# Kamishin Ryu



## kenpojujitsu (Feb 21, 2006)

I guess I have to aplogize.
it seems that the noted historian, respected swordsman and long time student of Nakamura Sensei - Mr. Guy Power, has in fact verfied that both Albert Church and Ted Petit are the rightful and legitmate Soke of Kamishin Ryu.

This totally changes everything that we have always been taught.
But it is hard to go against the word of someone with the credentials of someone like Mr. Power.

I guess everyone that has ever scoffed at the idea of these American Sokeship councils needs to go back to them and apolgize.

Thank you Guy Power Sensei for clearing all this up.
And I humbly apologize to Soke Church, Soke Petit and the Shihan-Renshi/Pastor Collins.


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## jujutsu_indonesia (Feb 21, 2006)

To made an honest mistake and admit it is a sign of a real brave man with pure heart. You are a true warrior kenpojujitsu.


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## kenpojujitsu (Feb 21, 2006)

I have told people, in other posts and in emails that I would apologize if proven wrong.

I know Mr. Power by reputation only.  But he is known to be a true scholar of Budo.   I was shocked to see his name affiliated with this organization.
But it hs been verified that Power Sensei has in fact stated the legitimacy of these "sokeships".  So I kept my word and apologized.

I also have to apologize to Soke Williams of the ISHH for doubting the veracity of his claims.  I know he has been taking a beating on the boards all over the place for his statements and claims.  But to be in the company of Power Sensei is to be in good company indeed.

I guess that is 2 more issues settled.


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## kamishinkan (Feb 21, 2006)

In the light of this post, I would also like to make sure that in our last postings I did not say anything personally offensive to Kenpojujitsu. If I did I apologize as well. You are certainly a great debater!


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## kenpojujitsu (Feb 21, 2006)

I was not really offended by anything you said.
I just get mad easily and the Church debates had really ticked me off.


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## kamishinkan (Feb 21, 2006)

I understand. Glad it's over!


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## jujutsu_indonesia (Feb 21, 2006)

My teacher's teacher, Mr. Hobbs, happened to be a student of Mr. Church as well, back then in the 60s or 70s I think. My teacher thinks very highly of Mr. Hobbs, and I also think that Mr. Hobbs has great skills. My teacher is already a skilled and established Wado-ryu and Jujutsu practitioner before he joined Mr. Hobbs's group, so I won't take his opinion lightly.

Mr. Hobbs credited Mr. Church as one of his teachers and martial art influences. So, despite all the bad press Mr. Church has been getting in the E-budo world lately, I am very sure that Mr. Church does have great skills, and some of the controversies and debates about him must have come from some sort of misunderstanding, or maybe (bad) business decisions.

All in all, I am glad the debates are over   toast to all


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## arnisador (Feb 21, 2006)

I thought Don Angier was the only non-Japanese Soke?


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## jujutsu_indonesia (Feb 21, 2006)

Kind of difficult to say.. Mr. Kondo Katsuyuki is said to recognize Don Angier's skills, as well as Mr. Stan Pranin. But to accept that a Gaijin (non Japanese) is able to become a Soke of a Koryu art is rather difficult to digest.

Menkyokaiden or full license is another story, many people has received this license from Japanese masters. People who received full license sometimes went on to create their own arts, which is legit. If a non Japanese received full license and then create his/her own art, then his art would still be considered  legit, but this art won't be fully recognized as an ancient (koryu) art. Rather, it will be recognized as a modern derivative, and many Japanese would tell you that it is not to be considered as "truly Japanese art" anymore  

In Mr. Church's case, he was "recognized" (even this is debatable) as a Soke of an independent art. No Japanese ever claimed "Nihon Kamishin-ryu" before, so no problems there.


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## kenpojujitsu (Feb 21, 2006)

Actually, nippon Kamishin Ryu is the new name of the old art.
Kim Chi Kooh appears to have inherited a branch of Daito Ryu along with an ancient Chinese art.
Church had always maintained that in order to be recognized as "Soke", the art needed to have a Japanese name.  So the name was changed.
According to the scroll, the art dates back to 1125 in China.


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## kamishinkan (Feb 21, 2006)

That depends on who you ask. 
Some disagree with Angier sensei's claims (not me).

