# On Responsibility and the Dissemination of information



## Flying Crane (Mar 19, 2010)

My comments here were sparked by another thread, I felt it might be appropriate to split away and focus on this particular topic.

We have seen many times in the threads here, members lament the state of the martial arts today.  Lots of poor instructors, people doing things that they don't really understand, people trying to be teachers before they are ready, people fooling themselves into believing they are more skilled and more knowledgeable than they really are.  It seems like the quality of the arts is crumbling before our very eyes.

I think that at least in part, we are all to blame.  The source of our guilt actually lies in our generosity.  In short, we are too free with information.

People come onto the forums to discuss the martial arts and meet with like-minded folks.  There are a lot of people here representing a wide variety of systems, centuries worth of collective experience, and a huge amount of information.  The forums like MT are a vast and wealthy resource for this kind of material.  In many ways this is a great thing.

But, it can also be a bad thing.  

Sometimes new people arrive on the scene and ask for information that they may not be ready for, they do not have the background to understand, or they are simply approaching the subject in the wrong way.  Maybe they would be better off getting the answer to certain types of questions from their own teachers, rather than from an internet discussion.

We, in our generosity, are all too willing to share our knowledge, not considering the pitfalls that we might be helping to create.  A lot of information is perfectly fine to share.  Maybe some information should not be shared, at least not in this type of venue.

When someone is a beginner in an art and they come to the forums and start asking questions about the technical delivery of certain techniques, I feel they are attempting to discuss something that is inappropriate to this venue.  Not because it is a secret, or forbidden or something.  Rather, this kind of topic needs hands-on interaction to understand, and they should be getting these answers directly from their teachers.  Many arts are heavily splintered, and different lineages do things differently.  If they start getting advice online from people across different lineages, they will end up with a mish-mash of information that lacks coherence and cohesiveness, and will give them more troubles than they had before they asked the question.  They end up with a bunch of half-understood concepts and fool themselves into thinking they know more than they do.  And this interferes with their martial training and development.

We all want to encourage beginners in their enthusiasm and study of the martial arts.  We do not want to discourage them and make them give up, nor chase them away from the forums.  They may have something good to contribute to the discussions and they may be able to learn some appropriate things from the discussions that go on here.

But I think offering this kind of technical information, under these circumstances, has a great potential to do more harm than good.  In my opinion, the many members here who have a lot of knowledge and experience have a responsibility to guide the beginners in helping them understand that there is a right way and a wrong way to go about their training and in getting their information.  I think these members would do a greater service to the beginners if they were more willing to point this out to them, rather than just give them the information they were hoping for.  I think that if we choose to engage in a discussion with a beginner, we should be giving them the information that they NEED, even when it's not the information that they WANT.

I actually do see this in some cases here.  It's been a while, but we sometimes get a newbie who posts about how he is training himself in some kind of sword work.  The sword community tends to unite in telling him that this is really a bad idea, and he needs to get a good teacher or else he is going to severely hurt himself or someone else.  

I'd like to see that kind of unity in the other forums and venues.  Otherwise we are contributing to the miseducation of these people and we share in the responsibility for letting the quality of martial arts fall.

soapbox over.

comments welcome.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 19, 2010)

I also feel that it is that very thing that chases a lot of experinced MAists away from MT.


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## terryl965 (Mar 19, 2010)

Michael I just wanted to say thank you for one of the best post I have ever read on MT or any other forum. You my friend are what makes people like me be grateful I was able to read and be a small part of your thinking. I am always humble by the meat and substance you bring with every post. I am unable to rep you and thought this was a better way of doing things.


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## Bruno@MT (Mar 19, 2010)

This is in part the fault of the maintainers of the art themselves.

In Genbukan, there are strict rules about sharing information with outsiders. Private information is not shared with non-members. General topics, history, etc are all fine discussion topics, but specific techniques are off limits if you want to remain a member.

These things are only discussed with your sensei and fellow members. And even within genbukan, lots of information is only available at certain levels. this is both to protect the art and the students.

So imo, the premature sharing of information is really the fault of the ones sharing it. There are enough sensei sharing information on kyusho and other things that should really only be taught to students that are mature enough in their art and as a person to understand it properly and use it appropriately.


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## Blindside (Mar 19, 2010)

To quote Colonel Sherman T. Potter; "horsepucky."

The downside of explaining or discussing an alternate way of doing step X of kata Y is exactly what? 

If the asker doesn't have an instructor he is going to have a poor form no matter what how much or how little information is put out there.

If the asker has an instructor, and the answer given is different than whatever is that school/lineage norm is, he is presumably going to get corrected by said instructor, if not, well, that really isn't much of an instructor to start with. 

Maybe I was the only person to ever have two different instructors do things differently in the same art, BUT since its happened to me in three different arts with at least 6 different instructors, I'm a bit skeptical about that. Doing something one way and then learning another didn't cripple my advancement in that art, it gave me a broader background about the use of the art. 

I don't believe that providing good information damages a person from receiving other good information. For the asker they have to figure out if the information generated off a forum with a bunch of martial arts weirdos is actually valid, and I hope to god they are mentally criticizing the material they are getting from their own instructor. Its called research.

"Research is what I am doing, when I don't know what I am doing." Wernher Von Braun


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## seasoned (Mar 19, 2010)

Great thread Michael, and I fully respect your input. I will agree that we do get way ahead of ourselves in sharing much information, perhaps prematurely. We are all guilty of this, but that is what makes MT so unique. The amount of information that may get into the novice hands is minuscule to the amount of positive sharing that takes place, IMHO. I would be more cognitive of the study and it's detrimental affect on members of MT, for sure.


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## Bob Hubbard (Mar 19, 2010)

The purpose of this, and most other forums is to spread knowledge.  If you don't share, sometimes others will, sometimes they won't and sometimes they share the wrong things which hang there.  I can understand the concerns and respect them, but in the end, we strive to be an information source, not just a cool place to argue politics. 

Good topic.


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## Carol (Mar 19, 2010)

Personally I have benefitted a lot from the people that have shared their info with me.  I thnk overall, the benefits of sharing information unquestionably outweigh the risks.  However, there is an element to sharing information, especially online, that I think gets forgotton.  Most people share info because they want to.  I write in my blog because I want to.  I update my facebook page because I want to.  I share a news article with a friend, because I want to.

What makes me want to answer someone is if I know something that can help them, can share it comfortably, and can see the person is making an effort to learn.  They are reaching out, instead of demanding that I reach for them.  I also keep that in mind when I am the asker, instead of the responder.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Mar 19, 2010)

I think sharing information and knowledge is great provided it is done in a responsible manner.  History, lineage, stylistic impressions are all cool things to learn about and increase your knowledge.  Technique, etc. well you can try to share but really it has to be taught in person.  There is no way to learn good technique and skills over an internet forum.  Just like you cannot learn anything of substance via video study.  No instead you have to have a hands on teacher to show you the way and to most importantly point out your mistakes.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 19, 2010)

Flying Crane said:


> comments welcome.



Interesting analysis.

In no particular order...

I often think I'm the only martial arts student here on MT who isn't some kind of master of something or other.  The only black belt I have is in running my mouth.  But I try to never offer MA advice without prefacing it with the disclaimer that I'm a newbie, beginner, and utterly uninformed about all things MA.

I think MT has a truly unique quality to it that makes it a place I value.  I don't post on other martial arts discussion forums; don't care for their general attitude, mostly.

Some of those specialize in outing frauds and running off wannabes.  That can get a bit old, and seems elitist and snobby.  If you're not a member of the 'club', you're a nobody and a target.

On the other hand, because MT is so non-judgmental, I sometimes think that some of the OBVIOUS frauds and fakes who are self-proclaimed eleventy-third degree black belts in i-made-it-all-up-ryu are given a free pass to spew their idiocy; which would not normally be an issue, but even as a newbie I can see that some of their nonsense could get someone hurt if they actually tried to defend themselves using it.

I also tend to think that most of the young skulls full of mush who come by and ask if rama-lama-ding-dong-ryu is better than ooh-bomp-a-lula-ryu are not particularly interested in the answer, so who cares of people who don't know (or do know) the answer give it to them?  Anybody ever notice these guys show up, ask a series of questions, spawn 10,000 page view threads, and never post again?  They're not serious, so who cares if the answers they get are full-tilt bozo?

I notice that the guys who ask which block or kick, etc, tend to be actual students; one hopes they won't take answers they get literally, but take them back to their own instructors, who (also hopefully) will explain to them not to listen to knuckle-draggers or shoe-gazers they run into on teh interwebs.

The ones who perpetually ask if they can learn via DVD or book, if they really have to bow, if they really have to learn a foreign language, if they really have to attend instruction for more than a month or two, and so on, are not particularly interested in the answer; have you ever seen one come back and say _"Gee, I see what you mean; I think I'll find a real dojo and invest a decade or so learning a real art?"_  Nope.  They want to be told that a couple free lessons they got a few years ago at a the local strip-mall kwoon and the DVD they bought on eBay qualify them to put that black belt on and become a mentor on MT.  They'll keep asking until someone tells them what they want to hear.  I am not sure it's a bad thing that morons give bad information to other morons.  They're going to find each other anyway; it's like a law or something.

Anyway, that's my martial arts beginner's rant.  I'm master of nothing, but I like it here.  I am quite aware that there are some high-octane make-um-up black belt frauds on MT, but there are also a lot of really nice people who actually know what they're talking about.  The latter outnumber the former, and they make MT the special place it is.  So I have to pick mouse turds out of the rice; life goes on.


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## seasoned (Mar 19, 2010)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Interesting analysis.
> 
> In no particular order...
> 
> ...


Bill, you may be an expert in training, but you are definitely a master of the written word, or at least you have a unique way of expressing things. And for that you get a double smile.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 19, 2010)

seasoned said:


> Bill, you may be an expert in training, but you are definitely a master of the written word, or at least you have a unique way of expressing things. And for that you get a double smile.



I'm just running my mouth to hear my head ring, brother.  Gotta do something to stay insane these days.


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## SensibleManiac (Mar 19, 2010)

> This is in part the fault of the maintainers of the art themselves.
> 
> In Genbukan, there are strict rules about sharing information with outsiders. Private information is not shared with non-members. General topics, history, etc are all fine discussion topics, but specific techniques are off limits if you want to remain a member.
> 
> ...



I have to disagree with this strongly.

My problem with this is that when people try to control information in this manner it is usually a very bad sign. The reason they are afraid of sharing their info is that it will be exposed. Although from a marketing perspective it makes sense.

Think about it.

If the student is not ready then he won't understand the info either way, but trying to shield others from the info tends to only be an excuse. When information is hidden in this manner and the reasons given are to protect a lineage or "group" then why is it OK as long as that "group" is willing to pay.
This isn't about protecting students, if someone wanted to give the reason of keeping the info out of irresponsible hands, then, ok I can buy that. As there are some people who aren't mature enough or responsible enough to learn and train in the martial arts.

But generally speaking I think "protecting" information in any field is rarely a healthy thing and almost always comes from ulterior motives and fear.

Remember when it comes to the truth, what does an organization matter? In other words, why protect an organization if they are revealing the truth? The organization is irrelevant and truth should be verified by the best method we currently have available, the scientific method. This way no organization can own the truth.

Much in the martial arts has become about money today and keeping students for a long time, and having them continue to pay for a long time.

I'm also highly skeptical when someone mentions advanced techniques. If you look at the best champions in any combat sport you'll notice they all use the same techniques as beginners are taught, the basics. They are basic because that's what you will use the most. The champions use the same techniques, they are just better at them and at using them than everyone else. That's why they are champions. If the advanced techniques theory were true then we would see champions using advanced techniques.
Look at any champion boxer, they use the same jab, cross, hooks, uppercuts as any beginning boxer is taught. It's just that they are alot better at using them. 

This always raises a red flag. I'm not saying there are no secrets, but secret techniques... doubtful.

I have been involved in the martial arts for over 17 years now and I haven't seen them. 

I don't consider myself a master of anything, I consider myself a lifelong student, the reason being that I believe there is always room for evolution and growth, I say this because even though there is not much I haven't seen, there will always be something for me to learn, and I've never seen an advanced technique just an advanced strategy or way of implementing it.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 19, 2010)

SensibleManiac said:


> This always raises a red flag. I'm not saying there are no secrets, but secret techniques... doubtful.



Not secret - just not obvious.



> I have been involved in the martial arts for over 17 years now and I haven't seen them.



I've been involved for nearly 2 years.  Already my senseis have shown me bunkai for the simplest blocks, punches, and kicks; blows my mind how many ways there are to apply a particular technique in a new way.  Some are utterly devastating, and also clearly real-life useful.  Not by me, at least not for a few decades yet.  But yeah, I see, I get it.  Not secret, but buried in the kata, hidden in plain view in the basics.

Yes, there are secrets.  They're not secret because anyone hid them and refused to reveal them; they're secret because until you are ready, you can't 'see' them.  It's not invisible because it's hidden, it's invisible because those who can't see it, can't see it.

Just my 2 cents as a beginner with very, very, good teachers.


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## SensibleManiac (Mar 19, 2010)

> Not secret - just not obvious.



Exactly, there is much about techniques that isn't obvious, in usage and strategy, but the term secret technique is nonsense.



> Not by me, at least not for a few decades yet. But yeah, I see, I get it. Not secret, but buried in the kata, hidden in plain view in the basics.



A few decades is a long time to get something, I would just say this. If you can develop the critical thinking skills involved in thinking for yourself and learning for yourself as well, (you might already be there) then you will be prepared to think about these things for yourself for life, for the truth is that learning is an ongoing process, when you stop learning you stop developing, but when someone has to rely on a teacher for decades to unfold the "secrets", then you have to ask, why?

I'm not saying having teachers for decades is wrong, I'm always seeking to learn more from them, it's just that I know longer depend on them.

I once read this useful quote, it went something like, if someone is teaching you fundamental basics, strategies,and principles, then you are on the right track, if they teach a style, then you are on the wrong track. Style is individual and what can work for you won't work for everyone, don't attempt to learn someone's style and don't teach yours to others. 

