# Master Chris Chan



## bully (Feb 21, 2010)

Hi All,

Anyone train under Master Chris Chan?

After the collapse of the little group here I have found a guy who trained under him and just wanted to know anything about him and his style really.

The guy here is willing to teach us, just sorting out a room. Really looking forward to it and meeting him too.

This is sort of leading on from my "can 2 different lineages train together" thread really, as it looks like we don't have any choice now!!

Any replies appreciated, have searched on here and seen some stuff about him focusing on power training, anyone expand on that?

Cheers

Bully


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## geezer (Feb 22, 2010)

bully said:


> Hi All,...
> 
> This is sort of leading on from my "can 2 different lineages train together" thread really, as it looks like we don't have any choice now!!
> 
> ...


 
Sorry, I can't help you with info. on Chris Chan, but I wish you the best of luck with your new training partner. In my experience these things can work if both parties have similar experience and are genuinely interested in what the other guy knows. Or, conversely, if one guy much better than the other, and the other guy is willing to become a student-training partner. The biggest problem arises when you have two well-meaning people who are each only interested in converting the other guy to _their way_ of doing things. That never works out.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 22, 2010)

I studied under a student of Chris for a few years, and it was time well spent.  I never met Chris personally.  He has been teaching in San Francisco for a long time.  My understanding is that he directed his focus in training on power.  Developing power became a very strong aspect of how he trains and how he teaches his students.  Some people may not like that approach, but he's trained some hard-hitting and skilled students.

His school also had the reputation for being a bit rough and tough in training habits.  Sometimes that's a good thing, sometimes it's not such a good thing.  My teacher was a gentle giant, but very skilled.


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## bully (Mar 6, 2010)

OK we all met and trained a few days ago.

Alot of the concepts are the same, the forms do differ. Well SLT/SNT does anyway as thats what we done together.

Differences included turns being in there from the 2nd form and huen saus were outside and inside.

The whole form was done under a lot of tension, although some parts were repeated but at speed. The bong sau was started as a tan sau and corkscrewed through to a bong....I have heard/read about this before. He also mentioned the shovel theory when we were doing drills.

The guy teaching was in all the right shapes and when we done chi sau he controlled me easily (as he should as I'm rubbish). 

We did some conditioning called "grinding" which consisted of doing lots of huen saus to condition tendons. I certainly could feel it the next day.

We performed some drills which I had not done before which is good, also we asked about dan chi sau etc and he knew exactly what it was etc.

So I think we are all going to give it a go, i will change my SLT (or learn both).

The style does seem to be more "hard" than what I am used to, but I have an open mind and will report back after we have been training a while. He is prepared to teach twice a week which is what we all need to progress.

Cheers

Bully


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## bully (Mar 17, 2010)

So a few observations and maybe looking for your input guys....

Power chi sau:

We have been shown power chi sau which is done with ALOT of force. Not had much time to question the guy showing it to us but....

It ruins my structure doing it with so much power, I though chi sau was all about FEELING and reacting. With so much force it is difficult to feel anything.

Lap sau drill:

Again done with alot of force and he tells us to make sure our arms stay stuck, ie the bong and the strike. Again I have never used alot of force, only when striking my opponents Bong, to make sure their structure is good. I though Lap sau was about turning it "on" ie when I strike, and turning it off ie when I change into Bong and relax and take the incoming strike.


Some different concepts here which I am finding challenging all I have been taught about Wing Chun. It seems to me that we are using force which is opposite to what I have been taught and read. The guy has said that if you take a shot and use a Tan sau to stop it you could do major damage to the opponents arm, even break it!! Whilst I realise that some guys do drills to toughen up their forearms etc and yes they can hurt me with blocks, it seems against what I have previously been shown.

Any thoughts? anyone else train like this? the SLT is done under EXTREME tension, all the way through....not just the first 3rd to train your gung lik.

I am not saying any of this is wrong btw, just very different to the concepts I have been shown. The guy also didnt seem keen on sparring, he would prefer us to do power chi sau and use that to pressure test. I have always said that no sparring, no Bully....

Any comments welcome.

Cheers

Bully


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## Vajramusti (Mar 17, 2010)

Not my cup of tea. And, it is different from other wing chun... lot more muscle tension.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 17, 2010)

Like I said, Chris is a big proponent of developing power.  From what I understand, power became his main focus.  It works well for some, not so well for others.  You will need to make your own decisions about it.


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## Vajramusti (Mar 17, 2010)

Flying Crane said:


> Like I said, Chris is a big proponent of developing power.  From what I understand, power became his main focus.  It works well for some, not so well for others.  You will need to make your own decisions about it.


-------------------------------
Understood. Thanks.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 17, 2010)

I'll say a bit more about Chris, and keep in mind, my comments are based on what I've heard from others. I've never met Chris in person, but I did study for 3-4 years under one of his students, and I know others in the San Francisco gungfu community who know Chris.

Chris can be abrasive and difficult to get along with, especially if you do something other than Wing Chun, or if you do Wing Chun differently than he does it.  Which is just about everybody.

Chris has an older brother named Stanley who keeps very low-key and under the radar. Stanley was also a student of Yip Man, and studied with Yip Man for longer than Chris did. Stanley's approach to Wing Chun is, from what I understand, quite different from Chris'. I've never met Stanley either, but my wing chun sifu has studied under both Chris and Stanley. Apparently Stanley did not make power such a primary focus in his training, and has extremely subtle hands. He's golden, when it comes to chi sau and application. He hits you however he wants, and he doesn't just try to power thru you. He has very very good technique and a very high level of application.

