# Soul fighters academy



## Master of none (Nov 18, 2016)

Any thoughts on Soul fighters academy? It kind of sounds like a Mcdojo to me.


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 18, 2016)

What makes you say that?


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## Master of none (Nov 18, 2016)

Because I was doing some research and it's one of those school were you can be a certified instructor with online training.


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## Tony Dismukes (Nov 19, 2016)

Never heard of it. Do you have a link?


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 19, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Never heard of it. Do you have a link?


This might be the group





This may be their page
Soul Fighters - Online Academy - Home Page -


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## Dinkydoo (Nov 19, 2016)

Can't say I'm a fan of the 'shell up' approach to defence but I appreciate that with smaller gloves, covering up is more difficult - which is probably at least partially why mma folks rely on good footwork as much (or more) for defence than what the hands are doing. 

The promo is also trying to be a bit "hoorah" which I also find a little annoying but it could be because I'm up early on a Saturday, still aching all over from yesterday and about to go to training! 

They look fairly competent at what they're doing though and acknowledge that it's a system they have created. Doesn't look like a McDojo to me, although I may be using a different definition than what others are


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 19, 2016)

Master of none said:


> Because I was doing some research and it's one of those school were you can be a certified instructor with online training.



I am not a fan of online training.

However, their website does not seem to say that they offer instructor credentials without actual training. I have no idea what they are, but they do not look like a McDojo to me.


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 19, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Never heard of it. Do you have a link?



Martial Arts Instructors & Advanced Training - Soul Fighters Academy


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 19, 2016)

Dinkydoo said:


> Can't say I'm a fan of the 'shell up' approach


  I'm not a fan of that and I'm not a fan of turning my back to my opponent when I'm fighting multiple attackers..  Footwork always matters.  I don't like the "shell up" approach because I don't always strike the head and the people who spar and train with don't always go for the head either.  It's probably a decent tactic for someone who is only focus on hitting your head.  With all the MMA fan boys and the many people who are taking BJJ I wouldn't be to quick to commit my arms to making a helmet.  I may need to to do other things like, block kicks to my stomach, prevent a shoot, or to help block any of the numerous lower and mid body shots that a person can lay out.  Busted ribs, kidney, and liver shots can be equally and even more painful than getting hit in the head.  A person can take one of those and risk being dropped and then kicked in the face.  

The "shell up" approach will probably work well for someone who is in a tight space with limited room for movement.


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## Dinkydoo (Nov 19, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm not a fan of that and I'm not a fan of turning my back to my opponent when I'm fighting multiple attackers..



I'm not a fan of fighting multiple attackers, full stop! I used to do it with friends as a kind-of sparring game (2 v 1) but if the larger group are in anyway coordinated then you're in big trouble, if you're on the other side. The only tactic that seemed to work okay for me was target one guy, hit, evade...somehow get around them and run away - all whilst trying not to take too much damage from the other person. 



> Footwork always matters.



It does, but to a different degree depending on the ruleset you're operating under. In Muay Thai without the risk of people shooting for you and/or finishing you on the ground, then too much circling and moving about is going to get you in trouble; because the other guy will be cutting the angle and hammering you with kicks.



> I don't like the "shell up" approach because I don't always strike the head and the people who spar and train with don't always go for the head either.  It's probably a decent tactic for someone who is only focus on hitting your head.  With all the MMA fan boys and the many people who are taking BJJ I wouldn't be to quick to commit my arms to making a helmet.  I may need to to do other things like, block kicks to my stomach, prevent a shoot, or to help block any of the numerous lower and mid body shots that a person can lay out.  Busted ribs, kidney, and liver shots can be equally and even more painful than getting hit in the head.  A person can take one of those and risk being dropped and then kicked in the face.
> 
> The "shell up" approach will probably work well for someone who is in a tight space with limited room for movement.



With smaller gloves you are going to have to make a helmet at times when coming under fire whilst in range - I've tried using the Thai style open guard a couple of times when I used to go to an mma class and you're just too open to block that way. MMA guys will be slipping and moving all the time anyway so they don't really stay static and shell up like shown in the Soul Fighters video anyway. 

