# Desperate city



## KenpoEMT (Sep 3, 2005)

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1475220/posts


> *``You can do everything for other countries, but you can't do nothing for your own people,'' he added. ``You can go overseas with the military, but you can't get them down here.''*





> Tourist Debbie Durso of Washington, Mich., said *she asked a police officer for assistance and his response was, ``'Go to hell - it's every man for himself.'''*





> One military policeman was shot in the leg as he and a man scuffled for the MP's rifle, police Capt. Ernie Demmo said. The man was arrested.





> ``If they're just taking us anywhere, just anywhere, I say praise God,'' said refugee John Phillip. *``Nothing could be worse than what we've been through.'' *





> ``This is not a FEMA operation.* I haven't seen a single FEMA guy*,'' he said. He added: ``*We can send massive amounts of aid to tsunami victims, but we can't bail out the city of New Orleans*.''





> *FEMA officials said some operations had to be suspended in areas where gunfire has broken out.*
> 
> A day after Nagin took *1,500 police officers off search-and-rescue duty to try to restore order in the streets*, there were continued reports of looting, shootings, gunfire and carjackings - and not all the crimes were driven by greed. When some hospitals try to airlift patients, Coast Guard Lt. Cmdr. Cheri Ben-Iesan said, ``there are people just taking potshots at police and at helicopters, telling them, `You better come get my family.'''





> Donald Dudley, a 55-year-old New Orleans seafood merchant, complained that when* he and other hungry refugees* broke into the kitchen of the convention center and *tried to prepare food*, the National Guard chased them away.
> ``*They pulled guns and told us we had to leave that kitchen or they would blow our damn brains out*,'' he said. ``We don't want their help. Give us some vehicles and we'll get ourselves out of here!


This is just awful. I really didn't expect the situation in New Orleans to be allowed to deteriorate as it has. The response to the hurricane seems as if it is being made-up as needed. Was there truely no plan in place? This is not the response that I expect from my government. It borders on inept.

http://www.newschannel5.tv/2005/9/1/4255/Taking-refuge-in-the-Astrodome
[story on link may change; it is a 'breaking news' link]



> HOUSTON -- NEWSCHANNEL 5 crews were in Houston as some desperate refugees arrived in a stolen bus.
> ...
> About 100 people packed into the stolen bus. They were the first to enter the Houston Astrodome, but they weren't exactly welcomed
> ...
> ...


 
What do you want to bet that they prosecute this young man?  I say let him walk; he was just trying to escape death.  He wasn't being selfish; look at how he packed the bus with complete strangers.


A picture of all of the buses that should have been used to help evacuate people:
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050901/480/flpc21109012015


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## KenpoEMT (Sep 3, 2005)

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/09/02/D8CC4IMG0.html



> A day before President Bush headed to the hurricane-ravaged South, Mayor Ray Nagin lashed out at federal officials, telling a local radio station *"they don't have a clue what's going on down here." *
> 
> *Federal officials expressed sympathy* but quickly defended themselves, *saying they, too, were overwhelmed by the catastrophe* that hit the Gulf Coast region on Monday. Nagin's interview Thursday night on WWL radio came as *President Bush planned to visit Gulf Coast *communities battered by Hurricane Katrina, *a visit aimed at alleviating criticism that he engineered a too- little, too-late response. *





> "*They flew down here one time two days after the doggone event was over with TV cameras, AP reporters, *all kind of goddamn _ excuse my French everybody in America, but I am pissed," Nagin said. Nagin said he told Bush in a recent conversation that "*we had an incredible crisis here and that his flying over in Air Force One does not do it justice* ... I have been all around this city and that I am very frustrated because we are not able to marshal resources and we are outmanned in just about every respect."





> "We're also diverting supplies to the convention center *which I learned about yesterday *and that area. ... *This is an absolutely catastrophic disaster,*" he said.


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## Shorin Ryuu (Sep 3, 2005)

Oh, great.  Go ahead and quote the mayor who completely dropped the ball in an article which looks like a study case for media bias.  You do remember that it was Bush who announced a state of emergency on 26 August for Louisiana, starting the process for aid, and had to personally call for full evacuation of the city on 28 August because the mayor was delaying, right?


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## Makalakumu (Sep 3, 2005)

Shorin Ryuu said:
			
		

> Oh, great. Go ahead and quote the mayor who completely dropped the ball in an article which looks like a study case for media bias. You do remember that it was Bush who announced a state of emergency on 26 August for Louisiana, starting the process for aid, and had to personally call for full evacuation of the city on 28 August because the mayor was delaying, right?


The President can't be totally blamed for government innefficiency.  He didn't write the bill that cut flood control money from New Orleans in favor of pork projects like studying dusty roads in Oklahoma.  Yeah, he signed the bill, but can you honestly tell me that a man who doesn't even read the newspaper is going to read a few thousand pages in the highway bill.


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## 7starmantis (Sep 3, 2005)

Does no one realize that the cutting of money was a bad idea but happened way before anyone could really know what was to happen? Does no one realize that the 100 year old levee system was not built to withstand anything over a cat 3 even when the full money was allocated? 

Everyone is jumping on this cutting of money which has almost nothing to do with the situation right now. Everyone is so quick to point the finger. I say take your fingers and go to LA and make yourself usefull saving the lifes of the stranded people. Oh wait, you might get shot doing that.

7sm


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## michaeledward (Sep 3, 2005)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> Does no one realize that the cutting of money was a bad idea but happened way before anyone could really know what was to happen?
> 
> 
> Does no one realize that the 100 year old levee system was not built to withstand anything over a cat 3 even when the full money was allocated?
> ...


You're kidding, right? 

In 1995 six citizens died in Louisiana because of flooding. From that incident, Congress authorized the Southeast Louisiana Urban Flood Control Project. This project made it clear that hundreds of millions of dollars were needed to maintain the integrity of the levee system. Some 450 million dollars were spent between 1995 and 2002. In 2002, with tax cuts and an invasion on the horizon, money for SELA was cut. More than 250 million dollars were on the drawing board for continued projects that were never received. 

We will never know if those money cuts ... would have prevented the 17th Street Levee from deteriorating or not. But we do know that the money was on the board because of known danger.


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## michaeledward (Sep 3, 2005)

The President is currently speaking about sending in Active Duty Military forces form the 82nd Airborne, 1st Marine Expeditionary Force, 1st Cavalry Division to assist with security, search and rescue. 

When the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem begins to look like a nail, eh?


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## Makalakumu (Sep 3, 2005)

michaeledward said:
			
		

> The President is currently speaking about sending in Active Duty Military forces form the 82nd Airborne, 1st Marine Expeditionary Force, 1st Cavalry Division to assist with security, search and rescue.
> 
> When the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem begins to look like a nail, eh?


Fifty cents out of every federal tax dollar is spent on the military...

I hope they have adequate training and can really help these people.


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## michaeledward (Sep 3, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Fifty cents out of every federal tax dollar is spent on the military...
> 
> I hope they have adequate training and can really help these people.


I hope our military is trained to kill people and capture territory.

I hope they are not trained to be a civil police force. 

I can see no viable reason for the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force to be deployed to New Orleans .... Sure, they leveled Fallujah, but New Orleans is already leveled.  Of course, the President said that there were 'members' of these units being deployed. There is no reason to think the entire 1MEF is going to the delta. 

When the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem begins to look like a nail.


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## Makalakumu (Sep 3, 2005)

michaeledward said:
			
		

> When the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem begins to look like a nail.


Yet no one ever questions the wisdom of putting all of our eggs in one basket...so to speak.

Our national guard receive training to deal with civil emergencies.  Unfortunately, most of them are deployed thousands of miles away from our civil emergencies...


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## Shorin Ryuu (Sep 3, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Yeah, he signed the bill, but can you honestly tell me that a man who doesn't even read the newspaper is going to read a few thousand pages in the highway bill.


I won't say most all Congressman do either.

But "a man who doesn't even read the newspaper" isn't the best of logic.  I don't read the newspaper yet I am highly informed.  The inundation of media bias in many journalism sources is reason enough for me not to.

Furthermore, you do realize the president receives far more information on events in the world during his daily brief than do most people on this entire planet.



			
				michaeledward said:
			
		

> We will never know if those money cuts ... would have prevented the 17th Street Levee from deteriorating or not. But we do know that the money was on the board because of known danger.


Actually, the Army Corps of Engineers has already addressed that.  The levee was actually recently upgraded and in complete condition when Hurricane Katrina hit.  Only, it was decades ago the decision was made to have it deal with level 3 hurricanes, and Katrina was a level 4...




			
				upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Our national guard receive training to deal with civil emergencies. Unfortunately, most of them are deployed thousands of miles away from our civil emergencies...


Wrong.  Dead wrong.  Over 75 percent of the National Guard are available nation-wide.




			
				upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Fifty cents out of every federal tax dollar is spent on the military...


So...just where in the world are you getting these numbers?  Not the national budget, that's for sure.


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## Makalakumu (Sep 3, 2005)

http://www.govpro.com/SiteMap_500/strArticleId/103573/ViewArticle.asp

42% of the national guard is deployed overseas. Many, not most, but more then 25%. This percentage is rising.  Oh well 9% off...at least I wasn't 17% off...

http://www.warresisters.org/piechart.htm

48% of the federal budget is spent on defense. 

http://www.econedlink.org/lessons/index.cfm?lesson=EM306

Congress increases this figure by 20%. 48% * .2 = 9.6% + 48% = 57.6%. 

*57.6 cents out of every federal dollar is military spending.*

upnorthkyosa

PS - 81.1% of our national debt is military spending.

http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=1253


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## michaeledward (Sep 3, 2005)

Shorin Ryuu said:
			
		

> Actually, the Army Corps of Engineers has already addressed that. The levee was actually recently upgraded and in complete condition when Hurricane Katrina hit. Only, it was decades ago the decision was made to have it deal with level 3 hurricanes, and Katrina was a level 4...


Please source this.

Last thing I read is that last years proposed budget was 56 million dollars for levee projects, but this was cut to less than 11 million dollars, which allowed only for further study, but not actual work on the levees.

I will be pleased to see your source from the Corps of Engineers.


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## michaeledward (Sep 3, 2005)

Shorin Ryuu said:
			
		

> Actually, the Army Corps of Engineers has already addressed that. The levee was actually recently upgraded and in complete condition when Hurricane Katrina hit. Only, it was decades ago the decision was made to have it deal with level 3 hurricanes, and Katrina was a level 4...


You know, I really hate it when people pull **** like this out of their *******s ... Here is what the* actual *Army Corps of engineers has to say about it. 

Taken from this site. 
http://www.mvn.usace.army.mil/pao/response/HURPROJ.asp?prj=lkpon1



> *FY 2005 BUDGET/EFFORT. *The Presidents budget for fiscal year 2005 was $3.9 million.  Congress increased it to $5.5 million. *This was insufficient* to fund new construction contracts. Engineering design, and construction supervision and inspection efforts are also included. *Seven contracts are being delayed due to lack funds.* They include the floodgate at the Canadian National Railroad and the Gulf South Floodwall and Reach 2A and 2B levee enlargement, all in St. Charles Parish; Reach 1 and Reach 4 Levee Enlargements in Jefferson Parish; Pump Station No. 3 Fronting Protection, Robert E. Lee Bridge replacement and the New Orleans East Back Levee enlargement, all in Orleans Parish; and the Bienvenu to Dupre Levee Enlargement in St. Bernard Parish. The Pontchartrain Levee District is providing funds to construct the Gulf South Pipeline floodwall in St. Charles Parish. The East Jefferson Levee District is providing funds to construct the Reach 1 and Reach 4 levee enlargements in Jefferson Parish. Louis Armstrong International Airport is funding the Canadian National Railroad floodgate as part of the rehabilitation of the east-west runway.
> 
> *FY 2006 BUDGET/EFFORT.* The Presidents budget for fiscal year 2005 is $3.0 million. *This will be insufficient* to fund new construction contracts.  We could spend $20 million if the funds were provided. These *funds are necessary* to maintain the project schedule and to meet our contractual and local sponsor commitments.
> 
> *IMPACTS OF BUDGET SHORTFALL. *In Orleans Parish, two major pump stations are threatened by hurricane storm surges. Major contracts need to be awarded to provide fronting protection for them. Also, *several levees have settled and need to be raised* to provide the design protection. The current *funding shortfalls* in fiscal year 2005 and fiscal year 2006 *will prevent the Corps from addressing these pressing needs.*


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## Shorin Ryuu (Sep 3, 2005)

Army Corps of Engineers:http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...46.story?coll=chi-news-hed&ctrack=1&cset=true

In a telephone interview with reporters, corps officials said that although portions of the flood-protection levees remain incomplete, the levees near Lake Pontchartrain that gave wayinundating much of the citywere completed and in good condition before the hurricane.

However, they noted that the levees were designed for a Category 3 hurricane and couldnt handle the ferocious winds and raging waters from Hurricane Katrina, which was a Category 4 storm when it hit the coastline. The decision to build levees for a Category 3 hurricane was made decades ago based on a cost-benefit analysis.

I dont see that the level of funding was really a contributing factor in this case, said Lt. Gen. Carl Strock, chief of engineers for the corps. Had this project been fully complete, it is my opinion that based on the intensity of this storm that the flooding of the business district and the French Quarter would have still taken place.


