# Systema--Technique-free?



## arnisador

I've heard that Systema doesn't teach techniques per se. But surely they must teach some basic punches, kicks, etc. Is this so? If not, are people assumed to come to Systema with some basic knowledge of basic striking techniques?


----------



## Klondike93

They do teach to punch and kick but not in the traditional manner.

They even do target work once and a while but mostly we just punch and kick each other.


----------



## Touch Of Death

Wouldn't those people you punch and kick at be and have targets? or does target work mean somthing different?


----------



## Arthur

I think by target work... Klondike meant focus pad work. Of course anything you hit is a target... kind of. At least after the fact.

That said... I don';t teach my student how to punch. I teach them hoew to generate force. I teach them how they can find different ways of expressing and generating that force. The motions that come from that training can be an elbow, a punch, a throw, a choke, a lock, etc.

No technique... just movement.

Arthur


----------



## TAZ

Arthur,
       great explination! One of the hardest concepts for new students to grasp is the idea of no technique...however once they start moving they quickly understand how a strike is just a continuation of movement and that the movement does not stop with the strike 

We view the whole body as a striking tool and applied as an intrinsic part of all movement e.g. chest, hips, butt!....very hard to describe but very easy to feel....

For me it was the hook that drew me to the System..so simple but so capable...

my humble take on the subject.

regards

Taz


----------



## Klondike93

That's why Arthur gets the big bucks and I don't, he can explain things a lot better than I.


----------



## Jay Bell

I think that saying that we don't have techniques in Systema is misleading.  We have movements.  We have pieces of movements put together to give a reaction in the opponent's body.  We typically, on the fly, mesh these together for a desired result.

What we normally don't have is "First do this, then this and this and this...and end with this"....as a concrete "structured" idea of what a technique is.

Strikes are worked on immensely.  Everytime I do or am taught the "same old basics", it's brand new.  The angle of thought and the depth of approach has changed dramatically....always furthering the understanding and comfort of it all.  Yet, in the end...everything done is a bi-product of movement.


----------



## NYCRonin

I always liked the comparison to jazz, myself.
Or, perhaps, similar to the way my grandfather, upon purchasing a tin whistle while living in an orphanage almost a century ago, was able to experiment and teach himself how to master the instrument.

We have 'movements' - limited only by the vast range of motion we are capable of - that we link together, adapting to the infinite amount of variables of attack. 
We do not have set techniques - no 'response 'a' to attack sequence 'b' - repeated the 10,000 times in training, until it is a programmed response.

It is, in many ways, MUCH easier to do than one might initially believe.


----------



## TAZ

Rob,
     interesting analogy..one of my students is a 58 year old ex british paratrooper..who happens to also be an avid musician...he compares systema to music all the time...he tells me I provide his with the notes and he arranges them into his own tune... his music and my music are similar but each tune has subtle variations in the notes...

The analogy strikes a chord with me...ok sorry but couldn't resist that one... interestingly enough he did bring a drum stick along to last nights class to play with as an improvised weapon..makes a great Yawara substitute!!

Dave


----------



## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Jay Bell _
> *IWhat we normally don't have is "First do this, then this and this and this...and end with this"....as a concrete "structured" idea of what a technique is.*



In that regard, unlike Kenpo, say?



> *The angle of thought and the depth of approach has changed dramatically....always furthering the understanding  *



In that regard, it _is_ like Kenpo, perhaps?

The emphasis on 'movement' sounds somewhat like the kenpo 'Science of Motion' on the surface but it sounds rather different in actuality.


----------



## NYCRonin

It is hard for me, personally; to compare Systema to any martial art that I have not studied in depth. Also, it would be unfair and a disservice to practitioners in those methods to attempt to do so.
Our family member - Jackal - might be willing to take on that task, though I will not prevail on him to do so...it might be quite interesting.
Systema-ist's kinda get used to comparisons to other arts that viewers are practised in. It is, perhaps, human nature - we can only view things and express them through the familiar.


