# Internal in external fighting systems



## vic (Oct 25, 2022)

Principles of internal arts include being relaxed and moving with the whole body. Isn't that how a proper muay thai roundhouse is taught in this video? High level boxers like Ali and Mike Tyson stay relaxed and use their whole body to power their punches. Though their training is different compared to taiji, xingyiquan or baguazhang, in a way they are using internal principles?


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## isshinryuronin (Oct 25, 2022)

vic said:


> Principles of internal arts include being relaxed and moving with the whole body.


This is also the principle of the external arts.  IMO, while technique execution of the internal and external arts is manifested differently, at the core they are basically the same.  I think the more advanced one progresses this fact becomes more evident.


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 25, 2022)

vic said:


> Principles of internal arts include being relaxed and moving with the whole body. Isn't that how a proper muay thai roundhouse is taught in this video? High level boxers like Ali and Mike Tyson stay relaxed and use their whole body to power their punches. Though their training is different compared to taiji, xingyiquan or baguazhang, in a way they are using internal principles?


That's a great video, but from a CMA perspective it's very external type of attack.

Think about it this way.  What's your range, 3 feet, or 3 inches?  If you've got that much range, go for it.  IF not, you kick in the internal skill (nei gong).  And yes, nei gong is all about the core power of the body, which drives everything.  Especially the knees.

Inside boxers, the swarmers, in Tyson's case, are perfect specimens.  It's hard to think of a Muay Thai example off hand, but they're out there too.

I'm kind of a Paco Muay Thai guy.


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## Jared Traveler (Oct 25, 2022)

I'm not qualified to speak about the internal principles of taiji, xingyiquan or baguazhang. However I understand aspects like Kuzushi in soft arts like Judo pretty well, I also understand a decent amount about Muay Thai body kicks, as I have thrown thousands and thousands of them at this point.

I wouldn't describe it as relaxed. Certainly you want the body to generate power through a lot of swinging movement, but doing the body kick properly takes a lot of muscle control, and precision focus on many technical aspects.

If you do it enough, your body can begin to do them effortlessly, but getting their comes from extreme focus to detail, balance, positioning, follow through and many other points. To include moving your body in multiple different directions at the same time.

Perhaps I'm missing the core of what you are trying to communicate about relaxed focus?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 25, 2022)

There is only the right way and the wrong way. There is no internal way and external way.

For striking art, the right way is to use your full body unification force. The wrong way is to use your partial body force (such as the arm force only).

For throwing art, the right way is to borrow force. The wrong way is to use force against force.


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## isshinryuronin (Oct 26, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> There is only the right way and the wrong way. There is no internal way and external way.
> 
> For striking art, the right way is to use your full body unification force. The wrong way is to use your partial body force (such as the arm force only).
> 
> For throwing art, the right way is to borrow force. The wrong way is to use force against force.


I tend to generally agree, but I think these two ways are not mutually exclusive.  In striking, soft force-borrowing techniques can be used to set-up and position one for the hard hit.  Conversely, in throwing, a hard hit or two can facilitate the throw.


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## Holmejr (Oct 26, 2022)

Define “internal”. Relaxation and proper breathing is a trait of any high level athlete in any sport. There usually isn’t anything purposely internal about it. Just excellent training.


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 26, 2022)

isshinryuronin said:


> I tend to generally agree, but I think these two ways are not mutually exclusive.  In striking, soft force-borrowing techniques can be used to set-up and position one for the hard hit.  Conversely, in throwing, a hard hit or two can facilitate the throw.


From a technical POV, yes.

From a historical POV, it depends.


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 26, 2022)

Holmejr said:


> Define “internal”. Relaxation and proper breathing is a trait of any high level athlete in any sport. There usually isn’t anything purposely internal about it. Just excellent training.


Internal means Chinese nei jia, as well as all the "external" schools that also teach Nei Gong, such as Shaolin Si.  And everything derived from it.  

One big flaw you see online is the duality of Shaolin Buddhism vs Daoist nei jia.  Like they are chocolate and peanut butter.  Two different nuts.

The truth is Shaolin Si is a Reese's Peanut Butter Cup, loaded with internal and external training methods,  Daoist, Buddhist.


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## Diaitadoc (Oct 26, 2022)

A quote from one of my teachers that really stood out to me was “whether you cook an egg from the inside out or the outside in, you still end up with a cooked egg either way”. So at the end of the line, internal & external training systems arrive at the same place.

