# TKD school - sparring optional?



## tinker1

A neighbor trains at a local TKD chain "Taekwondo Center", run by GM Sang Lee.  So we discuss TKD from time to time.. his kids go there too.

Recently he told me that neither he or his kids spar, and yet they are preparing for their first Dan test.  He said sparring is optional.

Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I just don't see how you can progress in the martial arts without sparring.  Sure, you can learn the techniques and the forms - but without practice on a partner that's working against you, I don't see how anyone can develop any practical application experience.

He also said they don't learn much about self defense.

So... is this the way TKD schools are run these days?


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## Manny

I think sparring must not be optional, the students must do sparr regulary, so sparring must be a PART of the TKD program as MUST BE self defense.

No matter the student is super foot wallace or just mom's boy the student has to sparr.

In my dojang every friday is sparring night, the students do a ver good warm up and then proced to do kicking drills to finish with kyorugi, round robin is the norm.

Learning/training TKD without sparring is like training soccer and never get inside the field for a soccer match/game.

Manny


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## terryl965

Not at my school, except if they have a medical reason not to spar and have full contact/


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## msmitht

Interesting...
Its like Learning addition, subtraction and multiplication without division. Or only learning a-p in the alphabet.
I understand why some schools do it. Many will not train if there is contact involved. They can still train at my school. They just can not get past green belt


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## rlobrecht

We start sparring at yellow belt.  It's not optional, although I've never heard a parent question it.


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## dancingalone

At least they're honest about it.  I've heard of some TKD schools that have no-contact sparring which I think is even worse than not sparring at all.

You can do a lot of precision and timing drills with bag work and paddle/pad drills, but still....


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## sfs982000

I would have to agree that it has to be mandatory to spar at some point, even if it's kept a light contact for the younger kids.  It's an essential part of learning martial arts and shouldn't be optional.  If a student opts out of sparring they're not getting the full training experience they need to grow into the martial arts.


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## Gemini

Sparring is not optional. Period.



dancingalone said:


> I've heard of some TKD schools that have no-contact sparring which I think is even worse than not sparring at all.



When done correctly, no contact sparring offers definite advantages. However, to your opinion, when done incorrectly, it can cause more harm than good; but that's pretty much true on anything done incorrectly.


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## dancingalone

I think it's worse.  Why?  Mainly because you might build up some confidence that you can move and strike well, yet you never get the real acid test of what happens to your composure when someone nails you back, possibly with a good deal of force.


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## Namii

Ours is mandatory. In order to test for green and up we have to spar. I'm a new orange belt so guess what...time to start sparring for me. (Which is fine  I'm excited for it.)


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## Gemini

dancingalone said:


> I think it's worse.  Why?  Mainly because you might build up some confidence that you can move and strike well, yet you never get the real acid test of what happens to your composure when someone nails you back, possibly with a good deal of force.


 True, if you train exclusively in no contact, I agree. Examples you've mentioned do require physical contact and knowing those limitations are essential to knowing one's abilities and limitations. At the same time, not all lessons are based around physical tolerance. In fact, it may even prove detrimental to certain lessons. Additionally, the human body can only take so much pounding regardless of what tolerance of pain you achieve. Why inflict punishment into lessons that don't benefit from it.


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## MaxiMe

Namii said:


> Ours is mandatory. In order to test for green and up we have to spar. I'm a new orange belt so guess what...time to start sparring for me. (Which is fine  I'm excited for it.)


 
We usualy start our sparring 2-3 belts in After that. Who can say no. To a fun therapy session.

Good luck and just keep moving/angleing.


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## dancingalone

Gemini said:


> Why inflict punishment into lessons that don't benefit from it.



I don't disagree with this statement.  All things have their proper place... and correct time.

That said, I think non-contact sparring is a very low ROI activity.  I'd much rather be doing partner pad and focus mitt work if we don't want to be hitting each other.


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## puunui

tinker1 said:


> So... is this the way TKD schools are run these days?




It has been moving in this direction for quite a long time now. Instructors have discovered that students tend to stay longer if there is no sparring involved. Students do Taekwondo or other martial arts now for reasons other than "self defense" or competition. Discovering that niche is I think one of the keys to having a very successful martial arts business.


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## tinker1

What baffles me is that this is GM Sang Lee's school... he's pretty tied into the WTF and Olympic style competition.. so this just really seems strange to me.

GM Sang Lee


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## puunui

tinker1 said:


> What baffles me is that this is GM Sang Lee's school... he's pretty tied into the WTF and Olympic style competition.. so this just really seems strange to me.
> GM Sang Lee



People evolve, including and especially President Sang Lee. I can tell you that his values have not changed, respect is still one of the most important concepts to him in the martial arts, but he has changed with the times on other things.


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## chrispillertkd

tinker1 said:


> A neighbor trains at a local TKD chain "Taekwondo Center", run by GM Sang Lee. So we discuss TKD from time to time.. his kids go there too.
> 
> Recently he told me that neither he or his kids spar, and yet they are preparing for their first Dan test. He said sparring is optional.


 
I have never heard of this from a Taekwon-Do school. In fact, I've never heard of it from any MA school which teaches a style that includes free sparring in its curriculum (I am assiming you mean free sparring and not pre-arranged sparring such as 3-, 2- and 1-step sparring). 



> Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I just don't see how you can progress in the martial arts without sparring. Sure, you can learn the techniques and the forms - but without practice on a partner that's working against you, I don't see how anyone can develop any practical application experience.


 
Well, that would depend on the martial art, really. I think there are many very valuable skills to be learned from free sparring. At the same time, it can really only be entered into with a great deal of limitations placed upon the practitioners. It is by no means an equivalent of self-defense training, although it (like all aspects of training) certainly develops skills that can apply to self-defense training. 

There are, however, martial arts that do not include free sparring in their curriculum. Most if not all of the Japanese koryu, for instance, include no equivalent of free sparring in their training. And yet these arts were specifically developed to impart effective combat skills (and have done so throughout there history). Granted the aim of these and more modern systems such as Taekwon-Do, as well as the combat methods they use, are different.



> He also said they don't learn much about self defense.


 
Eh, this is less surprising. 



> So... is this the way TKD schools are run these days?


 
That would depend on many things and what you mean by "TKD schools ... these days." In my experience, no. No ITF school I am familiar with allows students the "option" of free sparring. They could exist, I suppose, but I don't know about them. 

Pax,

Chris


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## Earl Weiss

I believe in no sparring training. In fact my schedule has that right after my swimming lessons where we never go in the water.  But I bet if we ever get wet we'll be really great swimmers!


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## puunui

chrispillertkd said:


> I have never heard of this from a Taekwon-Do school. In fact, I've never heard of it from any MA school which teaches a style that includes free sparring in its curriculum (I am assiming you mean free sparring and not pre-arranged sparring such as 3-, 2- and 1-step sparring).



In a bad economy, President Lee's 29 year old son, who basically runs the three dojang owned by his father, just bought a brand new, 5 or 6 bedroom house for about a half million. He did it by having over a thousand students. They also own at least two of the three buildings in which the dojang are located. I seriously don't think they care if you haven't heard of a school with optional or no free sparring. It's the way martial arts are going in the United States. It's the way martial arts has been going in the United States for a long time now. The days of paying $50 a month to train in a carpeted warehouse is over. 

What kind of house did you own when you were 29, and how many students did you have?


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## ralphmcpherson

For us sparring is compulsory and a grading requirement from 7th gup on. I came to tkd from a karate background where we did no sparring. After 6 months in tkd I felt I was going great, my kicks seemed fast and accurate, my hands were moving well and my footwork felt great. Then I sparred full contact for the first time. Massive reality check.


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## puunui

Earl Weiss said:


> I believe in no sparring training. In fact my schedule has that right after my swimming lessons where we never go in the water.  But I bet if we ever get wet we'll be really great swimmers!




Believe it or not, there are some people out there who will pay big money to take dry land swimming lessons, just as long as they never have to get in the water if they don't want to. They don't care if they can actually swim or not. They just like taking lessons.


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## chrispillertkd

puunui said:


> In a bad economy, President Lee's 29 year old son, who basically runs the three dojang owned by his father, just bought a brand new, 5 or 6 bedroom house for about a half million. He did it by having over a thousand students. They also own at least two of the three buildings in which the dojang are located. I seriously don't think they care if you haven't heard of a school with optional or no free sparring. It's the way martial arts are going in the United States. It's the way martial arts has been going in the United States for a long time now. The days of paying $50 a month to train in a carpeted warehouse is over.
> 
> What kind of house did you own when you were 29, and how many students did you have?


 
It's awesome that he's able to buy a $500K house in a bad economy. If not teaching free sparring to some of his students is beneficial economically for him then more power to him. People are free to teach as much, or as little, of Taekwon-Do as they wish and make as much or as little of it mandatory for their students.  

As for whether or not GM Sang Lee and his son care about my opinion, that's irrelevant. This is a public bulletin board and the _original poster_ asked some questions, which I answered. 

I would be very interested in seeing some actual statistics for teaching free sparring optionally for U.S. schools if you're going to claim, without qualification, "It's the way martial arts are going in the United States. It's the way martial arts has been going in the United States for a long time now."

Pax,

Chris


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## puunui

chrispillertkd said:


> I would be very interested in seeing some actual statistics for teaching free sparring optionally for U.S. schools if you're going to claim, without qualification, "It's the way martial arts are going in the United States. It's the way martial arts has been going in the United States for a long time now."



Go attend any of the martial art business seminars that are frequently hosted. It has been advocated there for a while now. Seems like the largest schools are all converting to no sparring or optional sparring. Attendance at USTU events for combined Nationals and JOs was about 7500 competitors. Now attendance is so poor USAT had to combine the two into one long event, with maybe 2500 competitors, a 67% drop. Alaska alone used to send 700 competitors. I would be surprised if they still send 100 or even 50 now. Here, only a few schools send students to state and especially national competition. Tournaments are shrinking or ending altogether. Like I said, it's what's been going on for a while now. 

Instructors still have students buy sparring equipment, which they wear during sparring oriented classes. They just aren't forced to spar anymore.


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## chrispillertkd

puunui said:


> Go attend any of the martial art business seminars that are frequently hosted. It has been advocated there for a while now. Seems like the largest schools are all converting to no sparring or optional sparring.
> 
> Attendance at USTU events for combined Nationals and JOs was about 7500 competitors. Now attendance is so poor USAT had to combine the two into one long event, with maybe 2500 competitors, a 67% drop. Alaska alone used to send 700 competitors. I would be surprised if they still send 100 or even 50 now. Here, only a few schools send students to state and especially national competition. Tournaments are shrinking or ending altogether. Like I said, it's what's been going on for a while now.


 
It may well _seem_ to you like the largest schools are going the optional free sparring route. But if there are any figures on how many schools, or what percentage of them, attend MA business seminars and how many of those implement the suggestion to stop teaching free sparring I would like to see them. Without those all one can honestly say is that according to your anecdotal evidence USTU events (and now, perhaps, USAT ones?) have seen a decrease in competitors. One would have to do quite a bit of research to get information on the _cause_ of this decrease. Even if the school owners you have talked to have said they don't require their students to learn free sparring that doesn't mean a statistically significant number of them have changed their teaching methods. Since correlation isn't the same thing as causation it's possible that there's some other variable causing the decrease in tournament attendence that you mentioned.  

Even if you're going to use the organizations and events that you've mentioned as the population you're going to study then all you can say about the results of your research is that it applies to those organizations, not to Taekwon-Do schools as a whole (even less could one say it applies to martial arts schools as a whole). It's why I said in my post that "_n my experience, no." I then further qualified it by saying "[n]o ITF schools I am familiar with" have free sparring as an option. 

Pax,

Chris_


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## granfire

I have been told the former ITA has started going the route of optional sparring.

Granted I have been out of the loop for a few years now, I find the trend disturbing.

I see the benefits of carefully introducing the students to sparring.
Especially women tend to be timid about it, not to say scared. I saw that as one of my most important job as a sr belt to make _sure_ they had a good time in the beginning so they could grow.

There is a huge difference between pummeling 'BOB' and actually getting hit back.
And the contact level is low to medium in ITA rules.


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## puunui

chrispillertkd said:


> It may well _seem_ to you like the largest schools are going the optional free sparring route. But if there are any figures on how many schools, or what percentage of them, attend MA business seminars and how many of those implement the suggestion to stop teaching free sparring I would like to see them. Without those all one can honestly say is that according to your anecdotal evidence USTU events (and now, perhaps, USAT ones?) have seen a decrease in competitors. One would have to do quite a bit of research to get information on the _cause_ of this decrease. Even if the school owners you have talked to have said they don't require their students to learn free sparring that doesn't mean a statistically significant number of them have changed their teaching methods. Since correlation isn't the same thing as causation it's possible that there's some other variable causing the decrease in tournament attendence that you mentioned.



If you say so. But the trend is pretty obvious to me and has been for quite a while.


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## puunui

granfire said:


> I have been told the former ITA has started going the route of optional sparring. Granted I have been out of the loop for a few years now, I find the trend disturbing.



Didn't you read chrisspillertkd's post? Your anecdotal observations don't prove anything.


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## chrispillertkd

puunui said:


> Didn't you read chrisspillertkd's post? Your anecdotal observations don't prove anything.


 
Actually, Glenn, granfire's post makes quite a bit of sense. Granfire said they were "told the former ITA was going the route of optional sparring." That's just a report of what they were told by someone else, not a claim about a general trend in all Taekwon-Do schools, or even all martial arts schools, in the country. 

Not even the second sentence "Granted I have been out of the loop [of the ITA I presume since, IIRC, granfire is no longer an ITA member] for a few years now, I find the trend disturbing" can be taken as trying to "prove" anything. It's just a reaction to what they were told by someone else.

Pax, 

Chris


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## oftheherd1

dancingalone said:


> I think it's worse.  Why?  Mainly because you might build up some confidence that you can move and strike well, yet you never get the real acid test of what happens to your composure when someone nails you back, possibly with a good deal of force.



I mentioned in another thread that in the mid-60s, when I studied with Jhoon Goo Rhee, Tae Kwon Do and Karate required a full strength punch or kick, with sufficient control to stop before contact.  It wasn't a sport then either.  You were just expected to have that much control.  

The idea was that if you had sufficient control that you could stop an eighth to quarter inch from someone, if the need arose, you could stop one or two inches inside at well.  But I can see some advantages to padded contact, as long as the control isn't lost.


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## granfire

puunui said:


> Didn't you read chrisspillertkd's post? Your anecdotal observations don't prove anything.



Didn't say it did.

But it's another puzzle in the over all trend we seem to see.
We gamers call it 'nerfing'


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## Earl Weiss

oftheherd1 said:


> I mentioned in another thread that in the mid-60s, when I studied with Jhoon Goo Rhee, Tae Kwon Do and Karate required a full strength punch or kick, with sufficient control to stop before contact. It wasn't a sport then either. You were just expected to have that much control.
> 
> The idea was that if you had sufficient control that you could stop an eighth to quarter inch from someone, if the need arose, you could stop one or two inches inside at well. But I can see some advantages to padded contact, as long as the control isn't lost.


 
See post #20. 

I had a lineage that involved this long ago. Same as Jhoon Rhee since my instructor was with Han Cha Kyo when I started.  We believed all that ful power cr*p.  Then we did contact sparring. 
One of the realities was as Mike Tyson Put it: everyone has a plan, ... then they get punched in the face." 
Anyone not sparring should have the cajones to call what they do "Tae Bo"


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## puunui

chrispillertkd said:


> Actually, Glenn, granfire's post makes quite a bit of sense. Granfire said they were "told the former ITA was going the route of optional sparring." That's just a report of what they were told by someone else, not a claim about a general trend in all Taekwon-Do schools, or even all martial arts schools, in the country.
> 
> Not even the second sentence "Granted I have been out of the loop [of the ITA I presume since, IIRC, granfire is no longer an ITA member] for a few years now, I find the trend disturbing" can be taken as trying to "prove" anything. It's just a reaction to what they were told by someone else.
> 
> Pax,
> 
> Chris



Again, if you say so. By the way, what "trend" do you think she was talking about? And does ITA do "Taekwon-do" or "Taekwondo"?


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## puunui

granfire said:


> But it's another puzzle in the over all trend we seem to see.
> We gamers call it 'nerfing'




Which overall trend, the one where dojang or even entire organizations are going to optional sparring?


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## chrispillertkd

puunui said:


> Again, if you say so. By the way, what "trend" do you think she was talking about? And does ITA do "Taekwon-do" or "Taekwondo"?


 
I think she meant the trend that the ITA is apparently making sparring optional. You could ask her yourself if you're unsure about what she meant. 

As for Taekwon-Do vs. Taekwondo, the word is a transliteration of hangul. Unless you take the various English spellings to denote different martial arts it's simply a matter of taste how you spell it.

Pax,

Chris


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## ralphmcpherson

puunui said:


> If you say so. But the trend is pretty obvious to me and has been for quite a while.


Not over here or in many other places for that matter. You should get out more. Unless you can show actual stats then its just your opinion.


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## granfire

puunui said:


> Again, if you say so. By the way, what "trend" do you think she was talking about? And does ITA do "Taekwon-do" or "Taekwondo"?




They call it 'Tiger Rock Martial Arts' 

You know good and well 'The Trend': teach less, demand less, but charge the same or more.
In the ITA case it went together with some fancy name changes.

At one time the organization demanded 2 forms per BB rank, shriveled to 1
They had a BB camp that legendary (crawl through mud, work out til you puke)
I never got around to do 'Green Belt Camp', a day of amped up workouts with the regions instructors. Around lunch time the kids were pooped and really good to have.

Now they implemented half forms for Junior color belts. That was an interesting move. Especially since the 1st half of the forms is seldom the problem, you start out often enough, but I was told it improved the technique. (I am tking that with a truck load of salt though, I worked with enough kids to doubt that statement)

Then the optional sparring.

I call that a trend. But you knew that.  You have read enough stuff to notice how the art id being wittled away from. Much of it has to do with the simple fact that we are not soldiers in need of lose combat tactics, but every day Joes and Janes with day jobs and responsibilities. 
Some of the other things that are being cut you can just wonder.


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## tinker1

OP here.  US Taekwondo Center is the only school I've ever heard of doing this - hence my question to see if this is a trend, or just a business decision by GM Lee.

Some schools out in California I've heard are decreasing the amount of sparring they do because of insurance issues.  

One thing I've heard, is that (again due to insurance) when sparring, students must wear every single piece of available protective padding available.  Chest gear, head gear - possibly with face cage, foot pads, shin pads, knee pads, cup of course, hand pads, forearm pads, elbow pads...

When I was told this, I asked, can't you then just send your pads out to spar?..  You're wearing so much gear that you're practically invisible.. people must look like the Michelin Man.  LOL


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## ralphmcpherson

Ive just made some calls to friends who do Kukkiwon tkd and rhee tkd and some other independents and none have ever heard of "optional" sparring. I dont know if its just something happening in the US but its definetely not creeping in over here from what I see. My brothers live in europe and have also never heard of optional sparring, so it sounds like a very rare concept to me. Sparring is a major grading requirement in most schools so it doesnt make much sense.


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## granfire

ralphmcpherson said:


> Ive just made some calls to friends who do Kukkiwon tkd and rhee tkd and some other independents and none have ever heard of "optional" sparring. I dont know if its just something happening in the US but its definetely not creeping in over here from what I see. My brothers live in europe and have also never heard of optional sparring, so it sounds like a very rare concept to me. Sparring is a major grading requirement in most schools so it doesnt make much sense.



Dance a jig and praise the heavens 

Maybe it is just that liability issues are strangling. 
Not sure if it is really and actual issue, but the fear of getting dragged to court is stifling. 
It keeps a lot of people from doing what is right in favor of what is safe.


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## ATACX GYM

tinker1 said:


> A neighbor trains at a local TKD chain "Taekwondo Center", run by GM Sang Lee. So we discuss TKD from time to time.. his kids go there too.
> 
> Recently he told me that neither he or his kids spar, and yet they are preparing for their first Dan test. He said sparring is optional.
> 
> Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I just don't see how you can progress in the martial arts without sparring. Sure, you can learn the techniques and the forms - but without practice on a partner that's working against you, I don't see how anyone can develop any practical application experience.
> 
> He also said they don't learn much about self defense.
> 
> So... is this the way TKD schools are run these days?


 
Those are Mcdojangs as you well know,and they proliferate with alarming rapidity.I teach TKD as part of my curriculum and you can bet your roundhouse kick that you better spar with us.Lots.And use your hands AND feet.Lots. I could make lots more money than I currently am but I'm being sure to keep the quality of the instruction high by focusing on turning out qualified skilled knowledgeable clean strong of character instructors of appropriate rank (3rd dan) first. I could make a killing by marketing my approach more lucratively,but that would poison and kill the very arts that I love and which put me in this position in the first place.No thanks. Quality AND quantity for me,thanks.Quality first.



granfire said:


> Dance a jig and praise the heavens
> 
> Maybe it is just that liability issues are strangling.
> Not sure if it is really and actual issue, but the fear of getting dragged to court is stifling.
> It keeps a lot of people from doing what is right in favor of what is safe.


 

Liability issues are KILLERS for many many of us in the U.S. who're martial artists and businessmen. Especially in litigious states like my state of California.


