "ideal phase" are GOOD SOLID IDEAS.We should specifically train against common street SD scenarios and attacks as these scenarios and attacks are likely to never occur in the most primary froms of sparring matches in the dojo.The surprise attack,multifights,armed attacks,verbal confrontation leading to the sucker punch,being pushed/slammed/thrown into walls,energetic attacks and hair grabs,head slams,etc.Wonderful ideas to start FUNCTIONAL TRAINING from.The physical articulation of the IP is completely nonfunctional,totally unrealistic...and therefore therefore there are NO functional,positive,healthy,solid ideas to be had from it.Put another way? If by some miracle someone finds something of worth in it? There is infinitely MORE worth in the FM (Functional Method).

The FM is a blend of Sports Specific Training (which includes nutrition and performance oriented psychology),and all the primary sciences disciplines and arts of performance.It's inclusive of all aspects of recovery,of yoga,of nutrition,of every aspect of proven combat methods,inclusive of periodized training and other methods,etc.It's incredibly result oriented in all things and has specific empirical means of measuring results...including in the "mental/physical/spiritual" holistic approach.Any and every human pursuit and aspiration can be translated into the Functional Method (even searches for love,lol) and it's incredibly healthy.It is the antithesis of the nonfunctional I.P. which delivers zero positive results or at least results which are dramatically overpowered in every realm in every way by the FM.

As for my experience in Kenpo and who was it with? My primary instructor is my uncle and Grandmaster Bobby Thomas.I trained with Chicken Gabriel along with Steve "Nasty" Anderson,I trained with Sijo Muhammad of the BKF and Master Amen Ra of the BKF as well.My experience with and training of Kenpo I would characterize as universally positive.If I disliked Kenpo in any way,I would not be practicing it or championing it.


----------



## ATACX GYM

MJS said:


> Well, can't add much more to this post, other than to say that I wanna steal the bold parts and make a sig. line out of it.


 

LOLOL have at it my martial arts brother.


----------



## Inkspill

I am enjoying our discussion. I apologize for going off the discussion topic/focus. I tend to do that lol. I appreciate your passion and patience.

Anyway, 

You said "The physical articulation of the IP is completely nonfunctional,totally unrealistic"

Can you explain or help me understand this? I disagree. natural actions are taken into account and I believe it necessary to teach with techniques like this create a base, much like writing, starting with block letters, then cursive and then shorthand.

Also, for the teaching method, having the techniques as they are is building off what is known, and various principles are taught in the technique, well now I see I'm going off topic now.

Ok, allow me to ask what specifically is not functional about the IP?


----------



## ATACX GYM

Inkspill said:


> I am enjoying our discussion. I apologize for going off the discussion topic/focus. I tend to do that lol. I appreciate your passion and patience.
> 
> Anyway,
> 
> You said "The physical articulation of the IP is completely nonfunctional,totally unrealistic"
> 
> Can you explain or help me understand this? I disagree. natural actions are taken into account and I believe it necessary to teach with techniques like this create a base, much like writing, starting with block letters, then cursive and then shorthand.
> 
> Also, for the teaching method, having the techniques as they are is building off what is known, and various principles are taught in the technique, well now I see I'm going off topic now.
> 
> Ok, allow me to ask what specifically is not functional about the IP?


 

Yes,I can help to explain exactly what I mean regarding the complete and total nonfunctionality of the physical movements of the IP.I don't mean the techniques per se--if the TECHNIQUES of Kenpo were functionally compromised,I couldn't take those exact same techniques and find a way to make them functional and Kenpo as a whole would be very questionable in value unless it was actually more of a philosophy sans a specific body of techniques say like Bruce Lee's JKD--I mean the pedagogy,the teaching of the techniques from the base onward (stance,blocks,movement,attacks,etc). There is nothing that the IP does (actually fails to do) that the IP isn't many times superior at actually succeeding at.

Lemme give you an example:

The IP Alternating Maces,executed by a 10th dan GRANDMASTER:





 
Funtional Alternating Maces,executed by yours truly...merely a 5th dan





 




 




 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MBEBgQTWlg&feature=related


Now,what I'm missing here is the video of the first part of instruction...perception,stance,movement,footwork,defensive and offensive training.But the articulation of the movements that I display are indicative of the extensive functional thought that went into the techniques PRIOR to inception and execution AND the refinements that occurred AFTER SPARRING with the techniques.There is one video clip were I do the Alt. Maces vs 5-6 separate pushes and against a live 360 degree Bull In The Ring drill which really brings it home.I do it standing sitting (to my good e-friend Marlon: Yes Marlon I really DO practice my techniques sitting and they do boil down to don't get killed mop the bad guy and if not run your azz off,ol) AND on the ground.In going back I see that my brother and my cousin never got around to puttin those 2 videos up onsite,despite their assurances to the contrary.That's okay,I'll reshoot them and put them up personally.My point is? The techniques (in this case Alternating Maces) are taughtin a way which first and foremost

1) Shows a complete and utter lack of comprehension of THE ATTACKS that are coming at the defender.Now,you don't even have to have a gajillion fights to understand the dynamics of a real world push.Truth is? You can go in your living room RIGHT NOW and have your buddy give you a good ole fashioned shove in the chest and start practicing THAT way,so even the excuse:"Ohh well the instructor has never fought before" is hogwash.But what really happens in far too many Kenpo and other studios is what we see in the video: sheer stupidity combined with lunacy. I mean...that guy allegedly doing a push looks like a freakin zombie giving a chest massage.And then that GM Joe dude gets tuh gruntin like he's doing something while showing HORRIBLE technique.I have WHITE BELTS who know more and do better with that technique than good ole GM Joe.Joe's uke showed: No real world energy,intention,or motion.

