# Kung Fu?



## wowzer77 (Jul 13, 2006)

Hi, I'm new to these forums and seeking some advice.  My ultimate goal as a martial artist is to become a Jeet Kune Do expert.  But I don't want to take a formal class for it.  Instead, I want to study a variety of other martial arts and combine all their best aspects to create my own interperatation of Jeet Kune Do.  I currently have experience in some great defense drills, basic kicking and punching techniques, and some breathing techniques...In a few months I am starting Wing Chun classes to improve my speed with my hands/arms.   I have heard that the northern styles of kung fu focus on the legs and kicking, and I've been wondering which style would be best for me.  I've heard of Northern Praying Mantis and Mei Hua Quan.  Any advice for which style I'm looking for? I've looked on Wikipedia and seen that there are MANY kung fu styles.  Just trying to narrow things down a little.  Thanks in advance.


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## Drac (Jul 14, 2006)

I believe that you need formal classes just to have a base to build on , meaning a good working knowledge of strikes, blocks and movement..That's my opinion for what its worth...Once again welcome to MT...


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## 7starmantis (Jul 14, 2006)

Welcome to MT. Its an oversimplification to say Northern styles focus on kicks. I practice northern praying mantis and while we do use alot of footwork and kicks, its really not the focus. Also, just to clarify, all the kicks are low, not high jumping spinning kicks to the noggin. If your practicing WC you should learn good low kicks.

7sm


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## Kensai (Jul 14, 2006)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> Welcome to MT. Its an oversimplification to say Northern styles focus on kicks. I practice northern praying mantis and while we do use alot of footwork and kicks, its really not the focus. Also, just to clarify, all the kicks are low, not high jumping spinning kicks to the noggin. If your practicing WC you should learn good low kicks.
> 
> 7sm


 
Agree with this 100%. Also with what Drac said. It's all well and good to try and create your own concept art, but if you're going to "draw together" bits from different arts, you need to have an understanding of them in the first place. BL was able to do what he did, due to a not unreasonable level of knowledge of the MA.


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## Jade Tigress (Jul 14, 2006)

First of all ~ Welcome to Martial Talk. 





			
				Drac said:
			
		

> I believe that you need formal classes just to have a base to build on , meaning a good working knowledge of strikes, blocks and movement..That's my opinion for what its worth...Once again welcome to MT...




I agree. It's important to get some "formal" training. It will take many years of hard training in multiple arts before you will have the skill and knowledge necessary to develop your own style. I wish you luck in your journey.

This board is a great source of information to help you get started in finding the training you desire to accomplish your goal. Investigate the CMA forums here and keep us posted on your wing chun classes.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 14, 2006)

Very few people are able to successfully accomplish what you are envisioning.  In my opinion, you would be better off just training solidly in one or two arts for many years and getting very good at them.  Eventually if you are able to take them in your own direction that is fine, but don't even think about being able to do that for a long (LONG LONG) time.


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## still learning (Jul 14, 2006)

Hello, You may also want to look into a Kempo/Kenpo schools around your area. Kempo/Kenpo.  Check it out anyway.

My suggestion is start with Judo first learn how to fall and throw(3 areas-throws,grappling,chokes) ...branch out to other martial arts..get the ground work first....Aloha


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## JBrainard (Jul 14, 2006)

wowzer77 said:
			
		

> I want to study a variety of other martial arts and combine all their best aspects to create my own interperatation of Jeet Kune Do.


 
Very cool idea. You will have to build a great deal of martial knowledge, though.


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## bladenosh (Jul 14, 2006)

Jujutsu is a great background to add to your abilities. Many fights end up on the ground, and to know submissions is a great way to end it, or turn the tides. One thing UFC taught us is the amazing abilities of leverage in jujutsu. Kung Fu is very tied up into tradition and benign old philosophies. Although a beautiful art, perhaps not the best of fighting styles to study for effeciency. Wing Chun is quite effective and fast to learn. Dabbling all around is a great idea. I started in kickboxing, added elbows and knees... Then realized a need for jujutsu due to most fights going to the ground and strikes aren't quite as effective from your back. Fortunately, I learned the lesson of getting that into my arsenal fast; it has ended more fights than striking due to spontaneity in stand up.


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## 7starmantis (Jul 14, 2006)

bladenosh said:
			
		

> Kung Fu is very tied up into tradition and benign old philosophies. Although a beautiful art, perhaps not the best of fighting styles to study for effeciency.





			
				bladenosh said:
			
		

> Wing Chun is quite effective and fast to learn.



Eh? :idunno:


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## Jade Tigress (Jul 14, 2006)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> Eh? :idunno:



I second that...


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Jul 14, 2006)

bladenosh said:
			
		

> .....Kung Fu is very tied up into tradition and benign old philosophies. Although a beautiful art, perhaps not the best of fighting styles to study for effeciency. Wing Chun is quite effective and fast to learn....


 
Can I get a "Uuuuuuuuuuuh What?"


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## Kensai (Jul 14, 2006)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> Can I get a "Uuuuuuuuuuuh What?"



I'll 3rd that. I think it's a helluva misnomer to believe that ALL kung fu styles are only theatrical, sure there's a lot of performance, but I think it would be wrong to believe that there's nothing of value under that. 

