# Dislocation?



## luigi_m_ (Mar 28, 2006)

Are techniques of dislocation of joints (eg, shoulder, elbo, knee) ever taught in martial arts? I was just wondering, as I thought this would be a really effective method in a fight.


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## bushidomartialarts (Mar 28, 2006)

some of your submission grappling holds use the threat of dislocation to get the opponent to tap out.

many kenpo techniques have dislocation as an option or goal.

some cane techniques from goju-shorei or hapkido will dislocate a shoulder or knee.

those are ones i know of.  i'm certain there are others.


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## luigi_m_ (Mar 28, 2006)

bushidomartialarts said:
			
		

> some of your submission grappling holds use the threat of dislocation to get the opponent to tap out.


 
I suppose. What about with striking techniques, such as a kick with the heel to someone's knee?


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## Hand Sword (Mar 28, 2006)

In my Kempo training we used dislocations in our techniques, as well as other things, with strikes, since the beginning.


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## SFC JeffJ (Mar 28, 2006)

In jujitsu (I do japanese, not BJJ)I study (not submission wrestling), we take many things to just under the point of dislocation for pain compliance.  It would not take much more effort to effect an actual dislocation. As far as dislocation with striking, I'm no expert, but to me that seems like it would be hard to pull off.  I could easily be wrong though.  Many of the strikes and blocks we do will hyper extend joints, primarily the knee and elbow.  It would be great to dislocate joints via striking though.  I'm looking forward to seeing further responses in this thread.

Jeff


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## Martial Tucker (Mar 28, 2006)

luigi_m_ said:
			
		

> I suppose. What about with striking techniques, such as a kick with the heel to someone's knee?



Joint locks that control your opponent and offer you the option of breaking a limb or dislocating the involved joint are a centerpiece of the Hapkido curriculum. Part of the beauty of it is that it allows you the flexibility to tailor the aggression of your response to that of the attack(er). Also, a good, traditional TaeKwonDo curriculum will absolutely involve low kicks to the opponents knee, with the intent of dislocation. The knee is a relatively fragile,
"high value" target if you need to end a fight quickly, and most attackers focus on defending their head, so the knee is also usually an easy target.


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## stickarts (Mar 28, 2006)

We have dislocation techniques in kenpo.


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## tempus (Mar 28, 2006)

Most of Nihon Goshin Aikido is joint locks and then dislcoation if need be (by pressure of joint lock or strike).  Especially when trying to remove a weapon from someones hand.  I can also see many dislocations occuring to someone if they did not know how to take a fall, flip or roll out of the pain of a joint lock properly.  My wrists, shoulders and elbows can attest to not flipping or rolling with the pain quick enough.


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## beau_safken (Mar 28, 2006)

Pretty much every technique in Penjak Silat is all about dislocation.  In a fight I can't imagine a more powerful technique.  Not only does hyperextension and breaks hurt...they interupt a persons thought process and will give you those seconds you need to win.


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## SFC JeffJ (Mar 28, 2006)

Just wanted to say I was an idiot in my last post here.  Somehow kicking the knee didn't come into my head while thinking about it.  

Jeff


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## theletch1 (Mar 28, 2006)

tempus said:
			
		

> Most of Nihon Goshin Aikido is joint locks and then dislcoation if need be (by pressure of joint lock or strike). Especially when trying to remove a weapon from someones hand. I can also see many dislocations occuring to someone if they did not know how to take a fall, flip or roll out of the pain of a joint lock properly. My wrists, shoulders and elbows can attest to not flipping or rolling with the pain quick enough.


Come along pops to mind real quick on the dislocation idea.    I suppose most ANY joint lock can be taken to the point of dislocation if need be but as was stated by Jeffj it's usually a point just shy of dislocation/breaking that you want things to be for pain compliance.  Think about the joint as leverage.  As long as it's in socket you have a viable lever.  Once it's out of socket it may still hurt like hell but you don't have the leverage needed to move your attacker.


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## Jimi (Mar 28, 2006)

theletch1 said:
			
		

> Come along pops to mind real quick on the dislocation idea.  I suppose most ANY joint lock can be taken to the point of dislocation if need be but as was stated by Jeffj it's usually a point just shy of dislocation/breaking that you want things to be for pain compliance. Think about the joint as leverage. As long as it's in socket you have a viable lever. Once it's out of socket it may still hurt like hell but you don't have the leverage needed to move your attacker.