That was a pretty long winded way of saying I agree with you, in principle


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 19, 2016)

Dinkydoo said:


> I'm not a fan of fighting multiple attackers, full stop! I used to do it with friends as a kind-of sparring game (2 v 1) but if the larger group are in anyway coordinated then you're in big trouble, if you're on the other side. The only tactic that seemed to work okay for me was target one guy, hit, evade...somehow get around them and run away - all whilst trying not to take too much damage from the other person.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I wish there was a video them actually sparring with this technique.  We normally see this technique used in drills.


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## KangTsai (Nov 19, 2016)

Master of none said:


> Because I was doing some research and it's one of those school were you can be a certified instructor with online training.


The Gracies use that method and it's pretty effective. Any other signs?


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## Tony Dismukes (Nov 20, 2016)

I don't know exactly how their online training works - it looks like there may be requirements to supplement it with in-person seminars. I haven't seen anything about them giving out rank based just on online training.

Either way, they are a legit BJJ academy. I don't know anything about the quality of their striking or weapons curriculum.


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## marques (Nov 20, 2016)

I like the 'shell up' WITH closing distance. 

It works regardless the punch, it is fast, give you 'infinite' options to follow up and usually favours the trained guy. One should not abuse of that, it is just a no brain reaction, a moment as shown in the video.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 20, 2016)

marques said:


> I like the 'shell up' WITH closing distance.
> 
> It works regardless the punch, it is fast, give you 'infinite' options to follow up and usually favours the trained guy. One should not abuse of that, it is just a no brain reaction, a moment as shown in the video.


Nothing works "regardless the punch".


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 20, 2016)

A lot of folks seem to be missing the point here. A training facility is not a McDojo because one disagrees with a method being taught. A McDojo is a fraudulent facility that takes money and awards belts,  certification, or awards in exchange for little or no actual training, or training so poor as to be instantly recognizable as such by any trained martial artist.

Agree with the concepts taught here or not, the term McDojo clearly does not apply here.


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## marques (Nov 20, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Nothing works "regardless the punch".


Punch or even push. You don't need to identify the attack. (Do you have time, when you don't expect an attack either?) You need only to identify a preparation for an attack. The body contracts - rather clear on YouTube footages - and if you lose that millisecond you're KO'd (as the ones on the footages).

Of course, everything may fail. But that works quite well for me. I have used that even as a set up for attacking big guys (closing distance) in sparring.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 20, 2016)

marques said:


> Punch or even push. You don't need to identify the attack. (Do you have time, when you don't expect an attack either?) You need only to identify a preparation for an attack. The body contracts - rather clear on YouTube footages - and if you lose that millisecond you're KO'd (as the ones on the footages).
> 
> Of course, everything may fail. But that works quite well for me. I have used that even as a set up for attacking big guys (closing distance) in sparring.


I didn't say it wasn't effective. I'm simply saying that you're not going to have a single response that will work for every single punch (abdomen, head, round, straight, uppercut, close, distant, fast, high-power, etc.).


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## marques (Nov 20, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I didn't say it wasn't effective. I'm simply saying that you're not going to have a single response that will work for every single punch (abdomen, head, round, straight, uppercut, close, distant, fast, high-power, etc.).


We agree. I am not saying that is the best solution, always. But that is the fastest.

When a discussion is hot and something sudden may happen, or nothing at all, that one is great. They are contracting the body for attacking (doesn't matter what) and you are already there! Simple as jump in or not jump in. I've seen too quick KO's in that situations... I will not over complicate. 

If it is in sparring I will try as many defences as I can remember for the same attack. Which goes further than one defence for each attack.


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## marques (Nov 20, 2016)

Bill Mattocks said:


> A lot of folks seem to be missing the point here. A training facility is not a McDojo because one disagrees with a method being taught. A McDojo is a fraudulent facility that takes money and awards belts,  certification, or awards in exchange for little or no actual training, or training so poor as to be instantly recognizable as such by any trained martial artist.
> 
> Agree with the concepts taught here or not, the term McDojo clearly does not apply here.


