# Belt Rank Progress



## PhotonGuy

I've been thinking, when it comes to belt ranks, going from one belt to another can sometimes be a big jump. In the USA you see this particularly with the black belt where the black belt is often put on a pedestal and the jump from brown to black can sometimes be a really big jump. Should it be done like that or perhaps belt rank should just be sequential where there are no big jumps from one belt to another including from brown to black. Much like in school, with some classes that you might take such as History, that you start with History 1 and than each proceeding semester you then take History 2, History 3, and then History 4. History 4 isn't necessarily and harder than History 3, History 2, or History 1, its just sequential and builds on the knowledge gained from the first three courses.


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## James Kovacich

I don't get what your saying here. How is it a big jump from brown belt to black belt? And is it an American problem?

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## JiuJiuBJJ

I also don't understand what you're saying. Or which discipline you're talking about. In BJJ there are only 5 belts, including white and black, and so there are absolutely big leaps between them (though between white and blue - much less overall).


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## rlobrecht

At the TKD school I used to attend, the last colored belt to black was a slightly bigger jump than the progression from one colored belt to the next, in terms of new material. But the test was much harder, and you had to demonstrate all the material learned to date. With the colored belt tests, only the high belts had to demonstrate any lower belt material, and it was only 1 early pattern. 

This makes sense to me.


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## Rich Parsons

PhotonGuy said:


> I've been thinking, when it comes to belt ranks, going from one belt to another can sometimes be a big jump. In the USA you see this particularly with the black belt where the black belt is often put on a pedestal and the jump from brown to black can sometimes be a really big jump. Should it be done like that or perhaps belt rank should just be sequential where there are no big jumps from one belt to another including from brown to black. Much like in school, with some classes that you might take such as History, that you start with History 1 and than each proceeding semester you then take History 2, History 3, and then History 4. History 4 isn't necessarily and harder than History 3, History 2, or History 1, its just sequential and builds on the knowledge gained from the first three courses.



Education has kindergarten to 12 th grade. Until you complete all the requirements for a High School Diploma you do not have a high school diploma. You can gradually step up to it with each grade and each class. But until you complete the requirements for a High School Diploma you do not have one. The high school diploma is a big step from nothing. Jobs require a High school diploma or GED. The GED is for those who study and then take a test to qualify for the requirements for a High School diploma. Yet it still does not have the same feeling to it. 

So the perceived step form Brown to Black is real as until you meet the requirements to be a black belt you are not one.


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## Takai

Rich Parsons said:


> So the perceived step form Brown to Black is real as until you meet the requirements to be a black belt you are not one.



But wouldn't that apply to any belt level? Until you meet the requirements you aren't an XXX belt.


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## PhotonGuy

Not all, but lots of the dojos have the brown belt as the belt rank right before black belt. Sometimes, a dojo might have multiple levels for a colored belt, for instance, brown low, brown middle, brown high, and then black. What Im saying is that the step from brown high to black should not be such a big jump, it shouldn't be much bigger than the step from brown low to brown middle or brown middle to brown high, based on the knowledge, experience, and abilities of the student. Somebody mentioned getting a high school diploma and yes, a student will not get a diploma until they successfully complete their senior year. However, the jump from senior to alumni is not a big jump. As a matter of fact, the senior year is usually a lighter year than some of the other years in high school and usually its the junior year that is academically the hardest. So for a senior in high school to complete the year and get a diploma is not a big jump.


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## Takai

PhotonGuy said:


> Not all, but lots of the dojos have the brown belt as the belt rank right before black belt. Sometimes, a dojo might have multiple levels for a colored belt, for instance, brown low, brown middle, brown high, and then black. What Im saying is that the step from brown high to black should not be such a big jump, it shouldn't be much bigger than the step from brown low to brown middle or brown middle to brown high, based on the knowledge, experience, and abilities of the student. Somebody mentioned getting a high school diploma and yes, a student will not get a diploma until they successfully complete their senior year. However, the jump from senior to alumni is not a big jump. As a matter of fact, the senior year is usually a lighter year than some of the other years in high school and usually its the junior year that is academically the hardest. So for a senior in high school to complete the year and get a diploma is not a big jump.



This same type of leveling occurs within all of the colored ranks. I guess I am still not seeing the point you are trying to make. It almost seems like you are contradicting yourself to try and make your point. Just my HO.


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## oftheherd1

In the TKD I studied very many years ago, and the Hapkido I studied many years ago, there was progression from white to black.  There was not a sudden harder jump from brown (TKD) or red (Hapkido) to black.  But attainment of a black belt signified a certain amount of learning, and that amount was significant.  It took a certain amount of time and training to attain.   That was what I always thought a black belt meant.  I had put in that amount of training and achieved that certain amount of learning, that I was awarded a black belt.  It signified that level of learning and ability.

Do you think it is of any significance that there are levels of black belt, but colors, at least in the two schools where I studied?  Black belt was an acknowledgement that I had achieved that amount of learning.  In the hapkido I learned, there was a great amount of learning from 1st to 2nd, and from 2nd to 3rd.  I am sure there was the same between higher levels of black belt.  

To the OP, have you found it different in the school(s) you attend or have attended.


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## Rich Parsons

Takai said:


> But wouldn't that apply to any belt level? Until you meet the requirements you aren't an XXX belt.



Yes it does. Except at Black Belt many get to Teach and they do not teach before hand. While I know that is not true it is the perception. So many outsiders and beginners see that step as huge. Also the Black Belt Club, you might be the lowest one but you still get to sit at the black belt table. 

That being said, it is a step and it may be large. 

But it is not the different from the steps of the other ranks either. Just that there is this perception associated with this rank.


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## PhotonGuy

Takai said:


> This same type of leveling occurs within all of the colored ranks. I guess I am still not seeing the point you are trying to make. It almost seems like you are contradicting yourself to try and make your point. Just my HO.



    What Im saying is that, in some martial arts schools, from my own observation, going from the rank that's right before black belt to black belt is a big step. I heard of this one place where the black belt test took two days, whereas tests for all the lower belts including the rank right before black belt took about an hour or less. I heard of this other place where to get a black belt, you had to spar all the black belts in the school and there were over 100 of them as this was a big place. 

    To make an analogy with getting a high school diploma, if a high school diploma was a black belt, lets say that during your senior year you have to take ten classes and maintain a 95 or higher average in all of them in order to get a diploma. That is how its done in some dojos.


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## James Kovacich

PhotonGuy said:


> What Im saying is that, in some martial arts schools, from my own observation, going from the rank that's right before black belt to black belt is a big step. I heard of this one place where the black belt test took two days, whereas tests for all the lower belts including the rank right before black belt took about an hour or less. I heard of this other place where to get a black belt, you had to spar all the black belts in the school and there were over 100 of them as this was a big place.
> 
> To make an analogy with getting a high school diploma, if a high school diploma was a black belt, lets say that during your senior year you have to take ten classes and maintain a 95 or higher average in all of them in order to get a diploma. That is how its done in some dojos.


Using your analogy, this isn't an American thing at all. Black belt testing is normally more involved world wide.


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## clfsean

PhotonGuy said:


> What Im saying is that, in some martial arts schools, from my own observation, going from the rank that's right before black belt to black belt is a big step. I heard of this one place where the black belt test took two days, whereas tests for all the lower belts including the rank right before black belt took about an hour or less. I heard of this other place where to get a black belt, you had to spar all the black belts in the school and there were over 100 of them as this was a big place.
> 
> To make an analogy with getting a high school diploma, if a high school diploma was a black belt, lets say that during your senior year you have to take ten classes and maintain a 95 or higher average in all of them in order to get a diploma. That is how its done in some dojos.



I've been told mine will take about 16 hours & will be completely comprehensive of what I've learned vertbatim. 

Then the fun starts -- 
All forms left handed (empty hand, weapons, paired). 
Sanda as normal. 
Sanda limited to techniques of a particular form only.
Sanda limted to left handed only. 
Weapon sparring then left hand only. 

I've also been told my instructor certification (years down the road) is over 40 hours. But there's LOTS involved with this outside of just the physical test.


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## PhotonGuy

James Kovacich said:


> Using your analogy, this isn't an American thing at all. Black belt testing is normally more involved world wide.



     Not in the country of its origin. In Japan, the black belt is seen as just another belt. Aside from being higher up in the ranking system, getting a black belt is no different from getting a green belt or a blue belt or any other colored belt, in proportion to your current skill and experience and what you've got to do to get it.


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## frank raud

PhotonGuy said:


> Not in the country of its origin. In Japan, the black belt is seen as just another belt. Aside from being higher up in the ranking system, getting a black belt is no different from getting a green belt or a blue belt or any other colored belt, in proportion to your current skill and experience and what you've got to do to get it.


 And yet, at the Kodokan at least, there is still a significant time frame difference from brown to black, compared with white to yellow, brown, etc. So, yes, in Japan, Shodan is not seen as a level of mastery, merely a beginning of understanding of the art.


Taken from a thread on the old Judoforum........

"I started training at the Kodokan in July with my eyes toward improving my judo technically and possibly attaining shodan. Prior to this, I trained in the States for about 1.5 years at Cranford JKC. A few observations at the Kodokan school...

Kodokan does advertise that someone can go from beginner to shodan in one year (there is a large banner on the side of the building that advertises this!) It is possible but its not a cakewalk. 

Even if you have 3 kyu you must start from the absolute beginning. Your first day is tying your obi and maybe a little ukemi. You do nothing but ukemi and uchikomi for three months. (No randori for three months!) 

At the end of the first three months (you must attend at least 40 training sessions which usually translates to three months), you are tested on the first fifteen throws of the Go Kyo no Waza (mostly from the first two groups), some newaza, and ukemi in front of a panel of three judges for 5 kyu. You must know the names of the throws and execute then as the sensei calls them out. 

If you pass this test, then you can do randori. After another month (with good attendence), you can test for 4 kyu, the same fifteen throws are judged more strictly along with ukemi and you must demonstrate some randori. 

After you pass 4 kyu, you can participate in the monthly batsugun shia. You need to come to practice at least ten times that month in order to participate in the batsugun shiai. For the shiai, first you must do ukemi in front of a panel of judges, then you have two matches. 

If you get two ippon you are promoted, but if your ukemi is judged poorly you do not advance (the ukemi judging is very strict). With this ukemi restriction, they can hold back. 

From 1 kyu to shodan you need six ippon. This translates to attending at least three batsugun shiai (with a perfect record). Next, you need to do the nage no kata in front of a Kodokan panel. 

Therefore you need to allot time to practice the kata. The sensei will help you but you must first get your six ippon. 

So, with strong technical judo the first three months, good results for the two tests for 5 kyu and 4 kyu, a perfect batsugun shiai record, strong technical ukemi demonstrated throughout (with some good will from the judging panel), and great kata you should be able to manage shodan in a year. 

Good Luck!!!"


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## James Kovacich

PhotonGuy said:


> Not in the country of its origin. In Japan, the black belt is seen as just another belt. Aside from being higher up in the ranking system, getting a black belt is no different from getting a green belt or a blue belt or any other colored belt, in proportion to your current skill and experience and what you've got to do to get it.



Could you name some schools and styles because I'm not seeing what your trying express. American martial arts are very diverse can't be painted with the same brush. 

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## PhotonGuy

James Kovacich said:


> Could you name some schools and styles because I'm not seeing what your trying express. American martial arts are very diverse can't be painted with the same brush.
> 
> Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk 2



      I don't know the name offhand but there is a school in North Carolina where the black belt test takes two days. You come in the first day and do all this stuff and then you come back the next day and do all this other stuff and if you successfully complete it and do all the stuff you've got to do well enough than you get a black belt. This is in sharp contrast to the test for the belt level right before black, the brown belt, which takes roughly an hour to take and complete and is much easier than the black belt test. Naturally the black belt test should be longer and harder than the brown belt test since it is a higher belt but for a black belt test to take two days and be much harder than a brown belt test which only takes an hour is quite an extreme jump if you ask me. My point is, should the black belt be such a big jump? Perhaps the black belt test should only be a little harder than the brown belt test and should only take maybe an hour and a half to complete, not two days. After all, with subjects in school, when you complete a course and go to a more advanced course usually the more advanced course is just a little harder, and in some cases such as with history classes, the more advanced class isn't harder at all but is merely sequential.


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## James Kovacich

PhotonGuy said:


> I don't know the name offhand but there is a school in North Carolina where the black belt test takes two days. You come in the first day and do all this stuff and then you come back the next day and do all this other stuff and if you successfully complete it and do all the stuff you've got to do well enough than you get a black belt. This is in sharp contrast to the test for the belt level right before black, the brown belt, which takes roughly an hour to take and complete and is much easier than the black belt test. Naturally the black belt test should be longer and harder than the brown belt test since it is a higher belt but for a black belt test to take two days and be much harder than a brown belt test which only takes an hour is quite an extreme jump if you ask me. My point is, should the black belt be such a big jump? Perhaps the black belt test should only be a little harder than the brown belt test and should only take maybe an hour and a half to complete, not two days. After all, with subjects in school, when you complete a course and go to a more advanced course usually the more advanced course is just a little harder, and in some cases such as with history classes, the more advanced class isn't harder at all but is merely sequential.



Oh so talking about the black belt test being more comprehensive? That varies between schools, systems... It could be argued that the longer more comprehensive bb test is required to cover everything you've learned. 

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## oftheherd1

Rich Parsons said:


> Yes it does. Except at Black Belt many get to Teach and they do not teach before hand.
> ...



In the TKD and Hapkido I studied, advanced color belts would teach lower belts.  But if you were talking about running their own schools, no.  In the Hapkido I studied, you normally had to be a 4th Dan, and under a Grand Master to have your owl school.



PhotonGuy said:


> ..
> 
> I heard of this other place where to get a black belt, you had to spar all the black belts in the school and there were over 100 of them as this was a big place.
> ...



I think this used to be the norm in TKD.  I remember being told by some who had studied in Korea, that they had to do so to acquire a black belt.  But I think it was three, not every black belt in the school.  They also had to make up their own black belt form.


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## Rich Parsons

oftheherd1 said:


> In the TKD and Hapkido I studied, advanced color belts would teach lower belts. But if you were talking about running their own schools, no. In the Hapkido I studied, you normally had to be a 4th Dan, and under a Grand Master to have your owl school.
> 
> 
> 
> I think this used to be the norm in TKD. I remember being told by some who had studied in Korea, that they had to do so to acquire a black belt. But I think it was three, not every black belt in the school. They also had to make up their own black belt form.




Yes, Higher Ranked Colored Belts instruct and work with lower ranked Colored Belts. I was speaking generically to what some other systems do. And possible why the original poster was "seeing" what they were.


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## Rokuta

I can offer a further illustration of the variety in testing. Hopefully it is topical, even useful.

I'm still prety new to all this and may be a bit garbled, but for Ninpo (Genbukan) we are expected to test comprehensively 3 times prior to black belt, but not for black belt itself. I believe the second green belt/Rokyu, second purple/Gokyu and second brown/Nikyu require students to test on prior material. So a student studying Rokyu would also test on green 1, orange, yellow and white. Not sure if purple is as comprehensive or if they just do both purples and Rokyu. However Nikyu covers ALL prior material and lasts a couple of hours. So Ichikyu/Black is comparatively easy.  

Still don't kow all our kyu names by heart yet.

I had the priviledge of watching a black belt test earlier this year and was blown away by the athleticism required of the participants. While it is noticeably shorter than Nikyu/brown, it is not a cakewalk.

My observations are: That a martial artist approaching the level of black belt would be expected to know all prior material at a high level of proficiency, and be able to prove it at least once if not more than once during their progression (how else can they teach effectively). The placement and number of comprehensive exam(s) will vary from art to art. High levels of athleticism are a must and hopefully have been encouraged in the previous cycles of training. I have the utmost respect for anyone who has gone through these tests and been recognized as a black belt in any martial art.

I'm looking forward to testing for yellow very soon and can assert that I have not been pushed too far too fast. In fact it's been a bit slow, though I'm not complaining.  My sensei wants his students to pass when tested and will not test untill they demonstrate they are ready. How they actually perform is up to the individual on the day of the test.


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## frank raud

PhotonGuy said:


> I don't know the name offhand but there is a school in North Carolina where the black belt test takes two days. You come in the first day and do all this stuff and then you come back the next day and do all this other stuff and if you successfully complete it and do all the stuff you've got to do well enough than you get a black belt. This is in sharp contrast to the test for the belt level right before black, the brown belt, which takes roughly an hour to take and complete and is much easier than the black belt test. Naturally the black belt test should be longer and harder than the brown belt test since it is a higher belt but for a black belt test to take two days and be much harder than a brown belt test which only takes an hour is quite an extreme jump if you ask me. My point is, should the black belt be such a big jump? Perhaps the black belt test should only be a little harder than the brown belt test and should only take maybe an hour and a half to complete, not two days. After all, with subjects in school, when you complete a course and go to a more advanced course usually the more advanced course is just a little harder, and in some cases such as with history classes, the more advanced class isn't harder at all but is merely sequential.



Is it reasonable  to assume that at this mystery school, if a brown belt test is an hour, that you are only testing the techniques learned from the previous level, without variations? And that a black belt test that takes two days would include everything the student has learned from white to brown, plus being demonstrated on the offside, plus showing multiple variations of techniques and various possible combinations of techniques against one or more opponents? You are leaving much to the imagination in your argument. If a black belt test takes two days(your example), should the brown belt test be a day and a half? The blue belt test one day? Would you have more respect for a black belt who passed an hour and a half test or one who endured 18 grueling hours? If the brown belt test is one hour, and you envision an hour and a half black belt test, what would you eliminate from the black belt test to reduce the test length to 1/8 of the original test length? Your hypotheticals, fill in the blanks.


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## Cirdan

Tests take longer and gets more difficult for each new belt because you must must improve all the old stuff as well as learn the new. The black belt is not special in this regard, the only differences tend to be cosmetic things (bigger diploma, embroidered belt, you can wear a full instructor`s jacket etc).

If there is a bigger step somewhere I would say it is at blue-purple belt (after 2-3 years of training). This is where just showing up regularly is not enough any more, the technical stuff requires hard work and you can`t leave your brain in the locker room. A LOT of people quit here, somtimes called The Blue Belt Syndrome. There may also be a big step assosiated with any rank where you are expected to start teaching.


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## Mark Lynn

Photon
Perhaps it isn't that there is such a big jump content wise in the curriculum as much as it is a time of proving yourself and getting yourself ready for the responsibility in wearing a BB.  Generally earning your BB is seen as a rite of passage, or as it was told me to "now that you have learned the basics you are ready to really learn" which is seen as a step up, a new beginning in your training after you earn that rank.  




PhotonGuy said:


> I don't know the name offhand but there is a school in North Carolina where the black belt test takes two days. You come in the first day and do all this stuff and then you come back the next day and do all this other stuff and if you successfully complete it and do all the stuff you've got to do well enough than you get a black belt.


 
Sometimes the several day BB test can be handled several different ways.
1) The test might be broken up where the student does say all of their kata, one steps, self defense all of the demo stuff before an open crowd (i.e. family, friends, general audience etc. etc.).  Then the student comes back to a closed session where they then spar and are put through a hard physical test meant to test their spirit and their will.  I know of one school who does their tests this way and they invite fighters from other schools to come and spar with their BB candidate, but it is a closed door invite only type of a thing because they really beat on the person.

2) I know of another school(s) that the BB test was a huge deal, 3 day long get together with all of the other schools in the association, and all of the BB candidates all testing and demoing at once (meaning one testing period).  Here the test is for the student and for the family of the student as well.  Everyone stays at the camp all learning and training together forming a bond for this rite of passage.



PhotonGuy said:


> This is in sharp contrast to the test for the belt level right before black, the brown belt, which takes roughly an hour to take and complete and is much easier than the black belt test. Naturally the black belt test should be longer and harder than the brown belt test since it is a higher belt but for a black belt test to take two days and be much harder than a brown belt test which only takes an hour is quite an extreme jump if you ask me.



Not necessarily, as I described above both were multi day tests doing the same thing, making it an experience for the tester, a rite of passage.  In the second example above it is a huge deal that is brought about at the end of 3-4 years training, being forced to train with different instructors in the association (so they can sign off on you etc. etc.) and a big demo for your family to witness what you have been studying the past several years.

In the first example the closed door part of the test is to mentally and physically exhaust you, and they consider it extreme enough not to include family and friends.  It is private for the BB candidate to endure.

Even though; schools that don't do 2-3 day long tests do the same thing in a sense.
1) My instructor takes a student when they reach 1st brown and at that time they are expected to train after hours at his private dojo where they learn to fight and not just spar for a period of not less then 1 year.  They do rounds of body work, pad up and fight.  Last time I talked with him he mentioned they were also knife sparring now during these training sessions.  Now the people who the students are going against are not only each other, but my instructor and his workout buddies (also other black belts from the main school, and other invited friends) who have been at his dojo doing this for close to 30+ years now 2-3 nights a week every week.  Speaking from personal experience prior to my instructor retiring and then teaching at a commercial location, I came up in his private dojo doing this very thing and it was a great but grueling experience.  He carried on the tradition as he raised BBs in his current commercial (open to the public so to speak) location.  To earn your BB everyone goes through this, even his oldest student who was in his 70's when he tested for shodan.

2) My BB test in Arnis under Hock Hochheim (back in 1995), was several hours long and was comprehensive and covered double stick, single stick, espada y daga, knife and empty hand. In including all sorts of flow drills, sparring against weapons, disarms you name it.

3) MY BB test under my karate instructor (described above in 1987/88) involved kata, one steps, self defense, weapons kata, basics and kicking combinations, as well as sparring all of the BB on the board (7, I think) and the black belts who weren't on the board (2-3), along with a couple of brown belts thrown in for good measure.  All in a smaller space than a two car garage (like I said we needed a place for the board and observers to fit, in my instructors private dojo) in Texas in the summer and no A/C.  It went for 2-3 hours.

4) I saw a BB test at a school that had sent out a BB candidate to run 5 miles and then come back do a few kata and then had to fight 15 people at once (most of them white belts). (not a school that I trained at)

5) I've sat on BB exam boards for our TKD association where the candidate does all their kata, one steps, kicking combos, basics, etc. etc. and then fight everyone who volunteers black belts and under(with a one mile run to warm up).  In this association these students might come from different schools under different instructors (teaching the same curriculum) so these can be larger tests with more people to spar with.  The last one had maybe 20+ people to spar with and lasted about 2 hours in length. 



PhotonGuy said:


> My point is, should the black belt be such a big jump? Perhaps the black belt test should only be a little harder than the brown belt test and should only take maybe an hour and a half to complete, not two days. After all, with subjects in school, when you complete a course and go to a more advanced course usually the more advanced course is just a little harder, and in some cases such as with history classes, the more advanced class isn't harder at all but is merely sequential.



YES the BB test should be a big jump if your school or your association wants it to be.  In all of the above examples other than the one I threw in where the guy had to fight off 15+ white belts at once.  The BB is a rite of passage, something that you earn, something that isn't even considered to be given to a 7 year old or earned in a short 2 year period.  It took me 7-8 years to earn my shodan under my sensei, it is still about that now with his current students (even the guy who started in his 60's and earned his shodan in his 70's, as well as his adult sons and his daughter in law who tested for shodan with him).  Some students with my instructor start training at 5 and earn shodan when they turn 16 (the earliest age he will test someone for), and they too spend the last year training at the home dojo as well as the regular classes. 

I make my students go for a year in between 1st brown (now red) and shodan so they can be more seasoned in helping to assist in classes, and to fine tune their techniques.  

For lack of a better term it is part of our dojo lore.  With my sensei it is being part of the band of brothers so to speak.  You develop a bond with the others who went through the training and earned their rank.  Likewise it is the same thing with the 1st school I mentioned with the hard sparring on the 2nd day.  All though I have never seen first hand the 2nd school with the 3 day camp, I imagine it is the same.  You can lose your job, go through a divorce, go through hard times (not that I want to do any of that), but you can't take away that experience of training, of getting ready, of surviving, the feeling of accomplishment of passing a hard exam, that so many others failed to take by dropping out.

I for one would rather have a long hard test, having gone though I think 4 shodan tests in different arts, the ones that mean the most for me were my hardest under Hock (2X) and under my sensei (1X).  After shodan for me, it is different, it is more about growing in the art.


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## Mark Lynn

From my earlier post I said I wanted to take a hard test that it mean more to me than being given a belt.  This doesn't mean that I believe all tests need to be the same, as in physically demanding in order to be a black belt.

I think the hard tests or the long tests are designed to give the student a feeling of accomplishment, that if you are not part of the school outsiders might believe is extreme, over done etc. etc.

Likewise I recently posted over in the Modern Arnis forum about how I passed two of my senior students to Lakan and Dayan ranks in Presas Arnis (my combination of GM Remy and GM Ernesto's arnis system).  Theirs wasn't a hard exam in fact they didn't even know they were being examined.  You can read about the exam in that forum but long post short it was while watching them and helping them during class (watching them assist in class) and seeing what they were doing beyond (but still in the spirit) of my curriculum that I decided they were ready to promote.  I arranged for their former instructor and another senior instructor who knew them and meant something to them to also watch them over a weekend at a seminar and they too approved them for BB ranks. 

The reason I did this was so that they knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that they had earned their rank.  They don't need to any other organization telling them their rank is worthless, or to be a BB they need to have this signature or that signature to be legit.  There was no favoritism involved, no politics, just recognizing a students hard work in learning their given art.

Whether or not the student goes through a 3 day test, a 2 hour test, or even a secret test, I think the point needs to be that the student knows and feels they earned it, not that it is the same old same old, well it is just another test, it is just another rank, just something else to be stacked up on the book self, hidden in a drawer, toss that experience into the round file etc. etc.

For some school cultures rank is down played, believe it or not even as BBs under my sensei rank was down played even after shodan (certainly before shodan when we trained at his dojo) as in time between grades (so it wasn't a belt factory).  But the shodan test was something that was built up into us.  We just knew it was going to be hard, it was excepted and expected.  I do the same.  But it doesn't mean that it has to be a big jump, or a hard test, or whatever.  Each school is different and the BB is only good in the school or the association where it was given.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Its been awhile since I've been to the school in North Carolina, but I do know that for the black belt test you had to do a mile run as well as some other stuff that you didn't need to do for lower ranks. Naturally the black belt test would have more than a lower belt test as its a higher belt but for the black belt test in this school you had to do extra stuff that wasn't directly related to martial arts technique. People have talked about how with some black belt tests, that they cover everything that you learned since white belt. If the black belt test is going to include that then every test should include that.


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## Daniel Sullivan

PhotonGuy said:


> I don't know the name offhand but there is a school in North Carolina where the black belt test takes two days.


There are some schools in my area and schools around the country that I have hears about that do things like this, some even having students stay overnight in the dojo/ang.  There really isn't a big jump in material and personally, I find the two day thing to be kind of cheesy. 

What I see in such tests is a lot over the top tests of physical endurance and a lot of weird (in my opinion) ceremonies designed to confirm your warrior-hood.  I'm not going to express a value judgement on such practices, but it is not something that I do with my own students.  My shodan tests are less than two hours long and they're free.


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## PhotonGuy

Well in my dojo there was a long standing myth that in order to take the black belt test you had to wait for the head sensai to tell you that you could take it. The way belt rank and promotion works in my dojo is like this. Every three or four months they have belt exams. When they do have such exams, if you want to you can sign up for it and take the exam for your next belt up, whatever it might be. The myth was that, unlike with the lower belts, that once you got to high level brown belt, the rank right before black, before you could even sign up for and take the test you had to wait for the head sensai to tell you that you could take it. The fact of the matter was, as I said, that it was a myth. Like with the lower belts you could sign up for and take the black belt test whenever you wanted to, at your own discretion, when they had tests every three to four months, once you made high level brown belt. Whether or not you pass would be a different matter but just to take the test, that was your choice and you didn't have to wait for the head sensai to tell you that you could take it. However, just the fact that such a myth would exist shows how the black belt can be put on a pedestal. If you don't need to be told you can take the test for the lower belts than you shouldn't need to be told you can take the test for the black belt. Especially since my head sensai is from Japan where the black belt is just seen as another belt. So that's how I think it should be done here.


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## James Kovacich

PhotonGuy said:


> Well in my dojo there was a long standing myth that in order to take the black belt test you had to wait for the head sensai to tell you that you could take it. The way belt rank and promotion works in my dojo is like this. Every three or four months they have belt exams. When they do have such exams, if you want to you can sign up for it and take the exam for your next belt up, whatever it might be. The myth was that, unlike with the lower belts, that once you got to high level brown belt, the rank right before black, before you could even sign up for and take the test you had to wait for the head sensai to tell you that you could take it. The fact of the matter was, as I said, that it was a myth. Like with the lower belts you could sign up for and take the black belt test whenever you wanted to, at your own discretion, when they had tests every three to four months, once you made high level brown belt. Whether or not you pass would be a different matter but just to take the test, that was your choice and you didn't have to wait for the head sensai to tell you that you could take it. However, just the fact that such a myth would exist shows how the black belt can be put on a pedestal. If you don't need to be told you can take the test for the lower belts than you shouldn't need to be told you can take the test for the black belt. Especially since my head sensai is from Japan where the black belt is just seen as another belt. So that's how I think it should be done here.



 What your calling a myth isn't accurate for martial arts as a whole. What your stating your dojo does sounds more like a McDojo to me. Anything and everything is always at the discretion of the Head Master, Hanshi, whoever is the highest. True some schools do things differantly but they don't set the standard.

Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk 2


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## Cirdan

PhotonGuy said:


> Well in my dojo there was a long standing myth that in order to take the black belt test you had to wait for the head sensai to tell you that you could take it. The way belt rank and promotion works in my dojo is like this. Every three or four months they have belt exams. When they do have such exams, if you want to you can sign up for it and take the exam for your next belt up, whatever it might be. The myth was that, unlike with the lower belts, that once you got to high level brown belt, the rank right before black, before you could even sign up for and take the test you had to wait for the head sensai to tell you that you could take it. The fact of the matter was, as I said, that it was a myth. Like with the lower belts you could sign up for and take the black belt test whenever you wanted to, at your own discretion, when they had tests every three to four months, once you made high level brown belt. Whether or not you pass would be a different matter but just to take the test, that was your choice and you didn't have to wait for the head sensai to tell you that you could take it. However, just the fact that such a myth would exist shows how the black belt can be put on a pedestal. If you don't need to be told you can take the test for the lower belts than you shouldn't need to be told you can take the test for the black belt. Especially since my head sensai is from Japan where the black belt is just seen as another belt. So that's how I think it should be done here.



Not a myth at all in traditional schools. Or in modern ones for that matter. In fact I`d say that being able to "sign up" for any level of grading without instructor`s approval is a major red flag.

Sure the black belt is just another belt, but it usually signifies _some_ level of skill.


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## PhotonGuy

Cirdan said:


> Not a myth at all in traditional schools. Or in modern ones for that matter. In fact I`d say that being able to "sign up" for any level of grading without instructor`s approval is a major red flag.
> 
> Sure the black belt is just another belt, but it usually signifies _some_ level of skill.



What you can "sign up" for is the test. That doesn't mean you will pass but you can take the test for the next level. Just because you take the test does not mean you will get to the next level, you can take it and fail. Obviously, you cannot pass and get the next level without the instructor's approval.


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## frank raud

PhotonGuy said:


> What you can "sign up" for is the test. That doesn't mean you will pass but you can take the test for the next level. Just because you take the test does not mean you will get to the next level, you can take it and fail. Obviously, you cannot pass and get the next level without the instructor's approval.


If I am understanding you correctly, you can sign up for a test you are not prepared enough to take? Using your example , after 3-4 months as a brown belt, you can sign up for the black belt test? Has anyone (or more than one) ever successfully taken the black belt test after such a short period as a brown belt? What form of martial arts do you do, karate, aikido, jiu jitsu or? What are the requirements in your school for a brown belt to take the shodan test?


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## MJS

PhotonGuy said:


> I've been thinking, when it comes to belt ranks, going from one belt to another can sometimes be a big jump. In the USA you see this particularly with the black belt where the black belt is often put on a pedestal and the jump from brown to black can sometimes be a really big jump. Should it be done like that or perhaps belt rank should just be sequential where there are no big jumps from one belt to another including from brown to black. Much like in school, with some classes that you might take such as History, that you start with History 1 and than each proceeding semester you then take History 2, History 3, and then History 4. History 4 isn't necessarily and harder than History 3, History 2, or History 1, its just sequential and builds on the knowledge gained from the first three courses.



IMHO, I think nowadays, too many people put too much into the belts, rather than the quality of the material.  Just because someone is a orange belt, a green belt, or even black, does not mean that they're any good.  In many of the arts that I have experience in, there is usually a longer period of time between brown and black.  In Kenpo, there's 3 steps to brown before black.  Now, granted, some instructors tend to rush their students thru, but IMO, unless the student is really deserving, there is usually a long time frame between the 2 ranks.  I think this is good, so as to ensure that the student is really ready for the next step.


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## MJS

PhotonGuy said:


> What you can "sign up" for is the test. That doesn't mean you will pass but you can take the test for the next level. Just because you take the test does not mean you will get to the next level, you can take it and fail. Obviously, you cannot pass and get the next level without the instructor's approval.



With you saying this, am I safe to assume that the student isn't signing up when THEY feel they're ready, but instead, when the teacher feels the student is ready?  The former is not right.  Its up to the TEACHER not the student, when testing happens.  Furthermore, one would like to think that if you're up for promotion, that the odds of passing are higher than failing.  Of course, it is possible to still fail.


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## Daniel Sullivan

James Kovacich said:


> What your stating your dojo does sounds more like a McDojo to me.


I would only agree if passing the test is guaranteed/dependent upon payment.  If there isn't a guaranteed pass for signing up, I wouldn't call it a McDojo based on the OP's description.  

There are many tests that you take whether the teacher feels you're ready or not.  You take all of your tests in school at scheduled times, ready or not.  Anyone can sign up to take the SATs.  That doesn't guarantee a good score.  It just means that they can take the test.


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## Kong Soo Do

PhotonGuy said:


> I've been thinking, when it comes to belt ranks, going from one belt to another can sometimes be a big jump. In the USA you see this particularly with the black belt where the black belt is often put on a pedestal and the jump from brown to black can sometimes be a really big jump. Should it be done like that or perhaps belt rank should just be sequential where there are no big jumps from one belt to another including from brown to black. Much like in school, with some classes that you might take such as History, that you start with History 1 and than each proceeding semester you then take History 2, History 3, and then History 4. History 4 isn't necessarily and harder than History 3, History 2, or History 1, its just sequential and builds on the knowledge gained from the first three courses.



IIRC, the original three colors were white, brown and black.


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## PhotonGuy

frank raud said:


> If I am understanding you correctly, you can sign up for a test you are not prepared enough to take? Using your example , after 3-4 months as a brown belt, you can sign up for the black belt test? Has anyone (or more than one) ever successfully taken the black belt test after such a short period as a brown belt? What form of martial arts do you do, karate, aikido, jiu jitsu or? What are the requirements in your school for a brown belt to take the shodan test?



     I've never known of anybody at my school whose gotten a black belt after 3-4 months of being a high level brown belt, (there are three levels of brown belt, low, middle, and high). Usually, it takes a student about a year after being a high level brown belt to get a black belt. I train in Karate in a style called Shito-Ryu which is somewhat similar to Shotokan. The dojo I train at also teaches Judo.


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## PhotonGuy

MJS said:


> With you saying this, am I safe to assume that the student isn't signing up when THEY feel they're ready, but instead, when the teacher feels the student is ready?



     No, the student signs up when they feel they're ready. Its the student who takes the test at his or her own discretion. Of course, just because a student thinks they're ready doesn't mean they are ready and if that's the case than it will show in the test and they wont pass.


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## PhotonGuy

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I would only agree if passing the test is guaranteed/dependent upon payment.  If there isn't a guaranteed pass for signing up, I wouldn't call it a McDojo based on the OP's description.
> 
> There are many tests that you take whether the teacher feels you're ready or not.  You take all of your tests in school at scheduled times, ready or not.  Anyone can sign up to take the SATs.  That doesn't guarantee a good score.  It just means that they can take the test.



     Exactly. What I would consider a McDojo would be those places that charge five hundred dollars or more to take the black belt test which you get refunded if you fail. Then, even if you do horrible in the test they will still let you pass just so they can keep the money. That's what I call a McDojo.


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## TKDTony2179

PhotonGuy said:


> Not all, but lots of the dojos have the brown belt as the belt rank right before black belt. Sometimes, a dojo might have multiple levels for a colored belt, for instance, brown low, brown middle, brown high, and then black. What Im saying is that the step from brown high to black should not be such a big jump, it shouldn't be much bigger than the step from brown low to brown middle or brown middle to brown high, based on the knowledge, experience, and abilities of the student. Somebody mentioned getting a high school diploma and yes, a student will not get a diploma until they successfully complete their senior year. However, the jump from senior to alumni is not a big jump. As a matter of fact, the senior year is usually a lighter year than some of the other years in high school and usually its the junior year that is academically the hardest. So for a senior in high school to complete the year and get a diploma is not a big jump.



That would depend on the student in high school at that time. I had trouble through out my high school years. I didn't quit. I worked hard through my senior year and got my diploma so for me it was hard every level. Senior year should not be lighter. It should be just as hard as youngsters are getting ready for college.


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## RTKDCMB

PhotonGuy said:


> No, the student signs up when they feel they're ready. Its the student who takes the test at his or her own discretion. Of course, just because a student thinks they're ready doesn't mean they are ready and if that's the case than it will show in the test and they wont pass.



That's a very strange way to do things. Color belt student are, by definition, inexperienced in their art and don't really know when they are truly ready to promote. It is an instructors responsibility to determine where each student is in their training because they have the required experience. Can you imagine a medical student who gets to decide when he is ready to treat patients rather than his teacher and what could happen?
I have seen students who were far from ready for testing who thought they were and students who were ready and thought they were not, it is the instructors responsibility to separate the ones who are and the ones who are not. An instructor should not set their students up to fail, they should only be sent for testing if the instructor feels that they will pass, a student can then either confirm the instructors confidence in them of prove him/her wrong.