I agree that when a limb is still intact (not broken or dislocated) it makes a good lever. But I don't agree that once it is broken/dislocated you don't have the leverage needed to move your attacker, the lever may not be a solid one, but your opponent will certainly move if you lever on any broken/dislocted limb. My Instructor taught us if a wrist lock,arm bar (what have you) does not feel like it will control your opponent, break the wrist/arm etc... he will be that much more compliant to your lock/throw/takedown etc... or he will continue to tear muscle/tendons & splinter bones. If you break his arm in attempting an arm bar,  the mechanics of the arm bar will no longer be the same. Then you are just grinding broken&torn bone&flesh. I broke his arm now my arm bar is no longer effective doesn't add up to me IMHO.


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## Martial Tucker (Mar 28, 2006)

beau_safken said:
			
		

> Pretty much every technique in Penjak Silat is all about dislocation.  In a fight I can't imagine a more powerful technique.  Not only does hyperextension and breaks hurt...they interupt a persons thought process and will give you those seconds you need to win.




I've cross-trained a bit in Penjak Silat, and I would have to agree.
It is one brutal, nasty art. Some of the techniques I saw got pretty complicated, but I'd hate to be on the receiving end of any of them.


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## theletch1 (Mar 28, 2006)

Jimi said:
			
		

> I agree that when a limb is still intact (not broken or dislocated) it makes a good lever. But I don't agree that once it is broken/dislocated you don't have the leverage needed to move your attacker, the lever may not be a solid one, but your opponent will certainly move if you lever on any broken/dislocted limb. My Instructor taught us if a wrist lock,arm bar (what have you) does not feel like it will control your opponent, break the wrist/arm etc... he will be that much more compliant to your lock/throw/takedown etc... or he will continue to tear muscle/tendons & splinter bones. If you break his arm in attempting an arm bar, the mechanics of the arm bar will no longer be the same. Then you are just grinding broken&torn bone&flesh. I broke his arm now my arm bar is no longer effective doesn't add up to me IMHO.


Perhaps I should have said not AS MUCH leverage to move your attacker.  Yes, I agree that attempting to move away from the pain is instinctual regardless of the actual physical leverage applied on the technique.  I guess my point was that controlling with pain was an incremental thing and that once the break point is surpassed you really don't have any further to go on the scale to take the pain and it then becomes a simple defense technique and no longer a pain compliance technique.  Maybe I'm splitting hairs on this one but it's a topic that I love to play with.


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## beau_safken (Mar 28, 2006)

Martial Tucker said:
			
		

> I've cross-trained a bit in Penjak Silat, and I would have to agree.
> It is one brutal, nasty art. Some of the techniques I saw got pretty complicated, but I'd hate to be on the receiving end of any of them.


 
Yep yeppers.  That was really the bread and butter of our art.  Every technique was applicable with a knife and how to end it fast.  Personally my favorite technique was the camel ride.. Basically when someone has their back to you its a lock move that pins the arms behind the back using your legs to lock the arms with your feet interlocking around the head.  With your two free hands, you were more than welcome to the good old burning the back of the head with a cigarette or using other fun methods.  My guru used that freakin move on me when I least expected it all the damn time and god...I hated it...and loved it...


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## tshadowchaser (Mar 28, 2006)

to answere the first post yes Iteach some ond my instructor taught some. I also know of a few other schools that teach them

I must say that a doctor friend of mine has helped me understand the process better.
also some of the Hawian systems do dislocations a lot


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## Jimi (Mar 28, 2006)

I would hate to be ripped apart with some of the things I have seen in the Martial Arts. In fact I am happy to be walking around healthy without serious injuries from such techniques. My older brothers have trashed their knees and elbows just playing high school and hangover league football and the like. I'm just lucky I guess, lets keep our-selves together HAHAHA. PEACE


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## still learning (Mar 28, 2006)

Hello, You break it?  ...You pay?  ....that's what the Lawyers will say?  

Now!  If your training does not include "Dislocation",  than you better find a new school.  This method is always an optional techinique.  Same with eye gouges,thoat strikes, and a full choke(till the person has no air).

Everyone learns there will always be different levels of destroying your attacker. They could be a friend, the sitution does not call to take a life or break his neck and sometimes being mug/rob/rape/ aduction...you may have to do "whatever"  to survive.

Dislocation will work most times to end a fight quickly. The collar bone needs only about 7lbs of striking power to dislocate it. If you can break a board, you can break a collar bone?  

Know your State laws, and how to protect yourself from the other person Lawyers.  In Hawaii?  You must prove it was self-defense and necessary to end the conflict with no other way out, evening if you were not the trouble maker, and only defending yourself.  There Lawyers will say  you over did it?  ....If you are going to dislocate something the "baby finger is the cheapest I think?  ...................Aloha


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## markh (Mar 29, 2006)

In my Kung Fu class chin na techniques were taught from the start. Wrist locks,finger locks,and stomp kicks to the knee are all very effective at ending a confrontation quickly. Like mentioned above you just have to make sure the situation warrants the amount of force used.


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