# SKK- Now and Then



## MJS (Mar 13, 2007)

Ok, I know we have some long time members in the SKK system, here on this forum.  I would be interested in hearing about any differences in the way techniques, classes, kata, etc. were taught back then, compared to present day.  Were things more hard core back then and changed with the times or have things pretty much stayed the same?

Mike


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## 14 Kempo (Mar 13, 2007)

I began in the SKK system in 1985, so does that make me a old-timer?

Back then things were different, IMO. One major difference could be that I was with FVSSD back then, and I'm with USSD now. Classes were definately smaller and a bit more hard-core. If I remember correctly, I worked out mainly with ex-athletes, peace officers and military personnel. We had special workouts on Friday nights, no sensei, Brown belt and above, and worked with each other in open sparring, which I believe helped my fighting tremendously -- that doesn't seem to happen today.

Another difference I see, and again this could be a difference between FVSSD and USSD, is that the combos/DMs were a bit meaner back when. Example being the end of #15, in yester-year we used an iron palm to slam the opponent to the ground ... today we simply step back and let them fall ... still effective, but a bit meaner in years past.

When push comes to shove, I believe that FVSSD in the 80's was more streetwise. Today, with USSD, the system seems to be a bit more forms oriented. Don't get me wrong, if you ask for more streetwise, at least where I train, and at higher ranks, you get it, once a certain level of control is attained ... we have no ego.

One of the similarities, and I see this as a similarty across all arts, is that bully types don't stick with the arts, they remain street fighters. I believe it is the hard work, discipline, respect and dedication that does not appeal to them.

There's my two cents for the day ...


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## shaolin ninja 4 (Mar 13, 2007)

Theres a villaris school run by a 5th dan in San Diego www.isdc.net


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## dianhsuhe (Mar 13, 2007)

Hmmm...Good luck with that!


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## 14 Kempo (Mar 13, 2007)

shaolin ninja 4 said:


> Theres a villaris school run by a 5th dan in San Diego www.isdc.net


 
Yes, I am aware of that. It is not pure Villari, it has an affilation, but they teach Jujitsu, Judo, Muay Tai and other variations of Kempo as well. There training does seem to be geared a bit more towards fighting rather than forms based. Although I have not yet participated in a class, I have observed a Judo class with a guest Instructor and a Kempo workout. I noticed some rather obvious differences in the combos and forms for that matter.

Anyway, I do plan to try a class or two shortly at ISDC.


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## LawDog (Mar 13, 2007)

The SKK system is no different than any other martial art. Like many other systems it has gone through periods of growing pains. Like all other Kenpo systems, the SKK has had internal splits. I will break down what I have seen over the past few years. This will be the short version.
Past:
Most, not all of the early SKK schools were located in Massachusetts and Rhode Island. The first schools were all of the hard core type. The reason for this was the first group evolved directly from Professor Nick Cerio. Everyone should understand that the first group of SKK schools were small in number, it started with one then moved up to several. This is why all of the early SKK schools were known as hard core. Over time most of these original schools kept their old school standards. 
After the passing of a few generations things began changing. The further removed from the core group, in time and distance, the more individual schools began to change. 
It was not the system that weakened it was a few of the school owners standards. Many of the early SKK schools had a very large student base, money could be made, this is where the problems started. Many kept their old school standards and still made money while others branched off in search of the great green god.
Today:
The SKK system has spread far and wide. There are hundreds of SKK schools now. Many of these schools follow the old school standards, others do not. It is not the SKK system itself that has changed, it is what some of the individual instructors are doing and what they have done to the SKK system.
Today, because of the shear number of SKK schools, the SKK system cannot be judged by it's entirety, instead it is being judged by it's regional flavor. 
The problem is not with the SKK system, it falls with the leadership within the various SKK organizations.
:ultracool


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## Matt (Mar 13, 2007)

LawDog said:


> The problem is not with the SKK system, it falls with the leadership within the various SKK organizations.
> :ultracool



There were many good things said in that post, but this one line pretty much says it all.


