# Good Kenpo



## MJS (Sep 29, 2008)

Many newbies to the arts, may not know what to look for when it comes to finding a good instructor.  Some just go in blind, others do their homework and some find a teacher, but after training for a while, talking to others, etc., soon realize that what they're training in really isn't as good as some other things out there, so their eyes are opened, and they move on to something else.

This question isn't so much from the beginners point of view, but for those who've been around a while.  How can you tell if what you're looking at is good or bad Kenpo?  What do you base your views on when you're watching a Kenpo instructor?


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## Twin Fist (Sep 29, 2008)

first thing i always do when I meet a kenpo BB. Ask them to trace thier lineage back to Chow.

if they cant do that.....

oh, and if thier lineage mentions the name "Villari"............


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## stickarts (Sep 29, 2008)

There should be a logical explaination behind what is being taught. Looking back, I am amazed at some of the explainations I was given at my early training days!


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## JTKenpo (Sep 29, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> first thing i always do when I meet a kenpo BB. Ask them to trace thier lineage back to Chow.
> 
> if they cant do that.....
> 
> oh, and if thier lineage mentions the name "Villari"............


 

What does lineage have to do with skill?  Trust me i understand what you are saying and we don't need to start another of those threads.  But do you honestly believe that every one Mr. Parker, Tracy, Emperado, Chow, Mitose trained turned out to be of great importance to Kempo today?  In the same turn do you truely believe that everyone Pesare, Cerio, and Villari trained is someone who can't fight their way out of a paper bag?


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## marlon (Sep 29, 2008)

I am not sure if i meet the qualifications to answer this question, but these are my two cents:  i ask how long have you been training?  and who is your instructor?  Who is your instructors instructor?  these three questions are really important, imho, and can tell quite a bit, although not everything
 also, do they train with contact and how much..good kempo is up close and personal on both ends of the training
marlon


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## celtic_crippler (Sep 29, 2008)

Solid basics.


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## Danjo (Sep 29, 2008)

Research gives you a place to start by narrowing the field of potential teachers. After that, go in and see what the workouts are like, pricing etc. Do they insist on long-term contracts etc.

If it looks like something you could master in six months, go somewhere else.

But beware of the "Grass is Greener" syndrome. Once the bloom is off the rose with what you've started studying (that is when the hard work replaces the initial awestruck feelings, and that initial rapid improvement has given way to slow, barely noticable progress), other arts can look pretty good to you when you see them in magazines or video. It isn't always the case and hopping around trying to find that "perfect" art to study isn't the best idea.


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## RevIV (Sep 29, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> first thing i always do when I meet a kenpo BB. Ask them to trace thier lineage back to Chow.
> 
> if they cant do that.....
> 
> oh, and if thier lineage mentions the name "Villari"............


 
i Guess im not qaulified--  Be wary of the teachers that generalize everything and think they know everything


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## DavidCC (Sep 29, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> first thing i always do when I meet a kenpo BB. Ask them to trace thier lineage back to Chow.
> 
> if they cant do that.....


 
If they spend more time talking about "lineage" than about what and how they teach, that's a red flag.


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## John Bishop (Sep 29, 2008)

DavidCC said:


> If they spend more time talking about "lineage" than about what and how they teach, that's a red flag.



Yea, a lot of guys go out of their way to hop, skip, and jump to more desirable lineages.  There's a lot of people who claim to be students of instructors who live several thousands of miles from them.  I don't know how much serious training a instructor gets from a few days a year visiting his instructor, or from phone calls and emails.


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## kidswarrior (Sep 29, 2008)

Call me crazy, but I don't care what he says. I just want to see how he moves. Then I run that observation through my prior real-world experience, and if it seems to me his stuff would work, I'm good with it.


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## MJS (Sep 29, 2008)

stickarts said:


> There should be a logical explaination behind what is being taught. Looking back, I am amazed at some of the explainations I was given at my early training days!


 
Yes sir, how I can relate to that one.   I think if you and I sat down, we'd be able to write up quite the novel on some of our explainations. LOL!


