# hands and head



## marlon (Jul 5, 2005)

Many of the hawaiain kempo techniques i have learn and the shaolin kempo techniques include punches to the head.  My guess is that htias is b/c of the boxing component from our kajukenbo heritage.  However, punching the head with out gloves can cause a lot of damage to us.  Should techniques be modified to take this into consideration?  All or some or none?

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Jul 5, 2005)

marlon said:
			
		

> Many of the hawaiain kempo techniques i have learn and the shaolin kempo techniques include punches to the head. My guess is that htias is b/c of the boxing component from our kajukenbo heritage. However, punching the head with out gloves can cause a lot of damage to us. Should techniques be modified to take this into consideration? All or some or none?
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon


This holds true with pretty much all arts, they teach you to punch to the head, it's just most don't show you to hit a specific part of the head. One of the first things I teach my students is to never hit to the front of the face with any weapon. Teeth are dislodged into knuckles and heel palms all the time, and striking to the bridge of the nose will most certainly cause a hemorrhage. I don't want to catch whatever it is they MAY have by them bleeding out. Not to mention the fact that most people don't condition their hands for impact to any target, much less a hard one like the head. I've seen lots of people break their own weapons hitting an opponent. All this talk about speed and power is cool until you realize just how fragile the human body is if not conditioned properly.

DarK LorD


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## MJS (Jul 5, 2005)

marlon said:
			
		

> Many of the hawaiain kempo techniques i have learn and the shaolin kempo techniques include punches to the head.  My guess is that htias is b/c of the boxing component from our kajukenbo heritage.  However, punching the head with out gloves can cause a lot of damage to us.  Should techniques be modified to take this into consideration?  All or some or none?
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon



Elbows, hammerfists and palms, even used in a slapping fashion are all other options that you can use.  Even with a glove, it does not always ensure that your hand will be free from a break.  Not having proper hand position is one of the main causes of a break.

Mike


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## Seabrook (Jul 5, 2005)

marlon said:
			
		

> Many of the hawaiain kempo techniques i have learn and the shaolin kempo techniques include punches to the head. My guess is that htias is b/c of the boxing component from our kajukenbo heritage. However, punching the head with out gloves can cause a lot of damage to us. Should techniques be modified to take this into consideration? All or some or none?
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon


The answer is, it depends. If punching to the head with bare knuckles, be sure to have good accuracy in your targets. A straight, lead-hand jab, for example, to the nose (hence, a soft spot) can end a fight really quick without causing damage to your hand. The same can be said of a back-knuckle strike to say, the temple or jaw area (think of the quick back-knuckle at the end of Alternating Maces).  

But, you're right. A claw down the opponent's face is just outright nasty, as are leopard strikes to the throat, handswords to the neck, heelpalms to the chin, ect. All of these are relatively safe to your hands, while lethal to your opponent. 

Hope that helps.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## Doc (Jul 5, 2005)

Seabrook said:
			
		

> The answer is, it depends. If punching to the head with bare knuckles, be sure to have good accuracy in your targets. A straight, lead-hand jab, for example, to the nose (hence, a soft spot) can end a fight really quick without causing damage to your hand. The same can be said of a back-knuckle strike to say, the temple or jaw area (think of the quick back-knuckle at the end of Alternating Maces).
> 
> But, you're right. A claw down the opponent's face is just outright nasty, as are leopard strikes to the throat, handswords to the neck, heelpalms to the chin, ect. All of these are relatively safe to your hands, while lethal to your opponent.
> 
> ...


Been paying attention huh? Mr. Parker always said to me, "Hit hard with soft, hit soft with hard." Simple.


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## Sapper6 (Jul 5, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> "Hit hard with soft, hit soft with hard." Simple.



damn, i was gonna say that  

yeah, what he said.


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## John Bishop (Jul 6, 2005)

marlon said:
			
		

> Many of the hawaiain kempo techniques i have learn and the shaolin kempo techniques include punches to the head. My guess is that htias is b/c of the boxing component from our kajukenbo heritage. However, punching the head with out gloves can cause a lot of damage to us. Should techniques be modified to take this into consideration? All or some or none?
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon


 It does not come from "Kajukenbo", since punches to the head are pretty rare in Kajukenbo.  In fact right now I can't really think of any of our  techniques that have head punches, other then a few uppercuts.
 We do train against a attacker who attempts to punch you in the face like a boxer would, but that's not how we counter strike.  
 Most of our strikes to the head are either bottomfist or chops to the jaw hinge, uppercuts under the jaw (a few), or  eye pokes and rakes.
 Many of the  Kajukenbo hand strikes are rooted in the Escrima premise of limb destruction, in that the muscles or joints of the attacking limb are struck or disjointed.
 I'm in total agreement, that you don't strike a target thats stronger then the tool that your hitting it with.


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## Seabrook (Jul 6, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> Been paying attention huh? Mr. Parker always said to me, "Hit hard with soft, hit soft with hard." Simple.


