# Kenpo and UFC style fighting



## seca2man (Nov 10, 2006)

Does anyone remember when the UFC first started? I think it was UFC 1 or 2 and I remember a guy named Keith Hackney (sp?) who was fighting this monster sized guy.  At the time I think his bio said that he was an American Kenpo Karate practitioner.  He won the fight against the giant, but in the next UFC, he went up against a Brazillian named Marco Ruas who basically took him to the ground and tied him up into submission.

I've watched UFC and Pride fighting off and on, and aside from Mr Hackney, I don't recall ever seeing another Kenpo fighter in the ring. Is Chuck Lidell (sp?) is a kempo practioner?  Do you think the rules against eye gouges and direct groin strikes limit what a Kenpo fighter can do in the ring against a skilled MMA?  

Please keep in mind that I'm not trying to start a blog war about whether the new breed of MMA is more effective than Kenpo, nor am I trying to insinuate that cage style fighting and street combat are the same thing.  Just curious what the skilled kenpo fighters out there think about their chances in a MMA arena.

Thanks

Sean


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## MJS (Nov 11, 2006)

seca2man said:


> Does anyone remember when the UFC first started? I think it was UFC 1 or 2 and I remember a guy named Keith Hackney (sp?) who was fighting this monster sized guy. At the time I think his bio said that he was an American Kenpo Karate practitioner. He won the fight against the giant, but in the next UFC, he went up against a Brazillian named Marco Ruas who basically took him to the ground and tied him up into submission.
> 
> I've watched UFC and Pride fighting off and on, and aside from Mr Hackney, I don't recall ever seeing another Kenpo fighter in the ring. Is Chuck Lidell (sp?) is a kempo practioner? Do you think the rules against eye gouges and direct groin strikes limit what a Kenpo fighter can do in the ring against a skilled MMA?
> 
> ...


 
IMHO, I think its very important to be as well rounded as possible.  Many will say that there is really no need to cross train, because there are already certain aspects in the art of Kenpo.  While this is true, IMO, in order to have a more well rounded understanding, looking outside of the box may be necessary.  A doctor can pretty much tell you if you have a medical problem, but what happens when its something out of their realm?  They send you to a specialist.  The FMAs can provide someone with with a better understanding of weapons, and a BJJ inst. can provide you with a better understanding of the ground.  

Chuck does have a Kempo background.  Here is a little bit of info on his inst.
http://www.knucklepit.com/mixed-martial-arts-john_hackleman.htm

I do feel that the rules do play a big part, and yes, that being said, it limits the Kenpoist as to what he can/can't do.  

I feel that the UFC has alot to offer, as far as training methods, conditioning, aliveness, etc., and I give those guys alot of credit for what they do.  Is it the end all-be all? Absolutely not.  

As I said in the beginning, I feel that its important to have a grappling background.  One of the instructors at the Kenpo school I attend has a Purple belt in BJJ, so he certainly brings alot to the table.

I hope this answered your questions.   If I can answer anything else, feel free to ask.:ultracool 

Mike


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## Eternal Beginner (Nov 11, 2006)

seca2man said:


> Do you think the rules against eye gouges and direct groin strikes limit what a Kenpo fighter can do in the ring against a skilled MMA?
> 
> Sean


Just to address this portion of your question as MJS seems to have covered everything else so well.

Yes, the rule set limits the kenpo fighter, but in the same way it limits the other fighter.  Your opponent also can't use eye gouges and groin strikes so the fighter with more weapons in his arsenal wins.  Frankly, if the only way you could win a fight is with eye-gouges and groin strikes you have limited yourself.


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## whitedragon_48 (Nov 12, 2006)

I don't believe kenpoists are have a limited arsenal in UFC, ours its just different. think of it as different keys that open the same door, but only one is "acceptable". I came to this coclusion while learning grappling (and he learning Kenpo) with a close friend of my instructor. He said to his students and quote: "These Kenpo guys are plain nasty! if you grab a leg make sure to put 'em down quick or they'll just jump up and hit you in the face with the other leg!" We grappled a lot. He did his BJJ and I picked what little I did and threw in some "cheap" kenpo shots. We concluded that in a street altercation, my "cheap shots" would've made him disengage or loosen his grip but in the ring, provided I didn't "cheat" he would've pravailed given his higher mastery of grappling compared to my basic grasp. 