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## ralphmcpherson

Just regarding liability issues, if students sign a form upon starting with a club declaring that they are aware of the possible injuries that can occur during sparring, plus they wear all the right protective gear and they dont spar student well above or below their level, then how can they take legal action if injured? Im not doubting they can because the world has gone mad and everybody is sueing everybody, but on what grounds do they win legally. I mean its not just MA clubs facing this problem, sports like rugby league, rugby union, cricket, soccer, american football (gridiron?) and many other sports have a high incidence of injury and would no doubt face the same problems and yet they are still able to play full contact and havent had to resort to "optional" tackling for intance. Im no lawyer, so Im just curious how this all works.


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## granfire

ralphmcpherson said:


> Just regarding liability issues, if students sign a form upon starting with a club declaring that they are aware of the possible injuries that can occur during sparring, plus they wear all the right protective gear and they dont spar student well above or below their level, then how can they take legal action if injured? Im not doubting they can because the world has gone mad and everybody is sueing everybody, but on what grounds do they win legally. I mean its not just MA clubs facing this problem, sports like rugby league, rugby union, cricket, soccer, american football (gridiron?) and many other sports have a high incidence of injury and would no doubt face the same problems and yet they are still able to play full contact and havent had to resort to "optional" tackling for intance. Im no lawyer, so Im just curious how this all works.



It depends on the state, the liability wave might not be worth the paper it's written on.

Or even if it is, you pay a fortune in fees to a lawyer to defend yourself for unfounded accusations.

It's not a MA problem, but across the board.

So many things that I experienced as a kid, a lifetime and continent away are just not smart anymore in this climate. Too many people try to blame somebody other than themselves for the problems in their lives.

That includes sparring, inviting a kid over to pet your ponies or taking your dog for a walk

Or just letting somebody on your property to cut across.

Insanity coers it pretty much to perfection.


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## ralphmcpherson

granfire said:


> It depends on the state, the liability wave might not be worth the paper it's written on.
> 
> Or even if it is, you pay a fortune in fees to a lawyer to defend yourself for unfounded accusations.
> 
> It's not a MA problem, but across the board.
> 
> So many things that I experienced as a kid, a lifetime and continent away are just not smart anymore in this climate. Too many people try to blame somebody other than themselves for the problems in their lives.
> 
> That includes sparring, inviting a kid over to pet your ponies or taking your dog for a walk
> 
> Or just letting somebody on your property to cut across.
> 
> Insanity coers it pretty much to perfection.


I agree, everybody just blames everybody else and tries to profit out of it. I just wonder why other contact sports are not just surviving but actaully flourishing currently. Junior numbers for league, union, AFL etc are all on the rise yet these are all full contact sports where usually one pretty major injury will occur each game and yet martial arts seems to have to be the odd one out and has to try to eradicate contact because of legal reasons despite the fact that major injuries occur a lot less in MA. I played league and union for 15 years and I could write a book on all the injuries I got and yet in my years of MA doing full cotact sparring I have suffered nowhere near the injuries sustained in other sports and yet we seem to be the ones concerned with "legal" ramifications.


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## puunui

granfire said:


> It depends on the state, the liability wave might not be worth the paper it's written on. Or even if it is, you pay a fortune in fees to a lawyer to defend yourself for unfounded accusations.



If you have insurance, then you would forward the claim to the insurance company and they would take the steps necessary to defend and indemnify you. No difference really than if you rear ended someone in your car and the other side filed a claim or even a lawsuit against you. Different type of insurance, but the process is the same.


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## mastercole

tinker1 said:


> OP here.  US Taekwondo Center is the only school I've ever heard of doing this - hence my question to see if this is a trend, or just a business decision by GM Lee.
> 
> Some schools out in California I've heard are decreasing the amount of sparring they do because of insurance issues.
> 
> One thing I've heard, is that (again due to insurance) when sparring, students must wear every single piece of available protective padding available.  Chest gear, head gear - possibly with face cage, foot pads, shin pads, knee pads, cup of course, hand pads, forearm pads, elbow pads...
> 
> When I was told this, I asked, can't you then just send your pads out to spar?..  You're wearing so much gear that you're practically invisible.. people must look like the Michelin Man.  LOL




From about 1992 until roughly around 2004 I ran my dojangs as sparring gyms.  No Poomsae, grabs, very little breaking. I was in a city that bordered a tough area of Cleveland, parents and students wanted intense training.  Eventually that city went down the tubes. I then opened in upper-mid class suburbs.  I encountered a very different type of customer, most of which were not into getting hit, at all.  So you smarten up.  Now I run my general classes for paying customers in 30 minute segments.  Example:

6:00pm - 6:30pm  Poomsae
6:30pm - 7:00pm  Kwonbop
7:00pm - 7:30pm  Athletic Development
7:30pm - 8:00pm  Kyorugi concepts (not actual sparring, the science of how to spar)

Everyone has an option to skip any class, and take as many as they like.

Also keep in mind that all my classes have become family classes, meaning all ranks, all ages train together.  80% of my students now are together on the floor with their family.

This is radically different from how it was in the 80's and 90's, even early 2000's.

However, when we see a stand out student, one who really wants to train hard, we invite them to special weekend workout sessions that are not on the schedule, invitation only and usually run over two hours and are very intense and is all based around sparring.  So we still have a cadre of fighters who train very serious, I just never mix them in with the general student population, I don't want to scare the heck out of my customers.


----------



## granfire

puunui said:


> If you have insurance, then you would forward the claim to the insurance company and they would take the steps necessary to defend and indemnify you. No difference really than if you rear ended someone in your car and the other side filed a claim or even a lawsuit against you. Different type of insurance, but the process is the same.



And the insurance comes back to recoup their costs: Your rates go up.


----------



## Balrog

tinker1 said:


> A neighbor trains at a local TKD chain "Taekwondo Center", run by GM Sang Lee.  So we discuss TKD from time to time.. his kids go there too.
> 
> Recently he told me that neither he or his kids spar, and yet they are preparing for their first Dan test.  He said sparring is optional.
> 
> Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I just don't see how you can progress in the martial arts without sparring.  Sure, you can learn the techniques and the forms - but without practice on a partner that's working against you, I don't see how anyone can develop any practical application experience.
> 
> He also said they don't learn much about self defense.
> 
> So... is this the way TKD schools are run these days?


Not my school, at least.

We do one-steps for the first six months to get the students used to the concepts of timing, distancing and control against a live target.  After that, we put on the gear and have at it.  It's a testing requirement from then on.


----------



## ATACX GYM

mastercole said:


> From about 1992 until roughly around 2004 I ran my dojangs as sparring gyms. No Poomsae, grabs, very little breaking. I was in a city that bordered a tough area of Cleveland, parents and students wanted intense training. Eventually that city went down the tubes. I then opened in upper-mid class suburbs. I encountered a very different type of customer, most of which were not into getting hit, at all. So you smarten up. Now I run my general classes for paying customers in 30 minute segments. Example:
> 
> 6:00pm - 6:30pm Poomsae
> 6:30pm - 7:00pm Kwonbop
> 7:00pm - 7:30pm Athletic Development
> 7:30pm - 8:00pm Kyorugi concepts (not actual sparring, the science of how to spar)
> 
> Everyone has an option to skip any class, and take as many as they like.
> 
> Also keep in mind that all my classes have become family classes, meaning all ranks, all ages train together. 80% of my students now are together on the floor with their family.
> 
> This is radically different from how it was in the 80's and 90's, even early 2000's.
> 
> However, when we see a stand out student, one who really wants to train hard, we invite them to special weekend workout sessions that are not on the schedule, invitation only and usually run over two hours and are very intense and is all based around sparring. So we still have a cadre of fighters who train very serious, I just never mix them in with the general student population, I don't want to scare the heck out of my customers.


 

This is VERY much close to my personal experience.It's ASTOUNDING to me that someone would come to a martial art and NOT expect to be hit or to hit someone.That's like playing American football and NOT expecting to be tackled,or going into a boxing ring and not expecting to be punched.

I live in Long Beach CA,and the areas that I live in are rough and contiguous to other rough areas.I actually like it here...the people (while some of them can get rambunctious and rowdy) are much more straightforward. They want the real deal impact martial arts.Unfortunately,they can't pay that much at all but what they CAN pay? They will.For the most part,anyway.

Right next to my house--I mean a ten minute walk TOPS--is a beautiful artsy area known as East Village or The Village.Lots of artistic types there...musicians,yoga,artists of all stripes and caliber,tony clothing shops,environmental awareness pervades everything from store products to vehicles,antique shops,wonderful schools,the works.

A brace of Villagers came by to my class one time because I participated in a capoeira roda hosted by my capoeira mestre and they loved how I moved,and kept asking me why my movements were sharply different even than my mestre's movements,and my response was:"I actually fight with my techniques.I make contact.I approach capoeira as the martial art it is FIRST,and the artistic cultural expression SECOND." They were all smiles and nods and "Yeah that's COOL" when I verbalized my position to them.

They came by,and one of my students--Vanessa--caught a street kid and gang member named Dino (pronounced "Dean-o") with a hard side kick to his thigh,then feinted low with the lead side kick,popped him across the jaw and stomach with a jumping high side kick-back kick combination (complete with a loup kiyap,you shoulda seen the startle reflex of passersby lolol),and when he hit the ground she stomped on his thigh,front kicked his chest again and when he grabbed her leg with his arms? She spun into an armbar. He tapped.Took maybe 5 seconds top to bottom.Regular stuff,right?

All of The Villagers were like:"OOOHHHHH!!" and 2 of them (a guy and a girl) seemed ready to take the next step and join my class.But one of them--a strawberry blond--looked me dead in the eye and said:"I'd sue your *** if that happened to me." The remaining 5-6 Villagers who weren't the guy and the girl plying me with questions about class fees and schedules were like:"yeeeaaaahhh that looks ****in hardcore,I could get hurt..."

Jesus Christ. What is this...Diary of A Bunch Of Wimpy Adults?

Somebody asked earlier about the proliferation and thriving of contact sports like American football,basketball (lotsa body contact when jockeying for position under the hoop),boxing and the like. The answer is? In THOSE sports, a lot more people are EXPECTING high contact level. In fact? The contact level tends to drive the kinds of people who like contact to them.Same with bjj and judo and Muay Thai kickboxing (NOT cardio kickboxing,I said MUAY THAI) etc. But there's been such a marketing emphasis on "you can do this and not get hit" regarding martial arts like taekwondo,kenpo,shaolin kempo,etc.--the Mcdojangification of TKD in short--that the expectations of parents are NOT AT ALL in accordance with what the martial reality of an art like TKD is.If you think Johnny shouldn't learn boxing because he might get punched in the face? Well hey TKD is gonna KICK Johnny in the face.Maybe you and Johnny need to spray yourselves with a heavy dose of "Wimp Begone" aerosol,buckle down and get in there.

Remember when I said that I could make a killing if I diluted my martial arts training and made it oriented toward money and fitness? I could go from my mere 15-20 or so Gym students to about 120 in 4 months and about 200 in about a year if I emphasized my fitness and noncontact training methods over the contact aspects. Imagine Taebo with alot more Tae in it,along with sport specific drills that get you in good shape fast...and imagine how much confidence you'd have in your newfound fitness.Yaaaayyy you.Then Bad Guy Number Nine sees that you have cool stuff and you're fit but you have VICTIM stamped on your forehead? And you're the next disappeared person we see on TV. Not with me,folks. I know for a fact that every single one of my students can defend themselves AND they're in TERRIFIC shape.They do better in school,socially,at work,and Lord help any BG that rolls on them on the street.This is invaluable to me.It cannot be bought or purchased or bartered.

Remember those news stories of "black belts" being killed in h2h combat by some criminal or the times we've seen on the news "black belts" being killed or badly injured by some knife wielding miscreant? Remember that time a few years back in California that black belt saw a group of guys beating on a guy and his gf and tried to intervene and got badly beaten for it? I recall numerous news shoes of female "black belts" being robbed beaten RAPED and sometimes murdered. Now...how would you like to be the instructor whose methods failed to keep your students safe under those circumstances? What impact do you think it would have on your school,your business' reputation,on YOUR reputation? And just as horrific,what if you go the other way and become some kind of modern day Kobra-Kai Quicksilver dude from Karate Kid 3? 

No thanks. I have to sleep at night. I have to look at myself in the morning,and I need to like that guy looking back at me in the mirror because he's everything he says he is and even when he fails? He's trying to do what he thinks is right more times than not. I have children. I swear to God I'd machete chop somebody who sold my kid a bill of goods that got them hurt or killed...and I paid $10,000 dollars for over the years from their progression from white to black and their tournaments and gear and T-shirts and patches and videos and stuff. It'd be machete time too if some fool turned my kid into a brutal fighting machine victimizing others at a whim.(Of course,I teach my kids martial arts,so this doesn't apply to me personally...)

Bottom line? When it's crunch time,your students need to not be the ones getting crunched.The way to span the gap between the "no contact" types and the "full on" self defense practitioners would be to introduce combat drills with light to moderate contact (like mitt work drills and kicking drills and paddle drills that combine kicking and punching and realistic movement) because these drills also tend to foster (as the student participates in it) a more aggressive mindset. Imagine if you took a drill like this:

http://youtu.be/DdF-iHrQuKA


combined it with a drill like this:

http://youtu.be/Dd5B-KBe6eQ

And keep it all through progressive Aliveness,introduction of the tech,isolation of the tech so you can get good with it,then integration of the tech into the rest of your arsenal.Principly something like this in concept:

http://youtu.be/imjmLWj5WCU

and let the person holding the paddle throw a punch and kick back at their partner say at head and body level of their partner kicking the paddles but only at half speed? And you had to block them? I've been doing this for more than a decade now. Even the noncontact people would be able to deal with that. This cultivates a more realistic mindset that in a month or two translates rather easily into stepped up drills and then to sparring and even successfully fighting against the average (untrained) street thug.It's safe,fun,a terrific workout,nobody gets hurt but everybody has o defend against shots coming back at you...and you build their confidence so that they eventually WILL spar.Even when they don't know they're doing it.Lol. Same thing with weapons training. Give them combative drills with hard padded weapons,and after a month or two of gradually stepping it up? They'll be ready for light to moderate contact. About 2 months of light contact and they'll be able to pick it up even more.

But even if they DON'T want to pick it up and want to stay light to moderate contact with stepped up drills? They will have the experience,the conditioning and sparring background to defend themselves vs an attack much better than if they hadn't.They'll also be in 3 times better shape than previously,and their mindsets will be purged of the rampant cowardice that prevents them from looking deeply within their own souls and rooting out this senseless fear of contact...and realize that they're MUCH BETTER FOR THE EXPERIENCE. If you can convert say 5 of the previously "noncontact" crowd into the "contact" crowd? They'll bring over more and more of the "noncontact" butterflies.

This is the approach I'm currently fine tuning as an acceptable alternative,a bridge,between us old skool genuine self-defense oriented,life long martial artists and those newbies who are of the "air jump rope" crowd; the "noncontact" crowd.


----------



## mastercole

ATACX GYM said:


> Remember when I said that I could make a killing if I diluted my martial arts training and made it oriented toward money and fitness? I could go from my mere 15-20 or so Gym students to about 120 in 4 months and about 200 in about a year if I emphasized my fitness and noncontact training methods over the contact aspects.



You should make a user friendly version that is completely safe and that everyone can do. Guess what will happen?   Those 15 -20 hard core students will double because now you will have a larger pool of customers from which to find your potential students.  Otherwise those customers will go down the street to some McDojo that does not have a hard core training option. Train hard core folks separate from regular folks.

Also, a few folks that come in for fun and recreation just might want to try the hard core class, and some might like it.

As for SD for regular and hard core folks I tell them all the same thing. 1. avoid trouble.  If that don't work, kids get advise from your parents on what to do, they pay your legal bills. Adults what I would do is incapacitate the attacker if necessary and escape, but you should consult an attorney 

That's what I do.


----------



## granfire

mastercole said:


> You should make a user friendly version that is completely safe and that everyone can do. Guess what will happen?   Those 15 -20 hard core students will double because now you will have a larger pool of customers from which to find your potential students.  Otherwise those customers will go down the street to some McDojo that does not have a hard core training option. Train hard core folks separate from regular folks.
> 
> Also, a few folks that come in for fun and recreation just might want to try the hard core class, and some might like it.
> 
> As for SD for regular and hard core folks I tell them all the same thing. 1. avoid trouble.  If that don't work, kids get advise from your parents on what to do, they pay your legal bills. Adults what I would do is incapacitate the attacker if necessary and escape, but you should consult an attorney
> 
> That's what I do.




No he won't.

The hardcore people will drift away feeling cheated.


----------



## puunui

granfire said:


> Then the optional sparring. I call that a trend. But you knew that.  You have read enough stuff to notice how the art id being wittled away from. Much of it has to do with the simple fact that we are not soldiers in need of lose combat tactics, but every day Joes and Janes with day jobs and responsibilities.




I might have known it, but chrispillertkd needed to hear it from you.


----------



## granfire

puunui said:


> I might have known it, but chrispillertkd needed to hear it from you.




I think he heard what I had to say loud and clear the first time I said it. 
I think you needed the confirmation more than he did.


----------



## puunui

granfire said:


> The hardcore people will drift away feeling cheated.



So what do you do if you are a commerical dojang owner, cater to the 15-20 hardcore people or the 300-600 non-hardcore? And which hard core, hard core self defense or hard core competitors?


----------



## puunui

granfire said:


> I think you needed the confirmation more than he did.




I know what's going on out there. You even said so.  It doesn't take much to see where things are going. Things have been heading in that direction for a long time, wouldn't you agree?


----------



## TaekwondoDad

mastercole said:


> From about 1992 until roughly around 2004 I ran my dojangs as sparring gyms. No Poomsae, grabs, very little breaking. I was in a city that bordered a tough area of Cleveland, parents and students wanted intense training. Eventually that city went down the tubes. I then opened in upper-mid class suburbs. I encountered a very different type of customer, most of which were not into getting hit, at all. So you smarten up. Now I run my general classes for paying customers in 30 minute segments. Example:
> 
> 6:00pm - 6:30pm Poomsae
> 6:30pm - 7:00pm Kwonbop
> 7:00pm - 7:30pm Athletic Development
> 7:30pm - 8:00pm Kyorugi concepts (not actual sparring, the science of how to spar)
> 
> Everyone has an option to skip any class, and take as many as they like.
> 
> Also keep in mind that all my classes have become family classes, meaning all ranks, all ages train together. 80% of my students now are together on the floor with their family.
> 
> This is radically different from how it was in the 80's and 90's, even early 2000's.
> 
> However, when we see a stand out student, one who really wants to train hard, we invite them to special weekend workout sessions that are not on the schedule, invitation only and usually run over two hours and are very intense and is all based around sparring. So we still have a cadre of fighters who train very serious, I just never mix them in with the general student population, I don't want to scare the heck out of my customers.


 

Master Cole,

This surprises me.  From everything I'd heard, you still have a reputation as being a sparring school


----------



## ATACX GYM

mastercole said:


> You should make a user friendly version that is completely safe and that everyone can do. Guess what will happen? Those 15 -20 hard core students will double because now you will have a larger pool of customers from which to find your potential students. Otherwise those customers will go down the street to some McDojo that does not have a hard core training option. Train hard core folks separate from regular folks.
> 
> Also, a few folks that come in for fun and recreation just might want to try the hard core class, and some might like it.
> 
> As for SD for regular and hard core folks I tell them all the same thing. 1. avoid trouble. If that don't work, kids get advise from your parents on what to do, they pay your legal bills. Adults what I would do is incapacitate the attacker if necessary and escape, but you should consult an attorney
> 
> That's what I do.


 
I very much respect your thoughts and opinions on this matter,Master Cole. I'm aware that your schools are a financial success and I definitely want that,and it's my understanding that your school is a sparring school...or has been for so long that you still bear the reputation of a sparring school. My questions are: How can I make drills that are completely safe and will attract the hundred or so students that are in the area (mostly kids) but won't compromise the self-defense aspects or my hardcore students? I'm thinking that I may offer programs that offer more of the emphasis on the calisthenics,rolls,jumps drills and poomsae as an option (ATHLETIKICK or something,lol). And maybe have a demo team too...along with our already feared fight team. But...there has to be a corresponding justification for the hardcore athletes to even attend a school like that,ESPECIALLY if the reason that they came in the first place is BECAUSE it's hardcore. These hardcore students are EXTRA LOYAL too,whereas the fitness types? Not so much.




puunui said:


> So what do you do if you are a commerical dojang owner, cater to the 15-20 hardcore people or the 300-600 non-hardcore? And which hard core, hard core self defense or hard core competitors?


 

The hard core competitiors and self-defense peeps are pretty much the same crowd...with basically more weapons play and more lethal options in the self-defense crowd that the competitiors appreciate too,just not as much as the competition circuit. The converse is true from the self-defense crowd. They are few and far between,but these are the people who will be my black belts and instructors who will proliferate THE ATACX GYM martial style (along with my kids).

