# A Religion that Needs to Reset It's Moral Compass



## Sukerkin (May 13, 2013)

I have stumbled across this story thanks to one of my friends on Facebook:

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/...en-jailed-for-having-sex-out-of-marriage.html

I am rendered speechless not only that such a nation is countenanced in the international community but that the Australian government did nothing about it.

Religion in and of itself is a social control tool that can be used benignly or for oppression - most of the time it is the latter that it is used for but usually with some subtlety to hide what is going on from the majority of people.  Religious law that makes rulings like the one in the article is just a timebomb waiting to explode.


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## Carol (May 13, 2013)

Horrible 

And the who-cares and blame-the-victim anons are out in the comments


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## Big Don (May 13, 2013)

Sukerkin said:


> I have stumbled across this story thanks to one of my friends on Facebook:
> 
> http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/...en-jailed-for-having-sex-out-of-marriage.html
> 
> ...


Despite Muslims not being a race, comments like yours will get you called a racist...


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## billc (May 13, 2013)

I hate to say it but that is their moral compass.  The new term "islamic supremacist," covers the idea that sharia should be the law, and what happened is in the moral compass of islamic sharia law... in the first place she isn't a muslim, therefore she was unprotected.  If she had been a muslim, she would still have been a victim because as the article points out, she would need male witnesses to testify for her.  The "islamic supremacists," are everything the American left believes about Christianity...except it is real in most of the muslim world...as opposed to being confined to the fever dreams of the American liberal about Christians.

For this to change, the muslim community will need to change...don't see that happening anytime soon.

If the Australian government didn't do anything to help this woman, I wouldn't be surprised.  The fear of being called an islamaphobe has taken root in the west, and it supercedes any instinct to do the right thing against these outrages.


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## K-man (May 13, 2013)

Not sure you can blame the Australian Government here. There is a warning issued by the Government for travellers to The UAE.



> We advise you to exercise a high degree of caution in the UAE because of the threat of terrorist attack. We have in the past received reports that terrorists are planning attacks against Western interests in the UAE.
> Pay close attention to your personal security at all times and monitor the media for information about possible new safety or security risks.
> *When you are in the UAE, be aware that local laws and penalties, including ones that appear harsh by Australian standards, do apply to you. The UAE is a Muslim country and local laws reflect the fact that Islamic practices and beliefs are closely applied. Laws may also vary between individual Emirates. You should familiarise yourself with local laws before you travel.*
> The UAE has a zero tolerance policy towards illegal drugs. Penalties can include the death sentence or life imprisonment. Medications available over the counter or by prescription in Australia may be illegal in the UAE. There are strict laws on personal conduct, particularly in regard to sex and personal relationships, as well as the consumption and possession of alcohol.
> ...


I'm not sure that US citizens would do any better in this situation either.


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## DennisBreene (May 14, 2013)

Travel 
From the US Dept. of State Travel advisory section for United Arab Emirates; an excerpt from a long advisory - "



