# best lethal grip breaks



## Jusroc (Oct 3, 2021)

In a world populated by Jiu Jutsu / Judo / Sambo experts 
The possibility that we may be attacked by someone who knows how to grip is much more likely than say in the early 90s.

Getting attacked or in a fight, with a Jiu Jitsu expert must be one of the biggest nightmare scenario's for anyone who 
does not do a grappling martial art to an advanced enough level...

So. For those who are not grappling experts, perhaps it would be wise to learn how to break the grips of expert grippers
and considering how lethal the attacks potentially could be, i think it would be wise to know how to not only break the main
grips used by BJJ / Judo experts, but also it would be wise to do damage to those who are gripping, so as to do your best
to put their weapons out of action (although, please note, that if someone is very skilled in either BJJ or Judo, they will likely 
still be able to put many of the locks and even strangles on, as well as even throw even with broken wrists / fingers, if their the
hard as nails types... which do exist... i think the Gracies have proven their ability to not only give but take punishment)...

still.....
for predominantly striking martial arts... learning to break grips, i would say is a new essential skill to add to your repertoire of techniques.

So.... anyone any techniques they wanna share. 
I will start by referring you to Wally Jay Ju Jutsu, who's hybrid Ju Jitsu, which he developed during the 60s and onwards.

Prof Wally Jay Finger Locks


Professor Wally Jay's Judo / Ju Jutsu included finger locks, which I think would make most sport Judoka's upset.

Professor Wally Jay finger Locks


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 3, 2021)

Grip breaks are one of the first things a lot of arts teach. And it's been that way for at least 20 years.

That aside, my main question- how does one make a grip break lethal?


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## BrendanF (Oct 3, 2021)

I don't have any particular techniques to share - I'm not the best at breaking grips.. my Judo teacher's grip is exceptionally strong.  I would not recommend targeting the fingers myself though, for a couple of reasons.  I think fighting the grip using movement of one's entire body, using leverage and large movement to break the grip would be preferable; this enables you to remain aware of all that is happening between you and your opponent, where concerted focus on a small task such as wrenching fingers may narrow one's perception.  Then too, I've broken every single finger on both hands at one time or another, and none of them stopped me from engaging in what I was doing..


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## geezer (Oct 3, 2021)

Jusroc said:


> ...still ....for predominantly striking martial arts... learning to break grips, i would say is a new essential skill to add to your repertoire of techniques.
> So.... anyone any techniques they wanna share.


Countering the moves of a skilled grappler is entirely different subject than just breaking a strong _grip. _My comments are directed just to this latter subject: the strong grip and joint locks.

When someone grabs you with the intent of doing a joint lock or something similar, the simplest, quickest response is often the best. So while we do train a variety of grip breaks and grip reversals, I have had the best results with a simple_ punch._

In our Wing Chun we do a _lot _of contact/sensitivity training so the instant you feel something a bit _off,  ..._i.e. someone initiating a grapple or lock,m you instantly strike on centerline. Strike _hard_. It often releases or at least _relaxes_ the grip enough to apply one of the follow up techniques, such as _huen sau_ (circle hand), to free the hand or reverse the grapple.

Another technique often used against an attempted joint lock is any of several versions of _tut sau _or "freeing hand". This is a technique in which the grappled hand is extended and the rear hand scrapes forward along the forearm like a spoke-shave clearing away the grappler's hand ....and ideally continuing forward  becoming a punch striking your opponent. In this fashion, it is frequently combined with the direct punch response described above.

This simple _freeing arm _technique is so valued in the WC system that different versions of it are repeated in all three empty-handed forms, _Siu Nim Tau, Chum Kiu_, and _Biu Tze. _And while there are ever-so-many other responses also trained, our philosophy stresses simplicity. It is far better to train _one technique to the level where it can beat many attacks_ than the converse: to learn many techniques to counter one attack. I'll go with freeing hand and a punch!


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## drop bear (Oct 3, 2021)

The best grip breaks are those that do not expose you for counter attack. More than ones that do damage. 

So be careful of giving up your back or dropping your guard with this idea that you are going to do some unopposed finger bend.


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## Hanzou (Oct 3, 2021)

Let me just stress the extreme unlikelihood of an expert BJJ exponent attacking you. BJJ is a rather expensive martial art to learn, and its typical practitioners are middle to upper class suburbanites and their children. If you do run across a criminal grappler in the US, it's more than likely an ex- high school wrestler or football player.  In that case, I wouldn't worry too much about locks and chokes, and be more worried about dealing with body slams, tackles, body holds, ground and pound, explosiveness, and raw strength.

However, in the unlikely event you do run across a high-level BJJ exponent who for whatever reason wants to turn you into a pretzel, those Wally Jay finger locks ain't going to work. The 2 main reasons is because BJJ trains you how to hide your fingers from getting grabbed, and because a BJJ exponent typically doesn't go for a lock or choke until they have you in an inferior position. Additionally some chokes and locks, like the Triangle Choke or Omoplata don't really use fingers to apply the hold/choke.

