# Where did Chow's Hung Gar go?



## Flying Crane (Aug 27, 2009)

The motivation for this thread came from a discussion going on in another thread, and I thought it might be worth separating and making a distinct discussion out of this topic.

I have seen it written that William Chow learned hung gar from his father.  Does anyone have any solid evidence that they can offer, to substantiate this?  

If William Chow did in fact learn hung gar from his father, was it included in some format or other in what he taught to his students, including Ed Parker?  If not, why not?  If so, what aspects/elements of hung gar made its way into the kenpo that Mr. Parker learned from him, and taught to his own students in the 1950s thru 1960s?

My observations are this:  Hung Gar has its own body of forms and techniques, as well as  signature way of moving and executing its techniques.  I am by no means a hung gar expert.  I am not even "knowledgeable" about hung gar.  I have had some limited exposure to hung gar, perhaps enough to recognize a hung gar "flavor" of movement.  While recognizing my own limited knowledge of hung gar, I do not see much in kenpo that is indicative of a hung gar origin.  Hung gar forms are not taught as part of Parker-derived kenpo curriculum (with an exception that I will discuss in a moment).  I've never seen anything in kenpo's basic techniques, methodologies, power generation, etc., that were indicative of or expressed as hung gar in origin.

Tracy kenpo has attempted to maintain a curriculum that is closer to what Mr. Parker was teaching in the 1950s to early 1960s, prior to many of the changes that Mr. Parker implemented.  This means that the Tracy system ought to be closer to what Mr. Chow taught Mr. Parker.  So, if Mr. Chow was teaching hung gar to Mr. Parker, it ought to be visible in Tracy kenpo.  In my opinion, it is not.  

Now I'll get back to my caveat from above: a version of hung gar's Tiger and Crane form was brought into kenpo.  This was dropped from the curriculum by Mr. Parker, but in Tracys lineage it was kept.  Perhaps other lineages have also kept it, I dunno.  But, I believe this version was brought in by Jimmy Woo, and not William Chow.  So, while earlier kenpo had at least that much hung gar influence, it did not come from Chow.  Some people claim that the Panther set is also Hung Gar in origin.  I have my doubts about that.  That form was also brought in by James Woo, but I do not believe that it came from Hung Gar.  I don't know exactly where Mr. Woo got that form, but I think that question remains unanswered.  I think if a hung gar person was shown that form, he would not recognize it as having come from hung gar.  Altho there are several lineages of hung gar, and some have material that other lineages don't have, so it is a possibility.  However, again, that did not come from Chow.

In the other discussion that prompted this thread, it was mentioned that Chow's hung gar was worked into Kara-ho kenpo system.  I don't know anything about this system.  There are other Chow-derived systems that exist, that I also don't know anything about.  Ralph Castro's comes to mind.  So there are certainly other possibilities out there, and I don't know about them.

But as far as I have seen, I don't see anything to suggest to me that Chow had a background in hung gar, and that it influenced Mr. Parker's early kenpo.

If anyone has anything to add, please do.  I am genuinely interested in hearing about it, or having specific examples pointed out to me to illustrate the existence of Hung Gar from Chow, in Parker-derived kenpo.

What happened to Chow's Hung Gar?


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## Twin Fist (Aug 27, 2009)

well, lets see, we know that mitose taught hard line japanese style karate with no flow

we know that all of chows students had flow. Parker, Castro, Emperado, Kuoha, etc

it is safe to say SOMETHING was added.


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## TenTigers (Aug 27, 2009)

I used to teach for Tracy's, and for a short time FVSSD (yeah, we all did some things we're not proud of) and for over 30 yrs, Siu Lum Hung Kuen (Hung-Ga) including Tang Fung lineage, Lam Sai-Wing lineage, and some village Hung Kuen/ I can safely say, without a doubt that there are alot of Hung-gar'isms in Tracy's Kenpo-as well as EP.
Some techniques that come to mind :
the upward elbow into the downward elbow/claw, into soft bow hammerfist. 
Thundering hammers,
anything with large arcing swings, 
windmill guard
darkness
smashing forearm into soft bow hammerfist (as in kimono grab)
double side palms to the solar plexus
takedowns utilizing the circling around his leg and taking him over your horse.
These techniques are almost verbatum in some of our forms.
I know there are more but I cannot recall. I no longer teach Kenpo-sort of. Many of the techniques have crept into my teaching, and I teach applications drawn out of the Hung-Ga forms in combinations like Kenpo.

