# Hapkido instructor claims that jump spinning kicks in TKD came from Hapkido



## Acronym (Dec 24, 2020)

There's a first for everything I guess. All historical account of Hapkido that I've read documents that above the waist kicks in Hapkido were lifted from TaeKwonDo (some say Taekkyon as well). Everything else is basically variants of those arts kicks.

This Hapkido instructor has a different historical reading.

Beck Martial Arts - Controversial Hapkido Frequently Asked Questions

"The specialty jumping spinning kicks of Hapkido proved very useful for demonstration and breaking purposes and got adopted into Taekwondo"

The source I find give 1961 around the time kicks to waist and above got adopted into most, if not all branches of Hapkido.

It's not entirely out of the question that TaeKwonDo had not yet influenced any martial art at that time but Tang Soo Do surely had, and Tang Soo Do probably had well established practices of spin kicks by 1961.. And Tang Soo Do was the precursor to TaeKwonDo.


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## Acronym (Dec 24, 2020)

And this colorful chap even ignroes Tang Soo Do!

What is it with muddy Korean history???

Strikes and kicks from Taekkyon? Taekkyon was a leg game in Korea, and had no hand techniques.


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## dvcochran (Dec 24, 2020)

Acronym said:


> There's a first for everything I guess. All historical account of Hapkido that I've read documents that above the waist kicks in Hapkido were lifted from TaeKwonDo (some say Taekkyon as well). Everything else is basically variants of those arts kicks.
> 
> This Hapkido instructor has a different historical reading.
> 
> ...



Well, it you consider just the generally accepted year that each style was created/formalized, TKD is about 20 years older. This and the various differences in the two styles makes this idea on the kick originating from Hap very doubtful for me.

It is an interesting article however. This guy has taken the time to compare and contrast just about every major style against Hapkido. Something I have never seen before. Is it 100% accurate? Who knows? When researching history, especially in the MA's, it is easy to find what we Want to find and ignore the rest. 
A fickle thing history is. 

I does sound like a pretty school with Arnis in the mix. Similar to what we do. 
But man oh man is that ever one bland website.


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## Acronym (Dec 24, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Well, it you consider just the generally accepted year that each style was created/formalized, TKD is about 20 years older. This and the various differences in the two styles makes this idea on the kick originating from Hap very doubtful for me.
> 
> It is an interesting article however. This guy has taken the time to compare and contrast just about every major style against Hapkido. Something I have never seen before. Is it 100% accurate? Who knows? When researching history, especially in the MA's, it is easy to find what we Want to find and ignore the rest.
> A fickle thing history is.
> ...



I don't understand how Hapkido is supposed to have influenced any aerial kicking when it' well known that it was not a kicking art originally. 

It's uncontroversial that Ji han jae of Bruce Lee fame added the more elaborate kicks and I'm quite certain he didn't invent them.


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## paitingman (Dec 24, 2020)

I was taught "traditional" Hapkido used mainly low kicks and no high kicks.


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## Acronym (Dec 24, 2020)

paitingman said:


> I was taught "traditional" Hapkido used mainly low kicks and no high kicks.



One branch only, and probably the smallest of the bunch.

There are also branches that focuses primarily on striking.


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## Acronym (Dec 24, 2020)

It should also be noted that the style of Hapkido with no high kicks was not called Hapkido. The art named Hapkido has always had high kicks, the precursor did not.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 24, 2020)

Acronym said:


> It should also be noted that the style of Hapkido with no high kicks was not called Hapkido. The art named Hapkido has always had high kicks, the precursor did not.


What was it called?


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## dvcochran (Dec 24, 2020)

paitingman said:


> I was taught "traditional" Hapkido used mainly low kicks and no high kicks.


Agree. I am hoping @skribs will chime in on this.


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## Acronym (Dec 24, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> What was it called?



The founder referred to it as Yawara.

"Initially, Choi made no attempt to mask the fact that he trained in the Japanese style Daito-Ryu Aikijujutsu (often pronounced Dae Dong Ryu Yu Sool or Dae Dong Ryu Yawara in Korean), referring to his style simply as Yawara. *The name Hapkido appeared around 1958, when Ji Han Jae, along with some of Choi’s other students, incorporated the kicking techniques of Korean Taekkyon and created a unified syllabus of training material and techniques.

Historical Lineage of Hapkido*


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 24, 2020)

Acronym said:


> The founder referred to it as Yawara.
> 
> "Initially, Choi made no attempt to mask the fact that he trained in the Japanese style Daito-Ryu Aikijujutsu (often pronounced Dae Dong Ryu Yu Sool or Dae Dong Ryu Yawara in Korean), referring to his style simply as Yawara. *The name Hapkido appeared around 1958, when Ji Han Jae, along with some of Choi’s other students, incorporated the kicking techniques of Korean Taekkyon and created a unified syllabus of training material and techniques.
> 
> Historical Lineage of Hapkido*


So, you're saying that before it was Hapkido, Hapkido didn't include the kicks not originally in Hapkido.


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## Acronym (Dec 25, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> So, you're saying that before it was Hapkido, Hapkido didn't include the kicks not originally in Hapkido.



If they weren't originally in the art, then they obviously wouldn't be included. Just like Bob wouldn't be part of Anna before she was impregnated with him.

Amazingly, there is still an ultra old-school branch calling itself Hapkido that rejected the modern kicking additions, lacking both side and roundhouse kick.

I find it ironic that they consider themselves Hapkido traditionalists when the first use of the integrated system Hapkido did in fact have all the bells and whistles, and what they are training is pre Hapkido, not traditional...


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## Acronym (Dec 25, 2020)

The kicking influence is clearly Korean going by the hips and overall body mechanics. It's more of a full swing in Hapkido however with less control and more torque. TKDs default spins are more of a half spin.

There's also as I mentioned in the Hapkido forum running wheel kicks, which is very Kung Fu-ish. TKD does not formally train such kicks. You rarely run into aerial wheel kicks in TaeKwonDo. It's something that tends to be preserved to the demo teams.

The roundhouse and side kicks are exactly the same in both arts.

As to the circular principle of Kung Fu and Hapkido, the Karate arts tend to consider straight paths the most efficient trajectories and moved away from emphasis on circularity which is interesting.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 25, 2020)

Acronym said:


> If they weren't originally in the art, then they obviously wouldn't be included. Just like Bob wouldn't be part of Anna before she was impregnated with him.
> 
> Amazingly, there is still an ultra old-school branch calling itself Hapkido that rejected the modern kicking additions, lacking both side and roundhouse kick.
> 
> I find it ironic that they consider themselves Hapkido traditionalists when the first use of the integrated system Hapkido did in fact have all the bells and whistles, and what they are training is pre Hapkido, not traditional...


You’re very invested in the name, which isn’t the same thing as the system. Systems evolve, and it’s really odd for someone with apparently no experience in an art to be so adamant about what is and is not that system.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Dec 25, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> You’re very invested in the name, which isn’t the same thing as the system. Systems evolve, and it’s really odd for someone with apparently no experience in an art to be so adamant about what is and is not that system.


   Just tra
I can see there being some national pride behind it, thus deviations of that and viewed disrespect could be a issue.    Just Transpose something you care about equally as much.  Or in a similar way.  

im getting flashbacks to TKD dating back to ancient Korea and was devoloped to kick cavalrymen off their horses.  (that one will never not make be giggle)


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## Acronym (Dec 25, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> You’re very invested in the name, which isn’t the same thing as the system. Systems evolve, and it’s really odd for someone with apparently no experience in an art to be so adamant about what is and is not that system.



I quoted it.


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## Acronym (Dec 25, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> You’re very invested in the name, which isn’t the same thing as the system. Systems evolve, and it’s really odd for someone with apparently no experience in an art to be so adamant about what is and is not that system.



Hapkido is represented int the TaeKwonDo Federation in my country. That's how closely tied they are. It's just like Jiujitsu as a term for both Judo and BJJ. Same fundamentals, different orientation, sometimes different methodology (way of delivering the same or very similar technique).

The grappling of Hapkido is in TaeKwonDo(how much is dependent on lineage and emphasis of the instructor) and the same goes for the kicks.

There are some very sloppy instructors who do their own joint manipulation in classes without much tought into it, but that's true of both arts. And like I said, some Hapkido schools focus on striking as much as TKD does


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## Acronym (Dec 25, 2020)

The comment below (taken from Quora) was very interesting for those thinking there is a clear divide between TaeKwonDo and Hapkido

David Fish
·
August 22, 2016

A comment on the video said: I actually trained under this Hapkido guy when this was originally filmed. What I can say with honesty is that he was an instructor but had no real fight experience and he didn't train very hard. When I was learning from him, *his focus was almost entirely on strikes with very little grappling/joint lock sparring.
*
End of quote. How is small joint manipulation and joint lock (of which there is a plethora in Hapkido) relevant against a wrestling tackle? That wouldn't help him one bit.

The only thing that would help him would be to learn submission grappling.

"Grab my wrist bro" will not show up against someone who knows that he is doing. He won't be grabbing the wrist. That's so incredibly stupid, yet the scenario drilled in Hapkido, TaeKwondo,  Aikido, etc.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 25, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I quoted it.


Quoted what?


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 25, 2020)

Acronym said:


> The comment below (taken from Quora) was very interesting for those thinking there is a clear divide between TaeKwonDo and Hapkido
> 
> David Fish
> ·
> ...


That’s a bad misunderstanding of the principles I assume made it to Hapkido from Daito-Ryu.


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## Acronym (Dec 25, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> That’s a bad misunderstanding of the principles I assume made it to Hapkido from Daito-Ryu.



But small joint manipulations,wrist locks,etc don't work against brazilian jiujitsu. He can spend an eternity on it and it wouldn't matter.

The striking can work of course.


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## Acronym (Dec 25, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Quoted what?



A reference to my reply to you about what Hapkido was called prior to the elaborate kicks


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 25, 2020)

This almost reminds me of the Korean guy a few years ago that hated everything about Japanese Martial arts.

I'm trying to figure how this matters -> "All historical account of Hapkido that I've read documents that above the waist kicks in Hapkido were lifted from TaeKwonDo"

If a person is good at kicking then they would eventually try to kick your head off regardless of the system.  If it's an open target that someone might want to go for then why not try to kick a higher target.

I look at this in a similar light as my own training.  I don't train high kicks in my training, but it doesn't mean I won't kick someone in the head if the opportunity presents itself.

Boxers don't train weapons, but that's not going to stop a boxer from taking a knife and trying to stab someone if the opportunity and danger makes that the next best option.

I think when people get into comments like this, it's because they are thinking about the sport or martial arts instead of martial arts being a fighting system.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 25, 2020)

Acronym said:


> But small joint manipulations,wrist locks,etc don't work against brazilian jiujitsu. He can spend an eternity on it and it wouldn't matter.
> 
> The striking can work of course.


That's still missing the point.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 25, 2020)

Acronym said:


> A reference to my reply to you about what Hapkido was called prior to the elaborate kicks


And, as I said, that's just a name. Name is not the same as the system, so changing the name isn't changing the system.


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## Acronym (Dec 25, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> And, as I said, that's just a name. Name is not the same as the system, so changing the name isn't changing the system.



Adding a lot of flashy kicks is changing the system.


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## Acronym (Dec 25, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> That's still missing the point.



What was your point with regards to that post?


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 25, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Adding a lot of flashy kicks is changing the system.


Flashy kicks are not a part of functional martial arts.  Kicks that are too high open you up for attacks to your standing leg, groin, or sweep.  Flashy kicks are not the norm for function because they come with a big risk that is usually not worth the success of landing it.

Flashy kicks are things that people usually do when they are at a higher fighting skill level than his opponent.  Sort of like showboating in boxing. You rarely see fighter do flashy kicks when the fighting skills are almost equal to or lower than their opponent.  You can look up TKD vs whoever and what you'll see is all of the flashy stuff gets shutdown.

The only time I've seen anyone get away with flashy techniques on a consistent basis is when it's Style vs Style.    For example, TKD kicks are extremely flashy when it's TKD vs TKD.  Boxing is extremely flashy when it's Boxing vs Boxing.  Kung fu is really flashy when it's Kung Fu Style A vs Kung Fu Style A. When you have system A vs System B, those flashy techniques are going to be put on lock down.

I'm even guilty of this.  Jow Ga vs Jow Ga.  yeah I can be fancy and pull it off.  But me vs anything else you'll see how quickly I throw away the fancy stuff.  I'll still throw the same techniques, but I won't be fancy with it.



Acronym said:


> But small joint manipulations,wrist locks,etc don't work against brazilian jiujitsu.


Small joint manipulations, wrist locks, etc.  do work against every one.  Here's why.  Joint manipulations, wrist locks, are used to destroy the joint.  What we often see in Hollywood is not the realistic application of a joint lock.

Here are some videos of wristlocks that you say don't work.  Anyone who isn't double jointed in the wrist or who doesn't have flexible wrist will tell you that Wristlocks work.










