# Chain Punch



## Transk53 (Dec 25, 2014)

Simply put, where did the chain punch come from. Always seemed to be a add on. To me, it just didn't fit philosophy wise. Curious as what form or technique it derives from?


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## seasoned (Dec 25, 2014)

This is a great question. Although I don't have the answer I hope someone responses back.


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## LFJ (Dec 25, 2014)

Many things simply come from people misinterpreting the forms, applying literal thinking, and not understanding the system as a whole; the strategy and tactics. A lot more than chain punching leaves me bewildered with many interpretations of Wing Chun.


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## Transk53 (Dec 25, 2014)

Maybe so, that would be you're personal view. The system is sound, but chain punching would be right cross or straight. Does fit to me, that is what I am asking


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## Kwan Sau (Dec 25, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> Curious as what form or technique it derives from?



The idea of 'chained' strikes is found throughout the forms. It doesn't necessarily have to be a chain 'punch'. 
That being said...chain punching isn't the best strategy, regardless of how the movies make it out to be. It is easily dealt with. Just my .02


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## Transk53 (Dec 25, 2014)

Kwan Sau said:


> The idea of 'chained' strikes is found throughout the forms. It doesn't necessarily have to be a chain 'punch'.
> That being said...chain punching isn't the best strategy, regardless of how the movies make it out to be. It is easily dealt with. Just my .02



Thanks


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## KPM (Dec 25, 2014)

The "chain punch" is at the very end of the SLT form in most Ip Man versions I've seen.  Its at the end of the TWC SNT form as well.


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## yak sao (Dec 25, 2014)

I had posted this on my group's facebook page some time back:

_One criticism I hear about WT is that all we do is chain punch.
The chainpunch is taught right away to the new WT student to give them an effective weapon to have in their arsenal from the very beginning of their training.
It teaches the new WT student how to dominate the centerline, keeping your opponent on the defensive, while keeping the WT man protected behind their hands.
So it accomplishes two things: it ingrains an overall strategy of relentless atack in the WT student, while at the same time providing the tactical means to accomplish this.
And because WT's overall goal is simplicity, more often than not, this is how you see a high level WT fighter deal with their opponent, because often, that's all that's needed._


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## Transk53 (Dec 25, 2014)

yak sao said:


> I had posted this on my group's facebook page some time back:
> 
> _One criticism I hear about WT is that all we do is chain punch.
> The chainpunch is taught right away to the new WT student to give them an effective weapon to have in their arsenal from the very beginning of their training.
> ...



Thanks. Me just thinking in application, it would be unlikely that a fluid target could get overwhelmed by chain punching.


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## geezer (Dec 25, 2014)

An interesting question. The way you phrase it implies that you are relatively certain that the concept of _chain punching _is not a good fit with WC theory. I'd have to disagree. LFJ pointed out that people have a tendency to look at sequences from the forms too literally. That may be the problem. Trying to understand each section of the forms in terms of a specific _application_ can be very misleading. I understand this tendency, since many of us explain the form through applications that happen to look like the movements in the forms. But that's just a starting point. The movements teach bigger things like solid structure, angles, ways of applying and dissolving force,  ...basically broader concepts. And in this context I see _chain punching_ as very fundamental to WC.

To put it another way, don't think of it as chain _ punching _but , as Kwan Sau stated, as chain _striking. _Now in WC, _offense_ is always our best defense -- from the perspective of simplicity and efficiency. Think _Loi lau hoi sung, lat sau jik chung. _If the way is free, we simply strike forward. Even if our opponent seeks to defend or block, a good centerline strike can often wedge through a poor defense and hit hard. What then? a defensive move or combination? No! If our first strike clears the way, we simply strike again, ...and again and again, with each strike further disrupting our opponent's structure and setting up the next with relentless forward pressure.

Only when a strike is obstructed should you have to use a tan, bong, fook, lap, or other parrying/deflecting movement to clear the way. And even so, these are typically applied with simultaneously delivered attacks (tan-da, fook-da, lap da, etc.) so the chain-punching _concept _of continuous attack is still applied.

If you look at chain punching *not* as a mindless forward rush with bicycling vertical fists, but as a way of expressing this concept of continuous attack, even while simultaneously defending, I believe you will see it in a different light.