I met a guy who studied a Malaysian Hung-Ga style, whose lineage did not go through Wong Fei-Hung, and it looked very much like Kenpo. He was fast, aggressive, close in, and hit with lightning fast barrages, one technique setting up the next, and ended with a takedown, and a stomp-pretty much Kenpo textbook, where I come from.

There are many obscure lineages in Hung-Ga. My own lineage, Tang-Fung line is not well known, unless you are well versed in Hung-Ga. There are many lines, village styles, family styles, etc.
Just because it doesn't resemble what you see in "Mainstream Hung-Gar," doesn't mean it isn't Hung Kuen. Chow might have learned one of these more obscure styles, or possibly only bits and pieces from his father-who in turn might not have an entire system, but still learned skills. Not everybody learned an entire system. Some just learned what they needed. Just enough to handle themselves.


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## John Bishop (Aug 27, 2009)

In a audio taped interview of Prof. Chow I heard, he described his fathers training as being in "Shaolin" kung fu.  He also claimed that at one time his father was a "Shaolin Monk".  And he called his system "Shaolin Kenpo" at one time in the 60's.  
In the 70's-80's the official Tracy history proclaimed that Chow's father had in fact practiced "Hung Gar" kung fu.  That was pretty convincing since many people did not know about the hung gar that James Wing Woo contributed to kenpo.  Later the official Tracy history changed to proclaim that Chow's father had no martial training.  Probably somewhere in between is the truth. All the people that I have talked to who knew or trained with Chow, said that he was adept at kung fu.  Where he got the knowledge is the dispute.

If anyone is interested in seeing actual video of Prof. Chow, there are 2 clips on my website.

http://kajukenboinfo.com/professor_chow.aspx


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## KenpoDave (Aug 27, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> well, lets see, we know that mitose taught hard line japanese style karate with no flow


 
No, we don't.  



> we know that all of chows students had flow. Parker, Castro, Emperado, Kuoha, etc


 
Yes, we do.



> it is safe to say SOMETHING was added.


 
Yes it is.


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## Xinglu (Aug 27, 2009)

I'll bring these over from the other thread:



Xinglu said:


> With Chow, he obviously did abandon hongjia in favor of kenpo (otherwise I think he never would have bothered much with Mitosie and would have just taught hongjia), however it is still readily apparent in his approach to techniques.  And IMHO is still apparent in some of the kara-ho techniques. They have a penchant to grab soft tissue and rip, this does not come from Aikido, Karate, or the Jujitsu elements.  Certainly, not  from the Korean influence....  I don't know I have seen a lot of Hingjia forms and seen demos of their practical applications, the similarities and cruelty in the destruction caused is uncanny.  And from what I've heard from GM Kuoha during "Dojo story times" is that Chow was an incredibly cruel and destructive fighter.  I just call that smart fighting, but hey to each their own!  The Hongjia connection just makes sense to me.  Unfortunately there is no way to know for absolute certain.  There are conflicting stories, but I view GM Kuoha as an honest man with no reason to lie about it, and he knew Chow quite well.  And considering he inherited the system from Chow, I have a hard time believing he'd perpetuate a myth that had no grounding in reality.
> 
> *Who knows, I have never heard that Chow was a master of hongjia, just that his father taught it to him growing up.  Perhaps his hongjia was not very advanced when he left to train in Kenpo-Jujitsu but good enough to improve what he learned from Mitose*.  It is something interesting to think about that is for sure.





Xinglu said:


> There is also the distinct possibility that his instructors don't emphasize those movements or principles.  For example, The instructor I learned Kara-ho from trained directly under Chow.  So the influence might be stronger because of that - The Tracy's (please correct me if I'm wrong) are teaching parker's system pre what they call "commercialization" and pre-rift with Woo.
> 
> That means Parker had Changed things *a lot* and blended a lot in, They have also taught Kenpo according to their own interpretation.  I don't know if he studied under the Tracy's or under someone who trained from them... but generationally he might be a lot further removed from Chow then say I am, thus what he is learned might not look as close to what Chow was doing as what I have seen.



