# Ancient manuals and modern scams



## brianlkennedy (May 26, 2007)

On one of the other threads there was an advert for a very pricey set of authentic Shaolin temple secret manuals and I thought I might make a couple of personal observations. 

  With the Shaolin Temple Inc. (yes, _"Inc."_; I view the Shaolin temple as a business, not a religious order) you have two problems stacked on top of each other. Before turning to the problem of authenticating manuscripts let me address the business problem. A friend of mine used to be a reporter for Dow Jones wire in Beijing. As kind of a feature piece one time he did some looking into the Shaolin Temple Inc. As some of you might remember they were trying to trademark the Shaolin name (yes, trademark, like Microsoft or Coca Cola).

  It turns that that most of the various businesses connected with the Shaolin Temple are owned in major part by high ranking guys in the PLA (Peoples Liberation Army). It may surprise folks to hear that the Chinese Army, the PLA, is a major business player in the PRC. They have a well deserved reputation for being extrememly corrupt, even by the already high levels of corruption in Chinese businesses. 

  And they, the Peoples Liberation Army, own the Shaolin Temple. The reason I mention this is to point out that most aspects of the Shaolin Temple Inc. are marked by corruption and this includes all the various travel packages, dvds, books, monk outfits and all the rest of the Shaolin garbage you can buy out of the magazines or internet. Shaolin Shills describes it best. 

  Now, having kicked Kwai Chang Caine and Master Po let me turn to a broader topic; Chinese martial arts manuscripts. My wife and I co-authored a book on Chinese martial arts training manuals and she and I are working on a second book that will talk about Daoist training manuals of the Qing dynasty. 

  In the process of doing this she and I started our own little collection of (supposed) antique training manuals. The one in this photo for example claims to be a Shaolin Vital Points and their Herbal Cures manuscript. It claims to be from 1850. Each page has a little picture of a guy with the "death touch points" (i.e. the vital point) marked and then below is an herbal remedy with will cure the injury. 






  The production of fake antique manuscripts is a minor cottage industry in China, and it always has been. This manuscript is an excellent example, it is basically impossible to tell whether it is what it appears to be or not. From an odds point of view it is probably about a 50/50 chance of being real and from 1850 and about a 50/50 chance of having been made earlier this year! My working presumption is all antique Chinese martial arts manuscripts are fakes until proven otherwise.


  Now as to proving otherwise; in modern legal talk this is a question falling into the area of forensic document examination. 
  If you were thinking about for example the authenticity of a Qing dynasty document your analysis will involve four areas:
   The text itself; for example does the text mention the internet or Bruce Lee (then probably not authentic Qing dynasty!).
   The physical aspects; the paper, the ink, the binding, the calligraphy.
   The item's history in the sense of you bought it from whom and who/where did they get it.
   Overall impression; a kind of all things considered, what do you think bottom line.
But for most manuscripts it is going to be unlikely that any of these areas are really going to reveal much so you are left with what ever presumptions you started with. For example in my case, the presumption the manuscript is fake. Here in Taiwan I have had the chance to actually examine a wide range of historical Chinese martial arts manuscripts and one thing that always amazes me is the beauty, attention to detail, time and care given to the production of fakes.

  There actually must be a real Gung Fu of Making Fake Chinese Manuscripts. I wonder if they teach this gung fu at the Shaolin Temple?

  Take care,
  Brian


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## kidswarrior (May 27, 2007)

brianlkennedy said:


> It turns that that most of the various businesses connected with the Shaolin Temple are owned in major part by high ranking guys in the PLA (Peoples Liberation Army). It may surprise folks to hear that the Chinese Army, the PLA, is a major business player in the PRC. They have a well deserved reputation for being extrememly corrupt, even by the already high levels of corruption in Chinese businesses.
> 
> And they, the Peoples Liberation Army, own the Shaolin Temple.



Wow. Heavy stuff. But I'm pretty sure someone here is going to ask for documention. Anything (web link etc.) come to mind--maybe from your friend's article?


