# Wing Chun powerless against aggressive boxers?



## kehcorpz (Aug 7, 2016)

Guys, I need your opinion on this.
I just watched this and I was pretty shocked that basically Master Wong said that a wing chun man
has no chance against a boxer!

Also Wong only defends himself and tries to keep the boxer away!

I am really kinda shocked. I mean have you *EVER* seen a wing chun instruction video where they
show all these fancy deflections where they had a boxer who attacked like this? I have never seen this!
Compared to this here the instruction videos are ABSOLUTELY unrealistic!

In the videos the attacker stands right before the wing chun guy. He's not being aggressive. He throws
a punch and the wing chun guy deflects and then attacks him and that's it. It makes it look like wing chun
can handle a boxer very well.

But now look at reality.


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## wckf92 (Aug 7, 2016)

Oh FFS

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## kehcorpz (Aug 7, 2016)

Is this all you can say in reply to this?


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## drop bear (Aug 7, 2016)

Do boxing.


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## kehcorpz (Aug 7, 2016)

But I don't want to do boxing! Besides this I think that most of the aggressive bullies which attack people
would naturally do boxing. I don't want to go to a school and then meet these very people which I want to be able
to defend against. Yuck. I don't even want to see these creeps.


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## drop bear (Aug 7, 2016)

You naturally bully people in boxing you will get your face punched in.

Watch the movie creed. It will give you an indication of why your average boxer is better than your average chunster.

Actually this is even simpler to explain.

If you are bad at wing chun long enough this happens.






If you are bad enough at boxing long enough this happens.


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## Danny T (Aug 7, 2016)

Actually Wong gives an example of how 'He' uses his wing chun to defend verses an aggressive boxer. He also says it is dangerous but a wing chun man can defend against the boxer. He states at the end the 'if' the wing man is not up to a good standard the boxer will be a problem and that one must train and train properly to understand the boxer attacks.

Again one must practice, learn and understand range, timing, and angles.


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## Nobody Important (Aug 7, 2016)

Kehcorpz, 
What is your reason for wanting to study a martial art? Self defense, fighting, exercise, form training, comradery.....what?
If you want realistic fighting skill the training will be vastly different from the others. Not many teachers, in my experience, offer more than one or two aspects of an art. Most CMA teachers are traditional & unfortunately hard hitting fighting skill is neglected. Most schools not in MMA don't focus on it, mostly for insurance reasons. Taking fighting advice from someone who doesn't fight or has never fought competitively (and I'm not talking point sparring here but knockout competition) is like taking piano lessons from someone who has never played the piano, but can read music. So take what they have to say with a grain of salt, no matter their celebrity or standing in the Mo Lum. Sparring & fighting are very different, one is a learning session the other a life lesson.


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## Red Sun (Aug 7, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> But I don't want to do boxing! Besides this I think that most of the aggressive bullies which attack people
> would naturally do boxing. I don't want to go to a school and then meet these very people which I want to be able
> to defend against. Yuck. I don't even want to see these creeps.



So, you're hiding from them?


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## Kickboxer101 (Aug 8, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> But I don't want to do boxing! Besides this I think that most of the aggressive bullies which attack people
> would naturally do boxing. I don't want to go to a school and then meet these very people which I want to be able
> to defend against. Yuck. I don't even want to see these creeps.



Yeah I'm sure they don't want to see you either I don't think anyone on this board wants to see you either. You really are dumb you're getting annoyed when people won't answer you well we all tried to help you first few times now your just taking the piss either train and learn from your instructor or don't train and stop wasting everyone's time and oh it's not master Wong it's Wong since he's not your master so you don't call him master


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## Red Sun (Aug 8, 2016)

Kickboxer101 said:


> oh it's not master Wong it's Wong since he's not your master so you don't call him master



Fun fact: Master Wong has 1703 videos on Youtube


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## anerlich (Aug 9, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> But I don't want to do boxing! Besides this I think that most of the aggressive bullies which attack people
> would naturally do boxing. I don't want to go to a school and then meet these very people which I want to be able
> to defend against. Yuck. I don't even want to see these creeps.



I though you said on another thread that all you wanted to do was crush your enemies? I might have got that wrong, but life's too short for me to bother going back and check your previous post.

Boxers generally prevail because they train HARD, do loads of cardio and conditioning, and get used to giving and receiving contact. That is the main reason why boxers do well and are a real problem for those without the same commitment.

