# Can you kill some one with their own nose??



## myusername (Dec 22, 2008)

Hello folks,

I was having a chat with a friend at work this lunch time who did martial arts when he was at school. He was informed by his instructor (5th Dan, Karate) that if you smacked somebody hard enough in the nose you can send their nose right through their brain, thus immediately killing them. I disputed this as when I was working on striking points in my jujutsu class I remembered that my instructor made a point of dimissing this "killer strike" as a myth. He argued that it is cartilage and as such would just be extremely painful but would not be strong enough to pierce the brain. Obviously at this stage it is just my instructor's word over his. So I am throwing the question out to the experts!

I know that if you hit anybody in the head hard enough they may die anyway but I am specifically referring to the idea behind this strike of the nose piercing the brain.

Here is Bruce Willis in the "Last Boy Scout" performing the strike (1.47mins in)

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=XvIVe28-T_0

*So good people.........

Is this a martial art myth or not?*


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## Nolerama (Dec 22, 2008)

I've been told by doctor friends that it's a myth. What happens is that you fracture someone's nose and the cartilage and/or give them a severe concussion.


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## hkfuie (Dec 22, 2008)

I decided not to argue over this one with a doctor I know.  Maybe he's right and it is true, but I am buying the story that it is physically impossible.


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## Tez3 (Dec 22, 2008)

Noleramas correct, it's cartilege and won't pierce the brain. Look at skulls there's never a 'nose' on them. You'll break their nose and make them quite annoyed!


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## Nolerama (Dec 22, 2008)

If someone hit me with, say, an upward, open palm and it shattered my nose and face, I would definitely be severely demoralized. But then again, I'd do the Tyler Durden thing and try to take mount on my opponent and bleed a lot on that person while screaming "You don't know where i've been!!" and laughing hysterically. But that's just me.


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## LuckyKBoxer (Dec 22, 2008)

I have asked a few doctors their opinion on it, and they all said emphatically that it was a myth.

on the other hand I have never seen a report, news story, or anything that has shown that anyone was killed by this.

In theory if you smash a persons face hard enough and break the actual bone in a way that shatters it and pushes it into the brain it is possible, but not like they show in the movies in my opinion.
Hard to say something is impossible, as it only takes once to prove you wrong. Improbably is a definite maybe though LOL


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## Tez3 (Dec 22, 2008)

I remember this coming up on here before and I remember someone posting that if you smashed the nose in with the butt of a rifle it would kill you! which it would! Hands up please who that was!


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## myusername (Dec 22, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> I remember this coming up on here before and I remember someone posting that if you smashed the nose in with the butt of a rifle it would kill you! which it would! Hands up please who that was!



Bugger, sorry folks I should have done a search!


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## Tez3 (Dec 22, 2008)

I can't remember if it was the subject of a thread or just came up in one, I think it was maybe in one of the martial arts myths ones?


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## MA-Caver (Dec 22, 2008)

Am not sure but Myth Busters worked on this one and debunked it hard-core. 

Like Tez sez... look at the skeletal structure of the human skull... there is nothing hard enough to pierce the bone... 

You'd think MA-ist everywhere had outgrown this myth.


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## myusername (Dec 22, 2008)

MA-Caver said:


> You'd think MA-ist everywhere had outgrown this myth.



To be fair to the guy's old instructor. The chap I was talking to hasn't trained since he was at school so we would be talking the 1980's when he would have given out this info to my pal.

Funny thing, My friend seemed slightly suspicious when I dismissed this as a myth. Don't think he quite believed me, but I might print this thread out and show him!


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## hkfuie (Dec 22, 2008)

If it were true we'd probably have heard some story somewhere of someone being prosecuted for killing someone this way.


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## kidswarrior (Dec 22, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> I remember this coming up on here before and I remember someone posting that if you smashed the nose in with the butt of a rifle it would kill you! which it would!


Good point, Tez. But essentially caving someone's face in with a blunt instrument would damage/kill them for  different reasons than (the improbable odds of) driving a splinter into their brain.

When I shatter this myth in class, my teenage students look at me like I've just told them there's no Santa.  Kinda like when I tell them they don't have to register their hands with the police: 'but my stepfather/uncle/homie told me he's registered cuz he's so dangerous the police will call SWAT if he even gets pulled over in a traffic stop.' :lol:


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## Tez3 (Dec 22, 2008)

Found it!

