# What has happened to Japanese Ju Jitsu in the UK?



## Beginning again (Jun 7, 2021)

I am looking to get back into Ju Jitsu after many years out and am confused as to the decline of Japanese Ju Jitsu in the Uk. Can anyone help explain where it has gone? I’m not interested in Gracie, or “Grand master Steve” from down the road, and sorry but MMA is not “the natural development” of this art. Just give me traditional Japanese Ju Jitsu !


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## Tez3 (Jun 8, 2021)

Beginning again said:


> I am looking to get back into Ju Jitsu after many years out and am confused as to the decline of Japanese Ju Jitsu in the Uk. Can anyone help explain where it has gone? I’m not interested in Gracie, or “Grand master Steve” from down the road, and sorry but MMA is not “the natural development” of this art. Just give me traditional Japanese Ju Jitsu !


I just did a search there seems to be clubs around the country, many martial arts places of all styles aren't open yet though. Here's one organisation.





						World Ju-Jitsu Federation |
					






					www.wjjf.co.uk


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## Ivan (Jun 8, 2021)

Beginning again said:


> I am looking to get back into Ju Jitsu after many years out and am confused as to the decline of Japanese Ju Jitsu in the Uk. Can anyone help explain where it has gone? I’m not interested in Gracie, or “Grand master Steve” from down the road, and sorry but MMA is not “the natural development” of this art. Just give me traditional Japanese Ju Jitsu !


I trained in JJJ back in England for a while. My instructora said it wasn’t as popular anymore. At my classes’ peak, there were a total of 5-7 students, which is nothing compared to anything else I’ve trained in the UK. My classes were under the Kuro Obi Jiu Jitsu association, but I found nothing about it online. However, someone on a previous thread informed me that Kuro Obi does not count as traditional and that it’s actually more modern, to my surprise.


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## jobo (Jun 8, 2021)

Beginning again said:


> I am looking to get back into Ju Jitsu after many years out and am confused as to the decline of Japanese Ju Jitsu in the Uk. Can anyone help explain where it has gone? I’m not interested in Gracie, or “Grand master Steve” from down the road, and sorry but MMA is not “the natural development” of this art. Just give me traditional Japanese Ju Jitsu !


ma seems to be driven as much by fashion as function, and in jjj isnt fashionable Any more,I'm not sure it ever was compared to the number of other schools. but the short answer would be, not enough people want to do it to justify more schools

but its still available,  you may need to travel a bit unless your lucky enough to live on top of a jjj dojo


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## Tez3 (Jun 8, 2021)

jobo said:


> ma seems to be driven as much by fashion as function, and in jjj isnt fashionable Any more,I'm not sure it ever was compared to the number of other schools. but the short answer would be, not enough people want to do it to justify more schools
> 
> but its still available,  you may need to travel a bit unless your lucky enough to live on top of a jjj dojo


I was going to say that it's never been 'popular'  in the UK, we aren't a large country and can only support so many martial arts clubs. Judo has always been popular, TKD, kickboxing, JKD and karate also. MMA is quite popular but there still isn't that many clubs, we don't have the population to support too many martial arts.


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## BrendanF (Jun 8, 2021)

Beginning again said:


> I am looking to get back into Ju Jitsu after many years out and am confused as to the decline of Japanese Ju Jitsu in the Uk. Can anyone help explain where it has gone? I’m not interested in Gracie, or “Grand master Steve” from down the road, and sorry but MMA is not “the natural development” of this art. Just give me traditional Japanese Ju Jitsu !



The irony of course being that most 'Traditional JJJ' in the UK is entirely 'Grand Master Steve' invented, and in no way traditional or Japanese.  Good luck though!


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## Chris Parker (Jun 10, 2021)

Beginning again said:


> I am looking to get back into Ju Jitsu after many years out and am confused as to the decline of Japanese Ju Jitsu in the Uk. Can anyone help explain where it has gone? I’m not interested in Gracie, or “Grand master Steve” from down the road, and sorry but MMA is not “the natural development” of this art. Just give me traditional Japanese Ju Jitsu !


Firstly, can you define what you mean by "traditional Japanese Ju Jitsu"? To begin with, I'd advise spelling it "Jujutsu", if you're looking for the authentic stuff...


Tez3 said:


> I just did a search there seems to be clubs around the country, many martial arts places of all styles aren't open yet though. Here's one organisation.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah... no, Tez. The WJJF was founded by Robert Clark, a person who brought a few people out to the UK, such as the late 18th Soke of Hontai Yoshin Ryu, Inoue Munetoshi-soke, and afterwards was claiming to be a member of the school, issuing ranking, and so forth... while we try to avoid the "f" word here, well... yeah... not advised, especially for authentic jujutsu.


BrendanF said:


> The irony of course being that most 'Traditional JJJ' in the UK is entirely 'Grand Master Steve' invented, and in no way traditional or Japanese.  Good luck though!


Very true. Although there are a few groups that I know of in the UK, depending on where our OP is situated... for example, there is Bitchu-den Takeuchi Ryu, Hontai Yoshin Ryu, Moto-ha Yoshin Ryu, Sosuishi Ryu, Araki Ryu... of course, knowing that they're there is one thing, getting in is another...


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## Tez3 (Jun 10, 2021)

Chris Parker said:


> Firstly, can you define what you mean by "traditional Japanese Ju Jitsu"? To begin with, I'd advise spelling it "Jujutsu", if you're looking for the authentic stuff...
> 
> Yeah... no, Tez. The WJJF was founded by Robert Clark, a person who brought a few people out to the UK, such as the late 18th Soke of Hontai Yoshin Ryu, Inoue Munetoshi-soke, and afterwards was claiming to be a member of the school, issuing ranking, and so forth... while we try to avoid the "f" word here, well... yeah... not advised, especially for authentic jujutsu.
> 
> Very true. Although there are a few groups that I know of in the UK, depending on where our OP is situated... for example, there is Bitchu-den Takeuchi Ryu, Hontai Yoshin Ryu, Moto-ha Yoshin Ryu, Sosuishi Ryu, Araki Ryu... of course, knowing that they're there is one thing, getting in is another...


