# I need to say my piece



## kailat (Feb 3, 2008)

As I rummage through this forum daily, I am constantly seeing everyone's expression of surviving a knife encounter be it from a grappling, standing, surprise, behind the throat ATTACK!! 

As I have so many mixed emotional and reserved feelings about the majority of these techniques I watch clips, i read threads on what to do, what not to do in these situations.   It seems as everyone or every style is trying to re-invent the wheel when it comes to edged weapon conflict.

The simple truth is just that "K.I.S.S." (Keep it simple stupid)  as in all self defense.  Why does martial arts try to consitently come up with endless counters for counters or returns and such that will obviously get one killed if anyone was to ever use these techniques?

One thing I do within my group to stay sharp is train knife training every single class we do.  WE DO FULL CONTACT knife sparring.  ANd u know what?  From the newest to the most skilled "EVERYONE GETS CUT NO MATTER WHAT"  If it were real no one would ever leave class alive!

SIMPLE RULES TO FOLLOW WHEN CONFRONTED BY A KNIFE!

A) always be aware of your surroundings and never be in that situation to begin with.

B) the term "defang the snake" is probaly the best rule ever taught that does not get enough credit.  DESTROY THE LIMB, PROTECT YOUR VITALS and chances are you'll survive.

C) expect to get cut, even more than once.  TRAIN to minimize that cut to less than lethal areas on your body.  

D) find an equalizer if at all possible, shirt, coat (wrapped on forward arm) rolled newspaper, any object that equals the playing field immedietly.

E) ALWAYS ATTACK THE EYES, THROAT, GROIN.. Cant see/can't fight, Can't breathe/can't fight  Can't stand/Can't fight!! 

From all the things i've learned and trained these are the things that I've experienced in training and in real life that at all cost will work ALWAYS..

If you have to take a cut to your arm/hand to save a slash accross the throat, SO BE IT.. If you have to guide a lunge thrust to the rib to protect your lower abdomen being slashed or heart punctured than so be it.. U do what you have to, to survive... I can always get stitches, I don't wanna have my guts laying in my hands!!!

 So why am i writting this?  Because one thing we need to be training our students is EXPECT TO GET CUT, if you survive an edged attack unscathed, luck is probably on your side moreso than skill....

A seasoned knifer won't hesitate to cut to kill you and know just how to do it, because he's done it before!!

Someone who is just trying to intimidate you and pulls a knife on you because he is just too scared to get beat up, is just as dangerous because his actions will be mistakes.. But your chances of survival are much better...

 thank you for letting me rant!!!


----------



## Xue Sheng (Feb 3, 2008)

Rant much appriciated



kailat said:


> Someone who is just trying to intimidate you and pulls a knife on you because he is just too scared to get beat up, is just as dangerous because his actions will be mistakes.. But your chances of survival are much better...
> 
> thank you for letting me rant!!!


 
Interesting.

Although I do not fence I have heard something similar form a few I have meant that do. The most dangerous person in a fencing class is a newbie with no experience what-so-ever


----------



## michaeledward (Feb 3, 2008)

I was having a conversation yesterday with a black belt candidate. We spent about an hour reviewing the five knife techniques in our system. 

The lesson I have heard, and hope that I never need to actually learn is ... 

The winner of a knife fight is the one who leaves alive. 

... that is more than enough for me to do everything I can to avoid all fights. Even if only one fight in twenty deals with a weapon; that rule and those odds are not good.


----------



## still learning (Feb 6, 2008)

Hello,  If the sitution raises quickly and you have only you arms and hands to protect you?

Better to get cut on the back of your arms than the inside.....HOW?

Keep your palms facing you and back of your arms facing out...it may feel strange at first?  ...but where would you like to get cut? ...not the veins?   hands are opening too.. 
Try this?    for knife defense....we do...........Aloha


----------



## thardey (Feb 6, 2008)

And a well said piece it is . . .


----------



## arnisador (Feb 6, 2008)

Lots of good advice there!


