# More criminals getting choked out by triangles.



## drop bear (Sep 5, 2015)




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## Tez3 (Sep 5, 2015)

It doesn't play.


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 5, 2015)

Mugger caught by female MMA fighter.


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## Hanzou (Sep 5, 2015)

Ironically, the Japanese Judoka who created the triangle said that it wasn't good for self defense purposes because someone could bite down on the groin while being choked.

I guess they didn't count on women using it.


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## drop bear (Sep 5, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Mugger caught by female MMA fighter.



I think mine works now as well.


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## Chrisoro (Sep 6, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Ironically, the Japanese Judoka who created the triangle said that it wasn't good for self defense purposes because someone could bite down on the groin while being choked.



I have a hard time understanding how that could be possible even in a non-reverse triangle, considering the placement of the inside arm. And even when setting it up, before you get the arm across, the groin is still seems generally quite well protected because of the distance between his jaw and your groin, and his lack of manouverability as long as you controll his posture.








Edit:
Just curious, who is the judoka that is supposedly credited with the creation of the the sankaku-jime? I have seen it illustrated in several old judo books, but I have never seen it credited to a single individual.


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## Hanzou (Sep 6, 2015)

Chrisoro said:


> I have a hard time understanding how that could be possible even in a non-reverse triangle, considering the placement of the inside arm. And even when setting it up, before you get the arm across, the groin is still seems generally quite well protected because of the distance between his jaw and your groin, and his lack of manouverability as long as you controll his posture.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Two individuals actually; Tsunetane Oda and Kanemitsu Yachibei Hyoe in the early 20th century.


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## ballen0351 (Sep 7, 2015)

Interesting thing happened today at work a deputy was trying to make an arrest in an apartment.  This deputy is a very good officer and also a brown belt inBJJ.  He got attacked by the family as he was trying to make,the arrest.  He was able to hit his emergency button on his radio before it was taken from him and thrown across the room.  I just happened to be around the corner and got there very quickly.  I run in he's got 1 person in a triangle and another guy in a modified a rear naked choke.  He was using their bodies to block the blows from the other family members.  Lucky for him we got there fast and the other attackers were older woman and young kids.  But as I think now,that it's,over and everyone is ok it was funny to walk in and see him in the middle of the floor with bodies in top of him flailing around and pretty impressive he was able to keep control of two people at the same time for a short period of time


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## drop bear (Sep 7, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> Interesting thing happened today at work a deputy was trying to make an arrest in an apartment.  This deputy is a very good officer and also a brown belt inBJJ.  He got attacked by the family as he was trying to make,the arrest.  He was able to hit his emergency button on his radio before it was taken from him and thrown across the room.  I just happened to be around the corner and got there very quickly.  I run in he's got 1 person in a triangle and another guy in a modified a rear naked choke.  He was using their bodies to block the blows from the other family members.  Lucky for him we got there fast and the other attackers were older woman and young kids.  But as I think now,that it's,over and everyone is ok it was funny to walk in and see him in the middle of the floor with bodies in top of him flailing around and pretty impressive he was able to keep control of two people at the same time for a short period of time



I once had a guy in a knee ride ankle lock. Cop has come in and thrown the handcuffs on me. And I am like dude what have I done wrong?

The answer was I had done nothing. He just couldn't figure out whose arm belonged to who.

Fights are funny that way sometimes.


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## ballen0351 (Sep 7, 2015)

drop bear said:


> I once had a guy in a knee ride ankle lock. Cop has come in and thrown the handcuffs on me. And I am like dude what have I done wrong?
> 
> The answer was I had done nothing. He just couldn't figure out whose arm belonged to who.
> 
> Fights are funny that way sometimes.


Yeah once there is a pile of bodies it can be hard to pick out the right arm or leg.


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## Koshiki (Sep 19, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Ironically, the Japanese Judoka who created the triangle said that it wasn't good for self defense purposes because someone could bite down on the groin while being choked.
> 
> I guess they didn't count on women using it.



Two things.

1. From conversations with women, I don't think either gender is a fan of bites to their groin. 

2. Not a fan of triangles from guard etc, but rear triangles are one of my favorite ground chokes for self-defense, because it's so easy to get up from, assuming you have reasonably strong legs. (I mean, I suck at _doing_ them, but conceptually, I'm a fan!

(Ha, when I was a teenager, a couple friends and I were big fans of, from stand-up, vaulting onto the other guys shoulders, triangling, and then using your weight to topple the other guy. Because THAT's sure a high-percentage technique, necessary in every Womens' S.D. course... We called it the "Totem Pole" for obvious reasons!)


