# Rmur mill about Poomsae



## terryl965 (Dec 7, 2008)

I hear though some rumor mills that the more powerful GM are getting together to bring out a new set of Poomsae's that is more realistic for today SD type of scenirio? Has anybody else heard anything they would like to share?


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## Laurentkd (Dec 8, 2008)

I haven't heard anything about this, but that would be very exciting.
What ever happened to those new definitely-not-realistic poomsae?


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## exile (Dec 8, 2008)

Laurentkd said:


> I haven't heard anything about this, but that would be very exciting.
> What ever happened to those new definitely-not-realistic poomsae?



Good question, Lauren.

The idea of a new set of poomse that really stresses the CQ content of TKD's combat repertoire is very exciting indeedalmost in the 'too good to be true' zone. I hope we hear more about this very, very soon...


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## YoungMan (Dec 8, 2008)

Exile, just out of curiosity, how many years have you practiced taekwondo and what level have you reached?


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## dancingalone (Dec 9, 2008)

Well, I don't see the point in designing yet another set of forms, especially if it's done by a committee of people who haven't exactly made SD their #1 focus in the last 20 years or so.  We've already seen what happens when hyung are designed by committee and IMO the results are uninspired as are the official applications taught within them.

I would rather see hoshinsul given emphasis if one is talking about making TKD more self-defense oriented.


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## dancingalone (Dec 9, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> Exile, just out of curiosity, how many years have you practiced taekwondo and what level have you reached?



Exile can speak for himself, but I question the relevance of your query.  We've all participated enough on MT to know that some of the most profound posts come from those relatively inexperienced in MA, if not life.  And some of the most pompous and factually incorrect came from those highly ranked in their art.

One of my training partners is ranked lower than I am, but I have no problems greeting him first or showing him respect.  He's had a successful business career and offers his considerable knowledge and experience freely.  It's amazing how much life experience carries forward into the dojo.


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## miguksaram (Dec 9, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> I hear though some rumor mills that the more powerful GM are getting together to bring out a new set of Poomsae's that is more realistic for today SD type of scenirio? Has anybody else heard anything they would like to share?


 
Did you or anyone else hear this at the seminar last weeked in Dallas?  I'll try to find out what I can on this.


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## miguksaram (Dec 9, 2008)

dancingalone said:


> Exile can speak for himself, but I question the relevance of your query. We've all participated enough on MT to know that some of the most profound posts come from those relatively inexperienced in MA, if not life. And some of the most pompous and factually incorrect came from those highly ranked in their art.


 
Though I can agree with you on this, sometimes knowing a person's background helps us better understand their point of view on their posts.  Example:  Exile may have only done 5 years of TKD but then switched to BJJ for the past 30 years and from that sees major flaws in TKD's SD curriculum. (Again...just an example).  I don't think YM had any ill will in his question...at least I hope not.


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## dancingalone (Dec 9, 2008)

miguksaram said:


> Though I can agree with you on this, sometimes knowing a person's background helps us better understand their point of view on their posts.  Example:  Exile may have only done 5 years of TKD but then switched to BJJ for the past 30 years and from that sees major flaws in TKD's SD curriculum. (Again...just an example).  I don't think YM had any ill will in his question...at least I hope not.



Years of experience and rank means nothing without further qualification.  A common MA saying goes something like this, "Did you practice for 30 years or did you repeat 1 year 30 times?"

At this point I don't believe the ranking system means anything to me if a person in question is not connected to me in some way.  I've seen too many 7th dan posers to automatically give rank any further thought at all.  When my teacher chooses to promote me, I will appreciate it and feel honored, but only because my teacher thought enough of me to award it.  I certainly would not expect someone outside my MA line to think anything of it since for all they know my black belt could have been earned playing tiddlywinks.


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## miguksaram (Dec 9, 2008)

dancingalone said:


> Years of experience and rank means nothing without further qualification. A common MA saying goes something like this, "Did you practice for 30 years or did you repeat 1 year 30 times?"
> 
> At this point I don't believe the ranking system means anything to me if a person in question is not connected to me in some way.


 
I'm not talking about rank...I'm talking about background and experience.  I could care less if he is a 10th dan or a 10th kyu.  However, it is good to know what perspective a person is speaking from.


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## dancingalone (Dec 9, 2008)

miguksaram said:


> I'm not talking about rank...I'm talking about background and experience.  I could care less if he is a 10th dan or a 10th kyu.  However, it is good to know what perspective a person is speaking from.



YM clearly asked what level Exile was...he likely meant rank.


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## YoungMan (Dec 9, 2008)

Yes it does matter. You can have all the opinions in the world regarding whether Taekwondo is headed in the right direction. But if you are a 1st Dan with 5-6 years experience, I hardly think that qualifies you to speak as an authority on the Art. There are lots of people with just a high school diploma who think they know what's wrong with the world and how to solve it. Those guys are a dime a dozen. And even if he had 30 years experience in BJJ, that's irrelevant to the state of Taekwondo and the creation of new forms. Great for him but irrelevant.
Sorry about steering the thread off course by the way.


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## IcemanSK (Dec 9, 2008)

Laurentkd said:


> I haven't heard anything about this, but that would be very exciting.
> What ever happened to those new definitely-not-realistic poomsae?


 

I wonder the same thing about those forms. There was no mention of them at the Hanmadang this year. One would think that they would if they were the KKW's latest thing. I have a feeling they will be buried & forgotten. Beyond the American XMA'ers & Korean college TKD students, I don't see this catching on with most Kukki-TKD folks.


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## dancingalone (Dec 9, 2008)

> But if you are a 1st Dan with 5-6 years experience, I hardly think that qualifies you to speak as an authority on the Art.



