# bad kyusho acting



## thetruth (Dec 8, 2006)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtsOiwCW7_k&mode=related&search=

Wow, this guy jumps.  I've never seen such poor kyusho acting.  This kyusho needs much more practice.

Cheers
Sammy:asian:


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## thetruth (Dec 8, 2006)

Sorry guys the one above is pretty good acting for the defence against a guy who likes you legs so much he is hugging them.     This one has the poor acting in it.

Cheers
Sammy:asian:


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## MJS (Dec 8, 2006)

Mod Note

Thread moved to Horror Stories.

Mike Slosek
MT Supermod


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## DavidCC (Dec 8, 2006)

the second one, I think I agree with you.  the way that guy flops onto his bck is unusual and does not demonstrate the proper body reaction to those strikes.



however the first video, the strikes to the back... I've felt that technique and it is nasty.

as far as "hugging the legs"... 
I'm not sure of you've ever tried to teach a technique to a group of people, but when you are teaching you need to go through it slowly, with that attacker possibly even stopping sometimes so that you can explain the finer points of the technique.  So that is why it appears that the attacker is simply hugging the legs.  That video is a teaching demonstration, not an exhibition of how to apply the technique full-speed.


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## MALibrarian (Dec 10, 2006)

It's not so much the fact that the attacker has stopped as it is the body position of the defender in relation to the attacker while displaying the technique.  

If the attacker has a grip on the backs of your thighs and you are still upright, all they need to do is keep driving forward, pull in and lift and you will go down before you know what hit you.  On the other hand, if you sprawl (or react before they shoot in and step off line while cross facing) then you will have a chance to get the strike in question off.  But that demonstration is a little bit unrealistic, even for a slow motion demonstration.


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## searcher (Dec 11, 2006)

Oh so sad.   Why can't they just give it up?


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## kosho (Dec 11, 2006)

WOW, Not sure. I would truly have to feel this.......


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## thetruth (Dec 12, 2006)

DavidCC said:


> the second one, I think I agree with you.  the way that guy flops onto his bck is unusual and does not demonstrate the proper body reaction to those strikes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Remember one thing.   Inorder for this sort of tap crap to even have a chance of working you must set up the person using other points (the cycle of destruction etc etc).  In a seminar it is easy to have all of those attending do various drills on each other thus setting up the points in advance so that when the instructor (Evan Pantazi in this case) does a technique they just have to finish it off and they look great doing it.  I have logged on to the kyusho international forum twice and both times I got kicked off within 24 hours.  Evan wrote once that 2 guys from the Miletich camp came to train with him and couldn't believe how easy it was yet they left and didn't add it to their arsenal.  Why?  Well Evan said that they weren't ready to accept that pressure points were better than what they were learning.  I say it's because without the sterile dojo environment  the tippy tap pressure points are rendered useless and dangerous. If you want to use pressure points use them but hit them hard and if you miss or they don't work your technique works regardless.  Also the reason I brought up the MMA guys is because that sort of tackle would be something you would come acroos regularly in that kind of competition.


That's all 4 now
Cheers
Sam:asian:


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## DavidCC (Dec 12, 2006)

thetruth said:


> Remember one thing. Inorder for this sort of tap crap to even have a chance of working you must set up the person using other points (the cycle of destruction etc etc).


 
Actually, the guys at KI do not teach the destructive cycle (any more).

and "taps" are just for training.  

-DC


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## thetruth (Dec 12, 2006)

DavidCC said:


> Actually, the guys at KI do not teach the destructive cycle (any more).
> 
> and "taps" are just for training.
> 
> -DC



So what you are saying is that you can just hit one point and the person will fall down?  So all evan had to do was slap the guys back and he would have fallen over? Is the elemental theory is wrong or do KI have another way of teaching the same thing? I have seen pressure points fail too often.  I wouldn't rely on any technique that doesn't work with out pressure points.  For example the slapping of the back is just a rubbish technique without pressure points and  given that there are a lot of variables that can effect the outcome of a pressure point strike why risk your life on such a silly technique.  By all means if you are striking someones face aim for st5 or whatever because if you miss is doesn't matter as the strike will be effective and have an outcome in your favour.  Don't do silly techniques just to utilise pressure points as you will just get hurt no matter how effective it seems in the dojo.

Cheers
Sam:asian:


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## DavidCC (Dec 13, 2006)

thetruth said:


> So what you are saying is that you can just hit one point and the person will fall down? So all evan had to do was slap the guys back and he would have fallen over?