Deployment:  http://www.nationalreview.com/robbins/robbins200509020719.asp


 look at the numbers should dispel that notion. Take the Army for example. There are 1,012,000 soldiers on active duty, in the Reserves, or in the National Guard. Of them, 261,000 are deployed overseas in 120 countries. Iraq accounts for 103,000 soldiers, or 10.2 percent of the Army. 
Thats all? Yes, 10.2 percent. That datum is significant in itself, a good one to keep handy the next time someone talks about how our forces are stretched too thin, our troops are at the breaking point, and so forth. If you add in Afghanistan (15,000) and the support troops in Kuwait (10,000) you still only have 12.6 percent.

So where are the rest? 751,000 (74.2 percent) are in the U.S. About half are active duty, and half Guard and Reserve. The Guard is the real issue of course  the Left wants you to believe that the country has been denuded of its citizen soldiers, and that Louisiana has suffered inordinately because Guardsmen and women who would have been available to be mobilized by the state to stop looting and aid in reconstruction are instead risking their lives in Iraq.

Not hardly. According to Lieutenant General H. Steven Blum, chief of the National Guard Bureau, 75 percent of the Army and Air National Guard are available nationwide. In addition, the federal government has agreed since the conflict in Iraq started not to mobilize more than 50 percent of Guard assets in any given state, in order to leave sufficient resources for governors to respond to emergencies. 

In Louisiana only about a third of Guard personnel are deployed, and they will be returning in about a week as part of their normal rotation. The Mississippi Guard has 40 percent overseas. But Louisiana and Mississippi are not alone in this effort  under terms of Emergency Management Assistance Compacts (EMACs) between the states, Guard personnel are heading to the area from West Virginia, D.C., New Mexico, Utah, Missouri, Ohio, Oklahoma, Alabama, Washington, Indiana, Georgia, Kentucky, and Michigan. Thousands have already arrived, and more will over the next day or so.


Date of your article: April 2004
Date of mine: Yesterday


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## Makalakumu (Sep 3, 2005)

Hmm...lets see here, govpro or right wing online journal?


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## michaeledward (Sep 3, 2005)

Shorin Ryuu said:
			
		

> Date of your article: April 2004
> Date of mine: Yesterday


 
Foreshadowing ...

Excuse making ...


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## Shorin Ryuu (Sep 3, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> 48% of the federal budget is spent on defense.
> 
> http://www.econedlink.org/lessons/index.cfm?lesson=EM306
> 
> ...


First off, the methodology is pretty flawed and heavily biased from your sources. 
Anyone that does things like leave Social Security out of the budget is a moron. Your original statement included "federal tax dollars", but even if it didn't, you still couldn't use this argument.


Lets take a look:



> Analysts differ on how much of the debt stems from the military; other groups estimate 50% to 60%. We use 80% because we believe if there had been no military spending most (if not all) of the national debt would have been eliminated. For further explanation, see box at bottom of this page.


(I did and was unsatisfied...just more methodology aimed at liberally adding higher and higher numbers...pun intended...)


Next...
So, you quote some random MATH PROBLEM out of a simulation test from an economics website? Here's something directly from the site



> (Note: While some events in this scenario reflect actual events, others are hypothetical for the purposes of this exercise. Budget figures are actual White House projections of 2002 spending and revenues as of September 2002)


Note that even before the math problem introduced the 20 percent increase, it was still $344 billion out of a total spending $2,052 billion.   As in the original numbers were based on real-life events.

Looks like you need to do the math...


> PS - 81.1% of our national debt is military spending.
> 
> http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=1253


Segment from article:



> To find out how much of the government's net interest payments on the national debt ought to be attributed to past debt-funded defense spending requires a considerable amount of calculation. I have added up all past deficits (minus surpluses) since 1916 (when the debt was nearly zero), prorated according to each year's ratio of national security spendingmilitary, veterans, and international affairsto total federal spending, expressing everything in dollars of constant purchasing power. This sum is equal to 81.1 percent of the value of the national debt held by the public in 2002.


He plays with these kinds of numbers all throughout his entire methodology. He takes one-time expenditures and makes their additions annual. He does a lot of things, but he definitely doesn't convince me of having a sound argument.


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## Shorin Ryuu (Sep 3, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Hmm...lets see here, govpro or right wing online journal?


How about Chief of the National Guard Bureau?

And as far as "excuse making", it isn't.  You should try and use facts in arguments, they help.


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## Makalakumu (Sep 3, 2005)

Has the government reduced troop levels since 2004?


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## Shorin Ryuu (Sep 3, 2005)

What exactly is the relevance of your question?


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## Makalakumu (Sep 3, 2005)

If no troops have been withdrawn, then there must have been a rather large rotation and replacement of troops with active duty and reservists.


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## Shorin Ryuu (Sep 3, 2005)

You're really going to have to be more specific.

"If no troops have been withdrawn" meaning if troops levels were not reduced

"then there must have been a rather large rotation and replacement of troops with active duty and reservists"

Rotation of who to where?  Replacement of national guard troops with active duty?  What?

I'm literally having trouble following your statements.  You began by stating way back in the beginning that majority (very close) of the national guard was stationed overseas.  Having had your statement rebutted, you are now saying this.  You have to be more clear, as I'm unsure what it is you are referring to.


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## Makalakumu (Sep 3, 2005)

Speaking plainly, I would like to see independent verification that the National Guard actually said what your source says it said.  Govpro is the official government site that reports on these things and your source is making a claim that contradicts theirs.  So, unless troop levels have been reduced, or there has been some massive rotation and replacement of guardsmen, I would say that your source's assertions are unsubstantiated...


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## arnisador (Sep 3, 2005)

Building below sea level, near the sea, is always a risk.

Everyone talks about the National Guard--do they have a (nonfederal) state guard there too? Indiana does, I know.


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## Shorin Ryuu (Sep 3, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Speaking plainly, I would like to see independent verification that the National Guard actually said what your source says it said. Govpro is the official government site that reports on these things and your source is making a claim that contradicts theirs. So, unless troop levels have been reduced, or there has been some massive rotation and replacement of guardsmen, I would say that your source's assertions are unsubstantiated...


Gotcha.  I will go find a source when I have the time, then.  I can't promise it right away...I just felt it was more credible being about a year and a half more current.


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## Tgace (Sep 3, 2005)

http://www.ngb.army.mil/onguard/33/04/article.asp?aid=1029

This is from the National Guard Bureau itself...I think this is the source of the 25% number.


http://www.ngb.army.mil/news/2004/02/NationalGovernorsSpeech22Feb04.doc


> In the folder before you is a one-page paper depicting the employment of your National Guard.  It is a snapshot of the percentage of your force that is presently deployed.  The numbers vary daily by state and have ranged as high as 75% of one state's National Guard being deployed.  Governors and Adjutants General have told me this is unacceptable.  Nationally, today, approximately 25% of the National Guard is called to duty as part of the global war on terrorism.


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## Shorin Ryuu (Sep 3, 2005)

That statement linked by the poster above is old, but it still applies according to the latest figures:
http://www.ngb.army.mil/news/story.asp?id=1598

This is one released in May this year. Essentially, it still states that 25% of the guard is deployed.



> The Air National Guard finished April with 106,063 airmen assigned as compared with 106,020 in March marking the first month-to-month increase since the federal fiscal year began on Oct. 1, 2004. The April figure is 99.4 percent of the Air Guards overall strength goal of 106,700 for the current fiscal year, which will end Sept. 30.
> 
> The Army National Guard finished April with 331,019 soldiers in its ranks, or 94.5 percent of its fiscal year goal of 350,000. The April numbers put the service at 97 percent of the 342,180 soldiers it had hoped to have by the end of last month. Still, April was the second-best recruiting month of the current year, coming behind March, and better than the number of new recruits who joined in April 2004.


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## Makalakumu (Sep 3, 2005)

Then where did the 42% figure come from that was released by govpro?  Otherwise, I concede the point.


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## KenpoEMT (Sep 3, 2005)

Shorin Ryuu said:
			
		

> Oh, great. Go ahead and quote the mayor who completely dropped the ball in an article which looks like a study case for media bias. *You do remember* that it was Bush who announced a state of emergency on 26 August for Louisiana, starting the process for aid, and had to personally call for full evacuation of the city on 28 August because the mayor was delaying, right?


Yes, I do remember.  That doesn't mean that I am going to put my fingers in my ears when the Mayor of New Orleans speaks to the media.



> *More than 19,500 National Guard Soldiers were on duty to assist with the hurricane recovery in Louisiana and Mississippi as of Sept. 2*, according to a Guard Bureau spokesman, with thousands more en route from across the nation expected to arrive this weekend.
> http://www4.army.mil/ocpa/read.php?story_id_key=7839





> http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/09/03/bush.radio.katrina.ap/index.html
> Bush said *4,000 active duty troops are already in the area and 7,000 more will arrive in the next 72 hours* from the Army's 82nd Airborne from Fort Bragg, North Carolina, 1st Cavalry Division from Fort Hood, Texas, and the Marines' 1st and 2nd Expeditionary forces from Camp Pendleton, California, and Camp Lejeune, North Carolina.
> 
> *Those troops will join some 21,000 National Guard troops already in the region*.





> http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/09/03/dems.katrina.radio.ap/index.html
> "We are engaged in a massive effort under difficult circumstances to save lives and stabilize this crisis so that we may begin to restore our communities," Rep. Charlie Melancon said. "This is job one."
> 
> "We must also be about the job of *asking tough questions*, my fellow Americans -- questions *about the health of our infrastructure and emergency response capabilities,*" Melancon said.
> ...


Our government knew that Katrina was coming.  They knew that there were approx 100,000 people who could not get out of the city.  It would not have been difficult for our military to take _preemptive action_ in removing civilians from harms way. Why now is it taking several days to mobilize?  There are always units that are on 24hr alert. They could have been in New Orleans the day after Katrina rolled through.

I know that the military always stands ready.  It is the politicians who I am decrying for not giving the proper orders...for having a 'wait and see' attitude toward the lives of the poor and stranded. 

Whoever is at fault, this whole situation in LA reeks of incompetence.


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## Shorin Ryuu (Sep 3, 2005)

Like I said, that must have been a temporary surge in deployment and was back in April of 2004.  That actually would explain the worries present in the article.  However, things have changed since then and the number was back to where it should be (25%) before Hurricane Katrina hit.  Therefore your statement did not apply.

It was an understandable mistake.  In fact, I was ready to concede defeat and was going to inform the writer of the article I cited about the error when I saw the link the poster before me cited was actually dated before yours, making it outdated.  However, since the figures are back to normal, your article does not apply.


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## Shorin Ryuu (Sep 3, 2005)

Theban_Legion said:
			
		

> I know that the military always stands ready. It is the politicians who I am decrying for not giving the proper orders...for having a 'wait and see' attitude toward the lives of the poor and stranded.
> 
> 
> Whoever is at fault, this whole situation in LA reeks of incompetence.


I agree with you. I only think the failure was more of a local matter rather than the federal government. It was the federal government who had to step in and order the full evacuation of the city. Only then did the mayor announce the full evacuation, as he was apparently thinking they could have rode it out. Had Bush not made the announcement, there would have been even more people in New Orleans when Katrina hit.

And again, the federal government started aid and mobilization back on the 26th of August.

At any rate, I have a bunch of other things to do (some related to hurricane relief), and definitely more useful than assigning blame and whatnot.

I will be stepping out of this debate, although I enjoyed it (the academic aspect of an argument, that is...not the circumstances).


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## Tgace (Sep 3, 2005)

The only thing I wonder about....the possibility of this happening has been facing New Orleans for how long now? Was there ever a "plan" developed by the city in the event this were to happen? Granted nothing ever goes as planned, but it seems like this is a "seat of the pants" affair right now.


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## michaeledward (Sep 3, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> The only thing I wonder about....the possibility of this happening has been facing New Orleans for how long now? Was there ever a "plan" developed by the city in the event this were to happen? Granted nothing ever goes as planned, but it seems like this is a "seat of the pants" affair right now.


Please do a google search on 'Hurricane Pam'.


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## Tgace (Sep 3, 2005)

Hmmm.. some half assed table top exercise. I would have thought that the City itself would have been working on something.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/9178501/


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## michaeledward (Sep 3, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Hmmm.. some *half assed table top exercise*. I would have thought that the City itself would have been working on something.
> 
> http://msnbc.msn.com/id/9178501/


Well, it seems to have nailed the results pretty good. 

And isn't that the way most exercises are planned in the beginning? How many table-top exercises have there been for, say a chemical weapon attack, compared to an actual 'in field' exercises?


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## Tgace (Sep 3, 2005)

Granted...I have participated in tabletops. The only way to benefit from them is to actually make realistic plans based on what you learn from them. I wonder how many of the action plans developed from this exercise were actually activated?


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## michaeledward (Sep 3, 2005)

Shorin Ryuu said:
			
		

> In a telephone interview with reporters, corps officials said that although portions of the flood-protection levees remain incomplete, the levees near Lake Pontchartrain that gave wayinundating much of the citywere completed and in good condition before the hurricane.


From that Liberal-Hate-America Andrew Sullivan.



> EMAIL OF THE DAY II: "I've worked closely with Corps personnel for 6 years in various scientific and regulatory capacities on wetlands issues. While the Corps is often maligned by environmentalists, I will be the first to defend the professionalism, commitment and skill of their regulatory field staff.
> The Corps, however, is Army - the institutional culture is one of top-down control and damn-the-torpedoes, and a deeply-ingrained instinct against criticising the chain of command. In an email yesterday that eventually ended up on Wonkette, I predicted that they would be good soldiers and insulate Bush against charges that the levees weren't finished, and indeed I woke up to Al Naomi saying just that on NPR. And General Strock from HQ had to be brought in to do the real damage control: "I don't see that the level of funding was really a contributing factor in this case," said Lt. Gen. Carl Strock, chief of engineers for the corps. "Had this project been fully complete, it is my opinion that based on the intensity of this storm that the flooding of the business district and the French Quarter would have still taken place." (from Chi Trib).
> But there are really TWO questions that must be answered:
> 
> ...