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## Matt (Mar 13, 2007)

14 Kempo said:


> I began in the SKK system in 1985, so does that make me a old-timer?



Sort of. You are in my generation, but both of us came in after the 'material explosion'. Things were different in 70-74, and then in 75-81. We're kind of 'third wave'. 



> Another difference I see, and again this could be a difference between FVSSD and USSD, is that the combos/DMs were a bit meaner back when. Example being the end of #15, in yester-year we used an iron palm to slam the opponent to the ground ... today we simply step back and let them fall ... still effective, but a bit meaner in years past.



I still teach that as at least an option. I miss that one 



> When push comes to shove, I believe that FVSSD in the 80's was more streetwise. Today, with USSD, the system seems to be a bit more forms oriented. Don't get me wrong, if you ask for more streetwise, at least where I train, and at higher ranks, you get it, once a certain level of control is attained ... we have no ego.
> 
> One of the similarities, and I see this as a similarty across all arts, is that bully types don't stick with the arts, they remain street fighters. I believe it is the hard work, discipline, respect and dedication that does not appeal to them.
> 
> There's my two cents for the day ...




I'm not sure it was more streetwise. What we know now, regarding weapon defense, groundwork, etc. far outstrips what we knew then. What was there , however, was a willingness to push the students by the instructors, and the students were the folks who were ready to be pushed. A level of intensity that has moved to the MMA crowd.  The student body has expanded, and the influx includes a much more diverse population. Some folks are there to yell in their pajamas, and schools accomodate them. 

Matt


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## Matt (Mar 13, 2007)

MJS said:


> Ok, I know we have some long time members in the SKK system, here on this forum.  I would be interested in hearing about any differences in the way techniques, classes, kata, etc. were taught back then, compared to present day.  Were things more hard core back then and changed with the times or have things pretty much stayed the same?
> 
> Mike



I feel that things have changed over the years. However, even starting in 1990, I feel I came in after the real 'hard core days'. Many things that were done during my early training would never be done in a commercial school now (broken ribs, contact hard enough to tear the foam sparring gear and cut), but even so, there's no comparison to the training style of Nick Cerio, George Pesare, or Sijo Victor Gascon.  Maybe Joe Shuras or Lawdog might be more qualified to answer, as they were there more 'back in the day'. There have been several 'evolutions' of SK, or even 'revolutions' given the magnitude of the changes. SK is still evolving. There are many of us out there now (RevIV, Marlon, and others) who are 'getting back to our roots', kicking up the intensity, and trying to return the reputation for effectiveness that SK once enjoyed. 

Matt


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## RevIV (Mar 14, 2007)

Matt said:


> I feel that things have changed over the years. However, even starting in 1990, I feel I came in after the real 'hard core days'. Many things that were done during my early training would never be done in a commercial school now (broken ribs, contact hard enough to tear the foam sparring gear and cut), but even so, there's no comparison to the training style of Nick Cerio, George Pesare, or Sijo Victor Gascon. Maybe Joe Shuras or Lawdog might be more qualified to answer, as they were there more 'back in the day'. There have been several 'evolutions' of SK, or even 'revolutions' given the magnitude of the changes. SK is still evolving. There are many of us out there now (RevIV, Marlon, and others) who are 'getting back to our roots', kicking up the intensity, and trying to return the reputation for effectiveness that SK once enjoyed.
> 
> Matt


 
I know that my students have competed in SGM Pesare's best of the best ever since i met him.  I think thats going on 7 years now.  The first year my guys fought with all their hearts and made me proud.  We did not win much that year but we made a stand.  Prof. Shuras posted the results of one of the years tournaments in one of the threads and most of the guys in the adult div. that placed were mine.  I grew up SKK but always had my own way of thinking.  So i guess i have been bringing my guys back to their roots.  With that said, not all of my students want to enter a 9 event full contact tournament.  Because of this you see a wide range of students at the school.  Side note... I just got a email from an old student who left because we demanded to much.  He wanted to let me know he was already a green belt in another school that has only been open for 7 months..  Makes me feel good about my expectations, and proves to me what other instructors have for expectations.  no 28 classes and a rank here.
In Peace
Jesse


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## LawDog (Mar 15, 2007)

RevIV,
Did your students have a good time at this years event? How did they place?


