# The Direction Of Ken(m)po



## MJS (Apr 28, 2011)

What direction are you taking your Kenpo in?  Changes that you've made either to the way that you teach, the material that you teach, etc.  What direction do you see Kenpo as a whole, going in?


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## yorkshirelad (Apr 28, 2011)

Sub-level 5000......Mind Control!


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## ATACX GYM (Apr 29, 2011)

Having said this a jillion times on KenpoTalk and here,I'll try to be brief(er) in this response:

I'm functionalizing every single aspect of my Kenpo by subjecting every single technique...EVERY SINGLE ONE...to requirements in ambidexterity,I put them in every primary range of self-defense which is: weapn range,standup,clinch (includes traps and checks),Standing-Seated (one party is standing,the other seated) Seated-Seated,Standing-Ground (Up-Down),Seated-Ground.Ground-Ground,Multifights Armed and Unarmed in all of these ranges,Escape from all of these,Rescue (innnocents,loved one,property,self)from all of these, and Rescue and Escape from all of these.I require First Aid and CPR certification at Blue Belt,along with the techniques.After a conversation with my Grandmaster,I began to require community service at brown belt and black belt (got the idea from THE ULTIMATE BLACK BELT TEST which was a article written in Black Belt magazine a few years ago).I want genuine martial artists who are as competent with forms and weapons as they are at fighting,people who are as energetic with community service as they are in knocking your block off,people whose quality of character and contributions to their communities shines even brighter than their keen combat skill.And doing that requires specific direction.We're a small school.Very small.But our positive impact on our community is out of all proportion to our numbers.

My Kenpo is also the base root from which I branch out and explore other arts and modify to fit our tastes.The modification is primarily in our training methods and technical application.I hold rank in tkd,tsd,hapkido,hung gar,shaolin chuan fa combat kempo,judo,am a MT and boxing coach,I'm a wrestler,a firearms certified specialist from RIO HONDO POLICE ACADEMY,I train iaido,knife and stickfighting (a blend of Kali,Zulu stickfighting, and my own experience all sauteed in "neighborhood scraptastic juice")savate,capoeira,and an assortment of other disciplines like bjj which I don't (yet) hold high rank in.All of these techniques are grafted onto my American Kenpo base...and NONE of them are contradictory.All flow together.My kenpo movements seem to be tailor made for kali,for instance.My capoeira dynamism makes everything flow together from CQB to forms,and adds an explosivity,a nonstop fluidity and the ability to strike with anything from anywhere and escape from anything and anywhere at a whim that is INVALUABLE.It can NOT be overstated how crucial this is.Capoeira is the King of Movement; there is no art in my experience that has movements remotely near its combative equal.And since combat capoeira is also a truely awesome sight but unfortunately incredibly rare? I have a very large advantage over the unsuspecting mortals who might make the mistake of harassing ya boi.My tkd,tsd,and gungfu training methods really make the difference and emphasize more aspects of the Chinese (and for me,Korean) influences in/on American Kenpo...especially in appreciating the power and importance of lovely thunderous kicks thrown in lighting combinations,the importance of rolls and jumps,and the absolutely insane insistence upon perfection of each and every aspect of movement and technical execution.This approach really allows you to deeply and immediately appreciate the value of say a well placed Tiger Claw ANYWHERE on the body.I have passed many a person's guard,mount,sidemount,floating knee,MT clinch,and disarmed many a person with a Tiger Claw,for example.My bareknuckle karate background,my bareknuckle Muay Thai and boxing REALLY add alot to my Kenpo arsenal...again due to the training methods.It also allows me to really appreciate and fine tune my Kenpo movements,especially the importance of what I call "the body whip" in each of Kenpo's movements.

So yeah.I'm looking to make my personal expression as complete as I can.I'm pursuing my black sash in Chinese wushu too,but I won't be able to pursue it the way I prefer until I get my deep purple or brown in bjj which should happen about this time next year (God willing).I frequently get ridiculed for pursuing my black sash in wushu by "hardcore" heads,but I just smh at them.They don't get it.And I see LOTS that wushu can add to my personal Kenpo expression.

No I don't call my Kenpo EPAK.My martial arts approach is the central theme to the practice of THE ATACX GYM.I expect my students and kids to take it and do as they will as they advance and better themselves.And that's that.


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## marlon (May 1, 2011)

The direction I am taking my kempo is to give it a strong chinese base in terms of character.  That is to say, a strong focus on structure, alignment, relaxation and awareness and sensitivity to ones own body and the opponents.  "Kempo is taiji" one of the best quotes i have ever heard.  All of this with the goal and training to develop functional fighters with the skill and ability to devastate an attacker or simply control them, and students who study the art... Myself included.  Primarily a stand up art, standing includes, striking and chin na type actions, and throws.  However, enough knowldege to deal with being on the ground, defending against taking downs and returning to the safer standing position (our culture is not one on one and rolling on the ground grappling in a street fight is asking to get cracked by a "bystander"), while finding locks and effective strikes and body mechanics to make those things count

mho goals
Marlon


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## Thesemindz (May 1, 2011)

Train every day. Teach everything I know. Encourage myself and my students to be better and try harder.

I don't know where we're going. But that's the direction we're headed in.


-Rob


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## ATACX GYM (May 1, 2011)

These posts are GOOD posts.Nice thread!


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## Matt (May 10, 2011)

MJS said:


> What direction are you taking your Kenpo in?  Changes that you've made either to the way that you teach, the material that you teach, etc.  What direction do you see Kenpo as a whole, going in?



I'm testing the outer limits of contact. Everything is against an actively resisting  / countering opponent. Sundays are 'lump days'. 

I am incorporating more boxing drills, thai pad drills, etc., and all sparring is done hard contact with UFC style gloves, mouthguards and a cup. Takedowns, ground, whatever.


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## K831 (May 12, 2011)

1.) Simplifying

2.) Aliveness  

Kenpo IMO, has the best "mechanics" and "concepts" for movement. It is clean, crisp, precise, and teaches a Kenpo practitioner how to generate power in a short distance and cycle energy better than most other arts. 

I think it is plagued, however, by having too much _stuff. _Too many techniques, forms etc. I mean, just bowing in to class is complex in most Kenpo schools. Too many belts, worrying about Gi's and patches, formality etc. 

In short, I think it is the best _system _but often poor in terms of training methodology. 

I am spending a lot of time right now with boxing, MT and Eskrima. All are more simplified than Kenpo in terms of learning the system. Eskrima techniques are actually very similar in approach to kenpo (footwork, angles, checks, striking patterns and targets, open hand strikes etc) but much more simplified. 

Learning curves in martial arts are an interesting thing. The deapth of the art with a system like Kenpo, will often allow the practitioner to be far more devestating over a broad range of circumstances than, say, a boxer..... but maybe 5-10 years into training. However, I would but a boxer with 6 months to a year of training up against most Kenpo students who have say, 1-3 years time in. Why? That Kenpo student is plagued with focusing on number of memorized techniques, forms, sets etc, and depending on the school, he maybe spars a couple times a month. Technique line is most likely the most "alive" training he has seen. Whereas the boxer is working in a dynamic environment from day one. We had a new student sign up yesterday at my boxing/MT/Eskrima gym. Coach put him on the mitts within 30 minutes, working his jab IN CONJUNCTION with functionial footwork, in an alive manner. Most Kenpo students work their stuff in a technique line, where they know what is coming ahead of time, and the attacker doesn't move....and their footwork reflects that. Very poor in comparison. 

Don't get me wrong, I love technique line, and there are some skills learned from hitting a real body in that situation that can't be replicated on the mitts, on the bag, or in sparring.... but kenpo seems stuck there. 

In short, I am trying to simplify, let the concepts and mechanics of Kenpo govern my movement, but distance myself from the stifling structure of the system and train in a more alive manner. I am leaving some of the more complex movements (compound trapping etc) for simpler high percentage moves. Fortunately much of this was done when I changed associations, but having moved away from my original instructor has put me back to doing a lo of it myself. 

Does that answer your Q's MJS? Kinda got into a rant.


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## MJS (May 12, 2011)

Hmm...almost forgot about this thread.  Great replies everyone! 

As some others have said, the aliveness is a big part.  Instead of just standing there, letting someone blast away at you, which is fine in the beginning, I encourage movement, counterstrikes/attacks, etc.  IMO, thats the only way the student is going to grow.  

Boxing and grappling skills:  When it comes to punching and the ground, IMO, you gotta go to the arts that specialize in those areas.  I'm not looking to become the next Tyson or Gracie or MMA superstar, but I do train in these areas, with people who can teach me the basics.  I do add techs. from these 2, into my training.  I'm certainly not afraid to drift from a Kenpo defense, and use something grappling or boxing based, although I do try to still keep it Kenpo.  

Weapons:  I tend to borrow heavily from the FMAs for my weapons training.  

Sparring:  The majority of my sparring/fighting, is more boxing/MMA oriented.  

What direction do I see the art going in?  Some people think that its fine the way it is, and thats fine, thats their opinion.  IMO, I think that if it doesnt change/adapt with the times, it'll stay stagnant and die.  Fortunately, there are people out there, who do adapt, change, and help the art grow.  IMO, its people like that, that'll ensure that the art lives on.