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## DavidCC (May 31, 2007)

brianlkennedy said:


> There actually must be a real Gung Fu of Making Fake Chinese Manuscripts. Take care,
> Brian


 
awesome  LOL


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## Xue Sheng (May 31, 2007)

Counterfeit books of any era are big business in China. My wife has walked into bookstores in Beijing to look for medical books and picked out counterfeit books while in the store. But she has the medical training and background to do so, most including myself do not. There are also conterfeit herbal mixtures as well form both Taiwan and China sold in the US, Taiwan and China. 

As to the Shaolin temple being a business that I have no doubt of as to being owned by the PLA that I have my doubts about and would need more proof than this post to convince me otherwise.

As to corruption in Chinese government and Chinese businesses that is also true but it is true of both Mainland and Taiwan.


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## Em MacIntosh (May 31, 2007)

This is borderline heartbreaking for me.  I have made plans to travel to the Ye-He Temple in the Song Shan mountains of northern china in 2009 to study kung fu.  I wonder if they might try to pass something off instead of real training.  I know I can get adequate training here in canada or the US if I have to but I was looking forward to studying kung fu in the mountains.  Do you think it might be too risky or that I'll be sold "snake oil"?  I'll probably go anyway just to see the golden country, but if the training is bogus, my 3 years might just be a two week visit.


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## Flying Crane (May 31, 2007)

Em MacIntosh said:


> This is borderline heartbreaking for me. I have made plans to travel to the Ye-He Temple in the Song Shan mountains of northern china in 2009 to study kung fu. I wonder if they might try to pass something off instead of real training. I know I can get adequate training here in canada or the US if I have to but I was looking forward to studying kung fu in the mountains. Do you think it might be too risky or that I'll be sold "snake oil"? I'll probably go anyway just to see the golden country, but if the training is bogus, my 3 years might just be a two week visit.


 
You might still get gruelling training, but it might be modern wushu, and not a traditional fighting method.


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## Nobody (May 31, 2007)

That is interesting i just hope a mod see's this an puts it in the library section.  This dose not belong here.  Just suggesting to the mods to move it not pointing finger at you you probably did not know they will probably move it.


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## jks9199 (May 31, 2007)

Em MacIntosh said:


> This is borderline heartbreaking for me.  I have made plans to travel to the Ye-He Temple in the Song Shan mountains of northern china in 2009 to study kung fu.  I wonder if they might try to pass something off instead of real training.  I know I can get adequate training here in canada or the US if I have to but I was looking forward to studying kung fu in the mountains.  Do you think it might be too risky or that I'll be sold "snake oil"?  I'll probably go anyway just to see the golden country, but if the training is bogus, my 3 years might just be a two week visit.


Do you have a point of contact who is arranging your training, or are you just hoping to hop off a plane, wander into a temple and say "I'm here, train me?"

The answer to that is probably your answer to whether or not you'll find decent training or not...

Of course, speaking an appropriate dialect of Chinese would probably help, too...


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## Xue Sheng (May 31, 2007)

Em MacIntosh said:


> This is borderline heartbreaking for me. I have made plans to travel to the Ye-He Temple in the Song Shan mountains of northern china in 2009 to study kung fu. I wonder if they might try to pass something off instead of real training. I know I can get adequate training here in canada or the US if I have to but I was looking forward to studying kung fu in the mountains. Do you think it might be too risky or that I'll be sold "snake oil"? I'll probably go anyway just to see the golden country, but if the training is bogus, my 3 years might just be a two week visit.


 
There is decent training in China however I cannot speak for what you would get at the Shaolin Temple. What are you looking for in CMA?

If internal styles such as Xingyi, Bagua, Yiqian or Taiji Shaolin is not the place to go. If external styles then Shaolin may be the place to go. I have noticed lately (and it does concern me) that many of the Shaolin programs offer a slew of traditional forms and styles and then offer Sanda (aka sanshou). This is giving me the thought that the other traditional stuff that they now teach is mostly form and the Sanda/Sanshou they are teaching for fighting. Which is exactly the same thing any Wushu University in China does.

There are some good Sanshou schools in Beijing and good Xingyi, Bagua, Yiquan and taiji teachers there as well. It is also my understanding that there are a few good Shuaijiao schools there but I cannot tell you where they areyet. There are also good CMA teachers in many parts of China. But you really would need a contact before you show up to train. I know of a good yiquan school there if you are interested but I do not know if they speak any English there, I know the Sifu speaks only Mandarin.