Hey I know nothing 😁 I could only copy the details of the first place on Google. There were quite a few others, the OP could have done that and chase them up.

I do know it's not a huge thing here but as I explained we aren't a big country and can't support loads of styles.


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## Chris Parker (Jun 10, 2021)

Ha, no issue... and the Koryu community in the UK actually isn't bad... France is pretty good as well, as is Germany... but most classical systems are weapon oriented (out of the five systems I listed, they all feature a solid weaponry component as well, but can be classed as jujutsu systems... it's just that you learn a lot more as well!), so looking for purely jujutsu is a challenge in any country...


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## Guy Preston (Jun 28, 2021)

As has been said before, there's not much call for it in the UK, but some are around...

Part of the problem in identifying traditional Jujutsu here, is that the people who want to make a name for themselves, run cash oriented clubs that have money for advertising pay per click, etc, are generally of the 'Grand Master Steve' variety - and these are the people you will usually find when searching. 

Most of the people I know who teach in a more traditional manner or teach Koryu keep a much lower profile, and operate smaller schools.

Where in the UK are you located?


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## Jusroc (Oct 21, 2021)

I think in London there are some styles practising, as well as a number of various styles in certain places.
I think it all depends on what you are looking for. London would be a good place to look.

I think the reason why there are less clubs practising traditional ju jutsu, is due to the rise in Muay Thai Kickboxing, MMA and Gracie Brazilian Ju Jutsu.

These styles have taken a great deal of the members away from not only the more traditional martial art clubs, but also from Sport Judo, Sport TKD, Karate Styles and even street fighting self defence arts like Kenpo and Jeet Kune Do etc.

The reason for this I would say not only due to trend / fashion, but also due to the rise in popularity of the UFC since the mid 90s. The UFC kind of did prove a point to the world which blew a lot of people away.

A smaller less physically strong less aggressive (in terms of striking) fighter could beat a much bigger physically strong and power striker, and in some cases, with ease. In sport and in theory in self defence.

That, as well as a really well put together professional program, really cool catchy merchandising, friendly competition environment etc. 

I think the what they have developed is really professional and really accessible. Even if it is at a cost.
But if the quality is there, and people get results, as well as the bad *** image. Then people will pay for that privilage.

I am not knocking the traditional arts, and in fact, I myself would also like to train in traditional ju jitsu, so i can train my own program that blends trad ju jitsu with the other arts that i have trained in my life (as personally where i can fight to some extent on the ground, in self defence, i would prefer not to be on the ground, as your fairly immobile, which is ok for 1 on 1 without danger of police or bent police being involved but in the chaos of a city at the week end.... hmm rolling on the tarmac, no thanks).

I also really liked the Jon Wick series of films. John Wick, a fictional character who did a combo of trad ju jutsu, judo, bjj, plus a system for shooting guns.

Not that i plan to become an assassin, nor do I think that being as good as John Wick is even achievable (not even for Keanu Reeves... 

but thought the idea of combining the three makes a lot of sense. 

Judo for Tachi Waza (standing techniques), BJJ for refined version of Judo Newaza developed for the modern street and Traditional Ju Jutsu for the other throws, locks and striking that isn't in either, which is banned from competition. Covered most basses there I think.


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## Chris Parker (Oct 22, 2021)

Hmmm.... no. To, well, all of that.


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## Jusroc (Oct 22, 2021)

Chris Parker said:


> Hmmm.... no. To, well, all of that.


OK. Mr Parker, in case your reply is directly at me.

Please read the following:
(The following is a copy of my last post on the topic. I have changed the colour so that you can distinguish the difference between what I wrote originally from my questions).

Original Author (Beginning again) Question:

I am looking to get back into Ju Jitsu after many years out and am confused as to the decline of Japanese Ju Jitsu in the Uk. Can anyone help explain where it has gone? I’m not interested in Gracie, or “Grand master Steve” from down the road, and sorry but MMA is not “the natural development” of this art. Just give me traditional Japanese Ju Jitsu !

I wrote:
1: I think in London there are some styles practising, as well as a number of various styles in certain places.
I think it all depends on what you are looking for. London would be a good place to look.
Please clarify Mr Parker if this statement is something that you think "Hmmmm.... no." to the first above statement of mine.
Although a simple google web search will surely prove this statement is true, as it did for me.

I then continued by saying the following:
2: I think the reason why there are less clubs practising traditional ju jutsu, is due to the rise in Muay Thai Kickboxing, MMA and Gracie Brazilian Ju Jutsu.
These styles have taken a great deal of the members away from not only the more traditional martial art clubs, but also from Sport Judo, Sport TKD, Karate Styles and even street fighting self defence arts like Kenpo and Jeet Kune Do etc.
Please clarify Mr Parker if this statement is something that you think "Hmmmm.... no." to the first above statement of mine.
Muay Thai, MMA and Gracie Jiu Jitsu haven't taken any of the market for self defence from the old Trad Ju Jutsu clubs or other styles?

3: The reason for this I would say not only due to trend / fashion, but also due to the rise in popularity of the UFC since the mid 90s. The UFC kind of did prove a point to the world which blew a lot of people away.

The UFC didn't help popularise Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai or MMA? Is that the statement that you disagree with. 
Please Mr Chris Parker, please enlighten me with your wisdom through your detailed analysis in an explanation.

4: A smaller less physically strong less aggressive (in terms of striking) fighter could beat a much bigger physically strong and power striker, and in some cases, with ease. In sport and in theory in self defence.
Royce and Rickson Gracie (among many others) beating loads of physically bigger and stronger, more powerful strikers didn't prove this statement? Please explain why you this statement is not true.

