# Is there such thing as overworking?



## Ivan (Nov 15, 2019)

I constantly feel the need to train. It's like an itch I can't scratch but I want to know whether I should push it. For starters, here is the schedule I try to stick to every week:

MondayTuesdayWednesdayThursdayGym 0530-0645Gym 0630-0745Gym 0530-0645Gym 0530-0645Gym 1110-1300Boxing 1800-1910Run 1600-1730Gym 1130-1330Krav Maga 1900-2030Krav Maga 1900-2030
or TKD 1800-2000Gym 1900-2015
[TBODY]
[/TBODY]
FridaySaturdaySundayGym 0530-0645TKD 1000-1200Gym 1130-1300Olympic Weightlifting (College Activity) 1300-1345Gym 1230-1400Gym 1830-2000
[TBODY]
[/TBODY]This is supplemented by a steady core workout every two days, and stretching every two days to improve flexibility and core strength. The rest of my spare time will be distributed towards studying for college (UK version of college not university), food and sleep. I am a 17 year old and I'm wondering if I'm doing too  much? Every time I try to tell myself to chill I think of the stories of a Judoka who would train 12 hours a day - if he can do it, why can't I? Is this a reasonable program to stick to? I would be getting about 8 hours of sleep per day, good meals and cold showers to help with muscle relaxation and regeneration.


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## Flying Crane (Nov 15, 2019)

Overtraining can lead to burnout, and you might kill your interest altogether and you could end up injured.  It is a definite possibility.

Are you overtraining?  I dunno.  Everyone is different.  Can you keep up such a pace I definitely?  Probably not.  Eventually you will need to scale back your training due to burnout or exhaustion or injury or that other life obligations get in the way.  Eventually that just happens.  

When you are young, you can train a lot.  If you are passionate about it, then have at it.  Just be careful about what I’ve mentioned above.

As you get older and life does not allow you to train as much, you work to maintain what you built when you were younger.


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## Headhunter (Nov 15, 2019)

Of course there's such a thing as over training. These "stories" of judo guys. Who cares about those guys? Your not them. Everyone reacts differently. You have to decide that. But training every day you'll pick up some injury along the way. Why do you need to train so much? You making money of it? Is it your job? If the answer to that is no then you don't need to be training that much. You can sure but if you have one day where you don't do anything. It won't make any difference. You won't get majorly worse just because you have a day off. Enjoy like don't take it so serious . It's a hobby at the end of the day.

Also Tuesday gym 6:30-6:45....I very much doubt you missing 15 minute workout is going make any difference


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## Flying Crane (Nov 15, 2019)

Another thing: be careful that you don’t spread yourself too thin by doing too many different things, and you don’t progress in any of them.  Maybe lots of training would be better focused on fewer things, even one thing.

But only you can decide for you.  And your opinion on that may change as you get older.


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## Flying Crane (Nov 15, 2019)

And another thing:  make sure you have a life outside of your training.  You know: friends, dating, relationships, family, quality time spent with people in ways that isn’t connected to training, time for other interests.  Don’t end up with nothing outside of your training.  That can become a dull and lonely life.


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## Ivan (Nov 15, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> Of course there's such a thing as over training. These "stories" of judo guys. Who cares about those guys? Your not them. Everyone reacts differently. You have to decide that. But training every day you'll pick up some injury along the way. Why do you need to train so much? You making money of it? Is it your job? If the answer to that is no then you don't need to be training that much. You can sure but if you have one day where you don't do anything. It won't make any difference. You won't get majorly worse just because you have a day off. Enjoy like don't take it so serious . It's a hobby at the end of the day.
> 
> Also Tuesday gym 6:30-6:45....I very much doubt you missing 15 minute workout is going make any difference


Future job


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## Headhunter (Nov 15, 2019)

Ivan said:


> Future job


Doing what?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 15, 2019)

You only run one day a week, but run for 1.5 hours that day? Depending on the purpose, you might be better off running each day for less time, doing a mix of sprints and jog, since I'm guessing that currently it's mostly a jog. Unless running is already a part of your gym time too.


