# Kenpo Blade Work



## MJS (Mar 19, 2006)

I know that we've had some interesting discussion on many of the empty hand techniques. The way that they are written, should certainly not mean that modifications may need to be put in place in order for the best results to be attained. 

So, my question is: Looking at the knife techniques in the Kenpo system, I'd be interested in hearing everyones thoughts on them. Looking at some of the knife inflicted wounds from this post:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31868

****WARNING- GRAPHIC CONTENT****

it certainly makes one want to be as cautious as possible when confronting someone with a blade. 

So, at this time I'd like to open this thread up to the discussion of the blade techniques. Do any modifications need to be made, or are they fine the way they are?

Mike


----------



## bushidomartialarts (Mar 19, 2006)

the chief problem with our kenpo blade techniques is that they're different from our defenses against open-hand attacks.

a skilled knife weilder will make the first cut before you realize you have a knife -- we need to react to the attacking motion without losing a quarter-second figuring out what we're being attacked with.

a second problem is that they avoid the first step in true defense against a knife:  running.  knife self-defense should be learned at the track, not at the dojo.


----------



## still learning (Mar 19, 2006)

Hello, Doesn't everyone says "Run First", when possible. Because in a knife fight you will always get cut? 

If you have to fight/defend...use shoes,belt,jacket or anything around you for a weapon to fight back with! Grab something...anything~!

Always have your outer arms facing out with palms facing you! It the knife attacker tries to cut you, he will not cut the veins.

and always use TWO HANDS to hold on to the knife hand and use the rest of your body to strike with! If you can grab and hold on!
don;t be fool with your everyday techiques in class....in the real world things will happen FAST, the adrenline,fear factor,heart pumping, the darkness...so on... 

IN class NO one trains against a real attacter and a real blade! and every knife fighter will be different, some more experience,some slashers, and so on...

These are my thoughts..........never been in a real knife attack....so I could be wrong here............Aloha


----------



## Doc (Mar 19, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> I know that we've had some interesting discussion on many of the empty hand techniques. The way that they are written, should certainly not mean that modifications may need to be put in place in order for the best results to be attained.
> 
> So, my question is: Looking at the knife techniques in the Kenpo system, I'd be interested in hearing everyones thoughts on them. Looking at some of the knife inflicted wounds from this post:
> 
> ...


The knife techniques in the commercial system are "suspect" in reality.

The circumstances of the U.S. Marshal out of Texas shows what happens when you fail to recognize a suspect is armed, are attacked, and then attempt to run away. No further information is available to the public on the incident.


----------



## Atlanta-Kenpo (Mar 19, 2006)

I have been studying Pekiti-Tirsia under Zach Whitson and a blend of FMA, Systems and Chinease knife arts from Al McLucki for the past few years now.  It has ben my thinking that the EPAK knive techniques would get you seriously hurt if the person whom you were fighting had any knife training.  However, I had the pleasure of attending a seminar with Lee Wedlake yesterday and one of the topics was knife techniques.  He really opened my eyes about how they could work and how some of the gun and stick techniques can be used as a knife defense.

BTW (Doc he said to say hello).


----------



## Touch Of Death (Mar 19, 2006)

Because blades are aggressive by nature, you should adhere to the order of 'create distance then stabilize your base'; however becoming rooted against a knife attack may not be such a great idea. If you have a knife it can cut and kill no wheather or not your heel is up or down; speed of action is key.
Sean


----------



## kenposikh (Mar 20, 2006)

Basically if you face someone with a knife and they know how to use it then you're going to get cut and possibly killed, if they don't know how to use it then you may get cut and possibly killed.

If you also have a knife then you have a 1 in three chance of living, because they either kill you, you both kill each other or you kill him.

Not very good odds in my opinion.

Amrik


----------



## kenpoworks (Mar 20, 2006)

Doc said.."The knife techniques in the commercial system are "suspect" in reality"...........I "suspect" he knows what he is talking about


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 20, 2006)

kenpoworks said:
			
		

> Doc said.."The knife techniques in the commercial system are "suspect" in reality"...........I "suspect" he knows what he is talking about


 
I don't know the commercial EPAK system, but I do know the Tracy system.  I don't know how the techniques differ in EPAK, but the knife defenses in Tracys are pretty poor for the most part.  I don't think you need to be as experienced as DOC to recognize a poor technique when you see one.


----------



## Doc (Mar 20, 2006)

Atlanta-Kenpo said:
			
		

> I have been studying Pekiti-Tirsia under Zach Whitson and a blend of FMA, Systems and Chinease knife arts from Al McLucki for the past few years now.  It has ben my thinking that the EPAK knive techniques would get you seriously hurt if the person whom you were fighting had any knife training.  However, I had the pleasure of attending a seminar with Lee Wedlake yesterday and one of the topics was knife techniques.  He really opened my eyes about how they could work and how some of the gun and stick techniques can be used as a knife defense.
> 
> BTW (Doc he said to say hello).


Thanks much. Lee, always a classy guy. Backathim.


----------



## Doc (Mar 20, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> I don't know the commercial EPAK system, but I do know the Tracy system.  I don't know how the techniques differ in EPAK, but the knife defenses in Tracys are pretty poor for the most part.  I don't think you need to be as experienced as DOC to recognize a poor technique when you see one.


I agree totally. It goes back to the common sense that some abandon when some guy with a belt on starts teaching you how to survive, when he's never had to.  

But that's the bad news. The good news is 'knife fights' are statistically non existent on the street of the U.S. According to the latest available FBI Stats, the prevailing attack 'on the street' with a blade is the 'Jim Carrey skit,' over the head, downward plunging, movie version. This hasn't changed since Mr. Parker looked at the stats back in the seventies.

The statistically miniscule assaults that are left are normally a knife used to either intimidate, or to launch a surreptitious attack where the attacker will not announce the attack. Often they come from behind from a smaller attacker against a larger individual. Additionally, the 'slashing' type blade action seen in movies does indeed exist, however this action is normally done DEFENSIVELY to keep someone away from them.

The knife fight scenario where two guys square off with knives is an invention of the movies. Law enforcement agencies generally do not even teach hand to hand defenses against blades, opting for firearms defense, and retention.

Keep in mind that for countries that prohibit handgun ownership, knife assaults are much higher, but oddly enough statistically relative to the population, there is little difference. Here in the U.S. where there are regions where handguns are prohibited, there is no positive difference is the use of handgun assaults, and no difference in knife attacks.


----------



## arnisador (Mar 20, 2006)

There are links here to stories about sword and knife usage in Australia. For example:

"But the Australian Bureau of Statistics says knives are still used in 28 per cent of homicides and 32 per cent of attempted murders, compared with firearms, which figure in 13 per cent of killings."


----------



## still learning (Mar 20, 2006)

Hello, The nice thing about your knife defense is?  ...in a real attack by a person with a knife....you will find out quickly what works?  ....do you trust your training?

If you come back and can share great?  ....if not we learn from your mistakes.


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 20, 2006)

Doc said:
			
		

> I agree totally. It goes back to the common sense that some abandon when some guy with a belt on starts teaching you how to survive, when he's never had to.


 
I think it is easy for many people to hold what they are taught as sacred and holy and untouchable.  What we need to remember is that it was all just made up by someone once upon a time.  The person who made it up was intelligent and skilled, but not divine.  There is no reason why the things we are taught cannot be changed or even abandoned, if it makes sense to change or abandon them.


----------



## Doc (Mar 20, 2006)

arnisador said:
			
		

> There are links here to stories about sword and knife usage in Australia. For example:
> 
> "But the Australian Bureau of Statistics says knives are still used in 28 per cent of homicides and 32 per cent of attempted murders, compared with firearms, which figure in 13 per cent of killings."


Absolutely correct sir. The elimination of handguns doesn't seem to make a significant impact on serious assaults or homicides. It seems those who would kill, will always find an impliment to help them fulfill their goal.


----------



## MJS (Mar 20, 2006)

Great posts so far! 

My intention was to discuss certain knife techniques, picking them apart, to see if they'd work as is, or what mods. would need to be made to them.

Raining Lance, Thrusting Lance and Glancing Lance are a few that I figure we could open for discussion.  

Doc, I know that you said that the techs. are 'suspect' in reality.  Going on the 3 that I've listed, what would you suggest?  Another thing we can look at is, what is the possibility that we're going to be facing a trained person vs. the average Joe thug, that may attack us with a blade?  I'm sure that in you LEO career, you've probably seen the sort of attack/person that we're most likely to see.

Mike


----------



## Doc (Mar 20, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> Great posts so far!
> 
> My intention was to discuss certain knife techniques, picking them apart, to see if they'd work as is, or what mods. would need to be made to them.
> 
> Raining Lance, Thrusting Lance and Glancing Lance are a few that I figure we could open for discussion.


There's no way you can discuss the mechanics of something this scerious in a posting. And I'm fairly sure my understanding of those techniques is different.


> Doc, I know that you said that the techs. are 'suspect' in reality.  Going on the 3 that I've listed, what would you suggest?


First, going back to my previous postings, what are the likelyhood of the attacks. "Raining Lance" yes, the others not likely. It is more likely you will be stabbed in the back than attacked with a thrusting blade head up.


> Another thing we can look at is, what is the possibility that we're going to be facing a trained person vs. the average Joe thug, that may attack us with a blade?


"Trained" blade fighters are the ones that slide up behind you and kill you. You won't even see it coming. IF you're attacked by a knife by joe blow, he'll either slash defensively to keep you away, or downward plunge ala "Raining Lance."


> I'm sure that in you LEO career, you've probably seen the sort of attack/person that we're most likely to see.


Growing up in South Central Los Angeles, thirty years in the field in the roughest neighborHOODS in the country, as a uniformed police officer, protective services agent, serving warrants and apprehending wanted felons; I have only had a knife pulled on me once, and he hoped to intimidate me to stay away from him. He was wrong, brought a knife to a gunfight and was taken into custody.

Truth is the chances of being assaulted with a knife are almost non-existent. In fact, the chances of getting into a fist fight are pretty rare in this country. That's what allows all these martial arts schools to thrive, and all these people to wear those stripes. Percentage wise, few ever really get tested.  True you are more likely in some places than others, but I found growing up I had way more fist fights with my brothers than I did strangers.


----------



## MJS (Mar 20, 2006)

Doc said:
			
		

> There's no way you can discuss the mechanics of something this scerious in a posting. And I'm fairly sure my understanding of those techniques is different.


 
Yes, I certainly realize that it is hard to type and at the same time, hope that the person on the other end reading, is going to comprehend what is being said.  However, whats the purpose of having a discussion forum then?  I realize that hands on is the best example, but isn't it possible to discuss the movements of the techniques, as they're written to see what can be improved, left alone, etc?

Mike


----------



## Carol (Mar 20, 2006)

Insert Nike-Jutsu kata here 

EDIT:  Great to see you on this side of the house, Arnisador.  Please don't be a stranger, you have been missed.


