# Cage Match: Wing Chun vs. Grappler



## Si-Je (Oct 9, 2008)

Novemember, fight is on!
Can't wait!  Just a try-out fight, promoter wants to see how WC fighter is in ring against experienced grappler and cage fighter.
Wish us luck!  
talk the talk, better walk the walk, so here we go.....


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## theletch1 (Oct 9, 2008)

Best of luck.  Let us know how it goes.


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## Journeyman (Oct 9, 2008)

Good luck.  Martial artists who are willing to step up have my respect win or lose.


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## Brian S (Oct 10, 2008)

My money says he won't be using WC if he wins,lol.


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## sgtmac_46 (Oct 10, 2008)

Brian S said:


> My money says he won't be using WC if he wins,lol.


 Uhm....something tells me you're right.  There are some things you just picture the outcome in your head before it ever even happens.


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## Odin (Oct 10, 2008)

Do you know what the rules are?


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## Nolerama (Oct 10, 2008)

Post video, please.


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## terryl965 (Oct 10, 2008)

Where so I can come see


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## Si-Je (Oct 10, 2008)

Wing Chun all the way babies!  lol!
I can't wait!
Will post video when we get it done in Nov.

Terry, gonna contact promoter again and get all details.  We're stuck in Dallas with no car, and it's a bit of a hassle getting to Arlington right now.  We've got a ride for the fight, but he put him on the card pretty quick.  Quess he's thinking that WC would be no big deal.  
Yippie!  I love it when they underestimate you!
Gives you a chance earlier than if they think you can really win.

I think of poor Kimbo.  A great striker, and they ruined him!  Everytime he trys to grapple he gets hurt and beaten.  Dumb.  They should have focused on his strengths, and made his striking better.  Teach him how to avoid takedowns and get out of holds, but, ultimately to get back on his feet and strike.  Dude hits harder than Tyson!  (arguably) but hard nevertheless.
Point being.
Wing Chun all the way.  Two styles of WC/WT in the ring.  From a fighter than has had 10+ years training in both styles of WC/WT.  Not a novice.  Not half a** training WC/WT.  A devoted practitioner than fully understands WC/WT.
It's gonna be bad a**!
love ya'll!
WOOOT!


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## Skpotamus (Oct 11, 2008)

Si-Je said:


> Wing Chun all the way babies! lol!
> 
> *I think of poor Kimbo. A great striker, and they ruined him! Everytime he trys to grapple he gets hurt and beaten. Dumb. They should have focused on his strengths, and made his striking better. Teach him how to avoid takedowns and get out of holds, but, ultimately to get back on his feet and strike. Dude hits harder than Tyson! (arguably) but hard nevertheless.*
> *Point being.*
> ...


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## Si-Je (Oct 11, 2008)

Ouch!
Just posting what I think, feel, and know.  Your opinion of me is based on your ignorance of me, my fighting style, and philosophy.
But, I ain't mad at ya.

I still stick to what I've said forever on this thread.  When you fight, stick to what you train, what you know, and the style you've been devoting your training to.  If you change your fighting style for someone else, then you negate all of your training.  Thus, placing yourself at a disadvantage.
Kimbo knew nothing of grappling and BJJ.  three to six months is not enough training to fight someone that has possibly devoted years to wrestling, grappling, etc.

But, that's my main problem with MMA.  They don't devote enough time in training one art or style before cross trainning another.  Therefore, you cannot have a full understanding of what you train, and it becomes brawling, winning based on strength, and dumb luck.

Some MMA guys devote a year or more to BJJ or Muy Tai, or boxing etc.  And these fighters stand out in the ring.  Because their strengths in fighting come out in competition, and they stick with their training and style of fighting.

Same same here.  He's just going to use a style that no one else uses.  Something different.  New (but old to those that train it.)
Just hoping that we can get him in good enough condition before the fight.  He does have a day job, and he can't workout 4-8 hours a day like these guys tend to do.

But, then, it's Wing Chun.  He shouldn't need alot of strength, just alot of cardio and calestinics.


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## Tez3 (Oct 11, 2008)

A novice MMA fighter shouldn't be fighting an experienced MMA fighter. 
Si-je with the greatest respect in the world I don't think you know much about MMA or MMA fighters, they don't just train a little of this a little of that and hash it together. They train to be MMA fighters, most if not all do have a core style, I also know a couple of fighters whose core style is WC, it's not that unusual a style. 
You can't just base your opinion on MMA on Kimbo bless him! MMA isn't brawling based on luck etc there's far more to it than that and I'm afraid you are insulting our intelligence if you think otherwise. You are talking about well trained well rounded fighters not just people who cobble together a style. 
To a certain extent you have to adapt your style of fighting to how your opponent is, you do know who the opponent is? How many fights has he had and is he mainly a standup or floor fighter? What rules are you fighting under? What weight is the fight at?
Your opponent will be studying how your fighter is going to fight, he and his team will be putting together tactics that will negate your guys moves. You have to do the same, MMA isn't called physical chess for nothing. 
Most MMA fighters have day jobs, if you are fighting someone who is training 6-8 hours a day you are fighting a professional fighter and I recommned you get out now. 
Si-Je I'm sorry if this sounds discouraging, I'm really worried that this is going to end badly because of your naivety and I would be really sorry if that happened.


