# Identity Verification?



## Bob Hubbard (Jul 10, 2010)

We're discussing putting in a way for members to verify their identity.

Right now, we don't require posting of peoples real names, but we do require them at registration.  Occasionally an issue comes up where an identity is in question and we've asked for proof.  This proof has always been a copy of some form of government issued ID, with all the info removed except for name, city/state and month/year of birth. We've asked that all other information be blacked out or cut out such as street addresses, zip codes, ID numbers, etc. but that the copy be notarized to confirm it's valid and not a mock up.  People have been understandably concerned with this due to misunderstandings of how identity theft works.

Our concern's always been to keep out the trouble makers and spammers, while protecting our members privacy.

With that in mind, we've been discussing alternate ways to validate accounts as 'legit' without causing privacy concerns.

What we're looking at doing is adding an optional (as in not-mandatory) validation system offering several ways to confirm that you are who you claim to be.  These would be

1- Send in notarized information as previously mentioned.  This documentation would be destroyed afterwards.
2- Use a third party ID validation service that will give us an OK, without us having any access to your info. These services do cost a few bucks, but have the added value of being useful across the web.
3- Have 2 or more "known good" members vouch for you.

All MT staff are validated automatically due to the NDA requirements they've completed. Also 'valid' would be our Advisors, most of our supporting members, and anyone whose been to a M&G or other endorsed event.

You'd get a tag "Verified Member" and other members would know you're not a sock puppet or bot.  

This is as I said just being discussed and isn't policy. 
It's also an optional thing, and would be free, at least from our end.

Thoughts?


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## Tez3 (Jul 10, 2010)

I'm quite happy to prove who I am ( I have to prove it myself every so often, old age you know lol) but don't know quite what would prove to you who I am as I don't know what you would accept with me being a foreigner to you! Some members ID would be in their own languages too.

Side note....as someone who has to check IDs quite a lot I can't be the only who forgets who she is....I'm often asked 'Don't you know who I am!' it must upset them as they are often angry when they say this.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 10, 2010)

For non-US, it'd be:
- copy of government issued ID, redacted for your protection.
OR
- use a 3rd party validation service.
OR
- Have someone vouch for you.
OR
- point us at a reliable website that we can confirm your with (say someone says they are an instructor at a school, we can check the schools website, maybe give the school a call or email to confirm)


Military and LEO's already have some systems in place to confirm ID, we might be able to tap into those given we have members of both on staff.  Also, sites like Ebay have systems they use, we might be able to tap into those too.

One thing we would never do is ask for tax payer ids, social security numbers, bank info, etc. We don't need it, and anyone claiming to represent us who does needs to be reported to the cops.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jul 10, 2010)

I am a meat Popsicle.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 10, 2010)

ID's we're not familiar with, we'd probably have to research a bit to ensure they were legit.  We might end up with a scaled system with non-english folks having to use a combination or a 3rd party option.   

The 2 services I've been looking at charge like $5-10US for a "internet ID". I'd probably credit those folks something towards an SM for going through the trouble.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 10, 2010)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I am a meat Popsicle.


A corn dog?


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## Tez3 (Jul 10, 2010)

Mmm you just want to do what we do, look at ID with photos so you can laugh at them!! We could have a thread with 'guess who's ID this is' it wouldn't violate privacy because no one looks like their ID photo!


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## Tez3 (Jul 10, 2010)

Bob Hubbard said:


> ID's we're not familiar with, we'd probably have to research a bit to ensure they were legit. We might end up with a scaled system with non-english folks having to use a combination or a 3rd party option.
> 
> *The 2 services I've been looking at charge like $5-10US for a "internet ID". I'd probably credit those folks something towards an SM for going through the trouble.[/*quote]
> 
> ...


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## Bill Mattocks (Jul 10, 2010)

Bob Hubbard said:


> A corn dog?








[yt]
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[/yt]


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## jks9199 (Jul 10, 2010)

Bob Hubbard said:


> ID's we're not familiar with, we'd probably have to research a bit to ensure they were legit.  We might end up with a scaled system with non-english folks having to use a combination or a 3rd party option.
> 
> The 2 services I've been looking at charge like $5-10US for a "internet ID". I'd probably credit those folks something towards an SM for going through the trouble.


On the note of IDs from other countries... Because of where I work, I'm more than passing familiar with IDs from quite a few countries.  Honestly, I don't think it'd be much of a problem.