My interpretation of the internal/external debate changes over time, but the way I see it now is that “external” arts train specific skills & qualities in ways OTHER than live &/or simulated ways; for example, they may use weights, or exercises that are not directly representative of technique (such as push-ups or sit-ups) in order to develop certain attributes; the exercises are EXTERNAL/DETACHED from direct application & functionality.

”Internal” arts train their skills & qualities strictly through live &/or simulated training; through drilling, repetition, & partnerwork. The attributes they develop are INTERNAL/ATTACHED to direct application & functionality.

I know, I know, this definition completely ignores “Qi” as it is generally interpreted, & these days most “external” styles do MORE live / simulated work than the “internal” ones (generally) do!

…and that’s part of the point - the “internal/external” division is not clear cut, it’s fuzzy at best, useless at worst!

If, however, we readjust our view to say that certain training METHODS are external, such as push-ups, bag drills, etc., and certain training METHODS are internal, such as partner drills, shadow boxing, forms, etc., then we can examine a specific school’s curriculum & determine whether or not that school is “more external”, “more internal” or “equally internal & external”.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 26, 2022)

Everytime I use the term "internal", I always put it into "" because I don't believe it real exists.

Some people may think if one moves slow, he is doing "internal". If one moves fast, he is doing external. The Taiji "diagnoal flay" and Chinese wrestling "advance squeeze" function exactly the same.

Taiji "diagnoal fly":






Chinese wrestling "advance squeeze":


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## isshinryuronin (Oct 26, 2022)

Diaitadoc said:


> ”Internal” arts train their skills & qualities strictly through live &/or simulated training; through drilling, repetition, & partnerwork. The attributes they develop are INTERNAL/ATTACHED to direct application & functionality.





Diaitadoc said:


> My interpretation of the internal/external debate changes over time, but the way I see it now is that “external” arts train specific skills & qualities in ways OTHER than live &/or simulated ways; for example, they may use weights, or exercises that are not directly representative of technique (such as push-ups or sit-ups) in order to develop certain attributes; the exercises are EXTERNAL/DETACHED from direct application & functionality.
> 
> ”Internal” arts train their skills & qualities strictly through live &/or simulated training; through drilling, repetition, & partnerwork. The attributes they develop are INTERNAL/ATTACHED to direct application & functionality.


I'm not sure that the "internal" arts would/do dismiss calisthenics or weight training.  I am sure that traditional Okinawan "external" arts utilize these exercises (_hojo undo_) to "direct application & functionality" as you ascribe only to the internal arts.  I think it's just a matter of each type of art customizing all these training methods to facilitate their own system's manner of technique execution.

Regarding most internal vs external issues, I think both are basically the same, only their manner or appearance of expression being different.  As in your opening anecdote, the egg ends up cooked whether from the inside or out.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 26, 2022)

I have asked the following questions in many MA forums in the past 30 years. Today, I still have not received any answer.

What's the difference between

- "internal" punch to the face and external punch to the face?
- "internal" front kick and external front kick?
- "internal" foot sweep and external foot sweep?
- "internal" elbow lock and external elbow lock?
- "internal" hip throw and external hip throw?
- "internal" single leg and external single leg?
- ...

Is this "internal" punch, or external punch?


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 26, 2022)

This guy is really to blame.  Daoist martial scholar doing Daoist things.









						Sun Lutang - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 27, 2022)

Over 300 years ago, a non-MA scholar Huang Zongxi *黄宗羲(*9/24/1610－8/12/1695) invented the term "internal". For the next 300 years, people tried to argue what it is.









						Huang Zongxi - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 27, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Over 300 years ago, a non-MA scholar Huang Zongxi *黄宗羲(*9/24/1610－8/12/1695) invented the term "internal". For the next 300 years, people tried to argue what it is.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yup, The epitaph to Wang Zhengnan

The Origin of Internal Martial Arts​Ignorance, Legend and Taijiquan​


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 27, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> Yup, The epitaph to Wang Zhengnan
> 
> The Origin of Internal Martial Arts​Ignorance, Legend and Taijiquan​


I know the word "internal" was first found on a tomb stone. I don't have Adam Hsu's book with me. My memory could be wrong. Was Huang Zongxi *黄宗羲 or Wang Zhengnan?*


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## O'Malley (Oct 27, 2022)

As mentioned above, lack of excess tension and the use of body mass are staples of athletic activity and are not specific to internal martial arts. Therefore it's normal to find them also in muay thai.

