# Reactive Defence Techniques



## chasman (Sep 14, 2017)

I learnt a street style Kenpo in my late teens but never had reason to use it in anger and haven't practised in years. I'm now I'm in my 50s, overweight and have dodgy knees. If you ask me to do a break-fall I'll probably break my neck instead.

I'd like to learn an efficient, effective method of self-defence against street threats. In these days of ubiquitous surveillance and unpredictable juries, I feel it is important the attack should be initiated by the aggressor. Passive defence? Reactive defence? I'm particularly interested in subtlety and minimalism. Pressure points rather than punches and kicks. Slipping and parrying in preference to brutal blocking. I like joint locks and disarms...

This forum claims to be friendly... now we'll see


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## drop bear (Sep 14, 2017)

Jits.


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## hoshin1600 (Sep 14, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Jits.


if the OP is asking for recommendations for an art he may not understand your short hand.


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## hoshin1600 (Sep 14, 2017)

chasman said:


> I learnt a street style Kenpo in my late teens but never had reason to use it in anger and haven't practised in years. I'm now I'm in my 50s, overweight and have dodgy knees. If you ask me to do a break-fall I'll probably break my neck instead.
> 
> I'd like to learn an efficient, effective method of self-defence against street threats. In these days of ubiquitous surveillance and unpredictable juries, I feel it is important the attack should be initiated by the aggressor. Passive defence? Reactive defence? I'm particularly interested in subtlety and minimalism. Pressure points rather than punches and kicks. Slipping and parrying in preference to brutal blocking. I like joint locks and disarms...
> 
> This forum claims to be friendly... now we'll see



hey chaseman  welcome to MT.
you are asking a question that everyone asks when they are looking for an art to train in.  you post offers two variable restrictions.. one your not in great shape and two you feel the legal pressure to learn something that is not aggressive.  i would advise you to not think too much about either of those factors.  for starters once you get into training your fitness level should go up and for the legal issue while it may be a concern for you, if you really dig into the topic you will find your concern is unfounded.  there have been many threads about martial arts and the law of self defense here. i would suggest you do a search and do some reading. it might alleviate some of your reservations.
after that just find a school near you that you like the teacher and the environment and enjoy yourself.


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## drop bear (Sep 14, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> if the OP is asking for recommendations for an art he may not understand your short hand.



Sorry.

The jujitsu.


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## oftheherd1 (Sep 14, 2017)

chasman said:


> I learnt a street style Kenpo in my late teens but never had reason to use it in anger and haven't practised in years. I'm now I'm in my 50s, overweight and have dodgy knees. If you ask me to do a break-fall I'll probably break my neck instead.
> 
> I'd like to learn an efficient, effective method of self-defence against street threats. In these days of ubiquitous surveillance and unpredictable juries, I feel it is important the attack should be initiated by the aggressor. Passive defence? Reactive defence? I'm particularly interested in subtlety and minimalism. Pressure points rather than punches and kicks. Slipping and parrying in preference to brutal blocking. I like joint locks and disarms...
> 
> This forum claims to be friendly... now we'll see



Some styles of Karate do what you are asking for.  Aikido and Hapkido certainly do as well.  Traditional Judo and Jujitsu should as well, but I don't know how much they teach pressure points.  Read up on them as hoshin1600 says and find a teacher and school you like. BJJ is somewhat popular mostly I think because of MMA.  I've never studied it so I can't be certain, but is seems they are too quick to want to go to the ground.


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## frank raud (Sep 14, 2017)

I would not recommend relying on pressure points for self defense. Too many variables make them unreliable, and if that's all you got, what do you have?


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 14, 2017)

chasman said:


> I learnt a street style Kenpo in my late teens but never had reason to use it in anger and haven't practised in years. I'm now I'm in my 50s, overweight and have dodgy knees. If you ask me to do a break-fall I'll probably break my neck instead.
> 
> I'd like to learn an efficient, effective method of self-defence against street threats. In these days of ubiquitous surveillance and unpredictable juries, I feel it is important the attack should be initiated by the aggressor. Passive defence? Reactive defence? I'm particularly interested in subtlety and minimalism. Pressure points rather than punches and kicks. Slipping and parrying in preference to brutal blocking. I like joint locks and disarms...
> 
> This forum claims to be friendly... now we'll see


A few thoughts to feed into your decision-making...

