# What is the real value of a Black Belt today



## RCastillo (Feb 2, 2003)

In my short 21 year journey into the arts, I can remember back, when being a Black Belt meant something special.

Now, I kinda wonder. People don't have the discipline they used to have . People aren't tough, or at least, have the heart to work hard, fight, and stick around for the duration.

People just want to seem to want a workout, and thats it. You try to meet/give, what the public wants, without trying to water down your art, or your own values.

I know you don't want to control peoples lives, as I want to be able to control my own, but it seems we're almost having to chase some people to get them to stay. I know my own instructors never chased me.(Unless it was a commercial setting) but I remember busting my butt to give it my all too.

I even know some BB that have slowed down for some reason, or another. I always thought that others wanted to strive for the top, but that seems less, and less. I understand that life goes on and other things happen.

At times, it's even made me question what I'm doing, but I'm tied in, and have an obligation to my self, and instructors. I never wanted to go back in being the way I used to be and left things unfinished, and have now become a better person. But I also need to pass these things on, and I'm still searching.

Master Tracy has said before, "No matter what, all your students will eventually leave you!"Am I unrealistic in my view on these  things here? Unless something goes horribly wrong, he will pass on before I leave him, and I feel like I owe him, as I do my parents, who are also gone now. I even feel obligation to my instructors I'm no longer with, but because they taught me, I feel tied to them as well. The obligation continues, but it seems to be a dying concept  today.

Did I get left behind, or what?

Your view, and opinions are appreciated!

Thanks to all.:asian:


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## ProfessorKenpo (Feb 2, 2003)

Good to hear someone else with alot of the same viewpoints I have as religious as I am about Kenpo.   I don't know if we'll ever figure these people out Ricardo but I'm just training for me and those who want my knowledge, and are willing to suffer a bit to get it, physically and mentally as I did.   It was well worth my time and effort to do so in my eyes.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## Jill666 (Feb 2, 2003)

I am truly proud of what I accomplished- it wasn't easy, and I value it.

But I have just started, and want much much more.

Some students at my dojo feel the instructor is too strict, where I've always felt he isn't strict at all.

If you feel you are holding on to outdated values, well keep doing it, please.:cheers:


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## Seig (Feb 3, 2003)

Bottom line, "Average People don't get black belts".  Acheivers earn black belts.


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## rachel (Feb 3, 2003)

seig, Well said!


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## feintem (Feb 3, 2003)

belts mean nothing any more.When they are given out like wellfare.When I train with clyde!  belt what belt? GI what  GI? We bring our cups (lol) You know. the only thing that matters is that you bring is respect, loyalty,blood, and honor. That is  some of things that l look for in black belt. 







If this is wrong I dont want to be rignt.
Michael Grilli


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## Brother John (Feb 3, 2003)

It's true that many black belts (note the lower case b's) have lowered the social perception of what it is to be a Black Belt... and it's a shame! 
BUT:
Now, those who hold them and earned them the way they were meant to be earned (blood/sweat/tears/time) can PROVE their worth instead of it being assumed. 

Diamonds shine brightest while surrounded by carbon.
Just something to think about.

Your Brother
John


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## jfarnsworth (Feb 3, 2003)

The belts actually mean something to me. Yeah anyone can buy a belt anytime they wish if that's what they would prefer. My first insturctor was one which you never asked for a test he told you when you were ready. Never at any one point did I ever take a belt promotion based on the good 'ole boys club. I never have nor will I ever in the future. If I were to sit on a specific degree for 10 or 15 years then that would be fine with me. It's unfortunate that most people these days wants something for nothing with as little effort as possible.  I prefer on the other hand to have people around me say ok, yeah, that guy actually deserves to have the right to wear that belt.


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## Dave Simmons (Feb 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> *In my short 21 year journey into the arts, I can remember back, when being a Black Belt meant something special.
> 
> Now, I kinda wonder. People don't have the discipline they used to have . People aren't tough, or at least, have the heart to work hard, fight, and stick around for the duration.
> ...




