# Where did DM/COMBOS originate from



## MeatWad2 (Jan 12, 2007)

What style of martial arts are they derived from?


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## dj99526 (Jan 12, 2007)

MeatWad2 said:


> What style of martial arts are they derived from?


this link should help...scroll down to 1971-1988
http://www.kempokan.com/KempoHistory.html


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## MeatWad2 (Jan 14, 2007)

What style did they derrived from not master.
Every technique has a different style of martial arts influence.  
Whats the root of them?


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## Hand Sword (Jan 14, 2007)

Kajukenbo, with Sonny Gascon being a student of originally, then him, Leoning, Godin, into Karazenpo Go shinjutsu. to Pesare, Cerio, and Villari, in SKK ultimately. Each making changes along the way, with Villare adding 27-108 I believe. There are others that contributed, and I didn't mean to leave them out, just being basic as possible, for a quick response.


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## John Bishop (Jan 14, 2007)

Hand Sword said:


> Kajukenbo, with Sonny Gascon being a student of originally, then him, Leoning, Godin, into Karazenpo Go shinjutsu. to Pesare, Cerio, and Villari, in SKK ultimately. Each making changes along the way, with Villare adding 27-108 I believe. There are others that contributed, and I didn't mean to leave them out, just being basic as possible, for a quick response.



I would think that George Pesare had the biggest influence on what was to become Shaolin Kempo.  His training with Sonny Gascon was only 2-3 months in California.  But he trained for years in Tae Kwon Do, Judo, Hapkido, and other arts in Rhode Island.  
The SKK curriculum and Kajukenbo curriculum have been recorded on videos by Fred Villari and Adriano Emperado.  So anyone can verify this statement.  There are NO techniques or forms in SKK that are from Kajukenbo.


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## Hand Sword (Jan 14, 2007)

John Bishop said:


> I would think that George Pesare had the biggest influence on what was to become Shaolin Kempo. His training with Sonny Gascon was only 2-3 months in California. But he trained for years in Tae Kwon Do, Judo, Hapkido, and other arts in Rhode Island.
> The SKK curriculum and Kajukenbo curriculum have been recorded on videos by Fred Villari and Adriano Emperado. So anyone can verify this statement. There are NO techniques or forms in SKK that are from Kajukenbo.


 

Having been watching the recorded stuff of both I would agree with this (there are a few the same though, from watching GM Forbach's video). My only point was to not slight anyone, or style, (we've seen that can of worms-lol) was the first few guys were Kajukenbo students, and Mr. Pesare was taught by them, so, it was part of the chain, no matter how big the link is. However, the material, overall is different.


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## Danjo (Jan 14, 2007)

Hand Sword said:


> Having been watching the recorded stuff of both I would agree with this (there are a few the same though, from watching GM Forbach's video). My only point was to not slight anyone, or style, (we've seen that can of worms-lol) was the first few guys were Kajukenbo students, and Mr. Pesare was taught by them, so, it was part of the chain, no matter how big the link is. However, the material, overall is different.


 
Pesare said tha his only instructor in Kenpo was Gascon. He did not train with Godin or Leoning. He supposedly had 10 combinations from Gascon and 4 forms. From the descriptions of those combinations that I've been given, they not only did not ressemble Kajukenbo, but they do not resemble what SKK does now.

In SKK, there is only one part of one technique that looks similar to a technique from Kajukenbo. It is DM #4. However, the block is different and so is the finish of the technique.

SKK is basically Pesare, Cerio and Villari created. They deserve the full credit for it.


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## Gufbal1982 (Jan 14, 2007)

I think I see where Meatwad is leading with this thread.  I don't think he/she wants to know what GrandMaster or from what system they got taught from.  I think that Meatwad is asking how many different styles can be seen in the combinations/dm's/kempos can be represented.  In other words, in your humble opinion, what style influenced those particular masters to create specific combinations?  Let's take for instance, um, I don't know...like 12.  It could have come from Tae Kwon Do, seeing that it's timing their movement with a front kick, followed by a spinning back kick.  I'm hoping this is what meatwad means...because if it is, this thread can get really interesting then.


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## Danjo (Jan 14, 2007)

Gufbal1982 said:


> I think I see where Meatwad is leading with this thread. I don't think he/she wants to know what GrandMaster or from what system they got taught from. I think that Meatwad is asking how many different styles can be seen in the combinations/dm's/kempos can be represented. In other words, in your humble opinion, what style influenced those particular masters to create specific combinations? Let's take for instance, um, I don't know...like 12. It could have come from Tae Kwon Do, seeing that it's timing their movement with a front kick, followed by a spinning back kick. I'm hoping this is what meatwad means...because if it is, this thread can get really interesting then.


 
Ah so. A much better idea IMO to go with. Let's start with the order that they are taught then. I'll take DM/Cobo #6 since it's by far the easiest. Front-snap/Front-ball kick to the groin, then cross and cover. Sometimes done with a soft inward left hand parry. Pretty basic kick in the MA's. Even some forms of Kung Fu use it and call it things like Dragon Stamp Kick etc. If the inward parry is added, this brings an Escrima or Kung Fu flavor to it. Pesare claimed to study escrima, so this could be the source of it.

Here's Pesare's MA Bio from his website for future reference:

*"Grandmaster Pesare is a 10th Degree Black Belt and is the undisputed founder of Kempo Karate in New England.  The 10th Degree Black Belt level is one of the highest achievements in the Martial Arts community and is at the Professorship level.  Grandmaster Pesare began his martial arts career with Karazenpo-Go-Shinjutsu in 1958 with his instructor, Grandmaster Victor (Sonny) Gascon, one of the Kempo founders in America.  Grandmaster Gascon has since retired, and given the responsibility of teaching the true Karazenpo-Go-Shinjutsu to Grandmaster George Pesare.  Since then, Mr. Pesare continued his training in the following martial art disciplines: 

5th Degree Black Belt in Judo 
4th Degree Black Belt in Taekwondo 
4th Degree Black Belt in Eskrima 
2nd Degree Black Belt in Aikido "*


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## Gufbal1982 (Jan 14, 2007)

Danjo said:


> Ah so. A much better idea IMO to go with. Let's start with the order that they are taught then. I'll take DM/Cobo #6 since it's by far the easiest. Front-snap/Front-ball kick to the groin, then cross and cover. Sometimes done with a soft inward left hand parry. Pretty basic kick in the MA's. Even some forms of Kung Fu use it and call it things like Dragon Stamp Kick etc. If the inward parry is added, this brings an Escrima or Kung Fu flavor to it. Pesare claimed to study escrima, so this could be the source of it.


 
I hope Meatwad wants this thread like this...if not, sorry I took it over!  Anyway, I think the dragontrap block also adds a bit of a kung fu flavor...you could follow it up with a chin na type lock.


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## Matt (Jan 14, 2007)

Danjo said:


> Pesare said tha his only instructor in Kenpo was Gascon. He did not train with Godin or Leoning. He supposedly had 10 combinations from Gascon and 4 forms. From the descriptions of those combinations that I've been given, they not only did not ressemble Kajukenbo, but they do not resemble what SKK does now.


 
Actually, having seen SGM Pesare's folks performing techniques and forms, and having been to a seminar or two taught by SGM Pesare, I would beg to differ. I found substantial overlap between SGM Pesare's material and the katas and combinations (below 26) of SKK. 



> In SKK, there is only one part of one technique that looks similar to a technique from Kajukenbo. It is DM #4. However, the block is different and so is the finish of the technique.
> 
> SKK is basically Pesare, Cerio and Villari created. They deserve the full credit for it.



To your knowledge, there is only one that looks similar. This is however based on your Kajukenbo and SKK experience. What is now combination six (just a front kick) used to have a left parry and right hammer to the bicep with it. There's pictures (used to be on the KGS site) of Sonny Gascon doing it that way. Sound familiar? 

We're not looking to be 'the next kajukenbo', but we are trying to connect the historical dots.


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## Gufbal1982 (Jan 14, 2007)

Matt said:


> Actually, having seen SGM Pesare's folks performing techniques and forms, and having been to a seminar or two taught by SGM Pesare, I would beg to differ. I found substantial overlap between SGM Pesare's material and the katas and combinations (below 26) of SKK.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Matt, there is no doubt about where combinations 1-26 came from.  However, we're taking a different approach to find out what influences are represented in the kempo/combination/dm/name du jour.  a left parry and right hammer to the bicept gives the combination a bit of a kali feel...would you agree or not?