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*United Arab Emirates
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SPECIAL CIRCUMSTANCES: The Government of the United Arab Emirates does not recognize dual nationality. Children of UAE fathers automatically acquire UAE citizenship at birth and must enter the UAE on UAE passports. UAE authorities have confiscated U.S. passports of UAE/U.S. dual nationals in the past. This act does not constitute loss of U.S. citizenship, but should be reported to the U.S. Embassy in Abu Dhabi or the U.S. Consulate General in Dubai. 
In addition to being subject to all UAE laws, U.S. citizens who also hold UAE citizenship may also be subject to other laws that impose special obligations on citizens of the UAE. For additional information, please refer to our information on dual nationality. 
Codes of behavior and dress in the UAE reflect the country's Islamic traditions and are much more conservative than those of the United States. Visitors to the UAE should be respectful of this conservative heritage, especially in the Emirate of Sharjah where rules of decency and public conduct are strictly enforced. Public decency and morality laws throughout the UAE are much stricter than in the United States. Penalties for public displays of affection or immodesty can be severe. Travelers have been sentenced to lengthy jail terms for kissing in public. Homosexual activity is illegal in the UAE and is punished by imprisonment. LGBT travelers should review the LGBT Travel Information page. Sexual relations outside marriage and adultery are illegal in the UAE and convicted individuals have been punished by lengthy jail sentences. 
Travelers should keep in mind the cultural differences among the many people who coexist in the UAE and should be cognizant that unwitting actions, including clothing choices, may invite unwanted attention. Isolated incidents of verbal and physical harassment of Western women have occurred. Victims of harassment are encouraged to report such incidents to the U.S. Embassy in Abu Dhabi or the U.S. Consulate General Dubai."                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       *When citizens of foreign countries travel abroad they are subject to the local laws and there seems to be little that their own government can do to intercede.  There are warnings for any number of circumstances posted for travel to numerous specific countires throughout the world. Humans are prone to fanatacism, criminal behavior, extreme and seemingly irrational cultural responses of all nature and when such behavior is sanctified by the laws of a sovereign nation, you are at their mercy. (or lack thereof). While the actions are unconsionable in my mind, I don't think diplomatic channels are very efficient in advocating for "special treatment" in the eyes of the host country. Perhaps a much more concerted and public effort to discourage contact and travel to such countries would as least serve to forewarn travelors of the risks they take.  I doubt boycotting countries such as those in the UAE would have much impact on the attitudes within those countries because the fundamentalist agenda seems to be one of isolation anyway.  I think that in many ways, the US at least is essentially at war with many of these nations. In such a situation we can collectively choose to shun the countries we feel are most agregious, refuse to deal with them economically, have strict and punative travel restrictions on people entering the US from these countries, trade sanctions, etc.  In the end I suspect these would result in further ill will and polarization.  But, in my gut, I absolutely don't like the idea of just letting our citizens being treated in such ways and doing nothing.  I recognize that fanatics of any nature are unlikely to change, but maybe the moderate forces in these societies will begin to recoginize the consequences of letting the fanatics dictate their political agenda and be moved to take back control of their own societies.  I'm afraid I'm pessimistic that anything will change for the better for some time.


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## jks9199 (May 14, 2013)

K-man said:


> Not sure you can blame the Australian Government here. There is a warning issued by the Government for travellers to The UAE.
> 
> I'm not sure that US citizens would do any better in this situation either.



Unfortunately, US travelers have a reputation for being rather shocked and amazed to discover that the laws in other countries are different...  and that the constitutional protections we have here don't apply in another country, either.

I do run into it with tourists from other countries here, as well.


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## Sukerkin (May 14, 2013)

Generally speaking I don't disagree that people should be aware that the laws of the lands where they travel apply to them; that's just a reasonable expectation.  To go to prison because you were drugged and gang raped is, I feel, rather a different circumstance.  I still cannot believe that the poor womans government applied no pressure to get her released.  

But I live in the days of Empire still, so I have funny ideas about such things.


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## granfire (May 14, 2013)

Sukerkin said:


> Generally speaking I don't disagree that people should be aware that the laws of the lands where they travel apply to them; that's just a reasonable expectation.  To go to prison because you were drugged and gang raped is, I feel, rather a different circumstance.  I still cannot believe that the poor womans government applied no pressure to get her released.
> 
> But I live in the days of Empire still, so I have funny ideas about such things.



It is a tough concept to swallow. But then again, we are not too far removed from that mind set ourselves.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think we ever threw women in jail (or stoned them) for being raped, but they were pretty much done for after. 
How much they did or not through diplomatic circles, will we ever know?

As much as I would like to go see that part of the country, I don't think I'd move there on a more permanent basis....

yes, it can come as a shock to travelers that the local laws will be applied to them. And that some parts of the wolrd are also rather standoffish - not to call them racist - toward foreigners....


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## arnisador (May 14, 2013)

Wow.


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## K-man (May 14, 2013)

Sukerkin said:


> To go to prison because you were drugged and gang raped is, I feel, rather a different circumstance.  I still cannot believe that the poor womans government applied no pressure to get her released.
> 
> But I live in the days of Empire still, so I have funny ideas about such things.