----------



## Jackal

Somewhere, lost in the mists perhaps, I wrote a post comparing and contrasting Systema and Kenpo in response to a Kenpo practitioners inquiry. Ill have to see if I kept a copy and it still looks worth posting. 



I dont have a lot of time to write at the moment but I can make some quick comments about technique vs. no-technique.

If were defining technique as, The systematic procedure by which a complex or scientific task is accomplished then it is true that we do not study techniques in Systema. Training is build upon situational drills where movement is borne out of necessity. More time is spent in the pursuit of understanding the capabilities of ones own body rather than imitating someone elses solution to a given problem. 

A brief example of a warm-up drill from my first week at Vladimirs school:

1. One person holds a backbend or bridge position
2. Partner thrusts downward with a staff on to the torso or limbs of the bent person.
3. Bent person must yield to or evade staff, always returning to backbend position.

I was having a particularly difficult time evading at first so when Vlad walked by, I asked him how I was supposed to do this properly. He looked at me with a serious expression and said, _Its your body. Its better that you figure it out._ He then walked away.

It was frustrating at the time but it started me on the path of thinking for myself and coming up with my own solutions.

In Systema training, innovation and creative problem solving is stressed as essential. It was freedom that I was never permitted to explore in my earlier, more traditional training.

I am definitely better for it.




-Jackal


----------



## jellyman

Jackal

Reminds me of when I had to get weaned off the JJJ mentality. Looking back, it's amazing how much of a robot that stuff can make you - and I was considered somewhat unorthodox for JJJ at the time.


----------



## Mark Jakabcsin

Jackal wrote: "If were defining technique as, The systematic procedure by which a complex or scientific task is accomplished then it is true that we do not study techniques in Systema. Training is built upon situational drills where movement is borne out of necessity. More time is spent in the pursuit of understanding the capabilities of ones own body rather than imitating someone elses solution to a given problem. "

Very nicely put!!

mark


----------



## Pervaz

"I've heard that Systema doesn't teach techniques per se" - as all the above replies Systema does not teach teachniques in {attacker} throws left punch and {defender} moves to the left with a kick to the nuts!!  i.e. there is no densho to follow.

However with new students you have to create a "framework" for them to understand on how to punch properly i.e. elbow bent, 90 deg, no streching back, relaxed shoulders and 'strong' wrist etc..  Its with these principles and framework that a NEW student can start to create their movements.  There is a scientific basis of how and why some of these principles work, and understanding these ideas before will help you on the learning curve.  I believe that these are some of the principles on k-sys and ROSS (especially the figure 8's principles which I like ) - i..e learning the scientific principles of motion, movement and biomechanics.



Pervaz


----------



## jellyman

My introduction to systema was a bit different than many. Basically I spent the first year under an instructor drilling the material found in H2H, ground fighting, holds, releases and attacks, plus assorted games. My instructor was a real taskmaster, and didn't just demand that my movements look good, but would b very exacting in terms of which muscles were involved, and 'feel'. And of course he would crush me with the sparring and his rather dirty brand of wrestling. Sometimes he'd put me in a painful hold and scream at me to think (of a way out). After some time, something clicked, but it took a LOT of thinking and rethinking of basic assumptions.

After that year I was much better at sparring (as I found out when I started sparring with other people), but I stopped using my jujutsu and used just what  I'd learned during systema. A couple of years later, my jujutsu started coming out of me, too, although often modified and not premeditated. Since then I've picked up very basic stuff from others I have met.

So to use a japanese reference, systema has no waza, but it does have some kihon.

Although, as you go further, the kihon gets subsumed in the movement. You learn to make up your own kihon and think in terms of end results rather than methods.

At the end, you just have this amophous skill set.


----------



## Kwan Lee

This has turned into a great thread with many important ideas given by a few regulars in The System.  Please permit me to think out loud for a minute or two.