----------



## michaeledward (Sep 3, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Granted...I have participated in tabletops. The only way to benefit from them is to actually make realistic plans based on what you learn from them. I wonder how many of the action plans developed from this exercise were actually activated?


The News report you linked to seemed to report that FEMA and other federal agencies laughed off the exercise. Now, would that be the fault of the study, or someone else? 



> "Those FEMA officials wouldn't listen to me," he says. "Those Corps of Engineers people giggled in the back of the room when we tried to present information."
> One recommendation from the exercise: Tent cities should be prepared for the homeless.
> 
> "Their response to me was: 'Americans don't live in tents,' and that was about it," recalls Van Heerden.


----------



## Tgace (Sep 3, 2005)

Absolutely... Im saying someone dropped the ball here. However, how long has this been a possibility? How long has New Orleans been in the crosshairs of something like this? Do the people at the helm when the inevitable happens bear the bulk of the responsibility? How far back can we go when we say "you guys should have thought of this?"


----------



## Tgace (Sep 3, 2005)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Orleans,_Louisiana


> Much of the city is located below sea level between the Mississippi River and Lake Pontchartrain, so the city is surrounded by levees. Until the early 20th century, construction was largely limited to the slightly higher ground along old natural river levees and bayous, since much of the rest of the land was swampy and subject to frequent flooding. This gave the 19th century city the shape of a crescent along a bend of the Mississippi, the origin of the nickname The Crescent City. In the 1910s engineer and inventor A. Baldwin Wood enacted his ambitious plan to drain the city, including large pumps of his own design which are still used. All rain water must be pumped up to the canals which drain into Lake Pontchartrain. Wood's pumps and drainage allowed the city to expand greatly in area. However, pumping of groundwater from underneath the city has resulted in subsidence. The subsidence greatly increased the flood risk,



So. If you were a city planner, what would you do? Do we rebuild as before but with better levee systems? Or do we go back to the old "Crescent City" and say **** living below sea level?


----------



## michaeledward (Sep 3, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Absolutely... Im saying someone dropped the ball here. However, how long has this been a possibility? How long has New Orleans been in the crosshairs of something like this? Do the people at the helm when the inevitable happens bear the bulk of the responsibility? How far back can we go when we say "you guys should have thought of this?"


http://business.bostonherald.com/businessNews/view.bg?articleid=100857

Please tell me this isn't true .... 



> The federal official in charge of the bungled New Orleans rescue was fired from his last private-sector job overseeing horse shows.
> And before joining the Federal Emergency Management Agency as a deputy director in 2001, GOP activist Mike Brown had no significant experience that would have qualified him for the position.
> The Oklahoman got the job through an old college friend who at the time was heading up FEMA.
> The agency, run by Brown since 2003, is now at the center of a growing fury over the handling of the New Orleans disaster.
> ...


----------



## michaeledward (Sep 3, 2005)

This from the Louisiana National Guard Joint Task Force, Brigadier General Gary Jones;

"This place is going to look like Little Somalia. Were going to go out and take this city back. This will be a *combat operation* to get this city under control.


----------



## KenpoEMT (Sep 3, 2005)

> The federal official in charge of the bungled New Orleans rescue was fired from his last private-sector job overseeing horse shows.





> And before joining the Federal Emergency Management Agency as a deputy director in 2001, GOP activist Mike Brown had no significant experience that would have qualified him for the position.





> The Oklahoman got the job through an old college friend who at the time was heading up FEMA.


That is surreal...



> This will be a *combat operation* to get this city under control


Ah, the final result of getting your slacker college friend a job he isn't qualified to do.  I hope someone goes to prison over this.


----------



## KenpoEMT (Sep 3, 2005)

I seem to recall that it is, oh I don't know, ILLEGAL to use the military in comabt operations against American civilians.  This is supposed to be a rescue operation and not an operation with ROEs of 'terminate with extreme prejudice' .  Somebody needs to suggest to Rambo that he needs to retire.

Jeez, I know that I've been harping for a greater level of assitance from the military, but full fledged combat operations are a bit extreme.  Where are the units designated as "peace keepers?" Oh yeah, that would be ALL of our infantry when needed.  We send our military all over the world, and we handi-cap their efforts by creating restrictive Rules of Engagement.  Now, on American soil in New Orleans, the first impulse of the commanders is to go right into combat mode?!  Does that sound a little off to anyone else, or is it just me?  

Things are very bad in The City right now, but it is nothing that a lot of hot food, clean water, health care, and effective law enforcement can't cure.  Granted, the effective law enforcement part is the most difficult to accomplish. So reassign a few companies of MPs (wow, I guess that there is a positive use for MPs :lol: ).

[randomjab=politicians]

These politicians appear to be too afraid of the public that elected them to effectively perform the duties of their respective offices. Perhaps they honestly don't know what to do.  Gunshy? Afraid of the polls?  The incompetence is already evident...Ahhhhh, our elected Kings and Queens are clearly basking in their relative safety.  No matter, we shall verbally roast them regardless of what they fail to do.

[/randomjab]


----------



## Tgace (Sep 4, 2005)

Theban_Legion said:
			
		

> I seem to recall that it is, oh I don't know, ILLEGAL to use the military in comabt operations against American civilians.


The national guard can be used in instances of civil disorder. They are State entities not federal until "federalized" for active duty.


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## Makalakumu (Sep 4, 2005)

There is a book that was published a ways back called, "The Control of Nature" by John McPhee.  This situation was described intimately in that book, with interviews of top officials who said it was inadequate, it was always inadequate, and because of the attitude of our federal government, it will continue to be inadequate.  This btw, it one of my favorite books.  I use it in my classroom all of the time.  I would recommend that anyone grab a copy and read it.


----------



## KenpoEMT (Sep 4, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> The national guard can be used in instances of civil disorder. They are State entities not federal until "federalized" for active duty.


Well, there is that.  

Aren't they required to be federalized in order to operate beyond their respective states borders?  The LA Nat Guard can operate freely within LA, but in order for the TX Nat Guard to assist must they not come under federal control?  I am not sure.  I wasn't involved in any of the week-end warrior stuff.


----------



## michaeledward (Sep 4, 2005)

There is an terribly sad article in National Geographic from October of last year. 10 months ago.

http://www3.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0410/feature5/index.html


----------



## hardheadjarhead (Sep 4, 2005)

So, you think Halliburton will be put in charge of reconstructing New Orleans?   If so they won't have power for at least three years.

I should say reconstruction of the central south coastal states.  Mississippi was slammed too.  Biloxi, where I used to live, was put under a 25 foot tidal surge.  I guess another storm is on the way.


10,000 feared dead:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/katrina/story/0,16441,1562005,00.html?gusrc=rss

People dying of thirst:

http://www.cadenhead.org/workbench/news/2731/dying-thirst-new-orleans

Two dead babies were found with other bodies in the Convention Center.  The stench, apparently, is overwhelming given all the piled up garbage and the corpses.  One teenager was found raped and her throat slashed...stuffed in a refrigerator.

The reporters for Fox News who are witnessing all this are firing off at Sean Hannity, who is trying to minimize the damage down there.  

Homeland Security can't allow the Red Cross to deliver food because of damage:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05246/565143.stm


There are elderly and children down there who are lacking medications and medical attention.  The water is foul, having been tainted with fuel, chemicals, rotting flesh, and feces.  People haven't a clue as to how to survive because they never thought they'd face this.





Regards,


Steve


----------



## Sapper6 (Sep 4, 2005)

Theban_Legion said:
			
		

> Well, there is that.
> 
> Aren't they required to be federalized in order to operate beyond their respective states borders?  The LA Nat Guard can operate freely within LA, but in order for the TX Nat Guard to assist must they not come under federal control?  I am not sure.  I wasn't involved in any of the week-end warrior stuff.



no, federalization is not required.  when the national guard is called up for disaster relief and security, they are put on SED (State Emergency Duty) orders.  these soldiers are paid by their respective states, not the federal gov't.  case in point, missouri deployed 1000 MP's to the region. these soldiers were notifed wednesday afternoon of the SED mobilizations, reported to their alert stations thursday afternoon, and convoys departed friday morning.  these soldiers will be paid by the state of missouri for the entire time they are there.  

and i would hardly refer to them as weekend warriors.  the national guard and army reserve make up half of all the troops in iraq and afghanistan.  the MPs missouri sent, 1138th MP, 1139th MP, 175th MP, and 179th MP PROV BDE, all just returned from an 18 month mobilization to iraq, afghanistan, cuba, and noble eagle missions in April.


----------



## KenpoEMT (Sep 4, 2005)

Hey, thanks for the info.

The week-end warrior comment was not meant to be a negative crack.  That's just how they were referred to.  They train one week-end per month/two weeks per year until called up.  

Many, many week-end warriors served valiantly in Vietnam as well.  I didn't know anything about that until one of my friends pointed it out.  

Businessman by day, warrior by week-end; standing ready to serve when our nation calls. Trust me, I don't have anything negative to say about those guys/gals.


----------



## Sapper6 (Sep 4, 2005)

Theban_Legion said:
			
		

> Hey, thanks for the info.
> 
> The week-end warrior comment was not meant to be a negative crack.  That's just how they were referred to.  They train one week-end per month/two weeks per year until called up.
> 
> ...



hey, no problem man  

 :asian:


----------



## hardheadjarhead (Sep 4, 2005)

_"...The guy who runs this building Im in, Emergency Management, hes responsible for everything. His mother was trapped in St. Bernard nursing home and every day she called him and said, Are you coming, son? Is somebody coming? and he said, Yeah, Mama, somebodys coming to get you. Somebodys coming to get you on Tuesday. Somebodys coming to get you on Wednesday. Somebodys coming to get you on Thursday. Somebodys coming to get you on Friday and she drowned Friday night. She drowned Friday night! [Sobbing] Nobodys coming to get us. Nobodys coming to get us "_

http://thinkprogress.org/2005/09/04/worst-abandonments/




Regards,


Steve


----------



## KenpoEMT (Sep 4, 2005)

hardheadjarhead said:
			
		

> _"...The guy who runs this building Im in, Emergency Management, hes responsible for everything. His mother was trapped in St. Bernard nursing home and every day she called him and said, Are you coming, son? Is somebody coming? and he said, Yeah, Mama, somebodys coming to get you. Somebodys coming to get you on Tuesday. Somebodys coming to get you on Wednesday. Somebodys coming to get you on Thursday. Somebodys coming to get you on Friday and she drowned Friday night. She drowned Friday night! [Sobbing] Nobodys coming to get us. Nobodys coming to get us "_
> 
> http://thinkprogress.org/2005/09/04/worst-abandonments/


Ugh...that's awful.


----------



## shesulsa (Sep 4, 2005)

hardheadjarhead said:
			
		

> _"...The guy who runs this building Im in, Emergency Management, hes responsible for everything. His mother was trapped in St. Bernard nursing home and every day she called him and said, Are you coming, son? Is somebody coming? and he said, Yeah, Mama, somebodys coming to get you. Somebodys coming to get you on Tuesday. Somebodys coming to get you on Wednesday. Somebodys coming to get you on Thursday. Somebodys coming to get you on Friday and she drowned Friday night. She drowned Friday night! [Sobbing] Nobodys coming to get us. Nobodys coming to get us "_
> 
> http://thinkprogress.org/2005/09/04/worst-abandonments/


 I saw that footage last night and today - I am just speechless.


----------



## Tgace (Sep 4, 2005)

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/02/national/nationalspecial/02response.html



> "We knew if it was going to be a Category 5, some levees and some flood walls would be overtopped," he said. "We never did think they would actually be breached." The uncertainty of the storm's course affected Pentagon planning.
> 
> "We did not have precision on where it would make landfall," said Lt. Gen. H. Steven Blum, the head of the National Guard Bureau. "It could have been anywhere from Texas all the way over to Florida."
> 
> Some 10,000 National Guard troops were mobilized, 7,000 of them in Louisiana and Mississippi. But the Defense Department could not put soldiers and equipment directly in the possible path of the storm, General Blum said.





> The National Guard was having similar troubles. While troops were stationed in the region, they could not move quickly into the New Orleans area. And in Mississippi, the zone of destruction was so widespread, it was difficult to cover it all quickly, officials said.
> 
> "It is not a function of more people, but how many people can you move on the road system that exists now in Louisiana and in Mississippi," said General Blum of the National Guard. "How many people can you put through that funnel that a storm has taken four lane highways and turned them into goat trails?"


People have no clue what a military mobilization entails.....


----------



## Makalakumu (Sep 5, 2005)

When it comes to rescuing somebody, there is a 72 hour window where people can survive.  If the military cannot do it in 72 hours, then perhaps we need to find another way...

Five days is too long.


----------



## Tgace (Sep 5, 2005)

The only way to "save a city" is evacuation. With that many people to deal with...Moving thousands of people and housing and clothing them in 72 hours is a herculean task.


----------



## Shorin Ryuu (Sep 5, 2005)

I would appreciate if people didn't downgrade me as far as reputation regarding posts on a political nature.