For me personally I rather have a larger joint locked.  Smaller joints can give away quickly before you know it. I always like how BJJ people look shock after experiencing a good wrist lock.  Kung Fu people just grin and say. "Told you."  From my experience, the people who I had an easy time doing a wrist lock on where those who didn't realize what I was trying to do until it was too late.  Just like the BJJ guys just let their hand sit there without response.  Yeah that's a no no.  You always have to be aware of how people are grabbing your hand or positioning your hand.  The sooner you realize that the better. Wait too long and you'll fell the pain.  It's real


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## Acronym (Dec 26, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> Flashy kicks are not a part of functional martial arts.  Kicks that are too high open you up for attacks to your standing leg, groin, or sweep.  Flashy kicks are not the norm for function because they come with a big risk that is usually not worth the success of landing it.
> 
> Flashy kicks are things that people usually do when they are at a higher fighting skill level than his opponent.  Sort of like showboating in boxing. You rarely see fighter do flashy kicks when the fighting skills are almost equal to or lower than their opponent.  You can look up TKD vs whoever and what you'll see is all of the flashy stuff gets shutdown.
> 
> ...



Those are sport competitions between submission grapplers who are taught live resistance training. If you don't know BJJ you will get subbed in 15 seconds.


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## Acronym (Dec 26, 2020)

You will also note that there is no wrestling takedown in those clips, like the freestyle fighting clip I posted, which gives you no time to apply a joint lock standing, and you won't have time on your back either if all you did is TMA.


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## Acronym (Dec 26, 2020)

Subbed on the ground in seconds, just like the previous guy!


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## Acronym (Dec 26, 2020)

Show me a Hapkido expert subbing a judoka or bjj guy with a wrist lock and I will eat my shoe.


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## Earl Weiss (Dec 26, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> Kicks that are too high open you up for attacks to your standing leg, groin, or sweep.




So  the Pro MMA Fights that ended with a kick to the head   really didn't work?


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## Acronym (Dec 26, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> So  the Pro MMA Fights that ended with a kick to the head   really didn't work?



It does happen but why would you advocate a jumping technique over a grounded one? It doesn't add any power jumping, if anything it it probably detracts power, slows you down, and telegraphs the technique unneccesarily.


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## Acronym (Dec 26, 2020)

Here's a flying side kick in the UFC right on the button, and it didn't even stun him. All that waste of energy to something that didn't even hurt him.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 26, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Adding a lot of flashy kicks is changing the system.


That's not what I was talking about. You made a point that it wasn't Hapkido before that because they didn't call it Hapkido. It was the same system, that later evolved to include those kicks.

As for "flashy", the Hapkido places I saw (had friends who trained in it some years ago) didn't do any flashy kicks. They did kick to the head, but just pretty standard TKD-type kicks - no aerials, and very little with spinning/turning kicks.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 26, 2020)

Acronym said:


> What was your point with regards to that post?


That what you posted reflected a lack of understanding of the principles behind Hapkido.


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## Acronym (Dec 26, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> .
> 
> As for "flashy", the Hapkido places I saw (had friends who trained in it some years ago) didn't do any flashy kicks. They did kick to the head, but just pretty standard TKD-type kicks - no aerials, and very little with spinning/turning kicks.



Could it be that you didn't see all of their content? 

The Koreans practise spin kicks all the time


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 26, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Those are sport competitions between submission grapplers who are taught live resistance training. If you don't know BJJ you will get subbed in 15 seconds.


Not really true if you have some other reasonable background in grappling, unless you're comparing an elite BJJ fighter vs average from other arts. I'd give the edge on the ground to BJJ against most other systems, but it's not as lopsided as you claim here if the other system has sound principles and training.

But that's also shifting from your prior claim that small joint manipulations don't work against BJJ.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 26, 2020)

Acronym said:


> You will also note that there is no wrestling takedown in those clips, like the freestyle fighting clip I posted, which gives you no time to apply a joint lock standing, and you won't have time on your back either if all you did is TMA.


What is it you think TMA doesn't do that BJJ does? And how do you define "TMA" (the term is inherently vague)?


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 26, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Show me a Hapkido expert subbing a judoka or bjj guy with a wrist lock and I will eat my shoe.


Why are you so invested in this?


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## Acronym (Dec 26, 2020)

[,


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 26, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Could it be that you didn't see all of their content?
> 
> The Koreans practise spin kicks all the time


Not sure what you're trying to prove.


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## Acronym (Dec 26, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> What is it you think TMA doesn't do that BJJ does? And how do you define "TMA" (the term is inherently vague)?



I didn't say TMA, I said Hapkido. There is no top game, guardplay, sweeps from a guard, etc. NO rolling around whatsoever

Japanese ju jutsu has some of it and that's a TMA in my book.


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## Acronym (Dec 26, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Not sure what you're trying to prove.



You made the claim that the Hapkido schools you saw  rarely did spin kicks. I just posted koreans spending a hefty amount of time devoted to just that. Are you following the conversation?


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 26, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I didn't say TMA, I said Hapkido. There is no top game, guardplay, sweeps from a guard, etc. NO rolling around whatsoever
> 
> Japanese ju jutsu has some of it and that's a TMA in my book.


In the post I quoted, you actually said TMA. Maybe read the quoted post before replying.

As for the Hapkido ground game, I've found it to be pretty variable. Some schools seem to have a reasonable grip on it, while others are pretty bad.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 26, 2020)

Acronym said:


> You made the claim that the Hapkido schools you saw  rarely did spin kicks. I just posted koreans spending a hefty amount of time devoted to just that. Are you following the conversation?


So, some schools at least in Korea do a lot of spin kicks. You started this thread with something about the origin of jump-spin kicks. Then you got into small joint manipulation. Then you added in some stuff about ground game. What are you trying to prove?


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## Acronym (Dec 26, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> So, some schools at least in Korea do a lot of spin kicks.



What are you talking about? Every notable Hapkido expert in the 70s was a spin kicker.

Whang in Sikh





Ji han Jae in Hane of death etc.


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## Acronym (Dec 26, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> As for the Hapkido ground game, I've found it to be pretty variable. Some schools seem to have a reasonable grip on it, while others are pretty bad.



Define reasonable grip. If they don't know the fundamentals of submission grappling on the ground (top position, guard, side control, sweeps) they don't stand a chance against anyone passed beginner in BJJ or Judo for that matter


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## Acronym (Dec 26, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> . You started this thread with something about the origin of jump-spin kicks. Then you got into small joint manipulation. Then you added in some stuff about ground game. What are you trying to prove?



Because it related to your objection that Hapkido and Taekwondo are differential arts. I quoted a student of an instructor who barely did any joint manipulation and wrist locks, yet trained in a Hapkido school.

What I then did was simply add to his statement that wrist locks are irrelevant on somebody doing a tackle on you, because there is no time to perform it.

The clip posted in response to that was grip fighting without takedowns.


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## Acronym (Dec 26, 2020)

Here's more spin kicks from the heartland of the art


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## Acronym (Dec 26, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> In the post I quoted, you actually said TMA.



I simply forgot about Japanese Ju Jutsu


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 26, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Those are sport competitions between submission grapplers who are taught live resistance training. If you don't know BJJ you will get subbed in 15 seconds.


The problem isn't not knowing BJJ.  The guy literally won a BJJ match without doing any BJJ. All he used was a wrist lock. match over.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 26, 2020)

Acronym said:


> You will also note that there is no wrestling takedown in those clips, like the freestyle fighting clip I posted, which gives you no time to apply a joint lock standing, and you won't have time on your back either if all you did is TMA.


Wrist lock applied while standing


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 26, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Show me a Hapkido expert subbing a judoka or bjj guy with a wrist lock and I will eat my shoe.


Wrist locks are wrist locks.  It doesn't matter which system is doing it.  The principles of locking the wrist will still be the same.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 26, 2020)

Acronym said:


> You made the claim that the Hapkido schools you saw  rarely did spin kicks. I just posted koreans spending a hefty amount of time devoted to just that. Are you following the conversation?


The Hapkido schools that I've been to in the US. don't do kicks like that.  You'll see kicks like that in TKD schools here, but not in Hapkido schools here.  What you see in regards to Hapkido is probably based on what's popular there.  The thing that I often see done in Hapkido schools here is grappling and throws.



Acronym said:


> Because it related to your objection that Hapkido and Taekwondo are differential arts. I quoted a student of an instructor who barely did any joint manipulation and wrist locks, yet trained in a Hapkido school.


All Hapkido schools aren't the same.


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## Acronym (Dec 26, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> Wrist locks are wrist locks.  It doesn't matter which system is doing it.  The principles of locking the wrist will still be the same.



You can't apply them without controlling the opponent first with wrestling, which is impossible for a Hapkido expert since he doesn't do wrestling in his art.


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## Acronym (Dec 26, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> The Hapkido schools that I've been to in the US. don't do kicks like that.  You'll see kicks like that in TKD schools here, but not in Hapkido schools here.  What you see in regards to Hapkido is probably based on what's popular there.  The thing that I often see done in Hapkido schools here is grappling and throws.
> 
> All Hapkido schools aren't the same.



Beck Martial Arts - Controversial Hapkido Frequently Asked Questions
*What's the difference between Sin Moo Hapkido and other kinds of Hapkido?*

_Not much. There is a lot of variance throughout Hapkido, with a wide spread of the amounts of focus on particular types of techniques. But to be called Hapkido it should have some defenses versus all ranges and all types of attacks; and it should include kicks, strikes, throws, joint locks, and pressure points. The percentage of time spent on any particular types of techniques varies much more with the particular instructor than with a particular HKD organization or kwan. Sin Moo Hapkido has essentially the same techniques as other kinds of Hapkido._


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## Acronym (Dec 26, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> All Hapkido schools aren't the same.



Nor are TKD schools. That doesn't negate the fact that at their core, the content is the same or virtually the same, just intermixed differently


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## Acronym (Dec 26, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> The Hapkido schools that I've been to in the US. don't do kicks like that.  You'll see kicks like that in TKD schools here, but not in Hapkido schools here.  What you see in regards to Hapkido is probably based on what's popular there.  The thing that I often see done in Hapkido schools here is grappling and throws.
> .



I don't believe your anecdote and regardless, the US is hardly representative of a KOREAN martial art. The US is infamous for watering down and destroying martial arts and creating Mcdojos


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 26, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> So the Pro MMA Fights that ended with a kick to the head really didn't work?


it doesn't matter if it works, it still leaves the groin and leg open to attack.  The mechanics and realities will still be the same.  

Kick too high and you'll expose your standing leg.  Here I'm sweeping the leg, but I could have easily done a low spinning back kick or high sweep to his knee.  Had I been facing forward, I could done a front kick the standing knee or thigh or grown,  Had I been in a side stance I could have done a low side kick to the thigh, knee or shin of the standing  leg.  





If MMA fighters don't know how to exploit the high kick then you won't see them exploiting the high kick.


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## Acronym (Dec 26, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> it doesn't matter if it works, it still leaves the groin and leg open to attack.  The mechanics and realities will still be the same.
> 
> Kick too high and you'll expose your standing leg.  Here I'm sweeping the leg, but I could have easily done a low spinning back kick or high sweep to his knee.  Had I been facing forward, I could done a front kick the standing knee or thigh or grown,  Had I been in a side stance I could have done a low side kick to the thigh, knee or shin of the standing  leg.
> View attachment 23424
> ...



Why don't you do MMA and make a lot of money by exploiting these things?


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 26, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I don't believe your anecdote and regardless, the US is hardly representative of a KOREAN martial art. The US is infamous for watering down and destroying martial arts and creating Mcdojos


if the sign on the door say they train Hapkido then that's they train, regardless of if it meets your standards or definition of what Hapkido is.

As far as Representing a Korean Martial Art, I'm pretty sure some of the schools would disagree with you on that one.  For me personally , I'm not a fan of Hapkido nor TKD.  I'm just telling you the what I see here in Hapkido schools here, since you seem to be so hung up on them.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 26, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Nor are TKD schools. That doesn't negate the fact that at their core, the content is the same or virtually the same, just intermixed differently


At their core there's a few Hapkido schools that I've been too that don't do the training and fancy kicks that you claim they do.  That's what Gerry and I are trying to tell you. 

You are taking what you see in the school where you live and on video and assuming that is all of Hapkido


----------



## Acronym (Dec 26, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> At their core there's a few Hapkido schools that I've been too that don't do the training and fancy kicks that you claim they do.  That's what Gerry and I are trying to tell you.
> 
> You are taking what you see in the school where you live and on video and assuming that is all of Hapkido



Why should I care what they do in the home of Mcdojos and fake lineages, that is the US? Around every corner is a Karate school, often with made up patterns by the instructor. It's the same for TaeKwonDo.


----------



## Acronym (Dec 26, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> if the sign on the door say they train Hapkido then that's they train, regardless of if it meets your standards or definition of what Hapkido is.
> .



Not in the US it isn't. They have a bunch of fake martial arts school with NO lineage, or a fake one.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 26, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Why don't you do MMA and make a lot of money by exploiting these things?


And here we go.  The ole "Why don't you do MMA and make a lot of money " argument.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 26, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Why should I care what they do in the home of Mcdojos and fake lineages, that is the US? Around every corner is a Karate school, often with made up patterns by the instructor. It's the same for TaeKwonDo.


No one said you had to care.  Those Hapkido schools in the US still exist regardless of how little you care.  They don't need your permission to exist.


----------



## Acronym (Dec 26, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> And here we go.  The ole "Why don't you do MMA and make a lot of money " argument.



Yes. Why say no to make easy money? Just admit that you would get taken down and choked out in 15 seconds. 

