# Friendly Chi Sao Exchange



## futsaowingchun (Jan 16, 2015)

A friendly Chi Sao exchange at Columbus Park NYC between Sifu McIlwrath and Sifu Mark from the William Cheung lineage..


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## Argus (Jan 17, 2015)

It may be just me, but the guy in the blue and yellow coat doesn't seem to have a good grasp of centerline theory.


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## futsaowingchun (Jan 18, 2015)

why do you say that.?


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## Transk53 (Jan 18, 2015)

What was the aim of the exchange?


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## Argus (Jan 18, 2015)

futsaowingchun said:


> why do you say that.?



Well, it's kind of hard to tell because of the angle the video was taken, so I might very well be mistaken. It just looks like his hands are "wide" and often going off center giving you the inside line. Did you not get that sense rolling with him?


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## Mephisto (Jan 18, 2015)

Cool video! Thanks for sharing. To me it looked like the guy in the yellow and blue jacket was able to penetrate the defense of the other guy (no hood) on more occasions and make contact with his chest a couple of times, the guy without the hood only appeared to have an opportunity at a headshot at the very end. Of course, this is a drill so evaluating a winner isn't really the point I guess. I guess I'm just critical of the earlier post saying the yellow and blue jacket guy didn't have an understanding of centerline theory. Maybe he didn't but he appeared to keep the other guy on the defense. I've known guys that can explain theory all day and are good at explanation but when it comes to demonstrating that theory the ability doesn't seem to be there. Who cares about theory when you're able to create openings and land shots? Some people tend to overintellectualize (it's that's not a word it should be ) fighting. I'm not necessarily saying Argus was doing this above but i've seen it happen. Some go too deep into complications of theory and concept and forget about ability and application, where simplicity often reigns supreme. I like a good chi sao! But if we're going to asses understandings of theory those involved we may be taking away from the purpose of the exchange.


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## zuti car (Jan 18, 2015)

TWC guy has no structure ,(which is normal ,because TWC style has no structure theory ) , and what is also obvious , TWC guy is trying to stop the contact and then to land the punch instead to create the opening for the punch , yet another characteristic of TWC style .


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## kung fu fighter (Jan 18, 2015)

futsaowingchun said:


> A friendly Chi Sao exchange at Columbus Park NYC between Sifu McIlwrath and Sifu Mark from the William Cheung lineage..



thanks for posting the video Mike, it's nice to see some friendly chi sao exchange between linages. Here is the other TWC WSLVT chi sao exchange that I told you about


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## Argus (Jan 18, 2015)

Mephisto said:


> Cool video! Thanks for sharing. To me it looked like the guy in the yellow and blue jacket was able to penetrate the defense of the other guy (no hood) on more occasions and make contact with his chest a couple of times, the guy without the hood only appeared to have an opportunity at a headshot at the very end. Of course, this is a drill so evaluating a winner isn't really the point I guess. I guess I'm just critical of the earlier post saying the yellow and blue jacket guy didn't have an understanding of centerline theory. Maybe he didn't but he appeared to keep the other guy on the defense. I've known guys that can explain theory all day and are good at explanation but when it comes to demonstrating that theory the ability doesn't seem to be there. Who cares about theory when you're able to create openings and land shots? Some people tend to overintellectualize (it's that's not a word it should be ) fighting. I'm not necessarily saying Argus was doing this above but i've seen it happen. Some go too deep into complications of theory and concept and forget about ability and application, where simplicity often reigns supreme. I like a good chi sao! But if we're going to asses understandings of theory those involved we may be taking away from the purpose of the exchange.



It's a two-edge sword, I think. Theory and pragmatic application are not mutually exclusive; a truly skillful practitioner is one who can marry the two, and put theory into practice. After all, the principles of the art are there to work for you, and you can apply them quite broadly. But chisao is merely a learning tool. It's nothing more than playing really. As such, it's not really interesting to me who "tags" who or how many times; the guy in grey coat just appeared to have somewhat better control over the 'fight'; he controlled the line better, and exhibited better structure -- at least, from my point of view.

But, it's always easy to judge others. My intent isn't to criticize anyone or downplay their skill. I just tend to comment as I see things, because I'm curious to learn what others see, and if what I picked up on is correct or not. I'm sure if someone ever posted a video of me chisaoing, there would be plenty to criticize. But I'm okay with that


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## Mephisto (Jan 18, 2015)

Argus said:


> It's a two-edge sword, I think. Theory and pragmatic application are not mutually exclusive; a truly skillful practitioner is one who can marry the two, and put theory into practice. After all, the principles of the art are there to work for you, and you can apply them quite broadly. But chisao is merely a learning tool. It's nothing more than playing really. As such, it's not really interesting to me who "tags" who or how many times; the guy in grey coat just appeared to have somewhat better control over the 'fight'; he controlled the line better, and exhibited better structure -- at least, from my point of view.
> 
> But, it's always easy to judge others. My intent isn't to criticize anyone or downplay their skill. I just tend to comment as I see things, because I'm curious to learn what others see, and if what I picked up on is correct or not. I'm sure if someone ever posted a video of me chisaoing, there would be plenty to criticize. But I'm okay with that


Fair enough, IMO who tags who is all that matters. I'm not sure how much credit would be given to mike Tyson as an intelligent fighter. I doubt he could elequotely explain the nuances of his art but he was a highly skilled technician no doubt. Conversely, many could probably explain Tysons game without being able to pull it off. Theory and understanding Are nothing if ability is lacking. Unless you can use that ability and understanding to produce more like Tyson.