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## Cirdan

PhotonGuy said:


> What you can "sign up" for is the test. That doesn't mean you will pass but you can take the test for the next level. Just because you take the test does not mean you will get to the next level, you can take it and fail. Obviously, you cannot pass and get the next level without the instructor's approval.



Thanks for clarifying, but it still sounds like a strange way of doing things. Does your school have a homepage?


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## PhotonGuy

RTKDCMB said:


> That's a very strange way to do things. Color belt student are, by definition, inexperienced in their art and don't really know when they are truly ready to promote. It is an instructors responsibility to determine where each student is in their training because they have the required experience. Can you imagine a medical student who gets to decide when he is ready to treat patients rather than his teacher and what could happen?
> I have seen students who were far from ready for testing who thought they were and students who were ready and thought they were not, it is the instructors responsibility to separate the ones who are and the ones who are not. An instructor should not set their students up to fail, they should only be sent for testing if the instructor feels that they will pass, a student can then either confirm the instructors confidence in them of prove him/her wrong.



A medical student cannot treat patients. In order to treat patients, a person needs to be a licensed doctor. That means they first have to have an M.D. which means they've completed medical school and are no longer a student. They then have to fulfill all the other requirements to get a medical license. Only once they get a medical license can they treat patients. Just about anybody can apply for a medical license but that doesn't mean they will get it. Even I can apply for a medical license having not ever having a single day of medical school, obviously I would be denied a license right away as soon as the medical board found out that I never went to medical school. In the same way, a student at my dojo can take a test for the next rank up if they want to, whether they're ready or not, but if they're not ready they will fail the test and be denied the rank. A medical student who is allowed to decide when he's ready to treat patients would be equivalent to a martial arts student who can decide for himself if he has passed a belt test and can award himself a higher belt, that is not how its done at my dojo. Sometimes people do fail belt tests and that is just part of the learning process. Failure is part of learning and its part of why learning isn't always easy or fun, but from failure comes experience.


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## PhotonGuy

TKDTony2179 said:


> That would depend on the student in high school at that time. I had trouble through out my high school years. I didn't quit. I worked hard through my senior year and got my diploma so for me it was hard every level. Senior year should not be lighter. It should be just as hard as youngsters are getting ready for college.



    Usually the Junior year is the hardest and that's the year when students start applying for college. Although I don't personally know of anybody doing this, I've heard stories of people taking only English and Gym during their senior years. And a senior in high school is hardly a youngster, but that's beside the point.


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## PhotonGuy

Cirdan said:


> Thanks for clarifying, but it still sounds like a strange way of doing things. Does your school have a homepage?



      Yes it does. The homepage would be http://www.karateclassescranford.com/


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## Dirty Dog

PhotonGuy said:


> A medical student cannot treat patients.



Yes, they can. They cannot do so with complete autonomy, but they can and do treat patients.

[Snip to remove remaining completely and totally incorrect information]



PhotonGuy said:


> In the same way, a student at my dojo can take a test for the next rank up if they want to, whether they're ready or not, but if they're not ready they will fail the test and be denied the rank. A medical student who is allowed to decide when he's ready to treat patients would be equivalent to a martial arts student who can decide for himself if he has passed a belt test and can award himself a higher belt, that is not how its done at my dojo. Sometimes people do fail belt tests and that is just part of the learning process. Failure is part of learning and its part of why learning isn't always easy or fun, but from failure comes experience.



I'll agree that this seems an odd (but, I suspect, profitable) way to do things. We do not allow people to test until they're ready. When people want to test but aren't ready, we tell them they're not ready. They learn from that without being allowed to embarass themselves in front of other students.


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## Daniel Sullivan

PhotonGuy said:


> Exactly. What I would consider a McDojo would be those places that charge five hundred dollars or more to take the black belt test which you get refunded if you fail. Then, even if you do horrible in the test they will still let you pass just so they can keep the money. That's what I call a McDojo.


Are your tests held at specific intervals; every four months (April, August, December) for example, and students sign up for the test that is appropriate to the material they've learned?


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## RTKDCMB

PhotonGuy said:


> A medical student cannot treat patients. In order to treat patients, a person needs to be a licensed doctor. That means they first have to have an M.D. which means they've completed medical school and are no longer a student. They then have to fulfill all the other requirements to get a medical license. Only once they get a medical license can they treat patients. Just about anybody can apply for a medical license but that doesn't mean they will get it. Even I can apply for a medical license having not ever having a single day of medical school, obviously I would be denied a license right away as soon as the medical board found out that I never went to medical school. In the same way, a student at my dojo can take a test for the next rank up if they want to, whether they're ready or not, but if they're not ready they will fail the test and be denied the rank. A medical student who is allowed to decide when he's ready to treat patients would be equivalent to a martial arts student who can decide for himself if he has passed a belt test and can award himself a higher belt, that is not how its done at my dojo. Sometimes people do fail belt tests and that is just part of the learning process. Failure is part of learning and its part of why learning isn't always easy or fun, but from failure comes experience.



I will have to work on my analogies.


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## EddieCyrax

PhotonGuy said:


> People have talked about how with some black belt tests, that they cover everything that you learned since white belt. If the black belt test is going to include that then every test should include that.



My schoold does exactly this.  Every rank test is comprehencive of all material learned prior.  Each test gets longer, more physical, and more mentally chanllenging.  The grading is very rigorous on older material.  Green, Brown, Black belts are expected to be extremely proficient with their white, yellow, orange, purple, blue material.

Green, Brown, & Black has a significant step up in expectations for advancement.  Individuals advance on a fairly regular basis through purple, but once they hit blue the time for advancement grows significantly.  Much of this time is ensuring the material has been engrained into the individual.


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## RTKDCMB

EddieCyrax said:


> My schoold does exactly this.  Every rank test is comprehencive of all material learned prior.  Each test gets longer, more physical, and more mentally chanllenging.  The grading is very rigorous on older material.  Green, Brown, Black belts are expected to be extremely proficient with their white, yellow, orange, purple, blue material.
> 
> Green, Brown, & Black has a significant step up in expectations for advancement.  Individuals advance on a fairly regular basis through purple, but once they hit blue the time for advancement grows significantly.  Much of this time is ensuring the material has been engrained into the individual.



You must have some very long grading nights.


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## lklawson

Rich Parsons said:


> Education has kindergarten to 12 th grade. Until you complete all the requirements for a High School Diploma you do not have a high school diploma. You can gradually step up to it with each grade and each class. But until you complete the requirements for a High School Diploma you do not have one. The high school diploma is a big step from nothing. Jobs require a High school diploma or GED. The GED is for those who study and then take a test to qualify for the requirements for a High School diploma. Yet it still does not have the same feeling to it.


GED is equivalent of Batsugun.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson

Rokuta said:


> My observations are: That a martial artist approaching the level of black belt would be expected to know all prior material at a high level of proficiency, and be able to prove it at least once if not more than once during their progression (how else can they teach effectively).


It still bemuses me that black belts and other advanced ranks are expected to be teachers.

Martial arts are a specific skill.  Teaching is a different skill which (typically) requires instruction to learn.  An effective teacher of martial arts must have two skill sets: Martial arts and Teaching.

If I were to go enroll in a Welding school, would I be expected to teach Welding to less experienced students?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Daniel Sullivan

lklawson said:


> It still bemuses me that black belts and other advanced ranks are expected to be teachers.
> 
> Martial arts are a specific skill.  Teaching is a different skill which (typically) requires instruction to learn.  An effective teacher of martial arts must have two skill sets: Martial arts and Teaching.
> 
> If I were to go enroll in a Welding school, would I be expected to teach Welding to less experienced students?
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


I've read more than a few interviews with old master of Japanese arts.  A common experience seems to be a lot of drilling and the teacher demonstrating things a few times and then telling the students to do as they do.  In all such accounts, the senior students end up figuring the stuff out along the way and showing the junior students how to do it.  Thus, a black belt would end up teaching without being an actual instructor.  Which is probably how the dynamic began.

After a certain point, dan grades shift from representing what you've accomplished to reflecting what you're doing to pass the art to others, so the idea of a fourth or fifth dan being expected to teach is in my opinion reasonable.  But I don't personally feel that first degree students should be utilized as free instructors.


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## lklawson

MJS said:


> IMHO, I think nowadays, too many people put too much into the belts, rather than the quality of the material.  Just because someone is a orange belt, a green belt, or even black, does not mean that they're any good.  In many of the arts that I have experience in, there is usually a longer period of time between brown and black.  In Kenpo, there's 3 steps to brown before black.  Now, granted, some instructors tend to rush their students thru, but IMO, unless the student is really deserving, there is usually a long time frame between the 2 ranks.  I think this is good, so as to ensure that the student is really ready for the next step.


We've all seen black belts who couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag and we've all seen white belts who step on the mat already a handful.  Skill is more important than the color of the obi.  I stopped caring about about belts at some point.  To the point that I'd kinda opted to be a "professional brown belt" ...that is, until, the one of the instructors at that dojo got tired of it and I got an "ambush test."  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I've read more than a few interviews with old master of Japanese arts.  A common experience seems to be a lot of drilling and the teacher demonstrating things a few times and then telling the students to do as they do.  In all such accounts, the senior students end up figuring the stuff out along the way and showing the junior students how to do it.  Thus, a black belt would end up teaching without being an actual instructor.  Which is probably how the dynamic began.


Which is, quite honestly, a really inefficient way to learn how to Teach.  The "sink or swim" method can teach a person how to dog paddle, but you're not likely to get an olympic breast-stroke out of it.  For best results, instruction is the most efficient method.  But, yes, I've had any number of people relate to me, "when I was in Japan, the Sensie would just show the technique once or twice and then you had to figure it out."  Also not a good way of instruction.  Too easy to miss subtle, but important, elements.



> After a certain point, dan grades shift from representing what you've accomplished to reflecting what you're doing to pass the art to others, so the idea of a fourth or fifth dan being expected to teach is in my opinion reasonable.  But I don't personally feel that first degree students should be utilized as free instructors.


Oh, if the *want* to be an assistant, that's fine, IMO.  But there's an assumption that every advanced student is somehow automatically an instructor.  Maybe they hate people, suck at teaching, and their only skill is being able to fight.

It seems unique to asian martial arts.  Few people go ask Tyson to teach them to box.  But *his coach*...  Same went for historic Fencing.  If you wanted to learn to fence you went to a Salle or paid for personal instruction.  What you didn't do is go hire a Duelist to teach you.

Ah well, enough exposition on this, I suppose.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson

Kong Soo Do said:


> IIRC, the original three colors were white, brown and black.


Original colors?  Mudansha, Yudansha.  Before that, Menkyo Kaiden and other various and sundry licenses.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Daniel Sullivan

lklawson said:


> We've all seen black belts who couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag and we've all seen white belts who step on the mat already a handful.  Skill is more important than the color of the obi.  I stopped caring about about belts at some point.  To the point that I'd kinda opted to be a "professional brown belt" ...that is, until, the one of the instructors at that dojo got tired of it and I got an "ambush test."
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


Belts are a nice way to tell at a glance who is where in the curriculum.  From what I understand (a judoka might have more insight), Kano initially used them because he taught in more than one location and needed a way to tell who was where in the class.  He later added other colors to provide incentive, but initially, the function was simply a way of distinguishing between the level of students he wasn't working with everyday.


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## lklawson

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Belts are a nice way to tell at a glance who is where in the curriculum.  From what I understand (a judoka might have more insight), Kano initially used them because he taught in more than one location and needed a way to tell who was where in the class.  He later added other colors to provide incentive, but initially, the function was simply a way of distinguishing between the level of students he wasn't working with everyday.


My recollection is that it's a mish-mash.  Dan ranks from Kano (swiped from Go).  Kyu ranks from Kendo.  Colored belts to represent kyu ranks, ims, Funakoshi.

This one is a quick read: http://www.minrec.org/wilson/pdfs/History of Belts and Ranks.pdf

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## PhotonGuy

Dirty Dog said:


> I'll agree that this seems an odd (but, I suspect, profitable) way to do things. We do not allow people to test until they're ready. When people want to test but aren't ready, we tell them they're not ready. They learn from that without being allowed to embarass themselves in front of other students.



    If your instructors don't let people test until they're ready, than why even test them in the first place? If your instructors know that a student is ready than they can promote them right then and there and a test wouldn't be necessary.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

PhotonGuy said:


> If your instructors don't let people test until they're ready, than why even test them in the first place? If your instructors know that a student is ready than they can promote them right then and there and a test wouldn't be necessary.


To a certain extent, I agree.  On the other hand, the test itself is a lesson for the student and also shows the instructor things that will not come out during regular class.

The test places the student under a degree of additional pressure that is not present in a regular class.  Often, students will make mistakes at a test that they don't ordinarily make during class because of the closer scrutiny and perhaps an audience of non-students.  

That a student may choke or make a mistake at a test isn't unexpected; the instructor wants to see how the student handles it.  Which is something that I feel is the one of the real reasons for gradings (McDojo-ism not withstanding).


----------



## Dirty Dog

PhotonGuy said:


> If your instructors don't let people test until they're ready, than why even test them in the first place? If your instructors know that a student is ready than they can promote them right then and there and a test wouldn't be necessary.



We test them for a number of reasons.
The "test" gives them a chance to show off for family and friends.
The "test" lets them show the other students (who, especially at lower ranks, are focused on their OWN performance) their progress.
The "test" puts them in front of the group, which puts a new and different level of stress on the student.
Testing is fun.
I bet you can think of a few other obvious reasons on your own...


----------



## TKDTony2179

PhotonGuy said:


> Usually the Junior year is the hardest and that's the year when students start applying for college. Although I don't personally know of anybody doing this, I've heard stories of people taking only English and Gym during their senior years. And a senior in high school is hardly a youngster, but that's beside the point.




Yea, I knew some students while back in high school would have enough credit to graduate and they was already taken college course. Not everyone is that good. 

The rank under my black belt is red belt and below that is our brown. I would think regardless of color that what ever the requirments at that level should be addressed and if practice your techinques and get those requirements down in 3-4 months then when time for testing is brought up you should know that you are ready. If you hare having trouble ask an instructor or the head instructor so you can fix it. If not, then test. The instructor should know you are ready for the black belt when he passes you. The myth thing sounds crazy because yes he/she should know if you are ready and say you may test but wait for he/she to say you may test is crazy to me. 

If the curriculm is right and the months feel right then yes you should test on your own when testing time comes about.  Also the myth thing sounds like something that pleagues the martial arts. Like they are holding on to something to prevent you from succeeding. That is just my opinion.


----------



## TKDTony2179

lklawson said:


> It still bemuses me that black belts and other advanced ranks are expected to be teachers.
> 
> Martial arts are a specific skill. Teaching is a different skill which (typically) requires instruction to learn. An effective teacher of martial arts must have two skill sets: Martial arts and Teaching.
> 
> If I were to go enroll in a Welding school, would I be expected to teach Welding to less experienced students?
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



I would agree on that. Although you have learn something, getting it across properly is harder than what it seem. Especially certain age groups. I always suggest to new instructors to tutor first and help out in class so they will see how the head teacher does things so they will learn what say that allow them to be good teachers.


----------



## RTKDCMB

lklawson said:


> It still bemuses me that black belts and other advanced ranks are expected to be teachers.
> 
> 
> Martial arts are a specific skill.  Teaching is a different skill which (typically) requires instruction to learn.  An effective teacher of martial arts must have two skill sets: Martial arts and Teaching.
> 
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



Martial arts are voluntary, a black belt may be expected to teach but they have a choice. Not everybody is cut out to be an instructor and not everybody wants to be.


----------



## EddieCyrax

RTKDCMB said:


> You must have some very long grading nights.



My Green Belt test lasted 4 hours, with this being the beginning of Brown......


----------



## EddieCyrax

Tests identify areas of deficiency in the student.  How well does the student know the material, How well do they know the material under pressure, how well do they know the material when they are tired, etc.

Tests assist in the learning process.  Even if there were no belt colors, I would still see tests as a valuable tool in one's training.

Just my $.02


----------



## PhotonGuy

lklawson said:


> We've all seen black belts who couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag and we've all seen white belts who step on the mat already a handful.  Skill is more important than the color of the obi.  I stopped caring about about belts at some point.  To the point that I'd kinda opted to be a "professional brown belt" ...that is, until, the one of the instructors at that dojo got tired of it and I got an "ambush test."
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



   Yes I agree that belt color can be sometimes over-rated just like grades in academics (A,B,C,D,F) can also be over-rated. I believe that the belt color that the student wears should be the result of the student's skill level and abilities, not the other way around. To say that a student is good because they wear a particular belt color would be putting the cart before the horse. While I do think some people can get over obsessed with belt color just like some people can get over obsessed with academic grades I don't think theres anything wrong with wanting to get a certain belt color just like there is nothing wrong with wanting to get a certain GPA. Some people are obsessed with getting straight As in academics and while as I said before, grades can be overrated, there is nothing wrong with wanting to get As. There is also nothing wrong with wanting to get a black belt. Getting a black belt is just like getting an A except that a black belt is for martial arts and an A is for academics. Aside from that there is no difference.


----------



## WaterGal

lklawson said:


> It still bemuses me that black belts and other advanced ranks are expected to be teachers.
> 
> Martial arts are a specific skill.  Teaching is a different skill which (typically) requires instruction to learn.  An effective teacher of martial arts must have two skill sets: Martial arts and Teaching.
> 
> If I were to go enroll in a Welding school, would I be expected to teach Welding to less experienced students?
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



Agreed.  Having a black belt alone definitely doesn't qualify you to be a teacher. It's one thing to know how to do a technique, and another thing entirely to break it down and explain it clearly and effectively. Not to mention running a class, presenting with authority and keep the students active and engaged.  Those are whole other skill sets that have to be learned.

I do think that martial arts can be a good place for people to learn how to be teachers and leaders, though, if they wish. If you know how to do the techniques, then you can assist your teacher (warming up the class, helping a student with their new form, etc), and gradually take on more responsibility as you build your teaching and leading skills.  And I think that's a really valuable skill for people, especially young people getting ready to enter the workforce, to learn.

But just throwing someone in after their dan test and expecting them to run a class by themself is not a good way to ensure good teaching at your school.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

WaterGal said:


> Agreed.  Having a black belt alone definitely doesn't qualify you to be a teacher. It's one thing to know how to do a technique, and another thing entirely to break it down and explain it clearly and effectively. Not to mention running a class, presenting with authority and keep the students active and engaged.  Those are whole other skill sets that have to be learned.
> 
> I do think that martial arts can be a good place for people to learn how to be teachers and leaders, though, if they wish. If you know how to do the techniques, then you can assist your teacher (warming up the class, helping a student with their new form, etc), and gradually take on more responsibility as you build your teaching and leading skills.  And I think that's a really valuable skill for people, especially young people getting ready to enter the workforce, to learn.
> 
> But just throwing someone in after their dan test and expecting them to run a class by themself is not a good way to ensure good teaching at your school.


This became the norm at a place I used to train.  GM was burned out and stopped hiring actual instructors.  Worst part is that they were all under eighteen.


----------



## PhotonGuy

WaterGal said:


> Agreed.  Having a black belt alone definitely doesn't qualify you to be a teacher. It's one thing to know how to do a technique, and another thing entirely to break it down and explain it clearly and effectively. Not to mention running a class, presenting with authority and keep the students active and engaged.  Those are whole other skill sets that have to be learned.
> 
> I do think that martial arts can be a good place for people to learn how to be teachers and leaders, though, if they wish. If you know how to do the techniques, then you can assist your teacher (warming up the class, helping a student with their new form, etc), and gradually take on more responsibility as you build your teaching and leading skills.  And I think that's a really valuable skill for people, especially young people getting ready to enter the workforce, to learn.
> 
> But just throwing someone in after their dan test and expecting them to run a class by themself is not a good way to ensure good teaching at your school.



      That's why you start out as an assistant instructor. You have to be an assistant instructor before you can be the head instructor of a class. A new black belt might not be at the level where they can lead a class but I see no reason why a black belt can't be an assistant instructor. At my dojo you're sometimes expected to do some assistant teaching when you're a brown belt.


----------



## RTKDCMB

lklawson said:


> We've all seen black belts who couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag



Like these guys:


----------



## RTKDCMB

WaterGal said:


> Agreed.  Having a black belt alone definitely doesn't qualify you to be a teacher. It's one thing to know how to do a technique, and another thing entirely to break it down and explain it clearly and effectively. Not to mention running a class, presenting with authority and keep the students active and engaged.  Those are whole other skill sets that have to be learned.



Some people are good at teaching others, some are good at building a school, some have good skill and knowledge and some have good character.

A person can have good knowledge and skill, be good at building a school and good at teaching others and be a complete meat head and some can have good knowledge and skill and good character and still not be good a teaching.


----------



## MJS

PhotonGuy said:


> No, the student signs up when they feel they're ready. Its the student who takes the test at his or her own discretion. Of course, just because a student thinks they're ready doesn't mean they are ready and if that's the case than it will show in the test and they wont pass.



IMHO, that is a poor policy to have.  Why?  Because during my years teaching, I've had more than one student come up to me, and ask to learn more, after supposedly learning what I had just taught them, only to watch them perform, and well, to be blunt, they sucked!  Sorry, but I couldn't feel good about myself, if I allow someone to test, when they're really not ready.


----------



## MJS

PhotonGuy said:


> Yes I agree that belt color can be sometimes over-rated just like grades in academics (A,B,C,D,F) can also be over-rated. I believe that the belt color that the student wears should be the result of the student's skill level and abilities, not the other way around. To say that a student is good because they wear a particular belt color would be putting the cart before the horse. While I do think some people can get over obsessed with belt color just like some people can get over obsessed with academic grades I don't think theres anything wrong with wanting to get a certain belt color just like there is nothing wrong with wanting to get a certain GPA. Some people are obsessed with getting straight As in academics and while as I said before, grades can be overrated, there is nothing wrong with wanting to get As. There is also nothing wrong with wanting to get a black belt. Getting a black belt is just like getting an A except that a black belt is for martial arts and an A is for academics. Aside from that there is no difference.



Of course, the difference is, out of all those people who 'want' to get a certain GPA or certain belt, how many actually apply themselves, and really bust their *** both in and out of the dojo?  Yes, I understand we all have lives outside of the dojo.  However, if the only time you actually do any practice, is during class, well...the results are going to speak for themselves.


----------



## PhotonGuy

MJS said:


> Of course, the difference is, out of all those people who 'want' to get a certain GPA or certain belt, how many actually apply themselves, and really bust their *** both in and out of the dojo?  Yes, I understand we all have lives outside of the dojo.  However, if the only time you actually do any practice, is during class, well...the results are going to speak for themselves.



    That is why lots of your training you do at home or on your own outside of class. At this point, as a matter of fact, I would say most of my training I do on my own and not at the dojo.


----------



## MJS

PhotonGuy said:


> That is why lots of your training you do at home or on your own outside of class. At this point, as a matter of fact, I would say most of my training I do on my own and not at the dojo.



My point was...everyone wants something, but if they don't put in the time and effort, aka: the blood, sweat and tears, then no, they won't get it.  If someone trains in and out of class, the odds are higher for those people vs. the ones that only train in class, never train much outside of class, and rarely show up to class.


----------



## KELLYG

A couple of thought on testing.  Where I train the black belt test is an event.   It is a physical test that lasts anywhere from 3 to 7 hours, and is a one day event. Testing from high red to black, all the poomse, blocking, kicking, techniques are gone over as well as endurance, breaking, sparing with a single opponent or multiple opponents.  The test is designed to add pressure, mental exhaustion, and physical exhaustion.  Some times it is not about what you know, but how it is used while the pressure is on.   I have seen people that I thought would never pass excell and I have seen people that I thought would pass, hands down no problem, give up on themselves or crumble under pressure.  These tests are given from first to third degree blackbelts.  The higher belt testing is more of a demonstration...


----------



## PhotonGuy

MJS said:


> My point was...everyone wants something, but if they don't put in the time and effort, aka: the blood, sweat and tears, then no, they won't get it.  If someone trains in and out of class, the odds are higher for those people vs. the ones that only train in class, never train much outside of class, and rarely show up to class.



    Yes, you're right that you do need to work hard to get what you want be it in the martial arts or anything else. However, you also have to know what you're doing and make sure you're working the right way. You don't want to work hard at doing things the wrong way, if you do you will only get better at doing it the wrong way. You do need to train hard but you need more than that, you also need to train smart.


----------



## PhotonGuy

MJS said:


> IMHO, that is a poor policy to have.  Why?  Because during my years teaching, I've had more than one student come up to me, and ask to learn more, after supposedly learning what I had just taught them, only to watch them perform, and well, to be blunt, they sucked!  Sorry, but I couldn't feel good about myself, if I allow someone to test, when they're really not ready.



     Every dojo has its own system and its own way of doing things. I once went to this dojo that didn't even have regularly scheduled belt tests, rather when you thought you were ready for the next belt you would tell your sensai that you wanted to test and he would schedule a test for you. You actually had to be the judge of your own progress in that you had to tell the sensai when you wanted to test if you thought you could pass. It doesn't mean you will pass but as I said, each place has its own ranking methods and testing methods.


----------



## MJS

PhotonGuy said:


> Yes, you're right that you do need to work hard to get what you want be it in the martial arts or anything else. However, you also have to know what you're doing and make sure you're working the right way. You don't want to work hard at doing things the wrong way, if you do you will only get better at doing it the wrong way. You do need to train hard but you need more than that, you also need to train smart.



I agree.  Did my posts that I've made imply otherwise?


----------



## MJS

PhotonGuy said:


> Every dojo has its own system and its own way of doing things. I once went to this dojo that didn't even have regularly scheduled belt tests, rather when you thought you were ready for the next belt you would tell your sensai that you wanted to test and he would schedule a test for you. You actually had to be the judge of your own progress in that you had to tell the sensai when you wanted to test if you thought you could pass. It doesn't mean you will pass but as I said, each place has its own ranking methods and testing methods.



And like I said, it's a poor policy to have.  The student should be more concerned with knowing the material, being able to understand and perform it, especially under pressure, not scheduling their next belt test when THEY think they're ready.  One word comes to mind for schools like that; McDojo.


----------



## PhotonGuy

MJS said:


> I agree.  Did my posts that I've made imply otherwise?



     No they didn't. I was just pointing out something important. Working hard but not working smart, I've made that mistake myself.


----------



## PhotonGuy

MJS said:


> And like I said, it's a poor policy to have.  The student should be more concerned with knowing the material, being able to understand and perform it, especially under pressure, not scheduling their next belt test when THEY think they're ready.  One word comes to mind for schools like that; McDojo.



     Put it this way, a person can apply to any college they want, even a really hard college such as Harvard, at their own discretion. It doesn't mean they will get in but a person doesn't need to be told they're allowed to apply to Harvard of whatever just in order to apply. Any Joe Blow can apply to Harvard but getting in is an entirely different story. Same thing with belt tests, at my dojo anybody can apply to test for their next belt but it doesn't mean they will get it, as a matter of fact people fail quite a bit at my dojo as the standards for going up a belt are high, especially for the high level belts they are very high. So my dojo is not a McDojo. Just because anybody can apply to Harvard, although getting in is a different story, does not make Harvard a McCollege.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

MJS said:


> And like I said, it's a poor policy to have.  The student should be more concerned with knowing the material, being able to understand and perform it, especially under pressure, not scheduling their next belt test when THEY think they're ready.


Agreed.  At the same time, the school needs to treat the belts like markers and not like some kind of talisman or substitute for a fight record.



MJS said:


> One word comes to mind for schools like that; McDojo.


I would need to know a *lot* more about this school before implying that it's a McDojo.


----------



## MJS

PhotonGuy said:


> No they didn't. I was just pointing out something important. Working hard but not working smart, I've made that mistake myself.



I think its safe to say we've all, at some point in our training, done that.  You're right though...training incorrectly isn't going to help.


----------



## MJS

PhotonGuy said:


> Put it this way, a person can apply to any college they want, even a really hard college such as Harvard, at their own discretion. It doesn't mean they will get in but a person doesn't need to be told they're allowed to apply to Harvard of whatever just in order to apply. Any Joe Blow can apply to Harvard but getting in is an entirely different story. Same thing with belt tests, at my dojo anybody can apply to test for their next belt but it doesn't mean they will get it, as a matter of fact people fail quite a bit at my dojo as the standards for going up a belt are high, especially for the high level belts they are very high. So my dojo is not a McDojo. Just because anybody can apply to Harvard, although getting in is a different story, does not make Harvard a McCollege.



We may have to agree to disagree but let me ask you this:  What are the benefits of letting the student decide vs. letting the instructor decide?  IMHO, I would think that someone who's been training 10yrs, 20yrs, etc, would be a better judge (providing they're actually a quality teacher) of someone's skill level, rather than a newbie to training, who's been at it for a month and 'thinks' they're ready, because they 'know' all the material.  There's a big difference between knowing something and actually being able to say they really know it and can make it work.  

As for your example...when a student is going to test, wouldn't it make sense to actually really be prepared and stand a very good chance of passing vs the student who thinks they know what they're doing, only to get out there on the floor, and make a fool of themselves?  If you were a straight A student in school, you'd probably stand a better chance of getting in Harvard vs someone who's GPA is much lower.  Why put yourself thru the embarrassment of getting laughed out the door?  Harvard would be a McCollege if they allowed the below average student to get in.  Now, as far as the dojo goes....if the inst is actually failing the students, well, good for them if they're not ready.  But if they're passing them because they don't want to upset anyone or risk losing a student, sorry, those places are mcdojos.  If they're only concerned about the money and nothing else, well......


----------



## MJS

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Agreed.  At the same time, the school needs to treat the belts like markers and not like some kind of talisman or substitute for a fight record.



Agreed.




> I would need to know a *lot* more about this school before implying that it's a McDojo.



True.  Yet look at some arts out there. The mere mention of the name of the art, makes people call it a mcdojo.  You're right...we don't know much about the school in question.  Perhaps the OP could provide some info.  But, for me, any school that let's the students decide when they're ready, makes be a bit suspect.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

MJS said:


> True.  Yet look at some arts out there. The mere mention of the name of the art, makes people call it a mcdojo.  You're right...we don't know much about the school in question.  Perhaps the OP could provide some info.  But, for me, any school that let's the students decide when they're ready, makes be a bit suspect.



It isn't what I would do, but so long as paying doesn't guarantee passage, I don't see anything inherently wrong with it.  Drivers license tests, SATs, and essentially any athletic tryout amount to testing at a scheduled time.  People participate hoping to pass the test, score highly so as to enhance their chances at college entrance, or to make the cut respectively.  

At this point, we don't even know what the testing fees are, or if there are any (I think the OP mentioned that there is a fee).

On a side note, I notice that people tend to cry McDojo or are dismissive anytime a grading practice deviates from what they are accustomed to.  The comment about "what do you expect from an art where it only takes six years to fourth dan" is dismissive; the poster indicated that he's accustomed to second dan students having something along the lines of three decades in, which in most kyu/dan systems is enough time for a hachidan.  Others say that a less than four year TKD student isn't a "real blackbelt," or that TKD schools that promote to black belt in less time are belt factories, ignoring that in Korea, the nation of origin of the art, it only takes one year.

The standards that such posters hold up are fine and I have no criticism of them.  But those posters are judging other schools by what they're accustomed to rather than on what is reasonable or what is normative for the art in question.


----------



## Dirty Dog

PhotonGuy said:


> Put it this way, a person can apply to any college they want, even a really hard college such as Harvard, at their own discretion. It doesn't mean they will get in but a person doesn't need to be told they're allowed to apply to Harvard of whatever just in order to apply. Any Joe Blow can apply to Harvard but getting in is an entirely different story. Same thing with belt tests, at my dojo anybody can apply to test for their next belt but it doesn't mean they will get it, as a matter of fact people fail quite a bit at my dojo as the standards for going up a belt are high, especially for the high level belts they are very high. So my dojo is not a McDojo. Just because anybody can apply to Harvard, although getting in is a different story, does not make Harvard a McCollege.



Sounds like a great way to increase income...


----------



## Jaeimseu

PhotonGuy said:


> Put it this way, a person can apply to any college they want, even a really hard college such as Harvard, at their own discretion. It doesn't mean they will get in but a person doesn't need to be told they're allowed to apply to Harvard of whatever just in order to apply. Any Joe Blow can apply to Harvard but getting in is an entirely different story. Same thing with belt tests, at my dojo anybody can apply to test for their next belt but it doesn't mean they will get it, as a matter of fact people fail quite a bit at my dojo as the standards for going up a belt are high, especially for the high level belts they are very high. So my dojo is not a McDojo. Just because anybody can apply to Harvard, although getting in is a different story, does not make Harvard a McCollege.



I'm not sure this is an appropriate analogy. A freshman at Harvard can't become a sophomore because he feels he is ready. He has to complete the coursework and pass the required tests before he moves to the next level. If your school takes applications for enrollment and only accepts the top 9 or 10% of applicants, then the analogy works better.

If Harvard allowed students to bypass levels by paying a fee for a test whenever a student wanted, it might become a McCollege. It certainly wouldn't maintain its current reputation.

Sent from my SHV-E210K using Tapatalk 2


----------



## frank raud

MJS said:


> Agreed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> True.  Yet look at some arts out there. The mere mention of the name of the art, makes people call it a mcdojo.  You're right...we don't know much about the school in question.  Perhaps the OP could provide some info.  But, for me, any school that let's the students decide when they're ready, makes be a bit suspect.



Any Judoka could tell you about the school, Yonezuka is a legend. I don't know if he teaches the karate as well, but the judo is first rate.    http://www.cranfordjkc.com/Yonezuka.htm


----------



## PhotonGuy

MJS said:


> We may have to agree to disagree but let me ask you this:  What are the benefits of letting the student decide vs. letting the instructor decide?  IMHO, I would think that someone who's been training 10yrs, 20yrs, etc, would be a better judge (providing they're actually a quality teacher) of someone's skill level, rather than a newbie to training, who's been at it for a month and 'thinks' they're ready, because they 'know' all the material.  There's a big difference between knowing something and actually being able to say they really know it and can make it work.
> 
> As for your example...when a student is going to test, wouldn't it make sense to actually really be prepared and stand a very good chance of passing vs the student who thinks they know what they're doing, only to get out there on the floor, and make a fool of themselves?  If you were a straight A student in school, you'd probably stand a better chance of getting in Harvard vs someone who's GPA is much lower.  Why put yourself thru the embarrassment of getting laughed out the door?  Harvard would be a McCollege if they allowed the below average student to get in.  Now, as far as the dojo goes....if the inst is actually failing the students, well, good for them if they're not ready.  But if they're passing them because they don't want to upset anyone or risk losing a student, sorry, those places are mcdojos.  If they're only concerned about the money and nothing else, well......



    When somebody gets denied acceptance at Harvard or any other university they don't get laughed out the door or majorly embarrassed, usually they just get a card in the mail telling them they're not accepted. When people fail belt tests at my dojo they don't get laughed at or embarrassed and while they might be disappointed or let down because they failed, they're not made fun of for it and they usually learn from their failures.

     The problem with the instructor deciding when a student can test, especially if its a large dojo with lots of students is that it would be really hard if not impossible for an instructor to keep track of every student's progress. Imagine if you were running a dojo, you have over 100 students, and you have to know by heart where every student's progress level is and in addition to that it keeps changing as students gain progress as they keep working at it. That's why students should choose if they want to sign up for an up coming promotion exam, A sensai could not keep track of everybody.


----------



## Dirty Dog

PhotonGuy said:


> The problem with the instructor deciding when a student can test, especially if its a large dojo with lots of students is that it would be really hard if not impossible for an instructor to keep track of every student's progress. Imagine if you were running a dojo, you have over 100 students, and you have to know by heart where every student's progress level is and in addition to that it keeps changing as students gain progress as they keep working at it. That's why students should choose if they want to sign up for an up coming promotion exam, A sensai could not keep track of everybody.



Nonsense. That's all I have to say. Complete nonsense. 
I watch every student in every class. It's not the least bit difficult to keep track of who is about ready to test, or who is going to need a few more months.


----------



## Jaeimseu

Dirty Dog said:


> Nonsense. That's all I have to say. Complete nonsense.
> I watch every student in every class. It's not the least bit difficult to keep track of who is about ready to test, or who is going to need a few more months.



I agree. Any instructor who sees the students on a regular basis should have a good idea of individual students strengths and weaknesses.

One of the biggest advantages of regularly scheduled tests is a time frame that instructors and students can follow. It creates a sense of urgency and motivation for students to "get ready" and instructors to "get them ready." Of course, the system can be abused, but that doesn't mean it's a bad system.

Sent from my SHV-E210K using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Rokuta

WaterGal said:


> Agreed.  Having a black belt alone definitely doesn't qualify you to be a teacher. It's one thing to know how to do a technique, and another thing entirely to break it down and explain it clearly and effectively. Not to mention running a class, presenting with authority and keep the students active and engaged.  Those are whole other skill sets that have to be learned.
> 
> I do think that martial arts can be a good place for people to learn how to be teachers and leaders, though, if they wish. If you know how to do the techniques, then you can assist your teacher (warming up the class, helping a student with their new form, etc), and gradually take on more responsibility as you build your teaching and leading skills.  And I think that's a really valuable skill for people, especially young people getting ready to enter the workforce, to learn.
> 
> But just throwing someone in after their dan test and expecting them to run a class by themself is not a good way to ensure good teaching at your school.



I completely agree. Expecting someone to train to black belt, or proficiency in the basics, and then just sending them out to teach with no prior experience is not reasonable. My teacher has higher belts learn to teach by instructing lower belts and beginning students in small portions of the material. During this process he observes, corrects technique if needed, and gives pointers on teaching. I haven't been to other Genbukan dojos and groups so I don't know if this is universal or if it is just sensei's method. But the high brown belt students are excellent teachers so he must be doing something right. 