----------



## Doc (Mar 20, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> Yes, I certainly realize that it is hard to type and at the same time, hope that the person on the other end reading, is going to comprehend what is being said.  However, whats the purpose of having a discussion forum then?  I realize that hands on is the best example, but isn't it possible to discuss the movements of the techniques, as they're written to see what can be improved, left alone, etc?
> 
> Mike


OK, go ahead.


----------



## MJS (Mar 20, 2006)

Doc said:
			
		

> OK, go ahead.


 
Well, as I said, I'm looking for feedback.

http://kenpotalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10701&postcount=1

http://kenpotalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1193

We can start with this.

Mike


----------



## Doc (Mar 20, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> Well, as I said, I'm looking for feedback.
> 
> http://kenpotalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10701&postcount=1
> 
> ...


From my perspective sir, you need to ask a specific question. I've already addressed the generalities as I see them.


----------



## MJS (Mar 20, 2006)

Doc said:
			
		

> From my perspective sir, you need to ask a specific question. I've already addressed the generalities as I see them.


 
I believe that I asked my question in my first post.  I've seen some good replies, but as I said, I'm looking specifically, for the discussion on the Kenpo knife techniques.  

I posted 2 links to 2 techniques.  I'm hoping that we can start there.

Mike


----------



## kenpoworks (Mar 21, 2006)

Doc said:
			
		

> The knife fight scenario where two guys square off with knives is an invention of the movies. quote]
> 
> or someone who has created the ultimate "Knife Fighting Course", which has been developed for when you find yourself in that "sticky spot" armed with only a leatherman (out of its holster opened and ready) you are forced to defend against a balisong, machette or Bowey Knife waving crew of trained (they have taken the course already)bad guys......
> 
> ...


----------



## JamesB (Mar 21, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> Well, as I said, I'm looking for feedback.
> 
> http://kenpotalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10701&postcount=1
> 
> ...


 
I'll have a go with 'glancing lance' as described in your second link. Assume for the moment that this attack is likely to happen (I can't comment on this but see Doc's response in this same thread).



			
				RobBroad said:
			
		

> 1. An attacker at 12 o'clock comes at you with a right shuffling knife thrust.
> 
> 2. Step your right foot to 7:30 into a left neutral bow as you get out of the line of attacker.


 
I would say that stepping off 'center-line' is fairly critical in this technique, if not the most important part. However of all the technique-writeups that I have seen on this technique, none have actually addressed how one should transition into the left-neutral-bow. 

As written, a 'step back' to 7.30 is actually a 'step around' and in my opinion is not a very efficient way to get to that position. More detail should be present on specific foot-work that would allow one to transition safely out of the way.

I would also question whether a left-neutral-bow would be the most desirable stance to transition to...a push-drag backwards into a forward-bow would be faster and allow you to react quicker to the attack. comments anyone?



			
				RobBroad said:
			
		

> (2. continued) Execute a right outward hand sword to the outside of your attacker's right wrist. Immediately after you strike the right wrist, seize the wrist and execute a left palm strike to the outside of your attacker's right elbow.


 
The next problem I see with the technique is how to execute the right-outward-handsword. The way I see it, your right hand must first come across your own centerline, contouring your body as you 'step back' - in an outward parrying motion to ensure that you have a limb inbetween the knife and your body. Once the right arm has been brought into the correct posture the hand-sword/grab can be executed.

The problem I see with this, is that your right arm has to first travel *under* the path of the knife thrust, as you are starting to execute the parry/handsword. Don't know why, but this doesn't seem like the best course of action to me. I think I'd prefer an attack from above (to the top of the attacker's arm).  An attack from above would make more sense to me, as it would be likely that you would have your arms in the air anyway, in a defensive posture.

I see this first 'phase' of the technique to be the most important, with the rest of the technique (especially from step#5 - the 'hopping' part) to be out of place within the context of a knife-defence tactic.


james


----------



## Doc (Mar 21, 2006)

JamesB said:
			
		

> I'll have a go with 'glancing lance' as described in your second link. Assume for the moment that this attack is likely to happen (I can't comment on this but see Doc's response in this same thread).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You UK guys are pretty sharp.


----------



## MJS (Mar 21, 2006)

WOW!!  This is what I'm looking for! Thanks James!  Its nice to finally get on track with where I was looking for this thread to go..a discussion on the techniques!




			
				JamesB said:
			
		

> I would say that stepping off 'center-line' is fairly critical in this technique, if not the most important part. However of all the technique-writeups that I have seen on this technique, none have actually addressed how one should transition into the left-neutral-bow.
> 
> As written, a 'step back' to 7.30 is actually a 'step around' and in my opinion is not a very efficient way to get to that position. More detail should be present on specific foot-work that would allow one to transition safely out of the way.
> 
> I would also question whether a left-neutral-bow would be the most desirable stance to transition to...a push-drag backwards into a forward-bow would be faster and allow you to react quicker to the attack. comments anyone?


 
Good point.  Personally, I'd rather move off to the side, out of the line of attack.  





> The next problem I see with the technique is how to execute the right-outward-handsword. The way I see it, your right hand must first come across your own centerline, contouring your body as you 'step back' - in an outward parrying motion to ensure that you have a limb inbetween the knife and your body. Once the right arm has been brought into the correct posture the hand-sword/grab can be executed.
> 
> The problem I see with this, is that your right arm has to first travel *under* the path of the knife thrust, as you are starting to execute the parry/handsword. Don't know why, but this doesn't seem like the best course of action to me. I think I'd prefer an attack from above (to the top of the attacker's arm). An attack from above would make more sense to me, as it would be likely that you would have your arms in the air anyway, in a defensive posture.
> 
> ...


 
IMO, and it just may be the way *I* have learned this technique, I'm not crazy about the initial knife hand and then trying to grab with the same hand.  If the grab is missed, we've done nothing more than set the attacker up for a follow up strike.  

I've always been a believer in trying to maintain control of the weapon hand first and foremost.  We can't assume that any of the strikes are going to incapacitate our opponent.  In addition we need to take into consideration that they're not going to be standing there, but instead trying to pull away from us.

Mike


----------



## Kenpobuff (Mar 21, 2006)

Good discussion finally, for discussion purposes.  I agree with your concerns with the techniques.

Thanks for the stats "Doc".


----------



## Atlanta-Kenpo (Mar 21, 2006)

I agree that the odds of getting into a knife fight or any other fight is very rare these days.  However, the odds of having a few planes fly into buildings was also a very low odds but it happened. We were not prepared for that one because it was such a low % chance of it actually happening.   Just because the odds are "in your favor" does not give you an excuse to be unprepared.  If that was the case then we all should give up the phycisal combat arts and change into more internal arts.  After all that training will be more benificial to us and we will all get a chance to use it.  

I think that there is some good stuff in the knife techniques but you may need an experience person whom has studied them to point them out ( I would highly recommend e-mailing Lee Wedlake www.lwkarate.com I just had a seminar on this exact topic and he was able help me understand them much better. ) I still favor Kali (Pekiti Tirsia) as a far superior system for knife defense.  If you are really interested in looking deeper into the knife techniques look for the open ended traingles and cross relate them to how the FMA deal with knive attacks.  Form 6 has a good bit of information in it so check that out.  Also, some of the rod and storm techniques can also work as blade techniques (hint hint).

"CHANCE FAVORS THE PREPARED MIND"


----------



## MJS (Mar 22, 2006)

Atlanta-Kenpo said:
			
		

> I agree that the odds of getting into a knife fight or any other fight is very rare these days. However, the odds of having a few planes fly into buildings was also a very low odds but it happened. We were not prepared for that one because it was such a low % chance of it actually happening. Just because the odds are "in your favor" does not give you an excuse to be unprepared. If that was the case then we all should give up the phycisal combat arts and change into more internal arts. After all that training will be more benificial to us and we will all get a chance to use it.


 
I agree with this statement!  Looking at posts on some other forums, I see the attitude you're talking about.  I'd rather be prepared for something and never have to use it, than be caught scratching my head, wondering what to do, if that day comes.



> I think that there is some good stuff in the knife techniques but you may need an experience person whom has studied them to point them out ( I would highly recommend e-mailing Lee Wedlake www.lwkarate.com I just had a seminar on this exact topic and he was able help me understand them much better. ) I still favor Kali (Pekiti Tirsia) as a far superior system for knife defense. If you are really interested in looking deeper into the knife techniques look for the open ended traingles and cross relate them to how the FMA deal with knive attacks. Form 6 has a good bit of information in it so check that out. Also, some of the rod and storm techniques can also work as blade techniques (hint hint).
> 
> "CHANCE FAVORS THE PREPARED MIND"


 
More great points!  I agree that having someone show you the way, so to speak, will open your eyes in the event there is some confusion.  I did just that, and I still make those calls to those that can and have cleared things up.

I agree with the FMA's also!  Since I've been training, I've come to understand and respect the blade much much more.

Mike


----------



## kenpoworks (Mar 22, 2006)

JamesB said:
			
		

> I'll have a go with 'glancing lance' .........
> 
> I would say that stepping off 'center-line' is fairly critical in this technique, if not the most important part. However of all the technique-writeups that I have seen on this technique, none have actually addressed how one should transition into the left-neutral-bow.
> 
> ...


 
I would agree with you about the "write ups" and the moves from step #5 have more to do with a lesson in basic butchery, but the Lance techniques are in two halfs how to defend against a knife and then how to use it offensively. as well as murederously if you consider what you are really doing, so yes it has ceased to be a technique for defence.
I have found that that the initial use of the term "stepping" has already gotten you off on the wrong foot(PTP), if you vigorously practice moving the target then the trasition into the left neutral should have a more natural feel, by working this simplest of ideas you will find that even Entwind Lance can become a more manegable exercise.
NB.
when I practice I dont try to make the written version work, but rather try and devlop an idea within the technique in this case moving the target.
Rich


----------



## Blindside (Mar 22, 2006)

> The problem I see with this, is that your right arm has to first travel *under* the path of the knife thrust, as you are starting to execute the parry/handsword. Don't know why, but this doesn't seem like the best course of action to me. I think I'd prefer an attack from above (to the top of the attacker's arm). An attack from above would make more sense to me, as it would be likely that you would have your arms in the air anyway, in a defensive posture.


 
One thing I don't like about the particular entry in this technique is that it requires the attack to be straight thrust and not be a hooking thrust.  In my experience with this, you don't have the time to read the difference, particularly when you reduce the range.  If you do this technique against a hooking thrust you wind up with the knife imbedded in your bowels.  In general against lowline thrusts I prefer to zone left with a right downward block or go in straight and inside with a low counter thrust, but thats just my Pekiti talking.

