# Sparring and Hapkido?



## SmellyMonkey

My school does not allow sparring.  I asked one of the old timers why we do not spar, and I was told that 8-10 years ago sparring was allowed in our school.  However, due to the numbers of people getting injured, it was stopped.

I asked my master whom I have private lessons with if she knew about hapkido sparring.  She said that they did hapkido sparring in Korea for a short time during her training at Yong-In Univ.  However, they too stopped sparring because of injuries.

I believe sparring is important.  My wife (also a student of hapkido) and I have built a dojang in our home and invite fellow students to come over and spar.  We don't have a lot of guidance as to rules we should follow, so we make up the rules before each sparring session.  However, we need help.

Basically, the reason I want to spar is to practice against a non-compliant person, similar to what would happen "on the street".  The sparring sessions we have had have really opened my eyes to the difficulty of winning a street fight, even with some martial arts training.

My question.  Does anyone have experience hapkido sparring?  How do you spar?  What are allowable techniques?  What protective gear do you wear?  What level of training do you believe is required before a student begins sparring?

Thanks in advance.


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## glad2bhere

I don't know if this will be of any help but I throw it out for what its worth. 

YMK Hapkido does not do sparring, as such.  Rather, beginning with Brown Belt we do "free form". The idea is to interact spontaneously with one or more individuals such that one is able identify weaknesses or limitations in execution that simply don't come out in one-step (usually because the person is over-compliant), or in free-sparring as an individual often is caught-up in the activity and naturally falls back on his "bread&butter techniques" when pressed. Some grappling arts have "flow drills" and some have pre-determined two-man forms. Free form is a bit more spontaneous, but is still not 100% as there is simply too much potential for injury. If we were back a couple of centuries we probably wouldn't have to worry quite so much about getting up the next day for work, Ne?  Hope this helps. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## SmellyMonkey

Bruce-


Could you go into a bit more detail about free form and how I could use it as a training tool?


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## Disco

The mind set that most people equate to "sparring" is that akin to boxing. Two people sqaure off and attempt to score or in the case of Hapkido, control the other person. The main problem with this concept is that faulty habits begin to sneak into your background. Street self defense is predicated on stopping the attacker, post haste. Many hapkido techniques, while very practical, have to be supplemented by softening up techniques, i.e. strikes and or kicks. To go into a training hall setting and attempt to force certain techniques - using power against power, defeats the premise of Hapkido.  As you stated, you want to try to use the techniques against a non-compliant person. You will find out real quick that you will resort to using power if you attempt to do the technique and it will turn into a tug of war with the stronger person prevailing and whatever technique you had in mind just went out the window. 

As Bruce pointed out, with even his free form, there is potential for injury. Nothing is 100% guaranteed, but supplementing as above does increase your technique proficiency greatly.


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## Incheon

I am currently living in Korea and train 5 days a week in Hapkido.  Because of my work schedule and being the only adult at the dojang, I basically have private lessons with the Kwanjangnim.  We don't do any sparring in my classes, but every Friday he has the children's classes do Hapkido sparring.  It looks pretty fun!  It uses the WTF Taekwondo fighting rules in addition to throws and low spin-kicks.  Joint-locks are not allowed.  I train in Kang-Mu Kwan (formerly Mu-Mu Kwan), but I went to an open Hapkido tournament in Bucheon 2 weeks ago and they were using the same sparring rules as well.

-Wade Chilcoat


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## glad2bhere

Like anything else in the MA I can't tell you how to do it because the activity proceeds from a process and one day your are working with you fellow practitioners and it just "clicks".  What I CAN do is outline the process and give you an idea of how I coach people into the activity. 

1.) By the time students reach Brown Belt they have been doing Hapkido for about three or four years and have a pretty decent idea of some 25 favorite techniques which are their "bread&butter techniques". If your style of Hapkido does not have a kebonsu AKA set of core techniques you will have to go with those B&B techniques but the process works better with a kebonsu as everyone in the kwan knows those and usually responds uniformally to them. In YMK Hapkido GM Myung has a core of ten techniques from which everything else proceeds, so theres the start. 

2.) Begin with a single partner, off the grab, this reduces the need to acquire proper combat distance from the start. Perform one of the kebonsu in response. This will become comfortable over a number of classes at which time you add another person 180 degrees behind you. Now deal with the two people-- one front and one back. When this is comfortable add another 90 degrees to one side and then another 90 degrees to the other side. You now have 4 people at the cardinal points of the compass grabbing you, in rotation at first, then spontaneously. In time you can work up to eight people. I find that more than that things get very cluttered and people are in each others' way---- and learning slows. 

3.) Continue to respond to grabs, but gradually have random folks strike-- then kick. An order such as "# 3 and 5 attack with strikes; 1 & 6 attack with kicks". The trick is to go smoothly and learn to respond from the final position of the last technique so as to initiate the opening moves of the next technique wherever it comes from. There is no sense in telling you to go slowly with this process since its human nature to push hard for gratification. It will take one or two fat lips or wrenched arms before you find that optimum speed that you can work at without actually hurting your partners. 

The there is the alternative: Flow Drills. 

1.) Harder to do because the individuals need to apply the technique only to the point of failure at which time the partner counters with his technique again only to failure and then the other person responds. 

2.) I recommend starting flow drills with pre-organized ones. Doshin So has a couple of nice grappling 2-man kata in his book, and I just discovered a really fine 2-man form in a Chinese Boxing book. Hope this is of some help. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Incheon

oops! posted twice


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## kwanjang

Hap Ki Do sparring in North-America has been curtailed over the past few years due to insurance regulations.  At West Point, we were still able to use throws, sweeps, etc, but I guess they don't worry too much about insurance regulations neh  We recently attended the World Hap Ki Do Championships in Korea, so I know they still do it there.  Not too many injuries, and only one or two knock outs (not as bad as the Arnold Classics were a few years back when they actually had several ambulances going and coming back for more 

FWIW, I think this record can be improved upon if the official ceremonies were held on Friday, so the competitors would not have as long (some 12 hours) to wait in order to compete.  People are just not sharp after such a long wait, and injuries will become more frequent.


