# Is loyalty over rated.



## scottie (Dec 7, 2011)

I was gonna pontificate about loyalty but instead I will Just ask. Is it wrong to leave or find another Sensei If your not learning anything where you are. Not talking being a Karate Jipsey. I talking about finding someone that is amazing and cares about doing it right. Even if it means the newer Sensei being lower than the present one. I mean would it be better to be a 4th dan under say an 8th dan or a 1st dan under a 5th dan even if the 5th Dan requires more for 1st dan, than the 8th does for 4th dan. I personally*&#8203;* would much rather have the knowledge than the rank. 
what do you all think.


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## Native (Dec 7, 2011)

Hi Scottie,

Good question. I find the longer I train, the less I am concerned with my rank. Everyone trains for different reasons and most people, I would guess, enjoy moving up in rank. But I believe the most important thing is to feel like you belong and can grow in your community. If you are not getting what you need, then moving on is a reasonable option. Respect can be shown by thanking your Sensei for all he/she has taught you and to continue your training, even if it is elsewhere.

I've seen very high ranking students leave the the arts all together because they were bored. It's too bad they did not continue their training elsewhere. They could have found that spark again.

Edit:
Just noticed you have been training for over 20 years, so you probably already know everything I just said. Sounds like you are having a hard time convincing yourself of what you know you should do.  I've wondered how hard it would be to leave my Master of almost 10 years even if I felt it was best for my MA growth... and I have no idea. Good luck.


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## Blindside (Dec 7, 2011)

Loyalty to your instructor is great, but there has to be "loyalty to yourself" as well.  If you feel your journey could be better somewhere else, don't you owe it to yourself to pursue it?  Same thing from an instructor to a student, if a student has outgrown me, it is time for him to move on, and I shouldn't let my ego get in the way of that, that is my obligation (loyalty) to my student.


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## Bill Mattocks (Dec 7, 2011)

scottie said:


> I was gonna pontificate about loyalty but instead I will Just ask. Is it wrong to leave or find another Sensei If your not learning anything where you are. Not talking being a Karate Jipsey. I talking about finding someone that is amazing and cares about doing it right. Even if it means the newer Sensei being lower than the present one. I mean would it be better to be a 4th dan under say an 8th dan or a 1st dan under a 5th dan even if the 5th Dan requires more for 1st dan, than the 8th does for 4th dan. I personally would much rather have the knowledge than the rank.
> what do you all think.



I hear you.  Fortunately for me, my sensei is more than I could have ever hoped for in an instructor and a mentor.  You know him, so I'm sure you know what I'm talking about.  I doubt I'll live long enough to find myself wondering if I could go farther with another instructor.  But I can sure see how it could happen.


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## Steve (Dec 7, 2011)

Loyalty is important, but you can be loyal to a person and still leave their school.  Personally, loyalty does not mean to me that you must continue paying an instructor for lessons and never leave their school.  Rather, for me, if you are transparent and honest with the person, you can be loyal even if you have to leave.  

There are a lot of reasons to stay with a school and a lot of reasons to leave a school.  I personally really like the guys I train with and have no reason to leave.  But if I had to leave, I'd make sure I do it without animosity and on good terms.


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## scottie (Dec 7, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I hear you.  Fortunately for me, my sensei is more than I could have ever hoped for in an instructor and a mentor.  You know him, so I'm sure you know what I'm talking about.  I doubt I'll live long enough to find myself wondering if I could go farther with another instructor.  But I can sure see how it could happen.


And  Bill, The Guy you met is the "5th Dan" in the story. he is the same for me. I am just catching grief from the other guy.


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## Bill Mattocks (Dec 8, 2011)

scottie said:


> And  Bill, The Guy you met is the "5th Dan" in the story. he is the same for me. I am just catching grief from the other guy.



Yeah, I understand.  I feel for ya, brother.


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## Carol (Dec 8, 2011)

I don't think loyalty is overrated.

However, I do think loyalty is misinterpreted.   Jack Welch (former GE CEO) wrote in one of his books that many folks mistake loyalty with longevity or tenure.

