# Students sent home for wearing American Flag



## tshadowchaser (May 12, 2010)

http://www.foxnews.com/search-results/search?q=american+flag%2F+cinco+de+mayo
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/05/06/california-students-sent-home-wearing-flags-cinco-mayo/
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http://www.foxnews.com/search-results/search?q=american+flag%2F+cinco+de+mayo
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/05/06/california-students-sent-home-wearing-flags-cinco-mayo/
Not sure if this should go here or in Horror Stories
As any who have been here since the beginning of this site know I usually stay out of the political arena on the forum However I fell deeply enough about this one to open the discussion.
My personal feeling is that the flag of this country should be allowed to be flown, waved, worn, whatever by any who wish at any time in this country. 
If your from another country or your parents, grandparents, etc. where and you choose to show your heritage and be proud of it while living in this country that is ok, but you are in the United States of America do not deny the people of this country from doing the same.
I served with many who where not of birth in this country but they lived here, went to school here worked here and they served in our military during war time because they where proud to be allowed to be in this country. Many never came back but they gave their lives so that others could have the privilege that they had been given of being in this country. 
If you are an American citizen or claim to be one then you should be proud of the flag that has served as a symbol of this country for so long. You should be proud to wear that symbol to show your support of this country any time you want. You should NOT be punished for wearing it.
I will not get into the other discussion on English language being spoken vs what ever language that will be left for another thread. So to those that post after me in this thread please keep the discussion to the links above and to the opening post.

Sheldon Bedell


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## MBuzzy (May 12, 2010)

Sigh....ok - I HATE to say this....but I can see where the principal is coming from.  I agree with you, no one should EVER be denied the right to display their patriotism and display the flag.  But at the same time, I know kids....blatantly wearing American flags on Cinco De Mayo was PROBABLY just a jab at the mexican kids in the school - why else would they do it?  Do they wear those things all the time?  Why were they hanging around together?  Trying to instigate something?  What is the mexican population at the school like?  Typical of ALL new media, they completely spun this and failed to see another side, playing on the emotions and "patriotism" of Americans.

I don't believe that they were punished, only asked to remove them, to maintain good order and discipline.


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## tshadowchaser (May 12, 2010)

The article says that at least one of them wears shirts with the flag on it often and has many such shirts.
As for the mexicans at that school are they sent home if they wear an Mexican flag  on their shirt on the forth  of july or any other day.  
I am sorry but if they are living here and claim to be born here they should look at themsleves as Americans not Mexicans


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## tshadowchaser (May 12, 2010)

Having started this thread and replied once I am going to try to stay out of the discussion . 
This is one I get riled up on
 Having lived in Ca. and seen 4th generation Americans who could speak little English and who also told me that I was living in Mexico and that they would reclaim Ca. for mexico.  
I'll let everyone else have there say and try to just read what is said


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## tellner (May 12, 2010)

While everyone is enjoying a good bout of outrage, paranoia and risking asphyxiation from wrapping themselves in 
*THE FLAG*
consider world-class curmudgeon PZ Myers. I realize he's a *shudder* scientist. And (Heaven forfend!) a skeptical scientist. But he does add a healthy dose of reason and logic to our Two Minute Hate.


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## girlbug2 (May 12, 2010)

I'm all for consistency in applying rules. If there is to be a rule that one can't wear an American flag t shirt , then this should apply to the flag of any other country as well, no matter what day. So were there kids wearing Mexican flag t shirts, and if so, were they sent home as well?

Understand, that showing patriotism for America is not a put-down of Mexico or any other country. It is always appropriate to show patriotism for one's own country while in one's own country. The school's claim that it is "incendiary" is ridiculous.


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## girlbug2 (May 12, 2010)

tellner said:


> PZ Myers. I realize he's a *shudder* scientist. And (Heaven forfend!) a skeptical scientist. But he does add a healthy dose of reason and logic to our Two Minute Hate.


 
This being my first exposure to PZ Myers, I'm not impressed. Reason and logic--yeah, repeatedly referring to Tea partiers as Teabaggers is the sign of a sophisticated intellect. Not juvenile in the least.


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## Bill Mattocks (May 12, 2010)

tshadowchaser said:


> I am sorry but if they are living here and claim to be born here they should look at themsleves as Americans not Mexicans



Can I wear an Irish flag pin and a "Kiss me, I'm Irish" tee shirt on St Patricks?  Or is that different?


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## punisher73 (May 12, 2010)

I think it's ridiculous.  The clothing is *not *prohibited by the school any other day, but on that particular day it is against the rules?  Stupid.