A good system should have both reactive and proactive tools. It's legally preferable (in a general sense - nothing absolute in that) to wait until the other person attacks, but not always a good decision. You'll want to have both sets of tools. I don't have a favorable view of systems that are only reactive - they normally don't even have the tools to re-initiate movement if the attack stalls.
You need strikes, in my opinion. I'm primarily a grappler (standing mostly, groundwork when I absolutely must), and grappling is easier when you have solid striking tools to supplement it.
Pressure points are unreliable. If they don't feel the pain, the point rarely has any effect. All of us who have trained pressure points have run into at least one person who didn't sufficiently feel each point.
Most styles/systems are capable of being used reactively. If you were to look at boxing (the system that comes to mind as least fitting your description), for instance, a good defensive boxing approach exists, and counter-punching fits your needs.
If you want to get into joint locks, you're almost certainly going to get into throws, too. As far as doing falls, look for a school that throws more gently (at least especially for the lower ranks). There's a wide range out there, and it varies more by school than by art, in my experience.


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## ShortBridge (Sep 14, 2017)

What is available in your area?


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## chasman (Sep 14, 2017)

Jiu Jitsu, Aikido and Wing Chun are all local to me.

To refine my original question, it's not really about who hits first, it's about appearances. 

If your reaction to someone else's aggression is to take up a stance:

1) You are inviting, arguably even consenting, to violence.
2) Tipping off the aggressor you've had at least some training.
3) Making him look a chicken in front of his buddies if he backs down, meaning violence is almost inevitable.
4) Looking less sympathetic to a jury.

Ideally, I want to have both arms in front of me, open palms in a placatory gesture. I know someone is going to say that's a red rag to a bully and I get that, but the footage will be 100% on my side, assuming I win if it kicks off. I'm going to be pointing out the cameras so he knows it will look bad...


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## ShortBridge (Sep 14, 2017)

Why don't you visit and perhaps try each of those things? They are all rather different, but any of them COULD be what you are looking for. Ask questions, how they are taught can be almost as important as what they are.

And let us know where you land.


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## oftheherd1 (Sep 14, 2017)

frank raud said:


> I would not recommend relying on pressure points for self defense. *Too many variables make them unreliable*, and if that's all you got, what do you have?





gpseymour said:


> A few thoughts to feed into your decision-making...
> 
> A good system should have both reactive and proactive tools. It's legally preferable (in a general sense - nothing absolute in that) to wait until the other person attacks, but not always a good decision. You'll want to have both sets of tools. I don't have a favorable view of systems that are only reactive - they normally don't even have the tools to re-initiate movement if the attack stalls.
> You need strikes, in my opinion. I'm primarily a grappler (standing mostly, groundwork when I absolutely must), and grappling is easier when you have solid striking tools to supplement it.
> ...





frank raud said:


> I would not recommend relying on pressure points for self defense. Too many variables make them unreliable, and if that's all you got, what do you have?



My experience is that most people react to pressure points if they are applied correctly.  That is the key.  For those few who may not, just be sure you have a backup plan, something to transition to.

FYI, the Hapkido I studied generally used pressure points as an assist.  One of our early wrist grab defenses is to swing the wrist down and back over the opponents arm, while activating the pressure point in the outer elbow.  The grabbed arm is then slid under the opponent's arm while we step through and behind the opponent, putting the opponent in an arm lock grabbing the clothing, and pulling back on the head by pulling the opponent's hair or forehead.  Might sound complicated, but in fact is really isn't.  And it flows quite smoothly with the aid of the pressure point.

I believe it is Isshin Rhu Okinawan Karate that also uses pressure points, including some that will drop you.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 14, 2017)

oftheherd1 said:


> My experience is that most people react to pressure points if they are applied correctly.  That is the key.  For those few who may not, just be sure you have a backup plan, something to transition to.
> 
> FYI, the Hapkido I studied generally used pressure points as an assist.  One of our early wrist grab defenses is to swing the wrist down and back over the opponents arm, while activating the pressure point in the outer elbow.  The grabbed arm is then slid under the opponent's arm while we step through and behind the opponent, putting the opponent in an arm lock grabbing the clothing, and pulling back on the head by pulling the opponent's hair or forehead.  Might sound complicated, but in fact is really isn't.  And it flows quite smoothly with the aid of the pressure point.
> 
> I believe it is Isshin Rhu Okinawan Karate that also uses pressure points, including some that will drop you.


