# Wrist locks???



## Kyosanim (May 16, 2010)

After a lot of thinking and reflecting I have been reviewing joint locks I learned, and have found an issue. Maybe the wonderful people on here can help me out?

Just what are wrist locks good for??? I have been trying these on friends with full resistance and I know I'm doing it right, but I find that when the wrist is flexed by way of making a fist the lock becomes impossible.

I even had a friend who does the lock well and is much stronger than I am try it on me, and nothing. You just can't force the lock. In grappling matches we tried it, and still simply making a fist counters the lock. Now when being grabbed by the wrist they work at full resistance, but even in matches I rarely see wrist grabs.

I have also found many people are immune to wrist locks, and many others are just too flexible for the lock to work properly.

Why is such an unreliable technique so wide spread and taught so often.
I realize these are great in jujitsu but if I'm not fighting a jujitsuka then just how do I use these???? I never really questioned what I was taught, but I cannot seem to find a way for these to be useful in practical application other than woman defending against an abusive spouse. I have found elbow locks to be far more reliable and practical in sparring ( meaning we actually managed to get the locks in a match from various positions NOT JUST FROM ONE POSITION ) Thoughts?


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## Makalakumu (May 16, 2010)

I've used wrists locks while grappling quite a bit.  Sure, you can defeat them, but then you just need to move on to something else.  Wrists locks work, but they aren't a magic bullet.  I wouldn't base an entire system around them.


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## Chris Parker (May 16, 2010)

Within our schools we have a little saying, "a blow before the throw", meaning that you need to distract before utilising a grappling technique. So if they are able to resist it (by being fully aware of what you are doing), you're not applying it in the right way. I'm not talking about the position of your thumbs, or the Ki finger, or any such thing, but rather that you are applying them when there is the least chance of success.

If you want these to work, hit the other guy first! Hard! Then when he doesn't know what's going on, grab the wrist and go.


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## seasoned (May 16, 2010)

Wrist locks are in the category of compliance techniques. Subtle hits while maneuvering into position will distract them. Grabbing their arm in a fight is common while blocking, and begins the technique of locks. Palm strikes to their face, or finger flicks to the groin are good.


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## Haakon (May 16, 2010)

Wrist locks are one tool in the tool box. If your opponent knows what technique you're going to do and isn't going to go along with it most of them will fail, that's not just limited to wrist locks. How well does a leg sweep work when the person knows you're going to do it?

If you attempt a wrist lock and it doesn't work you move on to something else, but when you get the lock in, you're in control. Police use them every day to control suspects, most people won't know exactly what you're doing or how to counter it.


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## repz (May 16, 2010)

Wrist locks are good when someone is holding something that leaves their fingers not interconnected (which means they dont have much strength). Like if they grab your shirt, or has some weapon in their hand. 

I know in bjj they used to be used in competetiton (i heard now they are starting to be banned, or competitors are complaining about it). They have tapped some people out by surprise, but its not common, and its hard to apply with someone sensitive to body movements that know a manipulation of his joints is coming.


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## MJS (May 16, 2010)

Kyosanim said:


> After a lot of thinking and reflecting I have been reviewing joint locks I learned, and have found an issue. Maybe the wonderful people on here can help me out?
> 
> Just what are wrist locks good for??? I have been trying these on friends with full resistance and I know I'm doing it right, but I find that when the wrist is flexed by way of making a fist the lock becomes impossible.
> 
> ...


 
Locks do work.  Chris pretty much echoed my thoughts.  I've worked with some people, and yes, they started resisting, so I did something to distract them.   And yes, the lock worked.  Of course, keep in mind, any time someone really resists something, the chances of injury to that person, go up.  

Chances are the people you're doing these locks on, know what you're going to try, thus they want to give you a hard time.  

As for people not being affected by them....yes, thats always a possibility.  I've worked with some people, who I swear their hands were made out of rubber.  Like anything, if its not working, I'm not going to keep playing around, trying to make it work....I'm going to move on to something else.


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## tellner (May 16, 2010)

The emphasis on wrist locks makes more sense in historical context. If you are unarmed and your opponent has a sword control of the weapon hand is more important that, well, pretty much everything. And later on Aikido emphasized pain-compliance and control which puts a premium on wrist locks.