The problem is? We need the financial security of the 300-600 non-hardcore crowd of people. I can get these people in shape quite easily,but I don't want to sacrifice the people who've been there through thick and thin with me in order to cater to a crowd that IS a crowd with all of the financial importance thereof...but they're a revolving door crowd.They're wimpier. They're more litigious by far. They'll stay for like 2-3 belts and then lose their interest...not because it's not interesting but because they're not staying long enough to develope the fortitude to stick it through to instructor rank. 

Cardio kickboxing and stuff will still getcha butt kicked. Those programs fit better in places like Bally's which don't intrinsically carry the mandate for self-defense within the title of what they do but we martial artists DO carry such a mandate,imho.If we offer such an option? I think that it should be welded with at least light impact real world self defense,even if we have to trick the clientele into doing so via drills that ALSO get you in terrific shape. Master Cole,in your opinion,would such an approach work? I've done it but only with the "hardcore" crowd. All I know is that I absolutely absolutely absolutely AB-SO-LUUUTELY canNOT be that guy who taught his students "martial FITNESS" instead of martial ARTS and have my students get hurt or worse on the street because they can't defend themselves. This is my absolute nightmare.


----------



## mastercole

granfire said:


> No he won't.
> 
> The hardcore people will drift away feeling cheated.



That has not been my experience.  

The hard core training folks love the nice training facility and all that extra cash to go train in other states, and other countries with other like minded people.  And they feel very special knowing that they are part of an elite few.


----------



## mastercole

puunui said:


> So what do you do if you are a commerical dojang owner, cater to the 15-20 hardcore people or the 300-600 non-hardcore? And which hard core, hard core self defense or hard core competitors?



I cater to both to small boat vehicle people and the large boat vehicle people.

I also explain to the self defense crowd, with a fist to the jaw and a foot to the face that enlightenment is found in the companionship of hard core competitors    Hard core self defense and hard core competition is one in the same.


----------



## mastercole

TaekwondoDad said:


> Master Cole,
> 
> This surprises me.  From everything I'd heard, you still have a reputation as being a sparring school



Families love Taekwondo and pretty much it's all families that join these days, which is great. So we have to present Taekwondo in a way that is beneficial for families. Some of those family members are beginning to train in the weekend sessions, which is amazing.

But like I said, we still have intense hard sparring training every weekend, but that is not on a printed schedule.


----------



## granfire

mastercole said:


> That has not been my experience.
> 
> The hard core training folks love the nice training facility and all that extra cash to go train in other states, and other countries with other like minded people.  And they feel very special knowing that they are part of an elite few.




I suppose it depends on the market.


----------



## mastercole

ATACX GYM said:


> How can I make drills that are completely safe and will attract the hundred or so students that are in the area (mostly kids) but won't compromise the self-defense aspects or my hardcore students?



Teach everything the correct way, just start off "lite", make it fun. Make sure everyone is progressing and sees their progress, even if is just a little at a time. But teach them in a way that the cross over to more intense training will be an easy transition.  Do not compromise techniques

Then after a bit of time, you can identify those that want to train intense.  Give them a special invitation to special training, trust me, they will feel very honored that you invited them.

From there, you can create other groups. 

It's not rocket science.


----------



## mastercole

granfire said:


> I suppose it depends on the market.



I have discovered that all of my hard core training types, from various markets -- from the hood to mansions --  really love using the latest powerair water bags, speed bag platforms, boxing and muay thai mitts, talyoon-bong post, training with electronic hogus, training with elite fighter we bring into our school for months to years long sessions, traveling around the country and to other countries. 

No one has complained yet.


----------



## Twin Fist

ANY martial art school that doesnt spar is a rip off that is NOT teaching self defense

period.


----------



## mastercole

Twin Fist said:


> ANY martial art school that doesnt spar is a rip off that is NOT teaching self defense
> 
> period.



How about this. Any person, martial art instructors especially, who claims to teach self defense, sparring or not, is likely a rip off.


----------



## ATACX GYM

mastercole said:


> I have discovered that all of my hard core training types, from various markets -- from the hood to mansions -- really love using the latest powerair water bags, speed bag platforms, boxing and muay thai mitts, talyoon-bong post, training with electronic hogus, training with elite fighter we bring into our school for months to years long sessions, traveling around the country and to other countries.
> 
> No one has complained yet.


 

HAHAHAHAHAHA!! WELL SAID!! +2,Master Cole!


----------



## puunui

mastercole said:


> talyoon-bong post



I'm reading GM PARK Won Chik's book, "Grandmaster", and he calls it Talyon Ki. Never heard that term before. Kwon Go and Talyon Bong, but not Talyon Ki.


----------



## granfire

mastercole said:


> I have discovered that all of my hard core training types, from various markets -- from the hood to mansions --  really love using the latest powerair water bags, speed bag platforms, boxing and muay thai mitts, talyoon-bong post, training with electronic hogus, training with elite fighter we bring into our school for months to years long sessions, traveling around the country and to other countries.
> 
> No one has complained yet.



what?


----------



## mastercole

puunui said:


> I'm reading GM PARK Won Chik's book, "Grandmaster", and he calls it Talyon Ki. Never heard that term before. Kwon Go and Talyon Bong, but not Talyon Ki.



I never heard of that.  Sounds like forging technique, or forging skill.


----------



## ATACX GYM

mastercole said:


> Families love Taekwondo and pretty much it's all families that join these days, which is great. So we have to present Taekwondo in a way that is beneficial for families. Some of those family members are beginning to train in the weekend sessions, which is amazing.
> 
> But like I said, we still have intense hard sparring training every weekend, but that is not on a printed schedule.


 

Do you mean Friday-Saturday weekend or Saturday weekend? Are the hardcore clientele satisfied with training primarily 1-2/week? Or do they have a special hardcore training class during the week separate from the cake and ice cream crowd?


----------



## shima

Twin Fist said:


> ANY martial art school that doesnt spar is a rip off that is NOT teaching self defense
> 
> period.



So true. While figuring out what style at which dojo I wanted to study out here in the SF Bay Area, I visited one okinawan karate school because all of my karate forms matched the ones they do at their school and therefore keeping my current rank without having to start over would have been doable.... visited the school, watched a class... talked to the owner about the schedule and class options... learned that they don't spar, at all. Never went back there. Went to my current kenpo school I signed up at to visit, they didn't make me watch a class, they let me try a class... worked out with them, asked about sparring, saw their faces light up, made sure they wouldn't make me wear a chest protector during sparring (my last school, a tae kwon do school, did this and I hated it) saw their faces light up even more as they told me they don't allow the students to wear chest guards... knew I was home


----------



## Archtkd

shima said:


> Went to my current kenpo school I signed up at to visit, they didn't make me watch a class, they let me try a class... worked out with them, asked about sparring, saw their faces light up, made sure they wouldn't make me wear a chest protector during sparring (my last school, a tae kwon do school, did this and I hated it) saw their faces light up even more as they told me they don't allow the students to wear chest guards... knew I was home


 
I'm sure there's a Kenpo forum on MT where the above might make more sense.

I don't know anything about Kenpo but not wearing a hogu in  a Kukkiwon style Taekwondo school during sparring usually means no serious sparring is taking place. Some folks might think otherwise, but a chestguard is not a piece of bling that Taekwondoin wear to show off, or use as a sweat inducer. It's a serious component of protective equipment, which saves ribs from fracture or worse. It's won because some hardworking Taekwondo experts, scientists and sports technology gurus spent years doing research on it's utility  and efficacy.


----------



## Twin Fist

never worn one, never will, no one really does besides the wtf and the ata

that will let you know something right there.......


----------



## mastercole

ATACX GYM said:


> Do you mean Friday-Saturday weekend or Saturday weekend? Are the hardcore clientele satisfied with training primarily 1-2/week? Or do they have a special hardcore training class during the week separate from the cake and ice cream crowd?



Actually I am not very involved in this anymore.  I just watch and shut up 

My youngest son, who is now 21 is in charge of this group. He is on fire for competition and I do what I can to support his interest. My strict rules are though to keep it away from our regular students.  So he is free to schedule these sessions as his whim.  The way he does it is he has everyone cell number in his phone and he text them his plan or the week. He usually schedules it around other things, but mostly Monday & Wednesday at his dojang from like 8 pm ish to 10pm ish.  Tuesday and Thursday he runs the beach in the morning, about 3 miles and does waterbag, footwork, jump rope and talyoonbong training in the afternoon, then teaches classes at his brothers dojang.  Friday, Saturday and Sunday he usually schedules from 6pm to 8-8:30pm ish.  Friday will be athletic drills and hogu drills, then only promise sparring, Saturday warm up, paddles/shields, promise sparring then full equipment sparring, Sunday warm up, promise sparring and full equipment sparring.

He has adapted his training style to pretty much match the training style of Yong In Universities current Taekwondo Team.  We had Yong In's elite Welter weight, Seo, Min Jae living at our home all last summer, Min Jae introduced these changes.


----------



## ATACX GYM

mastercole said:


> Actually I am not very involved in this anymore. I just watch and shut up
> 
> My youngest son, who is now 21 is in charge of this group. He is on fire for competition and I do what I can to support his interest. My strict rules are though to keep it away from our regular students. So he is free to schedule these sessions as his whim. The way he does it is he has everyone cell number in his phone and he text them his plan or the week. He usually schedules it around other things, but mostly Monday & Wednesday at his dojang from like 8 pm ish to 10pm ish. Tuesday and Thursday he runs the beach in the morning, about 3 miles and does waterbag, footwork, jump rope and talyoonbong training in the afternoon, then teaches classes at his brothers dojang. Friday, Saturday and Sunday he usually schedules from 6pm to 8-8:30pm ish. Friday will be athletic drills and hogu drills, then only promise sparring, Saturday warm up, paddles/shields, promise sparring then full equipment sparring, Sunday warm up, promise sparring and full equipment sparring.
> 
> He has adapted his training style to pretty much match the training style of Yong In Universities current Taekwondo Team. We had Yong In's elite Welter weight, Seo, Min Jae living at our home all last summer, Min Jae introduced these changes.


 
That is MAGNIFICENT,Master Cole! Lolol. Thank you very much for the information!


----------



## mastercole

Archtkd said:


> I'm sure there's a Kenpo forum on MT where the above might make more sense.
> 
> I don't know anything about Kenpo but not wearing a hogu in  a Kukkiwon style Taekwondo school during sparring usually means no serious sparring is taking place. Some folks might think otherwise, but a chestguard is not a piece of bling that Taekwondoin wear to show off, or use as a sweat inducer. It's a serious component of protective equipment, which saves ribs from fracture or worse. It's won because some hardworking Taekwondo experts, scientists and sports technology gurus spent years doing research on it's utility  and efficacy.



Even with the hogu on, many Taekwondoin have had broken ribs and body knockouts, the strikes are full force, full contact.  It does not provide that much protection, and actually, it was not originally so much designed with protection in mind as the hogu was designed to be a surface (cloth and bamboo) to strike with the bare hand and bare foot to simulate self defense.


----------



## mastercole

Twin Fist said:


> never worn one, never will, no one really does besides the wtf and the ata
> 
> that will let you know something right there.......



You should try it sometime, you might change your mind.

You think no one wears a hogu but WTF and ATA?  

Hapkido, World Karate Federation, Muay Thai, Kendo and Wushu have all adopted the hogu.


----------



## Twin Fist

kendo uses a solid chest protector dont they?

didnt know about the others, dont care, never used one, never needed one, wont ever use one.

wont have it on the streets......


----------



## Earl Weiss

Twin Fist said:


> kendo uses a solid chest protector dont they?
> 
> didnt know about the others, dont care, never used one, never needed one, wont ever use one.
> 
> wont have it on the streets......


 
I'm with you on the no hogu deal. Used to feel the same about headgear until I learned it's not so much to protect the head from the kick or punch as it is to protect the head if you go down hard from that sudden stop when it hits the floor. Also use mouth guards,cups,  and hand and foot gear. So, the "won't have it on the streets" is a non starter AFAIAC.

Do you use any sparring gear?


----------



## Twin Fist

hands and feet, never use a mouth piece or headgear.

about 50/50 on the cup.


----------



## mastercole

Twin Fist said:


> kendo uses a solid chest protector dont they?
> 
> didnt know about the others, dont care, never used one, never needed one, wont ever use one.
> 
> wont have it on the streets......



Oh, OK, I see, your a street fighter.  Nice.


----------



## Twin Fist

no, a martial artist that trains for the street, not tournaments


----------



## Archtkd

mastercole said:


> Even with the hogu on, many Taekwondoin have had broken ribs and body knockouts, the strikes are full force, full contact. It does not provide that much protection, and actually, it was not originally so much designed with protection in mind as the hogu was designed to be a surface (cloth and bamboo) to strike with the bare hand and bare foot to simulate self defense.


 
We once used a plastic cover and bamboo stuff hogus in Kenya. The newer competition hogus offer a little more protection -- depending on how they are strapped and type of blow -- than those old ones, even though they are lighter and more comfortable to wear.


----------



## ATACX GYM

Twin Fist said:


> hands and feet, never use a mouth piece or headgear.
> 
> about 50/50 on the cup.


 

I used to think that sparring with a hogu on was pretty funny and stupid,hahaha,I used to laugh at those guys.Hahaha.

Then a 50 year old Hapkido,TKD,Hung Gar and HRD Grandmaster by the name of Grandmaster Chu kicked me in the chest after I belittled the notion of wearing a hogu.Never saw his foot move.Blew me off of my feet, flew a couple of feet airborne,hit the ground and rolled over in a involuntary backward roll like a gymnast.Air gone from my lungs.Eyes glassy.

And he'd taken it easy on me.

I started wearing the hogu whenever I was sparring hard with Korean style kicking masters.Happily. I even started employing it for body punches and body work in my Kenpo and boxing.

Now I'm the one kicking people who blithely and ignorantly diss the wearing of the hogu.

Now...with the former Olympians who I train my kicking technique with...it's a vital piece of equipment. I wouldn't leave it off if I was sparring with high contact multiple opponents.I've sparred quite a bit without it,but those kicks were lighter contact blows.More technical sessions.And very illustrative of what would happen on the street with zero equipment.Those kicks are even faster and harder to defend against in street combat.In close quarters.And yes your head can and will be kicked all of the way off if you make one small misstep. I can happily say that my head's avoided being kicked for years now...but I've had too many close calls of the "WHEW I juuuuuust avoided THAT one!" variety to denigrate or underestimate the kicking prowess and thus the protective gear of TKD and similar kicking styles.I have a dan in tang soo do too.Heads roll there too for the same reasons.


----------



## puunui

ATACX GYM said:


> Now...with the former Olympians who I train my kicking technique with...it's a vital piece of equipment.




That's the real value of a hogu, as a vital piece of training equipment. No other gear really allows you to train both kicks and punches to the body with light, medium or full contact against a live, moving target at actual real distance. It's not about sparring with a hogu so much as it is doing hogu drills with the hogu.


----------



## Earl Weiss

puunui said:


> That's the real value of a hogu, as a vital piece of training equipment. No other gear really allows you to train both kicks and punches to the body with light, medium or full contact against a live, moving target at actual real distance. It's not about sparring with a hogu so much as it is doing hogu drills with the hogu.


 
I could definitely see it as a piece of training equipment if I were going to let someone kick me full blast. We typicaly use kicking "Shields" for this type of training. I wasn't holding it as I should have once and the student missed and hit me. For a time I thought I was headed for the hospital. Took 2 months to heal. 

Have seen some MMA trainers use similar equipment.


----------



## tinker1

Add me to the list that dislikes the Hogu (chest guard).  Maybe they make them better these days.. but they were a pain to wear way back when.

I never used one that I didn't feel like the pilsbury doe boy while wearing it.  They were probably too long or something, because whenever I would lift my knee to throw a kick, the entire pad would lift up and run into my jaw.

The padded ones were so thick that it was practically impossible to get your elbows together to block your mid section.  Actually for me it's hard on my arm mobility.  The bamboo ones were better in that regard as they were thinner.

Too hot... I sweat buckets when wearing them.  Very uncomfortable.  For me, I've found that wearing chest gear slows me down and makes me feel awkward when I spar.

I haven't worn one in YEARS.. decades actually..  Anyway, back when I was using them, most of us purchased VERY SMALL sizes.. some even went to kid sizes, just to keep the size and bulkiness of the gear from interfering with our sparring techniques.

I think that wearing the chest gear has an impact on the defense aspect of sparring.  First, as I said, your arms are hampered in their movement. And second, there is less consequence with getting whacked with a kick or punch.

On a bit of a tangent here though.

I was thinking in general terms of wearing padding.  I'm sure some here remember the days when you couldn't buy protective gear for karate.  The first I saw of it was back in (thinking..) about 1975 or 1976.. Joon Rhee made it.

Prior to that, if we wanted gear we made it ourselves.  Master Long showed us how to use varicose vein sox along with a cut piece of high density foam.  Back then we would use more aspects of our hands than just the knuckles.. and there really wasn't any boxing type pad or wrap that would work for us.

At tournaments, you would usually see 2 or 3 knock outs.. as you would expect when going full speed against an opponent.  Even if you were trying to stop just short with your back fist, your opponent would rush in unexpectedly and wham.. down he'd go.  It happened all the time.  Broken ribs, kicks to the groin.. it was rough, but we all knew what we were getting into, and we knew how to block.

Then after Joon Rhee's gear became popular, they started letting it be used in tournaments - eventually it became required of course.  I remember the first tournament I was in after the gear was allowed..  It was a frigging blood bath.  It was as if every one thought.. gee.. I have these cool pads, now I can smack people as hard as I want.

So we went from a controlled contact environment were SOME were hurt.. to a raging blood bath were people were getting carried out on stretchers.

Oh well.  Sorry for the rumination and thread jack.


----------



## Twin Fist

not the first time i have heard that gear destroyed the concept of focused control.


----------



## puunui

Earl Weiss said:


> I could definitely see it as a piece of training equipment if I were going to let someone kick me full blast. We typicaly use kicking "Shields" for this type of training.



Depends on what type of shield but it could hamper mobility of the pad holder. Do you move around when holding the shield, or stay in one place? Once you get the hang of "holding" the hogu for your partner, then the drills are only limited by your imagination. For realistic impact, recovery after the kick, steps, movement, distance and timing, there really is no better way to train, at least for kicking. Hogu drills is where it's at.


----------



## ATACX GYM

puunui said:


> Depends on what type of shield but it could hamper mobility of the pad holder. Do you move around when holding the shield, or stay in one place? Once you get the hang of "holding" the hogu for your partner, then the drills are only limited by your imagination. For realistic impact, recovery after the kick, steps, movement, distance and timing, there really is no better way to train, at least for kicking. Hogu drills is where it's at.


 

I absolutely agree.We have a gaillion jillion drills using this piece of equipment. In combo with airshields focus mitts and MT pads plus striking back at your opponent with kicks and punches and everything? You have an incredibly intense workout that's very veeerrry realistic. You can use it for continuous body blows in boxing,you can use it MMA and SD style...the works. We even use it when sparring with weapons but want moderate contact,instead of full contact. It was cool.


----------



## mastercole

shima said:


> So true. While figuring out what style at which dojo I wanted to study out here in the SF Bay Area, I visited one okinawan karate school because all of my karate forms matched the ones they do at their school and therefore keeping my current rank without having to start over would have been doable.... visited the school, watched a class... talked to the owner about the schedule and class options... learned that they don't spar, at all. Never went back there. Went to my current kenpo school I signed up at to visit, they didn't make me watch a class, they let me try a class... worked out with them, asked about sparring, saw their faces light up, made sure they wouldn't make me wear a chest protector during sparring (my last school, a tae kwon do school, did this and I hated it) saw their faces light up even more as they told me they don't allow the students to wear chest guards... knew I was home



When there is no full force, full contact strikes to the body allowed, you don't need a hogu (chest gear)


----------



## mastercole

Earl Weiss said:


> I could definitely see it as a piece of training equipment if I were going to let someone kick me full blast. We typicaly use kicking "Shields" for this type of training. I wasn't holding it as I should have once and the student missed and hit me. For a time I thought I was headed for the hospital. Took 2 months to heal.
> 
> Have seen some MMA trainers use similar equipment.



The problem with the kicking shield is that it is in a different place, held out at least a foot or more from the body line.  So the head and legs are way back from the center mass line of the shield, this throws off the time.impact.penetration equation of the strike. We use shield more for anaerobic/explosive and plyometric movement drills.

Fighting drills use the hogu.


----------



## mastercole

Earl Weiss said:


> I'm with you on the no hogu deal. Used to feel the same about headgear until I learned it's not so much to protect the head from the kick or punch as it is to protect the head if you go down hard from that sudden stop when it hits the floor. Also use mouth guards,cups,  and hand and foot gear. So, the "won't have it on the streets" is a non starter AFAIAC.
> 
> Do you use any sparring gear?



The hogu is not there so much to protect the body. Any protection it gives is a secondary consideration.

The hogu is an intelligent training tool for fighting skills.


----------



## mastercole

Twin Fist said:


> hands and feet, never use a mouth piece or headgear.
> 
> about 50/50 on the cup.



So during training you have segments where you punch to eachothers face full blast, and kick/knee/punch the stomach and ribs full blast and kick the balls full blast, all without any protective gear?