And yet we've entrusted the White House to a 1 term senator with decidedly less experience than his opponent.  Time will tell on Obama, but I disagree strongly with your premise.  One does not need to be an expert on the _practice_ of taekwondo to discuss or formulate policy on the future of taekwondo.  In fact, I understand some of the past administrative leaders within the WTF were not strong martial artists in their own right, but they certainly shouldered the load for running the organization?


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## exile (Dec 9, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> Exile, just out of curiosity, how many years have you practiced taekwondo and what level have you reached?



Six years. Black belt. And this is relevant to my comment&#8212;about how exciting new SD-oriented hyungs would be&#8212;in exactly _what_ way??

(For the record, YM seems to be troubled that I might make the comment



> The idea of a new set of poomse that really stresses the CQ content of TKD's combat repertoire is very exciting indeed&#8212;almost in the 'too good to be true' zone. I hope we hear more about this very, very soon...



after only the amount of experience and rank that I have. He seems to think that my expression of excitement at this prospect involves a claim to be speaking as an authority on the art. As in, my excitement at the prospect of a small, cheap, clean fusion reactor means that I'm speaking as authority on nuclear engineering. Or as in, my excitement at the prospect of organ regeneration makes means I'm speaking as authority on genetic biosynthesis. Or my excitement about the next solar eclipse means I'm speaking as an authority on astronomy. Or... well, you get the idea! :lol

I'd be grateful if YM, or anyone else, could clarify the thinking behind his query to me in connection with this statement...  Meanwhile, a general suggestion: if people object to something they read, they'd do best to present a cogent argument against it. They shouldn't try to pull rank. As _many_ people have learned to their chagrin, MTers tend to ridicule them when they do that. Just a suggestion to anyone whom the shoe fits.


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## Flying Crane (Dec 9, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> Yes it does matter. You can have all the opinions in the world regarding whether Taekwondo is headed in the right direction. But if you are a 1st Dan with 5-6 years experience, I hardly think that qualifies you to speak as an authority on the Art. There are lots of people with just a high school diploma who think they know what's wrong with the world and how to solve it. Those guys are a dime a dozen. And even if he had 30 years experience in BJJ, that's irrelevant to the state of Taekwondo and the creation of new forms. Great for him but irrelevant.
> Sorry about steering the thread off course by the way.


 




exile said:


> Six years. Black belt. And this is relevant to my commentabout how exciting new SD-oriented hyungs would bein exactly _what_ way??


 
Sorry to stick my nose in where it may not belong, but I couldn't help noticing this exchange.

Martialtalk is a discussion forum, topically focused on Martial Arts of all types.  People from all backgrounds and skill sets and levels are welcome here to join in the discussion, as long as they join in a respectful manner.  

Suggesting that someone's opinion is out of place or even worthless because they haven't put in enough years or obtained a high enough rank is silly, plain and simple.  Bob Hubbard may as well shut down Martialtalk altogether then, because it's chock-ful of low ranking individuals with just a few short years or less of training, all engaging in discussions here.  I suppose they all don't deserve to have, much less express, their opinions on the topics here.  

If discussions of this nature were reserved for those of a 5th dan or higher or equivalent ranking or some other such silliness, the discussions would be pretty dead indeed.

Exile has shown himself to be one of the more intelligent and dilligent contributors here on Martialtalk, over and over.  In spite of the few years and (relatively) low rank he has achieved, I have a tremendous amount of respect for what he has to say here, particularly when it comes to his art of Tae Kwon Do, which I myself know little about and have not studied.  

I've seen the results of the research and questioning that Exile does on TKD, and it is impressive.  He is a true student of the art, searching for deeper meaning and striving to bring not only himself, but the art itself up to the highest quality possible.

Exile's opinion here on Martialtalk carries tremendous relevance.




> after only the amount of experience and rank that I have. I'd be grateful if YM, or anyone else, could clarify the thinking behind his query to me in connection with this statement...  )


 
I agree, perhaps Youngman can shed some more light on his query.  If he just wanted some perspective on Exile's thoughts, that is one thing.  But it may be that he owes Exile an apology.

These are my thoughts as a lowly shodan and member of Martialtalk.


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## miguksaram (Dec 9, 2008)

dancingalone said:


> YM clearly asked what level Exile was...he likely meant rank.



Sorry...I was just referring to my statement in my last post.  I actually agree with you on this whole thing. My only thing I have against Exile is he uses too many fancy words.  Dictionary.com is going to start charging me soon. ha.ha..ha..


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## terryl965 (Dec 10, 2008)

Exile may have only six years of official training but he is a student of the Art with research that backs up alot of what he says, my only problem is his verbal communication for us hicks out here in the wi fi land. Go Exile.


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## YoungMan (Dec 10, 2008)

dancingalone said:


> And yet we've entrusted the White House to a 1 term senator with decidedly less experience than his opponent. Time will tell on Obama, but I disagree strongly with your premise. One does not need to be an expert on the _practice_ of taekwondo to discuss or formulate policy on the future of taekwondo. In fact, I understand some of the past administrative leaders within the WTF were not strong martial artists in their own right, but they certainly shouldered the load for running the organization?


 
And yet, one of the primary problems that the Kukkiwon had to deal with for years was the fact that the President did not practice Taekwondo. In other words, very high ranking men who did practice had to submit their students' applications for Dan and advanced Dan to be signed by a man who did not practice.
I respect Exile's right to an opinion. However, the fact that he feels qualified to comment on the state of Taekwondo and where it should be heading when he has practiced for six years and holds merely a 1st Dan makes it very hard for me (and I'm sure others) to take his opinions seriously. The fact that he happens to be a moderator for MT is totally irrelevant btw.
I'm glad he has shown such an interest in MA history and culture, as have I. The fact remains, however, that he is a 1st Dan with six years experience. In any legitmate Taekwondo organization that I can think of, he wouldn't even be allowed to judge.