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## Transk53 (Dec 25, 2014)

geezer said:


> An interesting question. The way you phrase it implies that you are relatively certain that the concept of _chain punching _is not a good fit with WC theory. I'd have to disagree. LFJ pointed out that people have a tendency to look at sequences from the forms too literally. That may be the problem. Trying to understand each section of the forms in terms of a specific _application_ can be very misleading. I understand this tendency, since many of us explain the form through applications that happen to look like the movements in the forms. But that's just a starting point. The movements teach bigger things like solid structure, angles, ways of applying and dissolving force,  ...basically broader concepts. And in this context I see _chain punching_ as very fundamental to WC.
> 
> To put it another way, don't think of it as chain _ punching _but , as Kwan Sau stated, as chain _striking. _Now in WC, _offense_ is always our best defense -- from the perspective of simplicity and efficiency. Think _Loi lau hoi sung, lat sau jik chung. _If the way is free, we simply strike forward. Even if our opponent seeks to defend or block, a good centerline strike can often wedge through a poor defense and hit hard. What then? a defensive move or combination? No! If our first strike clears the way, we simply strike again, ...and again and again, with each strike further disrupting our opponent's structure and setting up the next with relentless forward pressure.
> 
> ...



Okay, I obviously don't have the knowledge then. Thanks for the reply, that is informative. Being a one strike and strike hard type of guy, guess I have a lot to learn


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## geezer (Dec 25, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> Okay, I obviously don't have the knowledge then. Thanks for the reply, that is informative. Being a one strike and strike hard type of guy, guess I have a lot to learn



_Transk _-- check out the following videoclip of Alan Orr explaining how he trains chain punching with his fighters. I find his approach very practical.






@Yak -- Check out Alan's not-so subtle digs at the way a lot of WT guys train chain punching. Punching with the elbow going up and losing energy, not controlling the opponent's body so he can trade punches, and so on. He makes some good points. Unfortunately, you _do_ see all of that in a lot of WT. (_Bad WT_, or WT training viewed out of context, that is. The really good guys don't look like that at all!) Any thoughts?


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## geezer (Dec 25, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> ...Being a one strike and *strike hard type of guy*, guess I have a lot to learn



Absolutely nothing wrong with that.

On the other hand, if you can instantly follow up that hard strike with couple more good shots, even better!


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## Transk53 (Dec 25, 2014)

geezer said:


> _Transk _-- check out the following videoclip of Alan Orr explaining how he trains chain punching with his fighters. I find his approach very practical.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks  I would not ask for too many thoughts though, probably end in the usual argument.


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## geezer (Dec 25, 2014)

Argument? No that's for those _other_ forums. We, the superior individuals of the _Martialtalk_ persuasion have enlightened and informative _discussions! _


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## Transk53 (Dec 25, 2014)

geezer said:


> Argument? No that's for those _other_ forums. We, the superior individuals of the _Martialtalk_ persuasion have enlightened and informative _discussions! _



LOL, sure  I look forward to them then.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 25, 2014)

You may use "double spears" strategy to deal with "double straight line punches" such as jab and cross. This way, you can protect your center from outside in.






This strategy came from the ancient Chinese spear technique. When your opponent uses spear to stab you, you use "clockwise circle" or "counter-clockwise circle" to deflect it, you then move in after that. If you treat each of your arms as a spear, you have "double spears".


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## Argus (Dec 25, 2014)

Isn't chain punching/striking just a misconception -- by which, I mean, making a "technique" out of something that isn't a technique to begin with?

For as long as the centerline is open, we strike. This is the principle of _lat sao jik chung_. If, after striking the first time, the center remains open, you should continue striking. That's not a technique. That's just common sense. But to see someone launching a continuous barrage of strikes into an opponent that remains open, and then abstract that as some kind of "chain ___" technique is to miss the point in the first place. You can't suppose that you can chain any number of techniques; all you can do is attack and follow the flow while utilizing the core principles of the system; which is to control the centerline, and attack instinctively when it is open. If that happens to be a chain of punches or strikes, then "chain punching" was the result, but not the source.


