# value of combos



## cfr (Jul 18, 2005)

Do you JKD guys see value in practicing prearranged combos? Couldnt they almost be looked at as Katas against pads? Not saying I feel that way... I just started thinking about it though. Wouldnt it be better to not have prearranged movements?


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## hwarang (Jul 18, 2005)

In my oppinion it would be better Not to pre arrange your movements because its not gonna happen the way you plan it to being in a real situation is way different from hitting pads.


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## arnisador (Jul 18, 2005)

Are you talking about things like jab-cross, or longer sequences that start out with pak sao, the lop sao, then you do this, then if he turns this way you do that...I've asked myself the same question about the latter, but I see the value of having _some_ response ready.


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## Troy Ostapiw/Canada (Jul 18, 2005)

I do feel that prearranged movements are very important in the beginning of training. They teach proper body mechanics, co-ordination, range, and teach your body how to respond. It's about learning the basics, and developing muscle memory. This is the first step in training. 

Once a person has developed various combinations they work on visual sensitivity, tactile sensitivity in combination with sparring. The idea is to actualy apply what they have learned examples: Jab, Cross, hook, and upper cut. This basic combaination is very much like a traditional kata. The idea is to break down, the kata, tear it apart. 

The student attempts to apply these concepts through sparring/fighting. At this point you are still doing the jab, cross, hook, but not neccessarily in that order. Prearranged patters are only a building block, it is up to the fighter to make it work. Learn the Form, Then dissolve the form.

Without these prearranged patterns people would simply brawl, and have no way to gain combative attributes and flow. The idea with combos is to develop the basics, combos are a good teaching tool that helps to isolate one aspect of training. This is common in martial arts. Often in the begining the combos may not seem natural, and students get frustrated. Work through the prearranged sets, get good at them, they help you develop the skills you need. The real test will come when you apply what you have learned against a resisting subject in class. At this point your movements will not be based on any prearranged combos, but will be based on visual oppenings and tactile sensitivity.  It all depends on how your subject resonds to you.

When you spar, the prearranged combos will be out the window, but you will have the basic muscle memory, and flow you need to continue to learn and develop. Prearranged combos also work well in teaching students how to get comfortable moving from one range to the other ie. punching, kicking, clinch to ground work. Prearranged sets are only one aspect of learning, don't get frustrated, just get good at them and move on.


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## cfr (Jul 18, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> Are you talking about things like jab-cross, or longer sequences that start out with pak sao, the lop sao, then you do this, then if he turns this way you do that...I've asked myself the same question about the latter, but I see the value of having _some_ response ready.




I actually meant things like jab-cross.


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## arnisador (Jul 19, 2005)

I think having combos like that ready is important so you can quickly take advantage of the time you gain from scoring the jab (say). It's worked very well for boxing, afetr all.


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## Andrew Green (Jul 19, 2005)

Are you talking about standing in front of a mit and running 25 reps of Jab Cross to the same target with no variance? then doing 25 reps of double jab, 25 of jab cross hook and calling it a day?

 If thats it then yes, you'd be missing something.  

 But if you are training those things to isolate and correct form when needed, but the majority of your training is not as static then no, working out the minor details of form through slow repetition is a good tool. 

 ex:

 coach - you flair your elbows on your cross.

 ok, go work it in front of the mirror until it is cleaned up, then back to the mits / bag and adding variance.

 But what you should not do is only train certain combinations, isolating things like that is a good way to clean up form, but you also need to be able to react to changing targets and flow from one punch to another when you haven't repeated the sequence 25 times daily for months.

 So the patterns shouldn't become the basis for your training, just a way of correcting things as needed and thrown out when not.  Different people will need to clean up different things and developing a few sequences which force those aspects can help a lot at cleaning them up.

 hope my yes but no answer makes some sense


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## Knarfan (Jul 19, 2005)

So far you have gotten some great advice . I really don't have much more new advice to add , but I think that you need combo drills to develope skill & flow . You really need the foundation . Have you gone to a boxing gym & checked out how they do their pad work ? Just another idea . I would take the advice thats been given so far & devlope your skills , flow , foundation , what ever you want to call it & move on like Troy said . I do alot of knife drills in the art that I study now & I'v heard people say , knife drills are no good , you should just learn how to react , but the fact is if you don't learn sensitivity & proper machanics through drills what makes you think you could pull it off in real time ? The proper drills are great learning tools , just don't confuse it with what will happen in a real fight , but keep in mind you need to develope skills through drills . There are plenty of intellegent people out there who have developed some great drills for learning . The point that Andrew made about cleaning up bad habits was a very good one.

