# Graureiher HEMA group at a Dog Brothers Gathering.



## Tony Dismukes (Aug 19, 2015)

Looks very cool, but not particularly safe.

I can't find any info on the Graureiher group. Any of the HEMA folks here know anything about them?


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## Flatfish (Aug 19, 2015)

Gives new meaning to: " i'm gonna go medieval on your ****  "


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## Flatfish (Aug 19, 2015)

here they are: http://www.graureiherrotte.ch

EDIT: @Tony Dismukes: let me know if you want something translated, I am german


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## Tony Dismukes (Aug 19, 2015)

Flatfish said:


> here they are: http://www.graureiherrotte.ch
> 
> EDIT: @Tony Dismukes: let me know if you want something translated, I am german


If you have a chance, could you post a summary of whatever info they have on their site regarding their background and training methods?


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## Flatfish (Aug 19, 2015)

OK, this is about as much useful information as I could extract:


Training:

No sharpened edges, edges must be at least 1/8 inch wide.
Points have to be protected with a ball or leather padding
Safety gear needs to be at least a helmet, gloves and padded clothing. Other items are up to the individual.

Weapons:
They are using a variety of swords.
Most commonly, a longsword “Spatha” with a 65-80 cm blade.
Another one is the”Sax” I guess mostly known here as Seax. It’s a long knife with only one edge.
Axes used include throwing axes “Franziska”, and one handed axes (although the video also showed a guy with a twohanded one IIRC)
Spears and lances
Shields: wood with the edge covered either with rawhide or iron, usually covered with either linen or rawhide. An iron bump sits in the middle.

Armor:
Padded clothing, chainmail and segmented iron armor, helmets of course.

Background:
They started out in 2007 focusing exclusively on medieval warfare but then got into reenactments and are now recognized as of 2013 as an organization to portray early medieval history setting up authentic camps, giving performances etc. They actually manufacture a lot of their equipment themselves and test it out during their camps. Looks like they are fairly small with only 10 members listed on their website.

Their FB page has quite a few pics: https://www.facebook.com/GraureiherRotte/photos_albums


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## Langenschwert (Aug 22, 2015)

I'd have a hard time calling this HEMA in the strict sense. There are no manuals detailing early medieval combat. The earliest is from 1300-ish for sword & buckler. Perhaps they are using late medieval manuals and adapting it to earlier weapons, hard to say. I'd doubt it. The spear on spear looked legit, but most of it seemed like straight-up reenactment. Reenactment =/= HEMA, anymore than WWE = jujutsu.

It certainly ain't safe the way they're doing it. But no full-contact combat sport is particularly safe.


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## geezer (Sep 14, 2015)

Langenschwert said:


> I'd have a hard time calling this HEMA in the strict sense. There are no manuals detailing early medieval combat. The earliest is from 1300-ish for sword & buckler. Perhaps they are using late medieval manuals and adapting it to earlier weapons...



Ahem! Or better put AHEMA! (Archaeolicical and Historical European Martial Arts)!!!

Yes this _did _look like reenactment, so no comment there. But it is worth noting that a great deal more can be learned about ancient cultures than just by studying written documents. It's called archaeology (ta da!).

Often good archaeological studies can reveal more about ancient lifeways than scarce historical documents alone, or in the case of "experimental archaeology", in the complete absence of historical records. I did a bit of that with flint knapping decades ago in school.

Anyway, _this_ seems to be what the best aficionados of early Western fighting methods are resorting to in order to recreate with a reasonable degree accuracy (or at least, plausibility) fighting systems from the Early Middle Ages and before. Hence the term "AHEMA" (I don't know if such a term actually exists _but it should!)._

Here's an example I found on Youtube:







_
_


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## Tez3 (Sep 15, 2015)

If you want academic studies try the Royal Armouries, they have extremely well qualified researchers, curators and experts. They will answers questions from the public as well. What we do | Royal Armouries


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## lklawson (Sep 15, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> If you want academic studies try the Royal Armouries, they have extremely well qualified researchers, curators and experts. They will answers questions from the public as well. What we do | Royal Armouries


You mean these guys? 
Historical Martial Arts | Royal Armouries

You know that they're part of the "mainstream" HEMA movement and are plugged in with pretty much every one else, right?  For the most part they teach the same things in similar ways with similar movements and interpretations.  Of course, there are always going to be differences in certain interpretations or other differences which those looking in from the outside would consider more-or-less "trivial."  Sort of like "trivial" differences between one branch of Kenjutsu and another.  It may not be "trivial" to them, but to the rest of us, who cares if you clinch your pinky finger or leave it hanging loose?

As far as most of the HEMA world is concerned, "they is us."

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Sep 15, 2015)

Oh, and, for what it's worth, I have a mutual acquaintance with John Waller in the personage of Brad Waller (I don't think they're related).  I've trained in a few of Brad's classes at the former ISMAC seminars.  I particularly enjoyed his Marozzo Pressas class where I was just planning on sitting at the edge of the room and taking notes (because I was wiped out by that time) yet he coaxed me into participating anyhow by shear niceness.  Brad is a skilled instructor and you would never hope to meet a nicer person.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Tez3 (Sep 15, 2015)

lklawson said:


> You mean these guys?
> Historical Martial Arts | Royal Armouries
> 
> You know that they're part of the "mainstream" HEMA movement and are plugged in with pretty much every one else, right?  For the most part they teach the same things in similar ways with similar movements and interpretations.  Of course, there are always going to be differences in certain interpretations or other differences which those looking in from the outside would consider more-or-less "trivial."  Sort of like "trivial" differences between one branch of Kenjutsu and another.  It may not be "trivial" to them, but to the rest of us, who cares if you clinch your pinky finger or leave it hanging loose?
> ...



No I don't mean them at all, they are just a group who train on the premises, I mean the actual curators and researchers employed by the Royal Armouries. these people Research Staff | Royal Armouries and these Curators Emeritus | Royal Armouries


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## lklawson (Sep 15, 2015)

I very carefully read the Biography of Mr. Lankester.  I see absolutely nothing listed in his training or experience which would give him any particular insight or knowledge on how to actually apply those edged weapons in a fight.

I'd feel comfortable asking him questions about when a given pattern sword first appeared and who the important historic figures were who used examples thereof, but unless there's something missing from his bio, if I wanted training on how to actually *use* a weapon in a fight, I'd go to a SCA training session before I went to him.

Knowing the history of a lot of weapons doesn't mean you know how to use them (never mind teach 'em) and being really smart doesn't mean you know how to fight.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Tez3 (Sep 15, 2015)

I'm not sure why you would pick out one member of staff, he's head of department not the department and only at Leeds, there's also London. If you have an enquiry it goes to the appropriate person not necessarily to the head of department.


