# The Great "what If..."



## rockky (Mar 19, 2007)

I'm new to the forum so perhaps this has been answered. But what if you, the kenpo practitioner, were to be taken down in a real fight.

I would ask my instructor who would answer by say that "that shouldn't happen." 

Well, way back when I was in high school, i guy got mad at me and came from behind and should be with all of his might. Since I didn't see him coming, my face ate the grass. I remember being momentarily stunned, but quickly got up to deal with him.

But in that situation, I was on the ground and he could have jumped on my back...etc... 


So what if someone takes you down in order for them to deal with you in their area of expertise.
I'm wondering about the application of Kenpo on the ground. Are we severly limited or undertrained?

Or just as important, techniques that prevent a wrestler or grappler from taking you down. I saw several clips on Youtube that were sobering and made me really think about it.

Any wise comments?


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 19, 2007)

rockky said:


> I'm new to the forum so perhaps this has been answered. But what if you, the kenpo practitioner, were to be taken down in a real fight.
> 
> I would ask my instructor who would answer by say that "that shouldn't happen."
> 
> ...


Yes train on the ground, or any other range you are not familiar with. Once you identify your opponents strong point, avoid that range.
Sean


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## Blindside (Mar 19, 2007)

rockky said:


> So what if someone takes you down in order for them to deal with you in their area of expertise.
> I'm wondering about the application of Kenpo on the ground. Are we severly limited or undertrained?
> 
> Or just as important, techniques that prevent a wrestler or grappler from taking you down. I saw several clips on Youtube that were sobering and made me really think about it.
> ...


 
I think it is fair to say that most kenpoists don't train ground-fighting enough.  And that if you subscribe to the "to feel is to believe" kenpo saying, you really should spend some time on the mat with good wrestlers or submission grapplers (BJJ, sambo, etc) to get an idea what their game is.  Having a guy who doesn't know how a wrestler shoots for a single or double leg, and then tries to teach a tech to defend it is being intellectually dishonest.  

Lamont


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Mar 19, 2007)

Blindside said:


> I think it is fair to say that most kenpoists don't train ground-fighting enough. And that if you subscribe to the "to feel is to believe" kenpo saying, you really should spend some time on the mat with good wrestlers or submission grapplers (BJJ, sambo, etc) to get an idea what their game is. *Having a guy who doesn't know how a wrestler shoots for a single or double leg, and then tries to teach a tech to defend it is being intellectually dishonest.*
> 
> Lamont


 
Ssssshhhh, you're giving away all of the secrets.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Mar 19, 2007)

rockky said:


> I'm new to the forum so perhaps this has been answered. But what if you, the kenpo practitioner, were to be taken down in a real fight.
> 
> I would ask my instructor who would answer by say that "that shouldn't happen."
> 
> ...


 
*Limited..to a degree...the degree being how "undertrained" the kenpoist is.  The trend is for people to say "Kenpo has answers to how to defend on the ground."  But they can't show any because they don't spend any time there.*

What clips do you see?


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Mar 19, 2007)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> *Limited..to a degree...the degree being how "undertrained" the kenpoist is. The trend is for people to say "Kenpo has answers to how to defend on the ground." But they can't show any because they don't spend any time there.*
> 
> What clips do you see?


 
Ayup. I'm one of those dastardly mixers who suggests you take some time to complement your kenpo training judo to learn how to fall (cuz you don't always see it coming, and sometimes even when you do, the other guy's just faster or better), and some BJJ.

As a KENPOIST, try to avoid going to ground as much as possible; I see guys LEAPING to the ground, like they can't get enough of it fast enough. As a PERSON who may find himself down there anyways, be ready to deal with it should it happen.

Predictably, you'll see the answers reflect personal biases. I'm a big fan of the floor game, and so I say "train there". Others, not so much. Take reccommendations with a grain of salt, then follow your own best instincts.

Dave


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## MJS (Mar 20, 2007)

rockky said:


> I'm new to the forum so perhaps this has been answered. But what if you, the kenpo practitioner, were to be taken down in a real fight.
> 
> I would ask my instructor who would answer by say that "that shouldn't happen."
> 
> ...


 
I have to agree with what some of the others have said, specifically James, Dave and Lamont.  As it was said, there will be a huge difference between having someone shoot in one you who really isn't that good and someone shoot is is good.  Considering I like to prepare for the worst case, I'd rather work with someone who does know how to shoot.  That way, when the untrained person attempts it, it should be much easier to deal with.  