I'm also really curious how someone thinks grip breaking is going to help if they've never grappled before. I mean, yeah, grip breaking can work if you know what you're doing  in the initial stages. However, do you really think you can beat an expert grappler at grip fighting and just grip break everything they grab? Also how exactly do you grip break a double leg takedown? Further if I have you in say, side control, how are you going to grip fight me? I'm not holding you down with grips, I'm holding you down with weight and pressure. Hell, I've tapped out to people who were simply really good at applying top pressure in side control, no submission required.

Honestly your best bet is to spend about 6 months at a legit BJJ school and learn the basics. Learning how to sweep, escape, closed guard, get back to your feet, hide your limbs, and yes, to grip break is infinitely better than watching Wally Jay finger breaking videos.


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## geezer (Oct 3, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> I'm also really curious how someone thinks grip breaking is going to help if they've never grappled before. I mean, yeah, grip breaking can work if you know what you're doing  in the initial stages. However, do you really think you can beat an expert grappler at grip fighting and just grip break everything they grab? Also how exactly do you grip break a double leg takedown? Further if I have you in say, side control, how are you going to grip fight me? I'm not holding you down with grips, I'm holding you down with weight and pressure.


Um ....yeah.

I'm totally ignorant about grappling other than wrestling as a kid in school, and I was pretty much thinking the same thing as what you said. The  term used in the title of the OP, "lethal grip" was like a red flag. IMO joint and wrist locks aren't "lethal grips". In my limited experience, standing joint locks seem pretty tough to pull off against violent resistance.

Now, just as a spectator mind you, I'd say a rear naked choke or triangle choke could damn well be_ lethal_ if someone chose not to release or something. But that's not what the OP seems to be talking about. Guess i'm confused, Hanzou.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 3, 2021)

Jusroc said:


> So.... anyone any techniques they wanna share.


This is "tearing".






This is "elbow pressing". This one will work 100%.


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## Hanzou (Oct 3, 2021)

geezer said:


> Um ....yeah.
> 
> I'm totally ignorant about grappling other than wrestling as a kid in school, and I was pretty much thinking the same thing as what you said. The  term used in the title of the OP, "lethal grip" was like a red flag. IMO joint and wrist locks aren't "lethal grips". In my limited experience, standing joint locks seem pretty tough to pull off against violent resistance.
> 
> Now, just as a spectator mind you, I'd say a rear naked choke or triangle choke could damn well be_ lethal_ if someone chose not to release or something. But that's not what the OP seems to be talking about. Guess i'm confused, Hanzou.



Yeah, those are really the only "lethal grips" he could be talking about, unless he means someone slamming you on your head via a suplex or a fireman carry. We really don't do those kind of throws in BJJ though, because we're far gentler folk. Joint locks typically aren't done by BJJers until they have achieved a superior position, and they're typically done on the ground because that's where you have more body control over your opponent. There are things like standing Kimuras and the standing Waki Gatame, but those are comparatively rare. Honestly, standing chokes are more common. BTW, this is standard BJJ talking, there's definitely elite BJJ people out there that can joint lock you while they are in inferior positions, and do all kinds of nasty stuff while on their feet, so yeah...

Perhaps the OP can clarify.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 3, 2021)

geezer said:


> "lethal grips".


Of course, if there is no clothes, there will be no grip.

Ususlly a monster grip is a grip that you can't break it apart.


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## Hanzou (Oct 3, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Of course, if there is no clothes, there will be no grip.
> 
> Ususlly a monster grip is a grip that you can't break it apart.



Thing is, someone doesn't need a grip to throw you, they can throw you with a body lock.

Check out this video of wrestling being used in "street fighting". Pretty much every throw is from a body lock;


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 3, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Thing is, someone doesn't need a grip to throw you, they can throw you with a body lock.
> 
> Check out this video of wrestling being used in "street fighting". Pretty much every throw is from a body lock;


You don't need grip to throw your opponent. But your grip can prevent your opponent from getting close to you.

Also by using your grip, you can pull your opponent. You can then take advantage on his resisting or yielding.


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## drop bear (Oct 3, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Let me just stress the extreme unlikelihood of an expert BJJ exponent attacking you. BJJ is a rather expensive martial art to learn, and its typical practitioners are middle to upper class suburbanites and their children. If you do run across a criminal grappler in the US, it's more than likely an ex- high school wrestler or football player.  In that case, I wouldn't worry too much about locks and chokes, and be more worried about dealing with body slams, tackles, body holds, ground and pound, explosiveness, and raw strength.
> 
> However, in the unlikely event you do run across a high-level BJJ exponent who for whatever reason wants to turn you into a pretzel, those Wally Jay finger locks ain't going to work. The 2 main reasons is because BJJ trains you how to hide your fingers from getting grabbed, and because a BJJ exponent typically doesn't go for a lock or choke until they have you in an inferior position. Additionally some chokes and locks, like the Triangle Choke or Omoplata don't really use fingers to apply the hold/choke.
> 
> ...



It is a fundamental defence regardless. I just spent some time with a competitive bjj black belt. And he warms up by breaking grips.

The theory is we get lazy and let people get position.

So grip breaking isn't necessarily going to hurt.

Most of his stuff from wrist grabs was literally just compressing your arms back in to your body. Which is really effective. But you are also facing and ready to fire back.