Understanding this is key.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 19, 2010)

SensibleManiac said:


> Exactly, there is much about techniques that isn't obvious, in usage and strategy, but the term secret technique is nonsense.



It's not nonsense, depending on how it is presented.  Mystery cults learned thousands of years ago that truths presented as secrets revealed were treasured, whereas if they were simply given out, they were not valued highly.  The 'truths' (whether they were true or not is another question) were generally not really secrets; but not something that would ordinarily occur to a person on their own.  Once 'revealed' in the an appropriate setting, time, and place, they took on a special meaning that rendered them more valuable to the recipient.

And in a more practical sense - something is a secret in a very real sense if the average person can't see it; even when it is in plain sight.  The act of opening one's eyes to what was there all along is very much as if a curtain is drawn back and a 'secret' revealed.  It's an appropriate term in this sense too.



> A few decades is a long time to get something, I would just say this. If you can develop the critical thinking skills involved in thinking for yourself and learning for yourself as well, (you might already be there) then you will be prepared to think about these things for yourself for life, for the truth is that learning is an ongoing process, when you stop learning you stop developing, but when someone has to rely on a teacher for decades to unfold the "secrets", then you have to ask, why?



Having seen a tiny portion of what can be done, testing and realizing that I cannot yet do it, I am content to practice over and over again until I can also do it as second nature.  I believe that this process of achieving mastery takes decades.  Not to see or visualize the technique, but to learn to properly apply it without thinking when necessary.

Don't get me wrong; I am not waiting at the knee of some mystical master to reveal to me the deep secrets of Isshin-Ryu.  My instructors are quite willing (and even eager) to share their insights in the form of bunkai, as much as I'm willing to be shown, as much as I can absorb.  I am not waiting on them to decide I am worthy of their knowledge; they offer it freely.  Rather, I am currently incapable of putting it to best use.  I recognize my limitations, but I also believe I can be much much better than I am if I practice diligently and have patience with myself.



> I'm not saying having teachers for decades is wrong, I'm always seeking to learn more from them, it's just that I know longer depend on them.



I don't know you or your teachers, and I cannot comment on what is right for you.  I see and appreciate the vast difference between my meager skills and those of my junior instructors who have 20+ years of training on me, and the even more vast difference between even their awesome skills and those of my head instructor, who has 15+ years on them.  And my head instructor regularly travels to learn more from his own remaining instructor.  I do not think I realistically have enough years left in my life to learn all I need to know to become as good as even my junior instructors, but that does not bother me.



> I once read this useful quote, it went something like, if someone is teaching you fundamental basics, strategies,and principles, then you are on the right track, if they teach a style, then you are on the wrong track.



I don't know what you mean by 'style' in this sense.



> Style is individual and what can work for you won't work for everyone, don't attempt to learn someone's style and don't teach yours to others.



There are many things in Isshin-Ryu which we are told are individual; a kamei stance, the size of a hangetsu step, the deepness of a heel-toe stance.  Each person develops their own way.  However, we do Isshin-Ryu kata because that's what we do.  If I wanted to do Shotokan or Wado-Ryu or whatever else, I'd leave and do that instead.  Is that what you're referring to by 'style'?



> Understanding this is key.



Clearly I'm missing something.  Could you explain?


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## Omar B (Mar 19, 2010)

Some good points raised all around.  I'm a big fan of the democratization of information so the idea of secret teachings and the like rub me the wrong way.  But maybe that's the freelance journalist in me.  Having said that, there certainly is a way to share information without stepping on the toes of Sensei, Sifu and Coaches the world over.  You can teach on tape, nor can you teach on the internet.

Have I not been the guy advocating a system where we have to post verifiable lineage and rank?  Not that it would help much, I've seen many high ranking jokers.

Here's an idea.  I'm a member of a band's message board where new members cannot start threads till they hit the 100 post mark unless it's an introductory thread which only allows mods to respond.  Might be an idea.


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## Blade96 (Mar 19, 2010)

Flying Crane said:


> Sometimes new people arrive on the scene and ask for information that they may not be ready for, they do not have the background to understand, or they are simply approaching the subject in the wrong way.  Maybe they would be better off getting the answer to certain types of questions from their own teachers, rather than from an internet discussion.



Good post and I hear ya. I dont ask for help much if at all (whoever knows me on forums know this) Once i asked about clarification of mae geri kekomi and another on the kata heian nidan. But I was learning those things at the time. and I knew the people I was asking. (i know those things now) Most of the time if I have a question, I scurry to my sensei.



Bill Mattocks said:


> Interesting analysis.
> 
> In no particular order...
> 
> *I often think I'm the only martial arts student here on MT who isn't some kind of master of something or other.*  The only black belt I have is in running my mouth.



Eh?

*raises hand*

what about me? I aint a master either........Yellow belt here.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 19, 2010)

Blade96 said:


> what about me? I aint a master either........Yellow belt here.



Sorry!  I sometimes get sidetracked by user names.  SuperCrippler and GaelicBallStomper and so on.  I'm just Bill.  I figured I'd change my name to WelshTrouserSnake when I make BB in about seven more years.


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## Blade96 (Mar 19, 2010)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Sorry!  I sometimes get sidetracked by user names.  SuperCrippler and GaelicBallStomper and so on.  I'm just Bill.  I figured I'd change my name to WelshTrouserSnake when I make BB in about seven more years.



Thats ok. I started shotokan september 2009, earned my first belt almost a month ago now. 

Actually - you may have been doing MA longer than i have. Which makes you closer to a master than me if i think about it.

Oh. and I too have a 10th dan in running my mouth. Especially when it comes to things in The Study. lol

btw Blade is not so hard to remember. Bill is an easy name too.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 19, 2010)

Blade96 said:


> Actually - you may have been doing MA longer than i have. Which makes you closer to a master than me if i think about it.



Yeah, but you're younger; I got stuff starting to fall off.  It's a race to FAIL for me.


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## dancingalone (Mar 19, 2010)

It seems to me that if we collectively decide to stop talking about TECHNIQUE, there wouldn't be much left to discuss that's worthwhile.  While discussions about history and lineage are interesting, due to their nature we'd be better off reading more scholarly sources than the typical MT post, no?  So that leaves gossip, politics, and religions.  Humph.

I recently started a thread over in the karate forum asking which type of block was the faster between the inside-out or the outside-in.  I certainly understand the real answer is "it depends" based on the attack, attacker, environment, etc., but I wanted to stimulate some discussion in the forum, if only on an abstracted level and if only to get a variety of opinions from whatever level of people choosing to respond.  IMO, the thread simply didn't get as much quality discussion as I would have liked, partially at least due to posters holding much the same opinion as in the OP of this thread.

I would respectfully suggest that forums like MT really wouldn't have much reason for existing if everyone wanted to speak in generalities and say "It's a secret, talk to your instructor."  Heck, just send everyone to The Study already since you'd be closing off an important area of discussion in my opinion, leaving little else of importance.  The technical discussions on internet forums serve a valuable service.  Even if it's BS, it still gets the student thinking and then he is free to seek clarification from his instructor.  And if there's even a grain of truth to the discussion, it can serve as a seed for the reader to improve.  

I think the concern Michael mentions is overstated.  It would be a rare, rare person indeed that would try to learn MA by reading forums like MT solely.  But using it as a resource judiciously can and should be possible for any reader out there, beginner or not.  There are published books out there for numerous martial arts.  Should you try to learn exclusively from the book?  Of course not.  But you can use it as a resource in conjunction with your in-person teacher.  I see MT as no different, even if the content is less focused.


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## Blade96 (Mar 19, 2010)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Yeah, but you're younger; I got stuff starting to fall off.  It's a race to FAIL for me.



Eh. don't worry if you have chest hair that's older than me =]

I bet you could still give people a run for their money in the ma that you do. 

and it still makes you better and more experienced than me.


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## Bruno@MT (Mar 20, 2010)

SensibleManiac said:


> I have to disagree with this strongly.
> 
> My problem with this is that when people try to control information in this manner it is usually a very bad sign. The reason they are afraid of sharing their info is that it will be exposed. Although from a marketing perspective it makes sense.
> 
> Think about it.



I've thought about it.
I understand your concerns, but this is just the way things work in traditional martial arts. Genbukan is not alone in this, it is par for the course, so to speak. History, lineage, etc are all things freely shared. I am not talking about secrecy for the sake of obscuring the art itself. I was talking about technique and strategy.

There are no traditional JMA where you can go to the sensei and talk about advanced stuff if you are a newbie. Before you get to that point, you have to have shown that you have mastered the basics. Looking at it from that angle, that is not a bad thing.

Also, part of the traditional secrecy thing comes from the times where spreading knowledge of the advanced stuff could impact your chances of survival. These days that is less of an issue but secrecy was built into many systems. Tenshin Shoten Katori Shinto Ryu for example still requires keppan, which is a blood oath in which you swear not to share secrets with outsiders or may the kami strike down on you.


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## Bruno@MT (Mar 20, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> It seems to me that if we collectively decide to stop talking about TECHNIQUE, there wouldn't be much left to discuss that's worthwhile.  While discussions about history and lineage are interesting, due to their nature we'd be better off reading more scholarly sources than the typical MT post, no?  So that leaves gossip, politics, and religions.  Humph.



Well, I don't know if you ever visit the traditional minjutsu forum, but there is not much discussion about actual technique. That is simply not done.
I cam to MT to learn as much as I could about the history of the art and Genbukan.

Having my doubts about anything 'ninja', I wanted to make sure that I was joining a legit traditional JMA and not someone's childhood fantasy. This is for me where the real value of MT is.

I learned a lot, and then I stuck around because I liked it here.
And let's be honest, is there much technical discussion going on in the non-ninjutsu forums?


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## Ironcrane (Mar 20, 2010)

I think that you have a point in the sharing of to much information to freely. But I think this is a factor that is exploited, rather then the actual cause. I think that the causes are a combination of - 

Commercialization: All the "Earn your blue belt in BJJ in 4 weeks, with this DVD." Or the "Beat any MMA guy with this DVD/Learn the secrets Martial Arts Masters, and the Military don't want you to know." And even the belt factories where you just pay your way through the ranks. They're just selling a product.

The (un)Martial Arts: The "Martial" in the Martial Arts, is downplayed a lot to make it more acceptable to the general public. Granted there are other reasons for MA training, and they are valid reasons, so get leeway from this. But the TKD school that wont allow any contact in their sparing, even when they're wearing full sparing gear, or the karate school that removed their iron body training, lose essential parts of their art.

Wolverine/Wise Master : Yes I do mean Wolverine from the X-Men. Everyone wants to be just like Wolverine. The ultimate badass, who can kill you five time before you hit the ground. Or the wise, knowitall Grandmaster, who constantly talks in vauge metaphores, and posses exotic, mystical knowledge. These are both trying to protray some image or hype. But in doing so, the substance of their art gets left behind.

I believe that a combination of these three things are the cause of the problems we've come across.


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## dancingalone (Mar 20, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> And let's be honest, is there much technical discussion going on in the non-ninjutsu forums?



There is SOME from time to time in the karate, taekwondo, kenpo, and general MA forums.  Not as much as I would like, but that's the nature of the beast.  Most people are more comfortable talking on less technical threads for whatever reason.


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## Makalakumu (Mar 20, 2010)

Lots of great opinions in this thread.  Here is something that I can add.

The nature of the internet has been the expansion and dissemination of information.  Everything eventually ends up on the net because you can't control people and we all want to talk about things...even secret things.  Look, we are getting to the point where even national security could be compromised.  Just the other day, the Pentagon targeted Wikileaks because of this.  If its not Wikileaks, it will be something else.

The point is that if the Pentagon can't keep "secrets" from the net, how much luck are people going to have in controlling the information about there martial arts?  That said, I say share it.  Share it all and share in openly so that we can all learn from each other.  We live in a new era of information where things that were unheard of ten years ago are now possible when it comes to information.  Therefore, I find the subject of this thread somewhat reactionary.  

Look at it this way, I came onto MT with a lot of experience in the martial arts and in many ways, I was totally clueless about things.  By talking to people and connecting with sincere practitioners from around the world, I've been able to take my art to a whole new level.  By reading recommended books and talking about various ideas, I have been able to write a book of my own that recasts the nature of my art and innovates a new way of teaching it.  

That wouldn't have been possible without free sharing of information on MT and on the internet in general.  And this is one of the reasons why the book that I wrote has never been written before.  

The bottom line is that I don't think we are going to be able to stop the flow of information about our art onto the net.  That is the new reality that we need to accept.  So, how are you going to deal with that?  What are you going to tell students?  How are you going to sift through this information?  Those are the questions that really matter, IMO.


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## jks9199 (Mar 20, 2010)

I haven't read the entire thread yet; my apologies if I'm repeating what others have said.

There is no substitute for direct, personal and in-person instruction and correction in the martial sciences.  I believe we can take that as a given.

But I think we can easily do someone a disservice when we simply say "talk to your teacher."  I saw the thread that inspired this, and was quite tempted to simply say that these seem the sorts of questions best asked of an instructor, or something along those lines.  

But asking the question isn't a problem, nor are some answers.  Especially if coupled with a referral to the person's teacher.  For example, one part of that post asked about moving in a different direction; apparently a key element of the technique in question is the direction of motion.  So, changing that changes the technique...  It also seemed that the poster had asked his instructor, and perhaps misunderstood the answer.  So, rather than a blunt "ask your teacher", and answer more like "you really need to discuss this with your teacher because when you move backwards, you've changed a key part of the technique" doesn't put too much out -- but does answer a question.  (And even sparked an interesting couple of posts...)

I'm not suggesting putting a lot of technical details out there.  After all, online, we have no way to know where a person's skill level is, and it's easy to put too much information or too many pieces out too early.  It's bad for a beginner to put too much emphasis on some details too early.  For example, you can't change the rhythm of that basic up block/punch sequence to the near simultaneous execution of an experienced student until they've developed the elements individually...