I'll also not mention the fact that Wing Chun is actually...umm...kung fu also. :whip:


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## stone_dragone (Jul 14, 2006)

Again, greetings wowzer.



			
				wowzer77 said:
			
		

> My ultimate goal as a martial artist is to become a Jeet Kune Do expert.


 
Admirable and reasonable goal with a long future of hard work ahead of you.  Good choice in arts/schools of thought.



			
				wowzer77 said:
			
		

> But I don't want to take a formal class for it. Instead, I want to study a variety of other martial arts and combine all their best aspects to create my own interperatation of Jeet Kune Do.


 
This is what concerns me.  You can gain alot of knowledge from "non-standard" training (i.e. books, video, etc) but that should all be supplemental to formal training in your given art.  Just because you try to do the same thing that BL did to create his method (JKD) in studying other arts doesn't mean that you will come to the same conclusions that BL did based on his experience. 1) He was a phenominal physical specimen who devoted more time to exercise and developing his body than most people devote to sleeping, eating working and reading combined.  2) He had the benefit of training and sharing ideas with some incredible people.  3) He was an original individual who has been imitated but never duplicated. 



			
				wowzer77 said:
			
		

> ...In a few months I am starting Wing Chun classes to improve my speed with my hands/arms.


 
Good choice.  Let us know how it turns out!

Any advice for which style I'm looking for?  [/quote]

As far as chinese styles...no help here.  Sorry!  Good luck in your search, however.


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## pstarr (Jul 14, 2006)

I agree!  You really need formal training under a qualified instructor who can show you all the hundreds of "little things" that aren't presented on videos and/or can't be adequately explained in a book-


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## Shaolinwind (Jul 15, 2006)

wowzer77 said:
			
		

> Hi, I'm new to these forums and seeking some advice. My ultimate goal as a martial artist is to become a Jeet Kune Do expert. But I don't want to take a formal class for it. Instead, I want to study a variety of other martial arts and combine all their best aspects to create my own interperatation of Jeet Kune Do. I currently have experience in some great defense drills, basic kicking and punching techniques, and some breathing techniques...In a few months I am starting Wing Chun classes to improve my speed with my hands/arms. I have heard that the northern styles of kung fu focus on the legs and kicking, and I've been wondering which style would be best for me. I've heard of Northern Praying Mantis and Mei Hua Quan. Any advice for which style I'm looking for? I've looked on Wikipedia and seen that there are MANY kung fu styles. Just trying to narrow things down a little. Thanks in advance.


 
First.. Look hard, ask why, and don't lie to yourself.


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## jks9199 (Jul 15, 2006)

Kensai said:
			
		

> Agree with this 100%. Also with what Drac said. It's all well and good to try and create your own concept art, but if you're going to "draw together" bits from different arts, you need to have an understanding of them in the first place. BL was able to do what he did, due to a not unreasonable level of knowledge of the MA.


I agree.  It's often overlooked, but even Bruce Lee spent many years learning his base style before he went off on his own.  There are very few people who can really take a bunch of disparate pieces grabbed here and there and meld them into something effective... and I've gotta wonder why you'd even bother to try?  Why re-invent the wheel?  Instead, learn a base, then work from there.  If you learn a system that teaches 9 ways to punch, and you feel 2 are enough -- fine.  Pare it down for yourself, after you've learned 'em.  Or, if you start in something that's mostly kicks (like several Korean styles), and decide to add in hands from boxing, at least wait long enough that you've got the kicks down well!

Also -- it often takes years to earn a teacher's trust enough to really learn the system.  If anything, this is probably more true of the heavily commercial schools; I hope a point comes when students have stuck around and they start learning more than what I'll call the "contract curriculum" designed to feed the belt mill and keep the paying students coming back!


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## mantis (Jul 16, 2006)

wowzer77 said:
			
		

> Hi, I'm new to these forums and seeking some advice. My ultimate goal as a martial artist is to become a Jeet Kune Do expert. But I don't want to take a formal class for it. Instead, I want to study a variety of other martial arts and combine all their best aspects to create my own interperatation of Jeet Kune Do. I currently have experience in some great defense drills, basic kicking and punching techniques, and some breathing techniques...In a few months I am starting Wing Chun classes to improve my speed with my hands/arms. I have heard that the northern styles of kung fu focus on the legs and kicking, and I've been wondering which style would be best for me. I've heard of Northern Praying Mantis and Mei Hua Quan. Any advice for which style I'm looking for? I've looked on Wikipedia and seen that there are MANY kung fu styles. Just trying to narrow things down a little. Thanks in advance.


I like your approach to Jeet Kune Do, it tells that you do understand the philosophy behind it. 
On the other hand you have to note that ALL kung fu styles, including wing chun, do have a nice balance of footwork and handwork.  I would not agree with the statement that northern styles focus on kicks necessarily.  
If you live in the US i would say the style of kung fu you are looking for depends on the location, depends on what's available in your area. Unfortunate but true!

northern mantis balances kicks/puches and if you go that way you will understand a lot about smart and low kicking. 
good luck


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## Kensai (Jul 17, 2006)

jks9199 said:
			
		

> I agree.  It's often overlooked, but even Bruce Lee spent many years learning his base style before he went off on his own.  There are very few people who can really take a bunch of disparate pieces grabbed here and there and meld them into something effective... and I've gotta wonder why you'd even bother to try?  Why re-invent the wheel?  Instead, learn a base, then work from there.  If you learn a system that teaches 9 ways to punch, and you feel 2 are enough -- fine.  Pare it down for yourself, after you've learned 'em.  Or, if you start in something that's mostly kicks (like several Korean styles), and decide to add in hands from boxing, at least wait long enough that you've got the kicks down well!
> 
> Also -- it often takes years to earn a teacher's trust enough to really learn the system.  If anything, this is probably more true of the heavily commercial schools; I hope a point comes when students have stuck around and they start learning more than what I'll call the "contract curriculum" designed to feed the belt mill and keep the paying students coming back!