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## Hanzou (Oct 3, 2021)

drop bear said:


> It is a fundamental defence regardless. I just spent some time with a competitive bjj black belt. And he warms up by breaking grips.
> 
> The theory is we get lazy and let people get position.
> 
> So grip breaking isn't necessarily going to hurt.



Oh, I certainly agree. I'm simply saying you should learn it within a greater grappling sphere that also includes escapes, breakfalls, sweeps, etc. In short, you should learn it from a grappling school while you're learning to actually grapple. Doing grip breaking every other month at your karate school isn't going to do you much good.


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## drop bear (Oct 3, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Oh, I certainly agree. I'm simply saying you should learn it within a greater grappling sphere that includes escapes, sweeps, etc. In short, you should learn it from a grappling school while you're learning to actually grapple. Doing grip breaking every other month at your karate school isn't going to do you much good.



I think it is definitely better to learn to grapple. But I think it is also an independent skill. 

And I think there is a lot of garbage in that field. So a good grip breaking module is worth just learning anyway. 

It would be good information to get out there.


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## Hanzou (Oct 3, 2021)

drop bear said:


> I think it is definitely better to learn to grapple. But I think it is also an independent skill.
> 
> And I think there is a lot of garbage in that field. So a good grip breaking module is worth just learning anyway.
> 
> It would be good information to get out there.



Just so we understand each other here; You believe that dabbling in grip breaking alone is enough to stop an "expert grappler" from imposing their will on someone?


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## drop bear (Oct 3, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Just so we understand each other here; You believe that dabbling in grip breaking alone is enough to stop an "expert grappler" from imposing their will on someone?



No I am saying it is a worthwhile dip for basically anyone who wants to martial art.


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## Hanzou (Oct 4, 2021)

drop bear said:


> No I am saying it is a worthwhile dip for basically anyone who wants to martial art.



Okay cool. Thanks for clarifying.


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## Jusroc (Oct 4, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Grip breaks are one of the first things a lot of arts teach. And it's been that way for at least 20 years.
> 
> That aside, my main question- how does one make a grip break lethal?


Just to clarify. 
I would distinguish between normal grip non damaging grip breaks (as allowed in competition) against
grip breaks that dislocate joints, snap ligaments and tendons, rupture muscles etc.

In Judo and BJJ, there are various common grip breaks that are allowed.
I believe that Judo are more strict as to what types of grip breaks are allowed and what grip breaks are not allowed,
more so that BJJ. 

I am not sure if the IJF rules are still excluding 2 handed grip breaks, or grip breaks that also employ the use of leg force etc. Last time i refereed, there was strict rules about what was and what was not allowed.

Nonetheless, haven seen people in competition get their fingers accidentally damaged (which is easily done)
and haven had various small bones of my body also broken due to other people's use of excessive force,
and haven done aikido for a while, and experienced the excruciating pain when various wrist locks are applied,

I fully believe that grip breaks can cause significant if not semi permanent damage, if applied to that desired effect.
Even Wally Jay's finger locks, if applied with enough force, extremely quickly. in a split second has the potential to do enough damage to put off many attackers. As with the lethal knee attacks, that also would put someone out of action to enough extent to stop them from attacking you any more.

I have trained in Self defence systems that include grip breaks ,but which are not really pressure tested or trained to 
the level of resistance to get an idea of what works and what does not work.

As ungentlemanly it may be to use such vicious techniques against an expert attacker, and perhaps world really piss off someone who has trained for years so they can bully people with their superior technical BJJ skills (*please note i am not calling all BJJ practitioners bullies, but with any martial art that gives a person power, there will always be a portion of douche  bags that will use their new power to hurt their innocent victims. From what know, joining a BJJ club does not instantly make you the good guy, no offense. Sure, generally speaking most martial artists are good. But there are individuals and even cells of people who train for the wrong reason or who have no problem to hurt people with their newly found power).


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## Jusroc (Oct 4, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Let me just stress the extreme unlikelihood of an expert BJJ exponent attacking you. BJJ is a rather expensive martial art to learn, and its typical practitioners are middle to upper class suburbanites and their children. If you do run across a criminal grappler in the US, it's more than likely an ex- high school wrestler or football player.  In that case, I wouldn't worry too much about locks and chokes, and be more worried about dealing with body slams, tackles, body holds, ground and pound, explosiveness, and raw strength.
> 
> However, in the unlikely event you do run across a high-level BJJ exponent who for whatever reason wants to turn you into a pretzel, those Wally Jay finger locks ain't going to work. The 2 main reasons is because BJJ trains you how to hide your fingers from getting grabbed, and because a BJJ exponent typically doesn't go for a lock or choke until they have you in an inferior position. Additionally some chokes and locks, like the Triangle Choke or Omoplata don't really use fingers to apply the hold/choke.
> 
> ...


Just to clarify what i mean by my post.

I personally believe there isn't good or bad styles morally, the techniques are techniques.
It is purely down to the individual as to whether an individual will use their skills learnt at a martial art
to hurt people or not.

Even over my short life, i have known of various terrorist factions practicing a martial as a group
with the intention that they can then bully people even more that they did before.
In some cases, those trained in the various martial arts do go on to commit acts of terror.
But anyway, that's is changing the subject of the thread really. Just to clarify.

Not all people who put on a kimono are instantly innocent good guys.
I do not hate BJJ, I really love BJJ. 

