# MMA=Kickboxing and Wrestling?  aka the demise of BJJ



## Freestyler777 (May 16, 2007)

I don't want to offend anyone, but it seems to me like the BJJ/submission aspect of MMA has been phased out, and now you have American Wrestlers, well-versed in kickboxing, slugging it out in standup or ground 'n' pounding.  This is very different from what the Gracies developed in the early twentieth century.  However, MMA _is the original art of Gracie Jiu-jitsu, sport jiu-jitsu came later!_  So how do BJJ people think about the change of emphasis?

Me being a former wrestler, I am quite happy that the sport that I trained in has a reputation for being the best 'style'.  I always thought wrestling was a great sport. 

My question to you is, is BJJ dead?  Now that everyone knows how not to get traingled or armlocked, has MMA been reduced to wrestlers who punch and kick?

I'm not saying either art is bad, I just want to know other peoples' opinions.  Me, I only watch UFC DVDs when they come out at blockbuster.


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## Andrew Green (May 16, 2007)

Matches still end in submissions, and as long as it is allowed submissions will continue to happen.  BJJ I think will loose some influence, or evolve to fit the no-gi piece of MMA.  Which it seems most clubs do, some offer no-gi nights, others have dropped the gi altogether. 

MMA is young, and different aspects are still being put together.  

But even now, just looking at the UFC, there are still some really good Submission guys floating around. I think that will continue, there will be some really good strikers, some really good wrestlers and some really good submission guys.


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## Freestyler777 (May 16, 2007)

There will always be an avenue for everyone to win, since there are so many ways to win in MMA.  

But it seems to me that wrestling is better than bjj, in the majority of cases, as a background for MMA.  

Wrestlers are simply very physically gifted, and have great conditioning.  And anyone who does MMA now has to know how to kickbox too, but it seems like wrestling is the beginning.

I could be wrong.


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## Andrew Green (May 16, 2007)

Freestyler777 said:


> But it seems to me that wrestling is better than bjj, in the majority of cases, as a background for MMA.



I wouldn't say that, I think Wrestling is probably the basis of MMA, it controls the range.  Without wrestling you can't fight, but you also need striking or submissions, otherwise you get nicknamed "The blanket"



> Wrestlers are simply very physically gifted, and have great conditioning.



That's nothing to do with wrestling directly, just the intensity of the training and the sort of people that do it.  But I wouldn't say wrestling is any better or worse for that then other systems, just matters how you train them.



> And anyone who does MMA now has to know how to kickbox too, but it seems like wrestling is the beginning.




Yup, and they also know submissions, even if they never use them in fights


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## Freestyler777 (May 16, 2007)

:deadhorse


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## Andrew Green (May 16, 2007)

Freestyler777 said:


> :deadhorse



yup, submissions "die" every year or two, yet they never seem to go away 

That horse is dead :lol:


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## Tez3 (May 16, 2007)

In this country we don't have the tradition of wrestling that you do so BJJ is the main and probably only influence on MMA here. I can think of one fighter here who was an Olympic wrestler but not for the UK. I don't know anyone who actually trains or has trained in wrestling. We have regional wrestling ie Cumbrian, Cornish and Scottish, Catch as Catch Can etc but no one from these goes into MMA and interest is confined to small villages usually. 
There is a generation of MMA fighters now, in this country at least, who are training MMA as a whole not starting like a lot of us did from one TMA then learning another and another until we could do the whole. These new fighters aren't ground or standup based they do it all equally well, their training is balanced and focused on MMA which I think we see as a whole rather than wrestling (or BJJ) with kickboxing or vice versa.


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## Andrew Green (May 16, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> These new fighters aren't ground or standup based they do it all equally well, their training is balanced and focused on MMA which I think we see as a whole rather than wrestling (or BJJ) with kickboxing or vice versa.





And that right there is the future of MMA.  Guys training MMA from day one, crosstraining out, not in.


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## Freestyler777 (May 16, 2007)

Maybe the whole 'style' thing is outdated.  Everyone knows everything now, but individuals will always use their individual strengths against their opponnent's area of relative weakness.  Ex: a G n P guy takes down a striker, a striker refuses to go to the ground against a BJJ expert, a BJJ expert looking to feign a striking attack in order to get close enough to clinch, etc...

Renzo Gracie said, "The most important, and least practiced part of a fight,  is the takedown."

I always think it is a victory for the sport of wrestling when a big name wrestler wins, such as Randy Couture, Matt Lindland, Matt Hughes, etc...

But really MMA is one complete entity, maybe style is outdated.