I guess what I'm saying is that there is a way to manage to discuss some of these things, without giving out too much, and still making it clear that the best source is almost always one's teacher.


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## harlan (Mar 20, 2010)

To the OP, I concur.

I've never been one of those self-appointed 'martial arts watchdogs'. The type of person that feels the need to expose frauds or 'do something' when faced with less than stellar martial artists promoting themselves. The internet is filled with videos of beginners sharing their 'winning' performances, and I don't see any need to be other than supportive. Everybody starts somewhere. The kids, the fat men and middle-aged women all looking to add something to their lives...I see it as part of their journey and one can't help but be happy for them. Heck, having recently cringed at videos of myself, who am I to judge anyway?

But on occasion, one realizes that the internet, and other media, also has the effect of validating bad martial arts. Of promoting hucksters, spreading images of mediocre performances and thereby lowering the bar as far as the public is concerned.



Flying Crane said:


> My comments here were sparked by another thread, I felt it might be appropriate to split away and focus on this particular topic.
> 
> We have seen many times in the threads here, members lament the state of the martial arts today.  Lots of poor instructors, people doing things that they don't really understand, people trying to be teachers before they are ready, people fooling themselves into believing they are more skilled and more knowledgeable than they really are.  It seems like the quality of the arts is crumbling before our very eyes.
> 
> ...


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## SensibleManiac (Mar 20, 2010)

> It's not nonsense, depending on how it is presented. Mystery cults learned thousands of years ago that truths presented as secrets revealed were treasured, whereas if they were simply given out, they were not valued highly. *The 'truths' (whether they were true or not is another question)* were generally not really secrets; but not something that would ordinarily occur to a person on their own. Once 'revealed' in the an appropriate setting, time, and place, they took on a special meaning that rendered them more valuable to the recipient.



This is precisely the problem, these "cults" were not about actual truth.
It is time to move away from this way of thinking if our understanding is to evolve and grow.



> And in a more practical sense - something is a secret in a very real sense if the average person can't see it; even when it is in plain sight. The act of opening one's eyes to what was there all along is very much as if a curtain is drawn back and a 'secret' revealed. It's an appropriate term in this sense too.



This is what I agree with, This notion of secrets is worthwhile because these "secrets" are so because one just lacks the understanding at that time. The strategies and ways of implementation of techniques can be considered secrets from those who don't understand them, but they are only further manifestations of the basics, that is to say, what is most used.

Any other idea refering to secrets or advanced techniques is just nonsense. In that they have never been seen, not just by myself but any other honest martial artist I've met. Now either I haven't met any truly advanced martial artists or someone is lying about advanced techniques. These are the only possible answers.





> Having seen a tiny portion of what can be done, testing and realizing that I cannot yet do it, I am content to practice over and over again until I can also do it as second nature. I believe that this process of achieving mastery takes decades. Not to see or visualize the technique, but to learn to properly apply it without thinking when necessary.



This is fine, it just means that you haven't put in the effort and time YET, to master these skills, the part on mastery taking decades I'm a little weary of, yes it can take a while to master fundamentals, but decades? I suppose it depends on how often one trains as well as other variables.



> Don't get me wrong; I am not waiting at the knee of some mystical master to reveal to me the deep secrets of Isshin-Ryu. My instructors are quite willing (and even eager) to share their insights in the form of bunkai, as much as I'm willing to be shown, as much as I can absorb. I am not waiting on them to decide I am worthy of their knowledge; they offer it freely. Rather, I am currently incapable of putting it to best use. I recognize my limitations, but I also believe I can be much much better than I am if I practice diligently and have patience with myself.



It's obvious that this is a healthy perspective.



> I don't know you or your teachers, and I cannot comment on what is right for you. I see and appreciate the vast difference between my meager skills and those of my junior instructors who have 20+ years of training on me, and the even more vast difference between even their awesome skills and those of my head instructor, who has 15+ years on them. And my head instructor regularly travels to learn more from his own remaining instructor. I do not think I realistically have enough years left in my life to learn all I need to know to become as good as even my junior instructors, but that does not bother me.



I always keep my sources of information varied and learn from many teachers, I sometimes even inadvertently learn something from people who know less than me, the point being that we need to keep an open perspective on the sources of information we learn from. This will help develop further, any school that discourages sharing of ideas with others brings up a red flag, what are they really afraid of?




> I once read this useful quote, it went something like, if someone is teaching you fundamental basics, strategies,and principles, then you are on the right track, if they teach a style, then you are on the wrong track.
> 
> I don't know what you mean by 'style' in this sense.



This throw works best like so... really? What if the person executing the throw is throwing someone alot taller than them? What if they are throwing someone alot shorter than them? What if they are the same height? What if the instructor is unusually strong? What if the student is unusually weak?
What if one is unusually fast and the other isn't?
Don't all these factors play some role in style, I've known some extemely talented martial artists who could pull off some techniques in ways that I simply could not and I've found that as I get older I do certain techniques differently than I used to and some I don't do at all anymore, this all comes down to style. I can still teach someone those techniques, but to tell them they aren't useful because of my limitations are appeals to style.

Not everything will work for everyone depending on many variations. This all applies to style.




> *There are many things in Isshin-Ryu which we are told are individual; a kamei stance, the size of a hangetsu step, the deepness of a heel-toe stance. Each person develops their own way.* However, we do Isshin-Ryu kata because that's what we do. If I wanted to do Shotokan or Wado-Ryu or whatever else, I'd leave and do that instead. Is that what you're referring to by 'style'?



By style I'm not refering to martial art styles, but what works for an individual as an individual is a stylistic difference.



> Clearly I'm missing something. Could you explain



I hope I have clarified what I meant.

On to Bruno,


> I've thought about it.
> I understand your concerns, but this is just the way things work in traditional martial arts. Genbukan is not alone in this, it is par for the course, so to speak. History, lineage, etc are all things freely shared. I am not talking about secrecy for the sake of obscuring the art itself. I was talking about technique and strategy.



I know the Genbukan is no alone in this and have some limited experience with the art from years ago, secrecy in techniques doesn't work, as there is nothing secret in techniques, this isn't an attack on anyone or any traditional martial art, just on the fact that this doesn't work, not in traditional martial arts or anywhere else, the idea of keeping a technique secret is nonsense for the reason that the basics are always the same. In other words, if I told you a secret technique is to punch by standing on one foot, extend your pinky and blow on your fist, citing this as a secret technique it would be nonsense. The scientific principles behind generating force are ALWAYS the same, therefore anything thatmoves away from these basic scientific principles is not advanced but nonsense. These are just the facts, the only thing that can be advanced is how the basics are applied. So the punch is the same as a basic punch, it's just the strategy and implementation that can be advanced. the advanced practitioner is just faster or more effective with it, not knowing of secret techniques, that the beginner doesn't know yet.




> There are no traditional JMA where you can go to the sensei and talk about advanced stuff if you are a newbie. Before you get to that point, you have to have shown that you have mastered the basics. Looking at it from that angle, that is not a bad thing.



This is a bad thing because it does not exist, you would merely be discussing the basics from your limited undertstanding, there isn't such thing as this advanced "stuff".

If you teach a child the alphabet, it's impossible for him to ask you about reading a university level book, his limitation won't allow him to understand it. He'll still be trying to make out the letters. And will most likely still want to read a book with pretty pictures before moving onto an advanced level book. It's not like the advanced level book contains secrets that can only be discussed in secret by higher ranking people, anyone who can read at a certain level can understand the book. This information can be shared by whoever pleases. Do you understand the logic, why hide anything? If they aren't hiding something for a reason?



> Also, part of the traditional secrecy thing comes from the times where spreading knowledge of the advanced stuff could impact your chances of survival. These days that is less of an issue but secrecy was built into many systems. Tenshin Shoten Katori Shinto Ryu for example still requires keppan, which is a blood oath in which you swear not to share secrets with outsiders or may the kami strike down on you.



Yes and I'm saying that to healthy individuals walking around today that this is nonsense, and simply isn't useful.



> Well, I don't know if you ever visit the traditional minjutsu forum, but there is not much discussion about actual technique. That is simply not done.



And why not? I think we all know the answer.



> I think that you have a point in the sharing of to much information to freely. But I think this is a factor that is exploited, rather then the actual cause. I think that the causes are a combination of -



There is no such thing of sharing too much information too freely, why would there be? In this context. Think about it, every human being on this earth has the right to think don't they? Shouldn't they have the right to an education? Doesn't that make the world a better place or does keeping people in the dark work better? It depends on your motives. Shouldn't everyone have access to information freely, isn't that a good thing. That's what the internet is about isn't it? How can there be too much information?
This doesn't make any sense unless someone has ulterior motives.  



> Commercialization: All the "Earn your blue belt in BJJ in 4 weeks, with this DVD." Or the "Beat any MMA guy with this DVD/Learn the secrets Martial Arts Masters, and the Military don't want you to know." And even the belt factories where you just pay your way through the ranks. They're just selling a product.



The first example is only a myth, the second is a marketing ploy. Everyone who is charging for martial arts instruction is either selling a product or a service.



> Granted there are other reasons for MA training,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Really, what are they? I have yet to see any of these "reasons" as valid.



> Wolverine/Wise Master : Yes I do mean Wolverine from the X-Men. Everyone wants to be just like Wolverine. The ultimate badass, who can kill you five time before you hit the ground. Or the wise, knowitall Grandmaster, who constantly talks in vauge metaphores, and posses exotic, mystical knowledge. These are both trying to protray some image or hype. But in doing so, the substance of their art gets left behind.



Agreed.



> I believe that a combination of these three things are the cause of the problems we've come across.



You would have to elaborate on these problems, the only one I clearly see is the marketing hype of people trying to sell a product or service.

Maunakumu, if I could thank you twice for your post I would!



> The bottom line is that I don't think we are going to be able to stop the flow of information about our art onto the net. That is the new reality that we need to accept. So, how are you going to deal with that? What are you going to tell students? How are you going to sift through this information? Those are the questions that really matter, IMO.



Very useful and thought provoking!


I just want to add, the point of my post is to get people thinking about this, not to berate or insult anyone, I think we"re all too intelligent for that and just want to see us putting that intelligence to good use.

I do agree that people can get ahead of themselves with too much info, they might want to learn to run before they can walk, but that is hardly a threat to the truth or anyone who wants to impart the truth, that can only threaten those who are selling snake oil.


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## Makalakumu (Mar 20, 2010)

Interesting comments, Sensiblemaniac.  This problem is something we struggle with in the education field.  Technology has changed our world so fast that most people have no idea what the "rules" are any more.  We have reactionaries trying to put the genie back in the bottle, but these guys are doomed to failure.  It is much better to see the wave coming paddle your *** off in order to catch it.  

As an education professional, I can honestly say that you must understand how the world has changed or you are doing your students a disservice.  We need to talk about the ways we access information about our arts and we need to get as much good information out there as possible.  If we hold back, we let the BS artists put out their garbage and that is all people are going to see.

So here is my suggestion, people put your arts out there.  Everything.  It will get out there eventually, so why not control it by putting it out with forethought and purpose?  Be prepared for criticism and trust in yourself.  At the same time, be open and learn something.  If we combine the powers of the internet with good teaching, we have the potential to grow our arts faster then we ever thought possible.

Every revolution slays some sacred cows.  Make yourself a hamburger and enjoy because you can't control it, you can't make it go away, and you can't ignore it.  Anyone want cheese on their burgers?


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## Blade96 (Mar 20, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> There is SOME from time to time in the karate, taekwondo, kenpo, and general MA forums. * Not as much as I would like,* but that's the nature of the beast.  Most people are more comfortable talking on less technical threads for whatever reason.



i'd talk more but hardly anyone here is shotokan.....lots of times i feel like the only one (though i know I'm not there are maybe 2 others)


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 20, 2010)

SensibleManiac said:


> This is precisely the problem, these "cults" were not about actual truth.
> It is time to move away from this way of thinking if our understanding is to evolve and grow.



Actually, we have no way of knowing what was or was not truthful about the various mystery cults.  It's hard to be dismissive about something we don't know much about.



> This is what I agree with, This notion of secrets is worthwhile because these "secrets" are so because one just lacks the understanding at that time. The strategies and ways of implementation of techniques can be considered secrets from those who don't understand them, but they are only further manifestations of the basics, that is to say, what is most used.



I think we agree on this completely.



> Any other idea refering to secrets or advanced techniques is just nonsense. In that they have never been seen, not just by myself but any other honest martial artist I've met. Now either I haven't met any truly advanced martial artists or someone is lying about advanced techniques. These are the only possible answers.



No, there's another possibility.   You could have met advanced martial artists who didn't teach you what they held as 'secrets'.  Granted if you are speaking of instructors who claimed to be giving you secrets that weren't, then yeah.



> This is fine, it just means that you haven't put in the effort and time YET, to master these skills, the part on mastery taking decades I'm a little weary of, yes it can take a while to master fundamentals, but decades? I suppose it depends on how often one trains as well as other variables.



Yes, decades.  I don't for a moment believe that even gifted martial arts students can learn and apply the deeper aspects of martial arts in a few short years.  I've seen too much of those who have a deep understanding of my own style, and the massive differences between a (for example) 5th-dan and 8th-dan.  They're both so far beyond me, it's staggering.  But there's still a massive difference between them, too.  It's not just experience, it's technique.  It's the same moves; blocks, punches, kicks.  But the applications are amazing.  And apparently, what I'm told by those who know is true; it takes decades to master.  I have to believe the evidence of my own eyes.



> By style I'm not refering to martial art styles, but what works for an individual as an individual is a stylistic difference.



OK, got it.



> I hope I have clarified what I meant.



Yep!


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## dancingalone (Mar 20, 2010)

Blade96 said:


> i'd talk more but hardly anyone here is shotokan.....lots of times i feel like the only one (though i know I'm not there are maybe 2 others)



Talk away if you'd like.  Many of us are very familiar with Shotokan technique although we may not consider it our style.  It is one of the most documented karate systems after all, and there are MANY derivatives owing at least some part to it.  People who practice "classic" TKD or Tang Soo Do can often participate meaningfully in technical conversations with Shotokan karate-ka.