However some of the responses in this thread suggest that the difference between internal and external is fuzzy at best. In my experience though, it is both conceptually clear and physically perceptible (when touching someone who knows what he's doing).

Internal work is a specific and demanding type of physical conditioning which aims to remove the slack from the body. You change the way your body works, which in turn produces unusual effects when people touch you. You do this through different visualizations which help you use your intent to create elastic tension in yourself. This has nothing to do with using the force of the opponent: it happens inside you, hence the term "internal". Go see Dan Harden, Sam Chin, Minoru Akuzawa, Mike Sigman, etc. They can demonstrate and explain this stuff.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 27, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I know the word "internal" was first found on a tomb stone. I don't have Adam Hsu's book with me. My memory could be wrong. Was Huang Zongxi *黄宗羲 or Wang Zhengnan?*



Could be the same, just one is in Pinyin and the other in Wade-Giles

It is also possible that it was more of a political statement against the Qing... Qing outsiders, exernal, Han insiders internal.


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 27, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Over 300 years ago, a non-MA scholar Huang Zongxi *黄宗羲(*9/24/1610－8/12/1695) invented the term "internal". For the next 300 years, people tried to argue what it is.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Dude was a professional soldier if I'm not mistaken, in his youth.  War hero, even.

Like a lot of Daoist, Neo Confucian influenced warriors, I think that early fighting period really influenced his later work.

Another piece of the puzzle.


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 27, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I know the word "internal" was first found on a tomb stone. I don't have Adam Hsu's book with me. My memory could be wrong. Was Huang Zongxi *黄宗羲 or Wang Zhengnan?*


The hanzi itself is ancient, maybe even Oracle bone ancient, but yeah modern usage in the CMA sense kind of starts in the Ming/Ching transition period, like practically all empty handed forms we know today.

If you read any of the classics you'll see it pop up here and there.  A lot of stuff we use in the modern era like Qi and Nei is borrowed from really old scripture and stuff describing early Chinese philosophy, which is a rabbit hole like few others.

Like, go and spend some time on what schools Huang Zongxi went to.  You can spend a whole afternoon on this stuff.


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## Nobody Important (Oct 28, 2022)

FWIW, I've never really believed in the whole "External" vs "Internal" labelling of fighting arts. To me, "Internal" is the mind and "External" the body. Training isn't fundamentally internal or external, it requires both mind and body to work together no matter the technique, concept or modality. Method is what you choose it to be based upon your preferences and is fluid enough to change at any given moment as influenced by both internal and external factors. There is more than one way to do most things, "Correctness" is subjective.


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## drop bear (Oct 28, 2022)

Not really.

So you do a method. That results in a conclusion.

Eg. Thai's train Thai and the results are functional relaxed kicking.

Internal arts train Internal. Does that result in functional relaxed kicking?

Trying to compare them due to a common idea is one of those weird bit of mental gymnastics people do that doesn't really work.


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 28, 2022)

Nobody Important said:


> FWIW, I've never really believed in the whole "External" vs "Internal" labelling of fighting arts. To me, "Internal" is the mind and "External" the body. Training isn't fundamentally internal or external, it requires both mind and body to work together no matter the technique, concept or modality. Method is what you choose it to be based upon your preferences and is fluid enough to change at any given moment as influenced by both internal and external factors. There is more than one way to do most things, "Correctness" is subjective.


Well it exists, but it's more or less historical distinction.  

So it's kind of like Santa Claus.  There's a real St Nick that is very different from the modern concept, but at the core it's a big fat dude with a beard bearing gifts.


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## mograph (Oct 29, 2022)

I'm reminded of the aphorism _"all models are wrong, but some are useful."_


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 29, 2022)

I've always seen internal vs external as a description of how power is driven.  One is neither better or worse than others.  External = muscle through power
Internal = power driven by movement 

These are the only 2 realities when fighting in regard to muscular movement.  I can either front kick through my opponent's guard or I can front kick under his punching arm.  The first goes against his movement the second flows with it.

