# SLT/SNT



## Transk53 (Dec 26, 2014)

I would like to get a feeling of wht it is to progress to the second form. I believe I am right in thinking that the first form is literally the foundation. So guys and girls, what was like for you? I do not appreciate aesthetics that well. I am keen to hear of what were your reactions. Elation maybe, just thank god maybe and such like. Genuinely curious here. 

Apologies to anyone in the direction of my radar on Christmas day. Yeah, was a  tad  bit inebriated. Sorry peeps!


----------



## Jake104 (Dec 26, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> I would like to get a feeling of wht it is to progress to the second form. I believe I am right in thinking that the first form is literally the foundation. So guys and girls, what was like for you? I do not appreciate aesthetics that well. I am keen to hear of what were your reactions. Elation maybe, just thank god maybe and such like. Genuinely curious here.
> 
> Apologies to anyone in the direction of my radar on Christmas day. Yeah, was a  tad  bit inebriated. Sorry peeps!


Lol! I try and hide my phone when I'm inebriated.

In 3 years, I learned the 3 open hand forms a kicking form and the Luk Dim Boon kwun. My teacher taught WC as a simple system that can be taught  in 2-3 years. After that you go back to the beginning and learn it all over again. Hopefully diving deeper into the system and discovering more and more layers of learning...I believe like you the first form is the foundation. I practice the SLT now everyday religiously. I feel like SLT teaches me something new everyday. The Chum Kiu i try and focus on a few times a week. The other forms every once and a while. Just so I don't forget themt.


----------



## Transk53 (Dec 26, 2014)

Coolio. I will take onboard some of that if you don't mind I really don't have a proper outlook of being a beginner, the SLT kind of evaded me, I was the problem simply put. Anyway thanks for the input Jake, very helpful


----------



## Jake104 (Dec 26, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> Coolio. I will take onboard some of that if you don't mind I really don't have a proper outlook of being a beginner, the SLT kind of evaded me, I was the problem simply put. Anyway thanks for the input Jake, very helpful



It all evaded me the first time around. It was all about fighting and trying to make things work . The forms were more of an after thought. Now I have learned it's actually the reverse. The forms are mostly all I like to do now


----------



## Transk53 (Dec 26, 2014)

Jake104 said:


> It all evaded me the first time around. It was all about fighting and trying to make things work . The forms were more of an after thought. Now I have learned it's actually the reverse. The forms are mostly all I like to do now



Would you mind if I could ask a few questions as I go through the journey?


----------



## Jake104 (Dec 26, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> Would you mind if I could ask a few questions as I go through the journey?


No,not at all! There are smarter people on here then me on the subject of WC and it's theories. I can help as much as I can. I spent a lot of time testing the art against other arts. So my experience comes more from that. But I'm starting to divulge more into the theory side of things.  And guess what? The SLT is what is teaching me this. I had always looked at Wing Chun or Martial arts in general from a technique stand point. Now I'am understanding what WSL meant by "Let your opponent show you how to defeat him".


----------



## Transk53 (Dec 26, 2014)

Jake104 said:


> No,not at all! There are smarter people on here then me on the subject of WC and it's theories. I can help as much as I can. I spent a lot of time testing the art against other arts. So my experience comes more from that. But I'm starting to divulge more into the theory side of things.  And guess what? The SLT is what is teaching me this. I had always looked at Wing Chun or Martial arts in general from a technique stand point. Now I'am understanding what WSL meant by "Let your opponent show you how to defeat him".



Yes, I believe that is the fundamental, irrespective of lineage. We all have knowledge to pass on.


----------



## Danny T (Dec 26, 2014)

SLT – the Little Idea Form or the Little Imagination form.

It is a seed form. Metaphorically you plant a seed fertilize and water it as you grow in knowledge and understanding. If you don’t understand the little idea, you’ll never understand the big idea.

You should be learning about your body structure, body mechanics, your center of gravity; what changes it, how it changes and how to use it. Breath and mental intent. Relaxation, power generation, footwork, pressure application, receiving pressure, directing pressure, angling, weight distribution and changing it.
Gates, lines, and how to control them. And so much more.

SLT is the beginner form and when you understand the other forms SLT is the most advanced form.


