# a punch out of the blue



## muayThaiPerson (Sep 16, 2002)

today at school, i saw a fight at school. these 2 guys were arguing and one just hit the other out of nowhere.  the guy who got  hit started to stare at him eye to eye for 2 seconds then got hit again. then he was attacked again until he was on the floor. in my opinion, this guy was probalbly stunned. i thought to myself, if that was me, what would i do? should i react instantly or get into stance?

i always watch out for these types of things. any trouble and ill avoid it at its early stage. but some ppl just like to continue...and eventually, it gets down to a fight


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## tonbo (Sep 16, 2002)

I would say that, after you got hit, you would have one of two options (assuming you were still standing and had not been knocked out):

1)  Hit back and continue the fight, or 
2)  Walk away from the fight

Depending on a multitude of factors, either could work.  However, I personally think that I would *shoot* for #2 and just try to walk away.  If the other guy is so frustrated that he is going to start swinging, then the chances of talking to change his mind are seemingly pretty slim.  Time to diffuse the situation, if possible.

Again, however, it's going to depend on the situation.

If you *have* to react with a counter, I wouldn't suggest getting into stance--use the element of surprise to your advantage.  Respond quickly as possible, and use as little as possible.  This kind of situation calls for *stopping* the other guy, not killing or maiming him.  Perhaps a joint-lock, or something similar.  Not worth breaking bones or poking eyes out over, I would think.  Your response would have to depend on your training.

Anyway, I'm starting to ramble again, so I'll stop.....

Peace--


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## Kirk (Sep 16, 2002)

Where was your instructor when this happened?  The other
students?  Why was more than one punch even allowed by
those present?  Has any action been taken after the fact?


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## Blindside (Sep 16, 2002)

Kirk, I don't think he is talking about his martial arts school.

I can easily see this happening in the halls of my old high school.

Lamont


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## Humble artist (Sep 16, 2002)

You mean martial art school or other?
I first got the idea it was not MA school?

If they both were arguing,it could be that they agreed to clash at each other at some level unless the victim was trying to calm him down.
If he kept arguing,he probably did a mistake for doing that.
If we now suppose that he was trying to break out of the situation which would be martial artist´s true choise.
He should talk calmly and without emotions blocking his way.
He should make clear he does not want to fight,this is even more beneficial if there are other people around witnessing the situation.
He should be aware and keep his zone of safety.
If needed,he could assume neutral,non-offending defense stance (bring his hands up for guard,palms facing opponent,no fist formed,one foot stepped back to give lesser target and offer protection and root)
If opponent telegraphs an attack,which involves rushing to approach him reaching his personal space,start swinging near him (this could be if he misses or does it out of anger),or lifts his hand up for a strike,grabs etc.
In that point he should defend himself immediately without hesitating,which means taking him out in a way or another.
Some arts teach one to always land the first hit for element of surprise or safety.That first punch that lands may decide who is going to walk away.

Just some of my tips.


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## Kirk (Sep 16, 2002)

Oh, my bad, I ***-U-MEd he meant M.A. School.  In THAT case,
once the intent was made that he was looking for a fight, I don't
think walking away in a sense that he should've turned his back
on him would be a good idea.  Just my opinion.


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## tonbo (Sep 16, 2002)

You make a good point, Kirk.

I wouldn't necessarily turn my back on the guy, since I wouldn't want to be whupped on the backside of my head.  However, I would still try to "walk away" in the general sense, i.e., get out of the situation without trading strikes, if at all possible.

I'd rather not fling fists over schoolyard-type situations.  They just ain't worth it.

Peace--


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## muayThaiPerson (Sep 16, 2002)

i meant high school

so doing a disabling or teach-a-lesson move without severly injuring the guy would be the best answer. then let him go. IMO, i think beating the guy up would be a tough guy act, but doing a move and letting him go would seem like a "peaceful but dont mess with me" act:asian:


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## Angus (Sep 16, 2002)

How would hitting back be peaceful?

If I were in the situation, which I wouldn't be, I would get back up, walk right up to the guy (hands at chest level NOT in a fist to protect myself from any further punches) and tell him NEVER to do that again. You say it with enough strength and they'll never do it again. I doubt I'd attack him back unless I really feared for my life. Pride is one thing, a lawsuit is another.


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## tonbo (Sep 16, 2002)

I wouldn't say that a "don't mess with me" move would be the best answer.  What would probably work best would be to keep blocking anything that the guy throws, if you can't walk away.  