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## drop bear (Sep 16, 2015)

Langenschwert said:


> I'd have a hard time calling this HEMA in the strict sense. There are no manuals detailing early medieval combat. The earliest is from 1300-ish for sword & buckler. Perhaps they are using late medieval manuals and adapting it to earlier weapons, hard to say. I'd doubt it. The spear on spear looked legit, but most of it seemed like straight-up reenactment. Reenactment =/= HEMA, anymore than WWE = jujutsu.
> 
> It certainly ain't safe the way they're doing it. But no full-contact combat sport is particularly safe.



What is the injury level like?


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## drop bear (Sep 16, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> I'm not sure why you would pick out one member of staff, he's head of department not the department and only at Leeds, there's also London. If you have an enquiry it goes to the appropriate person not necessarily to the head of department.



So is there a member of staff there who will put on the armour and bang?


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## Tez3 (Sep 16, 2015)

drop bear said:


> So is there a member of staff there who will put on the armour and bang?



Absolutely. That's one of the best bits about going, you don't just get to listen to the lecture there are demos, fights and more. A lot of the stuff you don't just get to touch you get to play with lol. The Royal Armouries is ancient and was what it says it was, the place where armour and weapons were made and stored, there are still workshops  where craftsmen make weapons. It dates from the 15th century and part was already being used as a museum from the 16th century. The original Royal Armouries are still in the Tower of London, Leeds and Portsmouth ( where the artillery is)  are more modern additions. It is publically owned, a national treasure in fact.


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## lklawson (Sep 16, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> I'm not sure why you would pick out one member of staff,


Well, because he's on the link you posted and, of those four, he's the only one with anything even related to medieval fighting skills interest in that he's curating medieval weapons and armour.  And it doesn't look like he knows jack about fighting, never mind how medieval fighting actually worked at the nuts-n-bolts level. 



> he's head of department not the department and only at Leeds, there's also London. If you have an enquiry it goes to the appropriate person not necessarily to the head of department.


And I promise you that if the question was about actual fighting skills and it ended up with someone who actually had any fighting skills associated with medieval weapons or techniques, then that person would be "plugged into" the general HEMA community.

Where do you think this stuff comes from?  Heck, most of the historic manuscripts were only available to University staff and Researchers for ages.  You don't just open the Pisani-_Dossi_ to some larper.  600 year old one-of-a-kind documents are in the hands of museums and private collections.

This research STARTED in Universities and spread from there.  In a very real way, nearly every HEMA organization can trace its roots back to a Professor or Researcher who started questioning assumptions about what Medieval fighting actually was and then dug out the manuscripts.  You've written a couple of times now that, "I go down to the Royal Armouries, real experts when I want to know anything about European fighting systems."  I've tried to point out to you that, for the most part, the HEMA world is very interconnected when it comes to research and interpretations of actual fighting technique.  For the most part, you don't have to "go down to the Royal Armouries" because they're not the only "real experts" as you've implied.  In fact, it appears that the Royal Armouries has lots and lots of Curators who *aren't* "real experts" on fighting.

Bob Charron, one of the leading researchers in Fiore style medieval Longsword in the HEMA community, has presented something like three Papers here: International Congress on Medieval Studies | Western Michigan University

To be more blunt than I'd really like (because I like you), you seem to have some misconceptions and prejudices concerning the entire HEMA movement.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Tez3 (Sep 16, 2015)

Well, yes you were rude and I think you have mistaken what I have said, blown it up and made a mountain out of a molehill. All I said was IF I were interested I'd pop along to Leeds ..... because it's just down the road and as I go there anyway it would be no trouble to ask (is that plain enough for you), and I added that I'm not particularly interested so I don't have any preconceptions about HEMA, I have no ideas about them whatsoever, I don't have any prejudices either, how could I when I'm not particularly interested. I made a comment you don't like it fine, you can disagree, ignore or just scroll past. You decided I meant 'real experts' not me, hence your taking offence, you said I implied it, I never, as you should know, imply anything ( as many have complained before, I speak plainly), I say it or I don't so please don't put words in my mouth.


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## lklawson (Sep 16, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Well, yes you were rude


Sorry.  Not trying to be.  Sometimes to be clear and sidestep misunderstandings in written conversation, blunt writing is necessary.  However, it's, well, blunt.  



> and I think you have mistaken what I have said


Good.  That'd be nice.  Unusual in this day and age, but nice anyway.



> All I said was IF I were interested I'd pop along to Leeds ..... because it's just down the road and as I go there anyway it would be no trouble to ask (is that plain enough for you), and I added that I'm not particularly interested so I don't have any preconceptions about HEMA, I have no ideas about them whatsoever, I don't have any prejudices either, how could I when I'm not particularly interested. I made a comment you don't like it fine, you can disagree, ignore or just scroll past. You decided I meant 'real experts' not me, hence your taking offence, you said I implied it, I never, as you should know, imply anything ( as many have complained before, I speak plainly),


Are you sure about that?  Perhaps you should re-read your posts on the subject.  Several of your statements on the subject come across as dismissive of any expertise on Medieval fighting methods which aren't Royal Armouries, even specifically dismissing a group which teaches there saying, "they are just a group who train on the premises, I mean the actual curators and researchers employed by the Royal Armouries" and "I go down to the Royal Armouries, real experts when I want to know anything about European fighting systems."  Well, "actual curators," which I read the bios for, don't apparently actually know how to fight, never mind fighting as it was done with Medieval weapons.



> I say it or I don't so please don't put words in my mouth.


I'm not putting words in your mouth, I'm quoting the words that came out of it.  If you mean something else, then perhaps you should have said something else.  It's not that I decided you mean "real experts" (as you write, above), it's that you specifically wrote "real experts."  I didn't "decide" anything, I'm just going by what you wrote.

Again, you've made several statements now rejecting the subject matter expertise of any except Royal Armouries personnel, and it sure looks like you're attempting to hedge your bets now by claiming, "well, I really don't care anyway," and "hey, I'm just speaking plainly." 

I'm sorry that you're offended by my "rudeness" of being blunt now, but, honestly, I don't have much else left.  I tried being gentle and circumspect but that didn't get anywhere.  So "blunt" it is.


