# buy guns and ammo or gold?



## chinto (Feb 24, 2009)

ok folks ... which do you buy? ( in the USA if no where else) 
gold, negotiable, or guns and ammo, a tool for defense?  

you tell me which you would suggest? and why?


----------



## KenpoTex (Feb 24, 2009)

admitting to stockpiling either probably wouldn't be very smart...

that said, anything that will retain its value (or increase in value) and be negotiable sounds like a prudent investment.


----------



## grydth (Feb 24, 2009)

I believe Machiavelli, given the choice between iron and gold, said to buy iron.....use it to forge weapons with which to take others' gold.

Today, that is a sound point with respect to having tempting wealth which you cannot defend. 

However having guns only commits you to that violent course, or at least narrows you in your choices.

In these times, it is wise to invest in both.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Feb 24, 2009)

Everyone should be able to defend themselves, and firearms are one way to do that.  I would not recommend it as a means of preserving wealth in the form of a liquid asset, however.

Gold is near historic highs.  Buy low, sell high.  Buying now is not really indicated.

Stocks are near historic lows.  The question is whether or not the economy will ever recover.  If you think America is all over, then don't buy stocks.  If you think America will recover in time, then stocks look very attractive, don't they?


----------



## searcher (Feb 24, 2009)

A good bow and some high quality arrows.    In an economic collapse, nobody is going to care about gold and guns will eventually run out of ammo(since none will be produced).     You will need soemthing that can bring home food.


I like to invest in something that will feed my family.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Feb 24, 2009)

searcher said:


> guns will eventually run out of ammo(since none will be produced).



I can make ammo.


----------



## elder999 (Feb 24, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I can make ammo.


 
Me too, and I grow food.

You can never have "enough" bullets on hand, though. 

Buy-and some of you will know I'm serious by how much I *hate* them-_Ford_ stock. :barf:

Seriously. 

And, no surprise here, buy real estate if you can-lots of really good deals on foreclosures, if you can pay cash, and have the will to sit on it....

And I wouldn't buy much more than 10 oz. of gold, in half-ounce or quarter-ounce coins, for bartering purposes. (Though Bill is right-the time to buy gold was months ago......)


----------



## lklawson (Feb 24, 2009)

chinto said:


> ok folks ... which do you buy? ( in the USA if no where else)
> gold, negotiable, or guns and ammo, a tool for defense?
> 
> you tell me which you would suggest? and why?


What are you wanting to do with it?

If it's an "Investment" then I agree with Bill, you missed your chance to buy gold.  If it's an "Investment" then you don't need to buy ammo unless it's execptionally rare and unlikely to be reloaded or remanufactured (think Gyrojet rounds or .577 Howdah).  If it's an "Investment" then you want to buy Investment grade firearms.  Yes, all firearms generally increase in value and you never know when you're gonna buy a cheap beater that turns into gold (like the Norinco Makarov which has appreciated more than average for firearms).

If you are envisioning a sort of Mad Max scenario where you need to have lots of working firearms and ammo to protect your victory garden and hand pumped water well, then I'd say don't worry about it.  We have several examples of severe economic colapse and in those cases long term roving hords of starving gangs are not usually an issue.  The worst example seems to come from the Sudan where the "looters" were tacitly accepted, even supported, by the government and quasi governmental bodies.  I don't think that this is going to be an issue with most developed nations as we see examples in pre-WWII Germany and post-Cold War Soviet Union.

If you're in the U.S. then you are probably not going to see the same sort of economic upset.  Most of the issues in the Weirmar depression for joe sixpack were related to food and housing.  Same with 80's depression Soviets.  There were some isolated "food rioting" but nothing appocolyptic.  The U.S., however, is a net food exporter.  Heck, last I checked, we were still paying some farmers to actually NOT FARM in order to prop up the prices.  Further, the U.S. actually has plenty of housing, the problems there are related to OVER housing, actually.  If the economic woes get as bad as some are predicting, it will be harsh for a lot of folks in the U.S., but food and housing will still be available in roughly the same proportions.  New cars and X-Boxes and stuff are what people will have to do without.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## lklawson (Feb 24, 2009)

searcher said:


> A good bow and some high quality arrows. In an economic collapse, nobody is going to care about gold and guns will eventually run out of ammo(since none will be produced). You will need soemthing that can bring home food.


In an economic collapse, the vast majority of people won't be anywhere that they can hunt, unless you're thinking of Long Pig.  Even in the severe economic collapse of the Weimar and Soviets, ammunition was still readily available in the common calibers.  Paper money for them was often better used as toilet paper but hard assets were imediately tradable and held value.  And in the Great Depression, this was true of the U.S., which was impacted less severely than most of the rest of the Depression affected world.  The Grapes of 
Wrath chronicled a rather small sub-set.  MOST people in the U.S. during this time did not starve.  Yes there were Soup Kitchens.  Yes, people would make "Ketchup Soup."  Yes, it was hard for a lot of families.  However, there wasn't a mass breakdown of society, collapse of the government, or widespread and long term looting and rioting.