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## Transk53 (Dec 25, 2014)

I don't understand that too much?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 25, 2014)

IMO, a jab, cross, jab, cross, ... pattern may be too predictable. A

- jab, cross, hook, hook, or
- jab, cross, hook, uppercut, or
- ...

may be less predictable. But I don't know it can be called as "chain punches" any more.

It's true that the shortest distance between 2 points is the straight line. But in combat strategy, sometime you may have to take the longer route in order to "surprise" your opponent. You may open your center-line when you use hook, hook combo, but if you are good at "double spears" strategy, you can still protect your center from outside in if needed.


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## Danny T (Dec 25, 2014)

Chain punching is a very important aspect of WC training as well as in application. Within that chain punching has several purposes.

1.  In training one punches in the very specific cycling action on the centerline to be exercised for learning to punch on the line while cycling. This strengths the shoulders, elbows, and wrists as the practitioner learns to relax while punching.

2.  In partner drills by chain punching on the center line the partner learns to defend the line by being on the centerline and by not chasing hands. They learn to simply go to the centerline regardless if attacking or defending.

3.  Once the centerline is understood and the ability to maintain it one learns to follow up with the opposite arm immediately if the first arm is not in control of the line. If in control then the following arm continues on into a strike. If it is unable to due to being blocked or impeded then the chain punching brings the opposite arm into play immediately for trapping, removing the obstacle, or maybe to just create a response.

4.  To strike in combinations stringing arm movement together for attacking or counter-attacking.
There are other reasons but these should give food for thought.

Timing, range, cadence will change the punching combination tactics.


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## geezer (Dec 25, 2014)

Argus said:


> Isn't chain punching/striking just a misconception -- by which, I mean, making a "technique" out of something that isn't a technique to begin with?
> 
> ... as the centerline is open, we strike. This is the principle of _lat sao jik chung_. If, after striking the first time, the center remains open, you should continue striking. That's not a technique. That's just common sense.
> 
> ...



I agree completely.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 25, 2014)

To me, the "chain punches" is like the "chain kicks - one front kick after another front kick (linear)". If you do it over and over, your opponent may be able to detect your pattern and take advantage on it. But if you can mix it with your "roundhouse kicks (circular)", you may have better result.


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## geezer (Dec 25, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You may use "double spears" strategy to deal with "double straight line punches" such as jab and cross. This way, you can protect your center from outside in.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



These circular movements look a bit large and cumbersome to be practical against short fast "chain punches", or a boxer's jabs for that matter --unless you are already in contact with an opponent's arms or "bridges". In that case you are in more of a "chi-sau" like situation. Then indeed WC uses such circles, only smaller, to gain the inside line. In WC such movements are _huen-sau_ (circle-hand) or _kau sau _(plucking hand).

The comparison to the spear is very apt and is similarly used in the WC _luk dim boon kwun fa_ or long-pole technique which has roots in Chinese spear movements.


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## Vajramusti (Dec 25, 2014)

On The so called wing chun  chain punch. It is not an add on- but imo it has been corrupted in it's meaning. For development I might have a hundred punches. In application I might need just 3 well timed punches .For development I am punching alone  so at the end my whole arm is straight. In application I will punch through an opponent for explosiveness and my arm will be bent. And the fist coming back is as important as the fist going out
increasing the explosiveness of the punch. It takes a while to learn to punch well keeping a square body with the upper and lower body coordinated throughout the gravitational path specially at the dan tien. The wing chun punch is NOT a western boxing punch where the shoulders are loaded
The internal aspect of the punch includes the focused mind and intent, minimal tension in muscles and the skeletal structure  acting as one coordinated unit..In a flash the whole body will be the punch without losing balance and being able to flow into other movements.
I am describing an aspect of what I do without arguing with snake body, side body, WT or TWC or other  folks. They might have things that work for them.


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## Buka (Dec 25, 2014)

geezer said:


> _Transk _-- check out the following videoclip of Alan Orr explaining how he trains chain punching with his fighters. I find his approach very practical.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That was really good, it was helpful to me. I understood some things I had thought about from times past. I'm a visual learner. Once in a while a light bulb goes on.


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## yak sao (Dec 25, 2014)

Vajramusti said:


> ...In a flash the whole body will be the punch without losing balance and being able to flow into other movements.



