# Any proof?



## Zitterbacke

Hi, it's me again 

Is there any proof for Systema/Ross being an ancient Russian Martial Art which could convince an outsider (that doesn't have the insight a practitioner might have)?
What I often hear is: "No, there is none, since The System was kept secret even from the authorities." - That is a "convincing" argument, isn't it?

Don't get me wrong. I'm a practitioner of Systema and find it very practical.
But there are many martial artists that don't believe in the history of the RMAs.

Greets


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## SonnyPuzikas

And...? Those who seek academic "knowledge"- let it be...
Do the work and results will speak for what true knowledge is... And if you get bothered too much by those looking for "black on white" proof of something...  :btg:


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## Jay Bell

Agreed.  History of RMA makes nice campfire stories....nothing more.


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## NYCRonin

I have to agree...what does it matter, except to history buffs?
Systema practitoners are usually far more concerned with effectiveness than fairy tales or history...many of us have come from arts with wonderful tales of past glories, but living off the strength of a past reputation, and being unable to make it all work today; is an exercise in frustration at best -- and could be very dangerous to ones survival, at worst.
I would not care one whit if Systema did not exist but for Vladimirs or Ryabcos inspiration and experience.
Ya know, if this were true -- and I personally do not think it is -- to me, this is even more of an exciting idea. Being in the System -- at its very birth, being a part of it at such a point in time...is rather a wonderful thing also.

Some view distant lineage as 'proof' of any arts effectiveness. Although i like history -- I  much prefer effectiveness...no matter where or when that effectiveness was born.


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## Zitterbacke

NYCRonin said:
			
		

> Some view distant lineage as 'proof' of any arts effectiveness. Although i like history -- I much prefer effectiveness...no matter where or when that effectiveness was born.


That is a true word. And I think so, too. As I said, _I_ don't have a problem with Systema. But there are others who have. 
I can fully understand their sceptical view. And it is very annoying not to be able to prove Systema's history. (Although nobody practices an art due to its history, does he?)

Greets


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## Jay Bell

> And it is very annoying not to be able to prove Systema's history.



Why does it matter to you?  Meaning...if someone thinks the stories of RMA's history are bunk, why does it bother you?


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## Cruentus

Zitterbacke said:
			
		

> That is a true word. And I think so, too. As I said, _I_ don't have a problem with Systema. But there are others who have.
> I can fully understand their sceptical view. And it is very annoying not to be able to prove Systema's history. (Although nobody practices an art due to its history, does he?)
> 
> Greets



We run into the same problem with FMA...tracing it past the last 100 years.

All you can do is use the historical references that you DO know, and then say, "here is what WE think." Unless they have sources to refute yours...then they really have no arguement.

I think there is value in going to the library and finding historical references to support you hypothesis...as history can give insight to your art, and any martial art is a continueing process of education.

 :asian:


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## howardr

NYCRonin said:
			
		

> I have to agree...what does it matter, except to history buffs?
> 
> I would not care one whit if Systema did not exist but for Vladimirs or Ryabcos inspiration and experience.
> Ya know, if this were true -- and I personally do not think it is -- to me, this is even more of an exciting idea. Being in the System -- at its very birth, being a part of it at such a point in time...is rather a wonderful thing also.



Somebody had to make this stuff up at some point! Whether this is the first generation or the 53rd, what is undeniable is that there had to be a first at some point...I say, "Who cares when that is!"


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## Zitterbacke

howardr said:
			
		

> Somebody had to make this stuff up at some point! Whether this is the first generation or the 53rd, what is undeniable is that there had to be a first at some point...I say, "Who cares when that is!"


That is not the question. The point is, can it be proven that Systema is an ancient martial art by means of historical evidence and not some mixed up aikido/jiujutsu/boxing/taichi whatsoever?
By the way, I wouldn't say that Systema was invented by some*one*, it is more likely that knowledge was transfered from generation to generation which marked a process of evolution due to diverse influences.


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## NYCRonin

Well, I can say clearly, based on my previous m.a. experience - that Systema 'does the work' in a manner unlike any of the arts mentioned. The power generation, the fluidity, the many other factors that 'somehow' have been assembled into a cogruent and cohesive whole - this is very different in manner and expression than any of these arts - and the numerous others that I have been exposed to in my 41 years of martial study. I also cant see it as being the result of any single martial exponent that started from scratch. 