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## Flying Crane (May 12, 2011)

K831 said:


> 1.)
> Kenpo IMO, has the best "mechanics" and "concepts" for movement. It is clean, crisp, precise, and teaches a Kenpo practitioner how to generate power in a short distance and cycle energy better than most other arts.


 
I agree with a lot of what you've said in this post.

I would be interested in seeing you elaborate on the above, however.


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## K831 (May 12, 2011)

Flying Crane said:


> I agree with a lot of what you've said in this post.
> 
> I would be interested in seeing you elaborate on the above, however.



Well, it's kind of a big topic, but I'll do my best to at least give some examples to demonstrate and clarify what I mean. Also, I must clarify that my comments, including the above, are in relation to my experience with American Kenpo, specifically. 

I think the real brilliance in Mr. Parker was his ability to break down movement into a series of very small parts, define them, categorize them and organize them - assigning each of them to a conceptual component. Having everything linked to a concept that a student understands facilitates future learning more rapidly, but that is another discussion.


  I had some ability to punch and kick when I started American Kenpo, however, I had never been exposed to such a proficient way of breaking the movement down.  I knew using my body and not just my arm or shoulder was important. Hips were important, driving from the legs etc but I didnt think about it much more critically than that. 


  Considering the following examples; 



  American Kenpo breaks down the mechanics used in generating power into very INCREMENTAL aspects. Breaking them down as such allows a student to evaluate their motion and mechanics at a level far higher than their actual skill.


  The three dimensions of body movement


1.  1.) Depth 2.) Height 3.)Width


  Primary power sources
1.       Forward momentum (depth) 2.) vertical drop (height) 3.) Body rotation (width) 

  Directional Harmony  This refers to the synergistic effects of moving the three dimensions of the body, primary powers sources and secondary power sources (mass, speed, body alignment, torque, reciprocation, contour, marriage of gravity, opposing forces, borrowed force etc etc) in a unified and synchronized way to achieve maximum efficiency and force. 


  Dimensional sequence of muscle movement  refers to employing the 3 dimensions of the body/limbs in a certain order to obtain maximum results. The proper order of employment is as follows; depth first, height second and width last. Understanding this sequencing allows even a beginning student to recognize correct or incorrect striking mechanics. 
  This breakdown becomes more nuanced and incremental, for example, change in the body dimension of height is explored as vertical drop and then marriage of gravity. Understand the force generated from marriage of gravity helps the student analytically understand effectively employing kicks and punched in combination. 



  Concepts such as Anchoring are used to teach a student that positioning a portion of the body at a lower locale can enhance power and stability. Anchoring the hips and buttocks transfers greater strength to the legs when throwing, bracing etc, anchoring the elbow adds strength to blocks, checks and certain strikes. 

  Hand basics are categorized typically into 3 sections referred to as Methods of Execution; 1.) Thrusting 2.) Hammering 4.) Whipping. 



  From there, concepts that clarify each are learned, for example;
  1.
Point of origin  The beginning, root, or source of any movement. The natural position or location of your body and natural weapon at the time the action begins. 



2.  Point of reference - The point of origin of a specific natural weapon, move, or technique sequence that one can refer to before proceeding to the next comparative stage. 
  Looking at all strikes from their point of origin, and successive strikes/checks/parries etc from their point of reference allows a student to recognize that thrusting is identified by a weapon (fist or palm-heel for example) has a point of origin close to or up against the body, and is extended in such a way that DEAPTH is utilized more than height or width. Hammering, on the other hand, generally originates or has a point of origin above the body and/or target and employs the dimension of HEIGHT more than width. Most hammering motions begin with the hand positioned by the ear on the same side of the body. Whipping, on the other hand, has a point of origin where the weapon is positioned across the body in a retraced position. Whipping methods employ more WIDTH dimension than height. (think outward handsword or some versions of the back-knuckle). 



  From any given position in a fight, a student can look at a technique or action and evaluate its validity and appropriateness by first evaluating its use of dimensions in the most effective way (depth, height and width) second by evaluating its use of primary power sources (forward momentum, vertical drop and body rotation) and then by secondary power sources (contour, torque, anchoring, reciprocation, opposing forces etc). 



  Breaking down motion and mechanics in such a way helps develop the clean, precise motion and helps generate power over a much shorter distance than would otherwise be possible. It also begins leading the student into appropriately cycling energy. 



  Now, compare this to boxing or Muay Thai. Recently we pulled out the uppercut bags and we had a few guys working them. One of the guys was having a hard time really snapping his lead hand uppercut (left) because his mechanics and his motion were off. After watching him struggle, and the other guys try to help him, I stepped in and used Kenpo terminology to help him conceptualize a proper uppercut vs what he was doing. 



  In brief;


  His POINT OF ORIGIN of is natural weapon (left fist) was wrong for two reasons. 1. When slipping the opponents cross (right) he needed to use the angle and change in height (from his slight pivot and slip)  to generate power. Second, he was dropping that left low to gain power for the uppercut. A common mistake when throwing uppercuts, especially in boxing. Point of origin of the hand (not dropping it) anchoring (of his hips to drive the uppercut from his legs) width (at which point to rotate the hips and lead leg) and height (bending at the knees to generate power, not dropping the hand/ angle change from the slip) and he began to CONCEPTUALIZE a proper uppercut in a way he hadnt before, because the incremental aspects of the punch were broken down and linked to their respective concepts. 



  You can do the same with any basic move. Consider a Thai round kick in a proper round kick, you will see depth, height and width come into play, as well as point of origin and point of reference and secondary power sources like anchoring and reciprocation. When does the body pivot (width)? How about when the hips turn over (depth, width and a change in height as the turning of the hips cause a downward motion in the kick). Where is the knee of the striker in relation to the opponent (past, or through him typically) which is point of reference and depth. 



  Any boxing combination (or any from any art) can be evaluated for its directional harmony, economy of motion and whether or not the point of origin of each successive strike is logical and economical based on the previous point of origin/reference etc. 
  Many arts use a similar sequencing or striking pattern to American Kenpo. Kajukembo for example is very similar. However, I have sat and watched Kaju practitioners do techniques that were great in terms of sequencing, but terrible because the above principles were violated. Often the technique at its inception was organized in such a way as to maximize certain principles like marriage of gravity or opposing forces. But, since those principles were not utilized, the technique lost much efficacy because it was organized to utilize those exact principles, and they were not being utilized. 



  I have been in many seminars with other stylists who had a great technique but couldnt really make it work, whereas I just dumped the uke without hardly trying because I employed the principles that were naturally there.  



  It isnt that only American Kenpo has any of these, its that, in my experience, only American Kenpo has categorized them in such a way, and only American Kenpo places such a high priority on them.


  Many arts seem to have gotten sloppy, because they focus on the actions and sequencing, without looking closely at the incremental  components of mechanics. 
  The mechanics , motion, principles of Kenpo allow me to do that, regardless of the art, and that is why I say I let those principles govern everything else I do, be it Escrima, Krav, Boxing, Muay Thai etc.


  I hope that helps.


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## marlon (May 13, 2011)

Matt said:


> I'm testing the outer limits of contact. Everything is against an actively resisting / countering opponent. Sundays are 'lump days'.
> 
> I am incorporating more boxing drills, thai pad drills, etc., and all sparring is done hard contact with UFC style gloves, mouthguards and a cup. Takedowns, ground, whatever.


 
So, next time I come down, i'll make it a Sunday.  I want my lumps!
Seriously, though, there are too few people out there willing to push the limits of contact as Matt says.  I understand that I cannot send my emergency department MD, student back to work on Monday with busted teeth and black eyes...but protective equipment has its drawbacks, also...
Marlon


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## Yondanchris (May 15, 2011)

I have been re-learning my previous SKK material in the light of new "filters" that have been forming through my American Kenpo training. I can certainly see beneficial changes that could be made in a mold of SKK and AK. 

I am loving my training in AK and the new community of friends it has brought. 

In the planning stages of hosting a AK seminar and a mini-tournament later this year. 

Chris


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## Wo Fat (May 17, 2011)

Having once trained in the "sweet science" of boxing, as well as training in Kajukenbo since the 80s (and now teaching), I agree alot with what K831 is saying.  

There's probably no better way to comprehend the strengths and weaknesses of an art than by testing the legitimacy of each and every technique.  Now ... like many, back in the day you didn't even hint that a technique might not be realistic.  You defended against the proverbial straight right hand, and you performed all 8 or 10 steps of that particular punch defense.  And that was that.  

But the reality was/is that if we ever have to defend ourselves, it won't be against a well-mannered and compliant uke.  It'll be some jerk who's 3 beers under, and lookin' to do some damage.  Going forward, our Kenpo/Kempo/Kajukenbo teachers should strongly consider doing more with less.  A little _less_ formality and mysticism, and a little _more_ boxing and jiu jitsu/judo and Muay Thai.

One major problem is that some of our best teachers--those who have a gift for really imparting knowledge--don't know much about boxing or jiu jitsu or Muay Thai, and they are often too proud to either learn those aspects of the arts as a beginner or go out and find someone who does.  

When people have asked me for advice on Kenpo/Kempo/Kajukenbo schools, there's always one thing I include:  when you visit any martial arts school, make sure that you see boxing gloves and heavy bags (and make sure they aren't dusty).