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## Joe Shuras (Mar 16, 2007)

<P>





LawDog said:


> The SKK system is no different than any other martial art. Like many other systems it has gone through periods of growing pains. Like all other Kenpo systems, the SKK has had internal splits. I will break down what I have seen over the past few years. This will be the short version.</P>
> <P><U>Past:</U></P>
> <P>Most, not all of the early SKK schools were located in Massachusetts and Rhode Island. The first schools were all of the hard core type. The reason for this was the first group evolved directly from Professor Nick Cerio. Everyone should understand that the first group of SKK schools were small in number, it started with one then moved up to several. This is why <U>all</U> of the early SKK schools were known as hard core. Over time most of these original schools kept their old school standards. </P>
> <P>After the passing of a few generations things began changing. The further removed from the core group, in time and distance, the more individual schools began to change. </P>
> ...


</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>


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## Joe Shuras (Mar 16, 2007)

LawDog said:


> The SKK system is no different than any other martial art. Like many other systems it has gone through periods of growing pains. Like all other Kenpo systems, the SKK has had internal splits. I will break down what I have seen over the past few years. This will be the short version.
> Past:
> Most, not all of the early SKK schools were located in Massachusetts and Rhode Island. The first schools were all of the hard core type. The reason for this was the first group evolved directly from Professor Nick Cerio. Everyone should understand that the first group of SKK schools were small in number, it started with one then moved up to several. This is why all of the early SKK schools were known as hard core. Over time most of these original schools kept their old school standards.
> After the passing of a few generations things began changing. The further removed from the core group, in time and distance, the more individual schools began to change.
> ...


 
*Let me try that one again.* 

*I have to agree with that post 100 per cent. I couldn't have said it better. Believe it because it's true. - Joe*


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## Jdokan (Mar 16, 2007)

MJS said:


> Ok, I know we have some long time members in the SKK system, here on this forum. I would be interested in hearing about any differences in the way techniques, classes, kata, etc. were taught back then, compared to present day. Were things more hard core back then and changed with the times or have things pretty much stayed the same?
> 
> Mike


In speaking on my Dojo kata has improved.
Classes aren't as hard core as it related to basics...I remember doing drill sets working on 2 - 3 kicks in a night....Working them from each stance then putting them together in a sequence then changing the sequnce working it backwards....We did it and didn't complain, ask why or offer comment....I don't see that today....Is it that as we get older we're kinder on the younger generation....????
Techniques I think have gotten to be more "realistic"...Things appear to be more fight oriented...
Overall I definitley think things have changed from what I've seen and I think that's for the better....I think we're putting more better trained people out there today than what was back then.....


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## RevIV (Mar 16, 2007)

LawDog said:


> RevIV,
> Did your students have a good time at this years event? How did they place?


 
The one year that Prof. Shuras listed. under the adult mens div. the names for 1st, 2nd, and 4th were all my students.  I know for a fact that one of my students who ended up placing 3rd or 4th the following year finished 5th by .5pts this behind his classmate.  I believe he was 15 at the time.  That is one thing about SGM Pesare - if you look like an adult you better fight like an adult and that was the div. you were put in.  I knew this going into every year and so have my younger students who participated.  This particular year we had a great time.  Not to take anything away from my warriors but the first year will always be the most memorable.   we did not place much on that one, but there were some outstanding achievements to be had that day.  For one -- High scores on power knife throwing, and the best damn fight between sensei Paul and sensei Chico, one of which now runs his own school and one who is proudly serving in the Military.
In Peace,
Jesse


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## Joe Shuras (Mar 17, 2007)

Yes, Jesse is right. The first year  of the 'Best of the Best' is the most memorable and that is why I kept those results that I posted under the George Pesare thread. It was something totally new and different so as the years go on you will get better and better with it..... more comfortable. That first year (2003) my students, myself and Kathy went in blind but managed to pull out a 1st place overall win, a 2nd place win (he missed the 'overall' by a hair) and two 3rd place wins.... we were happy. This was also the year I first met Jesse and I will always remember his sportsmanship and the camaderie we developed. Like I said, it was our first year and we were new, yet Jesse took it upon himself to help one of my guys, Hector Cruz, who finally finished 3rd place. Jesse took the time to give him some pointers and the funny thing was, Hector was fighting against some of Jesse's students. Where do you see that anymore? and what does that tell you about Jesse? That's how the martial arts should be.

