# Stick techniques



## Bester (Jun 23, 2004)

I have seen at least one book (I believe by Dr. Hatsumi) that covered both single and double stick techniques.  

 Were these common skills of the ninja of old, and are they a regular part of todays ninjutsu training?

 How do they compare with the better known Fillipino techniques?


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## Kurohana (Jun 23, 2004)

Don't know much about the FMA styles such as arnis, but my take is that they are different to a degree. All weapons techniques are just an extension of the body. Hanbo was and is still a very important part of our training. As is the bo and jo. My (limited) experience with arnis is that it relied to heavily on treating the stick as a club. While in the Bujinkan it's treated as an extension of the body. Can you do a lock with it? Then do it. Smack someone upside the head? Okay, do that to. Jab them? Yep. Do it.

This is not a slam against the FMA, just from my limited experience. May have just been a bad teacher.


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## Bester (Jun 23, 2004)

I may ask a few FMAers too.  The little bit I've seen of the Arnis they seem comparable, but I'm comparing 1 seminar to a book which of course is not a good way to understand.  

Who was your teacher if I may ask?


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## Kreth (Jun 23, 2004)

I can't speak to Arnis, but from what I have seen, many stick arts concentrate mainly on striking. Our training tends to use a lot of grappling techniques as well, mainly just extensions of what can be done with empty hands...

Jeff


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## Flatlander (Jun 23, 2004)

I have never trained in Ninjustsu extensively, I'll begin with that caveat.  From a relatively non - expert perspective from one who does train Modern Arnis, I'd add to this that yes, we do treat the stick as an extension of the body.  You are obviously correct in that it can be used for locking, throwing the opponent, choking, disarming through various means, as well as a multitude of different striking variations.  Fundamental to the entire system is the reality that all movements translate from emptyhand to stick, knife, sword, staff, double stick, stick and knife, double knife, screwdriver, shovel, axe, ad infinitum.


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## r.severe (Jun 23, 2004)

The kali systems I have trained in are very complex... and cover any types of striking, grappling, throwing, chocking, takedowns, tackles, muti weponry use, etc...
The kali systems are not any different than what is found in ..say.. kukishinden ryu.. the weapon and body are one..
The back ground, culture, clothing, wood and training seem to make the small difference..
There is not much that is not covered in a legit kali system...
The system I trained in the most has 12 different areas that cover the base of what is known as the juhachimon in Japanese training.

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## George Kohler (Jun 23, 2004)

Bester said:
			
		

> I have seen at least one book (I believe by Dr. Hatsumi) that covered both single and double stick techniques.



What book was this? I don't believe I seen Hatsumi sensei showing double stick techniques.


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## chidarake (Jun 23, 2004)

Wether the ninja origionally trained in stick fighting i dont know i can only assume they did because you could go off into the woods and fashion one in
in a short time.lol imagine that a good bo staff could be just  a hike in 
the woods.


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## Cruentus (Jun 23, 2004)

George Kohler said:
			
		

> What book was this? I don't believe I seen Hatsumi sensei showing double stick techniques.



There is "Stick Fighting" by Maasaki Hatsumi and Quintin Chambers:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t..._books_3/102-9237310-7882545?v=glance&s=books

Double sticks? I don't know if that's in there. If memory serves me correct, It's mostly Hanbo techniques.

 :asian:


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## Cryozombie (Jun 23, 2004)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> Double sticks? I don't know if that's in there. If memory serves me correct, It's mostly Hanbo techniques.
> 
> :asian:



koppo sticks too! He has a section on that, although I do not recall many double stick techniques if any... it was mostly, as you said, basic hanbo locks and takedowns.


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## George Kohler (Jun 24, 2004)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> There is "Stick Fighting" by Maasaki Hatsumi and Quintin Chambers:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t..._books_3/102-9237310-7882545?v=glance&s=books
> 
> ...



Yes, I know about the _Stick Fighting_ book. I was asking which book had the double sticks.


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## Elizium (Jun 24, 2004)

Iam studying the Stick fighting book at the moment (scanned onto my PC for easeier access) and it has no double stick techniques.


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## Airyu@hotmail.com (Jun 26, 2004)

Hello Everyone,

Great points by all, here are a few more to consider:

The FMAs contain a wealth of knowledge that flows from striking to locking, disarms, controls etc. This can flow to and from bladed weapons (primarily shorter in length than a sword/katana) to empty hand as well as including projectiles, double weapon drills, spear, staff, chain, tabak toyok,  etc.

Most Traditional Japanese arts in the curriculum of the Bujinkan concentrate on the Hanbo and Rokushakubo for their core curriculum. Both are excellent weapons, for striking and grappling. The hanbo being one of the best for everyday carry and use. Many of the techniques you see in the Stick Fighting book have their equivalents in FMAs and probably vice versa. Guro Dan Inosanto once said There are only so many ways to hurt the human body, and everyone discovered them.  It is very true in comparing the two arts as well! 

Balance your practice with some practice in both arts, you cant go wrong if you can find a good teacher to bring you along the path!

Bufu Ikkan

Steve Lefebvre

www.Bujinkandojo.net

ps: Shihan Ralph, I hope all is well with you, it has been too long since we have gotten to train together.


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## r.severe (Jun 28, 2004)

Steve sensei..
I feel many misunderstand the FMA a great deal...
They maninly do not have knowledge of the complex nature of the different systems.. and how close they are to say.. juhachimon..
My AOC classes are the focus of the kail parts of my own personal research... stick, knife, boxing and grappling..
Many people don't even know kail has boxing and grappling systems.. and ground combat..
With the Jaoanese arts I have went outside for more information on weaponry than what is offered in the Bujinkan..
The many Japanese ryu that have weaponry.. I mean effective weaponry is wonderful and refreshing...
With the 6 Hatsumi ryuha and these others I have found a more 'rounded' training outline...
These are posted on my web site under private classes.. Japanese weaponry.. take a look if you have time..
Many of these will also be part of my new DVD series coming up..
I have shot some very entertaining footage so far.. very entertaining... to put into the instructional parts to keep it fun.. very much like the 'Quest' series..
The two books I did are still on the back burner too.. they are the most artful and complete martial training outline on hanbo and rokushakubo I have ever seen in print...
I should get that going again.. But I'm playing to much football these days.. and I'm a lazy person.. to much zazen..LOL.. but the football has increased my speed... if that was really needed..LOL..
It's funny to see a 315 ib human being moving the way I do.. even at 43..
Yes Steve sensei.. it has been many moons... I last saw you in New York..
Rich Henderson is still training and has a great following.. there..
Have you been over to the kutaki no mura shidoshikai forum yet?
Some really funny stuff going on over there..
We should see each other soon..
With the stick fighting..
What do you feel personally was the best points in the Hastumi sensei book for you and how did it change if any your training years ago..?
And how does the FMA help in your kukishihden ryu bojutsu?????

Ok..

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## Airyu@hotmail.com (Jun 29, 2004)

Hello Shihan Ralph,

	I absolutely agree with you, that many people have a misunderstanding about what the FMAs have to offer. But, like many other systems you, a prospective student, really has to search out and find a good teacher and school in order to learn many of the aspects.

When I first picked up Soke Hatsumis book, it definitely changed my view on the complexities of the hanbo. Way back at the 1989 Tai Kai, we were all working on the hanbo in the gym, when Abbie Allen introduced me to the aspects of grappling with the hanbo. She then went on to introduce me to you, and you took over throwing Chris, several other guys and myself around for the next 30 mins!! I was hooked!! When I started to examine the hanbo techniques, I started to see more applications in the FMA work I was doing. Now, many FMAs are releasing that type of information (Trankada, Palis Palis videos and books are out) so it is becoming much more common knowledge. As for the bojutsu, most FMAs lack the sliding grip and flipping, spinning motions of the staff that the Kukishinden ryu contain. When I have sparred with fellow FMA players, they have adopted the long pole form (similar to Wing Chun, remember those days at the ND boxing gym and sparring with the staffs!! I was bruised for weeks) and they had a hard time countering the motions taught in the Kukishinden ryu bojutsu. I saw a recent video of Guro Abon Pat Baet, and he did demonstrate some of the motions we commonly train in as well as some locking and throwing techniques as well.

I haven't been over to the Kutaki site for some time, as I have let lapse my Shidoshikai card...(beat me now...I have been busy!!)

All the best
Steve Lefebvre, Airyu

Ps: Let Rich know I said hello and wish him all the best!


