# Why is Zen not emphasized in most dojos?



## Freestyler777 (Mar 13, 2007)

Zen is a very important aspect of the martial arts.  In fact, the ancient samurais learned Zen so they would be indifferent to life and death and therefore brave in battle.  Why has the relationship between learning fighting skills and spirituality been so compromised?  

Is it because this is a faithless era in general, or is it because Zen has religious implications that threaten some people of different religious beliefs?  

I think it is essential to practice Zen to be a martial artist.  And, my opinion is, a karate master has to be a zen master if he is genuine.  I don't know karate, i play sport judo, but I imagine that if one knows how to kill people, that skill should go hand in hand with reverence for life and an equanimity when dealing with everyday life problems.  Zen teaches you how to be a good person, and to find your inner nature, before you became conditioned by societal expectations and peer pressure.

Reply if interested in this discussion, please.


----------



## Steel Tiger (Mar 13, 2007)

I don't teach Zen but then again I don't teach a Japanese art.  Given the art I do teach, bagua, I spend time teaching what I can of Daoist philosophy.

Personally, I'm not that big a fan of Zen.  It is a strange modification of the Chan buddhism that grew at Shaolin which is itself a blending of Daoist philosophy with Dhyana Buddhism.  Give me straight forward Daoism everytime.


----------



## exile (Mar 13, 2007)

Freestyler777 said:


> Zen is a very important aspect of the martial arts.  In fact, the ancient samurais learned Zen so they would be indifferent to life and death and therefore brave in battle.  Why has the relationship between learning fighting skills and spirituality been so compromised?
> 
> Is it because this is a faithless era in general, or is it because Zen has religious implications that threaten some people of different religious beliefs?
> 
> ...



Look... people on this forum have been doing martial arts for decades in many cases. They are perfectly capable of deciding for themselves what if any spirituality they need to bring to their MA activities. Your comment, `a karate master has to be a zen master if he is genuine' tells us nothing about being a karate master, being authentic, or anything else except one thing: your preconceptions. It also reveals that you know very, very little of the lives of some of the very greatest katate masters, many of whom would have laughed in your face if you told them what you're telling us. And&#8212;in view of your prescription for what it takes to be a karate master combined with your admission that you know nothing about karate&#8212;it also _strongly_ suggests that you have no problem making ringing pronouncements on topics you know nothing about. This is definitely _not_ a MA discussion board where you're going to find a welcome reception, if that's the case...

I happen to think that it is a crucial part of being a martial arts master of any kind that you keep your opinions of _other_ people's spiritual lives to yourself. Care to discuss _that?_


----------



## Kacey (Mar 13, 2007)

Like Steel Tiger, I do not teach a Japanese art - so why would I teach a Japanese philosophy?  I do teach responsible use of the techniques I teach, but for many people, the use of Asian philosophy (or the philosophy of whatever region your art is from) would turn them away from, rather than onto, a martial art - especially in the beginning.  Most (not all) people join a martial art initially for reasons related to the physical skills - emphasizing anything else early on could drive them away.

It was not until I had been in TKD for several years that I became interested in the philosophy behind what I had learned, beyond the required knowledge of pattern histories, some Korean terms, and some other MA-related information... and when I became interested, I discovered that I had already learned more than I'd realized, and had a base of knowledge, however small and specialized, from which to learn more.  Had it been required that I learn it earlier, when I was still focused on the physical skills, I'd have left, and looked for a facility/style/instructor who taught what I was looking for.

If you are interested specifically in Zen in Japanese arts, perhaps you should post this in Japanese Martial Arts rather than General Martial Arts; if you are interested in the broader question of teaching philosophy in MA then you might wish to broaden your question to generate more responses.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Mar 13, 2007)

Zen is a non Christian tradition.
Sean


----------



## Freestyler777 (Mar 13, 2007)

OK, allow me to address all posts.  First of all, when I say Zen, I do not refer specifically to Zen/Chan Buddhism with the exclusion of all other spiritual systems.  They're all rather similar if you ask me, and what I mean by 'Zen' is, harmony, serenity, nonviolence, equanimity, and reverence.  These qualities should be considered good in any spiritual system/religion/philosophy.  I happen to love Daoist thought, and I read both the Lao Tzu and the Chuang Tzu frequently.  