Obviously everyone is free to do what they will, but it is making me look like some sort of a delinquent poster when the cause is disagreement over politics.


----------



## KenpoEMT (Sep 5, 2005)

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/09/04/D8CDNSVG0.html



> Police shot and killed at least five people Sunday after *gunmen opened fire on a group of contractors* traveling across a bridge on their way to make repairs, authorities said.
> 
> Deputy Police Chief W.J. Riley said *police shot at eight people carrying guns, killing five or six. *
> 
> Fourteen contractors were traveling across the Danziger Bridge under police escort when they came under fire, said John Hall, a spokesman for the Army Corps of Engineers. They were on their way to launch barges into Lake Pontchartrain to help plug the breach in the 17th Street Canal, Hall said.


Roving bands of armed lunatics, that's just great.  Normally, I would say something like, "Arm the law-abiding citizens, and let them protect themselves."  Only, there doesn't seem to be too many law-abiding citizens left in New Orleans right now.  Desperate City indeed, very desperate.  Is there a law that I would not break when my family is starving?  (...well, yeah. I wouldn't try to kill contractors and exchange gunfire with law-enforcement officials.) 

I hope the cops have some dang good armor. It sounds like they need to be wearing it on an hourly basis.


----------



## michaeledward (Sep 5, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> The only way to "save a city" is evacuation. With that many people to deal with...Moving thousands of people and housing and clothing them in 72 hours is a herculean task.


Cuba seems to be able to do this without too much difficulty.


----------



## michaeledward (Sep 5, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/02/national/nationalspecial/02response.html
> 
> People have no clue what a military mobilization entails.....


I believe one of the leaders of New Orleans, early on, stated that the city had only two needs ... Buses and Gasoline.


----------



## Sapper6 (Sep 5, 2005)

michaeledward said:
			
		

> I believe one of the leaders of New Orleans, early on, stated that the city had only two needs ... Buses and Gasoline.



i believe the president had issued a declaration of emergency two days before the hurricane made landfall.  the city's mayor left it up to the citzens to get themselves out.  did you happen to see all the school bus compounds in the city that were full of school buses??? 

this leaves many wondering why the cities mayor did not do more during the mandatory evacuation...when he DID have buses and gasoline.


----------



## michaeledward (Sep 5, 2005)

You go there Sapper O'Reilly.


----------



## michaeledward (Sep 5, 2005)

Sapper6 said:
			
		

> i believe the president had issued a declaration of emergency two days before the hurricane made landfall. the city's mayor left it up to the citzens to get themselves out. did you happen to see all the school bus compounds in the city that were full of school buses???
> 
> this leaves many wondering why the cities mayor did not do more during the mandatory evacuation...when he DID have buses and gasoline.


When the President declares a state of emergency, the emergency becomes, by definition a *federal event.*

Former FEMA Chief of Staff Jane Bullock put it this way.



> "The moment the president declared a federal disaster, it became a federal responsibility. The federal government took ownership over the response,"


----------



## Sapper6 (Sep 5, 2005)

michaeledward said:
			
		

> You go there Sapper O'Reilly.



hey man, just the facts, with no spin. :supcool: 

i'm not defending the federal gov't for the way they are handling it.  it should be better.  but at the same time, the city of new orleans could have done a better job of getting people out.  there was no command and control from the very beginning, even before the storm hit.  over 2,500 school buses and two days notice.  there's alot to be learned from this, from a state AND federal POV.  did anyone really anticipate the collapse of the city's protective services and gov't?  i certainly did not.  when that does happen, it takes a while to respond.  not speaking for the FEMA people, they should have been ready, no excuse for that.  but it takes a couple days to mobilize and coordinate a 10,000 troop response.


----------



## Sapper6 (Sep 5, 2005)

michaeledward said:
			
		

> When the President declares a state of emergency, the emergency becomes, by definition a *federal event.*
> 
> Former FEMA Chief of Staff Jane Bullock put it this way.



well sure but that doesn't mean the city shouldn't feel compelled to do anything about it.  take ownership of your city and it's citizens.  it's their job, regardless of higher levels of support.


----------



## Sapper6 (Sep 5, 2005)

> *Louisiana disaster plan, pg 13, para 5 , dated 01/00 *
> _'The primary means of hurricane evacuation will be personal vehicles. School and municipal buses, government-owned vehicles and vehicles provided by volunteer agencies may be used to provide transportation for individuals who lack transportation and require assistance in evacuating'..._



where's the spin?

oh, and in case anyone feels the need to question my source...  

http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/plans/eopindex.htm

keep in mind, the national guard is at the disposal and command of the governor of said state.  this being the case, why was the Arkansas National guard on the ground in new orleans before the LA-ARNG?

and in case you're wondering about my source on that claim...

http://www.ngb.army.mil/


----------



## Tgace (Sep 5, 2005)

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/9190577/

Excellent article on the issue of rebuilding New Orleans.




> The first week augurs ill. If House Speaker Dennis Hastert is saying nowwith sympathy at its peakthat pumping billions of federal dollars into restoring a city below sea level "doesn't make sense," then aid from Washington will plummet in a few months when attention turns elsewhere. Some wealthier refugees are saying privately that they've all but given up on the place. The pictures of looting seemed to burst a psychic dam inside them. Invest in _this_? Pay more taxes for _them_? That's a recipe for white flightovernight. On the other side are blackswell over half the city's populationwho are fed up with a power structure that could not keep them alive, much less house and educate them. Whites and blacks in New Orleans were swimming in a fetid swamp of racial tensions long before Katrina showed up.


----------



## Tgace (Sep 5, 2005)

michaeledward said:
			
		

> Cuba seems to be able to do this without too much difficulty.


 
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/world/stories/091304dnintcubaside.168fc.html



> In Cuba, evacuations are mandatory.
> 
> "I don't care whether it's called socialism or good governance," researcher Ben Wisner wrote after Hurricane Michelle. "This island has lessons for the rest of the Caribbean and the hemisphere."
> 
> ...


The Cubans routinely face these situations and mandate evac before the storm, always. Could you imagine the expense and outrage Americans would express if the gvt. forced evacuation every time a hurricane threatened? The fact that New Orleans skipped the bullet for so many years is probably one reason people didnt make a bigger effort to evacuate. These things are rare in the US. Not so Cuba.


----------



## arnisador (Sep 5, 2005)

Shorin Ryuu said:
			
		

> I would appreciate if people didn't downgrade me as far as reputation regarding posts on a political nature.


 I'm inclined to agree, though sometimes a post is so extreme it's hard to resist (not directed at the poster, BTW).


----------



## Shorin Ryuu (Sep 6, 2005)

Don't let the name of this blog throw you off (Right Wing Nutcase):http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2005/09/04/katrina-response-timeline/ 
He has assembled all the stories from a single source: New Orleans Times-Picayune online site.

It is essentially a timeline of known actions that took place around this whole crisis.

As he says, the purpose of this isn't to play the blame game, but to just let people have a more coherent idea of what was done and where.

It runs from 26 August to 2 September.

An interesting read regardless of where you stand.  I recommend everyone check it out to get a better of idea of what went on.


----------



## shesulsa (Sep 6, 2005)

A brand-spanking new jail - unused and fully stocked - in the Pac Northwest awaits victims of Katrina, but will probably not be used due to stigma alone. Rescuees would have free roam and would not be restrained in any way, but the idea of putting folks into a jail seems to be too problematic.

  Me, I'd be happy to have three hots and a cot.  How 'bout you?


----------



## Tgace (Sep 6, 2005)

I wonder why old military bases arent re-opened. Theyre designed to house and feed thousands of people. Entertainment and recreation complexes, shopping centers, garages, warehouses, schools, hospitals, etc. etc. They just need to be taken out of mothballs.


----------



## sgtmac_46 (Sep 6, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> I wonder why old military bases arent re-opened. Theyre designed to house and feed thousands of people. Entertainment and recreation complexes, shopping centers, garages, warehouses, schools, hospitals, etc. etc. They just need to be taken out of mothballs.


 I agree, bases are equipped to handle thousands, sometimes tens of thousands.


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## arnisador (Sep 6, 2005)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Rescuees


 Meanwhile, the war of the words continues, as Jesse Jackson decries the use of the word 'refugees' as racist in this contec\xt:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=1103187&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312


----------



## Makalakumu (Sep 7, 2005)

Racial tensions in the deep south are still very deep. People like Jesse Jackson watched people die in Mississippi...just to get the right to vote. Race played a significant factor with what happened in New Orleans. I'm not saying it was the only factor, but it played a part. 

For instance, evacuation order...

"Naw get on outta hea!"
"Sir, what about the poor negros?"
"Let them boys take caya of dem selves."

Sure that is ficticious, but, IMHO, totally plausable.


----------



## shesulsa (Sep 7, 2005)

I don't think most people really understand just how deep racism still runs in the South and in Texas.  

 My mother is a great example: she has no qualms about a person of color cooking for her and serving her food up, doing her laundry, housekeeping, etcetera.  But to have a person of color clean her teeth, buy her groceries, ring up her clothing purchases or use her bathroom?  She would consider it disgusting - but she's "not racist."  Born and raised in Nashville, she was more than aware of what happened to black Americans all around her and thought not much of it.  Interestingly, she received her just desserts when she moved to Southern California with my father where she was looked upon as being stupid because of her drawl.  She's had to deal with it all her life and has been called 'hick,' 'hillbilly,' 'farm girl,' 'southern pig,' etcetera.

 Racism is NOT dead, folks - we still have so very far to go.


----------



## michaeledward (Sep 7, 2005)

It appears now that the National Guard and the Police are confuscating cameras, digital media, and film from photographers in New Orleans.

http://www.nppa.org/news_and_events/news/2005/09/hurricane2.html




> _Toronto Star_ staff photojournalist *Lucas* *Oleniuk* was taken to the ground by police in the Spanish Quarter after he photographed a firefight between looters and police, and police were then reportedly beating on a looter. A coworker at the _Toronto Star_ told _News_ _Photographer_ magazine tonight, The cops saw him and put him down, and took his gear. At first they were going to take all of his cameras, but he talked them into only taking the memory cards and letting him keep the cameras. Oleniuks coworker says the photojournalist, who was not injured in the incident, went to New Orleans the day after the hurricane hit.


Who would've thought that in the United States, Press photographers would not be Free.


----------



## michaeledward (Sep 7, 2005)

Find your city, and see what the folks who support MoveOn.Org have done.

http://www.hurricanehousing.org


----------



## arnisador (Sep 7, 2005)

Taking the cameras? I hope that's an isolated example.


----------



## shesulsa (Sep 8, 2005)

It's disturbing that this is happening in what is supposed to be the greatest nation on the planet - one of the richest in the world with some of the best and fastest relief and rescue workers ... now liberty is stomped on rampantly and openly for all to see.  Human life disposable.

 How horrible.


----------



## modarnis (Sep 8, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Racial tensions in the deep south are still very deep. People like Jesse Jackson watched people die in Mississippi...just to get the right to vote. Race played a significant factor with what happened in New Orleans. I'm not saying it was the only factor, but it played a part.
> 
> For instance, evacuation order...
> 
> ...




I find that fictitious commentary wholly offensive.  Having myself lived in New Orleans for 4 years in the late 1990's, and maintaining close ties with the city since I left, it is clear to me that you know little or nothing about New Orleans or its government.  

New Orleans has had a long line of African American mayors, including the current mayor Nagin and recently Marc Morial (who's father, also a former mayor the convention center is named after).  The most recent police chiefs( superintendents) including Eddie Compass  and his predecesor Richard Pennington were African American.  A majority of the city council is African American, as are a multitude of judges, business people and influential power brokers in greater New Orleans.  As a city that averages 65-70% African American population, their government is a very fair cross section of the racial composition of the city.

The real issue in this crisis was an utter disregard for well established incident command structure which would include sub commanders for police, fire, EMS, media relations, resource allocation, public works/engineering, national guard liason,food/water liason, and evacuation coordinator, all managing their respective teams, and commmunicating their needs to the incident commander.  

This basic structure is taught natiowide to EMT/paramedic students, firefighters, police agencies.  The incident command system should be implemented whenever needs are anticipated to exceed initial response resources.  The first person to assess the scene assumes the incident command role.  As the situation progresses, command can be transferred to another person.  Without this type of command and control already set up, it was difficult for FEMA or homeland or National guard to come in and assume control of an already out of control situation.  The mayor was in the best position on Saturday/Sunday before the storm hit to assume the role of IC and set up a command structure.  It is fairly obvious that he did not create that type of structure.  It is doubtful that race was a controlling factor in those initial failures


----------



## 7starmantis (Sep 8, 2005)

michaeledward said:
			
		

> You're kidding, right?
> 
> In 1995 six citizens died in Louisiana because of flooding. From that incident, Congress authorized the Southeast Louisiana Urban Flood Control Project. This project made it clear that hundreds of millions of dollars were needed to maintain the integrity of the levee system. Some 450 million dollars were spent between 1995 and 2002. In 2002, with tax cuts and an invasion on the horizon, money for SELA was cut. More than 250 million dollars were on the drawing board for continued projects that were never received.
> 
> We will never know if those money cuts ... would have prevented the 17th Street Levee from deteriorating or not. But we do know that the money was on the board because of known danger.


 So when exactly were the level 3 cat levees made? After 1995 did you see an expansion or renevation of these levees? No you didn't, you saw spenditure on "maintenance". Why were the levees not build to withstand more than a cat 3 at that time? Your correct, but looking at the wrong issue. Known danger is a farce. They didn't want to spend the money then, why should we believe that if the full allocated amount was available it would have ever been used?

