# What do you think is the most ruthless?



## DoubleZ711 (Mar 15, 2009)

This may turn into an argument, but what do you guys think is the most ruthless martial art that is publicly taught? Don't talk about some art that no one has ever heard of, I am strictly speaking about something one can actually find a place to train in it.


----------



## crushing (Mar 15, 2009)

I see ruthlessness as being a characteristic of a person or practitioner, not as a component of an art.


----------



## JadecloudAlchemist (Mar 15, 2009)

> *adjective *without pity or compassion; cruel; merciless


 
You are not going to find an art that fits the adjective.
The prefix


> *ruth*&#8194; &#8194;/ru&#952;/
> 
> Show Spelled Pronunciation [rooth]
> 
> ...


So in essence an art that has no remorse,cruel,merciless would be one that aims to kill or leave crippled. All arts have the potiental to generate this amount of damage but to kill with no remorse I do not think it is possible.


----------



## Thesemindz (Mar 15, 2009)

DoubleZ711 said:


> This may turn into an argument, but what do you guys think is the most ruthless martial art that is publicly taught? Don't talk about some art that no one has ever heard of, I am strictly speaking about something one can actually find a place to train in it.


 
Depends on how you define ruthlessness. 

If you are referring to eye gouges and groin strikes, Kenpo has alot of that.

If you mean limb devestation and strangulation, BJJ has alot of that.

If you mean kicking someone in the had, TKD has alot of that.

If you mean rapid short strikes to vulnerable targets, Krav Maga has alot of that.

But if you mean put them down and keep them down, I'd recommend a CCW license and a .45 pistol.

Ultimately what makes a martial arts ruthless is the practitioner. They decide the level of force to apply, and how and when to do so. Some of the most ruthless monsters in the world never stepped foot in a karate studio.


-Rob


----------



## Thesemindz (Mar 15, 2009)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> to kill with no remorse I do not think it is possible.


 
You can't be serious. I have to be misreading this.

Lots of people kill with absolutely no remorse every single day. Our prisons are filled with them, and the police only even bring about 60% of murders _to trial_.

Trust me. Killing without remorse is possible. Even murdering without remorse is easy for some people. And those are the kind of people you need to be prepared for.


-Rob


----------



## JadecloudAlchemist (Mar 15, 2009)

> All arts have the potiental to generate this amount of damage but to kill with no remorse I do not think it is possible.


 
As in an art that teaches strictly to kill without remorse is not possible because of usually moral ethics brought up in the teaching of the techniques.

Ruthless implies someone who will go up to someone and just break his arm because he want to not because he have to.

If an art had to be defined as ruthless it would be one who has no concern for another's life and aim would be to kill or inflict massive damage such as crippling and the likes.


----------



## Thesemindz (Mar 15, 2009)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> As in an art that teaches strictly to kill without remorse is not possible because of usually moral ethics brought up in the teaching of the techniques.
> 
> Ruthless implies someone who will go up to someone and just break his arm because he want to not because he have to.
> 
> If an art had to be defined as ruthless it would be one who has no concern for another's life and aim would be to kill or inflict massive damage such as crippling and the likes.


 
Such as the martial practices which are taught to our armed services' men and women? They are taught to kill because they are told to. What morality is at play there? They may be given reasons, but they are trained to follow orders. There's an enemy. Kill it.

I see that you are making a deliniation between a ruthless killer, and a ruthless martial art, so I will partially withdraw my previous statements is so much as I thought you were simply making the blanket statement that it was not possible to kill without remorse. I see now that you are saying it is not possible for an art to teach strictly to kill.

I would still disagree however. There are many perverts, pedophiles, and psychopaths teaching martial arts. Merely being exposed to combatives does not teach morality, it is the decision of the student and teacher to introduce that aspect into the instruction. Even when it is, not everyone will take it to heart.

I have met remorseless killers. I'm not bragging. You probably have too and not even realized it. They eat at McDonalds and shop at Walmart just like the rest of us. Just because someone teaches them _how_ to punch and kick, doesn't mean that person bothered to teach them _when_ or _why_ to punch and kick, or that they listened.


-Rob


----------



## Aiki Lee (Mar 15, 2009)

I don't think there is a martial art that is the most ruthless. There are some that are "more" violent than others. For example, aikijujutsu is more violent than aikido. Krav maga is more violent than olympic TKD. The point is that all combative MA teach dangerous techniques to cripple and kill. Ruthlessness is in the eye of the beholder. If I kill a man for looking at me funny that would be ruthless and evil, but if I kill him for trying to stab me and show no remorese for it, I don't view that as ruthless since it is justified. The word "ruthless" makes me think of an evil person, and although I am willing to destroy my enemy I do not consider myself ruthless.


----------



## JadecloudAlchemist (Mar 15, 2009)

You are correct thesemindz thank you for sharing.


----------



## Omar B (Mar 15, 2009)

Ruthlessness is all about the practitioner not the art.  With a little training and knowledge of the body's weak points anybody can be a killing machine.  Fact is, self defense is about using as little force necessary to keep you alive and safe without having you up on murder charges.


----------



## MJS (Mar 15, 2009)

DoubleZ711 said:


> This may turn into an argument, but what do you guys think is the most ruthless martial art that is publicly taught? Don't talk about some art that no one has ever heard of, I am strictly speaking about something one can actually find a place to train in it.


 
IMHO, any art has the potential to be what you describe.  However, and again, this is just my opinion, but I feel that a very large percentage of it comes down to how you train.  You can take 2 exact arts.  One group trains very relaxed, no pressure, no or very little contact, etc.  Group two has hard contact, fights hard, and puts the students under stress/pressure when doing certain aspects of training.  

So, going on that, I'd say group 2 would probably be more along the lines of what you're looking for.


----------



## Thesemindz (Mar 15, 2009)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> You are correct thesemindz thank you for sharing.


 
I hope I didn't offend you with my argument.


-Rob


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 15, 2009)

The question from the OP is _what *martial art* is the most ruthless_. there's no answer to that. As others have said it's the 'user' that is ruthless the art isn't. It's like asking which is the most ruthless gun.
As such a martial art is an inanimate object, it's the martial artist that makes it alive, if they are ruthless then anything they do will also be ruthless regardless of what art they practice. If they are that way inclined I daresay they can make yoga moves vicious and kill with it.


----------



## Thesemindz (Mar 15, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> The question from the OP is _what *martial art* is the most ruthless_. there's no answer to that. As others have said it's the 'user' that is ruthless the art isn't. It's like asking which is the most ruthless gun.
> As such a martial art is an inanimate object, it's the martial artist that makes it alive, if they are ruthless then anything they do will also be ruthless regardless of what art they practice. If they are that way inclined I daresay they can make yoga moves vicious and kill with it.


 
I like your description of the martial arts as an inanimate object. I don't usually think of it in those terms, but it is an excellent description.

I've seen some yoga moves that seemed pretty vicious to me. I have a feeling if I tried to stand on my neck it would kill somebody.


-Rob


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 15, 2009)

Thesemindz said:


> I like your description of the martial arts as an inanimate object. I don't usually think of it in those terms, but it is an excellent description.
> 
> I've seen some yoga moves that seemed pretty vicious to me. I* have a feeling if I tried to stand on my neck it would kill somebody.*
> 
> ...


 

LOL! it would kill me!

Thinking about it further perhaps martial arts are a tool as much as anything else?


----------



## searcher (Mar 15, 2009)

Many have already stated this but it is worth repeating.    MA are a means for someone to be ruthless.   The art cannot be ruthless, as it is a set of techniques grouped together.    Sure, most have a particular midset that the instructor tries to convey, but that comes back to a person, not the art itself.


And part of it also has to come from what YOU consider ruthless.    You and I and many others will have varying opinions on what is ruthless.


----------



## Bruno@MT (Mar 15, 2009)

My old jiu-jitsu sensei was a bouncer, and had a rough life. 's a funny thing. I learned the same art as him. Only I had the fighting spirit of the energizer bunny without batteries, and he was like a rabid pitbull.

In a standing fight we were about equal. On the ground I could beat him with one hand on my back. On the street I'd run for my life because he'd put me in intensive care.

Really, it's the man, not the art.


----------



## JadecloudAlchemist (Mar 15, 2009)

> I hope I didn't offend you with my argument.


 
I am not offended by anothers opinion just as I hope noone is offended by my opinion. In the end after thinking about it I believe we shared the same idea that it is the person and not the art just you had a better way of putting it.


----------



## Thesemindz (Mar 15, 2009)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> I am not offended by anothers opinion just as I hope noone is offended by my opinion. In the end after thinking about it I believe we shared the same idea that it is the person and not the art just you had a better way of putting it.


 
Cool. I wasn't sure if you were agreeing or just shutting down, so I wanted to make sure. It certainly wasn't my intention to offend, glad to hear I did not.

Always a pleasure.


-Rob


----------



## seasoned (Mar 15, 2009)

The person, not the art. Makes sense to me. If I am defending myself, I will do what I can to win, but at the same time, being sure I dont over do it, so as to jeopardize myself, where the law is concerned. Now give me something very near and dear to me, like my wife, or kids, and many a mild mannered person has gone to jail because of the ruthless things he has done in the name of self defense.


----------



## jks9199 (Mar 15, 2009)

crushing said:


> I see ruthlessness as being a characteristic of a person or practitioner, not as a component of an art.


I have to agree.  ANY art has it's component of "ruthless" techniques.  Whether or not a person chooses to use them is a personal choice.


----------



## jks9199 (Mar 15, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> LOL! it would kill me!
> 
> Thinking about it further perhaps martial arts are a tool as much as anything else?