NGA uses pressure points intermittently, and I use them fairly extensively in my approach. In the dojo, they generally do pretty well until you run into someone they don't work on. When they work (as you suggested) they are a great assist - so long as you're prepared to complete without them, rather than depending upon the pressure point reaction to fuel the technique.

My main problem with them is that they are less reliable if someone is adrenaline-loaded or on drugs - the situations where we need our best responses. So, I use them as if they won't work. When they do, the technique just gets easier.


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 14, 2017)

frank raud said:


> I would not recommend relying on pressure points for self defense. Too many variables make them unreliable, and if that's all you got, what do you have?



This is true. 
In my experience, everybody has at least a couple pressure points that just don't work on them, mostly due to anatomical variation.
And pressure point techniques are difficult, advanced skills. They require a degree of precision and control that VERY few people are going to have without an awful lot of practice.


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## frank raud (Sep 14, 2017)

chasman said:


> Jiu Jitsu, Aikido and Wing Chun are all local to me.
> 
> To refine my original question, it's not really about who hits first, it's about appearances.
> 
> ...


Geoff Thompson is credited with coining the phrase, the Fence, which is pretty much what you describe. Once things kick off, if they do, how you follow up will depend on your training and preferences. The fence can work with any of the arts you mention as being local to you.


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 14, 2017)

chasman said:


> Jiu Jitsu, Aikido and Wing Chun are all local to me.
> 
> To refine my original question, it's not really about who hits first, it's about appearances.
> 
> ...



Ummmmm..... what you're describing is taking a stance, which you just said was a Bad Thing (tm). It's also the position I most commonly start with in confrontations with violent people in our ER.


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## frank raud (Sep 14, 2017)

oftheherd1 said:


> My experience is that most people react to pressure points if they are applied correctly.  That is the key.  For those few who may not, just be sure you have a backup plan, something to transition to.
> 
> FYI, the Hapkido I studied generally used pressure points as an assist.  One of our early wrist grab defenses is to swing the wrist down and back over the opponents arm, while activating the pressure point in the outer elbow.  The grabbed arm is then slid under the opponent's arm while we step through and behind the opponent, putting the opponent in an arm lock grabbing the clothing, and pulling back on the head by pulling the opponent's hair or forehead.  Might sound complicated, but in fact is really isn't.  And it flows quite smoothly with the aid of the pressure point.
> .



So....you are saying that you can't depend on pressure points and better have an alternative because they aren't always reliable?


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 14, 2017)

frank raud said:


> So....you are saying that you can't depend on pressure points and better have an alternative because they aren't always reliable?



I'd go so far as to say everything we do is unreliable to some extent, and you should always have a backup plan. No strike, throw, grapple, gunshot, etc is 100%.


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## Anarax (Sep 14, 2017)

chasman said:


> I learnt a street style Kenpo in my late teens but never had reason to use it in anger and haven't practised in years. I'm now I'm in my 50s, overweight and have dodgy knees. If you ask me to do a break-fall I'll probably break my neck instead.
> 
> I'd like to learn an efficient, effective method of self-defence against street threats. In these days of ubiquitous surveillance and unpredictable juries, I feel it is important the attack should be initiated by the aggressor. Passive defence? Reactive defence? I'm particularly interested in subtlety and minimalism. Pressure points rather than punches and kicks. Slipping and parrying in preference to brutal blocking. I like joint locks and disarms...
> 
> This forum claims to be friendly... now we'll see



Filipino Martial Arts(Kali, Escrima, Arnis) matches the criteria you speak of. Panatukan, the empty handed portion of FMA, teaches slips, parries, locks, throws, chokes, sweeps, etc. Defanging the snake is an important concept in FMA, essentially it's an aggressive defense. One example of defanging is parrying and opponents punch into your elbow, injuring his fist. From an onlookers perspective the puncher is the aggressive and the other guy was only defending himself. Aikijutsu sounds like something else you might be interested in.


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## jobo (Sep 14, 2017)

chasman said:


> Jiu Jitsu, Aikido and Wing Chun are all local to me.
> 
> To refine my original question, it's not really about who hits first, it's about appearances.
> 
> ...


stances are for the reasons you state a poor idea, and worse far worse than that most of them look silly, the up side is the other guy will be to busy laughing at you to attack.

stances are not mean to be held, they are a position to transitions into and through as the attack happens, you can go from you arms out, " don't want no trouble" stance, in to a stable ready pose and into action in less than a second


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## chasman (Sep 14, 2017)

Quote failed please delete...