To respond to Kacey, yes teaching the spiritual aspect of a martial art before the self-defense aspect is like putting the cart before the horse.  But I think there must be some ethical training required to reach the higher levels of any martial art.  Even in an art like Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, which is quite harsh with all its challenge matches and MMA, it takes ten years to get a black belt, and that is only so the teacher can ensure he is entrusting the rank to someone of character and quality.  If you just say, hey I teach self defense and I give knowledge and belts to just anyone, that is like giving children sharp swords.  Even trust of a student's good nature is the 'Zen aspect' of the martial arts.

Touch of Death, I agree.  

And finally, to reply to exile:  All I am saying is, what good is it to anybody to master self-defense and not love and restraint?  Teaching self defense without philosophy or ethics is basically churning out streetfighters and thugs (Dont take that too literally, I'm trying to illustrate a point).  Like stated previously, I say 'Zen' to mean character and ethical training.  Learning martial arts is inherently an act of self-improvement, even if it is just improving your fighting ability?  Then why not improve the quality of a student's psyche as well as their ability to punch and kick?  The Buddha once said, 'Although a good warrior might conquer a thousand men in battle, the greatest and best warrior conquers himself.'  Self control is a vital aspect of the martial arts, whether it be self-defense karate or sport Judo.  I just happen to use a quote from the Buddha to illustrate a point.  I AM NOT PROMOTING ANY RELIGION!  I am talking about teaching the philosophy as well as the fighting to students who have completed the beginning stages of development.  Streetfighters are thugs!  Martial Artists should be gentlemen!

But that is only my opinion.


----------



## Carol (Mar 13, 2007)

The literary work that has had the most influence on the English language is the King James Bible.  The KJV introduced new words that are still in use today such as "scapegoat" and "peacemaker".

Many phrases and idiomatic expressions first expressed in the KJV are still in common use today.    "Bite the dust", "flesh and blood", "as old as the hills", "the blind leading the blind", "fight the good fight",  "sour grapes", "how the mighty have fallen", "the powers that be", and many more phrases are from the KJV.

Yet, a person can communicate beautifully in English without being Christian or knowing where these phrases came from.Zen Buddhism also has very strong roots to the culture of Japan and parts of China.  The influences were steeped in to the fighting arts.  However, Silat is from Indonesia.  The Sumatran people are largely Muslim, the Balinese largely Hindu.  Kali is from the Philippines are home to a large number of Buddhists, Muslims, Christians (majority Catholic), and some Hindus.  Teach just one philosophy, that would not be fair to the others.  Teach all philosophies and we would never get in any training time.

My school has done a lot to promote the exploration and understanding of the cultures that shaped our arts.  My instructors plan regular trips to the Philippines, to Indonesia so we can experience everything ourselves.  But, when we are on the mat, it is time to train and time to work. 
http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/413900.html


----------



## Adept (Mar 13, 2007)

Freestyler777 said:


> Why has the relationship between learning fighting skills and spirituality been so compromised?



It was artificial in the first place. A good fighter can be an amoral, despotic and evil person.


----------



## Carol (Mar 13, 2007)

Freestyler777 said:


> Why has the relationship between learning fighting skills and spirituality been so compromised?





Adept said:


> It was artificial in the first place. A good fighter can be an amoral, despotic and evil person.



I agree.  Martial Arts are not about fighting.  They are about health.

Martial Artists train because they care about protecting and defending health...either their own health and/or someone else's health.

To fight someone without defending one's health isn't martial arts, it's a criminal assault.  Or worse.