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## fringe_dweller

If it isn't rude to ask, how long have you been training?

As Bruce mentioned, free form starts in his school at Brown Belt - roughly three or four years after you start training. After this long you would have learnt some control and doing the style of "sparring" that he has mentioned would be much less dangerous than just going at it six or twelve months after you start.

Cheers

Grant


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## kwanjang

I don't mind you asking; however, I am not sure who you are asking.  I began training in martial arts in 1950, and I have continued training and teaching ever since.  I carry my white belt with me wherever I go, and I am never too old to learn.  I see you are from the land downunda.  I did a seminar in Australia just last year.  Loved the country and the work (training) habits of the students there.  Reminded me of the way it was in most schools here just a few decades ago


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## fringe_dweller

Hi Rudy,

Sorry, I should have been more clear - I was asking the original poster. Heard a lot of rave reviews about your trip out here, I was away for the weekend so missed out but MG was extremely happy with how everything went.

Regards,


Grant


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## SmellyMonkey

I've only been training 1.5 years, 4-6 hours a week.  And I admit, perhaps it is too soon for me to begin free form.  I think flow drills are safer for me to do with my experience.

Still, even if I won't be using pure hapkido moves, I need to practice some strike sparring.  Currently my training buddy and I strap on the headgear and grappling gloves and "box" (no kicking allowed). At least now I learn how to recover mentally and still fight after a good hard hit to the head.  The first few times I got hit hard, my brain shut off and I wanted to stop fighting.  Now I can shake it off and keep going.  Don't know any other way to really prepare for how to take a hit and keep going, besides to actually take a hit and keep going!  

My buddy and I just started practicing scenerios.  I'm having a hard time when practicing scenerios such as an attacker running in, putting you in the clinch and then push/pulling you around.  It's kind of a let down, because I thought I would be confident in that situation and react instinctivly.  The compliant partner practice we do in school has not yet programmed my brain to do the stimulant/response automatically.  Ah well, it will click someday.


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## iron_ox

Hello S.M.

I think maybe part of the issue is that you have not yet been taught the skills to deal with each and every situation.  I disagree with your need to get hit and move through it though.  The best defense against getting hit is not being there - try evasion first, then stand there and get whacked in the head.  Also, maybe try simple covers of the head, they deflect most blows.
Finally, redirection is key to Hapkido, use whatever you are given and redirect the energy away from you, that is a good way to train the body to react, the brain should not react, it should think and respond in unison with the body.

I also wonder from your posts if the real keys of Hapkido are taught at you dojang - if you train where I think you do, then many key elements are not taught at all unfortunately.

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor


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## SmellyMonkey

iron_ox said:
			
		

> I disagree with your need to get hit and move through it though. The best defense against getting hit is not being there - try evasion first, then stand there and get whacked in the head. Also, maybe try simple covers of the head, they deflect most blows.
> Finally, redirection is key to Hapkido, use whatever you are given and redirect the energy away from you, that is a good way to train the body to react, the brain should not react, it should think and respond in unison with the body.
> 
> I also wonder from your posts if the real keys of Hapkido are taught at you dojang - if you train where I think you do, then many key elements are not taught at all unfortunately.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Kevin Sogor


The point of my sparring outside of class was not simply to get hit in the head.     I am trying to turn 3 broken noses into a positive experience!  Trust me, once I learned how hard it was to try and block a flurry of hand-strikes, my avoidance and covering skills improved dramatically.



I have also learned the importance of redirection.  I figured that out when I saw how well the inside and outside spin worked against my partner when he charged.  I've been practicing those two techniques quite a bit.  



Also, I am sure you can figure which school I go to.  And I agree, it isn't the best.  That is why I try to supplement my training the best that I can, which means building a dojang in my home and practicing things not taught in school.

I have been extremely fortunate for the last month to be given private lessons on weekends with a master who used to teach at our school.  She is an amazing martial artist and fantastic teacher, and I know with her guidance I will improve.  It has been hard, however.  For the last couple months I have had little guidance and had to be self-reliant.  Now that I have a master, I have to trust her 100%.  Since my trust was broken by masters in the school losing their motivation to teach, to trust another master takes some effort.  But it is getting easier every day I train under her.


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## kwanjang

Sorry Grant.  Did not mean to intrude.


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## fringe_dweller

Rudy,

No intrusion at all 

Grant


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## iron_ox

Also, I am sure you can figure which school I go to.  And I agree, it isn't the best.  That is why I try to supplement my training the best that I can, which means building a dojang in my home and practicing things not taught in school.

I have been extremely fortunate for the last month to be given private lessons on weekends with a master who used to teach at our school.  She is an amazing martial artist and fantastic teacher, and I know with her guidance I will improve.  It has been hard, however.  For the last couple months I have had little guidance and had to be self-reliant.  Now that I have a master, I have to trust her 100%.  Since my trust was broken by masters in the school losing their motivation to teach, to trust another master takes some effort.  But it is getting easier every day I train under her.[/QUOTE]

Hello S.M.,

OK, so why do you still train at a dojang that YOU think is sub-standard?  What a waste of your time and money...

Why not focus all your efforts on the other instructor, or find a new school?  If it is because you have a "contract" there, Illinois Law is very specific, if the contract is not being fulfilled, it can be voided.  It sounds like the teachers at this place could care less about you, so why continue to pump them with money?

