# Why do you require your Black Belts to teach?



## Tames D (Oct 16, 2009)

I'm always curious about this. And although I know the reasons for some who require their BB's to teach as a stipulation for their certificate, I always come back to the same question, and that is, WTF? And to take it a step further, some require their students to teach for free. Again, WTF?

Upon earning our high school diploma and our college degree, we're not required to teach. Those that become teachers, are usually studying for that profession. Why is Martial Arts different? 

Maybe I'm missing something. That's why I would like to throw the question out, and see what comes back. I'm hoping someone could give me a reason to change my opinion of this practice. 

This is not meant to offend anyone who doe's require their students to teach, but for me to have a better understanding.


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## Twin Fist (Oct 16, 2009)

yes, you are missing something. Generally, in the schools that require teaching, the Black doesnt just mean "such and such level of skill"


it means "can do and can TEACH the next guy to do it too"

knowledge that doesnt get passed on is wasted.

it COULD be said that the difference between a FIGHTER and a MARTIAL ARTIST is that the fighter can do, the martial artist can do AND teach someone else to do

plus there is the whole humility thing. 

thats where the teaching for free comes in.


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## Milt G. (Oct 17, 2009)

Tames D said:


> I'm always curious about this. And although I know the reasons for some who require their BB's to teach as a stipulation for their certificate, I always come back to the same question, and that is, WTF? And to take it a step further, some require their students to teach for free. Again, WTF?
> 
> Upon earning our high school diploma and our college degree, we're not required to teach. Those that become teachers, are usually studying for that profession. Why is Martial Arts different?
> 
> ...


 
Hello,

Why do I require my black belts to teach???
Simple...

It is required because when you teach, your level of understanding becomes deeper.  You become a better student AND practitioner when you teach.  Especially when you teach regularly.

To be a good teacher, you have to be a good student.  To be a good student you have to become a good teacher.  A Zen thing, I think?

Thank you,
Milt G.


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## Tames D (Oct 17, 2009)

I'm curious as to why these principles don't apply in other aspects of life? Or do they?

Should I be working in my profession without pay to show I have humility. Should the college student be teaching classes at the University to have a deeper understanding? Again, just trying to understand 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.


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## Big Don (Oct 17, 2009)

Tames D said:


> I'm curious as to why these principles don't apply in other aspects of life? Or do they?
> .


Poverty isn't a virtue.
If you can't teach someone every aspect of your job, you don't know it well enough.


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## Tames D (Oct 17, 2009)

Big Don said:


> Poverty isn't a virtue.
> If you can't teach someone every aspect of your job, you don't know it well enough.


 
I do know every aspect of my job. And I could pass along that information. But why should I be *expected* to teach someone in order to keep my job. Isn't excellent job performance enough?


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## Big Don (Oct 17, 2009)

Tames D said:


> I do know every aspect of my job. And I could pass along that information. But why should I be *expected* to teach someone in order to keep my job. Isn't excellent job performance enough?


No, it is not.


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## K-man (Oct 17, 2009)

Milt G. said:


> Hello,
> 
> Why do I require my black belts to teach???
> Simple...
> ...


It wasn't until I started teaching that I had to acquire a deeper knowledge. Therefore I think it is very important to get that teaching experience.   However, in a commercial operation I believe BBs teaching should be compensated for their time whether by cash, fee relief or free attendance at seminars.  Anybody making money for someone else should be rewarded.   :asian:


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## ACJ (Oct 17, 2009)

In quite a few systems and clubs, you are qualified by becoming a certain rank to be able to teach. So like getting qualification as a primary school teacher or whatever, you need to do some placements. Getting experience in teaching. Generally student teachers are not paid. In fact they are still paying for their tuition in becoming a teacher. Why should martial arts be any different?

Well for a couple of reasons, firstly people who are aiming to get teaching qualifications, WANT to teach, whereas people aiming for a rank in a martial art aren't necessarily looking to teach. Additionally not all people looking to grade are suited to teaching.

So I admit it is not perfect, but I hope you can see the necessity of needing it as a requirement to grade, because you are effectively making them qualified to teach. As well it is a strong training tool for the teacher to learn more in depth into their art.


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## Allen a.k.a. Destroyer (Oct 17, 2009)

Milt G. said:


> Hello,
> 
> Why do I require my black belts to teach???
> Simple...
> ...


 
Yes. You hit the nail on the head.

Allow me to try and explain further...

Teaching something forces you to break it down and build it up all over again. Like tearing down a car engine and rebuilding it. You learn EVERY single aspect of that engine as you go. Or... you don't... and someone else has to come and put your car back together for you.  :lol: 

As your blackbelts teach they themselves *are also learning. *It may not seem like it, but nor does it seem like there's any improvement during 10,000 round kicks when you're still in the two to three hundred range of that practice. (figuratively... over time I mean. Don't start any kids on ten thousand kick drills, please... lol)

I believe a certain Mr. Lee put it thusly:
"Before I studied the art, a punch to me was just like a punch, a kick just like a kick. After I learned the art, a punch was no longer a punch, a kick no longer a kick. Now that I've *understood* the art, a punch is just like a punch, a kick just like a kick..." 

The *understanding* comes from teaching. Granted some people are naturally better teachers than others... I also agree that an instructor's black belts should be allowed (and more than just able) to teach class now and then. I'm one of them. My master encouraged me to teach from nearly the beginning. I was always helping lower belts learn their forms, work on their basics, and especially weapons. It definitely reinforced my technique. Now that I've got a bb, I'm teaching his class fairly often. I wouldn't be doing it so often if I didn't get some kind of perk though, lol. 

Teaching for free with no tuition relief or seminar relief??? I would probably find another school if that's an option... lol. 
Freely give and freely receive, right? At least that _should_ be the rule.

Getting a blackbelt in something is just scratching the surface. It means one has a good understanding of the *basics*. (and should be able to kick much ### beyond a shadow of a doubt =) Being able to teach is VERY important.

I hope you get the gist of what I was trying to say. If not, I hope someone else can word it better.


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## stickarts (Oct 17, 2009)

I don't require my black belts to teach, however, students are required to spend some time teaching to reach black belt level for the reasons listed in the previous posts. By Black Belt level our students enjoy it so much they want to teach. I don't need to push them to do it.


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## Sukerkin (Oct 17, 2009)

I have ever maintained, as has been pointed out by several posters above, that I never learned so much about my art until I started to teach and pass on what I knew to my fellows.

My sensei didnt require it of me, it was just a role that developed as I went.  Discussing what we were doing in class and helping others refine their technique and understanding was natural to me - I know that we shouldn't assume but I would have thought that this was the same for everybody?

Of course, stepping out to the front of the class actually 'taking' or 'leading' it is a bit of a bigger step but again it helped me develop.


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## xJOHNx (Oct 17, 2009)

Martial arts are not a job. Sure you can have a succesfull dojo and ask for fee's. But as far as I'm concerned martial arts shouldn't be about the money.

If I could teach, I don't think I would even expect money for it. As long as the rent for the dojo is paid. Fine.


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## Tames D (Oct 17, 2009)

K-man said:


> It wasn't until I started teaching that I had to acquire a deeper knowledge. Therefore I think it is very important to get that teaching experience.:asian:


 
I understand this. I've been doing this MA stuff for over 30 years and I totally "get" the value of teaching. That's not my issue. I've had great benefits from it. What I don't "get" is the mandatory requirement in some schools to teach as a condition to train at the facility. And to teach for free? Helluva benefit for the school owner 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. 

If you have a gifted student, and he is not interested in teachng, would you throw him to the curb for that reason? I wouldn't, and never have.


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## still learning (Oct 17, 2009)

Hello,  Learning the Martial art way?  ....one can learn as a student...and one also learn as a Teacher!    (Yin/Yang)

Each School will have there own requirements...some will give there Black belts a lower payment rate for teaching, others pay outright a fee and some expect you to do it free..