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## Skpotamus (Oct 11, 2008)

I apologize if my post sounded rude.....it was rude and disrespectful. I wasn't sure if you were someone trying to troll on an internet forum (lots of that) or someone very new to MMA competitions. I made an assumption and well... I made an @$$ of myself. 

Let me rephrase my post in a hopefully helpful, and not quite so disrespectful way.

Kimbo is and was an undisciplined brawler with no training. He made a name for himself on youtube by posting videos of himself beating on random thugs in boatyards, backyards and alleys. his boxing is really sloppy, he has no defensive skills, he's flat footed with no lateral movement, he has no headmovement and his punches are what we call "arm punches", meaning his body isn't being torgued into his punches (which is where all of your power comes from for boxing punches). He's been pushed hard by a promotor to sell more tickets and PPV buys. He's been fed a string of low level fighters and hyped to ridiculous levels. His first three opponents have a combined record of 33 wins-34 losses. His last opponentw as supposed to be Ken shamrock, an old fighter who hasn't won a fight in 4 years of active competition (and only won 2 since 2000). His opponent was changed to a light heavyweight (205lb fighter vs Kimbo's 240lbs), and he got KO'ed with a jab. After the fight, his "posse" threatened Seth Petruzelli and his wife. Threats of shooting and rape were actually made. Not exactly a classy group of people. 


You need to be careful jumping into mma without having good crosstraining and a good gym and an experienced MMA coach to get you ready. You need to have a manager that will not screw you over or let the promotors screw you over. A young fighter should be matched up against other young fighters with similar backgrounds to let them grow and have competitive fights. Many promotors though, will throw a first time fighter in with another fighter with as many as 30 professional fights so they can have exciting fights (read that bloodbath), or to give the hometown fighter a win in front of their fans. I've even seen promotors put new fighters in with much heavier, more experienced fighters so they could give the crowd an exciting knockout. You should do research on your opponent and find out how many fights they've had, what their background is, etc, and train for it accordingly. 

I usually recommend people find some fights closer to their comfort zone before jumping into MMA. EX, for a wing chun practitioner, I would suggest trying to get into a few Muay Thai, san shou or kickboxing matches to get a feel for real full contact and find out what you might need to change to become functional against other styles. All the while learning some grappling and groundfighting. Then getting some matches in BJJ tournaments, submission tournies, etc to get comfortable with groundfighting. Then bringing it all together with an MMA match. 

Jumping stragiht into MMA without having crosstrained is a good way to lose, and possibly get hurt. Especially if you don't have a manager or a good promotor watching out for your interests. 

Going into a MMA fight without proper prepartion is actually disrespectful to the sport of MMA and some fighters will go out of their way to hurt people who do that because they feel like they're being disrespected (I've seen people snap arms and hold chokes for way too long over that before). 

Most MMA fighters spend years training in various styles to gain proficiency. We're not talking about one or two, but many spend 10+ years studying one style and then begin crosstraining (spending years studying that style as well) to be ready for a MMA fight. Those are the successful fighters. The ones that haven't thoroughly crosstrained have lost, most of the times regardless of their skill levels. 

EX Maurice Smith - one of the most succesful kickboxers in american history. His record in professional kickboxing against world class competition - 63-11-4, with 45 of those wins coming by KO. One of, if not the best kickboxers to come out of the US. 

He jumped into MMA, expecting to be able to beat grapplers and cross trained fighters by "just hitting them before htey took him down" (his words form an interview). His current record when in MMA: 12-11. He lost almost as many fights as he won. A truly elite world class standup fighter who has trouble breaking .500 in MMA. Why? He didn't crosstrain and round out his world class striking with good, solid grappling and groundfighting. 

EX2: Royce gracie. The legend. The man who made MMA popular. He dominated the early UFC's with his mastery of Brazilian Jiu-jitsu. He never evolved his game though. He never crosstrained. His BJJ was the same he'd trained from infancy. He was a true master of BJJ, but his wrestling was horrible, and his striking was pathetic. When he returned to competition he was no longer dominant. His record from 2000 on is 3-2-2. With one of those wins being tainted by the fact he was caught using steroids. The other two wins were against fighters with a combined MMA record of 3-17. Not exactly breathtaking performances. 

Thsoe two examples are of elite, world class athletes who failed to cross train for mma and paid for it when the competition begain to crosstrain. 

All of the current high level competitors and champions in any organization are highly crosstrained. Most have high level skills in every facet of the MMA fight game. 

I would suggest that you go to a MMA school and practice with some of the experienced mma students before you decide to try a full out fight. It can be truly eye opening as to what you can and cannot do under real pressure and a lot safer than getting into a cage or ring with a promotor that might just want to see you get hurt so they can sell more tickets at their next show.

I hope this helps a little bit more than my last post. 

Good luck and let us know what you decide.


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## MJS (Oct 11, 2008)

This is a question for Si-Je

Has your husband ever done any cage fighting before?  If so, what is his experience with it?

Has he done any grappling aside from the anti-grappling that is usually taught in WC?

How long has your husband been training in WC?

What is the training experience of the person he is fighting?


Don't take this as me slamming your husband or the art that you both train. Just trying to get a better understanding of his training time as well as the other person.