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## Carol (Mar 20, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Talk away if you'd like. Many of us are very familiar with Shotokan technique although we may not consider it our style. It is one of the most documented karate systems after all, and there are MANY derivatives owing at least some part to it. People who practice "classic" TKD or Tang Soo Do can often participate meaningfully in technical conversations with Shotokan karate-ka.


 
Absolutely. Please talk away.  There are Shotokan influences in what I do, I even know some of the forms.


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## Blade96 (Mar 21, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Talk away if you'd like.  Many of us are very familiar with Shotokan technique although we may not consider it our style.  It is one of the most documented karate systems after all, and there are MANY derivatives owing at least some part to it.  People who practice "classic" TKD or Tang Soo Do can often participate meaningfully in technical conversations with Shotokan karate-ka.





Carol said:


> Absolutely. Please talk away.  There are Shotokan influences in what I do, I even know some of the forms.



Really? i can? that's cool then, thanks


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## MJS (Mar 22, 2010)

Ok, now that I have some free time, I can actually type out a reply without getting sidetracked. 

Now, as its been said in the OP, this thread was started, because of comments that were made in another thread in the Kenpo section. Basically, someone can on, asked questions about certain techniques. Some gave replies directly related to the techs and others said that it was best to ask your teacher, and not to learn from the net.

Here are my thoughts: IMHO, I think that the internet is a wonderful thing. You can get online and find info on just about anything you want. Venues such as discussion boards, such as Martial Talk, allow people to chat about a wide range of topics. I've asked questions about arts that I know nothing or little about, as well as asked for thoughts/opinions of others, who train in the same arts as I do. I've also had the chance to talk on the phone, and actually meet one MT member, while he was in the area on a business trip. 

Of course, the internet has its dark side. People or should I say fakes and frauds, tend to flock to the net, hiding behind their keyboard, spewing BS, as if they really know what they're talking about. But of course, that is why people need to use their head, take things with a grain of salt, and much like in RL, take those opinions, process them, and do whats best.

Some will say, "Why not ask your teacher these questions rather than ask online?" If everyone did that, then places like this, would not exist, IMO. I suppose a forum could be viewed similar to a seminar. Hell, I've gone to seminars, and asked questions of people who're not my teachers. There're people on here, who say to ask your teacher, yet they travel all over the world, giving seminars, to people that're not their students. So, if you want to get technical about it, those people are contradicting themselves. So its ok to ask in a live setting, but not ok to ask those same questions online? 

Speaking for myself, but I try to never make any info that I give, to come across as if its the end all, be all of info, that what I say is gospel, because its not....its a simple opinion, and in many cases, I"ll preface something I say with "IMO" again, to show that its just MY opinion, nothing more. 

I've said in many posts, that I'm not a fan of learning via dvd, tape, book, distance learning, etc. because IMO (see there it is..lol) I do not feel as if thats the best way to learn. However, a dvd is a great reference tool. I've watched many Arnis tapes of the late GM Remy Presas. I've watched and studied those tapes, and often have noticed slight differences in what he does. So I'll mention that to my teachers and we'll go over it. Of course, I have a BB rank in Arnis, been training in it for many years, train with people who've spent huge amounts of time with the man, so again, I'm using it as a ref., nothing more. So, should people use forums such as this to learn from? IMO, no because its on the same level as the dvds. But....I do feel that asking questions, looking for feedback from others, etc., is fine. Last time I checked, we're all different from each other. We're not robots. I dont move like my teacher, he doesnt move like me. I dont move like Larry Tatum. So, its very possible that everyone does a tech., slightly different. So, I've come on here, listed a tech., and asked how others do it and why. I've worked with people at seminars and camps, people I've never met in my life, and we'll do the same thing, yet slightly different. I've picked up new ways to do things. Its a friendly exchange of info. IMO, its good to get differing opinions, from other sources other than your teacher.

I havent read every post here, but I did catch a few that mentioned 'secret techs' or things that're just for students of a given art. Personally, I tend to avoid words like secret, as they imply that there is some magical tech. out there that is unbeatable. Perhaps a better choice of wording, is that there're things out there that will only make sense to students of that particualr art, thus to discuss them with someone outside of that art, will be fruitless, because that outsider will have no clue as to whats being discussed. Of course, that also leads to misunderstandings because there're some things that are just too difficult to talk about online, but easier to show. 

Enough rambling from me. I told the OP that I would comment, and I did. 

To Flying Crane,

Mike,

I hope that you didn't take anything I said in that other thread, the wrong way.  You and I have had many great discussions on here, and I do look forward to your input. For myself, I didn't take the person in that other thread, as trying to learn via Martial Talk, but just asking questions. Perhaps he just wanted other opinions. Of course, if he left, as he said he was going to, then we'll never know. 

Anyways, I hope my above post shed a little light on my thoughts of the pros and cons of discussion forums.


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## MJS (Mar 22, 2010)

Just wanted to add another part in.  Many times people do not have constant contact with Seniors in a given art.  For myself, I only had the chance to meet and train with Remy Presas a few times, before he passed.  So, in turn, I do my best to train with people who spent alot of time with the man, and fortunately, I have one of those people within walking distance of my home. 

There are people who spent hours daily and/or weekly, with GM Ed Parker.  So, IMO, its only natural for people to come on and ask questions of those people.  So, when you have people saying to those with the questions, "Go ask your teacher!", how does that look to that person?  

I recall having a Senior Corner in the Kenpo section here.  Sadly it wasn't used like it should have been.  These people, unfortunately, will not be around forever.  Better take as much knowledge as they're willing to give, before they're gone.

Of course there are also high ranking people who do nothing more than lurk or use the forum to promote their own events/functions, and never contribute any more.  I have to ask, why?  It could be because those people are tired of the online pissing matches.  Case in point...Dale Seago.  He's a high ranking, very knowledgeable person in the Bujinkan.  He was active on this forum as well as MAP.  However, due to the trolls, and people from other arts, coming on, saying that this sucks, that sucks, this or that wont work in 'the cage', blah, blah, blah, that he basically left.  You'll see him from time to time on here, but here ya go....a good guy, lots of knoledge, and doesnt post because of the actions of some.  Its sad.  For the record, no, this wasn't a shot at Dale.  It was a shot at the jerks who ruin the chance for others to learn from the man.  Think about it....I live in CT....Dale lives in CA.  If I were training in the Bujinkan, I for one, would love to have to chance to pick up something, anything, even written words, from someone who has the skill and knowledge.  Could that same knowledge be gained from your current teacher?  Possibly, but again, its another opinion.

Thats all, sorry for another rant.


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## wushuguy (Mar 22, 2010)

This is a great topic. And yes, very reasonable to discuss what responsibilities one should be aware of when sharing info freely on the net. from my observation, most info shareable should be and is things that are general to martial arts and style, such as sharing youtube vids of what a style looks like, between practitioners of a style, their experiences about using it or how they learned something a little different between sifus, or where to get proper information on a subject, etc. these are good for everyone, rated "G" or "PG" to those without martial arts experience or limited experience. 

then there are topics that are more indepth, intellectual and requires a bit more experience and understanding to be useful for those who read the post. if one who doesn't understand reads it, misunderstanding can happen and perhaps a wrong practice can occur or the information misused. these kinds of topics should only be discussed and monitored perhaps only letting those who pass "NC-17" or "R" rating to be allowed to view or reply, similar to a closed community, but with good reason because the topics and info shared can easily be misused by those with a bit of understanding but not enough depth, and we don't know who is reading online or what they need the info for, like if someone posts "please teach me ultimate death move hadoken uppercut" and we freely proceed to explain to them the mechanics of it in detail... maybe they use it to do harm, or maybe they practice it without having the proper foundation first and end up hurting themselves... well that's irresponsible!

so some posts like, ask your teacher, etc. that's very valid in my opinion, as their teacher should know their student's ability and teach them according to that natural progression. 

so when we reply to posts, it's really good to think about whether we share our experience or knowledge or point people to a resource that will help them, or if we just keep our mouths shut.


sometimes people who ask questions, really don't know what they're asking anyway... like wise with our answers. so anything on a public forum should be taken with a grain of salt.


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## jks9199 (Mar 22, 2010)

Regarding "secret techniques" or "secret teachings."

Every art has a few of these; some arts have lots.  There are a few things in my art which are not taught outside the system.  I think that's reasonable; we've got to have a couple of things that are "ours" just like a restaurant may have a special dish or two, or a theme park may have a particular rollercoaster or ride.  Most of those, in my art, you won't know about for a while.  Very simply, I don't talk about them unless you've trained with me for a while.

But there are also lessons from one teacher to particular students; sometimes these overlap with the broader secrets, sometimes they don't.  There are several principles that I simply don't share outside my own class.  My teacher taught them to me after many years of training, and hasn't given me permission to teach them more broadly.  If you don't have that heritage, you don't get the lesson.  And -- in all honesty -- it wouldn't make sense to you without the underlying training.

Neither sort of teaching is stuff that I would put out over the web...  After all, it's "secret!"


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## Flying Crane (Mar 22, 2010)

Lots of good comments, it's been an interesting read.  Thanks for jumping in, everyone.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 22, 2010)

MJS said:


> To Flying Crane,
> 
> Mike,
> 
> I hope that you didn't take anything I said in that other thread, the wrong way.


 
never a doubt.  We've been talking long enough here that I know where you stand, and nothing you said was taken personally.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 22, 2010)

Blindside said:


> If the asker doesn't have an instructor he is going to have a poor form no matter what how much or how little information is put out there.


 
my post was more about the beginner who has an instructor, and is looking for technical information online.  He's got an instructor, he's too new to be considering other sources yet, so he really should be getting the answers from his instructor.

If he doesn't have an instructor and is a newbie, he'll get nothing from an online technical discussion. 



> Maybe I was the only person to ever have two different instructors do things differently in the same art, BUT since its happened to me in three different arts with at least 6 different instructors, I'm a bit skeptical about that. Doing something one way and then learning another didn't cripple my advancement in that art, it gave me a broader background about the use of the art.


 
When you have an instructor, or several instructors with whom you train on a regular basis, that creates a different situation.  What happens while you train with your instructor(s) is a whole different topic and is not what I am getting at.

I'm looking at the beginner who has very little experience with the system, yet he has an instructor, but goes online for explanations.  At his beginning level of development, that is when he does not need potentially conflicting information gathered from a variety of internet sources.  That information is better left to when he is more experienced.  As a beginner, getting this type of informtation thru a source like the internet, is inappropriate, in my opinion.



> I don't believe that providing good information damages a person from receiving other good information.


 
How do you know it's good information?  The beginner is in no position to judge that, and he doesn't even know the internet contributors who are giving him the info.  He has not idea if it's trustworthy.

A beginner should simply get this kind of technical info from his instructor.  Later, there will be opportunities to consider what others might say, but not as a beginner.  He's not ready for the variety and variation yet.


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## harlan (Mar 22, 2010)

Good post. My own experience as a beginner was to go to the internet to ask questions, and in time I've decided that it was not beneficial (for me) to do so. As a beginner, there is no base of knowledge and even as a critical thinker, no 'filters' to assess the usefulness of information. And then again, there are the hucksters, opportunists, and just plain nasties...hard for the beginner to tell the difference.


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## dancingalone (Mar 22, 2010)

> How do you know it's good information? The beginner is in no position to judge that, and he doesn't even know the internet contributors who are giving him the info. He has not idea if it's trustworthy.



Dunno about the ninjutsu forum brought up by Bruno, but on the forums I participate on here, I don't see that happening.  There's enough of a critical mass here at MT where we had an assortment of instructors and serious students participating.  I don't think it's likely at all that someone could get away with giving out bad information without being challenged or questioned (in a friendly fashion) by someone else.  At the very least a request for clarification would be made.  I know this because I myself have 'corrected' others or expressed a different line of thought when I felt it was necessary.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 22, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Dunno about the ninjutsu forum brought up by Bruno, but on the forums I participate on here, I don't see that happening. There's enough of a critical mass here at MT where we had an assortment of instructors and serious students participating. I don't think it's likely at all that someone could get away with giving out bad information without being challenged or questioned (in a friendly fashion) by someone else. At the very least a request for clarification would be made. I know this because I myself have 'corrected' others or expressed a different line of thought when I felt it was necessary.


 
well, I've seen various people here who will remain unnamed, post all kinds of info that gives you the impression that they know what they are talking about.

Then, I've found these same people's video postings on Youtube, and they are showing a marked lack of skill, in spite of impressive rank. It makes me realize that a whole lot of people who talk the talk really don't understand it themselves. I'd never take advice from these folks...


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## Flying Crane (Mar 22, 2010)

jks9199 said:


> I haven't read the entire thread yet; my apologies if I'm repeating what others have said.
> 
> There is no substitute for direct, personal and in-person instruction and correction in the martial sciences. I believe we can take that as a given.
> 
> ...


 
excellent comments, very well said, thank you.  You've really sort of expressed my point in a little more concise manner.

My point is not to stifle or control discussion.  Rather, it's simply recognizing when discussion of certain kinds of information is inappropriate for this particular type of venue, and directing the beginner to a better source under the circumstances.  Namely, his instructor.


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## dancingalone (Mar 22, 2010)

Flying Crane said:


> well, I've seen various people here who will remain unnamed, post all kinds of info that gives you the impression that they know what they are talking about.
> 
> Then, I've found these same people's video postings on Youtube, and they are showing a marked lack of skill, in spite of empressive rank.  It makes me realize that a whole lot of people who talk the talk really don't understand it themselves.  I'd never take advice from these folks...




Well, I have no idea who you're talking about.  Most everyone who posts in the karate or TKD forums is credible enough IMO.  I don't think anyone there is pretending to be some deadly killer when they are not.  

But to address your point, possibly we have a case of the coach vs. the practitioner.  Possible the writer knows his martial art very well but he no longer practices the MA to a high level due to injury, fitness, whatever.  In that situation, I still think his information on a forum like MT might be very useful to the right person.