Matt asked about the old days, the 70's. The major difference was the intensity of the training and the 'rough & tumble'.... the contact. Anyone from that era will tell you physical contact reigned supreme and it didn't matter your gender either. A colored belt test was an ordeal and you knew you were getting a beat'n. I don't mean abuse for the fun of it...someone's ego, no, not at all, but it was an accepted part of the training to toughen you up to face the real world. I don't mean just the contact but the actual physical conditioning also. Not just the tests were rough & tumble but the classes were also, after all, they had to prepare you for the tests. 

Our first belt back then was orange and I recall when I was a brown belt, one of the students got a broken nose at his orange belt test (he later became an instructor and one of the best-Steve Linnell). Once, a student got a broken arm going up for purple belt-he quit. Another student got 13 stiches in his head in a class via a takedown-he stayed, etc., etc. Every school had these stories. 

No one even thought about lawsuits so liability wasn't a problem. As far as student retention went, the instructors really didn't care, it was like hunting. Hunters say if they didn't hunt, the deer population would starve themselves out. Back then, the classes were so full, (I guess for business reasons, I don't remember anyone being turned away at the door, lol.), some would quit anyway because they were elbow to elbow and at times there was only one instructor teaching, so with the rough & tumble, you had students quiting which kept the class sizes reasonable enough to handle. 

Another thing. Today you hear stories of students sometimes asking when they would be going up for a test and so forth. Man, back then, you didn't look forward to go up for a test. When your instructor told you were going up next week, you would swallow hard and start to worry, lol. You would go up to a fellow student and say something like: "Sh_t, I'm going up next week" and you weren't smiling. Some students would try to put it off.  In one sense, yes, you wanted to go up but you also knew what was in store for you...... 

Kids classes were one day a week, Saturday mornings. They weren't run like a daycare center either, they were good workouts but obviously nothing like the teenage/adult classes. Sparring was aggressive in the sense, there was some contact but again, you had to use some common sense with the kids. If they stayed and as they got older they progessed into the rough & tumble mode. - Joe


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## Joe Shuras (Mar 18, 2007)

As Matt stated, I believe Gm. Cunningham can also give input on this era and can confirm my above recollections of that time period and a little earlier. 

Al, here's something else I recall. The Waltham school, 450 Moody St., Fred's first studio. I almost bought that school back in early '78. Two floors, upstairs was a big weight room, showers, lots of area, rent was wicked cheap. I went down there to teach for two weeks for Pat Cronin who took the time off. He offered it to me for a song-great deal but I was still co-owner of Framingham with Craig at the time and had Milford by myself, not to mention it was a tough commute from my hometown also, so I didn't take it. Anyway, from an early picture I saw and I believe this picture was on one of Fred's early brochures, he originally called the school 'Academy of Kenpo Karate'. You could see this written on the wall in the background of one of the pictures. Do you recall this? - Joe


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## LawDog (Mar 18, 2007)

Joe,
You remember "Carzy Cronin", he seems to have become one of the forgotten ones. The Academy of Kenpo Karate, off hand I do not. I do remember that many were using that phrase ar part of their own schools name. Larry M. used, Brockton Academy of Kenpo Karate. I had a listing of the original schools somewhere. I will see if I can find it in my piles of martial arts junk. I still have the first copy of the USSD magazine, they might be listed inside somewhere.
I do remember going to a few schools for training & testing, one school was on a second floor,(it was a real dump), another school had two floors and another school was off Rt. 1, (near a movie theater).
The B.B. training was usually held at one of these locations. If I remeber right Art Singers school was on Rt.9, it was a converted gas station.
P.S.
Joe, on my own forum I wrote a small historical article concerning the USSD and the FVSSD, if you get a chance please check it out. I would be interested in your opinon on the subject.