Mike


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## Journeyman (Oct 11, 2008)

Si-Ji's husband isn't jumping straight into MMA.  The cage match she's talking about is a san shou contest.  Seems like a reasonable approach for a wing chun practitioner.


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## Nolerama (Oct 11, 2008)

There should be some concern as to what kind of style his opponent practices. What if it's another WCer, who has 10 years in Judo competition? Or a Greco guy? Takedowns turn into slams in those competitions.

Si Je's husband should still concern himself with his opponent. It's not an ego thing... It's common sense.


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## Si-Je (Oct 11, 2008)

Okay guys, I do apologize.  We usually chat on the WC forum and ya'll aren't familiar with us.
My hubbie is a third don in Kempo, a first degree blackbelt in judo, and a Level 5 techician under two different masters.  WC and WT stylists.
He's trained WC/WT for over 13 years.
He was MCMAP instructor in the Marine Corps.
Marine Force Recon.
College Wrestler and football.

He has fought San Shau fights before on a raised ring, with NO ropes.
He is 7-1 in San Shau.  TaiJi Legacy.
These are cometitions where you fight 3, 3 minute rounds each fighter.  You fight generally 3-7 different fighters that same day.  You know nothing of these fighters before you fight.

The kid hubbie is fighting is younger than him.  Probably 5-10 years, we don't know or care.
They will both be 235lbs or so, again doesn't matter.
The fighting rules are San Shau based.  Takedowns allowed and points given, just no ground fighting.  Fighters will be pulled up to fight again.
But, this could change at a moments notice.
The opponent is a grappler.  MMA stylist.  Again it doesn't matter.
The backup opponent weighs 250lbs. and is a striker.
We don't know anything about the fighters record, whatever.  See,...

With WC you do not anticipate the fighter, their attack style, moves, or intention.  This will hinder you.  You adapt immediately and use the energy they give you when they attack.  We train to improvise immediately.  To feel constantly, and to stay relaxed and deflect the oppoent.  Whether they grapple you, try a takedown, kick, puch, feint doesn't matter.
You are taking their space away by constantly moving forward defending and attacking at the same time.
This is not always actually done by some WC practitioners in a fight.  Why?  I don't know.  That's how we train.  We kick, "block", punch and step forward into your attack at the same time, following up with chainpunching never giving any fighter the chance to re-collect and get a "game plan" of attack or defense together.

It's very aggressive, very brutal, and very quick.  To qote homer simpson, "respond with swift and blinding violence!"  lol! (JJ)

The main thing I'm worried about is that he may lose to disqualification.  But, I think he's familiar enough with San Shau rules from experience, should be okay.  If they let it go to the ground and continue.  I'm not sure if he may accidentially break a rule or two because of the anti-grappling.
We'll see.

As for Kimbo.  I only brought him up as an example of what happens when you take a fighter and make him fight a way that doesn't play to his/her strengths.  Should've refined his striking techniques, and focused on teaching him escapes for the grappling and BJJ holds.  To get back on his feet to strike (his strength) asap.  Would have been better for him.
As for him threatening people, that sucks.  And again, I ment to use him as an example of what happens to a fighter when you mess with his style too much too soon.  He needed more time to learn BJJ before using it in a fight.  
love ya'll!


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## Tez3 (Oct 12, 2008)

If this is a San Shou match it isn't MMA. Si-Je you should have posted this in one of the CMA forums not the MMA one as it's misleading. This is nothing like an MMA competition, there's no ground fighting for a start.
I have a question though, if it's a San Shou competition surely the WC style of fighting won't come as any surprise to people who practice a CMA? 
Kimbo doesn't have a 'style', he's the wrong person to use as an example of MMA.


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## Si-Je (Oct 12, 2008)

It is an MMA match in a Cage.  Just that it's in Texas and the promoter doesn't want to pay the boxing commision.  (that's all I can figure)  
I think he's lying to us.
But, it's basic san shau rules.  
Jesse's ready to go to the ground if needed.  It's a cage match.  so, I'm thinking that it will go to that and they won't break it if it does.
Opps... I mean hubbie.  

But, what does it matter?  It's a cage match, between a striker and a grappler?  I thought that was weird.  Why match a striker against a grappler if the grappler can't grapple on the ground?

Anyways, 
it's a fight.  and he found the promoter... not me.
I've never met the dude.
when hubbie fights, and wins.  me and the promoter will talk.  
And it won't be a pretty talk.  
I'll have to take care of this crap!  Money.  ... I hate money talks... it should be a given. 
If he gives a good show, then he should be paid.

Sorry, Tez, we are not usually like this, but people don't have medical and such these days.  You wouldn't believe how expensive food is here in America!!!
ack!
forget gas!
It's a depression, I don't care what anyone says.  And he will win. He just need shorts and gloves.
We'll find a way to get those in the next month. but,, it'll get in the way of food. 
bummer...

Anyways, ... I'll handle the promoter.  This fight is just the "try-out"fight.  When he sees hubbie and everyone there, then, well... I'll really need your advice on how to deal with these people!


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## Si-Je (Oct 12, 2008)

In Texas, if you fight to the ground, you have to be certified with the boxing commision to fight.  
and you can only fight once every three months.
But, with San Shau you can fight as many times as you can, and you don't need as much regulations.

