# Protect and serve?



## Tgace (Oct 19, 2013)

Rant on:

After perusing a FB post full of "cop haters" (dunno why I bother) I was struck by all the comments about how cops are "worse these days" or how they don't "protect and serve" anymore....

IMO, most of these "good old days" of law enforcement types are wearing coke bottle bottom rose colored glasses. Seriously? Back in the "good old days" you would have been sapped into unconsciousness for simply mouthing off to a cop. People who believe the police of decades ago were better are either basing their opinions on popular media or were simply not around back then. In general we have never had as well trained a police force as we have now. What we do have is a cell phone video driven hype-fest that spreads a lot regional and individual **** ups over a profession that is a unique by department as people are unique unto themselves.

And the whole "protect and serve" meme when used against the cops is just that...a meme spouted by people with little understanding of police history. "Protect and Serve" was a motto devised by the LAPD in the 50's, it was never intended to be used as the definition for police in society. 

While I would like to protect everyone and everything from harm that's simply not possible and while I do provide a public "service" I'm no individual persons "servant". 

When it comes down to definitions, criminology texts state that the Police are around for (1) preventing crime, (2) investigating crimes and apprehending criminals, (3) maintaining order, and (4) providing other miscellaneous services. Which cover things like making your kids go to school because you don't know how to, getting Raccoon's out of attics and taking vehicle collision reports. 

:rant off.

So. What do you think the role of police in (American) society is supposed to be? I'm not asking for pie in the sky "if I had my way" responses. Id like to know what definition you would write....if it differs from the one I posted above.

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## arnisador (Oct 20, 2013)

Professionalism and respect for the letter of the law has definitely increased--and it's taken a lot of hard work on behalf of depts. Don't take crap like that!


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 20, 2013)

*I have mentioned this before as well.*  We as a society have never had as professional of a police force as we have now.  They have never been as well trained, educated, equipped, etc.  They are in general even managed better by their upper level management. Sure there are people within the profession that should not be there or they do the wrong thing.  However, this really happens in every profession.  What law enforcement does do very well is that when some thing does happen that is inappropriate or against the law by an LEO then they use it as a teaching tool for other LEO's in the profession.  

As tgace mentioned we are now in the video age where everyone has a video camcorder on them.  Where I currently live LEO's will soon be equipped with a personal mounted video device that monitors situations.  The profession will be able to learn a lot from this.

This is one of the toughest professions to work in.  Make no mistake about it!  Dealing with the 1%ers and the other 5%ers that make up our criminal population is simply a pain in the ***.  People need to understand that without the police there would be not much of a society.  Appreciate what you got because without it you would not like this world!


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## ballen0351 (Oct 20, 2013)

Yeah I get sucked into reading the cop bashing posts on FB and comment sections I tell myself dont read them but I cant help it.


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## DennisBreene (Oct 20, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> Yeah I get sucked into reading the cop bashing posts on FB and comment sections I tell myself dont read them but I cant help it.



Please keep in mind  that most of the bashing probably comes from the same 1 - 5 % of the population already noted in a previous post.  I'm sure it is not noted enough that the majority of citizens respect and appreciate the work of our police.  Thank you for what you do and the professionalism evident in modern police work.


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## Makalakumu (Oct 20, 2013)

Tgace said:


> When it comes down to definitions, criminology texts state that the Police are around for (1) preventing crime, (2) investigating crimes and apprehending criminals, (3) maintaining order, and (4) providing other miscellaneous services. Which cover things like making your kids go to school because you don't know how to, getting Raccoon's out of attics and taking vehicle collision reports. 2



Based on my research, the long response times pretty much make it impossible for the cops to prevent crime. The cops aren't actually responsible if crime does occur, according to a 1975 Supreme Court Case. Nationwide, violent crimes have a 40 % clearance rate. Property crimes have 10% clearance rate. It's so bad on Oahu, that we have private companies who will search Craigslist and Facebook for postings of items that have been stolen so you can buy them back. Forget having the cops go and arrest the SOBs. They won't even bother. They will bother with giving tickets to innocent people standing on the beach, watching the moonrise. They will bother for all kinds of non violent and peaceful activities like growing the wrong plants without permits or forcing children to attend substandard government indoctrination centers...I mean schools...that the children hate.

If I was given a choice as to whether or not I would pay a security company for this kind of service, what choice should I make? 

To"serve and protect" as a motto is a joke as far as the taxpayer is concerned. However, it does apply to those who hold power. Cops pretty much always show up to pepper spray, Billy club, and/or bully people who dissent with the policies of the oligarchy. In fact, I think "to serve and protect power" is the real motto of LEOs. As was mentioned above, there was no Golden Age for cops. They've always been the uniformed goons for the powerful. Pushback from the public has caused them to adjust their behavior over time.

The ultimate pushback from the public is when the public finally get sick of being extorted for this "service", stop paying, and hire their own more efficient private security forces.


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## Tgace (Oct 20, 2013)

Lets see..off the top of my head I can remember:

-Stopping a man from slashing his throat.
-Catching 3 armed robbers after lengthly car chase.
-Catching several people over the years breaking into vehicles while the owners slept and returned their property to them.
-Stopping a man with a gun who was on the way to kill his daughter in law. Used on star to find his truck...that was interesting.
-Holding a mans head up in a wrecked car to assist his breathing as he was dying while waiting for EMS to respond to cut him out.

Not to mention the numerous calls for suicides and dead bodies...the people I've arrested for abusing their domestic partners/family members. Stolen cars recovered, foot chases, car chases of armed bank robbers...jumping into a storm drain to rescue ducklings, returning escaped dogs. HELL, Ive forgotten more things than I can remember at this point.