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## Kababayan (Nov 15, 2019)

If you feel up to it, keep training.  Flying Crane said it best: Everyone is different. Professional fighters train all day (albeit with rest breaks). Back in my fighting days I trained four to six hours a day and kept that pace for years.  Most of us included weight training in addition to our fight training. Still to this day, at 44 yrs old, I train Krav and Bjj consistently while still weight training.  Injuries take a little longer to heal as you get older, but just train until you don't want to anymore.  There are many great reasons to pace yourself, but don't do it just because everything thinks you need to.  Just enjoy what you are doing and stop when you aren't enjoying it anymore (or are injuring yourself).


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 15, 2019)

One thing to keep in mind is: listen to your body. If your knee is hurting, give it rest. If you're noticing soreness that a 17 year old shouldn't have, figure out why. And dont worry too much about taking a break for a week if you need to.

I didn't listen to that advice when i was in college, had a similar schedule (although a bit more focused), and have knee/shoulder issues still going on 5 years later.


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## MetalBoar (Nov 15, 2019)

Over training is a real thing but it's highly individual. It will even vary a lot for the same individual depending on things like emotional stress, changes in eating or sleeping habits, etc. Emotional stress can have a huge impact on physical recovery, I saw one client go from making no progress at all in the weight room to doubling just about every number in very short order when he switched from a miserable job where he was failing to his dream job. Obviously at 17 you can handle a larger volume and intensity of training than you'll likely tolerate at 57. The main thing to remember is that even if you can maintain a really heavy training load during a summer break you might not progress or even regress if you try to keep it up as you're approaching final exams or if you have a really heavy course load during a term.

The best way to know if you're over training is to take notes. It also happens to be really valuable for making progress in general. Document your workouts, know whether you're actually improving or just churning through your workouts but making little progress. If you aren't performing better next month than you are now you should be examining why things haven't improved. Contrary to what most people expect, if you aren't progressing it's more likely that you're over training than doing too little. If you don't have notes you can't experiment to see what works and what doesn't. You should also note how you feel. If you're finding that you're regularly tired, getting sick a lot, or dealing with minor injuries on a regular basis, these can all be a good sign that you're over training.

If you experience any of these things or you don't seem to be making regular progress, try reducing frequency or volume and then see if things improve. Your body isn't getting stronger when you're performing the exercise, that just sends a signal to your body that it's current capabilities aren't sufficient for the demands that are being placed upon it. Your body needs time and rest to actually make the changes necessary to adapt in response to that stimulus.

I can say more on this if you're interested but this hits the highlights.


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## Headhunter (Nov 15, 2019)

Also these stories of people training 12 hours a day. First if they are even true yeah great but what state are their bodies in in their old age? I'd be confident to bet that they would be full of injuries by then especially something like judo.

Also don't always believe these type of stories. There's a lot of exaggerated ego pushing BS stories thrown out there in all styles. When I hear stuff like that I take it with a grain of salt. If they did then okay but I'm not going use some old folk tales to compare myself to


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## dvcochran (Nov 15, 2019)

Ivan said:


> I constantly feel the need to train. It's like an itch I can't scratch but I want to know whether I should push it. For starters, here is the schedule I try to stick to every week:
> 
> MondayTuesdayWednesdayThursdayGym 0530-0645Gym 0630-0745Gym 0530-0645Gym 0530-0645Gym 1110-1300Boxing 1800-1910Run 1600-1730Gym 1130-1330Krav Maga 1900-2030Krav Maga 1900-2030
> or TKD 1800-2000Gym 1900-2015
> ...



