# Benefits without intent?



## SFC JeffJ (Aug 11, 2006)

Looking for Tai Chi instruction, I've mostly found instructors that have no knowledge, nor the desire to learn, about the martial application of Tai Chi.  That got me thinking.

Would studying Tai Chi without the combative intent have all the health and wellness benefits as learning with the martial aspects intact?

Jeff


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## Drac (Aug 11, 2006)

JeffJ said:
			
		

> Would studying Tai Chi without the combative intent have all the health and wellness benefits as learning with the martial aspects intact?


 
An excellent questions..I will await the answers with you..


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## Shrewsbury (Aug 11, 2006)

Unfortunatly many do not know the combat side of any internal arts. Taichi has been over taken by a health movement, which is great for health, but bad for tai chi.

I have met hundreds of instructors who know little about how to use tai chi in combat, among those that do, I find that just a very small percent really know how to apply the art. many use the art externally, claiming that with softness or slowness they are internal, bad news, this is not so.

The internal aspects of combat are being lost and have been being lost for decades and it won't be long till they are all but gone, I really hope to change this in what ever way I can, I owe the martial arts much, it has given me alot over the last few decades and will return what I can.

Now I guess I should get back to your question.



> Would studying Tai Chi without the combative intent have all the health and wellness benefits as learning with the martial aspects intact?


 
No, though it would still promote health because of the physical and mental movements, it will lose the real health values on internal arts.
the relaxation, whole but sperate body movement, and quiet mind can only be reached through practice of application in conjunction with solo practice and a real good teacher to guide you.


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 11, 2006)

Shrewsbury said:
			
		

> Unfortunatly many do not know the combat side of any internal arts. Taichi has been over taken by a health movement, which is great for health, but bad for tai chi.
> 
> I have met hundreds of instructors who know little about how to use tai chi in combat, among those that do, I find that just a very small percent really know how to apply the art. many use the art externally, claiming that with softness or slowness they are internal, bad news, this is not so.
> 
> ...


 
I cannot tell how much I agree ALL of this.

Couldn&#8217;t have said it better myself, actually I probably would have started ranting again to be honest, so it&#8217;s a good thing that Shrewsbury answered before me.

What styles have you been checking?


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## 7starmantis (Aug 11, 2006)

I dont think I can agree completely with Shrewsbury. I agree that the martial aspects of taiji are all but gone and are fading even faster. However I can't say that practicing Tai Chi without the martial intent voids its health benefits. There are many many benefits of Tai Chi and they do not all rely on martial intent. The physical benefits of Tai Chi are being used in western medicine without the martial intent. I am most certianly not a proponent of tai chi without the martial aspects, but I can see beyond the internal or intent. Physical Therapist are starting to use Tai Chi for rehabilitation and it works wonders. Is it lacking to study it without martial intent, yes. We do not teach it without the martial intent, but there are many, many people who have received great physical health benefits from practicing tai chi who are simply not interested in the martial application. Elderly for an example gain great benefits from the practice and are truly unable or uninterested in practicing martial applications. So are some of the benefits lost without the application, of course. In fact ALOT is lost, but not all.

So, to your question, No, studying without the martial intent would not have ALL the health benefits. However it would still have great health benefits.

JMHO,
 7sm


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## SFC JeffJ (Aug 11, 2006)

Rats!! The whole idea behind this was to get another XS rant going!!

But seriously, thanks for the thoughts on this matter.  It won't be too much longer before I start up Tai Chi, and from what I've seen, the instructor I"m going too seems like the real deal.  I hope I'll be able to keep that opinion.

Jeff


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## Elayna (Aug 11, 2006)

I agree with 7.

I have seen Tai Chi work wonders. I think just because it puts a person in the right mindset to help their body heal itself. I cant say for sure if its Tai Chi, or if its the person.
And I cant say if not having martial intent helps or not.  But all I know is from what I have seen, those who use Tai Chi, without martial intent do get a huge health benefit. Maybe not as much as if they knew everything about the art and how to really practice it, but still benefit none the less.

I also think, that we need something like Tai chi out there for those who cant do arts like Judo, or Aikido or things like that.  Elderly, the young, and those who are not physically able, Tai Chi is just the thing.