I hate to be corny and bring this up, but I feel it is a pretty good way to put it.  There is a statement from one of the masters at the Shaolin temple, where Kwai Chang Kane is studying in the (original) movie "Kung Fu".  It goes something like this:

"Avoid, rather than check.  Check, rather than hurt.  Hurt, rather than maim.  Maim, rather than kill.  For all life is sacred, nor can any be replaced."

In a schoolyard, you should be able to get away at least somewhat decently.  If not, try to block and call attention to the situation (bullies are like cockroaches--they hate the attention).  If all this fails, *then* use a *very* controlled move--something just to briefly incapacitate--to say "please don't".  Only if it gets seriously threatening should return striking be used.

As has been said.....lose pride before face a lawsuit, or injury yourself.  

Peace--


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## MartialArtist (Sep 16, 2002)

I doubt muay thai has enough experience to just be like those kung fu people on TV who block everything with one hand.  It takes a lot of skill and if I remember, muaythaiperson is rather new to the art.

Just be assertive and tell him not to do it again.  If he comes back, that's up to you, but the best way to settle it is without fighting.


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## muayThaiPerson (Sep 16, 2002)

woulnt it be self defense to hit back? the lawsuit isnt right


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## redfive (Sep 16, 2002)

Well I hate to say it, but in high school I used to hate the guys who would start trouble and then get in your face and stare at you. So I would have to say that the guy who hit first did a fine job. If your going to fight do it right. If the other guy was not ready, well then thats his fault. He should not have stared the other kid down. Just try that with your pet cat. The cats going to jump you, at least all mine do. But as for being on the recieving end of the punch. If you can't block it in time, then you roll with the punch, count your losses and return fire. If I hit someone and they picked there self up and told me that I had better not do that again, well I would have hit him again. But I would do it mid sentance. Odds are that he would not be able to block and talk at the same time. Talk is cheap. But I would most likely not be in that situation to begin with. I dont start trouble. But if you find your self in that situation. I would stay out of punching range to begin with. If you can touch him, then he can touch you. Action verses reaction. Actions going to have the better odds.
   Your friend in the arts,  Redfive


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## tonbo (Sep 17, 2002)

> woulnt it be self defense to hit back? the lawsuit isnt right



You are only partially right, here.

Yes, it could be considered self-defense.  However, remember that we are a litigious (lawsuit-happy) society lately, and people are suing each other for just about *anything*.

If you got in a situation where you actually fought back and hurt the guy, and he sued you, you could be in for a rough ride.  It would probably get out that you had martial arts training, and the opposition would play that for all it was worth.  Even though the other guy started the fight and put you in a bad situation, you could still wind up paying medical bills and compensatory damages.  

No, the lawsuit isn't right.  But it happens, has happened, and will continue to happen.  You have to be careful.  

Oh, and it doesn't matter if you are in high school or grade school, either......the "kid" may not sue you directly, but his *parents* may sue on his behalf......

Another reason to walk away from whatever conflicts you can.  It isn't considered cowardice, it is considered *wisdom*.

Peace--


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## GouRonin (Sep 17, 2002)

I find that when a guy wants to fight me I quickly take off my pants. In fact, if I can I will take off all my clothes. Guys usually don't want to be seen rolling around on the ground with another naked guy. If you're good and it's a multiple attack scenario you can make it look like they're fighting over you.

Just a few tips from me to all of you about self-defense.


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## 7starmantis (Sep 17, 2002)

Fighting for peace is like having sex for virginity. Hitting the guy back is not a "peaceful" move.

jmo
7sm


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## Kirk (Sep 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> 
> *I find that when a guy wants to fight me I quickly take off my pants. In fact, if I can I will take off all my clothes. Guys usually don't want to be seen rolling around on the ground with another naked guy. If you're good and it's a multiple attack scenario you can make it look like they're fighting over you.
> 
> ...



hehehe .. similar incident happened in my presence before.  A
buddy of mine and I, just out of high school, were hanging out
at the mall, pubescently looking at girls as they walked by, when
these 6 or 7 thugs came up, starting ****.   One guy (I guess the
leader) says to my friend, "how 'bout I kick jore leetle ***, wero?"
(wero is spanish for honkey).  My friend says nothing, just looks
around, and assesses the situation.  He puts a finger to his lips,
does the old "brbrbrbrbrbr" and SKIPS off!  That smart bastard
SKIPPED at the mall! :rofl:   I heard "that mother effer's crazy!"
as they all walked off.


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## Nightingale (Sep 17, 2002)

I'd say don't get into a stance if someone threatens you.  its a very obvious challenge, and most bullies, because they have fragile self esteem to begin with, will not back down in front of their peers if challenged in this way.  if you go into a stance, you're probably gonna get hit.