----------



## kailat (Feb 7, 2008)

One thing that someone needs to consider when training a blade, tap drills, passing drills, dissarm drills are all well and good and they serve a purpose but if you cannot put those skills to test in training at full combat speed your not going to understand the proficiency of a knife.  And better yet that of the one weilding the knife.

 PUT a full contact helmet on your partner and gve him an ALUMUNUM training knife not some flimsy rubber thing. (depending on your comfortability of training and safety) and then go at it.  Go 30sec and if you have more than one person to goo thru do that and tally your skill.

 Once you put a helmet on you can attack the face/head w/ force therefore the game changes a bit.  WHen you are limited in training and you play you attack me game but I cannot take my aggression out to stop you at all cost, well the disadvantage is yours.

 U WILL FIGHT HOW U TRAIN!!  just my humble opinion here folks

Thanks


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 7, 2008)

kailat said:


> One thing that someone needs to consider when training a blade, tap drills, passing drills, dissarm drills are all well and good and they serve a purpose but if you cannot put those skills to test in training at full combat speed your not going to understand the proficiency of a knife. And better yet that of the one weilding the knife.
> 
> PUT a full contact helmet on your partner and gve him an ALUMUNUM training knife not some flimsy rubber thing. (depending on your comfortability of training and safety) and then go at it. Go 30sec and if you have more than one person to goo thru do that and tally your skill.
> 
> ...


 
Even better get some marking knives with white clothes on to show you where you got cut.  Definately a real eye opener. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Here are some IRT practitioner's working just that!
http://brianvancise.wordpress.com/page/3/

Good thread Kailat!


----------



## Bodhisattva (Feb 7, 2008)

kailat said:


> As I rummage through this forum daily, I am constantly seeing everyone's expression of surviving a knife encounter be it from a grappling, standing, surprise, behind the throat ATTACK!!
> 
> As I have so many mixed emotional and reserved feelings about the majority of these techniques I watch clips, i read threads on what to do, what not to do in these situations. It seems as everyone or every style is trying to re-invent the wheel when it comes to edged weapon conflict.
> 
> ...


 
The only only only realistic knife defense training I've ever seen is Karl Tanswell of Straight Blast Gym International.  His STAB program is realistic, and he's put it to use as a highly paid full time bodyguard.

The stuff they taught me in Kali was crap.  Grabbing a man by his knife arm with one arm is ridiculous.

Anyone really intersted in suriviving a knife encounter should check out his video.

http://www.karltanswell.co.uk/index...art&page=shop.browse&category_id=6&Itemid=128

First response to a knife attack: Run.

Can't run? 

Second response to a knife attack: Get BOTH HANDS on the weapon arm, and watch to make sure your opponent doesn't switch hands.

To learn the rest, you'll have to buy the knife defense dvd's.


----------



## Bodhisattva (Feb 7, 2008)

michaeledward said:


> I was having a conversation yesterday with a black belt candidate. We spent about an hour reviewing the five knife techniques in our system.
> 
> The lesson I have heard, and hope that I never need to actually learn is ...
> 
> ...


 
Easily one of the MOST SENSIBLE responses I've seen on this subject on any forum.


----------



## thardey (Feb 7, 2008)

kailat said:


> One thing that someone needs to consider when training a blade, tap drills, passing drills, dissarm drills are all well and good and they serve a purpose but if you cannot put those skills to test in training at full combat speed your not going to understand the proficiency of a knife.  And better yet that of the one wielding the knife.
> 
> PUT a full contact helmet on your partner and gve him an ALUMUNUM training knife not some flimsy rubber thing. (depending on your comfortability of training and safety) and then go at it.  Go 30sec and if you have more than one person to goo thru do that and tally your skill.
> 
> ...



That's what we do - we use fencing helmets - it completely changes the game when you can aggressively stab and slash at the eyes and neck. We don't use aluminum blades, but we use "sof-stx" they have a rigid core, but are padded, so you'll feel the thrust, and actually "parry" with the blade. I mean, it's strong enough to, not that I really recommend trying to parry with that short of a blade.

