# Honesty the best Policy?



## Yu Sul Man (Sep 1, 2004)

Hello All
    I came upon an interesting question and I did not know how to respond. Perhaps I could obtain some insight with your help. Recently I found out that a MA instructor I know happens to be Homosexual. He does not tell his students. Do you think he owes his students an explanation in his personal life. I believe his life should be lived the way he wants to but a certain honesty should exsit between him and his students. I feel if he is up front with his life style then people would respect him more then if others would find out else where. He is a good instructor and good with the kids. The honesty thing is just bugging me though.

    John


----------



## iron_ox (Sep 1, 2004)

Hello John,

No disrespect here, but even posing this kind of question, guised as a "he can get more respect" thing seems homo-phobic.  If he is not your instructor, it is certainly none of your business.  If he is, then you owe him the respect to leave whatever he wants private to be private.

This is a very odd request to ask a general forum - are you trying to out him here?  

In my opinion, before you do damage that cannot be undone, abandon this line of worthless enquiry.

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor


----------



## Feisty Mouse (Sep 1, 2004)

It is his business.  Just as I would not tell a class about my sexual activities as a heterosexual woman, or who I am attracted to, I would assume he would not bring it up in class.  It is a moot point, and not appropriate for the classroom - be it martial arts or otherwise.

I would give him the respect you think he deserves, and allow him to tell or not tell whomever he wants in his life.  Honesty and respect go both ways.  If you want to be honest with him, then, in private, you may decide to talk to him about it - but it not up to anyone else but him to talk to his students or colleagues about it.  Respect his apparent decision to keep that part of his life private. I certainly don't march around telling people about my sex life, and I expect him to be the same way.


----------



## shesulsa (Sep 1, 2004)

iron_ox said:
			
		

> No disrespect here, but even posing this kind of question, guised as a "he can get more respect" thing seems homo-phobic. If he is not your instructor, it is certainly none of your business. If he is, then you owe him the respect to leave whatever he wants private to be private.
> 
> This is a very odd request to ask a general forum - are you trying to out him here?
> 
> In my opinion, before you do damage that cannot be undone, abandon this line of worthless enquiry.


 I must agree.  To urge the point a little further, do you owe a certain honesty to your students as to your sexual practices / preferences?  I don't think I need this information from my teacher.

 Why must this instructor out himself?  Personally, I think it takes courage to stand by one's convictions whether out or not.  Those who are out risk certain danger in bashing, whether verbal, professional or physical.  Those who are not risk speculation, gossip, uncertainty.  This is a no-win situation and the only way out of it is diversion of the general eye.

 Why not just continue to encourage this man in his martial endeavors and lend him a supportive ear?  There is no need for him to come out to his class, IMHO.


----------



## Tkang_TKD (Sep 1, 2004)

I think the instructors personal life is a private matter.  What the instructor shares is entirely up to him/her.


----------



## The Kai (Sep 1, 2004)

It is his own business- If he is professional and don't affect the school


----------



## michaeledward (Sep 1, 2004)

Yu Sul Man said:
			
		

> Do you think he owes his students an explanation in his personal life.


No.
He *owes* his students Martial Arts instruction. That is what they pay for. 



			
				Yu Sul Man said:
			
		

> . . . but a certain honesty should exsit between him and his students.


Absolutely. 
He should be honest about Martial Arts instruction. He should not teach them deceptively.



			
				Yu Sul Man said:
			
		

> I feel if he is up front with his life style then people would respect him more then if others would find out else where.


How would others find out elsewhere? Unless someone who knew, shared that knowledge *without* the instructors permission or blessing. That action would be disrespectful and disgraceful. 



			
				Yu Sul Man said:
			
		

> The honesty thing is just bugging me though.


Witholding this information is not being dis-honest, so there is no reason for this to bug you. It would be better, if you are disturbed by this, that you find a way to avoid contact with this instructor, avoid contact with his students, and avoid ever talking about this again.

It might also be useful for you to realize that studies show between 2 and 10% of the adult population of this country are gay. There are probably more of 'them' around you that you realize. Does that bug you too?

Mike


----------



## shesulsa (Sep 1, 2004)

michaeledward said:
			
		

> It might also be useful for you to realize that studies show between 2 and 10% of the adult population of this country are gay. There are probably more of 'them' around you that you realize. Does that bug you too?


 ...and between 2 and 10% of the animal kingdom is also gay.  I wonder if they *choose* that lifestyle?  Maybe they need to pray more?  I'll bet they could be converted, since that behavior is of the devil and evil and wrong in God's eyes.  We should round up all the homosexual animals in the world, make them announce to the world that they are gay (for honesty's sake), then put them in a rehab program.

 Yeah, that's the ticket....

 CAVEAT:  Yu Sul, this post is not intended to indicate this is your intention or inferrence - just a little political jab at right-wing Christian homophobes.


----------



## Spud (Sep 1, 2004)

It's his private life and not a school issue. There's no honesty issue here. My office doesn't require me to disclose all personal issues that may be offensive to my colleagues. 

 My Sensei rides a motorcycle without a helmet. I don't approve of that and arguably it sets a bad example for his students. That is still his business.


----------



## Yu Sul Man (Sep 1, 2004)

Hello all thanks for the replies

I think it does have alot to do with MA we as instructors , especially when we teach kids. I personally dont want my young son to be taught by a person that is homosexual. It is my choice. But the instructor is not giving people that chocice if he is not up front with it I work with alot of people that are homosexuals and I get along fine with them. But that is the end of my involvement with them. 
 It is none of my business of their sexual  preference but I have the right to know who is involved in my life and my kids life. I think all parents out there would agree. 

    I mean not to offend anyone but if a martial art instructors private life is none of their students business , then that just opens a whole can of worms. We should be pillars of society. 

  Regards John


----------



## Feisty Mouse (Sep 1, 2004)

Well, if you are homophobic, then it is up to you to pull your kids out of a gay person's class.  Although I shudder to think what you are teaching your kids.