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## Twin Fist (Sep 29, 2008)

Not knowing your lineage is one of my pet peeves. Kenpo History is so robust, and so RECENT that I think every descendant of Chow should know it. There is no excuse not to, since it is all out there.

Plus, if i know thier lineage , it gives me a better idea what thier kenpo SHOULD look like.

But, since i think you are wanting a technical judgment of "good kenpo" I will go with "do thier techniques FLOW in a logical method, demonstrating good self defense principals."


oh, and the Villari thing? that was a joke, my emoticon didnt show up. Sorry. And now it wont let me edit it....







JTKenpo said:


> What does lineage have to do with skill?  Trust me i understand what you are saying and we don't need to start another of those threads.  But do you honestly believe that every one Mr. Parker, Tracy, Emperado, Chow, Mitose trained turned out to be of great importance to Kempo today?  In the same turn do you truely believe that everyone Pesare, Cerio, and Villari trained is someone who can't fight their way out of a paper bag?


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## HKphooey (Sep 29, 2008)

celtic_crippler said:


> Solid basics.


 
Agreed and I will take it one step further...

Great stances!


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## kidswarrior (Sep 29, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> oh, and the Villari thing? that was a joke, my emoticon didnt show up. Sorry. And now it wont let me edit it....


Oh, man, that's the worst feeling in the world. :uhyeah:

Kinda like having the in-laws over, and the dog starts letting go with the *silent but deadlies*, but everyone's looking at _you_. :uhohh:


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## Twin Fist (Sep 29, 2008)

DUDE!!
that happened to me once


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## Danjo (Sep 30, 2008)

There is no art that teaches itself. They all require a good instructor. I would rather train under an excellent TKD instructor than a crappy Kyokushinkai instructor. The first and most important thing you need to look at is the instructor. We all know that there are good fighters from every system out there. We also know that even a lousy instructor can have one talented student that makes him look good despite his lack of ability to teach. But when someone consistantly puts out good solid students, then you know you've found the right person. I'm not saying that all his students will be Bill Wallace or Joe Lewis etc., but if you visit enough schools, you'll get a feel for who's good and who's not. If you are fortunate enough to live near more than one good instructor, then you can look at the style that suits you the best (and other factors like cost etc.) to make your choice.


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## Twin Fist (Sep 30, 2008)

there you go being logical again.......


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## 14 Kempo (Sep 30, 2008)

I believe that we should all abstain from using 'blanket statements' such as; anybody with Villari in his/her lineage; anybody with an instructor that lives thousands of miles away, etc. Why? Cause as Dan stated, there is the chance that there are good fighters under bad instructors, for one. Another point is that although some business practices may be questionable, that does not mean the person can't teach. Now for the distance comment, well I agree with this statement in part, definately for someone of my rank. I need continued training. But to make that statement for all is just wrong. Mr. Bishop, no disrespect meant here whatsoever, but where is your instructor? (no need to really answer this question, just making a point) Are you not one of the top ranking Kaju guys in CA and the world for that matter. Do you live near your instructor? I doubt it, but no need, the point is, once a person reaches a certain level, I would not expect that they need to be living in the vicinity of their instructor. Your student, Dan, makes a great point. Look at the instructor, look at and talk to his/her students. If something doesn't seem right, either make the choice to not return, or do a little research and see if what was said holds true. If you aren't comfortable with an instructor, I suggest you move on, simple as that. JMHO


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## Danjo (Sep 30, 2008)