But as said before, its not the techniques that are bad, its a tiny minority that would use theses techniques
to hurt people.

And this type of thing isn't new, for hundreds of years bad people have been known to abuse martial art techniques for personal gain or for pure sadism. For example. boxing was the style of choice for some thugs before various martial arts became popular. Again, no boxing coach teaches their students to go out and punch civilians heads in, but some choose to.

I am not saying the Gracies or even any BJJ instructor promotes this idea, but bad people exist.
And what if one of these bad people gets good at BJJ / Judo / Sambo / Wrestling.


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## Hanzou (Oct 4, 2021)

Jusroc said:


> Just to clarify.
> I would distinguish between normal grip non damaging grip breaks (as allowed in competition) against
> grip breaks that dislocate joints, snap ligaments and tendons, rupture muscles etc.



Uh, damaging locks that can dislocate joints, snap ligaments, and tear tendons are allowed in competition.


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 4, 2021)

Jusroc said:


> i think it would be wise to know how to not only break the main
> grips used by BJJ / Judo experts, but also it would be wise to do damage to those who are gripping, so as to do your best
> to put their weapons out of action


I'm quoting this bit of your initial post in order to clarify some confusion caused by your post title.

In both this and an earlier thread of yours you use the word "lethal" to mean something different from the common definition of the word. Normally "lethal" means "sufficient to cause death". In this thread and the other one, you are using it to mean "capable of causing injury", which is a different matter. Some of the comment in this thread and the other one are from people who think you are using the dictionary definition.

Also, some of the comments seem to think you are asking for ways to break "lethal grips" (such as a choke hold). Based on the quote above, I believe you are actually suggesting studying ways of breaking free of an opponent's grip which also do damage in the process. Am I correct?



Jusroc said:


> In Judo and BJJ, there are various common grip breaks that are allowed.
> I believe that Judo are more strict as to what types of grip breaks are allowed and what grip breaks are not allowed,
> more so that BJJ.
> 
> ...


In both Judo and BJJ, peeling back of individual fingers is not normally allowed in competition or most sparring rules. That's because in the heat of the moment it's too easy for damage to be done before your opponent can tap. However smart BJJ practitioners do learn to grip in such a way that makes it difficult to isolate the fingers effectively. This is partly for street application and partly because in competition there are always going to be some dirty fighters who subscribe to the rule that something is only illegal if the ref sees it.

Judo has in recent years adopted some additional restrictions on grip breaks (such as excluding 2 handed grip breaks), not for safety but to make the matches more spectator friendly. Audiences want to see the big throws, not 5 minutes of fighting to get a grip.

I have had a thumb badly broken (so that it needed surgery) from a sparring partner applying a grip break using his knee a little too enthusiastically. The technique he used was legal in BJJ competition, as far as I know, and I've used it and had it used against me before without injury. That time I just got unlucky. It's not something you could count on to do damage, but it's an effective grip break and if it inflicted injury in a real fight, that would be a bonus.

As far as the whole repertoire of finger locks and standing wrist locks against someone grabbing you, I have a few thoughts...

Such techniques can be valid under the right circumstances and in the right moment, but they are kind of low-percentage and require a significant foundation of grappling skill in order to apply effectively. I wouldn't recommend them for a non-grappler looking to use them as self-defense against an attacker who is a skilled grappler. 
Such techniques are generally demonstrated against static wrist and lapel grabs. In a real fight, a grappler is more likely to be using collar ties, russian ties, front headlocks, arm drags, underhooks, overhooks, body locks, double legs, and single legs. It's going to be a lot harder to apply finger locks against any of those controls. (Especially when the opponent is using those controls to move you around and disrupt your structure.) The one common real life scenario where you might have to deal with a lapel grab is one where an untrained attacker grabs your shirt with one hand and tries to pummel you with the other. In that case, dealing with the punches takes precedence over trying to isolate a finger.
If you are a skilled grappler, it's worth exploring these damaging grip breaks at least a little, even if they are disallowed in your particular sport competition. Partly that's so you can learn to keep yourself safe from them. Partly it's so you have them available as a little extra back up tool. More often than not, you won't actually pull the technique off against anyone good, but the threat of inflicting damage can force your opponent to adjust their position. I've only been caught with a standing wristlock once in decades of sparring, but I've been forced to bail on a grip I wanted multiple times because of the threat of a wrist lock.


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## Hanzou (Oct 4, 2021)

Jusroc said:


> Just to clarify what i mean by my post.
> 
> I personally believe there isn't good or bad styles morally, the techniques are techniques.
> It is purely down to the individual as to whether an individual will use their skills learnt at a martial art
> ...



Understood, and I agree with your assessment here. My point was that running into a Bjj black belt trying to kill you is possible, just highly unlikely.


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 4, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Honestly your best bet is to spend about 6 months at a legit BJJ school and learn the basics. Learning how to sweep, escape, closed guard, get back to your feet, hide your limbs, and yes, to grip break


For a standup striker who just wants the fundamentals of defending against a grappler, six months of BJJ will actually be less than ideal in most cases. That's because they'll likely end up spending a significant portion of the time working on aspects of grappling which aren't so relevant to their needs, such as passing guard, submissions, and sport oriented techniques. Wrestling might be a little better, but it's hard to find dedicated pure wrestling classes for adults outside of school. MMA is probably the best of the commonly available options which would cover the most relevant material in a short time frame.