We can discuss the 'legitimate' history of Systema for a long time - and we will have few concrete examples - few solid agreeable conclusions. The Soviets and their program of discounting the national historical art and replacing them with creations generated under Soviet control -- this saw to it that much of the history and value of the peoples protective arts would be lost.  Look at Communist China and the 'Wu-shu' as an olympic sport. If not for the Taiwanese, Hong Kong and other ex-patriates that fled the Communists and settled elsewhere - how much of the Chinese Systems would be lost also.

And other than to the curious and the historian -- does this really matter?

I am sorry but it does not matter to me, personally. I have been part of numerous studies that had colorful, wonderful and scroll verified lines of succession - and although interesting and fullfilling to a certain extent -- they were simply not the 'home' that Systema has become for this writer. I am much more an effective 'real world' survivor than ever before - I find spiritual/emotional/mental value in this 'work' that mostly eluded me elsewhere...and I had good teachers in the other m.a. -- good people - good arts - but they just did not 'touch' my totality like this simple yet complex life way does. This, of course; was probably more due to my 'assemblage point' and should not be viewed as a criticism of those other forms.

I will say - for me - I dont really care anymore about the lineage or the history as much as I do the 'now-ness' of Systema, and the positive changes it has brought to this world weary seeker of the warrior ways. I used to be a historian of other arts I was involved  - now, I am a part of a history as it is being written right now. Past history and forgotten records mean little in 'the real' - and the real is what Systema is really all about. Yes, while it might be cool to trace an unbroken list of 'masters' going back to Ivan the Terrible -- that aint gonna happen, ever. 

No, the legendary Illya Muromits did not start this art. Maybe Systema is a pure Ryabco creation -- maybe Vlad is truly the only real and creative cohereant force behind Systema as we know it in N. America. Dont know - dont care. At least there is no member of the some non- verifyable and legendary mystical creator that we all must bow to at every session. 

Lacking such -- and it is hardly a lack at all - we are empowered by the 'nowness' of the arts growth and development....any 'tradition' we have is a 'living' one. If I had to choose between an ancient history and set techniques - and the free progression of the arts present expression - I choose the later. I have done the 'historical' and the 'now' is so much more involving and exciting..and interesting, at least to me.


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## Zitterbacke

NYCRonin, I highly respect your opinion, since your experience in martial arts is almost twice my age. :asian: 
And as I wrote before, it is not me that needs to be convinced but that I can truly understand sceptics that have no insight in Systema.


			
				NYCRonin said:
			
		

> No, the legendary Illya Muromits did not start this art. Maybe Systema is a pure Ryabco creation -- maybe Vlad is truly the only real and creative cohereant force behind Systema as we know it in N. America.


Anyway, if history was based on a lie, not only me would be disappointed but I would offer myself as Systema's new marketing manager immediately :uhyeah:


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## Don Roley

NYCRonin said:
			
		

> I have to agree...what does it matter, except to history buffs?



I have to disagree. I think that the matter of trust is important. So the question should be, is all the people involved in teaching Systema, etc being truthfull.

Here is my opinions on the subject. I do not practice Systema, but have worked out with a couple of guys in Japan who practice it. One of them is an ex- Bujinkan member.

I voiced my concerns over the history to this guy and he came back a while later and told me that it was either Vasilov or his teacher that said that he had been told the history as he passed it along and in the military conditions he was in, he could not question what he was being told. He did not even think to question it. It was not really something he was concerned about. He is just saying what he had been told.

I can accept that. At the same time, I do not believe that Systema precedes the 20th century. If you look at the history of Sambo you find that the Soviets created it based mainly on Kodokan Judo. But in an effort to raise nationalism they created a false history of the art as a Russian one. They went so far as to kill one of the creators of Sambo to keep him quiet.

With that as a background, I find it hard to believe without supporting evidence that Systema existed before the Soviets. Most likely it was created by them like Sambo. Those that came later accepted the lie and thought it the truth.

So, what Vasilov, etc are teaching is the truth as they know it. They are not trying to lie. They are being totally honest and not hyping their art with things they know to be lies.

_That_ is the important thing in my book.