----------



## exile (Mar 13, 2007)

Freestyler777 said:


> All I am saying is, what good is it to anybody to master self-defense and not love and restraint?  Teaching self defense without philosophy or ethics is basically churning out streetfighters and thugs (Dont take that too literally, I'm trying to illustrate a point).



Whoa. Wait a minute. Streetfighters and thugs do not, as a rule, learn their skills in a dojo, a dojang or anywhere else. Streetfighters learn their skills on the mean streets where they practice those skills. Someone who gets into extremely violent altercations on a regular basis is shelling out four figures a year for disciplined training at a martial arts school? You consider this a realistic picture?? Surely you realize that this is something out of comic book, right?

So, as you put it, `what good is it to anybody to master self-defense and not love and restraint?' Exactly why do you think that at a few days short of 60 years old I needed the MA I began studying half a decade ago or less to teach me about love and restraint? I started MAs for a very simple reason, the same as many people study it force: so that if I'm violently attacked, _I_ will be the one who gets home in one piece and doesn't take up a hospital bed, as vs., say, my attacker. It's called `self-defense' for a reason. The `good it does' to master self-defense is that you don't get pounded into a bloody pulp by some pathological jerk. Don't you think that that's a good enough reason?



Freestyler777 said:


> Like stated previously, I say 'Zen' to mean character and ethical training.



Ah... so you lean towards the Humpty-Dumpty school of semantics. Remember?

_'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone,' it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.'

'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.' _

Just wanted to get that little point straight. 





Freestyler777 said:


> Learning martial arts is inherently an act of self-improvement, even if it is just improving your fighting ability?  Then why not improve the quality of a student's psyche as well as their ability to punch and kick?



Is learning alpine skiing or chess or rock climbing an act of self-improvement? Well, is it? And if so, is it legitimate for me, as a student's rock-climing instructor, to presume to try to `improve the quality of a student's psyche as well as their ability to [fill in relevant skill here]'. You don't think it would be the teeniest bit arrogant of me to presume that by virtue of my expertise in skill X, I was entitled to experiment in `improvement of the quality' of my student's `psyche'. What the hell kind of _nerve_ are we talking about here, eh??




Freestyler777 said:


> The Buddha once said, 'Although a good warrior might conquer a thousand men in battle, the greatest and best warrior conquers himself.'



So what?? Plenty of people have said plenty of things. You've reported a fact about Gautama's biography. Exactly why should I allow it to guide my own behavior unless I'm already a Buddhist? Don't you see that you're caught up in a very circular line of reasoning: you're urging us to a certain view of things on the basis of the moral/spiritual authority of someone who happens to advocate that view of thing? This is like my telling you that we should believe such-and-such religious doctrine because the creators of that doctrine tell us it's true. This is, to put mildly, _lousy_ logic!





Freestyler777 said:


> Self control is a vital aspect of the martial arts, whether it be self-defense karate or sport Judo.  I just happen to use a quote from the Buddha to illustrate a point.  I AM NOT PROMOTING ANY RELIGION!



Then why did you specifically send an OP to open this thread in which you questioned why dojos do not teach _Zen??_. You weren't asking why dojos don't teach self-restraint, you were asking why they don't teach Zen. 




Freestyler777 said:


> I am talking about teaching the philosophy as well as the fighting to students who have completed the beginning stages of development.



`_THE_ philosophy'??




Freestyler777 said:


> Streetfighters are thugs!  Martial Artists should be gentlemen!



Ah. So apparently the only MAists are `gentlemen'&#8212;the women MAists as well? And to be a gentleman you must be a devotee of Zen...

...and you really believe all this stuff, eh...?  :EG:


----------



## Andrew Green (Mar 13, 2007)

Freestyler777 said:


> Even in an art like Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, which is quite harsh with all its challenge matches and MMA, it takes ten years to get a black belt, and that is only so the teacher can ensure he is entrusting the rank to someone of character and quality.



