# Conversation on Staff Applications



## JowGaWolf (May 15, 2021)

This is a staff that I was originally posting for @geezer but thought some others may be interested.

@gpseymour 
@Kung Fu Wang 
@Flying Crane 

The video below is me demonstrating the the first technique in the Jow Ga double head staff.  It's performed in application just like it's performed in the form.  I was going to show some other techniques but didn't feel like dealing with the drama and the comments, so I'll see how this one goes.  Before I post the other stuff.  The move is very simple, but there's a lot going on that allows it to work.  I think that "trying to fix it"  will  break the application.  Feel free to try it with your family or friends just be safe with it.  Don't feel like you have to go 100% with this











So here's what's going on in no particular order.
1. staff is held low because you want your opponent to grab downward.  Don't rest the staff against your body,  you need a few inches to pull the staff back while you are lifting.
2. Your reach is longer when your arm is parallel to the ground (reaching directly out from)  If you hold the staff high then the person will have a better chance to grab the staff.
3.  Holding the staff low is a bait.  Standing with the legs close is also a bait.   Not for just this technique but for another in the form.  Chinese Martial Arts will often encourage the enemy to go for the wrong thing.  In this technique I want my opponent to go for the staff.  I want him to think that's a win.
4. As the opponent reaches for the staff, I will pull the staff back which puts the staff beyond my opponent's reach.  I want to pull it back and up at the same time.  I don't want the motion to have a curve to it.  I don't want to pull it staight back, then up, then out.  I want stop and go motions in my motion because it cuts the power flow off and takes longer.  I want to use that pull back to help power my forward push, so it has to curve.

I don't want to just lift up like the lady has done in the video below.  My elbows should not be out as shown but the lady below. The arms should be more in a push up position behind the staff (see the picture of my son).  By the way I didn't tell my son how to pose or how to it should look.  I just explained the application and how he wants to pull the staff out of my reach.  The rest work itself out because of how body mechanics work.  The biggest thing that helps is to know why you are doing the what you are doing.  I can't say that the woman isn't doing a valid technique as I cannot think of anything that would make me want to raise my staff the way that she's raising it. 

This technique still works if the stick is a little higher but, the strike will not land because I'm not reaching as far in.  The drop in the stance is important because I want to hit upward on the face. I often picture striking under the nose and pushing upward at a slight angle and into the skull.

5. The slight bend in the knees also helps to put you lower just in case the person wants to shoot for your legs after missing the grab, You will be low enough to smash them in the face.










Here you can see where the strike is going to hit me. . If the strike falls short then step into a cross stance and strike the head. Which is the second technique in the form.  Does that second move have to be a cross stance? I don't know.  I haven't tried this scenario yet.  Well that's all I know about this specific technique. I can't think of any applications for this one yet.  I've seen some other applications but I don't feel comfortable with those.  Like one was to smash the person in the chest.  I guess you could do that but I rather aim a little higher to catch them in the neck or the face.

My son was being really careful not to hit me as that staff meets the face really fast.  I'm afraid that me moving faster will cause me to extend too much and will cause him to react faster as well in order to avoid the grab.  If that happens then I'm getting smashed in my face.


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## Flying Crane (May 16, 2021)

It’s a simple, straightforward technique with a lot of obvious applications, really any time something is coming in at you.   Attack the enemy or attack his weapon.  This kind of thing is the bread and butter stuff that works.  Simple, powerful, decisive.


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## JowGaWolf (May 16, 2021)

This one I discovered / learned on my own.  But that's not the important thing.   The important thing is how I got to this point.  During my training when I was an instructor we were always taught that we use this movement for when someone grab the staff.  When I tried it, it never felt right, it felt like I was trying to make something work vs just doing the movement and letting it work on  it's own.  I also had a strong desire to just lay that staff across someone's face. (this is the second important thing).

My recommendations to learning or figuring out weapon techniques is to trust any feeling that you get when doing it.  If you are doing a technique and you feel like you want attack high or attack or hit someone with the end of the weapon,  then follow those feelings and see where it takes you.  Those feelings may lead you to a practical answer faster than trying to be logical about it.

"use the force Luke" lol. 
But seriously, trust those feelings.  There's always a possibility that an application for a technique was handed down incorrect.  Before computers and video, it was only books and memory.  Those methods only work well if you have a good record keeper, if at one point a good record keeper wasn't around then there would be a risk that something would be lost.

My second recommendation is to video tape yourself as you try these applications..  Sometimes the reason we have difficulty is because we are viewing it from a first person point of view.  You guys are very knowledgeable in your systems and you could  probably see a lot more if you could step outside of your body and watch yourself go through these techniques.  While stepping outside of our body to watch yourself train is in possible, you still can accomplish the same thing with a video.

