# What is Self Defense? (Kenpo-Jiu Jitsu)



## Karazenpo

My 'kempo brother' Dan Weston was gracious enough to give me a copy of James M. Mitose's: What is Self Defense? (Kenpo Jiu-Jitsu) and for that I sincerely thank him. I have gone over this book pretty thorough so far and there's much more in the book than the breakdown on the Tracy website. Here's what I have found:

The book consists of the following breakdown of technique (curriculum):

1) 11 punching & striking defenses

2) 7 kicking defenses

3) 26 escape defenses (grab arts)

4) 8 lock, break & throw defenses

5) 17 weapon defenses (knife, sword-which could double for a club & gun) 

6) 20 women & girls defenses

So, far, it looks like a pretty extensive curriuclum to me, especially taken into consideration it was written in 1947. There's 69 self defense techniques with an additional 20 tailored to females for a total of 89 techniques.

There is also a section of 7 kenpo exercises for punching, striking including forearms and elbows and another section devoted to 4 kicking exercises, the fourth combining punching & kicking. That's all the physical.

A close scrutiny of these techniques show a 'core' similiaritiy with all the Hawaiian derived Kenpo/Kempo systems in existence today. It's all in black & white, objectively speaking. It's all there. The rudiments, the foundation, the basic structure and framework. Just add the evolution of 'continuous motion' with increased rapid fire striking from the kung fu influences of the succeeding teachers of this kenpo through the lineage and it is very clear that this system is the root art of these contemporary kenpo/kempo arts.

Now, the philosophy of Mitose in this publication is everything every parent would want their child to learn from a martial art. I'll go out on the limb to say it's is A #1 in anyone's opinion! HOWEVER, AND THIS IS A BIG HOWEVER, this philosophy is totally hypocritical of the way Mitose lived his life! Not even close. It's the old 'do as I say, not as I do' or simply one failing to 'practice what they preach'. It's really too bad because the book really has it together. If one didn't know better they could never connect the crimes committed by Mitose to the author of this book. It seems like he had a split personality.

Again, it's a damn good curriculum, even by today's standards. If someone today learned the techniques in that book and added continuous motion and more rapid fire hits or essentially principles and concepts of the Chinese arts, you'd have a damn good system. I'd update the weapon defenses a little, especially knife and gun to what we have learned over the years but still a good solid base to start with. Some have said these techniques were taken from Okinawan Kenpo Karate and the book of Mutzu but others have said that Mitose learned from an instructor of the Motobu lineage (Nabura Tanamaha). Sijo Adriano D. Emperado when posed a question from myself asked by Professor Gerry Scott: Could Mitose's knowledge and skill be that of someone who had studied only the surface arts and evolved it through his natural abilities? Sijo Emperado stated: 'Mitose's abilities was that of a master instructor'. 

It was also very interesting to note that on Otcober 4, 1947, Tautao (Rubberman) Higami, then president of the Hawaii Judo Kan & middleweight wrestling champion of the world who stated in a letter he carefully scrutinized and studied the manuscript of this book and gave it an excellent review and recommendation congratulating Mitose on his effort and wishing him to succeed in his endeavors. *Note: Tautao Higami was also a teacher of Sijo Victor 'Sonny' Gascon from around 1945 to 1949 making his first level cerification in judo.

All in all, this book is worth reading. (I have the fourth printing, 2nd edition 1981 which is the orignal manuscript with new 'Introductory Notes' by Bruce Juchnik, Rick Alemany and Arnold M. Golub. I suggest it is read before drawing any final conclusions. This book is great to compare with Robert Trias' 'The Hand is My Sword' (Okinawan Shorei Ryu Kenpo Karate) and Ed Parker's 'Kenpo Karate: Law of the Fist & the Empty Hand' (many similiarites of technique).  With respect to all, "Joe'


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## tshadowchaser

Do you know if this book is still in print or where a copy might be picked up?


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## TChase

I'd love to check it out next time we get together.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

I had a copy of this book in '79, with what seemed like a brown paper bag cover on it. I loaned it out to a friend and never got it back.

Does the inside cover of your book have the initials "DC" on it?

Regards,

Dave


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## Randy Strausbaugh

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> I had a copy of this book in '79, with what seemed like a brown paper bag cover on it. I loaned it out to a friend and never got it back.
> 
> Does the inside cover of your book have the initials "DC" on it?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Dave





			
				Karazenpo said:
			
		

> I have the fourth printing, 2nd edition 1981...


Hmmm.  The Magic 8-ball says "no".


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## Danjo

Wow! I have had two copies of that book for ten years (both were owned by the same guy. Don't ask me why). I bought them at a used bookstore for $2 each. And in less than 5 days, My Kempo Brother, Prof. Joe Shuras has done a far more thorough analysis than I ever did!  Nice work! The part I liked was how Prof. Chow was used to demonstrate many of the techniques.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Randy Strausbaugh said:
			
		

> Hmmm. The Magic 8-ball says "no".


Now, see...if you didn't point out the obvious, Mr. Kill-joy, I could have had myself a more recent copy.


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## Randy Strausbaugh

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Now, see...if you didn't point out the obvious, Mr. Kill-joy, I could have had myself a more recent copy.


Another devious scam, foiled by Randy, Master of the Obvious  :ultracool .


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## John Bishop

Not bad Joe.  Since the last printing was 1981, they're very hard to come by.  They go for $150-$200 on Ebay when ever they turn up.


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## Doc

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> I had a copy of this book in '79, with what seemed like a brown paper bag cover on it. I loaned it out to a friend and never got it back.
> 
> Does the inside cover of your book have the initials "DC" on it?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Dave



That's funny because my copy does.


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## BlackCatBonz

hi prof joe

shihan michael brown said that on one occasion he was able to talk to prof sig kufferath at a get together, he used the time to ask some questions regarding mitose sensei's movement, prof kufferath had said that it was circular and unorthodox....the unorthodox i guess meaning that it was not like what other systems were teaching at the time. i have spent hours with my nose between the covers of this book....and if you look at the images with the thought of circular continuous motion, you can see how it applies. also, in the pages were mitose is showing striking on the makiwara, particularly No.4 and No.7.....this is the way striking is taught in that kata NaiHanNo.....which is a Mitose kata. this kata is very fluid and circular with an emphasis on fast continuous striking.
as he says in the book......great masters of kempo and ju jutsu number their arts in the following order:
1. punching
2. striking
3. kicking
4. throwing and locking

1. ate - punching or more simply hitting....is the fastest because you merely strike at your opponent to get a reaction.
2. atemi - which is more akin to a vital area strike (nerve centre) would take a fraction of time longer simply because of targeting.
3. keri waza which takes even longer due to the distance which the leg must travel in order to reach its target. 
4. nage and kansetsu waza. this is simply last because, if you have time to grab and lock your opponent, you could have just as easily hit your opponent and would not have to stay in contact, keeping yourself free to defend yourself.

i think this book has a huge amount of info in it......and i would suggest any martial artist take the time to study it.


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## DavidCC

I found a PDF version on my favorite P2P file sharing service...


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## Karazenpo

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> hi prof joe
> 
> shihan michael brown said that on one occasion he was able to talk to prof sig kufferath at a get together, he used the time to ask some questions regarding mitose sensei's movement, prof kufferath had said that it was circular and unorthodox....the unorthodox i guess meaning that it was not like what other systems were teaching at the time. i have spent hours with my nose between the covers of this book....and if you look at the images with the thought of circular continuous motion, you can see how it applies. also, in the pages were mitose is showing striking on the makiwara, particularly No.4 and No.7.....this is the way striking is taught in that kata NaiHanNo.....which is a Mitose kata. this kata is very fluid and circular with an emphasis on fast continuous striking.
> as he says in the book......great masters of kempo and ju jutsu number their arts in the following order:
> 1. punching
> 2. striking
> 3. kicking
> 4. throwing and locking
> 
> 1. ate - punching or more simply hitting....is the fastest because you merely strike at your opponent to get a reaction.
> 2. atemi - which is more akin to a vital area strike (nerve centre) would take a fraction of time longer simply because of targeting.
> 3. keri waza which takes even longer due to the distance which the leg must travel in order to reach its target.
> 4. nage and kansetsu waza. this is simply last because, if you have time to grab and lock your opponent, you could have just as easily hit your opponent and would not have to stay in contact, keeping yourself free to defend yourself.
> 
> i think this book has a huge amount of info in it......and i would suggest any martial artist take the time to study it.



Hi Shawn! and hello to everyone else who responded. Sorry I didn't answer right awy but I posted on Friday and was unavailable this weekend. I have to say, yes, this book is much more than I thought it would be. I agree, Shawn, if this is what Mitose taught, his curriculum, and it must be since his students were there performing with him (Thomas Young, William Chow and from what I understand, the woman is Mitose's sister), then this guy was teaching something that was way ahead of his time. There were also many more letters of recommendations from many important people besides Master Tagami. Here's another interesting note. Everything I researched in the past stated that Chow was with Mitose from 1942-1946, yet, there were references, one in particular I remember (I'm at work and don't ahve the book with me at this time) of a thank you letter from an organization that Mitose's Official Self Defense Club did a demo for and William Chow was present. There was also a picture  with Chow in it at a 1974 demo. I'll have to look it up when I get home. Shawn, I will look more closely at what you pointed out. I always like to reread books like this a whole bunch of times and each time I come away with something new, know what I mean? Here's another thing I noticed. i was reading a bio on Choki Motobu recently, it's on the net. In the bio Motobu stated about working your weak side by doing more repetitions and so forth. This same training regimen is pursued in Mitose's book. I do see the very strong Okinawan connection but I'm still not discounting that Mitose never went to Japan or learned anything from a family art. I will keep open minded on that for I feel the jury is still out. Dr. Ted Sumner has some pretty interesting documents showing Mitose did indeed travel to Japan on the San Jose Kenpo website. Man, this guy is still an enigma after over 60 years! With respect, Prof. Joe


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## Karazenpo

John Bishop said:
			
		

> Not bad Joe.  Since the last printing was 1981, they're very hard to come by.  They go for $150-$200 on Ebay when ever they turn up.



I have to thank 'Brother Dan' for that one! I told him, though, that if anything ever happens to his copy I'll send him this one back asap. Thank you again Danjo!


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## Danjo

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> I have to thank 'Brother Dan' for that one! I told him, though, that if anything ever happens to his copy I'll send him this one back asap. Thank you again Danjo!


Well, I showed this book to a former Kempo instructor of mine and she was, shall we say, underwhelmed by it. She vaguely knew who Mitose was, and I believe that her comment was something like, "Looks different than what we do now." and shrugged. She did the same thing when I showed her the footage of Prof. Chow on Sigung Bishop's website. Oh well. When I mentioned to Prof. Joe that I had Mitose's book  he was quite impressed, so I thought, "Ah ha! Someone I can give it to that will appreciate it and can give me their impression of it etc." I have found a great sense of sharing among those in the Kajukenbo/Karazenpo/Shaolin Kempo community and so I am more than happy to pass along something that I have a spare copy of to those that value it since people have been so willing to share of their time and resources with me. (God knows my wife isn't one to discuss Kempo with!) Also, I will never ask for the book back. Once something is passed along, it's passed along, but thanks for the offer.


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## The Kai

Dude awesome gift!


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## Karazenpo

The Kai said:
			
		

> Dude awesome gift!



Right on, Todd! I didn't even know Dan was going to send it, he was sending me some tapes and it was in the package. You should have seen the look on my face when I pulled it out of the box!, lol.


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## GAB

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> Right on, Todd! I didn't even know Dan was going to send it, he was sending me some tapes and it was in the package. You should have seen the look on my face when I pulled it out of the box!, lol.


Hi Professor,

I for one, am very grateful for your acquired gift and for your most recent post's. I have always had faith in you... Do you have the DVD "Truth"?

If not I will send a copy to you. It is the interview between Sensei Mike Brown and Hanshi Bruce Juchnik...

Regards, Gary


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## Karazenpo

GAB said:
			
		

> Hi Professor,
> 
> I for one, am very grateful for your acquired gift and for your most recent post's. I have always had faith in you... Do you have the DVD "Truth"?
> 
> If not I will send a copy to you. It is the interview between Sensei Mike Brown and Hanshi Bruce Juchnik...
> 
> Regards, Gary



Thanks Gary, no, I don't have that DVD. I'll PM you. Take care, "Joe"


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## BlackCatBonz

i have heard of a few other people that have read this book and came away with nothing. there is a lot more to this book than what you get from a cursory glance. on the surface it does look like a collection of techniques....but if you look at the pictures with a "kosho" frame of mind......seeing the angles and not looking at it like hard and fast set techniques, you get a whole new perspective. also......i think any martial art along with most things you learn stress working your weak side or weaknesses more than your strong side or strong points.....its not really an okinawan thing.


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## The Kai

I think if you look at any martial arts guide with a "Kosho Mind" or a "FMA" mind seeing angles, entries,etc..  You will see more than the author intended.  So this is not limited to mitoses book.

Your interpretation will be your interpretation, that's what personalizes the art!!
If you read something into any particular work is it the authors intention or genius or yours??


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## Karazenpo

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> i have heard of a few other people that have read this book and came away with nothing. there is a lot more to this book than what you get from a cursory glance. on the surface it does look like a collection of techniques....but if you look at the pictures with a "kosho" frame of mind......seeing the angles and not looking at it like hard and fast set techniques, you get a whole new perspective. also......i think any martial art along with most things you learn stress working your weak side or weaknesses more than your strong side or strong points.....its not really an okinawan thing.



On this part of your post Shawn: "i think any martial art along with most things you learn stress working your weak side or weaknesses more than your strong side or strong points.....its not really an okinawan thing."[/QUOTE]

Yes, I totally agree but it wasn't so much the working of the weak side that caught my eye but the 'training method' used. It was exactly the way Choki Motobu described it in his bio which led me to suspect along with other similarities, the Okinawan connection.


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## John Bishop

I'm surprised that nobody has discussed the fact that much, if not all of this book and illustrations was plagarized from earlier books by Choki Motobu and Mizuho Mutsu.  In fact last year "The Journal of Asian Martial Arts" did a side by side comparison of Mitose's book and the Okinawan books.


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## Doc

John Bishop said:
			
		

> I'm surprised that nobody has discussed the fact that much, if not all of this book and illustrations was plagarized from earlier books by Choki Motobu and Mizuho Mutsu.  In fact last year "The Journal of Asian Martial Arts" did a side by side comparison of Mitose's book and the Okinawan books.


Funny, I took for granted that everyone knew that already.


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## The Kai

Doc said:
			
		

> Funny, I took for granted that everyone knew that already.


Actually I think I have that issue, I guess in the excitement I forgot!!!  I'll see if I can rustle it up after I teach


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## Karazenpo

John Bishop said:
			
		

> I'm surprised that nobody has discussed the fact that much, if not all of this book and illustrations was plagarized from earlier books by Choki Motobu and Mizuho Mutsu.  In fact last year "The Journal of Asian Martial Arts" did a side by side comparison of Mitose's book and the Okinawan books.




Correct John, this is an excerpt from my original post:

Some have said these techniques were taken from Okinawan Kenpo Karate and the book of Mutzu but others have said that Mitose learned from an instructor of the Motobu lineage (Nabura Tanamaha). Sijo Adriano D. Emperado when posed a question from myself asked by Professor Gerry Scott: Could Mitose's knowledge and skill be that of someone who had studied only the surface arts and evolved it through his natural abilities? Sijo Emperado stated: 'Mitose's abilities was that of a master instructor'. 

That's why I added the quote from Sijo Emperado via Professor Scott. It is one thing to pose for pictures and another to have the skill to do the techniques. Wouldn't it have been obvious to students with the abilities of William Chow and Thomas Young to pick up on this? I don't know the answer to this that is why I'm asking. What do you guys think?


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## BlackCatBonz

The Kai said:
			
		

> I think if you look at any martial arts guide with a "Kosho Mind" or a "FMA" mind seeing angles, entries,etc.. You will see more than the author intended. So this is not limited to mitoses book.
> 
> Your interpretation will be your interpretation, that's what personalizes the art!!
> If you read something into any particular work is it the authors intention or genius or yours??


hi todd

i said it that way because a lot of martial arts deal with teaching from a technique base, and build with variation, if you've been to a few of hanshi's seminars you know that he doesnt really teach like that......its more like,"let's take this punch and work this idea..."

ive always been taught that way from my very first martial arts lesson....so thats how i tend to look at things.
i guess thats why i like to train with a whole bunch of different people.....angles man!


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## BlackCatBonz

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> Correct John, this is an excerpt from my original post:
> 
> Some have said these techniques were taken from Okinawan Kenpo Karate and the book of Mutzu but others have said that Mitose learned from an instructor of the Motobu lineage (Nabura Tanamaha). Sijo Adriano D. Emperado when posed a question from myself asked by Professor Gerry Scott: Could Mitose's knowledge and skill be that of someone who had studied only the surface arts and evolved it through his natural abilities? Sijo Emperado stated: 'Mitose's abilities was that of a master instructor'.
> 
> That's why I added the quote from Sijo Emperado via Professor Scott. It is one thing to pose for pictures and another to have the skill to do the techniques. Wouldn't it have been obvious to students with the abilities of William Chow and Thomas Young to pick up on this? I don't know the answer to this that is why I'm asking. What do you guys think?


prof joe, as i have said on this and other boards.....mitose either knew his stuff or he was the greatest conman ever.
he may have been a con artist in other areas of his life, but i think i would tend to believe the people he was surrounded with and personally taught about his proficiency in the martial arts.


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## Doc

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> Correct John, this is an excerpt from my original post:
> 
> Some have said these techniques were taken from Okinawan Kenpo Karate and the book of Mutzu but others have said that Mitose learned from an instructor of the Motobu lineage (Nabura Tanamaha). Sijo Adriano D. Emperado when posed a question from myself asked by Professor Gerry Scott: Could Mitose's knowledge and skill be that of someone who had studied only the surface arts and evolved it through his natural abilities? Sijo Emperado stated: 'Mitose's abilities was that of a master instructor'.
> 
> That's why I added the quote from Sijo Emperado via Professor Scott. It is one thing to pose for pictures and another to have the skill to do the techniques. Wouldn't it have been obvious to students with the abilities of William Chow and Thomas Young to pick up on this? I don't know the answer to this that is why I'm asking. What do you guys think?


Well all I can say is when I met him and watched him do "techniques," he was very unimpressive, underwhelming. So bad that the black belts present all looked at each other as if to say, "Did you see how bad that was?" Everyone, including Ed Parker simply shrugged their shoulders and ignored his lack of skill.


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## Danjo

I wonder if his skill deteriorated over the years due to inactivity. If Sijo Emperado said he had master level skills, and Professor Chow and Thomas Young trained with him and even took Sijo Emperado to him to get his teacher certification, then he couldn't have been too bad in the early days. Yet, I have heard from numerous people that saw him in action later on that said essentially the same thing as Doc. I knew an old boxer once that used to demonstrate techniques for us kids. He didn't look very impressive either, but he sure as hell had the old clippings and photos from when he was young and he was a pretty good flyweight boxer. His name was Duff Stanley. And he fought in Amarillo Texas back in the thirties. Maybe something like that happened with Mitose?


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## The Kai

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> hi todd
> 
> i said it that way because a lot of martial arts deal with teaching from a technique base, and build with variation, if you've been to a few of hanshi's seminars you know that he doesnt really teach like that......its more like,"let's take this punch and work this idea..."
> 
> ive always been taught that way from my very first martial arts lesson....so thats how i tend to look at things.
> i guess thats why i like to train with a whole bunch of different people.....angles man!


Actually my comment was'nt toward who you train with or even how.  Simply that if you read something into a bbo that isn't in the book, it doen't make the book a master piece


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## John Bishop

I think a false asumption that many a martial arts reputation has been built upon is; "being the first, means being the best". 

Some of the Hawaiian martial artists of the 40-60s who actually earned a reputation built on the quality of their teaching, and their ability to test their skills in real self defense situations were: William Chow, Adriano Emperado, Marino Tiwanak, Henry Okizaki, Bobby Lowe, and Ed Parker.

When Mitose first threatened Emperado about his break from Kenpo, he punched his car and put a dent in the fender.  
The second time he threatened to return to his school with a sword and settle matters. Funny thing, he never came back.  And why would this great master need a sword?  

The car incident reminds me of the line in Karate Kid II, when Daniel sees a poster of Miyagi's ex-friend breaking a log, and he asks Miyagi if he could do that.  Miyagi's simple answer was "I don't know, never been attacked by a tree".


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## Doc

John Bishop said:
			
		

> I think a false asumption that many a martial arts reputation has been built upon is; "being the first, means being the best".
> 
> Some of the Hawaiian martial artists of the 40-60s who actually earned a reputation built on the quality of their teaching, and their ability to test their skills in real self defense situations were: William Chow, Adriano Emperado, Marino Tiwanak, Henry Okizaki, Bobby Lowe, and Ed Parker.
> 
> When Mitose first threatened Emperado about his break from Kenpo, he punched his car and put a dent in the fender.
> The second time he threatened to return to his school with a sword and settle matters. Funny thing, he never came back.  And why would this great master need a sword?
> 
> The car incident reminds me of the line in Karate Kid II, when Daniel sees a poster of Miyagi's ex-friend breaking a log, and he asks Miyagi if he could do that.  Miyagi's simple answer was "I don't know, never been attacked by a tree".


You know I mentioned the same scenario with Chow, and it was dismissed. Mitose would "bully" you if he could. If he couldn't, he'd con you. If that didn't work he'd get someone else to physically work you over, or even kill you.


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## Karazenpo

Doc said:
			
		

> You know I mentioned the same scenario with Chow, and it was dismissed. Mitose would "bully" you if he could. If he couldn't, he'd con you. If that didn't work he'd get someone else to physically work you over, or even kill you.




I don't think anyone could reasonably argue that point Doc, since that's what put him in Folsom prison, lol.


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## GAB

Doc said:
			
		

> You know I mentioned the same scenario with Chow, and it was dismissed. Mitose would "bully" you if he could. If he couldn't, he'd con you. If that didn't work he'd get someone else to physically work you over, or even kill you.


Hi, Interesting thought pattern Doc, reminds me of the Chow lineage thread.(Bullying)...Pathetic...

Now the reason I am posting on this thread is...

I personally talked to the man who was GM Ray Arquilla's Captian in Corrections...

He was also a guard at Folsom Prison when GM Mitose was there... 
He told me that James Mitose was tough, (very tough man) and he had to prove it once in awhile, he had the run of the Prison after he had been in there for a year.. Used to sweep and clean and hardly spoke to anyone...

After he got into a few scraps no one messed with him... He was humble and very obedient. Model prisoner was very hopeful he would get out for good behavior...

This Guard stated, I was watching James Mitose sweep and when he went around a corner and down a corridor out of sight for about a minute there was a tremendous amount of yelling and screaming in the area that he went...

This guard and another whom I also know the name of, went and investigated.

What they found was James Mitose coming back toward them and sweeping the floor. They walked further down the corridor and found several people in prone positions and complaining about injuries they had received by James Mitose...

The best they could figure is these men jumped him and he defended himself...

Just for your information, I know it is not what this crowd wants to hear, I thought I would tell you anyway.

Regards, Gary


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## Kosho-Monk

> I think a false asumption that many a martial arts reputation has been built upon is; "being the first, means being the best".


I agree with this statement. In my own Kempo group, Kosho Ryu, we have our Grandmaster - Bruce Juchnik. I believe that he took what he learned from all his teachers and enhanced it. Thus creating his own version of Kosho Ryu Kempo - which might just be better than what Mitose taught. (I never met Mitose)

I should also say that one of the best things Bruce Juchnik ever did for our Kosho group, is to give the ideas he teaches a name. He basically created a language for the different concepts. He has said that Mitose basically grunted and called him stupid much of the time. But in all of that Mitose would also say or do something profound. Hanshi Juchnik was a good listener and a great thinker. He took these little lessons, planted them, and let them grow into what he teaches today.

So, I agree. There are many martial artists that have come out over the recent past who are incredible. And we can still see great thinkers rising up today. The masters of "ancient times" may or may not have been better than the masters of today. It doesn't really matter, to me anyway.

What's really important is how good you are now - and how good you'll be tomorrow.



-John


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## GAB

Kosho-Monk said:
			
		

> I agree with this statement. In my own Kempo group, Kosho Ryu, we have our Grandmaster - Bruce Juchnik. I believe that he took what he learned from all his teachers and enhanced it. Thus creating his own version of Kosho Ryu Kempo - which might just be better than what Mitose taught. (I never met Mitose)
> 
> I should also say that one of the best things Bruce Juchnik ever did for our Kosho group, is to give the ideas he teaches a name. He basically created a language for the different concepts. He has said that Mitose basically grunted and called him stupid much of the time. But in all of that Mitose would also say or do something profound. Hanshi Juchnik was a good listener and a great thinker. He took these little lessons, planted them, and let them grow into what he teaches today.
> 
> So, I agree. There are many martial artists that have come out over the recent past who are incredible. And we can still see great thinkers rising up today. The masters of "ancient times" may or may not have been better than the masters of today. It doesn't really matter, to me anyway.
> 
> What's really important is how good you are now - and how good you'll be tomorrow.
> 
> 
> 
> -John


Geneology is important to many people if it was not so why does the LDS go out and search and find all of this information for others and keep great records that will be held in peoples hearts for generations to come (other then the biblical stuff they say)...MONEY... People want to know which ancestor came from where...

The Martial Arts world are very split on who, what, where and when...
Hearsay is one thing records are another...Funny about books and agendas and why some one wants to write and repeat certain stuff and change others.

You see it all the time...

Lineage is important to some not so important to others. Most are looking for what they want no matter what...Others want to edit it so they look good in there own eye...Now that is sad and say's a lot for that type of individual and it aint good I will tell you that...Violation of the first Principal of Kenpo...

If you will stay a student you are better off...Always try to learn and take the good with the bad and go down the path...

I sometimes agree and I sometimes disagree but I will always say what I believe is the truth...Funny it is starting to come forth as we speak...

Thanks Sami...

Regards, Gary


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## The Kai

GAB
BTW What is the first principle of kenpo?

What is LDS?


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## Bill Lear

The Kai said:
			
		

> GAB
> BTW What is the first principle of kenpo?
> 
> What is LDS?



LDS = Latter Day Saints (Mormon Church)

He's gunna have to answer the other one himself.


----------



## Bill Lear

GAB said:
			
		

> Hi, Interesting thought pattern Doc, reminds me of the Chow lineage thread.(Bullying)...Pathetic...
> 
> Now the reason I am posting on this thread is...
> 
> I personally talked to the man who was GM Ray Arquilla's Captian in Corrections...
> 
> He was also a guard at Folsom Prison when GM Mitose was there...
> He told me that James Mitose was tough, (very tough man) and he had to prove it once in awhile, he had the run of the Prison after he had been in there for a year.. Used to sweep and clean and hardly spoke to anyone...
> 
> After he got into a few scraps no one messed with him... He was humble and very obedient. Model prisoner was very hopeful he would get out for good behavior...
> 
> This Guard stated, I was watching James Mitose sweep and when he went around a corner and down a corridor out of sight for about a minute there was a tremendous amount of yelling and screaming in the area that he went...
> 
> This guard and another whom I also know the name of, went and investigated.
> 
> What they found was James Mitose coming back toward them and sweeping the floor. They walked further down the corridor and found several people in prone positions and complaining about injuries they had received by James Mitose...
> 
> The best they could figure is these men jumped him and he defended himself...
> 
> Just for your information, I know it is not what this crowd wants to hear, I thought I would tell you anyway.
> 
> Regards, Gary



I thought Mitose was a model prisoner. I had no idea he was beating people up in prison.

He didn't even have a scratch on him? No busted knuckles from punching out the inmates or anything? Did anyone ever have to go to the medical ward for treatment?

I'd love to hear more.


----------



## GAB

The Kai said:
			
		

> GAB
> BTW What is the first principle of kenpo?
> 
> What is LDS?


Hi Kai...

Bill Lear is correct on LDS...

The first principle of Kenpo as practiced in the Tracy system and one that I like because they took the nine Principles from the writings of Miyamoto Mushashi...

It is in the "Book of Five Rings"... I have read much of his writings and there are two different translations out regarding the one mentioned here..

I personally like the thought, replacing the word, rings with spheres.

But any way it is from that book, Mushashi was famous for his ability to yield a Sword... His first principal or Rule "Think without any dishonesty"

He was much more then just a swordsman, He was a true Samuri in the most honorable way to explain it... 

The book is on the web you can go to google and read it, or buy a copy or two...

Regards


----------



## GAB

Bill Lear said:
			
		

> I thought Mitose was a model prisoner. I had no idea he was beating people up in prison.
> 
> He didn't even have a scratch on him? No busted knuckles from punching out the inmates or anything? Did anyone ever have to go to the medical ward for treatment?
> 
> I'd love to hear more.


Hi,

Go to www.Sanjoekenpo.com

Read some of the information that is being put up in the articles and on the board.

Dr. Ted Sumner is a very Honorable man and has given out much good information, take it with a grain of salt or not...

If you want to hear more about my findings e-mail me or I will tell you in a thread on Mitose and his life, Hanshi Bruce Juchnik has given me permission to do this...I am limited to say my own opinions, I can only write what he tells me...Sure LOL...There will be some restrictions due to my respect for his thoughts and his feelings....

He had a broom in his hand Bill, he was truly a gifted person regarding MA, just as Ed Parker was...You just don't seem to read that part of my threads about my respect for the man as far as MA goes and his abilities...

If I did not respect Hanshi for his talent, I would not post in his behalf...
I have said some things about Hanshi that I have been chastized for, well the truth is the truth...

I have done many things I wish I did not have to do, but then I was being paid to enforce laws and that ment hurting people...I still am able to sleep just fine...I have monsters, but hey that is life... 

Regards, Gary


----------



## The Kai

GAB said:
			
		

> Hi Kai...
> 
> Bill Lear is correct on LDS...
> 
> The first principle of Kenpo as practiced in the Tracy system and one that I like because they took the nine Principles from the writings of Miyamoto Mushashi...
> 
> It is in the "Book of Five Rings"... I have read much of his writings and there are two different translations out regarding the one mentioned here..
> 
> I personally like the thought, replacing the word, rings with spheres.
> 
> But any way it is from that book, Mushashi was famous for his ability to yield a Sword... His first principal or Rule "Think without any dishonesty"
> 
> He was much more then just a swordsman, He was a true Samuri in the most honorable way to explain it...
> 
> The book is on the web you can go to google and read it, or buy a copy or two...
> 
> Regards


Tracy's kenpo, so now you are a Tracy's Kenpo man?

Actually I read the book-Don't know where the connection between Mushashi/Book of 5 rings and Kenpo comes in, much less suddenly there are the principles of kenpo.
Actually off the top of my head, another of Mushashi's principles is "Do nothing of no use (or purpose)".  
What is your goal GAB, ??


----------



## GAB

The Kai said:
			
		

> Tracy's kenpo, so now you are a Tracy's Kenpo man?
> 
> Actually I read the book-Don't know where the connection between Mushashi/Book of 5 rings and Kenpo comes in, much less suddenly there are the principles of kenpo.
> Actually off the top of my head, another of Mushashi's principles is "Do nothing of no use (or purpose)".
> What is your goal GAB, ??


