# the good bad and ugly



## DoxN4cer (Mar 20, 2004)

Hi all,

Take a look at this link, and let's talk about it.

http://www.tracyskarate.com/AmKenpo/baduglyhtm.htm


Tim Kashino


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## Zoran (Mar 21, 2004)

IMHO, not a lot to discuss. There is some truth in the article, but it is biased and paints a whole system and its people with the same brush. There are a lot of very good people in EPAK and I've been welcomed by many without even knowing much about me. The amount of times a ran into a bad seed was not often but those things tend to stick in ones mind more easily than the good.

Also if you read the last paragraph, you can see where the inspiration came from.


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## ShaolinWolf (Mar 21, 2004)

eh, just an opinion and also I don't believe in any of that. Its the stupidest thing for someone to do so. Just because ATA TKD was formed by Grandmaster HU LEE didn't mean he was a 9th degree at the start...he formed it like 30 years ago and he was only moved up to 9th about 20 years later. And that was because he was just plain good and unbeatable and ALL the masters agreed upon his rank. Hmmm...makes it interesting, huh?


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 21, 2004)

Zoran said:
			
		

> IMHO, not a lot to discuss. There is some truth in the article, but it is biased and paints a whole system and its people with the same brush. There are a lot of very good people in EPAK and I've been welcomed by many without even knowing much about me. The amount of times a ran into a bad seed was not often but those things tend to stick in ones mind more easily than the good.
> 
> Also if you read the last paragraph, you can see where the inspiration came from.


From Al Tracy this supposedly post on the web page is from.

Who promoted Mr Tracy? is a question I would I ask if I cared.

The big question, is do I care? History is full of organizations or schools that break up after the leader or head instructor or grandmaster dies or retires. People splt up, and do things differently or have issues with other people that were only held in check by mutual respect of their common instructor. Given the internet and publicity in recent history it makes it much easier to discuss these new organizations.


Now I do have a Questoin for Tim Kashino though.

Tim, Why ask the question?

Were you looking to cause some heated discussions between the EPAK and Tracy groups?

Were you trying to point out the Remy Presas, one of the arts you studied, also did his own thing?

Were you trying to point out that Tom Bolden formed his own organization?

Were you trying to point out that Jerome Barber one of your instructors also left and joined / formed and organization of Kenpo and Arnis?

Given your previous comments that you would like to have positive discussions, I am really looking for the positive light of this.

Tim please educate me on this.

What was your reason for this post?

Thank You
:asian:


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## Tgace (Mar 21, 2004)

Power: "Im the biggest guy here and I call the shots"
Money: Push out/badmouth the competition to get a bigger slice.
Ego: "Im a geek/low self-esteem looser who places so much of my self worth in the Martial Arts that I cant go on without having a position of authority in it."


IMHO the "Big 3" in all this political @#$%


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 21, 2004)

ShaolinWolf said:
			
		

> eh, just an opinion and also I don't believe in any of that. Its the stupidest thing for someone to do so. Just because ATA TKD was formed by Grandmaster HU LEE didn't mean he was a 9th degree at the start...he formed it like 30 years ago and he was only moved up to 9th about 20 years later. And that was because he was just plain good and unbeatable and ALL the masters agreed upon his rank. Hmmm...makes it interesting, huh?






			
				ShaolinWolf said:
			
		

> eh, just an opinion....


Exactly Right, YOUR opinion, and I agree you should have one..... but I totally disagree with you!



			
				ShaolinWolf said:
			
		

> ....he was only moved up to 9th about 20 years later....



Aaaaaaa right?!.... and by whom, may I inquire?



			
				ShaolinWolf said:
			
		

> ....that was because he was just plain good and unbeatable



At what pocket pool?  Come on!!!!!!!  Get real!!!!!!!!



			
				ShaolinWolf said:
			
		

> ALL the masters agreed upon his rank.



What Masters..... where? who? 

Give me a break.


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## DoxN4cer (Mar 21, 2004)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> ... Now I do have a Questoin for Tim Kashino though.
> 
> Tim, Why ask the question?
> 
> ...



The reason for my post? Are you the motive police now? Just looking for other points of view, Rich.  I don't need to educate you. You're already an educated man.  Stop looking so hard, Rich. You're seeing things that aren't there. Take a deep breath, count to ten, hell... have a beer or two. CTFO, man. Are you lacking sleep again?

I did however find it remotely interesting that it was agreed upon by the many high ranking masters in attendance that students cannot promote their instructors. It makes sense that seniors promote juniors, and not the other way around. I suppose that's just my narrow way of thinking though.  

Tim Kashino


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## rmcrobertson (Mar 21, 2004)

Well, on one hand the article seemed to haave several good, if depressing, points.

On the other, the  Lewis Carroll excerpt that opens the article has a number of misquotes in it.

Me, I'm glad that a) I couldn't care less about the Big Picture in kenpo, except as a spectator sport; b) I have enough knowledge, books, and video--and a back yard--to keep me going lifetime.

