# Are the FMAs "devolving" from the lack of real combat testing?



## geezer

On another thread, the point was made that a lot of FMAs being taught today --especially here in the States-- lack the realism that characterized the stuff taught by the older generations of masters. Think of some of the legendary names in the FMAs: Dizon, Cabales, Villabrille, Ilustrisimo, Giron, Bacon, the Tortal family, the Latosa family, to name but a few... these guys used their arts for _fighting_. Some used them for _killing_... especially the Filipino freedom fighters resisting the Japanese during WWII. So the FMA systems that were exposed to the US public in the '70s and '80's were still lead by individuals who had seen those arts _used and tested._

Now the old generation of masters has almost entirely passed. FMAs are being widely taught by people who have never used them in anything like an actual life-or-death struggle. We see more and more fancy, flowery techniques being taught, and we no-longer _test_ what we learn. Meanwhile, the public turns increasingly to MMA, which, though a _sport_ and not the same as a life-or-death struggle, at least is constantly being pressure-tested in the ring. So where does that leave the FMAs in the modern world. Are we going to end up as another, non-functional, ritualized art form and philosophical discipline like some Japanese Budo? Worse, are we going to become another flashy, phony martial dance-form taught to kids at the corner McDojo? Or is there a way to keep the original fighting spirit and realism of the FMAs alive in the modern, civilized world?


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## LoneRider

Eskrima's stick fighting applications I would think are easily transferrable to the use of a standard police baton. I recall my armed sentry training in the military and the use of such an implement was rather Escrima-esque/Kali-esque. 

I would also think the military could conceivably use the some of the weapons techniques of the FMAs if they could fit them into the MACP curriculum.


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## MJS

geezer said:


> On another thread, the point was made that a lot of FMAs being taught today --especially here in the States-- lack the realism that characterized the stuff taught by the older generations of masters. Think of some of the legendary names in the FMAs: Dizon, Cabales, Villabrille, Ilustrisimo, Giron, Bacon, the Tortal family, the Latosa family, to name but a few... these guys used their arts for _fighting_. Some used them for _killing_... especially the Filipino freedom fighters resisting the Japanese during WWII. So the FMA systems that were exposed to the US public in the '70s and '80's were still lead by individuals who had seen those arts _used and tested._
> 
> Now the old generation of masters has almost entirely passed. FMAs are being widely taught by people who have never used them in anything like an actual life-or-death struggle. We see more and more fancy, flowery techniques being taught, and we no-longer _test_ what we learn. Meanwhile, the public turns increasingly to MMA, which, though a _sport_ and not the same as a life-or-death struggle, at least is constantly being pressure-tested in the ring. So where does that leave the FMAs in the modern world. Are we going to end up as another, non-functional, ritualized art form and philosophical discipline like some Japanese Budo? Worse, are we going to become another flashy, phony martial dance-form taught to kids at the corner McDojo? Or is there a way to keep the original fighting spirit and realism of the FMAs alive in the modern, civilized world?


 
I"m sure there are some people, depending on their jobs, that have used, successfully, their FMA training.  As far as the testing goes...well, that IMO is something we should be doing.  I remember a thread I started a while ago, on sparring in Arnis, and whether or not people do it.  Some people consider the drills that we do as sparring, however I disagree.  I feel that sparring is more along the lines of what we'd see with the Dog Bros. and yes, that certainly isn't for everyone.  However, for a slightly toned down version of that, padded sticks can be used.  I've received some pretty good welts from those sticks.  

A few of the people in my group likes to take certain things and isolate them in a more realistic fashion.  For example...lets say the focus was the 12 angles of attack. (**Note: I come from the Remy Presas style of Arnis, so our terminology may vary**) We'll start with the #1 angle and work entries and control/disarms.  We'll start off slow and gradually work our way up to a faster speed.  IMO, this is a good way to test things, due to the fact that many times during training, we're dealing with compliant partners for the sake of learning the basic fundamentals of whatever is being taught.

However, as I said, there comes a time, when you gotta pick up the pace.  Its amazing to see what works, what doesn't and what needs to be changed, when that stick is really coming at you.  The same thing can be done with the blade defenses, as well as empty hand attacks.  

Personally, I"m not a huge fan of the fancy, flowery stuff.  I'd rather work the more practical stuff.  Will the various FMAs dry up and die?  God I hope not.  While there may not be thousands of students in the classroom, there are small, dedicated groups of people who train and continue to spread the art.  And thats fine with me.  I'd rather have a small dedicated group, than a room filled with people, who dont care about the art.


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## Andrew Green

Nothing stopping people from getting a little protective equipment and pressure testing stuff for themself, well maybe a disliking of bruises, but this sport is supposed to hurt a little


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## Arnis7Tres5

> On another thread, the point was made that a lot of FMAs being taught today --especially here in the States-- lack the realism that characterized the stuff taught by the older generations of masters.



Great stuff, guys.  Just wanted to clarify my stance, I actually think more of the testing like the following groups PTK, Black Eagle Society, Dog Brothers are done outside the Philippines.  So, the Filipinos don't have monopoly on FMA's testing any longer.

I didn't mean to say that the Manongs were unique, just that they had less to lose and more to gain by kinetically testing their skills constantly.  But people are still testing (Filipinos and non-Filipinos), the problem is those who are spreading the FMA are not the folks who are testing and tweaking their art.


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## geezer

MJS said:


> I feel that sparring is more along the lines of what we'd see with the Dog Bros. and yes, *that certainly isn't for everyone.*  However, for a slightly toned down version of that, padded sticks can be used.  I've received some pretty good welts from those sticks.



I agree about the usefulness of sparring ala Dog Bros. and Black Eagle, ... but as I'm turning 55 next month, I'll stay with padded sticks for now.

Also, I appreciate the input from _Arnis735_, since his comments inspired this thread. On the other hand, _Arnis_, I think it's fair to say that some of the old manongs _were_ pretty unique. People like that are rare in any culture!


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## Stick Dummy

Great thread and posts!!

My feelings are people in general tend to gravitate away from FMA-IMA based on the reality of the arts and PAIN! LOL

That is what drew me in and sunk the hook deep. The applications are vastly more practical for counter offensive situations and WORK without dogma.

Yes McDojo types will exploit the "Flowery" moves but we don't care as hard core enthusiasts.

Keep teaching what we have been taught and share it with those worthy of continuing the traditions.

They will come and learn.....


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## Archangel M

Im not sure if the whole "stick your arm out and stand still while I whirl a few dozen strikes at you" approach to training is doing anybody any favors.

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I understand it's place in instruction, but it does seem to be taking up a large chunk of training time lately.


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## Mark Lynn

Are the FMAs de-evolving?  I wouldn't say so, I think they are evolving.  Around the turn of the century, the FMAs, sure had been used in the wars (1st and 2nd WWs) but practitioners also came together to train and share ideas as well.  With the influx of the foreign martial arts came new ideas of how to teach groups and to mix arts with the FMAs which brought newer techniques and ideas into the arts.  Take the blending of Judo with the FMAs for escrido, or the influence of jujitsu/karate and the blending of FMA styles by GM Remy Presas for Modern Arnis.  Or the addition of empty hand work in Serrada Escrima, that came about in the 60's. 

This being said I think the arts are changing and becoming more sophisticated and organized.  Thus the concepts of the arts are being spread into the military (PTK) in the Philippines, and to LEO groups all over the world.  Even the use of this site and many other internet sites help the arts to grow and evolve, much less the sale of DVDs, the viewing of U Tube etc. etc.

Think of any martial art the use of techniques in real self defense or combat is generally very simple, straight forward, easily taught techniques.  How long does a real stick fight last?  Seconds?  How many techniques are done?  I would venture to say not many.  If all anyone did was just practice those techniques that won a stick fight, then there wouldn't be any empty hand skills, or very little blade work, disarming, take downs etc. etc. taught.  I think this is the reason the FMAs were unpopular in the Philippines back in the 50-70's and the imported arts were more popular.


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## geezer

Archangel M said:


> Im not sure if the whole "stick your arm out and stand still while I whirl a few dozen strikes at you" approach to training is doing anybody any favors.
> 
> [yt]N55fJyPMytE[/yt]
> 
> I understand it's place in instruction, but it does seem to be taking up a large chunk of training time lately.



_Archangel_ What a coincidence. I viewed a clip featuring the same two practitioners of LSAI shortly before starting this thread. Nothing against that system, mind you. I don't know much about it, except people say that it's founder, Mang Ben Luna Lema was amazing.  But the featured demo style which you aptly described as _"stick your arm out and stand still..."_ is... er... _unrealistic_ 
On the other hand, I know people who like to show-off like that and yet can really kick booty, so I'm not going to pass judgement.


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## Arnis7Tres5

geezer said:


> Also, I appreciate the input from _Arnis735_, since his comments inspired this thread. On the other hand, _Arnis_, I think it's fair to say that some of the old manongs _were_ pretty unique. People like that are rare in any culture!



I guess what I meant was that every generation, in every place, produces warriors.  And if we let these guys lead, the FMAs will just keep on evolving.  If we let them lead.


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## Arnis7Tres5

This is what we were referring to in the other thread, and I think it's not realistic enough.  If I was a non-FMAer and someone pointed this out to me in an attempt to impress me, I wouldn't be impressed either.



Archangel M said:


> Im not sure if the whole "stick your arm out and stand still while I whirl a few dozen strikes at you" approach to training is doing anybody any favors.
> 
> I understand it's place in instruction, but it does seem to be taking up a large chunk of training time lately.



geezer,

I think this is the point here, if the fella has more in his bag of tricks, that is what should be put out, so the MMA and TMA types don't have to waste their time looking through fluff like this, giving them plenty of chance to doubt and ridicule FMA in general (because this was the point in the last thread).



> On the other hand, I know people who like to show-off like that and yet can really kick booty, so I'm not going to pass judgement.


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## Hand Sword

Concerning this topic, I think the same arguments have been made against many other systems and there is some truth in them. For some reason, as the world can seem more violent overall, I think on the smaller level, this is not so. Statistics could be used to argue that as well. I think, it's just more people want to take up the arts as hobbies, or workouts, and maybe day care centers. I think the popularity of MMA stuff is also helping to separate the fighter types from the flowery types, which leaves the non MMA stuff for the family.