I think that is the big mistake that is made when applying the punches of WC. Most want to stay at a boxing range and hit only with their arms...this can be very easily dealt with by an opponent.
When performed properly, you are hitting with your whole body...the fist is just the delivery system....this is not so easy for an opponent to deal with.


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## KPM (Dec 26, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You may use "double spears" strategy to deal with "double straight line punches" such as jab and cross. This way, you can protect your center from outside in.



Hey John!  Interesting!  In the 52 Blocks system your "double spears" is one of the "Blocks" referred to as "Uptown."  ;-)


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## tkdwarrior (Dec 26, 2014)

geezer said:


> _Transk _-- check out the following videoclip of Alan Orr explaining how he trains chain punching with his fighters. I find his approach very practical.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That is how I envision chain punching to be, linking your offense to your defense.


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## yak sao (Dec 26, 2014)

tkdwarrior said:


> That is how I envision chain punching to be, linking your offense to your defense.




This is how every attack should be done, regardless of what it is. While chain punching can be relentless, they shouldn't be mindless. In other words, we don't just flip on a switch and become Rock 'em Sock 'em robots...throwing punches in a flurry and hoping to God one of them finally gets through and we hit him more than he hits us.

The arms should develop springiness through chi sau so that the fists aren't simply clubs on the ends of battering rams. They should fold and bend around whatever obstacle or whatever force is being given to us by the opponent, all the while maintaining structure..be it tan sau, bong sau, jum sau...then, when the opening is presented, the arms lash out. But again, this is very important, as Joy stated above, in a proper punch, it's not just the arms but the whole body.


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## Danny T (Dec 26, 2014)

In our wing chun we don't punch, we crash!


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## geezer (Dec 26, 2014)

yak sao said:


> ...chain punching can be relentless, they shouldn't be mindless. In other words, we don't just flip on a switch and become Rock 'em Sock 'em robots...throwing punches in a flurry and hoping to God one of them finally gets through and we hit him more than he hits us.



How *NOT* to chain punch:






On the plus side, these guys _do_ keep their elbows low, fists vertical and a steady upright stance. Not so good at covering centerline, but if one gets an angle on the other, it's all over.

P.S. We've got one of these games and in my house _I rule! _


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## Thunder Foot (Dec 26, 2014)

Another beneficial aspect of chain punching, in addition to many of the ones mentioned is the coordination of both hands. Not only maintaining centerline, but also training this principle in terms of a push and pull force which can amplify our techs. If we look closely enough, it has potential to be an integral part of all our Wing Chun techniques.


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## Jake104 (Dec 26, 2014)

[QUOTE="yak sao, post: 1678175, member: 17858"*]I think that is the big mistake that is made when applying the punches of WC. Most want to stay at a boxing range and hit only with their arms...*this can be very easily dealt with by an opponent.
When performed properly, you are hitting with your whole body...the fist is just the delivery system....this is not so easy for an opponent to deal with.[/QUOTE]


This is why you see boxing dominating novice Wing Cun guys so often. It's hard to get past that range without eating a few... Chain punching for me is also the linking of punches. Not the bicycle punching you often see. It can be any number of punches. It can be performed at different levels, from high to low, with even a circular huen choi thrown in here and there.


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## Jake104 (Dec 26, 2014)

geezer said:


> How *NOT* to chain punch:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I miss those kind of toys. You should invite me over to " train" sometime? Hint hint! Haha!


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## Transk53 (Dec 26, 2014)

Jake104 said:


> I miss those kind of toys. You should invite me over to " train" sometime? Hint hint! Haha!



Yeah me too


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## Transk53 (Dec 28, 2014)

Danny T said:


> Chain punching is a very important aspect of WC training as well as in application. Within that chain punching has several purposes.
> 
> 1.  In training one punches in the very specific cycling action on the centerline to be exercised for learning to punch on the line while cycling. This strengths the shoulders, elbows, and wrists as the practitioner learns to relax while punching.
> 
> ...



Sweet reply. Thanks


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## Transk53 (Dec 28, 2014)

Thunder Foot said:


> Another beneficial aspect of chain punching, in addition to many of the ones mentioned is the coordination of both hands. Not only maintaining centerline, but also training this principle in terms of a push and pull force which can amplify our techs. If we look closely enough, it has potential to be an integral part of all our Wing Chun techniques.



