# Basai....Is it a part of TSD?



## IcemanSK (Aug 24, 2006)

I asked this question about the origin of the form Basai in the General Korean Forum & got various answers. My instructor uses it in TKD. He says its a holdout from the "early days in Korea" & is a karate kata.

But in the past week, I've had TSD folks say its a part of their curiculum & have seen karate folks do it at a tournament.

What is your understanding of the origins of it? Do you still do it?


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## rmclain (Aug 24, 2006)

There are two main Bassai forms:  Bassai Tae, Bassai So.  Both of these are from Okinawan karate.

All of the early Tangsoo-do/Kongsoo-Do schools following WWII in Korea were established by Koreans that studied karate abroad.  So, the early curriculums taught karate forms.

With the exception of Mooduk-Kwan, all of the major kwans were assimilated into the new Taekwondo in the 1960's and their original curriculums were dropped in favor of a newly created standards and forms.

So, the Mooduk-Kwan people that still call their art "Tangsoo-Do" are correct - it is part of their curriculum.  Most TKD people don't use it.

R. McLain


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## terryl965 (Aug 24, 2006)

Bassia does from the Okinawa Karate and I teach it as Master McLain knows to my boys it is a great form to do at Karate or open tournament and also with the AAU, it really scores high.
Terry


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## IcemanSK (Aug 24, 2006)

rmclain said:
			
		

> There are two main Bassai forms: Bassai Tae, Bassai So. Both of these are from Okinawan karate.
> 
> All of the early Tangsoo-do/Kongsoo-Do schools following WWII in Korea were established by Koreans that studied karate abroad. So, the early curriculums taught karate forms.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks for the info, sir. My instructor (GM Ed Sell) goes back to the early 1960's & his early training in Korea w/ Basai. (Hence his interest, I imagine). How different are the 2 forms (Tae & So)? The one we do starts w/ a falling forward supported backfist. Which one is that form?


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## Makalakumu (Aug 24, 2006)

Bassai Dai and Bassai Sho.

We practice both of these forms in our dojang.  Is there anything in particular that you would like to know about them?


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## zDom (Aug 24, 2006)

IcemanSK said:
			
		

> Thanks for the info, sir. My instructor (GM Ed Sell) goes back to the early 1960's & his early training in Korea w/ Basai. (Hence his interest, I imagine). How different are the 2 forms (Tae & So)? The one we do starts w/ a falling forward supported backfist. Which one is that form?



Wow! A fellow Chung Do Kwan student 

I got my second dan in TKD through GM Ed Sell's Chung Do Kwan under my buddy, Master Tim Wall.

(GM Ed Sell and GM Brenda Sell sat on my testing panel, btw  It was just me and my little brother testing, both for our second dans. What an exhausting but memorable experience! I'm pretty much retired from TKD now to pursue my hapkido training, but Chung Do Kwan is a great organization, and the Sell's are great folk.)

I've walked through Basai before - the same one you are talking about - but never really learned the pattern or know which one it is. I thought it was a Shotokan karate form, though.

Definately worth doing as a way of paying homage to one of TKD's root, IMO, and is a fine looking form.

As pointed out somewhere else in this thread, it is probably nice to have it down for use when competing in open/karate tournaments.


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## rmclain (Aug 24, 2006)

IcemanSK said:
			
		

> Thanks for the info, sir. My instructor (GM Ed Sell) goes back to the early 1960's & his early training in Korea w/ Basai. (Hence his interest, I imagine). How different are the 2 forms (Tae & So)? The one we do starts w/ a falling forward supported backfist. Which one is that form?


 
Your description sounds like Bassai Tae.  F.Y.I.: Sometimes a Korean instructor will call this form "Balsek Tae."

Upnorthkyosa,

I looked at the links you provided.  I've never seen that version of Bassai So on the video before.  Thanks for sharing.

R. McLain


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## IcemanSK (Aug 24, 2006)

zDom said:
			
		

> Wow! A fellow Chung Do Kwan student
> 
> I got my second dan in TKD through GM Ed Sell's Chung Do Kwan under my buddy, Master Tim Wall.
> 
> ...


 
I'm not the only USCDKA person on MT. "Last Fearner" (CM Eisenhart) is as well. And, if I'm not mistaken, we might have another very soon. The Sell's are indeed great people. I'm planning on testing for 3rd Dan in the spring at National Conference. It's my 1st time testing under the USCDKA. I've heard they can be loads of fun. 

I'm glad you're here zDom & glad we have that connection!


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## IcemanSK (Aug 24, 2006)

rmclain said:
			
		

> Your description sounds like Bassai Tae. F.Y.I.: Sometimes a Korean instructor will call this form "Balsek Tae."
> 
> Upnorthkyosa,
> 
> ...


 
Thank you again, sir.:asian: I just got curious as to which one (since there's more than one) it is. I'm a bit of a geek when it comes to trivia. (I think its from too much tv as a kid). My wife says that I never remember important things, just little things that no one else remembers.:supcool: 

Again, I appreciate the help.