Functionally speaking,every attack should be a real attack.When you punch? You PUNCH.With n00bs,you don't have to move super fast or even fast.I have my n00bs start out at 25-50% speed.But it IS a punch.You miss? You get hit.Not hard,but you learn:BLOCK THAT PUNCH.When you swing that stick? Swing it with the real intention to hit and with the real movement TO hit.Not hard at first,but if you don't block? BONK.You learn:BLOCK THAT STICK.I break out with the hard rubber knives.Get tuh slashin.Block fails? SLASH. Doesn't hurt,but it drives the point homeO THE DISARM RIGHT.Even when moving slowly? The movements of the push should result in a REAL PUSH if allowed to make contact.Not a HARD push,but a REAL PUSH.From literally the first moment of the first day,we need to train our students that way.This attack will increase in speed,power deception and complexity as the defensive skill of our students increase.ONLY THIS METHOD CAN IMPART REAL WORLD SKILL AND CONFIDENCE IN DEFENDING AN ATTACK.

2) With a realistic ATTACK,we can NOW BUILD REALISTIC DEFENSES AND COUNTERS.This is massively important because our students begin building confidence in their ability to not only STOP or BLOCK a real world attack...THEY NOW KNOW THEY CAN STOP THE ATTACKER TOO.This,folks is ACTUAL fighting.NOT yet self-defense as a whole.If you stop the attacker's attack? He/she/they can keep attacking.If you stop their attack AND STOP THEM? No more attacking.You're safe now.


3) Now that you can recognize an attack and DEFEND the attack,it's now time to learn how to NOT BE THERE for an attacker to attack you in the first place.In my GYM? THIS IS SELF DEFENSE.If you're in a conflict,you did it wrong from the jump.You're FIGHTING now.We don't teach fighters.We teach martial artists adept in the art of self-defense.Once again,you CANNOT acquire this skill in the real world if you don't train this way.

Here's the best 3 videos on the Functional Method (what Bruce Lee called ALIVENESS) that I can find.I don't 100% agree with 100% of what Matt says,but I agree with over 90% of it over 90% of the time,so that's good enough.If you have questions after that? I'd be pleased to answer more specifically.But these videos should put us on the same page.

WHY ALIVENESS? -The most important video

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2068450760833041053#docid=4838722756738846126


DELIVERY SYSTEMS AND STYLES





 
ALIVE V DEAD PATTERNS AND ALIVE VS DEAD TRAINING

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWfK6aqWiNU&feature=related


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2068450760833041053#docid=7892384548000318708

This is the gospel.It's not magic,it's not a huge revelation...we've known this for MILLENIA.However,the twin forces of intolerant traditionalism breeding ignorance and the greed of commercialism has effectively snatched the collective method of training real world martial arts in the USA of its validity.If we were to take this method and turn it on Kenpo Karate (like I have) the results would be revolutionary; hands down,we'd bridge the gap between traditional and modern arts while enjoying the benefits of both without being shackled bythe drawbacks and hindrances of either.We could and would show the public that you don't have to be a MMA guy to be in super shape,have fun,fight well,have terrific self confidence,wonderful discipline and character,and all that other stuff that the TMA and not MMA offers...plus you can and will do more than well against the MMA guys and growing number of MMA chicks.And that's BEFORE you whip out a stick,knife or gun...which you can ALSO use amazingly well thank you very freakin much.


I also recommend that you read Burton Richardson's incredible JKDU which is more palettable to us TMA guys.It's an INCREDIBLE vision and it's essentially what I've been doing with my brand of hybrid martial arts ( I just have alooot more material to draw from and very fierce street sensibilites that he lacks) long before I was aware of Burton's JKDU.

http://jkdunlimited.com/


----------



## marlon

Ras, I think it would clarify things if you videoed yourself teaching  brand new student a default technique.  Then,perhaps go over what you consider the trditional kenpo way of teaching a technique (to an advanced student so as not to confuse your new students).  That would clarify what you are seeing and comparing.  i have an impression that things are unclear in this discussion.  For example Horton talks about learning the basics of a choke in one of the last video's.  He seems to be saying learn the ideal phase then work on applying and then develop your own expression of the basic tecnique.  Which is what many of the people arguing a different position from you seem to be saying but this is a video you put up to prove your point.  That makes me think there may be an apple vs orange thing happeneing here.