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## drop bear (Sep 19, 2015)

Zack Cart said:


> Two things.
> 
> 1. From conversations with women, I don't think either gender is a fan of bites to their groin.
> 
> ...


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## Koshiki (Sep 19, 2015)

drop bear said:


>



Nice! Although, what we were doing wasn't a flying triangle. Being lightweight teens, we were actually jumping up, usually off a mid-level kick, sitting up on the other guys shoulders, like shoulder-piggy-back, and then flopping over backwards, pulling him over backwards. 

Flying triangle is probably about 20 times more effective, higher percentage of success!


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## Buka (Sep 20, 2015)

I know this has nothing what-so-ever to do with the thread.....other than the same language, a criminal element and a fighting technique. But I didn't know where else to put it. Future Soccer Mom I guess.


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## Hanzou (Sep 21, 2015)

Zack Cart said:


> Two things.
> 
> 1. From conversations with women, I don't think either gender is a fan of bites to their groin.
> 
> ...



If you're having trouble hitting triangles from guard, try Ryan Hall's stomp and curl method. I think you can find it on YT. Changed my guard game for the better, and made my triangles a potent weapon.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 21, 2015)

I will have to second taking a look at the Stomp and Curl Method developed by Ryan Hall.  While I do not use it all the time it has worked for me as well.


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## Jaysonrd (Sep 22, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> Interesting thing happened today at work a deputy was trying to make an arrest in an apartment.  This deputy is a very good officer and also a brown belt inBJJ.  He got attacked by the family as he was trying to make,the arrest.  He was able to hit his emergency button on his radio before it was taken from him and thrown across the room.  I just happened to be around the corner and got there very quickly.  I run in he's got 1 person in a triangle and another guy in a modified a rear naked choke.  He was using their bodies to block the blows from the other family members.  Lucky for him we got there fast and the other attackers were older woman and young kids.  But as I think now,that it's,over and everyone is ok it was funny to walk in and see him in the middle of the floor with bodies in top of him flailing around and pretty impressive he was able to keep control of two people at the same time for a short period of time



Glad to hear he is ok and wasn't injured.  Great way of using the their bodies as shields.  This isn't of an officer using a triangle, but this officer does a good job of controlling this protestor on Hwy 70 near my house here in the St. Louis area.  

Jermaine Andre Response To Officer Slamming - Attack Back Self Defense | Facebook

I think the protestor got off easy on this one.


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## Koshiki (Sep 23, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> If you're having trouble hitting triangles from guard, try Ryan Hall's stomp and curl method. I think you can find it on YT. Changed my guard game for the better, and made my triangles a potent weapon.



Great video, thanks!

I meant more that I like being more mobile and vertical, and that triangles from guard are more difficult to get back on your feet from in a split second, when compared to reverse triangles. Just my own personal preference, though...


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## Hanzou (Sep 23, 2015)

Zack Cart said:


> Great video, thanks!
> 
> I meant more that I like being more mobile and vertical, and that triangles from guard are more difficult to get back on your feet from in a split second, when compared to reverse triangles. Just my own personal preference, though...



Understood. I personally prefer the classic triangle because you can attack the arm if the choke fails. My avatar is an example of what I'm talking about.

That said, I can understand why some would view that as a vulnerable position.


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## Koshiki (Sep 23, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Understood. I personally prefer the classic triangle because you can attack the arm if the choke fails. My avatar is an example of what I'm talking about.
> 
> That said, I can understand why some would view that as a vulnerable position.



Definitely. Again, if you've already developed areas of expertise, it's nearly always in your best interests to utilize them.


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## drop bear (Oct 2, 2015)

Zack Cart said:


> Great video, thanks!
> 
> I meant more that I like being more mobile and vertical, and that triangles from guard are more difficult to get back on your feet from in a split second, when compared to reverse triangles. Just my own personal preference, though...



If you couldn't get the sweep. Let go and stand up.


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## Koshiki (Oct 2, 2015)

drop bear said:


> If you couldn't get the sweep. Let go and stand up.



Not being a ground fighter, I might be using terms incorrectly, but this is more or less what I was meaning by a triangle from guard. I'm saying that say you are the guy in the gi, and realize you need to be vertical ASAP, it's far easier for the guy in the t-shirt to keep you there for a few seconds until your head gets stomped. intentionally or just by struggling out of panic. (Steven something-or-other?)