For many of us... a chance to learn from Teaching and a chance to give back...and share our knowledge to the students and hope one day they will achieve the same acomplishments...!

If one feel uncomfortable for teaching?  ....best to talk to your Teacher?

 Teaching can be very "rewarding to the heart".....and the returns from teaching can be double in rewards to gaining a better understanding of the martial arts..

Aloha,    ....10 dollars please  .....just kidding!


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## jks9199 (Oct 17, 2009)

Tames D said:


> I'm always curious about this. And although I know the reasons for some who require their BB's to teach as a stipulation for their certificate, I always come back to the same question, and that is, WTF? And to take it a step further, some require their students to teach for free. Again, WTF?
> 
> Upon earning our high school diploma and our college degree, we're not required to teach. Those that become teachers, are usually studying for that profession. Why is Martial Arts different?
> 
> ...


In our system, every black belt should be able to teach -- but that doesn't mean every black belt SHOULD teach.  Some simply lack the talent or interest to teach.  Others have addressed the reasons why teaching -- even if it's limited to helping out another student occasionally.

As to requiring students to teach...  Unfortunately, in some of the commercial schools it's really a scam to provide more classes without actually having to hire more staff or to give the owner a break.  In all honesty -- it's probably illegal if you really look at the labor laws.


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## Milt G. (Oct 17, 2009)

Tames D said:


> I do know every aspect of my job. And I could pass along that information. But why should I be *expected* to teach someone in order to keep my job. Isn't excellent job performance enough?


 
Hello,

I think that you would become better at your job, over time, if you "taught" it regularly.  The ability to teach enhances the ability to do and to learn.

Would you lose your job if you refused to teach?  Perhaps.  Depends on the job, and the expectations of your "employer".

Thank you,
Milt G.


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## Milt G. (Oct 17, 2009)

K-man said:


> It wasn't until I started teaching that I had to acquire a deeper knowledge. Therefore I think it is very important to get that teaching experience. However, in a commercial operation I believe BBs teaching should be compensated for their time whether by cash, fee relief or free attendance at seminars. Anybody making money for someone else should be rewarded. :asian:


 
Hello,

I fully agree.  I allow those actively teaching free tuition.  For black belts I will, usually, waive the monthly fees if they teach a minimum of one class weekly.  Of course, some wish to teach more then that.  If it is possible, it will usually be allowed.  As the chief instructor of a school, I feel that you should not allow a large majority of the teaching to be done by others.  You should continue to be VERY involved in all aspects of teaching to enhance your own learning and understanding. 

I have found that the more *one of teaching rank* teaches, the better they become at the art and discipline.  I emphasize "of teaching rank", because I believe that only those at a certain level should be teaching.  I do not think a beginning student will benefit much, if any, from teaching others.  I think all has to be kept in perspective.

Good point, thanks!
Milt G.


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## suicide (Oct 17, 2009)

something about teaching makes you better is what ive noticed in my own personal exp. :yoda:


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## shihansmurf (Oct 17, 2009)

Tames D said:


> I understand this. I've been doing this MA stuff for over 30 years and I totally "get" the value of teaching. That's not my issue. I've had great benefits from it. What I don't "get" is the mandatory requirement in some schools to teach as a condition to train at the facility. And to teach for free? Helluva benefit for the school owner
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Bingo! 

Great way to get an employee that you don't have to pay. More to the point, I'm really impressed with the places that can convince the student to keep paying to come to classes and teach as a part of the deal. They are paying for the honor of being exploited. Its a good scam and speaks volumes about the character of any teacher that engages in such behavior.

While we're on the subject. What makes a black belt holder automatically qualified to teach? Have they gone through classes on teaching methodology, exercise theory, or do they have professional teaching certification from the state that their school is in?  Hell, do they have any actual training in how to actually instruct? Not just "Sensei does it this way", but actual training in teaching methodology? 

I grow more and more amazed every day at all of the things that small strip of fabric is supposed to represent.
Mark


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## Tames D (Oct 17, 2009)

suicide said:


> something about teaching makes you better is what ive noticed in my own personal exp. :yoda:


 
I don't think anyone will dispute this. I know I won't. But that is not what this thread is about,or suppose to be about. 

Why do some school owners, instructors, Masters etc, demand that their students "teach or don't bother coming to class"?


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## Tames D (Oct 17, 2009)

shihansmurf said:


> Bingo!
> 
> Great way to get an employee that you don't have to pay. More to the point, I'm really impressed with the places that can convince the student to keep paying to come to classes and teach as a part of the deal. They are paying for the honor of being exploited. Its a good scam and speaks volumes about the character of any teacher that engages in such behavior.
> 
> ...


 

Thank you. I think we're on the same page
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.


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## Tames D (Oct 17, 2009)

Milt G. said:


> Hello,
> 
> Why do I require my black belts to teach???
> Simple...
> ...


 
Would you allow an excellent student, with a great attitude, to continue training under you if he wasn't interested in teaching?


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## Sukerkin (Oct 17, 2009)

A thing to bear in mind is that, sadly, most schools I have heard of in America are run as businesses and that means that some of the points made about 'free labour' have merit.

I am fortunate in that my school is not run that way.  The fees are laughably tiny and are only as high as they are because of the cost of the hall we hire.  Before we had to shift location I paid £1 a week ... now I pay £4.

To my mind that is how MA schools should be - it is the passing on of an art to the next generation with no other motive than a commitment that this stuff is worth preserving.


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## Milt G. (Oct 17, 2009)

Tames D said:


> Would you allow an excellent student, with a great attitude, to continue training under you if he wasn't interested in teaching?


 
Hello,

Yes, but they would never reach their potential in the art.  
Althought they would, probably, not advance much higher then Shodan.  Not bad, as that is most students "goal", anyway.

That because they would not be able to reach their real potential as a practitioner.  Teaching helps allow that.  Of course, rank is fairly meaningless unless you choose to be a teacher.  It is fairly meaningless even it you don't, oddly, in the big picture. 

I have noticed it is more "uncomfortable" for one to make mistakes if one has many "stripes" on their belt.  This is counter productive to learning, as learning requires making some mistakes.  Teaching helps put that into perspective, as the teacher learns that mistakes are fully necessary for learning.  Both their mistakes, and the students mistakes.   In the end we are all just human and are bound by the pluses AND minuses of that condition.

A student of teaching level does not HAVE to teach, but I will encourage it wholeheartedly.  Especially if they wish to continue to advance.  In knowledge, and in rank.  Hope this helps...

Thank you,
Milt G.


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## Twin Fist (Oct 17, 2009)

there are some people that have NO BUSINESS teaching.

call it personality quirks, whatever

they can still be great students, but never great teachers.

I would keep them on as students, but they would never get past 1st Dan.


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## Big Don (Oct 17, 2009)

The single hardest class I've had was when my Sifu had me teach one of the Yellow Belts his first Orange Belt technique.
He was on the mat, I had my nose against the wall behind him, I wasn't allowed to move just to talk him through it.


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## Carol (Oct 17, 2009)

This is an area where students are often exploited by their instructors, IMO.

Requiring someone to work for free (in the US) is against the law.  See 29CFR8, which is the Fair Labor Standards act of 1938. These laws are enforced at the federal and state level. Humility, tradition, "that's how I learned" or "everyone else does it" does not preclude one from the law.

I'm not an attorney but I suspect requiring that a student work as a teacher may be permissible if the organization is not a business...such as a group that meets in the park, or a teacher that holds class at rhe Y.  But for a storefront school, requiring a student to work without clearing that they are legally able to work in the US, taking them on as an employee, and compensating them for their time is something that can cause a teacher to run afoul of federal and state law.


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## MJS (Oct 17, 2009)

Tames D said:


> I'm always curious about this. And although I know the reasons for some who require their BB's to teach as a stipulation for their certificate, I always come back to the same question, and that is, WTF? And to take it a step further, some require their students to teach for free. Again, WTF?
> 
> Upon earning our high school diploma and our college degree, we're not required to teach. Those that become teachers, are usually studying for that profession. Why is Martial Arts different?
> 
> ...