So, if the Powers That (Wish They Could) Be ever come to control the Whole World of Kenpo, all I have to do is ignore them.


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## Tgace (Mar 21, 2004)

DoxN4cer said:
			
		

> The reason for my post? Are you the motive police now? Just looking for other points of view, Rich. I don't need to educate you. You're already an educated man. Stop looking so hard, Rich. You're seeing things that aren't there. Take a deep breath, count to ten, hell... have a beer or two. CTFO, man.
> 
> I did however found it remotely interesting that it was agreed upon by the many high ranking masters in attendance that students cannot promote their instructors. It makes sense that seniors promote juniors, and not the other way around. I suppose that's just my narrow way of thinking though.
> 
> Tim Kashino


You used to poke large animals with sticks when you were a kid didnt you Tim??


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## DoxN4cer (Mar 21, 2004)

Tgace said:
			
		

> You used to poke large animals with sticks when you were a kid didnt you Tim??



How did you know? He He He. I used to play with matches too.


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 21, 2004)

DoxN4cer said:
			
		

> The reason for my post? Are you the motive police now? Just looking for other points of view, Rich. I don't need to educate you. You're already an educated man. Stop looking so hard, Rich. You're seeing things that aren't there. Take a deep breath, count to ten, hell... have a beer or two. CTFO, man. Are you lacking sleep again?
> 
> I did however find it remotely interesting that it was agreed upon by the many high ranking masters in attendance that students cannot promote their instructors. It makes sense that seniors promote juniors, and not the other way around. I suppose that's just my narrow way of thinking though.
> 
> Tim Kashino


Well Tim as to motive police. The answer is No. I do try to understand though.

I am not lacking sleep and I did have a couple of beers on Friday and Saturday.

As to "The reason for my post? . . . Just looking for other points of view, Rich." This is fine. Just curious.


As to only Seniors promoting Juniors. Then who promoted the first seniors?

Who promoted the seniors that promoted you? and on down the line?

Do I support just anyone being a GM or founder or claiming new arts? No.

So, Tim, we can CTFO if you want. I asked questions just looking for your opinion. And you take it for me attacking you. So, why do you not take your own advice. Drink a beer go to bed and CTFO.  OR am I going to get another phone call from one of the seniors because I have disagreed with you, your opinion by your post, to ask me why I am stating what I am stating or asking what I am asking?

Enjoy your training, I know I do.


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## DoxN4cer (Mar 21, 2004)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Well Tim as to motive police. The answer is No. I do try to understand though.
> 
> I am not lacking sleep and I did have a couple of beers on Friday and Saturday.
> 
> ...



Where you a stand-up philosopher in another life, Rich? 

One can find the negative where ever one looks, especially when you're really looking for it. Once found, it spreads like a contagion. 

 I'm as CTFO'ed as  they come, my friend; no beer necessary. 

It doesn't matter who promoted the first seniors, or how they came to be the first. This sort of questioning is a closed loop of rhetoric. It does't lead anywhere or to anything truly productive, just more rhetoric and discontent. 

I know what you're getting at Rich, but I feel that you contradict yourself in you're above statements.  The two questions you posed are in opposition of the statement that follows them. Going by the philosophy that is posed in those questions you could declare yourself a GM and start handing out rank diplomas. And why not? After all, who promoted the guy that promoted you? What gave him the authority to do so? And so on. It's ridiculous. 

There needs to be (and is) a set of standards that guide certain protcols. Please realize that these are simply customary (and ethical) guidelines for modern practitioners of martial arts. There isn't much you can do if someone chooses to operate outside of these guidelines besides talk about ot and find some kind of common ground, but once the rhetoric starts common ground is lost. 


Tim Kashino


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## Bob Hubbard (Mar 21, 2004)

Is there a point to all this tail chasing gentlemen?

The article refered to here is old.  1999 in fact.
I can think of numerous individuals in a variety of arts who were promoted by either panels of their peers, their students or those outside their organizations.  I can also think of many who were promoted by their friends, cross promoted by 'good-ol-boy' networks or who flat out just printed it themselves.

So, I have to wonder...whats the real point(s)?


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 21, 2004)

DoxN4cer said:
			
		

> Where you a stand-up philosopher in another life, Rich?
> 
> One can find the negative where ever one looks, especially when you're really looking for it. Once found, it spreads like a contagion.
> 
> ...