----------



## Jake104 (Dec 26, 2014)

Very good post! Very descriptive and informative.
Lately doing the SLT. I have found it to work similar to mediation. It keeps my mind in the now. I mainly see the results of this in chi sao. It a weird phenomenon. It's like time slows down a bit. I think similar to stories you might of heard of people involved in car accidents or traumatic events. Where they say time seems as if slows down or as if it's in slow motion. Weird but interesting.


----------



## futsaowingchun (Dec 27, 2014)

When you grow in your understanding in Wing Chun your SNT will become deeper and deeper. There is no limit to your learning,so how deep you want to go is up to you.


----------



## Transk53 (Dec 27, 2014)

Danny T said:


> SLT – the Little Idea Form or the Little Imagination form.
> 
> It is a seed form. Metaphorically you plant a seed fertilize and water it as you grow in knowledge and understanding. If you don’t understand the little idea, you’ll never understand the big idea.
> 
> ...



Ah brilliant reply fella. That is new to me, but does make sense. In fact Wing Chun when I first approached it, it seems endless if you see what I mean.


----------



## Transk53 (Dec 27, 2014)

Jake104 said:


> Very good post! Very descriptive and informative.
> Lately doing the SLT. I have found it to work similar to mediation. It keeps my mind in the now. I mainly see the results of this in chi sao. It a weird phenomenon. It's like time slows down a bit. I think similar to stories you might of heard of people involved in car accidents or traumatic events. Where they say time seems as if slows down or as if it's in slow motion. Weird but interesting.


 
You are right. The last car accident I was in, the feeling is weird. Time for a moment does indeed appear to slow down. Then the dreaded shock that no one can escape.


----------



## jhexx (Dec 28, 2014)

Once you start with SLT, take time to really look at the hands, the shapes you perform, and try to look at each separate section and identify how each movement or hand can be applied in a multitude of ways. Allow your mind to be a mind of no mind. Once you can perform SLT decently, try to do sets of SLT as slow as you can enough that you feel it in every core muscle you are using, but relax the shoulders and move natural without force. Feel for your balance on all sides and get a great feel and understanding for grounding/rooting oneself for power generation thru the use of your stance and positioning. Don't rush your learning experience, really take the time to know it and little ideas will form into your eternal springtime.


----------



## Transk53 (Dec 28, 2014)

jhexx said:


> Once you start with SLT, take time to really look at the hands, the shapes you perform, and try to look at each separate section and identify how each movement or hand can be applied in a multitude of ways. Allow your mind to be a mind of no mind. Once you can perform SLT decently, try to do sets of SLT as slow as you can enough that you feel it in every core muscle you are using, but relax the shoulders and move natural without force. Feel for your balance on all sides and get a great feel and understanding for grounding/rooting oneself for power generation thru the use of your stance and positioning. Don't rush your learning experience, really take the time to know it and little ideas will form into your eternal springtime.



So far the beginning is not too bad, but latter part SLT is a little tricky. Yeah, I am going through really quite slow. Having to Youtube it at the moment can be a little tricky. Like if the vid cuts to another screen angle, or travels through a little quick. But still can't miracles, although knowing me I will, so for the moment I am quite pleased. Hopefully being immersed back in the school environment, some other things come flooding back. One of the advantages being around others rather than remembering on my tod.


----------



## Kwan Sau (Dec 28, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> I would like to get a feeling of wht it is to progress to the second form.
> 
> what was like for you?



Before moving on to 2nd form...we had to be tested in a brutal 'gauntlet'. It was somewhat difficult because the gauntlet was multiple opponents with fresh attackers lined up behind them. We had to last 3 minute round. If we messed up, did something wrong, etc the time clock started over. If you survived, you went to learn 2nd form.


----------



## Transk53 (Dec 28, 2014)

Kwan Sau said:


> Before moving on to 2nd form...we had to be tested in a brutal 'gauntlet'. It was somewhat difficult because the gauntlet was multiple opponents with fresh attackers lined up behind them. We had to last 3 minute round. If we messed up, did something wrong, etc the time clock started over. If you survived, you went to learn 2nd form.



Mmm, sounds like a lot of fun!