5: That, as well as a really well put together professional program, really cool catchy merchandising, friendly competition environment etc.
Is this statement the one you disagree with?... The Gracie System isn't professionally put together or taught?.... I wonder why so many think they are then? As an art (and music) school graduate, as well as someone who has worked in merchant banks for a number of years, and someone who has trained at quiet a number of not only different clubs but different types of clubs, as well as being a coach who had to pass UKCC BJA coaching qualifications in order to be able to teach, I personally think that what I have seen of various stains of GJJ / BJJ, has been very professional. I also think that the merchandise is cool. Comps also friendly.

But I keep an open mind, please explain why you disagree with this statement. No problem.

6: I think the what they have developed is really professional and really accessible. Even if it is at a cost.
But if the quality is there, and people get results, as well as the bad *** image. Then people will pay for that privilege.
Mr Chris Parker, please clarify as to why this statement qualifies for your..... Hmmmm.... No comment,.

7: I am not knocking the traditional arts, and in fact, I myself would also like to train in traditional ju jitsu, so i can train my own program that blends trad ju jitsu with the other arts that i have trained in my life (as personally where i can fight to some extent on the ground, in self defence, i would prefer not to be on the ground, as your fairly immobile, which is ok for 1 on 1 without danger of police or bent police being involved but in the chaos of a city at the week end.... hmm rolling on the tarmac, no thanks).
Mr Chris Parker, Please clarify why you disagree with that statement. 
Personally, I think that Judo / Gracie Ju Jitsu gives you something that a lot of styles don't. Reality check. 
I have trained in Aikido for a few years, and sure, the techniques work (whether as locks or even throws, if you get good enough),
however, the problem with more trad Japanese styles can be the way that they are trained. 

One example of this is how people attack. The original styles work against a particular style of attacker. 
look at a punch attack for example. If an Aikidoka want's to demonstrate their technical mastery they get one or more people (also Aikidokas) to attack them. The other aikidoka's attack in the way that they have been taught to punch. One punch at a time. Stepping through, committing to their punch, like a good swordsman who needs to step through to make a good cut.

Compare this with how a pro boxer would punch, especially in the first round, when they have their wits together and are not desperate.
Good boxers won't start off by throwing a wild swing at you with all their power, while their other hand is down. 
You go down to your local boxing gym and get in the ring with a pro, especially if the boxer is a power house like Mike Tyson or Tyson Fury. If they hit you hard, you wont have many more chances to do anything.

Let me know how you get on. I bet you wont be able to throw them on the first punch. I know that much.
Anyway, and its ok, we can disagree on points. Please let me know if you disagree with that statement.

8: I also really liked the Jon Wick series of films. John Wick, a fictional character who did a combo of trad ju jutsu, judo, bjj, plus a system for shooting guns.
Sorry, I was wrong on that one.... John Wick isn't a fictional character, he is real, and all the fight scenes in all 3 films are true to history....
Sorry. Films are films. I loved these films though. Loved the throws. Loved the plot. Etc. Think Keanu Reeves is a really talented actor and has great potential as a martial art.
That is just my subjective opinion. Feel free to disagree. Is it this you "Hmmmm.....no" to?

9: Not that i plan to become an assassin, nor do I think that being as good as John Wick is even achievable (not even for Keanu Reeves...
but thought the idea of combining the three makes a lot of sense.

Judo for Tachi Waza (standing techniques), BJJ for refined version of Judo Newaza developed for the modern street and Traditional Ju Jutsu for the other throws, locks and striking that isn't in either, which is banned from competition. Covered most basses there I think.
Personally think combining the best of Trad Ju Jutsu (the illegal moves taken out by Kano and the Gracies for safety), with the best of Judo Throwing techniques, with the best of Gracie Jiu Jutsu Self Defence (street application) would be a great combination.

Although, perhaps keeping the Judo and Gracie Jiu Jitsu rolling / randori separate to the techniques that are hard to apply with control from Trad Ju Jutsu to a different type of randori would be required for safety reasons. 

I personally not really into competitions, more self defence orientated. Doesn't mean you can't pressure test to make sure you are still living in reality. 

But if you disagree with this statement. I have no problem. I would really like to know why though.
Perhaps I would learn something?.... (I am open minded and willing to listen. Perhaps I may even be a convert. But you may have to do a better job as salesman, as just writing.. Hmmmm.... No isn't really that helpful.

Just out of interest. I am not a hater of Trad or Japanese stylists.  

I did train in Aikido for a couple of years.
I have also trained in Judo for a few years.
I trained in Kendo for a while, had my own tailor made Bogu set made in Japan. 

In the past I also trained a little in Bujinkan and Toshino.

I have also trained in sport orientated styles, Kenpo Street Fighting Karate (both my main instructors are 9th degree black belts now).
I personally prefer to train for self defence in styles that pressure test their techniques with randori / free fighting / rolling.

But that's just me. I have no problem with others practicing arts for other reason.

Btw. There used to be a couple of Trad Japanese Ju Jitsu clubs in the area that I live.
Both were very popular during the 70s, 80s and even 90s.

Now there are no trad Ju Jutsu clubs in that are that I live in.

I have met the head instructor of one of the clubs that used to be packed to the brim.
He retired due to lack of interest from people.

Nonetheless,. please let me know why you think everything I have written is bs. 
Would be happy to be told if I am talking bs. and when corrected, then i would be able to stop talking bs.
So, please do me the favour. 

Otherwise. I thank you for reading. Hope all have a nice day.
sorry for making this ju jutsu thread so wordy as well as involving this conflict. 
Hopefully the forum members will forgive me.


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## Jusroc (Oct 22, 2021)

hmmmm.......no! I really don't think so,.... Thanks


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## Hanzou (Oct 22, 2021)

Jusroc said:


> I think in London there are some styles practising, as well as a number of various styles in certain places.
> I think it all depends on what you are looking for. London would be a good place to look.
> 
> I think the reason why there are less clubs practising traditional ju jutsu, is due to the rise in Muay Thai Kickboxing, MMA and Gracie Brazilian Ju Jutsu.
> ...