It was Master Jay S Penfil and I quote

_"The strike to the nose that forced the bone up into the brain was in fact a real technique that was taught and worked consistently in military engagements

Of course, it worked consistently when the strike was made with the butt of a rifle, not simply a hand"_


I imagine the bone forced up was probably the entire front of the skull caving in!


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## David Weatherly (Dec 22, 2008)

I still hear a lot of martial artist that believe this is a killing strike.  A basic study of the structure of the body proves otherwise.  Plus, as someone pointed out, I've never heard of anyone actually being killed with this strike.

David


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## terryl965 (Dec 22, 2008)

I believe in Dragonball Z Guko killed a saren with this strike but then the saren came back after a lay off.


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## kidswarrior (Dec 22, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> I believe in Dragonball Z Guko killed a saren with this strike but then the saren came back after a lay off.


Wow, came back after a long layoff? Musta had a good union. :lol:


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## jks9199 (Dec 22, 2008)

Is it theoretically possible that an upwardly directed strike to the bottom of the nose/lower face could kill someone?  Sure.  I can think of a couple of possible mechanisms.  Is it because of bone shards being driven into the brain?  I doubt it; others have covered this pretty well.  Maybe, just possibly, if everything worked out just right... but the more likely result is a broken nose.

Yet I've had people argue with me that their "self defense class" teacher told them this, so it's gotta be true!  Physiology, common sense... even the utter lack of anyone apparently ever dying this way doesn't deter them!  :shrug:


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## Jade Tigress (Dec 22, 2008)

myusername said:


> To be fair to the guy's old instructor. The chap I was talking to hasn't trained since he was at school *so we would be talking the 1980's when he would have given out this info to my pal.*



This myth has apparently been around forever because I remember hearing it when I was a kid in the '70's.


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## Drac (Dec 22, 2008)

Jade Tigress said:


> This myth has apparently been around forever because I remember hearing it when I was a kid in the '70's.


 
Same here...


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## Tez3 (Dec 22, 2008)

Jade Tigress said:


> This myth has apparently been around forever because I remember hearing it when I was a kid in the '70's.


 
Now I'm depressed...I heard it as an _adult_ in the '70's


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## kenpofighter (Dec 22, 2008)

I know in kenpo we do a teck. called "raining claw" where we strike down on the opponents nose with a left heel palm and  shoot our right horizontal punch up straight in line with their nose. The heel palm breaks the bone in the nose at the top and the punch shoves the broken bone up inside the brain. This was the way I was taught to kill someone with a punch to the nose. A two step process.


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## Gordon Nore (Dec 22, 2008)

Actually, it was my instructor who told me it was a myth. He was teaching the heel-palm strike and explained what not a life-threatening move.

However, if you tore the guy's nose off and forced it down his throat, that might to the trick. :uhyeah:


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## Cryozombie (Dec 23, 2008)

The Question:

Can you kill some one with their own nose?? 

The Answer:

Yep.  Happens all the time.  Granted it's usually because they stuck too much coke up it, and not because that "tiny bone" breaks off and shoots thru the brain. 

*shrug*


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## Tez3 (Dec 23, 2008)

kenpofighter said:


> I know in kenpo we do a teck. called "raining claw" where we strike down on the opponents nose with a left heel palm and shoot our right horizontal punch up straight in line with their nose. The heel palm breaks the bone in the nose at the top and the punch shoves the broken bone up inside the brain. This was the way I was taught to kill someone with a punch to the nose. A two step process.


 

Ok I'll point it out. there is no bone in the nose. It's cartilege. Look at the X Ray.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinus_cavity


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## elder999 (Dec 23, 2008)

Ya know, I don't like answering questions like this. Goes against my better judgement. However, since several people have pointed out that "sending bone shards from the nose into the brain" is a myth, an anatomical impossibility, I'll add that blows to the nose, including some described in this thread, _can_ prove to be fatal.Any blow to the cranium can. There are a few mechanisms of death through blows to the nose (including the dreaded "coke stroke" :lol: ), one being a basal skull fracture and/or subdural hematoma from a blow just _below_ the nose. Death wouldn't be anything like instantaneous, though, and you'd have to be able to hit really, _*really*_ hard for it to do this. There are other mechanisms of death from a blow to the nose, but these are even more reliant on vagaries in anatomical structure. Death _can_result from a blow to the nose, included the dread "James Bond upward palm-heel", but the mechanism of death is going to be skull fracture, shock transmitted to the brain, or ruptured blood vessels-maybe a couple of others not worth mentioning here.With that said, it's also worth pointing out that a lot of this is phenotype dependent-some people have more cartilage for their nose, and it's attached somewhat better or worse. People also have slight differences in skull construction. What winds up killing someone might just be enough to piss someone else off-in regards to this particular target area.Hitting the nose has a high _effect_reliability-it's probably gonna hurt, and take some of the fight out of the average assailant, but it has a relatively low risk for fatality..it could kill, though.Needless to say, if you want someone dead, there are easier, more reliable ways.......

