# How Fast Bruce Lee Progressed In The Martial Arts



## PhotonGuy

Its common knowledge that Bruce Lee is the founder of JKD. Before creating JKD Bruce Lee had trained in multiple styles most notably Wing Chun but there are stories about many of the other styles he trained in. There was one case where he made a deal with an instructor. This particular instructor taught some style of kung fu although Im not sure exactly what kind. Anyway, Bruce Lee, aside from training in the martial arts, also was really good in cha cha dancing. He made a deal with this instructor that in exchange for some lessons in the kung fu that he taught, Bruce would teach him cha cha. According to the instructor it would take the average person about three months to learn the basics of his kung fu. It took Bruce Lee three days to master the basics. So much for his cha cha lessons, the instructor said, three days was just enough for him to get down the basic rhythm.


Anyway the point is if you're phenomenal like Bruce Lee you can reach certain levels much faster than the average person. No, martial arts can't be rushed, if by rushing you're skipping over certain stuff, but it is possible to learn it faster depending on how much you put into it. Bruce Lee would disagree with people who say you can't progress faster.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Found something on how to spot an urban legend.

- Consider what form the information took when it was passed along to you. Was it a narrative — that is, a story told as a sequence of linked events with a beginning, middle and end? Did it feature a surprising twist and/or end with a "punch line" that sounded like a joke, or the plot of a television show? If so, it may have been an urban legend. Proceed with skepticism.

Yup.

- Most often, urban legends walk a fine line between outlandishness and believability. Does the story you heard seem a little suspect, yet kind of believable? Was it told to you _as if_ it's true? Often the teller of an urban legend will even begin with the statement, "This is a true story." When someone feels they need to affirm the accuracy of what they're about to say beforehand, pay close attention. They may not fully believe what they themselves are saying.

Right along that line, and told as if it's true.

-Watch for statements such as "This really happened to a friend of a friend," or "I heard this from the wife of a co-worker," or "You won't believe what happened to my brother's housekeeper's son," etc. Urban legends are almost always about things that happened to someone _other_ than the teller -- indeed, someone the teller doesn't even know firsthand.

Pretty sure you don't know Bruce Lee.

-Have you heard the same story more than once from different sources, possibly even with different names and details? Stories tend to change and grow over time as they're told and retold by different people. If there's more than one version, it might be an urban legend.

First google search (and the only one 5 minutes of google-fu found pn the story) told me the average person would learn it in 3 weeks, not 3 months. so there's a difference.

-Does the story seem too good to be true, or too horrible or too funny to be true? If so, there's a good chance you've got an urban legend on your hands.

Yup. Too good to be true.

-They forgot one: is there a benefit to this story, beyond spreading truthfulness?

Yup. It helps glamorize Bruce Lee, and spread popularity of JKD and Lee-ites.



Based on the above, I'm going to go out on a limb and say this story may not be entirely accurate.


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## Deleted member 39746

I don't believe he really did much "proper" fighting.  The story of bruce lee is pretty much grossly over exaggerated.  

He was kind of the most popular kind of mix your martial arts person of the time in a time where it wasn't that common or mainstream.       But i think it was done before him and some less than notable people may have forwarded that kind of ideology.  

Its kind of like celebrity status to glamorize/popularize something which wasnt normal/popular.


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## Headhunter

Yep that's the word....stories..a bunch of big tales made to make him look amazing and some world beater despite him never actually being tested in combat


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## Gweilo

I heard this story back in the 80's, and seem to remember it was 3 weeks, if you can imagine an Aikidoist going to learn Hapkido, lots of the locks and throws are almost identical, as they come from the same place, just a different philosophical approach, so a student as above should pick up the techniques very quickly.

@Headhunter although there are no professional records of Lee fighting, there are recorded interviews with other martial artists, who actually did fight him. There is an interview with Sammo Hung where he claims during the filming of enter the Dragon, lots of the extras that where bought in from the locality started talking about how Lee was not as good as Lee thought he was, so Sammo being young, and who had a lot of fights being a local naughty boy, became difficult with Lee during the filming of a scene (playing to the crowd of extras), which ended with Lee asking Sammo if he wanted to fight, which Sammo excepted. In Sammo Hung words, they squared up, Lee asked if he was ready, Sammo nodded. Sammo remembers the hit from a kick to the face, which he did not see, just felt his face swell, and the blood run from his mouth, to which Sammo replied you win.
I cannot remember the exact dvd this interview was on, but it was in no way to promote Lee, not on a Hung film.


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## Buka

I've trained with under some Martial Artists that had the opportunity to have trained with Lee. I had some long discussions about their remembrances of him. They all said he was damn good, something special. Not like average good, but really damn good.

These are people who are not star struck, are Martial notables in their own right, guys like Ed Parker, Joe Lewis, Wally Jay and on and on. They said "wow" when they talked about his abilities. Wally Jay's wife, Bernice, a Martial Artists herself, showed me a photo of Wally and Bruce that she kept in her wallet. She told me that they had a gym in their basement for when Wally had visiting Martial Artists over, which was all the time I guess. They would go down stairs and train. "Except", she said, "When young Bruce would come over. They'd push the couch over to the side and train right there in the living room and wreck my house."

The photo showed Wally and Bruce, drenched in sweat, sheet eating grins on their face, the living room a total shambles, overturned chairs, rugs bunched in the corner, lamps on their sides on the floor. She said she had seen every Martial Artist Wally ever trained with. She said she never saw anyone move like Bruce Lee. I'll remember that photo for as long as I live.

So I dunno'. I'm going to go with the guys who taught me, guys who actually trained with Lee and who I accept at their word.


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## Gweilo

Wally Jay... Legend.


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## Danny T

Buka said:


> I've trained with under some Martial Artists that had the opportunity to have trained with Lee. I had some long discussions about their remembrances of him. They all said he was damn good, something special. Not like average good, but really damn good.
> 
> These are people who are not star struck, are Martial notables in their own right, guys like Ed Parker, Joe Lewis, Wally Jay and on and on. They said "wow" when they talked about his abilities. Wally Jay's wife, Bernice, a Martial Artists herself, showed me a photo of Wally and Bruce that she kept in her wallet. She told me that they had a gym in their basement for when Wally had visiting Martial Artists over, which was all the time I guess. They would go down stairs and train. "Except", she said, "When young Bruce would come over. They'd push the couch over to the side and train right there in the living room and wreck my house."
> 
> The photo showed Wally and Bruce, drenched in sweat, sheet eating grins on their face, the living room a total shambles, overturned chairs, rugs bunched in the corner, lamps on their sides on the floor. She said she had seen every Martial Artist Wally ever trained with. She said she never saw anyone move like Bruce Lee. I'll remember that photo for as long as I live.
> 
> So I dunno'. I'm going to go with the guys who taught me, guys who actually trained with Lee and who I accept at their word.




Yeah…I never had the opportunity to meet much less train with Bruce but like you Buka I have trained with several who have…These are people who are rather outstanding martial art fighters themselves and they were all highly impressed by not just his training but his actual skills and we weren’t talking about his acting or movie making skills. Oh and they weren't fellow students or students of his.

Amazingly quick, powerful, very fight intelligent; were the kind of words used to describe their experiences with him.


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## PhotonGuy

The story about Bruce Lee mastering the basics in a style in three days was in a biographical video about Bruce Lee that I used to have. Anyway, whether the truth has been stretched with that story or whether there is even any truth to the story the fact remains that Bruce Lee was phenomenal in the way he trained. He would be doing drills with the wooden dummy and his friends would go out for pizza, they would come back and he would still be doing the drills and he would say something along the lines of, "Im almost done, then Im switching hands." So Bruce Lee did take far less time overall to get to the levels in the martial arts that he got to, then the average person.


