# Youngest Kukkiwon 8th Dan at age 44 in the news



## andyjeffries (Jun 21, 2011)

As I started the thread on Kukkiwon 6 year old "black belt"s, I thought I'd post this one in a similar vein...

http://www.koreaherald.com/lifestyle/Detail.jsp?newsMLId=20110621000600

Choi started learning taekwondo at the age of five. He majored in taekwondo at university, and eventually joined the army to become a trainer. His love of the martial art never ceased, with him writing books on the subject including 5000 Years History of Taekwondo.

Except for the "5000 years" of history bit, I can imagine a 44 year old 8th Dan won't cause nearly as much fuss...


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## terryl965 (Jun 21, 2011)

If memory serves me right I thought the KKW had a age requirement for each Dan level. They had to be like 63 to get to 8th dan. I guess everything is changing. I remember this was on the old KKW site and I really have not been to the new one yet.


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## andyjeffries (Jun 21, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> If memory serves me right I thought the KKW had a age requirement for each Dan level. They had to be like 63 to get to 8th dan. I guess everything is changing. I remember this was on the old KKW site and I really have not been to the new one yet.



http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/english/examination/examination08.jsp

Article 8

Minimum age is 44.  60 is the minimum age for 10th Dan now.


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## terryl965 (Jun 21, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/english/examination/examination08.jsp
> 
> Article 8
> 
> Minimum age is 44. 60 is the minimum age for 10th Dan now.


 
Yea I guess technically people can be a 4th by the time they turn 18 and then so on and so on. Man I remember high ranking people being old and had wisdom behind them or it seem that way. Not saying he does not have wisdom or anything because I do not know him.


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## hungryninja (Jun 21, 2011)

There is also Article 17: Privileges, for shortened age and time limits:
http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/english/examination/examination08.jsp#17


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## troubleenuf (Jun 21, 2011)

And as they change things they loose credibility.  Again.


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## msmitht (Jun 21, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/english/examination/examination08.jsp
> 
> Article 8
> 
> Minimum age is 44.  60 is the minimum age for 10th Dan now.



@ the lat 2 FIC we were told 10th dan could only be given afer death.


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## Archtkd (Jun 21, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> As I started the thread on Kukkiwon 6 year old "black belt"s, I thought I'd post this one in a similar vein...
> 
> http://www.koreaherald.com/lifestyle/Detail.jsp?newsMLId=20110621000600
> 
> ...



Did he submit the book as his thesis?


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## terrylamar (Jun 21, 2011)

The Kukkiwon has not lowered the standards as much as correcting a discrepancy between the *Minimum Time Required for Promotion** and the *Age Limit for Promotion**.

The 1975 Kukkiwon Textbook has the *Obligatory training period (years)** 7th Dan to 8th Dan as 7 years. The *Age limit for promotion** 7th Dan as "age 36 and over," for 8th Dan "age 47 and over." As we can all add 36 + 7 = 43.

The requirements were further changed to require 8 years between 7th Dan to 8th Dan, *Minimum Time Required* *for Promotion, making the *Age Limits for Promotion** as "44 years and above." 36 + 8 = 44.

I do not see a "lowering of standards," but a clarification of standards. I can make a case of raising the standards as the Time in Grade was raised from 7 years to 8 years!

*  Different terms used in two different charts.


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## puunui (Jun 21, 2011)

I don't think 44 is the youngest. I know there have been younger 8th Dans in the past. I think the youngest Kukkiwon 9th Dan was GM UHM Woon Kyu, who was 46. USTU Past President Moo Yong Lee was 48 when he received his Kukkiwon 9th Dan 20 years ago. He was 9 years old when he received his Moo Duk Kwan 1st Dan.


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## Kong Soo Do (Jun 21, 2011)

puunui said:


> I don't think 44 is the youngest. I know there have been younger 8th Dans in the past. I think the youngest Kukkiwon 9th Dan was GM UHM Woon Kyu, who was 46. USTU Past President Moo Yong Lee was 48 when he received his Kukkiwon 9th Dan 20 years ago. He was 9 years old when he received his Moo Duk Kwan 1st Dan.


 
I believe you are correct. I 'think' GM Won, In Hui, who is second generation to GM Lee of the HMK was in his late 30's when he reached 8th Dan KKW.  Perhaps 38-39?  He is listed as 9th Dan HMK.