Good luck & good question !

Frank


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## JKD_Silat (Jul 21, 2005)

Combo's work for me. Against an experienced fighter in a Muay Thai "smoker" fight, Iused the simple ole 1-2 combo , and was quite successfull. My next fight, I want to experiment with progressive indirect attack, with punches, and kicks from different angles,  levels, rythm, and timing.....


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## MA-Caver (Jul 21, 2005)

cfr said:
			
		

> Do you JKD guys see value in practicing prearranged combos? Couldnt they almost be looked at as Katas against pads? Not saying I feel that way... I just started thinking about it though. Wouldnt it be better to not have prearranged movements?


I had a conversation with a shotokan kenpo black belt and asked him basically the same question after watching him do some EPAK combos/techniques. I liked the way he put it "...Ed Parker was a genius about the human body. In combat (fighting) he treated the body like a paper-clip; bend it back and forth enough it's going to break...." after this he demonstrated on me, and I got the idea. Do a prearranged set of combos or techniques on someone and do them hard enough and most importantly _*fast*_ enough, your opponent isn't going to have time or the inclination to throw you off timing or balance. 
Agreed it may not work 100% of the time but the number of times it will work is in direct proportion to the number of times you practice it and how fast you can do it each time.  :asian:


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## cfr (Jul 22, 2005)

I guess the reason for my asking this question is that my instructor is more into:

1; 1 guy holds focus mitts.
2; While doing footwork(moving around, not being static) the guy with the mitts will create "openings". Maybe openings for a jab/ cross, maybe for a cross/ low hook, maybe for this or that... Its up to the hitter to make use of the openings.

Not saying this is any better/ worse that standard heavy bag combos, just looking for thoughts.


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## Andrew Green (Jul 22, 2005)

Some people take the "No patterns" rule a little to far, thats all.

 Basically one person...well group, finds something that works (patterns) and takes it to the extreme focusing everything around them.  

 This builds up until someone (Lee in this case) stands up and says "This is stupid, all we do is patterns and no one can fight because of it."

 Loyal followers go, hey, he's right, lets not do any patterns ever! And the pendullum swings off in the other direction....


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## Troy Ostapiw/Canada (Jul 22, 2005)

*I Have to agree with Andrew on this one, balance is the key. *


People look at martial arts training sometimes as a Dogma or complete truth, and then take it to the extreme.


The only real way to find your own personal complete truth is to keep going, keep training, stay open, try different concepts, drills and arts.  This is a good route to finding your maximum potential with in the arts. 



 It's not the martial art, or the drills that win fights, but the individual.

Drills build attributes and co-ordination for fighting.  Martial arts are the path

Or the bridge to our personal truth in combat.  Experiment, spar, analyze and have fun.


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## Knarfan (Jul 22, 2005)

I have to agree with Andrew & Troy . I probably don't have as much MA experiance as these guy's , but from my experiances I think that the best path to full potential is the balance that they have described . I think anybody who has studied MA for a number of years will question alot of things & you should , but you should keep in mind that we are in the learning stage & somtimes it's hard to understand why things are done a certain way . I think that nowadays MA can get alittle confusing , because there are so many things going on . You can experiment all you want & also take advantage of the time tested pattern drills , have the best of both worlds . You will learn that the people who are really successfull aproach their training this way , through balance & all around skill development . So be carefull what you throw away .... I think half the fun of training is trying to figure all this stuff out
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 .

Frank


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## Mark Lynn (Jul 23, 2005)

cfr said:
			
		

> I guess the reason for my asking this question is that my instructor is more into:
> 
> 1; 1 guy holds focus mitts.
> 2; While doing footwork(moving around, not being static) the guy with the mitts will create "openings". Maybe openings for a jab/ cross, maybe for a cross/ low hook, maybe for this or that... Its up to the hitter to make use of the openings.
> ...



Ok I'm not a JKD guy however...

From looking at your post and the others (of which everyone has given you good advice) I think your instructor is following a learning progression in teaching you how to use the tools of say Jab, cross etc. etc.

