# Wu Shen Pai Kenpo in Vegas?



## KenpoNovice (Nov 24, 2004)

Hello everyone!

I live in Las Vegas, Nevada (recent transplant) and was searching for a Kenpo Karate school near my house. I found one school and went to watch a class. The instructor after the class told me he had been in town for several years and in our discussion he seemed OK. He told me he had his own Kenpo style called "Wu Shen Pai (spelling?)?" He explained how he created his own style, but his school still has EPAK techniques being done (at least I recognized the Yellow thru Purple belt material).

My question is, has anyone every heard of this type of Kenpo? If so, what's the difference between this and EPAK? Has anyone every heard of this instructor? --- his name is Bob Jones at East West Kenpo Karate.

Any and all information would be very helpful since I'm looking to start training again as soon as possible, but I want to know what I'd be getting involved with first before I make any commitments.

Thanks for your input,

KenpoNovice (aka Terry)


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## rmcrobertson (Nov 24, 2004)

I should note first of all that Mr. Jones separated himself from my own primary instructor, Larry Tatum, recently. 

Mr. Jones teaches what he has learned in American kenpo, and from Mr.  Tatum, with some admixture of a kung fu style he had previously studied, and other bits of his own quite recent invention. 

I have worked out with Mr. Jones, I have seen him teach, and I cannot recommend his school. I would be wary of Mr. Jones' "innovations," as well as his ideas about authority and teaching.

However, I am given to understand, on reliable authority, that there are very good children's classes at this school, run by Mrs. Jones.

As a general comment, it is extremely rare to find an instructor who is genuinely qualified to devise, and to teach, his own style of martial arts. There simply aren't very many Ed Parkers and Bruce Lees out there, and there never were.


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## azkenpo1 (Nov 25, 2004)

Terry,

Mr. John Herman has a Kenpo School located near Sam's Town in Las Vegas.  Mr. Herman is a high ranking Black Belt in the AKKI under Mr. Paul Mills.  Mr. Herman is very proficient and has a great group of students to work out with.  You can reference the AKKI website for further details at AKKI.com

Sincerely,

Darin


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## Franc0 (Nov 25, 2004)

I fully concur with both replies. I have met Mr. Jones and seen him move, and I know and have trained with John Herman personally. I would definitely suggest you go with Mr. Hermans' Nevada Kenpo Karate.


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## KenpoNovice (Nov 25, 2004)

Robert/Darrin/Masterfinger,

Thank you for your input! I now know to stay away from the school.

When I went there, I was so excited because the school is less than 2 miles from my house (talk about convenient). Unfortunately, as enthusiastic as I was, I couldn't get over the feeling that something wasn't quite right about the guy. 

The first thing that bothered me was my friend went to check out his school for me before I moved to Vegas. My friend is not a "Kenpo" guy, but has a Black Belt in Japanese Karate. He went 4 months ago to visit the place and Mr. Jones was wearing a 5th-degree Black Belt. I thought to myself, "Great, the guy's a high-ranking practitioner!" When I go to visit just recently, Mr. Jones is now wearing a 7th-degree Black Belt!?! I thought, WTF?

Robert, I knew the guy used to be with Tatum, only because he talked about him for over 10 minutes, telling me he learned everything he needed and didn't want to deal with "So. Cal. Politics." I didn't think about it much at the time, but I was wary of the things he said about his association with Tatum. I don't think you gain from bashing other people, especially a former instructor.

Anyway, thanks for the information guys. I'm probably strange in the fact that I try to research everything I can before I make a major decision/committment to something or someone. I definately know what to do now.

Grateful for information,

KenpoNovice (aka Terry)


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## MJS (Nov 25, 2004)

KenpoNovice said:
			
		

> Anyway, thanks for the information guys. I'm probably strange in the fact that I try to research everything I can before I make a major decision/committment to something or someone. I definately know what to do now.



I wouldn't say that you're strange.  You're doing research and covering your bases.  Better to do that than spend your $ on someone not worth giving it to.

Mike


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## azkenpo1 (Nov 26, 2004)

Terry,

I was not so much telling you to stay away from Bob Jones' school, rather I was giving you positive feedback regarding John Herman's school.  I don't know Bob Jones personally and I cannot comment on his integrity or lack thereof.  I feel John Herman is a very proficient martial artist and one would be hard pressed to find better Kenpo instruction in your area.  I know that Mr. Mills has another student by the name of Julio Sabates in the Las Vegas area, Julio is awesome, however he does not have a school and teaches out of his home.  Check with the AKKI website for details on both instructors.

Darin


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## KenpoNovice (Nov 26, 2004)

Darin,

No problem, I completely understand. I'm happy for your advice and trying to help me figure out where to train!

My comment and decision to stay away from Bob Jones' school is not based on what you posted. I guess I came to that conclusion from my "gut" feeling, combined with the other posts I read from Robert and Masterfinger. Unfortunately, the more I've looked around for information on his school, the more bad news I come across.

Mike, thanks for the complement. I'm trying not to be too anal in my research, but I'd rather find out now instead of having a problem later and being stuck in a multi-year contract paying $200 a month!!!

I've been lurking (viewing and not posting) on these boards for awhile and the advice I've seen has been excellent. I guess that's why I made my original post --- looking for help. Thanks again guys for your advice.

Very appreciative,

Terry
KenpoNovice


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## getgoin (Nov 27, 2004)

Kenponovice,

I sent you a PM. What I have to share is best kept off the forum.


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## KenpoTess (Nov 28, 2004)

Mod Note-

Thread moved from EPAK to Kenpo/Kempo General  Forum.

~Tess
-MT S. MOD-


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## kenpo3631 (Nov 28, 2004)

> I should note first of all that Mr. Jones separated himself from my own primary instructor, Larry Tatum, recently



For some reason I think this statement set's the tone for the rest of your previous post.