We practice knife dueling, for that stuff - knowing how to use the weapon makes it easier to know what's happening if you get caught without one. It's happened a few times that I've had the knife stripped, or knocked out of my hand. We don't stop, I have to keep going empty-handed and disarm my opponent. Of course, he has no reason to hold back, either. I've been successful at times, and have gotten cut at times. But the simplest is _always_ the best. Usually when my opponent loses his blade, he runs. I haven't caught him yet.


----------



## MA-Caver (Feb 7, 2008)

Personally I think the most dangerous knife fight is where the blade isn't seen, i.e. resting along the inside of the wrist. 
But training is good, training is essential. One would expect more blades to come into fighting scenarios as the right to bear arms (in this country) are being slowly whittled away. 
What I've observed however, is that a lot of people, A LOT of people really don't know how to fight (properly and effectively) with blades. Watch any of those groups that recreate ancient times and fight with their padded weapons and you see a bunch of swinging and bashing going on, no true forms or techniques, just a lot of "trying to hit the guy". Same would go with knives. There'll be a lot of stabbing motions and slashing movements which are more out of desperation in hopes of hurting the person. 
One in training needs to be aware of that. Not all (knife) attackers are going to act as your (trained) sparring partner did in the dojo. And, there may not always be just one (knife) attacker.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 7, 2008)

MA-Caver said:


> Personally I think the most dangerous knife fight is where the blade isn't seen, i.e. resting along the inside of the wrist.
> But training is good, training is essential. One would expect more blades to come into fighting scenarios as the right to bear arms (in this country) are being slowly whittled away.
> What I've observed however, is that a lot of people, A LOT of people really don't know how to fight (properly and effectively) with blades. Watch any of those groups that recreate ancient times and fight with their padded weapons and you see a bunch of swinging and bashing going on, no true forms or techniques, just a lot of "trying to hit the guy". Same would go with knives. There'll be a lot of stabbing motions and slashing movements which are more out of desperation in hopes of hurting the person.
> One in training needs to be aware of that. Not all (knife) attackers are going to act as your (trained) sparring partner did in the dojo. And, there may not always be just one (knife) attacker.


 
Absolutely and picking up the subtle clues to an attack without the knife showing is essential.  We talk and I demonstrate how someone might pull something out regularly and what things you can look for.  Even more important though is *just to feel* that iminent attack coming.


----------



## thardey (Feb 7, 2008)

MA-Caver said:


> Personally I think the most dangerous knife fight is where the blade isn't seen, i.e. resting along the inside of the wrist.
> But training is good, training is essential. One would expect more blades to come into fighting scenarios as the right to bear arms (in this country) are being slowly whittled away.
> What I've observed however, is that a lot of people, A LOT of people really don't know how to fight (properly and effectively) with blades. Watch any of those groups that recreate ancient times and fight with their padded weapons and you see a bunch of swinging and bashing going on, no true forms or techniques, just a lot of "trying to hit the guy". Same would go with knives. There'll be a lot of stabbing motions and slashing movements which are more out of desperation in hopes of hurting the person.
> One in training needs to be aware of that. Not all (knife) attackers are going to act as your (trained) sparring partner did in the dojo. And, there may not always be just one (knife) attacker.



Very good points. But at least way we do get full-speed sparring. (Our techniques are an extention of our fencing, BTW, old Italian and Spanish stuff.)



Brian R. VanCise said:


> Absolutely and picking up the subtle clues to an attack without the knife showing is essential.  We talk and I demonstrate how someone might pull something out regularly and what things you can look for.  Even more important though is *just to feel* that iminent attack coming.



Absolutely. Knowing how to duel is pointless if you're surprised and don't have your knife already out. Even if my knife (or gun) is on me, it's not in my hand, and should have been, if I was being aware. If I get surprised, though I'm going to have to deal with it empty-handed, until I can buy an opportunity to draw my own weapon. And that takes precious time.


