# On killing...



## Carol (Jan 5, 2007)

In a few different discussions about MA training, I have seen comments from people saying that they will fight another person but they will not kill another person.  The reason cited was one of faith.  

I don't think anyone here would particularly want to kill a person.  

Assuming a legally justifyable situation - would you kill?


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 5, 2007)

I do not think I can answer this question.

I can say yes or no but truth be known I will not truly know unless I find myself in a situation that may require it.... and I hope I never do.


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## Kacey (Jan 5, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> I do not think I can answer this question.
> 
> I can say yes or no but truth be known I will not truly know unless I find myself in a situation that may require it.... and I hope I never do.



I think this pretty much covers it.

I will add that I see a difference between the heat of the moment (defense of self and/or others) and other times.  That is, I think, the difficulty with execution of criminals, no matter how dire the crime(s):  how removed from the situation must one be to still consider it self-defense?  And is defense of society in the abstract (execution of criminals) the same as defense of self and others during the execution of a crime?  How to decide?  Where to draw the line?  Like Xue, I don't have an answer to this, and hope to never confront it directly.


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## sankaku-jime (Jan 5, 2007)

In the heat of the moment who knows, if its a case of kill of be killed I dont think most people would think twice about it, after the event it would be a different matter.


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## Infinite (Jan 5, 2007)

In regards to myself I do not know... I don't think anyone knows except for maybe a LEO who really has to consider it on a daily if not minutely basis.

I can say that I wouldn't hesitate to kill if I thought someone was going to seriously harm / kill / possibly kill / someone I loved.

That situation I thought I was facing once and I was ready. It turned out I wasn't facing it  which I am OH SO HAPPY ABOUT.

Before you ask, A friend got jumped and I thought I saw someone reaching for a weapon but he was just pulling his pants back up. To be honest jumped was 3 guys came up but he and one guy went toe to toe the others just stood back like I did.


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## rutherford (Jan 5, 2007)

Yep.  

I was born with a certain amount of moral flexibility.

I've never tried to kill anybody, nor would I try to do so if I saw any other option. 

However, I'm going to assume that anybody who tries to harm me or another has a similar lack of barriers and take appropriate action.


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## tshadowchaser (Jan 5, 2007)

Not sure as I would like to be on this but I believe that given the right circumstances I would take a life without blinking an eye.  I truly believe that there are people out there that have or will forfeit their right to life for the things they have done in the past or will do in the future. To protect myself, family, the weak, or friends from death, torture, rape, etc. I think I might take a life.
I also believe that what is just is not always what is legal but that is a different discussion


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## SFC JeffJ (Jan 5, 2007)

It just takes conditioning.  If you have the conditioning, it's very easy to kill.  There just needs to be some discipline involved with the conditioning so you aren't a sociopath as well.

Jeff


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## Infinite (Jan 5, 2007)

JeffJ said:


> It just takes conditioning.  If you have the conditioning, it's very easy to kill.  There just needs to be some discipline involved with the conditioning so you aren't a sociopath as well.
> 
> Jeff



Sociopathic / Psychotic are mental conditions that require a specific physiology. You can not train someone into these states they are born that way.

Ruthless thug on the other hand with no value of life would appear to be very similar


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## Bob Hubbard (Jan 5, 2007)

To me, killing is wrong, no matter how you spin the term.
I train, hoping to never have to use what I know.
But if I was in a situation where I had no choice to do so or I or mine would die, then I'd probably do so. But I hope I never have to find out.


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## SFC JeffJ (Jan 5, 2007)

Bob Hubbard said:


> To me, killing is wrong, no matter how you spin the term.
> I train, hoping to never have to use what I know.
> But if I was in a situation where I had no choice to do so or I or mine would die, then I'd probably do so. But I hope I never have to find out.


I got to disagree with you on that Bob.  Killing is not wrong, murder is.


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## SFC JeffJ (Jan 5, 2007)

I just wanted to clarify my thoughts from my previous post.

Once someone decides to ignore your, how I hate how this phrase is percieved now, right to life, as far as I'm concerned, they forfiet their own.  So if someone tries to kill me and I end up killing them, I'm performing a public service as far as I'm concerned.

