# When did the truth become a bad thing?



## celtic_crippler (Jan 10, 2010)

What does it say about a people who expect apologies for honesty; who find the truth offensive?


----------



## Tez3 (Jan 10, 2010)

celtic_crippler said:


> What does it say about a people who expect apologies for honesty; who find the truth offensive?


 
Perhaps though they don't see it as truth? To the National Front here the truth to them is that Hitler is a hero, my truth is that he's not. 

I think you may be in for a long discussion on exactly what is truth?


----------



## girlbug2 (Jan 10, 2010)

I would think it says that these people are in some sort of denial or fear. In the case of government, suppression of opposition is a hallmark of fascists.


----------



## celtic_crippler (Jan 10, 2010)

"Truth" is to a degree relative and subject to change over time.  

I'm speaking to widely accepted facts. Perhaps later in thread I will present the actual event that prompted me to ask the question. 

It seems to me, upon reflection, that Westerners have become so superficial that what is "real" and "true" are things simply not to be cherished or respected.


----------



## Big Don (Jan 10, 2010)

celtic_crippler said:


> What does it say about a people who expect apologies for honesty; who find the truth offensive?


It doesn't say anything good. Political Correctness is now, for some, more important than truth.
I hear "That isn't nice" a dozen times a day, each time I reply, "No, but, honest isn't always pleasant."


----------



## celtic_crippler (Jan 10, 2010)

Big Don said:


> "No, but, honest isn't always pleasant."


 
No it's not, but if you choose to ignore the truth then how can one address an issue and improve upon it? 

Being PC is harmful and counter productive to improvement. 

Take an alcoholic for instance. If they never recognize their problem and admit to it, then they can not feasiblely take any steps to correcting it now can they?


----------



## Ken Morgan (Jan 10, 2010)

All the worlds religions have all the spiritial and scientific answers you'll ever want. God exists, Jesus was his son, the earth was created 10, 000 years ago...etc, etc....

To millions this is the truth, these are facts as they see it.

To those of us who really know the truth/facts, its all superstious nonsense.

CC what facts specifically are you addressing?

Depending on the "facts", depending on the situation, you lie about them or ignore them, because they are not worth arguing about.


----------



## celtic_crippler (Jan 10, 2010)

Ken Morgan said:


> All the worlds religions have all the spiritial and scientific answers you'll ever want. God exists, Jesus was his son, the earth was created 10, 000 years ago...etc, etc....
> 
> To millions this is the truth, these are facts as they see it.
> 
> ...


 
I don't really want to cite the particular instance that prompted this at this point because I want to see unbiased replies and discussion on the topic. 

I will say, interestingly enough, that the instance had nothing to do with religion. 

I do think that Westerner's fascination with "appearences" seems to have contributed to the "death of truth." 

Image seems to be of paramount importance any more; many blame MTV for the shallowness of this current trait. For example: Christopher Cross was the most popular pop artist at the time when MTV went to air. Once people saw his videos his popularity began to diminish and eventually nobody knew who the heck this guy even was. 

It seems to me that "appearences" and "Political Correctness" have become more important that the "truth" in Western society.


----------



## Jenny_in_Chico (Jan 10, 2010)

Crip, every person alive is walking around in a universe of their own creation. Everything they believe to be true is filtered through their own unique set of experiences and their own personal perspective. Therefore, it isn't as useful to discuss the abstract concept of "truth" as it is to discuss particular items that can be demonstrated to be "facts". And unless you are talking the hard sciences, even facts are open to interpretation.


----------



## Carol (Jan 11, 2010)

celtic_crippler said:


> No it's not, but if you choose to ignore the truth then how can one address an issue and improve upon it?
> 
> Being PC is harmful and counter productive to improvement.
> 
> Take an alcoholic for instance. If they never recognize their problem and admit to it, then they can not feasiblely take any steps to correcting it now can they?



Interesting topic!  

A colleague of mine and I were just talking about something very similar.  

In a work environment, person A can tell Person B that something can't be done, and do so in a professional manner.  But what if Person A uttered profanity when turning down person B?  Depending on how it was done, it could be barely noticeable, or it could be construed as a threat.  "No, we bleeping can't do this and I'm going to bleep you if you ask again" is not acceptable dialogue in most professional environments, even if it is the truth. 

If my doc says something like "You are over weight and your blood pressure is too high," usually a comment like that is dovetailed with a discussion about options the patient has to make a positive change.  (Start exercising, see a nutritionist, prescription meds, etc).  Likerewise if one person says to their significant other "You need to lose weight" but follows that on with "Maybe we can start going to the gym together" or "How about if we both join Weight Watchers?" then that shows that the person giving the critique is willing to help the subject in fixing the issue.

However, if someone says "You're fat" or "You're a lazy slob", the purpose is likely personal insult, and not constructive criticism.  That's generally not something that a person would say if they are offering to help the subject fix the issue.