Respectfully,
marlon


----------



## ATACX GYM

marlon said:


> Ras, I think it would clarify things if you videoed yourself teaching brand new student a default technique. Then,perhaps go over what you consider the trditional kenpo way of teaching a technique (to an advanced student so as not to confuse your new students). That would clarify what you are seeing and comparing. i have an impression that things are unclear in this discussion. For example Horton talks about learning the basics of a choke in one of the last video's. He seems to be saying learn the ideal phase then work on applying and then develop your own expression of the basic tecnique. Which is what many of the people arguing a different position from you seem to be saying but this is a video you put up to prove your point. That makes me think there may be an apple vs orange thing happeneing here.
> 
> Respectfully,
> marlon


 
What may be happening is that some people don't have a "functional" understanding of BOTH the IP aaaand the FM.I will respond more in depth a little later...


----------



## Inkspill

Mr Polanzo's level of skill is not indicative of all 10ths. You can't say Polanzo's skill level and rank is due to a faulty ideal phase.

I've seen lots of ****** Kenpo on youtube, I've never thought to myself "well their Kenpo sucks, better train the ATACX method (soon on DVD right?)  No, I think damn, better make sure I'm crisp and my **** is correct and practice so I don't look like that

Polanzo at least executes the technique stepping back with the correct foot

Level of skill comes down to perfection of movement, I am perfecting movement using the methods we study at my school. What can you teach me without first making the basics correct?

I studied at an art for 5 years that never studied and perfected basics. And it was ********, it didn't work. Without being correct on the fundamental foundation, the whole building is faulty.

Now you want me to train your method and you don't execute the technique correctly, do you know why we step back with the left foot? Do you execute the downward horizontal forearm block correctly? Is your timing correct? Did you bring his hands together? I look for these basic principles. The ideal phase is to study these principles, not a "this is what you will do in a self defense situation." You lose sight of that and try to turn this into a sport. You talk about, I could go here, then here, theni do this and this, you are creating a new Ideal Phase, but you're still using the ideal phase. Ideal phase with punching mitts, IP with a takedown, etc.  And still, change it paint it prime it, if the basics are incorrect it won't work. The technique is a study of the principles and concepts. if you know what is being taught and being learned, "the why's", you wouldn't be so quick to throw it all out for your "better" version. 

It is your lack of understanding and your doubt which leads you to seek for something better. The system is there all along but you haven't been taught/learned it with that level of understanding, at the least you have doubt. My teacher removes doubt, explains the things we are doing, has correct basics, teaches the details, teaches with an organized system and method, logical and progressive. You're basically asking me to leave harvard and come learn at the junior community college instead.  

I mean no disrespect, I'm being direct and not tiptoeing around, which I appreciate from you as well. I think it is great we can be direct and have this conversation


----------



## marlon

Voice is not well translated over this media, so I, too appreciate no one taking offense at direct communication.  It is an important question , "how do you train the basics?" and I am sure we are going to get a good answer from Ras that will probably promote more thought.   One point about the techniques, though, as I am not sure how AK looks at it but kempo is the technique.  I was testing a student for their first intermediate level belt and when they were attacked by the black belt with a grab, shaking them around a trip and taken down...well let's just say it was a good thing that that was not a make or break moment for the test.  afterwards, I like to take the opportunity to teach.  So, we discuss the test, what happened, what was expected, skill sets, direction for imrovement...That particular student asked what to do if they were attacked like that again, because they did not have a technique for such an attack.  My response was to apologize because obviously i had not done a good job of teaching them.  He had a technique for such an attack, it's called kempo.  the I told him that it was his job to learn that and see that in every moment of class and practice.  I thankked him for making me a better teacher.
The crap about, well I have a technique for situation X and Y and...is ridiculous for the way I teach kempo.  Kempo is the response we use.  the techniques and forms are part of the way we train kempo.
end of little rant

Respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## ATACX GYM

Inkspill said:


> Mr Polanzo's level of skill is not indicative of all 10ths. You can't say Polanzo's skill level and rank is due to a faulty ideal phase.
> 
> I've seen lots of ****** Kenpo on youtube, I've never thought to myself "well their Kenpo sucks, better train the ATACX method (soon on DVD right?) No, I think damn, better make sure I'm crisp and my **** is correct and practice so I don't look like that
> 
> Polanzo at least executes the technique stepping back with the correct foot
> 
> Level of skill comes down to perfection of movement, I am perfecting movement using the methods we study at my school. What can you teach me without first making the basics correct?
> 
> I studied at an art for 5 years that never studied and perfected basics. And it was ********, it didn't work. Without being correct on the fundamental foundation, the whole building is faulty.
> 
> Now you want me to train your method and you don't execute the technique correctly, do you know why we step back with the left foot? Do you execute the downward horizontal forearm block correctly? Is your timing correct? Did you bring his hands together? I look for these basic principles. The ideal phase is to study these principles, not a "this is what you will do in a self defense situation." You lose sight of that and try to turn this into a sport. You talk about, I could go here, then here, theni do this and this, you are creating a new Ideal Phase, but you're still using the ideal phase. Ideal phase with punching mitts, IP with a takedown, etc. And still, change it paint it prime it, if the basics are incorrect it won't work. The technique is a study of the principles and concepts. if you know what is being taught and being learned, "the why's", you wouldn't be so quick to throw it all out for your "better" version.
> 
> It is your lack of understanding and your doubt which leads you to seek for something better. The system is there all along but you haven't been taught/learned it with that level of understanding, at the least you have doubt. My teacher removes doubt, explains the things we are doing, has correct basics, teaches the details, teaches with an organized system and method, logical and progressive. You're basically asking me to leave harvard and come learn at the junior community college instead.
> 
> I mean no disrespect, I'm being direct and not tiptoeing around, which I appreciate from you as well. I think it is great we can be direct and have this conversation


 
^^^SEE? I LIKE THIS GUY TOO.THAT'S HOW YOU TALK TO A MAN.I APPRECIATE THAT.