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## zDom (May 16, 2007)

Freestyler777 said:


> I always think it is a victory for the sport of wrestling when a big name wrestler wins, such as Randy Couture, Matt Lindland, Matt Hughes, etc...



And I always think it is a victory for the sport of taekwondo when a kicker  any kicker, even with a sloppy roundhouse  knocks one of them out cold as they attempt a takedown


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## Tez3 (May 17, 2007)

Why TKD when a kick wins? Most of our MMA fighters also do Muay Thai, in fact my club is off to Thailand later this year to train at Fairtex who luckily sponsor us but a great many other fighters also go to Thailand as well as clubs locally. 
We have a fair few fighters who come from a Judo background. Judo has been in this country for over a century and is still very popular.There are a lot of TKD clubs here too but the UK has always had a wide variety of TMAs to chose from, the most popular I think is probably Shotokan and Wado Ryu.  
For a long time over here now we haven't talked about the separate parts of MMA, we talk about it and train it as a whole. More and more fighters are now very good MMA fighters full stop.
We are supposed to be having a UK TUF so perhaps you will get to see what I mean. The trails were supposed to be later this month but have been postponed. We haven't heard when they propose to have them, I do know however most of the fighters who plan to try out. Should be good if it comes off.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (May 17, 2007)

zDom said:


> And I always think it is a victory for the sport of taekwondo when a kicker  any kicker, even with a sloppy roundhouse  knocks one of them out cold as they attempt a takedown


 
Vote Tallied: Post of the Week winner right here


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (May 17, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> Why TKD when a kick wins? Most of our MMA fighters also do Muay Thai, in fact my club is off to Thailand later this year to train at Fairtex who luckily sponsor us but a great many other fighters also go to Thailand as well as clubs locally.
> We have a fair few fighters who come from a Judo background. Judo has been in this country for over a century and is still very popular.There are a lot of TKD clubs here too but the UK has always had a wide variety of TMAs to chose from, the most popular I think is probably Shotokan and Wado Ryu.
> For a long time over here now we haven't talked about the separate parts of MMA, we talk about it and train it as a whole. More and more fighters are now very good MMA fighters full stop.
> We are supposed to be having a UK TUF so perhaps you will get to see what I mean. The trails were supposed to be later this month but have been postponed. We haven't heard when they propose to have them, I do know however most of the fighters who plan to try out. Should be good if it comes off.


 
I think the case was being made that MMA fighters use everything and aren't "just wrestlers".  As soon as Couture, Lindland, Hughes, Coleman, Kerr, etc use. a kick or a sub they are not wrestling.  So if someone does a shoot, a takedown and ground control and can call it just wrestling than any kick can be considered muay thai, TKD, Karate, etc.  Personally I think Mark Coleman is an excellent Boxer....well Horizontal Boxing from the top that is


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## Tez3 (May 17, 2007)

I love the 'horizontal' boxing! The thing about this thread too is that it is talking about professional MMA, no one has mentioned it so I don't know if you also do amateur and semi pro MMA as we do? Amateur being no head shots whatsoever and semi pro being head shots standing only. This does change the dynamic of fights though they are no less skilful or good to watch.
I've never watched a wrestling match ( I know tv wrestling doesn't count though I do rather enjoy it but shhh about that please!) so I don't know what wrestling as opposed to grappling/BJJ/Judo is. Everyone I know who does MMA trains the BJJ way for groundwork.


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## Freestyler777 (May 17, 2007)

Kenpojujitsu man has some valid insights.  No one has won anything with 'just wrestling'.  Everybody does everything now in MMA.  Maybe it's a self fulfilling prophecy that wrestlers do well in MMA.  They're good athletes.  What if football players or hockey players or rugby players started training in MMA?  They'd also dominate, not because of their 'sport' but because of their 'athleticism'.  

Wrestling is essentially about takedowns and pins.  There's no striking, and in freestyle and Greco-Roman there is no submission holds.  Sambo is considered the 3rd international style, because it is practiced all over the world, not just Russia where it was invented.  Sambo is like wrestling and judo  combined, but more towards the wrestling side than the classical judo side.  However, in Sambo, armlocks and leglocks are allowed.  In Judo, only strangles and armlocks are allowed.  Leglocks are considered to dangerous, and they cause rheumatism later on in life.