So I really should have been more clear before.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Personally, I think most of you are making way more out of this than it is.  I don't see anything inherently wrong with it.  I wouldn't do it myself, but so long as promotions aren't tied to payment I think it's fine.  

I don't know the reason why the school does it this way.  There could be numerous reasons; a lesson to the students about readiness vs. the perception of readiness, getting tired of students asking when they could test, or perhaps he simply prefers that system.

Given what Frank Raud said about the school, it doesn't sound like it's a McDojo.


----------



## Grenadier

PhotonGuy said:


> When somebody gets denied acceptance at Harvard or any other university they don't get laughed out the door or majorly embarrassed, usually they just get a card in the mail telling them they're not accepted. When people fail belt tests at my dojo they don't get laughed at or embarrassed and while they might be disappointed or let down because they failed, they're not made fun of for it and they usually learn from their failures.



Good to see that your people practice common courtesy when it comes to such things.  Indeed, it can be embarassing enough as it is, when a student fails an exam, and someone who would laugh at such an individual doesn't belong in the dojo.  



> The problem with the instructor deciding when a student can test, especially if its a large dojo with lots of students is that it would be really hard if not impossible for an instructor to keep track of every student's progress. Imagine if you were running a dojo, you have over 100 students, and you have to know by heart where every student's progress level is and in addition to that it keeps changing as students gain progress as they keep working at it.



With the exception of the young kids (who are in a separate program), I do know by heart, where every student's progress level is, and this is a dojo that has over 100 people in it.  



> That's why students should choose if they want to sign up for an up coming promotion exam, A sensai could not keep track of everybody.



A sensei should be able to keep track.  If he can't keep track of every last student, then that's why he has assistant instructors who can serve as another pair of eyes.  Between a senior instructor and his assistant instructors, there is no reason why they shouldn't be able to keep track of every student's progress.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Personally, I think most of you are making way more out of this than it is.  I don't see anything inherently wrong with it.  I wouldn't do it myself, but so long as promotions aren't tied to payment I think it's fine.


     Promotion tests at my dojo do cost money. They aren't over the top but you do have to pay a small fee which you don't get back whether or not you pass. Some places charge exorbitant prices for promotion which you get refunded if you don't pass. They then let a student pass even if they to really bad so that they can keep the money. At my place you have to pay a small fee which you don't get back because you're not paying for the rank you're paying for the instructors. You're paying for their time and skill that it takes to test you. So that is why you have to pay to take promotion exams.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

PhotonGuy said:


> Promotion tests at my dojo do cost money. They aren't over the top but you do have to pay a small fee which you don't get back whether or not you pass. Some places charge exorbitant prices for promotion which you get refunded if you don't pass. They then let a student pass even if they to really bad so that they can keep the money. At my place you have to pay a small fee which you don't get back because you're not paying for the rank you're paying for the instructors. You're paying for their time and skill that it takes to test you. So that is why you have to pay to take promotion exams.


I figured that there was a fee, but to clarify, when I say promotions being tied to payment, I mean schools that essentially promote you because you pay rather than because you passed.

I don't think that a fee for grading is necesarilly bad, so long as it isn't being used to financially gouge your students.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Grenadier said:


> A sensei should be able to keep track.  If he can't keep track of every last student, then that's why he has assistant instructors who can serve as another pair of eyes.  Between a senior instructor and his assistant instructors, there is no reason why they shouldn't be able to keep track of every student's progress.


I suspect that it is less likely that the sensei has difficulty keeping track than it is a strategy for conflict avoidance; if they sign up for an announced grading, they haven't been denied the opportunity to promote.  If they don't pass the test, the sensei can point to their test performance.  

As I said, it isn't how I do grading, but I don't see any issues with it.


----------



## WaterGal

PhotonGuy said:


> The problem with the instructor deciding when a student can test, especially if its a large dojo with lots of students is that it would be really hard if not impossible for an instructor to keep track of every student's progress. Imagine if you were running a dojo, you have over 100 students, and you have to know by heart where every student's progress level is and in addition to that it keeps changing as students gain progress as they keep working at it. That's why students should choose if they want to sign up for an up coming promotion exam, A sensai could not keep track of everybody.



If you run a dojo and can't keep track of the progress of _people you teach multiple times every week_, especially if you're using a belt system and so you know more-or-less where they are by looking at their waist, then you need to be paying more attention to your students.


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## lklawson

Daniel Sullivan said:


> The comment about "what do you expect from an art where it only takes six years to fourth dan" is dismissive; the poster indicated that he's accustomed to second dan students having something along the lines of three decades in, which in most kyu/dan systems is enough time for a hachidan.  Others say that a less than four year TKD student isn't a "real blackbelt," or that TKD schools that promote to black belt in less time are belt factories, ignoring that in Korea, the nation of origin of the art, it only takes one year.
> 
> The standards that such posters hold up are fine and I have no criticism of them.  But those posters are judging other schools by what they're accustomed to rather than on what is reasonable or what is normative for the art in question.


Ignore them.  The comments expose a lack of experience in the martial arts.  Every school, organization, and system all have independent standards, unique to themselves, about what any given rank within that system means.  They are completely irrelevant to any other school, organization, or system.  Just because a "green belt" in one system represents some given set of skills and experience unique to that system doesn't mean it has any bearing whatsoever upon some other system.  If you can't draw any comparisons about "green belt" what makes people think they can draw any conclusions about "black belt?"  That's just silly.  Sorry folks, but you're going to have to divorce yourself from what Hollywood has been telling you "black belt" means.  Your opinion is, frankly, irrelevant to the standards of that school, organization, or system.

About the only time that there are some points of comparison is when the schools and/or organizing bodies make deliberate effort to allow for that.  One prime example is Judo in the U.S.  Most Judo schools join an organization which regulates the standards within that group.  The school subsumes their standards to that of the organization.  Similarly, I've lost track of how many independent Judo organizations there are in the U.S.  But most of them recognize dan ranks from the other organizations.  They've all agreed upon a similar standard.  This is very unusual.  Last time I heard ITF Tae Kwon Do, ATA Tae Kwon Do, and WTF Tae Kwon Do didn't necessarily recognize belt ranks from the other and were in the habit of offering "provisional" belt ranks, often lower than what had been earned in the other organization.  Heck, they can't even agree on how to westernize the spelling; Taekwondo, Taekwon-do, etc.  

C'mon now guys, if ITF/WTF/ATA Tae Kwon Do can't agree on what skills any given belt rank should represent, what the devil makes you think that Goshindo (for instance) should have any credibility on what a TKD black belt "should be" or how long it "should take" to achieve it?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## RTKDCMB

Daniel Sullivan said:


> The comment about "what do you expect from an art where it only takes six years to fourth dan" is dismissive; the poster indicated that he's accustomed to second dan students having something along the lines of three decades in, which in most kyu/dan systems is enough time for a hachidan.



I am sure you did not do it on purpose but you have sightly misconstrued (my word for the day) what I had said. Firstly it was 4th Dans that had 3 decades in, not 2nd Dans. Secondly, what I meant from the comment was that only 4th Dans and above in that system can promote color belt ranks because it only takes 6 years to get there and in a system where it takes longer than 6 years to get to 2nd Dan a 1st Dan can promote color belt students because they have a similar amount of experience, that was all I meant.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

RTKDCMB said:


> I am sure you did not do it on purpose but you have sightly misconstrued (my word for the day) what I had said. Firstly it was 4th Dans that had 3 decades in, not 2nd Dans.


 Correct.  That was a typo on my part.  Apologies.  In reference to second dans, I believe you had said that you think it should be six years to second dan.



RTKDCMB said:


> Secondly, what I meant from the comment was that only 4th Dans and above in that system can promote color belt ranks because it only takes 6 years to get there and in a system where it takes longer than 6 years to get to 2nd Dan a 1st Dan can promote color belt students because they have a similar amount of experience, that was all I meant.


You are correct.  I took you out of context.  Apologies.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

I revise my comment:

_One poster indicated that he's accustomed to second dan students having something along the lines of three decades in, which in most kyu/dan systems is enough time for a 3rd or 4th dan.  Others say that a less than four year TKD student isn't a "real blackbelt," or that TKD schools that promote to black belt in less time are belt factories, ignoring that in Korea, the nation of origin of the art, it only takes one year.

The standards that such posters hold up are fine and I have no criticism of them.  But those posters are judging other schools by what they're accustomed to rather than on what is reasonable or what is normative for the art in question._

My post wasn't meant to be directed at anyone specifically but to point out that people tend to make value judgements based on their own experiences or on what is normative in their own art or school.


----------



## PhotonGuy

As it is, every sensai has their own methods and their own systems for promotions and belt advancements. Some instructors, as pointed out by many people in this thread, tell a student when they can test for their next belt and then the student will test. Some instructors such as mine will let the student decide if they want to sign up and test for their next belt and tests are held every 3 to 4 months. Some instructors will wait until the student wants to test and says so, I once briefly attended such a place. Some instructors will hand out belts and ranks if you pay them enough money and that is what I would call a McDojo and in my opinion such places are not worth going to. Regardless of whatever system the sensai uses, its important that the student knows what they need to do to get to the next belt up to and including black belt. If a student has gone awhile without the sensai telling him he could test than the student should know why they are not being called up to test and what they need to fix or work on. In my dojo, when you fail a promotion test they tell you why you failed and what you need to work on and that's how it should be in every system. If its a system where the sensai has to tell the student they can test for the next belt before the student can test, than the student should know what they need to do to meet the sensai's standards for the next belt and how to bring themselves up to par. The student should know what they need to do for every belt including the black belt. There is no reason why the student shouldn't have such information.


----------



## Cirdan

PhotonGuy said:


> As it is, every sensai has their own methods and their own systems for promotions and belt advancements. Some instructors, as pointed out by many people in this thread, tell a student when they can test for their next belt and then the student will test. Some instructors such as mine will let the student decide if they want to sign up and test for their next belt and tests are held every 3 to 4 months. Some instructors will wait until the student wants to test and says so, I once briefly attended such a place. Some instructors will hand out belts and ranks if you pay them enough money and that is what I would call a McDojo and in my opinion such places are not worth going to. Regardless of whatever system the sensai uses, its important that the student knows what they need to do to get to the next belt up to and including black belt. If a student has gone awhile without the sensai telling him he could test than the student should know why they are not being called up to test and what they need to fix or work on. In my dojo, when you fail a promotion test they tell you why you failed and what you need to work on and that's how it should be in every system. If its a system where the sensai has to tell the student they can test for the next belt before the student can test, than the student should know what they need to do to meet the sensai's standards for the next belt and how to bring themselves up to par. The student should know what they need to do for every belt including the black belt. There is no reason why the student shouldn't have such information.



A student should know what the curriculum is and what he/she needs to work on sure. I don`t think anyone can know when they are ready for grading without having been told by their instructor however. You would have to be quite a bit above the required level to make an accurate judgement, in wich case you should have graded already and probably more than once.

Do you mind if I ask how long you have been training?


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## RTKDCMB

Daniel Sullivan said:


> You are correct.  I took you out of context.  Apologies.



No apology necessary, just had to set the record straight.


----------



## lklawson

Cirdan said:


> A student should know what the curriculum is and what he/she needs to work on sure. I don`t think anyone can know when they are ready for grading without having been told by their instructor however. You would have to be quite a bit above the required level to make an accurate judgement, in wich case you should have graded already and probably more than once.


And yet, that's pretty close to the method that all Primary and Secondary schools use in the developed world.  The student shows up to class, the teacher instructs, then the student takes a test, usually with little to no input from the teacher as to whether or not the student is "ready."

Ask yourself what is the point, the purpose behind the test?  Obviously to ensure that the student has a working knowledge of some given skill and information set and can perform at some given level of expertise.  Sometimes, it's important to the participants that the student be tested "under stress."  Now, look around at all the various training programs testing physical skills and information from around the world and across disciplines.  Look at everything from ASE (automobile mechanics) to Medical certifications (Doctor, Nurse, etc.) to computer technology (CompTIA, MCS[P/A/E], RHC[A/E], etc.) to legal (Lawyer, Paralegal, etc.) to college & university.  What you see is a variety of training and testing methods.  In some cases the student has no choice when to take tests and must meet a deadline to test, pass or fail.  Failure means taking the test again, maybe repeating the curriculum.  In some cases the student may take all, some, or only the final certification test at their discretion, with any input from the instructor being at the student's discretion as well to heed or not.  And there are many variation between.  All of them are proven to work, to produce capable graduates with serviceable skills.

If all of these various methods can work for other skills instruction, then it can work for martial arts too.  It is entirely possible to run a martial arts school like a regular primary school where the students have a curriculum that they must complete and then, with no discretion at all from the instructor or the student, the student takes a test at a given time.  Success or failure could determine whether or not the student must repeat the curriculum.

It is entirely possible to run a martial arts school like a Microsoft Certified Professional program where the instructor teaches the required information and the student decides when he wants to take a test.  The test may be performed on site or the student may even have to go to a third party to take the test.

It is entirely possible to teach martial arts in the old European "Apprenticeship" model with the student passing from Apprentice, to Journeyman, to Master.  In fact, martial arts instructors in England used almost exactly that method during the Tudor period with the Company of Maisters.  Students would petition to join, train for no less than 7 years, then would be required to request permission to "Play the Prize" which, if granted, included posting an open challenge to any and all other members in the Company.  They would be judged by a panel of instructors based on their performance.  7 years minimum from Scholar to Free Scholar.  7 or more from Free Scholar to Provost.  Provost to Master, if ever, another 7+ years.  And the student would decide if he thought he was ready to Play the Prize but had to ask permission from the Master, who could give or withhold the permission. (Students would also be required to buy, out of pocket, the challenge hand-bills and post them around the town and in nearby locals).

Of course, rank-by-immediate-award (Batsugun) still happens occasionally in some arts such as Judo and is (or was) quite common in some BJJ schools; when you can "hang with" the next rank, then you achieve the next rank.

Stop thinking so narrowly.  Just because some other school does grading differently from how you are familiar with it, doesn't mean it's wrong.  It's how they do it.  Results are what matters.  If, in the end, the student is transmitted and retains the requisite knowledge then their method works, regardless of how much input the student has on when he attempts to grade.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

PhotonGuy said:


> As it is, every sensai has their own methods and their own systems for promotions and belt advancements. Some instructors, as pointed out by many people in this thread, tell a student when they can test for their next belt and then the student will test. Some instructors such as mine will let the student decide if they want to sign up and test for their next belt and tests are held every 3 to 4 months. Some instructors will wait until the student wants to test and says so, I once briefly attended such a place. Some instructors will hand out belts and ranks if you pay them enough money and that is what I would call a McDojo and in my opinion such places are not worth going to. Regardless of whatever system the sensai uses, its important that the student knows what they need to do to get to the next belt up to and including black belt. If a student has gone awhile without the sensai telling him he could test than the student should know why they are not being called up to test and what they need to fix or work on. In my dojo, when you fail a promotion test they tell you why you failed and what you need to work on and that's how it should be in every system. If its a system where the sensai has to tell the student they can test for the next belt before the student can test, than the student should know what they need to do to meet the sensai's standards for the next belt and how to bring themselves up to par. The student should know what they need to do for every belt including the black belt. There is no reason why the student shouldn't have such information.


I agree; instructors should set clear goals for their students to meet and should be clear about what a grading will include.  I give my students a test syllabus prior to grading.

Oh, and not to nitpick you, but sensei is sens*ei*, not sens*ai*.


----------



## PhotonGuy

I think of it like this, lets say you're using a car to get to a destination. The destination might be black belt or any belt in the martial arts or it might be a more abstract goal in the martial arts. The sensai controls the wheel, he steers the car in the right direction. The student would be the engine, he provides the movement, and the hard work and effort to get the car to where it needs to go. That is how it should be when a student is striving for a certain belt level such as black belt, or anything else in the martial arts.


----------



## Cirdan

lklawson said:


> And yet, that's pretty close to the method that all Primary and Secondary schools use in the developed world. The student shows up to class, the teacher instructs, then the student takes a test, usually with little to no input from the teacher as to whether or not the student is "ready."
> 
> Ask yourself what is the point, the purpose behind the test? Obviously to ensure that the student has a working knowledge of some given skill and information set and can perform at some given level of expertise. Sometimes, it's important to the participants that the student be tested "under stress." Now, look around at all the various training programs testing physical skills and information from around the world and across disciplines. Look at everything from ASE (automobile mechanics) to Medical certifications (Doctor, Nurse, etc.) to computer technology (CompTIA, MCS[P/A/E], RHC[A/E], etc.) to legal (Lawyer, Paralegal, etc.) to college & university. What you see is a variety of training and testing methods. In some cases the student has no choice when to take tests and must meet a deadline to test, pass or fail. Failure means taking the test again, maybe repeating the curriculum. In some cases the student may take all, some, or only the final certification test at their discretion, with any input from the instructor being at the student's discretion as well to heed or not. And there are many variation between. All of them are proven to work, to produce capable graduates with serviceable skills.
> 
> If all of these various methods can work for other skills instruction, then it can work for martial arts too. It is entirely possible to run a martial arts school like a regular primary school where the students have a curriculum that they must complete and then, with no discretion at all from the instructor or the student, the student takes a test at a given time. Success or failure could determine whether or not the student must repeat the curriculum.
> 
> It is entirely possible to run a martial arts school like a Microsoft Certified Professional program where the instructor teaches the required information and the student decides when he wants to take a test. The test may be performed on site or the student may even have to go to a third party to take the test.
> 
> It is entirely possible to teach martial arts in the old European "Apprenticeship" model with the student passing from Apprentice, to Journeyman, to Master. In fact, martial arts instructors in England used almost exactly that method during the Tudor period with the Company of Maisters. Students would petition to join, train for no less than 7 years, then would be required to request permission to "Play the Prize" which, if granted, included posting an open challenge to any and all other members in the Company. They would be judged by a panel of instructors based on their performance. 7 years minimum from Scholar to Free Scholar. 7 or more from Free Scholar to Provost. Provost to Master, if ever, another 7+ years. And the student would decide if he thought he was ready to Play the Prize but had to ask permission from the Master, who could give or withhold the permission. (Students would also be required to buy, out of pocket, the challenge hand-bills and post them around the town and in nearby locals).
> 
> Of course, rank-by-immediate-award (Batsugun) still happens occasionally in some arts such as Judo and is (or was) quite common in some BJJ schools; when you can "hang with" the next rank, then you achieve the next rank.
> 
> Stop thinking so narrowly. Just because some other school does grading differently from how you are familiar with it, doesn't mean it's wrong. It's how they do it. Results are what matters. If, in the end, the student is transmitted and retains the requisite knowledge then their method works, regardless of how much input the student has on when he attempts to grade.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



You will just have to excuse my narrow way of thinking then. While I am familiar with many very different ways of testing (or not testing) for rank I do believe the one discussed in this thread raises certain questions. 
As an instructor I certainly know the level of my students. Letting someone test by actively signing up (and pay a fee for doing so) when I know this person WILL fail is simply something I wouldn`t do. At worst it means a huge waste of people`s time, money plus not all students take failing a test (potentially horribly) that well. Shouldn`t the student at the very least be warned that she/he is not there yet?


----------



## Cirdan

PhotonGuy said:


> I think of it like this, lets say you're using a car to get to a destination. The destination might be black belt or any belt in the martial arts or it might be a more abstract goal in the martial arts. The sensai controls the wheel, he steers the car in the right direction. The student would be the engine, he provides the movement, and the hard work and effort to get the car to where it needs to go. That is how it should be when a student is striving for a certain belt level such as black belt, or anything else in the martial arts.



I would say any student past raw beginner needs to be more than the engine.


----------



## MJS

Daniel Sullivan said:


> It isn't what I would do, but so long as paying doesn't guarantee passage, I don't see anything inherently wrong with it.  Drivers license tests, SATs, and essentially any athletic tryout amount to testing at a scheduled time.  People participate hoping to pass the test, score highly so as to enhance their chances at college entrance, or to make the cut respectively.



Points taken.  When I took the test for my DL, I had to attend a certain number of classes, a certain number of hours of behind the wheel driving, etc, before the actual test was scheduled.  It wasn't up to me, it was up to the inst.  I never did the SATs, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd imagine if your score wasn't high enough, it wouldn't be worth applying for a school such as Harvard.  I'd imagine they'd laugh you out the door, no?



> At this point, we don't even know what the testing fees are, or if there are any (I think the OP mentioned that there is a fee).



True.  



> On a side note, I notice that people tend to cry McDojo or are dismissive anytime a grading practice deviates from what they are accustomed to.  The comment about "what do you expect from an art where it only takes six years to fourth dan" is dismissive; the poster indicated that he's accustomed to second dan students having something along the lines of three decades in, which in most kyu/dan systems is enough time for a hachidan.  Others say that a less than four year TKD student isn't a "real blackbelt," or that TKD schools that promote to black belt in less time are belt factories, ignoring that in Korea, the nation of origin of the art, it only takes one year.
> 
> The standards that such posters hold up are fine and I have no criticism of them.  But those posters are judging other schools by what they're accustomed to rather than on what is reasonable or what is normative for the art in question.



This is probably very true.  What's interesting, to me anyways, is that you have some arts that tend to draw people who're belt hungry, and want, want, want, while others join a school in which the time standards are known to take very long.  Sure, there're some rare gems in BJJ, but it would seem to me, that the majority of BJJ schools, don't hand out rank every week.  I'm sorry, but for me, the thought of seeing someone get a BB after a year of training or a 13yr old 2nd or 3rd degree is laughable and quite frankly, a joke.  But that's just my opinion.  I'm sure there're many that share the same views.


----------



## MJS

PhotonGuy said:


> When somebody gets denied acceptance at Harvard or any other university they don't get laughed out the door or majorly embarrassed, usually they just get a card in the mail telling them they're not accepted. When people fail belt tests at my dojo they don't get laughed at or embarrassed and while they might be disappointed or let down because they failed, they're not made fun of for it and they usually learn from their failures.



That was simply a figure of speech.  No, I doubt the school will send a letter saying, "HA! YOU SUCK!!!!".  However, my point was simply....the teacher, not the student, is IMO, better suited to decide when someone is ready to test.  



> The problem with the instructor deciding when a student can test, especially if its a large dojo with lots of students is that it would be really hard if not impossible for an instructor to keep track of every student's progress. Imagine if you were running a dojo, you have over 100 students, and you have to know by heart where every student's progress level is and in addition to that it keeps changing as students gain progress as they keep working at it. That's why students should choose if they want to sign up for an up coming promotion exam, A sensai could not keep track of everybody.



Sorry, but I'm going to agree with Dirty Dog on this and raise the BS flag!  That is the most crazy thing I've heard!


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

MJS said:


> Points taken.  When I took the test for my DL, I had to attend a certain number of classes, a certain number of hours of behind the wheel driving, etc, before the actual test was scheduled.


Which raises the question of whether the students are applying to test based on their own feelings of readiness or if they have objective standards (study hours, knowledge of specific techniques, etc.) which they can can look at to know if they've met the requirements they need to meet in order to have a reasonable chance of success.

Which may actually be the case in this school.


----------



## lklawson

Cirdan said:


> Shouldn`t the student at the very least be warned that she/he is not there yet?


Personally, I would like that, yes.  Nevertheless, the fact is that doing it thusly is a common method of instruction and testing in other educational disciplines.  In high school, would you have been able to escape a test merely because both you and your teacher knew you were going to fail it?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## lklawson

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Which raises the question of whether the students are applying to test based on their own feelings of readiness or if they have objective standards (study hours, knowledge of specific techniques, etc.) which they can can look at to know if they've met the requirements they need to meet in order to have a reasonable chance of success.


Durn good point.  SAT's and the like have defined curriculums which the students know before hand, study guides, and practice tests.  While it is up to the student to decide when/if they will take the test, they are provided with every tool to ensure they know the likelihood of success and to what degree.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## MJS

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Which raises the question of whether the students are applying to test based on their own feelings of readiness or if they have objective standards (study hours, knowledge of specific techniques, etc.) which they can can look at to know if they've met the requirements they need to meet in order to have a reasonable chance of success.
> 
> Which may actually be the case in this school.



IMO, if we were going the route of letting them test based on their feelings, wouldn't it still be a good idea to at least have the inst check out the material prior to test date?  Furthermore, I'd say if this was allowed, then technically the student could test every month and potentially pass.  If its the latter, I'd think that a teacher would still be looking at them at some point to see if they were meeting those requirements.


----------



## Cirdan

lklawson said:


> Personally, I would like that, yes. Nevertheless, the fact is that doing it thusly is a common method of instruction and testing in other educational disciplines. In high school, would you have been able to escape a test merely because both you and your teacher knew you were going to fail it?
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk




If testing in high school included signing up myself, paying a fee and performing in front of a board with other students and a crowd watching and even filming the event, then I am sure my old high school teacher would have advised me not to test if he was sure I was going to fail.


----------



## PhotonGuy

I've been thinking, should belt advancement work the same way grade advancement works in school? It takes thirteen years to get through school, Kindergarten and then grades 1-12. From there you might go to college or you might start a career or whatever. The time t get through school is pretty much set and a student advances one grade per year. Occasionally there might be variations, a student might be slow or might be struggling and might be held back a grade or a student might be really academically talented or a whiz bang and might skip a grade but I would say over ninety percent of the time a student goes up one grade a year and finishes school in thirteen years. Should belt advancement work the same way? Perhaps most students should go up one belt every few months or whatever and it should take a standard X amount of time to make black belt which is pretty much the same for every student the same way graduating from school is pretty much the same amount of time for everybody.


----------



## RTKDCMB

PhotonGuy said:


> I've been thinking, should belt advancement work the same way grade advancement works in school? It takes thirteen years to get through school, Kindergarten and then grades 1-12. From there you might go to college or you might start a career or whatever. The time t get through school is pretty much set and a student advances one grade per year. Occasionally there might be variations, a student might be slow or might be struggling and might be held back a grade or a student might be really academically talented or a whiz bang and might skip a grade but I would say over ninety percent of the time a student goes up one grade a year and finishes school in thirteen years. Should belt advancement work the same way? Perhaps most students should go up one belt every few months or whatever and it should take a standard X amount of time to make black belt which is pretty much the same for every student the same way graduating from school is pretty much the same amount of time for everybody.



No that would be a terrible idea. The problems with that would be that it would penalize the ones who were really good and reward the ones who were not and you would get a lower quality of black belt overall. There would be less incentive for the mediocre to raise their standards because they know they will get their black belt anyway. There have been some really dumb people who have graduated from high school. In schools there are a set curriculum and students start at the same time and learn exactly the same thing at exactly the same time and they are required by law to attend. In a martial arts school students join at different times in the teaching cycle (one student might learn a particular technique at yellow belt and another might not learn it until blue belt because that is what is being taught at the time). Some students train more often than others and some leave for a time and come back later so having the time for gaining black belt for everyone is just not practical. The two types of schools can't work the same way. A school that guarantees a black belt in a set amount of time shows a major sign of a M'cdojo/M'cdojang and that's not a good look.


----------



## Dirty Dog

PhotonGuy said:


> I've been thinking, should belt advancement work the same way grade advancement works in school? It takes thirteen years to get through school, Kindergarten and then grades 1-12. From there you might go to college or you might start a career or whatever. The time t get through school is pretty much set and a student advances one grade per year. Occasionally there might be variations, a student might be slow or might be struggling and might be held back a grade or a student might be really academically talented or a whiz bang and might skip a grade but I would say over ninety percent of the time a student goes up one grade a year and finishes school in thirteen years. Should belt advancement work the same way? Perhaps most students should go up one belt every few months or whatever and it should take a standard X amount of time to make black belt which is pretty much the same for every student the same way graduating from school is pretty much the same amount of time for everybody.



That's exactly how it works in your friendly neighborhood McDojo. As long as your check clears, you'll continue to advance at whatever rate is the norm for that place.

For myself I'll continue to advance, and to recommend advancement, based on performance.


----------



## Cirdan

PhotonGuy said:


> I've been thinking, should belt advancement work the same way grade advancement works in school? It takes thirteen years to get through school, Kindergarten and then grades 1-12. From there you might go to college or you might start a career or whatever. The time t get through school is pretty much set and a student advances one grade per year. Occasionally there might be variations, a student might be slow or might be struggling and might be held back a grade or a student might be really academically talented or a whiz bang and might skip a grade but I would say over ninety percent of the time a student goes up one grade a year and finishes school in thirteen years. Should belt advancement work the same way? Perhaps most students should go up one belt every few months or whatever and it should take a standard X amount of time to make black belt which is pretty much the same for every student the same way graduating from school is pretty much the same amount of time for everybody.



Have you even noticed how low the percentage of students that stick with an art is? You won`t have 90% left after one year, 25% would be great. After nine years, let alone 13 you only got the really dedicated ones who made the art part of their lifestyle, probably under 1%. Those who still train are likely to be at different levels skill/rankwise.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

MJS said:


> Daniel Sullivan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Which raises the question of whether the students are *applying to test based on their own feelings of readiness *or if they have objective standards (study hours, knowledge of specific techniques, etc.) which they can can look at to know if they've met the requirements they need to meet in order to have a reasonable chance of success.
> 
> 
> 
> Which may actually be the case in this school.  IMO, if we were going the route of letting them test based on their feelings, wouldn't it still be a good idea to at least have the inst check out the material prior to test date?  Furthermore, I'd say if this was allowed, then technically the student could test every month and potentially pass.  If its the latter, I'd think that a teacher would still be looking at them at some point to see if they were meeting those requirements.
Click to expand...

What I was getting at is that the majority of responses are predicated on the impression that the former is exactly what is happening even though that has not been expressly stated by the OP.

The school has been equated with a McDojo in spite of no other detail being known other than that the students apply to test rather than test when sensei directs them to.  The OP has not been forthcoming with this information, but at least one poster is familiar with the school and had very positive comments about it.


----------



## lklawson

Cirdan said:


> If testing in high school included signing up myself, paying a fee and performing in front of a board with other students and a crowd watching and even filming the event, then I am sure my old high school teacher would have advised me not to test if he was sure I was going to fail.


Kinda like Defending a Doctoral Thesis?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## lklawson

RTKDCMB said:


> No that would be a terrible idea. The problems with that would be that it would penalize the ones who were really good and reward the ones who were not and you would get a lower quality of black belt overall.


In school the really talented kids get to go into special "Gifted" programs and/or skip grades.



> There would be less incentive for the mediocre to raise their standards because they know they will get their black belt anyway.


In school the ones who flunk are held back a year (or are supposed to be, anyway).



> There have been some really dumb people who have graduated from high school.


Mostly due to artificial and bureaucratic machinations which link federal funding to factory-like production figures for students and, occasionally, "fudging" tests scores in order to meet academic standards requirements for students who are great athletes but rather poor students.



> In schools there are a set curriculum and students start at the same time and learn exactly the same thing at exactly the same time and they are required by law to attend.


By the time I got to High School, I had a great deal of flexibility in what classes I could take.  Sure I had to take a "math" course but it could be general math or some more advanced course.  I actually took Latin one semester in HS.  



> In a martial arts school students join at different times in the teaching cycle (one student might learn a particular technique at yellow belt and another might not learn it until blue belt because that is what is being taught at the time). Some students train more often than others and some leave for a time and come back later so having the time for gaining black belt for everyone is just not practical. The two types of schools can't work the same way.


Actually, I'm aware of some schools that insist that beginners all sign up to start at the same time.  They enroll beginner students for classes that start on a given date and run through a given date.  It's usually considered kind of a "taster track" sort of thing but the concept is easy enough to extend.  Further, it's pretty darn common to have a "advanced student" session in many schools, following the general class.



> A school that guarantees a black belt in a set amount of time shows a  major sign of a M'cdojo/M'cdojang and that's not a good look.


Standard "public school" model which PhotonGuy is talking about isn't supposed to guarantee graduation either.  That they, apparently, sometimes do, was one of your complaints right?  They're not supposed to and they do.  Does that make those people who graduated in such a way holders of a McDiploma?  Maybe.  

I'm not saying I'd like martial arts instruction and testing set up the way "public school" is.  In fact, I'd probably hate it.  I'm just saying that it's a valid method of instruction and testing and seems to produce results.

What we're all used to in more-or-less standard martial arts venues ain't the only way to skin the cat.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## lklawson

Dirty Dog said:


> That's exactly how it works in your friendly neighborhood McDojo. As long as your check clears, you'll continue to advance at whatever rate is the norm for that place.


That's not how "public school" is supposed to work either.  Just showing up doesn't get it.  You still are required to pass the grade or you're held back.



> For myself I'll continue to advance, and to recommend advancement, based on performance.


Just like K12 school?    <ducking>

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## lklawson

Cirdan said:


> Have you even noticed how low the percentage of students that stick with an art is? You won`t have 90% left after one year, 25% would be great. After nine years, let alone 13 you only got the really dedicated ones who made the art part of their lifestyle, probably under 1%. Those who still train are likely to be at different levels skill/rankwise.


That's an American culture thing.  My friends tell me it's different in Japan (for instance).

And I know it was different in the Tudor period which I referred to up-thread.  There it was 7 years between rankings at a minimum.  14 years before you were fit to be let off the apron strings.  21 or more years before you could even petition to test for Master.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Dirty Dog

lklawson said:


> That's not how "public school" is supposed to work either.  Just showing up doesn't get it.  You still are required to pass the grade or you're held back.
> 
> Just like K12 school?    <ducking>
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



I'm going to guess you've not had much contact with the current school system. No Child Left Behind, and all that. Just showing up does, in fact, seem to be enough.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Daniel Sullivan said:


> The school has been equated with a McDojo in spite of no other detail being known other than that the students apply to test rather than test when sensei directs them to.  The OP has not been forthcoming with this information, but at least one poster is familiar with the school and had very positive comments about it.



    What haven't I been forthcoming about? I will try to be as informative as I can with whatever you want to know.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

PhotonGuy said:


> What haven't I been forthcoming about? I will try to be as informative as I can with whatever you want to know.


This wasn't an accusation.   You've said that it is up to the student when they test, but you haven't said if there is some kind of objective basis (minimum number of study hours, knowledge of specific techniques, knowledge of specific kata, etc.) by which the students can gauge that they're actually ready.


----------



## MJS

Dirty Dog said:


> That's exactly how it works in your friendly neighborhood McDojo. As long as your check clears, you'll continue to advance at whatever rate is the norm for that place.
> 
> For myself I'll continue to advance, and to recommend advancement, based on performance.



Agreed!!  It's amazing how concerned with people are with the belts, almost as if getting a new belt is something magical.  LOL!  It's amazing how many times the following questions are asked by newbies: "How long does it take to get to black belt?"  and "How long does it take to advance between belts?"  I mean really...there's nothing more important than that?  People tend to think that just because they learn something new and can 'do it' in 5min, that they know it.  No, doesn't work that way.  I've taught someone a tech, walked away and came back 10min later, asked them to show me, and it was horrible...yet they want to learn something else.  

My current teacher does promotions on what you said in your last paragraph...performance...in addition to how many times you show up to class.  Come to class 4 times a month, never improve with your material....you'll be at the same rank for a loooooooong time.  Show up 3+ times a week, always strive to get better, put forth the effort to perform 110%, you'll advance.  Now, my teacher is old school and has told me many times that his teachers never handed out rank and neither does he.  Even though he has quarterly belt tests, it doesn't mean that you're going to test each time.  Obviously as you advance, the time between belts goes up.


----------



## RTKDCMB

lklawson said:


> By the time I got to High School, I had a great deal of flexibility in what classes I could take.  Sure I had to take a "math" course but it could be general math or some more advanced course.  I actually took Latin one semester in HS.



But in primary school the curriculum is more set than flexible.



lklawson said:


> Actually, I'm aware of some schools that insist that beginners all sign up to start at the same time.  They enroll beginner students for classes that start on a given date and run through a given date.  It's usually considered kind of a "taster track" sort of thing but the concept is easy enough to extend.  Further, it's pretty darn common to have a "advanced student" session in many schools, following the general class.



How often do these  beginner programs run? If they run every 6 months and go for 6 months at a time then there would be some overlap between the ones who finished 6 months ago and those who finished a year ago so they may still learn different things at different times if they end up in the same class after the beginners programs. I should imagine they will lose a few potential students whou would not want to wait for the beginning of the next program so they go somewhere else.


----------



## MJS

Daniel Sullivan said:


> What I was getting at is that the majority of responses are predicated on the impression that the former is exactly what is happening even though that has not been expressly stated by the OP.
> 
> The school has been equated with a McDojo in spite of no other detail being known other than that the students apply to test rather than test when sensei directs them to.  The OP has not been forthcoming with this information, but at least one poster is familiar with the school and had very positive comments about it.



I might have missed the post in question.  Of course, while nobody has to provide info, one would assume that if people had a certain impression of a place, and that impression wasn't correct, that the person(s) who are familiar with said school, would provide info to prove those impressions wrong.  

For example...search any forum, or watch any clip on the Bujinkan, and you're be sure to find numerous comments saying the art is a joke, that it's not effective, it sucks, everyone LARPs, etc.  So, odds are that when someone hears Bujinkan, they're automatically going to associate that art with being a joke.  Yet there are many folks out there that are the complete opposite of what I said and are actually the real deal.  But until the real deal folks are brought to light, the general assumption is going to be that the art is a joke.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Yes, but basing that impression on minimal information about how students apply to test is unwarranted.  He did say that passing was by no means guaranteed, but that didn't seem to sway people.

The single biggest justification for calling it a McDojo is that it is a method that posters aren't accustomed to.

Having said that, I agree with you; if you're going to post about a testing practice, you should include important details so as to give a more accurate picture of what you're describing.


----------



## lklawson

Dirty Dog said:


> I'm going to guess you've not had much contact with the current school system. No Child Left Behind, and all that. Just showing up does, in fact, seem to be enough.


Went through it myself and have two in right now.



Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## lklawson

RTKDCMB said:


> But in primary school the curriculum is more set than flexible.


Yup.



> How often do these  beginner programs run?


Not really sure.  Maybe every 6 weeks or so if I had to guess.

 Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## lklawson

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Yes, but basing that impression on minimal information about how students apply to test is unwarranted.


And very very human.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## MJS

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Yes, but basing that impression on minimal information about how students apply to test is unwarranted.  He did say that passing was by no means guaranteed, but that didn't seem to sway people.



And yet in every day life, how many times do we see the same thing with events that happen in the world?  Someone gets shot by a cop, it's the cop fault because he's a macho hot head who shoots first and asks questions later.  Couldn't possibly be that perhaps the guy had a knife and lunged at the cop after repeated commands to drop the knife .  Of course, like I said, what's the big secret?  I mean, while nobody is required to post info, if it was posted, perhaps things would be different.  



> The single biggest justification for calling it a McDojo is that it is a method that posters aren't accustomed to.



I'm going to disagree a bit with this. Using myself as an example...I went from a Kenpo school, to a Kyokushin school.  Both are martial arts, but the training is very different.  My kyokushin dojo is far from a mcdojo, and yet when I joined 2yrs ago, I had to become accustomed to things.  IMHO, a mcdojo tends to do things that the reasonable person would call suspect or questionable.  Perhaps, so as to not sidetrack this thread, I should start a new thread on what people thinks make a mcdojo. 



> Having said that, I agree with you; if you're going to post about a testing practice, you should include important details so as to give a more accurate picture of what you're describing.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

MJS said:


> And yet in every day life, how many times do we see the same thing with events that happen in the world?  Someone gets shot by a cop, it's the cop fault because he's a macho hot head who shoots first and asks questions later.  Couldn't possibly be that perhaps the guy had a knife and lunged at the cop after repeated commands to drop the knife .  Of course, like I said, what's the big secret?  I mean, while nobody is required to post info, if it was posted, perhaps things would be different.


Just because people do this everyday doesn't make it justified.  And up to this point, the OP hasn't been dodging questions, so I'm not sure that there is a big secret.   



MJS said:


> I'm going to disagree a bit with this. Using myself as an example...I went from a Kenpo school, to a Kyokushin school.  Both are martial arts, but the training is very different.  My kyokushin dojo is far from a mcdojo, and yet when I joined 2yrs ago, I had to become accustomed to things.  IMHO, a mcdojo tends to do things that the reasonable person would call suspect or questionable.  Perhaps, so as to not sidetrack this thread, I should start a new thread on what people thinks make a mcdojo.


I was refering only to this thread, not to the bigger picture.  People specifically said, "McDojo" because of the idea that students could apply to test without the instructor giving them permission.


----------



## MJS

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Just because people do this everyday doesn't make it justified.  And up to this point, the OP hasn't been dodging questions, so I'm not sure that there is a big secret.



You're right.  Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that it was.  I was simply saying that people think like that all the time, regardless of it being right or wrong. 




> I was refering only to this thread, not to the bigger picture.  People specifically said, "McDojo" because of the idea that students could apply to test without the instructor giving them permission.



I've never seen that practice done in any of the schools that I've either been a part of, nor any schools in which I've been to for seminars, camps, etc, and have talked with the inst about his dojo.  I mean, think about it...it's a sad reality that many places want to keep people happy, at all costs.  Would you rather have someone be told that they can apply for a test when they feel that they're ready, or....that they have to be given the ok by the inst, regardless of whether or not they, as the student, thinks they're ready?

In the end, just like with anything, it's the person that's under the spotlight, that'll have to live with their shady actions.  I know who I train with, and thankfully, it's not like that.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

MJS said:


> I've never seen that practice done in any of the schools that I've either been a part of, nor any schools in which I've been to for seminars, camps, etc, and have talked with the inst about his dojo.  I mean, think about it...it's a sad reality that many places want to keep people happy, at all costs.  Would you rather have someone be told that they can apply for a test when they feel that they're ready, or....that they have to be given the ok by the inst, regardless of whether or not they, as the student, thinks they're ready?
> 
> In the end, just like with anything, it's the person that's under the spotlight, that'll have to live with their shady actions.  I know who I train with, and thankfully, it's not like that.


Again, the question is the basis upon which they can apply.  Is it a general, 'when you feel ready' or a 'when you have ______ time in grade, _______ hours of attendance in class during that time, know _________ kata, etc.'

Just to clarify, I'm not endorsing the idea; in most settings, I see it as impractical and not particularly beneficial.  I was only saying that it doesn't automatically mean McDojo.


----------



## MJS

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Again, the question is the basis upon which they can apply.  Is it a general, 'when you feel ready' or a 'when you have ______ time in grade, _______ hours of attendance in class during that time, know _________ kata, etc.'
> 
> Just to clarify, I'm not endorsing the idea; in most settings, I see it as impractical and not particularly beneficial.  I was only saying that it doesn't automatically mean McDojo.



I asked this question of the OP earlier, and I believe he answered, but I'll open it up for anyone else to answer.  What makes the student more capable of deciding when he/she is ready to test, vs. the inst making that decision?  Using the example you gave above, I'll give an example:  Lets say its 3mos to go from white to yellow.  They have to have at least 40hrs of training time in and they know the required kata.  Even after all that, the student could still not be ready.  Like I said, just because they claim they 'know it' doesn't mean that they actually do.  Wouldn't it be better to have the inst look at the student, make corrections, etc, and have them wait, rather than the student going to test, looking like crap and failing?  And yes, we all have those 'brain farts' and forget when we're under pressure.  But IMO, I could justify a few minor mistakes, providing they put in 110% effort and the vast majority of the material looked sharp.  

Using myself as an example: I just took a test on the 14th of Sept.  While performing one of my katas, my teacher stopped me and asked me to tell him a particular move that I did.  For the life of me, I could not recall the Japanese term for it, so after a short pause, I was honest and told him I couldn't remember.  He told me to continue, of course stopping me again a few more times, asking about other moves, which I was able to tell him.  I passed my test.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

MJS said:


> I asked this question of the OP earlier, and I believe he answered, but I'll open it up for anyone else to answer.



Maybe you did, and I may have missed it.  I asked him on the last page earlier today.



MJS said:


> What makes the student more capable of deciding when he/she is ready to test, vs. the inst making that decision?  Using the example you gave above, I'll give an example:  Lets say its 3mos to go from white to yellow.  They have to have at least 40hrs of training time in and they know the required kata.  Even after all that, the student could still not be ready.  Like I said, just because they claim they 'know it' doesn't mean that they actually do.  Wouldn't it be better to have the inst look at the student, make corrections, etc, and have them wait, rather than the student going to test, looking like crap and failing?  And yes, we all have those 'brain farts' and forget when we're under pressure.  But IMO, I could justify a few minor mistakes, providing they put in 110% effort and the vast majority of the material looked sharp.


Correct; they could be not ready and would fail the test.  Just as with drivers license testing.



MJS said:


> Using myself as an example: I just took a test on the 14th of Sept.  While performing one of my katas, my teacher stopped me and asked me to tell him a particular move that I did.  For the life of me, I could not recall the Japanese term for it, so after a short pause, I was honest and told him I couldn't remember.  He told me to continue, of course stopping me again a few more times, asking about other moves, which I was able to tell him.  I passed my test.


Presumably, the rest of your performance was satisfactory.  You passed and moved on to the next grade.

Like I said, I don't endorse the idea, though I'm not philosophically opposed to it either.  It really comes down to what you're used to and to what works in a particular school.  Personally, I do not charge for testing and have considered dropping gradings prior to ikkyu because all the grading really is for is to determine whether they're proficient in their current unit.


----------



## lklawson

MJS said:


> I asked this question of the OP earlier, and I believe he answered, but I'll open it up for anyone else to answer.  What makes the student more capable of deciding when he/she is ready to test, vs. the inst making that decision?


Knowing what material is going to be tested and what the testing standards are.  If the student has a clear understanding of what techniques, concepts, and knowledge he will be required to demonstrate and what level of competency in each will be required, he has a way to gauge if he has a reasonable chance of success.   The biggest problem here is, of course, is the student capable of determining if his competency is up to snuff?  The more experience he has in the system and/or examples to compare against, the better chance he has at making the proper determination.  A person with no martial experience at all might not have enough experience to self-judge when he is ready for his first belt test.  However, if he watches several others in their first belt test he may be able to compare his performance to those who passed and those who failed and make a fair guess where his skills lay.  Or, if someone with experience in a similar art is testing.  For instance if someone with a shodan in Shotokan Karate is training at a TKD school, chances are pretty good that he'll have the experience to judge when he is ready to take his first belt test, moving on from white belt.



> Using myself as an example: I just took a test on the 14th of Sept.  While performing one of my katas, my teacher stopped me and asked me to tell him a particular move that I did.  For the life of me, I could not recall the Japanese term for it, so after a short pause, I was honest and told him I couldn't remember.  He told me to continue, of course stopping me again a few more times, asking about other moves, which I was able to tell him.  I passed my test.


My first dan test, in Aikido, I flubbed one of the techniques so badly that *I* fell.  I got up and told my Uke to do it again.  We nailed it the second time.  I was certain that I'd just borked myself but I was passed anyway and I was told later that, while I still got a low score on that technique, the judges were impressed that I didn't let it blow my concentration and performed the rest of the test well.  They considered it an intangible asset.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## RTKDCMB

lklawson said:


> Knowing what material is going to be tested and what the testing standards are.  If the student has a clear understanding of what techniques, concepts, and knowledge he will be required to demonstrate and what level of competency in each will be required, he has a way to gauge if he has a reasonable chance of success.   The biggest problem here is, of course, is the student capable of determining if his competency is up to snuff?  The more experience he has in the system and/or examples to compare against, the better chance he has at making the proper determination.  A person with no martial experience at all might not have enough experience to self-judge when he is ready for his first belt test.  However, if he watches several others in their first belt test he may be able to compare his performance to those who passed and those who failed and make a fair guess where his skills lay.  Or, if someone with experience in a similar art is testing.  For instance if someone with a shodan in Shotokan Karate is training at a TKD school, chances are pretty good that he'll have the experience to judge when he is ready to take his first belt test, moving on from white belt.



Even if the student can judge when they are ready to grade or how well they did fairly well they still need to consult with the instructor. When I was 16 and I had just graded for my blue tip (5th Kup), I was so confident that I had passed that I came to class for the belt and tip presentation already wearing my tip. Although I did in fact pass my instructor told me if I did that again then I would be denied my promotion the next time. Even though I was sure that I had passed I still should have waited until I was officially presented with it by my instructor. Usually the ones who did not pass the grading stand out a bit.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

RTKDCMB said:


> I was so confident that I had passed that I came to class for the belt and tip presentation already wearing my tip.


Side question; how did you get your tip if it hadn't been presented?


----------



## lklawson

RTKDCMB said:


> Even if the student can judge when they are ready to grade or how well they did fairly well they still need to consult with the instructor. When I was 16 and I had just graded for my blue tip (5th Kup), I was so confident that I had passed that I came to class for the belt and tip presentation already wearing my tip. Although I did in fact pass my instructor told me if I did that again then I would be denied my promotion the next time. Even though I was sure that I had passed I still should have waited until I was officially presented with it by my instructor. Usually the ones who did not pass the grading stand out a bit.


I don't disagree.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## RTKDCMB

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Side question; how did you get your tip if it hadn't been presented?



The tip is just a piece of electrical tape placed around the tip of the belt.I got it from the shop and placed it on myself.


----------



## Dinkydoo

I usually know that I'm ready for a grading when I feel confident at performing the syllabus that I know will be included within the test. Confidence only comes after competence for me - in most things I do, at least.

My instructor usually throws me a curve ball but I've handled it well enough in the past.


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## PhotonGuy

Cirdan said:


> I would say any student past raw beginner needs to be more than the engine.


 
    If that's the case, than why should a student still take lessons after they've gotten past being a raw beginner? Why not just teach themselves at that point? The student has to do the work but the sensei has to guide the student and his hard work in the right direction, that's the sensei's job. If a student is working really hard, really busting his butt and not making black belt I see that as the sensei's fault. If the student is slacking off and not making black belt than its obviously the student's fault but if the student is working really hard and not making black belt than its the sensei's fault because the sensei is not guiding the student in the right direction to get black belt so the sensei isn't doing his job.


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## PhotonGuy

Daniel Sullivan said:


> This wasn't an accusation.   You've said that it is up to the student when they test, but you haven't said if there is some kind of objective basis (minimum number of study hours, knowledge of specific techniques, knowledge of specific kata, etc.) by which the students can gauge that they're actually ready.


 
     There is a sheet you can get that lists all the requirements for each belt, so if you get the sheet you can check what you need for your next belt level. At higher belts especially, though, knowing the techniques on the sheets is not enough to pass, you've got to do them well.


----------



## PhotonGuy

MJS said:


> Agreed!!  It's amazing how concerned with people are with the belts, almost as if getting a new belt is something magical.  LOL!  It's amazing how many times the following questions are asked by newbies: "How long does it take to get to black belt?"  and "How long does it take to advance between belts?"  I mean really...there's nothing more important than that?  People tend to think that just because they learn something new and can 'do it' in 5min, that they know it.  No, doesn't work that way.  I've taught someone a tech, walked away and came back 10min later, asked them to show me, and it was horrible...yet they want to learn something else.
> 
> My current teacher does promotions on what you said in your last paragraph...performance...in addition to how many times you show up to class.  Come to class 4 times a month, never improve with your material....you'll be at the same rank for a loooooooong time.  Show up 3+ times a week, always strive to get better, put forth the effort to perform 110%, you'll advance.  Now, my teacher is old school and has told me many times that his teachers never handed out rank and neither does he.  Even though he has quarterly belt tests, it doesn't mean that you're going to test each time.  Obviously as you advance, the time between belts goes up.



    Some people think its magical to get an A in a class. While it might not be magical, getting an A is certainly a form of achievement that can make you feel good about yourself. Some people are obsessed with grades, I once knew this guy who was upset about a 97 that he got on a test.


----------



## MJS

PhotonGuy said:


> Some people think its magical to get an A in a class. While it might not be magical, getting an A is certainly a form of achievement that can make you feel good about yourself. Some people are obsessed with grades, I once knew this guy who was upset about a 97 that he got on a test.



I agree.  My point was simply that it's the knowledge, among other things, not the belt, that makes you good.


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## Daniel Sullivan

PhotonGuy said:


> If that's the case, than why should a student still take lessons after they've gotten past being a raw beginner? Why not just teach themselves at that point?


Because the student doesn't know that (s)he doesn't know.  In other words, you need someone who knows what they're looking at to coach you and to help you improve.  What you describe is practice.  You know at that point what to practice and how to practice it.  What you don't know are all of the little fine tuning mistakes that you cannot pick up without an instructor.  I've been training in sword arts for many years and I still have an instructor.  And yes, it _really_ pays off.



PhotonGuy said:


> The student has to do the work but the sensei has to guide the student and his hard work in the right direction, that's the sensei's job.


I agree.



PhotonGuy said:


> If a student is working really hard, really busting his butt and not making black belt I see that as the sensei's fault. If the student is slacking off and not making black belt than its obviously the student's fault but if the student is working really hard and not making black belt than its the sensei's fault because the sensei is not guiding the student in the right direction to get black belt so the sensei isn't doing his job.


Instances of weird dojo politics aside (and those circumstances do arise) I disagree with this.  Not everyone becomes proficient at the same pace.  I have a student who has been with me since 2009 and whom I will only promote to shodan next year* if *they can resolve three specific issues.  These issues have been identified and he has made progress, but he simply is very slow in making progress.  And he isn't a slacker.  I have another student who started last September who has surpassed him, and did so some time ago. He simply is a natural.  The rest of my students are somewhere in between.

We don't train for rank.  And if any of my students are preoccupied with getting rank, then they are training for the wrong reason.  I'm still happy to train them, but the desire for advancement is actually an inhibiting factor in advancement.

One of the issues that I have with belt systems is that students who are more prize oriented tend to fixate on the belts.  It also sets up a hierarchy that isn't entriely accurate; any colored belt and even a newly minted shodan isn't really "senior" to anyone but a raw beginner anyway, so nobody should be fixating on it anyway.


----------



## Cirdan

PhotonGuy said:


> If that's the case, than why should a student still take lessons after they've gotten past being a raw beginner? Why not just teach themselves at that point? The student has to do the work but the sensei has to guide the student and his hard work in the right direction, that's the sensei's job. If a student is working really hard, really busting his butt and not making black belt I see that as the sensei's fault. If the student is slacking off and not making black belt than its obviously the student's fault but if the student is working really hard and not making black belt than its the sensei's fault because the sensei is not guiding the student in the right direction to get black belt so the sensei isn't doing his job.



Your teacher can only show you the path, you must still take the wheel or else you will drive right off the road the moment he is not holding your hand anymore. What you are describing is spoon feeding where the student repeats like a parror tather than making the art his own. It is actually quite common for people to quit because they don`t want to use their head that much.


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## Cirdan

lklawson said:


> Kinda like Defending a Doctoral Thesis?
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



Kind of like a grading in a traditional martial arts school actually.


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## PhotonGuy

MJS said:


> I agree.  My point was simply that it's the knowledge, among other things, not the belt, that makes you good.



   Well yes, the belt is a result of the knowledge and ability, not the other way around.


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## MJS

PhotonGuy said:


> Well yes, the belt is a result of the knowledge and ability, not the other way around.



Sadly, some don't quite see it that way.


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## PhotonGuy

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Instances of weird dojo politics aside (and those circumstances do arise) I disagree with this.  Not everyone becomes proficient at the same pace.  I have a student who has been with me since 2009 and whom I will only promote to shodan next year* if *they can resolve three specific issues.  These issues have been identified and he has made progress, but he simply is very slow in making progress.  And he isn't a slacker.  I have another student who started last September who has surpassed him, and did so some time ago. He simply is a natural.  The rest of my students are somewhere in between.
> 
> We don't train for rank.  And if any of my students are preoccupied with getting rank, then they are training for the wrong reason.  I'm still happy to train them, but the desire for advancement is actually an inhibiting factor in advancement.
> 
> One of the issues that I have with belt systems is that students who are more prize oriented tend to fixate on the belts.  It also sets up a hierarchy that isn't entriely accurate; any colored belt and even a newly minted shodan isn't really "senior" to anyone but a raw beginner anyway, so nobody should be fixating on it anyway.


 
     Well at least the student knows what he is doing wrong, he knows the issues that have to be resolved and he is working on them. That is the important thing. If you told the student what he needs to work on to get a black belt than as far as Im concerned you are doing your job. If he is having a hard time with these issues than he just needs to work harder.

     As for naturals, I think its possible to be natural with some stuff but not with others. Michael Jordan was arguably the best basketball player in the history of the sport but he wasn't that good at baseball. I once knew this guy who was a really good swimmer and who held records for swimming but he wasn't a good runner. As for me, I've got what you would call natural ability in kicking, I've got really strong kicks and I've always been good at stuff where you use your legs, not just for kicks in the martial arts but in other stuff too such as certain weight lifting exercises that use the legs such as the squat. With hand strikes, on the other hand, Im not as good with those. I've never been as good with the upper body and that's my weakness.


----------



## MJS

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Maybe you did, and I may have missed it.  I asked him on the last page earlier today.



No problem. 




> Correct; they could be not ready and would fail the test.  Just as with drivers license testing.



Some schools that I've seen, do a 'pre-test', which is basically a quick, informal 'test' before the test, to serve as a quick run thru of all material.  Sure, the brain fart can still happen, but the pre test would hopefully help the student pass.  My current school doesn't do this.  My teacher is old school, so we're most likely being 'tested' every class.  How we all perform, are we improving on weak areas, how much effort we put out in class, during sparring, how many times you show up to class, time in grade, etc, is the measuring stick he uses.  




> Presumably, the rest of your performance was satisfactory.  You passed and moved on to the next grade.



I was exhausted after that test, but I got the thumbs up from my teacher, as well as some of the other black belts and people that were there to watch.  



> Like I said, I don't endorse the idea, though I'm not philosophically opposed to it either.  It really comes down to what you're used to and to what works in a particular school.  Personally, I do not charge for testing and have considered dropping gradings prior to ikkyu because all the grading really is for is to determine whether they're proficient in their current unit.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

PhotonGuy said:


> Daniel Sullivan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PhotonGuy said:
> 
> 
> 
> If a student is working really hard, really busting his butt and not making black belt I see that as the sensei's fault. If the student is slacking off and not making black belt than its obviously the student's fault but if the student is working really hard and not making black belt than its the sensei's fault because the sensei is not guiding the student in the right direction to get black belt so the sensei isn't doing his job.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Instances of weird dojo politics aside (and those circumstances do arise) I disagree with this.  Not everyone becomes proficient at the same pace.  I have a student who has been with me since 2009 and whom I will only promote to shodan next year* if *they can resolve three specific issues.  These issues have been identified and he has made progress, but he simply is very slow in making progress.  And he isn't a slacker.  I have another student who started last September who has surpassed him, and did so some time ago. He simply is a natural.  The rest of my students are somewhere in between.
> 
> We don't train for rank.  And if any of my students are preoccupied with getting rank, then they are training for the wrong reason.  I'm still happy to train them, but the desire for advancement is actually an inhibiting factor in advancement.
> 
> One of the issues that I have with belt systems is that students who are more prize oriented tend to fixate on the belts.  It also sets up a hierarchy that isn't entriely accurate; any colored belt and even a newly minted shodan isn't really "senior" to anyone but a raw beginner anyway, so nobody should be fixating on it anyway.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well at least the student knows what he is doing wrong, he knows the issues that have to be resolved and he is working on them. That is the important thing. If you told the student what he needs to work on to get a black belt than as far as Im concerned you are doing your job. If he is having a hard time with these issues than he just needs to work harder.
Click to expand...

On the other hand, hard work isn't always the answer.  Which is what I was getting at.  You can work very, very hard and make no visible progress. 

 Sometimes it's because the hard work is paying off but the results are not showing and it will simply take more time to achieve the needed result(s).  

Other times, the hard work isn't done correctly.  And as a long time practitioner and as an instructor, I will tell you that I have both seen and had students who work hard but refuse to follow the specific advice that I have given them.  Usually because they have become attached to some bad habit that they've developed and aren't willing to address it for one reason or another, but continue under the delusion that if they "work harder/bust their butt" on this bad habit, they can somehow make it work even though it's just a bad habit.

You may also have an issue where the hard working, and perhaps naturally gifted, student is an insufferable jerk with serious maturity issues and the sensei is unwilling to provide him/her with senior status over other students due to concerns that (s)he will treat their black belt like some badge that allows them to boss around or talk down to colored belts students.

The reason that I disagreed with your statement is that it implies that the absence of a black belt in the face of hard work within an appropriate time frame is somehow the fault of the sensei and absolves the student of all responsibility due to hard work, and this simply is not the case in many instances.



PhotonGuy said:


> As for naturals, I think its possible to be natural with some stuff but not with others. Michael Jordan was arguably the best basketball player in the history of the sport but he wasn't that good at baseball. I once knew this guy who was a really good swimmer and who held records for swimming but he wasn't a good runner. As for me, I've got what you would call natural ability in kicking, I've got really strong kicks and I've always been good at stuff where you use your legs, not just for kicks in the martial arts but in other stuff too such as certain weight lifting exercises that use the legs such as the squat. With hand strikes, on the other hand, Im not as good with those. I've never been as good with the upper body and that's my weakness.


Generally, when people refer to a "natural" in the context of a martial art, they are talking about someone who picks up the art relatively quickly and with little difficulty.  Yes, they may be stronger in some areas than in others, but on the whole, they grasp the material and attain proficiency in a seemingly textbook manner.  This doesn't imply identical levels of execution across all techniques or that the individual is a natural in activities outside of the scope of the art/sport/activity in which the instructor is observing him/her.


----------



## MJS

PhotonGuy said:


> If that's the case, than why should a student still take lessons after they've gotten past being a raw beginner? Why not just teach themselves at that point?



So, in your opinion, you're saying that you don't feel that there's anything else to learn?  



> The student has to do the work but the sensei has to guide the student and his hard work in the right direction, that's the sensei's job. If a student is working really hard, really busting his butt and not making black belt I see that as the sensei's fault. If the student is slacking off and not making black belt than its obviously the student's fault but if the student is working really hard and not making black belt than its the sensei's fault because the sensei is not guiding the student in the right direction to get black belt so the sensei isn't doing his job.



I've taught more than my share of classes.  I'm sorry, I didn't know that an instructor was supposed to be capable of working magic in addition to the arts.  News flash for you, but like anything in life, a teacher can only do so much.  If the student isn't doing their part, then I'm sorry, to say, but you're wrong...it isn't just the teachers fault.  As it was pointed out to you already, just because someone is 'busting their butt' as you put it, does not mean that the student is really grasping the art or the things the teacher is teaching.


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## David Lader

I appreciate your concern here...
Really, at the end of the day, as they say, there are so many styles, schools, organizations, etc., that there never has been, nor will there ever be, any true standards for advancement in the martial arts... 
What we call "Martial Arts" is so remarkably broad, worldwide and throughout history, that each individual, and/or each individual Master/Instructor, must ultimately decide for themselves what "progress" and varying degrees of technical proficiency looks like. I believe there is nothing wrong with designing protocols and having standards, which may include "benchmarks" or "ranks." Still, people have been training to fight and defend forever, and anyone who wants to systematize their particular way of preparing for battle is simply making it up as they go... Some folks are far more proficient martial aritsts than others, and some systems are more likely to produce effective warriors than others. Still, we're all just making this up as we go, so I think it's important to not take ourselves, or anyone, for that matter, too seriously...
Do your training, trust your teacher, and get your new belts whenever your school decides your ready...focus on the process, not the outcome...
Train hard, train smart, and be well.
David M. Lader 
5th Dan Tae Kwon Do Master
http://www.warriorsdance.com


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## MJS

David Lader said:


> I appreciate your concern here...
> Really, at the end of the day, as they say, there are so many styles, schools, organizations, etc., that there never has been, nor will there ever be, any true standards for advancement in the martial arts...
> What we call "Martial Arts" is so remarkably broad, worldwide and throughout history, that each individual, and/or each individual Master/Instructor, must ultimately decide for themselves what "progress" and varying degrees of technical proficiency looks like. I believe there is nothing wrong with designing protocols and having standards, which may include "benchmarks" or "ranks." Still, people have been training to fight and defend forever, and anyone who wants to systematize their particular way of preparing for battle is simply making it up as they go... Some folks are far more proficient martial aritsts than others, and some systems are more likely to produce effective warriors than others. Still, we're all just making this up as we go, so I think it's important to not take ourselves, or anyone, for that matter, too seriously...
> Do your training, trust your teacher, and get your new belts whenever your school decides your ready...focus on the process, not the outcome...
> Train hard, train smart, and be well.
> David M. Lader
> 5th Dan Tae Kwon Do Master
> http://www.warriorsdance.com



Well, IMO, I don't think that there should be one way of doing things for every art.  Of course, as we know, some arts are known for their questionable testing/promoting habits, so....

Not quite sure what you mean by 'making it up as we go'.  As I've said many times, I could care less about belts, ranks, tests, etc.  That is not what matters...what matters, is the knowledge, how well the material is taught, applied, understood, etc, to name a few.  Some schools ie: McDojos, are more concerned with keeping the people happy, even though they suck, rather than quality students.


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## Hyoho

I didn't read all the thread but the highest population in MA is kids. Its like little league. Also Japanese love groups an achievement. For many in more modern MA its not about culture but, "What grade are you trying for next?".

We shouldn't get bogged down by colours. A shodan is a beginners rank. We have the rest of our lives for more and surprisingly the biggest drop out rate is 6th Dan.


As we get older we get out of the belt idea apart from the fact a nice wide obi gives us good back support.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Other times, the hard work isn't done correctly.  And as a long time practitioner and as an instructor, I will tell you that I have both seen and had students who work hard but refuse to follow the specific advice that I have given them.  Usually because they have become attached to some bad habit that they've developed and aren't willing to address it for one reason or another, but continue under the delusion that if they "work harder/bust their butt" on this bad habit, they can somehow make it work even though it's just a bad habit.
> 
> You may also have an issue where the hard working, and perhaps naturally gifted, student is an insufferable jerk with serious maturity issues and the sensei is unwilling to provide him/her with senior status over other students due to concerns that (s)he will treat their black belt like some badge that allows them to boss around or talk down to colored belts students.
> 
> The reason that I disagreed with your statement is that it implies that the absence of a black belt in the face of hard work within an appropriate time frame is somehow the fault of the sensei and absolves the student of all responsibility due to hard work, and this simply is not the case in many instances.
> 
> 
> Generally, when people refer to a "natural" in the context of a martial art, they are talking about someone who picks up the art relatively quickly and with little difficulty.  Yes, they may be stronger in some areas than in others, but on the whole, they grasp the material and attain proficiency in a seemingly textbook manner.  This doesn't imply identical levels of execution across all techniques or that the individual is a natural in activities outside of the scope of the art/sport/activity in which the instructor is observing him/her.



   Well aside from working hard a student also has to work smart and listen to and follow what the instructor says. If the instructor is telling the student to do something a certain way and the student isn't following such instructions and keeps doing it the wrong way than its the student's fault for lack of progress. Working hard at doing it the wrong way will only make the student better at doing it the wrong way. However, I believe its the sensei's job to tell the student what they are doing wrong and how to fix it. A sensei should tell a student what the student needs to do to get to the next belt rank, including the black belt if that happens to be the next rank. The sensei should tell the student, "what you need to do to get a black belt is blah blah blah." It's the sensei's job to provide that information.

As for a "natural" who picks up the art quickly, I think much of that has to do with attitude and passion. Somebody who has a passion for something, be it martial arts or anything else will naturally pick it up quickly. Some people just do martial arts as a hobby and don't put much into it whereas other people make a career out of it. Much of it has to do with mindset and a love for the art.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

PhotonGuy said:


> Well aside from working hard a student also has to work smart and listen to and follow what the instructor says. If the instructor is telling the student to do something a certain way and the student isn't following such instructions and keeps doing it the wrong way than its the student's fault for lack of progress. Working hard at doing it the wrong way will only make the student better at doing it the wrong way. However, I believe its the sensei's job to tell the student what they are doing wrong and how to fix it.


It isn't always a matter of fault.  Some students progress at the rate they progress.  You can't make a student move at a pace they are incapable of attaining or maintaining.  The end result is a hurried and half baked first degree.  

But first degree is really meaningless.  If you are associating awarding of merit badges with progress, then you're operating under false premise.  Students who are worried about merit badges and rank are there for the wrong reason.  I'm happy to have them (a paying student is a paying student), and in time, some mature and get past their preoccupation with meaningless merit badges.  Others attain their badges but miss some of the sights along the way.  

Don't be focused on merit badges.  And truly, that is what colored belts are.  Set actual training goals and when you're in class, focus on what is being taught and on what you're doing (this is to the general you, not specifically you).



PhotonGuy said:


> A sensei should tell a student what the student needs to do to get to the next belt rank, including the black belt if that happens to be the next rank. The sensei should tell the student, "what you need to do to get a black belt is blah blah blah." It's the sensei's job to provide that information.


Sure is.  It is the instructor's job to provide the information needed for yellow belt as well.  But unless you have an instructor who is intentionally witholding information to keep students in colored belts for a longer time, which is rare in my observation (the unscrupulous instructors tend to be the opposite and try to hurry you through), this has no relation to the length of time it takes a student to reach first degree.



PhotonGuy said:


> As for a "natural" who picks up the art quickly, I think much of that has to do with attitude and passion. Somebody who has a passion for something, be it martial arts or anything else will naturally pick it up quickly. Some people just do martial arts as a hobby and don't put much into it whereas other people make a career out of it. Much of it has to do with mindset and a love for the art.


No, that's not what I'm talking about, though it certainly helps.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Sure is.  It is the instructor's job to provide the information needed for yellow belt as well.  But unless you have an instructor who is intentionally witholding information to keep students in colored belts for a longer time, which is rare in my observation (the unscrupulous instructors tend to be the opposite and try to hurry you through), this has no relation to the length of time it takes a student to reach first degree..



Well yes. It is the sensei's job to provide the information but after thinking this over quite a bit I've come to the conclusion that its also the student's job to ask. If the student needs certain information on obtaining a belt rank, be it black belt or whatever, he needs to ask the sensei about it. You've got a mouth, you've got to use it. In the same way that a student taking an academic class who wants to get an A, they should talk to their teacher about it and ask their teacher what they need to do to get an A. A student in the martial arts should talk to their sensei and ask their sensei what they need to do to get to the next belt, and that includes the black belt if it happens to be the next belt.


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## David Lader

*This all really depends on the degree to which a student is willing to "show up" within the context of a very traditional teacher/student relationship dynamic...

Even more important is the manner in which the instructor chooses to be a teacher. If it is predominantly about the teacher earning a living and catering to the desires of every person who walks through the door, that establishes an entirely different set of ground rules. Also, none of this is "black and white" science, as this is all about human relationships, and there is no one "right way..." Still, what works best for me with my students through the years is as follows: The longer a student humbly "shows up" for whatever I ask of them, the more I am willing to be in a conversation with them about what they need to be working on, the best way to achieve this, and what my expectations are for their next rank... The newer the student, the less interested I am in discussing any of these issues. 

Interestingly, and without fail, all of my most outstanding and accomplished students throughout my many years of teaching have never asked me when they would "rank" next or what they should be working on... They simply trusted the process... If the results aren't meaningful and satisfying, leave... The rank, in and of itself, is a fairly unreliable measure of the substance any one practitioner is gleaning from their training...

Peace.

*


----------



## PhotonGuy

David Lader said:


> *
> Interestingly, and without fail, all of my most outstanding and accomplished students throughout my many years of teaching have never asked me when they would "rank" next or what they should be working on... They simply trusted the process... If the results aren't meaningful and satisfying, leave... The rank, in and of itself, is a fairly unreliable measure of the substance any one practitioner is gleaning from their training...
> 
> Peace.
> 
> *


 
     In just about everything in life, whether its martial arts or something else, you have to learn from a good teacher and you have to be a good learner and that includes talking to the teacher and asking your teacher what you need to do to get to the next belt, rank, level, ect. In academic school, if a student wants to get an A in a class, the student of course must study hard to get the A but a good student will also talk to the teacher about it. I once had a professor who respected students who went to him and asked him what they needed to do to get an A. All the studying in the world won't get you an A if you're not doing it right and if you're not aware of your teacher's standards and expectations. In Boy Scouts, a scout who wants to get an Eagle badge should talk to their scoutmaster about it. As a matter of fact, to get the Eagle badge have to talk to your scoutmaster because on of the requirements to be an Eagle Scout is that you have to do a community service project that other scouts help you with but where you lead, where you're in charge. To do such a project you have to talk to your scoutmaster so that he will set you up with something. The same thing with the martial arts, if you want to get to a certain belt level be it black belt or whatever, a good student should talk to their sensei about it. It's the same thing about an academic student talking to their teacher about getting an A or a boy scout talking to their scoutmaster about becoming an Eagle Scout. Somebody who just trusts the process will become very frustrated and might become downright depressed and feel worthless when they aren't getting the results they're shooting for. I am by no means saying students should be arrogant and demand a belt, or for that matter an A or a badge in boy scouts, I am saying students should humbly ask their teacher, professor, scoutmaster, sensei, ect. what they need to do to get to the next level, what they need to do to meet their instructor's standards. To simply trust the process, I myself foolishly made the mistake of following that philosophy and it practically ruined my life. So I speak from my own bad experience, that is not how you get ahead in the martial arts, or in life for that matter.


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## David Lader

*If my teachers have had certain ways of moving or "being" that I've admired, been attracted to, and wished to have manifest in my own life, I've been most successful at achieving this end when I have simply waited for direction and emulated them to the best of my ability. If I think I am unsafe in any way, I can always choose to move on... My teachers are not gods, and none have had "all the answers..." It's been child's play to find faults with my various instructors through the years... The real work has been developing the patience, humility, and willingness to wait for the ONE gem from each of my chosen teachers (and we DO choose our teachers) that has, invariably changed my life for the better. When I am busy finding out what I have to do to get rank, or an A, I am not fully present to what my teacher is saying and sharing in the moment, and I will miss the best stuff... 

Life is full of hurts, dissappointments, and betrayals, and our teachers often let us down in various ways. Still, I must take responsibility for my own decisions and risk the bruises in order to learn the meaningful lessons. As warriors, we must take such calculated risks, or we will never thrive... It's ok to be both grateful to our teachers for the new knowledge and willing to move on when we've learned what we need to learn - but that is really up to us... No one forces me to choose a real teacher, and a real teacher has no attachment to "keeping" me longer than I need to be around...

One of my teachers shared this with me long ago: "A student comes to his master and says 'Master,' how long will it take me to become a master like you?' The master replies 'many, many years, young one...' The student then asks 'what if I work twice as hard?' to which the master replies 'It will then take you twice as long, for you will always have one eye on the outcome, leaving only one eye in the present with which to study...'"

Please, I mean no disrespect in our exchange...We need not agree...only value each others' process.

Peace to You...be well...*


----------



## Balrog

I'm somewhat of a dinosaur.  I believe that students should stay current on their low-rank material, because practicing the lower forms will help with the current form.  In addition, there is the expectation that a Black Belt should know the curriculum for whatever discipline they practice.

Once a student has promoted past Yellow Belt in my school, they are liable to be asked to demonstrate low rank forms at their testings.  In addition, to get permission to test from brown to red, they must sign off on the first 5 ranks, and to promote from red to red/black, they have to sign off on the remainder.  At red/black, they have to sign off on everything from White Belt on up to get permission to test for Black Belt, and on their Black Belt testing, they will present their current form and at least 5 of the 8 lower ranked forms.  They don't know which ones I'll pick, so they have to be up to speed on them all.


