# revisions to style, am I still teaching it?



## isshinryu guy (Jan 22, 2010)

So, I am a 2nd degree in Isshinryu Okinawan Karate. I am currently not associated with any groups of Federations, etc. I am looking to start teaching on a small level.

let's also say, that there are some changes I want to make to the way I am going to teach the style. I think Isshinryu packs way too much information and memorization in between white belt, and black. I think that it can be overwhelming, and I think that most students today do not have the time to dedicate to the amount of Katas, and techniques that normally are taught in Isshinryu under black belt.

I want to slow down the learning a bit. As you may not know, Isshinryu starts with Seisan, while not an overly complicated kata, it is lengthy. Many schools have added introductory katas such as Taikyoku, or other various beginner Katas. I would like to add the 2 Fukyugata katas from Matsubayashi. One being from Shorin Ryu, and one being from Goju (the core systems that Isshinryu is taken from).

Also, traditionally you learn all 8 katas in the system before black. That includes Kusanku, and Sunsu (the longest). I am thinking of moving these to 2nd, and 3rd dan respectively.

There are 3 Bo katas in this sytem, I am wanting to add an intro kata (Tenryu No Kon). There are also 2 Sai katas. I am thinking of removing them all together as they are expensive weapons for families to buy, and they are very dangerous with the sharp points. I do not think kids should learn them.

Here is my question: If I make all these changes, am I still teaching Isshinryu? Is this now a new system, or a modified Isshinryu system. 

What do you think. I think people are making changes to systems all the time, when does it stop being the parent system?


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## Stac3y (Jan 22, 2010)

You can get a pair of decent sais for $16 bucks online. Just FYI.


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## wushuguy (Jan 22, 2010)

Maybe you can call it a modified version of the style, as it still incorporates the main aspects of the style with a few modifications. In my opinion, for it to be a new style, it should have some significant changes. like kajukenbo for example.

Some styles add a few things here and there but are still called by their foundation style. TKD for example. I know lots of TKD schools where they incorporate outside styles into their curriculum. but the main thing is still TKD. Like some incorporate escrima sticks into their curriculum or sai or even 3 section staff. But that's just bolted on, no matter how logical it looks to be.

If creating a new style is your goal, then it will take a lot of work to iron things out. understanding the philosophy and principle of the styles, knowing how it flows together, which aspects compliment, etc. Just knowing some techniques of other styles, one can't successfully bring about a new style.


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## Andrew Green (Jan 22, 2010)

isshinryu guy said:


> There are 3 Bo katas in this sytem, I am wanting to add an intro kata (Tenryu No Kon). There are also 2 Sai katas. I am thinking of removing them all together as they are expensive weapons for families to buy, and they are very dangerous with the sharp points. I do not think kids should learn them.



Sai are not expensive.  All hobbies / sports have equipment that is needed.  A pair of sai cost less then a pair of skates, a pair of wrestling shoes and countless other pieces of gear people won't even flinch at buying.  Even a decent gi costs more then a pair of sai.


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## Cayuga Karate (Jan 22, 2010)

Isshin Ryu Guy,

You would be doing what those before you have done. 

Tatsuo learned from Kyan, Motobu and Miyagi. Motobu had several teachers. Kyan had a bunch. Kata wound up in Miyagi's goju ryu that Higashionna did not bring back from China. 

All these teachers had multiple sources to the "styles" they created. That has been the nature of karate. You learn what you can, and pass on what you find useful. 

If you decided to teach fewer kata, prior to black belt, (not swapping some out and some in), you would be teaching kata more like it was taught in the 1800s where often a student would practice a given kata for up to several years before moving on to another. (And students probably trained more hours then, than is common today. Moreover, their training likely had more kata practice compared to today's training.)

If you are only slowing down the rate at which Isshin Ryu kata are learned, and not abandoning any, then I would argue your system would be Isshin Ryu, even if you were to add other kata, both empty hand and weapon. 

Just my two cents worth.

-Mike Eschenbrenner
Cayuga Karate
Ithaca, NY 14850


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## repz (Jan 22, 2010)

Yeah, I second the above poster. Only tradition that has been consistant in martial arts is that of change (seems ironic).

