# Nearest thing to....



## pineapple head (Jun 17, 2003)

Kenpo.

what would you call the nearest thing to Kenpo , a lot of people say Jeet Kun Do.
Would this be so.?????

Hey that rhymes


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## ProfessorKenpo (Jun 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by pineapple head _
> *Kenpo.
> 
> what would you call the nearest thing to Kenpo , a lot of people say Jeet Kun Do.
> ...



I would say the most closely related would be Kung Fu San Soo.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Jun 17, 2003)

Kung Fu San Soo.  Yes probably.  Not to be confused with San Shou kickboxing.

Kajukenbo is also very close.


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## Atlanta-Kenpo (Jun 17, 2003)

What about the FMA?  At least the flow is similar as well as some of the ideas and concepts.:asian:


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## Brother John (Jun 17, 2003)

> I would say the most closely related would be Kung Fu San Soo.


Just wondering why you think this Clyde. (I neither agree nor disagree.... I've had too little contact w/San Soo to be able to make such a valuation.)
Your Brother
John


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## Brother John (Jun 17, 2003)

> What about the FMA? At least the flow is similar as well as some of the ideas and concepts.



I agree. FMA I've had some experience in and appreciate their speed and ability.

Your Brother
John


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## ProfessorKenpo (Jun 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Brother John _
> *Just wondering why you think this Clyde. (I neither agree nor disagree.... I've had too little contact w/San Soo to be able to make such a valuation.)
> Your Brother
> John *



My exposure to San Soo left me wondering why they left out the concepts, theories, and only had principles but are a sound self-defense style.    They kinda knew what to do but couldn't explain it.   San Soo's movement however, is nearly identical to Kenpo, though they like to widen their circles a bit more and leave out the checks.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## Ender (Jun 17, 2003)

Lima Lama has alot of similarities to kenpo..besides the fact they are both Hawaiian.


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## Brother John (Jun 17, 2003)

Interesting Clyde...
there's a San Soo school a few miles away, I'll have to be a good neighbor and drop in for a visit and see.     Thanks.

Ender: (cool name by the way, loved the first book.... couldn't get into the others though) It was my understanding that the creator of modern Lima Lima actually studied Kenpo before L.L.'s inception.
Anyone??

Your Brother
John


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## Ender (Jun 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Brother John _
> *Interesting Clyde...
> there's a San Soo school a few miles away, I'll have to be a good neighbor and drop in for a visit and see.     Thanks.
> 
> ...



dunno...but i see alot of similar moves...*G


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## Michael Billings (Jun 17, 2003)

It's gotta be close.


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## Blindside (Jun 18, 2003)

> It's gotta be close



It is....


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## jeffkyle (Jun 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Brother John _
> *Interesting Clyde...
> there's a San Soo school a few miles away, I'll have to be a good neighbor and drop in for a visit and see.     Thanks.
> 
> ...



John,

When you go let me know.  I will go with you!


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## John Bishop (Jun 18, 2003)

Of the 6 Original Founders of Limalama, 3 were kenpo stylists.  Tino Tuilosega was a black belt under Ed Parker.  Richard Nunez and Saul Esquival were black belts under Dan Guzman a 3rd generation Kajukenbo/Kenpo black belt.


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## RCastillo (Jun 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *It's gotta be close. *



Dang it Mr. Billings, I was gonna say the same thing!


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## Brother John (Jun 18, 2003)

Thank you sir...
If you could maybe we could contact each other via Private messages.... cuz I'd like to know more about your interesting art.
Thanks
Your Brother
John


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## Randy Strausbaugh (Jun 18, 2003)

I've seen some empty-hand work from Lameco Escrima and was struck by how "Kenpo-ish" it looked.  Made me think the FMA are a good complement for Kenpo.  It seems plenty of others feel the same way.

Trying to avoid life's potholes, 
Randy Strausbaugh


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## M F (Jun 18, 2003)

A few months ago, I worked out a little bit with some friends who are Kajukenbo practitoners.(I used to train at their school years ago, but only for a few months.)  When one of us would demonstrate a technique or concept or idea, the other would show where it fit in the other system.  Everything they showed me was in American Kenpo.  Everything I showed them was in Kajukenbo.  I mean everything.  Now, I am just a 1st Black in AK, so don't get the idea that I think I know everything in AK, because I am well aware that I know next to nothing in the big picture.  But there were so many similarities in the concepts, that it is obvious that the roots are very close.  And, even though many of the concepts were the same, our styles of movement looked very different at times.  Just my $.02 .


