# what does everybody think of flashy kicks?



## tkdguy1982 (Feb 20, 2004)

I was wanting to know what everyone thinks of all the flashy kicks & things you see websites like www.bilang.com.  Do you all think they are useless or do you like them?


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## Ceicei (Feb 20, 2004)

tkdguy1982 said:
			
		

> I was wanting to know what everyone thinks of all the flashy kicks & things you see websites like www.bilang.com. Do you all think they are useless or do you like them?


Flashy kicks and other moves have their places.  They're fun to watch and are often part of demo teams.  

Maybe some of those martial artists may end up being on TV or in the movies?

- Ceicei


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## tkdguy1982 (Feb 20, 2004)

Oh yeah most definently, I enjoy watching, wouldn't even mind being able to do them.  They wouldn't work in a real fight, ever.  Nobody is going to let you spin around 3 times & kick them.  But they are fun to watch.


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## markulous (Feb 22, 2004)

tkdguy1982 said:
			
		

> Oh yeah most definently, I enjoy watching, wouldn't even mind being able to do them.  They wouldn't work in a real fight, ever.  Nobody is going to let you spin around 3 times & kick them.  But they are fun to watch.



Exactly.


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## RCastillo (Feb 22, 2004)

Ceicei said:
			
		

> Flashy kicks and other moves have their places.  They're fun to watch and are often part of demo teams.
> 
> Maybe some of those martial artists may end up being on TV or in the movies?
> 
> - Ceicei



Same here. :asian:


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## tkdguy1982 (Feb 22, 2004)

Maybe one day I will grow enough cahunas to try flashy kicks.... lol.... maybe!!!


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## Gary Crawford (Feb 22, 2004)

Looks like alot of fun!I've always been amazed by capiera.Will it work in a real fight?I say no,but brazilian military trains in it.I see value in EVERTHING!


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## tkdguy1982 (Feb 22, 2004)

Oh no, not in a real fight I don't think it would work.... just something thats amazing to watch & would be really cool to do.  In a real fight you would be waisting your time trying that, like I said before no one will let you spin around 3 times & kick them.  Takes too much time & gives them plenty of time to be ready for it & capitalize with a move of their own.


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## MJS (Feb 23, 2004)

tkdguy1982 said:
			
		

> I was wanting to know what everyone thinks of all the flashy kicks & things you see websites like www.bilang.com.  Do you all think they are useless or do you like them?



IMO, they have their place.  That place should be for show or a tourny. rather than on the street, but hey, whatever works for you right?  I've always been an advocate of doing things that a simple and to the point.  Will a jump spinning back kick work for someone on the street? Sure.  Is it the best choice? No.

Mike


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## tkdguy1982 (Feb 23, 2004)

IMO, I don't think I would ever use them in a fight.  I would in a tourney or for a sampler video, but never anymore than that.


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## ace (Apr 25, 2004)

I Like Them I practise Mid Level Spin Kicks.
& Have enen done a Drop Kick or 2.

They are Fun But i don't think I will Ever Use Them in the Cadge
Unless I make a Swith from MMA to Pro Wrestling.Easyer said Then Done.


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## ShaolinWolf (Apr 25, 2004)

I think one of the times it would work with spin kicks is the angle of attack on the street. I myself don't see it a good thing to do flashy on the street, but spins can be helpful. Say the person attacks while you dodging a certain way(some people dodge with a quick spin to face their opponent's back). While spinning to avoid a near collision, you could use a kick. But that's rare, just a thought. I mean, spins could be great for the person who have practiced them, but why not just get more hits in than waste time on spinning...


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## Nightingale (Apr 27, 2004)

I'm not sure if we're thinking of the same kind of spin, but turning your back on your opponent, even for a split second, doesn't seem real smart to me in a street fight.


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## ShaolinWolf (Apr 28, 2004)

Right. I don't want to risk the chance turning my back for any amount of time. I would rather take out the leg and just batter them than try something flashy like a spin kick...


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## loki09789 (Apr 28, 2004)

Those kicks were choreographed, practiced and intented for show - so for those guys they will always be for show.  

My general theory is this.  If, to you, it is a 'trick' an 'intricate' thing or too 'flashy' then don't do it because you have no faith in it's effectiveness.

If on the other hand, you drill it until you can make it work in reality/scenario training reality the majority of the time.... I guess it isn't just flashy or showy


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## Robbo (Apr 28, 2004)

Think of it this way.