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## Joe Shuras (Mar 18, 2007)

LawDog said:


> Joe,
> You remember "Carzy Cronin", he seems to have become one of the forgotten ones. The Academy of Kenpo Karate, off hand I do not. I do remember that many were using that phrase ar part of their own schools name. Larry M. used, Brockton Academy of Kenpo Karate. I had a listing of the original schools somewhere. I will see if I can find it in my piles of martial arts junk. I still have the first copy of the USSD magazine, they might be listed inside somewhere.
> I do remember going to a few schools for training & testing, one school was on a second floor,(it was a real dump), another school had two floors and another school was off Rt. 1, (near a movie theater).
> The B.B. training was usually held at one of these locations. If I remeber right Art Singers school was on Rt.9, it was a converted gas station.
> ...


 
LOL, yes Al, I liked Pat, good guy, Craig liked him too. I had that brochure for years with the picture in which you could see in the background: Academy of Kenpo Karate. It was the brochure with Fred's wife, Joan, on the cover doing a technique on Charlie Mattera, I remember she had a tiger claw in his face, damn, don't know where I put it but I'll keep looking.
I believe the school on route 1 you mentioned was the Dedham school which was in the rear of a Chinese restuarant (fitting, isn't it?,lol) near a movie theatre, that's where Fred relocated to after Waltham and is where I was tested for my black belt in January of '77. Yes, Art Singer ended up at the Route 9 school with John Fritz which was desiginated the 'National Headquarters'. That's where I was taking my privates in 1978. However, prior to that, Art was teaching at the Framingham school. He was there when Craig started along with Mitch Harding. I never met Mr. Harding but I was told he was a stand up guy.

Hey, I wonder if the 'real dump' you mentioned on the second floor was the original Framingham school, lol, (founded 1971), lol. It was in a very bad part of Framingham at the time, the area is now home of the notorious Kendall Street Gang. There were murders, rapes, robberies, drugs, etc. The school was on Waverly St. right over Lew Horton's Gun Shop (real fitting, lol). There were broken windows mended with duct tape and cardboard, old hardwood floors, holes in the walls, more from throwing people into them during testing then from punches or kicks, lol. Dingy bathrooms and a dark, scary parking lot which just invited criminal activity. The place wasn't good at all for a business but it surprisingly did great. Everyone had decided to leave it as it was for a good long time, we thought it gave the place character for the times, lol. In 1978 it was all done over, looked great and the neighborhood went through a revitalization period. Funny thing was, it did seem to lose it's character when this happened! Nothing was the same again! The crime and the reputation of the area, however, lingered on and the Kendall St. Gang was born sometime within, maybe, the last 5-7 years.

Thanks, I'll check out your article! - Joe


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## RevIV (Mar 18, 2007)

Joe Shuras said:


> Yes, Jesse is right. The first year of the 'Best of the Best' is the most memorable and that is why I kept those results that I posted under the George Pesare thread. It was something totally new and different so as the years go on you will get better and better with it..... more comfortable. That first year (2003) my students, myself and Kathy went in blind but managed to pull out a 1st place overall win, a 2nd place win (he missed the 'overall' by a hair) and two 3rd place wins.... we were happy. This was also the year I first met Jesse and I will always remember his sportsmanship and the camaderie we developed. Like I said, it was our first year and we were new, yet Jesse took it upon himself to help one of my guys, Hector Cruz, who finally finished 3rd place. Jesse took the time to give him some pointers and the funny thing was, Hector was fighting against some of Jesse's students. Where do you see that anymore? and what does that tell you about Jesse? That's how the martial arts should be.
> 
> Joe


 
I do remember Hector. How is he doing?  My students jaws dropped when they saw me coaching their opponents.  Thats all right, i had been to a few before and its intimidating if you have never been.  Hardest part is, that the rules seem to change every year so we would train a certain way and it would be different the next year.  SGM Pesare always has a way of throwing a curve ball.
Jesse


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## LawDog (Mar 18, 2007)

Yes, I do remember a gun shop. Your discription of the "dump" and the surrounding area fits my memory of it to a T. Of course over the last 34 - 35 years my memory of the place is some what vague. Now when I think back on the school it is probably remembered as being worse than it really was.
What ever happened to Carzy Cronin?