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## r.severe (Jun 29, 2004)

HA HA .. Steve sensei you are a bad man..
Jissen keiko...
Jittaiken.... not hear-say or reading books.. teaching so called combat skills with no experience in them..

In 1993 Dan Inosanto was teaching the ground combative skills of the baton, sarong and unarmed of panatukan.. 
I was shocked at the mindfulness of the system.

The kukishinden, kukishin ryu have a very good base for in close grappling concepts.... and take it to a level of understanding the short and long staff... but there are other Japanese arts that have a great deal as well as more useful grappling skills as well. This is indeed seen in the kali systems.. hidden there for the student to find.

The methods I have found are complex in nature with the kali grappling standing and ground... unlike the Japanese arts.
I would say it is because of the back ground of the arts and their use in combat.

At the Texas yearly seminar we have in Houston, promoted by Mark Harper, we have a group of Bujinkan shidoshikai members teaching at a two day blow out....
The one where Bud shihan came to.. was a very good one where I showed the ground combative skills of the hanbo and baton...
He was totally blow away at the complex nature in which I threw out the skills and information..
At that time he was dumbfounded at the nature of what I was showing and seem to have no experience with the weaponry on the ground like that and told me he has never seen anything like it in the Bujinkan teachings... ha ha.. I asked he with concern if it was "ok" that I did this methodology even if it was not Bujinkan... he laugh.
The second day they voted me to teach again over all the other shidoshi there.. because I'm such a poor excuse for a shidoshi.. ha ha .
But without the research into the arts outside the Bujinkan or Hatsumi ryuha.. I wouldn't have found my path..
This is called 'gaiden' in Japanese...

Not only does the information 'set you free' it develops the nature of the skills you already have..

This is also notice in tsuba kirai.. kenpo keiko.

With all of this.. have you found any other Japanese arts that have hanbojutsu or good information on the type of grappling you have found in the kukishin, kukishinden ryu..?

What was it that took you too the Bujinkan arts and then out of them to find what it is you were looking for over the years?

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## Airyu@hotmail.com (Jul 6, 2004)

Hello Shihan Ralph,

Sorry for the delayed response as I just got back from Sama Sama, so I have a lot of catching up to do!

Very stimulating questions you present, I hope I can offer some of my insight to them.

Sadly, I have only seen a few schools that offer the hanbo as a piece of their curriculum. What I have found interesting was that two of them had ties to the Yoshin ryu style of jujutsu, very similar in aspects to the Takagi Yoshin ryu style that is taught within the Bujinkan curriculum. So far I have not seen other arts that contain such a rich curriculum as the Kukishinden ryu habojutsu/bojutsu. Many arts are now offering more and more to their lacking curriculums and adding techniques such as the cane and walking stick to help supplement their students training. Often, when I have asked where they have gotten some of their material, they refer to Hatsumi senseis book on stick fighting!! At this years Sayoc Kali Sama Sama, a senior Instructor was teaching stick grappling and the many of the techniques taught were similar in application to the hanbo techniques in the Bujinkan!! (Two separate arts developing similar paths to protecting oneself!)

I joined the Bujinkan in order to progress my fighting skills, as well as to learn all that cool ninja stuff! In 1989 at the New Jersey Tai Kai, I was very impressed by Soke Hatsumis ability to move and flow very effortlessly to toss around his partners, so I became fully hooked. What I did find interesting back then was the lack of any sparring methods incorporated into the curriculum, as well as the diversity of knowledge that students of the same grade level may have had. That was why I decided to start to train under you, from that demonstration in 89, where you and Baker were throwing full contact punches and kicks at each other!!! I can remember the long nights at the 90, 91, 92, 93, 94 Tai Kais, were you held training in the hotel lobbies or in the hotel room, to help students learn more than just what was presented at the Tai Kai event. Sparring was the key, application of a technique only came through being able to apply the action through a resistant opponent. In 96, I passed the Godan testing and was passed to rokudan later that year, but by 97 and 98(even up to today) the politics of the Bujinkan as well as the rapid rise of many Instructor to Senior levels was/is very disappointing. It seemed the skill level was being watered down and many practitioners wanted to be like Soke now instead of having to go through the years of hard and difficult training it took to become that way. 

As I have a passion for all martial arts especially those of combative origin, while I was training in the Bujinkan I also studied many FMAs (and other arts) as well, and continue to work developing real world weapons, and unarmed skills. Primarily I have been working on Sayoc Kali, Floro Fighting system ( Kalis Ilustrisimo based) for real world blade and stick skills (and a whole lot more). I also continue to study the curriculum of the Bujinkan and ninjutsu for the rich diversity it contains. 

Everyones path in the martial arts is different. Anyone telling you not to train with this Instructor or that Instructor should be scrutinized as to why they would say such things. Is it to hold a student back from developing to a new level or learning new skills? Is it their own Ego getting in the way that a student may be better suited to another instructors style of teaching? Every art has its positive and negative aspects, and all students should research what they are particularly interested in, and as Bruce Lee was fond to say Absorb what is useful, Reject what is useless, add what is specifically what is your own.

Bufu Ikkan

Steve Lefebvre, Airyu

www.Bujinkandojo.net


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## r.severe (Jul 6, 2004)

Well good-ness Steve sensei..
What a post.

Yes, I can understand from your post you are seeking paths unknown by most in the martial arts and even into life.
It is funny because many put aside the 'life' part in their training for ego and fear.
Maybe this was the reason you were the first student in my methodology I ranked as yondan..HA HA ..your insight and willing-ness to 'walk on'... beautiful.

With the hanbojutsu...
How does the FMA help with your curriculum, in the Bujinkan?
This might be of some interest to the many ninja here on the forum to brak down some of your insights..
Starting from the base.. how it it developed from stage to stage..?

I understand the Takagi yoshin ryu has hanbo of the kukishin ryu as well as other weponry. As does the kukishin has the jutaijutsu taijutsu gata of takagi yoshin ryu. Funny stuff.. how they mix..

You know I have many years with the FMA as well.. this is no secret.. but the systems you train seem wonderful if they get a grove in your interest level.

Yes, I have the same sadness about the ranking as you do in regards to the Bujinkan. The menkyo is not worth the paper it was written on as far as skill, knowledge and experience is questioned.

Oh well..

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## Airyu@hotmail.com (Jul 7, 2004)

Hello Again Everyone,

I fully agree that too many people let the EGO get in the way of their progression in life.(Oh I must have that next rank paper etc!!) When anyone truly starts to believe in their own martial arts mystique, then they have fallen into the trap of the ego. It is not limited to just the martial arts, but all aspects in life. 

I can remember the Yondan test very well, starting with the 12-15 students I had to grapple and spar with, then the seiza muto dori, and I wont even get into the sleep deprivation from the seminar etc!! When I was heading back home, and stopped driving after a few hours in Albany, I went to get out of the truck, was limping and was having a hard time moving well, people held the door open for me at the rest stop as if I was handicapped!!! (too funny the looks I received that day)

When I first started in the FMA way back in the early 80s, I was fascinated by the way a good practitioner flowed through the sumbrada patterns as well as sinawalli etc. After practicing with those techniques for many a month, I realized that when your opponent was bearing down on you, most of the drills fell out the window, and it became a battle of the caveman! It wasnt for sometime that I realized it was because I was Playing the Game of sparring, that I was trapped in the Classical Mess of the FMA. Once I realized this it changed my whole perspective on training. Avoiding the attack, countering and feinting, simplifying the footwork, non telegraphic motions etc etc. All things that should be common in various martial arts, not just the FMAs. A few years ago I met Guro Carl Atienza, after sitting and talking and working with him, I found some great comparisons to what I had been training in yet I lacked a multiple man attacking strategy, which they work on all the time, so I watched and learned. Two years ago I started with Ray Floro, and right from the get go it was great. He arrives from Australia, we go out to eat (very important!!) head up to the school, and begin to share training methods with each other, then it was sparring time! (Did I learn the effectiveness of the thrust to the head!!!) Sayoc Kali has a different approach then many other FMAs and it deals exclusively with the blade in its many shapes and sizes. From projectiles to close quarters grappling, Sayoc Kali is a great art to train in, as well. 

So how does this influence my Budo training and hanbojutsu practice? (Ill start with the hanbo as an example)

1)	The hanbo is a multi faceted weapon that can start from the thrusting range to kyusho (I like the classical fencing techniques here), all the way to grappling in at close quarters (which quickly relates to firearm retention skills).