----------



## mastercole

Twin Fist said:


> kendo uses a solid chest protector dont they?
> 
> didnt know about the others, dont care, never used one, never needed one, wont ever use one.
> 
> wont have it on the streets......



I care, because you are making statements that end up being false, which makes me question all your other statements. 

I'm sure you understand my point?


----------



## mastercole

Twin Fist said:


> no, a martial artist that trains for the street, not tournaments



Right, your training to be a street fighter, sweet. 

How long you been training for street fights?  How old were you when you started training for street fights?

Thanks


----------



## puunui

mastercole said:


> The hogu is not there so much to protect the body. Any protection it gives is a secondary consideration.



As Taekwondo competition evolved, one of the reasons for the use of hogu was to facilitate scoring. The scoring areas are clearly marked on a hogu and when you kick it properly, it makes a loud sound. Hogu makes it easier on referees to score matches, back when referees actually scored points to the body. The old hogus made of cloth and bamboo did not make as good a sound as the modern hogu, and it discouraged people from using roundhouse kick, which is the engine of Taekwondo competition.


----------



## puunui

mastercole said:


> The problem with the kicking shield is that it is in a different place, held out at least a foot or more from the body line.  So the head and legs are way back from the center mass line of the shield, this throws off the time.impact.penetration equation of the strike.



The paddle as a training tool fails for basically the same reasons above. The paddle is held short, from the kicker's perspective, so distance is off. Paddles are good for basic technique and for speed training, but hogu is better for distance and timing. With hogu, you get a realistic response and feedback on the recoil of the kick; on paddles, not so much. If I had to choose only one type of equipment, it would be a pair of hogus. The only kick that is maybe better with paddles is spin hook kick, and perhaps ax kick, but you can substitute a hogu for both these kicks. Just take it off and hold it up.


----------



## Twin Fist

mastercole said:


> Right, your training to be a street fighter, sweet.
> 
> How long you been training for street fights?  How old were you when you started training for street fights?
> 
> Thanks



hmmm.....44 now.....started training when i was 19.....thats...a long time

look Boss, you want to wear it, go for it. I myself think it looks like a giant maxi pad and serves the same purpose as a regular maxi pad....

down here in Texas, we train with contact, HARD contact, and minimal protection. 

The thought process is "if you wont have it on the street, dont get used to wearing it in training."

you are invited to disagree, or not. No sweat off my butt either way


----------



## puunui

Twin Fist said:


> hmmm.....44 now.....started training when i was 19.....thats...a long time



Is it really? Compared to who or what?


----------



## ralphmcpherson

puunui said:


> Is it really? Compared to who or what?


Time is certainly not a good judge of where someone is at in martial arts. Ive met guys who have trained for 40 years but they only show up once a week, put in little effort, spend most of their time walking around the dojang 'socialising' or going to 'meetings' etc etc. Then Ive met people who have ten years experience but they train their backsides off 5 days a week religiously, and spend their spare time working on their kick bag at home and stretching and looking for new ways to improve. Time is all relative. I dont care about belts and stripes and years in grade, I judge someone by what they can do.


----------



## andyjeffries

mastercole said:


> Right, your training to be a street fighter, sweet.
> 
> How long you been training for street fights?  How old were you when you started training for street fights?



A bigger question would be "how many street fights have you had?".  A lot of people say they practice their traditional martial arts for street fighting "not that rubbishy rules tournament stuff", but haven't had any serious number of fights.  I wonder how many of these people training for that reason would actually have their *** handed to them by a decent tough guy who didn't care about the conditions they practice under...

At least the Gracies were out to prove their stuff was the best in no-holds-barred street fighting by having hundreds of open challenges.


----------



## andyjeffries

puunui said:


> Is it really? Compared to who or what?



I wonder what percentage of regular posters on this board have that much experience or more?...

I've started a thread for that question.


----------



## mastercole

Twin Fist said:


> hmmm.....44 now.....started training when i was 19.....thats...a long time
> 
> look Boss, you want to wear it, go for it. I myself think it looks like a giant maxi pad and serves the same purpose as a regular maxi pad....
> 
> down here in Texas, we train with contact, HARD contact, and minimal protection.
> 
> The thought process is "if you wont have it on the street, dont get used to wearing it in training."
> 
> you are invited to disagree, or not. No sweat off my butt either way



Hey, that's real cool.....  Being a bad a$$ street fighter Texas type dude, do you pick up lot's of chicks too?   Any tips?

Thanks Tex!


----------



## mastercole

ralphmcpherson said:


> Time is certainly not a good judge of where someone is at in martial arts. Ive met guys who have trained for 40 years but they only show up once a week, put in little effort, spend most of their time walking around the dojang 'socialising' or going to 'meetings' etc etc. Then Ive met people who have ten years experience but they train their backsides off 5 days a week religiously, and spend their spare time working on their kick bag at home and stretching and looking for new ways to improve. Time is all relative. I dont care about belts and stripes and years in grade, I judge someone by what they can do.



My age question had zero to do with training time.

The reason I asked his/her age was I thought he/she was like 12 or 13 years old, I'm serious!


----------



## Twin Fist

your insults and rudeness will not go over here.

you can insult the idea, but NOT the person posting it.

some friendly advice from one who has been slammed for rudeness and behavior in the past.

you need to change your posting style


----------



## Grenadier

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:*

Please keep this conversation civil.  This forum is for the discussion of Tae Kwon Do, so let's keep it on topic.  

Keep in mind, that if you don't like what someone else is saying, then you're always free to use the "ignore" feature, so that you do not see that person's posts.  

-Ronald Shin
-MT Supermoderator


----------



## andyjeffries

Twin Fist said:


> your insults and rudeness will not go over here. you can insult the idea, but NOT the person posting it. some friendly advice from one who has been slammed for rudeness and behavior in the past. you need to change your posting style



I don't know if this was aimed at me (as my post could be seen as abrasive, I guess) but if so I was aiming at the idea.

My post purely meant for those of you training for "the street" instead of sport, how do you prove your skill increases or prove "your s*** works" in street terms ;-)

As I said, the Gracies put their money where their mouth is and still do.  I wonder how many others who claim they are training for self-defence and denigrate sport training actually put their stuff to the test.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

andyjeffries said:


> I don't know if this was aimed at me (as my post could be seen as abrasive, I guess) but if so I was aiming at the idea.
> 
> My post purely meant for those of you training for "the street" instead of sport, how do you prove your skill increases or prove "your s*** works" in street terms ;-)
> 
> As I said, the Gracies put their money where their mouth is and still do. I wonder how many others who claim they are training for self-defence and denigrate sport training actually put their stuff to the test.


Outside of the UFC, how do the Gracies put their money where their mouth is with regards to self defence?  Not saying that they don't; but the only non-UFC statistic that I associate with the Gracies is their misrepresentation of the LAPD statistic regarding taking suspects to the ground.

Daniel


----------



## Earl Weiss

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Outside of the UFC, how do the Gracies put their money where their mouth is with regards to self defence? Not saying that they don't; but the only non-UFC statistic that I associate with the Gracies is their misrepresentation of the LAPD statistic regarding taking suspects to the ground.
> 
> Daniel


 
They have welcomed and engaged in challenge matches for decades.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Earl Weiss said:


> They have welcomed and engaged in challenge matches for decades.


Specifics please.  UFC rules?  BJJ rules?  Open karate tournament rules?  Bring your knife and we'll fight you unarmed?  Bring your gun and we'll fight you unarmed?

Tournament style fighting and one on one unarmed dueling do not equate to self defence.

Note: I am *not* saying that the Gracies cannot defend themselves.  But if I were going to seek out a school to learn self defense, Gracie jiujitsu is not what comes to mind.

That doesn't mean that it shouldn't, which is why I asked what they have done with regards to self defense.  

But if all that they've done is invite people to come roll with them, then I do not consider that self defence, though I do respect it.

Daniel


----------



## Twin Fist

wasnt talking to you andy, sorry if you thought i was.




andyjeffries said:


> I don't know if this was aimed at me (as my post could be seen as abrasive, I guess) but if so I was aiming at the idea.
> 
> My post purely meant for those of you training for "the street" instead of sport, how do you prove your skill increases or prove "your s*** works" in street terms ;-)
> 
> As I said, the Gracies put their money where their mouth is and still do.  I wonder how many others who claim they are training for self-defence and denigrate sport training actually put their stuff to the test.


----------



## Twin Fist

Earl Weiss said:


> They have welcomed and engaged in challenge matches for decades.



yeah, in thier schools, under thier rules, on nice soft cushy floors.......


try that rolling around crap on cement.


----------



## andyjeffries

Twin Fist said:


> yeah, in thier schools, under thier rules, on nice soft cushy floors.......



In their schools under no rules.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gracie_Challenge

Doing a youtube search for that term should show some examples.



Twin Fist said:


> try that rolling around crap on cement.



Are you serious?  It's really not that hard to roll around on cement and for masters who have been doing that "rolling around crap" for many years it's really not that hard to move their weight so they are heavy on their opponent but light during landing/moving impact.

Here's a YouTube video that shows a fairly average guy doing forward rolls and back breakfalls on concrete. If you're telling me that a GJJ master can't land softly you are deluded.

This is coming across seeming you think you're the only guys who have an effective self-defence system.  That's disrespectful to everyone else out there and looks very naïve when the comparison we're currently drawing is the famous Gracie family.

I'd be interested to know if you've ever trained with a Gracie?

I haven't, but I have done about 6 months BJJ so far and I have to tell you when I hear people's opinions like it's "two gay men cuddling and rolling around" I feel sorry for them as they have no ********** idea what they're talking about until they've tried it...

You may not like ground fighting, but their hundreds/thousands of challenge matches over the years have proved that their system has merit.


----------



## andyjeffries

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Specifics please.  UFC rules?  BJJ rules?  Open karate tournament rules?  Bring your knife and we'll fight you unarmed?  Bring your gun and we'll fight you unarmed?



Very simple - unarmed no rules, come along to the dojo, put up some money, we'll match it and the winner takes all.  However, I did hear a rumour that the Gracies rarely kept the money when they won (but that may be incorrect).



Daniel Sullivan said:


> Tournament style fighting and one on one unarmed dueling do not equate to self defence.



Absolutely, and I wouldn't call this tournament style fighting.



Daniel Sullivan said:


> But if all that they've done is invite people to come roll with them, then I do not consider that self defence, though I do respect it.



It wasn't rolling (assuming you mean the BJJ term for sparring, not a generic term for two people just rolling around), it was "you can do what you want".   I can't remember if it's in the documentary "Choke" or the one about Renzo Gracie, but there was quite a bit of footage in their of the early challenge matches.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

andyjeffries said:


> Very simple - unarmed no rules, come along to the dojo, put up some money, we'll match it and the winner takes all.  However, I did hear a rumour that the Gracies rarely kept the money when they won (but that may be incorrect).
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely, and I wouldn't call this tournament style fighting.
> 
> 
> 
> It wasn't rolling (assuming you mean the BJJ term for sparring,


Yes, I mean BJJ term for sparring.



andyjeffries said:


> not a generic term for two people just rolling around), it was "you can do what you want".   I can't remember if it's in the documentary "Choke" or the one about Renzo Gracie, but there was quite a bit of footage in their of the early challenge matches.


That isn't doing anything for self defense.  That is exactly what I had said earlier: two man dueling, not self defense.

Don't get me wrong, I respect that they do it and tip my hat to them.  But again, that is not about practical self defense.  

Secondly, saying 'no rules' is false.  At least two rules are in effect: no weapons and nobody is going to die.  Chances are, a third rule, no buddies waiting to jump in to help an opponent, is probably in place.

A two man duel in an agreed upon time and setting, presumably for set period of time, and certainly under the supervision of others, is not self defense.

It always surprises me that people equate such a thing to self defense.  Is a two man duel a serious challenge?  Yes.  Do you use some techniques that one could apply in a real world self defense scenario?  Yes.  But is it actually self defense?  No.

Daniel


----------



## Earl Weiss

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Specifics please. UFC rules? BJJ rules? Open karate tournament rules? Bring your knife and we'll fight you unarmed? Bring your gun and we'll fight you unarmed?
> 
> Tournament style fighting and one on one unarmed dueling do not equate to self defence.
> 
> Daniel


 
Fom the videos out there it appears to be UFC type rules.


----------



## Earl Weiss

Twin Fist said:


> yeah, in thier schools, under thier rules, on nice soft cushy floors.......
> 
> 
> try that rolling around crap on cement.


 
They'll be the first to tell you to try and not go to the ground in a self defense situation.


----------



## ETinCYQX

Earl Weiss said:


> They'll be the first to tell you to try and not go to the ground in a self defense situation.



Definitely my line of thinking, but being comfortable on the ground is a huge asset in a self defense scenario. The fact is, there are people who are going to be able to take you to the ground and when that happens, being able to play a good guard, being able to sweep from the guard, and being able to control an opponent on the ground are suddenly not so much "rolling around crap"


----------



## Twin Fist

Andy,
i place very little to no self defense value in bjj.

But it isnt in bjj ALONE, i place little to no self defense value in WTF olympic style korean kick boxing, or for that matter in most of what is passed off as karate these days.

The Gracies are famous because they set up a contest that was designed for them to win, and they did win it, for about 2 years, then they started losing once everyone figured out how to grapple AND strike and none of the gracies can throw a decent punch..... 

BJJ is a great sport, but it isnt a self defense art.

IMO

you dont have to agree 




andyjeffries said:


> This is coming across seeming you think you're the only guys who have an effective self-defence system.  That's disrespectful to everyone else out there and looks very naïve when the comparison we're currently drawing is the famous Gracie family.
> 
> I'd be interested to know if you've ever trained with a Gracie?
> 
> I haven't, but I have done about 6 months BJJ so far and I have to tell you when I hear people's opinions like it's "two gay men cuddling and rolling around" I feel sorry for them as they have no ********** idea what they're talking about until they've tried it...
> 
> You may not like ground fighting, but their hundreds/thousands of challenge matches over the years have proved that their system has merit.




no, it proves that people with no clue how to deal with the ground can be taken to the ground and beaten by someone who does nothing else.....


----------



## Steve

This is the TKD subforum, for christ's sake.  Why are you guys arguing here about whether BJJ is good for self defense or not in a thread entitled "TKD school - sparring optional?"  

I personally believe that few martial arts styles teach self defense.  Unless you teach situational awareness, conflict avoidance, solid communications skills  and a host of other skills that are much more likely to keep a person safe, you don't teach self defense.  You teach, to some degree or another, how to fight.  BIG difference.  Stop kidding yourselves.


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## puunui

stevebjj said:


> I personally believe that few martial arts styles teach self defense.  Unless you teach situational awareness, conflict avoidance, solid communications skills  and a host of other skills that are much more likely to keep a person safe, you don't teach self defense.



How do you teach street smarts? That's what it really comes down to, when talking about protecting yourself "on the streets".


----------



## Rumy73

tinker1 said:


> A neighbor trains at a local TKD chain "Taekwondo Center", run by GM Sang Lee. So we discuss TKD from time to time.. his kids go there too.
> 
> Recently he told me that neither he or his kids spar, and yet they are preparing for their first Dan test. He said sparring is optional.
> 
> Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I just don't see how you can progress in the martial arts without sparring. Sure, you can learn the techniques and the forms - but without practice on a partner that's working against you, I don't see how anyone can develop any practical application experience.
> 
> He also said they don't learn much about self defense.
> 
> So... is this the way TKD schools are run these days?


 

Sparring of some type should be part of a student's development. While applying the skill of hitting a moving target and avoiding attacks, it builds confidence and character. We've heard here many arguments about what type of sparring is best. Each point is debatable. My view is that sparring should be well-rounded. Different exercises offer opportunities to learn and also have limitations. The instructor should be make the students aware of them. Whether students wear sparring gear or not is open to debate as well. Simply wearing gear does not mean student lose control. A good teacher should always be watching and reinforcing the concept of control. Now whether sparring per se is an effective way to learn self-defense is also open to debate. Of course, we hear time and time again "my style is better than yours" etc. 

I will agree with some of the comments here that sparring has slowly lost its place as the primary component of the martial arts experience. There's probably some relationship with how schools have developed zero-tolerence policies for fighting. Whether this is good or bad, I'm not sure. However, that being said, I feel sorry for some of the folks on here talking about "preparing for the streets by fighting without gear or cup, because on the streets you don't have them." Fine and good. However, the best self defense is to be self aware and to learn to avoid and/or de-escalate conflict. 99.9% fights can be avoided if a person can remove his ego from the situation. Lessening one's ego is part of being a martial artist. If and where I've had to fight in life, I made it quick and escaped at the first practicable moment. One must also remember that if he or she engages in violence, whether the aggressor or not, there might be liability.


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## Daniel Sullivan

stevebjj said:


> This is the TKD subforum, for christ's sake. Why are you guys arguing here about whether BJJ is good for self defense or not in a thread entitled "TKD school - sparring optional?"


For the same reason that any thread gets derailed:  Someone makes a statement and it receives multiple responses.

In this case, Andy stated that the Gracies put their money where their mouth is with regards to self defense.  I disagree; they put their money where their mouth is with regards to being able to make great use of their art against opponents who train in a variety of arts.  You could insert any other champion's name and art and my response would be the same.  It just so happened to be the Gracies and BJJ. 



stevebjj said:


> I personally believe that few martial arts styles teach self defense. Unless you teach situational awareness, conflict avoidance, solid communications skills and a host of other skills that are much more likely to keep a person safe, you don't teach self defense. You teach, to some degree or another, how to fight. BIG difference. Stop kidding yourselves.


QFT.

Daniel


----------



## andyjeffries

Daniel Sullivan said:


> For the same reason that any thread gets derailed:  Someone makes a statement and it receives multiple responses.



Exactly - this isn't a televised debate with a moderator.  Sometimes threads go off the original topic. Sometimes there would be a more appropriate board/forum to post them on (but then we wouldn't be discussing it among our familiar friends).

I consider this forum like a local pub.  There's a group of regulars whose opinion I enjoy reading/discussing - I may not always agree with them - and sometimes things go off topic, but I'd rather discuss it with the regulars than a bunch of strangers.



Daniel Sullivan said:


> In this case, Andy stated that the Gracies put their money where their mouth is with regards to self defense.  I disagree; they put their money where their mouth is with regards to being able to make great use of their art against opponents who train in a variety of arts.



And I'm sure we'll agree to disagree.  It's all in the spirit of debate with no offence intended on all sides I'm sure...


----------



## Twin Fist

Daniel Sullivan said:


> In this case, Andy stated that the Gracies put their money where their mouth is with regards to self defense.  I disagree;
> 
> Daniel



yep


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

andyjeffries said:


> And I'm sure we'll agree to disagree. It's all in the spirit of debate with no offence intended on all sides I'm sure...


Never!! You *MUST* bow to* MY* wisdom! 

Kneel before Zod!





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3ABRN9UKLo&feature=related



Daniel


----------



## dancingalone

stevebjj said:


> I personally believe that few martial arts styles teach self defense.  Unless you teach situational awareness, conflict avoidance, solid communications skills  and a host of other skills that are much more likely to keep a person safe, you don't teach self defense.  You teach, to some degree or another, how to fight.  BIG difference.  Stop kidding yourselves.



I think this is merely an argument of what self-defense is.  Things like awareness of your environment or conflict mediation/de-escalation can indeed be useful skills to learn as part of a holistic SD curriculum.  But, in its simplest form, SD is about defending yourself against a physical attack, which I would venture to say that the majority of TKD schools probably attempt to address at a fundamental level.  This is day 1 stuff.  Move, block, counter.  I think that counts as SD.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

dancingalone said:


> I think this is merely an argument of what self-defense is. Things like awareness of your environment or conflict mediation/de-escalation can indeed be useful skills to learn as part of a holistic SD curriculum. But, in its simplest form, SD is about defending yourself against a physical attack, which I would venture to say that the majority of TKD schools probably attempt to address at a fundamental level. This is day 1 stuff. Move, block, counter. I think that counts as SD.


Yes, I would agree with that in essence.  Self defense encompasses a great many things, though and being prepared for a ring fight, regardless of the rules in place, is not the same thing as being prepared to defend or protect one's self outside of that setting.  

There are many skills that go into real world self defense that are not physical skills.  Verbal skills are arguably more important than the physical skills, as they can often get you out of more situations than the physical skills can.

Regarding the funementals of defending against an attacker, I also consider knowing when and when not to fight a fundemental.  

I had said in a thread in the general section that the art that you practice is less important than the mindset of how you practice and that developing one's basics to the point that they are second nature is more important than which art's basics they happent to be.

Getting it back on topic: optional sparring.  Sparring puts you in a free form situation where you must execute your techniques against a resisting opponent.  If you have no opportunity to do this, regardless of what your art calls it or what the rule set is, then I contend that your development as a student will be severely stunted. 

Daniel


----------



## Twin Fist

learning martial arts without sparring is like learning to make love by watching porn.

all theorhetical


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Rumy73 said:


> I will agree with some of the comments here that sparring has slowly lost its place as the primary component of the martial arts experience. There's probably some relationship with how schools have developed zero-tolerence policies for fighting. Whether this is good or bad, I'm not sure.


I suspect that it has more to do with commercialism.  A lot of people are willing to go do cardio kickboxing but would not set foot in a contact kickboxing class.  By diminishing or removing sparring either entirly or by making it an option, you broaden your customer base.