Lamont


----------



## kenpoworks (Mar 22, 2006)

Blindside said:
			
		

> ...............or go in straight and inside with a low counter thrust, but thats just my Pekiti talking.
> 
> Lamont


 
Hi Lamont,
could just clear something up for me when you say ...."with a low counter thrust"...are you armed with a blade as well?
W.R.
Rich


----------



## Doc (Mar 22, 2006)

kenpoworks said:
			
		

> I would agree with you about the "write ups" and the moves from step #5 have more to do with a lesson in basic butchery, but the Lance techniques are in two halfs how to defend against a knife and then how to use it offensively. as well as murederously if you consider what you are really doing, so yes it has ceased to be a technique for defence.
> I have found that that the initial use of the term "stepping" has already gotten you off on the wrong foot(PTP), if you vigorously practice moving the target then the trasition into the left neutral should have a more natural feel, by working this simplest of ideas you will find that even Entwind Lance can become a more manegable exercise.
> NB.
> when I practice I dont try to make the written version work, but rather try and devlop an idea within the technique in this case moving the target.
> Rich


They grow them pretty smart across the pond.


----------



## Doc (Mar 22, 2006)

Being 'prepared' is obviously a good idea. In fact we have gun and knife attacks in spite of the statistics because most of my students have more physical confrontations in a day, than most of you in a year or even a lifetime. But that is not the point. It is about priorities. I see far too may people discussing fancy knife fight techniques and defenses for things that are not likely to happen, when they can't step back into a good solid neutral bow and execute a good inward block. Unfortunately, I've seen and proved this too many times in seminars with people with way to many stripes. It's ok to try to learn how to fly, but can you at least give crawling a try before you jump up?


----------



## kenpoworks (Mar 22, 2006)

Doc said:
			
		

> They grow them pretty smart across the pond.


"needs must" Doc,... now if I could personally reconcile S4 & MK/CK then I think I may be be able to scratch my itch!
W.R.
Rich


----------



## Blindside (Mar 22, 2006)

kenpoworks said:
			
		

> Hi Lamont,
> could just clear something up for me when you say ...."with a low counter thrust"...are you armed with a blade as well?
> W.R.
> Rich


 
Usually it is done empty handed, but it comes from a bladed application.  Imagine thrusting your left hand straight toward the other persons hip flexor (or slightly higher), this will bring your left hand to the inside of their thrust.  The unarmed application stops short of touching the other persons body, the armed application can hit the body, but the point is you countered their thrust with one of your own.  

Lamont


----------



## kenpoworks (Mar 23, 2006)

Blindside said:
			
		

> Usually it is done empty handed, but it comes from a bladed application. Imagine thrusting your left hand straight toward the other persons hip flexor (or slightly higher), this will bring your left hand to the inside of their thrust. The unarmed application stops short of touching the other persons body, the armed application can hit the body, but the point is you countered their thrust with one of your own.
> 
> Lamont


 
Thanks for the reply Lamont, I think I know what you mean now.
Rich


----------



## JamesB (Mar 23, 2006)

Out of interest has anybody investigated the 'Kenpo Counterpoint' series developed by Mr Zach Whitson? He has a second DVD available which details a series of 'knife flow drills'. The drills are a two-man set/form and combine all of the kenpo knife techniques (glancing/raining/piercing etc) into one continuously flowing form. 

The counterpoint drills are a very interesting take on the knife techniques and include Pekiti-Tirsia Kali concepts+tactics within the form. I thought it was seriously cool when watching the DVD as have others I've shown it to.. 

this is the site (although I bought mine from the kenponet-mall):
http://www.kenpocounterpoint.com/Store.html


James


----------



## MJS (Mar 25, 2006)

This thread seems to have slowed a bit.  IMO, breaking down the techniques, so as to have a better understanding of them, is certainly something worth looking at.  

So, that being said, I figured we could discuss the other technique on the link I posted.

Mike


----------



## MJS (Mar 25, 2006)

JamesB said:
			
		

> Out of interest has anybody investigated the 'Kenpo Counterpoint' series developed by Mr Zach Whitson? He has a second DVD available which details a series of 'knife flow drills'. The drills are a two-man set/form and combine all of the kenpo knife techniques (glancing/raining/piercing etc) into one continuously flowing form.
> 
> The counterpoint drills are a very interesting take on the knife techniques and include Pekiti-Tirsia Kali concepts+tactics within the form. I thought it was seriously cool when watching the DVD as have others I've shown it to..
> 
> ...


 
Havent seen the DVD in question.  Perhaps you could give us some feedback on what he has done with the knife techniques. 

Mike


----------



## bujuts (Apr 3, 2006)

This is a good topic, I've enjoyed reading all the posts. I won't spend any time on the notion of "run first", because, well, that should be obvious to any martial artist with half a brain. Granted, that assumes running is an option. Similarly, its extremely rare (as was stated by others) that civilians will get into a knife scrap, and still very rare for military and law enforcement, save for perhaps very surgical military manuevers requiring stealth and hand to hand - still, primarily a thing for the movies.

With all that aside, I would have to submit a respectful disagreement with some of your posts:



			
				still learning said:
			
		

> If you have to fight/defend...use shoes,belt,jacket or anything around you for a weapon to fight back with! Grab something...anything~!
> 
> Always have your outer arms facing out with palms facing you! It the knife attacker tries to cut you, he will not cut the veins.


 
Why compromise your kenpo training and your alignment based on your fear of getting cut? If someone is trying to kill you (not play with you), the position of your forearms will matter little. Your mind should be in kill mode, not in fear for your life mode and take actions unnatural to your training for the sake of "what if this" or "what if that".



			
				still learning said:
			
		

> and always use TWO HANDS to hold on to the knife hand and use the rest of your body to strike with! If you can grab and hold on!


 
IMHO, this is weapon fixation. You get clocked in the head by his free hand, then he makes a cut as you reel. Deal with the initial attack, dominate his space and eliminate his ability to continue attacking, and destroy. Isn't that kenpo in a nutshell?



			
				still learning said:
			
		

> don;t be fool with your everyday techiques in class....in the real world things will happen FAST, the adrenline,fear factor,heart pumping, the darkness...so on...


 
100% agreed. Many knife training sessions are wrought with unrealistic lack of violence and multiple, quick repetitive attacks (the classic prison shank comes to mind - how many times can a person stab in 1 second? Alot). The way I see it, anyone coming at me with a knife is 1) likely crazed, 2) quite strong, 3) has done this before, 4) fast, and 5) all of the above. It goes without saying what our arednaline dump will be, to boot.



			
				still learning said:
			
		

> IN class NO one trains against a real attacter and a real blade! and every knife fighter will be different, some more experience,some slashers, and so on...


 
Again, agreed. Our study should be principle based and focused on dealing with the initial attack. Many many martial artists do all sort of sepctacular manuevers against unrealistic attacks, working to bump up their after-control performance than how to deal with the initial onset of the violence.



			
				still learning said:
			
		

> These are my thoughts..........never been in a real knife attack....so I could be wrong here............Aloha


 
Nor I, nor do I ever want to be. I've learned enough about the knife from the real deal to know I don't know crap about the knife. Unless there is absolutely no choice, I will run w/out hesitation.

Cheers,

Steven Brown
UKF


----------



## Doc (Apr 3, 2006)

bujuts said:
			
		

> This is a good topic, I've enjoyed reading all the posts. I won't spend any time on the notion of "run first", because, well, that should be obvious to any martial artist with half a brain. Granted, that assumes running is an option. Similarly, its extremely rare (as was stated by others) that civilians will get into a knife scrap, and still very rare for military and law enforcement, save for perhaps very surgical military manuevers requiring stealth and hand to hand - still, primarily a thing for the movies.
> 
> With all that aside, I would have to submit a respectful disagreement with some of your posts:
> 
> ...


Really good thoughts Mr. Brown.


----------



## bujuts (Apr 4, 2006)

My thanks.  I really think this the whole notion of dealing with the first attack is critical.  When training empty hand against the knife, I practice more dealing with the first motion than anything else.  Once I'm in his space and have established control over the knife, the rest is easy.  Its getting there that's the hard part.

Cheers,

Steven Brown
UKF


----------



## MJS (Apr 4, 2006)

bujuts said:
			
		

> My thanks. I really think this the whole notion of dealing with the first attack is critical. When training empty hand against the knife, I practice more dealing with the first motion than anything else. Once I'm in his space and have established control over the knife, the rest is easy. Its getting there that's the hard part.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> ...


 
Thanks for your feedback!   I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on the techniques that I've listed for discussion.  

Mike


----------



## bujuts (Apr 4, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> Thanks for your feedback! I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on the techniques that I've listed for discussion.
> Mike


 
Using Glancing Lance:



			
				RB said:
			
		

> 1. An attacker at 12 o'clock comes at you with a right shuffling knife thrust.
> 
> 2. Step your right foot to 7:30 into a left neutral bow as you get out of the line of attacker. Execute a right outward hand sword to the outside of your attacker's right wrist. Immediately after you strike the right wrist, seize the wrist and execute a left palm strike to the outside of your attacker's right elbow.


 
The classical version of this technique has always been a little sketchy to me. It sounds about as easy as catching a boxer's jab. When I envision a thrusting knife attack, I see it as something close to his body, not extended, the elbows bent and achored, and him literally running into me as he makes a pin cushion out of my intestines. There is not just one thrust - its repeated again and again, and quickly. The fact that the attack is a shuffle and not a step through suggests he's already closer than he should be anyway.



			
				RB said:
			
		

> 3. Execute a right front kick to your attacker's groin. (When kicking, maintain control of your attacker's right hand so as they do pull back and slice you up.)


 
Like most strikes to the groin, I personally do not see it as a strike to the groin. I see it as a forceful displacement of the hips by kicking into the pelvic gurdle. If he has genitals in the way that's his problem. My objective here is to affect height.



			
				RB said:
			
		

> 4. As you land forward into a right neutral bow facing 12 o'clock, have your right leg buckle and check the inside of your attacker's right leg while you execute a right two-finger inward hook to your attacker's eyes. (Your left hand should be maintaining the check on your attacker's right arm.)


 
I personally like the use of a downward bracing angle check with my left forearm, literally pressing the offending arm into him. I don't use a lot of open hand in this sort of thing, as it requires more accuracy than I'll probably have given the adrenaline dump, speed, and anxiety that's at hand at the time. Gross motions with proper alignment. Does that make sense?



			
				RB said:
			
		

> 5. Hop your left foot to 9 o'clock into a one-leg stance as you execute a right outward downward parry to the outside of your attacker's right elbow. As you parry, execute a right palm strike to your attacker's right shoulder.