 
The BBs are usually looked up to at the school by the lower ranks.  They're often used to assist with classes or to take over a class if the regular inst. isn't available to teach.  Teaching also makes the BB have to really think about what it is that they're teaching, which in turn, gives them a new understanding of the tech, kata, kick, etc.  

As for the free part...well, the schools that I've been at, do not charge the BBs for any lessons, with the stipulation that you give something back, which is teaching at least a class.  Once I reached BB level, I no longer paid for any classes, other than a private lesson, and I had full access to the school any time I wanted it.


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## tshadowchaser (Oct 18, 2009)

I require ALL students to teach. They start at white belt level and continue as long as they are with me.
After i know a student is capible of preforming a technique , form, whatevre, I have them start showing it to newer students. I watch, correct, or give hints as how to instruct better. 
If they are unable to pass on their knowledge then I am not sure they really have that knowledge


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## shihansmurf (Oct 18, 2009)

Sukerkin said:


> A thing to bear in mind is that, sadly, most schools I have heard of in America are run as businesses and that means that some of the points made about 'free labour' have merit.
> 
> I am fortunate in that my school is not run that way.  The fees are laughably tiny and are only as high as they are because of the cost of the hall we hire.  Before we had to shift location I paid £1 a week ... now I pay £4.
> 
> To my mind that is how MA schools should be - it is the passing on of an art to the next generation with no other motive than a commitment that this stuff is worth preserving.



I like this. This is how I run my class at the moment. We meet in my backyard most of the time, one of the student's backyard other times, and we rent a room one day a week at a local recreation center(they have mats that a Danzan Ryu class uses). Everyone pitches in for the room rent, including me, and the class is as close to a not-for-profit venture as one can get. I much prefer things this way as I don't have to worry about compromising my teaching style or lowering my expectations in order to keep students and the accompanying revenue stream.

All that being said, I have no problem with the idea of a commercial school. There is nothing wrong with making a living, even a good one, from teaching the martial arts. Where I see an issue is when an instructor uses a student as a labor source without compensating them. I also don't think that equating any rank with either teaching ability or responsibility is a good idea, in and of itself.   Being good at martial arts is one skill set and teaching is another. Qualifications in one should not be dependent upon the other.

Mark


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## Haze (Oct 18, 2009)

I was involved in a program at the YMCA. The head instructor was compensated by the Y (part time staff ) but none of the other BB's that taught got anything.

Another school I was at, we could  teach several hours per week and we payed no fees if we did this. Free tuition


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## Allen a.k.a. Destroyer (Oct 18, 2009)

Carol Kaur said:


> Requiring someone to work for free (in the US) is against the law. See 29CFR8, which is the Fair Labor Standards act of 1938. These laws are enforced at the federal and state level. Humility, tradition, "that's how I learned" or "everyone else does it" does not preclude one from the law.


 
I think I need to hit up my instructor for some back wages now... lol nah. I might pressure him for a rate at 2nd degree here pretty soon lol. But even then, I'd only ask minimum wage (or a tank of gas if it gets much higher again lol).



Milt G. said:


> Yes, but they would never reach their potential in the art.
> Although they would, probably, not advance much higher then Shodan. Not bad, as that is most students "goal", anyway.


 
Some sad stats I recently heard from Grandmaster Pellegrini in a seminar: 5% of the US population get into martial arts, OF that 5%, only 2% of all THEM are still training (very few indeed). Only some of those people get their little 1st degree and just quit... thinking it's the end of the road... but we know it's not.

Imho, you're not a blackbelt if you get that 1st and quit. If you give it a try and stop at a color belt, you may wanna try a different style or instructor. If you come back from a break with a vengeance and get your ranks, *much respect*... but just stone cold quit... 
*shakes head in dissappointment*



Tames D said:


> If you have a gifted student, and he is not interested in teachng, would you throw him to the curb for that reason? I wouldn't, and never have.


Guess I misunderstood the first few posts... My answer: No, as long as they trained earnestly and stayed out of trouble to the extent possible. But... Why the heck don't they want to teach!? Teenager? Child black belt? Irritable old fogey? What..?


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## Bruno@MT (Oct 19, 2009)

I think it is important for the art itself, in order to survive.
To put this in Japanese context: some lineages are extremely fragile, and have only 1 menkyo kaiden holder left. If he dies before he has had the chance to pass on the line, the entire lineage is dead. For this reason I think it is important to teach if you reach that level. I think this is also why Tanemura sensei requires students to earn a number of menkyo and menkyo kaiden in order to progress beyond 6th dan. This way, the old systems have a much higher chance of survival.

Whether this should be free or not is a secondary discussion, and depends on the context imo. Over here, dojo are usually organized as non-profit orgs for administrative reasons (insurance, bookkeeping, etc) and teaching is done with only expenses paid (gas etc) or a small compensation. Definitely not much. I am not counting private tuition of course.

Now, in such a system, I think it is normal that if you start out teaching, you do it for free or only expenses, since you are still 'learning to teach'. Even after that, noone is making much money out of it.
If, otoh, someone is running a dojo as a for-profit organization and gets a good paycheck out of it, then it would be in bad taste imo to treat your blackbelts as unpaid employees.


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## TigerLove (Oct 19, 2009)

Here is a standing from green belt!! Every month, each of us leads the 3 trainings, takes the role of master. Completely, from warming up, strecthing, fitness, and martial arts tehnique. We say what others do, and first show how, and explain why. Since we do that (and that's just 3 time a month!!) i learned so much ang get so better, that it's almost weird - because we "lead" the training, and that's good way for master to see exact our level of skill and where are we doing wrong, and according to that, he can react proper. Well, i am green belt, but i can say i started learned much more since i am "teaching". 

I think it's a litlle bit different from case when some black belt real learns somebody, from this case where we leads the training to discover our mistakes.

But, maybe interresting to someone, so i exposed it. 

:burp:


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 19, 2009)

MJS said:


> The BBs are usually looked up to at the school by the lower ranks. They're often used to assist with classes or to take over a class if the regular inst. isn't available to teach. Teaching also makes the BB have to really think about what it is that they're teaching, which in turn, gives them a new understanding of the tech, kata, kick, etc.
> 
> As for the free part...well, the schools that I've been at, do not charge the BBs for any lessons, with the stipulation that you give something back, which is teaching at least a class. Once I reached BB level, I no longer paid for any classes, other than a private lesson, and I had full access to the school any time I wanted it.


I was going to type out an answer, but MJS sums up my own thougts quite well.

Daniel


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## MJS (Oct 19, 2009)

Sukerkin said:


> A thing to bear in mind is that, sadly, most schools I have heard of in America are run as businesses and that means that some of the points made about 'free labour' have merit.
> 
> I am fortunate in that my school is not run that way. The fees are laughably tiny and are only as high as they are because of the cost of the hall we hire. Before we had to shift location I paid £1 a week ... now I pay £4.
> 
> To my mind that is how MA schools should be - it is the passing on of an art to the next generation with no other motive than a commitment that this stuff is worth preserving.


 


shihansmurf said:


> I like this. This is how I run my class at the moment. We meet in my backyard most of the time, one of the student's backyard other times, and we rent a room one day a week at a local recreation center(they have mats that a Danzan Ryu class uses). Everyone pitches in for the room rent, including me, and the class is as close to a not-for-profit venture as one can get. I much prefer things this way as I don't have to worry about compromising my teaching style or lowering my expectations in order to keep students and the accompanying revenue stream.
> 
> All that being said, I have no problem with the idea of a commercial school. There is nothing wrong with making a living, even a good one, from teaching the martial arts. Where I see an issue is when an instructor uses a student as a labor source without compensating them. I also don't think that equating any rank with either teaching ability or responsibility is a good idea, in and of itself. Being good at martial arts is one skill set and teaching is another. Qualifications in one should not be dependent upon the other.
> 
> Mark


 
IMO, I think alot of times, when people hear the word 'commercial' that alone, paints a bad picture in their mind, and in some cases, rightfully so.  I suppose we can look at it a few different ways:

1) A school in which that is the bread and butter for the owner.  Meaning that school *is* his only business.  If he makes no $, he doesn't eat.