You might get traditional Isshin Ryu karatekas arguing that your school isnt traditional Isshin Ryu, or take it as far as to say its not Isshin Ryu anymore. But there is no law to copy a style exactly, a style is an expression of the individual.

I intend to mix styles and I also wonder what the perception of others would be to my style.


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## isshinryu guy (Jan 22, 2010)

repz said:


> Yeah, I second the above poster. Only tradition that has been consistant in martial arts is that of change (seems ironic).
> 
> You might get traditional Isshin Ryu karatekas arguing that your school isnt traditional Isshin Ryu, or take it as far as to say its not Isshin Ryu anymore. But there is no law to copy a style exactly, a style is an expression of the individual.
> 
> I intend to mix styles and I also wonder what the perception of others would be to my style.


 
I think there are very few traditionally pure schools left, at least around here. There is a school across the street from my work that teaches Kung-fu. They mix Long Fist, Mantis, with Tai-Chi, and Escrima? Also, half the Taekwondo schools around here have added Hapkido self defense, and Okinawan Kobudo for weapons. And dear lord, how many people have added Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu to their programs because of the MMA. I think everone is looking for a rounded system.


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## Brandon Fisher (Jan 22, 2010)

My kobudo instructor is also a  6th Dan in Isshin Ryu and teaches Isshin ryu very traditionally.  She has added a version of Taikiyoku before Seisan to help the learning process along with some other slight differences.  Maybe you should talk to her to see if she can help make some suggestions.  Contact me if you are interested.


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## repz (Jan 22, 2010)

isshinryu guy said:


> I think there are very few traditionally pure schools left, at least around here. There is a school across the street from my work that teaches Kung-fu. They mix Long Fist, Mantis, with Tai-Chi, and Escrima? Also, half the Taekwondo schools around here have added Hapkido self defense, and Okinawan Kobudo for weapons. And dear lord, how many people have added Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu to their programs because of the MMA. I think everone is looking for a rounded system.


 
True, but I meant throughout history. Like I take two styles, one considered tma, but it came from shurei-te and naha-te, which is shotokan.

You take isshin ryu, which is a mix of several styles as well.

Back then there wasnt even a style, some guy could have showed some dude some kata and added it to his system.

It seems like traditional is anything that remains faithful to a style that is within 60 years of birth and that ONLY came from asia.

But I personally dont think anything is traditional, everything came from something, and people have always changed it. I dont really see a reason to stay with one style, if they can do, so can we.

Thats just my oppinion.


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## Brandon Fisher (Jan 22, 2010)

Just fyi Shotokan is a mix of Shuri Te and Tomari Te not Naha Te.  Shotokan does not use any kata from the Naha lineage.


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## Omar B (Jan 22, 2010)

Revise as much as you want man, whatever works for you, but the traditionalists will not call it Isshin Ryu.  But really, is that such a bad thing?  Many times organizations are less about quality control and more about simply control.  They become guardians of the flame and you have to not only pay tribute to them but your students have to measure up to what they consider correct.  Not that that's a bad thing really.

Personally I do a Japanese style but as I've not been formally apart of an organization since my teens and work out privatly with my Hanshi and his son I have more leeway.  Sure what I do is Seido, but I also do a lot of Korean style kicking and since we are working privatly my Hanshi works in a lot of Judo since he's got two good subjects to toss around.  So he holds high rank in Seido but my last organization certificate was my junior black belt.  At this point I'm a second degree bb in a weirdo mutt system.

Not something I would ever teach openly in a school though.  We do what we do, but I'm not here to change anything or throw another style name into the already crowded pool.  I do relive in keeping styles pure, but I also believe in adapting for yourself ... not in changing and imposing my own value judgments as to what I think is good.


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## wushuguy (Jan 23, 2010)

I agree with omar. actually most students don't know or care about larger organizations. like in TKD, many don't know if they're doing WTF or ITF. and they don't care, as long as it was good for them.


