# What makes a Martial Arts System Practical for Physical Self-Defense?



## JowGaWolf (Jan 2, 2021)

What makes a Martial Arts System Practical for Physical Self-Defense?

I'm curious to see the perspectives of others.


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## drop bear (Jan 2, 2021)

The ability to enforce your will on people who want to enforce their will on you.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 2, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> What makes a Martial Arts System Practical for Physical Self-Defense?
> 
> I'm curious to see the perspectives of others.


It has a set of principles and a systematic and methodical approach to training that is effective in teaching you to move efficiently and powerfully, and that can be expressed with a body of useful techniques.


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## Hanzou (Jan 2, 2021)

Full contact sparring.


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## isshinryuronin (Jan 2, 2021)

Keeping in mind that the individuals involved (teacher and student) play a huge part in this question, as far as the system/style itself is concerned, it should possess the following:

Have originally been designed for self-defense so the structure is there.
Not been diluted for sport, competition or exercise emphasis.
Be practiced so every technique and step has direct and effective application.
Be based on sound biomechanical principles.
Have grabbing/control techniques to manipulate the opponent (even "striking arts").
Have adaptability to allow one to flow with everchanging situations.
Use of _tai sabaki, _stressing change of angles for defense and entering.

No doubt there are a few more elements that can be added, but these are the critical, essential, ones that popped up quickly in my mind.  If the system is lacking in one or more of these, its self-defense capability will be limited.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 2, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> What makes a Martial Arts System Practical for Physical Self-Defense?
> 
> I'm curious to see the perspectives of others.


That depends on some perspective. How much responsibility do we put on the system, vs the person?

I’d expect a system of that nature to include some fitness-oriented activity, some simple techniques that can be applied in a wide range of circumstances, and significant time working against a resisting opponent. 

The short answer is @drop bear’s reply.  That’s the outcome by which you can judge. Can serious participants do that? If so, it’s likely the system is working.


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## oftheherd11 (Jan 2, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> That depends on some perspective. *How much responsibility do we put on the system, vs the person?*
> 
> I’d expect a system of that nature to include some fitness-oriented activity, some simple techniques that can be applied in a wide range of circumstances, and significant time working against a resisting opponent.
> 
> The short answer is @drop bear’s reply.  That’s the outcome by which you can judge. Can serious participants do that? If so, it’s likely the system is working.



I think the bolded is too often taken for granted.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 2, 2021)

You are traveling in a remote area that police is not available. Something happen and you need to knock out 2 bad guys who has knife. Does your MA system provide you some tools to do that?


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## isshinryuronin (Jan 2, 2021)

drop bear said:


> The ability to enforce your will on people who want to enforce their will on you.





gpseymour said:


> How much responsibility do we put on the system, vs the person?



The question was not concerning the individual's strength of will or how much he works out.  I agree that these are important things, as I posted, but the question centers on the SYSTEM.  A tough, fast, aggressive, strong guy, but untrained, with a club may be able to force his will upon another, but would you call his method a system?



Flying Crane said:


> It has a set of principles and a systematic and methodical approach to training that is effective in teaching you to move efficiently and powerfully, and that can be expressed with a body of useful techniques.



A system must be able to be replicated and be effective for the average, hard working, practitioner.  Flying Crane was on point with his brief answer - I just detailed some of the principles.



Kung Fu Wang said:


> You are traveling in a remote area that police is not available. Something happen and you need to knock out 2 bad guys who has knife. Does your MA system provide you some tools to do that?



That system is called "RunFast Fu."  Its practitioners always survive an encounter with anything short of a gun or arrow.  Seriously, I would view with grave doubt anyone who professes a system that can reliably allow an unarmed man take care of two knife wielders.  IMO, it would take an elite trained combat fighter AND two morons holding the knives.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 2, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> That system is called "RunFast Fu."


The concern are:

- You may not be able to run (such as you are on a bus).
- It's somebody else who needs your help (such as the bus driver is raped right in front of your eyes).



isshinryuronin said:


> unarmed man take care of two knife wielders.


Not if you have this belt on your waist. Of course your MA system should help you to train how to use it.


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## jobo (Jan 3, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> The question was not concerning the individual's strength of will or how much he works out.  I agree that these are important things, as I posted, but the question centers on the SYSTEM.  A tough, fast, aggressive, strong guy, but untrained, with a club may be able to force his will upon another, but would you call his method a system?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


well the SYSTEM needs to build fitness as part of its process,  in that i mean all levels of fitness, strengh cardio,  balance reactions speed etal.

if it doesnt do that and the person is not devekoping these elsewhere,  then its fundementally flawed,  in its it's intended purpose of being viable if your attacked

there after it need a few high % technques, that are dekivered 3xtremly well, nothing flash, nothing thats likely to get yout leg grabbed, what these actually are depends to a large extent on point one above

and has been said above, some actual " fighting" however this is delivered, through sport or hard sparring


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 3, 2021)

jobo said:


> well the SYSTEM needs to build fitness as part of its process,  in that i mean all levels of fitness, strengh cardio,  balance reactions speed etal.
> 
> if it doesnt do that and the person is not devekoping these elsewhere,  then its fundementally flawed,  in its it's intended purpose of being viable if your attacked
> 
> ...


Is it the system's responsibility to build fitness? If someone attends 3 hours a week (pretty common, perhaps even on the high side), they're not going to build comprehensive fitness AND fighting skills in that time.


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 3, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> What makes a Martial Arts System Practical for Physical Self-Defense?
> 
> .




the system must have the aim of self defense. not as a secondary by product of training.
It must be centered around a weapons based system with H2H seamlessly incorporated.
It must  take into consideration stress and the human adrenal response to fear and train for it.
 It must  understand the reality that each individual exists in, meaning a civilian has a different situation than a police officer and the art needs to understand the differences and train to it.
the training must resemble as closely as possible the reality it will be used in, in order for the brain to recognize and apply the training.
it _should_ take into account the individuals physical and emotional limitations. just because you teach a women to stick her thumbs into the eyes of an attacker does not mean she has the emotional stomach to do it.
it _should_ set up a frame work of moral self worth and prep the individual to make that decision on when to "pull the trigger".
It _should _educate the individual about the aftermath of self defense.


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## isshinryuronin (Jan 3, 2021)

jobo said:


> well the SYSTEM needs to build fitness as part of its process, in that i mean all levels of fitness, strengh cardio, balance reactions speed etal.





gpseymour said:


> Is it the system's responsibility to build fitness?



There is no denying fitness and strength is important in MA, but....Is it the system's responsibility to do 300 kicks and 400 punches per workout?  For the counts to be so fast that the practitioner barely has time to reset?  To do 30 pushups?  For the student to put 100% effort into his practice?

No system details such actions (except perhaps encouraging the last one, but even this is a personal choice).  It is up to the instructor and student to decide how serious they approach their art.  Providing the student's effort, *most all systems inherently set the stage for fitness by the mere fact there is fast and powerful movement involved.  But it is up to the student to push themselves to take advantage of it.*

Some schools spend 25% of class time on calisthenics to build fitness, others, much less, leaving it to the student to jog, lift, or exercise on their own time.   I don't think this is a function of the system, but the instructor.  Fitness, like competence, is the result of effort - Effort is not something any system (MA or other) can supply.  It is up to the practitioner to be responsible for it.


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## jobo (Jan 3, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> There is no denying fitness and strength is important in MA, but....Is it the system's responsibility to do 300 kicks and 400 punches per workout?  For the counts to be so fast that the practitioner barely has time to reset?  To do 30 pushups?  For the student to put 100% effort into his practice?
> 
> No system details such actions (except perhaps encouraging the last one, but even this is a personal choice).  It is up to the instructor and student to decide how serious they approach their art.  Providing the student's effort, *most all systems inherently set the stage for fitness by the mere fact there is fast and powerful movement involved.  But it is up to the student to push themselves to take advantage of it.*
> 
> Some schools spend 25% of class time on calisthenics to build fitness, others, much less, leaving it to the student to jog, lift, or exercise on their own time.   I don't think this is a function of the system, but the instructor.  Fitness, like competence, is the result of effort - Effort is not something any system (MA or other) can supply.  It is up to the practitioner to be responsible for it.


you cant do it unless the student is going to buy into it, but yes, if what your selling is a practical sd system, that need to be included,  or least declared up front, that its actual practical application is heavily dependent on the student working out elsewhere

and there arnt many sd situations where an ability to do three hundred kicks will be an important factor, so id leave that out for now


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## jobo (Jan 3, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Is it the system's responsibility to build fitness? If someone attends 3 hours a week (pretty common, perhaps even on the high side), they're not going to build comprehensive fitness AND fighting skills in that time.


well which is most important? to sd,

allowing that they are both essential in some ratio, or other  so 2 hours fitness and one fighting or the other way round,  if you prioriting it differently

just saying lets do one and not the other, isnt perhaps the best way forward


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 3, 2021)

jobo said:


> well which is most important? to sd,
> 
> allowing that they are both essential in some ratio, or other  so 2 hours fitness and one fighting or the other way round,  if you prioriting it differently
> 
> just saying lets do one and not the other, isnt perhaps the best way forward


Yeah, which is why I didn't say that.


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## stanly stud (Jan 3, 2021)

jobo said:


> well which is most important? to sd,
> 
> allowing that they are both essential in some ratio, or other  so 2 hours fitness and one fighting or the other way round,  if you prioriting it differently
> 
> just saying lets do one and not the other, isnt perhaps the best way forward


well you know some martial arts schools have also cardio, weight training machines..etc. 
Cardio fitness is done outside the dojo in most cases. 
No one unless you are say a pro athlete has time to do both in  martial arts schools. The time spent learning Kata is enough.  ground school stuff...etc. 
Bruce Lee trained mostly on his own & a great deal at home. 
so how do you solve the problem? I myself cycle to work & anywhere i can. I walk everywhere. Weekends running with a friend who is a much better runner than me so i get a good workout. I box on a box sack at home. 
It´s not a question of priority but more of time managment on your part.


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## jobo (Jan 3, 2021)

stanly stud said:


> well you know some martial arts schools have also cardio, weight training machines..etc.
> Cardio fitness is done outside the dojo in most cases.
> No one unless you are say a pro athlete has time to do both in  martial arts schools. The time spent learning Kata is enough.  ground school stuff...etc.
> Bruce Lee trained mostly on his own & a great deal at home.
> ...


it most certainly can be done, it just not that common, it seems.

many years ago a dojo i was at devoted around a half of the run time to fitness, the net result was after three months i was literally fighting fit,

the question was what should a self defence system have and my answer is a high level of fitness component,

if your selling a sd system that doesnt include that your taking money under false pretences, unless you at least tell them that it of very questionable value unless  they take up the slack in their own time


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## drop bear (Jan 3, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Is it the system's responsibility to build fitness? If someone attends 3 hours a week (pretty common, perhaps even on the high side), they're not going to build comprehensive fitness AND fighting skills in that time.



If In a practical sense fitness is a fighting skill. Mabye 3 days a week doesn't really set someone up for self defense as well as might be hoped. 

So yes it is the systems responsibility if fitness is a requirement to fight.


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## drop bear (Jan 3, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> The question was not concerning the individual's strength of will or how much he works out. I agree that these are important things, as I posted, but the question centers on the SYSTEM. A tough, fast, aggressive, strong guy, but untrained, with a club may be able to force his will upon another, but would you call his method a system?



forcing my will on someone means I can make someone do what I want regardless of their wishes. So if I want to escape and he wants to hold me. Then he is given no choice.


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## jobo (Jan 3, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Yeah, which is why I didn't say that.


you asked if it was the,systems responcibility to deliver fitness and that this woulnt leave enouhh time for tecnque, plainly thats you priortising one over the other


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 3, 2021)

*What makes a Martial Arts System Practical for Physical Self-Defense?*

Which MA system will you train?

When someone tries to rape your wife, your 

1. 1st MA system teacher tells you that you need to de-escalate, and run away.
2. 2nd MA system teacher tells you that you need to beat up that guy so his own mother won't be able to recognize him.

I'll choice 2 over 1.


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## isshinryuronin (Jan 3, 2021)

jobo said:


> if what your selling is a practical sd system, that need to be included, or least declared up front, that its actual practical application is heavily dependent on the student working out elsewhere



Exactly my point - Fitness is "heavily dependent on the student," not the system. 



jobo said:


> there arnt many sd situations where an ability to do three hundred kicks will be an important factor



You're being obtuse here.  Obviously you will not be attacked by 300 guys (unless you're in a Kill Bill or kung fu movie,) or kick one guy 300 times.  But doing 300 kicks per workout will _help_ allow you to kick one guy, one time, and land it with power.  Anyway, the topic of discussion was regarding physical fitness, not application.  Please re-read the posts for context.


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## jobo (Jan 3, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> Exactly my point - Fitness is "heavily dependent on the student," not the system.
> 
> 
> 
> You're being obtuse here.  Obviously you will not be attacked by 300 guys (unless you're in a Kill Bill or kung fu movie,) or kick one guy 300 times.  But doing 300 kicks per workout will _help_ allow you to kick one guy, one time, and land it with power.  Anyway, the topic of discussion was regarding physical fitness, not application.  Please re-read the posts for context.


well no that wasnt my point,  the system is varius stages of useless with out strong fitness component , that means the system will most likely fail, that is then an inherant flaw in the system, i cant think of any sport that doesnt take fitness trainibg serious, yet somethibg that may actualy be life and death, youve shrugged shoulders not my problem guv 

if you were coaching a basket ball team would you say, no, dont wory about fitness, that wont help you win? no thought not


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## jobo (Jan 3, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> Exactly my point - Fitness is "heavily dependent on the student," not the system.
> 
> 
> 
> You're being obtuse here.  Obviously you will not be attacked by 300 guys (unless you're in a Kill Bill or kung fu movie,) or kick one guy 300 times.  But doing 300 kicks per workout will _help_ allow you to kick one guy, one time, and land it with power.  Anyway, the topic of discussion was regarding physical fitness, not application.  Please re-read the posts for context.


well generslly no it wont, 300 kicks will teach you to kick 300 times, it will have little effect on how hard you kick once


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## jobo (Jan 3, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Is it the system's responsibility to build fitness? If someone attends 3 hours a week (pretty common, perhaps even on the high side), they're not going to build comprehensive fitness AND fighting skills in that time.


there also the ussue, that fitness trainibg doesnt have to take a long time to be effective, if its better or worse than a longer time is up for debate, but its a lot better than skipping it entirly.

from an sd point if veiw, a capability to deliver,5 minetes of maximal effort will be very useful, that actually only takes 5 minets of training time to achieve, you just do more and more in the 5 mins till your at peak fitness


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 3, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> *What makes a Martial Arts System Practical for Physical Self-Defense?*
> 
> Which MA system will you train?
> 
> ...


I think this is a question that gets over looked.   There's self-defense where I'm the only one in danger and then there's "Self-defense" when there may be a need to come to the aid of a family member or a child.   Technically that's not classified as "self-defense."  but in the case of family it could be very much self-defense in a broader perspective and the game plan for "self-defense" as a group is not the same as "self-defense" as individual.

I like to often show animals behavior for things like this because it's the most honest view and much of it is similar to what some of us would do. Or what is the best decision.





My personal thoughts is that Running away is good in some scenarios, but in others splitting from the group can be bad and the worst thing that one can do in terms of self-defense.  In general, predators like prey that runs away, I believe humans are the same way.  They look for the weaker of the group.

When I teach self-defense I teach for individuals and as a group.  Usually I train mother and daughter individual techniques and methods and then I teach them how to operate as a team or a unit, to increase their safety as a group.


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## jobo (Jan 3, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I think this is a question that gets over looked.   There's self-defense where I'm the only one in danger and then there's "Self-defense" when there may be a need to come to the aid of a family member or a child.   Technically that's not classified as "self-defense."  but in the case of family it could be very much self-defense in a broader perspective and the game plan for "self-defense" as a group is not the same as "self-defense" as individual.
> 
> I like to often show animals behavior for things like this because it's the most honest view and much of it is similar to what some of us would do. Or what is the best decision.
> 
> ...


preditors generaly like pray that stands still,  so they dont have to bother chasing them, that rather why they tend to sneak up on them,

to be clear there are two sorts of preditor in the animal kindom, ambush preditors, that arnt keen on running very far if at all as they quickly consume more energy than they will get from the meal and persistant preditors , whos whole game plan is to run longer than the prey  till it calaspse with exhaustion,
early humans were persistant predators,  where they would chase a gazelle etal for 5 hours or more, in much the same way that a wolf pack will


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 3, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> There's self-defense where I'm the only one in danger and then there's "Self-defense" when there may be a need to come to the aid of a family member or a child.


When people talk about SD, they don't want to talk about to defend for others. This is a very selfish attitude in my opinion.

Without "侠 (Xia) - heroic", MA training is meaningless.


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## jobo (Jan 3, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When people talk about SD, they don't want to talk about to defend for others. This is a very selfish attitude in my opinion.
> 
> Without 侠 (Xia) - heroic, MA training is meaningless.


one very quickly becomes the other if you get in the way, they will attack you, then its sd defence again


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## MetalBoar (Jan 3, 2021)

Being fit, and strong in particular, is really valuable for self defense. If you're selling a complete "system" in the sense of, "Do my program and it's everything you need to do to be prepared to defend yourself", I think you need to include fitness as a component. If you mean "system" as in a martial arts style that provides effective skills for self defense then I don't think it needs to include a fitness component, but it would be irresponsible of an instructor if they didn't either include it or make it very clear that it is a necessary addition.

I also agree with @jobo that if your goal is fitness for self defense putting in 5 minutes of maximum effort work on a regular basis is sufficient to achieve a high level of fitness for that purpose. 3 minutes might even be better. Now that's not ideal if you want to compete in a martial sport that goes 5, 5 minute rounds with a 1 minute rest between, unless your strategy is to win or lose in the first round, but I'd argue it's superior if your sole focus is on surviving an attack. I'd probably also add some resistance training onto that for best results, depending on what you're doing during your 3-5 minute routine, but you'd get a lot of benefit even without anything extra.


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## dvcochran (Jan 3, 2021)

jobo said:


> well generslly no it wont, 300 kicks will teach you to kick 300 times, it will have little effect on how hard you kick once


I can't agree with that one Jobo.


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## MetalBoar (Jan 3, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When people talk about SD, they don't want to talk about to defend for others. This is a very selfish attitude in my opinion.
> 
> Without "侠 (Xia) - heroic", MA training is meaningless.


I agree with this. If you only care about saving yourself you can spend your time getting good at sprinting and maybe pick up a very small tool set of standing grappling techniques so that you've got the ability to break loose and run, you aren't really doing martial arts. If you are spending any real time studying martial arts for the purpose of being able to fight off an aggressor you ought to be learning how to apply it to protect others as well.


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## jobo (Jan 3, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> I can't agree with that one Jobo.


id be intrested in you explaing the biology of how you think that would help, i know its a done thing, but it seems like no one has ever asked why? 

why dont sprinters run marathons, it must help, mustnt it?


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## dvcochran (Jan 3, 2021)

jobo said:


> id be intrested in you explaing the biology of how you think that would help, i know its a done thing, but it seems like no one has ever asked why?
> 
> why dont sprinters run marathons, it must help, mustnt it?


Just the simple rule of repetition.  That said, good instruction would be paramount for most people (crap in/crap out). But 300 kicks done with regularity, even when done with poor technique should improve conditioning some I would think.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 3, 2021)

jobo said:


> preditors generaly like pray that stands still, so they dont have to bother chasing them, that rather why they tend to sneak up on them,


From what I can tell predators like will often miss things that stand still.  In nature that's a natural defensive response for baby animals. 

For adults animals the prey that runs is the prey that is weaker than you.  The prey that faces you is often the prey that will be the most difficult to take down.  Ambush predators don't care if you are still or not.  They only thing they care about is about attacking prey when they are least ready which is why they sneak up on them.  It's no different than sucker punches and purse snatches where the majority happen when the prey is least ready to defend against it.

Case in point.  The lady turns to face the Cheetah "shoos" the cheetah away.  Notice the hesitation that such an action caused.





Predators don't care if you are still or not.  They mainly care if you are watching and become more hesitant when you are.





You can see the same behavior here as each approach is a sneak up approach. 





Almost all predators will stalk you or lure you.  Even the ones that run after their prey, they will stalk you first to get a jump on you when you least expected.  Those that don't chase will stalk you to death relentlessly.   Wolves are like that when they hunt in a pack.  If they are unsuccessful the first time then they will continue to stalk the herd for another try.  

Human's do the same thing as well.  Where stalking cases require restraining orders, and in some cases turn into murder after a long period of stalking.   The animal kingdom is an honest representation of predatory behavior.  Whatever you find in the animal kingdom you can find it's copy in the human species.


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## dvcochran (Jan 3, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I think this is a question that gets over looked.   There's self-defense where I'm the only one in danger and then there's "Self-defense" when there may be a need to come to the aid of a family member or a child.   Technically that's not classified as "self-defense."  but in the case of family it could be very much self-defense in a broader perspective and the game plan for "self-defense" as a group is not the same as "self-defense" as individual.
> 
> I like to often show animals behavior for things like this because it's the most honest view and much of it is similar to what some of us would do. Or what is the best decision.
> 
> ...


Wow. That is some incredible video. Lioness never had a chance against that crowd.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 3, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When people talk about SD, they don't want to talk about to defend for others. This is a very selfish attitude in my opinion.
> 
> Without "侠 (Xia) - heroic", MA training is meaningless.