This Is the same for my movement. I can strike against my movement, example punch only using my arms and out of sync with the rest of my body.  I can strike with my total body movement; example use my body movement to add power and speed to my strike.

You can still hit hard without using body movement; it just won't be your hardest nor your fastest.  For a lot of people,  punching with movement that is out of sync is the norm. If you aren't sure if this is you, then do the same technique slowly or record yourself and play the video slowly.  Either way will show you the truth.

I think too many Martial artist make it more complicated than it really is.  Others make it confusing by making it a magical thing.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 29, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> For a lot of people, punching with movement that is out of sync is the norm. If you aren't sure if this is you, then do the same technique slowly or record yourself and play the video slowly. Either way will show you the truth.


This is why some Taiji people think they have better body uniformation because they train in slow speed. Non "internal" MA people can use slow movement to check body unification too. 

The long fist system uses the following tool to achieve the same purpose. When you punch your right hand, your left hand will be pulled back no matter you may like it or not. The longerer that you train this, the better that your body unification will achieve.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 31, 2022)

Old saying in CMA, also heard my Yang Shifu say it too

Internal, external, both end up in the same place if trained correctly.

I have also heard Internal goes to external and external goes to internal, if trained properly


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 31, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> Old saying in CMA, also heard my Yang Shifu say it too
> 
> Internal, external, both end up in the same place if trained correctly.
> 
> I have also heard Internal goes to external and external goes to internal, if trained properly


Yeah and honestly a lot of CMA systems already combine both.  Shaolin, Wudang, and other.  In fact high level Shaolin training is entirely based on developing Neigong.  There are internal Qigong sets throughout, many of which are based on old Daoist Daoyin.  

So when I hear about how internal schools own "relaxation" I have to laugh out loud.  So silly.

When you look at lineages that are mostly Nei Jia based, even then their training has plenty of "external".  But those tend to be, IMHO, the people who call Shaolinquan "external".

I think they are missing the point you just made perfectly.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 31, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> So when I hear about how internal schools own "relaxation"


They only own it when there isn't any incoming punches and kicks. When the strikes come in they tense up a lot. Maybe that's why their footwork looks so bad.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 31, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> Old saying in CMA, also heard my Yang Shifu say it too
> 
> Internal, external, both end up in the same place if trained correctly.
> 
> I have also heard Internal goes to external and external goes to internal, if trained properly


My Sifu said we live in a world where the first force we feel is down. Sifu added to that to say it goes up to go down to go up again.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 31, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> They only own it when there isn't any incoming punches and kicks. When the strikes come in they tense up a lot. Maybe that's why their footwork looks so bad.


Most are collapsed instead of supple.


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## vic (Nov 1, 2022)

Another example of "internal" in mostly external Thai boxing. The form looks a lot like bagua with low stance, weight shifts and circles.


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 1, 2022)

vic said:


> Another example of "internal" in mostly external Thai boxing. The form looks a lot like bagua with low stance, weight shifts and circles.


There's probably a relationship between different Asian languages here. Fon jerng is Thai for Dance fight, but the word jerng also means to flood or overflow, and could be related to jeurng, a term associated with several Cantonese Chinese palm strike methods.

I often say this but the differences between Chinese and Thai arts are very slim.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 1, 2022)

vic said:


> Another example of "internal" in mostly external Thai boxing. The form looks a lot like bagua with low stance, weight shifts and circles.


The low stance signifies grappling techniques.  It may look like it's a lot of striking but 90% of it is probably something associated with wrestling..  For example, this technique is 97% similar to one that we do in Jow Ga Kung Fu.  The movement addresses someone trying to take you down at the waist. The only thing is that the movement doesn't work when in a high stance,  The stance has to be low enough in relation to your opponent, so that your opponent tries to force a take down at a bad height.  Having a good understanding of where your stance height needs to be in relationship to your opponent is key.





The foot lifting reminds me of hooking your opponent's foot and lifting his leg.  In parts of the video it looks like his foot is sweeping behind an imaginary foot and then lifting it.  This guy has some strong legs.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 2, 2022)

These clips show why "internal" MA is superior than external MA.


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 2, 2022)

I have to balance the Force now, just to wash my marrow.

The real internal:


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## windwalker099 (Nov 9, 2022)

Interesting

Those with a view point trying to prove it
ie : no distinction  🤔

With out understanding the basic premise of the terminology used by the culture originating it...