This is largely correct, and isn't only happening in Europe and the UK, it's happening worldwide. 

I mean, compare that weirdo JJJ school you posted about to a legitimate BJJ school. The former is a shaky bet, and the BJJ school is a sure bet. It's fairly obvious which one a typical person would choose.


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## Chris Parker (Oct 24, 2021)

Jusroc said:


> OK. Mr Parker, in case your reply is directly at me.



Well, considering there was only one other post between my previous one, and the other was from someone who actually trains in Classical Japanese Jujutsu, then... 



Jusroc said:


> Please read the following:
> (The following is a copy of my last post on the topic. I have changed the colour so that you can distinguish the difference between what I wrote originally from my questions).



Since you asked so nicely...................



Jusroc said:


> Original Author (Beginning again) Question:
> 
> I am looking to get back into Ju Jitsu after many years out and am confused as to the decline of Japanese Ju Jitsu in the Uk. Can anyone help explain where it has gone? I’m not interested in Gracie, or “Grand master Steve” from down the road, and sorry but MMA is not “the natural development” of this art. Just give me traditional Japanese Ju Jitsu !
> 
> ...



Well, let's start with exactly what you are referring to... when we're discussing Classical Japanese jujutsu (as defined as "traditional Japanese Jujutsu.... not Gracie or "Grand master Steve" from down the road" in the OP), then we're talking koryu... which is, simply, not common anywhere. I gave a list of ryu-ha that I know are in the UK earlier, but only a couple of them are actually in London... others are quite a fair bit removed. So, in a strict sense, kinda true, but vague, and uninformed (as well as uninformative). If we're going to be accurate.



Jusroc said:


> I then continued by saying the following:
> 2: I think the reason why there are less clubs practising traditional ju jutsu, is due to the rise in Muay Thai Kickboxing, MMA and Gracie Brazilian Ju Jutsu.
> These styles have taken a great deal of the members away from not only the more traditional martial art clubs, but also from Sport Judo, Sport TKD, Karate Styles and even street fighting self defence arts like Kenpo and Jeet Kune Do etc.
> Please clarify Mr Parker if this statement is something that you think "Hmmmm.... no." to the first above statement of mine.
> Muay Thai, MMA and Gracie Jiu Jitsu haven't taken any of the market for self defence from the old Trad Ju Jutsu clubs or other styles?



Firstly, forget the "other styles", they're not a part of this discussion, and an irrelevant straw-man. When it comes to the traditional jujutsu, then, no, in no way have they "taken (students of these schools) off the market"... as, firstly, these are a completely different "market", and, secondly, they haven't contributed to any perceived "drop" in attendance... as, frankly, there are more practicing in the UK now than ever before. How can I say that? Because, if you go back to the 90's, almost none of these schools were in the UK at all (Hontai Yoshin Ryu had made an appearance, but Moto-ha Yoshin Ryu hadn't, nor had Sosuishi Ryu, Araki Ryu, Takeuchi Ryu Bitchu-den, all of which came to the UK in the 2000's).

Simply put, you don't know what you're talking about, the schools involved, their history, their membership, or anything of the kind... so, your assessment is not correct at all.



Jusroc said:


> 3: The reason for this I would say not only due to trend / fashion, but also due to the rise in popularity of the UFC since the mid 90s. The UFC kind of did prove a point to the world which blew a lot of people away.
> 
> The UFC didn't help popularise Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai or MMA? Is that the statement that you disagree with.
> Please Mr Chris Parker, please enlighten me with your wisdom through your detailed analysis in an explanation.



The UFC, and it's role in popularising BJJ (hell, the first event was largely a publicity stunt for Gracie's schools, so big surprise there) is completely irrelevant. It may have meant that more people studied BJJ, but that means nothing in regard to the practice and popularity of traditional jujutsu ryu-ha. If anything, it'd be not uncommon (or unlikely) to have a practitioner of these classical systems to also practice something like judo, or, these days, BJJ, but that's far from thinking that people are only able to choose one or the other. The biggest restriction on the "popularity" of traditional jujutsu systems is their rarity, not any other art's perceived popularity.

So, no, you're unfamiliar with the situation regarding actual traditional/classical jujutsu systems, and are attributing an unrelated phenomena to have some kind of causality. It doesn't have any.



Jusroc said:


> 4: A smaller less physically strong less aggressive (in terms of striking) fighter could beat a much bigger physically strong and power striker, and in some cases, with ease. In sport and in theory in self defence.
> Royce and Rickson Gracie (among many others) beating loads of physically bigger and stronger, more powerful strikers didn't prove this statement? Please explain why you this statement is not true.



Number one, it's irrelevant. It means absolutely nothing in regards to the topic at hand. So... yeah. Meaningless, so I'm gonna give it a big "no.." as far as it relates to the topic.

Next, Royce and Rickson are absolute technicians, but I wouldn't say that much was proven, other than that, in particular defined and limited contexts, highly skilled technicians were able to achieve success in a number of events.

Thirdly... what? Do you think that classical jujutsu is designed only for people who are built like John Cena or Brock Lesnar? Are you even sure of your own argument there? One system seems to have some success for some high-level elite practitioners, therefore it's the only one that can? Huh?



Jusroc said:


> 5: That, as well as a really well put together professional program, really cool catchy merchandising, friendly competition environment etc.
> Is this statement the one you disagree with?... The Gracie System isn't professionally put together or taught?.... I wonder why so many think they are then? As an art (and music) school graduate, as well as someone who has worked in merchant banks for a number of years, and someone who has trained at quiet a number of not only different clubs but different types of clubs, as well as being a coach who had to pass UKCC BJA coaching qualifications in order to be able to teach, I personally think that what I have seen of various stains of GJJ / BJJ, has been very professional. I also think that the merchandise is cool. Comps also friendly.