Don't mean to blame anyone, but england has a rich tradition of wrestling, shame on you for not knowing more about the sport.  Just kidding


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## Tez3 (May 17, 2007)

Freestyler777 said:


> Kenpojujitsu man has some valid insights. No one has won anything with 'just wrestling'. Everybody does everything now in MMA. Maybe it's a self fulfilling prophecy that wrestlers do well in MMA. They're good athletes. What if football players or hockey players or rugby players started training in MMA? They'd also dominate, not because of their 'sport' but because of their 'athleticism'.
> 
> Wrestling is essentially about takedowns and pins. There's no striking, and in freestyle and Greco-Roman there is no submission holds. Sambo is considered the 3rd international style, because it is practiced all over the world, not just Russia where it was invented. Sambo is like wrestling and judo combined, but more towards the wrestling side than the classical judo side. However, in Sambo, armlocks and leglocks are allowed. In Judo, only strangles and armlocks are allowed. Leglocks are considered to dangerous, and they cause rheumatism later on in life.
> 
> Don't mean to blame anyone, but england has a rich tradition of wrestling, shame on you for not knowing more about the sport. Just kidding


 

Er excuse me! I did mention the regional wrestling :whip1: ! (I put that smilie in coz I luv it lol) It's just that the wrestlers keep it to themselves and don't do MMA! It's mostly in the small country places they do it. We don't have the thing of doing it in schools and colleges that you do, it's not a very high profile sport.

http://www.cornishwrestling.co.uk/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumberland_and_Westmorland_wrestling
http://www.wrestle.co.uk/

Btw over here we have been told to call Sambo - 'Sombo' to be politically correct! My instructor is old style Judo (amongst other things) and knows very wicked leg and ankle locks, he says Judo was vicious in the old days ( about 20-30 years ago)


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## tellner (May 17, 2007)

It seems that the people who do really well are good enough at everything and spectacularly good at something. Except for a few freaks of nature you don't find MMA guys who are championship level at boxing and at kicking and at takedowns and at submissions and at ground boxing. They're competent at all of them, at least competent enough not to get snookered by the specialists, and have some game at which they shine. 

BJJ was the first, and it dominated for a while. Then people learned how the Gracies and their students fought and how to counter it. Something else is the hot thing right now. Soon it will be something else. Even within the submission wrestling world there are fads and trends. Some day whatever the Gracies are doing will be more popular as they modify what they do to adapt to the changing conditions of the ring. As far as that goes, Gracie Ju Jitsu _is[/] a form of submission wrestling. So is Judo. So are a lot of JJJ styles._


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## Odin (May 17, 2007)

Freestyler777 said:


> I don't want to offend anyone, but it seems to me like the BJJ/submission aspect of MMA has been phased out, and now you have American Wrestlers, well-versed in kickboxing, slugging it out in standup or ground 'n' pounding. This is very different from what the Gracies developed in the early twentieth century. However, MMA _is the original art of Gracie Jiu-jitsu, sport jiu-jitsu came later!_ So how do BJJ people think about the change of emphasis?
> 
> Me being a former wrestler, I am quite happy that the sport that I trained in has a reputation for being the best 'style'. I always thought wrestling was a great sport.
> 
> ...


 
MMA runs in an almost full cycle a couple of years ago all the Pride and UFC champions were mainly grapplers now the strikers are coming through as MMA stand up is improving but i have all the faith in the world that come next year it will turn back around again.

BTW tell Big nog, BJ penn and Matt Serra that BJJ is dead.


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## Odin (May 17, 2007)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> Vote Tallied: Post of the Week winner right here


 
I personally thought that was a silly post.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (May 17, 2007)

Odin said:


> I personally thought that was a silly post.


 
To a large degree it was meant to point of something rather silly.  Good pick up.


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## DavidCC (May 17, 2007)

Freestyler777 said:


> Maybe the whole 'style' thing is outdated. Everyone knows everything now, but individuals will always use their individual strengths against their opponnent's area of relative weakness. Ex: a G n P guy takes down a striker, a striker refuses to go to the ground against a BJJ expert, a BJJ expert looking to feign a striking attack in order to get close enough to clinch, etc...
> 
> Renzo Gracie said, "The most important, and least practiced part of a fight, is the takedown."
> 
> ...


 

There are no styles in the world of pro boxing.  How could MMA be far behind as the skillset is honed and pruned more and more by the ruleset?


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## Tez3 (May 17, 2007)

DavidCC said:


> There are no styles in the world of pro boxing. *How could MMA be far behind as the skillset is honed and pruned more and more by the ruleset?*




Sorry I don't understand what that means.


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## DavidCC (May 17, 2007)

What I mean is over time you will see less emphasis on styles in professional MMA to the point where it is a style or system itself the same way "boxing" is now.  