More so those for those who are native language speakers...One would think it would be more clear.

All CMA is internal having come from the "culture" that originated the terminology identifying distinctions in practices leading to outcomes of the practice.

Having trained in Beijing, Taiwan, among other places....
The distinctions are quite clear.

The argument if any tend to center around what one is able to do, or not....
aside from the demo's held up of those who have some skill in it..

In Beijing
We divided the practices into

Bone, tendon, skin. methods practices oriented towards strengthening those aspects to be used directly as "external"  practices.

yi, qi, shen. "intention, energy, spirit" methods practices oriented towards  strengthening those aspects to be used directly as "internal"

The methods used in some cases can look the same done for different reasons focused on different aspects.

Historically  distinction arose out of a couple of different considerations,,,,  One being to give clarity to the rationale for a group of practices, exhibiting the same type of methods and outcomes.

All CMA is internal

Some use the internal to augment the body, using the body directly
Some use the external to augment the internal, using the internal directly

very different methodology


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## _Simon_ (Nov 9, 2022)

Okay, I have been pondering this for... awhile now, and I'm wondering if someone can provide some clarity on it.

The oft-used quote that training in external/internal leads to the same place... I LOVE this idea... but I truly can't fathom how this manifests...

My background is in a very hard, external style, for which I spent close to a decade training in. It did not lead me anywhere close to an internal sense, but quite the opposite. Better at the external. My current style I am definitely exploring more internal components and it's only now (last few years actually) I am truly feeling this more.

Just wondering anyone's thoughts on how pursuing what's categorically seen as an "external" style can lead to the same place as an internal..


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## _Simon_ (Nov 9, 2022)

windwalker099 said:


> Interesting
> 
> Those with a view point trying to prove it
> ie : no distinction  🤔
> ...


YEAH this touches on my question actually.. cheers!


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 9, 2022)

_Simon_ said:


> My background is in a very hard, external style, for which I spent close to a decade training in. ...
> 
> Just wondering anyone's thoughts on how pursuing what's categorically seen as an "external" style can lead to the same place as an internal..


As long as it's not "force against force", it can be "internal". Does your hard external style has any

- throwing art in it? All throwing art utilize the internal principles such as borrow, yield, sink, sticky, follow, ...
- block/grab/pull? All block/grab/pull also utilize the internal principles such as jam, guide, tuck, ...


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## windwalker099 (Nov 9, 2022)

_Simon_ said:


> Just wondering anyone's thoughts on how pursuing what's categorically seen as an "external" style can lead to the same place as an internal..


Depends....on what the practice is based on....
What place does one want to go to 🤔


Most have seen this image



 Master Cheung demonstrating
the mighty Iron Palm.





						THE ION PALM MASTER
					

No Summary



					sifuofkungfu.tripod.com
				




Example of internal practices augmenting the body,,in what would be classed as an external practice..Iron Palm
If ones practice is not based on Chinese methods developing internal skill.
Chances are that this type of "external"  skill can not be realized.

Some of his history



> Ku Yu Cheung could not stand the arrogance of this man and his constant insults of the Chinese people, so he accepted the challenge.





> He took his position on the ground, and *focused his internal power (Chi).* The horse, ridden by Kalik, kicked out with its hind legs but missed. On the second kick, the hind legs struck their target, Ku Yu Cheung’s stomach.
> To the surprise of Kalik and the onlookers, there was no affect on Master Ku! Master Ku was not finished, and he proposed that since the horse had kicked him, it would be only fair to have the horse receive a blow from him in return.





> This was agreed upon, and as Kalik rode past *Master Ku, he struck the horse with his palm*.





> The horse immediately fell to the ground, dumping his rider, and died a short time later! Master Ku Yu Cheung had used the ‘Swallow’ principles to absorb the power of the horse’s kick. He had used the Iron Palm technique in hitting the horse, a technique that is known to only a few modern masters.





> Named a general in the nationalist military, Ku Yu Cheung fought the bloody struggle of the Sino-Japanese War and survived such atrocities as the rape of Nanjing to retire from military service to teach kung fu in the new capital Nanjing. He continued his study of the internal arts, such as Sun Style Tai Chi with Sun Lu Tang and died in what was believed to be his late fifties in 1952. So ends the final chapter of another of the truly great Grandmasters of the Chinese Martial Arts. Even today, Ku Yu Cheung is considered to be one of the greatest of all the Northern Shaolin Style practitioners.