Anyways...Just my 2 cents.


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 11, 2006)

Elayna said:
			
		

> I also think, that we need something like Tai chi out there for those who cant do arts like Judo, or Aikido or things like that. Elderly, the young, and those who are not physically able, Tai Chi is just the thing.


 
You obviously never saw me do push hands with my last Sifu


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 11, 2006)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> I dont think I can agree completely with Shrewsbury. I agree that the martial aspects of taiji are all but gone and are fading even faster. However I can't say that practicing Tai Chi without the martial intent voids its health benefits. There are many many benefits of Tai Chi and they do not all rely on martial intent. The physical benefits of Tai Chi are being used in western medicine without the martial intent. I am most certianly not a proponent of tai chi without the martial aspects, but I can see beyond the internal or intent. Physical Therapist are starting to use Tai Chi for rehabilitation and it works wonders. Is it lacking to study it without martial intent, yes. We do not teach it without the martial intent, but there are many, many people who have received great physical health benefits from practicing tai chi who are simply not interested in the martial application. Elderly for an example gain great benefits from the practice and are truly unable or uninterested in practicing martial applications. So are some of the benefits lost without the application, of course. In fact ALOT is lost, but not all.
> 
> So, to your question, No, studying without the martial intent would not have ALL the health benefits. However it would still have great health benefits.
> 
> ...


 
Allow me to clarify; I was in RANT mode before and trying to not rant.

Tai Chi, particularly Yang style, is fading fast as a martial art. And this is the type of thing that gets me a rantin' :soapbox: 

As to the health benefits.

Yes there are health benefits to Tai chi without the martial arts. There are health benefits to Tai Chi forms without the internal work too. 

But these benefits are lessened by the removal of the internal work and martial side.


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## Elayna (Aug 11, 2006)

I am definatly going to have to do some reasearch into Tai Chi....
I have to honestly say, that until like 6 or 7 months ago, I never knew Tai Chi was a martial Arts. LOL...I know Im a ditz.

So anyways...I wont say anymore on the subject till i get my butt online and in the book stores and do some major research. LOL.

But I do have to say...That if it works for those people that is works for I think its great.  But....I also think the option should be given to include and know about the martial intent or not.
Kinda like different levels for different people that are ready for it you know. Because I would hate to see something good like Tai Chi not be used because it becomes strictly martial arts you know.
But anyways....Just a thought. 

To Google....LOL.


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## Shrewsbury (Aug 11, 2006)

Mr 7 perhaps we are mis understanding eachother


you stated




> So, to your question, No, studying without the martial intent would not have ALL the health benefits. However it would still have great health benefits.


 
I stated



> No, though it would still promote health because of the physical and mental movements, it will lose the real health values on internal arts.


 
so I am unsure why you disagree with me, we seem to be stating the same thing.

Perhaps I am not writing clearly (which wouldn't surprise me) what I was trying to say is that with out learning the true combat methods one will not learn the real "internal" workings of the art. the use of whole body comes to a new and different level when one begins to learn to apply the moves to another person, the mechanics are honed much deeper.

not to start a controversy but you could take just about any form, whether gung fu, karate or what ever, slow it down, relax the body and mind and begin to listen to your body and it will generate great health results just like tai chi in a non combative form does, and I promote this, I promote anything that promotes health and longevity.

when one learn the methods of using internals in combat it greatly improves these skills and the understanding of your own body at a whole other level.


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## East Winds (Aug 11, 2006)

O.K. Here I go puting the cat amongst the pigeons. Taiji IS a martial art. If you practise it without the martial aspect, you are not practising Taiji!! You may be practising something that looks like taiji, but it won't be. It would be like playing golf without a ball. Its a nice walk, but that's all it is.  Without martial intent, you will get as much benefit by doing line dancing. (Sorry to all you line dancers out there!!)

Now Xue Sheng, get in there and lets have a rant!!!!!!