Are you just making up your own arguments here? This isn't about "what's so awesomely coolly amazingly wondrous and fantastic about BJJ", it's about traditional Japanese jujutsu systems... and, as I've already said, the whole premise of "they're not huge because BJJ is so popular" is way off base on every count... so what does this have to do with anything?



Jusroc said:


> But I keep an open mind, please explain why you disagree with this statement. No problem.



Sure......



Jusroc said:


> 6: I think the what they have developed is really professional and really accessible. Even if it is at a cost.
> But if the quality is there, and people get results, as well as the bad *** image. Then people will pay for that privilege.
> Mr Chris Parker, please clarify as to why this statement qualifies for your..... Hmmmm.... No comment,.



I have no idea what the hell you think you're talking about. This is not the topic of the thread, it's not the question of the thread, and is little more than you fanboying over BJJ. As a result, it's pointless and meaningless, so, as far as it conflates to the topic at hand, then... no. It doesn't mean a thing.

And, "pay for that privilege"? Yeah, I saw someone say recently that BJJ is an expensive hobby... almost snorted out the drink I wasn't having... what, exactly, is expensive here? You need to pay for, what, membership and training fees, a uniform, and... tournament fees? Maybe?

Dude. That has got to be one of the cheapest martial arts I can think of.

But, really, the biggest issue with this part, and all of the preceding, is that it's supporting a basic supposition that is, on many levels, incorrect. So, no matter what you think of how much awesomeness BJJ has, it has no relevance when it comes to reasons of traditional/classical jujutsu's popularity.

In other words, hmm, no... to, well, all of that.



Jusroc said:


> 7: I am not knocking the traditional arts, and in fact, I myself would also like to train in traditional ju jitsu, so i can train my own program that blends trad ju jitsu with the other arts that i have trained in my life (as personally where i can fight to some extent on the ground, in self defence, i would prefer not to be on the ground, as your fairly immobile, which is ok for 1 on 1 without danger of police or bent police being involved but in the chaos of a city at the week end.... hmm rolling on the tarmac, no thanks).
> Mr Chris Parker, Please clarify why you disagree with that statement.



Sure.

You have no idea about classical/traditional jujutsu (note: not "ju-jitsu"), how it operates, it's values, it's methodologies, it's context, or anything similar. For one thing, you think it's about self defence. It's not. You think it's about modern violence. It's not. You think it's a good idea to "blend it" to create your own system, which is pretty antithetical to training these systems in the first place... in fact, you tell most teachers of these arts that that's your aim, and you don't get in the front door.



Jusroc said:


> Personally, I think that Judo / Gracie Ju Jitsu gives you something that a lot of styles don't. Reality check.



Then you understand neither the other arts, nor reality. BJJ/Judo etc give a sense of a particular contextual application... but that ain't reality, mate. Much of what you do there will get you hurt or killed in "reality". Classical arts, on the other hand, are more about a particular sense of awareness of a multitude of factors, with a mentality that takes a wider grasp of "reality" into view... the traditional packaging (cultural, social, political, philosophical, and more) might mean that the techniques themselves don't resemble modern violence in a number of ways, but that doesn't mean they're not giving you a "reality check"... you just need to know what that is in the first place. 



Jusroc said:


> I have trained in Aikido for a few years, and sure, the techniques work (whether as locks or even throws, if you get good enough),
> however, the problem with more trad Japanese styles can be the way that they are trained.



What, precisely, do you know about the way these arts are trained? And what makes you think there's only one way that happens?



Jusroc said:


> One example of this is how people attack. The original styles work against a particular style of attacker.



Do you think that's any different with BJJ? Really?



Jusroc said:


> look at a punch attack for example. If an Aikidoka want's to demonstrate their technical mastery they get one or more people (also Aikidokas) to attack them. The other aikidoka's attack in the way that they have been taught to punch. One punch at a time. Stepping through, committing to their punch, like a good swordsman who needs to step through to make a good cut.



And.... do you understand this training methodology? Its reasons? Its purpose? Its benefits? Its context? Or are you just thinking that it's actually meant to represent a fight? Or those are meant to be punches....?

You think that's air you're breathing?



Jusroc said:


> Compare this with how a pro boxer would punch, especially in the first round, when they have their wits together and are not desperate.
> Good boxers won't start off by throwing a wild swing at you with all their power, while their other hand is down.
> You go down to your local boxing gym and get in the ring with a pro, especially if the boxer is a power house like Mike Tyson or Tyson Fury. If they hit you hard, you wont have many more chances to do anything.



HA!!!!

Dude. Context is everything. A boxer, especially in the first round, is going against another trained boxer... he's not expecting a knife or other weapon, and he knows he has to last (endurance-wise) for potentially 10 rounds or so... you think an actual fight is anything like that? You think an attack in the street is like that of a trained boxer? 

You think any of that is "reality"?



Jusroc said:


> Let me know how you get on. I bet you wont be able to throw them on the first punch. I know that much.
> Anyway, and its ok, we can disagree on points. Please let me know if you disagree with that statement.



Done my time in a boxing gym, dude. You don't have the first clue what you're saying, or who you're saying it to. Bear that in mind.



Jusroc said:


> 8: I also really liked the Jon Wick series of films. John Wick, a fictional character who did a combo of trad ju jutsu, judo, bjj, plus a system for shooting guns.
> Sorry, I was wrong on that one.... John Wick isn't a fictional character, he is real, and all the fight scenes in all 3 films are true to history....
> Sorry. Films are films. I loved these films though. Loved the throws. Loved the plot. Etc. Think Keanu Reeves is a really talented actor and has great potential as a martial art.
> That is just my subjective opinion. Feel free to disagree. Is it this you "Hmmmm.....no" to?