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## Danjo (Jan 15, 2007)

Matt said:


> Actually, having seen SGM Pesare's folks performing techniques and forms, and having been to a seminar or two taught by SGM Pesare, I would beg to differ. I found substantial overlap between SGM Pesare's material and the katas and combinations (below 26) of SKK.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Okay. Here's the description given to me by Joe Shuras of the original Karazenpo #3 combination: 

*Here's the orignal #3 as taught to George Pesare by Sonny Gascon. You're fighting two people. One in front and one behind. The one behind grabs you arms pinned (bear hug from behind), the one in front punches to your head. You duck and immediately punch, front two knuckle to groin and you're in a kneeling stance, right knee kneeling but not touching the floor. The drop down called 'duck & punch' releases the bear hug and the left elbow shoots to elbow position as a strike to the rear as you simultaneously punch the groin.. You then straighten back up with a cup & saucer (left fist over right fist) which is a full power elbow to the rear. Next, from that position you throw a right boxing uppercut to your opponent's jaw who was bent over from the blow to the groin, cross and cover, checking both downed opponents. "Joe"*

Which combination in SKK does this resemble and which counter in Kajukenbo does this resemble? To my mind: neither. The Punch Counter that you say Gascon was demonstrating is not the one used in SKK. Anything above combination 26 was made up by Villari or one of his students so that wouldn't apply to my statement. I'm referring to the original 10 combinations Pesare got from Gascon when I say they do not look like Kajukenbo nor SKK from what I've been told. I've seen all 26 SKK combos from both Mattera's tapes and Villari's dvds. I also have the Kajukenbo material through black belt, so my basis for comparison is pretty solid.


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## LawDog (Jan 15, 2007)

Danjo,
A few questions ,
I was shown #3 back in 1970, it wasn't the same as what you have described. Who exlained it to you that way?
You are correct, the early USSD instructors book had only 26 combinations in it, none where of a two vs one application, (I just re-read my original book).
The tapes of Matterias that you have seen, when were they produced?
Just curious, 
Al C.


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## Danjo (Jan 15, 2007)

LawDog said:


> Danjo,
> A few questions ,
> I was shown #3 back in 1970, it wasn't the same as what you have described. Who exlained it to you that way?
> You are correct, the early USSD instructors book had only 26 combinations in it, none where of a two vs one application, (I just re-read my original book).
> ...


 

Joe Shuras was the one that gave me the description. I merely cut and pasted it from an email I had from him a couple of years ago.

Mattera's tapes were made either in the late 90's or early 2000's. Master Black was only a 4th degree then if that helps any. Actually Gufbal1982 could probably tell us when those tapes were made.


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## Matt (Jan 15, 2007)

Danjo said:


> Okay. Here's the description given to me by Joe Shuras of the original Karazenpo #3 combination:
> 
> *Here's the orignal #3 as taught to George Pesare by Sonny Gascon. You're fighting two people. One in front and one behind. The one behind grabs you arms pinned (bear hug from behind), the one in front punches to your head. You duck and immediately punch, front two knuckle to groin and you're in a kneeling stance, right knee kneeling but not touching the floor. The drop down called 'duck & punch' releases the bear hug and the left elbow shoots to elbow position as a strike to the rear as you simultaneously punch the groin.. You then straighten back up with a cup & saucer (left fist over right fist) which is a full power elbow to the rear. Next, from that position you throw a right boxing uppercut to your opponent's jaw who was bent over from the blow to the groin, cross and cover, checking both downed opponents. "Joe"*



I'm familiar with that version, and I think you are confusing technique with application. SGM Pesare tends to emphasize 'power' moves, and explains just about every 'cup and saucer' in the kata series (he calls them pinions still) as a power rearward elbow toward an attacker behind you as well. However, the specific application of 3 you reference, courtesy of Joe Shuras fits a Hawaiian 2-man attack scenario reasonably well. Most current practitioners use a different application, but perform a remarkably similar move technically. Remove the two attackers and take a look at what the person doing combination 3 is doing:

*You duck and immediately punch, front two knuckle to groin and you're in a kneeling stance, right knee kneeling but not touching the floor.*

So, step forward left, right front two knuckle punch to the groin. Check. I think usually in Kajukenbo forms when you do that, you call it the running man stance and use a spearhand. 

*You then straighten back up with a cup & saucer (left fist over right fist) which is a full power elbow to the rear.*

So here, you straighten up, naturally shifting weight back toward the right leg while pulling the right hand back to chamber with the left arm horizontally across your midsection. Check. Most folks these days slide the hand across the opponent's back up to the near shoulder to help keep him bent over. Either way, the right hand is pulled to chamber and the left forearm is horizontal across the body at waist level. Same technique, slightly different application. 

*Next, from that position you throw a right boxing uppercut to your opponent's jaw who was bent over from the blow to the groin*

Today most folks call it a 'back two knuckle punch', and since the hand has helped him lean forward more, the temple is a logical target at that level. You guys don't do groin then face shots in Kajukenbo? I thought I had seen some but could be mistaken. 

*cross and cover, checking both downed opponents.*

In a two person technique, the takedown and punch might not make sense. In a one person technique, it seems both Kajukenbo and Shaolin Kempo people think it is a good idea to take a guy down to the ground and finish him there. It's funny how Kempo and Kajukenbo guys both cross and cover like that though. 





> Which combination in SKK does this resemble and which counter in Kajukenbo does this resemble? To my mind: neither.



To my mind, it pretty much resembles a more 'stiff' version of the three I do today. Similar biomechanically, but just described with a different application. It's almost like people could apply their combinations off of something other than a front punch if they tried. 

The person Joe Shuras is talking about receiving this description of combination three from is the same person who states that (to paraphrase pretty closely) with 7 forms and 22 combinations and some imagination you could have thousands of techniques. You just have to practice the basics and apply them. 



> The Punch Counter that you say Gascon was demonstrating is not the one used in SKK.



At the USSD you went to for a while. It's a variation that we teach in our school. 



> Anything above combination 26 was made up by Villari or one of his students so that wouldn't apply to my statement. I'm referring to the original 10 combinations Pesare got from Gascon when I say they do not look like Kajukenbo nor SKK from what I've been told.



Yet they do look like SKK based on what I've seen SGM Pesare and / or his black belts do. And the 'above 26' is sort of a 'rule of thumb'. There's some that may have been kempo techniques created by Nick Cerio that were adopted. The 'wholesale creation' portion came between 35 and 40. 



> I've seen all 26 SKK combos from both Mattera's tapes and Villari's dvds. I also have the Kajukenbo material through black belt, so my basis for comparison is pretty solid.



How about the folks who were there before Villari. How about the folks who were there  before Nick Cerio created Nick Cerio's Kenpo . They seem to describe something that overlaps pretty well. 

Again, I'm not trying to say that "Kajukenbo is Shaolin Kempo". What we who keep trying to draw a connection are trying to do is to set up a historical provenance. 

My brother and I both worked in a factory during high school, and some of the time that I should have been at college. We learned to assemble test equipment there. I went to college, he didn't, he's still there wiring amplifiers. What he and I do now is different. However, we still learned to strip wires there. We still tinker with electronics, but now do so differently and nobody would necessarily get us confused or assume we do the same thing. But we both worked at that factory. 

SKK shares some of the same DNA as Kajukenbo from a technical and strategic standpoint. They have become separate species. They still share a common ancestry.


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## marlon (Jan 15, 2007)

There is a definite Chow influence to SKK.  The chu'an fa branch of Kajukenbo seems to be more similar to skk than original method.  Let's remember that  kajukenbo has differences in it also.  There is kempo roots in SKK which seems to have a Naha te background; there is a sillum kung fu influence; jujitsu/ aiki jitsu; american boxing and GM William Chow, who is said to have learned kung fu from his father, although there is debate about this.  Apart from this as much as i know SKK is SKK.

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## Danjo (Jan 15, 2007)

Matt said:


> So, step forward left, right front two knuckle punch to the groin. Check. I think usually in Kajukenbo forms when you do that, you call it the running man stance and use a spearhand.


 
There are going to be a lot of techniques that are found in Kajukenbo that are found in other arts. Kajukenbo is a blending of various arts to begin with, but it doesn't make it the same thing. The above mentioned technique is not in one of the Counters in the Original Method (which is what Gascon and Leoning would have been studying back in the 50's), though it is in some of the Pinans/Palama sets.



