# Speedy footwork (Boxing, Shotokan, TaeKwondo) vs stationary exchanges (Kickboxing, Kyokushin, MT).



## Acronym (Nov 25, 2020)

Having watched my fair share of KB and Muay Thai, it's evident that they don't have footwork in their vocabulary, with the exception of a few fighters like Saenchai who does everything his own way.

In other words they're pretty much stationary and just bang. This works fine in the ring but is it a a good cross-over for self defense compared to elusive fighting, with a little less bang but a lot less self preservation?

Common sense dictates that it's an awful way to defend yourself. You don't want to be stuck in the pocket in a street fight which tends to have unknown variables by definition.

What say you guys?


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## drop bear (Nov 26, 2020)

Sort of?


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## jobo (Nov 26, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Having watched my fair share of KB and Muay Thai, it's evident that they don't have footwork in their vocabulary, with the exception of a few fighters like Saenchai who does everything his own way.
> 
> In other words they're pretty much stationary and just bang. This works fine in the ring but is it a a good cross-over for self defense compared to elusive fighting, with a little less bang but a lot less self preservation?
> 
> ...


well ut depends, if you can bang hard enough often enough there is no need to evade, in fact why would you, knock them over, get on with your day,  fights tend to happen very quickly and all in

of course there no reason why these fighters cant be elusive if they wsnt to, its really not hard to keep out of range,


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 26, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Having watched my fair share of KB and Muay Thai, it's evident that they don't have footwork in their vocabulary, with the exception of a few fighters like Saenchai who does everything his own way.
> 
> In other words they're pretty much stationary and just bang. This works fine in the ring but is it a a good cross-over for self defense compared to elusive fighting, with a little less bang but a lot less self preservation?
> 
> ...


I don't think it's that clean cut.  There are benefits to being stationary and benefits to being elusive.  Self-defense uses a variety of tactics.  It's only when you are sports competition where elusive vs stationary becomes an either or measure.   In self-defense you will use the one that best suits the situation you find yourself in.


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## Acronym (Nov 26, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Sort of?



Then one has to say that TKD and Karate are underestimated and that people look to blindly into ring fighting


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## Acronym (Nov 26, 2020)

jobo said:


> of course there no reason why these fighters cant be elusive if they wsnt to, its really not hard to keep out of range,



It's not hard physically to do but if you grow accustomed to stand and bang, then that will be the range you are most psychologically comfortable in.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 26, 2020)

Acronym said:


> they don't have footwork in their vocabulary,


You may need to define footwork in more detail.

Does footwork mean that you

- know how to move around?
- can punch while your feet are moving (dynamic punch)?

In another thread, I asked a question,

Why do you use step, step, turn (body stop), and strike? Why don't you strike while you are moving?

In these clip, their punches are integrated within their footwork. Are we talking about this kind of footwork here?


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## jobo (Nov 26, 2020)

Acronym said:


> It's not hard physically to do but if you grow accustomed to stand and bang, then that will be the range you are most psychologically comfortable in.


then, attack, it is really the best form of defence


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## Acronym (Nov 26, 2020)

jobo said:


> then, attack, it is really the best form of defence



Plenty of people have taken your attitude and gotten a surprise stabbing in the stomach.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 26, 2020)

Acronym said:


> It's not hard physically to do but if you grow accustomed to stand and bang, then that will be the range you are most psychologically comfortable in.


Old MA saying said, "You may not find any opening to attack. As long as you keep moving, soon or later you will find some opening to attack". There is a good reason that many MA school start from footwork before stance, kick, and punch. 

In this clip, his punch coordinates with his leading foot landing, his power generation and footwork are integrated.


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## jobo (Nov 26, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Plenty of people have taken your attitude and gotten a surprise stabbing in the stomach.


and a lot more havent @so your point is dont fight you might get stabbed,ok fair enough, ypu run with that, il bang em


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## Acronym (Nov 26, 2020)

jobo said:


> and a lot more havent @so your point is dont fight you might get stabbed,ok fair enough, ypu run with that, il bang em



I didn't say don't fight them. I said don't stand and bang with them


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## jobo (Nov 26, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I didn't say don't fight them. I said don't stand and bang with them


you have to come in range at some point, if your going to fight them, then they can stab you, it makes no differeance


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## Oni_Kadaki (Nov 27, 2020)

jobo said:


> and a lot more havent @so your point is dont fight you might get stabbed,ok fair enough, ypu run with that, il bang em





Acronym said:


> I didn't say don't fight them. I said don't stand and bang with them



In my experience, standing and banging with someone usually requires great physical conditioning... I much prefer banging on a bed, a couch, or even a table.