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## bigmoe (Jan 23, 2010)

Hears the problem today Its not the problem that isshinryu has to much imformation people dont want to take time to practice.As Mr Mitchum has said to me when you add and subtract from the style it not isshinryu call it something else. Also on the other hand taikyoku was taught as an in house dojo kata by Mr Harrill not as a isshinryu kata along with his two other kata.Are those kata good to learn yes but there not isshinryu kata i know that im traditionalists and have been in isshinryu for 30 yrs but that is what i think what ever you do i wish you luck


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## jks9199 (Jan 23, 2010)

bigmoe said:


> Hears the problem today Its not the problem that isshinryu has to much imformation people dont want to take time to practice.As Mr Mitchum has said to me when you add and subtract from the style it not isshinryu call it something else. Also on the other hand taikyoku was taught as an in house dojo kata by Mr Harrill not as a isshinryu kata along with his two other kata.Are those kata good to learn yes but there not isshinryu kata i know that im traditionalists and have been in isshinryu for 30 yrs but that is what i think what ever you do i wish you luck


It sounds like you haven't really added or subtracted anything, merely altered the sequence and timing, right?  You're keeping the same principles and underlying strategies, and if someone saw one of your students, they'd say "That's Isshin-ryu."

The catch is going to be that, because you've delayed some of the material, one of your students could go somewhere and not know material they are expected to know at their level.  You'll at least want to prepare your students for that sort of thing.


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## Brandon Fisher (Jan 23, 2010)

Bigmoe,
Thank you!!


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## sjansen (Jan 23, 2010)

If your teaching your student the basics of Isshinryu then you are teaching the isshinryu.

Shimabuku took several styles and combined them to form what he thought was the perfect style. Many add to it and have taken from it.

To teach the basics of Isshinryu as you understand it is probally closer to Shimakuku's vision than what is taught today. His main practitioners learned Issinryu in lesq than a year and had little discernment of what was meant in the style than they realize.

This has happened with many styles. What the founder wanted and what was necessary to practice the style have been imbellished to keep students.

Do what you know is necessary for your students and you will do what is right.


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## setboy (Jan 23, 2010)

isshinryu guy said:


> I want to slow down the learning a bit. As you may not know, Isshinryu starts with Seisan, while not an overly complicated kata, it is lengthy. Many schools have added introductory katas such as Taikyoku, or other various beginner Katas. I would like to add the 2 Fukyugata katas from Matsubayashi. One being from Shorin Ryu, and one being from Goju (the core systems that Isshinryu is taken from).



I see no real problem with this and i came up in a school that did the same thing. All i can say is make real sure that your students know it is not an isshinryu kata.



isshinryu guy said:


> Also, traditionally you learn all 8 katas in the system before black. That includes Kusanku, and Sunsu (the longest). I am thinking of moving these to 2nd, and 3rd dan respectively.



In my mind i think 2nd and 3rd are pushing them too far up  the ranks. I think 1st and 2nd would be better myself. I know i have seen LOTS of different ways people have ordered katas. Is there a right and wrong way? I don't know.
I thinl even master Angi Uezu teaches/ed sunsu at shodan. That's different from most people i have seen.
The other thing i will say is if you are going to be taking your students places to meet other isshinryu people they may feel left behind when they see a brown belt is doing kusanku and they are a shodan that hasn't learned it yet.



isshinryu guy said:


> There are 3 Bo katas in this sytem, I am wanting to add an intro kata (Tenryu No Kon). There are also 2 Sai katas. I am thinking of removing them all together as they are expensive weapons for families to buy, and they are very dangerous with the sharp points. I do not think kids should learn them.



I would say don't remove the katas. moving them around is one thing, but removing them all together sounds like a bad idea.  I will also have to disagree with weapons being too expensive. kids are not the best people to be using sai, but teens have no problem.



isshinryu guy said:


> Here is my question: If I make all these changes, am I still teaching Isshinryu? Is this now a new system, or a modified Isshinryu system.
> 
> What do you think. I think people are making changes to systems all the time, when does it stop being the parent system?



Hard call since every one has a different idea of what "real isshinryu" is.
What ever you do i say to teach it as best as you can.


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## bigmoe (Jan 24, 2010)

All that i am saying that when he used kata from the other styles he changed the name to isshinryu .It would be like when i was in the army and i took two other styles and when i got out opened a school and used there kata and called my school bigmoe isshinryu would i really be teaching isshinryu or should i call it another name


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## searcher (Jan 24, 2010)

I am having one problem with a particular statement you made. You states that you are a Ni-dan in I-ryu, but you were thinking of moving some Bo kata to Ni-dan or San-dan. How you planning on doing that if you are only a Ni-dan yourself? Are you planning on promoting yourself? Or maybe you are thinking about making your own style to move up the ladder faster? My inquiring mind wants to know.