Jeff


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## tshadowchaser (Jan 5, 2007)

I'll agree one hundred percent with that statement Jeff


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## elder999 (Jan 5, 2007)

rutherford said:


> Yep.
> 
> I was born with a certain amount of moral flexibility.


 
Well, have a look  at this post. 

I also have a fair amount of moral flexibility, or ambiguity-not something one wants to find out about oneself the way I did-at least, that was my experience. I'm older, now, though, and-while I know I'd have no problems eating a couple of sandwiches, making love to my wife and getting a good night's sleep afterwards, well, _I wouldn't be happy about it._


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## tellner (Jan 5, 2007)

Ah yes, The Decision. There's a lot that could be said about it. It's one of the most fundamental questions and bears thinking and reflection from time to time. A lot of people take up martial arts in a strange way to avoid making it. They figure that if they're really good they can neutralize attacks without the risk of hurting or killing someone else. Others - you find them in the gun forums a lot - are really keen on the idea of zipping a bad guy. Most of them have never seen violent death up close.

Two very good books on the subject are Lt. Col. Grossman's On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society and Massad Ayoob's In the Gravest Extreme . Ayoob is a little handgun-specific, but the essential material is very good for anyone looking at these issues. 

I would strongly urge anyone with an interest in these matters and particularly anyone who carries a weapon to take Mr. Ayoob's class LFI-1 "Judicious Use of Deadly Force". You'll get a superb twenty hours of the legal and ethical parameters of the use of force and deadly force. Some of it is emotionally difficult. I had a couple sleepless nights. It is solid gold. Lawyers in attendance said the treatment of the legal issues was better than what they got in law school. The second half of the course is twenty hours of world-class instruction in practical pistolcraft. One does not have to take the shooting portion of the program.

I've never killed anyone and fervently hope not to. But I have drawn weapons when I thought my life was in danger and to protect others, and I believe that I would have been able to do what I had to if the situation hadn't suddenly improved. Would it have been moral? Yes. My life is worth infinitely more to me than that of someone who criminally puts it in jeopardy. By extension, the criminal who puts the innocent at risk forfeits the compassion and consideration to which people are entitled. Would it be something I would enjoy and walk away from unscathed? Certainly not. If you have a functioning forebrain and conscience the act of taking a life is significant and traumatic.

To make a somewhat stronger statement I deeply believe that there are times when it would be immoral to the point of depravity not to take a human life. If our spouses, children, guests or others under our protection are under threat of death or terrible injury including sexual assault, violent robbery, kidnapping or arson and one can only prevent it by killing the evil doer it is morally required to pull the trigger or swing the sword. Anything else is an abdication of the most fundamental moral imperative. Any parent, wife or husband who would fail to do so for whatever personal reason is the worst sort of scum and could take lessons in moral philosophy from any cat with kittens and things with too many legs that guard their brood at the bottom of ponds. 

Some of this is personal. Some is from my religion(s). "We have been told in the Torah 'If someone comes to kill you rise up and kill him first.' " or 
 "Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loves not transgressors. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; ... But if they cease, God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevails justice and faith in God; but if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression" (2:190-193).


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## rutherford (Jan 5, 2007)

elder999 said:


> _I wouldn't be happy about it._


 
:asian:


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## morph4me (Jan 5, 2007)

tshadowchaser said:


> Not sure as I would like to be on this but I believe that given the right circumstances I would take a life without blinking an eye. I truly believe that there are people out there that have or will forfeit their right to life for the things they have done in the past or will do in the future. To protect myself, family, the weak, or friends from death, torture, rape, etc. I think I might take a life.
> I also believe that what is just is not always what is legal but that is a different discussion


 
Agreed, I wouldn't be happy about it, but I'd do it.

 I don't know how you can defend yourself without being willing to do what is necessary, or how you can not understand that if you do defend yourself, you can kill someone without intending to. 

You hit someone, or push someone, he falls and slams his head against a step, curb, bumper and fractures his skull and dies, you didn't intend to do anything but make him stop, but he dies.


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## MA-Caver (Jan 5, 2007)

JeffJ said:


> I got to disagree with you on that Bob.  Killing is not wrong, murder is.
> 
> I just wanted to clarify my thoughts from my previous post.
> 
> Once someone decides to ignore your, how I hate how this phrase is percieved now, right to life, as far as I'm concerned, they forfiet their own. So if someone tries to kill me and I end up killing them, I'm performing a public service as far as I'm concerned.