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## K831 (May 17, 2011)

Wo Fat said:


> Going forward, our Kenpo/Kempo/Kajukenbo teachers should strongly consider doing more with less.



In a nutshell!


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## Flying Crane (May 17, 2011)

Wo Fat said:


> A little _less_ formality and mysticism, and a little _more_ boxing and jiu jitsu/judo and Muay Thai.


 
I gotta ask the obvious: if you feel more answers lie in JJ/J and MT, they why do kenpo at all?


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## ATACX GYM (May 17, 2011)

Flying Crane said:


> I gotta ask the obvious: if you feel more answers lie in JJ/J and MT, they why do kenpo at all?


 

Second thought that came to my mind as well.


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## MJS (May 17, 2011)

Well, I dont want to speak for him, but lets look at the rest of the post:



> But the reality was/is that if we ever have to defend ourselves, it won't be against a well-mannered and compliant uke. It'll be some jerk who's 3 beers under, and lookin' to do some damage. Going forward, our Kenpo/Kempo/Kajukenbo teachers should strongly consider doing more with less. A little _less_ formality and mysticism, and a little _more_ boxing and jiu jitsu/judo and Muay Thai.


 
Now, reading this, I take it as:

1) Instead of using fancy lingo or terms, just get to the point.  

2) Many times, when we're seeing the IP techniques, we see compliant people, standing there, while the other guy blasts away.  I'd have to say that was why boxing, JJ and MT were mentioned.  In boxing you dont see 1 guy standing and the other guy punching, you see 2 people, moving, throwing punches, in an alive fashion.  

This, again, is simply my take on his post.  I could be wrong with what I said, so we'll have to wait for him to reply.


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## Flying Crane (May 17, 2011)

MJS said:


> Well, I dont want to speak for him, but lets look at the rest of the post:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
sure, valid points and he has yet to respond or clarify.

I dunno.  I just get a bit tired of people falling back on something else to (what seems to me anyway) "prop up" what they are doing in something else.  Really, if you need to do something else to bring what you are already doing up to snuff, it just makes me think maybe for you, it would be better to just go do that other thing.

What I take from the JJ/J/MT/Boxing comment is: Kenpo lacks the ability to grapple, and we gotta have it, and kenpo lacks decent kicks, punches, elbows, and other strikes, and we need to improve those.  So JJ/J. MT/ B are the answer to kenpo's problems.  Sounds to me like anyone who feels this way ought to just go train in those other things and leave kenpo behind, because for them at least, kenpo doesn't work.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with that decision.  I made it myself.  But if you practice a method, hopefully you have faith in it.  If you don't have faith in it, if you feel something else is needed to fix it, then maybe you ought to re-examine what you are doing and why you are doing it, and just maybe, do something else that works better for you.


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## K831 (May 17, 2011)

MJS said:


> 1) Instead of using fancy lingo or terms, just get to the point.



Uh oh.. is this an indirect comment on one of my posts above?  I HAD to use lingo in that post....had to! 




Flying Crane said:


> What I take from the JJ/J/MT/Boxing comment is: Kenpo lacks the ability to grapple, and we gotta have it, and kenpo lacks decent kicks, punches, elbows, and other strikes, and we need to improve those.  So JJ/J. MT/ B are the answer to kenpo's problems.  Sounds to me like anyone who feels this way ought to just go train in those other things and leave kenpo behind, because for them at least, kenpo doesn't work.
> 
> There's absolutely nothing wrong with that decision.  I made it myself.  But if you practice a method, hopefully you have faith in it.  If you don't have faith in it, if you feel something else is needed to fix it, then maybe you ought to re-examine what you are doing and why you are doing it, and just maybe, do something else that works better for you.



That's an interesting way of looking at it, and I agree in some ways. Some thoughts if you don't mind;

1.) Kenpo has great kicks, punches, elbows, knees and joint locks/manipulation. I never felt they needed fixing. MT/Boxing etc are not an answer to any problems kenpo has as a _system_ but rather, a different way of utilizing similar tools - and that is just fun to explore. 

2.) Mechanically, technique, structurally, Kenpo does not give anything up to the arts mentioned. In fact, I often find it to be superior. However, I look to these other arts (and FMA and Krav for that matter) not for help in punching, kicking, elbowing or for contact manipulation, but rather, for _training methodology _in which case I do find they have some superior _training methods. _At which point, I use them to augment the training in my preferred art, Paul Mills flavor of American Kenpo. 

3.) I believe one can simultaneously have faith in their art, but also place it under constant "evaluation" and re-examination. Part of that proccess can be (doesn't have to be) by getting out there and training with other guys and others arts some times. For one, we spar a lot at my kenpo school. That's great, I got really good at sparring kenpo guys. 

4.) Training in other arts has certainly caused me to think "this is good, I'm glad I have this perspective now" but it has also in many ways caused me to think "wow, Kenpo is really good, and I'm glad it's my base."

5.) A last note, some of us move or for scheduling reasons can't train our base art as much as we would like. For someone like me, I would rather train in something new, but proven, rather than just take a training hiatus.


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## MJS (May 17, 2011)

K831 said:


> Uh oh.. is this an indirect comment on one of my posts above?  I HAD to use lingo in that post....had to!


 
Nope, not at all.   I was talking about Kenpospeak in general.  I mean, its kinda like the fancy terms that docs use to describe the simplist symptom. LOL.  I think the late George Carlin did a skit on that. 









Flying Crane said:


> sure, valid points and he has yet to respond or clarify.
> 
> I dunno. I just get a bit tired of people falling back on something else to (what seems to me anyway) "prop up" what they are doing in something else. Really, if you need to do something else to bring what you are already doing up to snuff, it just makes me think maybe for you, it would be better to just go do that other thing.
> 
> ...


 

That's an interesting way of looking at it, and I agree in some ways. Some thoughts if you don't mind;

1.) Kenpo has great kicks, punches, elbows, knees and joint locks/manipulation. I never felt they needed fixing. MT/Boxing etc are not an answer to any problems kenpo has as a _system_ but rather, a different way of utilizing similar tools - and that is just fun to explore. 

2.) Mechanically, technique, structurally, Kenpo does not give anything up to the arts mentioned. In fact, I often find it to be superior. However, I look to these other arts (and FMA and Krav for that matter) not for help in punching, kicking, elbowing or for contact manipulation, but rather, for _training methodology _in which case I do find they have some superior _training methods. _At which point, I use them to augment the training in my preferred art, Paul Mills flavor of American Kenpo. 

3.) I believe one can simultaneously have faith in their art, but also place it under constant "evaluation" and re-examination. Part of that proccess can be (doesn't have to be) by getting out there and training with other guys and others arts some times. For one, we spar a lot at my kenpo school. That's great, I got really good at sparring kenpo guys. 

4.) Training in other arts has certainly caused me to think "this is good, I'm glad I have this perspective now" but it has also in many ways caused me to think "wow, Kenpo is really good, and I'm glad it's my base."

5.) A last note, some of us move or for scheduling reasons can't train our base art as much as we would like. For someone like me, I would rather train in something new, but proven, rather than just take a training hiatus.[/quote]

I lumped both of these together, as you're both making some great points.  As I said, until we hear from the other person, its all speculation.  But, to offer my .02 on the matter........

I think there are things in Kenpo that're awesome.  I think there are things that arent so awesome.  I dont think that BJJ is necessarily the answer anymore than I think boxing is.  But, as K831 said, its just 1 possible solution.  We could easily sub. BJJ for wrestling.  We could sub. MT for Kyokushin.  Again, as K831 said, for *my* own training/learning purposes, I enjoy looking at how other arts do things.  I recall some threads on here, in which Chris Parker, talked about (and I hope I'm recalling this right ) still keeping the art the same.  In other words, if we want to work with a wrestler on takedown defense, testing our stuff against them, fine, but still keep the defense Kenpo, dont turn it into a wrestling defense.  

I've gone to some JKD seminars, and I'll admit, it was hard for me to adapt to how they punch and kick, but if I could take something they do, and add it to what I do, to make my stuff better, I'm all for it.  

Usually, any time I talk about weapon defense, I mention the FMAs, as being the best.  Why?  Because they're a weapon based art.  But that doesnt mean that Silat coudln't offer me or someone else, just as good a defense.  

As for having faith....I have faith in alot of the stuff, and theres stuff I dont.  So I do what I have to, to try to regain some of that faith.