That is wrong.  It takes as long as it takes to get to the skill level, thats it.  No worthy instructor would hold a person back for 10 year to see if they are "worthy."  BJJ rank is based on how good you are.

My opinion on the matter is quite simple.  Most martial arts instructors are entirely unqualified to teach spirituality or ethics.  There are far better people to do that, that are trained in a academic environment and held to standards to do that.  Being able to do martial arts does not require you to be, or make you into a spiritual leader.


----------



## Ceicei (Mar 13, 2007)

Often, spirituality is a process of self-discovery and cannot always be taught.  However, ethical behavior can be modeled.


----------



## Monadnock (Mar 13, 2007)

I would reccomend, Freestyler777, that you try and find out what influence, if any, Zen really had on the martial arts. I think you may find it had less than you thought. Try some reading over on koryu.com, look into Confucianism, or Shinto, and then seek out some schools that incorporate that into their training.

Yes, clearly there are the letters to Musashi from a noted Zen master, and other popular writings, but since these are easily accessible, they have become the popular fascination here in the US. I would try and find a legitimate Japanese dojo and see what goes on in there.

Good luck in your search,
Mike


----------



## Blotan Hunka (Mar 13, 2007)

Becaue 99.99% of instructors are unqualified to teach Zen.


----------



## exile (Mar 13, 2007)

Blotan Hunka said:


> Becaue 99.99% of instructors are unqualified to teach Zen.



And the reason they aren't is because Zen per se has no necessary relevance to what it is they _are_ qualified to teach, so there is no particular reason why they should _become_ qualified to teach Zen. 99.99...% of alpine skiing racing instructors don't teach Zen either, for precisely the same reason...


----------



## crushing (Mar 13, 2007)

I've got my hands full with forms, techniques, Korean terminology, etc. without mixing it up with, if not the unnecessary, the very personal pursuit of spirituality.

With that being said, I know my Combat Hapkido teacher wouldn't not have accepted me as a student if he didn't think I was a decent person.  He has come right out and told me and the other students that.  THAT is what makes me feel more comfortable training in Combat Hapkido with the other students, not whether they are Zen or not.


----------



## exile (Mar 13, 2007)

crushing said:


> I've got my hands full with forms, techniques, Korean terminology, etc. without mixing it up with, if not the unnecessary, the very personal pursuit of spirituality.



OK, CR, pop quizwhat's the Korean for an inner spread block? No peeking!! 




crushing said:


> With that being said, I know my Combat Hapkido teacher wouldn't not have accepted me as a student if he didn't think I was a decent person.  He has come right out and told me and the other students that.  THAT is what makes me feel more comfortable training in Combat Hapkido with the other students, not whether they are Zen or not.



Right! it's very simple. A responsible teacher won't teach structured violence to someone s/he believes likely to be irresponsible in its use. Why bring Zen (or Zoroastrianism, or Rasta, or anything else) into it?


----------



## tellner (Mar 14, 2007)

I'm going to need to come up with a FAR for martial arts - Frequently Accessed Rants. One of the first will be martial arts and spiritual practices. I'll summarize...

1) Not all martial arts traditions have diddly to do with East or South Asia. 

2) Of those that do, not many have anything to do with Buddhism.

3) Of those which have Buddhist connections, not all have connections to Zen or Ch'an.
   3a) Karate has little or no historical connection to Ch'an in anything but 
         the loosest sense.

4) Most teachers are completely unqualified by training or inclination to be roshis.

5) Many of the students of the few that are have no interest whatsoever in adding Ch'an Buddhism to their lives.


