# all ma are sport



## Manny (Feb 22, 2010)

Reading Terry latest post I start thinking and I enden with this, what is yudo/judo? well as long as I know is the gentle art,Dr.Kano created judo from jujitsu if I recall trying to softhen the jujitsu and thus making judo more sport oriented, so judo could be trained for more people in sporting dojos withpout killing each other, the rest is history judo was the fisrt oriental ma to become a olimpic sport.
What about Karate, Mr.Funakoshi the creator of the sport karate did the same, he gave karate to the masses in a sporty way because before him the only karate fights we know were for honor in a battlefield,but sensei Funakoshi sportized the okinawan karate and invented the Shoto-Kan karate and this is the more practiced karate around the world with very big tournaments.

So we don't have to worry people telling us TKD is a sport and is worthless form SD side, let the people chat, we know our MA can be as efective as any other.

Manny


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 22, 2010)

Read about the early days of Kano Jigoro and Judo and the training and proving (challenge matches) they did. I doubt many of us would survive it today


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## JWLuiza (Feb 22, 2010)

I disagree with your premise. Not all MAs are sport. AFAIK, Koryu Uchinadi is not practiced for sport, nor does it train sport like drills for fighting. MMA is 100% sport oriented, yet has drastic SD benefits. Yes, TKD gets a bad rep as a only a "sport", but that stems from schools who do focus mostly/only on the sport aspects.

Also, I think your statement that TKD can be just as effective as other martial arts misses the point. Each martial art (and the influence of the training methods employed) has its own set of scenarios/skills that it will be effective in neutralizing. While TKD may be effective in SD situations, other martial arts may be more effective or provide effectiveness sooner in a students learning because they may practice a SD mindset more frequently and more intensely than a MA that has a heavy sports focus.


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## Manny (Feb 22, 2010)

JWLuiza said:


> I disagree with your premise. Not all MAs are sport. AFAIK, Koryu Uchinadi is not practiced for sport, nor does it train sport like drills for fighting. MMA is 100% sport oriented, yet has drastic SD benefits. Yes, TKD gets a bad rep as a only a "sport", but that stems from schools who do focus mostly/only on the sport aspects.
> 
> Also, I think your statement that TKD can be just as effective as other martial arts misses the point. Each martial art (and the influence of the training methods employed) has its own set of scenarios/skills that it will be effective in neutralizing. While TKD may be effective in SD situations, other martial arts may be more effective or provide effectiveness sooner in a students learning because they may practice a SD mindset more frequently and more intensely than a MA that has a heavy sports focus.


 
Thank you for sharing. For me TKD can be as efective as other MA in SD esenarios, karate can be efective, aikido can be efective,judo can be efective, any MA is better than NO MA, that's what I am talking about it.

Manny


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 22, 2010)

JWLuiza said:


> While TKD may be effective in SD situations, other martial arts may be more effective or provide effectiveness sooner in a students learning because they may *practice a SD mindset more frequently and more intensely* than a MA that has a heavy sports focus.


 
As did TKD prior to becoming an Olympic sport


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## JWLuiza (Feb 22, 2010)

and some still do, that's why I used the word "may"


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## granfire (Feb 22, 2010)

Well, unless one has a job that brings them in contact with dangerous individuals (or groups) or is outright stupid, the majority of us will never use MA in ernest (and I try to live to be 100 proving this point!  )

The question is, how do you train for combat without killing all your troops? I suppose you have to get close enough to the kill, hoping that adrenalin lets you finish the job.

What is the running joke: Judo is Jujitzu you do with friends? 

I t is somewhat of an eternal problem.

Then again, there are the clear deviation from Martial Arts that really only a person with blinders on can mistake for anything but sport...(then, even the UFC is not 'combat'. Rolling around on the floor hitting each other in the head is not effective...but you just can't rip another competitior's throat out...or separate him from his eyeballs..)


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## dianhsuhe (Feb 22, 2010)

Manny-  Are you contending that all martial arts are sports?

If so, I would have to disagree.  Aikido, Aikijutsu and Iaido come to mind as arts that are nowhere near being a sport. Kara-Ho Kempo was also designed with this in mind.  "Kara-Ho is to defend yourself in the street FIRST, everything else is second!" (Professor Chow)

Keep in mind the mandate comes not from the style/ system, it comes from the teacher/ practicioner.  Your own TKD is a great example.  It is famous for being a sport since it is a part of the Olympics, but there are TKD folks who train for absolute street war.  

I think both are beneficial but have chosen non-sport as a personal preference.

Take care Manny!


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 22, 2010)

dianhsuhe said:


> Manny- Are you contending that all martial arts are sports?
> 
> If so, I would have to disagree. Aikido, Aikijutsu and Iaido come to mind as arts that are nowhere near being a sport. Kara-Ho Kempo was also designed with this in mind. "Kara-Ho is to defend yourself in the street FIRST, everything else is second!" (Professor Chow)
> 
> ...


 
Neither are most of these


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## Steve (Feb 22, 2010)

I'm not sure that the history of Judo is as you believe.  While Kano had intended to simplify jujutsu techniques, I think it was to make it more effective, not softer.


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## Dave Leverich (Feb 22, 2010)

My understanding of it was that so he could do all techniques with intent, without crippling the opponent. IE. Alive style training.


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## Twin Fist (Feb 22, 2010)

MY martial Art isnt a sport manny

maybe yours is, mine isnt

I have to severly dumb mine down to make it usable in tourny's


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## granfire (Feb 22, 2010)

Twin Fist said:


> MY martial Art isnt a sport manny
> 
> maybe yours is, mine isnt
> 
> I have to severly dumb mine down to make it usable in tourny's



Not sure if I should roll my eyes or on the floor, laughing my butt off.