Now (because I have seen statements like this blow up on here before) I don't mean for that to sound like what I learned is better, just that it is less removed from Chow and perhaps that is why it is more visible, nothing more implied


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## Xinglu (Aug 27, 2009)

Specific examples in Kara-Ho.  Extensive use of groin grabs and rips followed by elbows.  Ear ripping and eye raking techniques.  The end of the Kwai-Sun Kata has a distinct Hongjia feel as does the salutes to Professor Chow and GM Kuoha.  Also Kwai-Sun uses a combination of tiger and crane techniques commonly seen in Hongjia.  A lot of the trapping techniques found in Kara-ho have a hongjia feel to them too.  I never saw any of it until I started training with my buddy who has been doing hongjia for 15 years.  It was an eye opener for me.


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## Danjo (Aug 27, 2009)

Several people that trained with Prof. Chow told me that he used to go around and kick the crap out of Kung Fu guys who gave him a hard time for teaching to non-Chinese. If all he taught was Kenpo or Karate, or his own invention, then why would they have cared? They only cared if you taught Kung Fu to outsiders, so there must have been some in what he taught. Where he learned it, who knows? Prof. Chow also claimed that after his father died, he would be visited in his dreams by his father showing him kung fu and that supposedly he got the name Kara Ho from his father in a dream. This was _long_ before Obi Wan Kenobi pulled that trick with Luke Skywalker.


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## Xinglu (Aug 28, 2009)

Danjo said:


> Several people that trained with Prof. Chow told me that he used to go around and kick the crap out of Kung Fu guys who gave him a hard time for teaching to non-Chinese. If all he taught was Kenpo or Karate, or his own invention, then why would they have cared? They only cared if you taught Kung Fu to outsiders, so there must have been some in what he taught.


What I was implying was that the gongfu element was not as prevalent as the kenpo jujitsu.

For example - intermediate understanding of gongfu principles blended in to a linear art can make the art extremely fluid while retaining power.  I'm only stating that no where has anyone ever said he was a "master" at gongfu.  Just that he had learned some from his father growing up. 



Danjo said:


> Where he learned it, who knows? Prof. Chow also claimed that after his father died, he would be visited in his dreams by his father showing him kung fu and that supposedly he got the name Kara Ho from his father in a dream. This was _long_ before Obi Wan Kenobi pulled that trick with Luke Skywalker.



Yes, true.  So I take it you think dreams hold no value, yes? No? Do you assert that the subconscious can't remind us of things that are buried deep through dreams?  This would be a simple explanation of what Chow experienced.


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## Danjo (Aug 28, 2009)

Xinglu said:


> Yes, true. So I take it you think dreams hold no value, yes? No? Do you assert that the subconscious can't remind us of things that are buried deep through dreams? This would be a simple explanation of what Chow experienced.


 
Brother, I'm a Pisces. Of _course_ I believe that dreams have value.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Aug 28, 2009)

Fun chat with a Chow-Hoon oldster (Chows half-brother). Stories about Chows father running a numbers-type racket, and WKS CHow and his bro being the thumb-stretchers for the house. Apparently, being taught the kung-fu they would need to do the job well. Pre-Mitose.

No idea of it's true or not; seems to depend on who you ask.


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## Twin Fist (Aug 28, 2009)

KenpoDave said:


> No, we don't.



uh, yes, we do. Lots of people that have no obligation or self interest in believing the Tracy stories have all stated opinions, and they are all the same.

Mitose was basic, hard style linear karate. no circular movements. No flow. We have an ACTUAL witness here that has said so.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 28, 2009)

Thank you, this is the kind of information I was hoping someone might be able to offer up.

My own extremely limited experience with hung ga is a definite roadblock for me to be able to recognize and compare the two arts.   If you have extensive experience with hung ga and kenpo, and can see the connections and similarities, that's what I was hoping to hear about.