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## miguksaram (Dec 10, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> I respect Exile's right to an opinion. However, the fact that he feels qualified to comment on the state of Taekwondo and where it should be heading when he has practiced for six years and holds merely a 1st Dan makes it very hard for me (and I'm sure others) to take his opinions seriously.


 
Well I'm only a KKW certified 2nd dan.  So my opinoins don't hold any water either?  What rank does one have to be for their opinoin to be qualified?


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## bluekey88 (Dec 10, 2008)

I guess that makes my opinions irrelevant too.  Quite frankly, it doesn't matter.  Exile is what I like to think of as a Scholar-Practitioner.  He studies and researches but also does.  These are the people whose opinions I tend to trust,,,,bescasue not only do they know the "ivory tower" aspects of their art but come down in the trenches and get dirty putting theory to the test.  People like this tend to be more flexible and willing to change their thinking in light of evidence.  it is in this model that I think the future of TKD will be saved...should the upper ehelons go that way.  

Personally, if I discounted the opinion of everyone who had less expereince than me...i'd be a terrible husband, father, therapist, friend and martila artist.  I can list numerous times when wisdom came forth "from the mouth of babes"...wisdom I totally could not see because I was too busy being "experienced" instead of looking at what was right in front of my nose.

Peace,
Erik


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## dancingalone (Dec 10, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> I respect Exile's right to an opinion. However, the fact that he feels qualified to comment on the state of Taekwondo and where it should be heading when he has practiced for six years and holds merely a 1st Dan makes it very hard for me (and I'm sure others) to take his opinions seriously.



Well, you have yet to explain why someone who may not be an expert in the practice of TKD cannot have a valid opinion about its operations or governance.  I am not an expert chef, but my palate can tell when I am being served something delicious or not.

That aside, if you believe high rank or long years in "practice" necessarily equate to expertise, I disagree there with you also.  I might have more respect for your position if the dan system wasn't so subjective and open to abuse.  We've all seen kodanja who should perhaps swap their black belts for colored ones.


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## exile (Dec 10, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> And yet, one of the primary problems that the Kukkiwon had to deal with for years was the fact that the President did not practice Taekwondo. In other words, very high ranking men who did practice had to submit their students' applications for Dan and advanced Dan to be signed by a man who did not practice.
> I respect Exile's right to an opinion. However, the fact that he feels qualified to *comment on the state of Taekwondo and where it should be heading* when he has practiced for six years and holds merely a 1st Dan makes it very hard for me (and I'm sure others) to take his opinions seriously. The fact that he happens to be a moderator for MT is totally irrelevant btw.
> I'm glad he has shown such an interest in MA history and culture, as have I. The fact remains, however, that he is a 1st Dan with six years experience. In any legitmate Taekwondo organization that I can think of, he wouldn't even be allowed to judge.



I'm clearly not going to get an answer to my direct questions from YoungMan; my impression from his text here is that he hasn't actually bothered to read my reply to him. But can anyone tell me how my comment that I was excited about the prospect of some new, SD-oriented hyungs constitutes an _opinion_? Or a judgment about the state of TKD and where it's heading? Or amounts to anything other than an expression of excitement about the prospect of... etc. etc.

BTW, in the academic world, someone who's been 'training' for six years would correspond to a second year graduate student. And if a second year graduate student stood up at a conference and challenged the analysis someone with decades of teaching and research experience had presented&#8212;doesn't matter what the field, btw&#8212;and the 'senior member of the profession' had, instead of defending his or her position, replied, 'Tell me, just what are your qualifications in [field of your choice]&#8212;what's your highest degree? Where have you published', the reaction from me, or anyone else who's a senior member of the field in question, would be, 'Migod, what a pompous jerk!! Respond to the kid's challenge by showing where s/he's wrong, or admit s/he's got a point.' But if all that the grad student did was comment, in a group discussion at a bar over a beer, that s/he was excited by the appearance of a new textbook focusing on certain recent discoveries or methods of analysis in [field of your choice], and this very senior professor of [field of your choice] challenged the student about their experience on _that_, my reaction (and that any other senior member of the field) would be, 'this guy's had too much to drink already, someone get him home'. Or, 'this guy's meds need to be adjusted'. Or, 'this guy needs to see a neurologist _now_'.

 Fortunately, this sort of thing almost never happens in academe, precisely because no one wants to look that ridiculous. I point these facts out merely for comparison purposes, from a realm I've been professionally involved in for the past forty-plus years. As almost a complete beginner in the MAs, I really don't know how things work _here_... 

PS: Terry, I feel obliged to apologize for the thread drift my innocent expresson of pleasure at the news in your OP seems to have triggered, and I want to thank all you good folks who've indicated your own views about how much rank one needs to have in order to voice an opinion&#8212;I appreciate it, and it speaks well for the kind of rationality that by and large governs conversation on this board. I'll just say, again,  I'm eager to see if this rumor proves true, and if so, what the new forms will look like. Why _wouldn't_ someone actively involved in TKD feel that way? :idunno:


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## StuartA (Dec 10, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> However, the fact that he feels qualified to comment on the state of Taekwondo and where it should be heading when he has practiced for six years and holds merely a 1st Dan makes it very hard for me (and I'm sure others) to take his opinions seriously.


Not me.. I find Exiles posts well thought out, well researched, logical and not indoctrinated in any of the _"its like this cos Master So & so says so so it must be so"_ stuff!

I hardly watch or play football (soccer to you US guys) but I have seen it for years and can comment that the players get paid to much and too much pansying around is allowed on the pitch! Similarly I can comment on WTF TKD as even though I dont train in it I know a fair bit about it!

TBH, I think 6 years is enough to know how something works, especially someone with Exiles inquisitive mind... whats more, he wasnt even making an "_official_" type statement, just exclaiming "_that would be cool_" so I dont see your problem or even why the question came up!