Agree also. Why indeed re-invent the wheel, and be prepared for the long haul if attempting something like this. It's not for me, I don't have the time or inclination to "develop" my own MA, or even attempt it, I'm quite happy cross training, but I'm all for people trying to find their own "way". Good post! :asian:


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## Fuzzy Foot (Jul 17, 2006)

Yes, what they said.


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## jks9199 (Jul 17, 2006)

Kensai said:
			
		

> Agree also. Why indeed re-invent the wheel, and be prepared for the long haul if attempting something like this. It's not for me, I don't have the time or inclination to "develop" my own MA, or even attempt it, I'm quite happy cross training, but I'm all for people trying to find their own "way". Good post! :asian:


I've considered cross training at various times in the past.  And I've frequently worked with people from other styles, sharing and comparing approaches.  But, for me, it boils down to a simple decision.  I still have years worth of material from my teacher that I've barely touched.  I don't have time to devote to something else!


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## wowzer77 (Jul 17, 2006)

When I said I didn't want to take formal classes, I meant I didn't want to take formal JKD classes, just incase that was a mixup.  Also, I don't want to end up with the same results as bruce lee.  Bruce's JKD was his interperatation of his art, I guess you could say.  I actually expect to end up different.  The thing about northern styles focusing on kicks is just something I've heard from multiple sources...and the reason I want something like that is because Wing Chun will teach me speed with my hands and low kicks, I know some basic ground fighting and getting out of certain situations (mug, knife attack, ect.) along with some korean kicking and punching techniques, so along with all this I would like to know some high acrobatic kicks and techniques to balance it all out.  I know this wont be achievable for a pretty long time, but I have a long time to do it all...


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## Brother John (Jul 17, 2006)

You DO know that the term "Kung-Fu" is not an "art" but a catagory....Right??

Kung-Fu is a catagory of martial arts systems that stem from China.
Wing Chun IS a system OF Kung-Fu.   That'd be why people find your statements that Kung-Fu wouldn't be good to study, yet Wing-Chun would be, or is "effective". 
That'd be like saying "I'd not buy a Car, but a Sedan would be nice."

There are THOUSANDS of systems of Kung-Fu.....
so your generalization just won't work.

Just something to think about.


Welcome to Martial Talk though. 
It's a great place to post questions and bounce your ideas off of lots of well trained and experienced people.

Your Brother
John


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## pstarr (Jul 18, 2006)

Take your time.  Make up your mind to learn one style in its entirety - which should take at least 15 years or so - and then if you feel like moving on, fine.

Learning real martial arts (as opposed to what passes for martial arts in Hollywood) is like making tea.   It takes time and patience...


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## Kensai (Jul 18, 2006)

jks9199 said:
			
		

> I've considered cross training at various times in the past.  And I've frequently worked with people from other styles, sharing and comparing approaches.  But, for me, it boils down to a simple decision.  I still have years worth of material from my teacher that I've barely touched.  *I don't have time to devote to something else!*



Lord tell me about it.


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## wowzer77 (Jul 21, 2006)

First of all brother john, of course I know that there are a great many kung fu styles, and I know wing chun is one. And I will be devoting myself to only one style for a long time untill I learn most/all of it..but I will also be practicing the things I've learned in other martial arts as well.  In my opinion, if you plan on studying and learning martial arts for self defence purposes, you should always take into account that whoever is attacking you is going to do whatever they want.  Me and my brother sometimes "shadow box" in my basement, where we both show each other what we would do in a real fight and test it out on eachother lightly.  Now I've learned to ways to block the same punch, and I chose one way is better for me.  I want to be able to do the same thing when choosing all my techniques...maybe a certain kick I learned in one style will work better for a situation than the kick someone would use if they only knew the other style I was studying.  This is why I want to know more than just one style in the long run..so I can study each viewpoint, each way of looking at self defence (that I've learned anyway), and use what I find to be most effective.  I won't be predictable or bound, and I will have less limitations.  Should be fun.


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## jks9199 (Jul 23, 2006)

wowzer77 said:
			
		

> First of all brother john, of course I know that there are a great many kung fu styles, and I know wing chun is one. And I will be devoting myself to only one style for a long time untill I learn most/all of it..but I will also be practicing the things I've learned in other martial arts as well.  In my opinion, if you plan on studying and learning martial arts for self defence purposes, you should always take into account that whoever is attacking you is going to do whatever they want.  Me and my brother sometimes "shadow box" in my basement, where we both show each other what we would do in a real fight and test it out on eachother lightly.  Now I've learned to ways to block the same punch, and I chose one way is better for me.  I want to be able to do the same thing when choosing all my techniques...maybe a certain kick I learned in one style will work better for a situation than the kick someone would use if they only knew the other style I was studying.  This is why I want to know more than just one style in the long run..so I can study each viewpoint, each way of looking at self defence (that I've learned anyway), and use what I find to be most effective.  I won't be predictable or bound, and I will have less limitations.  Should be fun.