If that doesn't count as some form of service to my community than I don't know what the definition is.

Most peoples "research" about what we do is a steaming pile of personal opinionated ****.



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## ballen0351 (Oct 20, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> *
> The ultimate pushback from the public is when the public finally get sick of being extorted for this "service", stop paying, and hire their own more efficient private security forces.


Oh boy I can't wait for that to happen.  Ill be first in line.  I bet they pay better have better working conditions and better benefits.  I bet private sector won't make me work 12 hour midnight shift have 9 am and 1 pm court and come back in for another 12 hour midnight shift.  Hey can you make this happen faster.


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## Makalakumu (Oct 20, 2013)

I'm a wilderness first responder, a life guard, and CPR/first aid certified. 

I've saved seven lives in the water? I've administered life saving first aid twice in non aquatic situations. I've performed three extractions from wilderness areas for life threatening situations.

Here are a dozen lives saved for free and I was never "on duty" it was just a matter of being in the right place at the right time with the right training.

All for free.

All communities need is people with the right kind of training, a community minded spirit, and a legal system that actually protects people for helping others, we suddenly lose the need to have the majority of the police hired in the US. 

High crime areas will need special businesses that compete based off of their results in actually affecting crime rates. I suspect that these businesses will look very different than modern government policing. 

I think that serving and protecting is a rational and logical civic duty and we truly shouldn't need to pay people for this unless there is a major problem. The reason why the government takes our money to pay for modern LEOs is to enforce non-violent and peaceful "crimes" in order to meet budget demands and to serve the needs of power. 

Cops obey orders and are replaced by those who obey orders.


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## Makalakumu (Oct 20, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> Oh boy I can't wait for that to happen.  Ill be first in line.  I bet they pay better have better working conditions and better benefits.  I bet private sector won't make me work 12 hour midnight shift have 9 am and 1 pm court and come back in for another 12 hour midnight shift.  Hey can you make this happen faster.



Yeah, imagine if you didn't have to violate people's property rights and enforce laws on non-violent/peaceful "crimes" all day? In a free market, no one would pay for that? In a free market system, you probably wouldn't get paid at all. Helping keep people safe would just be an expectation. You'd have to do something productive instead.


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## ballen0351 (Oct 20, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> I'm a wilderness first responder, a life guard, and CPR/first aid certified.
> 
> I've saved seven lives in the water? I've administered life saving first aid twice in non aquatic situations. I've performed three extractions from wilderness areas for life threatening situations.
> 
> ...


good for you what kinda cookie do you want my treat


> All communities need is people with the right kind of training, a community minded spirit, and a legal system that actually protects people for helping others, we suddenly lose the need to have the majority of the police hired in the US.
> 
> High crime areas will need special businesses that compete based off of their results in actually affecting crime rates. I suspect that these businesses will look very different than modern government policing.


high crime areas are also mostly poor so whos going to pay for this business?  the poor?  the criminals?  the govt? 
look at the outrage when that fire department let that house burn because the home owner never paid for fire service.  whats going to happen when someone didnt pay their police bill and they are the victim of a crime? Whos going to pay for rape kits and DNA testing for rapes the victim? 


> I think that serving and protecting is a rational and logical civic duty and we truly shouldn't need to pay people for this unless there is a major problem.


dude have you been out in the real world lately?  My partner killed a guy few weeks ago as he was stabbing his babys mother to death.  She tried to get into 3 houses for safety and nobody would help her or even open the door.  We got there within 3 1/2 mins and shot the guy 6 times he was still able to stab her 3 times after being shot before he died.  People dont help people anymore.  


> The reason why the government takes our money to pay for modern LEOs is to enforce non-violent and peaceful "crimes" in order to meet budget demands and to serve the needs of power.


Really?  It couldnt possibly be that these laws are laws that society asked for and wanted put in place to make society a better place.


> Cops obey orders and are replaced by those who obey orders.


Ill tell you same thing I tell everyone that says they are going to have my job.  I was looking for a job when I found this one.  I can look for a job until I find my next one.


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## ballen0351 (Oct 20, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> Yeah, imagine if you didn't have to violate people's property rights and enforce laws on non-violent/peaceful "crimes" all day? In a free market, no one would pay for that? In a free market system, you probably wouldn't get paid at all. Helping keep people safe would just be an expectation.


So we get rid of cops and crime goes away and everyone will behave?



> You'd have to do something productive instead.


Yeah Someday I hope to be productive member of society lol


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## Tgace (Oct 20, 2013)

His lack of understanding and knowledge of what it takes to bring a case to court....let alone all the various LE specialist roles like detectives, pilots, evidence processors...only add to the bull **** smell.

Nevermind issues like vehicles, weapons, ongoing training. Firemen and part time lifeguards can be volunteers because fires and drowning people don't call them for help hundreds of times in a day.

He doesn't know jack **** about what hes talking about. 

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## Tgace (Oct 20, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> Really?  It couldnt possibly be that these laws are laws that society asked for and wanted put in place to make society a better place.



The elephant in the room people like him never confront.

Do you think I find most drug dealers on my own? 

Ill forward Maku my phone messages for the week and let him talk to all the people complaining about the drug use on their streets. 

Are they not due my best effort to address their complaints? 

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## arnisador (Oct 20, 2013)

Private security is just a matter of whose mafia is bigger, badder, and more brutal in this context.



ballen0351 said:


> Really?  It couldnt possibly be that these laws are laws that society asked for and wanted put in place to make society a better place.



But criminals don't obey laws, so it's pointless--or so I have frequently been told here.