Very best wishes


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 11, 2006)

East Winds said:
			
		

> O.K. Here I go puting the cat amongst the pigeons. Taiji IS a martial art. If you practise it without the martial aspect, you are not practising Taiji!! You may be practising something that looks like taiji, but it won't be. It would be like playing golf without a ball. Its a nice walk, but that's all it is. Without martial intent, you will get as much benefit by doing line dancing. (Sorry to all you line dancers out there!!)
> 
> Now Xue Sheng, get in there and lets have a rant!!!!!!
> 
> Very best wishes


 
Nah youre doing a good job on your own, you don't need me. 

And a quick note on golf, I tend to agree with Mark Twain, and this comment will no doubt get me a beating

"Golf is a good walk ruined" - Mark Twain


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## 7starmantis (Aug 11, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> Yes there are health benefits to Tai chi without the martial arts. There are health benefits to Tai Chi forms without the internal work too.
> 
> But these benefits are lessened by the removal of the internal work and martial side.



I agree 100%. 



			
				Shrewsbury said:
			
		

> so I am unsure why you disagree with me, we seem to be stating the same thing.


True we agree quite a bit here, but I was specifically refering to this part of your post.


			
				Shrewsbury said:
			
		

> the relaxation, whole but sperate body movement, and quiet mind can only be reached through practice of application in conjunction with solo practice and a real good teacher to guide you.


I dont completely agree with that. Whole but seperate body movement and a quite mind are things that can be achieved without the martial application to Taiji. Thats simply by belief on the matter. I wasn't tryign to say you were wrong or anything, I just wanted to post my beliefs on it. Again, I'm not a proponent of applicationless taiji, I just dont believe all the benefits to be tied to martial application. The physical benefits are there regardless of the intent. Thats all I was trying to say.



			
				Shrewsbury said:
			
		

> Perhaps I am not writing clearly (which wouldn't surprise me) what I was trying to say is that with out learning the true combat methods one will not learn the real "internal" workings of the art. the use of whole body comes to a new and different level when one begins to learn to apply the moves to another person, the mechanics are honed much deeper.
> 
> not to start a controversy but you could take just about any form, whether gung fu, karate or what ever, slow it down, relax the body and mind and begin to listen to your body and it will generate great health results just like tai chi in a non combative form does, and I promote this, I promote anything that promotes health and longevity.
> 
> when one learn the methods of using internals in combat it greatly improves these skills and the understanding of your own body at a whole other level.


I agree and I think we are on the same page, I just wanted to clarify one point that I disagreed with. 



			
				East Winds said:
			
		

> O.K. Here I go puting the cat amongst the pigeons. Taiji IS a martial art. If you practise it without the martial aspect, you are not practising Taiji!! You may be practising something that looks like taiji, but it won't be. It would be like playing golf without a ball. Its a nice walk, but that's all it is. Without martial intent, you will get as much benefit by doing line dancing. (Sorry to all you line dancers out there!!)
> 
> Now Xue Sheng, get in there and lets have a rant!!!!!!
> 
> Very best wishes


I also disagree with this to a point. Taiji is a martial arts, your correct. I dont know that I would say your not practicing it if you remove the martial applications. Are you still practicing Kung Fu if you learn the forms, drills, etc but do not work serious application? Isn't that what we call wushu? Are the physical health benefits less with either? I feel the same way you do about the martial applications, its what taiji is and your not studying it completely without it, but it simply doesn't remove the health benefits to exclude it. The nature of taiji produces health benefits, like it or not they are there and people can gain from them by practicing taiji without getting into application and push hands. An elderly woman recovering from a stroke will most certainly not get the same benefits from line dancing that she will from taiji. As a physical therapist I could use many parts of taiji to bring physical health benefits to patients who are not interested in learning martial aplpication or really even taiji. There are many ways to use taiji and helping someone with health is one of them. Once again, I'm not suggesting teaching taiji without the martial applications as that is what taiji is, however people can and do receive health benefits from practicing taiji without learning or practicing martial aplications. The health benefits are documented and are most assuredly more than line dancing. Are they learning true taiji, no. Are they understanding taiji, no. Are they receiving health benefits, yes. 