Which is crazy because sometimes a person's well being is directly tied to another person's well being.   So you would think that reality would take up more time in self-defense classes.  The most I've ever heard of was "Safety in Numbers" but never what do do if someone in that group is being targeted or attack.


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## jobo (Jan 3, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> Just the simple rule of repetition.  That said, good instruction would be paramount for most people (crap in/crap out). But 300 kicks done with regularity, even when done with poor technique should improve conditioning some I would think.


well obsolutly the conditioning to do 300 kicks, not the conditioning to do one that criples them, why 300 if its so good why not 350, that must ve better


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 3, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> Wow. That is some incredible video. Lioness never had a chance against that crowd.


Which shows another thing about self-defense.  1 vs 1 I'm the winner.  1 vs 4.  It's not going to be an easy day. Especially if a more skilled buffalo shows up.

1 vs 4 I'm find if the 4 all suck.  But all it takes is for an extra guy to come in that is on my skill level, so now i have to fight that guy plus the other 3 who will be taking the cheap shots.


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## dvcochran (Jan 3, 2021)

jobo said:


> well obsolutly the conditioning to do 300 kicks, not the conditioning to do one that criples them, why 300 if its so good why not 350, that must ve better


Just a randomly chosen number I think.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 3, 2021)

jobo said:


> one very quickly becomes the other if you get in the way, they will attack you, then its sd defence again


Yep that's always a possibility and in some cases the person who you were trying to help is the one that starts attacking you.


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## dvcochran (Jan 3, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Which shows another thing about self-defense.  1 vs 1 I'm the winner.  1 vs 4.  It's not going to be an easy day. Especially if a more skilled buffalo shows up.
> 
> 1 vs 4 I'm find if the 4 all suck.  But all it takes is for an extra guy to come in that is on my skill level, so now i have to fight that guy plus the other 3 who will be taking the cheap shots.


Agree. If there is no way out of the 1 vs 4 scenario it solidifies the idea to really, really hurt the first guy; to make your point and make the other three give pause. Since I can't run very fast any more (at all really) it would be my only choice. 
Back in the day I was very certain that I could deal with most anyone in one of three ways. Play with them, embarrass them, or hurt them. That mindset has been gone for some time now. But I feel the premise is sound for most good, seasoned fighters who are in their peak. This does not include the occasional bar fight gang who just plain likes fighting.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 3, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> Wow. That is some incredible video. Lioness never had a chance against that crowd.


Those 2 bad guys in this clip would never have any chance to fight against the full bus of passengers.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 3, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> Agree. If there is no way out of the 1 vs 4 scenario it solidifies the idea to really, really hurt the first guy; to make your point and make the other three give pause. Since I can't run very fast any more (at all really) it would be my only choice.
> Back in the day I was very certain that I could deal with most anyone in one of three ways. Play with them, embarrass them, or hurt them. That mindset has been gone for some time now. But I feel the premise is sound for most good, seasoned fighters who are in their peak. This does not include the occasional bar fight gang who just plain likes fighting.


Yeah I'm at the age where I can run away fast, I just know know if it's faster than the guy that's chasing me.  So it boils down to can I run away fast enough and far enough for the other person to give up chase.  Or will the run take more energy out of me than the person chasing me.    The self-defense lesson I teach with that is that I don't always have to outrun my attacker if I can keep distance.  If I'm one side of a car and he's on the other then it will be a long time before he catches me.   If I can keep distance then I may not have to run.   I can just travel down the street for a long way without running just as long as I can keep my distance from my attacker.

Where I live, there are stores and sometimes there's traffic.   If I can put traffic in between me and my attacker then the better.  There are just other ways that may be more practical

I remember seeing one video where a man was being attacked with a knife.  He ran away.  The attacker was faster and stabbed him in the back then continued to stab the victim until he died.   That's was the same day that my perspective on "running away" always being the answer changed.  Now I put it into context. So now I say  Runaway if.....you can do A or do B


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jan 3, 2021)

jobo said:


> it most certainly can be done, it just not that common, it seems.
> 
> many years ago a dojo i was at devoted around a half of the run time to fitness, the net result was after three months i was literally fighting fit,
> 
> ...


If folks attend enough, both can be done. If folks are in for 2 hours a week, not so much.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jan 3, 2021)

jobo said:


> you asked if it was the,systems responcibility to deliver fitness and that this woulnt leave enouhh time for tecnque, plainly thats you priortising one over the other


Putting priority on one over the other. Not excluding one. It’s not a binary thing.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jan 3, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> *What makes a Martial Arts System Practical for Physical Self-Defense?*
> 
> Which MA system will you train?
> 
> ...


That’s a false dichotomy. And I think you know it.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 3, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> That’s a false dichotomy. And I think you know it.


I don't know. Why?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jan 3, 2021)

jobo said:


> there also the ussue, that fitness trainibg doesnt have to take a long time to be effective, if its better or worse than a longer time is up for debate, but its a lot better than skipping it entirly.
> 
> from an sd point if veiw, a capability to deliver,5 minetes of maximal effort will be very useful, that actually only takes 5 minets of training time to achieve, you just do more and more in the 5 mins till your at peak fitness


You seem to think that’s a refutation of something I said.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jan 3, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When people talk about SD, they don't want to talk about to defend for others. This is a very selfish attitude in my opinion.
> 
> Without "侠 (Xia) - heroic", MA training is meaningless.


I’m not sure where you get this idea.


----------



## jobo (Jan 3, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> If folks attend enough, both can be done. If folks are in for 2 hours a week, not so much.


it can if you just do 5 mins of high intensity,

why do you belive that technique should have a higher priority than fitness in an sd system,
.im not sayibg your wrong( though you frequently are and there no reason to supect this is different) just wondering if you put any sort of logic to the issue


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 3, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> I’m not sure where you get this idea.


That's in Chinese culture.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jan 3, 2021)

jobo said:


> id be intrested in you explaing the biology of how you think that would help, i know its a done thing, but it seems like no one has ever asked why?
> 
> why dont sprinters run marathons, it must help, mustnt it?


I’ll bet a sprinter does a lot of sprints.


----------



## jobo (Jan 3, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> You seem to think that’s a refutation of something I said.


its a refutation of there isnt enough time to do both effectively


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jan 3, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I don't know. Why?


I dare you to find a school that teaches your first stemmed for the situation you cite. I know many places that teach both, as they fit different situations.

And I think your post was intentionally dishonest.


----------



## jobo (Jan 3, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> I’ll bet a sprinter does a lot of sprints.


suprisingly very few in my program, certainly not 300, 3,4,5 6,7 that sort of frequency on a daily basis and thats not every day


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jan 3, 2021)

jobo said:


> it can if you just do 5 mins of high intensity,
> 
> why do you belive that technique should have a higher priority than fitness in an sd system,
> .im not sayibg your wrong( though you frequently are and there no reason to supect this is different) just wondering if you put any sort of logic to the issue


5 mins of high intensity work twice a week isn’t enough to make major fitness gains. It will improve longevity and make some fitness gains, but it takes more time for big improvement.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jan 3, 2021)

jobo said:


> suprisingly very few in my program, certainly not 300, 3,4,5 6,7 that sort of frequency on a daily basis and thats not every day


And you claim to be a world-class sprinter. You must be an amazing specimen.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 3, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> And I think your post was intentionally dishonest.


Help the

- weak to fight against the strong,
- good to fight against the evil,
- ...

is more than honest.


----------



## jobo (Jan 3, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> 5 mins of high intensity work twice a week isn’t enough to make major fitness gains. It will improve longevity and make some fitness gains, but it takes more time for big improvement.


no it doesnt, thats largley my program, but its three times a week, the gains made in a few months are mind boggling,

its a fairly simple concept if you want to be fit for 5 mins, train for 6

im not takkibg about some jumping up and down hiit programe im talk about muscular  max effort


----------



## jobo (Jan 3, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> And you claim to be a world-class sprinter. You must be an amazing specimen.


thats the program,  i didnt write it, a conditioning coach did, if your doing max effort you can only do a few, thats biology


----------



## jobo (Jan 3, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> 5 mins of high intensity work twice a week isn’t enough to make major fitness gains. It will improve longevity and make some fitness gains, but it takes more time for big improvement.


here try this and tell ne its not enough


----------



## _Simon_ (Jan 4, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> What makes a Martial Arts System Practical for Physical Self-Defense?
> 
> I'm curious to see the perspectives of others.


It has to be on YouTube.


----------



## stanly stud (Jan 4, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> And you claim to be a world-class sprinter. You must be an amazing specimen.


----------



## stanly stud (Jan 4, 2021)

jobo said:


> here try this and tell ne its not enough



Yeah...mike got his power doing a tricep workout like that ..
Hammer strength lat pull downs, *Barbell squats *for his lower leg work.
Ever heard the saying a boxer is finished when his legs are gone??


----------



## stanly stud (Jan 4, 2021)

jobo said:


> thats the program,  i didnt write it, a conditioning coach did, if your doing max effort you can only do a few, thats biology


----------



## stanly stud (Jan 4, 2021)

i remember when we went running in tracksuits for Boxing training we wore army boots. Running through snow on the Tank Ranges. 
Running up & down fire escape stairs with a sandbag on your shoulders. Trust me you have to build lower body strength & endurance as a Boxer. 
One trainer said; Work F@cking hard now _ or _you´ll get hurt in the ring.


----------



## jobo (Jan 4, 2021)

stanly stud said:


> Yeah...mike got his power doing a tricep workout like that ..
> Hammer strength lat pull downs, *Barbell squats *for his lower leg work.
> Ever heard the saying a boxer is finished when his legs are gone??


but im not a boxer, i have no intent of going 12 rounds with any one, ever, so my training need are some what different to mikes,and thats one example of a short but brutal exercise, you can do the same for your legs if you feel the need


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (Jan 4, 2021)

What drop bear wrote, but as i am not in thos strictly for self defence, just apply the terms of the ability to express it on somone who is violently resisting, in a  effcient manner.  (and obviously in non sterile conditions)

Sounds dodgy if you write it that way and in neutral tones.  


As for how to make such a system, i think everyone sbeen arguing about that since they found out somone else did it diffrently.


----------



## stanly stud (Jan 4, 2021)

jobo said:


> but im not a boxer, i have no intent of going 12 rounds with any one, ever, so my training need are some what different to mikes,and thats one example of a short but brutal exercise, you can do the same for your legs if you feel the need


OK if you don´t get it this is a fighting forum. Boxing is fighting.
Every sprinter  i have ever met does intensive lower body work. Squats, box Squats; Leg press, Lunges; step ups for Quads, Hammies, Hip Flexors.
Going round in circles. you just do not listen.


----------



## jobo (Jan 4, 2021)

stanly stud said:


> i remember when we went running in tracksuits for Boxing training we wore army boots. Running through snow on the Tank Ranges.
> Running up & down fire escape stairs with a sandbag on your shoulders. Trust me you have to build lower body strength & endurance as a Boxer.
> One trainer said; Work F@cking hard now _ or _you´ll get hurt in the ring.


the army is generaly quite happy to kill you, so maybe not the best training  regime,running in army boots all that sensible,particulaly when your getting on a bit


----------



## stanly stud (Jan 4, 2021)

jobo said:


> the army is generaly quite happy to kill you, so maybe not the best training  regime,running in army boots all that sensible,particulaly when your getting on a bit



I am talking about some years back. Granted it was a bit rough & primitive by todays standards but we got fit. Special Diet. Loads & Loads of sparring.
I do not think you have ever seriously trained hard or in any fighting system.


----------



## jobo (Jan 4, 2021)

stanly stud said:


> OK if you don´t get it this is a fighting forum. Boxing is fighting.
> Every sprinter  i have ever met does intensive lower body work. Squats, box Squats; Leg press, Lunges; step ups for Quads, Hammies, Hip Flexors.
> Going round in circles. you just do not listen.


i know boxing is fighting, but its not my intent, to box, certainly not someone like iron mike,


----------



## stanly stud (Jan 4, 2021)

jobo said:


> i know boxing is fighting, but its not my intent, to box, certainly not someone like iron mike,


Used to have Older Guys like you on Bodybuilding forums. They hung around but never trained themselves. 
Won´t say what they were called as i do not really know the rules on here.


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (Jan 4, 2021)

jobo said:


> the army is generaly quite happy to kill you, so maybe not the best training  regime,running in army boots all that sensible,particulaly when your getting on a bit



There are some things you shouldnt model a training regime after, PT is fine to do it from the army.   Actually since they are cautious about short term  injurues etc it might be safer. 

Although, you shouldnt model training after a selection test, they arent meant to be for training and would lead to a lot of pain.    Eg SF selection tests are not training they are selection tests and i dont belive many do them again unless its in reality.  Plus given they have high drop out rates it wouldnt benefit you at all.

How ever with that being said, using the militaries fitness entry requirements as a goal is a fairly decent thing to do and strive for.   If you dont have a job that needs any, you can just take that from a job that does. (Police, Fire, Military etc)  They generally give sound advise to achive the goals and how to get to the standard of entry on websites as well. 





stanly stud said:


> I am talking about some years back. Granted it was a bit rough & primitive by todays standards but we got fit. Special Diet. Loads & Loads of sparring.
> I do not think you have ever seriously trained hard or in any fighting system.



Funny thing, there is a old P company doccumentary i found and i think like half of them were on painkillers for some duration of it. (some could have been on it for duration)  this was pre 2000, i think peole may have skimmed around that fact.         Oh take that back, it was anti inflamitories as they had foot swelling etc.     Now good luck training that, then working manual labour.


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## stanly stud (Jan 4, 2021)

Rat said:


> Funny thing, there is a old P company doccumentary i found and i think like half of them were on painkillers for some duration of it. (some could have been on it for duration) this was pre 2000, i think peole may have skimmed around that fact. Oh take that back, it was anti inflamitories as they had foot swelling etc. Now good luck training that, then working manual labour.



Yes you used to give you brufen(as we called it) or Ibuprofen ( was called something like that).

Actually shin splints were more common running in Boots. however if you train like he´s saying "Heavy duty" style max intensity on few sets/ Reps you can get injured too. Not that he´s really doing Heavy Duty style weight workouts  _ala  _Mike Mentzer.
Some of the Boot camp training was very popular.


----------



## jobo (Jan 4, 2021)

stanly stud said:


> I am talking about some years back. Granted it was a bit rough & primitive by todays standards but we got fit. Special Diet. Loads & Loads of sparring.
> I do not think you have ever seriously trained hard or in any fighting system.



there are different trainibg mythologies for different sports and different times in your life, not as you seem to think,  just one .

when i was in my 20s i did open competition , that was very different training than i do now, for a good reason, the demands were completly different,

but i train hard, just not long, as doing both is impossible  certainly at my age, lm 61 with the body of a reasonable fit 30 year old, that was not so when i was 51 and it didnt happen by accident .

my training has more to do with holding back the years,  than gettibg ready for a boxing match, that will never happen

and ive no intrest at all in developing muscle, beyond that which happens by increasing performance


----------



## stanly stud (Jan 4, 2021)

jobo said:


> there are different trainibg mythologies for different sports and different times in your life, not as you seem to think,  just one .
> 
> when i was in my 20s i did open competition , that was very different training than i do now, for a good reason, the demands were completly different,
> 
> ...


So why a martial arts forum?
would you not be better on a Cycling/running forum?
Of course you can write where you like but why come on a forum which is not suited to you or your training goals and just give negative criticism all the time?


----------



## jobo (Jan 4, 2021)

stanly stud said:


> So why a martial arts forum?
> would you not be better on a Cycling/running forum?
> Of course you can write where you like but why come on a forum which is not suited to you or your training goals and just give negative criticism all the time?


because among cycling , football, running chess and pool i do karate.

my training has help my karate no end, coz its not boxing


----------



## stanly stud (Jan 4, 2021)

another point is i have nothing against older People what ever their Goals / sexuel Orientation. This Guy is 60 & trains hard with weights & Cycles 100s of miles. 
he still trains legs & upper body. OK a short range Leg extension; Trap Bar deadlifts; stiff legged Deadlifts . He is fit & has not bad legs. He´s also a Gay man. His videos are good. Movement is still King !!


----------



## stanly stud (Jan 4, 2021)

jobo said:


> because among cycling , football, running chess and pool i do karate.
> 
> my training has help my karate no end, coz its not boxing


so karate with no leg work? sitting down?


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## stanly stud (Jan 4, 2021)

Most call it a Trap Bar. he had a few injuries but still found a way to train for his cyling. Isometrics will not cut it. also he has a video how he shortens the range of motion on leg extensions.


----------



## jobo (Jan 4, 2021)

stanly stud said:


> so karate with no leg work? sitting down?


my sprinting increases my leg strengh, leg strengh isnt my problem with karate, my flexability is,


----------



## stanly stud (Jan 4, 2021)

jobo said:


> my flexability is,


yeah sitting shortens your muscles. can twist it anyway you like but you need real leg training with built in stretches..._ stiff legged deads _or watch the guy aboves videos. trying to help you bro


----------



## jobo (Jan 4, 2021)

stanly stud said:


> Most call it a Trap Bar. he had a few injuries but still found a way to train for his cyling. Isometrics will not cut it. also he has a video how he shortens the range of motion on leg extensions.


but same again, there are different techniques for different outcome,  last time i got into cycling, i was intrested in power for speed , this time its not of the least concern to me, as the goal is to go slowly over an extended distance on the flat, day after day, that said, it is pumping my quads up a bit, that would be the extra glucose stored in the muscle


----------



## jobo (Jan 4, 2021)

stanly stud said:


> yeah sitting shortens your muscles. can twist it anyway you like but you need real leg training with built in stretches..._ stiff legged deads _or watch the guy aboves videos. trying to help you bro


, i dont really sit anymore,  it more of a reclined postion with my feet up,


----------



## stanly stud (Jan 4, 2021)

jobo said:


> , i dont really sit anymore,  it more of a reclined postion with my feet up,


Latosa does teach drills sitting try these mate 









So there you go. can train without your legs


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (Jan 4, 2021)

stanly stud said:


> Latosa does teach drills sitting try these mate
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That just made me think back to the ameridotae self defence against somone in a wheel chair video.    Which despite being for comedic value, highlights some of the difficultues in fighting if you are wheel chair bound.


----------



## stanly stud (Jan 4, 2021)

Rat said:


> That just made me think back to the ameridotae self defence against somone in a wheel chair video.    Which despite being for comedic value, highlights some of the difficultues in fighting if you are wheel chair bound.


I remember seeing a film about a guy who had some kind of muscle wasting disease & was on crutches. He formed his own way of fighting no joke. 
@ 2:46


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## jobo (Jan 4, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> And you claim to be a world-class sprinter. You must be an amazing specimen.


i dont know about exceptional, ussual perhaps, i do seem to be considerably fitter than most of the 60 year olds i know, how that breaks in to a larger population sample is difficult to say.

to be clear the world record for 61 onwards is patheticaly slow, by 20 year old standards, i wouldnt get in the team, but fortunately im not competing with them and its a world record, im reasonably sure, that what makes me unusual  is the fact im training to do it, rather than an awful lot of other people in ther 60s couldnt do like wise, if they stopped making excuses and go train for 5 years, , which probebly means they will never catch me unless they started 5 years ago, or cthey are infact exceptional

nb i didnt know i was training for sprinting  when i started, it just worked out that way as my expectation increased


----------



## stanly stud (Jan 4, 2021)

jobo said:


> to be clear the world record for 61 onwards


you also said you are a world breaking cyclist ? 300 miles was it not ? or are you training for that?
getting confused as you seem to be mentioning a lot of world records.


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## jobo (Jan 4, 2021)

stanly stud said:


> you also said you are a world breaking cyclist ? 300 miles was it not ? or are you training for that?
> getting confused as you seem to be mentioning a lot of world records.


no thats a holiday,  im not aware there is a world record for holidays?


----------



## stanly stud (Jan 4, 2021)

jobo said:


> no thats a holiday,  im not aware there is a world record for holidays?


  er...ok mate


----------



## jobo (Jan 4, 2021)

stanly stud said:


> er...ok mate


im planning to cycle the canal net work down the welsh border, to bath then over to London,  its circa 300 miles, i havent actualy counted more accuratly than that,

but im doing it coz i think il enjoy it, rather than a fitness goal, but its become a fitness goal to be able to do it, i couldnt get 5 miles a few months back, now the 30 miles aday i want to do, is there, but i cant do it every day yet, 

to be honest i could walk it with ease at 20 miles a day, but im committed  to cyling it now, i may end up doing alternate days, walking and cycling, if i cant get the freqency up for April


----------



## stanly stud (Jan 4, 2021)

jobo said:


> im planning to cycle the canal net work down the welsh border, to bath then over to London,  its circa 300 miles, i havent actualy counted more accuratly than that,
> 
> but im doing it coz i think il enjoy it, rather than a fitness goal, but its become a fitness goal to be able to do it, i couldnt get 5 miles a few months back, now the 30 miles aday i want to do, is there, but i cant do it every day yet,
> 
> to be honest i could walk it with ease at 20 miles a day, but im committed  to cyling it now, i may end up doing alternate days, walking and cycling, if i cant get the freqency up for April


_
But you say you can train in 5 minutes. so now you will cycle 300 miles?