Martial arts are a technology.  Like any technology, they are neither inherently good nor bad.  Let me use a scenario to highlight what I mean:  A gunman is killing school kids.  A police officer responds, and shoots and kills the gunman.  The technology, the gun, is neutral in and of itself.  It's how it's used that matters.


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 15, 2009)

jks9199 said:


> Martial arts are a technology. Like any technology, they are neither inherently good nor bad. Let me use a scenario to highlight what I mean: A gunman is killing school kids. A police officer responds, and shoots and kills the gunman. The technology, the gun, is neutral in and of itself. It's how it's used that matters.


 
That's how I think about it, you can't have a ruthless gun as you can't have a compassionate one.


----------



## jks9199 (Mar 15, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> That's how I think about it, you can't have a ruthless gun as you can't have a compassionate one.


I guess maybe a squirt gun loaded with holy water could be considered a compassionate gun!  :rofl:

Seriously, this is why I don't want (and don't have) a lot of moral philosophy in my martial arts.  I'm not going to to teach someone I think is going to break the law, but I'm not going to try to impose my morality on my students.  Not even the kids...


----------



## Thesemindz (Mar 15, 2009)

jks9199 said:


> I guess maybe a squirt gun loaded with holy water could be considered a compassionate gun! :rofl:


 
Not to a vampire. Bigot.


-Rob


----------



## jks9199 (Mar 15, 2009)

Thesemindz said:


> Not to a vampire. Bigot.
> 
> 
> -Rob


But you see, that's still compassion.  A vampire is a poor soul condemned to walk the earth after their death; ending their suffering IS compassion!


----------



## Thesemindz (Mar 15, 2009)

jks9199 said:


> But you see, that's still compassion. A vampire is a poor soul condemned to walk the earth after their death; ending their suffering IS compassion!


 
What!!! You *ARE* a bigot!!!

Somebody tell a mod!!!


-Rob


----------



## still learning (Mar 15, 2009)

Hello, Most martial arts have ruthless techniques in there systems.

The one that impress us.. is the INDONESIAN martial arts -Pinon-silat?

The one we saw has many bones breaking techniques

In our Universal Kempo Karate schools - it can be a very brutel or ruthless if we wish to use those techniques that kill or break bones or neck  or anything that cause lots of damages

Every martial arts have "eye gouging" which can be consider? ruthless...

Even Judo can be consider "ruthless"...when you see the COMBAT SIDE OF JUDO....breaking joints, necks,elbows,wrist,fingers, eye gouging too..

Most people do not think about breaking the BIG TOE....just like breaking the thumbs...same results!

NO matter which arts you take...most of them have "ruthless" techniques in them......

Aloha ...to end an attack...may need to be "ruthless".....


----------



## chinto (Mar 16, 2009)

I do not think any of the arts are more "ruthless", as you have defined it, then the others.  
I think that the practitioner who may be ruthless.  that said I would say that the older styles may be taught to resort to some of the devastating techniques before say some one who trains in BJJ or Judo might.  
but again that is the practitioner will be the one who makes that dissension.


----------



## Thems Fighting Words (Mar 16, 2009)

The most ruthless MA is one that teaches combat as way to kill your enemy while simultaneously dehumanizing said enemy. So I'd say systems taught to military personnel would be the most ruthless.


----------



## Thesemindz (Mar 16, 2009)

I think the most ruthless martial art is the irish art of Fuk-Yu.

It's mostly just headbutting people and then kicking them while they're on the ground.

It's pretty ruthless.


-Rob


----------



## Cirdan (Mar 16, 2009)

Definately Turkish Wrestling.
Why? If focuses on forcing your hands down some other guy`s pants for christ`s sake!


----------



## Guardian (Mar 16, 2009)

crushing said:


> I see ruthlessness as being a characteristic of a person or practitioner, not as a component of an art.


 

Exactly!


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 16, 2009)

DoubleZ711 said:


> This may turn into an argument, but what do you guys think is the most ruthless martial art that is publicly taught? Don't talk about some art that no one has ever heard of, I am strictly speaking about something one can actually find a place to train in it.


There is not now, nor has there been to my knowledge, a single Ruth that has ever been a member of our school, which makes our taekwondo, kendo, and hapkidp all Ruth-less.  

There has *definitely* never been any Ruth in my kendo class, ever.  So I can say with supreme confidence that my Kendo class is _the_ *most* Ruth-less martial art.  

The day that a Ruth signs up to take the class, I will of course lose that claim. 

Daniel


----------



## Nolerama (Mar 16, 2009)

I think a guy or gal with a sapphire belt (the highest belt... evar) in Gymkata and a JD in Word-Jitsu would beat the bejesus out of anyone... and take all of their money.


----------



## TigerCraneGuy (Mar 16, 2009)

Rifle-Do and Gun-Do!:shooter:

Natch...


----------



## Ninebird8 (Mar 16, 2009)

In my opinion, the question should not be, Which martial art is the most ruthless, but rather under what circumstances would a well trained martial artist become ruthless, irregardless of the art trained? For example, if I am teaching my students or my family, I would never be ruthless, but kind and compassionate, and teach same to my students through my actions. However, if someone tries to harm my wife, my immediate family, or my children, then I will become ruthless. Thus, it becomes not the art but the motivation therein! Eventually, the art should make us natural and instinctual, with little thought once commenced.....however, the actual act of combat or commitment there in should be thought out and accepted depending upon the situation. In other words, move like an animal but think like a human!! My two cents worth, with respect and no ruthlessness...LOL!


----------



## HG1 (Mar 16, 2009)

DoubleZ711 said:


> This may turn into an argument, but what do you guys think is the most ruthless martial art that is publicly taught? Don't talk about some art that no one has ever heard of, I am strictly speaking about something one can actually find a place to train in it.


As others have stated, all martial arts have the capacity for violence or mercy.  It's the intent of the practitioner that determines the outcome.


----------



## Joab (Mar 16, 2009)

DoubleZ711 said:


> This may turn into an argument, but what do you guys think is the most ruthless martial art that is publicly taught? Don't talk about some art that no one has ever heard of, I am strictly speaking about something one can actually find a place to train in it.


 
I'm going to diverge a bit from the majority and write plainly that some systems are more ruthless than others. While it is true that many systems have the potential for ruthless actions, to say Aikido, a primarily defensive style called the gentle martial art, is not as ruthless as say, American Combato, a very offensive form would not be true. That said, while I have the most experience with American Combato (Although only a beginner, never even tested for a belt) it was clearly taught that the eye gouges, kicks to the knees, strikes to the windpipe and the like that are taught in the system are only to be used in self defense and only deadly techniques used when your life is in danger and never use any of it unless you can't run. So, we were taught to basically be ruthless if there was no other option, do what you need to do to survive the attack, ruthless if needed.

I do have a yellow belt in Krav Maga (This means very little, after eight weeks we were all tested and we all passed. If you got 70% of a technique right you passed, it was a joke, not stating all Krav Maga classes are like this, merely the one I took)  and I would again say it was more ruthless than a system like Aikido, but again the emphasis on only using it in self defense.

Personally, I would like it if more gentle systems like Aikido could indeed work against an attacker. I've been convinced by experts that they can't work, they may be wrong, but they convinced me. I think there are times you need to be ruthless to survive, and some systems are more ruthless than others, certainly regarding the damage done to the opponent. Than again, I'm no expert. And I'm sure you could kill even using Aikido, throw the guy on the head on hard concrete...he would likely die.


----------



## HG1 (Mar 16, 2009)

Joab said:


> *EDIT*Personally, I would like it if more gentle systems like Aikido could indeed work against an attacker. I've been convinced by experts that they can't work, they may be wrong, but they convinced me. I think there are times you need to be ruthless to survive, and some systems are more ruthless than others, certainly regarding the damage done to the opponent. Than again, I'm no expert. And I'm sure you could kill even using Aikido, throw the guy on the head on hard concrete...he would likely die.


Do these experts have any real working knowledge about the _gentle_ systems they critique?  If not, I would go find out for myself.


----------



## Joab (Mar 16, 2009)

HG1 said:


> Do these experts have any real working knowledge about the _gentle_ systems they critique? If not, I would go find out for myself.


 
I don't know, but I'm convinced that the more gentle systems can not work on the street against an attacker. Take Aikido's wrist lock against a punch, action is faster than reaction, if he knows how to punch he will hit you, the answer is to strike back, or better yet run, if that's a viable option. Action being faster than reaction is known to all who know something of Physics. With all due respect to the practitioners of Aikido, which certainly has a beautiful philosophy, if not particularly practical against a determined mugger on the streets in my opinion and of those I have talked with and are experts in such arts as Wing Chun and American Combato. They are experts, I'm a beginner.


----------



## Thems Fighting Words (Mar 16, 2009)

Thesemindz said:


> I think the most ruthless martial art is the irish art of Fuk-Yu.
> 
> It's mostly just headbutting people and then kicking them while they're on the ground.
> 
> ...



Happy St Patrick's day. :yoda:




Cirdan said:


> Definately Turkish Wrestling.
> Why? If focuses on forcing your hands down some other guy`s pants for christ`s sake!



The dreaded Analplata. Truly a move that can submit even the strongest of men. :wah:



Joab said:


> I don't know, but I'm convinced that the more gentle systems can not work on the street against an attacker. Take Aikido's wrist lock against a punch, action is faster than reaction, if he knows how to punch he will hit you, the answer is to strike back, or better yet run, if that's a viable option. Action being faster than reaction is known to all who know something of Physics. With all due respect to the practitioners of Aikido, which certainly has a beautiful philosophy, if not particularly practical against a determined mugger on the streets in my opinion and of those I have talked with and are experts in such arts as Wing Chun and American Combato. They are experts, I'm a beginner.