2) School that is run part time.  The inst. has a full time "day job" with the school being run during the evening hours.

Is one better than the other?  I guess it depends.  I've heard some people on this forum say that the commercial schools water down the art.  IMO, the people who say that, lump all commercial schools into the same group.  Is it not possible to have a commercial school, but you're still teaching quality material?  I would say it is, as I know a few that fall into that group.  Of course, I've also seen the PT schools fail as well.  

Personally, I enjoy the smaller, informal, backyard type groups.  Sure, at times, money is paid for the lessons, and other times its a group of people just getting together to train.  No ego, no belts, no fancy stuff, just some hard work.


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## Stac3y (Oct 20, 2009)

Our school provides a living for our head instructor. Brown belts are required to be assistant instructors in order to make it to black belt, but are given free tuition. Black belts don't pay for training in any circumstances, but, as a courtesy, assist in any class they attend if needed. Black belts who have their own classes are paid for teaching them, though they don't make much.


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## tonbo (Oct 21, 2009)

Here's my 2 cents' worth:

I've never been *required* to teach, so I can't speak to that.  I would say that is kind of a sketchy practice at best, but hey....different people have different methods.

All of the Black Belts that I have known as teachers *wanted* to be a teacher.  My former head instructor/school owner worked out deals with everyone who was a teacher:  as teachers, we got our tuition free, as well as got paid by the hour (not a whole LOT, but hey, classes were free!).  I think that work ought to be compensated, definitely -- I think anything else is a little shy of legal, but that may just be me...

We had a "student teacher" program, more or less, where students who were high enough level (brown and up) could train to be teachers by being assistant teachers: helping lower belts one on one, holding bags, etc.  while observing/shadowing the teachers.  That way, they got training on how to not only do the techniques better, but how to teach them better.

As for the reasoning behind why one would want to teach, aside from helping to make the art really *live* for students, it also helps the teacher deepen their own knowledge of the art (at least, if they are paying attention).  That's another one of those zen things -- "A good teacher can learn from his own teaching".  I have had many "AHA!" moments when teaching....where a move/technique I've been doing forever suddenly takes on a whole new light....

Basically, I don't think it's right to make teaching a *requirement*.  In some cases, that may do more harm than good....just because someone is good at something doesn't necessarily mean that they are qualified to teach it right.

Your mileage may vary.

Peace--

--Tonbo


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## celtic_crippler (Oct 21, 2009)

"Knowledge is not enough, one must apply." -Bruce Lee

A "black belt" proves their understanding by being able to relay what they've (hopefully) learned and pass it on to another. Consider it a long-running test of sorts... or perhaps an internship, like many must serve before recieving a degree.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 21, 2009)

I think that there are some real problems if the school is a for-profit endeavor, and students are required to teach for free.  But I think a lot of it depends.

People have cited over and over the benefit in your own learning, thru teaching.  Agreed.  And it could be viewed as part of the apprenticeship is learning to teach, and in doing so you need to practice teaching.

I think there is a right way and a wrong way to go about it.  In one of the schools where I train, this is how it works.  The head teacher is always present, and is in charge of class. We usually have a group training session, and later break off by level.  Often, he will assign a higher belt to teach something to a lower belt, but he is always there overseeing the process.  These teaching sessions might last for half an hour or so, he doesn't just turn the class over to the student and then head out to the bar or something.

Likewise, if he needs to be absent from class, he will ask one of the senior students to take control of the class and give a good session.  This doesn't happen often.

In this way, the students are getting the experience from teaching, but it's not a burdensome responsibility.  In addition, the tuition we pay is very very low compared to most schools in our area.

On the other end of the extreme would be if the head teacher assigned certain classes to the senior students, and told him, "you are now responsible for wednesday and friday night classes, you need to be there and teach every wednesday and friday night.  Don't miss it".  And then he continues to charge tuition to the senior student as well, while collecting the profit from the school and not bothering to even show up on wednesday and friday nights himself.  I think this is a problem.  It's even worse if the head teacher also begins to neglect the training of the senior students who are doing much of the teaching.  There is a difference between teaching someone how to teach, and treating someone like an employee but without pay.


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## Tames D (Oct 21, 2009)

tshadowchaser said:


> I require ALL students to teach. They start at white belt level and continue as long as they are with me.
> After i know a student is capible of preforming a technique , form, whatevre, I have them start showing it to newer students. I watch, correct, or give hints as how to instruct better.
> If they are unable to pass on their knowledge then I am not sure they really have that knowledge


 
How much is their salary, if I may ask?


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## Tames D (Oct 21, 2009)

MJS said:


> The BBs are usually looked up to at the school by the lower ranks. They're often used to assist with classes or to take over a class if the regular inst. isn't available to teach. Teaching also makes the BB have to really think about what it is that they're teaching, which in turn, gives them a new understanding of the tech, kata, kick, etc.


 
There is no question about this. It's been done this way for as long as I can remember. But how do we justify it? How do we justify forcing our students to teach, when they have no interest. What if they just want to train?


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## jks9199 (Oct 21, 2009)

Flying Crane said:


> I  The head teacher is always present, and is in charge of class. We usually have a group training session, and later break off by level.  Often, he will assign a higher belt to teach something to a lower belt, but he is always there overseeing the process.  These teaching sessions might last for half an hour or so, he doesn't just turn the class over to the student and then head out to the bar or something.
> 
> Likewise, if he needs to be absent from class, he will ask one of the senior students to take control of the class and give a good session.  This doesn't happen often.



Excellent point.  The head instructor (or a qualified instructor) should always be present and is always responsible for the activities of the class.  You can delegate tasks and authority -- but not responsibility.


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## Grenadier (Oct 21, 2009)

A yudansha will end up teaching others in some way, shape or form, regardless of whether or not he directly instructs a class.  

I've seen many yudansha who never taught a single class, yet their technique was so good, that the other students couldn't help but learn from their excellence.  Thus, they are still teaching others in ways that are not quite as direct.


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## ACJ (Oct 22, 2009)

Tames D said:


> There is no question about this. It's been done this way for as long as I can remember. But how do we justify it? How do we justify forcing our students to teach, when they have no interest. What if they just want to train?



How do you justify everyone doing a certain drill that is quite core in your art if some people don't have any interest in that drill, if they don't want to do that drill? Think of instructing as another drill, one that may or may not be crucial to your art.

It's not perfect, but it's a new way of thinking about it. I agree, we don't force black belts to teach or kick out those that don't, but we do ask them to teach and they usually do, that is teaching in the sense they work with a group of students for one segment of the class.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 22, 2009)

Tames D said:


> There is no question about this. It's been done this way for as long as I can remember. But how do we justify it? How do we justify forcing our students to teach, when they have no interest. What if they just want to train?


This question has been adequately answered multiple times.  Yudansha who teach are generally not being charged to show up to train.  

And I would not consider it forcing.  It is openly known that yudansha are expected to take on some level of teaching, be it simply helping out or actually teaching the occasional class.  If you do not want to teach on any level whatsoever, then simply do not test for first dan and be done with it, or find a place that does not require yudansha to teach.  They do exist.

Honestly, if all that one wants to do is train, then they really do not need a black belt.  Part of being a black belt is learning to do things other than just to train. 

People who want to be doctors, broadcasters, and researchers will go to school and also work as an intern for no money because it is part of the learning process.  

But if all you want to do is to know how to do first aid really well, play around with a home made radio rig, or just like science class, then you do not need to really go any further.  

There is a point where if you wish to go further with the system, teaching is considered an integral part of that advancement.  