----------



## David Lader

Balrog said:


> I'm somewhat of a dinosaur. I believe that students should stay current on their low-rank material, because practicing the lower forms will help with the current form. In addition, there is the expectation that a Black Belt should know the curriculum for whatever discipline they practice.
> 
> Once a student has promoted past Yellow Belt in my school, they are liable to be asked to demonstrate low rank forms at their testings. In addition, to get permission to test from brown to red, they must sign off on the first 5 ranks, and to promote from red to red/black, they have to sign off on the remainder. At red/black, they have to sign off on everything from White Belt on up to get permission to test for Black Belt, and on their Black Belt testing, they will present their current form and at least 5 of the 8 lower ranked forms. They don't know which ones I'll pick, so they have to be up to speed on them all.



I completely agree...I share your experience, and this is in-line with how I ran my traditional schools...


----------



## PhotonGuy

David Lader said:


> *If my teachers have had certain ways of moving or "being" that I've admired, been attracted to, and wished to have manifest in my own life, I've been most successful at achieving this end when I have simply waited for direction and emulated them to the best of my ability. If I think I am unsafe in any way, I can always choose to move on... My teachers are not gods, and none have had "all the answers..." It's been child's play to find faults with my various instructors through the years... The real work has been developing the patience, humility, and willingness to wait for the ONE gem from each of my chosen teachers (and we DO choose our teachers) that has, invariably changed my life for the better. When I am busy finding out what I have to do to get rank, or an A, I am not fully present to what my teacher is saying and sharing in the moment, and I will miss the best stuff...
> 
> Life is full of hurts, dissappointments, and betrayals, and our teachers often let us down in various ways. Still, I must take responsibility for my own decisions and risk the bruises in order to learn the meaningful lessons. As warriors, we must take such calculated risks, or we will never thrive... It's ok to be both grateful to our teachers for the new knowledge and willing to move on when we've learned what we need to learn - but that is really up to us... No one forces me to choose a real teacher, and a real teacher has no attachment to "keeping" me longer than I need to be around...
> 
> One of my teachers shared this with me long ago: "A student comes to his master and says 'Master,' how long will it take me to become a master like you?' The master replies 'many, many years, young one...' The student then asks 'what if I work twice as hard?' to which the master replies 'It will then take you twice as long, for you will always have one eye on the outcome, leaving only one eye in the present with which to study...'"
> 
> Please, I mean no disrespect in our exchange...We need not agree...only value each others' process.
> 
> Peace to You...be well...*



I don't agree with all eastern philosophy. The philosophy about something taking twice as long when they work twice as hard is one of those philosophies that I don't particularly agree with, by that logic, if I did absolutely nothing I would get to my goal instantaneously. From my own experience in the real world the harder and more efficient you work the sooner you reach your goals and you get more out of the process. That is why the USA is such a great country that it is, our forefathers worked hard and America has a strong work ethic and your classic American philosophy is to set a goal and go for it. As an American and as a former Boy Scout I follow that philosophy. If you want to get a college degree it makes sense to know what classes you have to take, doesn't it? 

In Boyscouts, becoming an Eagle Scout, the top level, takes so many years and you have to get so many merit badges and do some other stuff. Now, lets say you work harder and get twice the number of merit badges in half the time as well as fulfilling the other requirements, you will become an Eagle Scout all the sooner which seems to be exactly the opposite of that philosophy about a student working twice as hard and taking twice as long to reach their goal as a result of that.

Furthermore, to become an Eagle Scout you do need to talk to your scoutmaster about it. One of the requirements to be an Eagle Scout is a community service project and for that you have to talk to your scoutmaster about it so that he can set you up with something. Furthermore to be an Eagle Scout does have a time limit, you have to do it before you turn 18 so you have to talk to your scoutmaster about it before its too late. Even if it didn't have a time limit you would still need to talk to your scoutmaster some time or another if you ever want to be an Eagle Scout so that he can set you up with a community service project, otherwise you will never be an Eagle Scout even if you had a million years. Sometimes, quite often, its necessary to talk to a teacher, sensei, instructor, just to get the proper information.

Personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to get a black belt, an Eagle badge, or an A in a class. Those are goals, levels of achievement, and that is what the great USA is built on, levels of achievement. 

I am only speaking from my own experience from the situation that I was in, it practically ruined my life when I followed the philosophy of just trusting int he process and not talking to the instructor and not getting the proper information.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

PhotonGuy said:


> I don't agree with all eastern philosophy. The philosophy about something taking twice as long when they work twice as hard is one of those philosophies that I don't particularly agree with, by that logic, if I did absolutely nothing I would get to my goal instantaneously. From my own experience in the real world the harder and more efficient you work the sooner you reach your goals and you get more out of the process. That is why the USA is such a great country that it is, our forefathers worked hard and America has a strong work ethic and your classic American philosophy is to set a goal and go for it. As an American and as a former Boy Scout I follow that philosophy. If you want to get a college degree it makes sense to know what classes you have to take, doesn't it?


Except that taking twice as long when you work twice as hard is not part of eastern philosophy.  It is part of your personal fantasy about what eastern philosophy is.  You can agree or disagree with eastern philosophy all you want, but you should at least understand it before commenting on it.  



PhotonGuy said:


> In Boyscouts, becoming an Eagle Scout, the top level, takes so many years and you have to get so many merit badges and do some other stuff. Now, lets say you work harder and get twice the number of merit badges in half the time as well as fulfilling the other requirements, you will become an Eagle Scout all the sooner which seems to be exactly the opposite of that philosophy about a student working twice as hard and taking twice as long to reach their goal as a result of that.
> 
> Furthermore, to become an Eagle Scout you do need to talk to your scoutmaster about it. One of the requirements to be an Eagle Scout is a community service project and for that you have to talk to your scoutmaster about it so that he can set you up with something. Furthermore to be an Eagle Scout does have a time limit, you have to do it before you turn 18 so you have to talk to your scoutmaster about it before its too late. Even if it didn't have a time limit you would still need to talk to your scoutmaster some time or another if you ever want to be an Eagle Scout so that he can set you up with a community service project, otherwise you will never be an Eagle Scout even if you had a million years. Sometimes, quite often, its necessary to talk to a teacher, sensei, instructor, just to get the proper information.


What is the reason for your preoccupation with the boy scouts?  It comes up a lot in your posts.  



PhotonGuy said:


> Personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to get a black belt, an Eagle badge, or an A in a class. Those are goals, levels of achievement, and that is what the great USA is built on, levels of achievement.


Except that those are not levels of achievement.  They're symbols.  They _represent _achievements, but are not the achievement themselves.  A medal of honor by itself is worthless.  It is the act of bravery for which it is awarded that makes it meaningful.  

As for wanting merit badges, black belts, and an A in class, what you should really be wanting are the things that those items represent.  A black belt represents training and a level of skill designated by the org/system.  You either have it or you don't, regardless of the color of your gi accessory.  An "A" is just ink on a paper.  It is the knowledge and the time you spent learning it that that letter represents that are important, not the arbitrary character scrawled on a piece of paper.  



PhotonGuy said:


> I am only speaking from my own experience from the situation that I was in, it practically ruined my life when I followed the philosophy of just trusting int he process and not talking to the instructor and not getting the proper information.



How was your life practically ruined by not making Eagle Scout?  Serious question, no sarcasm.

And if you opted not to speak to your scoutmaster about (presumably, this ruining of your life is tied up in scouting), what has that to do with eastern philosophy?  Again, serious question, no sarcasm.

Incidentally, the idea of aloof superiors that nobody can approach is not an east/west phenomenon; it exists in all cultures, including western society.  There are many proverbs, fables, and sayings in western philosophy that reinforce the authority of one's elders and which are designed to discourage you from questioning them.


----------



## David Lader

*In regard to the story of the master telling his student that the journey to black belt will take twice as long, the message is not a literal one...

The lesson is intended to guide us in a general direction - a direction that looks like living in the moment. It is important to plan, communicate, and ask questions along the way, and, in our culture, which is increasingly noteworthy for its profound spiritual bankruptcy, finding a balance between "taking care of business" and trusting in God, Allah, the Creator, the Universe, or whatever you're into, seems to be a paramount concern.

"Trust in Allah and tether your camel" doesn't mean we should become Muslim... "Trust in God and tether your horse" works fine as well. Again, it's not about being literal... 

Finally, and most importantly, as painful and uncomfortable as life can be, other people cannot "ruin" my life... I must be accountable and responsible and look at my part in each uncomfortable mess that life throws my way... I'm not suggesting that others can't hurt me and my loved ones in remarkable ways... I'm suggesting, as Eleanor Roosevelt put it, "No one can make me feel inferior without my consent..." Please, one last time - this is not to be taken 100% literally...there is a brilliant lesson here... Please do not miss the "gem" because of an argument that a drunk driver wiped out my entire family while I was watching... I must look for the gem, and try to keep an open mind... When a sign with an arrow says "Go this way to the town of Enlightenment," my job isn't to climb up the sign and hold on for dear life - it's simply an arrow to guide me in a general direction... When I clamber up the sign, I'm called a "fundamentalist..."

Be Well.*


----------



## David Lader

I appreciate your comments...
Each seemed very wise and thoughtful.
My approach has been less direct, and I value both of our approaches to this man's comments and questions.
Perhaps it is time for me to move on, as I am starting to sense unnecessary tension, and I do not intend to argue.
Be Well.


----------



## lklawson

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Except that those are not levels of achievement.  They're symbols.  They _represent _achievements, but are not the achievement themselves.  A medal of honor by itself is worthless.  It is the act of bravery for which it is awarded that makes it meaningful.
> 
> As for wanting merit badges, black belts, and an A in class, what you should really be wanting are the things that those items represent.  A black belt represents training and a level of skill designated by the org/system.  You either have it or you don't, regardless of the color of your gi accessory.  An "A" is just ink on a paper.  It is the knowledge and the time you spent learning it that that letter represents that are important, not the arbitrary character scrawled on a piece of paper.


Those symbols, accessories, and ink are generally accepted as evidence, proof if you will, of the skills they represent.  Many jobs require a Certificate in order to apply for the job.  Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer or Red Hat Certified Technician certificates are both accepted industry standards for the holder having a certain minimum level of skill and knowledge.  If I present my RHCT to an employer then he knows I have, at the minimum, proven a certain minimum skill set by passing certain lab tests and he can reasonably assume that I have a base set of skills.  The representation of the skill is considered proof of skill itself.

Similarly, a Boy Scout merit badge in Orienteering (or whatever) is considered to mean that the holder has a given minimum skill using a compass and a map.  If some kid shows you his BSA Orienteering badge then you *expect* that he darn well knows at least how to align north on a map and go from point A to point B.

If some kid says the got a 'A' in Geometry but doesn't know the Pythagorean theorem then you're probably going to call "bull" because you know that it's a fundamental skill to geometry which you expect someone who made an 'A' to know.

I admit that it gets a lot more confusing when we slip into "Black Belt."  You *expect* that symbol to be *proof* a certain minimum level of skill and knowledge.  But because there's a gazillion different systems, styles, and organizations, exactly what minimum of what skill and what knowledge could be anything.  At that point it is nearly meaningless unless you're familiar with the owner's specific style and branch.

But, hey, it sounds impressive anyway.

View attachment $6858.strip.gif

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## PhotonGuy

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Except that taking twice as long when you work twice as hard is not part of eastern philosophy.  It is part of your personal fantasy about what eastern philosophy is.  You can agree or disagree with eastern philosophy all you want, but you should at least understand it before commenting on it.



    That is just how I interpret it but if I'm wrong than I stand corrected. 



Daniel Sullivan said:


> What is the reason for your preoccupation with the boy scouts?  It comes up a lot in your posts.



     I like to talk about boy scouts and the Eagle Scout rank because it is a good example of something in life that has a set time limit. BSA is also is a good American organization and teaches American philosophy which I live by, being an American and all.



Daniel Sullivan said:


> Except that those are not levels of achievement.  They're symbols.  They _represent _achievements, but are not the achievement themselves.  A medal of honor by itself is worthless.  It is the act of bravery for which it is awarded that makes it meaningful.
> 
> As for wanting merit badges, black belts, and an A in class, what you should really be wanting are the things that those items represent.  A black belt represents training and a level of skill designated by the org/system.  You either have it or you don't, regardless of the color of your gi accessory.  An "A" is just ink on a paper.  It is the knowledge and the time you spent learning it that that letter represents that are important, not the arbitrary character scrawled on a piece of paper.



    True. As I said before, anybody can buy a black belt from a store for about $5-$10. The knowledge, time, and ability is what really matters but I see nothing wrong with also wanting the symbols that result in the knowledge, time, and ability, be it an A, a black belt, an eagle badge, or whatever else. And to get it, you need to know what your teacher's, sensei's, instructor's standards are and that often involves talking with said person.




Daniel Sullivan said:


> How was your life practically ruined by not making Eagle Scout?  Serious question, no sarcasm.



     My life was not practically ruined by not making Eagle Scout, it was practically ruined by not making this other goal, specifically a martial arts goal, within a certain time limit. Whenever I have a goal, usually if not always part of the very goal itself is to get it done within a certain time limit. The reason I keep talking about the rank of Eagle Scout is because, as I said before in this post, being an Eagle Scout is a good example of something that has a set time limit. But even if you have a goal that doesn't have a time limit that is put in place by an organization such as BSA (Boyscouts of America) the goal might have a time limit that you have for yourself.



Daniel Sullivan said:


> And if you opted not to speak to your scoutmaster about (presumably, this ruining of your life is tied up in scouting), what has that to do with eastern philosophy?  Again, serious question, no sarcasm.



    See above. It was not my scoutmaster that I opted not to speak to it was my sensei that I opted not to speak to, a big mistake on my part. Sometimes its hard to talk to authority figures.



Daniel Sullivan said:


> Incidentally, the idea of aloof superiors that nobody can approach is not an east/west phenomenon; it exists in all cultures, including western society.  There are many proverbs, fables, and sayings in western philosophy that reinforce the authority of one's elders and which are designed to discourage you from questioning them.



      Yet in the USA students are encouraged to talk to teachers if they want to do well in a class. Sports players are encouraged to talk to their coaches if they need help in their sport. If I was a teacher, be it an academic teacher, a sports coach, or for that matter a martial arts instructor I wouldn't mind students questioning me about stuff they needed help with or if they wanted to know what my standards are, as a matter of fact I would encourage it. As I said in an earlier post in this board, you've got a mouth you've got to use it.


----------



## PhotonGuy

David Lader said:


> I appreciate your comments...
> Each seemed very wise and thoughtful.
> My approach has been less direct, and I value both of our approaches to this man's comments and questions.
> Perhaps it is time for me to move on, as I am starting to sense unnecessary tension, and I do not intend to argue.
> Be Well.



   There is no tension. Debate is good. I often like it when people disagree with and challenge my approaches. If we always agreed with everything we would get nowhere and it would be boring. Please stay. No hard feelings.


----------



## PhotonGuy

lklawson said:


> If some kid says the got a 'A' in Geometry but doesn't know the Pythagorean theorem then you're probably going to call "bull" because you know that it's a fundamental skill to geometry which you expect someone who made an 'A' to know.



     The Pythagorean theorem has to do with right triangles. It states that A squared plus B squared equals C squared. So the scarecrow was wrong after he got his diploma from the Wizard of Oz when he started talking about isosceles triangles, perhaps he didn't have a brain after all. I just had to say that, I couldn't resist. 



lklawson said:


> I admit that it gets a lot more confusing when we slip into "Black Belt."  You *expect* that symbol to be *proof* a certain minimum level of skill and knowledge.  But because there's a gazillion different systems, styles, and organizations, exactly what minimum of what skill and what knowledge could be anything.  At that point it is nearly meaningless unless you're familiar with the owner's specific style and branch.


 
     Yes and you also have to take into account the gazillion different standards that each sensei or instructor has. The level of standards can be as different as night and day.


----------



## CK1980

I think, probably most everywhere, when you take your Black Belt test- it is more of a measure of learned ability and proficiency.  This is probably where the original poster is getting the notion that it is a large step.

I know that when I was actively studying, the main school I went to- you pre-tested for 3 days before your test.  That was for EVERY belt though.  The instructor would let you know that you were going to be testing on [date] and that the next 3 class periods were mandatory.  "Miss one and you don't test".  The 3 pre-test dates were your evaluation on material (past and present).  This included forms, demonstrations, sparring, and tradition.  On test night, you had to demonstrate your current form (flawlessly), demonstrate physical conditioning, and fight for a 3 minute round with specific striking goals that had to be met.  At certain levels, you went from 1 round to 2 rounds and up to black belt being 5 rounds.   As a final note on that, it was always the head instructor who decided if you were going to test.  If you had the notion to ask him if you were testing, the answer was "no".  His reason, if you have to ask, then you aren't ready.  Again, that was with EVERY belt.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

PhotonGuy said:


> My life was not practically ruined by not making Eagle Scout, it was practically ruined by not making this other goal, specifically a martial arts goal, within a certain time limit.


Okay.  How was your life practically ruined by not making a martial arts goal?


----------



## David Lader

Good question...


----------



## geezer

PhotonGuy said:


> My life was not practically ruined by not making Eagle Scout, it was practically ruined by not making this other goal, specifically a martial arts goal, within a certain time limit. Whenever I have a goal, usually if not always part of the very goal itself is to get it done within a certain time limit...



_Your life practically ruined?_ That's too bad. Sounds like you learned a much needed lesson in handling life's disappointments. After all regardless of how hard you work at something, or how much you may feel you've earned it, you will sometimes fail to acheive your objective. Everybody does. Learning to lose is just as important as striving to win. 

Heck back around 1970 I set a more limited goal of wanting to make "Life-Scout", or at least "Star" --the equivalent of "officer ranks" as we were told by our highly militaristic local scout troop leader. We spent a lot of time marching and stuff. It was during the Vietnam War, after all. 

Well my school didn't have a scout troop, so I joined the troop located in a neighboring district. ...our rivals, if you will. And I found out that no matter how many "merit badges" you earned, you had to "show leadership qualities" by being elected "patrol leader" to advance beyond "First Class". Small for my age, nerdy, and coming from outside the local group, I lost three elections in a row. There was no way for me to advance. So I dealt with it, and dropped out. 

I set a different objective, and began learning to fly.  I tested for and earned my pilots license by the age of 18. I wasn't a quitter for leaving the scouts. Nor was the scouts a "bad" organization. I had a lot of fun with them. It's just that things don't always work out the way you plan them. Life requires that you make choices. 




PhotonGuy said:


> Yet in the USA students are encouraged to talk to teachers if they want to do well in a class. Sports players are encouraged to talk to their coaches if they need help in their sport. If I was a teacher, be it an academic teacher, a sports coach, or for that matter a martial arts instructor I wouldn't mind students questioning me about stuff they needed help with or if they wanted to know what my standards are, as a matter of fact I would encourage it. As I said in an earlier post in this board, you've got a mouth you've got to use it.



I can agree with this. Ever thought about a career that involves teaching?


----------



## PhotonGuy

CK1980 said:


> I think, probably most everywhere, when you take your Black Belt test- it is more of a measure of learned ability and proficiency.  This is probably where the original poster is getting the notion that it is a large step.
> 
> I know that when I was actively studying, the main school I went to- you pre-tested for 3 days before your test.  That was for EVERY belt though.  The instructor would let you know that you were going to be testing on [date] and that the next 3 class periods were mandatory.  "Miss one and you don't test".  The 3 pre-test dates were your evaluation on material (past and present).  This included forms, demonstrations, sparring, and tradition.  On test night, you had to demonstrate your current form (flawlessly), demonstrate physical conditioning, and fight for a 3 minute round with specific striking goals that had to be met.  At certain levels, you went from 1 round to 2 rounds and up to black belt being 5 rounds.   As a final note on that, it was always the head instructor who decided if you were going to test.  If you had the notion to ask him if you were testing, the answer was "no".  His reason, if you have to ask, then you aren't ready.  Again, that was with EVERY belt.



     Rather than asking your instructor if you were testing, the sensible thing to do would be to ask the instructor what you need to do to qualify for testing, what you need to do to qualify for the next belt, or what you need to do to be ready to test the next time a test is scheduled. This would include asking him about what you need to do to qualify for the black belt if that happens to be the next belt. He is the instructor and with him being the instructor and all he sets the standards, but it makes sense to ask what you need to do to meet his standards, doesn't it?


----------



## PhotonGuy

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Okay.  How was your life practically ruined by not making a martial arts goal?



     I could tell you my story but it might be a bit long. I would like to tell it but most people probably don't want to hear stories about my life, but I would like to post it if you want to sit through it.


----------



## PhotonGuy

geezer said:


> _Your life practically ruined?_ That's too bad. Sounds like you learned a much needed lesson in handling life's disappointments. After all regardless of how hard you work at something, or how much you may feel you've earned it, you will sometimes fail to acheive your objective. Everybody does. Learning to lose is just as important as striving to win.
> 
> Heck back around 1970 I set a more limited goal of wanting to make "Life-Scout", or at least "Star" --the equivalent of "officer ranks" as we were told by our highly militaristic local scout troop leader. We spent a lot of time marching and stuff. It was during the Vietnam War, after all.
> 
> Well my school didn't have a scout troop, so I joined the troop located in a neighboring district. ...our rivals, if you will. And I found out that no matter how many "merit badges" you earned, you had to "show leadership qualities" by being elected "patrol leader" to advance beyond "First Class". Small for my age, nerdy, and coming from outside the local group, I lost three elections in a row. There was no way for me to advance. So I dealt with it, and dropped out.
> 
> I set a different objective, and began learning to fly.  I tested for and earned my pilots license by the age of 18. I wasn't a quitter for leaving the scouts. Nor was the scouts a "bad" organization. I had a lot of fun with them. It's just that things don't always work out the way you plan them. Life requires that you make choices.


Failure and losing is one thing, we are all going to experience some failure in life even the best of us. Chronic failure is something else. To fail at something time and time again can be a big problem, especially if there is a time limit you need to meet to reach your goal. Even losing three elections in a row is not all that bad and most of us will experience something like that, somehow or another, but to lose maybe ten elections in a row or to keep losing elections when your 18th birthday draws near, that can cause big problems. However, and this is just my observation, you sound like being an eagle scout was perhaps not a major desire in your life and you did find this other great passion, flying. As for me, I was 14 and a Star Scout when I stopped being a boyscout. The reason I stopped was because number one, a family situation and number two, the situation with my troop, the troop was deteriorating and much of it had to do with our scoutmaster thinking about resigning and there was nobody to take his place. As it was, I didn't have a burning desire to be an Eagle Scout. For me to make Eagle Scout it would've been nice but it wasn't something that I was super obsessed with. If I did have a burning desire to make Eagle Scout I would've worked through my family situation and joined another troop and done it, but it wasn't something that was super important to me. You sound much the same way and you found something else to do and Im sure you had many positive experiences in boyscouts as did I. I just had my mind set on other stuff, Martial arts, for instance, is something that is super important to me. 



geezer said:


> I can agree with this. Ever thought about a career that involves teaching?



     Yes, I want to be a martial arts instructor someday. I want to make a living in the martial arts and one of the best ways to do that is by teaching.


----------



## David Lader

I'm interested...Please share...


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

PhotonGuy said:


> I could tell you my story but it might be a bit long. I would like to tell it but most people probably don't want to hear stories about my life, but I would like to post it if you want to sit through it.


We're all telling stories about our life to a certain extent.  I am trying to understand your point of view.  You say that not meeting a marital arts goal practically ruined your life.  This clearly drives your perspective on testing, so I would like to understand it.


----------



## David Lader

...very thoughtful way to express your interest in this man's story...
Thanks for your respectful approach.


----------



## Dirty Dog

PhotonGuy said:


> I could tell you my story but it might be a bit long. I would like to tell it but most people probably don't want to hear stories about my life, but I would like to post it if you want to sit through it.



If someone doesn't want to read your story, they can scroll right on past, or put you on ignore. Post away.


----------



## lklawson

geezer said:


> And I found out that no matter how many "merit badges" you earned, you had to "show leadership qualities" by being elected "patrol leader" to advance beyond "First Class".


You were mislead, possibly accidentally, possibly deliberately.  The Scouting requirement has always been to show "leadership qualities" but attaining Patrol Leader has never been a requirement.  It's possible that you Scoutmaster didn't know the difference.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Balrog

PhotonGuy said:


> My life was not practically ruined by not making Eagle Scout, it was practically ruined by not making this other goal, specifically a martial arts goal, within a certain time limit. Whenever I have a goal, usually if not always part of the very goal itself is to get it done within a certain time limit.


The concept of SMART goals is that any goal should be: Specific, Measurable, Attainable, Relevant, Time-based.  Getting it done within a certain timeframe is a key ingredient.

However, there is also the concept of "monitor and adjust".  Suppose I set a goal to start martial arts training and achieve the rank of 1st Degree Black Belt by no later than 31 December 2017 (just to pick a date).  That is definitely specific (1st Degree); it's definitely attainable (thousands of others have done it); it's measureable (progress through the colored belt ranks); it's relevant (it will improve me mentally and physically); and it's time-based (target date).

But suppose that life intervenes in my plan.  I get hung up on a colored belt rank, just can't seem to get the hang of the material.  Instead of spending four months at the rank as planned, let's say I spend eight months.  As a result, I will miss the December 2017 testing.  What do I do?  Is it the end of the world?  No, I simply adjust my target date to the next testing and continue onward.

In real life, I'm a perfect example of this.  I promoted to 6th Degree Black Belt in October of 2012.  But I tested the first time in June of 2010.  That was my target date.  I no-changed.  My next chance to test was four months later.  I no-changed then as well.  It took me seven attempts before I finally got my act together and made it. But each time, I adjusted the target date and continued working the goal to improve what I needed to until I was successful.  And now I have a new SMART goal:  7th Degree, July 2018.

My life wasn't ruined by not hitting my goal.  I'm not sure I understand why you say your life practically was.  What am I missing?


----------



## MJS

PhotonGuy said:


> My life was not practically ruined by not making Eagle Scout, it was practically ruined by not making this other goal, specifically a martial arts goal, within a certain time limit. Whenever I have a goal, usually if not always part of the very goal itself is to get it done within a certain time limit. The reason I keep talking about the rank of Eagle Scout is because, as I said before in this post, being an Eagle Scout is a good example of something that has a set time limit. But even if you have a goal that doesn't have a time limit that is put in place by an organization such as BSA (Boyscouts of America) the goal might have a time limit that you have for yourself.



Umm...practically ruined?  Seriously??  Sorry, but that's just crazy if you ask me.  What's the rush or worry with a time limit?  Whenever it happens, it happens.  Who cares if its 2 days, 2 weeks, or 2 years??  





> See above. It was not my scoutmaster that I opted not to speak to it was my sensei that I opted not to speak to, a big mistake on my part. Sometimes its hard to talk to authority figures.
> 
> Yet in the USA students are encouraged to talk to teachers if they want to do well in a class. Sports players are encouraged to talk to their coaches if they need help in their sport. If I was a teacher, be it an academic teacher, a sports coach, or for that matter a martial arts instructor I wouldn't mind students questioning me about stuff they needed help with or if they wanted to know what my standards are, as a matter of fact I would encourage it. As I said in an earlier post in this board, you've got a mouth you've got to use it.



Sure, it can be a bit intimidating, but there's no need to worry about talking to an authority figure.  All of my teachers, with the exception of my current one, have been American.  My current teacher is Japanese.  Many times, I've talked to him after a class, asking for advice, or asking how I can improve on something, etc.  Given the fact that there is a language barrier, as well as a huge difference in tradition, I choose my wording carefully, A) so as to not offend him, and B) so I can ensure that the way I'm wording my question, is understood.


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## Daniel Sullivan

MJS said:


> Umm...practically ruined?  Seriously??  Sorry, but that's just crazy if you ask me.  What's the rush or worry with a time limit?  Whenever it happens, it happens.  Who cares if its 2 days, 2 weeks, or 2 years??


Or perhaps there is more to it than a simple missing of the date.  Which is why I asked him to share his story.  Which he will, if he's comfortable, and will not if he is not.

It is easy for me to say that something is crazy from across the internet, but unless I know the realities of what another person went through, how much do I really know?


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## Dirty Dog

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Or perhaps there is more to it than a simple missing of the date.  Which is why I asked him to share his story.  Which he will, if he's comfortable, and will not if he is not.
> 
> It is easy for me to say that something is crazy from across the internet, but unless I know the realities of what another person went through, how much do I really know?



I have to admit I'm with MJS on this. I'd like to hear the story in order to understand where he's coming from. In part because I have trouble imagining how missing a belt rank goal could be so devastating. Losing your job, your home, your family... these are devastating. Not changing your belt color? I can see how that would ruin the after-test celebratory dinner. That's why I'd like to hear the story.


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## MJS

Dirty Dog said:


> I have to admit I'm with MJS on this. I'd like to hear the story in order to understand where he's coming from. In part because I have trouble imagining how missing a belt rank goal could be so devastating. Losing your job, your home, your family... these are devastating. Not changing your belt color? I can see how that would ruin the after-test celebratory dinner. That's why I'd like to hear the story.



Yup, that pretty much sums up the point I was trying to make.


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## CK1980

I would personally think that missing a belt change would be more of a slap to your ego than anything else...  And if you feel devastated, then its a good thing...  It means you _needed_ for it to happen.  It puts things in perspective...  Use it as a learning experience.

As with the others, knowing the full story would help with understanding the issue...


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## Blindside

Daniel Sullivan said:


> It isn't always a matter of fault.  Some students progress at the rate they progress.  You can't make a student move at a pace they are incapable of attaining or maintaining.  The end result is a hurried and half baked first degree.
> 
> But first degree is really meaningless.  If you are associating awarding of merit badges with progress, then you're operating under false premise.  Students who are worried about merit badges and rank are there for the wrong reason.  I'm happy to have them (a paying student is a paying student), and in time, some mature and get past their preoccupation with meaningless merit badges.  Others attain their badges but miss some of the sights along the way.
> 
> Don't be focused on merit badges.  And truly, that is what colored belts are.  Set actual training goals and when you're in class, focus on what is being taught and on what you're doing (this is to the general you, not specifically you).



I found the color belt system very useful as a kenpo underbelt, I set target goals of when I wanted to accomplish that goal (belt) and worked toward it.  Somewhere in my files I have an excel file with target dates and what I needed to do between those dates. Assuming belts are a measure of proficiency (and if they aren't why have them), they represent the tangible accomplishment of the training.  Sure I was working toward the belt, but to get the belt I needed the skills of that belt.  Made perfect sense to me.  

After getting my blackbelt I stopped chasing rank, I didn't stop studying, but I stopped pursuing rank as a goal.  Nowadays I run classes (in a different art) that is based on a simple student or instructor ranking system.  Seems to work just fine as well, though I suspect my retention might be a little higher with a belt system or something similar.


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## Daniel Sullivan

Blindside said:


> I found the color belt system very useful as a kenpo underbelt, I set target goals of when I wanted to accomplish that goal (belt) and worked toward it.  Somewhere in my files I have an excel file with target dates and what I needed to do between those dates. Assuming belts are a measure of proficiency (and if they aren't why have them), they represent the tangible accomplishment of the training.  Sure I was working toward the belt, but to get the belt I needed the skills of that belt.  Made perfect sense to me.


I agree; a belt or equivalent system is great for goal setting, and is probably the most useful element of such systems for students. 



Blindside said:


> After getting my blackbelt I stopped chasing rank, I didn't stop studying, but I stopped pursuing rank as a goal.  Nowadays I run classes (in a different art) that is based on a simple student or instructor ranking system.  Seems to work just fine as well, though I suspect my retention might be a little higher with a belt system or something similar.


Training to achieve training goals rather than to achieve rank is one of the marks of maturation of the practitioner.


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## Daniel Sullivan

Dirty Dog said:


> I have to admit I'm with MJS on this. I'd like to hear the story in order to understand where he's coming from. In part because I have trouble imagining how missing a belt rank goal could be so devastating. Losing your job, your home, your family... these are devastating. Not changing your belt color? I can see how that would ruin the after-test celebratory dinner. That's why I'd like to hear the story.


I suspect that it was more than the change of belt color that is at issue, but since he hasn't shared the story, this is all just speculation.


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## lklawson

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I agree; a belt or equivalent system is great for goal setting, and is probably the most useful element of such systems for students.
> 
> 
> Training to achieve training goals rather than to achieve rank is one of the marks of maturation of the practitioner.


In many ways, modern Olympic style Fencing has similar constructs with similar advantages.  The requirements for Coach, Provost, and Maestro are pretty easy to find, if not always easy to achieve, as are individual fencer's Points, Ratings, and Classifications.

Even Ratings is things like national Chess leagues are pretty similar.  If you want a certain Standing, you know what is needed to achieve it.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## David Lader

Can we all please hear the actual story that inspired this thread in the first place?  I am extremely curious and somewhat baffled by the amount of energy we have all put into this without knowing how this man's life was "ruined..."


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## PhotonGuy

There have been posts here about people wanting to hear my story. Anybody who wants to hear my story about how failing to make a certain goal within a certain time limit practically ruined my life here it is. This will be long so if you plan to sit through this, as I said, its a long post.


The way its done at my dojo is that they hold promotion tests every three to four months. You decide if you want to test for your next belt up and if you want to test you sign up at your own discretion by filling out a form, paying a testing fee, and then testing on the test date. Just because you take the test does not mean you will pass, people do fail so another words, you don't get belt ranks handed to you, you do have to perform well enough in the test to pass and especially for some of the higher belts the standards for passing are quite high. Now, anybody who considers my place a McDojo because it allows students to decide for themselves to test, you're entitled to your opinion although I don't think you would consider my place a McDojo if you ever visited. But that's beside the point, I am not trying to debate whether or not my place is a McDojo Im just explaining how things are done at my place and as I said, just because a person chooses to test does not mean they will pass, people do fail especially at the higher belts. 


I've posted quite a bit about Boycscouts and particularly the rank of Eagle Scout, how it has a cutoff point where you have to be under the age of 18 to become an Eagle Scout. I've been using that because it is a good example of something that has a set time limit. However, Eagle Scout is not the only thing that has a time limit, most of not everything in life has time limits of some sort. If anything, the fact that you've got only so long to live is the ultimate time limit for everything you do in this life. But aside from that, even if you have a goal that doesn't have a time limit that is established by a certain organization or whatnot (such as the Boyscouts Of America organization) you might still have a time limit for a certain goal that you establish yourself. For just about all my goals, as part of the very goal itself, I have a self established time limit in which to get it done. My self established time limits are usually quite reasonable and so if I don't meet them, I am very upset, even downright depressed and sometimes, quite ticked off to put it mildly. One of the self established time limits I had for myself in the martial arts was to make blackbelt before I turned 20. At my dojo, they do not require you to be under 20 to get a black belt but it was a requirement I had for myself and it was very reasonable. Especially considering the fact that shortly after I turned 18 I became a high level brown belt. At my dojo, high level brown belt is the rank right before blackbelt, there are three levels to brown, low, middle, and high, and right after high level brown belt is blackbelt. Since I reached high level brown belt shortly after turning 18 I had almost two years to go that one extra step to blackbelt and achieve my goal of reaching blackbelt befure I turned 18. 


So anyway, there was this myth at my dojo that unlike when you test for any of the lower belts, to test for blackbelt you had to wait until the sensei told you that you could test. As I said, it was a myth but it was a very prevalent myth. Lots of the people in my dojo believed it including myself. The fact of the matter was that, when a student made high level brown belt, the student could then sign up to take the black belt test at their own discretion whenever they had promotion tests which was every three to four months. However, I did not know that, I believed the myth that I had to wait until the sensei told me I could test for blackbelt. So I waited and waited. My 20th birthday came and I still had not made blackbelt so I missed my goal. More years passed as I continued to wait for sensei to tell me I could take the blackbelt test and I was working really hard and to say I was really frustrated is a huge understatement. I was working really really super hard and still not making blackbelt as the years passed so it would be hard for anybody to imagine my frustration. That and my self esteem dropped to rock bottom. After all, I was working super hard and not making my goal and I was way past my time limit.


To conclude this, yes, I finally did make blackbelt when another student dispelled the myth about having to be told you could take the blackbelt test. The student had talked to the sensei himself and learned the truth and passed it on to me and others. It was then when I signed up for the blackbelt test, took it, and passed. While I finally did make blackbelt, I was way past the time limit of meeting my goal. I was 27, a few weeks short of turning 28 when I made blackbelt, so I was 8 years late in making my goal. So that is how not making a goal within a certain time limit practically ruined my life. To anybody who has read this, I would like to say thank you for sitting through this.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

I read it.  I have to ask if your use of the phrase "ruined your life" is hyperbole or literal.

If a self imposed goal of this nature truly came close to ruining your life, then it isn't the missing of the goal within a time limit that nearly ruined your life but an unrealistic amount of weight being placed on that goal.  

If your identity (speaking of the general you, not you specifically) is invested in something outside of yourself (and this is a fairly common thing), then it will be tied to the waxing and waning of whatever you've invested it in.  

This goes back to a comment that I made much earlier in this thread about confusing external symbols and badges of achievement with achievement itself.  Acquiring proficiency in technique is an achievement.  A black belt is just a piece of cloth that represents that achievement.  Yes, it is nice, but you've still made the achievement whether or not you have the belt.

Thank you for sharing the story.  I appreciate that you did so.


----------



## David Lader

I'm speechless.


----------



## lklawson

PhotonGuy said:


> There have been posts here about people wanting to hear my story. Anybody who wants to hear my story about how failing to make a certain goal within a certain time limit practically ruined my life here it is. This will be long so if you plan to sit through this, as I said, its a long post.


OK, I can see how that's indescribably frustrating and you have my sympathy.  Truly.

But I'm unclear on how it nearly ruined your life.  I can see that you "lost" about 7 years out of your goal time, but, aside from forcing you to wait 7 years longer, cumulatively, for every other belt rank, how did this ruin your life?  Did you slide into depression so bad that you lost jobs or ruined relationships?  Alcoholism?  Drugs?  Self harming behavior?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## lklawson

Daniel Sullivan said:


> If your identity (speaking of the general you, not you specifically) is invested in something outside of yourself (and this is a fairly common thing), then it will be tied to the waxing and waning of whatever you've invested it in.