How many people have you killed? I know, the day isn't over yet...


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## JWLuiza (Feb 22, 2010)

granfire said:


> Not sure if I should roll my eyes or on the floor, laughing my butt off.
> 
> How many people have you killed? I know, the day isn't over yet...


I do know martial arts and MAs that have to "Dumb" down to compete. They only train to incapacitate. They don't claim to do anything special, they just train to kick knees, gouge eyes, and otherwise effectively incapacitate their opponent.

Not my school, but definitely some Bando schools I've seen, and probably others.


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## granfire (Feb 22, 2010)

JWLuiza said:


> I do know martial arts and MAs that have to "Dumb" down to compete. They only train to incapacitate. They don't claim to do anything special, they just train to kick knees, gouge eyes, and otherwise effectively incapacitate their opponent.
> 
> Not my school, but definitely some Bando schools I've seen, and probably others.




There are stranger things under the sun, no doubt it happens. It's just that Twin Fist's utter humbleness stuck my funny bone!


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## Manny (Feb 22, 2010)

Twin Fist said:


> MY martial Art isnt a sport manny
> 
> maybe yours is, mine isnt
> 
> I have to severly dumb mine down to make it usable in tourny's


 
My TKD is not sport either, my TKD is for self defense, I am not a competitor, so I try to focus in the MA and SD of TKD. When I was a teen I took TKD classes to learn how to defend myself not to be a sport fighter.

Today the only way I am into sport TKD is as a center or corner referee, and yes even the WTF TKD (all kicking) can be very useful in the streets, however I'am not a fool and know that those flashy jumping high kicks can kill you in street.

Manny


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## Manny (Feb 22, 2010)

Am I buliding the perfect killing machine? or Am I the perfect weapon? NO. The fact is I am not preparing myself to go out the streets and beat a bunch of guys just to see if I am the ultimate warrior. I train in MA cause I love them and to know how to defend myself if need it or have to.

It's true that inside dojo/dojang all is in certain degree under control and the enviroment is friendly and the streets are ugly, no rules, but as I said before, MA is better than NO MA.

I remeber when I did practical shooting with my handguns, I shoot to paper targets (humanoid) under certain degree of stress with timers,range officers and with a set of rules and this is not the streets but I had (and have) the confidence that if I need to use a firearm to defend myself I can do it with sucess cause I am trained in firearams, in the other hand my brother for example who is not up to guns even with one in his hands will be killed easily in the streets.

Manny


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## Twin Fist (Feb 22, 2010)

granfire said:


> There are stranger things under the sun, no doubt it happens. It's just that Twin Fist's utter humbleness stuck my funny bone!



i dont care what you think gran, i dont care if you roll your eyes or laugh, or crap your pants, i dont care.

 every technique i teach has a throat shot in it, that is NOT a sport


My motto in my school is "dont stop till they drop"

that isnt a sport

my martial art isnt a sport, and has to be dumbed down to be used ina tourny.


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## Chris Parker (Feb 22, 2010)

And, just to add to your growing list, Ninjutsu (and related) have no sporting aspect whatsoever, nor do Koryu systems, Kyudo, although a form of archery, is not a sport, and so on...

Honestly, in my definition, a martial art is not a sport. And a sport is not a martial art. They actually cancel each other out. But that could just be me...


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## Gorilla (Feb 23, 2010)

The effectiveness of a Martial Artist is based on the skill and ability of the individual Martial Artist.  No system be it SD or Sport will beat big strong, quick, athletic and skilled.

This is even more true in the so called "streets".  Unless you are Bruce Lee.  Bigger, stronger, faster wins more times than not!  The superior athlete wins most of the time!  If they have the nerve to fight.


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## ATC (Feb 23, 2010)

Gorilla said:


> The effectiveness of a Martial Artist is based on the skill and ability of the individual Martial Artist. No system be it SD or Sport will beat big strong, quick, athletic and skilled.
> 
> This is even more true in the so called "streets". Unless you are Bruce Lee. Bigger, stronger, faster wins more times than not! The superior athlete wins most of the time! If they have the nerve to fight.


I tend to agree with this. This is why Bruce was so stuck on being in the best shape possible. He always stated that if you are not in shape you cannot win in combat. He also beleived in a strong core and forearms. He spent hours on his forearms alone.


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## ATC (Feb 23, 2010)

Twin Fist said:


> ...*every* technique i teach has a throat shot in it,...


Nice in theroy but not really practical. What if the thoat is not a reachable target? Every is a heavy word. Even the word "most" would be to strong a word.


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## Chris Parker (Feb 23, 2010)

I tend to disagree with this. I'll explain why.



Gorilla said:


> The effectiveness of a Martial Artist is based on the skill and ability of the individual Martial Artist.
> 
> The effectiveness of a Martial Artist is based on their training and personal aptitude to their chosen art. If that art is sport orientated, that is one thing, but the same criteria cannot be used for a non-sporting system. And honestly, ability and skill have more of an influence in sport than self defence.
> 
> ...


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## seasoned (Feb 23, 2010)

Twin Fist said:


> MY martial Art isnt a sport manny
> 
> maybe yours is, mine isn't
> 
> I have to severly dumb mine down to make it usable in tourny's


Good point, my feeling are that if a persons focus is on too many tournaments, then no matter what style you study, it *is* a sport.


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## StudentCarl (Feb 23, 2010)

This has spun into an interesting discussion of SD vs. sport. I think it's shortsighted to be too far on either side of the issue, as TKD has much to offer for both. Yes there's a difference, but I think we make too much of it.