Just look them in the eyes, and try to make it look like you won't be so easy a mark, and most of the time, the bully will extricate himself from the situation to save face, because he doesn't want to lose.

(this is coming from a teacher here, so take it as you please)  I would advise you in a school situation to not ever throw the first punch, and if you're gonna hit back, make sure there are lots of witnesses around so you don't get sued.  If someone hits you, you're gonna get suspended anyway, because legally, schools are required to suspend everyone involved in the fight, even if they were just defending themselves.  I would also advise you, that if hit, with appropriate witnesses, to open up an appropriately responsive can of whoop-****.  by appropriately responsive, I mean that if he takes a swing at you, use non lethal, non damaging strikes. groin shots and stomach shots are good. knock him down, knock the wind out of him. don't maim or kill.  when the administration asks you about it, the correct response is "he came at me and threw a punch...I thought he was gonna kill me or something!" you need to establish immediately that you acted in self defense and were afraid for your personal welfare.  If you are taken to the office, you need to ask that your parents be called.  Mom and dad are your best allies in this situation. also, teachers are aware of who's bullying.  they're not stupid, and they can easily identify their problem students.  however, until something happens, their hands are tied in most situations, but if a known bully is picking on you, the administration will back you as much as they can.


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## 7starmantis (Sep 17, 2002)

Very good advise....well said


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## tonbo (Sep 17, 2002)

There was a little instruction book that came out after the movie "Forrest Gump"....supposedly, wisdom from the "master" himself.  In this book was the advice: (paraphrased, of course)

"If you are going to get in a fight, first, whang yourself in the head with a frying pan.  This will make the other guy think that if you are willing to do that to yourself, what would you do to *him*"

I think that kinda goes along the lines that Gou mentions, although it isn't quite as visual a picture.....*shudder*   

Oy.

Peace--


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## sammy3170 (Sep 18, 2002)

A few comments.  Firstly if  a guy is in your face you have no idea of distance and range.  If he starts to come up to you back up and in a neutral stance yell something to the effect of 'leave me alone'.  If he just keeps coming then you are physically allowed to defend your self if you consider it a threat but to stand that close you deserve to get hit.  Secondly if you get hit and he stops then you have no right to defend yourself unless you are under reattack.  You getting hit was what you were supposed to be defending yourself against. If he hits you and just stands there then the threat is gone and you are just defending your ego.

90% (probably greater of fights started in the school yard or bars are based on ego.  If a guy says he wants to sit in your stool let him.  There are limits but if you can back down why not do it.

Cheers 
Sammy


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## 7starmantis (Sep 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by sammy3170 _
> 
> *90% (probably greater of fights started in the school yard or bars are based on ego.  If a guy says he wants to sit in your stool let him.  There are limits but if you can back down why not do it.
> 
> ...



You know, that is probably some of the best advice I've heard on this topic yet. If you can back down, why not. If you truly do not want to fight, MOST of the time you can back down or walk away and not fight. I did say most of the time, not all the time, but most people are defending their ego that got hurt when the guy sat in their bar stool.


7sm


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## muayThaiPerson (Sep 18, 2002)

what would be the limit?


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## Damian Mavis (Sep 18, 2002)

Gou you bastard, that was my closest guarded martial arts secret and you went and blabbed it to the whole world.

Unfortunately I have a huge ego and in the case of the some guy trying to take my stool well... I'd just have to rip my clothes off right away.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## 7starmantis (Sep 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by muayThaiPerson _
> 
> *what would be the limit? *



I think that would depend on each person and each seperate event. Sometimes it would be further than others depending on if someone else was in danger, or if it could start a bar fight, or things of that nature. You have to think of the outcome of an encounter.

7sm


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## Humble artist (Sep 22, 2002)

Well just to make sure for everyone in doubt I think I shall reveal that if they´re just throwing insults or swinging around it can be taken as a grain of salt as long as they are so far away from you.
Once they step into your zone,a few feet away,they are completely cabable of harming you grievously.
So if they ever rush there with possible intention,you could kick them to keep them at "long range" where they can do less harm (every MA knows what I mean by long range) somewhat long winded technically maybe,just a hint.
First make sure you did all you can to avoid,stand up after that.
Do it clearly,verbally (less change of getting into legal mess with that) and try to seek personal space rather than trying to bounce them back with your ribcage...
Leave the area to a point,at least.Seek safety and see if they still keep hunting,if can´t escape,act.
Attracting attention should be rather easy in a school enviroment,something that he would really,really hate.