EDIT: As far as Kamishin Ryu inheriting a branch of Daito Ryu......Incorrect. This was said by the ISHH. This was NEVER claimed by anyone in Kamishin Ryu.


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## jujutsu_indonesia (Feb 21, 2006)

kenpojujitsu said:
			
		

> Actually, nippon Kamishin Ryu is the new name of the old art.
> Kim Chi Kooh appears to have inherited a branch of Daito Ryu along with an ancient Chinese art.
> Church had always maintained that in order to be recognized as "Soke", the art needed to have a Japanese name. So the name was changed.
> According to the scroll, the art dates back to 1125 in China.


 
I think that is a very plausible scenario. Mr. Kooh is a master of an ancient chinese art, but he also had some training in Japanese arts, and thus he created a sino-japanese modern art based on all his knowledge.

But I am not sure that Mr. Kooh inherited a branch of Daito-ryu. If he really did, there must be his name written somewhere in the Daito-ryu enrollment books as kept by the Takeda family. Even if he only attend a seminar, his name should be there. So far we had no confirmation whatsoever.

Mr. Pranin of Aiki News has confirmed that one Korean, Mr. Jang in Mok, has received a Shoden Mokuroku in Daito-ryu from Matsuda Hosaku sensei in the early 40s. So the idea of non-Japanese receiving Daito-ryu instructions is possible, as long as we could see the written proof.

Anyway, most Budo historians now accepted that Daito-ryu is a modern (post Meiji) art, it was reconstructed by Takeda Sokaku sensei based on his family art. So, while takeda's family art could have been a Koryu (perhaps based on Asayama Ichiden-ryu), the things that Takeda sensei taught to Uyeshiba, Okuyama, Sagawa, Horikawa et al was not the Koryu version, but rather, a modern, principle-based version which he reconstructed himself.


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## kamishinkan (Feb 21, 2006)

We (Kamishin Ryu) were never told anything like "inheritance of a Daito Ryu lineaged art".....
 We were told that the inherited art that was re-named to Nippon Kobudo Kamishin Ryu was a Chinese/Korean art likened to Hapkido (Basically a punch/kick/throwing art). The Jujutsu we now train in was systemitized by Church sensei from his previous training (Daito/Hakko Ryu). This is not inheritance, just instructor added training.


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## jujutsu_indonesia (Feb 25, 2006)

Yup, that's what Mr. Hobbs told my sensei as well. It's an old Hapkido-like art on which Mr. Church tag on some Judo and Hakko-ryu (and maybe some bunkai from Motobu-ha Shito-ryu) in it.


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## ghp (Feb 25, 2006)

> "Mr. Guy Power, has in fact verfied that both Albert Church and Ted Petit are the rightful and legitmate Soke of Kamishin Ryu.


*NO, NO, NO!!! Why do you continue to misrepresent what I have CLEARLY said to you?*

I did *NOT* verify that Albert Church is the rightful and legitimate soke of Kamishinryu; nor, that Ted Petit is the legitimate soke of Kamishinryu. I translated a document from KUNIBA sensei in which *KUNIBA writes*, "_*I designate Albert C. Church, Jr., Kamishinryu Soke, as International Martial Arts Instructor and my representative ....*"_! I, Guy Power, am verifying that my *translation* of Kuniba sensei's document is accurate.

Guy Power


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## kamishinkan (Feb 25, 2006)

Power Sensei,

 I think Kenpojujitsu was trying to tie your words (twisted as they were) Church Sensei, Petit Sensei and the ISHH. It seems to me to try and bring an overall discredit to the whole thing. I think everyone who has read the posts can see the agenda, Thank you for correcting alot of this information and bringing to light the truth of the Kuniba scroll, kanban, menjo, etc.

Darrell Collins
Kamishinkan Dojo


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## jujutsu_indonesia (Feb 26, 2006)

ghp said:
			
		

> *NO, NO, NO!!! Why do you continue to misrepresent what I have CLEARLY said to you?*
> 
> I did *NOT* verify that Albert Church is the rightful and legitimate soke of Kamishinryu; nor, that Ted Petit is the legitimate soke of Kamishinryu. I translated a document from KUNIBA sensei in which *KUNIBA writes*, "_*I designate Albert C. Church, Jr., Kamishinryu Soke, as International Martial Arts Instructor and my representative ....*"_! I, Guy Power, am verifying that my *translation* of Kuniba sensei's document is accurate.
> 
> Guy Power


 
Hello Powers sensei,

(off topics mode on)

Welcome to MartialTalk!