Other lives I have lived, may have an impact on how I write. I do not deny it 

Ethical and guidelines are all good. Who apoints the leader of a country. Som are kings, and hereditary, others were done by religion, others were done y the strongest man, others were dome in a republic way where the people have representatives choose a leader such as a Prime Minister or even in our case the electorate college. In the PM case those are elected representatives or chosen representatives depending upon the culture. In the case of President, the people vote, and then the electorate college votes. This is representation of the people choosing their leader. Then the leader can assign rank or promote people as (s)he sees fit. Politcal appointments are under review of the new leader, yet the military appointments other than positions such as Joint Chiefs, are not under review of the next new leader. It was and is assumed that those promoted in those ranks had meet the criteria for the new rank and had the respect of their peers and or supperiors or they would not have been received by their new peers. Yet the leader that signs off on the promotion recommendation and the Congress that approves the promotion of said officers are representatives of the people. They were put into place to represent them. So, those Juniors who have no rank and no understanding of the military are the ones signing off and approving the ranks of the officers of the military. Yet, with each new Congress every two years, they do not review each and every officer. They wait for the recommendations of the Military and the and the President, aka Commander and Chief and thereby head of the military, before the approve them. So, our senior most ranks down to that of Ensign or Lieutenant, are approved by the non military, before it is offical, otherwise it is just a field promotion of FRWOC'd.  The senior promotions many times are politcal as well, yet they are also based upon skill and capabilities of the people involved.

So, even though my questiosn may disagree with the statements I made it does not mean the statements were not what I beleived in. The questions were to get you and others to think.

Hence my original question: Why ask it in the first place? Those who fall into the seniors must promote versus those who fall into the organization can elect or promote a leader, have their beliefs. and are not likely to change their minds. And it will drive people to make thier rhetoric posts, and statements of faith and belief. Not everyone will be made happy or even satisfactory.

I did not mean it in a negative manner to question you. I was curious as to your reasoning. i.e. Some grow just from the experience of asking the question. Others grow from debating the question. Others can grow from just listenting to the different points of view, even though they be rhetoric. For in understanding who others think you begin to understand the person themself.

Best Regards
:asian:


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## loki09789 (Mar 21, 2004)

"I'd like to teach the world to sing,
in perfect harmony,
I'd like to buy the world a Coke(...some Coke...some valium)
and keep it company....."

Just because we're paranoid doesn't mean no one is out to get us


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## DoxN4cer (Mar 21, 2004)

Good one Paul!!!

From Rich Parsons: 
"Some grow just from the experience of asking the question. Others grow from debating the question. Others can grow from just listenting to the different points of view, even though they be rhetoric. For in understanding who others think you begin to understand the person themself."

Well said. Real world appointments/promotions come from seniors and are are considered and endorsed by a chain of command/approving authority (seniors higher up than the candidate and his imediate seniors). Comparing congress and their constituents to martial arts organizations falls short in comparison. It's another circle of rhetoric. 

From Bob Hubbard:
"Is there a point to all this tail chasing gentlemen?"

Well, yes there is. I guess you either missed it or want clarification.  Please refer to this:

GRASSHOPPER: "Sifu, how do you know when you are a true master?"
SIFU: "When the other masters set a place for you at their table."

Ot course, I'm nobody. So what should my opinions matter? And why should they get anybody so spun up? I just wanted to see where the coversation would lead.

Tim Kashino


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## Rainman (Mar 21, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> "I'd like to teach the world to sing,
> in perfect harmony,
> I'd like to buy the world a Coke(...some Coke...some valium)
> and keep it company....."
> ...


 :roflmao:  :roflmao:  :roflmao:   

You have my vote for adding valium to some folks dietary supplements.


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## ShaolinWolf (Mar 22, 2004)

Oh Gosh! I didn't mean anything other than I think its stupid that you create a martial Art organization and then put yourself at the top rank if you are a 5th degree and then move yourself up to 9th automatically...GOSH...I get a negative post for typing my opinion and obviously I wasn't clear...I'm sorry but that ticked me off...don't get mad at me, but I got ticked off seeing that because somebody misread my post...I was agreeing that I think its stupid to do what some people do...meaning that they make themselves the highest rank that they can be as soon as possible...I wish the guy/girl who gave me the negative post could take it back...impulsive, aren't you?


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## ShaolinWolf (Mar 22, 2004)

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> Exactly Right, YOUR opinion, and I agree you should have one..... but I totally disagree with you!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And Golden Dragon(giving me a negative was rude!), What I meant by Him being unbeatable was that he was the best in the organization. ATA was first formed, HU Lee was not a 9th degree...then so many years later, the Masters all agreed to move him up to 9th degree because of his skill...he made it up there gradually. And seriously, I was not talking about all arts, I just meant in ATA. I'm sorry, but I am offended by you for tearing up my post and saying that its stupid. I'm talking about the American Taekwondo Association, not YOUR organization. so, where do you get off acting like that?...its all true, so deal with it. 1600 schools all over America, and there are so many out of the country...and one of the top MA organizations in the US.


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 22, 2004)

ShaolinWolf said:
			
		

> I am offended by you for tearing up my post and saying that its stupid



I SAID NO SUCH THING!!!!!!



			
				ShaolinWolf said:
			
		

> 1600 schools all over America




Quantity does not necessarily equate to Quality!!



			
				ShaolinWolf said:
			
		

> Golden Dragon (giving me a negative was rude!)



Why, it's my opinion.... its all true, so deal with it....