Intent matters (even if it is perceived).  In general I think using good manners and/or professionalism can go along way to avoiding misunderstandings.


----------



## punisher73 (Jan 11, 2010)

I agree.  

Working in LE, I don't know how many times that because I have to tell someone that they can't do something that "I'm rude" and wrong for telling them.  Last example that comes to mind, I see someone pull up at a school in a marked fire lane (in fact, he parked RIGHT in front of the sign that said no parking) he exits his vehilce smoking a cigarette (which in Michigan is also a no-no during school hours).  Before I can talk to him, he throws said cigarette butt on the ground and starts to walk away.  I politely tell him that he is parked illegally and needs to park somewhere else.  I also let him know that since he is on school property he can't smoke and I also asked him to pick up his trash.  I asked him as politely as I could and did not raise my voice.  I had other witnesses that were amazed that I was as polite as I was.  Anyways, after I tell/ask him that he starts going off on why did I have to be so rude?  Huh?  

Apparantely when you ask people to do things that they don't want to do, it is now rude and people should be able to go about their business unobstructed.

I won't get into "facts" that support ALOT of things, but aren't PC to talk about without getting labeled.


----------



## Ken Morgan (Jan 11, 2010)

punisher73 said:


> I agree.
> 
> Working in LE, I don't know how many times that because I have to tell someone that they can't do something that "I'm rude" and wrong for telling them. Last example that comes to mind, I see someone pull up at a school in a marked fire lane (in fact, he parked RIGHT in front of the sign that said no parking) he exits his vehilce smoking a cigarette (which in Michigan is also a no-no during school hours). Before I can talk to him, he throws said cigarette butt on the ground and starts to walk away. I politely tell him that he is parked illegally and needs to park somewhere else. I also let him know that since he is on school property he can't smoke and I also asked him to pick up his trash. I asked him as politely as I could and did not raise my voice. I had other witnesses that were amazed that I was as polite as I was. Anyways, after I tell/ask him that he starts going off on why did I have to be so rude? Huh?
> 
> ...


 

Some people simply don't like it when you point out to them their "wrong" behaviour. Just the same as pointing out when someone is being rude. Even when you try and be extra polite to let them save face, they take it as offensive.

It's like no one wants to admit when they're wrong, when they made an error in judgement.

A little humility in the human race would go a long way to make the world a better place.


----------



## celtic_crippler (Jan 11, 2010)

Here's what prompted my question and my reply to what I think about it. 

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=83764

Punisher, your post falls right in line to a degree. 

People are quick to become defensive. It seems the majority have become so hypersensitive that it doesn't matter what your demeanor is or how you say something. It's like we've become a nation of emotionally retarded, immature a-holes.


----------



## chaos1551 (Jan 11, 2010)

When approaching a shared reality with someone else, truth is very subjective.  Even facts can be interpreted differently.  

There is, however, an underlying truth in humanity.  It resides in our thoughts.  Miyamoto Mushashi wrote of it: do not think dishonestly.

When we lie to ourselves, there will never be a shared reality and any form of truth is lost.

To interpret facts differently and arrive at different conclusions is a form of painful but necessary growth.  To be liberal or conservative is to see the world from a different point of view.  But when we start lying to ourselves about what we think or thought, suddenly it's never our fault and our behavior is entitled and the other guy is always wrong.  Most people don't realize how important Musashi's advice is.  Musashi didn't write to think honestly, he wrote:

Do not think dishonestly.

If we all truly did so, our lifes' experiences would create a much better filter to perceive events through.


----------



## CoryKS (Jan 11, 2010)

"The map is not the terrain."  Everybody walks around with an idea in their head of what is truth and what is not.  Some are closer in some situations but may be wildly errant in others.  IMHO, one's happiness will generally be in proportion to how closely their map resembles the terrain, even when it comes to unpleasant truths.  Being confronted with opposing facts can be frustrating and painful.  Some may respond with embracing the new data, others may respond with "La La La Can't hear you, I demand an apology."


----------



## Ken Morgan (Jan 11, 2010)

I don&#8217;t think many purposely go out to deceive themselves in their thoughts. Everyone&#8217;s frame of reference however is different; as we have all has different upbringings, educations, relationships etc, etc.

Conservative and Liberal are also very, very relevant terms, and I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s a good idea to pigeonhole yourself from any such perspective. 

I consider myself a &#8220;Conservative&#8221;, but I know I share many similar beliefs with many who consider themselves to be &#8220;Liberals&#8221;. In fact I know many liberals who are more conservative then I. Likewise some conservatives and liberals scare the hell out of me!! 