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## d1jinx (Jul 10, 2010)

I could care less about proving i am who I am if need be.  It wouldn't bother me to send proof.

But I am curious, Why?  Do you really have a problem with false identities?  I mean, what I have thought was people might claim to be something thier not like a 20th degree Ninja from Koga japan.  Seriously, maybe some proof if they claim a certain rank on thier profile to not pass off as something their not I think might be good also.

But then again, who and how can you validate a million different types of certifications?

Oh well, just my $.02.


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## d1jinx (Jul 10, 2010)

.... but it would be nice to see people were verified and who and what they say they are.


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## jks9199 (Jul 10, 2010)

d1jinx said:


> I could care less about proving i am who I am if need be.  It wouldn't bother me to send proof.
> 
> But I am curious, Why?  Do you really have a problem with false identities?  I mean, what I have thought was people might claim to be something thier not like a 20th degree Ninja from Koga japan.  Seriously, maybe some proof if they claim a certain rank on thier profile to not pass off as something their not I think might be good also.
> 
> ...


One thing we're NOT talking about doing is verifying someone's credentials or rank as a martial artist.  We've got some pretty clear criteria about what we'll do if we find serious falsification and what it takes to prove that sort of case.  We also have an established policy about verifying law enforcement officials, if a question arises about their credentials.  This would simply be a confirmation that there is a real, live person behind the screen name.  And it'd be voluntary.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 10, 2010)

The way I look at this, it's not any type of certification or endorsement.  it wouldn't be recognizing rank, etc.  It's just a way that you know a member's who they say they are.

Couple of examples:
We have a number of 'name' level folks on here. Just to pick on 1 as an example, lets look at GoldenDragon7.  That's Dennis Conatser. But how do you 'know'? I can validate him based on the fact that I've done business with him, talked to him extensively on the phone and he's on our Advisory Board. A number of other folks here also know him, so the odds are highly favorable that he (GD7) is in fact DC.

I can confirm that John Bishop, Bob White, Doc, all the current and former staff are who they say they are.  Combination of legal documents, personal interactions, etc. 

We can't vouch that someone claiming X is actually X, but we can remove the doubt they are who they claim to be.

Another example is some names are just plain common. We've had several Bruce Lees sign up, a number of John Smiths, etc.  Common names, but they end up flagged because they're common.  We offer a couple easy ways to confirm, it saves headaches later.

Easiest way to confirm your ID, show up at an event I or our staff or advisors are at and say hi.  It's not fool proof, but at least we'd know you're not some russian hacker's server farm running a bot attack. 

Also, for people who post using their name, and not a handle, it's instant credibility. 

Kinda what's in my head, other than heat damage.


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## Omar B (Jul 10, 2010)

Hows about I send you a scan of my drivers license and then after you look at it delete the file?


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 10, 2010)

Problem with a scan is, well, photoshop.  That's why we've always insisted on it being notarized then redacted. Not foolproof, but a bit more 'binding' (all mods for example have to send in Non-Disclosure Agreements and have them notarized).  Catch is, that's complicated and in some cases expensive, which we want to minimize and simplify.


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 11, 2010)

Personally, I like the idea of knowing the person you're talking to is who they say they are. I'd have zero problem sending you a copy of my DL or passport or whatever. Being a supporting member is proof enough?


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## Tez3 (Jul 11, 2010)

Bob I'm more than happy you contact my instructor for ID, I could send you my work IDs but tbh that only prove what I do not that I actually have anything to do with martial arts! I know one could assume that if ones true the other should be but I've seen enough walts around to know that that isn't necessarily true! When asked what I do I get enough idiots saying that they've done 'cage fighting' and they'll come training which of course they never do.


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## Chris Parker (Jul 11, 2010)

I think what Bob is talking about is more that you are, in truth and fact, Irene Bottomly, rather than, say, Gerald Petersen (made-up name there.... hope there isn't really a Gerald Petersen here....), rather than anything to do with your credentials as a martial artist. For example, we have a member here who claims as his "primary martial art and experience" as 8th Level Vulcan Logic. That would not be called into question in this fashion, but his personal identity would be verified.

Oh, and I am who I say I am too, by the way. That's really a picture of me, anyone here who is a friend on my facebook page can see others to verifiy me, I use my real name, and I am listed as the Instructor for Melbourne on the "locatïons" page of our schools website. Would that be enough?


