# Palm up block



## fightingfat (Apr 29, 2006)

*OK- here's a quick question for all you Sifu's and students with any knowledge of JKD and/ or WC...

1. In Wing Chun's forst form, Sui Nim Tao, we show Taan Sau, palm up, across to the centre and forward to one fist distance from the body. How does this differ in application and why is there a difference between the technique's true nature and the demonstrated form?

2. If Taan Sau occupies the centre- line, what else must be true Why?*


----------



## ed-swckf (Apr 29, 2006)

fightingfat said:
			
		

> *OK- here's a quick question for all you Sifu's and students with any knowledge of JKD and/ or WC...*
> 
> *1. In Wing Chun's forst form, Sui Nim Tao, we show Taan Sau, palm up, across to the centre and forward to one fist distance from the body. How does this differ in application and why is there a difference between the technique's true nature and the demonstrated form?*
> 
> *2. If Taan Sau occupies the centre- line, what else must be true Why?*


 
Its only tan sau if you make contact on the outside, it can just as easily be training jum sau.  Looking at the elbow postion you are trining do you think its wrong to go beyond a fist distance from the body?


----------



## fightingfat (May 2, 2006)

ed-swckf said:
			
		

> Looking at the elbow postion you are trining do you think its wrong to go beyond a fist distance from the body?


 
No, I would imagine taan is taan where ever you use it- I just thought that the way it was demonstrated in the form was one fist distance from the body. Is this the case as far as you're concerned?


----------



## ed-swckf (May 2, 2006)

fightingfat said:
			
		

> No, I would imagine taan is taan where ever you use it- I just thought that the way it was demonstrated in the form was one fist distance from the body. Is this the case as far as you're concerned?


 
So why do we train that fist distance from the body?


----------



## fightingfat (May 3, 2006)

Hmmmm. I don't know. I would suggest it was like all things in the form, to hide it's true meaning and to be asthetically pleasing?


----------



## Robert Lee (May 3, 2006)

fist distance from the body. rib area is for mid level parry application. whilt still offering protection to you rib area. when usef at a upper lewvel parry you have to raise it further away But can retract it down  And you rember you parry for just a short period any way  deflect and strike. But if you look at FORM pak upper tan middle gong low. But these can be varyed.


----------



## ed-swckf (May 3, 2006)

Robert Lee said:
			
		

> fist distance from the body. rib area is for mid level parry application. whilt still offering protection to you rib area. when usef at a upper lewvel parry you have to raise it further away But can retract it down And you rember you parry for just a short period any way deflect and strike. But if you look at FORM pak upper tan middle gong low. But these can be varyed.


 
So you feel the fist distance is kept in order to protect ribs?


----------



## fightingfat (May 4, 2006)

ed-swckf said:
			
		

> So you feel the fist distance is kept in order to protect ribs?


 
Are we talking about form or application here? Surely in application any 'palm up block' is taan, it can come back or go forward be up, down anywhere it works!?


----------



## Hung Fa Moose (May 4, 2006)

So now, what part of the body are you talking is 1 fist distance away from the body? The elbow? The hand? I imagine the elbow, but correct me if I'm thinking wrong. In my family's tradition, the Taan Sau is done with the palm facing the face, as if you're looking into a mirror, and it is not a block. Taan means to disperse, not to block. Many Wing Chun defensive techinques are not all out force on force blocks. Taan Sau is a way of dispersing energy away from your Centerline, hence it has a redirectional nature, not a stopping nature. You do not use it to stop energy, merely redirect it away from you. The reason our Taan Sau is positioned as described above is thay why waste time with 2 Taan Sau techniques when you can use 1 to cover all of the space from your chest to your face? No need for High and Low and all the space in between Taan Sau. Line your wrist up to where your nose and upper lip meet and position the elbow half way between your CL and Shoulder and you can see for yourself how much space is covered by one arm. Chest, neck, face are all covered, so no need to chase hands. Cover the space instead, acts as better insurance against a strike. 

As for Taan or another techinque, we generally consider it Taan if the energy is coming to out center and we deflect it to the outside, using the outside of the forearm. There is another similar technique called Gaan Sau (whose shape is identical to Taan Sau), which uses the inside of the forearm, closing off the space from the shoulder to the Center.


----------



## ed-swckf (May 4, 2006)

fightingfat said:
			
		

> Are we talking about form or application here? Surely in application any 'palm up block' is taan, it can come back or go forward be up, down anywhere it works!?


 
In that incident, application.


----------



## ed-swckf (May 4, 2006)

Hung Fa Moose said:
			
		

> So now, what part of the body are you talking is 1 fist distance away from the body? The elbow? The hand? I imagine the elbow, but correct me if I'm thinking wrong. In my family's tradition, the Taan Sau is done with the palm facing the face, as if you're looking into a mirror, and it is not a block. Taan means to disperse, not to block. Many Wing Chun defensive techinques are not all out force on force blocks. Taan Sau is a way of dispersing energy away from your Centerline, hence it has a redirectional nature, not a stopping nature. You do not use it to stop energy, merely redirect it away from you. The reason our Taan Sau is positioned as described above is thay why waste time with 2 Taan Sau techniques when you can use 1 to cover all of the space from your chest to your face? No need for High and Low and all the space in between Taan Sau. Line your wrist up to where your nose and upper lip meet and position the elbow half way between your CL and Shoulder and you can see for yourself how much space is covered by one arm. Chest, neck, face are all covered, so no need to chase hands. Cover the space instead, acts as better insurance against a strike.
> 
> As for Taan or another techinque, we generally consider it Taan if the energy is coming to out center and we deflect it to the outside, using the outside of the forearm. There is another similar technique called Gaan Sau (whose shape is identical to Taan Sau), which uses the inside of the forearm, closing off the space from the shoulder to the Center.