Could you characterize the power theory utilized in hung ga, and compare it to that in the kenpo that you are familiar with?  I'm wondering if there are parallels there, or if the underlying theories may be different?



TenTigers said:


> I used to teach for Tracy's, and for a short time FVSSD (yeah, we all did some things we're not proud of) and for over 30 yrs, Siu Lum Hung Kuen (Hung-Ga) including Tang Fung lineage, Lam Sai-Wing lineage, and some village Hung Kuen/ I can safely say, without a doubt that there are alot of Hung-gar'isms in Tracy's Kenpo-as well as EP.
> Some techniques that come to mind :
> the upward elbow into the downward elbow/claw, into soft bow hammerfist.
> Thundering hammers,
> ...


 

I think this is a very important point you've made.  When I hear that So-and-so learned X system, I tend to make the assumption that what they learned was fairly complete, and creates a legacy that would be handed down to the next generation.  Of course I need to back up and remember that that is not necessarily the case.  If Chow had hung ga training, who knows how extensive it may have been?  It could have even been just a little bit, but he was very very good at what he knew.

Thanks for contributing a worthwhile post to this discussion.



> Chow might have learned one of these more obscure styles, or possibly only bits and pieces from his father-who in turn might not have an entire system, but still learned skills. Not everybody learned an entire system. Some just learned what they needed. Just enough to handle themselves.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 28, 2009)

John Bishop said:


> In a audio taped interview of Prof. Chow I heard, he described his fathers training as being in "Shaolin" kung fu.


 
given that hung ga is generally characterized as a southern Shaolin-derived art, this would be in line with a claim that he learned hung ga.




> He also claimed that at one time his father was a "Shaolin Monk". And he called his system "Shaolin Kenpo" at one time in the 60's.
> In the 70's-80's the official Tracy history proclaimed that Chow's father had in fact practiced "Hung Gar" kung fu. That was pretty convincing since many people did not know about the hung gar that James Wing Woo contributed to kenpo. Later the official Tracy history changed to proclaim that Chow's father had no martial training. Probably somewhere in between is the truth. All the people that I have talked to who knew or trained with Chow, said that he was adept at kung fu. Where he got the knowledge is the dispute.
> 
> If anyone is interested in seeing actual video of Prof. Chow, there are 2 clips on my website.
> ...


 
interesting historical notes.  thx.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 28, 2009)

Xinglu said:


> Specific examples in Kara-Ho. Extensive use of groin grabs and rips followed by elbows. Ear ripping and eye raking techniques. The end of the Kwai-Sun Kata has a distinct Hongjia feel as does the salutes to Professor Chow and GM Kuoha. Also Kwai-Sun uses a combination of tiger and crane techniques commonly seen in Hongjia. A lot of the trapping techniques found in Kara-ho have a hongjia feel to them too. I never saw any of it until I started training with my buddy who has been doing hongjia for 15 years. It was an eye opener for me.


 
Thanks for joining in the discussion on this side.  I appreciate the comments you've offered.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 28, 2009)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> Fun chat with a Chow-Hoon oldster (Chows half-brother). Stories about Chows father running a numbers-type racket, and WKS CHow and his bro being the thumb-stretchers for the house. Apparently, being taught the kung-fu they would need to do the job well. Pre-Mitose.
> 
> No idea of it's true or not; seems to depend on who you ask.


 
Thanks Dave, interesting comment.  I think I recall you've mentioned this in discussions in the past.  Intesting note: "seems to depend on who you ask".  There seems to be a lot of that in kenpo.  I guess that's what happens when you have a mutt of an art.


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## Xinglu (Aug 28, 2009)

Danjo said:


> Brother, I'm a Pisces. Of _course_ I believe that dreams have value.



LOL, I just wanted to clarify before I made any assumptions.  

I have had dreams like his before.  I was looking at my xingyiquan training one night and looking at my kenpo techniques and figuring out ways to integrate the two.  I had some marginal success and got frustrated. It was late and I was tired so I decided to go to bed.  I have wild gongfu/kenpo dreams that night and I was preforming these techniques that were definitely kenpo-like but solidly rooted in xingyi principles.  When I woke up I remembered every thing and wrote it all down s o I wouldn't forget.  Turns out, my subconscious mind had a whole lot to teach me!  So I approach Chow's dreams like that, representational and not literal, even if he thought they were.