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## Tez3 (Jul 11, 2010)

Chris Parker said:


> I think what Bob is talking about is more that you are, in truth and fact, Irene Bottomly, rather than, say, Gerald Petersen (made-up name there.... hope there isn't really a Gerald Petersen here....), rather than anything to do with your credentials as a martial artist. For example, we have a member here who claims as his "primary martial art and experience" as 8th Level Vulcan Logic. That would not be called into question in this fashion, but his personal identity would be verified.
> 
> Oh, and I am who I say I am too, by the way. That's really a picture of me, anyone here who is a friend on my facebook page can see others to verifiy me, I use my real name, and I am listed as the Instructor for Melbourne on the "locatïons" page of our schools website. Would that be enough?


 
Trust me, if I made my name up it wouldn't include 'Bottomley' lol, thats my other half's Yorkshire legacy  always fancied something exotic for a name, wouldn't go with the face though rofl. theres a video of me in the MMA section reffing so you can see what I mean, that remind me you can contact them too and they'll say yep, thats the middle aged lady who gets locked into the cage with fit young men! :ultracoolIt's a dirty job but someone has to do it!


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## Omar B (Jul 11, 2010)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Problem with a scan is, well, photoshop.  That's why we've always insisted on it being notarized then redacted. Not foolproof, but a bit more 'binding' (all mods for example have to send in Non-Disclosure Agreements and have them notarized).  Catch is, that's complicated and in some cases expensive, which we want to minimize and simplify.



Then why not scan 2 forms of ID then?  Because really, I'm not going to the effort of going out, finding a notary to sign something for a web site.  This isn't a job man, it's entertainment.


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## Steve (Jul 11, 2010)

I'm not sure I see a lot of value in it.  On a site like Bullshido, it makes more sense.  There people want to get certain tags, like the military tag or a rank tag for their art, or are involved with an investigation, vouching for people and such.  Verifying identity makes sense.  You don't do either of those things here.


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## jks9199 (Jul 11, 2010)

Omar B said:


> Then why not scan 2 forms of ID then?  Because really, I'm not going to the effort of going out, finding a notary to sign something for a web site.  This isn't a job man, it's entertainment.


Once again -- this is not something we're talking about as a general requirement.  And Bob has mentioned at least 4 ways to be verified:
1. Attend a Meet & Greet or similar event where your existence as a living, breathing person can be confirmed.
2. Have 2 known/verified/trusted members vouch for you.
3. Internet ID services
4. Submit a notarized, redacted copy of a government ID.

Staff (above Mentors) & former staff have already been verified as part of the becoming staff.

We currently occasionally require No. 4 from some people, when there are significant concerns about their identity.  That would remain an option when appropriate.


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## Blade96 (Jul 11, 2010)

is this for people like us, or the prove your id thing for guests and lurkers who are thinking about joining?

if its for us i could prove who i am. (My name's Jacklyn anyway. and I've bob on my facebook. How do you do.)



Tez3 said:


> Mmm you just want to do what we do, look at ID with photos so you can laugh at them!! We could have a thread with 'guess who's ID this is' it wouldn't violate privacy because no one looks like their ID photo!



Ewwww, id photos look like prison piccies and mug shots ! :barf: no one's gettin their hands on mine lol


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 11, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> I'm not sure I see a lot of value in it.  On a site like Bullshido, it makes more sense.  There people want to get certain tags, like the military tag or a rank tag for their art, or are involved with an investigation, vouching for people and such.  Verifying identity makes sense.  You don't do either of those things here.


We've discussed adding tags for some things too, once we work out the verification issues.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 11, 2010)

Blade96 said:


> is this for people like us, or the prove your id thing for guests and lurkers who are thinking about joining?
> 
> if its for us i could prove who i am. (My name's Jacklyn anyway. and I've bob on my facebook. How do you do.)
> 
> ...


It's for whoever wants it, in 99% of the cases.  We'll continue to insist in a rare case or 2 regardless (probably average 6-8 a year that we require id proof from).
As I said, it's an optional idea we're tossing around.  

Another thing I'm hoping to do again next year (this years iffy) is another road trip and meet up with as many folks as I can.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 11, 2010)

Omar B said:


> Then why not scan 2 forms of ID then?  Because really, I'm not going to the effort of going out, finding a notary to sign something for a web site.  This isn't a job man, it's entertainment.