 :uhyeah:


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## Chicago Green Dragon (Mar 22, 2004)

I think there are some interesting issues and points in that posting.

But I also feel it is a bit slamming towards certain people it mentioned too. I don't know Ed Parker Jr. personally but from what i have read (I might be wrong so dont hate me) but he studied under Dr Ron Chapel.

Dr Ron Chapel is an incredible kenpo teacher and a man who has been helping to keep the Flame of Parker Kenpo Karate alive and moving forward. Also, I do believe that Ed Parker Jr. did get his black belt from Dr. Chapel who is more then qualified to award that rank. 

As for the awarding of rank I believe in my opinion there are some people out there who have awarded themselves higher rank by forming their own association. I say great for them. That is their choice.

I look at it this way you can be what ever rank you want to be. But, when it comes down to things actions speak louder. I have visited some schools as an observer and they had a high ranking person who didnt seem like someone who should be that rank.

I think that people should do their research and look people and their credentials up. Then go to a few classes to watch and see these people in action. There is a place here in chicago that comes to mind. They have been around for 20 years plus. But, when recently i called to ask to come by and watch a class i was told that is not allowed.
They offered a style that was a combination of a variety of different arts. They said i would have to sign up and pay for a month of classes to see them. But, I was told that they did have a lot of high ranking people teaching the classes. I guess its so good i got to pay to see a glimps. 
That if anything turned me off. I have visited many schools around the country and never been told that i could not sit as an observer to see how a class is done.

I guess its that old adage  "Ancient Chinese Secret" LOL

Chicago Green Dragon

 :asian:


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## ShaolinWolf (Mar 22, 2004)

Right, I agree. I just see alot of McDojo's popping up all over the place. I greatly agree that alot of great schools are opened and organization started by groups who split from other organizations. I just meant that I don't like McDojo's. I agree with Chicago Dragon. And GoldenDragon, you may have not said my post was stupid, but you SURE said just about everything but that.

:asian:


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## ShaolinWolf (Mar 22, 2004)

Yes, Quantity does not equate quality, and obviously with that many schools all over the nation(1600), there must be plenty of sucky schools. I'm just stating that its pretty good that ATA has taken it's standards to higher levels. I know enough schools out there that need help, but the school I go to has pretty high quality.  And I enjoy the variety of MA, along with the set TKD cirriculum. Jujitsu, Aikido, Kickboxing, Pro-tech Weapons Training system, Self Defense, and such. But there are lot of ATA schools out there that do not have such high qualities. Definitely.


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 22, 2004)

DoxN4cer said:
			
		

> From Rich Parsons:
> "Some grow just from the experience of asking the question. Others grow from debating the question. Others can grow from just listenting to the different points of view, even though they be rhetoric. For in understanding who others think you begin to understand the person themself."
> 
> Well said. Real world appointments/promotions come from seniors and are are considered and endorsed by a chain of command/approving authority (seniors higher up than the candidate and his imediate seniors). Comparing congress and their constituents to martial arts organizations falls short in comparison. It's another circle of rhetoric.
> ...


Tim,

My data is a little old, back from the early 90's. I know that many in the Navy were field promoted only based upon their recomendation from their commanding officers and  baord of review. Yet, Congress did not approve any of the promotions, therefore technically they were not complete or recognized or approved of, ..., . The promotions were as low as recognition of Ensign from the Academy or even Lt. j.g. . So, even the lowest officers were not really promoted. They acted with all the rights and priviledges of an officer of the that rank, only it was not official until Congress put their stamp on it.

So, who promotes the four star generals when we do not have  5 star standing around? Who promotes the five star general, since he has no seniors?

Yet, as I said congress is new every two years and they do not go back and review all previous promotions and rank. Yet it is Congress who has the final say no matter how much of a rubber stamp it might appear, it is still there and can be exercised at their will. It was the people who elected the President and the Congress, and they decide who shall be awarded rank and or recognition of status.

Just my opinions and I maybe arguing rhetoric with you. Which still goes back to the beginning of this circle discussion, why would you begin it?

PS:

Paul Martin I do like a coca-cola very now and again.


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## DoxN4cer (Mar 22, 2004)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Tim,
> 
> Which still goes back to the beginning of this circle discussion, why would you begin it?



Please refer to the last line of my last post.


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## DoxN4cer (Mar 22, 2004)

"Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?"

War


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 22, 2004)

DoxN4cer said:
			
		

> Please refer to the last line of my last post.


Yes, I saw it, thank you for the redirect or the circle back.

You were the one who brought forth the circlular arguement discussion about my post. And I replied that my questions were not my opinion that followed. As you pointed out they contradicted each other.


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 22, 2004)

DoxN4cer said:
			
		

> "Why can't we be friends?
> Why can't we be friends?
> Why can't we be friends?"
> 
> War


Nice Quote


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## Tgace (Mar 22, 2004)

http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/blackbelt/1992/dec92/political/political.html


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 22, 2004)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Power: "Im the biggest guy here and I call the shots"
> Money: Push out/badmouth the competition to get a bigger slice.
> Ego: "Im a geek/low self-esteem looser who places so much of my self worth in the Martial Arts that I cant go on without having a position of authority in it."
> 
> ...