The arguments that say you can go solo with those like you gear up and have at it are right on the money. Although, I would caution views about the dog brothers and such groups. Though I have huge respect for them I always had the issue of the "realism." True, they can get nasty and the damage is definitely real-no question there. My issue is while watching their encounters, I noticed things like a full shot to one's head region, where that person then fires a full shot to the 1st person's ribs-breaking some. Totally real! But, realistically, that head shot would have knocked out the attacker or stunned enough that a full shot to the ribcage could not be an effective follow up. This would result in the person not getting broken ribs.


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## Arnis7Tres5

The Boar Man said:


> This being said I think the arts are changing and becoming more sophisticated and organized.  Thus the concepts of the arts are being spread into the military (PTK) in the Philippines, and to LEO groups all over the world.



Realistically speaking, and I hope no one takes this as a slight, there is only really one group or system doing this.

I was just reading a little bit more about Gary Faulkner, the guy who went to Pakistan to hunt down bin Laden with a sword, and all I could think of was how utterly bad *** this fella was.  

And I thought about this subject, about quality control and evolution in mind and body, and asked myself and others, as FMAers, if we had to guess (if Mr. Faulkner studied FMA) which FMA would he fall under.  Hands down, given this man's attitude and embodiment of the warrior spirit, it was PTK (then others down the line of similar spirit).

Another analogy would be the Harley-Davidson and Indian, now adays when you think these motorcycles and see the new ones driven in the streets, it's usually Bankers, lawyers, accountants.  But the essence of these machines, even before the 1%'ers, was freedom and the concept of pushing the envelope.  One person and his bike, One fighter and his art.

So like the FMA, we always talk about the Manongs and all the death matches, but really in the end the folks promoting the FMAs are safe, business men, who don't really answer challenges anymore ala the Manongs of old.  Like the Harley-Davidson, the FMAs have been hi-jacked by bankers and lawyers (literally and figuratively).

I'm not picking on any groups here, it's the individual after all that has to 'kill or be killed' with the art he practices, but I guess what I'm trying to get at here is we as a community of FMA'ers, already know what our arts as a whole is suppose to be or where it should go towards to improve.


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## Arnis7Tres5

To piggy back on Archangels solid critique,

Im also not sure if the whole "Chinese finger puzzle with sticks/Patty cake with sticks" approach to training is doing anybody any favors either.

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I understand it's place in instruction, but seems to be also taking up a large chunk of today's training lately.


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## Rich Parsons

geezer said:


> On another thread, the point was made that a lot of FMAs being taught today --especially here in the States-- lack the realism that characterized the stuff taught by the older generations of masters. Think of some of the legendary names in the FMAs: Dizon, Cabales, Villabrille, Ilustrisimo, Giron, Bacon, the Tortal family, the Latosa family, to name but a few... these guys used their arts for _fighting_. Some used them for _killing_... especially the Filipino freedom fighters resisting the Japanese during WWII. So the FMA systems that were exposed to the US public in the '70s and '80's were still lead by individuals who had seen those arts _used and tested._
> 
> Now the old generation of masters has almost entirely passed. FMAs are being widely taught by people who have never used them in anything like an actual life-or-death struggle. We see more and more fancy, flowery techniques being taught, and we no-longer _test_ what we learn. Meanwhile, the public turns increasingly to MMA, which, though a _sport_ and not the same as a life-or-death struggle, at least is constantly being pressure-tested in the ring. So where does that leave the FMAs in the modern world. Are we going to end up as another, non-functional, ritualized art form and philosophical discipline like some Japanese Budo? Worse, are we going to become another flashy, phony martial dance-form taught to kids at the corner McDojo? Or is there a way to keep the original fighting spirit and realism of the FMAs alive in the modern, civilized world?


 
We have a semi private club. If you do not want to stay no big deal. If we do not want you there no big deal we tell you to leave. The numbers are small but we get to concentrate more on individuals who really want to be there and are not afraid to be in a little bit of pain from time to time from being hit. 

As to testing, I agree that testing is very important. It has to be. The catch is even if the instructor tests it, the student knows it should work, but they also have to test it to make sure it works for them. Prime quote, "I know that, I don't Know that!".

Now for myself, I have used my training over the years. 

Have I ever had a real stick fight? 
No, because if I could get to a weapon no one ever wanted to engage, and most times they just came at me with tire irons and golf clubs and baseball bats and or axes. I survived so I think I won, but I will not say I did not get hit nor will I not say that I did not get my butt kicked form time to time either. 

Have I ever been in a sword fight?
Nope, for anytime I have met a person with a sword they have dropped their weapon and or started yelling for help or the police. 
Other than an axe I have not been attacked with a long bladed weapon by someone with intent on killing me or at least maiming me. 

Have I ever been in a knife fight?
No. Ever time I had a knife on me and they pulled there's and attacked I reacted and disarmed and coutner attacked with empty hands or with what ever was at hand to grab.
THe times I had time to pull a blade was always with people armed and in groups coming towards me, and they did not want to engage then. 

But as I stated, no matter how I know I have reacted in the past, my studnets still need to test it for themselves to know how they will react. 

I have a friend who trained in JuJitsu in the 60's and full contact Karate and Muay Thai in the 70's and even tried for 18 months to be a professional fighter. In the 80's he picked up Shotakan as something to train with his son. In the 90's he bounced around looking. 

Then he got injured and had a closed head brain injury. He started to train in the FMA's in the early 00's. To make friends with a knife. This helped him a lot as it was a tool he could carry and use. But the more training he got the more he realized he was limited in his performance and to feel safe he wanted more. 

He then started training with another life long passion of his, Shooting. He had been the target shooter and collector. Now he trains for self defense with the tool. 

He still trains in  the FMA's for keeping his timing up and other reasons, but he also realized his personal limitations and looked for the best solution for himself. Which I fully supported.


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## geezer

Arnis7Tres5 said:


> To piggy back on Archangels solid critique,
> 
> Im also not sure if the whole "Chinese finger puzzle with sticks/Patty cake with sticks" approach to training is doing anybody any favors either.
> 
> [yt]9BANuBKs1KA[/yt]
> 
> I understand it's place in instruction, but seems to be also taking up a large chunk of today's training lately.



Personally I really enjoyed watching that, but on the other hand, I know what you are getting at. Long ago I trained under a guy who hated these kind of complicated, "finger-puzzle" games. The way he moved offensively, it would be hard to ever block his attack. And if you did, he'd probably shatter your stick and hit you anyway.  He once ran across a so-called master of a system that specializes in this kind of stuff. The "master" made a few rude remarks and and my old teacher, a real fighter, could barely restrain himself. Honestly, if his wife hadn't been there to settle him down,  that so-called "master" probably would have had to pick himself up off the floor....seriously messed up.

Now for what it's worth, I'm _not_ a fighter by temperment.  And, unless I do something seriously stupid, I hope to never really use what I'm training in. So, I seek out teachers that have gone places I hope not to go and benefit, to the degree that I can, from _their_ experience.


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## Arnis7Tres5

geezer said:


> Now for what it's worth, I'm _not_ a fighter by temperment.  And, unless I do something seriously stupid, I hope to never really use what I'm training in. So, I seek out teachers that have gone places I hope not to go and benefit, to the degree that I can, from _their_ experience.




Some people learn from their mistakes, but smart people learn from other people's mistakes.


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## Arnis7Tres5

geezer said:


> Personally I really enjoyed watching that, but on the other hand, I know what you are getting at. Long ago I trained under a guy who hated these kind of complicated, "finger-puzzle" games. The way he moved offensively, it would be hard to ever block his attack. And if you did, he'd probably shatter your stick and hit you anyway.  He once ran across a so-called master of a system that specializes in this kind of stuff. The "master" made a few rude remarks and and my old teacher, a real fighter, could barely restrain himself. Honestly, if his wife hadn't been there to settle him down,  that so-called "master" probably would have had to pick himself up off the floor....seriously messed up.



(Sorry my response was chopped by a few hours, was busy celebrating the Lakers win last night).

That is exactly what I'm talking about, geezer.  We all know the need and the utility of quality control in the field of martial art.  Too bad, your master's wife was there, because there are way too many "masters" like that (teaching BS to fluff their curriculum), in bad need of a little beating if not for simply being a Dmbas$, then for the sake of our arts.  As R. Kelly once sang, "Ain't nothing wrong with a little bump and grind."

But then again, if there was opportunity for this challenge to happen, chances are that "master" would have backed down regardless or maybe call the cops.  These are the types of people representing the FMA now.  Either it's because they are *spineless* or are just thinking about making money from seminars and camps.

That's why I like PTK and the folks that lead it.  They've invited others and they are open to challenges, in the same spirit as the Manongs who are always invoked in the FMAs.  There are individuals from other camps who stand ready too, but only this group seem, as a whole, to take the duty of quality control in the FMA seriously.

And as students, I think we too have a responsibility in this quality control.  Too many times during seminars or watching youtube demos, we're always saying "nice, thanks for sharing" or "great video", when we should be asking has that been combat tested? Is that applicable in a real serious fight? We need to start calling these "masters" out and exposing them.

Let's encourage them all to answer challenges, fight in Dog Brother type matches and to stop posting videos that don't represent the FMA correctly, like the above videos, and start posting sparring videos (beginner to advance type fights, ensuring it's realistic, show the technique, then test it).  I'm sick and tired of watching beer bellies when I type in FMA or Arnis or Modern or Eskrima or Filipino Martial arts in youtube (especially beer bellies on the beach).  I'm sure everyone feels the same.  

As my uncle and instructor in Balintawak loves to remind me, Lihok! (Move!) and my new instructors now, "It's not called Pekiti-Stand Still".  There's no room for mediocrity.  No Room.


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## K831

geezer said:


> On another thread, the point was made that a lot of FMAs being taught today --especially here in the States-- lack the realism that characterized the stuff taught by the older generations of masters. Think of some of the legendary names in the FMAs: Dizon, Cabales, Villabrille, Ilustrisimo, Giron, Bacon, the Tortal family, the Latosa family, to name but a few... these guys used their arts for _fighting_. Some used them for _killing_... especially the Filipino freedom fighters resisting the Japanese during WWII. So the FMA systems that were exposed to the US public in the '70s and '80's were still lead by individuals who had seen those arts _used and tested._



I think just about any and all MA lack realism if the practitioners aren't regularly "fighting/killing" etc. But not everyone is going to be out doing that. I have countless police and military friends who say that the academy/boot camp etc was nothing like the real thing. That's just the nature of it. My own fights etc have shown this to be true. 