----------



## Danny T (Dec 28, 2014)

Learn the form, Know the form, Understand the form, Throw the form away.
Forms - Drills - Applications


----------



## Transk53 (Dec 28, 2014)

Danny T said:


> Learn the form, Know the form, Understand the form, Throw the form away.
> Forms - Drills - Applications



hang on, confused.com a little. If it is the least important, but also the most important form, why discard it?


----------



## Kwan Sau (Dec 28, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> hang on, confused.com a little. If it is the least important, but also the most important form, why discard it?



Don't take it literally...it's just a common expression regarding the "journey."
It is a progression, a continuum.


----------



## Danny T (Dec 28, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> hang on, confused.com a little. If it is the least important, but also the most important form, why discard it?


Metaphorically.
Once you truly know and understand the form. You do not fight with the form. Form is for learning.


----------



## Transk53 (Dec 28, 2014)

Kwan Sau said:


> Don't take it literally...it's just a common expression regarding the "journey."
> It is a progression, a continuum.



No worries


----------



## Transk53 (Dec 28, 2014)

Danny T said:


> Metaphorically.
> Once you truly know and understand the form. You do not fight with the form. Form is for learning.



Right so in my limited field of vision, you fight with the technique derived from the form?


----------



## Danny T (Dec 28, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> Right so in my limited field of vision, you fight with the technique derived from the form?


One must learn to respond with what is received. Form is for learning - Form. Positions, structure, movements, stance, etc. Drills are for learning to use the positions, structure, movements, timing, range, feel, pressure, center of gravity changes,...etc.
Application is survival, fighting using what has been ingrained and entrained but a many not look like the drills or form presented.


----------



## Transk53 (Dec 28, 2014)

Danny T said:


> One must learn to respond with what is received. Form is for learning - Form. Positions, structure, movements, stance, etc. Drills are for learning to use the positions, structure, movements, timing, range, feel, pressure, center of gravity changes,...etc.
> Application is survival, fighting using what has been ingrained and entrained but a many not look like the drills or form presented.



Sweet. Yeah I like that. I'll make sure I will write that down.


----------



## jhexx (Dec 30, 2014)

Danny T said:


> One must learn to respond with what is received. Form is for learning - Form. Positions, structure, movements, stance, etc. Drills are for learning to use the positions, structure, movements, timing, range, feel, pressure, center of gravity changes,...etc.
> Application is survival, fighting using what has been ingrained and entrained but a many not look like the drills or form presented.


Best way to break it down 1+


----------



## Jake104 (Jan 6, 2015)

Danny T said:


> One must learn to respond with what is received. Form is for learning - Form. Positions, structure, movements, stance, etc. Drills are for learning to use the positions, structure, movements, timing, range, feel, pressure, center of gravity changes,...etc.
> Application is survival, fighting using what has been ingrained and entrained but a many not look like the drills or form presented.


Dang you're good!


----------



## Danny T (Jan 6, 2015)

Jake104 said:


> Dang you're good!


Well that got me laughing. 
Can I get you to state that again for my wife? 'Hey Jacquie; come see this'.


----------



## Eric_H (Jan 6, 2015)

Danny T said:


> One must learn to respond with what is received. Form is for learning - Form. Positions, structure, movements, stance, etc. Drills are for learning to use the positions, structure, movements, timing, range, feel, pressure, center of gravity changes,...etc.
> Application is survival, fighting using what has been ingrained and entrained but a many not look like the drills or form presented.



One might argue "then what is the point of forms at all?" As all the attributes you list under form training can indeed be taught in a 2-man format.

For a long while I was concerned largely with application, and planned to teach Wing Chun with as little form training as possible, more similar to what GM Leung Jan did in Gulo village. As I've gotten older and had more training time with my Sifu, I understand things a bit differently now - the little idea is that of "focus" or more specifically, focus on what things matter. For my lineage, we focus on how to measure time and space with our tools/theories available. And in counter to my original question, I'd say that in 2-man drilling we are often listening to the other person, it's form training that gives us the chance to listen to ourselves. Would you concur?

Also, I'd argue that things should by and large resemble the form under a perfect situation (working against someone of the same physical qualities) but obviously they change as the dimensions of your opponent change ie: can't use a high taan sao at head level if I'm 6'3 and my opponent is 5'5.