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## Furtry

What the Soviets did is synergies Systema. All MAs are affected by culture and geography, as was Systema.
A grand father of one of my students looked at a class and said, "This is the mountain fighting we used to do as kids. What do you, city dwellers, know of mountain fighting?" He, the grandfather, is a Serb.
I, as a kid, used to go to festivals with my Grandpa to watch fisticuffs fights involving 30 to 50 men. The fight went on till one man was standing. That was 1974-1977 in Chipili Byelorussia. Grandpa told me the festival is hundreds of years old.
As NYCRonin said, Systema is very much a modern MA, but it is NOT a lie based on some one elses history. It is an evolvement of mans physical, psychological and spiritual abilities and understanding.
Unlike the rest of the "traditional MAs" we strive to evolve and this does not illegitimatize our history.


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## TAZ

All arts come from somewhere..not all arts are going somehwere...

Marital history is obscured by time and agenda's....The system has a history like any other art,,choose to believe what you are told or not..doesn't really matter. The legitamcy of the art for me is that the main exponents teaching this art can hand my *** back to me whenever they like in ways so subtle I often don't realise I am holding my on *** until its too late!!!.

Seriously though...if the history of the art bothers you, the system is robably not for you...we don't have nice whie suits or belts either....


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## NYCRonin

I regret if I gave anyone any indication that I believe that "Systema" - as we practice it today - is naything like a martial art that can be traced back just 150 years. Also, I know that Vasilieve has stated very clearly that 'The System' was a refinement of a compilation of 'traditional' Russian martial methods. I personally do not believe that present Systema existed before the Soviets -- but there are some still surviving 'traditional' 'mountain fighting et al. types -- and I can see some bits of Systema movement in some of them.

I also know that Vlad, being taught this as a military man - would do what I beleive most of us would do under the circumastances - "This is what I was taught...and this is what I teach". I would agree with D. Roley on this point.

The art does have ties to the Russian past before the Soviets though, it seems to me....but that does not really matter to me either. Though Russian in origin, I feel that the art is a 'gift to humanity' -- much like Hatsumi has said about BJK. These arts have a national origin, and some form of history linked to its originating home. yet, a 'living' martial method - in the 'shrinking world' of today - spreads, grows and evolves beyond just the borders or 'nationality' of the source. In this sense -- as a warrior way of self protection and growth....such methods MUST live in the greater world of all mankind.

Vlad teaches the russian martial art he was taught. He is Russian, so also his teachers. Learned in Russia, taught in Russia -- born of Russia. He passes along the 'history' as he was taught it...as does any teacher of any art. The historical researcher might say the claims are false - thats ok. All Vlad - or any of us does - is pass along what we were taught. Same for all arts. 

In this art - there are really very few that are concerned with such things - to be expected from a method without belts, forms or rituals....it is the 'doing' that is more important that the 'who did what - once upon a time' - thats what keeps us involved..and insures the further growth and refinement of Systema.  There will never be some ancient scroll or tapestry discovered depicting 'movement' as we do it now -- there are videos and DVDs of the 'now' though. Of the two - tapestry/tape or scroll/DVD -- I get more out of the latter of the two of each of the examples. I leave the historical concerns to those concerned with it....I am much too busy living The System...now!


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## Zitterbacke

An interesting article was published on AikidoJournal a while ago that brings some information on this topic:
http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=597


By the way, do you also think the shirt doesn't suit MR? :ultracool


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## Don Roley

My opinion of Systema _dropped_ several points after reading that article.

I have maintained that Vladimir Vasilov was transmitting what he believed to be the truth to the best of his ability. His comment about "dark forces" trying to stop Systema from being more broadly taught in Russia now places him in the same catagory as those that talk about the internatinal Illuminati.

And the following just made me lose a lot of respect for Systema,



> To speak a little more about warriors, emperors in China and Japan had Russian bodyguards around them for about six hundred years. Many Chinese martial arts masters said that they learned their arts from the bodyguards of the emperor, but they do not mention who those bodyguards were.
> 
> snip
> 
> Some people may not like to hear such things and there will be many arguments about these points. You understand, why? I will tell you the truth, of course, but I have said these things a number of times in interviews, but they do not usually make it into print. People often prefer to listen to lies rather than to the truth. Sometimes a lot of money is involved.



So where is the proof that Russians were the bodyguards of Chinese and Japanese emporers?  No one noticed a bunch of long nosed round eyes in close proximity to the titular head of their countries? The bovine feces level of this statement is the same as that we hear from Ashida Kim! And when people start talking about others promoting lies for monetary gain without being able to show even a little bit of proof my alarms go off.

So, again, where is the proof? My loyalties just turned 180 degrees on the matter. I came in trying to defend Systema, now I tend to think of them in the same light as Ashida Kim and such.