If somebody can throw a jump spinning 720 deg hook kick.....
then how good is their standing lead leg hook kick to the groin?
Probably very good. Your basics have to be perfect to perform these 'tricks'
So think of it as just taking the basics to the next level.
It is still up to the individual on where, when, & how to employ these 'tricks'.
If he/she is taught that they are effective 'fighting' techniques then there is definitly something missing in the instruction.

It's just another way to practise basics albeit not for everybody.

Rob


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## Baytor (May 30, 2004)

Robbo said:
			
		

> Think of it this way.
> 
> If somebody can throw a jump spinning 720 deg hook kick.....
> then how good is their standing lead leg hook kick to the groin?
> ...


I remember hearing somewhere that the jumping kicks were used first for striking someone on a horse.  While I think that flashy kicks are cool to see in demos, I don't see a place for them anymore in the real world.  I think that if you spend so much time training to do them, you will probably look for an opening to use them in a fight. That's just my guess, I never trained to do the flashy kicks.  My philosophy is to train as I would fight, which is to keep it simple and effective. 

They are fun to watch, though.


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## Ceicei (May 30, 2004)

It takes a lot of flexibility to do those kinds of moves.  When it gets down to the nitty-gritty of a fight, the martial artists probably won't use these flashy moves, but due to their well developed muscular strength, their basic moves will be very strong.  In other words, I'm restating the same thought that Robbo mentioned.

- Ceicei


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## TigerWoman (May 30, 2004)

My TKD master instructor is 5th dan.  Last year at a demo, he did a quadruple front kick to four balloons held at chest level. Yes he has a lot of power.  Most people would not do well with him in a street fight.  He knocked someone out with a flying side kick to the head in a street fight when he was a colored belt and he hasn't slowed down in 23 years.  He teaches street fighting to us as well.  No spins.  No escape or control techniques, we are just taught major damage ankle, knee, elbow, groin, head. 

But with that said, I'm not in martial arts for self defense, that's just a nice side benefit.  While I have been attacked twice in my lifetime, I didn't seek a self defense class then.  I got into TKD because the exercise is fun, it was good for my family.  I love the flashy kicks.  When you CAN achieve them, its a euphoria that can't be matched.  And hey, a jump back kick, well learned is an effective tool in fighting.  Especially a double jumpback, one side then the other side, done fast - won't know what hit em. And a ground sweep, is effective for an attacker with a knife. Flashy too!  I've done it at tournaments.  To understand it more, you have to try it.  I would like to try Kenpo too but there's nothing around here. :uhyeah:


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## MichiganTKD (Jun 1, 2004)

Any technique practiced diligently can be effective. It is all in understanding how to practice and apply it.


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## Baytor (Jun 1, 2004)

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> Any technique practiced diligently can be effective. It is all in understanding how to practice and apply it.



True, but knowing when to use them is just as important.  Not every technique,no matter how diligently practiced, is effective or the best technique to use for every circumstance.

For example:  The military and police employ the use of snipers.  They diligently practice their craft.  They are masters of what they do.  Their rifles are precision weapons.  When used correctly, a sniper and his rifle can change the course of an engagement.  However, to send a sniper into close quarters battle with the same rifle is not effective.  For CQB, you want something compact with a high rate of fire.

The bottom line is that any technique has a time or place to be used.  IMO, the only place for high flashy kicks is in tournaments and demonstrations.


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## TigerWoman (Jun 1, 2004)

IamBaytor said:
			
		

> True, but knowing when to use them is just as important.  Not every technique,no matter how diligently practiced, is effective or the best technique to use for every circumstance.
> 
> The bottom line is that any technique has a time or place to be used.  IMO, the only place for high flashy kicks is in tournaments and demonstrations.



I disagree, and I agree with Michigan TKD.   If you would have read my post prior, I gave a good example of when a diligently practiced kickflashy whatever you want to call a high kickwas used in a street fight to END the fight.  A double flying side to the head.  Also Jump Spin Heel.  These kicks when they are FAST can be devastating and pretty indefensible. They are knockouts. We can't even use JSH in sparring practice, because the likelihood of knockout WITH headgear on. There is a time and place for every strike, that goes without saying. Practicing the techniques offered in TKD is the best way of knowing if they are effective and when to use them.