Homosexuality isn't "catching", and gay men are less likely to molest children then men who consider themselves to be straight.  

I guess I should find out who's homophobic in my classes, and decide not to work with them.  Except that's intolerant.


----------



## skaterlac (Sep 1, 2004)

Hi Johnboy!  Has this teacher been dishonest actually?  I mean has anyone asked .. excuse me teacher... are you gay?  And he answered with dishonesty?  

Other than that, for the public sanction of the school.. if eel it is probably not appropritate to bring sexual orientation up... along with some of those other things like political affiliation, religious affiliation and so on....

But possibly for those "inner-door" students who may be in the situation where one may become an apprectice or disciple, maybe discussion at that depth may be more appropriate. And certainly when questioned, honesty seems more important.

Thinking of that... There are other teachers that I know of that are actually convicted pediphiles (sp?) and they claim to be straight as an arrow.  They have great martial skill.  Big Qi, hahaha..   However,  some inner -door students did suffer the consequences.. Hmmm....


----------



## Tkang_TKD (Sep 1, 2004)

Yu Sul Man said:
			
		

> I personally dont want my young son to be taught by a person that is homosexual. It is my choice.


Yes it is your choice entirely.  Does being homosexual in any way shape or form invalidate the instructors ability to teach?



			
				Yu Sul Man said:
			
		

> But the instructor is not giving people that chocice if he is not up front with it


That is that wonderful thing called personal freedom at work.  The instructors personal life is of no consequence unless there is criminal activity at play. Last time I looked, being gay was only a crime if your a right-wing religious wacko.




			
				Yu Sul Man said:
			
		

> I work with alot of people that are homosexuals and I get along fine with them.


This is the same argument as "I can't be a racist, I have alot of friends that are ______________ (Fill in race of choice)"



			
				Yu Sul Man said:
			
		

> It is none of my business of their sexual preference but I have the right to know who is involved in my life and my kids life. I think all parents out there would agree.


I totally agree, and as a responsible parent, there are many things you can do.  You can observe the instructors interaction with your child, you can probably even find out if the instructor has any history of inappropriate behavior children, and you can get other parents views and opinions.



			
				Yu Sul Man said:
			
		

> I mean not to offend anyone but if a martial art instructors private life is none of their students business , then that just opens a whole can of worms. We should be pillars of society.


What does being Gay have to do with ones standing in the community?


----------



## michaeledward (Sep 1, 2004)

Yu Sul Man said:
			
		

> Hello all thanks for the replies
> 
> I think it does have alot to do with MA we as instructors , especially when we teach kids. I personally dont want my young son to be taught by a person that is homosexual. It is my choice. But the instructor is not giving people that chocice if he is not up front with it I work with alot of people that are homosexuals and I get along fine with them. But that is the end of my involvement with them.
> It is none of my business of their sexual preference but I have the right to know who is involved in my life and my kids life. I think all parents out there would agree.
> ...


BULLHOCKEY!

If the instructor is practicing sexual techniques in the studio, then, OF COURSE, it is your business. But what he does in the privacy of his own home and bedroom is none-of-your-g0d-damned-business.

You absolutely have the responsibility to know who is involved in your childrens' lives ... but you do not have the right to know their private business, whether it be bank balances, or sexual preferences.

And your implication that gay men and women can not be pillars of society demonstrates intolerance and bigotry; how can someone with such attributes be considered a pillar of society?

Take your children out of his studio, if you must. And when you do so, you can even keep on believing that you are a pillar of society, but that is not what I see.

Mike


----------



## hardheadjarhead (Sep 1, 2004)

Yu Sul Man said:
			
		

> I feel if he is up front with his life style then people would respect him more then if others would find out else where. He is a good instructor and good with the kids. The honesty thing is just bugging me though.
> 
> John




Where I'm from such a confession would bring a quick end to the instructor's career.

We live in a society that has yet to accept Gays without condemnation.  There are people who are convinced that homosexuals are out to "convert" their children to the homosexual lifestyle.  Still others believe that homosexuals seek to seduce their children--lumping all homosexuals in with homosexual pedophiles.  A great number of straight men feel threatened by Gay men.  While all of these fears are unfounded, they do exist and prejudice a large segment of America's population.

It sounds, John, as if you buy into those myths of homosexuality.  Your post almost gives the impression that you think it a communicable disease.

Pity.


Regards,


Steve


----------



## TigerWoman (Sep 1, 2004)

What if you were homosexual and found out that your kids teacher was hetero? The situation is reversed.  Homosexuality in itself is not a crime nor does it hurt others intentionally.  This instructor is not a pedophile is he?  His sexual preferences are private, you should not be concerned.  I am a parent and nearly raised both of my children. I would never be concerned with a homosexual teacher.  Its only when they have crossed the line to also be a pedophile. Anybody can cross that line. There are too many homosexuals to judge one person to that extreme without any facts or guilt present.  In fact, I know one, a friend, who is openly gay, and is also very much a "pillar of society" and an asset to the community, a teacher of children, and very much a honorable man. Be honest with yourself.  TW


----------



## clfsean (Sep 1, 2004)

His life, his choices. 

As long as he's not pushing a political/social agenda that may make people uncomfortable, then what does it matter??  As long as he's not HIV/AIDS positive (this goes for hetero practitioners as well) & putting himself in a position to bleed on the students, then what does it matter?? 

I'd rather have a gay man or woman (admitted or not) teaching my niece than a straight guy who may have pedphilic tendancies...


----------



## someguy (Sep 1, 2004)

If asked then it's his buesness about if he is open or not.  In some places it could bring large amounts of trouble to him.  
Should he go around and be like hey every one guess what... That also is his buessness.  He doesn't really need to though.  He has no obligations to do so.
Wahoo I'm now a martial talk black belt.
*edited to brag about making 500 posts.