----------



## Danny T (Jan 6, 2015)

Eric_H said:


> One might argue "then what is the point of forms at all?" As all the attributes you list under form training can indeed be taught in a 2-man format.
> 
> For a long while I was concerned largely with application, and planned to teach Wing Chun with as little form training as possible, more similar to what GM Leung Jan did in Gulo village. As I've gotten older and had more training time with my Sifu, I understand things a bit differently now - the little idea is that of "focus" or more specifically, focus on what things matter. For my lineage, we focus on how to measure time and space with our tools/theories available. And in counter to my original question, I'd say that in 2-man drilling we are often listening to the other person, it's form training that gives us the chance to listen to ourselves. Would you concur?
> 
> Also, I'd argue that things should by and large resemble the form under a perfect situation (working against someone of the same physical qualities) but obviously they change as the dimensions of your opponent change ie: can't use a high taan sao at head level if I'm 6'3 and my opponent is 5'5.



Don’t always have a training partner. Soooo, Form training is an excellent way to work ones fundamentals. There are several ‘extras’ to learning and practicing forms. Repetition, Repetition, Repetition. Mental discipline, mental relaxation, and yes learning to listen to one’s self. Feeling how breathing changes the center of gravity, how to feel the tension in the body and to release it. These things I feel are a part of one’s form and structure. It is an internal aspect of our form and not something that is seen.

When you present the structure of tan sao and then use it in a drill designed to develop the proper response for when to utilize the tan sao verses a different structure. In actual application the structure of tan may very well be utilized against an opponent’s body or maybe the neck vs the forearm as in the drill. I have used a jop sao structure as an arm bar with the opponent’s arm jammed between my neck and the jop sao structure. The application of jop sao in this case is not as in the drill utilized to develop it. To the untrained eye many would not recognize it as a jop. Same can be in many other situations. Lan sao structure  is an elbow strike as well as a fence. In form it is not presented as a elbow strike. There many other possibilities for application that is not as developed by drill.


----------



## Treznor (Jan 23, 2015)

SNT is basically the root of pretty much everything you're going to learn on your journey... Even when you do move on to Chum Kiu and Biu Ji, you can still trace positions and movements back to SNT.

Think of it as the foundations for a building... not something you want to rush through to get to the more 'interesting' bits... If the foundation is shakey, the rest won't be up to much either.

Personally, I'd be wary of using YouTube for learning purposes... at best there's a lot of videos out there that will contradict how your lineage / school teaches the form... at worst there's a lot of people on there showing dodgy techniques and passing them off as being straight from the mouth of Ip Man.

In addition to the above, when you're watching a video, you can't see / feel the energies involved.... In my opinion, the best way to utilise videos is to find something that looks similar (if not the same) to what your school teaches and then use it for prompting purposes only... ie you can't remember which technique is next so check the vid.

Hope all this helps

Mat


----------



## Transk53 (Jan 24, 2015)

Treznor said:


> SNT is basically the root of pretty much everything you're going to learn on your journey... Even when you do move on to Chum Kiu and Biu Ji, you can still trace positions and movements back to SNT.
> 
> Think of it as the foundations for a building... not something you want to rush through to get to the more 'interesting' bits... If the foundation is shakey, the rest won't be up to much either.



Yeah, that part I do see without actually looking. Basically from the brief stint first time around.



Treznor said:


> Personally, I'd be wary of using YouTube for learning purposes... at best there's a lot of videos out there that will contradict how your lineage / school teaches the form... at worst there's a lot of people on there showing dodgy techniques and passing them off as being straight from the mouth of Ip Man.



Indeed. I pretty much watch Youtube for the comparisons rather than whether the subject matter is wholly correct. I derive from there as to whether something looks legit or a showboating vid.



Treznor said:


> In addition to the above, when you're watching a video, you can't see / feel the energies involved.... In my opinion, the best way to utilise videos is to find something that looks similar (if not the same) to what your school teaches and then use it for prompting purposes only... ie you can't remember which technique is next so check the vid.



Yeah I agree on that. I am learning in the EWTO organisation. As scandalous as may well sound lol, the Sifu does not get caught up in all the linage and style stuff, he just teaches Wing Chun and views it that way. It also helping that SNT is broken down into sections now. The first time around all students went through the entire movement, but this time it was just arms in position and the downward thrust, reverse the hands and back. I concentrate on that at home and it is easier to remember.