Another variation on this theme is when the instructors drive away their students. Without considering the consequences. Ricardo I agree with your feelings on this issue.


Dave Simmons

Twin Dragon Kenpo Karate

http://www.mnkenpo.com


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## Michael Billings (Feb 3, 2003)

If the belt does not mean anything, then why strive so hard to get one?  It means something to me, each and every one.  Anyone who says that they don't matter should take a long hard look at why they say that.  It is insulting to those of us who tested and earned ours over the decades.  It also presents the new student with an unrealistic if not false impression regarding the value.  

Don't demean the Belt.  Rather look at the person who is wearing it.  

Some people deserve the belt they wear, as they did everything their system requires to earn it.  There are some systems that are more limited than Kenpo in terms of volume of material.  Likewise there are others with more.  Mr. Parker knew where you were with just a few minutes of watching how you moved.  It was an enormous compliment to be told "you move well".  I take that same compliment from some of the seniors, with the same spirit and meaning.  

Judging others is a sad way to spend your time, as is comparing our Art to others.  It is like apples and oranges to me.  Some people want to lower it to the lowest common denominater, i.e. "My daddy can whip your daddy."  Or the "I can kick your butt."  If that is what it is about to you, so be it!  But there is a whole universe of the Martial Arts you are missing.

Judge not lest you be judged.  OK, so we are judged all the time, tournaments, gradings or tests, of our performance by our teachers.  You just have to realize, just because a Black Belt (caps intended) from a McDojo does Taekwondo and has a repitoire that seems limited to a Kenpoist, he may well be a good representative of his teachers and Art, and really not know what else is out there.  Likewise, we may not know 30 froms, limitless weapons, and be able to cartwheel in the air, inverted, with a twist.  So what is your point? Do we not deserve our belts ... who is to judge?  

Feel free if you have to, I just find myself getting more tolerant of some things as I grow into my Belt ... and less tolerant of others.  It is all a matter of saliency, and do I really need to worry about this.  The proof is in the doing, and how you feel about yourself and your students.  One of my favorite quotes is from Joy Hyams' *Zen and the Martial Arts*, "It is always better to improve and strengthen your own line or knowledge than try and cut your opponents line"  -Ed Parker.

Oss,
-Michael


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## Kirk (Feb 3, 2003)

Great post, Mr Billings.


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## KenpoDave (Feb 4, 2003)

expect everybody's black belt to mean as much to them as mine does to me.  My rank is a symbol to me of the blood, sweat, and years I put into training, and a symbol of my "place" in my journey.  It is as important to me as a high school diploma or my college degree, and I put more time into it than either of those!

Those who own a black belt that means nothing to them, frankly, have missed something along the way.  But, my belt is for me, and I train for me.


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## Seig (Feb 5, 2003)

We get a lot of visitors to my school.  Some are black belts, some are not.  Occassionally we get a black belt that is just not that good.  When my students quiestion me about it, this is what I tell them.
"Remember, there are black belts and then there are Black Belts, just like there are doctors and there was a dentist named 'Doc' Holliday."


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## synergy kenpo (Feb 5, 2003)

belts have their good points and their bad yes many of have trained very hard over the years to get our black belts and and i doubt if any of us would let anyone take them away but at the end of the day can we agree that it is the knowledge and how one moves that really displays where one fits in the scheme of things.

just a thought 

JR


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## anthonyc (Feb 5, 2003)

A belt is just a belt, regardless of the color. A true Blackbelt is what is inside the individual. In my school we have what is called the 3% rule. 3% of the students want to train hard and earn their promotions and belts, the other 97% go through the motions, don't try very hard, yet they pay the bills for the 3% so the school can remain open. Its a business and a fact of life. I appreciate the 97% because they maintain an environment that is great to train in. Do I have the same respect for them when they receive their Blackbelts as I do when someone from the 3% does? No way. And it makes me wonder when I meet a Blackbelt from a different school, were they part of the 3% or just going through the motions?


