# I have fallen to the Dark Side.........



## Andy Moynihan (Mar 17, 2009)

...and been seduced by the power of the relatively inexpensive( even for here) price, the unexpected quality, the perfect, glovelike ergonomics and 10+1 on-tap capacity of the Smith and Wesson M&P .45 fullsize. Traded in my aging and ever-increasingly-difficult-to-replace-in-this-communist-state Glock for it. I do not regret this for I shall scream forth the blasphemy that the M&P feels better in my hand than any Glock I have EVER held and is more accurate to boot.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 17, 2009)

Colt 1911A1.  But you have to have the stones for it.


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## tellner (Mar 17, 2009)

Or the pillows. The 1911 is my wife's second-favorite pistol.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 17, 2009)

tellner said:


> Or the pillows. The 1911 is my wife's second-favorite pistol.


:asian:


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## elder999 (Mar 17, 2009)

Grew up with the flat slab. Gifted my daughter with one (ever notice how crazies _love_ med students?) . Went Glock strictly for 10mm ('cause of _*bears*_) but still fall back on the .45, a lot of the time.......

....though the 9 mm is still perfectly okay-as long as you're not expecting *bears*. :lol:


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 17, 2009)

elder999 said:


> Grew up with the flat slab. Gifted my daughter with one (ever notice how crazies _love_ med students?) . Went Glock strictly for 10mm ('cause of _*bears*_) but still fall back on the .45, a lot of the time.......
> 
> ....though the 9 mm is still perfectly okay-as long as you're not expecting *bears*. :lol:



OK, I have to admit to a guilty pleasure.  My wife and I love our Sauer and Sohn "Western Marshal" .44 Mag Single-Action Army clone.  She is a great shot with it, fixed sights and all.  Take it to the indoor range, and I love the reaction.  Everybody in their stalls, plinking away, and she takes aim and KAWOOM!  Three-foot flame shoots out the bidness end, and all the Wonder-Nines cease their chatter - people step back and claw at their Mickey Mouse ears, going WHAT THE HELL WAS THAT?

And my wife is grinning from ear-to-ear as she draws the smiley face on the sillouhette target at 25 feet.


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## Andy Moynihan (Mar 18, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Colt 1911A1. But you have to have the stones for it.


 

1911's a great gun, I've owned several over time, but not worth the money to me anymore, and as far as carry or home defense is concerned I'm not willing to take a chance on a ND with that SA-only trigger with no give, when the safety's flicked off, my pulse is going thrice normal, my hands are shaking and I can't feel my fingers.

(I know, I know, we all hear the line about "just follow your training and keep the finger off the trigger", and we DO all make every effort to, but real life doesn't always work lke that once the stress is on).

The Smith M&P has *enough* trigger give to act as a buffer for those times adrenaline makes it tough for your finger to feel whether its still on/off the trigger but technically *IS* single action once compressed. Like a Glock trigger but better.

Only thing is the reset is nowhere near as sharp and identifiable for those shooters who like to ride the reset between shots.


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## searcher (Mar 18, 2009)

Andy, you are a blasphemer and you need to be punished.    As a father of 3 Glocks, I shiver to think you could do such a thing.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 18, 2009)

Andy Moynihan said:


> 1911's a great gun, I've owned several over time, but not worth the money to me anymore, and as far as carry or home defense is concerned I'm not willing to take a chance on a ND with that SA-only trigger with no give, when the safety's flicked off, my pulse is going thrice normal, my hands are shaking and I can't feel my fingers.



Wheelgun is fine for DA people.  I like my S&W Model 10.  Yes, the lowly Model 10.  Fine weapon, and handles +P Silvertips just fine.  Bobbed hammer and Pachmyr grips, it's the shizz.


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## Andy Moynihan (Mar 18, 2009)

searcher said:


> Andy, you are a blasphemer and you need to be punished. As a father of 3 Glocks, I shiver to think you could do such a thing.


 
If you only knew the power of the Dark Side.....An American Made pistol....like Glocks but better.......join me, it is your dessssss-tiny. I am your father's brother's nephew's cousin's former roommate.....


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## Andy Moynihan (Mar 18, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Wheelgun is fine for DA people. I like my S&W Model 10. Yes, the lowly Model 10. Fine weapon, and handles +P Silvertips just fine. Bobbed hammer and Pachmyr grips, it's the shizz.