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## chasman (Sep 14, 2017)

Dirty Dog said:


> Ummmmm..... what you're describing is taking a stance, which you just said was a Bad Thing (tm). It's also the position I most commonly start with in confrontations with violent people in our ER.


I'm not sure I follow your criticism here.

If I go sideways on, front leg bent a bit as a groin guard but weight back ready to kick or withdraw, front hand up and clenched as a guard, back arm cocked, head down looking mid torso so I can see all his guns, THAT is my stance and says "Come on let's fight.." Bad Thing (TM)

The fence looks innocuous and non-aggressive. Technically a stance from our PoV but not the aggressor's.


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 14, 2017)

chasman said:


> I'm not sure I follow your criticism here.
> 
> If I go sideways on, front leg bent a bit as a groin guard but weight back ready to kick or withdraw, front hand up and clenched as a guard, back arm cocked, head down looking mid torso so I can see all his guns, THAT is my stance and says "Come on let's fight.." Bad Thing (TM)
> 
> The fence looks innocuous and non-aggressive. Technically a stance from our PoV but not the aggressor's.



Point of view is irrelevant. You're either taking a stance or you're not. 
Any stance can be adjusted to be more or less aggressive in appearance.
Do exactly what you describe above, but open your hands and shift them to a slightly more central location. Bring your head up a bit. Boom. Aggression gone.
You're still 'taking a stance' though.


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## chasman (Sep 14, 2017)

Thanks for the input everyone... I'm going to visit the local teachers as advised.


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## drop bear (Sep 14, 2017)

You can have your hands wherever you want if you understand your distances. If you are in range and they have the angle. You probably won't even see the first attack.

So for me the fence isn't so much a stance as a concept.

Now having said that. If they are going n range my hands are up and I am ready to go. Because I can't reliably prevent punches from certain positions and I dislike getting punched in the face. I tend to avoid the whole in range waiting to fight thing.


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## ShortBridge (Sep 14, 2017)

You might also check out the book "scaling force" by Lawrence Kane and Rory Miller. It goes deep into considerations of legal considerations in self-defense.


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## Danny T (Sep 14, 2017)

Get whatever training you can get with the instructor you enjoy the training with the most. Be aware, most martial arts systems aren't self defense systems...they are fighting systems.
There is far more to self defense/personal protection than fighting.


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## JR 137 (Sep 14, 2017)

Along with what's been said...

Don't just limit yourself to "Martial Arts."  I put that in quotes because people tend to only think karate, Kung fu, judo, jujitsu, etc. when they think of martial arts when they're looking around.  

Check out boxing and wrestling clubs too if they're in your area.  When used right and with the right people, wrestling may or may not be a good fit for you.  If jujitsu is on the radar, wrestling is an alternative.  The only way to know is to check it out.


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## oftheherd1 (Sep 15, 2017)

frank raud said:


> So....you are saying that you can't depend on pressure points and better have an alternative because they aren't always reliable?



No, I did not say that.  Please reread my post.


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## FighterTwister (Sep 15, 2017)

Danny T said:


> Get whatever training you can get with the instructor you enjoy the training with the most.
> *
> Be aware, most martial arts systems aren't self defense systems...they are fighting systems.
> There is far more to self defense/personal protection than fighting*.



I don't know why you would emphasize on that being one is "Defensive and one is Fighting", its irrelevant in my opinion and a nonconforming statement of interpretation.

Its in my opinion they are all designed for "Unarmed Combat" being "Martial Arts" and if Judo is more defensive as you say watch this.............





















So this play on words that one is softer and less harmful, than the other........ pfftt ..... really, C'mon!

Allot depends on the guy doing it, you could be thrown like a rag doll by a 7.4 foot tall person weighing 200Ib's

Again its not the Martial Art in question or debate its all about the person and selecting a Martial Art that suits the body type or the demeanor E.g How Aggressive are you?

Its also how proficient you are at it or mastered in the art form that really counts in all considerations.


Competition
Personal Training
Self Defense

Work Related
MMA 

Etc

But anyway all opinions welcome of course.

I just don't agree with the dictionary view and assumption that is portrayed that some are more deadlier, I laugh my head off silly.


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## Danny T (Sep 15, 2017)

FighterTwister said:


> I don't know why you would emphasize on that being one is "Defensive and one is Fighting", its irrelevant in my opinion and a nonconforming statement of interpretation.
> 
> Its in my opinion they are all designed for "Unarmed Combat" being "Martial Arts" and if Judo is more defensive as you say watch this.............
> 
> ...