Now if you're talking about a complete charlatan, I would wonder how he could write informative, TECHNICAL posts if he knew nothing at all about the martial art itself.  It's one thing to bluster BS about who taught you and what deadly arts you know.  It's quite another to participate on a truly technical thread where you talk about tangible cause and effect and what makes a certain movement superior to another one.  The blowhards and the keyboard warriors rarely post on this type of thread because inevitably their words will 'out' what they really are.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 22, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Now if you're talking about a complete charlatan, I would wonder how he could write informative, TECHNICAL posts if he knew nothing at all about the martial art itself. It's one thing to bluster BS about who taught you and what deadly arts you know. It's quite another to participate on a truly technical thread where you talk about tangible cause and effect and what makes a certain movement superior to another one. The blowhards and the keyboard warriors rarely post on this type of thread because inevitably their words will 'out' what they really are.


 
No, I don't think these people are deliberately being charlatans. I think they actually believe that they've got it together. But in my opinion, they are missing a lot of things. I don't want to point fingers at anyone in particular because that could ignite a firestorm and I'm not interested in doing that. I'm only making my own judgement of what I see, and comparing it to what these same people have said. Maybe other people would look at the same videos and decide the person is pretty good. I guess we are talking about opinions, and I form mine based on criteria developed from my own training. Others form their own criteria and judge accordingly.

People can over-intellectualize things and talk about technical details and give the impression that they are very knowledgeable. Maybe on a purly academic level they might be considered knowledgeable. But they have little idea how to apply the material and put it into practice. That alone makes me question the academic level of information that they are spouting, and their overall capability.

My point is just that I think you need to be very cautious about accepting advice from someone on the internet, when you haven't even met them.  On the internet, everyone's an expert.  In reality, very few of them can stand up to the scrutiny.  A beginner is in less of a position to make that judgement, or recognize nonsense when they see it.


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## dancingalone (Mar 22, 2010)

Flying Crane said:


> People can over-intellectualize things and talk about technical details and give the impression that they are very knowledgeable. Maybe on a purly academic level they might be considered knowledgeable. But they have little idea how to apply the material and put it into practice. That alone makes me question the academic level of information that they are spouting, and their overall capability.



Many here will remember Exile, a (former?) moderator, who was very active in the TKD forums as it was his art.  Exile is very smart and very articulate, suitable qualities for his day job, I suppose, and he was visibly interested in technical discussions on the board, especially those to do with kata bunkai.  His main detractor on the forum, now banned , derided Exile's opinions on several occasions on the basis of his junior rank: 1st dan, saying he really didn't practice TKD at a high enough level to be an authority on what is right or wrong.

I don't think Exile would be upset with me for using him as an example.  First while I believe Exile is probably an excellent martial artist since he's clearly goal-driven and an achiever, I do think he faces some challenges as a latecomer in life to MA.  It's tough to get better and better physically as we age, you know?  But he might be a fair example of someone who can contribute on a greater level through writing and teaching than as a actual practitioner.  And you know what, I would happily read, digest and mull over anything he wrote any time, because there just might be something in it that can help me and my students.



> My point is just that I think you need to be very cautious about accepting advice from someone on the internet, when you haven't even met them.  On the internet, everyone's an expert.  In reality, very few of them can stand up to the scrutiny.  A beginner is in less of a position to make that judgement, or recognize nonsense when they see it.


Well, sure.  That goes without saying.  Caveat emptor and all that.  But I think it's an empty fear.  No one with any common sense would read an anonymous post on the Internet and then immediately try to follow it verbatim as a sole source of learning.  They would read it as an adjunct to their in-person studies, and hopefully derive some meager benefit.

Those without common sense would likely find themselves in trouble anyway without the musings on MT acting as a catalyst.   Think about innocent other books like chemistry textbooks or even history books.  They can be used for good or bad - it's all up to the reader.  A little bit of knowledge is dangerous without context, whether it is in chemistry or in martial arts.  IMO, it's a fruitless quest to try to lock up any 'dangerous' bits.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 22, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> IMO, it's a fruitless quest to try to lock up any 'dangerous' bits.


 
I remember Exile well, and I wish he was still here.

I never said we should try and lock up the "dangerous" bits. I only said that some information is poorly shared in the internet venue. This info is best shared between teacher and student, and it's a valid position to take, to tell this to a beginner who is asking certain types of questions.

What happened over in the Kenpo section that sparked this thread, was the OP was offended by the suggestion.  A couple of us pointed out that he should get the answers to certain questions from his instructor.  He was indignant and seems to have left the forum altogether, simply because we made that suggestion instead of giving the answers that he apparently felt he had a right to.  weird.


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## dancingalone (Mar 22, 2010)

Flying Crane said:


> What happened over in the Kenpo section that sparked this thread, was the OP was offended by the suggestion.  A couple of us pointed out that he should get the answers to certain questions from his instructor.  He was indignant and seems to have left the forum altogether, simply because we made that suggestion instead of giving the answers that he apparently felt he had a right to.  weird.



Ah, I found the thread.  I can see both sides.  He did ask fairly specific questions which would indicate he was after a certain type of discussion, whether to confirm his own thoughts and beliefs or just to receive a core dump of the information sought.  I can understand your perspective, but I could see why he might find your replies pedantic.  Sounds like he knew what he was looking for, yet you wanted to engage him as a beginner.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 22, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Ah, I found the thread. I can see both sides. He did ask fairly specific questions which would indicate he was after a certain type of discussion, whether to confirm his own thoughts and beliefs or just to receive a core dump of the information sought. I can understand your perspective, but I could see why he might find your replies pedantic. Sounds like he knew what he was looking for, yet you wanted to engage him as a beginner.


 
well, he did state that he's only been doing kenpo for about six months.  To me, that's a beginner in kenpo.

He also apparently has trained other arts for over a decade.  that may or may not be an asset in learning kenpo.  It may or may not be a hindrance in learning kenpo.  So I don't automatically assume he has an advantage.

He was a beginner in kenpo, asking for technical guidance in certain portions of the curriculum.

Either way, I found his reaction a bit overblown.  He seems to be really offended that we made the suggestion.  Enough so to leave the forums altogther.  I dunno.  Seems like an entitlement mentality, to me.  If he doesn't like our suggestion, he can ignore it.  But he chose to leave instead.


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## Carol (Mar 22, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Ah, I found the thread. I can see both sides. He did ask fairly specific questions which would indicate he was after a certain type of discussion, whether to confirm his own thoughts and beliefs or just to receive a core dump of the information sought. I can understand your perspective, but I could see why he might find your replies pedantic. Sounds like he knew what he was looking for, yet you wanted to engage him as a beginner.


 
At the same time, had he asked to dig in to one purple belt tech, I don't think anyone would have batted an eye. It may have been the way he went about it, maybe even some language differences too. I'm quite functional in my second language (Spanish) but I know I don't come across as smoothly or as gracefully as I would prefer. Heck, I don't always come across as smooth or graceful in English for that matter. :lol:


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## MattJ (Mar 23, 2010)

Apologies for jumping into this late, I just saw it. 

FC - 



> When someone is a beginner in an art and they come to the forums and start asking questions about the technical delivery of certain techniques, I feel they are attempting to discuss something that is inappropriate to this venue. Not because it is a secret, or forbidden or something. Rather, this kind of topic needs hands-on interaction to understand, and they should be getting these answers directly from their teachers.


 
I can understand that, and agree to a certain point. But a forum _is_ a text-based medium to communicate - no physical anything is going to happen here. Disallowing on-topic questions because one _perceives_ that the questioner _may not_ be technically adept enough to understand the answer is overstepping, IMHO. Kind of voids the whole purpose for a martial-arts forum. 



> Many arts are heavily splintered, and different lineages do things differently. If they start getting advice online from people across different lineages, they will end up with a mish-mash of information that lacks coherence and cohesiveness, and will give them more troubles than they had before they asked the question. They end up with a bunch of half-understood concepts and fool themselves into thinking they know more than they do. And this interferes with their martial training and development.


 
I see that type of opinion as somewhat condescending. How do you know what the purpose of the question is? How do you know the person won't understand? I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt, unless they really demonstrate otherwise.



> But I think offering this kind of technical information, under these circumstances, has a great potential to do more harm than good. In my opinion, the many members here who have a lot of knowledge and experience have a responsibility to guide the beginners in helping them understand that there is a right way and a wrong way to go about their training and in getting their information. I think these members would do a greater service to the beginners if they were more willing to point this out to them, rather than just give them the information they were hoping for. I think that if we choose to engage in a discussion with a beginner, we should be giving them the information that they NEED, even when it's not the information that they WANT.


 
I can't agree, and it denies the point of this site, really. It's not impossible to learn things from video, or the net, although that is not the best way, IMHO. 



> I actually do see this in some cases here. It's been a while, but we sometimes get a newbie who posts about how he is training himself in some kind of sword work. The sword community tends to unite in telling him that this is really a bad idea, and he needs to get a good teacher or else he is going to severely hurt himself or someone else.


 
Fair enough, although the person being referred to in the thread that inspired this one was NOT a beginner, nor were they asking questions about advanced material beyond what they had already learned. 



> What happened over in the Kenpo section that sparked this thread, was the OP was offended by the suggestion. A couple of us pointed out that he should get the answers to certain questions from his instructor. He was indignant and seems to have left the forum altogether, simply because we made that suggestion instead of giving the answers that he apparently felt he had a right to. weird.


 
In fairness, the response that offended him offended a few others as well. Some viewed it as insulting.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 23, 2010)

MattJ said:


> Apologies for jumping into this late, I just saw it.
> 
> FC -
> 
> I can understand that, and agree to a certain point. But a forum _is_ a text-based medium to communicate - no physical anything is going to happen here. Disallowing on-topic questions because one _perceives_ that the questioner _may not_ be technically adept enough to understand the answer is overstepping, IMHO. Kind of voids the whole purpose for a martial-arts forum.


 
I'll relate a lot of what i'm saying here in relation to the Kenpo thread that sparked this thread...

I think you and a couple others, based on some comments, are misunderstanding my intentions somewhat.  I never said disallow, nor anything like it.  Nobody but Bob Hubbard has that power here, to actually control what is discussed, or disallow a topic of discussion.  So unless he steps in to do so, it's not going to happen.

I merely stated that it's a poor venue for passing certain types of information, and it's a reasonable and responsible position for a more advanced person to point that out and suggest a better way for a beginner to get his info.

It's advice.  The beginner in the other thread asked for advice, and he received a lot.  Some of that advice he didn't like.  Of course he can choose to ignore that advice.  But in my opinion, it was the best advice given in that thread.



> I see that type of opinion as somewhat condescending. How do you know what the purpose of the question is? How do you know the person won't understand? I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt, unless they really demonstrate otherwise.


 
as Carol pointed out, there might have been a language barrier that made him express himself less clearly than he might have.  But, he came on with a shopping list of techs and asked for clarifiction on technical points.  I can only interpret his meaning based on what he has written.  My interpretation was that he was asking questions that he'd be better off asking his instructor.



> I can't agree, and it denies the point of this site, really. It's not impossible to learn things from video, or the net, although that is not the best way, IMHO.


 
nobody said he can't learn something from an internet discussion.  That IS what this site is all about, after all.

Again, some kinds of information are not conveyed well under this venue.  It was good advice.



> Fair enough, although the person being referred to in the thread that inspired this one was NOT a beginner, nor were they asking questions about advanced material beyond what they had already learned.


 
yes, he was a beginner, in kenpo.  It doesn't matter what else he had studied.  In kenpo, he was a beginner.  At this stage of his development IN KENPO, he'd be best served by getting the answers from his instructor.

His own teacher came on that thread and pointed out that the chap has studied shotokan and wing chun, and maybe something else.  I don't know much about shotokan, but I did spend a few short years training wing chun.  It doesn't use anything like a horse stance nor neutral bow anything like kenpo does.  But in the very first tech, he asked about using a horse vs. using a NB.  I can say that his wing chun training likely gave him little or no relevant experience to fall back on.  In that case, his experience won't serve him in discussing the technical fine points of kenpo self defense techs.  It gives him no advantage, nor head start.

in kenpo, he is a beginner. By his own statement, he's had about six months.



> In fairness, the response that offended him offended a few others as well. Some viewed it as insulting.


 
in that same fairness, as I've said a few times now, I think it was an over reaction.  I did not read insult in the response.  Asking him if he has an instructor, is not insulting.

The guy came on with a shopping list of techs that he wanted clarification on.  Backing up for a moment and saying, hey, are you actually studying with someone?  Or are you trying to just pick up these techs thru internet descriptions or something?  I don't see anything wrong with asking for that clarification, and telling him that if he has a teacher, he would do better to ask his teacher.  

Doc and I have certainly locked horns on things in the past.  I don't always agree with him and vice-versa.  But in this case I don't think he was out of line in the least.  I was going to say the same thing he said, but he said it first.  

If someone was insulted by what he said, then I think they are over reacting.


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## pete (Mar 24, 2010)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> yes, he was a beginner, in kenpo. It doesn't matter what else he had studied. In kenpo, he was a beginner. At this stage of his development IN KENPO, he'd be best served by getting the answers from his instructor.


 
Here lies the problem, in that their is a mixture of opinion and fact being used to create a straw-man.  Fact- he is a beginner in kenpo, Opinion- it doesn't matter what else he had studied, Opinion- in kenpo he'd be best served by getting answers from his instructor... Straw Man: I am really doing him a favor by Not answering his questions.

Falls apart when, a. Differing Opinion is that prior training does matter (EVERYTHING MATTERS), and b. he may be getting one perspective from his instructor, but can benefit from another perspective that connects his prior training to his new kenpo.  

If your opinion is such that you feel any answer you provide would be casting pearls before swine, well... you have that right to say so, and refrain from providing answers... just understand its not an absolute and others may see a different opportunity through this communication.

pete.


