# The Guard



## MJS (Sep 4, 2007)

When the UFC first started, we saw Royce pretty much dominate everyone on the ground.  He'd clinch and pull guard or get the mount.  The person seemed like they were pretty much helpless.  Royce waited until they tired themselves out and moved in for the kill.  Nobody had a clue what to do in the guard.

Fastforward to present.  Watch 2 fighters in the guard and you really don't see too much control.  Mostly you see alot of G&P, which of course works.

My question is:  Is this what it takes to beat the guard, just G&P?  I mean, you don't really see the fighters of today able to do too much control, compared to Royce.  

Mike


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## Tez3 (Sep 4, 2007)

G&P is not much use in amateur and semi pro fights where one is not allowed to strike to the head and body shots aren't that powerful so I'd disagree that fighters don't do much to break guard these days. In fact I think they do more than ever.I suspect this is a UFC thing again whereas grassroots MMA is more vibrant and possible more technical.  I watched several fighters either break guard or use it to go for submissions the other night on a fight night I was judging on.

There are a lot of techniques to break the guard, one of my favourites is to place hands on their hips and press elbows into their thighs when the go to open guard you can place one of your knees on their inner thigh and transition in side control.

Another is to posture up, squat up so you are on your feet, lean back grabbing ankle and then sit back with ankle lock on.

Of course you can slam!

You can, if you are careful push one leg over your head, there is a danger of a triangle so make sure you posture up and do it quickly.

There really are loads more ways whch I see used reguarly in training and in fights.


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## Andrew Green (Sep 4, 2007)

G&P has its flaws, hence the standups.  Royce won, but under modern rules the fights might have been different, a lot of what he did was essentially stalling and forcing the other guy to burn energy and make mistakes.  He also had that gi of his, which kept things less slippery...

I'd also say you still see control, just not one sided like it was then.  He knew how to tie them up, they didn't know how to avoid that and control him.

As for beating guard.  Ground and pound works, some people got it down to a art.  Ortiz in your guard is gonna mean a beat up face.  It's not the only one, passing is still done, but in MMA passing usually means punching to create the opportunity.  The standard grappling passes will usually get your face punched.  Standing up and out is also a option, depending on where you think your strengths are compared to theirs.  Leglocks are there, but you have to sacrifice your position to attempt it, so they are a risky move.


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## Tez3 (Sep 5, 2007)

Andrew Green said:


> G&P has its flaws, hence the standups. Royce won, but under modern rules the fights might have been different, a lot of what he did was essentially stalling and forcing the other guy to burn energy and make mistakes. He also had that gi of his, which kept things less slippery...
> 
> I'd also say you still see control, just not one sided like it was then. He knew how to tie them up, they didn't know how to avoid that and control him.
> 
> As for beating guard. Ground and pound works, some people got it down to a art. Ortiz in your guard is gonna mean a beat up face. It's not the only one, passing is still done, but in MMA passing usually means punching to create the opportunity. The standard grappling passes will usually get your face punched. Standing up and out is also a option, depending on where you think your strengths are compared to theirs. Leglocks are there, but you have to sacrifice your position to attempt it, so they are a risky move.


 

There's no doubt GnP works but as I said only in pro fights. Our pro fighters have gone up through the amateur and semi pro fights before turning pro rules so are very well versed in techniques that will work with out being punched in the head.

I'm guessing as had been said before the majority of Americian MMA fighters come from a wrestling backgound if they've done groundwork as opposed to BJJ with ours so passing the guard is not so familiar to them perhaps.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Sep 6, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> There's no doubt GnP works but as I said only in pro fights. Our pro fighters have gone up through the amateur and semi pro fights before turning pro rules so are very well versed in techniques that will work with out being punched in the head.
> 
> I'm guessing as had been said before the majority of Americian MMA fighters come from a wrestling backgound if they've done groundwork as opposed to BJJ with ours so passing the guard is not so familiar to them perhaps.


 
This is a hell of a guess.  I'm not going into specfics about names and numbers but of the MMA fighters I personally know or have met I can't think of any these days that don't have experience with BJJ or an offshoot.  Wrestling backgrounds are in the minority compared to BJJ backgrounds among the MMA crowd I know here in the states.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Sep 6, 2007)

Andrew Green said:


> G&P has its flaws, hence the standups. Royce won, but under modern rules the fights might have been different, a lot of what he did was essentially stalling and forcing the other guy to burn energy and make mistakes. He also had that gi of his, which kept things less slippery...
> 
> I'd also say you still see control, just not one sided like it was then. He knew how to tie them up, they didn't know how to avoid that and control him.
> 
> As for beating guard. Ground and pound works, some people got it down to a art. Ortiz in your guard is gonna mean a beat up face. It's not the only one, passing is still done, but in MMA passing usually means punching to create the opportunity. The standard grappling passes will usually get your face punched. Standing up and out is also a option, depending on where you think your strengths are compared to theirs. Leglocks are there, but you have to sacrifice your position to attempt it, so they are a risky move.