----------



## loki09789 (Sep 1, 2004)

Yu Sul Man said:
			
		

> Hello All
> I came upon an interesting question and I did not know how to respond. Perhaps I could obtain some insight with your help. Recently I found out that a MA instructor I know happens to be Homosexual. He does not tell his students. Do you think he owes his students an explanation in his personal life. I believe his life should be lived the way he wants to but a certain honesty should exsit between him and his students. I feel if he is up front with his life style then people would respect him more then if others would find out else where. He is a good instructor and good with the kids. The honesty thing is just bugging me though.
> 
> John


Is this an honesty issue or discression and professionalism/appropriateness question?  If I don't discuss my sexuality/activities/orientation in class as a hetero why should it be an honesty issue for a homosexual to practice the same level of professionalism.

Most workplace/institution/educational policies on harassment and appropriateness basically promote the idea that if it is not within the job description of the employees and/or will potentially make for an uncomfortable/hostile work environment it should not be discussed/acted out or promoted in any way in the work place/institution.

I really don't see how being gay or straight has anything to do with the job description of a martial arts instructor.  If they can perform the job well and meet/exceed expectations/standards nothing else should matter.  Same issues were discussed in the past about women, minorities, handicap.... who cares as long as they can do the job and act professionally.

I would say there are some heterosexual mainstream types out there that could use lessons in being appropriate/professional and discreet themselves.


----------



## Mithios (Sep 1, 2004)

What the instructor doe's on his own time is no one's business. Unless it's some kind of criminal behavior. How doe's him being gay affect his teaching ability? It doe's not mean he will "turn" you'r child gay, or molest them!! If he's a good teacher, then that is what should matter.   Mithios


----------



## Gary Crawford (Sep 1, 2004)

What if you are wrong and he's not?Now how fair would that be to him or your kids if you take them out of his class? You could have a private discussion with him and ask him,but that's really not a fair position to put him in if he is.You need to know some facts.I understand every parents fear of pedophiles getting hold of their children,but pedophiles are not really gay,they are deviates.Homosexuals,for the most part want the same things as us straight people,long term monogamous relationships.And since they can't have children the same way we do,they often crave a suedo parental relationship and a martial arts instructor is a good thing for them.If he is gay,it's a lot better he satisfy his parental needs that way than the ones who actually get married to a woman so they can have kids of their own and sleep with men on the side.Actually,pedophiles are really hard to recognize.


----------



## Feisty Mouse (Sep 1, 2004)

I'm glad so many folks here have addressed the issue of "homosexual man does not equal pedophile".  It's a popular myth which is just not seen - the majority of pedophiles are straight (even if it's a man who molests young boys).

I'll have to find some numbers on this.


----------



## Yu Sul Man (Sep 1, 2004)

I am glad that there are people who are in the MA who are open minded as the person I was refering to is a very good friend of 12 years. Frankly I dont care what his preference is after all he is my best friend and the god parent of my kids. I took the negative approach to be the devil's advocate.  I would like to say what a great group of people are in this foreum. He doesnt teach my kids (thats my job haha) but when he teaches the kids at the dojang I know his heart is only on the best interest of the children.
   With warmest regards
    John


----------



## sma_book (Sep 1, 2004)

Yu Sul Man said:
			
		

> Hello all thanks for the replies
> 
> It is none of my business of their sexual  preference but I have the right to know who is involved in my life and my kids life. I think all parents out there would agree.
> 
> ...



I absolutely have to agree! Why, I still endure emotional distress from my own childhood traumas! Granted, in my situation, these were _*heterosexual*_ men going after a young girl, but the principle is the same, right? 

Considering the potential for abuse, I think that both hetero and homosexuals should be prevented from teaching martial arts, or from being in other positions where they might negatively impact children for that matter. 

Oh, wait.... guess that ends up being kind of silly.

<sigh> Better go back to that whole benefit-of-a-doubt/private-life/innocent-before-proven-guilty approach. Dratted Founding Fathers.

Seriously, I do believe people should be honest and truthful. I do believe that people should stand up an live according to their convictions. 

But, considering that: 
a) homosexuality is still not widely accepted by a majority of the population and still faces quite a bit of discrimination
b) sexual preference and predilections have no place in a martial arts school, place of busines, et al
c) it's hard enough (at least for me) to live a 'normal' day honorably without that extra challenge of being gay 
.. I think that the instructor is doing exactly as he should, exactly as he needs to.

And I speak as a parent as well.

- Sheryl


----------



## shesulsa (Sep 1, 2004)

Yu Sul Man said:
			
		

> I am glad that there are people who are in the MA who are open minded as the person I was refering to is a very good friend of 12 years. Frankly I dont care what his preference is after all he is my best friend and the god parent of my kids. I took the negative approach to be the devil's advocate.  I would like to say what a great group of people are in this foreum. He doesnt teach my kids (thats my job haha) but when he teaches the kids at the dojang I know his heart is only on the best interest of the children.
> With warmest regards
> John


 Am Ja again?  Methinks not.  Honesty, huh?  Riiiiiight....Sir.


----------



## Sarah (Sep 1, 2004)

I dont see what the big deal is with being Gay???  It just does not seem to be a big deal here in New Zealand.




I beleive that if you have a real problem with someone, then maybe you need to look within and see why it is such a problem.


(Good to see you were only testing the group!!!)


----------



## hardheadjarhead (Sep 1, 2004)

Sarah said:
			
		

> I dont see what the big deal is with being Gay???  It just does not seem to be a big deal here in New Zealand.




We're still trying to catch up with the rest of Western culture, Sarah.  We had a little bit of a religious backlash at the turn of the 19th-20th centuries.  Slowed things down a bit.  We're working on it.


Regards,


Steve


----------



## Yu Sul Man (Sep 1, 2004)

I wasnt testing I was wondering if people felt like I did. Your in New Zealand my Grandmaster lives there Lao SHi Yek Sing Ong (Sing Ong Tai Chi) somewhere in Aukland.  Some people might be kinda taken back by a Gay instructor (for one reason or another). Shoot, I brought him into HRD and taught him for many years I could never turn my back on my closest friend that would be soo wrong.