You just can't wrestle on the ground.  (don't ask me how the boxing commision here has authority over wrestling or BJJ/MAA fights here, they just do.)
We're trying to work around that, and get a paid fight, maybe in his second or third fight..


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## MJS (Oct 12, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> If this is a San Shou match it isn't MMA. Si-Je you should have posted this in one of the CMA forums not the MMA one as it's misleading. This is nothing like an MMA competition, there's no ground fighting for a start.
> I have a question though, if it's a San Shou competition surely the WC style of fighting won't come as any surprise to people who practice a CMA?
> Kimbo doesn't have a 'style', he's the wrong person to use as an example of MMA.


 


Si-Je said:


> It is an MMA match in a Cage. Just that it's in Texas and the promoter doesn't want to pay the boxing commision. (that's all I can figure)
> I think he's lying to us.
> But, it's basic san shau rules.


 
I'm a bit inclined to agree with Tez here.  Maybe I'm missing something, but if its a SS match, how can it be a MMA match if MMA rules are not in effect?


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## jarrod (Oct 12, 2008)

tez & mjs are correct.  san shou in a cage is san shou in a cage, not mma.

jf


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## Skpotamus (Oct 12, 2008)

It sounds incredibly confusing.  San Shou is not mma.  MMA has pretty well defined rules and covers both standup and ground fighting.  If there's no groundfighting allowed, then it's not MMA.  

If the promotor won't go through the trouble of legitimizing his organization for mma and is going to have mma fights, you can guarantee he won't give a crap about fighters safety, and probably won't have insurance for fighters.  It's entirely possible that he won't even have qualified medical professionals on hand.  I've seen events like this where the promotor would lie to fighters about their opponents, not even have scales on hand for weigh-ins, etc.  

If you haven't ironed out money ahead of time, you won't get paid.  Period.  There's a reason professional fighters and legimate promotors use contracts.  They define the agreed upon rules and compensation ahead of time.  

I'm not from texas, but I did look up texas sport licensing laws:

http://www.license.state.tx.us/sports/sportslaw.htm

*Sec. 2052.116. Amateur Combative Sports Association Registration.​*A person may not act as an amateur combative sports association unless the person is registered under this chapter.​*Sec. 2052.117. Amateur Combative Sports Association Registration Requirements.​*(a) An applicant for registration as an amateur combative sports association must apply on a form acceptable to
the executive director.
(b) An application must be accompanied by:
(1) a registration fee in the amount set by the commission;
(2) proof of compliance with requirements established by rule for:
(A) insurance; and
(B) surety bonds, if any;
(3) a copy of the rules of the association establishing standards of conduct for contestants and
officials; and
(4) proof that the association is recognized or organized as a nonprofit organization under the laws of
this state or has such status under federal law.​(c) Rules of the association must be approved by the department.

*Sec. 2052.252. Regulated Amateur Events.​*(a) This section applies to an amateur combative sports event, other than an event described by Section
2052.110, in which a fee is charged for admission to the event.
(b) The amateur combative sports association sponsoring or producing the event shall register with the
department not later than 30 days before the date the event begins.​(c) The event may take place only if the executive director approves the event not later than seven days before the date the event begins.
(d) Each contestant in the event must have been a member of the amateur combative sports association for the 30-day period immediately preceding the date the event begins and must be a member on the date of the
event.
(e) The amateur combative sports association shall determine the amateur standing of the event contestants and
shall establish training programs consisting of at least 30 days of training for each contestant.
(f) The event is subject to the supervision of the executive director.
(g) Each contestant participating in the event must be examined by a licensed physician within a reasonable
time before the event begins. A licensed physician must be present at ringside during the entire event.
(h) A professional combative sports contestant licensed under this chapter may not participate as a contestant​in the event.
 
Amateur events are regulated as well.  If this promotor isn't following the rules of the state then you should stay away IMHO.

When is this fight scheduled to take place, where is it at and who is the promotor?


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## MJS (Oct 12, 2008)

Fighter safety is key IMO.  If someone gets hurt, seriously or not, the promoter will find that he'll have more headaches than he bargained for, had he just done the right thing in the first place.


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## Si-Je (Oct 12, 2008)

Nevermind.
The fight is on.  He's fighting a MMA grappler in a MMA cage.  First fight for him of this nature.  This promoter does more San Shou fights because they pay their fighters what their worth.
I do expect we'll get there and find out that night that ground fighting is allowed.  Doesn't really matter.  
The point being it's a competition with a fighter using Wing Chun instead of MMA or BJJ in the cage.  

We're really getting hung up on semantics here and missing that.  We'll contact the promoter this week and find out more infomation for you guys, but I'm really realizing that the video will speak for itself more.
Unless, people make excuses for his opponent when he loses to a WC fighter.  Which is what we expect.  
Doesn't much matter, as long as I can keep getting him fights.  Whatever the "rules" are.

Thanks for your concern for him.  We do appreciate that.  But, don't worry too much about him.  He's an awesome fighter, and more importantly, and amazing martial artist.  He'll be fine.  And it will be fun!  This is something he enjoys.