I agree totally, but do we know what was happening behind the scenes?  :asian:


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## elder999 (May 14, 2013)

Okay, three things, really. First off-this is just awful, really-monstrous. Even more monstrous, perhaps, in that it refers to the perpetrators as "colleagues," who may have been Arabs, but might as easily have been Europeans or Australians, who knew the law of the land and took complete advantage.

Second, we have to remember that it's not "a religion" that needs to reset it's moral compass, necessarily, but a twisted interpretation of that religion, seen through a _cultural_ lens: this happened in an Arabic nation, and such people are really only a small part of the worldwide population of Islam. Even amongst their numbers, there are a variety of flavors of Islam besides this narrow and twisted interpretation that is what so many of us think of first. In some "Islamic" countries,like Indonesia, these men would be in serious trouble.

Last;y, of course, spit on the sidewall in Singapore? Get caned. Smoke a joint in Malaysia? Get hung. Get nude on a beach in Mexico? Spend some time in a Mexican jail, and, eventually, some money (Ask me!!!) Know where you are, and behave accordingly.


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## arnisador (May 14, 2013)

General agreement on the tone, but:



elder999 said:


> Second, we have to remember that it's not "a religion" that needs to reset it's moral compass, necessarily, but a twisted interpretation of that religion



Twisted, or merely literal?


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## elder999 (May 15, 2013)

arnisador said:


> General agreement on the tone, but:
> 
> 
> 
> Twisted, or merely literal?



*Twisted.* 

Even in Chechnya, where they practice Wahabism/Salafism, there is not such a stringent and culturally biased interpretation of Sharia-Wahabism also has a history of pretty violent opposition  from mainstream Sunni and Sufi Muslims in much of east-Asia: China, Malaysia, Indonesia and the Philippines, though it has taken a toehold there-Remember, Wahabism has really only been around since the 18th century, and really only gained a greater influence in the latter half of the 20th century, thanks in no small part to Saudi Arabia.

No, not "merely literal," but twisted, and a minority practice at that-albeit one with far-reaching influence and financial power.


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## Makalakumu (May 15, 2013)

Before Westerners start feeling really good about themselves, I think it's important to remember that people in countries pointing the fingers have invaded dozens of countries, murdered millions of innocents, and displaced millions more.  Iraq has been mutilated beyond recognition, 1.5 million dead because of the war, 4 million displaced, depleted uranium has been sprayed willy nilly around the land and it will murder for generations.  All the while, the finger pointers waved flags and looked the other way and the people who opposed the war castrated their movement with hypocrisy as soon as they felt they got their team in power.  

When you hold incidents like this up for comparison with the reality of what has been done by the finger pointers, it's not so terribly different.  In fact, political leaders in the West have claimed that 500,000 dead muslim children is a perfectly good price for getting rid of one guy.  In my opinion, this rotten society needs to look in the mirror before it dares claim that anyone else needs to reset it's moral compass.


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## K-man (May 15, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> Before Westerners start feeling really good about themselves, I think it's important to remember that people in countries pointing the fingers have invaded dozens of countries, murdered millions of innocents, and displaced millions more.  Iraq has been mutilated beyond recognition, 1.5 million dead because of the war, 4 million displaced, depleted uranium has been sprayed willy nilly around the land and it will murder for generations.  All the while, the finger pointers waved flags and looked the other way and the people who opposed the war castrated their movement with hypocrisy as soon as they felt they got their team in power.
> 
> When you hold incidents like this up for comparison with the reality of what has been done by the finger pointers, it's not so terribly different.  In fact, political leaders in the West have claimed that 500,000 dead muslim children is a perfectly good price for getting rid of one guy.  In my opinion, this rotten society needs to look in the mirror before it dares claim that anyone else needs to reset it's moral compass.


OK *Maka*, I'll call.  I've looked everywhere and I cannot find 1.5 million dead Iraqis or the 4 million displaced. As to political leaders in the West claiming 500,000 dead Muslims is an acceptable price for getting rid of one guy, can I ask, who apart from Madeleine Albright made that claim?  I can't even find that 500,000 Iraqi children died.