Don't have to.  Show up at one of our M&G's and share a couple of cold refreshing beverages with us and we'll confirm you're at least a real person. Now that's more fun that a notary any day.


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## d1jinx (Jul 11, 2010)

Well, one thing is for certain....

NO ONE IN THIER RIGHT MIND WOULD CLAIM TO BE ME!!!!!!

even I tried to be someone else but the name on my I. D. prevented me from entering the party at the white house.....  :erg:


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 11, 2010)

Lol


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 11, 2010)




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## Blade96 (Jul 12, 2010)

Bob Hubbard said:


> It's for whoever wants it, in 99% of the cases.  We'll continue to insist in a rare case or 2 regardless (probably average 6-8 a year that we require id proof from).
> As I said, it's an optional idea we're tossing around.
> 
> Another thing I'm hoping to do again next year (this years iffy) is another road trip and meet up with as many folks as I can.



Coming to Newfoundland one day?

Just sayin.....


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 12, 2010)

Blade96 said:


> Coming to Newfoundland one day?
> 
> Just sayin.....


Possibly.  There's a lady in Nova Scotia I've been dying to meet and shoot for a few years, so I might be alot closer.


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## Ken Morgan (Jul 12, 2010)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Possibly. There's a lady in Nova Scotia I've been dying to meet and shoot for a few years, so I might be alot closer.


 
NS is still forever away from NFLD. It would be cheaper and faster to fly to Europe then to get out to the Island....but then you wouldn't get to meet Blade.....decisions, decisions...


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## Carol (Jul 12, 2010)

Ken Morgan said:


> NS is still forever away from NFLD. It would be cheaper and faster to fly to Europe then to get out to the Island....but then you wouldn't get to meet Blade.....decisions, decisions...



Hope you could stop in NH on the way


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 12, 2010)

OK, here's the solution...

I will volunteer to travel around as needed to confirm that you people are all real and not just sock puppets. I'll just need a small expense account...

It's a dirty job, but someone has to do it...


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 12, 2010)

Carol said:


> Hope you could stop in NH on the way


I'd be coordinating some paid gigs to cover expenses and am sure there's a school or 3 in that general direction that could help me cover travel expenses.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 12, 2010)

Ken Morgan said:


> NS is still forever away from NFLD. It would be cheaper and faster to fly to Europe then to get out to the Island....but then you wouldn't get to meet Blade.....decisions, decisions...


I'm still working on getting out your way. Once I get that figured out, I'll work on planning a Canadian Tour.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 12, 2010)

Dirty Dog said:


> OK, here's the solution...
> 
> I will volunteer to travel around as needed to confirm that you people are all real and not just sock puppets. I'll just need a small expense account...
> 
> It's a dirty job, but someone has to do it...


I'm still trying to get an expense account for me. LOL!


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## Blade96 (Jul 12, 2010)

Ken Morgan said:


> NS is still forever away from NFLD. It would be cheaper and faster to fly to Europe then to get out to the Island....but then you wouldn't get to meet Blade.....decisions, decisions...



Bawwww! *crys*



Carol said:


> Hope you could stop in NH on the way



Yay! =]



Dirty Dog said:


> OK, here's the solution...
> 
> I will volunteer to travel around as needed to confirm that you people are all real and not just sock puppets. I'll just need a small expense account...
> 
> It's a dirty job, but someone has to do it...



I, a sock puppet! Surely now, you jest. =]



Bob Hubbard said:


> I'm still working on getting out your way. Once I get that figured out, I'll work on planning a Canadian Tour.



Yay!


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## Cryozombie (Jul 12, 2010)

I'm not really me.  I am someone else.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 12, 2010)

Cryo, we got proof you is who you is.  lol!


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## teekin (Jul 13, 2010)

A Canadian Tour huh? Does that include a stop in a windy flat prairie city?  You can meet my poodle and I know all the really cheap 2Kool4Skool places to go.  Oh and I'd like to be a sock monkey, if that's OK with you. 

Lori


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## Bruno@MT (Jul 13, 2010)

Wouldn't a 1 dollar paypal payment suffice as well?


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## harlan (Jul 13, 2010)

I'm luvin' this thread. Kinda like a modern twist on the old koan, 'Who are you?'