Hi Kai, 
Like one of the Masters I have studied under said to me, It is all chicken,
just different flavors...

This particular GM was talking in reference to Escrima and Arnis, same applies to Kenpo or all the martial arts for that matter...

My goal, live to ripe old age still being able to have good health and drop over dead doing what I like best....

Regards, Gary


----------



## Doc

This thread is probably going to get locked as well. Discussion out of a desire for knowledge, or even simple curiosity is fine, but this is way too much rambling non-sensical rhetoric from someone who doesn't study any form of kenpo and whose true art is "baiting discussion" for mental therapy.


----------



## GAB

Doc said:
			
		

> This thread is probably going to get locked as well. Discussion out of a desire for knowledge, or even simple curiosity is fine, but this is way too much rambling non-sensical rhetoric from someone who doesn't study any form of kenpo and whose true art is "baiting discussion" for mental therapy.


Hi Doc,

Actually that is an art form in Kosho Ryu. But I don't know that it is something I do any more then others on this board who are older and have been around the block a few times...

What is your description of study??? Why do you say that? Just because I talk FMA and other MA? Could you do me a favor and explain Kenpo???

If it is "Law of the Fist" or Fist Law, as others claim... I do it quite a bit...

I just answered two different persons questions...I am wondering what you would like? (yea I know) But other then that...

Kosho Monk, 

I was talking to Hanshi last night and he does admit to inovation, He talked about Ed Parker last night regarding inovation and feels it is something that has been left behind due to the lack of creativity.

He praised Parker and said that he was the best thing that ever happened to Kenpo. But he feels it is stagnating and needs more creativity...

He is afraid that Kenpo will go the way of other arts that stagnate and fail to continue to teach new information...Similar to a student who does not continue to search for what his teacher sought, continue to learn, not 
just duplicate...

We are a demanding society and fickle, it is not bad in his opinion. Just in order to keep up with it you must be able to rise to the occasion...

Similar to finance end of the year shuffle and start of the quarter sale...

I believe that is one of the reasons Guro Dan Inosanto is doing so well, he is very inovative and continues to learn from others, to incorporate it into his
FMA and JKD...

The foot work of the octagon or the triangle is not new, it is something that you find in most martial arts. 

I am reading a book about Capoeira. It is very interesting nothing new, just now coming to the forefront and has been around for along time...

To discredit any of the arts and there teachings is sort of funny, we do have differences in styles and tech's but they are very similar. 

That is a soft move, no that is hard, that was linear, no there are no linear movements in a circle, blah, blah.

Hey, that is what a lot of it is about, get used to it, train, study and learn...And try not to stagnate...

Regards, Gary


----------



## MJS

I'll agree with Doc on this one.  This topic has started to take a different path from the original post, which was a discussion about the book.  

Lets try to re-direct ourselves back to that path.

Mike


----------



## The Kai

Gab

1.) Then you never did Kenpo
2.) Then you son did Kosho
3.) Then you did a little Kosho
4.) Now you do a ot of Kosho
5.) Then you knew Ed parker
6.) Then you did'nt
7.) Then you knew quite knowledgable with the kajukenbo
8.) Then you were, like, a yellow belt-back when
9.) Then it's FMA, when you don't want to answer the kenpo questions


----------



## GAB

Hi Kai,

Well you have some of it correct, and some wrong...

Just like when you... quote someone take two or three words out of a paragraph couple them up with one or two out of another and then quote the person...

I never have been a yellow belt... If I would have mentioned it, it was in relation to another...

I have done a little bit of all the arts and still do, I asked Sensei Pat last night at class and we talked about what Kenpo was and Kosho and Shorei and Ryu...

I work out with many people, at my house, at the dojo, at my son's house, in the car, at the restaurant, in the parking lot, at a family gathering, at a Gym...

To know Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo is to know what I am talking about, all these things we talk about are pieces of the puzzle and that is what I do...

What if I go to a seminar, pick up information and physcially work it for that day, I then discuss it, I work it again, I go to bed thinking about it I wake up in the morning thinking about it, I call some one and ask a question, I talk about it on a board, I do it in a dojo...

Then I notice they are similar to something else I bring it up at a conversation, It's all chicken different flavor??? OK, say that one hundred times to your self Todd... It is all martial arts only different twist??? Say that one hundred times Todd...

It is all in how you want to look at it Todd...I learn, study, mentally or physically every day, much times 8 hours, numerous days in a row or more or less....

Regards, Gary


----------



## The Kai

Actually i could say 1 or 100 times there is a vast difference between arts like karate and Aikido,  Judo and Tai Chi.  Are there smiliarities?  sure there is also a simlarity in the way we walk and the way we swim!  To say walking and swimming are the same thing would be ludicrouis.

To say that I know a little about Kenpo is to say a know something about all the styles of martial arts out there??  Ludicrous


----------



## Karazenpo

Sorry, I didn't mean my post to take this twist. I just wanted a friendly discussion on the book itself, that's all, just more research into the Mitose enigma.


----------



## Randy Strausbaugh

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> Sorry, I didn't mean my post to take this twist.


Nothing to be sorry for, Professor, since you didn't twist it .
One thing I noticed about the book was how often Mitose referred to using nerve strikes in the techniques, without actually showing or describing those strikes or their intended target(s).  Seems as though Mitose felt the need to hide things even in a introductory text.


----------



## Karazenpo

Randy Strausbaugh said:
			
		

> Nothing to be sorry for, Professor, since you didn't twist it .
> One thing I noticed about the book was how often Mitose referred to using nerve strikes in the techniques, without actually showing or describing those strikes or their intended target(s).  Seems as though Mitose felt the need to hide things even in a introductory text.



True, Randy, I noticed that too. Thanks, 'Joe'


----------



## Matt

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> Sorry, I didn't mean my post to take this twist. I just wanted a friendly discussion on the book itself, that's all, just more research into the Mitose enigma.



Hey Joe - 
It's been a busy couple of weeks, but I plan to dig my copies out (of the three versions) and give them some thought based on your first post, and then I promise I'll actually talk about the book on  this thread. I just hope the thread doesn't get killed before I have a chance!

Matt


----------



## Karazenpo

Matt said:
			
		

> Hey Joe -
> It's been a busy couple of weeks, but I plan to dig my copies out (of the three versions) and give them some thought based on your first post, and then I promise I'll actually talk about the book on  this thread. I just hope the thread doesn't get killed before I have a chance!
> 
> Matt



Great Matt, I'll be looking forward to your input! This is what I wanted. Take care, "Joe"


----------



## The Kai

I'm sorry!


----------



## KenpoTess

Bravo  Now back to our topic.. 

By keeping personal feelings off the threads. Topics will remain open.

~Tess


----------



## GAB

Hi Joe,

I was talking about the new subject (this) that you brought up and I thought it would be good... So I told Hanshi, he was glad that it was being talked about instead of being bad mouthed...

James Mitose was a very secret person, quite a lot of hidden agendas...

One rumor was he said, I did not teach a lot of my family art, I did teach some, why would I want to give away my Art??? Something like that...

I can understand that...It will come out more, now that there are more persons taking a harder look at it and not just to bad mouth it but to find the truth...

Regards, Gary


----------



## Karazenpo

GAB said:
			
		

> Hi Joe,
> 
> I was talking about the new subject (this) that you brought up and I thought it would be good... So I told Hanshi, he was glad that it was being talked about instead of being bad mouthed...
> 
> James Mitose was a very secret person, quite a lot of hidden agendas...
> 
> One rumor was he said, I did not teach a lot of my family art, I did teach some, why would I want to give away my Art??? Something like that...
> 
> I can understand that...It will come out more, now that there are more persons taking a harder look at it and not just to bad mouth it but to find the truth...
> 
> Regards, Gary



Thanks, Gary.


----------



## KenpoDave

Randy Strausbaugh said:
			
		

> Nothing to be sorry for, Professor, since you didn't twist it .
> One thing I noticed about the book was how often Mitose referred to using nerve strikes in the techniques, without actually showing or describing those strikes or their intended target(s).  Seems as though Mitose felt the need to hide things even in a introductory text.



There are several photo sequences that show Mitose using a single knuckle strike, although the text says "punch."  He did not define the nerve centers too specifically, though, likely because they were available elsewhere.

It is my understanding that the photo sequences were done "begrudgingly" at the request of publishers who thought the book would sell better.  The 2nd book is the one he wanted to write.


----------



## Karazenpo

KenpoDave said:
			
		

> There are several photo sequences that show Mitose using a single knuckle strike, although the text says "punch."  He did not define the nerve centers too specifically, though, likely because they were available elsewhere.
> 
> It is my understanding that the photo sequences were done "begrudgingly" at the request of publishers who thought the book would sell better.  The 2nd book is the one he wanted to write.



Yes, interesting, Dave, Choki Motobu's speciality was the one knuckle strike.


----------



## Danjo

KenpoDave said:
			
		

> There are several photo sequences that show Mitose using a single knuckle strike, although the text says "punch." He did not define the nerve centers too specifically, though, likely because they were available elsewhere.
> 
> It is my understanding that the photo sequences were done "begrudgingly" at the request of publishers who thought the book would sell better. The 2nd book is the one he wanted to write.


What was the second book and what did it contain?


----------



## Danjo

Okay, as near as I can tell Mitose was a decent fighter back when he was in Hawaii Both Sijo Emperado and Professor Chow seemed to think so. Just how good is difficult to tell. Was he as good as either of them? It seems doubtful. By the time he showed up to train with Ed Parker, it seemed that his skills had deteriorated considerably. Parker and Co. regarded him as a joke according to Thomas Mitose, and that seems to be what Doc Chapel is telling us from his personal observation also. It was pretty well shown in _Classical Fighting Arts_ #4 that Mitose copied two other existing texts when making his in 1947. They consisted of decent techniques, as Prof. Shuras has noted, but nothing spectacular by today's standards. The idea that Mitose was concealing his true art from the public is, frankly, unbelievable to me. That seems to be the cop out of people who want to defend him. That he would show up in public and perform like a joke all the while concealing his true mastery that would make anyone impressed with his skills, is something that I'm not at all prepared to believe. That he "secretly" trained others while in prison is also unbelievable. As GM Kuoha pointed out, it would have to have been _REALLY_ secret given that it was illegal to do so in prison. If there are really "_secret techniques_" then let's see the proof. Where is the text of Mitose demonstrating _THOSE_ techniques? Without more corroboration than some nameless former prison guard's second cousin (or who ever) to confirm this, I think it should not be given any merit. James Mitose was a decent martial artist in his younger days. He knew how to fight and train others in what he knew. He apparently slacked off a great deal in his later years and spent the rest of his days trying to weave a spell for others to believe. He gave us Kenpo/Kempo (hell, he even spelled it both ways) or at least the seeds of it. But here's something that Marlon Brando said once about Charlie Chaplan being a complete jerk, "You have to separate the man from his talent." Mitose was, once upon a time, a talented martial artist. But it seems that he was a sick person who neither stuck with his martial art practice, nor did he remain a decent citizen. Too bad really, but it's what we're stuck with.


----------



## BlackCatBonz

just want to make a few points
-do martial arts techniques have to be spectacular to be effective
-old teachers tend to keep secret okuden study until the teachers thought the students were ready (mitose mentions this in his book)
-just because you dont see it, doesnt mean it isnt there
-when something is illegal NOBODY does it
-mitose said good martial arts should look like a mistake(something i put into practice for 5 years as a head doorman in a club)
-you either believe in something or not
-english spelling means nothing to japanese


----------



## Danjo

just want to make a few points
-do martial arts techniques have to be spectacular to be effective
*No they do not. Which leads me to believe that this is basically all there was to Mitose's Kenpo.*
-old teachers tend to keep secret okuden study until the teachers thought the students were ready (mitose mentions this in his book)
*Well...That's part of the problem here. The old teachers didn't teach non-Japanese, or Okinawans either. Yet, here was Mitose doing so. When someone has shown themselves to throw out tradition so flagrantly, I doubt that he would have kept up THAT part of it.*
-just because you dont see it, doesnt mean it isnt there
*Most of the time, the reason that you don't see something is because there is nothing to see.*
-when something is illegal NOBODY does it
*Again, We're talking about how LIKELY something is. Given that nobody credible saw it, AND that it was illegal, AND that there was no proof that it DID happen, I tend not to believe it. The burden of proof is on the person that is making the unlikely claim, not on the one disbelieving it.*
-mitose said good martial arts should look like a mistake(something i put into practice for 5 years as a head doorman in a club)
*A mistake or a JOKE? Especially to other martial artists?*
-you either believe in something or not
*No, actually there are usually REASONS that you believe something or disbelieve it. In this case: credible eyewitnesses attesting to his lack of ability in old age, and total lack of evidence that the opposite was true.*
-english spelling means nothing to japanese


----------



## BlackCatBonz

see danjo.......you have already made up your mind knowing the facts you know. so any further discussion on the subject impertinent. this is in no way an attack directed towards you.
there are many things out in the world that people see or hear and dont understand or believe......this in no way means that those things are entirely untrue. 
if someone were to do something and it wasnt witnessed by someone credible......does that mean said thing did not take place?
if there is no proof that it did happen......where is the proof to say it didnt happen?
as to your last comment........yes people do have reasons to why they either believe something or not. hence my saying, "you either believe in something or not"
just because a teacher decides to do something non-traditional like teach non asians.....doesnt mean he is giving up tradition altogether.
if you're basing your belief in a few pictures out of a book directed at beginners, then that is all you're going to come away with.


----------



## KenpoDave

Danjo said:
			
		

> just want to make a few points
> -do martial arts techniques have to be spectacular to be effective
> *No they do not. Which leads me to believe that this is basically all there was to Mitose's Kenpo.*



It has been said that he was teaching the bare bones, the most readily effective, least spectacular stuff because of wartime.  When he tried to teach the rest later, the pitbulls he had created "didn't need it."



> -old teachers tend to keep secret okuden study until the teachers thought the students were ready (mitose mentions this in his book)
> *Well...That's part of the problem here. The old teachers didn't teach non-Japanese, or Okinawans either. Yet, here was Mitose doing so. When someone has shown themselves to throw out tradition so flagrantly, I doubt that he would have kept up THAT part of it.*



The old teachers in Japan taught US servicemen post WWII, and we know that they did not teach them "the secrets."  They were taught the same curriculum the grade school kids got, karate, not kenpo.



> -just because you dont see it, doesnt mean it isnt there
> *Most of the time, the reason that you don't see something is because there is nothing to see.*



Interestingly, two of the biggest critics of Mitose given the time they met him with Ed Parker, now teach versions of AK based almost entirely upon the lesson they all missed that day.

-when something is illegal NOBODY does it
*Again, We're talking about how LIKELY something is. Given that nobody credible saw it, AND that it was illegal, AND that there was no proof that it DID happen, I tend not to believe it. The burden of proof is on the person that is making the unlikely claim, not on the one disbelieving it.*

They saw it, but missed the point.  Does that make them less credible, or Mitose?  The proof is in the kenpo.  What we have today IS spectacular, and according to many, Parker's genius was in recognizing that which was already there.

-mitose said good martial arts should look like a mistake(something i put into practice for 5 years as a head doorman in a club)
*A mistake or a JOKE? Especially to other martial artists?*

Perhaps Mitose adjusted his demonstration to his audience.


----------



## Danjo

It has been said that he was teaching the bare bones, the most readily effective, least spectacular stuff because of wartime. When he tried to teach the rest later, the pitbulls he had created "didn't need it."
*Who said this?*


The old teachers in Japan taught US servicemen post WWII, and we know that they did not teach them "the secrets." They were taught the same curriculum the grade school kids got, karate, not kenpo.
*What secrets were those?*


Interestingly, two of the biggest critics of Mitose given the time they met him with Ed Parker, now teach versions of AK based almost entirely upon the lesson they all missed that day.
*Such as?*

-when something is illegal NOBODY does it
*Again, We're talking about how LIKELY something is. Given that nobody credible saw it, AND that it was illegal, AND that there was no proof that it DID happen, I tend not to believe it. The burden of proof is on the person that is making the unlikely claim, not on the one disbelieving it.*

They saw it, but missed the point. Does that make them less credible, or Mitose? The proof is in the kenpo. What we have today IS spectacular, and according to many, Parker's genius was in recognizing that which was already there.
*Who saw the training in prison and missed the point?*

-mitose said good martial arts should look like a mistake(something i put into practice for 5 years as a head doorman in a club)
*A mistake or a JOKE? Especially to other martial artists?*

Perhaps Mitose adjusted his demonstration to his audience.
*Parker and Chapel?*


----------



## Danjo

see danjo.......you have already made up your mind knowing the facts you know.
*I believe I said "as near as I can tell" If there is some other proof, bring it out.*
 so any further discussion on the subject impertinent. 
*I'm not bashing Mitose entirely. My comments were complimenting him where logic seemed to dictate, i.e., what we have proof of.*
this is in no way an attack directed towards you.
*Good because I'm really not trying to cause a flame war or whatever.*
there are many things out in the world that people see or hear and dont understand or believe......this in no way means that those things are entirely untrue.if someone were to do something and it wasnt witnessed by someone credible......does that mean said thing did not take place?
if there is no proof that it did happen......where is the proof to say it didnt happen?
*Look, religion you take on faith. The martial arts are supposed to be demonstrable. At least in my opinion.*
as to your last comment........yes people do have reasons to why they either believe something or not. hence my saying, "you either believe in something or not"
*To say you either believe something or not seems to imply the opposite of basing one's beliefs on reason, "For those who believe, no explanation is neccessary: For those who do not, none is possible." That's used to describe a belief in the supernatural, not the martial arts.*

just because a teacher decides to do something non-traditional like teach non asians.....doesnt mean he is giving up tradition altogether.
*Okay. But it makes it more likely that he's comfortable dispensing with other traditions.*
if you're basing your belief in a few pictures out of a book directed at beginners, then that is all you're going to come away with.
*I tend to agree with Prof. Shuras here. It seemed like a pretty complete curriculum to me. At least to what would be considered black belt level. I have read that book many times over the years, so it's not just a few pictures that I'm going by. We only have what he gave us to go by. For the rest we have to rely on hearsay.*


----------



## GAB

Hi Shawn,

I am reading some interesting stuff regarding many master's talking about their study and what they feel is the path, I think the most common thread is the masters them selves were pretty much loners, they got there not by others but by themselves and what they believed in...

I believe that plagurizim is rampant in the martial arts and really something that is not to be taken with much concern, especially when you go to a school and all they turn out are duplicates of the teacher... Whether they know it or not that is what they are doing...

Inovation is the key and to work hard and train, fight the good fight defend what you think is correct and go on. 

The book (original) we are talking about is over 55 years old, the information that is in it is much older...The Martial arts that are in it are still being practiced one way or another by hundreds of different sensei and being taught to thousands more as we write back and forth...

I like it when others do, what they complain about the most, when others do it back or visa versa... We all have that right, I like Batman better than Spiderman, you like Superman better than Mighty Mouse..

The one thing that I still have not heard an answer to is that when James Mitose was in the Dojo at Ed Parkers and reached down and touched Parkers foot dosen't anyone realize if you can get that close and touch someone and you have done it without being stopped, they can kill you just as easy ???? 

A mistake or real???? Explain how that happened, how did he do it???

He is showing you something and he was not stopped from doing what he wanted to, think about that...

Regards, Gary


----------



## Randy Strausbaugh

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> ...from what I understand, the woman is Mitose's sister


John Bishop posted here that Adriano Emperado identified the woman in question as being Mitose's girlfriend rather than his sister.


----------



## Danjo

GAB said:
			
		

> The one thing that I still have not heard an answer to is that when James Mitose was in the Dojo at Ed Parkers and reached down and touched Parkers foot dosen't anyone realize if you can get that close and touch someone and you have done it without being stopped, they can kill you just as easy ????
> 
> A mistake or real???? Explain how that happened, how did he do it???
> 
> He is showing you something and he was not stopped from doing what he wanted to, think about that...
> 
> Regards, Gary


I shook hands with Chuck Norris at an airport 17 years ago. Does that mean that I could have killed him if I had wanted to? He didn't stop me from doing what I wanted to. What's your point with that?


----------



## Doc

Danjo said:
			
		

> I shook hands with Chuck Norris at an airport 17 years ago. Does that mean that I could have killed him if I had wanted to? He didn't stop me from doing what I wanted to. What's your point with that?


Please don't fall into the trap of trying to have a conversation that makes sense with someone who has no intention on doing so. There are some serious problems there.


----------



## BlackCatBonz

KenpoDave said:
			
		

> It has been said that he was teaching the bare bones, the most readily effective, least spectacular stuff because of wartime. When he tried to teach the rest later, the pitbulls he had created "didn't need it."
> 
> 
> 
> The old teachers in Japan taught US servicemen post WWII, and we know that they did not teach them "the secrets." They were taught the same curriculum the grade school kids got, karate, not kenpo.
> 
> 
> 
> Interestingly, two of the biggest critics of Mitose given the time they met him with Ed Parker, now teach versions of AK based almost entirely upon the lesson they all missed that day.
> 
> -when something is illegal NOBODY does it
> *Again, We're talking about how LIKELY something is. Given that nobody credible saw it, AND that it was illegal, AND that there was no proof that it DID happen, I tend not to believe it. The burden of proof is on the person that is making the unlikely claim, not on the one disbelieving it.*
> 
> They saw it, but missed the point. Does that make them less credible, or Mitose? The proof is in the kenpo. What we have today IS spectacular, and according to many, Parker's genius was in recognizing that which was already there.
> 
> -mitose said good martial arts should look like a mistake(something i put into practice for 5 years as a head doorman in a club)
> *A mistake or a JOKE? Especially to other martial artists?*
> 
> Perhaps Mitose adjusted his demonstration to his audience.


thank-you dave!


----------



## BlackCatBonz

GAB said:
			
		

> Hi Shawn,
> 
> I am reading some interesting stuff regarding many master's talking about their study and what they feel is the path, I think the most common thread is the masters them selves were pretty much loners, they got there not by others but by themselves and what they believed in...
> 
> I believe that plagurizim is rampant in the martial arts and really something that is not to be taken with much concern, especially when you go to a school and all they turn out are duplicates of the teacher... Whether they know it or not that is what they are doing...
> 
> Inovation is the key and to work hard and train, fight the good fight defend what you think is correct and go on.
> 
> The book (original) we are talking about is over 55 years old, the information that is in it is much older...The Martial arts that are in it are still being practiced one way or another by hundreds of different sensei and being taught to thousands more as we write back and forth...
> 
> I like it when others do, what they complain about the most, when others do it back or visa versa... We all have that right, I like Batman better than Spiderman, you like Superman better than Mighty Mouse..
> 
> The one thing that I still have not heard an answer to is that when James Mitose was in the Dojo at Ed Parkers and reached down and touched Parkers foot dosen't anyone realize if you can get that close and touch someone and you have done it without being stopped, they can kill you just as easy ????
> 
> A mistake or real???? Explain how that happened, how did he do it???
> 
> He is showing you something and he was not stopped from doing what he wanted to, think about that...
> 
> Regards, Gary


true enough, gary


----------



## The Kai

Is there a secret pressure point on the foot that leads to immediate death??

Also. during one steps, you look pretty good doing all sort of things


----------



## BlackCatBonz

does everything in martial arts need to lead to immediate death?


----------



## GAB

Danjo said:
			
		

> I shook hands with Chuck Norris at an airport 17 years ago. Does that mean that I could have killed him if I had wanted to? He didn't stop me from doing what I wanted to. What's your point with that?


Danjo,

All I can say to that is stop and think what I said... Ed Parker was in Hawaii when James Mitose was there...Ed Parker was studing under Professor Chow, Professor Chow studied with James Mitose... 

Ed Parker knew James Mitose better then anyone else in the early days. Except for John Leoning and Sonny Gascon and Walter Godin (all on the mainland in the early 60s teaching)...

Meeting someone in an airport and shaking hands with him.

Having someone come to your Dojo and do a few tricks and some moves, is quite a different thing...

He was playing  against a stacked deck in the first place, someone contesting what someone who say's "I was there," is playing against a stacked deck...

So all you can do is to try to draw a picture with words and hope that others that read this will see it even if you don't...

This web page is bigger then just you and I, it is for many who go unnoticed and who would not dare to walk into a dojo and make fun of an instructor and walk out without injury...In there (own mind) opinion, I would think...This is America not some third world country that has no laws...

You can huff and puff all you want but it still does not change laws that are there to protect persons and someones dojo is not an embassy as I recall...

Cross this line, I will kick your butt you say, I do it and the ball is in your court... That probably does not make sense to you either???

Regards, Gary


----------



## GAB

Doc said:
			
		

> Please don't fall into the trap of trying to have a conversation that makes sense with someone who has no intention on doing so. There are some serious problems there.


Doc, See as John Bishop would say, "there you go again"...

So Doc, explain that with a little more "Gusto". It is a two way street, need I say more??? 

You and I are similar but different, we have similar likes and dislikes.

We both have similar backgrounds...I know the game and so do you...

All this, is a Chess Game, for some others it is a Chest Game, I am not selling a product, You are. I am just here to see the playing field is not so lop sided...

This is an AK location. You want to diss fine go for it...Like I have said in a post just prior to this. Many are reading this and making up there own minds.

They don't post...They read and say, Oh I did not know that, or look at that guy what an idiot... But neither of us will know who is who in their mind, will we Doc???

We are pawns and we do what we do, protect our King or Queen or Bishop or Knight or Rook...

Look at it like that and don't take it personal...

Regards, Gary


----------



## The Kai

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> does everything in martial arts need to lead to immediate death?


_Posted by GAB "The one thing that I still have not heard an answer to is that when James Mitose was in the Dojo at Ed Parkers and reached down and touched Parkers foot dosen't anyone realize if you can get that close and touch someone and you have done it without being stopped, they can kill you just as easy ???? "
_


----------



## The Kai

_"Ed Parker knew James Mitose better then anyone else in the early days. Except for John Leoning and Sonny Gascon and Walter Godin (all on the mainland in the early 60s teaching)..." GAB_


_Where_ does this come from?  From Ed Parker's accounts, most of the training was from Chow.  Sonny Gascone et al, are'nt they more Kaju people?


----------



## GAB

The Kai said:
			
		

> _"Ed Parker knew James Mitose better then anyone else in the early days. Except for John Leoning and Sonny Gascon and Walter Godin (all on the mainland in the early 60s teaching)..." GAB_
> 
> 
> _Where_ does this come from? From Ed Parker's accounts, most of the training was from Chow. Sonny Gascone et al, are'nt they more Kaju people?


Hi Kai,

These were persons along with Ed Parker who were in Hawaii during the years James Mitose was teaching...If you were in a small town of less then a few Hundred (not real just an example) Kenpo players, and there were several Dojos and all the players that are your senior are students or knew an instructor...

Don't you think you would know something about that person??? More then likely I am sure if not by reputation (there he is, thats the guy) or 'good morning Grandmaster'... 'Ugh' comes the reply...Hung out at the YMCA...Come on Kai...

Edit..

I am answering your question on the book about which I referred to in another thread here, since it is releated to this thread by the fact that it was one of the books James Mitose was working on while in prison. It was edited by Arnold Golub and published after James Mitose's death.

The name of that book is "In Search of Kenpo---Traditional Japanese Stories"

I have seen it on Thomas Mitose's web site for $79.00...It was given to Thomas by Arnold Golub and was sold originally for $3.00...

Regards, Gary


----------



## The Kai

There is a difference between being aware of and knowing a person...


I have that book, save your money!


----------



## GAB

The Kai said:
			
		

> There is a difference between being aware of and knowing a person...
> 
> 
> I have that book, save your money!


Kai,

To have "knowledge" and "awareness" is a pretty fine line to be trying to pick apart. But I get the drift...

The Book...
Short stories trying to relay Humility and Knowledge and Awareness through the story, in a setting that is easily understood, sort of like around a camp fire and trying to make something meaningful and not just scary...Much like the Bible in the western civilization setting, not as in depth with history. More like new rather then the old. It has been a way of communication for eons.

What if it was true that he came from a Family art and it is something he learned, that was handed down and everyone else was the borrower and not him???? I guess it is how you want to look at it???
The information is out there you just need to know what you are looking for... 

Faith is one thing, believing is another. Documentation is another, quite a few document's have been put up on the San Jose Kenpo site since this discussion and my arrival on these boards in June of last year... I have not seen any thing to change my mind yet...

Lots more to come, I understand GM Ray Arquilla will be letting some of his information out at a seminar to be held in Sacramento, I sure am glad I have a front seat...Next couple of years are going to interesting....

How about this...

People set up web sites to reflect their thoughts and mentality. You go there and come back with what they are trying to project to the viewers...
It is nice to get some insight don't you think?

Regards, Gary


----------



## The Kai

Again you kind of lost me:idunno:  with the website reference.

Sure I know about campfire stories, and folkloric tradition.  I still say save your money.
Since both the books are heavily borrowed from other sources, finding a "family" art may be a impossibility


----------



## The Kai

disregard


----------



## Danjo

Doc said:
			
		

> Please don't fall into the trap of trying to have a conversation that makes sense with someone who has no intention on doing so. There are some serious problems there.


After the past couple of posts, I'm beginning to see what you mean.


----------



## Karazenpo

A while ago someone had mentioned that there was a current American Kenpo senior who also met Mitose at Mr. Parker's school (although I don't recall if it was the same visit as the 'foot strike' but I think it was) and came away with a whole different impression of Mitose. He had said something like Mitose did a technique on him and hurt him with it. I can't remember what topic it was on or even if it was on this forum but I distinctly remember the story. Does anyone recall this story and who the AK guy was? I thought I copied and saved it in my documents and I'll keep looking but no luck yet. "Joe"


----------



## Doc

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> A while ago someone had mentioned that there was a current American Kenpo senior who also met Mitose at Mr. Parker's school (although I don't recall if it was the same visit as the 'foot strike' but I think it was) and came away with a whole different impression of Mitose. He had said something like Mitose did a technique on him and hurt him with it. I can't remember what topic it was on or even if it was on this forum but I distinctly remember the story. Does anyone recall this story and who the AK guy was? I thought I copied and saved it in my documents and I'll keep looking but no luck yet. "Joe"


Hey Joe. I don't remember any of the "Ancients" saying that but who knows. I know if it happened it wasn't that day. I was there when he came in and left. And for the record, Mitose did not interact with Ed Parker that day other than the offer of a con scheme that Parker declined to participate in. There was just a group of guys around and Mitose volunteered to "show something." I believe Huk was there but I can't remember because the whole incident was of little note among many. Mitose had no stature or mistique and was just another guy dropping by like they always did in droves to see the "Old Man." If Parker didn't show deference when someone dropped by, than we never noticed. I know I didn't learn he was Mitose until after he was gone, and even then it was "Who?" The name never came up or had much significance until much later when he was on trial. I wish I could remember who he solicited to throw a punch. I wasn't dressed and was just passing through, when this guy with a priests collar solicited the punch. The guy did a nice slow step through punch and Mitose dropped to a close kneel stance and punched downward toward his stationary lead foot making no contact. Than time sorta just "stopped." Everyone kinda looked around at each other as if to say, "Is that it?" There was some discussion about  following with a front kick and how vulnerable he was etc. after he left but for us he was just another "nut" who stopped by to show us how "deadly" he was without putting himself in any real jeopardy. It was after the fact and he had left that Parker revealed who he was and what he wanted. Hardly a "blip" in the activity. Not even a log entry.