Well I've never done Aikido but if it utilizes correct bridging techniques there is nothing that stops it from being able to control the flow of an attack. This control of an opponant's attack is in itself an action with the opponant's attack being the reaction and the opponant's defeat the consequence. Think of it along the lines of a feint.


----------



## searcher (Mar 16, 2009)

Joab-you do realize that ju-jitsu, multiple kung fu systems, Kajukenbo, and EPAK are what are called "gentle" arts? It has to do with how you deal with another person's techniques(kicks, punches) and not the ideology ofthe system.


It has become common to call "soft" styles gentle, but they are anything but gentle.

And just to add a little bit, the joint locks in Aikido are the nice verison of a bone break. I would like to know who these "experts" are that you speak of. Because they are not experts.


----------



## Joab (Mar 16, 2009)

Thems Fighting Words said:


> Happy St Patrick's day. :yoda:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
The attack takes place before the Aikido defense. At any rate, after seeing the speed of the punches thrown in a wing chun school (including even mine after a time) I became convinced Aikido could not work against them.


----------



## Joab (Mar 16, 2009)

searcher said:


> Joab-you do realize that ju-jitsu, multiple kung fu systems, Kajukenbo, and EPAK are what are called "gentle" arts? It has to do with how you deal with another person's techniques(kicks, punches) and not the ideology ofthe system.
> 
> 
> It has become common to call "soft" styles gentle, but they are anything but gentle.
> ...


 
Bradley J. Steiner, founder and 10th degree black belt in American Combato, Sifu John N. Beal, Greenlake Martial Arts school, both schools in Seattle. You can contact professor Steiner at:www.americancombato.com


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 17, 2009)

Joab said:


> I'm going to diverge a bit from the majority and write plainly that some systems are more ruthless than others. While it is true that many systems have the potential for ruthless actions, to say Aikido, a primarily defensive style called the gentle martial art, is not as ruthless as say, American Combato, a very offensive form would not be true. That said, while I have the most experience with American Combato (Although only a beginner, never even tested for a belt) it was clearly taught that the eye gouges, kicks to the knees, strikes to the windpipe and the like that are taught in the system are only to be used in self defense and only deadly techniques used when your life is in danger and never use any of it unless you can't run. So, we were taught to basically be ruthless if there was no other option, do what you need to do to survive the attack, ruthless if needed.
> 
> I do have a yellow belt in Krav Maga (This means very little, after eight weeks we were all tested and we all passed. If you got 70% of a technique right you passed, it was a joke, not stating all Krav Maga classes are like this, merely the one I took) and I would again say it was more ruthless than a system like Aikido, but again the emphasis on only using it in self defense.
> 
> Personally, I would like it if more gentle systems like Aikido could indeed work against an attacker. I've been convinced by experts that they can't work, they may be wrong, but they convinced me. I think there are times you need to be ruthless to survive, and some systems are more ruthless than others, certainly regarding the damage done to the opponent. Than again, I'm no expert. And I'm sure you could kill even using Aikido, throw the guy on the head on hard concrete...he would likely die.


 

I disagree with you I'm afraid, there's no point in having vicious techniques in any style if a person is too squeamish or is unable to do them therefore it's not the art thats ruthless is it? it's the person.

i would suggest too that the Krav maga you took wasn't taken by credible instructors nor do you know that much about Aikido. LOL at 'gentle'!


----------



## Thems Fighting Words (Mar 17, 2009)

Joab said:


> The attack takes place before the Aikido defense. At any rate, after seeing the speed of the punches thrown in a wing chun school (including even mine after a time) I became convinced Aikido could not work against them.



Again, while the movement may not be seen as such, a feint (such as a false opening) is itself an action which makes the following attack the reaction. Also, very few fights between comparatively skilled martial artists are going to end in a one hit KO (unless someone is really unlucky or is blindsided). So supposing the Aikido practitioner is skilled enough to avoid the first strike (or even forces a first strike against a false opening) and steps in to bridge and control, there really isn't a reason he shouldn't be able to use his skills in effective SD. Mind you, as I said before my knowledge of Aikido is very limited and I am working from the premise that Aikido practitioners have the ability to successfully enter into a grapple.


----------



## Ronin74 (Mar 17, 2009)

The most ruthless martial art? I'd say it's between Sinanju and the Fist of the North Star... lol.


----------



## Cirdan (Mar 17, 2009)

As Aikido classes have more injuries than almost any other art it could be argued it is among the most ruthless.

You could kill "EVEN" using Aikido? Man you just gave me the first laugh of the day.


----------



## Hand Sword (Mar 17, 2009)

Joab said:


> The attack takes place before the Aikido defense. At any rate, after seeing the speed of the punches thrown in a wing chun school (including even mine after a time) I became convinced Aikido could not work against them.


 

Whoa there fella!! Ease back a bit when deciding to make jugdgements especially when you are a self proclaimed beginner. I've worked with and seen many Aikidoka fight for real, and against boxers, who bye the way have faster hands than any other art as they specialize in that area. The results were Aikido was effective and seriously so. In fact, the results were equal to any other systems (maybe even better, as Aikidoka are experts at getting out of the way). I knew of many that had their day ruined.


----------



## Thems Fighting Words (Mar 17, 2009)

Ronin74 said:


> The most ruthless martial art? I'd say it's between Sinanju and the Fist of the North Star... lol.



Oh man, how could I forget Fist of the Northstar?!? :duh:

"You don't know it yet, but you're already dead...."


----------



## Joab (Mar 17, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> I disagree with you I'm afraid, there's no point in having vicious techniques in any style if a person is too squeamish or is unable to do them therefore it's not the art thats ruthless is it? it's the person.
> 
> i would suggest too that the Krav maga you took wasn't taken by credible instructors nor do you know that much about Aikido. LOL at 'gentle'!


 
Well, your right, if your too squeamish to use it there is no point in learning it. But the techniques were indeed ruthess. The Krav Maga I took was taught by a black belt, endorsed by the big Los Angeles Krav Maga school. I hope not all  Krav Maga instructors give out such belts so easily. Your right, I don't know very much about aikido, but I'm convinced it wouldn't work against a very fast attack.


----------



## Joab (Mar 17, 2009)

Hand Sword said:


> Whoa there fella!! Ease back a bit when deciding to make jugdgements especially when you are a self proclaimed beginner. I've worked with and seen many Aikidoka fight for real, and against boxers, who bye the way have faster hands than any other art as they specialize in that area. The results were Aikido was effective and seriously so. In fact, the results were equal to any other systems (maybe even better, as Aikidoka are experts at getting out of the way). I knew of many that had their day ruined.


 
I was qouting experts in other arts, your right, I don't know enough to judge Aikido, but I'm convinced it couldn't work against a fast striking style.


----------



## searcher (Mar 17, 2009)

Joab said:


> Bradley J. Steiner, founder and 10th degree black belt in American Combato, Sifu John N. Beal, Greenlake Martial Arts school, both schools in Seattle. You can contact professor Steiner at:www.americancombato.com


 

Thank you, I will.


----------



## bluekey88 (Mar 17, 2009)

What the "experts" are missing is hat highi level Aikido involves the use of atem,i (e.g. striking) to set up those gentle wrsit locks and throws.  However, much of the early training focuses on the Aiki (blending) aspects of the art as tyhose are the hardest to really master and utilize effecrtively.  Striking tends to come later.  however Ueshiba Sensei was oft quoted as saying that atemi was at the heart of good Aikido.

In the end, high level Aikido looks as awful lot like high level karate, kempo, taijutsu, etc.

Many paths up the mountain but the destination is the same.

Peace,
Erik


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 17, 2009)

Joab said:


> I was qouting experts in other arts, your right, I don't know enough to judge Aikido, but I'm convinced it couldn't work against a fast striking style.


So you don't know what you're talking about. You admit this in several posts, then proceed to argue your point. 

You say that you're a beginner. You say that you "*don't know enough to judge aikido*," but that you're convinced that it cannot work against a fast striking style. You cannot support this statement. Yet, you have argued it now for at least five posts in the face of numerous individuals pointing out the falicies of the statement. Individuals who are not beginners and who *do* know enough to judge aikido.

The only support you _can_ offer for your assertions is the website for guys who run American Combato schools and/or call themselves sifus in some other art. What makes them experts in _aikido_? Why should I listen to them? Sounds like they have a product to sell. Incidentally, when instructors of one style deride another, the *only* reason is to *sell you their product* (however good that product may be). 

Daniel


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 17, 2009)

Thems Fighting Words said:


> Again, while the movement may not be seen as such, a feint (such as a false opening) is itself an action which makes the following attack the reaction. Also, very few fights between comparatively skilled martial artists are going to end in a one hit KO (unless someone is really unlucky or is blindsided). So supposing the Aikido practitioner is skilled enough to avoid the first strike (or even forces a first strike against a false opening) and steps in to bridge and control, there really isn't a reason he shouldn't be able to use his skills in effective SD. Mind you, as I said before my knowledge of Aikido is very limited and I am working from the premise that Aikido practitioners have the ability to successfully enter into a grapple.


They do.

Daniel


----------



## Aiki Lee (Mar 17, 2009)

While Aikido is not a "comabative" martial art, it can be applied to realistic combat situations because the methods of aikido are dirived from daito ryu which is highly effective. 

All martial techniques from all systems will work _if you can properly set them up_. To perform aiki movements you need proper energy and aikido and other systems that teach aiki instruct students how to manipulate the energy in a fight. It takes a long time to bne effective at this, but experts can do things that would seem impossible to so called "experts".