A lot of folks, like me, understand the difference and digress too easily, anyway.  Furthermore, I disagree with early deviations on new topics...

McDojo or not? I don't think so, from the videos. How much they charge per month, graduation...?

PS: http://www.karatebyjesse.com/93-signs-of-a-mcdojo/


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 20, 2016)

marques said:


> It works regardless the punch, it is fast, give you 'infinite' options to follow up and usually favours the trained guy


It works withing limitations.  Every defense has an open and there is never a "one size fits all defense" for punches other than keeping out of range.  I know for a fact that covering up like that won't work will with me.  It has nothing to do with what I train and everything to do with what I fight.  When I see someone covered like then I automatically know that you open below that guard.  Legs, knees, gut, kidney, liver, throat, thighs,   all of these I can strike with a punch.  I have no desire to punch through a "shelled" guard when there are so man other places that or open as a result of the guard.  In terms of the danger that it puts a person in.  If I was in that position I would be less worried about a punch and more about a kick.

Out on the street you'll probably be fine with that approach when dealing with most people.  But I'm pretty sure it would have limited results against another fighter or even someone who trains as if they were going to be a fighter or sorts.  When boxers "shell up" they end up getting body blows,  When Muay Thai fighters "shell up" they end up getting knees. From what I've seen from street fights in you tube.  The people involved are lacking in any real strategy beyond swing hard for the head.


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## drop bear (Nov 20, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm not a fan of that and I'm not a fan of turning my back to my opponent when I'm fighting multiple attackers.



Wait what?  

Ok i haven't seen the video. But that sounds a bit ambitious.


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## drop bear (Nov 20, 2016)

Shelling up ironically makes you prettying defenceless against a double leg. 

Which is strange that grappling arts go for it.


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## marques (Nov 20, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Shelling up ironically makes you prettying defenceless against a double leg.
> 
> Which is strange that grappling arts go for it.


We keep digressing... Let's go.

And THIS is the weakness. I was never 'kneed' effectively when 'jumping in' - knees meet elbows, quite no way for dangerous punches... But grappling would be my real weakness, even if I enter with a lower stance than the showed here. I really couldn't wait for the takedown, in order to survive... 

Curiously, grappling would be a great follow-up for the shell up + (low) jumping in, if I knew a bit more...


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## marques (Nov 20, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> Every defense has an open and there is never a "one size fits all defense" for punches other than keeping out of range.  I know for a fact that covering up like that won't work will with me.


Against big guys, out of range is close distance. Then if he knows grappling... next problem to solve.

It wouldn't work for you because you are the big guy.  Keeping distance would your 'no brain' solution, instead of closing distance as for shorter guys. Ok, possibilities are infinite, but these are the rules of thumb.


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## frank raud (Nov 20, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Shelling up ironically makes you prettying defenceless against a double leg.
> 
> Which is strange that grappling arts go for it.


So does getting knocked out. If you don't survive the initial onslaught, whatever your abilities are afterwards don't matter much. Double leg is common in a mma fight, not as common in a street fight.


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## frank raud (Nov 20, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> It works withing limitations.  Every defense has an open and there is never a "one size fits all defense" for punches other than keeping out of range.  I know for a fact that covering up like that won't work will with me.  It has nothing to do with what I train and everything to do with what I fight.  When I see someone covered like then I automatically know that you open below that guard.  Legs, knees, gut, kidney, liver, throat, thighs,   all of these I can strike with a punch.  I have no desire to punch through a "shelled" guard when there are so man other places that or open as a result of the guard.  In terms of the danger that it puts a person in.  If I was in that position I would be less worried about a punch and more about a kick.
> 
> Out on the street you'll probably be fine with that approach when dealing with most people.  But I'm pretty sure it would have limited results against another fighter or even someone who trains as if they were going to be a fighter or sorts.  When boxers "shell up" they end up getting body blows,  When Muay Thai fighters "shell up" they end up getting knees. From what I've seen from street fights in you tube.  The people involved are lacking in any real strategy beyond swing hard for the head.