Relatively few kung fu guys train as hard or the same way. Some do. The good ones in my experience will cross train with boxers or kickboxers in any case and have similar regimens as part of their training.

So you have hard trainers, those that train less hard, and a third class whose sole experience is watching YouTube videos and asking dumb questions about them. Sound like anyone we know?

Boxers are not generally more aggressive than anybody else. If they are competing, they generally try to avoid fights as legal trouble can affect their ability to compete. Plus they are too wasted from training. A situation you will never find yourself in because you will never train.


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## dudewingchun (Aug 9, 2016)

Can someone just ban this guy


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## Paul_D (Aug 9, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> Guys, I need your opinion on this.
> I just watched this and I was pretty shocked that basically Master Wong said that a wing chun man
> has no chance against a boxer!


Unless you live in an area of the world where boxers routinely patrol the streets looking for Wing Chun people to beat up, is it ever going to be an issue?


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## wckf92 (Aug 9, 2016)

dudewingchun said:


> Can someone just ban this guy


Oh pretty please

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## anerlich (Aug 9, 2016)

dudewingchun said:


> Can someone just ban this guy



Nah. He's keeping the forum active at least.


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## yak sao (Aug 9, 2016)

Paul_D said:


> Unless you live in an area of the world where boxers routinely patrol the streets looking for Wing Chun people to beat up, is it ever going to be an issue?



I think you just came up with the plot for a great kung fu movie. Now we've just got to come up with a title


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## drop bear (Aug 9, 2016)

yak sao said:


> I think you just came up with the plot for a great kung fu movie. Now we've just got to come up with a title



East timor has had issues with martial arts gangs.


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## Argus (Aug 11, 2016)

yak sao said:


> I think you just came up with the plot for a great kung fu movie. Now we've just got to come up with a title



"Ip Man 7: The Boxer Rebellion"


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## Jake104 (Aug 11, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Do boxing.


I agree but at a certain level there's not much difference. A punch becomes a punch and so on.. The key for a WC guy though, is learning to generate the power using WC body mechanics. Again at a certain level it's just subtle differences but same results.. Only trained eye can spot.. A Good "fighters" movements become so small or subtle that it all can kind of look the same at the end.. I think what too many look for in the differential between boxing and WC is the obvious stuff like fist angle hips footwork etc.. That's not what I look at. In good boxing I look for tight movement i.e. targeting centerline and constant forward energy . In good WC I look for same thing.


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## mograph (Aug 11, 2016)

Argus said:


> "Ip Man 7: The Boxer Rebellion"


It won't be brief.
But it might be a short.


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## Juany118 (Aug 11, 2016)

Danny T said:


> Actually Wong gives an example of how 'He' uses his wing chun to defend verses an aggressive boxer. He also says it is dangerous but a wing chun man can defend against the boxer. He states at the end the 'if' the wing man is not up to a good standard the boxer will be a problem and that one must train and train properly to understand the boxer attacks.
> 
> Again one must practice, learn and understand range, timing, and angles.



Izzo says something similar.  He also makes it clear that you have to go in FAST and hard bridging that gap ASAP, essentially flooding them and not being afraid to take a hit when you do so (overly simplistic but that is the short form).  If you don't you essentially are begging the boxer to simply "go to work" on you.  Thing is most schools train students to fight different styles.  Now this isn't always a bad thing because some Martial arts share the same basic strategy but if you are thinking about taking on a boxer you can fight him like you would another WC practitioner in class.  I think the problem lies in something someone else once said (I can't remember who) that WC has become a "chi sau culture" in many corners.

@anerlich also makes good points regarding conditioning, cardio and learning to take hits.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 11, 2016)

anerlich said:


> Nah. He's keeping the forum active at least.


Not in any useful way.


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## mograph (Aug 11, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Not in any useful way.


High noise, low signal.

(Yeah, I know -- I should talk.)


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## SaulGoodman (Aug 11, 2016)

Anyone who has taken the time to spar with a boxer (an actively training one, not a fellow student playing being a boxer) will benefit hugely from the experience. Didn't like the getting a sore a head bit but it helped (and helps) in the development of my skillset.


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## Hanzou (Aug 17, 2016)

drop bear said:


>



What pisses me off about that vid is that he could spend a very short amount of time in a proper grappling art and learn more practical methods instead of just making crap up.