 

My backup/primary summer carry is a S&W model 642 w/ Crimson Trace grips, so my revolver needs are filled.

2 inch snubbie with 5 rounds is far from ideal but beats going unarmed because nothing else was comfortable or suitable based on clothing/weather needs to carry.


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## zDom (Mar 18, 2009)

Andy Moynihan said:


> My backup/primary summer carry is *a S&W model 642 w/ Crimson Trace grips*, so my revolver needs are filled.
> 
> 2 inch snubbie with 5 rounds is far from ideal but beats going unarmed because nothing else was comfortable or suitable based on clothing/weather needs to carry.



I'm thinking of going the EXACT same route ... for the same reasons.

I LOVE my p226 but it seems so LARGE (especially since I've never EVER carried before).

Heck, I almost never even wear a BELT ... the idea of grabbing my phone, keys AND strapping on a big hunk of metal when I leave my home seems ... cumbersome, to say the least.

Slipping a smaller, light aluminum thing in my pocket seems a lot more feasible for me.

Still mulling it over, though.


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## Sukerkin (Mar 18, 2009)

tellner said:


> Or the pillows. The 1911 is my wife's second-favorite pistol.


 
*Tellner*!! :lol:.  Wait one whilst I mop up my re-aspirated tea .

I've never heard that expression before - excellent :tup:.


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## elder999 (Mar 18, 2009)

tellner said:


> Or the pillows. The 1911 is my wife's second-favorite pistol.


 

Being married to the reincarnation of Annie Oakley, I didn't get that at first....


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## Andy Moynihan (Mar 18, 2009)

zDom said:


> I'm thinking of going the EXACT same route ... for the same reasons.
> 
> I LOVE my p226 but it seems so LARGE (especially since I've never EVER carried before).
> 
> ...


 
It'll depend on your build and clothing style.

I found a full size Glock 17, with the right IWB holster/belt, conceals fine on me with a black tank top tucked in to keep the gun off my skin and match the holster/gun's color in the event the T shirt hikes up, and an untucked t shirt one size large hid the whole thing fine with hardly any print( especially if you use ther 45 degree "FBI rake").

Worked well today with even a crappy IWB holster( temporary till my holster is made) and a sweatshirt today.

And the Smith MP45 is not noticeably wider than the Glock was.

But maybe I don't wanna wear an untucked shirt, BDU blouse or other belt covering concealing garment, or maybe i have to dress somewhat nice for whatever reason.

Pocket holsters are your friend and can break up the snubbie's print and keep the trigger covered, but any good one will stay in the pocket when the snubbie is drawn.

No problems with sitting down, It doesn't interfere with social hugging such as at a family gathering, you can merely put your hand casually in your pocket if you twig that something's wrong--there is no faster draw than having your hand already on your gun, in such a way as not to even alert the sheeple.

If you have done the smart thing and gotten an enclosed, hammerless model(Such as the Smith 642), you need not even draw from your coat/sweatshirt/whatever pocket--there is no slide or hammer to catch on anything--the hammerless snubbie goes bang once in the pocket, it will go bang the next 4. Autos are only good for 1 in that instance and don't respond well to carry in sometimes gritty pockets if anything works its way into the slide.

But Be Warned:

*Do not expect ANYTHING like the accuracy you can expect from your full size SIG. I am happy to get all five shots into a roughly rib-cage/torso size area at 7 yds/21 ft and that's using BOTH hands. This is not a "target" gun, it's a "GET OFF ME!" gun. 

*I can handle 38+Ps in mine but I'm not very recoil sensitive. FInd out where your comfort zone is with the airweight guns before you load them for carry.

*If you DO decide to go with a .357 snubbie, I STRONGLY recommend an all-steel gun, no alloy. Trust me on this one. No, really.

Since it may be carried as a backup to your fullsize auto, my common practice is to carry it in my left pocket:

*there's a gun in reach of either hand if my primary hand is wounded

* I therefore do much of my practice with the snubbie one handed with my left hand. That's how you live if hit in your good side.


If carried alone it matters not which pocket but practice from both so as not to get trapped by one-side-only muscle memory.