Though I-ryu is not my primary style, I do teach it in addition to my primary as a part of my school. I have no problems telling my students that some pieces are from I-ryu and some are from C-ryu. I do try to keep the systems seperated as much as possible, but I will never stop overlap if it makes my students better karate-ka. I even take some of the things from TKD(I trained in this style for quite a while), EPAK(I am currently training in this style) and even Hawaiian Kenpo(a style I used to train in) and put them in for my students. By adding these things, I have found that my students are getting better by the day and they are researching more material on their own. 

Now, do I feel like what I am teaching is a new style? I am not really sure. I feel it is karate and that is what I say I am teaching. I don't care if someone comes by and tells me that what I am teaching is not correct or proper. My students are getting better and that is what I am wanting to have happen.


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## David43515 (Jan 25, 2010)

Am I the only one who thinks it`s odd that a guy who is only a second dan is trying to figure out what he`s going to teach his students as requirememnts for thier third dan?


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## dbell (Jan 25, 2010)

isshinryu guy said:


> So, I am a 2nd degree in Isshinryu Okinawan Karate. I am currently not associated with any groups of Federations, etc. I am looking to start teaching on a small level.



As a 2nd Dan, what does your license authorize you to teach?  I know in most "traditional" Japanese and Okinawan systems, in order to open your own school, in your name, instead of your teachers name, you need to be 3rd Dan.  3rd Dan being the equivalent of the older Menkyo Kaiden, meaning you had full transmission and you had the ability to modify and teach the art your way instead of the way it was taught to you.  (Some systems have changed that concept to 4th or 5th Dan with the expansion of the Dan ranks to 10 from 5.)

If your credentials give you the authority in your system to open your own school, in your name instead of your instructors, then the school should be taught as you see fit.  If it deviates from the requirements of your original system, such as X "specific" Katas to reach 1st Dan, 2nd Dan, etc., it is no longer the same system, as that person can not go to another school of the "same system name" and have a comparable rank.  You would need to rename your system, and maybe state that it is based on X system with changes as you felt were merited in your understanding of the arts you have studied and your understanding of human development and needs.


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## Omar B (Jan 25, 2010)

As I mentioned before, cobbling together your own style is fine for you since you know what works for you and such.  I would never teach such a system though, I think the styles should speak for themselves and it's the students who should make whatever changes they wish when they have learned up to like second dan level.  

But then I would never presume to make up my own style.


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## isshinryu guy (Jan 27, 2010)

David43515 said:


> Am I the only one who thinks it`s odd that a guy who is only a second dan is trying to figure out what he`s going to teach his students as requirememnts for thier third dan?


 
First off, I would only be teaching people from the ground up at white belt. Also, during that time, I have a Isshinryu school that is in my state that I have an arrangement with to visit, and test for any other belt levels. I am currently stydying on my own for the next level. And I have already studied all elements of the system except a Tonfa Kata that is part of the system (Hama-Higa No Tonfa), and by 2nd degree at most Isshinryu schools you have already covered almost all of the system. All open hand katas are learned before black belt, including about half of the weapons forms.
By the time I get someone up to the black belt level, which may not even happen as I have not even started teaching, I will have had the opportunity to test for 3rd dan. My question is more of a phylisophical question rather than a plan I have set in stone.

I am not sure why you are talking about me in the third person with others, rather than simply asking me a direct question. I would be more than happy to answer any of your questions...Thanks


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## bigmoe (Jan 29, 2010)

well i have question then how long have you been studing.Are you on good terms with with your sensei so you dont have to go to someone else to get promoted.Have you talked to someone of high rank about what you want to do. Also in most isshinryu schools you have to be at least a 3 dan to promote on your own with blessing of your sensei and  does the other sensei do kata like you


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## matrixman (Jan 31, 2010)

Hi Guys, nothing wrong with rearranging a system, as long as and especially if your students are getting more benefit. That is the point of it all, after all, your students. 
Traditional only means the way others do it. I sort of like that you are thinking outside the box, sounds like you are analyzing, and yet falling in love. One thing is certain, as you create, you make it your own, and that is going to make it better because you are going to be more passionate. Be interesting to see what happens in ten years.
Now, one thing, I see a couple of fellows making comment about certification and ranking and such. You should probably ignore, for they are telling you to stop, or putting other considerations in your way. Nothing wrong with traditional, but not if it becomes a bind, then it must be put aside. Who gave the first black belt, after all?
Here's a quote...
Hell, there are no rules here - we're trying to accomplish something. --Thomas A. Edison 
Have a Great Work Out, Al