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## jobo

PhotonGuy said:


> The story about Bruce Lee mastering the basics in a style in three days was in a biographical video about Bruce Lee that I used to have. Anyway, whether the truth has been stretched with that story or whether there is even any truth to the story the fact remains that Bruce Lee was phenomenal in the way he trained. He would be doing drills with the wooden dummy and his friends would go out for pizza, they would come back and he would still be doing the drills and he would say something along the lines of, "Im almost done, then Im switching hands." So Bruce Lee did take far less time overall to get to the levels in the martial arts that he got to, then the average person.


it seems reasonsblvto one that someone all ready trained in ma and weityh good motors skills could learn the " basics of another ma in three days  provided they were full days say 30 hours , someone with exceptional mirror skills in considerably less time


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## PhotonGuy

jobo said:


> it seems reasonsblvto one that someone all ready trained in ma and weityh good motors skills could learn the " basics of another ma in three days  provided they were full days say 30 hours , someone with exceptional mirror skills in considerably less time



Well yes. In actuality you don't learn anything "in less time" 30 hours is 30 hours any way you look at it, but that 30 hours can be spread over two days, three days, five days, a week, two weeks, ect. 

So if it takes you 30 hours to develop a certain level of skill and its your goal to reach that level of skill, you can get there sooner if you spread it out less. If you train five hours a day you will get there in six days. If you train one hour a day you will get there in thirty days. Certainly if you train five hours a day you will get there sooner than if you train one hour a day.

But the fact remains, in both cases you trained for a total of 30 hours.


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## Flying Crane

PhotonGuy said:


> Well yes. In actuality you don't learn anything "in less time" 30 hours is 30 hours any way you look at it, but that 30 hours can be spread over two days, three days, five days, a week, two weeks, ect.
> 
> So if it takes you 30 hours to develop a certain level of skill and its your goal to reach that level of skill, you can get there sooner if you spread it out less. If you train five hours a day you will get there in six days. If you train one hour a day you will get there in thirty days. Certainly if you train five hours a day you will get there sooner than if you train one hour a day.
> 
> But the fact remains, in both cases you trained for a total of 30 hours.


Whether or not you can quantify something and say that it takes X number of hours to learn something is a discussion of its own.

However.  How you spread your thirty hours does matter.  If you pile it on all at once, then mental and physical fatigue eventually sets in and those hours are not all of high quality.  Likewise, if you spread it out over too much time, it also is not so high quality.

I suggest that 30 hours spread over ten or twelve days is probably more effective than 30 hours spread over two days, or thirty hours spread over a year.


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## Martial D

In the pre MMA Kung Fu is magic days people pretty much believed Bruce Lee was an unstoppable God that can beat anyone.

There is still a bit of holdover from those days, even though we know better now.


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## Headhunter

Martial D said:


> In the pre MMA Kung Fu is magic days people pretty much believed Bruce Lee was an unstoppable God that can beat anyone.
> 
> There is still a bit of holdover from those days, even though we know better now.


We still get it now with ip man. People believe because of the donnie yen movies that he was some amazing fighter. But really ip man was just a martial art teacher who smoked opium his whole life


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## punisher73

I will try and find the exact information, but if my memory is correct, Bruce Lee traded Cha-Cha lessons to a kung fu master to learn some of that styles forms.  Wing Chun forms are not very dramatic and Bruce wanted something that looked better on camera, it had nothing to do with actually learning the style or its basics.  Bruce exchanged A LOT of information with a lot of different people, and most agreed that he was very physically talented and could pick up movements very quickly.

It was the same reason that Bruce Lee went and studied Hapkido for it's kicks, he wanted something "cool" for the cameras when he played Kato on Green Hornet.  It had nothing to do with martial arts knowledge, but illustrates that he was very physically gifted and learned quickly.


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## Headhunter

punisher73 said:


> I will try and find the exact information, but if my memory is correct, Bruce Lee traded Cha-Cha lessons to a kung fu master to learn some of that styles forms.  Wing Chun forms are not very dramatic and Bruce wanted something that looked better on camera, it had nothing to do with actually learning the style or its basics.  Bruce exchanged A LOT of information with a lot of different people, and most agreed that he was very physically talented and could pick up movements very quickly.
> 
> It was the same reason that Bruce Lee went and studied Hapkido for it's kicks, he wanted something "cool" for the cameras when he played Kato on Green Hornet.  It had nothing to do with martial arts knowledge, but illustrates that he was very physically gifted and learned quickly.


Yep that what I heard he didn't know enough wing chun so he needed some flashy stuff to teach to look good.

That was his main reason for working with guys like Chuck Norris, Joe Lewis etc, so he could spar and train with high level guys and pick up stuff from them.

From what I've read his teaching for him was more about training himself and I know people who knew him and they've said he actually wasn't that great a teacher. He could be rude and dismissive and if you didn't pick something up straight away he'd just move on and never cover it again and her impatient and angry with his students


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## PhotonGuy

Flying Crane said:


> Whether or not you can quantify something and say that it takes X number of hours to learn something is a discussion of its own.
> 
> However.  How you spread your thirty hours does matter.  If you pile it on all at once, then mental and physical fatigue eventually sets in and those hours are not all of high quality.  Likewise, if you spread it out over too much time, it also is not so high quality.
> 
> I suggest that 30 hours spread over ten or twelve days is probably more effective than 30 hours spread over two days, or thirty hours spread over a year.


Well yes to say how much time it would take to learn something would depend on all sorts of other factors and as you said, its a discussion of its own.

Anyway, regarding how you spread the 30 hours, piling it on all at once, training for 30 hours straight, would probably not be a smart thing to do, you would most likely burn yourself out and/or hurt yourself and in doing so you would be unable to keep on training so in the long run it would set you back. Heck, Im not sure if even Bruce Lee would advocate training 30 hours straight.

Spreading it out too much, for instance spreading it over a year as you put it, will obviously take you much longer  and as you said, it would not be high quality.

But, if you were to train as much as you can given various factors such as your own fitness and endurance levels, your recovery time, your passion for what you're learning, your time schedule, ect. it stands to reason you will reach an x level of skill sooner than if you were to spread it out more.


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## PhotonGuy

Headhunter said:


> From what I've read his teaching for him was more about training himself and I know people who knew him and they've said he actually wasn't that great a teacher. He could be rude and dismissive and if you didn't pick something up straight away he'd just move on and never cover it again and her impatient and angry with his students


But I thought patience was a very important virtue in the martial arts. Surely, if anybody were to set an example of how a martial arts practitioner should be it would be Bruce Lee.


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## Gerry Seymour

PhotonGuy said:


> Well yes. In actuality you don't learn anything "in less time" 30 hours is 30 hours any way you look at it, but that 30 hours can be spread over two days, three days, five days, a week, two weeks, ect.
> 
> So if it takes you 30 hours to develop a certain level of skill and its your goal to reach that level of skill, you can get there sooner if you spread it out less. If you train five hours a day you will get there in six days. If you train one hour a day you will get there in thirty days. Certainly if you train five hours a day you will get there sooner than if you train one hour a day.
> 
> But the fact remains, in both cases you trained for a total of 30 hours.


There is some evidence that 30 hours isn't just 30 hours, though. In learning, the mind needs time to process, so in most cases 30 hours in 2 days is actually inferior to 30 hours in 2 weeks (which is probably inferior to 30 hours in 1 week).


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## Headhunter

PhotonGuy said:


> But I thought patience was a very important virtue in the martial arts. Surely, if anybody were to set an example of how a martial arts practitioner should be it would be Bruce Lee.


Yeah that's a load of rubbish. Martial artists are human beings as was Bruce Lee. No one is perfect everyone has their faults, Bruce Lee was an arrogant hot head, he left Hong Kong because he was getting in daily gang fights. He broke one of his students jaw by going after them hard when they landed a hit on him in sparring. He was not this zen master that people make him out to be. Not saying he was a bad guy but he had his faults like everyone else and the word arrogance always surrounds him


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## PhotonGuy

gpseymour said:


> There is some evidence that 30 hours isn't just 30 hours, though. In learning, the mind needs time to process, so in most cases 30 hours in 2 days is actually inferior to 30 hours in 2 weeks (which is probably inferior to 30 hours in 1 week).