  7sm


----------



## 7starmantis (Sep 8, 2005)

modarnis said:
			
		

> I find that fictitious commentary wholly offensive. Having myself lived in New Orleans for 4 years in the late 1990's, and maintaining close ties with the city since I left, it is clear to me that you know little or nothing about New Orleans or its government.
> 
> New Orleans has had a long line of African American mayors, including the current mayor Nagin and recently Marc Morial (who's father, also a former mayor the convention center is named after). The most recent police chiefs( superintendents) including Eddie Compass and his predecesor Richard Pennington were African American. A majority of the city council is African American, as are a multitude of judges, business people and influential power brokers in greater New Orleans. As a city that averages 65-70% African American population, their government is a very fair cross section of the racial composition of the city.
> 
> ...


 Very true and the governor also drug her feet. She is the one who had the initial power to use national guard troops. The structure needs to be examined. Race, in my opinion has very, very little to do with this issue.

 7sm


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## Rich Parsons (Sep 8, 2005)

modarnis said:
			
		

> I find that fictitious commentary wholly offensive.  Having myself lived in New Orleans for 4 years in the late 1990's, and maintaining close ties with the city since I left, it is clear to me that you know little or nothing about New Orleans or its government.
> 
> New Orleans has had a long line of African American mayors, including the current mayor Nagin and recently Marc Morial (who's father, also a former mayor the convention center is named after).  The most recent police chiefs( superintendents) including Eddie Compass  and his predecesor Richard Pennington were African American.  A majority of the city council is African American, as are a multitude of judges, business people and influential power brokers in greater New Orleans.  As a city that averages 65-70% African American population, their government is a very fair cross section of the racial composition of the city.
> 
> ...




I agree here. New Orleans also had free African Americans before the Civil and during the Civil War. The city has a long history of African American involvement and belonging to the community.

The issue was not and is not race, but, is one of being aware or executing structures that should have been in place. As Iw as not involved with the briefings, I do not know what the Mayor or the Govenor was told, or how the situation was pitched.

As for Fiction my account could be just as likely as yours:



> Mr Mayor I believe that the storm will hit Missisippi and that there may be some flooding but all is in order, do not worry.
> 
> or
> 
> Madame Governor I believe that the storm will hit Missisippi and that there may be some flooding but all is in order, do not worry.



Yet, as I was not there, and would prefer to have people working on fixing the broken dams and pumps, as well as to tending to the dead, and relocation of those now homeless, and then rebuilding plans, before we hang the people for this event.

While I agree that it is sad it took time to respond, and loss of lives and the conditions people were put in, I have to re-iterate what Brett said above, that the structures should have been in place, and it looks like they were in Missisippi as there was less loss of lives there and it was easier for the National Guard to step in and take over and take charge. And you cannot tell me that there are no poor people in Missisippi, be they White or Black.

So, it is not an issue White or Black or Rich or Poor, it is one of execution. 

At least that is my Thrusday Morning quarter backing Hind-site opinion is.


----------



## Makalakumu (Sep 8, 2005)

The structure of the government surely played the leading factor in explaining the mishandling of the situation, but I think you are missing something if you can look at the masses of poor black suffering and dying and NOT see any racial factors.  This is more then a simple case of wrong place wrong time.


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## Rich Parsons (Sep 8, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> The structure of the government surely played the leading factor in explaining the mishandling of the situation, but I think you are missing something if you can look at the masses of poor black suffering and dying and NOT see any racial factors.  This is more then a simple case of wrong place wrong time.




The population of those in New Orleans is mostly Africa American.

Brett said  on the order of 65% to 70%. 

That is like taking a sample of Hamtramack, that used to be predominately Polish, and now is Predominately Middle Eastern. If you took a sample size of people from there, you would see a middle eastern group of people that could be said was racist then or even religious persecution. 

I agree it is more then a simple case of wrong place wrong time it is like I said an issue of executing a structure that should have been in place.


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## Makalakumu (Sep 8, 2005)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> The population of those in New Orleans is mostly Africa American.
> 
> Brett said on the order of 65% to 70%.
> 
> ...


New Orleans is part of a bigger whole.  And, historically, flooding in that area and the greater area has predominantly affected poor black people.  The lowest lying neighborhoods are the poorest and the blackest.  The people who are bearing the brunt are predominantly poor and black and have always been.  Part of the reason for this is racial.


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## Rich Parsons (Sep 8, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> New Orleans is part of a bigger whole.  And, historically, flooding in that area and the greater area has predominantly affected poor black people.  The lowest lying neighborhoods are the poorest and the blackest.  The people who are bearing the brunt are predominantly poor and black and have always been.  Part of the reason for this is racial.




So the Typhons in the India Ocean that cause floods in India is also Racial? 10,000 people die each year just from rain fall flooding, not even the storms. 

So this is also racial since the Indians live there, and it did not affect the English as much when they ran the country? or those who still live there, but are not of local racial stock? 

I am lost here with your reasoning.


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## Makalakumu (Sep 8, 2005)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> So the Typhons in the India Ocean that cause floods in India is also Racial? 10,000 people die each year just from rain fall flooding, not even the storms.
> 
> So this is also racial since the Indians live there, and it did not affect the English as much when they ran the country? or those who still live there, but are not of local racial stock?
> 
> I am lost here with your reasoning.


The reasoning is simple...answer the following questions.

Who is poor?  Who lives in the lowest areas?  Who was unable to get out?  Who was?

Your example oversimplifies what has happened in India.  Certain ethnic groups/races/castes suffer more their too...for the same reasons they do here.


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## Makalakumu (Sep 8, 2005)

> you are so unable to have any logical or meaningful conversation. Glad I'm not so hamstrung by ideology


 

Somebody sent this too me anonymously...

All I can say is, answer the questions I posed above and tell me that racism played no part.  The only thing hamstrung in this comment is the poster's ability to see reality.

Racism was a factor.  Not _the_ factor, but it WAS a factor.

For further reading on this try Cornell West's Race Matters.  Perhaps, even you can see what I'm talking about.


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## Rich Parsons (Sep 8, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> The reasoning is simple...answer the following questions.
> 
> Who is poor?  Who lives in the lowest areas?  Who was unable to get out?  Who was?
> 
> Your example oversimplifies what has happened in India.  Certain ethnic groups/races/castes suffer more their too...for the same reasons they do here.




While my example may have been over simplification, it is nothing more then what has been presented already. I just followed the same premise as what was presented. So if it is over simplification for me it is also for those who used the same methods and explanations.

I still want to know why the Poor African Americans got out in Mississippi but, not in New Orleans. If your arguement had validity you would be able to prove that no matter where people are there is racism. 

I do not doubt that racism exists, I face it myself, maybe not as much as the average African American, but I face it with comments, of Sand ..., Towel Head, Camel jockey, Half-breed, and many others.  And with the recent issues in the Middle East, I have faced more insults and slurs, and issues when travelling abroad. I have also been followed out of towns by White Police Officers, because I am not Blonde and Blue eyed. You can Ask Paul about a time he crossed from Canada to the USA with me, and how I got the third degree, while he did not have to answer, or did not care that he answered, or the fact that he admited that he had weapons in the trunk. Yet, I was really in trouble for having training equipment. So I KNOW it exists. 

Yet, in this case, I do not see it.

You are going to have to make a much stronger case that all the poor are being treated wrongly. Then you will have to prove that there were poor White people who got out in the same neighborhoods, and with the same conditions, while the African Americans were _sent_ somewhere and not evacuated, by choice, by someone who was not African American.


*****************************


Now if you are truly upset, and cannot believe that this could happen here in the USA, and you are outraged, then add your voice to your Senators and Congressmen, to have an investigation, but to not just stand back and make claims of Racism, just because some people involved were African American. 




 :asian:


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## Tgace (Sep 8, 2005)

Aint nothing like taking advantage of a disaster for political gain/leverage eh?

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/w...05/09/07/democrats_shift_strategy_on_roberts/



> WASHINGTON -- Senate Democrats said yesterday that they will invoke the vast disparities in income and living conditions laid bare by the Hurricane Katrina disaster to sharpen their questioning of Supreme Court nominee John G. Roberts Jr. at his confirmation hearings next week.
> 
> The scenes of devastation featuring primarily poor African-American residents in New Orleans have highlighted the widening gap between rich and poor, said Senator Edward M. Kennedy, Democrat of Massachusetts.


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## Marginal (Sep 8, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Aint nothing like taking advantage of a disaster for political gain/leverage eh?


Hey don't knock it. Got us into Iraq didn't it?


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## Makalakumu (Sep 8, 2005)

Rich, I appreciate your candor.  However, I must disagree.  There are many good books out there that specifically address racism and flooding.  Heck, listening to NPR the other day, they did a huge segment on it.  The poorest and blackest neighborhoods were and are always the lowest.  Heck, it wasn't too long ago that levees were built so that they _excluded_ black neighboorhoods.  From Georgia to Missouri to Texas this was the case.  

There was a poll recently done by NPR.  The results were that 66% of African Americans felt that what happened in New Orleans was a direct result of the racial tensions.  78% felt that if white people had been living there, the levees would have been built up.  However, only 17% of white people believe that race was a factor.  This disparity in opinion is staggering, and I think it is indicative of the state of race relations in this country.


----------



## Tgace (Sep 8, 2005)

So if you BELIEVE there is racism then there IS racism?


----------



## Makalakumu (Sep 8, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> So if you BELIEVE there is racism then there IS racism?


Oh I get it, they are just making it up...


----------



## Tgace (Sep 8, 2005)

All I get is that there seems to be a unarguable, one size fits all blame game waiting in the box to be used whenever the need arises....


----------



## michaeledward (Sep 8, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> All I get is that there seems to be a unarguable, one size fits all blame game waiting in the box to be used whenever the need arises....


Could it be because we have a one-size-fits-all Administration. 

Tax Cuts & I'm a war President


----------



## Sapper6 (Sep 8, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> The reasoning is simple...answer the following questions.
> 
> Who is poor?  Who lives in the lowest areas?  Who was unable to get out?  Who was?
> 
> Your example oversimplifies what has happened in India.  Certain ethnic groups/races/castes suffer more their too...for the same reasons they do here.



you're right, it was poor black people that got left there.  ding, ding, ding, you're the winner.  next question:  who should have shouldered the responsibility of evacuating those folks...?  our white president?  our white federal gov't.  wrong there chief.  

and if it were racism that stranded the remaining citizens of new orleans, which in itself is such an ignorant claim, then it was committed by the BLACK mayor of the city.  so can it really be racism...?  or perhaps the fault of one white democratic governor, so maybe it is racism...? :idunno: 



> Many in the media are turning their eyes toward the federal government, rather than considering the culpability of city and state officials. I am fully aware of the challenges of having a quick and responsive emergency response to a major disaster. And there is definitely a time for accountability; but what isn't fair is to dump on the federal officials and avoid those most responsible--local and state officials who failed to do their job as the first responders. The plain fact is, lives were needlessly lost in New Orleans due to the failure of Louisiana's governor, Kathleen Blanco, and the city's mayor, Ray Nagin.





> *The primary responsibility for dealing with emergencies does not belong to the federal government. It belongs to local and state officials who are charged by law with the management of the crucial first response to disasters. First response should be carried out by local and state emergency personnel under the supervision of the state governor and his emergency operations center*.



this is correct.  just because the president issued a declaration of emergency two days before landfall doesn't mean the evac responsibility lies with the federal government, it only means they shoulder the bill and all financial expenses for such evacuations.



> The actions and inactions of Gov. Blanco and Mayor Nagin are a national disgrace due to their *failure to implement the previously established evacuation plans of the state and city.* Gov. Blanco and Mayor Nagin cannot claim that they were surprised by the extent of the damage and the need to evacuate so many people. Detailed written plans were already in place to evacuate more than a million people. The plans projected that 300,000 people would need transportation in the event of a hurricane like Katrina. If the plans had been implemented, thousands of lives would likely have been saved.



a plan that was written by THEM, not the federal gov't...and it states:



> *Louisiana disaster plan, pg 13, para 5 , dated 01/00 *
> 'The primary means of hurricane evacuation will be personal vehicles. School and municipal buses, government-owned vehicles and vehicles provided by volunteer agencies may be used to provide transportation for individuals who lack transportation and require assistance in evacuating'...





> In addition to the plans, local, state and federal officials *held a simulated hurricane drill 13 months ago*, in which widespread flooding supposedly trapped 300,000 people inside New Orleans. The exercise simulated the evacuation of more than a million residents. *The problems identified in the simulation apparently were not solved*.



again, whose fault...?



> *The city's evacuation plan states*: "The *city of New Orleans * will utilize all available resources to quickly and safely evacuate threatened areas." But even though the city has enough *school and transit buses* to evacuate 12,000 citizens per fleet run, the *mayor did not use them*. To compound the problem, *the buses were not moved to high ground and were flooded*. The plan also states that "special arrangements will be made to evacuate persons unable to transport themselves or who require specific lifesaving assistance. Additional personnel will be recruited to assist in evacuation procedures as needed." *This was not done*.





> Instead of evacuating the people, the mayor ordered the refugees to the Superdome and Convention Center without adequate security and *no provisions for food, water and sanitary conditions*. As a result people died, and there was even rape committed, in these facilities. Mayor Nagin failed in his responsibility to provide public safety and to manage the orderly evacuation of the citizens of New Orleans. Now he wants to blame Gov. Blanco and the Federal Emergency Management Agency. In an emergency the first requirement is for the city's emergency center to be linked to the state emergency operations center. This was not done.