You first start out with learning the combination in the air, then apply it to the mitts and then move around while hitting the pads/mitts, then the guy flashes them at you for reaction training, then he puts the mitts in a postion (random I take it from your post) and you try and do the proper sequence.

If so then it sounds like to me that you are learning several things here in a progression.
1) How to do a combo (along with proper form/body mechanics etc. etc.)
2) Reaction (when he flashes the pad you hit)
3) What combo to use when the opening occurs (this sounds like the drill you described in the last post).

So to me it sounds like it's a good idea and it's working right.

Mark


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## Troy Ostapiw/Canada (Jul 23, 2005)

*Yes, I agree it is a good drill.   You are breaking down the form, and applying it in a more combative manner.    I believe the instructor is attempting to work on visual sensitivity i.e.) the ability to see and react to the targets or openings on your opponant.    This is done in conjunction with your learned combos.    This type of drill is very good, and allows the student to explore and work on actual application.    It also helps you analyze your form,  your ability to react, as well as proper mechanics, distance ect.       Troy*


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## Troy Ostapiw/Canada (Jul 23, 2005)

*Yes, I agree it is a good drill. You are breaking down the form, and applying it in a more combative manner. I believe the instructor is attempting to work on visual sensitivity i.e.) the ability to see and react to the targets or openings on your opponant. This is done in conjunction with your learned combos. This type of drill is very good, and allows the student to explore and work on actual application. It also helps you analyze your form, your ability to react, as well as proper mechanics, distance ect. Troy*


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## FMA_Brian (Aug 6, 2005)

I think combos are excellent and I train combos often.
 Why?

It allows me to train cardio.   
Allows me to clean up form in mirror work.   
Allows for strategy creation (ie. setting up a low kick w/ hi line attacks)   
Helps set the mindset of flowing into attack with multiple strikes instead of single attacks.  That is my fav since a good offense is a good defense. 
 My two cents

 -Brian


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## cfr (Aug 13, 2005)

So, do you guys think it is better to make up your own combos that you're comfortable with, or to pick up already developed combos?


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Aug 13, 2005)

cfr said:
			
		

> So, do you guys think it is better to make up your own combos that you're comfortable with, or to pick up already developed combos?


(1) Learn some already developed combos just to learn the basics and concepts.  (2) Then make your own combos to study the basics and concepts relative to YOUR way of fighting.  (3) Internalize the basics and concepts so that your combinations are neither the developed ones you learned or the ones you made but are instead spontaneous to the situation.  This 3 step process has remained the same and been successful throughout all the arts of my study.  Hope this helps.


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## NotQuiteDead (Aug 13, 2005)

IMO there's nothing wrong with practicing simple prearranged combos as long as they don't get too long and rely on your opponent reacting a certain way. 
  Examples:
  1. Jab-Cross-Left Hook-Cross

  2. Jab-Cross-Knee where the opponent's head will be when he ducks under your cross-Hook

 The first example can be used frequently with a high rate of success. The second example is veering off into the realm of kata land and won't be very useful because it relies on your opponent reacting a certain way.


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## Eric Daniel (Oct 6, 2005)

I heard there are two ways of attack. 1) Single Direct Attack. 2) Attack by combanation. Personaly I would go with Attack by combanation because my sensei has told me that a person can block a single direct attack, but it's much harder to block three or four attacks. My sensei has also told me that "if you don't know what to do, jab". The jab sets up other attacks like maybe cross, hook uppercut as said earlier.


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## arnisador (Oct 6, 2005)

I agree about the jab.

I think JKD usually distinguihes five types of attacks like SDA, ABC, etc. For example, there's also Single Indirect Attack.


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## Brother John (Oct 6, 2005)

YES! I believe that combinations and training in them are VERY important to a martial arts student.
It'd be like taking the subject of skill in 'speaking'.
One can simply practice and practice in getting up infront of many different people and just "Go at it"..
or they can study English, grammar, speach classes, debate....etc. and really learn the craft.....ALL THE WHILE still doing what the other man was doing, getting up infront of MANY different kinds of people and working at delivering a good speach.
The second man, I think, would surely have a greater chance at being an Excellent speaker. The first man would tend to be more hit and miss.


Your Brother
John


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