Video allows you to play and pause yourself and to watch yourself from both the teacher's view and the student view at the same time.  This is something that many of our teachers did not have and their teacher did not have.


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## JowGaWolf (May 16, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> It’s a simple, straightforward technique with a lot of obvious applications, really any time something is coming in at you.   Attack the enemy or attack his weapon.  This kind of thing is the bread and butter stuff that works.  Simple, powerful, decisive.


I think it's amazing that having the person to reach down at an angle to grab the stick puts their face in the right place for the strike.  Nothing to figure out in terms of "what if their face isn't in the right place?"  if they are reaching down at and angle then it will be their.


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## geezer (May 16, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> The video below is me demonstrating the the first technique in the Jow Ga double head staff.  It's performed in application just like it's performed in the form.


Thanks for the clear and detailed, explanation. And the great videos!  What you show makes sense. We also practice a straight thrust with center of the staff, but not from the foot-together stance. 

Now to be clear, I do understand the concept of _baiting_ ...but I prefer to "bait" from positions that allow me more options. The strategic problem is that however you bait someone, you really _don't know_ how they will react. So you don't want to commit to a single anticipated response to your baiting.

Interestingly, the first movement after the "bow" or "salute" in our center-grip staff form is a response against a similar confrontation, with someone of uncertain intentions approaching you and then trying to grab ahold of your staff. 

In our form, the response to this scenario is direct and aggressive. In application practice, we  explore several options (as overt aggression may not be appropriate). In both cases we remain in ...natural, stable, and (IMO) adaptable stances. 

I'm going to meet with a couple of guys a little later. I'll throw a couple of staffs in the car and maybe we can grab a little impromptu phone video. Then if someone can show me how to post it... Well, no promises, but it would be a good way to continue this discussion.


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## JowGaWolf (May 16, 2021)

geezer said:


> but I prefer to "bait" from positions that allow me more options. The strategic problem is that however you bait someone, you really _don't know_ how they will react. So you don't want to commit to a single anticipated response to your baiting.


This is the reality of fighting in general so the best chance is to lure the person into what you want them to do.  If the stance is too defensive then they won't grab for the staff,  they may go for an weapon of their own, they may go for a sword or a bow, or more people.  But in general if people think they can take a weapon from you.  Then that's what they are going to try to do.

The neutral stance would be the one I would take while talking things out.  Replace these wooden weapons with a staff you'll have a more solid looking line as the staff would cover the gaps.  You would also have a wider push back ability provided that the protestors didn't overload one side more than the other.  If the staffs overlap the gap then it will be 2 officers pushing against the incoming crowd instead of one.  This should allow the 2 officers to cover that gap a little more.  It would also provide a place where other officers can reinforce the line by grabbing the part of the staff that is covering the gap, just a large range of things and that can be done from that stance with the staff.





But back to the neutral stance.  If I'm in a conflict with one person. Then I would take that neutral.  I haven't tried this application yet, but as I read your comment I thought what would do if someone tried to shoot in on me to wrap their arms around mind.  The answer that I came up with was to do the same upward motion.  If they are trying to immobilize my arms so I can uses the staff, then that upward motion would raise their arms, then I can shoot the middle part of the staff into their chest while under their arms.  After the strike, I could then follow up with that second technique which can be used in grappling as well.  It's not only a strike, this I'm 100% certain of and have been training it as both. My son has been a good sport with me tossing him and I return the favor and he's able to do the same with me .

*New Update*:
My thoughts about the bear hug scenario when someone traps to immobilize my arms works.  I just tried with my wife. That upward movement smashed bones.  I learned that by the sound the staff made has it hit the bones.  My wife was not too happy.  I didn't do it full speed, it was walk through speed.  Then I had her try the same thing on me so I could understand what was going on with the mechanics. The staff lands really nice on the ribs. Really good placement, it interrupts the raising of the staff and the blast to the chest interrupts the forward movement.  There's no way to brace for the impact because the raising of the staff raises the arms.  The second step (which I should probably video) turns the body. which I was 100% sure of.  I almost hurt by back again as my wife was able to easily turn my body.

I wasn't just going with the turn  (which is why I almost injured my back.)  I tried to add resistance from the position that the chest strike put me in, because it's the only way to feel how the technique is working against me.

FYI: When I make statements like "almost hurt my back", I'm referring to the initial stress that I'm feeling on my back as I try to resist, once I feel that, I'll just go with the flow and stop trying to resist.  A lot of times resisting is what causes the injury.  This is also why I initially go through these things myself so I can understand what's going on before testing on my son.  Now that I know what is happening, I can safely train with others.   After my son experiences it, he will then be able to safely train with me and not injure me.  He will have a good reference as to which part of the technique have to be handled with extreme care.