If I was teaching private lessons for a stand-up fighter who just wanted a decent foundation for fighting a grappler, I would cover the following:
distance management and angled footwork
maintaining a solid stance
clinch fighting, including pummeling, grip fighting, frames, breaking free, and striking from within the clinch
sprawling
ukemi
basic punch protection and escape from the bottom of common positions such as mount, side mount, headlock, kesa gatame, closed guard against a grounded opponent, basic open guard with feet on hips against a standing opponent
technical standup and how to do  it safely when someone is trying to hit you or keep you down.

In 6 months I think most people with a good background in a standup art could develop a solid anti-grappling component to their skill set based on the above. Obviously they'd need more to compete in high-level MMA or fight an high-level grappler, but it should be enough for most self-defense purposes.


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## Hanzou (Oct 4, 2021)

Tony Dismukes said:


> For a standup striker who just wants the fundamentals of defending against a grappler, six months of BJJ will actually be less than ideal in most cases. That's because they'll likely end up spending a significant portion of the time working on aspects of grappling which aren't so relevant to their needs, such as passing guard, submissions, and sport oriented techniques. Wrestling might be a little better, but it's hard to find dedicated pure wrestling classes for adults outside of school. MMA is probably the best of the commonly available options which would cover the most relevant material in a short time frame.
> 
> If I was teaching private lessons for a stand-up fighter who just wanted a decent foundation for fighting a grappler, I would cover the following:
> distance management and angled footwork
> ...



Perhaps I'm a bit skewed on what the first 6 months of BJJ looks like due to my background in Relson Gracie JJ, but what you're describing is pretty much what's covered in their fundamentals curriculum.


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 4, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Perhaps I'm a bit skewed on what the first 6 months of BJJ looks like due to my background in Relson Gracie JJ, but what you're describing is pretty much what's covered in their fundamentals curriculum.


I'd consider that a very good thing. Unfortunately in my experience it's far from typical. Many schools don't even have dedicated beginner classes and so new students are tossed into whatever material the instructor is covering that week. Even those which do have beginner classes will spend some of that time on guard passes and submissions, while doing minimal standup work.


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## Jusroc (Oct 4, 2021)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I'm quoting this bit of your initial post in order to clarify some confusion caused by your post title.
> 
> In both this and an earlier thread of yours you use the word "lethal" to mean something different from the common definition of the word. Normally "lethal" means "sufficient to cause death". In this thread and the other one, you are using it to mean "capable of causing injury", which is a different matter. Some of the comment in this thread and the other one are from people who think you are using the dictionary definition.
> 
> ...


Hey Tony
Thanks for answering and asking the questions you have.
Apologies, with regards to the word I have used.

Please regard the word "lethal" in this case, as meaning "to cause significant injury / damage"
and to differentiate these types of grip breaks from the run of the normal allowed in competition grip breaks (in BJJ / Judo etc.).

I started the post to see what people's experiences were, if people (especially those who follow a self defence martial art ethos) practised types of grip breaks which could disarm someone who is skilled in BJJ / Judo.

Now, I don't believe there are no techniques that work.

I just wanted to see what people knew. Pick people's brains.

I have righteous reasons for asking, and if you knew my personal circumstances, you would be shocked at what certain people who train both BJJ and Judo have gotten away with (the people I speak of aren't famous, aren't known players, but people who do BJJ / Judo).

I think it is for the best that i go into too much details at this point in time. To say that my circumstances are complex, is an understatement.

Just for the record, I am not a hater with regards to BJJ or Judo, quiet the opposite, and some of the practitioners are friends of mine. I still train a bit, and continue to train in one way or another.
Perhaps not for competition.

it is the knowledge of how criminal some of these people are, while also knowing that they are training,
that makes me think that it would be a good idea to develop a what if strategy.

I also ask from a self defence perspective, as from a self defence perspective, it is good to have an solution for every problem that you may come up against.

Years ago, I remember buying a Jeet Kune Do defences against BJJ book
which was on the market years ago, but i lent it to a buddy from kenpo who didn't return it.

Think the guy was from the Larry Hartsell Lineage


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## Hanzou (Oct 4, 2021)

Jusroc said:


> Years ago, I remember buying a Jeet Kune Do defences against BJJ book
> which was on the market years ago, but i lent it to a buddy from kenpo who didn't return it.



Trust me, he did you a favor.


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## Jusroc (Oct 4, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Trust me, he did you a favor.


I really don't know. Don't get me wrong, the Gracie Jiu Jutsu system is formidable, and I am not knocking it at all.

I think that in many ways the Gracie Family have created a style of martial art that was perhaps more inline with what Prof Jigoro Kano originally set out to create before Prof Kano realised his arts potential as an international sport.

I think that Gracie Jiu Jitsu is more attractive to a greater number of the public in our modern time because it is more applicable to self defence than competition Judo is, at least as Judo is taught.

