# Kote Gaeshi



## Keikai (Feb 4, 2008)

I am interested in how different styles do Kote Gaeshi. More particuarly the exact mechanics of the how the lock is executed on the wrist. 

Is the wrist being twisted around an axis through the middle finger or an axis down the forearm? Many instances that I have seen rotate around the forearm. How is yours done?


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## Dale (Feb 5, 2008)

Same as yours! hahaha



Hope you are well, happy new year to you and your better half!


Dale


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## morph4me (Feb 5, 2008)

Keikai said:


> I am interested in how different styles do Kote Gaeshi. More particuarly the exact mechanics of the how the lock is executed on the wrist.
> 
> Is the wrist being twisted around an axis through the middle finger or an axis down the forearm? Many instances that I have seen rotate around the forearm. How is yours done?


 
It's a combination, I hold the hand to my center and turn my body and lay uke's little finger alongside the forearm along the radius.


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## cstanley (Feb 5, 2008)

Keikai said:


> I am interested in how different styles do Kote Gaeshi. More particuarly the exact mechanics of the how the lock is executed on the wrist.
> 
> Is the wrist being twisted around an axis through the middle finger or an axis down the forearm? Many instances that I have seen rotate around the forearm. How is yours done?


 
You can do it either way. Kote gaeshi is so generic that it is difficult to define it in just one way. Most jujutsu ryu tend to go for immediate pain in the wrist or forearm and drop the guy as quickly and as close as possible. Aikidoka use it along with mis-direction to set up a projection. The principle of kote gaeshi is employed in a dozen or more techniques (uchi mawari, shiho nage, te kugami, etc.)


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## Keikai (Feb 5, 2008)

Hi Dale

Get my email? Did you ever finish those notes on the pressure points?

We do a wrist twist with the rotation across the back of the hand. This leads to the attacker being driven virtually straight down onto their back. I have seen Kote Gaeshi done so the attacker basically jumps over their forearm because the rotation changes from the hand to along the forearm - hence the name Kote Gaeshi - Forearm Overturning. 

It certainly looks spectacular when done in Aikido but I wonder how much of a "throw" would happen when the attacker does not know how to fall. The technique would certainly take them to the ground but I doubt the nice flip.


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## cstanley (Feb 5, 2008)

Keikai said:


> Hi Dale
> 
> Get my email? Did you ever finish those notes on the pressure points?
> 
> ...


 
That's the point. The "flip" in aikido is to protect yourself from the wrist technique. I've often told aikido guys, who talk about peace and harmony and not hurting anybody, that if they did the techniques on someone in the street who did not know how to "flip" that person would be seriously injured.


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## morph4me (Feb 5, 2008)

cstanley said:


> That's the point. The "flip" in aikido is to protect yourself from the wrist technique. I've often told aikido guys, who talk about peace and harmony and not hurting anybody, that if they did the techniques on someone in the street who did not know how to "flip" that person would be seriously injured.


 
Agreed, the techniques of aikido are designed to break and/or dislocate joints. The reason you see the flips and nice falls is because uke is protecting himself. Kote Gaeshi will break the wrist of someone who doesn't go with it and know how to fall properly.


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## cstanley (Feb 5, 2008)

morph4me said:


> Agreed, the techniques of aikido are designed to break and/or dislocate joints. The reason you see the flips and nice falls is because uke is protecting himself. Kote Gaeshi will break the wrist of someone who doesn't go with it and know how to fall properly.


 
I have a friend who is a senior in aikido under Kanai Sensei. I asked him once, "What is the simplest way to explain the difference between aikido and jujutsu?" He thought for a minute and said, "If you want to do jujutsu, just do everything your aikido instructor tells you not to do."


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## MarkBarlow (Feb 5, 2008)

We've got 3 different ways of doing kote gaeshi in Akayama Ryu and lots of variations including small circle and large circle.  The opportunity to use it may not happen as often as some instructors think but when it's used correctly, it's very effective, especially against someone who tries to resist it.