----------



## Freestyler777 (Mar 14, 2007)

OK, it seems that only gorillas post on this website.  I read all your replies, and it seems that not one of you realize that single, unarmed combat, which is wrestling, is not even practiced anymore on the street.  I doubt Karate, or Jiu-jitsu, or Kempo, or TKD, or JKD is very effective against a gun or knife.  And don't tell me about disarming techniques, that is fantasy.  Martial Artists are by nature weak people who speculate on what works in a real fight, but never actually do it.  Believe me, Mr. 280 Crackhead doesn't care if you know all the hot new techniques coming from Brazil, or the ancient techniques of Okinawan Karate, or even if you are a judo champion.  There are very few cases of anyone using martial arts to defend themselves, largely because martial arts are mythology.  If you don't realize that, I feel sorry for you.  You go back to your fantasy kata, and i'll go back to speaking truth and kindness.  Without philosophy, martial arts is a strange form of gymnastics.

Bye.


----------



## Andrew Green (Mar 14, 2007)

Truth and kindness are rather subjective in there meaning.  Coming onto a martial arts board and telling everyone they are livingin in fantasy worlds is hardly either.

I don't know what you do or how it works, but there is a lot of stuff that does work, and there are a lot of people that are in it for sport fighting anyways.

Zen as a major part of the martial arts is the myth, not whether or not learning to fight can make you a better fighter.  It can, that can be proven.


----------



## Captain Harlock (Mar 14, 2007)

Arts taught today are taught to different people, by different people, for different reasons than in days gone by. In order for Zen to be taught, Zen must be present, and most, have not found it. Hard to find something when the search is but a part time activity. 

Then again, there is a saying "The Tao that is seen is not really the Tao". Another saying is, "If you see the Buddha on the road, kill him" implying that truth won't just walk up to you.

Numerous martial cultures have philosophies seeking answers to life. Most are interesting when studied.

One must also understand the difference between a fighting art, a combat art, and a martial art. Most do not.

An master and his student were walking.
The student asked, "Master, where does this road lead us?"
The Master replied, "The air is sweet today, and the flowers beautiful."


----------



## Bigshadow (Mar 14, 2007)

Freestyler777 said:


> I think it is essential to practice Zen to be a martial artist.



Is this true?  Or does it come naturally as a part of the martial arts training?  In the art I train in, we don't train in Zen.  However, after reading Letters from the Zen master to the sword master, I realized that many of the things the Zen master spoke of, I understood, because I could see it and feel it (not everything, but alot of it).  This wasn't because I practiced Zen, I believe in my case it is a natural evolution of my martial arts training.  This is my opinion based on my own training and experiences.

Of course I do believe 10 years from now, my perception of what I read will be far more indepth and could seem quite different at that time.


----------



## Andrew Green (Mar 14, 2007)

Captain Harlock said:


> An master and his student were walking.
> The student asked, "Master, where does this road lead us?"
> The Master replied, "The air is sweet today, and the flowers beautiful."




Zen masters...  poster children for ritalin


----------



## Captain Harlock (Mar 14, 2007)

Some say that of any mystical faith. Zen is not faith but understanding and thought, brought on by thoughtfulness, and non-thought. Understanding is only possible when the mind is clear. What arts truly today promote a clean mind and the action of no actionthought?


----------



## Lisa (Mar 14, 2007)

*MODERATOR NOTE:

Please keep the conversation polite and respectful.

Lisa Deneka
MT Assist. Admin.*


----------



## crushing (Mar 14, 2007)

Freestyler777 said:


> OK, it seems that only gorillas post on this website. I read all your replies, and it seems that not one of you realize that single, unarmed combat, which is wrestling, is not even practiced anymore on the street. I doubt Karate, or Jiu-jitsu, or Kempo, or TKD, or JKD is very effective against a gun or knife. And don't tell me about disarming techniques, that is fantasy. Martial Artists are by nature weak people who speculate on what works in a real fight, but never actually do it. Believe me, Mr. 280 Black Crackhead doesn't care if you know all the hot new techniques coming from Brazil, or the ancient techniques of Okinawan Karate, or even if you are a judo champion. There are very few cases of anyone using martial arts to defend themselves, largely because martial arts are mythology. If you don't realize that, I feel sorry for you. You go back to your fantasy kata, and *i'll go back to speaking truth and kindness.* Without philosophy, martial arts is a strange form of gymnastics.
> 
> Bye.