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## SaulGoodman (Aug 17, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> What pisses me off about that vid is that he could spend a very short amount of time in a proper grappling art and learn more practical methods instead of just making crap up.


That is a classic example of someone who wants people to think their art has an answer for every range without ever actually testing it. Beyond embarrassing, as Hanzou said a novice grappler with solid fundamentals would destroy this guy on the ground. An old instructor of mine once told me "teach what you KNOW not what you THINK you know".


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## Red Sun (Aug 17, 2016)

SaulGoodman said:


> That is a classic example of someone who wants people to think their art has an answer for every range without ever actually testing it. Beyond embarrassing, as Hanzou said a novice grappler with solid fundamentals would destroy this guy on the ground. An old instructor of mine once told me "teach what you KNOW not what you THINK you know".



...if you don't mind me adding to the addage: "Teach what you KNOW, not what you THINK you know and not what you WANT to know."


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## SaulGoodman (Aug 17, 2016)

Also this is a widespread thing imo, I corresponded briefly with Dominic Izzo after he had said somewhere that a good Wc man doesn't need formal grappling skills to be effective on the ground. I asked if he was really serious and he was like "absolutely, snt contains all the ground fighting you need" (paraphrasing here). I didn't continue the conversation at this point as I guessed that he must have missed watching the first 20 ufc's...


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## Juany118 (Aug 17, 2016)

SaulGoodman said:


> Also this is a widespread thing imo, I corresponded briefly with Dominic Izzo after he had said somewhere that a good Wc man doesn't need formal grappling skills to be effective on the ground. I asked if he was really serious and he was like "absolutely, snt contains all the ground fighting you need" (paraphrasing here). I didn't continue the conversation at this point as I guessed that he must have missed watching the first 20 ufc's...



Izzo sure as hell has a level of arrogance when it comes to grappling that is silly, hell in general, and he is luckily honest about that.  Where he is dead on though, and it relates directly to the boxing thing, is that WC in a real fight cant be Chi Sau like BS.  You have to go in period.  WC is about "the best defense is a good offense." If you don't go in with serious intent, close that gap and attack, be willing to take a hit, you are going to be at a disadvantage.  That isn't making crap up, that is how WC works.  

On an aside I would also wonder if, in your conversation, he was referring to "his" WC because I remember an old video where he had a guy showing how to integrate sprawling in order to avoid takes downs etc. 

However the lack of ground game is, in part, why I also study Inosanto Kali since that has some ground game to it (along with the weapons, which is relevant to my job.)


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## SaulGoodman (Aug 17, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> Izzo sure as hell has a level of arrogance when it comes to grappling that is silly, hell in general, and he is luckily honest about that.  Where he is dead on though, and it relates directly to the boxing thing, is that WC in a real fight cant be Chi Sau like BS.  You have to go in period.  WC is about "the best defense is a good offense." If you don't go in with serious intent, close that gap and attack, be willing to take a hit, you are going to be at a disadvantage.  That isn't making crap up, that is how WC works.
> 
> On an aside I would also wonder if, in your conversation, he was referring to "his" WC because I remember an old video where he had a guy showing how to integrate sprawling in order to avoid takes downs etc.
> 
> However the lack of ground game is, in part, why I also study Inosanto Kali since that has some ground game to it (along with the weapons, which is relevant to my job.)


No, he was talking about Wc in general, show me where the sprawl in snt is and I will quit training grappling. Izzo is just paying lip service to what most practitioners say regarding all out offense/forward pressure etc when using Wc for real. I lost what (little) opinion I had of Izzo after I saw him play chi Sao with that Danny Horgan clown....


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## Juany118 (Aug 17, 2016)

SaulGoodman said:


> No, he was talking about Wc in general, show me where the sprawl in snt is and I will quit training grappling. Izzo is just paying lip service to what most practitioners say regarding all out offense/forward pressure etc when using Wc for real. I lost what (little) opinion I had of Izzo after I saw him play chi Sao with that Danny Horgan clown....



Well he isn't playing lip service because look at tan, bong, gaun etc.  They are all forwarding energies.  You can not effectively apply a forwarding energy while you are retreating.  On dealing with boxing he is right on.  My Sifu says the same thing AND isn't a fan of Izzo in the least either.  This isn't to say you attack stupidly, that you don't try to get to the blind side, but the "best defense is the best offense" idea comes not just from my Sifu but With Keith Mazza, Grand Master Cheung's US Rep (I attended one of his seminars once as he is my Sifu's Sifu.