.......a _*gun*_ for instance..:lol:

(God, I've been hearing this one-and reading it in novels-since the 60's....at least I was still a kid, though...:lol: )


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## Tez3 (Dec 23, 2008)

elder999 said:


> Ya know, I don't like answering questions like this. Goes against my better judgement. However, since several people have pointed out that "sending bone shards from the nose into the brain" is a myth, an anatomical impossibility, I'll add that blows to the nose, including some described in this thread, _can_ prove to be fatal. There are a few mechanisms of death through blows to the nose (including the dreaded "coke stroke" :lol: ), one being a basal skull fracture and/or subdural hematoma from a blow just _below_ the nose. Death wouldn't be anything like instantaneous, though, and you'd have to be able to hit really, _*really*_ hard for it to do this. There are other mechanisms of death from a blow to the nose, but these are even more reliant on vagaries in anatomical structure. Death _can_result from a blow to the nose, included the dread "James Bond upward palm-heel", but the mechanism of death is going to be skull fracture, shock transmitted to the brain, or ruptured blood vessels-maybe a couple of others not worth mentioning here.With that said, it's also worth pointing out that a lot of this is phenotype dependent-some people have more cartilage for their nose, and it's attached somewhat better or worse. People also have slight differences in skull construction. What winds up killing someone might just be enough to piss someone else off-in regards to this particular target area.Needless to say, if you want someone dead, there are easier, more reliable ways.......
> 
> .......a _*gun*_ for instance..:lol:
> 
> (God, I've been hearing this one-and reading it in novels-since the 60's....*at least I was still a kid, though*...:lol: )


 

and may the bird of paradise fly up your nose sir! :uhyeah:

Getting hit just under the nose really really hurts! My nose is very bendy these days, same as my ankles, wrists and elbow joints!


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## elder999 (Dec 23, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> and may the bird of paradise fly up your nose sir! :uhyeah:!


 

Hey, I said it was the *60's*......and, anyone who has passing familiarity with my biography knows that I was _*never* really_ a kid, sad to say.....


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## Tez3 (Dec 23, 2008)

elder999 said:


> Hey, I said it was the *60's*......and, anyone who has passing familiarity with my biography knows that I was _*never* really_ a kid, sad to say.....


 
ah but you remember that song lol! 
talking of the nose, do you do the C clamp?


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## punisher73 (Dec 23, 2008)

elder999 said:


> Ya know, I don't like answering questions like this. Goes against my better judgement. However, since several people have pointed out that "sending bone shards from the nose into the brain" is a myth, an anatomical impossibility, I'll add that blows to the nose, including some described in this thread, _can_ prove to be fatal.Any blow to the cranium can. There are a few mechanisms of death through blows to the nose (including the dreaded "coke stroke" :lol: ), one being a basal skull fracture and/or subdural hematoma from a blow just _below_ the nose. Death wouldn't be anything like instantaneous, though, and you'd have to be able to hit really, _*really*_ hard for it to do this. There are other mechanisms of death from a blow to the nose, but these are even more reliant on vagaries in anatomical structure. Death _can_result from a blow to the nose, included the dread "James Bond upward palm-heel", but the mechanism of death is going to be skull fracture, shock transmitted to the brain, or ruptured blood vessels-maybe a couple of others not worth mentioning here.With that said, it's also worth pointing out that a lot of this is phenotype dependent-some people have more cartilage for their nose, and it's attached somewhat better or worse. People also have slight differences in skull construction. What winds up killing someone might just be enough to piss someone else off-in regards to this particular target area.Hitting the nose has a high _effect_reliability-it's probably gonna hurt, and take some of the fight out of the average assailant, but it has a relatively low risk for fatality..it could kill, though.Needless to say, if you want someone dead, there are easier, more reliable ways.......
> 
> .......a _*gun*_ for instance..:lol:
> 
> (God, I've been hearing this one-and reading it in novels-since the 60's....at least I was still a kid, though...:lol: )


 
Very good post.  Saved me the time.  I just taught some teenagers some defensive tactics as part of their law enforcement class and one of them brought up this exact topic, and I had to go through and explain why it couldn't happen.