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## Zitterbacke

Don Roley said:
			
		

> So where is the proof that Russians were the bodyguards of Chinese and Japanese emporers? No one noticed a bunch of long nosed round eyes in close proximity to the titular head of their countries? The bovine feces level of this statement is the same as that we hear from Ashida Kim! And when people start talking about others promoting lies for monetary gain without being able to show even a little bit of proof my alarms go off.
> 
> So, again, where is the proof? My loyalties just turned 180 degrees on the matter. I came in trying to defend Systema, now I tend to think of them in the same light as Ashida Kim and such.


To TAZ, Jay Bell, Sonny Puzikas, NYCRonin:
Do you understand why history matters? A basic principle should be, that if you claim something, you should be able to proof it. Otherwise you make yourself _and_ your art untrustworthy. From a strategic point of view it is some kind of clumsy to profess sth. before you got any proof. In addition it becomes obvious that Systema wasn't practised officially in the special forces which means that it was never officially acknowledged (which is a major difference to "kept secret" as I remember) and it therefore explains why so many people have never heard of it.

You are right, this doesn't take away Systemas effectiveness but it doesn't help at all.


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## TwistofFat

I do not know much about Systema other than working out with those who train in it.  I have been in EPAK for about 10 years and can say these guys are solid.

If they like something you do, they tweak, practice and use it.  The school I visited in NC made no claims on any lineage they just invite you onto the floor and see what you know.  One of my past instructors thought an angel followed him around (and he often spoke to him aloud).  He was a solid MA - My point is if someone says something odd or unproven - it does not discount the experience.

Regards - Glenn.


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## Jay Bell

> Do you understand why history matters? A basic principle should be, that if you claim something, you should be able to proof it. Otherwise you make yourself and your art untrustworthy. From a strategic point of view it is some kind of clumsy to profess sth. before you got any proof. In addition it becomes obvious that Systema wasn't practised officially in the special forces which means that it was never officially acknowledged (which is a major difference to "kept secret" as I remember) and it therefore explains why so many people have never heard of it.
> 
> You are right, this doesn't take away Systemas effectiveness but it doesn't help at all.



Sure.  Maybe this approach can help a bit..

Systema, as it is practiced today, is a Soviet creation.  The roots of what came to be Systema may date back to the ROC warriors and defenders, but the end result was created within the Soviet military.

As a side note...Don, my heart sank after reading that interview.  Just left me wishing I never would have read it.  Not only has your opinion 180'd, so has the story of our history and roots...  ROC seems to have become quite the thick fog in such matters.

I remember a time where the history and roots were pretty cut and dry.  Suddenly, the church and God talk seems to have swallowed those up.  Too bad really..  Ivanov being side-stepped now...when he was credited with so much in the Russian Health System.  What a shame...

Bah...let the floodgates open


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## Furtry

Usually when some one is kicking my *** I don't concern myself with the history of how he's doing it  .
Oh, on a personal level, I think that the history of some of the most popular MAs is a bunch of bovine manure also but I don't go around dissing the art or its practitioners. :asian:


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## Mark Jakabcsin

Over on the Aikido Journal forum there is a small discussion on this topic. One gentleman posted some interesting links. You can find these in the Systema section of the forum.

mark j.


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## Kenpodoc

Most martial arts history is full of conjecture, grandiosity and outright fabrication.  In fact most popular history suffers from the same problem.  The real question is can these guys fight?  In my experience they can and they have much to offer not just as "The System" but also in teaching training methods which can be applied to other fighting systems. Michael (?sp)  is a product of the Soviet system famed for its lack of concern about the truth in the history it taught.  I've never had the pleasure of meeting him, but the students of Vladamir that I have met have been remarkable.  The real truth lies in the System and not in the History.

Respectfully,

Jeff


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## NYCRonin

Don
  I read that article but know the man who was interviewed also. As a person who seems so interested in accuracy -- let me start with the obvious...its 'Vasilieve', not 'Vasilov'.
   Next, if I am correct -- you are of the bu-jin liniage...one I have a small but enjoyable experience with. Sir, I must ask - Do you really believe all that the venerable M. Hatsumi has stated as 'historical fact' about this art? (I appologize if I am incorrect in my statement about your bujin affiliation). Some of the great teacher and friend I know as 'Hatsumi - san' is verafiable...but then again, some is not. To me - that does not matter. What really matters to me, as a pragmatic student of the way - is the fact that he was able to suddenly deal with an untelegraphed straight right sucker punch (thrown full force as he was talking to Taro Yoshikawa, by myself - a multiple B.Belt holder in his late 20's, back then -- (82, Ohio - I think) --) and toss all 170 (then) lbs of me into the air without missing a word of his converstaion.