But, until you've taken the time to learn the fundamentals well, how will you know that what you think is better really is?

It takes a long time, and lots of dedicated repitition to really internalize the principles of a martial art.  Until you do that -- you can't really add something to it.  Imagine grafting a full grown oak branch onto a sapling; it's not going to work well, is it?  

I'm not suggesting that you don't learn other styles -- but I am suggesting that BEFORE you decide that you can improve your base style, you need to be sure that you really are improving it!


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## wowzer77 (Jul 25, 2006)

That is a good point, don't fix it if it ain't broke...I don't plan to improve any style however, what I meant is that in a real life scenario, I might find that a kick from one style would work better than a kick from the first style I learned...so in the end, I don't plan on having anything modified in any way.  I would just use things from all the styles I learned and mix them to make a fight go better..someone who knows many styles isn't going to look at his opponent and decide which one style to use; he might use kicks learned from muay thai, and then come in close with wing chun, or use any of the many different techniques he has learned throughout his life.  I want to be like that I guess, but then (if I feel it is possible at the time) maybe meld them together a bit to make my system a little more concrete.


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## funnytiger (Jul 25, 2006)

> ...sure there's a lot of performance, but I think it would be wrong to believe that there's nothing of value under that.



I just wanted to point out that this is also a generalization. I wouldn't say any form of kung fu is more less a "performance" then TKD or Karate. I understand the purpose of the post and other than that statement I agree with all those who shared the same thought process.

There is so many styles of kung fu you (at this point in your MA career) can't even really say that you are going to take one kick from this style in this situation because it is better suited for it. One style may have a plethora (i just wanted to say, 'plethora') of ways to defend or attack with a kick. Once you have found a style of kung fu (or any MA) stick with it. Learn it. And THEN buid upon it.

But that's me just regurgitating what everyone else has said...:uhyeah:

-ft


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## profesormental (Jul 26, 2006)

Greetings!

This is really important.

The group of people which you will be taking classes with... your companions  and trainer... are very important, even more so than the "style" that you wiill be practicing in!

If you go to Wing Chun training, for example... after getting a feel and trust with your fellows and a comfortable foundation,
 you can explore the things others are doing at other studios and otehr training methods and try it with them...

From what you write, I am reminded of what Sun Tzu said...

(paraphrasing ) "The General that goes to battle knowing himself and his enemy, will tread surely and victory will be easy.

The general that knows himself, but not his enemy, may tread with care to gain victory.

The General that doen not know himself or his enemy treads dangeroulsy and victory will be hard fought."


If this is your aim with your cross training, that is good. Also, reading up on the materials of Bruce Lee and the philosophical concepts behind them should clear stuff up.

If you train in one style, it is just the beggining of the road... the starting point. From there you can travel to other places and learn, yet they will all be referenced and associated to your initial experience.

Wing Chun is a very good starting point, and from there you can add to it's framework any other concept or training that you deem necessary for your personal taste.


Yet what is most important is that you have a supportive group of friends and fellows that help you along and have fun with you as to make your learning easier.

I'm happy that I've met some of the craziest and barbaric people that love to train with me and enjoy looking for their edge and occasionally going over it to see what exists further!


That is the most important thing...

Sicnerely,

Juan M. Mercado

The nice sophisticated guy from the beaches of Puerto Rico that's recovering from burnout, knee, hip and back injuries... only to play rough again with barbarians and enjoy every second of it!


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## Kensai (Jul 26, 2006)

funnytiger said:
			
		

> I just wanted to point out that this is also a generalization. I wouldn't say any form of kung fu is more less a "performance" then TKD or Karate. I understand the purpose of the post and other than that statement I agree with all those who shared the same thought process.
> 
> There is so many styles of kung fu you (at this point in your MA career) can't even really say that you are going to take one kick from this style in this situation because it is better suited for it. One style may have a plethora (i just wanted to say, 'plethora') of ways to defend or attack with a kick. Once you have found a style of kung fu (or any MA) stick with it. Learn it. And THEN buid upon it.
> 
> ...


 
Actually, I think that was directed at me, there IS a lot of theatrics in modern wushu/kung fu styles, I was making a point that a lot of people who perhaps look at TKD, or karate don't see that, and MAY be put off by such "theatrics/gymnastics". My other point was that that wasn't the be all and end all of kung fu. That was in direct response to another post made by bladenosh about kung fu having wonderful traditions, and being very beautiful to watch, (I've also heard this from Aikido practitioners) so was countering that point. I stand by what I said. :asian:


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## funnytiger (Jul 26, 2006)

Kensai said:
			
		

> Actually, I think that was directed at me, there IS a lot of theatrics in modern wushu/kung fu styles, I was making a point that a lot of people who perhaps look at TKD, or karate don't see that, and MAY be put off by such "theatrics/gymnastics". My other point was that that wasn't the be all and end all of kung fu. That was in direct response to another post made by bladenosh about kung fu having wonderful traditions, and being very beautiful to watch, (I've also heard this from Aikido practitioners) so was countering that point. I stand by what I said. :asian:



When I look at TKD or Karate tournaments and I see all the shouting and the flipping and rolling around I think of THAT as being theatrical. As many kung fu tournaments as I've been to I could count on one hand how many times I've seen someone who practices KUNG FU as opposed to to modern WUSHU do any kind of theatrical movements. REAL kung fu at very LITTLE gymnastics in it sir, hence why I pointed it out as being a generalization.