Stuart


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## StuartA (Dec 10, 2008)

exile said:


> I'm clearly not going to get an answer to my direct questions from YoungMan; my impression from his text here is that he hasn't actually bothered to read my reply to him. But can anyone tell me how my comment that I was excited about the prospect of some new, SD-oriented hyungs constitutes an _opinion_? Or a judgment about the state of TKD and where it's heading? Or amounts to anything other than an expression of excitement about the prospect of... etc. etc.


Its an opinion.. your opinion and not one based on ignorance anyway. I see no rerason for you to explain yourself further. Your post here already show you know what you are talking about, even if you wanted to express further views on the subject!

Stuart


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## bluekey88 (Dec 10, 2008)

To steer things back on topic.  I have not heard anything about new SD forms.  That would be neat...but really, a simple focus on the SD applications within the Taeguk poomse is all that's needed.  Hell, if KKW just put up some video or pictures with better techs than they have in the past would go a LONG way in my eyes towards giving some credibility back to the SD side of KKW TKD.

Peace,
Erik


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## BrandonLucas (Dec 10, 2008)

Would it be possible to see new forms that are universal for all orgs?

I think new SD oriented forms would be awesome, but the TKD I practice is ITF based, so I doubt we would be getting any cool new forms to learn....

I just think it would be cool to have the same forms for all aspects of TKD...not necessarily to unite WTF and ITF and KKW and the other orgs or anything, but just to have a universal form system...something that other MAists from other arts don't have to guess that it's a TKD form.


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## exile (Dec 10, 2008)

BrandonLucas said:


> Would it be possible to see new forms that are universal for all orgs?
> 
> I think new SD oriented forms would be awesome, but the TKD I practice is ITF based, so I doubt we would be getting any cool new forms to learn....
> 
> I just think it would be cool to have the same forms for all aspects of TKD...not necessarily to unite WTF and ITF and KKW and the other orgs or anything, but just to have a universal form system...something that other MAists from other arts don't have to guess that it's a TKD form.



That's a very interesting idea, Brandon... I don't think I've ever heard anyone suggest that before: a kind of universal canon of forms. Does anyone know of a TMA where something like that exists? 

My impression is that there are a large number of kata in various styles of karate which are freely shared amongst the different styles. Some schools and some instructors don't teach this one or that one, but I don't know if it's ever true that there are certain forms that _everyone_, say, in Wado-ryu learns and certain forms that _no one_ in Wado-ryu learns... seems to be more the case that there's a big 'pool' of forms and some styles tend to specialize more in one part of that pool and other styles emphasize others....


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## miguksaram (Dec 10, 2008)

BrandonLucas said:


> Would it be possible to see new forms that are universal for all orgs?
> 
> I think new SD oriented forms would be awesome, but the TKD I practice is ITF based, so I doubt we would be getting any cool new forms to learn....
> 
> I just think it would be cool to have the same forms for all aspects of TKD...not necessarily to unite WTF and ITF and KKW and the other orgs or anything, but just to have a universal form system...something that other MAists from other arts don't have to guess that it's a TKD form.


 
To many egos would prohibit such a thing unfortunately.  My question is why do we need the SD forms or why does KKW need to explain the SD in its present forms?  Shouldn't an instructor be able to interpet the forms on their own?  If SD forms are really neccessary, then why not borrow from KSW forms?


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## Ninjamom (Dec 10, 2008)

On a related note - 

At our school, one of the requirements for 4th Dan (Master rank) is the development and demonstration of your own original form (as well as several original takedowns and self-defense moves, demonstrated on 1 or 2 attackers).  While I'm not sure this is a universal requirement for Kukkiwon rank advancement, I assume that other schools have similar requirements at some point.

1. Does your school have a requirement for TBD Dan level candidates to devise their own poomsae?
2. Have you done so?
3. Do yours/your students' include robust self defense applications?


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## BrandonLucas (Dec 10, 2008)

Ninjamom said:


> On a related note -
> 
> At our school, one of the requirements for 4th Dan (Master rank) is the development and demonstration of your own original form (as well as several original takedowns and self-defense moves, demonstrated on 1 or 2 attackers). While I'm not sure this is a universal requirement for Kukkiwon rank advancement, I assume that other schools have similar requirements at some point.
> 
> ...


 
Our dojang doesn't have this as a requirement, but I really like the idea.


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## bluekey88 (Dec 10, 2008)

At my school between first and second dan we have 8 intermediate tests.  Throughout these tests you are required to create increasingly longer kicking tecghniqeus (4,6 8 and 10 kicks) also you ave to create a 12 move and then a 20 move poomse.  In the gup ranks you also have to create self defens emoves to chokes, grabs and then do instant creation self defense to attacks at 1st dan, instant creation to punches goign fro 2nd dan.

There is no requirement to make creation kicking techs and creation poomse have "meaning" but I always strive for a theme and to have an idea for a reason for my moves as well.  I think it gives them more substance.

Peace,
Erik


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## exile (Dec 10, 2008)

A new book, _Creating Kata_, about individual form creation&#8212;what the rationale is, what a good form needs, and so on&#8212;has just come out; I'll try to get the information on it. It's bound to be thought-provoking, whatever conclusion one comes to; the author, Dave Nielsen, is an advanced karateka of long standing, and he has laid out his thinking in careful detail, from what I can tell, so that people can come to their own conclusions. Iain Abernethy has an introduction to the book that I _have_ read, which introduces a very interesting historical perspective on the whole question of kata creation---as usual with IA, he succeeds in demystifying, in the friendliest possible way, yet another topic around which a lot of reverential fuzz has accumulated. 

BTW, Bill Burgar, in his wonderful _Five Years, One Kata_&#8212;where he describes how, somewhere around his third or fourth dan, he dropped his standard training routine and spent five year studying one kata, Gojushiho, intensively (much as Funakoshi and Motobu did with Naihanchi), analyzing and working out the application of every movement and angle in it and pressure testing what he came up with&#8212;also advocates, _for the very advanced practitioner_, kata creation as an exercise in martial combat understanding, and maybe the severest test of a practitioner's grasp of the fundamentals of her or his art.