I think it can be mitigated in two ways;

1.) Train with people or associations where the individual instructor or a good portion of the group have real experience. It helps if they are intelligent and honest enough to evaluate and compare their techniques to those experiences. I know we have talked about this, but this notion is what pushed me from the various Kenpo associations and landed me with Mr. Mills and the AKKI. What they do is constantly evaluated and changed based on the sum experiences of many, many real-deal members. 

2.) We can't all kill or be killed in every day life, so learn from those who have when you can, otherwise, make your training as "live" as possible. Many ways to do this; drills, sparring etc.... they just have to be understood in context. That's how I feel about the "leave your arm out there while the other guy does his technique" idea. If that is all a school did, I would say there is a problem, however, all the internet warriors on youtube hammering clips for doing that are missing the point. Those drills are no less practical then hitting a heavy bag that "just sits there". You are training a particular skill set and modality, just understand it as such. 



geezer said:


> Now the old generation of masters has almost entirely passed. FMAs are being widely taught by people who have never used them in anything like an actual life-or-death struggle. We see more and more fancy, flowery techniques being taught, and we no-longer _test_ what we learn.



Both true. As others have said, we need to work harder at "testing" what we are doing. That starts with the simple things; don't punch off to the side of my head, punch right at me! Training just needs to be as alive as possible. 



geezer said:


> Meanwhile, the public turns increasingly to MMA, which, though a _sport_ and not the same as a life-or-death struggle, at least is constantly being pressure-tested in the ring.



And the test will prove valuable to a point. But pressure tested in the ring really only tells you what will happen in that context, not much else. 

I competed in various combat sports, wrestling in HS and MMA types through college. Never once, did any competition cause the emotional/adrenal/psychological effect that a real altercation caused. I've just seen too many skilled ring fighter fall apart when it got real, to really buy much of that argument. MMA suffers from the same problem you mentioned, the old timers 





geezer said:


> used their arts for _fighting_. Some used them for _killing_...



MMA doesn't do either, the bigger problem is that so many think it does, but thats another topic. 



geezer said:


> So where does that leave the FMAs in the modern world. Are we going to end up as another, non-functional, ritualized art form and philosophical discipline like some Japanese Budo?


 Yes, much of it will. 



geezer said:


> Worse, are we going to become another flashy, phony martial dance-form taught to kids at the corner McDojo?



Yes, unfortunately we will see some of that too. Although the pervasive weapon use, particularly edged weapons, will keep lots of soccer moms and their kids away. 



geezer said:


> Or is there a way to keep the original fighting spirit and realism of the FMAs alive in the modern, civilized world?



Absolutely, and when I get back, I'll punch you right in the nose to remind you how!  

I don't know much about this guy, but I think a lot of his videos show that he keeps it real. He has a good mix of mitt work, two man sets and drills, and sparring stuff to keep it alive. The sparing at the end of this video is great because it is done at a pace where they aren't trying to take each others heads off, but it is alive enough to really work on timing, angles etc. and it's obvious the sessions is geared towards working on certain aspects of fighting. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjqKhVHLRj4&playnext_from=TL&videos=J0312Ix2X1k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rh-eKTIf34E&playnext_from=TL&videos=cbT0NIul-oY


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## Arnis7Tres5

Here's another joker:

[yt]5wiX29O9k_U[/yt]


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## The Game

Interesting.  Of course, you also have to consider the true cowards who'll show up just to cause trouble, then lie about it in deep dark rat holes on the web. I know a few of those hacks. Usually turn out to be sad bitter wannabes who you never see vids from because if they did it would expose them, you know?  Not saying there's not an assload of crap out there, becauze there is, but any loser with a keyboard can be a critic. I give more cred to the guy who puts his stuff out there for peer review, and then rips others.  Love to see your stuff Arnis. See if you're a Joker or an Ace, or how your decks stacked.


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## Archangel M

I think people need to use caution with youtube video. It can be great as an "example"..I was just searching for an example of the "hang out your arm" thing and thats what I found. Don't take that as "this is all this guy does"..I have no proof of that.

I would hesitate to judge anybodies proficiency based on 1-2 youtube videos. All it is is a snapshot, who knows what the intent was behind filming it? Show an individual technique? Practice a specific skill set? If ALL you see of a person is the same stuff over and over or you have personally trained with the person, that could be a different story.


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## Arnis7Tres5

The Game said:


> Interesting.  Of course, you also have to consider the true cowards who'll show up just to cause trouble, then lie about it in deep dark rat holes on the web. I know a few of those hacks. Usually turn out to be sad bitter wannabes who you never see vids from because if they did it would expose them, you know?  Not saying there's not an assload of crap out there, becauze there is, but any loser with a keyboard can be a critic. I give more cred to the guy who puts his stuff out there for peer review, and then rips others.  Love to see your stuff Arnis. See if you're a Joker or an Ace, or how your decks stacked.



I already said I was a student.  I'm no "Master".  I don't own a McDojo and don't conduct camps.

Just an FMA student sick and tired of all the mediocrity. I'm part of the silent majority, sick and tired of fake "masters" out there.  I agree with geezer, the FMAs will continue to devolve if we are not allowed to critique these so called "masters".  Ask why you are offended, the Game.


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## The Game

If your no "Master" and "just a student" then maybe the error is yours, and that what you are complaining about is simply your lack of real comprehension and understanding, and not really a problem.  Maybe what you think is mediocrity is just your inability to understand what you are seeing in the correct light.

Or maybe it is **** after all. But I'm not offended. What makes you think I'm offended?
I just hate all the assclowns that float around talking smack without the rocks to back it up. It's easy to pull a clip and say someone sucks. Quite a lot they do, but not for the reasons beginners and wannabes think. Then theres your "McDojo" comment which again shows your color.

For a critique to be of value, the value of the critiqer must be known. You wouldn't let the frycook at a McDonalds evaluate the food at The Ritz any more than some hack with a few months in the arts is qualified to evaluate the qualitys of a supposed master.   

I value critiques that matter. Yours does not. You've removed any worth to your views by your own self-discreditatationing. Just means you've lost, The Game.

HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa!


----------



## Arnis7Tres5

The Game said:


> For a critique to be of value, the value of the critiqer must be known. You wouldn't let the frycook at a McDonalds evaluate the food at The Ritz any more than some hack with a few months in the arts is qualified to evaluate the qualitys of a supposed master.
> 
> I value critiques that matter. Yours does not. You've removed any worth to your views by your own self-discreditatationing. Just means you've lost, The Game.
> 
> HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa!



I've heard of literary snobs, there are Mcdojo snobs too?  Watch those videos and ask why people are making their critique, it's not arkane at all, you look at what they do and you evaluate base on common sense.

That's the problem here.  The idea that you have to be a "Master" to understand this mysterious BS.  Kinda like the Bible thumpers saying "God works in mysterious ways", which effectively ends any constructive criticism in our community.  PTK is NOT like this, they say is 'Bring it'.  Bring it.  No kissing of Datu's as$, just Bring it.


----------



## Guro Harold

Arnis7Tres5 said:


> Here's another joker:
> 
> [yt]5wiX29O9k_U[/yt]


Say what you will about this group, at least they posted publicly on this site and personally shared and defended their beliefs.

That took guts.

There have been several individuals including myself who have opened themselves to public scrutiny by announcing their promotions on MartialTalk.

Members had free opportunity to discuss, debate, question, and acknowledge those announcements and pretty much did so with professionalism.

Therefore, we on MT don't need any assistance in determining the smell of BS, we have pretty good working noses, thank-you.


----------



## The Game

Arnis7Tres5 said:


> I've heard of literary snobs, there are Mcdojo snobs too?  Watch those videos and ask why people are making their critique, it's not arkane at all, you look at what they do and you evaluate base on common sense.
> 
> That's the problem here.  The idea that you have to be a "Master" to understand this mysterious BS.  Kinda like the Bible thumpers saying "God works in mysterious ways", which effectively ends any constructive criticism in our community.  PTK is NOT like this, they say is 'Bring it'.  Bring it.  No kissing of Datu's as$, just Bring it.


Who's kissing any ***? Who brought datus in the mix? 

*Sniff* *Sniff*

You smell, familiar.

Things are getting wild here man, someones gonna pay the bill. Not me, but I do have to see a man about a haircut. hahahahaha

As to the original question "Are the FMAs "devolving" from the lack of real combat testing?" be serious.  real combat today is done by guys running around with AR15's and better, wearing ceramic body armor, riding in humvees, or dropped on you from a mile up by an unarmed drone. It's not done by half naked islanders with cutsie little curley blades wacking on each other with tall grass. "Real Combat", someone's been drinking the kool aide there. Too much time camping out in the woods playing army man huh?


----------



## Arnis7Tres5

Guro Harold said:


> Say what you will about this group, at least they posted publicly on this site and personally shared and defended their beliefs.
> 
> That took guts.
> 
> There have been several individuals including myself who have opened themselves to public scrutiny by announcing their promotions on MartialTalk.
> 
> Members had free opportunity to discuss, debate, question, and acknowledge those announcements and pretty much did so with professionalism.
> 
> Therefore, we on MT don't need any assistance in determining the smell of BS, we have pretty good working noses, thank-you.



Greetings Guru,

I didn't know you knew of this group and/or affiliated with them in some way.  But the title of this thread is _"Are the FMAs "devolving" from the lack of real combat testing?/ Why Testing the Efficacy of techniques in real Combat is very Important"_.  

We believe that the FMAs are 'devolving' because people who are not qualified are now teaching and representing the FMA.  And I think a lot of it has to do with money, just simply making money will water down our arts.  People "collect" techniques, without understanding the big picture and then teach them in seminars.  

We posted the youtube videos as examples, 1) Stick your arm straight while I pretend hit you with my stick a bunch of times, 2) Chinese finger puzzles with sticks and 3) Turning around like a Sufi mystic while I fight.