Well, one could certainly argue that he doesn't do a "combination of traditional jujutsu, judo, bjj...", considering, well, he doesn't. He may be listed as doing that, but not by anyone who knows what they're looking at... it's a collection of various techniques that have similarities to some methods that might be found in such systems, but that's a far cry from saying that he's actually doing any of them... the techniques are expressions of the art, not the art itself... so, no, he doesn't do that... he (the fictional character) does a filmmakers and choreographers imitation of their understanding of fictionalised versions of them... which is far from the same thing.



Jusroc said:


> 9: Not that i plan to become an assassin, nor do I think that being as good as John Wick is even achievable (not even for Keanu Reeves...
> but thought the idea of combining the three makes a lot of sense.
> 
> Judo for Tachi Waza (standing techniques), BJJ for refined version of Judo Newaza developed for the modern street and Traditional Ju Jutsu for the other throws, locks and striking that isn't in either, which is banned from competition. Covered most basses there I think.
> Personally think combining the best of Trad Ju Jutsu (the illegal moves taken out by Kano and the Gracies for safety), with the best of Judo Throwing techniques, with the best of Gracie Jiu Jutsu Self Defence (street application) would be a great combination.



"Traditional jujutsu" is not one thing. There is no one set of techniques. There is no single art that you can do in this sense. Literally, you're wanting to combine something that doesn't exist. Kano didn't take out anything "illegal" (except in that removing them from Judo's competitive ruleset made them illegal in Judo competition...), and that's only potentially accurate (it's not, by the way) if you're looking specifically at Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu and Kito Ryu... more realistically, he functionally simplified the technical aspects drawn primarily from these arts, and a few others on a lesser level, in order to create the Kodokan training methodology... although, it's notable that he viewed shiai/randori as more of a minor aspect of a proper martial study, despite it becoming a defining aspect of the Kodokan's training approach later.

Takeuchi Ryu Bitchu-den is not Hontai Yoshin Ryu.
Hontai Yoshin Ryu shares little to nothing with Araki Ryu.
Araki Ryu, even though taught in the UK by the same person, are completely different systems.
And this is just sticking with the known systems in the UK.

Again, you appear to have no understanding or knowledge of actual traditional/classical jujutsu systems. And your idea is based more in fantasy, and a lack of knowing what "bases" would need to be covered outside of a competition set up... in which case, none of the "illegal" techniques would be valid, and sticking with just the techniques of the ruleset that you're competing under would be the way to go.



Jusroc said:


> Although, perhaps keeping the Judo and Gracie Jiu Jitsu rolling / randori separate to the techniques that are hard to apply with control from Trad Ju Jutsu to a different type of randori would be required for safety reasons.



So... your plan is to incorporate classical jujutsu into a judo-style randori training, then adapt that for safety... which turns it back into just judo randori, as that's literally what happened, and why judo's randori is the way it is.

Yeah.... 



Jusroc said:


> I personally not really into competitions, more self defence orientated. Doesn't mean you can't pressure test to make sure you are still living in reality.



And what makes you think traditional systems don't? Do you think sparring is the only way to pressure test? And do you think it's only done in Judo and BJJ? And why would you decide that your best bet for modern self defence is a classical system from another culture based in the forms of violence and social expectations and cultural norms from centuries ago?



Jusroc said:


> But if you disagree with this statement. I have no problem. I would really like to know why though.
> Perhaps I would learn something?.... (I am open minded and willing to listen. Perhaps I may even be a convert. But you may have to do a better job as salesman, as just writing.. Hmmmm.... No isn't really that helpful.



Simply put, you don't know what you're talking about at this point. Your opinion is based on a lack of knowledge... which is not uncommon, really. But it also means that the simplest response to such an opinion is "No... to pretty much all of that".



Jusroc said:


> Just out of interest. I am not a hater of Trad or Japanese stylists.



Sure. But you don't seem to know them.



Jusroc said:


> I did train in Aikido for a couple of years.



Modern, traditional... not the same thing.



Jusroc said:


> I have also trained in Judo for a few years.



Modern, competitive. Really not the same thing. Aikido may be slightly closer, but is still quite removed from the pedagogy of classical systems, as per the OP's request.



Jusroc said:


> I trained in Kendo for a while, had my own tailor made Bogu set made in Japan.



Lovely. Put that in with Judo.



Jusroc said:


> In the past I also trained a little in Bujinkan and Toshino.



Ah, the Bujinkan (and Toshindo, to a great degree)... it's an interesting little beastie... although based in some old systems (and some more questionable ones), the way they're taught, they are realistically a modern, pseudo-traditional, largely Westernised approach, even if based in Japan (for the Bujinkan). Again, quite different to actual classical arts.



Jusroc said:


> I have also trained in sport orientated styles, Kenpo Street Fighting Karate (both my main instructors are 9th degree black belts now).
> I personally prefer to train for self defence in styles that pressure test their techniques with randori / free fighting / rolling.



And that's great. But that kind of "testing" is completely unrelated to self defence, so you know... and none of this has any bearing at all on classical/traditional jujutsu systems. It doesn't matter what you're into, after all, the question isn't "what does Jusroc like?", or "what would Jusroc want to train in?"...



Jusroc said:


> But that's just me. I have no problem with others practicing arts for other reason.



Cool. Irrelevant, but cool.



Jusroc said:


> Btw. There used to be a couple of Trad Japanese Ju Jitsu clubs in the area that I live.
> Both were very popular during the 70s, 80s and even 90s.



I only know of an extremely small number of genuine traditional (classical) jujutsu systems outside of Japan prior to the 90's, let alone in the 80's or 70's... in Australia, we had a school of Sosuishi Ryu in the 60's (one of the first classical schools outside of Japan that I've come across), then Yagyu Shingan Ryu (Chikuosha) from the late 80's... the next that I'm aware of would be about a decade later. As far as other countries, most classical systems that were taught outside of Japan then (as now) are weapon arts... Shindo Muso Ryu, Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu, Muso Shinden Ryu, and Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu making up the majority... I'd be very interested to know where koryu was being taught in a localised area in the 70's, especially jujutsu ryu-ha. My suspicion is that, frankly, this is the "grand master Steve" variety... which is exactly what we're not discussing.