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 17, 2009)

Joab said:


> Well, your right, if your too squeamish to use it there is no point in learning it. *But the techniques were indeed ruthess*. The Krav Maga I took was taught by a black belt, endorsed by the big Los Angeles Krav Maga school. I hope not all Krav Maga instructors give out such belts so easily. Your right, I don't know very much about aikido, but I'm convinced it wouldn't work against a very fast attack.


 

Inanimate objects even martial arts techniques cannot be ruthless! Something that is not living, not able to feel emotion cannot therefore be ruthless. If you wish to use another word such as deadly,destructive, murderous, savage or violent then perhaps but not ruthless.
A black belt isn't, sadly, always an indication of a credible instructor or school.
Insulting Aiki practictioners is not a good road to go down to keep a good discussion going.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 17, 2009)

Well, people place way too much emphasis on speed. Being fast is less important than reading body language. Read the language and you know that the attack is coming and can respond accordingly. 

There are younger, faster guys in class with me, both in taekwondo and kendo, who have remarked that when they go to hit me, I'm simply 'not there'. They think that I'm faster than they are, but I'm really not. I observe them and read them. Some are easier to read than other. 

The other thing is distance sense. If you have a good distance sense, you can make it much more difficult to be struck.

Then there's timing. If you're sense of timing is good, then the speed of your opponent of an advantage to them. 

One last comment is that most MA systems are set up to train you to defend against people "on the street," not advanced practitioners of Wing Chun, Kenpo, Shotokan, or any other TMA. *EDIT: yes, martial training in one system is beneficial to defend against another, but by and large, that is not the scenario that people outside of competition are concerned with.*  Aikido is actually very practical for defense of one's self, assuming that one trains well and receives quality instruction.

The biggest concern that I have in a street encounter isn't whether or not the guy has trained in a martial system, but whether or not he has a knife, a gun, or a posse of friends.

Daniel


----------



## Ninebird8 (Mar 17, 2009)

With respect, for someone who does not have hardly any martial arts experience, and none in Aikido, I would ask that you first see for yourself, and not listen to what everyone says! One of my kung fu brothers is also an aikido adept and Brazilian jujitsu black belt legit besides our kung fu. We spar for 1-2 hours every Tuesday night in my garage. He has in total over 20 years of experience and I have over 30 years experience. We use everything we have learned and play. I can tell you that when I go full speed with my kung fu and he employs his true aikido, he is able to defend and strike simultaneously and catch me off balance if I do not move and absorb as well.  Brother, as I have stated many times, it is NOT the art, but the one who executes it. And, again, the arts that are promulgated today that have survived many years did so because at their geneisis they were life/death fighting arts....there were no pitter patter tournaments, rolling on the ground, etc. And, by the way both Krav Maga and Combato employ certain softer techniques as you progress. How do I know? Though I have spent 32 years as a kung fu and tai chi practitioner from legit hard boiled fighters, my religious background has afforded me many opportunities to meet and play with Israeli Krav Maga people. I will tell you the good ones have Yin as well as Yang like all good fighters. 

My one pet peeve after all this time is the total rejection of someone saying something will not work when they have not gone against a treu adept in it and seen for themselves! I have sparred/fought many styles other than kung fu and I will tell you, for instance, a Bill Sosa (God rest his soul) in aikido, Yang Chen Fu in tai chi, or others of that ilk can well handle full speed attacks. 

Before judging anything in life, experience it firsthand, then either accept it, adapt it, or let it go!! With honor!


----------



## Ninebird8 (Mar 17, 2009)

My bad on genesis and true misspellings...was typing very fast while at work. I apologize!


----------



## Brian King (Mar 17, 2009)

*Joab wrote:*


> I don't know, but I'm convinced that the more gentle systems can not work on the street against an attacker. Take Aikido's wrist lock against a punch, action is faster than reaction, if he knows how to punch he will hit you, the answer is to strike back, or better yet run, if that's a viable option. Action being faster than reaction is known to all who know something of Physics. With all due respect to the practitioners of Aikido, which certainly has a beautiful philosophy, if not particularly practical against a determined mugger on the streets in my opinion and of those I have talked with and are experts in such arts as Wing Chun and American Combato. They are experts, I'm a beginner.


 
Joab
Regarding Aikido not working against a determined attacker I suggest that you take your time buying others truths and adapting their truth as the truth. I might suggest that you actually try a little quality Aikido and give it a go attacking someone well trained and then forming your opinion. 

Many experts have their biases formed by their experiences without testing or retesting, they can easily get stuck in the 'expert box' where the fear of looking bad or being shown up grows and grows and makes their box smaller and smaller. For instance some experts stay in their world in their niche and never venture out trying other martial arts. They have plenty of people come to them so they have an idea of what different martial arts do and how they (the experts) and their arts compare. The problem of course is that they set up the comparing under their terms doing those things that they have done thousands of times and those that visit them are rarely highly trained in the other art and are trying to learn the experts art not show up the expert. Not all experts stay in their cave and preach to their choir but go out and honestly train with equally qualified practitioners of other arts. You can tell these experts from the others not only by their movements and skills but by their informed understanding of other arts or the way they qualify their statements when conversing about other arts. Taking an experts opinion is fine and dandy but before making it your own it needs to be tested and verified multiple times. Once accepted it is very good to take your own truths and retest them and verify that the opinion still holds water and do so repeatedly and be grateful if your opinion changes over time and other experiences. 


Regarding action vs. reaction you are correct. Action is usually faster than reaction. This is a truth. The action in this case being a punch will be faster than a reaction -no matter if that reaction is a punch or a throw or a turn around and run if both people have equal understandings of timing reflexes awareness and sensitivity. It is true that many Aikido-ka especially the very new will have a difficult time dealing with say a boxers jab. LOL so do many boxers LOL. The trick of course isand I am hoping to be able to articulate this so that it is understandableit is much easier to demonstrate in person, if the attacker throws the punch because the timing and the range was correct for the punch and it was their choice then they initiated the attack, but just because they throw a punch doesnt mean that they initiated the attack. A punch can initiated by the opponent not the one throwing the punch. By being aware of range timing and reactions a person can be manipulated into throwing a predetermined attack to a predetermined target. If this is practiced and understood then even though the puncher is initiating the attack in truth they are reacting to the defenders action and are usually a beat behind physically and mentally. 


Joab, it may feel others are jumping on you and your opinions. I hope you understand that they do so from a deeper understanding that you admittedly currently possess. I like you (I think) am in the Seattle area and know where you are coming from (which is why I am taking the time responding to your posts). The timing of this thread and your posts are very fortunate as is your location. I *VERY STRONGLY* recommend that you attend this seminar this weekend!!
http://www.aikiweb.com/workshop/
*George Ledyard, Toby Threadgill, and Aaron Clark​*March 20-22, 2009
in Seattle, WA
Three instructors from three different lineages will share their budo experience during this three-day workshop. They will present different but compatible approaches to the physical application of techniques and principles from their arts of Aikido, Takamura-ha Shindo Yoshin Ryu, and Jiyushinkai Aikibudo. ​ 
Hosted by: Two Cranes Aikido Dojo, Seattle WA.

I have had the opportunity to work quite a bit with George Ledyard who is local in our area Joab http://aikieast.com and can recommend him for training with out any reservations at all no matter how fast your hands are. He has been tested and challenged before and finds it amusing and no big deal at all. I have also had a little experience with Toby Threadgill who is out of Colorado (I suggest that you do a google search of him and his art) and I can also recommend him for training without reservations and I really enjoy his sword work as well as his empty hand work. I do not yet have experience with Aaron Clark but have observed his father teach and was impressed by his practical knowledge and skill. Both Aaron and his father recently moved to the Seattle area and have great reputations. You might notice the budo term in their art. I am not really following this seminar but knowing two of the three instructors and something of the other art I am thinking that this would be a great event for you to test your and your experts opinions of Aikido and Aiki type of arts not to mention the chance to train with three world class instructors in three different arts at one seminar.

You might also notice that these instructors are willing to teach and show their art along side other arts and at seminars open to any that wish to attend. 

Your journey has just started Joab and I envy you your newness. You have so much to discover and explore and you are living in a great martial arts area during an unprecedented time of sharing and growth. 

If you attend the seminar please say hello to George for me (I am debating about attending Sunday but my schedule is giving me fits grrrr) and please post your observations. Also if they do not happen to cover the type of attacks you wonder about or have reservations over the effectiveness both George and Toby are open to questions and able to demonstrate the answers and their opinions. I am sure that Aaron is also cut from the same cloth. 

Good luck and Best wishes sir, I hope that we get a chance to train together sometime in the future

Regards
Brian King


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 17, 2009)

Brian, thats a very informative and gracious post!


----------



## Brian King (Mar 17, 2009)

*Tez3 wrote*


> "Brian, thats a very informative and gracious post! "


 
Thanks Tez3 LOL I am off of work today so have time between loads of laundry and other chores. Reading threads seems so much more productive this time of morning LOL. Thank you for taking the time to post the kind words Tez3 I am a slow type that has to hunt and peck the keyboard and take time posting my thoughts and freely admit it is gratifying when someone says good job (whether we agree or not.) 

Warmest wishes
Brian King


----------



## searcher (Mar 17, 2009)

I agree with Tez3, very nice post.    I applaud you and thank you for the information.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 17, 2009)

I tried to rep your post, Brian, but I must rep others first. 

Daniel


----------



## Hand Sword (Mar 17, 2009)

Joab said:


> I was qouting experts in other arts, your right, I don't know enough to judge Aikido, but I'm convinced it couldn't work against a fast striking style.



You don't know enough but you're convinced???? Huh????? That's an ignorant statement, coming out of both ends. But, ok, each to their own. However, and this isn't meant to be sarcastic, I'm old school, go down to an aikido school and go at it. See what happens. Consider it a learning experience. If you're convinced...no worries.