7sm


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 11, 2006)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> II also disagree with this to a point. Taiji is a martial arts, your correct. I dont know that I would say your not practicing it if you remove the martial applications. Are you still practicing Kung Fu if you learn the forms, drills, etc but do not work serious application? Isn't that what we call wushu? Are the physical health benefits less with either? I feel the same way you do about the martial applications, its what taiji is and your not studying it completely without it, but it simply doesn't remove the health benefits to exclude it. The nature of taiji produces health benefits, like it or not they are there and people can gain from them by practicing taiji without getting into application and push hands. An elderly woman recovering from a stroke will most certainly not get the same benefits from line dancing that she will from taiji. As a physical therapist I could use many parts of taiji to bring physical health benefits to patients who are not interested in learning martial aplpication or really even taiji. There are many ways to use taiji and helping someone with health is one of them. Once again, I'm not suggesting teaching taiji without the martial applications as that is what taiji is, however people can and do receive health benefits from practicing taiji without learning or practicing martial aplications. The health benefits are documented and are most assuredly more than line dancing. Are they learning true taiji, no. Are they understanding taiji, no. Are they receiving health benefits, yes.
> 
> 7sm


 
What about Tai Chi line dancing 

What I think you are talking about here is what I refer to as the Tai Chi health dance or Tai Chi lite. 

I agree you do get health benefits from it, your example of the "elderly woman recovering from a stroke" If she does Tai Chi, just the forms and nothing else she may gain some strength and may gain some focus to help her recover. And to be honest I have no problem with this aspect of Tai Chi in this type of situation. Would she gain more if the internal was added? Most assuredly. Would she gain more if the MA was added? Possibly not in this type of situation. It could possibly injure her. But in a normal circumstance all the parts are necessary for the full benefit, and we appear to agree on that. 

I think the problem occurs when people runs off and learn a tai chi form or 12 and then go off and tell everyone they do Tai chi or make statements like I don't DO martial arts "I DO tai chi" (Yes, that one someone actually said to me). But I will stop there because like I said I am trying not to go into a rant about this, like I have done sooooo many times before.

MUST..... NOT....RANT...... FEEL RANTING COMING ON&#8230; MUST SIGN OFF&#8230;BEFORE&#8230;I &#8230;. RANT


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 11, 2006)

JeffJ said:
			
		

> Rats!! The whole idea behind this was to get another XS rant going!!
> 
> But seriously, thanks for the thoughts on this matter. It won't be too much longer before I start up Tai Chi, and from what I've seen, the instructor I"m going too seems like the real deal. I hope I'll be able to keep that opinion.
> 
> Jeff


 
keep us posted and what style are we talking about?


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## SFC JeffJ (Aug 11, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> keep us posted and what style are we talking about?


It's one of the Chen styles.  Ming if I remember correctly.  But I could be pulling that out of nowhere.

Jeff


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## Carol (Aug 11, 2006)

Rant!  Rant!  Rant!  Rant!

The thing is XueSheng, when you rant, we all learn.  

Come on, you know you want to!

Rant!  Rant!  Rant!  Rant! 

artyon:


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## Ceicei (Aug 11, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> MUST..... NOT....RANT...... FEEL RANTING COMING ON&#8230; MUST SIGN OFF&#8230;BEFORE&#8230;I &#8230;. RANT





			
				Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> Rant!  Rant!  Rant!  Rant!  The thing is XueSheng, when you rant, we all learn.  Come on, you know you want to!  Rant!  Rant!  Rant!  Rant! artyon:


Oh, yes!!!   Rant some more!  Xue Sheng, come on!!!  Surely there's more you can rant about!  You have a way of making very good points when you rant instead of some mindless dribble.

- Ceicei


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## 7starmantis (Aug 11, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> What about Tai Chi line dancing
> 
> What I think you are talking about here is what I refer to as the Tai Chi health dance or Tai Chi lite.
> 
> I agree you do get health benefits from it, your example of the "elderly woman recovering from a stroke" If she does Tai Chi, just the forms and nothing else she may gain some strength and may gain some focus to help her recover. And to be honest I have no problem with this aspect of Tai Chi in this type of situation. Would she gain more if the internal was added? Most assuredly. Would she gain more if the MA was added? Possibly not in this type of situation. It could possibly injure her. But in a normal circumstance all the parts are necessary for the full benefit, and we appear to agree on that.