I am not a Jeet Kune Do expert, but have read my fair share to understand the differences between MMA and self defence, and think that the areas that Jeet Kune Do stylists shine can often be the areas that are illegal in MMA, Judo and BJJ, in the same way that people who subscribe to modern versions of ninjutsu would likely fare better outside of the MMA ring than inside it.

I vaguely remember the book, and also have a fair amount of history applying locks/chokes including traditional locks that aren't allowed in BJJ, such as those found in aikido that a lot of people rule out as ineffective rubbish.

However, I think that if someone skilled at the aikido techniques who also was experienced in BJJ and Judo were to apply some of the aikido techniques with force and speed, they would, in much the same way that the locking techniques that are legal, if applied with too much force while not taking notice of your partners "tap out" responses, could do as much damage as many of the locks that are associated with Judo and BJJ.

Now, don't get me wrong, I am not suggesting that people train like this.
But I am just suggesting that some of the techniques that have been ruled out as rubbish due to the way other people train, or that are too dangerous to train with in rolling / randori due to how hard some of these techniques are to apply with control without damaging ones partner, i am suggesting that some of these banned techniques would work if used with excessive force.

I mean, even the Wally Jay finger locks, if applied swiftly, with great force, while your partner is un-expecting,
would likely do serious damage to one or more fingers and wouldn't take that much skill.

If they were applied with quick precise force, rather than in the way that Professor Wally Jay demonstrates the technique, in a way to make them appear much like many of the aikido techniques that result in the passive training partner having to throw themselves in order to escape from having their joints popped.

Personally, if i were to practice the self defence side of Gracie Jiu Jitsu (or any other quality self defence system), i would include such damaging grip breaking techniques as part of the game.

Sure, its not as nurturing in philosophy with regards to the destructive nature of such techniques,
however, i think that in some rare circumstances you need a way to cause damage quick, as you may not have the luxury to roll for excessive amounts of time on the floor before you wear out your physically bigger attacker before you tire him out so you can then tap him out...


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## frank raud (Oct 4, 2021)

“Punch a black belt in the face, he becomes a brown belt. Punch him again, purple...”​— Carlson Gracie


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## Buka (Oct 4, 2021)

frank raud said:


> “Punch a black belt in the face, he becomes a brown belt. Punch him again, purple...”​— Carlson Gracie


Yeah, but if you punch him a third time....you just might piss him off.


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## Hanzou (Oct 4, 2021)

Jusroc said:


> I really don't know. Don't get me wrong, the Gracie Jiu Jutsu system is formidable, and I am not knocking it at all.
> 
> I think that in many ways the Gracie Family have created a style of martial art that was perhaps more inline with what Prof Jigoro Kano originally set out to create before Prof Kano realised his arts potential as an international sport.
> 
> I think that Gracie Jiu Jitsu is more attractive to a greater number of the public in our modern time because it is more applicable to self defence than competition Judo is, at least as Judo is taught.



No argument there. Judo does a pretty good job of shooting itself in the proverbial foot.



Jusroc said:


> I am not a Jeet Kune Do expert, but have read my fair share to understand the differences between MMA and self defence, and think that the areas that Jeet Kune Do stylists shine can often be the areas that are illegal in MMA, Judo and BJJ, in the same way that people who subscribe to modern versions of ninjutsu would likely fare better outside of the MMA ring than inside it.



Don't believe the hype. There's an arena where effectiveness can be tested, and the styles that don't show up, don't show up because they can't measure up, not because they're "too deadly" for the venue.



Jusroc said:


> I vaguely remember the book, and also have a fair amount of history applying locks/chokes including traditional locks that aren't allowed in BJJ, such as those found in aikido that a lot of people rule out as ineffective rubbish.



Yeah, no. I've been around BJJ a long time, and there's really no such thing as a lock/chokes that isn't allowed. There are moves that are frowned upon, like putting your knee on someone's neck and the Scorpion Lock, and there's restrictions on what you can use in competition, but there's no lock/choke that is BANNED from BJJ.

Again, don't believe the hype.



Jusroc said:


> However, I think that if someone skilled at the aikido techniques who also was experienced in BJJ and Judo were to apply some of the aikido techniques with force and speed, they would, in much the same way that the locking techniques that are legal, if applied with too much force while not taking notice of your partners "tap out" responses, could do as much damage as many of the locks that are associated with Judo and BJJ.



Check out Roy Dean; An Aikido master and a BJJ black belt who actively combines Aikido and BJJ together, and has a chain of schools that promote that concept.

No offense to Dean, but it didn't exactly light the world afire.



Jusroc said:


> Now, don't get me wrong, I am not suggesting that people train like this.
> But I am just suggesting that some of the techniques that have been ruled out as rubbish due to the way other people train, or that are too dangerous to train with in rolling / randori due to how hard some of these techniques are to apply with control without damaging ones partner, i am suggesting that some of these banned techniques would work if used with excessive force.
> 
> I mean, even the Wally Jay finger locks, if applied swiftly, with great force, while your partner is un-expecting,
> ...



