# Why Some Countries Can Be Ill-Thought Of



## Sukerkin (Feb 14, 2008)

I know that it's by no means funny but why do I have a certain sketch by Monty Python going through my head when I read this article? 


http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/em/fr/-/1/hi/world/middle_east/7244579.stm

"'Ow d'you know she's a witch then?"

Honestly, I'm aware that there is nothing more biased or filtered than the news, especially foreign news but can someone please remind me which century we're living in?


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## LuzRD (Feb 14, 2008)

i dont even know where to begin in venting my disgust. i think its best that i do not respond further at this time out of respect for the swear filter.

Sukerkin thank you for bringing my attention to somthing i never thought would be/ WITCHCRAFT?!?!?!? REALLY?!?!?!?!? ok forget it im pissed at ignorance more than usual.

even the thought "build a bridge out of her" doesnt help


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## Catalyst (Feb 14, 2008)

Unbelievable. Simply unbelievable.

How do you defend yourself against a crime which can't be disproven because it doesn't exist? (I'm sure she was guilty until proven innocent.)

I don't think the key thing is what century we're living in.
I think the key thing is what century they're living in.

I know that there's a time zone difference between New York and Riyadh, It's usually expressed in hours, but in this particular case, it's measured in millenia.


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## Empty Hands (Feb 14, 2008)

Belief in witches is still heavily present in the world, especially in Africa.  Really though, why is belief in witchcraft "crazy" while belief in an elephant headed God, a God born of a virgin who talks to rednecks and crazy people, or a God who rewards murderers with everlasting paradise perfectly sane?  None are really any more rational than the other, just that a bunch of poor backwards 3rd worlders believe in witches, so they are the "crazy" ones.

Or are they only backwards because they want to criminalize actions based on religious beliefs?  Well, I would remind you all that even the secular, profane UK still has blasphemy laws on the books, and that there are a substantial number of people in the US who would love nothing better than to institute "biblical law" should they get the chance.  We are not in much better shape than they are, we luckily have a number of secular traditions and institutions to protect us from this nonsense.


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## CoryKS (Feb 14, 2008)

How the Human Rights Watch can monitor the Magic Kingdom and not throw its hands up in resignation is beyond me.  They're totally hopeless.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 14, 2008)

Sukerkin said:


> I know that it's by no means funny but why do I have a certain sketch by Monty Python going through my head when I read this article?
> 
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/em/fr/-/1/hi/world/middle_east/7244579.stm
> ...


 
I don't know... she turned someone into a newt... but they got better...  or more likely she weighed the same as a duck



Sukerkin said:


> Honestly, I'm aware that there is nothing more biased or filtered than the news, especially foreign news but can someone please remind me which century we're living in?


 
I believe we are in the 21st century but you wouldn't know it by that article. And how exactly DOES an illiterate woman sign her written confession :disgust:


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## Andrew Green (Feb 14, 2008)

It's even present in North America, not in the government, but occasionally a preacher makes the news for wanting to return to following God's law, which states "Suffer not a Witch to live"

Not sure if anyone was executed under McCarthy's inquisition, but there was definitely a lot of persecution based on personal beliefs, no different then religion.  Some pretty major racial issues are still in the memory of survivors of it. Muslim's have been facing increased levels of discrimination in the past few years, with some radical religious leaders putting out calls against the religion, seems the US government has even been involved in this to some extent.

This is no doubt wrong, and the justice system there is  in need of modernization.  But we shouldn't sit back and pretend such discrimination only happens on the other side of the world, we've not won the fight against it here.

In the west most people don't believe in Witchcraft, so as a reason to be executed it is pretty clearly a bad one.  Yet, in other parts of the world belief in Witchcraft is still around.  Over here "Islamic Extremism" has taken the place, minus the supernatural evidence.


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## Steel Tiger (Feb 14, 2008)

Oh its a beautiful thing isn't it, the accusation of witchcraft.  No matter what faith you ascribe to there is absolutely no way to defend yourself against it.

Back in the days when the Inquisition was running hot and the light from witch-burning pyres was illuminating Europe the only way to avoid a truly fatal punishment was to confess and then recant these blasphemous and heretical beliefs.  Then you probably wouldn't die, just be maimed in some way (if you weren't already from the "questioning" process).

The fear of witches is very interesting.  It is a religious thing.  The Cunning Woman (witch, though this isn't really accurate) and the Wise Man (wizard) were important parts of the community for a long time.  But the Church (in Europe, and probably the same in the Islamic world) in its usual jealous and greedy fashion wanted what these people had, as small as it was (there's something in the Ten Commandments about that isn't there?), so they took it.