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## LuckyKBoxer (May 18, 2011)

Well I would say the biggest change we have is in the freestyle system.
We have revamped it into a more all encompassing sports fighting system.
We cover the point sparring stuff at yellow, orange and purple belt, with various techniques from the existing freestyle system. To basically get them to understand point sparring, and continuous sparring venues and allow them to work drills and skills.. If they want to pursue point sparring events on a higher level we offer tournament classes for them to get further into it.
Blue belt material is Kick boxing, with a definite slant towards Muay Thai Techniques. This introduces the students to some heavy contact to full contact sparring, we liked putting this after the point sparring curriculum as its an easier transition at this point in my opinion at this point then moving straight to boxing, once again if the students like it and decide to pursue it we offer a variety of Muay Thai classes from conditioning, to full competitive sports fighting muay thai classes taught by a Kru level instructor in the art.
Green belt continues on the Kickboxing curriculum, moving into more footwork, as above there is plenty of opportunities to pursue this further.
Red belt(used to be 2nd Green, but we instead made it a red belt) material moves into Boxing specifically, and once agian if the students want to develop their skills further we have a Regulation Ring, dozens of bags and pads, amateur and pro level trainers and boxers for them to work with.
3rd Brown Belt, we move into Takedowns, we work off of ten basic types, and give students a taste of what is available. If they like it... yep, once again they have options.. they can train with me in Jiu Jitsu where I teach and train at least 1 set up for different throws a day, and often work combos, or scenario set ups, they can also work with our MMA team, and take advantage of out matted room, or our regulation sized Cage.Our MMA coach is a professional fighter as well with alot of takedown experience. I would at some point like to incorporate a well qualified Judoka into our program.
2nd Brown Belt moves the students into the Jiu Jitsu realm, we work strictly positional movements at this level, getting them used to positions, and ways to move in and out of them, like has already been mentioned we offer an extensive program to further pursue Jiu Jitsu, or MMA, I am actually a Certified Gracie Barra Instructor as well.
1st Brown belt moves into submissional training, working chokes, joint locks to the wrist, arm, shoulder, hip, knee, and ankle. We introduce all the basics, and combine the position changes with submission set ups... once again if they like it they have options to further their study.
1st Black moves into MMA style sparring, all ranges, all of the previous sports fighting information combined. The goal is to have a student at this level that understands sports fighting, the different ranges, the components of each range, and to have some ability in each range.

This curriculum is not designed to make professional fighters, its not designed to make amateur competitors in serious sports fighting venues. It is designed to expose our students to all ranges of sports fighting, work on the attacks and the proper way to use them, to give them an idea of what is available and allow them an avenue to further train and compete in those venues if it interests them.

Like everything else results vary. We have a fairly large commercial school. We do not try to be all things to all people, but we do try to offer an avenue for all things that they might want to pursue.

we also have tai chi classes available.
we do not offer any form of Tae Kwon Do, or Kung fu, or any of the reality based programs like Krav Maga, or those types.

This change to the sparring system occured over several years. I am not so sure we would have made these changes without the space or the equipment to train it like we do. I really could not imagine actually doing all this without the space, mats, bags, pads, ring, cage, and professional skilled people in each range, or style of fighting.
Surprisingly, or not, several of our black belts in Kenpo train in my Jiu Jitsu classes, and thats it, most of the other programs do draw kids from our kenpo classes, some have gone on to leave kenpo and focus solely on one style of sports fighting, some of our Boxers started as Kenpo practitioners..
anyways thats the direction of our.... studio... not sure if that is really a difference in Kenpo or not, since our techniques, sets, and forms are for the most part the traditional Ed Parker Kenpo system.


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## LuckyKBoxer (May 18, 2011)

Flying Crane said:


> sure, valid points and he has yet to respond or clarify.
> 
> I dunno. I just get a bit tired of people falling back on something else to (what seems to me anyway) "prop up" what they are doing in something else. Really, if you need to do something else to bring what you are already doing up to snuff, it just makes me think maybe for you, it would be better to just go do that other thing.
> 
> ...


 
No absolutely not the right way to look at it, well at least not how we do it.
I look at it like this.
We need to teach our students how to attack, what the different styles are going to do, what is inherent in their basic structure so they can apply that to their kenpo. 
I see to many places simple say punch like this, and do the technique... the student never gets a feel for how a boxer might throw a punch... he gets a perfect taste of how an inexperienced puncher does it, look at youtube for proof of that, the majority of strikes are horrible.
So once we teach them to strike, or move in a certain venue we need to allow them time to practice it, so they can understand it better.
I also want to allow students to pursue what makes them happy and what they enjoy.
If a student, like some we have, would enjoy boxing better, then as a coach, an instructor, and a mentor I want to put them where they want to be.
I do not think that JJ, KB, B, J or anything else is the answer to save Kenpo, I simply think that to understand soemthing you need to immerse yourself into it to a certain degree. I have spent a substantial amount of time training in sports fighting ranges, styles, and venues simply to understand them. We make sure we have qualified people to teach these sports fighting ranges as well, so that we provide our students the absolute best instruction available. Your comment about Kenpo not working is crap btw. Its about other things, Kenpo absolutely works, I know it for a fact. Now when you have problems is when you have people who either want something different and either do not have that thing available, so try to substitute something else in its place, or do not understand what they want, and their instructor does not care enough to find out if what they are doing is the best for the student or if something else is. I get pretty damned sick of you bashing Kenpo just because you were either to lazy, to unmotivated, or to into wanting to do something else to make it work. You really need to stop talking about Kenpo like you have any idea what it is, you dont like it, so maybe you need to go elsewhere rather then constantly trying to diminish it. I can look at your kung fu system and blanketly say that nobody on the planet who practices that has any chance what so ever in a fight with me, and unless you want to come test it, or send the best practitioner of your art to come test it well you cant deny it, so it must be right.... the answer is not that its right, but rather your style may have different goals and aspirations then I do. 
You also need to realize that you can get froms tart to finish through the kenpo system on average in about 7-10 years. that is with only a small commitment per week as well, so there is plenty of time to pursue other arts or sports fighting venues, not necessarily because you think Kenpo has holes, but rather because you love martial arts in general, and enjoy training in all different styles and systems. Anyways to end this rant, if you dont like kenpo why do you constantly keep coming back to comment on it? I dont get that.


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## MarkC (May 18, 2011)

Wo Fat said:


> Having once trained in the "sweet science" of boxing, as well as training in Kajukenbo since the 80s (and now teaching), I agree alot with what K831 is saying.
> 
> There's probably no better way to comprehend the strengths and weaknesses of an art than by testing the legitimacy of each and every technique. Now ... like many, back in the day you didn't even hint that a technique might not be realistic. You defended against the proverbial straight right hand, and you performed all 8 or 10 steps of that particular punch defense. And that was that.
> 
> ...


 

Gloves and bags are great, but if you only practice boxing punches to the exclusion of "traditonally" focused bareknuckle punches like the good old reverse punch, you're doing yourself a disservice. Knowing how to defend against boxing-style punches(I say "boxing-style" because just because someone thinks they're a boxer doesn't mean they are) is essential, but you don't need to become a boxer to do that. I see a lot of half-assed boxing in martial arts schools these days.


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## Flying Crane (May 18, 2011)

LuckyKBoxer said:


> Your comment about Kenpo not working is crap btw. Its about other things, Kenpo absolutely works, I know it for a fact. Now when you have problems is when you have people who either want something different and either do not have that thing available, so try to substitute something else in its place, or do not understand what they want, and their instructor does not care enough to find out if what they are doing is the best for the student or if something else is. I get pretty damned sick of you bashing Kenpo just because you were either to lazy, to unmotivated, or to into wanting to do something else to make it work. You really need to stop talking about Kenpo like you have any idea what it is, you dont like it, so maybe you need to go elsewhere rather then constantly trying to diminish it. I can look at your kung fu system and blanketly say that nobody on the planet who practices that has any chance what so ever in a fight with me, and unless you want to come test it, or send the best practitioner of your art to come test it well you cant deny it, so it must be right.... the answer is not that its right, but rather your style may have different goals and aspirations then I do.


 

apparently I touched a nerve and you've actually completely failed to grasp what I was saying.

Note the bolded sections below: 



Flying Crane said:


> sure, valid points and he has yet to respond or clarify.
> 
> I dunno. I just get a bit tired of people falling back on something else to (what seems to me anyway) "prop up" what they are doing in something else. Really, if you need to do something else to bring what you are already doing up to snuff, it just makes me think *maybe for you*, it would be better to just go do that other thing.
> 
> ...


 
I in no way made a blanket statement about kenpo not working.  I said that someone who feels they need something else to make it work, apparently can't use it and might do better to do something else.  That's a specific comment to be applied on an individual level.

The point of my message was actually that if kenpo is one's method, then the answers probably lie within kenpo and not elsewhere.  So look for the answers there, and figure out how to train it better.  I understand there are a plethora of reasons for training in multiple systems.  But if one feels they need one art to prop up another then they need to re-examine how they are training the first art and figure out what they are doing wrong.  The comments by WO FAT gave me that impression, so I was making my own comment based on what he said, not as a blanket slam to kenpo.  Wo Fat has still not come back to clarify his meaning, and I'd welcome him to do so.

No method works equally well for everyone.  Kenpo doesn't work *for me*, so I don't do it.  But I've not said it doesn't work for everyone else.  I've made a personal decision as you have and everyone else has.


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## Wo Fat (May 18, 2011)

Flying Crane said:


> I gotta ask the obvious: if you feel more answers lie in JJ/J and MT, they why do kenpo at all?



Respectfully, sir, I believe the answer lies in the question: yes, IMO _more_ lies with jits and boxing, but definitely not _all_.  Kenpo/Kempo is still vital.  I would probably offer the same opinion with regard to only-Brazilian Jiu Jitsu or only-Judo.  Now, maybe I'm biased toward combined arts.  I mean no offense toward those who practice a singular art.  

