# Fighting discouragement!



## Snapcrackler (Jun 20, 2006)

This is a post against the speels that we see on the web or otherwise, where people are pitching their wares and bewares - these folks breed discouragement about legitimate martial arts, while promoting their own homegrown "self defense" style which is typically a mixture of grappling, military basics (which is usually MA based anyway), more mixed martial arts, and some hard style fighting that they claim to be all encompassing. "Martial arts don't work on the street", they say! It seems they want to discourage Martial Artists, or wannabes, by revealing "hidden secrets" that renders your art useless (gasp!!!) and then they offer up their own concoction of defense, and try to make a buck at someone's expense. "I was beat up in school until I developed this special system!" They say. "Now I can vaporize many assailants without trying very hard! Buy these books and tapes! Lots and lots of books and tapes!" This is of course, very very wrong in many ways and also it is pretentious, arrogant and greedy. It flies right over the head of the fact that at the heart of every legitimate martial art is being aware of your surroundings, well trained, and SMART not to mention dangerous/lethal when defending yourself. 

Okay. If Joe Blow walks around on the street looking down at the ground with their hands in their pockets, with a "black belt" they got after 12 months from some mcdojo where they studied (whatever art) then they will probably find themselves getting in trouble if confronting a few foes (or even one). This is the type of "martial artist" that seems to be often portrayed in the "martial arts don't work in real life" speels and pitches, unfortunately. Here's another example of that:

Some nights, when our TSD class needs the space, we train in an elementary school gym......just happens to be in the same school I attended when I was a kid 25 years ago. Here's the story:

I remember being in 2nd grade in that -very same- gym, and as kids we all gathered in there for a demo one schoolday, from some local karate club that must have taught their students how to look nice in their uniforms and that's it, because the demo we saw had a blackbelt pit himself against "several assailants in a bar" (I was thinking in 2nd grade "what is a bar?")... anyway this black belt doing the demo could NOT break most of the boards that the "multiple assailants" (his demo team guys) were standing there holding. Yes, these were SINGLE boards he could not break. Were these guys holding them against the grain? Were they made of kryptonite? 

How did that karate demo guy get a black belt?? From Wal-Mart? Even as a 2nd grader I was embarrassed to watch this spectacle. Our TSD class today has 8 year old 9th guppers breaking 12X12X1 #3 pine with yup podos.


Since day one, my TSD instructors have stressed preparation and training for "on the street" confrontations as many good instructors do. I love this art I study. In our class, it takes about 6 years of hard work to get our dark blue belt and then of course we have just begun. If one of our trained students goes to a tournament, they will be bringing home trophies (usually a bunch of them). If one of our trained students gets grabbed by a few thugs on the street, then it's likely that they are taking those thugs down. TSD as well as other legitimate arts teaches brutal techniques as we all know. 

I have heard the stat "95% of fights go to the gound in the first 3 seconds" which I believe is an inaccurate, broad statement. A "fight" is not when an assailant knocks someone down who is unprepared. That is not a fight. If you are unprepared to defend yourself and you're attacked well then yea, you're going to probably fall down. Maybe 95% of people walking around do not know how to defend themselves? Then the stat should read "95% of people who don't defend themselves when brutally attacked fall down within 3 seconds".  

If a real fight DOES go to the ground on the street, and you happen to be still conscious (i.e. not knocked too hard over the head when someone snuck up behind you with a bat), TSD teaches us to be ready with arm/legbars, locks and strikes. We started learning how to break arms on the ground as white belts. Sure, if it goes to the ground with a TSD guy VS. a grappler it's gonna be to the grappler's advantage if the grappler is skilled and knows what they are doing. Skilled grapplers are dangerous on the ground. That's why a TSD artist needs to fight on TSD terms. Folks cannot claim a grappling-specific art is "better" which is like saying a Tank is better than a Fighter Jet. They are both powerful, but you are not going to taxi your fighter jet around, fighting the tank on the ground. On the same token, neither is the JJ grappler going to fly through the air with a spinning back kick and knock the crap out of an opponent (unless he is skilled in mixed arts.) Grapplers learn how to block, dodge and throw and grapple which is fine. If a person is studying TSD and wants to learn some JJ or additional grappling too, more power to him or her. Grappling arts and other legit arts are great. But they are not "better" or "worse" than TSD or other legit art. 

My point is that if you study TSD or other legitimate art, YES you are a lethal weapon against multiple foes if you are a warrior and train right. 
I say loudly "B.S." to the hucksters who say differently - they try to discourage people from learning anything except "their" special (hybridized, nonstandard, collect-all-of-the-videos-and-books for $500 or more system). It's just their personal collection of mixed MA and other techniques.