10-4? eleven robert clear


----------



## John Bishop

"In Search of Kenpo" (the plagiarism continues).  This time Mitose has taken common Japanese folk tales, and attached the "Kosho" family name to them.  After reading one particular excerpt, I kept wondering why it was so familiar to me.  Then I remembered it was a scene from the Akira Kurosawa movie "Seven Samurai".  Except in "Seven Samurai" nobody was named "Kosho".


----------



## GAB

John Bishop said:
			
		

> "In Search of Kenpo" (the plagiarism continues). This time Mitose has taken common Japanese folk tales, and attached the "Kosho" family name to them. After reading one particular excerpt, I kept wondering why it was so familiar to me. Then I remembered it was a scene from the Akira Kurosawa movie "Seven Samurai". Except in "Seven Samurai" nobody was named "Kosho".


Hi, 

Maybe when they made the movie they did'nt want to pay residuals so they didn't include the name:idunno: ...

I think in the movie with Clint Eastwood which was a western that took the plot and had a bunch of wooden boxes made out of pine trees, to show respect or something like that...:uhyeah: 

Yep, I have to dig deep for a rebuttel on that one. 

It was one of the reasons I was asking over on the Shotokan thread. Robert R said he thought it went back to "Bushi"  Matsumura, I think it could even go back to the Satsuma Clan when they invaded the Ryukyu Kingdom...Then that would be the link with the Samuri and Yoshida and Tracy Kenpo.

I even posted a thread about it, and Gichin Funa-koshi, or was it Kosho? 
Is one plural???:whip: Maybe James Mitose, was not the best speller either...

Sorry that is just how my Synaptics jump...

Regards, Gary


----------



## Mekosho

Wonders if the similarity between the kempo mottos, creeds whatever you want to call them, of James Mitose and Ed Parkers is anything like plagerism? Just curious....Was it not Mr. Parker who changed slightly the words from the orginal?


----------



## Doc

Mekosho said:
			
		

> Wonders if the similarity between the kempo mottos, creeds whatever you want to call them, of James Mitose and Ed Parkers is anything like plagerism? Just curious....Was it not Mr. Parker who changed slightly the words from the orginal?



If you go down that road the everything Al tracy has to say is true than ...


----------



## Mekosho

Who's to say they are wrong? You? I mean, who is most credible here?


----------



## Mekosho

Whats the location of your web site so I can check out the research you have done? Am not meaning to sound rude, but seriously, the Tracys word is not gospel by no means, but at least they have offered some kind of documentation....where do you get your info? word of mouth? Is no more credible


----------



## Doc

Mekosho said:
			
		

> Whats the location of your web site so I can check out the research you have done? Am not meaning to sound rude, but seriously, the Tracys word is not gospel by no means, but at least they have offered some kind of documentation....where do you get your info? word of mouth? Is no more credible


The key word is not "documentaion," but credible documentation, which apparently none of it existed before Parker passed away. The Tracy's have a history of bashing Parker to make their switch to the Mitose Lineage, (bazzar in itself) reasonable. Yeah sometimes word of mouth is better, especially if you heard it from the horses yourself because you were there, much like I was. Believe what you want. Gary has accomplished his mission. Dragging up old garbage that has been settled here many times before about an art he doesn't study.

If some spent as much time on their art as they do rehashing the same old bogus history, we'd all be better off.


----------



## Mekosho

Okay...hold on cause this may be just a little hard to deal with...but th Mr. Parker, definatly a GREAT martial artist, an innovater.......but believe it or not...and I know this will come as a shock to alot on here, but Mr. Parker was......human...yep, thats right..human, so to say credible documentation did not exsist before him is ludicris...

As far as being there...I will pose the question I have asked so many times on this board...when Mr. Mitose did his "silly" technique on a highly trained Parker blackbelt did he get hit? The way I hear it...ummm from the horses mouth, was that he actually escaped the punch (Hmmm thats what they teach us to do first) then hit the student on his foot...so lets see, strike, escape, strike back...no matter how silly it appeared...IT WORKED!!!!!!!!


----------



## Matt

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> My 'kempo brother' Dan Weston was gracious enough to give me a copy of James M. Mitose's: What is Self Defense? (Kenpo Jiu-Jitsu) and for that I sincerely thank him. I have gone over this book pretty thorough so far and there's much more in the book than the breakdown on the Tracy website. Here's what I have found:
> 
> The book consists of the following breakdown of technique (curriculum):
> 
> 1) 11 punching & striking defenses
> 
> 2) 7 kicking defenses
> 
> 3) 26 escape defenses (grab arts)
> 
> 4) 8 lock, break & throw defenses
> 
> 5) 17 weapon defenses (knife, sword-which could double for a club & gun)
> 
> 6) 20 women & girls defenses
> 
> So, far, it looks like a pretty extensive curriuclum to me, especially taken into consideration it was written in 1947. There's 69 self defense techniques with an additional 20 tailored to females for a total of 89 techniques.
> 
> There is also a section of 7 kenpo exercises for punching, striking including forearms and elbows and another section devoted to 4 kicking exercises, the fourth combining punching & kicking. That's all the physical.
> 
> A close scrutiny of these techniques show a 'core' similiaritiy with all the Hawaiian derived Kenpo/Kempo systems in existence today. It's all in black & white, objectively speaking. It's all there. The rudiments, the foundation, the basic structure and framework. Just add the evolution of 'continuous motion' with increased rapid fire striking from the kung fu influences of the succeeding teachers of this kenpo through the lineage and it is very clear that this system is the root art of these contemporary kenpo/kempo arts.
> 
> Now, the philosophy of Mitose in this publication is everything every parent would want their child to learn from a martial art. I'll go out on the limb to say it's is A #1 in anyone's opinion! HOWEVER, AND THIS IS A BIG HOWEVER, this philosophy is totally hypocritical of the way Mitose lived his life! Not even close. It's the old 'do as I say, not as I do' or simply one failing to 'practice what they preach'. It's really too bad because the book really has it together. If one didn't know better they could never connect the crimes committed by Mitose to the author of this book. It seems like he had a split personality.
> 
> Again, it's a damn good curriculum, even by today's standards. If someone today learned the techniques in that book and added continuous motion and more rapid fire hits or essentially principles and concepts of the Chinese arts, you'd have a damn good system. I'd update the weapon defenses a little, especially knife and gun to what we have learned over the years but still a good solid base to start with. Some have said these techniques were taken from Okinawan Kenpo Karate and the book of Mutzu but others have said that Mitose learned from an instructor of the Motobu lineage (Nabura Tanamaha). Sijo Adriano D. Emperado when posed a question from myself asked by Professor Gerry Scott: Could Mitose's knowledge and skill be that of someone who had studied only the surface arts and evolved it through his natural abilities? Sijo Emperado stated: 'Mitose's abilities was that of a master instructor'.
> 
> It was also very interesting to note that on Otcober 4, 1947, Tautao (Rubberman) Higami, then president of the Hawaii Judo Kan & middleweight wrestling champion of the world who stated in a letter he carefully scrutinized and studied the manuscript of this book and gave it an excellent review and recommendation congratulating Mitose on his effort and wishing him to succeed in his endeavors. *Note: Tautao Higami was also a teacher of Sijo Victor 'Sonny' Gascon from around 1945 to 1949 making his first level cerification in judo.
> 
> All in all, this book is worth reading. (I have the fourth printing, 2nd edition 1981 which is the orignal manuscript with new 'Introductory Notes' by Bruce Juchnik, Rick Alemany and Arnold M. Golub. I suggest it is read before drawing any final conclusions. This book is great to compare with Robert Trias' 'The Hand is My Sword' (Okinawan Shorei Ryu Kenpo Karate) and Ed Parker's 'Kenpo Karate: Law of the Fist & the Empty Hand' (many similiarites of technique).  With respect to all, "Joe'



Hey Joe-

I'm glad you brought the topic up, as it caused me to do a little 're-reading'. To warm up, I gave another look at Henry S. Okizaki's book, _The Science of Self Defense for Girls and Women_ which he published in 1929. It is a treatise on, you guessed it, self defense for girls and women. It coincidentally contains: 

A whole bunch of pages with 'Letters of recommendation' from local notables. 
4 wrist grabs, 2 lapel grabs, 4 'body grabs' (bear hugs, etc.), a two person grab, how to avoid blows to the head, a hair grab, how to hold and control an assailant after a grab defense(3 off of fake handshakes, etc.), one headlock, three knife defenses, and three gun defenses. 25  techniques. Not bad for 1929. 

Taking a gander at the table of contents for the WISD women's defense section, I see:

6 Wrist grabs, handshake defense, choke, front embrace, lapel grab, back and side hold, dagger/knife attack (3), pistol defense (3). 20 total, not far off the mark. 

All in all, some good, some bad in each book. 

So then I whipped out, _Okinawan Kempo_ Motobu Choki's 1926 book, and took a peek at the Makiwara section. The basic punching and kicking photos are the same, but Mitose seems to have elaborated. The punch techniques look similar, but not exact. 

I don't have a copy of Mutsu's book on hand (yet!), but if you go to:
http://www.kempokan.com/Glastonbury/books.html you can get a taste of the similarity. 


So what, he plagiarized the book - old news. At least he stole good stuff! He even does seem to have some ideas to contribute on top of what he 'borrowed'. What is the book worth? As insight as to what was 'state of the art' at that time, something perhaps. There is something really compelling to me, however, that isn't written in the book. It's not a technique, nor a concept, but it tells me volumes about James Mitose, and his story of Kenpo (or Kempo if you read all the letters of recommendation in the beginning). 

Mitose claims to have studied most of his life, but his posture and body mechanics give him away. Looking at the photos in Motobu's book, his posture is amazingly aligned, his stances are perfection. The agreement between his hips, shoulders, knees and feet indicate someone who is very comfortable with  their art. Someone with alot of miles on the odometer, so to speak. 

Now look at Mitose's spine. On virtually all the high line attacks, his upperbody trails his hips. He is shying away from the punch. I see this accomodation of the attacker at the expense of proper form in people with just a few years of training. It changes the connection to the hips immensely. 

Head downstairs and look at his stances. All over the place. Even on his finishing strikes his stances are completely misaligned. The weight is often shifted in the wrong leg, the hips are not free to move with the strike, and there are often times when his leg is dangerously exposed at full extension. 
These are not the stances of a 'Master'. 

Now look at his arms on parries. He ends up with his arms tied up accross his center line in many photos. This is a man walking through someone else's material. He may have it memorized, but he's just performing it at a mediocre level. 

It's not the material in his book, he borrowed it from several masters. The material is fine. The thing that leaps off the page at me now (after this re-read) is his performance of it. I guess that Biomechanics course I took last semester paid off.


----------



## Danjo

Okay...hold on cause this may be just a little hard to deal with...but th Mr. Parker, definatly a GREAT martial artist, an innovater.......but believe it or not...and I know this will come as a shock to alot on here, but Mr. Parker was......human...yep, thats right..human, so to say credible documentation did not exsist before him is ludicris...

*Ummm...how does Gm Parker being human have anything to do with documentation?*

As far as being there...I will pose the question I have asked so many times on this board...
*So many times? You have a total of 15 posts. (update: I guess you're right. Out of the 15 posts, 4 have asked or referenced this question and Doc has answered it before as someone who was there.)*

when Mr. Mitose did his "silly" technique on a highly trained Parker blackbelt did he get hit? The way I hear it...ummm from the horses mouth 

*Who is this?*

 was that he actually escaped the punch (Hmmm thats what they teach us to do first) then hit the student on his foot...so lets see, strike, escape, strike back...no matter how silly it appeared...IT WORKED!!!!!!!!

*This was explained above. The uke did a slow step through punch. Was he supposed to really try to smash a guy dressed like a priest without Parker's okay?*


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

There is an interesting thingy that happens in history. If someone writes about it enough, long enough, loudly enough, it tends to work it's way into the accepted body of documentation. The Tracy website has managed to be the seed source -- aside from the guy who hangs out with the actual killer, and has granted himself glorious accolades and titles -- for much of the disinformation regarding the Mitose lineage, and the "verifiable" history of kenpo.

Mekosho: I've spoken with a couple of the kenpo oldsters who were there when Mitose stopped by. To a man, they have all said his technique was rudimentary & slow, but solid. A solid Japanese block-punch-kick man in the presence of Chinese kenpo guys who could outspeed him at will. Having been introduced to a guy they were told was Parkers kempo grandfather, Mr. Parker got odd looks and sideways glances from most of those present. Not one of them have put to paper as much flappage as the Tracy's have.

If we are to believe the Tracy (& kenpo cousins) propaganda machine, we are all kempo descendants of Sohei monks, reaching back to the insights of the Great Shining One, or the Yoshida's, or some other such crap (a lot more romantic and appealing than the admission that we're all just a bunch of jerks on the bus, pursuing a hobby that's the brainchild of a core nucleus of guys). Unfotunately, because they are prolific writers, and so many searching the known database of the world (i.e., the internet) will happen accross the Tracy site, 50 years from now will find thiers' the accepted version of history, with the voices of "those who were there" having fallen silent to the sands of time.

Was there a Troy? Likely, since multiple sources of the time relate a Turkish city-state that feuded with Greeks. Was it besieged by a thousand ships from every Greek kingdom over a chick with a hot bod and comely face, and fought by Gods and the the Sons of Gods?  Yet, that is the written version of the story of Troy that survives to this day, so it is the reference to which all other references are compared.

Atlantis? An occasional mythological reference to someplace that used to be, but isn't anymore, has turned into a global fascination which has led to the fabrication of first-race legends (now accepted as fact by many New-Agers who consider themselves reincarnated Atlanteans), and even drove prominent, educated members of the 3rd reich to search for it's remnants and technology...all off a rumor, sprouted from a myth...told enough times, that it developed a life of it's own, and influenced the minds of people way beyond anything even remotely reasonable.

The Tracy take on the history of kenpo? ...c'mahn. Use your noodle, lad.

I'm sure any of the kenpo conspiracy theorists & fantastic historians would love to have their version of history be regarded as the next Iliad, with them as the next Homer. Problem in this case is, some of the soldiers from the walls of Troy are still around to tell it like it was, before the "fantastic" is all that remains for posterity. Some who've passed told of their experiences before they slid off the plate of life, so too many still remain with different versions of "the truth". In 50 years, the Tracy history will be gospel, with no survivors left to report history, accurately. Hell, maybe a new religion will start with the convict being elevated to diety, and representing the road to salvation?

D.


----------



## GAB

Doc said:
			
		

> The key word is not "documentaion," but credible documentation, which apparently none of it existed before Parker passed away. The Tracy's have a history of bashing Parker to make their switch to the Mitose Lineage, (bazzar in itself) reasonable. Yeah sometimes word of mouth is better, especially if you heard it from the horses yourself because you were there, much like I was. Believe what you want. Gary has accomplished his mission. Dragging up old garbage that has been settled here many times before about an art he doesn't study.
> 
> If some spent as much time on their art as they do rehashing the same old bogus history, we'd all be better off.


Hi Doc.

I had a great thread and it went off the screen because of this lack of Ram unit..Oh well... Or else the goblins got me..Probably better, cause I like this board and I can't wait for the Grand opening of Kenpotalk...

Don't study' Yea right..I don't hack on you about BKF or Sub level 4 so give it a break..I study...I train...

One thing I will say that was in the thread that went out is ...

Ed Parker did an interview in the "Masters Speak"...he said, he was the first commericial Martial Arts School ...Right.. and he said this in the 90s...

He copied Robert Trias, he even wanted to join his org. when his fell apart, and he gave it to the Tracy's, Along with his Crest that he didn't do all by hisself...And got copyrighted by Will...Or maybe that was later, it is so confusing...

He even copied Robert Trias get togethers and had them in Long Beach..

So lets get back to "James the criminal Mitose"...

You guys don't buy what Dr Ted Sumner is posting either...I will have to talk to him about that the next Time I e-mail him..His last e-mail to me said stay out of the cross hairs..Hmmmm I wonder what he ment...I am sure someone has done that before, must be why my ears ring...

More information to come when George Santana retires and writes his book, it will be interesting to say the least...

I sure do like the History of the Samurai, warriors and all...I like the history of FMA also so I train in both..OK...I talk the talk and have walked the walk.

But I will not bore you with my days at Metro and LAPD and the Hood and 77th and University and all that personal stuff. Semper Fi, while I am at it....  

Doc when you are in the "hood" ask some of the old timers if they remember the "Tinman" will you???

Remember the Murder of the Pawn Broker in University Division (70s) and him living in the Newhall area ???

Regards, Gary


----------



## GAB

Matt,

The Bio-mechanics stuff is what Hanshi talks about and said he started learning it when he talked to Mitose and Mitose told him all his stuff was "******** Edited to conform to MT's Profanity Policy"...

Can you imagine that old man saying that to Hanshi...

When he was in the 70s wild and all full of himself...he had already studied with Master Cabalas and Remy Presas and another 4 or 5 Great MA's Plus he was a Black Belt teaching Tracy stuff and of course that is when Al got mad and said some stuff to him and he re-evaluated his life and the rest is history...
You want to talk Body Motion and trianglization? ? ?

So lets..

Regards, Gary


----------



## GAB

Hi Danjo,

I think your web site speaks for itself. 

Professor Shuras likes you, so you are OK in my book even though we disagree...

Hey, I think there a lot of valid points to your perspective, I think their are valid points in other persons that have mentioned their disagreements, that is what makes this interesting...

Who is this??? Well it sounds like he knows and you want to find out...That is what a lot of the talk is all about, who knows what and who doesn't...

I think a lot of fishermen are out there and they want to write books, I hear Hanshi is going to write another one...

So where is your first hand information coming from???

I talk to Hanshi, John talks to Sijo, it is no secret about these guys feeling towards each other...But hey that was in the past and now we are here...

I be the official mouth piece for Hanshi..That is what my son was telling me today...Great! 

Anyway we will be doing it new and different in the Kenpotalk board in March Cannot hardly sleep I am so excited...Right!

I worked out so much in the last few days along with this computer I fell alseep at about 2000 and awoke again at 0123 can you believe that.
I figured it was a sign so I came to the board and saw all this stuff and started typing...This is my last one though I have got to hit the sack big day. 

In the morning at Sensei Pats school for a couple of hours on FMA and beating on bags, then got to finish some cabinet doors and go back to Sensei Tims dojo for "weapons Okinowan style" in the night.... 

Talk about MA. Did you see the "Executioner" Bernard Hopkins fight the other night??? I believe he is one of the best movers around and 40 years old..
He is poetry in motion, remind's me of some one I know...No not him, someone else... 

Regards, Gary


----------



## The Kai

Mekosho said:
			
		

> Okay...hold on cause this may be just a little hard to deal with...but th Mr. Parker, definatly a GREAT martial artist, an innovater.......but believe it or not...and I know this will come as a shock to alot on here, but Mr. Parker was......human...yep, thats right..human, so to say credible documentation did not exsist before him is ludicris...
> 
> As far as being there...I will pose the question I have asked so many times on this board...when Mr. Mitose did his "silly" technique on a highly trained Parker blackbelt did he get hit? The way I hear it...ummm from the horses mouth, was that he actually escaped the punch (Hmmm thats what they teach us to do first) then hit the student on his foot...so lets see, strike, escape, strike back...no matter how silly it appeared...IT WORKED!!!!!!!!


The problem there really is'nt a ton of credible documentation much earlier that the 1930's. Whether or not you base your time line off Ed Parker or not. It is not the advent of Parker that stoped the documentation! There just nothing beyond a few leaps of logic and history.
Punching to the foot, clever?-yes. Practical?, maybe. Efficent?, debatable. Awe inspiring?, seems not!  The problem, in my opinion, is the lack of a follow up or escape option in addition to your vulnerabilty to kick or knee strikes.  Would it work?  Thinking that you need punch in a pretty solid manner to go thru footwear and if you miss is some pretty unforgiving floor-Risky

Ed parker wanted to join Trias org??  Is this in any way verifiable?


----------



## Mekosho

See there Danjo, you answered some of your own questions...who was the horses ...errr mouth I was reffering too...DOC!!!! 
You said he answered it many times...if you check, only after the question being posed many times, did the story get changed to "a slow steady punch throwm" Oh well, sounds better that way huh? 
You asked how does Parker being human have anything to do with credible documentation...that was my point exactly...Doc had said that there has been none since the passing of Mr. Parker...
As far as the technique...I often wonder, had it a name...cuddly thorns of terror, or blazing saddles or winds of destruction, would it have held anymore credibility to the AK folks...just curious...good day, am off to work!


----------



## Danjo

Mekosho said:
			
		

> See there Danjo, you answered some of your own questions...who was the horses ...errr mouth I was reffering too...DOC!!!!
> You said he answered it many times...if you check, only after the question being posed many times, did the story get changed to "a slow steady punch throwm" Oh well, sounds better that way huh?
> You asked how does Parker being human have anything to do with credible documentation...that was my point exactly...Doc had said that there has been none since the passing of Mr. Parker...
> As far as the technique...I often wonder, had it a name...cuddly thorns of terror, or blazing saddles or winds of destruction, would it have held anymore credibility to the AK folks...just curious...good day, am off to work!


I think I said that you asked it four times, I only read it answered twice. Oh well. Anyways, this is getting pointless. My attempt at a summary has ignited hurt feelings which was not my intention. I should have read more carefully before stepping on the toes of those that view Mitose as a hero. I didn't know that there were so many out there. there will always be those that claim "secret knowledge" and because you can't prove a negative, the debate will go on endlessly. So I'll stop it on my end first. Respectfully---Dan


----------



## The Kai

Technique names

Bow of desperation
Kneel of Chance

My fav
Falling Hope


----------



## Matt

GAB said:
			
		

> Matt,
> 
> The Bio-mechanics stuff is what Hanshi talks about and said he started learning it when he talked to Mitose and Mitose told him all his stuff was "******** Edited to conform to MT's Profanity Policy"...
> 
> Can you imagine that old man saying that to Hanshi...
> 
> When he was in the 70s wild and all full of himself...he had already studied with Master Cabalas and Remy Presas and another 4 or 5 Great MA's Plus he was a Black Belt teaching Tracy stuff and of course that is when Al got mad and said some stuff to him and he re-evaluated his life and the rest is history...
> You want to talk Body Motion and trianglization? ? ?
> 
> So lets..
> 
> Regards, Gary



Sure! Do you think it's on topic enough for here, or do we have to start a new thread? I suppose if we reference pages and pictures we should be okay. Do you have a copy? 

if not, let's look at this page:

http://home.comcast.net/~matthewabarnes/example.jpg

This shows the lean / incorrect weighting on page 18, especially picture c and d where he does the uppercut and straight punch, and then the really weak stances / poor alignment on page 19 where he can't rotate his hips and has to lean forward to get the knuckle strike to the temple. 

Do you interpret it differently? 

Matt


----------



## The Kai

Matt

I wanted to say that you and Prof Joe are really making a good analytical study of this book!!  

As far as the technique, looking a little closer this time the one thing that strikes me (ouch!) is that his feet are'nt in agreement with the motions, i.e. punching with his back foot turned sideways.
The uppercut is painfully weak... but a lot of KarateKa make the mistake of throwing this off of just the arm

Matt, I don't mean to gusn but excellent job!  Everyone looked at what he was doing, not really how


----------



## Matt

The Kai said:
			
		

> Matt
> 
> I wanted to say that you and Prof Joe are really making a good analytical study of this book!!
> 
> As far as the technique, looking a little closer this time the one thing that strikes me (ouch!) is that his feet are'nt in agreement with the motions, i.e. punching with his back foot turned sideways.
> The uppercut is painfully weak... but a lot of KarateKa make the mistake of throwing this off of just the arm
> 
> Matt, I don't mean to gusn but excellent job!  Everyone looked at what he was doing, not really how



Thanks for the kind words. I was guilty of just looking at what as well. Until Joe brought it up, I hadn't taken the time to re-read it with that in mind. I had pretty much dismissed the book after digging into the plagiarism aspect, and hadn't given it much thought lately. 

The 'sideways foot' issue is a biggie. Folks fall into it because it requires less effort to stand that way, but it makes it mechanically impossible for the hip to contribute to the punch. There are other ways to generate power in that position, but he isn't set up for any of them in that photo sequence. 

Thanks again for the kind words. 

Matt


----------



## The Kai

Actually in the "d" photo on page 18, there is no way to get anything on that punch, short of forward lunging motion, and then the position of the back leg would  'put the brakes' on that idea!  You could change the angle of the punch, to bring ypur alinements back.  Perhaps you could kinda do a shifting stance idea to give you some pop, but his base is'nt nearly mobile enough.  I probably missed a few options

On the next page his alignments on the "c" and "d" photos is spectacularily bad.  Especially the counter punch!  Now comes the old saw--- Well he is hitting (non specific) nerve points, he does'nt need power.  Well, first off on a technical manual you should be technically correct.  Secondly, pressure point or no, if you been in a fight you punch to hit as hard as you can!  Anything else can get your butt in a sling!


----------



## Karazenpo

Hi guys! Great discussion, this is exactly what I hoped it would turn into. Doc, I know I have that info. somewhere, I'll keep looking but I do remember another AK guy who came away with something different. I hope someone else can remember this too. Matt, excellent job! I knew you'd get into it and this all comes down to my original question. How the hell could Mitose have pulled that off with students and ukes of the likes of William Chow and Thomas Young? Why did they ever not question this or did they? and we just never heard about it. They would have had to pick up on this! I don't get it. Thanks Todd for the kind words. Oh, almost forgot. Brother Peter Teymourez reminded me of this in a telephone converstation several years back. The opening scene of Enter the Dragon. Bruce Lee evidentally thought that technique (punch to the foot) was good enough to put in his movie. The question was also asked of what follow up would be practical. It will be interesting to go back to that movie scene and see what Lee did as a follow up. Don't get me wrong, I know it's a movie but Lee did incorporate a lot of his own stuff that he believed in in that movie besides the theatrical stuff and from what I recall that scene went pretty well with the audience. With respect, "Joe"


----------



## The Kai

I don't think Ole' Bruce followed it up.  The guy hopped awy clutch his foot. 

 How were Chow and Young fooled? werte they, was knowledge as extensive as it is today?  Plus how many guys in your town have B.S. credentials or could'nt produce a decent Black Belt, if you loaned him a Brown belt?  Do they have a couple of students
Case in Point-there is a ***  **** Do guy here in town.  Since the late 70's he has run a belt mill, widely known as such.  Now 20 years later he has produced enough "Black Belts" to get the respect of the general public.  The question now becomes If the teaching isn't good how can he have some many Black belts (can you see the answer built into the very question).


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

At the risk of sounding like I'm sniping -- which I'm really not...it's just an obvious observation I can't believe no one has ade yet -- ...

So, Gary is the mouthpiece for Juchnik online? If you had a reputation at stake, and wanted your side represented tactfully, intellignetly, wouldn't you select a more eriudite spokesperson than GAB?

And Gary...let loose with whatever criticisms you think you have against SL4; cryptically holding back just shows passive-aggression, not "in-the-know"-ness. It's a sound system representing lotsa good kenpo. Even if Doc were a member of the Nation of Islam and plotted usurping the globe -- which is doubtful at best, considering his history & vocation -- that would not change.  

It is better to keep your mouth closed, and let people think you're a fool...

Dave


----------



## Karazenpo

"I don't think Ole' Bruce followed it up. The guy hopped awy clutch his foot." 

See! Mitose knew that! Fight over! A finishing move! , LOL, ya, I do recall that from the scene, lol. Chow and Young? Let's say this is all true and Mitose perpetuated this con, perhaps they were embarrassed and didn't want anyone to know he pulled the wool over their eyes, perhaps they also felt it would hurt their own crediability since he was their only officially recorded teacher. Perhaps, he did pull a con but let's say more of an embellishment of what he knew. Going on the saying that the one eyed man is king in the land of the blind, someone taught Mitose Naihanchi, we have information we are waiting to be released that he did study Okinawan kenpo form the Motobu lineage through Nabura Tanamaha. Like some today, perhaps he simply embellished his training and like Todd stated not much was around then and these guys never studied a kenpo art before so what did they know? or did they? Later on it seemed Chow was pretty bitter over Mitose and always referred to him as a con man. He also stated that Mitose never gave him a black belt and that he was a black belt long before he ever met Mitose, that his father was his teacher. (I recall this from an article quoting Chow in a karate mag, I think it may have been Black Belt). Chow appeared to say this all out of anger so just maybe it's because he knew more about Mitose then he said publically. However, then we have to contend with Sijo Emperado's statement about Mitose having the ability of a master instructor and Grandmaster Kuoha stating to be a martial artist in Hawaii in those days you had to be able to hold your own and that Mitose was good in his own right. Confusing, isn't it? As far as those pictures go, Matt is right about the mechcanics but I have also seen very old pictures of some of the old time Okinawan masters and they didn't look all that good either compared to what has evolved, know what I mean? With respect, Joe


----------



## The Kai

See! Mitose knew that! Fight over! A finishing move!

Actually the fight went on for a while more.

Mechanics with in the martial arts, along with exercise methdology is constantly evolving.  But actually the older okinwans looked tighter than that, I could be wrong.  Mitose trained how long and with whom?


----------



## GAB

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> At the risk of sounding like I'm sniping -- which I'm really not...it's just an obvious observation I can't believe no one has ade yet -- ...
> 
> So, Gary is the mouthpiece for Juchnik online? If you had a reputation at stake, and wanted your side represented tactfully, intellignetly, wouldn't you select a more eriudite spokesperson than GAB?
> 
> And Gary...let loose with whatever criticisms you think you have against SL4; cryptically holding back just shows passive-aggression, not "in-the-know"-ness. It's a sound system representing lotsa good kenpo. Even if Doc were a member of the Nation of Islam and plotted usurping the globe -- which is doubtful at best, considering his history & vocation -- that would not change.
> 
> It is better to keep your mouth closed, and let people think you're a fool...
> 
> Dave


 

Hi Dave, 
Eriudite is not what would cut it with the onslaught of AK and personal attacks that go on with this subject...The continous attack etc. Since you are taking this Sublevel 4 ... I am glad you through in your oar, shows the same spirit as my self If I wanted to go to a fight I would not go to a college Campus for back up, I would go to Camp Pendelton...

Joe Lewis had an interview in that same book...I can agree with him more then I do PHDs on fighting...But we need Generals and fighters I am the latter... 

So many times I have heard how loved and respected Ed Parker is and was and most of the real slams to other organizations come from this group of hero worshippers...That is fine just leave the personal attacks for your own family and not me...

Like I say I was told not to go there they like to eat you up with personal attacks and rude behavior...
Well it happened on the other Kenpo boards and I gave a persistant reply never dodging or ducking just let the flak come no problem...

This board is different, I get warned when I go over the line or don't stay on topic But I don't slam persons I slam the topic... 

Hey why don't we do this I will be in your area the first week of March we can meet and talk and so forth, we can make a day of it I will ask Clyde if he is avaliable, we can get together...I am 63 I don't bend to the rude stuff or the attacks, you can't say or do anything that has not been done many times...