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor


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## SmellyMonkey

iron_ox said:
			
		

> Hello S.M.,
> 
> OK, so why do you still train at a dojang that YOU think is sub-standard?  What a waste of your time and money...
> 
> Why not focus all your efforts on the other instructor, or find a new school? If it is because you have a "contract" there, Illinois Law is very specific, if the contract is not being fulfilled, it can be voided. It sounds like the teachers at this place could care less about you, so why continue to pump them with money?
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Kevin Sogor


 I have 1.5 years left on my contract.  While Illinois law may give one power to get out of a contract that is not being fulfilled, how could I prove to a judge that the contract is not being fulfilled?  The contract is for 4 hours of martial arts training each week.  The school is giving me 4 hours of martial arts training a week.  While it may not be the quality that I wish for, it would be hard to prove to a judge that the quality is SO bad that it lets void the contract.  

 I am not without blame.  I chose to sign a 3 year contract vs a 1 year contract due to the monthly savings.  It was a poor choice on my part, but that is something I have to live and learn from.

 I am just a beginner.  Even low quality instruction helps me.  Maybe in another 1.5 years, I will have outgrown the school.  Hopefully at that time my weekend master will have a school of her own that I can go to.


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## iron_ox

Hello S.M.,

Sorry to hear you are stuck for another year and a half...I really hate when people that trust a school get ripped off.  So for you, I extend an invitation to train at my dojang whenever you wish, at no charge until your contract at *y**'s joint is up.

4 hours of "not quite" Hapkido is not what you agreed to...so please visit me, no strings attached, and let's get some good training under your belt before you are jaded from Hapkido altogether - it would be my pleasure.

My site is listed in my profile. (Sorry, no advertising intended here).

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor


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## kwanjang

This rekindles my belief in martial arts.  Seems there are still some folks out there who have Jung Shin. :asian:


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## glad2bhere

Dear S-M: 

FWIW, I would heartily encourage you to take Kevin up on his offer, or find time to drop in on Rudys' up-coming event in Ohio. A HUGE portion of the Hapkido arts occurs between your ears and you can easily find yourself disappointed, frustrated, and confused even before you know it. Both Kevin and Rudy are excellent people with good hearts and the best intentions of their students in view. Even after some 20 years of Hapkido training I was still susceptible to abreacting against folks in the Hapkido community as a result of some recent experiences. I can tell you from personal experience that folks such as Kevin and Rudy are the sort of people you want to be around to help keep your feet under you as you walk the Warriors Path. Perhaps this is most important for someone such as yourself who is just starting off and only beginning to formulate your thoughts on your relationship with the KMA. I'm thinking you may want to accept a bit of guidance at these early stages.  

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## howard

smellymonkey, it might be worth a try to just have a talk with the school and ask them to release you from your contract, given that you do not believe it is being met on their end.  and even if you walk away, they might not come after you (would probably depend on their size - are they large enough to employ a collection agency and attorneys to try to prove you breached the contract?)  just a thought...

at any rate, i agree with some of the others, that you should take up the generous offer made to you.

good luck.  and at the very least, as you say, you've lived and learned.


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## SmellyMonkey

Wow.  I sent Mr. Sogor a private-message thank you last night.  I was very touched by his offer.  I hope to drop by his school sometime in the next few weeks to thank him personally, and see what I've been missing by training at *y**'s Hapkido.  

However, my weekend master (let's call her MJJ) is really "my master" in the full sense of the word.  She has taken my wife and I on as "her" students.  While she has been teaching hapkido at *y**'s for something like 8 years, she never really got to pass on her style because she was teaching at *y**'s school and had to follow *y**'s direction.  MJJ told us that for the first time, she really feels like she has students of her own with us.  My wife and I have been practicing what she teaches us just about every day, because we feel burdened (in a good way) with absorbing everything this women teaches us.  Not just the Hapkido techniques, but about how to live life as a warrior.

She respects GM *y** very much, as he was like a father to her when she first came to America.  Even though my wife and I might not be getting the best training at *y**'s school, we don't wish to disrepect GM *y** or get out of the contract in such a way that would dishonor GM *y**.  It may seem like we have dishonored the father of our master!  That wouldn't be good.

And about Mr. Sogor's offer...  Sometime within the next year, MJJ will be opening a school of her own.  Since she is my master, my wife and I will train at her dojang.  If I were to train at Mr. Sogor's school, for free, until MJJ has a school of her own, I would feel like I had taken advantage of Mr. Sogor's kindness.  

Again, I wish to say thanks to Mr. Sogor.  If, for some reason, MJJ were to no longer wish to be our master, I hope you will allow my wife and I to be your students.  

Trying to be honorable is tough!!!

To Howard-  I think our school sells our contract to a third party.  They have a pretty big collection department.


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## hedgehogey

Smellymonkey: You have the right idea. Training with a noncompliant partner is by far the best way to train, indeed it is very neccesary. 

Some tips: 
1: Use a tapout system

2: Buy mats, headgear, mma gloves 

3: Usual rules at my school are no biting and no groin shots.


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## SmellyMonkey

hedgehogey said:
			
		

> Smellymonkey: You have the right idea. Training with a noncompliant partner is by far the best way to train, indeed it is very neccesary.
> 
> Some tips:
> 1: Use a tapout system
> 
> 2: Buy mats, headgear, mma gloves
> 
> 3: Usual rules at my school are no biting and no groin shots.


Hedge-

Are you a hapkidoist, or do you spar in another art?  If you do this type of sparring in hapkido, what techniques are allowed?  Finger locks and wrist locks?

Thanks for the reply.


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## hedgehogey

SmellyMonkey said:
			
		

> Hedge-
> 
> Are you a hapkidoist, or do you spar in another art? If you do this type of sparring in hapkido, what techniques are allowed? Finger locks and wrist locks?
> 
> Thanks for the reply.


 Neg, I do vale tudo/bjj/muay thai. Wrist locks are allowed, but finger locks, no. The reason is that usually a person doesn't notice a broken finger until after the fight's over! Adrenaline usually makes it so the technique is useless in  a fight AND likely to cause unintentional injury. Just not worth it.