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## warriorsage (Feb 5, 2003)

> We bring our cups (lol) You know



Because it didn't seem like Clyde's cup helped him at all when he was dummying Thrusting Salute for you. I guess you were just giving him payback for busting your studio lights with his shocking good looks. And, in turn, I guess he was getting even with me for laughing about it when he scooped my groin and put me out of commission.

Seriously, I enjoyed the workout and look forward to sharing the mats with you guys again.

Ron


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## feintem (Feb 6, 2003)

Ron, anytime you need a floor come on down 








Michael


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## Ronin (Mar 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> *In my short 21 year journey into the arts, I can remember back, when being a Black Belt meant something special.
> 
> Now, I kinda wonder. People don't have the discipline they used to have . People aren't tough, or at least, have the heart to work hard, fight, and stick around for the duration.
> ...


 I share your thoughts as well I do agree some people have lost a step or two, myself being one of them.  I went through having a lot of training partners that all vanished after our school closed down.  I lost a lot of friends and some of them have returned and have lost the desire to really work out.   Some just like to B.S. about the old days. I remember desiring my BB more than dating the hottest gal on the planet, that like everything changed in time.  Here I am on the verge of my BB test and for some reason almost as if to postponed it and stretch out the past memories I dilly dally around and am under the belief that "I dont have it like I use to " and am hesitant to accept my rank.  I dont know if its because I will be a black belt in an era where the flame is almost dead.  Who knows?  I struggle daily to rekindle the flame. I also frown on mysef for dedicating time to this forum when maybe I should be working out,  maybe I shouldnt work on debates and work more on my skills.  Well who knows what the tide brings in, and tomorrow the sun will rise.  Perhaps then I will find the anwsers.  Good post.


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## Old Warrior (Mar 9, 2003)

In Kumdo/Kendo there are no belts.  There are ranks but you would never know them.  In our dojang, below shodan, everyone wears a white gi.  But, people who come to train from other places often have a traditional blue gi although they are not shodan. 

All that matters is the quality of your Kumdo.  Your "belt" only determines your place in line for the traditional opening bows.


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## bdparsons (Mar 9, 2003)

My take on the issue is that most black belts will view the acheivement of making the rank in the light that their instructor views it.

"I dont know if its because I will be a black belt in an era where the flame is almost dead."... I believe this was written by someone coming up on their black belt test.

Please hear me on this: The flame is internal. No one determines the brightness of your flame except you. If your serious about your art, then your flame will probably spark a few more flames in the hearts of others. That's how the art has always been passed down, only the serious perpetuate the art.

Respects,
Bill Parsons


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## RCastillo (Mar 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Ronin _
> *I share your thoughts as well I do agree some people have lost a step or two, myself being one of them.  I went through having a lot of training partners that all vanished after our school closed down.  I lost a lot of friends and some of them have returned and have lost the desire to really work out.   Some just like to B.S. about the old days. I remember desiring my BB more than dating the hottest gal on the planet, that like everything changed in time.  Here I am on the verge of my BB test and for some reason almost as if to postponed it and stretch out the past memories I dilly dally around and am under the belief that "I dont have it like I use to " and am hesitant to accept my rank.  I dont know if its because I will be a black belt in an era where the flame is almost dead.  Who knows?  I struggle daily to rekindle the flame. I also frown on mysef for dedicating time to this forum when maybe I should be working out,  maybe I shouldnt work on debates and work more on my skills.  Well who knows what the tide brings in, and tomorrow the sun will rise.  Perhaps then I will find the anwsers.  Good post. *



This reply by Ronin is almost scary. It sounds exactly like me all over again. Granted, my situation is not unique, but it seems that everyone else seems to do well, and I don't. So to see someone else in the same situation is almost unreal!:asian:


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## Nightingale (Mar 9, 2003)

the value of a black belt...

about $6 at your local martial arts supply store.

It's the value of theskill of the person wearing the belt that is important. 

The value of earning the rank is the same as it has always been, and buying a rank makes it worthless.