Feel free to disprove that and challenge a brown belt in judo or BJJ and post it here.


----------



## Acronym (Dec 26, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> No one said you had to care.  Those Hapkido schools in the US still exist regardless of how little you care.  They don't need your permission to exist.



The point is that unlike most other countries, capitalist US makes up their own organizations rather than stick to the ones that the art evolved in.


----------



## Acronym (Dec 26, 2020)

This guy is in better shape than you and he did not last long with his Kung Fu.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 26, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Yes. Why say no to make easy money? Just admit that you would get taken down and choked out in 15 seconds.
> 
> Feel free to disprove that and challenge a brown belt in judo or BJJ and post it here.


 The interesting thing about your comments is that you haven't denied the validity of what I said about about the risk of kicking too high.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 26, 2020)

Acronym said:


> The point is that unlike most other countries, capitalist US makes up their own organizations rather than stick to the ones that the art evolved in.


I don't have anything to do with how they run their schools.    It's clear  you are hung up on the wrong things


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 26, 2020)

Acronym said:


> This guy is in better shape than you and he did not last long with his Kung Fu.


And none of this has anything to do with my statement about high kicks.


----------



## Acronym (Dec 26, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> The interesting thing about your comments is that you haven't denied the validity of what I said about about the risk of kicking too high.



Leg grabs and sweeps are legal in Muay Thai and it didn't kill high kicks.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 26, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Leg grabs and sweeps are legal in Muay Thai and it didn't kill high kicks.


Muay Thai is known for the powerful kicks to the legs, knees, and elbows.  What they don't have fame to are awesome head kicks.  Do they have head kicks that knock people out.  Of course, but that goes back to what I was saying.  If the head is open then why not go for it.  It also goes back to what I've said before about my own training.   I don't train to do high kicks to the head, but I'm flexible enough to kick the head.   If I see that I can kick the head then I'm going for it., because it's an opportunity and not "the plan."

Pick any Muay thai fight and you'll see that there are significantly more kicks to the legs, abdomen, and ribs than there are kicks to the head.

Back sweeps /spin sweeps are not legal in Muay Thai.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 26, 2020)

Here's a clip so you can see how the high kicks are sometimes exploited in Muay Thai.  You'll also see some mid level kicks being exploited too.  There's not much that be done in terms of maintaining balance when you are standing on one leg.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Why should I care what they do in the home of Mcdojos and fake lineages, that is the US? Around every corner is a Karate school, often with made up patterns by the instructor. It's the same for TaeKwonDo.


Have you actually been to the US and trained here to make that judgment? This is not my experience. And keep in mind that the US has about 8 distinct regions depending on who you ask(PNW, PSW, Rocky Mountains, Midwest, Southeast, New England, Hawaii, and, Alaska) with their own separate cultures, that are bound to have different martial cultures as well. And the US as a county makes up roughly the same land mass and population of Europe, as a comparison for different focuses. 

Unless you've trained in each of the different regions, you can't really make an argument that it's full of mcdojos and the schools there aren't representative of the style. At least not anymore than I can make that argument about england, never having trained there, even if I bulgaria and found that to be true.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> The point is that unlike most other countries, capitalist US makes up their own organizations rather than stick to the ones that the art evolved in.


So is your argument that the US is too capitalist for martial arts? As opposed to other european countries which are more capitalistic, or south korea, which is where hapkido/tkd came from but is only slightly less capitalistic than the US? Country Rankings: World & Global Economy Rankings on Economic Freedom


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> What are you talking about? Every notable Hapkido expert in the 70s was a spin kicker.
> 
> Whang in Sikh
> 
> ...


Which isn't actually contradictory to anything I said.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Define reasonable grip. If they don't know the fundamentals of submission grappling on the ground (top position, guard, side control, sweeps) they don't stand a chance against anyone passed beginner in BJJ or Judo for that matter


The fundamentals pretty much define "reasonable grip".


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Because it related to your objection that Hapkido and Taekwondo are differential arts. I quoted a student of an instructor who barely did any joint manipulation and wrist locks, yet trained in a Hapkido school.
> 
> What I then did was simply add to his statement that wrist locks are irrelevant on somebody doing a tackle on you, because there is no time to perform it.
> 
> The clip posted in response to that was grip fighting without takedowns.


So, again, what are you trying to prove?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I simply forgot about Japanese Ju Jutsu


So, you did say "TMA", but meant "all TMA except Japanese Ju Jutsu"?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> You can't apply them without controlling the opponent first with wrestling, which is impossible for a Hapkido expert since he doesn't do wrestling in his art.


Define "wreslting", then? Because if I'd written that statement, it would be something like, "You can't apply them without controlling the opponent first by breaking down his structure and limiting his movement."


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Beck Martial Arts - Controversial Hapkido Frequently Asked Questions
> *What's the difference between Sin Moo Hapkido and other kinds of Hapkido?*
> 
> _Not much. There is a lot of variance throughout Hapkido, with a wide spread of the amounts of focus on particular types of techniques. But to be called Hapkido it should have some defenses versus all ranges and all types of attacks; and it should include kicks, strikes, throws, joint locks, and pressure points. The percentage of time spent on any particular types of techniques varies much more with the particular instructor than with a particular HKD organization or kwan. Sin Moo Hapkido has essentially the same techniques as other kinds of Hapkido._


And the point of that post?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Nor are TKD schools. That doesn't negate the fact that at their core, the content is the same or virtually the same, just intermixed differently


You're quite certain of that from your extensive visits to many HKD and TKD schools across the world?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I don't believe your anecdote and regardless, the US is hardly representative of a KOREAN martial art. The US is infamous for watering down and destroying martial arts and creating Mcdojos


You are the one saying it's the same everywhere.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Why should I care what they do in the home of Mcdojos and fake lineages, that is the US? Around every corner is a Karate school, often with made up patterns by the instructor. It's the same for TaeKwonDo.


You've never been to a US Karate school, have you?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 27, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> The interesting thing about your comments is that you haven't denied the validity of what I said about about the risk of kicking too high.


Just resorted to insults to deflect.


----------



## Earl Weiss (Dec 27, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> it doesn't matter if it works, it still leaves the groin and leg open to attack.  The mechanics and realities will still be the same.
> 
> .


Most anything leaves something open for something.   That doesn't mean the technique doesn't work.


----------



## Earl Weiss (Dec 27, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> if the sign on the door say they train Hapkido then that's they train, regardless of if it meets your standards or definition of what Hapkido is.
> 
> .


Sorry but I disagree.   - it may mean what they train and it may not. Seen plenty of storefront schools list 12 things on their sign and maybe they do 3 of them.


----------



## Earl Weiss (Dec 27, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> Muay I don't train to do high kicks to the head, but I'm flexible enough to kick the head.   If I see that I can kick the head then I'm going for it., because it's an opportunity and not "the plan."
> .


So, this must mean your high kicks don't work statement was meant to me qualified in some sense. Or am I missing something?


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (Dec 27, 2020)

Why does it always come back to semantics with martial arts?   There is a limit to how much you can change something before its not it anymore.  Like if you change all the major tenents in a ideology, can you really still call it the same name?    I say no, you should change the name to reflect the fact you arent affliated at all with it besides a name.   (its just dis honest at best fradulent at worse)


I have seen several place sclaim they do bartistu, they dont do it.  They just do cane choregraphy, thats not bartitsu.   that is blatantly dishonest or fradualent intending to get people in who want to learn bartitsu.    That always annoys me, and i wish more people would militantly object to it and not fund the places that do it.  (actually change my several to a couple, seen more bartitsu that does legitimately do it than not using the name)


----------



## Acronym (Dec 27, 2020)

I noticed a pattern on this forum that people who can't do technique X are the ones who reject it.

I guess that's what we call ego?


----------



## Acronym (Dec 27, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> You're quite certain of that from your extensive visits to many HKD and TKD schools across the world?



Yes I am certain of that since I am well read on the subject and I grew up with Hapkido. I don't need to visit schools in order to qualify that statement.

I can't speak for the emphasis however, but your claim that spin kicks are rare in the US is very questionable.

This is from a random student who trained under a 9th Dan:

"We didn't do much striking practice in HKD proper *aside from High/Low wheel kicks"*

So spin kicks do play a large part in Hapkido as I stated.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 27, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> Sorry but I disagree.   - it may mean what they train and it may not. Seen plenty of storefront schools list 12 things on their sign and maybe they do 3 of them.


I'm not talking about those schools who lie about what they train.  I'm talking about the schools who are honest about their training.

If the conversation shifts to schools who lie about what they train then I'll shift to there school.  But right now we focusing on schools who that actually train Hapkido, because it's those schools who one would have to visit or train in, in order to know "what Hapkido schools do".

Going to a school that lies about training Hapkido won't help with understanding "How Hapkido Trains"


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 27, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> So, this must mean your high kicks don't work statement was meant to me qualified in some sense. Or am I missing something?


I don't remember ever saying that high kicks don't work.  I think someone's responded to my comment in a way that made it seem like I was saying it.   Here are the things I actually said in this thread about high kicks.  Nothing about what I posted below is inaccurate.

"*Kick too high and you'll expose your standing leg*."   post #61

"*I don't train high kicks in my training, but it doesn't mean I won't kick someone in the head if the opportunity presents itself*."  Post# 23

"*Kicks that are too high open you up for attacks to your standing leg, groin, or sweep.*" #28

"*I don't train to do high kicks to the head, but I'm flexible enough to kick the head. If I see that I can kick the head then I'm going for it., because it's an opportunity and not "the plan."* #76


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I noticed a pattern on this forum that people who can't do technique X are the ones who reject it.
> 
> I guess that's what we call ego?


The only pattern in this forum is that most of us are blunt.  And that certain questions and behaviors tend to pop up from time to time, that remind of when someone has brought up the same assumption or reacted the same way in the past.

From time to time we see things like that repeat.  

As far as people who can't do techniques X are the ones who reject it.  I would definitely say that's not the case here. There is often a lot of discussion of things that most of us can't do, and it's not rejected.  Kung Fu Wang is good for tossing things like that into the discussion and at the most people may not first understand, but then he'll post additional information that allows us to better understand what we are looking at.  I don't see people just rejecting him all the time.

There are a few of us who want proof by video fighting a professional MMA fighters, but that's far and few in between.  The other pattern that I've seen is that people are quick to jump on nonsense posts.  Anything they think is nonsense they will respond to in a blunt manner, so I don't the responses that you are getting are due to someone not being able to do it.,  I think it's not as easy to get away with generalities on this site.


----------



## Acronym (Dec 27, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> The only pattern in this forum is that most of us are blunt.  And that certain questions and behaviors tend to pop up from time to time, that remind of when someone has brought up the same assumption or reacted the same way in the past.
> 
> From time to time we see things like that repeat.
> 
> ...



Can you explain to me how someone who isn't even capable of executing head kicks has any say on the validity of them?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 27, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> Sorry but I disagree.   - it may mean what they train and it may not. Seen plenty of storefront schools list 12 things on their sign and maybe they do 3 of them.


Agree. My first NGA instructor had Aikido, Judo, Karate and something else on the door. He taught one of those (though he held rank in at least two of the others and taught some principles from them).


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Can you explain to me how someone who isn't even capable of executing head kicks has any say on the validity of them?


I don't know anyone personally in here who at one point of their life couldn't kick to the head.  For me I used to train karate so for many years high kicks were a thing to strive for.  It wasn't until I took Kung Fu, that my perspective changed on that.  My first kung fu class was in my early 20's and that's when I started learning how to exploit high kicks.  It wasn't until my late 20's that I really started to restrict high kicks.  I would try to maintain the flexibility but that's about it.

A lot of people here have taken other martial arts as well.  Some of us are at an age where the flexibility isn't what it used to be.  So they may not be able to kick high now, but have had experience in doing so.  

Others may have learned through example or through their teaching about the risk of kicking too high.  Others may have learned through watching fights with people kicking high.  

I've seen enough TKD fights to expect that if they are kicking high that one of them will fall while trying to kick. I did a search on TKD fights.  This was the second video that I picked.





This is the fourth video





So even if a person has never kicked high before, one can analyze videos of high kicks and arrive to a theory about the risks one opens themselves up to when kicking high.

If you like kick high, then kick away until your happy.  No one is saying to hate kicking high.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 27, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> So, this must mean your high kicks don't work statement was meant to me qualified in some sense. Or am I missing something?


I don't think he ever said they don't work - just that they have problems.


----------



## Acronym (Dec 27, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> I don't know anyone personally in here who at one point of their life couldn't kick to the head.  For me I used to train karate so for many years high kicks were a thing to strive for.  It wasn't until I took Kung Fu, that my perspective changed on that.  My first kung fu class was in my early 20's and that's when I started learning how to exploit high kicks.  It wasn't until my late 20's that I really started to restrict high kicks.  I would try to maintain the flexibility but that's about it.
> 
> A lot of people here have taken other martial arts as well.  Some of us are at an age where the flexibility isn't what it used to be.  So they may not be able to kick high now, but have had experience in doing so.
> 
> ...



I was talking about you now. Your selective search does not impress me.

Here is a taekwondo guy beating up a Kyokushin-kai.


----------



## Acronym (Dec 27, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> I don't think he ever said they don't work - just that they have problems.