> Mr. Jones teaches what he has learned in American kenpo, and from Mr. Tatum, with some admixture of a kung fu style he had previously studied, and other bits of his own quite recent invention. *I have worked out with Mr. Jones, I have seen him teach, and I cannot recommend his school. I would be wary of Mr. Jones' "innovations," as well as his ideas about authority and teaching.*



This statement sounds so familiar when a student of a "Master" branches off without the approval of the "Master".




> As a general comment, it is extremely rare to find an instructor who is genuinely qualified to devise, and to teach, his own style of martial arts. There simply aren't very many Ed Parkers and Bruce Lees out there, and there never were.



Couldn't the same have been said about the two 40 or 50 years ago when they broke from their original instructors to teach their "own" systems?


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## rmcrobertson (Nov 28, 2004)

Dear "3631:"

First, my opening statement was intended to "set the tone," for what followed. Indeed, it was meant to warn readers of my possible biases, a common opening courtesy and warning in many sorts of review writing.

Certainly, you are perfectly entitled to see this in whatever fashion you choose. I simply don't see how it is that everybody who strikes out on their own is Bruce Lee.

Finding this a pretty tricksy topic--I can think of at least three reasons, offhand, that I perhaps shouldn't have written anything at all--I don't think I'll say much more than that I stand behind what I wrote, which was grounded in direct experience and extended observation. 

It does strike me that there's an ongoing and probably-unsolvable problem of honest evaluation in the martial arts--yes, all of them--all the way from teaching through tournament judging through this sort of issue.

I won't be posting on this thread again, I should add. Thank you for your argument.


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## Les (Nov 29, 2004)

I can endorse what azkenpo 1 says about John Herman.

I too have seen him teach, and he is a first class instructor with good backgroung knowledge.

I recommend you pay him a visit at 

Nevada Kenpo Karate Studio
3310 South Nellis Blvd. #19
Las Vegas, Nevada 89121
(702) 434-7274


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## Les (Nov 29, 2004)

Terry,

You might want to look at this thread as well

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19447

Les


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## Rick Wade (Nov 29, 2004)

Ok I can't take it anymore.  
     I didn't want to jump on the band wagon but here goes.  I went to the mainland on Vacation and went to several Kenpo schools and had a great time.  I went to Schools in San Diego and Las Vegas.  I called East West Kenpo and told them I was in town and asked If I could attend a class they were nice and invited me to the class.  The first thing that happened was Mr. Jones said the way I was doing some techniques were wrong.  Wrong what! Strike one.  When I tried to explain that I had learned the techniques according to the IKKA and was now I was working inside the UKF curriculum and Mr. Pick had a fortified stance and twelve points.  He proceeded to tell me that all techniques should be done from that attention stance to help build speed. Anyway after talking to him for about 30 minutes he started bashing several Prominent Kenpo Instructors and it just ticked me off so bad that I packed my bag and left early.  It really put a damper on the whole trip (Kenpo wise).  I visited some really great schools that did techniques that were similar to the IKKA.  When I questioned them on why I wasnt disrespectful I would ask them why they did it that way (sometime they would enlighten me and sometimes they wouldnt) and then I would show them the way I did it.  One last note about Mr. Jones when I walked into his studio it was like I was being recruited for our small Kenpo contingent on Oahu.  So I told him that I was not abandoning my instructor and the UKF to open a school for him in Hawaii.  The whole experience was not fun.  As for Mr. Jones and his Wu Shen Pai Kenpo good luck it just wasnt a right fit for me.

V/R

Rick


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## Goldendragon7 (Dec 4, 2004)

Rick Wade said:
			
		

> One last note about Mr. Jones and his Wu Shen Pai Kenpo ~ good luck ~! it just wasnt a right fit for me.
> Rick


 Amen ~


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## Goldendragon7 (Dec 4, 2004)

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> First, my opening statement was intended to "set the tone," for what followed. Indeed, it was meant to warn readers, a common courtesy.


  I think he was just trying to say the following.............

*1ST BLACK BELT PLEDGE *

*I HOLD THAT MY TIME AND MY SKILL ARE THE ASSETS TO MY PROFESSION, ASSETS WHICH GROW IN VALUE AS I PROGRESS IN KENPO, UNTIL AS A THIRD DEGREE BLACK BELT I STAND AS A FULLY QUALIFIED INSTRUCTOR. IT SHALL ALSO BE MY  RESPONSIBILITY TO PROTECT ANY INDIVIDUALS WHO WOULD *_*T**RY TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF PERSONAL WEAKNESSES TO DIVEST THE GULLIBLE INTO UNPROFITABLE PATHS*_*. TO PRESERVE THE SACRED THINGS, FAMILY, GOD, AND COUNTRY, I PLEDGE MY ALL. *

     :asian:


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## getgoin (Dec 4, 2004)

Les said:
			
		

> he is a first class instructor with good backgroung knowledge.


Richard Black might disagree.


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Dec 5, 2004)

Well it seems Mr. Bob now has the BURDEN of wearing a 7th degree BB given to him by who knows, some judo guy.   If you do a little research you'll find that his claims are spurious, wished I'd have done some homework a little sooner LOL.  All this within a few months of putting on a legit 5th.   


http://www.eastwestkenpokarate.com/masterTheArt.html

DarK LorD


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## Goldendragon7 (Dec 5, 2004)

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> Well it seems Mr. Bob is now wearing a 7th degree BB!, you'll find that his claims are spurious, wished I'd have done some homework a little sooner LOL.
> DarK LorD


 I know you're gonna hate this but..... "I told ya"......... :lol:


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## getgoin (Dec 5, 2004)

*"He holds a Ph.D. in Public Policy and Politics and is working on a Ph.D. in Political Science."*

That says it all, it's all politics.


