# "Off the mat" behaviour?



## Carol (Dec 16, 2013)

At dinner the other night, a few of us were talking about a few athletes who made headlines (in a bad way) for their off-the-field behaviour.  

That left me wondering....many MA schools have some sort of code of conduct.  Does "off-the-mat" behaviour concern anyone?  

Has anyone here actually been faced with the prospect of confronting a student due to their behaviour when they were NOT on the mat?  

If you haven't, what sort of scenario -- if any -- would lead you to consider confronting a student about their behaviour off the mat?


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## donald1 (Dec 16, 2013)

In my class I've had several cases where people act up after class (mainly children)  there's always some logic reason to it.  There's many reasons but the biggest one I seen was because of upbringing (sometimes the parents bad teaching or sibling peer pressure) 

When someone acts up in a disrespectful or negative way usually it can affect whether they may test or not.  That or stop teaching them advanced techniques until they fix there problem (a way we fixed a lot of it was we offered advice and had possible rewards if the problems were fixed) usually the rewards might be higher chance to test or getting to continue working on the advanced forms 

I don't know if that is the case or not but regardless,  best of luck teaching


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 16, 2013)

Act like a 

- tiger when you are on the mat. 
- sheep when you are off the mat.


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## punisher73 (Dec 17, 2013)

I believe it does.  Back when I taught a class through community education, I would try very hard to instill good values and did have to address some students along the way when it came to my attention that they were using their skills to try and bully other children.  

I have been in class where the instructor has taken to task some adult students who were not acting in an appropriate manner at a big function where kids were present.

I think that it should matter, at the very least, I wouldn't want people thinking bad about my school/style because people were acting like jerks in public and were associated with us.  It is very easy to be judged by the actions of a few.


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## DennisBreene (Dec 17, 2013)

I would have serious concern about someone who is using their training off the mat for inappropriate reasons. I would define that as any use that is not justifiable self defense or defense of others or use related to their job.  In other areas, I would certainly consider confronting anyone who I thought had indications of problems such as depression, substance abuse or other mental illness, in order to try to get them into treatment; just as I would for anyone I knew who was not involved in martial arts.


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## Gnarlie (Dec 17, 2013)

I would stop people wearing their uniform on the way to and from the Dojang. Especially those who visit the supermarket before or after, for example. Not only is it unwise from a personal safety perspective, it reflects badly on the club. 

Gnarlie


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## seasoned (Dec 17, 2013)

Some of the best lessons in life were taught to me while on the "mat". Mutual respect, how to treat other people, fairness, what goes around comes around. From the moment we bow in and until we bow out we are learning how to interact with other people. All promotions are based on technical ability and the carry over in life of these principles mentioned above.


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 17, 2013)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Act like a
> 
> - tiger when you are on the mat.
> - sheep when you are off the mat.


When do I get to be a dragon?


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## ballen0351 (Dec 17, 2013)

Gnarlie said:


> I would stop people wearing their uniform on the way to and from the Dojang. Especially those who visit the supermarket before or after, for example. Not only is it unwise from a personal safety perspective, it reflects badly on the club.
> 
> Gnarlie



Why I wear my uniform pants to and from class usually with a sweat shirt or jacket and I stop some times to pick things up.  I've never had a safety problem in a grocery store.  If you need to worry about being attacked in your grocery store because of what your wearing you need to find a new store to shop in.


The closest thing we have is for kids we send home questionaires for teachers and parents to fill out before testing times that ask about behavior issues at home and in school.  If a teacher or parent has too many neg.  Things written down the kid isn't allowed to test.


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## Gnarlie (Dec 17, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> Why I wear my uniform pants to and from class usually with a sweat shirt or jacket and I stop some times to pick things up.  I've never had a safety problem in a grocery store.  If you need to worry about being attacked in your grocery store because of what your wearing you need to find a new store to shop in.
> 
> 
> The closest thing we have is for kids we send home questionaires for teachers and parents to fill out before testing times that ask about behavior issues at home and in school.  If a teacher or parent has too many neg.  Things written down the kid isn't allowed to test.



1 I lived in a crappy area and swanning around in  a uniform is asking for trouble

2 There are changing facilities and shower at the Dojang so there's no reason to do it

3 Cold sweat is pretty nasty

4 The uniform is for practicing in

5 It looks bad on the school when stinky people are in the supermarket queue

Gnarlie


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## Forever Training (Dec 17, 2013)

Touch Of Death said:


> When do I get to be a dragon?