----------



## Ninebird8 (Mar 17, 2009)

Handsword, I too am old school and at the end of the day that is the ultimate solution. Usually clears up any doubts. And if you win, you get the whole school....LOL....at least it was true in the old days...LOL!


----------



## Joab (Mar 17, 2009)

Brian said:


> *Joab wrote:*
> 
> 
> Joab
> ...


 
The point of my post was not to deride aikido, it was to point out that some systems are less ruthless, such as aikido, than say American Combato. It was a compliment really, only an aside regarding the ineffectiveness of aikido according to Sifu John N. Beal of Greenlake Martial Arts School, and Bradley J. Steiner, founder and 10th degree black belt in American Combato. Sifu Beall told me he challenged a a aikido school to wristlock any of his students punches-he said it could not be done. So did Bradley J. Steiner, they both told me it's impossible. Can't attend your weekend seminar-thanks for the invite-Joab


----------



## Hand Sword (Mar 17, 2009)

:erg:


Impossible??? Can't be done?????? Less lethal?? OMG!!!! I suppose they could take on a whole biker bar, in an all out brawl, not lose their sunglasses or hat during the fight, and not mess up their hair too. LOL! I would suggest that these people are not GM's and that you go somewhere else to take lessons. Let them go train the military with attitudes like that. I give up. Best of luck to you on your path.


----------



## bluekey88 (Mar 17, 2009)

Joab said:


> The point of my post was not to deride aikido, it was to point out that some systems are less ruthless, such as aikido, than say American Combato. It was a compliment really, only an aside regarding the ineffectiveness of aikido according to Sifu John N. Beal of Greenlake Martial Arts School, and Bradley J. Steiner, founder and 10th degree black belt in American Combato. Sifu Beall told me he challenged a a aikido school to wristlock any of his students punches-he said it could not be done. So did Bradley J. Steiner, they both told me it's impossible. Can't attend your weekend seminar-thanks for the invite-Joab


 
Y'know...it' sbeen awhile since I've done aNy Aikido...but it occurs to me that there are other things one can do with a punch other than try to throw on a wrist lock.  In fact, goign for the wrist lock out of the gate seems to me to be the LAST thing a decent Aikidoka, Hapkidoist, Ju-Jitsu practictioner, Taijutsu practitioner, etc. would consider.  

Somehow disrupting the attack and taking the attackers balance comes to mind (atemi, footwork, using the opponents space, blending with their energy, etc).  From there, apply the technqiues that present themselves.

Just sayin'

Peace,
Erik


----------



## Brian King (Mar 17, 2009)

*Joab wrote:*



> only an aside regarding the ineffectiveness of aikido according to Sifu John N. Beal of Greenlake Martial Arts School, and Bradley J. Steiner, founder and 10th degree black belt in American Combato. Sifu Beall told me he challenged a a aikido school to wristlock any of his students punches-he said it could not be done. So did Bradley J. Steiner, they both told me it's impossible.


 

LOL well my mother taught me manners so all I can say is it is a big world and Seattle is a small town with many different views and stories some even based in reality. I myself have been told many things by many people, many of whom had titles and initials and numbers associated with their names, all the promotion and pomp did nothing to disguise the foolishness of their statements nor make me any less foolish for the moments I believed them.



> Can't attend your weekend seminar-thanks for the invite


 
Not my seminar and I didnt invite you. Wouldnt want you telling stories ; ) I told you about a seminar and suggested that you go. It is different than ibeing invited to a seminar. I have hosted seminars and this is not one of them. This seminar is being hosted by Jun at Aikiweb and is being attended by martial artists from all over the United States. I have nothing to do with the seminar other than admiring the work and dedication needed to host and organize such an event. Understand that I try to be precise in my wording for a reason and really dislike it when deliberately misunderstood or misquoted not that I am accusing you of doing so but I am hoping that you understand that in our lives what we say and do has consequences and who we give our support and recommendations to and about reflects on us as people and as martial artists. As careful as I try to be about my wording in posts I am even more careful who I associate with and loan my name whether attending seminars or meeting people.



> I started my journey years ago, but I haven't advanced very far. A lot of starts and stops to be honest along the way.


 
Ah, that must be very frustrating sir. Remember it is not the length of time that makes a journey special and memorable nor is it the destination. It is the quality of the steps and the adversity faced and overcame. Good luck in your journey sir. A journey can be like a train tunnel sir. Dark and long with a bright light at the end. A closed mind can be the same. 



> I don't live in Seattle any longer, I now live in Delaware.


 
Pity but I imagine that you will find quality martial arts and practitioners in your new local. Maybe not a Steiner or Beall but every area has their Steiners and Bealls I suppose. 

The only reason I became involved in this thread is because I thought you were local. You are not so I will now bow out of this thread and let it get back onto topic.

Regards
Brian King


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 18, 2009)

Joab, I think you are missing the point we are trying to make....that it's not the martial arts that are ruthless but the people. You can train in the most brutal style and be a gentle person, you can train in nothing and be a ruthless killer with a coffee mug.
Any style you study can be applied ruthlessly.
Some styles are more subtle than others so you can mistake their intent.
It's probably best not to compare styles as if they were fighting each other, better to look for a style that suits you.


----------



## Hand Sword (Mar 18, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Joab, I think you are missing the point we are trying to make....that it's not the martial arts that are ruthless but the people. You can train in the most brutal style and be a gentle person, you can train in nothing and be a ruthless killer with a coffee mug.
> Any style you study can be applied ruthlessly.
> Some styles are more subtle than others so you can mistake their intent.
> It's probably best not to compare styles as if they were fighting each other, better to look for a style that suits you.


 

What she said!


----------



## seasoned (Mar 18, 2009)

*Originally Posted by Tez3 **

*


			
				Joab said:
			
		

> Hand Sword said:
> 
> 
> > What she said!
> ...


----------



## Joab (Mar 18, 2009)

.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 18, 2009)

Joab said:


> The point of my post was not to deride aikido, it was to point out that some systems are less ruthless, such as aikido, than say American Combato.


Had you just said that and stopped there at the outset, nobody would have criticized your comments. Ueshiba never made any claims of intended ruthlessness regarding Aikido that I am aware of. But you then went on to make judgements about Aikido's _effectiveness_ against other styles, all the while prefacing your comments with "I don't know enough to judge." You are argueing with zero first hand knowledge and relying entirely on anecdotes made by two financially invested individuals:



Joab said:


> It was a compliment really, only an aside regarding the ineffectiveness of aikido according to Sifu John N. Beal of Greenlake Martial Arts School, and Bradley J. Steiner, founder and 10th degree black belt in American Combato. Sifu Beall told me he challenged a a aikido school to wristlock any of his students punches-he said it could not be done. So did Bradley J. Steiner, they both told me it's impossible.


Anecdotes and unverifiable claims. 

If the story is true, which I seriously doubt, all that it means is that these two guys are good at keeping opponents from grabbing their wrists in a controled stunt. Keep in mind that its easy as pie to prevent a technique that you know is coming against an opponent who isn't going to do anything other than try to grab your wrist. Two words for you: Stage Stunt. Looks good and sounds impressive to the inexperienced or uninformed. To the informed, not so much.

And anyway, since when is wristlocking a punch the gauge of Aikido effectiveness. That's like saying that the effectiveness of the shuto is the true measure of karate, while ignoring all of the kicks, punches, blocks, and such. Aikido is about much more than snatching punches out of the air and wristlocking them. 

Daniel


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 18, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Joab, I think you are missing the point we are trying to make....that it's not the martial arts that are ruthless but the people. You can train in the most brutal style and be a gentle person, you can train in nothing and be a ruthless killer with a coffee mug.
> Any style you study can be applied ruthlessly.
> Some styles are more subtle than others so you can mistake their intent.
> It's probably best not to compare styles as if they were fighting each other, better to look for a style that suits you.


QFT.

Daniel


----------



## bluekey88 (Mar 18, 2009)

People are ruthless...MA's are not.  Or to paraphrase a famouse quote:

Martial arts don't kill people...*I* do.



Peace,
Erik


----------



## Joab (Mar 18, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Had you just said that and stopped there at the outset, nobody would have criticized your comments. Ueshiba never made any claims of intended ruthlessness regarding Aikido that I am aware of. But you then went on to make judgements about Aikido's _effectiveness_ against other styles, all the while prefacing your comments with "I don't know enough to judge." You are argueing with zero first hand knowledge and relying entirely on anecdotes made by two financially invested individuals:
> 
> Joab: Yeah, your right, I should have stopped there. Again, I wasn't writing this based on my expertise but rather the two individuals I qouted. But I should have just stopped there, your right.
> 
> ...


 
Well, it was what Sifu Beal talked about when I told him I was considering aikido when I visited his school. Yes, he had a financial stake in convincing me to go to his school, but I believe he and Professor Steiner are correct. And they are the experts, not me, I was merely qouting them. But I shouldn't have brought the issue up.


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 18, 2009)

Joab said:


> Well, it was what Sifu Beal talked about when I told him I was considering aikido when I visited his school. Yes, he had a financial stake in convincing me to go to his school, but I believe he and Professor Steiner are correct. *And they are the experts*, not me, I was merely qouting them. But I shouldn't have brought the issue up.


 

But, are they the experts in AIKIDO?


----------



## Joab (Mar 18, 2009)

Flying Crane said:


> But, are they the experts in AIKIDO?


 
Joab: You can ask Professor Steiner at www.americancombato.com He  wrote an article on aikido in one of the Sword & Pen newsletters on his site, don't recall which month. Don't have a link to Sifu Beal, he teaches Wing Chun, Professor Steiner teaches American Combato.