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## Tez3 (Sep 16, 2015)

For goodness sake, why are you so touchy? If I said real experts it was stop people like you saying they weren't.
I haven't 'started saying I'm not that interested' I said it at the start.
You are reading into my words things that aren't there. *You *see it as dismissive, *you* see what I said as dismissive, it's how *you* read things. yes. do we really want a discussion on what the 'just' means because you are reading a lot into it that I didn't put there. I take Brownies and we meet in a church hall but we are_ just_ a group which meets there we aren't part of the church, there does that satisfy you? why read into it more than it means, they are just a group who meets at the Armouries not part of it. if you think that is a put down then I'm sorry but it is what it is.
I don't know why you think I'm saying only the personnel at the Armouries are the only ones who have knowledge, again this is what you are reading into it. I was asked a question about whether they did 'demos' ie staff bashing each other, I said yes and expanded on it, excuse me if you think I have trodden on your toes. I have been very careful not to say anything  about HEMA if you notice and to only mention something I knew something about ie Royal Armouries, if you have taken this the wrong way then again I'm sorry, I'm guilty on passing on too much information about one place because I thought it was interesting wheras it was obviously offensive, full of contempt and generally nasty.

Oh and I'm not offended by your posts, disappointed I think is the word I'd use. You seem to keep reading so much more into a few words that I could possible have meant.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 16, 2015)

*I have all the respect in the world for practitioner's of Western martial studies so the following questions are posed to help people get to the right sources:* 

The bigger question and I am not saying this to begin an argument or be rude is are there *"real"* experts on medieval fighting?  Meaning, if most of the information we have has been translated from manuscripts do they really understand what people did back then?  If there are "experts" who are they?  How did they become and expert in their system? 

The other major question is what lineages do we have that have been passed down for generations and did not need to be reinvented or revived from a manuscript?

If you are training in the US or Europe where and who would be a good person to study with?  Why?

*I pose the above for our general audience here so that informed members can give them ideas to pursue in this area of study!*


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 16, 2015)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> *I have all the respect in the world for practitioner's of Western martial studies so the following questions are posed to help people get to the right sources:*
> 
> The bigger question and I am not saying this to begin an argument or be rude is are there *"real"* experts on medieval fighting?  Meaning, if most of the information we have has been translated from manuscripts do they really understand what people did back then?  If there are "experts" who are they?  How did they become and expert in their system?
> 
> ...



I have little or no knowledge on this topic other than I see Mike Loades on many a history based TV show that talks about the subject.


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## lklawson (Sep 16, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> For goodness sake, why are you so touchy? If I said real experts it was stop people like you saying they weren't.
> I haven't 'started saying I'm not that interested' I said it at the start.
> You are reading into my words things that aren't there. *You *see it as dismissive, *you* see what I said as dismissive, it's how *you* read things. yes. do we really want a discussion on what the 'just' means because you are reading a lot into it that I didn't put there. I take Brownies and we meet in a church hall but we are_ just_ a group which meets there we aren't part of the church, there does that satisfy you? why read into it more than it means, they are just a group who meets at the Armouries not part of it. if you think that is a put down then I'm sorry but it is what it is.
> I don't know why you think I'm saying only the personnel at the Armouries are the only ones who have knowledge, again this is what you are reading into it. I was asked a question about whether they did 'demos' ie staff bashing each other, I said yes and expanded on it, excuse me if you think I have trodden on your toes. I have been very careful not to say anything  about HEMA if you notice and to only mention something I knew something about ie Royal Armouries, if you have taken this the wrong way then again I'm sorry, I'm guilty on passing on too much information about one place because I thought it was interesting wheras it was obviously offensive, full of contempt and generally nasty.
> ...



[walking away]


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## lklawson (Sep 16, 2015)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> *I have all the respect in the world for practitioner's of Western martial studies so the following questions are posed to help people get to the right sources:*
> 
> The bigger question and I am not saying this to begin an argument or be rude is are there *"real"* experts on medieval fighting?


Depends on what you mean by "real" (beyond your following exposition).  If you mean people using the same weapons with repeatable, verifiable, results in fighting which look like the available historic images and match the available historic texts, then, "yes."



> Meaning, if most of the information we have has been translated from manuscripts do they really understand what people did back then?


That's the $64,000 question, isn't it?  It's sort of the same question that Flint Knappers get asked.  "Are you sure that's how the cavemen did it?"  The answer is, naturally, "We can't be 100% sure but I take the same inputs and get the same outputs so if it ain't exactly the same, it's pretty darn close."  This is additionally bolstered by the fact that the human body hasn't changed at all since then.  It still breaks in the same way and moves in the same ways.  There's only going to be so many ways to make a given tool "work" against a human.




> If there are "experts" who are they?  How did they become and expert in their system?


<shrug>  Look around.  Find people who's stuff works against other people in resisting confrontations.  Ask them how they got where they are.



> The other major question is what lineages do we have that have been passed down for generations and did not need to be reinvented or revived from a manuscript?


As we've seen many times, having an unbroken "living lineage" doesn't necessarily prevent changes in the system.  Crap, Ueshiba died in 1969 and how many different styles of Aikido are there?  You'd think that Nikyo would be the same in all of the, but it isn't.  They're usually pretty similar but not always identical.  I used to believe that having an unbroken lineage would ensure the veracity and purity of an art.  Now I'm not so sure.

But, anyway, on to the question.  The answer is, "yes, there are unbroken instructor lineages."  However, the answer is also, "no, the transmission of certain weapons is 'broken'."   Most research into the subject seems to indicate that the people who were instructing "back then" taught others who then went on to instruct and pass their lineage on to the next generation instructor.  However, what weapon(s) they were teaching fluctuated and evolved with whatever the common and/or in-demand weapons of the time were.  This is most obvious in the German tradition where we see an evolution of Medeival "knightly" weapons taught and then, as they fell out of vogue, were slowly relegated to more and more sporting or "historic" interest weapons, which gave way to more "modern" weapons.  For example, Joachim Meyer's fighting manual shows what was in his time "antique" Longsword (apparently for basic instruction and sport), "modern" Dussak (saber-like weapon), and emerging Rapier.  Crucially, he says that all of the weapons are unified under the same method and system of body movement.  In other words, the "rules" for how to use all of these very different weapons are the same at their basic level, merely modified in order to be most appropriate for that given weapon.

These same Fencing schools continued on right up to today, where I could easily go study Smallsword or Foil with a direct lineage descendant from antiquity.  But Smallsword isn't Longsword.  Not by a long shot.  However, because we know that these schools evolved from there, because we have a living instructor for the modern "rules" of movement and use, because we have texts describing the "rules" of movement and use for the "dead" weapon systems, then, yeah, I'd venture that a pretty close approximation is possible and, perhaps, identical interpretations are possible to achieve even if impossible to "prove."  The "rules" for "verification" really haven't changed:  Does it match the extant descriptions and images?  Does it work?  Does it follow the "rules" of fencing theory, particularly any listed in the manuals?
* *


> If you are training in the US or Europe where and who would be a good person to study with?  Why?