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## Keikai (Feb 5, 2008)

You look to have much the same opinion of the technique as myself. effective but not in the way that it is trained. I tend to think of Kote Gaeshi as the takedown version of our Tekubi Hineri - wrist twist. If I drive through the lock and let it go so the attacker is driven to the ground without retaining the lock as an immobilisation.

While Tekubi Hineri and Kote Gaeshi start the same and the hand position is the same on the attacker's hand the end of the technique is different. 

The main point I am trying to establish is what axis of rotation do you all use when doing what refer to as Kote Gaeshi. Some schools refer to Kote Gaeshi when rotating around the axis through the hand (to me a wrist twist) and others have the axis through the length of the forearm. A number of ju jutsu schools use the Aikido terminology Kote Gaeshi for a wrsit twist but are in fact doing a full wrist twist.


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## Yari (Feb 6, 2008)

We do a lot of different variations in the Jujitsu and Aikido styles that I practice.

The twist of the hand, with the middel finger as an axsis to using bending the wrist and twisting. Even in these you can choose to use open hands or close your hand around ukes hand/fingers.

Another difference, is either "pulling" the kotegaeshi or psuhing the kotegaeshi. Really depending on what I want to  happen to uke.


/yari


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## theletch1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Ikkyo and Sankyo combined, ah, the pain.:fanboy:  I generally think of it in it's most basic form as using the middle finger as the axis on an imaginary circle through uke's wrist all the way around and back up into my center.  I never really think of kote gaeshi as an immobilization.  I tend to think of it as a quick and efficient way to mete out a spiral fracture of the wrist and a nice little dislocation of the elbow.  Keeping the wrist centered at your hara (As pointed out by Morph) makes this technique absolutely devastating.  Me, I'm a little evil (how's that for an aikido-ka) and always like to have a little extra trick for those folks with really gumby like wrists.  As you roll the hand over for kote gaeshi maintain the grip with the outside hand and reach under uke's forearm with the hand closest to his elbow and turn it into a combination of kote gaeshi and shiho nage.


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## cstanley (Feb 6, 2008)

We use a technique from Hakko ryu called "uchi mawari." You get to it in one of several ways like Sankyo. Grasping the back of uke's hand with your hand with the last 3 fingers holding the meaty part of his hand below the little finger and the thumb on the knuckle of his pinkie. We do not force the elbow upward as in sankyo. We rotate his forearm toward his body while bending the wrist upward and inward so that our index finger points towards his armpit. We step away slightly in order to keep a nice bow in his arm at about shoulder level. This is extremely painful if done properly. From here it is very easy to move to one of several throws or takedowns, often niho nage or some kind of "arm whip."


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## theletch1 (Feb 6, 2008)

cstanley said:


> We use a technique from Hakko ryu called "uchi mawari." You get to it in one of several ways like Sankyo. Grasping the back of uke's hand with your hand with the last 3 fingers holding the meaty part of his hand below the little finger and the thumb on the knuckle of his pinkie. We do not force the elbow upward as in sankyo. We rotate his forearm toward his body while bending the wrist upward and inward so that our index finger points towards his armpit. We step away slightly in order to keep a nice bow in his arm at about shoulder level. This is extremely painful if done properly. From here it is very easy to move to one of several throws or takedowns, often niho nage or some kind of "arm whip."


Sounds very much like the technique we call "Handshake" in Nihon Goshin Aikido.  It's downright brutal but very controlable.  Throws, takedowns, locks can all flow from that one and you can still keep uke in pain while flowing from one to the other.


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## Keikai (Feb 6, 2008)

Up until recently I always considered the axis of rotation for a wrist twist to be along the middle finger. It is I believe a little more subtle than that. 

For a wrist twist to work well there are four points to note.
1) The wrist is bent at a right angle to the forearm
2) The hand is tilted around 10 degrees off the vertical
3) The defender's hands are placed so that one pulls on the thumb side of the attacker's hand with most of the force being applied with the last two fingers at the base of the thumb at the wrist join. The other hand applies a pushing force to the area just below the knuckles of the ring and little fingers. This can be done in a number of ways including open hand and forearm pushing
4) The axis of rotation is then along a line from the knuckle of the index finger to the wrist join.