The issue is how to tell the real thing from the imposter, and the easiest way to go about it is to watch and listen.


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## satans.barber (Mar 9, 2003)

I think a black belt means something different to each person inside.

If it means nothing to you inside, but you like wearing or showing it to people, then it's a little worthless! You might as well have sent of for one of those £99 video courses including black belt and certificate they advertise in Martial Arts Illustrated 

My black belt grading is in 4 weeks, and I'll have trained for it for 6 years. If I do manage to get it, to me it will symbolise commitment more than anything else, and hopefully a little understanding! 

Ian.


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## Michael Billings (Mar 11, 2003)

Good luck on your test.  It means what it means.  And who cares what other's think of it's value.  I think that is what was meant by it's value is internal.  

It is more than that in truth.  It is an external symbol of a journey each individual made on his own.  Discounting of course, those who purchased them via internet with "No lessons, no instructor, and not  certified".  You get what you pay for, and hopefully so will those who seek to defraud the innocent by marketing themselves that way.  Additional credentials for the wall if you are already a black belt in another system, to me, is even worse .... because you know exactly what you are doing and it degrades the instructor and association which may actually have promoted you.  

DONE with the RANT!  Moving on.  Home from teaching tonight, tired, worn out, but feeling good about my students and where they are going and how they are committed to a not so easy road.  I am proud of all of them.

Oss,
-Michael
Kenpo-Texas.com


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## yilisifu (Mar 12, 2003)

You will become another link in a long chain.  Make sure that you're a strong one......never rust out.


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## theletch1 (Mar 12, 2003)

The belt only means as much to the individual as the art means to that individual.  I take my kenpo almost like a religion and strive to be the absolute best that I can be.  I have traveled the threefold path as diligently as possible and know that when the time comes to accept the responsibility of training the future BBs of this fine art (my own grandchildren, perhaps) that I will do my best to impart to them the heart and soul of what I feel about every rank I have attained in this art.  The association that I have made with many of the other practitioners on this forum gives me continued hope that at least on some level there are still men and women who take this thing we do as seriously as it deserves to be taken.

respectfully
theletch1
:asian:


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## GouRonin (Mar 12, 2003)

Ricardo, I think you have some valid concerns.

I've long been a proponent about belts being worthless today but I think that we also have to remember that times change and so do people. We don't live in the same world anymore and standards change whether we like them to or not.

It's ok to be idealistic about something that was and ok to hold yourself to that standard. I do that myself. We all have our particular idea of what was and is. Many times people often lament for the good old days. But that was then and this is now. Change is a part of life.

The same change should also allow you to avoid being _tied in_, and give you the freedom to explore. It's possible to hold obligations but many instructors hold unrealistic views of the depth of their obligations as do students. I suppose the trick is to determine what depth you are willing to work with. 

Finally, I will leave you with the thoughts my first boxing coach gave to one of his fighters when he was thinking about not being sure if he wanted to continue. The speech is paraphrased of course:

_"You want to leave? Fine quit. No one will care. No one but yourself. If you don't have what it takes to be a champ on the inside for yourself, then no one is going to strap a belt around your waist. Its one less person that the rest have to fight against to get to the top. Except they didn't have to take you out to get there. You took yourself out. When gut check time came around you were absent and no one will have to live with that but yourself when you're old and you look back and wonder where you could have gone because you never took a shot at it.

So quit. If you imagine losing before you even get in the ring then I don't want you in the ring at all. I've got guys who can barely walk and chew gum who come out every single chance they get because they want something so bad they can taste it in every bite of food they eat and every glass of water they drink. They pay the price day after day and that is what being a champ is all about. A champ starts on the inside.