What is required for effective SD?
_--situational awareness and an understanding of how violence develops_
_--appropriate response process(verbal skill and legal awareness to be defensible and avoid violence when possible)_
_--effective skill set to stop assailant(s) (good techniques on good targets with power)_
_--timing and execution under adrenaline/stress load_
_--ability to execute the above when tired, injured, overdressed, in mud or snow, etc._
_--+?_

What is required for effective sport?
_--ability to read and adapt to opponents, including when to attack, defend or counterattack_
_--ability to work within rules to win, maximizing points, minimizing penalites_
_--effective skill set to score points (good technique on target with power)_ 
--_timing and execution under adrenaline/stress load_
_--ability to execute the above when tired and injured_
_--+?_

1. I'll agree that TKD doesn't cover all of the aspects of SD, but it does add a great deal to the mental and physical conditioning needed to keep your cool WTSHTF.
2. (Pet peeve alert On the SD side, I think too much time is spent on physical technique without practicing the situational awareness, verbal skills, legal knowledge, and adrenaline reactions that round out SD.  You can have a great hammer fist to Adam's Apple, but if you cause death or great bodily harm without doing the rest right, you will regret it forever.
3. I think TKD is good for personal growth. I don't think that takes away from people who participate primarily for sport or SD. Some of the sport benefits support SD. As practitioners and teachers we just need to be clear about what is sport and what is SD. You really don't want your 8 year olds practicing 'knife hand to throat' on the playground anyway.
4. I won't argue with anyone who wants to focus primarily on SD or sport--I too invest a great deal of practice and study related to both. The SD has real, perhaps lifesaving value. The sport is so good for my mind and body that it likely has life-extending value. Both are good.

Regardless of your focus, full contact sparring with unfamiliar opponents further develops resilience and challenges one to keep a clear head and adapt when hurt or getting beat on. I think that has value whether or not you ever set foot in a tournament. 

Carl


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## Steve (Feb 23, 2010)

Twin Fist said:


> i dont care what you think gran, i dont care if you roll your eyes or laugh, or crap your pants, i dont care.
> 
> every technique i teach has a throat shot in it, that is NOT a sport
> 
> ...


Like in Roadhouse!


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## Steve (Feb 23, 2010)

Gorilla said:


> The effectiveness of a Martial Artist is based on the skill and ability of the individual Martial Artist. No system be it SD or Sport will beat big strong, quick, athletic and skilled.
> 
> This is even more true in the so called "streets". Unless you are Bruce Lee. Bigger, stronger, faster wins more times than not! The superior athlete wins most of the time! If they have the nerve to fight.


I actually disagree with this to a point.  There has to be some amount of skill.  Strength, size and athleticism with a little skill will trump skill alone, but there has to be SOME amount of skill.

I see wrestlers who are stronger, faster, and more athletic all the time.  I have no trouble at all with them until they pick up some fundamentals.  Within a year or so, though, they've surpassed me.  Stupid athletic kids! 

Point is, skill can overcome unskilled physical gifts.  But the scale is a sliding one where physical advantage plus a little skill can overtake just skill.  

It's early.  I hope this makes sense!


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## CDKJudoka (Feb 23, 2010)

Twin Fist has shown us all that TKD is t3h d3@dly and can only be used in the str33ts.

The art itself doesn't make it a sport, how you use it does. I do judo, jujutsu, and TKD. Can I use them as sport, most certainly. Can I use them as SD, absolutely. I will use a gi oriented osoto-gari in a tourney, but a throat grab osoto-gari in SD if need be.


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## Gorilla (Feb 23, 2010)

StudentCarl said:


> This has spun into an interesting discussion of SD vs. sport. I think it's shortsighted to be too far on either side of the issue, as TKD has much to offer for both. Yes there's a difference, but I think we make too much of it.
> 
> What is required for effective SD?
> _--situational awareness and an understanding of how violence develops_
> ...



This is a great post!!!  Everything I wanted to say!!! Thanks


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## terryl965 (Feb 23, 2010)

Twin Fist said:


> i dont care what you think gran, i dont care if you roll your eyes or laugh, or crap your pants, i dont care.
> 
> every technique i teach has a throat shot in it, that is NOT a sport
> 
> ...


 

Than more times you will find yourself in jail with this arriruce. Protection is essential but being to aggressive will cause a sever backlast with authorities. Every person knows a thoat shot is not possible all the time.

TW you teach childern I see on your website correct, if so let one of them do that in school and see what happen to the child and you. S.D. has to be made to fit each and every person out there, every technique need to be tought to fit each person style of fighting.

Also the don't stop till they drop scenerio will make you the assalant once you have contaned them and you keep beating on them.  


Sometime I forget that people tend to believe the movies that you can just do what ever you think you can ina SD stituation, we need to remember the common thread that binds all of us. That being we are teaching SD not how to kill someone like in the military.


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## Gorilla (Feb 23, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> Than more times you will find yourself in jail with this arriruce. Protection is essential but being to aggressive will cause a sever backlast with authorities. Every person knows a thoat shot is not possible all the time.
> 
> TW you teach childern I see on your website correct, if so let one of them do that in school and see what happen to the child and you. S.D. has to be made to fit each and every person out there, every technique need to be tought to fit each person style of fighting.
> 
> ...



Bravo...restraint is a necessity!


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## granfire (Feb 23, 2010)

Twin Fist said:


> i dont care what you think gran, i dont care if you roll your eyes or laugh, or crap your pants, i dont care.
> 
> every technique i teach has a throat shot in it, that is NOT a sport
> 
> ...



  All sunshine and sweetness, as usual.


