# Aikido and Tai Chi?



## pknox (Nov 2, 2003)

I have noticed that around me, quite a few Aikido dojo are beginning to offer Tai Chi classes as well (usually taught by someone else, brought in especially to teach the classes).  Does anyone here practice both arts?  Do you feel they complement each other well, or do you find it difficult to train in these arts simultaneously?


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## kenmpoka (Nov 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by pknox _
> *I have noticed that around me, quite a few Aikido dojo are beginning to offer Tai Chi classes as well (usually taught by someone else, brought in especially to teach the classes).  Does anyone here practice both arts?  Do you feel they complement each other well, or do you find it difficult to train in these arts simultaneously? *


Yes. Absolutely,
Tai Chi and Aikido have many teks and principles in common. Sokumen irimi and ward off right/left are two that come to mind.

Salute,


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## pknox (Nov 2, 2003)

Interesting.  Do you find the commonality makes them easier to study together, or harder?  The only analogy I can think of is with language -- I studied French for a while, and when I tried to pick up Spanish, I found it a bit difficult, as I always seemed to mix and confuse the two.  If I were to study German or Japanese, however, I would guess I wouldn't have that problem, as the languages are very different.  In your opinion, does the fact that the two arts share principles make it easy to confuse the two, or is that not an issue, and instead they enhance each other?


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## lhommedieu (Nov 2, 2003)

Personally, I find that studing martial arts that are similar (and more practical) than studying those that are completely different.  For example, one thing that I have found is that the Chinese Neija arts have commonalities with respect to _intention_ - i.e., they appear to share a common teaching methodology.  
This is why various forms of Xing Yi Quan, Ba Gua Zhang, and Tai Qi Quan are often learned,  either together or at various stages of one's development, despite their apparent outward differences.
One would never confuse Pi Quan with circle walking, for example - but one can eventually recognise that a linear technique can also be done in a spiral fashion, that a wave-like movement in the spine can also be perfomed, albeit differently, when the spine is placed under torsion, etc.  

Aikido appears to me to share in the same tacit language used to describe movement as the Neija arts.  What you would probably want to do, to make the study of both arts practical, is to compare the underlying principles of the atemi of aiki arts to the striking techniques of Tai Qi Quan, of the Chi-na and throwing techniques of Tai Qi Quan to the techniques of aiki arts, etc.  

Best, 

Steve Lamade


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## kenmpoka (Nov 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by pknox _
> *Interesting.  Do you find the commonality makes them easier to study together, or harder?  The only analogy I can think of is with language -- I studied French for a while, and when I tried to pick up Spanish, I found it a bit difficult, as I always seemed to mix and confuse the two.  If I were to study German or Japanese, however, I would guess I wouldn't have that problem, as the languages are very different.  In your opinion, does the fact that the two arts share principles make it easy to confuse the two, or is that not an issue, and instead they enhance each other? *


I would concentrate on either one at first under a competent instructor for a few years, then cross train in the other if you wish. This way you'll be able to see the commonalities and the differences. Both systems are hard to master, so take your time and do not rush.

Good luck, Salute.


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## Kempo Guy (Nov 3, 2003)

I studied Neijia (Tai Chi, Xing Yi and some Ba Gua) for a few years and have had some experience with Aikido. 

One of the aspects that carry over nicely to Aikido (imho) is the ground connection that you gain from practicing Neijia. This will help your balance and "strength" during the execution of a throw.
The form practice and the push-hands (as well as standing practice) are great exercises for developing this attribute, which I've always felt were lacking in Aikido (with perhaps the exeption of Ki society and Seidokan stuff). 

I think although there are outwardly similar techniques present in Neijia that exist in Aikido, the actual application of the techniques manifest themselves quite differently due to different principles being used. Then again, most Tai Ji teachers out there don't know much of the applications of forms... so it may be a moot point. 

Anyway, yes, I feel it is beneficial to your Aikido practice as it brings another dimension to it.

KG


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## MisterMike (Nov 3, 2003)

My primary arts are Kenpo and Aiki-Jutsu. Night and day polar opposites in the eyes of most, including my own. I find they do not really encroach on each other, but I can see many ways to borrow from each of them.

Kenpo can certainly use the throws after hammering someone, and the atemi in Aiki-Jujutsu can certainly come from Kenpo.


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## pete (Nov 12, 2003)

> Then again, most Tai Ji teachers out there don't know much of the applications of forms... -Kempo Guy



Most? Well I haven't trained with most, but find that would be a serious defect in one's ability to practice any martial art, much less teach. 

Would this also be true of most Aikido teachers out there? 

pete.


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## Kempo Guy (Nov 12, 2003)

I know I was generalizing, but unfortunately it is quite true. Most do not know the applications of the form... This does not mean that they're no good at performing push-hands. 
These are not my words but those of my teachers (and a couple of them admitted to not knowing the applications). Many if not most practice Tai Ji for the health benefits... (at least here on the West Coast).

There are no forms in Aikido per se, so I'm not sure what you mean? AFAIK, Aikido is all about application, not form. Are you trying to infer that Aikido isn't effective or am I missing something...?

KG


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## pete (Nov 12, 2003)

I guess my point is that as a martial art, tai chi does't have a strong hold on incompetent teachers.  There is enough of that to go around for everyone to beware.  It's a pretty broad brush your painting with to say MOST tai chi teachers don't know the applications of their forms.  I'd say that it may be true of some, just as some Aikido instructors are not the real thing either. 

I wouldn't infer that Aikido is either better or worse, more or less effective, or a superior or inferior art... just that the instructor of any martial art is key to one's practice. 

by the way, pushing hands is not a substitute for applications, and the two should not be confused.  i view pushing hands more as an exercise to improve one's stance and posture.


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## Kempo Guy (Nov 13, 2003)

I made the comment with a 'broad brush' as this is how it was related to me... Take it as you will. 



> by the way, pushing hands is not a substitute for applications, and the two should not be confused. i view pushing hands more as an exercise to improve one's stance and posture.



What I was trying to say was that because they don't know the application of the form doesn't mean that they don't know how to do push-hands (really well in many instances)... 
As for push-hands improving the stance and posture I agree, however I think this is a side-effect of training push-hands. I was taught that the practice of push-hands was to understand and develop the "sticking" as well as the yielding aspects of Tai Ji, and later the expelling of force (fajing). If anything the stance and posture training should come from your form. FWIW, I only trained in Tai Ji (Orthodox Tai Ji - Wang Shu Jin lineage) for about four years (I have some experience with Sun and Cheng style Ba Gua and to a smaller extent Xing Yi as well). 

KG


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## pete (Nov 16, 2003)

we're on the same page regarding pushing hands; applying the principles of yielding, leading, expanding, sinking, and coiling in partner practice tests one's stances and postures in ways that cannot be tested performing solo form alone.

my main reason for posting here, in response to a thread in the aikido forum, is due to the statement made regarding the competence level of "most" tai chi instructors.  This was based on one's limited experiences, and says nothing of the quality of "most" aikido instructors.  

someone interested in studying one of these arts should not assume from these posts that martial aspects are understood and taught with any greater efficacy in one art over the other as a general statement... 

pete.


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## arnisador (Nov 20, 2003)

Aikido and Tai Chi, Aikido and Systema...I keep hearing things being compared to Aikido! It's that hard-to-describe "feel" of the techniques I suppose.


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