14 Kempo said:


> I believe that we should all abstain from using 'blanket statements' such as; anybody with Villari in his/her lineage; anybody with an instructor that lives thousands of miles away, etc. Why? Cause as Dan stated, there is the chance that there are good fighters under bad instructors, for one. Another point is that although some business practices may be questionable, that does not mean the person can't teach. Now for the distance comment, well I agree with this statement in part, definately for someone of my rank. I need continued training. But to make that statement for all is just wrong. Mr. Bishop, no disrespect meant here whatsoever, but where is your instructor? (no need to really answer this question, just making a point) Are you not one of the top ranking Kaju guys in CA and the world for that matter. Do you live near your instructor? I doubt it, but no need, the point is, once a person reaches a certain level, I would not expect that they need to be living in the vicinity of their instructor. Your student, Dan, makes a great point. Look at the instructor, look at and talk to his/her students. If something doesn't seem right, either make the choice to not return, or do a little research and see if what was said holds true. If you aren't comfortable with an instructor, I suggest you move on, simple as that. JMHO


 
Actually I agree with John Bishop about distance training as we've had this discussion many times. I've even started threads here about it and my negative experiences with it. I don't see how one could learn anything significant from a distance, expecially at the lower ranks given that everything is built upon basics and there is no way to get solid basics if there is no instructor there to correct you.

Although he can speak for himself, I do know that John sees his instructor Gm Forbach,  pretty much every week since he only lives about an hour away.


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## John Bishop (Sep 30, 2008)

14 Kempo said:


> Now for the distance comment, well I agree with this statement in part, definately for someone of my rank. I need continued training. But to make that statement for all is just wrong. Mr. Bishop, no disrespect meant here whatsoever, but where is your instructor? (no need to really answer this question, just making a point) Are you not one of the top ranking Kaju guys in CA and the world for that matter. Do you live near your instructor? I doubt it, but no need, the point is, once a person reaches a certain level, I would not expect that they need to be living in the vicinity of their instructor.



My instructor since 1991 is Gary Forbach.  He lives in Costa Mesa, Ca., and I live in Chino, Ca.  We are about 35 miles apart, which in So. Cal is a pretty normal daily commute for most people. My instructor prior to him is about 2 miles from my house.  
Yes, I am a 8th degree black belt in our system, but I still feel a need to have a active student/teacher relationship with a instructor that has knowledge and wisdom to pass on to me.  
To me being a active lifetime student is just as important as being a lifetime instructor.  That's why I feel the way I do about long distance student/teacher relationships.  
Now if the long distance relationship is because life's circumstances has caused a longtime student and teacher to become geographically separated, then I see no problem with that.  But in my case I would request that my student seek out a good instructor in his/her area to continue their technical growth in the arts.
If someone has a long distance connection with a instructor who they have really never had a long term "on the mat" relationship with, I have to question the purpose of the relationship.  Since there is no long term face to face training being done, is the relationship just for promotions or to use the prestige of the connection?


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## 14 Kempo (Sep 30, 2008)

Danjo said:


> Actually I agree with John Bishop about distance training as we've had this discussion many times. I've even started threads here about it and my negative experiences with it. I don't see how one could learn anything significant from a distance, expecially at the lower ranks given that everything is built upon basics and there is no way to get solid basics if there is no instructor there to correct you.
> 
> Although he can speak for himself, I do know that John sees his instructor Gm Forbach, pretty much every week since he only lives about an hour away.


 

I agree totally, at the lower ranks, below master level and I also see Mr. Bishop's point and he's lucky that, at his level, he is able to have that higher ranking person available.


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## 14 Kempo (Sep 30, 2008)

John Bishop said:


> My instructor since 1991 is Gary Forbach. He lives in Costa Mesa, Ca., and I live in Chino, Ca. We are about 35 miles apart, which in So. Cal is a pretty normal daily commute for most people. My instructor prior to him is about 2 miles from my house.
> Yes, I am a 8th degree black belt in our system, but I still feel a need to have a active student/teacher relationship with a instructor that has knowledge and wisdom to pass on to me.
> To me being a active lifetime student is just as important as being a lifetime instructor. That's why I feel the way I do about long distance student/teacher relationships.
> Now if the long distance relationship is because life's circumstances has caused a longtime student and teacher to become geographically separated, then I see no problem with that. But in my case I would request that my student seek out a good instructor in his/her area to continue their technical growth in the arts.
> If someone has a long distance connection with a instructor who they have really never had a long term "on the mat" relationship with, I have to question the purpose of the relationship. Since there is no long term face to face training being done, is the relationship just for promotions or to use the prestige of the connection?