Don't know anything about Horgan or the video you are talking about.  I have only watched about 5 of Izzo's because his attitude gets on my nerves.  The boxing wrestling and a couple on LE tactics are above as far as I got.

Onto grappling

As for the grappling bit it is why I said "his WC."  Izzo repeatedly talks about how he was first a wrestler, how that is his passion.  There is a video from like 4 years ago where he shows what amount to wrestling techniques but what he refers to as consistent with WC because it involves the application of a few WC techniques with a different body structure (basically what you would expect from a wrestler).  He excuses this by saying "remember all of my videos are conceptual based." Do I think that is a stretch of my idea of WC being a conceptual martial art?  Yep.  However remember, he is an arrogant opinionated SOB who often also says "my WC is not their WC." So you and I might not call it WC but he sees it as part of "his" WC so when he answers the question he is being honest, from what he sees as the WC he teaches.  Not defending the guy on this point btw, I would tend to agree it's not the WC I know.


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## Juany118 (Aug 17, 2016)

Okay found Horgan's website.  He is more than a  clown.  Not sure what he is but clown just doesn't describe it.


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## SaulGoodman (Aug 17, 2016)

When you say "more than a clown" I sincerely hope you don't think this guy has any ability...


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 17, 2016)

SaulGoodman said:


> When you say "more than a clown" I sincerely hope you don't think this guy has any ability...


I think he meant "beyond being a clown" - as in more clowny than a clown.


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## SaulGoodman (Aug 17, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I think he meant "beyond being a clown" - as in more clowny than a clown.


Yeah I hoped that was the case


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## drop bear (Aug 17, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> What pisses me off about that vid is that he could spend a very short amount of time in a proper grappling art and learn more practical methods instead of just making crap up.



He could but the whole point is he doesn't have to.  He can go through life being a crap grappler and it will be the same for him as if he was a good one.

Nobody is ever going to throw him to the ground and submit him any time soon.

Your average boxer as an example someone really will be trying to knock them out.


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## Juany118 (Aug 17, 2016)

SaulGoodman said:


> When you say "more than a clown" I sincerely hope you don't think this guy has any ability...



Oh HELL NO.  I literally mean it is a term inadequate to described the simultaneous feelings of disbelief and shock I had at such epic failure.  Clowns to me result in laughter.  I couldn't laugh because what I saw was too tragic.

If it was satire I would agree clown but I think the guy actually is serious.


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## SaulGoodman (Aug 17, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> Oh HELL NO.  I literally mean it is a term inadequate to described the simultaneous feelings of disbelief and shock I had at such epic failure.  Clowns to me result in laughter.  I couldn't laugh because what I saw was too tragic.
> 
> If it was satire I would agree clown but I think the guy actually is serious.


Ha, you come across as being a little too savvy to be a fan of that guy! I'm curious about what elenents of your Kali training help with ground fighting Juany. Do you focus on using Kali to prevent going to the ground and/or work on escapes from positions like mount/side control/kesa gatame ?


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## Juany118 (Aug 17, 2016)

SaulGoodman said:


> Ha, you come across as being a little too savvy to be a fan of that guy! I'm curious about what elenents of your Kali training help with ground fighting Juany. Do you focus on using Kali to prevent going to the ground and/or work on escapes from positions like mount/side control/kesa gatame ?



Well Inosanto Kali actually has ground fighting because it's like JKD (something like 26 different MAs, but much of them are FMA) Not as much as say Jujutsu but it has take downs, "ground and pound", basic locks like arm bars, but also some vicious eye gouging etc.  Guro Dan refers to it as a "Mixed Martial Arts Concept" as opposed to the sport.

However while trained in the others I personally focus on the bits that are useful for self-defense, imo, and my job.  Being on the ground can be damn dangerous on the street (multiple people, concrete and tile are hard, furniture etc), my career adds the imperative of weapon retention.  So I focus on the training regarding avoiding going to the ground period.  If it's inevitable going there on my terms so I can recover ASAP (and still be attacking and defending on the way down and up) or at least, once on the ground, be in a position to keep the "bad guy" from coming down to join me with foot/leg techniques etc.  If I have to fight on the ground I can and will but my first goal in training and in practice is to avoid it.

I really think with ground fighting you need to look at your purpose.