That's an outdated pre WW2 sentiment. Most martial arts systems incorporate head kicks.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I was talking about you now. Your selective search does not impress me.
> 
> Here is a taekwondo guy beating up a Kyokushin-kai.


Here is what I see in that video.

1. The video is a clip of successful kicks, it's not the entire fight as it played out.  It's a highlight of successful kicks so I'm going base my comments on that.

2.  I saw one person who knew how to kick the head and another person who didn't know how to exploit the kick.  Due to the lack of that knowledge, the TKD saw an opportunity to kick the head and went for it, which is what I've said  already Post #23 and Post #76 and not this one.  

3. Based on the clip that were shown, I didn't see any attempts to attack the standing leg. So based on that, I would say that the other fighter didn't know how to exploit high kicks.

4. @:023 the TKD guy exploits his opponents high kick, and sweeps the standing leg which I've stated before.

5. The TKD's outskilled his opponent and as a result he was able to use those high kicks more freely

6. The TKD's opponent had horrible kick defense and only choose to kick the calf or shin of his opponent.  No front kicks, no side kicks, 

It's hard to really say for certain because what you showed were clips of the fight and not the entire fight.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> That's an outdated pre WW2 sentiment. Most martial arts systems incorporate head kicks.


Most martial arts system will also warn about the risks of doing high kicks as well.  

Here's the reality about kicks.  When you do them you are stuck standing on one leg. Ways to exploit that
1. Cover your head quickly move forward towards your opponent's center.  This removes your head from the end of the kick, that's where the danger is.  The forward force should be strong enough to cause the standing leg to lose the root, when your body collides.

2. When someone kicks high drop and sweep the standing leg or kick the standing leg.  If it's a sport then a circular strike can be used. If it's in self-defense then kick into the knee joint.

3. When a high kick is circular move 45 degrees forward into the kick while covered.  This attacks the weak part of the kick.

4. When a high kick is circular move 45 degrees foward in the same direction of the kick.  This is where the kick will not reach you.

5. When a high kick is circular cover with one hand and punch with the other.  The target should either be the face or the body, depending on how far they lean back to do the high kick.  Landing a solid punch will disrupt the power of the  kick.

6. If the kick lands but gets caught on your body, then seize the kicking leg and attack the standing leg.

I've tried these against 2 TKD practitioners, one who used to train in the same school that I did and another from a different school.  The only real requirement is that one has to get used to moving forward aggressively and always be on the look out for kicks.   These tactics work best with a mirrored stance if your opponent likes to kick with their rear leg.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 27, 2020)

Same stuff I've been saying is the same stuff this TKD guy say about  countering a kick to the head.  
Two different systems coming to the same conclusion.






Similar principle as I showed here.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 27, 2020)

Another system coming to the same conclusion.  Move foward 45 degree angle.


----------



## Gwai Lo Dan (Dec 27, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> I don't think he ever said they don't work - just that they have problems.


I think Bill Wallace said it best: "The problem with kicking is that you are standing on one foot".


----------



## paitingman (Dec 27, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> Most martial arts system will also warn about the risks of doing high kicks as well.
> 
> Here's the reality about kicks.  When you do them you are stuck standing on one leg. Ways to exploit that
> 1. Cover your head quickly move forward towards your opponent's center.  This removes your head from the end of the kick, that's where the danger is.  The forward force should be strong enough to cause the standing leg to lose the root, when your body collides.
> ...



There is a serious lack of this kind of thinking in many TKD schools. If not lead by your teacher, you need to let your mind wander and question. 

It should really go without saying, but it is the job of the TKD practitioner to understand the six maneuvers you brought up and much more. 
The kicker should fully understand as many of the risks of and counters to the kicks they throw as they can. 

As a lifelong TKD man, I LOVE when people try to kick me lol. I don't care what striking system you practice; once you lift a foot off the floor, you are in my world. It is very rare and exciting when I meet someone who understands the dangers of being on one leg better than I do haha. Getting swept off my feet [usually] only excites me to learn what the heck just happened.


----------



## Acronym (Dec 27, 2020)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I think Bill Wallace said it best: "The problem with kicking is that you are standing on one foot".



There is no problem if you kick to knock someone out, because that person will go into survival mode and not focus on some kung fu sweep he did in a friendly sparring session


----------



## Acronym (Dec 27, 2020)

paitingman said:


> There is a serious lack of this kind of thinking in many TKD schools. If not lead by your teacher, you need to let your mind wander and question.
> 
> It should really go without saying, but it is the job of the TKD practitioner to understand the six maneuvers you brought up and much more.
> The kicker should fully understand as many of the risks of and counters to the kicks they throw as they can.
> ...



Because they are play patty cake, not because high kicking doesn't work.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Yes I am certain of that since I am well read on the subject and I grew up with Hapkido. I don't need to visit schools in order to qualify that statement.
> 
> I can't speak for the emphasis however, but your claim that spin kicks are rare in the US is very questionable.
> 
> ...


You might want to look back at my post. I made no claim that they were rare in the US, just that they were rare at a few schools I was familliar with years ago. As for your certainty................


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> That's an outdated pre WW2 sentiment. Most martial arts systems incorporate head kicks.


Which is not a refutation of the statement that they have problems. As someone else mentioned, everything you do opens something else up. Try again.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> There is no problem if you kick to knock someone out, because that person will go into survival mode and not focus on some kung fu sweep he did in a friendly sparring session


So, you disagree with Bill Wallace?


----------



## Dirty Dog (Dec 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> There is no problem if you kick to knock someone out, because that person will go into survival mode and not focus on some kung fu sweep he did in a friendly sparring session



How do they do that when knocked out?
I'm not sure you understand this stuff as well as you think you do...


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 27, 2020)

paitingman said:


> As a lifelong TKD man, I LOVE when people try to kick me lol. I don't care what striking system you practice; once you lift a foot off the floor, you are in my world.


lol what's the saying.  Don't try to outbox a boxer.   Well this one is don't try to out kick a kicker for me.  Friendly sparring, I'll eat a few kicks, at least at that point I hope my sparring partner is kind lol.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> There is no problem if you kick to knock someone out, because that person will go into survival mode and not focus on some kung fu sweep he did in a friendly sparring session


so if you and I were sparring on a hard floor, you would be ok with me sweeping your standing leg or kicking your standing leg with full force?


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 27, 2020)

1924  Savate says


----------



## Acronym (Dec 27, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> so if you and I were sparring on a hard floor, you would be ok with me sweeping your standing leg or kicking your standing leg with full force?



Have you ever heard of a thing called TIMING? I would high kick when there's an opening.


----------



## Acronym (Dec 27, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> lol what's the saying.  Don't try to outbox a boxer.   Well this one is don't try to out kick a kicker for me.  Friendly sparring, I'll eat a few kicks, at least at that point I hope my sparring partner is kind lol.



Then you will get chopped up at long range. Arm vs leg, which is longer?


----------



## Acronym (Dec 27, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> So, you disagree with Bill Wallace?



Yes. And I don't approve of his  way of kicking when sweeps and grabs are allowed


----------



## Acronym (Dec 27, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Which is not a refutation of the statement that they have problems. As someone else mentioned, everything you do opens something else up. Try again.



If it applies to everything then he wouldn't need to single out high kicks.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 27, 2020)

Nailed it


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 27, 2020)

1967 TKD says.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Have you ever heard of a thing called TIMING? I would high kick when there's an opening.


I've never heard of timing before.  What's that?


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 27, 2020)

Women getting kicked in the groin during high kick


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 27, 2020)

Just saying


----------



## dvcochran (Dec 27, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> 1967 TKD says.
> View attachment 23439


Man I wish that was a clearer image.


----------



## Acronym (Dec 27, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> I've never heard of timing before.  What's that?



Timing is delivering a strike when the opponent doesn't expect it.


----------



## Acronym (Dec 27, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> Nailed it
> View attachment 23440



You don't need any martial arts training to kick someone in the groin.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> You don't need any martial arts training to kick someone in the groin.


You have to at least be at a black belt skill level to be able to kick someone in the groin when they high kick.


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## Acronym (Dec 27, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> You have to at least be at a black belt skill level to be able to kick someone in the groin when they high kick.



Lol no


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## Deleted member 39746 (Dec 28, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I noticed a pattern on this forum that people who can't do technique X are the ones who reject it.
> 
> I guess that's what we call ego?



If you cant do it, there is little point in including it into your game plan.  I wouldnt say translate everything to "its useless to me", but i think you can add that to a lot of things and it works fine.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Dec 28, 2020)

You need to be able to kick to, suprise kick somone with what ever kick you are doing, the first kick you tend to learn is the front/instep kick, so its sort of a low bar.   Its pretty simple to pick up as well. 

An instep kick is literally, take your leg and move it up aiming with your instep or shin to the target.  Not really the hardest thing to do, and you achive a result if you make them flinch anyway. 

Black belts for these things tend to end up spinning about all over the place so i have no idea.   Seems like a pretty basic upper level sort of counter to something, duck and spin kick them.


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## Earl Weiss (Dec 28, 2020)

Rat said:


> Why does it always come back to semantics with martial arts?   T.............................. Like if you change all the major tenents in a ideology, can you really still call it the same name?


You can change the major tenents / tenants- just not the Tenets.   Sorry, couldn't resist with  "Semantics"  in thepost.


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## Earl Weiss (Dec 28, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> I don't remember ever saying that high kicks don't work.  I*."* #76


I stand corrected.


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## Acronym (Dec 28, 2020)

The opposition to head kicks in the old days was well known, to the point that they were left out of the Karate katas. Ironically, they did include an aerial kick - jumping front kick. A pretty goofy technique.

Today you can't get graded without demonstrating a number of kicks, and this school even required spinning side kicks.

That is the extent of the change in the zeitgeist. Even though the katas never got updated,the curriculum did. Some Karate masters added new katas with a mawashi geri but then regretted it (what a sin!).


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 28, 2020)

I think the issue with head kicks today is that the standing leg can't be targeted in a lot of martial arts sports as defined by the rules
1.  You can't target the groin
2.  You can't do a back sweep on the standing leg
3.  You can't kick into the knee of a standing leg

The rules in martial arts sports pretty much protect the front leg from sweeps, with the exception of the front sweep.  Because of the way the rules are set up, people have an inaccurate perception of the high kick.

Accidental kicks to the groin when doing a side kick is considered to be "an accident" and against the rule in martial arts sports,

But in real life application.  That's exactly what you want to do and those kicks to the groin are actually good martial arts; the way it should be without the rule set.


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## Acronym (Dec 28, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> I think the issue with head kicks today is that the standing leg can't be targeted in a lot of martial arts sports as defined by the rules
> 1.  You can't target the groin
> 2.  You can't do a back sweep on the standing leg
> 3.  You can't kick into the knee of a standing leg
> ...



You can do sweep on the supporting leg in MMA. You can also kick into the knee


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 28, 2020)

Acronym said:


> You can do sweep on the supporting leg in MMA. You can also kick into the knee


I'm pretty sure you aren't allowed to kick into the knee of a standing leg when kicking.  To do so would cause permanent injury to the knee.  

The knee kick that you are thinking about is not the same one I'm thinking about.    The one that I'm thinking about would be like you standing on one leg and I stop into the knee of that leg with a side kick.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 28, 2020)

Acronym said:


> You can do sweep on the supporting leg in MMA. You can also kick into the knee


I've only seen front sweeps in mma.  in general not many MMA fighters actually know how to sweep.  In general not many MMA fighters actually use a high kick to the head.


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## Acronym (Dec 28, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm pretty sure you aren't allowed to kick into the knee of a standing leg when kicking.  To do so would cause permanent injury to the knee.
> 
> The knee kick that you are thinking about is not the same one I'm thinking about.    The one that I'm thinking about would be like you standing on one leg and I stop into the knee of that leg with a side kick.



It's perfectly legal. 

What are the rules concerning kicking in MMA? Can you kick somebody in the knee? - Quora


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 28, 2020)

Acronym said:


> It's perfectly legal.
> 
> What are the rules concerning kicking in MMA? Can you kick somebody in the knee? - Quora


But it doesn't specify what type of kicks to the knee.  There's more than one type of kick that can be done to the knee.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 28, 2020)

Acronym said:


> It's perfectly legal.
> 
> What are the rules concerning kicking in MMA? Can you kick somebody in the knee? - Quora


I'm not seeing any official information/source listed there.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 28, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I'm not seeing any official information/source listed there.


The rules that I was able to find were very general.  The UFC has a rule about unsportsman like conduct, which could be anything. 

There's rules against groin kicks but not against tiger clawing the groin.  So is diger clawing the groin illegal or unsportsmanlike.

If someone does a high kick and I side kick into their standing leg, depending on how that standing leg's knee is turned I can easily tear up the ligaments in that knee causing someone's career to end.   So is that illegal or unsportsman like? Since kicks to the knees are allowed in some MMA venues.    Some MMA organizations ban knee kicks all together.

What I want to know specifically is,  Do the rules allow the defender to strike the knee of a standing leg of a kicker.  So if someone is standing one leg, can I just start doing side kicks into the knee.
So instead of kicking the groin.  Can I target the knee of the standing leg.  Or would that be unsportsman like in their books?