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 18, 2009)

Joab said:


> Joab: You can ask Professor Steiner at www.americancombato.com He wrote an article on aikido in one of the Sword & Pen newsletters on his site, don't recall which month. Don't have a link to Sifu Beal, he teaches Wing Chun, Professor Steiner teaches American Combato.


 

Are you unable to tell me what his background, if any, is in aikido? Yet you hold him as the expert on aikido's effectiveness?

My point is only that it's easy to cast judgement over an art from the standpoint of an outsider looking in. It's also very very easy for such judgement to be absolutely inaccurate.

Mr. Steiner may well be a skilled martial artist. I have no familiarity with him, or his system, and i have no interest in him or it. But if he has never studied aikido, or only studied it superficially, or studied with a poor teacher, or he simply doesn't have the right "knack" for aikido, then he is not in much of a position to cast judgement over the art as a whole. There are simply too many variables at play, and this goes for any person practicing any art. The quality of their teachers, their own strengths and weaknesses in their ability to learn and integrate the art, etc. Every art has its stellar people, and likewise every art has its failures. Just because someone trained under the best teacher is no guarantee that that person is any good. See what I'm saying? too many variables on a personal level to ever make a broad judgement like that.

There is a real danger in passing judgement from the vantage point of an outsider looking in. You are judging based on the standards of your own experiences, which may be absolutely irrelevant to the art that you are attempting to judge. The art is different, and it probably has some very good reasons for doing things as it does. Just because it is different from what you (or Mr. Steiner) does, doesn't mean it's no good. It just means Mr. Steiner made a sweeping judgement about which he is probably wrong.  The most that he can say is that the art isn't right for him.


----------



## Joab (Mar 18, 2009)

Flying Crane said:


> Are you unable to tell me what his background, if any, is in aikido? Yet you hold him as the expert on aikido's effectiveness?
> 
> Joab: I have no idea if Professor Steiner has ever taken aikido, to answer your question. I know he has two black belts in two different styles of ju jitsu,  an eighth degree black belt in kenpo karate, and a 10th degree black belt in American Combato which he founded, but no, I have no idea if he ever took aikido.


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 18, 2009)

Joab said:


> Flying Crane said:
> 
> 
> > Are you unable to tell me what his background, if any, is in aikido? Yet you hold him as the expert on aikido's effectiveness?
> ...


----------



## Joab (Mar 18, 2009)

Flying Crane said:


> Joab said:
> 
> 
> > Fair enough.
> ...


----------



## Hand Sword (Mar 18, 2009)

Some of your point is fine. The issue is "Aikido *can't* work" because "experts" in *OTHER* styles say so. Ridiculous! Don't you think that Aikido experts can make it work for them? I'd say absoluetly. At least as well as your "experts" make their way work for them. The Ju jitsu holds work for your guys just fine, (as he stayed long enough and earned belts in it) but, the same or similar holds won't work for Aikido people because...they're Aikido practitioners? That's foolish.

Unfortunately, the MA's are not about "hearsay" it's about doing, and finding out for yourself. So, as I suggested, go find out for yourself, then come to a conclusion, just like normal people do. There is no harm in that. It's all apart of growing as a person and an artist.


----------



## Hand Sword (Mar 18, 2009)

Perhaps this thread could be moved into the Aikido section, since it is regarding their art? Maybe some of the experts in there can shed a better light and address Joab's thoughts/concerns?


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 19, 2009)

Joab said:


> Well, it was what Sifu Beal talked about when I told him I was considering aikido when I visited his school. Yes, he had a financial stake in convincing me to go to his school, but I believe he and Professor Steiner are correct. And they are the experts, not me, I was merely qouting them. But I shouldn't have brought the issue up.


It isn't that you brought it up; you're a member here and are welcome to bring up subjects and post your opinion.

But when you go about making assertions that can only be supported by defering to the opinions of two other individuals, opinions which may or may not be valid, expect to be called on it.

Also, these gents may hold high in their respective arts of Combato and Wing Chun.  But that doesn't make them experts regarding Aikido.  It just means that they've been teaching their arts for a while.  That is all.

I could sit here and quote ad nauseum the horrible things that people on the web say about Wing Chun, some of whom claim expertise and experience with the art (you mentioned Bullshido, where such threads seem to spring up at a rate of about five per day).  But since I don't know thing one about WC aside from that it involves striking and has trapping maneuvers and that Bruce Lee got started in it, I keep my mouth shut.  I haven't practiced with any WC practitioners, thus I have no first hand knowledge.  

There are tons of stories about WC guys of high rank getting humiliated or of only being able to win by falling back on another MA, but that's all that they are: stories.

I made numerous points in my post, with your only response being that two guys, one of whom had a financial interest in talking you out of Aikido, have told you.

Wrist locking a moving punch is kind of cool, but it is like high kicks in taekwondo; nice if you can pull it off, but hardly the meat and potatoes of the art.  there are other techniques in Aikido for dealing with punches, and there are also varying types of punches.  Wrist locking a reverse punch or a backfist, for example, is much more accomplishable than wristlocking a jab. 

Incidentally, if these guys are challenging a bunch of students to try to grab their wrists when they punch, don't you think that they'll throw their punches specifically to keep them from being grabbed?  That isn't the same as actually trying to strike an opponent; the object has changed from inflicting injury to showing off how quick your hands are.

Since you don't know the specifics of the story (type of punch, dynamic or static sparring, experience level of the Aikidoka, which school, any stipulations that may have been made in the challenge) and have no means of verifying it, please stop using it as support for an uninformed statement.  It makes you look foolish. 

Also, its kind of like someone else calling you a name behind your back, then me going on the internet and saying that you must be a real (insert name) because such and such said so, and he's to ten dots in his rep, so he must be an expert.  Don't you think that it's a poor attempt at a save to say, 'I didn't say it, I was only repeating what someone else said.  I don't know you well enough to judge you, but such and such said it.'   

That is the sort of nonsense that you see in middle school and high school.  I think that from other posts that you've made in other threads that you're more mature than that, and honestly better than that.

Daniel


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 19, 2009)

Joab said:


> Well, this forum seems to be the opposite of the bullshido forum which is good. I think they go way too far the other way. At any rate, my point in my post was not to denigrate aikido so much as to point out that some systems techniques are far less ruthless than others.


I'd agree with you here, though I'd substitute the word damaging for ruthless.  



Joab said:


> I also pointed out that aikido had a beautiful philosophy. unfortunately I also qouted two experts from other arts that told me aikido can't work, and this is where the controversy began.


The controversy wasn't that you quoted them, but that their comments are unverifiable and you don't have the expertise to evaluate their comments.  Yet you used them to support an assertion that 'Aikido can't work against fast striking styles.'  

No worries.  Its just a discussion.



Joab said:


> I'll never take aikido so I'll never know, if somebody gets something from it more power to him.


Why not?  Why close that door?  Never rule out learning another style, even if only for a few months to get a feel for it.  Often, it will teach you some things about the style you already are familiar with, as you will see different approaches to the same problems offered.  In fact, cross training can improve your core martial art, though given that you've said that you're a beginner, I'd suggest getting a solid foundation in a core art first before branching off.

Daniel


----------



## TigerCraneGuy (Mar 19, 2009)

Hi Joab,

As one Christian MAist to another, remember the Lord's advice: test everything!

Be careful of what so-called 'experts' purport to be 'truth'. As you progress further into the MA world, you'll find that the number of stripes on one's black belt may well mean zip unless they were earned. 

And even so, rank (true or bogus) does not equate to infallibility. No one has all the answers. And in terms of Art-X Vs Art-Y, it all comes down to the practitioner, not the style.

Lastly, I agree with others here that ruthlessness is more a mindset / attitude / philosophy than a descriptor for any particular art. Every style, in fact, has its share of 'gentle' and 'lethal' techniques. For example, in my system (Kenpo 5.0), we have a range of options from simple deflective parries, striking blocks, and rib-punches, to full-on eye-shots, throat strikes, and neck-breaks. 

There is a time and place for everything. The key is to know when and where to employ each option appropriately.

Hope this helps.

Regards,
TCG


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 20, 2009)

DoubleZ711 said:


> what do you guys think is the most ruthless martial art that is publicly taught?


Since we've pretty much established that it is the person who is ruthless, not the art, I'd like to restate your quesiton:

what do you guys think is the most *damaging* martial art that is publicly taught?



DoubleZ711 said:


> Don't talk about some art that no one has ever heard of, I am strictly speaking about something one can actually find a place to train in it.


To do you the courtesy of answering your question, United States political office.  You attain a high enough grade (president) and you have access to an entire military, secret service, and most importantly, the button.  Push the button, cities go boom.  There you are: most ruthless.  Happy? 

You seem to have this preocupation with the idea of ruthlessness; you've posted other threads since this one about not wanting anything "sport based" and mention karate and taekwondo as being sport based.  You obviously have no clue what you're talking about regarding the foundations of these arts.

What are *you* after for yourself?  

This whole idea of training in the "most ruthless art" is the windmill jousting of MA.  As Joab pointed out, if you learn the most damaging techniques but don't have the mindset to apply them, then there really isn't much point.

Lastly, since you don't seem to respond to any of your own threads past the OP, you're looking more and more like a troll, especially after that 'white people' remark on your kung fu thread.