 
Please don't waste any effort feeling sorry for me, I'm doing just fine.  I don't know that I haven't used MA to defend myself, as part of my MA training is avoid bad people and places and carry myself in a manner that doesn't cry out that I want to be someone's victim.

Out of curiosity, why would you stop speaking truth and kindness?

Anyway, you went from telling us Zen is a requirement for MA, to redefining what Zen means, and when you didn't get the results you sought you totally threw Zen out the window and reduced it to the vague idea of philosophy in your insulting, if not racist, rant.  Zen may be a philosophy, but philosophy doesn't have to be Zen.

Maybe you can share how your idea of Zen or philosophy in general gives you the advantage over Mr. 280 pound crackhead (independent of his color)?


----------



## exile (Mar 14, 2007)

crushing said:


> Please don't waste any effort feeling sorry for me, I'm doing just fine.  I don't know that I haven't used MA to defend myself, as part of my MA training is avoid bad people and places and carry myself in a manner that doesn't cry out that I want to be someone's victim.
> 
> Out of curiosity, why would you stop speaking truth and kindness?
> 
> ...



Rep for that post, my good man, as soon as you've cycled off my current rep-stack. Your words are wasted at this point (`Account closed', eh?) but that's irrelevant. There's always be a next time, unfortunately...


----------



## Xue Sheng (Mar 14, 2007)

I will first start off with I have read none of the responses to this because I do not want to rant or get into it, I have been down this road way to many times before and I really do not want to go there again beyond this.

The question was

Why is Zen not emphasized in most dojos?

Because if you know anything about eastern culture it is intrinsic to the art itself so there is no need to emphasize something that is already there. 

When you walk you use your muscles to move when you study a Japanese martial art there is Zen


----------



## crushing (Mar 14, 2007)

exile said:


> Rep for that post, my good man, as soon as you've cycled off my current rep-stack. Your words are wasted at this point (`Account closed', eh?) but that's irrelevant. There's always be a next time, unfortunately...


 
Thank you.  I didn't notice it was closed.

Also, regarding your pop quiz from an earlier post.  I'd have to cheat to find the Korean terminology for 'inner spread block'.  I assume it goes a little something like 'something something makki'.   

After googling. . .Hecho makki?  Isn't that Spanish for 'Made in Makki'?


----------



## exile (Mar 14, 2007)

crushing said:


> Thank you.  I didn't notice it was closed.
> 
> Also, regarding your pop quiz from an earlier post.  I'd have to cheat to find the Korean terminology for 'inner spread block'.  I assume it goes a little something like 'something something makki'.



LOL...Yup! 



crushing said:


> After googling. . .Hecho makki?  Isn't that Spanish for 'Made in Makki'?



Could be... or it could be something completely idiomatic. My sense is, there are as many different Korean terms for any given KMA technique as there are English descriptions of that tech, which kind of ruins the idea that if we all just used Korean to describe what we're doing, we'd be able to understand what each other were talking about....


----------



## Shaderon (Mar 14, 2007)

Freestyler777 said:


> OK, it seems that only gorillas post on this website.




OOh OOOh I always wanted to meet Gorillas!  Hiya you lot!!  :wavey:   OOh that means me too...  *grunt*




Freestyler777 said:


> I doubt Karate, or Jiu-jitsu, or Kempo, or TKD, or JKD is very effective against a gun or knife. And don't tell me about disarming techniques, that is fantasy.




Please let him live near me and attack a certain person I know with a knife... I could do with a laugh.   :boing1:   Ooh please please!!!!




Freestyler777 said:


> Martial Artists are by nature weak people who speculate on what works in a real fight, but never actually do it.


   Hmmm, he's obviously never met a real martial artist, or he's done a few weeks and given up in frustration.