In terms of the bear hug type attack.  It doesn't feel like I can get the same results without the cross stance.  The cross stance allows me to step around my training parter's footing.



geezer said:


> In our form, the response to this scenario is direct and aggressive. In application practice, we explore several options (as overt aggression may not be appropriate).


Same here.  After experience on a very low level of what's happening to my body as these techniques are applied, there's no way I can even go at some of this stuff at 20%.  Like 20% power of a staff strike on the skull still hurts.  20% power on a twist that stress the back, is still an injury.  I personally don't want to spend another 6 months trying heal from another injury.  I don't want to even spend the 3 days for muscle recovery lol.


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## JowGaWolf (May 16, 2021)

geezer said:


> I'm going to meet with a couple of guys a little later. I'll throw a couple of staffs in the car and maybe we can grab a little impromptu phone video. Then if someone can show me how to post it... Well, no promises, but it would be a good way to continue this discussion.


I look forward to it.  Let us know if you need help with the video.  I'm sure there is someone here that can help. lol.


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## geezer (May 16, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I look forward to it.  Let us know if you need help with the video.  I'm sure there is someone here that can help. lol.


Thanks! ...it'll have to wait a bit. The staff student didn't make it and we ended up focusing on something completely different.


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## JowGaWolf (May 18, 2021)

Just sitting here waiting to get my 2nd vaccination.

 I have a second staff application video coming using the same motion.  I think I'm starting to like grappling with the staff.  It seems to be easier in some aspects.


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## JowGaWolf (May 18, 2021)

Feel free to try these applications out if you like. Just be careful with the strikes as the opposite end of the staff comes around really fast. It's easy to focus on one end of the staff and forget about the other end.

I'm curious if you guys get similar results. I would like know where the technique failed for you and if it failed.  

@geezer personal thanks.  Your post about having other options made me think about what if scenarios and as a result I discovered that the first two techniques in the bow has some decent coverage.  The second technique gives me some insight on why the school teaches that it used to strike the ches or to push someone away.  It's just not in the way that they think.  It's seems that this may be where the confusion lies.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 18, 2021)

Have you tried the following staff skills?

Put a staff on the ground, use your foot to roll it toward you, you then hook it up with your instep, and

- use your hand to grab on that staff.
- kick it to your opponent 10 feet away so he can grab on that staff.


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## JowGaWolf (May 18, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Have you tried the following staff skills?
> 
> Put a staff on the ground, use your foot to roll it toward you, you then hook it up with your instep, and
> 
> ...


Nope I haven't tried that.  I'm not even sure if I can visualize that correctly.


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## isshinryuronin (May 18, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Put a staff on the ground, use your foot to roll it toward you, you then hook it up with your instep, and
> 
> - use your hand to grab on that staff.


I saw this done in an early Kenpo branch school and one other kenpo school and worked it for a while.  You have one foot forward and one back, sort of a cat stance, with the staff in-between.  The front foot slides back, the sole rolling the staff on to the instep of the back foot.  The rolling foot then steps back.  Pull the (now) front foot and toes up, hooking the staff in the middle, flipping it into the air for a catch.  All this is predicated on the staff laying just right on the ground.  Hope this helps JowGaWolf's quote on visualization, at the bottom of the post.

Hard to do if you have fat toes, or are wearing shoes.  I never saw it done consistently and consider it a trick move.  Easier to bend down and just quickly pick it up if safety allows.  If not, well, that's the price you pay for dropping your weapon. Maybe Kung Fu Wang has it mastered?


JowGaWolf said:


> I'm not even sure if I can visualize that correctly


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 18, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> The front foot slides back, the sole rolling the staff on to the instep of the back foot.


What you have described is very similar to what I used to do. I will also start with a cat stance (empty stance). I use my front foot to roll the stick back, I then move my front foot back, use the instep of my *front foot* to catch it, I then either kick it into my hand, or to my opponent.

Another trick that I used to to is to put the middle of the staff on my right shoulder. Use my right hand to hold 6 inch from one end. I then push down that end, let the staff to rotate on my right shoulder. I release one end, reach to the other end, this way the staff can rotate vertically on my right shoulder non-stop.

Both tricks are just to be familiar with the staff, so the staff can coordinate with hand and foot better.


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## punisher73 (May 19, 2021)

Dumb question...what is the standard length of the staff in Jow Gar?