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## GouRonin (Sep 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Damian Mavis _
> *Gou you bastard, that was my closest guarded martial arts secret and you went and blabbed it to the whole world.
> Unfortunately I have a huge ego and in the case of the some guy trying to take my stool well... I'd just have to rip my clothes off right away.*



You sir are a madman...that's gooooood!


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## sammy3170 (Sep 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by muayThaiPerson _
> 
> *what would be the limit? *



If you back up and attempt to leave and he just keeps coming well then you just have to defend yourself.  If your hands are up in a neutral sort of a way and you're verbalising that you're leaving, sorry or whatever and he keeps coming people around you are going to say that you didn't want to fight and as long as you use fair and reasonable force you have to do what you have to do.  No amount of verbal abuse is ever enough to fight over and if s/he initially bumps you who cares.

I like the scene in Roadhouse where he's briefing the guys on how to behave.  He says regardless you must 'be nice' and one guy says 'what if he calls my momma a whore' to which the reply comes 'is she?'.  I just think people need to get over themselves because contrary to popular belief people don't like egotistical hard asses who want to fight all the time.

Just some thoughts
Cheers
Sammy


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## kenposcum (Sep 27, 2002)

"Officer, I felt I was in danger of receiving a battery."
:asian:


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## 7starmantis (Sep 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by kenposcum _
> 
> *"Officer, I felt I was in danger of receiving a battery."
> :asian: *



A battery? Like a 9 volt ?


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## muayThaiPerson (Sep 29, 2002)

when u back down, especially in front of many...ppl get an impression that ur weak and defenseless. which eventually attracts more of those punks. if in each confrontation, the limit isnt reached, then wont it build up after each one??

could that be a limit: too much all together, rather than too much at once?


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## 7starmantis (Sep 30, 2002)

No, I think that if your limit is based on what people around think or percieve, then you are not your own person anyway and are mising the point of MA alltegether.


7sm


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## kenposcum (Sep 30, 2002)

7sm, you goof!
No, a battery is a legal term for a beating, as in "Officer, I felt I was in danger of recieving a battery, which is why I punched this guy over here in the nose."


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## 7starmantis (Sep 30, 2002)

7sm


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## sammy3170 (Oct 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by muayThaiPerson _
> 
> *when u back down, especially in front of many...ppl get an impression that ur weak and defenseless. which eventually attracts more of those punks. if in each confrontation, the limit isnt reached, then wont it build up after each one??
> 
> could that be a limit: too much all together, rather than too much at once? *



I didn't say act weak and defenceless, I said back away and verbalise that you don't want to fight. You still have to have confidence in your voice.  If it boosts his ego enough to avoid a fight then you have done a good job. If he keeps coming he gets what is coming to him and you have the backing of many witnesses in court who saw that you didn't want to fight. 

And even if you do look a little weak and defenceless, who cares?

Cheers
Sammy


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## Damian Mavis (Oct 1, 2002)

Well.... I've always felt that attackers are looking for an easy mark, looking weak and defenceless can often encourage bad things to happen as far as I'm concerned.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## 7starmantis (Oct 1, 2002)

I don't think keeping yourself out of a fight has to look weak and defensless. I can back away from a guy trying to start a fight and just look like I don't care, not that I'm scared or anything. Plus, others will see your strength over his weakness.


JMO
7sm


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## Damian Mavis (Oct 1, 2002)

I agree 7starmantis, my post was in response to the post before mine that stated "And even if you do look a little weak and defenceless, who cares?"

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## D.Cobb (Oct 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Damian Mavis _
> 
> *I agree 7starmantis, my post was in response to the post before mine that stated "And even if you do look a little weak and defenceless, who cares?"
> 
> ...



I am afraid, I will have to agree with Damian here. The idea is to voice loudly and confidently, "No, just back off, I don't want to fight you!"
Be confident, don't be a victim.
--Dave:asian:


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## sammy3170 (Oct 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Damian Mavis _
> 
> *I agree 7starmantis, my post was in response to the post before mine that stated "And even if you do look a little weak and defenceless, who cares?"
> 
> ...



Again my point has been missed.   Many people see backing down a sign of weakness.  If he says give me your stool or I will punch your head in then give it to him.  I am not saying get on your knees and lick his boots.

