# Saw a cop's duty belt today that's gonna give me nightmares....



## Andy Moynihan (Dec 17, 2009)

So I'm sat down at my favorite lunchtime haunt just next door from my place of employment, and while I'm eating, A young LEO walks in to pick up an order of his own.

He must've been just out of Academy, could not have been older than at most 21, 22. 

Being a firearms instructor, and carry permit holder, and thus possesssing a semiprofessional interest in such things, my eyes wander to his duty belt/holster, since whenever a law enforcement agency looks at something, so do I.

I thought I must have seen wrong at first, but a straightening press of the finger on my spectacles confirms it:

An absolute recipe for disaster.

Why?

Three things.

1) His sidearm is a fullsize Glock, either the model 17 (9mm) or 22 (.40 cal).Probably the .40 as that's the most common US cop caliber. For those of you unfamiliar with such matters, all of the Glock's safety features are internal, such that negligent/accidental discharges can virtually only occur by user error, but it has no externally activated measures, such as an external safety lever, or magazine disconect, such as would aid in foiling a snatch attempt. This is not *necessarily* a bad thing in and of itself provided one has an appropriate holster.

2) Only this kid most emphatically did not. It looked to me as if he had put a concealment holster on a duty rig: The holster was OPEN TOPPED, didn't even cover the rear sights, and had NO RETENTION STRAP, not even the merest thumb break. The trigger was covered, but if there was a tension screw near the trigger guard, I didn't see it, and a tension screw by itself is not IMO acceptable enough safety even for a concealment rig.

3) All this worn in the open on an exposed, clearly visible duty belt. Even his Taser had a strap for crying out loud!

This literally made my jaw drop open, ladies and gentlemen, and that does not happen very often!

Unless his department has added the aftermarket Cominolli safety to their Glocks, that's a match made in Hell!

I was very seriously considering popping off an email to that town's chief expressing my concern over this. Not because I wanna go "Oh, look how cool and savvy I am" but I wanted to tell him because I care. Because I don't want to see one of the Good Guys get killed over a preventable snatch attempt due to inexperienced gear selection.

I haven't said anything yet.

Should I?


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## Omar B (Dec 17, 2009)

Did you give him a good talking to?  He may have his gun snatched and used on him if he's not more mindful.


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## Bill Mattocks (Dec 17, 2009)

Yes.


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## MA-Caver (Dec 17, 2009)

Andy Moynihan said:


> Being a firearms instructor, and carry permit holder, and thus possesssing a semiprofessional interest in such things,
> 
> I haven't said anything yet.
> 
> Should I?



Yes


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## Andy Moynihan (Dec 17, 2009)

Omar B said:


> Did you give him a good talking to? He may have his gun snatched and used on him if he's not more mindful.


 

I wanted to, quite badly, but am aware of the potentially negative results of a young LEO being told by a "civilian" ( remember he didn't know me from Adam, or what I knew) how to go about his business in front of other "civilians".

Me having once been a soldier I learned the value of addressing other soldiers' mistakes by going through their "chain of command" as it were. That's why I'm hoping some of the forum LEOs will chime in with guidance as to whether I should open a channel to the chief or whether it would go ignored.....


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## Carol (Dec 17, 2009)

Andy Moynihan said:


> I haven't said anything yet.
> 
> Should I?


 
Yes.  I could see letting it slide if you saw the officer at the range...after all, he's there to fire his guns.  But this was when he was on-duty, in town.

"I was very seriously considering popping off an email to that town's chief expressing my concern over this. Not because I wanna go "Oh, look how cool and savvy I am" but I wanted to tell him because I care. Because I don't want to see one of the Good Guys get killed over a preventable snatch attempt due to inexperienced gear selection."

Can't say it much better than that.


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## Steve (Dec 17, 2009)

I'd echo the yes.  It sounds as though you have very sound reasons for your concern.


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## SensibleManiac (Dec 17, 2009)

Sending an email to the appropriate channels is not a bad idea.
Police learn from their mistakes as well, it's just better when it's not due to something happening or someone innocent getting hurt.


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## punisher73 (Dec 17, 2009)

Was it one of the newer blackhawk or fobus model holsters that are exactly as you describe, but there is a small finger depression on the holster that you need to engage to remove it?