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 28, 2020)

Or is it only unsportsman like if my opponent suffers a knee injury that ends is career.  Or is it fair game if it doesn't cause injury.?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 28, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> The rules that I was able to find were very general.  The UFC has a rule about unsportsman like conduct, which could be anything.
> 
> There's rules against groin kicks but not against tiger clawing the groin.  So is diger clawing the groin illegal or unsportsmanlike.
> 
> ...


From what I can tell there's no rule against it, although people were wanting a rule against it at one point due to jon jones. I would assume that unless there's a specific clause about it, that it's allowed, although like you said who decides what's considered unsportsmanlike? @Tez3 might be able to give us a more exact answer to this..


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## Acronym (Dec 28, 2020)

You are allowed to do any number of spoiler techniques.

Here's Weidman doing one which Broke silvas leg. Weidman had specifically prepared for it


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## Tony Dismukes (Dec 28, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> The problem isn't not knowing BJJ.  The guy literally won a BJJ match without doing any BJJ. All he used was a wrist lock. match over.


Just so you know, the winner _was _using BJJ. That particular standing wrist lock is part of BJJ. I've been taught it by multiple BJJ instructors.

I don't personally use it in sparring because it's kind of a tricky move to pull off and I haven't practiced it enough. (It's also kind of nasty because it hits quickly in actual application and doesn't give much time for the recipient to tap out. My wrists are kind of messed up with arthritis and bone spurs and I try to avoid using techniques in sparring that I don't want my sparring partners to turn around and do back to me.)

I do occasionally go for other stand-up wrist locks in sparring (and have had them used against me). The vast majority of the time they don't "work" in the sense of producing a tap/break or a throw. However the threat of the wrist getting locked can force the opponent to move and thereby give up a more advantageous position.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 28, 2020)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Just so you know, the winner _was _using BJJ. That particular standing wrist lock is part of BJJ. I've been taught it by multiple BJJ instructors.


I've seen similar wrist locks in Chin Na.  Where you lock the wrist using the body .  If I can find my Chin Na book, I'll take a scan of it and show you the picture of it.   The concept is always the same regardless of the system.  Bend the joint in a way that it naturally doesn't bend. 

But I'll post that picture once I find my book.


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## Acronym (Dec 28, 2020)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Just so you know, the winner _was _using BJJ. That particular standing wrist lock is part of BJJ. I've been taught it by multiple BJJ instructors.



Is it in Aikido?


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 28, 2020)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Just so you know, the winner _was _using BJJ. That particular standing wrist lock is part of BJJ. I've been taught it by multiple BJJ instructors.
> 
> I don't personally use it in sparring because it's kind of a tricky move to pull off and I haven't practiced it enough. (It's also kind of nasty because it hits quickly in actual application and doesn't give much time for the recipient to tap out. My wrists are kind of messed up with arthritis and bone spurs and I try to avoid using techniques in sparring that I don't want my sparring partners to turn around and do back to me.)
> 
> I do occasionally go for other stand-up wrist locks in sparring (and have had them used against me). The vast majority of the time they don't "work" in the sense of producing a tap/break or a throw. However the threat of the wrist getting locked can force the opponent to move and thereby give up a more advantageous position.


If the person is aware of the danger of a joint being locked then that person would move in a way that makes it more difficult.  Small joint locks are easier to pull off if you can distract the person with something else while you are initiating the lock. 

If a person has experienced the lock before then they will recognize the feel of the other person's hand positioning for the lock and that makes it harder as well.   In applications these locks should hit quickly,  there shouldn't be time for them to do much of anything but feel the pain and stop fighting.  There's no gradual onset of pain that you can feel creeping up unless you are doing a demo.

It's even worse when you get someone who thinks they can fight their way out of it, because once you get it to the lock in position, you'll do all you can to prevent them from breaking their own joints.


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## Tony Dismukes (Dec 28, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm pretty sure you aren't allowed to kick into the knee of a standing leg when kicking.  To do so would cause permanent injury to the knee.
> 
> The knee kick that you are thinking about is not the same one I'm thinking about.    The one that I'm thinking about would be like you standing on one leg and I stop into the knee of that leg with a side kick.


Just so you know, that counter is totally legal under standard MMA rules.



JowGaWolf said:


> I think the issue with head kicks today is that the standing leg can't be targeted in a lot of martial arts sports as defined by the rules
> 1. You can't target the groin
> 2. You can't do a back sweep on the standing leg
> 3. You can't kick into the knee of a standing leg
> ...



I have sparred at a school where they allowed groin kicks. It didn't eliminate high kicks, but it did make you a lot more aware of setting them up carefully.



JowGaWolf said:


> Most martial arts system will also warn about the risks of doing high kicks as well.
> 
> Here's the reality about kicks.  When you do them you are stuck standing on one leg. Ways to exploit that
> 1. Cover your head quickly move forward towards your opponent's center.  This removes your head from the end of the kick, that's where the danger is.  The forward force should be strong enough to cause the standing leg to lose the root, when your body collides.
> ...



The thing about high kicks is that they are high risk/ high reward. In order to make the reward worth the risk in contexts where counters like the ones you mentioned are allowed, the kicker needs to have a few skills in place:


They need to know how to set up the kick in such a way that their opponent has minimal opportunity to execute the counter. Timing, position, relative movement of the combatants, and more all contribute to this.
They need to know how to mitigate the risks if they do get countered. If they get swept, they need to know how to fall safely and defend themselves on the ground. If they get counter punched, they need to know how to cover their head and move offline while kicking.
They need their high kicks to be fast and deceptive enough to negate the disadvantage which comes from a kick which travels further and therefore allows more reaction time.
They need their high kicks to be powerful enough so that the potential reward (a one-shot knockout) is worth the added risks.
I'm not personally a huge fan of high kicks, but I have seen a number of fighters show that they can absolutely make the rewards worth the risk. (Generally these are pro-level fighters. I wouldn't recommend most casual hobbyists throw high kicks in a real fight.)


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## Tony Dismukes (Dec 28, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Is it in Aikido?


I haven't seen that particular setup in Aikido, but I'm not an Aikido practitioner and don't know everything in the art. Perhaps one of the Aikidoka on the board can let us know.


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## Tony Dismukes (Dec 28, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> If the person is aware of the danger of a joint being locked then that person would move in a way that makes it more difficult. Small joint locks are easier to pull off if you can distract the person with something else while you are initiating the lock.


Exactly. Wristlock finishes aren't the most common submission in BJJ, but they do happen because competitors will get so caught up in defending a choke or armlock or throw that they forget to notice their wrist is in danger.



JowGaWolf said:


> If a person has experienced the lock before then they will recognize the feel of the other person's hand positioning for the lock and that makes it harder as well.


Yep. However sometimes you can use their reaction as they reposition to avoid the wrist lock to improve your own position.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 28, 2020)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I have sparred at a school where they allowed groin kicks. It didn't eliminate high kicks, but it did make you a lot more aware of setting them up carefully.


I knew it wouldn't eliminate the head kicks but it changes how freely one does the the high kicks especially if someone is targeting the groin or the standing leg.  

I see this happen often with TKD fighters who fight against people who look for the high kick.  The first round the TKD person does his high kick and the majority of those high kicks result in being swept.  It takes about 5 or 6 sweeps before the TKD person starts backing out.   If you are getting punished because you are kicking high, then you are less willing to kick high.  If you get kicked in the groin 5 or 6 times when you kick high, then how likely are you going to kick high a 7th time.?


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 28, 2020)

Tony Dismukes said:


> The thing about high kicks is that they are high risk/ high reward. In order to make the reward worth the risk in contexts where counters like the ones you mentioned are allowed, the kicker needs to have a few skills in place:
> 
> 
> They need to know how to set up the kick in such a way that their opponent has minimal opportunity to execute the counter. Timing, position, relative movement of the combatants, and more all contribute to this.
> ...


I agree 100%.  The person who counters high kicks and exploits them also needs a skill set of their own to deal with the high kicks.  I still cringe when I see people trying to back out of the range of kicks.   Or when they try to move side ways to avoid kicks. The defender doesn't understand kicks and the mechanics of kicks, then you can just kick them all day. 

Sort of like when boxer's try to keep their distance in the Boxer vs kick boxer videos.  They don't realize that they keep putting their legs within that kicks power zone.   Everything from stances direction of movement will play a role in countering a kick.

It took me 3 or 4 continuous moves just set my brother up with this one.  I can't set him up by waiting for a kick and then responding.  There no way I can do this type of sweep from a stand still.  It would be nice if I was that quick, but he would have read my intent and I would have been kicked with something else.  If a person doesn't understand the motion of the kick or how the body shifts in order to kick, then there's no way he /she will be able to exploit a high kick. They would be better off rushing the kicker and hope that, the kicker doesn't like front kicks.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 28, 2020)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Yep. However sometimes you can use their reaction as they reposition to avoid the wrist lock to improve your own position.


One thing I want to learn is how to go into one Wrist lock and flow into another.  I think I would have better success if I can use my opponent's escape to trap them into another wrist lock.


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## Tony Dismukes (Dec 28, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> I knew it wouldn't eliminate the head kicks but it changes how freely one does the the high kicks especially if someone is targeting the groin or the standing leg.
> 
> I see this happen often with TKD fighters who fight against people who look for the high kick.  The first round the TKD person does his high kick and the majority of those high kicks result in being swept.  It takes about 5 or 6 sweeps before the TKD person starts backing out.   If you are getting punished because you are kicking high, then you are less willing to kick high.  If you get kicked in the groin 5 or 6 times when you kick high, then how likely are you going to kick high a 7th time.?


Yeah, if someone only trains and spars in a ruleset where there are no negative consequences for a high kick, then they will lack the knowledge of how to set them up safely in a different context.



JowGaWolf said:


> In general not many MMA fighters actually use a high kick to the head.


They've gotten a lot more popular as fighters have figured out how to use them correctly.








You'll notice that almost all of these knockouts happened when the fighter being kicked either didn't see the kick coming, wasn't in a position to defend against it, or was fooled into thinking the kick was coming to a different target.


JowGaWolf said:


> I've only seen front sweeps in mma. in general not many MMA fighters actually know how to sweep


Here are a few ...








It's hard to find videos which focus on just sweeps as separate from throws, but this one has some really nice sweeps mixed in with the throws and slams:


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## Tony Dismukes (Dec 28, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> One thing I want to learn is how to go into one Wrist lock and flow into another.  I think I would have better success if I can use my opponent's escape to trap them into another wrist lock.


That sort of lock flow is commonly taught in arts like Aikido, Hapkido, Silat, and Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, but I haven't had much luck with it. Generally a savvy opponent will defend his wrist by fixing his position and alignment so that the wrist is safe from follow ups. What I've had more luck with is using the threat of the wrist lock to break grips or move the opponents arm out of the way so I can get a superior angle or momentarily weaken their structure to set up a strike.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 28, 2020)

Tony Dismukes said:


> They've gotten a lot more popular as fighters have figured out how to use them correctly.


This is going to be a long one.  You posted some good videos.

That will all change once the fighters become skilled at taking advantage of the high kicks.  Then it will be back to the low kicks.

For example,  if he saw enough of the kick to shell up like this then he could equally train to make moving foward at a 45 degree angle towards the  standing leg a trainted reponse.  The closer he is to the kicker the less effective that kick will be.  I can tell by how close he is that is well within range attack that standing leg. 

The only time I've blocked a kick like this was at the last minute against a round house to my ribs. The kick was part of a counter that came after I attack and I didn't have this much time to respond. 45 degrees forward (left or right ) would have taking a lot of this kick. His stance is set up perfectly to move forward to his left, but he didn't so he ate that kick.

Even if it was side kick, if he could move forward before the power came then he would have still been in a good position.  





Front leg sweep... Missed opportunity





Moving backwards instead of forwards.  Moving forward.  Side kick to the standing leg would have broke the power in this kick.  Instead he moves back.




There were a quite a few which were good kicks but worse defense. Things like bending over and getting kicked in the face is a never ending lecture in Kung Fu schools. There were like 7 kicks where the defender lens into the the incoming kick.  To me this is the most dangerous kick along with brutal leg kicks. 

The reason that this kick is so dangerous is because it exploits the limitations of the body.  People with broad shoulders / wide chest,  have an opening right down the center of the body.  The only way to close it is to not face forward like what you see in this picture..  The second limitation is a person's field of vision.  The kick is traveling outside of his field of vision and he literally cannot see it.  He can see the knee and the shin, but he can't see the foot which is why  he's caught in the head lights.

When the brain can't compute the arrival time of a strike it cannot see and when a strike is outside of the field of vision then brain will compute other stuff.  That's what makes this kick more dangerous.  Everyone else saw the kick coming and just did the wrong thing.  This guy get nailed and never sees it coming.  He seels the knee, but not the business end of this kick.




But everything else were of people leaning into the kicks like they were trying to use the kick like a pillow.  That's a foundation issue, .  Back to basics


I saw the Tony Ferguson sweep.  I'm glad he gave it a try but it look like he was still trying to figure it out just how to use it.  Not sure I would call it a Kung Fu sweep thought.

I don't think I've seen this one before, but this is a guy who understands high kicks.  I'm not saying that because he sweeps the guy,  I'm staying it because  of what's needed to set it up.  Which is why did a screen shot of this.  The timing that is required to pull sweeps off is insane compared to some of the other stuff. Which is why I was kind of surprised when Acronym really didn't realize that I knew what timing is.  He knew from his first movement that the kick was coming..