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## Treznor (Jan 19, 2015)

I think the problem with trying to comment on this type of thing is that different lineages have different ideas on what chi-sao is used to develop.

Where I train (WSL), it's used to develop control of the centre line and so we roll pretty close in (much like the 2nd clip shown)... The 1st clip appears to be concentrating more on deflection and as such (to my eyes at least), there seems to quite a lot of 'chasing hands' go on.


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## Kwan Sau (Jan 19, 2015)

Treznor said:


> I think the problem with trying to comment on this type of thing is that different lineages have different ideas on what chi-sao is used to develop.




...and the methods used to develop it!


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## geezer (Jan 19, 2015)

Treznor said:


> I think the problem with trying to comment on this type of thing is that different lineages have different ideas on what chi-sao is used to develop....



I'd agree. So for "friendly" and productive chi-sau, you kind of have to be willing to work with your opponent's "rule set" or have him work with yours. On the other hand if you approach it as a _competition_, you might as well just spar.

BTW _Treznor_, welcome to the WC forum. I hope you continue to post. Also maybe add a bit of an introduction. You train WSLVT? Which group? and Burnley ...is that in the UK?


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## Treznor (Jan 19, 2015)

Thanks for the welcome... I've actually been a member for a while but have mainly been in 'lurk-mode'.

Yes, Burnley is in the UK (North West to be a bit more precise). 

I've been training for about 3 years now... Only a small club (as in usually 2 or 3 of us training on the night I go)...


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## futsaowingchun (Jan 19, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> What was the aim of the exchange?



He wanted to test me out or was curious. I don't know him I was teaching a class and he walked over to me and ask If I would do some Chi Sao with his student them him. He seemed nice so I said sure.


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## futsaowingchun (Jan 19, 2015)

Argus said:


> Well, it's kind of hard to tell because of the angle the video was taken, so I might very well be mistaken. It just looks like his hands are "wide" and often going off center giving you the inside line. Did you not get that sense rolling with him?



yes, at times.


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## futsaowingchun (Jan 19, 2015)

Mephisto said:


> Cool video! Thanks for sharing. To me it looked like the guy in the yellow and blue jacket was able to penetrate the defense of the other guy (no hood) on more occasions and make contact with his chest a couple of times, the guy without the hood only appeared to have an opportunity at a headshot at the very end. Of course, this is a drill so evaluating a winner isn't really the point I guess. I guess I'm just critical of the earlier post saying the yellow and blue jacket guy didn't have an understanding of centerline theory. Maybe he didn't but he appeared to keep the other guy on the defense. I've known guys that can explain theory all day and are good at explanation but when it comes to demonstrating that theory the ability doesn't seem to be there. Who cares about theory when you're able to create openings and land shots? Some people tend to overintellectualize (it's that's not a word it should be ) fighting. I'm not necessarily saying Argus was doing this above but i've seen it happen. Some go too deep into complications of theory and concept and forget about ability and application, where simplicity often reigns supreme. I like a good chi sao! But if we're going to asses understandings of theory those involved we may be taking away from the purpose of the exchange.



For me the purpose was not about wining or losing. Just to exchange and get a feel for eachothers energy. There was quite alot of that going on.


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## KamonGuy2 (Jan 29, 2015)

Normally I love things like this. Its great to see wing chun guys from around the world having a friendly spar without any politcs. I wouldnt go away thinking 'that guy was rubbish, therefore his entire lineage is rubbish', just as I wouldnt judge a karate style based on what I saw one blue belt doing. However, in this instance the video is bad quality, the exponents are wearing too heavy clothes which make the techniques hard to see. Itd be great to see more wing chun exchanges, maybe with some verbalisation. When Ive exchanged before, both myself and my training partner exchanged ideas and question etc


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## Transk53 (Jan 31, 2015)

KamonGuy2 said:


> Normally I love things like this. Its great to see wing chun guys from around the world having a friendly spar without any politcs. I wouldnt go away thinking 'that guy was rubbish, therefore his entire lineage is rubbish', just as I wouldnt judge a karate style based on what I saw one blue belt doing. However, in this instance the video is bad quality, the exponents are wearing too heavy clothes which make the techniques hard to see. Itd be great to see more wing chun exchanges, maybe with some verbalisation. When Ive exchanged before, both myself and my training partner exchanged ideas and question etc



Pretty much the way I personally see it. The very latter of the post is I would agree, very very important. The Sifu is very understanding of the fact that I will stop mid drill if I need to ask a question. The knowledge tap is feels relentless right now, so I will turn the stopcock now and again


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## Transk53 (Jan 31, 2015)

futsaowingchun said:


> For me the purpose was not about wining or losing. Just to exchange and get a feel for eachothers energy. There was quite alot of that going on.



Keep the vids coming. I am enjoying them immensely. Probably a little selfish of me, but them coming


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## futsaowingchun (Feb 7, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Keep the vids coming. I am enjoying them immensely. Probably a little selfish of me, but them coming



I have plans on making more videos and I will post then as soon as I can. Right now the weather is cold so it's been tough to video some stuff.


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