> *The federal government does not have the authority to intervene in a state emergency without the request of a governor. President Bush declared an emergency prior to Katrina hitting New Orleans, so the only action needed for federal assistance was for Gov. Blanco to request the specific type of assistance she needed. She failed to send a timely request for specific aid*.



Gov. Blanco and Mayor Nagin failed their constituents.  

so pull your race card.  it's complete BS.  the link above is perhaps the most honest and accurate opinion to come out of this tragedy.  

all those people were screwed over because of their race...?  you obviously have no idea just how ignorant that sounds.

and just in case you're so inclined to question this guys opinion, please don't.  he knows a little about how states deal with natural disasters.



 :whip:


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## Makalakumu (Sep 8, 2005)

Sapper6 said:
			
		

> all those people were screwed over because of their race...? you obviously have no idea just how ignorant that sounds.


Please find where I said this.  I said race was a factor, not the factor.  With floods and deep south, it has always _been_ a factor.

Basically, I agree, a HUGE factor is, as people have been pointing out, when the **** hit the fan, people passed the buck.


----------



## Tgace (Sep 8, 2005)

Did you hear the latest. The governor (or is it the Mayor) is ordering the Guard and LEO's to stop supplying the holdouts with food and water to force them to evacuate. The Military is ignoring the order and giving these people what they need. If you want them out try talking them out or dragging them out if needs be. You dont starve Americans to get your way.


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## Sapper6 (Sep 8, 2005)

i agree someone failed miserably in performing in their job.  i do not agree racism was a factor.  to believe this you must concede that these people were left there by someone else simply because of their race.  it's not that simple.


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## Sapper6 (Sep 8, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Did you hear the latest. The governor (or is it the Mayor) is ordering the Guard and LEO's to stop supplying the holdouts with food and water to force them to evacuate. The Military is ignoring the order and giving these people what they need. If you want them out try talking them out or dragging them out if needs be. You dont starve Americans to get your way.



this is sad and pathetic handling.  it's no suprise to hear the military ignoring this absurd order, they know better.


----------



## 7starmantis (Sep 8, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Please find where I said this. I said race was a factor, not the factor. With floods and deep south, it has always _been_ a factor.


 Please tell me youre joking. Floods in deep south have always had a race factor? So the rain or the storm doesn't care about black people? You can't possibly present any kind of rational argument to support a conspiracy to drown african americans with natural disasters. Thats just simply a conspiracy theory.

 Racism exists because of people who like to keep reminding everyone that it exists. I think many of the "top leaders" of the "civil rights" movement today are the biggest contributors to racism in america today. Let me give you an example. I've been confronted with racism a couple times in my life. Twice that I really remember. The first time was in college, the guy made a crack and tried to get in my face, and I jumped on him and beat his ***. The second time was right out of college, I kept my cool and wrote the guy off as ignorant. My best friend and roommate from college several years later was talking to me about racism. We got to talking about personal experiences.....guess which example is the only one he remembered. He was there for both of them. Exactly, he only remembered the one incident were I made an *** of myself and made damn sure everyone would remember it. That does more than all the white hooded cross burners in the south could ever dream of doing. Its the martyr syndrome.


  7sm


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## 7starmantis (Sep 8, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Did you hear the latest. The governor (or is it the Mayor) is ordering the Guard and LEO's to stop supplying the holdouts with food and water to force them to evacuate. The Military is ignoring the order and giving these people what they need. If you want them out try talking them out or dragging them out if needs be. You dont starve Americans to get your way.


  I agree with you, but there comes a point. What follows could be construde as semantics, but bear with me.



> You dont starve Americans to get your way.


 There comes a point where Americans need to feed themselves. This is a bit off in reality, but I have a big issue with people expecting things. As a human being or an american, the responsibility for feeding myself or keeping from starving actually rests on me, not the government giving me food. 
 Now, that sounds harsh in this situation and I agree it is a bit, but we have to keep in check certain feelings. I actually spent time in the area delivering supplies and helping transport "guests" back to east texas. What pissed me off the most were the angry people who were enraged because we weren't doing enough for them....do some things for your own damn self once in a while! There were people "fighting mad" because no one had told them were they were going after they got them to safety. Your life was just saved....try to be gratefull.

  Ok, off my soap box now...discussion may continue. 

  7sm


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## Tgace (Sep 8, 2005)

I agree with you 7sm....at the root of this whole problem cant one say that the decision to live in a city below sea level was the initial reason for these peoples troubles? 

My point is that the politicians are turning this into a turf war, The governor of La. refuses to allow the guard to be federalized. IMO because that would take them out of her control.


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## arnisador (Sep 9, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> ....at the root of this whole problem cant one say that the decision to live in a city below sea level was the initial reason for these peoples troubles?


 Part of me agrees...but part of me thinks of Calif. and earthquakes, Florida and hurricanes, even NYC and crime. Should everyone live where it's "safe"?

 Yet, in my gut I tend to agree...live below sea level on the oceanside, and you gotta expect trouble. I'm not happy about paying tens to hundreds of billions to rebuild something that relies on water not flowing downhill.


----------



## Shorin Ryuu (Sep 9, 2005)

Time to cite Fox News and say the American Red Cross and the Salvation Army were not allowed access to New Orleans to give supplies, place personnel and use equipment before Katrina hit, the day it was hit, and after it hit. By who? The Louisiana government, of course. They didn't want to encourage people to stay longer...(more than the mayor was, at any rate).





Now, I know most of my liberal colleagues will scoff and say that is conservative crazy talk. Fortunately, CNN has picked up the story (which only Fox News was reporting earlier). Only they didn't quite pick it up that well...
http://www.cnn.com/2005/uS/09/08/katrina.redcross/index.html

"The national president of the American Red Cross, Marsha Evans, first made the request to undertake the operation during a visit to the state on September 1, three days after Hurricane Katrina struck, a local Red Cross chapter official said."

However, that is a misleading quote. They fail to mention that it was only one of numerous requests for access that was denied.
Days after Katrina hit, they were denied access. Right after Katrina hit, they were denied access. The day Katrina hit, they were denied access. The days before Katrina hit, they were denied access...All by the Louisiana government. But the quote implies the relief effort was only ready to go on 1 September, when in fact such was not the case. They were ready before the Hurricane even hit. They were just denied access at the state and local level.


I look forward to the cognitive dissonance and backpedalling in the media when more (and correct) news of this comes out.


----------



## Tgace (Sep 9, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> Part of me agrees...but part of me thinks of Calif. and earthquakes, Florida and hurricanes, even NYC and crime. Should everyone live where it's "safe"?
> 
> Yet, in my gut I tend to agree...live below sea level on the oceanside, and you gotta expect trouble. I'm not happy about paying tens to hundreds of billions to rebuild something that relies on water not flowing downhill.


The difference being that they were living in a MANMADE basin. Lets move into a place they pumped the ocean out of in 1910. The idea of looking UP to see the horizon.....Brrrr.


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## Tgace (Sep 9, 2005)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> What pissed me off the most were the angry people who were enraged because we weren't doing enough for them....do some things for your own damn self once in a while! There were people "fighting mad" because no one had told them were they were going after they got them to safety. Your life was just saved....try to be gratefull.


Welcome to the world of public service pal.


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## michaeledward (Sep 9, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> The difference being that they were living in a MANMADE basin. Lets move into a place they pumped the ocean out of in 1910. The idea of looking UP to see the horizon.....Brrrr.


Yeah ... like the city didn't exist before 1910. 

But, it looks like our conservative friends in congress learned a bunch from their liberal predecessors.... never met a problem they couldn't fix by throwing money at it. 

And I don't know if I would be grateful if I was put on a plane and told I am going 1800 miles from everything I've ever known - which is what happened with the displaced citizens flown into Massachusetts yesterday. There was no choice given to where they would go. Some of whom have *never* been out of New Orleans before - how dare those ungrateful bastards be ungrateful.


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## Tgace (Sep 9, 2005)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Orleans



> Much of the city is located below sea level between the Mississippi River and Lake Pontchartrain, so the city is surrounded by levees. Until the early 20th century, construction was largely limited to the slightly higher ground along old natural river levees and bayous, since much of the rest of the land was swampy and subject to frequent flooding. This gave the 19th century city the shape of a crescent along a bend of the Mississippi, the origin of the nickname The Crescent City. In the 1910s engineer and inventor A. Baldwin Wood enacted his ambitious plan to drain the city, including large pumps of his own design which are still used. All rain water must be pumped up to the canals which drain into Lake Pontchartrain. Wood's pumps and drainage allowed the city to expand greatly in area. However, pumping of groundwater from underneath the city has resulted in subsidence. The subsidence greatly increased the flood risk,


----------



## modarnis (Sep 9, 2005)

michaeledward said:
			
		

> And I don't know if I would be grateful if I was put on a plane and told I am going 1800 miles from everything I've ever known - which is what happened with the displaced citizens flown into Massachusetts yesterday. There was no choice given to where they would go. Some of whom have *never* been out of New Orleans before - how dare those ungrateful bastards be ungrateful.




I doubt grateful is relevant at this stage.  Safe and clean versus hot, wet, fetid and disease prone, people will be more able to adjust to change given the former option.  Any way you slice it, its a bad situation, made constantly worse by people interjecting race and politics into the situation, rather than focusing on helping displaced people regain some semblance of order and control in their lives


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## Tgace (Sep 9, 2005)

I would say that if you expect the government to take care of you thats what happens. 

I want the government to take care of me but I want them to do it MY way??


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## Makalakumu (Sep 9, 2005)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> Please tell me youre joking. Floods in deep south have always had a race factor? So the rain or the storm doesn't care about black people? You can't possibly present any kind of rational argument to support a conspiracy to drown african americans with natural disasters. Thats just simply a conspiracy theory.


Conspiracy theory my ***.  I suppose all of the African Americans who feel mistreated and that race was a huge issue are "just making it up" that in itself shows a fair amount of racism.  Wanna get educated?  Read the following.

http://slate.msn.com/id/2124688/

Or you can listen to NPR's story on Day to Day here...

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4829960

Here is a little historical evidence on the issue of race and floods...

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/flood/filmmore/ps_headlines.html

I'll say it again.  Race isn't the only factor, but it played a part.


----------



## 7starmantis (Sep 9, 2005)

The bottom line is that this is a horrible tragedy that has been brought on by a natural disaster. As long as there are humans in office there are going to be decisions based on info, experience, and a little bit of "gut". Humans will allways make mistakes, regardless of whether they are democrat, republican, black, white, or red. There are more good decisions here than bad, but we only choose to see the bad. Anyone know there were guardsmen in the city before the storm hit and the levees broke? They were there at the super dome, just not enough of them. Hindsight is always 20/20 we can see now that there weren't enough here or there or whatever, but before the storm hit, how can you really know for sure? I've been through a cat 4 and cat 5 hurricane, its really anything but predictable. There were errors made, they need to be addressed, but finger pointing and conspiracy theories play no part in helping the future.



			
				upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Conspiracy theory my ***. I suppose all of the African Americans who feel mistreated and that race was a huge issue are "just making it up" that in itself shows a fair amount of racism. Wanna get educated? Read the following.
> 
> http://slate.msn.com/id/2124688/
> 
> ...


 C'mon, are you being serious? I don't even understand your point here. I didn't say anyone was making something up (although I do not see how that shows racism in and of itself as you stated) but just because someone cries wolf doesn't mean there's really a wild animal coming towards you. We dont want to get into the race game and talk about ancestors and who had it the worst and such, I'm native american. Lets look at today, not yesterday and be real, show me one serious, fact that shows a connection to anyone trying to drown african americans in floods in the deep south. Your claim is humerous at best. For every voice that says an opinion in one way I can give you 5 that say the other. I'm talking about hard evidence with facts that show your theory. Your links spoke about a storm that hit african americans harder than whites....so that is racism? Katrina is racist? The hurrican went after black americans rather than white americans? Why is it not just that katrina hurt americans? Its just naive to say race had a factor in who was hurt by the storm.

  7sm


----------



## shesulsa (Sep 9, 2005)

Survivor Story: 6-Year-Old Leads Five Toddlers, Baby to Safety


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## Makalakumu (Sep 9, 2005)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> There were errors made, they need to be addressed, but finger pointing and conspiracy theories play no part in helping the future.


Errors is an understatement.  This disaster was probably one of the most anticipated disasters in American history.  Hell, _I predicted_ the outcome in another thread as soon as I heard where the hurricane was heading and I'm just some hack from Wisconsin.  

The bottom line really is that we had a failure of government on every single level.  The "real blame game" is a game of shifting the blame to everyone else.  New Orleans mayor blames Fema.  The governer blames Fema.  The Bush Administration blames local officials...but they all share part of it.  

The real problem is systemic.  Any time you have a failure that stretches from the top down, this is the case.  The problem is that a government that cuts taxes and shrinks itself during times when there is no need is unable to respond during times when the need is great.  This is the ultimate failure of conservative policies and it is the reason why they are working so hard to hide it.  



> C'mon, are you being serious? I don't even understand your point here. I didn't say anyone was making something up (although I do not see how that shows racism in and of itself as you stated) but just because someone cries wolf doesn't mean there's really a wild animal coming towards you.


 
The sources I posted are more then enough to see that Katrina exposed some raw racial issues.  You actually have to read them and maybe even listen to the NPR segment.  