Instead of &#8220;not thinking dishonestly&#8221; as Mushashi suggests, perhaps, &#8220;acting honestly with the best of intentions&#8221; may be the best route to take? You&#8217;re still going to be wrong many times, you&#8217;re still going to piss people off, but at least you &#8220;acted&#8221; with honest intent.


----------



## celtic_crippler (Jan 11, 2010)

I don't know...

I think many's common state is denial any more. The West has become so superficial nobody wants to admit that they're not what they think they are or accept something as true if it presents a danger to their fragile ego. 

Having different perspectives is one thing, denying something that is known to be true is different. 

From my perspective fried chicken is delicious. You may hate it. What's true in that context is based on perspective but only to a degree. It's true that I like fried chicken. It's true that you don't. What's not true is that fried chicken is delicious because that is subject to individual perspective and taste. Fried chicken is a food source; however, and regardless of whether you like it or not that is true. You can eat it and it will supply you with certain nutrients and calories needed to survive. 

Let's now suppose you hated fried chicken so much that you started a propaganda campaign to make it illegal... attempting to convince everybody that fried chicken is evil! It clogs your arteries and causes heart diseise! You get medical studies and scientific proof backing your view. People shouldn't eat fried chicken! Would that be truth? To you, maybe... but not me, I love fried chicken and think it's deliciousness outweighs any health concerns if eaten in moderation. Even though you introduced new variables (health issues) it doesn't change the fact that fried chicken is still a food source. You may even succeed in getting it outlawed, but it's still a food source.


----------



## CoryKS (Jan 11, 2010)

celtic_crippler said:


> I think many's common state is denial any more. *The West* has become so superficial nobody wants to admit that they're not what they think they are or accept something as true if it presents a danger to their fragile ego.


 
Let me preface by saying that I agree with the majority of your post.  Didn't want you to think I was disregarding the rest, just wondered what prompted you to phrase it this way.  Is there some reason why you think this state is exclusive to, or predominantly found in, "The West"?  Is it your belief that non-western cultures are less susceptible to this, and what do you base that upon?  Sorry, it's a pet peeve of mine when people attribute to the West traits that I would consider universal human failings.  I can think of at least one non-Western culture that is so deeply in denial about its stature in this world that it readily responds with murder when its worldview is challenged.


----------



## Steve (Jan 11, 2010)

There are truths and there are facts.  Truths can be facts, but as often as not are simply one person's opinion.  So, if your "truth" isn't a fact, but is instead your opinion, it stands to reason that some people will disagree and believe that it's a bad thing.  Others will agree and denounce any disagreement as political correctness.

Taking this a bit further, even where facts are involved, there is rude and there is polite.  These are subjective, but you can convey facts without tact.  Whether you are factual or not has nothing to do with whether you are a dick or not.  You can be both... or neither.

Finally, there is appropriate and inappropriate.  In a professional environment, swearing at a coworker is inappropriate.  Being professional has nothing to do with political correctness nor with being factual or truthful.


----------



## Tez3 (Jan 11, 2010)

Ah the West! Is it a truth then that all the West is infected with the malaise spoken about here? I think not so it would probably be more useful to speak about one's own country only rather than others, in the interests of truth of course.


----------



## CoryKS (Jan 11, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> Ah the West! Is it a truth then that all the West is infected with the malaise spoken about here? I think not so it would probably be more useful to speak about one's own country only rather than others, in the interests of truth of course.


 
Ah, but then I would have to take issue with painting the entire country with that brush.  Perhaps we should push it down to the state level.  Unless there are any Georgians who dispute CC's truth, and then we'll have to assume it's a county thang.


----------



## celtic_crippler (Jan 11, 2010)

CoryKS said:


> Let me preface by saying that I agree with the majority of your post. Didn't want you to think I was disregarding the rest, just wondered what prompted you to phrase it this way. Is there some reason why you think this state is exclusive to, or predominantly found in, "The West"? Is it your belief that non-western cultures are less susceptible to this, and what do you base that upon? Sorry, it's a pet peeve of mine when people attribute to the West traits that I would consider universal human failings. I can think of at least one non-Western culture that is so deeply in denial about its stature in this world that it readily responds with murder when its worldview is challenged.


 
I have no experience or real knowledge of any other cultures in this regard so I don't speak to it. I can't read or speak any Eastern languages so I can't be certain.  

I do have to admit, on the surface, after watching Japanese programming that one might interpret their culture to be somewhat superficial, so you may have me there...

It seems to me that most "Western" countries suffer from the "MTV" influence of being superficial moreso than others. I will admit that from my "perspective" the US seems to be the worst by far... especially evidenced by the current Entitlement Generation. 

I would be very surprised if someone like Susan Boyle could win 'American Idol'... the UK gets props for that, but you can't deny that the Brits put a lot of importance on "appearances". 