These "systems" are not a sculpted, ancient work of art like TSD.... which has been carefully and secretly passed down for generations over 2000 years. If a guy wants to learn 20 different systems, OK. But that guy has no right to suddenly claim that his new "system" works the best and nothing else "works". (Use my special "nose jam" where you quickly poke your finger in your attacker's nose! Buy the book for $19.95: Fighting against noses! Nothing else really helps you survive!) 

I do not want to be discouraged while I am on the road to my black belt, training hard on a 2,000 year old system that has proven itself time and time again. I salute everyone else that is training, and urge you to remain confident while doing so, whether you are studying TSD or some other legitimate system. TSD is a proven, highly effective art of self defense. Tang Soo!


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## trueaspirer (Jun 20, 2006)

Great points! I definately see what you are saying, and I've seen some of those advertisements...most of those people don't even know what they're talking about. I don't mind change, but its good to stick with what you know works.


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## matt.m (Jun 20, 2006)

Man,  I am with you.  I have seen this nonsense time and time again.  I find it quite laughable.  See these people prey on the weak minded that want a quick fix to their problem.

These same people that want a quick fix don't want to go to a school and really learn how to defend themselves etc.

Look, in my opinion a yellow belt can defend themselves.  An upper ranking belt has a plethora of ways to defend themselves.

I also agree in the aspect that I am working towards my dan in Tae Kwon Do and Hapkido and feel that they do not need to be validated because some coo coo, nut job says his video will teach you how to beat mulitple attackers.


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## pstarr (Jun 21, 2006)

Yes, I particularly love the goobers who hawk that "traditional martial arts don't work on the street!"  I wonder if these intellectual giants ever considered what traditional martial arts were designed to do in the first place?

I suspect that:
(A) Many of these people have never spent much time training in a real  
     martial art, and/or
(B) Many of them have never really been in a full-tilt boogie fight to the 
     finish.


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## Makalakumu (Jun 21, 2006)

Snapcrackler said:
			
		

> This is a post against the speels that we see on the web or otherwise, where people are pitching their wares and bewares - these folks breed discouragement about legitimate martial arts, while promoting their own homegrown "self defense" style which is typically a mixture of grappling, military basics (which is usually MA based anyway), more mixed martial arts, and some hard style fighting that they claim to be all encompassing.


 
Tang Soo Do is a commercialized system of MA, too.  It was marketed in the typical fashion and it has its limitations.  Don't be discouraged as you travel on this journey, just be honest with yourself is assessing whether or not something will work.  



> I do not want to be discouraged while I am on the road to my black belt, training hard on a 2,000 year old system that has proven itself time and time again. I salute everyone else that is training, and urge you to remain confident while doing so, whether you are studying TSD or some other legitimate system. TSD is a proven, highly effective art of self defense. Tang Soo!


 
TSD can be effective in some situations, in others, it might not be so.  I would urge you NOT to drink the Kool-Aide on this one.  Especially on that 2000 year history bit, that is nothing but revisionism.  Get your blackbelt in TSD, but then branch out and explore the different options.


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## Snapcrackler (Jun 21, 2006)

I won't drink too heavily of the Kool aid. However the WTSDA states that the lineage goes back 2000 years this is one of the things I was basing that statement on. If that's not entirely accurate that's cool. My instructor was federated and then broke away from the federation on purpose to go on his own which is something that seems to have been going on for hundreds/thousands of years anyway. So I am sure there's some inaccuracy of many small items which doesn't matter too much to me. 

Every art has it's limitations and that is a great point. Would you mind sharing with me what particular instances that TSD would not be effective vs. another art? That will help me to understand your point a little better. 

I plan on earning my dan levels after I get my black belt, which will give me an opportunity to study weapons amond other things. TSD has some great weapons hyungs. 

Like the Samurai, they learned their art as best they could without diversifying into a bunch of other systems. They were a force to be reckoned with until they became somewhat corrupt and then ultimately driven out with firepower (if the history books are accurate there). But the point is that they were extremely effective, of course not effictive against long range firepower that good apparently. =)


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## Master Jay S. Penfil (Aug 14, 2006)

Tang Soo Do is my primary system. I have been training since 1972, and am currently a 7th Dan under Grandmaster Chung Il Kim. I am also a 1st Dan in Isshinryu Karate and Hakko-Ryu Ju Jutsu. I have cross-trained in several other systems, but do not hold rank in them.

I like your attitude regarding your support of Tang Soo Do, and your ability to see through the hype of those ridiculous ads.

I have seen many of these new-fangled systems come to market. They all seem to think that they have discovered some New-Ancient Secret to make you tougher then anyone else

Let me put it to you this way; there are only so many ways that you can break bones, strike his nerve centers or place someone in a restraint. All of these techniques have been honed and trained in the traditional systems. It is true that if you want to learn joint locks, you are better off learning them from an instructor that teaches a form of Japanese Aiki Ju Jutsu then a Korean who specializes in impacting techniques (punches, strikes and kicks). The same holds true in reverse If you want to learn how to impact, dont go to the Aiki Ju Jutsu guy.