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## anerlich (Aug 17, 2016)

SaulGoodman said:


> show me where the sprawl in snt is and I will quit training grappling



I think the "argument" here is that the basic YGKYM stance itself represents a sprawl. The hips drive forward. Pull a YGKYM in a horizontal plane on top of someone shooting for a double leg (the sum total of what most non grapplers seem to think you have to defend against) and you are in effect sprawling.

To extrapolate that out to saying that practising SLT/SNT all day will equip you to avoid any and all takedowns is obviously ludicrous.

Back in about 1995, before my instructor parted ways with him, William Cheung demonstrated a defence against a takedown that was more or less a sprawl. He wrapped both arms around the guy's waist (which is much less effective than, say, a wrestling front headlock, and, one might say, is a typical rookie mistake) and kicked his legs back, not nearly far enough.

Would this work against guys in your WC club who don't know zip about effective takedowns trying to tackle you? Probably. Would it work against any decent high school level wrestler? Highly unlikely.

I wouldn't quit training grappling just yet.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 17, 2016)

drop bear said:


> You naturally bully people in boxing you will get your face punched in.
> 
> Watch the movie creed. It will give you an indication of why your average boxer is better than your average chunster.
> 
> ...


That was really bad Wing Chun. That what people do when trying to figure out technique applications.  The real failure is that they don't test their assumptions by increasing the speed of the attack. To be honest, I don't think many people like that actually care about it working so long as they look important and cash a check.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 17, 2016)

Danny T said:


> Actually Wong gives an example of how 'He' uses his wing chun to defend verses an aggressive boxer. He also says it is dangerous but a wing chun man can defend against the boxer. He states at the end the 'if' the wing man is not up to a good standard the boxer will be a problem and that one must train and train properly to understand the boxer attacks.
> 
> Again one must practice, learn and understand range, timing, and angles.


I guess this is why CMAs tried to keep things secret. It's easier to fight against a system when you understand what attacks are being used against you when compared to attacks that are totally new and unknown.


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## Juany118 (Aug 17, 2016)

anerlich said:


> I think the "argument" here is that the basic YGKYM stance itself represents a sprawl. The hips drive forward. Pull a YGKYM in a horizontal plane on top of someone shooting for a double leg (the sum total of what most non grapplers seem to think you have to defend against) and you are in effect sprawling.
> 
> To extrapolate that out to saying that practising SLT/SNT all day will equip you to avoid any and all takedowns is obviously ludicrous.
> 
> ...



I agree.  I think the issue is how far are you willing to take the concept "WC is a conceptual martial art" take it as far as Izzo does, it works.  Ultimately WC can be boiled down to the centerline and forwarding energy.  So in the video I saw of him he was, weirdly, wrestling and Wing Chuning at the same time.  I really still don't know what to think of it.  He had a wrestling stance but was clearly maintaining WC centerline and even using WC hand and arm techniques.

That said, I hope, the Grand Master of my Sifu was showing a practical self defense technique with what he did because, as you said, a formally trained grappler would be able to avoid that, I have seen it as well and it made me cringe.  Luckily you aren't likely to be mugged by a purple belt in BJJ.


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## Danny T (Aug 17, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> I guess this is why CMAs tried to keep things secret. It's easier to fight against a system when you understand what attacks are being used against you when compared to attacks that are totally new and unknown.


Yeah...and is why pro fighters study their opponents.


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## anerlich (Aug 17, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> That said, I hope, the Grand Master of my Sifu was showing a practical self defense technique with what he did because, as you said, a formally trained grappler would be able to avoid that, I have seen it as well and it made me cringe.



Well. William Cheung is my Sigung as well. I have an instructor's certificate from him I got in 1995. I'd have more respect for him if he just said "I don't really know much about grappling and if you are worried about it, go train with grapplers," rather than teaching a defence I recognise now was a basic, poorly executed, and easily countered version of a wrestling technique, with the implication that learning to grapple is a waste of time.

No martial art, even if you are a grandmaster thereof, can possibly have an immediate answer to every combat problem and system, including those that came after it and those yet to be invented.


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## anerlich (Aug 17, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> I guess this is why CMAs tried to keep things secret. It's easier to fight against a system when you understand what attacks are being used against you when compared to attacks that are totally new and unknown.



The problem with secrets is that until they are exposed to a variety of opponents you can't tell for sure whether they will be effective or not.