Pain compliance depends on the other guy being reasonable enough to stop when he feels uncomfortable. I've always figured if he were reasonable he wouldn't have attacked me. Stuff that makes him incapable of hurting me is a better bet. In other words, break, don't lock. Them move on to whatever you have to do next.


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## Kyosanim (May 16, 2010)

tellner said:


> The emphasis on wrist locks makes more sense in historical context. If you are unarmed and your opponent has a sword control of the weapon hand is more important that, well, pretty much everything. And later on Aikido emphasized pain-compliance and control which puts a premium on wrist locks.
> 
> Pain compliance depends on the other guy being reasonable enough to stop when he feels uncomfortable. I've always figured if he were reasonable he wouldn't have attacked me. Stuff that makes him incapable of hurting me is a better bet. In other words, break, don't lock. Them move on to whatever you have to do next.



Yeah...... I thought as much. It seems to me that they are very based on the assumption that everyone else fights the way you do. Not a smart bet. I just wish I could find a system for these that makes them more reliable because counting on a wrist grab is not working. It just does not happen that way in sparring or other wise. A hapkido black belt from my old school told me that if it does not work make it work. This was spoken in reference to joint locks and pressure points. Thats fine and dandy when your a man bear, but it seems to me that MJS's thinking is more on the right track. I have two pressure points on my head that my dad always used to push when he had me in a head lock.
Thanks to him these don't work so well on me anymore, in fact the barely work at all. I have found many people to be very easily brought down by these. Obvious conclusion not everyone is hurt by the same things ergo making it work is likely to cost me. I see what you guys mean about distraction, but even so if someone is attacking me I'm not going to bother with this. If I lock them at all I have found the elbow and shoulder far more reliable.


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## David43515 (May 17, 2010)

*All *locks, from finger and wrist locks to full Nelsons and Japanese strangles, can be countered if you apply them at the wrong time. You should never have to force any lock. If you do, it`s probably not the best choice for the situation anyway. Always soften them up with pain, or a sudden loss of balance.

I`ve used wrist locks successfully in fights against trained wrestlers, and I`ve had them fail against people who muscled through them. So I moved on to something else that worked. (A shoulder lock, an elbow to the head, a bite, a push onto thier butt, etc)

Wrist locks work wonderfully when you use them *at the appropriate time, *just like every other lock, strike, throw, trip, or kick. Wrists are a high percentage move when done correctly  because when someone tries to lay hands on you, thier wrists are the closest thing to you.


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## Nishibi Ryu (May 17, 2010)

I find that you must find the opportunity to use all techniques not just locks. If someone knows you are going to do a right hook or jab or throw or front kick they will resist or avoid all of them and none could be considered effective.

This fixation people have with what works and what does not is rediculous, all techniques are perfect it is us who is not.
When a fist is made a wrist lock works just as well as an open hand if not faster, I tried it on a student last week and he said it came on quicker.
 I have also had some kick boxers come in and have had no trouble applying them and they always resist.  The more resistance given requires more pressure and speed from you and that damages the wrist that is why you are taught to apply them slowly.
So stop thinking and start doing and wait for an opening to all you have learnt and if that does not work try moving your hips more when you apply it and use less arm strength!


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## Nishibi Ryu (May 17, 2010)

Another point you should remember when referring to pain compliance not working is that after pain there is breaking or dislocation. So if you take your lock further when it does not work you WILL break something, will your attacker keep coming with a broken wrist, arm etc etc????
If he does the best option is RUN cos he is a nut job!!!


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## elder999 (May 17, 2010)

Kyosanim said:


> Just what are wrist locks good for??? I have been trying these on friends with full resistance and I know I'm doing it right, but I find that when the wrist is flexed by way of making a fist the lock becomes impossible.) Thoughts?