 
No, I'm saying that in the KI sessions I attend, they have stopped teaching the elemental cycles. These other things you say are your own ideas, or words you are trying to put in my mouth so that you can disagree with them? LOL no, that is not what I am saying. Do you beleive that using the elemental destructive cycle this technique would be effective?

Do I believe it is possible to cause a physical/mental disassociation with one blow? Yes. Is that what is going on in this clip? No. What you don't know about this particular technique is that there are earleir strikes that set it up, which are not shown on this video clip. 

Do you think it is necessary to sequence multiple points (on or off the destructive cycle) to cause a physical/mental disassociation? 



thetruth said:


> Is the elemental theory is wrong or do KI have another way of teaching the same thing?


 
I don't know nearly enough to say if it is "wrong" however I have heard it described as "not necessary". 



thetruth said:


> I have seen pressure points fail too often. I wouldn't rely on any technique that doesn't work with out pressure points. For example the slapping of the back is just a rubbish technique without pressure points and given that there are a lot of variables that can effect the outcome of a pressure point strike why risk your life on such a silly technique. By all means if you are striking someones face aim for st5 or whatever because if you miss is doesn't matter as the strike will be effective and have an outcome in your favour.


 
Like if you miss and punch the crown of their head and break your hand? My point is, any technique can be scewed up and not have an outcome in your favor.




thetruth said:


> Don't do silly techniques just to utilise pressure points as you will just get hurt no matter how effective it seems in the dojo.
> 
> Cheers
> Sam:asian:


 
That, in a nutshell, is the difference between Dillman's group and KI.


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## MALibrarian (Dec 13, 2006)

DavidCC said:


> Do I believe it is possible to cause a physical/mental disassociation with one blow? Yes.




Might I ask what you mean by this?  It's a usage of terminology I am not familiar with.

Thank you in advance!


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## DavidCC (Dec 13, 2006)

"Physical / Mental Disassociation" 

"KO'd" but not necessarily unconcious.  dazed.  stunned.  brain and body can't find each other.  It's a term I lifted from somebody who probably has much more detailed technical definition.  Unconcious may be the most extreme state of PMD lol.


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## MALibrarian (Dec 13, 2006)

Ah, not a bad way of puting it.  Thank you!


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## thetruth (Dec 14, 2006)

DavidCC said:


> Do I believe it is possible to cause a physical/mental disassociation with one blow? Yes. Is that what is going on in this clip? No. What you don't know about this particular technique is that there are earleir strikes that set it up, which are not shown on this video clip.
> 
> Do you think it is necessary to sequence multiple points (on or off the destructive cycle) to cause a physical/mental disassociation?
> 
> ...



I have seen the drills KI teach at each level and they are dangerous and the techniques do rely soley on pressure points to work as if you miss the points there is nothing behind them.

Also if the technique that evan did was using strikes to set it up then there has to be some kind of theory behind it. What theory do they use and how is it better or more effective that the elemental cycles?  Hence if you miss just one point during the set up phase the technique is useless and you end up flat on your back getting pounded.  That means that the technique he is doing is wholely relying on points as I don't know one person who is from an art that doesn't utilise pressure points  that would do that.

Cheers
Sam:asian:

Cheers
Sam


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## DavidCC (Dec 14, 2006)

thetruth said:


> I don't know one person who is from an art that doesn't utilise pressure points that would do that.
> 
> Cheers
> Sam:asian:
> ...


 
"I don't care who you are, that's funny."  I don't know one person from an art that doesn't use pressure points that would use pressure points either LOL

If your technique is "punch in the head" and you miss the head, does your technique work?  What is your back up hahaha

You are really missing the point of how these combinations are used to teach the PRINCIPLES of kyusho manipulation.  Sure you can analyze any video or videos of anyone teaching or demonstrating combination(s) and find any number of ways to say "that wouldn't work" under whatever imaginable circumstance.  But what you would miss by doing that would be the underlying idea...  one idea in this particular clip being that there are points accessible in the back that can weaken the legs and disrupt the balance.

I don't know how Pantazzi develops his combinations for teaching Kyusho principles.  I don't know if he uses elemental sequences or if his father teaches it to him in dreams or if he got them form old chinese forms.  it doesn't matter because they are useful for teaching what he wants to teach.

When we learn the Kyusho principles at my school, we ue them to enhance our Kempo techniques.  Do you see how your position about "nothing behind them" is mistaken?


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## thetruth (Dec 17, 2006)

DavidCC said:


> "I don't care who you are, that's funny."  I don't know one person from an art that doesn't use pressure points that would use pressure points either LOL
> 
> If your technique is "punch in the head" and you miss the head, does your technique work?  What is your back up hahaha
> 
> ...



