# Shadow Techniques



## Xander.2 (Mar 10, 2019)

So I've been practicing for my Hapkido testing today, like all the Kata's and stuff. But I was wondering if anyone here can practice their techniques alone. Kind of like shadow boxing, that's why I was calling them shadow techniques. So far I've been able to get the movements down but I don't know if it'll actually work or not... What are your thoughts on this?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 10, 2019)

I'm not sure for hapkido, but I've definitely found that I can practice throws and wrist locks in the air. Not as effective as against a person, obviously, but it still helps build the muscle memory. It can also help me think through something I'm having difficulty getting. You just have to spend more time making sure you're not making a mistake since there's no feedback.


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## Xander.2 (Mar 10, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> I'm not sure for hapkido, but I've definitely found that I can practice throws and wrist locks in the air. Not as effective as against a person, obviously, but it still helps build the muscle memory. It can also help me think through something I'm having difficulty getting. You just have to spend more time making sure you're not making a mistake since there's no feedback.


Ok thanks for the advice. It's just that there's this specific move that even if you go through the motions right it might not work on someone and it's really pissing me off.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 10, 2019)

Xander.2 said:


> Ok thanks for the advice. It's just that there's this specific move that even if you go through the motions right it might not work on someone and it's really pissing me off.


What's the move?


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## Xander.2 (Mar 10, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> What's the move?


I don't know the name of it, but it's from same hand cuff grab. You envelop their hand with your opposite hand, and with the hand that they grabbed you with you position your hand onto their wrist via a circular motion and then press down. I've got it to work a couple times before but it's the one move that's going to drag me down.


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## Headhunter (Mar 10, 2019)

Xander.2 said:


> I don't know the name of it, but it's from same hand cuff grab. You envelop their hand with your opposite hand, and with the hand that they grabbed you with you position your hand onto their wrist via a circular motion and then press down. I've got it to work a couple times before but it's the one move that's going to drag me down.


If you've got a grading coming up you should probably learn the name


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## Xander.2 (Mar 10, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> If you've got a grading coming up you should probably learn the name


My sensei doesn't know the name, we just call it "yellow belt technique number 1." Yeah I know it's bad but that's just the way it is.


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## JR 137 (Mar 10, 2019)

I’m pretty sure I know the move you’re thinking of. Cover their hand, turn your wrist over, then push straight down. 

I’m not a Korean MAist. No idea what it’s called in English nor Japanese. A lot of the kata bunkai guys say it’s in a lot of kata where you chamber one hand with the other on top of it. Also notably (for me anyway) found in Kanku Sho kata. At about :34 in when he turns, :46 when he’s facing forward, and near the end when he’s turned away again.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 10, 2019)

Xander.2 said:


> practice their techniques alone.





kempodisciple said:


> I can practice throws and wrist locks in the air.


The solo training (shadow technique) is partner training without partner. You can use solo training to "polish" your technique.

You can use:

- partner training to "develop" skill.
- sparring/wrestling to "test" skill.
- weight equipment to "enhance" skill.
- solo training to "polish" skill.


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## Xander.2 (Mar 10, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> I’m pretty sure I know the move you’re thinking of. Cover their hand, turn your wrist over, then push straight down.
> 
> I’m not a Korean MAist. No idea what it’s called in English nor Japanese. A lot of the kata bunkai guys say it’s in a lot of kata where you chamber one hand with the other on top of it. Also notably (for me anyway) found in Kanku Sho kata. At about :34 in when he turns, :46 when he’s facing forward, and near the end when he’s turned away again.


Yeah it looks like it



Kung Fu Wang said:


> The solo training (shadow technique) is partner training without partner. You can use solo training to "polish" your technique.
> 
> You can use:
> 
> ...


That's some pretty good advice, I never saw it that way.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 10, 2019)

Xander.2 said:


> My sensei doesn't know the name, we just call it "yellow belt technique number 1." Yeah I know it's bad but that's just the way it is.


There's nothing bad about that name...yes, in this case, that's the name you guys are using. A name is just a way to identify the technique, and in some systems the techniques are actually numbered (ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo). So the name may not be what others use, but that has no impact on your training (except that it's hard to ask for help on a forum).


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 10, 2019)

Xander.2 said:


> That's some pretty good advice, I never saw it that way.


The reason that the term "polish" is used because it's just like a rock that when it rolls down from the mountain top, that rock may have a lot of sharp edges. When it reaches to the bottom of the mountain, all those sharp edges will be gone and the rock is smooth.

The sole training cannot help you to develop any skill. It can only help you to make your technique more "smooth" if you have already developed it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 10, 2019)

To your original question, yes, you can "shadow" any movement. Just as a boxer could practice a bad transition in his shadow boxing, you could practice a bad lock in your shadow grappling. Shadow training is just practicing the movement you already know how to do. When I've been traveling a lot or had other reasons I couldn't train consistently with a training partner, I did a lot of shadow training to keep the movements trained, and to examine (using just my own memory and imagination) what transitions might be like from specific situations into different techniques. Then when I was with a training partner, I could examine anything I found interesting or odd in my shadow training.