2)	How do you start? Prepare a training hanbo for sparring!! Take a PVC pipe, layer it in pipe foam insulation and duct tape the heck out of it and viola! A training hanbo! Be careful as this can still break bones or damage your partner pretty seriously. 

3)	Start with the fundamental Kukishinden ryu curriculum and learn them well. Then add realistic force and attacks from your partner. Finally have him free flow attack you to ensure that you can achieve your techniques.  (Shu, Ha, Ri) The go back and add the following, the thrust from the long range, and allow him to grab your weapon. Go back and start to add other types of sparring: 

Some examples:
 	You armed vs unarmed opponent (strikes only)
	You armed vs unarmed opponent (strikes, locks etc allowed)
	You armed vs armed opponent (strikes only)
	You armed vs armed opponent (all techniques allowed)
	You armed vs multiple unarmed opponents
	You armed vs multiple armed opponents
	Add low light conditions
	Add outdoors conditions
	Add environmental stress conditions (bright lights, verbal abuse, loud sounds, etc)
	Add ground grappling with opponent in mount, guard etc........

This list can go on and on, but the main premise is to be able to fully integrate the techniques through stressful conditions utilizing sparring and scenario based training drills. This is achieved in a step by step progression to continuously challenge a students abilities.

Bufu Ikkan
Steve Lefebvre, Airyu		

www.Bujinkandojo.net


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## Don Roley (Jul 7, 2004)

Airyu@hotmail.com said:
			
		

> In 96, I passed the Godan testing and was passed to rokudan later that year, but by 97 and 98(even up to today) the politics of the Bujinkan as well as the rapid rise of many Instructor to Senior levels was/is very disappointing. It seemed the skill level was being watered down and many practitioners wanted to be like Soke now instead of having to go through the years of hard and difficult training it took to become that way.



So why do you still use the Bujinkan name to attract students when you have let your Bujinkan shidoshikai lapse? Put aside your grouching about how things are not as you think they should be, if you are not willing to be a member of the Bujinkan's teaching orginization, it is immoral to use the name to present yourself as if you are a current member.

Some people like jay Bell have left the Bujinkan because they think they have found a better road for them. There is nothing wrong with that. Each of us have to make our own choices. Each of us will find different ways to go. But to use the Bujinkan name while not being a member is deceitfull. It is like Brian McCarthy or Wayne Roy. Make your break and complain all you want. But drop the Bujinkan name unless you are willing to be a member with all the responsibilities that comes with it.


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## Airyu@hotmail.com (Jul 7, 2004)

Hello Mr. Roley,

Although, I have lapsed in my Shidoshikai, that does not mean I do not practice what Hatsumi Soke teaches,or could ever let go of the past 15 years worth of training in Budo Taijutsu. I prepare my students and offer them the opportunity to receive rank through Japan if they wish it so. I am plain in my dealings with anyone who comes to my school or asks me any questions regarding my training or that of what teach. Just like I am writing to you and anyone else here on this forum.

As for Immoral, how can you teach me of morals? Morality is subjective belief system that is founded early in ones life. I founded my business quite a few years ago and it will not lapse until 2008(on a legal term that is), so I will continue on. At that time I will probably be changing the name to something else. It is not the name that attracts the majority of my students(most who call wonder what the hell it is, that I do teach), as I teach several programs of martial arts at the facility, it is the reputation for turning out good martial artists. I stay out of the politics between the rival groups and train with any and all of them (Jinkekan, Bujinkan, Genbukan).

I am not complaining, I made a statement that was all. Complaining would be a long run on about the evils of this or that, and I have no problems with many many people with in the Bujinkan, or even the material it contains. Many organizations have a similar problem of "rate of rise" in rank, the Bujinkan is not alone in this issue. What I came to discuss was the issue of "stick fighting" and I hope to continue on this subject and not turn this forum into a flame war. This does not help the arts in any manner and shows a lack of maturity in the people engaging in it.

Train Hard it is the Way.

Steven Lefebvre, Airyu

www.Bujinkandojo.net


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## Dale Seago (Jul 7, 2004)

Airyu@hotmail.com said:
			
		

> I prepare my students and offer them the opportunity to receive rank through Japan if they wish it so.



I feel the need to clarify that, as according to the Bujinkan Rules written by Hatsumi sensei you can't have their ranks registered in Japan:



> 2. All members must have a membership card for the year, issued by the Hombu. There are two types of membership card: General Membership Card, and Shidoshi-Kai Membership Card.
> 
> (i) The General Membership Card applies to members of the Bujinkan Dojo, whether ungraded, kyu-grade, or dan-grade.
> 
> ...



As for this part:



> I stay out of the politics between the rival groups and train with any and all of them (Jinkekan, Bujinkan, Genbukan).



Training with the Genbukan and Jinenkan is specifically against the often-stated wishes of the Bujinkan Soke.

With people who claim Bujinkan affiliation behaving this way, if the Bujinkan as an "organization" has a poor reputation it shouldn't come as any surprise.

Okay, back to stick-fighting. . .


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## Airyu@hotmail.com (Jul 7, 2004)

Hello Dale,

Yes, I am familiar with the rules, but I prepare my students for the testing and offer them the opportunity to (if they wish) to get rank under a certified Instructor, I did not say it was under me at this time. This has been done many times.

Also, yes I know of the cross training rule. Silly as it is to try and limit the education and exploration of one's students, some people still try to hold them back. Has it worked? Not really. At a Jinkenkan event, I counted ~7 active Bujinkan Members participating. At a Genbukan event, quite a few more!! 

This thread is already being subverted into the political realm.........again!
Let's drop the political issues and try to learn from one another. I know it is difficult, but that is what we are here for.

So what other methods does everyone use to increase their stick fighting skill? Does anyone spar with the rokushakubo?

Train Hard it is the Way!
Steve Lefebvre, Airyu


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## Dale Seago (Jul 7, 2004)

Airyu@hotmail.com said:
			
		

> Yes, I am familiar with the rules, but I prepare my students for the testing and offer them the opportunity to (if they wish) to get rank under a certified Instructor, I did not say it was under me at this time. This has been done many times.



My apology, then, for jumping on you about that.



> So what other methods does everyone use to increase their stick fighting skill? Does anyone spar with the rokushakubo?



Haven't done it with the rokushakubo, but we did do a bit with a "boffer" version of the jo back when that was the "weapon of the training year".


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## ronhughen (Jul 7, 2004)

"So what other methods does everyone use to increase their stick fighting skill? Does anyone spar with the rokushakubo?"

:ultracool YES!! I love sparring with rokushakubo. Very enlightening. I like sparring with all different levels of intensity and protection. Without protection I can really show my students the importance of the hands as targets . . . I tend to continually tap their fingers when they are trying to do things . . . let them run their hands into my stick . . . it does not take them long to realize how easy it is to mess sombody up from a long, safe distance. ( . . . sparring with weapons in general is verrrrrrry fun, the senior student/teacher just has to control the situation . . . one of the best times is shinai on shinai, I think . . .)


:asian:Other training with the stick? . . . I like to hit things with the stick, not just the rokushakubo, but all sticks. I have a padded training dummy (basically a heavily padded post mounted in a large tub of concrete so it can actually wobble around and be a little bit . . . responsive . . . can be seen in the photo album of my website). I totally agree with the teaching of Ralph shihan that you cannot understand the way the stick works in a fight without hitting things with it. It is a completely different experience to actually make contact with something (especially something simialr to a body) than to just wave the stick around in the air. The proper movent dynamics in the gata become much more clear when you hit a target. Along those lines, sparrig helps me and my students understand the importance of moving the body around the stick more than the stick around the body . . . 

"Silly as it is to try and limit the education and exploration of one's students, some people still try to hold them back. "

:idunno: I agree its silly to restrict a student's sources of study. Ralph shihan has always encouraged me to get involved with other things . . . other views of ninjutsu as well as other styles . . . he's always telling me to go take a judo class, and stuff like that (his "Art of Combat" style exemplifies that attitude). I think if we are searching for the truth we must seek multiple viewpoints . . . everyone, even Hatsumi sensei, expresses things their own way, and everyone recieves and interprets things their own way, so the more viewpoints we have the better chance we have of gaining understanding . . . of realizing the truth . . . aren't they all sort of different pathways to the top of the same mountain, really?


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## ronhughen (Jul 7, 2004)

Dale Seago said:
			
		

> Haven't done it with the rokushakubo, but we did do a bit with a "boffer" version of the jo back when that was the "weapon of the training year".