Cheers
Sammy


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## Damian Mavis (Oct 2, 2002)

Depending on the situation I might agree.  I was just answering the question "if you look weak and defenceless who cares?"  I think looking strong while talking someone down can actually help defuse the situation.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## Zoran (Oct 2, 2002)

I really wonder how many Martial Artists who advocate on walking away after eating a knuckle sandwich would really do that. I bet most would tear that person apart.:shrug: 

NO ONE, has the right to lay their hands on you. If it was me, I would show them the errors of their way.

I guess I'm not very politically correct.


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## redfive (Oct 2, 2002)

I dont think many people period, would just walk away after someone  had just hit them. If a person hit you once then they are most likely able and willing to hit you again. As for it being a matter of ego, well it is. Ego meens I in latin. And it is all about me if someone hit me. As for the proper conduct for a martial artist, which is warrior art or art of the warrior, I think that one would kick your but if you hit him or her. Bruce Lee got challenged many times and was more then willing to take them on. If you walked up on him and hit him in the face, which you most likely would not make it that far, but I'm pritty sure Bruce would beat your *** down. Would that make him a bad martial artist. No. Thats what a Martial Artist does he or she trains to fight. Not to train for 17 years and walk away after someone punches you in the face.
Some will say that there is no honor in fighting. That may be true, but there is always a winner and a looser. I would prefer to be the winner. People need to look into the true bloody histories  of all these honorable Martial Arts systems we study. Its  all honorable unless your on the recieving end.

   Your friend in the bloody, warrior arts, Redfive


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## ace (Oct 2, 2002)

After the first punch He should have fought back.
All things a side from M.A.

If U dont devend your self 
They will come 
U fight back u may earn Your respect.
Now this is not good inside school
cause U can get  suspendid  or kicked out (been there done that)
But 1 can not always choose when & were he can defend them
Selves.
Fight Back Defenitly
 :soapbox: 
Primo


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## Angus (Oct 3, 2002)

I don't train to hit back once I've been hit, I train to have the awareness to prevent that first hit from landing. Striving to be aware enough so that there isn't going to be anything "out of the blue". 

Should there be one...well, his *** is mine.


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## KennethKu (Oct 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Angus _
> *I don't train to hit back once I've been hit, I train to have the awareness to prevent that first hit from landing. Striving to be aware enough so that there isn't going to be anything "out of the blue".
> 
> Should there be one...well, his *** is mine.  *



That is a very good point. I learnt it the hard way. I took the first hit and went down     . No more of that kind of courtesy! (hopefully)


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## Damian Mavis (Oct 3, 2002)

Angus, I'm glad you added that last comment.  Too often martial artists act like they will see it ALL and never be caught off guard and it's nice to see you leave space for the possibility of it happening.  Hell I'm aware too but there's imes I let my guard down to relax and have fun, if I didn't life would be pretty miserable.  Mind you I don't drink or do drugs so I'm always at least normally aware.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## ace (Oct 3, 2002)

Having be in alot of fights my self!!
I state this U can not always a void being hit.

I train for M.M.A.
Ok yes it is different than a street fight.
But if U think U can Avoid being hit every time.
U are fulling your self.

Oooooo yeah im 1-0
And geting ready for more!!
:snipe2: :snipe2: :snipe2: 
Primo


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## Angus (Oct 3, 2002)

Of course nobody can prevent every hit, and nobody said they could. But the idea is to train TOWARD that point, whether you get there or not.


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## DireWolf (Oct 3, 2002)

> "Officer, I felt I was in danger of recieving a battery, which is why I punched this guy over here in the nose."



And once you explain to the officer where you thought the assailant was going to stick the battery I'm sure he'll understand  

That said I think that once someone has actually hit you it's on.  Especially if there is a crowd around who saw you get hit first.  I realise that there is a world of other benefits to be gained from martial arts but we often tend to lose focus on the fact that the arts in question are *martial* in nature.

After all you could get flexiblity from yoga, life path from religion, fitness from the gym, etc.  Why spend so much time learning martial techniques, theory etc if you never plan to use them when the situation requires it?  I'm not talking about seeking out conflict but once somebody has struck you (or even shaped up to) then the avenue of peace has pretty much been exhausted.  Then we become martial artists as well as philosophers.

I got punched in the back of the head once...total sucker punch.  I could have walked away, which probably would have resulted in a second punch to the same area.  Instead I turned around and fought.  Does this make me a "thug" as opposed to a Martial Artist?  I think not.

