# Learning Sub Standard WC or no WC at all?



## Seeker (Mar 5, 2010)

I'm begging to suspect that the WC I am learning isn't all that it can be. 
Can you learn sub standard WC and fill in the gaps later by learning from books or from others like the knowledgeable people on this forum or am I just better off dropping it and moving on to another art?


----------



## dancingalone (Mar 5, 2010)

Seek the best teacher you can have regardless of style.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Mar 5, 2010)

What makes you think it is sub-standard?


----------



## melry88 (Mar 5, 2010)

Seeker, I too would be interested in what you feel is subpar about what you are learning?


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 5, 2010)

everyone sucks to somebody.


----------



## blindsage (Mar 5, 2010)

Flying Crane said:


> everyone sucks to somebody.


 
Except Chuck Norris.


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 5, 2010)

blindsage said:


> Except Chuck Norris.


 
yeah.  he just plain sucks.


----------



## bully (Mar 5, 2010)

Flying Crane said:


> yeah.  he just plain sucks.



Uh Oh, you're going to get roundhoused.

Seeker, I understand what you are saying, I too said to a mate yesterday that it is better to do a different lineage than no WC at all. Whilst I would kill to live near Kevin Chan, *insert your favourite master here*, I just get whatever I can here. 

I too am interested in what is subpar about what you are learning.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Mar 5, 2010)

Flying Crane said:


> yeah. he just plain sucks.


 
:jaw-dropping:

Tell me you didn't just anger Chuck


----------



## Seeker (Mar 5, 2010)

Well, I'm not sure I'm even coming back to this thread after 'someone' angered Chuck Norris. I don't want to get caught in the flurry of round houses. 

Ok, I'll make it quick.



No sparing so to speak, no opportunity to spar ever but for the black sash test. That's it.


Being good at Chi Sau = being an unstoppable fighter.


Questionable tactics in dealing with other style fighters like Quan Sau to stop a double leg take down, rising Fak Sau to stop a high hook punch.


No instruction ever on how to generate power in punches. Terms like rooting and structure are thrown around yet never fully explained.


Seldom ever do our drills deal with anything outside of WC, like a haymaker, etc.


Kuen Kuit has never been uttered once in my Kwoon. I learned the term and what it means from the interwebs.... I'm sure there is more that I cannot think of at this time.
Reading these forums, seeing how knowledgeable people are it just seems like there's a lot lacking where I am.


----------



## hunt1 (Mar 5, 2010)

Overall sounds like a common situation. Was there myself a view times.

 First remember if you ever do get in a real fight the only person there to help you is you. No matter what a teacher teaches it is up to you to do what is necessary to learn how to apply it.

 No Sparring? No Problem go looking for folks to spar. I ran adds in Chicago newspapers and posted fliers in boxing gyms and other martial arts schools looking for folks to spar with. I learned how to apply wing chun for real at the price of some insanity at times but i got what i wanted.

 Chi Sau= fighting skill.  Who cares. If you know it doesn't then it doesn't matter what anyone else in school thinks.

 Same for tactics. you will find out what works for you and what doesn't from sparring. Everyone is different so you maybe surprised. What doesn't work for person A may work for person B etc.

Drills tie back to sparring outside of class. Some folks will be happy to work their drills vs. your drills. Stuff like that will fix the problem.

 Power and Kuit well that's not good but both can be filled in over time.


----------



## profesormental (Mar 6, 2010)

Greetings.

I think your suspicions are founded. Yet it is better to have something and work with what you have, until you can get something better.

You can fill the blanks here and the internets. Feel free to ask any questions you want.

Enjoy!

Juan Mercado


----------



## dosk3n (Mar 8, 2010)

I would stay stick with it. You may only be learning to use wing chun against wing chun, or thats how it may feel but youre actually learning to use it against every style. As you will hear from Jin (ChinaBoxer), He says WC is only a concept and I fully agree. You see your opponent only has 2 arms and to put it simply each arm is only going to attack either inner gate like a straight punch or outer gate like a hook. Different style attacks will look different like as I just said a boxing outer gate attack can be a hook while in wing chun it could be a turning straight punch which look completely different but they are still entering your space from the same direction. either way when you take it down to its basic form the concept of defence and the move you use is still the same so you just adapt it.