If he is utilizing old forms then the elemental sequence is in play.  I can see where yoy are coming from but a lot of the techniques he teaches along with the drills to develop them are flawed.  All I am saying is that if you perform a block for example then regardless of whether you are aiming to strike points the block should be strong enough to stop what it is trying to stop. I'm not sure you understand where i am coming from.  


Cheers
Sam:asian:


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## D.Cobb (Dec 31, 2006)

DavidCC said:


> &quot;I don't care who you are, that's funny.&quot;  I don't know one person from an art that doesn't use pressure points that would use pressure points either LOL
> 
> If your technique is &quot;punch in the head&quot; and you miss the head, does your technique work?  What is your back up hahaha
> 
> ...


 
From what I can see, having trained in the methods of KI and others, is that Evin Pantsnasty claims that you can learn effective kyusho techniques using his method of teaching. That is, you don't need to learn katas or technique combinations, you just need to practise the drills that point the way to the pressure points and the rest takes care of its self. Now I've trained at this crap (KI/ Dillman) with all manner of experienced fighters, and I've been known to enjoy the occassional stoush myself  
The thing they continually leave out is the fact that no matter who you are, or what little secrets you use, you must have a delivery system!!
The thing I find most amusing about these knuckle heads is that in their early days, they raved about the lack of force required to KO someone. These days they tell you to "just keep on hitting till he falls down."
Well, thank you very much!! 
I can get that advice from any boxing school anywhere in the world. Also the amount of faith they have in their techs that incur pain. Now I don't know too many people who can stand there while everything is calm and stand against a well placed finger lock or other tech designed to introduce you to a whole new world of hurt. But take those same "puppets on a string" and put them in a highly adrenalised state, and you can break their fingers while they are punching holes in the side of your head.. I'm sure you see where I'm coming from. 
I believe that PP work, but only with a principle based delivery system. The guy that you lifted *physical/mental disassociation* from will tell you, "If it needs pain to work, then it is bound to fail!"

At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter what any of us believe. If you believe that pressure points work in combat, then use them or find out how to... If you think they won't help you in a blue, then don't even think about going after them, just keep hitting the badguy until he drops.

Anyhoo, that's my 0.02 worth.

--Dave


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## DavidCC (Jan 3, 2007)

D.Cobb said:


> From what I can see, having trained in the methods of KI and others, is that Evin Pantsnasty claims that you can learn effective kyusho techniques using his method of teaching. That is, you don't need to learn katas or technique combinations, you just need to practise the drills that point the way to the pressure points and the rest takes care of its self. Now I've trained at this crap (KI/ Dillman) with all manner of experienced fighters, and I've been known to enjoy the occassional stoush myself
> The thing they continually leave out is the fact that no matter who you are, or what little secrets you use, you must have a delivery system!!


 
You are wrong on a number of counts.
Pantazzi makes extensive use of kata and traiing combinations.
Since my first class my instructor has told us - you need a delivery system.  His exact words "delivery system".





D.Cobb said:


> The thing I find most amusing about these knuckle heads is that in their early days, they raved about the lack of force required to KO someone. These days they tell you to "just keep on hitting till he falls down."
> Well, thank you very much!!


 
So your advice would be, hit them as lightly as possible to get the KO?



D.Cobb said:


> I can get that advice from any boxing school anywhere in the world. Also the amount of faith they have in their techs that incur pain. Now I don't know too many people who can stand there while everything is calm and stand against a well placed finger lock or other tech designed to introduce you to a whole new world of hurt. But take those same "puppets on a string" and put them in a highly adrenalised state, and you can break their fingers while they are punching holes in the side of your head.. I'm sure you see where I'm coming from.
> I believe that PP work, but only with a principle based delivery system. The guy that you lifted *physical/mental disassociation* from will tell you, "If it needs pain to work, then it is bound to fail!"


 
From my first Kyusho class my instructor has taught us that pain is not important and should not be relied on to make the technique work.  Pain is sometimes a by-product of a properly applied technique.

Like an immunization, some people cry when they see the needle and some people don't seem to notice the injection at all... but they both got the medicine.




D.Cobb said:


> At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter what any of us believe. If you believe that pressure points work in combat, then use them or find out how to... If you think they won't help you in a blue, then don't even think about going after them, just keep hitting the badguy until he drops.
> 
> Anyhoo, that's my 0.02 worth.
> 
> --Dave


 
This part, I can agree with.