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## iron_ox

Hello all,

Bruce and Kwan Jang Timmerman, Thanks for the kind words.

S.M.  Thank you for the PM, it was very nice for you to respond.  Feel free to drop by anytime that we have a listed class.  You show great resolve to stay with your master - that is commendable.  

Hapkido is claimed by many, known by some, taught by few.  

I have been very lucky to happen into the right people at the right time.  Anytime I can share that, I am more than happy to. 

S.M., continue to question and learn, a real teacher will withhold nothing, and answer all questions to their fullest, so remember that the only question that is "unworthy" is the one not asked.

Hope to meet you soon,

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor


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## howard

hedgehogey said:
			
		

> ...usually a person doesn't notice a broken finger until after the fight's over! Adrenaline usually makes it so the technique is useless in a fight AND likely to cause unintentional injury. Just not worth it.


i'd put this into a bit of context.  in an mma situation, the consideration of unintentional injury may be valid - i'd reckon it depends on the rules of the competition? (can't claim to be very familiar with mma competitions).  in a self-defense situation, why would you worry about injuring the fingers of somebody who attacked you, unless you are using unjustifiable force? (in other words, breaking a guy's fingers because he pushed you on the shoulder or in the chest would probably not be considered justifiable force in many US courts.)

allow me to take another perspective: in a self-defense situation, your techniques should have the capacity to inflict intentional injury, if the situation warrants it. you escalate to meet the level of force aimed at you.  if the attacker gets hurt, well, he asked for it, that's the way it goes, provided that you've used justifiable force given the threat you faced.

my experience has been that most hapkido people train for self-defense rather than for a rules-governed environment.  hence its abundance of nasty techniques.  fellow hapkidoists, any comments?

thanks, howard


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## iron_ox

Hello Howard,

Really very well said, training to a controlled and measured response is what Hapkido is all about; the worse the threat, the worse the response from Hapkido - 

My most common response in a certain situation is: "Officer, he just fell down, twice." LOL

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor


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## hedgehogey

howard said:
			
		

> i'd put this into a bit of context. in an mma situation, the consideration of unintentional injury may be valid - i'd reckon it depends on the rules of the competition? (can't claim to be very familiar with mma competitions). in a self-defense situation, why would you worry about injuring the fingers of somebody who attacked you, unless you are using unjustifiable force? (in other words, breaking a guy's fingers because he pushed you on the shoulder or in the chest would probably not be considered justifiable force in many US courts.)
> 
> allow me to take another perspective: in a self-defense situation, your techniques should have the capacity to inflict intentional injury, if the situation warrants it. you escalate to meet the level of force aimed at you. if the attacker gets hurt, well, he asked for it, that's the way it goes, provided that you've used justifiable force given the threat you faced.
> 
> my experience has been that most hapkido people train for self-defense rather than for a rules-governed environment. hence its abundance of nasty techniques. fellow hapkidoists, any comments?
> 
> thanks, howard


 You're missing the point. What i'm saying is that finger locks are not debilitating. 

 Many times a match will be played through where a fighter has a broken finger and he WON'T NOTICE IT. He'll keep fighting! 

 Many times wrestlers have gotten one or more fingers broken, tape their fingers up and keep wrestling! 

 It happened once while grappling with my mom. My mother is a small, frail woman, yet she didn't notice her big toe had been broken until after we were done!


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## howard

hedgehogey said:
			
		

> You're missing the point. What i'm saying is that finger locks are not debilitating.


as with most techniques, this is not an absolute. finger locks can be debilitating, especially on an average person. it depends on the recipient. in real situations (bar doors, etc.), i've seen them bring people to their knees long enough to permit another controlling technique (or strike) to be applied.

Many times a match will be played through where a fighter has a broken finger and he WON'T NOTICE IT. He'll keep fighting!

Many times wrestlers have gotten one or more fingers broken, tape their fingers up and keep wrestling![/QUOTE] 
what about hand fractures? have you ever seen a boxing match where a fighter broke his hand? i've seen plenty, and i can't recall a single one where the fighter was able to "suck it up and go" until the end of the fight. apparently there's simply too much pain involved. in most of these situations the fighter either tries to continue one-handed (usually losing the fight, of course) or throws in the towel.

It happened once while grappling with my mom. My mother is a small, frail woman, yet she didn't notice her big toe had been broken until after we were done![/QUOTE]


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## glad2bhere

This seems to be the cusp upon which we constantly find ourselves rocking back and forth. On the one hand we want to have our training be as realistic as possible, yet on the other hand most of us need to get up and go to work the next day. There is also the matter of age. By this I mean that the body naturally becomes less resiliant as one gets older such that injuries when they occur don't heal back the same way as when one is youthful. I suppose this is why you don't see a lot of boxers over the age of 40, yes? There is also the matter that injuries incurred when one is young have a nasty habit of coming back to nag us in later years. As I write this I think of the number of folks who have come to my classes and had to qualify their participation due to injuries sustained in HS Football or Wrestling. I have been very lucky in my Hapkido training to have sustained relatively few actual injuries, though this latest one to my Hamstring has been the most pesky. 