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## ballen0351 (Oct 20, 2013)

arnisador said:


> But criminals don't obey laws, so it's pointless--or so I have frequently been told here.


Which is why we enforce the laws.  Because criminals dont obey them


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## Tgace (Oct 20, 2013)

arnisador said:


> Private security is just a matter of whose mafia is bigger, badder, and more brutal in this context.



For all the "cops trample rights" hype, what we would have if the "citizen volunteer" got to patrol the streets would blow your mind.

The stories I could tell about what people want me to do to stop the drug dealer across the street or what they think I should do without a warrant would blow your mind...when it comes to THEIR problems the Constitution means nothing. That's why lynch mobs used to form.

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## ballen0351 (Oct 20, 2013)

Tgace said:


> For all the "cops trample rights" hype, what we would have if the "citizen volunteer" got to patrol the streets would blow your mind.
> 
> The stories I could tell about what people want me to do to stop the drug dealer across the street or what they think I should do without a warrant would blow your mind...when it comes to THEIR problems the Constitution means nothing. That's why lynch mobs used to form.
> 
> Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2


Aint that the truth...."officer my neighbor stole my ________  go get it"  Ok Ma'am did you see them?  "No I just know it was them go look in there house"  Well I cant do that.  "what do you mean you cant they stole my property go get it back.  "ma'am do you have proof they stole it?  "no just go look in his bedroom I bet its there"  Ma'am I cant go in their house like that.  "Do your F$%$^% Job and go get my property"  Ma'Am I cant just walk in his house.  Ill go talk to them.  
Ok ma'am I asked for permission to go in his hous he said no.  "This is BS you lazy POS cop do your damn job and get me back my property"

Yep been there a few times.


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## ballen0351 (Oct 20, 2013)

And dont get me started on how many bouncers have assaulted and violated peoples rights.


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## Tgace (Oct 20, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> Aint that the truth...."officer my neighbor stole my ________  go get it"  Ok Ma'am did you see them?  "No I just know it was them go look in there house"  Well I cant do that.  "what do you mean you cant they stole my property go get it back.  "ma'am do you have proof they stole it?  "no just go look in his bedroom I bet its there"  Ma'am I cant go in their house like that.  "Do your F$%$^% Job and go get my property"  Ma'Am I cant just walk in his house.  Ill go talk to them.
> Ok ma'am I asked for permission to go in his hous he said no.  "This is BS you lazy POS cop do your damn job and get me back my property"
> 
> Yep been there a few times.



Amen...people may not believe it, may not want to believe it, and YES some of our brethren do us no favors sometimes....but we actually guard peoples rights from situations like this more than people realize.

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## Makalakumu (Oct 21, 2013)

According to the statistics, if you are victim of violent crime in this country, the perp is going to get off. According to statistics, if someone steals your property, they are going to get away. In an emergency, it's going to take at least ten minutes for the cops to show up even if they are in the vicinity. By these major metrics, I think it's safe to say that government funded policing simply isn't very effective.

A solution is for people to help each other more, to take care of each other better, to know more about self protection and basic emergency care. I realize that this seems like loony toons to most people, but when you consider all of the arcane stuff that is found in most of the government schooling standards, you'd probably question that. Imagine if students all had to get basic first aid and CPR instead of taking algebra 2? How about some community safety courses instead of the social studies garbage where they teach you about how Columbus was so great? 

There is no easy solution here, but it should also be recognized that more cops or more money for cops or more gear or more power for cops isn't a solution either. It's not working.


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## ballen0351 (Oct 21, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> According to the statistics, if you are victim of violent crime in this country, the perp is going to get off.
> According to statistics, if someone steals your property, they are going to get away. In an emergency, it's going to take at least ten minutes for the cops to show up even if they are in the vicinity. By these major metrics, I think it's safe to say that government funded policing simply isn't very effective.


Depends on where you live.  Our average responce time last year to 911 calls was around 4 mins.  We solved 90% of all our homicides and serious assaults, and sex offenses.  

Since you seem to have all the answers a typical property crime here is You leave you car unlocked and your GPS in the window.  Some guy walks buy opens your door grabs the GPS and walks away.  You get up in the morning and see its gone but your late for work so you go to work.  Come home 10 hours later and report your GPS is stolen.  So you tell me how to solve that?


> A solution is for people to help each other more,


Good luck with that.  How do you force people to care?


> to take care of each other better, to know more about self protection and basic emergency care. I realize that this seems like loony toons to most people, but when you consider all of the arcane stuff that is found in most of the government schooling standards, you'd probably question that. Imagine if students all had to get basic first aid and CPR instead of taking algebra 2? How about some community safety courses instead of the social studies garbage where they teach you about how Columbus was so great?


dude have you been reading anything about our schools?  They suspend you for eating a pop tart wrong.  


> There is no easy solution here, but it should also be recognized that more cops or more money for cops or more gear or more power for cops isn't a solution either. It's not working.


So change it.  Lead the charge stop crying about your lack of power and do something.  But you would rather blow smoke about some dream land where people love each other and care and crime goes away and cry on the internet about mean old cops.


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## Instructor (Oct 21, 2013)

I just want to say from the bottom of my heart thank you to all members of the law enforcement community.  It's dangerous and often unappreciated work.  You have always been there for me when I called and have occasionally reminded me that if I didn't slow my car down I could kill somebody.

Once I was able to subdue an attacker but ended up in a stalemate with the attacker pinned.  You police came and restrained said attacker and took them away so they couldn't hurt me or my family anymore.

While I think many state and federal programs are complete hogwash I have always believed that a strong and above all professional police department is one of the key's to our society.  I realize that you can't be everywhere all the time but I know that in my life when I called, you came.

Thanks for doing what you do.