That's just being a man.

If you watch any two men introducing themselves, one of the first things they ask each other is, "what do you do for a living."  Their response is invariably, "I'm a [x]."   I'm a lineman.  I'm a programmer.  I'm a teacher.  I'm a carpenter.  I'm a manager. 

"I *AM* a [x]" not "I do [x] for a living."

And, to be honest, same thing goes for martial arts.

Wanna know a secret?  I *AM* a martial artist.  OK, it ain't really a secret and I'm exaggerating a little bit.  But only a little.  My hobbies are very very important to my self identity.  Some day, I'm going to be too old, decrepit, busted up, to be a "martial artist" or to keep shooting, or, frankly, everything else I've always identified myself by.  Some day, I may suffer memory loss or dementia and my reliance on my mind will be gone too.  Maybe I'll suffer from an injury which will totally destroy my physicality and ability to be a martial artist or whatever.  How will I rectify not being a martial artist then?  Frankly I don't know.  But at least I've thought about it some, eh?  

It's just part of being a man.  I remember when my grandfather, a professional, accredited, Journeyman Carpenter, got severe rheumatoid arthritis in his hands.  The constant pain and deformation of the joints made him crabby.  But it also affected how he saw himself.  He was still a Carpenter, but he couldn't "do" any longer.  So was he really a Carpenter?  It's a blow to the ego.

Yeah, I know that we should all work to view ourselves as more than just what we do or what we physically contribute.  We all have "worth" greater than merely as a "producer."  But convince our lizard brains of that, eh?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk the Martial Artist <strike><strike><strike><strike><strike> Kirk the Man


----------



## MJS

PhotonGuy said:


> There have been posts here about people wanting to hear my story. Anybody who wants to hear my story about how failing to make a certain goal within a certain time limit practically ruined my life here it is. This will be long so if you plan to sit through this, as I said, its a long post.
> 
> 
> The way its done at my dojo is that they hold promotion tests every three to four months. You decide if you want to test for your next belt up and if you want to test you sign up at your own discretion by filling out a form, paying a testing fee, and then testing on the test date. Just because you take the test does not mean you will pass, people do fail so another words, you don't get belt ranks handed to you, you do have to perform well enough in the test to pass and especially for some of the higher belts the standards for passing are quite high. Now, anybody who considers my place a McDojo because it allows students to decide for themselves to test, you're entitled to your opinion although I don't think you would consider my place a McDojo if you ever visited. But that's beside the point, I am not trying to debate whether or not my place is a McDojo Im just explaining how things are done at my place and as I said, just because a person chooses to test does not mean they will pass, people do fail especially at the higher belts.
> 
> 
> I've posted quite a bit about Boycscouts and particularly the rank of Eagle Scout, how it has a cutoff point where you have to be under the age of 18 to become an Eagle Scout. I've been using that because it is a good example of something that has a set time limit. However, Eagle Scout is not the only thing that has a time limit, most of not everything in life has time limits of some sort. If anything, the fact that you've got only so long to live is the ultimate time limit for everything you do in this life. But aside from that, even if you have a goal that doesn't have a time limit that is established by a certain organization or whatnot (such as the Boyscouts Of America organization) you might still have a time limit for a certain goal that you establish yourself. For just about all my goals, as part of the very goal itself, I have a self established time limit in which to get it done. My self established time limits are usually quite reasonable and so if I don't meet them, I am very upset, even downright depressed and sometimes, quite ticked off to put it mildly. One of the self established time limits I had for myself in the martial arts was to make blackbelt before I turned 20. At my dojo, they do not require you to be under 20 to get a black belt but it was a requirement I had for myself and it was very reasonable. Especially considering the fact that shortly after I turned 18 I became a high level brown belt. At my dojo, high level brown belt is the rank right before blackbelt, there are three levels to brown, low, middle, and high, and right after high level brown belt is blackbelt. Since I reached high level brown belt shortly after turning 18 I had almost two years to go that one extra step to blackbelt and achieve my goal of reaching blackbelt befure I turned 18.
> 
> 
> So anyway, there was this myth at my dojo that unlike when you test for any of the lower belts, to test for blackbelt you had to wait until the sensei told you that you could test. As I said, it was a myth but it was a very prevalent myth. Lots of the people in my dojo believed it including myself. The fact of the matter was that, when a student made high level brown belt, the student could then sign up to take the black belt test at their own discretion whenever they had promotion tests which was every three to four months. However, I did not know that, I believed the myth that I had to wait until the sensei told me I could test for blackbelt. So I waited and waited. My 20th birthday came and I still had not made blackbelt so I missed my goal. More years passed as I continued to wait for sensei to tell me I could take the blackbelt test and I was working really hard and to say I was really frustrated is a huge understatement. I was working really really super hard and still not making blackbelt as the years passed so it would be hard for anybody to imagine my frustration. That and my self esteem dropped to rock bottom. After all, I was working super hard and not making my goal and I was way past my time limit.
> 
> 
> To conclude this, yes, I finally did make blackbelt when another student dispelled the myth about having to be told you could take the blackbelt test. The student had talked to the sensei himself and learned the truth and passed it on to me and others. It was then when I signed up for the blackbelt test, took it, and passed. While I finally did make blackbelt, I was way past the time limit of meeting my goal. I was 27, a few weeks short of turning 28 when I made blackbelt, so I was 8 years late in making my goal. So that is how not making a goal within a certain time limit practically ruined my life. To anybody who has read this, I would like to say thank you for sitting through this.



Well, thanks for taking the time to reply.  I'm just going to comment on a few things:

1) I still can't help but think it's a bit odd that a teacher would let a student decide for themselves, when to test.  Yes, I know you said that nothing says the student can't fail, but I do wonder why the teacher would allow the student to test, and then afterwards, tell them that they failed and need to work harder and try again.  Eliminate that, and instead, let the teacher, not the student, decide.  Could the student still fail, even if the teacher says they're ready?  Sure, but the odds should be lower.

2) As I've said before...what's the rush?  My current teacher allows students to test for black, when HE, not them, feels they're ready.  It wouldn't matter if I had a 2 yr goal or 10yr goal.  IMHO, I think that there are more important things in life to worry about, rather than not meeting a belt rank goal.  I certainly wouldn't say that that is something that would ruin ones life.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

MJS said:


> 1) I still can't help but think it's a bit odd that a teacher would let a student decide for themselves, when to test.  Yes, I know you said that nothing says the student can't fail, but I do wonder why the teacher would allow the student to test, and then afterwards, tell them that they failed and need to work harder and try again.  Eliminate that, and instead, let the teacher, not the student, decide.  Could the student still fail, even if the teacher says they're ready?  Sure, but the odds should be lower.


Outside of the martial arts, this is quite common.  Hate to say it, but we're the oddballs. 



MJS said:


> 2)* As I've said before...what's the rush?*  My current teacher allows students to test for black, when HE, not them, feels they're ready.  It wouldn't matter if I had a 2 yr goal or 10yr goal.  IMHO, I think that there are more important things in life to worry about, rather than not meeting a belt rank goal.  I certainly wouldn't say that that is something that would ruin ones life.



Indeed.  No need for a rush.  Training goals should be manageable and attainable, but more importantly, the focus should be on the immediate goals.  If you're a white belt or equivallent, focus on that matieral with the goal of mastering it.  If you build your skills, block by block, then the black belt becomes simply the next training goal and isn't a big, magical talisman that somehow transforms you.  More importantly, you've built a strong foundation upon which to build after you earn your black belt.


----------



## Blindside

PhotonGuy said:


> To conclude this, yes, I finally did make blackbelt when another student dispelled the myth about having to be told you could take the blackbelt test. The student had talked to the sensei himself and learned the truth and passed it on to me and others. It was then when I signed up for the blackbelt test, took it, and passed. While I finally did make blackbelt, I was way past the time limit of meeting my goal. I was 27, a few weeks short of turning 28 when I made blackbelt, so I was 8 years late in making my goal. So that is how not making a goal within a certain time limit practically ruined my life. To anybody who has read this, I would like to say thank you for sitting through this.



That.... sucks.  Sorry, at some point your instructor should have given you a kick in the *** and said "why the hell aren't you signing up, you are over ready."  In fact, I would say that it is a point of failing with your instructor.  A student avoiding a test may be doing because they lack self-confidence, your teacher SHOULD be addressing this if he is interested in your development.  I have seen students who have stopped pursuing rank, either because they didn't care or they didn't want to be an instructor, or they simply were not going to accomplish the technical requirements of the next rank.  However, I always knew why as an instructor they weren't doing so, and quite frankly as a fellow student I knew why.  I can't imagine watching a student stick at a rank for 10 years and just never ask "what that heck are you doing" and I wouldn't have asked it that politely.  10 years!  I went out and learned a new system to a full instructor rank in that time, something is just odd about this story.

Now, I am curious, when you did get your black, were you less proficient than the black belts who got tested years earlier than you?  Not in the # of forms that you did, but when you sparred or practiced self-defense techniques where did you stand in proficiency?


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## David Lader

I am also unclear about how this story "ruined a life..."  Kirk's response is very thoughtful and respectful...  I do know that it has become easier for me, with time, to tolerate life's pains and dissappointments more readily... When I was much younger, I was far more emotionally reactive to uncomfortable circumstances - I think this is fairly normal... It takes a great deal more to "knock folks off their center" as they mature.  I certainly mean no disrespect...Again, I think this is very much an age-related situation unless, of course, these events escalated into truly unmanagable life consequences such as loss of physical functioning, emotional stability, or financial security, etc...


----------



## MJS

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Outside of the martial arts, this is quite common.  Hate to say it, but we're the oddballs.



It does?  I don't know, maybe it's just been a long day, but to be honest, I'm drawing a blank on when this would apply in the real world.  





> Indeed.  No need for a rush.  Training goals should be manageable and attainable, but more importantly, the focus should be on the immediate goals.  If you're a white belt or equivallent, focus on that matieral with the goal of mastering it.  If you build your skills, block by block, then the black belt becomes simply the next training goal and isn't a big, magical talisman that somehow transforms you.  More importantly, you've built a strong foundation upon which to build after you earn your black belt.



Of course.  Would I like to get my BB in Kyokushin?  Of course.  Right now, my focus is on my immediate goal, as you say, and learning, performing, etc, to the best of my ability for my green belt.


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## Daniel Sullivan

MJS said:


> It does?  I don't know, maybe it's just been a long day, but to be honest, I'm drawing a blank on when this would apply in the real world.


People test for things without an instructor's blessing all the time.  Everything from drivers licenses to certifications in everything from HVAC to computer programming to various elements of auto mechanics.  

Then you have the academic model of preordered tests that everyone must take, pass or fail, with repeated failure meaning repetition of the grade, which is a different ball of wax.

Note that I'm not stumping for the testing method Photonguy describes, but it hardly is cause for wonder.  

 My actual opinion of it is this:  It is not a very productive way of grading in the martial arts, which is why I don't use it myself.  A student needs to reach a certain level of proficiency in one set of skills before moving onto the next because of the way that more advanced skills build upon more basic skills.  So it really isn't about testing but about the pace of training.  Tests are just artificial intervals invented to provide both attainable training goals and to enable a ranking system.  

Then you have the element of continued practice of the basics, without which, the more advanced skills will suffer.  My job as an instructor is not prepare students for tests but to train them.  Tests are useful tools in training my students but are not the end goal.


----------



## MJS

Daniel Sullivan said:


> People test for things without an instructor's blessing all the time.  Everything from drivers licenses to certifications in everything from HVAC to computer programming to various elements of auto mechanics.
> 
> Then you have the academic model of preordered tests that everyone must take, pass or fail, with repeated failure meaning repetition of the grade, which is a different ball of wax.
> 
> Note that I'm not stumping for the testing method Photonguy describes, but it hardly is cause for wonder.
> 
> My actual opinion of it is this:  It is not a very productive way of grading in the martial arts, which is why I don't use it myself.  A student needs to reach a certain level of proficiency in one set of skills before moving onto the next because of the way that more advanced skills build upon more basic skills.  So it really isn't about testing but about the pace of training.  Tests are just artificial intervals invented to provide both attainable training goals and to enable a ranking system.
> 
> Then you have the element of continued practice of the basics, without which, the more advanced skills will suffer.  My job as an instructor is not prepare students for tests but to train them.  Tests are useful tools in training my students but are not the end goal.



In the above situations though, you test after you've completed the required lessons, and the instructor signs off on it.  Unless things changed, you're telling me that you don't have to take a test or get cleared before you go for your DL?  I guess my point is...before you get the OK to test, you have to make sure that you know the material, no?  Wow, if that's not the case, then it's pretty scary to know that the guy who is, oh, I don't know, doing your plumbing, HVAC or electrical work, might not know what the hell he's doing.  

Maybe it's just me Dan, but speaking for myself, when I test for something, I want to make damn sure I know what I'm doing, and can perform to the highest standards, so as to ensure that the odds of me passing said test, are above average.  Furthermore, I still can't understand what the big fixation is with a time table.  I mean, who cares if it take 6yrs or 10yrs to get a BB?  Sorry, but it's not life or death and its certainly not anything to claim that it ruined your life.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

MJS said:


> In the above situations though, you test after you've completed the required lessons, and the instructor signs off on it.  Unless things changed, you're telling me that you don't have to take a test or get cleared before you go for your DL?  I guess my point is...before you get the OK to test, you have to make sure that you know the material, no?  Wow, if that's not the case, then it's pretty scary to know that the guy who is, oh, I don't know, doing your plumbing, HVAC or electrical work, might not know what the hell he's doing.



HVAC technicians, mechanics, etc., are constantly recertifying and keeping their skills current.  Yes, they take classes, or they learn the material on their own, but they don't need some special permission to take the test.  If they don't know the material, they don't pass and thus don't receive the certification.  Teens looking to get their license will face different requirements in different states, but once they've met whatever preparatory requirements are required, they may take the test at any time, no special permission needed.  And if they're unable to pass, they don't receive the license.  

So the end result is the same; not enough knowledge or skill, no certification.

And even with certifications, there's always a possibility that the technician, programmer, mechanic, doctor, laywer, or black belt doesn't know what they're doing.  While certifications are an indicator, they don't guarantee that you know what your doing; only that you passed the required test.  Which is why you have some shops that are notorious for screwing up your car.



MJS said:


> Maybe it's just me Dan, but speaking for myself, when I test for something, I want to make damn sure I know what I'm doing, and can perform to the highest standards, so as to ensure that the odds of me passing said test, are above average.


I don't disagree.  But I'm talking about testing practices.  Let's face it; outside of the martial arts, you don't sit around waiting for your teacher to tell you that you can test.  Courses run a set amount of time and you test at the end of the course.  If you don't pass, you retest.  

By contrast, in the martial arts, the notion of a set amount of time to test to blackbelt is viewed as some kind of heresy.  This is further complicated by the element of profit that is often a part of gradings. 

 As I said previously, I do not care for the idea of testing for MA grades the way that you test for technical certifications.  In a martial art training environment, it simply isn't productive in my opinion.  But I certainly wouldn't wonder about it if another school chooses to grade this way.  As I said, it is a fairly common method of testing outside of the martial arts.



MJS said:


> Furthermore, I still can't understand what the big fixation is with a time table.  I mean, who cares if it take 6yrs or 10yrs to get a BB?


I agreed with you on that in a prior response, but this is a separate issue from testing methodology.



MJS said:


> Sorry, but it's not life or death and its certainly not anything to claim that it ruined your life.


See my response to Photonguy on this.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

lklawson said:


> That's just being a man.
> 
> If you watch any two men introducing themselves, one of the first things they ask each other is, "what do you do for a living."  Their response is invariably, "I'm a [x]."   I'm a lineman.  I'm a programmer.  I'm a teacher.  I'm a carpenter.  I'm a manager.
> 
> "I *AM* a [x]" not "I do [x] for a living."
> 
> And, to be honest, same thing goes for martial arts.
> 
> Wanna know a secret?  I *AM* a martial artist.  OK, it ain't really a secret and I'm exaggerating a little bit.  But only a little.  My hobbies are very very important to my self identity.  Some day, I'm going to be too old, decrepit, busted up, to be a "martial artist" or to keep shooting, or, frankly, everything else I've always identified myself by.  Some day, I may suffer memory loss or dementia and my reliance on my mind will be gone too.  Maybe I'll suffer from an injury which will totally destroy my physicality and ability to be a martial artist or whatever.  How will I rectify not being a martial artist then?  Frankly I don't know.  But at least I've thought about it some, eh?
> 
> It's just part of being a man.  I remember when my grandfather, a professional, accredited, Journeyman Carpenter, got severe rheumatoid arthritis in his hands.  The constant pain and deformation of the joints made him crabby.  But it also affected how he saw himself.  He was still a Carpenter, but he couldn't "do" any longer.  So was he really a Carpenter?  It's a blow to the ego.
> 
> Yeah, I know that we should all work to view ourselves as more than just what we do or what we physically contribute.  We all have "worth" greater than merely as a "producer."  But convince our lizard brains of that, eh?
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk the Martial Artist <strike><strike><strike><strike><strike> Kirk the Man


Sure, that is the cultural norm for questions about one's livelihood or profession.  But what we are is temporary.  When I was in middle school, I couldn't wait to be an eighth grader because that meant that I was at the top of the student structure rather than the bottom or the middle.  But that was temporary.  The following year, I was a freshman and looked forward to being a senior.  Which only lasted a year, and then I was a freshman again.  But I was also now a young adult, not a teen.    

We are more than our profession, but we are also more than our current life stage.  I am a martial arts instructor, but one day, I may not be able to carry on in that capacity.  I may lose the ability through age, illness, injury or life circumstance.  Even our status as a human being is temporary.  One day we will die and no longer inhabit our body.  Regardless of one's beliefs on life after death, "we" will no longer be present in the shell we once inhabited.

Part of maturation is accepting the changes.  I see soooo many people who cling to their high school and college identities.  I see people so obsessed with defying age that they are willing to be duped into purchasing products and procedures that preserve their youthful looks to varrying degrees, but which do not in any way alter the stages of life or the passage of time.  To be obsessed with holding onto your youth is to be unreconciled with who you are.  

Then you have people who's identities are entirely wrapped up in their religion, political party, or nation of origin.  This is unhealthy.  Your religion may suffer scandal.  Your political party may change its platform or lose influence, or in some cases never gain influence.  Your nation of origin may be embark on destructive policy, be conquered, lose territory, be divided by civil war, lose economic stature, or simply cease to exist Compare a modern globe with a globe from the eighties).  If your identity is entirely wrapped up in such things then you are vulnerable to feelings of inadequacy, depression, or anxiety as those things that you have tied your identity to suffer.


----------



## lklawson

Daniel Sullivan said:


> As I said previously, I do not care for the idea of testing for MA grades the way that you test for technical certifications.  In a martial art training environment, it simply isn't productive in my opinion.


Honestly, why not?  As I wrote earlier, both are just physical skills.  Heck, there are some "technical training" courses where you spend class and "hands on" time learning the material at exactly the same rate and time as everyone else in the class, then at the end you take the test whether or not you or the instructor think your "ready."  There's a local welding school that uses this methodology, ims.

It's just as valid.

The point of the "test" is to ensure that the person can demonstrate working skills to the level of expectation of the test.  The point of the "certification" is merely to prove that a person passed the test, and therefore is tangible proof that the person demonstrated the minimum skill level required without having to "prove" it over and over again for each potential client/employer/student who wants to benefit from the certificate holder's skills.  The point of the class is to impart those minimum level of skills and prepare the student for the test.

Once we boil it down to these essentials, it is clear that there are many methods which will achieve them and the three most common are:

Student decides when he wants to test
Teacher decides when the student will test
Students test after a predetermined period regardless of the student or teacher's opinion on student readiness

Obviously, there are hybrids of each, but those are the basics and they've all been used to pass on and certify physical skills in students.

Martial Arts is just a physical skill.  It's not somehow special and different from other physical skills like welding or carpentry because it's "martial arts."

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## lklawson

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Part of maturation is accepting the changes.


Part of the maturation process is learning to override basic instincts with well thought out logic and wisdom.  It's natural, literally human nature and instinct, to wrap yourself up in identities in this way.  But so is being selfish or obsessed with sex.  It's just that some things are harder to mature about.  Sometimes this is because our culture doesn't recognize it as a necessity to mature over.  Society recognizes that children have to learn to suppress their selfishness and so those lessons are usually trained in and reinforced through primary school.  Society recognizes that giving total control to carnal desires is damaging to others and so we're taught not to rape and other important lessons, usually by the time we're young adults.  But our society has difficulty recognizing that we suffer if we constantly allow identities to be completely subsumed into some larger context.  In fact, society actively fights that.  Political parties, for instance, gain more power with members who unquestioningly "toe the party line" because that's *their team*.

Yes, our culture is a little bit schizophrenic.  On the one hand, we teach people how to overcome "base instinct" for personal and social benefit.  On the other hand, we manipulate "base instinct" to gain power and influence (and get BJ's in the Oval Office).

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## MJS

Daniel Sullivan said:


> HVAC technicians, mechanics, etc., are constantly recertifying and keeping their skills current.  Yes, they take classes, or they learn the material on their own, but they don't need some special permission to take the test.  If they don't know the material, they don't pass and thus don't receive the certification.  Teens looking to get their license will face different requirements in different states, but once they've met whatever preparatory requirements are required, they may take the test at any time, no special permission needed.  And if they're unable to pass, they don't receive the license.
> 
> So the end result is the same; not enough knowledge or skill, no certification.
> 
> And even with certifications, there's always a possibility that the technician, programmer, mechanic, doctor, laywer, or black belt doesn't know what they're doing.  While certifications are an indicator, they don't guarantee that you know what your doing; only that you passed the required test.  Which is why you have some shops that are notorious for screwing up your car.



Ok, so using this logic, it would be possible for someone in the martial arts, to take a belt test every month, correct?  If the student did all of the material correctly, they could realistically take and pass each test, therefore, getting their black belt in a years time, no?  If that is in fact true, do you feel that we should/could also apply that to education?  Rather than 12yrs of school, you get study your butt off, test and do it faster than 12yrs?  If this is/was possible, what're your thoughts on it?




> I don't disagree.  But I'm talking about testing practices.  Let's face it; outside of the martial arts, you don't sit around waiting for your teacher to tell you that you can test.  Courses run a set amount of time and you test at the end of the course.  If you don't pass, you retest.
> 
> By contrast, in the martial arts, the notion of a set amount of time to test to blackbelt is viewed as some kind of heresy.  This is further complicated by the element of profit that is often a part of gradings.
> 
> As I said previously, I do not care for the idea of testing for MA grades the way that you test for technical certifications.  In a martial art training environment, it simply isn't productive in my opinion.  But I certainly wouldn't wonder about it if another school chooses to grade this way.  As I said, it is a fairly common method of testing outside of the martial arts.



This is probably the #1 reason why I could care less about the ranking system.  When I'm told to test, I'll test.  I'm more interested in learning and gaining a deeper understanding of what I already know, and making it better.  That, to me, is 10 times more valuable than stressing over when I might get a new belt.  




> See my response to Photonguy on this.



Ok.


----------



## lklawson

MJS said:


> Ok, so using this logic, it would be possible for someone in the martial arts, to take a belt test every month, correct?  If the student did all of the material correctly, they could realistically take and pass each test, therefore, getting their black belt in a years time, no?


Sure.  Martial arts aren't "special."  They're just physical skills.  If the student can demonstrate the physical skills, what is the point of withholding the official recognition that he has those physical skills.




> If that is in fact true, do you feel that we should/could also apply that to education?  Rather than 12yrs of school, you get study your butt off, test and do it faster than 12yrs?  If this is/was possible, what're your thoughts on it?


Students skip grades all the time.  I went to U. with a 16 year old kid because he was good enough to learn all the material and "test out" of 2 or 3 grades.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

MJS said:


> Ok, so using this logic, it would be possible for someone in the martial arts, to take a belt test every month, correct?


They already do in some schools.



MJS said:


> If the student did all of the material correctly, they could realistically take and pass each test, therefore, getting their black belt in a years time, no?


Yes.  Which is the norm in Korea as I understand it.  

But lets take a look at how that might work with a more western model with a belt serving as your certificate.
I'll use hapkido for this example.  

As a prerequisite for testing for black belt, you must be certifed the following categories:


Hand techniques (get a white belt)
kicking (get a yellow belt)
grappling (get a green belt)
ground fighting (get a blue belt)


knife defense (get a red belt)

With those prerequisites met, a student could then test for a collective certification and receive her black belt.  Which would be a prerequisite for learning the following:


stick/handheld object defense
gun defense
defense with a cane
defense with a belt
sword
staff

You could also solve the time in grade dilema by requireing minimum number of study hours with each certification.



MJS said:


> If that is in fact true, do you feel that we should/could also apply that to education?  Rather than 12yrs of school, you get study your butt off, test and do it faster than 12yrs?  If this is/was possible, what're your thoughts on it?


That would assume that all of the material you would need is in the textbook you're supplied, that one's grade is only dependent upon tests, and that there is no minimum study hours required. 



MJS said:


> This is probably the #1 reason why I could care less about the ranking system.


No argument there.  So long as a school or art is internally consistent in how it implements the system, I do not care about it either.



MJS said:


> When I'm told to test, I'll test.  I'm more interested in learning and gaining a deeper understanding of what I already know, and making it better.  That, to me, is 10 times more valuable than stressing over when I might get a new belt.


  Stressing over when you'll get a belt reflects a lack of maturity.  Which is one of the reasons for aiming arts at children and proliferation of belts.  Kids (I include college age in this) stress over things like merit badges, ribbons, and trophies.  Kids also are inherently aware of who has what color and where they are in the pecking order and who is in competition with whom.  Thus they are more anxious to get to that next belt.

Once people hit their late twenties to early thirties, they usually (though by no means always) tend to be less concerned with such things and train simply to train and to improve themselves and deepen their knowledge.  People who have business goals that they perceive as being dependent upon rank, however, can be just as belt driven as the eight year olds.



MJS said:


> Ok.


I hope that I didn't come across as being short with you in my reply.  I was running out of time before an engagement and realized that it was on the previous page.


----------



## MJS

lklawson said:


> Sure.  Martial arts aren't "special."  They're just physical skills.  If the student can demonstrate the physical skills, what is the point of withholding the official recognition that he has those physical skills.



Perhaps I should have included understanding it as well.  I've seen lots of people demo the material, but when it came to actually applying it under some pressure, most failed.  




> Students skip grades all the time.  I went to U. with a 16 year old kid because he was good enough to learn all the material and "test out" of 2 or 3 grades.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



I have no doubt that there are many above average people.  However, I'd be willing to bet that the majority would not fall into that category.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

lklawson said:


> Honestly, why not?  As I wrote earlier, both are just physical skills.  Heck, there are some "technical training" courses where you spend class and "hands on" time learning the material at exactly the same rate and time as everyone else in the class, then at the end you take the test whether or not you or the instructor think your "ready."  There's a local welding school that uses this methodology, ims.
> 
> It's just as valid.
> 
> The point of the "test" is to ensure that the person can demonstrate working skills to the level of expectation of the test.  The point of the "certification" is merely to prove that a person passed the test, and therefore is tangible proof that the person demonstrated the minimum skill level required without having to "prove" it over and over again for each potential client/employer/student who wants to benefit from the certificate holder's skills.  The point of the class is to impart those minimum level of skills and prepare the student for the test.
> 
> Once we boil it down to these essentials, it is clear that there are many methods which will achieve them and the three most common are:
> 
> Student decides when he wants to test
> Teacher decides when the student will test
> Students test after a predetermined period regardless of the student or teacher's opinion on student readiness
> 
> Obviously, there are hybrids of each, but those are the basics and they've all been used to pass on and certify physical skills in students.
> 
> Martial Arts is just a physical skill.  It's not somehow special and different from other physical skills like welding or carpentry because it's "martial arts."
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


Firstly, I don't consider it less valid.  

Secondly, being honest, it probably has to do with what I am personally used to.  When you get down to it, that's what most all of the rank and testing debates boil down to: arguing that what 'I'm used to is better than what you're used to.'  Then, 'Oh, you do it the same way, well, what we're used to is better than what he or she is used to.'  When in reality, obvious abuses not withstanding, it really is a matter of preferences. 

Personally, I prefer the model where the instructor is working with the student and simply teaching them more advanced material as they show proficiency in previous material, no test required.  If I weren't teaching an established Japanese art, I wouldn't even use the kyu/dan system and would use ranks more for administrative purposes.  

I rather like the scholar/free-scholar structure, wherein a scholar is simply learning the skills and a free scholar is able to leave and learn from other masters, with provost and master being titles that only apply to studio owners and advanced teachers.  Simple and descriptive.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

MJS said:


> Perhaps I should have included understanding it as well.  I've seen lots of people demo the material, but when it came to actually applying it under some pressure, most failed.


I agree.  There is no reason that this couldn't be a requirment for certification.


----------



## MJS

Daniel Sullivan said:


> They already do in some schools.



I assume these are quality schools, not mcdojos?




> Yes.  Which is the norm in Korea as I understand it.
> 
> But lets take a look at how that might work with a more western model with a belt serving as your certificate.
> I'll use hapkido for this example.
> 
> As a prerequisite for testing for black belt, you must be certifed the following categories:
> 
> 
> Hand techniques (get a white belt)
> kicking (get a yellow belt)
> grappling (get a green belt)
> ground fighting (get a blue belt)
> 
> 
> knife defense (get a red belt)
> 
> With those prerequisites met, a student could then test for a collective certification and receive her black belt.  Which would be a prerequisite for learning the following:
> 
> 
> stick/handheld object defense
> gun defense
> defense with a cane
> defense with a belt
> sword
> staff
> 
> You could also solve the time in grade dilema by requireing minimum number of study hours with each certification.



Of course, it's probably safe to assume that in some cases, the students tend to literally eat, breath, sleep,training a heck of a lot more in certain countries, compared to others.  




> That would assume that all of the material you would need is in the textbook you're supplied, that one's grade is only dependent upon tests, and that there is no minimum study hours required.



Personally, I think hours spent in the dojo is key.  You spend X number of hours depending on the belt level.  




> No argument there.  So long as a school or art is internally consistent in how it implements the system, I do not care about it either.



Ok. 




> Stressing over when you'll get a belt reflects a lack of maturity.  Which is one of the reasons for aiming arts at children and proliferation of belts.  Kids (I include college age in this) stress over things like merit badges, ribbons, and trophies.  Kids also are inherently aware of who has what color and where they are in the pecking order and who is in competition with whom.  Thus they are more anxious to get to that next belt.
> 
> Once people hit their late twenties to early thirties, they usually (though by no means always) tend to be less concerned with such things and train simply to train and to improve themselves and deepen their knowledge.  People who have business goals that they perceive as being dependent upon rank, however, can be just as belt driven as the eight year olds.



Agreed, and this is probably the main reason why I'm not fond of kids in the arts, unless the program is structured right.  Meaning, don't run the kids program like a mcdojo. 




> I hope that I didn't come across as being short with you in my reply.  I was running out of time before an engagement and realized that it was on the previous page.



Nope, didn't think that at all.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

MJS said:


> I assume these are quality schools, not mcdojos?


Most of the schools that I hear about where this is done are McDojos.  I have seen it in schools first hand, but I would not call any of them quality at this point in time.  One school is one that had been a quality school at one time, but no longer was.  They weren't doing it when the school's reputation was better.


----------



## lklawson

MJS said:


> Perhaps I should have included understanding it as well.  I've seen lots of people demo the material, but when it came to actually applying it under some pressure, most failed.


Isn't one of the points of the test is to force the student to prove they "understand" the physical skill and to be able to "apply it under some pressure?"




> I have no doubt that there are many above average people.  However, I'd be willing to bet that the majority would not fall into that category.


I'm not trying to be insulting, but, um... so?  So what if only the "above average" or unusual person could go in and nail one test right after another until they hit BB (or whatever arbitrary mark we set)?  Maybe he's an experienced Taekwondo stylist and is "testing out" in Tae Kwon Do (see what I did there?  )?  Maybe he's yudansha in Aikikai and is trying to test out in USJA's Aikido track (which I think, technically, has a minimum time in grade requirement, but you get the idea).

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## lklawson

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Firstly, I don't consider it less valid.


Sorry.  I didn't mean to imply otherwise.



> Secondly, being honest, it probably has to do with what I am personally used to.  When you get down to it, that's what most all of the rank and testing debates boil down to: arguing that what 'I'm used to is better than what you're used to.'  Then, 'Oh, you do it the same way, well, what we're used to is better than what he or she is used to.'  When in reality, obvious abuses not withstanding, it really is a matter of preferences.


I suspect you're right.



> Personally, I prefer the model where the instructor is working with the student and simply teaching them more advanced material as they show proficiency in previous material, no test required.  If I weren't teaching an established Japanese art, I wouldn't even use the kyu/dan system and would use ranks more for administrative purposes.


When I teach Judo, I use the USJA requirements because I'm part of their organization.  When I teach Bowie Knife, I use a small system of nothing, Bronze, Silver, Gold that I've developed, for various reasons.  When I teach other WMA, like Classic Pugilism, I don't use any "ranks" at all (mostly because, in boxing, the "rank" was always in the ring).



> I rather like the scholar/free-scholar structure, wherein a scholar is simply learning the skills and a free scholar is able to leave and learn from other masters, with provost and master being titles that only apply to studio owners and advanced teachers.  Simple and descriptive.


I agree.  Maybe sometimes a little too simple, but that's one reason why they used to have inter-school competitions and feuds and why instructors would frequently challenge each other: to establish a more nuanced "standing" among the general ranks.  

When you get right down to it, there's no perfect method.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## lklawson

MJS said:


> I assume these are quality schools, not mcdojos?


Kinda depends on your definition of McDojo.  As you can tell from the McDojo thread, some people's definition is more of a business model and concede that said business model can have both quality instruction (and well trained students) and still be a McDojo.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## MJS

lklawson said:


> Isn't one of the points of the test is to force the student to prove they "understand" the physical skill and to be able to "apply it under some pressure?"



Well, you'd think so, however, I've seen some that left me to wonder. 




> I'm not trying to be insulting, but, um... so?  So what if only the "above average" or unusual person could go in and nail one test right after another until they hit BB (or whatever arbitrary mark we set)?  Maybe he's an experienced Taekwondo stylist and is "testing out" in Tae Kwon Do (see what I did there?  )?  Maybe he's yudansha in Aikikai and is trying to test out in USJA's Aikido track (which I think, technically, has a minimum time in grade requirement, but you get the idea).
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



No offense taken.   My point was simply that some kids would be able to test every month and actually look sharp and worthy of the rank, while the majority probably would not, therefore, IMO, it would defeat the purpose of letting them test monthly.  Unless the person in question was a complete superstar, I'd run, not walk, away, while laughing, at someone who got to BB in a year, just as I would if I saw a 12yr old 2nd or 3rd degree BB.


----------



## lklawson

MJS said:


> No offense taken.   My point was simply that some kids would be able to test every month and actually look sharp and worthy of the rank, while the majority probably would not, therefore, IMO, it would defeat the purpose of letting them test monthly.  Unless the person in question was a complete superstar, I'd run, not walk, away, while laughing, at someone who got to BB in a year, just as I would if I saw a 12yr old 2nd or 3rd degree BB.


[channeling the ghost of Any Rand] So why penalize the few exceptional people for the mediocrity of the majority?

<ducking>

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Balrog

MJS said:


> No offense taken.   My point was simply that some kids would be able to test every month and actually look sharp and worthy of the rank, while the majority probably would not, therefore, IMO, it would defeat the purpose of letting them test monthly.  Unless the person in question was a complete superstar, I'd run, not walk, away, while laughing, at someone who got to BB in a year, just as I would if I saw a 12yr old 2nd or 3rd degree BB.


The only issue that I have with "accelerated" programs is that they ignore an important aspect of training.  Yes, it is possible to learn all the techniques and memorize the forms, etc. and perform them well enough to physically pass a Black Belt testing.  But there is the mental aspect of training as well, and IMNSHO, one year isn't anywhere near long enough to become a Black Belt.

It's like baking a cake.  If the recipe says mix up the ingredients, then put in an oven at 225 degrees for two hours, what would be the result of turning the heat up to 450 but only leaving the cake in for one hour?  You'll wind up with something that might look okay on the outside, but is still raw and unfinished on the inside.

My $0.02 worth.....


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Balrog said:


> The only issue that I have with "accelerated" programs is that they ignore an important aspect of training.  Yes, it is possible to learn all the techniques and memorize the forms, etc. and perform them well enough to physically pass a Black Belt testing.  But there is the mental aspect of training as well, and IMNSHO, one year isn't anywhere near long enough to become a Black Belt.



Of course, then you have to quantify what the mental aspect is.  Is is academic?  Is it an understanding of philosophy?  Is it loyalty?  Or something nebulous?


----------



## MJS

lklawson said:


> [channeling the ghost of Any Rand] So why penalize the few exceptional people for the mediocrity of the majority?
> 
> <ducking>
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



Despite being in the 'superstar' category, IMO, I'd still say that good judgement should be used.  Would you want to train under a 12yr old 5th dan?  By the time they're 20, they could potentially be a GM.  Personally, I'd rather coach them on finer, or advanced principles, rather than award them with a higher rank.  By doing that, you're still giving them something, still making them better, still giving them a goal, rather than make that goal, another stripe.  

One thing that always makes me wonder....if we look at an art like BJJ, where the average time for BB, is close to 10yrs, its rare, if ever at all, do we see all the complaining about rank, like we do in many other arts.  It would seem that the mentality there, is to get better and not worry about rank.  Too bad that can't be the same line of thinking with many other arts out there.