Now back to our regularly scheduled topic... 



stevebjj said:


> There are truths and there are facts. Truths can be facts, but as often as not are simply one person's opinion. So, if your "truth" isn't a fact, but is instead your opinion, it stands to reason that some people will disagree and believe that it's a bad thing. Others will agree and denounce any disagreement as political correctness.
> 
> Taking this a bit further, even where facts are involved, there is rude and there is polite. These are subjective, but you can convey facts without tact. Whether you are factual or not has nothing to do with whether you are a dick or not. You can be both... or neither.
> 
> Finally, there is appropriate and inappropriate. In a professional environment, swearing at a coworker is inappropriate. Being professional has nothing to do with political correctness nor with being factual or truthful.


 
I bet go differ. A message can be very professional, tactful, and diplomatic and one could still be offended regardless of whether it rings true or not. 

One could follow all the rules of professional communication taught in Business Communication 200 and someone would still say you were rude if they found the truth of the message distasteful. I've seen happen (especially when I tell folks they need to take comp time in order to avoid being paid over time.) :angel:


----------



## Carol (Jan 11, 2010)

celtic_crippler said:


> I bet go differ. A message can be very professional, tactful, and diplomatic and one could still be offended regardless of whether it rings true or not.
> 
> One could follow all the rules of professional communication taught in Business Communication 200 and someone would still say you were rude if they found the truth of the message distasteful. I've seen happen (especially when I tell folks they need to take comp time in order to avoid being paid over time.) :angel:



But that again gets in to an issue of professionalism.  If the manager has communicated a situation to the best of their ability, then it is the report's responsibility to also bear a standard in professionalism.  

If you were announcing bad news like pay cuts, I think its natural to assume that your reports will be upset.  However, if you're giving notice for routine payroll issues, then its really on the report to communicate in a professional manner.  Doesn't always happen, humans being what they are (silly humans!) and when working with others, sometimes you have to pick your fights.  :lol:


----------



## celtic_crippler (Jan 11, 2010)

Carol said:


> But that again gets in to an issue of professionalism. If the manager has communicated a situation to the best of their ability, then it is the report's responsibility to also bear a standard in professionalism.
> 
> If you were announcing bad news like pay cuts, I think its natural to assume that your reports will be upset. However, if you're giving notice for routine payroll issues, then its really on the report to communicate in a professional manner. Doesn't always happen, humans being what they are (silly humans!) and when working with others, sometimes you have to pick your fights. :lol:


 
True. 

But that leads us back to the question. 



			
				CC the Honest said:
			
		

> What does it say about a people who expect apologies for honesty; who find the truth offensive?


 
Arw you saying that being unprofessional is a trait shared by those who find the truth offensive?


----------



## Tez3 (Jan 11, 2010)

So which Brits then? Do we care about superficial appearances, not particularly. Do we care about how people behave, whether they have good manners, do they have hysterics and over react, well yes we do. We like people to be calm, polite and not in your face. We like good manners and politeness and there is a remarkable amount of it still around. 
If you mean we like to keep up appearances as in not running around like headless chickens when things go ever so slightly wrong or we don't go shooting our mouths off about things which are personal like religion, our choice of contraception or whether or not we have abortions, you are correct. We keep up appearances when all is going to hell in a hand cart, we try to behave with decorum rather than weeping and wailing everywhere. We will say under the most dreadful conditions 'well it could be worse' because dammit it could be.
No we don't run off to the dentist to have our teeth fixed and whitened so it looks like a graveyard full of shiny tombstones in our mouths everytime we open our mouths. We have our fashions, which are copied in a lot of places, we may complain about our countries (yes countries, we have a few of them) but we also have sheer class. :ultracool

Don't judge us by yourselves, in fact don't judge us at all or any other country for that matter, speak for your own, praise it or damn it up to you but leave the rest of the world out of it. You can't judge a country like Japan, you know, merely from it's television shows. 

Cory, I meant making such sweeping statements as the 'west' is meaningless, people should only speak of countries they know and I doubt many Americans have actually been to Georgia (the original one, you know, in Europe).


----------



## Steve (Jan 11, 2010)

> I bet go differ. A message can be very professional, tactful, and diplomatic and one could still be offended regardless of whether it rings true or not.
> 
> One could follow all the rules of professional communication taught in Business Communication 200 and someone would still say you were rude if they found the truth of the message distasteful. I've seen happen (especially when I tell folks they need to take comp time in order to avoid being paid over time.) :angel:


This is true, but now you're straying into the area of leadership and personnel management, which is a larger subject that encompasses a little of "truth", courtesy and professionalism.  