ONLY ONE OTHER EXPONENT OF ANY MARTIAL SYSTEM HAS EVER DONE SO TO ME! (Though I am no longer as brash as I was then...nor as egotistically stupid).

And that 'one' was Valdimir VASILIEVE.
And he, like Hatsumi-san; is entitled to his recounting of history...regardless of the 'hard facts' that may be lacking -- at least to me.

That mentioned article contained some points I might not agree with -- and guess what? Vlad, nor Michail; require that I kowtow and agree with them. I am free to make up my own mind. As I am free also to allow them this freedom. 

I do not believe in the story that 'tengu' taught Uyeshiba the art of Aikido sword -- nor do I believe that any tattooed talisman of an arnisador insures his safety in combat. I do not believe either that any Ba-Gua system was passed on by any of the Taoist immortals....nor do I believe that by being a member of the ROC grants any special insight into the essence of 'the work' of Systema.

History - a wonderful subject. Claimed martial arts history is always much less important than the pragmatic real world skill any art seeks to deliver to any student. Though quoting B. Lee is often the bane of a supossedly 'experienced' martial way-ist - "The living and creating individual is always more important than any estabished style" -- and that goes for any claimed 'history' as well. Mandalas are nice - informative, pretty - but the understanding of them is far less important, to me; than what any exponent can actually do when faced with a violent attack. 

Only if the given methodology can get the exponent safely home each evening - can that person spend the time debating the verifyable facts of history. Nin-po, by my experience (like JKD, Savate, Muay Thai, Moo Duk Kwan, Wing Chun, Shoto Kan -- and a few others personally studied) - can get one home safely. I choose to leave the unverifyable to the debating historians -- and dont concern myself with if a nun name Mg Mui was inspired to create Wing Chun by a dream. 

There, we can play the role of 'historian' and debate until all the candles burn out. 

Ultimately, for me - it is all about getting home -- and the history of the road that I use is not all that important. All that road needs is to be solid and usefull...and The System is such a 'way' for this writer.

I have said all I presently care to add -- I will leave it to the historians now, and will enjoy any debate they call up amongst themselves. 

May it be well with you, my friends...This one is home.


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## Pervaz

Furtry lol - I like it

Jay - I'm surprised you say that - MK only mentions ROC as an answer to a question - he mentions the commandments becuase he was asked the question regarding which commandments he follows.  

Don - I believe Soke is not part of the Koryo either - does that mean what he practices and teaches is not good ?  

I think Rob summed it up perfectly - Just want to get home !

ZB - What wrong with MR jumper - I'm goin to ask him where he got it (we're about the same size so I might borrow his lol)

Pervaz


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## Don Roley

NYC Ronin,
With me it is a case of a person being as honest as they can. If they are merely passing along the truth as best they can, then I am satisfied with it even if I do not believe what they say.

For example, Moriehei Ueshiba _did not_ claim to have learned kenjutsu from tengu AFAIK, but there are arts that go back a few hundred years that say their founders did. I do not beleive in tengu but realize that stories change, embelleshments are added, etc. If Ueshiba had made such a claim, my opinion would change a lot since as a man living in the 20th century and being the one doing the training I would have to say he was either insane or a liar.

But as long as a person is just passing along what he heard as honestly as he can, then I can respect that. In Japan, not contridicting your teacher is a big thing so we can see that even in the 21st century the Yoshikawa family still maintain that the founder of the Kashima Shinto ryu received a scroll of strategy from the ghost of Minamoto Yoshitsune. I do not beleive it, nor do I think they do either. But they owe it to their forefathers to try to pass along the story as best they can without change.

What cases me concern is the claims being made in the article along the lines that Chinese and Japanese emporers had Russian bodyguards. That is not something I can write off as being just something that is being passed along. There is some very hard evidence that it is not true and yet they are trying to convince others of it. If the story was about his teacher's teacher defeating a tiger, that is just a story he heard and is passing along even if there is no proof that it happened- only talked about to him. But the idea of the bodyguards is a seperate matter altogether.