Jon


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## bushidomartialarts (Oct 21, 2013)

I'd throw this bone into the conversation.

_Yes _modern US police are more professional, more highly trained than ever before. And they're under more scrutiny by internal and external oversight to eliminate the kind of violence and corruption that was more common in past decades. 

*but...

*Community policing is rarer now than before (though some cities have been bringing it back in the past 10 years or so). What used to be a cop or three who patrolled a given neighborhood and knew all the business owners and most of the residents is now cars that cruise by without making those positive interactions that made us all feel like we were on the same team. In most of the US, the police feel more like an occupying army than a part of the community. That's not the fault of the police, who for the most part are good guys doing their best in a ****** situation with insufficient funds and barely sufficient training. But it is a factor in this conversation.

It's also true that the law doesn't serve the average citizen anymore. If you're in the bottom 75% of US income, you don't really have meaningful effect on which laws get passed and can't afford a lawyer big enough to protect your rights. Plus there's the whole YouTube thing where everybody gets to see the bad apples being bad, but nobody bothers to post a recording of a cop showing up and saving the damn day, or just being nice to a kid or grandmother. 


Again, this isn't the cops' fault. Cops aren't worse now than in the past...but _yeah_, the relationship between the cops and the civilians is pretty bad. Not the cops' fault (except at a high-level policy level the beat police have nothing to do with), not really the citizens' either. Just a sad state of affairs with no clear answer.


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## Makalakumu (Oct 21, 2013)

Instructor said:


> I just want to say from the bottom of my heart thank you to all members of the law enforcement community.  It's dangerous and often unappreciated work.  You have always been there for me when I called and have occasionally reminded me that if I didn't slow my car down I could kill somebody.
> 
> Once I was able to subdue an attacker but ended up in a stalemate with the attacker pinned.  You police came and restrained said attacker and took them away so they couldn't hurt me or my family anymore.
> 
> ...



One thing to consider here is a common argument against socialism. It's the idea that it leads to an entitlement mentality because the government is expected to provide a service and this removes responsibility from the individual.  People always apply this welfare and education when discussing public vs private debate. I think this could also apply to public safety. People are more careless, more selfish, and more lazy when it comes to community and protection because they just expect the cops to do it. In fact, the mentality is so bad that most people simply think that all they need to do is pass a law and some kind of problem they don't like will suddenly be fixed. 

This is why it's so important for people to understand how ineffective all of this really is. Government policing is just like any other government program in that regard. It cannot accomplish all of the things it's supposed to accomplish. The bottom line is that socialism just doesn't work very well and this applies to the socialized cops as well.


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## Makalakumu (Oct 21, 2013)

arnisador said:


> Private security is just a matter of whose mafia is bigger, badder, and more brutal in this context.



http://www.salon.com/2011/10/07/the_nypd_now_sponsored_by_wall_street/



> [h=2]Financial firms have given millions of dollars to the department, raising the ire of Occupy Wall St. protesters[/h]





I think you really need to take a look at what is actually happening in the US, because the police are essentially transforming themselves into the same kind of thugs you'd find in Mexico.  They are government employees who take money and enforce the "wishes" of the bigger, badder, and more brutal mafias.  This isn't happening everywhere, but I'm afraid it will just become more and more common until people make the fundamental connection that governments are actually easier to corrupt and harder to change than private industry.  

This is the behavior that the Wall Street Banksters bought.







"The nail that sticks up, get's hammered down." Japanese Proverb.  Student meets the hammer.


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## ballen0351 (Oct 21, 2013)

Heres the thing.  There are no Stats to prove how much crime we prevent. Joe Dirts walking down the street planning to rob someone.  I ride by see Joe Dirt acting suspicious.  I stop and ask Joe Dirt what hes up too.  He says nothing and walks home because he knows I noticed him so he doesnt rob anyone.  There are no stats for the Drunk Driver that didnt kill a family because I stopped him first.  There are no stats for crimes that dont happen by our mere presence.


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## Makalakumu (Oct 21, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> Heres the thing.  There are no Stats to prove how much crime we prevent. Joe Dirts walking down the street planning to rob someone.  I ride by see Joe Dirt acting suspicious.  I stop and ask Joe Dirt what hes up too.  He says nothing and walks home because he knows I noticed him so he doesnt rob anyone.  There are no stats for the Drunk Driver that didnt kill a family because I stopped him first.  There are no stats for crimes that dont happen by our mere presence.



True, but I still don't think the government police could ever compete with this when it comes to crime prevention.

http://thelibertarianrepublic.com/r...nge-burglar-shotgun-hand-video/#axzz2iJfeh2rr



> *Gilbert Nunez* had already burglarized *Paul Cavazo&#8217;*s condo twice before, and was getting ready to make the third time a charm when this time his luck ran out. Cavazo pulled his trusty sidekick, a .12 gauge shotgun out and pointed the business end at Nunez telling him to drop the TV and kiss the grass. Security camera footage shows a very compliant Nunez laying down after looking down that cold, black barrel. &#8217;I grabbed my shotgun. You know, I&#8217;ve been thinking about this for a long time,&#8217; Cavazo said.
> The thief had been making the rounds in the neighborhood and robbed many of the neighbors as well. The entire event was captured on surveillance camera provided by KSAT12



It's astounding that this taxpayer has to have money taken through taxation to "pay" for "protection" from government police who can do nothing to actually stop the crime in his neighborhood.  The only thing that actually stopped this problem was when the homeowner reclaimed his responsibility for protection of his property and decided to not wait around for the government to solve his problem.