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## miguksaram (Dec 10, 2008)

Ninjamom said:


> On a related note -
> 
> At our school, one of the requirements for 4th Dan (Master rank) is the development and demonstration of your own original form (as well as several original takedowns and self-defense moves, demonstrated on 1 or 2 attackers). While I'm not sure this is a universal requirement for Kukkiwon rank advancement, I assume that other schools have similar requirements at some point.
> 
> ...


 
We don't have a requirement to have a creative form for our dan ranks.  However, we do require you to be able to do free form self defense.  Now for my sword class I actually do require them to do a creative sword form at the 4th kyu level.


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## bignick (Dec 10, 2008)

Just checking in, was there ever a consensus as to what happened with the supposed new competition forms that the WTF/Kukkiwon would create?  I never even saw one performed.  

Is there any resources or links on these?  

Also I know the Kukkiwon has been redoing their standards on all the dan forms.  Is there any resources on these in regards to stance changes, etc?


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## terrylamar (Dec 10, 2008)

bignick said:


> Also I know the Kukkiwon has been redoing their standards on all the dan forms. Is there any resources on these in regards to stance changes, etc?


 
The Kukkiwon produced a 6 DVD set in 2007.  It is available through many suppliers.  It cost somewhere around $129.00.  It is the same material taught at their Poomsae seminars.


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## terryl965 (Dec 10, 2008)

*PS: Terry, I feel obliged to apologize for the thread drift my innocent expresson of pleasure at the news in your OP seems to have triggered, and I want to thank all you good folks who've indicated your own views about how much rank one needs to have in order to voice an opinionI appreciate it, and it speaks well for the kind of rationality that by and large governs conversation on this board. I'll just say, again, I'm eager to see if this rumor proves true, and if so, what the new forms will look like. Why wouldn't someone actively involved in TKD feel that way*? :idunno:

Well first let me say say what you need to say, my commit is towards Youngman rigt now. I am a 4th since five years ago, I have been doing TKD since 1969, I tested so I could get KKW for my students since my GM is getting older by his request if not for that I would still be a third, so by your standerd I do not hold enough rank to be serious but yet I gave probaly 15 years more experience than you. So what does that make me? Exile is a serious student that looks at every angle and just not the one his instructor says, I would take his views alot more serious than yours simply because you are so closed minded about people opinion in the Art, for you it is this way or it is wrong. In my own opinion you are the one holding back TKD simply because you refuse to accept the past. I wish you could except views outside your own but each there own, remember one must not be her since the beginning to shed light on the past and future.


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## miguksaram (Dec 11, 2008)

exile said:


> A new book, _Creating Kata_, about individual form creation...


 
I'd be interested in getting the information on this when you get a chance.  Thank you.


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## Logan (Dec 12, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> Yes it does matter. You can have all the opinions in the world regarding whether Taekwondo is headed in the right direction. But if you are a 1st Dan with 5-6 years experience, I hardly think that qualifies you to speak as an authority on the Art. There are lots of people with just a high school diploma who think they know what's wrong with the world and how to solve it. Those guys are a dime a dozen. And even if he had 30 years experience in BJJ, that's irrelevant to the state of Taekwondo and the creation of new forms. Great for him but irrelevant.
> Sorry about steering the thread off course by the way.


 

To throw my 2c in, I have more years in tkd than Exile but given the quality of his posts since I have been reading this board, I would bow to his opinion on most matters. 

In relation to the original post, I have been...disappointed... with a lot of the official kukkiwon changes of late. If you are practicing an established martial art that has remained relatively unchanged throughout several lifetimes, then I would accept it without question. Having certain changes every few years leads me (and others) to the simple question of "why?". What is wrong that needs changing and what does the change signify?


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## BrandonLucas (Dec 12, 2008)

Logan said:


> To throw my 2c in, I have more years in tkd than Exile but given the quality of his posts since I have been reading this board, I would bow to his opinion on most matters.
> 
> In relation to the original post, I have been...disappointed... with a lot of the official kukkiwon changes of late. If you are practicing an established martial art that has remained relatively unchanged throughout several lifetimes, then I would accept it without question. Having certain changes every few years leads me (and others) to the simple question of "why?". What is wrong that needs changing and what does the change signify?


 
I can agree with part of that...If it ain't broke, don't fix it...

But I think new SD oriented forms would actually be a good change, as opposed to all the other changes that have happened recently.


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## exile (Dec 12, 2008)

miguksaram said:


> I'd be interested in getting the information on this when you get a chance.  Thank you.



This is what I have, m., from Abernethy's newsletter:

Purchase Link: 
www.lulu.com/commerce/index.php?fBuyContent=4885762
(Cost: £2.90 Download - £7.51 Printed Version)

I'm very interested in this whole notion myself&#8212;I've no ambitions to create my own hyungs, lol, but I'm interested in what the author, David Nielsen, thinks are the critical elements that anyone who does create a kata or other kind of form has to take into account....


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## YoungMan (Dec 12, 2008)

My take on this:

Forms are about much more than self defense. They should be a representation of the aesthetics, philosophy, and culture of the country that spawned them.
I do believe that new forms from the Kukkiwon are overdue. The current forms, though beautiful in their own right, are the result of a nation that had only become liberated from Japanese rule 20 years previously. I would love to see new forms that, while including self defense aspects, also include a truly Korean aethetic. I would love to see Taekkyun-influenced forms. It's not my decision obviously, but my personal preference. Perhaps 20 years from now, when I am an 8th or 9th Dan elder statesman it will fall to me to develop something new again.