I do not believe every legend I hear, but I would not train under someone I thought was making up stuff to try to fool me. The stuff in that article makes me think that the latter case is happening. This is very disapointing since I have friends who I train with who do systema and I enjoy the training very much and think it is a very effective system. However, I do not think I am a combat expert who can tell with complete certainty what will really work in real, life or death combat and so I rely a lot of the trust level I can place in the teacher. That is why I was so let down by the article.


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## Furtry

Don, some people showed proof of the bodyguard claims. Now you need to show your proof discrediting said claims.

Trust not the System nor the teacher but your self, because you'll be the one dead while the System lives on.

Lastly, as I have the original interview on tape and am a native Russian, MR stated that
Im telling the truth in the context of what he was taught and what he had learned through his personal independent investigations/studies.

I too now go on to train and will not bother with the sifting of bovine manure any further.


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## Don Roley

Furtry said:
			
		

> Don, some people showed proof of the bodyguard claims. Now you need to show your proof discrediting said claims.



So where is this proof that the emporers of Japan and China had Russian bodyguards?


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## Furtry

Don Roley said:
			
		

> So where is this proof that the emporers of Japan and China had Russian bodyguards?


http://www.aikidojournal.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6361
The same place where the interview was published.


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## Jay Bell

> Jay - I'm surprised you say that - MK only mentions ROC as an answer to a question - he mentions the commandments becuase he was asked the question regarding which commandments he follows.



It has been mentioned on other forums that without being part of ROC, high level understanding of the System is not possible.  We were told for years of Ivanov's contributions to the Russian Health System, to now have it retracted as though he had no part.  Not to say that this isn't true, but which is the correct part of it?

Ever since things were "laid out" for us, I've had issues with the Ivanov situation.  It seemed just as soon as the ROC explained that his teachings were "evil" that Systema followed suit and turned their backs on what he had to say.


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## NYCRonin

Don - I understand your point of view...to me, in certain things we are in agreement. The whole bodyguard thing is, from my oint of view; coming from a man who is repeating what he was taught by his teachers...and not just making it up as he goes along....for if I beleived he was - I also would be disappointed in his desire to do so -- regardless of his physical mastery.

I do know, for a fact; that the 'translation' of any language is often at the mercy of the the translators skills. I have had students that are native Russians -- and have attended training with MR, alongside with me. The translator at times did his job -- BUT -- my student felt there was a certain different 'point' being expressed. Even saw that back with Hatsumi in Ohio back in '82.
Since I dont speak Japanese or Russian -- I rely on the translators skills - or lack of them -- to get the flavor of the spoken words any teacher expresses.

Jay -- I also was quite surprised at the newer bent to the teachings of Ivan Porfiry and how it was regarded in that interview. Dousing, for example is, as mentioned; an old world thing predating Ivan by centuries...and one not limited to the Russian culture, as Japanese 'kan-geiko' proves.
Since I only recently read that interview, I have had no chance to ask Vlad about his point of view....and truthfully, Vlad is his own person and does not necessarily reflect all the things that his teacher might state....and thats Ok by Misha...as is my non-ROC personal beliefs is OK with Vlad.

The ROC tie to Systema is very much an individual thing. It is not required...and has yet to be 'pushed' on me -- and my teaching certificate in The System is signed by both VV and MR. There is though a certain part of the systema community that is ROC -- and they do like that link to their teachers...and there is some smal degree of pride they take in this link.

This 'being like the teacher' link is not uncommon in martial arts at all...I have encountered it many, many times before. I have even known some members to convert to another religion in their journey to understand and fit in with whatever the teacher follows. I neither judge them nor fault them. To each his own. The fact is that MR is VERY much of the ROC -- and expresses his life-views by this language -- is fine by me. So, I look into that language - as i have done with spanish, japanese, chinese, korean and french -- hell, even the language of the Brooklyn street...and find what is relevant to my journey and 'warrior path'. This has served me well, in my studies of things martial and in life as well.

Don and Jay -- I cant give any answers to certain questions best asked of the gentlemen mentioned....these are best asked one on one. I only offer my personal understanding -- and that is all it is -- MY understanding. I assure you though -- I have never been in the smallest way been made to feel that I must worship at any particular altar nor agree with any viewpoints or historical referenceses made by my friends and guides in Systema. I cannot say that about some other things that I studied 'along The Way' though. I do not feel I have been 'shut out' because I am regarded a 'heathen' by them..they have always been most friendly and open with sharing what I can absorb.