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## KenpoNovice (Dec 5, 2004)

_*"He holds a Ph.D. in Public Policy and Politics and is working on a Ph.D. in Political Science."
*
That says it all, it's all politics._


Actually, he doesn't hold a Ph'd.  For years he claimed he had a Ph'd from NAU in Arizona.  In turns out they kicked him out of the school when he had been a doctoral candidate for years and wouldn't do any work.

The funny thing is, being a doctoral candidate is impressive and something to be proud of.  But when you force everyone to call you "Dr.", advetise as a Ph'd, and brag about your title over and over when you actually never received your diploma, that's sad.

Well actually, I'm mistaken.  He does have a ph'd from some type of *correspondance course* from a school in the U.K.  For $500, any of us can have ph'd's as well.  _*Seriously, you pay $500 and you get the degree and title in a couple of weeks.*_

This info. I received from several of his students, meeting them outside his school in a social setting.

KenpoNovice


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## azkenpo1 (Dec 5, 2004)

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> I know you're gonna hate this but..... "I told ya"......... :lol:




Mr C., 

Didn't he receive his First from Lois Tomson?  His website said he was promoted by Mr. Parker?  Perhaps you could clarify this for all.

Thanks,

Darin


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## Goldendragon7 (Dec 5, 2004)

azkenpo1 said:
			
		

> Mr C.,
> Didn't he receive his First from Lois Tomson? His website said he was promoted by Mr. Parker? Perhaps you could clarify this for all.
> Thanks, Darin


 AZK1......... No he didn't ever receive a 1st Degree Certificate from anyone. He was allowed to wear a 1st Degree Black Belt (when he studied with me, until he left to study with Bruce & Lois Tomson). Once with Bruce & Lois he eventually tested in front of Mr. Parker for his 2nd which was a provisional as I understand from Bruce but a few months later (for whatever reason) Bruce personally went in and took it back {so he was never promoted personally by Mr. Parker except to 2nd which was taken back by his instructors}. This caused quite a commotion! He then moved on to the AKKI group which he gained a 3rd Degree from Paul Mills then on to the Speakman group under John Sepulveda who promoted him to 4th then off again to Tatums group where he was raised to 5th after only a few weeks. Now a little over a year later he has gained a 6th from somewhere and now sports a 7th Degree after a couple of months. 

 I don't know about anyone else, but I got to get to Vegas to drink the water or somethin'!

   :idunno:


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## TChase (Dec 6, 2004)

I just happened to find this old post by Mr. Jones on the UKF forum.  I find it very ironic that Mr. Jones posted this message about another so called, self promoted "master" and now it seems he is following in his footsteps.




> Mr. Farnsworth was promoted to 1st Degree and 2nd Degree Black Belt by Mr. Cliff McKinney. Later when Mr. M retired, Mr. Farnsworth was inducted into the IKKA as a 2nd Degree Black by Senior Grand Master Edmund K. Parker. This occurred in 1986. He was subsequently promoted by SGM Parker to 3rd Degree Black Belt (according to the IKKA newsletter) in 1989. He was subsequently stripped of that rank by SGM Parker and expelled from the IKKA. This occurred in 1990 prior to SGM Parker's death. He then moved to Master Larry Tatum and received his 4th Degree Black Belt in the LTKKA. This is, as far as I know, his last earned rank in Kenpo. Within weeks, he had tested for a 4th in Tracy's kenpo. He received a 5th Degree BB from John Pellegrini's Combat Hapkido Assoc. His 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th degrees were self promotions all occuring within the span of 4 years. His 10th was awarded by the Society of Soke and subsequently revoked. His white dragon system is not held in wide repute and he is not considered legit by the Kenpo community as a whole.
> I disagree strongly with those who say that credentials do not matter. They do matter as much as a law degree, a medical degree, or a bachelor's degree. Would anyone REALLY consider going to a lawyer that did not possess his law degree, a doctor who never went to medical school long enough to attain the credential, or send their child to grade school where the teachers have not obtained their bachelor's degree in education. That said, the degree is only as good as the school and association giving it out. It is also true that you are only as good as your last degree. (in the academic world)
> In the world of Martial Arts, you can judge your instructor by the standards of his character, his integrity, and the integrity of those he promotes. Of course, don't forget his skills. Look at his classes. Look at his students. Judge their skill. Is there truly a skill differential between a Yellow Belt and a Green Belt? If not, why not? The more widely established your instructor is, the more widely established the ranks you earn will be. GO to open tournaments to see what others look like. Ask sincere questions. Look to your teacher's teachers. Ask Mr. Farnsworth if Master Tatum and Master Pellegrini support his teachings! if not, why not? I for one, am unimpressed by the White Dragon system. I have been the recipient of more than one video tape on the system thrown on my desk as the result of disgruntled and unhappy students who have had reason to question the integrity and ability behind their ranks. I find that Mr. F is not without talent. It is a pity that he has chosen other than legitimate means to pursue it! Just one man's opinion!


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## TChase (Dec 6, 2004)

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> AZK1......... No he didn't ever receive a 1st Degree Certificate from anyone. He was allowed to wear a 1st Degree Black Belt (when he studied with me, until he left to study with Bruce & Lois Tomson). Once with Bruce & Lois he eventually tested in front of Mr. Parker for his 2nd which was a provisional as I understand from Bruce but a few months later (for whatever reason) Bruce personally went in and took it back {so he was never promoted personally by Mr. Parker except to 2nd which was taken back by his instructors}. This caused quite a commotion! He then moved on to the AKKI group which he gained a 3rd Degree from Paul Mills then on to the Speakman group under John Sepulveda who promoted him to 4th then off again to Tatums group where he was raised to 5th after only a few weeks. Now a little over a year later he has gained a 6th from somewhere and now sports a 7th Degree after a couple of months.
> 
> I don't know about anyone else, but I got to get to Vegas to drink the water or somethin'!
> 
> :idunno:


 
I never understood how joining a new organization entitles you to an automatic promotion.  I would think it should be the other way around, not gaining any rank or even have your rank recognized until you prove to be a respectable and trustworthy member.  That's how it is in the UKF anyway.