My point being that, from my personal background of preferring to be on my feet, I am much more capable at getting back n my feet swiftly from a triangle from some form of back control, at east in my experience, more like in this second image.






So yeah, I've probably got the terminology all screwy from a BJJ perspective, but these are the chokes/positions I'm referring to. I feel a heck of a lot safer in the second version, both from the guy getting choked and from anyone else who might be looking for a chance to play kickball with me ol' noggin!

But also, if you've pulled guard, (forgive me if this is a noob question) but how do you just "let go and stand up?" It may be a dominant position especially in a grappling-only rule-set, but for most of us non-grapplers, "letting go and then just standing up" relies _either_ on the guy just letting us through good will, or on otherwise disentangling yourself first, either of which takes valuable seconds...


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## drop bear (Oct 2, 2015)

Zack Cart said:


> Not being a ground fighter, I might be using terms incorrectly, but this is more or less what I was meaning by a triangle from guard. I'm saying that say you are the guy in the gi, and realize you need to be vertical ASAP, it's far easier for the guy in the t-shirt to keep you there for a few seconds until your head gets stomped. intentionally or just by struggling out of panic. (Steven something-or-other?)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Koshiki (Oct 7, 2015)

In both cases, yes, you can get up swiftly, _if the other guy isn't holding on to you.
_
In the first video, the relevant one with the Triangle, I agree and acknowledge that you can do things from there, including standing up. You, as a grappler, have to know however, that if the other guy holds on, you can't just leap to your feet and be mobile in the fraction of a second you might have to do that, when need calls.

In the second video, he just stands up, yes, but what if the other guy hugged and held on? What if he grabbed his shirt, or shorts, or got grips on his wrists? Perhaps not what a skilled grappler might do, but certainly what a lot of untrained people do on the ground. That's my point.

I agree that from both positions _there are things you can do_. I'm just saying that leaping to your feet in half a second when his buddy, girlfriend, whoever runs up is frequently not one of them.

Again, my own personal bias, but I prefer not to be in a position where the other guy can, for even one or two seconds, control me and keep me in one place. I'm not saying don't pull Guard, I'm not saying don't go for triangles, I'm saying that in my experience the rear Triangle leaves you more mobile should you need to disengage and leap away, and is therefore, in my view, preferable.


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## drop bear (Oct 7, 2015)

Zack Cart said:


> In both cases, yes, you can get up swiftly, _if the other guy isn't holding on to you.
> _
> In the first video, the relevant one with the Triangle, I agree and acknowledge that you can do things from there, including standing up. You, as a grappler, have to know however, that if the other guy holds on, you can't just leap to your feet and be mobile in the fraction of a second you might have to do that, when need calls.
> 
> ...



The other guy is trying to hold you down. He is not going to just let you up regardless. Neither were escapes designed for an unresisting oponant. 

If you are saying you would prefer to be knee riding the guys neck than in guard. Well yes that is correct.


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## Koshiki (Oct 7, 2015)

drop bear said:


> If you are saying you would prefer to be knee riding the guys neck than in guard. Well yes that is correct.



Haha, well yes, I'd have to agree with that, as I'm sure nearly anyone would!

But no, what I keep trying to say, clearly, is _specifically about triangle chokes and nothing else!!!
_
The quintessential triangle, as shown in the first photo I posted, is somewhat limiting to your movement, regardless of whether or not the choke is working out for you.


Zack Cart said:


>



The rear triangle, as shown in the second photo I posted, is somewhat less limiting to your ability to swiftly disengage.


Zack Cart said:


>



That's all I'm trying to say. Yes, I agree triangles are effective. However, in terms of self-defense-related mobility, I think some triangles are better options than others. That is literally my entire point.

It's easier to stand up swiftly from the triangle shown in the second photo than it is from that shown in the first. That's literally the only thing I'm trying to say!


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 7, 2015)

Zack Cart said:


> But also, if you've pulled guard, (forgive me if this is a noob question) but how do you just "let go and stand up?" It may be a dominant position especially in a grappling-only rule-set, but for most of us non-grapplers, "letting go and then just standing up" relies _either_ on the guy just letting us through good will, or on otherwise disentangling yourself first, either of which takes valuable seconds...


Disengaging in order to stand up is an important skill which requires practice. How hard it is to execute and how long it takes depends a lot on your opponent's skill and actions. My favorite ground position for self-defense is the knee ride, because it's the easiest one to quickly disengage from.


