# looking to reasearch my own lineage - need some help



## swhitney222 (Sep 21, 2015)

Hi Everyone,

I am looking to do some research in finding out were my own line or lineage came from. *definitely not doing this to put down or discredit anyone.* I had a teacher that after 15 years of training with him and making it up the ranks of 2nd Black belt (in his version of American Kenpo not Ed Parkers Kenpo) I was banished. I never knew who taught him in what he said was American Kenpo. so if anyone knows of who taught *Mike Agbay (3rd degree black belt in American Kenpo)* his school is MJA Martial Arts in Sturbridge MA. I know he grew up in the Worcester MA area. We are not on speaking terms unfortunately and he would not tell anyone who taught him or how he acquired his rank. *So like I said this is not to discredit or put down him, but to find out the history of were my own training originated from.*

Thanks

Shawn


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## hoshin1600 (Sep 22, 2015)

Hey neighbor!!  Send me a private message if you like. We live in the same town.


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## tshadowchaser (Sep 23, 2015)

There have been school in Worcester since the early 70's  so someone in that area should be able to help you.  Try an article in a local paper or go visit a few schools in town and ask if anyone knows the man and his background.
Just out of my being curious   why where you banished


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 23, 2015)

tshadowchaser said:


> Just out of my being curious   why where you banished



I wondered this myself. It's the sort of thing I've _*heard*_ about, but despite having been involved in a number of different schools, I've never actually seen it happen.
The closest I've seen was us putting a blue belt back in a white belt because of behavior issues. When the issues were resolved, he got his belt back.
And we've got a 1st Geup now who will not be allowed to promote to Chodanbo until a few behavioral issues are resolved.
But banning?


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## KenpoDave (Sep 23, 2015)

Check with Kenpo Joe Rebelo.


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## swhitney222 (Sep 24, 2015)

Well I started by asking questions about his system. I am the highest ranking student and instructor he has. But as far as being let go/kicked out. Never got a reason and never got a straight answer on who his kenpo teacher or wing Chun teacher was. Already talked with Joe will be calling him back tonight to rediscuss who his teacher might be. So far it is a mystery.


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## swhitney222 (Sep 28, 2015)

I talked with Joe Rebello and he believes that his training came from Dragon Kenpo or a branch off of Ed Hutchingson but he is not 100% sure. he does say that his name sounds familiar. I read up on dragon kenpo and the training that I went through does seam to fit that particular type of training to a "T". So from my research it is looking towards someone who trained in dragon kenpo.


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## Chris Parker (Oct 3, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> I wondered this myself. It's the sort of thing I've _*heard*_ about, but despite having been involved in a number of different schools, I've never actually seen it happen.
> The closest I've seen was us putting a blue belt back in a white belt because of behavior issues. When the issues were resolved, he got his belt back.
> And we've got a 1st Geup now who will not be allowed to promote to Chodanbo until a few behavioral issues are resolved.
> But banning?



It happens in Koryu… the term is hamon 破門 - literally "break the gate", with a meaning of "expulsion, excommunication". It's not something done lightly… it is like being kicked out of your family… and the black mark that goes with your name can make it incredibly difficult for you to find any further teacher (after all, who wants to take on a student who has already shown themselves lacking to the point that they got expelled from a school?).

The implications go from a complete revocation of any authority to teach the art, or to claim any ranking/association, through to removing the right to use the name of the art at all. It's not common, but it's far from rare enough to be unusual.


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## TimoS (Oct 3, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> It happens in Koryu… the term is hamon 破門 - literally "break the gate", with a meaning of "expulsion, excommunication". It's not something done lightly… it is like being kicked out of your family… and the black mark that goes with your name can make it incredibly difficult for you to find any further teacher (after all, who wants to take on a student who has already shown themselves lacking to the point that they got expelled from a school?).


I think I may have gotten two of those in karatei. I said I think because I haven't gotten any notice of these, at least can't remember it  The first I may have gotten was when my then karate sensei broke away from Shorinji ryu Renshinkan to form his own style. I was either 1. kyu or dan back then, can't remember for sure anymore. The soke of Renshinkan didn't approve of the split and if I remember correctly, we all received some sort hamon back then. The second, and more likely, I probably got a few years later when I left my then style in favor of Okinawan karate. I'm fairly sure I'm no longer welcome in either style. Not that I really care


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## Chris Parker (Oct 3, 2015)

Hamon is an official action. It's like being brought into the managers office and being told that you're not coming into work tomorrow… or ever again. You'd know, if it was hamon…


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## TimoS (Oct 3, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> Hamon is an official action. It's like being brought into the managers office and being told that you're not coming into work tomorrow… or ever again. You'd know, if it was hamon…


Ok. Interesting. My last "hamon" (can't think of a better word right now) was just a guess based on what I heard happened at a friends' dojo. I visited some friends there and brought them a DVD of a big karate demo held in Okinawa. Some of my old friends happened to ask my previous sensei (who taught at their dojo at the time) if he would like to see it also. However, upon hearing who the DVD came from, he apparently threatened to stop teaching at the dojo if I was allowed there.