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## miguksaram (Dec 12, 2008)

exile said:


> This is what I have, m., from Abernethy's newsletter:
> 
> Purchase Link:
> www.lulu.com/commerce/index.php?fBuyContent=4885762
> (Cost: £2.90 Download - £7.51 Printed Version)


 
Thanks.  Much appreciated.


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## dancingalone (Dec 12, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> My take on this:
> 
> Forms are about much more than self defense. They should be a representation of the aesthetics, philosophy, and culture of the country that spawned them.
> I do believe that new forms from the Kukkiwon are overdue. The current forms, though beautiful in their own right, are the result of a nation that had only become liberated from Japanese rule 20 years previously. I would love to see new forms that, while including self defense aspects, also include a truly Korean aethetic. I would love to see Taekkyun-influenced forms. It's not my decision obviously, but my personal preference. Perhaps 20 years from now, when I am an 8th or 9th Dan elder statesman it will fall to me to develop something new again.




YM, have you seen any of the Chil Sung or Yuk Rho hyung from Tang Soo Do/Soo Bahk Do?  Those were created by Hwang Kee, one of the kwan heads, and their performance ethos are decidedly different from any of the Japanese-influenced forms.  Just curious if they were in line with what you were invisioning or not.


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## Tez3 (Dec 12, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> And yet, one of the primary problems that the Kukkiwon had to deal with for years was the fact that the President did not practice Taekwondo. In other words, very high ranking men who did practice had to submit their students' applications for Dan and advanced Dan to be signed by a man who did not practice.
> I respect Exile's right to an opinion. However, the fact that he feels qualified to comment on the state of Taekwondo and where it should be heading when he has practiced for six years and holds *merely a 1st Dan* *makes it very hard for me (and I'm sure others) to take his opinions* *seriously.* The fact that he happens to be a moderator for MT is totally irrelevant btw.
> I'm glad he has shown such an interest in MA history and culture, as have I. The fact remains, however, that he is a 1st Dan with six years experience. In any legitmate Taekwondo organization that I can think of, he wouldn't even be allowed to judge.


 
:lfao::lfao::lfao:


I am supposed to laugh aren't I? it's not a real post surely!

Oh my dear youngman, if you could only see how pompous, patronising and insulting this sounds. I'm sure you mean well but oh dear, oh dear.


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## exile (Dec 12, 2008)

miguksaram said:


> Thanks.  Much appreciated.



You're most welcome, m., and if we get a few people reading this book, there is probably a lively and constructive MT thread or two up the line, based on discussion of its content. I really hope something like that happens...


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## bignick (Dec 12, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> :lfao::lfao::lfao:
> 
> 
> I am supposed to laugh aren't I? it's not a real post surely!
> ...



A note, you should always be able to take someone's opinions seriously.  Anyone who disregards someone else's ideas outright has some problems of their own.  This doesn't mean we have to act or implement a white belt's ideas on running our classes.  But the fact that you so readily dismiss exile's thoughts because of his experience is troubling.  

He didn't even advocate anything, merely expressed an interest in seeing what they would eventually come up with.  I don't see what anyone's rank has to do with statements like that.  If someone told me the current head of Shotokan was coming up with some new forms based on his ideas of karate in a modern world I would find that interesting regardless of my total lack of experience in karate.


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## Tez3 (Dec 12, 2008)

bignick said:


> A note, you should always be able to take someone's opinions seriously. Anyone who disregards someone else's ideas outright has some problems of their own. This doesn't mean we have to act or implement a white belt's ideas on running our classes. But the fact that *you* so readily dismiss exile's thoughts because of his experience is troubling.
> 
> He didn't even advocate anything, merely expressed an interest in seeing what they would eventually come up with. I don't see what anyone's rank has to do with statements like that. If someone told me the current head of Shotokan was coming up with some new forms based on his ideas of karate in a modern world I would find that interesting regardless of my total lack of experience in karate.


 

Er it wasn't me Guv!


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## bignick (Dec 12, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> Er it wasn't me Guv!


No, I meant to include YoungMan's post as well  from your quote, my mistake.


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## Tez3 (Dec 13, 2008)

bignick said:


> No, I meant to include YoungMan's post as well from your quote, my mistake.


 
No worries!


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## YoungMan (Dec 13, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> :lfao::lfao::lfao:
> 
> 
> I am supposed to laugh aren't I? it's not a real post surely!
> ...


 
It is a real post and I stand by it.


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## exile (Dec 13, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> It is a real post and I stand by it.



Well, of _course_ it is, YM, and _of course_ you do! I can't think of anyone else on MT who has ever demanded evidence of advanced dan rank from someone expressing an enthusiastic view of a possible new development in _any_ martial art. 

And with that, folks, I'd like to suggest that we rewind the clock a little bit and just pretend that YM's pretty much totally off-topic post never happened. Judging by the reception it got, _we'd_ be just as happy to, and I suspect, in spite of his brave front in the above post, he'd probably be just as glad if we forgot about it too. My guess is, it hasn't had the intended effect&#8212;quite the reverse, in fact&#8212;and maybe the kindest thing we can all do is to just ignore his unfortunate initial post&#8212;I wouldn't disagree with a single thing anyone's said in response to it, but we're big people here, and we all know that sometimes the best thing to do is just roll your eyes and move on. 

So what I'd like to do is return to Terry's OP and one of the points someone&#8212;miguksarum, I think?&#8212;raised above, because it's been nagging at me a little also: just what would a specifically dedicated SD-based hyung _look_ like? I mean, if folks like our own Stuart Anslow (StuartA) and Simon John O'Neil (SJON) are right in their detailed practical analyses of TKD hyungs, there is a whole rich world of combat applications in the forms we already have. If they, and kata bunkai pioneers like Rick Clark and Iain Abernethy are right, the problem isn't with the forms themselves, but with the camouflage that was thrown over the interpretation of the pattern movements by Anko Itosu&#8212;and by his peers who, for whatever reason, went along happily with Itosu's repackaging of the fighting content of karate forms as simple punch-block-kick sequences. The advice of all these people is just: learn how to read the forms better, in a way closer to their original intent, rather than the way Itosu packaged them for the Okinawan school system. So exactly what would a form which tried to make its practical ready-for-use street combat content more obvious do differently? 