Big places.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 16, 2015)

Keith thanks for the lengthy explanation.  *Your knowledge in this field exceeds most people that I know and certainly mine.  *Very interesting that certain lines have the lineage but lost skill sets with certain weapons/tools based on the times.

One thing that is interesting though in the initial part of your answer is the verifiable results in resisting confrontations.  Which on a base level for effectiveness I have no problem with.  However, if that is the only methodology to determine who understands medieval fighting?  *That would be a shame*.  Do they really understand medieval fighting and weaponry or are they just an athlete.  Because certain people will succeed regardless of  how good or how bad their training is. (attributes + athleticism)  Certainly that cannot be all there is to it because peoples attributes and athleticism would play a huge part in their success.  Nor is athleticism and attributes indicative of medieval fighting skills.  *Anymore than a competition is with medieval tools*.  What would be indicative of medieval skill sets were ones that have been passed down whether through a family, lineage, etc.  Like you mentioned with the unbroken lines but changes made in the weapons/tools utilized.   

So that brings me back to the question for people interested in Western martial arts *who are the leaders in this field*?  Why and how did they learn!  What makes them a good instructor in WMA?

We have manuals.  Who learned from a manual and now teaches?  Why are they good or competent? 

Who learned from a teacher who learned from a manual and now teaches?  Why are they competent?

Who learned in an unbroken line?  Surely there are some in Europe who can verify this?

Was anyone a martial artist in an Asian style and it permeates what they do in their WMA?

*Here are the really big questions for people interested in pursuing WMA:*

If I am in the United States who is reputable with their skill sets, lineage, etc.?
If I am in Europe who is reputable with skill sets, lineage, etc.?

For anyone outside of the Western martial arts these are questions that they probably would like answered?  So they can make an informed decision on who to train with and know that they are not being ripped off.


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## lklawson (Sep 16, 2015)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Keith


???  Kirk?  



> One thing that is interesting though in the initial part of your answer is the verifiable results in resisting confrontations.  Which on a base level for effectiveness I have no problem with.  However, if that is the only methodology to determine who understands medieval fighting?  *That would be a shame*.  Do they really understand medieval fighting and weaponry or are they just an athlete.  Because certain people will succeed regardless of  how good or how bad their training is. (attributes + athleticism)  Certainly that cannot be all there is to it because peoples attributes and athleticism would play a huge part in their success.  Nor is athleticism and attributes indicative of medieval fighting skills.  *Anymore than a competition is with medieval tools*.


You have the same problem with Judo, for example.  



> So that brings me back to the question for people interested in Western martial arts *who are the leaders in this field*?  Why and how did they learn!  What makes them a good instructor in WMA?
> 
> We have manuals.  Who learned from a manual and now teaches?  Why are they good or competent?
> 
> ...


It's a big world.  The U.S. is big.  Europe is big.  The closest I've ever been able to answer this question is, "where exactly are you at?"  There's usually someone who's decent near there, but not always.  And, often, they have students who I've never heard of.  But if they come from a reputable source, odds are good that what they're teaching is good material.

Where it really starts to get wonky is when people start to want "certification" and "rank."  Rank offered in AEMMA isn't worth a whole lot in ARMA and neither of them mean much in the modern Fencing system.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 16, 2015)

Cool Kirk,

Anything you could recommend for prospective students of WMA to avoid?   Without fraudbusting of course.


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## Argus (Sep 16, 2015)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> *I have all the respect in the world for practitioner's of Western martial studies so the following questions are posed to help people get to the right sources:*
> 
> The bigger question and I am not saying this to begin an argument or be rude is are there *"real"* experts on medieval fighting?  Meaning, if most of the information we have has been translated from manuscripts do they really understand what people did back then?  If there are "experts" who are they?  How did they become and expert in their system?
> 
> ...



Iklawson gave an excellent response here already, but I thought I would add some thoughts here:

1. I've studied a number of manuals in depth, and I believe that there is absolutely enough information out there to authentically practice these arts. Granted, that's just my take, for whatever that's worth.

2. I would argue (and be right) in saying that, because these arts have been documented and passed down with explicit instructions from the founders, they are more intact (short of, perhaps, a few koryu arts from Japan, but even that is debatable) than even the most conservative lineage of traditional martial arts that has been passed down from individual to individual.

3. Many of these manuals -- especially the later ones, were intended as instructional manuals. If the authors believed their art could be accurately understood and practiced via their instructions, there's much to be said for that.

I do not subscribe to the commonly held belief that one needs someone there to teach them, even after a number of years of training with teachers in traditional systems. I _do_ believe that this is the far better method if you want to learn a martial art which has a living lineage. But you must be aware that what you are learning is just as incomplete and modified from your teacher's teacher's teacher's practice as would be your own practice if you had very, very carefully and thoroughly studied and reconstructed the art via many detailed sources, cross reference, and experience in related martial arts.

At the end of the day, Martial Arts are an objective endeavor, and operate based on limiting principles and common experience. While there is plenty of room for misinterpretation if one is not careful and thorough in their approach, it is very possible to authentically reconstruct the practice of these arts, and there are a large number of practitioners who have done just this. The kind of scholarly work, careful study, exploration, and cross reference of sources, critical examination and re-examination of one's practice, interpretations, theories, and hypothesis employed by credible HEMA scholars practitioners is nothing short of astounding, and is something that martial artists of all systems would do well to learn from.

Just as with anything in science, objective truth is accessible if one has the will and intelligence to make a serious study of something, and does not require the approval or transmission of any perceived figure of authority.


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## lklawson (Sep 16, 2015)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Anything you could recommend for prospective students of WMA to avoid?


Instructors wearing pointed rubber ears?  

Seriously, however, it's just something that a person is going to have to research.  Find out where the instructor/club got their training/certification and then track that down.  Find out the reputation of the club and the rep of the org they may be associated with.

It's a little like the advice people get when asking about a BJJ or MMA school, or, really pretty much any martial arts school.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 16, 2015)

So Argus, you would objectively argue that studying from a manual is better than learning from a teacher with an authentic and traceable lineage?  That is what I took from your #3.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 16, 2015)

lklawson said:


> Instructors wearing pointed rubber ears?
> 
> Seriously, however, it's just something that a person is going to have to research.  Find out where the instructor/club got their training/certification and then track that down.  Find out the reputation of the club and the rep of the org they may be associated with.
> 
> ...