I would still shoot an email to someone, or if you know someone who works in the dept. have them look into it.


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## Andy Moynihan (Dec 17, 2009)

punisher73 said:


> Was it one of the newer blackhawk or fobus model holsters that are exactly as you describe, but there is a small finger depression on the holster that you need to engage to remove it?
> 
> I would still shoot an email to someone, or if you know someone who works in the dept. have them look into it.


 

It was not a SERPA, that much I am sure of.


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## jks9199 (Dec 17, 2009)

punisher73 said:


> Was it one of the newer blackhawk or fobus model holsters that are exactly as you describe, but there is a small finger depression on the holster that you need to engage to remove it?
> 
> I would still shoot an email to someone, or if you know someone who works in the dept. have them look into it.


I can't believe anyone is authorizing a patrol officer to use something without some form of retention.  The Blackhawk Serpa and the small number of similar holsters have retention features that are less obvious than a thumbstrap or hood.  I think the OP has na reasonable background to politely inquire of the department.  Don't be surprised if they don't reveal a lot of information; asking about guns and holsters can make cops kind of nervous!


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## Archangel M (Dec 17, 2009)

There are newer holsters that have a small locking lever on the thumb side of the holster. Its called the Safariland Auto Locking System. It's very solid...I've tested one. And they do have a duty model.

http://www.extremeoutfitters.us/safarilandmodel6378alspaddleholster.aspx

http://billsgs.com/modules.php?set_...ame=Gallery&file=index&include=view_photo.php

Or it could have been a different Safariland:

http://www.code3tactical.com/safariland-model-295-duty-holster-mid-ride-level-ii.aspx

Most depts I am familiar with have restrictions on the holster they allow on duty.


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## Andy Moynihan (Dec 17, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> There are newer holsters that have a small locking lever on the thumb side of the holster. Its called the Safariland Auto Locking System. It's very solid...I've tested one. And they do have a duty model.
> 
> http://www.extremeoutfitters.us/safarilandmodel6378alspaddleholster.aspx
> 
> ...


 
http://www.code3tactical.com/safariland-model-295-duty-holster-mid-ride-level-ii.aspx

THAT'S the one. Thank you. Issue resolved.

(I kinda want one now)


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## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 18, 2009)

I kind've thought it might be that model and glad that someone was able to provide a picture and the issue resolved.

Like jks9199 and the other officer's on the board it would be a surprise if an officer in this day and age did not have
a holster with some sort of retention device on it.  Still I am sure there are some out there.


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## Deaf Smith (Dec 18, 2009)

Andy,

Concealment holsters are not thick enough to withstand a snatch. An adrenaline filled attacker will just rip the holster by it's seams. The armord car guards around here know better than that (but some of the old bank security guards don't!)

I would send a polite note to the chief. Polite and respectful. Might even get a Desantis, Gould & Gouldrich, or Galco catelog and send it with the note.

And find some newspaper articles about gun snaches, that to might open their eyes. But do use some Dale Carnage and win them over.

Deaf


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## Archangel M (Dec 18, 2009)

Deaf Smith said:


> Andy,
> 
> Concealment holsters are not thick enough to withstand a snatch. An adrenaline filled attacker will just rip the holster by it's seams. The armord car guards around here know better than that (but some of the old bank security guards don't!)
> 
> ...


 
Umm..the guy was wearing a level II duty retention holster.


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## Hudson69 (Dec 18, 2009)

A suggestion before you go off on a possibly new or old officer or their department.  

It sounds like you are not an LEO but have firearms experience so I will say it like this.  My department uses holster that has no real visible retention, the Safariland 6325 whether it is with a tac light (I use the TLR-1) or not.  

There is no visible retention and Safariland land does make one that only covers about half the gun, just up past the the ejection port (not sure what the model number is).  

These are very good quality holsters and they are as solid as anything with a thumb break anyway (they are rated at level II I believe).  Additionally they make off duty carry clones with a slightly different belt hook-up so you can have a paddle or belt slide that has the same retention and function.  They come with a shroud but most officers I have seen, myself included, take the shroud off.

I am not saying that this is the case but look at how popular the Serpa holsters are and they have no fan shroud and they are tough enough that the military authorizes them for use.

This is not a dig but just because someone is new does not mean that they are either in experienced or naive.