 
A guy reaches into his pocket (or jacket-even more alarming...), probably for a knife or other weapon. Along with the knifehand to his collarbone, a wristlock works well here, in that he _wants to take the hand out of his pocket, and his own motion lends itself to making the wrist lock work._


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## FearlessFreep (May 17, 2010)

Every technique  has a counter.  The trick is to get the counter in before the technique sets in.  Once the technique is set in, it's usually too late to counter directly and you  need to do something else to break the technique. However, no counter is perfect either.  It's a give and take (or as we say in class "flow and go")  If you counter my first technique, my reaction should not be to keep trying to force something that won't work but to flow to something else, preferably something that has opened because of your counter.  As mentioned, punches, spits, low kicks, etc..are excellent ways of interrupting someone's attempt to counter what you are doing

But any technique can be countered is you know ahead of time to counter the technique


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## FearlessFreep (May 17, 2010)

Nishibi Ryu said:


> Another point you should remember when referring to pain compliance not working is that after pain there is breaking or dislocation. So if you take your lock further when it does not work you WILL break something, will your attacker keep coming with a broken wrist, arm etc etc????
> If he does the best option is RUN cos he is a nut job!!!



We look at all manipulation techniques as flowing between Pain Compliance and Joint Compliance. Joint Compliance is a mechanical positioning of the body  in such a way that the body moves (or doesn't) in a particular way.  Pain or not, biomechanics are biomechanics and the body just works certain ways.  Some techniques (or usually some parts of the dynamic application of a technique) will apply one or the other, or both.  So we train to recognize at the various points what sorta of compliance we are affecting (if any, there are points sometimes where you will have neither and you must be aware of that because that's usually a good time to throw in some other distraction to get the opponents mind elsewhere)


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## FearlessFreep (May 17, 2010)

> A hapkido black belt from my old school told me that if it does not work make it work.



NO!  If it does not work, move on to something else.  Not all techniques work for all people, not all techniques work on all people.  As a general rule, most techniques will work for most people but that's only a very, very general broad rule. The problem is not usually the mechanics of the technique itself but the application at that point in time (your skill, their resistance, their strength, etc...)

Example, there are pressure points in  the arm that can assist a technique.  People who work with their arms a lot or have thick arms are harder to get to activate those pressure points.  So a technique that works against those pressure points is going to be much harder to get to work.

In class, with partners, work the technique until you understand the mechanics and application of the technique well enough that you can get it to work on your partners.  In the wild, if it ain't working, MOVE ON!


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## zDom (May 17, 2010)

I was pitching to a friend the other day and figured out that fastballs don't work! He kept knocking them out of the park!


Ok, not really &#8212; but I'm using this to make a point.

The first half has already been dealt with above: if they KNOW what's coming, it really REALLY reduces the chances of success.

But the other half is: I have no experience pitching. I mean, I've seen it done on TV all the time, had some friend show me how to throw a fastball ...

and I could PROBABLY strike out my little sister with it. Albert Pujols? Uhhhh I don't think so.

What I'm getting at is, you don't really know the ins and outs of wrist locking so YOUR chances of success are even lower. 

I reckon I might be able to make one work on your friends. But then, I wouldn't even TRY to force a particular lock: if they resist me going THIS way, I go THAT way for a lock.

Which, by the way, is what those long series of joint locks you see in hapkido clips on youtube are REALLY about: in combat, we aren't likely to switch to a second lock if the first one is working.

Nor are we likely to persist in a lock if it is being resisted &#8212; we take that resistance to add power to another lock going in the direction the resistance is moving toward.


And for what its worth, I call them "wrist locks" as verbal shorthand, but I really think of them all as

"*wrist breaks* that I can stop short of breaking if I want to be nice"


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## tellner (May 17, 2010)

Kyosanim said:


> A hapkido black belt from my old school told me that if it does not work make it work. This was spoken in reference to joint locks and pressure points.



If it doesn't work do something else. While you're sitting there trying to make reality conform to your style's fantasy the other guy will be doing the tarantella on your head.


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## shesulsa (May 17, 2010)

My limited experience is that most folks don't perform wrist locks correctly unless this is the core of their art - either the emphasis is on torque with the arm in a position where turning out is an easy option or not enough slack is out of the wrist, the angles are wrong, etcetera.

It is a tool in the box. They won't work on everyone, so don't use them on everyone.  It is truly stated that beyond the pain the recipient may not feel is joint damage rendering the joint either seriously debilitated or unusable (save the population that has herculean strength either due to extreme training or the influence of chemicals).

Locks are not a panacea - nothing is a panacea, not even a gun.  But they are also not worthless.