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## ATC (Feb 23, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> I actually disagree with this to a point. There has to be some amount of skill. Strength, size and athleticism with a little skill will trump skill alone, but there has to be SOME amount of skill.
> 
> I see wrestlers who are stronger, faster, and more athletic all the time. I have no trouble at all with them until they pick up some fundamentals. Within a year or so, though, they've surpassed me. Stupid athletic kids!
> 
> ...


Note the key words in bold of Gorillas point.



> Bigger, stronger, faster wins *more times than not*! The superior athlete wins *most* of the time! *If* they have the nerve to fight.


Now you points are also valid but I have seen first hand many times a skilled person lose to a superior athlete. Hell, just watch some under card UFC and MMA matches and you will see this. Not always but more than enough times.


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## Manny (Feb 23, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> Than more times you will find yourself in jail with this arriruce. Protection is essential but being to aggressive will cause a sever backlast with authorities. Every person knows a thoat shot is not possible all the time.
> 
> TW you teach childern I see on your website correct, if so let one of them do that in school and see what happen to the child and you. S.D. has to be made to fit each and every person out there, every technique need to be tought to fit each person style of fighting.
> 
> ...


 
Thank you Terry, you took the words out of my mouth. When we show techs to the children in dojang we don't stress some spots like the troat, a good shot to the troath can lend to irreversible injury or death, Imagine little Jhonny been bullied for years and his sense told him to aim with force to the wind pipe!!! That's why we focus in other targets like the groin, a fast kick to the groin can incapacitate temporaly the bully. That's why we also teach some locks and plam stricks and knees too.

In the other hand I use the troat as atarget when doing sd but with force need to create disconfort and caughin, yes, I know with some more force I can break the wind pipe.

Teaching kids proper self defense techs is not easy. What I have to say about the don't stop till they drop scenario is I will use control and if this is not working then and only then use all the brutal force I have in hand, some times a good kick to the knee is all you need, some tomes a broken noose too, but there are sometimes when you need more tha that.

Manny


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## Steve (Feb 23, 2010)

ATC said:


> Note the key words in bold of Gorillas point.
> 
> Now you points are also valid but I have seen first hand many times a skilled person lose to a superior athlete. Hell, just watch some under card UFC and MMA matches and you will see this. Not always but more than enough times.


I get what you're saying, and I think we're pretty much on the same page.  

First, every person who steps into a UFC Octagon is skilled, even on the undercard.  Which dovetails nicely into what I was trying to say.   Now, to be clear, I can only really speak to grappling, as that's what I know.  

Skill beats size, strength or raw athleticism in almost every single case.  I've seen this proven over and over and over again.  

Physical gifts plus some skill, however, can overtake skill by itself very quickly.  So, a moderately skilled guy who is bigger, stronger, more aggressive or whatever can overwhelm a highly skilled guy who is smaller, weaker or whatever.  But where it's strictly skilled vs unskilled, skilled wins almost every time.


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## StudentCarl (Feb 23, 2010)

ATC said:


> ...I have seen first hand many times a skilled person lose to a superior athlete...


 
This is the old attributes vs. skills argument. No doubt there's a lot of truth to it, but there's a reason we say the street is different:

On the street there is often unequal initiative and unequal force. Deception and surprise are decisive with people for whom violence is not a sport. If I can talk to get your athlete distracted, and get a weapon into him before he knows better, I can counter that athleticism. And if I don't surprise him, my buddy Biff is behind him with a pipe. 

That simple reality is why we study SD, and why it's vital to include situational awareness, verbal skills, understanding of predator methods, and responding to unequal initiative and unequal force in our training.

Carl


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## Gorilla (Feb 23, 2010)

Skill is part of the equation.  The more strength and athletic ability you have the less skill is required (Sliding Scale).  But you must have some skill. As stated in my post.

It is very hard to overcome big, strong and athletic unless you are super skilled.


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## Twin Fist (Feb 23, 2010)

Gorilla said:


> No system be it SD or Sport will beat big strong, quick, athletic and skilled.



errant non-sense. And more importantly, how would you know? you wouldnt. You are a TKD kids dad. You are just repeating something the person you pay said once.



Gorilla said:


> The superior athlete wins most of the time!  If they have the nerve to fight.



horse hockey

i have SEEN better conditioned athletes get thier asses handed to them by old fat guys who had better skills.

SKILL and training and MENTAL toughness

you are without a grounding in reality friend


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## Steve (Feb 23, 2010)

Gorilla said:


> Skill is part of the equation. The more strength and athletic ability you have the less skill is required (Sliding Scale). But you must have some skill. As stated in my post.
> 
> It is very hard to overcome big, strong and athletic unless you are super skilled.


I think we're saying pretty much the same thing.


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## Twin Fist (Feb 23, 2010)

Terry, I love you brother, but you have clearly spent too much time on that olympic style ****. You have lost your grip on self defense

SELF DEFENSE is about just that.

I dont teach my people to be agressive in anything

BUT

in self defense? There are no rules.

When the rubber meets the road, when it is DO or DIE, my students will not die. Throat, groin, eyes, hell, jam a thumb into an eye socket, bite off a nose, rip off an ear.

I teach them that anything goes when you are in fear for your life.

better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6

I WILL NOT be a victim and niether will my students. But then we are martial artists, not sport athletes with our little pull over tops trying to score points....

"restraint is a necessity! 	"

for those willing to die, sure.

I am not willing to die, i train to defend myself and others and if i have to kill to accomplish that, i will do so with no hesitation and no regrets. And I will give the students under me the knowledge to defend themselves.

I am not a fool, or course I teach them to limit the response to the threat involved, but once they are in fear for thier lives? there are no rules.