Huh!??

Chasman was asking what should he take? Then he said Jiu Jitsu, Aikido and Wing Chun are all local to me.

I said: "Get whatever training you can get with the instructor you enjoy the training with the most. Be aware, most martial arts systems aren't self defense systems...they are fighting systems.

There is far more to self defense/personal protection than fighting.”
Didn't say anything about any art being more defensive than another.

Your videos on Judo are great. 
However, he stated Jiu Jitsu, Aikido, and Wing Chun were local to him not Judo.
So take what is available with the instructor he enjoys training with most.
Nothing about one being better than the other, one being more defensive than the other.

Now as to Self defense/personal protection being fighting; fighting is but a form and a part of self defense. There is more to self defense than just being able to fight.


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## drop bear (Sep 15, 2017)

FighterTwister said:


> I don't know why you would emphasize on that being one is "Defensive and one is Fighting", its irrelevant in my opinion and a nonconforming statement of interpretation.
> 
> Its in my opinion they are all designed for "Unarmed Combat" being "Martial Arts" and if Judo is more defensive as you say watch this.............
> 
> ...



If you are old and out of shape. Judo is going to be a hard path.


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## FighterTwister (Sep 16, 2017)

chasman said:


> I learnt a street style Kenpo in my late teens but never had reason to use it in anger and haven't practised in years. I'm now I'm in my 50s, overweight and have dodgy knees. If you ask me to do a break-fall I'll probably break my neck instead.
> 
> *I'd like to learn an efficient, effective method of self-defence against street threats. In these days of ubiquitous surveillance and unpredictable juries, I feel it is important the attack should be initiated by the aggressor. Passive defence? Reactive defence?*
> 
> ...





Just to join in discussion and provide constructive feedback here are my replies

First………..  yike’s……on the highlighted part, that freaks me out a little, there is none.

The street has no rules or no boundaries that allow’s you just to remain defensive.

Well you could try to be Floyd Mayweather the greatest defensive boxer ever or maybe Usain Bolts the fastest runner ever as another option…LOL

Is that a friendly enough answer ….. Hehehe


Okay, on a serious note, yes I know what you mean, but you are talking “Streets” it’s another story altogether.

You need wits about you on this side of the fence being street threats as you put it.

Some of the reasons you have already aforementioned but you eluded to the fact that the street is life threatening and is a non-format environment like sparring for example, there are no rules no limitations so on, right.

The street is raw, unscripted, unpredictable, violent, fast and intensive you need a martial art that helps you in the fight as much as helps you remain defensive and strike to defend yourself.

Side note Boxing can be okay but again wrong format for such an environment and requirement but helpful nonetheless.

There is no middle ground or sugar coating when you have people for example high on ICE squaring up with you and throwing crazy frontal attacks on you.

Sadly to say, look on YouTube, if you have the stomach for it, very upsetting to see what happens to both the attacker on ICE and the victims.

Also in any martial art you do you will be forced to fight there is no other option as the saying goes “Fight or Flight” get in or get out……….or run fast.

From the legal standpoint you address,  its all about intent in a court of LAW they will look at this and check your history if any, in a court room there are freedoms for aggressive behavioral instincts (actions) for “Self Defense” in line with “Preservation of Life Laws" etc. … the fear of being killed in an attack or hostile environment.

For example “kidnapping” etc  ……. you would need to research these laws in your state and country.

It’s also more about you not the martial arts when you are talking “Defensive Street Fighting” so to speak you got to be fit healthy, reasonably fast on your feet quick to think and most importantly have many skills in your tool box, if that makes any sense.

“Defensive Street Fighting” is a disparity in terms of martial arts, you are not going to be able to just grab someone in a lock and say right I dealt with that.

You should be so lucky if that ever happened, its 1 in a million chance of success.

A real street fight is not like watching Steven Seagal movies LoL

Normally you would have to move around allot and weaken the opponent  by hitting hard somewhere like the groin or head butting  the nose and then take an arm and lock it so on. But you struck that person in the process of an attack is the point, so by definition its attacking and defending yourself by taking control of the fight.

So all martial arts are capable of this you said you use to practice KENPO here is an example of that………….







