# difference okinawan and japanese?



## jkdhit (Sep 8, 2005)

does anyone know the real differences in the two? 

 i only know japanese is basically okinawan with the names changed to japanese names and more judo involved. also that japanese focuses more on strength and power while okinawan is more focused on practicality.


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## BushidoUK (Sep 8, 2005)

Youre wrong about the Judo... the Japanese system uses less grappling than the Okinawan, except for mostly Wado based systems which have influences from Ju Jitsu,

Grappling is almost a forgotten art in karate sadly

Also Okinawan uses very specific strength training (Goju Ryu for example) and is more of a foundation than in Japanese styles.

Thats why (and this is a generalisation) most Okinawans stylists are stockier and heavy set whilst Japanese stylists are slimmer and appear more agile (only appear mind!)


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## searcher (Sep 8, 2005)

The okinawan styles also use higher stances for increased mobility.    Many of the techniques in Japanese karate kata have been changed and/or left out in comparison with the Okinawan kata and techniques.   The Japanese version tends to be more hard style instead of a blend.    These are just a few more differences.   It could take a great deal of time to list them all out.


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## TonyU (Sep 8, 2005)

searcher said:
			
		

> The okinawan styles also use higher stances for increased mobility. Many of the techniques in Japanese karate kata have been changed and/or left out in comparison with the Okinawan kata and techniques. The Japanese version tends to be more hard style instead of a blend. These are just a few more differences. It could take a great deal of time to list them all out.


Well stated.


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## arnisador (Sep 8, 2005)

I'm largely in agreement with what's been said. I find the Okinawan styles more practical.


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## okinawagojuryu (Sep 9, 2005)

I have found that true Okinawan Karate differs by the way it is trained from the Japanese variants , & influenced by their customs . Generally speaking , most Okinawan Dojo are smaller dojo , & you get personalized instruction . It is very detail oriented , however it is very laid back in comparison to the Japanese styles . I think the Japanese Budo mentality has influenced Karate both in Japan , & here in the US , as well . That Budo mentality had then increased by several American G.I.'s training there then bringing Karate to the US , after training only a short time . That is what has shaped most Gung Ho Dojo into what they are today . As Okinawan Karate is now about the development of a good heart .

David


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## Shorin Ryuu (Sep 9, 2005)

Well, here's a post I once made about the differences between Okinawan karate and Shotokan.

This question can only be answered by applying generalities to both Okinawan and Shotokan ways of doing things. Individual schools will vary, but these will most likely hold true for the majority of schools out there. 

First: Shotokan, as you know, has its origins with Gichin Funakoshi. My criticism with most Japanese systems (even though Funakoshi himself was trained in Okinawa) was that it was introduced first to the Japanese elementary school system in what I believe to be a watered down fashion. When Itosu and others developed the Pinan (Heian) kata for example, they were vastly simplified from their origins to make it easier or the practitioner (and indeed the instructor) to perform or correct. For example, the full rotation punch (there's an old thread on this that I posted on a year or two ago). The full rotation punch was introduced because it was simply less effective. The body is designed to take blows at a full 90 degree angle. The Okinawan 3/4 rotation turn (in between the vertical tate and full rotation punch) takes advantage of these angles. One of my instructors always used to say that the body is strongest and weakest at 15 degree angles....This applies in this case. The biomechanics of the arm are optimum at the 3/4 punch. In the full rotation, the bones cross one another and there are pressure points that are vulnerable with the full rotation punch that aren't vulnerable with the 3/4 punch. 

Second: Most of the level of study is not as in-depth. By that I mean there are many Shotokan fighters that can punch hard, kick fast and have a good knowledge of distance and timing. However, they lack an advanced perspective on close range fighting, to include grappling and joint or pressure point manipulation. It simply isn't there in most Shotokan stylists that I have encountered. This also goes into the kata. Generations of Japanese who learned a simplified version of karate saw "kick, punch, block, maybe a throw here and there" in there kata, but that is the depth of their analysis. True Okinawan styles have this level of analysis, including the basic level, grappling, pressure points, breathing and energy. 