You mentioned being at school so I assume there is a convenience to hitting the gym, MA classes, and track. I say go for it while you are young. Sounds like work and money are not big issues yet so take advantage of it. 
That said, here is my advise. Train with a specific purpose. It will give you purpose and help you find a need for balance. You don't want to wake up one day and randomly decide "I don't need to work out today. It can set a bad pattern of ups and downs. You are pretty spread out; lifting, running, boxing, Krav, & TKD, school, family? work?, etc... The workouts all compliment each other and it is not a necessity but which is your passion? Nothing wrong with being a generalist but what do you want to hang your hat on?
When I was training for the Olympics I trained 6 days/week 4-5 hour per day, and worked a full time job. So I get your pace and that "feeling" and drive. My only caution is to look down the road. See where/when the burnout is coming. Is surely will at least to some degree. Mine peaked after the trials and I all but quite training outside of TKD classes. In hindsight, that balanced my training with the rest of my life's schedule. But I had a lot of other commitments, which it doesn't sound like you have yet. 
Don't abuse or take advantage of anything, (parents, wife, friends, etc...). It will come back to haunt you. 

Specific to your schedule, I know you are young and stretching does not seem important, but it is The most important thing you should do IMHO. Do it dynamic pre-workout and static post workout. Make it a habit. You are doing several things only one day/week. Very little chance for muscle memory to take hold without more repetition. Meaning it will take longer to learn any one thing, which can lead to frustration and disappointment. 
Pick one style, work it until some level of proficiency, then consider picking up something else. 
The 12 hour/day Judoka were in a time when they had Nothing else to do. That is just not the world we live in today.


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## drop bear (Nov 15, 2019)

You should work hard and be exceptional at what you do. 

Don't listen to other people's excuses for being mediocre.


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## Buka (Nov 15, 2019)

Ivan, do you have instructors or trainers that are guiding you? Or are you just winging it?

And if you don't mind me asking, what do your folks think? If you do mind, that's okay, too.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 15, 2019)

drop bear said:


> You should work hard and be exceptional at what you do.
> 
> Don't listen to other people's excuses for being mediocre.


Not sure if this is addressed at me or others, but if it is to my posts-

I absolutely think Ivan should work hard and be exceptional at what he does. If this schedule works for him, that's great. If he isn't burned out and can fit more, than he should do that too. He just needs to pay attention to injuries and not work through them, since that's what causes issues. It happens in plenty of sports on the professional level too-someone plays/practices through injuries, not giving it time to heal, and that injury becomes career ending.


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## Ivan (Nov 16, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> You mentioned being at school so I assume there is a convenience to hitting the gym, MA classes, and track. I say go for it while you are young. Sounds like work and money are not big issues yet so take advantage of it.
> That said, here is my advise. Train with a specific purpose. It will give you purpose and help you find a need for balance. You don't want to wake up one day and randomly decide "I don't need to work out today. It can set a bad pattern of ups and downs. You are pretty spread out; lifting, running, boxing, Krav, & TKD, school, family? work?, etc... The workouts all compliment each other and it is not a necessity but which is your passion? Nothing wrong with being a generalist but what do you want to hang your hat on?
> When I was training for the Olympics I trained 6 days/week 4-5 hour per day, and worked a full time job. So I get your pace and that "feeling" and drive. My only caution is to look down the road. See where/when the burnout is coming. Is surely will at least to some degree. Mine peaked after the trials and I all but quite training outside of TKD classes. In hindsight, that balanced my training with the rest of my life's schedule. But I had a lot of other commitments, which it doesn't sound like you have yet.
> Don't abuse or take advantage of anything, (parents, wife, friends, etc...). It will come back to haunt you.
> ...


As much as I would love to concentrate on one style, Boxing only offers one session a week; Krav and TKD offer two but they overlap so I’m trying to do the two of Krav and the one from TKD that doesn’t overlap. Overall, I’m using boxing to train my punching, TKD for my kicks, and Krav for general self defence. Thanks for your input I’ll try to incorporate it


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## Ivan (Nov 16, 2019)

Buka said:


> Ivan, do you have instructors or trainers that are guiding you? Or are you just winging it?
> 
> And if you don't mind me asking, what do your folks think? If you do mind, that's okay, too.


I have instructors only for each individual style as in, a boxing coach etc. But this schedule I made myself. I want to push myself so I can be the best I can at this stuff, as I want to own my own dojo when I’m older.

As for my parents, they’re not really aware, but as long as I perform in school and don’t overwork myself, hence this post on my forum, they won’t mind, even though they would prefer if I had picked another sport to be passionate about.