 Have a good nite or day in your case
  John


----------



## Sarah (Sep 1, 2004)

Good to hear you are working on it... 



Would hope we are past living in caves and smashing each other over the heads??....

  ....well maybe just the caves then!


----------



## Sarah (Sep 1, 2004)

Yu Sul Man said:
			
		

> I wasnt testing I was wondering if people felt like I did. Your in New Zealand my Grandmaster lives there Lao SHi Yek Sing Ong (Sing Ong Tai Chi) somewhere in Aukland. Some people might be kinda taken back by a Gay instructor (for one reason or another). Shoot, I brought him into HRD and taught him for many years I could never turn my back on my closest friend that would be soo wrong.
> 
> Have a good nite or day in your case
> John


I have seen his website looks good, I want to try Tai Chi down the track a bit, I think he has someone in Hamilton so will have to look him up!


----------



## Tkang_TKD (Sep 1, 2004)

Yu Sul Man said:
			
		

> I wasnt testing I was wondering if people felt like I did.


I too am glad to hear that you do not harbor ill will towards anyone being different.  

I think you'll find on this message board that just about everyone is level headed and intelligent.  If you really want to see some explosive opinions, check out the forum on here called the study.  It is politically charged to say the least, but for the most part it seems that everyone there is still respectful, and trys to at least put up an intelligent argument/counter-argument.


----------



## Yu Sul Man (Sep 1, 2004)

I am happy to be part of such a great group of people and I look forward to long indepth discussions. I think I would like to stay far away from that explosive group , life is too short. 

  Nite all off to train and then to bed.
   John


----------



## AaronLucia (Sep 2, 2004)

As for my opinion..i believe honesty is always the best policy, although its not always easy to follow.


----------



## shesulsa (Sep 2, 2004)

AaronLucia said:
			
		

> As for my opinion..i believe honesty is always the best policy, although its not always easy to follow.


 So, are you saying that if you were homosexual, you would be openly gay and would speak frankly to your class about your sexual preference?


----------



## loki09789 (Sep 2, 2004)

Yu Sul Man said:
			
		

> I am happy to be part of such a great group of people and I look forward to long indepth discussions. I think I would like to stay far away from that explosive group , life is too short.
> 
> Nite all off to train and then to bed.
> John


So...you practiced a little misdirection (read lieing) about honesty as an attempt to find out 'honest' reactions about 'honesty being the best policy'...

please excuse the observation of irony, but you sort of directed where the reactions would go with this phrasing and tone.

If I started a thread that was prompted with "So are you for the Registration/labelling and tracking of all Mid East ethnic Americans/Muslims for security purposes" I would get a very obvious reaction.

I don't really, off the top of my head, know a better way to phrase your topic to get a more 'honest' reaction but I think you sort of stacked the deck.


----------



## shesulsa (Sep 2, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> So...you practiced a little misdirection (read lieing) about honesty as an attempt to find out 'honest' reactions about 'honesty being the best policy'...
> 
> please excuse the observation of irony, but you sort of directed where the reactions would go with this phrasing and tone.


 In Hwa Rang Do, we call this "Am Ja" - it means trickery.


----------



## glad2bhere (Sep 2, 2004)

Dear Paul: 

I think you are hitting a little closer to home. YuSulMan stated very clearly that he would NOT want his young son taught by a homosexual (pg 1). That sorta takes this entire line of inquiry out of the category of "objective" and into the realm of "outing". My own personal take on the subject is that I have found Homosexuals, as a group, to be confused, easily rattled, seeking, flexible, intolerant---- in short--- pretty much the same as everybody else. There are individuals with strong traditional values, who are loyal to their partners, and intelligent contributors to their society. I have also met some real "screamers" with all the ethics of a goat in heat and no more social consciousness than a serial criminal. And before we take homosexual MA teachers to task (since we will not be discussing the numbers of professional sports people who are likewise Homosexual), may I say that I am just as careful about purported Heterosexual teachers who can be every bit as sexually violent, manipulative and injurous to their students. Lets not pretend here, Folks. There are pediphiles, sexual predators, frauds, charlatans and personality disorders sharing our MA community with us. If we are going to single out a particular group lets be ready to go all the way, right? FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## loki09789 (Sep 2, 2004)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> In Hwa Rang Do, we call this "Am Ja" - it means trickery.


I think that the only person being 'tricked' is the author because of how he set up the original post so that those who would end up supporting his real opinion would end up commenting the strongest and the most.

I use 'trickery' in my class room and play 'devil's advocate' regularly to get the kids to see things from other perspectives or to guide them to certain observations, for educational purposes of understanding and broadening a fairly ethnocentric developmental stage of life.

In this case, the technique only succeeded in rallying those who would support Yul's true ideology (which I have to say is great IMO).  I truly doubt that folks that feel the same as Yul presented in the original post are going to cheer in a forum such as this (partially because they know on some level that they are being bigotous and will get criticized for it).


----------



## TomakaStud (Sep 2, 2004)

Honesty is the best policy? I don't think this is an issue of honesty, it's not as if someone lied about it. Personally i'd look down upon anyone who felt it was their business to ask about someones sexuality without good cause (can't think of any good cause off the top of my head....but i'm sure one exists). 

On another note, my backround incorporates MA, wrestling, and jui jitsu. The only issue i would have would be in perhaps a wrestling and jui jitsu situation, i would find it mentally difficult to separate the two subjects if we were in certain positions that one gets into in the latter of the two arts. Just the way i'm built, perhaps that will change as i get older...only time will tell. I'm sure i'll be judged for my view on this subject by some and get some negativity but i have no shame in my feelings towards it. 

Another aspect i believe has been overlooked is the business aspect of the decision to come out to your students. As much as we'd like to believe that everyone is tollerant and understanding that business and pleasure can be separated, we all live in the real world (at least most of us conservatives...politcal shot? yes it was) and we know this is not the case, and such a proclamation could kill an instructors reputation and lively hood, and next thing you know, the rumors are flying!!!