That said, there were several Kenpo Jiu Jitsu schools in Hawaii (before the art came to the mainland).  So one could infer that Kenpo, as many know it, wasn't a singular art when it arrived here(?)


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## Flying Crane (May 18, 2011)

Wo Fat said:


> The answer lies in your question: yes, I believe that _more_ lies with jits and boxing, but not _all_. Kenpo/Kempo is still vital.


 
to continue this line of thought, what do you feel one would lack by training kenpo and not jj or boxing?  

I think there is no single answer to this as different kenpo lineages may focus more or less heavily on different aspects, some schools may train with better quality than others, etc.  It's not something that would apply in every case.

With that in mind, in a general sense, how do you see it all fitting together?


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## marlon (May 18, 2011)

Wo Fat said:


> Respectfully, sir, I believe the answer lies in the question: yes, IMO _more_ lies with jits and boxing, but definitely not _all_. Kenpo/Kempo is still vital. I would probably offer the same opinion with regard to only-Brazilian Jiu Jitsu or only-Judo. Now, maybe I'm biased toward combined arts. I mean no offense toward those who practice a singular art.
> 
> That said, there were several Kenpo Jiu Jitsu schools in Hawaii (before the art came to the mainland). So one could infer that Kenpo, as many know it, wasn't a singular art when it arrived here(?)


 
I believe the kempo jitsu schools of Hawaii used the term to mean kempo techniques and not jj


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## Wo Fat (May 18, 2011)

Flying Crane said:


> to continue this line of thought, what do you feel one would lack by training kenpo and not jj or boxing?
> 
> I think there is no single answer to this as different kenpo lineages may focus more or less heavily on different aspects, some schools may train with better quality than others, etc.  It's not something that would apply in every case.
> 
> With that in mind, in a general sense, how do you see it all fitting together?



Good question.  As you say, there's no "single" answer.  But in many instances, there is  synergy when Kenpo makes use of boxing, JJJ and/or BJJ.  The latter is made much stronger and more balanced by the addition of strikes to vital areas (Kenpo).  The former teaches a student a lightning fast reverse punch, while not always teaching the mechanics and destructive power of a right cross or a left hook -- delivered with the proper stance and power source.  And should the Kenpo practitioner find him or herself on the ground, his or her JJJ/BJJ offers a much more realistic opportunity for defense.  

At our school, our Kaju self defense techniques require a takedown and control of the downed attacker.  We also have the downed attacker do their best to get the defender on the ground in a mounted position.  From there, we use jiu jitsu escapes WITH strikes to vital targets when the opportunity is there (we also alternate with "Sport" finishes).

Personally, I have no problem with Kenpo practitioners incorporating other arts' techniques and still calling it Kenpo.


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## Flying Crane (May 18, 2011)

Wo Fat said:


> Good question. As you say, there's no "single" answer. But in many instances, there is synergy when Kenpo makes use of boxing, JJJ and/or BJJ. The latter is made much stronger and more balanced by the addition of strikes to vital areas (Kenpo). The former teaches a student a lightning fast reverse punch, while not always teaching the mechanics and destructive power of a right cross or a left hook -- delivered with the proper stance and power source. And should the Kenpo practitioner find him or herself on the ground, his or her JJJ/BJJ offers a much more realistic opportunity for defense.
> 
> At our school, our Kaju self defense techniques require a takedown and control of the downed attacker. We also have the downed attacker do their best to get the defender on the ground in a mounted position. From there, we use jiu jitsu escapes WITH strikes to vital targets when the opportunity is there (we also alternate with "Sport" finishes).
> 
> Personally, I have no problem with Kenpo practitioners incorporating other arts' techniques and still calling it Kenpo.


 

Do you see the give-and-take between these particular systems as more or less equal, as far as what they contribute in how you combine them and train?


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## MJS (May 18, 2011)

marlon said:


> I believe the kempo jitsu schools of Hawaii used the term to mean kempo techniques and not jj


 
Heres a question...when the term "kenpo jitsu" is used, how much "jitsu" was in Kenpo, back in the day, vs. today?  Obviously something like Kaju, IMO, probably has a bit more than what we see with the average Kenpo school.


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## Wo Fat (May 18, 2011)

Flying Crane said:


> Do you see the give-and-take between these particular systems as more or less equal, as far as what they contribute in how you combine them and train?



I *think* I understand what you're asking.  And I'm gonna say no, I don't necessarily see them as equal parts.  Sometimes the perfect recipe calls for a _lot_ of this and only a _little bit_ of that.

Not that anybody has the perfect recipe.


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## MarkC (May 18, 2011)

MJS said:


> Heres a question...when the term "kenpo jitsu" is used, how much "jitsu" was in Kenpo, back in the day, vs. today? Obviously something like Kaju, IMO, probably has a bit more than what we see with the average Kenpo school.


 
"Jitsu" or "Jutsu" doesn't necessarily refer to grappling, locking, throwing, etc. It can be compared to "do". Jutsu systems (Karate Jutsu, Jujutsu, etc.) usually focus on "real-life" hand to hand combat, while "do" or "way" systems are more focused on a way to develop strenght of character, or a way to do things.
I'm not articulating this very well, sorry.


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## Wo Fat (May 19, 2011)

MarkC said:


> "Jitsu" or "Jutsu" doesn't necessarily refer to grappling, locking, throwing, etc. It can be compared to "do". Jutsu systems (Karate Jutsu, Jujutsu, etc.) usually focus on "real-life" hand to hand combat, while "do" or "way" systems are more focused on a way to develop strenght of character, or a way to do things.
> I'm not articulating this very well, sorry.


Good point.  Personally, I subscribe to the theory that many of Hawaii's early Kenpo Jitsu schools actually employed jits in one way or another because there were so many Kenpo practitioners who also had a judo/jitsu background (John Bishop is a pretty reliable historian and can probably address that better than I could).


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## LuckyKBoxer (May 19, 2011)

Flying Crane said:


> apparently I touched a nerve and you've actually completely failed to grasp what I was saying.
> 
> Note the bolded sections below:
> 
> ...


 
No I did not fail to grasp anything. The fact of the matter is that Kenpo does work, it will work for anyone. What you fail to grasp is that it is in fact an art that works period.
What you are mistaking for not working, is that its goals and your goals are different. That's all. You are using an extremely negative attitude towards Kenpo that it doesn't deserve. You have a different desire for training, and hence went to a different style that matches your goals. Thats it plain and simple. If someone wants to be a professional Boxer, they wont go train in Kenpo, and the reason is not because Kenpo does not work, but Kenpo is designed for something different. So in the scenario where some idiot trains in traditional Kenpo and then wants to be a professional boxer it was not the art that failed him, but his inability to understand what he wanted, and how best to approach it.
What you should be saying is not that Kenpo didn't work for you, but rather you had different goals for you personal training that did not match with the goals of Kenpo, or at least your instructor in Kenpo.


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## Flying Crane (May 19, 2011)

LuckyKBoxer said:


> What you should be saying is not that Kenpo didn't work for you, *but rather you had different goals for you personal training that did not match with the goals of Kenpo*, or at least your instructor in Kenpo.


 
While there may be some truth in that there bolded portion, I stand by my assessment that FOR ME, kenpo does not work.  While I do see some small portions of it that could be useful FOR ME, as an overall system, no it does not work FOR ME.

Likewise, I would not expect the system that I do train to work well FOR YOU, regardless of how well I find it works FOR ME.  Some things just don't match well with some people, and that's all there is to it.

I find it odd that you are singling me out in this, as I was actually defending kenpo in taking the position that, if it's a good match for the individual, he shouldn't need to go looking elsewhere for things to prop it up.  To me, WO FAT's comments suggested that in his opinion, kenpo is defenseless against grappling, so grappling must be studied elsewhere, and in his opinion, kenpo lacks solid punching and kicking skills, so these skills must be acquired thru training in boxing and Muay Thai.  That is the message that his post conveyed to me, and I felt that IF kenpo is a good match for him and IF he has had quality training, then he should not need to look elsewhere for these skills or answers to these problems.

Hey, WO FAT is the one saying he is finding some better answers outside kenpo.  Why am I the target of your wrath?

Now he's come back and elaborated on his position and I'm not going to try and speak for him.  I'm only stating why I said what I said, in response to his intial post.

I would have said the same thing if the topic had been Tae Kwon Do, Karate, Savate, Kung Fu, Silat, or anything else.  If one feels they need to study something else to PROP UP their main system, then either they didn't get the proper training, or else IT'S SIMPLY NOT A GOOD MATCH FOR THAT PERSON.  That's not an endictment of the system as a whole.

Neither is that an indictment of a desire to train in more than one system.  I understand that there are plenty of good reasons to do so, including simple interest and desire.


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## LuckyKBoxer (May 19, 2011)

Flying Crane said:


> While there may be some truth in that there bolded portion, I stand by my assessment that FOR ME, kenpo does not work. While I do see some small portions of it that could be useful FOR ME, as an overall system, no it does not work FOR ME.
> 
> Likewise, I would not expect the system that I do train to work well FOR YOU, regardless of how well I find it works FOR ME. Some things just don't match well with some people, and that's all there is to it.
> 
> ...