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## Xinglu (Aug 28, 2009)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> Fun chat with a Chow-Hoon oldster (Chows half-brother). Stories about Chows father running a numbers-type racket, and WKS CHow and his bro being the thumb-stretchers for the house. Apparently, being taught the kung-fu they would need to do the job well. Pre-Mitose.
> 
> No idea of it's true or not; seems to depend on who you ask.



I tend towards believing this to be plausible.  I mean, a lot of guys back then did what they had to do to get by, legal considerations were secondary.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Aug 28, 2009)

Xinglu said:


> I tend towards believing this to be plausible. I mean, a lot of guys back then did what they had to do to get by, legal considerations were secondary.


 
Not to mention the Chinese culture is very insular, and tends to maintain its own momentum in seclusion. Gambling is an integral part of the culture, and there was a mass influx of Chinese workers to Hawaii in Chows fathers generation. What seems like illegal activity, graft, or excess violence in collection activities would be, in that context, a norm.


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## Twin Fist (Aug 28, 2009)

wow sounds like CHow said lots of things.

you would think the history wouldnt be so convoluted, it wasnt that long ago


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## Xinglu (Aug 28, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> wow sounds like CHow said lots of things.
> 
> you would think the history wouldnt be so convoluted, it wasnt that long ago



Most Americans can't get the reasons congress cited for going into Iraq right, and that happened in *this* decade.

With that track record, it is unreasonable to think that a smaller group of people could remember all the facts about a man over two and a half decades after his death.

Okay, all "snarkiness" aside, the root of the problem is that when someone says something to a group of people, each person hears something slightly different.  Fast forward 40+ years and this is what we have.

I find that the truth is in the commonalities and more often then not, in between the contradictions.


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## KenpoDave (Aug 31, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> uh, yes, we do. Lots of people that have no obligation or self interest in believing the Tracy stories have all stated opinions, and they are all the same.
> 
> Mitose was basic, hard style linear karate. no circular movements. No flow. We have an ACTUAL witness here that has said so.


 
An actual witness to a demonstration.  I doubt that it was all encompassing of what Mitose taught.  We don't know what all he taught.


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## punisher73 (Aug 31, 2009)

I think alot of it lies in the fact that, most of the founders didn't KNOW they were making history.  They just did what they loved and picked up things here and there and shared it with others.  They didn't think to document everything. 

Also, the "lineage" thing is a lot more modern cultural aspect brought into the martial arts.  It wasn't really found in the okinawan culture.  Many people studied with many people and learned bits of techniques or a kata with so-and-so.  

I think due to the culture, someone learning kung fu from your Chinese father would be equivalent to a father here in the US teaching his son some boxing.  You wouldn't really think about "lineage" of where he learned it from, or would you classify your dad as a boxer either.  

Lastly, I also think it is possible that Chow was VERY talented and could pick up things without being formally taught them and could have learned kung fu from watching others fight/practice and then incorporated those elements into his own approach/study.


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## Xinglu (Sep 1, 2009)

punisher73 said:


> I think due to the culture, someone learning kung fu from your Chinese father would be equivalent to a father here in the US teaching his son some boxing.  You wouldn't really think about "lineage" of where he learned it from, or would you classify your dad as a boxer either.



True.  We also don't know how regularly and formally he trained with his father.  So we have no Idea how much he actually learned or if it was the equivalent of learning the boxing basics.  Which would be enough to apply the principles of basic hongjia into kenpo, and create drastic change.


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## dianhsuhe (Sep 2, 2009)

Grandmaster Kuoha has been active both on this site as well as the Kenpotalk site so you might direct your question to him.

Xinglu-  How long did you train in Kara-Ho and with whom?


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## Xinglu (Sep 2, 2009)

dianhsuhe said:


> Grandmaster Kuoha has been active both on this site as well as the Kenpotalk site so you might direct your question to him.