> I like to invest in something that will feed my family.


Hard assets.  Maybe invest in the "Military Industrial Complex."  Stock in companies building Tanks and Jets are likely to impove.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## searcher (Feb 24, 2009)

lklawson said:


> In an economic collapse, the vast majority of people won't be anywhere that they can hunt, unless you're thinking of Long Pig.


 

The fact that many of them won't be able to hunt is their problem.



As far as having ammo and making more. I have a good deal of it and I am all for getting more. Plus I like having the ability to make more, but eventually the raw pieces will run out as well.

Being able to hunt, trap, and fish will be the piece that keeps my family going strong.


To quote Hank Jr., "I can skin a buck andrun a trot line and a country boy can survive."    That entire song describes my family and where I grew up.


----------



## CoryKS (Feb 24, 2009)

The thing about being a survivalist kook and stockpiling gold, guns, and food is that theres no downside. Even if youre wrong, youve still got gold, guns, and food.
 W.C. Versone


----------



## lklawson (Feb 24, 2009)

searcher said:


> The fact that many of them won't be able to hunt is their problem.


What I'm saying is that telling people that it's their fault for not being where they can hunt just isn't helpful advice.



> As far as having ammo and making more. I have a good deal of it and I am all for getting more. Plus I like having the ability to make more, but eventually the raw pieces will run out as well.


Not to worry.  Past examples of total economic colapse shows us that industrial production doesn't halt.



> Being able to hunt, trap, and fish will be the piece that keeps my family going strong.


Sure.  If you're in the 1 out of 4 or so of the U.S. population that lives where they can hunt and trap (less, really).  For the rest of us, we might want to consider some other alternative.  ;-)

I'm not trying to start a fight here, I'm just saying that for a minimum of 75% of the U.S. the advice is not helpful and telling them that they should simply move to where they could hunt isn't helpful either.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## elder999 (Feb 24, 2009)

lklawson said:


> What I'm saying is that telling people that it's their fault for not being where they can hunt just isn't helpful advice.


 

Almost every city I've ever been in has squirrels and rabbits in the parks, raccoons, and stray dogs and cats, and plenty of rats. All edible, and mostly delicious......

.....there are lots of hunting options,almost  everywhere, excluding _Long Pork._ 

Vegetarianism is a pretty good option as well-if you store some beans and rice and a few other things, you can be set for a good long time, food wise.....


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Feb 24, 2009)

I deal with reality and bet the short odds with regards to personal finances, and long term recovery for investments.

I have lived through several 'survivalist' or 'doomsday' scenarios, starting from the age of backyard bomb shelters when I was a kid (remember 'duck and cover' to protect us from nuclear attack?) to the Gas Crisis, to the Y2K freakout, and so on.

I'm paranoid - but my wife tells me that in her opinion, I'm paranoid in a healthy and justified way.  We got out of stocks in February of last year and our 401(k) has not dropped a bit - in fact, we're making money.  Now I'm thinking about dipping a toe back in.  I predicted the 911 attacks.  I told my wife they were coming, and what our response to it would be.  Scared the pudding out of her when it happened just like I said it would.

About the only thing I do that my wife thinks is 'weird' is taking the light bulbs out of the overhead dome lights in my car.  I hate being lit up when I open a car door at night.  I know where everything is, and no one else needs to.  I hate being a silhouette.

It is never a bad idea to prepare for emergencies - no matter their source.

I have a central, monitored alarm system on my house.  I have trained dogs guarding my property.  My wife and I are well-armed, trained, and keep loaded guns in various locations in our house.

We have water stockpiled.  We have emergency radios, AM and shortwave.  We have blankets and cold-weather gear in both cars at all times.  We have old cell phones that no longer have service contracts but will suffice for 911 calls charged up and ready to go.  We have a gun safe. We have 'safe locations' (a toned-down 'panic room') in our home.  We have alternate means of leaving our house.

We know how to clear our house room by room and practice it.  We know how to recognize each other in an emergency like a home invasion.  We know who goes for her mom, who goes for the pets, depending on priorities and threat level.  We have fire extinguishers, fire blankets, and sand.

We have maps with predesigned routes to rally points in both vehicles.  If necessary, we can move independently from one state to another and meet up with each other without being in contact with each other during that time.  That's even more important now, since I 'really' live in North Carolina, but work and live in an apartment in Detroit for the last couple years.