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## arnisador (Oct 21, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> Heres the thing.  There are no Stats to prove how much crime we prevent. Joe Dirts walking down the street planning to rob someone.  I ride by see Joe Dirt acting suspicious.  I stop and ask Joe Dirt what hes up too.  He says nothing and walks home because he knows I noticed him so he doesnt rob anyone.  There are no stats for the Drunk Driver that didnt kill a family because I stopped him first.  There are no stats for crimes that dont happen by our mere presence.



Surely you can get some measure of this by looking at police per capita and crime rates.


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## ballen0351 (Oct 21, 2013)

arnisador said:


> Surely you can get some measure of this by looking at police per capita and crime rates.


I dont know because geographic location and economic make up of communities make up a big part of crime numbers.  2 small towns I worked in when I first started police work.  They are 12 miles apart, both about the same size and same population.  Same size police depts as well. Only difference is one is poor and the other was above average income

The wealthy city from 2000-2010 crime stats
size 7.2 sq miles population 14096
avg household income $56,876
Homicide -4
Rapes-58
Burglaries- 1058
Robberies- 190
Assaults-565


the poor city
size 8.4 sq miles population 12876
avg household income $34,412
Homicides-11 
Rapes- 60
Burglaries-1469
Robberies- 296
Assaults- 1024

I know for a fact the poor city alters its crime stat numbers to make them lower and under reports them.


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## ballen0351 (Oct 21, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> True, but I still don't think the government police could ever compete with this when it comes to crime prevention.
> 
> http://thelibertarianrepublic.com/r...nge-burglar-shotgun-hand-video/#axzz2iJfeh2rr
> 
> ...


your right who needs the Police lets get rid of them all  that will make the world a much better place:duh:
you should run for office on that platform

PS Ive personally stopped more burglaries then 1 myself


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## ballen0351 (Oct 21, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> True, but I still don't think the government police could ever compete with this when it comes to crime prevention.
> 
> http://thelibertarianrepublic.com/r...nge-burglar-shotgun-hand-video/#axzz2iJfeh2rr
> 
> ...



By the way what happens n your world after you catch these bad guys?  Since you dont want cops involved what do we do with them? I know what Mr Cavazo did in your story did he called the police.  But what do you Do?


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## Tgace (Oct 21, 2013)




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## Makalakumu (Oct 21, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> By the way what happens n your world after you catch these bad guys?  Since you dont want cops involved what do we do with them? I know what Mr Cavazo did in your story did he called the police.  But what do you Do?



Call the privatized Local police who will be catching hell for not serving me better as a customer. If me and my neighbors keep getting victimized, we'll cancel our contracts and pay a competitor.


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## Makalakumu (Oct 21, 2013)

Tgace said:


>



Welcome to the type of arguments government school graduates produce! Lol!


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## ballen0351 (Oct 21, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> Call the privatized Local police who will be catching hell for not serving me better as a customer. If me and my neighbors keep getting victimized, we'll cancel our contracts and pay a competitor.


so who pays for local private police?


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## Makalakumu (Oct 21, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> so who pays for local private police?



People who want their business.


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## ballen0351 (Oct 21, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> People who want their business.


And if you dont pay or forget to pay this month and your a victim of a serious crime?  What if your out of town on vacation in another state and have never paid that police force?


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## Tgace (Oct 21, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> And if you dont pay or forget to pay this month and your a victim of a serious crime?  What if your out of town on vacation in another state and have never paid that police force?



This is loony Ron Paul style libertarianism Balen....it's impossible to impliment, impossible to manage and never really intended to be presented as a realistic solution as much as its used as a platform to rant about the current system and spout bizarre ideologies.

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## Makalakumu (Oct 21, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> And if you dont pay or forget to pay this month and your a victim of a serious crime?  What if your out of town on vacation in another state and have never paid that police force?



Why would you forget to pay something so important?


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## Makalakumu (Oct 21, 2013)

Tgace said:


> This is loony Ron Paul style libertarianism Balen....it's impossible to impliment, impossible to manage and never really intended to be presented as a realistic solution as much as its used as a platform to rant about the current system and spout bizarre ideologies.
> 
> Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2



It's actually easy to implement, because we do it in so many other areas of our life. It's as simple as purchasing any other service that is competing for your dollars.

Bottom line.

It's loony to think that government can solve complex social problems, especially when the evidence is so overwhelming showing that it can't.


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## ballen0351 (Oct 21, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> Why would you forget to pay something so important?


People dont pay bills all the time.  So whats the answer?  What about people from out of town?


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## ballen0351 (Oct 21, 2013)

Tgace said:


> This is loony Ron Paul style libertarianism Balen....it's impossible to impliment, impossible to manage and never really intended to be presented as a realistic solution as much as its used as a platform to rant about the current system and spout bizarre ideologies.
> 
> Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2


Thing that makes me laugh is who does he think private security calls when they are in trouble? 3 of our housing projects have private armed security and they are always calling us to come save them.  Anyone that thinks this is a good idea has never been in the projects right after a shooting with victim and suspects family members fighting and screaming and going out of control.


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## ballen0351 (Oct 22, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> It's actually easy to implement, because we do it in so many other areas of our life. It's as simple as purchasing any other service that is competing for your dollars.
> 
> Bottom line.
> 
> It's loony to think that government can solve complex social problems, especially when the evidence is so overwhelming showing that it can't.


except you keep refusing to answer what happens to victims that didnt pay.  
You also have no answer to how a private police force will solve more crime then what we have now?  Do you not think we try to solve crimes now?  Do you not think that if this would happen the same guy in that patrol car tonight will be the same guy in that new private police car?  So tell me what will be done different?