----------



## Argus (Jan 24, 2015)

Treznor said:


> SNT is basically the root of pretty much everything you're going to learn on your journey... Even when you do move on to Chum Kiu and Biu Ji, you can still trace positions and movements back to SNT.
> 
> Think of it as the foundations for a building... not something you want to rush through to get to the more 'interesting' bits... If the foundation is shakey, the rest won't be up to much either.
> 
> ...




I think you're discounting videos too much here. While you can easily stumble across Joe Smoe of lineage X teaching nonsense, you can just as easily... you know, type in something like "Ip Ching Sil Lim Tao" or "Wong Shun Leung Siu Nim Tao" or even "Ip Man Sil Lim Tao," and get it all straight from your particular horse's mouth. Just use discernment.

Moreover, I feel that there's a lot you can learn about Wing Chun, it's history, and especially "how to think" by researching various lineages and looking at material from trusted sources. There's an amazing amount of footage even from first-generation students of Yip Man still available, and there are many respectable 2nd generation students with good content as well. Just keep in mind who you're watching, and that if he is outside your lineage, you want to be careful about what you emulate. But, I don't recommend watching videos of other lineages in order to emulate so much as I do in order to get a broad understanding of Wing Chun as a whole, and get your brain churning. Wing Chun by and large does share the same principles, but what's interesting to me is to see how different lineages/individuals do (or don't) apply those principles, or apply them in different ways. Even spotting differences and contradictions can be just as much a way to learn about your system as anything.

And, lastly (though I know this was not something Treznor is warning about), the most useful video you can reference is one of yourself and your Sifu. In my training, I was only able to make it out to my school once or twice a month due to the distance, so I always made the best of it; I tried to stay as long as I could, and cram as many classes and private lessons in there as I could. And my Sifu allowed me to take video of my private lessons. This served to be an extremely valuable training aide. Not only could I keep the content fresh in my memory, but I noticed a lot of small details whenever I rewatched those videos; both details of what my Sifu did, and what I did. I could also observe myself from a third person perspective, and get a clear view of what I did right or wrong. And, most remarkably, because I was there, I can often remember even the feeling of touching hands with my teacher in the moment. This is a really powerful tool, and probably the best way to use video as a training aide.


----------



## Vajramusti (Jan 24, 2015)

Argus said:


> I think you're discounting videos too much here. While you can easily stumble across Joe Smoe of lineage X teaching nonsense, you can just as easily... you know, type in something like "Ip Ching Sil Lim Tao" or "Wong Shun Leung Siu Nim Tao" or even "Ip Man Sil Lim Tao," and get it all straight from your particular horse's mouth. Just use discernment.
> 
> Moreover, I feel that there's a lot you can learn about Wing Chun, it's history, and especially "how to think" by researching various lineages and looking at material from trusted sources. There's an amazing amount of footage even from first-generation students of Yip Man still available, and there are many respectable 2nd generation students with good content as well. Just keep in mind who you're watching, and that if he is outside your lineage, you want to be careful about what you emulate. But, I don't recommend watching videos of other lineages in order to emulate so much as I do in order to get a broad understanding of Wing Chun as a whole, and get your brain churning. Wing Chun by and large does share the same principles, but what's interesting to me is to see how different lineages/individuals do (or don't) apply those principles, or apply them in different ways. Even spotting differences and contradictions can be just as much a way to learn about your system as anything.
> 
> ...


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

good post


----------



## Transk53 (Jan 24, 2015)

Argus said:


> I think you're discounting videos too much here. While you can easily stumble across Joe Smoe of lineage X teaching nonsense, you can just as easily... you know, type in something like "Ip Ching Sil Lim Tao" or "Wong Shun Leung Siu Nim Tao" or even "Ip Man Sil Lim Tao," and get it all straight from your particular horse's mouth. Just use discernment.



On a personal level, and just strictly my viewpoint, I mean no disrespect to the art, but I don't care which linage it is. I am interested in Wing Chun as a whole. As you stated to TREZNOR, I agree with you're Sifu statement. I am also blessed with a few 1st graders. All of which the Sifu has made sure I have had practice with. In fact, they are all that I have practised with. Kind of funny that one of them thought that I have done MMA. I did not press him for the reason why, but that made me feel pretty good. Always nice to feel that you have learnt things over the years, and also that you have learnt things. Anyway so far, so good. I am very pleased with my first bunch of lessons


----------



## Argus (Jan 24, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> On a personal level, and just strictly my viewpoint, I mean no disrespect to the art, but I don't care which linage it is.