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 31, 2010)

isshinryu guy said:


> So, I am a 2nd degree in Isshinryu Okinawan Karate. I am currently not associated with any groups of Federations, etc. I am looking to start teaching on a small level.
> 
> let's also say, that there are some changes I want to make to the way I am going to teach the style. I think Isshinryu packs way too much information and memorization in between white belt, and black. I think that it can be overwhelming, and I think that most students today do not have the time to dedicate to the amount of Katas, and techniques that normally are taught in Isshinryu under black belt.
> 
> ...



I am an Isshin-Ryu karateka, and we do not learn the katas in the order you mentioned.  My first kata was Sanchin.  Second was Seisan, then Seiuchin.  Now I am working on Naihanchi, to be followed by Wansu.

I am currently a go-kyu, wearing a green belt.  When I have six months as a go-kyu and both Naihanchi and Wansu, I may be promoted to blue belt.  I will need six more months and Chinto to be promoted to Brown belt.  I will also have to become proficient in learning the 'backside' of the katas, so that I can be a good uke for those learning the katas.

My dojo is affiliated with the UIKA, and my sensei's teachers are Master Harrill (RIP) and Master Mitchum.  My sensei learned from the men who learned from Master Shimabuku personally, and he is in constant contact with Master Mitchum, so I don't think what he teaches is inauthentic in any way, although the order in which he teaches kata differs from other Isshin-Ryu dojos in the area, as does his promotion criteria.

Given that I started training at age 47, I cannot advance realistically past say San-Dan in my ifetime, given the years left to me and the promotion criteria for time in active MA training and time in each grade.  I expect to be a brown belt until I am nearly 60.  That's life, I can deal with it, I'm not interested in collecting belts, but in proficiency.

So I don't think what you're doing would necessarily be changing the system.  We also do Taikyoku, but I'm not very good at it yet, and yes, I realize it's not part of Isshin-Ryu.  We also learn techniques in our self-defense portion of the training that are not Isshin-Ryu, just techniques that our senseis like and want us to learn.

For what it may be worth, and no disrespect intended of course, but at our dojo, you would not be teaching at all.  Only San-Dan and above are called 'sensei' and teach.  And only Yon-Dan and above - with special permission if not at least Go Dan, would be given leave to open their own dojo.  Start to finish in our system, Go-Dan would take a person about 30 years from white belt, on average (a guess, not a hard and fast rule).  Our sensei is 57, has 40 years in, and he's Hachi-Dan.  His two main students are both Go-Dan, and have 35+ years in of active training.


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## Haze (Feb 7, 2010)

Bill Mattocks said:


> My dojo is affiliated with the UIKA, and my sensei's teachers are Master Harrill (RIP) and Master Mitchum.  My sensei learned from the men who learned from Master Shimabuku personally,
> 
> For what it may be worth, and no disrespect intended of course, but at our dojo, you would not be teaching at all.  Only San-Dan and above are called 'sensei' and teach.  And only Yon-Dan and above - with special permission if not at least Go Dan, would be given leave to open their own dojo.  Start to finish in our system, Go-Dan would take a person about 30 years from white belt, on average (a guess, not a hard and fast rule).  Our sensei is 57, has 40 years in, and he's Hachi-Dan.  His two main students are both Go-Dan, and have 35+ years in of active training.



I always wondered why it takes so long. This is from Sensei Mitchum's bio.

"Harold Mitchum was born in South Carolina on December 17, 1933.   He joined the Marines on July 23, 1953.  He was first stationed on Okinawa in March, 1958."

So we can see that he never started training in Isshinryu untill at least 1958.

"Mitchum was appointed the first President of the American Okinawan Karate Association and was the first American ever promoted to 8th dan by the Master.  His certificate is numbered #1 and dated 5 November 1964."

1958-1964  to reach 8th Dan. Looks like 6 years to me and that promotion was from the founder of the system. Maybe time in training equals money now days.