Push/pull force. Interesting, I would have leaned towards a lot more push. So the two start to work in tandem?


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## Kwan Sau (Dec 28, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> Push/pull force. Interesting, I would have leaned towards a lot more push. So the two start to work in tandem?



Simple physics.


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## yak sao (Dec 28, 2014)

When I chain punch, I'm not pulling my other hand back, rather I'm allowing my triceps to relax which causes my fist to retract to the area of the elbow of the other arm.
Think of a light switch on a wall...instead of clicking the triceps on, then off again when you pull the arm back, think of a dimmer switch. The punch goes out, the switch is all the way on, when the punch relaxes, the tricep is being "dimmed" but is still "on".
This gives springiness and constant forward force to the arm even in retraction.
If you pull the arm back, you are activating the biceps. A strong opponent can use that to his advantage and crash through by adding to your pulling motion.


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## Transk53 (Dec 28, 2014)

Jake104 said:


> yak sao said:
> 
> 
> > *I think that is the big mistake that is made when applying the punches of WC. Most want to stay at a boxing range and hit only with their arms...*this can be very easily dealt with by an opponent.
> ...



I take you mean the circular swingers with no particular accuracy. Larger males tend to use it. Have you tried chain punching while targeting an opponent downwards. IE, they could be crouching down for example?


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## Transk53 (Dec 28, 2014)

yak sao said:


> When I chain punch, I'm not pulling my other hand back, rather I'm allowing my triceps to relax which causes my fist to retract to the area of the elbow of the other arm.
> Think of a light switch on a wall...instead of clicking the triceps on, then off again when you pull the arm back, think of a dimmer switch. The punch goes out, the switch is all the way on, when the punch relaxes, the tricep is being "dimmed" but is still "on".
> This gives springiness and constant forward force to the arm even in retraction.
> If you pull the arm back, you are activating the biceps. A strong opponent can use that to his advantage and crash through by adding to your pulling motion.



Sweet. Yeah that is understandable. Simple physics as Kwan Sau as stated then. Thanks


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## yak sao (Dec 28, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> I take you mean the circular swingers with no particular accuracy. Larger males tend to use it. Have you tried chain punching while targeting an opponent downwards. IE, they could be crouching down for example?



Even with perfect accuracy and trajectory, if you stay at boxing range several things are happening...none of them good.
You are allowing your arms to extend, which causes you to lose your optimal arm angle. This allows your opponent to grab your arms, apply arm locks, or shoot in under your arms.
You are trading punches with them...if he's a boxer, he will be much better at this than you are.

Better then to close the distance. This keeps your arms bent at the proper angle of  135 degrees.  He will have much more trouble trying to apply an arm lock, shooting under becomes more problematic for him as your elbows are lower.
By moving in, you are stepping in with your entire mass behind the punch, so now you are no longer trading punches with him. Instead, he is rocked back on his heels and off balance.
You still extend your punch, but now you are extending through him instead of to him. As your punch knocks him back you don't give him the luxury of increasing the distance. You stay with him and continue the barrage of attacks.


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## yak sao (Dec 28, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> Have you tried chain punching while targeting an opponent downwards. IE, they could be crouching down for example?



Against someone who is crouching down, or trying to shoot in, don't hit with your fists. At this angle you don't have as much stopping power, plus they're presenting less target area...you definitely don't want to pound the top of their head with your fists.
You can still punch though. Applying the same arm mechanics of heavy elbow, optimal angle, etc. you now hit with the blade of the forearm as it is applied in a punching type motion. Side of the neck, jaw, collar bones are very good target options for this.


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## Transk53 (Dec 28, 2014)

yak sao said:


> Even with perfect accuracy and trajectory, if you stay at boxing range several things are happening...none of them good.
> You are allowing your arms to extend, which causes you to lose your optimal arm angle. This allows your opponent to grab your arms, apply arm locks, or shoot in under your arms.
> You are trading punches with them...if he's a boxer, he will be much better at this than you are.
> 
> ...



Thanks. Boxing and trading punches I have no problem with. As an attack method, yes that is like I kind of imagined, but the first time around I saw no sparring and very little pad work done. In terms of a percentage towards damage, the head would seem would seem obvious, but I am guessing the torso would be preferable to get out of the way, as opposed to going for a knockout.