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## TKD USA (Jun 9, 2004)

When I first came into Martial Arts I loved all of those flashy kicks but now since I am more into my art I think they just take up alot of time and are useless. Very fun to learn though.


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## Han-Mi (Jun 10, 2004)

There fun to watch and to do. The one thing that I would have to add to this discussion is that spinning and jumping can be used for misdirection and confusion.Obviously, in the basic street fight, you don't need to use these techniques, but If you come up against another experienced fighter, they can be useful and effective. I actually had a fight last a while once, and realised that the guy was experienced a MA, So i through a couple of spins in to mess up his timing, and he was down with my second spin technique, which was a spin sidekick(easily the most effective and useful "flashy" kick).


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## TKD USA (Jun 10, 2004)

Taekwondo Jump,Spin, or Jumpspin kick are not flashy and are some times very effective


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## MJS (Jun 10, 2004)

I think that most of the people, myself included, who talk about or question the jump kicks, do so because we are taking other things into consideration.  For example, a woman wearing high heel shoes.  Now, I know someone is gonna say, "Well, she can just take them off.'' Yeah, ok.  So when the rapist jumps out from behind the car and grabs onto the woman, shes gonna have time to take her shoes off??  What about the clothing that you're wearing?  Now a gi is loose fitting, were a suit may not be.  In addition, any time you spin, you run the risk of telegraphing your movements.  

I'm speaking for myself here, but I wouldnt do a head high kick or a jump kick, considering that there are many other and often better targets lower than the head.  The knee, shin, top of the foot, the leg and groin are IMO, closer targets than the head.

Mike


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## MJS (Jun 10, 2004)

TigerWoman said:
			
		

> And a ground sweep, is effective for an attacker with a knife. Flashy too!  I've done it at tournaments.  To understand it more, you have to try it.  I would like to try Kenpo too but there's nothing around here. :uhyeah:



Any time you attempt a kick against an attacker with a weapon, you're offering him a target.  

Mike


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## Han-Mi (Jun 10, 2004)

don't kick at a weapon, DUH! That can hurt. In such a case you move in and disarm. The point is that the techniques are not useless, just that the opportunity for them to be used effectively and with reason is few and far between.


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## Brother John (Jun 19, 2004)

tkdguy1982 said:
			
		

> Oh yeah most definently, I enjoy watching, wouldn't even mind being able to do them.  They wouldn't work in a real fight, ever.  Nobody is going to let you spin around 3 times & kick them.  But they are fun to watch.



Prettymuch says it all.


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## TigerWoman (Jun 19, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> Any time you attempt a kick against an attacker with a weapon, you're offering him a target.
> 
> Mike



Just saw this, sorry for the delay in response. That statement was too general. Are you aware how the TKD sweep works? The ground sweep is precisely for that reason-- to get your body OUT of the way.  I had to do that sweep break on a board standing on end that way. I've done it at tournaments also.  I suppose a leg would make a nice target to break.  A fast crescent will do the same-take the knife out by kicking the wrist.  Both kicks take practice and are effective when done by someone who is adept at it. TW


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## MJS (Jun 20, 2004)

TigerWoman said:
			
		

> Just saw this, sorry for the delay in response. That statement was too general. Are you aware how the TKD sweep works? The ground sweep is precisely for that reason-- to get your body OUT of the way.  I had to do that sweep break on a board standing on end that way. I've done it at tournaments also.  I suppose a leg would make a nice target to break.  A fast crescent will do the same-take the knife out by kicking the wrist.  Both kicks take practice and are effective when done by someone who is adept at it. TW



Actually, no I'm not aware as how that kick works, and yes a leg is a good target to hit.  However, I still wouldnt recommend kicking a weapon out of someones hand.  Why extend another limb to the attacker and risk having it get cut or hit???  Against someone who knows how to fight with a knife, that can be a very big mistake.  Can it be done? Possibly, but you said it best..."When its done by someone who is adept at it."  At what point and time is someone 'going to be adept?'