And unless you go to Shaolin, or now Chen Village as well, you really need to know Mandarin before you get there (in the North that is) in shaolin, and now Chen Village, they are teaching Mandarin to thier foreign students


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## Steel Tiger (May 31, 2007)

My first teacher went to Shaolin in 1983 he came back with two interesting things to report.  The PLA ran the place, to the point of dressing up like monks for the tourists.  The second thing was that the three remaining actual monks were very old and were not allowed to teach Chan Buddhism to anyone, but were allowed to teach martial arts.

My teacher was allowed to train with the youngest monk, he was 82.  I've seen some video footage.  He was still very good.

As this was nearly 25 years ago I suspect that Shaolin Chan Buddhism is now only available through books.

On the subject of manuals.  I have a very nice one about Shaolin pole.  Looks like its from about the '60s, difficult to tell.  It might be a fake, but the information seems quite genuine.  Beats me.


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## Em MacIntosh (Jun 1, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> There is decent training in China however I cannot speak for what you would get at the Shaolin Temple. What are you looking for in CMA?


 
I want to eventually progress to fire gong and bone marrow cleansing, but look at it as a chance to train in peace for a change, but to train hard.  It will cost me aprox $7000 per year which is cheaper than a year's worth of living expenses in canada.  I won't have to work, just train all day.  I already know how to defend myself, but my level of actual martial arts training is low.  I'm more interested in learning the traditional training, combat aplicable, of course.  I want to see it for myself, because I'm a little tired of the speculation.  I'm taking mandarin in september for a year before I go, and they also teach it over there.  I've also wanted to visit china all my life.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 1, 2007)

Em MacIntosh said:


> I want to eventually progress to fire gong and bone marrow cleansing, but look at it as a chance to train in peace for a change, but to train hard. It will cost me aprox $7000 per year which is cheaper than a year's worth of living expenses in canada. I won't have to work, just train all day. I already know how to defend myself, but my level of actual martial arts training is low. I'm more interested in learning the traditional training, combat aplicable, of course. I want to see it for myself, because I'm a little tired of the speculation. I'm taking mandarin in september for a year before I go, and they also teach it over there. I've also wanted to visit china all my life.


 
Nothing wrong with Shaolin fi that is what you want then go for it.

I would love to have a year to train train and only train and NOT have to go to work.


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## Em MacIntosh (Jun 1, 2007)

That's the idea.  Not to work on fighting but to work on the martial arts.  Exclusively.  I think it will be peaceful and interesting.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 1, 2007)

Em MacIntosh said:


> That's the idea. Not to work on fighting but to work on the martial arts. Exclusively. I think it will be peaceful and interesting.


 
From what I hear it will be WORK too.

It may be Wushu but it takes a DAMN lot of strength and endurance to do. 

As for the Qigong, good luck to you.

I am considering looking for an old Taoist the next time I know I am going to Beijing (and there is an old Taoist temple in Beijing http://www.ebeijing.gov.cn/Tour/ScenicSpots/t159133.htm ) to work on some Taoist qigong I am interested in.


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## jks9199 (Jun 2, 2007)

Em MacIntosh said:


> I want to eventually progress to fire gong and bone marrow cleansing, but look at it as a chance to train in peace for a change, but to train hard.  It will cost me aprox $7000 per year which is cheaper than a year's worth of living expenses in canada.  I won't have to work, just train all day.  I already know how to defend myself, but my level of actual martial arts training is low.  I'm more interested in learning the traditional training, combat aplicable, of course.  I want to see it for myself, because I'm a little tired of the speculation.  I'm taking mandarin in september for a year before I go, and they also teach it over there.  I've also wanted to visit china all my life.


I'd strongly -- VERY strongly! -- urge you to verify your ideas, and make sure that your plans are actually feasible.  I suspect that it'll be more expensive than you expect, and that there may be legal hassles with the visas that you haven't anticipated.  I also strongly suspect that a few months of Mandarin won't be enough...