I was just really excited because we just found out that he got the fight, much of the details of the fight haven't been discussed yet.  The fight is "at the last minute" but he's been training for the past three months, so it's not as spur of the momement as it seems for us.
He and I am tired of WC and kung fu stylists making excusses for not competiting in the cage or whatever.  Because they say the rules dilute the art.  It doesn't.  And he's tired of other styles and MMA/BJJ cage fighters disrespecting our art.  There's been years of too much talk on both sides and not enough action.
He wants to put his art to the test in the ring.  Any fight, any where he can get a fight to prove the effectiveness of WC in and out of the ring.
No one wants to challenge him out of the ring.  So he's coming to them, playing by thier rules, and going to fight in the ring/cage.
We're totally coming to play their game their way.  So, for us, it doesn't matter what the rules in the ring are.  He'll have to adapt when he gets there anyways.  We don't have time or desire to study the opponents right now, it's just an ameture fight.  Hopefully, we'll be able to get him a more professional fight soon, in the near future.


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## geezer (Oct 12, 2008)

Si-Je said:


> Wing Chun all the way babies!  lol!
> I can't wait!
> Will post video when we get it done in Nov.



Hey Si Je, Win or lose, and regardless of whether they include grappling, as long as your "hubbie" doesn't get seriously injured, the experience will be worth it. And like we've been saying on the WC forum, It's time to see more people take WC/WT to the cage. I'm looking forward to the video...even if I have to spend half an hour downloading it (I'm a poor guy stuck with dial-up). Best of luck.


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## Si-Je (Oct 12, 2008)

LOL!  Us too with the dail-up!  It make take a really riduclous amout of time for us to just upload the darn thing.

I'm just trying to make sure he's clear to fight his style his way when he gets in the ring.  Alot of these promoters and such want to try to force a fighter to learn and/or use grappling/BJJ whatever in their fights.  We're not gonna have anything to do with that.   

But, this promoter isn't pushing it.  The other promoters around here I've been talking to wanted him to be "well rounded" and use technique that they approved of.  
Plus, they want him to fight 10 ameture fights for free first before getting a paid fight.  
Unacceptable.
He's already fought 8 fights ameture for free in San Shou already. And numerous other real world fighting in the military.  He's not a greenhorn. lol!

At least this promoter is wanting to get him a paid fight after this fight in November.  But, we'll see.  
Thanks for the support, Geezer.


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## Si-Je (Oct 12, 2008)

Skpotamus said:


> It sounds incredibly confusing. San Shou is not mma. MMA has pretty well defined rules and covers both standup and ground fighting. If there's no groundfighting allowed, then it's not MMA.
> 
> If the promotor won't go through the trouble of legitimizing his organization for mma and is going to have mma fights, you can guarantee he won't give a crap about fighters safety, and probably won't have insurance for fighters. It's entirely possible that he won't even have qualified medical professionals on hand. I've seen events like this where the promotor would lie to fighters about their opponents, not even have scales on hand for weigh-ins, etc.
> 
> ...


 
He's legitimate, he's just using San Shou rules for now to get his fighters fights.  Fights that pay more.

There will be no compensation for this fight.  The promoter wants to see hubbie fight first, then he'll be able to say what he can offer us.  
He won't offer a contract until he knows if hubbie can fight.  Why would he?  He hasn't seen him fight yet.

As for the rules of the state, they are being followed.  
 Hubbie's already got a cornerman, doctor (from his work) and we are taking care of hubbies health and safety.  
Our promoter owns a MMA school in Arlington and holds many fights at the local colleges.  

I just was confused too about why the rules were San Shou rules but the fight held in a MMA cage.  But, if that's the way he wants to do it, then fine.  Not a big deal, really.  That's safer anyway, San Shou fighting on a three foot raised ring with no ropes sounds more dangerous to me anyways.  At least with the cage he doesn't have the chance of falling or being thrown off the ring.
Anyways, We'll see when we get there.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 12, 2008)

Okay so it is San Shou rather than an MMA fight. (two totally different things)  Si-Je I would be concerned that you are not going to get any pay day's down the road if this promoter is only organizing and promoting San Shou fights. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  MMA is where the money is at!

Still having said that if your husband is up for the competition and is ready then he should have a good time pay day or no.  However if you want to break into the MMA business as a fighter then you are going to have to get with promoters who promoter MMA fights and are paying their fighter's.  You will also have to accomodate your system ie. Wing Chun to the MMA game or else probably suffer the consequences. 

Still no matter what I wish you and yours the very best!


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## MJS (Oct 13, 2008)

Si-Je said:


> Nevermind.
> The fight is on. He's fighting a MMA grappler in a MMA cage. First fight for him of this nature. This promoter does more San Shou fights because they pay their fighters what their worth.
> I do expect we'll get there and find out that night that ground fighting is allowed. Doesn't really matter.
> The point being it's a competition with a fighter using Wing Chun instead of MMA or BJJ in the cage.


 
While I'm glad that you're happy for your husband, and I do look forward to the results and video if you post one, you still seem to be confused, or refusing to accept the fact that while this may be taking place in a cage vs. an open, raised platform, it isn't an MMA match, its San Shou, and should be called that.  The only thing that's changed is the type of area they're fighting on, but the rules have no conformed to MMA rules.  