As far as "working through" an injury, I have mixed feelings. I understand that in an actual fight the victory can go to the person who keeps getting up, and I have a lot of respect for people with that sort of tenacity. However, I wonder at the wisdom of actually training in this fashion. From what I have been able to find, the life expectancy at the turn of the 19th century was about 50. Turn of this century we are up to 76. Centuries before it may have been as low as 30. My point is that if a person wants to train in a "go for broke" manner to raise the probability of winning a fight (in the rare chance a person will ever be in a fight) is it worth it to incurr an injury, say in ones' 20-s that they will have to deal with for the next 40 or 50 years? Thoughts? Comments? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## SmellyMonkey

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> This seems to be the cusp upon which we constantly find ourselves rocking back and forth. On the one hand we want to have our training be as realistic as possible, yet on the other hand most of us need to get up and go to work the next day. There is also the matter of age. By this I mean that the body naturally becomes less resiliant as one gets older such that injuries when they occur don't heal back the same way as when one is youthful. I suppose this is why you don't see a lot of boxers over the age of 40, yes? There is also the matter that injuries incurred when one is young have a nasty habit of coming back to nag us in later years. As I write this I think of the number of folks who have come to my classes and had to qualify their participation due to injuries sustained in HS Football or Wrestling. I have been very lucky in my Hapkido training to have sustained relatively few actual injuries, though this latest one to my Hamstring has been the most pesky.
> 
> As far as "working through" an injury, I have mixed feelings. I understand that in an actual fight the victory can go to the person who keeps getting up, and I have a lot of respect for people with that sort of tenacity. However, I wonder at the wisdom of actually training in this fashion.
> Best Wishes,
> 
> Bruce


I forgot about the whole age thing.  I am only 26 years old, yet already troubled with a neck injury from a head crank that was too hard, as well as shoulders that are easy to disclocate.  The neck injury has bugged me for over 6 months.  Never thought that I may have to live with that injury for the rest of my life!  Yikes.

I do believe a student of the martial arts has to practice some sort of realisitic fighting.  There is something about going against a determined opponent that can't be simulated another way.  It is easy for the martial artist to believe their fighting skills are better then they actually are, and it takes a few sparring sessions to show them how umbelieveable difficult it is to win in combat.  I remember the first time my sparring buddy got a great head shot on me, how SHOCKED I was.  It was hard for me to continue sparring after that, because I was no longer confident.  I needed to get used to the fact that I may get hit when fighting, no matter how good I believe my defense to be (at my beginning level.  ;-)  )

If anything, the few sparring sessions have taught me how much I DON'T want to get in a real fight.  I know it is common for new martial artists to learn a few skills and be overly confident in their abilities....and perhaps a bit more willing to fight in real life to see if the training works.  I was that way.  But not any longer!  It isn't fun to get hit with headgear on!  To get hit without headgear? No way!

You know what we need?  A robot training partner.  One that pulls all its punches, but can take everything you can dish out.  ;-)

Jeremy


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## glad2bhere

Well. I hope your are wrong about the neck thing. Spinal, knee and shoulder injuries seem to be the worst for hanging on especially the lower back. Hope yours gets better.  I had a student put some extra zeal into a nasty little wrist throw. My wrist was fine but I can feel a bit of something as I raise my arm. The rotators fine but there might have been a mild separation of the clavical. 

BTW: About that robot: We DO have such a thing--- its called a teacher. I am a strong advocate of getting out on the floor and TAKING  breakfalls for students. Yeah, I know---- most schools its the teacher that does all the throwing and the students are the ones that fall down. The benefits are that one gets to experience first-hand what the student is doing, and secondly its a goad for staying in shape. All of my teaching is participatory just for this reason, though, admittedly, sometimes I need to remember to pace myself, ya know?  :asian: 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## SmellyMonkey

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> BTW: About that robot: We DO have such a thing--- its called a teacher. I am a strong advocate of getting out on the floor and TAKING breakfalls for students. Yeah, I know---- most schools its the teacher that does all the throwing and the students are the ones that fall down. The benefits are that one gets to experience first-hand what the student is doing, and secondly its a goad for staying in shape. All of my teaching is participatory just for this reason, though, admittedly, sometimes I need to remember to pace myself, ya know? :asian:
> 
> Best Wishes,
> 
> Bruce


Kudos to you for letting your students throw you around!  That isn't something I am used to.  I have even more respect for you than I already have from reading your other comments in the foreum.

I still think the robot idea is a good one.  I want to know how much force it actually takes to dislocate the knee, ankle, shoulder, elbow, wrist, fingers, as well as the cervical joints.  Most of my human partners don't let me go that far!  

I've told my wife we should go to one of the many bums in our neighborhood and give them a few bottles of booze if they'll let my wife and I practice on them.   For some reason my wife doesn't like that idea...go figure.   

Jeremy


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## kwanjang

howard said:
			
		

> have you ever seen a boxing match where a fighter broke his hand? i've seen plenty, and i can't recall a single one where the fighter was able to "suck it up and go" until the end of the fight. apparently there's simply too much pain involved.


[/QUOTE]

I watched a brutal fight with Arturo Gatti (of Ward v/s Gatti fame) where Gatti broke his hand on the hip of his opponent and continued to win the fight mostly one handed.  Mind you, Gatti is in a class of his own when it comes to sucking up pain, and he usually looks as though he has gone through a meat grinder after his fights.


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## glad2bhere

Thats a new one for me. I can't even begin to imagine how one could break their hand on another persons' hip, I mean without doing serious damage to the other person. We're talking a SERIOUS "hip pointer", here. I have also wondered at the prevalence of eye sight issues resulting from repeated jarring of the head per detached retinas, broken blood vessels, and corneal abuse. Has anyone done any digging around about these? Thoughts? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## SmellyMonkey

kwanjang said:
			
		

> I watched a brutal fight with Arturo Gatti (of Ward v/s Gatti fame) where Gatti broke his hand on the hip of his opponent and continued to win the fight mostly one handed. Mind you, Gatti is in a class of his own when it comes to sucking up pain, and he usually looks as though he has gone through a meat grinder after his fights.


You know, this reminds me about how punches to the face often end up with a broken fist in a self-defense situation. I read on the defend university website that you should punch the soft parts of your attacker, and palm-heel strike or hammerfist the hard parts.

That makes perfect sense...yet in my school we practice punching to the face every day.

Does anyone teach open hand strikes to face, punches to body in their hapkido schools?