I would just ask the next officer you see with that rig and ask about it; most agencies I have worked with have some pretty solid rules about what they can and cannot use for uniform wear.


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## Hudson69 (Dec 18, 2009)

Deaf Smith said:


> Andy,
> 
> Concealment holsters are not thick enough to withstand a snatch. An adrenaline filled attacker will just rip the holster by it's seams. The armord car guards around here know better than that (but some of the old bank security guards don't!)
> 
> ...


 
I see that the issue was resolved already in regard to the holster; Safariland ALS type but this brings up another issue.

If you are a shooter then you know that there are any number of concealment rigs that are everybit as solid as a duty rig and are still very concealable; Serpa's and Safariland in addition to the ones named herein.

On another note most agencies do research on equipment and pick what is going to work best not simply the cheapest.  Most agencies have someone(s) who are gear guys and some are shooters; they let their agency range, training and supply guys know when something with CDI comes up that works.  But if you see something cool drop a line to your local department, office or agency.


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## Carol (Dec 18, 2009)

Hudson69 said:


> I would just ask the next officer you see with that rig and ask about it;


 
Really? I don't think I would ever ask an on-duty officer walking through town about their sidearm (or what holsters it).  Just seems like an unnecessary reason to put them on high alert and look at me in an overly suspicious light.

At least in my city, the Community Policing coordinator is just an e-mail or a phone call away. His contact info is on the PD website. Wouldn't a channel such as this be a better option?


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## Archangel M (Dec 18, 2009)

Not directed at anybody here but:

Most people I run into who want to gripe about our gear, training, shooting ability seem to be less concerned with our "safety" as they are about appearing more knowledgeable or "high speed" than the cops.


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## jks9199 (Dec 19, 2009)

Hudson69 said:


> I see that the issue was resolved already in regard to the holster; Safariland ALS type but this brings up another issue.
> 
> If you are a shooter then you know that there are any number of concealment rigs that are everybit as solid as a duty rig and are still very concealable; Serpa's and Safariland in addition to the ones named herein.
> 
> On another note most agencies do research on equipment and pick what is going to work best not simply the cheapest.  Most agencies have someone(s) who are gear guys and some are shooters; they let their agency range, training and supply guys know when something with CDI comes up that works.  But if you see something cool drop a line to your local department, office or agency.


I think your last paragraph is a little optimistic...

I know of way too many decisions that have been driven not by providing the best, but by the best available at the given price range.  Or cheaper, if possible...

(Like the decision to save a few bucks on radio batteries by getting batteries rated for 8 hours of use in a department that works 12 hour shifts...  Justified by the argument that the radio isn't in use for all 12 hours... )


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## sgtmac_46 (Dec 19, 2009)

Andy Moynihan said:


> http://www.code3tactical.com/safariland-model-295-duty-holster-mid-ride-level-ii.aspx
> 
> THAT'S the one. Thank you. Issue resolved.
> 
> (I kinda want one now)



I carried that model for years.......it's a Level II retention holster.......a very secure, and very fast holster, which is almost IMPOSSIBLE to draw from behind the officer......one of the best on the market, and i'd still carry it if I didn't have a light mounted on my GLOCK which I carry in a Serpa Level III.

As for the Safariland Level II that the officer was carrying, it is easy to look at it and think that it has to retention, as it is open top......but that's a VAST miscalculation on anyone thinking of taking it........We trained extensively with ours, and it's a very easy holster to defend a gun grab with, and it's very sturdy, holding up to some very rough attempts at disarms, to the point of wrestling, twisting and turning, without so much as a scratch, much less a failure.


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## Andy Moynihan (Dec 19, 2009)

Since there appears to be some confusion in the last few posts:

It has been clarified to me by Arch that the holster I saw DOES in fact have a retention device, therefore there is no need for me to say anything to anyone about a retentionless holster.

But I was nonetheless very glad to see the additional responses from other officers and Deaf, who I know is a fellow instructor, and all of it has broadened my perspective. Many thanks to all 

(It's just a shame they don't make that model yet for my Smith M&P compact....)


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## Archangel M (Dec 19, 2009)

Some of our officers still carry that Safariland model holster. It's being phased out though. The "flap/strap" that retains the pistol has a leather covered insert has a tendency to crack after many years of use. It still functions, but better safe than sorry.


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