My sensei's sensei also studied Toyama-ryu, just like you.

Hope you enjoy your stay!

(off topics mode off)


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## Don Roley (Feb 27, 2006)

ghp said:
			
		

> *NO, NO, NO!!! Why do you continue to misrepresent what I have CLEARLY said to you?*
> 
> I did *NOT* verify that Albert Church is the rightful and legitimate soke of Kamishinryu; nor, that Ted Petit is the legitimate soke of Kamishinryu. I translated a document from KUNIBA sensei in which *KUNIBA writes*, "_*I designate Albert C. Church, Jr., Kamishinryu Soke, as International Martial Arts Instructor and my representative ....*"_! I, Guy Power, am verifying that my *translation* of Kuniba sensei's document is accurate.
> 
> Guy Power



Can someone explain something to me? Has anyone said that Kuniba made Church as an inheritor of Kamishin ryu or examined his claims as such?

Because the way I read the above, that does not seem to be the case.

The above could be explained by the idea that Church created a style, called it Kamishin ryu and Kuniba merely used the title Church gave himself on a semi-official document. It could mean more, but really does not sound much more than Kuniba using a title that Church told him he used.

If Kuniba made Church his inheritor, then the document would read that he designated Church _as soke_. The title soke is not mentioned as being what Kuniba designates him as and the only thing designated is as a representative of him.

I really can't seem to find a thread that would answer this question in the first three pages and is seems a simple question to answer. So could someone tell me if Church claimed that Kuniba made him a soke?


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## rutherford (Feb 27, 2006)

I believe this is the thread you're looking for, Don.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23373


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## Don Roley (Feb 27, 2006)

That's a 21 page thread. Can't you just say yes or no? It isn't that much of a request!!!!


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## rutherford (Feb 27, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> That's a 21 page thread. Can't you just say yes or no? It isn't that much of a request!!!!


 
There's copies of the scrolls posted near the end of that thread, Don.  Ignore the discussion and read the scrolls yourself.

Sorry, I haven't slept in a while.  But I'm still not gonna get in the middle of this.

Oh, and you really should consider setting the forum to 100 posts per page.  Much easier to handle the big threads that way, even on a slow connection.


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## kamishinkan (Feb 27, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Can someone explain something to me?...........
> 
> If Kuniba made Church his inheritor, then the document would read that he designated Church _as soke_.........
> 
> So could someone tell me if Church claimed that Kuniba made him a soke?


 
Church sensei never suggested that he was an inheritor to Kuniba sensei.

As far as Church sensei "creating" his own art of Kamishin Ryu and Kuniba naming him Soke. That is not the way it is done, the "Soke" title would usually ONLY be used for a situation of inheritance. Power sensei as well as many others that I know have seen (and held) the 30 foot long scroll of inheritance of the art that was re-named by Kuniba and Church sensei to Nippon Kobudo Kamishin Ryu.

Church sensei never said Kuniba sensei "made him a Soke". It was always maintained that Kuniba sensei recognized his position as "Soke" of the inherited art now known as Kamishin Ryu.

Hope this helps,

Darrell Collins
Kamishinkan Dojo


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## ghp (Feb 27, 2006)

The way I recall, the scroll from Kim Chi-Koh sensei allegedly named Mr. Church as his inheritor and it was called a variety of names -- I've seen three names used by Mr. Church, one being "ram's fist" or "ram's head" -- I'd have to go through my files. The final name, as I recall, was Shorin-ji Tekken Ryu Kenpo (Shaolin Temple Iron-Fist Boxing System).

From Mr. Church's mouth to my ear is that Mr. Koh named him as inheritor; he showed that scroll to Kuniba sensei who borrowed it for a time (a week, I think) to review; then suggested Mr. Church reclassify the system using a Japanese methodology. The "Kuniba Scroll" was supposed to be his recognition from Kuniba sensei that he was "International Budo Instructor" and recognition as soke. 

I think Don Roley's reading of my translation is accurate -- the scroll does not "advance" or "promote" Mr. Church to soke; but it does use the title in conjunction with his name. This is the point where believers and nonbelievers will never reconcile. 