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## Juany118 (Aug 17, 2016)

anerlich said:


> Well. William Cheung is my Sigung as well. I have an instructor's certificate from him I got in 1995. I'd have more respect for him if he just said "I don't really know much about grappling and if you are worried about it, go train with grapplers," rather than teaching a defence I recognise now was a basic, poorly executed, and easily countered version of a wrestling technique, with the implication that learning to grapple is a waste of time.
> 
> No martial art, even if you are a grandmaster thereof, can possibly have an immediate answer to every combat problem and system, including those that came after it and those yet to be invented.



Tbh I wonder if my Sifu set up his school with this is mind.  He got permission from Sigung Cheung to teach WC and Kali in tandem (though WC testing must be in front of Sifu Mazza, my Sifu is a Mataw-Guro in Kali so we test Kali with him). Maybe it was to fill in the gaps so to speak?  He was a LE Operator serving drug warrants and raiding Motor Cycle gang bars etc. before he became an instructor in martial arts.  So this makes sense to me as he will think practical application.


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## anerlich (Aug 17, 2016)

I don't know but I would imagine so.

My instructor has a black belt in Kyokushin Karate and a brown belt in BJJ. He's also spent considerable time learning wrestling, and knife and firearm combatives.

My first MA teacher was an eclectic kung fu stylist. As far as stylistic purity goes, I was ruined from the start.

My current obsession is Jiu Jitsu, but no one sensible claims it or any art to be 100% complete. Good arts continue to evolve anyway, and as such the notion of "completeness" doesn't fit.

Can an incomplete art still be effective self defence? Definitely.


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## drop bear (Aug 18, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> I agree.  I think the issue is how far are you willing to take the concept "WC is a conceptual martial art" take it as far as Izzo does, it works.  Ultimately WC can be boiled down to the centerline and forwarding energy.  So in the video I saw of him he was, weirdly, wrestling and Wing Chuning at the same time.  I really still don't know what to think of it.  He had a wrestling stance but was clearly maintaining WC centerline and even using WC hand and arm techniques.
> 
> That said, I hope, the Grand Master of my Sifu was showing a practical self defense technique with what he did because, as you said, a formally trained grappler would be able to avoid that, I have seen it as well and it made me cringe.  Luckily you aren't likely to be mugged by a purple belt in BJJ.



The thing is the double leg is about the first move you will learn.  And the first move you learn to defend.  And it is a move used and defended by top grapplers. 

So there isnt a purple belt version or even a metamoris version.  It is the same basic move done better. 

So learning that basic move carries though your entire martial arts progression.


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## Juany118 (Aug 18, 2016)

anerlich said:


> I don't know but I would imagine so.
> 
> My instructor has a black belt in Kyokushin Karate and a brown belt in BJJ. He's also spent considerable time learning wrestling, and knife and firearm combatives.
> 
> ...



I think the last point is an important distinction.  There is a difference between learning self defense and studying martial arts.  The former had a definite goal, the later has no end because every culture has a means of "street" defense where as every culture also has martial arts.  It's like saying "I want to learn math" (a universal) vs "I want learn how to communicate" (just think of the languages to learn).


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## senseiblackbelt (Aug 18, 2016)

ffs. thnkfully ididnt do wing chun.


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## geezer (Aug 18, 2016)

anerlich said:


> Back in about 1995, before my instructor parted ways with him, William Cheung demonstrated a defence against a takedown that was more or less a sprawl. He wrapped both arms around the guy's waist (which is much less effective than, say, a wrestling front headlock, and, one might say, is a typical rookie mistake) and kicked his legs back, not nearly far enough.
> 
> Would this work against guys in your WC club who don't know zip about effective takedowns trying to tackle you? Probably. Would it work against any decent high school level wrestler? Highly unlikely.



Excellent post. Back in the 80's my old sifu, Leung Ting, demonstrated his anti-grappling and anti-takedown defenses. Somewhat different techniques than you describe William Cheung demonstrating, but the upshot was the same. I pity the fool that tries to use that stuff against a good grappler. 

Despite the cheesy quality of LT's promotional material, he had some really good WC (what he called WT of course). William Cheung had good stuff too, although no right headed "WT" guy would ever admit it. But for reasons of ego and profit, neither of these guys would admit the limitations of WC. And look what that has done to the reputation of the art. 