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## Makalakumu (Oct 22, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> Thing that makes me laugh is who does he think private security calls when they are in trouble? 3 of our housing projects have private armed security and they are always calling us to come save them.  Anyone that thinks this is a good idea has never been in the projects right after a shooting with victim and suspects family members fighting and screaming and going out of control.



Everything that happens in the ghetto was created by government. The family was destroyed by government policy, the kids are mis-educated because of government policy. The safety of the community is being handled by government. It's no wonder this is one of the most disfunctional of our society. You can't point at problems that government caused and then cry about how you need more government to fix them! That makes you sound like a Democrat! Lol!


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## ballen0351 (Oct 22, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> Everything that happens in the ghetto was created by government. The family was destroyed by government policy, the kids are mis-educated because of government policy. The safety of the community is being handled by government. It's no wonder this is one of the most disfunctional of our society. You can't point at problems that government caused and then cry about how you need more government to fix them! That makes you sound like a Democrat! Lol!


Oh so now your plan is to get rid of police, fix the family, end poverty and ghettos, fix our education, make people care about eachother, stop crime.  Damn your a busy guy.


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## ballen0351 (Oct 22, 2013)

Im still waiting to hear what happens to victims that didnt or couldnt pay for private police


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## Makalakumu (Oct 22, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> except you keep refusing to answer what happens to victims that didnt pay.
> You also have no answer to how a private police force will solve more crime then what we have now?  Do you not think we try to solve crimes now?  Do you not think that if this would happen the same guy in that patrol car tonight will be the same guy in that new private police car?  So tell me what will be done different?



Statistics show that most people get away with crimes, so stop claiming that police are actually successful at this. You can't even compare what we have now to what the free market would create, because the government has screwed everything up so badly. 

Off the top of my head, I think private security forces probably wouldn't enforce most of the "laws" that exist. They just aren't worth the return in investment for the people who would have to pay for them. Take drug use for example. It will cost way to much for a community to root this out because of the truly draconian measures it would take to handle something like this. And then there would be the insurance costs, if a private police force home invaded the wrong house with a SWAT type team, they would probably be used out of business by the property owner. So, these "crimes" simply won't exist. This will help the private security forces focus more on real violence and property protection. Combine the reduced time demands for enforcement of non-crimes with the latest technology and you actually start seeing reductions in these things. Who is going to steal a piece of property when it has a tracking device that allows property protection specialists to track it down no matter where it is?

 As far as a person not being able to pay, you aren't asking the right questions. Why aren't they able to pay? I can think of a dozen answers for this and a dozen easy solutions that already present themselves somewhere in markets. For example, I could see a lot of businesses offering a portion of their services for charity. If some family was having financial struggles, they could work out a deal with the company for a reduced rate or no rate while they get back on their feet.


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## Makalakumu (Oct 22, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> Oh so now your plan is to get rid of police, fix the family, end poverty and ghettos, fix our education, make people care about eachother, stop crime.  Damn your a busy guy.



Lol. Same answer for all of those. Stop having the government try to do it.


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## Makalakumu (Oct 22, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> Im still waiting to hear what happens to victims that didnt or couldnt pay for private police



Again, you aren't asking the right question. Why aren't the people able to pay?


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## ballen0351 (Oct 22, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> Statistics show that most people get away with crimes, so stop claiming that police are actually successful at this. You can't even compare what we have now to what the free market would create, because the government has screwed everything up so badly.


So you have no answer to how they can do a better job solving crimes.  Got it


> Off the top of my head, I think private security forces probably wouldn't enforce most of the "laws" that exist. They just aren't worth the return in investment for the people who would have to pay for them. Take drug use for example. It will cost way to much for a community to root this out because of the truly draconian measures it would take to handle something like this. And then there would be the insurance costs, if a private police force home invaded the wrong house with a SWAT type team, they would probably be used out of business by the property owner. So, these "crimes" simply won't exist. This will help the private security forces focus more on real violence and property protection.


So we just toss the Constitution huh?  Since the Constitution allows congress to pass laws we need to toss it so we only enforce laws you like?  Screw what society wants.  I had 2 calls so far tonight about people calling in complaints about the odor of Marijuana coming from neighboring apartments demanding we do something about it.  But hey screw society right and all these silly rules.


> Combine the reduced time demands for enforcement of non-crimes with the latest technology and you actually start seeing reductions in these things. Who is going to steal a piece of property when it has a tracking device that allows property protection specialists to track it down no matter where it is?


So you think people are going to willingly allow you to place tracking devices in everything they own?  Yeah that will go over well.  So what happnes if I cant afford a tracking device or dont want one?


> As far as a person not being able to pay, you aren't asking the right questions. Why aren't they able to pay? I can think of a dozen answers for this and a dozen easy solutions that already present themselves somewhere in markets. For example, I could see a lot of businesses offering a portion of their services for charity. If some family was having financial struggles, they could work out a deal with the company for a reduced rate or no rate while they get back on their feet.


So you have no answer.  So I get fired from my job and my wife gets raped.  You think some private company is going to foot the bill of that investigation?  DNA tests, medical tests, evidence collection, investigation, and Trial costs? yeah ok
What about people thay dont live in your town?  People from europe here on vacation? what if they are a victim?  We just say oh well so sorry?


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## ballen0351 (Oct 22, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> Lol. Same answer for all of those. Stop having the government try to do it.


Govt isnt trying to fix anything.  Some things just are what they are.  Ghettos exist they are what they are.  They existed long before Govts started funding them.  We will always have poor and really poor.  We will always have broken homes, abused kids, mentally ill, ect.