I would agree with the importance of learning at least some basics that can be described as technique-like.  Pressure point work is one area that needs to be taught in this way.  However, the delivery of pressure point striking, or any striking, should be, in a word, mindless, whether or not they are done with wave-like figure-eight movement.

Things like proper alignment in punching and movement using the wave are related to keeping and releasing form, a cornerstone principle.  In The System, we want to look at things conceptually in order to build attributes and tools that are able to generate the needed technique in any given situation.  Techniques are the decoration and frosting over the base (cake) of proper movement.  A technique + technique = result mentality will probably yield reasonable results in the training hall, but the time it takes to refer to this methodology in a real situation will probably get you hurt. Of course, we must use our heads to stay out of trouble, but in the heat of it all, our bodies should do the thinking by using intuition, energy fields, and contact forces as tools and inputs.

An example of a more effective construct would be to ask yourself how your initial evasive movement could give you the time and positioning to do other things.  This methodology can result in endless variations. How then can someone focus solely on memorization of technique?  I have learned that for the most part, learning in this way is not the most practical.  Movement is first; technique is second.  Of course, all of this is in conjunction with proper form, breathing, and relaxation.  It is my experience that the moment I start to think about doing a specific technique in a situation is the moment I start to tense up (mentally then physically).  This may be because I am trying to consciously focus on doing a technique while having to react to the actions of my attacker(s), and we all know that the mind cannot focus on two things at once.  If we are lucky, the technique will stick, but while youre taking the time to think of doing the technique and realize that it worked, did you consider the guys buddy behind you?

That being said It is our nature to want to do technique.  We cannot avoid this.  Techniques give us a very temporary hold on what is actually indefinable and unpredictable.  However, we must understand that focusing on technique will hinder us from grasping over-arcing concepts such as freedom of movement.

I will relate an explanation given by one of Vladimirs senior students in Toronto about our limitations when it comes to simple concepts such as movement versus technique.

The concept of perfect movement can be understood as the body of all correct movements for any given situation, for all times.  Perfect movement can thus be seen as a perfect, continuous circle.  We, as students of perfect movement, will invariably tend to slice this circle into pieces (individual arcs) so that we are able to inspect, understand, and digest some part of the whole.  Each piece can be considered a technique, an instance of movement that is taken out of the continuum of perfect movement.  Among other reasons, we do this so that we feel comfortable within the immense framework of The System and also to give ourselves a benchmark in progress.  We think that if we understand each piece of this circle, then we will eventually have it all.  

The only problem is that, though this methodology is somewhat scientific, when we attempt to redraw these individual arcs for ourselves during the process of learning, we end up with imperfect curves of varying radii.  Our formulas for examining these pieces are imprecise.  

This is not to say that somebody should start micromanaging his or her training by studying all the technique in the world, in an attempt to draw a more precise circle.  In the context of the metaphor above, the arcs would get much smaller, and the circle would take forever to construct.  The high number of joints comprising this circle would further impede continuity and flow.  It is unnatural to follow this path.  It is mechanical and will freeze us up when things really need to flow.  We must be ourselves by training in the most intuitive ways and allowing the training to reflect who we are individually.

And herein lies the essential truth that Vladimir once brought up:

*We will never fully understand perfect movement because we are not perfect people.  *

We do our best however, and over time, we end up with a bumpy resemblance of what the actual circle should look like.  Hopefully, we are always tweaking/refining/reconnecting these arcs as we revisit them over the course of our lives.  That is why some circles are smoother than others.

Respectfully,

Kwan Lee


----------



## jellyman

Kwan

That was magnificent! That was algebra!


----------



## Jackal

Great post Kwan!!


----------



## Mark Jakabcsin

Great stuff everyone. I notice that there has been more great Systema posts on this forum in the last two days than in the old forum had in the past month+. Lossing the old forum sucks but one positive is that it has cleaned the slate and ignited new conversation. We can no longer tell folks that ask questions to look in the archives. Still miss the old forum but this new found chattyness is a surprising and nice by product. Take care.

mark


----------



## Klondike93

> Great post Kwan!!