As I said, there are all sorts of factors. For instance, lets say you train five hours a day for six days, that would be a total of 30 hours. Depending on the art that might or might not be a problem. For an art such as Tai Chi which is not all that physically taxing on the body, there are lots of people who probably could pull off five hours a day. Intensive training in an art such as Muai Thai, on the other hand, five hours a day for six days you could very easily hurt yourself or at least you would experience diminishing returns. As I said, there are all sorts of factors.


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## Flying Crane

PhotonGuy said:


> As I said, there are all sorts of factors. For instance, lets say you train five hours a day for six days, that would be a total of 30 hours. Depending on the art that might or might not be a problem. For an art such as Tai Chi which is not all that physically taxing on the body, there are lots of people who probably could pull off five hours a day. Intensive training in an art such as Muai Thai, on the other hand, five hours a day for six days you could very easily hurt yourself or at least you would experience diminishing returns. As I said, there are all sorts of factors.


It isn’t just physical.  Your brain needs down-time to process the learning and the new material.  Even if you could physically handle 30 hours in a row, it would be less effective than spreading it out over several days in 2 hour per day increments.   Because the down time for the brain is important in processing and making sense of what you have learned.  Sleep is integral in this, you need the work spread over time, with sleep and rest intervals in between.


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## PhotonGuy

Flying Crane said:


> It isn’t just physical.  Your brain needs down-time to process the learning and the new material.  Even if you could physically handle 30 hours in a row, it would be less effective than spreading it out over several days in 2 hour per day increments.   Because the down time for the brain is important in processing and making sense of what you have learned.  Sleep is integral in this, you need the work spread over time, with sleep and rest intervals in between.


Try telling that to my uncle who got both a PhD and an MD at the same time. He was not into martial arts but when he was in graduate school he would study maybe 8 hours a day. All he did was eat, sleep, study, maybe take an hour or two on some days to go running since he was a runner, and take the occasional 15 minute break at the video game arcade.


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## Headhunter

Flying Crane said:


> It isn’t just physical.  Your brain needs down-time to process the learning and the new material.  Even if you could physically handle 30 hours in a row, it would be less effective than spreading it out over several days in 2 hour per day increments.   Because the down time for the brain is important in processing and making sense of what you have learned.  Sleep is integral in this, you need the work spread over time, with sleep and rest intervals in between.


Yep there's a reason Lee died so young. Either over training or drugs (or a mix of both) for those who don't know Lees autopsy showed drugs in his system


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## Flying Crane

PhotonGuy said:


> Try telling that to my uncle who got both a PhD and an MD at the same time. He was not into martial arts but when he was in graduate school he would study maybe 8 hours a day. All he did was eat, sleep, study, maybe take an hour or two on some days to go running since he was a runner, and take the occasional 15 minute break at the video game arcade.


what was the second thing you said he did?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

PhotonGuy said:


> Try telling that to my uncle who got both a PhD and an MD at the same time. He was not into martial arts but when he was in graduate school he would study maybe 8 hours a day. All he did was eat, sleep, study, maybe take an hour or two on some days to go running since he was a runner, and take the occasional 15 minute break at the video game arcade.


On top of him sleeping, there is a difference between purely intellectual stuff, and learning physical skills


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## PhotonGuy

Flying Crane said:


> what was the second thing you said he did?


Go running?


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## Flying Crane

PhotonGuy said:


> Go running?


Sleep.


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## PhotonGuy

Flying Crane said:


> Sleep.


Yeah, so, everybody has to sleep, your point?


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## Flying Crane

PhotonGuy said:


> Yeah, so, everybody has to sleep, your point?


My point is, he broke up his marathon studies with sleep and other necessary activities.  So he partook in the all-important rest and recovery and downtime that the brain needs, when learning and processing new information.  

Earning an MD and a PhD at the same time is a massive task.  People work very hard to do it.  They may operate on less sleep than is optimal.  But they cannot just disregard the sleep and the down time necessary when learning.

Your earlier post when you mentioned your uncle gave me the impression that you were claiming he didn’t need that rest and down time.  Yet he slept...


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## PhotonGuy

Flying Crane said:


> My point is, he broke up his marathon studies with sleep and other necessary activities.  So he partook in the all-important rest and recovery and downtime that the brain needs, when learning and processing new information.
> 
> Earning an MD and a PhD at the same time is a massive task.  People work very hard to do it.  They may operate on less sleep than is optimal.  But they cannot just disregard the sleep and the down time necessary when learning.
> 
> Your earlier post when you mentioned your uncle gave me the impression that you were claiming he didn’t need that rest and down time.  Yet he slept...


Well everybody needs sleep to function properly, whether or not you train or study when you're awake the fact remains we all need sleep. How much sleep? Maybe 6 to 8 hours in a 24 hour time period depending on various factors but that is a topic of another discussion.

I could not imagine anybody training in any art, even a soft art that is less physically demanding such as Tai Chi, for 30 hours straight, at least not on a regular basis. However, a person might be able to train 15 hours a day for two days in Tai Chi, that would be a total of 30 hours within a 48 hour time period and would give enough time to get adequate sleep. Could a person train intensely for 15 hours a day for two days in a much more physically demanding art such as Muai Thai? Probably not unless they wanted to kill or seriously hurt themselves.


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## Brian R. VanCise

I think we all have to look at the stories surrounding Bruce Lee with skepticism.  Just like we would any other person.  We also need to take into account what someone telling the story gains as well by having trained with Bruce Lee.  Was he good?  Was he great?  Was he just okay?  All we know is he was a good actor at the time for what he did because people went out and watched his movies and he made some money doing it.  I will give him *a lot of credit* because a lot of people got interested in the martial arts because of him and his movies.


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## Gweilo

I found this on the net, not sure if you have seen this video, thought I would post it here, as there are thoughts about Lee's abilities in a modern world.
Edit sorry I thought it was computer generated.


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## Gerry Seymour

PhotonGuy said:


> Try telling that to my uncle who got both a PhD and an MD at the same time. He was not into martial arts but when he was in graduate school he would study maybe 8 hours a day. All he did was eat, sleep, study, maybe take an hour or two on some days to go running since he was a runner, and take the occasional 15 minute break at the video game arcade.


Actually, you've listed a few things he did that allowed his brain time away from the studying. Take those out, and he's probably less effective (especially if you reduce the sleep too much). He worked hard and made it happen. Likely it would have taken less total effort to get the same result over a slightly longer period of time, but that's kind of the point of what you posted.


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## PhotonGuy

gpseymour said:


> Likely it would have taken less total effort to get the same result over a slightly longer period of time, but that's kind of the point of what you posted.


Exactly. That was my point all along. 

I don't look for shortcuts to excellence as there's no such thing, what I look for are faster ways to achieve excellence. There's a difference. Shortcuts are *easier *ways to achieve excellence. I don't look for easier ways to reach excellence since if you try to do that you're only cheating yourself and you do not reach excellence. But that's not to say that you can't achieve excellence faster if you work harder. So when you achieve excellence faster its actually harder not easier, that's the tradeoff.


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## PhotonGuy

Headhunter said:


> Yeah that's a load of rubbish. Martial artists are human beings as was Bruce Lee. No one is perfect everyone has their faults, Bruce Lee was an arrogant hot head, he left Hong Kong because he was getting in daily gang fights. He broke one of his students jaw by going after them hard when they landed a hit on him in sparring. He was not this zen master that people make him out to be. Not saying he was a bad guy but he had his faults like everyone else and the word arrogance always surrounds him


I would say that Bruce Lee was more egotistical as opposed to downright arrogant. The difference is that Bruce Lee really was phenomenal in the martial arts, his achievements in the martial arts were real. A purely arrogant person would be somebody who would claim that they could be great in the martial arts, that they could reach phenomenal levels, when they had never done it. 