The plane of the rotation is then angle sharply to the ground and the attacker has no place to go but down and down hard.

Once the attacker is unbalanced not much goes wrong but for those annoying times there is always the methods previously described to deal with the attacker's reluctance to be co-operative and just get hurt.


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## Mark Jakabcsin (Mar 27, 2008)

IMO, if you want to know if Kote Gaeshi is effective look at the effect on uke's knees. When done with 3 dimensional, circular rotation with minimal power from the hips, uke's knees buckle and collapse. Likewise, in my opinion and in my definition, if uke has the ability/option to 'flip' out of the technique it has not been accomplished correctly. Period!

One of the keys to any joint technique is understanding when it is available to apply. Attempt to apply a joint technique when the posture has not been disturbed or disturbed in the wrong direction and it will fail every time....unless uke is trained to 'flip' no matter what. 

Mark J.


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## Yari (Mar 28, 2008)

Mark Jakabcsin said:


> ..., if uke has the ability/option to 'flip' out of the technique it has not been accomplished correctly. Period!.....
> Mark J.


 
Could you elaborate on this?

/Yari


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## kempo-vjj (Mar 28, 2008)

Anybody use this for striking? As in place wrist into locking position and then punching that hand while in lock? truelly nasty destruction. Yes the takedowns are pretty, some submissions if your lucky to find them. Depending on the situation I find snapping and moving on better for self defense.


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## Darth F.Takeda (Mar 28, 2008)

kempo-vjj said:


> Anybody use this for striking? As in place wrist into locking position and then punching that hand while in lock? truelly nasty destruction. Yes the takedowns are pretty, some submissions if your lucky to find them. Depending on the situation I find snapping and moving on better for self defense.


 
 We have a varient where you look on the Kote Giash and then hit it with a shuto strike, but you can snap the wrist without the strike.

 You can also set up knock outs with kotegiash.
When you put it on but dont snap through, the uke tends to lean to that side, this angle improves your knock out ability. Kotegiash and shoto the carted or back fist the temple  and they go out like a light.

 I like compound Kote Giash he most for wrist destruction.


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## Mark Jakabcsin (Mar 31, 2008)

Yari said:


> Could you elaborate on this?
> 
> /Yari


 

Kinda hard to do the topic justice via a forum but I'll give it a go.

When doing the lock in a three dimensional circular motion the knees of uke, particularly the knee on the same side as the wrist being locked, comes forward and down very harshly. (There is more than just the knee but too much for words.) This motion makes doing a flip impossible, the body simply cannot go that direction, unless tori relents and allows the flip to happen. 

IMO, the technique changed over time to allow the flip to happen for safer training, not effectiveness. Unfortunately there are not many that know how to properly manipulate the wrist. Heck there are not that many folks that understand which direction uke's balance must be disturbed in to successfully apply the lock.

Take care,

Mark J.


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## Yari (Apr 1, 2008)

Mark Jakabcsin said:


> Kinda hard to do the topic justice via a forum but I'll give it a go.


 
I agree...



> When doing the lock in a three dimensional circular motion the knees of uke, particularly the knee on the same side as the wrist being locked, comes forward and down very harshly.


 
When I try and visualise this i get the picture that  your "pushing" the fingers into his arm.

/Yari


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## morph4me (Apr 1, 2008)

Mark Jakabcsin said:


> Kinda hard to do the topic justice via a forum but I'll give it a go.
> 
> When doing the lock in a three dimensional circular motion the knees of uke, particularly the knee on the same side as the wrist being locked, comes forward and down very harshly. (There is more than just the knee but too much for words.) This motion makes doing a flip impossible, the body simply cannot go that direction, unless tori relents and allows the flip to happen.
> 
> ...


 
Very true, I've ben thrown where the only thing that helped was that Nage was kind enough to slowed down enough to allow me to straighten my knee slightly and sit, sort of.  I haven't seen this type of Kotegaeshi in too many aikido dojo's as it's usually the result of a small action and not the sweeping arm that you see most often.


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## Mark Jakabcsin (Apr 1, 2008)

Yari said:


> When I try and visualise this i get the picture that your "pushing" the fingers into his arm.
> 
> /Yari


 
No, not pushing into the arm. 