*I would totally agree to avoiding someone with rubber ears or other strange accoutrements.  *  However, to a new person starting out looking into HEMA or WMA there has to be some sort of guidance out there to help them.  Just saying do some research could be daunting to someone with no background in WMA and no qualities to do good research and to make an educated opinion on where to study.  I totally get it if you do not want to say don't train with this person but.................*maybe if I rephrase the question? *

Kirk who if you had the opportunity and money was not an object who would you train with in the US and Europe?


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## Argus (Sep 16, 2015)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> So Argus, you would objectively argue that studying from a manual is better than learning from a teacher with an authentic and traceable lineage?  That is what I took from your #3.



Nope.

I would argue for both. I don't see any need for an "either or" approach. But of the two, there's far more room for error in your own interpretations as a beginner, and you can make much better progress training with someone experienced. So, even in the practice of HEMA, it's best to find someone knowledgeable to train with and get grounded in the art, but all the while retaining a critical and questioning mindset, referencing the original sources, and re-examining your practice.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 16, 2015)

Langenschwert said:


> I'd have a hard time calling this HEMA in the strict sense. There are no manuals detailing early medieval combat. The earliest is from 1300-ish for sword & buckler. Perhaps they are using late medieval manuals and adapting it to earlier weapons, hard to say. I'd doubt it. The spear on spear looked legit, but most of it seemed like straight-up reenactment. Reenactment =/= HEMA, anymore than WWE = jujutsu.
> 
> It certainly ain't safe the way they're doing it. But no full-contact combat sport is particularly safe.



I bring up these questions because I personally think it would be very, very hard for someone starting out to have any clue what is and is not HEMA or what is just a form of athletic sparring with old weapons.  How to separate the two for the novice?


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 16, 2015)

Argus said:


> Nope.
> 
> I would argue for both. I don't see any need for an "either or" approach. But of the two, there's far more room for error in your own interpretations as a beginner, and you can make much better progress training with someone experienced. So, even in the practice of HEMA, it's best to find someone knowledgeable to train with and get grounded in the art, but all the while retaining a critical and questioning mindset, referencing the original sources, and re-examining your practice.



Which brings me back to a main question for someone interested in HEMA.  *Who are the knowledgeable practitioners?
What are the credentials?*


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## Argus (Sep 16, 2015)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Which brings me back to a main question for someone interested in HEMA.  *Who are the knowledgeable practitioners?
> What are the credentials?*



I'd say the credentials are the same as they are in any area of academia. The value of your work is measured by your peers -- other people who have taken the time to make themselves knowledgeable, do their research, and review your work.

It really depends what you're interested in studying. If you ask "who are some credible authorities on X," we (or others who are more knowledgeable about X in the HEMA community) can give you some recommendations. And then, ultimately, you just have to look at what everyone is doing, read the original sources for yourself, and decide for yourself who's making the best study and practice of X.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 16, 2015)

Okay Argus, who in your opinion in the HEMA community is worth studying with and why?  Or as I asked Kirk if money was no object who would you study with in the US and Europe?


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## Argus (Sep 16, 2015)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Okay Argus, who in your opinion in the HEMA community is worth studying with and why?  Or as I asked Kirk if money was no object who would you study with in the US and Europe?



That depends what you want to study, but as for myself, I'd study Longsword with Keith Farrell, Dierk Hagedorn, and Christian Tobler, and I'd study Sword and Buckler with Roland Warzecha.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 16, 2015)

Very cool and I have heard at least one of the names before!


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## lklawson (Sep 16, 2015)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> However, to a new person starting out looking into HEMA or WMA there has to be some sort of guidance out there to help them.  Just saying do some research could be daunting to someone with no background in WMA and no qualities to do good research and to make an educated opinion on where to study.


Sure, but it's the same thing with most other martial arts.  It's why there's always a post on the newbie forum asking if a given instructor or school is "any good."  BJJ, Ninjitsu, Boxing, Aikijujutsu, whatever.  It's always the same question for the newbie and always for the same reason.



> Kirk who if you had the opportunity and money was not an object who would you train with in the US and Europe?


Depends on what I wanted to study.  For instance, if I wanted Spanish Rapier, I'd go visit Maestro Ramon Martinez.  Fiore would be Bob Charron.  When I wanted Bowie & 'Hawk, I went to Dwight McLemore (and his students such as Steve Huff).  Jogo do Pau, Randal Gustitis.  Highland Broadsword, Chris Thompson.  Navaja, James Loriega.  Marrozo, Brad Waller.  I.33, Jared Kirby.   Frankly, the list is freaking *HUGE* for good instructors and there are a lot of other guys who I'd also go to for some of these.

There is, literally, no good way to make a comprehensive list.  Could you make a comprehensive list of all the BJJ, GJJ, and Machado schools without having to update it every 3rd week?

I know it seems "unhelpful" to just write, "prospective students need to do their research and ask around" but that's what they have to do with every other martial art if they want to avoid a McDojo.  Why should WMA be any different?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Sep 16, 2015)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I bring up these questions because I personally think it would be very, very hard for someone starting out to have any clue what is and is not HEMA or what is just a form of athletic sparring with old weapons.  How to separate the two for the novice?


Same way they do with any other martial art.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Sep 16, 2015)

Argus said:


> That depends what you want to study, but as for myself, I'd study Longsword with Keith Farrell, Dierk Hagedorn, and Christian Tobler, and I'd study Sword and Buckler with Roland Warzecha.


See, even our lists, when covering the same material (Longsword or Sword & Buckler) are different.  There are a lot of reputable people out there.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 16, 2015)

Kirk truthfully it is on the person looking for instruction to research, check out a class, etc. to figure out if it is the right fit for them.  However, having said that both you and Argus listed some people that they could start with and move on from there.  This is easily done as well with most systems.  Yet, you are right in the end they will have to go to the instructor, see a class, participate and eventually decide if it is for them!


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## jks9199 (Sep 16, 2015)

Okay, maybe a different phrasing would help.  If I wanted to start studying HEMA, how might I go about finding a quality program?  What are the red flags of a bad program?  (I assume we can count wearing wizards robes and talking spell casting is bad...)  Are the folks at renaissance fairs good starting points? What about the SCA?

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## Argus (Sep 17, 2015)

jks9199 said:


> Okay, maybe a different phrasing would help.  If I wanted to start studying HEMA, how might I go about finding a quality program?  What are the red flags of a bad program?  (I assume we can count wearing wizards robes and talking spell casting is bad...)  Are the folks at renaissance fairs good starting points? What about the SCA?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk



Folks at renaissance fairs and the SCA are generally not a good starting point. Though, you never know -- you might come across some HEMA groups there putting on a demonstration or some-such. 