If all a student wants to do is fight (and there is nothing wrong with that), stop at first kyu and just compete.  If they want to compete without concern of belt ranking holding them back in competition bracketing, MMA is ready and waiting to receive good fighters.

If you have a teacher who offers material past first dan (more than just more forms), then simply accept that your teacher includes teaching as part of the learning process.

As I said, if it is really that big a deal, then simply find a school that offers what you want and tell the instructor that you do not wish to teach, just to train past black belt level.  There certainly are such schools.  

Daniel


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## bluekey88 (Oct 22, 2009)

Let me say something else (and if it's been said before, my apologies)...I didn't get good...really good, until I started teaching.  

Now, if a BB just doesn't want to teach, that's fine....but I can almost gaurantee that any BB that does teach will benefit from improved skills and understanding of the art.  

Peace,
Erik


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## dancingalone (Oct 22, 2009)

I don't require my dan students to teach.  Why not?  Well, frankly there's an art and science to teaching too, and I don't pretend to be able to pass it along to my students.  

I also don't believe in short-changing my other students by asking them to be patient with an apprentice teacher.  They come to my dojo to train with me.  And they do.  When I am no longer able to teach, I will close my school.


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## celtic_crippler (Oct 22, 2009)

IMHO...if one can not adequately demonstrate and communicate an understanding of the material; concepts, principles, applications, etc then they have no business strapping on a black belt. 

Requiring "black belts to teach" is the simplest way of gauging this for an instructor. 

If one only wants to mimic motion without understanding, to "bang" when given the opportunity...then they can remain a brown belt... No shame in that. However, if they desire the coveted black belt they need to demonstrate a greater understanding....IMHO. 

That's why... If you do not agree then so be it... I have no control or influence over you, your organization, or system. Do what you like, but I and others have higher standards and expectations of our students and that is evidenced in our requirment that black belts teach.

...not to mention that it's only polite to show gratitude by giving back to something that's given one so much.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 22, 2009)

Tames

I think part of the problem you are having is that you are approaching this from a different cultural perspective than those that require their Black Belts to teach. San Soo has its roots in CMA and TCMA has no belts and TCMA Sifus have their favorites (no different than any other style form any other culture) However not all students of a CMA Sifu are required to teach, actually none of them are. However there are those that the Sifu wants to teach and if they do they tend to be inside students that get more training because they are teaching and they are teaching because, as it is with most good TCMA sifus, the Sifu knows they are ready to teach because they have watched them over the years. 

However if they do not or do not want to they will not be thrown out or no longer taught. A senior student is a senior student. My Sanda Sifu and I had an agreement actually, he taught me and I taught no one that I did not know rather well or trust, just like he did. But I taught no one until he said I could and at that point he would be done teaching me so if I were to teach it was for me not for him. My taiji Sifu I do teach for, but it is generally push hands, not forms so much these days and he is always there teaching and watching me teach and I do get corrected from time to time.

However not all CMA sifus are the same and some do take advantage of their students from time to time. But that would mean I would be typing more about my first Sifu and that is another story

But more to the topic, IMO, there are a lot of (not all) MA schools out there that are questionable and basically give away belts for a price I do not feel requiring someone to teach to get a black belt is showing anything other than their ability to write out checks to pay for the privilege of training others so the person in charge can get a paid night off. 

There are those that are following tradition or to actually gauge a students ability and I have nothing against that but Im sorry not all are doing this and same are simply taking advantage of their students. IMO, It is kind of hard to gauge how well someone understands the material if the person that is going to judge it is not even there


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## Carol (Oct 22, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> People who want to be doctors, broadcasters, and researchers will go to school and also work as an intern for no money because it is part of the learning process.



This is another area where students are commonly exploited, and not just in martial arts.  

There is no FLSA  definition of "student intern".  The FLSA does allow for a person to work as a "trainee" and not be subject to the law regarding payment of wages and overtime.  However, the FLSA also mandates that six conditions are always met, at all times that the trainee is not working as a paid employee.


http://www.twc.state.tx.us/news/efte/advanced_flsa_issues.html#interns_trainees


The bullet points are from the 1974 FLSA opinion letter, the italics are commentary from the Texas Workforce Commission (Texas follows federal law regarding payment of wages).  Conditions 3 and 4 are the most difficult stipulations to meet.  Also note that this only gives the employer a repreve from wage and hour laws, this does NOT preclude the employer from ensuring their trainees are legal to work in the US, or meeting other appropriate labor laws such as age restrictions.  

How many martial arts instructors are in absolute compliance with federal and local child labor laws?  How many have I-9s properly completed and filed for all their black belts "trainees" that they expect to teach without compensation?  

Hmmm...is that crickets I hear?


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## ATC (Oct 22, 2009)

Carol Kaur said:


> This is another area where students are commonly exploited, and not just in martial arts.
> 
> There is no FLSA definition of "student intern". The FLSA does allow for a person to work as a "trainee" and not be subject to the law regarding payment of wages and overtime. However, the FLSA also mandates that six conditions are always met, at all times that the trainee is not working as a paid employee.
> 
> ...


You sound like my HR lady friend. Josie is that you?


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## celtic_crippler (Oct 22, 2009)

Carol Kaur said:


> How many martial arts instructors are in *absolute compliance with federal and local child labor laws*? How many have I-9s properly completed and filed for all their black belts "trainees" that they expect to teach without compensation?


 
We don't have child black-belts so it's not a problem. LOL


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 22, 2009)

ATC said:


> You sound like my HR lady friend. Josie is that you?


 
Does Josie "KILL" Maglites on a regular basis


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## James Kovacich (Oct 22, 2009)

Carol Kaur said:


> This is another area where students are commonly exploited, and not just in martial arts.
> 
> There is no FLSA definition of "student intern". The FLSA does allow for a person to work as a "trainee" and not be subject to the law regarding payment of wages and overtime. However, the FLSA also mandates that six conditions are always met, at all times that the trainee is not working as a paid employee.
> 
> ...


 That would depend on if it is "instructor training" or not. I can see how some schools could misuse this type of training. But the bottom line is it is still training and as long as they are students in training (which they pay for) and not employees of the school. They are there for their education.

When I was a lower level apprentice instructor and the other instructors could not make it in, my brother-in-law (who was my instructor at that time)  put me in front to teach his class and I made a lot of mistakes. Thats how we learn what it takes to teach.

But you wer probably referring to the mis-uses.


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## ATC (Oct 22, 2009)

Xue Sheng said:


> Does Josie "KILL" Maglites on a regular basis


She's HR, she kills everything!:rofl:


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## Stac3y (Oct 22, 2009)

ATC said:


> She's HR, she kills everything!:rofl:


 
Yeah, but she always does it in compliance with local, state, and federal regulations.


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## Carol (Oct 22, 2009)

Flashlights fear me.  :lol2:

I'm in engineering, not HR...employment law is basically a hobby of mine.  Hey, some people collect string.


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## Tez3 (Oct 22, 2009)

We only have two blackbelts, me and the chief instructor so I don't have a lot of choice lol!
We have other instructors for MMA but they aren't graded, they fight.


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## kingkong89 (Oct 22, 2009)

When one becomes a bb they teach because that is thier way of learning.they learn by teaching others,they learn how to teach the other students so in a way they are still a student of sorts


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## jks9199 (Oct 22, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> I don't require my dan students to teach.  Why not?  Well, frankly there's an art and science to teaching too, and I don't pretend to be able to pass it along to my students.
> 
> I also don't believe in short-changing my other students by asking them to be patient with an apprentice teacher.  They come to my dojo to train with me.  And they do.  When I am no longer able to teach, I will close my school.


This is a very valid point that I tried to allude to earlier.

To me, every black belt should be CAPABLE of teaching a class or single student.  Every black belt has the obligation to assist in ensuring that the style continues to the next generation.  But that isn't to say that every black belt must constantly teach a class or run a school.  Some folks just don't have the talents along those lines; they may (as was said above) simply be an example for others to see, or provide the occasional tip while training with other students.  Others aren't interested for one reason or another, perhaps nothing more than simply lacking the time in their lives to dedicate to teaching on a regular basis.