I guess all this babble could be summed up by a "don't ask, don't tell" policy to a persons sexual habits. 

The other issue is as we grow in the MA we also grow closer in our personal lives to those we train with, i'd like to quote on the mat fight gear, "train hard, fight hard, party hard!" And that's what we do. We get together, drink, party and have a rip roaring time. Eventually things like this usually come out to the inner circle and at that point it's anybody's guess what will happen.

Does this person only teach Hwarangdo or do they teach grappling? I bleive if they do it would be best just to keep it to themselves. It just might make others, even though acceptable, feel uncomfortable. My 2 cents.


----------



## shesulsa (Sep 2, 2004)

Yes, Paul, I understand, and I'm not saying this doesn't have its place.  Rather, I'm giving the term we use for this method of fishing.

 I tend to be leery, however, of this approach and am wondering why it was truly necessary in this format.  I realize Yu Sul Man is new to the boards and he very well may be my senior in HRD and I will give him all the respect he is due.

 Thanks to all for the opportunity to speak my opinion.


----------



## shesulsa (Sep 2, 2004)

TomakaStud said:
			
		

> Does this person only teach Hwarangdo or do they teach grappling? I bleive if they do it would be best just to keep it to themselves. It just might make others, even though acceptable, feel uncomfortable. My 2 cents.


 HRD incorporates judo, grappling, other close-in work as well as joint manipulation and striking techniques...it is a very broad art.


----------



## TomakaStud (Sep 2, 2004)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> HRD incorporates judo, grappling, other close-in work as well as joint manipulation and striking techniques...it is a very broad art.


You're correct but the techniques and extent is truely minimal in comparrison to wrestling and jui jitsu.....that's a fact not an opinion...most of the ground fighting in hwarangdo isn't learned until the later parts or training and even then it does not go as deep and most practitioners don't take there training to the extent of a grappling school (live rolls and dedicated classes to just ground work) perhaps this is different in other schools but no doubt grappling is an extreme minority of the HRD syllablus, until you get to the higher ranks....even then it's questionable how extensive it is.


----------



## loki09789 (Sep 2, 2004)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Yes, Paul, I understand, and I'm not saying this doesn't have its place. Rather, I'm giving the term we use for this method of fishing.
> 
> I tend to be leery, however, of this approach and am wondering why it was truly necessary in this format. I realize Yu Sul Man is new to the boards and he very well may be my senior in HRD and I will give him all the respect he is due.
> 
> Thanks to all for the opportunity to speak my opinion.


Shesulsa,

Not a problem IMO.  Just commenting on the tactical application of 'trickery' in this case.  Thanks for the cultural insight regardless of my take on how it was used in this case.

Even when I don't agree with your stance, I recognize that your positions are well intentioned and based on thought and not just knee jerk or 'just because' motivations.  Hope it didn't come off as antagonistic towards you.


----------



## shesulsa (Sep 2, 2004)

TomakaStud said:
			
		

> You're correct but the techniques and extent is truely minimal in comparrison to wrestling and jui jitsu.....that's a fact not an opinion...most of the ground fighting in hwarangdo isn't learned until the later parts or training and even then it does not go as deep and most practitioners don't take there training to the extent of a grappling school (live rolls and dedicated classes to just ground work) perhaps this is different in other schools but no doubt grappling is an extreme minority of the HRD syllablus, until you get to the higher ranks....even then it's questionable how extensive it is.


 This really depends on the teacher.  Some teachers have supplemented their HRD syllabus with other art influences, thus those of use who study in this fashion learn more that the strictest HRD syllabus - we are taught to stretch our abilities beyond the syllabus, which is demanding enough in itself.


----------



## Yu Sul Man (Sep 2, 2004)

Afternoon all

I did not mean to trick anyone it wasnt my intention.It would seem that peoples sexual preference is becoming more accepted in the main stream but in the martial art culture has it ? I can't really tell. Stand up is ok , grappling is not ok I just dont know. Geez.... I have known Instructor X for 12 years and trust him soo much but If I didnt know the person would I be able to send my kids or myself to them????
    I don't think I could......(it took me 25 minutes to write this far) 
        John
And what would I do if my  Instructor finally came out after many years of training with him and looking up to him like a father , just out of the blue..???
 I don't like this thread anymore it is hurting to write this. I question "If I knew in the begining would I hurt this much?


----------



## TomakaStud (Sep 3, 2004)

I wasn't stating stand up was ok and grappling was not. I was simply stating what would effect me personally. It's truely a question of "to each his own".


----------



## Bob D. (Sep 3, 2004)

Tom, check your PM.       Bob


----------



## Ceicei (Sep 3, 2004)

Yu Sul Man said:
			
		

> And what would I do if my Instructor finally came out after many years of training with him and looking up to him like a father , just out of the blue..???
> I don't like this thread anymore it is hurting to write this. I question "If I knew in the begining would I hurt this much?"


Maybe that is something you need to consider right now even if the situation hasn't happened yet. Take a step back, a deep breath, consider your thoughts, values, and think about what is important to you. Only you can deal with this in your own way because all of us have different backgrounds and views.  It is ok to wonder about how others think and feel; remember that we are a diverse lot and are subject to our own opinions.

I would hope, however, that as you think about the "what if" of this situation, you would consider carefully, not just your views, but the view of that instructor, and how this will impact not just you, but his school. Bottom line is to consider his *track record*. If he has taught so well all along and has had no trouble with the law, and isn't doing anything criminal, _his teaching history and his character should stand for itself._ If it had caused you no problems or concern in the past, why should it now?

- Ceicei


----------



## shesulsa (Sep 3, 2004)

I'm a woman and when I grapple with guys, I'm not thinking about a potentially sexual situation.  I don't know what the guys are thinking about, but since I'm pretty new to grappling, I'm thinking about whether or not I'm giving him an opening, is this bait or an opening, what will my next chain of moves be, can I think that far ahead, etc.