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Dec 6, 2004)

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> AZK1......... No he didn't ever receive a 1st Degree Certificate from anyone. He was allowed to wear a 1st Degree Black Belt (when he studied with me, until he left to study with Bruce & Lois Tomson). Once with Bruce & Lois he eventually tested in front of Mr. Parker for his 2nd which was a provisional as I understand from Bruce but a few months later (for whatever reason) Bruce personally went in and took it back {so he was never promoted personally by Mr. Parker except to 2nd which was taken back by his instructors}. This caused quite a commotion! He then moved on to the AKKI group which he gained a 3rd Degree from Paul Mills then on to the Speakman group under John Sepulveda who promoted him to 4th then off again to Tatums group where he was raised to 5th after only a few weeks. Now a little over a year later he has gained a 6th from somewhere and now sports a 7th Degree after a couple of months.
> 
> I don't know about anyone else, but I got to get to Vegas to drink the water or somethin'!
> 
> :idunno:


 

No Dennis, he was not promoted to 5th within a few weeks of joining the LTKKA, it was over a year.

DarK LorD


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Dec 6, 2004)

TChase said:
			
		

> I just happened to find this old post by Mr. Jones on the UKF forum. I find it very ironic that Mr. Jones posted this message about another so called, self promoted "master" and now it seems he is following in his footsteps.


Thank you for making that comparison, I made the same LOL.

DarK LorD


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## Goldendragon7 (Dec 6, 2004)

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> No Dennis, he was not promoted to 5th within a few weeks of joining the LTKKA, it was over a year.
> DarK LorD


 Well, ok, if you say so.... I'd rather agree (right or wrong then go back and rehash more of this guy, lol) so I stand corrected.


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## jaybacca72 (Dec 6, 2004)

hey dennis a whole year with LT,man o man!!


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## getgoin (Dec 9, 2004)

getgoin said:
			
		

> Richard Black might disagree.


I just noticed I got some negative points for saying that, this is what the person has to say.

*"You have to be the most ill informed argumentative bastard I have ever seen. Your comments on just about everything are nothing but negative. Therefore you have earned some negative points....Congrats!"*

Let me start by saying that I don't post on everything, if I did I would have a heck of alot more post than 60. Secondly I'm not negative, I have an opinion like everyone here. It must not be inline with your opinion, thats why I'm negative.

As far as being ill informed I would disagree there too. I lived in Las Vegas for 28 years, I just moved to WA a couple of months ago. I did Kenpo and other arts there for 15 years in Las Vegas. I have been to every school in the valley to watch classes and talk to the instructors, generally shoping them. So now that I have gotten some negative points for this I might as well share a story. 


The story goes like this: One day a Kenpo instructor decided to flyer another schools parking lot. Well the female instructor of the competeing school knew a student of the kenpo instructor and asked if the student would talk to the kenpo instructor and ask him not to flyer her parking lot anymore. Well the kenpo instructor got enraged at this. The kenpo instructor went to the womans school and confronted her in front of her class in a very hostile manner about speaking to his students and him being able to do what he likes. As the kenpo instructor left, feeling proud and boastful, the female instructor made a call to the owner of the school, to inform him of what just transpired in his school. The owner of the school made a bee line for the kenpo instructor with a couple of his black belts in tow. The school owner arrived at the kenpo instructors school and preceeded to pound the kenpo instructor into the ground.

I always loved that story.


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## kenpowonderer (Dec 9, 2004)

I must admit that I recognized the story posted about the competing schools, the flyering of the parking lot, and the fight that unfolded.  It had been told to me numerous times over my training to make me sure of what not to do.  But schools will compete, that is a given in almost any sport to my knowledge.


I have spent the past 16 years in American Kenpo, and value it's lessons greatly.  Another variation has been made.


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## Franc0 (Dec 9, 2004)

Getgoins version of that story is complete BS. No one got pounded, as a matter of fact, the guys who who went to the school ended up running away as soon they saw the knife that got pulled when the instructor saw that he was outnumbered. Getgoin also forgot to mention that the school instructor was there alone with his wife and kids and when the attack ocurred, with one of the invaders cornering the wife and kids into the office while the others went for the instructor, real tough guys. Though the part about the flyers and such are true, and maybe it shouldnt have happened, but the rest of his version is crap.


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## KenpoNovice (Dec 10, 2004)

Masterfinger is correct.  I heard the story from various USSD guys as well as a Herman guy.  There was no beat down.  A group of black belts went to his school and it went down the way Masterfinger said it did.

My question:  If the instructor for USSD was such a bad guy, why didn't he go by himself or arrange a challenge fight?  10-15 schools with mediocre guys jump on one guy?  Hmmmmmmmmmmm.  

Would they have done that to a MMA/Cage fighting/BJJ academy in town?  I'm sure I can arrange 15 guys there to accomodate USSD.

Terry


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## kenpomike890 (Dec 10, 2004)

I also want to clarify that although this was posted under the Wu Shen Pai Kenpo thread, this did not occur at East West Kenpo in las Vegas. This was between 2 other schools in the valley.


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## kenpomike890 (Dec 11, 2004)

Rick's post is false, as I was on the mat and did not witness anything that he claims.