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## JowGaWolf (May 19, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> I saw this done in an early Kenpo branch school and one other kenpo school and worked it for a while.  You have one foot forward and one back, sort of a cat stance, with the staff in-between.  The front foot slides back, the sole rolling the staff on to the instep of the back foot.  The rolling foot then steps back.  Pull the (now) front foot and toes up, hooking the staff in the middle, flipping it into the air for a catch.  All this is predicated on the staff laying just right on the ground.  Hope this helps JowGaWolf's quote on visualization, at the bottom of the post.
> 
> Hard to do if you have fat toes, or are wearing shoes.  I never saw it done consistently and consider it a trick move.  Easier to bend down and just quickly pick it up if safety allows.  If not, well, that's the price you pay for dropping your weapon. Maybe Kung Fu Wang has it mastered?


Thanks. That helps. not sure if I'll be adding that one to my skill set.  I practice on concrete so any rolling of the staff will create rough spots on my staff.  Maybe something I can do in the grass.  

Is there any benefit in this.


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## JowGaWolf (May 19, 2021)

punisher73 said:


> Dumb question...what is the standard length of the staff in Jow Gar?


Good question because I was never given a guide on staff height.  In the school we trained with staffs of various sizes (not by choice if you didn't have your own).  My own personal guide is a range.  
- Staff should not be shorter than your height
- Staff cannot touch the ground when you hold the middle of the staff and raise your arm parallel to the ground.  There should be a few inches (1or 2) between the ground and the bottom of the staff.

Anything within that range should still allow you to flower the staff without issue and to do other techniques.  

When the staff is too short then the range becomes too short in a bad way, like trying to block a swing or attack, Your opponent's staff only to have it go under there staff.  When the staff is too high then it causes problems with the lower "upper cut" type swings and "paddle your boat" movement.   My son was having difficulty in performing one of the techniques so I told him to think like he's rowing a boat and that seemed to work.  Not sure if that works for other people.  Below is the "paddle your boat"  motion.  If your staff is tool long then this motion becomes troublesome when the stance level changes causing the staff to hit the ground.  It becomes less of an issue as you get used to the size of the staff you are using.

If it's too short like the Jo Staff in Aikido then you end up missing the staff when you use a similar "paddle your boat" technique.  Making sure your staff doesn't hit the ground when doing techniques like the one below is more important than the flowering.   We don't do a lot of flowering but it's a good measurement of when a staff is too long.


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## JowGaWolf (May 19, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Both tricks are just to be familiar with the staff, so the staff can coordinate with hand and foot better.


That sounds good.  "To be familiar with the staff" is the first thing I said before I started training.  I literally thought to myself that "I need to be really familiar with the staff" if I'm going to be able to use it and apply the techniques.  I knew I couldn't be a robot with it.


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## JowGaWolf (May 19, 2021)

This is a Jow Ga 2 man set with the double headed staff.  You can see here that the fighting range is close.   The safest area is within the swing radius.  When we watch staff sparing from HEMA and The Dog Brothers, we see them fight on the outside of the string radius.  Both methods are valid, it's just 2 different approaches.





This is from Lam Ga





My thoughts on the double headed staff method is that a lot of it will be the same across many styles. There's only so many ways to swing a staff in a way that will make the strike powerful and fast.  






There is also tons of grappling with the staff.


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## JowGaWolf (May 19, 2021)

Caution about some of the things you see on Youtube in terms of staff training.  Some of the things are accurate and not accurate at the same time.  This isn't me being a know it all, but as you work with the staff and become familiar with the techniques, you'll begin to see key things that need to be done in order for the technique to be successful. You'll be 100% sure about it because it's something you've worked out and figured out on your own.

At 0:014 in the video below.  He uses an entry that is similar to all staff systems (as far as I can tell).  At 0:32 he says "Don't disconnect with the bow" then he shows an example of why. This is not true.  If you want to do the technique he's doing then it requires that the bow stays in contact.  If you want to smack the guy on the head then you can disconnect.  The technique is correct but the warning isn't.  The key point in this technique like others is that you move forward to get inside of the swing.  In his demos you'll see him take that step forward.  But when he gets to  :32 he doesn't take a step forward.  If anything the warning he gives should be "Move / Step inside the swing..This is why"    The only thing I can say is that we all goof sometimes.  Just be cautious of this stuff as I may make similar mistakes.   It's sort of like talking where you say one word when you really mean to use a different word.  That split attention is a killer lol


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## punisher73 (May 19, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Good question because I was never given a guide on staff height.  In the school we trained with staffs of various sizes (not by choice if you didn't have your own).  My own personal guide is a range.
> - Staff should not be shorter than your height
> - Staff cannot touch the ground when you hold the middle of the staff and raise your arm parallel to the ground.  There should be a few inches (1or 2) between the ground and the bottom of the staff.