 
I personally feel "hopping" is insane. Step. Stay engaged at all times. If the attack was truly aggressive, you're dealing with his entire mass. After that powerful boot through the groin to the pelvis, he may buckle down and crash into you if your "checking palm" is inadequate to control his depth, and if your eye hook missed, leaving you nothing to control height with. Not to mention, if you're eye hook DID work right, then you've got a human eyeball in your palm, and now his mind is now in a co-contracting frenzy. Control of the dimensions is now critical; there's no telling what he'll do. When we work Leaping Crane, we don't "leap" at all. We step to about 10:30, then invade in towards 1:30 or so, never coming to that dangerous state called "balance".



			
				RB said:
			
		

> 6. Execute a right knife edge kick to the outside of your attacker's right knee.
> 
> 7. Land into a right neutral bow between your attacker's legs as you simultaneously finish the loop of the downward parry and execute a right inward palm claw to your attacker's face. (Your left hand will slide from his shoulder to his arm to check it.)
> 
> ...


 
If this was truly a killing scenario (i.e. one requiring a kill), which in my mind it is, this would likely end like similar to leaping crane. The elbows anchored in no. 8 to control the torso, you should have the levarage and positioning to break the neck. There's no way I can describe that one by writing, the positioning must be very specific. If it didn't need to be taken to the kill, this is a great spot for the Jamdown (another difficult one to describe).

One last thing on the subject of killing. This is a point of fantasy for many, I believe, and I contend too few "knife practitioners" take the time to maturely contemplate the implications of a bladed scenario. I will first disclaim that I have never done such a thing, and pray I never have to. But all ethical and moral discussions aside, the human body is very tough and there are very few ways to bring about a quick kill. Something my teacher mentioned to me once that stuck with me: nothing is more dangerous than a human in the throngs of death. You remove an eyeball, you cut someone for the sake of cutting (i.e. "defanging the snake"), you are putting someone in that state of being, the desperate state of co-contraction. All cards are now on the table, and its not a weekend bar scrap anymore. It may be that their intent wasn't so much to kill you as to just give you a quick stick in the belly so they can grab your wallet and leave you in a fetal position for a likely rescue. Now its different, now they want you 100% D-E-A-D, and if they think they're dying, that is pretty much all they're set on doing. ANY failure to control the weapon nd their body could result in you dying too. Sketchy stuff, this knife business.

Any input is welcome, thanks for the discussion.

Steven Brown
UKF


----------



## Doc (Apr 4, 2006)

bujuts said:
			
		

> Using Glancing Lance:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Man, you're good.


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Apr 4, 2006)

Doc said:
			
		

> Man, you're good.


 
Dang, Doc. This guy one of yours?

D.


----------



## Doc (Apr 4, 2006)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Dang, Doc. This guy one of yours?
> 
> D.


Nope, but he sures make sense. There are a lot of smart guys out there. That's how I met you, remember?


----------



## Atlanta-Kenpo (Apr 4, 2006)

For those of you who were asking about Mr Whitson's Counterpoint DVD:  I like the DVD's but I am bias because I travel up to TN about every other month to train in Kenpo, Kali (Pekiti Tirsia) and Counterpoint along with a fellow kenpo brother.  His Counterpoint knife flow drills take in consideration that your opponet is a trained knife fighter and knows how to counter.  I would recommend them to anyone however, it is just the tip of the iceburg and I would try to catch him at a seminar sometime.


----------



## Blindside (Apr 5, 2006)

Atlanta-Kenpo said:
			
		

> For those of you who were asking about Mr Whitson's Counterpoint DVD: I like the DVD's but I am bias because I travel up to TN about every other month to train in Kenpo, Kali (Pekiti Tirsia) and Counterpoint along with a fellow kenpo brother. His Counterpoint knife flow drills take in consideration that your opponet is a trained knife fighter and knows how to counter. I would recommend them to anyone however, it is just the tip of the iceburg and I would try to catch him at a seminar sometime.


 
How do the knife defenses from the kenpo counterpoint drills differ from the unarmed Pekiti kali defenses?  What alterations to the base kenpo techniques have been made to take into account dealing with a "trained knife fighter"?

I've been interested in Mr. Whitson's knife counterpoint (I really liked the original counterpoint release) but I figured I wouldn't get that much out of it since I already train in PTK.  Would that be incorrect?

Thanks,

Lamont

Lamont


----------



## JamesB (Apr 5, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> Havent seen the DVD in question. Perhaps you could give us some feedback on what he has done with the knife techniques.


 
Sorry for not responding sooner, I've been trying to find a spare moment to sit down and watch the DVD again so I can write something about it.....review of the DVD further down...



			
				Blindside said:
			
		

> How do the knife defenses from the kenpo counterpoint drills differ from the unarmed Pekiti kali defenses? What alterations to the base kenpo techniques have been made to take into account dealing with a "trained knife fighter"?
> 
> I've been interested in Mr. Whitson's knife counterpoint (I really liked the original counterpoint release) but I figured I wouldn't get that much out of it since I already train in PTK. Would that be incorrect?


 
I have no exposure to PTK so I can't really address this very well, but I think if you enjoyed the first Counterpoint release you will definitely like the knife-counterpoint. I'll do my best to give an outline of what the DVD presents but bear in mind I'm not an expert and have spent very little time actually working the counterpoint drills.

Mr Whitson has taken the six kenpo-karate knife-techniques (Clipping-the-Lance, Glancing Lance, Thrusting Lance, Entwined Lance, Raining Lance, Piercing Lance), and (from a kenpo viewpoint) turned them into a two-man form. 





​The DVD itself is very well presented. The picture quality and audio is very good for this type of project - of course it is nowhere near that of a movie, but compared to other kenpo tapes/DVDs this one seems to me to be much better in terms of quality. The DVD is broken into chapters, and each knife technique has it's own chapter on the disc. The disc starts with an introduction, then moves onto safety issues that should be observed whilst training. The rest of the disc contains the actual techniques, with a full demonstration of the form at the end. In the tape Mr Whitson uses one of his students - I think his name is Mr Josh Ryer.

The form starts with Clipping the Lance, a modified version of Clipping the Storm, but for a knife attack. Mr Whitson first introduces the 'base' technique that everyone will be familar with, but then moves onto how the technique can be utilized against a *trained* knife attacker. The technique starts with the arms's raised. The attacker steps in and thrusts the knife towards your belly with his right hand.




​The defender steps back and deflects the the knife-thrust on the outside of the arm with a right downward parry. The next move in Lance/Storm is to destruct the attacker's outstretched arm with a left outward/downward handsword to the wrist. However before this action is completed the attacker 'back-draws' the knife to the opposite side of his body and there is no target to hit.

The third 'move' of Clipping the storm should be a right inward hand-sword to the forearm with your 'rear' arm. However the attacker has withdrawn the knife and is already returning with a backhand strike to your head. The strike which should be hitting the forearm is held high and blocks the incoming knife-strike, this time on the outside of the attacker's right arm (it is a backhand movement remember). 




​On this DVD Mr Whitson introduces a knife-fighting principle called 'Cross-hands' which teaches how to check and control a knife-arm, always using the 'opposite' hand to what you are being attacked with. It is not the attacking arm being used that is important here, but where the knife is coming from. If the attack comes from the *left* side of the attacker's body (using either his left or right hand) then the defender's *right* arm should be used to block/check the knife arm. Likewise, if the attack comes from the *right* side of the attacker's body (using either arm), the defender should use his *left* arm to counter the attack. Mr Whitson breaks this principle down and explains why it is important, and introduces several applications of it's use, including how to intregrate it into the knife-flow-drill.

Using this principle, the next move of clipping the lance requires the defender to bring his *left* arm up to check the outside of the attacker's arm, alongside the right arm which is already checking. The defender then attempts to circle the attackers arm down against his (attacker's) own body, and with the already-chambered right arm, re-attempts a right inward handsword to the knife-arm to cause a destruction.



 
No sooner as this action is taking place, the attacker withdraws his knife arm, steps out wide and cancels+controls the defender's width by checking (on the outside) of the defender's lead (left) arm, above the elbow, and also checks the defender's knee with his leg. The attacker's right arm draws back, ready for a kill-strike to the defender's head as he is turned away.




​This takes us up to the next chapter on the DVD, Entwined Lance. Again Mr Whitson introduces the 'original' technique and then details how it has been integrated and modified to fit into this two-main knife drill. The technique follows on directly from the last with the two persons in the same fighting positions.

Look at the picture above. The knife thrust is coming in towards the head. Defender must step forwards into a rotating twist, bringing his left arm up to check the incoming knife-arm. He steps again in toward the attacker just like you do in Entwined Lance) with the right outward-hand-sword to the attacker's throat. However the attacker checks the incoming handsword.....

I'm going to stop there as hopefully people can see where this is going. Each knife technique flows into the next throughout the form. However the detail is in how each 'major move' is countered/recountered, by both attacker and defender. The form doesn't stop with the last technique though - when it gets to this stage, the Defender produces a knife and it is his turn to 'attack'. The roles reverse - the attacker becomes the defender, and the form repeats itself.

Basically the entire form is a free-flowing, dynamic two-man knife set. Rather than taking each technique to completion, portions of them are used with the idea that the attacker is *trained* and knows how to counter your defensive actions. Principles found in PTK (and in also in kenpo if you know where to look!) are interwoven into the techniques and what results is a fantastic two-man form which adds a totally new dimension to the kenpo knife techniques. 

At the end of the DVD Mr Whiton (and ..) demonstrate the form, first slowly, then at full speed. It is simply amazing to watch. However at the start of the DVD Mr Whitson does state this this is just a 'beginner' form - and to properly train these concepts and obtain spontenaity, random timing and positions should be trained as well.

I would recommend this DVD / training series to anybody. People may say that all these countering/knife tactic principles are already in the 'base' techniques, but if you don't train that way to begin with (dynamically) then there is simply no way to train these concepts. This two-man form does a terrific job of presenting the 'troubled' kenpo knife techniques. The dynamic/free flow training nature will give you a new dimension to approach your kenpo training.

And if you haven't seen his first DVD (in which he presents 'regular' kenpo techniques such as five-swords, raining claw, leaping crane, retreating pendulum, and many more), then you really should try and seek this man out at seminars if you live in the US.

James

p.s. I hosted the images in this post at www.imageshack.us, as I couldn't find a way to attach them 'inline' using this forum's features. I've attached them all below just in case the image-shack links break.


----------



## Hand Sword (Apr 5, 2006)

Cool Stuff. However, I would recommend studying the FMA's for stick and knife fighting over the Kenpo stuff. (sorry)


----------



## MJS (Apr 5, 2006)

bujuts said:
			
		

> Using Glancing Lance:
> 
> 
> 
> The classical version of this technique has always been a little sketchy to me. It sounds about as easy as catching a boxer's jab. When I envision a thrusting knife attack, I see it as something close to his body, not extended, the elbows bent and achored, and him literally running into me as he makes a pin cushion out of my intestines. There is not just one thrust - its repeated again and again, and quickly. The fact that the attack is a shuffle and not a step through suggests he's already closer than he should be anyway.


 
Agreed!