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## Kyosanim (May 17, 2010)

FearlessFreep said:


> We look at all manipulation techniques as flowing between Pain Compliance and Joint Compliance. Joint Compliance is a mechanical positioning of the body  in such a way that the body moves (or doesn't) in a particular way.  Pain or not, biomechanics are biomechanics and the body just works certain ways.  Some techniques (or usually some parts of the dynamic application of a technique) will apply one or the other, or both.  So we train to recognize at the various points what sorta of compliance we are affecting (if any, there are points sometimes where you will have neither and you must be aware of that because that's usually a good time to throw in some other distraction to get the opponents mind elsewhere)



I like many of the answers I have received on this thread. I'm not sure if I'm dealing with more seasoned martial artists or just ones who are more grappling oriented, but are there some specific tricks anyone can recommend or perhaps helpful books? I no longer study at my former dojang. Also just to be clear I'm not knocking wrist locks as i have found many openings for them, but I just can't seem to get the lock to stick. I have tried attacking the tendons in the wrist to apply these locks with some success, but not what I'm looking for. Perhaps I'm just being to gentle when I perform them, but I really don't want to go any harder in practice for fear of injury. Does anyone have any ideas of how to test these safely, but still have a half way realistic struggle?


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## MJS (May 17, 2010)

Kyosanim said:


> I like many of the answers I have received on this thread. I'm not sure if I'm dealing with more seasoned martial artists or just ones who are more grappling oriented, but are there some specific tricks anyone can recommend or perhaps helpful books? I no longer study at my former dojang. Also just to be clear I'm not knocking wrist locks as i have found many openings for them, but I just can't seem to get the lock to stick. I have tried attacking the tendons in the wrist to apply these locks with some success, but not what I'm looking for.


 
IMO, I'd avoid the books and tapes and dvds, and seek out someone who does: Aikido, Filipino arts, Japanese JJ, Hapkido, etc.  You really need someone to show the fine points of these locks.  



> Perhaps I'm just being to gentle when I perform them, but I really don't want to go any harder in practice for fear of injury.


 
Sometimes you just need to not be so gentle.  Now, I'm not saying to bust up the guys wrist or arm, but you need to put a little more into it.  




> Does anyone have any ideas of how to test these safely, but still have a half way realistic struggle?


 
See my comment above.  Like I said earlier, the majority of the time, unless I'm working on a specific lock, ie: doing something from a grab, I usually try to let the lock come to me, rather than me going to look for it.


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## shesulsa (May 18, 2010)

Kyosanim said:


> ... are there some specific tricks anyone can recommend or perhaps helpful books? I no longer study at my former dojang. Also just to be clear I'm not knocking wrist locks as i have found many openings for them, but I just can't seem to get the lock to stick. I have tried attacking the tendons in the wrist to apply these locks with some success, but not what I'm looking for. Perhaps I'm just being to gentle when I perform them, but I really don't want to go any harder in practice for fear of injury. Does anyone have any ideas of how to test these safely, but still have a half way realistic struggle?



You're probably missing the angle and you're probably not taking the slack out of the wrist and you're probably not using the meat of the hand or the right body part for pressure. 

You may also be dealing with larger guys with thick, stiffer wrists, but there's ways around that.

It's hard to tell you more without seeing what you're actually doing wrong and being able to physically show you more.  I'd recommend attending a joint locking seminar by a wing chun school, hapkido school or aikido school.


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## Nishibi Ryu (May 18, 2010)

FearlessFreep said:


> We look at all manipulation techniques as flowing between Pain Compliance and Joint Compliance. Joint Compliance is a mechanical positioning of the body in such a way that the body moves (or doesn't) in a particular way. Pain or not, biomechanics are biomechanics and the body just works certain ways. Some techniques (or usually some parts of the dynamic application of a technique) will apply one or the other, or both. So we train to recognize at the various points what sorta of compliance we are affecting (if any, there are points sometimes where you will have neither and you must be aware of that because that's usually a good time to throw in some other distraction to get the opponents mind elsewhere)


 

Yes I agree, I'm not exactly sure how that refers to what I was saying but I do understand what you are talking about!