> We dont want to get into the race game and talk about ancestors and who had it the worst and such, I'm native american.


Hmmm, so am I...partly.  Enough to spend part of my life on a reservation.



> Lets look at today, not yesterday and be real, show me one serious, fact that shows a connection to anyone trying to drown african americans in floods in the deep south.


This is asanine.  Do you really expect me to find an office memo stating, "Attention - don't build that levee higher, the negroes ain't worth it..."  If that is your bar, I don't think you'll find much racism in this country...except in Texas where Tom Delay's henchmen were recorded as they referred to native americans as stupid trogdolytes.  

Part of the NPR segment is an essay written by a person my age.  It was about town in Mississippi...the one where parts of Forest Gump was filmed.  This town was regularly flooded by the river, so local and state officials built a levee _through the middle of the town_.  Baptist Bottom, as the neighborhood was called, was the lowest, poorest, and blackest area of town and it was built _outside_ of the levee.  

When the floods came, their houses were continually destroyed.  People died.  And whole families were displaced.  Eventually, the poor and black, having no where else to go, rebuilt, only to suffer the same fate.  Then the Federal Government bought out Baptist Bottom.  They wanted to rebuild the old levee and didn't want to spend more money on helping people whose homes were destroyed.  

The bottom line is that this action forced the town to integrate.  This action forced blacks and whites to live together and think about the deep racial issues that literally divided their community.  The auther left off by saying that New Orleans could learn from this lesson.



> Your claim is humerous at best.


I don't find anything funny about the above story.  I'm a bit shocked that you do. 



> For every voice that says an opinion in one way I can give you 5 that say the other.


Go for it.



> I'm talking about hard evidence with facts that show your theory.


Look at the people.  Look at who is poor.  Look at who was left behind.  Look at who got out.  



> Your links spoke about a storm that hit african americans harder than whites....so that is racism? Katrina is racist? The hurrican went after black americans rather than white americans? Why is it not just that katrina hurt americans? Its just naive to say race had a factor in who was hurt by the storm.


This is so absurd I don't even know where to begin.  A storm being racist...can anyone say strawman?


----------



## Tgace (Sep 9, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> The problem is that a government that cuts taxes and shrinks itself during times when there is no need is unable to respond during times when the need is great. This is the ultimate failure of conservative policies and it is the reason why they are working so hard to hide it.


High taxes and big government..always the answer.


----------



## michaeledward (Sep 9, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Hell, _I predicted_ the outcome in another thread as soon as I heard where the hurricane was heading and I'm just some hack from Wisconsin.


And I have wanted to applaud your foresight for two weeks now. And yet, it somehow seems in appropriate to say.

So, with regret, thank you for your insight.


----------



## Tgace (Sep 9, 2005)

Hell...what was that last big hurricane that was bearing down on New Orleans but veered off at the last minute? Shouldnt that have been a wake up call?


----------



## Sapper6 (Sep 9, 2005)

Upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Look at the people. Look at who is poor. Look at who was left behind. Look at who got out.



this is not being debated, we know this.  they HAD NO way out, except unless, the city steps up and follows the protocol THEY wrote.  the freely stated it was THEIR OWN RESPONSIBILITY to evac persons that could not on their own with school and city transit buses.  this was written in black and white.  

i certainly don't dispute people are at fault here, i just disagree when it comes to who is being blamed.  i don't give a **** who the hell the president is, even if it were the most leftist bastard on the planet, it was not his fault.


----------



## Sapper6 (Sep 9, 2005)

michaeledward said:
			
		

> And I have wanted to applaud your foresight for two weeks now. And yet, it somehow seems in appropriate to say.
> 
> So, with regret, thank you for your insight.



get a room. :inlove:


----------



## KenpoEMT (Sep 9, 2005)

There is no way that this is an issue of racism.  If anything, it is an issue of class.  How many wealthy families were decimated?

If the poor areas of New Orleans were populated soley by poverty stricken white people, no one would have been in any greater hurry to rescue them, and there would not have been such a hooplah over it in the media.

IMO, the actions of our leaders demonstrate the following perspective: the wealthy upper class is supreme; the middle class has it's uses; the lower class is a useless drain of society's resources.  Isn't that the mind-set of our elected kings/queens?  The lower class is useful only during elections.


----------



## 7starmantis (Sep 9, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Errors is an understatement. This disaster was probably one of the most anticipated disasters in American history. Hell, _I predicted_ the outcome in another thread as soon as I heard where the hurricane was heading and I'm just some hack from Wisconsin.


 Making big claims does not a point make. I dont argue that anyone could see the inherent disaster, anyone who knows what the words "sea level" mean should be able to see that disaster. But your placing blame on race because of who was affected. You said, "look who got out". What does that have to do with race? Where there border guards at N.O. letting through anyone not of the african american race? Your making a point about social status and "look who's poor" which has absolutely nothing to do with this disaster or this discussion. Its statements like that which help further the blind headstrong beliefs of incoherant theories like, there is racism, I just can't prove it. Its proven by statements like, "Not every african american who has had to deal with racism could be making it up". Its faulty logic on its simplest level. 



			
				upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> The bottom line really is that we had a failure of government on every single level. The "real blame game" is a game of shifting the blame to everyone else. New Orleans mayor blames Fema. The governer blames Fema. The Bush Administration blames local officials...but they all share part of it.


 Could you outline exactly the points of failure on every level of the government for me? You keep sayin blame, what is the blame for? For not evacuating? For not lettin the black people out if they wanted out? What? I would be really interested to see your layout of every level of government and their blame or fault for this natural disaster.



			
				upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> The real problem is systemic. Any time you have a failure that stretches from the top down, this is the case. The problem is that a government that cuts taxes and shrinks itself during times when there is no need is unable to respond during times when the need is great. This is the ultimate failure of conservative policies and it is the reason why they are working so hard to hide it.


 So this is really about conservative politics and the need for big government and not about racism or natural disasters?



			
				upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> The sources I posted are more then enough to see that Katrina exposed some raw racial issues. You actually have to read them and maybe even listen to the NPR segment.


 Your _***_umptions are astounding. I read your links and listened to them and found no true facts only opinions and thin claims. Would you mind also listing out the raw racial issues Katrina exposed? 




			
				upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Hmmm, so am I...partly. Enough to spend part of my life on a reservation.


Congradulations, what reservation? I'm half comanche and grew up as a member of the comanche nation on a couple of reservations. My uncle is the liason between the US Government and the indian nations, I've visited every reservation in america in my life, be interesting to know which one you spent time at.



			
				upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> This is asanine. Do you really expect me to find an office memo stating, "Attention - don't build that levee higher, the negroes ain't worth it..." If that is your bar, I don't think you'll find much racism in this country...except in Texas where Tom Delay's henchmen were recorded as they referred to native americans as stupid trogdolytes.


 What should be the bar then? If enough people say it, it must be true? Thats simply not enough for me, sorry. So not building the levee "higher" is one of the racial issues Katrina exposed? You should do some research on the core of engineers, their cash flow, their priorities, their orders and who they cam from and all their racial backgrounds. It seems to me that racism is important to you, you keep trying to prove it exists, that is the largest benefactor of racism in america today in my opinion. Your putting so much emphasis on race, why? Those who cry faul the loudest in racial issues tend to be the least colorblind. 



			
				upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Part of the NPR segment is an essay written by a person my age. It was about town in Mississippi...the one where parts of Forest Gump was filmed. This town was regularly flooded by the river, so local and state officials built a levee _through the middle of the town_.  Baptist Bottom, as the neighborhood was called, was the lowest, poorest, and blackest area of town and it was built _outside_ of the levee.
> 
> When the floods came, their houses were continually destroyed. People died. And whole families were displaced. Eventually, the poor and black, having no where else to go, rebuilt, only to suffer the same fate. Then the Federal Government bought out Baptist Bottom. They wanted to rebuild the old levee and didn't want to spend more money on helping people whose homes were destroyed.
> 
> The bottom line is that this action forced the town to integrate. This action forced blacks and whites to live together and think about the deep racial issues that literally divided their community. The auther left off by saying that New Orleans could learn from this lesson.


 So because the author states New Orleans could learn from it, he must be proving that this disaster is racialy motivated. His opinion means little to me. See, the levees of N.O. protected black and white alike. There were no people exiled outside the levees. The levees failed white, black, hispanic, native american, and probably every ethnic group you could imagine. I can take a sensus at The Marble Slab and find a large percentage of people who like ice cream, but that wouldn't really tell me anything about the population as a whole now would it? Because the poor in that area happen to be black, that *has* to mean something, some conspiracy to keep the black people poor and wet?



			
				upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> I don't find anything funny about the above story. I'm a bit shocked that you do.


 Actually, you shouldn't try to twist my words around. I said I found your claim was humorous. Hmm, maybe you should listen to people before making up your mind about them. Seems you aren't too great at keepi your facts straight even with me. 



			
				upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Look at the people. Look at who is poor. Look at who was left behind. Look at who got out.


 wow....what does that mean? So because a majority of black people are stranded in a mostly black area, this proves with hard facts that this was racially motivated? You can't be serious? 



			
				upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> This is so absurd I don't even know where to begin. A storm being racist...can anyone say strawman?


 Hey man, your the one saying "look who was affected". There is no outside force on the hurrican that tells it where to go. N.O. actually got the least of the storm itself, check out mississippi.

  7sm


----------



## Makalakumu (Sep 9, 2005)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> Making big claims does not a point make. I dont argue that anyone could see the inherent disaster, anyone who knows what the words "sea level" mean should be able to see that disaster. But your placing blame on race because of who was affected.


You refuse to look at historical examples and you refuse to connect the present to those examples. This effort at denial is impressive, but futile.



> You said, "look who got out". What does that have to do with race?


Absolutely everything. People who had the means to get out, got out. People who didn't, didn't. New Orleans is 60% african american, but that is not what you see of the people left over. I'm hard pressed to find a white person who isn't a cop, a guardsmen, sick, or elderly. Look at the pictures in the superdome and you'll see the only all black crowd that building ever had.



> Where there border guards at N.O. letting through anyone not of the african american race?


Save the histrionics, you're starting to sound like a liberal... 



> Your making a point about social status and "look who's poor" which has absolutely nothing to do with this disaster or this discussion.


Why not? Who are the people who are suffering? They are poor and black. This thread is about the desperate state of New Orleans and I'm making the point about who is actually suffering this tragedy.



> Its statements like that which help further the blind headstrong beliefs of incoherant theories like, there is racism, I just can't prove it. Its proven by statements like, "Not every african american who has had to deal with racism could be making it up". Its faulty logic on its simplest level.


Yeah, incoherant like this paragraph... 

Are you trying to say that people who claim racism exists are just making it up again? You could try some education, you know. Race Matters by Cornell West is a good book. This is the second time in this thread that I've referred to it. 



> Could you outline exactly the points of failure on every level of the government for me?


Read the newspaper. Surf the internet.



> You keep sayin blame, what is the blame for?


After you surf the internet and read the newspaper you should have plenty of reason to say WTF.



> For not evacuating?


Blame the victim. 



> For not lettin the black people out if they wanted out? What?


More absurdity.



> I would be really interested to see your layout of every level of government and their blame or fault for this natural disaster.


I've posted it earlier.



> So this is really about conservative politics and the need for big government and not about racism or natural disasters?


Racism is an issue, but the bigger fault, IMHO lies in the failure of conservatism to actually make government work in hard times.



> Your _***_umptions are astounding. I read your links and listened to them and found no true facts only opinions and thin claims.


People interviewed and gave you their direct experiences. I provided you with historical context. All I can say is...



> you are so unable to have any logical or meaningful conversation. Glad I'm not so hamstrung by ideology


And



> I agree with the persons post





> Would you mind also listing out the raw racial issues Katrina exposed


Poverty and race. Who the government really cares about.



> Congradulations, what reservation? I'm half comanche and grew up as a member of the comanche nation on a couple of reservations. My uncle is the liason between the US Government and the indian nations, I've visited every reservation in america in my life, be interesting to know which one you spent time at.


Pine Ridge in South Dakota. My father lived there.



> What should be the bar then? If enough people say it, it must be true? Thats simply not enough for me, sorry.


Historical context and evidence of continuation. 



> So not building the levee "higher" is one of the racial issues Katrina exposed? You should do some research on the core of engineers, their cash flow, their priorities, their orders and who they cam from and all their racial backgrounds.


Okay. I've done a little reading in the past. Here is what I've discovered. The people who decide the corps funding are predominantly white. The people who suffer when the corps can't build adequate levees are predominately black. Communities that have lots of resources (white ones) tend to have their interests catered too with large barrels of pork, communities that have no political power end up under water (black ones). Maybe you need to do a bit of research...



> It seems to me that racism is important to you, you keep trying to prove it exists, that is the largest benefactor of racism in america today in my opinion.


I'm not sure what you are saying. Your use of the word benefactor has me perplexed. Perhaps you mean propagator...which would imply that people who imply racism are just making it up.



> Your putting so much emphasis on race, why?


I just call it like I see it. I'm white enough to know it doesn't look good, but I just don't care. I know what is right. 



> So because the author states New Orleans could learn from it, he must be proving that this disaster is racialy motivated. His opinion means little to me.


The story provides regional context. It shows that floods, racism and class are intimately tied throughout the deep south. 



> See, the levees of N.O. protected black and white alike. There were no people exiled outside the levees. The levees failed white, black, hispanic, native american, and probably every ethnic group you could imagine.