I've been in so many fights I can't even recall, on the street and any other place you can think of...I don't want to fight I just want to give some fairness to this lop sided Good ole EPAK and AK attack on most other systems...

Hanshi Bruce is a good Martial Artist he is a fighter and I guess that is what he needs right now...

So any thought's on that one big guy???

Regards, Gary


----------



## Karazenpo

The Kai said:
			
		

> See! Mitose knew that! Fight over! A finishing move!
> 
> Actually the fight went on for a while more.
> 
> Mechanics with in the martial arts, along with exercise methdology is constantly evolving.  But actually the older okinwans looked tighter than that, I could be wrong.  Mitose trained how long and with whom?



Ya Todd, didn't he finish it with an arm lock using his legs and the guy tapped out? I'd have to see it again, it's been a long time. Professor Jaime Abregana told me in phone conversation that he had positive information that Mitose studied from Nabura Tanamha. He wasn't a well known instructor but he did teach in Hawaii in that time period. He was either a first or second generation Choki Motobu black belt. Mitose never made a black belt under him though. This and more is awaiting release in that A&E Documentary that's coming up soon. That's all I know for now. One other thing, Professor Abregana had also stated that he was told Mitose never left Hawaii. I understand this now conflicts with my friend Dr. Ted Sumner's documents. That's what I mean when I say, confusing, isn't it?


----------



## Danjo

Here's another thing that occured to me as I was reading this: What if the book didn't represent what Mitose taught at all? What if it was merely put together for the money as Adriano Emperado stated? What if they came to Mitose and said, make a book and we'll give you money and he then looked around at the books that existed in Japanese and decided to imitate them? Why would they come to Mitose and ask him to make a book? Well, he was the first one to open up the art to non-Asians, so who else would they ask? This might explain a lot of the discrepancies noted above, and explain why Chow, Emperado, Young etc. were all willing to train with him. Why, after all, would Chow take Empeado to Mitose if he was nothing more than a conman? So here's the question I have: How closely did the techniques in "What is Self Defense?" represent what was actually taught by Mitose?


----------



## Matt

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> As far as those pictures go, Matt is right about the mechcanics but I have also seen very old pictures of some of the old time Okinawan masters and they didn't look all that good either compared to what has evolved, know what I mean? With respect, Joe



I've seen some pictures of Funakoshi with similar issues. However, the trigger that pointed me in the mechanical direction was the pictures of Motobu Choki. He was tight, consistent, and mechanically sound. 

In fact, this points to the idea that Gary brought up, the fighter vs. the Ph. D. 

Motobu was a fighter, all his life. Funakoshi was a retired schoolteacher. I guess that's why the pictures of Motobu look like that. This is exactly what I mean by the pictures telling me all I need to know about Mitose. 

Matt


----------



## John Bishop

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> How the hell could Mitose have pulled that off with students and ukes of the likes of William Chow and Thomas Young? Why did they ever not question this or did they? and we just never heard about it. They would have had to pick up on this! I don't get it.  "Joe"


It's obvious that they did pick up on it. We seem to forget that most of Mitose's black belts left him to train with others.  
William Chow left.
Bobby Lowe went with Mas Oyama and Kyokushinkai.  
Paul Yamaguichi went with Chow, then Emperado, then Goju Ryu.  
Arthur Keave also left.
I have never heard anyone say any great things about Thomas Young, other then he was Mitose's "first" black belt.  Not to say that he was a bad martial artist, but there are no stories or remembrances of him being a exceptionable martial artist either.  
The only notable story I heard about Thomas Young from people who knew him, was that he would refer to himself as "Dr. Young", even though he a was a "mailman" by profession.


----------



## The Kai

Matt said:
			
		

> I've seen some pictures of Funakoshi with similar issues. However, the trigger that pointed me in the mechanical direction was the pictures of Motobu Choki. He was tight, consistent, and mechanically sound.
> 
> In fact, this points to the idea that Gary brought up, the fighter vs. the Ph. D.
> 
> Motobu was a fighter, all his life. Funakoshi was a retired schoolteacher. I guess that's why the pictures of Motobu look like that. This is exactly what I mean by the pictures telling me all I need to know about Mitose.
> 
> Matt


If you look at picture "c" on page 19 you will see that on the step back, his foot has actually circled behind itself!!  Now the Down Block is no longer strong and covering, but a swat behind your own back.  Would he do that step on purpose?  No, it is usally a sign of someone who is rushed or unpolished in stepping.
Probably why the counter punch is more of a flicking motion!

Would Mitose publish a misleading book why???
Also he stressed loyality, not asking questions and blind adherence to his way, sound familiar??


----------



## Matt

Danjo said:
			
		

> Here's another thing that occured to me as I was reading this: What if the book didn't represent what Mitose taught at all? What if it was merely put together for the money as Adriano Emperado stated? What if they came to Mitose and said, make a book and we'll give you money and he then looked around at the books that existed in Japanese and decided to imitate them? Why would they come to Mitose and ask him to make a book? Well, he was the first one to open up the art to non-Asians, so who else would they ask? This might explain a lot of the discrepancies noted above, and explain why Chow, Emperado, Young etc. were all willing to train with him. Why, after all, would Chow take Empeado to Mitose if he was nothing more than a conman? So here's the question I have: How closely did the techniques in "What is Self Defense?" represent what was actually taught by Mitose?




I don't think he put it together just for the money. It was that and the credibility it would provide. There's a book on marketing that I read that pretty much said, write a book / article / etc. so that you will be perceived as 'the local expert'. 

"They" didn't ask him to write a book. The manuscript was written in 1947. 
The first 1953 edition had a rubber stamp / pencil copyright notice.It was privately published, by Mitose and Arthur Keawe. 

Matt


----------



## Karazenpo

Yes Matt, I agree, Funakoshi was one of the ones I was specifically thinking of. Danjo, you have an excellent point! There very well could be something to that. Let's see if we can ascertain exactly what Mitose taught to these guys. Anyone?


----------



## Danjo

John Bishop said:
			
		

> It's obvious that they did pick up on it. We seem to forget that most of Mitose's black belts left him to train with others.
> William Chow left.
> Bobby Lowe went with Mas Oyama and Kyokushinkai.
> Paul Yamaguichi went with Chow, then Emperado, then Goju Ryu.
> Arthur Keave also left.
> I have never heard anyone say any great things about Thomas Young, other then he was Mitose's "first" black belt. Not to say that he was a bad martial artist, but there are no stories or remembrances of him being a exceptionable martial artist either.
> The only notable story I heard about Thomas Young from people who knew him, was that he would refer to himself as "Dr. Young", even though he a was a "mailman" by profession.


Good point. It still makes me wonder why Professor Chow took Sijo Emperado to Mitose. Did these guys leave Mitose, or did they go other ways when Mitose left for California?


----------



## Karazenpo

John Bishop said:
			
		

> It's obvious that they did pick up on it. We seem to forget that most of Mitose's black belts left him to train with others.
> William Chow left.
> Bobby Lowe went with Mas Oyama and Kyokushinkai.
> Paul Yamaguichi went with Chow, then Emperado, then Goju Ryu.
> Arthur Keave also left.
> I have never heard anyone say any great things about Thomas Young, other then he was Mitose's "first" black belt.  Not to say that he was a bad martial artist, but there are no stories or remembrances of him being a exceptionable martial artist either.
> The only notable story I heard about Thomas Young from people who knew him, was that he would refer to himself as "Dr. Young", even though he a was a "mailman" by profession.



True, John, true but a lot of students leave their instructors shortly after black belt. Parker left Chow, does that mean Chow wasn't a capable instructor? Cerio left Pesare shortly after and Pesare's still teaching. I remember you saying they left because he only taught basics over and over or maybe they left because they saw the other evil side of him. Maybe he was selling rank for big bucks? They very well could have left because they figured him out but why didn't they just say it? Why didn't any of them say it? Why doesn't Sijo Emperado say it? Why would he say he had the abilities of a master instructor? I had Professor Scott ask him outright and it's posted on the Kajukenbo Cafe, that's another sticking point, know what I mean? Grandmaster Kuoha also states in the positive. So much controversy.........


----------



## The Kai

Maybe publishing the book gave him a lot of crecibility (which is why I wish I could write better or at least appear better looking in photos).  Together with the temple stories?  By the time the gilt wore off, people were already taken.


Remember Columbus dicovered america while looking for something else, maybe we all need a muse to release those things beneath your surface


----------



## John Bishop

Matt said:
			
		

> "They" didn't ask him to write a book. The manuscript was written in 1947.
> The first 1953 edition had a rubber stamp / pencil copyright notice.It was privately published, by Mitose and Arthur Keawe.
> 
> Matt


Exactly Matt.  
Mitose had some of his students, Chow, Young, Keave, Eli, McCandless, invest in the "self published" book.  Dr. Keave did the editing and corrected the bad english.  
Sort of shoots down all the arguments that "the publisher spelled Kempo wrong", or "the publisher demanded more pictures, so the true aspects of Kosho Ryu were not really shown".  
Truth is, Mitose was the publisher.


----------



## The Kai

John Bishop said:
			
		

> Exactly Matt.
> Mitose had some of his students, Chow, Young, Keave, Eli, McCandless, invest in the "self published" book. Dr. Keave did the editing and corrected the bad english.
> Sort of shoots down all the arguments that "the publisher spelled Kempo wrong", or "the publisher demanded more pictures, so the true aspects of Kosho Ryu were not really shown".
> Truth is, Mitose was the publisher.


Wow


----------



## John Bishop

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> True, John, true but a lot of students leave their instructors shortly after black belt. Parker left Chow, does that mean Chow wasn't a capable instructor? .........


Parker moved 7000 miles away to attend college.  Then moved to California.  It wasn't like today, where you can video train with your instructor, or email him everyday.  They grew apart.  They had differant philosophies.  
The best instructor in the world is useless if your thousands of miles away, and can't train with him.  



			
				Karazenpo said:
			
		

> I remember you saying they left because he only taught basics over and over or maybe they left because they saw the other evil side of him. Maybe he was selling rank for big bucks?
> .........


You read the interview with Sijo Emperado.  And it's now on DVD also.  He said that 'after he got his black belt from Chow, he went to get his instructors certificate from Mitose".  "But that he was angry when he found out that Mitose had been selling the same ranks to others".  
At that time (1952) Mitose was still considered Chow's kenpo instructor.  For the most part the break up occurred in 1953 when Mitose left the islands and abandoned all his students.



			
				Karazenpo said:
			
		

> They very well could have left because they figured him out but why didn't they just say it? Why didn't any of them say it?
> .........


Back then you didn't.  I guess you said it by your leaving someones school.  



			
				Karazenpo said:
			
		

> Why doesn't Sijo Emperado say it? Why would he say he had the abilities of a master instructor? I had Professor Scott ask him outright and it's posted on the Kajukenbo Cafe, that's another sticking point, know what I mean? Grandmaster Kuoha also states in the positive. So much controversy.........


"Master" is a relevant word.  There has to be something to compare it to.  I've never heard or read anywhere, where Mitose's abilities are ever put on the same level as: Chow, Emperado, Parker, Lowe.  
In Sijo's eyes, Mitose was "the master" because he was his teachers teacher.  But I've never heard him or anyone else say that they were in awe of his abilities.  
Was he more proficient at fighting then the untrained that would come into a dojo and want to try on the instructor.  Probably.   But you really don't hear any stories like that either.  
I would love to hear some pre-prison stories of Mitose's martial prowess.  
But all I hear is stories of his schemes.  Even his book was a scheme to make money.  And he cheated his own students out of money to publish it.   

So lets hear some factual accounts of Mitose's martial arts prowess.  
And some factual accounts of how he strove to improve his students lives.
Instead of all the mystique and hero worship built on lies and deception, purpetrated by a man desperatly trying to get out of prison.


----------



## Karazenpo

Thank you John for your answers. I knew you would clairfy my questions. 

John stated: "So lets hear some factual accounts of Mitose's martial arts prowess. 
And some factual accounts of how he strove to improve his students lives.
Instead of all the mystique and hero worship built on lies and deception, purpetrated by a man desperatly trying to get out of prison."
__________________

I have to say John is correct on this. Is there anyone who can give us some positive facts, actual accounts, true stories of this man? Someone? Hanshi Juchnik? Anyone?


----------



## Karazenpo

Here's something that just hit me. In the book I have it shows Mitose, Chow, Harry Pang, Simeone M. Eli and Thomas Young doing a self defense demonstration and there are thank you letters and so forth for the demo and yes, it shows Mitose doing a defense against a four man attack. Now, wouldn't other area martial artists attend these demos to see what the other guy has got? I mean some of the big wigs of the day must have seen these demonstrations and it does show Mitose participating himself and not just his students. Wouldn't they have noticed if he was incompetant for who he had said he was?  Good question I think.


----------



## Danjo

John Bishop said:
			
		

> Parker moved 7000 miles away to attend college. Then moved to California. It wasn't like today, where you can video train with your instructor, or email him everyday. They grew apart. They had differant philosophies.
> The best instructor in the world is useless if your thousands of miles away, and can't train with him.
> 
> 
> You read the interview with Sijo Emperado. And it's now on DVD also. He said that 'after he got his black belt from Chow, he went to get his instructors certificate from Mitose". "But that he was angry when he found out that Mitose had been selling the same ranks to others".
> At that time (1952) Mitose was still considered Chow's kenpo instructor. For the most part the break up occurred in 1953 when Mitose left the islands and abandoned all his students.
> 
> 
> Back then you didn't. I guess you said it by your leaving someones school.
> 
> 
> "Master" is a relevant word. There has to be something to compare it to. I've never heard or read anywhere, where Mitose's abilities are ever put on the same level as: Chow, Emperado, Parker, Lowe.
> In Sijo's eyes, Mitose was "the master" because he was his teachers teacher. But I've never heard him or anyone else say that they were in awe of his abilities.
> Was he more proficient at fighting then the untrained that would come into a dojo and want to try on the instructor. Probably. But you really don't hear any stories like that either.
> I would love to hear some pre-prison stories of Mitose's martial prowess.
> But all I hear is stories of his schemes. Even his book was a scheme to make money. And he cheated his own students out of money to publish it.
> 
> So lets hear some factual accounts of Mitose's martial arts prowess.
> And some factual accounts of how he strove to improve his students lives.
> Instead of all the mystique and hero worship built on lies and deception, purpetrated by a man desperatly trying to get out of prison.


There we go. Even Thomas Mitose ( a person that most people have a lot of respect for) said that his dad taught in a bizzare way by telling him to imagine jumping off a cliff and hugging someone etc.


----------



## Benjp

Hanshi Juchnik was in communication with several of the senior members of the original self-defense club (Thomas Young, Paul Yamaguchi).  In fact, Paul Yamaguchi regularly attends the Gathering (Thomas Young did too, when he was alive).

Why would these seniors support Mitose's "prison-learning student" if they believed that Mitose was a fraud?  Furthermore, why would they support Hanshi Juchnik at all?

Ben


----------



## Benjp

> Originally posted by Matt:
> 
> I've seen some pictures of Funakoshi with similar issues. However, the trigger that pointed me in the mechanical direction was the pictures of Motobu Choki. He was tight, consistent, and mechanically sound.



In defense of the pictures... 

The way that I'm taught Kosho Ryu self defense is to escape with both the attacker and defender unharmed.  

We're taught onna (female, percussion) striking and otoko (male) atemi waza (striking tricks). 

The percussion striking is faster, and provides (if done properly) for a quick and safe escape.  It's similar to faking, but provides instant tactile feedback and reaction.  

The otoko striking (characterized by sound body alignment, power, and vital striking locations) is highly discouraged and shouldn't really even be used.

When the pictures are thought of as techniques, or as a means to an end (typical of non-Kosho kenpo) then they look ridiculous.  To me, however, they look like the type of things my instructor might do..  Yes, the pictures are described in the text as techniques.  But this was to be one of multiple volumes.

Ben

Disclaimer: I am a student of Juchnik Hanshi's system of Kosho-ryu Kempo.  I try to keep an open mind about the history and other Kenpo systems, and I've learned a tremendous amount from this board.  No disrespect intended..


----------



## GAB

The Kai said:
			
		

> The problem there really is'nt a ton of credible documentation much earlier that the 1930's. Whether or not you base your time line off Ed Parker or not. It is not the advent of Parker that stoped the documentation! There just nothing beyond a few leaps of logic and history.
> Punching to the foot, clever?-yes. Practical?, maybe. Efficent?, debatable. Awe inspiring?, seems not! The problem, in my opinion, is the lack of a follow up or escape option in addition to your vulnerabilty to kick or knee strikes. Would it work? Thinking that you need punch in a pretty solid manner to go thru footwear and if you miss is some pretty unforgiving floor-Risky
> 
> Ed parker wanted to join Trias org?? Is this in any way verifiable?


Hi Kai,

It is in Hanshi's book "to Fall Seven Rise Eight"..

Hi all, 
Now you are raging on stills and we went through this on the Tatum thread only now those who stuck up for the problem with stills want to bad mouth Mitose..Interesting. He stood and did things with escaping in mind and you had to have been there to understand..Hanshi teachs all of the moves and explains them..Go and buy a few of his DVDs and you will be better informed.

Hi, John I tried to buy a DVD from your group, they did not even respond back. I can understand, that is a very closed board and all... Not even close to the ability to discuss on this board... Autocratic come's to mind...
Will you sell me one, it is for a good cause, is my money no good???

I remember a class fighter in a welter weight class I had to arrest, I choked him out and then in the jail, I had to come to the probationers aid and choke him out again, he spent the night in the padded cell...Red Lopez gym in Pacoima... One of there tough 150 pounders or so...these tough small guys are not fighting tough big guys, why, they would be hurt really bad... 5 pounds they change a weight division...Heavy weight goes without saying...

I am currently 6-2 220 and I work out. Just got back 60 minutes on the bags and then worked sticks on the bags for another 30 minutes...Broke a bungy attachment and had to fix it, to much streaching and it gave at the s hook came back at me I avoided it and escaped...Great thing to know how to escape...

Foot work is really important and that is what FMA is all about...Of course you have hands and sticks but you need to know foot work..Bernard Hopkins knows foot, he goes from the left lead to the right lead and back again and he 
dominates...HaHa I am over here, now I am in your face, now I am over here...

Static sucks OK... Talk all you want about it, it still sucks...Hanshi Bruce wrote quite a few books, how many have read any of them??? I have 50 books by different authors and still I buy more and DVD's and I still think Hanshi knows what he is talking about, the book you are bad mouthing is 55+ years...Old...There is good and bad keep it in the right perspective...

I have seen some stances in Ed Parkers Books that make me laugh...I won't bad mouth his movement, I just find some of the stuff he said wrong...Nick Adams all 150 lbs of him, and Ed Parker now that was great. Right...Hollywood...Heck Elvis was not a big man but he towered over Ed so they had to hand pick the pictures...

I thought you were doing good Joe, now I get the picture...

EDIT
Danjo...Ok I will try...Thanks for the heads up I do go into that mode very easily...Regards... 
Regards, Gary


----------



## Danjo

GAB said:
			
		

> Hi Kai,
> 
> It is in Hanshi's book "to Fall Seven Rise Eight"..
> 
> Hi all,
> Now you are raging on stills and we went through this on the Tatum thread only now those who stuck up for the problem with stills want to bad mouth Mitose..Interesting. He stood and did things with escaping in mind and you had to have been there to understand..Hanshi teachs all of the moves and explains them..Go and buy a few of his DVDs and you will be better informed.
> 
> Hi, John I tried to buy a DVD from your group, they did not even respond back. I can understand, that is a very closed board and all... Not even close to the ability to discuss on this board... Autocratic come's to mind...
> Will you sell me one, it is for a good cause, is my money no good???
> 
> I remember a class fighter in a welter weight class I had to arrest, I choked him out and then in the jail, I had to come to the probationers aid and choke him out again, he spent the night in the padded cell...Red Lopez gym in Pacoima... One of there tough 150 pounders or so...these tough small guys are not fighting tough big guys, why, they would be hurt really bad... 5 pounds they change a weight division...Heavy weight goes without saying...
> 
> I am currently 6-2 220 and I work out. Just got back 60 minutes on the bags and then worked sticks on the bags for another 30 minutes...Broke a bungy attachment and had to fix it, to much streaching and it gave at the s hook came back at me I avoided it and escaped...Great thing to know how to escape...
> 
> Foot work is really important and that is what FMA is all about...Of course you have hands and sticks but you need to know foot work..Bernard Hopkins knows foot, he goes from the left lead to the right lead and back again and he
> dominates...HaHa I am over here, now I am in your face, now I am over here...
> 
> Static sucks OK... Talk all you want about it, it still sucks...Hanshi Bruce wrote quite a few books, how many have read any of them??? I have 50 books by different authors and still I buy more and DVD's and I still think Hanshi knows what he is talking about, the book you are bad mouthing is 55+ years...Old...There is good and bad keep it in the right perspective...
> 
> I have seen some stances in Ed Parkers Books that make me laugh...I won't bad mouth his movement, I just find some of the stuff he said wrong...Nick Adams all 150 lbs of him, and Ed Parker now that was great. Right...Hollywood...Heck Elvis was not a big man but he towered over Ed so they had to hand pick the pictures...
> 
> I thought you were doing good Joe, now I get the picture...
> 
> Regards, Gary



Can we say non sequitur? I'm sorry GAB, but I can really only understand about half of what you write. It is as though you are trying to be cryptic. either that or you're thinking that the rest of your unfinished sentences are self evident when they are not. No offense, but please try to write a bit more clearly.


----------



## John Bishop

GAB said:
			
		

> Hi Kai,
> 
> Hi, John I tried to buy a DVD from your group, they did not even respond back. I can understand, that is a very closed board and all... Not even close to the ability to discuss on this board... Autocratic come's to mind...
> Will you sell me one, it is for a good cause, is my money no good???
> 
> Regards, Gary


The DVD's are not hard to get. 
They're advertized on my website, and a few other Kajukenbo websites. 
They're availiable on the Kajukenbo Cafe (unless you've been banned there)
They're listed here at the Martial Talk ProShop. 
In fact we even sell a few copies on EBAY.

http://kajukenboinfo.com/kajukenbo_products.html

http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20828

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7137056967&ssPageName=STRK:MESE:IT


----------



## TChase

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> A while ago someone had mentioned that there was a current American Kenpo senior who also met Mitose at Mr. Parker's school (although I don't recall if it was the same visit as the 'foot strike' but I think it was) and came away with a whole different impression of Mitose. He had said something like Mitose did a technique on him and hurt him with it. I can't remember what topic it was on or even if it was on this forum but I distinctly remember the story. Does anyone recall this story and who the AK guy was? I thought I copied and saved it in my documents and I'll keep looking but no luck yet. "Joe"


 
I'm pretty sure Mr. Pick was there when Mitose visited Ed Parkers school.  I'll ask him what he thought about Mitose when I see him in about a month or so.


----------



## Karazenpo

GAB said:
			
		

> Hi Kai,
> 
> It is in Hanshi's book "to Fall Seven Rise Eight"..
> 
> Hi all,
> Now you are raging on stills and we went through this on the Tatum thread only now those who stuck up for the problem with stills want to bad mouth Mitose..Interesting. He stood and did things with escaping in mind and you had to have been there to understand..Hanshi teachs all of the moves and explains them..Go and buy a few of his DVDs and you will be better informed.
> 
> Hi, John I tried to buy a DVD from your group, they did not even respond back. I can understand, that is a very closed board and all... Not even close to the ability to discuss on this board... Autocratic come's to mind...
> Will you sell me one, it is for a good cause, is my money no good???
> 
> I remember a class fighter in a welter weight class I had to arrest, I choked him out and then in the jail, I had to come to the probationers aid and choke him out again, he spent the night in the padded cell...Red Lopez gym in Pacoima... One of there tough 150 pounders or so...these tough small guys are not fighting tough big guys, why, they would be hurt really bad... 5 pounds they change a weight division...Heavy weight goes without saying...
> 
> I am currently 6-2 220 and I work out. Just got back 60 minutes on the bags and then worked sticks on the bags for another 30 minutes...Broke a bungy attachment and had to fix it, to much streaching and it gave at the s hook came back at me I avoided it and escaped...Great thing to know how to escape...
> 
> Foot work is really important and that is what FMA is all about...Of course you have hands and sticks but you need to know foot work..Bernard Hopkins knows foot, he goes from the left lead to the right lead and back again and he
> dominates...HaHa I am over here, now I am in your face, now I am over here...
> 
> Static sucks OK... Talk all you want about it, it still sucks...Hanshi Bruce wrote quite a few books, how many have read any of them??? I have 50 books by different authors and still I buy more and DVD's and I still think Hanshi knows what he is talking about, the book you are bad mouthing is 55+ years...Old...There is good and bad keep it in the right perspective...
> 
> I have seen some stances in Ed Parkers Books that make me laugh...I won't bad mouth his movement, I just find some of the stuff he said wrong...Nick Adams all 150 lbs of him, and Ed Parker now that was great. Right...Hollywood...Heck Elvis was not a big man but he towered over Ed so they had to hand pick the pictures...
> 
> I thought you were doing good Joe, now I get the picture...
> 
> EDIT
> Danjo...Ok I will try...Thanks for the heads up I do go into that mode very easily...Regards...
> Regards, Gary



Gary stated: I thought you were doing good Joe, now I get the picture...

I say: Gary, I'm not trying to do good by anybody if that's what you mean, I am trying to get at the TRUTH and if the TRUTH slights someone that is not my problem, that is theirs.

Now, Gary, by the same token, I happen to agree with you here: "Now you are raging on stills and we went through this on the Tatum thread only now those who stuck up for the problem with stills want to bad mouth Mitose."

Again, I'm not taking sides, I am not trying to win one side over the other, it's simply a search for the truth. I am attempting to present both sides when something credible is being stated. I have approached John the same way but he hasn't said this: "I thought you were doing good Joe, now I get the picture..." he simply explained his viewpoint so please, do not take offense, yes, I will disagree with you or anyone else if I feel it is in all fairness. Respectfully, Joe


----------



## BlackCatBonz

hey prof joe

the problem with any picture sequence used for demonstrating something as dynamic as martial arts is that each picture is only a moment in time. everyone talks about stance stance stance.......there are no stances in motion......and this always ends up being a problem when someone is looking for absolutes, and i believe this is where the problem of people doing kata that looks like a slideshow comes from. mitose stated that kempo is more like boxing....and if you look at what he does in some shots.....his posture is very boxer like.
lets see how i get blasted for this.


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Gary:

If you expect to be in town, we should meet. I'm all for meeting any one, anytime, to discuss any topic. I believe the truth has the ability to stand or fall on it's own. Having a vested interest only in the exploration of ideas and facts, I am personally quite capable of tossing the deck in the air, and letting the cards land where they will.

Couple things...concise communication. Generally, being cryptic, vague, or non-specific does not help assist with the flow of conversation or the exchange of ideas. It's fine if you're a general or fighter, and not a PhD, but I assure you -- even field corporals know how to radio in an idea clearly...otherwise they are apt to fall prey to their own ordnance.

Elvis taller than Parker? Have you ever met either? Parker was a bear of a man, fully a head taller than the average bear. There was no need to mess with or select photos. Get yer fact checkers out...preferably, prior to bringing half-baked ideas to a public forum, populated by people who trained with Parker, and remember his size. Yes, I did some training with him. Podagra, and all. I can't help but wonder if you ever met him, based on the inference of your statement. In fact, kenpo was billed in some circles for years as "big mans karate", tailored for the American large frame, as opposed to the small Asian frames with shorter comparative limbs. Still think Parker was a tiny Hawaiian?  I hope I'm misunderstanding your implication...if so, it sort of speaks, again, to clarity of communication.

As for the voices of people who had been there...One of my kenpo instructors, on and off over a few years, was the late Bob Perry. He ran the Garden Grove Parker school for awhile, then split to do his own thing (still in the Garden Grove school). I asked him about Mitose, and he related being there during a visit, in which the upper belts sparred a bit with Mitose. His words were, basically, "The guy could come forward like a train, and you knew you didn't want to be in the way. But his movements were all very basic and one dimensional. We could side-step and pop him about ten times for every one time he caught us, but when that one hit came it had the potential for landing pretty hard." Mr. Perry continued to relate the commonly heard story of turning to Mr. Parker with a "I though you said this guy was a master?" look, and Parker just shrugging his shoulders. Nothing seen in Mitose that night compared to the level of sophisticated basics Parker was exploring in his kenpo.

Saint Parker?  Naw. I don't go there or buy that. My big nag on the kosho group is the nescessity to belong to ancient lineages. I'm perfectly happy learning the innovative brainchild of guys I've met, without it belonging to some ancient guild of karate or kung-fu gods.

Think.

Dave


----------



## Mekosho

LOL, the funniest thing when reading all of this is the fact that no matter WHAT Mitose was...a master martial artist, a liar, a fraud, a murderer, one who could not fight his way out of a wet paper bag...he has still made his place in history...we CANNOT have serious discussions about kempo w/out someone bringing him up!!! I wonder how many of our names will be brought up in circles around the globe when someone speaks of great martial artist...(this excludes some of our own opinions) lol! I wonder...I wonder, of all the police officers, teachers, instructors, authors or just plain ole nobodys (like me) on the board, I wonder if our names will ever be mentioned again after we are gone...I wonder if anyone will put as much time and  energy into proving us right or wrong as we have Mitose? Thing is...ALL of us have done our part to imortalize GGM Mitose...from those of us who devote our lives to discrediting him, to those of us who try to see that maybe, just maybe, he was who he claimed to be!
What we have to stop and realize is, Mitose was a master...even if it was a master of nothing more than fraud...he did it better than we do our professions...From a con artist point of veiw, wow...the ultimate con job...still going years after death....lol!


----------



## Michael Billings

TChase said:
			
		

> I'm pretty sure Mr. Pick was there when Mitose visited Ed Parkers school. I'll ask him what he thought about Mitose when I see him in about a month or so.


 I think he was also there when Bruce Lee was thrashing the tree out in back of the South Pasadena school ... but that is another story for another thread.

 -Michael


----------



## kelly keltner

My, My, My

It's been a while since I've read and really posted on any Mitose topics. It's nice to know the more things change the more they stay the same.

kelly


----------



## Matt

Benjp said:
			
		

> In defense of the pictures...
> 
> The way that I'm taught Kosho Ryu self defense is to escape with both the attacker and defender unharmed.
> 
> We're taught onna (female, percussion) striking and otoko (male) atemi waza (striking tricks).
> 
> The percussion striking is faster, and provides (if done properly) for a quick and safe escape.  It's similar to faking, but provides instant tactile feedback and reaction.
> 
> The otoko striking (characterized by sound body alignment, power, and vital striking locations) is highly discouraged and shouldn't really even be used.
> 
> When the pictures are thought of as techniques, or as a means to an end (typical of non-Kosho kenpo) then they look ridiculous.  To me, however, they look like the type of things my instructor might do..  Yes, the pictures are described in the text as techniques.  But this was to be one of multiple volumes.
> 
> Ben
> 
> Disclaimer: I am a student of Juchnik Hanshi's system of Kosho-ryu Kempo.  I try to keep an open mind about the history and other Kenpo systems, and I've learned a tremendous amount from this board.  No disrespect intended..