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## Blindside (Jun 19, 2003)

I was a blue in kajukenbo before I went into kenpo (I moved).  And quite frankly I did not have any difficulty making the transition between the two arts.  

My kajukenbo instructor taught a hard version of kaju and it took me a little while to shift to kenpo's softer appearance.  The only difference to me was that in my kaju self-defense techniques every single tech had a takedown and a finish on the ground.  Not groundfighting, more like a lock or something that looks like the end of Dance of Death.   

The two arts are very close, more like brothers and sisters than cousins.

Lamont

PS  Actually, I also credit kaju with giving me good breakfalls.  I have seen alot of kenpo guys that can't take a fall worth spit.


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## John Bishop (Jun 19, 2003)

I have to agree with Blindside.  There are 4 main styles (Methods) of Kajukenbo, and a few minor viriations of the 4 styles.  In the "Original Kenpo" method the Kenpo techniques of the Chow school make up the heart of the system, with  techniques from judo, jujitsu, tang soo do, and kung fu added to enhance the Kenpo.  
So, the Kenpo technique would sometimes end with a jujitsu take down or judo throw.  Then the rapid fire Kenpo hand strikes continue as the attacked is down.
The jujitsu joint locks and take down are used quite a bit in the "Knife Counters" and "Club Counters" as they are very effective in controlling and dislocating the limb that is holding the weapon.
When people ask me how Kenpo is differant than Kajukenbo.  I normally say "Kenpo's like Kajukenbo without the takedowns and throws."  And then I point out that SGM Parker and Sijo Emperado had the same teacher.


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## Doc (Jun 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> *I would say the most closely related would be Kung Fu San Soo.
> 
> Have a great Kenpo day
> ...


In my opinion, Mr.O'Briant is correct. Commercial Kenpo's "sister" art, commercial San Soo, share a very strong structural and historical relationship. And just like Kenpo, San Soo has more than one interpretation. One very public, and others not.


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## Brother John (Jun 25, 2003)

> Commercial Kenpo's "sister" art, commercial San Soo, share a very strong structural and historical relationship.



Just wondering why this is, what the structural and historical relationship(s) may be.

Thanks

Your Brother
John


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## Doc (Jun 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Brother John _
> *Just wondering why this is, what the structural and historical relationship(s) may be.
> 
> Thanks
> ...



The historical relationship between commercial kenpo and San Soo is rather well documented and has a primary influence traceable to Ed Parker. Ed Parker met James W. Woo in Northern California, convinced him to move south, and shared a relationship, with Woo teaching Tai Chi, etc in Parkers school. He also was providing significant input for Parkers Secrets of Chinese Karate. The two shared much information with each other, but it is important to recognize James W. Woo was well versed in Yang Tai Chi, Hung Gar, Choi Lai Fut, Southern Mantis, Northern Shaolin, etc. 

Parker also had a relationship with James H. Woo (originally Chin Siu Dek) who followed Parkers lead and similar structure for a commercial self-defense art. Jimmy H. adjusted his family art (Tsoi Li Ho Fut Hung) to San Soo and focused on personal self-defense like commercial Kenpo for profit and expansion. In December of 1962 Jimmy officially held the grand opening for his martial arts studio in the Midway Shopping Center in El Monte, CA. In the early years he called it Karate-Kung Fu because like "kenpo," no one knew what kung fu was. San Soo is technique based and utilizes a similar Japanese ranking and belt system. An unusual anomaly, just like Kenpo is as well, for a Chinese Art, but tends to be more in-depth than conceptual commercial kenpo. 

Like Parker, and Jame H., James W. Woo was forced to call his art when he opened his school in 1961 Karate/Kung-Fu the same way Parker tacked on Karate to Kenpo for commercial consumption. 

Rick Flores and Rich Montgomery, 1st generation black belts under Parker became Jimmy W. Woo students as Parker moved toward the commercial and away from Chinese Concepts. 

Jimmy H. Woo continued as well with San Soo ultimately opening the Chinese Martial Arts Association on Hollywood Blvd in an effort to capitalize on the commercial viability of Chinese Self-Defense for the public in Ho0llywood like Parker. Although they all were competitors in a sense, James W. Woo ultimately stated, .. a lot of so-called masters have tried to streamline their teaching for commercial reasons, and in so doing have deleted everything that made them what they are. The problem with all the arts has always been, when you study a focused or abbreviated art, people within that art begin to think that really is the art instead of what it is, a commercial striped down shell of an art. 