----------



## Darth F.Takeda (Feb 25, 2008)

kailat said:


> As I rummage through this forum daily, I am constantly seeing everyone's expression of surviving a knife encounter be it from a grappling, standing, surprise, behind the throat ATTACK!!
> 
> As I have so many mixed emotional and reserved feelings about the majority of these techniques I watch clips, i read threads on what to do, what not to do in these situations. It seems as everyone or every style is trying to re-invent the wheel when it comes to edged weapon conflict.
> 
> ...


 
Every single time we work knives (alot) Sensei starts with "Expect to get cut. If you don't, great! But expect to get cut."


----------



## Darth F.Takeda (Feb 25, 2008)

Since I have been doing Pekiti Tarsia, my knife defense, even Jujutsu based techniques have gotten alot better.

The FMA group I train with useds headcages and laccrosse gloves and uses wooden, plastic or aluminum knives, because pain is a great teacher.


----------



## stabpunch (Apr 29, 2008)

In Hakarac we train empty hands against knife...

The guy with the training blade wears a head guard and we try to box them. Good deal, because you get to smash the guy with the plastic knife.

Bad deal...

thank the clouds above the blade isn't real. 

Marking blade or pen is fun yes. It does increase awareness.

For me i look to secure the limb with the weapon and turn off the computer controlling said limb. 
That is based on my training and fighting style, what you chose will be different. 
Every situation is different. Threat demand or murder.

ouch what's that wet stuff who's bleeding oh it's me and i've just been cut another three times... Murder


----------



## Imua Kuntao (Apr 29, 2008)

kailat said:


> As I rummage through this forum daily, I am constantly seeing everyone's expression of surviving a knife encounter be it from a grappling, standing, surprise, behind the throat ATTACK!!
> 
> As I have so many mixed emotional and reserved feelings about the majority of these techniques I watch clips, i read threads on what to do, what not to do in these situations. It seems as everyone or every style is trying to re-invent the wheel when it comes to edged weapon conflict.
> 
> ...


I agree with your thoughts, some instructors like others to believe they know ,ore by having so many counters-recounters-counter recounters. You have a good method and is good for everybody
Thanks for your post.


----------



## Ahriman (May 13, 2008)

What I think is missing here is that the knifer has other limbs as well. We sometimes do rather intensive knife practice. My partners don't really like when I'm the situational attacker, as would they catch my hand, I usually kick out their legs - and show them just how easy would it be to break their knees instead of just making them collapse without major damage. Other reason of this dislike is that I attack like a madman... and continue with stabs, cuts, fists, elbows, knees, headbutts until I succeed or they can kill me. That last possibility occurs when we ignore attacker hits and later analyse real-life effects.
...
Aluminium trainers are fun as long as you don't go full contact. I broke a few forearms and wrists and shins with an ultra-light, extra-padded practice longsword when some idiot wanted to spar full contact with me, without protective equipment. AND I wanted to be *careful*. I could say that in caring I succeeded - those broken bones could have easily been at their necks or at joints. Or for that, their windpipe...
...
Conclusion of my bit chaotic post: a determined and prepared attacker most likely WILL kill you on spot. A less determined and less prepared attacker most likely will at least cut you several times, which may kill you a few minutes later. Even an absolutely unprepared attacker can maim you. Training only serves as a chance to increase your chance.
And one more thing... you can't be really careful at full contact. Wear protection. Or prepare to be sooner or later maimed at least or dead.


----------



## Dwight McLemore (May 26, 2008)

After I sorted through all the 'cheast thumping' this is some pretty sound advice. Particularly this:
_Absolutely and picking up the subtle clues to an attack without the knife showing is essential. We talk and I demonstrate how someone might pull something out regularly and what things you can look for. Even more important though is *just to feel* that iminent attack coming. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

_ When it's all said an done a lot more time should be devoted to this and of course the draw. _

_  Cheast protectors should be added too if your using thrusts with Alluminum Trainers and of course good protective gloves. Got to be careful throwing people into the full contact business too early before they are comfortable with the blade._

_My Best_
_Dwight_


----------



## FieldDiscipline (May 27, 2008)

Kailat, a great post.  I said almost exactly the same things just yesterday.  One of my favourite rants actually...