JowGaWolf said:


> Good question because I was never given a guide on staff height.  In the school we trained with staffs of various sizes (not by choice if you didn't have your own).  My own personal guide is a range.
> - Staff should not be shorter than your height
> - Staff cannot touch the ground when you hold the middle of the staff and raise your arm parallel to the ground.  There should be a few inches (1or 2) between the ground and the bottom of the staff.
> 
> ...


Thanks!  Sometimes when I watched a Jow Ga staff set it looked like a 6 foot staff and other times it looked longer and never saw anything that said the length.


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## JowGaWolf (May 19, 2021)

punisher73 said:


> Thanks!  Sometimes when I watched a Jow Ga staff set it looked like a 6 foot staff and other times it looked longer and never saw anything that said the length.


No problem.  Do you do any staff training?


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## punisher73 (May 20, 2021)

Not at the moment, but will be part of the curriculum in the future.  Jow Ga has interested me and I am in the process of learning Siu Fok fu right now.


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## JowGaWolf (May 20, 2021)

punisher73 said:


> Not at the moment, but will be part of the curriculum in the future.  Jow Ga has interested me and I am in the process of learning Siu Fok fu right now.


Are you teaching yourself?  If so, how ist that going.  Just curious about what it's like for someone who learning the form on their own and the type of challenges you are running into.


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## Deleted member 39746 (May 20, 2021)

I dont know if its applciable but there is a scene in the man in the high castle where the japanese ambassador kills someone with their staff.  (going to say its a jo)   No idea how apt it is but its at least a intresting screen performace of it i have seen, its not like a long flashy scene either its like done in  mineute.   The pre amble is he is always doing forms with the staff in the show. 


My one gripe with youtube (as i am trying to look into this topic), is the fake "staff fights".   I want actual techniques for fighting from an actual martial art not the clickbait nonsense that is everywhere or the "actual kung fu fight" video which is clearly fradulent.  I think we all know who i am talking about with the last one.  Actually wading through as fidning the non performance **** and then reliable videos on it is a slog.     I did the search a several days ago, and the first thing mentioned in the video i found was "break the staff", i have yet to look since.   (yes i did immediately turn it off)


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## JowGaWolf (May 20, 2021)

Rat said:


> My one gripe with youtube (as i am trying to look into this topic), is the fake "staff fights". I want actual techniques for fighting from an actual martial art not the clickbait nonsense that is everywhere or the "actual kung fu fight" video which is clearly fradulent.


I know what you mean with this,  I had to shift through a bunch of that as well.  So much of what is on youtube is dedicated to the entertainment performance of martial arts.  So far the best search term to use is "2 man staff set"  or "two man staff set"  This will cut down the nonsense.  If you do a Japanese or Korean martial arts, then you may have to do some some translation of movement.  By that you may have to see what is going on in staff applications from other systems and try to determine if that movement translate into the Japanese or Korean staff system.  If you are looking for Japanese or Korean Staff techniques, then I would recommend sticking with the traditional techniques.

You'll also need to get rid of anything flashy that you see, like spin-arounds and any flowering that is more than 2 revolutions/ cycles / spins.  Stay Away from Jake Mace's stuff.  Look for the older stuff and pay attention to the boring looking stuff.   There are a lot of people who are good with the flashy staff stuff and the cool fight scenes, but in reality I don't think staff fights lasted long unless it was a stalemate where 2 fighters were cautious about entering into a fight.  What I'm finding out with my own training is that there is very little room for screwing up.  The staff combos are like punching combos.
1 punch
1-2 punch
1-2-3 punch.

1 staff strike
1-2 staff strike
1-2-3 staff strike.

Yeah anyone who is strong enough to break a staff with their hands either doesn't need one or that's the worse staff in the world and it came with termites. 

Once you find a couple of good basic strikes then you can start exploring them from the perspective of just seeing what happens and not so much trying to figure things out.  You'll know when you have the correct application because it's simple, direct, and you should be able to feel the effect even if you are moving slowly.  I kind of think of it like standing on one leg.  Even if someone pushes you gently you should still be able to feel that loss of balance and know that it will be worse if someone pushes you hard while standing on one leg.


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## Tony Dismukes (May 20, 2021)

Rat said:


> My one gripe with youtube (as i am trying to look into this topic), is the fake "staff fights". I want actual techniques for fighting from an actual martial art not the clickbait nonsense that is everywhere or the "actual kung fu fight" video which is clearly fradulent.