With regards to kiddie classes, no sparring = everybody wins/nobody loses.  So if sparring is optional, kids who aren't comfortable sparring, or who for whatever reason, aren't good at it, can get an equal pat on the back by opting out.

Daniel


----------



## Steve

dancingalone said:


> I think this is merely an argument of what self-defense is.  Things like awareness of your environment or conflict mediation/de-escalation can indeed be useful skills to learn as part of a holistic SD curriculum.  But, in its simplest form, SD is about defending yourself against a physical attack, which I would venture to say that the majority of TKD schools probably attempt to address at a fundamental level.  This is day 1 stuff.  Move, block, counter.  I think that counts as SD.


In this day and age?  For most people?  If you're teaching those skills that will statistically help you to avoid conflict and stay safe, your time would be better spent learning the soft skills than any martial arts.  Unless you are routinely putting yourself at risk, whether by living in a war zone, or as a LEO, guard, security officer or masked vigilante, Self Defense is a misnomer regardless of what style of martial art you study.  I would argue that if you're a LEO or otherwise involved in these trades, it's no longer self defense.  It becomes essential job knowledge.  

So, the question isn't whether BJJ is effective self defense.  Or whether your TKD is better than TwinFist's TKD is better than Daniel Sullivan's TKD.  They're different.  On a spectrum where "fun" is on one end and "battle ready" is on the other, bringing self defense into the discussion is false advertisement.  That's not what's being taught.   The rest is splitting hairs.

The question I see in this thread isn't about whether it's effective self defense.  It's whether you're actually learning what you think you're learning.  And in this, I agree with TwinFist.  If you're not sparring, you have no idea.  This in no way devalues any other learning technique.  Simply, in the absence of practical experience (ie, putting yourself at risk so that you can defend yourself physically), you have to simulate the behaviors you're trying to learn.  Unscripted combat in a controlled environment is one way.  Competition is another.  Starting fights in a bar isn't something I'd recommend, but it would be an effective way of gaining experience.

I've used the analogy before of learning golf.  If you aren't sparring, you're not learning to fight.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

stevebjj said:


> So, *the question isn't whether BJJ is effective self defense*. Or whether your TKD is better than TwinFist's TKD is better than Daniel Sullivan's TKD. They're different. On a spectrum where "fun" is on one end and "battle ready" is on the other, bringing self defense into the discussion is false advertisement. That's not what's being taught. The rest is splitting hairs.


I completely agree, both with the above. and with the rest of your post. Though the question of BJJ being effective SD was actually not the point of contention, but whether or not an open challenge to two man unarmed dueling with non-restrictive rules equates to self defense.  

I condend that it does not, be it BJJ, JJJ, TKD, HKD, AKD, TSD, JKD, and any other __D or __J or __S, or __whatever you can think of.

Daniel


----------



## dancingalone

Steve, you quoted me before making your post below which may give some the impression that I am an advocate of not sparring.  For the record, I am a proponent of sparring as a means of drilling physical skills which are essential in sport AND self-defense.  I merely was stating my opinion that it's rather too far of a step to believe that if you don't teach conflict avoidance, etc, that you do not teach SD. 

Be that as it may, I will respond to some of the comments you offered.



stevebjj said:


> In this day and age?  For most people?  If you're teaching those skills that will statistically help you to avoid conflict and stay safe, your time would be better spent learning the soft skills than any martial arts.  Unless you are routinely putting yourself at risk, whether by living in a war zone, or as a LEO, guard, security officer or masked vigilante, Self Defense is a misnomer regardless of what style of martial art you study.  I would argue that if you're a LEO or otherwise involved in these trades, it's no longer self defense.  It becomes essential job knowledge.



Why is it a misnomer?  If I am learning to PHYSICALLY dodge or block an attack while launching a countering attack of my own, why is that not SD?  I would be learning to defend myself, albeit at the last stages of an encounter when hostilities have actually commenced.  To me that is still self-defense although you may certainly argue with some merit that it is 'better' to have avoided the physical conflict in the first place.



stevebjj said:


> So, the question isn't whether BJJ is effective self defense.  Or whether your TKD is better than TwinFist's TKD is better than Daniel Sullivan's TKD.  They're different.  On a spectrum where "fun" is on one end and "battle ready" is on the other, bringing self defense into the discussion is false advertisement.  That's not what's being taught.   The rest is splitting hairs.



I care not about the BJJ issue nor did I even address it in my prior post.  Again, you are asserting that people teaching TKD(?) possibly even myself are not teaching SD.  How so?  Explain.



stevebjj said:


> The question I see in this thread isn't about whether it's effective self defense.  It's whether you're actually learning what you think you're learning.  And in this, I agree with TwinFist.  If you're not sparring, you have no idea.  This in no way devalues any other learning technique.  Simply, in the absence of practical experience (ie, putting yourself at risk so that you can defend yourself physically), you have to simulate the behaviors you're trying to learn.  Unscripted combat in a controlled environment is one way.  Competition is another.  Starting fights in a bar isn't something I'd recommend, but it would be an effective way of gaining experience.
> 
> I've used the analogy before of learning golf.  If you aren't sparring, you're not learning to fight.



Yes, Sir,  I believe sparring is necessary.  Are we arguing about this???


----------



## chrispillertkd

dancingalone said:


> I think this is merely an argument of what self-defense is. Things like awareness of your environment or conflict mediation/de-escalation can indeed be useful skills to learn as part of a holistic SD curriculum.


 
This is quite right and I would just say that, in my own experience being aware of one's surrounding was stressed from my first day of class. I can still remember my instructor telling us all that we as martial artists had to be aware of our surroundings at all times as far back as when I was a white belt. 

As fo conflict de-escaltion, that is a good skill to have just in everyday life. I hazard to say that focusing Taekwon-Do's tenet of Courtesy would go a long way to defuse most potential conflicts before they got to the point of needing to physically defend oneself. Not all, of course, because sometimes there are just people who want to fight regardless of what you do, but it certainly can help.



> But, in its simplest form, SD is about defending yourself against a physical attack, which I would venture to say that the majority of TKD schools probably attempt to address at a fundamental level. This is day 1 stuff. Move, block, counter. I think that counts as SD.


 
Couldn't agree more.

Pax,

Chris


----------



## chrispillertkd

dancingalone said:


> For the record, I am a proponent of sparring as a means of drilling physical skills which are essential in sport AND self-defense. I merely was stating my opinion that it's rather too far of a step to believe that if you don't teach conflict avoidance, etc, that you do not teach SD.


 
Out of curiosity, because you focus a lot on bunkai when practicing patterns do you see any overlap between working on applications on a partner and free sparring? I personally think doing partner drills where the techniques from patterns are applied is quite helpful, of course, even if it's largely done in a step-sparring context but I am wondering if there's ever a bridge between bunkai and free sparring. Do any of the application drills practiced on a partner ever turn up when you and your students are sparring?

Pax,

Chris


----------



## dancingalone

chrispillertkd said:


> Out of curiosity, because you focus a lot on bunkai when practicing patterns do you see any overlap between working on applications on a partner and free sparring? I personally think doing partner drills where the techniques from patterns are applied is quite helpful, of course, even if it's largely done in a step-sparring context but I am wondering if there's ever a bridge between bunkai and free sparring. Do any of the application drills practiced on a partner ever turn up when you and your students are sparring?




Well, yes, we have different layers of step-sparing and free-form sparring with efforts to link bunkai to sparring activities.  The progression follows like so:

Static step-sparring > freelance attacks with static counters > freelance attacks and freelance counters > combination attacks and defender finish

Thus, static step-sparring is what all of us are familiar with.  Either a predefined one step or three step attack sequence with a planned defense.  Since both partners know their roles, the goal in this drill is to develop technical perfection in power, speed, efficiency, and fluidity.

We can introduce a level of complexity and uncertainty by changing the attack to a freelance one where the attacker may choose any single attack he pleases to any target zone (low, medium, high), even if it is a grab.  This forces the defender, who is constrained by his scripted response, nonetheless to adapt it to make it work in application.  I find even staying at this level creates functionally high level students since they understand better when specific spoon-fed techniques will and will not work. 

The next stage has both the attack and counter freelance in nature.  This alteration of the basic drill is a obvious progression and it allows the defender to make their preferred movements second nature to them.

Finally, we raise the bar a final time by allowing the attacker to strike in combination, forcing the defender to pick his spot to insert himself to start his own counter attack.  We also add the burden that Defender must end his counter with the attacker on the ground and controlled in some way, possibly with a pin or lock.

Free form sparring are drilled like so:

Prearranged striking drills > prearranged defense  > free sparring - striking only  

Prearranged striking with entries > prearranged defense with close range countering > free sparring, takedowns permitted

I think these are largely self-explanatory, but if you'd like to discuss any of them, post away!  In the prearranged drills, I am trying to teach foundational skills, some coming straight from kata lessions.  The further progressions are meant to make the student absorb these basic skills and then be able to freestyle them at will in reaction to the correct stimuli.

We also have a final type of 3/4 pace collaborative sparring where we try to engage each other and employ the so-called bunkai contained with kata.  Some of the movements are un-usable against other because of their potentially lethal outcomes, so we'll have a defined 'click point' in the drill to where one person will accept that the other person has gained proper position to apply his move and will then resist only partially, letting his partner make his 'finish'.  It's not a perfect training situation but at least we can practice against real people this way.

I also pad up in a Redman suit occasionally and let my students blast away, anything goes.  Even with the suit on, I'm very careful about my own safety and I will call 'break' quickly.


----------



## puunui

dancingalone said:


> I also pad up in a Redman suit occasionally and let my students blast away, anything goes.  Even with the suit on, I'm very careful about my own safety and I will call 'break' quickly.




How much does a Redman suit cost? And how much protection does it afford the wearer? Can it absorb a full force blow from a male that weighs say, 175 pounds?


----------



## dancingalone

puunui said:


> How much does a Redman suit cost? And how much protection does it afford the wearer? Can it absorb a full force blow from a male that weighs say, 175 pounds?



I don't know the current retail price for one.  I bought a demonstration suit from one of their reps years ago for $1500 or so and he said then I was getting a hefty discount.  I am sure prices have come down since and they probably have improvements over the model I have.  I've had it for about 5 years now and it's still going strong.  I'm happy with the deal.

And yes, I've taken full force shots from students my size and more (190 lbs +) in the torso/sides without injury.  You can still feel some pain if you get caught in the groin, but that's mainly due to the suit being compressed against your [tender] flesh and it does take a goodly amount of pop to be able to penetrate even so.

My main complaint about the suit is the inevitable loss of mobility the wearer has which affects the type of drills we're able to run with it.  Nonetheless it is invaluable for letting your students cut loose every now and then, so they at least have experienced what it might be like to unleash disabling force against a live, aggressive attacker.


----------



## puunui

dancingalone said:


> My main complaint about the suit is the inevitable loss of mobility the wearer has which affects the type of drills we're able to run with it.  Nonetheless it is invaluable for letting your students cut loose every now and then, so they at least have experienced what it might be like to unleash disabling force against a live, aggressive attacker.




Are you able to do "jiujitsu" or Judo throws if both are wearing redman suits? I am thinking that a redman suit approximates what an armored samurai would be in terms of mobility and bulk and was wondering how empty handed or jujitsu stuff would work under those circumstances, since that is what jiujitsu was originally designed for.


----------



## dancingalone

puunui said:


> Are you able to do "jiujitsu" or Judo throws if both are wearing redman suits? I am thinking that a redman suit approximates what an armored samurai would be in terms of mobility and bulk and was wondering how empty handed or jujitsu stuff would work under those circumstances, since that is what jiujitsu was originally designed for.



It's like gaining 15-20 lbs yet in an odd way so you are fatter (er, more padded) everywhere at once.  I'll admit I do not feel centered and agile enough to attempt most of my aiki techniques against an  unencumbered opponent who is at a level approximating or even reasonably below mine.  I have pulled off the bigger movements which lend themselves to gross strength like a arm/shoulder throw.

It's an interesting thought about having two people suit up to try aiki techniques against each other, but as I only own one suit...Humph.  Now you make me want to buy another.


----------



## ETinCYQX

dancingalone, if I may ask, what did the redman suit run you cost wise? I'd like to have one in a lot of ways.


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## puunui

ETinCYQX said:


> dancingalone, if I may ask, what did the redman suit run you cost wise? I'd like to have one in a lot of ways.



Apparently, there are all kinds of suits you can buy. The one that I have in my head,the instructor one, costs $1299.00. 

http://www.redmangear.com/


----------



## ETinCYQX

Excellent Puunui, thanks. I'm going to be offering a dedicated self-defense course () and the Redman suit would allow me to train people live.


----------



## mastercole

dancingalone said:


> I don't know the current retail price for one.  I bought a demonstration suit from one of their reps years ago for $1500 or so and he said then I was getting a hefty discount.  I am sure prices have come down since and they probably have improvements over the model I have.  I've had it for about 5 years now and it's still going strong.  I'm happy with the deal.
> 
> And yes, I've taken full force shots from students my size and more (190 lbs +) in the torso/sides without injury.  You can still feel some pain if you get caught in the groin, but that's mainly due to the suit being compressed against your [tender] flesh and it does take a goodly amount of pop to be able to penetrate even so.
> 
> My main complaint about the suit is the inevitable loss of mobility the wearer has which affects the type of drills we're able to run with it.  Nonetheless it is invaluable for letting your students cut loose every now and then, so they at least have experienced what it might be like to unleash disabling force against a live, aggressive attacker.



Years ago, several school in the Cleveland area went in together on Red Man and Blue Man suits.  One school would use one for a month and pass it on.

Average students could hit it generally full force and the guy inside was OK, usually being a fighter himself, but when elite tournament fighters started kicking and punching it, no way, it was hurting the guy inside.

I think they have a use, just not for highly trained practitioners who already train full contact.


----------



## dancingalone

mastercole said:


> I think they have a use, just not for highly trained practitioners who already train full contact.



They're used all over the country, including by the reality-based SD people, as a training tool to permit students to do things like grab, tear, gouge, pummel, etc. against an attacker.  You are probably right that groups like WTF athletes would have little use for it.  'Highly trained practitioners who train full contact' is perhaps too vague a descriptor.


----------



## mastercole

dancingalone said:


> They're used all over the country, including by the reality-based SD people, as a training tool to permit students to do things like grab, tear, gouge, pummel, etc. against an attacker.  You are probably right that groups like WTF athletes would have little use for it.  'Highly trained practitioners who train full contact' is perhaps too vague a descriptor.



'Highly trained practitioners who train full contact', that would be martial art athletes that train for full contact competitions, that would include WTF athletes as well.

Sure, regular students have a blast with the red/blue man suits, they are fun and exciting for them. My point was that athlete fighters hit way to hard, it cuts through that suit with ease. Martial arts athletes don't need that type of """""SD"""" training, they already have the right stuff, well, actually the stuff the athlete fighters have, the regular class students will never have unless they train like the athletes train and that does not involve jumping out from behind bushes and gouging at a red man suit.

Martial arts athletes will always have superior SD advantage over the regular student, no matter what kind of scenario training that student does, or who designs it for them.


----------



## dancingalone

mastercole said:


> 'Highly trained practitioners who train full contact', that would be martial art athletes that train for full contact competitions, that would include WTF athletes as well.



You're being myopic.  There are groups of people who train 'full contact' yet probably would not meet any definition of the word athlete, as they do not train for sporting competitions.  That is what I mean by you overstretching.  Just because you can't see a scenario where the Redman would be useful to YOU, doesn't mean others, nonetheless in a full contact methodology, won't find it valuable.

Unless you want to define full contact as kicking and punching only in a rules-based context which would allow you to set up your own self-fulfilling argument.





mastercole said:


> Sure, regular students have a blast with the red/blue man suits, they are fun and exciting for them. My point was that athlete fighters hit way to hard, it cuts through that suit with ease. Martial arts athletes don't need that type of """""SD"""" training, they already have the right stuff, well, actually the stuff the athlete fighters have, the regular class students will never have unless they train like the athletes train and that does not involve jumping out from behind bushes and gouging at a red man suit.
> 
> Martial arts athletes will always have superior SD advantage over the regular student, no matter what kind of scenario training that student does, or who designs it for them.



People with superior conditioning and technique will generally outperform average people.  No argument there.

What you're writing tells me you do little in the way of training outside of kicking and punching, likely to a given subset of targets which are scorable.  Equipment like Redman suits are very useful when you train for other goals with other bodily tools.


----------



## mastercole

dancingalone said:


> You're being myopic.  There are groups of people who train 'full contact' yet probably would not meet any definition of the word athlete, as they do not train for sporting competitions. That is what I mean by you overstretching.



In order to train for full contact, a person would have to work on speed, strength, agility, explosiveness, conditioning and sparring against fellow trainees in the training hall, etc., That would be an athlete by definition. Even though most people who train in such a way would attend tournaments, a person would not have to attend tournaments to be considered training for competition. Competition can be against their peers, in there own training hall. So maybe you are being myopic?



dancingalone said:


> Just because you can't see a scenario where the Redman would be useful to YOU, doesn't mean others, nonetheless in a full contact methodology, won't find it valuable.



Are you being myopic?  I find the redman and bluemax suits to be useful to me as an instructor, that is why I bought them. My students love them, it's a huge deal to bring them out and run drills.  My fighters however were not impressed, and the guys inside the suits quickly pointed out that the suits offered little protection when being kicked and punched by the fighters. 



dancingalone said:


> Unless you want to define full contact as kicking and punching only in a rules-based context which would allow you to set up your own self-fulfilling argument.



Well developed, elite level kicking, punching, stepping, rolling with the punches or whatever type of technique work/hurt the same, no matter what the rules  




dancingalone said:


> People with superior conditioning and technique will generally outperform average people.  No argument there.



That is my point.



dancingalone said:


> What you're writing tells me you do little in the way of training outside of kicking and punching, likely to a given subset of targets which are scorable.  Equipment like Redman suits are very useful when you train for other goals with other bodily tools.



Remember, I am talking about my fighters special full contact skills, not my regular students.
The fighters focus on attacking with full force gross motor skill techniques and avoiding attacks from the same. Do your fighters train that way?

My fighters spend around 6+ hours, 5 to 6 days a week training for 3 to 4 months during a cycle. Not all of them go to tournaments, but they all fight, very hard and at great risk.

How many hours day and days week, and months do your students spend gouging, chopping, knee and headbutting the redman?


----------



## dancingalone

mastercole said:


> In order to train for full contact, a person would have to work on speed, strength, agility, explosiveness, conditioning and sparring against fellow trainees in the training hall, etc., That would be an athlete by definition. Even though most people who train in such a way would attend tournaments, a person would not have to attend tournaments to be considered training for competition. Competition can be against their peers, in there own training hall. So maybe you are being myopic?



Athlete:  a person who is trained or skilled in exercises, sports, or games requiring physical strength, agility, or stamina 

Sounds like sports and games is synonymous with the word athlete, so many martial artists despite their excellent technique and physical conditioning would not fit the definition of 'athlete'.  Martial artists can train for outcomes instead which can mean sport for you or other things like SD, personal growth, grounding or inner peace, etc.

You are VERY focused on the sport aspect and it colors everything you are saying right now.  That's not a bad thing, but don't be shocked if others call you when you overreach and speak out of line for everyone else.



mastercole said:


> Are you being myopic?  I find the redman and bluemax suits to be useful to me as an instructor, that is why I bought them. My students love them, it's a huge deal to bring them out and run drills.  My fighters however were not impressed, and the guys inside the suits quickly pointed out that the suits offered little protection when being kicked and punched by the fighters.



Again, you're viewing everything through your lens of what is worthwhile for competition.  Run some drills with the Redman with the defender using a rubber knife or wooden stick.  It is useful because you can now whack the Redman guy right in the face with either weapon, whether the pain is completely eliminated or not doesn't matter, because without the suit you couldn't do it to begin with.

So, for a WTF athlete who is focused on kicking and punching with high impact to specific scoring targets, it's probably not so useful.  Take the same WTF athlete and have her practice different things like a rape defense scenario with different starting assumptions (range for example) and I think the suit would be very useful.

Your mistake is trying to divide along the lines of athlete and nonathlete rather than activity vs. activity.



mastercole said:


> How many hours day and days week, and months do your students spend gouging, chopping, knee and headbutting the redman?



Rather more than yours apparently if you'll forgive me for being a little snarky.


----------



## mastercole

dancingalone said:


> Athlete:  a person who is trained or skilled in exercises, sports, or games requiring physical strength, agility, or stamina
> 
> Sounds like sports and games is synonymous with the word athlete, so many martial artists despite their excellent technique and physical conditioning would not fit the definition of 'athlete'.



That is according to you, because your focus matches your own agenda. You have ignored the first point of the above definition, "a person who is trained or skilled in *exercises*" with sports and games being 2nd and 3rd. 



dancingalone said:


> Martial artists can train for outcomes instead which can mean sport for you or other things like SD, personal growth, grounding or inner peace, etc.



For me, Martial arts do not have the meaning of tournaments (what you call sport). I never said that it held such a meaning for me, or my students. I was talking about my fighters.



dancingalone said:


> You are VERY focused on the sport aspect and it colors everything you are saying right now.