Okay...now here's a basic point of fact man: if you're practicing something nonfunctional? Your basics suck.Period.Because if anything is the case? Your basics should translate DIRECTLY into what you do EXACTLY how you do it.There is no way that you can start with the ideal and arrive with the functional.Tell an Olympic sprinter to "ideally" sprint.He'll give you the "functional" middle finger.In fact? The in-depth sciences of human performance are the most detailed basics around and we functional folks use it RELIGIOUSLY aaaaand SCIENTIFICALLY but most importantly--wait for it--FUNCTIONALLY.So the moment you separate functionality from whatever you do? You condemn whatever you do to permanent inferiority.Period and that's all.There is no way to "ideally" jab.You delve into the depths and details,the art and science of jabbing,you progress step by step in complexity difficulty and resistance and pow! You have tremendously mechanically sound,potent,functional jabbing happening.You jab EXACTLY how you've trained.It's the Functional Model which raised the art and science of training to dizzying heights,with the most intimate analysis of form and functioning and the conjoining of the two in heretofore unknown levels of performance.The "ideal" doesn't even have an "ideal" as to how to bedazzle with training methodologies CAUSE IT DOESN'T HAVE ONE THAT'S FUNCTIONAL.


When you train functionally? You minutely analyze everything and THEN YOU CAN PROVE THAT WHAT YOU DO IS ON POINT BY ACTUALLY DEMONSTRATING SIMPLE YET HIGHLY DETAILED BASICS AND THEN FIGHT EXACTLY PRECISELY HOW WE MOVE AND TRAIN.You don't NEED to make excuses in a brain dead futile attempt to explain why you're not fighting EXACTLY how you do the Ideal Phase.You're not fighting that way because it sucks it's unrealistic and it'd be like someone is returning your donkey to your outstretched arms...because you'd get your *** handed to you.Reliably. 

Sooo...me using focus mitts makes you think that I'm training primarily for sports? Lol.I could unveil some things from my past that would debunk that but I have a better idea: I guess that since the IDF is training Krav Maga using sportive protective gear,the Isreali Defense Forces are training to enter the local point fighting or MMA tourney.They must be gettin their sport on.





 
Guess that since SWAT and other guys wear Tony Blauer's gear,they must be training for the UFC.





 
I guess that Frank Cucci,former Navy SEAL from NAVY SEAL TEAM 6,trains for sport because he used MT pads.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fj7eww1Julw&feature=related

You get the point now.Your assumptions are fatally flawed.Just like the physical articulation of the IP.That mess is anus.Period.I'm saying this again: if you fight in the way that the IP advocates? You suck and you'll get your hat handed to you.Deservedly so.There is no way to pretty that up and build a wall of flowery words that can and will hide the blunt unstoppable reality of the anusness of the IP's physical articulation.Period.

Btw when I say your basics suck when you do it the IP way? And when you say "at least Polanzo stepped back with the same foot" and similar stuff which makes me lol? You know what I say to that?

Look at SUPREME GRANDMASTER ED PARKER:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SIQ7ONlE1I&feature=channel_video_title

Look at me here:





 
You have no leg to stand on.GMEP did exactly the opposite of what the IP indicates,and he did it because he took the techniques and analyzed them by putting these techniques in the context of street combat.Now,I only just today got that video from Jim Miller's people from KenpoKarate365,which is his peeps' Youtube Channel.As you can see? The video of me doing the Alternating Maces a year ago...and I put this technique in the context of omg A SD SCENARIO AND LOOKED AT THE MANY WAYS TO APPLY IT.That's functional.And guess what? Neither GMEP or I looked like the IP.We looked totally different BECAUSE WE'RE TOTALLY FUNCTIONAL.Again...you have no leg to stand on.I reached on my own with no connection to how GMEP moves a very similar expression.Now find an IP like that.You can't? Because there isn't one? Awrighty then.You.Have.No.Leg.To.Stand.On.

Btw I don't care if you train like me or not.You wanna train the "ideal"? Fine.Goodie goodie gum drops and graham crackers for you.No prob with me.Have at it and have fun and wish you well,my martial arts brother.But the moment you say:"The IP is functional" or something like that? Weeellll see we have the empirical proof of the contrary,and championing te IP as in any way valid? It's a delusion; it's dangerous to the many good people who will fall for that hokum and they could find out in a dark alley somewhere with their life blood spilling out of them that they were hoodwinked.