A 44yr old 8th Dan shouldn't be an issue. Using 'standard' TIG, and assuming 3 years to reach 1st Dan, 8th is possible in 35 years. This is assuming 3 years to 1st Dan and no decreased TIG along the way. With this as an example, a 44yr old 8th Dan began training at age 9 or so. This is not unreasonable in the least.


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## Twin Fist (Jun 21, 2011)

and the hits just keep on comming


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## terrylamar (Jun 21, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> and the hits just keep on comming


 
What "hits" are those? Do you care to expound on your comments or are you satisfied to be a drive by poster joining in on a feeding frenzy of anti-Kukki-Taekwondo sentiment?


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## puunui (Jun 21, 2011)

msmitht said:


> @ the lat 2 FIC we were told 10th dan could only be given afer death.



Two Kukkiwon 10th Dan have been awarded to living individuals, Dr. Un Yong Kim and Mr. Juan Antonio Samaranch. Both are still living by the way.


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## Kong Soo Do (Jun 21, 2011)

puunui said:


> Two Kukkiwon 10th Dan have been awarded to living individuals, Dr. Un Yong Kim and Mr. Juan Antonio Samaranch. Both are still living by the way.


 
Not to drift the thread too far...

A lot of people are under the perception that 9th Dan is the highest working Dan in KMA's and that 10th is a post humous award.  As noted above, this is not the case.  Puunui, is there something specific that would enable an individual to reach 10th Dan in the KKW beyond TIG?  As you noted, there are currently two living KKW 10ths.  Is there a limit on the total number of 10th Dans in the KKW?  Is there a reason to have more than one?

Thank you.


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## Tony49 (Jun 21, 2011)

puunui said:


> Two Kukkiwon 10th Dan have been awarded to living individuals, Dr. Un Yong Kim and Mr. Juan Antonio Samaranch. Both are still living by the way.



I believe Juan died April 2010.  Do you know when exactly did he get 10th?  By the way did he even practice TKD?


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## Kong Soo Do (Jun 21, 2011)

Tony49 said:


> I believe Juan died April 2010. Do you know when exactly did he get 10th? By the way did he even practice TKD?


 
Yes, he did pass away April 21, 2010.  Apparently the 10th Dan was honorary according to http://en.wikipilipinas.org/index.php?title=Taekwondo


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## Tony49 (Jun 21, 2011)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Yes, he did pass away April 21, 2010.  Apparently the 10th Dan was honorary according to http://en.wikipilipinas.org/index.php?title=Taekwondo



Ok, so looking more closely it appears that the WTF awarded the 10th Dan to Juan.  I didn't even know that the WTF even gave out rank.  Can anybody clarify this for me...


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## puunui (Jun 21, 2011)

Tony49 said:


> I believe Juan died April 2010.  Do you know when exactly did he get 10th?  By the way did he even practice TKD?




I didn't know that he passed away. We could actually still use his connections and relationships to keep Taekwondo in the Olympic Games. I want to say Mr. Samaranch received his Honorary Kukkiwon 10th Dan early, like 1982. I don't think he practiced Taekwondo but he was the biggest and most visible supporter of Taekwondo in the IOC, next to Dr. Kim. In fact, at IOC vote in 1994 when they were deciding whether Taekwondo would be selected, initially Taekwondo did not get voted in. In fact, the majority of IOC members chose not to select Taekwondo as an official medal sport. But then Mr. Samaranch stood and announced that there would be a re-vote, and this time anyone who was not in favor of Taekwondo being admitted as an Olympic sport could raise their hands or say I. No one voted against Taekwondo and that is how it became an Olympic sport. As far as I am concerned, Mr. Samaranch can have whatever dan rank he wants. 

They will be voting again to determine the 25 core sports of the summer games soon, only this time, there will be no Mr. Samaranch or Dr. Kim to save the day. On top of all of that, Dr. Kim tells us that the IOC hates Taekwondo....


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## Tony49 (Jun 21, 2011)

puunui said:


> As far as I am concerned, Mr. Samaranch can have whatever dan rank he wants.



I agree.  I have also like the Honorary BB it allows you to pay homage to a person who contributes in there own way to the good of a Martial Art.  The only reason I asked was because I didn't want to miss state this man's accomplishments when talking to others.  As you know this is how miss information gets spread.


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## Kong Soo Do (Jun 21, 2011)

puunui said:


> They will be voting again to determine the 25 core sports of the summer games soon, only this time, there will be no Mr. Samaranch or Dr. Kim to save the day. On top of all of that, Dr. Kim tells us that the IOC hates Taekwondo....