Yes we do, and to further my point I think the physical benefits of regained motion in joints, flexability, balance, etc are so important and benficial to these types of people. I get on a rant of my own when people say we should abandon using taiji for this situation. Why should we hide the benefits of taiji from someone just because they dont want or cant practice the MA? I hate that, thats taking away from what taiji actually is. 



			
				Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> I think the problem occurs when people runs off and learn a tai chi form or 12 and then go off and tell everyone they do Tai chi or make statements like I don't DO martial arts "I DO tai chi" (Yes, that one someone actually said to me). But I will stop there because like I said I am trying not to go into a rant about this, like I have done sooooo many times before.



Yes Yes, we agree completely here! I can't stand that at all. However, it is a great warning system to know if I'm dealing with a nutcase or a serious taiji student  If they start making statements like that I can generally just write them off and not waste any more of my precious time or energy on them  

7sm


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 11, 2006)

JeffJ said:
			
		

> It's one of the Chen styles. Ming if I remember correctly. But I could be pulling that out of nowhere.
> 
> Jeff


 
OK, Im confused

Chen I know

Cheng Manching I know. 

Ming I do not.

But that's ok, just keep us posted.

And before I go CHEN STYLE IS SO COOL... OK I feel better now.


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 11, 2006)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> Yes Yes, we agree completely here! I can't stand that at all. However, it is a great warning system to know if I'm dealing with a nutcase or a serious taiji student  If they start making statements like that I can generally just write them off and not waste any more of my precious time or energy on them
> 
> 7sm


 
Yup, that's what I did. I looked at him and much to his surprise I turned from his magnificence and walked away

At that time I was only studying Traditional Yang with my ex-Sifu and practicing Chen on my own, which I had learned from my previous Sifu. Where he had studied Sun, Yang, Wu, and Wu/Hao, Chen&#8230;..*FORMS*&#8230; But in his extensive years of study&#8230;.*TWO*&#8230;.. he had become a master of Tai Chi that did not do martial arts&#8230;


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 11, 2006)

Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> Rant! Rant! Rant! Rant!
> 
> The thing is XueSheng, when you rant, we all learn.
> 
> ...


 


			
				Ceicei said:
			
		

> Oh, yes!!! Rant some more! Xue Sheng, come on!!! Surely there's more you can rant about! You have a way of making very good points when you rant instead of some mindless dribble.
> 
> - Ceicei


 
And blow all that money I have been spending at Ranters anonymous...

You can tell one is building can't you


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## Carol (Aug 11, 2006)

To heck with Ranter's Anonymous!  Venting is GOOD for you.  Gets rid of bad energy.  Plus your rants are the GOOD kind of rants not the bad kind of rants.

Please?  For someone that lives off Route 114 near your old stomping grounds?    Please?


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 11, 2006)

Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> To heck with Ranter's Anonymous! Venting is GOOD for you. Gets rid of bad energy. Plus your rants are the GOOD kind of rants not the bad kind of rants.
> 
> Please? For someone that lives off Route 114 near your old stomping grounds?  Please?


 
Ahh yes the wharf, the willows, the common and of course the House of 7 gables....

Nope never been there I lived on Herrick road off Lowell street.


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## Fu_Bag (Aug 11, 2006)

You know, if the main problem is that people aren't doing the movments with MartialIntent, he's a member of this site.  Just convince him to lead a bunch of classes.  On a more serious note, are you guys saying that Tai Chi can help to improve the Boot Scootin' Boogie?  This could really revolutionize the whole wedding scene......  Fantastic!!!!!


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## pstarr (Aug 12, 2006)

For what it's worth, I don't believe that Taijiquan can be practiced correctly without learning its martial content.

But I do agree that it has wonderful therapeutic properties and can be very beneficial to persons suffering from a variety of ailments.  Of course, it's best used as a _health maintenance_ technique- strengthening the body and the immune system.  It's always easier to prevent than to cure.