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 7, 2015)

Zack Cart said:


> Haha, well yes, I'd have to agree with that, as I'm sure nearly anyone would!
> 
> But no, what I keep trying to say, clearly, is _specifically about triangle chokes and nothing else!!!
> _
> ...


The rear triangle actually has a number of advantages over the standard triangle. Being marginally easier to disengage from is just one of them.

Generally, though, you don't get to choose. The situation will usually allow just one, not a choice of either.


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## Koshiki (Oct 7, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> The rear triangle actually has a number of advantages over the standard triangle. Being marginally easier to disengage from is just one of them.



Agreed. Again, from my personal bias and preference and training for stand-up and mobility, ease of disengagement is a much larger factor than it is for a ground fighter, so even a small margin of ease of disengagement, say a half second difference on average, is enough to sway me. This is for all the usual reasons; suddenly realizing the guy you're on the ground with is armed, suddenly realizing he has friends, suddenly realizing your wife is in trouble with said friends 10 feet away, and simply the fact that I suck at ground fighting but am pretty decent at stand-up.

I like to stand up fast, and that has a huge influence on my personal preferences for ground fighting, if I'm forced to be there.



Tony Dismukes said:


> Generally, though, you don't get to choose. The situation will usually allow just one, not a choice of either.



Completely agreed. I'm just saying that in situations where the rear triangle is available, I like it; but that given situations where the standard is available, I'd generally rather go for something else.


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## drop bear (Oct 8, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> The rear triangle actually has a number of advantages over the standard triangle. Being marginally easier to disengage from is just one of them.
> 
> Generally, though, you don't get to choose. The situation will usually allow just one, not a choice of either.



Can you hit that other triangle from guard? Or are we talking about submissions that start from different places.


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## Hanzou (Oct 8, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Can you hit that other triangle from guard? Or are we talking about submissions that start from different places.



The rear Triangle? 

Nope. That one comes out of back mount.


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## Koshiki (Oct 8, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Can you hit that other triangle from guard? Or are we talking about submissions that start from different places.


Well, perhaps there is some wizard out there who can, but as for us mortals, they start in very different places...


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 8, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Can you hit that other triangle from guard? Or are we talking about submissions that start from different places.





Hanzou said:


> The rear Triangle?
> 
> Nope. That one comes out of back mount.





Zack Cart said:


> Well, perhaps there is some wizard out there who can, but as for us mortals, they start in very different places...



Actually, I've been working on an entry to the rear triangle starting from guard lately. I'm a long way from mastering it, but I've pulled it off in rolling a few times.(One time against another black belt, so it wasn't just dumb luck.)

That said, 90-95% of the time the back triangle and the regular triangle do start from different places.


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## Koshiki (Oct 8, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Actually, I've been working on an entry to the rear triangle starting from guard lately.



If you get it figured out, I'm sure there are many here who would be pretty interested in a video clip, if time and opportunity and desire for filming should come together...


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 8, 2015)

Zack Cart said:


> If you get it figured out, I'm sure there are many here who would be pretty interested in a video clip, if time and opportunity and desire for filming should come together...


Check out Ryan Hall's Triangle DVD series. It's one of the options he shows for when you have the triangle setup position but your opponent is hiding his arm.


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## Koshiki (Oct 8, 2015)

Cool. I've seen some of his stuff, and it's always of the highest caliber. Thanks!

The way you phrased it, I thought you were referencing a new invention of your own.


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## Buka (Oct 8, 2015)

Zack, I love stand up striking, too. But don't discount striking from that first triangle pic _while_ you're repositioning and scrambling back up. Hooks, elbows and slaps while scrambling work really well.


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 8, 2015)

Zack Cart said:


> Cool. I've seen some of his stuff, and it's always of the highest caliber. Thanks!
> 
> The way you phrased it, I thought you were referencing a new invention of your own.


Nah, if I were that slick I'd be selling my own videos.


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## Koshiki (Oct 8, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Nah, if I were that slick I'd be selling my own videos.



Might as well do it anyway. My mum got my dad some "street fight self defense" vids when I was a kid. If that guy could get away with the crap he did, I'm sure you could do many times better than him! Just make sure to pose in front of a lot of mildly grungy ally-way brickwork...



Buka said:


> Zack, I love stand up striking, too. But don't discount striking from that first triangle pic _while_ you're repositioning and scrambling back up. Hooks, elbows and slaps while scrambling work really well.



Very true. The only reason any of my half-***ed groundwork isn't completely ineffective is because I tend to go all cat-in-the-bath when I'm down there.


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