We established all this a long time before the current economic situation.  Hurricanes, earthquakes, and all sorts of natural disasters could just as easily require evacuation, and terrorist attack is always a real possibility.

*What I do not have* is a bomb shelter, a safe room, gas masks, or a stockpile of gold bullion.  Those are 'long odds' that I don't bet.  Could happen, and if so, I might be hosed, but I've deemed them unrealistic at the present time, so I don't waste time on them.

Consider that the worst economic times this country has faced, the majority of people were still employed.  People survived.  Civil order did not break down.  We got through it.

I do not anticipate that this time will be that much different.

How's that for paranoid?  I'm a serious nut-job by some standards of paranoia - and I'm not that worried about the current situation.

_"There's got to be a morning after."_


----------



## lklawson (Feb 24, 2009)

elder999 said:


> Almost every city I've ever been in has squirrels and rabbits in the parks, raccoons, and stray dogs and cats, and plenty of rats. All edible, and mostly delicious......


There aren't enough pigeons and squirels in the city to feed the population of the city for one day.



> Vegetarianism is a pretty good option as well-if you store some beans and rice and a few other things, you can be set for a good long time, food wise.....


Sure, having 300 pounds of dried beans and rice bought at current prices makes a good hedge against starvation. No argument there. My argument is, based on numerous past economic colapses, I don't think it's nessasary for most folks. To be honest, I think it'd be a waste of money. Folks who are likely to suffer from severe food shortages are also likely to have their storage location foreclosed on.

Keeping some food and water stored back in case of emergencies such as natural disasster, which could interupt food distribution for as much as a month in worst case (NO/Kitrina) may be a good idea, but hedging several hundred pounds of dried goods against economic colapse isn't going to get you where you need to be for most folks.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## elder999 (Feb 24, 2009)

lklawson said:


> There aren't enough pigeons and squirels in the city to feed the population of the city for one day.



Who needs to feed "the population of the city?" I just need to feed me and my family.....of course, I'm not in a city.....:lol:


----------



## searcher (Feb 24, 2009)

All I am trying to say is that if it hits the fan, you are better off where I am then in a major city.

And it would not really mater if they had a place to hunt.   Most city dwellers have no idea how to survive without a supermarket.


----------



## Gordon Nore (Feb 24, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> It is never a bad idea to prepare for emergencies - no matter their source.
> 
> I have a central, monitored alarm system on my house. I have trained dogs guarding my property. My wife and I are well-armed, trained, and keep loaded guns in various locations in our house.
> 
> We have water stockpiled. We have emergency radios, AM and shortwave. We have blankets and cold-weather gear in both cars at all times. We have old cell phones that no longer have service contracts but will suffice for 911 calls charged up and ready to go. We have a gun safe. We have 'safe locations' (a toned-down 'panic room') in our home. We have alternate means of leaving our house.



If things really go to shart, I can get together enough gasoline to drive to Bill's house, so I guess I'm OK.


----------



## Carol (Feb 24, 2009)

My father had a stroke right before I graduated from college.  (My best friend and I sent him a card joking that he must have had the stroke in shock that I actually finished...lol).  He survived the stroke but...needed a lot of care, which took a lot of the family's money and resources until he mercifully passed away in 2001.  This basically forced me to go through my 20s and 30s with the understanding that I don't have the fallback plan that a lot of my friends have.  I can't feasibly move in with my parents again if things go wrong.  

When I looked at what I had to do to survive...the answer was education.  I have a degree, but a degree isn't always enough.  So, I went back to school to learn new things.  It paid off.  I took a hiatus for several years from continuing ed but now I'm back in school again.  Within every crisis there is opportunity.  I do not want a crisis to happen, but I do want to make sure that I am doing everything I can to make sure that I am still employed/employable, even with a lot of uncertainty ahead.

My "stockpile" is in UMass credits.  Although...I'm certainly in support of continuing my MA training to make sure I live long enough to get the benefits of my coursework.


----------



## elder999 (Feb 24, 2009)

Carol Kaur said:


> My father had a stroke right before I graduated from college.


 
Sorry you had to go through that....



Carol Kaur said:


> My "stockpile" is in UMass credits.


 
Any of them _medical??_


----------



## Carol (Feb 24, 2009)

elder999 said:


> Sorry you had to go through that....



Thanks very much. :asian: 



> Any of them _medical??_



Uhhhh...kinda...     To do anything worth doing in the medical field requires a bunch of prerequisites...   

Career change at 40-something.  More debt!  Wheee.....


----------



## grydth (Feb 24, 2009)

Gordon Nore said:


> If things really go to shart, I can get together enough gasoline to drive to Bill's house, so I guess I'm OK.



We could meet you there.... but we should have an agreement on how to prepare and cook Bill ahead of time. I think he's spicy enough as it is, so perhaps a plain rotisserie approach should suffice. Tenderizer seems called for. 