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## Makalakumu (Aug 24, 2006)

rmclain said:
			
		

> Your description sounds like Bassai Tae. F.Y.I.: Sometimes a Korean instructor will call this form "Balsek Tae."
> 
> Upnorthkyosa,
> 
> ...


 
Many of the TSD hyung have been altered from their original Okinawan forms.  This presents many problems for us as we attempt to understand their meaning...


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## Brother John (Aug 24, 2006)

Basai is a Kata of Karate-Do and belongs in a Korean art about as much as it belongs in a Chinese one.

Your Brother
John


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## IcemanSK (Aug 24, 2006)

Brother John said:
			
		

> Basai is a Kata of Karate-Do and belongs in a Korean art about as much as it belongs in a Chinese one.
> 
> Your Brother
> John


 
Well, we like it & we're keepin' it:CTF:


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## Brother John (Aug 24, 2006)

IcemanSK said:
			
		

> Well, we like it & we're keepin' it:CTF:


hahaha....
I don't blame ya!!

Funny thing is...in the TKD school I went too, we actually had some American Kenpo Sets and techniques and also did what is called "Short form 1"...in a TKD school.
We liked'm and kept'm too...

I didn't mean to sound so harsh. I don't have ANY problem with "Cross-polination" w/in the martial arts. In fact, I'm quite fond of it.
BUT: I'd hope that "Basai" would NEVER be called a "Korean, TKD, Hyung", because it just isn't.

Your Brother
John


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## IcemanSK (Aug 25, 2006)

Brother John said:
			
		

> hahaha....
> I don't blame ya!!
> 
> Funny thing is...in the TKD school I went too, we actually had some American Kenpo Sets and techniques and also did what is called "Short form 1"...in a TKD school.
> ...


 
GM Sell properly calls Basai a kata. We also do the "5 star block" which I understand is popular in Kenpo circles.


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## EmperorOfKentukki (Aug 25, 2006)

Bassai...or as it is pronounced in Korea...Bal Sae...is indeed part of the standard TSD curriculum of most classical schools.  The form is typically taught as the Chodan qualifying hyung.  The form means, "Remove Obsticle" (while often translated as penetrate a fortress...this is a Japanese cultural reading of the Hanja).  Koreans also sometimes refer to the form as Pal Che which means 'best choice' (others translate it as 'chosse quickly'  but there is disagreement about this).  The form is indeed borrowed from the Shuri-ryu of Okinawa.  The creator of the form is generally accepted to be Sokon Bushi Matsumura, the Ryu Kyu kingdom designated Royal bodyguard and instructor to the King and his Castle administrators.   Matsumura basically was head of security for the governement during the 19th century.  He was versed in many arts to include native staff (bojutsu), Saijutsu (the common weapon of the law enforcement officers of his day) as well as the use of the Katana (Japanese Sword).  He also trained in China in Fukien based martial arts on more than one occasion.  It is believed the Bassai (Patsai in the original Ryukyuan dialect) form was his compilation of Southern Shaolin techniques...most probably Southern Shaolin Crane Fist.  Some believe the form to date back 300 to 900 years.  We can safely assume it was being utilized in Okinawa by around 1850 a.d., making the form atleast 150 years old.

Around 1937 - 1939 a.d., Hwang Kee obtained the form from reading Japanese books on Okinawan Karate (because Karate is an Okinawan martial art originally).    In 1947, Lee Won Kuk, founder of the Chung Do Kwan, suggested to Hwang Kee he utilize a Karate based curriculum for his Moo Duk Kwan school as Koreans were familiar with the Japanese based arts (up to that time, Hwang Kee had been teaching a predominantly Chinese based art he called Hwa Soo Do).  Thus, the MDK became known for teaching Tang Soo Do (this being the Korean pronunciation of the Hanja for Karate Do).  

Due to certain features of how the MDK taught and propogated the form Bal Sae, it is believed by several of us that Hwang Kee's source for the form may have been the original text on Karate Jutsu written by Ginchen Funakoshi.  Thus...the similarity between TSD's version of the form and modern Shotokan Karate Do.

I hope this helps.

The Emperor


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## Brother John (Aug 25, 2006)

That's one of the MOST informative posts on Moo Duk Kwan that I've EVER read.
Thank you sir!

SO....then as you've informed me, there is a "Version" of Basai done in MDK/TSD that is a rough aproximation of the Shotokan version of Basai due to Funakoshi's text-book. Is that roughly correct?
VERY interesting.

So then how much of MDK/TSD is a Korean original and how much of it is a translation of Japanese/Okinawan systems?
IF this is TOO much off topic, please say so and I'll gladly start another thread on this topic.

Thanks

Your Brother
John


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## Makalakumu (Aug 25, 2006)

Brother John said:
			
		

> So then how much of MDK/TSD is a Korean original and how much of it is a translation of Japanese/Okinawan systems?
> IF this is TOO much off topic, please say so and I'll gladly start another.