If you need to ask, you have a ways to go, grasshopper. :wink2:


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## Forever Training (Dec 17, 2013)

seasoned said:


> Some of the best lessons in life were taught to me while on the "mat". Mutual respect, how to treat other people, fairness, what goes around comes around. From the moment we bow in and until we bow out we are learning how to interact with other people. All promotions are based on technical ability and the carry over in life of these principles mentioned above.



Our kids are told there are only 3 rules in the dojo: Self-control, Self-discipline and Respect.
Of course little do they realize this encompasses just about everything.


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## ballen0351 (Dec 17, 2013)

Gnarlie said:


> 1 I lived in a crappy area and swanning around in  a uniform is asking for trouble
> 
> 2 There are changing facilities and shower at the Dojang so there's no reason to do it
> 
> ...



I disagree but whatever floats your boat.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 17, 2013)

Gnarlie said:


> I would stop people wearing their uniform on the way to and from the Dojang. Especially those who visit the supermarket before or after, for example. Not only is it unwise from a personal safety perspective, it reflects badly on the club.
> 
> Gnarlie



I've heard this. Many times. What I haven't ever seen, though, is any evidence that anybody has ever been attacked simply because they left their uniform on. Nor do I see how wearing the uniform outside the school "reflects badly" on said school. I wear scrubs outside the hospital all the time. Does this somehow reflect badly on our ER? Scrubs, dobak... they're just fabric, and there's not even a whole lot of difference between them.

A students behavior, though, does reflect on the school to some extent. To be allowed to test, our students not only have to know the material, they also have live up to expectations outside of school. About 3 months ago, a 4th geup was returned to 10th. The color of the belt means a great deal to him, and he's worked hard in and out of the dojang to regain his rank. I think he'll be testing for 3rd geup in February or March.


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## Tenacious_Red (Dec 17, 2013)

Carol said:


> At dinner the other night, a few of us were talking about a few athletes who made headlines (in a bad way) for their off-the-field behaviour.
> 
> That left me wondering....many MA schools have some sort of code of conduct.  Does "off-the-mat" behaviour concern anyone?
> 
> ...




A decade ago, some peers (early 20's) from a school thought it would be cool to start their own fight club and teach each other techniques from their "fighting" backgrounds. This became destructive in a few ways:

- Teaching your art when you should not be, and to those who want to abuse that information
- Beating people to a pulp at times with no medic or referee to interfere, allowing serious injuries to occur (what caused the means to an end of the fight club)
- Leaving one particular dojo with a bad name because the majority of the fighters trained there and when a major incident happened, everyone turned on the instructor's attitude towards the public's perception of MA 

In the end, the students were banned from local MA training facilities, suspended from jobs (a couple were in law enforcement/corrections) and lawsuits flew all over the place. Luckily the dojo stayed unharmed financially but its reputation on the other hand was beaten.


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## Carol (Dec 17, 2013)

Gnarlie said:


> I would stop people wearing their uniform on the way to and from the Dojang. Especially those who visit the supermarket before or after, for example. Not only is it unwise from a personal safety perspective, it reflects badly on the club.
> 
> Gnarlie



Yeah, there have been times when that person was me.  

My first school had no changing areas, no showers, very little room for personal space and to be honest, very little room for students.  We were strongly encouraged to come to class fully dressed.  I would usually change at work and then head to class.  Being a white belt and not at all accustomed to the uniform, I preferred to get dressed in front of the mirror so I knew I had everything tied right and in place.  

 A couple of times I made a quick stop in to one place or another because I had to get a bite or a drink before class.  Never had any threats to my personal safety.  I did experience some minor annoyances, such as my uniform getting stained from spilled coffee or grease from the gas pump.  Usually the only people I encountered were folks an old friend calls the "Joeys" -- the people that want to talk to you about their friend/cousin/offspring "Joey" who also "does karate".  Wasn't my favorite practice but I made do with what I had.