I actually discourage students from shadow-training much on what they don't yet understand, because it can ingrain movement that will need to be unlearned. So, for you, work with a training partner and get the technique working properly before you try to practice it in your shadow training.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 10, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Shadow training is just practicing the movement you already know how to do.


Agree with you 100% there. If you have not "developed" any techniques yet, you will have nothing to "polish". Sometime, people go the other way around as solo form first and application later. I don't like that approach.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 10, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Agree with you 100% there. If you have not "developed" any techniques yet, you will have nothing to "polish". Sometime, people go the other way around as solo form first and application later. I don't like that approach.


Agreed. I've said before that I don't understand the approach of teaching a solo form, then the application from it, if the form is supposed to be used to learn specific techniques. Without knowing the techniques, you're learning a reasonably vague facsimile of the movement, and will likely take longer. The form is more useful, IMO, for practicing techniques that are already learned. The techniques need not be mastered, but the form is most effective if the technique comes first.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 10, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The reason that the term "polish" is used because it's just like a rock that when it rolls down from the mountain top, that rock may have a lot of sharp edges. When it reaches to the bottom of the mountain, all those sharp edges will be gone and the rock is smooth.
> 
> The sole training cannot help you to develop any skill. It can only help you to make your technique more "smooth" if you have already developed it.


I think the quote system got messed up, i wasnt the one that said the line you quoted.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 10, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> I think the quote system got messed up, i wasnt the one that said the line you quoted.


Sorry, that was an error.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 10, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I don't understand the approach of teaching a solo form, then the application from it, ...


If we look around, a

- Judo teacher will never teach a hip throw form and then teach the application later.
- swimmer coach will never teach how to swim on dry land and then get into water later.
- ...

What did traditional MA teaches solo form first and application later?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 10, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If we look around, a
> 
> - Judo teacher will never teach a hip throw form and then teach the application later.
> - swimmer coach will never teach how to swim on dry land and then get into water later.
> ...


There are actually swim coaches that teach how to swim on dry land first. Or teach you how to swim while holding the wall, or on a boogie board.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 10, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If we look around, a
> 
> - Judo teacher will never teach a hip throw form and then teach the application later.
> - swimmer coach will never teach how to swim on dry land and then get into water later.
> ...


I agree. The single-technique forms (what I call “classical forms”) are a different thing, and I wonder if this is the Japanese approach, and was applied to Okinawan forms. In Daito-Ryu (and NGA), there are single-technique forms used to introduce a technique. They are two-man forms, and are essentially the same as any beginning version used to teach a grappling technique (no resistance, easy access to the technique). So they are used as the starting point for a technique. If you use that same approach with the Okinawan forms, it reverses what I see as the appropriate pedagogical approach. 

That all assumes the Okinawan approach was ever the reverse, and that I’m right about the Japanese approach. I could be wrong on both counts.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 10, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> There are actually swim coaches that teach how to swim on dry land first. Or teach you how to swim while holding the wall, or on a boogie board.


I don’t understand the utility of the first one. The other two are actually learning footwork first, which is not uncommon.


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## skribs (Mar 11, 2019)

Xander.2 said:


> So I've been practicing for my Hapkido testing today, like all the Kata's and stuff. But I was wondering if anyone here can practice their techniques alone. Kind of like shadow boxing, that's why I was calling them shadow techniques. So far I've been able to get the movements down but I don't know if it'll actually work or not... What are your thoughts on this?



I think that Shadow Techniques is good for memorization, but you need to practice on people for application.  The good news is this means you can work on your memorization while you're doing shadow techniques, and then focus solely on application when you get together with a partner.

Now, when practicing with a partner, here is how I help them practice (phase by phase):

Basically do the technique for them so they know where I'm supposed to go
Let them have control so they make me go where I went in phase 1
Passively resist them to make sure they have the correct leverage points to continue to do what they did in Phase 2
Actively resist them if they mess up so that they can figure out what to do when Phase 3 doesn't work
Sparring, experimentation, and variation
By yourself, you can't move past Stage 1 or Stage 2.  But sometimes you still need to be there, to help with the muscle memory and memorization of your techniques.  Especially in a school like yours or mine, which just says "White Belt #8" instead of "Z Lock".  

Another way I've used it is to get myself out of trying to make the darn thing work, and get myself into the mindset of at least memorizing the steps I'm supposed to take in an ideal scenario.  I was in a group of 3 and got a lot of critiques on my technique from my Master.  After I applied those critiques, I broke off from the group and meditated by myself to ingrain those better into my memory.

I put off practicing the application, because if I focused on making them work, I might only remember one or two things.  This way I could remember them all (at least long enough to go home and write them down) and then I could come back next week and apply all of them.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 11, 2019)

skribs said:


> I think that Shadow Techniques is good for memorization, but you need to practice on people for application.  The good news is this means you can work on your memorization while you're doing shadow techniques, and then focus solely on application when you get together with a partner.
> 
> Now, when practicing with a partner, here is how I help them practice (phase by phase):
> 
> ...


I think backing up in that progression from time to time (as you did in your story) is part of the logical progression. Even when we have high competency at a technique, we'll occasionally want a highly cooperative partner so we can examine variations or nuances in the technique.