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## Nishibi Ryu (May 18, 2010)

Kyosanim said:


> I like many of the answers I have received on this thread. I'm not sure if I'm dealing with more seasoned martial artists or just ones who are more grappling oriented, but are there some specific tricks anyone can recommend or perhaps helpful books? I no longer study at my former dojang. Also just to be clear I'm not knocking wrist locks as i have found many openings for them, but I just can't seem to get the lock to stick. I have tried attacking the tendons in the wrist to apply these locks with some success, but not what I'm looking for. Perhaps I'm just being to gentle when I perform them, but I really don't want to go any harder in practice for fear of injury. Does anyone have any ideas of how to test these safely, but still have a half way realistic struggle?


 
Safe practice and finding out if it works on a non compliant Uki is near impossible. Its a matter of trust and faith in the hundreds of years of practice that has made all techniques what they are. You cannot practice breaking a bone or dislocating a joint you can only take it to a certain point and it is different on everyone. So practicing with someone and taking it to the point of pain is all you can do. Try mixing up the situations and play with it a bit and just realise that it will cause damage if you push too far. 
One example of practice I have is for a side wrist lock, I take the hand and show how to apply the lock, it is a static demonstration because you must learn all of the mechanics of the lock. When I have doubters I have to apply it a bit harder and if I get full resistance I use their weight against them. I pull them toward me and as they come forward I am pushing back toward them. It causes a lot of pain and needs to be controlled but gets the point across that it will work on anyone!


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## zDom (May 18, 2010)

Nishibi Ryu said:


> Safe practice and finding out if it works on a non compliant Uki is near impossible.



Quoted for truth.

A qualified instructor and a good uke are essential for safe practice.

You, as someone new to joint locks, should avoid demonstrations and/or trials with non-compliant people. The outcome is almost certain to be bad in one way or another.

Trials have been conducted in the past. I recommend leaving demonstrations to experts.


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## Nomad (May 18, 2010)

Another point we've found is that there are some people who just don't have respond to locks and pain compliance (about 1 in 20 or so from our dojo). 

Making them tap with a lock is nearly impossible, even with good technique, because they don't feel the lock in the same way that most do.  To perform it correctly on them would involve breaking the limb or dislocating the joint instead... which of course is a viable option in a real encounter, but not so good on your training buddies.

Other than that, I strongly agree with distracting your opponent before doing a lock or throw... preferably by hitting them.


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## Gaius Julius Caesar (May 18, 2010)

I find that most people who can not get a wrist lock/manipulation to work is they try to apply it with only upper body guidence and power, a good lock?destruction takes using your legs and hips, your center for power and to move the joint. Anther problem is that when they intercept or seize the offending limb, they will guide it up infront of their chest or face. 

 A good joint lock on the wrist starts at the same plain as the interception/capture happend.

 Follow this and it can help.

 BTW You can work wrist locks durring free sparring, we have quite a bit but I would not let anyone under 2 year exp. try it as both Uke and Nage have to have good reactions and reflexes for what is going on. Nage needs to let off when he feels Uke is near breaking in movement, Uke has to know how to take airfalls over the arm to let off the pressure and beat Nage's technique to the ground.


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## sgtmac_46 (May 18, 2010)

Kyosanim said:


> After a lot of thinking and reflecting I have been reviewing joint locks I learned, and have found an issue. Maybe the wonderful people on here can help me out?
> 
> Just what are wrist locks good for??? I have been trying these on friends with full resistance and I know I'm doing it right, but I find that when the wrist is flexed by way of making a fist the lock becomes impossible.
> 
> ...


 
Wrist locks are an excellent low end use of force that can be used to control a subject you have a physical advantage on to avoid having to use greater levels of force. I've used various joint locks dozens upon dozens of times to great effect in my law enforcement career. They are excellent tools in the tool box.  They work best when applied with some kind of distraction technique, such as a knee strike or palm heel.

What you've hit on is the fact that wrist locks don't work as well against folks prepared to counter them, and/or those who are physically bigger and stronger. They can be made to work in those situations, but only with considerable practice and understanding of the intricacies of their application, positioning, etc.

Bottom line is that they have much use, but not as a sole set of techniques alone.