> We're really getting hung up on semantics here and missing that. We'll contact the promoter this week and find out more infomation for you guys, but I'm really realizing that the video will speak for itself more.
> Unless, people make excuses for his opponent when he loses to a WC fighter. Which is what we expect.
> Doesn't much matter, as long as I can keep getting him fights. Whatever the "rules" are.


 
Well, in the big scope of things, those 'little things' are more important than you think.   If someone drives a compact car, they shouldn't try to tell people or pass the car along as a full size SUV.  Its a car.  



> Thanks for your concern for him. We do appreciate that. But, don't worry too much about him. He's an awesome fighter, and more importantly, and amazing martial artist. He'll be fine. And it will be fun! This is something he enjoys.


 
And again, I wish him the best of luck.  Of course, there are thousands of awesome fighters out there, and being awesome isn't necessarily a key to success.  



> I was just really excited because we just found out that he got the fight, much of the details of the fight haven't been discussed yet. The fight is "at the last minute" but he's been training for the past three months, so it's not as spur of the momement as it seems for us.
> He and I am tired of WC and kung fu stylists making excusses for not competiting in the cage or whatever. Because they say the rules dilute the art. It doesn't. And he's tired of other styles and MMA/BJJ cage fighters disrespecting our art. There's been years of too much talk on both sides and not enough action.
> He wants to put his art to the test in the ring. Any fight, any where he can get a fight to prove the effectiveness of WC in and out of the ring.
> No one wants to challenge him out of the ring. So he's coming to them, playing by thier rules, and going to fight in the ring/cage.
> We're totally coming to play their game their way. So, for us, it doesn't matter what the rules in the ring are. He'll have to adapt when he gets there anyways. We don't have time or desire to study the opponents right now, it's just an ameture fight. Hopefully, we'll be able to get him a more professional fight soon, in the near future.


 
Again, good luck to him, and let us know how it goes.


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## MJS (Oct 13, 2008)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Okay so it is San Shou rather than an MMA fight. (two totally different things) Si-Je I would be concerned that you are not going to get any pay day's down the road if this promoter is only organizing and promoting San Shou fights.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Bold part mine.  This is so very true.  IMHO, no matter how much someone wants to stay 'pure' to their base art, I think the days of one dimensional fighters are a thing of the past, especially if you want to fight MMA.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 13, 2008)

MJS said:


> Bold part mine.  This is so very true.  IMHO, no matter how much someone wants to stay 'pure' to their base art, I think the days of one dimensional fighters are a thing of the past, especially if you want to fight MMA.



Absolutely Mike,

If an IRT practitioner was getting ready for a MMA style fight then months out all we would be doing would be to work on empty hand striking (boxing and Muay Thai), Throws and takedowns plus defenses and then hone the ground game to the extreme.  These are all things we do in IRT but in order to get the practitioner ready it would be necessary to focus specifically on the above and take out all of the tool work, small joint manipulations, certain kicks, etc.  In order to win in MMA you need to focus specifically for the ring and what you will be facing in the ring.


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## Si-Je (Oct 13, 2008)

Okay guys.  
It is under San Shou rules, but that's because that gives the promoter more options and his fighters can fight more.
He's fighting an MMA stylist.  
A grappler.
What I usually hear from folks are things like:
1.  "WC can't defend against a good clinch in standup (or on the ground) especially when thier back is against the cage."  Well see.
or
2.  "WC can't defend against a grappling takedown."  Again we'll be able to see if that is so in this fight.
3.  "Or WC can't defend against a good boxer and hook punching."  Again Dai Sau!  we'll see in this fight.
4.  "Or WC isn't a well rounded style."  I disagree.  And again we'll be able to see most of that in this fight.

As for getting paid well in MMA or UFC.  I'm finding that that is NOT happening for most if not all of the big name fighters.  It's sad.  And the main reason this promoter focuses on San Shou fights.  They pay well!
CBS sports's XC Elite MMA fights pay way more than UFC and other cage matches.

food for thought:

http://www.mmaweekly.com/absolutenm/templates/dailynews.asp?articleid=1728&zoneid=13


> *DOLLARS AND SENSE IN MMA*
> Thursday, March 16, 2006 - by Jeff Cain - MMAWeekly.com
> The Ultimate Fighter reality TV show and its wide reaching audience has changed the face of Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) in North America. Were witnessing a growth spurt.
> 
> ...



____________________________________________________________

I'm finding many articles about this issue all over the web.
We went with this promoter because he's after the paying fights.  
The other MMA promoters in our area wanted him to fight for free 8-10 times before a paying fight of 300-500 dollars.  That sucks!
They're taking advantage of these MMA guys, which is an injustice to them and it ticks me off.
So, if and when he does a full MMA cage match, it'll practically be for free.  While we've got no medical insurance in the meantime.  Sorry, guys, we've got to go where the (honest) money is for now.  

In May I'm hoping to get him a MMA match for the troops on base in Texas.  That will be a show worth doing for "free".


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## Laoshi77 (Oct 13, 2008)

Si-Je said:


> He and I am tired of WC and kung fu stylists making excusses for not competiting in the cage or whatever. Because they say the rules dilute the art. It doesn't. And he's tired of other styles and MMA/BJJ cage fighters disrespecting our art. There's been years of too much talk on both sides and not enough action.


 
But WC's main attacks are directed to the eyes, throat and groin? These targets are not allowed in most forms of sports competitions so in a sense the art is not getting tested properly due to these restrictions.