A couple of things come to mind.  First, you can be professional but you can't guarantee that the person with whom you are dealing will also be professional.  You can't ultimately control anyone's feelings, although you can do a lot to stack the deck in your favor.  What I mean is, as a manager, to be successful you have to manage behavior not intent.  There are all the reasons in the world for something to fail or succeed, and the worst rookie mistake a manager will make is to try to manage these reasons.  In the same way, ultimately, you can't manage feelings, so in some cases all you can do is set clear expectations and be professional.  So, in your case, ultimately, if you're polite, professional and have a healthy working relationship with your employees, it should be enough to set a clear expectation that Comp is to be worked in lieu of OT.  In short, worrying overly much about whether someone likes your message is self defeating and really only makes your job harder.

But going along with this, nothing happens in a vacuum.  The most successful managers are the ones who take the time to establish relationships and a genuine rapport.  If I have a relationship with you, you will tend to give me the benefit of the doubt as your manager.  So, when I tell you that there's no OT and you need to work comp, you don't take it personally.  Not a guarantee, but it's definitely there.

But all of this in no way makes my previous post less.... ahem... true.  Whether or not you risk offending your employee, you should still be professional and expect him or her to be the same.  Ultimately, though, you can only directly manage your own behavior.  Managing the behavior of others is a much more subtle and complicated thing... and ultimately, you can't force someone to be professional or courteous, although you can encourage them directly or indirectly to work somewhere else.


----------



## Steve (Jan 11, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> So which Brits then? Do we care about superficial appearances, not particularly. Do we care about how people behave, whether they have good manners, do they have hysterics and over react, well yes we do. We like people to be calm, polite and not in your face. We like good manners and politeness and there is a remarkable amount of it still around.
> If you mean we like to keep up appearances as in not running around like headless chickens when things go ever so slightly wrong or we don't go shooting our mouths off about things which are personal like religion, our choice of contraception or whether or not we have abortions, you are correct. We keep up appearances when all is going to hell in a hand cart, we try to behave with decorum rather than weeping and wailing everywhere. We will say under the most dreadful conditions 'well it could be worse' because dammit it could be.
> No we don't run off to the dentist to have our teeth fixed and whitened so it looks like a graveyard full of shiny tombstones in our mouths everytime we open our mouths. We have our fashions, which are copied in a lot of places, we may complain about our countries (yes countries, we have a few of them) but we also have sheer class. :ultracool
> 
> ...


I like making sweeping generalizations about Brits.  But that's only because I like you guys so much!


----------



## celtic_crippler (Jan 11, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> So which Brits then? Do we care about superficial appearances, not particularly. Do we care about how people behave, whether they have good manners, do they have hysterics and over react, well yes we do. We like people to be calm, polite and not in your face. We like good manners and politeness and there is a remarkable amount of it still around.
> If you mean we like to keep up appearances as in not running around like headless chickens when things go ever so slightly wrong or *we don't go shooting our mouths off about things which are personal like religion, our choice of contraception or whether or not we have abortions*, you are correct. We keep up appearances when all is going to hell in a hand cart, we try to behave with decorum rather than weeping and wailing everywhere. We will say under the most dreadful conditions 'well it could be worse' because dammit it could be.
> No we don't run off to the dentist to have our teeth fixed and whitened so it looks like a graveyard full of shiny tombstones in our mouths everytime we open our mouths. We have our fashions, which are copied in a lot of places, we may complain about our countries (yes countries, we have a few of them) but we also have sheer class. :ultracool
> 
> ...


 
I guess Americans aren't the only thin-skinned folks around.  Sorry, didn't mean to get yer dander up. I actually gave you props. But that goes back to what I was saying in regards to how people recieve what you say, regardless...

Oh, and in regards to the bolded part of your post... I couldn't resist. It suddenly reminded me of this:


----------



## Carol (Jan 11, 2010)

celtic_crippler said:


> True.
> 
> But that leads us back to the question.
> 
> ...



I think there can be a correlation.  But there is also a responsibility of the manager to bear a standard for professionalism.  If the manager does everything right (or close to right), then the fault is with the report for not being professional.  

But if the manager doesn't manage the situation well -- if they don't explain why (say) comp time is necessary, if they are inconsistent with enforcement and give no reason for doing so, if they aren't professional with their communication....then the fault lies either more, or equally, with the manager for not setting the employee's expectations. 

I remember working in a group a some years back ago who.he best fit for management, shall I say.  He did some things very well.  In other matters, he was grasping at straws.  For example, he set metrics  that were used to gauge the groups performance, but they were constantly in flux.  One week, it was number of cases, another it was hours spent on cases, another it was hours spent on higher-priority cases.  There were a number of us (myself included) that became very agitated with him because of how "the truth" was constantly changing.

So...sometimes I think reports have a legitimate gripe.   

Other times...they jus' whinin' :lol2:


----------



## celtic_crippler (Jan 11, 2010)

Carol said:


> I think there can be a correlation. But there is also a responsibility of the manager to bear a standard for professionalism. If the manager does everything right (or close to right), then the fault is with the report for not being professional.
> 
> But if the manager doesn't manage the situation well -- if they don't explain why (say) comp time is necessary, if they are inconsistent with enforcement and give no reason for doing so, if they aren't professional with their communication....then the fault lies either more, or equally, with the manager for not setting the employee's expectations.
> 
> ...