Matt said:


> *You then straighten back up with a cup & saucer (left fist over right fist) which is a full power elbow to the rear.*
> 
> So here, you straighten up, naturally shifting weight back toward the right leg while pulling the right hand back to chamber with the left arm horizontally across your midsection. Check. Most folks these days slide the hand across the opponent's back up to the near shoulder to help keep him bent over. Either way, the right hand is pulled to chamber and the left forearm is horizontal across the body at waist level. Same technique, slightly different application.


 
I don't think this is in the #3 in either Villari's or Mattera's videos. After the punch to the groin, you pop up and the right hand swings up to a back fist to the temple while the left holds and pulls the attacker's right shoulder down and forward. I don't see any cup and saucer or elbow to the rear hear at all.



Matt said:


> *Next, from that position you throw a right boxing uppercut to your opponent's jaw who was bent over from the blow to the groin*
> 
> Today most folks call it a 'back two knuckle punch', and since the hand has helped him lean forward more, the temple is a logical target at that level. You guys don't do groin then face shots in Kajukenbo? I thought I had seen some but could be mistaken.


 
Sure we do. We also do front snap kicks, but that doesn't make us Shotokan Karate either.



Matt said:


> *cross and cover, checking both downed opponents.*
> 
> In a two person technique, the takedown and punch might not make sense. In a one person technique, it seems both Kajukenbo and Shaolin Kempo people think it is a good idea to take a guy down to the ground and finish him there. It's funny how Kempo and Kajukenbo guys both cross and cover like that though.


 
Again, the fact that SKK has it's people cross and cover after a technique does not make them the same thing.






Matt said:


> To my mind, it pretty much resembles a more 'stiff' version of the three I do today. Similar biomechanically, but just described with a different application. It's almost like people could apply their combinations off of something other than a front punch if they tried.
> 
> The person Joe Shuras is talking about receiving this description of combination three from is the same person who states that (to paraphrase pretty closely) with 7 forms and 22 combinations and some imagination you could have thousands of techniques. You just have to practice the basics and apply them.


 
Well, I think that's a stretch. When yopu break down the moves, they look totally different to me. If the original #3 was a two man defense, then it is not the same as the #3 that has been taught since Villari started his thing.



Matt said:


> At the USSD you went to for a while. It's a variation that we teach in our school.


 
Yes, but what they taught at the school I went to is the same as what is found on Villari's dvds and Mattera's tapes also. So if you're doing something different than that, I would say that it's not standard SKK. Once you start saying things like, "Well, if you change this to a one man defense, and re-arrange the techniques involved, then it starts to look like Kajukenbo." You've already conceded that it's not the same thing. That would be like me saying, "Well, if you take that Shotokan one-step sparring drill where the Uke punches the guy to the chest and change it to a right cross to the face, make that outside forarm block into a circular block with a follow-up eye rake and added a roundhouse kick to the solar plexus with a cross and cover, it's be the same as Kajukenbo."





Matt said:


> Yet they do look like SKK based on what I've seen SGM Pesare and / or his black belts do.


 
Fine. But that's not SKK according to how it's defined by Villari and Mattera. Does Pesare call his art SKK?




Matt said:


> How about the folks who were there before Villari. How about the folks who were there before Nick Cerio created Nick Cerio's Kenpo . They seem to describe something that overlaps pretty well.
> 
> Again, I'm not trying to say that "Kajukenbo is Shaolin Kempo". What we who keep trying to draw a connection are trying to do is to set up a historical provenance.


 
Historically there is a link. Gascon was Leoning's student. Pesare was Gascon's student. Cerio was Pesare's student and Villari was Cerio's student. The link is there in that sense. However, given the extrememly limited amount of material (10 combinations and 4 forms) that Pesare got from Gascon, and given that even those forms and combinations weren't strictly Kajukenbo. And given how many things have been added over the years and changed etc., it's not good to call it the same thing. In fact, it's misleading to say that SKK is 4th generation Kajukenbo. We all believed that once before the internet and video told the tale, but it should be put to rest IMO. When trying to be historically accurate, one should admit these things. In Kajukenbo no one says, "It's second generation Danzan Ryu Jiu Jiutsu" merely because one of the Founders was a black belt in that art. We acknowledge the contributions from that art that went in, but we don't try to claim it's the same thing. 

I'll admit that it's a pet peeve of mine having gone to brown belt in SKK and then thinking I'd only have to make some minor adjustments when going to Kajukenbo only to find a very different martial art from what I'd been studying.



Matt said:


> SKK shares some of the same DNA as Kajukenbo from a technical and strategic standpoint. They have become separate species. They still share a common ancestry.


 
I think SKK has more in common with TKD and Kyokushinkai than it does with Kajukenbo. Pesare studied TKD longer, put in forms from those arts and used those style of attacks as the basis for his Combinations. Heck, he even used to call his art Kempo Taekwondo in his old adds. Given that, to me SKK is more like a distant cousin of Kajukenbo than it is a direct descendant.


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## Gufbal1982 (Jan 15, 2007)

Those tapes of when Master Black was a 4th were made at the old headquarters, which was the old Lake Forest Dojo, which has been moved since those tapes were made.  

let's move on to 7, shall we?  I was originally taught 7 with an step out, sideblade kick to the ribs, cross out and go on guard.  If you go with this way, you can see a little TKD influence.  However, from what I was taught at 2nd dan with Villari, you add a backfist to it after the kick.  Gives it a different flavor...any thoughts?


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## Danjo (Jan 16, 2007)

Gufbal1982 said:


> Those tapes of when Master Black was a 4th were made at the old headquarters, which was the old Lake Forest Dojo, which has been moved since those tapes were made.
> 
> let's move on to 7, shall we? I was originally taught 7 with an step out, sideblade kick to the ribs, cross out and go on guard. If you go with this way, you can see a little TKD influence. However, from what I was taught at 2nd dan with Villari, you add a backfist to it after the kick. Gives it a different flavor...any thoughts?


 
I like 7 because it introduces one to angles. I also like the short ribs as a target. The back fist is alright as a followup, however, you could add a lot of adlibs in there after that initial kick.


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## 14 Kempo (Jan 16, 2007)

Referring to #7 on the street, for most people, I would vote for the knee as a target for the kick along with a #1 block, open or closed, as a guard. Most men can take much more in the ribs, than they can the knee at that angle. But, if it must be ribs, then the floating, or short ribs would be the target. Any higher will not have much affect on a male, you're up into the muscle. For most, my teachings are step aside, kick the knee and run for it. By the time the attacker figures out whether or not he is hurt, you'll probably be 30 to 40 yards away, most likely safe unless they have a gun. Just my opinion.

Also, this technique done in a slightly more advanced way, can take advantage of a left step outward using either a #1 open hand block and grab the wrist or a #1 iron fortress with dragon trap and hold them steady for the kick, again either taking the knee out or the ribs, both are quite effective.


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## LawDog (Jan 16, 2007)

Old #7
This used a side step with a cross palm / knife hand block followed by a side blade kick to the floating ribs,
Two types of side blade kicks were applied,
1) Side roundhouse blade,
2) Side thrusting blade.
One is used for the softer areas and the other is used for heavy damage. One is faster to the point of impact than the other but has less power. All of the chambers for both kicks must be used and properly timed to make both of these kicks work as intended.


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## RevIV (Jan 17, 2007)

Danjo,
 You had a crappy experience in SKK.. that sucks.. let it go.  Is your new art stagnant?  SKK def. is not.  If you had a good teacher or stayed long enough you would of found out that SKK is all about interpretations.  Ever heard of the 12 rings?  Combo 3 done with good basics def. has a chamber after the groin strike.  Most of the arts that GM Pesare has black belts in where also influences in Kaju correct?  so how could there not be some common thread?