I am of like mind on this pattern of thought. A person who is willing to take a life has no regard for it, otherwise they would not be willing to take it. To stop a person as far as you can from killing/murdering is noble and worth while effort. In some cases it can't be helped but to end that life to save another... especially your own and your love ones. Some people want that life taken so badly they'll stop at nothing. We've read dozens of threads in regards to this. One of the most poigant examples is the new-boyfriend killing the ex-boyfriend when he broke into their home armed with a handgun. There are other examples as well. 
Nobody except those of mind to wants to take a life. Yet sometimes it's necessary because at the moment there was no-other-way. How one deals with it depends upon the person. 
Sheeple won't kill the wolves no matter what. Sheep dogs will if it's necessary.


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## bushidomartialarts (Jan 5, 2007)

i believe i would do it if immediately threatened -- although i probably wouldn't 'kill' so much as keep hurting, which may eventually wind up killing, if you get what i'm saying.

corollary question:  killing in self-defense is clear cut while you're being attacked.  what about less clear-cut situations.  a gang banger within arm's reach says he's going to his car to get his gun.  your daughter is being stalked by a guy who says he'll kill her.  

thoughts?


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## theletch1 (Jan 5, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> In a few different discussions about MA training, I have seen comments from people saying that they will fight another person but they will not kill another person. The reason cited was one of faith.
> 
> I don't think anyone here would particularly want to kill a person.
> 
> Assuming a legally justifyable situation - would you kill?


Yes, Carol.  I would.


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## Blotan Hunka (Jan 5, 2007)

What other option is there...die? If you can resolve the situation without killing of course you should otherwise you are going to be in trouble. If its kill or be killed, Im opting for kill.


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## elder999 (Jan 5, 2007)

bushidomartialarts said:


> icorollary question: killing in self-defense is clear cut while you're being attacked. what about less clear-cut situations. a gang banger within arm's reach says he's going to his car to get his gun. your daughter is being stalked by a guy who says he'll kill her.
> 
> thoughts?


 
The desert is full of holes just waiting for the bodies of guys like that to fill them.


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## Tames D (Jan 6, 2007)

Blotan Hunka said:


> What other option is there...die? If you can resolve the situation without killing of course you should otherwise you are going to be in trouble. If its kill or be killed, Im opting for kill.


Agreed.


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## MA-Caver (Jan 6, 2007)

elder999 said:


> The desert is full of holes just waiting for the bodies of guys like that to fill them.



I happen to know of a good half dozen (abandoned) mine-shafts out in Utah that'll do just as well.


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## SFC JeffJ (Jan 6, 2007)

MA-Caver said:


> I happen to know of a good half dozen (abandoned) mine-shafts out in Utah that'll do just as well.


Hog farms don't work half bad either.


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## German Coach (Jan 6, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> In a few different discussions about MA training, I have seen comments from people saying that they will fight another person but they will not kill another person. The reason cited was one of faith.
> 
> I don't think anyone here would particularly want to kill a person.
> 
> Assuming a legally justifyable situation - would you kill?


 
Only if I am forced to, that means if I would have no other chance. For example if my family or my own life would be in serious danger like in a war.


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## Tames D (Jan 6, 2007)

MA-Caver said:


> I happen to know of a good half dozen (abandoned) mine-shafts out in Utah that'll do just as well.


I've seen a few of these in the Mojave Desert where we ride our bikes.


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## elder999 (Jan 6, 2007)

MA-Caver said:


> _I happen to know of a good half dozen (abandoned) mine-shafts out in Utah that'll do just as well._
> .


 
Yeah, but if you know of them, so do a few other cavers......

I'm all about repentance, anyway....back east, there would be nothing like the long boat ride, preaching to the guy sitting at the stern as the concrete set around his ankles, letting him know that if he'd been correct, he'd be sleeping in his own bed instead of with the fishes. Out here, the equivalent is the catharsis of digging a hole and preaching to his duct-taped, wide-eyed face, letting him know that if his behavior had been correct, he'd be sleeping in bed instead of what will become his unmarked grave.

Mind you, this is strictly for my daughter's stalker, or the equivalent......and has more to do with how I feel, not what I think....