 How would this situation differ other than the fact that you have knowledge you don't really need to have, but do?

 I think what you're facing are your fears...stepping outside of your comfort zone...going beyond what you know.  Isn't this part of the challenge we face when we grow?

 Your friend is a person - first and foremost.  Second, he is a martial artist.  As Ceicei pointed out, if he is not engaged in criminal activity, then you really, really need to just "fuggetabowtit."

 I know heterosexual people who I don't want teaching my children...I'm sure there are homosexual people I wouldn't want teaching my children - but is has nothing to do with their preference.

  Peace.


----------



## TomakaStud (Sep 3, 2004)

"How would this situation differ other than the fact that you have knowledge you don't really need to have, but do?"

i'm not trying to be intollerant whatsoever. Being all tangled up, hot and sweaty with someone who might be looking at me as a possible date (obviously i'm talking about a male opponent)....would make me a bit uncomfortable....i'm saying it's me, not everyone else. Ever heard the phrase knowlege is a burden???? Or what you don't know won't hurt you??? I'd just prefer not to know...

"I'm a woman and when I grapple with guys, I'm not thinking about a potentially sexual situation"

I suppose that's where men and women are different!
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 ...(just kidding, i hope there's still room for some humor in here...)

By stating it would bother ME does not mean he isn't a tallented or skilled grappler. I suppose there are SOME women out there who might feel the same way as i do when rolling with a guy. Obviously YOU don't but others might..... And what if you were rolling with a lesbian? Would you feel uncomfortable? You may not, others would.

"I think what you're facing are your fears...stepping outside of your comfort zone...going beyond what you know. Isn't this part of the challenge we face when we grow?"

Please doctor, don't psycho analyze my sexuality or fears.....My exteme attraction to women and not to men lets me know homosexuality isn't for me without stepping into that box....i don't need to experience it to hold an open mind....I don't want to be like the liberals out there who are so open minded their brains fell out.....If your gay, great good for you, my uncle is gay, we can hang out, we can be friends, you can have his phone number but excuse me if i don't want to rub pelvis'........


----------



## MichiganTKD (Sep 3, 2004)

There are some things an Instructor, whatever his rank, is under NO obligation to inform his students about:

1. Sexual orientation
2. Religious preference
3. Voting record
4. Income level

Last time I checked, homosexuality was not a crime. And anybody who would pull their students or themselves out of a class because the Instructor was gay or appeared so needs to grow up.
I've known my Instructor for over 20 years. I can pretty safely say he is not gay. As far as the other three, I honestly don't know. He has never discussed them with us and we never asked. He never asks us about those topics either. Too much mutual respect.


----------



## Ceicei (Sep 3, 2004)

TomakaStud said:
			
		

> ...If your gay, great good for you, my uncle is gay, we can hang out, we can be friends, you can have his phone number but excuse me if i don't want to rub pelvis'........




Let me ask you a question.  Do you believe homosexual peeople are so preoccupied with thinking about sex?  FYI, most homosexuals aren't going to be thinking sex any more than a heterosexual person would.  They are generally people who lead regular lives focused with making a living through their jobs.

- Ceicei


----------



## SenseiBear (Sep 3, 2004)

Yu Sul Man said:
			
		

> I personally dont want my young son to be taught by a person that is homosexual. It is my choice. But the instructor is not giving people that chocice if he is not up front with it
> 
> It is none of my business of their sexual  preference but I have the right to know who is involved in my life and my kids life. I think all parents out there would agree.



there are 4 pages of responses, so I'm sure this has already been said.  

Your issue is that you are homophobic.  You might think you aren't, because you "get along with them fine" but you are.  Gay men and women aren't out "turning" anyones kids gay.  They won't catch it like a disease.  Most pedophiles are straight men.  Even the ones that rape and molest little boys.

Some people consider alcohol evil.  Do you make sure to tell students/parents if you drink in your spare time?  Some consider sodomy (which includes all oral sex) evil and perverse.  Should all instructors notify parents and students if they have engaged in oral sex?

If this instructors sexuality had any bearing on his ability to teach, you might have a right to complain.  but it doesn't.  Not even children.  More danger taking them to church.

SB


----------



## SenseiBear (Sep 3, 2004)

Ceicei said:
			
		

> Let me ask you a question.  Do you believe homosexual peeople are so preoccupied with thinking about sex?  FYI, most homosexuals aren't going to be thinking sex any more than a heterosexual person would.  They are generally people who lead regular lives focused with making a living through their jobs.
> 
> - Ceicei



I would say this is a case of transference.  Tomka, when rolling with a woman, DOES think about sexual issues.  He therefore assumes that a gay man will do the same thing, and has an illogical reaction.

(maybe based on the fear that the gay man might act on it?  perhaps because he wants to act on his feelings?)

(since he asked not to have his fears psycho-analyzed, I felt it needed to be done...)

(wink-wink, nudge-nudge, say no more.)


----------



## shesulsa (Sep 4, 2004)

TomakaStud said:
			
		

> i'm not trying to be intollerant whatsoever. Being all tangled up, hot and sweaty with someone who might be looking at me as a possible date (obviously i'm talking about a male opponent)....would make me a bit uncomfortable....


 I'm sure there are few gay men who are looking at you as a potential date - or even one-night stand. 



			
				TomakaStud said:
			
		

> I'd just prefer not to know...


  I'm sure that's the way they prefer it too.



			
				TomakaStud said:
			
		

> And what if you were rolling with a lesbian? Would you feel uncomfortable?


 Done it. Nope, I didn't. She didn't find me attractive in the least.



			
				TomakaStud said:
			
		

> Please doctor, don't psycho analyze my sexuality or fears.....My exteme attraction to women and not to men lets me know homosexuality isn't for me without stepping into that box....