Okay meatwad lets do this.  if we were to group certain combos we might be able to see where they are from or what the add ons are.
combos - 6,7,8,9,12,14 kicking.  
6 front - 7 side kick
8 - front then a kempo roundhouse (ball roundhouse)
9- same with side thrust after.  
12 - combo 6 with a spin kick.
14 - scissor kick   all of these seem to be pretty TKD to me.  But thats to simple since everyone has a front ball kick - 
19 - basic 6 with a judo like throw and some elbows before the throw.
16 - kicking with a trap (i do this soley off of a right lapel grab now) looks to be some Ju Jitsu in there after the kick with the wrist lock arm bar take down and elbow snap.
combo 4 which i was told was created by Prof. Walter Godin.  

combo 5 -  this one is going to get you.. I found Combo 5 on a old Lima Lama tape that i have.  But it was done the advanced way with the chicken wrist, knife hand trap(simo. up and down motion) it was a defense off of a front kick, then you do your back punch to face- take out the back leg with either a side kick or shuffle in snapping the Knee with a hyper extension

15 - seems more Kung-fu to me
13 - all Villari
11 - Def. Kempo. the ending when you grab the leg and flip them over for the hip dislocation was done by the Late David German all the time.
well theres some of my two cents.
In Peace
Jesse


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## SK101 (Jan 17, 2007)

Gufbal1982 said:


> I think I see where Meatwad is leading with this thread.  I don't think he/she wants to know what GrandMaster or from what system they got taught from.  I think that Meatwad is asking how many different styles can be seen in the combinations/dm's/kempos can be represented.  In other words, in your humble opinion, what style influenced those particular masters to create specific combinations?  Let's take for instance, um, I don't know...like 12.  It could have come from Tae Kwon Do, seeing that it's timing their movement with a front kick, followed by a spinning back kick.  I'm hoping this is what meatwad means...because if it is, this thread can get really interesting then.



I am no expert on Tae Kwon Do, but what I know of it they usually don't teach the back kick. Instead it is a back side kick. Not to mention the large hand movements for blocking. The DM has 2 kicks in it granted, but the only DMs wiht heavy quantities of kick compared to hand strikes are 
6-9,11-12,14,16, 28, 30, 32. Maybe 22 & 27. If you count the last two thats 13 out of 45.


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## Danjo (Jan 17, 2007)

RevIV said:


> Danjo,
> You had a crappy experience in SKK.. that sucks.. let it go. Is your new art stagnant? SKK def. is not. If you had a good teacher or stayed long enough you would of found out that SKK is all about interpretations. Ever heard of the 12 rings? Combo 3 done with good basics def. has a chamber after the groin strike. Most of the arts that GM Pesare has black belts in where also influences in Kaju correct? so how could there not be some common thread?


 
I had a crappy experience? Only with the organization. 

My opinions about SKK's effectiveness are derived from what I have seen from the people I trained with, the head high ranking instructors and the various videos from Villari and Mattera. That I note that it is not the same as Kajukenbo is merely pointing out a fact, not bashing the style.

The problem that I have with SKK as a style are the same one's I have with Shotokan or other martial arts that utilize classical karate as a base. Can they be effective? Yes. Do you have to "Interpret" everything and change it in order to make it effective? Yes. When a system at its base has to be modified in order to make it work then it lacks effeciency IMO. Why learn ANY techniques off of a Karate forward punch? Why waste the time? Who punches like that in the street, bar, alley, school-yard etc. ? No one I've ever seen. So why train for that? At least with Shotokan etc. they are trying to preserve a classical art and want to teach it as it used to be taught for reasons that have nothing to do with practicality. What is the excuse with SKK? Why not throw out those unrealistic defenses and come up with some that are designed to counter _realistic attacks_?

Oh I know you'll tell me that _your_ school does this after they have spent however long teaching _unrealistic_ defenses to their students etc., but why spend any time at all on that stuff? It's like someone's saying, "Well, first we're going to teach you the wrong way to do this, THEN we'll teach you how to make this stuff work in real life by changing it all around." or "It's the _concepts_ tht are important, not the individual techniques." Well, it would help IMO if the actual techniques aligned with the concepts themselves. Outdated attack scenarios and the defenses designed to counter them are the bane of all serious martial artists.  I know they're in there because of Pesare's background etc., but I think that it is why people like Cerio left that model and changed what he was doing so drastically from the stuff he had originally taught to Villari. These are purely my observations based on comparison. Now, if there are SKK people tht think outside the box, fine. But one has to ask oneself the purpose of having the box in the first place. SKK is not alone in this problem by any means as I've pointed out, but you need to understand that I'm not some 20 year-old with a bad experience making these observations.


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## marlon (Jan 17, 2007)

Mr.Bishop
when teaching kajukenbo do your techniques ever need to be modified based on body mass and body type of the individual learning or does all kajukenbo techniques work for everyone as the text book version?  When teaching how do you ensure fundemental basics are used properly in a technique, i.e. what are the teaching methods used to ensure proper basics are used during a technique?

Respectfully,
marlon


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## Danjo (Jan 17, 2007)

marlon said:


> Mr.Bishop
> when teaching kajukenbo do your techniques ever need to be modified based on body mass and body type of the individual learning or does all kajukenbo techniques work for everyone as the text book version? When teaching how do you ensure fundemental basics are used properly in a technique, i.e. what are the teaching methods used to ensure proper basics are used during a technique?
> 
> Respectfully,
> marlon


 
Well John Bishop can answer this for himself better than I can, but I can start. Yes, the techniques will need to be modified according to the body type of the individual doing them to an extent, but not much. We drill by doing a particular technique against the entire class one after the other as quickly as they can attack us. The attacks are not unrealistic in the first place, however. In other words, we don't learn to defend against a karate style attack that no one will really use. We have may have to modify something due to size descrepancy, but not attack scenario.


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## RevIV (Jan 17, 2007)

"Oh I know you'll tell me that _your_ school does this after they have spent however long teaching _unrealistic_ defenses to their students etc., but why spend any time at all on that stuff? It's like someone's saying, "Well, first we're going to teach you the wrong way to do this, THEN we'll teach you how to make this stuff work in real life by changing it all around." or "It's the _concepts_ tht are important, not the individual techniques." Well, it would help IMO if the actual techniques aligned with the concepts themselves. Outdated attack scenarios and the defenses designed to counter them are the bane of all serious martial artists. I know they're in there because of Pesare's background etc., but I think that it is why people like Cerio left that model and changed what he was doing so drastically from the stuff he had originally taught to Villari. These are purely my observations based on comparison. Now, if there are SKK people tht think outside the box, fine. But one has to ask oneself the purpose of having the box in the first place. SKK is not alone in this problem by any means as I've pointed out, but you need to understand that I'm not some 20 year-old with a bad experience making these observations." Qoute from Danjo

Danjo, I have heard this exact thing from you before.  i do not teach all the combos off of a right straight punch like my predecessors. I hope i do not catch to much slack from my fellow SKK'ers.  I am not a 20 year old but i am a new generation of teachers coming from the SKK lineage.  I am very young compared to others but i do have experience, almost 20 years in Kempo with roughly 20 hours a week of teaching and training since i was 14 non stop, then more hours when i opened full time 7 years ago.  I have taken the Combo's and tried not to alter the actual move just the attack.  This does not mean i teach with a straight punch then show the students how clever i am, i teach them this way from the start.  
Combo 1 -  is a defense off of a RT front kick, RT hook, LT hook, the only difference in the technique is the timing of the tiger rake to the face, it comes the same time as the block to the RT hook and the chicken wrist is used for the block of the LT hook.
Combo 2 - done off of a LT jab/or hook (added a defelting block from my gaurd) and then a RT cross punch with the attackers RT leg back.
still core SKK - just taught slightly differently.  I could go on with the different attacks through the combos but i do not want to bore you. NOT all SKK people stay in the mold. But we are SKK.
In Peace,
Jesse


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## Danjo (Jan 17, 2007)

RevIV said:


> "Oh I know you'll tell me that _your_ school does this after they have spent however long teaching _unrealistic_ defenses to their students etc., but why spend any time at all on that stuff? It's like someone's saying, "Well, first we're going to teach you the wrong way to do this, THEN we'll teach you how to make this stuff work in real life by changing it all around." or "It's the _concepts_ tht are important, not the individual techniques." Well, it would help IMO if the actual techniques aligned with the concepts themselves. Outdated attack scenarios and the defenses designed to counter them are the bane of all serious martial artists. I know they're in there because of Pesare's background etc., but I think that it is why people like Cerio left that model and changed what he was doing so drastically from the stuff he had originally taught to Villari. These are purely my observations based on comparison. Now, if there are SKK people tht think outside the box, fine. But one has to ask oneself the purpose of having the box in the first place. SKK is not alone in this problem by any means as I've pointed out, but you need to understand that I'm not some 20 year-old with a bad experience making these observations." Qoute from Danjo
> 
> Danjo, I have heard this exact thing from you before. i do not teach all the combos off of a right straight punch like my predecessors. I hope i do not catch to much slack from my fellow SKK'ers. I am not a 20 year old but i am a new generation of teachers coming from the SKK lineage. I am very young compared to others but i do have experience, almost 20 years in Kempo with roughly 20 hours a week of teaching and training since i was 14 non stop, then more hours when i opened full time 7 years ago. I have taken the Combo's and tried not to alter the actual move just the attack. This does not mean i teach with a straight punch then show the students how clever i am, i teach them this way from the start.
> Combo 1 - is a defense off of a RT front kick, RT hook, LT hook, the only difference in the technique is the timing of the tiger rake to the face, it comes the same time as the block to the RT hook and the chicken wrist is used for the block of the LT hook.
> ...