Honed and pruned - as the pros concentrate more and more on success in the ring as the only criteria, techniques that aren't effective because of their nature or the rules will be dropped until there is a small set of techniques that everyone trains... just like boxing.


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## Tez3 (May 18, 2007)

DavidCC said:


> What I mean is over time you will see less emphasis on styles in professional MMA to the point where it is a style or system itself the same way "boxing" is now.
> 
> Honed and pruned - as the pros concentrate more and more on success in the ring as the only criteria, techniques that aren't effective because of their nature or the rules will be dropped until there is a small set of techniques that everyone trains... just like boxing.


 

We already see people training in MMA as opposed to different styles. Most us who train are constantly looking for moves that will work, I don't think it will end up like boxing, I think MMA fighters are more inventive than that. Having said that I already think the UFC is far blander than any other show I see.


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## zDom (May 18, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> We already see people training in MMA as opposed to different styles. Most us who train are constantly looking for moves that will work, I don't think it will end up like boxing, I think MMA fighters are more inventive than that. Having said that I already think the UFC is far blander than any other show I see.



More "inventive." Hehehe.

LOOK! I just found something that WORKS! Proven effective  I have video to prove it! It keeps me warm and can make raw food more tasty!

I think I'll call it Burny Stuff and start a new school to teach people how to make it!




I think Solomon said it best somewhere around Ecclesiastes 1:9-14

"There is nothng new under the sun."


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## Tez3 (May 18, 2007)

zDom said:


> More "inventive." Hehehe.
> 
> LOOK! I just found something that WORKS! Proven effective  I have video to prove it! It keeps me warm and can make raw food more tasty!
> 
> ...


 

Well I'm sure I have some moves that will be new to you (and I daresay vice versa)! do you train MMA? fight MMA? teach MMA? or do you just train sarcasm and cliches? 
Video? oh no sunbeam, a tap out from my opponent means it works. 
Nothing new under the sun? perhaps but then no one person knows it all, when there's nothing more to learn one might as well be dead.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (May 18, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> Well I'm sure I have some moves that will be new to you (and I daresay vice versa)! do you train MMA? fight MMA? teach MMA? or do you just train sarcasm and cliches?
> Video? oh no sunbeam, a tap out from my opponent means it works.
> Nothing new under the sun? perhaps but then no one person knows it all, when there's nothing more to learn one might as well be dead.


 
I think what he means is something like this:

If you can show me a "new" move I'll show you a book or video that predates the time you say you came up with the "new" move.  I agree.  Everytime someone has claimed a "new" move or movement I've been able to go through my video archive and book collection to show them documentation of that "new" move from WAAAAAAAYYYYYY back.  I think people will continue to rediscover what has already been discovered.  Nevermind the minor fact that not all discoveries are documented.  that increases the liekelihood of a "new" move being old.


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## Tez3 (May 18, 2007)

But of course if I don't know the move it's new to me isn't it? And MMA fighters are inventive enough to go looking for moves that are new to them rather than rely on certain well worn moves that everyone knows. They look for angles to the mundane and new ways to use the old. Everyone does things slightly differently, how many ways do you know to put a straight arm bar on? I learned a new way ( for me) the other week, likewise with ways of getting out of things. How many ways to do a RNC? there is always something new to learn even if it's not 'new under the sun'. We work at finding out things for ourselves what works, what doesn't for ourselves.


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## zDom (May 18, 2007)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> I think what he means is something like this:
> 
> If you can show me a "new" move I'll show you a book or video that predates the time you say you came up with the "new" move.  I agree.  Everytime someone has claimed a "new" move or movement I've been able to go through my video archive and book collection to show them documentation of that "new" move from WAAAAAAAYYYYYY back.  I think people will continue to rediscover what has already been discovered.  Nevermind the minor fact that not all discoveries are documented.  that increases the liekelihood of a "new" move being old.



You are reading me 5 by 5 (loud and clear), Kenpojujitsu3

Tez3, please excuse my ironic tone  I'm not trying to piss you off. For what its worth, you are among the MMA practitioners that I find reasonable and respect.

I just find it amusing when someone (anyone, not just a MMA practitioner) stumbles across something (anything, not just a martial art or training technique) that has been around for 40 to 4,000 years and decide they invented it and begin patting themselves on the back.


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## zDom (May 18, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> But of course if I don't know the move it's new to me isn't it? And MMA fighters are inventive enough to go looking for moves that are new to them rather than rely on certain well worn moves that everyone knows. They look for angles to the mundane and new ways to use the old. Everyone does things slightly differently, how many ways do you know to put a straight arm bar on? I learned a new way ( for me) the other week, likewise with ways of getting out of things. How many ways to do a RNC? there is always something new to learn even if it's not 'new under the sun'. We work at finding out things for ourselves what works, what doesn't for ourselves.