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## Nick Ellis (Dec 11, 2004)

I am going to make this Brutally Clear on the Events that took place the night Rick English visited our school. I actually find it funny on the course of events he said that took place since I was witnessed to the entire event. I personally was on the mats with this man. and was asked by Professor Jones to Uke for him. At no time did Professor Jones attempt to recruit Mr English. In fact it was Mr English who intiatiated that conversation. it seemed he was so impressed with us that he wanted to come here periodically for lessons. Professor told him if he wanted to train with us that He would have to have Mike Picks Permission.
and if he wanted to join the association he must severe ties with his current Instructor. that is clear protocol in any traditional system. I would also like to dispute Mr English's comments on how techniques are done. when Mr Engish displayed Delayed sword Fiveswords and sword and Hammer. according to Our Standards. the techniques were poorly executed. Yellow Belts working on orange in our school are expected to have a better grasp of the cirriculm than what was displayed by Mr English. Professor Jones did not Say that the IKKA is moving the ciriculum incorrectly he stated that is not the way Grand Master Ed Parker moved the techniques. Professor and another Black Belt in our school then proceeded to demonstrate correctly the proper sequencing of techniques the concepts and principles of motion that were outlined by Mr Parker. I was personally hit twice by 5 swords with extention sword and hammer and delayed sword. if I recall the words that came out of Mr English mouth were WOW! 
to final rebuttal of his posting the reason why he left so quickly is not because he was discouraged or pressured by us. but because his significant other. was pressuring him to leave.
Professor Showed Hospitality by letting him come and work out with us and he had the audacity to post these accusations on this forum.. and to say that he does nothing more than hop from instructor to instructor. is innacurate He might do well to consult the training records of many other instructors in American Kenpo moving from instructor to instructor is not unusual in this system it is actually quite normal.

Nick Ellis
Proud Student and Member of the IKKS
of East West Kenpo Karate Studios
Las Vegas NV.


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## Nick Ellis (Dec 13, 2004)

KenpoNovice said:
			
		

> _*"He holds a Ph.D. in Public Policy and Politics and is working on a Ph.D. in Political Science."
> *
> That says it all, it's all politics._
> 
> ...


 Re: Wu Shen Pai Kenpo in Vegas? 

"He holds a Ph.D. in Public Policy and Politics and is working on a Ph.D. in Political Science."

That says it all, it's all politics.


Actually, he doesn't hold a Ph'd. For years he claimed he had a Ph'd from NAU in Arizona. In turns out they kicked him out of the school when he had been a doctoral candidate for years and wouldn't do any work.

That is utterly false!  In fact,  I have two Bachelor of Arts Degrees (History / International Relations) Both are awarded Summa Cum Laude  With Highest Honors. I also graduted from the Northern Arizona University Honors Program.  So With Honors appears on my diploma.  Second, I have a Masters Degree in Political science from Northern Arizona University.  (By the way  With Distinction) To date, I have not been expelled, removed or otherwise made ineligible for advanced work at my alma mater.   





The funny thing is, being a doctoral candidate is impressive and something to be proud of. But when you force everyone to call you "Dr.", advetise as a Ph'd, and brag about your title over and over when you actually never received your diploma, that's sad.

I do not nor have I ever forced anyone to call me Doctor.  In fact, I do somewhat loath the title.  That said,  I have worked more years than you can imagine to EARN it.  I have received a Doctoral Diploma.  It is through a University in the UK.  Why there? Well because I fancied going to Academics sometime and in that world it is a bad thing to finish ALL degrees in one place.  Soooooo,  I moved on..I remain interested in Political science although My UK Degree in PS is Public Policy.  I am still doing postdoctoral work leading to another degree from my alma mater.  Oh, I may also be working toward an Ed.D. Degree soon.  Does that meet with you approval?  If you want to consult Political Science and justification for actions at its very best, you can observe the slander and character assassination that is allowed on this Forum.  Oh,  you are participating in it.  Sorry, I forgot.  By the way, before you libel someone, sight unseenat least have the good graces to meet them and ask them for the facts.    





Well actually, I'm mistaken. He does have a ph'd from some type of correspondance course from a school in the U.K. For $500, any of us can have ph'd's as well. Seriously, you pay $500 and you get the degree and title in a couple of weeks.



See my denial above.  



This info. I received from several of his students, meeting them outside his school in a social setting.



If you got that from any student at my school, then they were obviously working off a twisted agenda of their own, probably from being expelled.





Respectuflly



Professor Robert L. Jones, Ph.D.


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## rmcrobertson (Dec 13, 2004)

Without reflecting specifically upon the discussion here, a couple of suggestions for those who are relative novices to the martial arts and to academia.

1. Generally speaking, the folks who are honest and upfront about their stake in an issue are the most trustworthy. That is, it's probably best to go with the folks who tell you honestly what their affiliations are, and what their investment is, before they go on to make a lot of claims. That way, you can track their biases.

2. In academics, you want to watch out for the folks who are always putting, "PhD," on their name tags. Academics all do it to some extent--but my personal experience has been that the folks who prefer to be called something like, "Ed," or, "Barbara," or by their professional title alone for formal occasions, are the very best as well as the ones with the most-impressive credentials and achievements.

3. In martial arts, beware of the folks with belts in 93 different arts. It simply takes too long to, "master," (whatever that means) even one art--and when they tell you that they've figured out the short cuts, you really want to be prepared to duck. There aren't any. In fact, they should be talking about YOUR training, not theirs.

4. Mostly, well-trained academics--like well-trained martial artists--should show certain moves without having to think about it. For example, a solid academic should be writing solidly in terms of basics, just as a solid martial artist should exhibit solid stances, punches, blocks, kicks, etc.

5. There're a lot of politics in martial arts. (Gosh, really?) The "modern," arts have them; the traditional ones do too...check out why the Shaolin Monastery got burned down twice, or the feud between jiu-jitsu and judo in Japan. As a relative novice, you won't be able to sort through them--and it's not a good sign that you're asked to. After all, shouldn't you be training?