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## East Winds (Aug 12, 2006)

O.K. So I was stirring the pot a bit and probably engaging in a bit of semantics. Yes, I also teach "Tai Chi" for health. I also run courses for physiotherapists to assist with fall prevention in the elderly. But my main point still, I think, is relevant. Would you be doing Judo, Tai Kwon Do or Karate if you never worked with a partner? Would you still be doing Wing Chun if you never worked with a dummy? So why should Taijiquan be so different. If we were totally honest, we would say that Tai Chi was a convenient hook to hang our exercise programmes on. Should we not be totally honest and say that we teach an exercise programme "based" on Tai Chi? Should we not retain the name Tai Chi for the true form that is the martial art? I once had a person who came to class and said they had been doing Tai Chi for years. When I asked which style, the reply was "Oh I'm not sure, but we stood in a circle holding hands with a candle in the middle of the floor"!!! Xue Sheng would have been proud of my rant!!!!! To get the real health benefits of taiji, bodies need to be properly aligned as in the martial application. Only by learning how to generate and apply the energies of taijiquan can true health benefits be found. And my analogy of line dancing still applies. Any moving exercise is good for you whether gentle or vigorous. If I did line dancing slowly would it not have the same effect as "Tai Chi"?

O.K. that's me off my soap box.

Xue Sheng, you've got a lot to answer for!!!!!!!!

Very best wishes

Alistair Sutherland


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## Jade Tigress (Aug 12, 2006)

Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> Rant!  Rant!  Rant!  Rant!
> 
> The thing is XueSheng, when you rant, we all learn.



I couldn't agree more.


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 12, 2006)

East Winds said:
			
		

> But my main point still, I think, is relevant. Would you be doing Judo, Tai Kwon Do or Karate if you never worked with a partner? Would you still be doing Wing Chun if you never worked with a dummy? So why should Taijiquan be so different. If we were totally honest, we would say that Tai Chi was a convenient hook to hang our exercise programmes on. Should we not be totally honest and say that we teach an exercise programme "based" on Tai Chi? Should we not retain the name Tai Chi for the true form that is the martial art? I once had a person who came to class and said they had been doing Tai Chi for years. When I asked which style, the reply was "Oh I'm not sure, but we stood in a circle holding hands with a candle in the middle of the floor"!!! Xue Sheng would have been proud of my rant!!!!! To get the real health benefits of taiji, bodies need to be properly aligned as in the martial application. Only by learning how to generate and apply the energies of taijiquan can true health benefits be found. And my analogy of line dancing still applies. Any moving exercise is good for you whether gentle or vigorous. If I did line dancing slowly would it not have the same effect as "Tai Chi"?





			
				East Winds said:
			
		

> Xue Sheng, you've got a lot to answer for!!!!!!!!



OK, I can't let East Wind stand out here all by himself ranting. And I have to say I agree with much of what he is saying. 

Here&#8217;s what you have all been waiting for, the people at Ranters anonymous will probably kick me out of the class, and I hope you are all happy. And I might be going a bit off what Jeffj&#8217;s post &#8220;Benefits without intent?&#8221; is about, but here goes.

- BEGIN RANT &#8211; 

I think we are pretty much all in agreement here that Tai Chi for health has its benefits. I also think we are all pretty much in agreement that Tai Chi with Martial Arts intact has more. I generally, in all truthfulness consider Tai Chi for health an offshoot of Tai Chi for martial arts with fewer benefits. And as long as the person teaching that type of Tai Chi makes ABSOLULTLY sure that he or she is teaching at least the postures and form currently with proper alignment and BREATHING, throw in the internal too and I have to admit I really have no complaints about this, it is not for me, but it ain&#8217;t bad for what it is claiming to be. If they are not doing at least breathing and posture you may be giving someone more strength and flexibility but they are doing nothing else, and a dance class can do the same for you. If this teacher calls his or her class the Tai Chi dance class once again I have no problem since they at least understand what is going on and are honest about it. This by the way is what my long time sifu turned into to gain more students. And to me that is MUCH worse than someone who just doesn&#8217;t know any better. And to be honest he doesn&#8217;t much push forms correctness any more either. I do believe his teacher would be very very angry at what he has done. But enough about my issues, back to the issue at hand.