 1. Are you insinuating that I suggest you try a homosexual experience? I'm not - I was addressing Yu Sul Man, but I find your response titillating. I was speaking of being afraid of grappelling with a gay man. Who knows? Perhaps you already have.

 2. I am not trying to insult anyone or name call here, please don't do that to me. We really can have an intelligent conversation about this without getting overheated.



			
				TomakaStud said:
			
		

> ....I don't want to be like the liberals out there who are so open minded their brains fell out.....


 There are so many things wrong with this statement, I don't know where to begin, but let's just leave it as being :-offtopic




			
				TomakaStud said:
			
		

> If your gay, great good for you, my uncle is gay, we can hang out, we can be friends, you can have his phone number but excuse me if i don't want to rub pelvis'........


 Your statements belie that you believe all gays, regardless of station or relationship to you want to "rub pelvises" with you. This is a very egotistical position, don't you think? I'm not trying to be condescending or insulting, but...really? What if I thought all lesbians wanted to rub pelvises with me? Isn't that a little self-serving and ... assuming?

   Really, now.


----------



## glad2bhere (Sep 4, 2004)

This may, or may not be the same thing--- but we are talking about self-disclosure. 

If a student has the desire to learn a martial art in order to be a better terrorist, need that person share this with his teachers? For instance, suppose a person enrolls in a Hapkido school so as to learn close quarters fighting that would help him comandeer an airline with greater success. Is he expected to disclose his motives before taking the classes? Is the teacher required to help this student grow after the manner that student selects? Is the teacher required to turn the student in IF that student discloses such motives? Thoughts?  Comments? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## shesulsa (Sep 5, 2004)

Although I see that your post is about disclosure, I really don't think terrorism and homosexuality are comparible.  However, I think everything is up to an instructor to find out.  Surely teaching a known terrorist is irresponsible.  Is teaching a homosexual irresponsible?

There's disclosure and then there's disclosure.


----------



## Tkang_TKD (Sep 5, 2004)

TomakaStud said:
			
		

> Please doctor, don't psycho analyze my sexuality or fears.....My exteme attraction to women and not to men lets me know homosexuality isn't for me without stepping into that box....i don't need to experience it to hold an open mind....I don't want to be like the liberals out there who are so open minded their brains fell out.....If your gay, great good for you, my uncle is gay, we can hang out, we can be friends, you can have his phone number but excuse me if i don't want to rub pelvis'........


Why is a liberal viewpoint considered to be so deviant?  Also, isn't it a bit arrogant to assume that someone gay would want to "rub pelvis' " with you?

Incidentally, I'm totally straight (not that it matters), and I've never even considered the idea that the person engaged in combat (sport or otherwise) might think of me as a sexual toy.  Maybe I'm just more concerned with whether or not they're gonna lay a hurtin on my


----------



## MichiganTKD (Sep 5, 2004)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Although I see that your post is about disclosure, I really don't think terrorism and homosexuality are comparible. However, I think everything is up to an instructor to find out. Surely teaching a known terrorist is irresponsible. Is teaching a homosexual irresponsible?
> 
> There's disclosure and then there's disclosure.


I tend to think teaching a homosexual self defense would be beneficial, for him anyway. Homosexuals tend to be targeted more and looked down upon more in our society. It seems to me it would make sense for them to know martial arts. And since I tend to sympathize with the underdog, it wouldn't bother me to teach TKD to a known homosexual. Assuming he wants to learn for self defense as opposed to revenge.


----------



## shesulsa (Sep 6, 2004)

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> I tend to think teaching a homosexual self defense would be beneficial, for him anyway. Homosexuals tend to be targeted more and looked down upon more in our society. It seems to me it would make sense for them to know martial arts. And since I tend to sympathize with the underdog, it wouldn't bother me to teach TKD to a known homosexual. Assuming he wants to learn for self defense as opposed to revenge.


Agreed.  Here is another faction of society that is often bashed if out, open or even suspected.  Watch out, though - these potential victims just want to rub pelvises with everyone else their same gender!


----------



## TomakaStud (Sep 7, 2004)

Well i almost fell out of my chair laughing, reading the responses to my post...very entertaining from where i sit let me tell you! 

But i do appreciate the comments. Most of my statements were on very general basis, i do believe every case is different.

Shesulsa i was certainly not trying to get heated at all or pose any kind of confrontation with you i appologize if it came out that way, as a brother in hwarangdo and student of KJN's accept my appology. But as to respond to your questions and statements, i happen to think i'm a rather attractive man and not to state that all gays would want to rub pelvises with me, but a good percent would...everyone wants a peice of the tommeister!!! (anyone good with movie quotes?) Perhaps you would consider it egotistial, i would call it confident...Perhaps i have rolled with a gay man and don't know it...that's the point i don't need to know, don't want to know and it doesn't bother me a bit that i may have and don't know. As for you rolling with a lesbian...how do you know you weren't her type? What if you knew you were her type going into it would it make you uncomfortable?

SenseiBear you crack me up!!! Do i know you? As a matter of fact i have never been entangled with a female in a combat situation and don't know how i'd react or what my mind would do, i suppose at the time my mind would be in a strictly combative place but if she were attractive i may have an idea or two in my head to the contrary after the fact... show me a guy out there who claims differently and i'll show you a homosexual! Which brings us back to topic!

Ceicei i presume that most homosexual men think about sex as much as any other average male does.....and we all know how much time that takes out of our day.....


----------



## shesulsa (Sep 8, 2004)

TomakaStud said:
			
		

> Shesulsa i was certainly not trying to get heated at all or pose any kind of confrontation with you i appologize if it came out that way, as a brother in hwarangdo and student of KJN's accept my appology.


 No problemo.



			
				TomakaStud said:
			
		

> But as to respond to your questions and statements, i happen to think i'm a rather attractive man and not to state that all gays would want to rub pelvises with me, but a good percent would...everyone wants a peice of the tommeister!!!