Some are going to say its in there you just need to know how to find it.  It is true...there are grappling elements in there, but IMHO, if you really want to know the ins and outs on a higher level, you're going to have to cross train.  Some will frown upon that, and thats fine...after all, its their choice right?  For myself I cross train in BJJ.  My Arnis inst. has a strong grappling background, so I work with him and one of the Black Belts at my school trains under Roy Harris, so we get grappling from him as well.

Mike


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## KenpoGunz (Mar 23, 2007)

Lots of good advice, and I like what Blindside said about the honesty thing.

Since you have so much advice here, I'll try to provide some feedback on kenpo and my experiences with grappling.

I noticed most of the concepts and principles of ground grappling are in American Kenpo(Infinite Insights vol 5 curriculum) but not the moves themselves. For example, using a pinning check in lone kimono and using a pinning check when bridging and rolling (when mounted) both involve an important concept of pinning an opponents limb to limit its movement so that you may manipulate the opponent. 

Someone who really knows the kenpo principles should be able to develop fuctional techniques on the ground, but I kinda see this as reinventing the wheel, considering that many grappling styles effectively do this already. A lot depends your instructors training, knowledge and depth of understanding regarding what the kenpo techniques are doing. 
One problem that unfortunately, many kenpo instructors have today is looking good while blasting through techniques but come up short when applying theory to someone who isnt just standing there. This includes the ground. That comes from poor instruction regarding application.
We have two great guys on here than can give you good advice regarding this topic. They are Mr. Conatser and Mr. Chapel. I'm sure there are more but I have not been on here in a while and dont know who is available. I'll even go so far to say that I'm not such a bad source of info regarding this topic.
A cool experiment is to pick a ground position from which you must escape. Than, using ideas, concepts, principles, moves from American Kenpo create a technique designed to esacpe that position. Use only safe moves at first so that you can use it agaisnt your resisting partner. When the techniques works most of the time for most people, add the more dangerous elements to it, and than call it Rolling the Ram or something LOL The results will depend on your ability to apply the concepts. 
Something else that is cool to do is take out sparring safe moves from the techniques and apply them to your sparring. i'll get you started......
Dance of Death...Single leg takedown
Triping Arrow...Sweep
Securing the STORM... Sweep/throw similar to tripping arrow
Glancing Spear... Freeing wrist from grabs, also set up the sweep with a jab to distract     and close the distance.
Thrusting Prongs... defend the take down by semisprawling and turn the "prongs" into palms               on opponents hips (pushing away).
Striking Serpents Head.... Defend grab by eleminating the shot to the back of the head and       turning the half fist into a double hand push to the opponents       chin.
Grip of Death...for standing head lock, Turn the face claw into just pulling opponents head   back, and remember to anchor the elbow. Eliminate strikes of course. And     take them down over yor leg.
Squating Sacrafice... Use The knee bar if you find the oppontent grabing you from behind. 
Encounter with Danger... Practice your falling.
Crossing Talon... Arm bar
Spiraling Twig... Arm bar
Sleeper... Arm triangle choke, or use the rear naked as a variation. Or the Ezikeil choke.
If you get any of the arm bars, knee bars, choke etc.. locked in do them untill you get the tap so that you understand and feel them applied correctly. It doesnt hurt to train with someone in grappling though. One more thing, grappling is about timing, dont go forcing one move. Knowing when to apply something comes from practice.
Ed Parker once defined "freestyle" as the extemporaneous use of basic fundamentals. 
I'm sure he did'nt mean strikes only.
Hopefully, I have been of some help.


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## bushidomartialarts (Mar 23, 2007)

i've been a kenpo guy for a long time, and i love kenpo.  but we are weak on the ground.  before kenpo, i wrestled in middle school and high school.

the conflicts i've been in were a pretty even split between my kenpo skills and my wrestling skills.

kenpoists should definitely train from the ground.  and, as blindside pointed out, we should be familiar with the holds we train against.  how can you teach 'crashing wings' if you've never had a guy grab you from behind?


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 23, 2007)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> Ayup. I'm one of those dastardly mixers who suggests you take some time to complement your kenpo training judo to learn how to fall (cuz you don't always see it coming, and sometimes even when you do, the other guy's just faster or better), and some BJJ.
> 
> As a KENPOIST, try to avoid going to ground as much as possible; I see guys LEAPING to the ground, like they can't get enough of it fast enough. As a PERSON who may find himself down there anyways, be ready to deal with it should it happen.
> 
> ...