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## Carol (Jul 13, 2010)

Bob Hubbard said:


> I'd be coordinating some paid gigs to cover expenses and am sure there's a school or 3 in that general direction that could help me cover travel expenses.



If its after Labor Day, you've got a place to stay if you need one


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 13, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> Wouldn't a 1 dollar paypal payment suffice as well?


No, because there's not much id verification a basic Paypal account requires.  It's also hard to tell for sure if you're who you say you are because you have a credit card, or if you're impersonating a parent, plus then we'd have to run charges.

We also looked at using an age-verification service a while back, but those tend to be more porn-centric, and it's not a connection we want.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 13, 2010)

Grendel308 said:


> A Canadian Tour huh? Does that include a stop in a windy flat prairie city?  You can meet my poodle and I know all the really cheap 2Kool4Skool places to go.  Oh and I'd like to be a sock monkey, if that's OK with you.
> 
> Lori


Depending on how things work out, yes possibly.


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## Hand Sword (Jul 13, 2010)

Hmmm... Mike Jones.....I guess I'm in trouble! At least if my past run ins with LEO's back in the day are any indication. "Yeah, and I'm John Smith! Don't give me that S__T! What's your REAL name!"


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 13, 2010)

Bob 

Here&#8217;s the thing. I have no problem with ID, if that is what you want it is your house and those be da-rules. However I have way too much training (and recent experience) behind me that scares the hell out of me when it comes to things like identity theft so the chances of me sanding you an ID are highly unlikely. However if I am in Buffalo (I am NOT going to Texas - to damn hot ) or you are in Albany I will happily show you my ID. If you want to do the research I will point you to the state directly with my real live name and you can give me a call or I will give you my office number (not my direct line ) and you can ask for me (first name Xue...last name Sheng :uhyeahand if memory serves you have my cell number anyway so you could call my office ask for me turn around and call my cell to see if I answer. But the chances of me sending any legitimate ID are highly unlikely, training has made me to paranoid and the ID theft I just got over with (they stole my wife&#8217;s ID) is enough for me.

I do not think you would do anything with it but the dumpster divers that may be out there or anyone else that might see it by chance might.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 13, 2010)

Cryozombie said:


> I'm not really me. I am someone else.


 
I always thought that about you&#8230;&#8230;hey..wait a minute&#8230;. you&#8217;re not me are you&#8230; that is of course assuming I am I.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 13, 2010)

Legitimate concerns, which is why I'm looking at alternate options.  As to dumpster divers, that's not a worry.  I send out more chads when I shred than Florida in 2000.


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## Blade96 (Jul 13, 2010)

harlan said:


> I'm luvin' this thread. Kinda like a modern twist on the old koan, 'Who are you?'



Ditto! This is becoming fun ! 



Bob Hubbard said:


> Legitimate concerns, which is why I'm looking at alternate options.  As to dumpster divers, that's not a worry.  I send out more chads when I shred than Florida in 2000.



hahahah!


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## Bob Hubbard (Sep 13, 2010)

Bumping this for more deliberation.   Twitter, Ebay, Paypal, Craigslist and Facebook are all rolling out some variant of "Verified Accounts".


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## Carol (Sep 13, 2010)

I'll be your huckleberry if you like, Bob.  You've met me in person a few times, I'm a Silver Star Web Designs customer, and you may still have a copy of my ID and my NDA kicking around from my time on staff.


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## Touch Of Death (Sep 14, 2010)

Bob Hubbard said:


> We're discussing putting in a way for members to verify their identity.
> 
> Right now, we don't require posting of peoples real names, but we do require them at registration. Occasionally an issue comes up where an identity is in question and we've asked for proof. This proof has always been a copy of some form of government issued ID, with all the info removed except for name, city/state and month/year of birth. We've asked that all other information be blacked out or cut out such as street addresses, zip codes, ID numbers, etc. but that the copy be notarized to confirm it's valid and not a mock up. People have been understandably concerned with this due to misunderstandings of how identity theft works.
> 
> ...


Now just how the heck am I going to get people to vouch for me?
Sean


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 14, 2010)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Bumping this for more deliberation. Twitter, Ebay, Paypal, Craigslist and Facebook are all rolling out some variant of "Verified Accounts".


 
And I do not use Twitter, Ebay, Paypal, Craigslist or Facebook...and most have been compromised already... Meaning lost peoples personal information

See post #49 for more information as to why I am agin it.


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