I understand the difference in the striking types you describe, but neither should deform your posture,e.g. put you in a bad position,  and as the descriptions of the techniques indicate, these strikes were to end the encounter, not provoke a reactionary movement. If he was using the strike in that manner, he was using the wrong tool at the wrong time.

Matt


----------



## Matt

GAB said:
			
		

> Hi Kai,
> 
> 
> Static sucks OK... Talk all you want about it, it still sucks...Hanshi Bruce wrote quite a few books, how many have read any of them??? I have 50 books by different authors and still I buy more and DVD's and I still think Hanshi knows what he is talking about, the book you are bad mouthing is 55+ years...Old...There is good and bad keep it in the right perspective...



True, but the book that tipped me off to the issues at hand is 75+ years old. Are you saying that Mitose's book isn't old enough to be good?   

It's true as well that static images can't truly convey everything aout Mitose's movement skills, but still images can tell you where someone's weight is at that instant, whether his hips and shoulders agree, whether he's making the most of his anatomical structures at a given moment. Take a large batch of pictures, like a book's worth, and that's a lot of snapshots. A large sample size, even if the photographer was shooting at random, tends to give an accurate representation of the quality of the movement. As I see it, Bruce is better than his teacher. 

Matt


----------



## The Kai

To rise Seven, Fall eight"  Does'nt really have a alot of documentation much earlier than the 50's.  

Mitose's alinements are awfull, ono ne temma or not he is literally swatting behind his back for the down block.  With the back foot rotated out as he has he would have trouble touching the opponent with his back hand, never mind the thouht of actually striking.  Since onna ne temma is based off of quick hits, dont you need to protect your center?   Apparently not.  Mitose is expanding/contracting (chest and shoulders)type of punchs-which would be male striking.
Bruce Juchnik is a much, much better than this!


----------



## The Kai

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> hey prof joe
> 
> the problem with any picture sequence used for demonstrating something as dynamic as martial arts is that each picture is only a moment in time. everyone talks about stance stance stance.......there are no stances in motion......and this always ends up being a problem when someone is looking for absolutes, and i believe this is where the problem of people doing kata that looks like a slideshow comes from. mitose stated that kempo is more like boxing....and if you look at what he does in some shots.....his posture is very boxer like.
> lets see how i get blasted for this.


Actually there is stance work in boxing, how you use your hips and rear heel is critical for the right croos, left hook and any uppercut.  The transitions (stances in motion) are smaller, you don't get to stpe thru to learn/use your power.   It is not so much an absolute, but the basis  or foundation of your power.  If we assume that boxers don't hit with correct mechanics (which is wrong) relying instead on a flow of techniques,  the awkward twisting of the shoulders and punching so far out of alinement would preclude ever hurting anybody


----------



## The Kai

Actually when I saw Ed Parker back in the 80's he was shorter than my teacher (who was actually hugh), but some where around my size (6 foot)


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## Karazenpo

To All: Please go to the San Jose Kenpo Discussion Forum (Dr. Ted Sumner). You can't copy and paste there or else I would have so you'll have to go check this out. There is a post by Bill Hensel titled 'Another Tic on the T Shirt of Kenpo'. It tells how and to a lesser degree what Mitose taught. Pretty interesting because I never heard or read this before. Please check it out and post your comments. "Joe"


----------



## koga ha

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> To All: Please go to the San Jose Kenpo Discussion Forum (Dr. Ted Sumner). You can't copy and paste there or else I would have so you'll have to go check this out. There is a post by Bill Hensel titled 'Another Tic on the T Shirt of Kenpo'. It tells how and to a lesser degree what Mitose taught. Pretty interesting because I never heard or read this before. Please check it out and post your comments. "Joe"


There you go...
[font=Trebuchet MS, Trebuchet] 
[font=Trebuchet MS, Trebuchet] [/font][font=Trebuchet MS, Trebuchet]*[url="http://www.network54.com/Forum/326583"]Return to Forum*  [/font][font=Trebuchet MS, Trebuchet]*Another Tic On The T Shirt Of Kenpo*[/font]
[font=Trebuchet MS, Trebuchet]February 22 2005 at 11:19 AM[/font][font=Trebuchet MS, Trebuchet] Bill Hensel 				Bill Hensel				  (_no login_)
from IP address 64.48.192.176[/font][font=Trebuchet MS, Trebuchet]I generate this post because Mr. Sumner asked me to. Having re-read the interview of the late Thomas Young, titled "An Evening With A Gentleman" written by John and Sherie Funk and published in "The Kosho-Shorei Newsletter" Volume 6, Number 1, 1986, I have come up with another question for the forum to contemplate. However, may I , in a readers digest fashion fashion speak to Thomas Youngs memory of how Mitose actually taught kenpo to his students as per the interview I have just made reference to. This will construct the ground work that supports my question or questions later on in this post.

Thomas Young addresses the style of teaching that Mitose used when teaching kenpo in Hawaii as one of "modeling". Mitose would himself peform a sequence of movements and the student body would observe with no comment. Then they would attempt to replicate the very movements that Mitose had just performed for them. Students didnot ask questions at all. In fact if the students didnot like Mitoses methods they were allowed to leave and study else where. Young states he never asked Mitose a single question while he was a student. Repetition and mastery were important. Young mentions that only a minimum number of techniques were actually taught to his students. Mitose taught few katas but did teach Nihanchi.

Mitose assesed his students with a critical eye and if a student demonstrated a philosophical bent, then Mitose would meet PRIVATELY with this student and transmitt some very important Philosophical concept or idea to the student. Mitose considered humbleness, courtesy, trust, awareness, s strong desire to learn and a flexible mind as the cornerstones of his method of evaluating a student under his tuteledge.

From this information that I have gleamed in this interview, I am now tempted to ask the following question.

Where did the vast quanity of Self Defense Techniques that we teach in the Tracy System actually come from? William Chow was not certified as Shodan directly by James Mitose. The fact is, Thomas Young certified Chow himself to the rank of Shodan. My point is this if Mitose didnot totally respect Chow from a philosphical view point, would Mitose actually transmit a vast quanity of techniques to Chow?. Historically Mitose didnot teach students lacking in philosophical understanding to learn the art of kicking. Mitsoe didnot teach very many years while in Hawaii thus limiting his ability to transfer a large quanity of techniques to his students. Afterall, remember that Young said Mitose taught at a very slow rate and exspected mastery. Did Young have under his belt hunderds of Self Defense techniques. Perhaps not, and if that is so where did Chow learn all those techniques that he taught to Ed Parker who then taught to Al Tracy. Young was given Mitoses school when Mitose left Hawaii and I believe this speaks volumes of Youngs Senior position relative to Chow.

Any perspectives are ofcourse welcome.

Regards,
Bill Hensel - Pine Colorado

[/font][font=Trebuchet MS, Trebuchet] [/font][font=Trebuchet MS, Trebuchet]*Respond to this message* [/font][font=Trebuchet MS, Trebuchet]_Responses_ 


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[*]*Tic Tic* _- Dave Simmons on Feb 22, 2005, 3:01 PM_
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[font=Trebuchet MS, Trebuchet]
[*]*Re: Another Tic On The T Shirt Of Kenpo* _- Dave Hopper on Feb 22, 2005, 3:03 PM_
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[*]*Re: Another Tic On The T Shirt Of Kenpo* _- Roger on Feb 22, 2005, 9:09 PM_
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[*]Re: Another Tic On The T Shirt Of Kenpo _- Dave Hopper on Feb 22, 2005, 9:45 PM_[/font]
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[*]*Where did the techniques come from?* _- Sifu Villerreal on Feb 23, 2005, 5:10 AM_
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[*]*what I see* _- Jim Hanna on Feb 23, 2005, 5:48 AM_
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[/font]Back To San Jose Kenpo Karate [/font][/url]


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## Karazenpo

Thank you, koga ha, but how did you do that? When I attempt to copy and paste from my computer on San Jose Kenpo it won't take it. "Joe"

PS: I also must admit my computer skills aren't the greatest for I just evolved from the 'hammer & chisel' era, lol.


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## Danjo

koga ha said:
			
		

> [font=Trebuchet MS, Trebuchet][font=Trebuchet MS, Trebuchet]
> Thomas Young addresses the style of teaching that Mitose used when teaching kenpo in Hawaii as one of "modeling". Mitose would himself peform a sequence of movements and the student body would observe with no comment. Then they would attempt to replicate the very movements that Mitose had just performed for them. Students didnot ask questions at all. In fact if the students didnot like Mitoses methods they were allowed to leave and study else where. Young states he never asked Mitose a single question while he was a student. Repetition and mastery were important. Young mentions that only a minimum number of techniques were actually taught to his students. Mitose taught few katas but did teach Nihanchi.
> [/font][/font]


Sounds like video training  Watch and imitate with no questions. How do we know whether he taught only a few techniques because his students weren't ready for more? Could it be because that's all he knew and once that was figured out by various students such as Chow, they left him? 

Here's another thought on Mitose's fighting ability: GM Kuoha stated that you had better know how to fight if you were teaching martial arts in Hawaii back in the day. But, did he take into consideration the fact that Mitose was known for not fighting his own battles? He had people fight and do his evil bidding later in life, so why wouldn't he have set up a situation like that in Hawaii also? The threatened to bring a sword to deal with Sijo Emperado after all. Doesn't sound like someone used to settling things mano a mano to me.


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## koga ha

Danjo said:
			
		

> Sounds like video training  Watch and imitate with no questions. How do we know whether he taught only a few techniques because his students weren't ready for more? Could it be because that's all he knew and once that was figured out by various students such as Chow, they left him?
> 
> Here's another thought on Mitose's fighting ability: GM Kuoha stated that you had better know how to fight if you were teaching martial arts in Hawaii back in the day. But, did he take into consideration the fact that Mitose was known for not fighting his own battles? He had people fight and do his evil bidding later in life, so why wouldn't he have set up a situation like that in Hawaii also? The threatened to bring a sword to deal with Sijo Emperado after all. Doesn't sound like someone used to settling things mano a mano to me.


man, danjo, your cup must be half empty.


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## Danjo

koga ha said:
			
		

> man, danjo, your cup must be half empty.


Rather half empty than full to the brim of BS. I'll live with it


----------



## Karazenpo

Again, to treat this in total fairness, Danjo has a point which seems to align with what John Bishop stated about these guys leaving Mitose because all he did was teach them basics over and over again. By the same token, in defense of Mitose, isn't that how the old kenpo or martial arts in general was taught back then? I read once that the old kenpo was a solid understanding of the basics with a limited number of techniques that when borrowed from the basics would create other techniques. Back to Danjo, it had been said that Mitose did use Chow as a strong arm back then and it has also been said the Chow was a doorman/bouncer in Mitose's house of ill repute (info from the Tracy website, I believe they got it from the court transcripts of his trial). This is not to start any flames, just laying everything out on the table, both pros and cons in an attempt to find the truth. There's no reason why we can't do this all civilly. If it gets into a flame war then the moderator will lock the thread and we end up back at square one, so let's respect everyone's input and keep this an open and friendly discussion. Thanks, with respect to all, "Joe"


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## The Kai

you never here about mitose's fighting ability, and isn't it generally acknowledged that Chow was the brawn?


Mitoses's training methods sounds very "cultish".  Obediance, no questions, loyality, honor


----------



## Karazenpo

The Kai said:
			
		

> you never here about mitose's fighting ability, and isn't it generally acknowledged that Chow was the brawn?
> 
> 
> Mitoses's training methods sounds very "cultish".  Obediance, no questions, loyality, honor



Todd, again, to be fair to all parties, I think the teaching was pretty much like that back then. I'd rather not give names but one of the seniors out here on the east coast was relating a story that when performing a kata back in his early years he questioned his instructor on the effectiveness of using the upward (rising) 'chicken wrist' (crane's head strike) up under the chin, stating it would injure the wrist. He told us his instructor's response was to beat him up, I guess with 'chicken wrists', lol. He said he never mentioned it again. I know his instructor and to this day and he is a super nice guy and a helluva martial artsit with an excellent reputation but I honestly think that's how things were done. I bet many of the seniors here on this forum have heard or even witnessed many stories like that.


----------



## GAB

Hi Dave,

Yes, I would like to meet and talk as travelers, one going one way and another go his.

I guess big to me is different then to others One son is 6-4 + another 6-7 My brother 6-6 my brother in law 6-5 my self 6-2 my grandson 6-2+ he is 16. another brother in law 6-4+ Weight, well we won't go there. But me I am one of the smaller a petite 220... 

Look at the Basket ball players the foot ball players big and small all doing a great job and taking some massive hits...

Ed Parker was a big man among small men in height..I am talking stature not what they have accomplished...

Choki Motobu was reported to be well over 6-0.  Wrong 5-4....

What does it really matter, it matters because it is not the truth and that is the problem with people talking about their hero or the fish they caught...

It is not in the 1st principle of Tracy Kenpo 'Think Without any Dishonesty'...

Yea Kai, what crop, I just finished Infinite insight #2 read that and then tell me about the sect of Parker. LDS was called a cult also, is it.

Don't go there Kai, I will eat you up...

Regards, Gary


----------



## Danjo

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> Todd, again, to be fair to all parties, I think the teaching was pretty much like that back then. I'd rather not give names but one of the seniors out here on the east coast was relating a story that when performing a kata back in his early years he questioned his instructor on the effectiveness of using the upward (rising) 'chicken wrist' (crane's head strike) up under the chin, stating it would injure the wrist. He told us his instructor's response was to beat him up, I guess with 'chicken wrists', lol. He said he never mentioned it again. I know his instructor and to this day and he is a super nice guy and a helluva martial artsit with an excellent reputation but I honestly think that's how things were done. I bet many of the seniors here on this forum have heard or even witnessed many stories like that.


Hell, I even remember some of that type of training. In Shotokan, back in 78 or 79, we were being taught gun disarms and I foolishly asked, "what if the guy has two guns?" and held out my hands in the appropriate manner. My instructor just gave me a back kick in the midsection. I went flying backward about 6 feet. No more stupid questions from me!


----------



## GAB

Hi Professor,

I agree with you, it is just now turned to, he has no correct body movement, not in the right position, his mechanics are all off. Like I just said about Infinite Insights #2 it has quite a bit of information with out reading, just look at the pictures...Transition and not the best picture etc... 

I have sold Horse's they pose crummy, you do the best you can, even when your best Stud is bought by the largest Paint Stud Farm in Denmark, he has some pictures that arn't so good.  OSO X is his name in USA, now he is Mr. X...

# 1 Principle OK... Take care, Gary


----------



## Karazenpo

GAB said:
			
		

> Hi Professor,
> 
> I agree with you, it is just now turned to, he has no correct body movement, not in the right position, his mechanics are all off. Like I just said about Infinite Insights #2 it has quite a bit of information with out reading, just look at the pictures...Transition and not the best picture etc...
> 
> I have sold Horse's they pose crummy, you do the best you can, even when your best Stud is bought by the largest Paint Stud Farm in Denmark, he has some pictures that arn't so good.  OSO X is his name in USA, now he is Mr. X...
> 
> # 1 Principle OK... Take care, Gary



I'm just wondering, Gary, just wondering that somewhere, someone is sitting on an old 8mm film can of James Mitose doing his kenpo, wouldn't that be something?


----------



## The Kai

GAB said:
			
		

> Hi Dave,
> 
> Yes, I would like to meet and talk as travelers, one going one way and another go his.
> 
> I guess big to me is different then to others One son is 6-4 + another 6-7 My brother 6-6 my brother in law 6-5 my self 6-2 my grandson 6-2+ he is 16. another brother in law 6-4+ Weight, well we won't go there. But me I am one of the smaller a petite 220...
> 
> Look at the Basket ball players the foot ball players big and small all doing a great job and taking some massive hits...
> 
> Ed Parker was a big man among small men in height..I am talking stature not what they have accomplished...
> 
> Choki Motobu was reported to be well over 6-0. Wrong 5-4....
> 
> What does it really matter, it matters because it is not the truth and that is the problem with people talking about their hero or the fish they caught...
> 
> It is not in the 1st principle of Tracy Kenpo 'Think Without any Dishonesty'...
> 
> Yea Kai, what crop, I just finished Infinite insight #2 read that and then tell me about the sect of Parker. LDS was called a cult also, is it.
> 
> Don't go there Kai, I will eat you up...
> 
> Regards, Gary


First off GAB thank for given us your family statsics

Where do you not want me to go?  If you want I can lend you a spoon!  Was the comment about the book-truth be told most of the documentation revolves around the 60's and 70's.

The comment about travelers meeting each going thier own way, makes like zero sense.
The reference to Basket ball players, again zero sense.
Now Ed parker was a big guy, but small in spirit?  Wow, you really are a fair guy!
I haven'tread the Infinite series lately, but I don't recall any membership drive for any church


The rules of Kenpo (as you call them)are actually Mushaii's precepts,by the way.  I think you need to quote your sources a tad more honestly.
How tall is Motubu, or parker who really cares!


----------



## The Kai

I doubt film was rather expensive back then.

Would it be good to see or not?


----------



## Karazenpo

The Kai said:
			
		

> I doubt film was rather expensive back then.
> 
> Would it be good to see or not?



Well, Todd, it would certainly answer a lot of questions. I'm sure it would still be debated somewhat but it would give us a better idea of Mitose-'the martial artist',.


----------



## The Kai

Judging by the fact of the photo's in the book well....

Mechaics are the key ingredent to Kenpo, the idea that it is frozen should'nt lead to a picture of misalinements, but a picture of alinements.  The idea that cuz Boxing flows the fighters are out there windmilling thier arm and flailing around is really wrong!  I remember Tyson fought some one in the 80's the knockpunch was a left hook.  The overhead camera got it on film, the stills could been used to illustrate how to connect your punch to your body!!


----------



## koga ha

The Kai said:
			
		

> Judging by the fact of the photo's in the book well....
> 
> Mechaics are the key ingredent to Kenpo, the idea that it is frozen should'nt lead to a picture of misalinements, but a picture of alinements. The idea that cuz Boxing flows the fighters are out there windmilling thier arm and flailing around is really wrong! I remember Tyson fought some one in the 80's the knockpunch was a left hook. The overhead camera got it on film, the stills could been used to illustrate how to connect your punch to your body!!


oh really...

because something looks "misaligned" to you doesn't necessairly mean it's wrong.


----------



## The Kai

No you could be going with misalinement cuz you are afraid of hurting someone, you like to swat at things.  Again Kosho was based on sword work, and alot of swordmans liked to turn the body at odd angles to make it hard to employ thier blade.  Stepping back you like to swing you foot behind yoourself, cuz positioning don't really matter

By the way I'm not being cyrptic merely ironic


----------



## The Kai

koga ha said:
			
		

> oh really...
> 
> because something looks "misaligned" to you doesn't necessairly mean it's wrong.


Actually i'm sorry I did'nt let you post an analysis.  I know you probably wanted to talk principles and concepts rather than cryptic half sentences... Reason rather that riddles.  
So... Well ... Go ahead
why you you turn half away??


----------



## koga ha

The Kai said:
			
		

> Actually i'm sorry I did'nt let you post an analysis. I know you probably wanted to talk principles and concepts rather than cryptic half sentences... Reason rather that riddles.
> So... Well ... Go ahead
> why you you turn half away??


do you have a crystal ball?  didn't think so...how do you know what i want to talk about?  

well, since your small mind knows so much i don't think i need to shed anymore light.


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## TChase

Michael Billings said:
			
		

> I think he was also there when Bruce Lee was thrashing the tree out in back of the South Pasadena school ... but that is another story for another thread.
> 
> -Michael


Yes he was, and I have heard those stories.:asian:


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## GAB

The Kai said:
			
		

> First off GAB thank for given us your family statsics
> 
> Where do you not want me to go? If you want I can lend you a spoon! Was the comment about the book-truth be told most of the documentation revolves around the 60's and 70's.
> 
> The comment about travelers meeting each going thier own way, makes like zero sense.
> The reference to Basket ball players, again zero sense.
> Now Ed parker was a big guy, but small in spirit? Wow, you really are a fair guy!
> I haven'tread the Infinite series lately, but I don't recall any membership drive for any church
> 
> 
> The rules of Kenpo (as you call them)are actually Mushaii's precepts,by the way. I think you need to quote your sources a tad more honestly.
> How tall is Motubu, or parker who really cares!


 
Kai see you must read it and then read it again then post...

It was about size, you hear about the strong mighty such and such...
Many quotes about how large Ed Parker was, not true... Read it again Todd.

It is the 9 principles of Tracy Kenpo...Taken from Musashi's  "The Book of Five Rings," I have said that like 3 times Todd...Read it three times, then we will talk about it...OK. They Borrowed Just like Edmund K. Parker...Maybe just like James Mitose or Charlie Chaplin???

How tall? Is not the point, Truth is the Point...so I will agree with that one anyhow...I was talking to Dave and had his name there Todd, I am sure it makes sense to him...

I know, yea, you must not live in a community of bicycleist, on there mission going around the neighborhood...

Regards, Gary


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## The Kai

koga ha said:
			
		

> do you have a crystal ball? didn't think so...how do you know what i want to talk about?
> 
> well, since your small mind knows so much i don't think i need to shed anymore light.


Fantastic, and here I thought you wanted to sit at the adult table.  Well, I don't have a crystal ball-but since you were commenting about the post on alinements you would have the decency to reply on the same topic.
BTW you are mixing Cliches
Small mind cant be filled anymore
Your ignorance is a shadow I con't shed any light on works better

I am waiting your next half sentence, partial statement


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## The Kai

GAB

Honestly where to start
Wow you are sounding even more "nutsie" than before
If you get cut do you bleed babble?
Actually I read post a few times, I think most people do in a need to follow the convoluted way yoiu present your bias. of course there is misspelling's and the use of there and thier interchangingly.
Wow


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## GAB

Kai, How are doing? Are you OK? Just wondering have you seen, the post from Kelly? Make any sense??? Bashing is not good and talking about it is better, I am a firm believer if we will not take it personally we will do better...

What is your take on that???

I vote for Joe Shuras to be a Moderator...Regards, Gary


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## The Kai

Nope have'nt seen the post

I don't like taking things to a lower level, but man you can't talk about the facts 
Prof Joe's cool by me


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## GAB

The Kai said:
			
		

> Nope have'nt seen the post
> 
> I don't like taking things to a lower level, but man you can't talk about the facts
> Prof Joe's cool by me


The facts, like Mitose was a criminal? OK, Is Hanshi Bruce and his teachings from a criminal make him one?

I have been given the keys to Hanshi's Information, It will be forth coming.

This time I am not depending on anyone but Hanshi and me...I will be talking to him tonight stay tuned...

Regards, Gary


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## The Kai

No< Bruce Juchnik is a good, clean instructor.  He did not learn the crimianl stuff, probably because that's not what he went to learn.  He went to met James Mitose the martial artist, not the mitose the con man


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## John Bishop

Moderator's Suggestion:

We have been having a excellent discussion on the topic of James Mitose's first book.
Let's please try to stay on this topic. 
Please refrain from making snide remarks toward each other.
Discussions of religion (other then those mentioned in the book), or somebody's actual height (unless it's in reference to illustrations in the book), have nothing to do with this topic.

Nobody has to agreed with everyone, so if you have something to contribute to the discussion, or a well thought out question, please post it. 
A short insult here and there contribute's absolutely nothing to the discussion.


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## Ray

I was much happier just working out, practicing and learning kenpo than I ever have been trying to figure out the factual history.  

As far as the book "What is Self Defense" when I looked the images on Tracys web site and compared them to the pictures in "Kenpo Karate, Law of the Fist and the Empty Hand" by Parker; or to any other book that tries to portray action with pictures; they all fail.

Looking at Mitose's "#4 countering LEFT punch" shows a picture and verbiage for a RIGHT punch.  It has way too many (foot) steps in it for my taste.  And the verbiage that says "your hand should be clenched into a fist and held lightly against your waist, ready for the next move" doesn't make any sense.  You might hold your fists at your sides when doing sets or forms, but who fights/spars like that?  Did anyone ever fight like that (and succeed)?

You can't (maybe you can, but I can't) learn MA from a book.  I can review notes that I've made over the years and it helps to remember what I've already learned.  I suppose you could look at a book and raise ideas that could be tried out; but only after you already have sufficient knowledge/expertise to mentally turn the photos into movies.

You could take the example, #4 and say, with a few more strikes and a few less (foot) steps it could resemble "five swords,"  but it doesn't as presented.

Back in the mid 80s when I started at kenpo, people used to tell me that kenpo was full of politics.  Back then I was too busy to listen to them.  But kenpo certainly seems political today from what I see.

I've thought about choosing an organization to join; or trying to find someone to continuing learning from; but from discussions like this thread it all seems futile.


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## Danjo

GAB, 

I am looking eagerly forward to the secrets that you and Juchnik share together between you. The more specific the info on what he actually claims to have learned from Mitose, the better. When you post it, please, please, please do so in a clear and coherent manner. Too often it seems as though you type too fast and that causes what you write to sound as if they were written by Tonto, Frankenstein,  or Johnny Weismuller's Tarzan. So, YES, please give us details about what you have. If Mitose is not getting a fair shake, and he really had a lot more to contribute, then let us know specifically what it was. Clearly it should be able to be communicated via writing given that actual training was not allowed in prison and therefore whatever Juchnik got must have been verbally transmitted. Thanks again.


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## Karazenpo

Ray said:
			
		

> I was much happier just working out, practicing and learning kenpo than I ever have been trying to figure out the factual history.
> 
> As far as the book "What is Self Defense" when I looked the images on Tracys web site and compared them to the pictures in "Kenpo Karate, Law of the Fist and the Empty Hand" by Parker; or to any other book that tries to portray action with pictures; they all fail.
> 
> Looking at Mitose's "#4 countering LEFT punch" shows a picture and verbiage for a RIGHT punch.  It has way too many (foot) steps in it for my taste.  And the verbiage that says "your hand should be clenched into a fist and held lightly against your waist, ready for the next move" doesn't make any sense.  You might hold your fists at your sides when doing sets or forms, but who fights/spars like that?  Did anyone ever fight like that (and succeed)?
> 
> You can't (maybe you can, but I can't) learn MA from a book.  I can review notes that I've made over the years and it helps to remember what I've already learned.  I suppose you could look at a book and raise ideas that could be tried out; but only after you already have sufficient knowledge/expertise to mentally turn the photos into movies.
> 
> You could take the example, #4 and say, with a few more strikes and a few less (foot) steps it could resemble "five swords,"  but it doesn't as presented.
> 
> Back in the mid 80s when I started at kenpo, people used to tell me that kenpo was full of politics.  Back then I was too busy to listen to them.  But kenpo certainly seems political today from what I see.
> 
> I've thought about choosing an organization to join; or trying to find someone to continuing learning from; but from discussions like this thread it all seems futile.



Yes Ray, I understand your point but Kenpo was in a state of evolution even during Mr. Parker's first book (1960). What many of us see are the rudiments, the basic framework or 'core' of the techniques. My Tracy Kenpo brothers on the San Jose forum have seen the same thing in their techniques in reference to Mitose's. I received a pm from a nice American Kenpo lady from the east coast who was comparing the woman & girls self defense of Mitose's book with a women's self defense book by Mr. Parker and began to see similiarities of techniques. Coincidence you may say, maybe, some may even say there's a connection to all general self defense techniques in all martial arts but since Mitose was Chow's instructor and Chow was Emperado's/Parker's and Parker's was Tracy's then why is it not so hard to believe it's simply the evolution of what Mitose taught. Seems a logical conclusion whether someone likes the man or not. I don't believe Parker, Emperado, Chow just made up their stuff from scratch, I don't buy it no matter how talented they are simply because there common denominator was James Mitose as much as some wish to distance themselves from that it is nevertheless a fact! With respect, Prof. Joe


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## kelly keltner

Wasn't it said somewhere that the old masters taught wrong on purpose?

kell


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## Danjo

kelly keltner said:
			
		

> Wasn't it said somewhere that the old masters taught wrong on purpose?
> 
> kell


That would make them deceitful liars who perpetuated fraud to their students.


----------



## Ray

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> ...but since Mitose was Chow's instructor and Chow was Emperado's/Parker's and Parker's was Tracy's then why is it not so hard to believe it's simply the evolution of what Mitose taught. Seems a logical conclusion...


I didn't say I didn't believe it.  I didn't indicate which line I believe.



			
				Karazenpo said:
			
		

> ..I don't believe Parker, Emperado, Chow just made up their stuff from scratch...


Somewhere in the past someone did.



			
				Karazenpo said:
			
		

> ...common denominator was James Mitose as much as some wish to distance themselves from...


Certainly, Mitose figures in the history and always will.  Just how he really fits in, I may never decide.  I've seen allusions that he was a WWII spy for the US, and so on...I've seen just as many sources says that he was a fraud.  I've seen statements supposedly from Chow and Parker discounting him.  And I've seen others idolize the man.


----------



## Ray

kelly keltner said:
			
		

> Wasn't it said somewhere that the old masters taught wrong on purpose?


Then we could save a lot of trouble and money by going to someone who teaches wrong but thinks they teach right?


----------



## Danjo

kelly keltner said:
			
		

> Wasn't it said somewhere that the old masters taught wrong on purpose?
> 
> kell


Listen, I could understand someone doing like the Gracies did. they would offer a 40 lesson self defense course. If you wanted to train after that, they taught you the whole system. You didn't get rank for the self defense, but I think you got a certificate of completion. But just teaching false stuff is wrong.


----------



## John Bishop

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> Coincidence you may say, maybe, some may even say there's a connection to all general self defense techniques in all martial arts but since Mitose was Chow's instructor and Chow was Emperado's/Parker's and Parker's was Tracy's then why is it not so hard to believe it's simply the evolution of what Mitose taught. Seems a logical conclusion whether someone likes the man or not. I don't believe Parker, Emperado, Chow just made up their stuff from scratch, I don't buy it no matter how talented they are simply because there common denominator was James Mitose as much as some wish to distance themselves from that it is nevertheless a fact! With respect, Prof. Joe


Mitose only claimed one lineage, system, and line of instructors.

Prof. Chow trained in Kenpo, judo, jujitsu, boxing, and kung fu. James Mitose was only 1 of his instructors.

Mr. Parker trained under Chow, and also borrowed from many Chinese instructors in California. James Mitose was the instructor of only 1 of his instructors. 

I can't speak for Kara-ho Kenpo, or American Kenpo, but:
Kajukenbo, and all it's sub-systems (Karazenpo, Kenkabo, Ken-ka Kung Fu, CHA-3 Kenpo, Shaolin Kempo, etc.) share a lineage of 5 founders with 5 distinct systems, and techniques from seven systems. Kenpo being only one of the 7.
So in Kajukenbo and it's off-shoots, James Mitose is no more a "common denominator" then: William Chow, Henry Okizaki, Sig Kufferath, Sam Luke, Bing Fai Lau, T. Inouye, J. Rhee, Alfredo Peralta, Lau Bun, or Wong Kok Fut.

In the Karazenpo off-shoots, add the 5 Kajukenbo founders, Joe Emperado, Marino Tiwanak, Woodrow McCandless, John Leoning, Sonny Gascon, Walter Godin, and a few more instructors.