HEMA groups are generally practice as you would expect any martial arts classes to be conducted. They generally practice in plain clothes, with the use of whatever fencing equipment (such as masks and gloves) that is required. Not many people outside of HEMA use the terms "Historical European Martial Arts" or "Western Martial Arts," so if they're advertising themselves as such, that's at least a good sign. I would also ask them what systems they study -- if they're running a Longsword class, for example, are they studying Liechtenauer, or Fiore? If they give a generic answer and don't seem to know anything about the commonly studied systems / treatises, that's a dead give-away.


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## lklawson (Sep 17, 2015)

jks9199 said:


> Okay, maybe a different phrasing would help.  If I wanted to start studying HEMA, how might I go about finding a quality program?


Where are you located and what do you want to study?  If you want to study Italian Longsword but the nearest study group only studies German, then your out of luck.



> What are the red flags of a bad program?  (I assume we can count wearing wizards robes and talking spell casting is bad...)


Pretty much the same as any martial arts school.  Do they actually spar?  What sort of interaction do they have with other WMA groups?  What are their sources and training?  Same things.



> Are the folks at renaissance fairs good starting points?


Depends on what you want to study and what the Ren Fair guy is doing.  Some can be good sources, some are entertainers.



> What about the SCA?


Most of the standardized SCA competitive "fighting" really won't be representative of Medieval fighting skills.  However, the SCA, in general, has a large and growing body of participants who study historic fighting methods.  Certain regions will have more or less and may have local competitive rules which foster more historically accurate (and useful for "fighting") action.  The SCA can sometimes be a good place to locate WMA but it can also be just a big ol' dud.  Your results may vary.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 17, 2015)

Standard SCA heavy weapon fighting is not historically accurate at all. (I never tried the period fencing, so I can't comment on that.)

However, SCA heavy weapon fighting does build attributes that would probably be useful for HEMA sparring. In addition, it can give you experience in group fighting in formation which is _*very*_ different from one-on-one combat. It's my impression (Kirk can correct me if I'm wrong) that most of the historical manuals the HEMA folks are working from are primarily focused on one-on-one combat.


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## lklawson (Sep 17, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> However, SCA heavy weapon fighting does build attributes that would probably be useful for HEMA sparring.


Sure.  Getting fit and in shape for a given type of exercise, developing the muscles associated with swinging a "weapon," and getting used to being hit go a long way to developing an appropriate mind set.  I've seen some research which indicates that similar "waster" and wooden weapons were used for training in a Medieval context.



> In addition, it can give you experience in group fighting in formation which is _*very*_ different from one-on-one combat. It's my impression (Kirk can correct me if I'm wrong) that most of the historical manuals the HEMA folks are working from are primarily focused on one-on-one combat.


Nah, you're right.  Most of the manuals and fight-books I've seen spend the majority of their time in single person combat, and even duels.  Delving into group and formation fighting tends to be the exception rather than the rule.  However, I recall several years ago someone translated a section of an old pole-arm manual which was intended for lines and groups.  It was very short.

Conceptually, it's the difference between military basic training for a bullet catch... er... front-line infantry as compared to highly specialized officer training.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Argus (Sep 17, 2015)

lklawson said:


> Sure.  Getting fit and in shape for a given type of exercise, developing the muscles associated with swinging a "weapon," and getting used to being hit go a long way to developing an appropriate mind set.  I've seen some research which indicates that similar "waster" and wooden weapons were used for training in a Medieval context.
> 
> Nah, you're right.  Most of the manuals and fight-books I've seen spend the majority of their time in single person combat, and even duels.  Delving into group and formation fighting tends to be the exception rather than the rule.  *However, I recall several years ago someone translated a section of an old pole-arm manual which was intended for lines and groups. * It was very short.
> 
> ...



What manual is that? I'm actually curious to learn more about formation fighting.


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## geezer (Sep 17, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> For goodness sake, why are you so touchy?  ...You seem to keep reading so much more into a few words that I could possible have meant.



What Tez said.

In other words, why are you guys even arguing?  If I could get to the Royal Armories, I certainly would. Ancient weapons... demos... people actually smithing and making weapons. That sounds really cool.

Now if I had time to take on anther art, HEMA is one of the tops on my list. Then I'd walk across the school courtyard to the "A Building" and have a chat with a colleague who is heavily involved. In fact he just published a book on _Polish Saber_ that has been well received. If you want to actually participate, _of course_ you want to find people who both research and actually fight.

In the meantime I'll just hang out here. But I must admit that I am perplexed at how quickly a minor misunderstanding can blow up into a major argument ...and between some of the best contributors on the forum. Silly, really.


...Oh dear. I now see that my comments are a couple of pages behind and all this is no longer relevant. Well, look who feels silly now.


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## Argus (Sep 17, 2015)

geezer said:


> What Tez said.
> 
> In other words, why are you guys even arguing?  If I could get to the Royal Armories, I certainly would. Ancient weapons... demos... people actually smithing and making weapons. That sounds really cool.
> 
> ...



Eh, I guess. I also felt that Tez was far too dismissive of HEMA, though, and seems to be under the mistaken perception that people at the Royal Armories know more about the use of historic arms and armor than those who actually study their use and train with them. 

That's like going to a firearms collector in order to learn tactical shooting. You'll learn a lot about the fire-arms themselves, but you won't learn about their actual use. I think Iklawson was merely trying to correct that misconception. As did I in another thread, and received a similarly dismissive response.


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## lklawson (Sep 17, 2015)

Argus said:


> What manual is that? I'm actually curious to learn more about formation fighting.


I think it was Van Buren's Pike Drill, I believe.

Not much to it.

http://www.truefork.org/DragonPreservationSociety/vanburen2.pdf

Translation:
Handling the pike

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## geezer (Sep 17, 2015)

Argus said:


> Eh, I guess. I also felt that Tez was far too dismissive of HEMA, though, and seems to be under the mistaken perception that people at the Royal Armories know more about the use of historic arms and armor than those who actually study their use and train with them.  ...I think Iklawson was merely trying to correct that misconception...



Well, assuming were dealing with reasonable and intelligent people (and that's been pretty well established for both parties here) then a respectful, informative correction expressed in a positive tone  will accomplish a lot more than the same thought expressed with an argumentative attitude.

...And beyond that, there are some people you just don't want to tick-off. I mean, you've seen Tez's avatar ...the _seriously_ grumpy grey cat, right? I assume she chose that image for a reason!