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## sgtmac_46 (May 18, 2010)

tellner said:


> The emphasis on wrist locks makes more sense in historical context. If you are unarmed and your opponent has a sword control of the weapon hand is more important that, well, pretty much everything. And later on Aikido emphasized pain-compliance and control which puts a premium on wrist locks.
> 
> Pain compliance depends on the other guy being reasonable enough to stop when he feels uncomfortable. I've always figured if he were reasonable he wouldn't have attacked me. Stuff that makes him incapable of hurting me is a better bet. In other words, break, don't lock. Them move on to whatever you have to do next.


 
That's absolutely right. Someone using a hand held weapon by the vary nature of it's use apply it in a matter as to commit the wrist, limb to the attack, in a way different that someone who is punching or kicking, making it uniquely vulnerable to a joint lock when swinging a knife, stick or sword.


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## Kyosanim (May 20, 2010)

sgtmac_46 said:


> That's absolutely right. Someone using a hand held weapon by the vary nature of it's use apply it in a matter as to commit the wrist, limb to the attack, in a way different that someone who is punching or kicking, making it uniquely vulnerable to a joint lock when swinging a knife, stick or sword.




And there it is. I have received some fine suggestions on this matter, but this is it. How to get around the already clinched fist when applying a wrist lock. I stay as loose a possible when sparring however the general public does not.

Most low ranks are tense my self included at one point (white - purple). It took a long time for me to loosen up. This natural response makes people hard to wrist lock in a fighting type situation. So how to get around it? There must be a way. Suggestions?


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## shesulsa (May 20, 2010)

Kyosanim said:


> And there it is. I have received some fine suggestions on this matter, but this is it. How to get around the already clinched fist when applying a wrist lock. I stay as loose a possible when sparring however the general public does not.
> 
> Most low ranks are tense my self included at one point (white - purple). It took a long time for me to loosen up. This natural response makes people hard to wrist lock in a fighting type situation. So how to get around it? There must be a way. Suggestions?



Getting a lock on a clenched fist is hard to describe ... but I'll try.   First, let's try something so you get the idea of what we're going to do:

First - bend your own wrist with an open hand as far as it goes (as though you were doing situps only with your wrist).  
Second - bend your own wrist with a clenched fist as far as it goes (as though you were doing curls only with your wrist).

Notice - it doesn't go as far with the clenched fist as it does with an open hand, does it?

The idea is to stroke the back of the wrist and hand toward the knuckles and wrap your fingers over the top of the opponent's (like your hand is spooning or wrapped around the clenched fist). Your other hand would be on the opponent's low forearm.  The next two things happen at the same time:

1. Assuming you're defending against an incoming punch, you will turn your body - from the hips and possibly with an adjustment in your foot placement - so that the opponent's arm bends to form the bottom half of a square; you are facing at a 45 degree angle to the outside of the opponent facing you and the opponent's fingers would be pointing in that same direction.

2. Grip that hand and try to curl it down (like you did when you bent your wrist when your fist was clenched).  Some leverage on the forearm in the opposite direction will aid in the tension on the wrist.

Note that this is a long-shot if you and your opponent are not decently matched in strength or if you are not superior in strength.

It helps to also explore diminishing your projection - if someone knows you're going to try to lock them, you will not find success easily.

I'll see if I can post some pics later.


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## sgtmac_46 (May 20, 2010)

Kyosanim said:


> And there it is. I have received some fine suggestions on this matter, but this is it. How to get around the already clinched fist when applying a wrist lock. I stay as loose a possible when sparring however the general public does not.
> 
> Most low ranks are tense my self included at one point (white - purple). It took a long time for me to loosen up. This natural response makes people hard to wrist lock in a fighting type situation. So how to get around it? There must be a way. Suggestions?


 

Once someone has clenched their fist, in order to apply a wrist lock, one must first take his mind off of his clenched fist.........via some sort of distraction. Knee strike to the side of the leg, palm heel to the back of the head, something that causes his brain to stop focusing on the clenched fist.

Here's the reality, though. Someone who has clenched a fist as currently punching at you is making a wrist lock a low percentage technique. If you do manage to catch an arm, a straight arm bar, in my experience, is a much higher percentage technique.

Once a guy is on the ground, one can use the arm being held and turn the armbar in to a wrist lock to assist in handcuffing, for example.