 
Nice thoughts and ideas.


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## DoxN4cer (Mar 22, 2004)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Nice Quote



Damn good song.


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 22, 2004)

Tgace said:
			
		

> http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/blackbelt/1992/dec92/political/political.html


 
Hmmm why can we not get along?

Not sure why? We were placed on opposite sides because I was not on his side at the beginning. I asked him to join out of offered friendship and peace offering on my part.

Yet, I thought we had come far enough to ask these types of questions, with out being told to CTFO or in essence being told off. I replied to a post in a questioning format. And I was the bad guy, when the original poster claims he only wished to see where it went. I nice political or psychological study if you were to review it and to know all the parties first hand?

Yet in the process, have I gone through and given negative karma? No, I prefer to address my points here in public. I prefer to ask the questions to better understand and to maybe just grow in the process.

I have not sworn except to repeat the original quote to me that included CTFO. I have not insulted people by calling them small or little minded, or narrow minded, or closed minded. I have asked questions and tried to reply to others.

Have my questions insulted everyone?

Have my questions insulted anyone?

For you see that was not my intent, it may have been the impact, as everyone seems to be looking for something hidden. I admit, I ask the questions to better understand for I could see something hidden. Yet to assume something bad of a person just off the start, is not a good way of addressing issues or trying to grow. So, I ask the questions to better understand.


Let me ask you all what do you think of this?

I make the statement that the sky is blue.

Comments?

So, if I have insulted or caused anyone to question their beliefs of to feel threatened, for that I apologize.



PS: Tgace qeustion? What is my motive for the politics? Why would I not want Tim K and Paul M and you here? Why would I not want you all to express your point of views? I ask as your provided the link to the politics thread and also posted the BIG 3 of politics. Thank You


Best Regards
:asian:


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## Tgace (Mar 22, 2004)

*The Newbie Guide to Martial Arts Doublespeak*



When people say...
_They really mean..._ 

Japanese martial arts are the best.
_I practice a Japanese art._ 

This art is thousands of years old.
_This style is decades old._ 

The martial arts are about building better people.
_The martial arts are about sweat, bruises and money._ 

Chinese martial arts are the best.
_I practice a Chinese martial art._ 

High kicks are stupid.
_I can't do high kicks._ 

Sparring is extremely important.
_I'm good at fighting and I like it and I can't do much of anything else._ 

The martial arts are about building better people.
_The martial arts are about beating people up if they lay a finger on you._ 

Korean martial arts are the best.
_I practice a Korean martial art._ 

Breaking techniques are very important.
_We do a lot of breaking techniques._ 

I don't believe in grades.
_Nobody ever gave me a high grade._ 

The martial arts are about building better evolved characters.
_Like me._ 

Filipino martial arts are the best.
_I practice a Filipino martial art._ 

Sophisticated arts like Tai Chi and Aikido are far superior.
_Sparring frightens me._ 

He's a good martial arts teacher.
_He's in my organization._ 

He's a lousy martial arts teacher.
_He used to be in my organization but he broke away and I don't get any money out of him anymore._ 

My style is the best.
_I don't know anything about any other styles._ 

Grades are not important.
_There's a grading coming up and it's important._ 

Breaking techniques are useless.
_I can't do breaking techniques._ 

I'm an innovative, free-thinking, modern Western martial arts teacher, doing my own non-classical thing.
_I'm more interested in teaching than learning; and the Orientals ignore me because they know how ignorant I am._ 

Martial arts politics are the necessary result of official recognition by respectable associations to protect the public.
_I belong to a large, well-established organization._ 

I hate martial arts politics.
_None of the large, well-established organizations recognize me or have the slightest interest in my existence._ 

In this system, we make the art fit the person.
_In this system, we make the person fit the art._ 

Competitions are a waste of time.
_I never won any competitions._ 

Forms or kata are the highest expression of the inner essence of the martial arts.
_I read that somewhere -- and I've had enough of tournaments._ 

Forms or kata are useless.
_Bruce Lee said forms are useless and this relieves me of a lot of effort, so go argue with him._ 

One style is not better than another -- it's the individual that counts.
_Don't go to another school--it's the style we teach here that counts._ 

The techniques aren't important.
_The techniques are important._ 

The principles are important.
_I wouldn't know what else to do with the principles so it's the techniques that are important._ 

Bruce Lee didn't know what he was talking about.
_I don't know what Bruce Lee was talking about._ 

Size and strength are not important.
_Size and strength are important, especially if you're fighting somebody who's bigger and stronger than you are._ 

Science and leverage will always win out over brute force.
_Except when he's bigger and stronger than you are._ 

The purpose of the martial arts is spiritual development and liberation from the ego.
_I'm so humble and wise, it's terrific._ 