Third: Speaking of energy. My opinion is that most Shotokan stances and fighting are deadlocked in terms of energy. That means that when techniques are executed from a Shotokan stance, the energy can not flow. You can view this energy as ki or biomechanics. Arakaki wrote an interesting book in which is fundamental theory was that ki was merely the utilization of gravity. Take it as you will. My point is that Shotokan has unrealistically deep stances that require pure muscle strength rather than optimum body mechanics to fight or shift from. I knew a Shotokan stylist that had an unbelievably deep front stance. Yet he could kick with his reverse leg extremely fast, but it would require much more muscle power (that he had gained from years of practice). Muscle power helps in martial arts, you must strengthen the body. However, muscle power must always be a supplement, never the foundation. True, there are Okinawan styles that have deep stances, yet these are always in a grappling context or some sort of body manipulation or center of gravity transition. I believe this to be a mistake on the Japanese part. Japanese karate was developing in the era that many of the practitioners were witness to the Industrial Revolution in Japan or enamored of its effects. During the Taisho era in Japan, there was an even greater attempt to study Western sciences, such as physics. I believe they misapplied many of its principles to karate. Yes, Force = mass x acceleration, but biomechanics means the body must be relaxed to function properly. Shotokan is an extremely "hard" style, meaning it relies heavily upon muscle and physical fitness. That isn't entirely bad, but there needs to be more of a balance. 

Fourth: Related to the last point. Shotokan looks strong. It does. The static stances require muscle and strength. Yet it is too hard in my opinion. It needs to be softer. I know they teach about relaxation in Shotokan and other styles. There is a need to work more angles and more circles into the techniques. It really is a matter of efficiency. When you get old, you won't be able to be as fast or as strong. You simply need to be more efficient. Softer styles teach efficiency via body mechanics, stances, that sort of thing (not referring to timing, as both types of styles do this). Harder styles teach that you need to train harder. I think a mix of the both is beneficial, but I believe the softer to be superior. The debate on this alone is the substance of many books, but suffice it to say, Shotokan needs to rely less on pure muscle. 

Fifth: Related to the second point. Pressure point manipulation and close range in-fighting is such a huge part of Okinawan karate. I find it heavily lacking in Shotokan and many Japanese styles, as they are more oriented towards sport fighting or pure stand-up fighting. I would be lying if I said there was not a big sports contingent on Okinawa. In fact, some styles are more traditionally taught in American then even in Okinawa! Fuse Kise, head of one of the brances of Matsumura Shorin Ryu even remarked that soon to find true traditional Okinawan karate, you may have to go to America (although his English wasn't quite so good...the meaning is the same)! Sports in karate aren't evil. I think it is a reason that has helped it flourish around the world, and that is good. Yet many places, even if sport is not the main emphasis, have devolved into sports- level analysis. There is such a wealth of pure fighting technique in Okinawan karate for all ranges of combat, yet even some styles in Okinawa are losing that range, I regret to say. Pressure point manipulation, and I don't mean tap at a point and a person dies, but I mean honest-to-goodness (in some cases, even scientifically verified in a lab) pressure point theory and practice that require contact and precision. Pressure point doesn't just mean pain, but also unbalancing and internal injuries/nerve damage. Pressure point theory includes activating pressure points to make joints vulnerable or manipulating joints to make activating pressure points vulnerable and have a full range of effects on bone, muscle and the nervous system. I find this lacking in most all Japanese styles. It is truly a higher level of understanding (along with the more internal aspects of martial arts). 

Sixth: "Yes, but Gichin Funakoshi was Okinawan, wouldn't he have taught it one way if it was superior?" The sad fact of it is, that he did teach it differently than it is practiced today. His emphasis did shift later to a more philosophical approach. At the same time, he did want to maintain functionality. But his students vastly changed his teachings. Look at his stances in old photos, they are way higher than practiced today. Even during his lifetime, he remarked that his teachings (technique-wise) were changed (negatively). I think he was pleased with the philosophical aspects of it, but after watching a demonstration by his students performed at the Budokan, he said that he was ashamed. He could not recognize what they did as the karate that he taught them. I think that is a pretty condemning statement. 