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## dvcochran (Nov 16, 2019)

Ivan said:


> As much as I would love to concentrate on one style, Boxing only offers one session a week; Krav and TKD offer two but they overlap so I’m trying to do the two of Krav and the one from TKD that doesn’t overlap. Overall, I’m using boxing to train my punching, TKD for my kicks, and Krav for general self defence. Thanks for your input I’ll try to incorporate it


How are you going to train someone else if you are not proficient at the material? Would you want to train from the guy down the street that only practiced his style once or twice per week? Take the extra days and set your own practice schedule to work the material of one style, Krav in your example.


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## drop bear (Nov 16, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> How are you going to train someone else if you are not proficient at the material? Would you want to train from the guy down the street that only practiced his style once or twice per week? Take the extra days and set your own practice schedule to work the material of one style, Krav in your example.



If you can box kickbox or wrestle well you are automatically going to be a thousand times better at Krav.






And this is because to perform any of the concepts Krav teaches you have to be able to move around an oponant in real time.

Without this important element nothing you learn really works.


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## Headhunter (Nov 17, 2019)

Ivan said:


> I have instructors only for each individual style as in, a boxing coach etc. But this schedule I made myself. I want to push myself so I can be the best I can at this stuff, as I want to own my own dojo when I’m older.
> 
> As for my parents, they’re not really aware, but as long as I perform in school and don’t overwork myself, hence this post on my forum, they won’t mind, even though they would prefer if I had picked another sport to be passionate about.


Open your own dojo doing what? You're learning a bunch of different styles and not committing to one. So your getting little drips of information and not having time to self train one style so your doing TKD but because your doing everything else you don't have time to practice your forms or anything else. Cross training is fine for yourself but doing it to open a school isn't necessarily the best option. Also you do realise you open a dojo you won't be able to train like that anymore because you'll be teaching and unless you are extremely lucky you'll also have to contend with a real job as martial art teaching is in most cases not a sustainable income. A lot of teachers end up paying out of their own pocket to keep their doors open. Also if you want your own place you need teaching experience. Doing gym sessions isn't going to make you a good teacher you need to get that experience assisting classes from an instructor


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## Ivan (Nov 17, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> Open your own dojo doing what? You're learning a bunch of different styles and not committing to one. So your getting little drips of information and not having time to self train one style so your doing TKD but because your doing everything else you don't have time to practice your forms or anything else. Cross training is fine for yourself but doing it to open a school isn't necessarily the best option. Also you do realise you open a dojo you won't be able to train like that anymore because you'll be teaching and unless you are extremely lucky you'll also have to contend with a real job as martial art teaching is in most cases not a sustainable income. A lot of teachers end up paying out of their own pocket to keep their doors open. Also if you want your own place you need teaching experience. Doing gym sessions isn't going to make you a good teacher you need to get that experience assisting classes from an instructor



Luckily, I am only 17. Do you come on this forum with the intent to **** on everyone’s ideas and dreams?

I have years maybe decades until I get to where I want to be, and frankly, you haven’t enough idea about what exactly I want to teach at said dojo to be able to provide any valuable input. As for the gym sessions, I’ve never heard of any proficient martial artists not spend time on conditioning.


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## Headhunter (Nov 17, 2019)

Ivan said:


> Luckily, I am only 17. Do you come on this forum with the intent to **** on everyone’s ideas and dreams?
> 
> I have years maybe decades until I get to where I want to be, and frankly, you haven’t enough idea about what exactly I want to teach at said dojo to be able to provide any valuable input. As for the gym sessions, I’ve never heard of any proficient martial artists not spend time on conditioning.


Lol I'm giving you my opinion if you don't want to listen I don't care.

I've spent a lot of time teaching and running classes through various styles and you say you have to be the best. Well okay but just so you know just because you are a good practitioner doesn't mean you'll automatically be a good teacher. There's plenty of exceptionally good martial artists who are terrible teachers and likewise there are plenty of average practitioners who are amazing teachers. 