And yes, Bruce Lee wasn't perfect, he had faults and weaknesses like everybody else. Now, was Bruce Lee patient? In some ways perhaps but Im not sure everybody in this forum or in the martial arts community would call him patient.


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## Cynik75

PhotonGuy said:


> ... his achievements in the martial arts were real...


 What achievements?


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## Gweilo

PhotonGuy said:


> A purely arrogant person



Or was he a perfectionist, who could not tolerate underachieving, but did not realise, being human, meant he could not attain perfection.


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## PhotonGuy

Cynik75 said:


> What achievements?


You are familiar with Bruce Lee, aren't you?


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## Cynik75

Yes I am. And I do not see anything can be called "achievement in martial art". No one sane person states teen brawls, beating Wong Jack Man, some friendly sparrings or even killing Han and Oharra  are achievements in martial arts. No fight record (low,- semi-, full-, whatevercontact), no fight record of his apprentices. 
Good philosophy of training and fighting but nothing revolutionary ) comparing to western boxing, wrestling, judo, muai thai) with vestigial influence on martial art world and community (he popularized eastern martial arts but his own JKD is a margin of margin) - the same way Clint Eastwood popularized using Smith & Wesson M.29 but has no influence on training, shooting methods etc. 

P.S. sorry for mistakes - I am not english native speaker


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## Gweilo

Cynik75 said:


> And I do not see anything can be called "achievement in martial art".



I disagree with this statement, he achieved the right to teach the Gweilo or who ever wanted to learn, when his so say statesman forbid it, he achieved world wide fame in the movie industry, he also made most of the western world take stock, of their beliefs about "Orientals". He also made an art form, and a way of training, that has evolved into modern day arts, and the blending of different arts, an acheivment in my book, no, he was not the 1st, but Imo,  the loudest advocate of evolution in our arts. There is no fight records with the IFAA, or any other fight organisations,  so to state that Bruce Lee acheived nothing, or nothing in the martial arts, is more to do with your opinion, and your opinion of modern day martial arts.


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## Cynik75

Gweilo said:


> ...he achieved the right to teach the Gweilo or who ever wanted to learn, when his so say statesman forbid it,


Every one teenager does something forbidden. I am not impressed with "achivement". And 3 years old kid can teach somenthing 2 years old kid. Is it great achievement?


Gweilo said:


> he achieved world wide fame in the movie industry


Being a famous actor of kungfu movies doesn't mean being good martial artis - MIchael Dudikoff played American Ninja without any martial arts skills


Gweilo said:


> he also made most of the western world take stock, of their beliefs about "Orientals"


 it is sociological /social achievement, not the martial arts one.


Gweilo said:


> He also made an art form, and a way of training, that has evolved into modern day arts, and the blending of different arts, an acheivment in my book, no, he was not the 1st, but Imo,  the loudest advocate of evolution in our arts.


 His influence was marginal. Full contact sport existed long before Bruce and did not need any revolution. Non contact martial arts (so called traditional martial arts) has not change in any way because of Bruce. Present change in part of TMA  was forced by huge number of losses in fight against full contact sports adepts. JKD was a niche and is a niche. 

He popularized eastern martial arts (espiecially "kung fu") but it was not what he wanted. He wanted to create and popularize usefull martial art with modern training methodology (what was his first mistake because this methology was already in boxing, wrestling, judo etc) but he popuilarized only fancy moves from movies and gave to the common thinking the wrong vison of fighting (full of high jumps, roundhouse kicks, kiai screams etc)


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## Gweilo

Cynik75 said:


> but he popuilarized only fancy moves from movies and gave to the common thinking the wrong vison of fighting (full of high jumps, roundhouse kicks, kiai screams etc)



I think you would call this artistic liscece of the film makers, and the other points you make are nit picking,  yes the highly coreographed sequences were stylised, but there needed to be quality to pull it off, and I am amazed your knowledge is better than prominent martial artists of the day. Even though Lee was trying to evolve what they knew.


----------



## Gweilo

Watch the film


----------



## Gweilo

This is important, I would like to hear cyniks reply.


----------



## Gweilo

I have run out of time, travelling tomorrow night for a trekking session in Borneo, so I will cut to the chase, @Cynik75  yes the video is a fake, but ask yourself this, why would martial artists want to fake someone who has not acheived anything?, my point being, if Lee had not acheived anything in Martial arts, there would be no value in copying, or association with him.
I collect 18th and early 19th century porcelain tea ware, there are many fake and counterfeit items out there for sale, why, because there is monetary value in association with influential or original things. You may feel there was no acheivments in martial arts by Lee, but the pure amount of copiests would suggest otherwise, otherwise what's the point.


----------



## Cynik75

Gweilo said:


> ... why would martial artists want to fake someone who has not acheived anything?, my point being, if Lee had not acheived anything in Martial arts, there would be no value in copying, or association with him.


He is famous movie star. And people like to copy, parody etc. famous people. Thats all.

Can you please seriously explain me what was Bruce's influence on traing methodology or fighting tacticts, strategies, techniques. How many full contact sport fighters (or their coaches) has changed what they were/are doing because of Bruce? Has karatekas changed their methods? Or judokas? Or boxers? Or kung fu guys? Aikidoka? Jujiteiros? Sambists?
So maybe some real street combat badasses has changed something in their routine? Was Krav Mage created because Imi Lichtenfeld watched "Enter of the dragon"? Or maybe the footage of Bruce's one inch punch is the main training aid of police units in all of the world?

Exept small pack of JKD guys nobody has changed anything. But even JKD guys:
1) use sport methodology not invited by Bruce and draw knowledge from other sources (Inosanto lineage) from other masters
or
2) are complete denial of Bruce philosophy (Ted Wong lineage)

Show me please real influence of Bruce on the way contemporary people train and fight.

Or who did he defeated? Or who defeated whom using only Bruce's methods?
There are two types of achivements in martial arts:
1) you win fights (against decent opponent of course)
2) your followers/students win fights
The achievement in popularization of subject is not the achievement in this subject.


----------



## Buka

In all due respect, Bruce Lee died before some of you were born. I was already training. He influenced a lot of us.


----------



## Cynik75

Buka said:


> In all due respect, Bruce Lee died before some of you were born.


So did Jack the Ripper. What is the point in this statement?



Buka said:


> . He influenced a lot of us.


Show me the example answering my questions. Bruce Lee inspired many people to start training martial arts but IT IS NOT ACHIEVEMENT IN MARTIAL ART. 
Hugh Laurie probably inspired many people to became doctor. Does it mean he has achievements in medicine?

In all due respect but I prefer something other than cliche.


----------



## Buka

Cynik75 said:


> So did Jack the Ripper. What is the point in this statement?
> 
> 
> Show me the example answering my questions. Bruce Lee inspired many people to start training martial arts but IT IS NOT ACHIEVEMENT IN MARTIAL ART.
> Hugh Laurie probably inspired many people to became doctor. Does it mean he has achievements in medicine?
> 
> In all due respect but I prefer something other than cliche.



I look at the letter capitalization as shouting. So relax.


----------



## Headhunter

Cynik75 said:


> He is famous movie star. And people like to copy, parody etc. famous people. Thats all.
> 
> Can you please seriously explain me what was Bruce's influence on traing methodology or fighting tacticts, strategies, techniques. How many full contact sport fighters (or their coaches) has changed what they were/are doing because of Bruce? Has karatekas changed their methods? Or judokas? Or boxers? Or kung fu guys? Aikidoka? Jujiteiros? Sambists?
> So maybe some real street combat badasses has changed something in their routine? Was Krav Mage created because Imi Lichtenfeld watched "Enter of the dragon"? Or maybe the footage of Bruce's one inch punch is the main training aid of police units in all of the world?
> 
> Exept small pack of JKD guys nobody has changed anything. But even JKD guys:
> 1) use sport methodology not invited by Bruce and draw knowledge from other sources (Inosanto lineage) from other masters
> or
> 2) are complete denial of Bruce philosophy (Ted Wong lineage)
> 
> Show me please real influence of Bruce on the way contemporary people train and fight.
> 
> Or who did he defeated? Or who defeated whom using only Bruce's methods?
> There are two types of achivements in martial arts:
> 1) you win fights (against decent opponent of course)
> 2) your followers/students win fights
> The achievement in popularization of subject is not the achievement in this subject.