We also use Faksau to defend against a hook in our school and I am happy with this and it works for me as it is very easy to go into Lapsau straight from here.

Thats my few pennies on the though.

Dean.


----------



## zepedawingchun (Mar 8, 2010)

Seeker said:


> I'm begging to suspect that the WC I am learning isn't all that it can be.
> Can you learn sub standard WC and fill in the gaps later by learning from books or from others like the knowledgeable people on this forum or am I just better off dropping it and moving on to another art?


 
Yes, it is possible to be studing sub-standard Wing Chun. I won't name names, but a few years back I met a couple of guys who studied from someone I suspected of not really teaching Wing Chun or even knowing the whole system. The 2 guys learned SNT from this guy and then they learned the remaining forms from videos (by their Sifu). When they came to visit me, I asked if they would chi sao with me, and they were terrible. The spent the next 2 hours fixing or trying to fix their stances, hand positions, structure, everything . They claimed 4 years with this guy when I met them. A few years later, these same 2 guys were off teaching, running a public school, and I'm sure they didn't do anything to improve their skills in the least bit.

So yeah, you can learn sub-par Wing Chun. It happens all the time from people who study for a year or 2 and think that's all they need. Think they know what WC is all about and go out and teach.


----------



## Poor Uke (Mar 9, 2010)

What hunt1 said go find sparring partner, hell even train a style that incorporates sparring as well (sorry I'm a cross training heathen).

It is one of Wing Chun's failings that it doesnt incorporate sparring (yes I know why, no I dont agree, lets leave it there) IMO

For me WC only became realistic when I started sparring and training other styles.

Good luck


----------



## zepedawingchun (Mar 9, 2010)

Poor Uke said:


> What hunt1 said go find sparring partner, hell even train a style that incorporates sparring as well (sorry I'm a cross training heathen).
> 
> It is one of Wing Chun's failings that it doesnt incorporate sparring (yes I know why, no I dont agree, lets leave it there) IMO
> 
> ...


 
I've been to some karate schools that don't spar.  I don't think Wing Chun schools are being any different.  But I do think it is up to the individual sifus (or instructors in M.A. schools) to incorporate sparring into their students training regimes to make them better martial artists.  I know I do.  It only makes good sense to spar, it's just another way to learn to use your Wing Chun, or any martial art, effectively.


----------



## profesormental (Mar 10, 2010)

Greetings.

This is a recurring theme for me... and I don't mind repeating my assessment:

It don't matter the style or whatever. It is a question of the individual instructor and the instructor's (and students) willingness and ableness to become better skilled and more knowledgeable.

Many schools lack a leader or teacher that can improve with the times. Some teach as they were taught and so on, for years.

Martial Methods have improved over time, because people train and make it better. See videos from fights in the 50's, 60's and 70's and I'm sure we have beginner and intermediate level students that can surely kick their asses.

Wing Chun is Eternal Springtime - always growing, developing in a nurturing environment. So sometimes, your teacher doesn't have the knowledge or skill to make you better. And that is ok!

I wouldn't expect to learn Functional Analysis from a 1st grade math teacher... (exaggeration for stressing the point, not for comparison!)

Thus just make sure that you are getting better. If you can't with your current instructor, get in contact with another instructor or ask for help.

Hope that helps.

Juan Mercado Robles

P.S. I remember that in my classes we sparred almost every day. Chi sao is intermediate to learn and ingrain reflexes safely. Sparring ingrained it with adrenal stress full on. The next step is Practice Combat Scenarios so we can discuss solutions to violent situations...

Violence does not occur in a vacuum.


----------



## Devlin76 (Mar 10, 2010)

This is an interesting question.  