> Like most strikes to the groin, I personally do not see it as a strike to the groin. I see it as a forceful displacement of the hips by kicking into the pelvic gurdle. If he has genitals in the way that's his problem. My objective here is to affect height.


 
Agree again!  One of the key principles: height, width and depth.





> I personally like the use of a downward bracing angle check with my left forearm, literally pressing the offending arm into him. I don't use a lot of open hand in this sort of thing, as it requires more accuracy than I'll probably have given the adrenaline dump, speed, and anxiety that's at hand at the time. Gross motions with proper alignment. Does that make sense?


 
Yes, it makes perfect sense!  I use this 'pressing' idea in my Arnis.  





> I personally feel "hopping" is insane. Step. Stay engaged at all times. If the attack was truly aggressive, you're dealing with his entire mass. After that powerful boot through the groin to the pelvis, he may buckle down and crash into you if your "checking palm" is inadequate to control his depth, and if your eye hook missed, leaving you nothing to control height with. Not to mention, if you're eye hook DID work right, then you've got a human eyeball in your palm, and now his mind is now in a co-contracting frenzy. Control of the dimensions is now critical; there's no telling what he'll do. When we work Leaping Crane, we don't "leap" at all. We step to about 10:30, then invade in towards 1:30 or so, never coming to that dangerous state called "balance".


 
I'm not a big fan of the hopping either, and I do not do it when I do Leaping Crane.





> If this was truly a killing scenario (i.e. one requiring a kill), which in my mind it is, this would likely end like similar to leaping crane. The elbows anchored in no. 8 to control the torso, you should have the levarage and positioning to break the neck. There's no way I can describe that one by writing, the positioning must be very specific. If it didn't need to be taken to the kill, this is a great spot for the Jamdown (another difficult one to describe).
> 
> One last thing on the subject of killing. This is a point of fantasy for many, I believe, and I contend too few "knife practitioners" take the time to maturely contemplate the implications of a bladed scenario. I will first disclaim that I have never done such a thing, and pray I never have to. But all ethical and moral discussions aside, the human body is very tough and there are very few ways to bring about a quick kill. Something my teacher mentioned to me once that stuck with me: nothing is more dangerous than a human in the throngs of death. You remove an eyeball, you cut someone for the sake of cutting (i.e. "defanging the snake"), you are putting someone in that state of being, the desperate state of co-contraction. All cards are now on the table, and its not a weekend bar scrap anymore. It may be that their intent wasn't so much to kill you as to just give you a quick stick in the belly so they can grab your wallet and leave you in a fetal position for a likely rescue. Now its different, now they want you 100% D-E-A-D, and if they think they're dying, that is pretty much all they're set on doing. ANY failure to control the weapon nd their body could result in you dying too. Sketchy stuff, this knife business.
> 
> ...


 
You have made some EXCELLENT points!!  Thank you for a very informative discussion!:asian: 

Mike


----------



## MJS (Apr 5, 2006)

I'd like to thank Atlanta-Kenpo and JamesB for posting feedback about the DVD's.  Its certainly something worth checking out!  I like the way Mr. Whitson has broken the moves down, taking into consideration that we may not be facing the 'average Joe' with a knife.

Thanks again to both of you!:asian: 

Mike


----------



## JamesB (Apr 5, 2006)

Hand Sword said:
			
		

> Cool Stuff. However, I would recommend studying the FMA's for stick and knife fighting over the Kenpo stuff. (sorry)


 
I general I agree - especially with the kenpo-knife 'base' techniques - a FMA (under which I believe Pekiti-Tersia would fall??) would be superior for knife/stick fighting against skilled opponents. After all these systems were developed, and 'stress tested' with this goal specifically in mind.

However do take the time to see what other (non-mainstream) people are doing with this stuff. I simply can't do justice in explaining what Mr Whitson has done with the kenpo techniques as I've not spent any serious time studying it.


----------



## TChase (Apr 5, 2006)

Hand Sword said:
			
		

> Cool Stuff. However, I would recommend studying the FMA's for stick and knife fighting over the Kenpo stuff. (sorry)


 
Well that would depend on what Kenpo knife stuff you've been exposed to wouldn't it?  

The problem with whole "knife fighting" idea is that there really is no "knife fighting"...just knife killing.  Someone who attacks you with murderous intent isn't going to duel with you.  Criminal violence is fast and brutal and if not dealt with at the onset of the engagement the results can be disastrous.  There will be no back and forth.


----------



## bujuts (Apr 5, 2006)

TChase said:
			
		

> Someone who attacks you with murderous intent isn't going to duel with you. Criminal violence is fast and brutal and if not dealt with at the onset of the engagement the results can be disastrous. There will be no back and forth.


 
I can't help to to agree with Mr. Chase here, but that's expected as we are in the same group.

By this post I mean no slant whatsoever towards Mr. Whitson or any of his students. I've heard Mr. Whitson is very talented and have had the privelage of mat time with one of his students, who had much to offer. What I discuss below is based only on my VERY LIMITED understanding of the knife, and of course I welcome commentary.

On the notion of knife training. To train how to flow back and forth against an assailant with a knife, whether you have a knife or not - slipping, parrying, dodging, reading, trapping, and "countering" - teaches us to remain primarily in a reactive mode. If the enemy does this, I do this, if he does this, I react thusly. In my mind, this is incredibly dangerous, and requires enormous talent for someone to be effective against true violence. This approach, to me, spends much time dealing with the blade and limbs, and takes the primary emphasis off of the real threat - the person doing the cutting. At the inception of our action, we should be in attack mode. If we are successful at deflecting or stopping the initial action, we should be in pursuit of the spinal ring. Kenpo is a system of annhialating the other's ability to continue their assault - we take over their space and dominate their dimensions. Its a dangerous proposition to go back and forth.

To put this in perspective, I turn to JamesB's (very informative, btw) synopsis of the DVD's.



			
				DVD said:
			
		

> ...The technique starts with the arms's raised. The attacker steps in and thrusts the knife towards your belly with his right hand
> 
> The defender steps back and deflects the the knife-thrust on the outside of the arm with a right downward parry. The next move in Lance/Storm is to destruct the attacker's outstretched arm with a left outward/downward handsword to the wrist.


 
I personally do not trust my accuracy in the chaotic fray of a life or death scenario to hit a wrist with a hand sword. As mentioned before, a gross motion with alignment is what I rely on, the path of action against the incoming line.



			
				DVD said:
			
		

> However before this action is completed the attacker 'back-draws' the knife to the opposite side of his body and there is no target to hit.


 
At this point, we as kenpoists should be on top of him, and if I could help it he'd have no more use of that knife. The pull back of the knife to the attacker's opposite side, a signature motion for many FMA systems, lacks a bracing angle. Granted, the empty hand is used as a countering item to parry and block. By and large this will work against your arm during a back and forth ebb and flow engagement, but it will not stand up to the freight train of your invading mass. In empty handed kenpo, we'd capitalize on this as we invade, pinning the offending arm to the torso as we assault. IMHO, our approach shouldn't differ just because he has a knife. The same principle applies.



			
				DVD said:
			
		

> The third 'move' of Clipping the storm should be a right inward hand-sword to the forearm with your 'rear' arm. However the attacker has withdrawn the knife and is already returning with a backhand strike to your head. The strike which should be hitting the forearm is held high and blocks the incoming knife-strike, this time on the outside of the attacker's right arm (it is a backhand movement remember).


 
Perhaps a skilled knife fighter would find a way to back up from the kenpoists' assault, I don't know. But this is the now the third cut to occur without us invading. If we are in range to parry the first strike, it shouldn't be more than a fraction of a second away from being in range to crack, crush, gouge, tear, break, or otherwise destroy some piece of his anatomy. The second and third strikes should only occur as a last ditch effort on his part. If we fail to engage, then we will get diced like sushi.

The same approach, then, should perhaps apply to the kenpoist using the knife? Otherwise, we might slip, parry, counter, cut, counter, slip, parry, cut, dodge, evade, cut, cut, and THEN make a final cut to the neck - then waiting of course about thirty to sixty *very long seconds* before he gets woozy (See my above post about leaving someone in the throngs of death - now you have a real menace on your hands)

Much of this points back to our intent in our training. There is much to be gained from drilling a continuous flow, and again I would have much to learn from anyone with the sorts of skills exhibited in this fashion. But insofar as survival as concerned, I contend our actions against a knife should be short, and the training should support this. We should not try to bleed the fight out of someone - they should be dead or nearly dead by the time we cover out. I have said before that kenpo is not a fighting system. It is a fight ending system. Continuous reaction is dangerous.

I'd like to hear the thoughts of others. There is nothing wrong with blending FMA into kenpo - this practice has put out alot of talented practitioners, not the least of which has been the subject of discussion here. I'm aware what I'm proposing is contrary to many some beneath FMA systems. However, if you look at the kenpo knife system, it operates the same as the empty handed system. 

Your thoughts?

Cheers, thanks for reading.

Steven Brown
UKF


----------



## lenatoi (Apr 5, 2006)

I have only had one experience with a knife "fight." One men had a knife, and the other one was on the floor with that guy's wife. Neither of the men had any kind of training, so this isn't exactly related, but it was a scary situation. By the time pictures were taken of the scene, the unarmed man was dead, and the attacker was covered in blood(the other guy's). It was hard to tell who the victim was.
When my husband arrived at the scene he asked the guy to put down the knife, and the guy did. That was how my husband used his training. 
I'll tell you what, if he had decided to jump in there to save the guy instead of using his brain, I would have laid into him myself when he got home!
I know this is a bit off subject, but I thaught it was important to mention how you can use other things than you body in a fight. Aaron tells people thet he uses his kenpo every day. I think this is what he is talking about.


----------



## Doc (Apr 5, 2006)

bujuts said:
			
		

> I can't help to to agree with Mr. Chase here, but that's expected as we are in the same group.
> 
> By this post I mean no slant whatsoever towards Mr. Whitson or any of his students. I've heard Mr. Whitson is very talented and have had the privelage of mat time with one of his students, who had much to offer. What I discuss below is based only on my VERY LIMITED understanding of the knife, and of course I welcome commentary.
> 
> ...


Mr. Brown your position is eloquently and reasonably stated. Because I too agree with you and have said so it he past, let me be a tad more forthcoming in a response. 

"Dueling with a skilled knife-fighter is sheer stupidity. Much like trying to out swin a shark. You may survive for a brief moment, but ultimately, you will lose. You must attack the attacker to have any chance of surviving the encounter." - Ron Chapél


----------



## bujuts (Apr 5, 2006)

Doc said:
			
		

> "Dueling with a skilled knife-fighter is sheer stupidity. Much like trying to out swin a shark.


 
Amen, Doc.  The way I run my life and keep my peace, by and large such discussions of dealing with a skilled knife fighter will for me be academic, and nothing more.  My greatest challenges are on the mats, not off of them.  And I just assume keep it that way until the day I retire to the dirt.