I believe there was one practitioner of WC who fought in the UFC but he lost and his credentials are surely in question as if it's the video I remember seeing the guy could barely fight let alone use a particular style!

'Si-Je' I wish your husband all the best and when is the fight exactly?

Kind regards.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 13, 2008)

Yet Si-Je, many MMA top tier fighters have had $100,000 plus pay days at different times.  MMA as far as paying fighters is on a much higher level than any type of kickboxing (san shou) included. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




As for Wing Chun it is a very effective system but highlighting it in a San Shou match does not mean anything compared to it being in an MMA match. (they are two entirely different animals)

*I hope you husband does absolutely great!*





  I also hope that by doing so he represents Wing chun well.  Just don't sell it as a cage match or MMA match as that is not at all what San Shou is. 

Good luck and like everyone else here I look forward to seeing some pictures and also some video! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Take it to them!


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## Si-Je (Oct 13, 2008)

Laoshi77 said:


> But WC's main attacks are directed to the eyes, throat and groin? These targets are not allowed in most forms of sports competitions so in a sense the art is not getting tested properly due to these restrictions.
> 
> I believe there was one practitioner of WC who fought in the UFC but he lost and his credentials are surely in question as if it's the video I remember seeing the guy could barely fight let alone use a particular style!
> 
> ...


 
Those are common targets of Wing Chun, but not the main ones.
The nose, hinge of the jaw, back of the neck, throat yes, knees, inside of the theigh, back of the knee, etc.
Bui Gee, the last hand form focuses on the throat, eyes and such, but until then you chainpunch the face in general.  Sure, on the street I'd prefer the throat, eyes, groin, but the main focus of WC is forward force/pressure, deflection, and relaxation in defense and attack.  To adapt, flow, and respond to the energy of an opponent.  Too simoltaneously defend and attack.  To deflect, kick, step, and punch continiously at the same time.  And most importantly, to evolve as an art.
Some say anti-grappling isn't WT, because it didn't come down through the official masters.  But, it is born of WT principles and concepts, and is essentially striking while on the ground, chi sau on the ground, chainpunching while on the ground.  You even utilize basic stance to keep an opponent from getting between your legs on the ground.  (works like a charm too!)

I saw the guys in UFC that were supposed to be WT.  Really bad fight.  Big black eye on the art in general for WC and WT.  Don't know anything about those guys or where they trained from.  I'm expecting a better fight from hubbie.


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## TaiChiTJ (Oct 13, 2008)

There are wing chun players who have integrated grappling into wing chun. Some teachers will tell you its already there. As always with CMA, how far into it is the teacher able to take you? Does the teacher have the knowledge to begin with? 


http://www.sifuchowwingchun.com/videosale.html


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## Si-Je (Oct 14, 2008)

HE SCREWED US!

is name is is Frank Nguuen.

And there is no fight. what  a COWARD!
I've got another promoter to see if they will let hubbie fight.  ~@@@@2

pisses me off!~@@@##!@


Fiu@!@@@@
what the he@@#%&R$%
?????!!!

 Bummer!
I called him today, and he was too busy hanging out with some hookers,...   bummer!   What a ******!
Did I menton his name is Frank Nguyen?
What a fy@@@@@@c@@@34!

Pardon me, I'm usually more of a LADY!  LOL!
anyways, what a jerk!
I'll still get video,just can't let my hubbie know.. lol!
L0ve ya'll!


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## Skpotamus (Oct 14, 2008)

The reason I was asking about his name earlier is that mma is a fairly tightknit community of fighters and promotors.  If someone screws over a fighter(s), we let each other know about it.

a quick google search came up with the following:
http://www.txmma.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=9943&view=previous

He also has a few threads on other forums about him as well.  

When you start looking around for mma fights, check out mma forums (such as this) and ask people who have experience to point you in the right direction.

You lucked out this time, and found out he was a fraud ahead of time.  Others aren't so lucky and end up in the cage with a veteran mma fighter for their first opponent (like I did).


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## Tez3 (Oct 15, 2008)

Si-Je I'm so sorry, as Skpotamus says though though far better to have found out now. That's a good website he posted up though so with a bit of luck you'll find a fight. There will I'm sure be promoters on there looking for fighters, you can check them out and find the right one. 
Anyway I'm off to the post office! things will work out I'm sure.


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## MJS (Oct 15, 2008)

Si-Je said:


> HE SCREWED US!
> 
> is name is is Frank Nguuen.
> 
> ...


 
Hmmm...going by some of your past replies to us, when we asked questions about certain things, you're surprised by all of this how??  Technically, NONE of this should have been a surprise.  

The little things really do matter.  Things such as clarification on the rules, who the fighters will be fighting, a certified medical team, sponsors/sanctioning, etc.  Unless this event was some 'underground' type setup, there should be no questions.


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## Si-Je (Oct 15, 2008)

Frank Ngyuen is the promoters name.  If this sort of thing is common with these guys, then it's a pretty unacceptable way to do business.  I just found out that he's done this to a friend of ours a couple of times.  He'll put a fighter on the card, and then not tell him where and when the fight was.  So he's a no show, and his fighter gets his win.  Weird.  But, whatever.