If you want to see actual fights with the staff, then your best bet is videos of Dog Brothers gatherings. However I haven't found any compilations of just the fights with staff, so you'll probably have to watch a bunch of fights with one-handed sticks to get to the bouts with staff or other weapons. For example, this one has a staff fight starting at about 5min35sec into the video:


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## isshinryuronin (May 20, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> You'll also need to get rid of anything flashy that you see, like spin-arounds and any flowering that is more than 2 revolutions/ cycles / spins


In the Okinawan bo katas I know, EVERY move is either a strike or block, done with power.  Out of the 300-350 moves total, there is one jump and spin combo and two other spin moves with strong strikes immediately coming out of the turn.  Also, all footwork/stepping is involved directly in blocking or striking.


JowGaWolf said:


> pay attention to the boring looking stuff.


Great advice.   Not just for MA, but life in general.  Often, the plain and simple, well done, is the most elegant.


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## Deleted member 39746 (May 20, 2021)

Tony Dismukes said:


> If you want to see actual fights with the staff, then your best bet is videos of Dog Brothers gatherings. However I haven't found any compilations of just the fights with staff, so you'll probably have to watch a bunch of fights with one-handed sticks to get to the bouts with staff or other weapons. For example, this one has a staff fight starting at about 5min35sec into the video:



I dont even nesssasirly want fight videos, i just dont want the previously mentioned toft which is "simply break the staff in two".      there is more sources in japanese due to Jodo being a thing, but i dont know japanese.  

Imagine if you taught firearms to people and your first statement was "first catch the bullet with your teeth then.." thats the equal here.      

its a good fight source though.  

@JowGaWolf   Lucky for me i found some decent channels that cover quaterstaff, so simply applying it from there should do me.    Or at least know looking through HEMA sources is the best bet for this one.


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## JowGaWolf (May 20, 2021)

Rat said:


> @JowGaWolf Lucky for me i found some decent channels that cover quaterstaff, so simply applying it from there should do me. Or at least know looking through HEMA sources is the best bet for this one.


HEMA is a good reference too as they are actually interested in how the techniques work and how to apply them.  There focus is in the right place.  Some of the things are similar  to what you see with Kung Fu and Japanese spear, but some of the complete opposite and backwards. Like I would look a certain HEMA staff technique and think.   "Are you trying to get killed?"  and they would look at a certain Kung Fu staff technique and say the same thing. 

I don't think they can be mixed or blended even though they share similar principles. HEMA stances lead to HEMA techniques   Kung Fu Stances Lead to Kung Fu Techniques.  

Do you know what HEMA staffs are made of?


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## Christopher Adamchek (May 20, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I don't think they can be mixed or blended even though they share similar principles. HEMA stances lead to HEMA techniques   Kung Fu Stances Lead to Kung Fu Techniques.


I've found a decent balance of blending hema, chinese, japanese, filipino, and okinawa staff techniques and stances.  I and many of them have the same techniques but done in a stylistic manor or with a slightly different objective.


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## JowGaWolf (May 20, 2021)

Christopher Adamchek said:


> I've found a decent balance of blending hema, chinese, japanese, filipino, and okinawa staff techniques and stances.  I and many of them have the same techniques but done in a stylistic manor or with a slightly different objective.


That's good to know.  I would have thought the footwork + hand positioning would have caused some problems.  Or is it similarities between long footwork and short footwork.  So the spear techniques would have similar footwork and the short techniques would have similar footwork.  Or does none of that affect the swing, or is it that certain techniques are affected?


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## JowGaWolf (May 20, 2021)

*The effects of Stance Height with some of the techniques.*
These are just short clips of me and my son training.  These are walk through lessons that usually occur whenever I notice something,  That's when I share with my son what I'm discovering.  This is so he can "Discover at the same time with me."  He hurt his shoulder again pulled muscle not joint issue, which is why he's holding the staff strange in these clips it is also why I don't go through a faster demo of the technique.  

This technique is like sticky poles, but can also be done with a popping technique.  I'm not showing the actual striking technique here as the lesson is mainly about the importance of staff height. (It was only a matter of time, that I start talking about stances lol).  I apologize for the brown sticks against brown grass.  Not good for contrasts.  Didn't think about it.  I try pretty much show the same as if I was teaching it and it sometimes makes me forget about the other important stuff like background.  Not sure how this will show up on mobile devices.

*What you are seeing in the video*.
I found myself screwing up with the entry and saw that my stance was to high which caused me to take a direct line into the staff.

*Problem: *Sometimes people point staffs directly at you almost horizontally. This means they are taking a direct line to poking you with the end of the staff or spear. It's the fastest way to the target. An idea opponent would be kind enough to hold their spear at a 45 so you can strike the spear. There's Pro's and Con's to it but the fix is to adjust your stance.