Daniel


----------



## Shotgun Buddha (Mar 20, 2009)

Side-stepping the very valid point that arts are not ruthless, people are, there's still a few things that need to be clarified.
The main one of course being what definition of ruthless we are talking about here. Especially because what being ruthless actually involves is decided entirely by your objective. And also remembering that to be ruthless does not mean simply willing to perform any action to achieve your goals, it also means the willingness to endure any action by others if necessary.
For example Gandhi could be considered one of the most ruthless men in history because of his willingness to endure anything for his objective of pacificism.
What this means in relation to martial arts, is that an art could be incredibly ruthless in its apporach to dealing out damage and destruction to survive, but fail to be truly ruthless as it never address how to endure any damage that might occur.


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 20, 2009)

I am the most ruthless.  I rip the spinal cords from newborn babies, and I laugh all the while!

Top that, ya yellow-bellied knee-knockers!


----------



## Shotgun Buddha (Mar 20, 2009)

I bludgeoned a man to death. Using another man.


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 20, 2009)

Shotgun Buddha said:


> I bludgeoned a man to death. Using another man.


 
oohhh, I RESPECT that!


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 20, 2009)

Huh! I *married* a man!!


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 20, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Huh! I *married* a man!!


 
leave 'im alone, ya cold-hearted bastard!


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 20, 2009)

Flying Crane said:


> leave 'im alone, ya cold-hearted bastard!


 

:whip1:     :lfao:


----------



## Bruno@MT (Mar 20, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Huh! I *married* a man!!



LOL

I can honestly say that I have never looked so damaged and beaten up as when I was sempai in a women's self defense class.

It took a long time for most of the ladies before they could come to grips with the concept of hurting someone. But when it happened, it was like a dam that burst. Even when I ended up in fetal position on account of being hit square in the nuts with a steel capped purse, she just kept kicking, punching and swinging that purse.

Conversation in the train, the day after:
'Man, who beat you up?'
'An 80 pound woman wearing a fluffy bunny sweater'

And that is not even including the scratches on my face and the burn marks on my neck from the purse string that was ripped around my throat.


----------



## clfsean (Mar 20, 2009)

Thesemindz said:


> I think the most ruthless martial art is the irish art of Fuk-Yu.
> 
> It's mostly just headbutting people and then kicking them while they're on the ground.
> 
> ...



That's Scottish... not Irish...


----------



## Bruno@MT (Mar 20, 2009)

Flying Crane said:


> I am the most ruthless.  I rip the spinal cords from newborn babies, and I laugh all the while!
> 
> Top that, ya yellow-bellied knee-knockers!



I once flipped out and killed an entire town when some kid opened a window.
Afterwards I wailed on my guitar.

:lfao:


----------



## Thems Fighting Words (Mar 20, 2009)

Flying Crane said:


> I am the most ruthless.  I rip the spinal cords from newborn babies, and I laugh all the while!
> 
> Top that, ya yellow-bellied knee-knockers!



I go on forums and ask loaded questions causing people who read them to suffer terminal brain hemorrhages. Those whose Chi is developed to a level that stops such brain death, will end up suffering arthritis of the hand as they attempt to type a meaningful response. :EG:


----------



## Slihn (Mar 20, 2009)

DoubleZ711 said:


> This may turn into an argument, but what do you guys think is the most ruthless martial art that is publicly taught? Don't talk about some art that no one has ever heard of, I am strictly speaking about something one can actually find a place to train in it.


 

Acutally all Martial Arts are ruthless. All martial arts where created from war arts and they all have the same goal (to rendener the attacker helpless). The only martial art that I know of that considers mercy is Aikido.


----------



## DoubleZ711 (Mar 25, 2009)

Hey guys, I know its quite late in the discussion, but just to clarify, I was trying to ask which Martial Arts had the widest array of ruthless techniques. Anyways, I have already found the answer I was looking for in an art called Krav-Maga, but thanks! Sorry for all the arguments my simple question caused. LOL


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 25, 2009)

DoubleZ711 said:


> Hey guys, I know its quite late in the discussion, but just to clarify, I was trying to ask which Martial Arts had the widest array of ruthless techniques. Anyways, I have already found the answer I was looking for in an art called Krav-Maga, but thanks! Sorry for all the arguments my simple question caused. LOL


 

so are you saying that you are satisfied with the "ruthlessness" that you've found in krav maga?  Or that KM is the MOST ruthless that you've found?  Or this particular instructor of KM takes a "ruthless" approach to training and teaching and can therefore teach you to be "ruthless" on the level that you want, regardless of what a different KM instructor might do?  

It's still a bit of an odd way to look at the big picture...

I don't know KM, i've never studied it, i've never watched Youtube clips of it, I've never read about it, so I cannot speak for or against it as an art in any way.  But I've studied enough things, and I've seen enough things to be able to say with much confidence and much sincerity that NO ART, including KM, holds the monopoly on nasty, brutal, destructive, deadly, mean, sick, twisted, horrifying, terrifying, psychopathic techniques.  You can find that kind of thing in most arts.  But again, much of it depends on the approach that the instructor takes, and how the art is taught.

If you are happy with the KM that you've found, then good luck to ya.  Hope it is all that you were looking for.


----------



## Slihn (Mar 26, 2009)

crushing said:


> I see ruthlessness as being a characteristic of a person or practitioner, not as a component of an art.


 
Very true!


----------



## chinto (Mar 27, 2009)

DoubleZ711 said:


> Hey guys, I know its quite late in the discussion, but just to clarify, I was trying to ask which Martial Arts had the widest array of ruthless techniques. Anyways, I have already found the answer I was looking for in an art called Krav-Maga, but thanks! Sorry for all the arguments my simple question caused. LOL




ok, any of the traditional arts have most all that is in KM and usually a lot more techniques actually. 

Krav Maga was designed and developed as a 'troop style' to be taught rapidly with a minimum of time and effort to allow a conscript in the Isriali military to survive a hand to hand encounter with other conscripts.  it was not really intended to be a style that would face skilled martial artists with years of training in unarmed combat as that is just not something they normally incounter on a battlefield. 

 but if you are happy with what you have found and how it is taught and all, Great! good luck and train hard. 

But as i said before, ruthlessness is in the practitioner and not the art really. 
most every older art has techniques that readily main cripple and kill. so again its about what and how its used more then what it is. intent and aplication of that art by the practioner is what makes it a so called Ruthless art or not.


----------



## Shizen Shigoku (Mar 27, 2009)

clfsean said:


> That's Scottish... not Irish...



Yes, and then you toss a caber on them!

And then wail on your bagpipes...

*that* is ruthless!


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 28, 2009)

Flying Crane said:


> so are you saying that you are satisfied with the "ruthlessness" that you've found in krav maga? Or that KM is the MOST ruthless that you've found? Or this particular instructor of KM takes a "ruthless" approach to training and teaching and can therefore teach you to be "ruthless" on the level that you want, regardless of what a different KM instructor might do?
> 
> It's still a bit of an odd way to look at the big picture...
> 
> ...


 

I don't think he's found that KM is as ruthless as he thought since he was complaining on another thread that the KM instructor was ...gasp... a woman (a white one at that)!

I don't think a whit of what we've explained about the difference between an art being ruthless and the person has penetrated even a quarter of an inch into his brain. However I await with lack of interest his next post on his unique approach to MA.


----------



## bluekey88 (Mar 28, 2009)

Shizen Shigoku said:


> Yes, and then you toss a caber on them!
> 
> And then wail on your bagpipes...
> 
> *that* is ruthless!


 
That's not ruthless...force feeding them haggis is ruthless...

Mind you, I never dislkiked the stuff myself, but still....as Mike Myers said in "So I Married an Axe Murderer"...Scottish cuisine is based mostly on a dare 

I kid 'cause I love.

Peace,
Erik


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 28, 2009)

bluekey88 said:


> That's not ruthless...force feeding them haggis is ruthless...
> 
> Mind you, I never dislkiked the stuff myself, but still....as Mike Myers said in "So I Married an Axe Murderer"...Scottish cuisine is based mostly on a dare
> 
> ...


 
Deep fried Mars bars anyone?


----------



## chinto (Mar 29, 2009)

tez3 said:


> deep fried mars bars anyone?




lol!!!


----------



## CHAOS (Apr 6, 2009)

I think what you are looking for is a system that teaches "real world" techniques and principals. Most systems that are publicly taught are "commercialized" and focus on how long they can keep you interested and paying. Or, they are worried about offending little Johnny's Mom, and losing him as a student. If you want to be able to defend yourself and use your training in the real world, in a law enforcement capacity, or on a modern battlefield, you need a system that utilizes off balancing, triangulation, and generation of power for strikes. You cannot find everthing you need in one "style". But, you will need to find a system that fits your body structure, and abilities, and stick with it for an extended period of time. In my 24 years of training I have seen a few systems that are great base systems for what you are looking for. Aiki-jitsu, Ken jitsu, Systema, Krav Maga, and Gung-Fu are just a few. I recomend these only because they use body mechanics, not just flashy moves, in their techniques. If an instructor cannot use a "Grays Anatomy" book to show you why you are doing a technique, it's probably a useless art.


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 6, 2009)

CHAOS said:


> I think what you are looking for is a system that teaches "real world" techniques and principals. Most systems that are publicly taught are "commercialized" and focus on how long they can keep you interested and paying. Or, they are worried about offending little Johnny's Mom, and losing him as a student. If you want to be able to defend yourself and use your training in the real world, in a law enforcement capacity, or on a modern battlefield, you need a system that utilizes off balancing, triangulation, and generation of power for strikes. You cannot find everthing you need in one "style". But, you will need to find a system that fits your body structure, and abilities, and stick with it for an extended period of time. In my 24 years of training I have seen a few systems that are great base systems for what you are looking for. Aiki-jitsu, Ken jitsu, Systema, Krav Maga, and Gung-Fu are just a few. I recomend these only because they use body mechanics, not just flashy moves, in their techniques. If an instructor cannot use a "Grays Anatomy" book to show you why you are doing a technique, it's probably a useless art.