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## Tez3 (Sep 18, 2015)

Gentlemen, I'm not at all 'dismissive' of HEMA, however I think you are far too defensive. I don't think the people at the Royal Armouries 'know more'. I think and I'm sure you will 'correct' me as you seem to think you know what I mean better than I do that someone has read into my posts far more than there ever was there. My posts were neither 'dismissive' or hugely over serious, perhaps I've over estimated how intensely protective some people are that they can cry insult at the word 'only' and read into it a world of hurt and pain. Really, gentlemen, why does posting up a place, somewhere centuries old, pose such a threat that you are still debating it? Why are people so defensive? why didn't someone ask me what I meant if they didn't understand it correctly instead of attacking me because they _thought they knew what I meant?. _Then turn it into an argument by saying I was trying to get out of what I said? No, I'm not trying to get out of what I said which was merely to tell people about a nice place I go for information, you don't have to go, you don't have to ask for information, you don't even have to read what I had written, though if you do I would ask you read it properly but then I'm not responsible for what you understand only what I write.
 It's Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur is coming, what makes you think I even have time to be 'dismissive' of anything? We've hit a political situation in the UK that needs fighting and defending, we have hundreds of thousands of refugees who need helping and thousands more who want them gassed and you think I have time to be 'dismissive'? The Security Services have announced we are under the biggest threat of terrorist attacks in 30 years and I have bigots and racists to destroy ( if you ever thought what I write here is acerbic try what seeing what they get) No, gentlemen, unscrunch your knickers and step down off your high horses, I wasn't being dismissive, didn't even mention it, was trying to give some information that you felt insulted your male egos. Now, I'm away because the real world is calling. Shana Tova to one and all.


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## lklawson (Sep 18, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Gentlemen, I'm not at all 'dismissive' of HEMA, however I think you are far too defensive. I don't think the people at the Royal Armouries 'know more'. I think and I'm sure you will 'correct' me as you seem to think you know what I mean better than I do that someone has read into my posts far more than there ever was there. My posts were neither 'dismissive' or hugely over serious, perhaps I've over estimated how intensely protective some people are that they can cry insult at the word 'only' and read into it a world of hurt and pain. Really, gentlemen, why does posting up a place, somewhere centuries old, pose such a threat that you are still debating it? Why are people so defensive? why didn't someone ask me what I meant if they didn't understand it correctly instead of attacking me because they _thought they knew what I meant?. _Then turn it into an argument by saying I was trying to get out of what I said? No, I'm not trying to get out of what I said which was merely to tell people about a nice place I go for information, you don't have to go, you don't have to ask for information, you don't even have to read what I had written, though if you do I would ask you read it properly but then I'm not responsible for what you understand only what I write.
> It's Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur is coming, what makes you think I even have time to be 'dismissive' of anything? We've hit a political situation in the UK that needs fighting and defending, we have hundreds of thousands of refugees who need helping and thousands more who want them gassed and you think I have time to be 'dismissive'? The Security Services have announced we are under the biggest threat of terrorist attacks in 30 years and I have bigots and racists to destroy ( if you ever thought what I write here is acerbic try what seeing what they get) No, gentlemen, unscrunch your knickers and step down off your high horses, I wasn't being dismissive, didn't even mention it, was trying to give some information that you felt insulted your male egos. Now, I'm away because the real world is calling. Shana Tova to one and all.


Let it go.

Your posts came across as dismissive.  No one is being "over sensitive."   Just accept that what you wrote didn't read, to several people, as you had intended it to.  It happens all the time.  Just accept it and say, "OK, sorry.  Wasn't my intention."  Then let it go.


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## Tez3 (Sep 18, 2015)

Whatever, just accept you read wrongly what I wrote , why would it be me that's wrong? After all I KNOW what I wrote and I KNOW how I meant it to sound so I'm guessing I'm not in the wrong here.


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## Argus (Sep 18, 2015)

Words are a clumsy, abstract means of communication, and often, disagreements are characterized by *both/all *parties presuming to know the intended meaning of the other.

For example, I'm still not sure why Tez thought Iklawson/I are being sensitive or defensive.
But on the other hand, if she feels that we're misinterpreting what she meant to say, who are we to argue?

Anyway. I look forward to reading many more of Tez's posts_ that don't have to do with HEMA and the Royal Armouries._


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## lklawson (Sep 18, 2015)

Argus said:


> Words are a clumsy, abstract means of communication, and often, disagreements are characterized by *both/all *parties presuming to know the intended meaning of the other.
> 
> For example, I'm still not sure why Tez thought Iklawson/I are being sensitive or defensive.
> But on the other hand, if she feels that we're misinterpreting what she meant to say, who are we to argue?
> ...


What did you think of the Pike Drill?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Argus (Sep 18, 2015)

lklawson said:


> What did you think of the Pike Drill?
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



It's interesting. 

As I expected, it seems like a simple manual at arms as one would find in, say, any Napoleonic or Civil War drill manual.


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## Tez3 (Sep 18, 2015)

Argus said:


> That's like going to a firearms collector in order to learn tactical shooting. You'll learn a lot about the fire-arms themselves, but you won't learn about their actual use.



You missed the bit about where  they do _practical demonstrations with the arms, where they practice with the arms and where they_ _research the* use* of said arms, where I said they have experts in the use, _*practical*_ *use* of the arms_...of course you did but they know nuffink according to you roflmao. Did you think they just collected arms for the cleaners to dust.....? The place is a research facility for the *use* of the bloody things and they really do know how to use weapons but you don't want to know that do you?  Gosh you guys are so _dismissive._
It's where I learnt to use a Japanese bow...from a curator...on a course there.
Almost learnt to use an English longbow but the pull is too much for me, learnt to use a musket though..............but of course they don't know how to use them so how could I have possibly learnt.  Gentlemen, so long, farewell, Auf Wiedersehn, goodnight to you and you and you.  it's been emotional.


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## Argus (Sep 18, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> You missed the bit about where  they do _practical demonstrations with the arms, where they practice with the arms and where they_ _research the* use* of said arms, where I said they have experts in the use, _*practical*_ *use* of the arms_...of course you did but they know nuffink according to you roflmao. Did you think they just collected arms for the cleaners to dust.....? The place is a research facility for the *use* of the bloody things and they really do know how to use weapons but you don't want to know that do you?  Gosh you guys are so _dismissive._
> It's where I learnt to use a Japanese bow...from a curator...on a course there.
> Almost learnt to use an English longbow but the pull is too much for me, learnt to use a musket though..............but of course they don't know how to use them so how could I have possibly learnt.  Gentlemen, so long, farewell, Auf Wiedersehn, goodnight to you and you and you.  it's been emotional.