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## Transk53 (Dec 28, 2014)

yak sao said:


> Against someone who is crouching down, or trying to shoot in, don't hit with your fists. At this angle you don't have as much stopping power, plus they're presenting less target area...you definitely don't want to pound the top of their head with your fists.
> You can still punch though. Applying the same arm mechanics of heavy elbow, optimal angle, etc. you now hit with the *blade of the forearm* as it is applied in a punching type motion. Side of the neck, jaw, collar bones are very good target options for this.



Right okay. I keep coming up actual blades on Google. So you're shooting down, contact with the usual surface area for an elbow strike, or more towards to hand in surface area?


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## Danny T (Dec 28, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> Right okay. I keep coming up actual blades on Google. So you're shooting down, contact with the usual surface area for an elbow strike, or more towards to hand in surface area?



Think Jop or Jum Sao
We are striking not just punching. Strikes can be with any part of the body.
In this case you are striking with the forearms vs fists.


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## Transk53 (Dec 28, 2014)

Danny T said:


> Think Jop or Jum Sao
> We are striking not just punching. Strikes can be with any part of the body.
> In this case you are striking with the forearms vs fists.








Sorry, vid quality is a bit poor.


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## Danny T (Dec 28, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> Sorry, vid quality is a bit poor.


Yes.
In training as in the video it is arm on arm. This is a drill. Not application though it could be applied in that manner.


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## Transk53 (Dec 28, 2014)

Danny T said:


> Yes.
> In training as in the video it is arm on arm. This is a drill. Not application though it could be applied in that manner.



Yeah Youtube a bit of a thin stew on this. I'll keep digging though. Mind you as long as the technicians are the same at the school, the ones that I would know, I will ask them to demonstrate.


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## Vajramusti (Dec 28, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> Yeah Youtube a bit of a thin stew on this. I'll keep digging though. Mind you as long as the technicians are the same at the school, the ones that I would know, I will ask them to demonstrate.


------------------------------------------------
FWIW- not a comment on your specific post.
I am bewildered by the number of people  who are
devotees of you tube...in their wing chun journey.


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## Kwan Sau (Dec 28, 2014)

Vajramusti said:


> ------------------------------------------------
> FWIW- not a comment on your specific post.
> I am bewildered by the number of people  who are
> devotees of you tube...in their wing chun journey.




Same here. At first, I thought it was nothing damaging...until the day I had a walk-in off the street to my class. He claimed he was a direct student of Yip Chun. I said "cool, let's see what you got" and proceeded to crash through all of his 'wing chun'. Turns out he meant he was a watcher of Yip Chun youtube videos. Go figure.


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## Vajramusti (Dec 28, 2014)

Vajramusti said:


> ------------------------------------------------
> FWIW- not a comment on your specific post.
> I am bewildered by the number of people  who are
> devotees of you tube...in their wing chun journey.


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## Danny T (Dec 28, 2014)

Vajramusti said:


> ------------------------------------------------
> FWIW- not a comment on your specific post.
> I am bewildered by the number of people  who are
> devotees of you tube...in their wing chun journey.


It's worse than the news media. 
If it is on the news then it is true.
If it is on youtube it is true and is the best example of what is true.


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## yak sao (Dec 28, 2014)

Kwan Sau said:


> Same here. At first, I thought it was nothing damaging...until the day I had a walk-in off the street to my class. He claimed he was a direct student of Yip Chun. I said "cool, let's see what you got" and proceeded to crash through all of his 'wing chun'. Turns out he meant he was a watcher of Yip Chun youtube videos. Go figure.



I had the same thing happen. A guy showed up who had only learned from video. Outwardly, he didn't look all that bad, but there was absolutely no substance to what he was doing.
Kind of reminded me of those old fake movie sets where they just had the fronts of buildings.


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## Transk53 (Dec 28, 2014)

Vajramusti said:


> ------------------------------------------------
> FWIW- not a comment on your specific post.
> I am bewildered by the number of people  who are
> devotees of you tube...in their wing chun journey.