Dale shihan, 

Are you saying that in all your MANY years of training you have never sparred with a rokushakubo?  That would really surprise me!  I would have thought it would have been a normal part of training for someone at your level.  My experiences have included sparring in all capacities from the begining.

Do you do much sparring or randori using techniques/weapons from any of the ryuha?


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## Dale Seago (Jul 7, 2004)

Actually I _may_ have. . .I have with naginata. . .but I don't specifically recall doing so with rokushakubo. My own dojo's training focuses almost entirely on whatever is being covered/emphasized in Japan in any given year: I, other teachers in the area, and many of our students go over at various times during the year, so we have pretty constant input of things to catch up on.


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## r.severe (Jul 7, 2004)

Ron Sensei, Steve sensei,
Not many that have ranking or even high ranking in the Bujinkan have sparring experience with unarmed foes. Now much less weaponry.
This goes back to the old saying..
You can have concepts about swimming... all you want on dry land..
But until you get into the water.. well...?
Don't confess to have experience in swimming or teach it.

The simple truth is...
You cannot pass on combative methods without first experiencing combative conflicts..
This is bujutsu... NOT budo.

Hey... it's the truth.

Steve sensei was experiencing stick sparring, that's baton, rokushkubo, stick and shield, rope with a weight, etc.. back in the early 90's with me... then came Ron sensei.. so.. these two sensei talk from experience.. at lease with sparring experience... I respect that in a sensei who doesn't talk without it.

ralph severe, kamiyama


----------



## ronhughen (Jul 7, 2004)

Yes, back when I first started training ninjutsu with Brian Koman sensei I was also training at Okinawan shorin Ryu karate and kabudo, and my sensei and I were sparring all the time with all kinds of weapons . . . long bo, sai, tonfa . . . when I was a green belt. One of his senior students and I would go backpacking and we would play around with long bo sparring on a rocky mountainside . . WHAT FUN THAT WAS!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## ronhughen (Jul 7, 2004)

Dale Seago said:
			
		

> I, other teachers in the area, and many of our students go over at various times during the year, so we have pretty constant input of things to catch up on.


So, what kind of sparring is incorporated into the training in Japan?


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## Dale Seago (Jul 7, 2004)

ronhughen said:
			
		

> My experiences have included sparring in all capacities from the begining.



Same here, including fifteen years' worth before I got into the Bujinkan.

These days I have enough challenges with my job.  

(BTW, the guy standing in this photo has worked with me, sometimes for me, on a number of operations.)

If you want to go to Iraq or a few other hotspots we're involved with and have the right background, we're currently paying $10,000 to $20,000 per month.


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## ronhughen (Jul 7, 2004)

r.severe said:
			
		

> You can have concepts about swimming... all you want on dry land..
> But until you get into the water.. well...?


A referesnce to Robert Lane sensei??


----------



## ronhughen (Jul 7, 2004)

Dale Seago said:
			
		

> (BTW, the guy standing in this photo has worked with me, sometimes for me, on a number of operations.)


Wow! What a coincidence . . . the guy I used to spar with on the mountainsides was also named David anderson . . . except I think he is now a Rishi (spelling?) master, and has nothing to do with fightiing . . . 






			
				Dale Seago said:
			
		

> If you want to go to Iraq or a few other hotspots we're involved with and have the right background, we're currently paying $10,000 to $20,000 per month.


Well, thanks for the offer, but I am makig almost that much in a nice safe lab research job . . . life right here at home is quite dangerous enough . . . thank you.


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## r.severe (Jul 7, 2004)

I have known a LOT of people who have traveled to Japan to train or meet with the Japanese masters of the Bujinkan and as well with the soke.
They didn't encounter sparring or even knew of anyone who has while in Japan other than Muramatsu shihan. His Dojo was packed with pads and sparirng equipment.

Yes yes.. I know Nagato shihan did in his youth too.
I believe most Japanese spar in Judo as a youth during school.
Some even in kendo.
I know the karate systems of many that spar.
But the Bujinkan members there?
Not to my knowledge.

I found that making hanbo, rokushakubo, tanbo, etc.. is easy.. I found how to make the best for sparring with stick.
I wouldn't use PVC...
I did as a youth..(13 or so)..]
I use bamboo as the core.. for hanbo as well as other plastic.. like delrin or lexan. Hey even nylon.
I always cover them with 18 oz vylon too. They last and last. I have a few sets than have been used for the past 9 years. They look and feel very good from beating they so much on armor and bodies.
Outside the tradition gata and such.....
In my new series of DVDs I will cover sparring with weaponry and unarmed.. should be funny..

I have sets of kendo armor now that student wear to attack me in randori.. I get to beat them up a great deal.. but it's safe and I can go 75 to 80%.. full speed..
Experience counts..

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## ronhughen (Jul 7, 2004)

I got some six-foot bamboo poles at the garden center ealrlier in the year . . . they are great for sparing . . . kinda light and controlled . . . they are very light and don't really cause injury, but can hurt . . . they also break kinda easy . . . but they only cost 3 bucks each!


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## Jay Bell (Jul 7, 2004)

Whoa!  Ralph has a Mini-Me!


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## ronhughen (Jul 8, 2004)

I suppose everyone is mini comparred to Ralph, eh?


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## ronhughen (Jul 8, 2004)

Isn't that what a student actually is?


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## Cryozombie (Jul 8, 2004)

Dale Seago said:
			
		

> Same here, including fifteen years' worth before I got into the Bujinkan.
> 
> These days I have enough challenges with my job.
> 
> ...




Really? What is "The Right background"?


----------



## r.severe (Jul 8, 2004)

Whoa! Ralph has a Mini-Me! 

Now now Jay.. don't be rude.
I would not lower Ron sensei to my level.
Ron sensei is way to smart and educated to compare to me.
I personally feel lucky to have a friend as well as a student as Ron sensei.

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## Don Roley (Jul 8, 2004)

Airyu@hotmail.com said:
			
		

> Hello Mr. Roley,
> 
> Although, I have lapsed in my Shidoshikai, that does not mean I do not practice what Hatsumi Soke teaches,or could ever let go of the past 15 years worth of training in Budo Taijutsu.



Does not matter. I have heard the same from others like Brian McCarthy and such. The fact remians that you advertise as a Bujinkan dojo when you are not part of the orginization. Dale already dealt with the rules about that. I will just point out that what you are doing is like working at a McDonald's and then going out and opening your own restraut using the same name.

And you do not teach only Bujinkan do you? If you taught Bujinkan 99 percent of the itme and taught things like sinawali at optional seminars, that would be different. But aside from the fact that you use the Bujinkan name without deferring to Hatsumi or agreeing to his conditions, you are also teaching things that he would not.

I am not saying that what you are teaching is bad. But when someone comes into a Bujinkan dojo, they are within their rights to demand that what they see is as close to what the head of the Bujinkan stresses. If you start your own art and list your Bujinkan experience on your resume, great. No one can take the experiences you had away from you. But when you use the Bujinkan name as part of your web address, you morally should be trying to be a Bujinkan dojo instead of just using the name to attract students.


----------



## Airyu@hotmail.com (Jul 8, 2004)

Hello Everyone,

Dale Sensei, no problem, I get jumped on by many people, doesnt rile me in any way.

Mr. Roley, you again try to subvert this conversation to the political end, instead of just sharing knowledge openly. Ill try to answer you as best I can, first: your McDonalds reference is not accurate. I am open and honest when any prospective student comes to this school. They have the option to train in any or all of the arts offered, as well they know my stance on the political situation of the various branch schools. (There is also a hamburger restaurant called McDonalds that is not a part of the franchise chain) Each of the programs is taught separately, and students freely can take any classes they wish. If someone wishes to take only a Combative Concepts class they can do this, if they only want the Budo Taijutsu they can do this as well. Actually, no one has the right to demand anything, this goes into the entitlement theory that hurts society and the martial arts all the time. A student can request to see if what we teach is what he wants to learn, and I offer them these opportunities. Also, you cannot ask or teach me of morality, as you and I come from different backgrounds and as I have stated earlier, morality is founded early in your youth, and I highly doubt that you can teach me about this. Now I hope you can bring your experiences in stick fighting here to the table for discussion, lets put aside the political agenda, and move forward.

Ron Sensei,

Way back at the Wimberly Texas TaiKai, Brian sensei first introduced me to the Kukishinden ryu bojutsu!!!. Last year, at the Sayoc Kali Sama Sama, my student and I did a full contact wooden naginata vs sword demo! Ill have to add some clips up to my site, most people had never seen a demo done like this. In the early 80s I use to Okinawan style rokushakubojutsu fight with boxing gloves, and some headgear on. Getting hit really rocked your clock!!