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## Mekosho

Am just curious...am sure someone can explain this to me though...but I OFTEN here that B. Juchnik could never have been taught actual techniques while visiting Mitose in prison as that was not allowed...all he could do was LISTEN as Mitose described the techniques...If that is the case, I have to agree, yes, it makes one wonder just how much could have really been taught...BUT...from what I understand, Hanshi met Mitose thru a friend who worked at the prison as a guard...Guru Santana!!! Now lets see...is it totally inconcievable that one could look the "other way" as various ummm, physical activities took place? I mean after all, some very high power crime bosses thru out history still ran their various families from prison...drugs are a big problem in the prison system as well, I am fairly sure thay are against the rules as well...so, to use that one rule as a basis to declare physical actions where NEVER taught is just plain ridiculous...are we really that niave?


----------



## John Bishop

Mekosho said:
			
		

> ...from what I understand, Hanshi met Mitose thru a friend who worked at the prison as a guard...Guru Santana!!! Now lets see...is it totally inconcievable that one could look the "other way" as various ummm, physical activities took place? ?


Sure you could, if you wanted to lose your job and career.  And of course if you were the only guard present everytime these visits took place.  



			
				Mekosho said:
			
		

> I mean after all, some very high power crime bosses thru out history still ran their various families from prison...drugs are a big problem in the prison system as well, I am fairly sure thay are against the rules as well...so, to use that one rule as a basis to declare physical actions where NEVER taught is just plain ridiculous...are we really that niave?


Yes, these crime bosses did and still do pay off corrupt guards and prison officials.  
And I don't think it is niave to think that Mr. Santana is a honest guard, who wouldn't turn his back to violations of prison policies.


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## Mekosho

LOL! You are absolutly right Mr. Bishop...Guru Santana...or was it just george the struggling guard back then? Is far to honorable a person to have ever bent the rules...see what I am saying..times change, people change...
Again, I just feel it is totally naive to stand on the "it was against the rules" line 100%...
I am sure you yourself are a very honorable person as well Mr. Bishop...but is it likely that you NEVER break a rule? Highly doubtful! Ever get a speeding ticket? 
I mean, that prob. seems very minor to you, a speeding ticket...heck, we have all had em from time to time...prob. seems about as minor as guard who is in the martial arts looking the other way when fellow martial artist want to share a move or two!


----------



## Karazenpo

John stated: Prof. Chow trained in Kenpo, judo, jujitsu, boxing, and kung fu. James Mitose was only 1 of his instructors.

John, this is what I have a hard time swallowing. Everyone on this forum is always crying about paper. What paper does Chow have that he studied judo, jujistu, boxing and kung fu. Hey, when I was 16 I sat in on some of Walter Matson's classes on Uechi ryu in Framingham, Ma., should I now declare myself as having studied Uechi ryu? Who was his boxing instructor? Was Chow a 'Golden Gloves? an amatuer maybe?  Was his instructor? What experience? Who was his jujitsu instructor who certified him?, did Okazaki ?  Who was his judo instructor?  Sonny Gascon received a first level certification from Tagami. Has it yet been proven his father really knew kung fu even though his brothers never attested to that fact? What style kung fu? from what instructor? Here's my point, Mitose's claims aren't any more elusive than others but because of his criminal background some seem to discount everything. Do I blame you guys, no, I don't, because it's like the little boy who cried wolf one too many times, now no one believes him but that's still no way to conduct an investigation. We have to stay open minded. With respect, "Joe"


----------



## Karazenpo

Ray said:
			
		

> I didn't say I didn't believe it.  I didn't indicate which line I believe.
> 
> Somewhere in the past someone did.
> 
> Certainly, Mitose figures in the history and always will.  Just how he really fits in, I may never decide.  I've seen allusions that he was a WWII spy for the US, and so on...I've seen just as many sources says that he was a fraud.  I've seen statements supposedly from Chow and Parker discounting him.  And I've seen others idolize the man.



Yes Ray, someone some where in the past did but it wasn't Chow, Emperado or Parker, that's my point. You may have seen accounts of Parker discounting him but he also said many good things about him. I spoke of this with Doc. It was on a column that Ed Parker had in the 80's in Black Belt magazine, if I have to look it up I have the date and volume for I still have the mag. Parker had nothing to say but good things about Mitose, check it out. He seems like my Massachusetts senator who ran for president, John Kerry, " which way the winds blowing". The rest I totally agree with you. Respectfully, Joe


----------



## John Bishop

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> John stated: Prof. Chow trained in Kenpo, judo, jujitsu, boxing, and kung fu. James Mitose was only 1 of his instructors.
> 
> John, this is what I have a hard time swallowing. Everyone on this forum is always crying about paper. What paper does Chow have that he studied judo, jujistu, boxing and kung fu. Hey, when I was 16 I sat in on some of Walter Matson's classes on Uechi ryu in Framingham, Ma., should I now declare myself as having studied Uechi ryu? Who was his boxing instructor? Was Chow a 'Golden Gloves? an amatuer maybe? Was his instructor? What experience? Who was his jujitsu instructor who certified him?, did Okazaki ? Who was his judo instructor? Sonny Gascon received a first level certification from Tagami. Has it yet been proven his father really knew kung fu even though his brothers never attested to that fact? What style kung fu? from what instructor? Here's my point, Mitose's claims aren't any more elusive than others but because of his criminal background some seem to discount everything. Do I blame you guys, no, I don't, because it's like the little boy who cried wolf one too many times, now no one believes him but that's still no way to conduct an investigation. We have to stay open minded. With respect, "Joe"


Well I can't say who all his instructors were. Especially his boxing instructor. His judo and jujitsu instructor was his brother John Chow-Hoon. 
He claims his father taught him kung fu. 
I was somewhat in doubt of that until I came into possession of a old 1960's video (converted from 8mm) last month. It was of tournaments in northern California that Aleju Reyes students particapated in. 
In this video is Prof. Chow doing a demonstration at a tournament. Contrary to everything I've heard in the past, there is Prof. Chow, doing a dynamic tension Hung Gar form. So it's obvious Prof. Chow did do some kata. And apparently he did at least know some Hung Gar.
As soon as I can get permission from the owner of this video, I will put it on my website with the other Prof. Chow clip. 
I think there are other films of this demonstration, because Rob Peladeau told me his father "Wilfred" has a similar film. Wilfred Peladeau was Bill Chun Sr's first black belt, and he would drive Prof. Chow around whenever he visited Chun in No. California.


----------



## Karazenpo

Thank you, John, a very fair and open minded response. We're going to need that if we're going to get anywhere on this topic.


----------



## kelly keltner

Danjo said:
			
		

> That would make them deceitful liars who perpetuated fraud to their students.


 yep cause we all know martial artists are all choir boys.

kell


----------



## kelly keltner

Ray said:
			
		

> Then we could save a lot of trouble and money by going to someone who teaches wrong but thinks they teach right?


 very good, now yer gettin it.

kelly


----------



## kelly keltner

John Bishop said:
			
		

> Moderator's Suggestion:
> 
> We have been having a excellent discussion on the topic of James Mitose's first book.
> Let's please try to stay on this topic.
> Please refrain from making snide remarks toward each other.
> Discussions of religion (other then those mentioned in the book), or somebody's actual height (unless it's in reference to illustrations in the book), have nothing to do with this topic.
> 
> Nobody has to agreed with everyone, so if you have something to contribute to the discussion, or a well thought out question, please post it.
> A short insult here and there contribute's absolutely nothing to the discussion.


 Mark your calander a second time John something else we agree on.
kelly


----------



## Seig

ADMIN NOTE:

Enough with the smartass one liners.
Keep it on topic.

Seig
OPS Admin


----------



## The Kai

_Wasn't it said somewhere that the old masters taught wrong on purpose?_

_kell_

This would'nt make any sense, in okinwan they were literally teaching thier arts to survive. You teach wrong=your students don't survive=Style does'nt exist any more. After that, well you you send your students on to the streets or into a competetion with all the wrong moves

There is also the assumption that you are being taught the true way, while the "others" are not!
Here's a Logic equation
All Men die
Bob is a Man
------------
Bob will die

Applied thusly
The Old Teachers taught wrong
My teacher is of the old way
--------------------
I am being taught wrong


----------



## Ray

No one is arguing about who taught Angelo Dundee, Freddie Roach, Holyfield, Jack Johnson, how to fight - or how to train fighters.  What is this fixation we martial artists have with wanting some mantle of authority on our shoulders, or on the shoulders of those who taught (teach) us?

Other than for setting the historical record straight, I don't see a lot of use for this conversation.  Although, I enjoy martial arts history, what good is it?


----------



## Karazenpo

Ray said:
			
		

> No one is arguing about who taught Angelo Dundee, Freddie Roach, Holyfield, Jack Johnson, how to fight - or how to train fighters.  What is this fixation we martial artists have with wanting some mantle of authority on our shoulders, or on the shoulders of those who taught (teach) us?
> 
> Other than for setting the historical record straight, I don't see a lot of use for this conversation.  Although, I enjoy martial arts history, what good is it?



Well Ray, one of my Karazenpo instructors here in New England Gm. S. George Pesare has a saying that goes something like: "How do we know where we're going to if we don't know where we came from?" There is a Taoist saying also that goes like this: 'Dwell on the past, you rob the present, ignore the past, you rob the future'. Thirdly, speaking for myself, I was a history major in college. I find history fascinating. Hey, to each his own. So those are my reasons. No, we shouldn't obsess about it but a healthy debate and an honest attempt to solve a mystery or two is a good distraction in today's stressful society. That's how I see it anyway. Respectfully, Joe


----------



## GAB

Mekosho said:
			
		

> Am just curious...am sure someone can explain this to me though...but I OFTEN here that B. Juchnik could never have been taught actual techniques while visiting Mitose in prison as that was not allowed...all he could do was LISTEN as Mitose described the techniques...If that is the case, I have to agree, yes, it makes one wonder just how much could have really been taught...BUT...from what I understand, Hanshi met Mitose thru a friend who worked at the prison as a guard...Guru Santana!!! Now lets see...is it totally inconcievable that one could look the "other way" as various ummm, physical activities took place? I mean after all, some very high power crime bosses thru out history still ran their various families from prison...drugs are a big problem in the prison system as well, I am fairly sure thay are against the rules as well...so, to use that one rule as a basis to declare physical actions where NEVER taught is just plain ridiculous...are we really that niave?


Hi Mekosho,

I talked about this last night with Hanshi...

He said "we had greetings, touching, hugging showing respect, we would be in an area about 800 square feet, there were benchs and we sat and conversed and he would be able to show you what he ment by physcial movements"

When He was showing a particular move to David Kovar, who was about 20 at the time. It was at about half speed, when he avoided Dave's punch his next move was to the groin. Dave was hurt and he got the message. Dave Kovar is a person who received the information also...

Regard, Gary


----------



## GAB

Mekosho said:
			
		

> LOL! You are absolutly right Mr. Bishop...Guru Santana...or was it just george the struggling guard back then? Is far to honorable a person to have ever bent the rules...see what I am saying..times change, people change...
> Again, I just feel it is totally naive to stand on the "it was against the rules" line 100%...
> I am sure you yourself are a very honorable person as well Mr. Bishop...but is it likely that you NEVER break a rule? Highly doubtful! Ever get a speeding ticket?
> I mean, that prob. seems very minor to you, a speeding ticket...heck, we have all had em from time to time...prob. seems about as minor as guard who is in the martial arts looking the other way when fellow martial artist want to share a move or two!


Hi MeKosho,

Again I asked Hanshi about that...Against the rules IDEA!

He said, who ever is saying that was not there, and they don't know what they are talking about. 
That is just not true. Who started that line of erroneous information? 

He also said anyone taking about George being dishonest, well remember he is still a working person with corrections, so they had better be careful because that is not the truth, they were not there when we had these get togethers and neither was George.

Regards, Gary


----------



## Doc

"to be revealed" - "previously unknown" - "new documentation" - "finally the truth" - "new information" - "you must come" - "finally all will see" - "forthcoming" "but wait, there's more"

(depicted results not typical, batteries not included, some assembly necessary, may cause heart attack, high blood pressure, or stroke, delivery takes 6 to 8 weeks, plus tax shipping and handling, second one must be of equal or lesser value, when used with a sensible diet, not responsible for misuse, limited warranty, return only with receipt, no cash refunds, store credit only)

Now where have I heard these things before? Anyone recall some of this language on MartialTalk previously. What were we talking about on previous threads.

My point is a simple one. These things seem to be literally driven by, (particularly in this case) people outside of kenpo attempting to "sale credibility." Ocassionally they sale a meeting or gathering as well using the "new information" as bait. Somehow nothing "new" ever comes out of these things. Perhaps a separate forum for "Tracy Kenpo?" or a "Mitose" "Bruce" section or something so people can argue the merits among themselves instead of trying to convince others who don't care. If these guys who are doing their own thing are so good, they would not have to work so hard to convince us. What is not in dispute is Chow, Emperado, and Parker are/were physically awesome.

I find it funny that the "fame" of some is traced "backwards" from Chow, Emperado and Parker instead of forward from the "famous" to their students.

No matter what we talk about, some still steer back to the same old unresolveable garbage.


----------



## BlackCatBonz

here is another simple point......if one is so uninterested in a particular topic, why keep making posts about it?


----------



## kelly keltner

The Kai said:
			
		

> _Wasn't it said somewhere that the old masters taught wrong on purpose?_
> 
> _kell_
> 
> This would'nt make any sense, in okinwan they were literally teaching thier arts to survive. You teach wrong=your students don't survive=Style does'nt exist any more. After that, well you you send your students on to the streets or into a competetion with all the wrong moves
> 
> There is also the assumption that you are being taught the true way, while the "others" are not!
> Here's a Logic equation
> All Men die
> Bob is a Man
> ------------
> Bob will die
> 
> Applied thusly
> The Old Teachers taught wrong
> My teacher is of the old way
> --------------------
> I am being taught wrong


OK Todd Ole boy. Let's say You're an Okinawan/Japanese instructor in post WW2 Okinawa. OK and Okinawa/Japan is occupied by who? 
THE AMERICANS
Ok so your land is full of foreigners with guns. They're gettin drunk, chasin the native girls, and getting into fights.
American servicemen then come to you and want to learn Martial arts.
You say "sure" take their two dollars teach'em something backwards and kick'em in the groin for looking at your daughter wrong.

kelly

P.s. the assumtion was never on my part. I just asked the question"didn't someone say it" you're the one making assumptions not me. My thought proccess was to come up with various scenarios under which that statement might hold up. I came up with one and typed it. The fact that I typed it does not make it true or assumed it's just an extension of my thought process in a scenario driven enviroment.


----------



## Doc

kelly keltner said:
			
		

> OK Todd Ole boy. Let's say You're an Okinawan/Japanese instructor in post WW2 Okinawa. OK and Okinawa/Japan is occupied by who?
> THE AMERICANS
> Ok so your land is full of foregners with guns. They're gettin drunk, chasin the native girls, and getting into fights.
> American servicemen then come to you and want to learn Martial arts.
> You say "sure" take their two dollars teach'em something backwards and kick'em in the groin for looking at your daughter wrong.
> 
> kelly



How true. What you teach your "real" students versus the American servicemen, (who were there short term anyway) would be different. How long are you going to be here sir? One year? Yes you can make black belt in that time. Money please. Joe Lewis, black belt - 6 months, Chuck Norris, black belt - 7 months as examples. 

Much of that material came to the west in its abbreviated form and black belts were given here as well for less than a years effort. So what else is new?


----------



## kelly keltner

Doc said:
			
		

> How true. What you teach your "real" students versus the American servicemen, (who were there short term anyway) would be different. How long are you going to be here sir? One year? Yes you can make black belt in that time. Money please. Joe Lewis, black belt - 6 months, Chuck Norris, black belt - 7 months as examples.
> 
> Much of that material came to the west in its abbreviated form and black belts were given here as well for less than a years effort. So what else is new?


 Nothin's new, just making a point. Thanks for agreeing, mark it on your calander. It doesn't happen between us to often.

kelly


----------



## Doc

kelly keltner said:
			
		

> Nothin's new, just making a point. Thanks for agreeing, mark it on your calander. It doesn't happen between us to often.
> 
> kelly


Absent a specific hotbed topic, more than you think.


----------



## The Kai

Doc said:
			
		

> How true. What you teach your "real" students versus the American servicemen, (who were there short term anyway) would be different. How long are you going to be here sir? One year? Yes you can make black belt in that time. Money please. Joe Lewis, black belt - 6 months, Chuck Norris, black belt - 7 months as examples.
> 
> Much of that material came to the west in its abbreviated form and black belts were given here as well for less than a years effort. So what else is new?


They were taught and promoted rather quickly and probably very simply. But wrong? Well, lets look at the fighting history of Joe Lewis and Chuck Norris. Lewis did'nt have a lot of tools in his toolbox, but he could hit with what he knew. Norris went on and rounded out his training (again with other artists that were taught wrong) and went on to have a strong fighting history. Now if you assume of course that they were taught not so much in an abbreviated manner, but wrong. If we have advanced our learning how is applied - theorically at best.

Again here's the falling down of logic.  The old masters taught wrong, on purpose".  If they taught wrong who would call them a master??  The students that are getting thier butts kicked.  Other systems that are using the Old Masters school like a dishrag.  So the old master has a bunch of students that can't hit, block, throw or kick-but we still think he is a master!!


----------



## Kosho-Monk

Let me throw out this as a thought. Let's change the wording of "taught wrong on purpose" to "taught a certain way on purpose". And let's suppose this difference was in how much meaning they gave to their students. And what I mean by that is... 

let's say I teach a student a certain move. But instead of simply giving him all the knowledge that I have about this move, I make him figure out much of it on his own. This would mean that a serious student would go off and work with what I taught him and the not-so-serious student would simply accept my basic explanation of what I taught as the whole truth. 

So in fact, I did teach "wrong" on purpose. 

I, as the teacher, would see that one student was working hard and continue to point them in the right direction. The other student (if I didn't kick them out of my school) I would continue on the same path he chose; the path of ignorance. And in the end he'd probably quit thinking I wasn't very good - when in fact it was his lack of desire that failed him.

Just a thought. I do this with my own students. The difference is I am very open about what I am doing. I tell them that there is more to what I teach and it's their duty as a good student to figure it out.


-John


----------



## Karazenpo

Did they really teach wrong or was it a communications problem? The language barrier? I heard that too.


----------



## Kosho-Monk

> Did they really teach wrong or was it a communications problem? The language barrier? I heard that too.


Good point. Remember in "The Last Samuri" the Japanese guy kept telling Tom Cruise, "too many minds". It took a while for him to figure out what that really meant.








-John


----------



## The Kai

communication problems can happen even in the same language. 
Again until a short time ago Martial Art were taught in a small group, would'nt you notice that you were the only one doing like a thousand push ups while everyone else was learning to fight?  Who were the first waves to be taught, Military MPS, and Military guys in general.  And guess what they used the stuff!  and it worked.   In the oldpictures of service men sparring in Bogu Gear with thier okinwan counter parts they seemed to hold thier own.  Or maybe every Okinwan stylist ever, even those relocated to the states held back so the Americans would'nt wise up!!


----------



## gmkuoha

. Coincidence you may say, maybe, some may even say there's a connection to all general self defense techniques in all martial arts but since Mitose was Chow's instructor and Chow was Emperado's/Parker's and Parker's was Tracy's then why is it not so hard to believe it's simply the evolution of what Mitose taught. Seems a logical conclusion whether someone likes the man or not. I don't believe Parker, Emperado, Chow just made up their stuff from scratch, I don't buy it no matter how talented they are simply because there common denominator was James Mitose as much as some wish to distance themselves from that it is nevertheless a fact! With respect, Prof. Joe[/QUOTE] 
 * Mr. Shuras, I believe there would be a similarity between even the farthest off-shoot from what Mitosi or Chow taught. Even when sitting many people around the room and whispering a statement to the first, the end will be different yet still have a word or two from the beginning statement. It should be known that Professor Chow received his training from his father, Chow Hoon, who was a proficiant kung fu stylists from China. Tough many belive that he was nothing more then a street fighter, I beg to differ as I have seen several photos of him in the real old days in some sort of kung fu outfit and doing some forms. Professor Chow said his father was a Buddhists Priest from the Shanghai, China Temples and I have no way to prove otherwise, but since he never lied to me on anything else I have to believe him on this.

 I spoke to Sijo Emparado some time a go and asked him about both men as he was there training during the era of Mitosi and Chow and he told me that Chow learned as much from Mitosi as Mitosi learned from Chow. He said that when Chow trained with Mitosi he was already very proficient in the martial arts, but wanted some place to go and train to hone in his techniques and at that time Mitosi was the well knowned martial artists as he knew many government officials and various people. 

 Thanks for allowing me to share my opinion,
 Grandmaster Kuoha


----------



## Kosho-Monk

> communication problems can happen even in the same language.
> Again until a short time ago Martial Art were taught in a small group, would'nt you notice that you were the only one doing like a thousand push ups while everyone else was learning to fight? Who were the first waves to be taught, Military MPS, and Military guys in general. And guess what they used the stuff! and it worked. In the oldpictures of service men sparring in Bogu Gear with thier okinwan counter parts they seemed to hold thier own. Or maybe every Okinwan stylist ever, even those relocated to the states held back so the Americans would'nt wise up!!


 
Hi Todd,

I've mainly taught at small schools, and even my own school now is very small in numbers.  I can tell you that I've had students who kept coming to class and didn't learn much.  Not because I wasn't teaching, but because they couldn't let any other ideas into their minds.

Some of these guys got up to as high a low level black belt in the schools I taught at - as they could hold their own in a fight.  But since they were only relying on their physical strength and not the strength of their minds, they all eventually dropped out.  Most of them never accepting that it was their own ego that let them down.

Martial artists who muscle their way through techniques will eventually no longer be able to do their art - unless they change.  And change, of course, requires letting go of the old and accepting something new.

There are also more aspects to martial arts than just the physical violence that most practitioners focus on.  Learning to avoid conflict is a lesson missed by many.  This is due to ego.

I believe that if one only studies how to deal with conflict using more conflict, then more conflict will enter their life.  But if you can learn to deal with conflict using peace, then, I believe, more peace will enter your life.

To me, this is true self-defense; the art of avoiding conflict if you can and dealing with it using peaceful means if you cannot. 

[side note: yes, sometimes people must use physical violence to protect themselves.  we need to train for that too.  but, I believe, that we should allow room for other types of training as well.]


-John


----------



## The Kai

Hey that's a great philosophy, I mean it!.  I thought you wanted more to talk about the application of the art.

if you teach in a concise clear manner, it would allow a student to build on his basics quicker, laying a nice foundation.  Since it seems to be agreed upon that practice of the basics is what allow the student to master, and individualize the material (according to Mitose).  Now if this is teaching wrong -the alternative grope around for the right answers to questions you don't know to ask yet!

So you did'nt think an individual could learn so you promoted them to 1st or 2nd degree?


----------



## Karazenpo

gmkuoha said:
			
		

> . Coincidence you may say, maybe, some may even say there's a connection to all general self defense techniques in all martial arts but since Mitose was Chow's instructor and Chow was Emperado's/Parker's and Parker's was Tracy's then why is it not so hard to believe it's simply the evolution of what Mitose taught. Seems a logical conclusion whether someone likes the man or not. I don't believe Parker, Emperado, Chow just made up their stuff from scratch, I don't buy it no matter how talented they are simply because there common denominator was James Mitose as much as some wish to distance themselves from that it is nevertheless a fact! With respect, Prof. Joe


 * Mr. Shuras, I believe there would be a similarity between even the farthest off-shoot from what Mitosi or Chow taught. Even when sitting many people around the room and whispering a statement to the first, the end will be different yet still have a word or two from the beginning statement. It should be known that Professor Chow received his training from his father, Chow Hoon, who was a proficiant kung fu stylists from China. Tough many belive that he was nothing more then a street fighter, I beg to differ as I have seen several photos of him in the real old days in some sort of kung fu outfit and doing some forms. Professor Chow said his father was a Buddhists Priest from the Shanghai, China Temples and I have no way to prove otherwise, but since he never lied to me on anything else I have to believe him on this.

 I spoke to Sijo Emparado some time a go and asked him about both men as he was there training during the era of Mitosi and Chow and he told me that Chow learned as much from Mitosi as Mitosi learned from Chow. He said that when Chow trained with Mitosi he was already very proficient in the martial arts, but wanted some place to go and train to hone in his techniques and at that time Mitosi was the well knowned martial artists as he knew many government officials and various people. 

 Thanks for allowing me to share my opinion,
 Grandmaster Kuoha[/QUOTE]

Thank you very much, Grandmaster Kuoha, I truly appreciate you taking the time to contribute to the discussion. It's great to have your input here. Will more be released on Professor Chow's father? Like the pictures mentioned, his training? The Tracy's website disputes the Buddhist priest issue because he was married. Do you know if Hoon Chow was really arrested for a barroom fight as is claimed in the Tracy site? I 'respectfully' ask these questions for some type of resolution because this is what is given to us as the other side of the argument when we discuss these issues. Thank you. "Joe"


----------



## Kosho-Monk

> Hey that's a great philosophy, I mean it!. I thought you wanted more to talk about the application of the art.
> 
> if you teach in a concise clear manner, it would allow a student to build on his basics quicker, laying a nice foundation. Since it seems to be agreed upon that practice of the basics is what allow the student to master, and individualize the material (according to Mitose). Now if this is teaching wrong -the alternative grope around for the right answers to questions you don't know to ask yet!
> 
> So you did'nt think an individual could learn so you promoted them to 1st or 2nd degree?


Sorry. I guess I got a bit off topic. (I understand that Mitose taught true self-defense - the art of defending one's self without body contact.)

I agree that one should be clear in their teaching methods. I am very clear about making my students work for the answers they seek. I have never liked to simply give them the answer without seeing them sweat first! 

As to your question about promoting people I didn't think could learn, no, I would never do that. These are things that happened at schools I taught at. Not at the school I own. But more to the point I was trying to make is that these things happen. Teachers sometimes promote their students even when they don't feel it to be totally right. Perhaps hoping that they will catch up for the next test.

I agree that the basics are very important to learn. How to hold your fist, form the foot, etc. Extremely important. But Mitose, as I understand it, put more importance on knowing when to do something, than what to do.

Again, we don't want to assume this means that we would now ignore the basics, but rather understand that knowing how to punch someone in the face, for instance, is good, but useless if you don't know when to do it. 

Just like blocking. If I know how to block a punch but do it at the wrong time, I get hit.

I guess I feel like there has to be a balance between what you "freely" give away to your student and what you make them "work for". Personally, as long as my students are showing that they are working hard to understand something, I make sure they are always pointed in the right direction. But I also remember that we can learn a lot from our mistakes.

Good conversation. Thanks.


-John


----------



## The Kai

Actually in the book, there is plenty of body contact!!Basics go way beyond how to make a fist!!
Knowing the when is asuming you wait for the opponet to move first.  There Go Sen No Sen and Sen no sen.  Blocking and defense is definatly the hardest aspect of the art to master, but that being said it is a mistake to always wait on your oppoenent


----------



## Kosho-Monk

Hi Todd,

I believe this was the first book of what was supposed to me many more. And yes, I agree that basics go beyond how to simply make a fist.

Knowing when to strike first is important too and still falls under the category of when to move. Personally, I think meditation is the hardest part of the art to master! But I know that not all practitioners do that.

I would say it is always a mistake to always do something a certain way.  I also have to say that what is presented in Mitose's book is not the Kosho I learn today.  Hanshi presents Kosho in a much different manner, as I am sure you would agree with, yes/no?

-John


----------



## The Kai

Of course the Kosho presented today is far different from what is detailed in the book!  Of course the book outlined a method called kenpo Jujitsu, not kosho.

  If there was more than one book planned is really conjecture there is nothing in the book to indicate it is the first of many volumes, nor is there mention of further techniques

Why do you do things a certain way?, efficency. When I walk out of house I could walk around the yard, then enter the garage-or I could walk straight to the garage.  If there are no obsticles, or rewards for me to change my path why would I wander about?


----------



## gmkuoha

[[/QUOTE] 
 Thank you very much, Grandmaster Kuoha, I truly appreciate you taking the time to contribute to the discussion. It's great to have your input here. Will more be released on Professor Chow's father? Like the pictures mentioned, his training? The Tracy's website disputes the Buddhist priest issue because he was married. Do you know if Hoon Chow was really arrested for a barroom fight as is claimed in the Tracy site? I 'respectfully' ask these questions for some type of resolution because this is what is given to us as the other side of the argument when we discuss these issues. Thank you. "Joe"[/QUOTE] * No I will not have any photos printed as many of these copies have appeared on other websites and other informative printed materials claiming to be theirs, so I am only keeping them for our use and the use of our students. It is great to see others reject and contend that this is true or this is not true when they were never around, but if you view our history from the time it all started in the public eye after the death of Professor Chow in 1987, till now, the stories have never changed unlike others who followed one person at one time, then another at a different time. I guess it all depends on who's got the popularity at that time. Chow Hoon (Professor Chow) was indeed a martial artists as I have seen photos of him and even printed one of them in our book, but as a Buddhists priest, it has been told to me by Professor Chow and also others only. If people would read our history, "it states that Chow Hoon was a Buddhists Priest...WAS is the word here as yes he did come to Hawaii and got married and I was told when he did that he left the monastery. Yes, I believe that he was arrested for a fight and despite a barroom brawl...that was highly unlikely as there are no records of this. I was told by Professor that it was actually with 2 men that he got into a fight and because both were pretty beaten up, he was arrested, but nothing happened. You have to remember, and if you didn't live in Hawaii at the time we were a territory you wouldn't know, but if you got into a fight, everyone was arrested till things were sorted out and since he never got any time out of that, I presume that he was arrested because he was just a party in the altercation...but I am not sure as all records are gone. I thought that records would have been in a micro fish format now, but they did not have anything like that in those days, so they kept records for so many years then had them destroyed. My family are all in law enforcement officers there in Hawaii and no one found any records about him at all.
 Grandmaster Kuoha


----------



## Karazenpo

Thank you Sir for clarifying that. We too, as police officers do the same thing in Massachusetts to this day. If there is a brawl in progress when we arrive, everybody goes, everyone is arrested, we then take statements, write a report and let the judge sort out the rest! I appreciate you clarifying what has been reported on other websites for that has been a 'sticking point' in some of our discussions here. Now, we have the other side of the story. 
Sincerely, Prof. Joe


----------



## Danjo

gmkuoha said:
			
		

> No I will not have any photos printed as many of these copies have appeared on other websites and other informative printed materials claiming to be theirs, so I am only keeping them for our use and the use of our students. Grandmaster Kuoha


Have you considered copy protecting them like they do on the Hawaii Karate Seinenkai webpage? There are ways to prevent others from even cutting and pasting them now. It would be great to be able to see these someday.