Yet, who was left behind? All you need to do is look at the pictures... 



> I can take a sensus at The Marble Slab and find a large percentage of people who like ice cream, but that wouldn't really tell me anything about the population as a whole now would it? Because the poor in that area happen to be black, that *has* to mean something, some conspiracy to keep the black people poor and wet?


Its not a conspiracy to keep black people poor and wet, its about who is worth protecting. Its about who is worth helping. Its about who is really suffering.



> Actually, you shouldn't try to twist my words around. I said I found your claim was humorous. Hmm, maybe you should listen to people before making up your mind about them. Seems you aren't too great at keepi your facts straight even with me.


My claim included the story above as historical context. You stated that you found this (my claim) humorous. I don't see anything humorous about the story above or my claim. If you want to laugh off the fact that this flood, like every other flood in that area, affects predominately poor black people go ahead. 



> wow....what does that mean? So because a majority of black people are stranded in a mostly black area, this proves with hard facts that this was racially motivated? You can't be serious?


New Orleans is 60% black. Where is the other 40%? Look at the historical context. Take a look at the regional context. There is a pattern.


----------



## Tgace (Sep 9, 2005)

Didnt look like 60% of the city was left to sit through the storm. So even out of that 60% it looks like many were able to care for themselves and get out.....


----------



## Makalakumu (Sep 9, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Didnt look like 60% of the city was left to sit through the storm. So even out of that 60% it look like many were able to care for themselves and get out.....


http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4829446


----------



## Sapper6 (Sep 9, 2005)

*Ocala homeowners association says evacuees are not welcome*



> While communities throughout the Sunshine State and elsewhere are welcoming Hurricane Katrina's storm-weary survivors, Coggins and others in the 500-home southwest Ocala subdivision were told by their homeowners association that their deed restrictions prohibited them from doing the same.



real American of them... :jedi1:


----------



## arnisador (Sep 10, 2005)

The story of the 6 year old leading younger kids to safety is simultaneously uplifting and disheartening. It's great he did it...it's sad it came to that. I had very conflicted emotions when I first saw that story.


----------



## modarnis (Sep 10, 2005)

>>>Quote:
Your making a point about social status and "look who's poor" which has absolutely nothing to do with this disaster or this discussion.  

Why not? Who are the people who are suffering? They are poor and black. This thread is about the desperate state of New Orleans and I'm making the point about who is actually suffering this tragedy.>>>


Just when I think I can't get more disgusted, a statement like this proves me wrong.  In your peculiar world, poor black people are the only ones worthy of suffering?  Here's a reality check, of the dozen or so people I keep in touch with since I left New Orleans ( white, black, asian, and even gay)  10 of them have lost everything houses, businesses, everything they worked for, their American Dream.  I wouldn't want to be in their shoes, regardless of their race.   One friend calls me crying routinely, just to vent because she can't easily explain to her 2 year old why they can't go home.

Bottom line, its a human tragedy, its widespread, and injecting racial politics in the midst of the crisis does nothing to help anyone, period.  Mr. UpNorth, you are a google master and find lots of articles and spend a load of time clicking your keys.  Why don't you step up, put some waders on, head down to N.O. and be part of the solution rather than a messenger of problems with the system that fails everyone.  I'll be heading down in a few weeks with boots, shovels and supplies to help my friends, and any of their neighbors in the racially mixed neighborhood dig out the mud.  Action speaks louder than rhetoric


----------



## 7starmantis (Sep 10, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> You refuse to look at historical examples and you refuse to connect the present to those examples. This effort at denial is impressive, but futile.
> 
> Absolutely everything. People who had the means to get out, got out. People who didn't, didn't. New Orleans is 60% african american, but that is not what you see of the people left over. I'm hard pressed to find a white person who isn't a cop, a guardsmen, sick, or elderly. Look at the pictures in the superdome and you'll see the only all black crowd that building ever had.


 Your bcoming a master of the obvious. Make a connection. Your stating obvious facts but not connecting it to racism. Everyone can see that the people left are predominatly black, ok, so connect that somehow to racism. Here is something interseting, check out this photo journal of a guy in N.O. during the storm (he's white in color if thats ok with you, but he's really not white). its interesting to see National Guardsmen in the area helping before the flooding even occurs. Link
 In this series of pictures you see many white, black, and all races. Your missing a huge link from an obvious connection to racism. Because the poor people left are black shows racism? Thats politics not connected with this disaster. Your saying "look at who was left". No one was "left" people who evacuated did so on their own terms with their own money and their own cars (mostly). I have a freind who left his brand new Jag parked in front of his house so they could take his wife's SUV and carry more people out. His jag is now a wind chime hanging from his front porch. I've been down there twice allready and I can tell you the rescue opporation is uniracial.



			
				upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Why not? Who are the people who are suffering? They are poor and black. This thread is about the desperate state of New Orleans and I'm making the point about who is actually suffering this tragedy.[/QUOT}E]
> So poor blacks have the market on suffering in this tragedy? Thats a pretty racist statement if you ask me, your ignoring the suffering of others to say its only poor blacks who are suffering. Thats the kind of statements I would consider racist.
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## michaeledward (Sep 10, 2005)

Saw this today ... 




> "... I went to Florida a few days after President Bush did to observe the damage from Hurricane Andrew. I had dealt with a lot of natural disasters as governor, including floods, droughts, and tornadoes, but I had never seen anything like this. I was surprised to hear complaints from both local officials and residents about how the Federal Emergency Management Agency was handling the aftermath of the hurricane. Traditionally, the job of FEMA director was given to a political supporter of the President who wanted some plum position but who had no experience with emergencies. I made a mental note to avoid that mistake if I won. Voters don't chose a President based on how he'll handle disasters, but if they're faced with one themselves, it quickly becomes the most important issue in their lives."
> 
> -Bill Clinton, My Life (p. 428)


----------



## shesulsa (Sep 10, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> The story of the 6 year old leading younger kids to safety is simultaneously uplifting and disheartening. It's great he did it...it's sad it came to that. I had very conflicted emotions when I first saw that story.


 A friend of mine who worked with Doctors Without Borders for a handful of years told me once that you can measure two important things by observing the impact on the young: the magnitude of the disaster and effectiveness of the government.

 When even political supporters of the current regime complain that this was unacceptable and express concern for our preparedness for any kind of tragedy, you know the status quo is an abomination.

  And Technopunk started an excellent thread essentially saying, 'so what are we going to DO about it?'

 We can keep throwing aid towards victims - which we absolutely should! But we have a much bigger problem, people. Our government.


----------



## michaeledward (Sep 10, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> The story of the 6 year old leading younger kids to safety is simultaneously uplifting and disheartening. It's great he did it...it's sad it came to that. I had very conflicted emotions when I first saw that story.


Submitted for your consideration

http://www.nola.com/newsflash/national/index.ssf?/base/national-51/112631754297522.xml&storylist=national



> KNOXVILLE, Tenn. (AP)  Al Gore helped airlift some 270 Katrina evacuees on two private charters from New Orleans, acting at the urging of a doctor who saved the life of the former vice president's son.
> 
> ...
> However, Dr. Anderson Spickard, who is Gore's personal physician and accompanied him on the flights, said: "Gore told me he wanted to do this because like all of us he wanted to seize the opportunity to do what one guy can do, given the assets that he has."
> ...


----------



## Makalakumu (Sep 10, 2005)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> A pattern of people with money being able to do things people without money can't do? I agree with that, but nothing further than that is shown in a historical context.


Then you haven't looked or even payed attention. The pattern is that over and over again, the people _who lose the most_, including their lives, are poor and black.

Look at the historical context.  Look at what happened.  Think about how we can not let it happen again.

I'll repost this link, the professor is much more eloquent and educated about these issues then I am...

_http://www.npr.org/templates/rundowns/rundown.php?prgId=3



Morning Edition, September 2, 2005 · Craig E. Colten, professor of geography and anthropology at Louisiana State University, says race played a role in the New Orleans' level of preparedness for Hurricane Katrina.

Click to expand...

 http://www.npr.org/templates/rundowns/rundown.php?prgId=3_

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4829446

Please listen to this and think about it...


----------



## Makalakumu (Sep 10, 2005)

modarnis said:
			
		

> Just when I think I can't get more disgusted, a statement like this proves me wrong. In your peculiar world, poor black people are the only ones worthy of suffering?


That's not true at all.  You can save your indignation.  If you take the time to read what I'm writing, I'm talking about the people who are left in the city.  I'm referring to those who could not get out...who, in my opinion, are in much worse shape then those who did.  People seem to get really upset when someone mentions race in this country...



> Here's a reality check, of the dozen or so people I keep in touch with since I left New Orleans ( white, black, asian, and even gay) 10 of them have lost everything houses, businesses, everything they worked for, their American Dream. I wouldn't want to be in their shoes, regardless of their race. One friend calls me crying routinely, just to vent because she can't easily explain to her 2 year old why they can't go home.


 
You make a good point here, however, I still the think the people who got out are in much better shape then the people who couldn't get out.



> Bottom line, its a human tragedy, its widespread, and injecting racial politics in the midst of the crisis does nothing to help anyone, period.


I did not "inject" anything.  I only uncovered what was, and has always been, there.  Part of any solution, IMO, means dealing with some of these issues.  You can't plan an evacuation and expect to leave all of the poor and sick behind.  You can't build levees that will fail and hope that only the lowest, poorest and blackest neighborhoods are flooded.  We have to stop spending huge amounts of money to protect those with the most influence and spend that money to protect everyone.  



> Mr. UpNorth, you are a google master and find lots of articles and spend a load of time clicking your keys. Why don't you step up, put some waders on, head down to N.O. and be part of the solution rather than a messenger of problems with the system that fails everyone. I'll be heading down in a few weeks with boots, shovels and supplies to help my friends, and any of their neighbors in the racially mixed neighborhood dig out the mud. Action speaks louder than rhetoric.


People can be part of a solution in many ways.  Some can run down and lend a hand directly.  Some can write some checks and coordinate from far away.  And some can discuss how to prevent the tragedy in the future.  All of this is worthwhile...and dealing with the race issue is part of the solution.


----------



## Shorin Ryuu (Sep 10, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> > For not evacuating?
> 
> 
> Blame the victim.


No, I think a good point was brought up here.  What culpability lies with those who refused to evacuate?  This has nothing to do with the response afterwards.  Everyone is trying to be helped regardless of who they are and what they did or did not do.  But again, how much blame do we place on those who chose not to leave?  Can we truly say they were "left behind"?  The fact that Mayor Nagin sprung to action and declared a forced evacuation...last Tuesday...illustrates you still have a lot of these people left.


----------



## Makalakumu (Sep 10, 2005)

Shorin Ryuu said:
			
		

> No, I think a good point was brought up here. What culpability lies with those who refused to evacuate? This has nothing to do with the response afterwards. Everyone is trying to be helped regardless of who they are and what they did or did not do. But again, how much blame do we place on those who chose not to leave? Can we truly say they were "left behind"? The fact that Mayor Nagin sprung to action and declared a forced evacuation...last Tuesday...illustrates you still have a lot of these people left.


Some people that could have left, didn't, but that isn't everyone and it isn't even a large fraction.  Where do you go if you have no where to go and no way to get there?

An evacuation plan that leaves the most vulnerable 20% behind is unconscionable.


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## Shorin Ryuu (Sep 10, 2005)

How do you know the numbers of those that refused to leave?  I don't think I know them already.  Or is that another one of your assumptions?So this raises the question, what efforts do you know of were made to evacuate people before hand?  (See, I'm trying to orient the debate towards fact rather than accusation)


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## Makalakumu (Sep 10, 2005)

Shorin Ryuu said:
			
		

> How do you know the numbers of those that refused to leave? I don't think I know them already. Or is that another one of your assumptions?So this raises the question, what efforts do you know of were made to evacuate people before hand? (See, I'm trying to orient the debate towards fact rather than accusation)


I am assuming and if I'm wrong, then I'm wrong.  I'll admit it.  However, I have a gut feeling about it...I'm very curious to see some hard numbers on this.


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## michaeledward (Sep 10, 2005)

As I understand it from the reports I have seen, Evacuation plans for New Orleans have always anticipated that approximately 20% of the city would remain behind. 

To clarify that issue, however, I would recommend looking to the Hurricane Pam study.


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## Rich Parsons (Sep 11, 2005)

michaeledward said:
			
		

> As I understand it from the reports I have seen, Evacuation plans for New Orleans have always anticipated that approximately 20% of the city would remain behind.
> 
> To clarify that issue, however, I would recommend looking to the Hurricane Pam study.




If the population of the city is 80% African Americans (* number from this thread or other thread on this subject *), and 20% of the people stay behind, then this means that 16% of those who choose to stay or could not get out, would be African American. this means that for every 4 African Americans, there should have been someone of another race present.


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## michaeledward (Sep 11, 2005)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> If the population of the city is 80% African Americans (* number from this thread or other thread on this subject *), and 20% of the people stay behind, then this means that 16% of those who choose to stay or could not get out, would be African American. this means that for every 4 African Americans, there should have been someone of another race present.


Only if we disregard the economics of the population.

What if, the 20% non African American's in the population, were also in the top quintile of the economic strata? Then, the non-African American's would have been most able to have the means and opportunity to evacuate.

When looking only to one measure, you can derive false assumptions.


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## Tgace (Sep 11, 2005)

If the city is 80% African American and only 20% are left, a significant amount of African Americans got out. The impression given out by some is that all the whites got out and all the blacks didnt.


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