Yes, you learn a lot by teaching.  But there are other ways to learn and grow, and for some people, the best choice is simply to train and and help along the way, rather than a formal instructional position.


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## Carol (Oct 23, 2009)

James Kovacich said:


> That would depend on if it is "instructor training" or not. I can see how some schools could misuse this type of training. But the bottom line is it is still training and as long as they are students in training (which they pay for) and not employees of the school. They are there for their education.
> 
> When I was a lower level apprentice instructor and the other instructors could not make it in, my brother-in-law (who was my instructor at that time)  put me in front to teach his class and I made a lot of mistakes. Thats how we learn what it takes to teach.
> 
> But you wer probably referring to the mis-uses.



Yup, I was referring to the misuses.  

A black belt candidate/student shouldn't be exploited for illicit labor, and the other students at the school shouldn't have to feel the effects of litigation (should something go wrong).

Sorry to be on the soapbox about it  this issue in general is a major pet peeve of mine -- not just with martial arts but in other environments as well.


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## dbell (Oct 23, 2009)

Tames D said:


> I'm always curious about this. And although I know the reasons for some who require their BB's to teach as a stipulation for their certificate, I always come back to the same question, and that is, WTF? And to take it a step further, some require their students to teach for free. Again, WTF?
> 
> Upon earning our high school diploma and our college degree, we're not required to teach. Those that become teachers, are usually studying for that profession. Why is Martial Arts different?
> 
> ...



When my students reach 1st Dan, they are required to teach for free (although they no longer pay for their classes once they reach 1st Dan, unless it is an outsider's seminar or some such), if they wish to continue to be belted upward.  When they are 2nd Dan, they still teach for free and are required to teach, and when they reach 3rd Dan, IF they want to teach, I'll pay them to teach.

1st and 2nd Dan's to me are "assistant teachers" and need the experience to more understand the art by trying to pass what they have been taught on to others.  The student teacher begins to now look at the art closer and in telling and showing it to others they will hopefully get a better understanding of what they have learned/are learning themselves.

Once they have the 3rd Dan, which is when they have their "license" to teach, it is their call if they want to teach or not.  (If they don't teach, they probably won't be going up the ranks from there, but then again, that is their call.)


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## dbell (Oct 23, 2009)

Tames D said:


> Would you allow an excellent student, with a great attitude, to continue training under you if he wasn't interested in teaching?



Yes.  Once my students reach black belt they don't pay to come to classes anymore anyway.  But, if they want to go to 2nd Dan, 3rd Dan and on they need to teach with me in the room watching (I don't just have them teach and leave the room/dojo/etc, I hang there with them, helping when needed, etc.).  When they get their 3rd Dan, that gives them the ability via my giving them a Menkyo/License to teach the art by opening their own school.  If they haven't taught in front of me, I'm not going to give them that ability.

(Doesn't stop them from opening their own school anyway, under a different name and a different art name, but if they do that, I don't want them teaching or training at my school anyway!!)

I will continue to teach them the black belt things as if they were belting up, but will not belt them beyond 1st Dan.


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## MJS (Oct 23, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> I don't require my dan students to teach. Why not? Well, frankly there's an art and science to teaching too, and I don't pretend to be able to pass it along to my students.
> 
> I also don't believe in short-changing my other students by asking them to be patient with an apprentice teacher. They come to my dojo to train with me. And they do. When I am no longer able to teach, I will close my school.


 
I agree, but this is why in my post, I suggested that the new teacher is gradually brought into the teaching phase. I do think there should be someone capable of teaching. If I were the sole teacher, this means I can never get sick, injured, take a break, take a vacation, etc. So, in a way, I'm still shortchanging them if they come to the school, but I'm too ill to teach and have to close down for a day or two.

Edit: Ooopps..I stand corrected.  I looked back and didn't say what I thought I did.  Let me clarify.  When I started teaching, I was gradually introduced into it.  I just did the warmups, then the other inst. took over.  Eventually I did the warmups and the punches and kicks.  Eventually more and more duties were placed upon me, until one day I went in and was told the entire class was mine.  The head inst. was there in case I needed help, but for that entire hour, it was all me.  Everything went well.


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## ap Oweyn (Oct 23, 2009)

I don't think that black belts should be required to teach.  I was _asked_ to teach by instructors I greatly respected and liked.  So I was happy to do so.  I was also not _paying_ for tuition at that point.  So I could come and go as I pleased, taking any class I wanted, for free.  So that doesn't seem like an unfair deal to me.

That's my personal situation though.  I understand it doesn't work that way everywhere.

The idea that teaching is required because it enhances a student's understanding of their art seems slightly flawed to me.  Because it overlooks the fundamental fact that time NOT spent teaching could be time spent training.  And the unassailable fact that training _also_ improves your understanding of your art.  

I think you could even go so far as to say that teaching is something of a sacrifice in terms of your own training.  My conceptual understanding of it increased when I started teaching.  Finding ways to convey understanding to other people forced me to crystallize my own understanding first.  And that's a valuable exercise.  At the same time, when you're teaching, you're often not _training_.  And if you've only got finite time, then one is going to take place at the expense of the other.

It's also an unassailable fact that practicing teaching will make you a better teacher.  And since most black belts I know had a clear interest in teaching, then getting experience as a teacher only made sense.  I'm of the mind that you're going to be a bad teacher before you're a good one.  And doing so when you've got the backup of a good teacher is a good place to start.

Basically, it comes down to your conceptualization of what the black belt (or whatever measure you choose) means.  Does it denote proficiency in performance?  If so, then each rank beyond that would suggest heightened performance.  And that would likely require more training than teaching.  But if the black belt denotes a level ownership of and responsibility for the future of the art, then teaching is probably a big part of that.

I think this is going to vary from school to school.  One thing I would say, though, is that the priorities of the school are going to affect the perception of the black belt.  If your school has some strong competitive format, for instance, some arena in which performance can be evaluated, then teaching may not be such a focus.  For instance, a BJJ school may have more vested interest in seeing their black belt further his fight record than in getting free teaching out of him.

Take another school, one that doesn't focus on a format like that, and there are fewer analogous ways to assess proficiency.  So the ability to teach and convey technique may be focused on more heavily.  

Either way, I wouldn't insist that a black belt teach.  If he wants my endorsement as a teacher, then I would.  But if he simply wants to train, compete, whatever, then his understanding of his art is going to benefit just as much from the doing as it would from the explaining.  Maybe more.


Stuart


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## James Kovacich (Oct 23, 2009)

ap Oweyn said:


> I don't think that black belts should be required to teach. I was _asked_ to teach by instructors I greatly respected and liked. So I was happy to do so. I was also not _paying_ for tuition at that point. So I could come and go as I pleased, taking any class I wanted, for free. So that doesn't seem like an unfair deal to me.
> 
> That's my personal situation though. I understand it doesn't work that way everywhere.
> 
> ...


 
I think your view weighs heavily on the statement "At the same time, when you're teaching, you're often not _training_. And if you've only got finite time, then one is going to take place at the expense of the other."

If a school only has one class a day, then I see your point. But if you looked at your instructor training (which should start before BB) as assisting with classes that are not your own. It's actually much harder to assist for 1 or 2 classes and then train in your own class.

At one point in my brother-in-laws school, I assisted for 1 or 2 classes and trained my classes which were separate: Karate and Judo/Jujutsu and Kobudo. 

When Aikido and Kumiuchi (which is full contact kickboxing annd Judo) were integrated in as the school grew, the schedule got divided into alternating days with Karate achoring 1 day and Judo anchoring the other day.

But either way, even after the classes got divided up into 2 days, you can see that one could easily do 3 or 4 classes in a day. 

It's a part of the learning process. But there was an option to train as a fighter where the standards were differant and teaching was not required. But teaching certificates were also separate.