Tis far better to lay down before you are thrown down.
Sean


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Mar 23, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> Tis far better to lay down before you are thrown down.
> Sean


 
Yeah Lay down not JUMP down and "take the fall" as some have been showing. :cough: gripping leaves :cough, cough:


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## IWishToLearn (Mar 24, 2007)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> Yeah Lay down not JUMP down and "take the fall" as some have been showing. :cough: gripping leaves :cough, cough:




You mean I can't sutemi any more?


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Mar 24, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> Tis far better to lay down before you are thrown down.
> Sean


 
Having had a wicked counter-throw game before arthritis kicked in, I don't agree. If he's got you, you've got him, and as much velocity as he applies to you can be put right back on him. 

Latch on, plane out, and twist...then listen for the sounds of crunching bone. Might be yours, but more likely to be his.

Additionally, I think it's a great argument for kenpoists learning judo as part of the complete package. A palm-heel take-down is a poor excuse for a wicked osoto-goshi or osoto-guruma, and in between the stand up game and the ground game is a whole other game with potential for wrecking bad guys' days; people-tossing.

Why only throw a fist or a foot at the guy, when you can throw a planet at him?

Regards,

Dave


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Mar 24, 2007)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> Yeah Lay down not JUMP down and "take the fall" as some have been showing. :cough: gripping leaves :cough, cough:


 
You weren't smitten by the sheer star power in that one either? :barf:


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Mar 24, 2007)

IWishToLearn said:


> You mean I can't sutemi any more?


 
A well-executed sacrifice throw is truly a thing of beauty, side-winding being my personal competition fave. Jumping to an arm-bar, or even to the guard when you feel the bout heading that way ain't bad either, depending on the context (concrete? multiples?). If you haven't seen the vid James is referencing, let me know; I'll send you the link.


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## Doc (Mar 24, 2007)

bushidomartialarts said:


> i've been a kenpo guy for a long time, and i love kenpo.  but we are weak on the ground.


You mean YOU right? Don't be so presumptious that you can speak for all of Kenpo based on your experiences please. I know some here right off the bat that would differ with you based on their skill and training. Hawkman straighten him out.  Don't hurtem' Dave.


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## Gentle Fist (Mar 24, 2007)

After earning my Nidan in Kenpo, I started studying BJJ and Judo.  It was the BEST thing I ever did!!!  It improved my overall game and I see a lot more openings for offense now, that I overlooked before...


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## kenpoworks (Mar 26, 2007)

Hey Doc,
I do not hang around the forums as much as I used to and rarely post anymore (I leave it to the smart guys), but I was over on the "darkside" and I thought I would post this about my "china"...
.......one of Docs Strengths is that he always gives praise where its due and that he can deliver critique with constuctive analysis......
...after reading this ....




Doc said:


> You mean YOU right? Don't be so presumptious that you can speak for all of Kenpo based on your experiences please. I know some here right off the bat that would differ with you based on their skill and training. Hawkman straighten him out.  Don't hurtem' Dave.


 
....I will have to add he also gets to the point Pretty Dam Quick.

Rich


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Mar 26, 2007)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> You weren't smitten by the sheer star power in that one either? :barf:


 
yeah, seeing stars alright...from the impact.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Mar 26, 2007)

bushidomartialarts said:


> i've been a kenpo guy for a long time, and i love kenpo. but *we *are weak on the ground.


 
I'm so sorry for *you.* LOL.


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## N1ck8586 (Mar 27, 2007)

Thats a very bold statement! There are so many different schools out there with so many different training routines, so to sum it all up and say for all kenpoists inspite of rank or experience to be weak on the ground is a bold generalisation Mr Trevor Sherman to name one from what iv seen is very skilled on the ground.....just an example.  take it easy guys.


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## Blindside (Mar 27, 2007)

N1ck8586 said:


> Thats a very bold statement! There are so many different schools out there with so many different training routines, so to sum it all up and say for all kenpoists inspite of rank or experience to be weak on the ground is a bold generalisation Mr Trevor Sherman to name one from what iv seen is very skilled on the ground.....just an example. take it easy guys.