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## Joe Shuras (Mar 18, 2007)

LawDog said:


> Yes, I do remember a gun shop. Your discription of the "dump" and the surrounding area fits my memory of it to a T. Of course over the last 34 - 35 years my memory of the place is some what vague. Now when I think back on the school it is probably remembered as being worse than it really was.
> What ever happened to Carzy Cronin?


 
I hear ya, Al, but by today's standards, I can understand how you would remember it as a dump, lol, but it was the right school for the right area at the right time, teaching and training the right stuff, ya gotta love it......but those days are long gone. Hey, we were proud of that 'dump', lol, lots of blood, sweat & tears. Like I said, it did get a thorough facelift in 1978 but lost it's 'character' in the process, lol. 

Considering everything, the instructors kept the school clean, bathrooms, changing rooms, office. I even remember this big dust type mop in the main dojo and everyone took turns cleaning the 'tumbleweeds' of dust off the hardwood floor, lol. We had this old gray mat, I suppose it was how the mats were made for the times, but it wasn't all that great cushioning and besides, we rarely used it anyway. Hardwood floors were just that, 'HARDwood', but there is at least a little give there as compared to if it were just bare concrete. Pat Cronin, no, I don't know what every happened to him. Hope he is doing fine. - Joe


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## Joe Shuras (Mar 18, 2007)

RevIV said:


> I do remember Hector. How is he doing? My students jaws dropped when they saw me coaching their opponents. Thats all right, i had been to a few before and its intimidating if you have never been. Hardest part is, that the rules seem to change every year so we would train a certain way and it would be different the next year. SGM Pesare always has a way of throwing a curve ball.
> Jesse


 
Hector is doing fine, I'll tell him you were asking for him. What we've been doing is just letting them (students) go with the preparation they get in their regular classes plus veterans of the tournament can give newbies their input. We do have the teenage/adults review a past tournament we filmed so they know exactly what they are getting into, I think that helps somewhat. I also feel this puts less pressure and stress on them, they just show up and do their thing. They seem to all enjoy it, no complaints. They look forward to going every year.   - Joe


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## MJS (Mar 18, 2007)

14 Kempo said:


> I began in the SKK system in 1985, so does that make me a old-timer?
> 
> Back then things were different, IMO. One major difference could be that I was with FVSSD back then, and I'm with USSD now. Classes were definately smaller and a bit more hard-core. If I remember correctly, I worked out mainly with ex-athletes, peace officers and military personnel. We had special workouts on Friday nights, no sensei, Brown belt and above, and worked with each other in open sparring, which I believe helped my fighting tremendously -- that doesn't seem to happen today.


 
Personally, I'd rather have the more hard core workout, but it seems today, people are more cautious with contact.  



> Another difference I see, and again this could be a difference between FVSSD and USSD, is that the combos/DMs were a bit meaner back when. Example being the end of #15, in yester-year we used an iron palm to slam the opponent to the ground ... today we simply step back and let them fall ... still effective, but a bit meaner in years past.


 
Hey, after raking the face, hitting the chest, etc., may as well keep the iron palm IMO. 



> When push comes to shove, I believe that FVSSD in the 80's was more streetwise. Today, with USSD, the system seems to be a bit more forms oriented. Don't get me wrong, if you ask for more streetwise, at least where I train, and at higher ranks, you get it, once a certain level of control is attained ... we have no ego.


 




> One of the similarities, and I see this as a similarty across all arts, is that bully types don't stick with the arts, they remain street fighters. I believe it is the hard work, discipline, respect and dedication that does not appeal to them.
> 
> There's my two cents for the day ...


 
I agree.  Thanks for the reply. 