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## O'Malley (Nov 10, 2022)

_Simon_ said:


> Okay, I have been pondering this for... awhile now, and I'm wondering if someone can provide some clarity on it.
> 
> The oft-used quote that training in external/internal leads to the same place... I LOVE this idea... but I truly can't fathom how this manifests...
> 
> ...


Trying to pull off a Kenji Yamaki, huh?  Matsuoka and Yamaki: The Power of Cross-Training – Aikido Journal

Although we have different backgrounds, my hunch is similar to yours. Aikido was originally an internal art (the daito ryu curriculum is actually divided into jujutsu, internals and jujutsu-with-internals) and the techniques were specifically selected to be a vehicle for the type of spiraling movement found in Asian internal arts (like taijiquan, baguazhang, bajiquan, xingyiquan, yiquan/taikiken and a bunch of koryu). We even have exercises designed to isolate or reproduce internal skills in a more understandable way and these are supposed to be the core of our practice. However, the overwhelming majority of aikidoka I've touched (a couple of them were very highly ranked) used regular muscle strength. They might be efficient and powerful but, even after decades, they just have strong jujutsu and they don't feel much different from other people I've touched who do kickboxing, muay thai, MMA, taekwondo, etc.

Among the people I've met or that I know of, inside and outside of aikido, the only ones who have demonstrated the type of unusual heaviness and soft strength which is associated with internal arts had done specific training. In other words, I know of no person in history who had internal skills and hadn't spent hours working on intent and body connection (e.g. by doing zhan zhuang / ritsu zen, and knowing what he's doing).

I think the phrase "training in external/internal leads to the same place" was either misinterpreted or coined by someone who had no idea about internal arts. Perhaps someone from internal arts who had no clue and was trying to reassure his students that, even though they suck now, they'll eventually fight like the "external" guys. Or, more likely, an external guy who watched/touched internal practitioners and found that they had nothing special.


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## _Simon_ (Nov 11, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> As long as it's not "force against force", it can be "internal". Does your hard external style has any
> 
> - throwing art in it? All throwing art utilize the internal principles such as borrow, yield, sink, sticky, follow, ...
> - block/grab/pull? All block/grab/pull also utilize the internal principles such as jam, guide, tuck, ...


Hmm ah okay interesting... thanks KFW.

My old art had barely any of that. My current art has all of that


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## _Simon_ (Nov 11, 2022)

O'Malley said:


> Trying to pull off a Kenji Yamaki, huh?  Matsuoka and Yamaki: The Power of Cross-Training – Aikido Journal
> 
> Although we have different backgrounds, my hunch is similar to yours. Aikido was originally an internal art (the daito ryu curriculum is actually divided into jujutsu, internals and jujutsu-with-internals) and the techniques were specifically selected to be a vehicle for the type of spiraling movement found in Asian internal arts (like taijiquan, baguazhang, bajiquan, xingyiquan, yiquan/taikiken and a bunch of koryu). We even have exercises designed to isolate or reproduce internal skills in a more understandable way and these are supposed to be the core of our practice. However, the overwhelming majority of aikidoka I've touched (a couple of them were very highly ranked) used regular muscle strength. They might be efficient and powerful but, even after decades, they just have strong jujutsu and they don't feel much different from other people I've touched who do kickboxing, muay thai, MMA, taekwondo, etc.
> 
> ...


First of all, AMAZING article, and I had no idea Kenji Yamaki Sensei changed his trajectory like that! His 100 man kumite is amazing haha.. but yeah honestly that mirrors my journey alot! From Kyokushin to training with karate infused with aiki principles and Goju Kensha. It's definitely where my journey has evolved..

Very well said; yeah I just can't understand how you can develop the internal aspects without devoting time to that specifically. Unless it's within the "higher levels" of external arts that you start to explore and tie in internal practices within the whole arc of your training up to now...


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## mograph (Nov 11, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> Old saying in CMA, also heard my Yang Shifu say it too
> 
> Internal, external, both end up in the same place if trained correctly.
> 
> I have also heard Internal goes to external and external goes to internal, if trained properly


My friend Ling likens this to two paths up the same mountain, both leading to the summit. 