Dark, TKD IS deadly and CAN be used on the streets, Korean Kickboxing on the other hand is a worthless waste of time, self defense wise.


Gran? you started it so dont cry when ya get it.








terryl965 said:


> Than more times you will find yourself in jail with this arriruce. Protection is essential but being to aggressive will cause a sever backlast with authorities. Every person knows a thoat shot is not possible all the time.
> 
> TW you teach childern I see on your website correct, if so let one of them do that in school and see what happen to the child and you. S.D. has to be made to fit each and every person out there, every technique need to be tought to fit each person style of fighting.
> 
> ...


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## ATC (Feb 23, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> I get what you're saying, and I think we're pretty much on the same page.
> 
> First, every person who steps into a UFC Octagon is skilled, even on the undercard. Which dovetails nicely into what I was trying to say. Now, to be clear, I can only really speak to grappling, as that's what I know.
> 
> ...


Yes I think we are on the same page.


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## Twin Fist (Feb 23, 2010)

Gorilla said:


> It is very hard to overcome big, strong and athletic unless you are at least moderately skilled.



it doesnt take all that much


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## JWLuiza (Feb 23, 2010)

So, would you put yourself up against.... any of the UFC fighters and say you'd come out on top?


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## granfire (Feb 23, 2010)

Twin Fist said:


> Gran? you started it so dont cry when ya get it.



  Started what, Sunshine?


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## terryl965 (Feb 23, 2010)

TF all I am trying to say here is better safe than sorry, in a life or death stituation anything and everything gies but how many people are truely ever gpoing to be in that type of scenio? Not many and knowing your surrounding is more important that anything else. I will always love you and I never ever give up on Traditional TKD as a weapon of choice.


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## Twin Fist (Feb 23, 2010)

thats an silly question, they have athleticism AND skills, thats not what we are talking about. But even then they are not trained for SELF DEFENSE< they are trained for SPORT

it IS different



JWLuiza said:


> So, would you put yourself up against.... any of the UFC fighters and say you'd come out on top?


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## JWLuiza (Feb 23, 2010)

Twin Fist said:


> thats an silly question, they have athleticism AND skills, thats not what we are talking about. But even then they are not trained for SELF DEFENSE< they are trained for SPORT
> 
> it IS different



Fair point.

Let's just go with their level of conditioning and strength, but no fight training.


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## CDKJudoka (Feb 23, 2010)

Twin Fist said:


> Dark, TKD IS deadly and CAN be used on the streets, Korean Kickboxing on the other hand is a worthless waste of time, self defense wise.




I know it can be used on the streets, as it can be used in sport. I train in TKD for BOTH reasons and have been doing so for over 20 years. You are just sounding like these crazy instructors who refuse to spar in their style because it is "t3h d3@dly". If you can't pressure test it, how do you know it will work?

Korean Kickboxing has a form of pressure testing it, in my opinion, making it a great way to practise SD. As a traditional TKDer, I train my SD in attacking targets that are illegal in sport, but I don't forget them when I am training for sport.


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## Twin Fist (Feb 23, 2010)

i spar almost every class.


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## Twin Fist (Feb 23, 2010)

JWLuiza said:


> Fair point.
> 
> Let's just go with their level of conditioning and strength, but no fight training.




depends, no skills just a very high level of conditioning? i wouldnt be afraid of them


know who I am afraid of?

old fat guys that have been training for 40 years, they scare the hell out of me


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## Chris Parker (Feb 23, 2010)

You know what, I'm going to throw another concept at this... 

Most here are discussing "sport/competitive" systems and "street effective" systems, but that is not all there is. Taking the initial title of this thread as it stands (that ALL martial arts are sports), I would like to point out that sport and self defence are not the only martial art ideas around. 

There are a number of martial arts that have no sporting aspect whatsoever, yet you would be hard pressed to classify them as self defence, at least in a modern setting. Obvious examples are Kenjutsu, Iaido, Kyudo, Taiji (and I'm talking about the most commonly way it is trained here, okay? It's a generalisation, freely admitted...), most Koryu systems in fact. Toda-ha Buko Ryu Naginatajutsu and Owari Kan Ryu Sojutsu are really not suited to street self defence, unless you happen to be carrying 9 foot long polearms... but they are not sport systems either.

Just a thought.


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## Twin Fist (Feb 24, 2010)

a fair point


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## Cirdan (Feb 24, 2010)

Why are all MAs sport? I can make a statement like "all guns are for hunting" but it is obviously not true.

As for what the general public thinks, who cares? They know nothing.


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## Joab (Feb 24, 2010)

Not all MA's are a sport. When I called the founder of a combatives system, the first thing he asked was, "Are you interested in sport martial arts or self defense?" I told him "self defense" and he responded "There is no sports application to his system whatsoever". Some systems can't even be done full contact at all (Like the one I was referring to, I won't give the name because the founder doesn't like it to be in forums like this, he considers this "gossip") as that would result in or maiming or death.


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## dianhsuhe (Feb 24, 2010)

Joab said:


> Not all MA's are a sport. When I called the founder of a combatives system, the first thing he asked was, "Are you interested in sport martial arts or self defense?" I told him "self defense" and he responded "There is no sports application to his system whatsoever". Some systems can't even be done full contact at all (Like the one I was referring to, I won't give the name because the founder doesn't like it to be in forums like this, he considers this "gossip") as that would result in or maiming or death.


 
Save for the "maming or death" I really like what I am reading here.

Pure self-defense and sport are mutually exclusive of one another.  I guess except for the athletic conditioning and winning attitude.


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## ATC (Feb 24, 2010)

OK OK....Manny should have said many MA's are sport.