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## Blindside (Mar 24, 2010)

I'm still trying to figure out just how much a student is harmed by hearing about information other than his own lineage. We aren't even saying other advice is bad advice at this point, only that potential confusion lies in having multiple interpretations or slightly different execution. 

Are we agreed that it is highly unlikely that Student X going online and hearing from MushinMatt at Budotalk that the third step of his kata should be to 12:00 rather than the 11:00 like his instructor told him, is unlikely to cause an irrevocable loss of confidence in his instructor and have him quit the arts forever? 

So given that it is unlikely to make the student quit martial arts, just how much could this student be harmed? He has an instructor, and is hearing about "other options" that he could be doing. His normal progression is stunted by 5%? 10%? 20%? I'm assuming that this belief that it is harmful to student growth is based on experience.

So what is the experience of the many instructor's on this board with students who are seeking information from the internet or other media?


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## dancingalone (Mar 24, 2010)

Blindside said:


> So what is the experience of the many instructor's on this board with students who are seeking information from the internet or other media?



Personally, I don't mind it.  At a minimum the student is taking initiative to learn the material for himself.  ACTIVE learning even if it consults different sources is superior for internalization compared to droning back what Sensei says in class.  I recognize that there are almost infinite variations on every technique and there are thousands of ways to explain every martial concept.  If one of my students understands better a key point because he saw it demonstrated in a clip on the internet, I have no problems with it.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Mar 24, 2010)

There have been many times I've taken advice from the members of this forum and presented it to Sensei.  Sometimes he'd show me why it was right.  Sometimes, he'd show me how it differed from his teachings.

Overall, as a beginner, it's my obligation to learn.  As a student, it's my responsibility to present extant information to my teacher for his opinion.


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## Carol (Mar 24, 2010)

I don't think the concern is centered around what the student learns.  I think there is more of a concern from the responder's standpoint as to how the responder's investment in time is going to be used.  Is it really to help someone learn Kenpo or is it to help someone become a 10th dan in their own abomination of an art say "yep, this includes Kenpo" or do something else perceived to be bad for the art.

Personally I don't support withholding information, in general.  I think the more widely an art is documented, the more consistent its practitioners will become, because their is more material to base a hard standard.  The challenge becomes motivating to share what they know in a beneficial manner.  Simply pressuring someone to do so is not sufficient.

But...that is just my opinion as someone that has never been an instructor.


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## wushuguy (Mar 24, 2010)

well, from my limited experience as an instructor, some of my students "learned" some "techniques" online, and most of it is off... not sure if they "learned" about it from a forum or from a website, but really one can't learn well something they have little or no experience in, just by reading someone's post. even an excellent and outstanding martial artist with vast experience, couldn't clearly detail how to do a technique easily, let alone most people who post and share knowledge like the majority of us.

Some can do very well via video, such as chinaboxer, but you can see the points made on the video have been well thought out on how to present it and the topic discussed is narrow, any more info and it will be too difficult to answer every aspect or question that may arise. so a good video or post will be right on the topic, well thought out, and not leave room for if's and's or but's, and it won't try to overwhelm a reader/viewer with info.

When I first started my blog, I was thinking of putting a "techniques" section on there, however, after seeing how my students understood stuff they learned online I realized that it would only hamper other's progress in their own arts and make things difficult for their teachers.

So there's nothing wrong with reading stuff online, but when we put an "instructional/how to" post or reply to a person's how to question, we should really consider to speak clearly and accurately and it is helpful to know the approximate level of understanding of the person asking the questions so as to speak in a way they can comprehend accordingly. 

I think the purpose of this thread is to let us all have some thought about how we post and share so we can have a better growing community. put more heart to how we post to make sure it is clearly understood.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 24, 2010)

Blindside said:


> I'm still trying to figure out just how much a student is harmed by hearing about information other than his own lineage. We aren't even saying other advice is bad advice at this point, only that potential confusion lies in having multiple interpretations or slightly different execution.
> 
> Are we agreed that it is highly unlikely that Student X going online and hearing from MushinMatt at Budotalk that the third step of his kata should be to 12:00 rather than the 11:00 like his instructor told him, is unlikely to cause an irrevocable loss of confidence in his instructor and have him quit the arts forever?
> 
> ...


 
On the other hand, I"m trying to understand why anybody would feel that it's a good idea for a six-month newbie to go online and ask for guidance on a forum, instead of (or even in addition to) his instructor.  I don't understand why anybody with any level of real experience would feel that is a good idea.

Sure, later when he is more experieced this kind of exploration might be fruitful.  But as a six-month newbie?  It's a silly idea.


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## dancingalone (Mar 24, 2010)

Michael, It's all about one's perspective.  You think his prior experience is immaterial in kenpo.  Others don't.


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## wushuguy (Mar 24, 2010)

i think it's great that newbies and experienced martial artists have a forum to go to for guidance. but especially for the newbie, what every he gains from reading online or a forum, gotta ask your teacher about  how to understand or use it.


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## Blindside (Mar 24, 2010)

Flying Crane said:


> On the other hand, I"m trying to understand why anybody would feel that it's a good idea for a six-month newbie to go online and ask for guidance on a forum, instead of (or even in addition to) his instructor. I don't understand why anybody with any level of real experience would feel that is a good idea.
> 
> Sure, later when he is more experieced this kind of exploration might be fruitful. But as a six-month newbie? It's a silly idea.


 
Is this opinion based on your experience as an instructor?  How badly have your students been impacted by researching other sources?


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## Carol (Mar 24, 2010)

Flying Crane said:


> But as a six-month newbie?  It's a silly idea.



Really?


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## Flying Crane (Mar 24, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Michael, It's all about one's perspective. You think his prior experience is immaterial in kenpo. Others don't.


 
I think his prior experience is not automatically an advantage in learning kenpo.  I won't assume he's got a head start.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 24, 2010)

Blindside said:


> Is this opinion based on your experience as an instructor? How badly have your students been impacted by researching other sources?


 
no.  It's based on my experience watching how many students struggle to catch on while working with a real instructor.

Turn that into an internet discussion with no hands-on, no face-to-face, and I don't buy it.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 24, 2010)

Carol said:


> Really?


 
I'm not sure what you are getting at here... were you a newbie in that example?  Was there a reason you could not ask your teacher?  Personally, I think I would have given you that advice had I seen this thread at the time.

I'm not in a position to judge how well it turned out for you.  But I suspect that working with your instructor some more to iron it out would have given you better results that Michael Edward's guidance did.


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## dancingalone (Mar 24, 2010)

Flying Crane said:


> I think his prior experience is not automatically an advantage in learning kenpo.  I won't assume he's got a head start.



You're actually assuming the opposite: that in spite of his prior experience, he IS a beginner in kenpo.  Subtle difference but it makes all the difference in the world.  Step back a bit, my friend.  You're on the verge of becoming inveterate and dogmatic on this.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 24, 2010)

semantics anyone


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## dancingalone (Mar 24, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> semantics anyone



Fat and obese can be regarded as semantical expressions to each other.  They still convey a different meaning, no?


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## OnlyAnEgg (Mar 24, 2010)

opcorn:


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## Blindside (Mar 24, 2010)

Flying Crane said:


> no. It's based on my experience watching how many students struggle to catch on while working with a real instructor.
> 
> Turn that into an internet discussion with no hands-on, no face-to-face, and I don't buy it.


 
Fair enough.  

Based off my experience as a student in the age of the internet, where I voraciously searched for everything in any media source related to kenpo and later kali, I can categorically say that it didn't harm my progression in those arts.  I base this on my rate of advancement through the underbelt ranks that was faster than average.  I can say that the knowledge gained from that research made be a better martial artist and kenpoist than I would have been without it.    

In my experience as an instructor, which has only been in the age of the internet, I have NEVER seen a student be harmed or his growth stunted by researching other sources.  At worst it is a good discussion point about why we do what we do, and that is exactly what I am supposed to be doing as an instructor.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 24, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Fat and obese can be regarded as semantical expressions to each other. They still convey a different meaning, no?


 
true but no one is arguing that they are different either



OnlyAnEgg said:


> opcorn:


opcorn:


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## dancingalone (Mar 24, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> true but no one is arguing that they are different either



They are.  Just as there is a difference between these two statements.



> I think his prior experience is not automatically an advantage in learning kenpo.  I won't assume he's got a head start.
> 
> In spite of his prior experience, he IS a beginner in kenpo.


IMO, Michael's actual position that he displays on the two threads is a lot closer to the second sentence than the first.  The first is rather more neutral.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 24, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> You're actually assuming the opposite: that in spite of his prior experience, he IS a beginner in kenpo. Subtle difference but it makes all the difference in the world. Step back a bit, my friend. You're on the verge of becoming inveterate and dogmatic on this.


 
No, he actually stated that he's been doing kenpo for about six months.  In my book, that's a beginner, IN KENPO.

He may not be a beginner in something else.  but in kenpo, he's a beginner.


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## dancingalone (Mar 24, 2010)

Flying Crane said:


> No, he actually stated that he's been doing kenpo for about six months.



Yes, I got that.  Does it necessarily follow that he's a true beginner in kenpo?  Obviously there's a whole lotta acreage between Yes and No...


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## Flying Crane (Mar 24, 2010)

Blindside said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> Based off my experience as a student in the age of the internet, where I voraciously searched for everything in any media source related to kenpo and later kali, I can categorically say that it didn't harm my progression in those arts. I base this on my rate of advancement through the underbelt ranks that was faster than average. I can say that the knowledge gained from that research made be a better martial artist and kenpoist than I would have been without it.
> 
> In my experience as an instructor, which has only been in the age of the internet, I have NEVER seen a student be harmed or his growth stunted by researching other sources. At worst it is a good discussion point about why we do what we do, and that is exactly what I am supposed to be doing as an instructor.


 

There is a difference between doing research on the internet, and asking the members of a forum to fix his technique.  If you read his OP in the kenpo thread, he came on with a shopping list of techs and was asking people to help fix what he was doing.

He may not have used those exact words, but that is really what he was asking.  Here is his OP, without any lead-in or other clarification:

*Question1:
Twirling wings. In my curiculum, it says that my 2nd elbow should be executed int o a left figting horse (facing 9 o'clock). But won't this horse stance give us a bad bracing angle??? I prefer to do it in a neutral bow.

Question2:
Chrushing hammer. Is this technique in family with chrashing wings #16 orange belt technique. Both steps behind with "7" and lifts head with obscure elbow, and 1st hits the groin, in chrushing hammer hits the ribs.

Question3:
Captured leaves. Does elbows straight in, whereas in twirling wings the elbows are horizontal. Familiy? 

Question4:
Calming the storm. The last hits to the right lower ribs, is done while counterrotating or? I think the rotation is focused on the waiter check, but in everyother technique, we expect the person to move his hands, to where hes last hit - why do we have to check the hand which isn't there?

Question5:
Reversing Mace. Do you move your right foot, slightly - or is it nailed to the ground, i get a much better more accurate and powerfull effect if i can move it slightly...

Question6:
Obscure wing. If the guys has straight arm, how can you reach with midrange weapon elbow. This technique is done vs. someone close and with bend elbow - right?

Question 7:
Raining Claw. I like splitting in this technique, but my teacher says i can't since we haven't moved ourself away from the target. My argument is mirrage of gravity to the arm and the raining claw coming simoultaneously.

Question 8:
Obscure sword. Is the guy dragging you back, or just holding you? Or do you pin his hand and step forward dragging him along into the obscure sword?

Thanks for your time and Patience. *


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## Flying Crane (Mar 24, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Yes, I got that. Does it necessarily follow that he's a true beginner in kenpo? Obviously there's a whole lotta acreage between Yes and No...


 
Would you suggest that after six months, he is NOT a beginner in kenpo?


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## dancingalone (Mar 24, 2010)

Flying Crane said:


> Would you suggest that after six months, he is NOT a beginner in kenpo?



Define beginner.  To me a beginner is a complete newbie who doesn't know what questions to ask.  He's in the stage of copying the guy in the front of the class.  The guy we're talking about is clearly beyond that stage.  He's reading up on the principles of the EPAK system and is trying to relate it with his prior experience to better understand EPAK. 

Nothing wrong with that.  And there's nothing wrong with your own answer either as this is all opinion.


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## Carol (Mar 24, 2010)

Flying Crane said:


> I'm not sure what you are getting at here... were you a newbie in that example?



Yup. Started up in July 05, so that's me at 7 months in...with no prior MA training at all.  



> Was there a reason you could not ask your teacher?


A few reasons.  

Y'all are online and available 24/7, my teachers were not, nor were they available by phone or e-mail.  

I didn't have the chance to ask the question in class because with one of the teachers (the one that also taught BJJ) on vacation,  the other teachers were overwhelmed.

I thought about the question when surfing MT, and had the chance to collect my thoughts and voice them in a concise manner.  I didn't always have the chance to in class. Ya know, its hard being a newbie and all...esp. when you get all this strange terminology thown at you.  



> Personally, I think I would have given you that advice had I seen this thread at the time.


I believe you.    I bet other people would have too, even as a noobie I tried to be respectful of everyone's time and knowledge when I asked the question...my respect paid off, I received some valuable input.



> I'm not in a position to judge how well it turned out for you.  But I suspect that working with your instructor some more to iron it out would have given you better results that Michael Edward's guidance did.


Its not either/or.  I was not taking private lessons at the time, I was in a regular class.   More often than not, no one has unlimited time, and no one has unlimited time with their instructor.  Especially being the enginerdy type, I'm a bit shy in real life...particularly when I don't have 100% confidence over the situation I am.

What Michael did was give me a description of the techniques, as well as his input as to where people struggle.  That, in turn, helped me understand where my weaknesses may be.  In this case, he helped me discover a pattern of areas where I was having trouble    He also helped me voice better and clearer questions when I did have a chance to speak with my instructor.  

Had I not asked what I did, I would have said "The way we did Tripping Arrow and Falling Falcon in BBC last week confused me a bit..."   This is a rather generic statement, no?   Its not even a question.  So what answer would a teacher give?  It might be different than the answer I got to the question that I asked.