 
Bingo.


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## Tez3 (Sep 6, 2007)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> This is a hell of a guess. I'm not going into specfics about names and numbers but of the MMA fighters I personally know or have met I can't think of any these days that don't have experience with BJJ or an offshoot. Wrestling backgrounds are in the minority compared to BJJ backgrounds among the MMA crowd I know here in the states.


 

Most of the posts I have contributed to on here or have read about MMA in the States stress wrestling as being the primary sport for MMAers. Only going on what they say.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Sep 7, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> *Most of the posts I have contributed to on here* or have read about MMA in the States stress wrestling as being the primary sport for MMAers. *Only going on what they say*.


 
I haven't gotten that impression reading forums and I live here in the states. Your opinion and hypothesis is your own. No harm, no fowl. However, wrestling is A major sport (among the MMA crowd) and many interested in MMA here are in fact wrestlers looking for a competitive outlet for their wrestling (that's how Randy Couture, Mark Kerr, Mark Coleman, Tito Ortiz, etc. got interested depending on which interviews you watch or read). But......stretching many to most is just that..stretching...especially if it's based on posts you read here by a handful of people. Not to mention today there is at least a BJJ school in every state with enrollment that trumps the small wrestling programs found in many states high schools and colleges here. Look in the ads in the states and you'll see countless people teaching BJJ.....you only really hear about wrestling in high schools and colleges. You hear wrestling in the states you think Iowa and the midwest. You say many and I'm with ya, you say most and I say not a chance. Wrestling just is not as big as BJJ here....right now. BJJ is still the latest craze here as far as martial arts go...just like Judo was before, followed by karate and kung fu, followed by, ninjitsu, followed by........

But, your opinion is your own...but I'd base a general statement of MOST on more than *reading a few posts on a forum from across an ocean.*

Best in training to you, all the best.


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## Tez3 (Sep 7, 2007)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> I haven't gotten that impression reading forums and I live here in the states. Your opinion and hypothesis is your own. No harm, no fowl. However, wrestling is A major sport (among the MMA crowd) and many interested in MMA here are in fact wrestlers looking for a competitive outlet for their wrestling (that's how Randy Couture, Mark Kerr, Mark Coleman, Tito Ortiz, etc. got interested depending on which interviews you watch or read). But......stretching many to most is just that..stretching...especially if it's based on posts you read here by a handful of people. Not to mention today there is at least a BJJ school in every state with enrollment that trumps the small wrestling programs found in many states high schools and colleges here. Look in the ads in the states and you'll see countless people teaching BJJ.....you only really hear about wrestling in high schools and colleges. You hear wrestling in the states you think Iowa and the midwest. You say many and I'm with ya, you say most and I say not a chance. Wrestling just is not as big as BJJ here....right now. BJJ is still the latest craze here as far as martial arts go...just like Judo was before, followed by karate and kung fu, followed by, ninjitsu, followed by........
> 
> But, your opinion is your own...but I'd base a general statement of MOST on more than *reading a few posts on a forum from across an ocean.*
> 
> Best in training to you, all the best.


 

Fine, excuse me for even thinking anything. I shan't bother telling you that I also speak to many American fighters, among them Chuck Lidell and American fighters we've had on our promotions and who visit us regularly. In fact I shan't even bother posting on your American MMA forum. I wouldn't want you thinking I was narrow minded.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Sep 11, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> Fine, excuse me for even thinking anything. I shan't bother telling you that I also speak to many American fighters, among them Chuck Lidell and American fighters we've had on our promotions and who visit us regularly. In fact I shan't even bother posting on your American MMA forum. I wouldn't want you thinking I was narrow minded.


 
Actually my point was that you made a blanket statement without much meat to support it. You said what you thought about most MMA'ers here in the US and then said you based it only on what you read here from another country. I said you might want to base it on more than just that because the forums are a very small community and by no means represents even close to most. Now you say you also base it on other factors. Go figure. Think all you want. I only responded because I've read many of your posts and you offer an intelligent discussion. I just disagree here based on my personal experiences and acquaintances. Take it for what it's worth, am I not allowed to disagree and tell you exactly why I disagree? I didn't name call or insult you and you took offense and apparently so did "rutherford" for me telling you my point and back it up with exactly why I felt that way. Do what you do and think what you will...we are all individuals, I'll not disagree with you anymore for wanting to avoid the impression I'm insulting you, it's not worth it and not my intention.

As I stated previously in sincere good will...all the best to you.

Salute. :asian:


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Sep 11, 2007)

Update.  After PM'ing Rutherford it's told to me that my posts on this thread were coming off as condescending.  I've re-read my posts and still don't see it but the intention is never as important as the perception.  That WAS NOT my intention and so I sincerely, humbly and publically apologize to Tez.

:asian:


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