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## dianhsuhe (Feb 24, 2010)

Chris Parker said:


> There are a number of martial arts that have no sporting aspect whatsoever, yet you would be hard pressed to classify them as self defence, at least in a modern setting. Obvious examples are Kenjutsu, Iaido, Kyudo, Taiji (and I'm talking about the most commonly way it is trained here, okay? It's a generalisation, freely admitted...), most Koryu systems in fact.
> Just a thought.


 
I agree, but then again I already covered this Chris! LOL


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## d1jinx (Feb 24, 2010)

Cirdan said:


> Why are all MAs sport? I can make a statement like "all guns are for hunting" but it is obviously not true.
> .


 
Neither is "All Guns are for Self Defense".... some are made just to destroy things!
verkill::snipe::armed::mp5::ripper::wuguns: :biggun: :2pistols: :sig::enfo::apv::rockets:
:tank::snipe2::sniper::stoplurk::uzi::ak47::shooter:

:redeme:




SHHEEEZ so many guns and killin in the smiley's....


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## Cirdan (Feb 25, 2010)

d1jinx said:


> SHHEEEZ so many guns and killin in the smiley's....


 
That`s the way you can tell it`s an american forum.


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## Manny (Feb 25, 2010)

Ok let me aplogyze, I post wrong, not all MA are sport, sorry but my english sometimes s.....k, simply my brain is clear but some times it's difficult to put my way of thinking in other languaje.

Most of the actual MA have the sport side, and some of the MA emphatizes on sport leaving the self defense beside.

Talking about TKD, there are some dojangs that emphatized on MA/SD but there are so many dojangs where the learning/training is for competition mostly. The same aplyes to another "MAS" like Karate or Judo to name just few.

The whole asumption that people and other MA's have on TKD is that is a heavy contact sport, and that's because again of the emphasys WTF/KUKIWON has put on the sport side of TKD. But please let me take again this... if TKD is a heavy or full contact sport could be work on the streets? in certain degree I must say yes.

A nasty roundhouse kick to the hogu can drop a BG in the streets wearing nothing but a jacket, a nice good back kick even with the hogu can take our breath easily so what about no wearing hogu??  A few weeks ago I got a nice but not to strong back kick above my kidney and I have to back off my partner, if this kick was sperformed right and with all the intention of hurt I would lying on the floor in great pain.

So please forgive me for my post, not all MA are sport, our MA the TKD needs to go to it's rooths and to pay attention more on SD than just competition winning combos by points.

Manny


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## d1jinx (Feb 25, 2010)

Manny said:


> Ok let me aplogyze, I post wrong, not all MA are sport, sorry but my english sometimes s.....k, simply my brain is clear but some times it's difficult to put my way of thinking in other languaje.
> 
> Most of the actual MA have the sport side, and some of the MA emphatizes on sport leaving the self defense beside.
> 
> ...


 
Nothing wrong with your post Manny.

Some people are just sensitive.  They take offense when you call it "sport" or "SD".  
By this definition.... I TOO think ALL MA ARE sport.

*a. *Physical activity that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often engaged in competitively.
*b. *A particular form of this activity.
*2. *An activity involving physical exertion and skill that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often undertaken competitively.​ Any dojang or jo you walk in has rules.  and ANY form of sparring would be "engaging in competitively" weather its for practice or a medal/trophy.

even doing your forms, you are competing against others in the class or yourself to be the best you can be.

And all MA involves physical exertion.

So yes manny, all MA are sport.


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## Joab (Feb 25, 2010)

dianhsuhe said:


> Save for the "maming or death" I really like what I am reading here.
> 
> Pure self-defense and sport are mutually exclusive of one another. I guess except for the athletic conditioning and winning attitude.


 
Well he believed only techniques that maimed or killed worked in a serious self defense emergency. Others disagree, that was what he believed, kill or be killed was essentially his philosophy. And of course you can't use such techniques in a sporting contest, which he would wholeheartedly agree with.


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## Joab (Feb 25, 2010)

Manny said:


> Ok let me aplogyze, I post wrong, not all MA are sport, sorry but my english sometimes s.....k, simply my brain is clear but some times it's difficult to put my way of thinking in other languaje.
> 
> Its alright Manny, your English is far better than my Spanish


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 25, 2010)

Sport is a way to practice within a confined rule set specific techniques against resisting opponents who are not your training partners in an effort to attain some kind of prize, be it a trophy, a medal, a title, or just bragging rights.

There is no martial art that contains zero techniques that can be used in a sportive setting.  Even ones that are entirely intended for permanent maiming or the death of your opponent have non-killing techniques, certainly enough to make a sport out of (it doesn't take very many).

Even arts that involve deadly weapons can be made into a sport practiced against resisting opponents.  Fencing, kendo and paintball are good examples of this. 

Even using deadly weapons, a nonlethal sport can be practiced.  Archery and target shooting are good examples.

Restricting your target area and technique set in a specific situation is not dumbing down your art.  It is the use of techniques appropriate to the event in a competitive setting.

Training exclusively for tournament fighting, such as only for WTF sport TKD is dumbing down an art, or at least teaching only a narrow part of that art.  

There is nothing inherently wrong with sport in the martial arts.  There is really nothing wrong with a sport only school, *so long as they are up front about it*; If I pay to learn the full Kukki TKD system and only learn straight punches, a selection of kicks for competition, and footwork, timing, and distance, then I am being ripped off.  Not because there is anything inherently wrong with what I am learning, but because it wasn't what I was what I had been told I would get when I agreed to pay for lessons.

Daniel


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## Gorilla (Feb 25, 2010)

Sport TKD is great!

Self Defense is great!