Besides, I room and travel with Dan Wesson.  Great guy.

Cheers,

Steven Brown
UKF


----------



## JamesB (Apr 5, 2006)

bujuts said:
			
		

> Granted, the empty hand is used as a countering item to parry and block. By and large this will work against your arm during a back and forth ebb and flow engagement, but it will not stand up to the freight train of your invading mass. In empty handed kenpo, we'd capitalize on this as we invade, pinning the offending arm to the torso as we assault. IMHO, our approach shouldn't differ just because he has a knife. The same principle applies.


 
Not sure how to respond to this, other than say I'm not qualified to state whether or not the proper action to take is to 'invade' the attacker's space as he is attacking. Personally I don't want to be anywhere near the attacker when he's thrusting/slashing a knife at me - in my mind keeping him at (a minimum!) of arm's length would be the ideal. But I think I'm misunderstanding what you are saying here.



			
				bujuts said:
			
		

> I'd like to hear the thoughts of others. There is nothing wrong with blending FMA into kenpo - this practice has put out alot of talented practitioners, not the least of which has been the subject of discussion here. I'm aware what I'm proposing is contrary to many some beneath FMA systems. However, if you look at the kenpo knife system, it operates the same as the empty handed system.
> 
> Your thoughts?


 
I essentially agree with what you're saying - especially about keeping the encounter as short and decisive as possible. However the thing I liked about the knife-drill was not the fact that it was a drawn-out, essentially choreographed knife fight, but rather it seemed like a good vehicle for developing sponteneity. It wasn't so much the step-by-step actions that were important, but rather learning to deal with the attackers reactions. Anyway I have very little knowledge in this area and definitely don't feel qualified to comment on the effectiveness of either method of training.

James​


----------



## JamesB (Apr 5, 2006)

Doc said:
			
		

> Dueling with a skilled knife-fighter is sheer stupidity. Much like trying to out swin a shark. You may survive for a brief moment, but ultimately, you will lose. You must attack the attacker to have any chance of surviving the encounter." - Ron Chapél


 


			
				bujuts said:
			
		

> Amen, Doc. The way I run my life and keep my peace, by and large such discussions of dealing with a skilled knife fighter will for me be academic, and nothing more. My greatest challenges are on the mats, not off of them. And I just assume keep it that way until the day I retire to the dirt.


 
Mmmm you've (both) got my vote. Although the likelyhood of being attacked by a knife is (I believe) greater in the UK (compared to a gun being used), I wonder how likely it would be -  to be attacked and then engage with a trained knife expert 'mano e mano' style...."not very" is my guess, and should such a person want to kill you surely they'll just sneak up and stab you from behind?


----------



## TChase (Apr 5, 2006)

All excellent thoughts and posts Mr. Brown.  As I've said before you have an incredible skill with putting this stuff in print.  I don't care to admit how long it would've taken me to try and put all you have down in writing myself.


Doc, that's a great quote.  And not to divert the conversation but I would love to hear your thoughts on the idea of _"you're going to get cut no matter what"_ when dealing with a bladed assault.  Do you feel this is a helpful or negative mindset to adopt in such a situation?


----------



## Doc (Apr 5, 2006)

TChase said:
			
		

> All excellent thoughts and posts Mr. Brown.  As I've said before you have an incredible skill with putting this stuff in print.  I don't care to admit how long it would've taken me to try and put all you have down in writing myself.
> 
> 
> Doc, that's a great quote.  And not to divert the conversation but I would love to hear your thoughts on the idea of _"you're going to get cut no matter what"_ when dealing with a bladed assault.  Do you feel this is a helpful or negative mindset to adopt in such a situation?


In law enforcement and the military sir we teach a 'survival mindset.' Just because you get shot or cut, doesn't mean you're going to die. Accept the possibility that it could happen, but do not let it cause you to 'give up.' I've seen some advocate the "I will never get cut" mindset as if we are not fallible. They suggest 'you must believe that it won't happen to you.' The theory being to 'be positive in your mindset and not negative.' It has been proven that mindset can cause you to go into shock. Further, it violates Mr. Parker's own thoughts on the subject of survival in an encounter, and a large part of common sense and logic sir.

"Most people are oblivious to danger. Others disregard danger, convinced that danger will never be a part of their life. However, whatever your attitude might be, be realistic and *ACCEPT* the fact that impending dangers do exist, and consider them seriously. Once you accept the existence of these impending dangers and realize that logical measures of prevention can help to avoid them, you have inherently armed yourself with a prime weapon against attack.

You must then create the DESIRE to do something about it, have the CONVICTION to begin your study of preventive measures, and instill the *WILLPOWER* to see your desire to completion under any circumstances that you might survive." - Ed Parker Sr. (Taken from the Intoduction of his last written version of the Yellow Belt Manual)


----------



## Doc (Apr 5, 2006)

lenatoi said:
			
		

> I have only had one experience with a knife "fight." One men had a knife, and the other one was on the floor with that guy's wife. Neither of the men had any kind of training, so this isn't exactly related, but it was a scary situation. By the time pictures were taken of the scene, the unarmed man was dead, and the attacker was covered in blood(the other guy's). It was hard to tell who the victim was.
> When my husband arrived at the scene he asked the guy to put down the knife, and the guy did. That was how my husband used his training.
> I'll tell you what, if he had decided to jump in there to save the guy instead of using his brain, I would have laid into him myself when he got home!
> I know this is a bit off subject, but I thaught it was important to mention how you can use other things than you body in a fight. Aaron tells people thet he uses his kenpo every day. I think this is what he is talking about.


Aaron is no dummy. He married you didn't he?


----------



## Hand Sword (Apr 5, 2006)

JamesB said:
			
		

> I general I agree - especially with the kenpo-knife 'base' techniques - a FMA (under which I believe Pekiti-Tersia would fall??) would be superior for knife/stick fighting against skilled opponents. After all these systems were developed, and 'stress tested' with this goal specifically in mind.
> 
> However do take the time to see what other (non-mainstream) people are doing with this stuff. I simply can't do justice in explaining what Mr Whitson has done with the kenpo techniques as I've not spent any serious time studying it.


 
I have done so for over 10 yrs. From lots of people from the Kempo and Kenpo communities. There are diffrerences, but, nothing new under the sun. I've also studied Silat and Kali, and I would trust that more. As you said it is stress tested.


----------



## Hand Sword (Apr 5, 2006)

TChase said:
			
		

> Well that would depend on what Kenpo knife stuff you've been exposed to wouldn't it?
> 
> The problem with whole "knife fighting" idea is that there really is no "knife fighting"...just knife killing. Someone who attacks you with murderous intent isn't going to duel with you. Criminal violence is fast and brutal and if not dealt with at the onset of the engagement the results can be disastrous. There will be no back and forth.


 
No, not really. They are all little differences under the same theories. As I've said, I have dealt with lots from the Kempo/kenpo communites, and I still say go with the FMA's. (First I'd say don't even do it! Run away!!!).

Second, Agreed! There is only knife killing. But, maybe I read it wrong, don't assume the FMA systems is about duelling only. They are fighting systems that deal exclusively with sticks and bladed weapons. Therefore are better adapted. They have reasonable defenses to study.


----------



## Hand Sword (Apr 5, 2006)

Doc said:
			
		

> "Dueling with a skilled knife-fighter is sheer stupidity. Much like trying to out swin a shark. You may survive for a brief moment, but ultimately, you will lose. You must attack the attacker to have any chance of surviving the encounter." - Ron Chapél


 

Excellent point Sir! (but, again, I would add, run away if able first!)


----------



## bujuts (Apr 6, 2006)

JamesB said:
			
		

> Not sure how to respond to this, other than say I'm not qualified to state whether or not the proper action to take is to 'invade' the attacker's space as he is attacking. Personally I don't want to be anywhere near the attacker when he's thrusting/slashing a knife at me - in my mind keeping him at (a minimum!) of arm's length would be the ideal. But I think I'm misunderstanding what you are saying here.​


 
Greetings, thanks for the reply.

All of these discussions are of course under the assumption that we are required to engage - avoiding, running, and shooting are of course always the best options.

Where I'm going with this is that IF we are actually required to engage and take out an assailant with a blade, we must take the approach the kenpo does so well - to deflect the initial attack, dominate his body and space, and destroy him (personally, I'm not a fan of using submission and compliance when it comes to a life and death scenario).  We can stay at an arms length and do damage, no doubt, but bear in mind that if we are to attack the major skeletal structure to the point of maiming or killing, we must get up close and all sorts of personal.  This means invading his Four Rings (4th Ring = foot range, 3rd = Hand range, 2nd = knee range, 1st = elbow range), and directly attacking and gaining control of his mass and skeleton.

Emtpy hand or bladed kenpo, when you invade the spine you take over, and when dealing with an armed assailant we must cancel dimensions and spare him no capacity to act against us.

In our group, we describe a controlled engagement in eight stages: 1) Out of Range and within your tactical area of response, 2) In range (i.e. entering your own Four Rings), 3) Contact penetration, 4) Impact Manipulation, 5) Contact Manipulation, 6) Contact maintenance, 7) Release, and 8) Extraction (cover).  To cut you, the attacker has brought you to step no. 2.  We proceed through to 6 which is when you've done the damage and now have physical control over his body, and can make a strategic assessment - escape (steps 7 and 8), re-engage as necessary (3 through 6 again), take on his buddies (1 through 8), etc.

Anyway, that's where I was going with the discussion of range.  Does that make sense?

I suppose all of this talk of fighting against knives would lead an outsider to think we're all nuts, and probably invites mockery from knife enthusiasts.  I can stress enough the importance of Doc's advice: taking on a trained knife fighter (or any knife for that matter) when its not mandatory to do so is insane.  But, we all know we should run first, we all know to get the tire iron or pool stick, or to draw.  But this discussion is of kenpo against a blade, and as long as readers take it in that context, I feel this is a very important topic.

Thank you for your posts.  Cheers and good day.

Steven Brown
Universal Kenpo Federation
Phoenix, Arizona


----------



## TChase (Apr 6, 2006)

Hand Sword said:
			
		

> No, not really. They are all little differences under the same theories. As I've said, I have dealt with lots from the Kempo/kenpo communites, and I still say go with the FMA's. (First I'd say don't even do it! Run away!!!).


 
While you are entiled to your opinion and I certainly respect that, I wouldn't be so quick to say "there is little difference under the same theories".  There are huge differences within American Kenpo itself, let alone its difference to other Kempo/Kenpo styles.  Just some food for thought my friend.


----------



## Doc (Apr 6, 2006)

TChase said:
			
		

> While you are entiled to your opinion and I certainly respect that, I wouldn't be so quick to say "there is little difference under the same theories".  There are huge differences within American Kenpo itself, let alone its difference to other Kempo/Kenpo styles.  Just some food for thought my friend.