Your last sentence covers most of what you will encounter. Violence in action as opposed to a methodical attack and breakdown of your defense. Most people can take a body shot and continue, many people can't proceed after getting their brains rattled. What I don't like up the way that they shell up is they still need to recognise which side the punch is coming from, as they alternate left and right hand positions accordingly. As I was taught the shell(referred to as a "default" position), it doesn't matter what kind of punch, or from which hand the punch is coming from, the default position is non-diagnostic.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 20, 2016)

For the OP, I watched some of their videos and they seem to be very self-defense focus which is good for anyone looking to defend themselves.  There is only be so much that you'll be able to learn online and offline and that's where sparring comes into play.  From what I could tell in the videos, when they spar they try to work the techniques that they are learning which is what needs to happen regardless of what fighting system a person uses.  They also sound very realistic in their approach.  But like everything else in the world.  It won't work like you want it to work and you won't be good at it unless it's practiced in free sparring.

Small guy shells up against tall guy using the technique being taught by the group.  You can clearly see that the small guy is trying to use the technique. When he shell's up the big guy attacks low. The big guy throws a couple of punches at the guard and still lands a few even with big gloves on.  My guess is that he threw punches at the guard so that his partner could work on using the TRITAC guard.  





TRITAC GUARD


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## drop bear (Nov 21, 2016)

frank raud said:


> So does getting knocked out. If you don't survive the initial onslaught, whatever your abilities are afterwards don't matter much. Double leg is common in a mma fight, not as common in a street fight.



So it is a lowest standard thing.


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## frank raud (Nov 21, 2016)

drop bear said:


> So it is a lowest standard thing.


Or a highest percentage thing. You know , the odds of being attacked with a haymaker as an opening gambit as opposed to being attacked with a high fake, low shoot to double leg combo.


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## Master of none (Nov 21, 2016)

Thanks for all your in put. I'm not an MMA guy just want to learn a realistic self defense. I use to wrestle and learned wing chun. Want open up my world to other martial arts so just wanted some expert advice. Thank you.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 21, 2016)

frank raud said:


> Or a highest percentage thing. You know , the odds of being attacked with a haymaker as an opening gambit as opposed to being attacked with a high fake, low shoot to double leg combo.


  Very true.


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## drop bear (Nov 21, 2016)

frank raud said:


> Or a highest percentage thing. You know , the odds of being attacked with a haymaker as an opening gambit as opposed to being attacked with a high fake, low shoot to double leg combo.



No. What are those odds?


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## marques (Nov 21, 2016)

I like the probability thing. But why assume the attacker(s) is _just_ the average stupid? I've seen it on other threads, too.

Personally, I find training more motivating if having in mind an opponent like a McGregor, but size XL and that knows wrestling and BJJ...  
(percentage thing + high standard thing?)


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## frank raud (Nov 21, 2016)

marques said:


> I like the probability thing. But why assume the attacker(s) is _just_ the average stupid? I've seen it on other threads, too.
> 
> Personally, I find training more motivating if having in mind an opponent like a McGregor, but size XL and that knows wrestling and BJJ...
> (percentage thing + high standard thing?)


 If you are training for self defense purposes, and the most common opening attack is a haymaker punch, it would seem reasonable to train an effective counter to a haymaker punch. You may not be right every time, but the odds are in your favour. 


drop bear said:


> No. What are those odds?


Perhaps things are different where you are. I'm just a spry little old 55 year old who has seen his share of bar fights and street brawls. When I combine that with the observations of my law enforcement friends(the guys who write up reports on what happened in fights), the wild swinging knock your head off punch is the opening gambit of choice. More hockey players than rugby or football players around here, so tackles are not that common.


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## drop bear (Nov 21, 2016)

frank raud said:


> Perhaps things are different where you are. I'm just a spry little old 55 year old who has seen his share of bar fights and street brawls. When I combine that with the observations of my law enforcement friends(the guys who write up reports on what happened in fights), the wild swinging knock your head off punch is the opening gambit of choice. More hockey players than rugby or football players around here, so tackles are not that common.



It would be nice to know what shot is coming beforehand. I am not sure how many eggs I would put in that basket.