Seems from the photo that we'd get several meals, even with both our clans. I met my wife in Toronto, so we'd be happy to share with you guys! Let's pray for entropy!


----------



## Deaf Smith (Feb 24, 2009)

During the last depression the government made a law and TOOK ALL THE GOLD. If you had any and they found out, off to jail you went. Ain't the goverment sweet?

Deaf


----------



## elder999 (Feb 24, 2009)

Carol Kaur said:


> Uhhhh...kinda...  To do anything worth doing in the medical field requires a bunch of prerequisites...  .


 
Think nursing, or EMT, or both. You'll find that you've met most of the prereq's for the former, and there often aren't _any_ for the latter...........as long as we're amassing knowledge as a commodity, it ought to be knowledge that one can trade upon.....(an herbalism course wouldn't hurt, either....) :wink:


----------



## Carol (Feb 24, 2009)

I'd rather think radiopharmacy.


----------



## Gordon Nore (Feb 24, 2009)

grydth said:


> We could meet you there.... but we should have an agreement on how to prepare and cook Bill ahead of time. I think he's spicy enough as it is, so perhaps a plain rotisserie approach should suffice. Tenderizer seems called for.
> 
> Seems from the photo that we'd get several meals, even with both our clans. I met my wife in Toronto, so we'd be happy to share with you guys! Let's pray for entropy!



It's not polite to cook the host.


----------



## grydth (Feb 24, 2009)

I consider it as sampling the local cuisine......

You mean your original post was *not *an open invite to post apocalyptic cannibalism?? Ooops, sorry.......:angel:


----------



## Gordon Nore (Feb 24, 2009)

grydth said:


> I consider it as sampling the local cuisine......
> 
> You mean your original post was *not *an open invite to post apocalyptic cannibalism?? Ooops, sorry.......:angel:



Naw. I'm just seriously screwed when the apocalypse comes.


----------



## grydth (Feb 24, 2009)

There's no sense compounding anarchy with bad nourishment, though...:uhohh:


----------



## Carol (Feb 24, 2009)

Ya know, you guys are welcome over here to the Live Free Or Die state.  We got some good huntin', good fishin', and nothing bad really happens here...well...except ice storms but its nothing you guys haven't seen before.


----------



## searcher (Feb 24, 2009)

Carol Kaur said:


> Ya know, you guys are welcome over here to the Live Free Or Die state. We got some good huntin', good fishin', and nothing bad really happens here...well...except ice storms but its nothing you guys haven't seen before.


 

Sounds good, but it will be to far to travel if all goes to pieces.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Feb 24, 2009)

grydth said:


> We could meet you there.... but we should have an agreement on how to prepare and cook Bill ahead of time. I think he's spicy enough as it is, so perhaps a plain rotisserie approach should suffice. Tenderizer seems called for.
> 
> Seems from the photo that we'd get several meals, even with both our clans. I met my wife in Toronto, so we'd be happy to share with you guys! Let's pray for entropy!



Dude!  Come get ya some! ;-)


----------



## grydth (Feb 24, 2009)

The dog in the picture has the same resigned, "My Master is nuts" look that our dog Ginger has....


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Feb 24, 2009)

grydth said:


> The dog in the picture has the same resigned, "My Master is nuts" look that our dog Ginger has....



Well, you read the t-shirt, right?  Milo did, too.  And Molly.  They're good dogs.


----------



## lklawson (Feb 24, 2009)

searcher said:


> All I am trying to say is that if it hits the fan, you are better off where I am then in a major city.
> 
> And it would not really mater if they had a place to hunt.   Most city dwellers have no idea how to survive without a supermarket.


I don't disagree.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## chinto (Feb 25, 2009)

well i thought the question would be interesting, and fun to see what people thought.  land is good if you can keep it.. if not else you can grow a carrot on it.  .. weapons and ammo are good if it gets nasty... ask the folks in LA when the riots happened last time, and they had no way to defend themselves.  gold is good because an ounce of gold buys in value today what it basically bought clear back in say 1850... it keeps its value basically constant.. and personally i think obama and the idiots in congress are going to do a wiemar republic at this rate with the US curancy at this rate.  

but I find the reasons and responses very interesting ( wearing an old coal skuttle helmet perhaps like on laugh in... ) :jediduel:


----------



## grydth (Feb 25, 2009)

That is perhaps the true value of your thread.... to illustrate that in emergency planning, it is not "either/or" but rather "and". 

There are many measures one should consider taking across a wide spectrum. Just as a fighter with only one strong technique is vulnerable, so too is a person with only gold......

The best back up is a sense of humor. I keep mine on a shelf in my library, next to the latest edition of "To Serve Man".


----------