Train Hard it is the Way!

Steve Lefebvre, Airyu

www.Bujinkandojo.net


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## Don Roley (Jul 8, 2004)

Airyu@hotmail.com said:
			
		

> Mr. Roley, you again try to subvert this conversation to the political end, instead of just sharing knowledge openly.



Excuse me, you brought the subject up into a conversation about stick techniques.

You want to talk about stick techniques, you should stick to the subject. (Pun not intended.) You start talking about why you left the Bujinkan, well, that opens up the conversation to that area. There seems to be a lot of threads lately started by certain people that end up talking about how Bujinkan doesn't cut it in combat and the new system being marketed is so much better.

And the fact remains, you are not a member of the Bujinkan but use its name. You have Bujinkan as part of your web site address for students to find, but won't subject yourself to the direction of the head of the Bujinkan. And no matter how much you may say that you are following in the footsteps of the Bujinkan, you are making excuses to not seek out more instruction from Hatsumi in Japan.

And those are the facts. Fell free to make more excuses. Or maybe just talk about stick techniques instead of how you think your system is so much better than the Bujinkan. Gee, how did that get into yet another thread?


----------



## Dale Seago (Jul 8, 2004)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Really? What is "The Right background"?



Best response I can give you is to point you toward this thread, Basic Requirements For The Job, started by one of our directors at another forum. (His occasional comments about "ninjas" are tongue in cheek -- he's well aware that he has some Booj folks working for him.)

As far as the job-specific training he talks about is concerned, the current "company standard" is this program presented by our International Training Group. You can download the pretty .pdf brochure on the right, or go to the "Modules" links underneath that and click on the (+) signs for more complete information on each section.

We not only put our own agents through this, but the training program is open to others as well (frankly, it also helps us identify good people we might like to have working for us).


----------



## Enson (Jul 8, 2004)

apart from the hanbo does anyone use or train with escrima too?
oh wait dr. roley made this political again. he should run for office. hee hee!


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## heretic888 (Jul 8, 2004)

> oh wait dr. roley made this political again. he should run for office. hee hee!



Don didn't make it "political" (whatever that's supposed to mean). 

The poster that decided to state how his/her system is SOOOOO much better than the Bujinkan did. This used to happen all the time at e-budo, and it usually centered around 2 or 3 individuals bringing the issue up again and again.

Laterz.


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## Enson (Jul 8, 2004)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> Don didn't make it "political" (whatever that's supposed to mean).
> 
> The poster that decided to state how his/her system is SOOOOO much better than the Bujinkan did. This used to happen all the time at e-budo, and it usually centered around 2 or 3 individuals bringing the issue up again and again.
> 
> Laterz.


congrats on your black belt in the forum heretic888.


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## heretic888 (Jul 8, 2004)

> congrats on your black belt in the forum heretic888.



*looks around* Whoa, hey!! Where'd that come from?? LOL.  :ultracool 

Oh, and thanks.  :asian:


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## Dale Seago (Jul 8, 2004)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Really? What is "The Right background"?



A little follow-up, just released last night on the employee e-mail system:



> July 7, 2004
> 
> The Steele Foundation is a global provider of a broad range of specialized risk management and training services that are designed to mitigate loss through customized and flexible solutions supported by our unmatched professional expertise.
> 
> ...



The course, BTW, is 14 straight days (including weekends) of very intensive work, averaging 10-12 hours per day; total cost around $3,400 (I don't have the exact figure handy, could be a skosh more) if the 2-day firearms course is included.


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## Cryozombie (Jul 8, 2004)

Dale Seago said:
			
		

> Best response I can give you is to point you toward this thread, Basic Requirements For The Job,



Ah, so they are looking for Protective training for over there not military. I asked cuz a friend who fought in Desert Storm was talking about finding a group to hook up with and go back over there for the cash.

Enson, 

I have not USED escrima in years and years and years, but we have done a small amount of "Anti-escrima" recently.  Mostly because I asked about it in class one day, we spent about 30 minutes on it.


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## Dale Seago (Jul 8, 2004)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Ah, so they are looking for Protective training for over there not military. I asked cuz a friend who fought in Desert Storm was talking about finding a group to hook up with and go back over there for the cash.



For that, a military background is VERY helpful (over there we're protecting individual executives, facilities, transport convoys, etc., etc., and these things are run like military team operations) but may not be enough in itself. The agent in the photo, for instance, is a Desert Storm vet with previous time in the area who has ALSO done EP work for Steele for the past two or three years. We sent him to Iraq for 3 months earlier this year, and he's just leaving again this week for a month in Saudi Arabia.

You're not the first person here on the forum to ask about this stuff, but I should stop cluttering up this thread with it; so if anyone else wants to know more, just e-mail me at dseago@wwSteele.com


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## ronhughen (Jul 8, 2004)

r.severe said:
			
		

> Whoa! Ralph has a Mini-Me!
> 
> Now now Jay.. don't be rude.


Im not sure rude is the right word . . . but it sure was not very mature . . . or professional. Well, It did not bug me that much . . . we are trying to have a serious conversation and invite some intelligent argument. That kind of thing seems to be an attempt to distract the focus of the conversation. I see it for what it really is.


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## ronhughen (Jul 8, 2004)

Airyu@hotmail.com said:
			
		

> Way back at the Wimberly Texas TaiKai, Brian sensei first introduced me to the Kukishinden ryu bojutsu!!!. Last year, at the Sayoc Kali Sama Sama, my student and I did a full contact wooden naginata vs sword demo! Ill have to add some clips up to my site, most people had never seen a demo done like this. In the early 80s I use to Okinawan style rokushakubojutsu fight with boxing gloves, and some headgear on. Getting hit really rocked your clock!!


I few years ago I made a pair of sparring rokushakubos using a five-foot, light rattan core, wrapped it in foam pipe insulation, heavily padded the ends with high density foam, and wrapped the whole thing in my favorite wonder material . . . duct tape.  The looked kinda like giant Q-tips.  I was partially inspired by some things they had on a TV show called American Gladiators.  They were really fun, and actually pretty hard to hurt your self or someone else with.  I used to have a bunch of 13 and 14 year old students and they loved going at each other with them.  When I was living in Dallas a big guy (ok, he was actually  . . . fat) fell on one and broke it (until then I did not know you could break rattan).  I need to make another set of those . . . 



I like sparring with padded weapons more than regular weapons while wearing armor and hockey gloves . . . I dislike the restricted movement of the armor and the gloves make it so hard to hold onto the weapon . . .  I like the more natural hand feeling using padded weapons . . . as I get older I feel more like not being as rough as I used to . . . trying to be nicer to the body


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## ronhughen (Jul 8, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Does not matter. I have heard the same from others like Brian McCarthy and such. The fact remians that you advertise as a Bujinkan dojo when you are not part of the orginization. Dale already dealt with the rules about that. I will just point out that what you are doing is like working at a McDonald's and then going out and opening your own restraut using the same name.


:idunno: Hmmmm, with my completely outsider perspective, it sems like you guys are going to run a lot of good people out of your organization.  Why?  Steve sensei seemed to say earlier that he had simply let his membership slide because he was busy.  Mr. Roley, are you saying he should not be welcome as a member if he catches up on the dues?  Why so rigid?  He has been "legit" in the past, and I suppose that is why he has used the BJK name for his school?  What does it matter if a senior member, with years of membership, pays periodic dues a little late?  Are you looking for reasons to expell people?  If so, Why?

Sorry, I am just generally put off by the way our modern culture places so much importance on arbitrary things like deadlines . . . as if they are actually meaningful . . . I would think there is a lot more meaning in having really good people as members fo an organization . . . so dues slip a month or two here or there . . . really, whats the big deal?

Just my opinion . . .


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## Jay Bell (Jul 8, 2004)

> Im not sure rude is the right word . . . but it sure was not very mature . . . or professional. Well, It did not bug me that much . . . we are trying to have a serious conversation and invite some intelligent argument. That kind of thing seems to be an attempt to distract the focus of the conversation. I see it for what it really is.



Do you really take yourself so seriously?  You poor thing.  Why would I distract the focus of the thread?  The point was that reading your posts, they could have been written by Ralph.  Same general type of outlook.

And to answer your question, chief....no....the point of being a student isn't to clone your teacher.


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## r.severe (Jul 8, 2004)

Well Jay, you're being pretty rude.
Do you even know Ron sensei?
Why would you be so rude?