At the risk of being called back on the carpet for using cliches, I just don't see the need to go reinventing the wheel when, with a little research, you can find all sorts of wheels for all sorts of uses.

Saves time and effort &#8212; time and effort that can be used to build those wheels instead of reinventing them.

I agree there is plenty to learn &#8212; more than we have time to learn. So why not use that knowledge of the past so you have more time to dedicate to figuring out what works for ourselves and what doesn't?

Maybe as a writer I am just a little more sensitive to the whole concept of plagarism &#8212; taking credit for something that has already been done before.


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## Andrew Green (May 18, 2007)

zDom said:


> I just find it amusing when someone (anyone, not just a MMA practitioner) stumbles across something (anything, not just a martial art or training technique) that has been around for 40 to 4,000 years and decide they invented it and begin patting themselves on the back.




I'll admit that every technique or strategy I have ever "invented" I have latter discovered someone else also invented it, usually a few people.  But that doesn't change the process, which is what this is all about anyways.

When someone invents a technique that works well for them they should be proud of themselves.  That takes creativity and understanding of what is going on, it doesn't matter that its been done before, they still invented it.

And that "Eureka" moment when suddenly something clicks and you pull a move out of no where that works is something everyone should experience.


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## Tez3 (May 18, 2007)

If my post is read correctly you will find I said MMA fighters are more inventive than being content to use the same moves over and over again as was implied in the post I was answering. I didn't claim that they invented moves that have been around for years. What they do is actively seek out moves they can work with.


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## zDom (May 18, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> If my post is read correctly you will find I said MMA fighters are more inventive than being content to use the same moves over and over again as was implied in the post I was answering. I didn't claim that they invented moves that have been around for years. What they do is actively seek out moves they can work with.



And that is an attitude I can respect.

What I have been getting from OTHER MMA enthusiasts is quite the opposite.

I suggested, for example, that the ridgehand technique might be something they might find very useful "in the ring."

The response was, "Well, it doesn't work or they would already be using it by now ..."

And to answer an early question:



Tez3 said:


> do you train MMA? fight MMA? teach MMA? or do you just train sarcasm and cliches?



Depends on how strict of a definition. In my opinion, hapkido is one of  if not THE first  fighting system to embrace the idea of mixing martial art systems.

So, to answer the question: YES I train mixed martial arts, I have successfully defending myself from real attacks using a mixture of martial arts and yes I teach, when asked to do so by my instructor.

The sarcasm and cliches come naturally  no training needed


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## LegLockGuy (May 18, 2007)

Gonzaga > Couture

So NO, BJJ is not dead.


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## Tez3 (May 18, 2007)

I'm not in the least pissed off, I'm jyst very armentative lol! I like sarcasm, I'm British!
I wish you guys had DVD players that worked with our DVD's I'd send you all DVDs of British fight nights to show you what I mean!


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## zDom (May 19, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> I'm not in the least pissed off, I'm jyst very armentative lol! I like sarcasm, I'm British!
> I wish you guys had DVD players that worked with our DVD's I'd send you all DVDs of British fight nights to show you what I mean!



I would love to see them 

Our DVDs aren't compatible?? Really?


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (May 19, 2007)

zDom said:


> I would love to see them
> 
> Our DVDs aren't compatible?? Really?


 
Different regional coding so the DVD's wouldn't play...unless you know how to break the region coding...which I do...there are several softwares available to do this.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (May 19, 2007)

Andrew Green said:


> I'll admit that every technique or strategy I have ever "invented" I have latter discovered someone else also invented it, usually a few people. But that doesn't change the process, which is what this is all about anyways.
> 
> When someone invents a technique that works well for them they should be proud of themselves. That takes creativity and understanding of what is going on, it doesn't matter that its been done before, they still invented it.
> 
> And that "Eureka" moment when suddenly something clicks and you pull a move out of no where that works is something everyone should experience.


 
It's really just semantics but I am strictly oppossed to people claiming they invented something that has already been invented.  However, by the strict dictionary definition yes they invented it....just did not invent it first. Good post.


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## Shogun (May 20, 2007)

wow. if some people's idea of BJJ is just submissions....find a new school.

I used to dwell on the idea of "new" a little less than 3 years ago, but I've gotten to the point to where "If I haven't seen it, its new to me".


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