----------



## Danjo

I really do hope that you publish a book on Professor Chow though. Regardless


----------



## GAB

Doc said:
			
		

> "to be revealed" - "previously unknown" - "new documentation" - "finally the truth" - "new information" - "you must come" - "finally all will see" - "forthcoming" "but wait, there's more"
> 
> (depicted results not typical, batteries not included, some assembly necessary, may cause heart attack, high blood pressure, or stroke, delivery takes 6 to 8 weeks, plus tax shipping and handling, second one must be of equal or lesser value, when used with a sensible diet, not responsible for misuse, limited warranty, return only with receipt, no cash refunds, store credit only)
> 
> Now where have I heard these things before? Anyone recall some of this language on MartialTalk previously. What were we talking about on previous threads.
> 
> My point is a simple one. These things seem to be literally driven by, (particularly in this case) people outside of kenpo attempting to "sale credibility." Ocassionally they sale a meeting or gathering as well using the "new information" as bait. Somehow nothing "new" ever comes out of these things. Perhaps a separate forum for "Tracy Kenpo?" or a "Mitose" "Bruce" section or something so people can argue the merits among themselves instead of trying to convince others who don't care. If these guys who are doing their own thing are so good, they would not have to work so hard to convince us. What is not in dispute is Chow, Emperado, and Parker are/were physically awesome.
> 
> I find it funny that the "fame" of some is traced "backwards" from Chow, Emperado and Parker instead of forward from the "famous" to their students.
> 
> No matter what we talk about, some still steer back to the same old unresolveable garbage.


Hi DOC, 

With all due respect Doc you should have run a check on me...
I am not trying to convince you of anything I am looking for answers, and what I see on most of these threads are a lot of theory and no truth...

So I started to get involved, Now 7 months later after a lot of mud slinging and arguing I am talking more specific with Hanshi Bruce Juchnik and trying to get some  stuff cleared up... 

He has put on a gathering for the last 17 Years Doc, International type OK...He will put on another this year at Reno..Edward Bobby Lowe and Paul Yamaguchi (spl) will be there... They were there IN Hawaii, then and hopefully if all goes well they will be there in Reno. 

I was telling him about the Attack on Thomas Young...He said Paul Yamaguchi would tell you different he Knew Thomas Young very well...

So whether you like it or not, matters not to me either... So much stuff is just not true and told again and again...Just like the...they never learned by touching or only conversation was happening...WRONG...According to Hanshi...

You like to trash talk, I am trying to find answer's you want to attack someones mental level or degrade them, fine, you just never ran up against someone like me Doc...Your tricks are not so tricky OK...

I have been trying to tell you, but you don't want to listen you want to trash talk me...To Bad...

Since I have been on this board you were 10th Dan of your organization then you go for Professor now you are whatever...

Hanshi has been Hanshi since he was given the keys to Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo...He has about 10 or more Master titles in various arts so a big deal??? Not to him he said to me, Gary, I am just a student...Well, me also Doc...

So are going to go to Reno to talk to the people who were there??? Or just talk trash???

Regards, Gary


----------



## MJS

Lets try to refrain from making personal attacks on each other and stay focused on the topic!!!

Mike


----------



## GAB

Kosho-Monk said:
			
		

> Let me throw out this as a thought. Let's change the wording of "taught wrong on purpose" to "taught a certain way on purpose". And let's suppose this difference was in how much meaning they gave to their students. And what I mean by that is...
> 
> let's say I teach a student a certain move. But instead of simply giving him all the knowledge that I have about this move, I make him figure out much of it on his own. This would mean that a serious student would go off and work with what I taught him and the not-so-serious student would simply accept my basic explanation of what I taught as the whole truth.
> 
> So in fact, I did teach "wrong" on purpose.
> 
> I, as the teacher, would see that one student was working hard and continue to point them in the right direction. The other student (if I didn't kick them out of my school) I would continue on the same path he chose; the path of ignorance. And in the end he'd probably quit thinking I wasn't very good - when in fact it was his lack of desire that failed him.
> 
> Just a thought. I do this with my own students. The difference is I am very open about what I am doing. I tell them that there is more to what I teach and it's their duty as a good student to figure it out.
> 
> 
> -John


Hi John,

I am glad you brought this up, because in FMA we play "defang the snake"..

You go for the hand that holds the stick...The stick is to represent the "Bolo or a Kris"... We are taught at the beginners level to go for the hand and in the drills we do... we strike as close to the hand with out hitting, some may even want to start with the soft stick...Guro Carlito likes rattan. LOL ouch 

The instructor "if he is good" tells you this is what you are learning at this time, after you are able to do these drills, we will show you at a higher level...

Now the higher levels or much more dangerous, especially if you are moving very quickly, they say OK this is the purpose for this strike...Instead of the  #2 going for the hand it now goes to the face and neck same move only much more lethel.

When you start you don't have control of that stick or weapon, as you get better and more efficient now you are given more keys...

Take an apprentice who goes onto the Job as a Carpenter..A little different application here, but he is not given the skill saw and told to go cut those rafter tails. He is told to hold that for me or go get some more studs and lay them out on the marks that are on the plates and then make sure you don't have to go back to often, carry as many as you can...

Anyway that is how I relate it...

One last thought, in books relating to the Samurai sword they show dead bodies (drawings) how to cut them up, it shows the beginners the skill they have...We don't do that we use targets or bags or bricks or wood or soft rice bundles...

In EPAK it is empty hands, In "Kali or Escrima or Arnis" it is the stick or the hand...When you get better you use real knives and swords..Scary Huh????

Regards, Gary


----------



## gmkuoha

Danjo said:
			
		

> I really do hope that you publish a book on Professor Chow though. Regardless


 * Thanks for the interests and yes, I believe that I will do just that. I have so many projects that I don't know which ones to tackle first. Trying to copyright gets very expensive as many of our systems names, titles of techniques and katas among other things were copyrighted and my attorney said there are so many loopholes in copyright laws that it is almost imposible to keep things like that sacred. In one case a person was sued for using a portion of a film into his own film but it was thrown out of court because a mention of the original film was done in the new film even if no permission was granted. I still don't know how that went the other way, but it's case law now and to me it's not correct. Good example are about famous paintings done by famous artists and these same painting are done today by not so famous artists for pennies on that dollar and nothing can be done.
 Grandmaster Kuoha


----------



## Danjo

gmkuoha said:
			
		

> * Thanks for the interests and yes, I believe that I will do just that. I have so many projects that I don't know which ones to tackle first. Trying to copyright gets very expensive as many of our systems names, titles of techniques and katas among other things were copyrighted and my attorney said there are so many loopholes in copyright laws that it is almost imposible to keep things like that sacred. In one case a person was sued for using a portion of a film into his own film but it was thrown out of court because a mention of the original film was done in the new film even if no permission was granted. I still don't know how that went the other way, but it's case law now and to me it's not correct. Good example are about famous paintings done by famous artists and these same painting are done today by not so famous artists for pennies on that dollar and nothing can be done.
> Grandmaster Kuoha


Yes copywrite can be tricky. However, what I was referring to was a type of website technology that prevents people from copying or cutting and pasting your images. There are a few different ways of doing this. One is to have a translucent sign across your photos that say the name of your website on them. That way, no matter who copies them, they can't use them without everyone knowing exactly where they came from. Nick Cerio's site does this.( http://www.nickcerioskenpo.com/prof_cerio/gallerypages/gallery.htm ) Another way is like they do on the website I mentioned above. ( http://seinenkai.com ) There you are not even able to copy them at all, not even for your own personal collection. Either way, I'm certain that there are several computer tech guys here that could assist you in finding the best type of technology. This way, you can both share the material and know that it is protected at the same times. There would be no relying on copywrite laws etc.


----------



## GAB

Danjo said:
			
		

> Yes copywrite can be tricky. However, what I was referring to was a type of website technology that prevents people from copying or cutting and pasting your images. There are a few different ways of doing this. One is to have a translucent sign across your photos that say the name of your website on them. That way, no matter who copies them, they can't use them without everyone knowing exactly where they came from. Nick Cerio's site does this.( http://www.nickcerioskenpo.com/prof_cerio/gallerypages/gallery.htm ) Another way is like they do on the website I mentioned above. ( http://seinenkai.com ) There you are not even able to copy them at all, not even for your own personal collection. Either way, I'm certain that there are several computer tech guys here that could assist you in finding the best type of technology. This way, you can both share the material and know that it is protected at the same times. There would be no relying on copywrite laws etc.


Danjo,

That is good information, one of the reasons I am loyal to Hanshi is all the information and paperwork he has that has convinced me he is for real. 

Others are unaware of what went on and just picking things apart because they don't have the information I do...Believe me when I say I am not at liberty to give out some stuff...I think he is testing my patience or his one or the other...

I will forward this information to Hanshi Bruce...

Regards, Gary

PS: Karazenpo can go to Kenpotalk.com and still play if he wants to...


----------



## Danjo

GAB said:
			
		

> Believe me when I say I am not at liberty to give out some stuff


Yes, that is a problem. We hear a lot of claims from people without any proof to back it up. If the proof exists, then for goodness sake get it out there so people can look at it and realize the truth of the situation. If the proof is not going to be divulged, then keep quite about the claims. Few things are more anoying than someone saying, "This is the truth. I have proof. But I will not show you the proof." Again, if you're not going to show someone the proof, then don't make the claim until you're willing to. It isn't just Juchnik either, he's just the one that has been making the claims related to this discussion about Mitose and what he actually taught.

Peace.


----------



## GAB

Danjo said:
			
		

> Yes, that is a problem. We hear a lot of claims from people without any proof to back it up. If the proof exists, then for goodness sake get it out there so people can look at it and realize the truth of the situation. If the proof is not going to be divulged, then keep quite about the claims. Few things are more anoying than someone saying, "This is the truth. I have proof. But I will not show you the proof." Again, if you're not going to show someone the proof, then don't make the claim until you're willing to. It isn't just Juchnik either, he's just the one that has been making the claims related to this discussion about Mitose and what he actually taught.
> 
> Peace.


Well Danjo,

I have been trying to give out some information, they attack the guard (he's dirty) they attack me, not the topic...They attack because they are insecure in there own world and don't want answers, when I do give them it is another attack...

I have given answers like I say to be changed quoted out of context and so forth...Kenpo talk will be a better forum I am sure for these debates...

Ted Sumner puts up documents they are attacked...

Tell you what, you got a question, lets hear it...Ok..

Regards, Gary


----------



## The Kai

Unless the proof is in the book "What is Selfdefennse"  it is off-topic.  You could start a thread "proof I have"

Again no one attcked the guard, what they were talking about was the possibilty of events happening....


----------



## GAB

The Kai said:
			
		

> Unless the proof is in the book "What is Selfdefennse" it is off-topic. You could start a thread "proof I have"
> 
> Again no one attcked the guard, what they were talking about was the possibilty of events happening....


 
Hi Kai, 

Yes you are correct on the topic thing, how I know about that. 

So lets talk the basic book that James Mitose wrote. 

For the time period it was a good book and no matter what you want to say in this time and age it is his first writing. If he published it himself it is even better...

Ed Parkers first book for comparison. Basic book same information only not as indepth.. 

Mitose's first book in museums and a collector Item selling for hundreds of dollars if you can even find it. 

Ed Parkers book, still selling for under $ 20.00 still it is not considered a museum piece, it was written in 1960...less then a decade after Mitose's book...It had no original information...

As for the attack on the guard I will let George Santana figure that one out I am going to forward the information to him....It is on the web for all to see...

Regrds, Gary


----------



## Michael Billings

Danjo said:
			
		

> If the proof is not going to be divulged, then keep quite about the claims. Few things are more anoying than someone saying, "This is the truth. I have proof. But I will not show you the proof."
> 
> Peace.


 This is one of my pet personal (drive me nuts) peeves.  The problem is we see it all the time and there is no empirical way of separating the wheat from the chaff.

 -Michael


----------



## GAB

Michael Billings said:
			
		

> This is one of my pet personal (drive me nuts) peeves. The problem is we see it all the time and there is no empirical way of separating the wheat from the chaff.
> 
> -Michael


Hi Michael,

I am working on it and if I can push, prod, and whatever I can do to get that information out I will do it...The whole thing is so convoluted, reminds me of the DNA Helix...

I have only begun to get this out. 

Just in the last week I have tried to get DR Ted Sumner and Hanshi together... 
With this Seminar coming out and Ray Arquilla releasing some of his information it will get better...Hopefully...

Yea kind of funny, Dr. Ted and I still e-mail almost daily...Go Figure...

Regards, Gary


----------



## The Kai

Actualy availabily has more to do with the resale price than anything else.  Why is the 1st issue of the comic book Super man selling for Millions$$.  Well it is'nt the art or the writing.  In WW2 most pulp fiction was cut up for AA shells.  Henceforth only a few survived, the remaining copies are rare and therefore valuable.  Since Mitose book was self or limited in its numbers published is probably the rarer of the two, that's where the value comes in!!


----------



## Danjo

GAB said:
			
		

> Hi Kai,
> 
> Yes you are correct on the topic thing, how I know about that.
> 
> So lets talk the basic book that James Mitose wrote.
> 
> For the time period it was a good book and no matter what you want to say in this time and age it is his first writing. If he published it himself it is even better...
> 
> Ed Parkers first book for comparison. Basic book same information only not as indepth..
> 
> Mitose's first book in museums and a collector Item selling for hundreds of dollars if you can even find it.
> 
> Ed Parkers book, still selling for under $ 20.00 still it is not considered a museum piece, it was written in 1960...less then a decade after Mitose's book...It had no original information...
> 
> As for the attack on the guard I will let George Santana figure that one out I am going to forward the information to him....It is on the web for all to see...
> 
> Regards, Gary


The book was good for the time. I mean it was the first one in English period. However, I think that Mitose looked a bit stiff in the photos, and I have to agree with the foot alignment issue. Parker's book, by contrast, looked really good in his photos. Dynamic and strong. I don't study EPAK, but I find the pictures very well done. The only reason that Mitose's is a museum piece is because it was the first one in English, not for the quality IMO.


----------



## The Kai

I don't think it was the first in english, allthough it was one of the first.  Any value goes back to the how many are there left issue.

Mitose alinemtnts are really off in the book.  Again as in the case of the Superman comic book -it's not the photo's or the writing!


----------



## gmkuoha

The Kai said:
			
		

> I don't think it was the first in english, allthough it was one of the first. Any value goes back to the how many are there left issue.
> 
> Mitose alinemtnts are really off in the book. Again as in the case of the Superman comic book -it's not the photo's or the writing!


 * I have one of the first Mitosi's books with Professor Chow in it. It was given to me by Professor Chow when I received my 5th dan from him sometime in the early 80's and it was signed by Professor Chow and made out to me. It is in pretty good condition so is it worth allot of money? I would never sell it as it is worth to me more then money but just wondering. Anyone know what the value is for something like this? This is from his first printing.
 Thanks,
 Grandmaster Kuoha


----------



## John Bishop

gmkuoha said:
			
		

> * I have one of the first Mitosi's books with Professor Chow in it. It was given to me by Professor Chow when I received my 5th dan from him sometime in the early 80's and it was signed by Professor Chow and made out to me. It is in pretty good condition so is it worth allot of money? I would never sell it as it is worth to me more then money but just wondering. Anyone know what the value is for something like this? This is from his first printing.
> Thanks,
> Grandmaster Kuoha


BookFinder.com has 3 right now.  They are 1981 editions.  2 of them are $295.00 each.  1 is $380.00, (excellent cond.)

Your signed 1953 edition (Prof. Chow) would probably go for somewhere in the $1000-$1500 range, maybe more.  I remember looking at it several years ago, and don't remember if it was from the first group that didn't have the Kosho crest on the cover.  
The first small group that had a drawing of two karateka fighting.

http://museum.hikari.us/books/index50.html

That issue is very rare.  It appears to have been printed in a very small batch, and was given away to several people to write reviews on.  Hence the letters reprinted in the later editions.

Even more rare is the duplicate set of the actual B&W photos you have that were used to illustrate that book.  Hopefully, you've made digital copies of all of Professors early photos and videos.


----------



## gmkuoha

That issue is very rare. It appears to have been printed in a very small batch, and was given away to several people to write reviews on. Hence the letters reprinted in the later editions.

 Even more rare is the duplicate set of the actual B&W photos you have that were used to illustrate that book. Hopefully, you've made digital copies of all of Professors early photos and videos.[/QUOTE] 
 * Wow John, you have a good memory. I guess you'd better have being in law enforcement so long. Yes, I still have all that and the tapes with me and Professor Chow talking on it. They have been put on DVD type format but I should be doing that for all the photos and stuff. I also have a ton of stuff that Patsy gave to me after Professor Chow's death. There was allot more that Steven got a hold off and threw it in the trash because he was mad at his Mom, so those were all gone but I have his photo albums and all his other stuff including the huge Kara-Ho scroll that he used for his classes from the early 60's and also the scroll with all the rules and regulations. I am trying to preserve these but have yet to find anyone or anything thta would preserve these as they are so old and the material is sort of like a canvas type. If you know of anything that I could spray on that would keep this for many years, let me know.
 This is waking me up to preserve all this as we were victims of the Cedar fire and it wiped out half of my property (workshops, shed, swimming pool and guest house). Being that close I had better do these things and put it in a safe deposit box, huh?
 Thanks,
 Grandmaster Kuoha


----------



## Matt

John Bishop said:
			
		

> BookFinder.com has 3 right now.  They are 1981 editions.  2 of them are $295.00 each.  1 is $380.00, (excellent cond.)
> 
> Your signed 1953 edition (Prof. Chow) would probably go for somewhere in the $1000-$1500 range, maybe more.  I remember looking at it several years ago, and don't remember if it was from the first group that didn't have the Kosho crest on the cover.
> The first small group that had a drawing of two karateka fighting.
> 
> http://museum.hikari.us/books/index50.html
> 
> That issue is very rare.  It appears to have been printed in a very small batch, and was given away to several people to write reviews on.  Hence the letters reprinted in the later editions.
> 
> Even more rare is the duplicate set of the actual B&W photos you have that were used to illustrate that book.  Hopefully, you've made digital copies of all of Professors early photos and videos.



If I recall correctly, someone coughed up about $4k for a copy of the one with the two men fighting on the cover last year. Many folks didn't even know it existed. Those scans at the Seinenkai are from Kimo's copy. It was a bit nerve wracking to flip through it. It was kind of like the time my friend let me take his souped up '68 chevelle for a spin. Sure I wanted to, but I didn't want anything to happen to it on my watch. 

Matt


----------



## GAB

Matt said:
			
		

> If I recall correctly, someone coughed up about $4k for a copy of the one with the two men fighting on the cover last year. Many folks didn't even know it existed. Those scans at the Seinenkai are from Kimo's copy. It was a bit nerve wracking to flip through it. It was kind of like the time my friend let me take his souped up '68 chevelle for a spin. Sure I wanted to, but I didn't want anything to happen to it on my watch.
> 
> Matt


Boy Matt,

I can sure relate to that...

My Brother and I have a bible at his house in a safe place, goes back to the period when our forefathers lived in old europe and came to the Americas...

In it is listed all our relatives back to the time when they departed and came her in the early 1700's (our Moms side)...
It has been well taken care of...When looking at the hand written entries in it sends chills up your spine...

Can you imagine Al Tracy cut his copy up (or one of twenty), put it on the web for all to see???

Talk about sharing, you got to love it,  even if he you don't always agree...I don't agree with a lot of what is written, but they have their rights and I have mine...

I will fight for their rights and mine it is in the Constitution of the US...

Just lets keep it on a civil level...

Once upon a time, I would fight at the drop of a hat. 
Now I don't wait till it hits the ground...Not much time left, might as well enjoy it while I still can...

I bet Sijo would like to stick his hand in my face, hell I don't blame...I respect him to no end, we just disagree on a few things...

Regards, Gary


----------



## The Kai

Did you ever get the feeling we followed a rabbit down a hole and have been invited to a very strange tea party?


----------



## Doc

The Kai said:
			
		

> Did you ever get the feeling we followed a rabbit down a hole and have been invited to a very strange tea party?



Ya Think? The guy with the hat is running the party.


----------



## Danjo

Doc said:
			
		

> Ya Think? The guy with the hat is running the party.



The.....party......whole thing.....make..sense
talk about......I can't....Sijo.....Doc.....Ha...........

Rabbits.........Kai...........just a secret..............those....in ........the know.............Never..............
Hard...........life..............always..........my fac e..........nice to see.......training..........yeah.


Just thought I'd try it. Gave myself a headache---Dan


----------



## GAB

Danjo said:
			
		

> The.....party......whole thing.....make..sense
> talk about......I can't....Sijo.....Doc.....Ha...........
> 
> Rabbits.........Kai...........just a secret..............those....in ........the know.............Never..............
> Hard...........life..............always..........my fac e..........nice to see.......training..........yeah.
> 
> 
> Just thought I'd try it. Gave myself a headache---Dan


Hey Danjo threes my limit...

But I am glad you are showing how you love to embellish...

Good to know...

I told you how MUCH I liked your web site...

Back to the topic... The Book can be picked apart just like my threads only when you show your real style all else pales by comparison...Pathetic...

I remember the old, you scratch my back and I will scratch yours...

No problem...

Regards, Gary


----------



## Danjo

GAB said:
			
		

> Hey Danjo threes my limit...
> 
> But I am glad you are showing how you love to embellish...
> 
> Good to know...
> 
> I told you how MUCH I liked your web site...
> 
> Back to the topic... The Book can be picked apart just like my threads only when you show your real style all else pales by comparison...Pathetic...
> 
> I remember the old, you scratch my back and I will scratch yours...
> 
> No problem...
> 
> Regards, Gary


Just poking fun


----------



## Matt

GAB said:
			
		

> Boy Matt,
> 
> I can sure relate to that...
> 
> My Brother and I have a bible at his house in a safe place, goes back to the period when our forefathers lived in old europe and came to the Americas...
> In it is listed all our relatives back to the time when they departed and came her in the early 1700's (our Moms side)...
> It has been well taken care of...When looking at the hand written entries in it sends chills up your spine...


Nice! It's great that you have managed to keep hold of a piece of history like that. It's nice to have some tangible connections to one's past. 



> Can you imagine Al Tracy cut his copy up (or one of twenty), put it on the web for all to see???
> 
> Talk about sharing, you got to love it,  even if he you don't always agree...I don't agree with a lot of what is written, but they have their rights and I have mine...


I think they chopped up a 1981 version. I hope they chopped up a 1981 version. 


> I will fight for their rights and mine it is in the Constitution of the US...
> 
> Just lets keep it on a civil level...
> 
> Once upon a time, I would fight at the drop of a hat.
> Now I don't wait till it hits the ground...Not much time left, might as well enjoy it while I still can...


Hey, I like that one!


> I bet Sijo would like to stick his hand in my face, hell I don't blame...I respect him to no end, we just disagree on a few things...
> 
> Regards, Gary



Okay, you lost me on that one. I think I missed something there.  
Take Care, 

Matt


----------



## kelly keltner

I would say something but, I was told to "loose the attitude" by a certain individual who had the power to hit me for 5 rep points. So I will keep my wit to myself.


kell


----------



## John Bishop

GAB said:
			
		

> Boy Matt,
> 
> I bet Sijo would like to stick his hand in my face, hell I don't blame...I respect him to no end, we just disagree on a few things...
> 
> Regards, Gary


I can guarantee you that Sijo dosen't lose any sleep over your opinions.  If fact Sijo dosen't even know you exist.


----------



## GAB

John Bishop said:
			
		

> I can guarantee you that Sijo dosen't lose any sleep over your opinions. If fact Sijo dosen't even know you exist.


John, I am glad to hear that I can sleep better now...

Regards, Gary


----------



## Kosho-Monk

> I would say something but, I was told to "loose the attitude" by a certain individual who had the power to hit me for 5 rep points. So I will keep my wit to myself.


 
OK.  I keep reading these things about "rep" points.  I'm guessing this means reprimand points.  What are they, where are they and why should I care about them?

Thanks.


-John


----------



## GAB

kelly keltner said:
			
		

> I would say something but, I was told to "loose the attitude" by a certain individual who had the power to hit me for 5 rep points. So I will keep my wit to myself.
> kell


Thats it kell??? "Oh Monk Quest Champ"? Congrats on your new job. Good going dude...

The book is a good one for the time frame. Can you imagine being the son of a mom, who was the daughter of a man, who was a Samurai Warrior and treated like that in the post war era???
Yet he taught his disguised art anyway, had to make a living owning brothels, where did he get that money? It was ok to have them in those days and time...

Think...He had wavy hair not hair as straight as a rapier...Think, lets stick ourselves in that time frame and see what might have happened. He probably considered himself a Ronin Warrior and the 21st descendent...Hmmm what if he really was???

Regards, Gary


----------



## GAB

Kosho-Monk said:
			
		

> OK. I keep reading these things about "rep" points. I'm guessing this means reprimand points. What are they, where are they and why should I care about them?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> 
> -John


Hi John, You should not on this thread..Go to the Admin forum and read it there.
Ask your questions there in the proper place... If not a moderator will be here and telling us not to talk off topic...

Back to the book...I just was watching a "doce pares" DVD the Filipino arts have a lot of the foot work that is in Mitose's book where did that come from some say Japan some say China some say it went back and forth...

If it did not fit into EPAK who cares, Edmund Parker made up his own style who say's his is the right way??? EPAK people OK. 

How about the real fighters the Kajukenbo people who have 4/5/6/7 different arts thrown in together and the best survived...I started in Kaju... I know it is a good art and it saved my bacon, many times...

They were the, black belt thugs of Hawaii and then they became legit and all...Sifu (professor later) John Leoning used to say this is just the street fighting of Hawaii... Good stuff...

I am not kissing up here, I am just telling you my thoughts...

My son and my nephew were in the 92 internationals and got disqualified for fighting to rough...Hey, Hanshi loved it...They (other side) started the rough stuff. Hurt them in a public place and they won't mess with you... Trophies are for those who want to play by the rules...

You don't win the war by playing by the rules...War is Hell, don't go there if you can't handle it...

Regards, Gary


----------



## The Kai

GAB said:
			
		

> Thats it kell??? "Oh Monk Quest Champ"? Congrats on your new job. Good going dude...
> 
> The book is a good one for the time frame. Can you imagine being the son of a mom, who was the daughter of a man, who was a Samurai Warrior and treated like that in the post war era???


I think imagine would be a important concept here



		Code:
	

Yet he taught his disguised art anyway,

 
What evidence do you have that he taught anything different from what was presented in the book??



		Code:
	

had to make a living owning brothels, where did he get that money? It was ok to have them in those days and time...

 
I don't think "has" to make a living off a brothel, it is a choice, I don't think that brothels were ever legal, or moral in Hawaii ( I may be wrong)



		Code:
	

 Think...He had wavy hair not hair as straight as a rapier...Think, lets stick ourselves in that time frame and see what might have happened. He probably considered himself a Ronin Warrior and the 21st descendent...Hmmm what if he really was???

 
Hmm, let's see...


----------



## The Kai

_Back to the book...I just was watching a "doce pares" DVD the Filipino arts have a lot of the foot work that is in Mitose's book where did that come from some say Japan some say China some say it went back and forth_

In my understanding all FMA footwork is based off the triangle, either stepping in or back.  A real strong tendency to seek the angle.
In the book, his footwork seems to be linear.  Actually standing ontop the other guy-look at the nearness of thier stances.  In fact on the page posted earlier, his foot starts crossing behind himself on a step through 

Simiarities
1.) They both had 2 legs
2.) they both had to move one foot at a time


----------



## James Kovacich

The Kai said:
			
		

> _Back to the book...I just was watching a "doce pares" DVD the Filipino arts have a lot of the foot work that is in Mitose's book where did that come from some say Japan some say China some say it went back and forth_
> 
> In my understanding all FMA footwork is based off the triangle, either stepping in or back.



"Probably" most FMA use the triangle. Serrada does but the Larga Mano that I've been exposed to "so far" has been linear.


----------



## The Kai

The Doce Pares that i was exposed to emphasised the triangle.  I Imagine largo mano being a longer range system would not


----------



## kelly keltner

Kosho-Monk said:
			
		

> OK.  I keep reading these things about "rep" points.  I'm guessing this means reprimand points.  What are they, where are they and why should I care about them?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> 
> -John


 They're reputation points and you can give them to a specific post/poster by clicking on the little scales of justice in the right hand corner of the post.
Should you care about them?  NAH. They're just a little fun thing that I don't take too seriously anymore. Some people use them as a control/discipline device. Some folks here can even hit you for 5 or more points for one ding depending on where in Martialtalk caste system they sit. So back to the topic. 
If the pictures in What is self-defense were added at the behest of the publisher, and the publisher/s were Mitose's students. Does that mean that Mitose's students were the ones who convinced/pressured him to put in pictures?

One more thing on the rep points issue. If you go to your users CP it will show you your rep points/score. Although you won't know who gave you what unless they signed it.

kelly


----------



## GAB

The Kai said:
			
		

> The Doce Pares that i was exposed to emphasised the triangle. I Imagine largo mano being a longer range system would not


Hi Kai,

The triangle is a part of the octagon which we all know is what the mon is in Kosho...
The ninth position is in the center of the octagon you have 8 triangles...

Largo mano still uses the same only larger... Rather then one step or a half step it might be one long and one short or skip step... Still the triangles, then of course you have the right and the left and the forward and rear like a cross..

Old stuff look at the I ching in China and the hexagram and triagrams look for the simularities...The answer is that Hanshi Bruce was given the keys Todd.

Regards, Gary


----------



## The Kai

I had the impression that Mitose was the publisher, while the students fronted the money.

How could you realistically publish a book on the martial arts with no pictures?


----------



## James Kovacich

The Kai said:
			
		

> The Doce Pares that i was exposed to emphasised the triangle.  I Imagine largo mano being a longer range system would not


Yes, so far, I've found that it "comes and goes" in the FMA. You learn the triangle and and when you spar, it all goes "out the window."


----------



## James Kovacich

GAB said:
			
		

> Hi Kai,
> 
> 
> Old stuff look at the I ching in China and the hexagram and triagrams
> 
> Regards, Gary


FMA in general kinda seems related to the Chinese arts.


----------



## kelly keltner

The Kai said:
			
		

> I had the impression that Mitose was the publisher, while the students fronted the money.
> 
> How could you realistically publish a book on the martial arts with no pictures?


 I guess that would depend on what you were trying to emphasize. I was always taught if you understand the philosiphy the technique becomes self-explanitory. Then again I guess someone will come up with a counter expanation for this also.

kk


----------



## GAB

The Kai said:
			
		

> I had the impression that Mitose was the publisher, while the students fronted the money.
> 
> How could you realistically publish a book on the martial arts with no pictures?


Todd he started out wanting to publish something like the bible.
Words, stories, When he went to publish it, he was told he needed pictures etc...

He wanted to get away from the war arts...

Todd I thought you had been in Kosho and learned some of this stuff...

Look at the SKSKI site and read about the mon and what it represents, have you forgotten what you learned or am I wrong on the idea that you were in the KAI???

Regards, Gary


----------



## The Kai

Then why did he title it "What is Self defense"?  That would certainly get in the way of publishing a Bible.

If you want to read a book on philosophy Read "being and nothingness" bt Sarte

PS "A good student asks questions"


----------



## Danjo

GAB said:
			
		

> Todd he started out wanting to publish something like the bible.
> Words, stories, When he went to publish it, he was told he needed pictures etc...
> 
> He wanted to get away from the war arts...
> 
> Todd I thought you had been in Kosho and learned some of this stuff...
> 
> Look at the SKSKI site and read about the mon and what it represents, have you forgotten what you learned or am I wrong on the idea that you were in the KAI???
> 
> Regards, Gary


He must have learned all of that non-violence from that great pacifist Choki Motubu


----------



## GAB

Danjo said:
			
		

> He must have learned all of that non-violence from that great pacifist Choki Motubu


Hi Danjo,

I wish that story could be verified but the latest I heard, (maybe met him and borrowed from him,) but I don't think they were related even in the adopted manner that Japanese are famous for and then un-adopting you...