You know, in africa one can be a witch without actually knowing it.  This is a psychic state known as having a snake in the belly.  These witches can unintentionally curse those they think ill of.  Another group of magic workers, commonly called, in translation, sorcerers, finds witches and exorcises the snake spirit.  The witch may have to pay compensation to those who have been wronged but they are not punished in the same way we have seen witches punished under Christian rulings.

I wonder what the woman in the article did to bring down the ire of those who decided to tell lies about her?  I got the impression that all the accusers were men, so there could definitely be some of that good old sexual prejudice going on here.  Sadly, it is very unlikely that we will ever find out what in going on.  I can only see this woman being punished for a strange and benighted belief that should have died out at leasty 200 years ago.


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## Ninjamom (Feb 14, 2008)

Catalyst said:


> I don't think the key thing is what century we're living in.
> I think the key thing is what century they're living in.


 
And that's the rub.

If you want to discuss this issue you have to use language the Saudis can understand.  So here is my open letter to Islamists and Shar'ia-ists of every radical stripe:

Sirs:  

If you want to execute this woman for witchcraft, I must report you to the Saudi Religious Police for blasphemy (punishable by death).  For this woman to have put a spell on the witness against her, she must have used magic more powerful than Allah, whom you claim protects your nation.  For you to say such a thing is clearly blasphemous against your own religion.

I must also report you to the Religious Police for apostacy (punishable by death).  Every time you kill an 'enemy of Allah' you are declaring your belief that he is too weak and too impotent to defend himself.

Every bomb you set off in a civilian area declares your belief that Allah is incapable of exacting justice.  Every act of terrorism you commit screams your hatred for the God who gave life to those you kill.  Every bullet you fire proclaims that your god is dead and just as incapable of killing as giving life.  Every act you take 'in defense of Allah' proves that your god is so weak that he needs your help and cannot accomplish anything without relying on you.  For these things, I must report to the Religious Police that you are an infidel and have denied faith in any god (punishable by death).

How can anyone believe in your god, when your own actions declare that you yourselves believe him to be weak, powerless, incompetent, and incapable of any action worth mentioning on his own?  By these actions you have turned many away from faith in Allah (punishable by death).

For your own sakes, I implore you: repent!  Let this woman go, and stop acting like such knee-jerk nambly-pambly sissies (also punishable by death).

Sincerely,

Ninjamom


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## Empty Hands (Feb 14, 2008)

Ninjamom said:


> If you want to discuss this issue you have to use language the Saudis can understand.



While I admire the spirit of what you are saying, in practice it has done little good.  The Islamists have a great deal of textual support from the Qu'ran and various hadith that can support whatever they want to do.  That is what it comes down to, in the end.  Very few people look to religion and then follow the commands, they look to religion to justify what they already want to do.


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## terryl965 (Feb 14, 2008)

Catalyst said:


> Unbelievable. Simply unbelievable.
> 
> How do you defend yourself against a crime which can't be disproven because it doesn't exist? (*I'm sure she was guilty until proven innocent.)*
> 
> ...


 
The bolded part is what I want to say but you did it so well.


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## Andy Moynihan (Feb 14, 2008)

The one thing we learn from history is that we don't.


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## grydth (Feb 14, 2008)

Perhaps Bush the Lesser and Bush the Least can once again remind us convinvingly that the Saudis _are our friends_... 

Beating confessions out of poor illiterates and having them 'sign' what they can't read.... aww, I bet they do that with all the girls! Hardly reliable. It's a shame they wouldn't let her be at her own trial - I bet the impotence testimony was a scream.

....and these are the moderate Saudis at work...it would be worthwhile to refresh ourselves with what Iran and the Taliban have wrought.

Having said all that, the "Reverend" Phelps clan that disrupt military funerals in anti-gay fervor..... well, they are American, not Saudi. The nutcases who kill people during exorcisms may seem to belong in Iran, but they are here among us. Historically, those were the Salem Witchcraft Trials, not Saudi. Finally, religious nuts are not the only nuts who can turn justice systems into circuses.


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## Sukerkin (Feb 14, 2008)

Your last sentence there is a truism, *Grydth* but I do reserve a special place of fear in my psyche for those that use the shroud of religion to further their ends (America included, no exemptions when it comes to mythical invisible sky-gods).

If we don't leave this sort of thing behind then, I predict, we're not going to 'make it' and might as well move over for the next Big Thing in evolutionary terms.


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## Andy Moynihan (Feb 14, 2008)

Sukerkin said:


> Your last sentence there is a truism, *Grydth* but I do reserve a special place of fear in my psyche for those that use the shroud of religion to further their ends (America included, no exemptions when it comes to mythical invisible sky-gods).
> 
> If we don't leave this sort of thing behind then, I predict, we're not going to 'make it' and might as well move over for the next Big Thing in evolutionary terms.