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## Makalakumu (Oct 22, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> So you have no answer to how they can do a better job solving crimes.  Got it
> 
> So we just toss the Constitution huh?  Since the Constitution allows congress to pass laws we need to toss it so we only enforce laws you like?  Screw what society wants.  I had 2 calls so far tonight about people calling in complaints about the odor of Marijuana coming from neighboring apartments demanding we do something about it.  But hey screw society right and all these silly rules.
> 
> ...



I've given you a couple of answers on how it could be done and have provided context. I've even clarified your vague questions. 

Here I'll run down your points again.

1. Toss the Constitution? The government did that already. No need to wait for private business to do it. What I am saying is that private business would actually be more responsible for your rights if that is what you wanted as a consumer.

2. In a free society where people have to directly pay for the things they want and government isn't a solution to everyone's problem, marijuana is simply not going to register on people's radar screens. So what if you don't like it. Mind your own business if you aren't being aggressed against.

3. Yes, people would glad put tracking devices in items that are worth it. I love the app that allows me to find the iPad after my kids lose it. This simple thing could be used by a private security company to solve crimes at a far greater rate than they are solved by police now. If you don't like that, hire a different company that doesn't do that. It's that simple.

4. You would pay insurance against violent crimes in a free society. The insurance company would hire a private investigator to do whatever tests they needed to do. The private investigator would have financial incentive to actually solve this crime, because his reputation is on the line. Depending how medical information is shared, they might even be able to search a voluntary database for the perp. People would enter their DNA for a cheaper rate on violence insurance. Who knows how many creative ways this problem could be solved, the point is that all of them would be better than what we have now.

5. Same thing would apply if you travel. You'd by travelers insurance and this insurance would be adjusted to the current crime rates for the place you are going. 

Dude, the market wins every time. Compare any service that the government provides to what is provided by the market, the government always sucks.


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## Makalakumu (Oct 22, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> Govt isnt trying to fix anything.  Some things just are what they are.  Ghettos exist they are what they are.  They existed long before Govts started funding them.  We will always have poor and really poor.  We will always have broken homes, abused kids, mentally ill, ect.



Really? The government doesn't try to fix anything? Ever hear about The War on Drugs? The War on Poverty? The War on Terror? No Child Left Behind?

All of those have contributed to actually make those problems worse. Without the government, those problems actually start to get better. People lose the entitlement mentality and suddenly must take responsibility for themselves. This is the idea that supposedly founded this country...if you believe the hype.


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## ballen0351 (Oct 22, 2013)

Funny thing is your arguing against yourself.  Your cry that the police are pawns of big business.  Your Solution?  Cut out the middle man and allow Big Govt to be the police  
Yeah you thought that one out huh


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## ballen0351 (Oct 22, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> I've given you a couple of answers on how it could be done and have provided context. I've even clarified your vague questions.
> 
> Here I'll run down your points again.
> 
> 1. Toss the Constitution? The government did that already. No need to wait for private business to do it. What I am saying is that private business would actually be more responsible for your rights if that is what you wanted as a consumer.


And your wrong.  Private Business is only worried about making money not protecting rights.  


> 2. In a free society where people have to directly pay for the things they want and government isn't a solution to everyone's problem, marijuana is simply not going to register on people's radar screens. So what if you don't like it. Mind your own business if you aren't being aggressed against.


Wrong again Private police will try even harder to enforce drug laws because its free money.  Drug units are normally fully self funded with seized assets.  2nd if You can smell it in your apartment then you are being aggressed against.  That call I had this evening that entire upper floor reeked of Marijuana.  Id be pissed too If I lived there.  


> 3. Yes, people would glad put tracking devices in items that are worth it. I love the app that allows me to find the iPad after my kids lose it. This simple thing could be used by a private security company to solve crimes at a far greater rate than they are solved by police now. If you don't like that, hire a different company that doesn't do that. It's that simple.


Wow so now when you need police you need to figure out which company to call and which company responds?  So I work for a private police force and I walk up on some dude getting his butt kicked.  I then need to stop the fight find out if the victim was a client of mine or another service.  If hes not our client do I then tell the guy oh well sorry about your luck heres my card you should switch.  OK MR attacker carry on hes not our client.  Great system.
As to tracking devices good luck with that as soon as the NSA taps into them and starts tracking everyone people will freak out.


> 4. You would pay insurance against violent crimes in a free society. The insurance company would hire a private investigator to do whatever tests they needed to do. The private investigator would have financial incentive to actually solve this crime, because his reputation is on the line. Depending how medical information is shared, they might even be able to search a voluntary database for the perp. People would enter their DNA for a cheaper rate on violence insurance. Who knows how many creative ways this problem could be solved, the point is that all of them would be better than what we have now.


Dude what rapist would enter his DNA into a Data base?  And now I need to buy victim insurance, and pay for police protection?  And again if Im poor and cant afford it?  Then what?  You still have not answered that other then well maybe someone will do it for free 


> 5. Same thing would apply if you travel. You'd by travelers insurance and this insurance would be adjusted to the current crime rates for the place you are going.


So now I need, victim insurance, pay for police protection , and travel insurance?  And this is supposed to cost us less?


> Dude, the market wins every time. Compare any service that the government provides to what is provided by the market, the government always sucks.


Tell that to the Marine Corps


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## Makalakumu (Oct 22, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> Funny thing is your arguing against yourself.  Your cry that the police are pawns of big business.  Your Solution?  Cut out the middle man and allow Big Govt to be the police
> Yeah you thought that one out huh



I think you meant big business? Not big government. Either way, that's what exists now. Government Cops are the unwitting pawns of whoever holds the reins of power. There are so many laws that only exist because some big fat cat was trying to protect his interest against some competitor.