Well, Stanley's wing chun is different from Chris, and Chris, from what I hear, doesn't have much respect for Stanley's wing chun. But that's between the two of them.

I've heard it said that Chris didn't learn wing chun very deeply from Yip Man. I've heard it said that there are other, more knowledgeable people in the San Francisco area who are better than Chris, and have a much deeper knowledge of the art.

Nevertheless, I've met students of Chris who were fierce and tough and powerful and very effective. So clearly he is teaching something that works, even if someone wanted to argue on an academic level, that his wing chun is more basic, or less well understood, or whatever. His students are effective.

His approach to wing chun training may conflict with how others feel it ought to be done. If you decide to work with a teacher from Chris' lineage, you will simply need to decide if their approach works for you. It may, it may not.

But yes, Siu Nim Tao is done with heavy tension. Yes, you will do a lot of grinding on the wrists. You will do chi sau with a lot of heavy force. This is all part of his power approach. Personally, I think it has its place in training, but it can be overdone.


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## CRCAVirginia (Mar 17, 2010)

Here is a link to watch him Chi Sau:


http://ph8tel.com/watch_video.php?v=7a05c6741e3d3a9


*Everybody*  does WC differently.  It's getting down to which way you want to follow and what works for you at any given time on your training path.  I certainly don't do all things the same way I did one year ago.


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## chisauking (Mar 17, 2010)

Quick replies to your questions Bully:


Power chi sau:

We have been shown power chi sau which is done with ALOT of force. Not had much time to question the guy showing it to us but....

csk: Depending on one's size, there will always be limits via the power route. If your kungfu brother is 6'2 250lbs, and you are 5'8 160lbs, how are you going to overcome him with power if you are both from the same lineage, using the same methods?
Imagine a 6,000cc engine block compared to a 2,000cc engine block. No matter how you tune the engine, there's NO way the 2,000cc block can produce more power than the 6,000cc block.
However, after saying this, wing chun is seldom set in stone. There will be a time & a place for everything. There will be aspects of chisau \ gwohsau in which we must apply intensive power. Without training for power, you will never maximise your potential.

It ruins my structure doing it with so much power, I though chi sau was all about FEELING and reacting. With so much force it is difficult to feel anything.

csk: This is a good point. One of the times we should use power is during poon-sau -- as done in the WSL lineage. This excercise shows the practitioners the best structure & body alignment for the tan, bong, and fook position. By feeding force to our training partner, he\she can try to absorb the force & ground it, and also try to exert pressure back. If your structure collapse easily when your partner feeds you pressure, then it's an indication you have poor structure.
The poon-sau is an excellent drill to hone certain wing chun attributes, but it's rather long winded for me to write in detail here.
Yes, chisau is about feeling & reaction, but it covers much more than that.

Any thoughts? anyone else train like this? the SLT is done under EXTREME tension, all the way through....not just the first 3rd to train your gung lik.

csk: In general, one does use force in chisau\gwohsau, but only at the right moment in time, when it's needed. Use it in the wrong time & context, and your opponent will capitalise on it.

I can't think of any reason why wing chun practitioners would use the SLT form as an excercise in dynamic tension. This form is the foundation of our system, and it teaches us many lessons & concepts. However, power is not one of them. In fact, I would say it's the opposite of power.

If you know what you are looking for, there are clips floating around of Christ & his students in order for one to gauge his wing chun skill level.


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## chisauking (Mar 17, 2010)

flying crane sez:Nevertheless, I've met students of Chris who were fierce and tough and powerful and very effective. So clearly he is teaching something that works, even if someone wanted to argue on an academic level, that his wing chun is more basic, or less well understood, or whatever. His students are effective.

csk: Not neccessary. Some people don't need to learn a day of martial arts and they can bash most people's face. 
Fighting is very easy, it's using wing chun to fight that's extremely difficult.


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## Xinglu (Mar 17, 2010)

chisauking said:


> not neccessary. Some people don't need to learn a day of martial arts and they can bash most people's face.
> Fighting is very easy, it's using wing chun to fight that's extremely difficult.



qft!


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## Flying Crane (Mar 17, 2010)

chisauking said:


> flying crane sez:Nevertheless, I've met students of Chris who were fierce and tough and powerful and very effective. So clearly he is teaching something that works, even if someone wanted to argue on an academic level, that his wing chun is more basic, or less well understood, or whatever. His students are effective.
> 
> csk: Not neccessary. Some people don't need to learn a day of martial arts and they can bash most people's face.
> Fighting is very easy, it's using wing chun to fight that's extremely difficult.


 

yes, but these people do it with their wing chun.


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## bully (Mar 17, 2010)

Thank you for the reply guys, just finished training tonight and enjoyed it a bit more.

Our Chi sau was a little bit more how I am used to, the guy easily read my novice bumbling attacks but I enjoyed it!!

We still did SLT with dynamic tension, I think maybe its a training thing to get us stronger.

At the moment there is no one else to train with here so I will take what I can get. I will however be mindful of what I have learnt from Kevin Chan and my small amount of time with the guys at the Gary lam seminar.

Thanks for the comments Flying Crane, I saw some stuff written on the internet but it is the "internet" after all

CSK I will be mindful of what you too have written.

I will report more as I train longer.

Cheers

Bully


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