Ditto.


----------



## Hand Sword (Apr 6, 2006)

TChase said:
			
		

> While you are entiled to your opinion and I certainly respect that, I wouldn't be so quick to say "there is little difference under the same theories". There are huge differences within American Kenpo itself, let alone its difference to other Kempo/Kenpo styles. Just some food for thought my friend.


 
That's exactly what all of this is-- everyone's opinion and preferences. From what* I've *seen in those "communities" over the last 10 yrs are not *huge* differences. EPAK is EPAK ultimately speaking, unless your a SL4 Stylist (right Doc?). Your techniques and theories are theirs as well, from the same Man. The only differences are the Tailorings involved in their execution. If I can offer some food back, here it is : If you want to learn to cook go to a chef. If you want to learn blades go with FMA's. Again, it's my opininion from my experiences.


----------



## JamesB (Apr 7, 2006)

bujuts said:
			
		

> Greetings, thanks for the reply.
> 
> All of these discussions are of course under the assumption that we are required to engage - avoiding, running, and shooting are of course always the best options.
> 
> ...


 
that makes perfect sense, thanks for the explanation!
cheers,
James


----------



## Hand Sword (Apr 7, 2006)

Theoretical  sense? Yes. However, easier said than done.


----------



## bujuts (Apr 7, 2006)

Hand Sword said:
			
		

> Theoretical sense? Yes. However, easier said than done.


 
Very true. Its all nice and organized on paper, but when the mierda is hitting the ventilador, theory an concepts are out the window. Its boils down to the meat and potatoes that only rigorous and effective training will provide. I think the concepts, strategies, etc. are important because help our analytical minds guide our kenpo path, but I agree that they serve no purpose in the moment of the confrontation.

Enjoyed this topic immensely.

Steven Brown
UKF


----------



## Doc (Apr 7, 2006)

bujuts said:
			
		

> Very true. Its all nice and organized on paper, but when the mierda is hitting the ventilador, theory an concepts are out the window. Its boils down to the meat and potatoes that only rigorous and effective training will provide. I think the concepts, strategies, etc. are important because help our analytical minds guide our kenpo path, but I agree that they serve no purpose in the moment of the confrontation.
> 
> Enjoyed this topic immensely.
> 
> ...


While I agree wholeheartedly, I feel the same applies to every aspect of a physical confrontation and not just a 'knife' attack. None of it is as simple as some would suggest in reality.


----------



## TChase (Apr 7, 2006)

Hand Sword said:
			
		

> That's exactly what all of this is-- everyone's opinion and preferences. From what* I've *seen in those "communities" over the last 10 yrs are not *huge* differences.


Which was exactly my point.  What you've seen and all that is out there are two seperate things entirely.



> Your techniques and theories are theirs as well, from the same Man. The only differences are the Tailorings involved in their execution.


No...not quite.  There are some fundamental differences.  



> If you want to learn to cook go to a chef. If you want to learn blades go with FMA's. Again, it's my opininion from my experiences.


If that's what works for you then excellent.  I'm happy for you and wish you the best of luck in your training.  Myself, I have experienced the FMAs and choose to be where I am.

:asian:


----------



## kenpoworks (Apr 7, 2006)

Doc.....None of it is as simple as some would suggest in reality.

Reality: "all tha is real and not imagined or fantasy"(Oxford dic)... what we do Kenpo is real enough it physically happens in Studios and Dojo's around the clock and around the world, but its how it translates to an actual incident that is the reality test, thats why I tell anyone who trains with me "make all your mistakes in the Dojo"....because a real situation with or without weapons is unforgiving.    W.R. Rich


----------



## Hand Sword (Apr 10, 2006)

TChase said:
			
		

> Which was exactly my point. What you've seen and all that is out there are two seperate things entirely.
> 
> 
> No...not quite. There are some fundamental differences.
> ...


 

:asian:


----------



## jazkiljok (May 12, 2006)

raining lance..

having gone thru this topic- i was wondering (Doc in particular) if folks would like to comment on this methodology for handling what Doc said was perhaps the most realistic of attack scenarios. 



1.	As the 9:00 attacker comes in with an overhead knife attack, step to 1:30 with your right foot and turn counter clockwise into a left neutral bow as you extend your right down out and down. Do a left downward block (scraping down your right arm) to guide the knife past you and into attackers groin. 
2.	With your left arm checking at solar plexus level, push drag forward into attacker while doing a right inward elbow to attackers chest. 
3.	While turning into a reverse bow, switch hands, checking low with your right hand while your left does an inverted claw (palm up) to attackers throat. 
4.	Switch hands again, checking low with your left hand while doing a right inward hand sword to attackers nose, into a right heel plam claw to attackers face


----------



## Doc (May 12, 2006)

jazkiljok said:
			
		

> raining lance..
> 
> having gone thru this topic- i was wondering (Doc in particular) if folks would like to comment on this methodology for handling what Doc said was perhaps the most realistic of attack scenarios.
> 
> ...


You're punctured and bleeding.


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (May 12, 2006)

Ummm...don't do this. I'm not sure if I'm reading your writing correctly, but I suspect trying this, as written, will provide your opponent ample opportunity to harm you with the sharp edge of his weapon. If the guys mad and animated, you're in trouble.

Regards,

D.


----------



## jazkiljok (May 12, 2006)

these are a few more i pulled from misc. websites --- Doc, any change in results using these descriptions?

Set IX:   Raining Lance (Right overhead knife attack from 9:00)
a. Pull the left foot back to 6:00, and pivot into a cat facing 9:00, and then step with the left foot to 9:00 into a left neutral bow as the left hand does an overhead downward parry (mirroring Thrusting Lance) to touch the right bicep. ?b. Slide to 9:00 with a left chop\push. ?c. Shuffle to 9:00 with a right inward horizontal elbow to the face. ?d. Pivot clockwise into a right reverse bow facing 1:30 as the right hand checks and the left hand does an inverted crab hand to the throat and the left knee checks.  As the left hand checks, pivot counter-clockwise into a left forward bow facing 9:00 as the right hand circles outward, upward, and then downward into a right chop which becomes a rolling claw.

Set 9: Raining Lance (Flank: Right Overhead Knife)
1. An attacker at 9 o'clock comes at you with a right overhead knife.
2. From your left neutral bow facing 12 o'clock and within the flow of motion from your backfist, step your left foot to 9 o'clock into a left neutral bow facing 9 o'clock as you execute a left inward parry to the outside of your attacker's right arm.
3. With the overhead attack still in motion, pivot clockwise into a horse stance facing 12 o'clock as your right hand assists your left into guiding your attacker's knife hand. Without losing momentum, pivot into a left neutral bow as you stab the knife into your attacker's right thigh.
4. Pivot into a left forward bow facing 9 o'clock as you execute a right inward elbow to your attacker's sternum to hold them vertical while your left hand continues to pin your attacker's right hand to their wounded thigh.
5. Pivot into a left neutral bow as your left hand tracks up your attacker's right arm into a palm up tiger's mouth strike to your attacker's throat. Simultaneous with this action, your right hand will switch and continue to press down on the knife in your attacker's thigh as well as check off their right hand.
6. Switch hands again, this time your left forearm pressing your attacker's thigh as your left hand grabs and squeezes your attacker's testicles. Simultaneously your right will circle counterclockwise and be palm up at your right shoulder. Execute a right tiger's mouth, using the forefinger and thumb to squeeze your attacker's eyes.

RAINING LANCE
Defense against an overhead knife attack
Step to 10:30 with your left foot into a left Neutral Bow while doing a left inward parry to guide attackers knife arm down past your left arm and into attackers thigh or groin.

Push Drag into attacker (if necessary) while doing a right Inward Elbow to attackers chest.

Switch hands, pinning attackers right arm down with your right hand while your left hand grabs (palm up) attackers throat.

Switch hands again, pinning attackers right arm down with your left hand while doing a right Inward Hand Sword to attackers nose, into a right Heel Plam Claw to attackers face.

As you move into a right High Wide Kneel (or down onto your left knee), slide your left hand up attackers chest, grab their neck or chin and anchor your elbow down, pulling attacker backwards. At the same time, circle your right hand from attackers face into a Back Knuckle to attackers kidney. As attacker lands on your right thigh, finish the circle with your right hand by doing a right overhead Hammerfist to attackers chest.

Push attacker off your knee and do a right Side Kick to attackers face.


----------



## Doc (May 13, 2006)

jazkiljok said:
			
		

> these are a few more i pulled from misc. websites --- Doc, any change in results using these descriptions?
> 
> Set IX:   Raining Lance (Right overhead knife attack from 9:00)
> a. Pull the left foot back to 6:00, and pivot into a cat facing 9:00, and then step with the left foot to 9:00 into a left neutral bow as the left hand does an overhead downward parry (mirroring Thrusting Lance) to touch the right bicep. ?b. Slide to 9:00 with a left chop\push. ?c. Shuffle to 9:00 with a right inward horizontal elbow to the face. ?d. Pivot clockwise into a right reverse bow facing 1:30 as the right hand checks and the left hand does an inverted crab hand to the throat and the left knee checks.  As the left hand checks, pivot counter-clockwise into a left forward bow facing 9:00 as the right hand circles outward, upward, and then downward into a right chop which becomes a rolling claw.
> ...


E) None of the above.


----------



## JenniM (May 13, 2006)

Interesting thread - however I feel that most martial knife-defense techniques have critical, and likely fatal, deficiencies.  Many Instructors demonstrate techniques that appear to be effective, however, it is important to distinguish between what is achievable in pre-arranged demonstrations, and what is the nature of "chaos" in a real life encounter.    We practice and demonstrate defenses against a single over-extended non-retracted strike in which the attacker (never using his free hand) then complies with the attempts of the defender.  Combination random attacks are rarely addressed.   This is not a criticism of the Kenpo techniques being discussed here but blade work is just not our specialty.  I have studied some blade work outside of the Kenpo realm and man did it open my eyes to the "mentality" of training with blades, I've trained in Kenpo for 25 years now and it certainly made me re-evaluate our knife techniques so I guess what I'm trying to say is don't get too bogged down with discussing specific knife techniques, if you're really interested and want the experience, go find a professional knife fighter and train with him/her - you'll never look at bladework the same again!   To quote Leo Gaje "I respect you and I respect your art, but my blade does not".:asian:


----------



## Doc (May 13, 2006)

JenniM said:
			
		

> Interesting thread - however I feel that most martial knife-defense techniques have critical, and likely fatal, deficiencies.  Many Instructors demonstrate techniques that appear to be effective, however, it is important to distinguish between what is achievable in pre-arranged demonstrations, and what is the nature of "chaos" in a real life encounter.    We practice and demonstrate defenses against a single over-extended non-retracted strike in which the attacker (never using his free hand) then complies with the attempts of the defender.  Combination random attacks are rarely addressed.   This is not a criticism of the Kenpo techniques being discussed here but blade work is just not our specialty.  I have studied some blade work outside of the Kenpo realm and man did it open my eyes to the "mentality" of training with blades, I've trained in Kenpo for 25 years now and it certainly made me re-evaluate our knife techniques so I guess what I'm trying to say is don't get too bogged down with discussing specific knife techniques, if you're really interested and want the experience, go find a professional knife fighter and train with him/her - you'll never look at bladework the same again!   To quote Leo Gaje "I respect you and I respect your art, but my blade does not".:asian:


Her Majesty has spoken! Good advice. Take it.