So you see, Kenpo is not inferior, its just different, its not a sporting art, it wasn't meant ot be, it never will. It all a matter of "turf". Keep the sporting arts in the ring and the self-defense arts in the streets. One you step out of your "turf" you are in trouble. Why? 'Cuz you don't belong there.


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## Rich Parsons (Nov 12, 2006)

seca2man said:


> Does anyone remember when the UFC first started? I think it was UFC 1 or 2 and I remember a guy named Keith Hackney (sp?) who was fighting this monster sized guy. At the time I think his bio said that he was an American Kenpo Karate practitioner. He won the fight against the giant, but in the next UFC, he went up against a Brazillian named Marco Ruas who basically took him to the ground and tied him up into submission.
> 
> I've watched UFC and Pride fighting off and on, and aside from Mr Hackney, I don't recall ever seeing another Kenpo fighter in the ring. Is Chuck Lidell (sp?) is a kempo practioner? Do you think the rules against eye gouges and direct groin strikes limit what a Kenpo fighter can do in the ring against a skilled MMA?
> 
> ...




Is this the fight you are talking about?

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39624


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## Rook (Nov 12, 2006)

seca2man said:


> Does anyone remember when the UFC first started? I think it was UFC 1 or 2 and I remember a guy named Keith Hackney (sp?) who was fighting this monster sized guy. At the time I think his bio said that he was an American Kenpo Karate practitioner. He won the fight against the giant, but in the next UFC, he went up against a Brazillian named Marco Ruas who basically took him to the ground and tied him up into submission.


 
He actually lost to Royce Gracie in the same UFC.  Keith Hackney didn't fight fight Marco Ruas until much later.  Keith's record: http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/fightfinder.asp?FighterID=38.  



> I've watched UFC and Pride fighting off and on, and aside from Mr Hackney, I don't recall ever seeing another Kenpo fighter in the ring. Is Chuck Lidell (sp?) is a kempo practioner?


 
As a teenager, Chuck Lidell trained in Kajuboko (spelling) but gave it up for MMA.   He is no longer considered a kenpo practitioner.  



> Do you think the rules against eye gouges and direct groin strikes limit what a Kenpo fighter can do in the ring against a skilled MMA?


 
Not really.  



> Please keep in mind that I'm not trying to start a blog war about whether the new breed of MMA is more effective than Kenpo, nor am I trying to insinuate that cage style fighting and street combat are the same thing. Just curious what the skilled kenpo fighters out there think about their chances in a MMA arena.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Sean


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## Andrew Green (Nov 12, 2006)

"White tiger kenpo karate" is what he listed as, also had 2nd dans in Tae Kwon Do and Tang So Doo, and a 12-0 amatuer boxing record (11 KO's) and some wrestling experience 

His victory over Yarborough is what you saw (6'8" 650 lbs Sumo wrestler), he also beat Joe Son (who became a bit of a joke...) and lost to Royce Gracie and Marco Ruas.  2-2 UFC record.

Here's his Bio off his schools site: http://www.hackneyscombat.com/default.asp?page=11

Oh, and  a little correction to Rook's 

In UFC 3 he fought Yarborough and broke his hand, couldn't contiue.

In UFC 4 he beat Joe Son, then lost to Royce.

Both where 94, in 95 he fought Marco Ruas in Ultimate Ultimate '95 and lost.


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## James Kovacich (Nov 13, 2006)

Rook said:


> As a teenager, Chuck Lidell trained in Kajuboko (spelling) but gave it up for MMA. He is no longer considered a kenpo practitioner.
> 
> 
> 
> .


http://thepit.cmasdirect.com/site/view/21995_AboutUs.pml;jsessionid=6atdpcsj0a92h

Kempo is still in their name and if you read up on them they are Kempo. 

"In 1985, when I moved from Hawaii to California, I switched it from Kaju Kenbo to Hawaiian Kempo. I added some things to it, took away some things and started calling it Hawaiian Kempo. I took out the katas and the forms and I threw in more natural fighting techniques and conditioning. Now that&#8217;s my style. Like if you see Chuck (Liddell) with the tattoo on his arm, that&#8217;s the logo for my school." - John Hackleman

They just changed up becuase Hackleman never liked kata and other training methods that he felt "didn't fit." And judging by his success. Who can argue?