With your knowledge Doc, I will give you the title of Yoda, as long as I can be Obi-Wan. 

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## Doc (Jul 6, 2005)

Seabrook said:
			
		

> With your knowledge Doc, I will give you the title of Yoda, as long as I can be Obi-Wan.
> 
> Jamie Seabrook
> www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


The force is strong with this one.


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## kenposikh (Jul 6, 2005)

Seabrook said:
			
		

> With your knowledge Doc, I will give you the title of Yoda, as long as I can be Obi-Wan.


 
Hey Jamie,

I'm afraid that role is already taken ask anyone who was in Ryans Bar while we were over recently the number of Jedi's in that place was unbelieveable


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## Doc (Jul 6, 2005)

kenposikh said:
			
		

> Hey Jamie,
> 
> I'm afraid that role is already taken ask anyone who was in Ryans Bar while we were over recently the number of Jedi's in that place was unbelieveable


Yeah there are several of my students that would give you a run for that one. Wake up Amerik, I didn't hit you that hard.


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## Seabrook (Jul 7, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> Yeah there are several of my students that would give you a run for that one. Wake up Amerik, I didn't hit you that hard.


I don't like your tone Doc. It sounds like you are part of some council, ripping me out of my Jedi title. I may may have to seek knowledge from other forces, lol. 

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## Doc (Jul 7, 2005)

Seabrook said:
			
		

> I don't like your tone Doc. It sounds like you are part of some council, ripping me out of my Jedi title. I may may have to seek knowledge from other forces, lol.
> 
> Jamie Seabrook
> www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


Duh! Where you gonna go? I'm already on the dark side. These are not the droids you're looking for. Go on about your business.


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## jonah2 (Jul 7, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> These are not the droids you're looking for.


Sir Alec - As I live and Breath


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## Sigung86 (Jul 8, 2005)

jonah2 said:
			
		

> Sir Alec - As I live and Breath



Chair would like to put nominations on the floor for "Sir Doc"! 
 :ultracool  :ultracool  :ultracool


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## Doc (Jul 8, 2005)

Sigung86 said:
			
		

> Chair would like to put nominations on the floor for "Sir Doc"!
> :ultracool  :ultracool  :ultracool


ONLY if you come to California and train.


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## SK101 (Feb 16, 2007)

marlon said:


> Many of the hawaiain kempo techniques i have learn and the shaolin kempo techniques include punches to the head.  My guess is that htias is b/c of the boxing component from our kajukenbo heritage.  However, punching the head with out gloves can cause a lot of damage to us.  Should techniques be modified to take this into consideration?  All or some or none?
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon



Hello Marlon, 

   I would say the big issue for SK with head shots would be DM #3. The only other knuckle strike early on is the back punch to the chin of #2. I wouldn't worry to much about someone breaking a knuckle by missing the chin, but it is a very real issue with 3 since a small miss on the back punch could hit some thick areas of the skull. I would say it is a good idea to teach it as a palm strike first and a back punch later. How many yellow belts have such good accuracy that they would be unlikely to miss a moving temple. 

   I was told by one of the Masters that 3 long ago was a brown belt technique. That does not surprise me since it has so many details and requires excellent accuracy so that you don't break the knuckle.


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## bushidomartialarts (Feb 16, 2007)

one relevant point is the kind of training that was done until we americans got hold of the art (no judgment here -- i think it's evolved positively for the most part).

practicioners used to condition their hands in ways we would consider insane.  punching trees.  treating fractures with linaments to produce bone scarring.  it wasn't uncommon for old-timers to have frozen joints in their hands and fingers.

the idea of punching the head came from those hard core old-timers (even older than doc and his contemporaries).

punching a head with that sort of hand isn't terribly risky.

punching a head with a hand used to typing at a keyboard or even just pulling beer out of a truck -- that's a recipe for trouble.


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## DavidCC (Feb 16, 2007)

SK101 said:


> Hello Marlon,
> 
> I would say the big issue for SK with head shots would be DM #3. The only other knuckle strike early on is the back punch to the chin of #2. I wouldn't worry to much about someone breaking a knuckle by missing the chin, but it is a very real issue with 3 since a small miss on the back punch could hit some thick areas of the skull. I would say it is a good idea to teach it as a palm strike first and a back punch later. How many yellow belts have such good accuracy that they would be unlikely to miss a moving temple.
> 
> I was told by one of the Masters that 3 long ago was a brown belt technique. That does not surprise me since it has so many details and requires excellent accuracy so that you don't break the knuckle.


 
Well, IMHO, hitting the tip of the chin wth the back of my hand seems a heck of a lot more likely to injure my hand than the back-2-knuckle punch to the head, even in the worst case.

In #3 the back fist could miss the temple, but even if it hits the hardest part of the skull, I don't think you are going to be able to get enough resistance to your force there to break your hand.  The head is too mobile on top of a body that should be out of balance.  The upward angle of the blow should cause the hand to skip off.  The position of your body at this point in the technique also limits the amount of power than can really be developed in this shot, too - this is not a high-power blow here.