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## Don Roley (Jul 9, 2004)

ronhughen said:
			
		

> :idunno: Hmmmm, with my completely outsider perspective, it sems like you guys are going to run a lot of good people out of your organization.  Why?  Steve sensei seemed to say earlier that he had simply let his membership slide because he was busy.



But in 
this post you said this,




> But if you guys are going to get so bent out of shape about Ralph, why are you not also upset by others that ARE handing out BJK ranks but do not have the precious shioshikai card . . . if you are going to play Gestapo of the Bujinkan, you should be consistent and go after all those bad people . . . I haven't been over to the Kutaki site for some time, as I have let lapse my Shidoshikai card...(beat me now...I have been busy!!) (Steve Lefebvre, Airyu . . . from the thread stick techniques).



It is hardly consistent, and not very ethical, to first tell us that we should be going after Steve and then complain about how we are. It was your post talking about people who give out ranks in the Bujinkan despite not having a shidoshikai card and mentioning Steve's post that started me looking at the fact that he was using to Bujinkan symbol without being a current member for at least 6-7 months.


----------



## KenpoTess (Jul 9, 2004)

* MOD NOTE-

Guys.. This is getting totally silly.. Take the JUVENILE nonsense off line.. Topic is  Ninjitsu Stick Techniques.. Keep it There~!!

~Tess
-MT S. MOD-
*


Non Mod Note-

:btg:


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## ronhughen (Jul 9, 2004)

Ahhhh, gooood Mr. Roley (I don't know anything about you or your place in any organization . . . if you are a BJK-er, or what . . . you don't supply any info in your profile . . . so I don't really know who I am talking to  . . .),

I was surely expecting somone to bring this up.  I am aware of what I said earlier, but I did not say I thought it was a good idea, or ultimately a productive way of solving a problem to hassle people that way, just that if you were going to badger Ralph shihan, you should be consistant and badger the others as well.  Are you aware of who the others are?  Other than Ralph and Steve? . . . are you going to go after all of them?  My actual attitude, if I were someone that COULD have any influence, would be rather than excomunicate them, I would encourange them to become current, or if they don't want to find out what they have on their minds . . . are their problems  (and a senior member that decides to quit should be percived as a problem) . . . maybe there are some real issues and real solutions could come out of such a process.  But, I'm a total outsider, so don't have any input with the "insiders" . . . I just see from the outside that there appear to be some problems . . . my experience with problems is that they are not usually one-sided.  Everybody is different . . . especially here in the USA . . . and everyone has something to contribute to the whole . . . Ralph shihan and Steve sensei would not be the levels they are without having shown somone in power that they are actually really wonderful people.  Are you going to investigate everybody that's late now and kick them all out?

One question I have is who are you to be such a cop "looking into" whether people are current or not?  Like I said, I don't have any idea who I'm talking to.  I also asked that if Steve sensei were to bring his dues current would he be considered totally legit again?  If not, why not? (or worded another way . . . if he is out there being good, teaching good, doing good for the system, why would anybody want to just boot him out symply because he got behind on his dues?)

Even the IRS lets me pay my taxes late, I just get a little penalty.

Anybody want to get back to talking about sticks??


----------



## Flatlander (Jul 9, 2004)

Sure!  I just recieved my copy of Trankada, the Ties That Bind, by Senior Master Dan Anderson, which covers a multitude of Modern Arnis stick locking and trapping techniques, as well as a plethora of emptyhand locking techniques.  On first glance, looks like a great book!  It's not Ninjutsu, but it's stickwork.


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## ronhughen (Jul 9, 2004)

Jay Bell said:
			
		

> Do you really take yourself so seriously?


I'm not sure what you mean by "so seriously".  Please explain.



			
				Jay Bell said:
			
		

> You poor thing.


I guess I need to know more about you to really decide whether I should feel poor or not . . . 



			
				Jay Bell said:
			
		

> And to answer your question, chief....no....the point of being a student isn't to clone your teacher.


Chief, eh?  I bet you call everybody "Chief" (I call everybody "baby").

Well, I did not say I was a clone of Ralph shihan, but I do believe that a sincere student will, at least in the begining, try to very closely immulate his/her teacher . . . . Our attitues are similar because one is attracted to a teacher that is someone they want to be like . . . so, you have actually compemented me saying that I have become similar enough to him that you think I am his clone . . . thank you!

And, getting back to the subject of sticks . . . when I was a youngin' I was particularly impressed with the fantastic skill and control of the rokushakubo of a Mr. Ralph Severe.  If you have not seen him with one of those you will not appreciate what I am saying, and will pop up with comments like "oh look Ralph has a mini-me" . . .  those that have seen him with a long bo know what I mean (he has tapes . . . so anybody has the ability to see what I mean).  So, inspired, I trained with all the different sticks for years, learning each more and more . . . later coming to realize that the skills one learns with basic stick training are the same skill one needs for more advanced work with things like bladed weapons (and I nelieve that a studnet should not even pick up a sword without a lot of hanbo, jo and rokushakubo training and skill).  Even use of other things like flexible weapons is based on the foot and body work one developes in the early rokushakubo forms.  When I first started playing with a sword, it felt familiar, natural.


----------



## ronhughen (Jul 9, 2004)

flatlander said:
			
		

> Sure! I just recieved my copy of Trankada, the Ties That Bind, by Senior Master Dan Anderson, which covers a multitude of Modern Arnis stick locking and trapping techniques, as well as a plethora of emptyhand locking techniques. On first glance, looks like a great book! It's not Ninjutsu, but it's stickwork.


Speaking of books . . . anybody ever read a book called "The Unfettered MInd" by Takuan Soho?  A buddy of mine just sent it to me . . . he must think its good . . . I'm about to open it . . . its subtitled . . . "Writings of the Zen Master to the Sword Master".


----------



## r.severe (Jul 10, 2004)

A lot of students in stick arts use wood or ratan.. 
I personally like lexan or delrin.
They just last forever... well it would seem.

The major problem with stick sparring is the injuries to the shoulders...
Everything else can be covered really easy.
I use Fist helmets with a steel cage for a face guard, baseball shin and knee cap protectors, heavy lacrose gloves, and elbow pads... at times students wear forarm pads too.
This ads to a lot of protection but not so much that it stps flow or a good feeling of the stick...
This is a true stick being used.. not a padded one.. for the hobbyist Budoka !
Be careful...

How do you use protection during sparring with sticks.?

ralph severe, kamiyama


----------



## Don Roley (Jul 10, 2004)

KenpoTess said:
			
		

> * MOD NOTE-
> 
> Guys.. This is getting totally silly.. Take the JUVENILE nonsense off line.. Topic is  Ninjitsu Stick Techniques.. Keep it There~!!
> 
> ...



Well, it did not take long for people to start ignoring that directive.


----------



## ronhughen (Jul 10, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Well, it did not take long for people to start ignoring that directive.


It does seem like we are going back to talking about sticks . . . c'mon . . . say something about sticks . . .


----------



## Don Roley (Jul 10, 2004)

I seem to not be the only person who dislikes these little off-topic jabs and promotion in the middle of other topics.

But here is something that many Bujinkan members will find informative and perhaps alarming.

Years ago, I got a really, really nice rokushakubo. I am talking drool city. I brought it in to the dojo I was going to and played with it before class. The teacher saw it and talked to me, noting my interest in bojutsu. So he started teaching me bojutsu from the beggining.

I did a very, very basic thing that I had learned and he stopped me and corrected me. I stammered and said that the dojo I went to in America taught me the incorrect way and I had never heard any complaint from anyone else. He chuckled and said that he originally learned bojutsu from a teacher who is no longer in the Bujinkan and who used to do a lot of seminars in America. But one day when he performed the technique in front of the boss, he was corrected by him. I have tried the new way, it makes a lot more sense than the way I used to do it.

That was just the beggining of a lot of eye opening experiences. I dare say that a lot of what people think they know about the Bujinkan way of using a stick is not the same as things are done in Japan. If any Bujinkan member cares to mention it to me while they visit here in Japan, I will point it out and point them in the direction of the teacher who pointed out this very, very important and basic point. There are many other things they should learn if they are serious about getting the best information they can on the subject of bojutsu, but the type of stuff does not lend itself well to the written word and I can't (won't) post pictures.


----------



## KenpoTess (Jul 10, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Well, it did not take long for people to start ignoring that directive.




True enough.. though I'm seeing some Stick talk 
Good thing too.. cuz I am heading to a Blues Fest today and don't want to have to 'worry bout you guys'   so Be good ~! 