I think this myth will never die, just because the average person doesn't know enough about inflicting trauma and basic physiology to know that it can't happen.


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## Kreth (Dec 23, 2008)

kenpofighter said:


> I know in kenpo we do a teck. called "raining claw" where we strike down on the opponents nose with a left heel palm and  shoot our right horizontal punch up straight in line with their nose. The heel palm breaks the bone in the nose at the top and the punch shoves the broken bone up inside the brain. This was the way I was taught to kill someone with a punch to the nose. A two step process.


Aside from the fact that you're doing a "horizontal" strike in an upwards direction, which would by definition make it a vertical strike, it's a myth. There is no "nose bone."


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## morph4me (Dec 23, 2008)

I suspect that if you hit someone with a palm heel strike to the nose, which in turn drives his head back, and he falls with his head in that position, he could possibly fracture his skull and die of cerebral hemorragh or something, or maybe break his neck somewhere in the process. Does that count? (disclaimer: I'm not a doctor and I don't play one on TV)


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## elder999 (Dec 23, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> ah but you remember that song lol!


 
Yeah, I remember that one-hell, I do it at parties sometimes, along with a pretty mean version of _El Paso_-at least, my friends say it's mean; the room is generally pretty liquored up by the time I get around to it, though...:lol:



Tez3 said:


> talking of the nose, do you do the C clamp?


 
'fraid I'm not sure what you mean, Tez-is that some British dance from the...._er_....sixties? :lol:



> Originally Posted by *kenpofighter*
> 
> 
> _I know in kenpo we do a teck. called "raining claw" where we strike down on the opponents nose with a left heel palm and shoot our right horizontal punch up straight in line with their nose. The heel palm breaks the bone in the nose at the top and the punch shoves the broken bone up inside the brain. This was the way I was taught to kill someone with a punch to the nose. A two step process._


 
Think it would work better with the punch first, then the palm heel, but no broken bone up inside the brain, and maybe a dead guy, and maybe a half-blind guy, and maybe a just pissed off guy. Most likely half blind, least likely dead.....:lol:

_Raining claw, _ huh? Doesn't sound like any kind of "claw" at all, but oh-kay...:lol:

Here's the thing, though-several people have posted that it's a myth. How many pages you wanna bet before someone else chimes in with their own version of _Sensei says...._ or _we do a technique..._ :lfao:


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## KempoGuy06 (Dec 23, 2008)

myusername said:


> Hello folks,
> 
> I was having a chat with a friend at work this lunch time who did martial arts when he was at school. He was informed by his instructor (5th Dan, Karate) that if you smacked somebody hard enough in the nose you can send their nose right through their brain, thus immediately killing them. I disputed this as when I was working on striking points in my jujutsu class I remembered that my instructor made a point of dimissing this "killer strike" as a myth. He argued that it is cartilage and as such would just be extremely painful but would not be strong enough to pierce the brain. Obviously at this stage it is just my instructor's word over his. So I am throwing the question out to the experts!
> 
> ...


ive done this 3 or 4 times it works people. On a similar note I saw some pigs flying the other day...

B


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## Kosho Gakkusei (Dec 23, 2008)

Sure!  I've killed plenty of people that way.

Wait... does it count if it was a video game?


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## Tez3 (Dec 23, 2008)

elder999 said:


> Yeah, I remember that one-hell, I do it at parties sometimes, along with a pretty mean version of _El Paso_-at least, my friends say it's mean; the room is generally pretty liquored up by the time I get around to it, though...:lol:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

C clamp = you are behind the person who needs to be removed or otherwise detained, you put your first finger of one hand, use first knuckle from top, under their nose on the cartilege dividing the nose, ( I know but bear with me) and the thumb of the same hand on the jaw just at the back of the jaw 'hinge' and pull backwards. They squeal with pain and are compliant! You may have to watch they can't get a bite at you but pulling the nose backwards plus the pain from the thumb pressing in should deter them. 
if anyone can fill in the proper medical terms for this bits of body please do!