Mike


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## TigerWoman (Jun 21, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> "  At what point and time is someone 'going to be adept?'
> Mike



I would prefer the ground position/sweep better against the knife.  But when faced with a knife attacker, I'm better with legs from training than to muscle it away with hands, as a woman.  We do alot of crescent kicking in TKD so it can be pretty fast.  Misdirection can help that too  like slinging a purse.  Lunging knife attacks are part of the self defense scenarios that we practice. TW


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## MJS (Jun 21, 2004)

TigerWoman said:
			
		

> I would prefer the ground position/sweep better against the knife.  But when faced with a knife attacker, I'm better with legs from training than to muscle it away with hands, as a woman.  We do alot of crescent kicking in TKD so it can be pretty fast.  Misdirection can help that too  like slinging a purse.  Lunging knife attacks are part of the self defense scenarios that we practice. TW



Yes, I agree with the muscle aspect.  I guess where I was going with that was to get control, work a counter strike and then attempt a disarm.  As for being adept..I was referring to at what point in the TKD students training, will they be adept enough to execute that kick effectively??  Could you give me a brief example of a typical knife defense?  This isnt my intention to turn this into a TKD bashing session, just trying to compare a TKD defense to the defenses that I do.  Seeing as how I dont study TKD, I figure its best to inquire with someone who does!  

Mike


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## TigerWoman (Jun 21, 2004)

To MJS:
Of course, it all depends on the individual and how hard he/she trains. I was given that attacka surpriseat my recommended bb test and I did a crescent response.  It could have been faster at that point in my test, but I did it. (couldn't break his wrist-not allowed  ) Now, I'm nearly 2nd dan and its been four years since. Something about after getting black belt, training as one, increased my ability in most areas. My crescent is pretty strong and I would have no problem executing it. Its the front leg kicking with a snap-outside to in-to the wrist of the hand holding the knife. The hitting point on the foot is the edge. Guys who are younger, have more talent, advance more quickly in strength, speed, can do it earlier. Its all about what you train most in. In the case of my master, 5th dan, I can't even see his front leg kick coming in before its too late. That's the effect you need to have. But I still prefer the ground sweep, that's a required break for 1st dan in our school. That's probably too hard to detail here and I don't think its wise to give out secrets of the arts on the web anyway.  :asian:


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## MJS (Jun 21, 2004)

TigerWoman said:
			
		

> To MJS:
> Of course, it all depends on the individual and how hard he/she trains. I was given that attacka surpriseat my recommended bb test and I did a crescent response.  It could have been faster at that point in my test, but I did it. (couldn't break his wrist-not allowed  ) Now, I'm nearly 2nd dan and its been four years since. Something about after getting black belt, training as one, increased my ability in most areas. My crescent is pretty strong and I would have no problem executing it. Its the front leg kicking with a snap-outside to in-to the wrist of the hand holding the knife. The hitting point on the foot is the edge. Guys who are younger, have more talent, advance more quickly in strength, speed, can do it earlier. Its all about what you train most in. In the case of my master, 5th dan, I can't even see his front leg kick coming in before its too late. That's the effect you need to have. But I still prefer the ground sweep, that's a required break for 1st dan in our school. That's probably too hard to detail here and I don't think its wise to give out secrets of the arts on the web anyway.  :asian:



Thanks for the reply! :asian:   You're absolutely correct....its all how much the person trains.  Just like anything, the more you do it, the better you'll be.  As for kicking....everybody has their own techs. and if you can pull it off, great.  Its just something that I'd rather not do.  Dont get me wrong, I can kick.  In fact, I do prefer that over punching, but I'd rather not attempt that against someone holding a weapon.  

Thanks for the chat!  

Mike


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## SenseiGR (Jun 21, 2004)

Han-Mi said:
			
		

> There fun to watch and to do. The one thing that I would have to add to this discussion is that spinning and jumping can be used for misdirection and confusion.Obviously, in the basic street fight, you don't need to use these techniques, but If you come up against another experienced fighter, they can be useful and effective. I actually had a fight last a while once, and realised that the guy was experienced a MA, So i through a couple of spins in to mess up his timing, and he was down with my second spin technique, which was a spin sidekick(easily the most effective and useful "flashy" kick).


Seems to me that an experienced MA would be the LAST guy you'd want to throw this flash-trash at.  I'm in my mid-50s, so I'm sure I'm slower than you, Han-Mi, but if someone threw a spinning kick at my head in a real fight, they'd find themself hurt BAD.


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## MJS (Jun 21, 2004)

SenseiGR said:
			
		

> Seems to me that an experienced MA would be the LAST guy you'd want to throw this flash-trash at.  I'm in my mid-50s, so I'm sure I'm slower than you, Han-Mi, but if someone threw a spinning kick at my head in a real fight, they'd find themself hurt BAD.