Now, if there were other details that these students were making inappropriate comments about the shirts to other students about hispanics in a derogatroy way, and making the shirts into a big deal, then this is something different and should have been addressed accordingly.  But, I have not heard anything like this yet.


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## Satt (May 12, 2010)

I'll bet after all the media attention, this school will start up a uniform policy.


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## LuckyKBoxer (May 12, 2010)

MBuzzy said:


> Sigh....ok - I HATE to say this....but I can see where the principal is coming from. I agree with you, no one should EVER be denied the right to display their patriotism and display the flag. But at the same time, I know kids....blatantly wearing American flags on Cinco De Mayo was PROBABLY just a jab at the mexican kids in the school - why else would they do it? Do they wear those things all the time? Why were they hanging around together? Trying to instigate something? What is the mexican population at the school like? Typical of ALL new media, they completely spun this and failed to see another side, playing on the emotions and "patriotism" of Americans.
> 
> I don't believe that they were punished, only asked to remove them, to maintain good order and discipline.


 
absolutely unacceptable.. if the kids wearing American Flags were forced to remove them or go home, so should every single other kid with a Mexican Flag. Its bullcrap. The liberals want to constantly talk about acceptance and allowing people to express their views, unless its an American Flag, where was the liberals teaching acceptance to the mexican kids at this school for all the years leading up to this, where the vice principal felt he had to remove the American Flag kids from the equation?

No its racist plain and simple... a hispanic vice principal removes American kids with American Flags from school so Hispanic kids are not offended?

If it had been reversed then the ACLU and most likely even Obama would have stood up and gone off on a white principal doing this to hispanic kids.

I will bet a million dollars that on the 4th of July some kids will wear flags from other countries to American schools, and I will bet not one is asked to reverse it or remove it.

The vice principal should be fired, and the school should be sued for violating these kids rights, I would even be happy to see it sued so hard that it closes down completely.

This is an outrage.


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## crushing (May 12, 2010)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Can I wear an Irish flag pin and a "Kiss me, I'm Irish" tee shirt on St Patricks? Or is that different?


 
The authorities would approve of that apparel, just don't wear red, white and blue.


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## VegasM4 (May 12, 2010)

This is America..LOVE it or LEAVE It!!!It's a pretty sad day when a principal tells AMERICAN kids that they cannot wear the AMERICAN flag in AMERICA!I could care less what mexican holiday it is.If they are so proud of Mexico and are offended by the great flag of our country then maybe they should go back to wherever they came from.The parents of those kids should sue the school for violation of civil rights.It sounds like alot of people need a geography lesson.

Semper Fi and God Bless America!


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## bushidomartialarts (May 12, 2010)

The thing is, the students weren't sent home for wearing the flag. They were sent home for being asshats.

The flag, like any other symbol, is only as valuable as what it's being used for. In this case, it was being used to pick a fight. Educators are absolutely right to send students home for picking a fight, whether they use abusive language or Christ on a cross to do so. I doubt very much that a student who just happened to be wearing an American Flag pin or shirt on Cinco de Mayo would have been sent home. 

Making this issue about the flag is doing the same thing as those asshat minorities who turn any valid complaint into a race issue. IMO, using my beloved flag for that purpose is as much a desecration of it as burning it or wiping my *** with it.


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## Stac3y (May 12, 2010)

For what it's worth, it really bothers me to see people wear U.S. flags as clothing (not pictures of flags on shirts or whatever, but clothes that look like they are made out of flags). It makes me think they're rubbing the flag on their butts or underarms--seems disrespectful to me. I know that's kind of unreasonable of me, but it squicks me anyway.


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## MJS (May 12, 2010)

Interesting.  Someone got bent because the US flag was displayed on a shirt during Cinco De Mayo.  Interesting, because the US of A seems to be the #1 place that numerous people seem to flock to, both legally and ILLEGALLY!  If its such a bad place, if wearing these shirts was such a bad thing, then get the hell out of the US!


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## MBuzzy (May 12, 2010)

Stac3y said:


> For what it's worth, it really bothers me to see people wear U.S. flags as clothing (not pictures of flags on shirts or whatever, but clothes that look like they are made out of flags). It makes me think they're rubbing the flag on their butts or underarms--seems disrespectful to me. I know that's kind of unreasonable of me, but it squicks me anyway.


 
Actually - you're right...if you want to talk about Patriotism, wearing "flag clothing" to include bandanas, shirts, arm bands, etc are all violations of the US Flag Code.  In fact, the most common offenders that I see of the Flag Code are those who claim to be the most patriotic.  If you were truly patriotic, you would show it the proper respect and adhere to the rules that were created for its use and display.  If you don't know them, EVERY American should read the flag code.