 
Why does the IOC hate Taekwondo?


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## MSUTKD (Jun 21, 2011)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Why does the IOC hate Taekwondo?



Use "Google-Fu" for that one!


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## puunui (Jun 21, 2011)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Why does the IOC hate Taekwondo?



The IOC is europe based. The IOC takes tv money from the US but the american IOC members have almost zero influence in the decision making process. If the American IOC members were smarter, they would leverage that tv money into more authority and say, but they don't. Like a national team member with no hope of medaling, the US IOC members are just happy with their IOC title and are just happy to be along for the ride. The european countries don't win very many medals in Taekwondo at the Olympic Games. A cuban player kicked a european referee in the face in front of the whole world at the last olympics. Taekwondo is an asian sport, and they already have judo as the token asian sport, which gives them much less problems. Taekwondo does not generate much revenue for the IOC in the form of tv time, unlike track and field, gymnastics, swimming, etc. Plus, there are constant complaints, criticism, hostility, anger and resentment coming from within Taekwondo, amongst Taekwondo practitioners, including but not limited to questioning about Taekwondo origins and history. No one cares about or questions the origins of soccer, gymnastics or track and field. Then you have the current WTF leadership, which doesn't have many relationships within the IOC membership to smooth things over. Taekwondo is the adopted bastard step child of the Olympic movement that the europeans don't particularly care for, and we are standing at the precipice of maybe the most important time in Taekwondo's history, with maniacs at the wheel and ungrateful disrespectful passengers riding in the back. 

What is there to like, from the IOC's point of view? If I were them I would get rid of Taekwondo too. If I were the WTF or for that matter a Taekwondoin concerned about the future of Taekwondo, I would be doing everything in my power to present Taekwondo as positively as possible, knowing that we are right on the edge of the cliff and can get pushed off at any time. 

This is serious stuff, so much so that Dr. Kim is making the effort to warn us. We should heed that warning, instead of ignoring it.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jun 21, 2011)

From a kukkiwon perspective, what would be the ramifications of tkd no longer being an olympic sport? I say from a kukkiwon/WTF perspective because I imagine from an ITF or independent perspective little would change, but how big an issue would it actually be? Is this something you guys should really be fighting for or would it really not effect tkd very much?


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 21, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> From a kukkiwon perspective, what would be the ramifications of tkd no longer being an olympic sport? I say from a kukkiwon/WTF perspective because I imagine from an ITF or independent perspective little would change, but how big an issue would it actually be? Is this something you guys should really be fighting for or would it really not effect tkd very much?


A lot of work and effort went into getting TKD into the olympics.  Regardless of my personal opinion of the olympics and the IOC, to have put decades of work into getting in and staying in, only to have it all undone, well, yes, that is a serious blow.

It would damage the reputation of the art, cause greater schism and animosity between taekwondoin, and would probably leave a lot of people angry and bitter.  Ramifications for athletes are fairly obvious. 

As for taekwondo out here in suburbia?  Probably would continue along, business as usual.  

Daniel


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## ralphmcpherson (Jun 21, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> A lot of work and effort went into getting TKD into the olympics.  Regardless of my personal opinion of the olympics and the IOC, to have put decades of work into getting in and staying in, only to have it all undone, well, yes, that is a serious blow.
> 
> It would damage the reputation of the art, cause greater schism and animosity between taekwondoin, and would probably leave a lot of people angry and bitter.  Ramifications for athletes are fairly obvious.
> 
> ...


Has tkd become more "unified" since becoming an olympic sport? I ask because I never trained in tkd prior to it being in the olympics and I imagine there were more factions prior to it getting into the olympics.


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## msmitht (Jun 22, 2011)

puunui said:


> Two Kukkiwon 10th Dan have been awarded to living individuals, Dr. Un Yong Kim and Mr. Juan Antonio Samaranch. Both are still living by the way.



Just quoting what we were told. Of course they did not talk about past promotions. Of course I Understand why they were promoted while living. I will ask about it @ the FIC I take after my 6th dan exam.


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## Archtkd (Jun 22, 2011)

I hope this doesn't throw us off topic but this story --  http://www.todaysthv.com/news/article/162030/2/Todays-THV-at-630-pm-Ark-woman-poised-to-make-history --

about an ATA style practitioner preparing for her 8th degree test is interesting. I know nothing about the ATA style and was wondering if creating your own 30 forms is a normal requirement for 8th dan testees of that style.