With respect to your opinion, I too stand by what I said.

- ft


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## mantis (Jul 26, 2006)

funnytiger said:
			
		

> When I look at TKD or Karate tournaments and I see all the shouting and the flipping and rolling around I think of THAT as being theatrical. As many kung fu tournaments as I've been to I could count on one hand how many times I've seen someone who practices KUNG FU as opposed to to modern WUSHU do any kind of theatrical movements. REAL kung fu at very LITTLE gymnastics in it sir, hence why I pointed it out as being a generalization.
> 
> With respect to your opinion, I too stand by what I said.
> 
> - ft


you know this is funny because when i go to tournies i look for kung fu guys and hardly ever see them.  All i can watch is like 50 wushu people doing the same exact form over and over and over.  my question is this though, in tournaments how can you judge a traditional kung fu form?  the judges have probably not even seen the form before!


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## funnytiger (Jul 26, 2006)

mantis said:
			
		

> you know this is funny because when i go to tournies i look for kung fu guys and hardly ever see them.  All i can watch is like 50 wushu people doing the same exact form over and over and over.  my question is this though, in tournaments how can you judge a traditional kung fu form?  the judges have probably not even seen the form before!



I'm not sure I understand the question... I'm not sure what kung fu tournaments you go to so I can't really speak about that. I guess what's even funnier is that at the tournaments I go to they usually have a special category for JUST wushu and keep it seperate from the traditional kung fu. Maybe I go to more traditionaly kung fu tournaments? All of the judges practice/teach some sort of traditionaly kung fu and are assigned to judge divisions accordingly.

What tournies have you been to?

- ft


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## Kensai (Jul 26, 2006)

funnytiger said:
			
		

> When I look at TKD or Karate tournaments and I see all the shouting and the flipping and rolling around I think of THAT as being theatrical. As many kung fu tournaments as I've been to I could count on one hand how many times I've seen someone who practices KUNG FU as opposed to to modern WUSHU do any kind of theatrical movements. REAL kung fu at very LITTLE gymnastics in it sir, hence why I pointed it out as being a generalization.
> 
> With respect to your opinion, I too stand by what I said.
> 
> - ft


 
Shouting and flipping? Having done karate many years back, there was never any shouting and flipping in what I did/saw. My partner studied karate for 4 or 5 years, and also never encountered "shouting and flipping". Strange analogy. Besides, we're also not talking about what _you _see as theatrical, but about how people that come to any given kung fu class and their possible perception of what they encounter. I've had Aikido guys that I train with say, quote unquote "kung fu, oh some of those kung fu styles are beautiful"... Hmmm... Wonder what they'd been watching? The kind of material below perhaps?

What about this? 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUnooJWWEsw&search=kung%20fu%20forms That's not theatrics? I think the give-away is in the title where it says, "*performed by Lin...*"That's what I'm talking about. It's difficult to differentiate between "real" kung fu, and "wushu", especially for a beginner. For someone that may not know much about the art, I again stand by what I said about being potentially put off by watching this, perhaps thinking it's more about performance than effectiveness. I wasn't questioning the effectiveness of kung fu, as a WC practitioner, I'm aware of it's effectiveness. So, perhaps we should agree to disagree here.


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## still learning (Jul 26, 2006)

Hello, To be a good in one style takes a life time....when you become good...there is no other reason to learn something else (other than to expand your knowledge).

Cross training is always better than none! One can always learn new things even from white belts.

Most KEMPO schools have come from many other styles blended in it..therefore learning Kempo is good. 

This is my recommendation...check out a few Kempo schools (Many are different yet teaches the same concepts)

Everyone adapts their arts's to fit them...What works for me may not work for you...yet we both learn the same things.

Learning from a good teacher....will last a lifetime...Become a master of ONE.   

Don't be a "Jack of all trades and master of none"

When you see a doctor?  For a cold..a General practice one is OK.  for a serious illness....you will perfer a specialize one.

It is the person (YOU) who make each art works....ONE day you will understand this...it is not art/type of kung-fu/or the many different arts..that will make you better....it is hard work.practice and practice...and what fits you.....Each person has their own style of fighting ,even with 100 people in the same class do not fight the same way on the street....You make the techniques fit you..and use what works for you.

Spinning back fist works for me because I make it work for me...and when the time is right...."Pow" ..for others in my class...doesn't work for them..Each person has their own style..within a style......Aloha

Hope this helps!


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## funnytiger (Jul 27, 2006)

Kensai said:
			
		

> Shouting and flipping? Having done karate many years back, there was never any shouting and flipping in what I did/saw. My partner studied karate for 4 or 5 years, and also never encountered "shouting and flipping". Strange analogy. Besides, we're also not talking about what _you _see as theatrical, but about how people that come to any given kung fu class and their possible perception of what they encounter. I've had Aikido guys that I train with say, quote unquote "kung fu, oh some of those kung fu styles are beautiful"... Hmmm... Wonder what they'd been watching? The kind of material below perhaps?
> 
> What about this?
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUnooJWWEsw&search=kung%20fu%20forms That's not theatrics? I think the give-away is in the title where it says, "*performed by Lin...*"That's what I'm talking about. It's difficult to differentiate between "real" kung fu, and "wushu", especially for a beginner. For someone that may not know much about the art, I again stand by what I said about being potentially put off by watching this, perhaps thinking it's more about performance than effectiveness. I wasn't questioning the effectiveness of kung fu, as a WC practitioner, I'm aware of it's effectiveness. So, perhaps we should agree to disagree here.