Mike


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## MJS (Mar 18, 2007)

Matt said:


> I'm not sure it was more streetwise. What we know now, regarding weapon defense, groundwork, etc. far outstrips what we knew then. What was there , however, was a willingness to push the students by the instructors, and the students were the folks who were ready to be pushed. A level of intensity that has moved to the MMA crowd. The student body has expanded, and the influx includes a much more diverse population. Some folks are there to yell in their pajamas, and schools accomodate them.
> 
> Matt


 
I have obviously been out of SKK for a while.  When I was training though, I didn't, at least in the school I was going to, see alot in the area of ground and weapon work.  Its good to see that its been revisited. 

Mike


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## MJS (Mar 18, 2007)

Joe Shuras said:


> Matt asked about the old days, the 70's. The major difference was the intensity of the training and the 'rough & tumble'.... the contact. Anyone from that era will tell you physical contact reigned supreme and it didn't matter your gender either. A colored belt test was an ordeal and you knew you were getting a beat'n. I don't mean abuse for the fun of it...someone's ego, no, not at all, but it was an accepted part of the training to toughen you up to face the real world. I don't mean just the contact but the actual physical conditioning also. Not just the tests were rough & tumble but the classes were also, after all, they had to prepare you for the tests.


 
Hey Joe!  Hope that all is well!  As for the above post, I agree.  I remember some of those tests, and yes, they were pretty intense.




> No one even thought about lawsuits so liability wasn't a problem.


 
Agreed.  People seem to forget that the Martial Arts involve contact.  Kinda hard to learn to defend yourself without it. 





> Another thing. Today you hear stories of students sometimes asking when they would be going up for a test and so forth.


 
I hate that.  IMO, you don't ask.  When you're ready to test, your inst. will tell you.

Mike


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## 14 Kempo (Mar 18, 2007)

MJS said:


> Hey, after raking the face, hitting the chest, etc., may as well keep the iron palm IMO.


 
LOL ... no kidding, but not using the iron palm takes out quit a lot of pain and possibly death to the opponent. Why do I say death? Well, by applying the iron palm at the end of #15 to the chest, it tends to make the opponents chin hit thier chest, then comes the ground. The back hits the ground and this causes the head to whip back down possibly splitting open the head ... possible death. Yes, racking the face, elbowing the chest area, shuto to the groin causes a lot of pain anyway, but when looking at it graphically, it is much less violent with the iron palm being left out as the finisher. 
However, IMO, the only person I would have over my knee to begin with, is my girlfriend ...


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## MJS (Mar 18, 2007)

14 Kempo said:


> LOL ... no kidding, but not using the iron palm takes out quit a lot of pain and possibly death to the opponent. Why do I say death? Well, by applying the iron palm at the end of #15 to the chest, it tends to make the opponents chin hit thier chest, then comes the ground. The back hits the ground and this causes the head to whip back down possibly splitting open the head ... possible death. Yes, racking the face, elbowing the chest area, shuto to the groin causes a lot of pain anyway, but when looking at it graphically, it is much less violent with the iron palm being left out as the finisher.


 
Yes, that is a good point.  Then again, I often think about all of the various techniques.  Pretty much every single one has a break, dislocation, rake, poke or other nasty things.  Sure, as you said, some are worse than others, but there is nothing mild about our art. 




> However, IMO, the only person I would have over my knee to begin with, is my girlfriend ...


 
:ultracool


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## Joe Shuras (Mar 19, 2007)

MJS said:


> Hey Joe! Hope that all is well! As for the above post, I agree. I remember some of those tests, and yes, they were pretty intense.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Hi Mike, doing well, thanks, hope all is fine with you. I hate that too, nothing gets under my skin more than if a parent or student asks when they are going up so now I inform them of the proper 'protocol' ahead of time. I told the parents once that if I had the intention of putting their son/daughter up for a test but before I had a chance to post it, the parent asked me, I would immediately take their name off the list. Why? because if I didn't they would go away believing they influenced me into putting up their kid and the parents would look like they are controlling the ranking system. Back when I was going through the colored belts if someone asked when they were going up or they said something stupid to the instructor like 'I'm ready to go up for the next belt now'.....Man, you got an instant attitude adjustment and that's putting it mildly, lol.