> Iraq Body Count, a website that totals the reported number of dead in each incident, has reached a similar conclusion to the latest study. It currently places the number of civilian deaths at between 111,687 and 122,108.
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ears-on-at-least-116000-civilians-killed.html





> A UN issued report dated Sept 20, 2006 stating that Iraqi civilian casualties have been significantly under-reported. Casualties are reported at 50,000 to over 100,000, but may be much higher. Some informed estimates place Iraqi civilian casualities at over 600,000.
> http://usliberals.about.com/od/homelandsecurit1/a/IraqNumbers.htm





> An estimated 2.1 million Iraqis were internally displaced as of the end of 2012, of whom more than three-quarters were living in protracted displacement.
> http://www.internal-displacement.org/countries/iraq


Can I say that estimates of casualties vary widely. I agree with you that the price to remove Sadam was way too high and like you, I did not think that the military action was justified. It's not that I disagree with the sentiment  of your post. Just that I find that exaggerated figures take away from the validity of your case.    :asian:


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## Makalakumu (May 15, 2013)

I doubt you've looked everywhere, because these figures are out there in various publications. Even if you want to use more conservative numbers, the comparison is still telling. You can take the Iraq Body count number, divide it by 3000 and come up with multiple 9/11s per year for regular Iraqi people. If you look at the blockade period before, that's where you see the real impact on children. The 500,000 is an estimate that the Secretary of State was confronted with in an interview, even if it's wrong, it's still telling about the mindset.

I don't think the West can criticize anyone's moral compass with a track record like this.

Incidentally, another angle on this story is the idea that it simply is just another fan for the flames of dehumanization that make this foreign policy possible. I'm sure it's provided plenty of grist for the propaganda mills. Islamophobes with microphones are frothing at the mouth with justifications for brutality.


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## billc (May 15, 2013)

Hmmm...the blockade...really, when he was supposed to allow inspections and didn't, when he was routinely targeting Allied aircraft enforcing the no fly zone...to keep him from killing the Kurds.  I always find it funny that people blame the sanctions for the deaths of his people


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## Makalakumu (May 15, 2013)

billc said:


> Hmmm...the blockade...really, when he was supposed to allow inspections and didn't, when he was routinely targeting Allied aircraft enforcing the no fly zone...to keep him from killing the Kurds.  I always find it funny that people blame the sanctions for the deaths of his people



The entire situation was contrived by the West in the first place. Saddam is just another henchman, except this one became inconvenient. Whether he killed his own people, our blockade killed them, or the effects of war to remove him killed them, the blame rests entirely on the West and it's foreign policy.

And people wonder why people who live there and happen to be muslim might have a problem with the West? If it's not the henchman, it's the West itself killing. I think this violence is the biggest reason more radical forms of Islam have any traction at all. A vengeful god is perfect for brutalized people.


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## granfire (May 15, 2013)

Maybe he is too young to remember....Saddam was our favorite go-to-guy in the 80s, when all that counted was sticking it to Iran (while Reagan's people were wheeling and dealing with them...oh my)


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## Makalakumu (May 15, 2013)

I've created a thread to talk about the moral reality of Iraq War.  

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/109611-Iraq-A-Decade-of-Hell

I think it's important to recognize one's own moral compass before trying to criticize anothers.


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## Sukerkin (May 15, 2013)

I've a feeling you at least partially missed my point with this thread my forumites.  But threads take on lives of their own I suppose, even tho' they are supposed to stay as on-topic as possible in the Study.


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## K-man (May 15, 2013)

Sukerkin said:


> I've a feeling you at least partially missed my point with this thread my forumites.  But threads take on lives of their own I suppose, even tho' they are supposed to stay as on-topic as possible in the Study.


It's OK *Suk*, he's gone and if he thinks I'm going to watch an hour of Stefan Molyneux ..... !  Sharia law is always going to be a problem for the West and that is even in relatively benign Muslim states. What happens when radical Islam takes over is much, much worse. Unfortunately that is what is happening on a large scale in the Middle East and why I am against a lot of our immigration where we allow displaced persons and refugees into our country and some of them immediately demand that we allow them Sharia law.   These same people preach hatred in their mosques and incite violence in our community.  