Yes I agree with that on the whole. However, as I am very visual, I learn that way too. Again, I do not take anything on Youtube, Daily Motion etc., at face value. I dig as far as I can.


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## Transk53 (Dec 28, 2014)

Okay. Brfore mu thread dscends into a Youtube bashing sesh, or whatever else. Please understand that it is a visual learning aid, not a learning source. I please ask everyone not to mention it again. I thankyou


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## Jake104 (Dec 28, 2014)

yak sao said:


> Against someone who is crouching down, or trying to shoot in, don't hit with your fists. At this angle you don't have as much stopping power, plus they're presenting less target area...you definitely don't want to pound the top of their head with your fists.
> You can still punch though. Applying the same arm mechanics of heavy elbow, optimal angle, etc. you now hit with the blade of the forearm as it is applied in a punching type motion. Side of the neck, jaw, collar bones are very good target options for this.


I agree with this. Typical shots (chain punching) to the back of head may not work because, there may not be that much time. Especially since good grapplers shoot in quick. Depending on how and what level the shoot comes in, will determine how it's dealt with. If it's really low you may need to drop to your knees with out breaking your spine structure like Sakuraba did in Pride against the Gracie's. If it's at a higher level/clinch. It becomes more of a fight for position to take the opponents balance (chi sao) to set the  strikes up. Alan Orr has a video on this I like.


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## Brummie (Dec 29, 2014)

I like the surprise element of chain punching. Of course, in the unlikely event that you run into a brawl with another WC guy, he's gonna have seen it before, but if it was a typical brawler, he's not gonna expect several punches delivered quickly with a fair generation of power. 
Also in training, I like the expertise it gives to keep the arms supple and to work on and develop fa ging and releasing the energy and the end of the strike.


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## Transk53 (Dec 29, 2014)

Brummie said:


> I like the surprise element of chain punching. Of course, in the unlikely event that you run into a brawl with another WC guy, he's gonna have seen it before, but if it was a typical brawler, he's not gonna expect several punches delivered quickly with a fair generation of power.
> Also in training, I like the expertise it gives to keep the arms supple and to work on and develop fa ging and releasing the energy and the end of the strike.



Yeah. Agree with you. Still struggling a little on the when you would start the chain punch though. No doubt it will enlighten me at some point


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## Thunder Foot (Dec 29, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> Push/pull force. Interesting, I would have leaned towards a lot more push. So the two start to work in tandem?


I've found it in my experience to be a way to further enhance your impact potential. As mentioned before, I learned it as a training tool so once you understand it, you may find ways to express it in other techs. It's present in all the hand forms, more present in Chum Kiu and crucial to a good Biu Jee and BJD in how I was taught.
But don't take my word for it, give it a go yourself. As long as you're receptive to it, I'm sure you'll stumble upon the general mechanics if it's not already present in what you do.


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## Kwan Sau (Dec 30, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> Push/pull force. Interesting, I would have leaned towards a lot more push. So the two start to work in tandem?



Transk53 - a thorough study of yin yang principles and philosophy, as they relate to wing chun, would be worthy of your time. It certainly helped my understanding of the art. Anyway, wanted to leave you with this little gem I read once:
_
"All hand techniques are based only on the well-established principles of "opposite power" and short bridge or long bridge power. ~SiFu Duncan Leung, private disciple of Yip Man.
_
thx


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## Transk53 (Dec 30, 2014)

Kwan Sau said:


> Transk53 - a thorough study of yin yang principles and philosophy, as they relate to wing chun, would be worthy of your time. It certainly helped my understanding of the art. Anyway, wanted to leave you with this little gem I read once:
> _
> "All hand techniques are based only on the well-established principles of "opposite power" and short bridge or long bridge power. ~SiFu Duncan Leung, private disciple of Yip Man.
> _
> thx



Not sure that I fully comprend, but food for thought on the latter. Thanks, I do like history so would be no different in that sense.


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## Kwan Sau (Dec 30, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> Not sure that I fully comprend, but food for thought on the latter. Thanks, I do like history so would be no different in that sense.



Nothing to do with history...everything to do with having an understanding of opposite power, which is seeded in SLT form, and expressed in things like "chain punching/striking" etc...also found in SLT. 
Yin and Yang, push and pull, in and out, up and down, light and dark, male and female, receive and issue, etc. 