You should always determine what your goals are, and then find the best system to get you there with the highest quality of knowledge and ability. Tang Soo Do, like Shotokan, S h i t o Ryu, Tae Kwon Do, and other Karate based systems are good at a proximity that affords you the necessary distance to set up long-range attacks. Isshinryu, while being a Karate based system, works in a closer proximity and does not use the high kicking and long-range punching techniques that the other systems do. Wing Chun Gung Fu works, still closer in proximity then Isshinryu. 

In Wing Chun your opponent is generally close enough to strike him/her with your elbows and knees. Each of the systems that I have named here in this posting can be considered, good systems and have much to offer. I have trained in all of them accept for Tae Kwon Do.

I have learned important concepts principles and philosophies from each system, and can say that I would not have the depth of understanding of the martial arts that I have if I had chosen not to train in any one of them. They have all been instrumental to me.

One of my red belts had chosen to take the Krav-Mega class that was offered at our center last year for some additional exercise, and to see what all the rage was about. He was in the class for about 6 months when he decided to stop. I asked him why he stopped, and this is what he said; they show us what they want us to do to defend against different attacks. I try their defensive techniques, and then I do what I learned in Tang Soo Do. The instructor gets excited when he sees my Tang Soo Do techniques at work, as they work better in every scenario then what he is teaching. The Krav-Mega class is no longer in my center. I have been there since 1975. The old systems are tried and proven. They work just fine when taught by those of us who know what we are doing


I teach seminars all over the country, and everyone is welcome, regardless of system or organization affiliation. Contact me if you are interested in participating.


248-561-5700 (cell)
masterjayspenfil@yahoo.com

Mr. John Kendrowski (*upnorthkyosa)*is hosting a weekend of seminars with me in November. You can contact him as well.



Your thoughts


Yours in Tang Soo Do,


Master Jay S. Penfil

TANG SOO!!!


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## Zaii (Aug 14, 2006)

I agree with most of what you're saying, there are a few things I just wanted to put on the table though.



			
				Snapcrackler said:
			
		

> How did that karate demo guy get a black belt?? From Wal-Mart? Even as a 2nd grader I was embarrassed to watch this spectacle. Our TSD class today has 8 year old 9th guppers breaking 12X12X1 #3 pine with yup podos.


I don't see now and have never seen why breaking an inanimate object proves any kind of ability to handle yourself in a fight, as goes the cliche "boards don't hit back". I can't remotely speculate on what goes on where you train, but I know around here local schools pre-break their boards, and then glue them back together, so that it's quite easy for the kids to break them when they have at it. It looks good on the school, is a sell for the parents, etc etc etc.



> If one of our trained students goes to a tournament, they will be bringing home trophies (usually a bunch of them). If one of our trained students gets grabbed by a few thugs on the street, then it's likely that they are taking those thugs down.


Trophies in point based sparring really don't have much relevance to a "street" encounter, which is what you started out talking about.

As far as that second claim about "taking those thugs down" goes, how can that be verified at all, and what leads you to believe that other than your own subjective opinion of your classmates?



> Then the stat should read "95% of people who don't defend themselves when brutally attacked fall down within 3 seconds".


Agreed.



> My point is that if you study TSD or other legitimate art, YES you are a lethal weapon against multiple foes if you are a warrior and train right.


 This "multiple foes" bit people keep bringing up is actually kind of out of wack as far as I see it, and the odds of actually being a "lethal weapon" against multiple attackers is nowhere near as likely as it's made out to be.

Do you consider yourself a "warrior", and if so, what defines that?


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## stabpunch (Aug 15, 2006)

Don't tar all *Neo-martial combat artists* with the same brush because it'll get you in trouble for having offended some one. Telling them your art needs to be 2000 years old to be legitimate or effective.

Only an opinion...


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## stabpunch (Aug 16, 2006)

ok all i know about TSD is that quan chi uses it in MK deadly alliance. Far be it from me to tell you your art is b.s.

If your white belts learn to break arms are they also taught the legal ramifications of doing so? 

Sure martial arts have been around for years now, some have and some haven't changed. The sole focus of the art should be what the individual requires from it. Are you looking to achieve art, sport or combat? Sure all of the little pokey combat specialists have their quirks, most like to fight (spar). This should be the first sign that we aren't mentally sound. At the end of the day if you're confident in the art you have chosen then whatever anyone could say about it wouldn't really matter to you. 