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## SmellyMonkey

Here is the article on Defend University.

http://www.defendu.com/hand_break.htm


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## howard

SmellyMonkey said:
			
		

> Does anyone teach open hand strikes to face, punches to body in their hapkido schools?


yes, we teach a number of strikes besides the western boxing closed-fist strike to all targets.  in fact, we don't train in using the closed-fist strike much at all, although we train in defending against it a lot.

in self defense training we use sudo strikes, palm heels, hammerfists, one-knuckle strikes (second knuckle on the middle finger), backfists and backslips, c strikes to the throat, ridgehand strikes to vulnerable areas, and on and on...  but as i say, very rarely do we train to use the western boxing style strike.

some practitioners of other arts seem to have the idea that us hapkido guys only know wrist locks.  i think that in a real fight, you'll need a loosening-up strike to create the opening for any locking technique, so i train that way.  imagine trying to catch a punch and throw a wrist lock on the attacker immediately - pretty low chance of success.


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## kwanjang

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> Thats a new one for me. I can't even begin to imagine how one could break their hand on another persons' hip, I mean without doing serious damage to the other person. We're talking a SERIOUS "hip pointer", here. I have also wondered at the prevalence of eye sight issues resulting from repeated jarring of the head per detached retinas, broken blood vessels, and corneal abuse. Has anyone done any digging around about these? Thoughts?
> 
> Best Wishes,
> 
> Bruce



Hello Bruce, I saw it happen.  Gatti is well known for low blows, and he had in fact been warned a number of times for it.  This time, it came back to haunt him as he has had problems with it every now and then even when taped to the hilt.  

Lots of injuries like those you mention.  Sugar Ray Leonard had a detached retina and had to quit for a while.  Several others whose names don't come to me right off also have had such problems, and then there is Ali and his condition that was attributed to too many rope a dope blows.

If you want to see blood and guts though, you need to see the Ward v/s Gatti fights... Unbelievable courage (and maybe a bit of stupidity.


Regarding hand strikes:  We use the whole gamut of strikes, but I personally prefer the palm strike.  For one thing, I can instantly grab with the hand already open.  FWIW, these days I don't advocate hitting the face with the hand.  Too easy to cut your hand on teeth, and too easy to cause bleeding.  The two just don't mix in these days of aids etc.


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## MichiganTKD

Attacking the hard parts of the body with a palm strike or knife hand and the soft parts with a fist is a principle of Tae Kyon training, and something I teach students to minimize injuries.
 Several years ago, my Instructor was watching me practice punching a tree with a ridgehand, and told me not to do that. He introduced me to the hard-soft soft-hard principle by telling me to use palm strikes, knife hands, and other soft techniques against a hard surface. Something I still teach students, whether punching, kicking, or blocking.


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## glad2bhere

Good points. 

There is another side to this as well. 

Consider that a great many people who are involved in the sorts of encounters we are talking about are of good size, robust, seasoned to combat and compete with an eye towards getting off the mat (in whatever condition).  Would people use the same approach were the circumstances a bit more lethal? Maybe I am stretching things by modern standards but work with me for a second. 

Most of what we are describing here is tenacity born of competition. The idea in competition is to perform for a set period of time and so demonstrate ones' technical ability over another. In this way the concept of endurance, tenacity and perserverance are very different from, say, a battlefield. As I write this my military experience many years ago comes to mind. It was not, for instance, uncommon for new replacements to die in greater numbers before seasoned troops. This was not a matter of conditioning (as they had just come from the States), nor a matter of equipment (as we were all furnished in comparable manner). When such deathes occurred it was chalked up to being a "newbie" or a "nug", which was a terse but accurate way of stating that the person had not had sufficient time in-country to "get his head around" what everything was about. "Newbies" made decisions and drew conclusions based on the most general (and often inaccurate information). Actual combat was radically different. For those who haven't the foggiest idea what I am talking about, the movie "PLATOON" did a pretty decent job of portraying this issue in the first hour of the flick. What made matters worse was that older troops, yes, including me, would often distance themselves from "nugs" so as to avoid the emotional damage that comes from connecting with someone and then losing them as a casualty. 

By now you are probably thinking that ol' Bruce has "gone around the bend". But the reason I raise this is that we often state that we train in "martial arts" and then use what I would call "civil arts" to make our points. When this happens I think we do our traditions a disservice. In actual warfare one does not engage the enemy with the idea of seeing how many accurate shells or rifle shots one can put in a given area. The idea is that one "stops the conflict" and usually by eliminating the stranger on the other patch of ground. The matter of size, conditioning, fist-fights or background may be influential but not determinant. When I think of these things I often remeber that old saw about the maker of the Colt revolver much known in the American West. The saying went that "God made men; Samual Colt made them all equal." I am wondering if we took away the idea of a person living through an encounter and elected instead to train as though one had accepted their own death (Cit: Code of the Samurai; Cleary) I wonder how different our training would be. Afterall isn't this the way the warriors who came before us trained?  FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## SmellyMonkey

Bruce-


I can see that something caused your mind to really take off and ponder something very deep....however I am having trouble understanding exactly what point you are trying to make.  (Sometimes I am not very smart- bear with me!)

Could you summarize what you were trying to say?  

Thanks!

Jeremy


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## glad2bhere

Dear jeremy: 

Thanks. Even after I read that post it still wasn't saying things exactly. How about this? 

We are talking about what are essentially "civil"/"sport" encounters. We are talking about how to hit and how to kick and all of this comes under the aegis of rules and sportsmanship (as such). However, we identify what we train in as "martial art" rather than "civil art".  Were one to represent themselves as following a "martial" path it would seem to me that one would train as though they were going to a battlefield rather than a boxing gym. I must tell you that this is a very different kind of training. Imagine bumping the original Takeda Sokaku of DRAJJ up against the Ueyshiba (of later years) and I think it makes an accurate comparison of what I am working to say.