Believers will insist that the personal relationship between Mr. Kuniba and Mr. Church was such that the use of "soke" for Mr. Church was a peer-to-peer acceptance/recognition. 

Nonbelievers will insist that Kuniba sensei never wrote the scroll because Kuniba sensei said he didn't; but, if he did (and denied), he was only using the title "soke" out of mere courtesy and didn't mean to support Mr. Church as a bonafide soke.

I cannot reconcile Mr. Church's stories about Dai Yoshin Ryu and personally, I think it is fabrication (he would have been 9 at the time, the period was only 3 years, he called both father and son by the same name, he used different names for the family style.... etc.).

Also: later, as an adult, I thought his stories about Kuniba sensei, Hayashi sensei, and the ranks were mostly fabricated ..... until photos of the certificates began to show up from former students (they would take photos of themselves standing next to the certificates on the wall). Since I now had the limited ability to read Japanese, I was able to discern that everything (so far) he has said about his ranks and authorizations from Kuniba sensei and Okuyama sensei -- have proven accurate.

Regards,
Guy Power
... who still remains solidly objective with regard to empirical data.


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## kamishinkan (Feb 27, 2006)

That is the understanding I had as well. We always "believed" the history with a certain amount of "faith". It is a breath of fresh air (or maybe sigh of relief!!!) to have these documents to back up the history we have been told. Thanks again Power sensei!

As far as "Dai-Yoshin" stuff.....I was always under the impression that Church sensei's studies in 1939 was in "Judo/Jujutsu" and the "Dai-Yoshin" name came from his idea that the Jujutsu instructor had trained in Daito and Yoshin Ryu(s). I think that maybe Church sensei may have been the one that used that name at first but to everyone I know in Kamishin, that was never "played up" as far as history. I think the real imbellishment came much later from Mr. Sachronowski by trying to claim "inheritance" from this so-called art. JEEZ!
It kind of reminds me of my first art, I trained with a black belt (also my friends dad) in Eishin Ryu. It was not formal training (me and my friend trained at his house in the back yard, mostly sparring and some kata, years later I recognized the kata Sanchin). For me to try and remember much about that would be a stretch to say the least. I don't think I could really remember without a shadow of doubt his name, rank, etc. He was my friends dad, sir, as I recall and I think he was a 3rd degree? 
Maybe it was like that for Church sensei as well. Too bad about the later Sachronowski involvement, It would have just stayed as internal information concerning Church sensei's first training.

Darrell Collins
Kamishinkan Dojo


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## ghp (Feb 27, 2006)

Hello Darrell,

Mr. Church once told me he didn't remember the name of the instructor or the style of jujutsu he studied in 1939.  My father (b. 1930) told me that in 1939 he studied "jujitsu" at the YMCA in Columbus, Georgia.  I suppose "judo" was often called "jujitsu" then, and it was all the rage ("Mr. Moto" -- Peter Lorre -- was using jujustu moves in 1937). 

The "Dai Yoshin Ryu" stuff came up in a 6 June 1971 article about Mr. Church written by the Charleston Courier & News sports reporter.  In that article Mr. Church relayed the same story about being bounced around the school yard by a smaller, Asian boy, then followed him home to learn jujutsu -- etc. I was at the dojo that night and remember the photo session.  Harold Martin was visiting from either the army or university; he was semi-legendary in the dojo and the older students (I was 17) spoke of him reverently in his absence.

I agree with you in that I never heard Mr. Church claim ranking or "rights" to the "Dai Yoshin Ryu" lineage; that came after his death from another person.  

Cheers,
Guy


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## Don Roley (Feb 28, 2006)

ghp said:
			
		

> I think Don Roley's reading of my translation is accurate -- the scroll does not "advance" or "promote" Mr. Church to soke; but it does use the title in conjunction with his name. This is the point where believers and nonbelievers will never reconcile.
> 
> Believers will insist that the personal relationship between Mr. Kuniba and Mr. Church was such that the use of "soke" for Mr. Church was a peer-to-peer acceptance/recognition.
> 
> Nonbelievers will insist that Kuniba sensei never wrote the scroll because Kuniba sensei said he didn't; but, if he did (and denied), he was only using the title "soke" out of mere courtesy and didn't mean to support Mr. Church as a bonafide soke.