Now what you generally run into in this big world when you are looking for a Tai chi class is the guy like I previously referred to, that master of 5 family styles in only 2 years that did not do martial arts. This is the guy that is KILLING tai chi faster than those of use with real training can do anything about it. Or the person East wind ran into that stood around in a circle holding hands, I am surprised they weren&#8217;t singing Kumbaya to be honest and calling it singing and dancing Tai Chi of Yang Chen Astaire. 

I once had a conversation with a guy, who by that time was doing real Tai Chi with the Yang family. We were talking about Chen style vs. Yang style. I said my personal preference was Chen he told me all other Tai Chi style suck by comparison to Yang and he knew this because he had studied another Tai Chi before and they never moved their arms and the steps were to short. I asked him what style, he couldn&#8217;t remember and then I did a bit of Chen, which I could remember. I said THAT&#8217;S Chen style and ALL REAL Tai chi styles move your arms. He was amazed, and I once again walked away. 

The problem is lack of understanding, lack of desire to understand, out right prejudice, arrogance, politics and/or lack of education in the art they are teaching in many people out there teaching what they call Tai Chi. 

And Sadly Yang style is the biggest victim of this. Chen may or may not follow, I am not sure, the postures are lower and many Chen classes and practitioners still practice the MA side. But not all do, my pal the 2 year 5 family grand master did Chen&#8230;. Badly. 

He also did Tai Chi Sanshou and I did some with him before his &#8220;I don&#8217;t do&#8221; statement. I saw so many places were he was limp and vulnerable but I did not take advantage of that. But after we were done he did tell me &#8220;Don&#8217;t worry you&#8217;ll get it eventually&#8221;. 

This guy teaches Tai chi and I absolutely guarantee you that there is no health benefit from training with him. The postures are wrong, the breathing is wrong and worst of all, his attitude is wrong. 

Tai chi with the martial arts intact is by far the best for health benefits, but I have no problem with a Tai Chi class that focuses on health as long as they admit to it. I had a student once that was 78 years old. He just wanted to be able to walk without worrying about falling. Tai chi for health was perfect for him. Tai chi with martial arts would have hospitalized him, which is what he was trying to avoid. So both of these are fine with me but it is the 2 year 5 family grand masters that are the ones to watch out for.

- END RANT -


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## East Winds (Aug 12, 2006)

Nice to have the old Xue Sheng back!!!!!

Best wishes

Alistair Sutherland


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## Shrewsbury (Aug 12, 2006)

Nice post Xue Sheng.

I have not found a forum that has had the CMA's represented well, or should I say to my liking. I often find arrogance and ignorence hand in hand and have just moved on rather than getting caught up in the junk.

I feel the martial arts our a huge part of who I am, and since i was introduced as a child i have beem able to grow up with them, now at 37 I have a succesful career, excellent family, and still enjoy the arts like i did as a child. I guess what I am saying is perhaps I have found a new CMA forum home.

I agree that tai chi taught as strictly a health art is fine and is one part of what tai chi is about. physical and mental health, self healing, self defense, spiritualism, self descipline, and more all are parts of tai chi, and really all the internal arts and in my opinion external arts.

I share with a church group once a week the physical and mental health aspect of yang tai chi and various qi and nei gong, so I am certainly not saying tai chi isn't an art when taught for health, nor does it lack health benefits. what i am trying to say if you had two people equal in all things, that's the catch they would have to be equall in everything, but one of these two only studied postures, forms, and basics, of course with all the correct mechanics and theory, the other person did the same but also practiced hands on and free fighting methods with various partners, the latter would reap better health benefits and also understand the art more completely, again this is considering all else is equal.

one of the most important aspects of tai chi, in my humble opinion, is blending, and the only good way, or should i say the best way in my opinion, to understand blending is by various partner practice and of course various speeds of practice, this builds an internal rythmn that is otherwise hard to find. in my humble opinion this is one of the important methods of the internal arts that is being lost.


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## 7starmantis (Aug 13, 2006)

Great post, I agree 100%. Also, its good to see you are enjoying your time here at MT. I look forward to reading more of your posts. 

7sm


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