You see what I'm wondering about? Short of hauling out a flag out of your dobok sleeve at the beginning of every new tech that announced, "Now I shall be showing how to  deflect a hard shove from in initial Fence hand setup and follow it up with a grip on one of the attackers shoving arms and going inside with a hard horizontal elbow strike to his face, which I shall then convert via muchimi with the hand of the striking elbow arm, and a hard 180º pivot, into a throw-down", or whatever the new tech was all about, how would these new poomsae look different from the older classic ones? What would be _distinctive_ about them that corresponded to their avowed SD orientation?


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## YoungMan (Dec 13, 2008)

Agreed. Time to get back on topic.

Dancingalone, I saw clips of the forms you mentioned.  The flow is sort of what I was thinking of, but I would combine the flowing action with the element of power prevalent in modern Taekwondo and add more kicks. I would like to see more jumping front and side kicks, as well as spin kicks and at least one jumping back roundhouse.  In other words, take the flow of Taekkyun, but add power and the high, spinning, and jumping kicks of Korean kicking. Best of the old and new.


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## dancingalone (Dec 14, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> Dancingalone, I saw clips of the forms you mentioned.  The flow is sort of what I was thinking of, but I would combine the flowing action with the element of power prevalent in modern Taekwondo and add more kicks. I would like to see more jumping front and side kicks, as well as spin kicks and at least one jumping back roundhouse.  In other words, take the flow of Taekkyun, but add power and the high, spinning, and jumping kicks of Korean kicking. Best of the old and new.



I see.  Do you envision these forms as self-defense oriented or are they more of a demo of what encompasses the art of taekwondo in your view?  Nothing is wrong with either purpose IMO by the way.  



			
				exile said:
			
		

> just what would a specifically dedicated SD-based hyung _look_ like?



If I were making some up right now, they would be very short.  Perhaps limited to 15 moves or less, and they would have clear attacker and defender roles so one could practice both sides.  I would probably call them waza rather than kata.  Not sure what the Korean equivalent to waza is...  If any of you have practiced any jujutsu arts, you probably have an idea of what I'm getting at.


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## terryl965 (Dec 14, 2008)

Ok I got done talking to some pretty high up people and they are not changes the Tae Gueks but adding additional poomsae to the exsisting one's. They are suppose to be three to five added at BB level that is more in line to self defense type of scenirio's. Which someone would hve some video of what they consider more SD like.


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## IcemanSK (Dec 14, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> Ok I got done talking to some pretty high up people and they are not changes the Tae Gueks but adding additional poomsae to the exsisting one's. They are suppose to be three to five added at BB level that is more in line to self defense type of scenirio's. Which someone would hve some video of what they consider more SD like.


 

Are the 1st two the one's introduced last year, or are they different ones? I'm hoping for different forms. The forms they introduced last year were not helpful.


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## terryl965 (Dec 14, 2008)

IcemanSK said:


> Are the 1st two the one's introduced last year, or are they different ones? I'm hoping for different forms. The forms they introduced last year were not helpful.


 
The way I understad it those from last year are notin the mix right now. These will be completely new in they are accepted by all.


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## IcemanSK (Dec 14, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> The way I understad it those from last year are notin the mix right now. These will be completely new in they are accepted by all.


 

Excellent news on both counts!:bangahead:


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## exile (Dec 14, 2008)

IcemanSK said:


> Excellent news on both counts!:bangahead:



Agreed, most heartily.


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## terryl965 (Dec 14, 2008)

IcemanSK said:


> Excellent news on both counts!:bangahead:


 
I can only echoe what you have said.


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## Tez3 (Dec 15, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> Agreed. Time to get back on topic.
> 
> Dancingalone, I saw clips of the forms you mentioned. The flow is sort of what I was thinking of, but I would combine the flowing action with the element of power prevalent in modern Taekwondo and add more kicks. I would like to see more *jumping front and side kicks, as well as spin kicks* and at least *one jumping back roundhouse*. In other words, take the flow of Taekkyun, but add power and the high, spinning, and jumping kicks of Korean kicking. Best of the old and new.


 
I've always wondered why in nearly all the styles katas/forms I've seen or done there isn't more kicks, I can't recall seeing a kata with a roundhouse kick at all never mind jumping ones. The only kicks I've seen really are basic front and side kicks. Seems odd to leave kicks out in any style really let alone TKD.


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## Laurentkd (Dec 15, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> I've always wondered why in nearly all the styles katas/forms I've seen or done there isn't more kicks, I can't recall seeing a kata with a roundhouse kick at all never mind jumping ones. The only kicks I've seen really are basic front and side kicks. Seems odd to leave kicks out in any style really let alone TKD.


 

My instructor says his instructer says that originally sparring was intended to practice kicks aand forms were more for upper body practice.  Of course, sparring was different back then...


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## exile (Dec 15, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> I've always wondered why in nearly all the styles katas/forms I've seen or done there isn't more kicks, I can't recall seeing a kata with a roundhouse kick at all never mind jumping ones. The only kicks I've seen really are basic front and side kicks. Seems odd to leave kicks out in any style really let alone TKD.



The kata, and forms in related arts, were originally recordings of combat-effective techniques, and high/complex kicks were just not part of the arsenal that people like Matsumura, Azato, Otosu, Peichin and the other Okinawan karate pioneers used as fighting methods. Motobu in his writings makes it clear that the kata were regarded as fighting styles _themselves_, rather than being mere _components_ of separate arts. The lack of complex kicks suggests a suspicion on the part of the early karate masters that such kicks would be useful at the typical fighting distances of violent civilian encounters&#8212;their preference seems to have been, train techniques for close quarters, and the katas, as records of those techs, would inevitably show very few kicks. 