The best way to be a good teacher is to teach. Teaching a technique is completely different to doing the technique. So yes do your training do whatever you want to do. But there's more to teaching than just being in good physical condition and knowing how to do the moves. Hence the reason not everyone can do it, you want torunament a club go ask an instructor to help assist classes to get that experience.


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## drop bear (Nov 17, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> Lol I'm giving you my opinion if you don't want to listen I don't care.
> 
> I've spent a lot of time teaching and running classes through various styles and you say you have to be the best. Well okay but just so you know just because you are a good practitioner doesn't mean you'll automatically be a good teacher. There's plenty of exceptionally good martial artists who are terrible teachers and likewise there are plenty of average practitioners who are amazing teachers.
> 
> The best way to be a good teacher is to teach. Teaching a technique is completely different to doing the technique. So yes do your training do whatever you want to do. But there's more to teaching than just being in good physical condition and knowing how to do the moves. Hence the reason not everyone can do it, you want torunament a club go ask an instructor to help assist classes to get that experience.



Not really. I Would suggest doing a teaching course so that he has the right fundamentals. Which you can access pretty easily one way or another.

Maybe a learning to run a small business course as well while he is there.

And at least he will walk away with a real qualification at the end of it.

Which is as people may have noticed the same approach I advocate in martial arts. Learn it right and then work hard at it.


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## jobo (Nov 17, 2019)

Ivan said:


> I constantly feel the need to train. It's like an itch I can't scratch but I want to know whether I should push it. For starters, here is the schedule I try to stick to every week:
> 
> MondayTuesdayWednesdayThursdayGym 0530-0645Gym 0630-0745Gym 0530-0645Gym 0530-0645Gym 1110-1300Boxing 1800-1910Run 1600-1730Gym 1130-1330Krav Maga 1900-2030Krav Maga 1900-2030
> or TKD 1800-2000Gym 1900-2015
> ...


yes its possible to over train to the point you end up with exhaustion, but not on that schedule. people work 60 hour weeks moving heavy things about and don't end up collapsing through exhaustion..
The consideration you need to make is are you improving your fitness? techniques. If the answer is no, then cutting back on some things to concentrate on others and o having more rest in between might be the answer.

The biggest advantage professional athletes have is they can afford to spend a significant amount of time doing precisely nothing, in between working hard, because that's when all the good things happen to your body


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 17, 2019)

I find it astonishing that people seem to think a 17 year old should only be focusing on one martial art if he plans to open a dojo. At 17, he's probably got multiple years before opening one, and the things that will make it successful have a lot more to do with stuff like what @drop bear was suggesting...some business classes, teaching classes, and possibly  sports medicine course added in for good measure. 

As for martial art, he can change his mind about his primary martial art 3 times in the next few years, and still train it for ten years before he's 30. Or he can continue with all 3 if he wants. I'm pretty sure each dojo I've been too, even ones devoted to one style, the head instructor had trained in at least 3 styles at some point or another. And, again, he's 17. This is like telling someone not only should you have your major picked out, but you should know what subset of that major you should be focusing on, and ignore any electives or anything not related to that once you start college.


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## Ivan (Nov 18, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> I find it astonishing that people seem to think a 17 year old should only be focusing on one martial art if he plans to open a dojo. At 17, he's probably got multiple years before opening one, and the things that will make it successful have a lot more to do with stuff like what @drop bear was suggesting...some business classes, teaching classes, and possibly  sports medicine course added in for good measure.
> 
> As for martial art, he can change his mind about his primary martial art 3 times in the next few years, and still train it for ten years before he's 30. Or he can continue with all 3 if he wants. I'm pretty sure each dojo I've been too, even ones devoted to one style, the head instructor had trained in at least 3 styles at some point or another. And, again, he's 17. This is like telling someone not only should you have your major picked out, but you should know what subset of that major you should be focusing on, and ignore any electives or anything not related to that once you start college.


Thanks very much; you have summarised my feelings and thoughts on those opinions perfectly.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 18, 2019)

Ivan said:


> Thanks very much; you have summarised my feelings and thoughts on those opinions perfectly.