It would be a bit embarrassing to be the one forcing the grapple and then get put on my back.


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## Matt Bryers (May 7, 2018)

FYI - I am the one who manages Soul Fighters Academy / TRITAC Academy.

Yes - we do offer instructor certification and Academy licensing.  Soul Fighters is one of the biggest and growing BJJ teams / training in the world.  We have many people requesting to join the team.  In order to do that, they have to be certified and licensed.  The same thing goes for TRITAC (our combatives system).

BUT - that does NOT, repeat NOT mean we offer online certification.  We don't give a f*ck if we only have one certified instructor.  What is important is the integrity of our of training and evolution.

We DO offer online training / video courses.  Why?  Because people asked for it!  It allows us who have worked all of our lives on training martial arts to share our passion as well as help support what we do.

Regardless of how you feel about the applications of our technique - I just wanted to make it clear that we were NOT NOT NOT offering online certification.  We ARE accepting applications for instructors.  But that doesn't mean that you are accepted into the program, and if you are, you must go through a 3-6 month evaluation program which includes coming to our TRITAC HQ in Connecticut.  Only martial artists with a strong background are accepted into our program, and even if they complete the eval program, that does NOT mean that they achieve or are certified.  Again, our integrity is most important.

Oss.


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## CB Jones (May 7, 2018)

frank raud said:


> Or a highest percentage thing. You know , the odds of being attacked with a haymaker as an opening gambit as opposed to being attacked with a high fake, low shoot to double leg combo.



Disagree

I think even with the untrained fighting you see a natural tendency to double leg or just go for a good old football tackle.


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## Matt Bryers (May 7, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> I think even with the untrained fighting you see a natural tendency to double leg or just go for a good old football tackle.



Agreed 

But - just because you see us using our "Frame" Defense, does not mean that's the only thing we do.  In our fundamentals courses (taught at my school and online), the initial frame defense is taught as an "oh sh*t" defense.  It is not the answer to everything.  During the fundamentals courses, they are also taught how to sprawl, a variety of takedowns (including double-leg), how to escape grounded positions (side control, mount, etc), how to strike (punch, hammers, elbows, knees, etc).  

What I do like about the framing concept is from a grapplers perspective, it does allow us to enter into close-combat range, where we can clinch, control, takedown, dirty box, shield, etc.  That's the range that we "function" in.


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## CB Jones (May 7, 2018)

Matt Bryers said:


> Agreed
> 
> But - just because you see us using our "Frame" Defense, does not mean that's the only thing we do.  In our fundamentals courses (taught at my school and online), the initial frame defense is taught as an "oh sh*t" defense.  It is not the answer to everything.  During the fundamentals courses, they are also taught how to sprawl, a variety of takedowns (including double-leg), how to escape grounded positions (side control, mount, etc), how to strike (punch, hammers, elbows, knees, etc).
> 
> What I do like about the framing concept is from a grapplers perspective, it does allow us to enter into close-combat range, where we can clinch, control, takedown, dirty box, shield, etc.  That's the range that we "function" in.



Personally,I just don’t care for that specific technique but with that said I’m not familiar with your system and I am not trying to put down your system.


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## Matt Bryers (May 7, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> Personally,I just don’t care for that specific technique but with that said I’m not familiar with your system and I am not trying to put down your system.



No worries man   It's just something that we use.  As you know, every martial artist has to find their own path and answers.  These techniques are just ones that we find applicable for our desired result.  These conversations and investigations are what this forum so interesting!


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## frank raud (May 7, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> Disagree
> 
> I think even with the untrained fighting you see a natural tendency to double leg or just go for a good old football tackle.


  Again, it may depend on where you live. Hockey is the most popular sport were I live, very rare to see a double leg or football tackle done on skates. So there is not the crossover you may have elsewhere.  Here is a list of top ten attacks 
Ten Most Common Street Attacks - UKM Instructor - Stewart McGill , first thing I found when googling most common attack on the street. No rugby or football tackles, and the shell would potentially work against 7 of 10 attacks on the list, and would not be appropriate for 3 of them. That's pretty good odds.


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