Ok you've spent heaps of time learning the intricacies, excellent. If you've got doubts try another style. What you have learned won't be wasted. Think about your knowledge on martial arts as a cupboard storing clothes. 
For me knife defense is the tuxedo, you've got it and when the occaision arises you can wear it. My jeans and t-shirt, punches and kicks which i use at training every day. Remember we are dealing with motion instead of a set technique to deal with a set technique. 

At the end of the day i hope you enjoy what you are doing. Should you ever have to nail a bad guy i trust that your technique is brutal and beautiful, yet legal and doesn't cop a law suit for breaking someones arm in an excessive force case.

Happy hunting


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## Master Jay S. Penfil (Aug 16, 2006)

Stabpunch,
You are absolutely correct
Just because a system is new does not mean that it isnt good, or bring value to those who take part in it.

I have always said that; no Grandmaster ever came out of the womb as such


Every Grandmaster that I am aware of spent in the area of 25 to 40 years studying different systems and then established what he/she determined was the best mix, based on their individual needs, interests and goals. Some have made the statement that; 

"It takes a lifetime to learn ONE system, and that you should not waste time cross-training in other systems".

I have always seen this as a means of taking ownership of the student, and brainwashing the student into staying LOYAL to the instructor/organization (keeping all of the students expendable funds coming into their school, and not into others).


I believe that it is important to first, choose a school that offers what it is that you are looking for (sport, self-defense, family involvement on the floor, etc.), and stay there. Establish a solid foundation (Earn at least your 1st Dan) and then as you develop an understanding about what else is out there and a desire to be exposed to it, go out and study it. I am NOT saying; discontinue training with your current system/instructor in any way, shape or form. I have been training for 34 years and have black belt ranking in several system. To this day I have contact with ALL of the instructor that I have trained with, and still work with all of them in one way or another. I have respect for every one of them, and visa verse.

There are many good new fangled systems out there that are worth training in, and some of them are EXCELLENT (not all). Regardless of how good they may be, I have seen many of them that choose to make the claims that the traditional" systems are useless on the street, and that they have gotten it right, and everyone should discontinue training traditionally and join their school/organization. 

This is where I have a problem with such systems; in their advertising, and the way that they choose to put down traditional systems/schools. 

I agree that there are far too many schools of traditional system being run by instructors who started teaching long before they had a clear understanding of how their system works in street/combat situations. Some of them have not, and will never have this understanding, and they are content as they are, as it isnt their desire to grow student who are fully prepared for gorilla warfare. 

Personally, I am not one of those instructors. I have the background, and I teach both the art and the application in my school. When I teach my seminars, the street/combat applications are immediately understood by all who take part. 

The best new fangled system that I have seen in a long time is the CDT program, and I like the fact that their marketing program is designed to interact with ALL schools, traditional and non-traditional as an enhancement that truly improves the overall understanding and ability of the practitioner that trains in, and embraces its techniques and principles.

Krav-Mega has been selling franchises all over the world for many years now. They (from what I understand) bring prospective instructors to training camps that last a specific period of time (1 or 2 weeks???), and charge in the area of $11,000.00 for training and certification. While most every prospective instructor will come to the table with prior experience, there is (again, in my mind) no way that anyone of any experience level is going to master a system in a couple of weeks to a level that should allow them to call themselves a Certified Master Instructor of that system hence, you will (as in all training situations) find both good and bad examples of that given system teaching that system. 

Being Jewish, I know many individuals who have been in the Israeli Army and have trained in Krav-Mega during their enlistment. Every one of them that I have talked with have stated that the training that they received in Israel with the army is a great deal different then what they have seen here in the United States being taught by these instructors who went through the franchise program. 

Its like going to a wedding and seeing the wedding cake on the desert table before the main course is served it looks GREAT, and you cant wait to get a fork full of it into your mouth to savor the rich flavor and the (Betty Crocker) smooth consistency of the contents. Now its desert time and the cake is cut!!! You have your fork in hand you take that first mouthful, and it is also your last. The cake was like a mouth full of Styrofoam, with no flavor at all. 

This is how some instructors have left me feeling after experiencing them presenting their system. I have often found other instructors of the same art that have blown me away 

For this reason alone, it is always best to go and visit and train with an instructor before you make a determination as to his/her skill level, and if you determine that the specific instructor that you train with is not a good practitioner or instructor, understand that, you should not judge the entire system on his/her presentation there may be other instructors of that system who are excellent, and definitely worth training with.

I have only mentioned CDT and Krav-Mega here, as they are the only new fangled systems that I have had close personal experience with. You may have experience with either of these system that is different then what I have discussed here, or experience with other systems all together. If so, please take some time to post your experience here and help us all to learn more about systems that are new and exciting Which ones that you have found to be good, and those that are full of hype, but dont (in your opinion) deliver what was expected.


Your thoughts...


Yours in Tang Soo Do,

Master Jay S. Penfil


TANG SOO!!!


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