~Me


----------



## ronhughen (Jul 10, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Years ago, I got a really, really nice rokushakubo. I am talking drool city.


I've beenmaking my own sticks for years . . . there's just something more  . . . persoanla about a weapon you make youreslf.  If I don't make it completely I usually do something that makes it persaonal and distinctive.  

Well, I jsut got the power tools to make "drool city" sticks . . . I'm interested in making them and selling them.  But until now I've never been convinced I could make them in a short enough time to sell them for a price that is worth my while . . . I'd be surprised if anybody would spend $150 - $200 for a rokushakubo, no matter how nice it was.  But now I have the tools to make the process MUCH less labor intensive ( I've actually bought the tools because I am fixing up my 100 year old victorian house myself so THAAT justifies the tools), so I think I can make a really, really nice stick for fifty bucks, possibly less . . . . I actually like octagons (though I can alos make round, even oval) and with my new planer . . . I should be able to mill one to a near finishable smoothness in about fiftee minutes . . . then I soak in in linseed oil for about two weeks . . . let it dry for another two weeks, buff with steel wool . . . it works for me!

Some like to use tung oil . . . I never really have . . . anybody know what tung oil is?

Anybody else make theirr own weapons?


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## Don Roley (Jul 10, 2004)

It isn't the tools or the craftmanship that makes a good rokushakubo "drool city." It is the right wood that has been raised in the correct manner. Take a tough wood that has been raised in a cold climate so that it grows slow and densely. You can pick up mine and just feel the strength of the thing. It is so dense and tough I have sometimes dented other sticks in simple drills without a scratch on mine.

But of course, there is only so much you can do with a good tool like the stick if you don't know the correct manner of use. And a lot of what I have seen being spread overseas is not what I saw in my weekly classes on the rokushakubo.


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## ronhughen (Jul 10, 2004)

. . . I like to make my own . . . "nice sticks" . . . my bashers are just what I can pick up cheap usually . . . I break a lot of sticks . . .


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## ronhughen (Jul 11, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> It is the right wood that has been raised in the correct manner.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Don Roley (Jul 13, 2004)

Since we are talking abotu bojutsu, I thought I would pass along my opinions on a tape on bojutsu from Moti Navi.

I got this tape shortly after I started learning bojutsu from a Japanese instructor. I was excited and wanted every supplementary source I could get to help me absorb the information I was being shown every week. I thought that the experience of a tenth dan and the "innovations" he promised would give me something to build on.

I was very disapointed.

I should have realized that "innovations" really are possible when you have _actual combat experience_ with a weapon. And today the chances of getting into a combat with a two meter long stick are rather rare.

(I have seen people try to claim that they have had life or death struggles with swords, shuriken, etc- but when asked for proof they all refuse and everyone laughs at them.)

Sparring is not actual combat experience. So where would Navi have gotten experience worthy of making the small changes as part of his "innovations?" Actually, his biggest _deliberate_ change seems to be just stringing a few kata together so that you go immediatly into one after you finish another. I am sure you can do that on your own and do not need to spend money on this tape to get the secret.

But the most distressing thing was that I was being shown things every week by a Japanese teacher on how to use the bo at the time. He was very insistent that I do not have any bad habits or do anything wrong from the beggining. So imagine my shock/dispair/ annoyance when I saw Moti Navi doing the same things that my Japanese teacher was telling me not to do because they were wrong and developed bad habits.

I have since thought about the matter and wonder how Moti Navi learned bojutsu. He most definatly did not learn it from a Japanese teacher like I did. If we went over three bo kata a night it was a busy night. The teacher stood over us and corrected what we did, not letting anything by that did not meet his standards. We would go over stuff a few weeks later so he could check our progress and catch any mistakes before they became bad habits. This only happened when there were only a few students in the room and he could help us all. In other words, it was a slow, deliberate process and someone who merely visited Japan for a few weeks could only get a few kata, not the entire set in the Kukishin style.

Moti Navi, like most, probably learned from seminars, videos of those seminars or from teachers that learned at seminars and from video. There are things you can learn from sources like that, but you do not get the technical points that make the traditional kata so fantastic. You do not get the hands- on corrections that eliminate the small habits I saw in the tape.

In short, considering the limited amount of knowledge most Bujinkan teachers have about the traditional katas, I suppose that many people would not realize the problems with this tape. But if you want to learn the art fully, you should seek out a competent instructor while in Japan and ask them to show you what they can. If they can only show a handfull of kata 100 percent correctly, but happy with that until you can get back again. Don't feel you have to learn all the kata from videos, etc. This art does take a while to learn, it is worth learning correctly. There are a few students of the teacher I learned from who have moved back to their countries. I am sure they are spreading the vcorrect information slowly. You just have to find the guys who lived in Japan and know the subject or come here yourself and learn it.


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## r.severe (Jul 14, 2004)

I heard someone say this.......
"And today the chances of getting into a combat with a two meter long stick are rather rare."

I can speak for my experience...
I have been in about 7 fights with a long staff.. 5 to 7 feet long.. and well into 100 sparring matches...
I know the last fight I got into was with tobak toyok.. in 1997 with a weapon.. if asked when the last time I went to the post with a weapons fight.. that's what I would say...

Can't speak for anyone else.. not even the soke.

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## Jay Bell (Jul 14, 2004)

I'll take the bait..

Ralph, are you claiming that you have been in street fights with sticks?  And if so, would there be some sort of documentation of some sort....maybe a police report of some kind?


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## Airyu@hotmail.com (Jul 14, 2004)

Hello Everyone,

It seems we are getting back on course!!

I cannot speak for Shihan Ralph, but I have used a 3ft, 4ft, and Kali sticks in several altercations. There are no records of this, as I didn't stick around to fill out any police reports......The 4 ft incident was a reminder in class to watch out for visitors with an agenda!!

Mr. Roley,

It is great to have correction on the various kata from a qualified source!! Do you or the Japanese Shihan spar with any of the kata?

Steve Lefebvre, Airyu

www.Bujinkandojo.net


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## ronhughen (Jul 14, 2004)

Mr. Roley



I think that was a very thoughtful post and critique of the Moti Nativ tape. I agree with some of what you said about the quality of the information on the tape, but I make a strong effort in my life to take from everything what is useful, discard that which is not. Was there nothing you found you could learn from the tape? 



I think it is very cool that you have the opportunity to learn from so many instructors in Japan that you feel are very good. If I have the chance I will get to Japan, but will most certainly not live there. If you dont mind, I do have some questions about some of your comments.



And today the chances of getting into a combat with a two meter long stick are rather rare.



Well, I actually almost always have either a rokushakubo or jo with me when I walk my dogs at the park or on the street and when I hike in the mountains (I also almost always have a pistol and often a tanto). Would you not agree that if I happen to get in a fight and have my bo with me I will probably use it? (I carry both the rokushakubo and the jo in my car, and practice taking them out quickly so I can do it if I have to . . . I also keep a pistol and a couple of good blades in the car that are all at easy reach while I am driving and I practice getting them out from their storage places while sitting in the drivers seat). I also think that just having something like a six-foot stick (and two dogs) with me are visible clues to somebody not to mess with me, so I am probably avoiding confrontations by having these. Also, have you considered that things you do with a six-foot stick would apply to other things you may pick-up in the heat of battle . . . a broom, a shovel, things like that (Jackie Chan in his movies shows this sort of thing all the time)?



I dont think it is likely that I will get into a fight with a sword unless someone breaks into my house, and I run out of ammo in my pistol(s) and shotgun . . . but I suppose there is a possibility I would have to pick up the sword and use it . . . Shuriken training seems very practical since they are easy to carry, and the skills one develops by such training also applies to other throwing things, like rocks, etc. Musashi said the true value of sword fencing cannot be understood within the confines of sword fencing. Dont you agree that the training we are engaged in extends beyond the specific use of a two-meter stick, sword, or shuriken?



(I have seen people try to claim that they have had life or death struggles with swords, shuriken, etc- but when asked for proof they all refuse and everyone laughs at them.) . . . But if you want to learn the art fully, you should seek out a competent instructor while in Japan and ask them to show you what they can.