People don't realize that WC is a great art within it's niche, and if you approach it conceptually, it_ is_ very adaptable to cross-training with certain other arts such as grappling as well as weapon-oriented arts like FMA. IMO this is the way WC should be approached. Your post inspires me to get more serious about my grappling...even at my age!


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## geezer (Aug 18, 2016)

senseiblackbelt said:


> ffs. thnkfully ididnt do wing chun.



*?*


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## KPM (Aug 18, 2016)

^^^ He evidently didn't learn how to use a keyboard either!


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## drop bear (Aug 18, 2016)

geezer said:


> Excellent post. Back in the 80's my old sifu, Leung Ting, demonstrated his anti-grappling and anti-takedown defenses. Somewhat different techniques than you describe William Cheung demonstrating, but the upshot was the same. I pity the fool that tries to use that stuff against a good grappler.
> 
> Despite the cheesy quality of LT's promotional material, he had some really good WC (what he called WT of course). William Cheung had good stuff too, although no right headed "WT" guy would ever admit it. But for reasons of ego and profit, neither of these guys would admit the limitations of WC. And look what that has done to the reputation of the art.
> 
> People don't realize that WC is a great art within it's niche, and if you approach it conceptually, it_ is_ very adaptable to cross-training with certain other arts such as grappling as well as weapon-oriented arts like FMA. IMO this is the way WC should be approached. Your post inspires me to get more serious about my grappling...even at my age!



Trying to cross train outside your system will mean that you have to change a few of your basic principles. 

So trying to wrestle with a bunch of wing chun rules will just make you crap at both.


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## geezer (Aug 18, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Trying to cross train outside your system will mean that you have to change a few of your basic principles. So trying to wrestle with a bunch of wing chun rules will just make you crap at both.



...So you change the rules . I'm all for concepts and such, but _functionality_ is the bottom line.


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## Juany118 (Aug 18, 2016)

geezer said:


> ...So you change the rules . I'm all for concepts and such, but _functionality_ is the bottom line.



Exactly.  I also think people sometimes get principles and techniques confused.  A perfect example is the WC Centerline principle.  With every Martial art you want to protect your center.  While some Martial arts also include some wide oblique attacks, many/most attack via the centerline plane.  Also most martial arts follow the concept of attacking the opponent's center.  This doesn't mean just "striking" it though, disrupting/controlling/unbalancing the center. Now WC typically does this with strikes BUT an Aikido practitioner does the same thing with its throws and takedowns, as does a Jujutsu practitioner etc.

Structure, the method of striking, these are techniques that WC applies to the Centerline principle.  This I idea I think can be applied to any Martial art.


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## drop bear (Aug 19, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> Exactly.  I also think people sometimes get principles and techniques confused.  A perfect example is the WC Centerline principle.  With every Martial art you want to protect your center.  While some Martial arts also include some wide oblique attacks, many/most attack via the centerline plane.  Also most martial arts follow the concept of attacking the opponent's center.  This doesn't mean just "striking" it though, disrupting/controlling/unbalancing the center. Now WC typically does this with strikes BUT an Aikido practitioner does the same thing with its throws and takedowns, as does a Jujutsu practitioner etc.
> 
> Structure, the method of striking, these are techniques that WC applies to the Centerline principle.  This I idea I think can be applied to any Martial art.



Would have thought a good sprawl worked exactly the opposite to center line. As you are both kind of moving in circles and almost trying to free up the center


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## senseiblackbelt (Aug 19, 2016)

KPM said:


> ^^^ He evidently didn't learn how to use a keyboard either!


lol. where are laughing emojis?


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## senseiblackbelt (Aug 19, 2016)

geezer said:


> *?*



basically im saying im thankful i didnt do wing chun.


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## drop bear (Aug 19, 2016)

senseiblackbelt said:


> lol. where are laughing emojis?




Use giffs They may require a bit more work. But the effect is worth it.


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## geezer (Aug 19, 2016)

senseiblackbelt said:


> basically im saying im thankful i didnt do wing chun.




I think that's a bit of a _non sequitur_ to our discussion. Wing Chun properly applied is a very effective martial art, but like any art, it has it's limitations.


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## anerlich (Aug 20, 2016)

senseiblackbelt said:


> basically im saying im thankful i didnt do wing chun.



If you're only thirteen per your profile, you haven't really done a lot of anything


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## senseiblackbelt (Aug 21, 2016)

anerlich said:


> If you're only thirteen per your profile, you haven't really done a lot of anything



i don't understand what you mean


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## Tez3 (Aug 21, 2016)

senseiblackbelt said:


> i don't understand what you mean



At 13 years old you simply don't have the experience to be able to judge any martial art not even your own actually.