 
I'm willing to make that "bold generalisation" again, as I already did earlier on this thread, most kenpoists are not strong on the ground, if they are it generally is because they cross-trained.  I'm the first to admit I am not strong on the ground, if I'm lucky I'm adequate, but I owe most of that knowledge to a year of BJJ and 6 months of judo.  Please point out examples of kenpoists who you would consider to be "very skilled" on the ground that have trained solely in kenpo.  

Lamont


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Mar 27, 2007)

Blindside said:


> Please point out examples of kenpoists who you would consider to be "very skilled" on the ground that have trained solely in kenpo.
> 
> Lamont


 
Excellent point. 

I made it a point at several times to add focus on judo and grappling, and at times the belt cards for my guys have had japanese names for judo throws, then the English interpretations of the japanese names (after all, kenpo is spasosed to be American, ne?), and so on.  I know my guys can roll, but it's either because I taught them, or they were good at it before they got to me (college wrestlers, etc.).

For my two cents, kenpo in it's recent incarnations is not designed to be a ground art, but that doesn't take away from it's upright effectiveness. The MMA craze has spotlighted the ground game, and made it a hyper-focus. There are guys in kenpo who say the grappling has been there all along. If that's true, why was I able to go through a half-dozen champion kenpo black belts in a half-hour, submitting them all, with only months of BJJ...and all of these guys could whoop me on our feet (circa 1990-91, when nobody had seen a UFC yet, because they didn't exist).

Despite the "if you turn your head sideways and squint at parting wings under full moonlight, there's a dismount possibility" stuff, I ain't buying it. If you want a dismount, learn a proper dismount. Kenpo, ideally, should keep you off the floor. Couple of quick shots to nasty targets, and run like heck while the guy's still reeling. THAT is the essence of effective self-defense. This "me macho man; me stand here and battle you to finish for bragging rights of supremacy" thing is only since the UFC. It's for professional fighters with purses on the line, not how you should train to handle a confrontation in the stadium parking garage with 3 guys against you.

In older kenpo camps, there was some fighting from the ground, as I described on a different thread, and Doc has some nostalgic footage of: Sparring from the ground, on your back, your side, your butt, from a crawl position, defending and attacking from each of these to the different directions of the clock. Technically, it's ground-fighting; it's also kenpo. But it's not grappling. So there IS such a thing as kenpo groundfighting, but I don't know anyone who teaches it anymore...too grueling, and not sexy enough to keep a classes attention.

Thanks for the throught-provoking thread. Kempojujutsu3 was on another forum describing MMA/BJJ terms in their old Japanese Judo/Jujutsu nomenclature, and I knew exactly what he was referring to because I've put my nose to the same grindstone a couple of times. It then occurred to me that the vast majority of kenpo practitioners would not be able to track the conversation without a Judo text on their desk, so I'm circumstantially compelled to cede your point about kenpoist-grapplers having sourced their info elsewhere.

Be good,

Dave.


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## IWishToLearn (Mar 27, 2007)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> This "me macho man; me stand here and battle you to finish for bragging rights of supremacy" thing is only since the UFC. It's for professional fighters with purses on the line, not how you should train to handle a confrontation in the stadium parking garage with 3 guys against you.




Heh. Nicely put Meester Dave!


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## kempo-vjj (Mar 27, 2007)

I think this post has already really been answered. I think the moves are there, it's about if yu have learned them in a different aspect than stand up. I have trained in a few styles, and the thing I find most interesting is the similiarity in body movement. This is why I think only teaching technique, and not theory dumbs a person down. I have found when I grasp onto a theory that many doors unlock. Adding theory into yur kenpo you learn these techniques have many inserts. Doing groundwork, I soon learned that my wrist locks also work while on the ground, not just for stand up and throws and whatever else. As my instructor puts it not to simply understand but to overstand. If that's even a word, but it works for us. I do think theory is learned better at say a yellow belt, or after basics are acheived.


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## MJS (Mar 27, 2007)

I guess my thoughts are, sure, we have all of our 'nasty' things we can do.  Usually though, when we mention those nasty things, its also stated that the other guy is capable of doing the same thing.  So in essence, it seems like they counter act each other.  When I ask the question, I'm looking for something specific.  In other words, a technique that we can do if we're mounted, one if we're side mounted, one if we're in their guard, etc.  Sorry, but I'm just not seeing it.  If there is a chance I could end up in a bad position, I want something that I can rely on, something I know has high odds of working.  This is the #1 reason I cross train.  