It's interesting to see how this changed, but not very much, as time went by. If you compare the kata Empi with the Korean borrowing Eunbi (even the name of this hyung was left essentially unchanged), what you see is that certain leg strikes that were based on the assumption of CQ combat, involving nasty groin strikes and other techs based on closing the distance, have been converted into a stylistically preferable high kick. Take a look at the bunkai  Paul James offers for a certain recurrent movement sequence in Empi. In Eunbi, those knee strikes James illustrates are replaced by high front snap kicks, with the knee strike reinterpreted as merely the chamber for those high kicks. The Empi leg movements make complete sense at the close range the combat assumes, in the context of the associated hand techs&#8212;but the high front snap kicks in Eunbi are seriously problematic, because they imply a fighting range that doesn't fit at all well with the kind of close-in attacks that the bunkai for the hand techs represent. 

So what you see seems to be a kind of progressive revisionism with respect to the original Japanse forms and their combat interpretation, in the direction of more acrobatic and stylized interpretation of leg movements. Even so, the majority of movements in virtually any of the classic TKD hyungs are hand/arm techs, a legacy of their sources in Shotokan, or in a few instances, still older versions of karate. Those new hyungs that we saw videos of quite some time back, or the Chloe Bruce type performances, show the next phase of this process, with the CQ combat content replaced almost entirely by acrobatics....


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## YoungMan (Dec 15, 2008)

My take on this:

Historically, Taekkyun did not utilize forms, being a dynamic combat-oriented art. In fact, forms are a relatively recent invention.  It would stand to reason that Taekwondo, originally heavily influenced by Japanese styles after the Occupation, would incorporate the Japanese-style forms, especially since their native styles didn't use them.
Only later, when Korean styles were allowed to grow independent of outside intervention, would native Korean techniques (i.e. advanced kicking) be incorporated into forms designed for and by Koreans.
And since forms should be a holistic representation of the culture that spawned them, it is perfectly reasonable to assume that modern Korean forms should incorporate the advanced kicking of the culture that designed them.


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## dancingalone (Dec 15, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> I've always wondered why in nearly all the styles katas/forms I've seen or done there isn't more kicks, I can't recall seeing a kata with a roundhouse kick at all never mind jumping ones. The only kicks I've seen really are basic front and side kicks. Seems odd to leave kicks out in any style really let alone TKD.



I realize the ATA Songahm style of TKD is primarily a USA  phenomenon, but  let's credit their forms for having lots and lots of kicking.   Of course, I don't believe the forms are really more than just a series of techniques strung together into a predetermine floor pattern, but as TKD forms they do display all the nice kicks available in the TKD array.


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## dancingalone (Dec 15, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> My take on this:
> And since forms should be a holistic representation of the culture that spawned them, it is perfectly reasonable to assume that modern Korean forms should incorporate the advanced kicking of the culture that designed them.



The Taekyon discussion aside, I agree with this part of your post.  Any onlookers should also check out the Kuk Sool Won forms for some interesting interpretations on modern Korean-invented hyung.


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## StuartA (Dec 16, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> It is a real post and I stand by it.


:uhyeah:



exile said:


> just what would a specifically dedicated SD-based hyung _look_ like? I mean, if folks like our own Stuart Anslow (StuartA) and Simon John O'Neil (SJON) are right in their detailed practical analyses of TKD hyungs, there is a whole rich world of combat applications in the forms we already have.


I agree.. I mean how many times are the KKW gonna chnage patterns until they look just like Okinawan kata again - as TBH, these are the creators of the SD forms that we now have in TKD! Personally, i thibnk they should work with what they got and simply PAY Simon to improve things 



> If they, and kata bunkai pioneers like Rick Clark and Iain Abernethy are right, the problem isn't with the forms themselves, but with the camouflage that was thrown over the interpretation of the pattern movements by Anko Itosu


Indeed.. the guys at the top just need to admit that and get on with doing their best for the TKD Students



Laurentkd said:


> My instructor says his instructer says that originally sparring was intended to practice kicks aand forms were more for upper body practice. Of course, sparring was different back then...


I agree to a point, as Kicks were practiced through other means, but also...
See: http://www.raynerslanetkd.com/ARTICLES_GettingYourKicksfromTaekwonDoPatterns.html
And : http://www.raynerslanetkd.com/ARTICLES_Pattern_Apps.html (last paragraph)




YoungMan said:


> My take on this: Historically, Taekkyun did not utilize forms, being a dynamic combat-oriented art.


Taek-Kyun has next to nothing to do with TKD except its anme sake and the fact they kicked!



> In fact, forms are a relatively recent invention.


Don't think so, they existed pre-Karate in both Okinawa and China!



> It would stand to reason that Taekwondo, originally heavily influenced by Japanese styles after the Occupation, would incorporate the Japanese-style forms, especially since their native styles didn't use them.
> Only later, when Korean styles were allowed to grow independent of outside intervention, would native Korean techniques (i.e. advanced kicking) be incorporated into forms designed for and by Koreans.


I agree.. but is a Korean take on things the best thing for SD orientated forms.. I dont think so!



> And since forms should be a holistic representation of the culture that spawned them, it is perfectly reasonable to assume that modern Korean forms should incorporate the advanced kicking of the culture that designed them.


Whilst in essense I agree with this post, the OP wasnt about culture, it was about SD forms.. an in that sense, very few kicks would be incorporated above waist height for colour belts....hmmm, sounds like the Ch'ang on forms lol 

Stuart


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## SJON (Dec 16, 2008)

Hello.

I've just got back from China. I see I've missed some interesting discussion. I hope to get back into the swing of things over the next few days, and this looks like a good place to start.

Cheers,

Simon


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