 
Circumstances impact perception, true (ironic how often that word has been used in this thread to express agreement...lol) but let's assume for the sake of argument that the "truth" does not change in this example.

Lets assume that the metrics and responsibilites of each report are clearly defined and all communications to them are professional & even courteous. 

Now then, would you assume that uprofessionalism is a trait shared by those who often find the truth offensive?


----------



## Carol (Jan 11, 2010)

celtic_crippler said:


> Circumstances impact perception, true (ironic how often that word has been used in this thread to express agreement...lol) but let's assume for the sake of argument that the "truth" does not change in this example.
> 
> Lets assume that the metrics and responsibilites of each report are clearly defined and all communications to them are professional & even courteous.
> 
> Now then, would you assume that uprofessionalism is a trait shared by those who often find the truth offensive?



Sure.  Especially in your comp time scenario, that's not even a matter of constructive criticism, that's a matter of standard operating procedures.  You don't have to like it, but you do have to go along with the job.


----------



## Jenny_in_Chico (Jan 13, 2010)

However, Crippler...you need to accept that not everyone appreciates 1) your sense of humor and 2) your particular manner of "telling the truth" as you see it. In watching you on this forum, I've seen that you can be crabby and take offense when riled. You have even (dare I say it? yes, I do dare) been somewhat insulting on occasion. Don't get me wrong, I like you and I think you're really funny, and I agree with a lot of your opinions, but it seems to me that you are the pot calling the kettle black. Review your own behavior and try to determine where you might have moderated your delivery or worked toward a mutually satisfactory outcome...it is only when we take responsibility for our own part in any problem that we truly grow. I hope you take this post as it was intended.


----------



## celtic_crippler (Jan 13, 2010)

Jenny_in_Chico said:


> However, Crippler...you need to accept that not everyone appreciates 1) your sense of humor and 2) your particular manner of "telling the truth" as you see it. In watching you on this forum, I've seen that you can be crabby and take offense when riled. You have even (dare I say it? yes, I do dare) been somewhat insulting on occasion. Don't get me wrong, I like you and I think you're really funny, and I agree with a lot of your opinions, but it seems to me that you are the pot calling the kettle black. Review your own behavior and try to determine where you might have moderated your delivery or worked toward a mutually satisfactory outcome...it is only when we take responsibility for our own part in any problem that we truly grow. I hope you take this post as it was intended.


 
How dare you!  lol

I never said that I wasn't an opinionated ****.  

I have admitted to being wrong... on occasion, or to even having my opinion altered when someone presents a logical and rational point. 

I am, after all, a flawed human being like every one else in constant need of improvement. 

Here are some "truths" to ponder: 

"The truth hurts. - anonymous

"A thing is not necessarily true because a man dies for ithttp://thinkexist.com/quotation/a_thing_is_not_necessarily_true_because_a_man/217746.html -Oscar Wilde

"All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them." - Galileo Galilei

"If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything." - Mark Twain

"You never find yourself, until you face the truth" - Pearl Bailey

"Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters, can not be trusted with important matters." -Albert Einstein

" The truth is incontrovertible, malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end; there it is." -Winston Churchill

      What you percieve, your observations, feelings, interpretations, are all your truth. Your truth is important. Yet it is not The Truth." - Linda Ellinor

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell


----------



## Jenny_in_Chico (Jan 13, 2010)

celtic_crippler said:


> How dare you!  lol
> 
> I never said that I wasn't an opinionated ****.


 
I calls 'em as I sees 'em, sugar pie.   You're an ****, but amusing, so it balances out.


----------



## KELLYG (Jan 14, 2010)

The truth is a fluid thing.  Remember at one point every one thought the world was flat.  It is also as individual to people, on a personal level, as a set of finger prints.   Most take their life experience and incorporate it in to their decision making, right or wrong.  For example an African American can see a confederate flag and have a different response than someone of another race.  For me personally for me I am kinda like Mark Twain, except I always try to tell the truth because I find it hard to keep up with the lies that would be required to cover it up.  Growing up if I got in trouble and was asked to explain myself, I always got punished more for lying, than telling the truth. As for the whole (western) thing.  I think that many people in the west (America) do live in a fantasy land.   I think that some of the current economic crisis that we are in is because of people trying to live out the "fantasy" life that is portrayed on TV as opposed to what their life and income allows.   Also some (non-Americans) think that we are ignorant of what happens in the outside word, I think that in most cases they are correct.  The media/news concentrates on things like the death of Michael Jackson, American Idol, Reality TV and things of that ilk that nothing of any great importance do not seep through.    
:idunno:  The thruth what it is is not for me to say.  :idunno:


----------



## Grenadier (Jan 14, 2010)

I can understand adding a spoonful of sugar to help the medicine go down (the medicine go down...  the medicine go down...  Sorry, thinking of Mary Poppins).  A bit of tact and appropriateness can go a long way when presenting the truth.  