If we are to talk about "civil arts" and "sports" it follows that the bigger, faster, stronger adept will probably win out over the smaller adept with comparable skills. To me this is pretty much a no-brainer. So people beat on each other for a while and get things out of their system. Please understand I am not disparaging this activity if this is what people want to do. But the heritage of the "martial arts" is one of military applications not civilian and I am wondering if we are confusing things by using "civilian" activities to characterize "military" activities. The reason I brought up my experience in Vietnam was that I think the mistake of assuming things about what a military experience will be like by overlaying a civilian mindset on it was( at least in that example) fraught with peril. In Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido, for instance, we don't make a big thing about teaching children, recreating, or competing. Maybe the weapons that we use are old-fashioned but the fact is that we train in a MARTIAL art and not a CIVILIAN art. Hope this helps. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## SmellyMonkey

Ahhh, that's better. Now I understand your point. Thanks for clarifying.



It is my goal to have my training be as "martial" as possible, with less emphasis on the "art". And to completely get away from the sport aspect of martial arts, such as point sparring. 



But, how do we practice being a martial artist and train the mind for actual combat, unless we simulate the combat as realistically as possible? And reduce the chance of injury?



I don't believe training on a compliant partner has programmed my brain efficiently for real combat. I don't think I am a stupid guy. I pick up new techniques fairly quickly. I try to learn "why" the technique works, not just "how" to perform the technique. And I practice the techniques outside of class. At my level in my school, I am doing pretty well.



However, the other day my sparring partner and I practiced a situation where the attacker closed the gap quickly, grabbed the defender, and pulled or pushed the attacker. And I have to admit, I performed extremely poorly during this drill. 



My brain was not used to this type of stimulus. It simply shut down.



Again, I am a beginner with only 1.5 years of training. But that is 1.5 years of training, 4 hours a week average...let's do the math. 78 weeks x 4 hours per week = 312 simulated combat hours. That has to be more then the average person on the street. Much more training then most criminals get. Heck, that is more hand to hand combat practice then most police officers get before they start their careers!



Yet my brain is still not wired to respond automatically to a basic attack.



So I have to ask. Is there something wrong with the way traditional martial arts are taught, if the goal is to teach the students how to fight? 



Let's take my school and my experience with it out of the picture. Also, let's assume that I am not a complete idiot. 



Look at your own schools. Is combat simulated in a way that will teach the brain to respond automatically in a stressful situation? 



Also, is this "stressful" training given to new students? If not, why not? If not, is that fair to the beginning student, if the student is taking martial arts for self-defense?



Thanks in advance for your thoughts,

Jeremy


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## glad2bhere

Dear Jeremy: 

As many "straightlines" as you gave me in your last post I should be sending you a stipend, yes? Needless to say these are all great--- and weighty--- questions I think we all face. I'd be writing a book if I tried to answer all of these points--- good as they are---- but here are a couple that I toss your way just fer s***s-and-grins, 'kay? 

I don't think that a person needs to actually fight a full-contact training regimine to develop a "martial spirit". Some gun-fighter from the old West (Wyatt Earp?) once said, "you don't have to be fast, just accurate." I hear the same sort of things in Hapkido training. For instance, it doesn't take a lot to jam your index finger INTO a persons' eye, but how many train with the idea that they are committed to doing just that? Most of our throws and jointlocks originally started as breaks but how many would have the moxie to actually execute the break? Most people would back off of an eardrum break, elbow to the base of the skull and heel-stomps to recumbant attackers.  The same goes for weapons work. We don't mind swinging a sword around, but get us in paired work with live blades and its amazing the response. "Holy S***!! Someone could actually get hurt here!!"

Now stepping away from the blood-thirsty stuff, consider that most folks leave their "martial" training in the dochang. A warrior is a warrior 24/7. That doesn't mean I cleave the guy who over-charges for gas in two with a wol-do. What it means is that Integrity, Dedication, Development and Service permeate everything we do, and if all is well with our deportment the "Hwa" is better balanced for our being around. I know we like to make a big thing about competition cuz its about as close as most people come to combat in their lives. The fact is, though, that we say we follow "martial" arts and then only perform the most superficial and physical part of the subject. For my part, if a person says they are going to follow a Warriors' Path that means that all the chips are on the line--- on a daily basis. Is this so different from when, say, a Christian says they are putting everything on the line for their "soul", or for their "faith"?  FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## hedgehogey

Smellymonkey: You've got it completely right. Static training will not lead to self defense ability. 

I strongly encourage you to read the "what is aliveness" section on www.straightblastgym.com


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## glad2bhere

Yep! And just so people don't think I am advocating sitting on a pillow somewhere communing with the Cosmos, let me underscore that what I am talking about is not WHAT kind of training that you do but HOW you do it. I can do all the full-contact I want, but if in my mind I am seeing it as some sort of elaborate game I would be no better prepped for real combat than had I simply read books on the subject. Real battles may be fought with the body, but are won between the ears!

BTW: To Jeremy: Just so you know--- you really don't want to "react automatically" to a situation. People make a lot of it but the fact is that you WANT you mind in the loop. Acting--- seeing clearly what needs to be done and doing it---- takes place with the whole being. And there is nothing "automatic" about it. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## SmellyMonkey

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> Yep! And just so people don't think I am advocating sitting on a pillow somewhere communing with the Cosmos, let me underscore that what I am talking about is not WHAT kind of training that you do but HOW you do it. I can do all the full-contact I want, but if in my mind I am seeing it as some sort of elaborate game I would be no better prepped for real combat than had I simply read books on the subject. Real battles may be fought with the body, but are won between the ears!
> 
> BTW: To Jeremy: Just so you know--- you really don't want to "react automatically" to a situation. People make a lot of it but the fact is that you WANT you mind in the loop. Acting--- seeing clearly what needs to be done and doing it---- takes place with the whole being. And there is nothing "automatic" about it. FWIW.
> 
> Best Wishes,
> 
> Bruce


Actually, the thought of you sitting on a pillow saying "ohmmmm" is kind of funny...  