Have to agree. Now I like Bruce Lee I enjoy his films and obviously he was skilled and fast and sharp and knowledgeable but he's also very overrated because people think he can actually beat 100 men at once or he'd beat any heavyweight Mma fighter on earth which is nonsense.

Yeah Bruce Lee inspired people no doubt about it. But everything he did it was for his own gains. He didn't care about inspiring others or sharing his culture he wanted to make cash.

He started teaching because he was broke, he didn't teach for free out of love for martial arts like some instructors do. He did because he needed cash.

He developed his own style not to advance martial arts but because he realised his own training wasn't as good as he thought it was.

He did his fitness stuff to get himself stronger.

He taught celebrities for the money.

He didn't make movies to promote martial arts he did it for money.

He didn't train with world champs to spread Kung fu he did it to advance his own training and get to work out with the best guys in the country.


I'm not hating on him for this. He did it all for his money and his fame and his training and fair enough to him. Respect for that.

But let's not pretend he was doing it to help others and promote the Chinese community. He loved martial arts and he used them to make money. Good on him and I respect him for that. But calling him a hero or a revolutionist or the best fighter who ever lived...nonsense in my opinion. 


The guy was a skilled practitioner in great shape who looked good on camera and made some decent movies and that's great. But he is not a fighter he never had a recorded real fight so we can see how good he really is. Yes there's all these tall tales about street fights but there's no evidence apart from his wife and his mates word that these happened.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Cynik75 said:


> There are two types of achivements in martial arts:
> 1) you win fights (against decent opponent of course)
> 2) your followers/students win fights
> The achievement in popularization of subject is not the achievement in this subject.


There is much more to martial arts than winning fights or having students that win fights.
If that's what you think are the only types of achievements in the martial arts than your view of the martial arts is very shallow. Its a view very common among beginners, those with little to no experience in the marital arts.


----------



## Cynik75

PhotonGuy said:


> There is much more to martial arts than winning fights or having students that win fights.If that's what you think are the only types of achievements in the martial arts than your view of the martial arts is very shallow. Its a view very common among beginners, those with little to no experience in the marital arts


The only thing which distinguish martial arts from other human activities is the fighting. The "much more to martial arts" (like personal and social development, being in shape, learning to be modest, patient etc) is not uniqe to martial arts. Dancing can give you the same personal benefits besides fighting skills. Martial artist differs from other people because he can fight.
And there is nothing more in martial arts than fighting. Of course the other benefits are valuable but the only achievement in martial arts is kicking asses.
Being famous star of kung-fu movies is not achievement in martial arts - it is  cinematography achievement. Martial arts can be a usefull tool to achieve succes in movie. Thats all.
Being in shape is not a martial art achievement - its health achievement. Martial arts can be a usefull tool to getting shape. That all.  (For example: I am 43 years old jujiteiro/submission wrestler. I am in better shape than 98% of my contemporaries. Does it mean I have achievement in martial arts?)
etc, etc


Still waiting for examples of Bruce's influence on the way modern people fight.



.


----------



## Buka

Cynik75 said:


> So did Jack the Ripper. What is the point in this statement?
> 
> 
> Show me the example answering my questions. Bruce Lee inspired many people to start training martial arts but IT IS NOT ACHIEVEMENT IN MARTIAL ART.
> Hugh Laurie probably inspired many people to became doctor. Does it mean he has achievements in medicine?
> 
> In all due respect but I prefer something other than cliche.





Cynik75 said:


> The only thing which distinguish martial arts from other human activities is the fighting. The "much more to martial arts" (like personal and social development, being in shape, learning to be modest, patient etc) is not uniqe to martial arts. Dancing can give you the same personal benefits besides fighting skills. Martial artist differs from other people because he can fight.
> And there is nothing more in martial arts than fighting. Of course the other benefits are valuable but the only achievement in martial arts is kicking asses.
> Being famous star of kung-fu movies is not achievement in martial arts - it is  cinematography achievement. Martial arts can be a usefull tool to achieve succes in movie. Thats all.
> Being in shape is not a martial art achievement - its health achievement. Martial arts can be a usefull tool to getting shape. That all.  (For example: I am 43 years old jujiteiro/submission wrestler. I am in better shape than 98% of my contemporaries. Does it mean I have achievement in martial arts?)
> etc, etc
> 
> 
> Still waiting for examples of Bruce's influence on the way modern people fight.
> 
> 
> 
> .



My apologies, I thought you were waiting for me to explain how Bruce Lee influenced me, as well as some of my teachers. I didn't realize you just wanted to rant. But, that's okay I guess. So here...


----------



## Cynik75

Sorry. I am not native english speaker and it is not easy to explain my point of view in short way. Lack of suitable words.
I want to explain why I do not see any "achievements in martial arts" in Bruce biography. Hope I have clarified it to everyone one who reads this topics.

Still waiting for examples of Bruce's achievements or influences. Words and phrazes like "huge", "big", "we all know", "a lot", "nobody can doubt" has zero value and without specifics mean "blah, blah, blah he had achievement because I say so".


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Cynik75 said:


> The only thing which distinguish martial arts from other human activities is the fighting. The "much more to martial arts" (like personal and social development, being in shape, learning to be modest, patient etc) is not uniqe to martial arts. Dancing can give you the same personal benefits besides fighting skills. Martial artist differs from other people because he can fight.
> And there is nothing more in martial arts than fighting. Of course the other benefits are valuable but the only achievement in martial arts is kicking asses.
> Being famous star of kung-fu movies is not achievement in martial arts - it is  cinematography achievement. Martial arts can be a usefull tool to achieve succes in movie. Thats all.
> Being in shape is not a martial art achievement - its health achievement. Martial arts can be a usefull tool to getting shape. That all.  (For example: I am 43 years old jujiteiro/submission wrestler. I am in better shape than 98% of my contemporaries. Does it mean I have achievement in martial arts?)
> etc, etc
> 
> 
> Still waiting for examples of Bruce's influence on the way modern people fight.
> 
> 
> 
> .


You’re assuming everyone in MA shares your goals. Some do not. There are styles that actually say the philosophical elements are more important, and that’s why some folks choose those styles. 

For many of us, fighting skill is only part of our motivation.


----------



## Cynik75

With all due respect, please do not change the subject. Of course very few people train martial arts just for fighting - people train for fun, socialization, for being fit etc. 
But this is not an answer for question "what were Bruce's achievements in martial arts". He achieved more in cha-cha than in MA.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Cynik75 said:


> With all due respect, please do not change the subject. Of course very few people train martial arts just for fighting - people train for fun, socialization, for being fit etc.
> But this is not an answer for question "what were Bruce's achievements in martial arts". He achieved more in cha-cha than in MA.


It's not really changing the subject when a major part of one of your posts is really saying that MA is only about fighting.


----------



## Flying Crane

I do not believe that Bruce opened the door to teaching non-Asians.  I believe that was already happening in many places.

Also, there is not agreement over the issue of who won the match between Bruce and Wong Jack Man.


----------



## mrt2

Gweilo said:


> Watch the film


Sorry, but this is fake.  Not rendering an opinion about the rest of this thread, as I am still thinking about it, but Bruce Lee never played ping pong with Nunchacku.
FACT CHECK: Did Bruce Lee Play Ping-Pong with Nunchaku?


----------



## mrt2

Gweilo said:


> I have run out of time, travelling tomorrow night for a trekking session in Borneo, so I will cut to the chase, @Cynik75  yes the video is a fake, but ask yourself this, why would martial artists want to fake someone who has not acheived anything?, *my point being, if Lee had not acheived anything in Martial arts, there would be no value in copying, or association with him.*
> I collect 18th and early 19th century porcelain tea ware, there are many fake and counterfeit items out there for sale, why, because there is monetary value in association with influential or original things. You may feel there was no acheivments in martial arts by Lee, but the pure amount of copiests would suggest otherwise, otherwise what's the point.