:yinyang:
DW


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## Rich Parsons (Oct 3, 2002)

Personally I think if you get it, you will react.
How you react will depend upon your training and yourself.

i.e. Will I was bouncing one evening I was trying to convince this very tall young man (18) that it was best for him and his friends to leave before he did something he would regret. Being that this was not my first time, I did keep track of his shorter friend (17) who was also trying to get into my face and was working himself up. When I saw him make a fist and start to cock back from his hip with it, I just reached out and slapped him across the face. His tall friend was surprised and just stood there, the shorter guy, reacted by saying, "You hit me?!?" He was going to react, but knew I was ready and he could not get his sucker punch in. So he tried to get the crowd against me by bringing up he was under 18 and a minor. then this guy from the crowd who I did not know, stepped up and said, "No, I saw a Man! B&*^% Slap a little boy who should have been spanked. And that is what I will tell the cops." They all left.

Point I am trying to make, I used the strike out of the blue to get his attention and to stop his intention of hitting me. So, people will react, but not all the same.

Just my Point of View and Opinion.

Rich


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## kenposcum (Oct 4, 2002)

I think it was Ghandi who said, "To fight is wrong, but to fight poorly for a just cause is worse."  Point being, yeah, if someone hits/attempts to hit you, it is on.  Better you hurt him than he never learns a lesson about hitting people.

:asian:


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## cdhall (Oct 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by tonbo _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



I'm going away this weekend, but I wanted to post in reply to this even before I finish reading the thread.

Anyone can and people often do, sue for anything in civil court.  Too often you have to go hire an attorney to defend yourself against someone who may be suing you frivolously in order to waste your time and money.  Lots of times, they will offer to drop their suit if you "settle" with them and this is often cheaper than fighting them in court to prove that you are right.

Whether this is fair or not, it happens and often your response will be dictated by how much money you want to spend on the issue.

The plan I offer via my link as sponsor of the School Management forum provides your legal defense at no charge other than your monthy membership fee of $16+/mo. depending on what you sign up for.  This is just one benefit of course, contact me if you have questions.

A Pre-Paid Legal Service Plan is an excellent way to avoid such frivolous lawsuits and the concept is endorsed by the American Bar Association.  I like to think of it as legal self defense.

How much money "should" you have to spend to defend yourself in a situation like this?  

None is a good answer.  

I have lots of annecdotes and client references but I will not post them here; contact me individually with any questions.  Some of my clients have been involved in shootings before and if you think hitting someone can cause you a problem, wait until you shoot and kill someone in self-defense.  

Mr. Parker used to say "...better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6...."

Better still in my opinion if it doesn't cost you anything.
:asian:


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## ace (Oct 4, 2002)

But if he hits U hurts U & likes it What has he learned!

NOw this started with A school story.
This can Make a Tuff Year.

It is like a Virus once it startes if U dont Stop it>
It will Spread.

U Will Be A Mark.
 & like a Parana They
 will all take ther bite . 

And no the Laws don't Work for the Martial Artist.

:revenge: :toilclaw: 
Not Good Stuff


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## 7starmantis (Oct 4, 2002)

I have been readin this thread and I think most of you have lost sight of what martial arts is about. If you have trained for 20 years in MA and some kid hits you in the face, its morally and legally right for you to hurt him seriously? I think thats just a little backwards.


> After all you could get flexiblity from yoga, life path from religion, fitness from the gym, etc. Why spend so much time learning martial techniques, theory etc if you never plan to use them when the situation requires it? I'm not talking about seeking out conflict but once somebody has struck you (or even shaped up to) then the avenue of peace has pretty much been exhausted. Then we become martial artists as well as philosophers.


What would happen if everytime a police officer got spit on or hit, he just trashed the suspect? What if the guy hits the cop so the cop shoots him? Isn't that the same reasoning you guys are using? It seems a little ridiculous when applied to that situation doesn't it? I've been hit before by some drunk kid who wanted to show off in front of his college buddies, instead of making him wake up the next morning in the hospital, I walked away and told his friends to take him home, nothing else happened, he got in my face several times, but nothing else happened. The funniest thing is his girlfriend came back in  the club and found me just to thank me for not hurting him. But by the reasoning I've been reading, I should have broken a leg or something? What would that have proved? If you fight back you are no better than they are, you are at the same level as them, who is going to respect that ? I'm not! I'm talking about situation that can be resolved, not being mugged in the back alley, then you break every thing you get your hands on, but in situations where you get hit, you make yourslef the bigger person if you still walk away. You don't have to crawl, or even run, don't even turn around, just back up and remove yourslef from the situation, or would that go against the very reason some are studying to fight? If thats the case, you;ve got the wrong intentions and do not deserve the respect anyway.


JMO
7sm


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## ace (Oct 4, 2002)

If U don't STAND for something U'll
Fall foreverything.