Again, you have to understand that locks and chokes tend to be applied in a dominant position. Do you know what that means? That means I am in a highly advantageous position over you, and in prime position to attack and submit you. However, I need to stress that if someone has you in a dominant position, they don't HAVE to choke or lock you. they're also in prime position to ground and pound. And if you think that's some advanced technique that no one knows, think again. I see untrained aholes do it all the time. With that said, one of the LAST things you should be doing is attempting to attack me with a finger grab. Your primary goal would be to play defense and attempt an escape or sweep. If we're actually fighting (which is what you're implying here), you attempting to twist my fingers (considering you could even grab my hands) would be met with me punching/elbowing you in the face over and over again until I *decide* to choke you unconscious, which would be a merciful end to the encounter.

If I'm some twisted sociopath, I may _never_ stop punching/elbowing you in the face. Which is why I'm telling you to get the idea of grabby fingers out of your head. Yeah, if we're in a gym messing around, I'll put you in a hold and you can try to go for my fingers, but if you're dealing with a sociopath on the street who somehow got a BJJ black belt you better forget that and start shrimping your *** off, because he isn't going to go for chokes or locks, he's going to bash your face in.


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## dunc (Oct 5, 2021)

I agree with a lot of what @Tony Dismukes & @Hanzou have said here

In my experience you can:
- Remove grips with certain strikes. These are mechanically similar to the basic BJJ/Judo grip breaks, but make your aggressor much less enthusiastic to regrip. They also have the benefit of creating larger openings for follow ups, but at the cost of wrist control
- Use wrist locks to break grips (even at a high level) or counter attack in their own right, BUT they are very low percentage counter attacks unless coupled with strikes
- Attack the fingers and thumb. BUT there are very specific techniques to set these up (including specific grips, striking etc) and I don't see these being taught or understood more broadly

Generally speaking folks tend to teach the wrist and finger locks without understanding their set ups which tends to result in people trying them out, failing to pull it off in sparring and writing them off as low percentage. Which does them a disservice in terms of self defence
One of the characteristics of small joint locks is that they can be applied very quickly which does tend to cause injuries to your training partners (there's a quote from Jigoro Kano to this effect as he explains why he removed wrist locks from Judo for example)

I'd also add that breaking someone's finger probably won't stop them, so any attacks like this have to be part of a broader technique (icing on the cake so to speak) or at a minimum a discouragement for them to continue (which is very situation dependent)


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## AIKIKENJITSU (Oct 5, 2021)

Jusroc said:


> In a world populated by Jiu Jutsu / Judo / Sambo experts
> The possibility that we may be attacked by someone who knows how to grip is much more likely than say in the early 90s.
> 
> Getting attacked or in a fight, with a Jiu Jitsu expert must be one of the biggest nightmare scenario's for anyone who
> ...


I have studied and taught my version of American Kenpo karate for fifty years. Over the years I have added joint locks. The more you know, the easier to get out of a lock. I teach and study for self defense, not sport, so I add effective joint locks. If a super strong guy grabs your wrist and you can't kick because he's controlling you, then use your joint lock knowledge to get out of his power grip before you strike him.
Sifu
Puyallup, WA


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## AIKIKENJITSU (Oct 5, 2021)

Jusroc said:


> I really don't know. Don't get me wrong, the Gracie Jiu Jutsu system is formidable, and I am not knocking it at all.
> 
> I think that in many ways the Gracie Family have created a style of martial art that was perhaps more inline with what Prof Jigoro Kano originally set out to create before Prof Kano realised his arts potential as an international sport.
> 
> ...


I'm 5'2" and so jujitsu would not be the perfect art for me, that's is parts of it. I'm too small to apply a lot of the chokes, etc. but I use info that enables me to get out of locks and also to apply locks that work for me. My main art is American Kenpo which works great for me. But sometimes joint locks are the answer.
Sifu
Puyallup, Wa


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 5, 2021)

AIKIKENJITSU said:


> I'm 5'2" and so jujitsu would not be the perfect art for me, that's is parts of it. I'm too small to apply a lot of the chokes, etc


I guarantee you that being 5’2” does not make you too small to apply chokes or most other jujutsu techniques.


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## Hanzou (Oct 5, 2021)

AIKIKENJITSU said:


> I'm 5'2" and so jujitsu would not be the perfect art for me, that's is parts of it. I'm too small to apply a lot of the chokes, etc. but I use info that enables me to get out of locks and also to apply locks that work for me. My main art is American Kenpo which works great for me. But sometimes joint locks are the answer.
> Sifu
> Puyallup, Wa



You're not too small. Your game would simply be different than say a lanky person with long limbs or a large person with great power and top pressure. In fact, your smaller size would make you an excellent escape artist, and very hard to pin down. This would give you prime opportunities for back takes and/or crucifix style attacks.


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## MR. SERNA (Jun 29, 2022)

Jusroc said:


> In a world populated by Jiu Jutsu / Judo / Sambo experts
> The possibility that we may be attacked by someone who knows how to grip is much more likely than say in the early 90s.
> 
> Getting attacked or in a fight, with a Jiu Jitsu expert must be one of the biggest nightmare scenario's for anyone who
> ...


So true.

There are tools on you that can assist with grip release.

1. Your car key under the elbow inside the joint works 90%.

2.  A lighter in the same location on the elbow works 100%

3. Groin grab works 80%

4.  In a situation where your life depends on you actions, one must think outside of sport fighting with rules in mind. Rather think combat with no rules only survival. Utilize what you have and what you can use around you.