The kicker only sees the head and the torso, but the guy sweeping has to be aware of foot position in relations to the kicker. The sweeper's left foot is in range (remember I often say people don't pay attention to their feet.), the kicer is paying attention.   That left foot is already starting the spin.  Back sweeps can either drop, or lean and that's what causes the kick to miss.  

He has a good "Old man sweep"  That's the sweep where you are too old to lower your sweep,  The lower the sweep the more power the sweep will have.  The sweep catches the back of the knee so the legs just folds.  Had the sweep been on the Achilles Tendon of the kicker, then the  kicker would have been in the air, then on his back.  But excellent timing on it.  The other thing that I like about that "old man sweep" is that you can turn it into a low spinning heel kick.





This kicks and sweeps have a similar motion.  If you can do one, then you should be able to do the other. Just as easily


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 28, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Is it in Aikido?


Yes.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 28, 2020)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Just so you know, that counter is totally legal under standard MMA rules.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And the less experienced your opponent is against them, the easier they are to pull off. Most decent kickers would consider my kicks so-so. Against folks who don’t train against high kicks, I can still sometimes get them in. Against someone with a bit of training against high kicks, I won’t even try.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 28, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> One thing I want to learn is how to go into one Wrist lock and flow into another.  I think I would have better success if I can use my opponent's escape to trap them into another wrist lock.


That kind of flow drill is one of my favorite practices.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 28, 2020)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Yeah, if someone only trains and spars in a ruleset where there are no negative consequences for a high kick, then they will lack the knowledge of how to set them up safely in a different context.
> 
> 
> They've gotten a lot more popular as fighters have figured out how to use them correctly.
> ...


I’ve seen some nice videos where one fighter used a kick over and over to the body. Once his opponent gets the pattern and starts reacting early, he switches to a head kick. Have seen the same with setting up big punches.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 28, 2020)

Tony Dismukes said:


> That sort of lock flow is commonly taught in arts like Aikido, Hapkido, Silat, and Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, but I haven't had much luck with it. Generally a savvy opponent will defend his wrist by fixing his position and alignment so that the wrist is safe from follow ups. What I've had more luck with is using the threat of the wrist lock to break grips or move the opponents arm out of the way so I can get a superior angle or momentarily weaken their structure to set up a strike.


The flow is more effective on less experienced folks. Once you know the flow, you can counter beyond that first move.


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## Tony Dismukes (Dec 28, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> This is going to be a long one.  You posted some good videos.
> 
> That will all change once the fighters become skilled at taking advantage of the high kicks.  Then it will be back to the low kicks.
> 
> ...


What I think you might be missing is that the "errors" you see in the fighters getting knocked out aren't due to ignorance or lack of skill or training. They are "forced" errors induced by the attacker.

For example, why were several of the fighters caught leaning into the kicks? A common reason is that the attacker had faked them them out into expecting a punch from a different angle which that head movement would have been an appropriate response for. Another reason is that the attacker has just been dominating the wrestling and the defender is both tired and trying escape the clinch and regain their posture (but gets knocked out before they can fix their structure).

The defender gets caught moving backwards? Yep, the attacker started the combination with aggressive punching and waited to kick until they saw their opponent was moving back and not in a good position to change direction to counter the kick.

That spin wheel kick KO by Uriah Hall - you say that his opponent "if he saw enough of the kick to shell up like this then he could equally train to make moving foward at a 45 degree angle towards the standing leg a trainted reponse". The problem is, that his opponent just saw movement but wasn't able to process in time what the attack actually was. I don't think he even knew for sure if it was a kick, a punch, a fake, or what direction it was coming from.

This is part of why high kicks work better at the professional level than at the amateur level. Human reaction time is limited by the speed of our nervous system. Typically about 1/5 to 1/4 of a second is the fastest we can perceive a stimulus and initiate any sort of response. If we have to interpret the stimulus and decide on an appropriate reaction, then the time becomes significantly longer. So how can fighters effectively react to and counter punches that are completed in less than a 1/4 second? The secret is that the process doesn't start after the punch begins. A good fighter reads his opponent, knows what attacks are possible from a given position, and then picks up the cues to know (at least subconsciously on a probabilistic level) what type of strike is coming and begin the counter as (or even before) the attack begins. If a fighter can throw a high kick fast enough to so that the opponent can't see it coming and non-telegraphically enough that the opponent can't read it, then the unpredictability of the attack may make it worth it. Most casual hobbyists throw high kicks which are slow enough and telegraphed enough that they aren't too hard to counter.

In the case of the Uriah Hall spinning wheel kick KO, the kick took approximately 3/4 of a second to travel from the ground to Adam Cella's face. He proceeded the kick with a fake in the opposite direction. (If that fake had been a real attack, then moving forward at a 45 degree angle could have been a costly mistake for his opponent.) He then transitioned seamlessly from that fake to the spin kick with no hesitation, wasted movement, or telegraphing. By the time Cella's brain had a chance to process what was happening, it was too late. Probably he had no idea what Hall was actually throwing until he woke up and watched the replay video.


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## Tony Dismukes (Dec 28, 2020)

Tony Dismukes said:


> That spin wheel kick KO by Uriah Hall - you say that his opponent "if he saw enough of the kick to shell up like this then he could equally train to make moving foward at a 45 degree angle towards the standing leg a trainted reponse". The problem is, that his opponent just saw movement but wasn't able to process in time what the attack actually was. I don't think he even knew for sure if it was a kick, a punch, a fake, or what direction it was coming from.
> 
> This is part of why high kicks work better at the professional level than at the amateur level. Human reaction time is limited by the speed of our nervous system. Typically about 1/5 to 1/4 of a second is the fastest we can perceive a stimulus and initiate any sort of response. If we have to interpret the stimulus and decide on an appropriate reaction, then the time becomes significantly longer. So how can fighters effectively react to and counter punches that are completed in less than a 1/4 second? The secret is that the process doesn't start after the punch begins. A good fighter reads his opponent, knows what attacks are possible from a given position, and then picks up the cues to know (at least subconsciously on a probabilistic level) what type of strike is coming and begin the counter as (or even before) the attack begins. If a fighter can throw a high kick fast enough to so that the opponent can't see it coming and non-telegraphically enough that the opponent can't read it, then the unpredictability of the attack may make it worth it. Most casual hobbyists throw high kicks which are slow enough and telegraphed enough that they aren't too hard to counter.
> 
> In the case of the Uriah Hall spinning wheel kick KO, the kick took approximately 3/4 of a second to travel from the ground to Adam Cella's face. He proceeded the kick with a fake in the opposite direction. (If that fake had been a real attack, then moving forward at a 45 degree angle could have been a costly mistake for his opponent.) He then transitioned seamlessly from that fake to the spin kick with no hesitation, wasted movement, or telegraphing. By the time Cella's brain had a chance to process what was happening, it was too late. Probably he had no idea what Hall was actually throwing until he woke up and watched the replay video.


I should add that Hall not only executed the kick perfectly, but he also chose the right moment against the right type of opponent. If he had been up against a fighter who liked to dart in and out of range and whose default reaction to an unknown stimulus was to bounce back, then the kick would probably have missed. If he had been up against an aggressive wrestler who was looking for any opportunity to shoot in low, then he might have been taken down. However Cella was demonstrating a style of slowly stalking forward, blocking punches, and looking for an opening to counterstrike. This gave Hall the perfect opening for the setup he used.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 28, 2020)

Tony Dismukes said:


> What I think you might be missing is that the "errors" you see in the fighters getting knocked out aren't due to ignorance or lack of skill or training. They are "forced" errors induced by the attacker.


To me they are errors because of the way I've been trained.  For example, It's forbidden to bend over like that for the same reason.  This is stressed so much that other TMAs stress the importance of having an up right stance.   If you need to duck, then lower your stance.  If you need to slip a punch then do so by moving your feet and not by weaving your head.

The reason why the teachers have such a stick up their butts about it is because of the videos that you show.  You start leaning into thing things like kicks, punches, and knees.  My sparring partner had a habit of doing the same thing and his head was always moving into the firing path  of my fist.  The same thing I saw in that video is the exact same stuff my Karate teacher told me as a kid.  It's the same thing that 3 Jow Ga Sifu's have said.  It's the same thing that even these kids are saying





So it's not just me. Lean forward with your face and you'll eat a bunch of bad things.  So for me I have no other way to look at it. Don't get me wrong,  the kicks were solid.  I'm not discounting 



Tony Dismukes said:


> They are "forced" errors induced by the attacker.


 Train bad habits and they will show during game time.  Whatever you don't know or should have known will become clear during game time.   Bad habit and lack of knowledge can be induced by your attacker.  Just because the attacker induced it doesn't  clear the reaction from being bad habit or lack of experience.

A person can have experience with fighting but no experience with punching.  Olympic TKD.  A person can have experience with punching but no experience with kicking.. Boxing.  Why do some fighters eat the kicks and other's do not?  What is it that one fighter knows that the other one doesn't?



Tony Dismukes said:


> A common reason is that the attacker had faked them them out into expecting a punch from a different angle which that head movement would have been an appropriate response for.


  Change your stance height and you can duck without bending over.  In boxing  you can can do more of that because you don't have to worry about knees and kicks.  You still have to watch out for upper cuts though.

Watch any Muay Thai fight and you'll see very little of that type of bending over.  Does it mean that you won't get KO'd by a kick? of course not, but what it does mean is that you won't get KO'd by bowing to a kick.  And that means it's one less opportunity you are giving to your opponent to knock you out. 

People ask question about repetition in TMA's as being a waste, but few every bring up the fact that repetition can also train out the bad habits.  So the question is are they are training out their bad habits and natural tendencies that sometime create the bad habits.



Tony Dismukes said:


> The defender gets caught moving backwards? Yep, the attacker started the combination with aggressive punching and waited to kick until they saw their opponent was moving back and not in a good position to change direction to counter the kick.


I'll have to look at the video again. Because when I pulled the screenshots I was specifically looking for when the fighter knew that the kick was coming.  When I played that video he moved back at the same time the motion of the kick started.

The natural response is to move away from danger and not run towards it.  A lot of that has to be trained when dealing with strikes because some of the safe areas for strikes are actually closer to the opponent.  You want to prevent your opponent from kicking,  get closer to him.  You still have to watch out for knees and other short range strikes, but you don't have to work about a high kick to the head if you are in tight putting the pressure and changing angles.



Tony Dismukes said:


> The problem is, that his opponent just saw movement but wasn't able to process in time what the attack actually was.


All I see when I spar is movement.  Punching movement and kicking movements are different and the movement actually begins before the punch or kick shows up.  For kicks the body shifts a certain way,  For punches the body will shift weight another way.  The best way to detect this movement is to learn how to look at things using the rods of your eye instead of the cones.  The cones will give you detail but the rods will allow you to detect motion better than the cones.   Sounds crazy but this is true.

A lot of times when you see me just taking hits from my sparring partner, it's because I'm training my eye sight to learn the movements. Think of it like this.  When a big dog walks by you focus on it.  That's the cones in your eye working.  But when you catch small things like gnats and mosquitoes flying your cones are picking that up.  Then when you switch to your cones to try to smash the mosquito or gnat then you will sometimes loose site of it.  Then you'll switch back to your rods in your eyes to pick up movement.  You may not be able to tell if it's a gnat or a mosquito you just know it's a bug flying.

When I spar, I don't look at your chest, or your eyes, or your hands or your body.  I will actually look a few feet behind where you are actually standing, this allows me to detect your motion.  Defensive motion looks different from attacking motion as well.  But when you see the attacking motion, don't process if it's a kick or a punch.  View it as as an attack that is about to happen, then try to land your attack before your your opponent can launch his / hers.

All of this sounds easy but it isn't because using rods means that I'm looking at the person out of focus and the natural tendency is to put things in focus.  It's also something that I would train as light that only stays on if your are pressing it.  I say this because I did this for about 30 minutes and it took a while for my eyes to be able to focus.  Activate it for a minute and then turn it off for 5.



Tony Dismukes said:


> Human reaction time is limited by the speed of our nervous system. Typically about 1/5 to 1/4 of a second is the fastest we can perceive a stimulus and initiate any sort of response. If we have to interpret the stimulus and decide on an appropriate reaction, then the time becomes significantly longer.


 This is why I don't process what kind of punch or what kind of kick is coming my way. The only thing I need to process is when you are about to do something and was it a weight shift for a punch or for a kick.
I don't think what comes next because I don't have time to think about what technique I'm going to respond with.  My sparring class address things like that. Again I know I'm probably making this sound easy but it's not.  I had to train a lot of bad habits out and natural reactions and I wasn't able to get rid of them all. 

The last person that I thought how to do this was floored when he was able to do it just once.  I knew he got it right because he described it exactly how it looks and feels.  I could see the amazement in his eyes, that reminded me of how I felt when I first did it.  The time issue that you speak of changes because from the start you are reducing the amount of data that you have to process and when you do that, things look differently and are processed differently.

But you can only get like this when you spar to learn.  It's a learned skill set and not a triggered one.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 28, 2020)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I should add that Hall not only executed the kick perfectly, but he also chose the right moment against the right type of opponent. If he had been up against a fighter who liked to dart in and out of range and whose default reaction to an unknown stimulus was to bounce back, then the kick would probably have missed. If he had been up against an aggressive wrestler who was looking for any opportunity to shoot in low, then he might have been taken down. However Cella was demonstrating a style of slowly stalking forward, blocking punches, and looking for an opening to counterstrike. This gave Hall the perfect opening for the setup he used.