Mr. Welch emphasizes that true loyalty has little to do with time in position. Longevity means the person has showed up and stayed there, loyalty means the person brings their A game with them and truly performed...as well as advanced.  He even touched upon how loyalty  also means the person leaving the job when it is time move onward.   A  seminar I took tied in this concept with the story of a local  businesswoman who had a job she loved but decided to leave to follow new  opportunities for advancement.  She transitioned in such a way that she  not only left her company on good terms but she also became an ally of  her old company while moving forward in her new position. 

In other words, loyalty means making the most of one's performance as well as the circumstances therein.

Personally I've spent time on the mat with enthusiastic beginner  students giving there absolute all to their mat time, diligent  intermediate students exploding with joy when discovering a deeper  meaning to what they are doing, and mopey advanced students that can't  even be bothered to hold a pad correctly, let alone do the drill  properly. 

I'm inclined to agree with Mr. Welch's definition of loyalty.


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## shesulsa (Dec 8, 2011)

There is loyalty and then there is cult of personality.  I see the second a lot.  

It's just like everything else - you can be loyal, just don't get trampled on.


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## K-man (Dec 17, 2011)

Loyalty is a two way street.  I recently left the organisation I trained with for over 20 years.  Loyalty, or lack of it at the very top, was part of my decision to leave.  At the end of the day it was great decision.

My first sensei was 8th Dan and I felt we were stagnating.  Now I have affiliated with another group, headed by another 8th Dan. Now we a growing again. Some of my students wanted to remain with the original organisation and they left me with my best wishes.  I didn't receive the same courtesy!

I can imagine several situations where it would be appropriate to move.  But, a lot of people people are insecure. Their present rank might not be recognised. It takes a bit to go back to white belt!


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## Buka (Dec 17, 2011)

Carol said:


> I don't think loyalty is overrated.
> 
> However, I do think loyalty is misinterpreted.



That says it all right there. Well said.


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## Manny (Dec 28, 2011)

I been there. I have a very good master, he is a very capable one,has a lot of bagage in the sports arena as an international referee, he is a man of respect, who cares about his children (students), has a nice dojo, my master is a jewel however, some times I feel I can not get more about him, for example he has not a men full class, his classes are about kids, teens and moms, you know, very sporty classes, and sometimes I feel I am not learning new stuff, the stuff I want. I am a senior instructor in the dojo and love to teach, I reach two men and try to do my best, however I want to learn new stuff too, that's why I did crosstraining a year ago.

Loyalty..... offcourse my master deserves all my loyalty however I need some things he can't give me, and want to grow a litte and become better with myself.

So yes, sometimes I feel loyalty is overrated.

Manny


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## Black Belt Jedi (Dec 30, 2011)

I have met students that came from others schools enroll in my school because their old Senseis were either not teaching them properly or being too egotistical and tyrannical. At the end of the day that individual has to make a choice to either stay loyal to their Sensei no matter what or leave if the situation doesn't benefit him or her. So loyalty in the Martial Arts can be overrated. On a couple of occasions some of my classmates quit my school and gone somewhere else to train because they didn't have the heart to advance their training. Like my Sensei told me and everyone else, "If you don't like the training here, you're better off training someplace else."


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## puunui (Jan 24, 2012)

scottie said:


> I was gonna pontificate about loyalty but instead I will Just ask. Is it wrong to leave or find another Sensei If your not learning anything where you are. Not talking being a Karate Jipsey. I talking about finding someone that is amazing and cares about doing it right. Even if it means the newer Sensei being lower than the present one. I mean would it be better to be a 4th dan under say an 8th dan or a 1st dan under a 5th dan even if the 5th Dan requires more for 1st dan, than the 8th does for 4th dan. I personally*&#8203;* would much rather have the knowledge than the rank.
> what do you all think.



You should ask permission to train with another instructor, and your instructor should gladly and without reservation give that permission.


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## OwlMatt (Feb 16, 2012)

Martial artists train because they feel that training meets a need. If that need is not being met where you are, you are perfectly justified in going somewhere else. I disagree with Puunui above: it's your time and your training and you don't need to ask permission from anyone else before deciding what to do with it. It would be nice, though, to let your instructor know what's going on rather than just disappearing. If you've learned a lot from him, you owe him at least that much.

As for the question of rank, I've always believed that it's more important to have an instructor who fits you well than an instructor with a high rank.


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## seasoned (Feb 16, 2012)

Only to those that don't ascribe to it...........


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