*Where to watch:* Watch the end of my staff and the end of my son's staff. My foot position and my stance height, both change accordingly.





0:00  -  I try to enter by moving my son's staff away by using "Sticky Staff"  (similar to sticky hands, Chi Sao, etc)  When I stand up high my footwork takes a linear path towards my son, the staff quickly losses contact, and I basically walk into the end of the staff. 

0:25 - You see me lower my stance at the same distance and you'll notice that my staff makes more contact, towards my son's hands. I increase my stance and there's less.

The biggest thing that I notice is that it was easier for me to defend  from that position.  The lower stance also moves naturally offline the center line which is good for any attempts to stab me.  In application.  I would pop my son's staff off center line as I move off center line.   If I keep my staff over my son's staff so I can knock it down in the event my son tries to  swing the staff at me.  The sooner I can position my feet the sooner I can launch my strike.  I often find out that many of the long fist and staff / spear techniques are most effective at certain stance heights.  Stand up to tall, creates mobility issues, you will become a bigger target, and some of the techniques will fail because the stance is too high.

I will have to get my son to the point where he can demo it.  The force that I would need to pop the first strike will probably be to much for him at this point, so I'll have to wait for his muscles to become stronger.  

With the "Sticky Staff" (that's the term that was taught to me)  it's important to put downward pressure on your opponents staff.  Not too much but just enough so that he will focus on lifting this staff against the pressure and not on the strike that's about to occur.  If you don't give your opponent something to think about first then he will worry about the strike first.  

The same issue occurs when popping the staff out of the way.  You'll either knock the staff out of his hands, or the force of the pop will force him to think about holding on to the staff first and not about getting hit in the face first.


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## Deleted member 39746 (May 20, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Do you know what HEMA staffs are made of?


Rattan is a pretty cheap soft wood for training weapons with, so thats sort of domiant globally, but they tend to be Ash, oak or some form of hardwood.    (and any staff meant for fighting should be hard wood, the Jo's i have seen have been hardwood)  But at the same time, most HEMA schools jsut armour you up and do it with a thinner staff as far as i have seen.


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## Deleted member 39746 (May 21, 2021)

Just went looking for it, this is the video:  




I didnt get past the "break the staff part".    Also, your probbly not going to get a chance before they bring the staff back in for another thrust honestly.    (grabbing it is in anti spear doctrine, its just difficult to do)

Addednum:  Which immediately discredited everything he had to say further on the matter honestly.


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## JowGaWolf (May 21, 2021)

Rat said:


> Just went looking for it, this is the video:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


yeah there are a lot of things wrong that video. I don't know why some teacher feel the need to do stuff like that just to get people interested in their system.  I watched 2 minutes after the breaking of the staff and the rest is garbage too.


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## JowGaWolf (May 21, 2021)

So the other night, I was looking at HEMA stuff and I was surprised to see that one of the techniques they were talking about was named similar to the one I refer to as "Paddle the boat."  The technique being described was named after the Gondola 





Time to ask a Jow Ga Sifu what's the proper name.  I'm curious.


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## Christopher Adamchek (May 22, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> That's good to know.  I would have thought the footwork + hand positioning would have caused some problems.  Or is it similarities between long footwork and short footwork.  So the spear techniques would have similar footwork and the short techniques would have similar footwork.  Or does none of that affect the swing, or is it that certain techniques are affected?


Hand position is the biggest determining factor and will impact the foot work based on the objective.  So spear like techniques are rather similar even if they look stylistically different, since most styles use a long grip.  Side note: i love the HEMA extended thrust.  Training some of the sliding grip transitions more typical of jo work in japanese arts like aikijutsu and shinto muso ryu is really helpful for transitioning between the stylistic differences of hema, chinese, japanese, filipino, and okinawan.


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## Deleted member 39746 (May 22, 2021)

Christopher Adamchek said:


> Training some of the sliding grip transitions more typical of jo work


Speaking of that, i cant do that for the life of me.   I have tried to do it so many times i just cant get my head around it.      And its the first form in the SMR omote book i got.    In hindsight should have gotten the AJKF Jodo handbook, might have served me better looking at the PDF of it.  (it includes Kihon and how to hold the thing*)

Anyway, i just cant comprehend how to withdraw the staff from the first strike to the head.  From memory i belive its a thrust, but i have a equal belief its a over the head strike.   (would need to drudge up the manual and cant find a PDF of it in english)       Fricition is just the issue as far as i recall.   (granted its not with a jo)


*Apparntly no picturres so far, am skimming it at this moment, but at least it would give me a glossary of terms to go and look up videos on how to do it.