 

_


----------



## jobo (Jan 4, 2021)

stanly stud said:


> _But you say you can train in 5 minutes. so now you will cycle 300 miles?View attachment 23508
> _


no mate i distinctly said, training to cycle for 5 hours, takes 5 hours training, learnig to sprint for 12 seconds takes eer 12 second
being extremly fit for 5 minetes takes 5 minetes
being able to play football for an hour, takes an hour

chess however is the exception, it takes far longer than 40 mins to be able to play well for 40 m

let me know if your having trouble with the concept and il try to simplify  it a bit more


----------



## stanly stud (Jan 4, 2021)

View attachment 23507


jobo said:


> no mate i distinctly said, training to cycle for 5 hours, takes 5 hours training, learnig to sprint for 12 seconds takes eer 12 second
> being extremly fit for 5 minetes takes 5 minetes
> beibg able toplay football for an hour, takes an hour
> 
> ...


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jan 4, 2021)

stanly stud said:


> yeah sitting shortens your muscles.


I'm in IT and this is my biggest challenge since taking my current Job.  I do a lot of sitting so now I have to dedicate more stretching than previously before.  My flexibility has never been as bad as it's been in the last 2 years


----------



## jobo (Jan 4, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm in IT and this is my biggest challenge since taking my current Job.  I do a lot of sitting so now I have to dedicate more stretching than previously before.  My flexibility has never been as bad as it's been in the last 2 years


get a high desk so you can stand


----------



## MetalBoar (Jan 4, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm in IT and this is my biggest challenge since taking my current Job.  I do a lot of sitting so now I have to dedicate more stretching than previously before.  My flexibility has never been as bad as it's been in the last 2 years


I've never been flexible and that was true when I was 23 and waiting tables and walking all night for a living. When I started working in IT in my late 20's it got so much harder.


----------



## stanly stud (Jan 4, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm in IT and this is my biggest challenge since taking my current Job.  I do a lot of sitting so now I have to dedicate more stretching than previously before.  My flexibility has never been as bad as it's been in the last 2 years


yes i remember a lot of office workers coming in the gym with lower back pains or neck, C6/C7  normally. 
some upper back work reverse machine flys & lower back work helped. 45% hypers. so much you can do


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## stanly stud (Jan 4, 2021)

good stretch in the hypers & contraction in the upper part. slowly. 
the reverse fly are great for upper traps,rear delts. can use a cable /bands.


----------



## MetalBoar (Jan 4, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> 5 mins of high intensity work twice a week isn’t enough to make major fitness gains. It will improve longevity and make some fitness gains, but it takes more time for big improvement.


Hey Gerry, I've been on this forum long enough to know that Jobo can be abrasive in his posts and frequently declines to do anything to elaborate or sell others on his ideas, but I agree with his views on fitness far more often than I disagree. I can say from personal experience training myself and a lot of other people that 5 minutes of high intensity work 2x/week is sufficient time to make huge improvements to fitness and tremendous gains in strength, though my primary workouts are more like 7 minutes 1x/week. I don't currently have the experience to feel confident training people at that level of intensity without more equipment than the usual martial arts studio has space for but I have no doubt that others can do it.

I think there are (at least) 2 primary roadblocks to clear communication around this topic:

Our definitions of "fitness". I don't know what you consider fit, but a lot of people who actually work out (not to imply that you don't!) seem to really focus on endurance, how long one can continue with physical exertion, as their primary metric and then maybe body composition as a secondary metric and frequently impact on health as a tertiary measurement - strength may or may not even be on the list. I've got 2 main metrics, 1) How do your structural and metabolic adaptations enable or inhibit your ability to perform your desired activities? 2) How do your structural and metabolic adaptations improve or degrade your health? So, if an exercise program supports these 2 requirements well then I would deem it to be an effective fitness routine.

For example, I have no interest in running a 10k or anything longer so I don't train for that and wouldn't be very good at it if I had to go run one right now. If someone else is really invested in distance running they may think I'm terribly unfit and more relevant to this conversation, would be correct (by their definition) in stating that there is no way I could be fit without putting in at least a couple of hours a week spent on running. If their definition of fit was being able to go all out fighting for their life for 30-180 seconds without getting winded until after the conflict was resolved (the definition that more closely matches this thread) then 5 minutes 2x/week of true high intensity work is going to be both more efficient and vastly superior to running for a few hours several days a week.


Our definitions of high intensity. A lot of people think high intensity, they think really working up a sweat, or maybe doing reps until they're really feeling an intense burn. I mean working as hard as you can without rest until you physically can't do anything but carefully walk afterwards. If you have the skill and the grit to do this it won't take more than 10 minutes and if you focus on nothing but big, compound movements it won't take more than 5. Some people will say, "Oh, I can work that hard for 30 minutes". No, they are holding back a lot, or they're taking big breaks, if they can do it for 30 minutes. As just 2 examples, I've had both a professional cyclist in his 20's and a newly promoted BJJ black belt need to lie down on the floor and try not to vomit after a 7 minute (total, start to finish) workout. That level of work produces a tremendous adaptive response and isn't maintainable at a frequency of much more than 1x/per week for a lot of people, 2x is definitely plenty.
So, I'm not saying that you're wrong, but I'm also not willing to concede that you are right.  I'm saying that we may have different fitness goals and that you may not understand what kind of training I'm (and I think Jobo) are advocating.

Cheers!

Michael

EDIT to add: Relevant to this thread: I only offer private 1-on-1 instruction and I can't imagine training a group all at the same time to this level of intensity, so it could be a tough add for a full martial arts class.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 4, 2021)

MetalBoar said:


> Hey Gerry, I've been on this forum long enough to know that Jobo can be abrasive in his posts and frequently declines to do anything to elaborate or sell others on his ideas, but I agree with his views on fitness far more often than I disagree. I can say from personal experience training myself and a lot of other people that 5 minutes of high intensity work 2x/week is sufficient time to make huge improvements to fitness and tremendous gains in strength, though my primary workouts are more like 7 minutes 1x/week. I don't currently have the experience to feel confident training people at that level of intensity without more equipment than the usual martial arts studio has space for but I have no doubt that others can do it.
> 
> I think there are (at least) 2 primary roadblocks to clear communication around this topic:
> 
> ...


Can you provide a video of this type of workout? I'd be curious to try a bodyweight version of it, since I typically need to feel something to actually understand it.


----------



## MetalBoar (Jan 4, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Can you provide a video of this type of workout? I'd be curious to try a bodyweight version of it, since I typically need to feel something to actually understand it.


I just moved cross country and most all of my stuff (computer with videos and all my gym equipment) is in a trailer over a 1000 miles away right now. I'll look around on line and see if I can find anyone else who's put up something good. If you don't hear back from me on this in ~ 3-4 weeks feel free to hassle me again and I should have my gym set up and I'll record something for you.

I personally find it hard to work this hard with body weight or free weights (without a really good spotter) so you may have some challenges reproducing the exact results but you should get an idea of what I'm talking about. It also takes some practice to be able to work this hard with good form. I would say that someone who's fairly gifted at physical activity (but no kind of prodigy) takes ~ 8-10 sessions to really get the basics down and then you'll still see significant improvements in their form and grit over the course of their first year training. 20 years after I started training this way I still find new ways to squeeze a little bit more out of each set.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 4, 2021)

MetalBoar said:


> I just moved cross country and most all of my stuff (computer with videos and all my gym equipment) is in a trailer over a 1000 miles away right now. I'll look around on line and see if I can find anyone else who's put up something good. If you don't hear back from me on this in ~ 3-4 weeks feel free to hassle me again and I should have my gym set up and I'll record something for you.
> 
> I personally find it hard to work this hard with body weight or free weights (without a really good spotter) so you may have some challenges reproducing the exact results but you should get an idea of what I'm talking about. It also takes some practice to be able to work this hard with good form. I would say that someone who's fairly gifted at physical activity (but no kind of prodigy) takes ~ 8-10 sessions to really get the basics down and then you'll still see significant improvements in their form and grit over the course of their first year training. 20 years after I started training this way I still find new ways to squeeze a little bit more out of each set.


Hopefully I'll remember. While I've only got access to bodyweight/freeweight stuff at my house (great spotter though), I'd definitely be interested in seeing how this idea works. Also curious if there's a higher injury rate as people get 'run down', or if that's offset by the amount of rest that occurs.


----------



## jobo (Jan 4, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Can you provide a video of this type of workout? I'd be curious to try a bodyweight version of it, since I typically need to feel something to actually understand it.


i posted one  such for gerry, a page back, its one of three that i do in a week, that between them hit the whole body,

there are clearly variations you may want to mix up several compoubds in one session that foxuses an arm push strengh

it called sore in 6 ( mins) i can testify my muscles scream for an hour afterwards


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jan 4, 2021)

jobo said:


> get a high desk so you can stand


That's what I do at work.  But I don't have one for home yet.  It's on my to do list.

Edit.   I work from home now.


----------



## jobo (Jan 4, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> That's what I do at work.  But I don't have one for home yet.  It's on my to do list.
> 
> Edit.   I work from home now.


you may find a shelving unit cheaper

or some 2 by 2 and lenghen the legs on the desk you have


----------



## Steve (Jan 4, 2021)

stanly stud said:


> another point is i have nothing against older People what ever their Goals / sexuel Orientation. This Guy is 60 & trains hard with weights & Cycles 100s of miles.
> he still trains legs & upper body. OK a short range Leg extension; Trap Bar deadlifts; stiff legged Deadlifts . He is fit & has not bad legs. *He´s also a Gay man*. His videos are good. Movement is still King !!


Trying to figure out how being gay helps or hinders his fitness efforts. Did I miss something?  Just trying to keep up with the thread and I don't get this statement at all.


----------



## Steve (Jan 4, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> That's what I do at work.  But I don't have one for home yet.  It's on my to do list.
> 
> Edit.   I work from home now.


Ikea has a sturdy mechanical crank standing desk.  It's pretty cheap and sturdy.  My wife needed something fancier because she sits and stands back and forth all day long.  I just leave mine standing all day, so this one suits my needs very well. 

SKARSTA Desk sit/stand, white, 47 1/4x27 1/2" - IKEA

I got the bigger one and it has plenty of surface area for my needs.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 4, 2021)

jobo said:


> i posted one  such for gerry, a page back, its one of three that i do in a week, that between them hit the whole body,
> 
> there are clearly variations you may want to mix up several compoubds in one session that foxuses an arm push strengh
> 
> it called sore in 6 ( mins) i can testify my muscles scream for an hour afterwards


Cool. I'll give it a look/try tonight when I get home.


----------



## Steve (Jan 4, 2021)

On the topic, if by "physical self defense" you mean fighting, I think @drop bear nailed it, though how to achieve that is the big question.  

If by "physical self defense" you mean being physically safer tomorrow than you are today, that becomes much more complex. and will be somewhat unique to your circumstances.  A cop being more safe is different than an IT specialist being more safe.  Someone who goes out and attends protests has different needs than a college coed (though both are statistically at high risk for being assaulted).  A white collar lawyer will have different needs than a social worker.  I read an account of an ER nurse who was bitten by a covid-19 denier convinced that she was lying to him about why he was sick.  I don't think I'm likely to experience this.

And when we add the new level of crazy that is the Proud Boys or one of these other groups of well armed traitors, what does physical self defense look like there?


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jan 4, 2021)

MetalBoar said:


> Jobo can be abrasive


 First thing that came to mind. lol   Understatement.. I prefer a serious Jobo.  I don't like the Pot Stirrer Jobo.





Steve said:


> Ikea has a sturdy mechanical crank standing desk.  It's pretty cheap and sturdy.  My wife needed something fancier because she sits and stands back and forth all day long.  I just leave mine standing all day, so this one suits my needs very well.
> 
> SKARSTA Desk sit/stand, white, 47 1/4x27 1/2" - IKEA
> 
> I got the bigger one and it has plenty of surface area for my needs.


Thanks.. That looks good for the kneeling chair that I have and it's not big compared to some of the other stuff out there.  Simple and practical that's what I need.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jan 4, 2021)

Steve said:


> On the topic, if by "physical self defense" you mean fighting


yes physically having to lay hands on someone to ensure your safety.  It doesn't have to be fighting as there are escapes that can be done that don't require punching someone back.   It could be as simple as breaking a grip or parrying a hind that is trying grab your arm.   For example,  if you see that someone is trying to grab your arm you can parry the incoming arm so that they are not able to grab.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 4, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> if you see that someone is trying to grab your arm you can parry the incoming arm so that they are not able to grab.


This is why you can use

1. Double circles grabbing - You grab your opponent's wrist, his arm rotate away. You rotate your arm the same way as he does, and grab his wrist on the 2nd rotation.
2. Reverse circle grabbing - You grab your opponent's wrist, his arm rotate away. You rotate your arm into the reverse direction, and meet his arm half way.

This is why the MA training is so interested. You try to grab my arm. I rotate my arm away. You follow my rotation, and grab my arm while my arm is still rotating. My arm rotation is completely as you predict.


----------



## stanly stud (Jan 4, 2021)

jobo said:


> i posted one such for gerry, a page back, its one of three that i do in a week, that between them hit the whole body,


Can you post up _you _doing this workout so we can see the results of this Amazing training?
As they say the proof of the Pudding is in the eating


----------



## jobo (Jan 4, 2021)

stanly stud said:


> Can you post up _you _doing this workout so we can see the results of this Amazing training?
> As they say the proof of the Pudding is in the eating


no, you already appear to be stalking me, im  not encouraging you to take it further


----------



## stanly stud (Jan 4, 2021)

MetalBoar said:


> Hey Gerry, I've been on this forum long enough to know that Jobo can be abrasive in his posts and frequently declines to do anything to elaborate or sell others on his ideas, but I agree with his views on fitness far more often than I disagree. I can say from personal experience training myself and a lot of other people that 5 minutes of high intensity work 2x/week is sufficient time to make huge improvements to fitness and tremendous gains in strength, though my primary workouts are more like 7 minutes 1x/week. I don't currently have the experience to feel confident training people at that level of intensity without more equipment than the usual martial arts studio has space for but I have no doubt that others can do it.
> 
> I think there are (at least) 2 primary roadblocks to clear communication around this topic:
> 
> ...



5 to 10 mins HIIT training will not achieve the same results as sparring, bag work, staminia work on the road, unless you can teach pro mma fighters a new way as they all are clearly clueless to your wonderfull System.
Sounds like you're selling this as you say you train people. HIIT cardio or weight Workouts are not new. Most HIIT Workouts bring injuries look at dorian yates.


----------



## stanly stud (Jan 4, 2021)

jobo said:


> no, you already appear to be stalking me, im  not encouraging you to take it further


I want to see these results of your training system. 
Is this too much to ask. 
Talk the talk but walk the walk. 
You're talking about it non stop.


----------



## jobo (Jan 4, 2021)

stanly stud said:


> 5 to 10 mins HIIT training will not achieve the same results as sparring, bag work, staminia work on the road, unless you can teach pro mma fighters a new way as they all are clearly clueless to your wonderfull System.
> Sounds like you're selling this as you say you train people. HIIT cardio or weight Workouts are not new. Most HIIT Workouts bring injuries look at dorian yates.


the whole point of the post ( if you read beyond the first paragraph)is its not suposed to train mma fighters at least not on its own, and its not, as covered again in the post ,hiit, thats largly because one of the Is in hiit stands for interval and there are no intervals


----------



## jobo (Jan 4, 2021)

stanly stud said:


> I want to see these results of your training system.
> Is this too much to ask.
> Talk the talk but walk the walk.
> You're talking about it non stop.


your becoming more than a little obsesed with me and its setting off my bunny boiler radar,

now to be fair your not the first person to get an unhealthy obsesion with me, but you are the first to also be a trained killer,

so il pass thanks


----------



## stanly stud (Jan 4, 2021)

jobo said:


> the whole point of the post ( if you read beyond the first paragraph)is its not suposed to train mma fighters at least not on its own, and its not, as covered again in the post ,hiit, thats largly because one of the Is in hiit stands for interval and there are no intervals


It makes no difference post up you doing it. If you are so ripped & fit then please Show us. Don't waffle Show us. Share this Amazing New System!


----------



## jobo (Jan 4, 2021)

stanly stud said:


> It makes no difference post up you doing it. If you are so ripped & fit then please Show us. Don't waffle Show us. Share this Amazing New System!


see post above

strange man on the internet keeps asking for video of me? i wonder if thats a good idea ?


----------



## stanly stud (Jan 4, 2021)

jobo said:


> see post above
> 
> strange man on the internet keeps asking for video of me? i wonder if thats a good idea ?


Ok then i am calling B#llshi#t on your whole Story. No need to mention it again. You have been owned & exposed!


----------



## jobo (Jan 4, 2021)

stanly stud said:


> Ok then i am calling ******** on your whole Story. No need to mention it again. You have been owned & exposed!


exsposed is really the issue that concerns me, strange you brought it up


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jan 4, 2021)

jobo said:


> no, you already appear to be stalking me, im  not encouraging you to take it further


What?!?!?  there's a funny Jobo too?


----------



## jobo (Jan 4, 2021)

stanly stud said:


> Ok then i am calling ******** on your whole Story. No need to mention it again. You have been owned & exposed!


i was having a chat with my young neice about internet danger, i said if some man asks what colour knicker you have on or asks for live exercise shots run a mile and would you belive it two days later it happens to me, talk about coincidence


----------



## jobo (Jan 4, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> What?!?!?  there's a funny Jobo too?


im always being funny, its just you dont always understand my humour


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jan 4, 2021)

jobo said:


> im also being funny, its just you dont always understand my humour


lol.. sounds like that other Jobo that I don't like is trying to come back to the surface.  Fight it with all your might.  Spare 2021.


----------



## stanly stud (Jan 4, 2021)

Jobo uses this


----------



## dvcochran (Jan 4, 2021)

jobo said:


> im always being funny, its just you dont always understand my humour


Nail on the head.
But I am certain that is true for all of us sometimes.


----------



## MetalBoar (Jan 4, 2021)

stanly stud said:


> 5 to 10 mins HIIT training will not achieve the same results as sparring, bag work, staminia work on the road, unless you can teach pro mma fighters a new way as they all are clearly clueless to your wonderfull System.
> Sounds like you're selling this as you say you train people. HIIT cardio or weight Workouts are not new. Most HIIT Workouts bring injuries look at dorian yates.


You seem to be intentionally misinterpreting what I've said and since you don't strike me as stupid I assume you're being intentionally obtuse, which I don't really understand as I think I've been nothing but polite to you and pretty much everyone else on this forum. Regardless I'll try to expand on my earlier post to address your concerns.

I expect that there are MMA fighters who use the same or a similar protocol for a portion of their training. In no place did I say that you could do nothing but HIT strength training and go compete in the UFC. What I've said is that you should train to meet your goals. If your *fitness* goal (notice I have not addressed any other aspect of training) is for self defense, as self defense is the subject of this thread, ideally you want to be able to work at maximum effort without flagging for something short of 5 minutes. If that is your goal you do not need to do hours of road work, you need to train as hard as you can for 5 minutes on a consistent basis in a fashion that will produce a metabolic state as close as possible to what you are going to encounter in a self defense situation. You also need to be as strong as practical in order be able to perform your strikes or apply your grappling as effectively as possible.

I have said that someone who is willing and able to work really hard can get really strong working out something in the neighborhood of 10 minutes/week and I'll go further and state that such a workout will have a significantly beneficial impact on their metabolic adaptations for high intensity, short duration activity such as a self defense encounter. I stand by that and I think it's a great way to go because it leaves you with a lot of time to work on skill development (of whatever sort you choose, sparring, bag work, etc.) in the art you're learning for self defense.

I'm not selling anything to anyone on here (I've got no books, videos, nor anything else for sale online) and in my commercial gym I will and have given just about anyone who's serious a month for free with no obligations as long as I've still got room for new clients, so I stand by my product. There are plenty of people who train in the same or a similar fashion and "my system" was hardly originated nor exclusive to me and nowhere have I claimed that I'm doing anything new, nor that I think should be seen as revolutionary. HIT has been around since before I was born and while I have added my own refinements to what I do it is by and large based on the work of others.

Which brings me to the next point, HIT, not HIIT, nor HIIRT - those are different things. I'm talking about high intensity resistance training, working primarily with big compound movements, working to deep, momentary muscular failure with little or no rest between sets. I personally prefer a slow protocol, measuring time under load rather than counting reps, on machines if you don't have a really reliable spotter, though free weights and body weight are other good options for what I do. There are a number of other protocols that qualify as HIT that I think are similarly good.

Resistance training in general and HIT in particular are very safe. With a slow protocol and and emphasis on good form risk of injury is extremely low. I've had zero client injuries over 15 years and thousands of training sessions, I'm satisfied with that.

Cheers!

Michael


----------



## WaterGal (Jan 4, 2021)

Most of the discussion on this thread seems to be about exercise fitness training, and while of course being in better shape will help you be more successful at defending yourself, fitness training seems to me to be mostly independent of system or style.

So the question is, "what makes a martial arts system practical for self-defense". And I think there are two questions tangled up in there, which is first, basically, "what does practical self-defense mean?", and then "how do you teach people that?".

For the first.... I think that "practical self-defense" (for a civilian) means that an average but dedicated person, who attends class a couple times a week for a year or two, should be able to successfully defend themselves against an average unarmed brawler/creeper/bully.

For the second... I think there are different ways to do that, but I think the training needs to have that that goal in mind. Training needs to be done, at least some of the time, against a resisting opponent. Students should train to defend against realistic attacks/scenarios. (Training to defend against unrealistic "attacker" behavior is a problem I've seen a _lot_.) Students should practice techniques often enough to build muscle memory. Techniques should be... not necessarily simple, per se, but as simple as possible to be successful, not relying too much on on finicky things like pressure points or grabbing a person's hand while they're punching.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 4, 2021)

WaterGal said:


> Most of the discussion on this thread seems to be about exercise fitness training,


Most people like to take fitness training before MA training. I like to decide which MA ability that I want to develop first. I then find a equipment training that can help me.