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 6, 2007)

*HEY!!!*

It was about could you kill..... NOT Where you would hide the bodies :uhyeah:


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## elder999 (Jan 6, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> *HEY!!!*
> 
> It was about could you kill..... NOT Where you would hide the bodies :uhyeah:


 

Well, they'd be alive when I dropped them off the boat, or buried them.So, technically, I wouldn't be "hiding bodies," now, would I?:idunno:


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 6, 2007)

elder999 said:


> Well, they'd be alive when I dropped them off the boat, or buried them.So, technically, I wouldn't be "hiding bodies," now, would I?:idunno:


 
OK you got me on a technicality, so then I guess your answer is you would not kill 

And suddenly I find myself thinking of the song Alice&#8217;s restaurant and the group W bench.


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## tellner (Jan 8, 2007)

Hog farms? Bricktop Lives! 

Some people advocate the SSS method - Shoot, shovel, shut up

I put greater faith in Murphy's Law. If I try to hide a body I will get caught. That will turn a good shoot into aggravated murder. So I'll do everything to make sure it's a good shoot and that I'm the guy who calls the police first.


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## chris_&#3617;&#3623;&#3618;&#3652;&#3607;&#3618; (Jan 9, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> In a few different discussions about MA training, I have seen comments from people saying that they will fight another person but they will not kill another person. The reason cited was one of faith.
> 
> I don't think anyone here would particularly want to kill a person.
> 
> Assuming a legally justifyable situation - would you kill?


 
i wouldnt kill anyone , i dont have the guts!:angel:


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## DArnold (Jan 9, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> In a few different discussions about MA training, I have seen comments from people saying that they will fight another person but they will not kill another person.  The reason cited was one of faith.
> 
> I don't think anyone here would particularly want to kill a person.
> 
> Assuming a legally justifyable situation - would you kill?



Carol,
Not a problem.  I could come up with many situations where you would want to kill someone.

But it seems like a younger persons question where you are looking for a definite yes or no answer.  I can give you situations that would probably force you to say "yes I would" and other situations that would make you say "certainly not".  And they all depend on the situation.  Once you loose the ability to change your mind then you walk a slippery slope where you feel you are taking some kind of high ground (moral, religious, or whatever) because you don't have to think or use reason. There can be all kinds of grey areas and mitigating circumstances.

This is like our last presidental election where people were call "flip-floppers" because they changed their mind. As if changing your mind is a bad thing!:barf:God, we teach our children to learn from their mistakes and change their mind.  I am very sceptical about politicians who never think.  Many times in life we don't know which way to turn and we make the best decision we can from the information we have at the time.  If it's right we are a hero, if it's wrong, we learn and change our mind.

I teach rape prevention courses and as far as the psychology goes, whatever decision you make is the right one when being attacked.  No one has the right to second guess your decision or tell you what you should have done.  They may not attach their values, religion, morals... to what you decide (There is no such thing as an armchair defendent after the fact - your opinions just don't matter).

On the other hand it is interesting to get other peoples thought process.
But you know what they say about opinions.:ultracool

In my situation I have children and if someone was to mess with them I have no qualms about taking them out. (there's one situation)

As good ol' Winston said, "If your young and you're not liberal... then you got no heart.  If your old and your not conservative... then you got no brains".

When I was young and a religious zealot I would have answered, "No way"
Now, I'm older and have a family and I answer, "No Problem"
So I guess I'm a flip-flopper

This in no way removes any religious, social, or moral beliefs that I have!

The reason you should talk about these things is to clairify what the effects may be on you.  Short and long term, not just yes or no.  The given are already there: Greif, shock, anger, fear...  but should you controll the situation or should the situation controll you?

Discuss particular scenarios and your thought process will become clearer.

Case in point:  My wife worked in a bad section of town.  Should I have her cary an illegal firearm.  Think this through and what all the possible outcomes could be.  Who  would this affect,  how long, what do pro and con gun groups say, what is the law...

If you would like to know, I will discuss this further.


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## Carol (Jan 10, 2007)

DArnold said:


> Carol,
> Not a problem. I could come up with many situations where you would want to kill someone.
> 
> But it seems like a younger persons question where you are looking for a definite yes or no answer.