----------



## MarkBarlow (May 27, 2008)

Tomiki Aikido is the only major aikido system that endorses competition.  Tanto Randori or, knife sparring, is one of their two forms of competing.  Initially, when they first tried this, you could choose to always be the knife attacker or the empty-hand defender.  Very quickly they found that they had to swap up. One round you're the knife, the next you're the defender and they only score the defender.  Seems the knife always wins.

We use chalk on our practice blades and it's always an eye-opener for folks who think they have decent knife defenses to see all the chalk slashes on their dogi after each session.


----------



## SageGhost83 (May 27, 2008)

The OP hit it right out of the park with his assessment. More techs makes the average joe think that they are getting their money's worth, and it makes the instructor look more knowledgable. When it comes to self defense and life threatening situations, KISS is definitely the best in my book. Although, if you are Billy Bad-*** and you can pull off that complicated stuff in the moment, then more power to you.


----------



## Mark Lynn (Jun 18, 2008)

kailat said:


> As I rummage through this forum daily, I am constantly seeing everyone's expression of surviving a knife encounter be it from a grappling, standing, surprise, behind the throat ATTACK!!
> 
> As I have so many mixed emotional and reserved feelings about the majority of these techniques I watch clips, i read threads on what to do, what not to do in these situations. It seems as everyone or every style is trying to re-invent the wheel when it comes to edged weapon conflict.
> 
> ...


 
Good points on expecting to get cut.  However I believe the emphasis you have on knife sparring or knife dueling can be counter productive to teaching self defense.  Knife to knife sparring is actually more like dueling (with swords in the old days) and not something that statiscally people are likely to get into today.

Your rules about what to do when confronted by a knife are great, do you do those type of self defense against a knife scenerios.  I mean like setting out objects and having the person be confronted with an aggressor with a knife and have to grab weapons of opportunity, wrap their arms with a coat etc. etc.  Knife to knife sparring has it's place but I think knife defense against empty hand should take presidence.

Mark


----------



## kailat (Jun 20, 2008)

Wow, coming back to this topic after a while.. LOL forgot I actually posted it.

 Thanks for the comments.  When preparing for a "sparring match" whether you use a aluminum or soft training knife the intent in which we use, is moreso to try to advance to the actual encounter.  RUN at all cost.  We've done scenarios w/ 3 on 1 and one of the three has a knife, to all three having a knife and the single guy being unarmed.  Trying to find holes in the group attacking him and using the run the opposite direction as escape.  Also using the one person back against a wall.. this makes it more agressive.  just different scenerios to mix it up..

 Find the weakest link in the group attacking you and go for him first... Use his knife and hand to defend yourslef as you move out of the crowd and make a HOLE to run in.  

 As its been stated if someone wants to kill you with a knife, chances are he's gonna have a premeditated plan and do so..if not hurt you really bad.  AWARENESS in 360*degree cirlce is the best defense.  Watch your surroundings and those that surround you.  Watch for body language.. Sometimes you don't even have to be a target to get injured if your in the middle of someone elses situation.. 

 The best advice for self defense is simple awareness.. Watch your back at all times...

  My first priority in any argument is watching his eyes, and his hands first and foremost if ever confronted...  Funny cause this past weekend, was at a local bar with some high school buddies.  Had a little "block party" in our town for the kick off of summer celebrations.. My buddy from HS has always been a quick to fight individual and don't care who u are... he just one of those guys.. we all know or have friends like him right?  Well I went to the restroom and as I re-entered the room he was starting some crap w/ this guy for just looking at him wrong.. I am like "jesus" here we go... LOL... I saw this guy and my bud start to swell up and I got in the middle to seperate them and I swear I dont' know how i seen it, but I saw this guy pull back to swing and I just pushed my buddy and ducked my head in the right moment not to get hit...LOL... it was a close call...Luckily others grabbed him before he got his butt stomped... I took my bud outside and calmed him down..Just simple awareness keeps your head on...