An interesting way to spin something.  The answer is, because Bruce Lee was an icon and superstar.  But that does not really answer the question posed by OP.


----------



## JR 137

Forget all the hype, hoopla, and everything else associated with Bruce Lee for a second. Why do I think he was a legit fighter? Far too many people who trained with him who were no doubt legit said he was as solid a MAist as they come. Guys like Chuck Norris, Bill Wallace, Joe Lewis just to name a few. If those guys say someone’s legit, I certainly take their word for it.

Who he influenced and what impact he had on MA is all subject to debate. The guys I listed’s word isn’t IMO.

As to why Lee never competed, only one person can truly answer that question. And he hasn’t been available for comment since July 20, 1973.


----------



## Starjumper7

JR 137 said:


> As to why Lee never competed, only one person can truly answer that question.



Well, more than one actually.  I learned more or less the same stuff Bruce did, from the same 'family'.

Bruce was trained to end a fight in one second in a deadly manner,  the origins of his art comes from a group of Chinese assassins.  It is extremely effective.

There are several reasons that adepts in the deadliest of arts do not compete.  As follows:

In competition the players are protected by rules, if most of the effective stuff you know is against the rules then you can't play your game, you have to play the Lumbering Lumox game, where you just stand there and trade punches.

In MMA the players are required to face each other with aggression.  In the assassin's arts you either really try to get away, or you pretend to try to get away, this is an extremely important point.  There are many tricks which can not be used in the ring.

By break rules I mean things like blinding, + elbow, neck, and back breaking.  The rules favor big giant Lumoxes with so many muscles you can't even break their neck, the only chance you would have is to use eye jabs, against the rules.

So, in a 'real' serious art you pretend that you want to get away, act cowardly and groveling, put your hands together prayer fashion (boxer's stance) and beg them to not hit you.  If they attack you anyway, in spite of all that, they are telling you they want to die, and in fact it is perfectly legal to kill someone in that situation in the US, as long as you have spectators.  There are also certain tricks to use on the audience to make them think that someone attacked you while you were trying to back away, then they slipped and fell down dead. Helps if it goes to court, plus when you blind someone they can't identify you in a police lineup.

Bruce Lee could do all that, absolutely no question, that was actually the foundation of his art.  But ending a fight in one second while barely moving does not play well in the movies.


----------



## Headhunter

Starjumper7 said:


> Well, more than one actually.  I learned more or less the same stuff Bruce did, from the same 'family'.
> 
> Bruce was trained to end a fight in one second in a deadly manner,  the origins of his art comes from a group of Chinese assassins.  It is extremely effective.
> 
> There are several reasons that adepts in the deadliest of arts do not compete.  As follows:
> 
> In competition the players are protected by rules, if most of the effective stuff you know is against the rules then you can't play your game, you have to play the Lumbering Lumox game, where you just stand there and trade punches.
> 
> In MMA the players are required to face each other with aggression.  In the assassin's arts you either really try to get away, or you pretend to try to get away, this is an extremely important point.  There are many tricks which can not be used in the ring.
> 
> By break rules I mean things like blinding, + elbow, neck, and back breaking.  The rules favor big giant Lumoxes with so many muscles you can't even break their neck, the only chance you would have is to use eye jabs, against the rules.
> 
> So, in a 'real' serious art you pretend that you want to get away, act cowardly and groveling, put your hands together prayer fashion (boxer's stance) and beg them to not hit you.  If they attack you anyway, in spite of all that, they are telling you they want to die, and in fact it is perfectly legal to kill someone in that situation in the US, as long as you have spectators.  There are also certain tricks to use on the audience to make them think that someone attacked you while you were trying to back away, then they slipped and fell down dead. Helps if it goes to court, plus when you blind someone they can't identify you in a police lineup.
> 
> Bruce Lee could do all that, absolutely no question, that was actually the foundation of his art.  But ending a fight in one second while barely moving does not play well in the movies.


Bruce Lee had a short amount of time learning wing chun. He didn't even learn the full system so he didn't have a load "secret assassin" training. End a fight in seconds? Then how come his only known fight against Wong Jack man was meant to have taken 3 minutes and that's even the ones who are on lees side of the story who say that.

Bruce lees base training was a little bit of wing chun and some stuff he picked up off his mates. Mostly he was interested in boxing a western style not a ninja assassin art.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Starjumper7 said:


> Well, more than one actually.  I learned more or less the same stuff Bruce did, from the same 'family'.
> 
> Bruce was trained to end a fight in one second in a deadly manner,  the origins of his art comes from a group of Chinese assassins.  It is extremely effective.
> 
> There are several reasons that adepts in the deadliest of arts do not compete.  As follows:
> 
> In competition the players are protected by rules, if most of the effective stuff you know is against the rules then you can't play your game, you have to play the Lumbering Lumox game, where you just stand there and trade punches.
> 
> In MMA the players are required to face each other with aggression.  In the assassin's arts you either really try to get away, or you pretend to try to get away, this is an extremely important point.  There are many tricks which can not be used in the ring.
> 
> By break rules I mean things like blinding, + elbow, neck, and back breaking.  The rules favor big giant Lumoxes with so many muscles you can't even break their neck, the only chance you would have is to use eye jabs, against the rules.
> 
> So, in a 'real' serious art you pretend that you want to get away, act cowardly and groveling, put your hands together prayer fashion (boxer's stance) and beg them to not hit you.  If they attack you anyway, in spite of all that, they are telling you they want to die, and in fact it is perfectly legal to kill someone in that situation in the US, as long as you have spectators.  There are also certain tricks to use on the audience to make them think that someone attacked you while you were trying to back away, then they slipped and fell down dead. Helps if it goes to court, plus when you blind someone they can't identify you in a police lineup.
> 
> Bruce Lee could do all that, absolutely no question, that was actually the foundation of his art.  But ending a fight in one second while barely moving does not play well in the movies.


I don't really buy the premise that there are a bunch of deadly moves that can't be adapted to something that works in competition like MMA. There are moves that aren't good for that context, so are a waste of time if you're planning for that (or most other) competition, but there really isn't much available in the way of truly deadly stuff...at least that's very reliable. Most ways you can kill a person have an analog for the octagon, since most are strikes or strangles/chokes. Unless you're referring to weapons.


----------



## Starjumper7

Headhunter said:


> Bruce Lee had a short amount of time learning wing chun. He didn't even learn the full system so he didn't have a load "secret assassin" training. End a fight in seconds? Then how come his only known fight against Wong Jack man was meant to have taken 3 minutes and that's even the ones who are on lees side of the story who say that.
> 
> Bruce lees base training was a little bit of wing chun and some stuff he picked up off his mates. Mostly he was interested in boxing a western style not a ninja assassin art.



Bruce was a student of Mr. Yueng for eight years,  Mr. Yueng was a Red Boat Wing Chun master, Mr. Yueng was Bruce's main teacher.

It is true that Bruce was entranced by the idea of being able to knock people out, and he dedicated some quality time to practicing hitting hard.  Knocking people out was also a 'safe' way for Bruce to fight, safe for the other.  Bruce was challenged to many fights by stunt men in China, perhaps you haven't heard of those.


----------



## Starjumper7

gpseymour said:


> I don't really buy the premise that there are a bunch of deadly moves that can't be adapted to something that works in competition like MMA. There are moves that aren't good for that context, so are a waste of time if you're planning for that (or most other) competition, but there really isn't much available in the way of truly deadly stuff...at least that's very reliable. Most ways you can kill a person have an analog for the octagon, since most are strikes or strangles/chokes. Unless you're referring to weapons.