Point blank: I'm looking at the physical articulation of the IP.It is anus.There is no justification for its anusness.There is no defense that can withstand even the most half-hearted analysis by a brain dead rock.IT. IS.THE.PHYSICAL.ARTICULATION.OF.THE.IP.THAT.IS.HORRIFICALLY.NONFUNCTIONAL.IN.ANY.REGARD.
Nonfunctional basics which suck bad.Nonfunctional training methods which are nonexistent or suck bad.Nonfunctional fighting which sucks worst of all.There is no way that such a combination of suckitude will give rise to any elevated discussion on anything other than the overwhelming gluteus that the technique is.There is no way that you can make anything other gluteus out of this kind of gluteus.

And lastly Inkspill man? You said Polanzo stepped back with the orrect foot.You're wrong man.The "correct foot" is WHATEVER FOOT YOU NEED to step out of the way of the attack and avoid the attack.THAT'S the correct foot.The circumstances and environment dictate your response.You ever think that you might have to execute the Alternating Maces or whatever stepping in a direction OTHER than the one you were shown in the IP? Apparently not.What if you can't step anywhere? What if you're seated? What if there is traffic preventing you from stepping back with "the correct foot" or what if you are in a parking lot or stairwell or amidst a crowd and BANG! It's on and and it's fighting time.What if your back is to the wall or the drop of a roof is behind you (not so far fetched,Inkspill; one of my teens resorted to this technique while fighting on a rooftop) and you CAN'T step back? If you trained functionally you would have seen INSTANTLY the fatal flaws in your argument because you would have been trained in a reality tha prevents your misconceptions and misunderstandings. You would not mistake the presence for training equipment for the mandate of sport-only or sport-oriented technique or training.You would not make a contention that the movements of Ed Parker himself and their near identical similarity with mine would called upon to completely annihilate and refute.

You would have known better,shown better,done better,and BE better...if you were training functionally.

But you don't have to if you don't want to.And that's cool with me.If you want to train the IP for whatever reason you wish? Go for it.But contentions that the PHYSICAL ARTCULATION OF THE IP--meaning that stuff thatwe see EXACTLY AS IT'S SHOWN--teaches intricate functionable beneficial real world basics in ANY way...most especially in any way that equals or trumps the FM? Hell no.The real world slaughters that contention in every factual way.That's a contention that needs to be challenged and crushed straightway for the benefit of everyone...you too.And anyone reading this post.


----------



## Inkspill

ATACX GYM said:


> ^^^SEE? I LIKE THIS GUY TOO.THAT'S HOW YOU TALK TO A MAN.I APPRECIATE THAT.


 
; )   I'm going to address your points as best I can, again thanks for the perspective and conversation



ATACX GYM said:


> Okay...now here's a basic point of fact man: if you're practicing something nonfunctional? Your basics suck.Period.Because if anything is the case? Your basics should translate DIRECTLY into what you do EXACTLY how you do it.


 
my basics are translating directly, so I'm not practicing non functional stuff. I think maybe we are coming from the same place or at least we're both using a functional method, but I perhaps am finding your points to be directed toward my art, and maybe your points are more directed toward the junky Kenpo?



ATACX GYM said:


> There is no way that you can start with the ideal and arrive with the functional.Tell an Olympic sprinter to "ideally" sprint.He'll give you the "functional" middle finger.In fact? The in-depth sciences of human performance are the most detailed basics around and we functional folks use it RELIGIOUSLY aaaaand SCIENTIFICALLY but most importantly--wait for it--FUNCTIONALLY.So the moment you separate functionality from whatever you do? You condemn whatever you do to permanent inferiority.Period and that's all.There is no way to "ideally" jab.


 
we don't ideally jab around my school. it may be that we are already using functional methods like I mentioned before, or maybe because I've boxed before..?



ATACX GYM said:


> You delve into the depths and details,the art and science of jabbing,you progress step by step in complexity difficulty and resistance and pow! You have tremendously mechanically sound,potent,functional jabbing happening.You jab EXACTLY how you've trained.It's the Functional Model which raised the art and science of training to dizzying heights,with the most intimate analysis of form and functioning and the conjoining of the two in heretofore unknown levels of performance.The "ideal" doesn't even have an "ideal" as to how to bedazzle with training methodologies CAUSE IT DOESN'T HAVE ONE THAT'S FUNCTIONAL.


 
we aren't ideally practicing the basics, but we are practicing techniques in ways like "here is a possible situation for you to practice the principles and concepts, when it comes to a self defense situation you will respond with whatever is appropriate to the situation"




ATACX GYM said:


> When you train functionally? You minutely analyze everything and THEN YOU CAN PROVE THAT WHAT YOU DO IS ON POINT BY ACTUALLY DEMONSTRATING SIMPLE YET HIGHLY DETAILED BASICS AND THEN FIGHT EXACTLY PRECISELY HOW WE MOVE AND TRAIN.You don't NEED to make excuses in a brain dead futile attempt to explain why you're not fighting EXACTLY how you do the Ideal Phase.You're not fighting that way because it sucks it's unrealistic and it'd be like someone is returning your donkey to your outstretched arms...because you'd get your *** handed to you.Reliably.


 
again, I'm thinking we might have more similar methods than perceived. we have resisting opponents and we work the techniques making the movements work. this prepares us to make the opponent move under our intention.