One is a gentle slope early, then a steep slope later.
The other is steep slope early, then a gentle slope later.


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## O'Malley (Nov 11, 2022)

mograph said:


> My friend Ling likens this to two paths up the same mountain, both leading to the summit.
> 
> One is a gentle slope early, then a steep slope later.
> The other is steep slope early, then a gentle slope later.


I think either I'm missing something or we are discussing different things entirely. Could you (and others with similar views) please elaborate on this? What is the difference between the two and how, in your opinion, do they eventually rejoin?


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 11, 2022)

O'Malley said:


> I think either I'm missing something or we are discussing different things entirely. Could you (and others with similar views) please elaborate on this? What is the difference between the two and how, in your opinion, do they eventually rejoin?


They join at the end. For example if my goal is to punch your face, Then it ends at my fist.  If my goal is to throw you then they bother end at the throw.


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## mograph (Nov 11, 2022)

O'Malley said:


> I think either I'm missing something or we are discussing different things entirely. Could you (and others with similar views) please elaborate on this? What is the difference between the two and how, in your opinion, do they eventually rejoin?


Fair question.

Keeping in mind, my earlier post, "all models are wrong, but some are useful ..."

Assumptions of this model:

the _name_ of each path (internal vs. external), is derived from the _first_ slope the student encounters while climbing the mountain.
external "arts" follow a gentle slope first, then steep slope, but internal "arts" follow a steep slope first, then a gentle slope.
conceptually speaking, the internal segment is more difficult to grasp and practice to a point of utility. It's not better or worse, just less aligned with our daily experiences and expectations of a martial art. So the internal path is steep at first (hard to "get") then easier later on as the student applies the internal learnings to _external_ actions that are easier to grasp _conceptually_. (You do zhan zhuang before punching, for example.) While the external slope is _conceptually_ more gentle, these methods still take a lot of effort and sweat.
Conversely, the external segment (gentle slope) is easier to _understand_: we can _see_ it (usually), and success and failure is more apparent. However, to get to the top, the external student needs to learn internal methods later in the training (punch first, then do zhan zhuang). It's possible that external arts always included an internal segment, but students didn't get it (or it was boring, or hard to evaluate), so it dropped off many "external" curricula.
This model assumes that if a martial artist _sticks it out long enough to become a master_, they will pass through both internal and external _methods_, or segments, no matter the art, no matter the path up the mountain.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 11, 2022)

mograph said:


> My friend Ling likens this to two paths up the same mountain, both leading to the summit.
> 
> One is a gentle slope early, then a steep slope later.
> The other is steep slope early, then a gentle slope later.


I like that.


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 11, 2022)

mograph said:


> Fair question.
> 
> Keeping in mind, my earlier post, "all models are wrong, but some are useful ..."
> 
> ...


I read your entire post in Sir Bedevere the Wise's voice.


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 11, 2022)

O'Malley said:


> I think either I'm missing something or we are discussing different things entirely. Could you (and others with similar views) please elaborate on this? What is the difference between the two and how, in your opinion, do they eventually rejoin?


The best place to really understand the differences (which are incidental but interesting) is to train an art that contains both wei gong and nei gong traditions.  Basically, some of the big names in CMA history already looked into this and combined internal and external training methods into singular systems.

There are quite a few, whether or not you can find legit teachers is iffy but not impossible depending on where you are.

Off the top of my head, all five southern family styles, some related ones (Jow Ga, Choy Li Fut), Five Ancestor boxing (wuzu).  Even the modern forms of TCC and Xing Yi have at least Ming era Shaolin connections, making the distinction between the two schools even blurrier.  Most Shaolin Qigong are old Daoist exercises with Buddhist flavor that are today used as nei gong methods.  It's far from black and white.

The really old stuff (like Xing Yi's legendary connections to spear training) go all the way back to legendary folk generals like Yue Fei, similar to how Shaolin staff fighting methods go back to Song Dynasty years (~1000 AD).









						Yue Fei - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org


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## Wing Woo Gar (Nov 11, 2022)

Our style is exactly that mix. Doing each practice separately they each eventually combine to a third thing that is distinct, not visually, but experientially. The object being that the option to switch and combine different parts of the body in both soft and hard ways simultaneously.  I am not skilled at articulating this idea, so please forgive my primitive explanation.