Freestyler777 said:


> There are very few cases of anyone using martial arts to defend themselves, largely because martial arts are mythology.


  :lfao:    oK there's my laugh... happy now.



Freestyler said:


> If you don't realize that, I feel sorry for you. You go back to your fantasy kata, and i'll go back to speaking truth and kindness. Without philosophy, martial arts is a strange form of gymnastics.
> 
> Bye.


 
No truth and kindness has been demonstrated here, why do we need to prove our abilities if he can't??? 


How ROOOOD!


----------



## Blotan Hunka (Mar 14, 2007)

Not that Zen doesn't have practical application to the martial arts, the clarity and speed of perception and action it can provide can be beneficial. But IMO its up to the student to find that training, not expect a MA teacher to provide it.


----------



## Shaderon (Mar 14, 2007)

crushing said:


> Thank you. I didn't notice it was closed.
> 
> Also, regarding your pop quiz from an earlier post. I'd have to cheat to find the Korean terminology for 'inner spread block'. I assume it goes a little something like 'something something makki'.
> 
> After googling. . .Hecho makki? Isn't that Spanish for 'Made in Makki'?


 
Inner spread block... isn't  Hecyo "wedging block"... and inner is An or do you mean "Inward"? (Anuro)
So inner spread block (if a wedging block) would be An Palmok Hecyo Magki 
I can't find anything in my notes saying Spread block so I'll have to trust you guys on that one.


----------



## exile (Mar 14, 2007)

Shaderon said:


> Inner spread block... isn't  Hecyo "wedging block"... and inner is An or do you mean "Inward"? (Anuro)
> So inner spread block (if a wedging block) would be An Palmok Hecyo Magki
> I can't find anything in my notes saying Spread block so I'll have to trust you guys on that one.



That works for me... the `inner' bit is actually inside-to-outside, with the forearms moving away from each other. It's sometimes used to describe a particular move in the 7th Palgwe.


----------



## exile (Mar 14, 2007)

Shaderon said:


> [/SIZE][/FONT][/FONT]
> 
> OOh OOOh I always wanted to meet Gorillas!  Hiya you lot!!  :wavey:   OOh that means me too...  *grunt*
> 
> ...




Great post! Just have to wait till _you_ cyle off my current list...

This guy's posts on this thread remind me of a T-shirt I once saw on campus. On the front  it said, `Death to Extremists!', and on the back, `At any cost, Crush Fanaticism!!'.


----------



## crushing (Mar 14, 2007)

exile said:


> That works for me... the `inner' bit is actually inside-to-outside, with the forearms moving away from each other. It's sometimes used to describe a particular move in the 7th Palgwe.


 
Are you talking about the double middle block near the begining or the 'spreading' of the high X-block when facing south again at the top of the bar?

My teachers aren't real sticklers for Korean terminology.  It's something I'm starting to undertake more on my own.


----------



## exile (Mar 14, 2007)

crushing said:


> Are you talking about the double middle block near the begining or the 'spreading' of the high X-block when facing south again at the top of the bar?



The double middle block, with the forearms more or less vertical, the one right _before_ the X-block.



crushing said:


> My teachers aren't real sticklers for Korean terminology.  It's something I'm starting to undertake more on my own.



I'm in the same boat. And most of the storage space my poor brain came equipped with is already taken...


----------



## Bigshadow (Mar 14, 2007)

Blotan Hunka said:


> Not that Zen doesn't have practical application to the martial arts, the clarity and speed of perception and action it can provide can be beneficial. But IMO its up to the student to find that training, not expect a MA teacher to provide it.



Reminds me of a quote...




> _* The only Zen you find on the tops of mountains is the Zen you    bring up there.*_  --Robert M. Pirsig


----------



## Shaderon (Mar 14, 2007)

That's right, it's a inner wedging block then as we learn it.

Here's a handy site I sometimes use for revision...    I know we've kinda hijacked the thread but i don't suppose Freestyler will complain!! heehee

Shall we open a thread in the TKD section?