----------



## MJS (May 13, 2006)

JenniM said:
			
		

> Interesting thread - however I feel that most martial knife-defense techniques have critical, and likely fatal, deficiencies. Many Instructors demonstrate techniques that appear to be effective, however, it is important to distinguish between what is achievable in pre-arranged demonstrations, and what is the nature of "chaos" in a real life encounter. We practice and demonstrate defenses against a single over-extended non-retracted strike in which the attacker (never using his free hand) then complies with the attempts of the defender. Combination random attacks are rarely addressed. This is not a criticism of the Kenpo techniques being discussed here but blade work is just not our specialty. I have studied some blade work outside of the Kenpo realm and man did it open my eyes to the "mentality" of training with blades, I've trained in Kenpo for 25 years now and it certainly made me re-evaluate our knife techniques so I guess what I'm trying to say is don't get too bogged down with discussing specific knife techniques, if you're really interested and want the experience, go find a professional knife fighter and train with him/her - you'll never look at bladework the same again! To quote Leo Gaje "I respect you and I respect your art, but my blade does not".:asian:


 
Well said and I agree!  This was one of the reasons why I started this thread..to break down the various knife defenses, talking about other options that the attacker has, other than just trying to hit us with the blade, such as the other hand, as you mentioned.  

I've heard two methods of thinking, when talking to different people.  One group who states that the majority of folks that attack us, probably won't be a trained person.  The other group who states that we won't know the skill level of the person attacking us, so therefore, why not train for the worst scenario.  Personally, I tend to lean more towards the second group.

Mike


----------



## JenniM (May 13, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> Well said and I agree!  This was one of the reasons why I started this thread..to break down the various knife defenses, talking about other options that the attacker has, other than just trying to hit us with the blade, such as the other hand, as you mentioned.
> 
> I've heard two methods of thinking, when talking to different people.  One group who states that the majority of folks that attack us, probably won't be a trained person.  The other group who states that we won't know the skill level of the person attacking us, so therefore, why not train for the worst scenario.  Personally, I tend to lean more towards the second group.
> 
> Mike



Good plan!!    The best chance you have to be able to deal with an knife-weilding attacker is to become the attacker and study the mentality and methods of knife fighting - then I believe you will be able to identify very quickly the skill level (or not!) of your assailant and know what you are dealing with.    The thing is that blades are so easily concealed and practical to carry at all times, it is legal if chosen accordingly, you can carry several knives with ease and they are easy to obtain.    They have to be a consideration when dealing with a potential assailant,  and you have to be totally switched on .    Put yourself in the position of predator for a day and identify all those around you in your everyday life who you would class as a potential "Victim" - this is a very interesting exercise to do and certainly brings home the number of people out there on the streets who are potential "Victims" to anyone in predatory mode - add a blade to the scenario and the ease with which you could just walk past someone, slice them and disappear into the crowd.....scary stuff!!     Here in the UK we have a lot of knife crimes, sadly it appears they are on the increase and from reports it appears they range from single stab wounds either in pub brawls or muggings on the street to frenzied attacks from psychologically disturbed persons.    Anyway I'm rambling on.....lol!!  I wish you luck and success with your bladework!!!! :asian:


----------



## JenniM (May 13, 2006)

Doc said:
			
		

> Her Majesty has spoken! Good advice. Take it.



:wavey: x x


----------



## Doc (May 13, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> I've heard two methods of thinking, when talking to different people.  One group who states that the majority of folks that attack us, probably won't be a trained person.  The other group who states that we won't know the skill level of the person attacking us, so therefore, why not train for the worst scenario.  Personally, I tend to lean more towards the second group.
> Mike


Well I, and even Mr. Parker had a much different perspective. He did extensive research and training with professional law enforcement personnel, and I as well using my own personal experience as a base. 

According to Ed Parker Sr. "... the trained knife fighter scenario is strickly a fantasy..." concocted to justify what initially was not even a part of the self defense philosophy of Ed Parker's Kenpo-Karate. Knives were introduced as a weapon form strickly for tournament competition because students demanded it. In the original system, (commercial motion or otherwise) there was not one knife scenario presented as a technique. Guns and clubs, yes, knives no. Skilled Knife fighters do not square off because there are no winners, and they know this. Therefore the overwhelming majority of knife assaults are unskilled downward plunging. All other knife assaults are defensive slashing.

In this country, if you encounter a 'skilled knife fighter,' he is propbably assuming the role of assasin and he will attack you surreptitiously and you will never see in coming. More than likely he will attack you from behind, immobilize you with one hand and bury the blade with the other.

In thirty years of confrontation with wanted criminal and street people, I've only had a knife drawn on me once. I venture to say I've had a lot more confrontations then anyone who doesn't do law enforcement for a living.

Instead of entertaining fantasies of ninja jumping out of trees with bladed weapons as you come out of the Circle K/Seven Eleven, perhaps we should all get the same understanding of just how we're supoosed to make that dam neutral bow stable. This my small rant, directed at no one in particular.

Just a thought, but what the hell do I know.


----------



## JenniM (May 13, 2006)

Doc said:
			
		

> Skilled Knife fighters do not square off because there are no winners, and they know this. Therefore the overwhelming majority of knife assaults are unskilled downward plunging. All other knife assaults are defensive slashing.
> 
> In this country, if you encounter a 'skilled knife fighter,' he is propbably assuming the role of assasin and he will attack you surreptitiously and you will never see in coming. More than likely he will attack you from behind, immobilize you with one hand and bury the blade with the other.



I agree with regard to the Skilled Knife Fighters and I can only speak for here in the UK that the majority of knife assaults are unskilled by mindless thugs!   The execution of their strikes I cannot comment on.

Unfortunately the news headlining today here in the UK is in relation to an off-duty policewoman who was viciously knifed when she ventured out into the street outside of her home to investigate a disburbance, she tragically died in her husband's arms - the post-mortem revealed that she had died from a stab wound to the top of her left groin, hitting the femoral artery - another senseless attack here in the UK, a spokesperson from the Police Campaign Group "Protect" said "*Knife crime is clearly out of control on the streets of Britain - the sooner the Government and the judiciary wake up to this, the better for us all" * - Sad news but one that is unfortunately for us in the UK on the increase and one that I fear this poor lady could have done little about!- :asian:


----------



## Michael Billings (May 13, 2006)

Not just the UK, in the Netherlands two box cutters with a coin taped between them with duct or electrical tape, is the gang banger weapon of choice.  You get a cut to the face that cannot be sutured together without leaving a serious scar (the two parallel cuts several millimeters apart.)

My only knife fight, the attack was a slashing thrust, I used the back of my hand and did get a cut on the retraction.  It only took 3 stitches between my fingers, but boy it pissed me off, and I would have had plenty of time to maim, injure, or kill him had my skill set and age not been what they were.   I got the disarm but was bleeding like a stuck pig.

You can train to learn to use the knife, but do not be under the illusion that learning that is the best way of learning knife defense.  It gives you a good perspective, but you are only honing your own skills unless you practice empty hand against, knife.  I have lots of friends that do Petit-Tirsa or Serrak.  They think they have good hands, but the Kenpo black belt who gets his guru under Gage or another real knife fighter uses his Kenpo to do the empty hand self-defense.  It is really neat to watch someone who has both and see what has evolved from the techniques we do have.  None of the techniques survived as written, but many principles and concepts are the same.  Understanding reverse and returning motion, point of origin, contouring, supressing checks, closing the gap or staying out of range, zones of sanctuary, etc., are all part of a skilled practitioner's knife defense ... regardless of art.  

OK, I am off my soapbox.

-Michael


----------



## MJS (May 13, 2006)

Doc said:
			
		

> Well I, and even Mr. Parker had a much different perspective. He did extensive research and training with professional law enforcement personnel, and I as well using my own personal experience as a base.
> 
> According to Ed Parker Sr. "... the trained knife fighter scenario is strickly a fantasy..." concocted to justify what initially was not even a part of the self defense philosophy of Ed Parker's Kenpo-Karate. Knives were introduced as a weapon form strickly for tournament competition because students demanded it. In the original system, (commercial motion or otherwise) there was not one knife scenario presented as a technique. Guns and clubs, yes, knives no. Skilled Knife fighters do not square off because there are no winners, and they know this. Therefore the overwhelming majority of knife assaults are unskilled downward plunging. All other knife assaults are defensive slashing.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks for the reply Doc.  I guess I'm just looking at it from the perspective of not assuming anything.  You're right, chances are, the person we're facing, be it empty hand or weapon, may not be a pro-boxer, MMA cage fighter or Filipino master.  However, just like a new student in a MA class, those are the ones that I'm a bit more cautious with, compared to a Black Belt or upper ranked student, who has more control.  The untrained ones have the tendancy to be a bit more unpredictable.


----------



## jazkiljok (May 14, 2006)

Doc said:
			
		

> E) None of the above.



oddly, doesn't seem to be anyone here to disagree.

thank you for the response.


----------



## Doc (May 14, 2006)

JenniM said:
			
		

> I agree with regard to the Skilled Knife Fighters and I can only speak for here in the UK that the majority of knife assaults are unskilled by mindless thugs!   The execution of their strikes I cannot comment on.
> 
> Unfortunately the news headlining today here in the UK is in relation to an off-duty policewoman who was viciously knifed when she ventured out into the street outside of her home to investigate a disburbance, she tragically died in her husband's arms - the post-mortem revealed that she had died from a stab wound to the top of her left groin, hitting the femoral artery - another senseless attack here in the UK, a spokesperson from the Police Campaign Group "Protect" said "*Knife crime is clearly out of control on the streets of Britain - the sooner the Government and the judiciary wake up to this, the better for us all" * - Sad news but one that is unfortunately for us in the UK on the increase and one that I fear this poor lady could have done little about!- :asian:


Doesn't matter what you do, bad people will find something to do bad things with. Guns, knives, box cutters, ice picks, or a broken beer bottle. We had a homicide once where a woman was beat to death with a coke bottle, and it never broke.


----------



## Seig (May 17, 2006)

As a Kenpo instructor, I find myself having to defend myself against media hype (more than anything else and certainly more times than Ihave been attacked physically) about the newest, latest, greatest thing. I now have a standard defense, "Oh yeah, let's see it."
I'm still teaching Kenpo.


----------