On the other hand, there comes a point where too much sugar causes you to rot...  

Let's look at the term "black," as it is used to describe someone with darker skin.  There's nothing wrong with calling a black person a "black person," since it is what it is.  Going out of one's way to use the term "African American" is a foolish thing, indeed, since not all black Americans are of African descent.  

Calling a Jamaican American an "African American" is simply not correct, and in many cases, can result in the Jamaican American taking it as an insult.  There are also black Brazilian Americans who would take offense at being called "African American."  The use of the term "black" is not offensive to them, though.  

Give people credit...  They're not going to be nearly as offended over non-politically correct things as the politically correct boogeymen would have you believe.  

Sometimes, you got to call a spade "a spade."


----------



## Tez3 (Jan 14, 2010)

Actually if  you are going to call people African whatever, calling Jamacians that is correct, all black Jamaicans are decended from African slaves. The native people of the West Indies were Indians akin to the Incas, Aztecs etc, they were completely wiped out by the white settlers who then brought African slaves in. 

Btw I'm not 'thin skinned' in the least, I just like putting people right when they go wrong! Of course the Americans like us Brits, we invented them!


----------



## celtic_crippler (Jan 14, 2010)

Jenny_in_Chico said:


> I calls 'em as I sees 'em, sugar pie.  You're an ****, but amusing, so it balances out.


 
There's nothing I respect more! 

I'm still working on the "****" thing... It's a work in progress. LOL



KELLYG said:


> The truth is a fluid thing. Remember at one point every one thought the world was flat. It is also as individual to people, on a personal level, as a set of finger prints. Most take their life experience and incorporate it in to their decision making, right or wrong. For example an African American can see a confederate flag and have a different response than someone of another race. For me personally for me I am kinda like Mark Twain, except I always try to tell the truth because I find it hard to keep up with the lies that would be required to cover it up. Growing up if I got in trouble and was asked to explain myself, I always got punished more for lying, than telling the truth. As for the whole (western) thing. I think that many people in the west (America) do live in a fantasy land. I think that some of the current economic crisis that we are in is because of people trying to live out the "fantasy" life that is portrayed on TV as opposed to what their life and income allows. Also some (non-Americans) think that we are ignorant of what happens in the outside word, I think that in most cases they are correct. The media/news concentrates on things like the death of Michael Jackson, American Idol, Reality TV and things of that ilk that nothing of any great importance do not seep through.
> :idunno: The thruth what it is is not for me to say. :idunno:


 
Great post. 

Perception has a huge influence on how individuals interpret the "truth." 

Perception is influence by such variables as the media. 



Grenadier said:


> I can understand adding a spoonful of sugar to help the medicine go down (the medicine go down... the medicine go down... Sorry, thinking of Mary Poppins). A bit of tact and appropriateness can go a long way when presenting the truth.
> 
> On the other hand, there comes a point where too much sugar causes you to rot...
> 
> ...


 
Exactly! Though tact and respect is necessary in dealings with others, where is the line drawn where being PC becomes detrimental to truth? 

IMHO, if you're an American then you're an American. Be an American. It's okay to be proud of your ancestory, but be a f'n American first for crying out loud. 



Tez3 said:


> Actually if you are going to call people African whatever, calling Jamacians that is correct, all black Jamaicans are decended from African slaves. The native people of the West Indies were Indians akin to the Incas, Aztecs etc, they were completely wiped out by the white settlers who then brought African slaves in.
> 
> Btw I'm not 'thin skinned' in the least, I just like putting people right when they go wrong! Of course the Americans like us Brits, we invented them!


 
We are related. No doubt, as most Americans are WASPs decended from early colonists. 

Don't hesitate to put me straight... I love it when you get rough with me. :inlove:


----------



## Jenny_in_Chico (Jan 15, 2010)

celtic_crippler said:


> I'm still working on the "****" thing... It's a work in progress. LOL
> 
> :inlove:


 
You might try some of those "Butt Lift" jeans.


----------



## Jenny_in_Chico (Jan 15, 2010)

Grenadier said:


> I can understand adding a spoonful of sugar to help the medicine go down (the medicine go down... the medicine go down... Sorry, thinking of Mary Poppins). A bit of tact and appropriateness can go a long way when presenting the truth.
> 
> On the other hand, there comes a point where too much sugar causes you to rot...
> 
> ...


 
I have never met a black person who got pissed off at being called black. I think it is super-sensitive white people who are trying to be kind and it ends up just making more trouble than it's worth.