Jusroc said:


> Now there are no trad Ju Jutsu clubs in that are that I live in.



How do you know....? For one thing, these arts tend to keep a low profile (hence people thinking they're "losing popularity", when the opposite is the case), for another... what would you think a traditional jujutsu school is? Here's a hint... they wouldn't use the term "club"... 



Jusroc said:


> I have met the head instructor of one of the clubs that used to be packed to the brim.
> He retired due to lack of interest from people.



Yeah... doesn't sound like an actual koryu/classical/traditional jujutsu art... "packed to the brim" is something that is highly unlikely to ever be the case... which, by the way, is by design. Classical systems don't want to be "packed to the brim"... it makes it a lot harder to teach the way we do.



Jusroc said:


> Nonetheless,. please let me know why you think everything I have written is bs.
> Would be happy to be told if I am talking bs. and when corrected, then i would be able to stop talking bs.
> So, please do me the favour.



Simply put, you are unaware of what is entailed in the concept and reality of classical/traditional jujutsu systems. You started from an incorrect understanding and impression, compounded that with applying contexts and values that don't exist in this area, and only thought through your personal viewpoint. In other words, you started in the wrong direction, and walked further away.



Jusroc said:


> Otherwise. I thank you for reading. Hope all have a nice day.
> sorry for making this ju jutsu thread so wordy as well as involving this conflict.
> Hopefully the forum members will forgive me.



Oh, they've seen my posts.... this is hardly the longest I've been involved in, ha!


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## caped crusader (Oct 24, 2021)

Chris Parker said:


> I'd advise spelling it "Jujutsu", if you're looking for the authentic stuff...


not strictly true..




Chris Parker said:


> as well, as is Germany


maybe some isolated schools in the south of Germany but more modern systems. systems developed in the 40s upwards. some saying they teach Daito Ryu too or "Aiki Jutsu" ...  even in Japan you will be hard pressed to find a real old Ryu.
As to your point about JU JUTSU  being authentic stuff.. the most wide spread system of *ju jutsu *in Germany is a modern system developed in the 60s. I have been in a dojo in Germany and seen it. I know people who have trained for years in it.
The system is also tought to the German police. I know as my wife´s uncle was Kripo a Detecive and my brother has a wife who is German police.
I also used to train in a German training schools dojo. They tought Ju Jutsu in their recruits program and also had a judo group & Aikido (Iwama Ryu).
Read below.





						German ju-jutsu - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## Chris Parker (Oct 24, 2021)

Oh dear......



caped crusader said:


> not strictly true..



Yes, it is.

While the incorrect transliteration of "jitsu" was accepted earlier, from at least 90's onwards, the correct transliteration of "jutsu" has been used by authentic groups, with "jitsu" typically still be used by modern groups, largely though ignorance one might posit. 



caped crusader said:


> maybe some isolated schools in the south of Germany but more modern systems. systems developed in the 40s upwards. some saying they teach Daito Ryu too or "Aiki Jutsu" ...  even in Japan you will be hard pressed to find a real old Ryu.



Er.... what are you talking about? I mentioned that there is a relatively healthy koryu community, with a number of ryu taught in Germany (in addition to France, where it's even more prevalent), I'm not discussing modern arts at all... and, believe me, I am more than aware of what is available in Japan and elsewhere.



caped crusader said:


> As to your point about JU JUTSU  being authentic stuff.. the most wide spread system of *ju jutsu *in Germany is a modern system developed in the 60s. I have been in a dojo in Germany and seen it. I know people who have trained for years in it.



So what? This has exactly nothing to do with the thread, the topic, or my comments.

We're discussing traditional/classical (authentic) Japanese Jujutsu in the UK. What does a popular modern, Western (German) system have to do with that at all?



caped crusader said:


> The system is also tought to the German police. I know as my wife´s uncle was Kripo a Detecive and my brother has a wife who is German police.
> I also used to train in a German training schools dojo. They tought Ju Jutsu in their recruits program and also had a judo group & Aikido (Iwama Ryu).
> Read below.
> 
> ...


 
Which, again, has nothing at all to do with the topic, subject, or anything else. And is, to be absolutely clear, not traditional Japanese Jujutsu at all. It might be great, but that doesn't change the facts of what it is or is not. After all, pizza is great, but it's not a crepe, despite having a similar shape.


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## caped crusader (Oct 24, 2021)

as to the threads topic, forget finding a real "old school Ryu" in the UK. simply find a good  Wado or Goju Ryu group. everything in there throws,locks,strikes.  A lot of old Ryu died out when Japan went through the Meiji era when Japan went with modern times.  Hence why Kano tried to save many kata in his ju*do *system. It all changed.


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## Chris Parker (Oct 24, 2021)

But he's specifically looking for traditional jujutsu... his reasons are going to be that, his reasons. It's not on you to tell him to look for something else based on your values.


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## caped crusader (Oct 24, 2021)

Chris Parker said:


> We're discussing traditional/classical (authentic) Japanese Jujutsu in the UK. What does a popular modern, Western (German) system have to do with that at all?


because you were wrong in your expert assumption that only authentic schools are spelt *ju jutsu*
also you mentioned Germany. you do read what you post..right?
anyway buddy have a nice day.


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## Chris Parker (Oct 24, 2021)

Wow... no, I said that authentic schools would spell the art correctly as jujutsu, as opposed to the jujitsu that had been used in-thread already, to help narrow the search for the OP. Not that only authentic systems use it, just that authentic systems will definitely use it. So, you know, I was right. And still am.

I mentioned Germany in relation to there being a healthy koryu community there, nothing else. You took a partial sentence completely out of context, and discussed thoroughly unrelated subjects based on not reading what I wrote correctly in the first place.