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## MJS (Oct 23, 2009)

ap Oweyn said:


> I don't think that black belts should be required to teach. I was _asked_ to teach by instructors I greatly respected and liked. So I was happy to do so. I was also not _paying_ for tuition at that point. So I could come and go as I pleased, taking any class I wanted, for free. So that doesn't seem like an unfair deal to me.
> 
> That's my personal situation though. I understand it doesn't work that way everywhere.
> 
> ...


 
Bold part mine.  IMO, I thnk you hit the nail on the head with this.  This is something that I experienced as well.  While I have no issues with teaching, I also wanted my training time as well.  There were many times when I'd show up for a class, with the intent of taking it, but ended up helping to teach.  Every now and then...sure, no problem.  All the time..well, thats not right IMO.


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## ChingChuan (Oct 23, 2009)

I also wanted to point that out . 

As far as I know, as a black belt you're not required to teach in my style, but you can be asked to keep an eye on a beginner and teach them some basics. If the beginner stays, you'll be asked to teach them a lot - and that means you'll miss quite a few classes... 'black belts' still have to pay for their classes and I really can imagine them getting a bit sick of teaching beginners while they can't improve their own skills. I've never heard them complain of it, but for me, it would be a bit of a problem. Especially as we've only got three classes a week (I can only attend two). There are so many things to learn, as people here often point out, reaching 'black belt' isn't the end of the learning process - there are many forms and techniques and applications still to learn and by being forced to teach (too much), you're essential sacrificing all of your hard work in order to help others learn. It's alright if you realize this and voluntarily choose it, but I think it is wrong to demand something like that from everyone...

However, I agree that teaching aids your understanding of a technique. But teaching, to me, isn't the best or only way to deepen your understanding of the art...


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## James Kovacich (Oct 23, 2009)

Teaching allows you to catch things you might of overlooked otherwise. Even at the most basic level, asissting beginners, you should catch things that are wrong that you've done yourself from time to time but didn't necesarily see it as wrong.


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## ap Oweyn (Oct 23, 2009)

James Kovacich said:


> I think your view weighs heavily on the statement "At the same time, when you're teaching, you're often not _training_. And if you've only got finite time, then one is going to take place at the expense of the other."
> 
> If a school only has one class a day, then I see your point. But if you looked at your instructor training (which should start before BB) as assisting with classes that are not your own. It's actually much harder to assist for 1 or 2 classes and then train in your own class.
> 
> ...


 
If you've got that kinda time, sure.  Personally, my work-life balance doesn't really afford me that sort of liberty.  It did back then, and so I did that.  But now?  Nah.  And I'm sure I'm not the only one in that boat.

None of which is an argument against it being _valuable_ for black belts to teach.  That's a different question.


Stuart


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## Brandon Fisher (Oct 23, 2009)

I expect my black belts to assist when needed not teach their is a difference.  Teaching is my responsibility as the senior black belt of which I teach or am present to observe each and every class.  I have 2 others that take lead and teach one is a 4th Dan and the other is my wife who is preparing for her 3rd Dan.  I have a shodan who I have work with one or 2 students during class if needed.  I don't pay my black belts I still believe in helping your sensei when needed not for pay but for what has been given to you over many years.  I always felt it was a honor to have sensei ask me for help, it meant they had the confidence and trust in me to do a good job.


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## Tames D (Oct 23, 2009)

ACJ said:


> How do you justify everyone doing a certain drill that is quite core in your art if some people don't have any interest in that drill, if they don't want to do that drill? Think of instructing as another drill, one that may or may not be crucial to your art.quote]
> 
> I'm sorry, but I don't think of teaching as just another drill. Teaching is an important responsibility, and a job. If a student is not interested in doing the drills, then I have to wonder why he's enrolled in the class in the first place. I think that is quite a bit different than a student that is not interested in teaching.


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## Tames D (Oct 23, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> I don't require my dan students to teach. Why not? Well, frankly there's an art and science to teaching too, and I don't pretend to be able to pass it along to my students.
> 
> I also don't believe in short-changing my other students by asking them to be patient with an apprentice teacher. They come to my dojo to train with me. And they do. When I am no longer able to teach, I will close my school.


 
Well said. 

I remember being invited by a friend to observe a class at the school his son was attending. The 7th degree head instructor/owner never came into the dojo. Instead, he spent the whole class time smoking outside the entrance door. The "instructor" that night was a brown belt, who in my opinion, didnt have the experience or the skill to be in that position. I felt bad for him because it was obvious he was in over his head, and was very uncomfortable.

My buddy (who has no MA experience) asked for my opinion after class, and I basically told him he should have a talk with the "Master", and insist he get his *** inside the dojo and teach.


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## Tames D (Oct 23, 2009)

celtic_crippler said:


> IMHO...if one can not adequately demonstrate and communicate an understanding of the material; concepts, principles, applications, etc then they have no business strapping on a black belt.
> 
> Requiring "black belts to teach" is the simplest way of gauging this for an instructor.
> 
> ...


 
I respect what your saying CC. and I'll just leave it at that.


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## Tames D (Oct 23, 2009)

James Kovacich said:


> When I was a lower level apprentice instructor and the other instructors could not make it in, my brother-in-law (who was my instructor at that time) put me in front to teach his class and I made a lot of mistakes. Thats how we learn what it takes to teach.quote]
> 
> With all do respect James, how did your students benefit from this?


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## Brandon Fisher (Oct 23, 2009)

Tames D said:


> James Kovacich said:
> 
> 
> > When I was a lower level apprentice instructor and the other instructors could not make it in, my brother-in-law (who was my instructor at that time) put me in front to teach his class and I made a lot of mistakes. Thats how we learn what it takes to teach.quote]
> ...


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## Tames D (Oct 23, 2009)

Brandon Fisher said:


> Tames D said:
> 
> 
> > So you have never learned from your instructors mistakes?
> ...


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## ACJ (Oct 24, 2009)

Tames D said:


> I'm sorry, but I don't think of teaching as just another drill. Teaching is an important responsibility, and a job. If a student is not interested in doing the drills, then I have to wonder why he's enrolled in the class in the first place. I think that is quite a bit different than a student that is not interested in teaching.



You shouldn't think of instructing as JUST a drill, but if you just say a drill is a skill building exercise, then teaching IS a drill, under that definition. So why should a student say "Well I'll do those punching drills, but I won't do this drill to deepen my understanding of the art because it includes teaching."?


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## Brandon Fisher (Oct 24, 2009)

Tames D said:


> Brandon Fisher said:
> 
> 
> > My instructor never made a mistake
> ...


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## ACJ (Oct 24, 2009)

Tames D said:


> Brandon Fisher said:
> 
> 
> > My instructor never made a mistake
> ...


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## James Kovacich (Oct 24, 2009)

Tames D said:


> James Kovacich said:
> 
> 
> > When I was a lower level apprentice instructor and the other instructors could not make it in, my brother-in-law (who was my instructor at that time) put me in front to teach his class and I made a lot of mistakes. Thats how we learn what it takes to teach.quote]
> ...


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## MJS (Oct 24, 2009)

James Kovacich said:


> Teaching allows you to catch things you might of overlooked otherwise. Even at the most basic level, asissting beginners, you should catch things that are wrong that you've done yourself from time to time but didn't necesarily see it as wrong.


 
Agreed on that!  Seems like when we do something, in the non teaching atmosphere, we're not thinking, so to speak, whereas when we're showing someone something, we now have to think....  Why are we doing this?  Why do we punch this way?


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## Milt G. (Oct 25, 2009)

ACJ said:


> How do you justify everyone doing a certain drill that is quite core in your art if some people don't have any interest in that drill, if they don't want to do that drill? Think of instructing as another drill, one that may or may not be crucial to your art.


 
Hello,

I feel that the students have chosen, and are in a particular school, to learn what the teacher is teaching.

This may be considered "over simplification"...  But...  I think that if students do not have an interest in what the teacher is teaching, and feels is important for student development, then the student should be studying elsewhere.