I want to develop strong grip -> I then find a equipment training that can help me.






I want to develop powerful foot sweep -> I then find a equipment training that can help me.


----------



## stanly stud (Jan 5, 2021)

Listen guys & gals this is intensity not some half baked training programm that no one wants to demonstrate.


----------



## stanly stud (Jan 5, 2021)

JCVD still Trains today in the gym reps & Sets, volume. Him & sly stallone trained with Arnold & franco


----------



## stanly stud (Jan 5, 2021)

A funny clip but sly still Trains today. Franco was a boxer too


----------



## stanly stud (Jan 5, 2021)

MetalBoar said:


> I assume you're being intentionally obtuse,


Nope.. Just do not agree with you. Especially when you & The other guy jobby, jobo or Whatever he's called do not show us. Sure i can take a light weight & maybe squat 5 mins with it but why? Look at the Video of ed corney & arnold now try that & tell me if that's intensity. You are not going to do that in 10 mins with more than one exercise. Tom platz squatted with weights for high reps but He was a genetic freak.. No not all steroids.
No athletic Performance will be dramatically increase in 5/10 mins 1x @ week . Name these Pro athletes you train.

Side Note : i notice when i answer you jobby jobo  is suddenly online.
Are you the same Person?


----------



## Ivan (Jan 5, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> What makes a Martial Arts System Practical for Physical Self-Defense?
> 
> I'm curious to see the perspectives of others.


I think it's more about the mentality it instills in you. For example, Mexican Style Boxing is designed to destroy your opponent. In contrast, Taekwondo only lets you concentrate on landing the first hit since most sparring is point-based.


----------



## Flying Crane (Jan 5, 2021)

Ivan said:


> I think it's more about the mentality it instills in you. For example, Mexican Style Boxing is designed to destroy your opponent. In contrast, Taekwondo only lets you concentrate on landing the first hit since most sparring is point-based.


I don’t know anything about Mexican style boxing.  I’ve never even heard of it as a specific thing.  But if it is truly something designed to destroy the opponent, it is hardly unique.  This is a common trait found in martial arts.  Yes, including TKD, if that is one’s goal and training is done appropriately for it.


----------



## stanly stud (Jan 5, 2021)

this is good


----------



## Ivan (Jan 5, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> I don’t know anything about Mexican style boxing.  I’ve never even heard of it as a specific thing.  But if it is truly something designed to destroy the opponent, it is hardly unique.  This is a common trait found in martial arts.  Yes, including TKD, if that is one’s goal and training is done appropriately for it.


To get into it much, Mexican Style boxing sacrifices your defense for more offense. It's a boxing style that emphasizes mixing the speed of your punches and steamrolling your opponent with physical dominance. It encourages a very aggressive style of boxing by focusing on getting as close to your opponent as possible, but this does lead to taking on more damage too.

If you're interested, you should look into other styles of boxing that come from different countries. Such as American Style, Cuban Style... Many of these styles are based on cultural differences e.g. Mexican is pure "machismo" (chauvinism) in terms that as a man you should be facing your opponent head-on, not "running" (dodging).


----------



## stanly stud (Jan 5, 2021)

Ivan said:


> To get into it much, Mexican Style boxing sacrifices your defense for more offense. It's a boxing style that emphasizes mixing the speed of your punches and steamrolling your opponent with physical dominance. It encourages a very aggressive style of boxing by focusing on getting as close to your opponent as possible, but this does lead to taking on more damage too.
> 
> If you're interested, you should look into other styles of boxing that come from different countries. Such as American Style, Cuban Style... Many of these styles are based on cultural differences e.g. Mexican is pure "machismo" (chauvinism) in terms that as a man you should be facing your opponent head-on, not "running" (dodging).


have to admit i never knew this either. Mind you Boxing has a long history. Even the Greeks boxed sometimes to the death. A bit like modern Bare knuckle boxing. popular in England.


----------



## stanly stud (Jan 5, 2021)




----------



## stanly stud (Jan 5, 2021)

OH..they still have a style of old greek boxing...very intresting.


----------



## stanly stud (Jan 5, 2021)

Underground beer Belly boxing 





Pro.. but i like the amatuer better ..hahaha


----------



## Steve (Jan 5, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> I don’t know anything about Mexican style boxing.  I’ve never even heard of it as a specific thing.  But if it is truly something designed to destroy the opponent, it is hardly unique.  This is a common trait found in martial arts.  Yes, including TKD, if that is one’s goal and training is done appropriately for it.


Can destroying one's opponent be considered self defense?  Seems like the person whom you're trying to destroy is the one doing the defending.

I've always thought it hilarious that some styles focus on curb stomping, crushing trachea and all manner of ways to rip off gonads or pluck out eyeballs.  That has never seemed much like self defense to me.

I'm also curious to hear more about TKD guys who are into this.  Around here, at least, it's usually the ninja and the karateka who are into murder as a means of self defense.


----------



## paitingman (Jan 5, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> I can't agree with that one Jobo.


Same.
It's like saying throwing a baseball 300 times will not improve your ability to throw it home.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk


----------



## Ivan (Jan 5, 2021)

Steve said:


> Can destroying one's opponent be considered self defense?  Seems like the person whom you're trying to destroy is the one doing the defending.
> 
> I've always thought it hilarious that some styles focus on curb stomping, crushing trachea and all manner of ways to rip off gonads or pluck out eyeballs.  That has never seemed much like self defense to me.
> 
> I'm also curious to hear more about TKD guys who are into this.  Around here, at least, it's usually the ninja and the karateka who are into murder as a means of self defense.


I consider it self-defense. I don't care if the other guy is trying to murder me or slap me round the face. He overstepped his boundaries - I'll bare my fangs, and I'll make sure he doesn't do so again. Just because a style has brutal tactics, doesn't mean you can't go easy on your opponent.

Regardless, showing mercy to an opponent, or "going easy on them", is also a lethal mistake.


----------



## stanly stud (Jan 5, 2021)

I think if you are in a life or death situation..worry about the Law later on. However if you beat a guy & he´s no threat & you jump on his head..go to jail. 
Got to be sensible too.


----------



## stanly stud (Jan 5, 2021)

Ivan said:


> Regardless, showing mercy to an opponent, or "going easy on them", is also a lethal mistake.


understand this too. sometimes being nice is seen as a sign of weakness.  I had a few fist fights also with a blade. I beat the guy with a blade badly but in a quick fight i will stop if he´s on the floor & no more threat. I do not want a manslaughter charge. Same with using a beer glass, i saw this a lot. If someone will glass you then he deserves it. The worst bar fights were actually in bars near military bases. I saw a few people get glassed.  The Days of a fist fight went out the window in the mid 80s. I knew a few people who got stabbed too when "down town" on the piss. We had a problem with Turkish people they carry blades.


----------



## Steve (Jan 5, 2021)

Ivan said:


> I consider it self-defense. I don't care if the other guy is trying to murder me or slap me round the face. He overstepped his boundaries - I'll bare my fangs, and I'll make sure he doesn't do so again. Just because a style has brutal tactics, doesn't mean you can't go easy on your opponent.
> 
> Regardless, showing mercy to an opponent, or "going easy on them", is also a lethal mistake.


Is it though?   I mean this as a serious question.  I have no desire to "destroy" anyone, and my experience has never led me to believe that showing mercy is a lethal mistake.  It seems like it might also put you in peril of being on the wrong side of the law.


----------



## jobo (Jan 5, 2021)

Ivan said:


> I consider it self-defense. I don't care if the other guy is trying to murder me or slap me round the face. He overstepped his boundaries - I'll bare my fangs, and I'll make sure he doesn't do so again. Just because a style has brutal tactics, doesn't mean you can't go easy on your opponent.
> 
> Regardless, showing mercy to an opponent, or "going easy on them", is also a lethal mistake.


i agree, hurt them badly, just have a degree of proportionality about inflicting life long injuries to the actual threat they pose, you can still really hurt them


----------



## Flying Crane (Jan 5, 2021)

Ivan said:


> To get into it much, Mexican Style boxing sacrifices your defense for more offense. It's a boxing style that emphasizes mixing the speed of your punches and steamrolling your opponent with physical dominance. It encourages a very aggressive style of boxing by focusing on getting as close to your opponent as possible, but this does lead to taking on more damage too.
> 
> If you're interested, you should look into other styles of boxing that come from different countries. Such as American Style, Cuban Style... Many of these styles are based on cultural differences e.g. Mexican is pure "machismo" (chauvinism) in terms that as a man you should be facing your opponent head-on, not "running" (dodging).



I’m actually not interested, I guess my days of looking at everything out there are in the past.  I did a lot of that, looking to see what other systems are doing.  I spent time training in a number of them.  I’ve found a system that seems to be a good match for me personally and I am content. 

But those traits you describe, having a very aggressive approach, is the same as the system I study.  It isn’t based on machismo.  It is just based on a recognition that if it comes down to it, you need to get the job done quickly.

But my point is, what you are describing is far from unique.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 5, 2021)

Ivan said:


> showing mercy to an opponent, or "going easy on them", is also a lethal mistake.


If you ever compete in golden glove boxing, you will find out that your opponent tries to knock you head off with no mercy (I had competed once in my life). If you don't knock your opponent down, your opponent will put you to sleep soon. You don't get this kind of feeling in light contact sparring, or wrestling.

When you have just barely dodged a full power punch next to your head, the only thing in your mind is trying to knock your opponent down ASAP so you will be safe afterward.

Are you a bad guy? No! You just want to survive.


----------



## dvcochran (Jan 5, 2021)

Steve said:


> Is it though?   I mean this as a serious question.  I have no desire to "destroy" anyone, and my experience has never led me to believe that showing mercy is a lethal mistake.  It seems like it might also put you in peril of being on the wrong side of the law.


Your personal experience may not have fleshed this out but there are countless stories of similar experiences. Where someone let there foot off and it came back to bite them. 
Definitely a decision that needs to be made ahead of time somewhat. It has a ton to do with the persons experience and confidence.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jan 5, 2021)

Ivan said:


> I think it's more about the mentality it instills in you. For example, Mexican Style Boxing is designed to destroy your opponent. In contrast, Taekwondo only lets you concentrate on landing the first hit since most sparring is point-based.


I don't know what Mexican Style Boxing is.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jan 5, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I don't know what Mexican Style Boxing is.





Ivan said:


> Many of these styles are based on cultural differences e.g. Mexican is pure "machismo" (chauvinism) in terms that as a man you should be facing your opponent head-on, not "running" (dodging).


  I've never referred to this as "Mexican Style Boxing."  This was always "Machismo" to me because all of Latin America is like that.  Mexican boxers were just closer to the U.S. border and close to the Boxing world when it was on top.

The "Machismo" culture doesn't care if they destroy you or not.  Their main goal is to show how tough they are and they do it either by taking a lot of punches or pounding someone.   A guy can be Machismo even if he loses and gets his face pounded.  If he looses but doesn't get K.O. then he would be considered as "Machismo".

Most martial arts don't care about being Machismo.  Most martial arts are all about being "cruel in battle."  Arm breaks, leg breaks, finger breaks, knife fighting etc.  are all acceptable  This is why I don't like how some people train martial arts and try to be like a peaceful monk.  It's the opposite of what Martial Art applications strive for.


----------



## _Simon_ (Jan 6, 2021)

MetalBoar said:


> Hey Gerry, I've been on this forum long enough to know that Jobo can be abrasive in his posts and frequently declines to do anything to elaborate or sell others on his ideas, but I agree with his views on fitness far more often than I disagree. I can say from personal experience training myself and a lot of other people that 5 minutes of high intensity work 2x/week is sufficient time to make huge improvements to fitness and tremendous gains in strength, though my primary workouts are more like 7 minutes 1x/week. I don't currently have the experience to feel confident training people at that level of intensity without more equipment than the usual martial arts studio has space for but I have no doubt that others can do it.
> 
> I think there are (at least) 2 primary roadblocks to clear communication around this topic:
> 
> ...


Yep agreed. I do get annoyed when someone says they've got a "wicked 30 or 60 minute Tabata workout for you". No. Just no! If you are doing 30 minutes of Tabata protocol you are not doing it right at all XD. 4 minutes of work is..... brutal. I did these (in sprint form) when training for a grading and it felt like absolute death, could only manage it once a week I think!


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jan 6, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Help the
> 
> - weak to fight against the strong,
> - good to fight against the evil,
> ...


Yeah, but that's not what you framed in that post. You created a deliberate strawman that some places teach "always give in" while others teach to fight back to protect.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jan 6, 2021)

jobo said:


> thats the program,  i didnt write it, a conditioning coach did, if your doing max effort you can only do a few, thats biology


I'm guessing you've picked up a tiny portion of someone's training program.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jan 6, 2021)

jobo said:


> here try this and tell ne its not enough


Um, that's a workout for a specific muscle group. Even says so in the title.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jan 6, 2021)

jobo said:


> no thats a holiday,  im not aware there is a world record for holidays?


Man, I'd love to try to break that record, whatever it is.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jan 6, 2021)

jobo said:


> get a high desk so you can stand


They also make devices you can put on the desk that elevate the monitor and keyboard/mouse, so you can switch back and forth pretty easily.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jan 6, 2021)

MetalBoar said:


> I've never been flexible and that was true when I was 23 and waiting tables and walking all night for a living. When I started working in IT in my late 20's it got so much harder.


Same for me. Even when I was training 20+ hours a week, my lower body wasn't very flexible.


----------



## jobo (Jan 6, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Um, that's a workout for a specific muscle group. Even says so in the title.


yes i know, then you hit other muscle groups a different day, its a pushibg exercis3 , ive move my hand postion slightly to take some off the tri and move it to the shoukders, but it works most muscles in your body to some extent, even you biceps

have you tried it yet and tell me 6 mins isnt enough


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jan 6, 2021)

MetalBoar said:


> Hey Gerry, I've been on this forum long enough to know that Jobo can be abrasive in his posts and frequently declines to do anything to elaborate or sell others on his ideas, but I agree with his views on fitness far more often than I disagree. I can say from personal experience training myself and a lot of other people that 5 minutes of high intensity work 2x/week is sufficient time to make huge improvements to fitness and tremendous gains in strength, though my primary workouts are more like 7 minutes 1x/week. I don't currently have the experience to feel confident training people at that level of intensity without more equipment than the usual martial arts studio has space for but I have no doubt that others can do it.
> 
> I think there are (at least) 2 primary roadblocks to clear communication around this topic:
> 
> ...


Perhaps with the right equipment. I have some workouts that don't take much more than 5 minutes that do a good job (I still doubt twice a week for just 5 minutes is sufficient), but they all need something. Kettlebells, pull-up bars, ropes attached to fixed points, or some such. None of that is feasible in a group setting at a dojo without spending a lot of money or stretching the time out by having folks share equipment/stations. Remember that's where this all started.

If someone is sedentary, a couple of short workouts a week will make a big improvement. But not the kind that was suggested in his earlier post. Getting someone into some kind of fighting shape takes time. Trying to do it within the warmup period of a class they attend twice a week won't get most people there, and those few it would work for (who are already fit and need to step it up) will take a long time to get there. Traininng fitness outside of class is the fix, but isn't within the instructor's control.

Having time to get some specific fitness and strength training in is part of the reason I haven't followed the trend of shortening classes to 1 hour. That seems to be where a lot of folks have trimmed the classes.


----------



## jobo (Jan 6, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Perhaps with the right equipment. I have some workouts that don't take much more than 5 minutes that do a good job (I still doubt twice a week for just 5 minutes is sufficient), but they all need something. Kettlebells, pull-up bars, ropes attached to fixed points, or some such. None of that is feasible in a group setting at a dojo without spending a lot of money or stretching the time out by having folks share equipment/stations. Remember that's where this all started.
> 
> If someone is sedentary, a couple of short workouts a week will make a big improvement. But not the kind that was suggested in his earlier post. Getting someone into some kind of fighting shape takes time. Trying to do it within the warmup period of a class they attend twice a week won't get most people there, and those few it would work for (who are already fit and need to step it up) will take a long time to get there. Traininng fitness outside of class is the fix, but isn't within the instructor's control.
> 
> Having time to get some specific fitness and strength training in is part of the reason I haven't followed the trend of shortening classes to 1 hour. That seems to be where a lot of folks have trimmed the classes.


no you really dont need equipment, im not saying it isnt convienient, but not at all a requirment,


----------



## jobo (Jan 6, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Perhaps with the right equipment. I have some workouts that don't take much more than 5 minutes that do a good job (I still doubt twice a week for just 5 minutes is sufficient), but they all need something. Kettlebells, pull-up bars, ropes attached to fixed points, or some such. None of that is feasible in a group setting at a dojo without spending a lot of money or stretching the time out by having folks share equipment/stations. Remember that's where this all started.
> 
> If someone is sedentary, a couple of short workouts a week will make a big improvement. But not the kind that was suggested in his earlier post. Getting someone into some kind of fighting shape takes time. Trying to do it within the warmup period of a class they attend twice a week won't get most people there, and those few it would work for (who are already fit and need to step it up) will take a long time to get there. Traininng fitness outside of class is the fix, but isn't within the instructor's control.
> 
> Having time to get some specific fitness and strength training in is part of the reason I haven't followed the trend of shortening classes to 1 hour. That seems to be where a lot of folks have trimmed the classes.


and its not a warm up exercise its a muscle screaming when youve finished exercise, if you take say your unfit guy, work him for 5 mins and progesovly turn the intensity up over a few months he will continue to get fitter and fitter for 5 mins duration, with out any reachable upper limit


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jan 6, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> What?!?!?  there's a funny Jobo too?


Always has been. I like him even more than serious jobo.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jan 6, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Most people like to take fitness training before MA training. I like to decide which MA ability that I want to develop first. I then find a equipment training that can help me.
> 
> I want to develop strong grip -> I then find a equipment training that can help me.
> 
> ...


My experience has been that powerful grips can be developed by just doing a lot of grappling.


----------



## jobo (Jan 6, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> My experience has been that powerful grips can be developed by just doing a lot of grappling.


or by pull ups, or by trying to rip a towl in half 

or perhaps best doing pull up off a towl


----------



## stanly stud (Jan 6, 2021)

this is a luxury machine @ the start





most hang a judo Gi over a pull up bar grip it & chin. about 2:50


----------



## jobo (Jan 6, 2021)

_Simon_ said:


> Yep agreed. I do get annoyed when someone says they've got a "wicked 30 or 60 minute Tabata workout for you". No. Just no! If you are doing 30 minutes of Tabata protocol you are not doing it right at all XD. 4 minutes of work is..... brutal. I did these (in sprint form) when training for a grading and it felt like absolute death, could only manage it once a week I think!


people it seems have a problem accepting that shorter high intensity is better( for somethings) and also have a problem putting in the amount of effort required to actually make it high intensity

between the two, they alter the exercise to fit there preconception and as they are doing 30 m instead of three turn down the intensity considerably, to totally  inadequate

and then say," that didnt work" well no, youve been doing something else entirely, of course it didnt work


----------



## stanly stud (Jan 6, 2021)

jobo said:


> people it seems have a problem accepting that shorter high intensity is better( for somethings) and also have a problem putting in the amount of effort required to actually make it high intensity
> 
> between the two, they alter the exercise to fit there preconception and as they are doing 30 m instead of three turn down the intensity considerably, to totally  inadequate
> 
> and then say," that didnt work" well no, youve been doing something else entirely, of course it didnt work


so all other training other than 5-10 mins(or even 4mins) 1x a week is not so efficient or as productive... for athletes or martial arts? 
If this was the case why are athletes not solely relying on this training?


----------



## stanly stud (Jan 6, 2021)

or could it be a case of HIT or HIIT training is just _another tool in the Box?_
just one method of many used in a good _all round_ training programme?


----------



## jobo (Jan 6, 2021)

stanly stud said:


> so all other training other than 5-10 mins(or even 4mins) 1x a week is not so efficient or as productive... for athletes or martial arts?
> If this was the case why are athletes not solely relying on this training?


well no, that really not what i said, in fact i wrote you a post on the topic one thread or another that intensity duration need to be tied to the performance your trying to develop

there are possibly some, a few ,where what you are doing is by far the best type of work out, there are also time constaints on people, like in this example where you only have a few mins out of an hour class so you have to make the best use out of it

my traing is devepoled towards performance rather than asthetics, in this particular instance the ability to go flat out for around the 5 min mark, which requires you to go flat out for about 5 mins,  if your doing 10 mins, your not flat out ,if your doing thirty mins your not trying at all hard, if you havibg rest pauses every min ir so, then that isnt the training which i want, which just to be clear is the ability to go flat out for 5 mins with out rest pauses, as that tends to be what fights and quite a few other emergency situations require


----------



## stanly stud (Jan 6, 2021)

jobo said:


> duration need to be tied to the performance your trying to develop


was that not the _other guy? _who spoke about training for a short fight 60 secs to 120 secs? saying his short 5-10 mins were sufficient for these goals.



jobo said:


> my traing is devepoled towards performance rather than asthetics


performance for what goal? the above one?