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## BrendanF (May 23, 2021)

Rat said:


> Speaking of that, i cant do that for the life of me.   I have tried to do it so many times i just cant get my head around it.      And its the first form in the SMR omote book i got.    In hindsight should have gotten the AJKF Jodo handbook, might have served me better looking at the PDF of it.  (it includes Kihon and how to hold the thing*)
> 
> Anyway, i just cant comprehend how to withdraw the staff from the first strike to the head.  From memory i belive its a thrust, but i have a equal belief its a over the head strike.   (would need to drudge up the manual and cant find a PDF of it in english)       Fricition is just the issue as far as i recall.   (granted its not with a jo)
> 
> ...



I'm not a shindo muso ryu guy - they use jo which should be short enough to feel the length during that transition.  The sliding between hands is at the heart of their kihon though.  I study the art SMR branched from; there is some similarity in our bojutsu.  We have a 'warm-up' drill that allows a student to practice that transition.  Then it's just practice.  I have sweaty palms and occasionally struggle, but with practice it becomes pretty straightforward.

Perhaps these will help


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## BrendanF (May 23, 2021)

Rat said:


> Speaking of that, i cant do that for the life of me.   I have tried to do it so many times i just cant get my head around it.      And its the first form in the SMR omote book i got.    In hindsight should have gotten the AJKF Jodo handbook, might have served me better looking at the PDF of it.  (it includes Kihon and how to hold the thing*)
> 
> Anyway, i just cant comprehend how to withdraw the staff from the first strike to the head.  From memory i belive its a thrust, but i have a equal belief its a over the head strike.   (would need to drudge up the manual and cant find a PDF of it in english)       Fricition is just the issue as far as i recall.   (granted its not with a jo)
> 
> ...



ZNKR (AJKF) Jodo will differ slightly from the shindo muso ryu original


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## Deleted member 39746 (May 23, 2021)

BrendanF said:


> I'm not a shindo muso ryu guy - they use jo which should be short enough to feel the length during that transition.  The sliding between hands is at the heart of their kihon though.  I study the art SMR branched from; there is some similarity in our bojutsu.  We have a 'warm-up' drill that allows a student to practice that transition.  Then it's just practice.  I have sweaty palms and occasionally struggle, but with practice it becomes pretty straightforward.
> 
> Perhaps these will help



If i recall, 6 of the 12 forms in Jodo come from SMR.   (no idea of the validity of that)      I will see if its a friction issue when i actually get a proper jo as opposed to something to stand in for it.     I have basically used it as a spear too long to comfortable switch from just thrusting with it. 

Jodo is just meant to be a suppliemntal system to Kendo, at least thats what the AJKF lists its reasons for including it as.   (at least including it in their orginsation)


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## JowGaWolf (May 23, 2021)

Rat said:


> I will see if its a friction issue when i actually get a proper jo as opposed to something to stand in for it.


What are you current using as a staff?  Does it have a protective coating on the wood?


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## JowGaWolf (May 23, 2021)

Another good day of staff training.  Hot but good.  I can slowly feel myself getting stronger.   An hour and a half of in the sun hot staff training.  It was a little more than my sone could take but baby steps are fine.  6 months of no training and no stretching is horrible.  I hope it doesn't take long for my flexibility to comeback.  Double training days starts tomorrow. 

I'll be doing P90x warm up exercises in the morning and Kung Fu in the afternoon. I'll do this for 2 weeks so that my body can adjust to early morning and on the 3rd week I'll transition to the full P90x workout.  Saturday and Sunday will be my rest days from Jow Ga kung fu, but I'll still stretch and do Tai Chi on the weekends.


I would be lying if I said I was excited about all of this.  I'm not lol.  The only thing I know is that this is just the Beginner's Hump.  I know things will get better once I get past the idea of it and then just make it part my Everyday thing.  If I can get up early everyday to go work for someone else. I should at least get up everyday and do this little bit.  I'll document my travels on this one as I do not plan to go through this again (starting from the bottom) if I can help it.


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## BrendanF (May 23, 2021)

Rat said:


> If i recall, 6 of the 12 forms in Jodo come from SMR.   (no idea of the validity of that)      I will see if its a friction issue when i actually get a proper jo as opposed to something to stand in for it.     I have basically used it as a spear too long to comfortable switch from just thrusting with it.
> 
> Jodo is just meant to be a suppliemntal system to Kendo, at least thats what the AJKF lists its reasons for including it as.   (at least including it in their orginsation)



They're all lifted directly from the omote set of SMR.  Yeah I guess if you're not using a jo you might struggle.


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