*Requirements for 11th Degree Black Belt*


Well before testing for this rank any experienced Taekwondo teacher should have already learned these basic techniques:
Escape from Dojang (Training Hall): The quick exit to avoid clean up and helping with the pads.
Sleeper Stance: Standing at the corner of the dojang pretending to be observing the students as they sweat with exhaustion.
Sigh of Wisdom: Sudden, forceful exhalation when a beginning student unexpectedly survives a dangerous high kick without injury.
Crossing Fingers: A hopeful posture used when a student has been beaten senseless.
Gift of Instruction: The act of taking credit whenever a student wins a tournament or performs a technique correctly.
Seeing Without Seeing: The dazed look of amazement given to the student who asks a stupid question.
Mugger's Defense: Offering to lighten the student's wallet to reduce the risk of confrontation.
Instructor's Downfall: Failing to ask for enough money to keep the dojang open.
Further requirements: Must be able to walk on water (while it is in liquid form).
Must be able to disable a man using only a Kleenex tissue as a weapon.
Must be able to make up meaningless Zen sayings on the spot.
Must be able to catch a fly with chopsticks.
Must be able to defeat multiple masked ninja movie warriors after they disclose their evil plans to you and leave you to die in an easily escapable situation.
Must be able to voice over a Godzilla movie properly (i.e. coordination between the movement of the lips and the voice).
Must be able to take a bullet (not in the chest of course but maybe in the foot or something).
Must be able to make your own nuclear device with a piece of bubble gum, a pencil, some coconuts, and an alarm clock.
Must be able to change into a dobuk in a phone booth at any given moment.
Must be able to sing Karaoke.
Must be able to use nature to your advantage (e.g. sick a dog on the enemy, throw stones at him, climb a tree and hide...)
Must be able to fight blindfolded and win (against blind competitors of course).
Must have completed a course in "Basic Samurai Sushi".
Must be able to choreograph street fights for Jackie Chan movies.
Must be able to use an opponent's skill as a reason for defeat.
Must be able to keep all bleeding internal.
Must be able to trim an entire forest into a bonsai garden in 25 minutes or less.
Note: Laughing at any time will disqualify the potential 11th dan. If a member of the Senior Board of Examiners makes a comment and then waits expectantly, it may be an indication that he has just made a joke. A half-smile may be tried at this time, but in no other instance.
blatantly stolen from
http://yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au/groups/taekwondo/funnies.html


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## Tgace (Mar 22, 2004)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> PS: Tgace qeustion? What is my motive for the politics? Why would I not want Tim K and Paul M and you here? Why would I not want you all to express your point of views? I ask as your provided the link to the politics thread and also posted the BIG 3 of politics. Thank You
> 
> 
> Best Regards
> :asian:


Are you involved in this "promotional politics" stuff? I personally have no stake (and very little knowledge of the stuff you guys are talking about) in any of this...just tossing my political/philosophical $.02 in.


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 22, 2004)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Are you involved in this "promotional politics" stuff? I personally have no stake (and very little knowledge of the stuff you guys are talking about) in any of this...just tossing my political/philosophical $.02 in.


Well no I am not involved per se with the promotional stuff on a personal level.

I have not been promoted, nor assumed any rank. And when / if that occurs it will be my senior instructor with whom I am still very much affiliated with.


you did post


> Originally Posted by *Tgace*
> _Power: "Im the biggest guy here and I call the shots"
> Money: Push out/badmouth the competition to get a bigger slice.
> Ego: "Im a geek/low self-esteem looser who places so much of my self worth in the Martial Arts that I cant go on without having a position of authority in it."
> ...


_ 
I am 6'3" and an engineer which means big geek and as an Admin I could push people out.   See, no matter how you might mean something people can take it wrong.

So, the point I am making is that I did not mean to be the enemy, and yet it was perceived to be.
:asian: 
_


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## Tgace (Mar 22, 2004)

If you think that post was directed at you...it wasnt. Its just my opinion of where fighting over stuff as trivial as this really originates from. IMHO some 19 y.o E-1 private getting shot at in Iraq deserves more respect in my eyes than who is or isnt a 9th,10th 234th Dan in "WhoGivesa@#$% Jutsu".


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 22, 2004)

Tgace said:
			
		

> If you think that post was directed at you...it wasnt. Its just my opinion of where fighting over stuff as trivial as this really originates from. IMHO some 19 y.o E-1 private getting shot at in Iraq deserves more respect in my eyes than who is or isnt a 9th,10th 234th Dan in "WhoGivesa@#$% Jutsu".


I did not think it was directed at, me I was making a smiley to let you know that, I was thinking it was made to be an addition to the discussion. Yet it did give me a lead into how anyone can take anything from anyone and see demons.


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## Tgace (Mar 22, 2004)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> I did not think it was directed at, me I was making a smiley to let you know that, I was thinking it was made to be an addition to the discussion. Yet it did give me a lead into how anyone can take anything from anyone and see demons.