Well, I can understand that you're not buying it, that is the common reaction.  There are a lot of details that make the big difference, and the devil's in the details.  In a way you are right, and the important parts are in the tricks that sets up the attacker to fail.  Notice in my post above the part I said was very important point.  In addition, this is a direct statement from the master when asked why he doesn't compete:  "We don't even want them to know what we do, so that they can't develop defenses against it".

Big bad MMA fighters have come to try to punch one of my teachers and the results are invariably the same.  One second after they try to punch they are on the floor in a contorted heap, and they have NO idea how they got there.  Most of them get up and announce that it was some kind of accident or a trick, and prance out the door with their noses in the air and their dignity intact.  In fact it was a trick, it's all tricks designed to foil the natural instincts of trained fighters.

Here's a couple of other statements from the masters.  "If you don't end the fight in one second you are doing it wrong", and "Never get hit".  We may surmise the results of a contest in which one of them never gets hit = )

It is a big challenge to explain such things to people who haven't experienced it, but I accept the challenge.  I think it would be best to start a thread titled something like 'sporting arts vs deadly arts'.  Usually that starts a **** storm on most forums, but it looks like the people here are quite mature and common sensical.  Something you find in real martial artists.


----------



## Starjumper7

Here's one point.  If you knock someone out then everyone knows who the winner is.  On the other hand, frequently you can take an attacker up to the point of 'finishing' them, but not actually do the finishing move, so you stop, so then the other guy taps you and says, "see I got you".  In fact they don't know that they are already 'dead'.  In this way, even the 'dead' ones don't get it unless you show them and explain it.


----------



## Starjumper7

Oh, and to speak to the title of the opening post.  The reason that Bruce progressed so fast in the martial arts is for several reasons.  One is he was living with one of the most advanced kung fu masters anywhere, who was also a genius.  Two is he practiced very much, getting up at four in the morning and practicing for three hours on his own before getting ready to go to the University, which was in addition to his training time.  Three is that Bruce is what is called a dragon in China, a very good looking, intelligent, and talented kid, who was also very dedicated, and very motivated by his mentor, Mr. Yueng.


----------



## Headhunter

Starjumper7 said:


> Bruce was a student of Mr. Yueng for eight years,  Mr. Yueng was a Red Boat Wing Chun master, Mr. Yueng was Bruce's main teacher.
> 
> It is true that Bruce was entranced by the idea of being able to knock people out, and he dedicated some quality time to practicing hitting hard.  Knocking people out was also a 'safe' way for Bruce to fight, safe for the other.  Bruce was challenged to many fights by stunt men in China, perhaps you haven't heard of those.


I'm sorry but simply...you're wrong. Lee didn't train with anyone for 8 years he simply never had the time. None of his friends nor his wife ever mentioned him spending 8 years with anyone. He trained wing chun for a short period with ip man before he got kicked out then he moved to the states and worked as a dishwasher before starting school and teaching kids at school to make cash. I'm not calling you a liar because maybe you genuinely believe this but frankly your story doesn't add up with any of the other accounts of lees life thatve been stated by his family and his close friends at the time soooo...I know who I believe more on the  subject.

His base style was wing chun but after his fight with Wong Jack man he turned against wing chun and studied with judo guys, with boxers and karate champions he spent a period living with ed Parker and sharing ideas with him and with James Lee. He read a lot of books on combat and made his own style. Whether or not he trained with this yeung guy or not he certainly didn't train with him for 8 years as he was constantly moving around the states and later to and from Hong Kong and this guy certainly wasn't his mentor or any of that. Perhaps he trained a few weeks with him and as is often the case it's blown up into more than it was. By people trying to live off lees name. But Bruce Lee never had a formal teacher apart from ip man. He worked with loads of guys but in more of a training partner compactly than a teacher


----------



## Headhunter

Starjumper7 said:


> Here's one point.  If you knock someone out then everyone knows who the winner is.  On the other hand, frequently you can take an attacker up to the point of 'finishing' them, but not actually do the finishing move, so you stop, so then the other guy taps you and says, "see I got you".  In fact they don't know that they are already 'dead'.  In this way, even the 'dead' ones don't get it unless you show them and explain it.


Umm....what?...serjouosy not trying to be smart I genuinely haven't a clue what you're saying here


----------



## Starjumper7

Headhunter said:


> I'm sorry but simply...you're wrong. Lee didn't train with anyone for 8 years he simply never had the time. None of his friends nor his wife ever mentioned him spending 8 years with anyone. He trained wing chun for a short period with ip man before he got kicked out then he moved to the states and worked as a dishwasher before starting school and teaching kids at school to make cash. I'm not calling you a liar because maybe you genuinely believe this but frankly your story doesn't add up with any of the other accounts of lees life thatve been stated by his family and his close friends at the time soooo...I know who I believe more on the  subject.
> 
> His base style was wing chun but after his fight with Wong Jack man he turned against wing chun and studied with judo guys, with boxers and karate champions he spent a period living with ed Parker and sharing ideas with him and with James Lee. He read a lot of books on combat and made his own style. Whether or not he trained with this yeung guy or not he certainly didn't train with him for 8 years as he was constantly moving around the states and later to and from Hong Kong and this guy certainly wasn't his mentor or any of that. Perhaps he trained a few weeks with him and as is often the case it's blown up into more than it was. By people trying to live off lees name. But Bruce Lee never had a formal teacher apart from ip man. He worked with loads of guys but in more of a training partner compactly than a teacher



That's the standard story yes.  What you don't know about it could fill a book, and I wrote that book.


----------



## Headhunter

Starjumper7 said:


> That's the standard story yes.  What you don't know about it could fill a book, and I wrote that book.


So you know more about it than his family?....okay..


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Starjumper7 said:


> Well, more than one actually.  I learned more or less the same stuff Bruce did, from the same 'family'.
> 
> Bruce was trained to end a fight in one second in a deadly manner,  the origins of his art comes from a group of Chinese assassins.  It is extremely effective.
> 
> There are several reasons that adepts in the deadliest of arts do not compete.  As follows:
> 
> In competition the players are protected by rules, if most of the effective stuff you know is against the rules then you can't play your game, you have to play the Lumbering Lumox game, where you just stand there and trade punches.
> 
> In MMA the players are required to face each other with aggression.  In the assassin's arts you either really try to get away, or you pretend to try to get away, this is an extremely important point.  There are many tricks which can not be used in the ring.
> 
> By break rules I mean things like blinding, + elbow, neck, and back breaking.  The rules favor big giant Lumoxes with so many muscles you can't even break their neck, the only chance you would have is to use eye jabs, against the rules.
> 
> So, in a 'real' serious art you pretend that you want to get away, act cowardly and groveling, put your hands together prayer fashion (boxer's stance) and beg them to not hit you.  If they attack you anyway, in spite of all that, they are telling you they want to die, and in fact it is perfectly legal to kill someone in that situation in the US, as long as you have spectators.  There are also certain tricks to use on the audience to make them think that someone attacked you while you were trying to back away, then they slipped and fell down dead. Helps if it goes to court, plus when you blind someone they can't identify you in a police lineup.
> 
> Bruce Lee could do all that, absolutely no question, that was actually the foundation of his art.  But ending a fight in one second while barely moving does not play well in the movies.


I just want to make sure its clear-it is NOT legal to kill someone for trying to punch you. Don't expect that to fly in court.


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## HongKongFooey.Returns

Headhunter said:


> Bruce Lee had a short amount of time learning wing chun. He didn't even learn the full system so he didn't have a load "secret assassin" training. End a fight in seconds? Then how come his only known fight against Wong Jack man was meant to have taken 3 minutes and that's even the ones who are on lees side of the story who say that.
> 
> Bruce lees base training was a little bit of wing chun and some stuff he picked up off his mates. Mostly he was interested in boxing a western style not a ninja assassin art.



Dude it was totally true. I saw him train with the Frank Dux and Tanaka Clan to fight in the Kumite, and then as a ghost he trained a kid named Jason to fight Frank Dux after he defected to the Soviet Union.


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## Starjumper7

Headhunter said:


> So you know more about it than his family?....okay..