You do read.... right?


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## Hanzou (Oct 24, 2021)

Beginning again said:


> I am looking to get back into Ju Jitsu after many years out and am confused as to the decline of Japanese Ju Jitsu in the Uk. Can anyone help explain where it has gone? I’m not interested in Gracie, or “Grand master Steve” from down the road, and sorry but MMA is not “the natural development” of this art. Just give me traditional Japanese Ju Jitsu !



Well, it sort of is. JJJ evolved into Judo, and BJJ is a natural evolution of Judo. Since BJJ forms the core of MMA, it's fair to say that MMA is a natural development of JJJ and other classical MAs.


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## caped crusader (Oct 24, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Well, it sort of is. JJJ evolved into Judo, and BJJ is a natural evolution of Judo. Since BJJ forms the core of MMA, it's fair to say that MMA is a natural development of JJJ and other classical MAs.


yeah and what people need to think about is this.. these old Ryu even Kito Ryu ..etc which influenced Judo were made for battlefield fighting against a samurai warrior and nothing really important for modern day fighting. I agree with Hanzou it´s developed into modern systems.


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## Jusroc (Oct 24, 2021)

I will return when i have more time to answer.

Please, Mr Parker, feel free to make a statement that proves this statement of mine is untrue, as,
it does appear to be your gifted talent.


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## Jusroc (Oct 24, 2021)

OK. I have returned. Please let me explain something before the debate continues.
After reading my initial reply, I realise that what I have written perhaps was more than asked for with regards to the scope of the original topic (This is likely because I have Autism Spectrum Disorder, as communication is an area we have problems in).

I realise that in my first answer reply post, as well as attempting to answer the above question/s, I also included some of my own personal opinions with regards to some other related matters.

I understand that I was not asked for my personal opinion in this area, so i apologies for my indulgence on this. If the moderators want to delete my posts on this topic, please feel free to do so. I have no problems with that what so ever.

I think with regards to the areas of disagreement I have with Mr Chris Parker.
I feel that we are going to have to simply agree to disagree.

I do not know you Mr Chris Parker, (as you do not know me), so I can not give an opinion as to why you hold the opinions that you do.

I have to say that at times you have come across aggressively (if not abusive / offensive) rather than friendly.

Maybe I am wrong and just being sensitive, but generally speaking, I personally think it better to talk to people on forums, as you would do in the real world. politely, intelligently, and respectfully.

As, we are all people, even if someone wrote something you disagree with, or even if they are obviously wrong, there is a way to help people change their opinion or update their knowledge base without being aggressive, offensive or even confrontational.

i think the word friendly would be the ultimate approach here.

There are several statements which you have made Mr Chris Parker, which I think are either offensive or inaccurate in your last reply to me. However, I don't particularly want to spend the rest of my life arguing the finer points of this, so i will keep my reply as brief as possible.

Your statement with regards to Prof Jigoro Kano for example, in his development of Judo.
I have read several biographies of Prof Jigoro Kano.

Kodokan Judo, was originally created as an amalgamation of techniques which Prof Kano had learnt from training in various styles of Traditional Ju Jutsu. (oh. amalgamation of techniques something else that you thought was bs as well.. Well maybe your write and Prof Kano was wrong?...)

Prof Kano choose the techniques that could be practised repeatedly safely in randori, so that Judo practitioners could employ randori on a regular basis, and this is what made Kano's methodology different to many of the other schools of Ju Jitsu at the time.

Over the years, various Judo techniques did become illegal due to them being recognised as dangerous.
Kata Guruma is one example.

In the early Kodokan contests, full stand up kata guruma was completely legal.
During some of the earliest fights there were a number of fatalities due to Judoka using Kata Guruma to drop their opponent onto their head, which resulted in their opponent death. So. They made it illegal.

International Judo Federation continues to change the rules on a yearly basis, occasionally techniques are made completely illegal, with the last most significant ones being made illegal being techniques that employ the use of leg grabs.

And as I am sure you know, during this time that Prof Kano became well known, some of the masters from the other Ju Jutsu Schools wanted to fight Prof Kano and his students to prove that their style is superior.
The rest is history.

Prof Kano's original intentions of creating Judo, was not to create an international sport, but was to create an art form that kept the old systems of Ju Jutsu alive during a time that the Samurai and their ways were dying out.

Part of Prof Kano's vision was to help promote Japanese moral values, at the same time as promoting the sport. I.E. *courtesy, courage, honesty, honour, modesty, respect, self-control, friendship*.

It was only until later that Prof Kano started to promote Judo as a sport.

Personally, I like the "Do" side of the art, as well as the self defence application.

As without real world self defence application, it is arguable that the arts become no more than funny looking men, dancing around the room play acting their samurai (which is particularly funny when the clubs are full of Gaijin, who can never become Samurai).


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## frank raud (Oct 25, 2021)

Jusroc said:


> Over the years, various Judo techniques did become illegal due to them being recognised as dangerous.
> Kata Guruma is one example.
> 
> In the early Kodokan contests, full stand up kata guruma was completely legal.
> During some of the earliest fights there were a number of fatalities due to Judoka using Kata Guruma to drop their opponent onto their head, which resulted in their opponent death. So. They made it illegal.


Kata Garuma was banned due to leg contact, not because it was/is inherently dangerous. It is the same reason other techniques like Morote Gari were banned from IJF competition, you cant touch opponent below the belt.


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## Steve (Oct 25, 2021)

Chris Parker said:


> Done my time in a boxing gym, dude. You don't have the first clue what you're saying, or who you're saying it to. Bear that in mind.


Wait...  hold on.  You're a boxer now, too?  Okay.


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## Tez3 (Oct 25, 2021)

This is going well............


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## Steve (Oct 25, 2021)

Tez3 said:


> This is going well............


Thank you, @Tez3.  That made me laugh.


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