----------



## Lisa (Mar 14, 2007)

Lisa said:


> *MODERATOR NOTE:
> 
> Please keep the conversation polite and respectful.
> 
> ...



I am not sure if everyone saw this upthread so I am going to bring it to the attention of everyone again.

It is true that this member's account is closed so lets just move on and continue with polite and respectful conversation.  Please feel free to start another thread so that this thread can continue being about why Zen is not emphasized in most dojos.

Lisa Deneka
MT Assist. Admin.


----------



## exile (Mar 14, 2007)

Shaderon said:


> That's right, it's a inner wedging block then as we learn it.
> 
> Here's a handy site I sometimes use for revision...    I know we've kinda hijacked the thread but i don't suppose Freestyler will complain!! heehee
> 
> Shall we open a thread in the TKD section?



Not a bad idea at all, Shaderon. I actually think there _is_ a thread somewhere or other out there on Korean MA terminology... haven't been able to locate it yet, though. 

Meanwhile, I think that a consensus of sorts has emerged amongst those who've responded to this post: MAs in general don't teach Zen because many of them don't originate in places where Zen is a component of the culture, and even in places where it _is_ a component, the arts originating in those places are not dependent for their effective functioning&#8212;or maybe it's more accurate to say, practitioners are not dependent for their effective utilization of these arts&#8212;on Zen as a whole or particular tenets of Zen. As a result, instructors are not trained to deliver education in Zen as part of their skills in imparting the MAs in which they have expertise, and most would therefore be completely unable to present Zen competently, even if the clientele for their art wanted to know Zen. 

I don't know that there's anything more that needs saying on this topic... have I left anything out? 

So now, about those inner spread/wedging blocks... :wink1:


----------



## Touch Of Death (Mar 14, 2007)

Freestyler777 said:


> OK, it seems that only gorillas post on this website. I read all your replies, and it seems that not one of you realize that single, unarmed combat, which is wrestling, is not even practiced anymore on the street. I doubt Karate, or Jiu-jitsu, or Kempo, or TKD, or JKD is very effective against a gun or knife. And don't tell me about disarming techniques, that is fantasy. Martial Artists are by nature weak people who speculate on what works in a real fight, but never actually do it. Believe me, Mr. 280 Crackhead doesn't care if you know all the hot new techniques coming from Brazil, or the ancient techniques of Okinawan Karate, or even if you are a judo champion. There are very few cases of anyone using martial arts to defend themselves, largely because martial arts are mythology. If you don't realize that, I feel sorry for you. You go back to your fantasy kata, and i'll go back to speaking truth and kindness. Without philosophy, martial arts is a strange form of gymnastics.
> 
> Bye.


I think this is the most non-zen post I have ever read. However, replace the word Zen with the words christianity or Islam and you will find that he believes what he is saying and feels sorry for us. What I do see is his complete misunderstanding of the martial arts and its usefullness. I feel the zen is always there in a good school, but we don't need to become shintoists to bennefit from it, because the gist is universal.
sean


----------



## Kacey (Mar 14, 2007)

exile said:


> Not a bad idea at all, Shaderon. I actually think there _is_ a thread somewhere or other out there on Korean MA terminology... haven't been able to locate it yet, though.



Try searching "hangul" - which pulled threads here, here, here, here, here,  and here, among others.


----------



## exile (Mar 15, 2007)

Kacey said:


> Try searching "hangul" - which pulled threads here, here, here, here, here,  and here, among others.



Thanks, Kacey! This might be a good sticky to add to the KMA forum...


----------



## Ray (Mar 16, 2007)

I don't emphasize Zen in my "studio" for several reasons.  1) - there are several other fine schools of Buddhism besides Zen.   2) - I'm not Buddhist  3) - I don't emphasize my personal faith to my students, why would I emphasize something else.  4) - The study and practice of Zen have nothing to do with any aspect of my martial practice.


----------