 
I still disagree with you. Kenpo would work for you absolutely. You have a different goal though and your goal for training is incompatible, not the art. I have seen videos of your art, I could do it, but I dont have the desire to do it. I wouldn't mind comparing notes on things with a practitioner that has a firm understanding of the art, but I have no desire to train in that type of art because my goals are different.
My impression of Wo Fats posts was not that Kenpo was bad or did not work, but rather that he wanted to pursue grappling arts, and sports fighting arts more. There is a huge difference. I do the same. I have trained and fought in Muay Thai, I love it. I also consider everything in Muay thai to be in Kenpo already. I train, and compete, and teach Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, I love it. I feel that all the movements and work in it is readily explained by the concepts and principles in Kenpo. The movements and drills are not in Kenpo, because the work in Kenpo was not designed to be a grappling art, but rather in my opinion anyways, an antigrappling art. No confusion, no contradiction in what Wo Fat is doing. So i see no problem in his comments. What I see in your comments is someone who never gave Kenpo a chance, because after you trained for a period you decided that you wanted something else. I can not tell you if it was a problem with your instructor and you were taught bad kenpo, or if you just had different goals then Kenpo was putting you on a path to achieve. either way Kenpo works, for everyone and anyone. If you have goals for a specific path there may be better things for you to study. But there is nothing wrong with the art.


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## Flying Crane (May 19, 2011)

LuckyKBoxer said:


> I still disagree with you. Kenpo would work for you absolutely. You have a different goal though and your goal for training is incompatible, not the art. I have seen videos of your art, I could do it, but I dont have the desire to do it. I wouldn't mind comparing notes on things with a practitioner that has a firm understanding of the art, but I have no desire to train in that type of art because my goals are different.
> My impression of Wo Fats posts was not that Kenpo was bad or did not work, but rather that he wanted to pursue grappling arts, and sports fighting arts more. There is a huge difference. I do the same. I have trained and fought in Muay Thai, I love it. I also consider everything in Muay thai to be in Kenpo already. I train, and compete, and teach Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, I love it. I feel that all the movements and work in it is readily explained by the concepts and principles in Kenpo. The movements and drills are not in Kenpo, because the work in Kenpo was not designed to be a grappling art, but rather in my opinion anyways, an antigrappling art. No confusion, no contradiction in what Wo Fat is doing. So i see no problem in his comments. What I see in your comments is someone who never gave Kenpo a chance, because after you trained for a period you decided that you wanted something else. I can not tell you if it was a problem with your instructor and you were taught bad kenpo, or if you just had different goals then Kenpo was putting you on a path to achieve. either way Kenpo works, for everyone and anyone. If you have goals for a specific path there may be better things for you to study. But there is nothing wrong with the art.


 
I hesitate to continue this discussion here because we are getting far afield of the topic.  Maybe this should be continued in its own thread, but for the moment I'll give it another go here.

I went thru a period where I was noticing what I perceived as problems with kenpo and I was working out for myself how I felt about those problems and what it might mean with regard to whether or not I continue to train in it.  During that phase I hashed some of those issues out here in the forums, proclaimed my doubts, the things that I felt were problematic, etc., looking for some discussion and other perspectives on it.  That apparently got under your skin because I suppose you perceived it as an attack on kenpo and a disrespect to kenpo and you disagree with me regarding those problems.  OK, I understand that.  Really, I do, I get it.  But that was my issue and I worked thru it and came out the other side with some clarity on it.

Now, you read WO FAT's comments one way, I read them another.  I commented based on how I read them, and I've gone to lengths to explain why I said what I said.  If you feel I mis-understood his comments, that's OK, but that doesn't change the fact that I said what I said based on how I read him.  Nothing's going to change that.

You keep telling me that I have a different goal than kenpo.  I'd be interested in hearing what you feel my goal is.  I've not stated a goal so I'm not sure how you can know that my goal is different from kenpo, or from that of my kenpo teacher.  As far as kenpo goes, I actually found his approach to be very much in line with my own feelings on how to train, during the time when I was doing so.

I had other experiences in the mean time that ultimately told me there was another way to do things that made more sense to me.  That lead to my conflicted phase when I was trying to find a way to reconcile the different methods.  Ultimately I realized that I could not reconcile them.  To do one would damage the other, they were simply incompatible and I needed to choose.  My experience told me that the other way was better for me, and that's the choice I made.

these other experiences were not quick flavor of the month things.  These were things that I'd been pursuing for more than a dozen years, and I was making some serious breakthroughs that were opening my eyes to some things that I hadn't understood yet.  A big part of that process was being accepted by a new teacher in the other method (my first teacher's teacher) who was able to very quickly bring my understanding to a higher level.  That process began about two years ago, and that's what threw me into the conflicted phase.  He never told me I could not practice another method.  He always said, that's my choice and my business.  But as my understanding suddenly improved dramatically, it became clear to me that the two methods were not compatible overall, and I needed to make a choice.  And for me, the choice was clear and obvious because FOR ME, the other method was dramatically superior.

Coupled with this was the realization that over the years I never felt confident with the kenpo material.  I originally trained in the mid 1980s and earned shodan.  I drifted from it for a number of years while training other things, and came back to it to give it another go.  I completely re-trained from zero to Shodan again, under a new teacher in the same lineage.  I found the training good, I felt it was quality, yet I never felt that I had confidence in it.  That was something that i was not comfortable admitting even to myself for a long time, but it's the truth:  I never felt like I could use the kenpo material in a meaningful manner.  

This is my basis for saying that, no matter how much you may wish to champion kenpo (hey, you feel it works FOR YOU, ok I won't argue with that), it just does not work for me.  

Once again, that is not an indictment of the system as a whole.  It is just a realization that it is a poor fit FOR ME, and I cannot make use of it.

This very same issue came to the surface in the ridiculous and infamous "Capoeira Works" thread.  Some posters were stating very vehemently (with no actual experience in the art in most cases) that capoeira is not a viable fighting system.  As someone with a fair bit of experience with capoeira, I argued against that position.  I am perfectly willing to accept that capoeira is not a good fit for some people.  It just isn't a match and they will never be able to use it.  Nothing wrong with that reality.  But to say that the art itself simply cannot be used as a viable fighting method, well that's silly and ignorant to claim such.

I'm not claiming that kenpo is no good.  I'm not claiming that nobody in kenpo can use it.  That would also be silly and ignorant.

I am stating that kenpo (like any system) is not a good fit for everyone, and does not work for everyone.  To deny that truth is refusing to accept reality.  

If it works great for you, then great for you.  But not everyone will feel that way for themselves.

As far as your ability to do white crane... I dunno.  Personally I think most people cannot do it.  A big part of the issue is that it simply does not look like what most people believe a fighting art should look like, and they write it off quickly without dilligently exploring it to see the potential that it offers.  It takes a lot of time and effort and study to really understand what is really being accomplished, what is even the true goal of the practice.  It ain't just the movements that you've seen on the videos (which I've not yet seen one that I'd say is a high quality representation of the system).  There's a lot going on underneath the movements and it takes a lot of time and effort to understand that.  For most people, these are reason enough to say that it's not a good match.  And most people don't realize how much work it is to really understand it, and for them it really does not work.  But for the people who stick with it and work thru it and dedicate their energy to it, it opens up some really interesting possibilities.

I do not doubt that you could learn the shell of the movements.  But that does not mean you understand it, nor that it works for you.

I do not find that objectionable.  I have no wish to see a White Crane studio in every small town and big city.  I understand that no system is equally good for all people.  If that were true, there would only be one system and all others would go extinct.  So people make their choices based on their experiences.  They choose to do THIS and they reject THAT.


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## LuckyKBoxer (May 19, 2011)

Flying Crane said:


> I am stating that kenpo (like any system) is not a good fit for everyone, and does not work for everyone. To deny that truth is refusing to accept reality.


 
This is all I need from that post to make my point.
I agree that Kenpo is not a good fit for everyone.
I do not, however, agree that it does not work for everyone. This comment comes from someone who obviously has no idea what Kenpo is. So until you decide to learn what Kenpo is you will never be able to understand what is wrong with this comment.
and to deny what I just said is refusing to accept reality.

I recommend if you are going to continue to comment on Kenpo that you learn what Kenpo is, and not what you want it to be.


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## Xue Sheng (May 19, 2011)

LuckyKBoxer said:


> This is all I need from that post to make my point.
> I agree that Kenpo is not a good fit for everyone.
> I do not, however, agree that it does not work for everyone. This comment comes from someone who obviously has no idea what Kenpo is. So until you decide to learn what Kenpo is you will never be able to understand what is wrong with this comment.
> and to deny what I just said is refusing to accept reality.
> ...


 
OK, take this for what it is worth since I am not nor have I ever been a Kenpo person but from what I am reading here it appears to me that he knows what Kenpo is and if nothing else he knows it is not for him. And that you are hell bent on makeing us all say it is the perfect MA for all.

I watched a Kenpo class a little while back and I also know It is not for me and after over 30 years in MA I think I know that it would not work for me and why. Does that mean it is bad? No it doesnt it means it is not for me much like a pair of size 12 shoes is not for me because they do not fit.