ATACX GYM said:


> Sooo...me using focus mitts makes you think that I'm training primarily for sports? Lol.I could unveil some things from my past that would debunk that but I have a better idea: I guess that since the IDF is training Krav Maga using sportive protective gear,the Isreali Defense Forces are training to enter the local point fighting or MMA tourney.They must be gettin their sport on.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Guess that since SWAT and other guys wear Tony Blauer's gear,they must be training for the UFC.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I guess that Frank Cucci,former Navy SEAL from NAVY SEAL TEAM 6,trains for sport because he used MT pads.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fj7eww1Julw&feature=related


 
I'm not saying that strike pads makes it a sport endeavor at all. more that I felt you were taking a sport approach rather than self defense. if the guy pushes you that far back, why not just leave at that point, why stand off against him in a fighting stance, why let him push you? 



ATACX GYM said:


> You get the point now.Your assumptions are fatally flawed.Just like the physical articulation of the IP.That mess is anus.Period.I'm saying this again: if you fight in the way that the IP advocates? You suck and you'll get your hat handed to you.Deservedly so.There is no way to pretty that up and build a wall of flowery words that can and will hide the blunt unstoppable reality of the anusness of the IP's physical articulation.Period.


 
agreed, it's not intended to be your self defense response. 



ATACX GYM said:


> Btw when I say your basics suck when you do it the IP way? And when you say "at least Polanzo stepped back with the same foot" and similar stuff which makes me lol? You know what I say to that?
> 
> Look at SUPREME GRANDMASTER ED PARKER:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SIQ7ONlE1I&feature=channel_video_title
> 
> Look at me here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You have no leg to stand on.GMEP did exactly the opposite of what the IP indicates,and he did it because he took the techniques and analyzed them by putting these techniques in the context of street combat.Now,I only just today got that video from Jim Miller's people from KenpoKarate365,which is his peeps' Youtube Channel.As you can see? The video of me doing the Alternating Maces a year ago...and I put this technique in the context of omg A SD SCENARIO AND LOOKED AT THE MANY WAYS TO APPLY IT.That's functional.And guess what? Neither GMEP or I looked like the IP.We looked totally different BECAUSE WE'RE TOTALLY FUNCTIONAL.Again...you have no leg to stand on.I reached on my own with no connection to how GMEP moves a very similar expression.Now find an IP like that.You can't? Because there isn't one? Awrighty then.You.Have.No.Leg.To.Stand.On.


 
I meant that you stepped back with the incorrect leg, incorrect in the ideal phase. do you understand the why's of the technique? why do we step back with the left leg? answer me that at least.




ATACX GYM said:


> Btw I don't care if you train like me or not.You wanna train the "ideal"? Fine.Goodie goodie gum drops and graham crackers for you.No prob with me.Have at it and have fun and wish you well,my martial arts brother.But the moment you say:"The IP is functional" or something like that? Weeellll see we have the empirical proof of the contrary,and championing te IP as in any way valid? It's a delusion; it's dangerous to the many good people who will fall for that hokum and they could find out in a dark alley somewhere with their life blood spilling out of them that they were hoodwinked.


 
fair enough. I have had the b.s. and the quality, I can feel the difference. I'm sorry I went into the other stuff about you making a program for your stuff, that was off topic and I felt like I was being "sold" some snake oil, etc.



ATACX GYM said:


> Point blank: I'm looking at the physical articulation of the IP.It is anus.There is no justification for its anusness.There is no defense that can withstand even the most half-hearted analysis by a brain dead rock.IT. IS.THE.PHYSICAL.ARTICULATION.OF.THE.IP.THAT.IS.HORRIFICALLY.NONFUNCTIONAL.IN.ANY.REGARD.
> Nonfunctional basics which suck bad.Nonfunctional training methods which are nonexistent or suck bad.Nonfunctional fighting which sucks worst of all.There is no way that such a combination of suckitude will give rise to any elevated discussion on anything other than the overwhelming gluteus that the technique is.There is no way that you can make anything other gluteus out of this kind of gluteus.
> 
> And lastly Inkspill man? You said Polanzo stepped back with the orrect foot.You're wrong man.The "correct foot" is WHATEVER FOOT YOU NEED to step out of the way of the attack and avoid the attack.THAT'S the correct foot.The circumstances and environment dictate your response.You ever think that you might have to execute the Alternating Maces or whatever stepping in a direction OTHER than the one you were shown in the IP? Apparently not.What if you can't step anywhere? What if you're seated? What if there is traffic preventing you from stepping back with "the correct foot" or what if you are in a parking lot or stairwell or amidst a crowd and BANG! It's on and and it's fighting time.What if your back is to the wall or the drop of a roof is behind you (not so far fetched,Inkspill; one of my teens resorted to this technique while fighting on a rooftop) and you CAN'T step back? If you trained functionally you would have seen INSTANTLY the fatal flaws in your argument because you would have been trained in a reality tha prevents your misconceptions and misunderstandings. You would not mistake the presence for training equipment for the mandate of sport-only or sport-oriented technique or training.You would not make a contention that the movements of Ed Parker himself and their near identical similarity with mine would called upon to completely annihilate and refute.