Where did I say I was focused on the "sport" aspect?  You are assuming that, I never said that. I was having a discussion on a narrow subject, athlete vs non athlete martial artist, you are jumping to conclusions.



dancingalone said:


> That's not a bad thing, but don't be shocked if others call you when you overreach and speak out of line for everyone else.



Why would I be shocked by what someone has to say? Up to now, I am perfectly fine with what folks have been saying.  BTW, no one needs you to tell them they are speaking out of line, everyone up to now is being civil.  If you want to make those comments, I recommend you address them to yourself.



dancingalone said:


> Again, you're viewing everything through your lens of what is worthwhile for competition.



A fight against your peer in the dojang and a fight on the street are both competitions. Maybe you want to say tournament?  I'm not talking about tournaments.



dancingalone said:


> Run some drills with the Redman with the defender using a rubber knife or wooden stick.  It is useful because you can now whack the Redman guy right in the face with either weapon, whether the pain is completely eliminated or not doesn't matter, because without the suit you couldn't do it to begin with.



Done that for years.  Did you read what  I wrote about the Redman and Bluemax, I bought both.



dancingalone said:


> So, for a WTF athlete who is focused on kicking and punching with high impact to specific scoring targets, it's probably not so useful.



You think it is impossible for a WTF athlete to decide to kick someone, full force in the groin, back or throat, or punch full force to their face?



dancingalone said:


> Take the same WTF athlete and have her practice different things like a rape defense scenario with different starting assumptions (range for example) and I think the suit would be very useful.



She would knock the person in the suit out, not a good idea.  Any thing she decided to do would be explosive and extremely powerful.  She developed that skill already over the hours, days, months and years of full contact training.  She don't need the redman, the other students who don't train like she does, they need it.



dancingalone said:


> Your mistake is trying to divide along the lines of athlete and nonathlete rather than activity vs. activity.



No mistake here. I'm sure you remember the saying that goes something like "it's the dog in the fight that matters"


----------



## puunui

Daniel Sullivan said:


> There are many skills that go into real world self defense that are not physical skills.  Verbal skills are arguably more important than the physical skills, as they can often get you out of more situations than the physical skills can.



I think you'd be amazed at how elite athletes are trained in both verbal and non-verbal communication skills. Or at least they used to be. The higher you go, the more important these things become. Elite athletes are defending themselves, inside or outside of the ring.


----------



## dancingalone

mastercole said:


> That is according to you, because your focus matches your own agenda. You have ignored the first point of the above definition, "a person who is trained or skilled in *exercises*" with sports and games being 2nd and 3rd.



I had a feeling you would seize on that as an out.  Think about it logically... does someone training for SD exclusively normally call himself an athlete or what he does 'athletics'?  No.  There's a reason for that - the word athlete is tied in completely into a sporting competition.  If you want to ignore that, it's up to you, but it's not much of a position to stand upon.



mastercole said:


> For me, Martial arts do not have the meaning of tournaments (what you call sport). I never said that it held such a meaning for me, or my students. I was talking about my fighters.



Sorry, but when you use your 'fighters' almost exclusively as examples in the discussion, you connect sport/tournaments to a great degree to what you espouse.




mastercole said:


> Where did I say I was focused on the "sport" aspect?  You are assuming that, I never said that. I was having a discussion on a narrow subject, athlete vs non athlete martial artist, you are jumping to conclusions.



That is the conclusion I must form when you have dodged my repeated attempts here and on the other thread to separate the level of practitioner (athlete vs. enthusiast to you) and discuss the value of training for specific activities instead, such as knife defense.  Since you have refused to address my point given multiple opportunities to do so, I must conclude that all you are interested in is what you do within your sport methodology.  If you want to call that tournament fighters, that is fine.



mastercole said:


> Why would I be shocked by what someone has to say? Up to now, I am perfectly fine with what folks have been saying.  BTW, no one needs you to tell them they are speaking out of line, everyone up to now is being civil.  If you want to make those comments, I recommend you address them to yourself.



The internet is a difficult medium to convey tone across in.  I guess you don't consider it even possible that you might be giving umbrage by saying 1) it is not possible to train SD in martial arts and 2) Redman suits are useless for people who hit hard?



mastercole said:


> A fight against your peer in the dojang and a fight on the street are both competitions. Maybe you want to say tournament?  I'm not talking about tournaments.



No, drilling is not competing, at least in my book.  Starting off a training scenario where a Redman clad attacker has ahold of your arm and your goal is to get away from him is not competing.




mastercole said:


> You think it is impossible for a WTF athlete to decide to kick someone, full force in the groin, back or throat, or punch full force to their face?



It's possible.



mastercole said:


> She would knock the person in the suit out, not a good idea.  Any thing she decided to do would be explosive and extremely powerful.  She developed that skill already over the hours, days, months and years of full contact training.  She don't need the redman, the other students who don't train like she does, they need it.



If you say so.  Are you assuming the person in the Redman suit is some unskilled guy playing dummy?  Let's just say I have found otherwise with regard to the efficacy of Redman training and I will put my hand strikes out there with anyone.  Not everyone outside of tournaments is a so-called enthusiast.     

It is like anything else.  If you see no value in the suit for a given situation (yes even with big hitters like WTF athletes can be), you will not find a good use for it at all.  



mastercole said:


> No mistake here. I'm sure you remember the saying that goes something like "it's the dog in the fight that matters"



Sure.  That's true whether we are 'athletes' or not.


----------



## puunui

dancingalone said:


> That is the conclusion I must form when you have dodged my repeated attempts here and on the other thread to separate the level of practitioner (athlete vs. enthusiast to you) and discuss the value of training for specific activities instead, such as knife defense.  Since you have refused to address my point given multiple opportunities to do so, I must conclude that all you are interested in is what you do within your sport methodology.  If you want to call that tournament fighters, that is fine.




I don't know if that would be an accurate conclusion though. Mastercole has a varied martial arts background including dan rank in Okinawan karate and Hapkido, in addition to holding master level rank in Kukki Taekwondo and Taekkyon. I don't know if I would necessarily peg him as a sport guy only, anymore than I would peg myself under that label. Even though we come from substantially different backgrounds, Mastercole and I sort of followed the same path, the path of two street kids who took an eclectic martial arts approach, primarily for "self defense" or fighting purposes, and eventually came to understand, appreciate and embrace all that Kukki Taekwondo has to offer.


----------



## dancingalone

puunui said:


> I don't know if that would be an accurate conclusion though. Mastercole has a varied martial arts background including dan rank in Okinawan karate and Hapkido, in addition to holding master level rank in Kukki Taekwondo and Taekkyon. I don't know if I would necessarily peg him as a sport guy only, anymore than I would peg myself under that label. Even though we come from substantially different backgrounds, Mastercole and I sort of followed the same path, the path of two street kids who took an eclectic martial arts approach, primarily for "self defense" or fighting purposes, and eventually came to understand, appreciate and embrace all that Kukki Taekwondo has to offer.



I appreciate that.  Really, I'm not even trying to say Master Cole is a sport guy only.  I'm saying his responses to the discussions we are are having seem to come entirely from a sport context, at least from my perspective.

To wit, the insistence that no hard hitter would find a Redman of value in training.  It definitely is of little value if we are going to spar and whack each other, possibly with knockout power.  Yet if we are open minded and think about other usages, I think it's a great tool, even if the participants have top power strikes.


----------



## mastercole

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Sullivan  
There are many skills that go into real world self defense that are not physical skills. Verbal skills are arguably more important than the physical skills, as they can often get you out of more situations than the physical skills can.<<<



puunui said:


> I think you'd be amazed at how elite athletes are trained in both verbal and non-verbal communication skills. Or at least they used to be. The higher you go, the more important these things become. Elite athletes are defending themselves, inside or outside of the ring.



Elite athlete do not compete in a sterile atmosphere, there are many distracting issues that come up, all over the place. As Puunui said, they become very well trained in these communications, how to defend against and attack with it as well. It's part of the psychology.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

puunui said:


> I think you'd be amazed at how elite athletes are trained in both verbal and non-verbal communication skills. Or at least they used to be. The higher you go, the more important these things become. Elite athletes are defending themselves, inside or outside of the ring.


Actually, I wouldn't be amazed.  A lot of people have this idea that elite athlete, or athletes in general, never train for anything but competition, but I think that that is innacurate.  

Most MA athletes are MA athletes because they love the martial arts, not because they just want trophies.  Because the love MA, even though they may focus on competition, chances are, they are much more well rounded than many think that they are.  

Daniel


----------



## mastercole

dancingalone said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by mastercole
> That is according to you, because your focus matches your own agenda. You have ignored the first point of the above definition, "a person who is trained or skilled in exercises" with sports and games being 2nd and 3rd.<<<
> 
> I had a feeling you would seize on that as an out. Think about it logically... does someone training for SD exclusively normally call himself an athlete or what he does 'athletics'? No. There's a reason for that - the word athlete is tied in completely into a sporting competition. If you want to ignore that, it's up to you, but it's not much of a position to stand upon.



It's not an out, it's a fact, there for you and I both to read and it shoots down your claim that an athlete is solely a term for tournament venues. Here is what is states again, for the record: Athlete: "a person who is trained or skilled in exercises"



dancingalone said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by mastercole
> For me, Martial arts do not have the meaning of tournaments (what you call sport). I never said that it held such a meaning for me, or my students. I was talking about my fighters.<<<
> 
> Sorry, but when you use your 'fighters' almost exclusively as examples in the discussion, you connect sport/tournaments to a great degree to what you espouse.



First, all martial arts are sports.  Second, not all of my fighters attend tournaments. I use my fighters exclusively in examples because that is what the discussion was about.



dancingalone said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by mastercole
> Where did I say I was focused on the "sport" aspect? You are assuming that, I never said that. I was having a discussion on a narrow subject, athlete vs non athlete martial artist, you are jumping to conclusions.<<<
> 
> That is the conclusion I must form when you have dodged my repeated attempts here and on the other thread to separate the level of practitioner (athlete vs. enthusiast to you) and discuss the value of training for specific activities instead, such as knife defense. Since you have refused to address my point given multiple opportunities to do so, I must conclude that all you are interested in is what you do within your sport methodology. If you want to call that tournament fighters, that is fine.



The athlete vs. enthusiast are inherent to the discussion of specific activities. Kong Soo Do makes claim that "sport" training does not have much SD value, that scenarios based training does so we have to look at the type of martial artist these different types of training methods create or attract to determine the result.  I have addressed your point, my position is no one is qualified to teach SD, well, maybe the street kid who is a mentor to another street kid, but martial arts does not have anything to do with it.




dancingalone said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by mastercole
> Why would I be shocked by what someone has to say? Up to now, I am perfectly fine with what folks have been saying. BTW, no one needs you to tell them they are speaking out of line, everyone up to now is being civil. If you want to make those comments, I recommend you address them to yourself.<<<
> 
> The internet is a difficult medium to convey tone across in. I guess you don't consider it even possible that you might be giving umbrage by saying 1) it is not possible to train SD in martial arts and 2) Redman suits are useless for people who hit hard?



It's my opinion. Don't be insulted. If you know otherwise, then no big deal. If you are not sure, and I shook your belief system tree, you might want to think about what I claim.



dancingalone said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by mastercole
> A fight against your peer in the dojang and a fight on the street are both competitions. Maybe you want to say tournament? I'm not talking about tournaments.<<<
> 
> No, drilling is not competing, at least in my book.



Read above, I said fighting, I did not say drilling. Fighting is competing.



dancingalone said:


> Starting off a training scenario where a Redman clad attacker has ahold of your arm and your goal is to get away from him is not competing.



That is competing.

All competitions are not tournaments 

Competing: 1. to strive consciously or unconsciously for an objective (as position, profit, or a prize) : 2. be in a state of rivalry

1. What objective would I be striving for?  A position (of freedom from redman)
2. I would be in a state of rivalry with? redman





dancingalone said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by mastercole
> You think it is impossible for a WTF athlete to decide to kick someone, full force in the groin, back or throat, or punch full force to their face?<<<
> 
> It's possible.
> 
> 
> 
> dancingalone said:
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by mastercole
> She would knock the person in the suit out, not a good idea. Any thing she decided to do would be explosive and extremely powerful. She developed that skill already over the hours, days, months and years of full contact training. She don't need the redman, the other students who don't train like she does, they need it.<<<
> 
> If you say so. Are you assuming the person in the Redman suit is some unskilled guy playing dummy?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, our dummy guy was Rob Cleek, Ohio State Taekwondo Association Gold Medalist, NCTA Collegiate Bronze Medalist, World Taekwondo Festival, Korea, Gold Medalist, to name a few.
> He was, still is very skilled.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dancingalone said:
> 
> 
> 
> Let's just say I have found otherwise with regard to the efficacy of Redman training and I will put my hand strikes out there with anyone. Not everyone outside of tournaments is a so-called enthusiast.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are way off the path here. I'm sure you got good skills, that was not my point.
> 
> 
> 
> dancingalone said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is like anything else. If you see no value in the suit for a given situation (yes even with big hitters like WTF athletes can be), you will not find a good use for it at all.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If you had read what I wrote about the suits, we have been using them for our students (not athletes) for over a decade now. I guess you could say I have a vast experience with these suits
> 
> 
> 
> dancingalone said:
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by mastercole
> No mistake here. I'm sure you remember the saying that goes something like "it's the dog in the fight that matters"<<<
> 
> Sure. That's true whether we are 'athletes' or not.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## mastercole

dancingalone said:


> I appreciate that.  Really, I'm not even trying to say Master Cole is a sport guy only.  I'm saying his responses to the discussions we are are having seem to come entirely from a sport context, at least from my perspective.
> 
> To wit, the insistence that no hard hitter would find a Redman of value in training.  It definitely is of little value if we are going to spar and whack each other, possibly with knockout power.  Yet if we are open minded and think about other usages, I think it's a great tool, even if the participants have top power strikes.



Yes, I was limiting my comments to martial arts athletes, fighters, as the comments were that "sport" training had little SD value but scenario training did.

I was taking the fighters side of the debate.  I was never talking about regular students.


----------



## dancingalone

I think we're hitting the point of diminishing returns, sir, but I will try once more.  



mastercole said:


> It's not an out, it's a fact, there for you and I both to read and it shoots down your claim that an athlete is solely a term for tournament venues. Here is what is states again, for the record: Athlete: "a person who is trained or skilled in exercises"



Don't leave out the games and sports part of the definition, lest it becomes meaningless.  If I engage in physical therapy exercises, am I an athlete?  If I exercise my vocal chords in preparation for singing, am I an athlete?  If exercise my mind with a Sudoku puzzle, am I an athlete.

As I've shown above, it would be pedantic to claim athletics does not have a contextual link to a sporting contest somehow.




mastercole said:


> First, all martial arts are sports.  Second, not all of my fighters attend tournaments. I use my fighters exclusively in examples because that is what the discussion was about.



Not all martial arts are sports.  We in Aikikai aikido have no sporting outlet although our Tomiki cousins do.  There are many other examples such as old school Okinawan Te, which has no sparring within it.

As for the nature of the discussion, wellllllllll -



mastercole said:


> I have addressed your point, my position is no one is qualified to teach SD, well, maybe the street kid who is a mentor to another street kid, but martial arts does not have anything to do with it.



No.  What you've done is repeated your assertion that that self-defense cannot be taught.  Yet if I teach someone to block a punch or avoid a knife, is that not self-defense?  Does learning repetitive physical skills to the point that they aid in pattern recognition and self-awareness not equate to self-defense?

To both, I would say yes.



mastercole said:


> It's my opinion. Don't be insulted. If you know otherwise, then no big deal. If you are not sure, and I shook your belief system tree, you might want to think about what I claim.



I've dedicated a lot of sweat and time to my martial arts over the years.  I was a full-time martial artist for over ten years, actively learning all over the world in a variety of disciplines.  Learning, not teaching in a dojang somewhere.  So on some things such as the caliber of what I teach, SD included, I'm very serious about and I will passionately advocate or defend my methods to anyone willing to listen.

I do take your point however.  I can overdo it at times.




mastercole said:


> Read above, I said fighting, I did not say drilling. Fighting is competing.



Arguably fighting is not competing.  Do people in a sparring match fight?  I suppose that depends on your perspective.  I would say not which is why I stated drilling above as the operative term.



mastercole said:


> That is competing.
> 
> All competitions are not tournaments
> 
> Competing: 1. to strive consciously or unconsciously for an objective (as position, profit, or a prize) : 2. be in a state of rivalry
> 
> 1. What objective would I be striving for?  A position (of freedom from redman)
> 2. I would be in a state of rivalry with? redman



I guess you can look at it that way if you want.  <shrugs> It is a drill to me, just like when we work basic throws with a partner. 




dancingalone said:


> No, our dummy guy was Rob Cleek, Ohio State Taekwondo Association Gold Medalist, NCTA Collegiate Bronze Medalist, World Taekwondo Festival, Korea, Gold Medalist, to name a few.
> He was, still is very skilled.



So, Mr. Cleek was blasted each and every time he played attacker?  That is more or less my point.  The caliber and physical characteristics of the person wearing the suit in relation to the defender plays a definite role.  The suit gives the wearer a good margin for error so he can play his role aggressively while at the same time permitting the defender more options and opportunities for striking than can be normally practiced sans suit.



mastercole said:


> You are way off the path here. I'm sure you got good skills, that was not my point.



I only bring up myself and by extension my students as an example because you felt the suit was useless when people can hit very hard.  We physically condition ourselves and our striking weapons.  We use makiwara.  We can punch.  Hard.



mastercole said:


> If you had read what I wrote about the suits, we have been using them for our students (not athletes) for over a decade now. I guess you could say I have a vast experience with these suits



Possibly.  I will let this drop.  I am not interested in saying you are wrong or ignorant.


----------



## Twin Fist

mastercole said:


> First, all martial arts are sports.




bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzt

wrong answer thanks for playing.

just because you can do something in a competition setting, doesnt make it a sport, unless you think speed eating is a sport too....



i am starting to value your opinion......less


----------



## puunui

dancingalone said:


> To wit, the insistence that no hard hitter would find a Redman of value in training.  It definitely is of little value if we are going to spar and whack each other, possibly with knockout power.  Yet if we are open minded and think about other usages, I think it's a great tool, even if the participants have top power strikes.




Then you two have different opinions on the Redman. Personally, I never used one and would like to try one day. Then I can have an opinion on it too.  When I think of Redman, I think of Peyton Quinn's bulletman, which sort of looks like the prototype Iron Man what's his name built when he was imprisoned in the first movie. I would like to wear the suit as well as be the one defending against someone wearing it. I would think that the value of the experience is directly proportional to the ability and skill of the person wearing the Redman.


----------



## puunui

dancingalone said:


> I only bring up myself and by extension my students as an example because you felt the suit was useless when people can hit very hard.  We physically condition ourselves and our striking weapons.  We use makiwara.  We can punch.  Hard.



What do you use to cover the makiwara? Rice rope or something else? Is it in the ground or one of those platform types? We had one in my Shotokan class, but they said it was only for the adults. Funny but I never really saw anyone using it, not even the adults. I did some makiwara with Professor Chow, who had an in ground one at his house. But he conditioned his hands with more hand held makiwara than the kind in the ground. I still have the one he gave me that he made himself. Personally, I prefer chinese hand conditioning, using Jow. I do think that hand conditioning is one of the keys to developing strong hand strikes, whatever method you use.


----------



## dancingalone

puunui said:


> What do you use to cover the makiwara? Rice rope or something else? Is it in the ground or one of those platform types? We had one in my Shotokan class, but they said it was only for the adults. Funny but I never really saw anyone using it, not even the adults. I did some makiwara with Professor Chow, who had an in ground one at his house. But he conditioned his hands with more hand held makiwara than the kind in the ground. I still have the one he gave me that he made himself. Personally, I prefer chinese hand conditioning, using Jow. I do think that hand conditioning is one of the keys to developing strong hand strikes, whatever method you use.



It's just rope I bought at Home Depot.   Cotton if I recall correctly, but the fibers are kind of rough which is  exactly the characteristic I wanted.  Rough enough to cut your knuckle  skin if they are completely unconditioned and you punch incorrectly.  My  teacher says hemp is the best though.   

I have both types of makiwara.  Inside my dojo, the planks are set into  the floor.  There are some overflow makiwara outside which are the  platform type.  They're not used too frequently so they are covered with  a canvas tarp until needed.

At my church, we have a large oak tree that I wrapped some foam padding around with duct tape.  Then an outside striking layer of rope is wound around the padding.  My church TKD class takes turns kicking the tree regularly, and I'll work it too with hand strikes from time to time.  Don't think I'll ever break the tree however unlike makiwara.

I don't have children work with them either.  I've been taught with the adage however that no makiwara practice = no punch either.  Perhaps that is too extreme a viewpoint nowadays.

The stories I have read about Professor Chow said his hands and fingers  were so conditioned they were almost stone-like and scarred to the point  that the skin was black. Was that true?


----------



## puunui

dancingalone said:


> The stories I have read about Professor Chow said his hands and fingers  were so conditioned they were almost stone-like and scarred to the point  that the skin was black. Was that true?



