# SIU LIM TAO - question about Wu-sau and Fook-Sau



## jimbo123 (Sep 4, 2011)

I just wanted to make sure I understand this properly

1. Wu-sau - the tension should be in the elbow as you bring it back. The wrist and palm should stay in the centre line and just follow the elbow.
2. Fook-sau - the tension should be in the wrist. Keeping the wrist in the centre, the elbow is doing less work and just follows the wrist - like a train?
3. Does this condition the forearms?
4. When they say that you should practise it for like an hour a day, should the majority of the movements be Wu-sau and fook-sau? For example 99 Wu-sau and 100 Fook-sau? Or can I also do lots of Tan-sau and punches?
5. My stamina for this isn't very good. Do you think it is better to do it for 1 hour a day or something like 20 minutes, 3 times a day?
6. Is it okay to watch TV as I am doing this or should my mind be completely blank? Sometimes I lose track of how many fook-saus I've done.


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## mook jong man (Sep 4, 2011)

The elbow directs both movements , forward and back.
The tendons get a workout from the Huen sau's.

Who says you should practice it for an hour a day , taking five minutes to do the form is fine .
The rest of the 55 minutes you would be better off doing Chi sau and finishing off with a couple of hundred punches on the wall bag.

No it's not ok to watch tv while your doing it , you should be concentrating on relaxing your whole body , initiating the movements from your elbow and focusing your force out towards the centreline.


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## jimbo123 (Sep 4, 2011)

mook jong man said:


> Who says you should practice it for an hour a day , taking five minutes to do the form is fine.


I read somewhere that Ip Man used to do it for about an hour a day. My sifu said that it's good to do about 100 fook-sau and wu-saus but he never mentioned anything about time.

We haven't got to the chi-sau bit yet, I'm still a beginner


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## mook jong man (Sep 5, 2011)

The difference is that Yip Man was a Master and could supervise his own development and at his level he would have only of been concerned with continuing to cultivate internal energy.
At your level I think you would be better served concentrating on the whole form and not just picking a few things out of it.

If I were you I would just concentrate on standing in the stance correctly , with your arms pulled back and just focus on relaxing in your stance , with no arm movement at all , do this for about 10 or 15 minutes.

Then I would practice the whole form taking about 5 minutes , then maybe some pivoting for another 10 minutes.
After pivoting , work on moving around in your stance continuously stepping in  random directions , staying relaxed and springy in the thighs , do this for about 10 minutes.

Do the form again then finish off with about 5 minutes of continuous punch at a lively pace with the last 30 seconds going flat out , as fast as you can possibly move your arms.

I think exercises like this will give you some well rounded development rather than what you were doing before , which is really something a more experienced practitioner would be doing.


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## Domino (Sep 6, 2011)

jimbo123 said:


> I read somewhere that Ip Man used to do it for about an hour a day. My sifu said that it's good to do about 100 fook-sau and wu-saus but he never mentioned anything about time.
> 
> We haven't got to the chi-sau bit yet, I'm still a beginner



I was told he got asked the question, 'how long is sufficient?' the answer was that there was no specific time frame, sometimes hours, sometimes minutes. Try and spend an hour doing the form 
And when doing repetition, 10,000 is the magic number.


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## zepedawingchun (Sep 12, 2011)

jimbo123 said:


> . . . . . 2. Fook-sau - the tension should be in the wrist. Keeping the wrist in the centre, the elbow is doing less work and just follows the wrist - like a train? . . . .



Some lineages do it a bit different.  There shouldn't be any tension in the tan/wu/fook sau hand movements.  It should be soft and flowing, no tension what so ever.


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## jimbo123 (Jan 18, 2014)

Hey guys, I just wondered about the wu sao again. Should I feel anything in my lat muscles when I draw it back?


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## mook jong man (Jan 18, 2014)

jimbo123 said:


> Hey guys, I just wondered about the wu sao again. *Should I feel anything in my lat muscles when I draw it back?*



Not really , not unless you are tense in that area.

As well as trying to relax the muscles of the arm , shoulders and chest , you should be trying to relax the muscles surrounding your spine including the lats.
At your stage it is probably best to pay particular attention to relaxing mainly your shoulder joint and chest.

You can use the fingers of your other hand to monitor the tension in your chest and shoulder as the fook sau and wu sau travel forward and back , try to keep the muscles as soft and relaxed as possible.

Using this method to monitor your lats might prove problematic , so you might have to get a partner to place their fingers on your lats as you do the movement and tell you if the muscle is becoming tense as you move fook sau and wu sau forward and back.


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## 6vior (Jan 19, 2014)

hello jimbo 123.
before all i say sorry for my english.