So quit. It's one less person for me to have to train and more time for the others who want to be here. But don't ever kid yourself that someone other than yourself made you quit. You quit because you didn't have what it takes to be a winner and if you can live with that for the rest of your life and want to apply that attitude to everything else you do then there is the door. If not, strap some gloves on and get back into the fight, but the choice is always yours._


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## baronv (Mar 13, 2003)

Like everywhere else, I see a lot of people getting into MA just to "get a black belt". Heck I see people who have trained years less than me somehow getting the same rank as I, it's just sometimes the masters stop caring and just want o keep their student's attendance in class up so they can continue getting money from them. Unfortunately that means that the insructors give away belts a lot to people. Heck, due to the advancement method at my school myself and some of my friends can be black belts right now, but we've gotten to the point where we all accepted the fact that it'd be really sorry for us to become black belts and know that we weren't that good to really accept it. I fear though that some of our peers do not see it the same way and would gladly take the next belt as a way to impress their co-workers around the water cooler.


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## Crazy Chihuahua (Mar 13, 2003)

> "Average People don't get black belts". Acheivers earn black belts



If only that were true.
Welcome to the modern world of commercial martial arts, ladies and gentlemen.
It should be a realistic goal for every hard-working, committed, dedicated, loyal and genuinely interested student to attain at least a first degree black belt. The reality is, however, that people can now buy their black belt, and thsi is indeed a sad thing.
I'm glad some of you out there are still with me in the belief that a black belt should be something special and unique, while also unifying. You guys are the people I don't mind seeing wearing that black piece of satin or canvas or the once-black-now-greyish-white rag (of you guys I am jealous, because my last belt was a Tokaido, but my new one is a Proforce that just doesn't want to fade and I really miss that look, *sigh*) that you tie on every day to train with.

You're the people who keep us strong and I can only hope that I am one of you.


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 13, 2003)

The belt is only a symbol of achievement  based upon the opinion and curriculum of the person doing the promotion.  

Since there are no "world standards",  there are many - many variations.

I agree with many of the posters............. it really is really not what you wear or how many stripes you have, but what you know and how you share that knowledge is what  counts.   

The Kenpo Flame is in your heart not on your belt.

:asian:


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## Michael Billings (Mar 13, 2003)

Well said and so true.

-Michael


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## GouRonin (Mar 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Crazy Chihuahua _
> *If only that were true.
> Welcome to the modern world of commercial martial arts, ladies and gentlemen.
> It should be a realistic goal for every hard-working, committed, dedicated, loyal and genuinely interested student to attain at least a first degree black belt. The reality is, however, that people can now buy their black belt, and thsi is indeed a sad thing.
> ...



It must really piss you off then that Joe Foster re-organized his system to allow everyone to grade two belt levels up after paying the grading fee so he can pay his lawyers to stay out of jail after being convicted on sex charges against his students. But I suppose it would also piss me off if the guy who did that to a system I was studying also started a video grading service through the internet.

But...that's just me.


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## Crazy Chihuahua (Mar 14, 2003)

Not really. Not everyone qualified to test up and only a few qualified for two ranks. I only tested up one belt and I was glad of the chance.
I'll thank you not to make assumptions about what pleases or angers me, but for future reference, making assumptions about me is one of the things that angers me.


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## Crazy Chihuahua (Mar 14, 2003)

Oh, and the videos.

They are a home study program for people who want to learn the art but can't get to a school. You still pay a test fee and you have to send a testing tape for inspection by a board of examiners member, which you can fail on. Buying the videos does not mean you automatically fly through the system, you still have to be proficient. And they are also available to regular students as a training aid. They were in production long before any of that started and they are on our website to allow people all over the world access to one of the greatest systems of kenpo available today. Buy one, you might learn something, plus, I'm in a few of them, so there's a bonus


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## GouRonin (Mar 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Crazy Chihuahua _
> *Buy one, you might learn something *



It's possible. But I don't support convicted pedophiles.


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## Chaos (Mar 14, 2003)

I know this one is out of the blue and it is a strange reversal of the topic, but I am curious to know, If one with a Black Belt status were to wear a White Belt would that be deceptive and dishonorable or would it be the opposite? I would think that since you could assume that the man or woman wearing the belt was of low rank would that be thier failing or yours as a honorable person. I personnaly think it rides on the line. Your opinions?