I've said before that everything has its time and place.  IMO, I really dont think I'd be wise to throw a spinning kick during a fight until the person is pretty much on the road to being KO'd.  Then again, I can think of many other ways to finish other than throwing a spinning or jumping kick.  

Mike


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## TKD USA (Jun 22, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> I've said before that everything has its time and place. IMO, I really dont think I'd be wise to throw a spinning kick during a fight until the person is pretty much on the road to being KO'd. Then again, I can think of many other ways to finish other than throwing a spinning or jumping kick.
> 
> Mike


Well in a fight a spin kick won't be as fast as a regular kick but lets say you are in a confrontation and someone throws a right hook punch at me I would do a spin side kick better yet a left back kick to the gut to take him out. I have used this many times with positive endings.


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## MJS (Jun 22, 2004)

TKD USA said:
			
		

> Well in a fight a spin kick won't be as fast as a regular kick but lets say you are in a confrontation and someone throws a right hook punch at me I would do a spin side kick better yet a left back kick to the gut to take him out. I have used this many times with positive endings.



Again, everything has its time and place.  Some kicks are best suited for different situations.  You have obviously used this and its worked well for you.  

Mike


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## Littledragon (Jun 25, 2004)

tkdguy1982 said:
			
		

> I was wanting to know what everyone thinks of all the flashy kicks & things you see websites like www.bilang.com. Do you all think they are useless or do you like them?


Nothing is useless if it can be applyed the right way. To tell you the truth I would not use those kind of kicks in a street fight but some of the kicks can be very deadly and effective. A jump spinning back kick to the solarplexes can knock the wind out of some one. BUt for the record flashy kicks are for show nothing more but if you are skilled enough to apply them for self defense by all means go for it if you feel you got the hang of it.

Tarek


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## Littledragon (Jun 25, 2004)

TKD USA said:
			
		

> Well in a fight a spin kick won't be as fast as a regular kick but lets say you are in a confrontation and someone throws a right hook punch at me I would do a spin side kick better yet a left back kick to the gut to take him out. I have used this many times with positive endings.


I'd personally attack the legs first it is much safer because you never know who you are fighting against especially if he grabs your leg, but it all depends how good you are.


Tarek


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## lonecoyote (Jul 8, 2004)

Not too long ago I read an article on the internet from an australian newspaper about a guy who got in a fight outside a hotel (I think thats where the bar is in australian country towns) and threw a jump spin kick and killed the other guy. Probably his opponent was intoxicated, or hit his head  on a curb or something, but it did happen. Been looking for the story since I saw this thread. Any australians know about this?


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## Baoquan (Jul 11, 2004)

lonecoyote said:
			
		

> Not too long ago I read an article on the internet from an australian newspaper about a guy who got in a fight outside a hotel (I think thats where the bar is in australian country towns) and threw a jump spin kick and killed the other guy. Probably his opponent was intoxicated, or hit his head  on a curb or something, but it did happen. Been looking for the story since I saw this thread. Any australians know about this?



I think this is what you're looking for. Link.

Here is a follow up... 

and the result.

The guy in question apparantly had several previous convicions for kicking people in the head. Just goes to show that there are @rseholes in the MA family, too.


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## MJS (Jul 12, 2004)

Baoquan said:
			
		

> I think this is what you're looking for. Link.
> 
> Here is a follow up...
> 
> ...



Interesting story.  As its been discussed before, making sure that you're up to date on the self defense laws and making sure that you're not using excessive force are 2 very important things.  Again, everything has its place, but did this situation warrant a kick to the head??  

Knowing how to do the techs. is one thing, but knowing the results or effects of what you do is also important.

Mike


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## lonecoyote (Jul 12, 2004)

Thanks Baoquan. I appreciate the help. Sad situation.


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## Baoquan (Jul 12, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> Interesting story.  As its been discussed before, making sure that you're up to date on the self defense laws and making sure that you're not using excessive force are 2 very important things.  Again, everything has its place, but did this situation warrant a kick to the head??
> 
> Knowing how to do the techs. is one thing, but knowing the results or effects of what you do is also important.
> 
> Mike



There are a number of stories floating around about the incident, but the prevailing theme is that the offender was _not_ defending himself - he was looking for someone to knuckle. His previous two convictions for similar offences seem to back that story up. He's spending the next couple years away for it.

It seems he trained his kicks pretty well, but i wonder if he trained defence against a rear mount? :anic:


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