 

You can see it happening now.


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## Steel Tiger (Feb 14, 2008)

Sukerkin said:


> Your last sentence there is a truism, *Grydth* but I do reserve a special place of fear in my psyche for those that use the shroud of religion to further their ends (America included, no exemptions when it comes to mythical invisible sky-gods).
> 
> If we don't leave this sort of thing behind then, I predict, we're not going to 'make it' and might as well move over for the next Big Thing in evolutionary terms.


 
Well you know what they say,

Even nutters are afraid of religious nutters.


This is close-minded thinking, no matter where it comes from.  The ugly thing it is like a cockroach, it just won't die.  It 'forgot' Roman engineering, it stopped Chinese invention, it burned 75% of da Vinci's medical work, it shut down the Apollo program.  I agree, it could be what causes evolution to kick us under a bush and try again with something else, but I am at heart an optimist and like to think that we, as a species, will open ours minds again and start to consider _all _the possibilities.


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## MA-Caver (Feb 14, 2008)

Basically my first thought was that: It's THEIR country, their society and their right to do/live how they want to live/act. Who are we to condemn what is right for them? If the Saudi's, Iraqis, Iranians, Afgans, etc. want to live in the 16th century then who are we to say no they can't? If we (rest of the world) don't like it... who says we have to deal with them? Who says that we have to have any relations at all with them? ... 

Our gas guzzling automobiles that's who/what! So cut off relations with them and we'll all go back to horse and buggies eh? Or at least until after we deplete our own oil reserves. 

But of course it's neither here nor there is it? We want to insert our opinion of civilized behavior on to others and that's okay isn't it? It *is* barbaric and it *is* horrible, but we all knew/know that is how they treat/view women in *their* society. We (thankfully) do not. They don't like how we allow our women to show bare arms, legs and uncovered hair/heads while shopping for food or being in the work place. They don't love how we allow our women to wear two piece swimming ensembles in public places that wouldn't even keep an earthworm warm in the winter. 
Think they're going to listen, give in to OUR pleas? 

Too much damned negativity going on in the world.


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## Sukerkin (Feb 14, 2008)

Not a bad point of view actually, *Caver*.  Viewing other nations actions through our own cultural 'filter' *is* a dangerous excercise.

However, there are some moral positions that should be universal in a 'better' world and I think perhaps it is the jarring juxtapostion of the wealth and 'modern' technological sophistication of the ruling class versus the medieval attitudes shown here that throws sand in the gears of acceptance.

Witch-hunting in a country with more Mercs and BMW's per square foot than anywhere else serves to highlight why the invasion of Iraq went in the 'wrong' direction.  Saddam may have been a murderous sod (and he was no question) but he did so in a pragmatic fashion.  A dictatorship ruled with an iron fist is less 'scary' (because it's more amendable to reason) than a monarchy that persecutes 'witches'.


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## Cirdan (Feb 15, 2008)

Witches, demons, sinners, whatever.. we all feel better when we can have someone to hate and fear, burn him and be rewarded by the invisible man for out most holy act. Simple awnsers that keep us from screaming too much. Sigh


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## SageGhost83 (Feb 21, 2008)

I think this goes to show that there are indeed stupid people in this world and lots of them. All of the political correctness and multiculturalism in the world is not going to change that. Middle eastern women are still being indicted for witchcraft and Texas still has laws on the books that say you can only hold certain government positions if you are a christian. I am not even going to get into president bush telling us how god talked to him and how he is going to wage a crusade against the "enemies of freedom". The bad part is most christians and muslims are decent people who just want to get on with their lives. Sadly, it is the nutjobs who mess it all up for everybody. This is what happens when the stupid people are allowed to hold prominent positions within humanity's most prized institutions.


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## LuzRD (Feb 21, 2008)

SageGhost83 said:


> I think this goes to show that there are indeed stupid people in this world and lots of them. All of the political correctness and multiculturalism in the world is not going to change that. Middle eastern women are still being indicted for witchcraft and Texas still has laws on the books that say you can only hold certain government positions if you are a christian. I am not even going to get into president bush telling us how god talked to him and how he is going to wage a crusade against the "enemies of freedom". The bad part is most christians and muslims are decent people who just want to get on with their lives. Sadly, it is the nutjobs who mess it all up for everybody. This is what happens when the stupid people are allowed to hold prominent positions within humanity's most prized institutions.



well put! i didnt know about the texas "jesus jobs" or bush talking to "god" (wonder if he was smoking anything with Clinton when this happened)

"The bad part is most christians and muslims are decent people who just want to get on with their lives." :asian:


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## Ninjamom (Feb 22, 2008)