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## drop bear (Aug 21, 2016)

The dude can have an opinion. This isnt the Japanese martial arts section.


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## KangTsai (Aug 21, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> But I don't want to do boxing! Besides this I think that most of the aggressive bullies which attack people
> would naturally do boxing. I don't want to go to a school and then meet these very people which I want to be able
> to defend against. Yuck. I don't even want to see these creeps.


Depends where you live. Unless you live in a harlem or hood there won't be many "bullies." This is an unfortunate stereotype for western martial arts and most of the time, isn't true.


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## Tez3 (Aug 21, 2016)

drop bear said:


> The dude can have an opinion. This isnt the Japanese martial arts section.



Haha. However if he wants to disrespect an style ( and that's not allowed on here) he'd better be able to back up his opinion. If it were MMA he'd said that about, you'd be there like a shot. 'Gee I'm glad I don't train MMA because it's useless'.


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## drop bear (Aug 21, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Haha. However if he wants to disrespect an style ( and that's not allowed on here) he'd better be able to back up his opinion. If it were MMA he'd said that about, you'd be there like a shot. 'Gee I'm glad I don't train MMA because it's useless'.



Neither is trolling.  Which is discrediting him based on him being a 13 year old and not on his statement.
(Play the ball not the man)

But otherwise no. People can like or dislike any martial art they want. It is when their reasoning is wrong that rules me up.

If say someone dosent like mma because they think rash vests are stupid I am fine with that. If they dislike mma because punching people in the street makes your fists shatter. Then that is incorrect and I will counter that.


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## Tez3 (Aug 21, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Neither is trolling. Which is discrediting him based on him being a 13 year old and not on his statement.



Why are you mentioning trolling? I didn't. I haven't discredited him either. I said, if you read it, that *IF* he wants to discredit a style he'd better be able to back up his opinion. Do you think he wants to be treated like a small child or as someone who can post his opinion and be able to give his reasons as an intelligent person?


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## drop bear (Aug 21, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Why are you mentioning trolling? I didn't. I haven't discredited him either. I said, if you read it, that *IF* he wants to discredit a style he'd better be able to back up his opinion. Do you think he wants to be treated like a small child or as someone who can post his opinion and be able to give his reasons as an intelligent person?



Look I understand that as a girl you don't get complex issues like martial arts. How about you leave this discussion to us guys.

(See what I did there?)


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## Tez3 (Aug 21, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Look I understand that as a girl you don't get complex issues like martial arts. How about you leave this discussion to us guys.
> 
> (See what I did there?)



Yep, misunderstood the context of what I was saying as it was you who was patronising the poster not me then you made a comment that had absolutely nothing to do with anything so embarrassed yourself........... again.


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## drop bear (Aug 21, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Yep, misunderstood the context of what I was saying as it was you who was patronising the poster not me then you made a comment that had absolutely nothing to do with anything so embarrassed yourself........... again.


*
At 13 years old you simply don't have the experience to be able to judge any martial art not even your own actually.*
*
*


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## Tez3 (Aug 21, 2016)

drop bear said:


> *At 13 years old you simply don't have the experience to be able to judge any martial art not even your own actually.
> *



Well, has he? Of course he hasn't. That, as everyone but you can see is a true statement.
Stop making a fuss about nothing, you are obviously smarting from the verbal beat down by Chris and like the cabin boy kicking the cat have come to stir up trouble here. There's nothing to see here, the poster doesn't need you to speak for him, allow him to do that for himself.


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## drop bear (Aug 21, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Well, has he? Of course he hasn't. That, as everyone but you can see is a true statement.
> Stop making a fuss about nothing, you are obviously smarting from the verbal beat down by Chris and like the cabin boy kicking the cat have come to stir up trouble here. There's nothing to see here, the poster doesn't need you to speak for him, allow him to do that for himself.



But conversation isn't sparring huh?

And no it is not a true statement. How old to you have to be to decide you like one martial art over another?


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## Tez3 (Aug 21, 2016)

drop bear said:


> But conversation isn't sparring huh?
> 
> And no it is not a true statement. How old to you have to be to decide you like one martial art over another?



Like? yeah whatever.  go find someone who will play these games with you, it's boring.


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