Joking aside, on the point about stabbing and running, I'd argue that, if you can retreat, you usually should, and for exactly that reason. If you're on defense, your attacker is on offense because they believe they have an edge, be it physical strength, numbers (which you may not be aware of), and/or a weapon (which you also may not be aware of). Getting out of dodge eliminates all of these possibilities. That's why I save the martial arts for the rare situation where I cannot safely get away.


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## Acronym (Nov 27, 2020)

jobo said:


> you have to come in range at some point, if your going to fight them, then they can stab you, it makes no differeance



the longer range I have the less penetration it will have, and I wrote surprise, as in he pulls it out


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## _Simon_ (Nov 28, 2020)

Acronym said:


> the longer range I have the less penetration it will have, and I wrote surprise, as in he pulls it out


That's what she said.


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## jobo (Nov 28, 2020)

q


Acronym said:


> the longer range I have the less penetration it will have, and I wrote surprise, as in he pulls it out


there is only one 100% reliable defebce to a knife and thats to retreat faster than he is coming forwards, that works every time, provieded you have both the room and the speed to do that, turning to run against someone who can out sprint you over 50 yards will just see you stabbed in the back, playing tag with them is dosgy as evenually they will catch up with you .

peopke with knives are dangerous, people with kbives in their pocket a lit less so, treat any attacker as havibg a kbive in his pocket  and you a) wont be suprised and b) will see that the safest action is to take them out hard and fast,  whilst the knife is still in their pocket


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## wab25 (Nov 30, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Having watched my fair share of KB and Muay Thai, it's evident that they don't have footwork in their vocabulary,


They may not  have the same footwork as karate and TKD... but they certainly do have footwork. They spend a lot of time working on footwork.

A Beginner's Guide To Footwork And Guards In Muay Thai - Evolve Daily
Basic Muay Thai Footwork: Cutting Angles And Evading


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## drop bear (Dec 1, 2020)

jobo said:


> you have to come in range at some point, if your going to fight them, then they can stab you, it makes no differeance



Not really. You can mitigate risks with footwork. Rather than say standing and trading you can use space and counter striking which leaves you less in danger of getting stabbed because you are exposed for a smaller amount of time.


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## drop bear (Dec 1, 2020)

The footwork idea is explored in MMA  about it and has a lot of overlap for self defence. Basically the issue is that with the smaller gloves you stand a much greater risk of a stray shot putting you down. 

You are more like to get hit in an exchange and you are probably going to get hit harder. 

So quite often good MMA strikers are very footwork oriented. 

In self defense if you get put down or knocked out you are in a lot of trouble. So standing back and using footwork can be a bit safer.


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## jobo (Dec 1, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Not really. You can mitigate risks with footwork. Rather than say standing and trading you can use space and counter striking which leaves you less in danger of getting stabbed because you are exposed for a smaller amount of time.


it takes half second to stab someone, if your exsposed for half a,second then the risk of being stabbed is exactly the same,

we are of course talking here about people who may or may not have a knife,  if they have no kbife the risk is zero, if they have a kbife in their pocket and it stays there the risk is zero,, the longer you evade the greater the chance they will extract the kbife from their pocket, 

so evadibg massivly ibcreases the chance of being stabbed


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## Tony Dismukes (Dec 1, 2020)

Saenchai isn't the only Muay Thai fighter with good footwork. My favorite is probably Lerdsila:





You are correct that traditionally most MT fighters have tended to use more minimal footwork (not truly stationary, though). As far as crossover to a self-defense context, it depends on the situation. Definitely when weapons are involved I would favor more active footwork.


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## Alan0354 (Jun 5, 2021)

Acronym said:


> Having watched my fair share of KB and Muay Thai, it's evident that they don't have footwork in their vocabulary...............


I am surprised you said that. I learn Tae Kwon Do for a few years, we use all Kick Boxing type of footwork. Tae Kwon Do footwork is useless, big deep horse stand stepping back and fore, it's totally useless in real fight. I loved my school at the time because we don't practice traditional TKD or Karate footwork and instead more practical footwork.

To me footwork is everything, you add punches and kicks into footwork, but it all start out with footwork. I am learning cane fight, I ADD the cane striking to the footwork, not the other way around.

One thing I do worry, real self defense fight is not like in the ring where the floor is flat and nothing to trip you over. In real fight, there likely to have obstacles on the floor around you( chairs, stairs etc.). You might be forced to stay put and slug it out.

Worst is stepping on something and slip!!!


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 5, 2021)

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