This falls under this category for me.  It's the same thing said in one of my posts.  about the skill level of an opponent will have an effect on how freely you do your kicks.  An aggressive wrestler is of a skill level that makes standing on one leg not able to evade risker than someone who isn't used to dealing with a lot of kicks.  A good example would probably be someone like Jobo who would suggest putting most of the training into ground fighting.  So if that person only knows the fight on the ground and not on his feet then kicks will be a problem.  But if that same person had someone kick him until he could get in and smother the kick then it' becomes a different level.   

This isn't just a kicking thing.  When we fight someone of equal or higher skill level, we do not take the same risks that we would with someone of a lower skill level than us.  By lower, I don't mean can't fight.  Lower skill level could just simply mean that you are better at kicking than he is at defending and reading kicks.  He could be a higher skill level at boxing  if you decide to box him.   

Fighting southpaw is another example of how people can be skilled.   A south paw may be more familiar with fighting right hand fighters than his opponent is at fighting left hand fighter.   This would be another example of being outskilled.
But if they wrestle it may not make a difference.    So when I say outskilled, don't take it as an over all thing about an opponent or fighter.  If I can't fight on the ground then I'm outskilled in that area when compared to someone who does fight on the ground.  There's no other reality than that.  Which is why I do my best to not fight in people's areas of expertise.  It's better for me if you fight in mine.


JowGaWolf said:


> 5. The TKD's outskilled his opponent and as a result he was able to use those high kicks more freely


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## Buka (Dec 29, 2020)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Yeah, if someone only trains and spars in a ruleset where there are no negative consequences for a high kick, then they will lack the knowledge of how to set them up safely in a different context.



Great point. I believe that a style with high kicks and high kickers should have groin contact, not only as an accepted part of the curriculum, but as an _encouraged_ _part of the ruleset_. 

I always asked students, "Do you have a mirror on the back of a door or on a bureau or whatever? Fellas, next time you take a hot shower and are privately in front of a mirror, throw your best high kick while you're naked. What you will see is the very definition of open. "

And, yes, naked is key. You'll see the danger and won't soon forget it. Go ahead, give it a try.


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## Acronym (Dec 29, 2020)

[


JowGaWolf said:


> I knew it wouldn't eliminate the head kicks but it changes how freely one does the the high kicks especially if someone is targeting the groin or the standing leg.
> 
> I see this happen often with TKD fighters who fight against people who look for the high kick.  The first round the TKD person does his high kick and the majority of those high kicks result in being swept.  It takes about 5 or 6 sweeps before the TKD person starts backing out.   If you are getting punished because you are kicking high, then you are less willing to kick high.  If you get kicked in the groin 5 or 6 times when you kick high, then how likely are you going to kick high a 7th time.?



 You can sweep and kick a person in the groin regardless of him kicking


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 29, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> Watch any Muay Thai fight and you'll see very little of that type of bending over. Does it mean that you won't get KO'd by a kick? of course not, but what it does mean is that you won't get KO'd by bowing to a kick. And that means it's one less opportunity you are giving to your opponent to knock you out.


I'd point out that Muay Thai doesn't have the grappling threat you see in MMA. The different context changes the math (risk/reward) for almost every stance element.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 29, 2020)

Acronym said:


> [
> 
> 
> You can sweep and kick a person in the groin regardless of him kicking


That's not the issue.  The issue is the amount of risk.  I consider myself to be very good at sweeping people.  If you give me 2 options 
1. sweep you when standing on 2 legs
2. sweep you when standing on 1 legs

I prefer #2 because, when you stand on 1 leg you can't evade and don't have another leg that will be available to help you re-cover. When someone kicks, I know they are stuck to that one spot for a short period of time, which is my window of opportunity to advance and strike my opponent.  It's the one point of time where you can do very little to counter an incoming attack .  Some systems try to initiate a guard while kicking,  other's drop the hand. Having a guard up when kick covers one of the openings that are available.  So it gives me one less option.  Because I don't always have to attack the leg.  I may choose to go for your head with a punch instead of sweeping the leg or I may do both?  There are a lot of options when a person stands on one leg.    The slower a person kicks, the longer that person is on one leg, and the longer those options will be available.


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## Acronym (Dec 29, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> That's not the issue.  The issue is the amount of risk.  I consider myself to be very good at sweeping people.  If you give me 2 options
> 1. sweep you when standing on 2 legs
> 2. sweep you when standing on 1 legs
> 
> I prefer #2 because, when you stand on 1 leg you can't evade and don't have another leg that will be available to help you re-cover. When someone kicks, I know they are stuck to that one spot for a short period of time, which is my window of opportunity to advance and strike my opponent.  It's the one point of time where you can do very little to counter an incoming attack .  Some systems try to initiate a guard while kicking,  other's drop the hand. Having a guard up when kick covers one of the openings that are available.  So it gives me one less option.  Because I don't always have to attack the leg.  I may choose to go for your head with a punch instead of sweeping the leg or I may do both?  There are a lot of options when a person stands on one leg.    The slower a person kicks, the longer that person is on one leg, and the longer those options will be available.



I stand on one one leg when I throw a right hand as well, as do most people.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 29, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I stand on one one leg when I throw a right hand as well, as do most people.


???


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## Acronym (Dec 29, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> ???



Brain bugg.  I meant that I lean forward and only have support from the ball of the foot in my supporting leg, which makes me an easier target to sweep than when both feet are firmly placed on the ground


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## Deleted member 39746 (Dec 29, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> You can change the major tenents / tenants- just not the Tenets.   Sorry, couldn't resist with  "Semantics"  in thepost.



Closer to a typo.  I normally put a extra N in or the second N in the wrong place for that word thats the funny thing.    

I can semantics pretty well, thats how i know its tiresome, tidious and doesnt really settle or solve anything.    I only really bring it up if i think another words fits a situation better.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Dec 29, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> If you need to slip a punch then do so by moving your feet and not by weaving your head.



Wait your meant to move your legs to slip?  I normally literally move my head/torso when i do it.   I took to having habit of if i strike with my right hand i move my head to the left and the reverse with the left so i at least move it to avoid getting counter clocked.            Just tried it out, i normally move my torso with my head to either side, so that might translate to using my legs. 

Id argue that habit is better than keeping my head stationary.


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## Acronym (Dec 29, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> This is going to be a long one.  You posted some good videos.
> 
> That will all change once the fighters become skilled at taking advantage of the high kicks.  Then it will be back to the low kicks.
> 
> ...



Do you know how ridiculous you look with arm chair philosophy analysis of a fight? You weren't the one getting a kick thrown at you. You have NO IDEA how you would react unless you actually compete in there.


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## Acronym (Dec 29, 2020)

and since you are so hung up on sweeps. Here is a successful one. It didn't change the outcome of the fight


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## dvcochran (Dec 29, 2020)

Tony Dismukes said:


> What I think you might be missing is that the "errors" you see in the fighters getting knocked out aren't due to ignorance or lack of skill or training. They are "forced" errors induced by the attacker.
> 
> For example, why were several of the fighters caught leaning into the kicks? A common reason is that the attacker had faked them them out into expecting a punch from a different angle which that head movement would have been an appropriate response for. Another reason is that the attacker has just been dominating the wrestling and the defender is both tired and trying escape the clinch and regain their posture (but gets knocked out before they can fix their structure).
> 
> ...



Sir, that was eloquently said. I admire someone who can break down things so well. 

The documented raw processing time of a signal from the eyes, to the brain, resulted, and sent to an extremity is 3/10's of a second. The last time I looked this up was over a decade ago so possibly the computer/gamer age has made this slightly faster as you stated.

I like using the bleacher coach or armchair quarterback analogy. Most of the time it is much easier for a person to see and process an action from a distance. Ala, the bleacher coach. They always have a better answer to a players/fighters action and 'know' exactly what should have happened. Put this same person In the exact same encounter and they may not even be able to register what just happened to them. 
In other words, it is much easier to see a punch being thrown from 10 feet away versus one being thrown while coming out of a clinch. 

That is a great description of Uriah Hall's KO in you last paragraph. 
To add to the opponents quandary, the fake initiated a .3/sec mental process immediately followed by another .3/sec process. Assuming 100% efficiency (highly unlikely) that left the opponent roughly .15/sec to actually make a physical response. 
That is a very, very tall order. And usually where the armchair quarterbacks and bleacher coaches start chiming in. 

There is seldom one thing that makes a KO work. The chess match, speed, timing, fatigue, etc... all play a factor. 

For me, having knocked out others and also having been knocked out in competition puts this in a different light. It sure will give a person the yips for a while after being KO'ed.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 29, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Brain bugg.  I meant that I lean forward and only have support from the ball of the foot in my supporting leg, which makes me an easier target to sweep than when both feet are firmly placed on the ground


It depends on the type of sweep being used. back sweep probably won't work it. I would go with a stronger sweep or a foot hook.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 29, 2020)

Rat said:


> Wait your meant to move your legs to slip?  I normally literally move my head/torso when i do it.   I took to having habit of if i strike with my right hand i move my head to the left and the reverse with the left so i at least move it to avoid getting counter clocked.            Just tried it out, i normally move my torso with my head to either side, so that might translate to using my legs.
> 
> Id argue that habit is better than keeping my head stationary.


Yeah it's a complicated  method but it makes sense when done in the context of TMA techniques.  If I move my foot to the left, then my head and torso are off your centerline. If I shuffle left or right then I'm completely off your centerline.  if you only move your head then I can still strike your torso.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 29, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Do you know how ridiculous you look with arm chair philosophy analysis of a fight? You weren't the one getting a kick thrown at you. You have NO IDEA how you would react unless you actually compete in there.


Believe what you wish.  I spent an entire year showing that I can do what I claim and showing video of it.  won't be going through that again.  train your response and you'll do what you trained.


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## Acronym (Dec 29, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> Believe what you wish.  I spent an entire year showing that I can do what I claim and showing video of it.  won't be going through that again.  train your response and you'll do what you trained.



You did what exactly? It might come as a chock to your inflated ego but I have no idea who you are.


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## Acronym (Dec 29, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> train your response and you'll do what you trained.



Depends on how you train it. Have they tried to knock you out?


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 29, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Depends on how you train it. Have they tried to knock you out?


Some have tried. I've done hard sparring before and have been in fights. I've been kicked in the face before and I have been caught with my hands down, I've  been kneed, pinned,  and kicked in the groin.  I've thrown people before, including once in a real fight.

I've broken my finger twice in sparring, I've been dropped to my knees from kicks and punches to my stomach.  I haven't been slammed yet but I have been thrown.  I've been dazed as well.

The truth is that none of that matters to you and will not change your thoughts on what I've said


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## Acronym (Dec 29, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> Some have tried. I've done hard sparring before and have been in fights. I've been kicked in the face before and I have been caught with my hands down, I've  been kneed, pinned,  and kicked in the groin.  I've thrown people before, including once in a real fight.
> 
> I've broken my finger twice in sparring, I've been dropped to my knees from kicks and punches to my stomach.  I haven't been slammed yet but I have been thrown.  I've been dazed as well.
> 
> The truth is that none of that matters to you and will not change your thoughts on what I've said



Where did this take place? Most kung fu places that I know of are opposed to sparring, especially hard sparring.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 29, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Where did this take place? Most kung fu places that I know of are opposed to sparring, especially hard sparring.


As has been pointed out to you before, there's far more variation in MA than you're aware of.


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## Tony Dismukes (Dec 29, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> To me they are errors because of the way I've been trained. For example, It's forbidden to bend over like that for the same reason. This is stressed so much that other TMAs stress the importance of having an up right stance. If you need to duck, then lower your stance. If you need to slip a punch then do so by moving your feet and not by weaving your head.


I'd call it a matter of stylistic tradeoffs vs "errors."

You are correct that if you completely eschew boxing style head movement (bobbing, weaving, leaning to avoid head strikes), then you don't run the risk of inadvertently leaning into a  strike (typically a kick or knee, sometimes an uppercut) that you have misjudged. On the other hand, if you rely only on footwork and  blocks/parries to protect your head, then you will likely get hit with some punches that you might have avoided with head movement.

The professional MMA fighters who choose to include head movement in their repertoire are very aware of the dangers and the downsides of that tactic. They know that it caries more risk in MMA than in boxing, due to the possibility of kicks and knees. They use the tactic because they judge the rewards to be worth the risks. Not all top level MMA fighters use that kind of head movement, but some great champions make extensive use of it and have proven that it can be very effective even in that context.



JowGaWolf said:


> All I see when I spar is movement. Punching movement and kicking movements are different and the movement actually begins before the punch or kick shows up. For kicks the body shifts a certain way, For punches the body will shift weight another way. The best way to detect this movement is to learn how to look at things using the rods of your eye instead of the cones. The cones will give you detail but the rods will allow you to detect motion better than the cones. Sounds crazy but this is true.
> 
> A lot of times when you see me just taking hits from my sparring partner, it's because I'm training my eye sight to learn the movements. Think of it like this. When a big dog walks by you focus on it. That's the cones in your eye working. But when you catch small things like gnats and mosquitoes flying your cones are picking that up. Then when you switch to your cones to try to smash the mosquito or gnat then you will sometimes loose site of it. Then you'll switch back to your rods in your eyes to pick up movement. You may not be able to tell if it's a gnat or a mosquito you just know it's a bug flying.
> 
> ...