He was a very rough man with very heavy hands. He could probably pound nails into wood with his backfist. His fingers were like chisels and the skin was black, a combination of his racial makeup but also conditioning. He was constantly working out somehow, including his hands and his arms. He wasn't a tall man (5'2" or 3") but he was very powerful and solid. At seventy years old, his biceps looked like apples, and he was in as good a shape or in better shape as Jack Lalane and GM Jhoon Rhee. His main kick was front kick. He was also a wealth of martial arts knowledge. He had a huge library of books and magazines too. I would flip through some of the early Black Belt Magazines at his house and find hand written letters from Ed Parker in between the pages. I remember he had the three volume Hwa Rang Do book series from ohara, which was marked up with a pencil. His whole house was like a martial arts shrine. If I were smarter, I would have studied earlier and longer with him. My uncle has his student in the 1950's and introduced Professor Chow to his wife, so Professor was always grateful about that. He would come visit my uncle on a regular basis growing up (we lived next door) so I saw him growing up semi regularly. He always invited me to train with him, but he was a little crazy looking so I didn't want to join.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

Twin Fist said:


> bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzt
> 
> wrong answer thanks for playing.
> 
> just because you can do something in a competition setting, doesnt make it a sport, unless you think speed eating is a sport too....
> 
> 
> 
> i am starting to value your opinion......less


You beat me to it


----------



## puunui

dancingalone said:


> I have both types of makiwara.  Inside my dojo, the planks are set into  the floor.  There are some overflow makiwara outside which are the  platform type.  They're not used too frequently so they are covered with  a canvas tarp until needed.



The ones inside your dojo, is that at your house? How do you set them into the floor? 




dancingalone said:


> At my church, we have a large oak tree that I wrapped some foam padding around with duct tape.  Then an outside striking layer of rope is wound around the padding.  My church TKD class takes turns kicking the tree regularly, and I'll work it too with hand strikes from time to time.  Don't think I'll ever break the tree however unlike makiwara.



All my teachers who talk about makiwara talk about the importance of the makiwara having some give. Professor Chow said that some Kenpo practitioners would punch walls and that sort of thing but then they ended up with arthritis in their hands. 




dancingalone said:


> I don't have children work with them either.  I've been taught with the adage however that no makiwara practice = no punch either.  Perhaps that is too extreme a viewpoint nowadays.



I asked Chung Do Kwan founder GM LEE Won Kuk about makiwara training and his exact response (with a sparking gleam in his eye) was "No makiwara, no karate". The knuckles of my right hand were tingling when he said that, and I remember feeling guilty for neglecting that aspect of training. I always felt that makiwara training was important if you wanted to be able to shatter the chest armor of a samurai in sort of a "test punch", sort of like how they would test the sharpness and quality of a katana (long samurai sword) by test cutting on a helmet. One of the students of my juniors has a competitor who breaks his hand when punching in USAT National and WTF International Events, and I can't help but wonder if some makiwara training would fix that issue.


----------



## mastercole

dancingalone said:


> I think we're hitting the point of diminishing returns, sir, but I will try once more.
> 
> Don't leave out the games and sports part of the definition, lest it becomes meaningless.



The definitions gives the reader a choice between three activities "exercises, sports, or games"

You could be an athlete in just exercises, just sports, or just games. 

The definition does not make the term "athlete" exclusive to sports and games.  That is the part you are overlooking and confused about.

Athlete: a person who is trained or skilled in exercises, sports, or games requiring physical strength, agility, or stamina


----------



## mastercole

dancingalone said:


> IQuote:
> Originally Posted by mastercole
> First, all martial arts are sports. Second, not all of my fighters attend tournaments. I use my fighters exclusively in examples because that is what the discussion was about.<<<
> 
> Not all martial arts are sports. We in Aikikai aikido have no sporting outlet although our Tomiki cousins do. There are many other examples such as old school Okinawan Te, which has no sparring within it.
> 
> As for the nature of the discussion, wellllllllll -



Old school Okinawa Te enthusiast Funakoshi Gichin Sensei disagrees with you. He said Okinawa Te is a sport.

Aikikai Aikido is also a sport, according to the first point of definition of sport;

sport (spôrt). noun 1. any activity or experience that gives enjoyment or recreation; pastime; diversion

Actually Aikikai Aikido gives all four, making it a super-sport.

1. Aikikai Aikido gives enjoyment. (to it's members)
2. Aikikai Aikido provides recreation.  (for it's practitioners)
3. Aikikai Aikido provides a pastime.  (for it's enthusiast)
4. Aikikai Aikido provides a diversion.  (for all it's participants)

Sport again gives you options. You do not have to go to tournaments to participate in sports, as we see above.


----------



## mastercole

puunui said:


> I don't know if that would be an accurate conclusion though. Mastercole has a varied martial arts background including dan rank in Okinawan karate and Hapkido, in addition to holding master level rank in Kukki Taekwondo and Taekkyon. I don't know if I would necessarily peg him as a sport guy only, anymore than I would peg myself under that label. Even though we come from substantially different backgrounds, Mastercole and I sort of followed the same path, the path of two street kids who took an eclectic martial arts approach, primarily for "self defense" or fighting purposes, and eventually came to understand, appreciate and embrace all that Kukki Taekwondo has to offer.



That is correct. I was desperately searching for anything that might give me an edge and could not seem to get it fast enough.  I really felt my life depended on it.

I doubt they had a series of boxes to check off on our original membership application back then, I think most parents would have solely checked off self defense


----------



## mastercole

dancingalone said:


> I've dedicated a lot of sweat and time to my martial arts over the years.  I was a full-time martial artist for over ten years, actively learning all over the world in a variety of disciplines.  Learning, not teaching in a dojang somewhere.  So on some things such as the caliber of what I teach, SD included, I'm very serious about and I will passionately advocate or defend my methods to anyone willing to listen.
> 
> I do take your point however.  I can overdo it at times.



I would assume that most folks on these boards are active outside of their school and a number of them have over several decades of experience in martial arts.

One thing that does happen, and it maybe more apparent in those that don't get out of their own school much but I see in sometimes in others as well, is that we have to be careful that over time, we don't start to actually believe our own B.S.


----------



## mastercole

dancingalone said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by mastercole
> Read above, I said fighting, I did not say drilling. Fighting is competing.<<<
> 
> Arguably fighting is not competing. Do people in a sparring match fight? I suppose that depends on your perspective. I would say not which is why I stated drilling above as the operative term.



Again and again, the dictionary disagrees with you   As you can see below, the definition of fighting is competing, sparring and even a matter of athletic contest!  Imagine that!

fight n. 1. A violent struggle, (as in)
strife, conflict, contention, feud, quarrel, *contest*, struggle, encounter, row, dispute, disagreement, battle, battle royal, confrontation, controversy, brawl, affray, affair, fray, *bout*, *match*, fisticuffs, *boxing match*, *round*, broil, fracas, difficulty, altercation, bickering, wrangling, riot, argument, dissension, debate, *competition*, *sparring match*, a coming to blows, rivalry, skirmish, scrimmage, clash, scuffle, collision, brush, action, engagement, melee, passage of arms, sortie, pitched battle, tilt, joust, *combat*, *duel*, exchange of blows, *wrestling match*, squabble, *game*, discord, estrangement, hostilities, imbroglio, disturbance, recontre (French), tiff, difference of opinion, falling-out, fuss*, mix-up*, tussle*, scrap*, free-for-all*, ruckus*, run-in*, showdown*, flare-up*, go*, rumpus*, donnybrook*, set-to*, rhubarb*, hassle*; see also dispute.

2. fight, a rather general word for any *contest*, struggle, or quarrel, *stresses physical or hand-to-hand combat*; conflict, which may apply to anything from armed fighting to *mental struggle*, refers to a sharp disagreement or clash, as between opposing groups, interests, or ideas, and emphasizes difficulty of resolution the conflict over slavery; struggle implies great effort or violent exertion, physical or otherwise the struggle for existence; contention most frequently applies to heated verbal strife, or dispute religious contention; contest refers to a *struggle, either friendly or hostile, for supremacy in some matter athletic contests, a contest of wits*


----------



## mastercole

dancingalone said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by mastercole
> That is competing.
> 
> All competitions are not tournaments
> 
> Competing: 1. to strive consciously or unconsciously for an objective (as position, profit, or a prize) : 2. be in a state of rivalry
> 
> 1. What objective would I be striving for? A position (of freedom from redman)
> 2. I would be in a state of rivalry with? redman<<<
> 
> I guess you can look at it that way if you want. <shrugs> It is a drill to me, just like when we work basic throws with a partner.



I'll look at it from the point of view of the actual definition of the word, of course making up your own definitions can make things more exciting 



dancingalone said:


> Possibly.  I will let this drop.  I am not interested in saying you are wrong or ignorant.



Then why bring up "wrong or ignorant"?  If that is what you wish to say, I'm not going to stop you. Before you do, I would recommend that you first take time, slow down and read over the all the post I made above


----------



## mastercole

dancingalone said:


> We physically condition ourselves and our striking weapons. We use makiwara. We can punch. Hard.



The makiwara is something that I have a great interest in.  I have been training with it for about 26 years now. I have also been researching it's practice methods, and have interviewed leading seniors and leading researchers about it's use and positive and negative effects.

Who taught you how to use the makiwara?  What was his name and what Kwan was he from?


----------



## mastercole

Twin Fist said:


> bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzt
> 
> wrong answer thanks for playing.
> 
> just because you can do something in a competition setting, doesnt make it a sport, unless you think speed eating is a sport too....



We are talking about martial arts, not eating. All martial arts are sports, according to the definition of sport.  You should crack a dictionary 



Twin Fist said:


> i am starting to value your opinion......less



Again, I'm quoting the dictionary, you may not like what it states and the facts might sound like hell, but it is fact and I know that stinks to hear that if you tend to make up your own definitions, but it is fact, look it up 

"I never gave anybody hell! I just told the truth and they thought it was hell."  ~ Truman, Harry S


----------



## mastercole

Originally Posted by dancingalone  
To wit, the insistence that no hard hitter would find a Redman of value in training. It definitely is of little value if we are going to spar and whack each other, possibly with knockout power. Yet if we are open minded and think about other usages, I think it's a great tool, even if the participants have top power strikes.<<<<

You are confused again.

I use the redman and the bluemax for my students.

My fighters did not like the redman. I shared with you the opinion of a group of fighters who experienced the suits.  Stop changing around what I said to suit your agenda and stick with facts, which you seem to have a hard time doing.


----------



## mastercole

puunui said:


> What do you use to cover the makiwara? Rice rope or something else? Is it in the ground or one of those platform types? We had one in my Shotokan class, but they said it was only for the adults. Funny but I never really saw anyone using it, not even the adults. I did some makiwara with Professor Chow, who had an in ground one at his house. But he conditioned his hands with more hand held makiwara than the kind in the ground. I still have the one he gave me that he made himself. Personally, I prefer chinese hand conditioning, using Jow. I do think that hand conditioning is one of the keys to developing strong hand strikes, whatever method you use.



There is this Kungfu guy in Little Italy named Craig Anthony, he works at the cigar shop.  Some time back we were talking about kungfu and jow came up.  I told him about your recipe and he got all excited and ask if I could get it.  There is a Chinese Herbal medicine shop in China Town where he can get the stuff.  Is the recipe in Hanja and English?  Is it still available?


----------



## mastercole

Quote:
Originally Posted by Twin Fist  
bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzt

wrong answer thanks for playing.

just because you can do something in a competition setting, doesnt make it a sport, unless you think speed eating is a sport too....



i am starting to value your opinion......less
You beat me to it 



ralphmcpherson said:


> You beat me to it



Ralph, I never expect you or anyone to value my statements, opinion or fact. I don't put them out there to create value for me.  But I would hope that that you could do much better than this...... I assume they have dictionaries in Australia?  If not, it's easy to find one on the web.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

mastercole said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Twin Fist
> bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzt
> 
> wrong answer thanks for playing.
> 
> just because you can do something in a competition setting, doesnt make it a sport, unless you think speed eating is a sport too....
> 
> 
> 
> i am starting to value your opinion......less
> You beat me to it
> 
> 
> 
> Ralph, I never expect you or anyone to value my statements, opinion or fact. I don't put them out there to create value for me.  But I would hope that that you could do much better than this...... I assume they have dictionaries in Australia?  If not, it's easy to find one on the web.


what's a dictionary? Im from australia, I have no idea what you're talking about


----------



## dancingalone

mastercole said:


> The definitions gives the reader a choice between three activities "exercises, sports, or games"
> 
> You could be an athlete in just exercises, just sports, or just games.
> 
> The definition does not make the term "athlete" exclusive to sports and games.  That is the part you are overlooking and confused about.
> 
> Athlete: a person who is trained or skilled in exercises, sports, or games requiring physical strength, agility, or stamina




Why are you skipping over what I said last night?  That without a sporting context to tie into exercise, we would be forced to consider things like Soduku or singing athletics, as they too have 'exercises'.

Why do you also ignore the longstanding convention that martial activities outside of sporting contests don't use the term athlete or athletics to refer to themselves?  For very good reason, I might add since those words have connotations undesirable in the pursuit of goals that don't involve a medal or trophy.

Do you know the etymology of the word athlete?  It may have evolved from the Greek word _athlon_, or contest or prize.

Surely you can see that your argument for juxtaposing martial art and athletics is beyond credulity?



			
				mastercole said:
			
		

> You are confused again.
> 
> I use the redman and the bluemax for my students.
> 
> My fighters did not like the redman. I shared with you the opinion of a  group of fighters who experienced the suits.  Stop changing around what I  said to suit your agenda and stick with facts, which you seem to have a  hard time doing.



Let me try to simplify for you.  You've argued that hard hitters would not find the Redman useful to train with.  I've argued the opposite, that when you do other things other than sparring, full contact or otherwise, that the suit can be a very good tool to train with.  I don't care about any artificial distinction you choose to make between your 'fighters' and your apparently plebeian regular students.  Hard hitting is hard hitting.  What matters is the ACTIVITY itself, as I repeated to you numerous times now.  And if you practice an activity suited to training with the Redman, such as SD with some tactical weapon considerations, amazingly the time spent with it might actually be worthwhile.



			
				mastercole said:
			
		

> Again and again, the dictionary disagrees with you



Real usage does not.  You are the one way out on the limb, trying to equate martial art to athletics, a position that which is not universally nor even widely held by other martial artists.



			
				mastercole said:
			
		

> Old school Okinawa Te enthusiast Funakoshi Gichin Sensei disagrees with you. He said Okinawa Te is a sport.
> 
> Aikikai Aikido is also a sport, according to the first point of definition of sport;
> 
> sport (spôrt). noun 1. any activity or experience that gives enjoyment or recreation; pastime; diversion
> 
> Actually Aikikai Aikido gives all four, making it a super-sport.
> 
> 1. Aikikai Aikido gives enjoyment. (to it's members)
> 2. Aikikai Aikido provides recreation.  (for it's practitioners)
> 3. Aikikai Aikido provides a pastime.  (for it's enthusiast)
> 4. Aikikai Aikido provides a diversion.  (for all it's participants)
> 
> Sport again gives you options. You do not have to go to tournaments to participate in sports, as we see above.



Are you just engaging in debating tactics for the fun of it?  Do you genuinely believe what you wrote?  Really?

First, Funakoshi Sensei's students did indeed move KARATE-DO (not Te) into the sporting direction.  Perhaps Funakoshi Sensei too felt this was a proper course to set for his art to gain acceptance in Japanese society.  That said, many of his contemporaries, including his senior Miyagi, Chojun Sensei most assuredly did not share the same view about adding competition into their art.  I'm further most bemused by the thought of the Okinawan masters from the 1800s when Te would have been the most likely name equating what they did to sport.

As for aikido, I know the vast majority of my contemporaries and seniors would find your assertion misguided at best.  As would the Doshu and his shihan.  Unless you know something that the people who actually practice the art don't?  No, we don't consider aikido a sport.  Nor should you, unless again you find that precarious limb something pleasant to perch upon.



			
				mastercole said:
			
		

> One thing that does happen, and it maybe more apparent in those that  don't get out of their own school much but I see in sometimes in others  as well, is that we have to be careful that over time, we don't start to  actually believe our own B.S.



Generally good advice.  Would that we all follow it when appropriate.


----------



## dancingalone

puunui said:


> The ones inside your dojo, is that at your house? How do you set them into the floor?



There is a second layer of wooden flooring sitting directly on the concrete.  The makiwara post is mounted onto this layer with spring coils to allow it to move and spring back when struck.  Above this layer is the 'true' layer of wooden flooring that we step on.  There are slots cut through it from which the makiwara post comes up through.




puunui said:


> All my teachers who talk about makiwara talk about the importance of the makiwara having some give. Professor Chow said that some Kenpo practitioners would punch walls and that sort of thing but then they ended up with arthritis in their hands.



I am mindful of that.  The tree is an experiment of sorts.  You heard stories no doubt of various MA legends who practiced their strikes upon trees.  This is my attempt to play around with the myths.  I have found it beneficial, although I understand it is not for everyone.


----------



## mastercole

dancingalone said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by mastercole
> The definitions gives the reader a choice between three activities "exercises, sports, or games"
> 
> You could be an athlete in just exercises, just sports, or just games.
> 
> The definition does not make the term "athlete" exclusive to sports and games. That is the part you are overlooking and confused about.
> 
> Athlete: a person who is trained or skilled in exercises, sports, or games requiring physical strength, agility, or stamina<<<
> 
> Why are you skipping over what I said last night? That without a sporting context to tie into exercise, we would be forced to consider things like Soduku or singing athletics, as they too have 'exercises'.



But we are not addressing Soduku or singing, we are considering marital arts. Stop getting of subject. I addressed your erroneous comments, you just have to learn to read the definition for what it says, not what you want it to say.



dancingalone said:


> Why do you also ignore the longstanding convention that martial activities outside of sporting contests don't use the term athlete or athletics to refer to themselves?



I don't ignore it, I acknowledge that it happens in the small pond that it's proponents dwell in, and I state that it's not an issue among all the little fish in the big martial arts pond.



dancingalone said:


> For very good reason, I might add since those words have connotations undesirable in the pursuit of goals that don't involve a medal or trophy



Being a martial arts athlete is undesirable?  Maybe in the small pond.



dancingalone said:


> Do you know the etymology of the word athlete? It may have evolved from the Greek word athlon, or contest or prize.



Yes, and athlete can train for either, contest *or* a prize.  Take note of the word *"or"* 

What is a contest?  Definition time again!

con·test (k&#601;n test&#8242;; for n. kän&#8242;test&#8242 transitive verb 1. to fight for (ground, a military position, etc.); struggle to win or keep



dancingalone said:


> Surely you can see that your argument for juxtaposing martial art and athletics is beyond credulity?



Surely not, I mean every single definition of athlete, contest, competition, sparring, etc has proved athlete and martial artist is a perfect match, so there you have it


----------



## mastercole

dancingalone said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by mastercole
> You are confused again.
> 
> I use the redman and the bluemax for my students.
> 
> My fighters did not like the redman. I shared with you the opinion of a group of fighters who experienced the suits. Stop changing around what I said to suit your agenda and stick with facts, which you seem to have a hard time doing.<<<
> 
> Let me try to simplify for you. You've argued that hard hitters would not find the Redman useful to train with. I've argued the opposite



Oh, your explanations are simple enough. Let me recap for you:  [My fighters did not like the redman.]  Do you understand my statement?  The one in between the [ ] ?????


----------



## mastercole

dancingalone said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by mastercole
> Again and again, the dictionary disagrees with you<<<
> 
> Real usage does not.



Get real. The definitions are not disputable, they are based on current usage, not what you think they should be.



dancingalone said:


> You are the one way out on the limb, trying to equate martial art to athletics, a position that which is not universally nor even widely held by other martial artists.



Talk about out on a limb.  LOL!

Let's see, how popular is MMA these days?  Hummmmmm.  Widely watched, widely participated in. What do these guys call themselves?  Martial Arts Athletes! Amazing!

Again, they exist, whether you want them to or not.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Come on guys, just clarify what you mean by what you say and move on.  

Now that I know what Mastercole is using the broader definitions of sport and athlete, I'll simply take that into account when conversing with him.  

I know that Dancingalone uses narrower definitions of sport and athlete.  I simply take that into account when conversing with him.

Daniel


----------



## mastercole

dancingalone said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by mastercole
> Old school Okinawa Te enthusiast Funakoshi Gichin Sensei disagrees with you. He said Okinawa Te is a sport.
> 
> sport (spôrt). noun 1. any activity or experience that gives enjoyment or recreation; pastime; diversion
> 
> Sport again gives you options. You do not have to go to tournaments to participate in sports, as we see above.<<<
> 
> Are you just engaging in debating tactics for the fun of it? Do you genuinely believe what you wrote? Really?
> 
> First, Funakoshi Sensei's students did indeed move KARATE-DO (not Te) into the sporting direction. Perhaps Funakoshi Sensei too felt this was a proper course to set for his art to gain acceptance in Japanese society.



Again, you don't have to go to tournaments to be considered a sport.