It's a metaphor. For the record, most firearms collectors do shoot, and do a lot of research as well. It's merely the focus of their research and the methods that I am trying to draw a general contrast of. Let me be more straight forward and to the point though:

I do not think that they know "nuffink," "roflmao." To be clear, I would really enjoy visiting the Royal Armouries and learning what they have to share. Nor do I intend to devalue any research conducted there. What I am saying is that everyone's research is focused and specialized. You will find many different approaches.

For example, can you tell me more about the use of the Japanese bow that you learned? There are many different contexts and methods for using the bow in Japan. There is modern Kyuudou, with forms of both competitive and meditative practice. There is mounted, ritualistic practice of the bow, referred to as Yabusame. And there are still older traditions and methods for using the bow.

To make a more direct comparison, if you, for example, went there and had someone show you the use of the Japanese sword, what exactly would you learn? There are dozens and dozens of Koryuu sword arts in Japan, all with different methods, and with different approaches. There is no "general" approach that could be given. And to really gain an understanding of any one of those arts takes years of training in that art. Now, might you find someone who is well researched in several methods, perhaps able to teach you Iaidou, or Kendou, or even some particular Koryuu? Absolutely! But he is a specialist, and he is martial artist who is part of the martial arts community, and practices martial arts just as anyone else. If, on the other hand, someone is attempting to give you an "overall" and "generalized" approach to X, you must recognize it for what it is -- a general impression, and not a functional in-depth study of any method in particular.

What would I learn if I go to the Royal Armouries and seek out an understanding of, say, how to use a Longsword? Will I be able to discuss interpretations of Fiore, Dobringer, Danzig, Ringeck, Wallerstein, Mair, Meyer, and other historical sources and methods, delving into both Blossfechten and Harnisfechten? Surely there's no single individual who is an expert on all of these and can present them all in a generalized method of instruction, unless they're approaching it from the standpoint of experimental archeology -- which certainly has value, but is also limited in its approach. If, on the other hand, you find me someone with whom I can discuss in detail any of the historical systems and methods I listed above (which indicate knowledge and expertise on martial training and use of the weapon), I will be very surprised if that individual is not a part of the HEMA community. One simply has to be in order to have sufficient in-depth knowledge of the subject matter.

You know more about the Royal Armouries than I do, and I know more about HEMA than you do, so it's natural that we would approach a comparison from opposite sides. But I doubt if that needs be, or even is the case at all. No earnest study or research conducted in the use of historical european arms and armour would overlook the contributions of the HEMA community, any more than the HEMA community would overlook any contributions such as the research conducted by various individuals at the Royal Armouries.


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## jks9199 (Sep 18, 2015)

lklawson said:


> Let it go.
> 
> Your posts came across as dismissive.  No one is being "over sensitive."   Just accept that what you wrote didn't read, to several people, as you had intended it to.  It happens all the time.  Just accept it and say, "OK, sorry.  Wasn't my intention."  Then let it go.


Agree with this.  Miscommunications happen all the time online, because so much of our actual communication takes place through non-verbal indicators like tone of voice, facial expression, even timing of the response.  These all can be lost online, especially across very different time zones.  Many readers found something in Tez's reply she didn't intend.  It's been beat to death, I think...


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## Langenschwert (Sep 18, 2015)

drop bear said:


> What is the injury level like?



I can't speak for the group in the video, but at its more extreme levels, heavy combat can be very intense. I often quote this post, and I'll do it again here with regards to Battle of the Nations-style combat, which those folks may or may not be. It's a great read nonetheless:



> Gentlemen. I would like to address the question of the Original Poster.
> 
> This is purely my opinion, and is not meant as some kind of blanket statement from my Brothers.
> 
> ...



There is no HEMA group that I'm aware of that would tolerate that level of injury. The worst I've seen is a broken finger in weapon sparring. The grappling is of course, more dangerous and in tournament has a fairly high injury rate. Any Ringen (medieval stand-up grappling) tournament I've seen or participated in has seen people sent to the hospital, though no one required surgery. When we do Ringen in my club it is very tightly controlled. No free sparring for that yet.


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## Langenschwert (Sep 18, 2015)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I bring up these questions because I personally think it would be very, very hard for someone starting out to have any clue what is and is not HEMA or what is just a form of athletic sparring with old weapons.  How to separate the two for the novice?



Wow, that's a good question.

Well, the first thing to do is ask the folks themselves. They should be able to tell you what they are. Just because it looks like HEMA doesn't mean it is. Medieval/Renaissance/Enlightenment weaponry does not mean it's "legit" HEMA. It might be legit "something else", and that's cool.

SCA =/= HEMA 
HMB/BOTN =/= HEMA
Reenactment =/= HEMA
LARPing =/= HEMA
Game of Thrones =/= HEMA
Classical Fencing may or may not be HEMA, depending. It has a living lineage, but sometimes applies that to interpreting rapier and smallsword, for example.

HEMA must be based on historical manuals. They should be able to tell you which manuals they use and why. No manuals = no HEMA. Other than that, it's fairly open. I have my opinions on what good HEMA is: solid interpretations, pressure testing, lots of sparring and as many tournaments as they can manage. Should have some solid conditioning as well. Others may disagree. Some HEMA types don't spar at all. Just because it's HEMA doesn't mean it's "good". However, no one group has the collar on "good HEMA". You will find excellent practitioners all over the world.

Being HEMA doesn't mean that the group is necessarily better at fighting than others that may appear superficially similar. Some HEMA-looking weapons will actually have living lineages (Hungarian sabre for example), though they are rare. 

HEMA is a very broad term, encompassing a wide variety of different martial arts. For many, HEMA = longsword, but that's not the case. Some HEMAists have never even picked up a longsword. Some HEMA folks only do unarmed. HEMA is more like the term "kung fu". Could mean literally anything.


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## Steve (Sep 18, 2015)

HEMA =/= HEMI 
HEMA =/= AHEM

But in all seriousness, I appreciate the post.  Very interesting.


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## lklawson (Sep 21, 2015)

jks9199 said:


> Agree with this.  Miscommunications happen all the time online, because so much of our actual communication takes place through non-verbal indicators like tone of voice, facial expression, even timing of the response.  These all can be lost online, especially across very different time zones.  Many readers found something in Tez's reply she didn't intend.  It's been beat to death, I think...


I took a Selfie:









Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## drop bear (Sep 22, 2015)

lklawson said:


> I took a Selfie:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The royal armory would have flogged that horse quicker and more accurately.


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