*1)* I did check out this fella's other videos and I think he is a true fighter, only his demo is somewhat old school, he needs to do more realistic type demos.  But Archangel made a good point in exposing this, we need to push the envelope when we're trying to represent our Art.

*2)* Can you imagine playing Chinese stick puzzles with some of the hardcore Black Eagle Society, Dog Brothers or PTK fighters? There is no excuse for this BS.

*3)* OR turning your back towards your enemy when fighting with PTK warriors?  I don't even know how you can defend turning your back on your opponent.  I tried to look for the thread you've mentioned, but couldn't find it so please point me towards this discussion.  There is a serious problem if some "Master" says 'we teach our students to turn their backs on their enemy', and a bunch of you "Agree to DisAgree" amicably and professionally.  Because I would think, quality control aside, you all would be standing idly by while some joker (obviously never having combat tested his techniques) teach kids to turn their backs on their enemies during a fight, with weapons no less.

We've only posted these videos as examples of what geezer calls the "devolving" of the FMA.  I can understand defending the first video, because this is more a matter of presentation.  But I can't see, grown men, with worldly experience, defending Chinese stick puzzles and turning your back on your enemy.  

If you think they'll work, bring it, bring it to the laboratory of combat testing.  Until such time, all we are asking is to cease and desist from teaching until you've tested it in *a challenge or full contact match*.  I don't understand why Game's got his panties in a bunch, that's all I'm saying.  Quality control to stop this "devolving" process in the FMA.  There is nothing to fear, but fear itself, fellas.


----------



## Archangel M

That back turning thing. 

I would hope that anybody, regardless of their apparent issues, would think THAT was a bad idea.


----------



## Arnis7Tres5

The Game said:


> real combat today is done by guys running around with AR15's and better, wearing ceramic body armor, riding in humvees, or dropped on you from a mile up by an unarmed drone. It's not done by half naked islanders with cutsie little curley blades wacking on each other with tall grass. "Real Combat", someone's been drinking the kool aide there. Too much time camping out in the woods playing army man huh?



I wasn't talking about OEF or OIF, but now that you've mentioned it, it's now obvious someone's never served or been down range, here.  'cutsie little curley blades' or blades in general will get your asz out of bind in a fire fight gone wrong.  Why do you think PTK trains American and Filipino military personnel, or LEOs the world over?  You think tweakers or felons don't use knives and swords? Check yourself before you wreck yo'self, kid.  Don't take this personal, if you have something to add, add, otherwise just follow the discussion.  Like I said don't get offended for your Datu, he's making bank.  Tell him to answer the Challenge instead, it's been offered plenty of times.:jediduel:


----------



## Arnis7Tres5

The Game said:


> real combat today is done by guys dropped on you from a mile up by an unarmed drone.



I haven't watched the A-Team yet.  How'd they ride the drones, just piggie back on it like this:







then get exfilled like this:

[yt]2_zJgUPTCHg[/yt]

You're funny, kid.


----------



## The Game

"I don't understand why Game's got his panties in a bunch, that's all I'm saying."
"Like I said don't get offended for your Datu, he's making bank. Tell him to answer the Challenge instead, it's been offered plenty of times."

You losers really are fixated aren't you. I thought I smelled troll. Wonder how well your ID would validate to verify your registration's legit.  Why don't you explain this Challenge you mention. I'm sure some here would enjoy seeing how your whole involvement's just more "I got a Harton for Hartman" drivel.

For those new, it's a 20 year old love fest, of hacks, wanna bes, tag alongs, and never coulds, chasing one fat white guy from Buffalo all over the net, using every excuse, lie, etc, including trespassing, harassment, character defamation, libel and internet security violations because they suck donkey balls when it comes to skill, who are laughed at by most legit players.

Crawl back in your toilet, turd. This isn't the place for you. Try some Tapioca, if it's not crashing on you again that is. hahahahahahaha


You said combat.  Combats done with guns and bombs. Ain't seen a Marine carry his sword into combat in, oh, 100+ years. As they say, if you're using knives, someone done ****ed up the mission.


----------



## Arnis7Tres5

The Game said:


> "I don't understand why Game's got his panties in a bunch, that's all I'm saying."
> "Like I said don't get offended for your Datu, he's making bank. Tell him to answer the Challenge instead, it's been offered plenty of times."
> 
> You losers really are fixated aren't you. I thought I smelled troll. Wonder how well your ID would validate to verify your registration's legit.  Why don't you explain this Challenge you mention. I'm sure some here would enjoy seeing how your whole involvement's just more "I got a Harton for Hartman" drivel.
> 
> For those new, it's a 20 year old love fest, of hacks, wanna bes, tag alongs, and never coulds, chasing one fat white guy from Buffalo all over the net, using every excuse, lie, etc, including trespassing, harassment, character defamation, libel and internet security violations because they suck donkey balls when it comes to skill, who are laughed at by most legit players.
> 
> Crawl back in your toilet, turd. This isn't the place for you. Try some Tapioca, if it's not crashing on you again that is. hahahahahahaha
> 
> You said combat.  Combats done with guns and bombs. Ain't seen a Marine carry his sword into combat in, oh, 100+ years. As they say, if you're using knives, someone done ****ed up the mission.



You're not adding to the discussion anymore, Game.  This thread isn't about your Datu, but you're making it seem like it.  And you obviously have no combat experience.  Why do you think Marines carry K-Bars, for decoration?  Cops carry an average of 3 folders on watch.  As for swords, one guy in our neck of the woods just got arrested for killing 2 with a Samurai sword.  If you think blades are a thing of the past, then the "devolving" of the FMAs may now be complete--for you.  You need to have a heart to heart with your "master", cause he's obviously setting you up for failure.


----------



## Hand Sword

Sorry, I have to fess up. I think what you were all smelling, and caused the thread itself to "devolve" was me. I let one go while lurking in the background. Sorry for the problems! :fart: :uhyeah:


----------



## The Game

Arnis7Tres5 said:


> You're not adding to the discussion anymore, Game.  This thread isn't about your Datu, but you're making it seem like it.  And you obviously have no combat experience.  Why do you think Marines carry K-Bars, for decoration?  Cops carry an average of 3 folders on watch.  As for swords, one guy in our neck of the woods just got arrested for killing 2 with a Samurai sword.  If you think blades are a thing of the past, then the "devolving" of the FMAs may now be complete--for you.  You need to have a heart to heart with your "master", cause he's obviously setting you up for failure.


No, you screwed the pooch here with your veiled agenda, troll.  But, you're right in one way. I'll let the cleanup crew deal with your sorry loser troll ***, and I'll let the adults get back to discussing martial arts.

But some drunk ******* waving a $20 flea market sword around like he's ****ing Goku isn't combat. Dangerous, yeah, but it ain't ****ing combat, dick.  Maybe your 'master' needs to explain that to you, if he's not too busy trespassing, or having his cronies do his dirty work.  Running around the jungle playing Rambo isn't combat either, but you wouldn't know that wild man. 

FMA is good for what it's good for. But I don't consider it, or any other 'art' currently taught, "Combat". If they were, you'd have Datu's, and Sokes, and guys with a dozen huge *** belts teaching boot camp and training the ground pounders.  But, you don't, do you?  Explain to me when the last time was you heard about some private who carried a couple broom handles into battle with him in Bagdad. Or, how they took a curly blade on a recon in Afghanastan, and lopped off a couple Taliturbs.  Nah, you don't know ****, neither do your buddies.  FMA, Karate, Kendo, all this stuff, doesn't fit combat, hasn't in over 100 years.  So crying about the 'devolving' **** like it's happening now, is just plain stupid.  It's like crying because you can't get musket balls to fight with. Or maybe it's just a lack of balls period for some people. You got me there booboo. But, go play rambutt with your crazy buddies in the woods and tell yourselves how you're "real".  Some buddy of mine with a sniper unit will airrate your brain from a mile away. Block that booboo.


----------



## The Game

Hand Sword said:


> Sorry, I have to fess up. I think what you were all smelling, and caused the thread itself to "devolve" was me. I let one go while lurking in the background. Sorry for the problems! :fart: :uhyeah:


Too much spicey food huh?   It does that to me too.
:fart:


----------



## Arnis7Tres5

The Game said:


> No, you screwed the pooch here with your veiled agenda, troll.  But, you're right in one way. I'll let the cleanup crew deal with your sorry loser troll ***, and I'll let the adults get back to discussing martial arts.
> 
> But some drunk ******* waving a $20 flea market sword around like he's ****ing Goku isn't combat. Dangerous, yeah, but it ain't ****ing combat, dick.  Maybe your 'master' needs to explain that to you, if he's not too busy trespassing, or having his cronies do his dirty work.  Running around the jungle playing Rambo isn't combat either, but you wouldn't know that wild man.
> 
> FMA is good for what it's good for. But I don't consider it, or any other 'art' currently taught, "Combat". If they were, you'd have Datu's, and Sokes, and guys with a dozen huge *** belts teaching boot camp and training the ground pounders.  But, you don't, do you?  Explain to me when the last time was you heard about some private who carried a couple broom handles into battle with him in Bagdad. Or, how they took a curly blade on a recon in Afghanastan, and lopped off a couple Taliturbs.  Nah, you don't know ****, neither do your buddies.  FMA, Karate, Kendo, all this stuff, doesn't fit combat, hasn't in over 100 years.  So crying about the 'devolving' **** like it's happening now, is just plain stupid.  It's like crying because you can't get musket balls to fight with. Or maybe it's just a lack of balls period for some people. You got me there booboo. But, go play rambutt with your crazy buddies in the woods and tell yourselves how you're "real".  Some buddy of mine with a sniper unit will airrate your brain from a mile away. Block that booboo.



I'm sorry you're all worked up about this, kid.  But if you think some guy trained or not, wielding a sword and trying to kill you is 'no problem', not combat, then your definition of combat is skewed, kid. 

Like I said, Marines and soldiers carry knives, some carry really big knives, maybe not swords since the primary weapon is a rifle, but all Military and LEOs carry blades.  And they go to combat, the difference is an average fire fight can last hours to days and a cop getting it on will take seconds or minutes.  This is not some fantasy game, kid.

I'm sure your sniper "friend" will have with him a sharp knife, ask him why.