----------



## MJS

Balrog said:


> The only issue that I have with "accelerated" programs is that they ignore an important aspect of training.  Yes, it is possible to learn all the techniques and memorize the forms, etc. and perform them well enough to physically pass a Black Belt testing.  But there is the mental aspect of training as well, and IMNSHO, one year isn't anywhere near long enough to become a Black Belt.
> 
> It's like baking a cake.  If the recipe says mix up the ingredients, then put in an oven at 225 degrees for two hours, what would be the result of turning the heat up to 450 but only leaving the cake in for one hour?  You'll wind up with something that might look okay on the outside, but is still raw and unfinished on the inside.
> 
> My $0.02 worth.....



Well, that's how I feel.  IMHO, it seems nowadays, the higher value is on the color of the belt around your waist, rather than actually knowing, understanding and being able to perform the material, on someone, to a high standard.  Seeing a 12yr old 3rd dan, is akin to seeing someone with 6 7th or 8th dan black belts.  Might not seem odd to some, but I would certainly question that.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I read it.  I have to ask if your use of the phrase "ruined your life" is hyperbole or literal.
> 
> If a self imposed goal of this nature truly came close to ruining your life, then it isn't the missing of the goal within a time limit that nearly ruined your life but an unrealistic amount of weight being placed on that goal.
> 
> If your identity (speaking of the general you, not you specifically) is invested in something outside of yourself (and this is a fairly common thing), then it will be tied to the waxing and waning of whatever you've invested it in.
> 
> This goes back to a comment that I made much earlier in this thread about confusing external symbols and badges of achievement with achievement itself.  Acquiring proficiency in technique is an achievement.  A black belt is just a piece of cloth that represents that achievement.  Yes, it is nice, but you've still made the achievement whether or not you have the belt.
> 
> Thank you for sharing the story.  I appreciate that you did so.



    Well, knowing you made the achievement of black belt, at least knowing you made it by your sensei's standards does depend on obtaining the rank itself. As you said a black belt is just a piece of cloth and anybody can buy one for about $5-$10 but to obtain the actual rank of black belt and to obtain it by the standards set forth by a sensei that you put your faith in and put forth the time and effort to train under that sensei is something else. Looking back, I believe I certainly could've made the rank of black belt within my self imposed time limit of doing it before I turned 20 but the reason I didn't was because I didn't have the proper information. I didn't have the proper information because I didn't talk to my sensei about it. To reach any kind of goal, whether it be a black belt, an eagle badge in boyscouts, an A in a class, you name it, requires that you have the proper information of what's needed to reach that goal. To get a black belt you need the proper information of what your sensei requires to get it, and that includes information about whether or not you need to be told you can take the black belt test or if you can sign up for it at your own discretion. People talk about the importance of patience but the fact of the matter is all the patience in the world wont get you to your goal if you don't have the proper information and getting the proper information often involves talking to the proper person and asking them the proper stuff.

This other user, geezer, posted on this thread about how failure and losing and disappointment is a part of life and how learning to fail is just as important as learning to succeed. I must say geezer is right. Everybody fails from time to time, even the best of us. A good example of this would be the martial arts movie Best of the Best part 2. Early in the movie there is a scene where this boy fails his black belt test because he isn't able to break a cinder block. One of the things that must be done to get a black belt at the dojo where he goes is that you have to break a cinder block and he wasn't able to do it. All in all, he handled his failure quite well and while he was disappointed he said he would just have to work harder so that he could pass the next time. So that would be a good example of how failure is a part of life, but the thing is this, at least the boy knew why he failed and he knew what he needed to work on so that hopefully he could pass the next time around. With the situation I was in I didn't even know why I was failing and yes, I consider not testing in the first place to be failing. 

The same thing can be said about an A in a class. You can say an A is just a mark on a piece of paper but it does represent achievement and it shows that you've, at least by the standards of a certain teacher or school, have learned the material to a certain level of proficiency. You could say a college diploma is just a fancy looking piece of paper that says you graduated and now have a degree, but the fact of the matter is that the diploma is a credential that opens more doors for you and qualifies you for more job opportunities. 

So, as I said, its important to know what you need to do to reach your goal and I am not just talking about a black piece of cloth or a big letter A on a test paper or a fancy looking leather bound certificate that says you've got a degree, I am talking about the achievements that those things represent. From my own experience, I can tell you that in the martial arts that black belt is just the beginning. After you make black belt you then want to take your training and your martial arts to the next level, at least that's how it was with me. I am actually training harder and putting more into the martial arts after making black belt than before. When you do make black belt, at your dojo, they will probably expect more out of you, but aside from that you expect more out of yourself. So, making black belt, just like getting an A in a class or getting a college degree, does open more doors. But, to achieve that goal you've got to know what you need to do to get it, and that means asking about it, from the head sensei himself.


----------



## K-man

Balrog said:


> The only issue that I have with "accelerated" programs is that they ignore an important aspect of training.  Yes, it is possible to learn all the techniques and memorize the forms, etc. and perform them well enough to physically pass a Black Belt testing.  But there is the mental aspect of training as well, and IMNSHO, one year isn't anywhere near long enough to become a Black Belt.
> 
> It's like baking a cake.  If the recipe says mix up the ingredients, then put in an oven at 225 degrees for two hours, what would be the result of turning the heat up to 450 but only leaving the cake in for one hour?  You'll wind up with something that might look okay on the outside, but is still raw and unfinished on the inside.
> 
> My $0.02 worth.....


But what if someone went from one style to another that was similar but unrelated? For example someone with black belts and years of training in karate and aikido switching to Hapkido. That person would be cooked through on the inside and requiring just a little icing on the outside.
:asian:


----------



## jks9199

Photonguy, you've talked in circles around this, and I'm just confused.  What exactly led to your failure to obtain your black belt, and how did it so greatly impact your life?  I'm at a loss to see the connection, or what it has to do with talking to the right people or being given the right information.  For several years, I was repeatedly asked by various people within my art when I was testing for black belt.  My answer was always the same; when my teacher said I would.


----------



## PhotonGuy

jks9199 said:


> Photonguy, you've talked in circles around this, and I'm just confused.  What exactly led to your failure to obtain your black belt, and how did it so greatly impact your life?  I'm at a loss to see the connection, or what it has to do with talking to the right people or being given the right information.  For several years, I was repeatedly asked by various people within my art when I was testing for black belt.  My answer was always the same; when my teacher said I would.



    Like I said, part of the goal of obtaining black belt was to do it in a certain time period, before I turned 20. The reason I didn't obtain black belt before I turned 20 was because I erroneously thought that I had to wait for my sensei to tell me I could test when in fact, I could've signed up for it at my own discretion. So I had the wrong information. My mistake was that I didn't talk to my sensei about the black belt test, I didn't think to ask my sensei if I had to wait for him to tell me I could take the black belt test or if I could sign up for it on my own. If your teacher has to tell students when they will test for their black belt before they can test for it than that is how your teacher runs his dojo, it is not how my teacher runs his.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

I think that the major intellectual hurdle that people face in this is how it nearly ruined your life.  Do you mean literally or are you employing hyperbole?


----------



## MJS

PhotonGuy said:


> Like I said, part of the goal of obtaining black belt was to do it in a certain time period, before I turned 20. The reason I didn't obtain black belt before I turned 20 was because I erroneously thought that I had to wait for my sensei to tell me I could test when in fact, I could've signed up for it at my own discretion. So I had the wrong information. My mistake was that I didn't talk to my sensei about the black belt test, I didn't think to ask my sensei if I had to wait for him to tell me I could take the black belt test or if I could sign up for it on my own. If your teacher has to tell students when they will test for their black belt before they can test for it than that is how your teacher runs his dojo, it is not how my teacher runs his.



I'm still confused as to what the big deal is.  If you had signed up and failed, you still might not have received the belt by the time you were hoping, so again, what's the big deal??



Daniel Sullivan said:


> I think that the major intellectual hurdle that people face in this is how it nearly ruined your life.  Do you mean literally or are you employing hyperbole?



Hopefully it's the latter.


----------



## PhotonGuy

MJS said:


> I'm still confused as to what the big deal is.  If you had signed up and failed, you still might not have received the belt by the time you were hoping, so again, what's the big deal??



If I failed I would've known why. At my dojo when you fail a belt test they tell you why you failed. So therefore I would know what I needed to work on and so if I worked hard enough I would be able to pass the next time around. So I should've been able to do it within my time limit since I had close to two years to go from high level brown to black.


----------



## jks9199

PhotonGuy said:


> Like I said, part of the goal of obtaining black belt was to do it in a certain time period, before I turned 20. The reason I didn't obtain black belt before I turned 20 was because I erroneously thought that I had to wait for my sensei to tell me I could test when in fact, I could've signed up for it at my own discretion. So I had the wrong information. My mistake was that I didn't talk to my sensei about the black belt test, I didn't think to ask my sensei if I had to wait for him to tell me I could take the black belt test or if I could sign up for it on my own. If your teacher has to tell students when they will test for their black belt before they can test for it than that is how your teacher runs his dojo, it is not how my teacher runs his.



OK -- I get how you didn't test when you wanted to.  But why did it have such a negative impact on your life?  Since you failed to meet one goal, did you give up on everything for years and years?  If so -- you need(ed?) therapy, not a black belt.  Tell us more about why it had such a powerful impact on your life; I think everyone can sense your bitterness about it.


----------



## David Lader

At this point, perhaps we have enough information to know that he is, in fact, employing hyperbole...
There is, in the story, no mention at all of a life in actual ruins... He seems to have recovered from his very significant frustration and disappointment just fine...
He is also very young and, apparently, plenty resilient.  I am optimistic that he'll be ok.  
Peace to him and all of us...


----------



## MJS

PhotonGuy said:


> If I failed I would've known why. At my dojo when you fail a belt test they tell you why you failed. So therefore I would know what I needed to work on and so if I worked hard enough I would be able to pass the next time around. So I should've been able to do it within my time limit since I had close to two years to go from high level brown to black.



Ok, so the reason why you didn't get to test, is because you thought someone would tell you, when in reality, you could've just signed up, right?  In the majority of dojos that I know of, the teacher tells the student when they're ready, but anyways...my point was, even if you took the test and failed, and new the reason why, it's very possible that you still wouldn't have been able to test within this timeframe that you so desperately set for yourself.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

David Lader said:


> At this point, perhaps we have enough information to know that he is, in fact, employing hyperbole...
> There is, in the story, no mention at all of a life in actual ruins... He seems to have recovered from his very significant frustration and disappointment just fine...
> He is also very young and, apparently, plenty resilient.  I am optimistic that he'll be ok.
> Peace to him and all of us...


That is my impression.


----------



## PhotonGuy

David Lader said:


> At this point, perhaps we have enough information to know that he is, in fact, employing hyperbole...
> There is, in the story, no mention at all of a life in actual ruins... He seems to have recovered from his very significant frustration and disappointment just fine...
> He is also very young and, apparently, plenty resilient.  I am optimistic that he'll be ok.
> Peace to him and all of us...



Im not quite as young as you might think.


----------



## PhotonGuy

I was exaggerating a bit, perhaps, when I said it ruined my life about not making black belt before I turned 20. I didn't become an alcoholic or a drug addict or anything of that nature. It really did, however, hurt my self esteem and self confidence and there were certain situations I could've dealt with much better if I had made black belt before I turned 20. I did have plans in life and those plans depended on me getting a black belt before I turned 20 or at least somewhere in that time frame. Also, getting a black belt before I turned 20 was a really big deal for me because it was something I wanted to do when I was a teenager. There were certain things that I had the goal of doing while I was still a teenager and getting a black belt was one of them. To this day, had I made black belt before I turned 20 things would probably be different for me now.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

PhotonGuy said:


> I was exaggerating a bit, perhaps, when I said it ruined my life about not making black belt before I turned 20. I didn't become an alcoholic or a drug addict or anything of that nature. It really did, however, hurt my self esteem and self confidence


I can see that.


PhotonGuy said:


> and there were certain situations I could've dealt with much better if I had made black belt before I turned 20.


Like what?  I'm not being flippant; I'm genuinely curious.



PhotonGuy said:


> I did have plans in life and those plans depended on me getting a black belt before I turned 20 or at least somewhere in that time frame.


What kind of plans required a black belt at this time?  Again, I'm not being sarcastic or flippant.  



PhotonGuy said:


> Also, getting a black belt before I turned 20 was a really big deal for me because it was something I wanted to do when I was a teenager. There were certain things that I had the goal of doing while I was still a teenager and getting a black belt was one of them.


I can see that.  



PhotonGuy said:


> To this day, had I made black belt before I turned 20 things would probably be different for me now.


You should watch the movie, Mr. Destiny.  Jim Belushi agonizes over how different his life would have been if he'd hit a home run in the championship game.  An encounter with Michael Caine causes his speculation to take an interesting turn.  It was an interesting movie.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I can see that.
> 
> Like what?  I'm not being flippant; I'm genuinely curious.
> 
> 
> What kind of plans required a black belt at this time?  Again, I'm not being sarcastic or flippant.
> 
> 
> I can see that.
> 
> 
> You should watch the movie, Mr. Destiny.  Jim Belushi agonizes over how different his life would have been if he'd hit a home run in the championship game.  An encounter with Michael Caine causes his speculation to take an interesting turn.  It was an interesting movie.



Yes I did see Mr. Destiny. It was a good movie but what I thought was one of the flaws was that if he had hit the home run his memories would've been different. He would've had no memory of meeting the girl that he was married to in the beginning of the movie because they would've never met. His memories would be of him marrying the CEO's daughter and whatnot since that's what happened in the alternate timeline. So that was how I think the movie was flawed. I think a better representation of time travel and changing your past would be the Butterfly Effect movies.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Furthermore, as I posted before, I saw the movie Best of the Best part 2. I would assume at least some of the people on this board have seen it since its a martial arts movie. Early in the movie there is this scene where a boy fails his black belt test because he is not able to break a cinder block which is one of the things you have to do to get a black belt at the dojo he goes to. While he did fail, at least he knew why he failed. He knew what he needed to work on so he could hopefully pass the next time around.

Not making black belt is one thing, not knowing why you aren't making black belt is something else.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

PhotonGuy said:


> Yes I did see Mr. Destiny. It was a good movie but what I thought was one of the flaws was that if he had hit the home run his memories would've been different. He would've had no memory of meeting the girl that he was married to in the beginning of the movie because they would've never met. His memories would be of him marrying the CEO's daughter and whatnot since that's what happened in the alternate timeline. So that was how I think the movie was flawed. I think a better representation of time travel and changing your past would be the Butterfly Effect movies.


It's been a couple of decades since I've seen the movie, and I'm sure that it has flaws.  It was pertinent because the main character dwelt on what might have been if he had only hit that ball, and truly believed that if he had, it would have made his life better.  Which is what you have done with regards to not meeting that MA goal.  

But that more importantly, what situations would having earned a black belt by twenty helped you to deal with more effectively? 

And what life plans were dependent upon earning a black belt specifically by the age of twenty (as opposed to simply earning one)?


----------



## jks9199

PhotonGuy said:


> I was exaggerating a bit, perhaps, when I said it ruined my life about not making black belt before I turned 20. I didn't become an alcoholic or a drug addict or anything of that nature. It really did, however, hurt my self esteem and self confidence and there were certain situations I could've dealt with much better if I had made black belt before I turned 20. I did have plans in life and those plans depended on me getting a black belt before I turned 20 or at least somewhere in that time frame. Also, getting a black belt before I turned 20 was a really big deal for me because it was something I wanted to do when I was a teenager. There were certain things that I had the goal of doing while I was still a teenager and getting a black belt was one of them. To this day, had I made black belt before I turned 20 things would probably be different for me now.



Sorry for being a little late in responding; work interfered in staying current on every post.  

I started college straight out of high school, and ended up financially unable to return.  Had I been able to return, and graduated that school, my career would likely have been very different.  I considered enlisting, and had the recruiter had some of the information that they commonly do today, I probably would have signed up.  Again, my life and career would have been quite different.  I can continue down a list, had I taken that assignment or job, not taken this one...  

But here's the thing.  I look at who I am today, at the life and family I have, and it's the sum total of all the choices, good and bad, made to get here.  I'm reasonably happy with it -- so I'm not going to spend my life looking back and saying I wish...  Things happened, I rolled with them, made the best choice I could at the time.  And as life goes on, it continues.  I've probably made choices in the last month that I might think differently of in 10 years.  But they've been the best I choice I could make at the time.

Regarding not knowing why...  That's life.  Why didn't I qualify for financial aid?  Did I not play the game right, or were my parents unfairly expected to pay more?  Don't know.  Don't care.  IT'S ONLY MINIMALLY RELEVANT to what's happened.  If you know why, and can fix it -- then fix it.  Otherwise, get on with life.  I know this sounds blunt, but really, that's what it amounts to.  And that's the "message" of *Mr. Destiny*, *It's a Wonderful Life*, and lots of similarly themed movies and stories.  If you spend your life looking back at things that never happened or didn't happen the way you wanted -- you'll miss what's right in front of you.  If having a black belt is so important to you, and you haven't done so yet -- go back and earn one now.  Robert Asprin's character Skeeve the Magnificent said something along the lines of "If you spend too much time looking at what happened in the past, you'll trip over what's happening now." in one of the Myth Adventures books.


----------



## PhotonGuy

As for my plans that I had in life that involved getting a black belt before I turned 20 I will get into that later but for now I would like to say this. This thread started out in the wrong direction. From the beginning this thread was going into a debate over whether a sensei should tell a student when they test for rank or if the students should decide for themselves to sign up for belt tests. The fact of the matter is every sensei has their own system for rank advancement and as to which system works the best or which one is the proper one to use is a matter of opinion. I didn't intend this thread to be a debate on how rank advancement should work but rather that, whatever system a sensei uses a student should know how the system works and they should know what they need to do to get to the next rank. The same thing is true with just about any other goal in life. When you start college and work on getting a degree, you get a program that tells you what you need to do to get the degree, it tells you the courses you must take, the GPA you must maintain, how many credits you need, ect. That is just one example of many when it comes to knowing what you need to do to reach a goal. The martial arts is no different.

Now, has anybody seen the movie Best of the Best 2?


----------



## David Lader

Got it...Hook up with a sensei who agrees with you...many don't, and those schools won't work for you...
Most teachers _will_ agree with you and make your ranking requirements perfectly clear... You, and most, will do well in that sort of environment.
If you don't like the environment, find another... Ultimately, we must take responsibility for ourselves and move on...blaming others or holding on to resentments is useless...
It was the "ruined my life" thing that may have thrown everyone off...
Also, don't be too hard on yourself - you were a kid when this all originally went down... Chalk it up to another life lesson - something to learn from...
Good luck.


----------



## Dirty Dog

PhotonGuy said:


> As for my plans that I had in life that involved getting a black belt before I turned 20 I will get into that later but for now I would like to say this. This thread started out in the wrong direction. From the beginning this thread was going into a debate over whether a sensei should tell a student when they test for rank or if the students should decide for themselves to sign up for belt tests. The fact of the matter is every sensei has their own system for rank advancement and as to which system works the best or which one is the proper one to use is a matter of opinion. I didn't intend this thread to be a debate on how rank advancement should work but rather that, whatever system a sensei uses a student should know how the system works and they should know what they need to do to get to the next rank. The same thing is true with just about any other goal in life. When you start college and work on getting a degree, you get a program that tells you what you need to do to get the degree, it tells you the courses you must take, the GPA you must maintain, how many credits you need, ect. That is just one example of many when it comes to knowing what you need to do to reach a goal. The martial arts is no different.
> 
> Now, has anybody seen the movie Best of the Best 2?



Actually, I think this is not correct. What started all this was two ideas.

1 - Students sign up for tests when THEY think they're ready, not when the instructor does,
and
2 - Not getting a belt by some arbitrary time you picked could somehow "ruin [your] life".

Both concepts are pretty widely viewed as ranging from silly to ludicrous. I've not seen anything here to change those opinions.

However,
1 - Students who think they're ready should talk to their instructor and instructors with students who are ready should talk to their students.
and
2 - Not making a random arbitrary goal can be disappointing.

Are concepts that few will disagree with.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

PhotonGuy said:


> As for my plans that I had in life that involved getting a black belt before I turned 20 I will get into that later but for now I would like to say this. This thread started out in the wrong direction. From the beginning this thread was going into a debate over whether a sensei should tell a student when they test for rank or if the students should decide for themselves to sign up for belt tests. The fact of the matter is every sensei has their own system for rank advancement and as to which system works the best or which one is the proper one to use is a matter of opinion. I didn't intend this thread to be a debate on how rank advancement should work but rather that, whatever system a sensei uses a student should know how the system works and they should know what they need to do to get to the next rank. The same thing is true with just about any other goal in life. When you start college and work on getting a degree, you get a program that tells you what you need to do to get the degree, it tells you the courses you must take, the GPA you must maintain, how many credits you need, ect. That is just one example of many when it comes to knowing what you need to do to reach a goal. The martial arts is no different.
> 
> Now, has anybody seen the movie Best of the Best 2?


Threads that go for eighteen pages tend to broaden in scope.  People respond to what others post.  Sometimes, this results in illuminating discussion, sometimes not, but it does happen.

As for discussing life plans and such, it's part of the conversation, not a debate. 

No, I haven't seen any of the Best of the Best sequels, though I do own the original.


----------



## Balrog

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Of course, then you have to quantify what the mental aspect is.  Is is academic?  Is it an understanding of philosophy?  Is it loyalty?  Or something nebulous?



Yes.  :lol:

Joking aside, it's hard to explain.  The best that I can come up with is an internalization of all the life skills that are taught in conjunction with martial arts training.  There is a mental growth, a maturity so to speak, that only comes from time and training.  And it winds up being the difference between someone who has earned a Black Belt and someone who has become a Black Belt.


----------



## Balrog

K-man said:


> But what if someone went from one style to another that was similar but unrelated? For example someone with black belts and years of training in karate and aikido switching to Hapkido. That person would be cooked through on the inside and requiring just a little icing on the outside.
> :asian:


That is correct.  I should have been clearer and said that I was referring to new students who have no prior training that go into accelerated programs.

I get transfers into my school all the time from different styles.  They do accelerate through the colored belt curriculum because they have already "paid their dues" (or "been baked" to use the previous analogy) elsewhere.  Once they reach a level in our style that is equivalent to where they were in their previous style, they then slow down to a normal pace and proceed onward from there.


----------



## PhotonGuy

David Lader said:


> Got it...Hook up with a sensei who agrees with you...many don't, and those schools won't work for you...
> Most teachers _will_ agree with you and make your ranking requirements perfectly clear... You, and most, will do well in that sort of environment.
> If you don't like the environment, find another... Ultimately, we must take responsibility for ourselves and move on...blaming others or holding on to resentments is useless...
> It was the "ruined my life" thing that may have thrown everyone off...
> Also, don't be too hard on yourself - you were a kid when this all originally went down... Chalk it up to another life lesson - something to learn from...
> Good luck.



   Well do you agree with me? About making ranking requirements clear? Personally I think they should be made clear and if they're not clear to a student, than the student should talk to the sensei about it. After all, thats how it is with most other things. With college degrees, the requirement to get a degree is made very clear with the program you get when you declare a major. When a student has a test coming up in class, a smart student who wants to do well will talk to the teacher and ask what they need to study to get a good grade on the test. While the teacher probably wont tell them exactly what will be on the test, the teacher will at least tell the student all the material they need to study and so forth.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Balrog said:


> Yes.  :lol:
> 
> Joking aside, it's hard to explain.  The best that I can come up with is an internalization of all the life skills that are taught in conjunction with martial arts training.  There is a mental growth, a maturity so to speak, that only comes from time and training.  And it winds up being the difference between someone who has earned a Black Belt and someone who has become a Black Belt.


Incidentally, I wasn't disagreeing with you.  

However, when people talk about the non physical aspects of an art, I find that there is seldom a lot of agreement as to what those consist of, even within the same art and sometimes the same organization.  

I do like the way that you contrast earning with being.  Though I've made my view on belts fairly clear, the concept of being a black belt, or more specifically, the kind of person that a black belt represents is worthy.

Personally, I don't feel that I 'became' until long after I had my first black belt.


----------



## PhotonGuy

MJS said:


> Ok, so the reason why you didn't get to test, is because you thought someone would tell you, when in reality, you could've just signed up, right?  In the majority of dojos that I know of, the teacher tells the student when they're ready, but anyways...my point was, even if you took the test and failed, and new the reason why, it's very possible that you still wouldn't have been able to test within this timeframe that you so desperately set for yourself.



     Yes but at least I would've known why, and that would've brought me some peace. Its much better to fail and know why than to fail and not know why.


----------



## MJS

PhotonGuy said:


> Yes but at least I would've known why, and that would've brought me some peace. Its much better to fail and know why than to fail and not know why.



But whether you sign up in advance or the teacher tells you, bottom line...you can still fail, and you'll still know the reason why.  I'm not sure I'm following you as to why you think that you'd be in the dark about why you didn't pass.


----------



## ballen0351

PhotonGuy said:


> Yes but at least I would've known why, and that would've brought me some peace. Its much better to fail and know why than to fail and not know why.



So.....why not ask?  Your teacher works for you.  You pay him so if you have a problem or concern knock on the door and ask.


----------



## Dirty Dog

PhotonGuy said:


> Yes but at least I would've known why, and that would've brought me some peace. Its much better to fail and know why than to fail and not know why.



It occurs to me that perhaps you need to consider that the problem is closer to home...


----------



## PhotonGuy

MJS said:


> But whether you sign up in advance or the teacher tells you, bottom line...you can still fail, and you'll still know the reason why.  I'm not sure I'm following you as to why you think that you'd be in the dark about why you didn't pass.



What don't you understand?


----------



## PhotonGuy

ballen0351 said:


> So.....why not ask?  Your teacher works for you.  You pay him so if you have a problem or concern knock on the door and ask.



Yes you're absolutely right. I should've asked and the fact of the matter was that I didn't and that was my fault. This is one of the points I've been trying to make all along, that students need to ask their teachers about what they need to do to advance in whatever field of study the teacher is teaching, and the martial arts are no exception.


----------



## ballen0351

PhotonGuy said:


> Yes you're absolutely right. I should've asked and the fact of the matter was that I didn't and that was my fault. This is one of the points I've been trying to make all along, that students need to ask their teachers about what they need to do to advance in whatever field of study the teacher is teaching, and the martial arts are no exception.



Or you can just train and be happy and not worry about a belt or promotion.  If all you care about is a black belt I'll mail you 3 tomorrow.


----------



## ballen0351

Your goal was black belt by 20.  OK 1st was that a realistic goal?  When did you start training?  How often did you train and how much time did you miss?  Did you tell your teacher about your goal?  Did you ask him if he thought it was realistic?  Did you ask him for a plan to reach your goal?


----------



## lklawson

ballen0351 said:


> Or you can just train and be happy and not worry about a belt or promotion.  If all you care about is a black belt I'll mail you 3 tomorrow.


Very few people expend the money and effort of going to University but not caring about getting that sheepskin at the end of it.  Of course they could simply go online and find a Diploma Mill.  Some do that.  But it's not the Diploma, per se, it's what the Diploma recognizes about the student.


----------



## ballen0351

lklawson said:


> Very few people expend the money and effort of going to University but not caring about getting that sheepskin at the end of it.  Of course they could simply go online and find a Diploma Mill.  Some do that.  But it's not the Diploma, per se, it's what the Diploma recognizes about the student.



MA training is hardly college.  Its a hobby for a majority of people.  Nothing more no matter how much you want to believe your a human weapon.  BUT if you keep training and not worry about the rank well guess what the rank will come on its own in due time regardless


----------



## Dirty Dog

lklawson said:


> Very few people expend the money and effort of going to University but not caring about getting that sheepskin at the end of it.  Of course they could simply go online and find a Diploma Mill.  Some do that.  But it's not the Diploma, per se, it's what the Diploma recognizes about the student.



Most people go to University with the (occasionally misguided...) intent of graduating with a degree that will aid them in their quest to Put Food On The Table and occasionally Go On A Vacation.

Having the same expectations of earning a 1st degree black belt is hardly reasonable...


----------



## PhotonGuy

ballen0351 said:


> Or you can just train and be happy and not worry about a belt or promotion.  If all you care about is a black belt I'll mail you 3 tomorrow.



Well in that case, why go to school and care about getting an A? Just study and be happy, who needs grades anyway.


----------



## PhotonGuy

ballen0351 said:


> Your goal was black belt by 20.  OK 1st was that a realistic goal?  When did you start training?  How often did you train and how much time did you miss?  Did you tell your teacher about your goal?  Did you ask him if he thought it was realistic?  Did you ask him for a plan to reach your goal?



I started at the age of 12 and I was a high level brown belt, the rank right before black belt, shortly after I turned 18. So my goal was very realistic, I had almost 2 years to go that one extra rank.


----------



## PhotonGuy

ballen0351 said:


> MA training is hardly college.  Its a hobby for a majority of people.  Nothing more no matter how much you want to believe your a human weapon.  BUT if you keep training and not worry about the rank well guess what the rank will come on its own in due time regardless



Its a hobby for some people, and than there's those who want to make a career out of it.


----------



## PhotonGuy

lklawson said:


> Very few people expend the money and effort of going to University but not caring about getting that sheepskin at the end of it.  Of course they could simply go online and find a Diploma Mill.  Some do that.  But it's not the Diploma, per se, it's what the Diploma recognizes about the student.



Amen. Same thing with the black belt. Its not the black belt per se but what the black belt represents about the martial artist.


----------



## jks9199

Dirty Dog said:


> Most people go to University with the (occasionally misguided...) intent of graduating with a degree that will aid them in their quest to Put Food On The Table and occasionally Go On A Vacation.
> 
> Having the same expectations of earning a 1st degree black belt is hardly reasonable...



And the university spells out the requirements and process for getting that sheepskin.  But you still have to make the graduation application.

I get Photonguys point; his teachers should have made the process clear and available.  I'm a bit skeptical that it wasn't spelled out somewhere that an 18 to 20 year old might have missed... 

OK -- but I'm still lost on why this one thing was such an all-shadowing event.  Did it force him from a career path as a martial arts teacher?  Did he lose an inheritance or the like because he didn't get the black belt by 20?  His girl dump him?  I'm sorry, and I know I'm being a little facetious with this -- but I don't get why it's still such an issue for him.


----------



## ballen0351

PhotonGuy said:


> Well in that case, why go to school and care about getting an A? Just study and be happy, who needs grades anyway.



A belts not a grade.  I've seen pretty crappy black belts and amazing brown belts.  I think your holding the "black belt" as some magical life altering achievement.  It's just another steping stone.


----------



## ballen0351

PhotonGuy said:


> Its a hobby for some people, and than there's those who want to make a career out of it.



And a 20 yr old black belt shouldn't be worrying about making a living teaching martial arts.  They are still learning.


----------



## PhotonGuy

ballen0351 said:


> A belts not a grade.  I've seen pretty crappy black belts and amazing brown belts.  I think your holding the "black belt" as some magical life altering achievement.  It's just another steping stone.



You're right, it is another stepping stone, but its magical and life altering in the fact that once you make black belt, you take your training to a whole new level.


----------



## Blindside

PhotonGuy said:


> You're right, it is another stepping stone, but its magical and life altering in the fact that once you make black belt, you take your training to a whole new level.



Really?  What changed in your practice habits to get you to that "whole new level?"


----------



## ballen0351

Blindside said:


> Really?  What changed in your practice habits to get you to that "whole new level?"


The color of your belt I guess.  I dont even wear a belt half the time I practice.  I guess Im doing it wrong.


----------



## Blindside

Maybe if I was still in an art that used a belt system I could make it to that new level.


----------



## lklawson

ballen0351 said:


> MA training is hardly college.


You are misunderstanding the point.



> Its a hobby for a majority of people. Nothing more no matter how much you want to believe your a human weapon.


Of course it's a hobby.  When I train in Military Saber & Singlestick, it's for fun and because I think it makes my knife-work better (which is, also, mostly a hobby), not because I expect to get in a duel with Cavalry Sabers.



> BUT if you keep training and not worry about the rank well guess what the rank will come on its own in due time regardless


The point being missed is that writing, "if you just want a black belt, I can mail you three" is completely off the mark and, frankly, a bit condescending.  The goal of a "black belt" is not about the piece of fabric, it's about what the awarding of said fabric recognizes about the holder.  It's a tangible recognition of skill from a respected authority (the instructor).  It would be the same if, instead of belts, the instructor awarded lapel pins, shoulder or breast patches, different colored boxing gloves, or nothing more than an actual certificate.  It's the instructor, institution, or authorizing body standing up and saying to the world, "We certify that Joe Blow here has XYZ skills."

And, no, sometimes not worrying about rank and continuing to train *WON'T* make rank come on it's own.  It didn't in the PhotonGuy's case.  What did come (we assume) is more skill.  Yes, if you're dedicated, moderately talented, and have good instructors then, generally, skill will naturally grow.  But that's no guarantee of recognition of said skill.

Now, I know that some people will say, "who cares if anyone recognizes my skill?, as long as I've got it, that's what's important."  That sounds nice and all, but it ignores actual human psychology.  The human brain doesn't work that way.  Humans, particularly males, crave recognition.  It's often an important element of furthering the "ultimate goal" of attaining more skill.  Human Resource departments and good Managers the world over have figured this out.  They've found that giving out "Recognition of Achievement" awards, or even just a simple pat on the back and and 'attaboy', is a great way to help motivate employees.

Yes, it's true that some people "buy the belt" just so that they can boast or have people believe they have skill which they do not.  But, to be honest, they're actually a minority.  Most people in my experience actually want to learn the skills but they need to have it recognized too.  It's just a basic human need.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## lklawson

Dirty Dog said:


> Most people go to University with the (occasionally misguided...) intent of graduating with a degree that will aid them in their quest to Put Food On The Table and occasionally Go On A Vacation.
> 
> Having the same expectations of earning a 1st degree black belt is hardly reasonable...


You're also misunderstanding my point.  See what I wrote to ballen.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## lklawson

jks9199 said:


> And the university spells out the requirements and process for getting that sheepskin.  But you still have to make the graduation application.


Yes, I agree.



> I get Photonguys point; his teachers should have made the process clear and available.  I'm a bit skeptical that it wasn't spelled out somewhere that an 18 to 20 year old might have missed...


Yes, I'm still a bit bemused by that as well.  I'm not dismissing it out of hand, but, if so, it's certainly *way outside* of the norm.  I can imagine a scenario where this sort of thing might happen.  PhotonGuy has already stated that he believed there was a sort of unstated rule that you had to wait for Sensei's special blessing to test.  Add to that the somewhat bizarre pseudo-mystical reverence that general Western society has given to the oriental concept of martial arts Sensei, and I can see why someone might believe that it would be rude or something to directly ask the instructor.  Sort of an odd convergence of "Dude, if you're Catholic, you *don't* question the Pope" and "if you have to ask how much it costs, you can't afford it."



> OK -- but I'm still lost on why this one thing was such an all-shadowing event.  Did it force him from a career path as a martial arts teacher?  Did he lose an inheritance or the like because he didn't get the black belt by 20?  His girl dump him?  I'm sorry, and I know I'm being a little facetious with this -- but I don't get why it's still such an issue for him.


Well, it's pretty well established by now that "ruined my life" was a bit of hyperbole and actually more closely represents "I'm incredibly frustrated by the whole situation, cheezed off by the 'don't ask' attitude of the Dojo, and aggravated at myself for just blindly accepting it."  However, I've decided, instead, to believe that the true cause of the upset is that, in order to aid him in achieving his goal, his girlfriend decided to cut him off until he made black belt.  Can you imagine a >2 year "dry spell"???  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## lklawson

PhotonGuy said:


> You're right, it is another stepping stone, but its magical and life altering in the fact that once you make black belt, you take your training to a whole new level.


I wish.  

Unless by "magical" and "whole new level" you mean, "we now expect more from you and you have more responsibilities around the Dojo."  

Nothing magical about it outside of the magical feeling that, "thank heavens, finally someone has officially recognized all the hard work I've done and the skill that I gained from said hard work."  But, yeah, that can be a pretty special moment, really.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

PhotonGuy said:


> I started at the age of 12 and I was a high level brown belt, the rank right before black belt, shortly after I turned 18. So my goal was very realistic, I had almost 2 years to go that one extra rank.






ballen0351 said:


> And a 20 yr old black belt shouldn't be worrying about making a living teaching martial arts.  They are still learning.


He'd been studying for eight years.  I think that that is long enough to have formulated a down-the-road teaching goal.  And as of yet, he has not shared the reason that having the grade by twenty was necessary to that goal, or if that was even the goal in question.

In any case, ildan/shodan is not an instructor's grade, so it is not as if he would be an instructor at the age of twenty with a black belt.  This thread is so many pages that the art he practices has been lost in the shuffle, but generally senior students take on some level of teacher assistant duties in the high colored belts.  Seniors are expected to work with their juniors, in essence acting as teacher's assistants.  You don't usually see junior instructors until second or third dan (though there are exceptions), and you don't usually see instructors until fourth dan or later (again, there are exceptions).

And of course he's still learning.  So hopefully are you and I.  Leanring never stops.  If it does, then that is an indicator that that something is wrong.


----------



## ballen0351

Daniel Sullivan said:


> He'd been studying for eight years.  I think that that is long enough to have formulated a down-the-road teaching goal.  And as of yet, he has not shared the reason that having the grade by twenty was necessary to that goal, or if that was even the goal in question.
> 
> In any case, ildan/shodan is not an instructor's grade, so it is not as if he would be an instructor at the age of twenty with a black belt.  This thread is so many pages that the art he practices has been lost in the shuffle, but generally senior students take on some level of teacher assistant duties in the high colored belts.  Seniors are expected to work with their juniors, in essence acting as teacher's assistants.  You don't usually see junior instructors until second or third dan (though there are exceptions), and you don't usually see instructors until fourth dan or later (again, there are exceptions).
> 
> And of course he's still learning.  So hopefully are you and I.  Leanring never stops.  If it does, then that is an indicator that that something is wrong.


