# for dale seago



## Hanzo04 (Jun 28, 2004)

do you know of shidoshi james morganelli in illinois? he says he's been training in MA's for 23yrs and went to japan in '95 straight out of college in '98 he came back with a shidoshi license from soke hatsumi. my question is- is this possible? i was talking to him last summer and he said it takes an average of 10years just to get good! i am in know way doubting his skills. i know from what other people tell me that he is very good.i'm just curious as to why the Bujinkan ranks this way.


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## Dale Seago (Jun 29, 2004)

Yes, it's certainly possible, as there are no specific "time in grade" requirements imposed Bujinkan-wide for ranks. In my own dojo, for example, I've had someone take as long as five years to reach shodan. One person, however, was unquestionably "there" in ten months: He was a military guy with a lot of years of other martial-art experience, and simply picked things up quickly.

Ranks are sometimes given in Japan as "thank-you" gifts, and sometimes as something to inspire you to keep going and growing -- or, as some of us put it sometimes, "to give you enough rope to hang yourself" if you don't take it in the right spirit.

I've trained with Jim Morganelli on a number of occasions, both in Japan and here in the States. He's good, and I recommend him as an instructor if you're thinking of training with him. His primary teacher, Nagato sensei, is one of my favorite shihan to train with over there. He's sometimes referred to as the "Japanese 'Terminator'". I had an especially good time with him in April of 2002: It was right after Hatsumi sensei's Sunday Hombu class, and just before he started my dear wife sneaked over and explained to him that it was my birthday, and in the US we have this tradition of a "birthday spanking".

I ended up being his only uke for the entire 2-hour class. . .

For a more comprehensive overview of ranking in the Bujinkan, see this part of the FAQ page at my website.


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## Hanzo04 (Jun 29, 2004)

thanks a lot. what about ken harding he says it takes four years to reach shodan at his dojo.


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## Dale Seago (Jun 29, 2004)

Hanzo04 said:
			
		

> thanks a lot. what about ken harding he says it takes four years to reach shodan at his dojo.



Again, dojo are variable, and so are individual abilities and learning capacities. From what I've observed over the years in my own dojo and others, an "average" time to shodan is about 3 years.

Ken Harding  left the Bujinkan a couple of years ago, so I can't really address that except to say that he can rank his students any way he sees fit -- their ranks won't be registered or recognized at the Bujinkan Hombu in Japan. I don't recall actually training with him, but remember him as a decent person. 

I have no idea why he decided to leave, but he had the personal integrity to actually resign from The Booj to do his own thing instead of just letting his shidoshikai membership lapse, and he does not claim any currently recognized rank or any current affiliation with the organization. I respect that.


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## Dale Seago (Jun 29, 2004)

Dale Seago said:
			
		

> His primary teacher, Nagato sensei, is one of my favorite shihan to train with over there.



Correction: I meant to say "One of his teachers". His primary teacher for most of his time there was Nakadai sensei, whose teaching of the fundamentals is legendary. And by the way, Jim didn't begin his Booj training with his trip to Japan, though he might look at it that way himself.  :wink2: He'd done the Stephen K. Hayes stuff prior to going over there. These days he trains regularly with Jack Hoban, the senior Booj instructor in the US.


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## Hanzo04 (Jun 29, 2004)

and i was just about to start a new thread on who is the foremost experts on Bujinkan in the U.S.


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## Dale Seago (Jun 29, 2004)

Hanzo04 said:
			
		

> and i was just about to start a new thread on who is the foremost experts on Bujinkan in the U.S.



Mileage will vary considerably depending on who you talk to. We're all different, and people will inevitably relate more to some personalities and teaching styles than to others. And as I said on the part about ranks on my FAQ page, "Dan ranks are not certain indicators of an instructor's technical proficiency or teaching ability, and they do not confer any specific authority over others of a lower grade."

'Bout the only thing I can say that seems pretty consistent is that teachers attract students they "mesh" well with. . .which holds true for any art or school, not just the Bujinkan.


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## Shogun (Jun 29, 2004)

While we are on the subject....How is Bill Atkins Shihan? he is the Junidan that one of the Shidoshi-ho in my area trains under.

thanks man/men.


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## Dale Seago (Jun 29, 2004)

Shogun said:
			
		

> While we are on the subject....How is Bill Atkins Shihan? he is the Junidan that one of the Shidoshi-ho in my area trains under.



Well, if what I saw at the April Tai Kai in Japan, and again over this past weekend, is any indication he's doing great.   :supcool: I've known him since we began training at about the same time at the original Northern California dojo in Stockton with Mark Hodel under Jack Hoban's guidance, and Bill is definitely one of the best Booj folks in the US.

We just had our annual Bujinkan Buyu Camp this past Saturday and Sunday. Jack Hoban was teaching, as always, and Bill Atkins taught as well. Lots of shidoshi around, and by my count there were ten at the "judan+" level. 

The way the setup works is that Jack teaches a bit on Friday evening and on Saturday & Sunday mornings; then after lunch on both days, we have "breakout" sessions where several shidoshi will be teaching on various subjects of their choice, at the same time, for an hour and a half; then after a brief break there'll be another 1.5 hour session with another group of shidoshi teaching on different "tracks" (which allows the first group to attend some other shidoshi's classes if they want to, and vice versa). So everyone gets to "tailor" their personal training experience at the camp. Kind of a "Bujinkan buffet" where you just go and load up your plate with whatever tasty budo YOU want each day.

Anyone can attend, and any shidoshi who wants to can teach.

It's kind of a Native American "tribal hoop" concept, as when Lakota bands would come together in the summer for a rip-roaring good time, exchange of information and ideas, trade, and general "cultural maintenance". . .and then the bands would go back to their own territories to do their own thing until the following year.