The biggest thing at your age is passion. As long as you've got that, keep doing what you're doing. If you lose that feel free to message me or make a post on here about it, but as it is I don't see a reason for you to back off anything. Again though, the one exception is if you start feeling a joint/limb hurting, figure out what's going on so that doesn't turn into a permanent injury.


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## Flying Crane (Nov 18, 2019)

Ivan said:


> As much as I would love to concentrate on one style, Boxing only offers one session a week; Krav and TKD offer two but they overlap so I’m trying to do the two of Krav and the one from TKD that doesn’t overlap. Overall, I’m using boxing to train my punching, TKD for my kicks, and Krav for general self defence. Thanks for your input I’ll try to incorporate it


Do you spend any time outside of your classes, just practicing what you have learned?  Or is class time the only time you train martial art?

Taking ownership of your training and putting in the time and the work outside of classes is key to gaining skills.  If you only spend an hour or two in a class, once or twice a week for each style, it’s going to be a slow and frustrating road to skill development.  That’s where too much cross training can get in the way: you get spread too thin and don’t have enough time or energy to devote to any of it.  None of it blossoms.  It takes more than just time in class, if that is only once or twice a week.   I think that’s what the other folks are trying to caution you about.

Training multiple systems typically works best when you are already well grounded in one before you add another or a third.  If you are essentially a beginner and you are trying to train three systems at the same time, i think that is a recipe for frustration and possibly failure.  

Give it some thought.


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## drop bear (Nov 18, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> Do you spend any time outside of your classes, just practicing what you have learned?  Or is class time the only time you train martial art?
> 
> Taking ownership of your training and putting in the time and the work outside of classes is key to gaining skills.  If you only spend an hour or two in a class, once or twice a week for each style, it’s going to be a slow and frustrating road to skill development.  That’s where too much cross training can get in the way: you get spread too thin and don’t have enough time or energy to devote to any of it.  None of it blossoms.  It takes more than just time in class, if that is only once or twice a week.   I think that’s what the other folks are trying to caution you about.
> 
> ...



 That is not the case. People can train multiple systems from the get go with no problems.

If frustration is a stumbling block then any new skill is basically off the table.

This is the fundamental issue with "so long as you are having fun" argument.

You are not do training to avoid work, or frustration. You train so that you can overcome these issues.


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## Buka (Nov 18, 2019)

Study a lot of styles....hmmm.....not sure if that's a good idea. Best to stick to just one source of input, because, you know, that place is probably the most knowledgeable Kwai Chang Caine walk the earth dojo for thousands of miles.

And if you go study a lot of different ways to fight, train and teach you'll get confused, befuddled and flummoxed by the input alone and it might take you ten years to actually figure out what's what instead of nine years and eleven months.

There are a bunch of us here who've been doing this Martial stuff for a long time, we know what we're talking about. And we all move the exact same way, we all train the exact same way, we all fight the exact same way, we all teach the exact same way. We are one hundred percent interchangeable.

And, of course, our particular art is by far the best. It is the one for you. Any other Art will not help you. Any other method of training is a waste of your time. Because WE ARE GUMBY, DAMN IT, WE ARE SUPREME!

EDIT - But if you ain't enjoying it, if you ain't having fun working your butt off - it will never work.


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## spidersam (Nov 19, 2019)

I’d support this! But only if 3 conditions are met:

1. Do your school work
2. Eat enough 
3. Sleep enough

Always listen to your body. If you feel like you need a break today, but your mind wants to push through it, take the break.


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## spidersam (Nov 19, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> I find it astonishing that people seem to think a 17 year old should only be focusing on one martial art if he plans to open a dojo. At 17, he's probably got multiple years before opening one, and the things that will make it successful have a lot more to do with stuff like what @drop bear was suggesting...some business classes, teaching classes, and possibly  sports medicine course added in for good measure.



I second this. If you’re planning to be an instructor, start working with people. Focus on your presentations in class, speaking to audiences. Try babysitting, tutoring other students. The best martial artist in the world could be the worst instructor if he doesn’t know how to communicate and work with people.


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