No worries. If you don't comprehend now, perhaps you will in the future. Good luck in your training!


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## Transk53 (Dec 30, 2014)

Kwan Sau said:


> Nothing to do with history...everything to do with having an understanding of opposite power, which is seeded in SLT form, and expressed in things like "chain punching/striking" etc...also found in SLT.
> Yin and Yang, push and pull, in and out, up and down, light and dark, male and female, receive and issue, etc.
> 
> No worries. If you don't comprehend now, perhaps you will in the future. Good luck in your training!



As you expanded on it, yes I get that. Of course though, at this point I am not meant to. I don't tend to lean towards a chain punch, so the journey is going to be fun


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## Thunder Foot (Dec 30, 2014)

Think of it not as chain punch, but as chain principle. "Chain" being the word noting that the two arms/fists are linked. Pulling one side back simultaneously pushes the opposite side forward automatically. So rather than simply punching with the intended side for example, simultaneously pull the opposite side back as you push your punch forward. Syncing these together is one example of push/pull force (an expression of Yin/Yang as Kwan Sau mentioned) which in turn begins moving you toward putting your whole body into your techs. Best of luck Transk.


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## Transk53 (Dec 30, 2014)

Thunder Foot said:


> Think of it not as chain punch, but as chain principle. "Chain" being the word noting that the two arms/fists are linked. Pulling one side back simultaneously pushes the opposite side forward automatically. So rather than simply punching with the intended side for example, simultaneously pull the opposite side back as you push your punch forward. Syncing these together is one example of push/pull force (an expression of Yin/Yang as Kwan Sau mentioned) which in turn begins moving you toward putting your whole body into your techs. Best of luck Transk.



Thanks. One week to go


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 30, 2014)

Thunder Foot said:


> Pulling one side back simultaneously pushes the opposite side forward automatically.


When you pull your punch back, should you try to grab something back with your hand at the same time?


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## Transk53 (Dec 30, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When you pull your punch back, should you try to grab something back with your hand at the same time?



No, just the movement for me.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 30, 2014)

Something like this:


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## J W (Dec 30, 2014)

Argus said:


> Isn't chain punching/striking just a misconception -- by which, I mean, making a "technique" out of something that isn't a technique to begin with?
> 
> For as long as the centerline is open, we strike. This is the principle of _lat sao jik chung_. If, after striking the first time, the center remains open, you should continue striking. That's not a technique. That's just common sense. But to see someone launching a continuous barrage of strikes into an opponent that remains open, and then abstract that as some kind of "chain ___" technique is to miss the point in the first place. You can't suppose that you can chain any number of techniques; all you can do is attack and follow the flow while utilizing the core principles of the system; which is to control the centerline, and attack instinctively when it is open. If that happens to be a chain of punches or strikes, then "chain punching" was the result, but not the source.



Well put. Our sifu emphasizes fan sau- always following up one attack with another. Or maybe better put as creating the opening for a follow up, like setting yourself up for the next shot on the pool table. The second punch (and third, etc) in the chain would then just be the fan sau to the first punch. The line has to be open in order to throw that follow up punch, though; otherwise, you'll have to do something else. But if the line is wide open, why wouldn't you follow up your first punch with another... and another, and another?


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## Transk53 (Dec 30, 2014)

Mmm, perhaps now I can see why the Wing Chun forum, is a little combative


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## Thunder Foot (Dec 30, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When you pull your punch back, should you try to grab something back with your hand at the same time?


It is a possible option that is usually dictated by the situation. Grabbing, cutting, jamming, and pressing are just a few of the many ways you can coordinate the opposite side in tandem with the striking hand. There are numerous places to find the push/pull force in our system.


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## ALEX WHITE (Dec 30, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> Simply put, where did the chain punch come from. Always seemed to be a add on. To me, it just didn't fit philosophy wise. Curious as what form or technique it derives from?




It fit's in and make sense due to that women in the 1700's weren't that large or powerful, they were 5'2 where men were 5'4, so not one punch was going to take down opponents, hence the wild chain punching that we do.


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## Kwan Sau (Dec 30, 2014)

ALEX WHITE said:


> ...hence the wild chain punching that we do.



speak for yourself!  hahaha


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