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## elder999 (Dec 23, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> C clamp = you are behind the person who needs to be removed or otherwise detained, you put your first finger of one hand, use first knuckle from top, under their nose on the cartilege dividing the nose, ( I know but bear with me) and the thumb of the same hand on the jaw just at the back of the jaw 'hinge' and pull backwards. They squeal with pain and are compliant! You may have to watch they can't get a bite at you but pulling the nose backwards plus the pain from the thumb pressing in should deter them.
> if anyone can fill in the proper medical terms for this bits of body please do!


 

That sounds nifty. I liked to just grab the upper lip and twist, given a chance-from the front. :lol: 

If I were behind someone, I'd just wrap them up in a choke, put them to sleep, drag them out and let them wake up on the sidewalk. These days, though, there's not much call for that sort of thing in my life...if there were, I'd probably just shoot them.

No patience, that's me. :lfao:


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## DavidCC (Dec 23, 2008)

"Can you kill some one with their own nose?? "

well, I was thinking, if you cut it iff, bronzed it, tied it to the end of a cord, and used it like a bolo, you might be able to give them a fractured skull with that.  

or maybe you could use their severed nose to asphyxiate them.


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## Tez3 (Dec 23, 2008)

elder999 said:


> That sounds nifty. I liked to just grab the upper lip and twist, given a chance-from the front. :lol:
> 
> If I were behind someone, I'd just wrap them up in a choke, put them to sleep, drag them out and let them wake up on the sidewalk. These days, though, there's not much call for that sort of thing in my life...if there were, I'd probably just shoot them.
> 
> No patience, that's me. :lfao:


 

Well I have the option to shoot as well but the paperwork afterwards takes so long! It's just a nice little move, I find it hard to drag large unconcious men out being fairly small and I must admit I love hearing them squeal rofl!


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## tellner (Dec 23, 2008)

'Bout the only way to kill someone with his own nose is to hold it and his mouth shut until he suffocates.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Dec 23, 2008)

I had someone take my nose and gave me some sort of facial open the pores. They pinches and twisted my nose left to right and said don't worry your nose is all cartilage.

I suppose killing someone with a strike to the nose may be cause by

Hemophilia
Brain hemorrhage
Neck injury 
Sinus infection causing Meningitis

Though some of these are a stretch but they are more realistic than blunt trauma to the nose causing death.


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## jks9199 (Dec 23, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> C clamp = you are behind the person who needs to be removed or otherwise detained, you put your first finger of one hand, use first knuckle from top, under their nose on the cartilege dividing the nose, ( I know but bear with me) and the thumb of the same hand on the jaw just at the back of the jaw 'hinge' and pull backwards. They squeal with pain and are compliant! You may have to watch they can't get a bite at you but pulling the nose backwards plus the pain from the thumb pressing in should deter them.
> if anyone can fill in the proper medical terms for this bits of body please do!


It's the philtrum.  Or at least that's what I call it.  The pressure point that you're talking about is the nasopharongeal, I believe.

Personally, I like the temporal-mandibular better, at the end of jaw, under the ear.  Put a single knuckle or the end of a closed ASP there, and most folks stand right up for you...  :eg:


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## myusername (Dec 23, 2008)

Thanks you all for contributions, you martial talkers never let me down!!


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## Big Don (Dec 23, 2008)

> *Can you kill some one with their own nose??*


Sure, if you cut it off and beat them long enough. Small nosed people are going to take a loooooong time...


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## theletch1 (Dec 23, 2008)

I could kill them with their own nose if I'd just had a good meal of curry! :fart:


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 23, 2008)

*Re: Can you kill some one with their own nose??* 

Yes.  If I cut off an assailant's nose and stuff it into their air passage, I can kill them with it.

Daniel


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## bluekey88 (Dec 23, 2008)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> *Re: Can you kill some one with their own nose??*
> 
> Yes. If I cut off an assailant's nose and stuff it into their air passage, I can kill them with it.
> 
> Daniel


 
I had that exact same thought


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## Kosho Gakkusei (Dec 23, 2008)

theletch1 said:


> I could kill them with their own nose if I'd just had a good meal of curry! :fart:


 
I think a guy that came into my office must of tried this.  

When whatever it was that he released from his body reached my nose - the stench was so bad that I wanted to kill myself.


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