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 12, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Our style is exactly that mix. Doing each practice separately they each eventually combine to a third thing that is distinct, not visually, but experientially. The object being that the option to switch and combine different parts of the body in both soft and hard ways simultaneously.  I am not skilled at articulating this idea, so please forgive my primitive explanation.


I think Shahar has a good chapter on the intermixing of wei and nei gong in and around the epicenters of various arts, including the Wudangquan, and how Buddhist monks would share with layman, layman would train with Neijia scholars, bring stuff back to Shaolin etc (which by that time has already been developing weapon forms for a thousand years). I'll dig up some quotes later if I have some time.

It's always nice to read the scholarly point of view after you've experienced both a decent amount.  For others at least it provides a sort of mental bowling bumper, harder to gutter the ball if you get me.

Right now I'm working on the internal aspects in the Five Animal Fist that I didn't learn the first go around (about 10 years ago), because I wasn't advanced enough, I learned it in a very external way.  But past learning the Iron Wire's nei gong method, now I can back and expand on the internal animal aspects of Ng Ying's Dragon, Snake, and Crane.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Nov 12, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> I think Shahar has a good chapter on the intermixing of wei and nei gong in and around the epicenters of various arts, including the Wudangquan, and how Buddhist monks would share with layman, layman would train with Neijia scholars, bring stuff back to Shaolin etc (which by that time has already been developing weapon forms for a thousand years). I'll dig up some quotes later if I have some time.
> 
> It's always nice to read the scholarly point of view after you've experienced both a decent amount.  For others at least it provides a sort of mental bowling bumper, harder to gutter the ball if you get me.
> 
> Right now I'm working on the internal aspects in the Five Animal Fist that I didn't learn the first go around (about 10 years ago), because I wasn't advanced enough, I learned it in a very external way.  But past learning the Iron Wire's nei gong method, now I can back and expand on the internal animal aspects of Ng Ying's Dragon, Snake, and Crane.


Great post. It took me 10 years to start to REALLY feel the supple listening touch. It took my gung fu practice to new heights once the soft clicked in. My teachers were expert in teaching me something without me knowing consciously what was being taught. I had to surrender to the process in order to let it happen. Over the years I have had some epiphany regarding things I didn’t realize I already knew. I found some things during hard training, others I found during spar or pressure testing. I hope this reads the way I intend. (The bottom moves the top, the back moves the front, the inside moves the outside).


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## windwalker099 (Nov 12, 2022)

For those mentioning the "internal"

What can you do "now" that you couldn't do before.

Can you still move in the same way, or use the same approach before
developing what some have mentioned as "internal"

What effect would others mention or say as to a distinction between it and other methods
that they felt from it being applied...

Asked out of curiosity, 🤔

In answer to my own questions, a lot of my work involves working with, understanding, developing a working
knowledge ,part of an over all approach based on and usage  of "kong jin"   
In doing so, no longer able to use or move in the same way in some of the CMA styles I've trained in before...


Not interested in debating, validating or proving my own practice or of others working on the same things as in some of the clips of teachers posted showing their work...

Can share some thoughts, and findings... for inquiries


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## mograph (Nov 12, 2022)

windwalker099 said:


> For those mentioning the "internal"
> 
> What can you do "now" that you couldn't do before.


Recruiting more muscles, and aligning/distributing effort over more of the structure, I suppose. Being more aware of pushing from the ground. Being more aware of the finer functioning of my body: refining _interoception_.
Also, just being more ... "zippy." Having more energy available. They called me "rabbit" on the squash court.

This is based on Zhan Zhuang.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Nov 13, 2022)

windwalker099 said:


> For those mentioning the "internal"
> 
> What can you do "now" that you couldn't do before.
> 
> ...


Balance, posture, coordination, expansion, extension, transportation, explosion. That is creating the structure, then moving it in virtuous harmony.


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## mograph (Nov 13, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Balance, posture, coordination, expansion, extension, transportation, explosion. That is creating the structure, then moving it in virtuous harmony.


Yes. Unity and harmony.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Nov 13, 2022)

mograph said:


> Yes. Unity and harmony.


Also, the art of stacking and folding.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Nov 13, 2022)

windwalker099 said:


> For those mentioning the "internal"
> 
> What can you do "now" that you couldn't do before.
> 
> ...


On a lighter note, I can feel my fourth toes as well as the others…


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