 
Okay Jesse. That's cool, but you have to acknowledge that you're not teaching what most SKK schools are teaching then. That makes you the exception in the SKK world, not the rule.

When you and people like Matt Barnes go out and modify what you teach based on outside input and personal innovation, you're not following the formula. I applaud you for wht you're doing, but you're basically reaffirming what I was saying.


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## John Bishop (Jan 17, 2007)

marlon said:


> Mr.Bishop
> when teaching kajukenbo do your techniques ever need to be modified based on body mass and body type of the individual learning or does all kajukenbo techniques work for everyone as the text book version?



I may not be understanding how you use the term "modified".  If your saying, does a technique in a combination have to be changed to make it work for some people, I would say no.  We do have some variations that women and children practice though.
Like Danjo said, we practice techniques in the "monkey" line.  One person does the same technique against everyone in the line.  That way they learn how to apply the technique against attackers that may be bigger or smaller, faster or slower, weaker or stronger.  The technique dosen't change, the application does. In other words, if a attacker has more or less reach then me, or has more or less strength then me, I would have to change the angle or depth of my movement into him.  But the strike, kick, lock, or throw would not change. 
I won't say that all Kajukenbo techniques work.  But I will say that they all work for somebody.  In other words, I don't expect every student to be able to do every technique great.  I do expect everyone to be proficient at them, and eventually be able to explain and teach them.
Now, in referance to my comment; "But I will say that they all work for somebody".  As a example, there are 21 punch counters and 26 Alphabet techniques used for defenses against various punching attacks.  I expect that one student will find a handfull of these techniques that fit their body and abilities, and do them very well.  And other students will find a handfull that they are very good at.  But they won't be the same techniques for each student.  So all the techniques are useful to somebody.  



marlon said:


> When teaching how do you ensure fundemental basics are used properly in a technique, i.e. what are the teaching methods used to ensure proper basics are used during a technique?
> Respectfully,
> marlon



Techniques can be adapted without changing the "fundamental Basics" (stance, hip rotation, kick, strike, etc).  Adjusting the angle or depth of attack, dosen't change the technique.  
I can't tell someone who's 6' 2" that he has to step in at the same angle as someone who's 5' 8" when he does a kick or strike.  It's not going to work since they have a differant reach with their kicks or strikes.  If the shorter person has to step in to 10:00 for his kick.  And the taller person has to step in to 9:00 for his kick because his leg is longer, it's still the same combination, and the basic technique (kick) is the same.


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## RevIV (Jan 17, 2007)

Danjo said:


> Okay Jesse. That's cool, but you have to acknowledge that you're not teaching what most SKK schools are teaching then. That makes you the exception in the SKK world, not the rule.
> 
> When you and people like Matt Barnes go out and modify what you teach based on outside input and personal innovation, you're not following the formula. I applaud you for wht you're doing, but you're basically reaffirming what I was saying.


 
Ok acknowledged and excepted so thank you.  This whole modify word does not settle well though.  I have always taught the way i teach now, i feel that i am just a little smarter through life experiences.  there has always been what i am teaching, i am just starting with it instead of progressing the student to that point.  I figure if i can teach the students what i have figured out through the years now,  they will be much better than i could ever hope to be.  -- this hurts, but from your posts i guess i am reaffirming what you are saying but i know the hearts of a lot of the people on this forum and they are doing what you think is right, its just a different path for the same outcome.
In Peace
Jesse


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## marlon (Jan 18, 2007)

John Bishop said:


> I may not be understanding how you use the term "modified". If your saying, does a technique in a combination have to be changed to make it work for some people, I would say no. We do have some variations that women and children practice though.
> Like Danjo said, we practice techniques in the "monkey" line. One person does the same technique against everyone in the line. That way they learn how to apply the technique against attackers that may be bigger or smaller, faster or slower, weaker or stronger. The technique dosen't change, the application does. In other words, if a attacker has more or less reach then me, or has more or less strength then me, I would have to change the angle or depth of my movement into him. But the strike, kick, lock, or throw would not change.
> I won't say that all Kajukenbo techniques work. But I will say that they all work for somebody. In other words, I don't expect every student to be able to do every technique great. I do expect everyone to be proficient at them, and eventually be able to explain and teach them.
> Now, in referance to my comment; "But I will say that they all work for somebody". As a example, there are 21 punch counters and 26 Alphabet techniques used for defenses against various punching attacks. I expect that one student will find a handfull of these techniques that fit their body and abilities, and do them very well. And other students will find a handfull that they are very good at. But they won't be the same techniques for each student. So all the techniques are useful to somebody.
> ...


 

Thank you Mr. Bishop.  then it appears we are doing the same thing and understanding our techniques strengths and limitations the same way., We also include the `monkey line`although i never had a name for it.  We just lined up and went at it.   and my choice of the word `modify`was a poor selection.  BTW this is also the way i was taught from the beginning although we did not and do not have special techniques for women and children and have them adapt as you say.

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## marlon (Jan 18, 2007)

Danjo said:


> Okay Jesse. That's cool, but you have to acknowledge that you're not teaching what most SKK schools are teaching then. That makes you the exception in the SKK world, not the rule.
> 
> When you and people like Matt Barnes go out and modify what you teach based on outside input and personal innovation, you're not following the formula. I applaud you for wht you're doing, but you're basically reaffirming what I was saying.


 
Perhaps, it is that i am lucky  but Prof.I, Jesse, Chris, Matt, Kimo, Elizabeth Gilberg, Danny Masson have been the rule for my skk experience and those who do differently the exception.  I am grateful for them and skk.  There are bad school in every system...and good ones need to get a higher porofile as it serves the whole community better to do so.

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## Gufbal1982 (Jan 20, 2007)

SK101 said:


> I am no expert on Tae Kwon Do, but what I know of it they usually don't teach the back kick. Instead it is a back side kick. Not to mention the large hand movements for blocking. The DM has 2 kicks in it granted, but the only DMs wiht heavy quantities of kick compared to hand strikes are
> 6-9,11-12,14,16, 28, 30, 32. Maybe 22 & 27. If you count the last two thats 13 out of 45.



Ok sk101...it seems like all you want to do is troll me.  You have been trying to pick on my every word for a little while now. I agreed with you...was nice to you but you have mistaken my kindness for weakness.  Whatever floats your boat.  If you could have read my post all the way thru you would have seen I said could be...that doesn't speak in absolutes.  All I wanted to see was a good discussion of minds coming together.  This thread turned into an attack on danjo's skk training, which I find offensive.  I did my best to give him a good experience in the art...I do that with all my students.  Danjo choose to study with me...I didn't force him to sign anything.  He followed me when I got transferred to a different location.  That says a lot.  Anyway, can we go back to the discussion topic now?  I've said my peace.  

Number 3:

This one has a lot of potential.  First is the step,duck, check with the left and punch with the right.  I go to the bladder.  I think this first movement has elements of some boxing footwork and handwork. the stepping outside the strike, the small bob and weave of the head and then the body blow.  Next part...grabbing the shoulder pulling into a back punch to the temple as you grab the opposite shoulder to use their leverage against them.  This represents to me the aikido principle of using the opponents energy against them.  Finally I have then ending with a thrust punch to the groin and a cross hand shuto to the throat.  These are my opinions and thoughts.  Any one like to change or add anything?  Feel free to do so without a personal attack.


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## shaolin ninja 4 (Jan 20, 2007)

Hey Gufball,
Does Mattera have all 108 combos?


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## Gufbal1982 (Jan 20, 2007)

shaolin ninja 4 said:


> Hey Gufball,
> Does Mattera have all 108 combos?



From what I understand, no.


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## Danjo (Jan 20, 2007)

Gufbal1982 said:


> This thread turned into an attack on danjo's skk training, which I find offensive. I did my best to give him a good experience in the art...I do that with all my students. Danjo choose to study with me...I didn't force him to sign anything. He followed me when I got transferred to a different location. That says a lot. Anyway, can we go back to the discussion topic now? I've said my peace.