This was my original recommendation on the "Differences" thread.



dianhsuhe said:


> Xinglu-  How long did you train in Kara-Ho and with whom?


I already answered this on the "differences" thread, but I will answer it again here - I studied for ten years under GM, from Age seven to seventeen.  I also trained a bit with Shihan Kahananui as I was very interested in kiatsu.  In fact I have him to thank for inspiring me to learn the healing arts and therefore for my career.


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## still learning (Sep 6, 2009)

Hello, Just found some info here....Please read

Chinese Kara-Ho Volume one:   Sam Kuoha books will tell you about Professor Chows-   the truths is listed here from Sam and Mrs Chow!

Please read read the book for yourself and GET THE FACTS PLEASE!

There is a copy of Professor Chows certificate of Death 
Pictures of Professor Chows Father: Buddhist Priest Chow Hoon
Professor Willam Kwai Sun Chow (1952-1953)...Jugo-dan 15th Degree Black Belt.

Professor Sam Kuoha was awarded a 9th Degree Black Belt by Professor Chow...one of his top students.

Aloha,


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## Xinglu (Sep 7, 2009)

still learning said:


> Hello, Just found some info here....Please read
> 
> Chinese Kara-Ho Volume one:   Sam Kuoha books will tell you about Professor Chows-   the truths is listed here from Sam and Mrs Chow!
> 
> ...



I own a copy of both books published and have read them cover to cover multiple time.  What Facts are missing on this thread regarding Hongjia?

On pages 3 Chow Hoon's martial training is generically refered to as gongfu (that could be anything).  On page 19 it reads "...the training started with the learning of the family style of _gongfu_ from Priest Chow Hoon, to Professor Chow."

It then goes on to read That Chow Hoon emigrated from &#19978;&#28023; (Shanghai) to Hawaii and worked as a tailor, that gongfu and taijiquan training was mandatory in all schools in China and American-Chinese schools.

But never does the book address what type of gongfu it is.  A family style?  Which line?  Hongjia IS a family style, do the Chows trace family lineage to them?  The book does not address the specifics.


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## still learning (Sep 7, 2009)

Xinglu said:


> I own a copy of both books published and have read them cover to cover multiple time. What Facts are missing on this thread regarding Hongjia?
> 
> On pages 3 Chow Hoon's martial training is generically refered to as gongfu (that could be anything). On page 19 it reads "...the training started with the learning of the family style of _gongfu_ from Priest Chow Hoon, to Professor Chow."
> 
> ...


 
Hello, Thank-you for the additional informations and Yes...NOT all is listed too....Just the facts known to from Professor Kuaho..

Aloha,

PS: Most Martials Arts...have very few Docomented histories...of the past....


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## Xinglu (Sep 7, 2009)

still learning said:


> Hello, Thank-you for the additional informations and Yes...NOT all is listed too....Just the facts known to from Professor Kuaho..
> 
> Aloha,
> 
> PS: Most Martials Arts...have very few Docomented histories...of the past....



Having been a student of GM Kuoha, I can attest that the two books he wrote are just the basics and do not impart all the facts of knowledge he has regarding anything in the books.


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## dianhsuhe (Sep 7, 2009)

Grandmaster Kuoha will tell you that the new Professor Chow is found in the 6-10 and 11-15 techniques which were designed by Professor Chow in the late 70's and earl 80's.

Actual Kara-Ho techniques are never published in full, and this is intentional.  Even the most basic of techniques.  In the older magazines the techniques described are improvised often including parts of actual techniques.

There were just too many folks teaching their "impression" of Kara-Ho back in the day and learning techniques from magazines alone.

The 6-10's are taught to the students at Nidan moving towards Sandan and there are not many folks at that level in Kara-Ho.

These books are meant to cover the basics as Daniel mentioned, nothing or real signifigance is covered in the first book- there were other volumes planned...

Take care,
Jamey


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## dianhsuhe (Sep 13, 2009)

I can tell you that the advanced series of techniques in Kara-Ho Kempo (6-10's and 11-15's) are VERY circular and obviously have a major Kung-Fu influence.  

The hard part is finding someone to show them to ou-

Jamey


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