JowGaWolf said:


> This is why I don't process what kind of punch or what kind of kick is coming my way. The only thing I need to process is when you are about to do something and was it a weight shift for a punch or for a kick.
> I don't think what comes next because I don't have time to think about what technique I'm going to respond with. My sparring class address things like that. Again I know I'm probably making this sound easy but it's not. I had to train a lot of bad habits out and natural reactions and I wasn't able to get rid of them all.



Perhaps I didn't explain myself clearly, but this is all the same stuff I was talking about. When I talk about the limits of human reaction, I'm not talking about consciously thinking "oh, I see that he's throwing a spinning wheel kick, I should counter by moving in at a 45 degree angle and sweeping the support leg." I'm talking about the neurological limits of the human body to perceive that any sort of movement is taking place at all.

The way around those limits, as I mentioned earlier, is being able to read the opponent and process what sort of attack is coming before it actually begins. The methods you allude to (defocused gaze, peripheral vision, observing weight shifts, developing subconscious pattern recognition, etc) are standard fare among fighters for developing that ability.

You do, BTW, need to process what sort of punch or kick is coming. You may not do it consciously - there's generally not enough time for that against a fast, skilled fighter. The identification of what's coming happens via subconscious pattern recognition under the hood. If you can't distinguish between specific attacks, then you'll try to block a high punch and get hit in the gut. You'll try to parry a jab and get hit with a hook. You'll try to check a low kick and get kicked in the face. The training you describe is exactly the sort of thing which builds that sort of pattern recognition.

The flip side, of course, is for a fighter to be able to defeat his opponent's read on him. Feints, fakes, non-telegraphic movement, establishing patterns then switching them up, starting movements with multiple ending options - anything to prevent the opponent's brain from being able to process what is happening quickly enough to react until the attack is on the way and it's too late to react. Uriah Hall's spin kick was extremely fast, powerful, and pinpoint accurate, but the real deciding factor in his KO was that he won the battle of deception vs perception which prevented his opponent from ever seeing the kick coming.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 29, 2020)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I'd call it a matter of stylistic tradeoffs vs "errors."
> 
> You are correct that if you completely eschew boxing style head movement (bobbing, weaving, leaning to avoid head strikes), then you don't run the risk of inadvertently leaning into a  strike (typically a kick or knee, sometimes an uppercut) that you have misjudged. On the other hand, if you rely only on footwork and  blocks/parries to protect your head, then you will likely get hit with some punches that you might have avoided with head movement.
> 
> ...


It's a strategic battle over pattern recognition. Can I recognize your patterns (both patterns of techniques, and the pattern of movement that leads to a specific technique) and can you hide those patterns from me.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 29, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Depends on how you train it. Have they tried to knock you out?


  If you train to slip a punch then your natural response will eventually be to slip the punch.  If you don't train to slip a punch then your natural reaction won't be to slip a punch.

When a person isn't fighting for their life or fighting against someone who is trying to take their head off. Then that person should be training responses to known thing.  The more you train and repeat solutions, the more it becomes natural and it will eventually be the only response that you know and you will forget how you used to respond before you trained.

If you don't train your solutions with repetition, then they won't be there in an instant.   If you know an attack (of any type) then you can train a natural response to that attack either to evade or counter.  You may decide to do one solution over the other or you may do both.  This way when you are in the heat of a fight you don't have to think about what needs to be done. Your body will move on it's own as if you never had to think about it.





If you train in this way then it doesn't matter if someone is trying to knock you out.  Your response will be the same unless you are scared of getting hit, which is something totally different.  You can still get dazed by someone who isn't trying to knock your head off.  You can still get knocked out by someone who isn't trying to knock your head off.  Here's proof of that.

You'll see some of these guys not hitting their hardest still knocking people out.  So this assumption that you aren't at significant risk unless you are trying to "knock someone's head off"  is something I don't buy into.  I've sparred with too many people who knew how to drive their power to know that I still have to be careful


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## Acronym (Dec 29, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> As has been pointed out to you before, there's far more variation in MA than you're aware of.



I wrote "most".


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 29, 2020)

Tony Dismukes said:


> On the other hand, if you rely only on footwork and blocks/parries to protect your head, then you will likely get hit with some punches that you might have avoided with head movement.


This is true, nothing is going to be without a "payment of risk"  and the type of footwork that one should use is the one that helps them to safely set up the next technique.  The weaving that boxers do would make it difficult to flow into a kick, but it definitely flows into punches. 

Kung fu and other TMA's factor in other attacks and try to pick a middle ground, where it's not the best but it allows them to do the most things (which isn't always a benefit to be ok at more vs great in a few).



Tony Dismukes said:


> The professional MMA fighters who choose to include head movement in their repertoire are very aware of the dangers and the downsides of that tactic.


I'm going to say some do and there are those who don't. lol





There are others, just didn't feel like search those guys lol.






I couldn't resist.


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## Acronym (Dec 29, 2020)

And wrestlers duck into knees. They make mistakes all the time. It's called being human. 

I'm sure you're perfect though.


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## Tony Dismukes (Dec 29, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> This is true, nothing is going to be without a "payment of risk"  and the type of footwork that one should use is the one that helps them to safely set up the next technique.  The weaving that boxers do would make it difficult to flow into a kick, but it definitely flows into punches.
> 
> Kung fu and other TMA's factor in other attacks and try to pick a middle ground, where it's not the best but it allows them to do the most things (which isn't always a benefit to be ok at more vs great in a few).
> 
> ...


Rhonda's striking would have been better if she did have head movement. Unfortunately she had a coach who was blowing smoke up her *** about how good her boxing was. (This is the same coach who wouldn't lift a finger to help her in the gym until she became a big star and he saw a meal ticket.)


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## Tony Dismukes (Dec 29, 2020)

Here's a clip with some better examples of good head movement in MMA.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 29, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> It's a strategic battle over pattern recognition. Can I recognize your patterns (both patterns of techniques, and the pattern of movement that leads to a specific technique) and can you hide those patterns from me.


I actually trained pattern recognition in the sparring class.  I so trained what I refer to as "Pattern Programing"  which is where  I want you to recognize my pattern, so I can change it up on you.  So I do a pattern so that you'll learn it and then I change it up on you because I know you are expecting the pattern but you get something else.   So I'll program you to recognize my pattern and then exploit that when you learn it.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 29, 2020)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Rhonda's striking would have been better if she did have head movement. Unfortunately she had a coach who was blowing smoke up her *** about how good her boxing was. (This is the same coach who wouldn't lift a finger to help her in the gym until she became a big star and he saw a meal ticket.)


lol  she did have head movement . It was just all wrong.  But seriously, I would blame her coach for any issues that she actually had.  I actually liked her as a fighter, not because of her wins but because of the background she was coming from.  I like seeing that.  But man,  to this day I just shake my head in disappointment because so many people tried to warn her about her coach.  

I hate to see talent just wrecked like that.



Tony Dismukes said:


> Here's a clip with some better examples of good head movement in MMA.


  Yep good video of head movement.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 29, 2020)

Acronym said:


> and since you are so hung up on sweeps. Here is a successful one. It didn't change the outcome of the fight


So what's your point?  He didn't lose the fight because of the sweep.  I'm pretty sure that the at the point of losing the fight he wasn't doing a sweep.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 29, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I wrote "most".


Yes, you did.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 29, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> I actually trained pattern recognition in the sparring class.  I so trained what I refer to as "Pattern Programing"  which is where  I want you to recognize my pattern, so I can change it up on you.  So I do a pattern so that you'll learn it and then I change it up on you because I know you are expecting the pattern but you get something else.   So I'll program you to recognize my pattern and then exploit that when you learn it.


Professional fighters do that a lot. If you see that my response to your x,y combo is to sidestep and counter, you change your pattern to x,z to intercept my jaw as I sidestep.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 29, 2020)

This is a picture of my high kick being exploited.  The only thing that saved me, was the type of kick that I was doing and that we weren't going all out, and that my first kicking leg landed on his sweeping leg. It's a kung fu kick that invites the sweep and kicks with the second leg.  In theory, I was supposed to jump off my standing leg to counter with a kick.  The jump was supposed to keep me from being swept.  But notice that he's exploiting the kick in the same manner that I've been describing.





This was my first try at this technique. My miscalculation was not to ask.  "What if they sweep high? and I almost paid for it.  Here you can see that I'm screwed.  At the point I'm thinking that I just goofed and that the technique doesn't work as I was told.  I would never use this technique to bait a sweep since it's requires that I jump too high, to clear a high sweep.





This is me standing on the knee of his sweeping leg.  I didn't hit the ground and I didn't break his leg and I learned my lesson.




So I'm not sure why you think I'm perfect or why I'm the only one who sees how to deal with high kicks like that.  The guy that I'm sparring with is a black belt and I've seen videos of him nailing sweeps in competition, so this wasn't a fluke for him. Had his sweep been harder, I wouldn't have been able to recover.


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## stanly stud (Dec 31, 2020)

paitingman said:


> I was taught "traditional" Hapkido used mainly low kicks and no high kicks.


I tried Tae Kwon Do years ago but for me all that acrobatic stuff is no use in a crowded bar. Never tried Hapkido but i have seen it. Lots of throws & locks. looked good. so there is different variations in each school/ organization?


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## dvcochran (Dec 31, 2020)

stanly stud said:


> I tried Tae Kwon Do years ago but for me all that acrobatic stuff is no use in a crowded bar. Never tried Hapkido but i have seen it. Lots of throws & locks. looked good. so there is different variations in each school/ organization?


A very big YES. It is very hard to paint schools of the same style/name with the same brush. Curriculums change from school to school. Even within the same school, instructor quality or how they are received is different. Somewhat on a person to person basis I think.


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## stanly stud (Dec 31, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> A very big YES. It is very hard to paint schools of the same style/name with the same brush. Curriculums change from school to school. Even within the same school, instructor quality or how they are received is different. Somewhat on a person to person basis I think.


OK cheers... I knew a girl who was into Tae Kwon do...she had a great set of legs & @ss. Guess all the leg work...haha   but later she got hip problems as she told me she started at a very early age. was a black belt. Did the childrens training.
But yeah Hapkido looks good. Tae kwon do not my cup of tea.


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## dvcochran (Dec 31, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> This is a picture of my high kick being exploited.  The only thing that saved me, was the type of kick that I was doing and that we weren't going all out, and that my first kicking leg landed on his sweeping leg. It's a kung fu kick that invites the sweep and kicks with the second leg.  In theory, I was supposed to jump off my standing leg to counter with a kick.  The jump was supposed to keep me from being swept.  But notice that he's exploiting the kick in the same manner that I've been describing.
> View attachment 23452
> 
> This was my first try at this technique. My miscalculation was not to ask.  "What if they sweep high? and I almost paid for it.  Here you can see that I'm screwed.  At the point I'm thinking that I just goofed and that the technique doesn't work as I was told.  I would never use this technique to bait a sweep since it's requires that I jump too high, to clear a high sweep.
> ...


I jumping into the middle of the thread somewhat but there could be a lot of critique about your kick that allowed the sweep to work.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 31, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> I jumping into the middle of the thread somewhat but there could be a lot of critique about your kick that allowed the sweep to work.


It was the type of kick that I was doing.   It wasn't a round house.  It was a kick that was said to bait the sweep with one leg and you hop over the sweep with the other leg.

Critique the kick all you want, I'm going back to the drawing board on that.  It's 2 steps away from  me classifying as an exercises and not an actual kick to use in fighting.  It may train flexibility for other kicks but, avoid a sweep?   I just don't see how.  I'll try to find a video of the kick so you can know which one I was going for.

The technique uses a double kick, both which are done high in training, but from that one experience and video review.  Totally a bad idea.


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## dvcochran (Dec 31, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> It was the type of kick that I was doing.   It wasn't a round house.  It was a kick that was said to bait the sweep with one leg and you hop over the sweep with the other leg.
> 
> Critique the kick all you want, I'm going back to the drawing board on that.  It's 2 steps away from  me classifying as an exercises and not an actual kick to use in fighting.  It may train flexibility for other kicks but, avoid a sweep?   I just don't see how.  I'll try to find a video of the kick so you can know which one I was going for.
> 
> The technique uses a double kick, both which are done high in training, but from that one experience and video review.  Totally a bad idea.


Thanks, I would like to see the video and know what the kick is called.


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## oftheherd11 (Jan 2, 2021)

Inadvertent overpost.


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## oftheherd11 (Jan 2, 2021)

Acronym said:


> I quoted it.



From all the reading you claim to have done, how much have you found that is contradictory or clearly improbable?  You keep accusing others of cherry picking and yet that is clearly what you do.  You side-step what doesn't agree with what you want to argue and post it as fact..  

Even so, I feel sorry for you.  You have a drive to interact with people, but apparently no skills to do so with a hope of of having a normal useful conversation as men do.  You seem only to wish to be considered the only one full of knowledge and experience.  And in the way you go about it you continue to prove you are not.

I would hope you have some good qualities; most people do.  Show them.  You will probably come out with more respect than you know what to do with.


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