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## Chris Parker (Oct 3, 2015)

Cool. That, honestly, sounds more like a personal issue… it's rare (pretty much unheard of) to have hamon applied outside of koryu themselves… for a range of reasons. So I would suggest that, while there is a lot of similarity in effect, it's not genuinely hamon in this instance. Doesn't make it any more pleasant, of course…


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## TimoS (Oct 3, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> Cool. That, honestly, sounds more like a personal issue… it's rare (pretty much unheard of) to have hamon applied outside of koryu themselves… for a range of reasons. So I would suggest that, while there is a lot of similarity in effect, it's not genuinely hamon in this instance. Doesn't make it any more pleasant, of course…


Makes sense, actually. And it may have been a case of many misunderstandings also. The sensei I was talking about is Japanese and while he has lived here for most of his life, he is still Japanese and therefore we (my friends and I, that is) may have misunderstood a thing or two when dealing with him.


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## swhitney222 (May 25, 2016)

Well, I am giving up on trying to find out who Michael Agbay's Instructor was. everyone that helped out on providing information thank you. everyone that asked him for me and when I asked him all got the same response " I am unable to tell you who my sensei was", well I believe he may have made it to a brown belt or 1st black and then he self proclaimed himself to 3rd degree as well as a self proclaimed black sash in wing chun. All I can say is I am a better place now and can only look to the future. going to seminars from the great American kenpo legends Larry Tatum, Gilbert Velez, Doreen Dirienzo, Lee Wedlake really showed me how an actual kenpo practitioner is supposed to moves. Thanks to Dave Staples for taking me on as a student and giving me the corrections needed to advance my skill to the next level and break the poor habits that was not seen while training under Michael agbay.


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## ShawnP (May 25, 2016)

just curious, are you the "Shawn" in this video? and it advertises at the end the location is in Spencer Ma.


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## swhitney222 (May 25, 2016)

Hi shawnP, yes I am in the beginning of this video, first time I have seen this one. I am the one in all black punching at mike.


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## swhitney222 (Oct 26, 2016)

link below see reviews, someone finally got him to confess that he will not tell anyone who his teacher was, nice sounds like he never had one. 

Realistic Martial Arts Training


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 26, 2016)

swhitney222 said:


> link below see reviews, someone finally got him to confess that he will not tell anyone who his teacher was, nice sounds like he never had one.
> 
> Realistic Martial Arts Training


Sounds more to me like a legal issue then anything.


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## swhitney222 (Oct 27, 2016)

kempodisciple said:


> Sounds more to me like a legal issue then anything.



Well I have had a few people that contacted him personally asking about his lineage. he just gave them the run around and never told them. never said why he couldn't tell anyone. If it was a legal issue than why not say that.

feel free to ask him yourself grasshoppermja@verizon.net and Phone: (508) 347-0001.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 27, 2016)

swhitney222 said:


> Well I have had a few people that contacted him personally asking about his lineage. he just gave them the run around and never told them. never said why he couldn't tell anyone. If it was a legal issue than why not say that.
> 
> feel free to ask him yourself grasshoppermja@verizon.net and Phone: (508) 347-0001.


I have no desire to ask him as this is not a place for fraudbusting. Also not a place to give out someone's personal information. 

Maybe he is not telling people because random people do not need to know about his legal issues (I certainly wouldn't tell a random person calling me about my legal situation if I had one). Maybe it's related to a split that occurred, but he doesn't want to disrespect his own sensei so he doesn't want to name names, shed a bad light on them, or just go into it in general. There are a ton of reasons why he may not be forthcoming to tell a "disgruntled employee" his personal issues, or the people that employee got to bother him about it.


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## swhitney222 (Oct 28, 2016)

kempodisciple said:


> Also not a place to give out someone's personal information.



this is not his personal information this is his school contact information


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## shima (May 7, 2017)

BTW - for lineage have you ever checked out this site? 
Martial Arts Lineage Project | Putting martial arts history into perspective


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## swhitney222 (May 8, 2017)

shima said:


> BTW - for lineage have you ever checked out this site?



Thanks Shima,

but I have looked into this site and I have exhausted all my resources.

looking to reasearch my own lineage - need help


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