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## skribs (Mar 11, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I think backing up in that progression from time to time (as you did in your story) is part of the logical progression. Even when we have high competency at a technique, we'll occasionally want a highly cooperative partner so we can examine variations or nuances in the technique.



That's why Phase 5 has 3 different options.  Those three are done in any order:

Sparring - Use in a fighting scenario
Variation - Use in a self defense scenario (i.e. instead of applying Technique #5 from a wrist grab, apply it from a lapel grab or a punch).
Experimentation - This is where I go back to Phase 2 or 3 and try different things.
But sometimes, yeah, you get critiqued, and need to go back a phase (or several) to apply it.


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## Gweilo (Mar 12, 2019)

Xander.2 said:


> I don't know the name of it, but it's from same hand cuff grab. You envelop their hand with your opposite hand, and with the hand that they grabbed you with you position your hand onto their wrist via a circular motion and then press down. I've got it to work a couple times before but it's the one move that's going to drag me down.


Its been a few years since I trained in Hapkido, and quite a few more since yellow belt training, but the name of the wrist hold you discribed is called mirror wrist hold. It is a hold that needs to be practiced with a partner as you needs to get the wrist and elbow angles correct in order to apply the correct amount of pressure on the wrist radius and ulna.


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## oftheherd1 (Mar 21, 2019)

1st, as to names of techniques; most I know of in Korean simply say something of the order of 'snap kick to knee" or "snap kick to groin" or "side kick #1" or "side kick #2."  So if we in English say "sleeve grab defense #1" it may not be so different.

As to the technique you were trying to describe, it sounds like something where you would begin rotating your wrist under, around and over your opponent's hand as you grab the side of his hand to control it, as you step forward.  When you are over the back of his grabbing hand, you snap the hand down, spraining or breaking the wrist.  You can let go and get to other opponents or some other control technique against the opponent, such as continuing the grab of the opponent's hand, moving it to the rear of your body as you turn in to the elbow of that hand, striking it with your upper body/ upper arm, to dislocate/break the elbow.  Have you been taught the pressure point in the wrist as an alternative to the snap downward?

As to shadow movements, I agree with others that only after you really know the technique well, is it useful in maintaining the movements.

I hope you continue your journey in Hapkido.  It is a great art.


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## skribs (Mar 22, 2019)

oftheherd1 said:


> As to shadow movements, I agree with others that only after you really know the technique well, is it useful in maintaining the movements.


It's also useful for memorizing the gross movement while you are learning it, IMO.


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## oftheherd1 (Mar 24, 2019)

skribs said:


> It's also useful for memorizing the gross movement while you are learning it, IMO.



That is true as long as no intricate moves are missed along the way and there is difficulty in placing them in the proper place.  But in general I am in agreement with you statement as they probably wouldn't be too difficult to integrate back in with proper instructiion.


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## dvcochran (Mar 24, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I agree. The single-technique forms (what I call “classical forms”) are a different thing, and I wonder if this is the Japanese approach, and was applied to Okinawan forms. In Daito-Ryu (and NGA), there are single-technique forms used to introduce a technique. They are two-man forms, and are essentially the same as any beginning version used to teach a grappling technique (no resistance, easy access to the technique). So they are used as the starting point for a technique. If you use that same approach with the Okinawan forms, it reverses what I see as the appropriate pedagogical approach.
> 
> That all assumes the Okinawan approach was ever the reverse, and that I’m right about the Japanese approach. I could be wrong on both counts.


If you have any video, I would love to see an example of your two-man form. I wonder if it is the equivalent of Korean one-step drills.


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## skribs (Mar 24, 2019)

oftheherd1 said:


> That is true as long as no intricate moves are missed along the way and there is difficulty in placing them in the proper place.  But in general I am in agreement with you statement as they probably wouldn't be too difficult to integrate back in with proper instructiion.



I was stating what it's good for.  There's a lot of things it's not good for, and it isn't a replacement for practicing on a partner.  I was merely explaining how it can be effective practice, because people shouldn't have to only practice with a partner.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 25, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> If you have any video, I would love to see an example of your two-man form. I wonder if it is the equivalent of Korean one-step drills.


senseicarter on YouTube has posted several videos. You're looking for what he refers to as "Classical technique".


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## CKB (Apr 16, 2019)

In my experience (3rd dan in Hapkido, color belts in several other ju-jutsu derived arts), it is absolutely possible to get some benefit out of "shadow practice" of grappling techniques (and even pure visualisation), but I'm not sure how beneficial it is if you haven't trained the techniques in question quite a bit against live people first, and actually experienced how the technique "feels", and the differences in effect with all the small modifications as you are bound to do as you explore a new technique. 

Just keep in mind that "shadow practicing" a technique you don't know well enough could possibly result in comitting incorrect and ineffective body movement to muscle memory.


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## oftheherd1 (Apr 17, 2019)

Christian Bjørnsrud said:


> ...
> 
> Just keep in mind that "shadow practicing" a technique you don't know well enough could possibly result in comitting incorrect and ineffective body movement to muscle memory.



I have to agree with that.


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