As to the OP.  I suppose some of the truth will come out in court. I'm not sure what she expects to get by suing  the Australian Government. She would be better suing her employer in my opinion. Even then, she seems to have ignored the advice she was given. 

I don't know that it is a moral compass issue as such. It is the result of a radical religeon that places no value on human life and gives no rights to women.  Short of another crusade I don't expect to see things improving any time soon.  :asian:


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## Makalakumu (May 16, 2013)

What should be the North Star for Islam to guide it's moral compass?


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## Big Don (May 16, 2013)

How about basic human rights, or not treating women as property?


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## Makalakumu (May 16, 2013)

Big Don said:


> How about basic human rights, or not treating women as property?



Imagine having this conversation with a muslim man in a country where the US foreign policy was in action. What would he say in response?


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## ballen0351 (May 16, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> Imagine having this conversation with a muslim man in a country where the US foreign policy was in action. What would he say in response?



There isn't one.  Even in Muslim countries where we are located woman still are required to be covered and treated like property.


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## Sukerkin (May 16, 2013)

That isn't really relevant to the topic tho', is it, my friend?  I'm not gainsaying what you are attempting to put across, just pointing out that it is not what this thread is about.  Not directly at least altho' I can see parallels.

What my thoughts were, that caused me to open the topic in the first place, centred on two things.  The first, hence the thread title, being that a religion that enshrines in it's law the punishment of the victim because of gender is in need of resetting it's sense of what is moral to something more in keeping with the general consensus on such things.  The second was that I was amazed that the poor woman's home government couldn't help her more than it did - given that she is suing them I think she is less than satisfied in that regard too.  Perhaps it was because there was alcohol involved and that that, rather than the gang rape, was what landed her in prison?


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## Big Don (May 16, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> Imagine having this conversation with a muslim man in a country where the US foreign policy was in action. What would he say in response?



Because that makes it ok to kill women for being rape victims...


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## Makalakumu (May 16, 2013)

Big Don said:


> Because that makes it ok to kill women for being rape victims...



Is that your answer?


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## K-man (May 16, 2013)

Sukerkin said:


> What my thoughts were, that caused me to open the topic in the first place, centred on two things.  The first, hence the thread title, being that a religion that enshrines in it's law the punishment of the victim because of gender is in need of resetting it's sense of what is moral to something more in keeping with the general consensus on such things.  The second was that I was amazed that the poor woman's home government couldn't help her more than it did - given that she is suing them I think she is less than satisfied in that regard too.  Perhaps it was because there was alcohol involved and that that, rather than the gang rape, was what landed her in prison?


When religion and the law become entwined you are always going to have problems as we can see in this case. Under Sharia law the religious aspect over rides any secular law. In this case the lady had two things going against her. While it was fine for her to drink alcohol discreetly the situation changed once the police became involved. She was told that. Fir drinking alcohol she received a one month term. She was advised not to report the rape but because of her injuries she felt she needed to go to the hospital. She was asked if she wanted to involve the police and advised that could cause trouble. It did, she had another eleven months added for having sex outside marriage. Two of the guys also got eleven months and one got more. So in one way she got what she wanted, the guys punished.  What we as Westerners object to is the fact that she was punished too when we would all recognise her innocence. But that is not the law of that land. We don't know what involvement the Australian Government had in trying to negotiate behind the scenes. Maybe their intervention was the cause of her receiving a four month remission on her sentence.

But what is the sad thing here, and something we see across the Western world thanks to lawyers, when **** happens it is always someone else's fault.  :asian:


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## elder999 (May 16, 2013)

Big Don said:


> How about basic human rights, or not treating women as property?


 Again, these are cultural issues that are medieval in origin-they predate Islam. It's medieval thinking tied to a religion, tied to a political and legal system based on that twisted version of the religion. It's *not* the "religion."  It's as much an Arab problem as it is an Islam problem, and maybe even more an Arab problem.......


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