Thats cool with me :supcool:


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## loki09789 (Mar 23, 2004)

As far as the text is concerned, it is bias - as all things will be.

I think the problem with some Martial Org. Promotions is the confusion of percieved leadership criteria and martial arts rank.

Most MA org. work from the position that the most highly ranked artist should be the 'leader' as if we were some clan or tribe were the king is the winner of the joust.  The problem is that, with current training practices, high ranking MArtists are NOT being groomed or trained as leaders like they were in warrior classes or military organizations.  Hell, some intructional programs don't even include training as instructors - they only learn by doing with very little formal educational training.  Internship and copying what others do is not professional instructor training.  Teaching/Leadership is a separate set of skills - as it is taught in the current practices - from martial skill.

Martial Rank is normally based on skill and performance assessments.  That can only be assessed by those who are Higher ranked/superior in skill and performance than the candidate being tested for promotion.

Now, the appointment of a CEO or Leader by a board of directors based on his character, leadership and administrative skills does make sense.  I would say that a board could agree/appoint a leader, but then you have the disparity of highest org. authority being other than the highest ranked/skilled artists.

If part of the criteria for leadership appointment is martial skill and rank in an organization it should be part of the formal instruction/assessment, that is well done in most MA groups.  BUT if leadership and instructional skill is part of the RANK promotion it should be just as clearly and formally laid out for instruction and clearly tested and assessed as skill is tested.   There should be a baseline of philosophy, teaching strategies should be outlined and taught formally, as well as planning and implementing class management strategies... Military leadership programs would be an effective model, though with adaptation for your particular principles and goals.

It it illogical for people to think that just because a MArtist is skilled at kicking and punching/artistic understanding that they will be an effective leader.  It is also a weakness on the part of MArtists to assume that the Rankest (oops) artist has been groomed for leadership.


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## tshadowchaser (Mar 23, 2004)

We now return to regularly schuelded disscussion on the original post


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## parkerkarate (Mar 23, 2004)

I totally resent the idea of not having any degree of black belt before the age of 18. Some people such as myself got their first degree when they were 16. But the rest are just some pretty bad opinions.


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## loki09789 (Mar 25, 2004)

parkerkarate said:
			
		

> I totally resent the idea of not having any degree of black belt before the age of 18. Some people such as myself got their first degree when they were 16. But the rest are just some pretty bad opinions.



I understand the frustration you are expressing.  Consider this from the overall good point of view though (not saying it is my position, only trying to give an alternate view):

There are some pretty devistating things that students can learn at the BB level in Kenpo.  Morally, if the skill and lethality of a BB can be compared to a gun, an age limit on promotion is about the same as the age requirement for firearms purchase/pistol permit issuing.

Even the alternative of issuing 'Junior BB' rank could be just a paper tiger rank to make younger students feel better because once they reach the appropriate age in most programs with this type of rank, they convert to a brown belt and have complete the 'adult program' anyway.

It might be frustrating because you have demonstrated the maturity/responsibility for 'adult' promotion, but consider the responsibility/liability of the overall program.


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## jeffkyle (Mar 25, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> I understand the frustration you are expressing.  Consider this from the overall good point of view though (not saying it is my position, only trying to give an alternate view):
> 
> There are some pretty devistating things that students can learn at the BB level in Kenpo.  Morally, if the skill and lethality of a BB can be compared to a gun, an age limit on promotion is about the same as the age requirement for firearms purchase/pistol permit issuing.
> 
> ...



Very good point.  iMo.


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## Blindside (Mar 25, 2004)

> There are some pretty devistating things that students can learn at the BB level in Kenpo. Morally, if the skill and lethality of a BB can be compared to a gun, an age limit on promotion is about the same as the age requirement for firearms purchase/pistol permit issuing.



To play devils advocate here, say you don't promote until 18, and your student keeps practicing.  So now you have a first brown with 2 years of experience.  What is so deadly about the test, or for that matter the next set of extensions/techniques that the student will learn?  We teach a chop (sorry, handsword) to the throat at yellow belt.  If you truly wanted to argue this, you should argue that the student shouldn't BEGIN training until they are 18, which would promptly put 99% of commercial schools right out of business.

I am not a supporter of kiddie karate, but being 16 is not a child.  In fact, it is far deadlier to give a driving license to a 16 year old than it will ever be to give a black belt.

Lamont


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## loki09789 (Mar 25, 2004)

Blindside said:
			
		

> To play devils advocate here, say you don't promote until 18, and your student keeps practicing.  So now you have a first brown with 2 years of experience.  What is so deadly about the test, or for that matter the next set of extensions/techniques that the student will learn?  We teach a chop (sorry, handsword) to the throat at yellow belt.  If you truly wanted to argue this, you should argue that the student shouldn't BEGIN training until they are 18, which would promptly put 99% of commercial schools right out of business.
> 
> I am not a supporter of kiddie karate, but being 16 is not a child.  In fact, it is far deadlier to give a driving license to a 16 year old than it will ever be to give a black belt.
> 
> Lamont



Like I said, it was a posit for exposure to an alternate view, not necessarily my opinion.  In the eyes of the law, liability and collateral liability of the day, 16 is a minor, which means that the legal adults who are responsible for their welfare and education are partly responsible for the education/accoutability/actions.  Teachers in public schools fall under the heading of 'geographical parents' or 'in locus parenti' (if I have the latin correctly).