In a free market, corporations could not use government to make monopolies. They would not be able to fend of competitors and would have to remain smaller and nimbler to survive. There would be no goon squads like we have now, because the money and power to support them wouldn't exist. 

Instead, what we'd have are local private security forces who specialize in fighting crimes that really matter. We'd have a population that could buy any arm they wanted and would be willing to train so they could pitch in if there ever was a real emergency. We'd have contracts and competition to protect our civil rights. And we'd have insurance that we could purchase to ward off against risk.

This insistence that some people have regarding the government and police is really loony if you consider it objectively.


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## Makalakumu (Oct 22, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> Tell that to the Marine Corps



It's getting late, so I'll play more in the morning. Regarding the Marines though, lol. The government is good at defense right?

19 People, mostly Saudis allegedly attacked us on 9/11 and this country invades every country but Saudi Arabia. Wow, did the government miss that target! Lol!

They are so good at defense!


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## ballen0351 (Oct 22, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> I think you meant big business? Not big government.


Correct thats what I was saying You complain about Big Business owning the police force so your solution is it let them own the police force.


> Either way, that's what exists now. Government Cops are the unwitting pawns of whoever holds the reins of power. There are so many laws that only exist because some big fat cat was trying to protect his interest against some competitor.


Really Im not sure Ive ever enforced copyright laws.  I have enforced Murders, Robbery, Rape, laws.  Who knew Murder was a Corp. plot


> In a free market, corporations could not use government to make monopolies. They would not be able to fend of competitors and would have to remain smaller and nimbler to survive. There would be no goon squads like we have now, because the money and power to support them wouldn't exist.


Hmmm where are these goon squads I hear about?


> Instead, what we'd have are local private security forces who specialize in fighting crimes that really matter. We'd have a population that could buy any arm they wanted and would be willing to train so they could pitch in if there ever was a real emergency. We'd have contracts and competition to protect our civil rights. And we'd have insurance that we could purchase to ward off against risk.



So now in an emergency I need to figure out what company I need to call, Hope Im up to date on my bill, Wait for the operator to verifiy my coverage, then send private help.  Yet THATS suppose to be faster and better then what we have now?


> This insistence that some people have regarding the government and police is really loony if you consider it objectively.


And your argument against Big Business controlling police by allowing Big Business to control police is really loony.


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## ballen0351 (Oct 22, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> It's getting late, so I'll play more in the morning. Regarding the Marines though, lol. The government is good at defense right?
> 
> 19 People, mostly Saudis allegedly attacked us on 9/11 and this country invades every country but Saudi Arabia. Wow, did the government miss that target! Lol!
> 
> They are so good at defense!


So a Private Military would have done it differently?  Marine Corps didnt draft the policy they just go where they are told.


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## Tgace (Oct 22, 2013)




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## Makalakumu (Oct 28, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> So you have no answer to how they (a private police force) can do a better job solving crimes.  Got it.


 
Found something you might be interested in learning more about.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...ee-Market-can-do-better?p=1605058#post1605058


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## arnisador (Oct 28, 2013)

Blackwater put a private army in the Mid-east...


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## Makalakumu (Oct 28, 2013)

arnisador said:


> Blackwater put a private army in the Mid-east...



The US Government put Blackwater in the ME. Huge difference.


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## pgsmith (Oct 29, 2013)

I'm sorry, but "Protect and Serve" sounds like a coalition of bodyguard waiters.


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## arnisador (Oct 29, 2013)

I'd watch that film!


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## grumpywolfman (Oct 31, 2013)

Tgace said:


> After perusing a FB post full of "cop haters" (dunno why I bother) I was struck by all the comments about how cops are "worse these days" or how they don't "protect and serve" anymore....



What is your opinion on how policies such as NYPD's "Stop & Frisk" affect the public's feelings towards law enforcement officers?

[video=youtube_share;nGc505WuxpE]http://youtu.be/nGc505WuxpE[/video]


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## ballen0351 (Oct 31, 2013)

grumpywolfman said:


> What is your opinion on how policies such as NYPD's "Stop & Frisk" affect the public's feelings towards law enforcement officers?
> 
> [video=youtube_share;nGc505WuxpE]http://youtu.be/nGc505WuxpE[/video]



A federal appeals court on Thursday blocked a judge's order requiring changes to the New York Police Department's stop-and-frisk program and removed the judge from the case.

The 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals said the decisions of Judge Shira Scheindlin will be stayed pending the outcome of an appeal by the city.

The judge had ruled in August the city violated the Constitution in the way it carried out its program of stopping and questioning people.

The city appealed her findings and her remedial orders, including a decision to assign a monitor to help the police department changes its policy and training program associated with it.

The appeals court heard arguments Tuesday on the requested stay.

The appeals court said the judge needed to be removed from the case because she ran afoul of the code of conduct for U.S. judges by compromising the necessity for a judge to avoid the appearance of partiality in part because of a series of media interviews and public statements responding publicly to criticism of the court.

The judge had ruled that police officers violated the civil rights of tens of thousands of people by wrongly targeting black and Hispanic men with its stop-and-frisk program. She appointed an outside monitor to oversee major changes, including reforms in policies, training and supervision, and she ordered a pilot program to test body-worn cameras in some precincts where most stops occur.

The stop-and-frisk tactic has been criticized by a number of civil rights advocates
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/10/3...nyc-stop-and-frisk-program/?intcmp=latestnews


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## Tgace (Oct 31, 2013)

Color me confused...doesn't Terry v Ohio spell out the rules for stop and frisk?

If NYPD is violating Terry isn't the remedy suppression of any evidence found and possible civil rights violation lawsuits? This judge is exhibiting political activism instead of judgement of law IMO....

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2


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