Visualize the hand, uke's, as a ball with the wrist on one side of the ball and the knuckles as the other end of a ball and a very finite point in the palm is the center of the ball. Now the ball is rotated around the center so the center point does not move in relation to uke/tori but the edges of the ball (wrist/knuckles) rotate around the center point. This is good circular motion and the smaller the better, meaning if the center point moves in space the circular motion becomes oval at best and most likely linear, it reduces the affect. The tighter the circle (think and feel three dimensional here) the better. 

Another way to describe this is to think of tori's hands on the outside of the ball described above with the ring finger(s) in uke's wrist and the thumb(s) on uke's ring finger knuckle (shortest tendon on this finger so it reduces the amount of slack). Now keeping the ball in one place rotate it so the edges of the ball change places, i.e. the thumb rotates across the top of the ball then goes down and under while the ring finger rotates towards tori and up until then continues up around the ball and back towards uke. Notice that the thumb and ring fingers are 180 degrees out of phase. As one is going up the other is going down but the center remains the same. Visualize how such a motion transmits into uke's body (think basic geometry here).

Now to make it more verbally challenging; as you do this three dimensional circle do not do it straight back into ukes forearm/elbow but at an angle (about 30-45 degrees) to the outside of the forearm. If you can follow this description the affect on uke's ankle, knee, hip, shoulder, elbow, etc are rather profound. Remember to keep the circle small (Not the big motion morph4me mentioned). 

Finally, joint locks such as kote gaeshi are to exploit a balance distrubance not to create one. Understanding this is key in being able to actually apply locks to non-compliant uke's. That and knowing which locks match each direction of balance distrubance.

Enjoy,

Mark J.

PS. One last hint. Tori, should never squeeze his hands. The hand should be in a comfortable 'C' shape throughout the technique, which mantains the correct shapes needed above and allows tori's arms to stay relaxed. Once tori squeezes his hands the shapes (ball & circles) are lost and the tension in tori's arms make it very difficult to move properly. The power comes from the hips. Although to be honest if applied with the correct balance distrubance it takes a minimum amount of power.


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## Yari (Apr 2, 2008)

Hey

Thanks!

/Yari


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## theletch1 (Apr 2, 2008)

Seems like the closer to nages' hara the technique is done the greater the possibility of doing it that way.  When you allow uke to drift away from you just a little and end up doing the technique with your arms slightly extended from your own body you almost have to go with the slightly oval motion to make the throw effective.  If your elbows are tight to your sides and the back of ukes' hand is right up against your obi then the motion needed to effect the type of "drop" you're talking about just seems to happen.  Having said all that I'll say that I've always seen it as more of ukes' feet just flying out from under him with, perhaps, a slight drop of the hip on the side that the throw is being done on.


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## zDom (Apr 4, 2008)

Mark Jakabcsin said:


> ... in my opinion and in my definition, if uke has the ability/option to 'flip' out of the technique it has not been accomplished correctly. Period!



I'm thinking the late GGM Lee Hyung Park, who established our hapkido curriculum, believed the same thing as we don't "flip" out of this particular technique as uke; we tap out.


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## Saitama Steve (May 10, 2008)

In one of the ryuha of jujutsu I train in, kote gaeshi is done in two seperate methods. These methods are related to situation, garments worn and other factors.

The concept taught to me for kote gaeshi in Japan was the "chain principle", pretty much like the old "Dem bones" song: wrist to forearm, forearm to elbow, elbow to upper arm, upper arm to shoulder, shoulder to shoulderblade. 

If the wrist is manipulated at the correct angle, locking the joints, muscles, tendons and ligaments, the arm acts like a chain that has been twisted too many times and there is no more flexibility to it. 

As with aikido there is an irimi (Linear & entering) method and a kaiten (rotational) method (We don't really use these terms officially, but they are sometimes used in the dojo) that are used both defensively and offensively (torite type techniques, where you use offensive tactics to either subdue an assailant or ambush an enemy) 

One of the main points is to always have the joint manipulated and pointing to the rear of the enemy, never just to the side or in front of him.

