# Is your FMA Blade-based, Stick-Based or...



## geezer (Jul 14, 2010)

Regardless of whether you call it Eskrima, Arnis, Kali, or just FMA, the art you study is probably either conceptually _blade-based_ or _stick based_. Moreover, it is likely either a _specialized_ art, focusing primarily on either blade or stick... or, on the other hand it, it may be a _generalized_ art, expanding from its conceptual basis to encompass blade, stick, empty hand... and anything else you can grab and use in a fight.

Which kind of art do you practice? And, if it is a "generalized" art, is an original basis in blade or stick reflected in your movements and "attitude" even when you are not holding blade or baston?


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## billc (Jul 14, 2010)

I am currently training in Dekiti Tirsia Sirada kali with John Bednarski at the Midway Kodenkan in Chicago.  DTS is a Blade based system that references stick work, but it is truly a blade art.


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## geezer (Jul 14, 2010)

billcihak said:


> I am currently training in Dekiti Tirsia Sirada kali with John Bednarski at the Midway Kodenkan in Chicago.  DTS is a Blade based system that references stick work, but it is truly a blade art.



Yes, but don't you guys apply that base to the way you use a stick and a lot of other stuff too? One of my teachers did a lot of Pekiti way back, and... well, even his stick hits are like cuts. He says it's the blade-base of the art coming through. Have you noticed that too?


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## Blindside (Jul 14, 2010)

Pekiti is most definately blade based.  Tuhon Gaje refers to it as "edged-impact" and there is a reason why "edge" is listed first.  Beyond the mechanics of swinging a stick or blade, I think the bigger differences show up in application of offense and defense.  

Pekiti is a long or short range system, middle/medio ground is where both people die due to lack of control over the opponents weapon or body and lack of space and time to avoid/defend the opponnet's attacks.  Middle might be acceptable in stick based system, but not given the assumption of the blade.  Also, when needing to get to short range, stick based systems tend to crash the middle, blade based tend to work the angles, in Pekiti terminology "quartering" or flanking the opponent.  Takedowns tend to drop the opponent on their face rather than their back, single or double leg takedowns are fine against a stick and fraggin suicidal when the blade assumption comes into play.  

Defensively you almost never see applications where Pekiti guys are grabbing the stick with the live/third/off hand, which is pretty common in stick based systems.  There are certainly applications for stalemate positions where someone is grabbing the end of your stick, and there are stick grappling applications when the stick is most definately a stick, but by and large, the assumption is of the blade.


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## James Kovacich (Jul 14, 2010)

Both, depending on which intructor I'm training with. The modified version which is blended with Hawaiian Kenpo is "stick and street" based and the traditional version is blade based. The modified version uses a single short stick with only 5 base strikes and a few blocks.

Two great instructors true to their hearts, I've got it good.


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## MJS (Jul 14, 2010)

geezer said:


> Regardless of whether you call it Eskrima, Arnis, Kali, or just FMA, the art you study is probably either conceptually _blade-based_ or _stick based_. Moreover, it is likely either a _specialized_ art, focusing primarily on either blade or stick... or, on the other hand it, it may be a _generalized_ art, expanding from its conceptual basis to encompass blade, stick, empty hand... and anything else you can grab and use in a fight.
> 
> Which kind of art do you practice? And, if it is a "generalized" art, is an original basis in blade or stick reflected in your movements and "attitude" even when you are not holding blade or baston?


 
I train Modern Arnis (Remy Presas).  I would say that its more stick oriented, followed by empty hand, then by knife.  Knife work is taught, but it seems to me that alot of the knife work that could be taught, isn't.  Obviously we do knife drills, stick/knife drills, but when it comes to offensive knife work, that seems to not be focused on, which is fine.

Now, one could say that the stick and knife drills are offensive, however, they're taught as drills, not as offensive knife work.  Then again, it doesnt take much thought for an advanced student, to look at the knife work, and figure things out for themselves.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 14, 2010)

Definitely what I do with IRT is blade based.  Personally I think it is easier to go from blade to a blunt weapon.  However, I think in the end almost anyone can differentiate between the two and make the adjustment.  So I do not see it as that big a deal!