Ed Parker passed in Dec of 1990 and Jimmy H. Woo 2 months later almost to the day in February 1991. All three had schools within 10 miles of each other and I had occasions to visit all three while also studying with Ark Wong in L.A. Chinatown who Ed Parker had studied with previously as well. Dan Inosanto studied there as well. So you see there is a real "Chinese Connection" among Kenpo and it's black belts and teachers.

James W. (Wing) Woo and James (Jimmy) H.  (only) Woo were often confused with each other., but they were not related.


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## Big Pat (Jun 28, 2003)

Thank you Dr. Chapel, the post was very informative. Mr. Parker's history with James H. and James W. has always been very interesting. From the articles I have read,  San Soo has had it's share of problems after Mr. Woo died. 

EKP RIP 

Big Pat:asian:


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## Doc (Jun 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Big Pat _
> *Thank you Dr. Chapel, the post was very informative. Mr. Parker's history with James H. and James W. has always been very interesting. From the articles I have read,  San Soo has had it's share of problems after Mr. Woo died.
> 
> EKP RIP
> ...


Well yes, and it just like Kenpo in that regard. There have always been problems, defections, descrepancies, with all the arts once they went "public." Money, noteriety, ego, etc . have always claimed their share of victims and always will..

As far as Kenpo, I think there was probably more crap when Parker was alive and the defections were significant for a variety of variety of reasons but they all come back when they smell a "buck."


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## Brother John (Jun 28, 2003)

I appreciate the insight into the similar histories.
What about their similarities (if there are any) in action or curriculum? If their histories are so close, what about the training and applications?
Thanks again...
Your Brother
John


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## Doc (Jun 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Brother John _
> *I appreciate the insight into the similar histories.
> What about their similarities (if there are any) in action or curriculum? If their histories are so close, what about the training and applications?
> Thanks again...
> ...


The commercial San Soo as an art is more complicated and explores more intricate and complex technique methodologies from the Chinese than commercial Kenpo. Intricate locks, controls, takedowns, escapes, evasions, nerves, etc are fairly common in its techniques. Commercial kenpo is 90% conceptual with Parker choosing to explore ideas with instructors and leaving it up to them ultimately to interpret those conceptual lessons to a workable model. In Parker's defense there is no other way when you only have one real expert of the art, if you choose to expand and go "public." But as always in these type situations, the instructor will always be the barometer by which you judge the curriculum. Interestingle enough, depending on instructor,  San Soo training can take on the appearance of "live action" interactive Tai Chi applications paracticed at moderate speed with a lack of explosiveness. but no less effective in its ideas.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 30, 2021)

Doc said:


> The historical relationship between commercial kenpo and San Soo is rather well documented and has a primary influence traceable to Ed Parker. Ed Parker met James W. Woo in Northern California, convinced him to move south, and shared a relationship, with Woo teaching Tai Chi, etc in Parkers school. He also was providing significant input for Parkers Secrets of Chinese Karate. The two shared much information with each other, but it is important to recognize James W. Woo was well versed in Yang Tai Chi, Hung Gar, Choi Lai Fut, Southern Mantis, Northern Shaolin, etc.
> 
> Parker also had a relationship with James H. Woo (originally Chin Siu Dek) who followed Parkers lead and similar structure for a commercial self-defense art. Jimmy H. adjusted his family art (Tsoi Li Ho Fut Hung) to San Soo and focused on personal self-defense like commercial Kenpo for profit and expansion. In December of 1962 Jimmy officially held the grand opening for his martial arts studio in the Midway Shopping Center in El Monte, CA. In the early years he called it Karate-Kung Fu because like "kenpo," no one knew what kung fu was. San Soo is technique based and utilizes a similar Japanese ranking and belt system. An unusual anomaly, just like Kenpo is as well, for a Chinese Art, but tends to be more in-depth than conceptual commercial kenpo.
> 
> ...


Most of what you write is correct. The Chinese martial arts association on Hollywood blvd was James Wing Woo’s. I have photos of it with Sifu James Wing Woo and rich Montgomery inside and outside. No disrespect intended.


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