(quotes from http://www.ashsokinawankarate.com/sensei_mitchum.html)


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## Victor Smith (Feb 12, 2010)

Ive been working at Isshinryu for over 36 years now. You have asked many questions which do not have simple answers.

One does not have to be part of an association to practice and/or teach Isshinryu, but I have come to the point that one of my students (no matter whether they have had previous training or not) is not qualified to enter the instructor mentorship training I offer until they have completed 15 continuous years of training at the minimum, and then they have to follow students from white to black belt before they are qualified to be beginning instructors.  Its not a question of being able to teach, but one of having enough in depth knowledge of what our approach to training consists of.

I can imagine your circumstances and why you want to start teaching, to keep practicing Isshinryu. I was there over 30 or so years ago, but the times were different.

I teach the entire Isshinryu curriculum to both youth and adults (entirely separate programs by design) but as Ive trained with many others my program also has many additional kata studies mandatory in the program, some beginning studies by design to build my students ability for Isshinryu, and some to honor those who shared with me and give my students tactile appreciation of others systems of study as well as other studies to work against. Such an approach enhances Isshinryu without changing anything.

I offer one set of advice Ive followed, do not include anything in your instruction until youve practiced it 5 years yourself first. Ive followed that religiously the entire time Ive practiced. Picking up something and believing it a good idea is not the same as getting adequate at it yourself (and I consider 5 years into any kata study just adequacy).

As youre just considering getting started I wouldnt worry about whether advanced studies should be changed in the curriculum, you have years to make such a decision.

i.e. in my youth program it takes 7 to 9 years to move from white to black belt (adults on the same material about 4 years) and that covers 15 kata studies, 8 of which are the Isshinryu empty hand kata.  I only teach Kobudo after black belt and I would not drop anything, all of the weapons have a very important place in advanced kata application studies, that take a decade or two of hard work to make a difference, but in time they really are important.

In the most perfect world the Ni-Dan would be training hard and learning harder, not being distracted from their studies by teaching. Its not a perfect world, but before making changes take it slow. Every change Ive made I spent quite a bit of time working it out and that never hurt in the long run. If you have a good idea it still will be good 5 years from now.

That would suggest if you must start teaching, teach as youve been taught, and slowly work towards what may be a good change. Youre students wont be hurt by not changing anything either. Pure Isshinryu itself is a fine way to train.

The book of rules states there are no rules after all. Im only offering personal suggestions, nothing more.

In the large picture the most important organization is the dojo, all others come and go. The most important rank is being able to do it (and or teach it) not the number you have. If you place your work on your art first, the rest becomes irrelevant as in the dojo everyone knows what you have and who you are.

Just a history note, in the time of Isshinryus origins the idea of an Organization of Karate was just beginning in Okinawa, prior to that there were just instructors. Likewise the idea of rank was borrowed from Japan, never having been used on Okinawa prior to the mid50s. Shimabuku in the early Isshinryu years would promote American military students  to sho-dan and give them a 6th degree certificate which in an appropriate number of years he felt they would grow towards.  The earliest 4 students got 8th degree certificates ( a few years later this was a discontinued practice ). He likely didnt believe they would really keep doing karate for a lifetime with their short training (and he was wrong about that). As all rank was a new idea anyway degrees of karate rank may have held little meaning for him.

As it turns out those he awarded those ranks to did help establish and create an off-shore Isshinryu in the states and around the world. His choice did then have merit, but organizationally it also caused problems showing the entire world rank really has the meaning you place in it.

I wouldnt worry about the history,  that was then, today is today. Honor all seniors, they created all we have, but as to the why thats really not our business.

Nice to meet you if you chose to move to Derry and join my program I have never charged for instruction and if you do come here Id be glad in 15 years to consider you for instructor training, of course wed have to see about that then.

Training and never stopping is the highest goal. Being an instructor, IMVHO, is a very different burden only some really have the interest in pursuing.

BTW, IMVHO if you join an organization your first goal must be to test the Seniors to see if they are qualified (more so than the other way around).

Pleasantly


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## setboy (Feb 12, 2010)

David43515 said:


> Am I the only one who thinks it`s odd that a guy who is only a second dan is trying to figure out what he`s going to teach his students as requirememnts for thier third dan?



I missed it the first time around, but yes i do find that odd.


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