----------



## jobo (Jan 6, 2021)

stanly stud said:


> was that not the _other guy? _who spoke about training for a short fight 60 secs to 120 secs? saying his short 5-10 mins were sufficient for these goals.
> 
> 
> performance for what goal? the above one?


well yes, but not exclusivly, i may need to climb on a outhouse jump to a drain pipe shin to the window,climb in and recue some children by carrying them out,, from a fire it not that likely but if required im ready, no point trainibg for a 60 break ever min, when the house is on fire

no it was me when i carefully and simplisticaly told you that trainibg for a 5 hour bike ride takes 5 hours traing


----------



## stanly stud (Jan 6, 2021)

jobo said:


> well yes, but not exclusivly, i may need to climb on a outhouse jump to a drain pipe shin to the window,climb in and recue you children, from a fire it not that likely but if required im ready


so you are saying the _other guy _was your gimmick account _and _you do not specifically train for any martial arts?.


----------



## jobo (Jan 6, 2021)

stanly stud said:


> so you are saying the _other guy _was your gimmick account _and _you do not specifically train for any martial arts?.


are just not reading thing or missreading things on purpose

im training for life, to enjoy it with activerties and to be able to protect it, mine or someone elses

fighting is only one small part of that, i train karate for skill development, and my other training increases my karate a
ability greatly, and if i cant fight them i possibly  out sprint them, it all comes together as one package


----------



## stanly stud (Jan 6, 2021)

jobo said:


> fighting is only one small part of that, i train karate for skill development, and my other training increases my karate a
> ability greatly,


so we are not really talking about 5 minutes 1x a week then are we?
how does your 5 minutes 1x a week help your ability in Karate? Given that you are training Karate for skill development?


----------



## jobo (Jan 6, 2021)

stanly stud said:


> so we are not really talking about 5 minutes 1x a week then are we?
> how does your 5 minutes 1x a week help your ability in Karate? Given that you are training Karate for skill development?


it jumps aroubd with what im working on at that moment, remember i train for performance.

once a week is more than sufficient to make great improvement, two or three is possibly better, at gettibg you there sooner, but if youve really out everythibg into it, the recovery time can be quite long

how does it help my karate? your not follow this are you, im dumbing it down as much as possible, because im super fit for 5 mins and no one else there is, in fact fibd anyone who is is quite difficult as they use the wrong training for ir


----------



## stanly stud (Jan 6, 2021)

jobo said:


> im dumbing it down as much as possible, because im super fit for 5 mins



_ah ok... so i guess we do not need  targeted training with weights. full body moves. you said today no weights are needed.. so how can you generate this power as we see in this full body sumo deadlift???




_


----------



## jobo (Jan 6, 2021)

stanly stud said:


> _ah ok... so i guess we do not need  targeted training with weights. full body moves. you said today no weights are needed.. so how can you generate this power as we see in this full body sumo deadlift???
> 
> 
> 
> ...


no you dont need weights, other than the weight of your own body and some idea of how a lever works


----------



## stanly stud (Jan 6, 2021)

jobo said:


> no you dont need weights, other than the weight of your own body and some idea of how a lever works



OK can you demonstrate an exercise that equals the intensity of a heavy sumo deadlift.


----------



## jobo (Jan 6, 2021)

stanly stud said:


> OK can you demonstrate an exercise that equals the intensity of a heavy sumo deadlift.



thats silly how heavy is heavy, what he is lifting is very very heavy, most peopke on earth's  cant lift that, with out steriod.

my training  for ab out the thousanth time is about max persormance over 5 mins,, if he can lift that non stop for 5 minetes then we might be able to compare

i can usibg principals of leverage i learnt at 9,increase the effective weight of my body at leat three times, thats 600 pounds, is that heavy enough to be heavy


----------



## stanly stud (Jan 6, 2021)

jobo said:


> thats silly how heavy is heavy, what he is lifting is very very heavy, most peopke on earth's cant lift that, with out steriod.


no you specifically said you can train using body leverage(simple physics). which i understand to an extent but you can´t compare bodyweight with sumo deads can you?

also the sumo deadlift is a lift where anyone can work up to a large weight. So we will address your body physics. Look at the wide stance ,thus  shorter range of motion. You clearly have never lifted weights nor do you understand it. 
I _specifically _picked this type of deadlift to give you a chance..a branch to reach. However you have proved me correct.


----------



## stanly stud (Jan 6, 2021)

This explains why ...nothing to do with steroids. 
How to Sumo Deadlift | Barbell Logic (barbell-logic.com)


----------



## jobo (Jan 6, 2021)

stanly stud said:


> no you specifically said you can train using body leverage(simple physics). which i understand to an extent but you can´t compare bodyweight with sumo deads can you?
> 
> also the sumo deadlift is a lift where anyone can work up to a large weight. So we will address your body physics. Look at the wide stance ,thus  shorter range of motion. You clearly have never lifted weights nor do you understand it.
> I _specifically _picked this type of deadlift to give you a chance..a branch to reach. However you have proved me correct.


well yrs you can, that then depends on how much leverage you can get and how heavy you are, i can do a,similar( though not the same) movement , that works quads and and and lower back and arms,that hits circa 600lbs , and anyone can work up by changing the lever, i dont geberaly do that one now, as ive got no use for lifting 600lbs

now weight may be more convenient,  but they are by no means essential to fitness or strengh training,


----------



## stanly stud (Jan 6, 2021)

jobo said:


> well yrs you can, that then depends on how much leverage you can get and how heavy you are, i can do a,similar( though not the same) movement , that works quads and atm and lower back,that hits circa 600lbs , and anyone can work up by changing the lever
> 
> now weight may be more convenient,  but they are by no means essential to fitness or strengh training,


show us.
no more blah..blah..talk show us


----------



## jobo (Jan 6, 2021)

stanly stud said:


> show us.


are you starting this again, youve not shown us your standard of lifting and even if you do, its still no to the stalker


----------



## stanly stud (Jan 6, 2021)

jobo said:


> are you starting this again, youve not shown us your standard of lifting and even if you do, its still no to the stalker


No i have a valid arguement here..

If you do not understand a Sumo Deadlift & it´s physics how can you tell me you understand the Biomechanics of bodyweight exercises which can reproduce a 600LB Sumo Dead? LMAO !!


----------



## jobo (Jan 6, 2021)

stanly stud said:


> No i have a valid arguement here..
> 
> If you do not understand a Sumo Deadlift & it´s physics how can you tell me you understand the Biomechanics of bodyweight exercises which can reproduce a 600LB Sumo Dead? LMAO !!


i do inderstand dead lifts, its you thats failing to understand simple leverage, your point was you cant create a heavy load doing body weight and you certainly can,


----------



## stanly stud (Jan 6, 2021)

jobo said:


> i do inderstand dead lifts, its you thats failing to understand simpke le


OK.. then how can you tell me you can use bodyweight & have 600LBs resistance? how can you measure this?


----------



## jobo (Jan 6, 2021)

stanly stud said:


> OK.. then how can you tell me you can use bodyweight & have 600LBs resistance? how can you measure this?


you dont measure it,( though you could) you calculate it using maths, did you skip the whole of 8th grade ?

as it is the actual weight doesnt matter only that you lifting at 90% of ORM , considerable,  infact infinitly large weight are possible, if you could lay your hands on an infinitly long lever


----------



## stanly stud (Jan 6, 2021)

jobo said:


> *you dont measure it*,( though you could) you calculate it using maths, did you skip the whole of 8th grade ?
> 
> as it is *the actual weight doesnt matter* only that you lifting *at 90% of ORM *, considerable, * infact infinitly l*arge weight are possible, if you could lay your hands on an infinitly long lever


Your answers are the only thing that is _infinity  long & utter BS. 
I thought you lifted 100% & not 90% ?_

listen you put up a video of this 600LB lift or please shut up !


----------



## jobo (Jan 6, 2021)

stanly stud said:


> Your answers are the only thing that is _infinity  long & utter BS.
> I thought you lifted 100% & not 90% ?_
> 
> listen you put up a video of this 600LB lift or please shut up !


im not doing either of those just coz you cant grasp elimentary concepts, like leverage, 

we had,another eeer  challenged guy who couldnt get leverage, i wasted three days trying to get him to understand a push up was a lever, im not doing that again,


----------



## stanly stud (Jan 6, 2021)

jobo said:


> im not doing either of those just coz you cant grasp elimentary concepts, like leverage,
> 
> we had,another eeer  challenged guy who couldnt get leverage, i wasted three days trying to get him to understand a push up was a lever, im not doing that again,


Mate you are talking utter BS. I am sitting here with a mate laughing like love at you. I feel honestly sorry for you.


----------



## stanly stud (Jan 6, 2021)

Look how about if i post a picture of my physique & you do the same? 
a picture holding an upside down tea cup. 
we will see how you look. Also i will post a heavy lift any one you choose if you can do the same. back it up.


----------



## jobo (Jan 6, 2021)

stanly stud said:


> Look how about if i post a picture of my physique & you do the same?
> a picture holding an upside down tea cup.
> we will see how you look. Also i will post a heavy lift any one you choose if you can do the same. back it up.


your determind to see me in a my gym kit

no,

ive no great intrest in my own muscle size, ive not all in yours,

ive tried to tell you nicely, but this is getting really creepy


----------



## _Simon_ (Jan 7, 2021)

Agreed, it's gotten really creepy.. I suggest we move on.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jan 7, 2021)

Steve said:


> Can destroying one's opponent be considered self defense?  Seems like the person whom you're trying to destroy is the one doing the defending.
> 
> I've always thought it hilarious that some styles focus on curb stomping, crushing trachea and all manner of ways to rip off gonads or pluck out eyeballs.  That has never seemed much like self defense to me.
> 
> I'm also curious to hear more about TKD guys who are into this.  Around here, at least, it's usually the ninja and the karateka who are into murder as a means of self defense.


I think every place that trains with self-defense in mind at least touches on this. If the situation is dire, you'd want to be able to do a lot of damage quickly. Mind you, not all are going to talk about how to rip out trachea (never been quite sure that's possible, though crushing it would), and most places it's going to be exercises designed to balance the tameness of sparring. There are some good arguments made about using this, related to mindset and mental preparation, though I'm not sure how effective it is if it's done as simulation (not actually putting intent into the response), which is obviously how most approach it.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jan 7, 2021)

jobo said:


> yes i know, then you hit other muscle groups a different day, its a pushibg exercis3 , ive move my hand postion slightly to take some off the tri and move it to the shoukders, but it works most muscles in your body to some extent, even you biceps
> 
> have you tried it yet and tell me 6 mins isnt enough


I never said you couldn't exercise a muscle group in 6 minutes. You're already changing your story.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jan 7, 2021)

jobo said:


> or by pull ups, or by trying to rip a towl in half
> 
> or perhaps best doing pull up off a towl


Or even with a newspaper. Tiger Woods used to (don't know if he still does) lay a newspaper flat and crumple each page with one hand on the table. I tried it, and it's a better exercise than I'd have thought.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jan 7, 2021)

jobo said:


> im not doing either of those just coz you cant grasp elimentary concepts, like leverage,
> 
> we had,another eeer  challenged guy who couldnt get leverage, i wasted three days trying to get him to understand a push up was a lever, im not doing that again,


Serious question - what's the leverage-utilizing exercise you're picturing? I can't figure out how (without some complicated contraption) you're levering against your own bodyweight for that.


----------



## jobo (Jan 7, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> I never said you couldn't exercise a muscle group in 6 minutes. You're already changing your story.


no, you  were sayibg you couldnt get any benifit to short burst exercise,

thise a push muscles, it also hits most of the of pull muscles, which are beibg used to stabilise your movements and most of the skelital mucles, on its own its close to a full body exercise, them of course a few days later you do the same with pull muscles, which hit the push muscles that are stabilising,  and the skelital muscles, making that al so a full body exercise it also makes your heart go like bilkio, so,, cardio
.with exercises  that only need repeating every 7 to 10 days, there plenty of scope for hitting every thing on a rolling program

or you can mix them up and do three mins of each, its rhe concept im demonstrating,  you need to do a bit of thibgibg as well

have you actually tried it, coz till you have its hard to describe how hard it actually is on your whole system

when i started doing it, i couldnt stop shaking for hours afterward, such was the overload of my cns


----------



## dvcochran (Jan 7, 2021)

Steve said:


> Can destroying one's opponent be considered self defense?  Seems like the person whom you're trying to destroy is the one doing the defending.
> 
> I've always thought it hilarious that some styles focus on curb stomping, crushing trachea and all manner of ways to rip off gonads or pluck out eyeballs.  That has never seemed much like self defense to me.
> 
> I'm also curious to hear more about TKD guys who are into this.  Around here, at least, it's usually the ninja and the karateka who are into murder as a means of self defense.


I never pegged you for a Pollyanna with your never ending sarcasm, extremist and fatalistic views on just about everything. 

Citing theatrics from a Patrick Swayze movie as a self defense move speaks loudly about your credibility as a source of intelligent information. It is comments like these that keep things mucked up for MA in general, especially impressionable new and young students. 

Questions: 
How do you measure the level of a threat in real time? 
When do you decide higher and possibly extreme measures are required? 
How do you balance this with things like physicality, stature, mentality?
Do you view all self defense as reactionary? 
If even allowed, do survey the situation and make mental decisions based on this information or just 'wait and see what happens'. 

How do you teach people to deal with a threat precursor and beyond? 

As usual you are just popping shots, trying to invoke a reaction.


----------



## jobo (Jan 7, 2021)

mad dog said:


> *F-ck off you queer old C-nt. you talk utter sh-te on here. listen you old fool i can come on here any time i want & i will expose you for the fraud you are.*


my bunny boiler radar was right


----------



## skribs (Jan 7, 2021)

Before I can answer the original question, a few questions must be asked:

Risk assessment of what "self-defense" is.
Is the art being assessed the sole provider of self-defense in your regimen?
"What is self-defense" is something that has been asked a lot here.  It could range from "an untrained unathletic person throwing a single haymaker" to any of the following:

Multiple coordinated opponents
An olympian athlete
Weapons
A skilled fighter with multiple black belts and professional fights in multiple systems
Or it could be multiple olympian athletes who are all 30-0 in professional fights, all armed with various weapons.  Of course, I personally believe that a *reasonable* assumption is that the *majority* of the fights you're going to get into are going to be against untrained or moderately trained opponents with more athleticism than experience.  And while I do think it's realistic for multiple attackers or weapons to be involved, you also need to have such a higher skill ceiling against them that I think it's unreasonable to train beginner or intermediate students for those situations (if you want to cover them at all).

This brings up further questions.  Do you need to be able to defend punches like a boxer?  Or just defend against a layman?  Do you need both striking and grappling, or are you confident enough in one area that you feel you can keep the fight where you want?  A wrestler or BJJ fighter may feel confident enough they can close in and grab against any striker.  All it takes is one grab and the striker is done.  On the other hand, a striker may feel that he can use his footwork to keep any grapplers at bay...maybe not professional-level grapplers, but he's not expecting to go against that.  Or you may feel the need to be proficient in both arenas.

Then there's the question of whether your training exists in a vacuum.  Maybe you cross-train.  Maybe you have prior experience.  You might think Krav Maga suffers from a lack of competition, but if you already have competitive experience, it can give you a different perspective on self-defense situations (something I feel sport arts lack).  You may think sport arts suffer from that lack of perspective, but they can give you a different perspective on the effectiveness of your techniques than an art with less competition and/or sparring.  Boxing has one of the narrowest scopes of any martial art.  If you want to be competent on the ground and standing up, then boxing by itself is a bad choice.  But, boxing mixed with another art is a great choice.

Then there are your goals.  If you want to be a professional boxer, then time training Krav Maga or BJJ will potentially distract you from that goal.  Say you have 20 hours a week to dedicate to training.  That could be 10 hours of fitness training and 10 hours of boxing training.  If you mix in a couple hours of wrestling, that's 10% of your weekly training budget going towards something other than boxing.

It's a very personal decision.  What are your goals and fears?  How do you prioritize them?  What is your time budget?  How effective do you need your countermeasures to be against those fears?  I mean, the ideal training regimen is that you take half a dozen different martial arts and do a full-body workout (including stretching and cardio) every day.  Ain't nobody got time for that.


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## dvcochran (Jan 7, 2021)

skribs said:


> Before I can answer the original question, a few questions must be asked:
> 
> Risk assessment of what "self-defense" is.
> Is the art being assessed the sole provider of self-defense in your regimen?
> ...


Great to hear from you Skribs.


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## jobo (Jan 7, 2021)

skribs said:


> Before I can answer the original question, a few questions must be asked:
> 
> Risk assessment of what "self-defense" is.
> Is the art being assessed the sole provider of self-defense in your regimen?
> ...


well yes,

youve got to run with the likely and hope it holds up in the  unlikely,

id put half a dozon Olympic  weight lifters, attacking me in the extremly unlikely class.

and over weight unfit drunks, in the extremly likey class

somewhere in between is the sweet spot


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## Steve (Jan 7, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> I think every place that trains with self-defense in mind at least touches on this. If the situation is dire, you'd want to be able to do a lot of damage quickly. Mind you, not all are going to talk about how to rip out trachea (never been quite sure that's possible, though crushing it would), and most places it's going to be exercises designed to balance the tameness of sparring. There are some good arguments made about using this, related to mindset and mental preparation, though I'm not sure how effective it is if it's done as simulation (not actually putting intent into the response), which is obviously how most approach it.


Regarding ripping out trachea was intended to be somewhat tongue in cheek reference to Road House.  The idea being that a lot of self defense techniques that we can easily see all over the internet end in gruesome, violent death of the bad guy.  The need for that kind of technique is, I think, exceedingly unlikely.  Statistically, even if someone is in a high risk category, actively engaging in high risk behaviors, they are at relatively low risk for being the victim of a violent crime.  And the percentage of violent crimes that are actually intended to be lethal is even less likely.  Simply put, few people are actually victims of violent crimes.  And even violent criminals don't just indiscriminately murder everyone they encounter.  So, the idea that every self defense situation would end in the violent death of the bad guy is unrealistic and unhelpful.


----------



## jobo (Jan 7, 2021)

Steve said:


> Regarding ripping out trachea was intended to be somewhat tongue in cheek reference to Road House.  The idea being that a lot of self defense techniques that we can easily see all over the internet end in gruesome, violent death of the bad guy.  The need for that kind of technique is, I think, exceedingly unlikely.  Statistically, even if someone is in a high risk category, actively engaging in high risk behaviors, they are at relatively low risk for being the victim of a violent crime.  And the percentage of violent crimes that are actually intended to be lethal is even less likely.  Simply put, few people are actually victims of violent crimes.  And even violent criminals don't just indiscriminately murder everyone they encounter.  So, the idea that every self defense situation would end in the violent death of the bad guy is unrealistic and unhelpful.


well maybe, killing them is best avoided if possible, 

but why are they attacking you? and what will happen to you if you loose, a good kicking, your nose bitten off,  , he will shake your hand and say " well played, you put up a good fight"

youve got to be aware that those who randomly attack people are perhaps not psychologically stable in the first place, relying  on their good will not to cause you unnecessary suffering, may be unwise


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## Steve (Jan 7, 2021)

jobo said:


> well maybe, killing them is best avoided if possible,
> 
> but why are they attacking you? and what will happen to you if you loose, a good kicking, your nose bitten off,  , he will shake your hand and say " well played, you put up a good fight"
> 
> youve got to be aware that those who randomly attack people are perhaps not psychologically stable in the first place, relying  on their good will not to cause you unnecessary suffering, may be unwise


I think that's the idea...  why are they attacking you?  This idea that people are randomly attacking other people is way overblown.  Generally, people who are encountering violence can anticipate the nature of the violence they are likely to encounter.  A college coed, for example, can anticipate that she may be the victim of sexual assault and take steps to mitigate that violence. But would she be justified in ripping out the trachea of the bad guy?  Is that the goal?

Or let's look at cops.  Cops shouldn't generally be killing folks.  And when they do, how often do they use the hyper violent techniques that are often taught in self defense classes?  Generally, when a cop kills someone it's with a gun.

Point isn't to undercut the seriousness of violent crime.  It's simply to point out that brutally, ruthlessly murdering a bad guy is not reasonable. And if you're in a profession or field where you may actually need to ruthlessly kill folks (e.g., cop, soldier, mercenary, gang member, professional hit man), that to me isn't self defense.  It's professional violence, in the same way that when an MMA fighter steps into the ring, what they he/she is doing isn't self defense.  And in these violent professions, the rules of engagement are unique to the role.

Edit:  Just to add, I'm not saying folks shouldn't train to be prepared.  I'm just saying that actual risk of random murder is exceedingly low.  Like, dying from falling out of bed low, or dying from constipation low.  

And any preparation should be contextual.  A surprising number of people are killed by agricultural machinery, so one would expect that people who work around agricultural machinery would want to take steps to mitigate those risks.  But these steps wouldn't be all that helpful to folks who seldom or never encounter that machinery.  It's specific.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 7, 2021)

jobo said:


> well maybe, killing them is best avoided if possible,
> 
> but why are they attacking you? and what will happen to you if you loose, a good kicking, your nose bitten off,  , he will shake your hand and say " well played, you put up a good fight"
> 
> youve got to be aware that those who randomly attack people are perhaps not psychologically stable in the first place, relying  on their good will not to cause you unnecessary suffering, may be unwise



If I'm attacked,  I'm first focused on ending the attack as soon as possible. If talking is the fastest way out then I'm doing that,  if screaming is the fastest way out, then I'm doing that.   If I have to be cruel and brutal, then that's what I must do?

The what if questions don't come to mind until I have ensured my safety.  Fighting is brutal and sometimes the people have to do brutal and cruel things to defend themselves.   I think there's a lot of people who mentally and emotionally haven't accepted this reality yet.