Crashing my carpal bones perpenidcular into the tip of the mandible, now that's a recipe for fracture....

just my opinion, I;ve never been actually injured by either.

-D


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## Gufbal1982 (Feb 22, 2007)

DavidCC said:


> Well, IMHO, hitting the tip of the chin wth the back of my hand seems a heck of a lot more likely to injure my hand than the back-2-knuckle punch to the head, even in the worst case.
> 
> In #3 the back fist could miss the temple, but even if it hits the hardest part of the skull, I don't think you are going to be able to get enough resistance to your force there to break your hand.  The head is too mobile on top of a body that should be out of balance.  The upward angle of the blow should cause the hand to skip off.  The position of your body at this point in the technique also limits the amount of power than can really be developed in this shot, too - this is not a high-power blow here.
> 
> ...



From the way I was taught, the back 2 knuckle strike should be a glancing strike.  Remember that you do have a hold of their shirt with the other hand.  You're sorta pinning them so you can land the strike.  Plus, also take into account that if you are doing this on the street, adrenaline kicks in.  You won't feel a broken knuckle until 10 seconds later or something like that...I have to check my anatomy book just to make sure, so don't quote me on it.


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## Joe Shuras (Feb 23, 2007)

marlon said:


> Many of the hawaiain kempo techniques i have learn and the shaolin kempo techniques include punches to the head. My guess is that htias is b/c of the boxing component from our kajukenbo heritage. However, punching the head with out gloves can cause a lot of damage to us. Should techniques be modified to take this into consideration? All or some or none?
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon


 
Hi Marlon, John is correct, the head shots (punches) in Shaolin Kempo did not come from Kajukenbo but came from it's New England heritage. Providence, Rhode Island was one of New England's boxing mecas (the hometown of Vinny Paz) and SGM. George Pesare (founder of New England Kempo) added the boxing techniques. This is why his one school put out two PKA (Professional Karate Association) World Kickboxing champs, two United States Kickboxing champs and a New England Heavyweight Kickboxing champ. His kickboxers were not all black belts in the art but he changed this in the mid to late 70's, not sure exactly but right around there. Back in the 70's when I first began training there, he just started making it mandatory for his kickboxers to also learn and be ranked in the art of Kempo. Prior to that, he would train you in kickboxing if that was your forte and not neccessarily in the art.

Even after, his kickboxers were not all black belts in the art of Kempo. Dan Macaruso, who became legendary in the ring with the PKA (World Light heavyweight champ) was a brown belt. In the ring, he wore a black belt (b.b. in kickboxing) but back at the school when I was there, he wore a brown belt. Macaruso beat seasoned black belts and took the PKA World title from the legendary Jeff Smith. One big upset in the PKA was an event that featured *Dan* *Macaruso (brown belt)* vs. French karate legend Dominique Valera:

*"In 1980 in Brussels, Belgium, Mike Andersons organization put on an event that featured American Dan Macaruso vs. French karate legend Dominique Valera. Valera was the heavy favorite, and the crowd was disappointed with the outcome when the American won an easy victory over the Frenchman Valera."*


Now, Nick Cerio was a George Pesare black belt. Nick came from another boxing meca of New England - Boston, Ma., where Brockton, Ma. (just outside of Boston) put out many top pros (Brockton is the hometown of Marvin Hagler), Cerio did some boxing in his youth. Now, you have Fred Villari, a Nick Cerio black belt and there's your connection to boxing - Pesare-Cerio to Villari and SKK. Let's face it Marlon, boxing is great stuff, I dabbled in it myself in college and there are stories of black belts, regardless of styles, taking a sound beating on the street from just Golden Glove boxers or less. A friend of mine, John "Dino" Dennis was the former New England heavy weight boxing champ - since retired. Dino fought two exhibition bouts with Ali, one in Providence, the other in Boston and actually had a pro fight with George Foreman. He lost but he still was in the ring with an infamous boxing legend- how many can say that? Dino was notorious on the street and was feared by many and for good reason.  

Injured hands boxing on the street? Absolutely.....a close hometown friend of mine from way back (we trained together at one time), a talented boxer, won every fight he ever got into on the street but he always fractured his last knuckle, commonly referred to as a 'boxer's fracture'. Joe


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## Doc (Feb 23, 2007)

"Always strike the hard with the soft, and strike the soft with the hard." 
- Ed Parker Sr.


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## kidswarrior (Feb 23, 2007)

Doc said:


> "Always strike the hard with the soft, and strike the soft with the hard."
> - Ed Parker Sr.


 
Huh. So that gem which I still preach really did come from the source. :wink1:


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## Doc (Feb 23, 2007)

kidswarrior said:


> Huh. So that gem which I still preach really did come from the source. :wink1:



Well, that's what he always told me, so yeah!


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## marlon (Feb 24, 2007)

thanks to all,
and i still preach the quote from Mr.Parker also. 

respectfully,
Marlon


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