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## jgrimm01 (Nov 15, 2006)

the tattoo on the back of Chuck Liddell's head is the kanji for 'Kempo Karate'.


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## ldgman1970 (Nov 17, 2006)

I should say upfront that I am a total newbie in Kenpo, only training two years, but the question confuses me a little bit. There seems to be a underlying assumption that as Kenpoist all we do are techniques and forms and that we don't spar. In my school, and I am sure many others, we spar all the time and we make a lot of contact and sometimes people get hurt but we aren't doing eye gouges or full on groin shots. I guess I don't really know why there isn't some guy that holds himself out in the UFC as a Kenpo guy but that doesn't mean that one wont show up at some point. 

It seems to me that no matter what discipline you come from if you are going to be in successful in the UFC you would want to be as well rounded as possible. Anyone heading in the UFC from a Karate style background would definitely want to learn BJJ just as a BJJ person would want to learn some stand up or at least how to defend against it. I mean how many BJJ guys have we seen attempt to take Lidell down and get knocked out. Just my two cents...


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## DavidCC (Nov 17, 2006)

Rook said:


> He is no longer considered a kenpo practitioner.


 
That's not what he told me when I met him last year...


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## Gufbal1982 (Nov 23, 2006)

Chuck Liddell is a kempo practioner (he's actually a 5th degree black and head instructor at the pit in slo.), but he's also more than just that.  He also wrestled in college, he kickboxes, boxes, does jiu jitsu and is one of the best all around fighters imo.  kenpo studies all those things but barely scratches the surface.  the fact that Chuck Liddell does all this with his kempo instructor, John Hackleman is just awesome.  goes to really show how effective kempo can be if one chooses to go more in depth with it.  here's the website's that Chuck is on with his credentials:

http://thepit.cmasdirect.com/site/view/21999_Instructors.pml

http://www.icemanmma.com/content/view/15/46/

http://www.slokickboxing.com/instructors.htm


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## Odin (Nov 24, 2006)

jgrimm01 said:


> the tattoo on the back of Chuck Liddell's head is the kanji for 'Kempo Karate'.


 
also the tattoo on his arm reads kempo.


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## KenpoOG (Feb 23, 2011)

*So you see, Kenpo is not inferior, its just different, its not a sporting art, it wasn't meant ot be, it never will.*

I agree with the above quote. The problem is that most Kenpo "aristocracy" says that while simulataneously looking like Homer Simpson with a gi on. Leadership is a cult of personality type situation.

It would be a lot easier to follow a martial artist who trains hard and looks like Bruce Lee, then to look at Frank Trejo and say" Yep, I wanna look like that when I am good in Kenpo" No disrespect to Mr. Trejo, I dont know him. But he is for sure not on Atkins  

If you want to run a school, BE the part for sure, but LOOK the part as well.


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## ATACX GYM (Feb 25, 2011)

KenpoOG said:


> *So you see, Kenpo is not inferior, its just different, its not a sporting art, it wasn't meant ot be, it never will.*
> 
> I agree with the above quote. The problem is that most Kenpo "aristocracy" says that while simulataneously looking like Homer Simpson with a gi on. Leadership is a cult of personality type situation.
> 
> ...


 
Simple,straight ahead,real true speak.100% cosign on the fitness thing...but we already know that there's a vibrant sporting aspect to Kenpo which still is many times larger (participation-wise) than MMA is or is likely to be in its current iteration.


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## ATACX GYM (Feb 25, 2011)

MJS said:


> IMHO, I think its very important to be as well rounded as possible. Many will say that there is really no need to cross train, because there are already certain aspects in the art of Kenpo. While this is true, IMO, in order to have a more well rounded understanding, looking outside of the box may be necessary. A doctor can pretty much tell you if you have a medical problem, but what happens when its something out of their realm? They send you to a specialist. The FMAs can provide someone with with a better understanding of weapons, and a BJJ inst. can provide you with a better understanding of the ground.
> 
> Chuck does have a Kempo background. Here is a little bit of info on his inst.
> http://www.knucklepit.com/mixed-martial-arts-john_hackleman.htm
> ...


 

100% cosign.And GSP has a black belt in kyokushin,of course we know about Lyoto "The Dragon" and his Machida karate,Anderson Silva,Stephan Bonner,David Lousieau,and somebody else have black belts in TKD,Vitor Belfort has a black belt in Machida karate,and there are others but they slip my mind for now.


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