Seventh: The simple things, like the block. I believe there is no "block" in karate, that they are strikes. In Japanese styles (with the exception of certain ones, like Wado Ryu for example) the blocks are lower in front of the body. In Okinawan systems, they are much higher. Sometimes they teach the block with the fist at eye level. It seems ridiculous to have a block that exposes you so much. But it isn't a block, it is a strike to the face, for example, that happens to also make sure that your hand doesn't reach me. Or the shuto (knife-hand). In many cases, it is taught as a two-count motion. Both or one hand goes back, then it goes forward. It "chambers" then strikes. There is no such thing as a "chamber" in my opinion (same as the chambered punch). Depending on how it is performed, the first movement is the block, one hand retracts the opponent's hand while the other strikes a pressure point on the wrist. The actual "block" is a strike to a corresponding pressure point in the neck that can cause unconsciousness with much less force. I believe the chamber to be a pull inwards, never a preparation. 

Eigth: Thus everything is done for a reason. Even the yoi or ready position. I ask many people, "why do you do that?" They say "it is for respect", or, "it shows I have an empty hand." I believe that to be hogwash. The bow is for respect. Just like there is no chamber position, even the motions into a ready position have several explanations in Okinawan karate styles. I seriously ask people why they do it, explain to them my background or it is people I know so it isn't a trust issue, and they can only give me explanations like the fist at the side of the body is merely a chamber and their yoi position is merely a symbolic gesture. Going back to levels of interpretation....it is too simplistic. 

Ninth: As a general trend, there are more Shotokan dojo that do not do weapons training than Okinawan dojo that do not, for whatever reason. Perhaps this is due more to the name "empty hand" given to karate in 1936 and a philosophical consideration. 

Tenth: More Shotokan dojo seem to teach classes in a much more "rigid" fashion where people are mostly at strict attention and in solid lines, etc. This isn't so much a Shotokan thing as it is a Japanese thing. It has influenced many Okinawan styles as well (the influences have gone both ways), but I've seen a lot more "casual" Okinawan dojo then Shotokan dojo. Primarily due to the idea that "traditional" always meant hardwood dojo floors and large masses of karateka, which is a relatively new thing in karate. 


I could go on and on. I really don't mean this as an all out bash against Shotokan. But these are just differences I have noted in between Shotokan (and more Japanese styles of karate) and Okinawan karate. Feel free to pm me, email me or contest me here if you disagree with anything I said. Once again, these are criticisms of a system as a whole, not necessarily individuals or individual dojo, which vary.


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## BushidoUK (Sep 9, 2005)

A very well thought out post. I have to agree with practically everything you have said.
I truly believe Karate has suffered because of a lack of training in the grappling and weapons side of the art.
I prefer to call the style of karate I am trained in, Karate Jitsu not Karate Do to differentiate my beliefs in what I was taught (a freestyle karate system  of Zankido Ryu Ju Jitsu and Shotokan). 
Emphasising weapons, pressure points, & grappling as a necessary foundation for karate as well as kicks, punches and "blocks"


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## searcher (Sep 10, 2005)

Good post, Shorin Ryuu.   I have a question for you.   Were you on karateforums?   If so it is good to have you here.   I got kicked off for stating my opinion.   The wusses.


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## Shorin Ryuu (Sep 10, 2005)

Yes, I was (still am).  There has been an over-moderation trend that drove off most of the good people though...all the same, I stick around there because there are still some good topics every now and then.


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## searcher (Sep 10, 2005)

I would have liked to keep going, but their powers that be thought otherwise.   Anyways, it led me to MT and a wealth of good posters.    The knowledge here is tremendous.


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## TonyU (Sep 10, 2005)

searcher said:
			
		

> I would have liked to keep going, but their powers that be thought otherwise. Anyways, it led me to MT and a wealth of good posters. The knowledge here is tremendous.


You can also come here http://www.budoseek.net. I moderate the karate section and could use some more karatekas.


NOTE: My apologies to Martiatalk staff, if I broken any rules. Just trying to share the wealth.


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