 
I agree that in a self defense situation, one should do whatever is necessary and fit the situation, but I believe in the process of starting with a fixed trainable method to study the movements. there are reasons behind the techniques! concepts and principles, movements that are all useful, and the techniques are a way of studying a situation in which this might occur. so now if somebody goes to shove me or grab me, etc, I will respond with whatever natural reaction occurs, training the techniques refines my movements and teaches me words with which to form sentences, etc. 



ATACX GYM said:


> You would have known better,shown better,done better,and BE better...if you were training functionally.
> 
> But you don't have to if you don't want to.And that's cool with me.If you want to train the IP for whatever reason you wish? Go for it.But contentions that the PHYSICAL ARTCULATION OF THE IP--meaning that stuff thatwe see EXACTLY AS IT'S SHOWN--teaches intricate functionable beneficial real world basics in ANY way...most especially in any way that equals or trumps the FM? Hell no.The real world slaughters that contention in every factual way.That's a contention that needs to be challenged and crushed straightway for the benefit of everyone...you too.And anyone reading this post.


 
again, I think there may be some similar things we are doing and there are points I agree with you on.. I am enjoying our conversation. too bad we aren't in the same area so we could discuss in person and perhaps explore/train some various methods and compare


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## ATACX GYM

Inkspill said:


> ; ) I'm going to address your points as best I can, again thanks for the perspective and conversation
> 
> 
> 
> my basics are translating directly, so I'm not practicing non functional stuff. I think maybe we are coming from the same place or at least we're both using a functional method, but I perhaps am finding your points to be directed toward my art, and maybe your points are more directed toward the junky Kenpo?
> 
> 
> 
> we don't ideally jab around my school. it may be that we are already using functional methods like I mentioned before, or maybe because I've boxed before..?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree that in a self defense situation, one should do whatever is necessary and fit the situation, but I believe in the process of starting with a fixed trainable method to study the movements. there are reasons behind the techniques! concepts and principles, movements that are all useful, and the techniques are a way of studying a situation in which this might occur. so now if somebody goes to shove me or grab me, etc, I will respond with whatever natural reaction occurs, training the techniques refines my movements and teaches me words with which to form sentences, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> again, I think there may be some similar things we are doing and there are points I agree with you on.. I am enjoying our conversation. too bad we aren't in the same area so we could discuss in person and perhaps explore/train some various methods and compare


 

I am NOT dissin Kenpo.I'm Kenpo,lol.As I've stated numerous times before,I don't think Kenpo sucks or anything.The discussion came about because some reviewers of my videos proceeded to pillory and disparage it because my variants didn't exactly adhere to their interpretation of what the IP is (nvm that their interpretation isn't universal).From there the conversation centered around the IP and specifically upon the physical articulation of the movements,their functionality,and their correlation to the elevated principles behind these movements...which find a parallel in all functionally trained martial systems and sports.I pilloried the IP as being nonfunctional.Not Kenpo.Not your Kenpo or anyone else's Kenpo.I said the IP sucks nonfunctional anal regions.It has zero correlation to any elevated or refined principles that are supposed to be had by performing the IP in this sucktastic way.It'd be like somebody telling you that by trying to jab like a epileptic T.Rex having a spazz attack you'll learn the secrets of Ali's jab.No you won't.You'll learn how to jab like a spastic T.Rex.This common sense assertion was me with aghast screeches and "oh-no-he-didn't" type posts.Yeah well...all that comes to a simple empirical test: Do EXACTLY what the IP shows you to do when you're under attack.Observe the annihilation that you receive.Now do EXACTLY what I show you to dbserve the annihilation that you level upon yon foolish mortals who mess with thee.And then the magnificent purveyors of the written word and senior power lords of posts came onsite and said that the IP works and that we're children.No,the IP doesn't work and that's that...so I asked people to show themselves SPARRING with EXACTLY the techniques that they show in the IP.Nobody took up the challenge because public annihilation would ensue and we all know it.That's when that crap about:"Oh,there are lessons to be learned in the IP that you apparently are not intellectually keen enough to grasp,dear Padawon.Listen to the Jedi Council" started.There ARE lessons in the IP.Those lessons boil down to the multiple levels of anus that it is."Oh the IP are minilabs designated to initiate discussion." They will generate discussions and it'll be something like:"This ***** SUCKS!! Screw Karate aaaand martial arts.Let's get a gun." or "This ***** SUCKS!! Let's go to the MMA gym or Muay Thai or bjj or wresling or Judo or boxing or something that WORKS!" The end result is that Kenpo loses.Or worse? Some delusional people will try The Rectal Orangutan and the Parsimonious Penguin because Sensei Contract-and-Cash told them that it will work;and discover in a dark alleyway somewhere with their blood leaking that they'd been swindled.

That is NOT funny. That is NOT martial arts.That is NOT functional.THAT IS THE IP AS IT'S CURRENTLY BEING CONVEYED.