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## Flying Crane (May 19, 2011)

LuckyKBoxer said:


> This is all I need from that post to make my point.
> I agree that Kenpo is not a good fit for everyone.
> I do not, however, agree that it does not work for everyone. This comment comes from someone who obviously has no idea what Kenpo is. So until you decide to learn what Kenpo is you will never be able to understand what is wrong with this comment.
> and to deny what I just said is refusing to accept reality.
> ...


 
If it is not a good fit for everyone, and yet it does work for everyone, how does that make any sense at all?

This becomes silly because you and I are arguing about me.  Specifically, I say it does not work for me.  You say it must!  what kind of argument is that?

I generally limit my postings in kenpo to issues where the perspective of a non-kenpoist would be appropriate.  I have no interest in arguing the finer points of the Five Swords, etc.  But whether or not I post in kenpo, I will not ask your permission.


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## LuckyKBoxer (May 19, 2011)

Xue Sheng said:


> OK, take this for what it is worth since I am not nor have I ever been a Kenpo person but from what I am reading here it appears to me that he knows what Kenpo is and if nothing else he knows it is not for him. And that you are hell bent on makeing us all say it is the perfect MA for all.
> 
> I watched a Kenpo class a little while back and I also know It is not for me and after over 30 years in MA I think I know that it would not work for me and why. Does that mean it is bad? No it doesnt it means it is not for me much like a pair of size 12 shoes is not for me because they do not fit.


 
where did I ever say it was the perfect MA for all?
see its misconceptions like that which lead to disagreements.
He has a preconcieved idea of what Kenpo is, where he got that I have no idea, but what he keeps making claims about what kenpo is is nothing like what I know Kenpo to be.
let me ask you a question, you watched 1 class a while back, and knew from that one class that it would not work for you? Now why is that? What did you see in that 1 class defined Kenpo as an art that would not work for you?


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## LuckyKBoxer (May 19, 2011)

Flying Crane said:


> If it is not a good fit for everyone, and yet it does work for everyone, how does that make any sense at all?
> 
> This becomes silly because you and I are arguing about me. Specifically, I say it does not work for me. You say it must! what kind of argument is that?
> 
> I generally limit my postings in kenpo to issues where the perspective of a non-kenpoist would be appropriate. I have no interest in arguing the finer points of the Five Swords, etc. But whether or not I post in kenpo, I will not ask your permission.


 
let me ask you this. can you stand on two feet? Can you bend your knees? Can you walk? Can you raise both hands above your head? Can you hold your arms out in front of you? Can you see? Can you talk? can you ask questions? Well if y ou answeres yes to all those then I guarantee you can do kenpo and make it work. the problem is not that the system does not work, but you want to do something different.
I can think of hundreds of valid reasons for someone to study another art and not kenpo, but not one of those is because Kenpo doesnt work.
You don't need my permission I never said that, I just sick of reading nonsense from someone who has no idea what they are talking about, who has never made an honest effort to understand the art, and who continues to bash it any chance they get even though they say they are not interested in it.
Have I ever knocked the art you train in? NO.
Have I ever said your art wont work? NO.
I will say the same thing about your art I have said about mine. If a persons goals are different from the goals of the art then they are incompatible, but it does not mean that they wont work.


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## Xue Sheng (May 19, 2011)

LuckyKBoxer said:


> where did I ever say it was the perfect MA for all?
> see its misconceptions like that which lead to disagreements.
> He has a preconcieved idea of what Kenpo is, where he got that I have no idea, but what he keeps making claims about what kenpo is is nothing like what I know Kenpo to be.
> let me ask you a question, you watched 1 class a while back, and knew from that one class that it would not work for you? Now why is that? What did you see in that 1 class defined Kenpo as an art that would not work for you?


 
Why would you think it would work for me?

I saw a nice pair of size 12 Reeboks the other day just once and that was the largest size they had.... but I'm a size 14....


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## yorkshirelad (May 19, 2011)

Flying Crane said:


> If it is not a good fit for everyone, and yet it does work for everyone, how does that make any sense at all?
> 
> This becomes silly because you and I are arguing about me. Specifically, *I say it does not work for me.* quote]
> 
> Let me get this straight, Kenpo does not work for you, but Capoeira does..........Bwaaaaa ha ha ha ha (snort) ha ha ha. :rofl:


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## LuckyKBoxer (May 19, 2011)

Xue Sheng said:


> Why would you think it would work for me?
> 
> I saw a nice pair of size 12 Reeboks the other day just once and that was the largest size they had.... but I'm a size 14....


 
because Kenpo is not a cookie cutter art. Its a science based on logic, and it is tailored to each individuals strengths and weaknesses.
think of Kenpo not as the size 12 reeboks, nor as the store that carries a certain number and selection of different shoes, but think of it as the science of making shoes, so that you learn what it takes to make the shoes, and you can make the shoes you choose to.

thats why I say kenpo will work for anyone, it is not an easy thing, but nothing is easy except maybe pulling the trigger on a gun at an attacker. Some people however do not want to know all of that, and instead chose to go buy a size 14 shoe and call it a day.

now you started the wierd shoe scenario, I just tried to present in a way that represents kenpo haha


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## Flying Crane (May 19, 2011)

LuckyKBoxer said:


> let me ask you this. can you stand on two feet? Can you bend your knees? Can you walk? Can you raise both hands above your head? Can you hold your arms out in front of you? Can you see? Can you talk? can you ask questions? Well if y ou answeres yes to all those then I guarantee *you* can do kenpo and make it work.


 
Me?  no.  You?  Sure, I'll buy that.



> the problem is not that the system does not work, but you want to do something different.


 
The problem is that the system is unworkable and not useful for me.  No matter how well it works for you.



> I can think of hundreds of valid reasons for someone to study another art and not kenpo, but not one of those is because Kenpo doesnt work.


 
I didnt' say it doesn't work.  The horde of kenpoists out there are testament to the fact that many people feel it works quite well.  But there are those for whom it does not work.



> You don't need my permission I never said that, I just sick of reading nonsense from someone who has no idea what they are talking about, who has never made an honest effort to understand the art, and who continues to bash it any chance they get even though they say they are not interested in it.


 
the funniest part about this is that this little disagreement we are having arose because I actually suggested that someone who studies kenpo might find answers within kenpo instead of feeling like he needs to look elsewhere.  That's just hilarious!



> I will say the same thing about your art I have said about mine. If a persons goals are different from the goals of the art *then they are incompatible*, but it does not mean that they wont work.


 
If they are incompatible, then they will not work.

I'll ask you again since you didn't answer the first time: what are my goals and how do they differ from kenpo?  And given that I have no recollection of ever stating my goals here or publically elsewhere, how do you know what my goals are?


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## Flying Crane (May 19, 2011)

Lucky,  I fell like there's something you want from me.  A declaration, an admission, a promise, something.  I don't know what it is.  

Lay it on me.


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## LuckyKBoxer (May 19, 2011)

Flying Crane said:


> Lucky, I fell like there's something you want from me. A declaration, an admission, a promise, something. I don't know what it is.
> 
> Lay it on me.


 
nothing.
I just got irritated after reading so many posts from you here and mroe specifically on kenpotalk about how Kenpo doesn't work. I just read one post to many, especially coming from someone who has said on multiple occasions they didn't study it long, and can never describe what Kenpo is. I just really don't get the vendetta against Kenpo you seem to have... Trust me there is plenty wrong with kenpo practitioners... but thats a much different thing then a problem with the art itself, besides most of those problems can be shown to exist in many others arts practitioners as well.


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## Flying Crane (May 19, 2011)

LuckyKBoxer said:


> nothing.
> I just got irritated after reading so many posts from you here and mroe specifically on kenpotalk about how Kenpo doesn't work. I just read one post to many, especially coming from someone who has said on multiple occasions they didn't study it long, and can never describe what Kenpo is. I just really don't get the vendetta against Kenpo you seem to have... Trust me there is plenty wrong with kenpo practitioners... but thats a much different thing then a problem with the art itself, besides most of those problems can be shown to exist in many others arts practitioners as well.


 
there is this... 



Flying Crane said:


> the funniest part about this is that this little disagreement we are having arose because I actually suggested that someone who studies kenpo might find answers within kenpo instead of feeling like he needs to look elsewhere. That's just hilarious!


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## Xue Sheng (May 20, 2011)

LuckyKBoxer said:


> where did I ever say it was the perfect MA for all?


 


LuckyKBoxer said:


> thats why I say kenpo will work for anyone,


 
First explain the difference to me between "it is not perfect for all" and "it works for everyone"

On one hand you say it is not for everyone and then you say it is for everyone&#8230;. This is where the disagreement comes from 

Now



LuckyKBoxer said:


> because Kenpo is not a cookie cutter art. Its a science based on logic, and it is tailored to each individuals strengths and weaknesses.
> 
> think of Kenpo not as the size 12 reeboks, nor as the store that carries a certain number and selection of different shoes, but think of it as the science of making shoes, so that you learn what it takes to make the shoes, and you can make the shoes you choose to.
> thats why I say kenpo will work for anyone, it is not an easy thing, but nothing is easy except maybe pulling the trigger on a gun at an attacker. Some people however do not want to know all of that, and instead chose to go buy a size 14 shoe and call it a day.
> now you started the wierd shoe scenario, I just tried to present in a way that represents kenpo haha


 
I shall make a list

1) I never said it was a cookie cutter art, to be realistic no art is a cookie cutter art. 