I know what you mean about the contact. People want to be trained in a fighting art to be used in real world situations.... well, hello? It is reasonable that they should assume a risk of injury which actually applies to anything physical, hell, you can break an ankle taking dancing lessons, lol. - Joe


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## kosho (Mar 19, 2007)

*Another thing. Today you hear stories of students sometimes asking when they would be going up for a test and so forth*

I tell the studnet and the mom or dad.  WHEN I feel the person is ready for the next level I will Test them. until then do not ask. 

If I do get asked I just tell the sure I will test them But the cost will be 1,000.00. or you can wait until I feel there ready  and the cost is  a lot lower...  they never ask again.
 kosho


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## 14 Kempo (Apr 2, 2007)

One of the things I notice as a difference in SKK today and in the past is the desire to see things with an open mind. Most of the people I train with today, take everything at face value, they do not experiment. I call it having a closed mind. Not everything works as given for everyone. Seemingly every technique I am given by my current instructor, works differently for me. Why? Cause he is younger, first of all, and weighs in at about 180. Whereas I have some 15 years on him in age and maybe 70 pounds. I move much different.

What I mean about an open mind and seeing the concepts and theories behind the techniques is just this, let's take combo#6 for example, this is shown as a front kick to the torso. The concept and theory is that the leg is longer than the arm, so you will be able to stop your attacker cold  with the kick before the punch connects. So, what if your opponent is coming from behind, must you spin arround to face him and apply the kick? I say no, opening the mind and seeing the C&T of it tells me that I apply a linear kick. In this case, a back kick. My leg is still longer than his arm, I have stopped him in his tracks and I have not been hit.

Hope this gives you a visual of what I am trying to explain here. Today most students just try to spin around a apply a front ball kick, and guess what, they get hit.


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## LawDog (Apr 3, 2007)

14_Kempo,
In the original SKK version the front kick was low, near the belt line. The front kick would be executed before your opponents front foot could "root" in. This low kick would cause a reverse pevlic tilt in your opponents posture, (the hips would be driven back). The torso would now be forward of the hip area and the hip joints would be back over or past the ankles. This would cause severe off balancing. This is the tactical theory of the early move. This tactical theory works well against a linear attack.
I understand what you are saying and agree with you. You are learning to transend a single preset itself and to apply it's tactical/concept into other situations. This in part is what a martial arts student is supposted to be learning, how to take any tactical / concept from a preset and apply it correctly into other situations. In the original SKK system there are many presets that follow similar tactical applications.
You stated that in your version of #6 the front kick goes to the torso, any area in particular?
Have a good day,
:ultracool


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## 14 Kempo (Apr 3, 2007)

LawDog said:


> 14_Kempo,
> In the original SKK version the front kick was low, near the belt line. The front kick would be executed before your opponents front foot could "root" in. This low kick would cause a reverse pevlic tilt in your opponents posture, (the hips would be driven back). The torso would now be forward of the hip area and the hip joints would be back over or past the ankles. This would cause severe off balancing. This is the tactical theory of the early move. This tactical theory works well against a linear attack.
> I understand what you are saying and agree with you. You are learning to transend a single preset itself and to apply it's tactical/concept into other situations. This in part is what a martial arts student is supposted to be learning, how to take any tactical / concept from a preset and apply it correctly into other situations. In the original SKK system there are many presets that follow similar tactical applications.
> You stated that in your version of #6 the front kick goes to the torso, any area in particular?
> ...


 
Well I used the word torso cause I've seen people mention various targets, but they all start from the groin moving up the body. At USSD, they tell us to hit the solar plexus, this stops the opponent cold in his tracks (unless of course the attacker is much larger than you and walks through the kick, which now has you off balance). I like the pelvic region, but do what I'm told when they are looking ... LOL

My assumption always is that my attacker is either larger than myself or has a weapon of some sort.


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