I AM in his family, his kung fu family, I'm one of his kung fu brothers.

He had two families, his kung fu family, and his family via marriage.  Mr. Yueng told Bruce to NOT tell others who his teacher was, do you think he may have obeyed his master?  His wife did know Mr. Yueng, by the way.  These things are also fairly well known, among the older crowd in Seattle's Chinatown, and in part of the local tai chi and wing chun communities, who Mr. Yueng was.  He was highly respected as being a very good man and much loved.  Jesse Glover, Bruce's most advanced student, knew all about Mr. Yueng.

Mr. Yueng also told me to not write about him till after he died.  The reasons for that are honorable and reasonable.  In fact I wasn't going to write about him anyway, but did because I needed some retirement income.  Otherwise it would still all be hidden.  The book really isn't so much about Bruce, it's about Mr. Yueng, who was an amazingly powerful chi kung master.

However I though some people might find it interesting that Bruce's teacher was a powerful master of a very rare kind of system called: "Taoist Spiritual Path of the Warrior", which at it's higher level is called the "Path of the Wizard".  In China it is technically correct to label a very advanced chi kung master as a wizard.

I also know how Bruce died, and it isn't quite as innocent as the general public has been led to believe.


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## Headhunter

Starjumper7 said:


> I AM in his family, his kung fu family, I'm one of his kung fu brothers.
> 
> He had two families, his kung fu family, and his family via marriage.  Mr. Yueng told Bruce to NOT tell others who his teacher was, do you think he may have obeyed his master?  His wife did know Mr. Yueng, by the way.  These things are also fairly well known, among the older crowd in Seattle's Chinatown, and in part of the local tai chi and wing chun communities, who Mr. Yueng was.  He was highly respected as being a very good man and much loved.  Jesse Glover, Bruce's most advanced student, knew all about Mr. Yueng.
> 
> Mr. Yueng also told me to not write about him till after he died.  The reasons for that are honorable and reasonable.  In fact I wasn't going to write about him anyway, but did because I needed some retirement income.  Otherwise it would still all be hidden.  The book really isn't so much about Bruce, it's about Mr. Yueng, who was an amazingly powerful chi kung master.
> 
> However I though some people might find it interesting that Bruce's teacher was a powerful master of a very rare kind of system called: "Taoist Spiritual Path of the Warrior", which at it's higher level is called the "Path of the Wizard".  In China it is technically correct to label a very advanced chi kung master as a wizard.
> 
> I also know how Bruce died, and it isn't quite as innocent as the general public has been led to believe.


No you're not. You're just not sorry. You're story is very convinent and frankly it all sounds a load of rubbish to me. You're not his brother and you're not his family and you don't know how he died. Jesse glover huh? another one who's dead so can't back up your stories. How convinent. I've met people who trained with Lee. I spent a while with Dan innosanto and he was Bruce lees top student and best friend and we discussed Lee a lot and he never mentioned this guy. So basically you're trying to make money off lies? I'm not saying anything about this yeung guy but he certainly wasn't Bruce lees teacher for 8 years. I don't know if you're making this stuff up yourself or you're just regurgitating nonsense that you've been told but it is nonsense I'd bet anything on that fact. You're little story doesn't match anything that his REAL family and REAL friends have said


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## Starjumper7

Well, whatever you do, don't research it.  Feel confident that you were there and you know it all.

There are some people who will no doubt be interested in reading more about Bruce's real roots and the little kung fu family in Seattle that he was part of.  Some people did research it and they went to the source for instruction, and they got the basics that Bruce hid when he taught JKD.  Mr. Yueng accepted very few people as kung fu students, but one or two of them turned out to be better than Bruce.


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## Headhunter

Starjumper7 said:


> Well, whatever you do, don't research it.  Feel confident that you were there and you know it all.


I wasn't there but I take the word of people who were there over some guy going around pretending to be Bruce lees brother. I have researched it not your nonsense but I've been reading stuff on Lee for years and met a number of his students and again doesn't match any of your tales


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## Starjumper7

Keep researching ...


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## Headhunter

Starjumper7 said:


> Keep researching ...


No need but keep writing fairy tales


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## jks9199

Folks,
There is a clear and direct policy here at MartialTalk about fraudbusting.  Perhaps you should review it:
*1.10.1 No forum bashing*

This means all forum bashing is not tolerated. Forum bashing is coming to MT and complaining about other forums, their rules, their moderators, their members, etc.


*1.10.2 No Art bashing.*

No one art is "the best", no one "style" is the best. All have their strengths and weaknesses. Do your research and find what best fits your ability and need.


*1.10.3 No Individual Bashing / Fraud Busting.*

It is not our mission to out and expose frauds or decide who "sucks". Such discussions rarely lead anywhere other than to headaches, and lawsuits.​
Please keep these rules in mind.


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## Headhunter

jks9199 said:


> Folks,
> There is a clear and direct policy here at MartialTalk about fraudbusting.  Perhaps you should review it:
> *1.10.1 No forum bashing*
> 
> This means all forum bashing is not tolerated. Forum bashing is coming to MT and complaining about other forums, their rules, their moderators, their members, etc.
> 
> 
> *1.10.2 No Art bashing.*
> 
> No one art is "the best", no one "style" is the best. All have their strengths and weaknesses. Do your research and find what best fits your ability and need.
> 
> 
> *1.10.3 No Individual Bashing / Fraud Busting.*
> 
> It is not our mission to out and expose frauds or decide who "sucks". Such discussions rarely lead anywhere other than to headaches, and lawsuits.​
> Please keep these rules in mind.


I apologise it has been a very rough week fir me and I have slipped into a bad depressive mood set which has affected my mood. Not an excuse just an explanation. I have sent a private message to those involved to say sorry as well. Please delete any posts of mine that have caused offence


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## Starjumper7

Thank you for the clarification!  It wasn't so bad after all, I have experienced a lot of things which the majority of people can not believe, and I would not have been able to believe either, thirty years ago, so I'm used to it = )

Have a wonderful day


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## geezer

So Yeung Sifu was Bruce’s secret teacher of a secret art which was so secret that Bruce didn’t teach it to anyone or even tell his wife, and he didn’t include it in his books and writings and movies  that are his legacy.


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## geezer

Well, it’s like the tree falling in the forest that nobody hears. Guess it didn’t make a sound.


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## geezer

BTW, by your standard, I’m family too. I’d be a nephew of Bruce Lee since my Sifu was his si-dai or younger kung-fu brother under Yip Man. Never met Bruce though- except watching his movies. So should I write a book?


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## Cynik75

Starjumper7 said:


> ...
> Bruce was trained to end a fight in one second in a deadly manner,  the origins of his art comes from a group of Chinese assassins.  It is extremely effective.
> ...
> Bruce Lee could do all that, absolutely no question, that was actually the foundation of his art.  But ending a fight in one second while barely moving does not play well in the movies.



Please give me an example of Bruce's fight ended in a second (I prefer killed opponent but only beaten is good too)


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## Flying Crane

geezer said:


> So Yeung Sifu was Bruce’s secret teacher of a secret art which was so secret that Bruce didn’t teach it to anyone or even tell his wife, and he didn’t include it in his books and writings and movies  that are his legacy.


Well sure.  It’s a secret.  You aren’t allowed to show it to anybody.  You aren’t allowed to tell anybody.  You aren’t allowed to talk about it.  You aren’t allowed to teach anybody.  Hell, you aren’t even allowed to practice it.  It must remain secret, at all costs.


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## Dirty Dog

Flying Crane said:


> Well sure.  It’s a secret.  You aren’t allowed to show it to anybody.  You aren’t allowed to tell anybody.  You aren’t allowed to talk about it.  You aren’t allowed to teach anybody.  Hell, you aren’t even allowed to practice it.  It must remain secret, at all costs.



But you can write a book about it.


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## Flying Crane

Dirty Dog said:


> But you can write a book about it.


He’s a splitter, that fellow.


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