In kata-geiko, there are a couple of instances where it is used. In jiyu-geiko, it's utilized from anything - lapel grabs, wrist grabs, hair grabs, throat grabs, etc. Anything to develop nyunanshin (A pliable or flexible mind).

Nigirigata (gripping method) varies from ryuha to ryuha in koryu jujutsu. The same goes for aikido. One of the more orthodox methods of gripping for kote is to wrap the fingers around the meaty part of the thumb side of the hand and put the thumb along the line between the knuckles of the ring finger and little finger, followed by using the palm of the other hand to either strike the back of the gripped hand at the knuckles or apply pressure, depending upon application. 








Yoshinkan Aikido Instructional Video on Kote-Gaeshi in Japanese

Aikikai Instructional Video on Kote-Gaeshi with Ueshiba Moriteru

Other gripping methods are sometimes used in jujutsu and related forms of budo (e.g. Kodokan Judo). A common variant is having the four fingers of each hand around the meat of the enemy's thumb and palm of the hand with both thumbs on the carpal bone leading up to the middle finger. 


Click on link to see photo of this gripping method.


A more destructive version I have seen and felt before is where the orthodox grip is taken as in Aikikai aikido (Thumb in between the carpal bones of the little and ring finger with the fingers around the meat of the thumb) while using the forearm and elbow across the wrist. 

Yet another variation found in classical jujutsu is kashiwade kote gaeshi, but this is usually done from a wristgrab as a tenuki or tehodoki (Releasing from grabs)

In koryu jujutsu, almost every ryuha has a particular way of doing certain techniques that is individual to them. Sometimes the technique is done in such a way, that a large aerial ukemi as performed in aikido cannot be done.


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## orang_baik (May 22, 2008)

for multiple kote gaeshi i think you should get that from shorinji kempo instead.
<SOL>


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## Saitama Steve (May 22, 2008)

orang_baik said:


> for multiple kote gaeshi i think you should get that from shorinji kempo instead.
> <SOL>


 
You'll find a good number of variations in Shorinji kempo, however most of these also exist in aikido and in koryu jujutsu. 

In fact, according to a lecturer at Tokai University Busen, So-Doshin, the founder of SK, studied Hakko-ryu jujutsu under Oyukama Ryuho and reached the rank of nidan before founding SK. Other texts also mention this. 

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=81

At the end of the day, there are only so many ways to twist, turn and manipulate the joints of the human body regardless of the form of martial art. Since this is a jujutsu thread, we're focusing on jujutsu.


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## orang_baik (May 23, 2008)

Agreed...

Hakko ryu is from Daito Ryu consists many wrist lock technique (sometimes even more painful than jujutsu itself)


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## Saitama Steve (May 23, 2008)

orang_baik said:


> Agreed...
> 
> Hakko ryu is from Daito Ryu consists many wrist lock technique (sometimes even more painful than jujutsu itself)


 
Well seeing as Daito-ryu and Hakko-ryu are actually forms of jujutsu, (albeit Takeda Sokaku decided to coin his system "aikijujutsu") it's rather a moot point.


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## theletch1 (May 23, 2008)

Saitama Steve said:


> Well seeing as Daito-ryu and Hakko-ryu are actually forms of jujutsu, (albeit Takeda Sokaku decided to coin his system "aikijujutsu") it's rather a moot point.


How does it become a moot point?  Because they are both branches of the same parent art?


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## Saitama Steve (May 23, 2008)

theletch1 said:


> How does it become a moot point? Because they are both branches of the same parent art?


 
Because it's all jujutsu at the end of the day. Different schools have different interpretations is all.


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## orang_baik (May 24, 2008)

i've learnt jujutsu and aikijujutsu

from my opinion there is different feeling when u train both of them

jujutsu is more like technical
while aikijujutsu is more like philosophical


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## Saitama Steve (May 24, 2008)

orang_baik said:


> i've learnt jujutsu and aikijujutsu
> 
> from my opinion there is different feeling when u train both of them
> 
> ...


 
I have studied both disciplines also. 

Both are very technical and both also have a stong philosophical basis. Of course this depends on the system you have studied.


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