Well, I don't have a horse in this race, and obviously don't even know all the arguments and facts about the matter.

But even so, based on my long experience in Japan I would say that it would only be common Japanese courtesy to use a title that someone said they had in any type of formal communication. To not use it in that type of situation would be a very large slap across the face. I can't put too much into the simple use of the term by itself in this context.

I am wondering if any of the people that support the opposite belief have lived in Japan and can communicate in Japanese at a level of being able to read a newspaper. Is there?


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## kamishinkan (Feb 28, 2006)

Power sensei,

 That is what I had heard also. Obviously, the only proof or disproof of the story in paper clip (I have that one as well) is "laid to rest". Even if he "fluffed" the info for the newspaper, it certainly was not to the extreme that was later claimed by a certain gentleman I don't want to discuss.

 Harold helps me out GREATLY with all of this info (the stuff he can remember). He is a WORLD of information to me and the guys! It is great having someone of his experience with me. We get together every week for breakfast and I pick his brain. 

Darrell Collins
Kamishinkan Dojo


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## ghp (Feb 28, 2006)

Hello Don,

Your observations, vis-a-vis Japanese (and most other polite people/groups), are correct: be polite and call a soi-disant colonel or professor by his self-assumed title/rank. However, the crux of *this* story is that Kuniba sensei knew Mr. Church -- and stayed at his house when in the Sagamihara area (for a week on one occasion); he read and borrowed the "Koh Scroll"; then, he actively assisted Mr. Church in reworking the "Tekken Ryu" system into a "Japanese" system called "Kamishinryu".  In this case, I do not think "common courtesy" was being displayed by Kuniba sensei as he took an active part in helping Mr. Church codify his system. Kuniba suggested the name "Kamishin" [Godly Heart] as a pun on the "Church" name etymology. Same for Mr. Church's "adopted" Japanese name: he suggested _Kanda_ [God's rice-field] for Church; and for Albert (meaning "bright/noble") he chose _Takashi_ meaning "esteem/noble" [see kanji #5794 in the New Nelson's Dictionary]. 

There is no doubt that years later, Kuniba sensei denied in writing that he had anything to do with Mr. Church except teach him Shitoryu and Iaido. If that letter expressed Kuniba sensei's true feelings, I am at a loss as to why he attended Mr. Church's memorial enbukai and issued documents recognizing and supporting Mrs. Church as kaicho of Kamishinryu? (I have copies of those documents in both Japanese and English). I believe Mr. Kuniba's letter was localized "damage control" and he was responding to a detractor's letter; perhaps he did not intend his letter of denial to achieve such currency. 

Now -- just to throw a bit of objectivity into this stew: I am well aware that Mr. Church embellished some of his stories; I'm also cognizant that many of his assertions have proven true. Therefore, I still have my threshing basket in hand and am prepared to separate the wheat from the chaff. Stories about his inheriting a Korean/Chinese fighting system will remain -- to me -- apocryphical until I get a copy of the Koh Scroll and read it.

Regards,
Guy
[who on occasion -- with difficulty and "Nelson's" -- can almost read a Japanese newspaper)    and can at least translate WWII-era books and documents.]

[Edited to change "thrashing" to the correct "threshing"]


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## jujutsu_indonesia (Feb 28, 2006)

I am so happy this thread remains friendly and does not degenerate into verbal NHB that I have seen so many times in E-Budo! 

Thank you Mr. Powers for the insights!


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## kamishinkan (Feb 28, 2006)

jujutsu_indonesia said:
			
		

> I am so happy this thread remains friendly and does not degenerate into verbal NHB that I have seen so many times in E-Budo!quote]
> 
> It tries to get heated at times, but the only REAL way to get to the bottom of things is to approach it without all of the political fueding and emotions that go along with it!
> As far as the Koh scroll, etc.....I too try to keep myself open BUT I must say the more information that comes out and proves Church sensei's claims the EASIER it is to believe the few things that have not been proven. Take this from someone who stayed with Kamishin Ryu walking in "faith", so to speak, during the times when it appeared that Church sensei was completely lying (if you listen to the opinions of posters on the martial forums). Now with all of the information we have *proving* Church sensei's claims, as far as I am concerned, the law of averages is beginning to work for us.
> ...


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