The responsibility of what is appropriate to teach, and how it is taught is the sole responsibility of the teacher.  Good or bad.  The student must decide if the situation is a good fit, or not, for them.  Certainly not to seem like I feel the teacher is always right.  We have all made mistakes. (still make them daily)  Your "metal" is in if, and how, you learn from your mistakes and move forward.

When the students are allowed to decide what, and how, the teacher teaches we have the proverbial "cart pulling the horse" scenario.  Bottom line.  If the student is not interested, to the point of discounting, what is being taught by the teacher then the school is probably not a good fit for the student.  As students we will all encounter things we do not see as necessary to learn.  If you "stay the course" more often then not you will find that much of what is taught has merit.

Thank you,
Milt G.


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## Tames D (Oct 25, 2009)

Brandon Fisher said:


> Tames D said:
> 
> 
> > I sure hope that was tonque in cheek because everyone makes mistakes.
> ...


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## Brandon Fisher (Oct 25, 2009)

Tames D said:


> Brandon Fisher said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, that was tongue in cheek. But the fact is, if a teacher is making alot of mistakes, it's not a good learning environment for the students. It may be a great learning experience for the 'new teacher', but as paying students, they deserve better.
> ...


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## James Kovacich (Oct 25, 2009)

Milt G. said:


> Hello,
> 
> I feel that the students have chosen, and are in a particular school, to learn what the teacher is teaching.
> 
> ...


Excellent post. My brother-in-law (instructor) once told me after I told him why he shouldn't promote someone (ignorant me) "Oh your ready to take over the class now?" I got the message.


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## Milt G. (Oct 26, 2009)

James Kovacich said:


> Excellent post. My brother-in-law (instructor) once told me after I told him why he shouldn't promote someone (ignorant me) "Oh your ready to take over the class now?" I got the message.


 
Thank you.
Milt G.


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## terryl965 (Oct 26, 2009)

To me teaching is another tool to help you grow as a martial artist, but if that is not what one wants fine do not teach but remember we all teach everyday. One journey never ends at the door but it goes beyond all matters in this Universe.


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## Mark Lynn (Nov 5, 2009)

tshadowchaser said:


> I require ALL students to teach. They start at white belt level and continue as long as they are with me.
> After i know a student is capible of preforming a technique , form, whatevre, I have them start showing it to newer students. I watch, correct, or give hints as how to instruct better.
> If they are unable to pass on their knowledge then I am not sure they really have that knowledge



Good point

I teach in a rec center part time, so at times I can have an influx of new students at the start of a new session when they just sign up.  We're a new program so I don't have home grown students (BBs, or senior brown belts) to help in class yet.  So early on if I had a student that was really good for their level in say basics, or a kata.  I would assign that student to help another student learn that particular item.

This has reaped many benefits for me and the students alike.  I of course watch the student and at the end have the student checked over by myself with the assistant along side of me.  But the student teaching the other learns, the students in the class see the responsibility given to that student and they want or desire the same so they study or train harder.  And the student learning under the student sees what is expected of them to know at a certain rank and so on.

I have smaller classes so I can do this and I am able to have a watchful eye on them.

This is off topic in a sense but I believe it plays a part in the overall scheme of things.


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## Mark Lynn (Nov 5, 2009)

One point that I think is kind of over looked is what type of school is it that is requiring their students to teach.

Is it a full time stand a lone (brick and mortar) school?

How many members?

Is there an instructor training program available?

Are the instructors being compensated in some fashion i.e. reduced tuition, extra classes for instructors, increased rank etc. etc.?

And one of the most important questions to consider what do you mean required to teach?  Is it a set class, or is it to help out in a class?

Martial art schools are very diverse and where a student/instructor trains often times colors their opinions.  If you train in a back yard and it is a very causal type of thing no money (or very little) changes hands, semi set classes etc. etc.  With one chief instructor than I can ssume a person even a senior ranked student wouldn't want to take away their training time to teach newbies, other than using them as cannon fodder so to speak.

However if it is a business (as in a stand alone school or a part time school) then the new students (and any students) are the life blood of the school (income) and they are important to the growth of the school.  With more classes comes the burden of teaching more diverse ranks etc. etc. so the head instructor starts to groom assistants and such.  In an effort to help grow the program.  Growing the program can mean more income, more equipment etc. etc. and in turn providing a better learning experience for the student body overall.

If the program requires someone to teach as part of the rank progression and the student wants to achieve that rank then they know what they are getting in for up front and there should be no ill feelings because of it.  If the student is in leadership development type of a program and teaching is part of it, again there should be no ill feelings because of it.  If the students is getting reduced tuition, or compensated in some form for their teaching duties then there should be no ill feelings for it.

I don't believe that helping out in class is the same thing as running a class on a weekly, or daily basis.  "Requiring your black belts (or a person ) to teach" as in stated in the topic question can be either one and I personally see them as two totally different situations.


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## Mark Lynn (Nov 5, 2009)

Milt G. said:


> Hello,
> 
> I fully agree.  I allow those actively teaching free tuition.  For black belts I will, usually, waive the monthly fees if they teach a minimum of one class weekly.  Of course, some wish to teach more then that.  If it is possible, it will usually be allowed.  As the chief instructor of a school, I feel that you should not allow a large majority of the teaching to be done by others.  You should continue to be VERY involved in all aspects of teaching to enhance your own learning and understanding.
> 
> ...



Good post
Although I disagree with the underlined part.  As GM Remy use to tell us at his camps, we learn more from sharing the art with others.  We grow and the student grows.  Even though at the time I was a BB in TKD, I wasn't in Modern Arnis and I learned from working with my friends on it.

IN my situation I let my students lead from the get go.  They might not be teaching persay but they start out leading the class in their very early classes.  I ask for volunteers, pick one student and have them lead basics, I tell them what to say and they follow suit and they take control.  Believe me this is very basic stuff "step forward in forward stance" etc. etc.  But this helps get the kids involved and they rock.

Later on if a student is use to this and can do something well for their rank, I'll give them the option of helping out a lower ranked student in learning say a kata to a certain point.  This, as I stated in an earlier post helps both parties.  Of course I always recognize the student for their help, and while it might only be 15 minutes they really take it to heart.

I didn't believe this before and it took me a while to learn this, but I believe now it is OK on a very limited basis.  But I don't think the student needs to be a BROWN, 1st-2nd Dan to help out in class. 

With respect
Mark


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## Kwan Jang (Nov 5, 2009)

We do have a six month leadership requirement for students reaching black belt ranking. We do it for their own growth and development and to  learn leadership skills. They are required to assist with a class at least 1-2 times per week as part of their training towards their black belt. They ususally are just "role models of excellence" and will help demonstrate along side an instructor/paid staff member what we are working on. It does help them gain a deeper understanding of the material and IMO is very helpful to their growth.

I do NOT believe in exploiting your students and forcing them into slave labor or trying to have them do your job for you. Even from a business standpoint, this is a poor move. The quality of your "product" in the marketplace is the quality of your students, especially your advanced students and black belts. If you are not putting out a quality product, you can't expect long term results and profit. IMO, my underbelt students deserve fully qualified instructors to be teaching and leading their class. I do have the BB candidates help for their own sake, but I would never expose my underbelts to them doing the teaching on their own. And with many of them, I'm honestly quite relieved when they have fulfilled their requirement and I can get them back off the floor during the underbelt classes. 

My full time staff instructors are all at least 4th dan and excellent teachers and if I am not personally teaching a class, I know and have total faith that they are doing a great job (depending on which group it is), possibly even better than I would. I also know that I pay them very well and my goal is to be able to pay them at least $100,000/yr. each. I consider them and have trained them to be professionals, I feel they should be paid like ones. Though I admit, our school doesn't generate enough income for me to pull this off...yet. My part time assistant instructors are all currently at least 2nd dans and they may lead a group within a class or lead breakaway segments, but even they are still under the direct supervision of the full instructors during a class.


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