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## Tenacious_Red (Dec 17, 2013)

Gnarlie said:


> I would stop people wearing their uniform on the way to and from the Dojang. Especially those who visit the supermarket before or after, for example. Not only is it unwise from a personal safety perspective, it reflects badly on the club.
> 
> Gnarlie



This actually reminded me, and a bit off subject, but there have been issues with people who abuse uniforms in public. Not necessarily being a target, but making an appearance and perhaps milking it for what it's worth. Such as corrections officers and dispatchers who wear the same uniform as the deputies of their county. And in these scenarios, they were getting LEO discounts at stores and on food. Although, what really brought the issue to light was that a dispatcher was present during an emergency call in a uniform, did not respond (of course) to the public's liking, because the public thought she was a deputy. Caused some confusion. 

Side note, I have been told, "if you are going to wear your uniform in public, wear it appropriately and make sure it's tidy in appearance and be respectful."


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## Tenacious_Red (Dec 17, 2013)

Carol said:


> Yeah, there have been times when that person was me.
> 
> My first school had no changing areas, no showers, very little room for personal space and to be honest, very little room for students.  We were strongly encouraged to come to class fully dressed.  I would usually change at work and then head to class.  Being a white belt and not at all accustomed to the uniform, I preferred to get dressed in front of the mirror so I knew I had everything tied right and in place.
> 
> A couple of times I made a quick stop in to one place or another because I had to get a bite or a drink before class.  Never had any threats to my personal safety.  I did experience some minor annoyances, such as my uniform getting stained from spilled coffee or grease from the gas pump.  Usually the only people I encountered were folks an old friend calls the "Joeys" -- the people that want to talk to you about their friend/cousin/offspring "Joey" who also "does karate".  Wasn't my favorite practice but I made do with what I had.




I have to...well I had to (changing schools right now) change at work before class, because I would get to class right on time, and no room to change. Other than having all my co-workers bow at me the last 15 minutes on clock, I had no real issues either.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 17, 2013)

Tenacious_Red said:


> I have to...well I had to (changing schools right now) change at work before class, because I would get to class right on time, and no room to change. Other than having all my co-workers bow at me the last 15 minutes on clock, I had no real issues either.



Correct their technique on the bow, and also insist that they genuflect. That'll take care of that.


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## Tenacious_Red (Dec 17, 2013)

Dirty Dog said:


> Correct their technique on the bow, and also insist that they genuflect. That'll take care of that.




*smiles* Indeed. They do it before entering my office, and it's quite the humorous topic...I also hate working in the daytime (worked graves for many years and outside) so I keep it dark (window facing southern sun blacked out) with very low mood lighting. I asked for stalactites and albino mice, and I hang my weapons on the walls with various scrolls. Between all of that, my job title and Batman cup I drink out of, they have insisted I am the female Dark Knight.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 17, 2013)

Touch Of Death said:


> When do I get to be a dragon?


We don't know how a dragon may behavior but we do know how a tiger may behavior - trying to eat your opponent alive.


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## Tenacious_Red (Dec 17, 2013)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> We don't know how a dragon may behavior but we do know how a tiger may behavior - trying to eat your opponent alive.




Oh but we do...

"Puff, the magic dragon lived by the sea 
And frolicked in the autumn mist in a land called Honah Lee"

So said Peter, Paul & Mary and whoever else.


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## donald1 (Dec 17, 2013)

Gnarlie said:


> I would stop people wearing their uniform on the way to and from the Dojang. Especially those who visit the supermarket before or after, for example. Not only is it unwise from a personal safety perspective, it reflects badly on the club.
> 
> Gnarlie



Also you get the attention of annoying people,  I can't count the times I heard someone say "hey your in karate show me one of those techniques" or worse some try start fights


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## Gnarlie (Dec 17, 2013)

I didn't think that would be so controversial. I can understand if there is no changing facility, but it's easy enough to put a tracksuit over a dobok. 

I've known kids beaten up walking home in a dobok. For adults, you're the role model. 

Gnarlie


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## ballen0351 (Dec 17, 2013)

donald1 said:


> Also you get the attention of annoying people,  I can't count the times I heard someone say "hey your in karate show me one of those techniques" or worse some try start fights


How many people tried to start a fight with you?