 
Michelle was one of the better instructors in the USSD IMO. She was enthusiastic, she was open-minded, and she was responsive to her students. All of these qualities got her in trouble while she was there for various reasons. Her enthusiasm threatened the ego of the studio owner where I first met her. Michelle typically quadrupled the enrollment of a studio when she went there within 6 months. Her open-mindedness got her in trouble because she was honest about where the system came from (i.e., Villari) and that didn't sit well with those toeing the party line. Her responsiveness to her student's got her in trouble because she was willing to let those of us that wanted to train a lot harder than the headquarters wanted us to.

When she left Placentia to go to Seal Beach, several of us followed her there. That got her in deep doo doo because the HQ thought she'd violated franchise agreements and stole us from Placentia. It wasn't true, but no one believed us when we said we went on our own. 

In other words, she was real in a world where that was not encouraged and they treated her badly from what I personally saw. When she quit ( I would say was driven out), so did most of us that were left.

Whatever my opinions are of SKK as a martial art, they have nothing to do with Michelle's qualities as an instructor in the USSD. My opinions of SKK are derived from what I have seen since then and compared to it. It's my opinion and everyone else is entitled to their's also.


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## LawDog (Jan 21, 2007)

What happened to GufBal1982 happens to many energetic instructors. An organization should give the highly positive instructor a "pat on the back" for being self motivated. If it does good for the art and school then it is not a bad thing.
Before I owned my own school I taught at my instructors school. I use to run my group classes for a duration of two - two and a half hours. The other instructors complained to the school owner about it. My response to the school owner was always, my class is always standing room only, their happy and your making money.
My hats off to the self motivated instructors, can't get enough of them.
This is just my own view point.


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## 14 Kempo (Jan 21, 2007)

LawDog said:


> What happened to GufBal1982 happens to many energetic instructors. An organization should give the highly positive instructor a "pat on the back" for being self motivated. If it does good for the art and school then it is not a bad thing.
> Before I owned my own school I taught at my instructors school. I use to run my group classes for a duration of two - two and a half hours. The other instructors complained to the school owner about it. My response to the school owner was always, my class is always standing room only, their happy and your making money.
> My hats off to the self motivated instructors, can't get enough of them.
> This is just my own view point.


 
This and previous statements are true, I will agree with them, however, I also want to expose the fact that although it is sad that people have had bad experiences with certain organizations, it is not fair to condemn all others that are having a positive experience. All large organizations have good and bad, it is unfortunate, but factual. 

Personally I haven't had those experiences and I hope I never do. But if by chance I do, I hope I will be mature enough to let it go and move on, and not live for years wasting energy on the negative. How about taking the experience to the positive? It seemingly is motivating quite a few people to further thier training, to move into an art, or arts, that are a better fit for them. If they hadn't had that previous experience, where would they be today? I would say the same place.

Again, I state, I don't believe it is SKK that has issues, the art is a good art. It is the instruction and business practices of some that is causing some people to stereotype the art. I don't deny things have happened beyond some wrongful business practices, I just haven't seen them with my own eyes ... I will even admit that maybe I've just been lucky. I hope my luck holds up!


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## Matt (Jan 22, 2007)

Danjo said:


> I think SKK has more in common with TKD and Kyokushinkai than it does with Kajukenbo. Pesare studied TKD longer, put in forms from those arts and used those style of attacks as the basis for his Combinations. Heck, he even used to call his art Kempo Taekwondo in his old adds. Given that, to me SKK is more like a distant cousin of Kajukenbo than it is a direct descendant.



Funny (well, at least to me) story: This is how I know SKK does not resemble TKD very much. My friend Geoff, who came down to work where I do from VT just a couple months shy of his black belt test  in TKD wanted a place to work out and some help reviewing, so he could go back and test. All the local TKD schools were ATA and he was ITF, so there was no suitable TKD school for his purposes available. I made our school available on the off hours, and 'coached' him for  the last couple months. I gained a working knowledge of the forms and techniques he had, and he got feedback and a person to practice on. When he took his test he passed, but he sure got a ration of 'sunshine' when it came to the self defense portion of his test. Let's just say that his instructors 'noticed a little difference'. He ended up joining our school for a while until he went off to graduate school. 

Matt


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## Gufbal1982 (Jan 23, 2007)

Danjo said:


> Michelle was one of the better instructors in the USSD IMO. She was enthusiastic, she was open-minded, and she was responsive to her students. All of these qualities got her in trouble while she was there for various reasons. Her enthusiasm threatened the ego of the studio owner where I first met her. Michelle typically quadrupled the enrollment of a studio when she went there within 6 months. Her open-mindedness got her in trouble because she was honest about where the system came from (i.e., Villari) and that didn't sit well with those toeing the party line. Her responsiveness to her student's got her in trouble because she was willing to let those of us that wanted to train a lot harder than the headquarters wanted us to.
> 
> When she left Placentia to go to Seal Beach, several of us followed her there. That got her in deep doo doo because the HQ thought she'd violated franchise agreements and stole us from Placentia. It wasn't true, but no one believed us when we said we went on our own.
> 
> ...


 
I would agree with the driven out part...but that's a whole other story!  I did get in a lot of trouble now that I think about it...lol.  I was in trouble like every single day almost.  I didn't care though.  I ran those schools the best I could.  I never got tired of teaching...only negativity.  ANYWAY...let's talk about the different martial arts styles represented in the techniques again...shall we?

How does combination/DM 5 sound?


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## DavidCC (Jan 24, 2007)

Gufbal1982 said:


> I would agree with the driven out part...but that's a whole other story! I did get in a lot of trouble now that I think about it...lol. I was in trouble like every single day almost. I didn't care though. I ran those schools the best I could. I never got tired of teaching...only negativity. ANYWAY...let's talk about the different martial arts styles represented in the techniques again...shall we?
> 
> How does combination/DM 5 sound?


 
How many of the combos use lessons/movements/principles from the Pinan series?


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## marlon (Jan 24, 2007)

DavidCC said:


> How many of the combos use lessons/movements/principles from the Pinan series?



combo three is right there at the beginning of 5 pinan

marlon


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## Gufbal1982 (Jan 24, 2007)

DavidCC said:


> How many of the combos use lessons/movements/principles from the Pinan series?


 
That's a really good question...I know there are some in the kata's for sure, like 26 is in kata 3 and kata 6...kata 6 also has 19 and 4 in it.  I gotta examine my pinans now!


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## RevIV (Jan 25, 2007)

Gufbal1982 said:


> That's a really good question...I know there are some in the kata's for sure, like 26 is in kata 3 and kata 6...kata 6 also has 19 and 4 in it. I gotta examine my pinans now!


 
good luck


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## DavidCC (Jan 25, 2007)

marlon said:


> combo three is right there at the beginning of 5 pinan
> 
> marlon


 
That is the next form I will learn 



> That's a really good question...I know there are some in the kata's for sure, like 26 is in kata 3 and kata 6...kata 6 also has 19 and 4 in it. I gotta examine my pinans now!


 
that is the opposite of what I asked


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## shaolin ninja 4 (Jan 25, 2007)

Hey David,
Do you guys teach kata 6?
Your head master left before black so I was just curious not bashing.


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## Gufbal1982 (Jan 25, 2007)

DavidCC said:


> That is the next form I will learn
> 
> 
> 
> that is the opposite of what I asked


 
I realize that...if you read what I completely said was I have to examine my pinans next.


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## Matt (Jan 26, 2007)

DavidCC said:


> How many of the combos use lessons/movements/principles from the Pinan series?



Not very many contain identical movements. The combos were devised (at least the pre-black belt ones) for the most part before the pinans were added into the system. The combos that were created after the pinans were introduced tend to be fancier (for lack of a better word) than the movement style consistent within the pinans. 

The pinans were imported to provide structure to fundamental movements moreso than to contain techniques. Essentially some of the principles were used, but at a really granular level relating to quality of movement, power generation and so on. 

Matt


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## DavidCC (Jan 29, 2007)

shaolin ninja 4 said:


> Hey David,
> Do you guys teach kata 6?
> Your head master left before black so I was just curious not bashing.


 
No, we use the Goju kata after pinan 5 & kata 5: we go to Seisan, suparunpei, etc.


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## DavidCC (Jan 29, 2007)

Matt said:


> Not very many contain identical movements. The combos were devised (at least the pre-black belt ones) for the most part before the pinans were added into the system. The combos that were created after the pinans were introduced tend to be fancier (for lack of a better word) than the movement style consistent within the pinans.
> 
> The pinans were imported to provide structure to fundamental movements moreso than to contain techniques. Essentially some of the principles were used, but at a really granular level relating to quality of movement, power generation and so on.
> 
> Matt


 
That's kindof what I thought... I have mixed feelings on these: karate bolted-on to the kempo system, or relevant to the system as a whole...