----------



## Arnis7Tres5

The Game said:


> FMA is good for what it's good for. But I don't consider it, or any other 'art' currently taught, "Combat".



Well, this is probably because you're doing Chinese stick puzzles and stick twirlings all day long.  I understand the disconnect in your mind, since you've never served and obviously have the wrong view of the FMA.  Get to where the rubber meets the road and you'll change your mind.  FMA isn't about little children in gi's, hitting each other with padded sticks, with their mommies and daddies cheering them on, then a visit to *McDonald's* after for a happy meal.  It's not kids soccer, forchrisakes...


----------



## Hand Sword

Trying to pull a point from bitter, emotional arguing, What FMA is and is not (going by the last post) is why exactly it hasn't devolved. After all it's swinging hard sticks at each other! At full speed! They are the same techniques passed down by those with the FMA hand to hand experiences. Now, practice in the big picture (all schools) may have de-emphasized the training styles, as I mentioned most of the other arts have done too, in order to preserve their students for the long haul. Too many injuries tends to thin out the student population. 

Ultimately all of the arts have become commercial. If you want more, you have all the right to train on your own time the way that you want to.


----------



## Hand Sword

Everyone keep in mind too, that great skill is not needed when weapons are used. An untrained swing, at full speed, and connection to your skull will cause the same damage as a trained one. A blade cuts for any wielder, trained or not.


----------



## Arnis7Tres5

The Game said:


> So crying about the 'devolving' **** like it's happening now, is just plain stupid.  It's like crying because you can't get musket balls to fight with.



You basically proved the point of this thread, kid.  Devolving of the FMA is you.  You think combat can only be done by soldiers and rifles.  That is a failure in imagination, and the cause is the McDojo-izing of the FMAs.  

A failure in thought.  Look who's acting like a troll, kid.  You've just disrespected a man who trains US Navy SEALs and SF in the Philippines, along with Filipino soldiers.  Who has trained police officers internationally since the 70s.  Some of us actually use what we study, this is the reason we demand the best.  

You don't understand, yet you're still typing.  Take some time to read and re-read what you've just sent.  Please.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Well, let me interrupt the game of back and forth stick measuring going on and interject something not dealing with personal grudges, internet vendettas, and so on.

I don't think they are devolving. Every school I've looked at is for the most part still swinging sticks, slashing with swords, stabbing with knives, and tossing each other around without weapons. I haven't seen any put the rattan down and reach for a caveman club, or stone knives, yet. Plastic knives yes, stone no. 

But there is a disconnect I think, between being able to run a commercially viable school where you have to make rent, cover utilities (at biz rates, not cheap home rates), obtain insurance, pay staff and advertise, compared to someone teaching as a hobby out of a basement or garage who doesn't worry about "crazy" things like mats for the ground, or insurance in case someone gets hurt, or those taxes that always come up somehow.

Kids are of course the life-blood of any commercial school, and you just don't toss a 10 yr old around like a crash test dummy, or put a live blade in their hands. It's just not too smart, not if you want to still have a house after the lawsuits end.

I think the confusion here is often times hobbyists without the requirements, or understanding of commercial school operation, or dealing with kids, screaming about "watered down" and the famous "mcdojo" comment.  Most kids today do the arts as a hobby, and neither they nor their parents will tolerate the "old school" training, which while hardening them up and teaching by immersion can be excellent methods, tend to leave one bruised, bloodied and sometimes quite busted up.  Send a kid home like that, you can expect a visit from Child Services and the boys in blue I'm sure.

Sure, some are crap. Like was mentioned, there are tons of videos out there that show it. But, like was also said, some of it lack of understanding by the viewer.  Opinions on those, are subjective, and we can all view the same video, and all have different opinions, based on our own experiences, etc.  

Maybe the real question here isn't one of devolution, but of evolution.

How are the FMA's evolving to adapt to changing needs, and new situations? Combat arts are just that, combat. But not every encounter is life or death. Not every match is a death match. Not every fight should mean someone gets their block lopped off. How do the combat arts, born of tribal warfare, and the necessities of a World War, where you could crash course the core in a few weeks, evolve to fit into a society where most members will devote 45-90 minutes a week at best to train, for a confrontation not against a group of sword swinging warriors, but knife and gun weilding muggers.

That's my question.


Oh and guys, enough already with the shots. Otherwise, you can send us notarized copies of your ID to prove who you say you are or get the ban stick. This site doesn't care about -that- issue and we don't want it here, at all. 
End of that discussion.
Danke.


----------



## Arnis7Tres5

Bob Hubbard said:


> Oh and guys, enough already with the shots. Otherwise, you can send us notarized copies of your ID to prove who you say you are or get the ban stick. This site doesn't care about -that- issue and we don't want it here, at all.
> End of that discussion.
> Danke.



Sorry about that, Bob.  But the kid, the Game, had it comin'.



> I think the confusion here is often times hobbyists without the requirements, or understanding of commercial school operation, or dealing with kids, screaming about "watered down" and the famous "mcdojo" comment. Most kids today do the arts as a hobby, and neither they nor their parents will tolerate the "old school" training, which while hardening them up and teaching by immersion can be excellent methods, tend to leave one bruised, bloodied and sometimes quite busted up. Send a kid home like that, you can expect a visit from Child Services and the boys in blue I'm sure.



The product or the outcome, if you will, of that type of training is the Game, and kids similarly trained.  The kids do not understand anymore why or what they are learning.  He's successfully separated in his mind the FMA and combat, when those two are one and the same.  You learn the FMA because you are going to combat, not some padded stick competition.



> How are the FMA's evolving to adapt to changing needs, and new situations? Combat arts are just that, combat. But not every encounter is life or death. Not every match is a death match. Not every fight should mean someone gets their block lopped off. How do the combat arts, born of tribal warfare, and the necessities of a World War, where you could crash course the core in a few weeks, evolve to fit into a society where most members will devote 45-90 minutes a week at best to train, for a confrontation not against a group of sword swinging warriors, but knife and gun weilding muggers.



This is similar to the Game's thought process.  To me this proves the danger of McDojo FMA, which causes this type of thinking.  "Knife and gun weilding muggers" or "a group of sword swinging warriors" is combat.  It's life or death.  The needs are the same, Bob.  There're people who have used the FMA in Iraq, Afghanistan and surely back in the Philippines.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

But.  It's not all 'life or death'.   Guy jumps me in the park, I carve him up, -I- am the guy who has to deal with an assault/murder rap.  In combat, people die.  In a fight, you might get hurt. Different result.  That whole escalation of force thing.

Of course, this "its all combat" approach is one view. But there are enough who disagree.  Then again, it depends on how you define combat. Under a loose definition, I'll grant it's all combat. But my definition is where it's potentially lethal.  I don't consider a football game to be combat, or a boxing match combat.  A fight, a struggle, a conflict, but not combat.  Combat to me involves soldiers, not athletes. But that's my personal definitions. Mr. Webster probably disagrees. lol!

I also don't believe that the FMA is any 'better/worse' than the CMA/JMA/KMA/etc. FMA to me is just a broad term, and the individual components under it are more, or less, ranged in combat, conflict, offense, defense, and lethality, and I highly doubt any of us would agree on what falls where on each scale.  MA to me is a self-defense are. PT a combat art. and so on.

You learn -martial arts- for any of a hundred reasons. Some people learn the FMA so that they can excel at padded weapons events. Some for fitness. Some for dexterity. Some for weapons mastery. Some for social time. And so on.
It's their reason for doing. Some expand and learn more and get in deeper, others never pass the hobby stage.

Who am I to say either is wrong?

As to training, I'm sorry, but I don't think I want a 10 yr old to play with a live blade, or even a live stick. Not until they learn to respect the weapon, and that will never happen if you send the kid home black and blue from the uncontrolled shots of his classmates, much less the traditional 'wack em into line' instructors. Especially not in the US today.

I think there are places where hard training fits, but what a cop or soldier needs, is different than what a hobbyist needs, or even wants.

Least, that's my opinions, but it's late, and I need sleep, so lets try not to burn the forum down tonight eh?


----------



## Arnis7Tres5

Bob, I'm just making a larger comment on this type of mindset, and how it directly relates to the "devolving" of the FMA, since failure in imagination and thought is central to this subject



The Game said:


> Maybe your 'master' needs to explain that to you, if he's not too busy trespassing, or having his cronies do his dirty work.  Running around the jungle playing Rambo



The sad part of this McDojo FMA vs. Combat FMA divide is that we now have a generation of FMA students ridiculing FMAers who strive and push the envelope of the FMA day in and day out, instead of thanking them.  Taking and testing techniques in the laboratory of combat is what only a very few in the FMA community do, yet you have so many hang on the coat tails to benefit.  It's not so much the hobbyist vs. business owners argument, but more between the timid versus those that want to keep the combat aspect of the FMA and keep pushing for it.

It seems like the very people involved in the "devolving" of the FMA are almost proud of it.  Proud of their ignorance.


----------



## Arnis7Tres5

Bob Hubbard said:


> But.  It's not all 'life or death'.   Guy jumps me in the park, I carve him up, -I- am the guy who has to deal with an assault/murder rap.  In combat, people die.  In a fight, you might get hurt. Different result.  That whole escalation of force thing.
> 
> Of course, this "its all combat" approach is one view. But there are enough who disagree.  Then again, it depends on how you define combat. Under a loose definition, I'll grant it's all combat. But my definition is where it's potentially lethal.  I don't consider a football game to be combat, or a boxing match combat.  A fight, a struggle, a conflict, but not combat.  Combat to me involves soldiers, not athletes. But that's my personal definitions. Mr. Webster probably disagrees.



This type of thinking allows one to think that Chinese stick puzzles and turning your back on your enemy technique to flourish.  Life or death, is what's going to save your life, Bob.  That mind set.  I think there was a book written by a police officer and an SF fella about how to correctly approach a fight or combat.  Most FMA schools are losing this mentality, because they are taught by subpar people who do not understand combat and the mindset it requires to survive it. 

Now granted you should use the front of your brain, as well as the back of your brain, but during the fight or combat you have to think it's me or him, no question about that.  And that's what's missing in McDojo FMA, as demonstrated by the Game's lack of understanding in this area.  Somewhere along the line, something was lost.