6. In martial arts as in academia, excessive rituals and excessive, "discipline," are warning signs. What constitutes, 'excessive?' Well, bowing up to the mat's probably good; not walking on the mat in shoes is probably good; saluting is probably good--kowtowing is probably not. The formalism in martial arts protects its students, that's for sure--but equally surely, this isn't 17th-century Japan and we're not samurai. Go with your gut about it; if you have to consider it at all (again, you should be training, not worrying about this stuff overmuch), it's probably a bad sign. But try to steer between opposing mistakes: one one extreme, the American nonsense about, "I'm an American and I do modern arts and I ain't bowing to nobody and anyway I read Bruce Lee on the tired mess of martial arts and I read Bullshido.com and they're right;" on the other extreme, the, "I saw an episode of 'Kung Fu,' and I make my students wait in the rain clutching a bowl of rice," losers.

7. A good teacher in the martial arts should--with rare exceptions--exhibit: a) an easily-demonstrable competence; b) a lot of patience/respect when it comes to students; c) a clear history; d) a sense of humor about the essential silliness of the arts. They should NOT make claims that are patently ridiculous (I'll train you in six months, I'll teach the Secret Ninja Death Touch, only I learned these secrets...). They should not suddenly have jumped way up in rank. And excessive, harped-upon secrecy is bad.

8. Breakups in the arts are as common as divorces in ALL the arts. They may or may not mean anything about the competence and character of the people involved. As with academia, you should--in the event that you even have to deal with any of this nonsense--probably trust a) your gut, b) the people who are the most open about the different sides of the breakup. 

9. Modesty Is Good. Probably, you're not being taught by the greatest martial artist in the world. Probably, you're not being taught by the Only Living Disciple of {enter name, preferably Asian, here}, or the World Heavyweight Champion. You know what? Who cares. Are you learning? Are you having a weird good time? Are you sweating, losing weight, getting into good shape? is your confidence growing? Are you starting to deal with fundamental issues about who you are and what your life is? Are you paying a reasonable amount? Is your inner alarm staying quiet? Are you getting the normal lumps and bruises, or are you getting hurt all the time?

10. Go by your gut--how does the place you train feel? Are the other students happy and sweating a lot? Is there a lot of swaggering? Do you respect the senior students? Do you trust them?

Maybe above all--screw rank. It's just little pieces of cloth, with a pretty short history in the arts. Martial arts are supposed to teach you self-defense and physical/emotional control. They're supposed to help you grow up, as well as learn how to be kinder to people. 

And they're supposed to show you how to open up your heart. 

The other stuff? it's hilarious, when it's not really annoying or threatening.


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## KenpoNovice (Dec 13, 2004)

Professor Grandmaster Supreme Being Founder of the Style Family Head Hanshi Soke Dr. Ph'd Robert Jones,


"My UK Degree in PS is Public Policy."
*OK, what university did you receive your degree from in the U.K.?*

*Where did you find the time to study abroad while you've been running your full-time school the last eight or nine years?*


"I also graduted from the Northern Arizona University Honors Program. So With Honors appears on my diploma." 
*Did the IKKS/Porter give you your 7th-degree with honors?*


"Oh, I may also be working toward an Ed.D. Degree soon."
*Will that be before you "earn" your 10th-degree or after?*


"If you got that from any student at my school, then they were obviously working off a twisted agenda of their own, probably from being expelled."
*Yeah, it couldn't be you with the twisted agenda, could it?*


Bowing to the Hobbit,      
Kenpo Novice


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## kenpomike890 (Dec 14, 2004)

Kenpo Novice,

Have you ever met or trained with Professor Robert Jones?

Mike


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## KenpoNovice (Dec 14, 2004)

Mike,

Yes I have met him on two different occasions. Now your turn, how about answers to those questions I listed above?

Terry the KenpoNovice


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Dec 18, 2004)

Nick Ellis said:
			
		

> Re: Wu Shen Pai Kenpo in Vegas?
> 
> "He holds a Ph.D. in Public Policy and Politics and is working on a Ph.D. in Political Science."
> 
> ...


So tell us Bob, what is your reasoning and basis for this sudden change in American Kenpo that you needed to develop yet another second rate Kenpo offshoot, you've never explained that?    As someone who worked first hand with you for many years I'd be interested in why you took such drastic actions and went outside the paradigm of AK.    Your pedagogical methods were sound, but as the years went by they declined as your insatiable desire for rank and status increased.    Now you've gone completely out of AK for rank, and you certainly are not entitled to wear it as such, but I'm sure you'd disagree.    You've made a grave error with this new path, one you will pay for mentally and financially I can assure you.

DarK LorD


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## kenpomike890 (Dec 21, 2004)

Second Rate?  When you refer to a school as second rate, you are also refering to the students of Professor Jones' as second rate. I find this personally offensive and insulting since you don't know me or my background, as I am a student at the school.

I am just curious, isn't there anything better to do in Kenpo than insulting students at a school, and maybe doing Kenpo training instead?

Just a thought.


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## KenpoNovice (Dec 21, 2004)

"I am just curious, isn't there anything better to do in Kenpo than insulting students at a school, and maybe doing Kenpo training instead?"

*Maybe that's a question you should ask Bob?*

*By the way Mike, you got those answers for me for my post above?*

*Terry*


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## kenpomike890 (Dec 21, 2004)

No Terry, That's a question I am asking on here. We don't insult students at other schools, contrary to the false statements made by individuals in this forum.

In answer to the other questions, why would I need to answer them? I wouldn't worry about someone else's credentials and acheivements. I have done enough research and have had things explained to me in detail that they don't warrant further discussion in this forum.