You could just continue with that and focus on improving your fitness and health making sure your BMI matches your height so forth as you. Because you mentioned your knees well there are other options to avoid strenuous knee exercises or putting more weight on them. Usually knee pain is due to being overweight amongst other things like ankle pain and swelling etc. So shedding a few pounds and doing some exercises that strengthen theses areas will help as well not forgetting dietary changes and disciplines.

Honestly, I love Chocolate and Pizza so I have to be strict with myself I would kill for both LoL also I’m a wine lover so a good combination I think getting a.......... meal, dessert and fluids ………Hahahahaha

I would strongly recommend joining a gym first and get in shape you could be doing some boxing in-between if you like.

An example of a modern Fitness Center here:- Coaching & Training Services | Anytime Fitness






What you get these days is:-

24/7 hour Fitness Centers
Free - Initial Fitness Consultation and Assessment - Loot at YouTube for what this entails as expectations
Personal Development Training Plan and Set Goals to achieve

Personal Trainer and proper Workout Plan to follow through as daily activities on various equipment

Defined areas of improvement like needs and suggested advice from professional trainers
Support Services - coaching or advice etc 

Group Workouts
Benefits of using other gym services like - Sauna’s, Swimming Pools, Massages, Boxing ring or Octagons for light sparring etc
Also meeting other people and building a social network and support as well as good info
So you would need to shop around for something that suits you and your age group and taste as they are all different and offer or cater for many things.

Find a place where you are comfortable to train.

Doing things like..............


Stretching = Flexibility Conditioning 

Exercises = Mobility Conditioning
Light Weights = Strength Conditioning

Relation and Recovery = Natural Healing Conditioning

All other options will not fit due to the heavy commitment to movement and kicks, ground work or jumping up and down so on and your current health and fitness, in my opinion.

Martial Arts like Wing Chun have ground work and kicks to the knees as an example.






Or this as another example.......... Basic Kick Everyone Should Know | Wing Chun

So you can see what I mean, that you are asking too much of yourself in your current condition, you will be better off losing weight and improve your fitness condition first. To improve your overall health and well-being and develop better mobility and have the energy to pursue martial arts and fitness requirements, if you don't you could cause serious injury to yourself by doing martial arts is what I'm addressing.

Its only then in my opinion you can take on something like Wing Chung or Kenpo again.

I would honestly suggest Tai Chi to be honest it will open another world of fitness relaxation and also Martial Arts as you learn the various forms and roots in that branch of Tai Chi Martial Arts, its your choice of course but there are many forms and styles that are relaxed yet offer martial arts skills.

Well, I’m just chatting with you here as we don’t know each other and providing good honest feedback that will help you in the bigger picture also putting your money in well spent areas of physical health and development.

Cheers M8


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## drop bear (Sep 16, 2017)

FighterTwister said:


> Martial Arts like Wing Chun have ground



lets just never show wing chun ground work. I mean it gets mocked enough without showing the equivalent of a rabbit driving a truck.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 16, 2017)

drop bear said:


> lets just never show wing chun ground work. I mean it gets mocked enough without showing the equivalent of a rabbit driving a truck.


Some bits in that video weren't awful, then that sweep happened.


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## Danny T (Sep 16, 2017)

Randy Williams has some good stuff...this video - not so much.


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## drop bear (Sep 16, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Some bits in that video weren't awful, then that sweep happened.



That mount defence.

But look Aparently i am a bit of a duchebag. So lets go with the popular approach.

Hey wing chun guys. That defence looks really awesome you are definately ahead of the game there. In fact we have a fun little fight show Airlie beach fight night. With some really fun guys that you could come down and totally own.

Just please promise to go easy on us okay?

I mean its got rules and stuff so it is not even like a real fight more like a sport.


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## JR 137 (Sep 16, 2017)

drop bear said:


> If you are old and out of shape. Judo is going to be a hard path.


Curiosity question,,,
How does judo compare to wrestling, physically?  Obviously different teachers and coaches have different emphasizing, but on average would you say one is significantly harder than the other from a conditioning and body getting beat up on standpoint?

In other words, if I can hang in an average wrestling club, would an average judo club be significantly easier, harder, or about the same?   How about an average BJJ school?


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## drop bear (Sep 16, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> Curiosity question,,,
> How does judo compare to wrestling, physically?  Obviously different teachers and coaches have different emphasizing, but on average would you say one is significantly harder than the other from a conditioning and body getting beat up on standpoint?
> 
> In other words, if I can hang in an average wrestling club, would an average judo club be significantly easier, harder, or about the same?   How about an average BJJ school?