I think that too many people are missing the point here.  These kids were not some noble patriots, they were CHILDREN, trying to start a fight.  Nothing more.  This is not about rights or patriotism, it is about kids, being kids and trying to provoke other kids.  Why on THAT DAY?  Why THAT many kids??  Do any of you know anything about the current tensions and situations at that school?  

I feel that the Vice Principal was acting in the best interest of the student body and possibly protecting the safety of students.

This has nothing to do with anyone liking or disliking the country or violating freedoms....THIS is why biased news agencies are the worst thing that has EVER happened to the US, it ensures that the general public do not use their own brains to form an opinion.  Look at this from an objective point of view.

And if that doesn't work - ask yourself what you'd be saying if a fight had broken out?  If someone had gotten knifed?  What if it was one of the American kids assaulting a Mexican kid?  I know that if one of those five kids (and you're kidding yourself if you think those kids didn't realize this part) got beat up or injured???  The whole country would be calling for the heads of any mexican and screaming that we shouldn't celebrate cinco de mayo.......but they'd be perfectly happy to go to their local mexican restaurant and drink margaritas pretending to know what the holiday is about.  Far too often, we as Americans refuse to respect other cultures and cling to some ideal that "This is America, leave your culture at the door," then do disrespectful things out of some sense of entitlement.....But America was BUILT on those other cultures.  

Of all of the countries that I've been in, I can tell that you that I am VERY PROUD to be American because when I look around, (particularly the military and Americans who live there, not so much the tourists) we do a good job at respecting other cultures, despite who they are.  

Case in point - while deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan, American troops DO NOT eat or drink outside or in the view of the locals in respect of Ramadan.  I'm proud to be the better man and respect their culture despite the fact that their countrymen are killing my friends.


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## crushing (May 12, 2010)

These things, including whether or not the wearing of a representation of the flag (not the actual flag) violates the US Code (only in Washington DC?) were also discussed in this thread:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=87254


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## MBuzzy (May 12, 2010)

crushing said:


> These things, including whether or not the wearing of a representation of the flag (not the actual flag) violates the US Code (only in Washington DC?) were also discussed in this thread:
> 
> http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=87254


 
Thank you for the link!  Same discussion - and judging from the picture....it would be hard to convince someone that they were not trying to start a fight, considering 2 of their shirts are cage fighting based...


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## crushing (May 12, 2010)

MBuzzy said:


> I feel that the Vice Principal was acting in the best interest of the student body and possibly protecting the safety of students.


 
So many questions come out of this.  How do a vice principal's low expectations of his students up to and including possible violence affect those students?  Do they create (more) distrust and become self fulfilling?  Was there a racial component to lead the school authorities to believe there the safety of students was in jeopardy?  Did they miss out on a teachable/learnable moment where they could first seek to understand?


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## MBuzzy (May 12, 2010)

crushing said:


> So many questions come out of this. How do a vice principal's low expectations of his students up to and including possible violence affect those students? Do they create (more) distrust and become self fulfilling? Was there a racial component to lead the school authorities to believe there the safety of students was in jeopardy? Did they miss out on a teachable/learnable moment where they could first seek to understand?


 
Agreed - I feel that the issue here is that none of these questions were investigated in the media and people are making their judgements without knowing even a small portion of the story - nor considering the positions or situations in this case.


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## LuckyKBoxer (May 12, 2010)

bushidomartialarts said:


> The thing is, the students weren't sent home for wearing the flag. They were sent home for being asshats.
> 
> The flag, like any other symbol, is only as valuable as what it's being used for. In this case, it was being used to pick a fight. Educators are absolutely right to send students home for picking a fight, whether they use abusive language or Christ on a cross to do so. I doubt very much that a student who just happened to be wearing an American Flag pin or shirt on Cinco de Mayo would have been sent home.
> 
> Making this issue about the flag is doing the same thing as those asshat minorities who turn any valid complaint into a race issue. IMO, using my beloved flag for that purpose is as much a desecration of it as burning it or wiping my *** with it.


 
You assume to much.

 They were not being asshats, the vice principal was. Nowhere have I read any story that these kids were casing problems, or doing anything other then wearing the american flag clothes... When approached by the vice principal none of them were disrespectful, and all of them  called their parents who showed up to take responsibility for their kids... if anyone is being an asshat it is the people who assume that these kids were doing anything other then wearing flags to show their patriotism for our country.