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## jobo (Jan 7, 2021)

Steve said:


> I think that's the idea...  why are they attacking you?  This idea that people are randomly attacking other people is way overblown.  Generally, people who are encountering violence can anticipate the nature of the violence they are likely to encounter.  A college coed, for example, can anticipate that she may be the victim of sexual assault and take steps to mitigate that violence. But would she be justified in ripping out the trachea of the bad guy?  Is that the goal?
> 
> Or let's look at cops.  Cops shouldn't generally be killing folks.  And when they do, how often do they use the hyper violent techniques that are often taught in self defense classes?  Generally, when a cop kills someone it's with a gun.
> 
> Point isn't to undercut the seriousness of violent crime.  It's simply to point out that brutally, ruthlessly murdering a bad guy is not reasonable. And if you're in a profession or field where you may actually need to ruthlessly kill folks (e.g., cop, soldier, mercenary, gang member, professional hit man), that to me isn't self defense.  It's professional violence, in the same way that when an MMA fighter steps into the ring, what they he/she is doing isn't self defense.  And in these violent professions, the rules of engagement are unique to the role.


im not at a big on murdering people or indeed justifiable homicides,  it mess up your life no end, so no, .

you got cross with me, when i pointed out the chance of any one of us dieing from covid was extremly small, bot your doing the same with violent crime,  with no sence of irony ,


if your attacked which is a throw of the dice wrong place wrong time thing , 2 mins later it very well may not have happened at all or certainly not to you,

then you need to win, or you run the chance of being badly hurt, trying to work out the probability  of you being attacked is exceedingly low whilst you are being attacked is a bit of a waste of time  its happening, now

now all thibgs being equal you probebly wont get attacked if you minding your own business,  then all youve wasted is a vit of time

i did get attacked a couple or so years ago, middle of nowhere not a care the world, ATTACKED, after a minor discusion about dog control, by someone much younger and much bigger, so it happens

telling me its unlikely  now isnt helpful, my karate was


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## Steve (Jan 7, 2021)

jobo said:


> im not at a big on murdering people or indeed justifiable homicides,  it mess up your life no end, so no, .
> 
> you got cross with me, when i pointed out the chance of any one of us dieing from covid was extremly small, bot your doing the same with violent crime,  with no sence of irony ,
> 
> ...


I'm not cross.  So, you got attacked. The point isn't how you irritated someone so much that they attacked you.  That's not surprising at all.  It's whether you would be justified in killing that guy.  Would learning techniques that culminate in stomping the head, crushing the trachea, etc, be helpful to you at all?  I don't think so.  In fact, I think some training on communication and interpersonal skills would be much more helpful to you, if you were receptive, so that you have the skills needed to avoid being attacked... or at least not being surprised when you are.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 7, 2021)

Steve said:


> why are they attacking you?


It can be as simple as a personal challenge.


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## Steve (Jan 7, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> If I'm attacked,  I'm first focused on ending the attack as soon as possible. If talking is the fastest way out then I'm doing that,  if screaming is the fastest way out, then I'm doing that.   If I have to be cruel and brutal, then that's what I must do?
> 
> The what if questions don't come to mind until I have ensured my safety.  Fighting is brutal and sometimes the people have to do brutal and cruel things to defend themselves.   I think there's a lot of people who mentally and emotionally haven't accepted this reality yet.


You can't anticipate everything.  Being reasonably prepared for what may happen is good sense.  Having an earthquake kit in Seattle is a good idea, because we get them.  Not often, but they do occur.  Being prepared for tornadoes in North Texas is a good idea.  I was in my Grandma's house in Henrietta, TX when several tornadoes took out half of Wichita Falls... it happens, and it makes sense to be prepared.  But in Seattle, I don't worry about Tornadoes.  I could spend money and time and energy being prepared for those tornadoes, but there's really no point in doing so.

That's what I'm getting at.  Many self defense programs seem to undervalue context and place undue emphasis on techniques that actually detract from skills that are actually helpful.


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## Steve (Jan 7, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It can be as simple as a personal challenge.


That doesn't sound random to me, or common.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 7, 2021)

Steve said:


> That doesn't sound random to me, or common.


If some stranger wants to test your punching power, ask you to punch him as hard as you can in front of public, what will you do?

What will you do when you have accepted a personal challenge? If you take easy on your opponent, next day there will be many other challengers. If you give your opponent a hard time, people may leave you along after that.

So when you throw that punch, do you want to hurt your opponent, or not?

Your bad reputation may be the only way that you can live peacefully through your old age.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 7, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If some stranger wants to test your punching power, ask you to punch him as hard as you can in front of public, what will you do?
> 
> What will you do when you have accepted a personal challenge? If you take easy on your opponent, next day there will be many other challengers. If you give your opponent a hard time, people may leave you along after that.
> 
> So when you throw that punch, do you want to hurt your opponent, or not?


Why bother engaging with that person? It would be much easier to just walk away. Let everyone think you suck at martial arts, and no ones challenging you cause there's nothing to gain from it.


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## jobo (Jan 7, 2021)

Steve said:


> I'm not cross.  So, you got attacked. The point isn't how you irritated someone so much that they attacked you.  That's not surprising at all.  It's whether you would be justified in killing that guy.  Would learning techniques that culminate in stomping the head, crushing the trachea, etc, be helpful to you at all?  I don't think so.  In fact, I think some training on communication and interpersonal skills would be much more helpful to you, if you were receptive, so that you have the skills needed to avoid being attacked... or at least not being surprised when you are.


well you managed to turn that into a personal attack ×well played that man

the techniques that are usful are the ones you need to win, so all of them dependent on circumstances, or how much they have,annoyed you so far,  possibily of witness or cctv

personally i really wouldnt stamp on someones head unless the,situation is,dire indeed, crushing the wind pipe however is fair game and unlikely to kill them unless you keep going after they have past out, and they tend to give in before they pass out anyway, so it saves damage,all round,  its a kindness really


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 7, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Let everyone think you suck at martial arts, and no ones challenging you cause there's nothing to gain from it.


Not if you have a national champion title on you. Some people just want to gain reputation over night. Instead of going through tournament competition to earn his reputation in the right way, he may prefer the easy way, to challenge the national champion instead.

The issue is even the national champion may get sick and get old one day. In those personal challenges, to be kind to your opponent is to be cruel to yourself. To stop those non-stop challenges, your bad reputation may be your last line defense.

A: Dear sir! I want to challenge Mike Tyson tomorrow. If I can land a lucky punch on him, I will be famous next day.
B: Last person who challenged him had stayed in hospital for 3 months. I would reconsider it if I were you.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 7, 2021)

jobo said:


> no, you  were sayibg you couldnt get any benifit to short burst exercise,
> 
> thise a push muscles, it also hits most of the of pull muscles, which are beibg used to stabilise your movements and most of the skelital mucles, on its own its close to a full body exercise, them of course a few days later you do the same with pull muscles, which hit the push muscles that are stabilising,  and the skelital muscles, making that al so a full body exercise it also makes your heart go like bilkio, so,, cardio
> .with exercises  that only need repeating every 7 to 10 days, there plenty of scope for hitting every thing on a rolling program
> ...


In any case, it's not really relevant to the context at hand.


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## jobo (Jan 7, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> In any case, it's not really relevant to the context at hand.


of course its relivent its a close to full body exercise that can wrrck you in 5 mins and thus give exception fitness  beifits, thst you said couldnt be obtained in such  a short time

have your tried it yet,

i suspect not, as that may result in you having to admit your wrong


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 7, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Let everyone think you suck at martial arts, and no ones challenging you cause there's nothing to gain from it.


 I'm going to see if this works for me in Martial Talk. lol


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 7, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm going to see if this works for me in Martial Talk. lol


This may not work.

A: What do you think about my side kick in this video?
B: Bad, bad, very bad.
A: How many years of MA training have you had?
B: I have 3 months of MA training. I suck at MA.
A: What make you think that you are qualify to say my side kick is bad?

If people think you suck at MA, nobody will pay attention on your post.


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## jobo (Jan 7, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm going to see if this works for me in Martial Talk. lol


its a bit late for that, they have seen you with your " spear" they already know how good you are


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 7, 2021)

jobo said:


> its a bit late for that, they have seen you with your " spear" they already know how good you are


  All it takes is for me to teach myself TKD, show a video of me but not my face and a new profile picture.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 7, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Not if you have a national champion title on you. Some people just want to gain reputation over night. Instead of going through tournament competition to earn his reputation in the right way, he may prefer the easy way, to challenge the national champion instead.
> 
> The issue is even the national champion may get sick and get old one day. In those personal challenges, to be kind to your opponent is to be cruel to yourself. To stop those non-stop challenges, your bad reputation may be your last line defense.
> 
> ...


You still have to accept that challenge though. If you don't accept it, there's nothing they can do.


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## jobo (Jan 7, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> All it takes is for me to teach myself TKD, show a video of me but not my face and a new profile picture.


well it has your nose, so they may work it out


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## MetalBoar (Jan 7, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> In any case, it's not really relevant to the context at hand.


Hey there Gerry, I know you've said this to both Jobo and me at this point, but I'm not sure where you're coming from. I agree that what I do would be hard to teach in a group setting and so is of little use in a typical commercial martial arts class format but it sounds like Jobo's methods would be more accessible to a setting with minimal equipment and larger groups. Regardless, the original post asked...



JowGaWolf said:


> What makes a Martial Arts System Practical for Physical Self-Defense?



... and it sounds to me like you read this as, "What is a practical way to teach self defense in a commercial martial arts school?". If that were the question then strength training the way I do may not be relevant _as a part of in class training_, but that doesn't mean it might not be relevant to the original question.

If I were to answer this question, which I realize I haven't, I would say:

A martial arts system is practical for self defense if it teaches a small set of high value techniques (Kung Fu Wang would say door guarding techniques) that are suitable for addressing the threats that the student reasonably expects to encounter (a 19 year old female college student has different worries than a 50 year old male celebrity for instance). It should have drills of whatever sort are necessary to ingrain these techniques such that they are embedded in muscle memory and can be applied effectively against a fully resisting attacker of the appropriate threat profile.

If we're limiting ourselves to just answering the original question and not expanding upon it at all that's the extent of my answer. Other people have pointed out (correctly in my opinion) that this isn't the whole picture. If the student isn't fit enough to apply the techniques to the expected threat then they need to do some fitness training. Whether that is the responsibility of the system or not is another question.

If you feel that fitness has to be part of the in class curriculum of the system itself then I think that the kinds of fitness training Jobo is suggesting are a good candidate for that purpose. If you feel that fitness training must simply be a part of the student's training, but that it doesn't need to take part during group training, then the sort of training that I'm advocating is immanently practical for providing the necessary fitness component.

Am I missing something?

Cheers!

Michael


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## WaterGal (Jan 7, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If some stranger wants to test your punching power, ask you to punch him as hard as you can in front of public, what will you do?



You say "no, I'm not going to punch you", and walk away.

You could also say, "come to the gym/dojo with me for class tomorrow, and I'll show you".

But there's no reason to punch a stranger in the street, just because they asked you to punch them. Engaging them is just stupid.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 7, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If some stranger wants to test your punching power, ask you to punch him as hard as you can in front of public, what will you do?



I'll laugh, say "no thanks" and walk away.



> What will you do when you have accepted a personal challenge?



Why would I do that? This is 2021, not 1521.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 7, 2021)

jobo said:


> of course its relivent its a close to full body exercise that can wrrck you in 5 mins and thus give exception fitness  beifits, thst you said couldnt be obtained in such  a short time
> 
> have your tried it yet,
> 
> i suspect not, as that may result in you having to admit your wrong


It's not something a group of people can do in the middle of a dojo, so not relevant to the context.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 7, 2021)

MetalBoar said:


> Hey there Gerry, I know you've said this to both Jobo and me at this point, but I'm not sure where you're coming from. I agree that what I do would be hard to teach in a group setting and so is of little use in a typical commercial martial arts class format but it sounds like Jobo's methods would be more accessible to a setting with minimal equipment and larger groups. Regardless, the original post asked...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My point was that fitness that requires equipment not available in a dojo, cannot be provided within the framework of those classes. I'm not talking about what a person can do outside classes - that's (by my reckoning) no longer part of the system.


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## jobo (Jan 7, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> It's not something a group of people can do in the middle of a dojo, so not relevant to the context.





gpseymour said:


> It's not something a group of people can do in the middle of a dojo, so not relevant to the context.


why ever not,  ? you could get one half holding feet whilst the other half do push ups, thats training for both halfs
or put your feet agaibst the wall, you have walls i take it, that a bit harder, as you have got to push backwards as well to keep your feet on the wall, better work up to that one, go with hands
you dont want a,solution, do you ?


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## skribs (Jan 7, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If some stranger wants to test your punching power, ask you to punch him as hard as you can in front of public, what will you do?
> 
> What will you do when you have accepted a personal challenge? If you take easy on your opponent, next day there will be many other challengers. If you give your opponent a hard time, people may leave you along after that.
> 
> ...



If you back out of a fight, they think you're a coward.  If you fight, someone is going to get hurt.  I'd rather be thought a coward than have someone get hurt.  If they escalate it beyond a request, then, *and only then*, will I fight.

I believe for the vast majority of martial artists, we don't have challengers lining up to take us on.  With a few exceptions (maybe someone famous or someone in prison, for example), I think that's a pretty safe assumption.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 7, 2021)

skribs said:


> If you back out of a fight, they think you're a coward.  If you fight, someone is going to get hurt.  I'd rather be thought a coward than have someone get hurt.  If they escalate it beyond a request, then, *and only then*, will I fight.
> 
> I believe for the vast majority of martial artists, we don't have challengers lining up to take us on.  With a few exceptions (maybe someone famous or someone in prison, for example), I think that's a pretty safe assumption.


You just start your MA class in front of your 50 students. A guy with a Karate uniform and a black belt on his waist who walks into your class, bows to you, and says, "May I spar with you?"

You were in your 30, top shape in your life. Will you turn down someone's challenge in front of your 50 students?

The praying mantis master Brendan Lai told me how did he accept a challenge fight. He told the challenger that he was going to throw just 1 punch. If his opponent could block it, his opponent won, Otherwise, he won.

My SC senior brother David C. K. Lin told me how did he accept a challenge fight. He told the challenger that he was going to attack him 3 times. if in any 1 of those 3 attacks, the challenger could remain standing on his feet for more than 3 seconds, the challenger won, otherwise he won.

In the above 2 examples, both tested their offense skill.

You can also test your defense skill (this is even more civilized in my opinion). You may tell the challenger that he can throw 20 punches toward you. If among those 20 punches, any punch that can land on your body, he wins, otherwise you win.

You challenge me. I let you attack me and I only play defense. You just can't find any more civilized challenge fight than this.

There are many civilized way to accept a challenge fight. IMO, the challenge fight is an excellent way to test your MA skill.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 7, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You just start your MA class in front of your 50 students. A guy with a Karate uniform and a black belt on his waist who walks into your class, bows to you, and says, "May I spar with you?"
> 
> You were in your 30, top shape in your life. Will you turn down someone's challenge in front of your 50 students?


Yup. I'd tell him I'm in the middle of teaching a class, he's welcome to join the class if he'd like, but otherwise I'm going back to teaching. If he insists past that I tell him I'm calling the police.

On top of that, that's not something that happens anymore.


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## skribs (Jan 7, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You just start your MA class in front of your 50 students. A guy with a Karate uniform and a black belt on his waist who walks into your class, bows to you, and says, "May I spar with you?"
> 
> You were in your 30, top shape in your life. Will you turn down someone's challenge in front of your 50 students?
> 
> ...



Show of hands.  How many people have actually had this happen?

On the rare chance that it did, I would politely decline.  And if he pressed the issue, I would call the police.  

I don't know this person.  I don't know what rules they'll want to fight under - rules which I may be ill prepared for and would make me look foolish.  I don't know if he wants a friendly bout or if he's going to keep going even if he TKO's me.  This isn't a sanctioned bout with a referee.  It's a random dude walking in off the street with what might as well be pajamas he bought off of Amazon.  At the very least, he's interrupting my class.  I have nothing to gain by fighting him.  He's put me in a situation where the best outcome for me is that everything stays the same.

I would want my students to learn that you avoid fighting at all costs.  And just because he wanted to fight me, doesn't mean I have to fight him.


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## dvcochran (Jan 7, 2021)

Steve said:


> A college coed, for example, can anticipate that she may be the victim of sexual assault and take steps to mitigate that violence. But would she be justified in ripping out the trachea of the bad guy?


It is easy for experienced people to set on the sidelines and make assertions like these. You frame this as if you Never done anything stupid in your life. While I fully agree that a college girl should be prepared for certain encounters, that certainly does not mean the are not and do not happen. Even when one side does take steps to prevent it.  
So would she be justified? Yes and YES. 
You clearly do not understand "an eye for an eye". 



Steve said:


> Or let's look at cops. Cops shouldn't generally be killing folks. And when they do, how often do they use the hyper violent techniques that are often taught in self defense classes? Generally, when a cop kills someone it's with a gun.


Fully agree. Although I am not at all certain what 'cops' have to do with this subject. It is their job to protect and be involved in and with the most unsavory people in the country. Their approach to this kind of situation is going to be completely different from the average layperson. 



Steve said:


> Point isn't to undercut the seriousness of violent crime. It's simply to point out that brutally, ruthlessly murdering a bad guy is not reasonable.


It must be weighed against the action being taken against you. Very, very few people can accurately assess an attack situation in real time and make the kind of decisions you think everyone should be able to make. 
If someone is trying to kill you or yours, it would never be ruthless murder. Brutal? Yea, most likely. 
Reasonable? Definitely. 



Steve said:


> And if you're in a profession or field where you may actually need to ruthlessly kill folks (e.g., cop, soldier, mercenary, gang member, professional hit man), that to me isn't self defense. It's professional violence, in the same way that when an MMA fighter steps into the ring, what they he/she is doing isn't self defense. And in these violent professions, the rules of engagement are unique to the role.


Again, not a reasonable comparison. This is two consenting people bashing on each other. This could not be more different in scope. 



Steve said:


> And any preparation should be contextual. A surprising number of people are killed by agricultural machinery, so one would expect that people who work around agricultural machinery would want to take steps to mitigate those risks. But these steps wouldn't be all that helpful to folks who seldom or never encounter that machinery. It's specific.


What???

con·text·u·al
/kənˈteksCHo͝oəl/
_adjective_

depending on or relating to the circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea.
"he included contextual information in footnotes"
depending on the preceding or following parts of a text to clarify meaning.
"they have limited practice in working out the meaning of unfamiliar material from contextual clues"

You are trying to compare an accident involving equipment to a human assaulting another human. 
Sure it is easy to say "should have, could have, would have". But accidents still happen. 
Comparing this to an assault makes no sense what so ever. 


To your "It's specific" comment. So, of course it is? An attack or accident is specific to the person(s) involved. It would be very personal. That in no way means it does not happen or could not happen to you or anyone else. 

This is what any kind of preparation is about. But this puts the conversation into a whole different realm.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jan 7, 2021)

MetalBoar said:


> and it sounds to me like you read this as, "What is a practical way to teach self defense in a commercial martial arts school?".


Nope I know the answer to this.  What I don't know is the perspective that others define Practical

Edit.  I know what Practical is to me but not everyone sees it the same way that I see it.  So I'm trying to get a feel of how to say.   For example, "We teach practical martial arts techniques." and then have everyone be on the same page.  So I'm thinking I'll have to define it so that there is no confusion as to what I'm referring to as being practical. 

I didn't thing the perspectives would vary as much as what has been described.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 7, 2021)

skribs said:


> I have nothing to gain by fighting him. ... I would want my students to learn that you avoid fighting at all costs.


Your gain is to have a chance to test your MA skill.

IMO, "avoid fighting" is different from "accumulate fighting experience during young age".

Back in 1980, this guy in black (from US) who went to Taiwan and challenged anybody in the public. The guy in the white used finger jab and hit on the challenger's throat and ended the fight.

One time I went back to Taiwan from US. My friend suggested me to challenge the guy in white. I went to his MA school. He knew I was a challenger. Since he was very polite to me. I didn't challenge him that day.











Back in the 80, Bruce Frantzis also went to Taiwan and public challenged everybody. He told Taiwan TV station that nobody in Taiwan had courage to accept his challenge. One day he challenged my teacher in the park (Bruce was in his 30 and my teacher was in his 70).

Challenge fight was very popular back in those day. Today, it seems to me that nobody challenge anybody any more.


----------



## dvcochran (Jan 7, 2021)

skribs said:


> Show of hands.  How many people have actually had this happen?
> 
> On the rare chance that it did, I would politely decline.  And if he pressed the issue, I would call the police.
> 
> ...


Agree. Even if you fought and won, you would loose in the long run.


----------



## dvcochran (Jan 7, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Your gain is to have a chance to test your MA skill.
> 
> IMO, "avoid fighting" is different from "accumulate fighting experience during young age".


So you advocate bar fighting in your 20's?


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 7, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> So you advocate bar fighting in your 20's?


I don't go to bar. I don't like the bar environment.

When I was young, I liked to go to Karate school and watched the class. At the end of the class, I would ask a certain student if he was willing to spar with me in the park during the weekend. Most of the time people would accept my polite invitation. That was the way I formed my fighting club when I was young. My fighting club had TKD guy, Kenpo guy. Hapkido guy, Okinawa Karate guy, MT guy, Kung Fu guy (myself). That was the best time in my life.


----------



## dvcochran (Jan 7, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I don't go to bar. I don't like the bar environment.
> 
> When I was young, I liked to go to Karate school and watched the class. At the end of the class, I would ask a certain student if he was willing to spar with me in the park during the weekend. Most of the time people would accept my polite invitation. That was the way I formed my fighting club when I was young. My fighting club had TKD guy, Kenpo guy. Hapkido guy, Okinawa Karate guy, MT guy, Kung Fu guy (myself). That was the best time in my life.