I'm not trying to squash your dream.  But I also don't want you to get over there with unrealistic or even impossible plans -- and then have to scramble and go home disappointed.  So -- just do your homework before you go, so that your trip is what you dream it will be.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 2, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> I'd strongly -- VERY strongly! -- urge you to verify your ideas, and make sure that your plans are actually feasible. I suspect that it'll be more expensive than you expect, and that there may be legal hassles with the visas that you haven't anticipated. I also strongly suspect that a few months of Mandarin won't be enough...
> 
> I'm not trying to squash your dream. But I also don't want you to get over there with unrealistic or even impossible plans -- and then have to scramble and go home disappointed. So -- just do your homework before you go, so that your trip is what you dream it will be.


 
Actually most of the time the price they quote covers it in China for these type of packages; training, room and board, as well as Chinese language classes. And in some cases even a sight seeing tour or 2. But I am not sure if it covers the plane ticket and in some cases (Chen Village) they will help you with the visa. Not sure about Shaolin. You have to take into account that currently $7000, if we are talking American, is 52,500 Chinese. Also it would not cover any additional travel or purchases. 

They want Foreigners to go there and train and not leave feeling lied to, they get a WHOLE lot more money that way. 

Also he is taking Mandarin for a year not 2 months but you are correct 2 months would certainly not be enough and to be honest a year is not enough either to really be able to communicate well. 

And you are also correct, it is a VERY good idea to check, recheck and check again to make sure everything is on the up and up. 

I do have a bit of advice however, unlike North America where the Countryside tends to be fairly safe (except for wild animals) China is not. The Countryside in China can actually be more dangerous than the larger cities and there is little help in the way of police, fire, and medical in the countryside of China.


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## jks9199 (Jun 2, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> They want Foreigners to go there and train and not leave feeling lied to, they get a WHOLE lot more money that way.
> 
> Also he is taking Mandarin for a year not 2 months but you are correct 2 months would certainly not be enough and to be honest a year is not enough either to really be able to communicate well.


 
I've just heard more than one horror story account where some idiot American shows up in Japan or China or Thailand or wherever, and expects to live at the dojo/temple/school, and be taught and is shocked and amazed when they ask how they intend to support themselves, and didn't even make minimal efforts to obtain appropriate introductions with the teachers they want to train with...  Or where people got scammed with supposed trips to train that were barely tourist run throughs -- if the trip even happened.

As for languages -- there are a few programs that can teach languages effectively and quickly, but everything I've heard about Chinese is that there are just so many dialects that it's insanely difficult to guess right.  And most of those programs are very expensive, immersion type programs.  (Of course, I guess he's gonna get himself an immersion program, anyway!)


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 2, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> I've just heard more than one horror story account where some idiot American shows up in Japan or China or Thailand or wherever, and expects to live at the dojo/temple/school, and be taught and is shocked and amazed when they ask how they intend to support themselves, and didn't even make minimal efforts to obtain appropriate introductions with the teachers they want to train with... Or where people got scammed with supposed trips to train that were barely tourist run throughs -- if the trip even happened.
> 
> As for languages -- there are a few programs that can teach languages effectively and quickly, but everything I've heard about Chinese is that there are just so many dialects that it's insanely difficult to guess right. And most of those programs are very expensive, immersion type programs. (Of course, I guess he's gonna get himself an immersion program, anyway!)


 
Generally they teach Mandarin at these things, particularly if he is going to the North. However you are very correct dialect makes a BIG difference.

Mandarin (4 tones) Thank You = Xie Xie
Cantonese (6 tones) Thank you = (Phonetically) Dor Jhay (Spelling is not be correct here)
And that is just 2 dialects. 

My Wife only speaks Mandarin (Native) and she has had little to no problems all over China. Most people under 40 or 50 speak Mandarin now but older it is not as likely and in deep country side I am not sure. Another close friend of mine speaks both Mandarin and Cantonese (Native) but he uses Mandarin more outside of Guangzhou and Hong Kong.

I came across a charlatan in Beijing that claimed to know Yang style and push hands but once he meant me and found out my lineage he all of a sudden did not know push hands that well and all he knew was 24 form. But then again I was not paying him up front nor did my housing and food depend on him. So I agree you need to be careful. 