I love Kenpo.  If I didn't I wouldn't have invested so many years into it.  I don't say these things to belittle the art, I say them because I'm seeing something that IMO, is lacking, yet I hear that it isn't, but yet I never see solid proof.  Who knows...maybe I'm still missing it.

Mike


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## kidswarrior (Mar 27, 2007)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> In older kenpo camps, there was some fighting from the ground, as I described on a different thread, and Doc has some nostalgic footage of: Sparring from the ground, on your back, your side, your butt, from a crawl position, defending and attacking from each of these to the different directions of the clock. Technically, it's ground-fighting; it's also kenpo. But it's not grappling. So there IS such a thing as kenpo groundfighting, but I don't know anyone who teaches it anymore...too grueling, and not sexy enough to keep a classes attention.
> 
> Be good,
> 
> Dave.



Well, I've lucked into doing that throwback style of groundfighting in my kempo because of initial training in hapkido, and substantial cross training in Kung Fu San Soo--lots of ground fighting, but not so much grappling in the BJJ or MMA mold. So, I teach lots of the stuff you mention, Dave, and maybe I'll lose (or have lost?) some students over it. But I want my guys to be ready for the street, the pavement arena, not the spotlight-and-glory arena. So, gotta follow my conscience (now if they want to begin cross training in grappling, after reaching blue or green belt with me, that's OK, too. Maybe they'll bring back something useful and we'll all learn from it).


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## kidswarrior (Mar 27, 2007)

kempo-vjj said:


> Adding theory into yur kenpo you learn these techniques have many inserts. Doing groundwork, I soon learned that my wrist locks also work while on the ground, not just for stand up and throws and whatever else. As my instructor puts it not to simply understand but to overstand.



Good point. We practice forms from the ground on our backs and sides, sometimes adding an 'attacker' to visualize and create new bunkai (amazing what leg movements turn into/ward off/attack from this position). This may all be old hat for some seniors out there, but I'm a relative newbie at 14 years in Asian arts, so if I'm merely reinventing the wheel, old timers in the arts please forgive me. 

Oh, and I agree with your point about 'theory.' Kane and Wilder in _The Way of Kata_ draw the distinction between an art's strategy (always true in every situation/preplanned) and tactics (adapted for the situation and changing with it). Without a clear strategy, an 'art' is merely a collection of techniques. At least, I believe that's the point you're making, with which I concur.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Mar 28, 2007)

Blindside said:


> Please point out examples of kenpoists who you would consider to be "very skilled" on the ground that have trained solely in kenpo.
> 
> Lamont


 
Better question.  Point out examples of Kenpoists who would be considered "very skilled" that have trained solely in Kenpo.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Mar 28, 2007)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> Despite the "if you turn your head sideways and squint at parting wings under full moonlight, there's a dismount possibility" stuff, I ain't buying it.


 
too funny :rofl:




> Kempojujutsu3 was on another forum describing MMA/BJJ terms in their old Japanese Judo/Jujutsu nomenclature, and I knew exactly what he was referring to because I've put my nose to the same grindstone a couple of times. It then occurred to me that the vast majority of kenpo practitioners would not be able to track the conversation without a Judo text on their desk.... Dave.


 
Are you implying that I purposely posted a conversation that couldn't be tracked by most of the readers just to get some of them thinking and to point out that there is so much more out there? Noooooo couldn't be. :rofl:

You're the best Dave. One of the reasons I stay on the forums.


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## rockky (May 4, 2007)

i had forgotten that i'd asked this question... i stumbled upon it when i saw the jeff speakman gauntlet on youtube and saw "gripping leaves" for the first time.

anyway, it seems to me that im going to study jujitsu after i earn my kenpo black belt in about a year or so. i saw some critiques on the jeff speakman techniques "Kenpo 5.0" on another forum:

http://www.karateforums.com/kenpo-5-0-vt28017.html

I think the dominant point that stuck in my mind was that in order to execute grappling moves, one should have a full understanding of grappling itself.

I would like to know this, any advice on avoiding takedowns... 

i have another question related but I'll post it as a new thread.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (May 4, 2007)

rockky said:


> i had forgotten that i'd asked this question... i stumbled upon it when i saw the jeff speakman gauntlet on youtube and saw "gripping leaves" for the first time.
> 
> anyway, it seems to me that im going to study jujitsu after i earn my kenpo black belt in about a year or so. i saw some critiques on the jeff speakman techniques "Kenpo 5.0" on another forum:
> 
> ...