LuzRD said:


> well put! i didnt know about the texas "jesus jobs"


As far as I know, the last religious test for office was removed from the books in Texas decades ago (I remember when it was on the news, so it was within my lifetime)



> or bush talking to "god"


When asked about his decision to go to war with Iraq, Bush said that he had evaluated the evidence, consulted with his advisors and our allies, and prayed about it.  His intent was to communicate that this was a serious decision, not taken lightly, and made with only the gravest consideration of all the ramifications.  (And that is what it communicated to others like me, who take matters of faith seriously in daily life).  Certain elements ran with the 'prayed about it' part.  I have even seen it drastically distorted in media soundbites and on bumper stickers, to the point of saying that 'God told him' to invade Iraq.  As far as I know, he never said or implied any such thing.

Be careful of buying soundbites that bolster stereotypes already held.



> "The bad part is most christians and muslims are decent people who just want to get on with their lives." :asian:


I believe this to be true also.


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## LuzRD (Feb 22, 2008)

Ninjamom said:


> As far as I know, the last religious test for office was removed from the books in Texas decades ago (I remember when it was on the news, so it was within my lifetime)



I didnt see how it could be that certain religious beliefs could legally be a prerequisite to get any job, let alone government positions. Its not usually like me to just accept what im told, thank you for reminding me to stay alert!



Ninjamom said:


> When asked about his decision to go to war with Iraq, Bush said that he had evaluated the evidence, consulted with his advisors and our allies, and prayed about it.  His intent was to communicate that this was a serious decision, not taken lightly, and made with only the gravest consideration of all the ramifications.  (And that is what it communicated to others like me, who take matters of faith seriously in daily life).  Certain elements ran with the 'prayed about it' part.  I have even seen it drastically distorted in media soundbites and on bumper stickers, to the point of saying that 'God told him' to invade Iraq.  As far as I know, he never said or implied any such thing.
> 
> Be careful of buying soundbites that bolster stereotypes already held.
> 
> I believe this to be true also.



This DOES sound like the media to me, and i agree that its unlikely Bush ever said anything of the like. it seems politicians in general avoid making any religious statements like this. 
it would appear that my pleasure in questioning the government overruled my habit of questioning what im told. again thank you


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## Ahriman (May 12, 2008)

Bringing this topic up a bit.
Evolution is a nice thing. Humanity can't really decide to work AGAINST it or FOR it.
If we choose to work for it, stop curing diseases, start heavy research on genetic engineering, start destroying-eliminating any other culture than your own while sparing yours; this goes for all sides.
If we want to work against it... again, start heavy research on genetic engineering, cure all possible diseases, work out diplomatic solutions for problems, ensure equal rights for everyone and so on.
Both ways will end in world peace_ (how could you see the difference between living in a monocultural global monostate and living in a multicultural global alliance?)_, but only if the ways don't interfere. When they do... we have this. Some choose way1, some choose way2, and some choose both.
...
About beliefs: if you believe in God, then you believe in Satan as well. If you believe in the miracles done by Jesus and the saints, then you believe in the magic witches and wizards do or did. This is true for every religion, and not only for supernatural elements. I have only met a few people who knew what they believe in, and followed their religion. Not only parts of it, the whole. Some used to accurse Islam for the "martyrs go to heaven" part... but the same is present in Christianity as well. Martyrs fallen for God go to heaven, just as those who built God's empire. Hungarian saint Stephan _(our first Christian king)_ was rather close to a mass-murderer, made ethnic cleansings, killed a few of his relatives, yet - he is a saint, accepted by both Catholics and Orthodoxes. This is not necessarily a bad thing - the bad thing is when people take things out of context to prove their points.
...
I didn't mean to hurt anyone's personal opinions or belief, if any part of my post came across as such, my apologies.


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## Tez3 (May 12, 2008)

When my daughter was living in Dubai she said the rulers were very pleased with themselves there because they had decided stoning women to death for crimes like being raped, talking to a male not their relative and other crimes against men was to be redundant, they'd shoot them instead.


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## Ahriman (May 12, 2008)

Tez3: this is exactly what I meant at "the bad thing is when people take things out of context to prove their points"... I'm sure that somehow they can prove that they're right when doing so according to the Korán _(sry, always forget how to spell that in English, so I stick to the Hungarian spelling)_, while they're obviously wrong.
...
Hm, if it's true that when hell's full, dead walk the streets... in a few years we'll be having much fun with swords and bite-proof hauberks.artyon: A lot of normal people and some of the most "fundamentalist" religious guys will go to *their* hells if *their* religion is true - whatever it is. And it'll make full house in *all* hells. _(just joking - having a strange sense of humour)_


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