What if some of those mexican students wearing mexican flags were members of Mecha? You know the pro racist group that calls for the expulsion of all non hispanics from southern California, Arizona, and Mexico? 

no where have I heard anything about the kids with the American Flags being anything but following the rules and showing their flag... The excuse the vice principal initially gave was that he was concerned the hispanic students would act against the kids with American flags....

I just do not get where you come across assuming this kids are bad..


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## girlbug2 (May 12, 2010)

bushidomartialarts said:


> The thing is, the students weren't sent home for wearing the flag. They were sent home for *being asshats.*
> 
> The flag, like any other symbol, is only as valuable as what it's being used for. In this case, *it was being used to pick a fight*. .


 
According to you and what other Thought Police?

Because in order to make that judgement, you have to claim that you have read their minds somehow. Or at least, come up with supporting evidence.

So far no evidence has been presented that the American flag-wearing kids were being disruptive. No fights were picked.

Wearing a garment with a flag picture or colors is widely considered support of the country that flag represents. Saying with a flag t shirt that you love America is not saying that you hate any other country. It has nothing to do with any other country but America.


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## bushidomartialarts (May 13, 2010)

You're both right.  I was making an assumption and I could be wrong about it. It's possible that a group of high school students chose Cinco de Mayo as the day to sport American flags to school _with no intention whatsoever of causing any ruckus at all_.

That's possible. I wasn't there. Based on what I remember from being in high school (almost 20 years ago) and my experience working with teens, I find it very, very unlikely. But it is possible.

Will you accept that, since you weren't there either, that possibly you're making an assumption that it _wasn't_ an attempt to cause trouble?

Hell, people, when I was in high school I would have been one of the guys wearing the shirts. But I can promise you I would have been doing it in order to cause a ruckus.


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## Bumblebee (May 13, 2010)

I just think this is sad.  I mean, I'm not exactly Captain America, but it's just a shirt.  I mean, why weren't kids sent home on Cinco De Mayos before?  Also there was one example where a kid was wearing an Old Navy shirt and it just happened to have an American flag on it.  It's just dumb.


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## SensibleManiac (May 13, 2010)

I agree, I think alot of people are reading way too much into this and jumping to too many conclusions.

If the boys were trying to instigate something, then throw then out for instigating trouble, but until it is clear that is their goal, it's stupid to read anything into this.

If America is a free country then why can't anyone wear any flag they please on their shirt. I train in Judo and BJJ, does this mean if by some chance I'm wearing a Brazilian or Japanese flag on some shirt that I would be offending someone, even on the 4rth of July?

This is just sheer stupidity.

The school principal definitely jumped the gun on this and is just trying to cover his a$$ now.

If trouble started then deal with the trouble.

I can see though how with the violence that can possibly erupt in schools though that officials are on edge about trying to circumvent it.
But the principal could have called the boys in his office and asked what was going on, if anything in a friendly manner. Just to try and get to the bottom of things.


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## angrywhitepajamas (May 22, 2010)

Pardon my venting here,
   The vice principle has a responsibility towards the safety of the student body on that campus.  So the administrator may have believed there was a threat to the students in question. He then did as what he could to minimize the threat of harm to his students.  This may look rather insensitive on behalf of the vice principle, but in the context it probably seemed like a good decision at the time.  Also the vice principle was probably acting under the context that a physical altercation might happen.  His background for this decision may likely have been influenced by the histories of school districts in this area.  For example The East Side Union High School District and Oak Grove High School District are fairly close in proximity. Both have a bit of history.  Within the context would it not be an unfair assumption that the students with the flag would be subject to potential physical harm??  (By the way When I say physical harm, its not 2 guys squaring off in a  ring with padds and rules, its whom ever brings more of their friends and "toys"  into the confrontation.)

Also there is the small problem that most of the boys in question are of Latino descent.  This may not sound like an issue to the rest of Americans, but having the label of sell out or white washed can make things fairly difficult in any minority community. It needs to be stated that Nothing is quite as vicious as the conflicts within an existent ethnic group. What is usually unstated is how prejudiced different Latino groups can be towards each other.  Combining this with the issues of being first through nth generation lead to the situation being so sensitive as well as potentially volatile that the administrator had to make a decision based on the assumption that he had to protect the students. 
Again pardon my venting.
I have one question for everyone. Now knowing a bit more about the situation would you do other wise?


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## angrywhitepajamas (May 22, 2010)

This incident is only note worthy because the American Flag was used.  I'm no expert on the flag code, but I was taught that it is disrespectful to have the flag on a T shirt.  Same goes for other cultures.


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