 
The question may be taken on any level you wish.   Good to have your input as well as everyone else's.


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## Solidman82 (Jan 10, 2007)

I'm not sure there would ever be a situation that I would NEED to kill. Maiming can work sometimes. And sometimes, people just should die. But Karma will probably do the trick anyway. But what do I know? I'm still young.


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## wade (Jan 10, 2007)

Since we have opened up to the military aspect well, yes. In Nam I was with the marines. Our unit's motto was "Death is our business and business is good". But it think the sniper section had it down a little better,there motto was  "all I feel when I kill is recoil". Of course they were an odd little bunch of people, friendly, but still odd. Would I kill,yes, have I killed, yes, have I ever murdered anyone, no, it's not the same thing. Self defense, it the situation required it, you bet.


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## matt.m (Jan 10, 2007)

I have been in combat on three continents and one island while in the Marines.  I am here to tell you that I am with Jeff 100 percent...killing is not murder.  I have five rows of ribbons and medals that show this to be true.


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## tellner (Jan 10, 2007)

Killing is not murder, but if it becomes too easy that can be a serious problem.


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## KempoGuy06 (Jan 18, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> In a few different discussions about MA training, I have seen comments from people saying that they will fight another person but they will not kill another person. The reason cited was one of faith.
> 
> I don't think anyone here would particularly want to kill a person.
> 
> Assuming a legally justifyable situation - would you kill?


 
If i found myself in a situation where it was me or the other person yes i would take their life. Or if it was to protect my family or friends i would as well. 

Would i suffer from this act? Yes. It would haunt me for the rest of my life probably, but when it comes to preservation or your own life or friends/familys life you dont think you only act.

B


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## Brother John (Jan 18, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> In a few different discussions about MA training, I have seen comments from people saying that they will fight another person but they will not kill another person.  The reason cited was one of faith.
> 
> I don't think anyone here would particularly want to kill a person.
> 
> Assuming a legally justifyable situation - would you kill?


if it was legally justifyable, then it was probably necessary in order to save my life and or the lives of others, like those I love.
So YES I would kill.

But that's a pretty big stretch and MOST of humanity will never be called upon to make such a decision.
thank God


Your Brother
John


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## Shirt Ripper (Jan 18, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> would you kill?


Yes.  But who can really know...


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## bcbernam777 (Jan 19, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> In a few different discussions about MA training, I have seen comments from people saying that they will fight another person but they will not kill another person.  The reason cited was one of faith.
> 
> I don't think anyone here would particularly want to kill a person.
> 
> Assuming a legally justifyable situation - would you kill?



Honestly I believe that to be one of those "in the moment" type things, and I am not talking about situational ethics. You never know what you are or are not capable of until the moment of truth. God give me the grace to never be in that moment.


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## grydth (Jan 23, 2007)

You can only ever try to answer these based on what your past experiences may be... the future could be far different.

For all I know in a future encounter, I could wet my pants and faint. 

In the past, I've always reacted quickly.... more a super adreniline rush than bravery of any sort. Yet... If the past is the measure, yes I would kill an adversary if forced to.

Fair is fair, Carol - how about you?


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## Carol (Jan 23, 2007)

grydth said:


> Fair is fair, Carol - how about you?


 
I know it is not something I would want to do.   An act like that changes a person forever.   My job has me constantly jumping from emergency to emergency.  The one martial benefit that I've been able to gain from that is being able to think clearly through an adrenaline dump.  

I wouldn't want to, for many reasons.  But if I had to, I'd say most likely yes, I could kill in that kind of situation.


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## JasonASmith (Jan 24, 2007)

My response is yes based on three things, and each of them are asleep in bed at the moment...Otherwise, no...
My wife is an intelligent, and spunky woman...If someone came after her with intent to kill, then she couldn't handle that person, and it's time for me to step in...
My kids are too young yet to know how to get out of a situation with their lives, so any situation involving their well-being WILL be met with extreme force, period...Be it hand-to-hand, or sawed-off to face, I don't care...NEVER, EVER will my children be abducted or beaten to death by anyone, period.
Yes, I am overly intense about this subject, and I know it, but the alternative is NOT exceptable, period...
WORD!


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## pstarr (Jan 24, 2007)

If my life or the lives of my family are endangered, you bet.


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