The physical aspects of the IP should be entirely scrapped or dramatically upgraded and functionalized,and in the process? You will learn all the intricate requisite basics,you'll learn the ins and the outs of it.You'll discover that every possible benefit you thought may flow from the fake goofy nonfunctional stuff is actually and can only be actually the sole province of the REAL stuff; the Functional/Alive Method.

I didn't draw opinions about how you or anyone else trains.I have NO IDEA how you train.If you like it? Good enough for me.My entire focus has been the fact that there is no elevation of intellect,perception, technique or principles to be had by performing anus manuevers other than an intimacy with anusness.On the other hand...there is no form of basics that is more in depth,intricate,direct,fun,applicable and magnificent than that of the Functional/Alive Method.In fact? The science and art of human performance from physics to kinesiology,biomechanics,psychology,exercise physiology, and a bunch of other stuff is defined and delved into by the Functional Method.Ed Parker Sr. knew this and that's why you can see him doing exactly as I did (long before I ever saw a video clip of Mr.Parker Sr. doing ANYTHING) in my Alternating Maces video.What tickles me so much is that when Mr.Parker talks about "having one definition" when you step one way and how "the same movement has another definition" when you step or do it another way? That is EXACTLY EXACTLY EXACTLY EXACTLY what I do.It is THE HEART of functionality.See the jab.Learn the intricacies of the jab.Practice the jab.Correctly.LOTS AND LOTS AND LOTS OF TIMES.NEVER STOP.Spar with the jab,and do it exactly how you were taught...against skilled,conditioned,focused and talented resistance.I do that with Kenpo and maybe you do too (I take it a bit farther with a few other stuffbthat I do but that's not germane to the point here).

None of the functional stuff you do OUTSIDE the IP--which is nonfunctional--suddenly prevents the IP from being nonfunctional.It's still anus.


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## ATACX GYM

marlon said:


> Voice is not well translated over this media, so I, too appreciate no one taking offense at direct communication. It is an important question , "how do you train the basics?" and I am sure we are going to get a good answer from Ras that will probably promote more thought. One point about the techniques, though, as I am not sure how AK looks at it but kempo is the technique. I was testing a student for their first intermediate level belt and when they were attacked by the black belt with a grab, shaking them around a trip and taken down...well let's just say it was a good thing that that was not a make or break moment for the test. afterwards, I like to take the opportunity to teach. So, we discuss the test, what happened, what was expected, skill sets, direction for imrovement...That particular student asked what to do if they were attacked like that again, because they did not have a technique for such an attack. My response was to apologize because obviously i had not done a good job of teaching them. He had a technique for such an attack, it's called kempo. the I told him that it was his job to learn that and see that in every moment of class and practice. I thankked him for making me a better teacher.
> The crap about, well I have a technique for situation X and Y and...is ridiculous for the way I teach kempo. Kempo is the response we use. the techniques and forms are part of the way we train kempo.
> end of little rant
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon


 

^^^This is EXACTLY right.This is ALSO a CARDINAL aspect of FUNCTIONALISM.If,for instance,you can't do the Alternating Maces in conjunction with any other block than the inside block or you can't do it in any other position other than standing and facing your opponent etc.? You CAN'T DO ALTERNATING MACES.If you don't train the proper basic realities of a particular technique (like chances are very high that the pushing attack in Alternating Maces will LAND AND PROPEL YOU OFF BALANCE,or the reality that the exact same block used in Alter.Ma. will work vs punches weapons and throw objects so train all of them) we will discover what we're missing under fire.But if we keep a Functional training method in our gyms? We're likely to find the problem IN THE GYM and NOT have it sprung on us IN THE STREET. Lo and behold,look at what Marlon did.He saw his student having problems,he discussed the matter,addressed the issue and sent the student back into the fray again.Guess what? Marlon armed the kid with functional knowledge,which will lead to functional training and success v the attack that he faced.If Marlon did what too many defenders of the IP do--teach the kid ANOTHER technique THAT WILL FAIL because it WASN'T TRAINED FUNCTIONALLY--the kid would get thumped again.And this cycle of thumpery would continue--with Marlon teaching the kid nonfunctional techniques that speedily become compromised by the reality of combat yet again--until the kid gets discouraged and quits karate altogether,leaves Marlon's gym for another one like MT or bjj or MMA),or just does something else noncombative altogether.

But Marlon did the functional thing.He realized straightway that the kid needed to understand that KEMPO IS HIS TECHNIQUE and shouldered the responsibility of passing that knowledge on better.Marlon will then teach the kid functionally and the kid will perform functionally and sucessfully.YAY MARLON.That's whassup.

And if the student isn't a kid? My bad.Please substitute the term "student" in all areas where KID pops up.


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## ATACX GYM

Now that I know more of the history of how the IP came about thanks to Doc's post about this matter in THE IP thread? I see that I was every bit as right as I proclaimed. Which means that DTS is clearly Motion Kenpo of the nonfunctional variety. If you can't fight with it EXACTLY AS YOU TRAIN WITH IT...and you CAN'T...then it's dys-or-non-functional. It's not working like that.


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