But if it is legitimate Shaolin it should be OK but I agree he needs to check and make sure.


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## Em MacIntosh (Jun 3, 2007)

All my current training is to get me fit enough of mind and body to begin learning seriously.  I have an additional 10,000 available for unseen expenses.  Room, board and training are paid for initially.  I will be paying someone 100CD to meet me at beijing and escort me to the location.  I'm under the assumption they'll know I don't have a good grasp of the language.  Air fare is not covered.  I will be learning from shaolin monks from the Song Shan temple at the Siping City MA Academy in Siping City, Jilin Province.  So hopefully I'll learn enough mandarin to get to where I'm going.  Other than training I have little other plans.  There are two dogs at the academy to take for walks with you and I would definitely want to stay close by.  I have a list of the names and rankings of the fighting monks, including Shi De Lin and Shi De Hu who are the primary instructors.  They also teach souther styles as well as qigong, bagua, xingyi and taiji.  This will be my entire introduction to CMA as I've never taken anything (JKD is american right?) except karate, kickboxing and jiu-jitsu.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 3, 2007)

Em MacIntosh said:


> All my current training is to get me fit enough of mind and body to begin learning seriously. I have an additional 10,000 available for unseen expenses. Room, board and training are paid for initially. I will be paying someone 100CD to meet me at beijing and escort me to the location. I'm under the assumption they'll know I don't have a good grasp of the language. Air fare is not covered. I will be learning from shaolin monks from the Song Shan temple at the Siping City MA Academy in Siping City, Jilin Province. So hopefully I'll learn enough mandarin to get to where I'm going. Other than training I have little other plans. There are two dogs at the academy to take for walks with you and I would definitely want to stay close by. I have a list of the names and rankings of the fighting monks, including Shi De Lin and Shi De Hu who are the primary instructors. They also teach souther styles as well as qigong, bagua, xingyi and taiji. This will be my entire introduction to CMA as I've never taken anything (JKD is american right?) except karate, kickboxing and jiu-jitsu.


 
Sounds good

And bagua, xingyi and taiji are Internal Northern styles


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## Em MacIntosh (Jun 3, 2007)

Indeed.
There will be many surprises.
Willpower.


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## kal (Jun 4, 2007)

Excellent thread Mr Kennedy. Welcome to the forums!

Slightly off-topic, but I would *highly* recommend Mr Kennedy's book "Chinese Martial Arts Training Manuals."

http://www.amazon.com/Chinese-Marti...7400837?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1180920157&sr=1-2

Don't be deceived by the title: the book is *not* only about training manuals. It's quite simply one of the best books out there on Chinese martial arts history and practices. Get this book if you want a thorough and BS-free look at Chinese martial arts and are not afraid to have some cherished myths destroyed.

One of the best chapters IMO is "How Did Chinese Martial Artists Make a Living?"


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## Em MacIntosh (Jun 4, 2007)

Thanks for your input, guys.
Sorry 'bout the thread hijack.
I know I would never buy or be particularly interested in an "ancient manual".  I feel they would have nothing to offer that we don't already know.  For posterity it's worth preserving.  I know I can't judge a good fake from the real thing myself.


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## IronMonkey (Jun 26, 2007)

Em MacIntosh said:


> I want to eventually progress to fire gong and bone marrow cleansing, but look at it as a chance to train in peace for a change, but to train hard. It will cost me aprox $7000 per year which is cheaper than a year's worth of living expenses in canada. I won't have to work, just train all day. I already know how to defend myself, but my level of actual martial arts training is low. I'm more interested in learning the traditional training, combat aplicable, of course. I want to see it for myself, because I'm a little tired of the speculation. I'm taking mandarin in september for a year before I go, and they also teach it over there. I've also wanted to visit china all my life.


 
You would probably get more authentic Shaolin training at the temple in Houston, Tx or at Shi Yan Ming's temple in New York, than you will from the actors at "the" Shaolin Temple. If you really want to know more, ask over on the forum at Russbo.com and you'll get first hand info from others who have been there.


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