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## dancingalone (Jun 22, 2011)

Archtkd said:


> I hope this doesn't throw us off topic but this story --  http://www.todaysthv.com/news/article/162030/2/Todays-THV-at-630-pm-Ark-woman-poised-to-make-history --
> 
> about an ATA style practitioner preparing for her 8th degree test is interesting. I know nothing about the ATA style and was wondering if creating your own 30 forms is a normal requirement for 8th dan testees of that style.



Dunno about the 30 forms thing, but the higher dan forms are interesting in the sense that they come 'incomplete'.  The individual is expected to complete the hyung with movements of their own design that have some personal meaning that yet ties back to the overall Songahm system ethos.

Maybe Balrog will drop in on this thread and let us know.


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## Archtkd (Jun 22, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> Dunno about the 30 forms thing, but the higher dan forms are interesting in the sense that they come 'incomplete'.  The individual is expected to complete the hyung with movements of their own design that have some personal meaning that yet ties back to the overall Songahm system ethos.
> 
> Maybe Balrog will drop in on this thread and let us know.



Very interesting concept


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## Tony49 (Jun 22, 2011)

msmitht said:


> Just quoting what we were told. Of course they did not talk about past promotions. Of course I Understand why they were promoted while living. I will ask about it @ the FIC I take after my 6th dan exam.



Just wondering did the 10ths come from Kukkiwon or did they come from WTF?  Not that it really matters just wondering...


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## hungryninja (Jun 22, 2011)

I think the news article got it wrong.  It should be ~30 movements and not 30 forms. In the ATA/Songahm style for 6th degrees and above, you complete the incomplete form by adding in your own segments.



Archtkd said:


> I hope this doesn't throw us off topic but this story --  http://www.todaysthv.com/news/article/162030/2/Todays-THV-at-630-pm-Ark-woman-poised-to-make-history --
> 
> about an ATA style practitioner preparing for her 8th degree test is interesting. I know nothing about the ATA style and was wondering if creating your own 30 forms is a normal requirement for 8th dan testees of that style.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 22, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Has tkd become more "unified" since becoming an olympic sport? I ask because I never trained in tkd prior to it being in the olympics and I imagine there were more factions prior to it getting into the olympics.


I don't know personally, but it seems that within the KKW, it is more unified but as a whole, more fractious.  

I don't see the olympics as the catalyst though; the passage of time and advancement of pracitioners seems to do that all its own.  Often, people get to a certain level and just want to do their own thing.

Others will stay with the organization into old age.  In taekwondo, these would be the pioneers that Glenn often refers to.  

Not all of the peopel from that era stuck with the organziation.  Hwang Kee went off and did his own thing, mainly because of a dislike for Gen. Choi from what I understand.  Choi was forced out because of personality differences arising from him wanting to do things his way.

People subsequently broke of from Choi's organization.

And all of that was prior to olympic inclusion.

Daniel


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## puunui (Jun 22, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Others will stay with the organization into old age.  In taekwondo, these would be the pioneers that Glenn often refers to.




When I refer to the pioneers, I am speaking mainly about either original kwan founders or students who trained in the 1940's under an original Kwan founder and who actively contributed to the development of Taekwondo in Korea. Generally the people who are mentioned as doing something in the Modern History book would be the pioneers I am talking about, the ones who developed Taekwondo in Korea. So for example, GM Jhoon Rhee wouldn't be a pioneer; perhaps he would be an American pioneer, but not in Korea. But GM SON Duk Sung would be a pioneer, even though he came over the the US very early like GM Rhee, because he did participate.


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## puunui (Jun 24, 2011)

Missed these questions: 



Kong Soo Do said:


> A lot of people are under the perception that 9th Dan is the highest working Dan in KMA's and that 10th is a post humous award.  As noted above, this is not the case.  Puunui, is there something specific that would enable an individual to reach 10th Dan in the KKW beyond TIG?  As you noted, there are currently two living KKW 10ths.  Is there a limit on the total number of 10th Dans in the KKW?  Is there a reason to have more than one?



No there is nothing specific that would enable an individual to reach 10th Dan beyond time in grade. But you would have to do something spectacular in order to receive it, dead or alive. There is no limit on the number of 10th Dans to be awarded. Why would there be a limit? The people who have been awarded 10th Dan are outstanding individuals who have contributed greatly to Taekwondo's development and growth. For example, GM LEE Byung Ro, the only Taekwondoin who was not a kwan jang when he received his 10th Dan after he passed away, is credited with developing the steps as well as the conceptual framework for modern competition sparring.


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