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## MJS (Jan 3, 2007)

_*ATTENTION ALL USERS:

*_*Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Mike Slosek
-MT Super Moderator-*


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## thetruth (Jan 5, 2007)

D.Cobb said:


> From what I can see, having trained in the methods of KI and others, is that Evin Pantsnasty claims that you can learn effective kyusho techniques using his method of teaching. That is, you don't need to learn katas or technique combinations, you just need to practise the drills that point the way to the pressure points and the rest takes care of its self. Now I've trained at this crap (KI/ Dillman) with all manner of experienced fighters, and I've been known to enjoy the occassional stoush myself
> The thing they continually leave out is the fact that no matter who you are, or what little secrets you use, you must have a delivery system!!
> The thing I find most amusing about these knuckle heads is that in their early days, they raved about the lack of force required to KO someone. These days they tell you to "just keep on hitting till he falls down."
> Well, thank you very much!!
> ...



Well said cobby

Cheers mate
Sam:asian:


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## Hand Sword (Jan 5, 2007)

The clip reminded me of the church guy, who has God's power in his hands, touches someone on the forehead and they drop.


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## D.Cobb (Jan 5, 2007)

thetruth said:


> Sorry guys the one above is pretty good acting for the defence against a guy who likes you legs so much he is hugging them. This one has the poor acting in it.
> 
> Cheers
> Sammy:asian:


 

When I first saw this clip, on the Kyusho forum, I went to my instructor to ask about it. He spoke to Evan and got as much detail as possible, then we practised it. First like in the clip, and we made it work. Both of us could put the other one down with it. Then we put it into motion.....
Well now, there's a whole new ball game. The best odds we could get were about 1 in 5. Now I don't know about you guys but my life is worth more to me than 20% success. If you can't do it 100% in a dojo, no matter how hard your attacker/training buddy goes, then it probably won't work even 10% on the street.

You can not reach these points if the attacker is genuinely tackling you. By the time you can attack these points at full speed, your feet are off the floor and you are headed for mat rash. The thing that Evan and his buddies don't seem to understand, and it's taught by every teacher of Dim Mak type arts is that the most important thing in any technique is your posture. If your posture is off, then your so called Kyusho technique will NOT work. 

The evidence of the above statement is there for all to see on the Kyusho DVDs that Evan sells. If you watch the parts where the Good Ol' Boys club comes together to bash the living bejayzus out of the poor suckers who obviously know no better, you will see "Masters" and "Grand Masters" rocking back on their heels. You will see techniques against grabs fail to the point that the GM in question is inKlined to bash his Uke to the floor.

So it's ok to be able to show this stuff, when the attacker is standing there in position, but to do it in motion, means you have to be able to maintain your postural integrity up to the point where the attacker hits the ground. It must work under pressure, exactly the same or better than it did as "hit 1, hit 2, hit 3" etc. Any lapse or failure in any part of the technique, before the attacker hits the ground can put you in harms way, rather than take you out of it.

--Dave


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## D.Cobb (Jan 5, 2007)

DavidCC said:


> You are wrong on a number of counts.
> Pantazzi makes extensive use of kata and traiing combinations.
> Since my first class my instructor has told us - you need a delivery system. His exact words "delivery system".


 
Well then unless Evan has changed his way of thinking since he sent me packing, I would have to assume that the term "delivery system" is down to your instructor. Whilst I was a member of KI, we were always told by the big man, just do the drills.




> So your advice would be, hit them as lightly as possible to get the KO?


 
Well much as I hate to admit it, I have been sat down with the gentlest of rubs. No pain, no sting, no slap, just a rub. Since then I have met biff and bash artists, and true masters of pressure point combat. The point I was trying to get across was how they changed their song.

It used to be all about the technique, because true technique works!!
Now, it's like, don't worry about technique just smash 'em till they drop.
And as I said, that advice, I can get in any boxing school, and the beauty of boxing schools is, they don't charge an arm and a leg to share their knowledge with you.



> From my first Kyusho class my instructor has taught us that pain is not important and should not be relied on to make the technique work. Pain is sometimes a by-product of a properly applied technique.


 
That's excellent! May I ask you who he is? He obviously has not brought into the whole, "hurt them and they'll stop" thing.



> Like an immunization, some people cry when they see the needle and some people don't seem to notice the injection at all... but they both got the medicine.


 
I can't argue with this, but do keep in mind that some people are truley only affected by the barest minimum of points. Meaning that a lot of the places that you will attempt to create some kind of nerve facillitation, will not work on any level. The KI guys will tell you otherwise.



> This part, I can agree with.


Was that the statement I made regarding the use of pressure points, or that it was my $0.02 worth? 

--Dave


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