You could make wrestling easier if you wanted because you can ease people on to the ground.

A hip or shoulder throw the best you can do is not drive them in to the mat.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 17, 2017)

drop bear said:


> You could make wrestling easier if you wanted because you can ease people on to the ground.
> 
> A hip or shoulder throw the best you can do is not drive them in to the mat.


Other than that, the groundwork effort is probably pretty similar. It's the standing throws in arts like Judo that can get rough. I can ease someone down off a hip throw in drills (and that apparently takes some skill - students struggle to have enough control of uke to ease them down), but not in resisted training. A shoulder throw is always a shoulder throw.


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## drop bear (Sep 17, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Other than that, the groundwork effort is probably pretty similar. It's the standing throws in arts like Judo that can get rough. I can ease someone down off a hip throw in drills (and that apparently takes some skill - students struggle to have enough control of uke to ease them down), but not in resisted training. A shoulder throw is always a shoulder throw.



And this guy weighs a bit which is going to make it more difficult.

Double leg. Single legs can be trips if you want to he nice. 

That wrestling vs aikido bid is a good example of a wrestler taking care of his partner.


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## frank raud (Sep 19, 2017)

oftheherd1 said:


> No, I did not say that.  Please reread my post.


"My experience is that MOST people react to pressure points if they are applied correctly. That is the key. For those few who may not, JUST BE SURE YOU HAVE A BACKUP PLAN, SOMETHING TO TRANSITION TO

FYI, the Hapkido I studied generally used pressure points as an assist. One of our early wrist grab defenses is to swing the wrist down and back over the opponents arm, while activating the pressure point in the outer elbow. The grabbed arm is then slid under the opponent's arm while we step through and behind the opponent, putting the opponent in an arm lock grabbing the clothing, and pulling back on the head by pulling the opponent's hair or forehead. Might sound complicated, but in fact is really isn't. AND IT FLOWS QUITE SMOOTHLY, WITH THE AID OF THE PRESSURE POINT."

Bolding by me. So you say PP works on most people(not all)and you should have something (non reliant on PP) to fall back on if the PP don't work, but you're not saying "So....you are saying that you can't depend on pressure points and better have an alternative because they aren't always reliable? " Then you go on to describe a technique that is not reliant, but augmented with a PP as an example?


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## oftheherd1 (Sep 19, 2017)

Splitting hairs.  Not worth a response.


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## drop bear (Sep 19, 2017)

As far as pressure points go I take it on a case by case basis.

So. When someone bites me I will nose gouge them straight off the bat. I have eye gouged guys but I think the reaction is just a bit too slow. I do it because if I get a result it is a quick one I can hit from a lot of angles pretty easily. 

But it does rely totally on pain compliance. So if it fails then it fails.

But that is one pressure point for one situation.


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## Kababayan (Sep 21, 2017)

chasman said:


> Jiu Jitsu, Aikido and Wing Chun are all local to me..



 There have been some really good responses here that include great information for you to consider.  Let me add a few thoughts, some of which have been repeated from other posters, which may add to the validity of them.  It sounds to me like you are looking for something that is practical, takes all aspects of self defense into account, and focuses on the legality of self defense.  If the above martial arts are your only choices, Wing Chun may give you the closest to what you are looking for (closest, but not necessarily close.) Regarding legality, posturing, and "talking your way out of a fight", often times it's up the individual instructor to  gain knowledge in those topics so that they can be passed on to students.  Unfortunately, those topics aren't embedded in most martial arts. Going back to your original topic, Wing Chun is great and has practical applications (punches, kicks, blocks, etc.)  Jiu Jitsu is awesome but can be very jarring on the body, especially if fitness level is a concern.  Aikido is a beautiful art but may not give you the practical self defense that you are looking for.  If you have access to a Krav Maga school, it may be the closest to what you are looking for.  It's not so much a martial art, but rather a system of self defense.  Krav has it's own limitations but, unless I misunderstood your post, I think it's the closest to what you are looking for. That being said, from your original choices, Wing Chun would be one worth checking out.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 21, 2017)

chasman said:


> Pressure points rather than punches and kicks. Slipping and parrying in preference to brutal blocking. I like joint locks and disarms


I'm not a big fan of pressure points as many schools market them.  Too many schools market pressure points as if it's a button that you can simply press and the attacker will "shut down."   I use pressure points in school but they require conditioning which is often feels brutal but is needed to build up the bone in the body parts that we strike with.  It also helps us to learn how to better target the pressure point.