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## Matt (Jan 29, 2007)

DavidCC said:


> That's kindof what I thought... I have mixed feelings on these: karate bolted-on to the kempo system, or relevant to the system as a whole...



I have mixed feelings on them as well. However, they are a recurring theme in Kempo history. The original Kempo, was Karate Kempo. They were essentially one and the same (See Motobu's book, _Kenpo Gaisetsu_ or Mutsu's _Karate Kenpo_). Mitose's Kempo? Contained only naihanchi. John Chow-Hoon's apparently contained forms like taikyoku shodan with variations. Chow/Chun Goshinjutsu Chinese Kempo also contains pinan type forms. Kajukenbo? Naihanchi again, modified. They come in and out. I find that the pinans and especially other karate forms have taught me important concepts, but it was more like cross-training. I could then find them or apply them in the kempo forms I had. Will my students not have to retrace my steps? Perhaps eventually. 

Matt


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## RevIV (Jan 29, 2007)

Matt said:


> I have mixed feelings on them as well. However, they are a recurring theme in Kempo history. The original Kempo, was Karate Kempo. They were essentially one and the same (See Motobu's book, _Kenpo Gaisetsu_ or Mutsu's _Karate Kenpo_). Mitose's Kempo? Contained only naihanchi. John Chow-Hoon's apparently contained forms like taikyoku shodan with variations. Chow/Chun Goshinjutsu Chinese Kempo also contains pinan type forms. Kajukenbo? Naihanchi again, modified. They come in and out. I find that the pinans and especially other karate forms have taught me important concepts, but it was more like cross-training. I could then find them or apply them in the kempo forms I had. Will my students not have to retrace my steps? Perhaps eventually.
> 
> Matt


 
I like the last sentence in this paragraph, well the last 2 i guess.  So, when will they be dropped.?
Jesse


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## 14 Kempo (Jan 30, 2007)

Matt said:


> I have mixed feelings on them as well. However, they are a recurring theme in Kempo history. The original Kempo, was Karate Kempo. They were essentially one and the same (See Motobu's book, _Kenpo Gaisetsu_ or Mutsu's _Karate Kenpo_). Mitose's Kempo? Contained only naihanchi. John Chow-Hoon's apparently contained forms like taikyoku shodan with variations. Chow/Chun Goshinjutsu Chinese Kempo also contains pinan type forms. Kajukenbo? Naihanchi again, modified. They come in and out. I find that the pinans and especially other karate forms have taught me important concepts, but it was more like cross-training. I could then find them or apply them in the kempo forms I had. Will my students not have to retrace my steps? Perhaps eventually.
> 
> Matt


 
Maybe it's just my studio, but where I train in SKK the pinans are a bit softer.

Pinan #1 [Tiger], very karate-like, straight forward, powerful, always pressing.
Pinan #2 [Dragon], still very karate-like, added in the rising and falling into the blocks and strikes. 
Pinan #3 [Crane], becomes softer and more fluid in its movements. Striking from a distance.
Pinan #4 [Leopard], very fluid, striking from a distance, minimized movements.
Pinan #5 [Snake], low stances, drawing the opponent into very fast, accurate strikes.

Yes, I have seen the Shotokan Heian series. The movements are very similar, but in my SKK style they are much softer and more fluid.


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## Matt (Jan 30, 2007)

RevIV said:


> I like the last sentence in this paragraph, well the last 2 i guess.  So, when will they be dropped.?
> Jesse




When it's my roof?:rules: 

Kidding!:angel: 

But seriously, I can see a day when I don't teach them, but then a lot of changes will come with that day. You'll know it when you see it. 

Matt


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## Gufbal1982 (Jan 31, 2007)

You know, I find it interesting how on other threads when it's off topic people get moderated on, but on this thread no one is on topic and it doesn't happen.  Why is that?


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## Lisa (Jan 31, 2007)

Gufbal1982 said:


> You know, I find it interesting how on other threads when it's off topic people get moderated on, but on this thread no one is on topic and it doesn't happen.  Why is that?



Well, with thousands of posts per day, it is hard for the moderating staff to keep up with all the threads.  We rely heavily on our membership to report threads that are turning nasty, are in the wrong forum and are going off topic.  I wasn't aware that this was happening with this thread until someone reported your post.

So, if you feel that is happening please feel free to report the post/thread and bring it to our attention.  You can do so by clicking on the little red and white triangle with the "!" located in it.  Simply post the reason you think the thread is going awry and we will be happy to look into it for you.

I hope I sufficiently answered your question, and on that note:

*ATTENTION ALL MEMBERS:

Please return to the original topic of this thread.

Lisa Deneka
MartialTalk Super Moderator*


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## Gufbal1982 (Feb 9, 2007)

Can we try the thread topic again?  Combination 3:

I like the beginning footwork of 3.  It's very reminescent of boxing...stepping out to the angle and doing a body blow.  Anyone have any thoughts?


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## Joe Shuras (Feb 14, 2007)

Jesse wrote: "15 - seems more Kung-fu to me
13 - all Villari
11 - Def. Kempo. the ending when you grab the leg and flip them over for the hip dislocation was done by the Late David German all the time.

Hi Jesse, hope all is well with you and yours. #15 is one of the original KGS combs of SGM. Pesare's. You will see it demonstated (I believe by George Pesare himself in his 60's DVD but I'd have to check, I know it's on there though). I saw a Kajukenbo version back in the 80's, same begining but instead of re-directing to the groin, you circle your right hand around the attacker's right wrist bringing your right hand behind you to your right kidney as your left coils around the neck into a ridge hand to the throat, bending him back and following with a right knee to his kidney area. By the way, I also seen this armlock/ridge hand to throat in one of my Wah Lum Kung Fu forms ("Straight Form") and just the armlock is also in Shou Tung Kwok. EPAK has a knife defense that is also similiar. I strongly suggest anyone truly interested in the history of Karazenpo and Shaolin Kempo Karate should really get DVD from SGM. Pesare. It's really great stuff.

#13 is actually not GM. Villari at all. I went over the 21 combinations of SGM. Pesare comparing them with the SKK ones I got in the 70's with GM. Marc Ayotte of George Pesare's Kempo/Kenpo Karate Institute a while ago and #13 was another original. It was done almost exactly the way I learned it from Mr. Villari, Mr. Fritz and Mr. Seavey back then except the application of dropping the loop around the neck was done slightly different. Other than that minor variation, it was the same.

#11 I'm a little fuzzy on as an original. I remember going over it with Marc but can't recall if it's an original. I'd have to check but I know it was handed down from Prof. Cerio to Gm. Villari. As a matter of fact, the takedown is one of Cerio's favorites and he included it in Circle of the Tiger. Circle of the Tiger, as we know, was inspired by KGS/SKK #1 kata (now called #1 pinan at Mr. Pesare's school) and Prof. Cerio replaced the ankle throw in it with the takedown from #11 when he reworked the form.

Jesse, I believe you mentioned the scissor kick as Tae Kwon Do. In the original #3 kata of George Pesare/Sonny Gascon it was actually a Kajukenbo switch kick which more than likely came from the Korean arts. In the #3 kata I learned from Mr. V's system, we would do a circular sweep then squat down feet together (ducking) facing 12 o'clock and jump up with the scissor kick (jump front ball w/ a back kick to an opponent behind you). There was way more juice on the front kick then the back kick though. Once while looking through a Tae Kwon Do book, I saw this exact technique (minus the opponet to the rear) as a defense against a Bo or long weapon. The attacker swings at the head, the defender drops down, the attacker then cross swings downward at the defender and the defender jumps over the bo and executes the jump from kick into the attacker. This is a little too 'theatrical' for me to teach as reality based self defense, lol, so I wouldn't but it's a good exercise in agility, timing and leg strength and looks nice in tournament competition.

I have also seen it reported widely on the forums that Fred Villari created all the combinations after 26. I have a problem with that one and here's why. Years ago, while studying under Prof. Cerio, I asked him. He told me as far as the numerical combinations went, he taught Fred V. around 35. Looking at these combinations myself I can believe this, I also recognize #39 very similar to one of Prof. Cerio's techniques in NCK (Spinning Sword) but using a knife hand instead of a backfist, etc., (concept was the same though.), so Mr. Cerio is in the ballpark on his recollection of this. Back in the 70's going into the next decade, at Mr. Villari's Black Belt workouts, he usually covered up to #39. I also noticed F.V. #40 is similiar to EPAK's Leaping Crane. 