2) All arts use individual strengths and weaknesses

3) I will give you the shoe thing, to a point. One may learn the science for making shows and one may be able to make any number of styles and sizes of shoes but not all the shoes you make will fit everyone. They may not think they are comfortable, they may not like the look they may not like the design so even though you know how to make a shoe you still cannot make shoes that fit everyone. If that were the case then there would one be one shoe company. And I will add while in China I saw a pair of shoes I really wanted and the guy I talked to made them but he would not make them for me because my feet were to big. He knew the science of making shoes but told me none of his shoes would fit me

4) Kenpo does not work for me, kenpo does not work for my Sanda sifu or my Xingyiquan sifu or my Taijiquan sifu therefore it does not work for everyone. Basically this leads to no desire or need to train it 

5) Actually I do not want to know how to make a shoe since I already know what shoe fits me and I already know that not all shoes fit me so why would I go learn how to make a shoe



LuckyKBoxer said:


> He has a preconcieved idea of what Kenpo is, where he got that I have no idea, but what he keeps making claims about what kenpo is is nothing like what I know Kenpo to be.
> let me ask you a question, you watched 1 class a while back, and knew from that one class that it would not work for you? Now why is that? What did you see in that 1 class defined Kenpo as an art that would not work for you?


 
By the way his concept of Kenpo comes form years of study with 2 different teachers I believe.

As to why it would not work for me, based on my over 30 years in MA it simply would not fit me personally. It would not work for me based on what I know about me and my personality and my approach to a fight. And before you go off on the &#8220;Its all scientific bent&#8221; all MA styles are based on the same physics and anatomy Kenpo is based on.

I am glad you like it and I am happy it works for you. I have nothing at all against it and I use to spar an American Kenpo guy rather regularly and he was a damn good fighter&#8230; but&#8230;.simply stated&#8230;kenpo is not for me.


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## K831 (May 20, 2011)

Flying Crane said:


> If it is not a good fit for everyone, and  yet it does work for everyone, how does that make any sense at all?



Can't speak for lucky, but I would explain it this way;

I have a friend who only drives big trucks. They are a good fit for him. He likes them, he uses their utility etc. 

I have a friend who drives a Prius, and would never own a truck. The prius is a good fit for him, for many reasons. 

Either of them could get in the others vehicle and drive to costco, go  shopping successfully and come home with the groceries, successfully. 

Either vehicle would "work" well for both, even though they may not be a good fit. 

The point is, Kenpo is based on true principles, anyone who truly learns  them will makes the system work for its intended purpose. However, it  is understandable that aspects of Kenpo may not be someones "favorite"  way to train or respond etc... so it may not be the best "fit" but that  doesn't mean it wont "work" for them. 



Flying Crane said:


> This becomes silly because you and I are  arguing about me.  Specifically, I say it does not work for me.  You say  it must!  what kind of argument is that?



Hopefully the above explanation clarifies this as well. I have had  friends train with me in Kenpo, and we were able to get them up to speed  to where the system worked for them, they could fight with it. But,  their heart still lied in a more kicking oriented art, or a more  grappling oriented art etc... a better "fit". Kenpo still worked well  however, it was simply a truck and they wanted a car. 




Xue Sheng said:


> First explain the difference to me between "it is not perfect for all" and "it works for everyone"



See above. 

@ Crane - If you don't mind, I'm curious as to what lineage you studied under in American Kenpo. You can PM if you want. I don't want to start a political debate about lineages, however, I have been with several associations in American Kenpo, and with some of them, I had some of the feelings you described. I learned after some trial and error, that it wasn't "kenpo". The right combination of the right teacher, and the right association changed everything. Just a thought.


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## Flying Crane (May 20, 2011)

K831 said:


> I have a friend who only drives big trucks. They are a good fit for him. He likes them, he uses their utility etc.
> 
> I have a friend who drives a Prius, and would never own a truck. The prius is a good fit for him, for many reasons.
> 
> ...


 
I get the analogy, but I do not believe it applies.  A martial art is not a product in the sense that an automobile is.

Kenpo has a curriculum structure and mindset and approach to training that does not work for me.  I can't go over every detail to justify it.  All I can say is, I've been connected to kenpo since 1984, tho I've had long stretches where I did not train it.  But I've considered it to be my roots in the martial arts, the first thing I studied, and I came back to it for a few years to give it another go.  With that, as I stated before, I realized I never felt confident with it, I could never use the material in a meaningful way.

My training in other things opened my eyes and made me understand why I didnt' feel confident with my kenpo:  there was a wholy different approach to training and priorities that made much more sense to me.  That other stuff works for me; the kenpo, as a whole system, does not tho I freely admit there are pieces here and there that I can find useful.

Every martial art that is worth anything is based on true principles.  Kenpo does not have the monopoly on that.  But different arts have different approaches to training, structuring the curriculum, prioritizing what is important, and bringing it together.  The way kenpo does that, in my experience, doesn't work for me.  The way other systems does that, does work for me.

I know me, and after over 25 years training in a few different things, I know what works for me and what does not.  I appreciate the input, but at the same time I'm reaching a point of bemusement that this thread has sort of become about convincing me that kenpo MUST work for me somehow.  

Let me back up a moment and qualify this point a bit.  OK, I do not mean to say that kenpo for me would be absolutely useless, that I could use no part of it whatsoever.  I could take the basics and use them to be a moderately effective and successful brawler.  A handful of the SD techs might give me the material and know-how get me out of a scrape if someone tried to grab ahold of me somehow.  So no, it's not 100% unuseable to me.  I think it's important to recognize that we usually cannot speak in absolutes.

However, the vast majority of what is in the curriculum, that we work on and train, does not work for me and doesn't make sense to me as a training model and a curriculum.  Much of it simply does not connect for me, and as a vehicle for self defense and/or pugilism, I do not believe kenpo would ever get me beyond moderately effective and successful.

I'm looking for more than that, and kenpo will not get me there.

Other systems however, for me, I believe will take me beyond that.  The way the system is structured, the curriulum, the training methods, the very mindset and approach to the material is different, and it makes tremendous sense to me and that is a vehicle that I can embrace to rise to a higher level.

That is what I mean when I say, Kenpo does not work for me.  It's not absolute.  But relative to other methods, it does not work nearly as well for me.



> @ Crane - If you don't mind, I'm curious as to what lineage you studied under in American Kenpo. You can PM if you want. I don't want to start a political debate about lineages, however, I have been with several associations in American Kenpo, and with some of them, I had some of the feelings you described. I learned after some trial and error, that it wasn't "kenpo". The right combination of the right teacher, and the right association changed everything. Just a thought.


 
I've never made a secret about my training.  I've trained in the Tracy lineage in the 1980s, to Shodan.  This thread was posted in the General Kenpo Section, so I did not assume it was strictly later lineages of kenpo.  I drifted for a bunch of years while I was interested in other things, then a few years ago found a new teacher in Tracys and completely retrained to shodan and retested again.  My last teacher is one of the best and senior-most teachers in the Tracy lineage.  He is extremely skilled and knowledgeable, and honestly I learned a lot from him.  I have infinite respect for him, and I want to make it clear that absolutely everything that I am saying in all this is ME, and in no way reflects on him.  He has not failed me as a teacher, as a friend, as a kenpoist.  He did his job remarkably well.  It was ME who connected the dots based on my other experiences and realized that kenpo is not the best path for me and does not work well for me.

I appreciate the discussion on this, but we have really gone quite wide of the topic of this thread.  I don't want to make this thread about me, and why kenpo does not work for me.  I didn't intend that.  Further discussion on that specifically, maybe should be taken to private messages, or even a new thread, I don't mind.


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## Touch Of Death (May 20, 2011)

Flying Crane said:


> I get the analogy, but I do not believe it applies.  A martial art is not a product in the sense that an automobile is.
> 
> Kenpo has a curriculum structure and mindset and approach to training that does not work for me.  I can't go over every detail to justify it.  All I can say is, I've been connected to kenpo since 1984, tho I've had long stretches where I did not train it.  But I've considered it to be my roots in the martial arts, the first thing I studied, and I came back to it for a few years to give it another go.  With that, as I stated before, I realized I never felt confident with it, I could never use the material in a meaningful way.
> 
> ...


I appreciate your position but, objectively, I would hate to have you judge what I do, from your experiences with some Tracy's Guy, but If Kenpo sucks it sucks. LOL
Sean


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## Flying Crane (May 20, 2011)

Touch Of Death said:


> I appreciate your position but, objectively, I would hate to have you judge what I do, from your experiences with some Tracy's Guy, but If Kenpo sucks it sucks. LOL
> Sean


 
i aint' sayin' it sucks.

I'm only saying it doesn't work well for me, and I'm saying that every system will have people for whom it just doesn't come together and doesn't work.  But that's a far cry from saying it sucks.


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## Xue Sheng (May 23, 2011)

K831 said:


> Can't speak for lucky, but I would explain it this way;
> 
> I have a friend who only drives big trucks. They are a good fit for him. He likes them, he uses their utility etc.
> 
> ...


 

I see the issue here...it's semantics.... I am not saying Kenpo does not work when I say it does not work for me... I am saying I have no desire to train it what-so-ever since I see no need for me to train it.


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