I'm working with another promoter for a Real MMA cage match in May for the military guys.  There will be professional scouts there, so, It's really a better gig.

As for this promoter, he really was a waste of time.  That's why I was trying to get ahold of him to iron out the details of the fight.
He really ticked me off.  What we really need is a contract lawyer to consult us before we make a commitment in this fashion.

Hubbie's getting certified with TAMMA next week and getting his boxing commission liscense to start with.  We've got three women that want to start training to fight, and their needed more females at this event in May.
I'll let ya'll know down the line when something more concrete comes up.  
Sorry, I really thought this was a sure deal otherwise I wouldn't have posted and gotten so excited.  7 months until the next chance to fight, unless I can find another one sooner.


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## Nolerama (Oct 15, 2008)

Si-Je said:


> HE SCREWED US!
> 
> is name is is Frank Nguuen.
> 
> ...



Is that libel or slander?

No surprise. Never count your chickens before the eggs have hatched.


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## Tez3 (Oct 16, 2008)

A genuine promoter will be available to speak to at any time, he should also be the first one to mention contracts. He will want fighters he knows will turn up and who will not rip _him_ off. If a purse isn't on offer, very often expenses and a ticket deal will be. A no show is not a good thing as the fighter who turned up still has to be paid and you're one down on the fightcard. If the fighter who turned up is on a ticket deal and has brought a crowd with him to see him fight they go away disgruntled and unhappy. Genuine promoters really don't want that sort of thing.
Si-Je, May isn't far off though I know it's longer than you wanted, have a word with Skip to see who he knows in your area that's trustworthy and if he knows what's coming up anywhere that will be suitable for you. I do have a military (US) pro MMA fighter contact I can put you in touch with if you need more info in that direction.



Noleram, written is libel, slander is verbal but this guy is obviously a fan of rugby as they have hookers in that, it's a playing position!
http://www.england-rugby.com/EnglandRugby/index.cfm?fuseaction=Juniors.Juniors_Detail&storyid=12673


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## jks9199 (Oct 16, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> A genuine promoter will be available to speak to at any time, he should also be the first one to mention contracts. He will want fighters he knows will turn up and who will not rip _him_ off. If a purse isn't on offer, very often expenses and a ticket deal will be. A no show is not a good thing as the fighter who turned up still has to be paid and you're one down on the fightcard. If the fighter who turned up is on a ticket deal and has brought a crowd with him to see him fight they go away disgruntled and unhappy. Genuine promoters really don't want that sort of thing.
> Si-Je, May isn't far off though I know it's longer than you wanted, have a word with Skip to see who he knows in your area that's trustworthy and if he knows what's coming up anywhere that will be suitable for you. I do have a military (US) pro MMA fighter contact I can put you in touch with if you need more info in that direction.
> 
> 
> ...


Tez makes good points -- but I would suggest a modification.

A good promoter will be reachable, and will be willing to speak with you.  They may not be available at any given time; many in the US are not full time fight promoters, but have "real" jobs, too.  They should return calls promptly, and be willing to make appointments or otherwise schedule meetings with you.  And they should show up!

I will absolutely second that they should have contracts ready, and be willing to abide by them.

Unfortunately, by skipping the time in the amateur/semi-pro, and trying to go straight into pro fights, Si-Je & her husband miss out on the opportunity to hear about the reputations and headaches of other promoters.


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## Tez3 (Oct 16, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> Tez makes good points -- but I would suggest a modification.
> 
> A good promoter will be reachable, and will be willing to speak with you. They may not be available at any given time; many in the US are not full time fight promoters, but have "real" jobs, too. They should return calls promptly, and be willing to make appointments or otherwise schedule meetings with you. And they should show up!
> 
> ...


 
Absolutely spot on! I work shifts and can talk at work so sadly am available at any time lol!!
What a promoter wants is happy customers, that's the fighters and the audience. Audiinces should go away thinking they've seen well matched exciting fights, have been entertained and not ripped off. The fighters should feel confident their well being is paramount, that they are treated fairly with the matchmaking and they enjoy themselves. If they are being paid they should get it on the night.
Skipping am/semi pro also has other draw backs which may hinder getting into pro. A promoter has no way of knowing without a record or reputation what sort of fighter you are, most will be very wary of taking a fighter who is going straight into pro without going up the ladder first. An exception would probably be made in the case of a proven kickboxer/boxer/BJJer who they can see has trained with reputable people etc. This is where a coach/trainer/instructor is invaluable, they should know which promoters they trust and it works the other way too. I can't think of any promoter who will take the word of an unknown who hasn't a fight record, no known trainer and wants to fight pro rules. They don't have the time either to watch a fighter to see if he can fight. That's what the ams and semis are for. There's promotion here which also has one in America ( Florida I think) I can sound them out but with a lack of record I doubt they'll be interested at the moment.To be honest I find it hard to see a way around it but will have a think anyway!!


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## Tez3 (Oct 16, 2008)

Si-Je. try these people http://www.cagewarriorsusa.com/fighterswanted.php

Cagewarriors has done many shows here, we actually did one for them in the NE of England a few years back. I can vouch for the team who run the shows. The problem I think from your point of view is the location and the fact I think you will be offered amateur but if you have video proof of fighting ability you may be able to persuade them to give you a debut pro fight. Good luck anyway!


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