If you are so worried about someone's rank, ask any 8th, 9th, or 10th Black, what Senior Instructor awarded them that rank?


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## rmcrobertson (Dec 21, 2004)

May we ask about your, "research," and what the "detail," was?


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## kenpomike890 (Dec 21, 2004)

As I stated, Professor Jones' Academic Credentials and background warrant no further discussion in this forum.


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## rmcrobertson (Dec 21, 2004)

One quite agrees--quod erat demonstrandum est--and was simply inquiring as to sources and methods.

Note to relative novices:

The desire to support one's teacher remains, to be sure, admirable. The question to be asked--and to be asked in all cases--is whether or not such support remains warranted. 

When one studies martial arts--or anything else, or enters analysis--there are always dangers. Freud referred to them under the general heading of "transference-love," and identified it as both what Lacan subsequently called, "the direction of the treatment and the principles of its power."

This closely resembles the issue in the martial arts. To train and study, we need a teacher. What's more, we need (and "need," is the right word, connoting as it does both practical necessity and the emotions attendant upon the dialectic situation) to trust that teacher, if for no other reason than that we need to shut up and train as we're told. 

On one hand, there have over the years proved to be many people in the martial arts who do not deserve to be trusted--right at the start of kenpo, for example, there's James Mitose. If one is unlucky enough to be their student, one may very well learn, but one can also count upon being taken advantage of.

On the other hand, there have over the years proved to be many people in the martial arts who cannot learn, because they have never figured out the difference between their defense mechanisms and genuine questions. These folks are unlikely to be taken advantage of, but they are also unlikely to learn.

Mostly, though, we end up wobbling between these extremes.

Otherwise, this poster stands by their earlier posts on this thread.


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## KenpoNovice (Dec 21, 2004)

"We don't insult students at other schools, contrary to the false statements made by individuals in this forum."

*Really? Bob did it both times I met him. He talked badly about other schools in town, other instructors, and even mentioned a former instructor at his own school! But you've never heard Bob insult anyone, have you Mike?*


"I have done enough research and have had things explained to me in detail that they don't warrant further discussion in this forum."

*Well great. Like I said before, more power to you. If you feel your "research" was **sufficient **and your happy with Mr. Jones, then I say the best of luck to you. Keep in mind, I have no problem with someone wanting to run off into Willy Wonka land unmedicated. The problem I have is poor attitude and spreading lies about others. He did it when I met him, when my friend visited him, and any former student of his I have ever met since. If Bob can't stand it, maybe he should stop talking trash about people.*


"If you are so worried about someone's rank, ask any 8th, 9th, or 10th Black, what Senior Instructor awarded them that rank?"

*Tell you what, I'll answer your question after you get answers for mine from my previous post.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



*


Terry


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Dec 21, 2004)

kenpomike890 said:
			
		

> As I stated, Professor Jones' Academic Credentials and background warrant no further discussion in this forum.


Other than the second rate thing (which is true nonetheless), you haven't answered my questions of why he took the actions he has.   I talk about people all the time, doesn't bother me one iota, and the same is true in the reverse, but slander and libel are something I will not tolerate, and Bob is at rock bottom in that department, and he's going for a jackhammer.    I will be in Vegas mid Jan., I hope to see you there when I visit Mike, I will fill you in on the truth should you want to hear it.

DarK LorD


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## kenpomike890 (Dec 21, 2004)

The reason I have not answered the questions, is it is not my place to answer your questions about Professor Jones. These are matters to be discussed with him directly.

If you are planning on visiting the studio in January, don't bother. I will be on a business trip at some point during the month of January, as will Professor Jones. 

This is a request from Mrs. Jones, who knows of your previous visits with other schools that you have issues with. She has stated that you not come here and cause a disruption.


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Dec 21, 2004)

kenpomike890 said:
			
		

> The reason I have not answered the questions, is it is not my place to answer your questions about Professor Jones. These are matters to be discussed with him directly.
> 
> If you are planning on visiting the studio in January, don't bother. I will be on a business trip at some point during the month of January, as will Professor Jones.
> 
> This is a request from Mrs. Jones, who knows of your previous visits with other schools that you have issues with. She has stated that you not come here and cause a disruption.


You know, as much as I love and adore Kris, and hope she manages well thru this whole ordeal, if she hangs on to the anchor, she's gonna sink too, but it is her choice to make.   Seems a bit convenient that you'll both be out of town during Jan. ?  

DarK LorD


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## rmcrobertson (Dec 21, 2004)

Uh...it's not your, "place," to answer questions, but it is your place to write, "If you are planning on visiting the studio in January, don't bother. I will be on a business trip at some point during the month of January, as will Professor Jones. 

This is a request from Mrs. Jones, who knows of your previous visits with other schools that you have issues with. She has stated that you not come here and cause a disruption."

Yes, I'm a friend and training partner of Clyde's. I don't see the whole world the way he does, but I'm still confused as to what the heck's going on.

Otherwise, I stand by my earlier posts.


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## kenpomike890 (Dec 21, 2004)

No It is not by convenience. I actually have a job where I will be out of town in January. What Professor is doing has nothing to do with my trip.


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Dec 21, 2004)

kenpomike890 said:
			
		

> The reason I have not answered the questions, is it is not my place to answer your questions about Professor Jones. These are matters to be discussed with him directly.
> 
> If you are planning on visiting the studio in January, don't bother. I will be on a business trip at some point during the month of January, as will Professor Jones.
> 
> This is a request from Mrs. Jones, who knows of your previous visits with other schools that you have issues with. She has stated that you not come here and cause a disruption.


Hmm, Bob will be out of town so I won't be able to confront him directly, where does that leave me?

BTW, the other guy I visited was Al Farnsworth, someone Bob insulted all the time, to me and others, I went to his studio and did it to his face. He's dead now of course, water under the bridge. 