Yes, I do want my brain on to a degree.  So I can say "does he have a weapon?  is breaking the joint reasonable in this situation?  are his buddies around?  should I whip out my folder and finish him?"

But I want the INITIAL response to be automatic.  For example, if I get grabbed, I want to at least take his balance away automatically, thereby giving me enough time to ask all the questions above before the guy begins stabbing me repeatedly!  

We need to practice training these basics.  Drills where the defender knows a general attack is coming (push, pull, grab), and is forced to own the attacker's balance ASAP.  Later on in training, we can practice additional techniques AFTER we get the balance.  

Does that make sense?  

Anyway, I'm getting frustrated.  Not due to anyone's postings, just due to my feeling of being a complete newbie who has not yet mastered these basics.


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## glad2bhere

"......But I want the INITIAL response to be automatic. For example, if I get grabbed, I want to at least take his balance away automatically, thereby giving me enough time to ask all the questions above before the guy begins stabbing me repeatedly! 

We need to practice training these basics. Drills where the defender knows a general attack is coming (push, pull, grab), and is forced to own the attacker's balance ASAP. Later on in training, we can practice additional techniques AFTER we get the balance. 

Does that make sense?....." 

Yes-- PERFECT sense. This is exactly what a person would ordinarily be training for, even at the most basic levels. Later a more conscious effort to identify and quantify this part of the execution comes along, say somewhere between 5th and 2nd Guep someplace.  And you are right not to want to have the sort of knee-jerk reaction like that Peter Sellers character in THE PINK PANTHER who is always being ambushed by his butler/valet. The balance "taking" AKA "balance breaking" is a pivotal part of Hapkido. Joe Connollys' (Skokie, Ill) routinely start their classes with a variety of unbalancing drills. I don't go quite THAT far but I do harp on my students to make sure that taking the balance is part&parcel of execution.  For myself, where I begin to have concerns is when we are doing simple introductory (Level One) material and pressure on the throat or a pull on the elbow is required and the student balks for fear of injuring their partner. On the one hand I applaud their conscientious attitude in respecting their partner, but on the other hand I have to give them a "goose" (figuratively) to get them to use some authority in what they are doing. Meaning no disrespect to Aikido-ka lurking in the background, but I don't want my students falling down over nothing if you know what I mean. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## SmellyMonkey

I hope others are still interested in this conversation, because I still am...


Okay.  A few posts back I asked the question, how do different HAPKIDO schools add stress to the training?  

My goal for adding stress it to get used to performing techniques under high stress, to gain some confidence that I will not freeze in a real self defense situation.

I am not only looking for answers like "controlled full contact sparring".  We've already discussed the pro's and con's of full contact hapkido training.  I'm looking for other ways of adding stress too.

Anyone have answers to my question?

Thanks!

Jeremy


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## iron_ox

Hello Jeremy,

Without trying to sound too artsy-fartsy, the art is what prepares you for combat.  Techniques should prepare your body, the art prepares the mind for combat.

You had mentioned that in a certain situation, your mind "shut-down", this I have found is due to lack of training in a technique to real (and "mindless") repetition, once this is done, the body will react, allowing the brain to change gears and catch up.

At my school, we use repetition and visualization - your partner is an attacker, not "your classmate" - try that and see how you fare.

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor


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## SmellyMonkey

iron_ox said:
			
		

> Hello Jeremy,
> 
> Without trying to sound too artsy-fartsy, the art is what prepares you for combat. Techniques should prepare your body, the art prepares the mind for combat.
> 
> You had mentioned that in a certain situation, your mind "shut-down", this I have found is due to lack of training in a technique to real (and "mindless") repetition, once this is done, the body will react, allowing the brain to change gears and catch up.
> 
> At my school, we use repetition and visualization - your partner is an attacker, not "your classmate" - try that and see how you fare.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Kevin Sogor


 I agree with you that that repetiton helps program specific movements into your brain. As I am sure we all experienced, it is best to learn new martial arts techniques slowly. After we have taught the muscles to perform the technique slowly, we can gradually increase the speed of the movement until we can perform the technique at a fast speed, while still keeping good form.

 However, I don't believe being able to perform a technique in an unstressed environment means you could perform the technique in a real fight.

 Thankfully, I haven't been in a real fight. So I don't know this for sure.  But hang with me, and let me use what I have learned from music.

 As a kid, I found that I was a gifted violinist. I practiced hard and frequently. After months of praciticing a piece of music, I got to the point where I could play the song perfectly without the sheet music. I had "mastered" the music.

 But when I performed the music in a competition or audition (high-stress), I would shake like a leaf and struggle to make it through the music I had mastered. My best performance in a high stress sitituation was never as good as my best practice session in a low-stress. 

 That is, until I had performed in enough high stress environments that I learned to cope with the added stress hormones. What happened was I "normalized" my brain to the additional stress hormones. After a few years, I would find that I could perform a peice better when I was extremely stressed. In fact, I thrived on stress.

 So I believe firmly that stress must be added to ones martial arts training if they wish to perform in a high stress situtation. 

 Read this article for more information. (I really like this site, as this is the second link to defend university I have used in this thread.)
http://www.defendu.com/sst.htm

  Thanks,
  Jeremy


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## howard

excellent discussion, lots of good points... would just add in response to the posts about taking the attacker's balance that that is the key to hapkido... that is the "hapki", just as it's the "aiki" in aikijujutsu.  it's what makes it possible to apply techniques with very little force.  it's central to all of our techniques.  if you fail to take his balance away, you can easily end up in a strength contest, which is exactly what you want to avoid.


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