I am entitled to my beliefs, as they are to theirs...as you are entitled to yours. Thats just 'The Way' it is.


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## jellyman

> So where is the proof that Russians were the bodyguards of Chinese and Japanese emporers?



http://www.cnewa.org/ecc-china.htm

http://www2.gol.com/users/ocj/TheOrthodoxChurchinJapan.htm

http://www.time.com/time/asia/magazine/article/0,13673,501020624-263046,00.html

some corroborating evidence above.

This makes a lot more sense when you consider that there are no geographical barriers between Europe and Asia, and Russia/USSR is that grey area in the middle.

You need to be ROC to understand 'higher' systema? I'd like to see a direct quote of that. I find it hard to reconcile with the fact that none of the guys (except for maybe 1 or 2) who teaches at Club Vlad is ROC per se. In fact, many if not most of his best students aren't even Russian! What do they have that most people don't? About 10 years of constant spartan training and dedication under VV's direct tutelage might have something to do with it, I think. Call me a conspiracy theorist. Or there's Jim King who went to EVERY SINGLE CLASS FOR 4 YEARS STRAIGHT. Not Russian, not ROC, not even sure he's religous, but his systema is pretty durn good.

Regards the ROC and systema - the breathing methods used are apparently from monastic prayer technique used by monks who follow a school of thought called Hesychasm. Certainly independent sources show that ROC moinks have these breathing techniques - some suggest they have some link with more Eastern/Asian breathing techs, but this is just a hypothesis. The breathing techniques are very useful, and at a certain level essential. And the ROC has a long and documented relationship wih Russia and especially its military.

If you really want, I can dig up more links, but why not do your own research? you can research "Hesychasm", you can research the ROC and the military, and you can research 'Saint Demetrius' (patron saint of Russia).

If you learn something you didn't know before, that's okay. Russian history is an enigma to most people, including a lot of Russians.


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## Clive

This System was used by Stalins personal bodyguards, what better recomendation can you think of? As for proof, what do you mean by proof, just because some guy sat and drew a picture of a bird or wrote on a scroll in beautiful letters, what does this prove? A lot of the skills were derived from experience in battle, village tournaments (see mass attacking) and military based learning, as far as I am aware there is no direct timeline that you see in other arts but more a collaboration of ideas, skills and knowledge. It has already been stated that a lot of this stuff had to be kept secret due to the powers of those times supressing art and was therefore passed through word of mouth within family and close knit groups. There is nothing conspiritorial or mysterious about these circumstances.  :idunno:


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## milosmalic

Furtry said:
			
		

> .. He, the grandfather, is a Serb.


And now we Serbs train Systema as a national passtime 

I must admit that somehow we tend to shoot rather then wrestle or fist fight. Matter of progress.

I am joking of course. There is a lot of proof related to roots and origins of activities we today know as Systema, in the folk fighting styles and dances of all Slavic people. Naturally, using it in urban environment, war or confined space instead of mountain changed it a bit. But not in the fundament, only as improvement for modern using.


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## Krowley

just happened upon this thread while surfing through the posts, and i had a comment...  I spent a day training with some european broadsword and shield fighters... these are re-enactor types, and i'm not sure how historicly legit their movements are, but they are supposedly based on the genuine methods used in the old days... when i first saw clips of systema, my immediate reaction was that it reminded me of the methods of sword and shield fighting that i saw that day.    The teacher showed us how to swing the sword with a whip-like motion so that we could swing around behind the opponents shield. Relaxation was considered paramount, because in the midst of a battle fatigue was a big issue in this kind of fighting. The arm was kept completly relaxed , and you used your hips to generate rotation in the shoulder... We were also taught how to throw deceptive strikes, by drawing our hands up above our heads, and then swinging our arms around in an odd manner so that the strike landed near the knees. The person would flinch and raise their shield thinking they were about to get hit in the head and then the strike would go towards the ground. this resulted in some very odd and deceptive looking striking angles, but they were very powerfull.   there were no actual techniques taught, just a few tricks and principles of swinging the blade properly and you worked everything else out through sparring.    I have since seen videos of people that supposedly train in genuine medieval european sword methods, and they seem to use the same kinds of motions. My immediate reaction when first seeing systema was that it had to be related in some way to these kinds of methods.. The strikes in particular seem similair.


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