I have several items (books and videos) that are translated about Choki.
I was having a private lesson on the bo at Sensei Tim Evans this morning and we talked about Choki and Matsumura and several others, and the lineage he teach's (Sensei Tim) Shorin-Ryu Karate-Do Okinawa Kobudo...

Regards, Gary


----------



## John Bishop

GAB said:
			
		

> Hi Danjo,
> 
> I wish that story could be verified but the latest I heard, (maybe met him and borrowed from him,) but I don't think they were related even in the adopted manner that Japanese are famous for and then un-adopting you...
> 
> Regards, Gary


Choki Motobu was Okinawan.  James Mitose was Japanese.  Contrary to what some westerners may think, there is a vast differance between the two peoples.  
Okinawan's have their own language.  They have their own culture, which is closer to the Chinese culture then it is to Japanese culture.  Even physically, Okinawans are a smaller people then Japanese.  
So during that time a Okinawan would not be "adopting" a Japanese.  If anything, it would be the opposite.


----------



## Danjo

GAB said:
			
		

> Hi Danjo,
> 
> I wish that story could be verified but the latest I heard, (maybe met him and borrowed from him,) but I don't think they were related even in the adopted manner that Japanese are famous for and then un-adopting you...
> 
> I have several items (books and videos) that are translated about Choki.
> I was having a private lesson on the bo at Sensei Tim Evans this morning and we talked about Choki and Matsumura and several others, and the lineage he teach's (Sensei Tim) Shorin-Ryu Karate-Do Okinawa Kobudo...
> 
> Regards, Gary


My point had more to do with the notion that if Mitose had trained with Motobu, he would NOT have learned pacifism from him. Quite the opposite. And, if Mitose _were _such a pacifist, then why in hell would he have paid such great compliments to Motobu? Many of Motobu's contemporaries felt he was too brutal and too much of a fighter, so why would some big pacifist like Mitose claimed to be (you weren't even supposed to use your kenpo for self-defense !?!) sing such a man's praises?


----------



## GAB

Danjo,

I know what you ment, I just answered regarding the relation idea... I told you I had books and Videos. I truly know about the stories and how he was disliked.(Motobu) The stories of him and Funakoshi and the Boxing match that was awarded to Funakoshi in the papers etc...Saying Motobu was a pacifist is like saying the same about General G. Patton, a play on words...

John exactly, 

So why the constant verbage he went to Okinawa instead of Japan.

The Tracy's talk about it in depth on the site and Ted Sumners site. He went to Japan... His relationship was with three families, that revolved with Yoshida Clan. And other information. Mike Brown has that information...

The Okinawan stories are coming out of the eastcoast schools from angle 3 of the octagon... 

He spoke Japanese not Okinawan, as I understand the Satsuma clan was not a large invading force and occuping with lots of troops. The relationship with China was much more prevelant. When the Japanese went and took over Okinawa it was during the time of the Chinese return to the womb mentality.

Their huge flotilla was no longer there and they went back to being isolated.
So they did not protect the Okinawan"s (Ryu Kyu)

There are so many different takes on the various reasons for the rise and fall of the area called Asia, it is almost as convoluted as the stories about James the criminal Mitose...For every pro you have two con or visa versa...

The book is a piece of history, you can tear it up and use it for firestarter or you can look at it for what it is...

Regards, Gary


----------



## John Bishop

GAB said:
			
		

> Danjo,
> 
> John exactly,
> 
> So why the constant verbage he went to Okinawa instead of Japan.
> 
> Regards, Gary


I have actually never heard that version. But it dosen't surprise me.

*And then, **Will Tracy wrote:
*
_I began training directly under Great Grand Master Fusae Oshita.  _
_Oshita was Great Grand Master under Great Grand Master Kiyoka Yoshida and taught with James Mitose from 1942 to 1953. _
_It was Oshita who showed me the Way of Kenpo, and from whom I received Shodan in November 1961. I also trained personally with Professor William K. S. Chow, who was junior to Oshita, and from whom I also received Shodan in 1961. I also trained with Great Grand Master Shizue, who had trained in Japan along side James Mitose, under Great Grand Master Sakuhi Yoshida, and Great Grand Master Toju KOMATSU.
Takiyoshi (KOMATSU) introduced the first elements of Jiujitsu into Kosho-Kenpo in the 12th Century, and every succeeding master of Kenpo made his or her changes to the system.
_
Now this should be pretty easy to prove.  
Mitose put some of his class pictures in his book.  
Ed Parker put some of Prof. Chow's class pictures in his book.  
I have some pictures of Prof. Chow's classes before Mr. Parker joined it. 
And I'm sure there were many more class and group pictures taken in the 40's, 50's, and 60's. 
So all Will Tracy, or anyone else has to do is produce these some class pictures with these "other instructors" in them.  
I'm sure Will Tracy has a picture of him and his instructor, "Fusae Oshita".  Dosen't everyone have a picture of themselves and their instructor? 

 
 
Maybe this is one of the reasons I question Wilbur Tracy's credibility.
http://www.watchman.org/cults/sexgodss.htm


----------



## GAB

The Kai said:
			
		

> Then why did he title it "What is Self defense"? That would certainly get in the way of publishing a Bible.
> 
> If you want to read a book on philosophy Read "being and nothingness" bt Sarte
> 
> PS "A good student asks questions"


Todd,

If you knew his thoughts on what true self defense is, you would not be asking the question, that is the nut inside of the shell. 

But no one wanted to hear his thoughts on true self defense. He must have been reading Gichin Funakoshi or visa versa. True self defense is not getting in an altercation. No fighting, then if you have to, still evade and if all else fails then the fighting arts, throwing or manipulating the opponent, then blocking, then striking and kicking last.

The cold war with Russia was a good example of self defense a few small skirimishishes but not the bomb anymore..

But look at the stupidity of it or was it, prosperous times build this then, that, then this again...

Hey just thinking about what you said...

Regards, Gary





When "you" are asking the question. "You are the good student" when others are asking, is it a different story???


----------



## Mekosho

(scratches his head and wonders)...where did I put that secret decoder ring?!?!?!


----------



## GAB

Hi John,

When I saw this post I called Hanshi, I had read that very information on SJK.

I believe I have this right Kiyoka Yoshida (mitose) was the mother of Fusae Mitose and James. Maybe Fusae changed her name to protect herself and was teaching after James left the Island. In blunders Will (not the sharpest rock in the road) and is totally conned???

Could Will have been mis-spelling the name of Fusae Mitose and messed up the name of Yoshida to Oshita. Some sort of perverse joke? I mean with the cult he and his wife founded and "I belive might still be undergroud" They must have gotten into some stong MJ.

Fusae being the sister of James??? Or ex Girl friend ????

And, No I don't partake of that stuff...Stongest stuff these days is Welchs grape juice...

I know I am speculating and could lose my Gi here, but that is the best I could come up with.

I can't tell you what Hanshi said about Will, but it was not kind, true but harsh.

He said go ahead and see what they say, you can't screw it up any worse then Will did...

Pure unadulterated speculation on my part, I take the whole blame...

Put that decoder ring on your left thumb it might help...LOL

Regards, Gary


----------



## John Bishop

GAB said:
			
		

> Hi John,
> 
> When I saw this post I called Hanshi, I had read that very information on SJK.
> 
> I believe I have this right Kiyoka Yoshida (mitose) was the mother of Fusae Mitose and James. Maybe Fusae changed her name to protect herself and was teaching after James left the Island. In blunders Will (not the sharpest rock in the road) and is totally conned???
> 
> Could Will have been mis-spelling the name of Fusae Mitose and messed up the name of Yoshida to Oshita. Some sort of perverse joke? I mean with the cult he and his wife founded and "I belive might still be undergroud" They must have gotten into some stong MJ.
> 
> Fusae being the sister of James??? Or ex Girl friend ????
> 
> And, No I don't partake of that stuff...Stongest stuff these days is Welchs grape juice...
> 
> I know I am speculating and could lose my Gi here, but that is the best I could come up with.
> 
> I can't tell you what Hanshi said about Will, but it was not kind, true but harsh.
> 
> He said go ahead and see what they say, you can't screw it up any worse then Will did...
> 
> Pure unadulterated speculation on my part, I take the whole blame...
> 
> Regards, Gary


The way the story goes is her true name was Clara Mitose. And she was James's sister. Her Japanese name was Fusae Mitose. Her married name was Oshita.

So I'm still suggesting that if the Tracy's want to put forth the claim that she was a "Great Grandmaster", they should be able to easily obtain class pictures of her from her days of assisting James Mitose, and William Chow. 

Mitose put pictures of Choki Motobu and Kamesuke Higashionna in his book. They were both masters of Okinawan kenpo karate.
One has to wonder why Mitose would use their pictures in his book, when he came from a family with a long line of kenpo masters?


----------



## Danjo

John Bishop said:
			
		

> One has to wonder why Mitose would use their pictures in his book, when he came from a family with a long line of kenpo masters?


Wondered that myself. If Mitose had all of these (20) ancestors passing the pure form down [that doesn't really involve fighting anyone due to their uber-spiritual bent], then what is he doing taking lessons from a person with such a violent reputation? Someone who used to say things like, "Karate is Sente" and "I started having fights in Tsuji when I was young, and fought over 100 of them, but I was never hit in the face." etc. 

Not the peaceful serene type of instructor Mitose would have sought out and praised eh?


----------



## The Kai

GAB said:
			
		

> Todd,
> 
> If you knew his thoughts on what true self defense is, you would not be asking the question, that is the nut inside of the shell.
> 
> But no one wanted to hear his thoughts on true self defense. He must have been reading Gichin Funakoshi or visa versa. True self defense is not getting in an altercation. No fighting, then if you have to, still evade and if all else fails then the fighting arts, throwing or manipulating the opponent, then blocking, then striking and kicking last.
> 
> The cold war with Russia was a good example of self defense a few small skirimishishes but not the bomb anymore..
> 
> But look at the stupidity of it or was it, prosperous times build this then, that, then this again...
> 
> Hey just thinking about what you said...
> 
> Regards, Gary
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When "you" are asking the question. "You are the good student" when others are asking, is it a different story???


Actually the Cold War was more about two enties that feared the others strenght.  In a analogy it would be like having a street rep and avoiding fights that way. Again there are avenues and audiences for books on philosophy.  People still debate the "E Cogito Sum", in fact Sarte wroten a whole section in "Being and nothingness" to debunk it.
I Imagine a book with out pictures would be a lot cheaper to print, there fore less investers, therefor less pressure.  Here's teh thing with his life philosophy, he did'nt follow it-but wanted to spread it???
Questions are good
But could you please focus a little tighter for me?


----------



## GAB

John Bishop said:
			
		

> The way the story goes is her true name was Clara Mitose. And she was James's sister. Her Japanese name was Fusae Mitose. Her married name was Oshita.
> 
> So I'm still suggesting that if the Tracy's want to put forth the claim that she was a "Great Grandmaster", they should be able to easily obtain class pictures of her from her days of assisting James Mitose, and William Chow.
> 
> Mitose put pictures of Choki Motobu and Kamesuke Higashionna in his book. They were both masters of Okinawan kenpo karate.
> One has to wonder why Mitose would use their pictures in his book, when he came from a family with a long line of kenpo masters?


Hi John,

This chess game is taking some time but we will get there eventually...

Thanks for confirming what some of us know...When this was discussed on another thread no one realized we are talking a women not a man..You notice others referred to "him" not Will though...Still, "the game is a foot"... I like that saying (Sherlock Holmes) to Dr Watson...Some can relate others can't, means it is on the move (animal or man or ???)...

As far as why use other pictures, rather then the ones of your own lineage...

Goes back to the secrets, and how many games have we all played??? 

Sometimes we are fishing and other times we are hunting and other times we just want to kill something...

Gamesmanship, you have to love it. 

Same as golf, it is when the stress finally takes over and they blow it. 
No better player then Greg Norman...But, he just gave out when stress built up...Johnny Miller one of my all time favorites...Had to give up the game because of the shakes and it was all mental.

The pursuit is what is the stimulas, the catch is a let down. 

Intrigue, that is all about James Mitose and his sordid life...Am I getting to deep here? Or, I should say can anyone follow??? 

John, are you one step ahead? Is there a chance I can get you and Hanshi together???

Thanks John, Your signature is a give away...Mine also...

Regards, Gary


----------



## GAB

The Kai said:
			
		

> Actually the Cold War was more about two enties that feared the others strenght. In a analogy it would be like having a street rep and avoiding fights that way. Again there are avenues and audiences for books on philosophy. People still debate the "E Cogito Sum", in fact Sarte wroten a whole section in "Being and nothingness" to debunk it.
> I Imagine a book with out pictures would be a lot cheaper to print, there fore less investers, therefor less pressure. Here's teh thing with his life philosophy, he did'nt follow it-but wanted to spread it???
> Questions are good
> But could you please focus a little tighter for me?


Hi Todd, Yes, one mans opinion and then anothers. Kind of like in the court room both sides have experts and both sides have their story. 

I am looking for what others are "truth" but as all have agenda's (as John said and put a nail in my coffin). But hey no biggie, you got to play the hand you are dealt. 

Game is not over till it is over..Got to Love YOGI... His book about "when you come to the Y in to road and all that stuff". We are talking pure Gamesmanship...

Regards, Gary


----------



## The Kai

Focus, Please.  I have no clue as to what you are talking about!  Could I decipher it?  Probably, is it worth it, NO.  Try to focus, Please. If you want the truth, quit pinning your hopes on outrageous theories.


----------



## GAB

The Kai said:
			
		

> Focus, Please. I have no clue as to what you are talking about! Could I decipher it? Probably, is it worth it, NO. Try to focus, Please. If you want the truth, quit pinning your hopes on outrageous theories.


Hi Todd,

See we differ quite a bit you take it as theory and I am trying to explain it...

For example, I will tell you it is a shade of black and you will say it is grey...Or visa versa...

You need to quit your continuous correction of me and stick to the subject yourself. You will learn more that way...

I never worry about your continuous mistakes in your typing or other statements, so don't worry about mine especially when the thread is not directed towards your comment.

Hanshi has the keys Todd, Last night we talked and he said if you tell them outright then you won't know how much they know...

Now read this. Very few knew/know that person John and I are talking about is a she and not a he...
Reminds me of the thread that turned to gender that Joe got hammered on...

Now if you don't know about that One I would advise you to go to Joes name in Membership. Or find out the last post by clicking on his name and then clicking on the post's he has been in...

Find out where he was and then you will know the thread I am talking about.

You are not a moderator or ??? So give it up Todd... Hundreds read this, its not like a personnal E-mail...

Respectfully requested...

Regards, Gary


----------



## The Kai

GAB

I know i'm not a mod.  I thought if you could be understood, maybe you would make some headway.  You avoid. evade, talk around the truth as much as possible.  Answer question with a question.  Why
case in point If you are talking about the Kiyoka Yoshida theory why not just say it?  If you are not then why not say it?   Do you think it sound better with all your dancing around?


----------



## Bester

Garys posts are always interesting.

Medicated, Intoxicated or just from aliens beaming the rays.  Make a tinfoil hat, stop the madness.

Topic, what is topic. Let us take a magic carpet ride.


----------



## GAB

The Kai said:
			
		

> GAB
> 
> I know i'm not a mod. I thought if you could be understood, maybe you would make some headway. You avoid. evade, talk around the truth as much as possible. Answer question with a question. Why
> case in point If you are talking about the Kiyoka Yoshida theory why not just say it? If you are not then why not say it? Do you think it sound better with all your dancing around?


Ok Todd, before the discussion and what lead up to it did you know about Kiyoka Yoshida being James Mitose's mother? 

She changed her name back to her maiden name "if you want that verbage". Or did you just now pick up on it and if you knew about it before why have you not brought that information forth...

Now I am at liberty to bring it about in a fashon but not to disclose it totally..

I have explained it in prior post's there are, books being created, as we speak and unless I know what others know I am not going to be the one to devulge... 
But apparently people would rather attack me and what I am try to do then listen and learn...
When you go to the dojo do they teach the white belt the brown belts Katas??? 
No! So I am not going to devulge anymore then you have the ability to ask... 

Put it this way you say to me, I learned the Niahanchi Kata as a white belt will you tell me all about it??? (in dojo) I say we don't teach that until say (whatever you want because some schools teach at different times) and then I ask, where did you learn that you are only a white belt... 

Oh I saw it on a video and want to learn it sooner because I already know it...I say do the Kata...You say, Huh, or you show me before I show you or correct it or say no we don't do that..Next question...Does that make sense to you??

I have explained the Chess game many times Todd. Try and get a straight answer out of a Sub level 4 instructor, good luck...

Regards, Gary


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## GAB

Bester said:
			
		

> Garys posts are always interesting.
> 
> Medicated, Intoxicated or just from aliens beaming the rays. Make a tinfoil hat, stop the madness.
> 
> Topic, what is topic. Let us take a magic carpet ride.


Hi Bester, Ain't that the truth...LOL

You know that is the truth for me to stay on topic is tough, not just because I can't, the persons who are asking or hammering me don't stay there either...

I will say this, about that, and the other thing. Is it clear now???LOL

Topic, the book that James Mitose wrote and was edited and is the 1981 Copy...Right???

Anyone have a useful question or should we just close up early and get a couple of shooter's and beer???

Regards, Gary


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## The Kai

okay ever one lets foolow the twists and turns down the warren hole.  The name with with Mitose-there have been what 4 different stories on what the name could have been, all without a shread of proof.  

_Now I am at liberty to bring it about in a fashon but not to disclose it totally_

This will be different from all the times you pasted before....How??

Please don't think I'm trying to attack you.  1.) We are havinga discussion or a debate 2.) I don't like opinions presenrted as fact, then refered to as again as fact, same goes for Theories
And no in the Dojo I do not teach White Belts Brown Belt Katas.  But... They stay constant, are not lied about or told false assumptions about the kata


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## The Kai

GAB said:
			
		

> Hi Bester, Ain't that the truth...LOL
> 
> You know that is the truth for me to stay on topic is tough, not just because I can't, the persons who are asking or hammering me don't stay there either...
> 
> I will say this, about that, and the other thing. Is it clear now???LOL
> 
> Topic, the book that James Mitose wrote and was edited and is the 1981 Copy...Right???
> 
> Anyone have a useful question or should we just close up early and get a couple of shooter's and beer???
> 
> Regards, Gary


GAB
Don't tell me you are wondering why no one else can stay on topic???  Too Funny!!
_Topic, the book that James Mitose wrote and was edited and is the 1981 Copy...Right???_

Regardless of the year they would have been all written and edited by the same person


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## John Bishop

We've all seen people who join discussions to cause caos, bring attention to themselves, or put forward their own agenda.  The term I see used on internet forums is "trolls". 
But people are welcome to post here as long as they abide by the rules of the forum.

*Myself personally*, I'm just going to ignore GAB, and continue with the excellent discussions we have had here on the kenpo arts.  

My own reasons for ignoring GAB are simple.
By his own admission, GAB is not a kenpo stylist, so he has not spent the time in the kenpo arts to have any real first hand knowledge.  Which is not a bad thing, until you start questioning or insulting people who have/had spent 20-60 years in the kenpo arts.  
And I have grown tired of his rants, incoherrant writings, innuendo, and propaganda.   

If his claims are true, then I say this:

Being a white belt in Kajukenbo 40 years ago,
Being in the Marine Corp for 4 years,
Being on LAPD for 10 years,
Practicing FMA,
Having Bruce Juchnik as your son's teacher, 
Are all good things, but not anything that qualifies a person to have a educated opinion on everything and everyone in kenpo.    

I find it real hard to believe that someone in the position that Bruce Juchnik is in, would pick someone like GAB to be his spokesman.  
One would think that he would pick someone a little more knowledgeable, a little more articulate, a little less likely to rant and carry on, and someone who actually practiced kenpo.

For all I know GAB could be a troublesome teenager, or just someone who likes to read his own words on the internet.  In reality, nobody here really knows GAB.  

So as I said, *I personally *will be continuing to participate in these interesting and useful discussions, and just ignore GAB.

So GAB, don't take it out on any of the members or staff here by ranting about what I said personally.  
Everyone here is going to do what they choose to do.  I'm simply saying that *I will* be ignoring your posts for the above stated reasons.


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## Doc

John Bishop said:
			
		

> We've all seen people who join discussions to cause caos, bring attention to themselves, or put forward their own agenda.  The term I see used on internet forums is "trolls".
> But people are welcome to post here as long as they abide by the rules of the forum.
> 
> *Myself personally*, I'm just going to ignore GAB, and continue with the excellent discussions we have had here on the kenpo arts.
> 
> My own reasons for ignoring GAB are simple.
> By his own admission, GAB is not a kenpo stylist, so he has not spent the time in the kenpo arts to have any real first hand knowledge.  Which is not a bad thing, until you start questioning or insulting people who have/had spent 20-60 years in the kenpo arts.
> And I have grown tired of his rants, incoherrant writings, innuendo, and propaganda.
> 
> If his claims are true, then I say this:
> 
> Being a white belt in Kajukenbo 40 years ago,
> Being in the Marine Corp for 4 years,
> Being on LAPD for 10 years,
> Practicing FMA,
> Having Bruce Juchnik as your son's teacher,
> Are all good things, but not anything that qualifies a person to have a educated opinion on everything and everyone in kenpo.
> 
> I find it real hard to believe that someone in the position that Bruce Juchnik is in, would pick someone like GAB to be his spokesman.
> One would think that he would pick someone a little more knowledgeable, a little more articulate, a little less likely to rant and carry on, and someone who actually practiced kenpo.
> 
> For all I know GAB could be a troublesome teenager, or just someone who likes to read his own words on the internet.  In reality, nobody here really knows GAB.
> 
> So as I said, *I personally *will be continuing to participate in these interesting and useful discussions, and just ignore GAB.
> 
> So GAB, don't take it out on any of the members or staff here by ranting about what I said personally.
> Everyone here is going to do what they choose to do.  I'm simply saying that *I will* be ignoring your posts for the above stated reasons.


Welcome to the club. Hopefully our membership will continue to grow.


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## Bester

Focus, lose focus,
Everything is so green.
Worms eat my brain, 
Khan said so
The game is afoot,
Checkmate in 3

Gary, Queen to Queens Level Three


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## Danjo

Doc said:
			
		

> Welcome to the club. Hopefully our membership will continue to grow.


Ditto.


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## kelly keltner

The Kai said:
			
		

> I had the impression that Mitose was the publisher, while the students fronted the money.
> 
> How could you realistically publish a book on the martial arts with no pictures?


 So let me rephrase the answer:
 If the students fronted the money and wanted pictures in the book wouldn't Mitose consent to doing pictures to get it published. If he needed their money and did not want them to rescind their funding?

kelly


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## GAB

The Kai said:
			
		

> GAB
> Don't tell me you are wondering why no one else can stay on topic??? Too Funny!!
> _Topic, the book that James Mitose wrote and was edited and is the 1981 Copy...Right???_
> 
> Regardless of the year they would have been all written and edited by the same person


Hi Kai

I am going to answer this to you.  

The one that was edited in 81 had some things added to it by several of the persons Hanshi Bruce had introduced to James Mitose to get certificates, added some information in that book and not the one that is the original when Mitose had it done in 1953...Similar to a reprint with some added by Hanshi...

Hope that is clear...

Of course I run off of topic...


John and all, that is fine with me...You say what you want, have been for quite awhile and when it is all written in a few books that will come out with in??? 

It will be clearer for you and you will then know. So continue to speculate and postulate and that is fine..I am who I am and that is what I have been telling you...

I will be fine with it either way...

Hanshi likes what is happening and that is all that counts...

Regards, Gary


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## GAB

Bester said:
			
		

> Focus, lose focus,
> Everything is so green.
> Worms eat my brain,
> Khan said so
> The game is afoot,
> Checkmate in 3
> 
> Gary, Queen to Queens Level Three


Bester.

Well that one is not a game I am familiar with...But the game is moving in a good direction...

Regards, Gary


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## bart

akja said:
			
		

> Yes, so far, I've found that it "comes and goes" in the FMA. You learn the triangle and and when you spar, it all goes "out the window."




It's not supposed to work that way. Sparring and freestyle work should be things that you use to develop using angles and stepping patterns. But often a lot more time is spent on static drills and preset patterns than developing combative skill that can be employed in random full contact sparring.


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## The Kai

kelly keltner said:
			
		

> So let me rephrase the answer:
> If the students fronted the money and wanted pictures in the book wouldn't Mitose consent to doing pictures to get it published. If he needed their money and did not want them to rescind their funding?
> 
> kelly


Hey Guys I have a great idea, you're gonna give me a bunch of money so I can publish a book on the Martial Arts.  Wait, Wait here is the best part.... _There won't be any martial arts in it at all, not even one stinking picture... Of course I know there are books on philosophy that are published.  But we'll publish this with strong martial arts feel, a Martial arts cover, we'll get local martial artist for the debute...and just imagine the surprise when anybody open the book and there are no martial arts in the book!!_

Reading the foolow up book written later, there is no philosphy in that book either

Question, if he did'nt believe in Martial arts, pictures, or even what the pictures in the book. *Why did he appear in the pictures*??


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## The Kai

Why was GAB Banned??  His posts seemed no further out there than before.  PM if you will


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Short Version:
He has been warned repeatedly to cease disrupting threads and slandering our staff.  He did not. His unique posting style has worn out its welcome here.  There is alot more to it, but that is the "short" version.


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## The Kai

Allright New question

There are part of the book that are "borrowed", that is a given.

How about the technique sequences?
were they copied from another source
or just part of them


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## James Kovacich

bart said:
			
		

> It's not supposed to work that way. Sparring and freestyle work should be things that you use to develop using angles and stepping patterns. But often a lot more time is spent on static drills and preset patterns than developing combative skill that can be employed in random full contact sparring.


I understand that you are very right. My skills are in development still. But the triangle does "fit my style" well.

SacTown in the house, you're about an hour and a half away from me.


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## kelly keltner

The Kai said:
			
		

> Hey Guys I have a great idea, you're gonna give me a bunch of money so I can publish a book on the Martial Arts.  Wait, Wait here is the best part.... _There won't be any martial arts in it at all, not even one stinking picture... Of course I know there are books on philosophy that are published.  But we'll publish this with strong martial arts feel, a Martial arts cover, we'll get local martial artist for the debute...and just imagine the surprise when anybody open the book and there are no martial arts in the book!!_
> 
> Reading the foolow up book written later, there is no philosphy in that book either
> 
> Question, if he did'nt believe in Martial arts, pictures, or even what the pictures in the book. *Why did he appear in the pictures*??


 Give it a rest Todd You were around Kosho long enough to know the answers to your questions. You may not like the answers  but you know them. I don't have the time to play the game any longer.

kelly


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## Danjo

kelly keltner said:
			
		

> Give it a rest Todd You were around Kosho long enough to know the answers to your questions. You may not like the answers but you know them. I don't have the time to play the game any longer.
> 
> kelly


Why not tell the rest of us the secret answers and end this controversy?


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## The Kai

kelly keltner said:
			
		

> Give it a rest Todd You were around Kosho long enough to know the answers to your questions. You may not like the answers but you know them. I don't have the time to play the game any longer.
> 
> kelly


Then don't throw out theories without any proof
Here's the game -you are trying so very hard to tack a grand ancient history on Kosho or make Mitose into something he is not.
Don't ram your version of history down everyones throat-Flash all Martial Arts History is a little suspect.  Emperado, well that's his version of events, The KaJu people have a take it or leave it philosophy.  You have your version, there is bound to be conflicts
Instead spend your time honoring and respecting the real genuis behind your system
Hanshi Juchnik


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## MJS

Mod. Note. 
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-MJS
-MT Moderator-


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## The Kai

Sorry


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## Matt

GAB said:
			
		

> Hi Kai
> 
> I am going to answer this to you.
> 
> The one that was edited in 81 had some things added to it by several of the persons Hanshi Bruce had introduced to James Mitose to get certificates, added some information in that book and not the one that is the original when Mitose had it done in 1953...Similar to a reprint with some added by Hanshi...
> 
> Hope that is clear...



Actually, I was working off the '53 (or 1947)editions. Sorry. The techinical pictures are the same in all of them. 

Matt


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## Danjo

I was thinking the other day about why someone like
Prof. Chow would have been involved with Mitose if
Mitose was not a very good martial artist.(even I quit
a school after three weeks when I figured out that the
instructor was all talk and no skill.) Why would he
have taken Emperado to him etc?

 Then a couple of different things came to mind: 1)
Prof. Chow was poor. 2) Mitose was known to be a scam
artist promising money to people helping him with his
schemes. 3) Prof. Chow was known to give rank for
money as long as it wasnt in his own personal art.

According to all sources, Prof. Chow was living pretty
much in poverty his whole life. He would, therefore,
give out rank etc. to those that would fly to Hawaii
in exchange for cash. (I got that from Dr. Perrys
introduction in GM Kuohas first volume of Chinese
Kara-Ho Kempo). We also know, according to Doc and
others, that Mitose was always trying to con people
into schemes of one sort or another promising money
etc. Sijo Emperado said that Mitoses book was
published with funds from fellow martial artists who
were promised money in return for their investment
(which they never saw). It would not be at all
unreasonable, therefore, to conclude that Prof. Chow
went along with Mitose and backed him based on some
idea that it would be financially profitable for him
to do so. Eventually he figured it out and
disassociated himself from Mitose. Mitose would
certainly have benefitted from having top-notch
fighters as part of his school. Prof. Chow, would have
had a clean conscience since he apparently didnt
consider it wrong to promote things for money as long
as it wasnt his personal system. This would go a ways
towards explaining how someone like Prof. Chow could
be associated with Mitose.


----------



## kelly keltner

The Kai said:
			
		

> Then don't throw out theories without any proof
> Here's the game -you are trying so very hard to tack a grand ancient history on Kosho or make Mitose into something he is not.
> Don't ram your version of history down everyones throat-Flash all Martial Arts History is a little suspect.  Emperado, well that's his version of events, The KaJu people have a take it or leave it philosophy.  You have your version, there is bound to be conflicts
> Instead spend your time honoring and respecting the real genuis behind your system
> Hanshi Juchnik


 Thoery and conjecture are what are being thrown about by everyone including yourself. So give it a rest. Mitose was who he was, and he did what he did. So you can take it or leave it. What I stated to you was that you know the reasons that were given for why there were pictures in the book. You are correct all martial arts history is suspect depending on your perspective. I'm just wondering what your perspective is. You have been around Kosho and Hanshi long enough to know many of the answers to the questions that are being thrown around this forum. 
kk


----------



## The Kai

Actually I don't know why there were pictures in the book!


----------



## Matt

The Kai said:
			
		

> Actually I don't know why there were pictures in the book!



Well, if there were no pictures, I would not have been able to pick them apart, and might have had to give Mitose some benefit of the doubt, but can now feel entirely confident stating that he was a charlatan. 

Thank goodness for the pictures. 

Matt


----------