----------



## Carol (Jan 15, 2010)

Jenny_in_Chico said:


> You might try some of those "Butt Lift" jeans.



I want pics!


----------



## Jenny_in_Chico (Jan 15, 2010)

Not to derail the thread...but we really need to get a petition up for that, Carol.

WHO WANTS TO SEE CELTIC CRIPPLER CRAMMED INTO SOME "BUTT LIFT" JEANS???


----------



## Bruno@MT (Jan 15, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> Actually if  you are going to call people African whatever, calling Jamacians that is correct, all black Jamaicans are decended from African slaves. The native people of the West Indies were Indians akin to the Incas, Aztecs etc, they were completely wiped out by the white settlers who then brought African slaves in.
> 
> Btw I'm not 'thin skinned' in the least, I just like putting people right when they go wrong! Of course the Americans like us Brits, we invented them!



By that line of reasoning, it's ok to call Americans 'English'.
Not sure that they'll agree.


----------



## Bruno@MT (Jan 15, 2010)

As for the topic of this thread: 'truth' because a difficult topic the second you're presented with the age old question: does my *** look fat in these pants?

There is the 'say it as it is' truth which will make you persona non grat for the rest of the month.
And then there is the diplomatic truth that delivers the same message while at the same time also safeguarding the immediate future.

Both are equally truthfull.
People who pride themselves on 'saying it like it is' are generally just people who take joy in being blunt. Because the same message can be delivered in a different manner without being nasty.


----------



## xJOHNx (Jan 15, 2010)

Kierkegaard made his philosophy for a part around the truth.
There is objective truth (water is wet,the sun goes up in the morning)
and subjective truth (I like blue colours).
He postulated that we shouldn't care about subjective truth, as everyone has one and it will never be the same as another persons' subjective truth.

In retrospective: he died alone as a frustrated man. So I don't know how far his philosophy brought him.


----------



## Tez3 (Jan 15, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> By that line of reasoning, it's ok to call Americans 'English'.
> Not sure that they'll agree.


 


I don't mean they are descended from the English but that we enabled them to become Americans.


----------



## celtic_crippler (Jan 15, 2010)

Jenny_in_Chico said:


> Not to derail the thread...but we really need to get a petition up for that, Carol.
> 
> WHO WANTS TO SEE CELTIC CRIPPLER CRAMMED INTO SOME "BUTT LIFT" JEANS???


 
Only if you want to have nightmares for the rest of your life. LOL


----------



## KELLYG (Jan 15, 2010)

Bruno,

I have never asked my current bf this question "does this make me look fat", cause with his since of humor he would say "no your fat makes you look fat".  Then the fight would be on:angel:


----------



## Steve (Jan 15, 2010)

Jenny_in_Chico said:


> I have never met a black person who got pissed off at being called black. I think it is super-sensitive white people who are trying to be kind and it ends up just making more trouble than it's worth.


I've never heard of a black person being offended by being called black.  I've also never met the hyper PC white person either.  All I ever meet are anti-PC people telling stories that they heard from other anti-PC people about hyper PC people that no one's ever really met but must exist somewhere...  if that makes sense.


----------



## Deaf Smith (Jan 15, 2010)

celtic_crippler said:


> What does it say about a people who expect apologies for honesty; who find the truth offensive?


 
First off, honesty can be a blunt tool. And being honest with your views does not mean the views are right, only that you do not hold back on how you view things.

Tact is important as well as honesty. I could be honest and tell you the zit on your forehead looks like a horn..... But it would be more tactful to just ignore it. That is not being dishonest, just tactful.

As for truth, well like honestly there are ways to speak the truth but not be harsh. For you see, you can be truthful or you can be brutally truthful.

And, of course, one has to agree what is to be considered truth. We can say truthfully that if you throw a ball into the sky it will come back down. We all agree that is a fact. But when we start discussing subjective things, thats where truth becomes a bit harder to define.

Take Global Warming as an example. We can all agree pollution is bad as it hurts the eco-system. We can all agree that too much carbon-dioxide is bad. But when we get raw data and it does not fit the idea that the earth is warming, and we fudge it a bit with the idea that it will spur people to conserve and recycle, well the truth gets trampled on to further a lofty goal. You have perverted truth to justify an end.

And by doing that everyone will consider anything you said a lie, even if in reality you were trying to do a good thing.

So one learns to be truthful and tactful. And to stay away from the concept of means justify the end.

Deaf


----------



## Hudson69 (Jan 15, 2010)

The pendulum is swinging back toward a more conservative society, I think, and less and less people are being cowed into not speaking for fear it may offend someone else.

This speaking out is often times the truth that could be misconstrued as a verbal attack on a person or group by those in the PC mindset.

Hopefully this is changing because silence due to PC'edness is deadly to a society because it becomes a tool for those who know how to apply the right label.


----------