> You learn -martial arts- for any of a hundred reasons. Some people learn the FMA so that they can excel at padded weapons events. Some for fitness. Some for dexterity. Some for weapons mastery. Some for social time. And so on.  It's their reason for doing. Some expand and learn more and get in deeper, others never pass the hobby stage.



If you just want to excel at padded weapons events you can just buy one of those Nerf swords and play with the neighborhood kids, no need to learn FMA.  Fitness, you can buy P90X or join a local CrossFit, there're hotter girls there, compared to the fuglies doing FMAs (but that's another topic).  For dexterity take up break dance or ball room dancing.  Social time, join your local toastmasters or join a church choir.  Now for weapons mastery, the only way you'll master a weapon is if you understand what and why you are using it.  If you say you are learning it to play patty cakes with sticks, then you'll never master it.  If if you say you are learning it for combat.  Then your mind is in the right place.  And that is where everything starts.


----------



## Guro Harold

Arnis7Tres5 said:


> Greetings Guru,
> 
> I didn't know you knew of this group and/or affiliated with them in some way.  But the title of this thread is _"Are the FMAs "devolving" from the lack of real combat testing?/ Why Testing the Efficacy of techniques in real Combat is very Important"_.


I am not. And that wasn't the point.

The point was right or wrong, good or bad, we have had professional and critical discussions regarding groups and individuals on MT. And some who have personally discussed their views here.

Are we clear?


----------



## Grenadier

*ATTENTION ALL USERS*

Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. 

Please review our sniping policy http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=71377. 

Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). 

Thank you.

Ronald Shin
-MT Supermoderator


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Arnis7Tres5 said:


> This type of thinking allows one to think that Chinese stick puzzles and turning your back on your enemy technique to flourish.  Life or death, is what's going to save your life, Bob.  That mind set.  I think there was a book written by a police officer and an SF fella about how to correctly approach a fight or combat.  Most FMA schools are losing this mentality, because they are taught by subpar people who do not understand combat and the mindset it requires to survive it.



In looking at the great variety of blades and hilts one finds in Filipino swords, I see something that you're missing.  That being, there are a lot of different opinions on what the 'right tool' is. How it's shaped, how it's formed, how it functions, and why it should be used.  That tells me that there is more than 1 way, more than 1 option. Even in the FMA.  Chinese society and CMA are older than the FMA. Concepts and ideologies again, different. So there is more than one "right way" here.  Not all schools exist to train you for war. They don't have to, because we don't live in a war zone.



> Now granted you should use the front of your brain, as well as the back of your brain, but during the fight or combat you have to think it's me or him, no question about that.  And that's what's missing in McDojo FMA, as demonstrated by the Game's lack of understanding in this area.  Somewhere along the line, something was lost.



What was lost was the -need- to train warriors, to battle constantly for land, and food, and resources, and mates. What was lost was an occupying force that necessitated constant combat preparation. What was lost was the time to spend 8 hours a day, every day, training and honing ones skills, with the idea of being a warrior the reason one woke up in the morning.



> If you just want to excel at padded weapons events you can just buy one of those Nerf swords and play with the neighborhood kids, no need to learn FMA.  Fitness, you can buy P90X or join a local CrossFit, there're hotter girls there, compared to the fuglies doing FMAs (but that's another topic).  For dexterity take up break dance or ball room dancing.  Social time, join your local toastmasters or join a church choir.  Now for weapons mastery, the only way you'll master a weapon is if you understand what and why you are using it.  If you say you are learning it to play patty cakes with sticks, then you'll never master it.  If if you say you are learning it for combat.  Then your mind is in the right place.  And that is where everything starts.



I'll agree with most of this.  Yes you could.  But some won't. Some don't seek mastery, but diversion. As I said, most people don't have time to spend training to be a warrior, master of the martial arts, highly trained killing machine. Most people don't want their kids training for warfare either. This is why you really never see any school advertising with stuff like "Bring us your kids and in 4 weeks they'll be able to cut throats, break bones, and disembowel their enemies like the warriors of Lapu Lapu.".  Personally, I'd love to see the ad slick on that, little Tommy standing over the body of his enemy, raising the bloody knife to his lips to savor the sweet nectar.  But I suspect some parents would complain and it'd get pulled.

No, today you market things and push the currently acceptable benefits of training. You use words like 'honor', and 'success' and 'pride' and 'respect'. You push the physical fitness, the confidence, the balance, and the social interaction. You use safe training methods to minimize the chance of injury, and you make the training relevant to what is going on in your neighborhood. All this while competing against after school programs, and little league, and dance, and such for a limited disposable income that people have today.

You call it a McDojo, because it caters to it's customers. I call it a commercial business that must satisfy it's customers. Not everyone has an inheritance or government check to live off while they "teach for free". The days of living poor and training warriors while the village takes care of you is over, in much of the world.

I'm of course sure that somewhere in the PI, on a beach, in a hut, is the best fighter ever, who trains from sun rise to sun set, who like the masters of old uses his cane to beat his students into line, who has withstood challenge after challenge, whos killed countless enemies and who fits this 'mythical' warrior archtype that the "real combat" folks fantasize about.  Being in his presence would probably curdle my blood.  But I'll never meet him.  Which is sad, because I'd probably learn more in a month than I have in a decade.  But, I'm not a warrior, and I don't seek to be one.  For me, martial arts is a hobby, not a lifestyle. 

Going back to the original post:


> On another thread, the point was made that a lot of FMAs being taught  today --especially here in the States-- lack the realism that  characterized the stuff taught by the older generations of masters.  Think of some of the legendary names in the FMAs: Dizon, Cabales,  Villabrille, Ilustrisimo, Giron, Bacon, the Tortal family, the Latosa  family, to name but a few... these guys used their arts for _fighting_.  Some used them for _killing_... especially the Filipino freedom  fighters resisting the Japanese during WWII. So the FMA systems that  were exposed to the US public in the '70s and '80's were still lead by  individuals who had seen those arts _used and tested._
> 
> Now the old generation of masters has almost entirely passed. FMAs are  being widely taught by people who have never used them in anything like  an actual life-or-death struggle. We see more and more fancy, flowery  techniques being taught, and we no-longer _test_ what we learn.  Meanwhile, the public turns increasingly to MMA, which, though a _sport_  and not the same as a life-or-death struggle, at least is constantly  being pressure-tested in the ring. So where does that leave the FMAs in  the modern world. Are we going to end up as another, non-functional,  ritualized art form and philosophical discipline like some Japanese  Budo? Worse, are we going to become another flashy, phony martial  dance-form taught to kids at the corner McDojo? Or is there a way to  keep the original fighting spirit and realism of the FMAs alive in the  modern, civilized world?



I think I addressed the first part. I'll try and hit the second now.

There is no need to constantly retest things. The techniques that are passed on are the successful ones. The guys doing the stuff that didn't work died trying it.  That said, there is a danger that things will water down, that the edge as it were, will blunt.  All arts go through this over time as the reasons for their existence vanish.  Some people however will continue to train in the old ways with the old mindset.  It is the job of the serious student to find those people and learn from them.

I'll use Tai Chi as an example. Most people only know it as a form of fancy stretching done by old people at senior homes. At least 1 international organization in fact teaches that as the -only way-. But after much digging, I've found groups who still teach Tai Chi as a real martial art with the original mind behind it, and it's pretty brutal stuff, when done in a martial manner.  

The true McDojo teaches real crap for cash. I don't equate commercial with mcdojo automatically, that's another failure in the minds of those who seek the fantasy of the 'real deal'. But even a crap mcdojo serves a purpose here, as a gateway.  For some people, the mcdojo is all they have to fill that desire to train in the arts. Many people leave after they get their taste, but others attend camps and seminars and get in deeper. They'll move schools and look for the deeper answers, and higher levels of training. As they learn more, they want more, and they hunger for the "true" knowledge.  And they become people like many of us, not content for playing patty cake and taptap 45 minutes a week, but who hunger for the skills and knowledge that the arts original innovators had.

The student, evolves. So must the arts.


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## Archangel M

So it's more like a "Starbukdojo"??


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## Bob Hubbard

Yeah, you go to $tarbucks for the party, you go to the place down the street for really good beanbrew.


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## Archangel M

I can sort of see the middle-ground here. It's the eternal conflict between "combativeness" and "commercial success". Look at TaeKwonDo. In the US it is a commercial powerhouse but look at what that success has done for it's reputation (deserved or not) as a fighting art. I can understand how some practitioners don't want to see that for their art, but I can also understand needing to "keep bread on the table" for the school owner. It's a clash of worldviews and thus I doubt there will ever be a meeting of the minds on the issue.


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## MJS

Sigh...its good to see the political BS is thriving in the FMA world. 

Seriously folks, lets get back to some normal, civil discussion, eh?  Anywho....I look at it like this...the BS isn't limited to FMAs...its in TKD, Kenpo, the X-Kans, everywhere!  Are there people out there that're not representing the art like it should be?  Of course.  But the FMA world, hell the martial art world in general is waaayyyyy too big to police.  That being said, why worry about it?  I mean, yeah, the jokers out there, the ones that suck, the ones that are rank whores, yeah, they give the bad image, and sadly, the uneducated people in the world will assume that ALL FMAs are like that, but fortunately, there're some damn good groups out there that do teach and spread quality stuff.  

I know what I do, I know who I train with, and thats all that matters to me.  I'll never associate with those other people so I'm not worried.


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## Blindside

Bob Hubbard said:


> I'll agree with most of this. Yes you could. But some won't. Some don't seek mastery, but diversion. As I said, most people don't have time to spend training to be a warrior, master of the martial arts, highly trained killing machine. Most people don't want their kids training for warfare either. This is why you really never see any school advertising with stuff like "Bring us your kids and in 4 weeks they'll be able to cut throats, break bones, and disembowel their enemies like the warriors of Lapu Lapu.". Personally, I'd love to see the ad slick on that, little Tommy standing over the body of his enemy, raising the bloody knife to his lips to savor the sweet nectar. But I suspect some parents would complain and it'd get pulled.