Forms are great!

TKD is Great!

Thanks for the debate otherwise the board is not compelling. 

Everyone has an opinion.  I am glad we don't agree!  The more we talk about things the better they will get ultimately.


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## dianhsuhe (Feb 25, 2010)

d1jinx said:


> Nothing wrong with your post Manny.
> 
> Some people are just sensitive. They take offense when you call it "sport" or "SD".
> By this definition.... I TOO think ALL MA ARE sport.
> ...


 
WRONG.

AGAIN- there are many martial arts styles that do not "spar" and do not "compete"

Aikido
Iaido
etc.


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## Joab (Feb 25, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> There is no martial art that contains zero techniques that can be used in a sportive setting. Even ones that are entirely intended for permanent maiming or the death of your opponent have non-killing techniques, certainly enough to make a sport out of (it doesn't take very many).
> 
> You may be right in that there are some non lethal or non maiming techniques in the combative form I'm thinking about, but those are used mostly to distract before closing with a technique that is intended to maim or kill. They would not work in a sporting venue at all nor would they be legal in any sporting venue.  The system I'm thinking about was developed for combat, not sport, it is not possible to "sporterize it" at all, and that is from the founder of the system. He put the whole thing together, so he should know what he is talking about. I'll even go out on a limb a bit and provide a website where you can ask him directly www.americancombato.com you can find out about the system in detail by checking his second website www.seattlecombatives.com Email him personally, study the syllabus yourself than get back to me as to how to "sporterize" this system.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 25, 2010)

I am going to preface that I agree with you.  

Unfortunately, people have proven that no matter how seemingly impossible or absurd an idea may be, someone can find a way to do it no matter how unsuited it is.


Joab said:


> Daniel Sullivan said:
> 
> 
> > There is no martial art that contains zero techniques that can be used in a sportive setting. Even ones that are entirely intended for permanent maiming or the death of your opponent have non-killing techniques, certainly enough to make a sport out of (it doesn't take very many).
> ...



I wasn't actually thinking of Combato; I just happened to like the permanent maiming and death part.  But since you mention it...



Joab said:


> The system I'm thinking about was developed for combat, not sport,* it is not possible to "sporterize it" at all*, and that is from the founder of the system. He put the whole thing together, so he should know what he is talking about. I'll even go out on a limb a bit and provide a website where you can ask him directly www.americancombato.com you can find out about the system in detail by checking his second website www.seattlecombatives.com Email him personally, study the syllabus yourself than get back to me as to how to "sporterize" this system.


I am sure that it does not lend itself to sport, but it is possible to add a sportive element to anything physical.  Now whether or not it is a good idea is another story.  Some arts just don't work well as sport because the finished product does not resemble the art.

Like taekwondo, which has a plethora of techniques not allowed in competition and is pared down to the the moves that the WTF wishes to showcase (primarily high kicks, which I consider fairly poor choices for SD in most, though not all cases), someone *could* take those nonlethal techniques and put together a set of rules.  

The sport may be lousy.  Or it may be fun, but it would look nothing like (nor would it really *be*) Combato.  All it takes is for some guy or gal to learn the system, open a school, and decide that competition is good for the students regardless of what the founder has said.  Especially once they figure out that there may be money involved.  

Now as I said, _could_ and _should_ are *not* the same.  

WTF sport taekwondo really does not look like taekwondo.  Twin Fist likes to say that it isn't taekwondo.  And given that what is presented in taekwondo forms does not resemble in any way what is presented in WTF sparring, he is correct on a technical level.  Approach, positioning, choices of techniques, attack and defense strategy, and most importantly, intent, are all different. 

As you are dealing with the founder who is a single individual, Sport Combato will not appear on the horizon ever: a comparatively small group of martial arts have a pretty good lock on popular martial sport, so you won't see sport Combato even after he is gone.

But the WTF proves that if you either have the organizational clout behind or have ownership of the name, you can pretty much apply it to anything no matter how absurd.

Daniel


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## Steve (Feb 25, 2010)

dianhsuhe said:


> WRONG.
> 
> AGAIN- there are many martial arts styles that do not "spar" and do not "compete"
> 
> ...


Yeah, but if you don't spar or compete or pressure test your techniques in some manner, can it still be called a martial art? 

Edit:  I just want to add to this that this is intended to be tongue in cheek.  Please don't send me hate mail.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 1, 2010)

dianhsuhe said:


> If so, I would have to disagree. Aikido, Aikijutsu and Iaido come to mind as arts that are nowhere near being a sport.





stevebjj said:


> Yeah, but if you don't spar or compete or pressure test your techniques in some manner, can it still be called a martial art?
> 
> Edit:  I just want to add to this that this is intended to be tongue in cheek.  Please don't send me hate mail.


Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't there an aikido org that does spar and compete?

Another question is do iaido practitioners do any sort of forms competition?  If so, then this would technically be sport, the same way that figure skating or gymnastics is sport.

Daniel


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## terryl965 (Mar 1, 2010)

*The Ultimate in all Combat*
_*Total Self-Defense Training!*_​ 
The above phase is what truely tickles me, unless you have a super weapon that even the military does not have there is no ultimate in any self defense. The best we have is a way that we expect will work if everything goes as planned. Why is it people always use the term Ultimate or real SD when what they really teach is practical SD and they hope that each individual can execute the moves when or if the time ever comes.​ 
The last thing I would like to add is it is very true about all MA being a sport, unless once again you are using real live blades and weapons and actually have no rule set at all. See anything that is physical and has a rule set can be consider a sport, because real SD has no rules and it never will.​ 

*THE STUDENT WHO MASTERS THE WHITE BELT COURSE HAS LEARNED MUCH MORE REALISTIC SELF-DEFENSE AND CLOSE COMBAT THAN MOST BLACK BELTS IN TRADITIONAL SYSTEMS EVER LEARN!*

the above is even more of a joke to me simply because they say so, too many people want to be the end to all and this is no exception to me. I a[[laud what they are promoting but to be that self induldge is truely not for me. A traditional system tought by well qualify people will have alot of what they talk about.