Over the years, we've built something very solid and sustainable with this approach, and this year it's finally expanding to the East Coast in September. See you there, perhaps?


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## Shogun (Jun 29, 2004)

I have never trained with Atkins Shihan, just heard how skilled he is. I have only been training on and off in Ninjutsu for about a year. No rank yet. I mostly train in Aikido/jutsu at the shrine, and Jujutsu long distance courses. No good anything (exept Aiki) within 45 miles of home. plenty of TKD schools, ITA schools, and cookie cutters, though.


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## Hanzo04 (Jun 29, 2004)

i'm sorry but i gotta ask. why does soke hatsumi have rank from 11th to 15th dan? what the piont?


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## kenanderson (Jun 29, 2004)

Not to intrude on a question for Mr. Seago, but here are some sources for an answer to your question:
1. http://www.bujinkansf.org/faq/#ranks
2. http://www.jigokudojo.com/ -- click the faqs 

- Ken Anderson


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## Shogun (Jun 30, 2004)

> Over the years, we've built something very solid and sustainable with this approach, and this year it's finally expanding to the East Coast in September. See you there, perhaps?


Maybe. Its a long distance, but who knows. maybe I can get some serious instruction. It seems that most teachers I train under just want to walk circles and call it instruction. That is why I do the Home study courses. They dont throw nonsense in my face, and try to pass it off as teaching. how can they claim to be teaching, if I am not learning?


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## Dale Seago (Jun 30, 2004)

Shogun said:
			
		

> Maybe. Its a long distance, but who knows. maybe I can get some serious instruction.



Serious instruction is what it's all about, though it's hugely fun as well; and with Hatsumi sensei not teaching outside Japan anymore, it's the most bang for the buck you can get in the States. Make the trip in September (I'm going, and I'd be delighted to meet you) and see for yourself, then next year you can make a shorter trip down the coast to San Francisco instead.   :wink2: 

I think the Eastern camp will also feature Ed Martin (he normally attends, but  couldn't make it last weekend because he was in Spain), and Steffen Froehlich from Germany is doing the Eastern camp this year instead of the Western one as he usually does. There'll be lots of good folks to play with, and since it's literally a "camp" sort of thing, you also have a captive group of shidoshi and shihan to hang out with and bug with questions after the formal training is done for the day.


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## Shogun (Jun 30, 2004)

I am thinking of going. gotta save though. do you have any Idea of Cost, info on living quarters, etc.

thanks


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## Cryozombie (Jul 1, 2004)

Shogun said:
			
		

> I am thinking of going. gotta save though. do you have any Idea of Cost, info on living quarters, etc.
> 
> thanks



I believe the site said it was 175, training only, or 295, w/ lodging and meals


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## Shogun (Jul 1, 2004)

$295? not bad......I think I will plan on going.


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## Cryozombie (Jul 1, 2004)

I would love to go... provided there is still space when I actually have the money.


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## Shogun (Jul 1, 2004)

What is the registration cut off date?


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## Dale Seago (Jul 2, 2004)

Shogun said:
			
		

> What is the registration cut off date?



If WIN runs it the same way they do the West Coast camps -- and I'm sure they will -- registration will be open for the "whole package" of training and onsite lodging & meals until they run out. Out here, for instance, there are only so many buildings available on the site for lodging, and the dining hall only has capacity for a certain number of people.

However, registration for "training only" will probably be open right up until the camp starts. The problem won't be that only X number of people can train, but that only a certain amount of logistical support will be available. I'm sure information will be made available on alternative lodgings and such in the area, though.


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## Shogun (Jul 3, 2004)

where is next years (05) gonna be? or the next west coast one? I am still not sure if I am going yet.
Dale, when is the next big seminar you are holding?


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## Dale Seago (Jul 3, 2004)

Shogun said:
			
		

> where is next years (05) gonna be? or the next west coast one? I am still not sure if I am going yet.
> Dale, when is the next big seminar you are holding?



Probably the East Coast one will be in the same place, depending on how this first one goes; but the West Coast one, ever since we had Hatsumi sensei there for a Tai Kai in '89, has always been in the same spot: the Marin Headlands, north just across the Golden Gate Bridge (literally) from San Francisco.

I don't have any major seminars planned: Most of the ones I've done out of my own area have been in Colorado and Utah; but I'm always open to consider one anywhere. If anyone wanted to set one up in or near Seattle (hint, hint), my wife's mom lives there and we could stay with her while we're there, which would also make the whole thing cheaper -- though as it is, I'm about as cheap a martial whore as you're likely to find anyway.   :boing2:


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## Shogun (Jul 6, 2004)

I, of course, wouldnt be able to set one up. I am a lowly student of about 5 martial arts, 19 years of age, with low income. however, it may be possible to get other people to help me out on this. Cheap whores make the world go 'round! lol.


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## Kalifallen (Nov 4, 2004)

Hi,
Dale, are you going to be at the Richard Van Donk Training camp in March of 2005? Do you know if you, or anyone else in the SF area, will have any mini seminars going on in March? 
Just wondering


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## Limeydog (Nov 11, 2004)

Hi Everyone,

I had the pleasure of training with Shihan Bill Atkins for just over a year when I lived in Sonora (I now live in LA). He really opened my eyes to what a martial artist/warrior should be. His skill in Budo Taijutsu is quite incredible...borderline spooky sometimes. Ah the memories of flying thorugh the air with no effort. A bearded grin looking down on me...priceless memories.

Regards
Patrick


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 11, 2004)

If anyone would consider going overseas, there's always www.kaigousuru.com


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## Dale Seago (Mar 1, 2005)

Dale Seago said:
			
		

> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Info on the 2005 West Coast Buyu Camp is up now, at http://www.winjutsu.com/seminars/buyucamp/


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