I'm also looking into having all rank given to Bob, by all previous instructors, revoked. I hear that's a tactic he likes to use for coercion, maybe a brown belt would look good on him, whatdaya think Dennis?


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## Goldendragon7 (Dec 22, 2004)

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> Maybe a brown belt would look good on him, whatdaya think Dennis?


 Well, since I didn't promote him to anything...... I am not someone that you need to ask. I know his history first hand (as you already know) and what he does or dosen't do doesn't effect me or my organization one bit.

 He is not the first one to take this type of action within the Martial Arts and specifically Kenpo, and I'm sure he won't be the last.   

 Those that do not realize that they are walking in the dark will never see the light. 

  :asian:


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## KenpoNovice (Dec 22, 2004)

"I will be on a business trip at some point during the month of January, as will Professor Jones." 

*For a guy who doesn't speak for Bobby your doing a pretty good job! *
*Maybe I can play mediator here between you and Dark Kenpo Lord. *
*Mike what works out better for you and Bob, late December or January. You did say that any problems need to be discussed face-to-face! *


"What Professor is doing has nothing to do with my trip."

*Maybe Bob's attending school in the U.K.!*


"This is a request from Mrs. Jones, who knows of your previous visits with other schools that you have issues with. She has stated that you not come here and cause a disruption."

*Now we see the real decision-maker at the school!!! *

*Doesn't Mr. Jones want to discuss these issues with his former friends and instructors? He did post on this thread a few days ago about his educational background. What happened?!? Bobby, let's set-up a round table discussion so we can speak about these issues like grown-ups. Please ask Kris if it's OK and get back to us.*

*Always Bowing to your Hobbitness Bob,:asian:*
*Terry the KenpoNovice*


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## Nick Ellis (Dec 24, 2004)

First of all  Clyde....  you really must have no life if all you think about from the time you wake up till the time you go to sleep is how to ruin Professor Jones
I will have you know that he doesnt think about you or Larry at all.
and yes when students commit unspeakable acts like going against agreements they signed with the school they get demoted in rank. there have only been 2 students professor has had to do this with and it is also at the approval of the executive board not just him. that is how it was in my old school except my old teacher would do alot worse. he would call them out beat the hell out of them and physically strip them of rank.  I have worked hand and hand day in and day out with Professor for about the last year. I see him more than I see my own family. It has been a priviledge and Honor for me to have worked with him.   I am glad why prof has done what he did.. the American kenpo community is nothing more than a rotting ses-pool of gossip. Wu shen Pai is about preserving the old ways of honor and integrity. Martial artists who do nothing more than gossip and try to ruin others careers are nothing more than thugs... why is Wu Shen Pai different because we work throws joint locks  acupunture and accupressure bone setting  Tai chi yang and chang style if you must know and other healing arts. We also teach our students to be respectful and to act with honor.   you guys make me sick..  years ago before I even started kenpo I was warned about how you sharks act by my old teacher.  

where is the honor in that Clyde.. I don't see it.  

there is no way John Sepulveda is going to listen to you or care what you think
and neither is Paul Mills
Philip Porter already gave you his answer..

enough is enough

answer me this your in california and we are in Nevada why should what we do bother you in anyway.  if you wanted to run around town in a rainbow colored gi it doesnt effect us.   if you wanted to start your own system it doesnt effect us.    

ohh and terry kenpo novice if you want to run your mouth then why dont you step in our school and do it. if memory serves me correctly I was there when you were. and you were not highly thought of when you left by any of us that were there that day.. 

as the new year approaches let bi gones be bi gones worry about your selfs and your training..
peace to all
proud member of the IKKS
Nicholas Ellis MCSE A+


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## kenpowonderer (Dec 24, 2004)

Mr. Ellis, there is no need to insult someone who out ranks you by any means.  You know this as well as I do.  You and Mr. Jones have asked where I put my loyalties, well here they are.  They lie within each of my many many instructors over the years.  I have served (And I do mean the word SERVED) all of them with in limits and outside limits of my personal well being.  They lie within the ART OF AMERICAN KENPO.  So those are my loyalties, I have had enough with everyone in Vegas questioning those. 

I have found some people who never will question those, because they have seen what I have done for all of my Instructors.  You talk about respect, and honor and integrity where is yours??


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Dec 24, 2004)

Nick Ellis said:
			
		

> First of all Clyde.... you really must have no life if all you think about from the time you wake up till the time you go to sleep is how to ruin Professor Jones
> I will have you know that he doesnt think about you or Larry at all.
> and yes when students commit unspeakable acts like going against agreements they signed with the school they get demoted in rank. there have only been 2 students professor has had to do this with and it is also at the approval of the executive board not just him. that is how it was in my old school except my old teacher would do alot worse. he would call them out beat the hell out of them and physically strip them of rank. I have worked hand and hand day in and day out with Professor for about the last year. I see him more than I see my own family. It has been a priviledge and Honor for me to have worked with him. I am glad why prof has done what he did.. the American kenpo community is nothing more than a rotting ses-pool of gossip. Wu shen Pai is about preserving the old ways of honor and integrity. Martial artists who do nothing more than gossip and try to ruin others careers are nothing more than thugs... why is Wu Shen Pai different because we work throws joint locks acupunture and accupressure bone setting Tai chi yang and chang style if you must know and other healing arts. We also teach our students to be respectful and to act with honor. you guys make me sick.. years ago before I even started kenpo I was warned about how you sharks act by my old teacher.
> 
> ...


I've PMed you with my phone # so ck  your messages.   I've also talked to Antoine last night, I've known him for many years you see.

DarK LorD


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## Seig (Dec 24, 2004)

This thread is locked until I decide what to do with it.
Seig
MT Ops Admin


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