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## billc (Jul 16, 2010)

Geezer,  when the instructor I am working with now strikes with the stick he keeps stick hits with the stick techniques and cutting motions when focusing on DTS kali.  He has a background in Kombatan as well as a familiarity with Balintawak and he definitely keeps the different striking skills seperated.  As far as Pekiti Tirsia is concerned, I did a bit of it with an instructor here in Chicago and I have to say that from the techniques that I saw, Pekiti, though it has cutting motions in its basic strikes, it is much more a stick art than Mr. Gaje's uncles art Dekiti Tirsia.  I am not an expert or really very good, but the I have noticed and learned differences in blade vs. stick arts.  In DTS, and blade based arts, they tend not to do rooftop blocks, waticks or wing blocks.  I have learned those in the stick based arts I have trained in but the blade based art like DTS does not really rely or train in them.  We learn them for familiarization, and when we work the Kombatan or Balintawak or Pekiti Tirsia drills, but blade responses do not really use them.  Remember, I am not the one to really talk to about that in great detail.  Talk to a DTS teacher for more info. on the differences from blade arts and stick influenced arts like PTK.  Thanks


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## Mananandata (Jul 16, 2010)

geezer said:


> Regardless of whether you call it Eskrima, Arnis, Kali, or just FMA, the art you study is probably either conceptually _blade-based_ or _stick based_. Moreover, it is likely either a _specialized_ art, focusing primarily on either blade or stick... or, on the other hand it, it may be a _generalized_ art, expanding from its conceptual basis to encompass blade, stick, empty hand... and anything else you can grab and use in a fight.
> 
> Which kind of art do you practice? And, if it is a "generalized" art, is an original basis in blade or stick reflected in your movements and "attitude" even when you are not holding blade or baston?


I practice escrima and that means one has to be able to defend with virtually anything. Fundamentally blade-based but the use of short stick, long stick, short staff and long staff in practice also give rise to important insights about the actual and potential usage of stick or impact weapons.
After some time, one will automatically know if someone is using a blade stroke or technique even if he's holding a stick or if someone is using stick methods though he's holding a sword.


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## geezer (Jul 16, 2010)

billcihak said:


> Geezer,  when the instructor I am working with now strikes with the stick he keeps stick hits with the stick techniques and cutting motions when focusing on DTS kali.  He has a background in Kombatan as well as a familiarity with Balintawak and he definitely keeps the different striking skills *separated*.



That's an interesting approach. In the first system I studied (Latosa PMAS), the tendency was exactly the opposite. At the basic level, they taught us to generalize and focus on the common principles that applied to stick, blade, and empty-handed work. The distinctions were dealt with later on.

The system I'm learning now (Torres DTE) is somewhat eclectic and non-traditional. The head guy and his senior students have all studied several systems before coming together, so different instructors each have a slightly different take on how to do things. But in a broad sense, it is distinctly more blade oriented than what I studied before. Like my previous system, there is also a tendency to generalize and look for common principles and concepts and then differentiate as experience is gained. The difference is that even though we begin mainly using sticks, blade awareness is taught from the outset.

Personally, I seem to do better in systems that _generalize_ and are concept-based over approaches that teach many _separate_ ways of doing things. I think it's a personal thing. Some people prefer to look at the whole forest, others focus on the leaves of the separate trees. Ultimately we want to reach a level where we can do _both_ and take it all in.

Now regarding the differences between Pekiti and Dekiti... I don't know squat, and I hate the nasty politics that sometimes come up. I believe my instructor trained back before Nene Tortal and Leo Gaje split. I know he's said positive things about the techniques of both. He also speaks very highly of Bill McGrath. All I know about it is what I see on Youtube! LOL


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 19, 2010)

I train Balintawak and Modern Arnis.

Balintawak was created by GM Bacon. He did Stick and Dagger first and the stick could be a blade. But when he started optimizing his techniques for stick dueling he also optimized for Stick and dropped the blade aspects.

Some of the families / branches of Balintawak have put it back in. I have no problem with that. I just state that those that put it back in say so, and explain why they did so. 


In Modern Arnis there are two 12 angles of attack. The first is with control which is for the stick. The second is with Follow through or Flow and this is the blade. 

From a high level the only changes are eye strikes are switched. But, if you notice the flow is belly strike and dragged as one would with a blade. It also has slight changes on the strikes, such as Control number one is a forehand to the temple, where the flow is to the collar bone area. 

I agree with MJS that the Blade offense is not concentrated upon, but it is there for the special strikes and in other areas of techniques as well. 

Obviously, each branch and person are going to concentrate on different things and or specialties.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 19, 2010)

Rich Parsons said:


> I train Balintawak and Modern Arnis.
> 
> Balintawak was created by GM Bacon. He did Stick and Dagger first and the stick could be a blade. But when he started optimizing his techniques for stick dueling he also optimized for Stick and dropped the blade aspects.
> 
> ...


 
*Absolutely Rich!*  And if I may just say that Rich is very, very well based in the blade (one of the better guys out there) and can differentiate between the two which leads me back to my point that really it is a pretty easy thing and not that big of a deal even if *some people* make it into one! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  if someone has a blade you just do not want to touch it if you can help it. :erg:  If they have a stick well you may be able too!  *Not that big of a deal!*


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