*NOTE:  BLACK BELT LEVEL RANKS, LIKE ALL OTHER, MAY BE REVOKED (AS HAS ALREADY BEEN DONE IN THE CASE OF TWO INDIVIDUALS WHOSE PERSONAL BEHAVIOR, ATTITUDE AND EGREGIOUSLY EVIL PERSONAL BETRAYAL HAS MADE IT NECESSARY TO DO).  THIS IS TO PROTECT THE MARITAL-ARTS-SEEKING PUBLIC, AND TO SAFEGUARD THE INTEGRITY OF THIS SYSTEM.*

Just to add to this one can never take away what someone has learned so by revoking rank it tells me they really never did there homework in the first place because if they was teaching and watching those individuals they would have seen certain things wat before BB. So why revoke, to make it look like you really care about society or to admit there is flaws in the system like everything else in the world.


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## granfire (Mar 1, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> *The Ultimate in all Combat*
> _*Total Self-Defense Training!*_​
> The above phase is what truely tickles me, unless you have a super weapon that even the military does not have there is no ultimate in any self defense. The best we have is a way that we expect will work if everything goes as planned. Why is it people always use the term Ultimate or real SD when what they really teach is practical SD and they hope that each individual can execute the moves when or if the time ever comes.​
> The last thing I would like to add is it is very true about all MA being a sport, unless once again you are using real live blades and weapons and actually have no rule set at all. See anything that is physical and has a rule set can be consider a sport, because real SD has no rules and it never will.​
> ...



You read the adds in BB magazine again....or the banner adds...


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## punisher73 (Mar 1, 2010)

Twin Fist said:


> Terry, I love you brother, but you have clearly spent too much time on that olympic style ****. You have lost your grip on self defense
> 
> SELF DEFENSE is about just that.
> 
> ...


 
Horse pucky.  This post shows that you have never been in a real fight outside the dojo.  Not all fights are life and death, and there are some fights that you CAN'T walk away from and are not life threatening.  If you practice self-defense, how do YOU define it?  How do you train your female students if it's a drunk co-worker who is getting a little over friendly at an office party and grabs your wrist?  What if it's an aggressive boyfriend on a date?  What if it's a male student and someone grabs his arm as he tries to walk away?

There are MANY levels of force, and they all have rules, called LAWS.  Better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6?  Ok, if you goal is to protect yourself and your family, how are you going to do that when you are serving a prison sentence because you gouged out your attacker's eyes because he pushed you and called you a name and you thought he might be getting ready to punch you?


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## punisher73 (Mar 1, 2010)

DarkPhoenix said:


> I know it can be used on the streets, as it can be used in sport. I train in TKD for BOTH reasons and have been doing so for over 20 years. You are just sounding like these crazy instructors who refuse to spar in their style because it is "t3h d3@dly". If you can't pressure test it, how do you know it will work?
> 
> Korean Kickboxing has a form of pressure testing it, in my opinion, making it a great way to practise SD. As a traditional TKDer, I train my SD in attacking targets that are illegal in sport, but I don't forget them when I am training for sport.


 
Agreed, I don't know how many people couldn't hit the attacker in the face with a regular punch, let alone having spent the time to condition the fingers to spear the throat or eyes and do damage without breaking their own fingers if they do miss.


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## dancingalone (Mar 1, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't there an aikido org that does spar and compete?



Tomiki style aikido practice randori and hold competitions too.


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## d1jinx (Mar 1, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't there an aikido org that does spar and compete?
> 
> Another question is do iaido practitioners do any sort of forms competition? If so, then this would technically be sport, the same way that figure skating or gymnastics is sport.
> 
> Daniel


 
Daniel, Your right.  

I have also seen Cutting Competitions,   you know..... where people swing swords and cut things and get "judged on technique and precision"....   along with forms, .... 
Sooo.... someone must not get out enough.  

sarcasm not directed at you Daniel.  just those who dont see past their own front door.


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## granfire (Mar 1, 2010)

Considering Chess does/did qualify as sport, and so does hunting and fishing...and these do not require any type of physical fitness, I think calling MAs of any shape or form, even if they don't translate into a competition format is excusable.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 1, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Tomiki style aikido practice randori and hold competitions too.


That was the one.  I could not remember the name.  Thanks!

Daniel


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## Steve (Mar 1, 2010)

d1jinx said:


> Daniel, Your right.
> 
> I have also seen Cutting Competitions, you know..... where people swing swords and cut things and get "judged on technique and precision".... along with forms, ....
> Sooo.... someone must not get out enough.
> ...


Jesus, guys.  What part of tongue in cheek don't you get?  It was a joke, for pete's sake!


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## granfire (Mar 1, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> Jesus, guys.  What part of tongue in cheek don't you get?  It was a joke, for pete's sake!



Full moon, don't pay it no mind!


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## d1jinx (Mar 1, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> Jesus, guys. What part of tongue in cheek don't you get? It was a joke, for pete's sake!


 

wooooaaaa... I missed something there.  I'm on your side....
wasnt talking bout you....  same team.... same team..... same team....   :erg: 

I was referring to this comment

"WRONG.

AGAIN- there are many martial arts styles that do not "spar" and do not "compete"

Aikido
Iaido
etc. "


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