------------------



Seeker said:


> Well, I'm not sure I'm even coming back to this thread after 'someone' angered Chuck Norris. I don't want to get caught in the flurry of round houses.
> 
> Ok, I'll make it quick.
> 
> ...


 
------------------

So I gather you do not think the actual techniques, forms, principles, or drills being taught are of a poor quality.  You just think the teacher is not including important things for practical application like sparring.  Correct?  

As long as the actual wing chun being taught is at least pretty good, I would keep training as hard as you can with your current teacher.  You can always find a couple of like-minded fellow students and start up a practice group that just works on sparring and defensive drills for random attacks.  Or find a boxing gym and see if someone will work out with you.  And get a heavy bag.  If you aren't sure if your punches have power, you need to start hitting something  

But to actually answer the title question.  I would say that sub standard wing chun is better than no wing chun at all.  As long as it isn't too bad.


----------



## Devlin76 (Mar 10, 2010)

I just realized my answer could be taken to mean learning sub standard wing chun is better than learning excellent ______ style.  I definitely did not mean to imply that.  If someone really wants to study wing chun then I think an "okay" wing chung instructor is better than none.  But if style isn't a precondition then definitely just go for the best instructor in your area.


----------



## punisher73 (Mar 10, 2010)

If your goal is to only learn how to fight, then I would find a school that fits the bill.  If your goal is to learn WC as both an art and a fighting form.  I would suggest staying where you are at and getting training partners outside of class that can help you work on drills to improve your WC.  I would also find dvds etc. in your lineage that you can use to supplement areas that you find lacking.  Also, get to seminars etc. and train with other WC people.

http://www.awcaonline.com/index.html

Offers alot of work books to supplement your training and drills to work on and how to use your structure etc.


----------



## vankuen (Mar 10, 2010)

The other thing to remember is not to take everything you're taught at face value.  Learning is done from three perspectives, (1) behavioral, (2) cognitive, and (3) social.  

In a nutshell, behavioral learning is operant conditioning.  If in participating in WC you find your needs are met and it gives you a sense of satisfaction, continuing to train is the obvious answer.  If by training in WC you end with negative consquences, the natural response would be not to train in it any longer.   This answer isn't always black and white because of the fact that different teachers have varying levels of efficacy in their pedagogical model.  

Cognitively, you've realized through logical thought and reasoning that there's something missing in the equation.  That you're not getting realistic results because frankly, no one there trains in a manner which gives them _honest_ feedback.  That's why you see unproven techniques being used against things like a single or double leg takedown.  I guarantee you, a gwan sau will not work to stop someone's shoot.  But again you knew this already...

From a social perspective, your cognitive ideas have been reinforced through the many you tube videos of terrible iterations of wing chun, people who can't fight, people who perform terribly in the actual APPLICATION of wing chun.  Your very own class's experience with actual fighting or even sparring.  What are the best people doing to get better?  That's what you should be looking at.  Style aside...what METHOD of training provides the greatest results?


----------



## KamonGuy2 (Mar 15, 2010)

Seeker, I would love to know what school you are training under (please feel free to PM me if you dont want to name and shame over here)

Please note that certain styles will have different ways of doing things. The famous explanation that all martial arts are climbing a mountain and that each one takes a different path rings true here

Certainly sparring is important to gauge pressure. Even a little bit at the end of class wouldnt kill anyone
Chi sao is done numerous different ways - there is no right or wrong way of doing it, as long as your instructor explains to you the purpose of training you in that particular way
Certainly it will not make you an unstoppable fighter - there is no such thing (except for Chuck)
That is bad that your instructor wont teach you how to generate punching power - Kevin chan did several seminars and sessions with us explaining the difference in hitting and striking
You dont deal with haymakers? Holy ****!
As for Kuen Kuit - do you not have a membership book or licence that has these layed out?

It sounds like you are gettinga rough deal. Where are you living? Get to other schools and have a look at the differences. I did this when I was a beginner at Kamon and was shocked on how good my school was 
I know everyone says that, but seriously, you will truly appreciate how good/bad your particular school is by visiting other venues

Good luck friend


----------