That was/is a great thing to do. But completely different from a stranger coming into your school and challenging the instructor.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 7, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> That was/is a great thing to do. But completely different from a stranger coming into your school and challenging the instructor.


It can be worse than that.

Bruce Frantzis met my teacher in the park in Taiwan. Bruce asked my teacher, "What is the application of the Taiji needle at the bottom of the sea?" When my teacher tried to explain him the application, Bruce went behind my teacher's back and gave my teacher a bear hug. Bruce then said, "What can you do now?"

If Bruce could take my teacher down, my teacher's "Chinese wrestling king" reputation would be totally destroyed.

I don't mind the face to face challenge (I can turn down if I want to). But I have serious problem with this kind of surprised attack.


----------



## _Simon_ (Jan 8, 2021)

jobo said:


> my bunny boiler radar was right


Oh man... that's horrendous.. and quite sad. Some contributions of his I actually rather enjoyed, unfortunate it came to that.


----------



## _Simon_ (Jan 8, 2021)

jobo said:


> im not at a big on murdering people or indeed justifiable homicides,  it mess up your life no end, so no, .
> 
> you got cross with me, when i pointed out the chance of any one of us dieing from covid was extremly small, bot your doing the same with violent crime,  with no sence of irony ,
> 
> ...



Just curious, how do you then view holding grudges for decades, waiting to exact your revenge, assaulting an elderly man, breaking his walking sticks etc.. ? I'm genuinely curious


----------



## _Simon_ (Jan 8, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It can be as simple as a personal challenge.





Steve said:


> That doesn't sound random to me, or common.





Kung Fu Wang said:


> If some stranger wants to test your punching power, ask you to punch him as hard as you can in front of public, what will you do?
> 
> What will you do when you have accepted a personal challenge? If you take easy on your opponent, next day there will be many other challengers. If you give your opponent a hard time, people may leave you along after that.
> 
> ...


----------



## jobo (Jan 8, 2021)

_Simon_ said:


> Just curious, how do you then view holding grudges for decades, waiting to exact your revenge, assaulting an elderly man, breaking his walking sticks etc.. ? I'm genuinely curious


well lets be clear,  im an elderly man as well, so its not as bad as you make it sound. and i didnt really assault him in the normal sense of the word.

how do i view holding grudges, i dont view ut really i just do it,

you have to do quite a lot to me to get into my serious grudge book, not the normal cut and thrust of life, i saw someone who stole a motorbike tyre off me in 1986, i decided to let that go, that had only a 10 year grudge attached

on the other hand, a guy who done me wrong in 1984, had the family haulage firms major contract cancelled, when karma put me in charge of vetting contracts, for an international construction firm in 2006, some times you just have to wait


----------



## _Simon_ (Jan 8, 2021)

jobo said:


> well lets be clear,  im an elderly man as well, so its not as bad as you make it sound. and i didnt really assault him in the normal sense of the word.
> 
> how do i view holding grudges, i dont view ut really i just do it,
> 
> you have to do quite a lot to me to get into my serious grudge book, not the normal cut and thrust of life, i saw someone who stole a motorbike tyre off me in 1986, i decided to let that go, that had only a 10 year grudge attached



I don't think your age has any relevancy as a factor here.. but okeydokey, was just curious as you used the word 'justifiable' in the quoted post about homicide/murder, and that you didn't agree with that.


----------



## jobo (Jan 8, 2021)

_Simon_ said:


> I don't think your age has any relevancy as a factor here.. but okeydokey, was just curious as you used the word 'justifiable' in the quoted post about homicide/murder, and that you didn't agree with that.


i didnt kill him, just broke his sticks, of course my age has relevance,  if he wasnt much the dame age as me, then the whole thibg wouldnt have happen, then or now

im genuinely not big on killing people


----------



## drop bear (Jan 8, 2021)

skribs said:


> Show of hands.  How many people have actually had this happen?
> 
> On the rare chance that it did, I would politely decline.  And if he pressed the issue, I would call the police.
> 
> ...



Greg Saunders


----------



## _Simon_ (Jan 8, 2021)

jobo said:


> i didnt kill him, just broke his sticks, of course my age has relevance,  if he wasnt much the dame age as me, then the whole thibg wouldnt have happen, then or now



Ah right.. that's interesting... so being of a certain age justifies certain behaviours... I'm legit just trying to understand not judge. All good we can drop it if you'd like


----------



## _Simon_ (Jan 8, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Greg Saunders


The dude with red gloves come in to challenge? Really impressed by the fellow with black gloves, he only ramped it up when the other guy went a bit hard, and didn't beat him to a pulp, but showed his skill for sure.


----------



## drop bear (Jan 8, 2021)

_Simon_ said:


> The dude with red gloves come in to challenge? Really impressed by the fellow with black gloves, he only ramped it up when the other guy went a bit hard, and didn't beat him to a pulp, but showed his skill for sure.



Yeah. He is a super nice guy.

We knew the other dude wasn't very good.


----------



## jobo (Jan 8, 2021)

_Simon_ said:


> Ah right.. that's interesting... so being of a certain age justifies certain behaviours... I'm legit just trying to understand not judge. All good we can drop it if you'd like


im fine with it, what happened 48 year ago justifies certain behaviours,  if id have run into him when i was 20, he would have got a lot lot worse, so he is lucky to a large extent,

he made a living beating up little kids then he got to exsperiance what it feels like to be powerless, i think thats fair and just, clearly you dont, so we differ in philosophy


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jan 8, 2021)

jobo said:


> why ever not,  ? you could get one half holding feet whilst the other half do push ups, thats training for both halfs
> or put your feet agaibst the wall, you have walls i take it, that a bit harder, as you have got to push backwards as well to keep your feet on the wall, better work up to that one, go with hands
> you dont want a,solution, do you ?


Holding each other's feet I'd need to try out. Might work if everyone does it right (some risk if the supporter does a poor job). Walls are usually at a premium. Stuff stored along them, heavy bags, and such. Hard to find enough wall space for more than a small class to work together.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jan 8, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You just start your MA class in front of your 50 students. A guy with a Karate uniform and a black belt on his waist who walks into your class, bows to you, and says, "May I spar with you?"
> 
> You were in your 30, top shape in your life. Will you turn down someone's challenge in front of your 50 students?



That's sparring. And it would depend what the attitude is. Right then? No. I'm teaching class. If he wants to wait around (or perhaps join the class), I'll probably have a chance later (assuming I don't have a busy class plan, like testing). But again, that's sparring. I don't need to destroy the guy. I don't even need to win - my students aren't under any illusion that I'm Superman.



> The praying mantis master Brendan Lai told me how did he accept a challenge fight. He told the challenger that he was going to throw just 1 punch. If his opponent could block it, his opponent won, Otherwise, he won.
> 
> My SC senior brother David C. K. Lin told me how did he accept a challenge fight. He told the challenger that he was going to attack him 3 times. if in any 1 of those 3 attacks, the challenger could remain standing on his feet for more than 3 seconds, the challenger won, otherwise he won.
> 
> ...



Those aren't really challenge fights, though are they? They're friendly tests of skill.d


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jan 8, 2021)

skribs said:


> Show of hands.  How many people have actually had this happen?
> 
> On the rare chance that it did, I would politely decline.  And if he pressed the issue, I would call the police.
> 
> ...


I only know one guy who even claims this happened (and I tend to believe him). It was in the late '70's, I think.


----------



## jobo (Jan 8, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Holding each other's feet I'd need to try out. Might work if everyone does it right (some risk if the supporter does a poor job). Walls are usually at a premium. Stuff stored along them, heavy bags, and such. Hard to find enough wall space for more than a small class to work together.


we are branching off a bit, but back in my kung fu days, we did an enourmass amount of body weight exercises where the body weight was someone elses, which needs you to select partners a bit, to prevent dropping, but hell that teaches them breakfalls.

i, at about 160 lb, used to get the 300lb guy, as no one else could lift him, i tell you hopping round the gym with him on my back, was a good work out


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jan 8, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It can be worse than that.
> 
> Bruce Frantzis met my teacher in the park in Taiwan. Bruce asked my teacher, "What is the application of the Taiji needle at the bottom of the sea?" When my teacher tried to explain him the application, Bruce went behind my teacher's back and gave my teacher a bear hug. Bruce then said, "What can you do now?"
> 
> ...


I don't understand the need for the instructor to seem invulnerable. I just don't get it.


----------



## jobo (Jan 8, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Holding each other's feet I'd need to try out. Might work if everyone does it right (some risk if the supporter does a poor job). Walls are usually at a premium. Stuff stored along them, heavy bags, and such. Hard to find enough wall space for more than a small class to work together.


the real problem  you have, isnt finding  exercises that produces posertive  results in a short time,  it getting a cross section of the public to put in enough effort to count as HIT or HIIT,


there still a gain for them, even if they are only at 60% effort , as what they can do at 60% increases week on week( at least for a while), just nowhere near as fast as it might otherwise.

and clearly you need to start them off wiith something achievable and turn it up over a few weeks


----------



## skribs (Jan 8, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Your gain is to have a chance to test your MA skill.
> 
> IMO, "avoid fighting" is different from "accumulate fighting experience during young age".
> 
> ...



So gain that experience in sanctioned bouts.  The benefits are:

Rules for player safety
Referees for player safety
Medical personnel on-site for player safety
Are you noticing a theme here?

Plus, I wouldn't exactly call myself young anymore.  Maybe by @Dirty Dog 's standards.  I'm not old yet, but I'm not young.


----------



## jobo (Jan 8, 2021)

skribs said:


> So gain that experience in sanctioned bouts.  The benefits are:
> 
> Rules for player safety
> Referees for player safety
> ...


well there are different cultures in different places and different times and times of your life

when i was young if someone challenged you to a fight, then, given any equality in size, you had a fight, it was just that simple

that doesnt seem to be the case so muchthese days, which may be a good thing that casual violence  isnt so casual .

but there is it seems a lot more passivly agresive behavior, which doesnt happen so much if your likely to be punched on the nose, so its swings and round abouts

i had some bigish guy walk 50 yards to give me a peice of his mind at the top of his voice,, when o ffered to fight him he left, dont get these people at all


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jan 8, 2021)

skribs said:


> Plus, I wouldn't exactly call myself young anymore.  Maybe by @Dirty Dog 's standards.  I'm not old yet, but I'm not young.



Whippersnapper. GET OFF MY LAWN!!!


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 8, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> I don't understand the need for the instructor to seem invulnerable. I just don't get it.


When the 8 steps praying mantis master Wei Shao-Tang was in his 70, one day he was sitting in a chair and watched his students training in the park. A Zimen system guy bowed to Wei first. the Zimen guy then stepped in, and poked his fingers tips on Wei's chest while Wei was still sitting in his chair. The Zimen guy then bowed and left without saying a word. Next day that Zimen guy announced that he was faster than the 8 step praying mantis master. He attacked Wei's chest, Wei could not even block it.

When I cross trained the Zimen system, my Zimen brothers were proudly to tell me this. In Taiwan, if your name belong to the top 10 CMA masters list, every body will want to defeat you.

8 steps praying mantis master Wei Shao-Tang.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 8, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When the 8 steps praying mantis master Wei Shao-Tang was in his 70, one day he was sitting in a chair and watched his students training in the park. A Zimen system guy bowed to Wei first. the Zimen guy then stepped in, and poked his fingers tips on Wei's chest while Wei was still sitting in his chair. The Zimen guy then bowed and left without saying a word. Next day that Zimen guy announced that he was faster than the 8 step praying mantis master. He attacked Wei's chest, Wei could not even block it.
> 
> When I cross trained the Zimen system, my Zimen brothers were proudly to tell me this. In Taiwan, if your name belong to the top 10 CMA masters list, every body will want to defeat you.
> 
> 8 steps praying mantis master Wei Shao-Tang.


If I heard someone bragging about that story, I would honestly laugh and leave. It just shows they want recognition without skill.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jan 8, 2021)

jobo said:


> the real problem  you have, isnt finding  exercises that produces posertive  results in a short time,  it getting a cross section of the public to put in enough effort to count as HIT or HIIT,
> 
> 
> there still a gain for them, even if they are only at 60% effort , as what they can do at 60% increases week on week( at least for a while), just nowhere near as fast as it might otherwise.
> ...


That part is their job. If the system can provide a routine that works for everyone in the class (so it can be done together), that's sufficient. As you suggest, most folks aren't going to go near 100%, but then most don't with any other part of their training, either.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jan 8, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When the 8 steps praying mantis master Wei Shao-Tang was in his 70, one day he was sitting in a chair and watched his students training in the park. A Zimen system guy bowed to Wei first. the Zimen guy then stepped in, and poked his fingers tips on Wei's chest while Wei was still sitting in his chair. The Zimen guy then bowed and left without saying a word. Next day that Zimen guy announced that he was faster than the 8 step praying mantis master. He attacked Wei's chest, Wei could not even block it.
> 
> When I cross trained the Zimen system, my Zimen brothers were proudly to tell me this. In Taiwan, if your name belong to the top 10 CMA masters list, every body will want to defeat you.
> 
> 8 steps praying mantis master Wei Shao-Tang.


Yeah, and if students are swayed by the ability to poke a 70-year-old guy in the chest without warning, there's not much real thought going on.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 8, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> If I heard someone bragging about that story, I would honestly laugh and leave. It just shows they want recognition without skill.


This is a very famous video clip. When the Chen Taiji master Chen Xiao Wang visited Taiwan from China, a young guy challenged him in push hand. After the young guy push on Chen's chest, the young guy announced that he had defeated the Taiji master Chen Xiao Wang. 

May be the MA culture in China and Taiwan is different from the MA culture in US.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 8, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is a very famous video clip. When the Chen Taiji master Chen Xiao Wang visited Taiwan from China, a young guy challenged him in push hand. After the young guy push on Chen's chest, the young guy announced that he had defeated the Taiji master Chen Xiao Wang.
> 
> May be the MA culture in China and Taiwan is different from the MA culture in US.


From what you are describing, definitely. There's much less of a need to prove yourself in random challenges, and it's acknowledged that no one is invincible. Basically no one is going to win everything all the time, if I faced someone 100 times and won 99 of them- technically they beat me. But no one would think they were the more skilled of us.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 8, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Yeah, and if students are swayed by the ability to poke a 70-year-old guy in the chest without warning, there's not much real thought going on.


It just show you how crazy the MA community can be.

Believe it or not. One day someone knocked on my front door during the evening. It was a guy with his girl friend (the girl had a video camera). This guy wants to challenge me in Taiji push hand. I told him that I don't do Taiji push hand. But I can spar or wrestle with him. He said that he had bad knee and cannot wrestle any more. We just sat in my living room and talk. After he left, I have never seen him since then. That was more than 30 years ago.

Crazy thing like this could happen in US as well.


----------



## dvcochran (Jan 8, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> I don't understand the need for the instructor to seem invulnerable. I just don't get it.


The Machismo that another thread is talking about.


----------



## drop bear (Jan 8, 2021)

skribs said:


> So gain that experience in sanctioned bouts.  The benefits are:
> 
> Rules for player safety
> Referees for player safety
> ...



It seems like there is this idea that if there are gloves and rules the the situation is automatically safe and probably not that bad.






The reality of the situation is different.

If you get trapped in a ring with a guy who doesn't like you and is a much more competent fighter then you can be in serious trouble. And it is a real thing in combat sports.

You can be placed in a situation with rules and with pads where you are at the mercy of the guy attacking you. And there is enough tools in the shed to seriously injure you. Especially if it is in a gym and not a sanctioned fight.

That guy in my last video used to spar serious pro fighters and has been badly injured in those sessions. They were sessions you basically don't go to because fighters who were definitely out of my league would really go for you. 

You think it is some sort of joke. But it is a real self defence situation some times.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jan 8, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is a very famous video clip. When the Chen Taiji master Chen Xiao Wang visited Taiwan from China, a young guy challenged him in push hand. After the young guy push on Chen's chest, the young guy announced that he had defeated the Taiji master Chen Xiao Wang.
> 
> May be the MA culture in China and Taiwan is different from the MA culture in US.


Yeah it's different in the U.S.  We are more of a medal culture, so if for the most part it's not real unless you have the medals tor trophies o prove it. Some people still challenge others though.  Before I joined a second Jow Ga School, a stranger came to the school and challenged the instructors to a fight,  the sifu of the school wasn't there that day.  The instructors didn't accept the challenge and the Sifu was disappointed that they didn't. 

It's probably good that they didn't accept the challenge.  They probably wouldn't have won using Kung Fu. If I was in the school then and had the skill set that I do now, then I would have accept the challenge as soon as he signed a wavier.  I would also set rules  even though it's a challenge.  Then I would fight as if there are no rules, meaning that I will fight as if my opponent will try to sneak attack me and do cheap shots.  But I would follow the rules myself., unless my opponent broke the rules.

I don't see anything wrong with Challenges.  So long as they are respectful.  The fastest way to gain or lose a reputation is through a challenge.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jan 8, 2021)

drop bear said:


> It seems like there is this idea that if there are gloves and rules the the situation is automatically safe and probably not that bad.


My perspective is to have rules.  The fight with the expectation that your opponent will break the rules.   That way, it keeps  you from lowering your defenses.

Charlie Z is not respectful and the guys in that clip probably already knew.  Charlie is the type of guy a lot of people want to fight because of the sucker punches he gives people.

Keep in mind that these aren't challenge fights.  These were supposed to be friend "get some exercise" sparring.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jan 8, 2021)

Someone like this deserves to get the beat down.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 8, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I would have accept the challenge as soon as he signed a wavier. I would also set rules  even though it's a challenge.


Agree with you 100% there. Many years ago, at the end of a US SC tournament, the SC tournament champion challenged my senior SC brother David C. K. Lin. He didn't want to accept that challenge. I accepted that challenged for him. Later on David said I should not accept that challenge without people to sign a wavier. I was young and I didn't pay attention on those legal issue back then.

I had been challenged as:

- Kick and punch only, no throw.
- Punch only, no kick, no throw.
- Wrestling only, no strike.
- Taiji push hand only.
- Arm wrestling only.

IMO, it makes no sense to let a challenger to set the rules. If someone wants to challenge you, you should set the rules. If the challenger has bad knee and cannot wrestle, he should not challenge you in the first place.


----------



## skribs (Jan 8, 2021)

> You can be placed in a situation with rules and with pads where you are at the mercy of the guy attacking you. And there is enough tools in the shed to seriously injure you. *Especially if it is in a gym and not a sanctioned fight*.



Hence why I said "sanctioned bouts."  There you go again.  Changing what I said so you can argue against it.

Even then, where the sanctioned bout doesn't eliminate the risks, it does mitigate them, for the reasons I said.  Yes, the rules may be broken, but they are less likely to be.  Yes, the ref may stop the fight late, but it's going to be better than there not being a ref to stop the fight.


----------



## skribs (Jan 8, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Charlie Z is not respectful and the guys in that clip probably already knew. Charlie is the type of guy a lot of people want to fight because of the sucker punches he gives people.
> 
> Keep in mind that these aren't challenge fights. These were supposed to be friend "get some exercise" sparring.



All the more reason not to fight some rando off the street.


----------



## WaterGal (Jan 8, 2021)

skribs said:


> Show of hands.  How many people have actually had this happen?
> 
> On the rare chance that it did, I would politely decline.  And if he pressed the issue, I would call the police.



Maybe 8 or 10 years ago, I was taking part in a TKD demonstration at a local festival. A young man, who was obviously a bit intoxicated, came up and demanded to fight us. We politely declined and, yes, IIRC, told him we'd alert the police if he didn't go away. He went away.


----------



## skribs (Jan 8, 2021)

WaterGal said:


> Maybe 8 or 10 years ago, I was taking part in a TKD demonstration at a local festival. A young man, who was obviously a bit intoxicated, came up and demanded to fight us. We politely declined and, yes, IIRC, told him we'd alert the police if he didn't go away. He went away.



Even that's different than a black belt premeditatedly walking into your dojo during class.


----------



## drop bear (Jan 8, 2021)

skribs said:


> Hence why I said "sanctioned bouts."  There you go again.  Changing what I said so you can argue against it.
> 
> Even then, where the sanctioned bout doesn't eliminate the risks, it does mitigate them, for the reasons I said.  Yes, the rules may be broken, but they are less likely to be.  Yes, the ref may stop the fight late, but it's going to be better than there not being a ref to stop the fight.



The challenges mentioned by kung fu Wang won't have been sanctioned bouts.

So you just decided to change what he was saying?


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## WaterGal (Jan 8, 2021)

skribs said:


> Even that's different than a black belt premeditatedly walking into your dojo during class.



Yeah, that's true. We do sometimes have TKD black belts from other schools come by to try a class. Some of them end up signing up. One acted like a jerk and we had to kick him out. But none of them came and demanded to challenge the instructor, lol.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jan 8, 2021)

drop bear said:


> It seems like there is this idea that if there are gloves and rules the the situation is automatically safe and probably not that bad.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



To be fair, actual undegrounded sanctioned fights tend to not back people who break rules.  Like there are sanctioned unsanctioned fights and if you are known as "that guy"no one will probbly fight you or host you.  Actualy thats sort of the same with not undergroudn fights, the Zenov thing was a bunch of people who probbly should have known better enabling him.

Now dont get me wrong there are to the death fights underground and that nonsense, like they might let them stomp on you, so you could get really hurt if they jump on you with their knee three times in the head.