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## Sukerkin (Mar 18, 2009)

I really should stop reading these threads; it just makes me sigh at the martial heritage our government robbed us of not all that long ago with their stupid laws that actually accelerated gun crime whilst simultaneously killing the passtimes of the shooting, law abiding, public, stone dead .

The fact that it also means that none of us can carry firearms to protect ourselves in the rare event that we are faced with an armed assailant is an important issue too but not so socially prominent in it's effects on once ordinary behaviour. Can you imagine if I still had my rifle and dared carry it, in it's case, from my house to my car? It's bad enough with my swords, which look similar when cased up ... I'm sure one day I'll turn around and find an armed response team on my **** .


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## Andy Moynihan (Mar 18, 2009)

Sukerkin said:


> I really should stop reading these threads; it just makes me sigh at the martial heritage our government robbed us of not all that long ago with their stupid laws that actually accelerated gun crime whilst simultaneously killing the passtimes of the shooting, law abiding, public, stone dead .
> 
> The fact that it also means that none of us can carry firearms to protect ourselves in the rare event that we are faced with an armed assailant is an important issue too but not so socially prominent in it's effects on once ordinary behaviour. Can you imagine if I still had my rifle and dared carry it, in it's case, from my house to my car? It's bad enough with my swords, which look similar when cased up ... I'm sure one day I'll turn around and find an armed response team on my **** .


 

Once I once get settled in Texas , if there's room for you and yours, come on down.


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## Sukerkin (Mar 18, 2009)

Oh how tempted I am, my friend. Particularly as I get the feeling that things are going to go seriously Pete Tong here in the not too distant future .  

Integrated, multi-cultural, prosperous, free bordered society my bum!  But that's a way different topic, so I'll shush (my econo-socio-political dander would appear to be up tonight ).


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## Andy Moynihan (Mar 18, 2009)

"Pete Tong"?

I'm gonna guess that's a euphemism for "bad".


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## Sukerkin (Mar 18, 2009)

Pete Tong = Wrong (in a catastrophic sense of the word).  It's a somewhat hip, Cockney rhyming slang way of saying "all ****ed up!".


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## Andy Moynihan (Mar 18, 2009)

What I figured.


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## Grenadier (Mar 19, 2009)

Congrats on the purchase.  Smith and Wesson had been trying for a long time, to make a decent Glock clone, and they finally did it with the M&P series.  These are far superior to the miserable Sigma series...  




Andy Moynihan said:


> > *If you DO decide to go with a .357 snubbie, I STRONGLY recommend an all-steel gun, no alloy. Trust me on this one. No, really.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## zDom (Mar 19, 2009)

Thanks for all the great advice!

I am already practicing strong hand/weak hand with my SIG, and will do the same with a snubbie, if I end up getting one.

I've also been eyeing AK-47s and/or AR-15s.

Damn. There's no denying it: I've caught the firearms bug. Isn't there some sort of vaccine??


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 19, 2009)

zDom said:


> Damn. There's no denying it: I've caught the firearms bug. Isn't there some sort of vaccine??



Yes, but it is a ritual you don't want to go through.  Involves laying in a box where they cry about you and then throw dirt on your face.


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## Andy Moynihan (Mar 19, 2009)

zDom said:


> Thanks for all the great advice!
> 
> I am already practicing strong hand/weak hand with my SIG, and will do the same with a snubbie, if I end up getting one.
> 
> ...


 

AK. AR's aren't worth the damn money.

You got the money to blow on a ****in' AR, you can afford a decent M1A.

If you *MUST* have an AR-type rifle go with a SIG 556, they at least have the gas piston action and not the direct-impingement system that blows crap right back into the action.

Having fired, been issued, had to field strip and clean several AR/M16/M4 rifles I would ditch the damn thing the first chance I got.

As of right now I own no semiauto rifle. I'm happy with my Mossberg 590A1.

Come time for me to need something like an infantry rifle there'll be plenty lying around without my paying out the nose for a crippled( civilian) version.