 
I was refering to the elbow yes.  I have always been told that tan translated as palm up and there for tan sau was palm up arm, its just general western laziness that refers to it as a block as we should all know it is intended to disperse.


----------



## liuseongsystem (May 4, 2006)

we have the same elbow distance rule in Kuntao.

it is for a couple reasons:

1) in that position, the upper arm protects the armpit and lung area, while the elbow protects the short ribs and liver/stomach area.

2) the distance of the elbow from the ribcage also has the effect of allowing the shoulder girdle to act like a shock absorber in the event that someone strikes one of your arms forcefully, like a front kick to your guard. if the elbow was too close, the arm would be driven into the body...doesnt feel good.  also it is not a block, but more a built in or passive defense...i.e. good posture.

3) it also creates tonus or slight but favorable muscular contraction, enabling you to initiate arm movements more quickly.

4)in kuntao, when we punch or chop we snap the elbow back to that position with strike energy, to hit any potential incoming attacks.  

thanx.


----------



## ed-swckf (May 4, 2006)

liuseongsystem said:
			
		

> we have the same elbow distance rule in Kuntao.
> 
> it is for a couple reasons:
> 
> ...


 
Your number 2 contained what i was particularly hoping to hear, or at least touched upon it.


----------



## brothershaw (May 4, 2006)

to my understanding tan sau is tan sau whether you tan on the inside or the outside


----------



## ed-swckf (May 5, 2006)

brothershaw said:
			
		

> to my understanding tan sau is tan sau whether you tan on the inside or the outside


 
nah, if you get contact on the inside of your arm you will more than likely be using jum sau.  However it doesn't matter if you use it on the inside or the outside of the opponents arm, if that what you meant then yes it will still be tan sau regardless of where you contact the opponent but it would be on the outside of your arm.


----------



## brothershaw (May 5, 2006)

ed-swckf said:
			
		

> nah, if you get contact on the inside of your arm you will more than likely be using jum sau. However it doesn't matter if you use it on the inside or the outside of the opponents arm, if that what you meant then yes it will still be tan sau regardless of where you contact the opponent but it would be on the outside of your arm.


 
I had to think about what you said for about 5 seconds.
Yes you are correct in terms of contact on the arm.
and I was talking in terms of position ( inside of the oppenents arm or outside of the opponents arm) but in both cases you would  be making contact with the outside of your arm unless you were really doing something wierd.


----------



## ed-swckf (May 5, 2006)

brothershaw said:
			
		

> I had to think about what you said for about 5 seconds.
> Yes you are correct in terms of contact on the arm.
> and I was talking in terms of position ( inside of the oppenents arm or outside of the opponents arm) but in both cases you would be making contact with the outside of your arm unless you were really doing something wierd.


 
Exactly.


----------



## Robert Lee (May 5, 2006)

In training a person does certion things. In real fighting a person does what they do. Inside tan or outside tan. If you did it in live action you just did it no set method. And better yet if you just hit it was not needed


----------



## brothershaw (May 5, 2006)

Robert Lee said:
			
		

> In training a person does certion things. In real fighting a person does what they do. Inside tan or outside tan. If you did it in live action you just did it no set method. And better yet if you just hit it was not needed


 
THe point isnt inside or outside  position alone, but inside or outside with inner or outer forearm contact, in which case you will  fook or something else instead of tan, instinctively because of yor training


----------



## monji112000 (Jun 23, 2006)

> *OK- here's a quick question for all you Sifu's and students with any knowledge of JKD and/ or WC...
> 
> 1. In Wing Chun's forst form, Sui Nim Tao, we show Taan Sau, palm up, across to the centre and forward to one fist distance from the body. How does this differ in application and why is there a difference between the technique's true nature and the demonstrated form?
> 
> 2. If Taan Sau occupies the centre- line, what else must be true Why?*


 
1. You are generalizing, and I don't follow were you are going. In a fight you can't be 100% perfect. But in the form and in a fight its used smilar.
Tan sao as shown in the form can be soft or hard. it can whip or push/jam, or redirect.


----------



## bcbernam777 (Jun 26, 2006)

The one fist distance has to do with the conept of the "confined area" a principle that is utilised in harmony with "Loy Lau ..." receive what comes and send of what retreats. To extend beyond this distance is to destroy the confied area and make your tactical advantage weakern


----------



## fightingfat (Jun 26, 2006)

So do you all give up?


----------



## monji112000 (Jun 26, 2006)

short answer is its not.
You learn the "safe distance", the idea of covering the center. You learn the jaming tan sao and you learn the wipping tan sao.
The speed and combination you use isn't shown, becouse thats not what the form is for.

JMO so lets here yours.%-}


----------



## Kensai (Jun 27, 2006)

fightingfat said:
			
		

> So do you all give up?



Lol, come on then smartypants, let's hear it mate.


----------