What do you mean about tension? 
In Wing chun there are 3 family of contact (TAN, WU,FOOK), the tension (the KI) is present in the contact zone of the wrist,and explodes when comes into contact with rival\partner.
both WU and FOOK stay in center line, this important is the contact zone, (wu is external wrist, and fook under wrist) in all case the elbow is like train push or pull the wrist.
you must practice all tecniques, and no only 99 WU and 100 fook. If you practice while you look tv, the excercise not good because you don't focus!
About the time of training, you think a bruce lee he's  training 6-8 hour everyday!

Salvatore


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## jimbo123 (Jan 19, 2014)

mook jong man said:


> Not really , not unless you are tense in that area.
> 
> As well as trying to relax the muscles of the arm , shoulders and chest , you should be trying to relax the muscles surrounding your spine including the lats.
> At your stage it is probably best to pay particular attention to relaxing mainly your shoulder joint and chest.
> ...



Okay got it! The reason I asked is because I've seen a classmate (someone who generally knows his stuff) doing the form and when drawing back the wu sao, his arm was shaking slightly and I think I saw his lat muscles contracting. I guess I should have done the social thing and asked my Sifu.


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## jimbo123 (Jan 19, 2014)

6vior said:


> hello jimbo 123.
> before all i say sorry for my english.
> 
> What do you mean about tension?
> In Wing chun there are 3 family of contact (TAN, WU,FOOK), the tension (the KI) is present in the contact zone of the wrist,and explodes when comes into contact with rival\partner.


Your english is fine! When you say explode, should I be contracting my hand when I change from fuk sao to wu sao? A very quick contraction like you see in the second section of the form?


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## mook jong man (Jan 19, 2014)

jimbo123 said:


> Okay got it! The reason I asked is because I've seen a classmate (someone who generally knows his stuff) doing the form and when drawing back the wu sao, his arm was shaking slightly and I think I saw his lat muscles contracting. I guess I should have done the social thing and asked my Sifu.



It depends on a few factors , how senior is the classmate ?
He might be performing the form to the best of his ability.
He might have done some exhaustive exercise such as weight training before doing the form , hence the shaking arm.

It could also be the case that in your lineage you might train the form as some type of dynamic tension exercise as some lineages do , if so , then it is correct for your lineage.
But in my lineage which some consider to be an internal method of Wing Chun training , we strive to relax as much as possible , not just the muscles , but the actual joints themselves.
The best thing to do would be to ask your Sifu exactly how it is supposed to be done.

One mistake a lot of novice students make is to equate relaxation with being floppy , it is not that at all , there still has to be alignment and structure in the movement and maintaining of correct angle.
In our lineage we sort of go by the words "Firm  but not tense , relaxed but not floppy" when training the form.


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## 6vior (Jan 20, 2014)

jimbo123 said:


> Your english is fine! When you say explode, should I be contracting my hand when I change from fuk sao to wu sao? A very quick contraction like you see in the second section of the form?



Thank you for the english  

You don't should be hard, but soft, if you are soft you are fast. You must exercise at the scatter elbow. A good exercise is do quickly: FOOK-TAN.WU. if this exercise it's done right, you hear the wind made with hand.

Salvatore


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## jimbo123 (Jan 21, 2014)

mook jong man said:


> It depends on a few factors , how senior is the classmate ?
> He might be performing the form to the best of his ability.
> He might have done some exhaustive exercise such as weight training before doing the form , hence the shaking arm.


He's not that much more senior than me but he's been training a while longer. It might be that he was nervous because he did it in front of the class.



> It could also be the case that in your lineage you might train the form as some type of dynamic tension exercise as some lineages do , if so , then it is correct for your lineage.


I'll have to ask my sifu. It might be the case though because he's said a few times that it should develop our forearms.


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## mook jong man (Jan 21, 2014)

jimbo123 said:


> He's not that much more senior than me but he's been training a while longer. It might be that he was nervous because he did it in front of the class.
> 
> 
> I'll have to ask my sifu. It might be the case though because he's said a few times *that it should develop our forearms.*



That could of been it then , a case of stage fright.

Doing Huen Sau correctly will definitely develop your forearms , but it has to be done properly with the hand flat through out the full range of movement in the wrist rotation.


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## wingchun100 (Mar 6, 2014)

jimbo123 said:


> I read somewhere that Ip Man used to do it for about an hour a day. My sifu said that it's good to do about 100 fook-sau and wu-saus but he never mentioned anything about time.
> 
> We haven't got to the chi-sau bit yet, I'm still a beginner



In my school we used to extend the three fook sao section for long periods of time, to the point where it was almost like meditation, but that meant we did those three fook saos VERY SLOWLY. It didn't mean we did more reps...just the same three, slowed down.


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