 

Going on all the previous posts by the OP what he wants is a 'deadly' art only taught by white straight men.


----------



## just2kicku (Apr 6, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Going on all the previous posts by the OP what he wants is a 'deadly' art only taught by white straight men.



And it can't be kung fu!


----------



## Thems Fighting Words (Apr 6, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Going on all the previous posts by the OP what he wants is a 'deadly' art only taught by white straight men.


But didn't they cause the economic collapse? Especially the blonde, blue eyed ones.



just2kicku said:


> And it can't be kung fu!


Nah, Kung-Fu is fine, as long as the instructor isn't too non-White. David Carradine is good but no Bruce Lees please.



This is so off topic but I'm just gonna have to go with the flow. The question has been answered and I hope someone has learnt something somewhere.


----------



## Joab (Apr 6, 2009)

Krav maga can be as ruthless as any other, it depends upon what techniques you use. There are kill blows and there are those that merely stun your opponent. And I did pass level one some years ago, so I do know a little about this (Very little, granted, but still a valid little amount.)  

While any martial art can be used ruthlessly, certainly some are more offensive oriented than defensive oriented. There are almost no blocks at all in American Combato, the philosophy is attack the attacker. You don't really react in any defensive way to an attack, but rather counter attack, looking for the opening and doing what needs to be done efficiently to stop the attack. This could even include killing the attacker if the attack upon you warranted such a drastic action.

Than there are forms like aikido that are primarily defensive forms. The philosophy is more like "If you have to fight you have already lost" (This was told to me by an aikido practitioner) or the "in aikido you seek to be neither victor or victim" Told to me by somebody who didn't particularly like aikido. But even in aikido, it could be used ruthlessly, if the attack upon the aikido practitoner was powerful enough, the ensuing throw by the aikido practitioner might indeed kill the attacker especially if the attacker landed on his head on concrete. And I was told by a friend who studied both judo and aikido that aikido throws are harder than judo throws.

In summation, I am in agreement that any art can be used ruthlessly depending on the martial artist employing it. My only point really is that some are more ruthless, or at the very least, more offensive minded than others in philosophy. And I'm sure all are equally valid depending on the skill of the practitioner...


----------



## BLACK LION (Apr 7, 2009)

If you are looking for something with just ruthlessness in mind then you have a long road ahead my friend. 
You cannot teach people to be ruthless... it is a path one has to choose themselves. Then again, you cannot be ruthless if you are not assertive and decisive. If you are not instincitvely ready to act on a moments notice you cannot be ruthless. Part of being professional...part of setting ourselves apart from evil is the ability to control our actions and the ability to take the just and righteous path. You cannot be truly righteously ruthless without a sound mind and body. Same reason they dont put a live firearm in the hands of a SEAL canidate on the first day of BUDS.


----------



## MJS (Apr 7, 2009)

chinto said:


> ok, any of the traditional arts have most all that is in KM and usually a lot more techniques actually.


 
True to a point, however, IMO, one of the main differences, is the simplicity.  That is what makes a big difference.



> Krav Maga was designed and developed as a 'troop style' to be taught rapidly with a minimum of time and effort to allow a conscript in the Isriali military to survive a hand to hand encounter with other conscripts. it was not really intended to be a style that would face skilled martial artists with years of training in unarmed combat as that is just not something they normally incounter on a battlefield.


 
Are you saying that KM is not effective against a martial artist?  Someone trained in TKD, Kenpo or Shotokan?  




> But as i said before, ruthlessness is in the practitioner and not the art really.


 
Yes, I agree with this.


----------



## eggg1994 (Dec 23, 2010)

when i think a martial art as ruthless i think the practioner because its not the art but the practioner. when i think about the practioner i think of the teacher at the cobra ki dojo who's moto is show no mercy in this dojo, mercy is for the weak, our enemy only deserve's pain. that is my example of a ruthless martial artist.


----------



## Kittan Bachika (Dec 24, 2010)

There are Goju Ryu schools who practice everything, except for kumite. But they can do some serious damage from their training. There are people who say that it is useless because they are not stress tested. But in order to see if those techniques work, they might hurt someone or worse.

Aikido, which has no sparring is pretty dangerous, especially in the wrong hands. Some people argue that an Aikido practitioner would be in trouble if they got punched. But is kind of hard to punch if your wrist is broken.

Depending on the teacher and the student. All styles are ruthless.


----------



## Josh Oakley (Dec 24, 2010)

Roshambo is the most ruthless. There is only one technique and one purpose.


----------



## billc (Dec 24, 2010)

Sorry, the most ruthless out there is is the sun source of all martial arts, Sinanju.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Dec 24, 2010)

Any art that practices or advocates air chokes, would fall into that catagory.
Sean


----------



## jda (Dec 25, 2010)

My wife when she's angry is far and away the most ruthless.


----------



## Josh Oakley (Dec 25, 2010)

Touch Of Death said:


> Any art that practices or advocates air chokes, would fall into that catagory.
> Sean


 
How about Sith-Ryu? It began a long, long time ago in a galaxy far, far away. Very possibly, it remained uninfluenced by sinanju.


----------



## chinto (Dec 27, 2010)

it is not the art, or the weapon that kills, it is the hard heart and the hand with intent.

it is the man who kills, is ruthless or not.  KM is good for what it is for. one of its bigest edges in many encounters would be that they teach intent and demand that the student practice the idea of intent.  

but Km is not the only art that is taught that way.  once again. its the man, not the art.


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 28, 2010)

chinto said:


> it is not the art, or the weapon that kills, it is the hard heart and the hand with intent.
> 
> it is the man who kills, is ruthless or not. KM is good for what it is for. one of its bigest edges in many encounters would be that they teach intent and demand that the student practice the idea of intent.
> 
> but Km is not the only art that is taught that way. once again. its the man, not the art.


 
It doesn't have to be hard heart and it doesn't have to be a man, the most ruthless person could well be a mother who's child is in danger. Hurt or try to hurt my kids and trust me you will die slowly screaming and I don't care how big or how strong you are. The power of a mother is amazing.


----------



## Shifu Steve (Dec 29, 2010)

Kittan Bachika said:


> Aikido, which has no sparring is pretty dangerous, especially in the wrong hands. Some people argue that an Aikido practitioner would be in trouble if they got punched. But is kind of hard to punch if your wrist is broken.
> 
> Depending on the teacher and the student. All styles are ruthless.



I would say all styles have the potential to be utilized in a ruthless manner.  However, some lend themselves to ruthlessness more than others.  The idea behind a style like Aikido is peaceful.  That's not to say it can't be used to inflict harm.  However, there are styles I've seen in CMA that contain eye gouges, tendon manipulation (tearing), breaks, etc.  I would say in these cases the style is meeting the practitioner half way when it comes to violence (again, not that it has to be used that way).


----------



## clfsean (Dec 29, 2010)

Shifu Steve said:


> I would say all styles have the potential to be utilized in a ruthless manner.



Yep



Shifu Steve said:


> However, some lend themselves to ruthlessness more than others.



I'd replace ruthlessness with directness, however they all have the quality.



Shifu Steve said:


> The idea behind a style like Aikido is peaceful.



I dunno... ever see old video of Ueshiba? He wasn't terribly peaceful. Definitely peaceful in the idea of locking & pressure as opposed to out & out breaking. My experience with aikido lends me to think of a joke just below the surface on the "peaceful" aspect.



Shifu Steve said:


> That's not to say it can't be used to inflict harm.



Oh... it does that handily. 



Shifu Steve said:


> However, there are styles I've seen in CMA that contain eye gouges, tendon manipulation (tearing), breaks, etc.



That's every TCMA style I've encountered. I'd like to see one that doesn't.



Shifu Steve said:


> I would say in these cases the style is meeting the practitioner half way when it comes to violence (again, not that it has to be used that way).



Violence is metered by the desire to survive. The style is just a method of training to ensure I have a better than average chance to survive.


----------



## Hudson69 (Dec 29, 2010)

I will take this to mean a system that espouses the most efficient techniques with no regard for damage done to the person you are attacking/defending against.......

I would say Krav Maga or some of the other law enforcement systems but not all.  My biased opinion only.


----------



## Shifu Steve (Dec 30, 2010)

clfsean said:


> That's every TCMA style I've encountered. I'd like to see one that doesn't.



The joint and bone breaks in Tai Chi I can see from watching some of the forms.  I have not seen an overt reference to an eye gouge in a Tai Chi form, but I'll admit I've had limited exposure.


----------



## elmerq (Dec 30, 2010)

DoubleZ711 said:


> This may turn into an argument, but what do you guys think is the most ruthless martial art that is publicly taught? Don't talk about some art that no one has ever heard of, I am strictly speaking about something one can actually find a place to train in it.



I would argue that in terms of ruthlessness and unforgiving, I would consider the Southeastern Asian Martial Arts to be the most ruthless.  The filipino martial arts and Silat probably has the most deadliest of the martial arts, because the art is simply a deadly art.

I know that many other arts are deadly.  I see the ruthless factor in any art, but no other art I've seen has matched the ruthlessnes of the Filipino and Silat martial arts.  In terms of percussiveness, weaponry, and even empty hand... the art really is made for self-defense.

I've studied the style for almost seven years, it's not forgiving at all and honestly, it's not something I'd teach everyone.

I may have disagreements, but it's ok.  Take my opinion as my opinion.


----------



## elmerq (Dec 30, 2010)

jda said:


> My wife when she's angry is far and away the most ruthless.



Funny...I'd put my wife in the same category also. LOL.


----------