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## Cryozombie (Mar 19, 2009)

Andy Moynihan said:


> ...and been seduced by the power of the relatively inexpensive( even for here) price, the unexpected quality, the perfect, glovelike ergonomics and 10+1 on-tap capacity of the Smith and Wesson M&P .45 fullsize. Traded in my aging and ever-increasingly-difficult-to-replace-in-this-communist-state Glock for it. I do not regret this for I shall scream forth the blasphemy that the M&P feels better in my hand than any Glock I have EVER held and is more accurate to boot.


 
Dude, you need to go to Glockaholkics Anonymous.


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## Sukerkin (Mar 19, 2009)

I'l bet that it's way off the 'cool list' these days but my favourite semi-auto handgun has always been the CZ75 (and maybe the Browning Hi-Power too).  

Perhaps it's because I got to shoot one once but mainly I think because, back in the days when it was okay to be a 'gun buff' here in Britain, it was the irony that a Czech made pistol could be so good.


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## LawDog (Mar 19, 2009)

For approx. twenty years I owned a modified 1911. Dumb thing I did, during a weak moment I sold it. Soon I will buy another one and have it customized like my last one.
Even though I love and carried various semi auto's for over thirty years I am still a wheel gunner at heart. The S&W L framed 357 mag. is the one hand gun that still fits me like a glove. Shooting various combat courses I usuall run the 100% grade.


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## searcher (Mar 19, 2009)

I will at least say this much, at least it is a "plastic" gun.    I took a class with a guy that went through 3 Kimber 1911's and everyone else was still running their little toy guns.


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## Andy Moynihan (Mar 20, 2009)

Sukerkin said:


> I'l bet that it's way off the 'cool list' these days but my favourite semi-auto handgun has always been the CZ75 (and maybe the Browning Hi-Power too).
> 
> Perhaps it's because I got to shoot one once but mainly I think because, back in the days when it was okay to be a 'gun buff' here in Britain, it was the irony that a Czech made pistol could be so good.


 

CZs aren't bad, and I loved the one Hi-Power I shot.

Hell, even the 1911 guru himself, St. Cooper, remarked that the Browning Hi Power fit more naturally in his hand than any other gun he'd tried. "What a shame" , he added, "that it was not offered in a caliber of consequence".


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## KenpoTex (Mar 20, 2009)

Hi-Powers are sweet...I've actually been looking at a few lately (particularly the "Detective" models).  While I probably won't mess with getting one right now since I don't want to invest in all the support gear (mags, holster, etc.), I do want one someday.

I carried a 1911 until I switched to a Glock about 5 years ago...they are neat but I don't think they're worth what it costs to get one that's as reliable as my $480 hunk of plastic.


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## Deaf Smith (Mar 20, 2009)

For many years in IPSC I used the P-35 High Power (and mine was made in Belgium, and assembled there to!

I had tried 1911 .45s (Colt series 70) but just about everyone I tried jammed some. In fact at my IPSC club, there never was a match where a 1911 didn't jam! I had read from Skeeter Skelton how the P-35 worked everytime right out of the box, so I had to try that.

And that is really how I won several local tropies. My P-35 didn't jam, but the other guys 1911s did. One was so po'ed that he threw his mag that jammed over the backstop. And my main ammo was CCI Blazer aluminum case ammo (back then it was CHEEP to buy.) Worked every time (as Tommy Lee Jones would say.)

Well later I got into IDPA. By that time I had sold my P-35. But being savvy, I knew one of the KEY requirements was the gun had to work all the time. And if it needed a super gunsmith to get it right, then it was the wrong piece.

My search ended with Glock. I read about the reliability, I read about the toughness, I read about the low maintenance, I read about the long term durability. I read.... well you get the idea.

So I bought a Glock 17. It never failed. 100,000 + rounds later, and it still hasn't failed... well actually once the slide retaining spring broke and I had to replace it (2 bucks). And a few of the mags, after long hard use, and the slide hold open tab break off.

But unlike the 1911s, no fancy expensive gunsmithing. No finding mags that worked. No cleaning the gun after each practice session (yep, I get real lazy with that 17!)

Now about the P-35. It was the Glock of it's day. It's still a good gun that will do you great service. I'd love to pick up an Argintine FM and get the 'detective' slide like KenpoTex is talking about. Last month I let a FN made Browning HP slip through my fingers. They wanted $750 (it was made in Belgium) and that kind of made it hard for me to justify. 

Next time I'll be ready for it!

Deaf


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