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## drop bear (Jan 8, 2021)

Rat said:


> To be fair, actual undegrounded sanctioned fights tend to not back people who break rules.  Like there are sanctioned unsanctioned fights and if you are known as "that guy"no one will probbly fight you or host you.  Actualy thats sort of the same with not undergroudn fights, the Zenov thing was a bunch of people who probbly should have known better enabling him.
> 
> Now dont get me wrong there are to the death fights underground and that nonsense, like they might let them stomp on you, so you could get really hurt if they jump on you with their knee three times in the head.



There is a culture in some gyms that you fight whoever they put in front of you. This is part of building a warrior ethos.


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## skribs (Jan 8, 2021)

drop bear said:


> The challenges mentioned by kung fu Wang won't have been sanctioned bouts.
> 
> So you just decided to change what he was saying?



I addressed the situation he said, and then added this is the only way I'd fight some rando who came in.  But, I shouldn't be surprised you're trying to accuse me of what you did, when I didn't.  Typical of you.



WaterGal said:


> Yeah, that's true. We do sometimes have TKD black belts from other schools come by to try a class. Some of them end up signing up. One acted like a jerk and we had to kick him out. But none of them came and demanded to challenge the instructor, lol.



Which is still different than a challenge.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 8, 2021)

skribs said:


> All the more reason not to fight some rando off the street.


It doesn't matter to me.  I've sparred against strangers before.. But I always had my defense fully activated even if my attacking power wasn't.  When I was in my 20's I worked at a community center where a guy new muy thai.  My friend/ co-worker and I used to spar during the down times, and this one guy wanted to join as well.  His bragged about his Muy Thai.  I set the rules,  He used a low kick to my leg but I raised my knee the kick went under.  The kick was hard as spun around and tried to take my head off with a spinning backfist.  My defense was tight.  His fist fell on my guard.  He thought he could suck punch me,  He failed.  I corrected him.   He did it again after the first warning.  His spinning back fist failed again.  I warned him again.

Twice I stopped his serious attacks with ease,  it didn't even scare me, make me mad,.  I was calm and that probably made him nervous.  My second warning was harsh.  I told him that I will return the favor if he tries it again.  He never did.  He also stop sparring with me.  So out of all of this what did I gain?

Here's what I gained.
1.  I have a video of it somewhere  it's on VHS if I can find it I will share it.
2.  My self-defense skills using Karate that day was verified as still valid (I was taking Jow Ga back then but didn't know how to fight with it, so I had to fall back on my Karate). 
3.  I had a witness (my friend) there and he was able to see me validate all that I was teaching him.
4.  Self-reflection.  I now had a better idea of my abilities not just in a friendly sparring match but against someone who tried to throw cheap shots,  Against a stranger.
5. And I have this small but cool story about how someone tried to sucker punch me twice and how I came out on top.
6. When people ask me about my experience this one of the examples I can give when I teach and as an example of my ability.

It may not seem like much from the outside, but for me on the inside.  It was an honest confidence builder about my ability to physically defend myself.  In the context of business, people that I teach self-defense to like this little part of my life.  It puts the questions of "can I really use what I teach" to rest.  There have been a few moms who trusted me with teaching their son or daughter how to fight and use self-defense. Could it have gone bad. Sure of course.  There's a lot of things in life that can go bad, but sometimes you have to trust your ability to analyze others.

Do I think everyone should accept challenge fights?  Definitely not.  For me personally I'm always honest with my limits.  I wouldn't accept one if I had a strong feeling I would lose without the possibility of winning.


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## drop bear (Jan 8, 2021)

skribs said:


> I addressed the situation he said, and then added this is the only way I'd fight some rando who came in.  But, I shouldn't be surprised you're trying to accuse me of what you did, when I didn't.  Typical of you.
> 
> 
> 
> Which is still different than a challenge.



Which of course side steps the issue of ever having to fight anyone. 

Which is fine unless you are seeking self defence training off that guy.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 8, 2021)

drop bear said:


> There is a culture in some gyms that you fight whoever they put in front of you. This is part of building a warrior ethos.


This is the reality when you one school spars with another school.  The owners of the school may know each other, but the students probably won't. My first trip to the Sanda  school, I sparred with all of their students there, I didn't know them.  I had a decent showing the first time around, became their target.  There other students wanted a go at me, so they showed up.  I didn't know them either. We didn't get to select who we sparred with.  Everyone got a piece.

In terms of the self-defense I think it's good to spar with strangers and people of different sizes.  If a person only feel comfortable against people he or she knows, then that could turn into a security blanket.  Like how you sometimes see people in martial arts competition sparring get nervous or scared about the stranger in front of them.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 8, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I think it's good to spar with strangers and people of different sizes.


If you train MA, but you (general you) haven't gone through challenge fight when you were young, IMO, your MA life is not complete. Of course there is always some risk involve. But that the exciting part of our life.

When you see a group of wrestlers that wrestled in the park. You ask them if you can wrestle with them. IMO, that's absolutely normal behavior.

In Chinese, it's called "to use your MA skill to make friends".


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## dvcochran (Jan 8, 2021)

drop bear said:


> It seems like there is this idea that if there are gloves and rules the the situation is automatically safe and probably not that bad.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Agree. There is a lot of science out there on the real safety of sparring gear. I am still an advocate of headgear but it can definitely give a person a false sense of security. I can say from experience you can still be knocked out wearing headgear.
Gloves can do the same thing on either side of the equation. 

Another good example are shoulder pad neck rolls that were very popular in football when I played. Later it was confirmed that they were a major contributor to a Lot of back and spinal injuries.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 8, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> the real safety of sparring gear.


The challenge fight is not life and death fight. If you can land a punch on my head. The fight is over. You win and I lose. You don't have to kill me to prove that you are better than me.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 8, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> but it can definitely give a person a false sense of security.


I think most people use protective gear wrong.  I think most think that it's ok to get hit if they have gear on.  For example, they will take risks with gear that they won't take without gear.    The way that I look at my protective gear is that it's there in case I screw up.  I still try to being hit in the head.  Other times people think they can hit someone in the head harder just because someone has head gear.  This are 2 assumptions that often get people in trouble.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 8, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> it can definitely give a person a false sense of security.


Fighting is like "your shirt is catching on fire". You will need that kind of alert in fighting. The protection gear just take that feeling away from you.


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## isshinryuronin (Jan 9, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I think most people use protective gear wrong.  I think most think that it's ok to get hit if they have gear on.  For example, they will take risks with gear that they won't take without gear.    The way that I look at my protective gear is that it's there in case I screw up.  I still try to being hit in the head.  Other times people think they can hit someone in the head harder just because someone has head gear.  This are 2 assumptions that often get people in trouble.



When the foam hand pads and headgear first came out for tournaments (I think Master Jhoon Rhee's innovation) back in 1973/4, or there about, they were not well received by many traditional karateka (as well as shin, foot and arm pads - the old guard called them pu--y pads.) They were bulky, made one's technique sloppy, made strikes easier to block, and  encouraged heavier contact.  The result was, IMO, just as many injuries - the benefits being equaled by the liabilities.

Also, when punching with control, stopping the barehand strike 1/4 inch from the opponent's nose, the extra 1 inch thickness of the hand pad resulted in 3/4 inch of the pad being pushed into the opponent's nose.  Took some time to adjust for the new distance.  Overall, control by the attacker was reduced and the defender got a false sense of security.

Maybe those who were raised on the pads coped better with them.  I remain with mixed feelings, mostly against (but maybe a little less against the older I get.)


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## drop bear (Jan 9, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> When the foam hand pads and headgear first came out for tournaments (I think Master Jhoon Rhee's innovation) back in 1973/4, or there about, they were not well received by many traditional karateka (as well as shin, foot and arm pads - the old guard called them pu--y pads.) They were bulky, made one's technique sloppy, made strikes easier to block, and  encouraged heavier contact.  The result was, IMO, just as many injuries - the benefits being equaled by the liabilities.
> 
> Also, when punching with control, stopping the barehand strike 1/4 inch from the opponent's nose, the extra 1 inch thickness of the hand pad resulted in 3/4 inch of the pad being pushed into the opponent's nose.  Took some time to adjust for the new distance.  Overall, control by the attacker was reduced and the defender got a false sense of security.
> 
> Maybe those who were raised on the pads coped better with them.  I remain with mixed feelings, mostly against (but maybe a little less against the older I get.)



You really have to be able to make contact to understand the mechanics of a fight properly.


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## dvcochran (Jan 9, 2021)

drop bear said:


> You really have to be able to make contact to understand the mechanics of a fight properly.


Have you watched any of the pro bare knuckle fights? That is rough stuff. I do think that is one area where padding really helps. You can still bruise and even break bones when padded up. But torn skin and bleeding is almost non-existent, the nose being the main exception.

I am sure you know some of the punching methods to tear or break skin. Very, very effective.


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## drop bear (Jan 9, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> Have you watched any of the pro bare knuckle fights? That is rough stuff. I do think that is one area where padding really helps. You can still bruise and even break bones when padded up. But torn skin and bleeding is almost non-existent, the nose being the main exception.
> 
> I am sure you know some of the punching methods to tear or break skin. Very, very effective.



Yeah. I know some guys who have done bare  knuckle competitions. Obviously with mma. Knees and elbows open people up.

There is even some guys who are going to do bare knuckle with head butts soon.

All of those guys train with gloves.

Otherwise I don't tend to use methods that cut people specifically. I want to render people ineffective and blunt force I think is a little better at that generally.






Even in Cambodia? (Not sure) they train with gloves on.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 10, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The challenge fight is not life and death fight. If you can land a punch on my head. The fight is over. You win and I lose. You don't have to kill me to prove that you are better than me.


I'm not a fan of that thought process. That implies that landing a single punch is all that matters. A good boxer might actually let me get a test jab in that makes contact, because it puts me in range of his counter. Me making contact with his head once doesn't mean I'd have won in a real test of ability. In fact, if all I have to do is touch someone, it changes the range dynamics, because I no longer have to be concerned with my ability to deliver power or mass to the target.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 10, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I think most people use protective gear wrong.  I think most think that it's ok to get hit if they have gear on.  For example, they will take risks with gear that they won't take without gear.    The way that I look at my protective gear is that it's there in case I screw up.  I still try to being hit in the head.  Other times people think they can hit someone in the head harder just because someone has head gear.  This are 2 assumptions that often get people in trouble.


I think the problem is that hits don't feel as bad, so folks get used to getting hit harder than they think. It's a problem inherent in using that gear all the time. It's probably safer if gear is fitted to the level of intensity. So, for light sparring, maybe no gear at all.


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## jobo (Jan 10, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> I'm not a fan of that thought process. That implies that landing a single punch is all that matters. A good boxer might actually let me get a test jab in that makes contact, because it puts me in range of his counter. Me making contact with his head once doesn't mean I'd have won in a real test of ability. In fact, if all I have to do is touch someone, it changes the range dynamics, because I no longer have to be concerned with my ability to deliver power or mass to the target.


i think he is being a bit to general,  but yes to some extent, if you hit a"normal"person full force, it really should be knocking them over, or at least out on their feet for a short time,

i know there are people who can absorb a great deal, but if it happens to you against a lot of people , particular if you hit them a few times,then you really need to consider your punching power training


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 10, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> if all I have to do is touch someone, it changes the range dynamics, because I no longer have to be concerned with my ability to deliver power or mass to the target.


If you punch and your opponent can't block it. It means you have better speed training than he has. As far as the speed is concern, you win and he lose.

The challenge can be in many different forms. Someone can challenge you in speed, power, punch only, kick only, throw only, ground game only, ...

I was challenge in arm wrestling one time. In that challenge, I didn't have to worry about speed.

In my personal experience, most of the personal challenge are civilized.

A: I think I'm faster than you.
B: Come and try me.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 11, 2021)

jobo said:


> i think he is being a bit to general,  but yes to some extent, if you hit a"normal"person full force, it really should be knocking them over, or at least out on their feet for a short time,
> 
> i know there are people who can absorb a great deal, but if it happens to you against a lot of people , particular if you hit them a few times,then you really need to consider your punching power training


I'm not sure you read my post beyond the first sentence, since the entire point was that tag-scoring doesn't guarantee you'd have gotten in a punch with any force.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 11, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you punch and your opponent can't block it. It means you have better speed training than he has. As far as the speed is concern, you win and he lose.
> 
> The challenge can be in many different forms. Someone can challenge you in speed, power, punch only, kick only, throw only, ground game only, ...
> 
> ...


I can punch really fast and from farther away when I don't need to worry about form (to protect myself) or ranging (to deliver power). That tag isn't really a good measure of my actual punching speed or ability to deliver useful punches. 

IMO, continuous light, technical sparring is a better guage. it still suffers some of the issues, but it's no longer a matter of first-tap, and superior skill will normally show through.


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## jobo (Jan 11, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> I'm not sure you read my post beyond the first sentence, since the entire point was that tag-scoring doesn't guarantee you'd have gotten in a punch with any force.


it really should, if your using punch mechanics rather than slapping, energy as we have discussed at great lenth being largly dependent on velocity

it should at least gaureente that you could have landed a telling punch if you had wanted to


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 11, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> So, for light sparring, maybe no gear at all.


It both the participants are not learning how to apply techniques, then yes. This means they are already using what they are good at and most comfortable with.  But if they are learning how to use a technique then I would put the gear on.

If the learning is honest, then that means they are taking bigger risks by trying to apply a technique that they may not understand yet. This means they are going to eat a lot of punches that otherwise they would have been able to avoid.  Depending on the system being trained, that person may end up moving into a kick, punch, knee, or elbow, or an upper cut.  At least that's how it was for me.  I just had to accept the fact that I was going to get hit a lot so I needed someone who could control there power.

Most of the times, I got punched in the face, but one time I got kicked in the head and was thankful that the kick wasn't hard and that I wasn't feeling that shin.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 11, 2021)

jobo said:


> it really should, if your using punch mechanics rather than slapping, energy as we have discussed at great lenth being largly dependent on velocity


Go find a wall,  and give it a tap with the fastest move you can. It's still a tap.



> it should at least gaureente that you could have landed a telling punch if you had wanted to


Now try that tap at a distance where you can't do more than give a healthy finger-poke. Being able to tag something isn't the same as being able to punch it hard. Now add to that the fact that some fighters are good at reading feints (many of which are fast, uncommitted punches). They've developed their pattern recognition so that they automatically don't respond to punches that aren't a threat, so those punches can't be used to set them up for something else.

If I can tag someone, it does mean I had a better chance at punching them hard than if I hadn't been able to tag them. But I don't buy that the person who's better at speed tag is also the better fighter.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 11, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> It both the participants are not learning how to apply techniques, then yes. This means they are already using what they are good at and most comfortable with.  But if they are learning how to use a technique then I would put the gear on.
> 
> If the learning is honest, then that means they are taking bigger risks by trying to apply a technique that they may not understand yet. This means they are going to eat a lot of punches that otherwise they would have been able to avoid.  Depending on the system being trained, that person may end up moving into a kick, punch, knee, or elbow, or an upper cut.  At least that's how it was for me.  I just had to accept the fact that I was going to get hit a lot so I needed someone who could control there power.
> 
> Most of the times, I got punched in the face, but one time I got kicked in the head and was thankful that the kick wasn't hard and that I wasn't feeling that shin.


That's reasonable. I think we may also have a different view of light, technical sparring. Nothing is delivered with any significant force, so even if you walk into a strike, it's unlikely to do more than bruise a bit. I prefer this with either very thin gloves (MMA, for instance) or none, as it keeps folks from developing bad habits, and gives them a chance to get used to (and be less surprised by) being hit.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 11, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> IMO, continuous light, technical sparring is a better guage.


When someone challenges me, I have the right to set up the rule and make fight simple.

Sometimes I like to ask a challenger just to block my one circular punch. When I throw a right circular punch, if my opponent can use his left arm (not right arm) to block it. He wins and I lose.

If my opponent can block the most powerful punch that I can generate, he wins already. Any continuous fighting after that just make me to look like a fool.


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## jobo (Jan 11, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Go find a wall,  and give it a tap with the fastest move you can. It's still a tap.
> 
> 
> Now try that tap at a distance where you can't do more than give a healthy finger-poke. Being able to tag something isn't the same as being able to punch it hard. Now add to that the fact that some fighters are good at reading feints (many of which are fast, uncommitted punches). They've developed their pattern recognition so that they automatically don't respond to punches that aren't a threat, so those punches can't be used to set them up for something else.
> ...


have you actualky tried that, in the intrsst of science ive just punched the wall with the fastest movement, it hurt ny hand and has left a depresion in the plaster, now you try it


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 11, 2021)

I would like to make it clear one more time. Personal challenge is not life and death fight.

This is fun.

A: What can you do it I punch on your head?
B: Come and try me.

This is not fun.

A: What can you do if I stab a knife into your heart?
B: If you come with your knife, I'll meet you with my Colt 45.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 11, 2021)

jobo said:


> have you actualky tried that, in the intrsst of science ive just punched the wall with the fastest movement, it hurt ny hand and has left a depresion in the plaster, now you try it


Then you lack control. I can easily punch a finger wall (person, bag, makiwara) lightly with a high-speed punch. I have done it many times with students to demonstrate exactly this point.


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## jobo (Jan 12, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Then you lack control. I can easily punch a finger wall (person, bag, makiwara) lightly with a high-speed punch. I have done it many times with students to demonstrate exactly this point.


well your either very slow, your not moving at hi,gh speed or more likely you decelerating it before contact

as its one of those it doesnt even slightly disprove the science, unless of course you have a magic hand,, in which case contact the randi foundation and claim you priz

ive,smashed my knuckles at high
h speed many many time whilst working on cars and it definely hurts, a lot e


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 13, 2021)

jobo said:


> well your either very slow, your not moving at hi,gh speed or more likely you decelerating it before contact
> 
> as its one of those it doesnt even slightly disprove the science, unless of course you have a magic hand,, in which case contact the randi foundation and claim you priz
> 
> ...


Ah, I think you're starting to get closer to "getting it". Yes, the high-speed tap has deceleration at the end. That's how it works. But the fact that I can get it there at that speed does NOT mean I could also have delivered a high-quality punch to that target. The easiest way to make that tap work is to set up a bit further from the wall than you'd like for a punch. The punch then naturally decelerates some at the end, because the target is out of practical range. But I can still land that tap.

So go ahead and claim you're proving something with science. You misuse that a lot when you just feel the need to be argumentative and don't actually have a point.


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## jobo (Jan 13, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Ah, I think you're starting to get closer to "getting it". Yes, the high-speed tap has deceleration at the end. That's how it works. But the fact that I can get it there at that speed does NOT mean I could also have delivered a high-quality punch to that target. The easiest way to make that tap work is to set up a bit further from the wall than you'd like for a punch. The punch then naturally decelerates some at the end, because the target is out of practical range. But I can still land that tap.
> 
> So go ahead and claim you're proving something with science. You misuse that a lot when you just feel the need to be argumentative and don't actually have a point.


i did say if yiu use punch mechanics, and a high speed tap that has deceleration at the end it not a high speed tap, by definition as it going at a low(er) speed ????? and why would you take any time at all practising a low energy tap?

your the one that constantly takes issue with scientific principals that have been estabished since the acient greeks, were as this one is only a couple of hundred years old, so your improving, if we can just drag you into the 19th century !

i cant be bother posting the formular for kinetic energy again, youl only say its wrong


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 13, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> The easiest way to make that tap work is to set up a bit further from the wall than you'd like for a punch


This is how I teach how to align a punch.  I have students punch walls (it doesn't matter, it can be a brick wall. The harder the better).  Whatever part of the fist has to connect to the wall determines how far we need to stand away from the wall.  I have them space the punch so that the punch  can only tap the wall.  Then I tell them to punch the wall so that the knuckle / part of the fist taps the wall.  This allows them to punch faster and sometimes at full speed because the wall is at the end of the punch.  Where the punch naturally stops and returns to chamber.

We are still mindful of the wall because slight changes in body posture can either increase or decrease the distance.  But when we punch all you hear are knuckles tapping the wall and and occasionally a slightly harder caused by someone's structure /posture breaking down.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 13, 2021)

jobo said:


> i did say if yiu use punch mechanics, and a high speed tap that has deceleration at the end it not a high speed tap, by definition as it going at a low(er) speed ????? and why would you take any time at all practising a low energy tap?


You're arguing about the speed at impact, rather than the time it takes to get to target. The latter is the point. And you're well aware of that. You're just arguing to argue.



> your the one that constantly takes issue with scientific principals that have been estabished since the acient greeks, were as this one is only a couple of hundred years old, so your improving, if we can just drag you into the 19th century !
> 
> i cant be bother posting the formular for kinetic energy again, youl only say its wrong


I'm the one who takes issue with you misapplying them, or using semantics to argue that common usage (which faciltates communication) is incorrect because it's not the same as the scientific usage. Which is just babble.


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## jobo (Jan 13, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> You're arguing about the speed at impact, rather than the time it takes to get to target. The latter is the point. And you're well aware of that. You're just arguing to argue.
> 
> 
> I'm the one who takes issue with you misapplying them, or using semantics to argue that common usage (which faciltates communication) is incorrect because it's not the same as the scientific usage. Which is just babble.


if you slowing it down it takes a longer time to get to the target, so how ever you want to twist it its still not fast and so not energetic,

just the weight of the human hand, never mind the attached arm is roughly the equivently of soneone throwing a pound weight at you, it will hurt ,move it faster and it will hurt a lot more

coz science


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