This started with a scool fight
That a Martial Artist saw correct.

How does spiting on a Cop fit into 
This Post??????????????????????/

Maybe im Wrong 
:erg: 
Primo


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## muayThaiPerson (Oct 4, 2002)

about a month ago, my friend got into a short argumement with a girl. the girl was the one who started it and my friend just said a word or two and walked on. today (a month later) her brother steps up to him with about 3 people with him. it was me and 2 of my friends on the other side. the guy was yelling "cmon, cmon" but they didnt do anything because he talked his way out of it. he was 1/1000000 in away from getting hit. if he were to get jumped, would it be right to fight to help?


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## redfive (Oct 4, 2002)

Well all the officers I know in North Texas, would beet your *** if you spit on them, or they would soke you down with pepper spray. If you hit one, again they would hit you back. Hitting an officer gives him the right to pull his ASP botton and hit you with it.
From reading alot of your posts and hearing how many times you have been hit and attacked and realy done nothing. You sound more like a punching bag. Plus you have a CHL but if you dont pull the gun while being car jacked and all, well your to damn passive for me. But thats not a bad thing and don't take this as a bash or anything. I'm curious to hear your take on the Martial Arts and why you realy study it. It seems to me that the Mantis style must be very passive or have a heavy philisophical tone to it.
I study Combat systems and methods. I train to heart people who wont to heart me.I study to hit, break, stab, slash , cut and maim. I did not get into the martial arts to learn danceing, or coreographed routines. Or how to use a weapon that has not been in use for the last 200 years. I got into it, to learn to fight. But a  have noticed that there is sort of a devide on what the Martial arts realy are about now, and what they used to be about. Which was Military training for military forces, to go invade or defend. So I guess I'm not a Martial Artist per say.I dont no. But I would like to here your take on it. By the way I'm not a war monger or anything like that. I like to fight though. Its a part of me. If some on hits me or tries to hit me, will I call it hands on training. I will fight back, with reasonable equal force. Maybe just a little more. 
            Please don't hate me,       Redfive


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## Zoran (Oct 4, 2002)

It would seem that we are split into two groups;

Martial *Artists*
and 
*Martial* Artists

Oh and the;
_"Waive my hands and feet around in the air but never hit anyone"_ Artist  

Sorry, couldn't help the last one.


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## ace (Oct 5, 2002)

I f U Want Art By a Brush.

Combat is not pretty.
:redeme:


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## JDenz (Oct 5, 2002)

The first thing I want to say Bullies are not weak.  This isn't Power Rangers this is the real world.  I don't know what fancy suburbern schools you guys went to but in the real world the bullies are bullies cause they are tough.  They are usually jocks or the guys that go out and fight everynight.  Now it is true that most arn't techniqual but that doesn't matter in a street fight.  If someone punches you in the mouth you better fight back if he floors you whats to stop him from stomping you. 
    You can never be totally aware of your surrondings it is imposable, and after a guy just smacked you in the face twice you obviously are having a diffucult time striking back.   As far as the guy that was talking about the cops, I don't know where you live but I live in buffalo if you give a cop a hard time here they will hurt you bad.  combating aggresion with passiveness is what lead to World War two


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## ace (Oct 5, 2002)

:cheers: 
It's True It's True.


The truth has been spoken!

All i can Say is , Now that is a Reality
 :roflmao: :roflmao: :snipe2: :snipe2: 

Good Stuff


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## 7starmantis (Oct 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by redfive _
> 
> *Well all the officers I know in North Texas, would beet your *** if you spit on them, or they would soke you down with pepper spray. If you hit one, again they would hit you back. Hitting an officer gives him the right to pull his ASP botton and hit you with it.
> From reading alot of your posts and hearing how many times you have been hit and attacked and realy done nothing. You sound more like a punching bag. Plus you have a CHL but if you dont pull the gun while being car jacked and all, well your to damn passive for me. But thats not a bad thing and don't take this as a bash or anything. I'm curious to hear your take on the Martial Arts and why you realy study it. It seems to me that the Mantis style must be very passive or have a heavy philisophical tone to it.
> ...