I mentioned to my instructor that the way we did the two techs confused me a bit, and that I have come to realize that where I am struggling is when my limbs are moving in different directions.   I noticed this last week as well when we were working on (a different technique). I think I'm having trouble with developing what drummers call 'four limb independence'.  I am having trouble learning, and performing, the techniques that utilize this concept.  Could you please help me with this?  

That advice, helped me to eventually verbalize this question, which dramatically shaped how I approached my training after that.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=537985&highlight=kinesthetic#post537985

I really don't think a beginner asking questions online is silly.  Some ways of going about it may be more advisable than others, but I think some of us ask some good questions.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 24, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Define beginner. To me a beginner is a complete newbie who doesn't know what questions to ask. He's in the stage of copying the guy in the front of the class. The guy we're talking about is clearly beyond that stage. He's reading up on the principles of the EPAK system and is trying to relate it with his prior experience to better understand EPAK.
> 
> Nothing wrong with that. And there's nothing wrong with your own answer either as this is all opinion.


 
well, he's definitely having trouble with the techs that he's already learned.  Otherwise he wouldn't have come on to ask for corrections.


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## Shifu Steve (Mar 24, 2010)

SensibleManiac said:


> I'm also highly skeptical when someone mentions advanced techniques. If you look at the best champions in any combat sport you'll notice they all use the same techniques as beginners are taught, the basics. They are basic because that's what you will use the most. The champions use the same techniques, they are just better at them and at using them than everyone else. That's why they are champions. If the advanced techniques theory were true then we would see champions using advanced techniques.
> Look at any champion boxer, they use the same jab, cross, hooks, uppercuts as any beginning boxer is taught. It's just that they are alot better at using them.


 
Amen. Once you figure out the major concepts involved behind the techniques the "mystery" dissolves and at that point the only thing separating the men from the boys is practice and a willingness to be critical of yourself and what you're doing.


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## dancingalone (Mar 24, 2010)

Flying Crane said:


> well, he's definitely having trouble with the techs that he's already learned.  Otherwise he wouldn't have come on to ask for corrections.



You think so?  You might be right.  

My thought was that he probably does the techs fine in the so-called 'ideal phase' but he wants to break through that ceiling and internalize whatever concepts those techs are supposed to convey.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 24, 2010)

Carol said:


> I really don't think a beginner asking questions online is silly. Some ways of going about it may be more advisable than others, but I think some of us ask some good questions.


 
Thanks for the response, Carol.  

And let me clarify: I never suggested, nor intended to imply, that newbies should not ask questions.  

Rather, I think some kinds of technical information does not transfer well thru the internet discussion venue, and in that case, the best advice is, "you should ask your instructor".

You got some benefit from your exchange, and that helped you.  OK, it can happen.  But in the main, I still think the better advice is, go talk to your instructor about it.

Let me ask this: does anyone feel that it is actually bad advice?  When a beginner is asking some detailed technical questions, to tell him, "you should ask your instructor, he is in a better position to help you with this".   Does anyone feel this is actually bad advice?  Do people feel that, if someone asks a question, they should be given the information simply because they asked?  They somehow have the right to expect the answers that they want?

Is there something objectionable to suggesting that there might be a better way to get the answers they need?


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## Flying Crane (Mar 24, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> You think so? You might be right.
> 
> My thought was that he probably does the techs fine in the so-called 'ideal phase' but he wants to break through that ceiling and internalize whatever concepts those techs are supposed to convey.


 
well maybe.  But the way it reads to me, he sort of understands them but he isn't comfortable with them yet.  He's got his own ideas on how some of it might be done, do he wanted some validation or clarification for it.

in my opinion, that's a perfect reason to work with his instructor.  

I can only give advice based on my opinion.  My opinion is based on my interpretation of the facts, and how they relate to my own experiences.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Mar 24, 2010)

Flying Crane said:


> Let me ask this: does anyone feel that it is actually bad advice? When a beginner is asking some detailed technical questions, to tell him, "you should ask your instructor, he is in a better position to help you with this". Does anyone feel this is actually bad advice? Do people feel that, if someone asks a question, they should be given the information simply because they asked? They somehow have the right to expect the answers that they want?
> 
> Is there something objectionable to suggesting that there might be a better way to get the answers they need?


 
That's not a bad response at all, FC; but, by the same token, having a discussion online isn't so bad, either.  As I suggested earlier, I wouldn't dream of arguing with my instructor based on what I learned on a forum.  Even this forum.  There is a high level of experience, intelligence and skill here.  It would surely be a sad, sad thing if every nub recieved 'Go ask your instructor' as an answer for every question.

I suppose one needs to feel, perhaps, that they're talking with someone that has some sense before dispensing advice; but, I don't think caution should be the basis for refusing a discussion.


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## dancingalone (Mar 24, 2010)

Flying Crane said:


> Rather, I think some kinds of technical information does not transfer well thru the internet discussion venue, and in that case, the best advice is, "you should ask your instructor".
> 
> You got some benefit from your exchange, and that helped you.  OK, it can happen.  But in the main, I still think the better advice is, go talk to your instructor about it.
> 
> ...



It is not a bad answer at all, but it's probably one more suited to a FAQ than a regular reply inside a thread.  Kinda gets back to what I said way, way back in this thread about MT being awfully pointless if we didn't talk about technique.  "Ask your instructor" would be a valid reply to any question posed here.  But it would be very dull indeed to read it time and time again.


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## Blindside (Mar 24, 2010)

Flying Crane said:


> There is a difference between doing research on the internet, and asking the members of a forum to fix his technique. If you read his OP in the kenpo thread, he came on with a shopping list of techs and was asking people to help fix what he was doing.


 
If I ask the question: "do you do a hack or a slice to the neck on the second hand motion of "Five Swords?"  Is that research or is it me trying to "fix what I am doing?"  And is it unanswerable on this forum in your mind?


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 24, 2010)

Flying Crane said:


> Let me ask this: does anyone feel that it is actually bad advice? When a beginner is asking some detailed technical questions, to tell him, "you should ask your instructor, he is in a better position to help you with this".


 
IMO no



Flying Crane said:


> Do people feel that, if someone asks a question, they should be given the information simply because they asked? They somehow have the right to expect the answers that they want?


 
IMO no



Flying Crane said:


> Is there something objectionable to suggesting that there might be a better way to get the answers they need?


 
IMO no


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## Xinglu (Mar 24, 2010)

Flying Crane said:


> When a beginner is asking some detailed technical questions, to tell  him, "you should ask your instructor, he is in a better position to help  you with this".   Does anyone feel this is actually bad advice?


Not at all. Likewise do you feel it is bad advice to preface your opinion with "you should run this by your instructor" but here's what I was taught/think/discovered/teach?  



Flying Crane said:


> Do people feel that, if someone asks a question, they should be given the information simply because they asked?  They somehow have the right to expect the answers that they want?


 To me, no.  However, do you feel that it is your obligation to tell them to ask their instructor? If I don't want to answer someone's question, I just don't post.  Have you considered that maybe they have asked their instructor and didn't get an explanation they understood if one at all?  I have asked question on here where an instructor simply said, "we do it this way because that is how I was taught and it works for me." I have never included those in such posts because quite frankly it is irrelevant to the question at hand and no-one else needs to know (as in it wouldn't change any opinion on the question from them at all).




Flying Crane said:


> Is there something objectionable to suggesting that there might be a better way to get the answers they need?


 Not in my book, but is there something objectionable to giving them you opinion and then telling them to talk to their instructor about that?  Sometimes the student doesn't know the question to ask, and sometimes we can give them that by taking the time to consider their question.


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## Xinglu (Mar 24, 2010)

Michael, in light of this post, I have a question for you.  In your opinion do you feel that sites such as this one should have a rank requirement to participate?  If so, how is this enforced and what do you do with styles that don't have ranks or levels?


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## Flying Crane (Mar 24, 2010)

Xinglu said:


> Michael, in light of this post, I have a question for you. In your opinion do you feel that sites such as this one should have a rank requirement to participate? If so, how is this enforced and what do you do with styles that don't have ranks or levels?


 
absolutely not, and I never meant to imply such.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 24, 2010)

Blindside said:


> If I ask the question: "do you do a hack or a slice to the neck on the second hand motion of "Five Swords?" Is that research or is it me trying to "fix what I am doing?" And is it unanswerable on this forum in your mind?


 
How I interpret your question is actually a judgement call that I need to make, for myself.

Knowing that it's you, I'd say it's research.  I know you've got experience.  And you are initiating a discussion about one tech.

When someone with six months in the system comes in with a shopping list of techs, and is asking for corrections, then he's asking people to fix what he is doing.


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## Carol (Mar 24, 2010)

Flying Crane said:


> Thanks for the response, Carol.
> 
> And let me clarify: I never suggested, nor intended to imply, that newbies should not ask questions.
> 
> ...


 
Isn't that what I did?  Didn't I demonstrate an example of how asking a question online lead to a more effective question for my instructor?  



> Let me ask this: does anyone feel that it is actually bad advice?  When a beginner is asking some detailed technical questions, to tell him, "you should ask your instructor, he is in a better position to help you with this".   Does anyone feel this is actually bad advice?  Do people feel that, if someone asks a question, they should be given the information simply because they asked?  They somehow have the right to expect the answers that they want?
> 
> Is there something objectionable to suggesting that there might be a better way to get the answers they need?


I don't think its bad advice, no.  And I don't feel that anyone should be obligated to answer a question that they don't want to answer.  I also don't think it is unreasonable to question the poster, or be critical of the poster.  I have learned a lot from people that gave me technical input, I have also learned a lot from people that have suggested that I might be on the wrong path.  In the question I posted, it is clear that I do have an instructor.  Had I posed the question differently, I would not have minded someone asking if I had an instructor.  

I also really don't think its fair to ask someone for a brain dump of information.  It doesn't make for the best discussion either.

The only thing that I find mildly objectionable is the assumption that knowledge most only come from one's teacher and that knowledge from other sources can't supplement another person's learning.  

I know from years of experience as a support engineer that that explaining a technical concept three different ways leads to greater retention than explaining a technical concept one way, three times.

So...no, I don't agree the best way _is _to ask one's instructor.  I think in some cases best way might be  to ask one's instructor.  In other cases, it may be to get more information and to ask more focused questions of your instructor.  Do I think that should oblige you in to answering?  Heck no.  But I won't let it stop me from asking a respectful question, either.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 24, 2010)

Xinglu said:


> Not at all. Likewise do you feel it is bad advice to preface your opinion with "you should run this by your instructor" but here's what I was taught/think/discovered/teach?


 
I think that is very reasonable.



> To me, no. However, do you feel that it is your obligation to tell them to ask their instructor? If I don't want to answer someone's question, I just don't post.


 
I think that a lot of people expect to get the answers that they want and demand, right now.  I think that these people expect things to be handed to them on a platter.  I think that our Instant Gratification Society has conditioned people to believe they have a right to this.  I think that much of this stuff is complex and nuanced and subtle enough that it does not transfer well on a platter.  I think that pointing this out to somebody might give them a different perspective, and help them realize that they might not be going about their information-gathering in the best way.

Do I have an obligation to tell this to them?  No.  But as I stated in my OP, how many of us complain about the decay of the martial arts?  In my opinion, this can contribute to that decay.  So instead of complaining, I'll do my small part and point out to someone when there might be a better way for them to get their information.



> Have you considered that maybe they have asked their instructor and didn't get an explanation they understood if one at all?


 
that is an unfortunate situation.  I don't know the answer to it.  If his instructor cannot communicate clearly, or simply doesn't know the answer, maybe he's not a good teacher.  But that doesn't mean getting his technical info thru internet discussions is a good way to fill in the gaps.  Instead, he might need to consider finding a better teacher. 



> Not in my book, but is there something objectionable to giving them you opinion and then telling them to talk to their instructor about that? Sometimes the student doesn't know the question to ask, and sometimes we can give them that by taking the time to consider their question.


 
that can be a reasonable and balanced way to approach it.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 24, 2010)

Carol said:


> I also don't think it is unreasonable to question the poster, or be critical of the poster. I have learned a lot from people that gave me technical input, *I have also learned a lot from people that have suggested that I might be on the wrong path*.


 
bingo, particularly the bolded portion.  That's really my point.

going back to the example from the kenpo forums, I think the OP was offended simply because he was told he might be on the wrong path, instead of just giving him what he asked for.  That was really my problem with the whole thing from the beginning.  He got advice that he didn't like and it upset him, even tho he was asking for advice.



> But I won't let it stop me from asking a respectful question, either.


 
nor should it.


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## pete (Mar 24, 2010)

Since the OP's questions were replanted upstream in this thread, I'll repost my response to each questions, for the most part to illustrate one way of handling such questions that require some homework on the part of the OP and likely consultation with his instructor.  



> Question1: why the emphasis on bracing? bracing limits mobility, while another option may be to follow the force rather than brace against it.
> 
> Question2: i've seen families and categories defined various ways, from the nature of the attack to the physical interpretation of your motion. can be a good tool to practice different technique applications, but a bad idea to categorize for the sake of categorization.
> 
> ...


 
i don't have a problem with your opinion being what it is, what i do have issue with is posturing it as if it is 'the one true way' and all others should stand down... irrespective of any rank and seniority that may accompany that opinion, i disagree.

pete.


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## MattJ (Mar 24, 2010)

Blindside said:


> So what is the experience of the many instructor's on this board with students who are seeking information from the internet or other media?


 
When I was teaching, I encouraged students and fellow instructors to seek alternate sources of info about their training. If they found something different, we would all examine it to see if it was useful or not. If it was, then we _all_ learned something. The more you search, the more you find. 

When we talk of being aware of our surroundings, does that mean we ONLY look forward? Or do we check other directions, too?


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## MattJ (Mar 24, 2010)

Flying Crane said:


> going back to the example from the kenpo forums, I think the OP was offended simply because he was told he might be on the wrong path, instead of just giving him what he asked for. That was really my problem with the whole thing from the beginning. He got advice that he didn't like and it upset him, even tho he was asking for advice.