By itself, a 'no black belt under 18 policy' is a cop out.  But, if it is a policy within a sound ideology of moral considerations, the curriculum for minor students - with or without a junior BB program - would have to be modified so that it was developmentally appropriate for children.  This might mean that an instructor would eliminate certain techniques/drills/forms that he deems inappropriate for a minor student.  When the student is of the appointed age, 18 based on the discussion - but not necessarily only 18 because some award Adult BB's at 16 - the adult components of the program would be reinserted, trained and upon meeting quality standards the junior BB, or former minor Brown Blt, would be award an adult BB.

When I begin teaching my son to use firearms, it will be fundamentally based.  Basic marksmanship, safety, muzzle awareness.... and then for sportsmanship:  hunting, clay/skeet shooting, and so on.  I wouldn't think it would be appropriate to introduce him to dynamic/self defense shooting until he was of legal age to do so.  He might be capable of lethal force, but because I would be modeling the example of responsible progressions and responsibility in each progression, I know that I would be doing the best I could to demonstrate/teach a moral and ethical practices within a framework.  

At the minimal level of motivation, it would be more defensible if I were being suspected/sued/charged for colateral liability if a minor student were to get in trouble using something I showed him.


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## parkerkarate (Mar 25, 2004)

I do know how devistating these techniques can be such as Peircing Lance and Twisted Twig. I know how dangerous they are also. Therefore I know not to go up against either of these weapons unless there is absolutely no other choice, unless I know that it is either do or die. Now I am 20 years old. But at that age, yes I did not totally understand how overkillish (I know that is not a word) and how deadly alot of those techinques are. It was not my fault that I was put into the adult program, I was too big for the other teenagers. But now that I have gone back and actually analized what the heck I am doing I totally agree with your view point. But as you said I did show maturity and reponsibilty therefore my instructor decided I was ready. Trust me I have not taken a belt test that I have not been confortable doing or that my instructor said not to. If that makes sense. There are other young adults and teenagers that are getting the same degrees that I am. Just at the last WKKA camp two of my good freinds tested for their adult black belts. One is 14 and the other is 17. So as you can see we are showing that we are ready to take the responsibility if getting these adult black belt degrees and also to pass our knowledge onto lower belts. Adults and children. I am not mad, just frusturated. And there is no way that I would ever give up going for my Third degree black belt in the near future because I have come this far an I am not going to turn back. But thank you for your opinion.


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## loki09789 (Mar 26, 2004)

parkerkarate said:
			
		

> But as you said I did show maturity and reponsibilty therefore my instructor decided I was ready.
> 
> One is 14 and the other is 17. So as you can see we are showing that we are ready to take the responsibility if getting these adult black belt degrees and also to pass our knowledge onto lower belts. Adults and children.



And, I truly believe that not only did you show the intrinsic qualities of maturity and responsibility, but that you developed better maturity and responsibility because of the 'adult' expectations that were placed on you in the program.  Congrads to all of you.

Childhood has been extended for so long in our culture that it is ridiculous.  I remember a National Geo special about an indiginous tribe in Indonesia where a 7 year old carried a machete blade everywere and was encouraged to chop wood and use it for practical reasons.  On the video, he demonstrated the subtle control of that machete to stop in mid swing to avoid his toddler little sister who walked into the blade path while he was chopping on a log.  

I think children and adults alike have a tendency to rise or fall to standards that are consistently reinforced standards -high or low.  Think about the phenomenon of how a top rated sports team will loose to a lower level team on occasion because they 'played down' to the other teams level, or - more realistically - the lower level team 'played up' to the higher level team.  Both teams responded to the environmental 'standard' that they percieved.  One team percieved that they didn't have to work so hard, the other rose to the occasion.

Today, we have 'children' the same age as soldiers of the American Rev./Civil War who are not responsible/accoutable.  That has as much to do with societal perceptions impose on them that they are just 'kids' as it has to do with the 'problem with kids nowadays.'

I do think that Martial Arts training - in a solid program, along with outdoors hobbies (rock climbing, hunting, fishing....) along with community service activies (volunteerism in some capacity even through Boyscouts, church groups), jobs (part time/full time - only during the summer ) and sports programs all contribute the necessary responsibility/accountability development of younger people.  

Unfortunately, in our culture today all of this is deemed 'good training for the real world' which only leaves the perception in young people that they have no contributions to make - and we wonder why 18-29 year olds are the lowest voting demographic.  We have told them they are powerless, so they don't take charge of the power they do have.


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