 
Almost everything in classical TSD is borrowed from Japanese Karate.  The exception is our kicking techniques which were innovated in korea.  Whether this is an ancient or modern innovation is debatable.  

The MDK is changing though.  Hwang Kee, before he died, interpreted a number of Korean books on its martial arts and innovated the Chil Sung forms, the Yuk Ro forms, and Hwa Soo.  These forms are distinctly Korean and were innovated by Koreans.  And although the innovation of the forms is in the modern day, they are inspired by ancient traditions.

I'll see what I can do in order to post some videos of these forms.  I learned Chil Sung 1-4 and Yuk Ro Cho Dan before my teacher left the federation.


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## Brother John (Aug 25, 2006)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> the Chil Sung forms, the Yuk Ro forms, and Hwa Soo. These forms are distinctly Korean and were innovated by Koreans. And although the innovation of the forms is in the modern day, they are inspired by ancient traditions..


What were these books and what were the traditions??
Just wondering
Thanks


Your Brother
John


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## Makalakumu (Aug 25, 2006)

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29240


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## JasonASmith (Aug 25, 2006)

Interesting thread...I just saw Bassai Dai for the first time last night in the dojo...It's seems difficult, I can't wait to learn it in the future!


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## IcemanSK (Aug 25, 2006)

EmperorOfKentukki said:
			
		

> Bassai...or as it is pronounced in Korea...Bal Sae...is indeed part of the standard TSD curriculum of most classical schools. The form is typically taught as the Chodan qualifying hyung. The form means, "Remove Obsticle" (while often translated as penetrate a fortress...this is a Japanese cultural reading of the Hanja). Koreans also sometimes refer to the form as Pal Che which means 'best choice' (others translate it as 'chosse quickly' but there is disagreement about this). The form is indeed borrowed from the Shuri-ryu of Okinawa. The creator of the form is generally accepted to be Sokon Bushi Matsumura, the Ryu Kyu kingdom designated Royal bodyguard and instructor to the King and his Castle administrators. Matsumura basically was head of security for the governement during the 19th century. He was versed in many arts to include native staff (bojutsu), Saijutsu (the common weapon of the law enforcement officers of his day) as well as the use of the Katana (Japanese Sword). He also trained in China in Fukien based martial arts on more than one occasion. It is believed the Bassai (Patsai in the original Ryukyuan dialect) form was his compilation of Southern Shaolin techniques...most probably Southern Shaolin Crane Fist. Some believe the form to date back 300 to 900 years. We can safely assume it was being utilized in Okinawa by around 1850 a.d., making the form atleast 150 years old.
> 
> Around 1937 - 1939 a.d., Hwang Kee obtained the form from reading Japanese books on Okinawan Karate (because Karate is an Okinawan martial art originally). In 1947, Lee Won Kuk, founder of the Chung Do Kwan, suggested to Hwang Kee he utilize a Karate based curriculum for his Moo Duk Kwan school as Koreans were familiar with the Japanese based arts (up to that time, Hwang Kee had been teaching a predominantly Chinese based art he called Hwa Soo Do). Thus, the MDK became known for teaching Tang Soo Do (this being the Korean pronunciation of the Hanja for Karate Do).
> 
> ...


 
Thank you for this, sir. You've answered a question I had yet to ask. Mainly, "I wonder why my instructor would use this form?" Being Chung Do Kwan from the early 60's in Korea, it makes sense that the MDK/CDK connection would still be strong.

Thanks again for your input, sir.:asian:


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## PeppersPetHuman (Jan 31, 2007)

Basai (also called Passai) is a red-belt form. I am learning it right now. I think it's the coolest-looking one of all.


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## JT_the_Ninja (Feb 1, 2007)

PeppersPetHuman said:


> Basai (also called Passai) is a red-belt form. I am learning it right now. I think it's the coolest-looking one of all.



You haven't seen some of the higher stuff, then *evil grin*. 

But yeah, both Pal Che forms are really cool, and they really separate the juniors from the seniors, due to the complexity of the moves. There are a lot of stance changes and moves that require very practiced technique, which is why they're among those seen most often at tournaments.


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## The Kidd (Feb 1, 2007)

It is our Advanced Brown form, my instructor had to do it for his 1st Degree Black.


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## PeppersPetHuman (Feb 19, 2007)

I'm about to get my first-degree black belt, so I know most everything. Which high level ones are you talking about?


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## JT_the_Ninja (Feb 19, 2007)

PeppersPetHuman said:


> I'm about to get my first-degree black belt, so I know most everything. Which high level ones are you talking about?




Sip Soo, for one. Jin Te for another. Then there are the forms I haven't even learned yet but have seen done by my seniors. Dunno what the ordering system is for your school, but that's what I had in mind.


Not to say that the bassai forms aren't cool; I still like doing those ones, personally, and still find things that I need to improve as I'm doing them.


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