 
Very lucky you are, at your rank to have a higher ranking person that close, that's fantastic ... not always is that available. Only point I was trying to make is that it is not viable as a blanket statement, there are circumstances where high ranking persons, such as yourself, could function at a high level without being next door to their instructor ... not the best situation, but can be done. 

Now, at my level, it would be totally absurd to think I didn't need constant training or could learn via tape or phone discussions.


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## John Bishop (Sep 30, 2008)

14 Kempo said:


> Very lucky you are, at your rank to have a higher ranking person that close, that's fantastic ... not always is that available. Only point I was trying to make is that it is not viable as a blanket statement, there are circumstances where high ranking persons, such as yourself, could function at a high level without being next door to their instructor ... not the best situation, but can be done.
> 
> Now, at my level, it would be totally absurd to think I didn't need constant training or could learn via tape or phone discussions.




Actually, in So.Cal it's not hard to find high ranking high quality Kenpo or Kajukenbo instructors.  Some of the top EPAK instructors in the world are here, and I can think of at least 6-7 Kajukenbo 9th degrees within a hours drive of me.


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## 14 Kempo (Sep 30, 2008)

John Bishop said:


> Actually, in So.Cal it's not hard to find high ranking high quality Kenpo or Kajukenbo instructors. Some of the top EPAK instructors in the world are here, and I can think of at least 6-7 Kajukenbo 9th degrees within a hours drive of me.


 
OK, you're right, I'm wrong


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## John Bishop (Sep 30, 2008)

14 Kempo said:


> OK, you're right, I'm wrong



Some discussions are done better face to face.  I'm getting the feeling that your taking this discussion as something negative between you and me.  If that is the case, I apologize for the misunderstanding.    
To me it's not about either one of us being right or wrong.  We're both giving our opinions on the topic, and reasons those opinions are based on. 
I really don't know you or your training circumstances.  So nothing I wrote was directed at your personal situation, whatever it may be.  I was just expressing my joy that being in So. Cal, I or anyone here has the good fortune to have so many good Kenpo and Kajukenbo instructors in the area.


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## 14 Kempo (Sep 30, 2008)

John Bishop said:


> Some discussions are done better face to face. I'm getting the feeling that your taking this discussion as something negative between you and me. If that is the case, I apologize for the misunderstanding.
> To me it's not about either one of us being right or wrong. We're both giving our opinions on the topic, and reasons those opinions are based on.
> I really don't know you or your training circumstances. So nothing I wrote was directed at your personal situation, whatever it may be. I was just expressing my joy that being in So. Cal, I or anyone here has the good fortune to have so many good Kenpo and Kajukenbo instructors in the area.


 
No problem between you and I, and I didn't take it personally. I just have a different point of view, which is not a bad thing. I agree, having an instructor within range is the ultimate and yes, we have lots of options here in SoCal, we are lucky.


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## marlon (Sep 30, 2008)

I think it is both great and it sucks that so many top ken/mpo people and kajukenbo people are inSo,Cal.  I am in Canada and my instructor is in Long Island.  If i were single and without my children (Gd forbid) then i would move.  However, being this far away forces me to acquire new material at a slower pace.  Therefore i  can focus on assimilating things better and constantly sharpening my basics and learning / going deeper into the material i already have from white to where i am now.  it works well for me.  i tell my students all the time that any advancement i have is due to them, because i make sure to learn and have an instructor in order for me to be comfortable teaching.  otherwise i would stick with what i already have and work on it..it is certainly enough.  I agree that at lower levels of experience, learning from a distance is not ideal and certainly ranking by video...for money....is well...for money.  Considering my circumstances i think the best thing is to travel for quality instruction and not settle for what is convienient.  Does it slow your advancenment yes, can your skill be increased, yes.  It depends on your training.
training is truth

respectfully,
Marlon


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