 
1) Be aware of range

2) Keep your hips low

3) Keep one hand ready to "frame out" or "underhook"

4) Learn a "whizzer"

5) Circular footwork


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## Doc (May 4, 2007)

bushidomartialarts said:


> i've been a kenpo guy for a long time, and i love kenpo.  but we are weak on the ground.



What do you mean when you say "we?"


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## Blindside (May 4, 2007)

Doc said:


> What do you mean when you say "we?"


 
Psst, Doc you already said this on the top of page 2.


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## INDYFIGHTER (May 4, 2007)

I don't train how to fight on the ground as much as I train to not be taken down.  I'm 150lbs so the last place I ever want to be is under someone.


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## Flying Crane (May 4, 2007)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> For my two cents, kenpo in it's recent incarnations is not designed to be a ground art, but that doesn't take away from it's upright effectiveness. The MMA craze has spotlighted the ground game, and made it a hyper-focus. There are guys in kenpo who say the grappling has been there all along. If that's true, why was I able to go through a half-dozen champion kenpo black belts in a half-hour, submitting them all, with only months of BJJ...and all of these guys could whoop me on our feet (circa 1990-91, when nobody had seen a UFC yet, because they didn't exist).
> 
> Despite the "if you turn your head sideways and squint at parting wings under full moonlight, there's a dismount possibility" stuff, I ain't buying it. If you want a dismount, learn a proper dismount. Kenpo, ideally, should keep you off the floor. Couple of quick shots to nasty targets, and run like heck while the guy's still reeling. THAT is the essence of effective self-defense. This "me macho man; me stand here and battle you to finish for bragging rights of supremacy" thing is only since the UFC. It's for professional fighters with purses on the line, not how you should train to handle a confrontation in the stadium parking garage with 3 guys against you.
> 
> ...


 
I cannot comment on kenpo in its recent incarnations, but I can comment on it from the viewpoint of Tracys.  My instructor began in the Tracys lineage in about 1963 or so, and studied directly under the Tracy brothers.  I did discuss this issue with him a bit, not too long ago.

We do practice breakfalling, and defending ourselves from the ground.  Our goal is to get up from the ground as quickly as possible, and carry the fight from up on our feet, or else simply get away.  As you state, we have ground fighting, but it is not grappling.  We have no interest in staying on the ground and turning the fight into a submission match.  I agree, that is the realm of professional fighters who are competing for a fat purse.  Instead we focus on moving and striking from the ground and not allowing the bad guy to get in and actually grapple with us.  At the first opportunity, we are up on our feet where we are strongest.  Again, like you say, give him some good shots and get away without turning it into a grappling match.  That is self defense.  It's not prize fighting.

According to my instructor, the Tracys told him that when they trained with Mr. Parker they often practiced falling and rolling and ground work.  It was a standard and regular part of training.  They have also stated that Mr. Parker was a very formidable opponent on the mat, in a grappling situation.  In the early days, groundwork was definitely part of what they did.

It seems that much of this did not get codified into the SD techniques.  While we have some basic takedowns and simple followups in some of our SD techs in Tracys, we don't have the groundwork that we practice codified and named as SD techs.  My instructor indicated that a lot of this material, while it was always there, just never got codified in the same way.  So if someone is sticking strictly to the codified curriculum, the named SD techs, then yes, they are missing the groundwork.  My first instructors stuck to the codified curriculum and did not give much groundwork to me.  What little I had was from a college buddy who was a judo guy.  But my current instructor is teaching the groundwork in the same way it was taught to him by the Tracys, and how they learned it from Mr. Parker.


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## Doc (May 4, 2007)

Blindside said:


> Psst, Doc you already said this on the top of page 2.



Oh, so now you're trying to say I'm senile or something? -  What were we talking about again?


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## rockky (May 4, 2007)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> 1) Be aware of range
> 
> 2) Keep your hips low
> 
> ...



This is what I mean: I don't know what most of the above means because I don't know grappling... I'm not sure what to do with "be aware of range" since the kenpo I learned, i'd get right in their face to do a lot of hand technique.

I mean, let's say I throw a punch, and the guy ducks down, and he's going to grab both my legs from underneath and take me down.... attempt a "closed kneel" and an inward elbow?? or by then am i in the domain of grappling and strikes won't work effectivley?


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