In Brazil fighting in bars is common, so the other patrons often throw the drink glasses and bottles on the ground breaking them in order to keep the brawlers from going to the ground.  

Mr. Serna


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## MR. SERNA (Jun 29, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I guarantee you that being 5’2” does not make you too small to apply chokes or most other jujutsu techniques.


Totally agree, being short is the advantage when one understands what jiu-jitsu tools are available.

Mr. Serna


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 30, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I guarantee you that being 5’2” does not make you too small to apply chokes or most other jujutsu techniques.


It definitely doesn't make a difference for most Submissions/finishers. But when it comes to positional availability, I struggle against people with less BJJ experience than I. It's a lot tougher for me to hold mount or side control, and I've learned to try to get things from guard and/or while they transition between situations, as I have a much tougher time holding positions than those larger/stronger than me.

Admittedly, I'm also much less experienced so that might be part of it, but given it'll take a year or two of dedicated jujitsu training to pass my experience (I've been doing it on/off with limited dedication for a few years), it's something to keep in mind when discussing with people that are smaller than average.

Someone I train with learned to focus on leg locks. It turns out most people don't focus on them, so she's able to get leg locks regardless of her opponent's height/weight (at least up to a certain experience level).


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## drop bear (Jun 30, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> It definitely doesn't make a difference for most Submissions/finishers. But when it comes to positional availability, I struggle against people with less BJJ experience than I. It's a lot tougher for me to hold mount or side control, and I've learned to try to get things from guard and/or while they transition between situations, as I have a much tougher time holding positions than those larger/stronger than me.
> 
> Admittedly, I'm also much less experienced so that might be part of it, but given it'll take a year or two of dedicated jujitsu training to pass my experience (I've been doing it on/off with limited dedication for a few years), it's something to keep in mind when discussing with people that are smaller than average.
> 
> Someone I train with learned to focus on leg locks. It turns out most people don't focus on them, so she's able to get leg locks regardless of her opponent's height/weight (at least up to a certain experience level).



You don't hold people down. You move so that you are always on top of them.

And for mount. Just starfish.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 30, 2022)

drop bear said:


> You don't hold people down. You move so that you are always on top of them.
> 
> And for mount. Just starfish.


Being on top of people at least 100 pounds heavier than me doesn't seem useful. Even if I starfish, they eventually get out. I've gotten recent at starfishing-->holding high mount-->starfishing, which keeps them from escaping mount, but doesn't really give me all that many opportunities.


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## drop bear (Jun 30, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Being on top of people at least 100 pounds heavier than me doesn't seem useful. Even if I starfish, they eventually get out. I've gotten recent at starfishing-->holding high mount-->starfishing, which keeps them from escaping mount, but doesn't really give me all that many opportunities.



Just long enough to hold their thrash. Then pop up and attack. Then starfish again when they thrash again.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 30, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Being on top of people at least 100 pounds heavier than me doesn't seem useful. Even if I starfish, they eventually get out. I've gotten recent at starfishing-->holding high mount-->starfishing, which keeps them from escaping mount, but doesn't really give me all that many opportunities.


*I've gotten good recently. Not sure what happened there


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## dunc (Jun 30, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Being on top of people at least 100 pounds heavier than me doesn't seem useful. Even if I starfish, they eventually get out. I've gotten recent at starfishing-->holding high mount-->starfishing, which keeps them from escaping mount, but doesn't really give me all that many opportunities.


If you can get high mount then with your feet gripping his hips then it doesn't take much to stop them flaring their elbows (which is what they need to move up and re-establish their elbow guard)
Then lean back a little to apply pressure - think of a rodeo rider as they bridge etc
I think a lot of people don't use their feet to attach to their opponent in mount which makes them quite unstable

Getting to high mount with elbow control whilst he's bridging, tucking his elbows etc - that's a different fight


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 30, 2022)

dunc said:


> If you can get high mount then with your feet gripping his hips then it doesn't take much to stop them flaring their elbows (which is what they need to move up and re-establish their elbow guard)
> Then lean back a little to apply pressure - think of a rodeo rider as they bridge etc
> I think a lot of people don't use their feet to attach to their opponent in mount which makes them quite unstable
> 
> Getting to high mount with elbow control whilst he's bridging, tucking his elbows etc - that's a different fight


Regarding the feet: I don't think I tend to do that-I was probably taught to at some point but forgot. I do try to lean back, but that only helps so much.

When you say feet gripping the hips, do you mean that I dig my heels into the hips from the top, or dig the top of my feet underneath them and my heels on the side of their hips, or keep my toes pointed towards their legs and straddle that way? The third is what I think I naturally do (could be wrong on that).


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## dunc (Jun 30, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Regarding the feet: I don't think I tend to do that-I was probably taught to at some point but forgot. I do try to lean back, but that only helps so much.
> 
> When you say feet gripping the hips, do you mean that I dig my heels into the hips from the top, or dig the top of my feet underneath them and my heels on the side of their hips, or keep my toes pointed towards their legs and straddle that way? The third is what I think I naturally do (could be wrong on that).


Hi
I hold the top of the hip bone with the soles of my feet
So it attaches you to them and gives purchase to keep the forwards pressure with your knees
Hope that makes sense
D


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