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## Crazy Chihuahua (Mar 14, 2003)

At a tournament, you should wear your highest rank, any other time, that's your perrogative, i guess....


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## Michael Billings (Mar 14, 2003)

Without the context (tournament, your own school, another system, or visiting another school in your own system, etc.), the question has too many variables and I cannot answer it with any degree of certainty.

There is nothing borderline about it, unless you are trying to be deceptive (like at a tournament) ... then it is plain wrong.

You may want to start this question as a new thread.

-Michael
Kenpo-Texas.com


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## Nightingale (Mar 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Chaos _
> *I know this one is out of the blue and it is a strange reversal of the topic, but I am curious to know, If one with a Black Belt status were to wear a White Belt would that be deceptive and dishonorable or would it be the opposite? I would think that since you could assume that the man or woman wearing the belt was of low rank would that be thier failing or yours as a honorable person. I personnaly think it rides on the line. Your opinions? *



It depends... is that person wearing a white belt to deceive, or to accurately reflect his or her knowledge of the particular art in question?

I have seen black belts switch styles and put on white belts, because they are beginners in their new art... they tend to advance quicker, but they're still white belts.  Personally, I switched schools and chose to tie on a lower rank, because it was an accurate reflection of my knowledge in comparison to the other students in that school.  They had a different curriculum and different requirements.  When I compete, I still wear a brown belt, because that's the level I last competed at, and it wouldn't be fair for me to wear a yellow belt and fight yellow belts, because I can hold my own with the brown belts most of the time.  I wear a yellow belt in the studio only, out of respect to my new instructors and the other students. At seminars and tournaments, I wear my highest rank.


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## Steve Howard (Mar 15, 2003)

I think Nightinggale hit this one right on the head.  The proper conduct in the proper context.  Right on, Nightinggale.

Steve Howard
www.kenporaw.bravepages.com


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## Kenpomachine (Mar 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *The Kenpo Flame is in your heart not on your belt.
> 
> :asian: *



I like this, may I steal it for a signature?:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 18, 2003)

I like it too.  LOL (just post who you got it from)
:asian:


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## RCastillo (Mar 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *I like it too.  LOL (just post who you got it from)
> :asian: *


Uh oh, copyright infringement on the Goldendragon?........you will die! 

Never cheat the Dragon!


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## jules (Mar 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by anthonyc _
> *A belt is just a belt, regardless of the color. A true Blackbelt is what is inside the individual. In my school we have what is called the 3% rule. 3% of the students want to train hard and earn their promotions and belts, the other 97% go through the motions, don't try very hard, yet they pay the bills for the 3% so the school can remain open. Its a business and a fact of life. I appreciate the 97% because they maintain an environment that is great to train in. Do I have the same respect for them when they receive their Blackbelts as I do when someone from the 3% does? No way. And it makes me wonder when I meet a Blackbelt from a different school, were they part of the 3% or just going through the motions? *




            :cheers: Exactly!!


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## stacks (Mar 20, 2003)

the Black Belt

I feel that the black belt is truly something that should be earned not bought! the hard work and dedication one buts forth to be awarded (Shodan)  their first black belt and every dan after is a mark of loyalty and the love for the art, however with all the "new and improved" martial art schools popping up the belt seems to be watered down. I beleive that the one wearing the belt and the one who earned the belt shows in the eyes and body language (the self respect and self esteem shine) were as one who bought the belt does not shine so bright. They will find in time that being a Black Belt is different then wearing one 

stacks :karate:


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by stacks _*
> The Black Belt.....
> They will find in time that "BEING" a Black Belt is different then wearing one!! stacks :karate: *



I totally agree with you Stacks!!

:asian:


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## Kenpomachine (Mar 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by stacks _
> *the one who earned the belt shows in the eyes and body language (the self respect and self esteem shine) were as one who bought the belt does not shine so bright. They will find in time that being a Black Belt is different then wearing one
> 
> stacks :karate: *



You rock!! :asian:


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