I could just as easily mention that a lot of the guys that I take kung fu with are ex-tkd/karate guys who have actually SAID that tkd/karate was full of a bunch of silly flips and exaggerated _theatrics. _

With that being said you can not dictate to me the perceptions of others as a valid argument, no more than what I said above is any kind of supporting evidence of my claim. We are on the Internet so I could say my grandmother was a black belt in TKD and you really couldn't say that I was BSing you.

I know you practice WC and I also know you haven't been practicing for very long. I assume that your experience with TCMA is limited based on some of your comments and posts. I'm not ragging on you, I'm just making an observation.

Your clip says two things to me. 1. I have seen a lot of TKD and Karate _performances _that were A LOT flashier than that. 2. Our definitions of theatrical are COMPLETELY different. 

So yes, agree to disagree and let's leave it at that. No hard feelings.

::salute::

- ft


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## Kensai (Jul 27, 2006)

funnytiger said:
			
		

> I could just as easily mention that a lot of the guys that I take kung fu with are ex-tkd/karate guys who have actually SAID that tkd/karate was full of a bunch of silly flips and exaggerated _theatrics. _
> 
> With that being said you can not dictate to me the perceptions of others as a valid argument, no more than what I said above is any kind of supporting evidence of my claim. We are on the Internet so I could say my grandmother was a black belt in TKD and you really couldn't say that I was BSing you.
> 
> ...


 
Lol, never. Mine's a pint of Guinness please my good sir. 

Ooh, by the way, your site looks interesting, checked it out last night.


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## funnytiger (Jul 27, 2006)

Kensai said:
			
		

> Lol, never. Mine's a pint of Guinness please my good sir.
> 
> Ooh, by the way, your site looks interesting, checked it out last night.



I'll have a SoCo and lime!


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 27, 2006)

Yes I know I'm late to this and probably posting inappropriately at this point but I am not getting a pint of Guinness or a SoCo and lime out of this. (For future reference I prefer Guinness - and it does not need to be cold either)

First

 I believe wowser77 is looking to study multiple styles in order to combine them into something that works for wowzer77. 

That is commendable but difficult, it is hard to understand any art well enough as it applies to you without extensive study of said art.

If you want a style that focuses on kicks to understand kicking train savate. If you want to focus on punching train boxing and if you want some groundwork try wrestling. CMA, JMA, MMA, TMA are not necessary there is much more to the study of Martial Arts than kicking, punching and takedowns. 

Bruce Lee studied a lot of things to come up with Jeet Kun Do, boxing, Wing Chun, Thai kick boxing, etc. But he did have a solid understanding of Wing Chun and fighting before doing this. 

Second 

Northern styles and high kicks, some yes, some no. Southern Styles and high kicks, some yes some no. 

Wing Chun does train hands and low kicks very well and you can study Wing Chun for a year and have some understanding, look not to bad and be able to defend yourself. But you still do not have a good understanding of Wing Chun.


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## Kensai (Jul 27, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> Yes I know I'm late to this and probably posting inappropriately at this point but I am not getting a pint of Guinness or a SoCo and lime out of this. (For future reference I prefer Guinness - and it does not need to be cold either)
> 
> First
> 
> ...


 
As per usual, spot on mate. Especially your last bit about Wing Chun. :asian:


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## Kensai (Jul 27, 2006)

funnytiger said:
			
		

> I'll have a SoCo and lime!


 
one SoCo and lime coming up. Interesting mix...


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## funnytiger (Jul 27, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> Second
> 
> Northern styles and high kicks, some yes, some no. Southern Styles and high kicks, some yes some no.



I love this answer! This is one of those things that is long debated on every MA form out there. I guess its human nature to want to categorize things, huh?



> one SoCo and lime coming up. Interesting mix...



Oh boy... who are you telling? Anyone who went to the 5 Tigers afterparty this year will tell ya... funny tiger + SoCo = SUPER funny tiger (or at least I think I am at the time)!


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## Kensai (Jul 27, 2006)

funnytiger said:
			
		

> I love this answer! This is one of those things that is long debated on every MA form out there. I guess its human nature to want to categorize things, huh?
> 
> 
> 
> Oh boy... who are you telling? Anyone who went to the 5 Tigers afterparty this year will tell ya... funny tiger + SoCo = SUPER funny tiger (*or at least I think I am at the time*)!


 
Yep, that pretty much sums me up after a pint or 12. I'm the worlds _greatest_ dancer, the _funniest_ bloke in the room, and the whole world loves _me_. Of this I am assured....Until I get home, get the cold shoulder from Mrs Kensai, and made to sleep downstairs. Then, I'm far from happy Kensai, and generally complain about my lot in life... woe is me, that kinda thing.


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## charyuop (Jul 28, 2006)

I wouldn't underestimate the internal martial art.
Since you would like to follow Bruce Lee path don't forget that his father taught him the Wu Style of Tai Chi and he mastered the Yang Style too.