Except he said he wanted black belt by 20 so he could start earning a living teaching.


----------



## ballen0351

lklawson said:


> You are misunderstanding the point.


I didn't misunderstand anything I just don't agree.  I understand your point but think your wrong.


> Of course it's a hobby.  When I train in Military Saber & Singlestick, it's for fun and because I think it makes my knife-work better (which is, also, mostly a hobby), not because I expect to get in a duel with Cavalry Sabers.


Right and as a hobby he shouldnt be acting like is life has forever been altered because his hobby is not going as planned


> The point being missed is that writing, "if you just want a black belt, I can mail you three" is completely off the mark and, frankly, a bit condescending.  The goal of a "black belt" is not about the piece of fabric, it's about what the awarding of said fabric recognizes about the holder.


It says NOTHING about the holder.  Ive seen really poor examples of Karate walking around with a black belt.  I dont assume anything about you because of the belt you wear.  I will learn all I need to form my opinion by watching you train or teach.  So yes if your entire world revolves around a belt color then just go buy one.


> It's a tangible recognition of skill from a respected authority (the instructor).  It would be the same if, instead of belts, the instructor awarded lapel pins, shoulder or breast patches, different colored boxing gloves, or nothing more than an actual certificate.  It's the instructor, institution, or authorizing body standing up and saying to the world, "We certify that Joe Blow here has XYZ skills."


Who is we?  There is no world wide Governing body issuing black belts.  Even with in the same style there are different Organizations to issue belts and a belt in one group sometimes means nothing to another group. 


> And, no, sometimes not worrying about rank and continuing to train *WON'T* make rank come on it's own.  It didn't in the PhotonGuy's case.


we only have one side of the story as to why he wasn't promoted. BUT yes generally you keep your head down and keep training and learning and the rank will come.


> What did come (we assume) is more skill.  Yes, if you're dedicated, moderately talented, and have good instructors then, generally, skill will naturally grow.  But that's no guarantee of recognition of said skill.


OK where could you train, be dedicated, talented, and have good instructors and not get recognition?  


> Now, I know that some people will say, "who cares if anyone recognizes my skill?, as long as I've got it, that's what's important."  That sounds nice and all, but it ignores actual human psychology.  The human brain doesn't work that way.  Humans, particularly males, crave recognition.  It's often an important element of furthering the "ultimate goal" of attaining more skill.  Human Resource departments and good Managers the world over have figured this out.  They've found that giving out "Recognition of Achievement" awards, or even just a simple pat on the back and and 'attaboy', is a great way to help motivate employees.


Attaboy is totally different then saying that because you didnt met some goal within a hobby your life has been permanently altered in a Neg. way?  Thats an unhealthy obsession.  To make claims that as soon as I get a belt my training will go to a while new level shows someone is putting too much emphasis on an object.  Thats to say I was less of a human when my belt as brown but no that its black BOOM Im great.


> Yes, it's true that some people "buy the belt" just so that they can boast or have people believe they have skill which they do not.  But, to be honest, they're actually a minority.  Most people in my experience actually want to learn the skills but they need to have it recognized too.  It's just a basic human need.


Guess Im not normal I've never been a belt chaser or look for recognition from others.  My life does not revolve around others feelings towards me unless your part of my family.  I didnt even go to my last awards dinner because I dont care about that.  I dont wear any of my ribbons and medals on my uniform because they mean nothing they are colorful strips of cloth.  I train because I like to train not because Im looking for recognition.


----------



## lklawson

ballen0351 said:


> Who is we?


Whatever is the governing body for his art.  There are like 5 major Judo governing bodies in the U.S., there's, what?, 7 TKD bodies, every Aikido style has it's on head or hombu, etc.  That's who "we" would be.



> There is no world wide Governing body issuing black belts.


There doesn't need to be one in order to have some "authority" in that style recognizing belts.



> Even with in the same style there are different Organizations to issue belts and a belt in one group sometimes means nothing to another group.


So?



> we only have one side of the story as to why he wasn't promoted.


Yes, I know.



> OK where could you train, be dedicated, talented, and have good instructors and not get recognition?


Beats me, it's not my thesis that belts automatically follow.



> Attaboy is totally different then saying that because you didnt met some goal within a hobby your life has been permanently altered in a Neg. way?  Thats an unhealthy obsession.  To make claims that as soon as I get a belt my training will go to a while new level shows someone is putting too much emphasis on an object.  Thats to say I was less of a human when my belt as brown but no that its black BOOM Im great.


I think everyone in this thread has already agreed with this.



> Guess Im not normal I've never been a belt chaser or look for recognition from others.


Unless you have diagnosable sociopathic tendencies, then you definitely need "recognition" on some level in some way.  Maybe it's not "chasing belts."  I understand that because I'm not a belt chaser either.  I've had "ambush tests" where I was, quite literally, told "you've been putting it off too long, you're testing today."  So I get that.  But you find your recognition some other way.  Maybe you achieve at work.  Maybe you're an amateur sports competitor.  Maybe you get a kick out of having standing and a good reputation on internet forums.  Whatever, it doesn't really matter.  But the fact is that every person has some drive for recognition and respect.  "Respect" (which is another form or "recognition") is so important that Maslow put it in his famous "Hierarchy of Needs."  Psychology Today had a neat article on it some time back.  Might be able to google it.



> My life does not revolve around others feelings towards me unless your part of my family.


Again, I think you're misunderstanding some key psychological concepts here.


----------



## ballen0351

lklawson said:


> .
> 
> Unless you have diagnosable sociopathic tendencies, then you definitely need "recognition" on some level in some way.  Maybe it's not "chasing belts."  I understand that because I'm not a belt chaser either.  I've had "ambush tests" where I was, quite literally, told "you've been putting it off too long, you're testing today."  So I get that.  But you find your recognition some other way.  Maybe you achieve at work.  Maybe you're an amateur sports competitor.  Maybe you get a kick out of having standing and a good reputation on internet forums.  Whatever, it doesn't really matter.  But the fact is that every person has some drive for recognition and respect.  "Respect" (which is another form or "recognition") is so important that Maslow put it in his famous "Hierarchy of Needs."  Psychology Today had a neat article on it some time back.  Might be able to google it.
> 
> Again, I think you're misunderstanding some key psychological concepts here.


Again Im not misunderstanding anything.  Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I dont understand you I just dont need someone telling me how great I am to make me feel better.  Maybe Im secure in myself and dont need the approval of others.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

ballen0351 said:


> Except he said he wanted black belt by 20 so he could start earning a living teaching.


He said that it was a hobby to some and that others wish to make a career out of it.  I did not get the impression that he thought he'd be out teaching as soon as he had it.  

Not to mention that he still hasn't explained the importance of having the belt by twenty to the life goal in question.


----------



## lklawson

ballen0351 said:


> Again Im not misunderstanding anything.  Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I dont understand you I just dont need someone telling me how great I am to make me feel better.  Maybe Im secure in myself and dont need the approval of others.


<shrug> Go argue the point with Maslow and the head shrinks at Psychology Today.

And, again, the fact that you wrote, "I just dont need someone telling me how great I am to make me feel better" shows that either you didn't read what I wrote or that you misunderstood it because I specifically and deliberately didn't write that.


----------



## ballen0351

lklawson said:


> <shrug> Go argue the point with Maslow and the head shrinks at Psychology Today.
> 
> And, again, the fact that you wrote, "I just dont need someone telling me how great I am to make me feel better" shows that either you didn't read what I wrote or that you misunderstood it because I specifically and deliberately didn't write that.



<Shurg> I don't need to argue with anyone I don't care what they think remember


----------



## ballen0351

Daniel Sullivan said:


> He said that it was a hobby to some and that others wish to make a career out of it.  I did not get the impression that he thought he'd be out teaching as soon as he had it.
> 
> Not to mention that he still hasn't explained the importance of having the belt by twenty to the life goal in question.


That's not how I read it but ok


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

I'm simply reading what he typed in response to your post, which is this:


PhotonGuy said:


> ballen0351 said:
> 
> 
> 
> MA training is hardly college.  Its a hobby for a majority of people.  Nothing more no matter how much you want to believe your a human weapon.  BUT if you keep training and not worry about the rank well guess what the rank will come on its own in due time regardless
> 
> 
> 
> Its a hobby for some people, and than there's those who want to make a career out of it.
Click to expand...

This . . .


ballen0351 said:


> Except he said he wanted black belt by 20 so he could start earning a living teaching.


. . . is an assumption on your part, which may or may not be accurate, but not what he actually said, and which requires extrapolation on your part.  I find it best to respond to what people actually say rather than what I assume that they mean.

In this instance, he has no stated time parameter on when he expected to begin teaching, and as I said, first degree black belt is not an instructor's degree in most styles, so regardless of his age, he would not become an instructor immediately upon earning shodan/ildan/chodan/whatever his organization calls it.

Now, having said all that, I'm still curious as to how not simply having the belt, but having the belt specifically *by the age of twenty *fits into a specific life goal (which he has alluded to but not openly stated).


----------



## PhotonGuy

lklawson said:


> I wish.
> 
> Unless by "magical" and "whole new level" you mean, "we now expect more from you and you have more responsibilities around the Dojo."
> Kirk



Well yes there's that, but aside from that, and perhaps more importantly, you expect more out of yourself. At least that's my experience. That's what I mean by taking your training to a whole new level. As many martial artists will say, making black belt is just the beginning and it means you're ready to learn the real stuff.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Not to mention that he still hasn't explained the importance of having the belt by twenty to the life goal in question.



There are many reasons to that and for me to get into them all would be very complicated but for now, lets just say that making the rank of black belt was something I wanted to do when I was still a teenager.


----------



## PhotonGuy

And speaking of people who don't think rank is important, in some ways rank IS important. For instance, the military uses rank and in the military rank is very important. With most jobs there's rank. Corporations and so forth use rank. And when I talk about the importance of the black belt, I am not talking so much about the physical piece of cloth, Im talking about the rank. Some people give the impression that they don't understand that that's what Im talking about. If rank isn't important you can tell that to people in the military, that they should just serve and not be concerned with rank. The impression that some people on this board give is that they're taking the position that anybody who is obsessed with rank in the military can go buy some General's Stars off the internet for a few dollars. I would like to point out that just because a person has some General's Stars doesn't make them a real General. In the same way, just because a person has the physical black belt doesn't mean they've made the rank.


----------



## Balrog

PhotonGuy said:


> Yes you're absolutely right. I should've asked and the fact of the matter was that I didn't and that was my fault. This is one of the points I've been trying to make all along, that students need to ask their teachers about what they need to do to advance in whatever field of study the teacher is teaching, and the martial arts are no exception.



I agree, up to a point.  The teacher bears a responsibility to keep the student on track as well.  Communication is two-way.  If one of my students had his time in rank and all other requirements completed, but wasn't going to test, I'd be talking to them about it to find out why.  If they felt that they wanted to wait, no problem.  But I think it's my responsibility to stay in sync with my students.


----------



## ballen0351

PhotonGuy said:


> And speaking of people who don't think rank is important, in some ways rank IS important. For instance, the military uses rank and in the military rank is very important. With most jobs there's rank. Corporations and so forth use rank. And when I talk about the importance of the black belt, I am not talking so much about the physical piece of cloth, Im talking about the rank. Some people give the impression that they don't understand that that's what Im talking about. If rank isn't important you can tell that to people in the military, that they should just serve and not be concerned with rank. The impression that some people on this board give is that they're taking the position that anybody who is obsessed with rank in the military can go buy some General's Stars off the internet for a few dollars. I would like to point out that just because a person has some General's Stars doesn't make them a real General. In the same way, just because a person has the physical black belt doesn't mean they've made the rank.


Dude your martial arts class you go to a few hours a week is far from being in the military. However when I was in the military I didnt care about rank other then it was a pay raise and I wouldnt have to do the crappy work details.  

What does the "Rank" of black belt represent to you?


----------



## dancingalone

I think getting your first BB is important to an extent, if only because OTHER people tend to assign importance overly to it.  Don't believe me?  Go to an open tournament or an open seminar wearing a brown belt and you'll be amazed by how much overlooking and/or condescension you will see from higher ranked people who SHOULD KNOW BETTER.

I sympathize with the OP if he feels his life could have been different if he had earned his BB by 20.  I'm not sure I totally understand his perspective as someone who got his own in his teens, but it's clear that he feels sincerely this is the case.  As a teacher and a school owner, I do encourage students to promote when they are ready because for most achieving a higher martial rank is a positive event if only for the good feelings it can bring, even if they never become teachers in their own right.


----------



## PhotonGuy

lklawson said:


> PhotonGuy has already stated that he believed there was a sort of unstated rule that you had to wait for Sensei's special blessing to test.  Add to that the somewhat bizarre pseudo-mystical reverence that general Western society has given to the oriental concept of martial arts Sensei, and I can see why someone might believe that it would be rude or something to directly ask the instructor.  Sort of an odd convergence of "Dude, if you're Catholic, you *don't* question the Pope" and "if you have to ask how much it costs, you can't afford it."
> 
> Well, it's pretty well established by now that "ruined my life" was a bit of hyperbole and actually more closely represents "I'm incredibly frustrated by the whole situation, cheezed off by the 'don't ask' attitude of the Dojo, and aggravated at myself for just blindly accepting it."  However, I've decided, instead, to believe that the true cause of the upset is that, in order to aid him in achieving his goal, his girlfriend decided to cut him off until he made black belt.  Can you imagine a >2 year "dry spell"???
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


Of all the people on this board, I must say its Ikiawson who got it right about the point Im trying to make. I do think its ridiculous how it could be considered rude or disrespectful to ask a sensei what you need to do to make it to the next belt level. After all, its not rude or disrespectful to ask a teacher in school what you need to do to get an A so it shouldn't be rude or disrespectful to ask your sensei what you need to do to get to the next belt, including the black belt. If anything, it would be smart to ask your sensei just so you would know if he has to tell you that you can test or if you sign up at your own discretion as its done at my dojo. 
And no I did not have a girlfriend who dumped me because I didn't make black belt. If you ask me such a girlfriend would not be worth going with in the first place.


----------



## Dirty Dog

PhotonGuy said:


> Of all the people on this board, I must say its Ikiawson who got it right about the point Im trying to make. I do think its ridiculous how it could be considered rude or disrespectful to ask a sensei what you need to do to make it to the next belt level. After all, its not rude or disrespectful to ask a teacher in school what you need to do to get an A so it shouldn't be rude or disrespectful to ask your sensei what you need to do to get to the next belt, including the black belt. If anything, it would be smart to ask your sensei just so you would know if he has to tell you that you can test or if you sign up at your own discretion as its done at my dojo.



You keep beating this poor defenseless  strawman. I don't think anybody ever, at any time, suggested it was somehow wrong to talk to your instructors. 
The idea that the students decides when they're ready, rather than the instructors, is no doubt a great aid to the schools profit margin, though.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

PhotonGuy said:


> There are many reasons to that and for me to get into them all would be very complicated but for now, lets just say that making the rank of black belt was something I wanted to do when I was still a teenager.


You had said that you had a life goal that was dependent upon it.  If you don't wish to share it, that is fine, but was having the black belt specifically by twenty a necessity to the achieving of that goal?


----------



## PhotonGuy

Dirty Dog said:


> You keep beating this poor defenseless  strawman. I don't think anybody ever, at any time, suggested it was somehow wrong to talk to your instructors.
> The idea that the students decides when they're ready, rather than the instructors, is no doubt a great aid to the schools profit margin, though.



    I like beating poor defenseless strawmen, and besides, its how I vent.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Daniel Sullivan said:


> You had said that you had a life goal that was dependent upon it.  If you don't wish to share it, that is fine, but was having the black belt specifically by twenty a necessity to the achieving of that goal?



Well yes, this one goal I had required me to get a black belt before the age of 20 or shortly thereafter. But aside from that, I was more or less "self programmed" to want to get a black belt before I turned 20.


----------



## ballen0351

PhotonGuy said:


> Well yes, this one goal I had required me to get a black belt before the age of 20 or shortly thereafter. But aside from that, I was more or less "self programmed" to want to get a black belt before I turned 20.


How old are you now?  And do you still train?


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

PhotonGuy said:


> Well yes, this one goal I had *required *me to get a black belt *before* the age of 20 or shortly thereafter.


I am very curious as to what life goal would have this requirement.



PhotonGuy said:


> But aside from that, I was more or less "self programmed" to want to get a black belt before I turned 20.


Starting at
 the age of twelve, that was not an unreasonable goal.


----------



## Dirty Dog

People keep asking this. He keeps avoiding answering. I'm about convinced he's enjoying the attention too much to actually answer. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.


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## PhotonGuy

ballen0351 said:


> How old are you now?  And do you still train?



I turn 38 this Christmas and now I am training harder than ever.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Dirty Dog said:


> People keep asking this. He keeps avoiding answering. I'm about convinced he's enjoying the attention too much to actually answer.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.



What question do I keep avoiding?


----------



## PhotonGuy

I would also like to say anybody who wants to come visit my dojo, if you have the time and inclination feel free to do so. Its located in New Jersey and I put the website up early on this thread. If anybody wants to see the website without looking through early posts in this thread I will post it again. If anybody is in or near New Jersey it would be great to meet you.


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## Daniel Sullivan

PhotonGuy said:


> What question do I keep avoiding?



This one:



Daniel Sullivan said:


> he still hasn't explained the importance of having the belt by twenty to the life goal in question.



You've been asked by more than one person what kind of goal required you to not only have a black belt, but to have it by the age of twenty.  You've said that this is in addition to self programming or a simply personal goal.  You seemed to indicate that it was more of career oriented goal.

So instead of dancing around it, what is it?

I respect your wishes if you do not wish to share, but on the other hand, you've used this unstated event to underpin parts of your thesis which you've posted on a public forum.  Thus people will ask.  Continuing to alude to it without sharing it could give some the impression that you're enjoying the attention.


----------



## ballen0351

PhotonGuy said:


> I turn 38 this Christmas and now I am training harder than ever.



Wait your still upset by something that happened 18 years ago?  Did you quit after you didn't get your black belt?


----------



## MJS

PhotonGuy said:


> What don't you understand?



Why you seem to think that you'd be left in the dark as to why you failed the test.


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## MJS

PhotonGuy said:


> And speaking of people who don't think rank is important, in some ways rank IS important. For instance, the military uses rank and in the military rank is very important. With most jobs there's rank. Corporations and so forth use rank. And when I talk about the importance of the black belt, I am not talking so much about the physical piece of cloth, Im talking about the rank. Some people give the impression that they don't understand that that's what Im talking about. If rank isn't important you can tell that to people in the military, that they should just serve and not be concerned with rank. The impression that some people on this board give is that they're taking the position that anybody who is obsessed with rank in the military can go buy some General's Stars off the internet for a few dollars. I would like to point out that just because a person has some General's Stars doesn't make them a real General. In the same way, just because a person has the physical black belt doesn't mean they've made the rank.



LOL....I know cops that are Sgt's and Lt's that are horrible supervisors.  I'm sorry, but just because someone has rank or uses a ranking system, does not in any way, shape or form, mean that said person is worthy of that rank.  I've seen people who were Green and Brown belts and even some black belts, that looked horrible in their execution of things.  

I've said it before, and I'll say it again...rank isn't what impresses me.  It's the skill, the technical understanding, the application of things, among others, that impresses me.  Sorry, I don't bow down and kiss someone's *** because they walk into a room with a cocky attitude and 8 stripes on their belt.  Will I acknowledge them?  Sure.  But I don't respect anyone who demands it.  Respect is earned.


----------



## geezer

PhotonGuy said:


> What question do I keep avoiding?



Once and for all, are you a particle or a wave?

Oh and also the question that Daniel Sullivan asked above about how not making Black Belt rank by 20 messed up your life. After all you seem to be doing pretty well now, back to training "harder than ever" and enjoying it.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

geezer said:


> Once and for all, are you a particle or a wave?
> 
> Oh and also the question that Daniel Sullivan asked above *about how not making Black Belt rank by 20 messed up your life*. After all you seem to be doing pretty well now, back to training "harder than ever" and enjoying it.


Specifically not how it messed up his life, as he's said that that was hyperbolic, but how a professional goal required it.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Daniel Sullivan said:


> This one:
> 
> 
> 
> You've been asked by more than one person what kind of goal required you to not only have a black belt, but to have it by the age of twenty.  You've said that this is in addition to self programming or a simply personal goal.  You seemed to indicate that it was more of career oriented goal.
> 
> So instead of dancing around it, what is it?
> 
> I respect your wishes if you do not wish to share, but on the other hand, you've used this unstated event to underpin parts of your thesis which you've posted on a public forum.  Thus people will ask.  Continuing to alude to it without sharing it could give some the impression that you're enjoying the attention.



The goal that required me to get a black belt before I turned twenty was simply that I wanted to do it. I wanted to get a black belt and I wanted to get it before I turned 20, that was the goal. That's it. I did have some other plans that depended on me getting a black belt before I turned 20, or if not shortly after, but that is not the main issue nor is it the main reason why I wanted to get a black belt before I turned 20. The main reason I wanted to get a black belt before I turned 20 is simply because I wanted to. I set a goal for myself and I give myself a time limit. So that's it, simple and straightforward. I am not dancing around anything nor am I talking in circles, at least I hope people aren't getting that impression. It gets really frustrating when people say Im talking in circles and its times like that when I see the true value of patience, but talking through texts does have big limitations.


----------



## PhotonGuy

MJS said:


> LOL....I know cops that are Sgt's and Lt's that are horrible supervisors.  I'm sorry, but just because someone has rank or uses a ranking system, does not in any way, shape or form, mean that said person is worthy of that rank.  I've seen people who were Green and Brown belts and even some black belts, that looked horrible in their execution of things.
> 
> I've said it before, and I'll say it again...rank isn't what impresses me.  It's the skill, the technical understanding, the application of things, among others, that impresses me.  Sorry, I don't bow down and kiss someone's *** because they walk into a room with a cocky attitude and 8 stripes on their belt.  Will I acknowledge them?  Sure.  But I don't respect anyone who demands it.  Respect is earned.



I mostly agree with you but rank does have its value and place. Lots of people in school are obsessed with getting As in their classes. I don't see anything wrong with wanting to get an A. An A is no different than a black belt except for one thing, an A is used in academics and a black belt is used in the martial arts, aside from that there is no difference between the two marks of achievement.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

PhotonGuy said:


> The goal that required me to get a black belt before I turned twenty was simply that I wanted to do it. I wanted to get a black belt and I wanted to get it before I turned 20, that was the goal. That's it.


Fine, but the bolded part below contradicts what you said above:



PhotonGuy said:


> *I did have some other plans that depended on me getting a black belt before I turned 20, or if not shortly after*, but that is not the main issue nor is it the main reason why I wanted to get a black belt before I turned 20. The main reason I wanted to get a black belt before I turned 20 is simply because I wanted to. I set a goal for myself and I give myself a time limit. So that's it, simple and straightforward. I am not dancing around anything nor am I talking in circles, at least I hope people aren't getting that impression. It gets really frustrating when people say Im talking in circles and its times like that when I see the true value of patience, but talking through texts does have big limitations.


Okay, you said this back on page seventeen:



PhotonGuy said:


> I did have plans in life and those plans  *depended on me getting a black belt before I turned 20 *or at least  somewhere in that time frame.


The bolded part of each quote is what I have asked you about.  What plans in life depended upon you _getting a black belt before I turned 20 or at least  somewhere in that time frame_?

You have stated that these undisclosed plans are separate from your simply having a personal goal, as evidenced in your quote.  

The limitations of speaking via text based media are inapplicable here.


----------



## TKDTony2179

PhotonGuy said:


> I turn 38 this Christmas and now I am training harder than ever.



Do you feel slower as you get older? I myself will be 35 next yr and at sometimes I feel old when sparring the 20 yr old. People say I am still fast but I can't tell.


----------



## lklawson

TKDTony2179 said:


> Do you feel slower as you get older? I myself will be 35 next yr and at sometimes I feel old when sparring the 20 yr old. People say I am still fast but I can't tell.


At "forty-mumblemumble" I'm not noticeably slower than when I was 20.  I'm more experienced and better trained and I feel just as fast and fit, etc.

No, it's not during the fight/sparring/whatever that kills.   ...it's after.  Heaven's above but it takes freaking *forever* to heal even minor injuries any more, blast it!  I have a minor cut in the crease on the back of my right thumb knuckle.  After two blasted weeks it's *finally*, *almost *fully healed.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## MJS

PhotonGuy said:


> I mostly agree with you but rank does have its value and place. Lots of people in school are obsessed with getting As in their classes. I don't see anything wrong with wanting to get an A. An A is no different than a black belt except for one thing, an A is used in academics and a black belt is used in the martial arts, aside from that there is no difference between the two marks of achievement.



Sure, many would like to get a black belt.  I have 2 of them...a 4th in Kenpo and a 1st in Arnis.  But in the grand scheme of things, I don't put myself in some special group.  It's a piece of cloth.  It symbolizes that you've reached a certain goal, but that's about it.  Doesn't mean you're an expert, though one would think a BB would be above average.  Doesn't mean that you can kick anyone's ***.  

I don't have any stripes on my Kenpo BB.  It's a plain BB.  Why?  Personal choice.  The stripes don't matter.  What matters is when I'd stand in front of my students.  How well could I teach them?  How well do I understand the material and how well can I translate that to them?  THAT is what matters!!  My Arnis BB.  Since I've had it, I've worn it one time!  Yes, you read that right..one time, that time being after my BB test.  I've gone to numerous camps, and seminars since then, but in our group, we really don't wear them that much.  Sure, some do, and that's fine, but for the most part, it's obvious who the BB's are and who are the lower ranks.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

TKDTony2179 said:


> Do you feel slower as you get older? I myself will be 35 next yr and at sometimes I feel old when sparring the 20 yr old. People say I am still fast but I can't tell.


One of the fastest guys Ive ever sparred was late 40's, man he was quick.


----------



## PhotonGuy

I should've pointed this out much earlier but I will say it now. Getting a black belt is not so much about getting the physical black belt that anybody can buy for about $5, its about meeting the instructor's standards for the rank of black belt.


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## PhotonGuy

Daniel Sullivan said:


> The limitations of speaking via text based media are inapplicable here.



I agree and that's why I've been wanting to meet some of the people on the board.


----------



## ballen0351

PhotonGuy said:


> I should've pointed this out much earlier but I will say it now. Getting a black belt is not so much about getting the physical black belt that anybody can buy for about $5, its about meeting the instructor's standards for the rank of black belt.


Which instructor your current one or the one from 18 years ago when you were 20?


----------



## PhotonGuy

ballen0351 said:


> Which instructor your current one or the one from 18 years ago when you were 20?



     The instructor I train under now is the same one that I trained under when I was 20. I've been training under him since I was 12.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Are you ever going to respond to this? 


Daniel Sullivan said:


> Okay, you said this back on page seventeen:
> 
> 
> PhotonGuy said:
> 
> 
> 
> I did have plans in life and those plans  *depended on me getting a black belt before I turned 20 *or at least  somewhere in that time frame.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The bolded part of each quote is what I have asked you about.  What plans in life depended upon you "_getting a black belt before [you] turned 20 or at least  somewhere in that time frame_?"
> 
> You have stated that these undisclosed plans are separate from your simply having a personal goal, as evidenced in your quote.
Click to expand...


This is the subject which another poster said you had been dodging.  And at this point, I am inclined to agree with him.

And when I say this:



Daniel Sullivan said:


> The limitations of speaking via text based media are inapplicable here.



I mean that communication by text is perfectly suited to you answering this question if you so choose.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Are you ever going to respond to this?
> 
> 
> This is the subject which another poster said you had been dodging.  And at this point, I am inclined to agree with him.
> 
> And when I say this:
> 
> 
> 
> I mean that communication by text is perfectly suited to you answering this question if you so choose.



    As of right now I don't feel Im ready to discuss my other plans, but that is beside the point. The fact of the matter is that I had a goal and part of the goal was to get it done by a certain time period and that time period was the same whether or not I had other plans. So I don't see why it really matters what other plans I had or why people need to know them. As I said, the main point is that I had a goal and whether or not I had further plans didn't change that.


----------



## ballen0351

PhotonGuy said:


> As of right now I don't feel Im ready to discuss my other plans, but that is beside the point. The fact of the matter is that I had a goal and part of the goal was to get it done by a certain time period and that time period was the same whether or not I had other plans. So I don't see why it really matters what other plans I had or why people need to know them. As I said, the main point is that I had a goal and whether or not I had further plans didn't change that.



Because this goal was 18 years ago and still bothers you so there is more to the story then just a simple goal.  You don't want to talk about it fine but you posted the topic not us


----------



## PhotonGuy

ballen0351 said:


> Because this goal was 18 years ago and still bothers you so there is more to the story then just a simple goal.  You don't want to talk about it fine but you posted the topic not us



   The main reason it still bothers me is because I didn't complete it, not within my self imposed time limit. Aside from that, the main reason it still bothers me is because I haven't really talked about it, until now. Talking about stuff helps, but it was only shortly after I posted this thread that I discovered this martial arts website on the internet.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Somebody said that for all the belts after white, that their sensei tells them when they're going to test, not just for black belt but for all the belts. A more traditionally run dojo might do it like that. The way I see it, though, is that if your sensei tells you when you're going to test for your next belt it should be done like that for all the belts, not just the black belt. It doesn't make much sense for your sensei to tell you when you will test for black belt but to allow you to test for the other belts at your own discretion.


----------



## KydeX

PhotonGuy said:


> It doesn't make much sense for your sensei to tell you when you will test for black belt but to allow you to test for the other belts at your own discretion.



It makes sense, because there might be a lot of lower ranked people, so he will have trouble following everyone's progression. But often there 's only one or two guys going for black belt, and the Sensei has known them and their skills for years. 


Sent from my C6903 using Tapatalk


----------



## MJS

PhotonGuy said:


> Somebody said that for all the belts after white, that their sensei tells them when they're going to test, not just for black belt but for all the belts. A more traditionally run dojo might do it like that. The way I see it, though, is that if your sensei tells you when you're going to test for your next belt it should be done like that for all the belts, not just the black belt. It doesn't make much sense for your sensei to tell you when you will test for black belt but to allow you to test for the other belts at your own discretion.



That was probably me again who said that.  Actually, the dojo I currently train at, is by far, the most traditional one I've ever been at.  However, my Kenpo dojos were the same way.  We didn't ask, we didn't sign up....we were told when we could test.


----------



## PhotonGuy

MJS said:


> That was probably me again who said that.  Actually, the dojo I currently train at, is by far, the most traditional one I've ever been at.  However, my Kenpo dojos were the same way.  We didn't ask, we didn't sign up....we were told when we could test.



I see. The Kenpo dojos sound like they were also very traditional the way they were run. Anyway, if out of respect you didn't ask your sensei when you were going to test, how about asking your sensei what you need to do to be eligible to test? That way you know what you need to work on. If a student isn't being called up to test they should know why they aren't being called up, so the student will know how they should train, what needs work, and what they need to fix.


----------



## Dirty Dog

PhotonGuy said:


> I see. The Kenpo dojos sound like they were also very traditional the way they were run. Anyway, if out of respect you didn't ask your sensei when you were going to test, how about asking your sensei what you need to do to be eligible to test? That way you know what you need to work on. If a student isn't being called up to test they should know why they aren't being called up, so the student will know how they should train, what needs work, and what they need to fix.



Nope. Never once asked what I needed to do to test. I have, on many occasions, asked for advice on ways I could improve as a martial artist or instructor. 
Your focus (from what you've posted) seems to be on the belt. I personally think that's a bad idea. It's something I expect to see in beginners and children but not in anybody who I'd consider testing for BB. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.


----------



## MJS

PhotonGuy said:


> I see. The Kenpo dojos sound like they were also very traditional the way they were run. Anyway, if out of respect you didn't ask your sensei when you were going to test, how about asking your sensei what you need to do to be eligible to test? That way you know what you need to work on. If a student isn't being called up to test they should know why they aren't being called up, so the student will know how they should train, what needs work, and what they need to fix.



Of course.  Not quite sure why you seem to think that talking to your teacher, asking questions, is taboo....it's not...lol.  Of course, as I've said before, even today, I don't ask my teacher every other class, what I need to work on.  If, while performing something, he comments and makes a correction, etc, in essence he's telling you what you need to work on.  Keep in mind, that it's not always what you need to work on.  I know some places have a requirement for hours.  In other words, to go from green to brown for example, you need to attend X number of training hours.  If you aren't showing up to class, then it's not going to matter how well you know the material.

As I've said before....who cares how long it takes?  People, including yourself, seem too focused on the belts.  The belts come when they come.


----------



## Blindside

PhotonGuy said:


> I see. The Kenpo dojos sound like they were also very traditional the way they were run. Anyway, if out of respect you didn't ask your sensei when you were going to test, how about asking your sensei what you need to do to be eligible to test? That way you know what you need to work on. If a student isn't being called up to test they should know why they aren't being called up, so the student will know how they should train, what needs work, and what they need to fix.



The way it worked in our kenpo school was that when you thought you were ready, you would ask one of the black belts to review your material.  If you were ready you were told to find a date for a test.  If you weren't ready you would obviously not be asked to set a date.


----------



## Cirdan

PhotonGuy said:


> I see. The Kenpo dojos sound like they were also very traditional the way they were run. Anyway, if out of respect you didn't ask your sensei when you were going to test, how about asking your sensei what you need to do to be eligible to test? That way you know what you need to work on. If a student isn't being called up to test they should know why they aren't being called up, so the student will know how they should train, what needs work, and what they need to fix.



I don`t see any problems with asking the sensei about what you need to improve in order to get ready for your next test, it is encouraged where I train. The awnser is usually to work on general movement, stance and flow rather than fixing technique a, b and c however.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Dirty Dog said:


> Nope. Never once asked what I needed to do to test. I have, on many occasions, asked for advice on ways I could improve as a martial artist or instructor.
> Your focus (from what you've posted) seems to be on the belt. I personally think that's a bad idea. It's something I expect to see in beginners and children but not in anybody who I'd consider testing for BB.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.



Sometimes you might have to ask what you need to do to test just to clarify stuff. For instance, in my dojo there was this longstanding myth that a brown belt had to wait until the sensei told them they could test for the black belt. The fact was that a brown belt was supposed to sign up themself when they thought they were up to it. If you're somebody who believes that you need to wait until sensei tells you that you can test, than you will be waiting indefinitely if you don't get the proper information, that you're supposed to sign up yourself. Getting the proper information often involves talking to your sensei.


----------



## ballen0351

PhotonGuy said:


> Sometimes you might have to ask what you need to do to test just to clarify stuff. For instance, in my dojo there was this longstanding myth that a brown belt had to wait until the sensei told them they could test for the black belt. The fact was that a brown belt was supposed to sign up themself when they thought they were up to it. If you're somebody who believes that you need to wait until sensei tells you that you can test, than you will be waiting indefinitely if you don't get the proper information, that you're supposed to sign up yourself. Getting the proper information often involves talking to your sensei.


I think Ive read this story before


----------



## MJS

PhotonGuy said:


> Sometimes you might have to ask what you need to do to test just to clarify stuff. For instance, in my dojo there was this longstanding myth that a brown belt had to wait until the sensei told them they could test for the black belt. The fact was that a brown belt was supposed to sign up themself when they thought they were up to it. If you're somebody who believes that you need to wait until sensei tells you that you can test, than you will be waiting indefinitely if you don't get the proper information, that you're supposed to sign up yourself. Getting the proper information often involves talking to your sensei.



Gee, amazing how you seem to keep repeating yourself.  Anyways...thought I'd share something from class last night.  We started class off with some floor drills..moving up and down the floor, throwing various block, punches, etc.  One of the combos was a step forward, downward block, upward block and then punch.  My teacher made a correction on the way I was doing this.  It was simply the way I should've been turning when applying the blocks, and then when I threw the punch.  I made those corrections and got the nod of approval from my teacher.  

Fast forward a bit later in the class.  We hung the heavy bags and drilled punches.  Again, he made adjustments/corrections in the way I was punching, so as to not only do it correctly, but also to generate more power.  Again, after making the necessary corrections, I got the nod of approval.  

I know what I need to work on in those situations, and I didn't even have to ask.  My job now, is to continue to make sure I do those things correctly, from now on.  It's not always what you need to know, as in physical techniques, but how you apply those things.  If you're possibly testing for a higher rank, but you perform things like a lower rank, well, odds are, you probably won't get told to test.  If you only show up once a week to class, odds are, until you apply yourself, get off your *** and show up 2, 3, 4+ times/week, well, hello....you're probably not going to be told to test.  

Again, I'm not saying you shouldn't ask, but if you think that you have to ask each and every time, well....no, you don't.


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## MJS

ballen0351 said:


> I think Ive read this story before



HA!! Yeah, I think I have too!


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## Dirty Dog

PhotonGuy said:


> Sometimes you might have to ask what you need to do to test just to clarify stuff. For instance, in my dojo there was this longstanding myth that a brown belt had to wait until the sensei told them they could test for the black belt. The fact was that a brown belt was supposed to sign up themself when they thought they were up to it. If you're somebody who believes that you need to wait until sensei tells you that you can test, than you will be waiting indefinitely if you don't get the proper information, that you're supposed to sign up yourself. Getting the proper information often involves talking to your sensei.



When you were in therapy, did your therapist ever suggest that maybe it was time for you to get over it and move on?


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## PhotonGuy

Dirty Dog said:


> When you were in therapy, did your therapist ever suggest that maybe it was time for you to get over it and move on?


Nope, he didn't.


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## PhotonGuy

Oh and this is why belt rank is important. Belt rank is important because its a measure of progress. It's a measure of how well you're doing. In school you've got that same measuring system with grades, (A, B, C, D, F). In Boyscouts you've also got a ranking system that serves as a measure of progress. Even in sports like running and swimming you've got that system of progress in the form of time that it takes you to complete certain events. The time it takes you to run a 100 yard dash or swim a 50 freestyle, ect, that is your "ranking system" in those sports.


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