 With all due respect, sir...:barf:



			
				TomakaStud said:
			
		

> Perhaps i have rolled with a gay man and don't know it...that's the point i don't need to know, don't want to know and it doesn't bother me a bit that i may have and don't know.


 Riiiiiiiiiiiiight.



			
				TomakaStud said:
			
		

> As for you rolling with a lesbian...how do you know you weren't her type? What if you knew you were her type going into it would it make you uncomfortable?


 She flat out told me I wasn't her type ( I suppose this was supposed to make me feel better - dunno...should I be hurt by that??)  And if I was her type, no, I wouldn't feel uncomfortable - that would just make it more fun! :EG:



			
				TomakaStud said:
			
		

> Ceicei i presume that most homosexual men think about sex as much as any other average male does.....and we all know how much time that takes out of our day.....


 No, they just think about it as often as any other average woman does...which is actually quite a lot, thank you very much.

 Farang


----------



## shesulsa (Sep 8, 2004)

Tom - I re-read my last post and it sounds a little short or curt.  Please know that is not my intention.  It's late, i'm tired and have way too much to do!

 Peace, brother.


----------



## TomakaStud (Sep 8, 2004)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Tom - I re-read my last post and it sounds a little short or curt. Please know that is not my intention. It's late, i'm tired and have way too much to do!
> 
> Peace, brother.


No worries!


----------



## skaterlac (Sep 8, 2004)

I think you guys and gals must have lots of fun practicing all your hip throws ... gotta get your hips and pelvis right in line with the opponents... closer... yeah .... then throw.  Sir... I need to practice that again... hahahaha


----------



## shesulsa (Sep 8, 2004)

We need to have a smiley on the list that has head in hands, shaking the head back and forth.  HE HEE HEEEE.


----------



## Feisty Mouse (Sep 8, 2004)

> i happen to think i'm a rather attractive man and not to state that all gays would want to rub pelvises with me, but a good percent would...everyone wants a peice of the tommeister!!! (anyone good with movie quotes?) Perhaps you would consider it egotistial, i would call it confident...


 Just remember everyone's tastes vary.  Confidence is fine, but you'll still get some women who would prefer the guy next to you.


----------



## TomakaStud (Sep 8, 2004)

Feisty Mouse said:
			
		

> Just remember everyone's tastes vary. Confidence is fine, but you'll still get some women who would prefer the guy next to you.


Blasphemy!!!!! Hold your tongue!!!


----------



## hardheadjarhead (Sep 8, 2004)

TomakaStud said:
			
		

> But as to respond to your questions and statements, i happen to think i'm a rather attractive man and not to state that all gays would want to rub pelvises with me, but a good percent would...everyone wants a peice of the tommeister!!!




Well, I'm straight.  Yet I...I find myself attracted to your writing in a way I've never felt before.  Something..._something_ in the way you use the ellipsis.  Your use of a triple exclamation mark in stating your confidence...yet there is a cummings-esque understated modesty in your use of the lower case "i".   

As I type this I find myself flushed...breathless.  I check your personal profile and find it frustratingly devoid of information.  As I sit biting my nails, I ponder whether I should PM you to see if you're amenable to a furtive liaison, a backstair intimacy wherein we could rub pelvises while pretending to do judo.

Groaning in frustration I contemplate suicide.  My wife walks in the room.  I frantically minimize the window lest she see your writing and fall prey to your charms.

If I can't have you, no one will. 


Regards,


Steve


----------



## Sarah (Sep 8, 2004)

hardheadjarhead said:
			
		

> Well, I'm straight. Yet I...I find myself attracted to your writing in a way I've never felt before. Something..._something_ in the way you use the ellipsis. Your use of a triple exclamation mark in stating your confidence...yet there is a cummings-esque understated modesty in your use of the lower case "i".
> 
> As I type this I find myself flushed...breathless. I check your personal profile and find it frustratingly devoid of information. As I sit biting my nails, I ponder whether I should PM you to see if you're amenable to a furtive liaison, a backstair intimacy wherein we could rub pelvises while pretending to do judo.
> 
> ...


 http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001 

 http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001


----------



## TomakaStud (Sep 8, 2004)

HILLARITY ENSUES!!!! HAHAHAHAHHA!!!!

Yes i don't capitalize my i's (intentionaly might i add), my spelling is lets say less than grade school level but i used to do alot of IMing and that is probably the cause, none the less Steve i feel your energy in the cyber world we now are entangled in... (those were for you) now lets grapple!


Love, 

Tom... (again for you)

P.S. suicide is not necessary, there's plenty of the tommeister to go around!


----------



## shesulsa (Sep 8, 2004)

TomakaStud said:
			
		

> HILLARITY ENSUES!!!! HAHAHAHAHHA!!!!
> ...
> 
> P.S. suicide is not necessary, there's plenty of the tommeister to go around!


 We could take care of that, you know.


----------



## TomakaStud (Sep 8, 2004)

hardheadjarhead said:
			
		

> Well, I'm straight. Yet I...I find myself attracted to your writing in a way I've never felt before. Something..._something_ in the way you use the ellipsis. Your use of a triple exclamation mark in stating your confidence...yet there is a cummings-esque understated modesty in your use of the lower case "i".
> 
> As I type this I find myself flushed...breathless. I check your personal profile and find it frustratingly devoid of information. As I sit biting my nails, I ponder whether I should PM you to see if you're amenable to a furtive liaison, a backstair intimacy wherein we could rub pelvises while pretending to do judo.
> 
> ...


Sorry to dissapoint, it's not the first time i've heard that


----------



## TomakaStud (Sep 8, 2004)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> We could take care of that, you know.


I'm intrigued...do go on...


----------



## shesulsa (Sep 9, 2004)

I simply meant that since there's enough of you to go around, we could all just :ninja:divvy you up.  Then we can each have our own little piece of the Tomsheister...woops - I mean, Tommeister  :samurai:


----------



## Feisty Mouse (Sep 9, 2004)

> We could take care of that, you know.


 :roflmao: 
:roflmao:


----------