 
I'm fine with people not wanting to be a "warrior," but if they are going to train with me, I'm going to be focusing on high percentage workable material, stuff that might actually save their life should they run into a bad situation. Just because something is a hobby for someone doesn't mean the material has to be taught for entertainment value. Most of the guys training in MMA classes are never going to be professional fighters, but their material is going to be the same effective, high percentage stuff that the fighters learn. 

I am not a "warrior" I don't go into combat. My teacher is one of those guys whose job it is to run toward the sound of gunfire, as a student I've trained with several others of those guys, and now from time to time I have the opportunity to be the trainer of those guys. The material I show my civilian students is the same stuff. I see no point in "fluffing" the material for the sake of commercialism. 



> You call it a McDojo, because it caters to it's customers. I call it a commercial business that must satisfy it's customers. Not everyone has an inheritance or government check to live off while they "teach for free". The days of living poor and training warriors while the village takes care of you is over, in much of the world.


 
Commercially my little club is an abject failure, complete and utter, and I couldn't be happier. I see no reason why the war arts should be changed and softened so some instructor can make a living off of it. This isn't just FMA, this goes for many arts. 



> But, I'm not a warrior, and I don't seek to be one. For me, martial arts is a hobby, not a lifestyle.


 
Me too, a challenging, highly effective, high-percentage focused hobby.



> There is no need to constantly retest things. The techniques that are passed on are the successful ones. The guys doing the stuff that didn't work died trying it.


 
It is the job of every student and particularly every instructor to constantly retest. If something doesn't work they better figure out why. 
Are they doing it at the wrong range? They aren't reading the attack early enough? Or is the technique so low percentage that it requires the somewhat active cooperation of the attacker to complete correctly? Several of the poor examples of FMA show such half-hearted attacks that somehow slashes stop when contacted with a simple wall block. Why? How? My three year old doesn't throw slashes that would stop with a simple wall block.  Test, test, test and use some common sense. 

Combative weapon arts are usually fairly simple. Lots and lots of practice at basic striking, lots and lots of practice at footwork, lots and lots of practice at getting the hell out of the way, and as you get better, lots and lots of practice of getting the hell out of the way AND strking the other guy. Many practitioners skimp on the important part to get to the cool locks and disarms. Bad form on the part of the instructors, bad results for the students.


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## Rich Parsons

Arnis7Tres5 said:


> ...
> As my uncle and instructor in Balintawak loves to remind me, Lihok! (Move!) and my new instructors now, "It's not called Pekiti-Stand Still". There's no room for mediocrity. No Room.


 
Who is your Uncle and with whom did he train with? Just curious as I like to know and learn about all the branches of the Balintawak Family.


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## Archangel M

I don't think he can post anymore.


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## Blindside

Rich Parsons said:


> Who is your Uncle and with whom did he train with? Just curious as I like to know and learn about all the branches of the Balintawak Family.


 
I don't think he can reply to you right now. He appears to be temporarily suspended/under review.


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## Bob Hubbard

The 2 guys involved in the mudbath have been asked to produce proof of their claimed identities. Once we get that, we'll let them back in. If they don't produce, we'll permanently boot them.


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## Rich Parsons

Archangel M said:


> I don't think he can post anymore.


 


Blindside said:


> I don't think he can reply to you right now. He appears to be temporarily suspended/under review.


 


Bob Hubbard said:


> The 2 guys involved in the mudbath have been asked to produce proof of their claimed identities. Once we get that, we'll let them back in. If they don't produce, we'll permanently boot them.


 
Gentlemen,

Thank you, I did not read his title under his name to see Contact an admin before  I had hit quote and asked my question.

Hopefully all can be resolved and a peaceful discussion can continue. Non peaceful discussions should happen in person. 

Thanks


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## Bob Hubbard

Blindside said:


> I'm fine with people not wanting to be a "warrior," but if they are going to train with me, I'm going to be focusing on high percentage workable material, stuff that might actually save their life should they run into a bad situation. Just because something is a hobby for someone doesn't mean the material has to be taught for entertainment value. Most of the guys training in MMA classes are never going to be professional fighters, but their material is going to be the same effective, high percentage stuff that the fighters learn.



I'm not endorsing teaching ineffective material. But I think some misunderstand the design of some curriculum that have simplified things for younger students to use as a foundation towards the more complex 'whole'.  I've watched instructors whip out an endless array of variations on something as simple as a wrist grab, while students struggled to just capture the wrist. Put in a programming context, the traditional "Hello World" program's useless, but it's an introduction that you can build on.



> I am not a "warrior" I don't go into combat. My teacher is one of those guys whose job it is to run toward the sound of gunfire, as a student I've trained with several others of those guys, and now from time to time I have the opportunity to be the trainer of those guys. The material I show my civilian students is the same stuff. I see no point in "fluffing" the material for the sake of commercialism.



"Fluffing" to me is adding in the 'fancy' stuff, or combination's and combining with other systems material simply to add more stuff for higher belts to draw in more cash. Addon material that doesn't blend well, and bloats things out or just looks pretty without actually being of any use, like thumping your chest twice for pretty sound effects or insisting on a student making whoosh whoosh sounds as they move like they were that guy from the Police Academy movies. 



> Commercially my little club is an abject failure, complete and utter, and I couldn't be happier. I see no reason why the war arts should be changed and softened so some instructor can make a living off of it. This isn't just FMA, this goes for many arts.



There is softening, and there is softening.  I see a difference between insisting on safer training methods, avoiding injury and using controlled intensity and the watering down of things to the point of being useless like what has happened to Tai Chi.  Most of the FMA people I've encountered are still doing things in a serious manner. I mean, I haven't seen an FMA-TaeBo yet. Then again, I'm usually watching sci-fi clips on Youtube, not martial arts clips, so it might be there....lol



> It is the job of every student and particularly every instructor to constantly retest. If something doesn't work they better figure out why.
> Are they doing it at the wrong range? They aren't reading the attack early enough? Or is the technique so low percentage that it requires the somewhat active cooperation of the attacker to complete correctly? Several of the poor examples of FMA show such half-hearted attacks that somehow slashes stop when contacted with a simple wall block. Why? How? My three year old doesn't throw slashes that would stop with a simple wall block.  Test, test, test and use some common sense.



But, how seriously should you retest?  After all, the best way to practice lethal techniques is to go out, fight and kill someone. Or break some bones, and knock folks out. But, that whole "we have laws and lawyers" thing gets in the way.  Sparring only goes so far. Cutting up a rolled up mat only goes so far.  If you're dealing with life-or-death situations, only dealing with them will give you experience.  You can shoot all the guns you want, play all the laser tag, paintball, and airsoft you want.  You won't know how you react being under real fire until that first round whizes past your head and you discover how damp your pants get.  Same thing in a fight. I can train all I want, spar all comers, but I -know- they aren't trying to kill me or break me apart.  That alone is enough to me, to negate the 'intensity' and the 'test'.



> Combative weapon arts are usually fairly simple. Lots and lots of practice at basic striking, lots and lots of practice at footwork, lots and lots of practice at getting the hell out of the way, and as you get better, lots and lots of practice of getting the hell out of the way AND strking the other guy. Many practitioners skimp on the important part to get to the cool locks and disarms. Bad form on the part of the instructors, bad results for the students.



I can't say I disagree. I've seen systems that are pretty basic, and pretty brutal. No fancy moves, no fancy dancing. Just get in, take your opponent out, and go home. Then I've seen systems that add a little flair here, a little spin there, a little whoosh on the left, and insist on you making choochoo train sounds as you move, from instructors who have to say "poppoppoppop" as they throw air punches and slap themselves silly for sound effects.  Entertains the kids, keeps them focused, but seems so Jackie Chanish in effect to me.


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## Blindside

Bob Hubbard said:


> But, how seriously should you retest? After all, the best way to practice lethal techniques is to go out, fight and kill someone. Or break some bones, and knock folks out. But, that whole "we have laws and lawyers" thing gets in the way. Sparring only goes so far. Cutting up a rolled up mat only goes so far. If you're dealing with life-or-death situations, only dealing with them will give you experience. You can shoot all the guns you want, play all the laser tag, paintball, and airsoft you want. You won't know how you react being under real fire until that first round whizes past your head and you discover how damp your pants get. Same thing in a fight. I can train all I want, spar all comers, but I -know- they aren't trying to kill me or break me apart. That alone is enough to me, to negate the 'intensity' and the 'test'.


 
Well sure, but look at the logic of what you are suggesting, that because we don't test something in live combat we can't really test it?  If I can't pull off something in hard sparring, how the hell am I going to do it for real?  I have a decent sidekick, it is undoubtedly one of my "go to" moves, and I know it works because I have dropped people in hard sparring and in a couple of instances broken ribs.  

Unarmed or armed I start students with light contact and move up.  With sticks it starts out with light padded weapons, then heavy padded sticks that can cause a TKO if you land it with enough power (done it, been done to me), then to light sticks, then to heavy sticks.  At some point I'd love to participate in a Dog Brothers match to test myself against strangers and my own fears.   

Not every student is going to do this, but the ones that will are going to be better prepared.  Force on force training through law enforcement and military studies show that it prepares them better for combat than just punching holes on the range.  Training isn't real and it won't ever be, but that doesn't mean that you won't get an adrenal dump and figure out how to manage it.  For sparring it means that when I'm tired and hurting and maybe not really feeling my best because some dude just beaned me with a power #1, that I still have to function and still have to go.  If you feel a lack of intensity in those situations, well, I don't know what to tell you.


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## Bob Hubbard

Good points.  I can't say how others manage it all. I'm not too keen on taking the hard lumps, for a number of reasons, so can't go full tilt like I might want to.  For me, it's going as hard as I'm comfortable going, and understanding that it'll never be 100% in practice.

Of course, there is the possibly comedic step of going too far, and paying ones houseboy to randomly attack you.


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## Cruentus

Well, some unknown person emailed me and asked me to respond. I have a natural distrust with internet communication unless I know for sure who I am communicating with, so I can&#8217;t help but think that this was a bait of some sort. But, **** it. I&#8217;ll chime in. Why not?

I don&#8217;t think I am going to receive much agreement or understanding on my opinion, but that is OK. I am just hoping a different perspective will be valuable to some. 

The topic asks the question of is FMA is &#8220;devolving,&#8221; and basically asks if FMA is loosing realism. I feel that the subject matter is tainted with erroneous assumptions from the very beginning.