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## donald1 (Dec 17, 2013)

About 6 (six completely different times/two I'm fairly certain by the way they acted they were under the influence of alcohol) they were looking avoided that's one thing I'm greatful for but you never know how some people are going to react these days 

I've been in martial arts three years soon to be four (planning on getting next rank soon)  with that there hasn't been much problems with that type of situation


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## ballen0351 (Dec 17, 2013)

donald1 said:


> About 6 (six completely different times/two I'm fairly certain by the way they acted they were under the influence of alcohol) they were looking avoided that's one thing I'm greatful for but you never know how some people are going to react these days
> 
> I've been in martial arts three years soon to be four (planning on getting next rank soon)  with that there hasn't been much problems with that type of situation



You going to the Bar in your uniform?  You need to move man I have never ever had a problem and have never known anyone else to either so I don't know where you live but you need to leave that place if 6 people in three years have tried to fight you because of your clothes


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## donald1 (Dec 17, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> You going to the Bar in your uniform?  You need to move man I have never ever had a problem and have never known anyone else to either so I don't know where you live but you need to leave that place if 6 people in three years have tried to fight you because of your clothes


There's a bar close but I don't go there (technically I can't go I'm 19 and see no interest in going)  i don't know whether they were trying to do but yes and thank you for the advice


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## jks9199 (Dec 17, 2013)

Carol said:


> A couple of times I made a quick stop in to one place or another because I had to get a bite or a drink before class.  Never had any threats to my personal safety.  I did experience some minor annoyances, such as my uniform getting stained from spilled coffee or grease from the gas pump.



This is the biggest reason I can think of not to where your uniform outside of the training area.  Of course, you're also a reflection and representative of the club, especially when you're in uniform, just like anything I do in my work uniform reflects on my agency -- but with most students that's not really a problem.  When I first started training, one of my friends developed a habit of wearing his uniform jacket as an outer layer in place of a sweatshirt or the like.  We were advised that doing so wasn't proper, especially once he'd earned the student patch.

As to conduct outside the club having to be dealt with...  It's not often a problem in my experience.  We've had one or two that needed a few words about behavior for one reason or another -- but that's often been more simply looking out and caring for a friend making bad choices more than someone reflecting poorly on the club.  I'm aware of a few cases where people were given ultimatums about their behavior, but not a lot.


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## jks9199 (Dec 17, 2013)

Tenacious_Red said:


> This actually reminded me, and a bit off subject, but there have been issues with people who abuse uniforms in public. Not necessarily being a target, but making an appearance and perhaps milking it for what it's worth. Such as corrections officers and dispatchers who wear the same uniform as the deputies of their county. And in these scenarios, they were getting LEO discounts at stores and on food. Although, what really brought the issue to light was that a dispatcher was present during an emergency call in a uniform, did not respond (of course) to the public's liking, because the public thought she was a deputy. Caused some confusion.
> 
> Side note, I have been told, "if you are going to wear your uniform in public, wear it appropriately and make sure it's tidy in appearance and be respectful."



We've got one civilian staff member where I work who has a tendency to wear a department baseball cap...  He's not sworn, he's never been sworn, and it's been addressed by the brass several times.  He stops for a while, then resumes.  Until the brass decides to actually handle it, that's how it'll roll.

I'm actually NOT a fan of civilian uniforms that look too much like the officers uniforms (dispatchers, etc) for just the reason your post illustrates: misidenfitication.  Whether it's they don't handle something they're not prepared, trained, or equipped for, or get targeted because a bad guy doesn't look for details...  there's a safety risk.  I learned this many years ago when I was uniformed security guard.  I stopped somewhere on the way to work, in uniform, and was mistaken for a police officer by a child.  Harmless, but it made me realize that there was a concern with the uniform, and led to me either wearing something to cover up the uniform or putting my shirt on at work.


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## oftheherd1 (Dec 18, 2013)

Gnarlie said:


> I didn't think that would be so controversial. I can understand if there is no changing facility, but it's easy enough to put a tracksuit over a dobok.
> 
> I've known kids beaten up walking home in a dobok. For adults, you're the role model.
> 
> Gnarlie



I have not known anyone who was beaten up, or even had to defend themselves because of wearing a MA uniform.  But even without a uniform, if it is known I am a BB in an MA, there have sometimes been people who felt a need to challenge that.  No one has taken it to a physical level (nor would I allow it), but there are nonetheless sometimes challenges to the effectiveness of MA, particularly mine.  

All that aside, I was always taught the the uniform was for use in the dojang, and represented the school.  It was always considered poor form to wear the uniform outside of class.  So when I see students wearing their uniform outside of class, I tend to think poorly of the school.  As with you, I would understand no changing facilities if there were no rest rooms, but in general, I don't personally agree with wear of the uniform outside the school.

Maybe I'm just old fashioned, but it was part of the way I was taught.


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