Slipping and parrying is taught in most systems.  "Brutal blocking" is usually what people say when their arms aren't conditioned.  Martial arts systems in general don't preach to meet force with force when it comes to blocking, unless they are trying to break something or jam something.

From a health perspective since you have bad knees.  I would probably recommend a martial art that will actually help to strengthen the ligaments and tendons in the knee and other joints.  This will benefit you as you continue to get older and will go a long way to helping you remain mobile (with the exception of disease causing the problem)



chasman said:


> To refine my original question, it's not really about who hits first, it's about appearances.
> 
> If your reaction to someone else's aggression is to take up a stance:
> 
> ...



1)  I don't like anything these 4 things.  If you are being harassed, in a heated argument,  or any position of where you feel like you need to defend yourself, then that "Invitation" was not only sent, but the person accepted and showed up for the party.  I don't know why people have this "Keep it a secret that I'm about to defend myself" mentality.  

2)  I want my attacker to know that I have had training.  I actually want my attacker to know this even before he approaches me.  I want him to look at me and be uncertain about his outcome if he attacks me.  Uncertainty prolongs decisions, so if I can keep an aggressive person in that state of mind then it's better than me.  I don't want to look totally helpless like a victim.  Looking like a victim is an invitation to violence.   I also don't want to walk around like I'm the Alpha man that dominates over everyone.  This can attract violence just as easily.  The problem isn't letting my attacker know that I have training.  The problem is letting my attacker know the extent of my training.

3). Making him look a chicken in front of his buddies if he backs down.   This is a personality issue and not a martial arts one or self-defense one.

4) Looking less sympathetic to a jury.  I wouldn't bank on this one.  If you are think you are about to get into a fight then, always try to position yourself as you were the one who was trying to avoid confrontation.  If cameras are around then stay in front of the camera.  If witnesses are around draw attention to the conflict by talking louder and literally saying "I don't want any problem."  "I don't want to fight."  Layout as much as a defense before the fight actually starts.  That way you don't have to try to count on someone feeling sorry for you just because you took the first punch to your face and as a result ended up in the hospital.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 21, 2017)

frank raud said:


> So....you are saying that you can't depend on pressure points and better have an alternative because they aren't always reliable?


You can't depend on pressure points as some schools advertise it. For example this:




There are more practical and safer ways to attack that nerve than what he's showing.  

And then there's stuff like this.  None resisting opponent. Things like this become very difficult to pull off once fist start flying and bodies start moving.  It's difficult enough to punch someone in the face, now think how difficult it is, to hit a small target area on the body.





Do pressure points work?  Yes.  Are they easy off like what people show?  No.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 21, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Some bits in that video weren't awful, then that sweep happened.


I'm not a fan of "explainer" videos like that, where the person talks through "What you could do"  I like for my "explainer" videos to be videos where the teacher shows the technique working in free sparring and then after that, he can walk though the finer points.   I think people just get themselves in trouble when they start by explaining things from the context of a "willing partner."  I don't do ground fighting, but I know that if I'm struggling to get off my back then the person on top is struggling to keep me there.  If I'm struggling to roll someone who is on top of me, then that person is going to do what he or she can to stay on top.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 21, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm not a fan of "explainer" videos like that, where the person talks through "What you could do"  I like for my "explainer" videos to be videos where the teacher shows the technique working in free sparring and then after that, he can walk though the finer points.   I think people just get themselves in trouble when they start by explaining things from the context of a "willing partner."  I don't do ground fighting, but I know that if I'm struggling to get off my back then the person on top is struggling to keep me there.  If I'm struggling to roll someone who is on top of me, then that person is going to do what he or she can to stay on top.


I don't mind when they don't show the sparring usage first (I prefer if they do, but that's hard to capture on video unless you video all the live work you do). But I do want to see techniques that would work against a person's weight. I don't even need them to be resisting, so long as there's a reasonable situation where some likely response would include not resisting (so, for a pulling technique, a situation where they'd be likely to push).


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## Buka (Sep 21, 2017)

There are times when making somebody look like a chicken in front of his buddies can trigger violence we all wish to avoid. Given the choice, I always let someone save face.

And if the situation is reversed, and somebody is trying to make a friend of mine look like a chicken if he backs down from a fight - my attitude sometimes tends to change direction, especially if I feel the person is actually a threat.


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