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## MJS (May 20, 2010)

Kyosanim said:


> And there it is. I have received some fine suggestions on this matter, but this is it. How to get around the already clinched fist when applying a wrist lock. I stay as loose a possible when sparring however the general public does not.
> 
> Most low ranks are tense my self included at one point (white - purple). It took a long time for me to loosen up. This natural response makes people hard to wrist lock in a fighting type situation. So how to get around it? There must be a way. Suggestions?


 
As I said earlier, if something is not working, move onto something else.  In this case you have a few options...1) soften the person up, so that you can get the wrist lock or 2) move onto another lock.


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## Chris Parker (May 20, 2010)

Kyosanim said:


> And there it is. I have received some fine suggestions on this matter, but this is it. How to get around the already clinched fist when applying a wrist lock. I stay as loose a possible when sparring however the general public does not.
> 
> Most low ranks are tense my self included at one point (white - purple). It took a long time for me to loosen up. This natural response makes people hard to wrist lock in a fighting type situation. So how to get around it? There must be a way. Suggestions?


 
First off, the idea of grabbing a punch out of the air and applying a wrist lock is difficult to the point of being practicaly impossible to all but the best and luckiest of people. One of the reasons such actions are rather predominant in Japanese systems is that Japanese systems are more focused on grappling and grabbing attacks, and wrist locks are best used against a grabbing hand (when the other guy has generously "given" it to you), or as sgtmac said, when they are holding a weapon.

But if you want to know how to handle a clenched fist, well the simple thing is to open it! I tend to rarely give concrete technique here, but essentially I would most often opt for a strike to the metacarpals on the back of the hand. A good solid hit there will tend to at least weaken the fist, if not open it up entirely. Then grab and go! Cool?


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## Kyosanim (May 25, 2010)

Chris Parker said:


> First off, the idea of grabbing a punch out of the air and applying a wrist lock is difficult to the point of being practicaly impossible to all but the best and luckiest of people. One of the reasons such actions are rather predominant in Japanese systems is that Japanese systems are more focused on grappling and grabbing attacks, and wrist locks are best used against a grabbing hand (when the other guy has generously "given" it to you), or as sgtmac said, when they are holding a weapon.
> 
> But if you want to know how to handle a clenched fist, well the simple thing is to open it! I tend to rarely give concrete technique here, but essentially I would most often opt for a strike to the metacarpals on the back of the hand. A good solid hit there will tend to at least weaken the fist, if not open it up entirely. Then grab and go! Cool?




Thanks man thats pretty good idea. In fact I was just trouble shooting this on Saturday, and found a  couple of solutions myself. One is to attack the thumb. That seems to get some pretty consistent weakening of the clinched hand. Two there is a pressure point on the upper forearm to grab or strike if the person happens to be sensitive there. I have to say MJS is really right though the amount of trouble shooting I have put into this just to make this technique as effective as I was led to believe it was is ridiculous. And even now its still not the fifty million dollar technique they sell it as. I cannot figure out why they based an entire style of hapkido on these. This thread has kind of run its course, but I think a discussion on joint locks as a whole would be rather interesting as well as a productive topic that most everyone could enjoy.


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## Chris Parker (May 26, 2010)

Kyosanim said:


> Thanks man thats pretty good idea.
> 
> Not a problem.
> 
> ...


 
Yeah, this has been a good discussion, from all here. Very cool.

The big thing that you will need to realise here, though, is that you probably haven't been trying them with the correct application (when, where, how, which is far more than just the physical technique, as it incorporates the rest of the surrounding influences). And for that you will need a teacher who can take you through it fully.


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## zDom (May 27, 2010)

Kyosanim said:


> I cannot figure out why they based an entire style of hapkido on these.



Do you mean one specific style of hapkido that is based entirely on wrist locks?

Or are you mistakenly thinking that hapkido, as a rule, is "based on" wrist locking?

Because hapkido is much, much more than just a collection of wrist locks. It seems like a lot of people don't understand that.

My instructor makes clear from Day 1 that wrist locks are a long-term investment, that beginners may not be able to use them effectively until after years of training.

But have you ever notice how freakishly strong the grip of an old man or woman can be even when the rest of their body has become frail? In our latter years when our bones are becoming brittle and striking becomes less and less of a viable option, we will still have these techniques as an option.


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