KenpoJoe Rebelo once asked Ed Parker if he knew Fred Villari. He stated he never met the man. Again, I take issue with this. Perhaps, it's just because it was so long ago and Mr. Villari was not a big name to remember back in the later 60's. Fred V. started with Nick Cerio in 1967. Mr. Cerio told me he used to take Villari with him to the Ed Parker workouts when Cerio was the east coast director of the IKKA. Nick also told this to Craig Seavey and that Prof. Larry Garron of Framingham, Massachusetts also attended and confirmed this. I'm sure Mr. Villari picked up things from these workouts.

Also, Gm. Villari did tell me back in the 70's, it was 1978, that he had the 108 combinations back then and some 50 plus forms, I think 54(?) at this time, however, he decided to 'streamline' the system, to prevent overkill of curriculum, to 50 combinations and 21 forms. The forms were 1-5 pinan, Statue of the Crane, 1-6 Kata, Honsuki (Hansuki), Shou Tung Kwok (original spelling), Nenglis North & South, Swift Tigers, Invincible Wall, Five Dragons Facing the Four Winds, one basic Bo form and one basic Japanese sword form. We also had the 8 point, 10 point and Plum Tree Blocking systems. Later, after I left, he went back to the expanded curriculum as many other also did. "Joe"


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## 14 Kempo (Feb 14, 2007)

Very nice to see this post ... thanks Mr. Shuras


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## Joe Shuras (Feb 14, 2007)

Thank you, sir. Glad to help. I know first hand it can be very difficult researching martial arts with all the conflicting data out there. I try the best I can. - Joe


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## Hand Sword (Feb 14, 2007)

Welcome back!! You were seriously missed around here!


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## Joe Shuras (Feb 15, 2007)

Thanks, Mike, it's appreciated.


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## RevIV (Feb 15, 2007)

Thank you so much Joe,
That was a great read.  #13 was in the original and like you said had some Korean influence. and 15 was also in the original Combo's, but is it possible that it still could be a Kung Fu influence.  Stories read that GM Gascon trained with some kung fu masters in exchange for techniques.  Also where is this take down in circle of the tiger from combo 11?  Off the top of my head i can think of two take downs.  One being the sweep after the double tiger rakes and the other being the leg hock after the simo. back fist and back punch.  interesting though.  I have seen combination #40 done on a Lima Lama tape from the early 80's - combo 5 was also on this tape but for a defense of a kick.  It's good to see you back on the forums and time to go see if my dojo doors are frozen shut from yesterday ice capades.
Jesse


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## Joe Shuras (Feb 15, 2007)

Hi Jesse, thank you very much. I feel "#14" had the Korean influence and yes, #15 could very well have Chinese influence-agreed! The takedown I refer to in #11 is your left hand bar arms the throat area as you grab the left upper lapel area of the gi, (shirt or jacket on the street), your right hand grabs the pant material of the attacker's right leg to the side or rear of his knee. You now put pressure on the throat and pull the leg (push/pull). In Circle of the Tiger you also assist by leg hocking his right leg with your left while doing this push/pull takedown. True about Sonny Gascon, he and John Leoning did seek out Kung Fu techniques in San Francisco's Chinatown in those early years.-Joe


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## RevIV (Feb 15, 2007)

Ahhh,, ok,i know where you are talking about.  I never had it with a grab low with the right so my brain just was not synapsing yet.  we grabbed high on both.  But if you are grabbing the knee i def. see the resemblence.  The next move after putting him on the ground is the arm break, correct?  
Jesse


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## 14 Kempo (Feb 15, 2007)

I agree with the takedown being in the 'Circle of the Tiger' form as it is taught at USSD. The hands are reversed, left hand on the hip area, right hand taking the ankle in a push/pull scenario, a bit different, but the takedown is there.


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## Joe Shuras (Feb 15, 2007)

RevIV said:


> Ahhh,, ok,i know where you are talking about. I never had it with a grab low with the right so my brain just was not synapsing yet. we grabbed high on both. But if you are grabbing the knee i def. see the resemblence. The next move after putting him on the ground is the arm break, correct?
> Jesse


 
In Circle of the Tiger, the next move after the takedown is to rise in a natural stance and follow up with a subtle short kick to his body. In #11, when we drop him, his right leg is up in the air as we grab his ankle, we jump in with our right shin/knee into his groin and turn him over for the submission (right foot planted by his right kidney/lower back area and pulling back on the leg causing pressure in the lower back - Joe


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## Joe Shuras (Feb 15, 2007)

14 Kempo said:


> I agree with the takedown being in the 'Circle of the Tiger' form as it is taught at USSD. The hands are reversed, left hand on the hip area, right hand taking the ankle in a push/pull scenario, a bit different, but the takedown is there.


 
Right, same idea.....I didn't know USSD taught Circle of the Tiger - Joe


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## 14 Kempo (Feb 15, 2007)

Joe Shuras said:


> Right, same idea.....I didn't know USSD taught Circle of the Tiger - Joe


 
Well, hopefully we are talking about the same form. It is taught at Shodan as a requirement for Nidan.

Looks like the NCK version shown here ... 



 ... with minor changes, mostly in flow.


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## Joe Shuras (Feb 16, 2007)

14 Kempo, my home computer's down and I can't seem to pull up the video on the one I'm using now but it's probably the same form. Prof. Cerio told me this form was 'his baby', his favorite form, the nucleus of his system. I was with him once in Rhode Island when he performed it at a tournament and also did the application. In NCK it's given at Blue Belt level.

Circle of the Tiger used the basic concepts of KGS-SKK #1 kata for it's framework and built upon it form there. Circle has the kick punch, the high block/low block/punch, (vertical fist is favored over the horizontal fist in #1 kata), the side kicks are there but in different order, the right circle claw into left palm heel and kick, the double driving knife hands, the spear hand throat is a knife spear finger flick to the eye... He replaced the ankle throw with the takedown I described in a previous post. If your Circle starts off with facing 10 o'clock with a double block, front kick, slight shuffle into thrust punch to body, turn to 2 'oclock and repeat the sequence mirror image.....then it's the same form - Joe


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## Gufbal1982 (Feb 16, 2007)

Joe Shuras said:


> 14 Kempo, my home computer's down and I can't seem to pull up the video on the one I'm using now but it's probably the same form. Prof. Cerio told me this form was 'his baby', his favorite form, the nucleus of his system. I was with him once in Rhode Island when he performed it at a tournament and also did the application. In NCK it's given at Blue Belt level.
> 
> Circle of the Tiger used the basic concepts of KGS-SKK #1 kata for it's framework and built upon it form there. Circle has the kick punch, the high block/low block/punch, (vertical fist is favored over the horizontal fist in #1 kata), the side kicks are there but in different order, the right circle claw into left palm heel and kick, the double driving knife hands, the spear hand throat is a knife spear finger flick to the eye... He replaced the ankle throw with the takedown I described in a previous post. If your Circle starts off with facing 10 o'clock with a double block, front kick, slight shuffle into thrust punch to body, turn to 2 'oclock and repeat the sequence mirror image.....then it's the same form - Joe



It's the same form.  I got it from a NCK person before I got it from USSD.  The only difference is the tiger kick, which USSD claims is a rising blade kick


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## Joe Shuras (Feb 16, 2007)

Gufbal1982 said:


> It's the same form. I got it from a NCK person before I got it from USSD. The only difference is the tiger kick, which USSD claims is a rising blade kick


 
Nick Cerio used that kick in Circle of the Tiger once after the cross block/downward block/ & simultaneous outward block/punch and after the right downward circular claw and left palm heel. It's from Chinese kung fu. He called it a rising side kick. I really don't care for it and rather use a front ball kick - Joe


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## Gufbal1982 (Feb 16, 2007)

Joe Shuras said:


> Nick Cerio used that kick in Circle of the Tiger once after the cross block/downward block/ & simultaneous outward block/punch and after the right downward circular claw and left palm heel. It's from Chinese kung fu. He called it a rising side kick. I really don't care for it and rather use a front ball kick - Joe



There is a difference with his rising side kick and theirs.  I learned the Tiger kick has some sort of a chamber to it.  The USSD version does not have a chamber.  It just rises off the floor.  I personally prefer the side kick to the body positioning.


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## Joe Shuras (Feb 17, 2007)

The rising side kick Prof. Cerio taught me did not have a chamber either, came right off the floor also - Joe


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