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## Dragon_Palm_1987 (Jul 28, 2006)

Dude, it isn't practical to just create an interpretation of Jeet Kune Do by compiling several different styles. First off, if you were to integrate several different styles, the underlying principles should have a degree of commonality. Bruce Lee only created Jeet Kune Do after he had a high level of proficiency and competency in Wing Chun. The adept Martial Artist, normally the one with many years of experience and cultivation, can use their Chi (energy or whatever you want to call it) to increase sensitivity or reflexes to manipulate the outcome in combat. This is just one minor use of Chi; the applications of Chi have practically no limitations.


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## Dragon_Palm_1987 (Jul 28, 2006)

Kensai said:
			
		

> Shouting and flipping? Having done karate many years back, there was never any shouting and flipping in what I did/saw. My partner studied karate for 4 or 5 years, and also never encountered "shouting and flipping". Strange analogy. Besides, we're also not talking about what _you _see as theatrical, but about how people that come to any given kung fu class and their possible perception of what they encounter. I've had Aikido guys that I train with say, quote unquote "kung fu, oh some of those kung fu styles are beautiful"... Hmmm... Wonder what they'd been watching? The kind of material below perhaps?
> 
> What about this?
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUnooJWWEsw&search=kung%20fu%20forms That's not theatrics? I think the give-away is in the title where it says, "*performed by Lin...*"That's what I'm talking about. It's difficult to differentiate between "real" kung fu, and "wushu", especially for a beginner. For someone that may not know much about the art, I again stand by what I said about being potentially put off by watching this, perhaps thinking it's more about performance than effectiveness. I wasn't questioning the effectiveness of kung fu, as a WC practitioner, I'm aware of it's effectiveness. So, perhaps we should agree to disagree here.


Okay, now on the clip that you posted from YouTube, it seemed to be a contemporary translation of Long Fist Kung Fu, but it appeared to have some practical applications (i.e. low kicks); just simple techniques when you look to simplify their origins. Typically, it is all Kung Fu; the only thing about what you're calling "performance Kung Fu" is just the performing variation of Traditional Fung Fu. For example, the difference between traditional and contemporary Ba Zui Zhan Quan (8 Drunken Gods Fist) is more than obvious, especially to the practicioner. The movements of contemporary Zui Quan would be near impossible for someone to perform while intoxicated, because they are so deliberately exaggerated (like George W. Bush's ability to lead). Although Contemporary Wushu seems to be geared toward exaggerating Traditional Kung Fu, it still retains the essence of Kung Fu.


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## pstarr (Jul 28, 2006)

I don't know that I'd say that contemporary wushu still contains the "essence" of kung-fu.  It contains some of the outer shell, though.  Kind of like a doughnut.  All the good stuff is on the outside.  Nothing in the middle.


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## wowzer77 (Jul 31, 2006)

I'd like to say that this thread has helped me quite a deal..oh and about what dragon_palm said about qi (however u wanna spell), I still do not understand it.  Everything about qi is a mystery to me and I don't understand the first thing about using it, but of course that is because the first style I studied was based completely on science and practical mechanics, not cultivating any inner energy. I'm hoping Wing Chun helps me learn more about qi.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 26, 2021)

Kensai said:


> I'll 3rd that. I think it's a helluva misnomer to believe that ALL kung fu styles are only theatrical, sure there's a lot of performance, but I think it would be wrong to believe that there's nothing of value under that.
> 
> I'll also not mention the fact that Wing Chun is actually...umm...kung fu also. :whip:


I will 4th that!


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## J. Pickard (Nov 2, 2021)

IF your goal is to to get the best from them all from a fighting perspective, then just pick one system and as you learn more about your body, adjust the system to fit you. Pressure test it frequently and make changes as needed. Ultimately a real fight, regardless of style, usually looks like some sort of kick boxing with a bit of grappling mixed in. In a real fight fine motor movement is nearly impossible and gross motor movement takes over. learn a style that you enjoy and pressure test it often and you will find a way to modify it to make it work for you. It may no longer look like the original style, but it will be uniquely yours and effective for you.


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## J. Pickard (Nov 2, 2021)

bladenosh said:


> Kung Fu is very tied up into tradition and benign old philosophies. Although a beautiful art, perhaps not the best of fighting styles to study for effeciency


I think that is a very generalized and inaccurate viewpoint since "kung fu" isn't just one thing but rather literally thousands of thing and not all are considered martial art. I will agree there are a lot of (and I use the term loosely) "kung fu masters" that fall into this category of inefficient philosophers but I think you will find them to be the minority. They are quite sensationalized even in Chinese media which makes it seem like they are everywhere but there are actually a lot of good, practical kung fu schools out there that don't fall into the old traditions of over embellishing and teaching BS philosophies.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Nov 2, 2021)

wowzer77 said:


> I'd like to say that this thread has helped me quite a deal..oh and about what dragon_palm said about qi (however u wanna spell), I still do not understand it.  Everything about qi is a mystery to me and I don't understand the first thing about using it, but of course that is because the first style I studied was based completely on science and practical mechanics, not cultivating any inner energy. I'm hoping Wing Chun helps me learn more about qi.


read Nei Jia Quan by Jess o Brien. Internal martial arts teachers giving their point of view. It is a great starting point.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Nov 2, 2021)

wowzer77 said:


> When I said I didn't want to take formal classes, I meant I didn't want to take formal JKD classes, just incase that was a mixup.  Also, I don't want to end up with the same results as bruce lee.  Bruce's JKD was his interperatation of his art, I guess you could say.  I actually expect to end up different.  The thing about northern styles focusing on kicks is just something I've heard from multiple sources...and the reason I want something like that is because Wing Chun will teach me speed with my hands and low kicks, I know some basic ground fighting and getting out of certain situations (mug, knife attack, ect.) along with some korean kicking and punching techniques, so along with all this I would like to know some high acrobatic kicks and techniques to balance it all out.  I know this wont be achievable for a pretty long time, but I have a long time to do it all...