It's not perhaps Funakoshi this or that, read his book. He writes about to-te jitsu being selected for physical education in the Okinawan school system, athletic development and martial arts termed as a sport.  You should do some research before you make off the cuff comments.



dancingalone said:


> That said, many of his contemporaries, including his senior Miyagi, Chojun Sensei most assuredly did not share the same view about adding competition into their art. I'm further most bemused by the thought of the Okinawan masters from the 1800s when Te would have been the most likely name equating what they did to sport.



Again you are confused, I nor Funakoshi Sensei were talking about tournaments, we are talking about sport.


----------



## mastercole

dancingalone said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by mastercole
> 
> Aikikai Aikido is also a sport, according to the first point of definition of sport;
> 
> sport (spôrt). noun 1. any activity or experience that gives enjoyment or recreation; pastime; diversion
> 
> Actually Aikikai Aikido gives all four, making it a super-sport.
> 
> 1. Aikikai Aikido gives enjoyment. (to it's members)
> 2. Aikikai Aikido provides recreation. (for it's practitioners)
> 3. Aikikai Aikido provides a pastime. (for it's enthusiast)
> 4. Aikikai Aikido provides a diversion. (for all it's participants)
> 
> Sport again gives you options. You do not have to go to tournaments to participate in sports, as we see above.<<<
> 
> Are you just engaging in debating tactics for the fun of it? Do you genuinely believe what you wrote? Really?
> 
> As for aikido, I know the vast majority of my contemporaries and seniors would find your assertion misguided at best. As would the Doshu and his shihan. Unless you know something that the people who actually practice the art don't? No, we don't consider aikido a sport. Nor should you, unless again you find that precarious limb something pleasant to perch upon.



Wow, this is all going to come as a BIG surprise to you!

The Doshu and his All Japan Aikido Federation highly disagrees with you, from their own account, they consider Aikido, a sport even though it may not YET be tournament material.  Consider this:

The Doshu even moved the All Japan Aikido Federation to join the International Aikido Federation and supported Aikido's entrance into the SportAccord Combat Games.  *Aikido is one of the 15 martial arts sport featured in the 2013 Combat Games.* (The Doshu is even organizing the next Aikido Congress at the Olympic Memorial Youth Center in Toyko, a famous sports center).  Check this out 

Aikido Enters World Combat Games as Event at SportAccord - St. Petersburg, Russia

The World Combat *Games* are a stage for the martial arts and combat sports.They showcase Olympic and non-Olympic martial arts and combat sports, among them Aikido, Boxing, Judo, Ju-Jitsu, Karate, Kendo, Kickboxing, Muaythai, Sambo, Sumo, Taekwondo, Wrestling, and Wushu. Featuring the best *athletes of each sport, the Combat Games are a top-quality sporting event.*  But the Combat Games are not only about sports. They are accompanied by a rich and entertaining cultural program that reflects the ancient traditions and values of martial arts as well as well as their contribution to modern society. 

The next World Combat Games will be in 2013. 


Athletes Embrace First World Combat Games 

The first edition of the SportAccord World Combat Games took place from August 28 to September 5, 2010 in Beijing. Over 1000 athletes from all five continents participated and about the same number of volunteers helped to deliver the event. During the eight days of competition, 118 gold medals were awarded. The colourful Opening Ceremony with spectacular show elements took place in the Beijing National Indoor Stadium and almost all of the 16.000 seats were filled. 

For many athletes the Combat Games 2010 were the first opportunity to take part in a multi-sports event. &#8220;I am impressed by the size and the scope of these Combat Games. I am competing since more than 20 years now, and have been to three world championships, but nothing compares to this here. This week has been a great experience,&#8221; says Thomas Le Cuyer (USA), bronze medal in 70 kg Men&#8217;s Grappling. To learn more about the World Combat Games 2010 in Beijing 

SportAccord 2013
Written by Peter Goldsbury	   
Sunday, 10 April 2011 21:27
The SportAccord General Meeting was held in London on Saturday, April 8, 2011.
The IAF was represented at the General Meeting by Peter Goldsbury, IAF Chairman, Stefan Stenudd, IAF Vice-Chairman and August Dragt, IAF Assistant General Secretary. A special guest was Lydia la Riviere Zeijdel, who was the winner of a Spirit of Sport award for her work with the disabled.

During the General Meeting it was announced that the next SportAccord World Combat Games will be held in October 2013 in the Russian city of St Petersburg.

As one of the fifteen martial arts and combat sports federations within SportAccord, the IAF will be be present in St Petersburg and will give a demonstration. Nothing has been arranged yet, it is hoped that a large aikido training seminar will be held to coincide with the IAF demonstration.

Further news will be given in due course, but the preparation for the IAF demonstration starts NOW.

Peter Goldsbury
IAF Chairman"

Wow, your own organization agrees with me on terms like games, sports, martial arts athletes, etc. 

Guess your out on that limb you speak about.....


----------



## mastercole

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Come on guys, just clarify what you mean by what you say and move on.
> 
> Now that I know what Mastercole is using the broader definitions of sport and athlete, I'll simply take that into account when conversing with him.
> 
> I know that Dancingalone uses narrower definitions of sport and athlete.  I simply take that into account when conversing with him.
> 
> Daniel



I am using terms commonly used by the parent organizations of the martial arts Dancingalone likes to refer to, not my own.


----------



## mastercole

Dancingalone, 

Now that I have given you the details of sports, martial arts athletes, fighting, and a bunch of other things, could you please answer my questions.

Thank you so much.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

mastercole said:


> I am using terms commonly used by the parent organizations of the martial arts Dancingalone likes to refer to, not my own.


Doesn't matter if they are his own, your own, or someone else's own.  Once you each know what the other means when they they say "athlete" then move on with your conversation.  The objective is to know what the person you're talking to is saying.  You've each made your point about why you feel that the word should be used in the way that you are using it.  You each know what the other is saying.  No point in getting stuck in a terminology debate.  

Essentially, you are arguing over which definition is the one used by most people.  If both of your dictionary definitions fit what the dictionary says, and if each of you has clarified which definition you are using, then move forward with whatever it was you were discussing beforehand.

My comment was directed to both of you, by the way.  Keep at it if you want; no skin off my back.  But your conversation might be more productive if you'd both just move on.

Daniel


----------



## dancingalone

I am amused.  You are trying SO hard to make aikido into something that it is not just to 'win' an argument.  It's obvious you don't know much about aikido - you've just googled something to try to bolster your case.

From your very own source:  http://www.aikido-international.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=15&Itemid=29

Here are some highlights that you might find interesting.  I certainly did.

"As a member of the IWGA, the IAF has participated in the World Games.  *Though Aikido does  not hold competitions, participation in the World  Games is an important way of making aikido  better known.* The IAF  participated in the last World Games, held in Germany in 2005.* An aikido  training course, open to everybody, is generally held on the occasion  of these events.*

The IAF also took part in the Sportaccord Combat Games, which took place  in Beijing, China, in 2010. For these Games, over 70 *participants  assembled and gave demonstrations* over three days. The demonstrations  culminated in two special demonstrations given by shihans, Christian  Tissier Shihan (7th dan)  from the FFAAA (France) and Yoshiaki Yokota  Shihan (7th dan), from the Aikikai Hombu Dojo in Japan. The next  Sportaccord World Combat Games is planned for 2013. The IAF will  participate in these Games and give an international demonstration."

Sounds like it was a good time.  Lots of training seminars and demonstrations which are frequent activities in aikido gatherings.

The same article by Mr. Goldbury lists these achievements of the IAF.

"Since its foundation in 1976, the IAF has also been able to fulfil several important functions:​ 1. *The IAF has provided a means whereby aikido  practitioners from all over the world can meet and practise the art  together under the direction of high-ranking teachers*, especially those  teachers directly affiliated to the Aikikai Hombu.​ 2. The IAF has provided an open forum in which aikido  organisations affiliated to the Aikikai can meet in friendship and  discuss matters of common interest.​ 3. The IAF has provided a forum for discussion between  these aikido organisations and instructors affiliated  to the Aikikai  Hombu who reside abroad.​ 4. The IAF has, through its congresses and other  meetings, provided an official channel of  communication between aikido  organisations and the Aikikai Hombu.​ 5. At a national and a continental level, the IAF has,  through its member federations, helped to sow the seeds of aikido on new  ground: to introduce and spread the art in countries where it  did not  exist.​ 6. The IAF has engaged in official contacts with various  officially recognised sports bodies and has thus shown the face of  aikido on occasions like the World Games and the Sportaccord Combat  Games, where the art risks being misunderstood. 
*The risks of  misunderstanding exist, because aikido is not a sport in one  commonly-accepted sense of the term,  for it does not hold competitions.*​ 7. The IAFs status as a recognised international  federation has been of great assistance in enabling  some member  federations to gain recognition from their own government authorities. 
Not all members need such recognition, but some doand this is a fact which is of some importance."​
So they are all about providing Hombu-related training activities while trying to foster awareness of aikido as a martial art world-wide.  Laudable goals.

Sport?  I think not.








mastercole said:


> Wow, this is all going to come as a BIG surprise to you!
> 
> The Doshu and his All Japan Aikido Federation highly disagrees with you, from their own account, they consider Aikido, a sport even though it may not YET be tournament material.  Consider this:
> 
> The Doshu even moved the All Japan Aikido Federation to join the International Aikido Federation and supported Aikido's entrance into the SportAccord Combat Games.  *Aikido is one of the 15 martial arts sport featured in the 2013 Combat Games.* (The Doshu is even organizing the next Aikido Congress at the Olympic Memorial Youth Center in Toyko, a famous sports center).  Check this out
> 
> Aikido Enters World Combat Games as Event at SportAccord - St. Petersburg, Russia
> 
> The World Combat *Games* are a stage for the martial arts and combat sports.They showcase Olympic and non-Olympic martial arts and combat sports, among them Aikido, Boxing, Judo, Ju-Jitsu, Karate, Kendo, Kickboxing, Muaythai, Sambo, Sumo, Taekwondo, Wrestling, and Wushu. Featuring the best *athletes of each sport, the Combat Games are a top-quality sporting event.*  But the Combat Games are not only about sports. They are accompanied by a rich and entertaining cultural program that reflects the ancient traditions and values of martial arts as well as well as their contribution to modern society.
> 
> The next World Combat Games will be in 2013.
> 
> 
> Athletes Embrace First World Combat Games
> 
> The first edition of the SportAccord World Combat Games took place from August 28 to September 5, 2010 in Beijing. Over 1000 athletes from all five continents participated and about the same number of volunteers helped to deliver the event. During the eight days of competition, 118 gold medals were awarded. The colourful Opening Ceremony with spectacular show elements took place in the Beijing National Indoor Stadium and almost all of the 16.000 seats were filled.
> 
> For many athletes the Combat Games 2010 were the first opportunity to take part in a multi-sports event. I am impressed by the size and the scope of these Combat Games. I am competing since more than 20 years now, and have been to three world championships, but nothing compares to this here. This week has been a great experience, says Thomas Le Cuyer (USA), bronze medal in 70 kg Mens Grappling. To learn more about the World Combat Games 2010 in Beijing
> 
> SportAccord 2013
> Written by Peter Goldsbury
> Sunday, 10 April 2011 21:27
> The SportAccord General Meeting was held in London on Saturday, April 8, 2011.
> The IAF was represented at the General Meeting by Peter Goldsbury, IAF Chairman, Stefan Stenudd, IAF Vice-Chairman and August Dragt, IAF Assistant General Secretary. A special guest was Lydia la Riviere Zeijdel, who was the winner of a Spirit of Sport award for her work with the disabled.
> 
> During the General Meeting it was announced that the next SportAccord World Combat Games will be held in October 2013 in the Russian city of St Petersburg.
> 
> As one of the fifteen martial arts and combat sports federations within SportAccord, the IAF will be be present in St Petersburg and will give a demonstration. Nothing has been arranged yet, it is hoped that a large aikido training seminar will be held to coincide with the IAF demonstration.
> 
> Further news will be given in due course, but the preparation for the IAF demonstration starts NOW.
> 
> Peter Goldsbury
> IAF Chairman"
> 
> Wow, your own organization agrees with me on terms like games, sports, martial arts athletes, etc.
> 
> Guess your out on that limb you speak about.....


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## Twin Fist

this is getting boring. FAST

have a nice day






mastercole said:


> We are talking about martial arts, not eating. All martial arts are sports, according to the definition of sport.  You should crack a dictionary
> 
> 
> 
> Again, I'm quoting the dictionary, you may not like what it states and the facts might sound like hell, but it is fact and I know that stinks to hear that if you tend to make up your own definitions, but it is fact, look it up
> 
> "I never gave anybody hell! I just told the truth and they thought it was hell."  ~ Truman, Harry S


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## mastercole

dancingalone said:


> I am amused.  You are trying SO hard to make aikido into something that it is not just to 'win' an argument.  It's obvious you don't know much about aikido - you've just googled something to try to bolster your case.
> 
> From your very own source:  http://www.aikido-international.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=15&Itemid=29
> 
> Here are some highlights that you might find interesting.  I certainly did.
> 
> "As a member of the IWGA, the IAF has participated in the World Games.  *Though Aikido does  not hold competitions, participation in the World  Games is an important way of making aikido  better known.* The IAF  participated in the last World Games, held in Germany in 2005.* An aikido  training course, open to everybody, is generally held on the occasion  of these events.*
> 
> The IAF also took part in the Sportaccord Combat Games, which took place  in Beijing, China, in 2010. For these Games, over 70 *participants  assembled and gave demonstrations* over three days. The demonstrations  culminated in two special demonstrations given by shihans, Christian  Tissier Shihan (7th dan)  from the FFAAA (France) and Yoshiaki Yokota  Shihan (7th dan), from the Aikikai Hombu Dojo in Japan. The next  Sportaccord World Combat Games is planned for 2013. The IAF will  participate in these Games and give an international demonstration."
> 
> Sounds like it was a good time.  Lots of training seminars and demonstrations which are frequent activities in aikido gatherings.
> 
> The same article by Mr. Goldbury lists these achievements of the IAF.
> 
> "Since its foundation in 1976, the IAF has also been able to fulfil several important functions:​ 1. *The IAF has provided a means whereby aikido  practitioners from all over the world can meet and practise the art  together under the direction of high-ranking teachers*, especially those  teachers directly affiliated to the Aikikai Hombu.​ 2. The IAF has provided an open forum in which aikido  organisations affiliated to the Aikikai can meet in friendship and  discuss matters of common interest.​ 3. The IAF has provided a forum for discussion between  these aikido organisations and instructors affiliated  to the Aikikai  Hombu who reside abroad.​ 4. The IAF has, through its congresses and other  meetings, provided an official channel of  communication between aikido  organisations and the Aikikai Hombu.​ 5. At a national and a continental level, the IAF has,  through its member federations, helped to sow the seeds of aikido on new  ground: to introduce and spread the art in countries where it  did not  exist.​ 6. The IAF has engaged in official contacts with various  officially recognised sports bodies and has thus shown the face of  aikido on occasions like the World Games and the Sportaccord Combat  Games, where the art risks being misunderstood.
> *The risks of  misunderstanding exist, because aikido is not a sport in one  commonly-accepted sense of the term,  for it does not hold competitions.*​ 7. The IAFs status as a recognised international  federation has been of great assistance in enabling  some member  federations to gain recognition from their own government authorities.
> Not all members need such recognition, but some doand this is a fact which is of some importance."​
> So they are all about providing Hombu-related training activities while trying to foster awareness of aikido as a martial art world-wide.  Laudable goals.
> 
> Sport?  I think not.



Again, you are confused.

That is why I wrote: "they consider Aikido, a sport even though it may *not YET be tournament material*"

I never said they were competing against each other.  But I did say the Aikido is a sport.

From their own words *"aikido is not a sport in one commonly-accepted sense of the term,  for it does not hold competitions.*

But it is a sport in another commonly-accepted sense of the term, for it is "*sport (spôrt). noun 1. any activity or experience that gives enjoyment or recreation; pastime; diversion*

I think the Doshu would agree, shall we write him and find out?


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## dancingalone

mastercole said:


> I think the Doshu would agree, shall we write him and find out?



Go ahead.


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## Twin Fist

you guys are feeding the troll


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## ralphmcpherson

The problem is that within their own org some people get so high up that people dare not question them and follow them blindly. Then they come to an open forum where people have opinions that differ to theirs and arent afraid to voice them. They are not used to this and go into meltdown. This is a large part of the reason that we dont get involved with large orgs. Basically people try to deify themselves. Their opinion is just that, OPINION, not gospel.


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## ATACX GYM

Mastercole? Dancingalone? I think you're BOTH right.

Clearly the Navy SEALS are highly fit and perform athletically.Clearly they employ all of the cutting edge sport sciences relative to the pursuit of their specific goal.Clearly there are shooting tournies and competitions wherein high end competitors can go Force on Force against each other.Clearly,the SEALS and any other elite force worldwide are not participating in tournies,games,matches,etc. and they clearly use every bit of their activities--including the absolutely mandatory,absolutely vital athletic attributes that they've assiduously cultivated like the athletes that they are--in pursuit of sneaking and peeking,shooting and looting,and all that other fun stuff.

High end physical performance requires athletic training.Period.Full stop.This athletic training doesn't necessarily find its way into commonly understood means of athletic striving visavis sports.Period.Full stop. Therefore the Navy SEALS are clearly athletically gifted with sharply superior physical attributes that are assiduously cultivated by regular training...I mean,not just running,not just lifting weights or doing a gajillion pushups situps or whatever in the sand or the ocean.You can take drawing your gun,storming a house,CQB dynamic entries and exits,HALOs,exfils,reaching LZs and everything and format them into sport specific drills that absolutely mandate athletic attributes and merge them seamlessly with SD concerns that aren't remotely a part of what is commonly (mis)understood as athletics.

We take this exact same approach and apply it to civilian concerns in civilian martial arts.From tournies to civilian self defense.Sport methods,sport sciences,sport principles formatted for and reflecting whatever the specific activity is: defending yourself from a Red Man suited guy grabbing your wrist and rockin a knife in the other hand,or defending yourself from that lightning fast thunderously powerful kicking and punching Olympic demigod facing you.Or you might have to work all of these scenarios (with less athleticism but still significantly above the norm) when facing another guy in a kali or Gathering of the Packs kali tudo competition which translates DIRECTLY into self-defense AND sports without any real effort at all.Aikido guys practice SD but neither they nor anyone else can reliably execute their techs against resisting live opponents without athletic attributes.There may be methods wherein we can reduce the supremacy of athletic attributes but it's still crucial to performance...especially when the shtf.

In my Gym you will face all of them at once.Literally.There will be a guy grabbing you.Armed and/or unarmed,you won't know off top.You will be facing his buddies,any or all of whom may be "armed" with practice weapons which still pack a wallop.What you must achieve is directly dependant upon the specifics of the drill,and you have no chance of successfully doing ANYTHING whatsoever in these SD situations if you're not athletic...although the scenario you face is not at all one that you'll face in almost any competition (except Force on Force maybe).

So yeah.We're all in this together.

I'll sum this up by quoting an appropriate passage I saw years ago on the StraightBlastGym website:

"To sum up the street versus sports argument: Circumstances and tactics change, but the delivery systems, conditioning, and positions remain identical throughout. It is something that can be proven and shown within the realm of scenarios, resisting opponents, and the field. It's not open to speculation, although many wish it was. It is common sense really, but lost on many."

In my Gym,one of our guiding principles (and a part of my sig) is this:

IT'S NOT JUST WHAT YOU KNOW,IT'S HOW YOU TRAIN. Which means exactly the same thing...and then some.Lol.


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## texas_rebel_1980

in the school we go to, everyone spars. my children, 4,6,8,10 spar against everyone as well, including BBs. now the BBs don't blast them, but when they are not defending themselves or not using techniques they will pop them!

i just started and i spar everyone in the class. the instructor has us spar on wednesday nights and its round robin for two hours. i am beat after the class but love the lessons learned!


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## ATACX GYM

texas_rebel_1980 said:


> in the school we go to, everyone spars. my children, 4,6,8,10 spar against everyone as well, including BBs. now the BBs don't blast them, but when they are not defending themselves or not using techniques they will pop them!
> 
> i just started and i spar everyone in the class. the instructor has us spar on wednesday nights and its round robin for two hours. i am beat after the class but love the lessons learned!


 

Very glad to read this post,and your children are real troopers! Congrats to you your whole family and your instructor!


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## achaeon

I'm a white belt and I already spar. I find it very useful on how to practically apply what I'm learning.


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## ks - learning to fly

We start sparring at yellow belt and it is mandatory - especially for Dan testing where it's 2 on 1 - if you're not tested on what you've learned, how do you progress??  I love sparring!!


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## Rumy73

Sparring has a role in a student's development. Good sparring is about the whole package of movement, timing and hitting. Simply flailing away teaches little. I am a dan member, and I still spar BUT the tone is always respectful. I set limits: contact is medium; head shots are rarely part of the equation, unless it is another person who I know and trust. In such a case, it is light contact with no deliberate shots to the front of face or chin. For me, sparring is connecting skills, conditioning, footwork and tactics with safety. Outside the dojang, I duties as a husband and father. I have no ego on the line. It is a learning experience. I cannot afford unnecessary injury. Nor do I tempt fate. When a person with a different agenda wants to spar, I refer him to another partner.


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