First, to believe in devolution, we have to assume that FMAers of the past were better then those of today. I think that this is a narrow belief, and without looking into it with more depth points to the logical fallacy of &#8216;appeal to antiquity&#8217; so common in the martial arts of today. Teachers of the past did not have super human, unattainable powers. They simply may have had a different life circumstance that set the conditions for them to be very good at their discipline. For example, if stick dueling was a popular practice in the 1950s and 60s then it would stand to reason that instructors got good at that out of necessity. That doesn&#8217;t make these people were more capable then anyone else today; what their circumstance did do was it gave a _catalyst of realism_, where little room was left for wild stipulations and hypothetical&#8217;s when going into a fight, as a mistake in training could result in getting hit with a stick and injured. Yet, even with that catalyst of realism, were there still a lot of practices of flowery, non-practical techniques? You bet&#8217;cha. Why? Because there are many socio-psychological dynamics that play into what people trained, even back then. I wish this weren&#8217;t true sometimes, but MARTIAL ARTS HAS NEVER BEEN ONLY ABOUT WHAT IS PRACTICAL. To get into these socio-psychological factors would require a novel, and my post is long enough. So, I would conclude that masters of the past aren&#8217;t necessarily &#8220;better&#8221; then those of today. Instructors today vary in their focus on realism about as much as they did back then. The main difference is that back then only a small % of everyone trained, where as today in the global economy the amount of people dabbling in FMA is much greater. But if we look at the &#8220;best&#8221; that we got today vs. back then, the variance will have more to do with individual differences and whom we are comparing. That is assuming that we can compare those from the past to now, which is impossible because of the legendary status that people receive after death.

*To summarize*: We have no basis or actual evidence to assume that as a whole, stuff was better in the past then it is today. Therefore, no evidence of devolution. All we know is that the dynamics and catalyst of realism are different, though not inferior or superior. So, the fight I might encounter in 2010 is different then the fight I might encounter in 1950. That makes things different, but not better or worse. 

*Point number two: All martial arts, regardless of type, are fantasy.* Stick with me on this one before you jump through your computer, freak out and immediately tell yourself how different your style is from everyone else&#8217;s, or run to the shower crying for the next hour and repeating some sort of mantra as to how tough you and your art really is. I will repeat: All martial arts, regardless of type, are fantasy.

Let me explain. The only &#8220;traditional&#8221; art I train (the other stuff I train is more reality based, or more modern and eclectic) is Balintawak Eskrima. I love it. However, the system is primarily a stick dueling system. So, as it applies to real fighting, for me to use Balintawak directly in a fight, I would have to be in a situation where I have an eskrima stick, he has an eskrima stick, and we pummel each other until one of us is no longer moving. In all likelihood, this will never happen. There is no modern day self-defense scenario or battlefield scenario that will involve me dueling with another person with a stick. Therefore, the direct skill I am getting from Balintawak applies only to a fantasy scenario.

The eskrima example is an easy one to follow, but the example holds true in your empty hand systems as well. Take BJJ for example. I love BJJ; it is a great art. There is no modern day self-defense scenario where I am going to roll with someone for as long as it takes, be it 5-30 minutes, with no interruption, until someone submits. To assume that scenario is to believe that fantasy is real.

And there in lies the problem. Many people who train, from the lowest level to the most prominent master, cannot separate fantasy from reality when it comes to this stuff. So then we end up with discussions on whether or not so and so&#8217;s trapping sequence is &#8220;real&#8221; enough. If we can except that none of it is &#8220;real,&#8221; then we will be far better off. But, that will never happen on a large scale. I wish I could say that people&#8217;s inability to separate real from fantasy was solely based in lack of experience or exposure to violent encounters, but that is not the case because you don&#8217;t need to be in a lot of violent scenarios to address what is fantasy and what isn&#8217;t; you can look at statistics and talk to those who have been in violent encounters to get the picture. Yet, martial artists generally don&#8217;t do that, and there are a whole lot of reasons for that going beyond this post as well. But to put it simply, it is a natural defense mechanism to want to feel in control of what could happen if you were in danger, and therefore putting up a fantastical scenario where you or your art gets to be the winner placates to that psychological need.
In a nutshell, this is why dissecting someone&#8217;s trapping sequence from a video clip and trying to determine if it is &#8220;real&#8221; or not is silly. None of it is real. That would be like me arguing that smurfs are far more realistic then fragile&#8217;s, and let me list all the reasons why. Sheesh.
Final point then: Why do we train anything if none of it is &#8220;real&#8221;?

One answer: attributes

Let&#8217;s pretend for a second that I have been on a few combat tours in the mid-east and that I did a lot of dismounted patrols in very small teams looking for High Value Targets and Targets of Opportunity. Part of my training for this job involves 5 mile timed runs, sprints, heavy lifting, crossfit style circuits, etc. I will tell you that I have never done a 5 mile run to get to a bad guy, or a heavy dead lift while on a patrol. So, why did I do those things to train for my mission? Those activities may not have been of direct help, but the physical conditioning became a huge asset when I needed it. 

We train martial arts for many different reasons that have nothing to do with fighting: fitness, mental well being, social interaction, self-esteem, etc. But as it applies to fighting, by training martial arts we develop attributes that should give us an advantage in a real fight. So, though you will likely never grapple someone into submission for 30 minutes in a fight, the attributes and grappling and body positioning skills of BJJ can be extremely advantageous, making BJJ a practical art. Pretending for a second that I have been in my fair share of real life encounters, its safe to say that I have never used Balintawak Eskrima directly. But the attributes of discipline, timing, distance management, kinesthetic awareness, and so on have all been invaluable to me.

So the question we should be asking here isn&#8217;t &#8220;will that trapping sequence or drill work in a fight?&#8221; as this question is plagued with erroneous assumptions to begin with. The question should be &#8220;what attributes or skills does that drill train?&#8221; Or, &#8220;What is the objective and value of that exercise, and can its objectives be accomplished better with something else?&#8221; These questions, to me, seem more logical.

Before I end the post, I have a final recommendation. You may train great martial arts, developing attributes and skill sets that indirectly apply to real fighting. But, great martial artists fail in fights all the time because they have never rehearsed for the likely self-defense circumstance that they will be in, and those attributes never connect or come out when the real scenario occurs. So I suggest that all training should be augmented with non art specific, scenario-based training rehearsals. I have heard some reference to &#8220;pressure testing&#8221; and so forth already, which is good. But that doesn&#8217;t mean just wrestling around with your buddy and trying that wristlock, or putting your buddy in a wristlock and then saying, &#8220;er&#8230;now try to get out of it!&#8221; It means setting up the environmental/tactical scenario where you are _rehearsing _possible self-defense situations with the use of modern day equipment (padded suits for example) so that you can train as live and full force as possible within the limitations of safety considerations. The difference between martial arts practice and a scenario based rehearsal is that in a rehearsal you are setting up the likely conditions you will be in if you have to fight in real life, you know for your consideration the limitations of your training environment ahead of time, and you are able to train, adjust and maximize your probability for success if that real encounter should occur.

That is my take on the topic. I hope some of you find something of value in my lengthy post.

Thanks,
Cruentus


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## Cruentus

Also as a side note: On internet video postings...

1. Someone mentioned that people need to watch what they post on the internet and youtube for all to see. I couldn't agree more. Taken out of context, some of the stuff presented to the public in a few minute clip can look pretty bad, even if there was nothing wrong with it in the context of the entire instruction.

That said, some people are just critics, and that is all they are. They will armchair and pick apart what they see on video, when they themselves do nothing better. Well, these critics generally don't have lives, and will spend their time slamming and criticizing what they see because that is what makes them feel important or valuable. It's a shame really. What a waste.

2. Some things were mentioned about people "going after" Datu Hartman, and the implied notion was that this thread or at least some of the posts here were veiled attempts to take shots at him. Is that still going on? Man, I hope not. Read my paragraph above... that applies here.

That said, there was nothing wrong with Datu Hartman's video clip. I am not even going to defend the binding techniques and sequence presented as there is no need; no one thinks that a fight goes like that, and these are sequences designed to work on skill sets and attributes as I explained in my previous post. I will say that those who are hyper critical of the clip are also being critical of the late GM Remy Presas. This is because those techniques are taken straight out of the stuff that he was teaching, particularly in the last years of his seminar career. If anything Datu Hartman's explaination of these techniques is actually better then Prof. Presas' for the simple fact that Hartman has no language barrier. So in my opinion, criticizing Hartman's presentation there is identical to criticizing the entire art and it's founder; and I think there woould be far less support in the idea that Modern Arnis or Professor Presas didn't have practical ideas and skills for fighting.

Cruentus


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## geezer

Cruentus said:


> Also as a side note: On internet video postings... *some people are just critics*, and that is all they are... So in my opinion, criticizing Hartman's presentation there is identical to criticizing the entire art and it's founder; and I think there woould be far less support in the idea that Modern Arnis or Professor Presas didn't have practical ideas and skills for fighting.
> 
> Cruentus



Yep. Some people just have _attitude_. In addition to FMA, I've been involved in WC for a long time. Man, want to talk about attitude problems? Compared to WC factionalism, FMA is almost a love-fest. And we still have these problems. I don't even think comparing what Datu Hartman teaches to the late GM Remy Presas will silence those guys. Give a guy an armchair and a keyboard and look what happens, LOL. 

And, even if you discount the armchair "internet warriors", there are highly skilled GMs who go around bad-mouthing the competition. But at least they are _qualified_ to comment (even if they aren't _justified_). As for myself... I'm glad to hear a healthy debate, especially when I can get a response from really well informed people. Unfortunately, that also opens the door to a lot of low-level mud-slinging. That's why we have moderators, I guess.

Now regarding the earlier comment by "Cruentus" about the fact that _stick dueling is a fantasy_. Well, my teachers concur. So, let's start carrying around _two_ padded sticks and a pair of fencing helmets. Also, let's donate sets to all the rougher bars in our neighborhoods. Then, next time you get riled up, _Carpei Basculum!_ you can _invite your opponent to grab his stick_, go outside and "settle it like a man"... On the other hand, that might lead to all kinds of misunderstandings. Nevermind!


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