 So back to the original post, SURVIVING a blade attack really relies on your ability to recognize the attack and how to deal with it, abruptly.

 When I say using your jacket /shirt etc. wrapping it around your arm for a quick diversion if anything may buy you alot of time, if you have it to buy..   And yes we train using this scenario as well...


----------



## tarzan (Aug 26, 2008)

kailat said:


> E) ALWAYS ATTACK THE EYES, THROAT, GROIN.. Cant see/can't fight, Can't breathe/can't fight Can't stand/Can't fight!!
> !!!


 

COBRA KAI!!!! never say die. 

 anybody anybody 

seriously though, good point!


----------



## dbain (Sep 7, 2008)

You fight like you train....

This is absolutely correct. And headgear gives you a false sense of security and teaches, much like tapping drills, a measure of feigned competence that simply isn't there when you get into the real world. 

Pop in a mouthguard, do it in street clothes, with street shoes, aluminum knives (because you don't miss getting stabbed with an aluminum knife. You can miss a soft knife. Bruises teach, rubber bounces back) and actually GO AT IT. Dojo training is wonderful, but is no substitute for combat training in as real a situation as you can make it without using live knives.

I have a basic premise for learning how to fight, nowhere is it more applicable than with knives: If it didn't hurt, you didn't really learn the lesson. Pain is the most effective, and fastest, teacher of all.

Dealing in knives means you will get cut, probably badly. The goal is to make sure the other guy is cut worse than you are. Never enter a bladed confrontation expecting to come out and drive home. Expect to call 911 as you're bleeding from whatever happened or, at the very least, drive yourself to the hospital to get stitches.  If you walk away with something you can use band-aids or gauze yourself for? GREAT! But that should be presumed to be the exception and not the norm. 

As for situational training in terms of approaches or hidden-knives, you should presume that any encounter is an armed encounter, most notably because you yourself ought to be armed. This aspect of Silat is the basis for understanding combat- always presume a conflict is lethal because of what you don't see or what you haven't seen yet, so end the conflict as quickly as possible.... With whatever means necessary.

The last thing I have to say is on mental preparation. Prepare to kill with that knife. If you're going to get into combat with a blade, understand what it is for: Killing. A blade serves no other purpose than to kill your opponent. You may choose to employ it with a lesser degree of hostility, but that is a choice you may not be able to make in the split second between the start of the aggression and your reaction. Prepare yourself to see blood. Lots of it. Some of it will be yours. Make sure he bleeds more, and faster. 

Don't get into ANY confrontation you don't have to. If there's an exit, TAKE IT. But if you don't, understand the consequences and the actions you have to undertake. Hesitation to do what you need to survive will kill you far easier than the other guy will.

Devon


----------



## tshadowchaser (Sep 7, 2008)

> The winner of a knife fight is the one who leaves alive


 
I agree with that statement
If you deal with knives and practice with live blades you will get cut eventually.  If you are in a knife fight  you most likely will get cut a few times. Learning how to get cut the least and in areas of your body that cause the least damage is important. Multi-faceted pretty looking techniques are not needed, but the simple most direct ones are. Learn to survive, learn to disarm and destroy what is coming at you


----------



## Thems Fighting Words (Mar 12, 2009)

Alright, obviously the cost can be prohibitive but using shock knives (or tasers) is always fun and adds a dose of reality. 

As for why everything has to be so complicated now I days, I blame it on consumerism. People want something new all the time and aren't willing to just "practice till perfect" the same old drills. 

Now for my Rant: "My#aa%#rgh, nur@rrrn, warra 1010011 ga ga ga!" :soapbox:


----------



## chinto (Mar 16, 2009)

look, a sentry removal type attack you will not survive, not if you do not detect it before it gets to you. ( that is kinda the idea behind that kind of thing, kill them quietly.)

that said if attacked by a knife and you see the blade, do what you got to do
survive the attack.  

THE WINNER IS THE ONE STILL BREATHING.


----------