I really appreciate your recognition of my views, I am probably more philosophical than most MAist in the world today. Its hard to explain the philosophy in regards to violence, let me try...the mantis practitioner is never an attacker, nor does he or she dispatch the most devastating defenses in any situation. Rather, the study of kung fu leads to better understanding of violence, and consequently how to avoid conflict. Failing that, a Buddhist who refuses to accept an offering of violence (i.e., and attack) merely returns it to the sender. Initially, the kung fu expert may choose to parry an attack, but if an assailant is both skilled and determined to cause harm, a more definitive and concluding solution may be required, from a joint-lock hold to a knockout, to death. The more sophisticated and violent an assault, the more devastating the return of the attack to the attacker. Buddhists are not, therefore, hurting anyone; they merely refuse delivery of intended harm.
I have been in many fights where I had to use said force, but I've been in many that only needed a parry and a leg sweep to walk away from. Its hard to balance, I'm not saying anyone is wrong for not believing the way I do, its just my personal beliefs.
And I'm not upset at all at you, I think it takes a good intelect to see what you have seen in someone.

7sm


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## 7starmantis (Oct 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by JDenz _
> 
> *The first thing I want to say Bullies are not weak.  This isn't Power Rangers this is the real world.  I don't know what fancy suburbern schools you guys went to but in the real world the bullies are bullies cause they are tough.  They are usually jocks or the guys that go out and fight everynight.  Now it is true that most arn't techniqual but that doesn't matter in a street fight.  If someone punches you in the mouth you better fight back if he floors you whats to stop him from stomping you.
> You can never be totally aware of your surrondings it is imposable, and after a guy just smacked you in the face twice you obviously are having a diffucult time striking back.   As far as the guy that was talking about the cops, I don't know where you live but I live in buffalo if you give a cop a hard time here they will hurt you bad.  combating aggresion with passiveness is what lead to World War two *



So the fact that some cops will hit you back makes that right ? My brother-in-law is an atourney that is allways sueing cops and cities for abuse in situations like that, he makes a wonderful living doing it too, the cops usually lose their jobs. Just a thought though, I didn't say the cop wouldn't do anything, but breaking the perps leg, or hiting punching them is against the law and plainly wrong, just my opinions though, not saying everyone has to agree with me.

Oh, I live in Dallas, grew up in Houston though.

7sm


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## ace (Oct 7, 2002)

Jdenz never said it was rite
But it has never stoped them before

Not All N.Y. Cops are this way.
But there are alot.

And if U live in the Urban Sections
U would know how true it is!!!!!!!




 :armed:


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## ace (Oct 7, 2002)

Wife is from Huston she say's
It is differnt.

She thinks it's cool U are from Huston
I told her she is being Nosie.


N.Y. is a differnt place to live.
Like i said not al N.Y. Cops are this Way.

I hope your Brotherinlaw wins all his casees.

Cops that do abuse there power are Bullies to.

Now this started with a
 school story & has gone way 
off track we could have had 4 or 5 new threads.



:armed: 
Good Stuff


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## 7starmantis (Oct 7, 2002)

Oh I agree completely! I've lived in the areas that this happens growing up, had friends that were hit/beat whatever by cops, but I was just making the point that as a MAist you should be striving to do what is right, not what is acceptable.


7sm


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## ace (Oct 7, 2002)

Agreed Martial Artist should
Set the Better Ex.
:cheers: 
Good stuff


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## JDenz (Oct 7, 2002)

7starmantis 

   I respect you for your philosophy and your opions but I was speaking about the thread and not my opions on violence.  My personal opion on violence is you do what it takes to keep yourself safe.


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## Bod (Oct 7, 2002)

Are Bullies weak?

OK, imagine a bully you know.

Does he dish out more than he can take? I bet he does.

If someone attacked his friend (yes his only one) and he knew that he would get a beating if he defended his friend would he jump in and help his friend anyway? No, didn't think he would.

Maybe it's my idea of what weakness is, but I think bullies are weak.


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## JDenz (Oct 7, 2002)

most of the bullies I know were either on a sports team or in a gang and everyone of them would stick up for the other one.  So I would have to say yes I would consider bullies strong.


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## ace (Oct 7, 2002)

Hey Bod were do u come from
Most bullies come in Wolf Pac's.


:iws:


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## ace (Oct 7, 2002)

Im stating a new thred 
We are way off the Oiganal post


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## Bod (Oct 8, 2002)

They come in packs because they are gutless.

Packs of guys who fight other packs of guys are not bullies.


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## ace (Oct 8, 2002)

Check it out !


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## ace (Oct 8, 2002)

Gutless Maybe but U were the 1 that said
They had 1 friend.

Which Just is not the case in N.Y.


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## arnisador (Aug 28, 2003)

Thread moved.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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## SpiritFists936 (Oct 29, 2003)

this is just an idea, but i think its effective, hit first, and dont stop hitting till someone pulls you off of them, or they are no longer a threat.

    Just a thought.


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