Yes it was.



> That was algebra!



And I suck at math too


----------



## arnisador

"It is our nature to want to do technique."

Thanks, these have been helpful responses! I think I am starting to get it.

I am not quite sure on "wave-like figure-eight movement" though! Does this underlie all or only some strikes?  I know TKD has a "sine wave" theory.


----------



## Klondike93

Sine wave is more like settling your base in Kenpo, the wave in the system is more like a whip effect. It can be used with strikes, kicks, and even evading attacks. Very cool stuff


----------



## Kwan Lee

You guys are welcome!  

Arnisador,

You can start by looking at your relaxed shoulder.  Begin by very slowly rotating your shoulder circularly to the extreme ranges of motion without straining.  Then pick up speed. The rest of your arm should be totally relaxed and should be doing a bit of a whipping up and down as your shoulder rotates.  Change directions.

This kind of natural whipping motion gets enhanced as you coordinate the rotation of your shoulder onto the a half-twisting movement of your torso.  Keep straight in posture while doing this.

It gets further enhanced when you incorporate the figure-8 motion of the shoulder instead of the plain circle.  This movement is great in helping you evade or slip an attack/punch/kick and immediately attacking with same part of the body that was targeted.

Of course, you would first train the figure-8 slowly in the horizontal and vertical directions, then incorporate the twisting at the waist.  If you first do this quickly, without knowing what you are doing, it looks like there is something wrong with you mentally.  Start slowly, and as you begin to feel the "wave" energy propogate through your relaxed arm and shoulder, you will be able to connect this sensation throughout the upper body and into the hips where you can get your legs involved.

Later, you can start this wave motion without telegraphing by training to start the wave on a step or a movement to correct yourself after being thrown off balance.

Hope this was clear,

Kwan Lee


----------



## arnisador

I followed you up to the adding the figure 8 movement.

It _does_ help me put words to what's unusual about Vlad Vasiliev's movement as I see it in the tapes (I don't have them, but my instructor does). I could see it a little while rotating my shoulder around.


----------



## woda

How do you do the figure 8?


----------



## Pervaz

Woda,

Theres a good article on http://www.formauk.org/ross.html - written by John Dovey (i think?).  It gives a good overview of the principles

Thanks

P


----------



## NYCRonin

The article does give a good 'overview' but it is a difficult idea to put down into print. I agree with the author - it is much easier to demonstrate - "to show this" -  as my teacher says.
Actually, I believe this entire thread has enough information that, with experimentation, a reader could begin to understand the figure 8.
Experiment - in leu of an instructor.


----------



## woda

Yeah, after reading it, I agree with NYCRonin. Tell me this then: I have H2H, Holds R&A, Defence from Weapons, Mass Attacks and Strikes. Is this principle shown in one of these films?


----------



## NYCRonin

Yep, most notably in H2H and mass attacks - though you wont hear any special attention brought to it. wath Vlad as he is working against the group in 'mass' and think about the written stuff above - you should see it jump out at you now.


----------



## Clive

For ways of punching see the H2H videos, Vladimir shows a good selection of the types of punches used in Systema, a good one i my opinion is Tichok, where you have one guy holding your arms from behind while you try and hit a guy in front. It stresses working from a disadvantage. You also have the military punch, this you use your body weight and let your arm fall on the guy, the idea is that when you are tired you need an effective strike you can use that will not require you to use to much effort. There are others but I can't remember them. Sorry.


----------



## woda

Thank you.


----------



## Brian King

There has been some curiosity about Systema raised on a couple of recent threads here on MT. Rather than respond to those threads I decided to bump this VERY good thread back to the top of the page. Many answers can be found in this thread and other threads. I hope that it provides some answers that will aid in exploration.

Regards
Brian King


----------