Kung fu or gung fu just means hard work Skill.  The hard working skilled person can have good Kung fu washing dishes. There are too many styles of Chinese martial art to even list and hundreds I have never heard of, and still hundreds that were lost or disappeared for various reasons. The big flashy acrobatic kicks in my system are mostly used to develop the body with dynamic exeraise.  I personally cannot see myself using double twirl kicks in a fight. It looks cool and feels like an accomplishment once you are able to pull it off and stick it in both directions, but I can’t say it’s an effective technique unless you plan on fighting mounted Manchu warriors.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 2, 2021)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Kung fu or gung fu just means hard work Skill.  The hard working skilled person can have good Kung fu washing dishes. There are too many styles of Chinese martial art to even list and hundreds I have never heard of, and still hundreds that were lost or disappeared for various reasons. The big flashy acrobatic kicks in my system are mostly used to develop the body with dynamic exeraise.  I personally cannot see myself using double twirl kicks in a fight. It looks cool and feels like an accomplishment once you are able to pull it off and stick it in both directions, but I can’t say it’s an effective technique unless you plan on fighting mounted Manchu warriors.


Sorry, I just couldn't resist  great post by the way


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## Wing Woo Gar (Nov 2, 2021)

J. Pickard said:


> I think that is a very generalized and inaccurate viewpoint since "kung fu" isn't just one thing but rather literally thousands of thing and not all are considered martial art. I will agree there are a lot of (and I use the term loosely) "kung fu masters" that fall into this category of inefficient philosophers but I think you will find them to be the minority. They are quite sensationalized even in Chinese media which makes it seem like they are everywhere but there are actually a lot of good, practical kung fu schools out there that don't fall into the old traditions of over embellishing and teaching BS philosophies.





Xue Sheng said:


> Sorry, I just couldn't resist  great post by the way
> 
> View attachment 27511


I’m going to archery to deal with this! High kicks don’t cut it!


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 2, 2021)

J. Pickard said:


> as you learn more about your body, adjust the system to fit you



Kangaroo kung fu is the real deal.  Years of training and sparring from birth leads to fame and glory in the court later on.  Or broken bones.  So it is with humans.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Nov 2, 2021)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> read Nei Jia Quan by Jess o Brien. Internal martial arts teachers giving their point of view. It is a great starting point.


I’m a tad bit biased towards that book btw.  I had dinner and played board games with the author and two guys that are in the book last night. Plus my Sifu and my Sigung are in it. Just being honest here.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Nov 2, 2021)

Oily Dragon said:


> Kangaroo kung fu is the real deal.  Years of training and sparring from birth leads to fame and glory in the court later on.  Or broken bones.  So it is with humans.


Oof! That had to hurt!


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## john_newman (Nov 2, 2021)

The best we I can do for you is offer you articles about your Training!!
News


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## Wing Woo Gar (Nov 2, 2021)

john_newman said:


> The best we I can do for you is offer you articles about your Training!!
> News


Sales pitch? This thread is about cma.


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 2, 2021)

john_newman said:


> The best we I can do for you is offer you articles about your Training!!
> News


Not bad at all.

Kung fu definitely requires a certain diet.  I've got some cool recipes if anyone is interested.  Teas, cooking oils, spice combinations.  Low calorie and full of kung flavor.









						Eat Like a Boxer: A Healthy Boxer's Diet
					

A boxer’s diet is nothing different from the other serious athletes like runners, weightlifters, and many other athletes. Although, there is no such difference, let's make it clearer and more specific for you beginners. Here it goes:




					www.elitesports.com


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## Wing Woo Gar (Nov 2, 2021)

Oily Dragon said:


> Not bad at all.
> 
> Kung fu definitely requires a certain diet.  I've got some cool recipes if anyone is interested.  Teas, cooking oils, spice combinations.  Low calorie and full of kung flavor.
> 
> ...


My Sifu trained us with seasons in mind. When the weather began to change he would direct certain students to eat more of, or less of some things. We use to joke about it (outside class).  He seemed to understand what each person needed. Sometimes, he could, almost eerily, know what you had been eating lately. In later years when I asked about it, he replied, “that’s why my name is on the sign”.


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 3, 2021)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> My Sifu trained us with seasons in mind. When the weather began to change he would direct certain students to eat more of, or less of some things. We use to joke about it (outside class).  He seemed to understand what each person needed. Sometimes, he could, almost eerily, know what you had been eating lately. In later years when I asked about it, he replied, “that’s why my name is on the sign”.


For me it's booze and cigarettes.  That's what I can always smell on people, since I gave up all fun in order to train healthy.

Pu-erh is a good kung fu tea.  Lots of caffeine.


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