That's always been my sentiment as well. If I could, I would love to train in several different lineages. There's plenty of things I like about my lineage, but also things that I don't like so much, and the same is true for other lineages. I feel that no one teacher is perfect or correct in everything they do; they have their strong points as well as aspects that they may not value or train as much as other teachers/lineages.

I've had my fair share of frustration feeling limited by the lineage that I study, but at the same time, you have to accept the fact that your teacher can only teach you what he knows; and he knows what he has been taught in his lineage. So, to make the best of your training and get the most out of your Sifu's instruction, you have to cater to his lineage and take that mold. Once you've got a really solid base, then you can probably explore the art more and make it your own. But, I'm not there yet, so I can't really talk about that.

All that said, I think my Wing Chun has been influenced by my own personal understanding and experiences, and is subtly different from what my teacher, or classmates do, even at my level. The same is true for anyone, I'm sure.


----------



## Transk53 (Jan 24, 2015)

Argus said:


> That's always been my sentiment as well. If I could, I would love to train in several different lineages. There's plenty of things I like about my lineage, but also things that I don't like so much, and the same is true for other lineages. I feel that no one teacher is perfect or correct in everything they do; they have their strong points as well as aspects that they may not value or train as much as other teachers/lineages.
> 
> I've had my fair share of frustration feeling limited by the lineage that I study, but at the same time, you have to accept the fact that your teacher can only teach you what he knows; and he knows what he has been taught in his lineage. So, to make the best of your training and get the most out of your Sifu's instruction, you have to cater to his lineage and take that mold. Once you've got a really solid base, then you can probably explore the art more and make it your own. But, I'm not there yet, so I can't really talk about that.
> 
> All that said, I think my Wing Chun has been influenced by my own personal understanding and experiences, and is subtly different from what my teacher, or classmates do, even at my level. The same is true for anyone, I'm sure.



This is a great reply Argus +1 

Yes I agree with you on this. However, one little quirk that I have to live with is a woeful attention span, hence why I choose to adopt my viewpoint. I tend to get quite bored reading up martial arts history, guess I just think of the end product too much. I believe the EWTO follow the Yip Man linage, but to be honest, I don't appreciate what that really means, I can feel that little thought that whispers history and the mark that something biblical started in Foshan, but maybe in time I will grasp the fundamental truth of whichever linage. For now though, that just clutters my mind. Simple at the moment, it is way much more fun feeling the way


----------



## jhexx (Jan 25, 2015)

Being a person who has studied three versions of wc I totally agree that if you take time to learn why there are differences in application, it can only add to your knowledge and make you more versatile. For example, gum sau in application done in the form is the same but the way Wang kiu lineage does it in SLT versus jiu wan , when the WK version of gum sau was shown to me , it lit my brain on fire because it gave me a way to use it as a low end block using the inner flesh of my forearm to drive the traveling fist away from the groin, while shifting slightly to divert the arm' momentum away from my body. It was a feeling of "ah cool, more ways to use the gum sao, cool! " state of mind. I think never limit what you can add and make into your own unique expression of WC.


----------



## Danny T (Jan 25, 2015)

jhexx said:


> Being a person who has studied three versions of wc I totally agree that if you take time to learn why there are differences in application, it can only add to your knowledge and make you more versatile. For example, gum sau in application done in the form is the same but the way Wang kiu lineage does it in SLT versus jiu wan , when the WK version of gum sau was shown to me , it lit my brain on fire because it gave me a way to use it as a low end block using the inner flesh of my forearm to drive the traveling fist away from the groin, while shifting slightly to divert the arm' momentum away from my body. It was a feeling of "ah cool, more ways to use the gum sao, cool! " state of mind. I think never limit what you can add and make into your own unique expression of WC.



Form and application is not the same. There are a lot of application potentials within all of the movements/postures of form.
Applications shown within learning form is but limited examples for one to understand potential. It is up to the practitioner to play, experiment, test, and glean their own ways.


----------