 
FC, with all due respect, that is a gross mischaracterization of what happened. He was not offended simply because he was told to ask his instructor. He was offended because Doc asked him _if he even had one_. Huge difference in tone, and one that several of us found objectionable. 

The level of detail in his questions showed clearly that he had instruction.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 24, 2010)

MattJ said:


> FC, with all due respect, that is a gross mischaracterization of what happened. He was not offended simply because he was told to ask his instructor. He was offended because Doc asked him _if he even had one_. Huge difference in tone, and one that several of us found objectionable.
> 
> The level of detail in his questions showed clearly that he had instruction.


 
yes, I have already agreed to disagree with you on this.


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## MJS (Mar 24, 2010)

Carol said:


> I don't think the concern is centered around what the student learns. I think there is more of a concern from the responder's standpoint as to how the responder's investment in time is going to be used. Is it really to help someone learn Kenpo or is it to help someone become a 10th dan in their own abomination of an art say "yep, this includes Kenpo" or do something else perceived to be bad for the art.
> 
> Personally I don't support withholding information, in general. I think the more widely an art is documented, the more consistent its practitioners will become, because their is more material to base a hard standard. The challenge becomes motivating to share what they know in a beneficial manner. Simply pressuring someone to do so is not sufficient.
> 
> But...that is just my opinion as someone that has never been an instructor.


 
Nice post Carol.   I thought I posted what I'm about to say in my other posts, but maybe I didn't.  Anyways....in many cases, people are not fortunate enough to train directly with the source or a secondary source thats close to the original source.  For example...one of my main Arnis instructors spent quite a bit of time with Prof. Presas.  He is one of six, that heads up the group I'm a part of.  He is within walking distance of my house, so I'm very fortunate to train with him pretty much weekly.  

Now, lets say that another student trains under someone that is a 5th, 6th, 7th or more, generation teacher.  Things may be changed, lost in translation, from one teacher to the next, perhaps this student doesnt make it up to a 'source' on a regular basis, but he maintains phone or email or forum contact with a source.  

Personally, any way that I can gain info. I'll take it.  As I said earlier, people will not be around forever, unfortunately.  I'm not advocating a students sole learning come from dvd, online training, etc., but if I can get a tip, or something from a source other than a live person, I'll take it.


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## MJS (Mar 24, 2010)

If I were to attend a Kenpo seminar, and I saw a version of, oh, say, 5 Swords, done in a way that was very different to what I do, then head over the the Kenpo forum, and ask, "How does everyone out here in cyber land, do 5 Swords?" is that wrong?

If i were to ask in the BJJ section to describe what methods they use to escape the mount and pass guard, is that wrong?

Now, we can view this 2 different ways.  1) I could be asking simply for other opinions, fullying knowing that I'm more than capable of doing 5 Swords and passing guard and escaping mount.  Or 2) I could be asking because I could be new to the orange techs., and really not sure on my escapes and passes.  

1 way is asking opinions, the other is asking for what could be deemed technical info.  I suppose depending on who you're talking to, that'll determine whether or not the posts will be understood or lost in translation.


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## Carol (Mar 24, 2010)

MJS said:


> If I were to attend a Kenpo seminar, and I saw a version of, oh, say, 5 Swords, done in a way that was very different to what I do, then head over the the Kenpo forum, and ask, "How does everyone out here in cyber land, do 5 Swords?" is that wrong?



Nothing wrong with it in my eyes.  But even a guy like you...who is no slouch at Kenpo and no stranger to the board...might even get a "WTH are you doing, Mike?" if you started a thread saying "How does everyone in cyber land do 5 swords, hooking wings, sword of destruction, the sleeper, bowing to buddha, blinding sacrifice, and gift in return?"   Is it realistic to ask anyone to come up with such results, let alone start a cohesive conversation around it?

To be honest, what raised my eyebrows was that so many techs were being asked about at once.  A six month cycle on the 16 tech system permits 1 tech a week for 4 weeks, then 2 weeks review (or something similar).  Asking about 8 techs at once is asking about material that would have been conveyed over 3 months of regular training.  That is a lot of info.


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## jks9199 (Mar 24, 2010)

Flying Crane said:


> Thanks for the response, Carol.
> 
> And let me clarify: I never suggested, nor intended to imply, that newbies should not ask questions.
> 
> Rather, I think some kinds of technical information does not transfer well thru the internet discussion venue, and in that case, the best advice is, "you should ask your instructor".


This -- I agree with.  I was on the fence on the responses because of that... But I think that there are perhaps other ways to say that, which might come across less curtly. 





> You got some benefit from your exchange, and that helped you.  OK, it can happen.  But in the main, I still think the better advice is, go talk to your instructor about it.
> 
> Let me ask this: does anyone feel that it is actually bad advice?  When a beginner is asking some detailed technical questions, to tell him, "you should ask your instructor, he is in a better position to help you with this".   Does anyone feel this is actually bad advice?  Do people feel that, if someone asks a question, they should be given the information simply because they asked?  They somehow have the right to expect the answers that they want?
> 
> Is there something objectionable to suggesting that there might be a better way to get the answers they need?



I think I've answered this already; I think that there is a better or different way to say it.  "Ask your teacher." or "Don't you have a teacher? He or she'll tell you when they want to..."  comes across curtly, at least.  "Those are really issues you should work with your teacher on; you need to see how they come together and we can't do that on the web" might go down a little better.

And, one generic note on advanced techniques:  All an advanced technique really amounts to is a basic technique, done with more principles -- or a few basic techniques put together and done well.


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## MJS (Mar 24, 2010)

Carol said:


> Nothing wrong with it in my eyes. But even a guy like you...who is no slouch at Kenpo and no stranger to the board...might even get a "WTH are you doing, Mike?" if you started a thread saying "How does everyone in cyber land do 5 swords, hooking wings, sword of destruction, the sleeper, bowing to buddha, blinding sacrifice, and gift in return?" Is it realistic to ask anyone to come up with such results, let alone start a cohesive conversation around it?


 
True.  Actually what I'd probably be more inclined to do, is maybe post about some findings that I came across while doing technqiues with my teacher, working out with someone from another art, who offered a suggestion that actually blended well with the Kenpo tech., etc.  



> To be honest, what raised my eyebrows was that so many techs were being asked about at once. A six month cycle on the 16 tech system permits 1 tech a week for 4 weeks, then 2 weeks review (or something similar). Asking about 8 techs at once is asking about material that would have been conveyed over 3 months of regular training. That is a lot of info.


 
True, unless the Kenpo school is like a mcdojo or the student feels that he's a fast learner, blazes thru the technique, tells the teacher that 'hes got it' and is ready for something else, and in turn, the teacher goes ahead and gives him something else, even though the student needs work on the stuff that he already has.  

So, in your opinion, going on what you just said, do you feel that was the case?  That the student in question in that other thread, either was asking in advance or had limited knowledge, meaning, he probably had seen the techs. quickly at some point, but didn't spend enough time really working them?


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## Flying Crane (Mar 25, 2010)

MJS said:


> 1 way is asking opinions, the other is asking for what could be deemed technical info. I suppose depending on who you're talking to, that'll determine whether or not the posts will be understood or lost in translation.


 
yup, a lot of it is a judgement call and interpretation on the part of the reader and potential giver of information.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 25, 2010)

MJS said:


> So, in your opinion, going on what you just said, do you feel that was the case? That the student in question in that other thread, either was asking in advance or *had limited knowledge, meaning, he probably had seen the techs. quickly at some point, but didn't spend enough time really working them?*


 
That was definitely the impression that I got. He had learned them but was not yet comfortable with them, and was looking for corrections or validation of his own ideas from the internet.

I posted his OP in this thread back a page or two, you can take a look at how he worded his questions...post #81


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## Xinglu (Mar 25, 2010)

Flying Crane said:


> absolutely not, and I never meant to imply such.


I didn't think you meant to, but it did beg the question, and I wanted to ask just in case you did.



Flying Crane said:


> I think that a lot of people expect to get the answers that they want and demand, right now.  I think that these people expect things to be handed to them on a platter.  I think that our Instant Gratification Society has conditioned people to believe they have a right to this.  I think that much of this stuff is complex and nuanced and subtle enough that it does not transfer well on a platter.  I think that pointing this out to somebody might give them a different perspective, and help them realize that they might not be going about their information-gathering in the best way.


I'm actually disappointed in our society's entitlement complex.  I can't tell you how many times I've pissed people off by not answering their questions.  Often times I find that people aren't so much asking as they are demanding.  Sigh.





Flying Crane said:


> that is an unfortunate situation.  I don't know the answer to it.  If his instructor cannot communicate clearly, or simply doesn't know the answer, maybe he's not a good teacher.  But that doesn't mean getting his technical info thru internet discussions is a good way to fill in the gaps.  Instead, he might need to consider finding a better teacher.


 Hmm, I hate to jump right to that conclusion.  Often times, it is because the instructor never had an issue with that part of the material and never asked the questions, thus never got the answers.  Too often questions are not welcome (in the more traditional schools), it is up to the student to figure it out, and if you spend 30 years in ignorance, that's your problem).  Remember, asking such questions is not always a good thing in eastern cultures.  Jumping to bad teacher conclusions isn't always founded, even the best don't have all the answers.  Often times the truth is found in "committee" laying somewhere in the middle of all the view points/understandings.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 25, 2010)

Xinglu said:


> I'm actually disappointed in our society's entitlement complex. I can't tell you how many times I've pissed people off by not answering their questions. Often times I find that people aren't so much asking as they are demanding. Sigh.


 
I'm not sure I understand this bit....and I DEMAND an explanation because I am ENTITLED to one... just because I asked


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## jks9199 (Mar 26, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> I'm not sure I understand this bit....and I DEMAND an explanation because I am ENTITLED to one... just because I asked


You most certainly are entitled to one.

And here it is:

*Because I said so!*

(Hey, it worked for my mom!)


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## Carol (Mar 26, 2010)

MJS said:


> True, unless the Kenpo school is like a mcdojo or the student feels that he's a fast learner, blazes thru the technique, tells the teacher that 'hes got it' and is ready for something else, and in turn, the teacher goes ahead and gives him something else, even though the student needs work on the stuff that he already has.
> 
> So, in your opinion, going on what you just said, do you feel that was the case?  That the student in question in that other thread, either was asking in advance or had limited knowledge, meaning, he probably had seen the techs. quickly at some point, but didn't spend enough time really working them?



I think what was going on is that the whole picture didn't add up.  The gentleman seemed rather young, and perhaps he was.  (You can have 14 years MA experience and still be in high school.)  He mentioned he's in the Parker-Planas line but is machine-gunning his way through the techniques in a way inconsistent with the lineage, and in a way that is not respectful of everyone's time.


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## Blade96 (Mar 26, 2010)

maybe I should say that of course newbies should ask questions, that is what message boards are kind of for. :uhyeah:

But since the internet is full of every kind of Tom, Dick and Heather, they should be careful about what they read and how people answer because i think people already said they might not be getting the right information....its the net, after all. and they should mostly lean on their sensei (or sifu or dai soke or w/e they have lol)

I asked a question about the mawashi geri - the roundhouse kick to get people's opinions. So I read them, and they are nice. But I will still check with my sensei about how he likes it done.

That's how people should be, I think. Nice to get opinions, but just be careful with what you read. 

(not that i think you're bad, dont misunderstand me.) :angel:


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 26, 2010)

jks9199 said:


> you most certainly are entitled to one.
> 
> And here it is:
> 
> ...


 
Don't take the tone with me young man NOW go to your room!


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## Brian King (Mar 26, 2010)

Is the reply of a post only supposed to be beneficial to the person that asked the original question? I do not know that I really know a single technique so I tend to stay out of technique heavy threads especially in arts I have little experience in, but have read some of those threads with interest. There have been many posts that I have written that I benefited from the writing of them LOL perhaps more than any reading them. 

I think that if a person has the time to write then they should write. If a person has passion for a subject then feed that passion and write. If a person feels an obligation to write then they should search within before they write, an obligation to write is most difficult and is a symptom of something that could be unhealthy. If a stranger writes a question as in the example on post 81 of this thread that FC posted, and you legitimately have a passion for one or more those technique things then by all means share, if you read those questions and you had some time and wanted to do a little mental exercise on some specific movement or technique then in my opinion you should write and enjoy the exercise of deeply thinking about a subject then transferring those thoughts into coherent thoughtfully written words. There is often growth from such exercises. I think that if reading those questions from a stranger, and feeling obligated to answer cause they are a beginner and you are an expert or that they are doing the technique wrong and you know how to do it right, there might be a problem with replying right away to the post. More of a problem is if a person feels a compunction to reply to show how much they know or understand there is a problem.

If the person asking the question is helped and gets new understanding that is great and I think likely. That help might come in different forms than what is expected. They may gain insight from seeing their art from other perspectives, seeing from other eyes. They may hear something that their instructor has been saying all along but the phraseology was different so that now what their instructor had been telling them all along now makes more sense to them. Perhaps their confusion and frustration will be increased enough that they finally have a conversation with their instructor that makes things more clear and deepens their relationship. Or, perhaps they leave that style or martial arts altogether. Sad yes but long term martial arts study is not for everyone in my opinion. Even if they leave the thread confused that is neutral as they were confused to begin with and who knows that info gleaned may make sense later on in their development. 

There are ways it would seem to me of responsibly answering with detail detailed questions if one wished to answer them. The way I or we do it is, your instructor may have valid reasons for doing it that way but I have found for myself or my students this makes sense and I am curious what their reasoning is, perhaps you could ask them for further clarification and get back to us, gee I am not sure about the way your instructor does it but I have found for me what works is Many different ways of sugar coating medicine and none too difficult or time consuming to work into replying posts even if the "you are an idiot and doing it all wrong" rants might feel better LOL.

Most important I think is the realization that you cannot fix or heal everyone so in my opinion so the thing is to gain benefit for yourself while extending the hand, you might help two or more that way but at the very least you help one. 

Regards
Brian King


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