Personally, the only times I have had the possibility of being in a streetfight I have managed to walk away from it without actually fighting. Ralph shihan claims to have combat experience . . . and about his sue of rokushakubo Hatsumi sensei stated publicly that Ralph is a genius and a master technician, that he does things as if he were in combat. If you have not seen him (even on tape) working with a rokushakubo can you really apply to him and defend a statement like considering the limited amount of knowledge most Bujinkan teachers have about the traditional katas, I suppose that many people would not realize the problems with this tape? Can you give us some specifics about who you are talking about as having limited knowledge? Or, are you saying that simply because someone is NOT Japanese they cannot KNOW these things? From what Ive been reading there is an aversion in Japan to focusing on combat applications of these techniques favoring the art side more. My question would be how can one know what is exactly right if not putting it to the test of combat? Or near combat, like sparring? What is it about being Japanese that makes it more possible to know stuff. Dont the forms themselves act as tools for the student practicing it to learn whats right? I feel I have learned, or become enlightened about some of what is right by hitting things with the stick . . . when you contact an object like a maki wara you feel in your body when its right or wrong. Do you guys hit things with sticks in Japan, and if you do dont you agree you can feel the difference between right and wrong? Dont you agree that the main factor as to whether someone learns the right way or not is a function of how hard the individual works on it? Everything that is known HAD to be discovered by someone prior to the enlightened person passing it on to a student as a teacher. Does this not indicate that we can learn in ways other than having a Japanese teacher tell us these things?



Sparring is not actual combat experience. 



True, because combat is trying to kill the other guy before he kills you, in sparring we try not to kill each other . . . so sparring has some elements of combat, more than merely practicing forms, with much less chance of someone getting dead. Im thinking that sparring is still very valuable practice for combat, if you are practicing these skills for the possibility that you will have the need to use them to save your life, does it not make sense to to things in practice that come as close to reality as possible?



I have since thought about the matter and wonder how Moti Navi learned bojutsu. He most definatly did not learn it from a Japanese teacher like I did. 



So, if a person were to learn it from a non-japanese teacher, or on their own through diligent practice and research, and learn it correctly, would you say that that knowledge is not valid because it was not learned from a Japanese teacher? That is sort of the impression I am getting from what you are saying.



In an earlier post I asked you about who you are, because I simply dont know, but I read your posts and you seem to talk as if you know a lot. You also imply others do not know something or as much as you because they dont train in Japan, yet Im not sure if you have any direct knowledge or familiarity of those you are implying are so lacking. I would like to know more about you so I can decide whether I can believe what you are saying, whether you actually know enough about what you are talking about to be saying these things (such as saying  . . . instructors having limited knowledge). I personally try to learn from everything, and everyone, but I feel it is important to know where those I am learning from are coming from, you understand that, dont you? 



You also implied that I dont make good sticks without any knowledge about my sticks. I am curious what you base such an attitude on (most of the Japanese teaching I am familiar with promote that students should be humble, and not bragging).



Thank you.


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## Kreth (Jul 14, 2004)

ronhughen said:
			
		

> From what Ive been reading there is an aversion in Japan to focusing on combat applications of these techniques favoring the art side more.


Actually, I think it's more a case of the Japanese instructors not wanting to teach some techniques to people they don't know personally. You can see quite a difference in Hatsumi Sensei's movement at a Tai Kai, for example, and in a class at Honbu. I've seen a similar difference between public and private classes with the Shihan in Japan. I think the Japanese are very careful about what they teach, and whom they teach it to.

Jeff


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## ronhughen (Jul 14, 2004)

Jay Bell said:
			
		

> I'll take the bait..
> 
> Ralph, are you claiming that you have been in street fights with sticks? And if so, would there be some sort of documentation of some sort....maybe a police report of some kind?


To my knowlege he does not have a police record, but I did get to witness him deal with a guy that came into the school talking a bunch of poop, and being exgtreemly challenging . . . Ralph shihan tried to ignore the guy, but he was persistent . . . after the guy signed all the appropriate papers, they went at each other with nunchaku.  Poor guy!

-Mini


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## ronhughen (Jul 14, 2004)

Kreth said:
			
		

> Actually, I think it's more a case of the Japanese instructors not wanting to teach some techniques to people they don't know personally. You can see quite a difference in Hatsumi Sensei's movement at a Tai Kai, for example, and in a class at Honbu. I've seen a similar difference between public and private classes with the Shihan in Japan. I think the Japanese are very careful about what they teach, and whom they teach it to.
> 
> Jeff


Yes, this makes sense, I know I am selective about who, where and when I show stuff to.

So, can an insider tell me anything about the nature of combat oriented training in Japan (of course, without divulding any secrets we cannot say in public :supcool: )


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## Kreth (Jul 14, 2004)

ronhughen said:
			
		

> Yes, this makes sense, I know I am selective about who, where and when I show stuff to.
> 
> So, can an insider tell me anything about the nature of combat oriented training in Japan (of course, without divulding any secrets we cannot say in public :supcool: )


Well, I wouldn't call myself an "insider." I've seen this comment about "no sparring in Japan" floating around for a while, and I wanted to point out that I have seen a definite difference in the way the Shihan train with you once they get to know you. I'm sure this is much more the case for Don or one of the other Japan residents.

And yes, I agree. My classes are by invitation only. I don't run a formal dojo. This serves two purposes: I don't have to deal with the immature college wannabe badboys running around this town, and I have a good idea of who I'm training with and how far we can take it.

Jeff


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## r.severe (Jul 14, 2004)

Jeff you stated, "You can see quite a difference in Hatsumi Sensei's movement at a Tai Kai, for example, and in a class at Honbu."

I have a very indept colection of Japanese classroom tapes.
I really see little difference in taikai, daikomyosai and normal classroom footage persay. The training is very light and there is no feeling of 'real time' fighting stress during the footage that I have. But this might be because the Japanese knew I would be watching the tapes. 
One point is I have NEVER heard (or seen) of sparring from any Japanese instructor in any tapes, personally or otherwise. 

Fights are normally not seen or taped when you are attacked in a street fight. As for the question on if I was taped, seen or stood outside a police station during a fight or any kind is totally funny and an immature question. I will not answer that one.

But I will say my first one was at the age of 10 years old against a young man with a 4 foot stick. The second was with a person with a ax handle. So what? So do and some don't.. I did.. did that, past and gone..

I believe the best thing to do is.. if you have something to show then show it.. stop telling people about it.. go to the post if need be. Hey make a video tape of yourslf and get it out to show your skills and help others.. if not then what's the big deal about others doing so? If you are NOT willing to go through the trouble of doing it yourself and always talk about dad, your brother, sister, the guy next door, some book, a man on a video tape or some Japanese grand booba... then what can you really say? Nothing really because you are not the one doing.. you are watching it being done..

There is no problem putting on some armor (or not) and sparring with sticks..
Do it or just talk about others doing it..

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## Jay Bell (Jul 14, 2004)

> Fights are normally not seen or taped when you are attacked in a street fight. As for the question on if I was taped, seen or stood outside a police station during a fight or any kind is totally funny and an immature question. I will not answer that one.



Having trouble reading?  I asked for documentation, meaning proof, that you have fought with sticks.  I said nothing about standing outside of a police station.  But, much like your plethora-list of arts that you have videos of, claiming to study, I guess we'll just have to take your word for it.


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## ronhughen (Jul 14, 2004)

Jay Bell said:
			
		

> Having trouble reading? I asked for documentation, meaning proof, that you have fought with sticks. I said nothing about standing outside of a police station. But, much like your plethora-list of arts that you have videos of, claiming to study, I guess we'll just have to take your word for it.


Maybe Mr. Bell has trouble reading . . . I said I witnessed Ralph fight a guy with sticks . . . that's a kind of proof, right?  Aside form someone saying they saw it, its true you will not find the kind of documentation you are seeking.  Either you need to be more open minded, or resign yourself to the fact that you will not be concretely convinced that Ralph has been in a real fight with a stick (and jsut because you cannot be convinced does not prove it has not happened).


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## Jay Bell (Jul 14, 2004)

Uhm...I read fine.  I was clarifying my original question, because *RALPH* seems to have misread it.  You answered it just fine.


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## r.severe (Jul 14, 2004)

Jay, if I were asked where the air is by a child.. I would walk away.

I would like for you to prove you are in fact you and have experience living.
But what a waste of time. Much like giving you an answer. Waste of time.

I hope somehow you try to find some peaceful meaning in what I am saying before you twsit this into a vortex of BS.

Now Jay, do you have something to add to 'stick fighting' or 'stick techniques' or are you just posting to get a rise out of everyone?

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## Jay Bell (Jul 14, 2004)

If it walks like a Dux and acts like a Dux...


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## Don Roley (Jul 14, 2004)

Just as an aside here,

If you get into a confrontation involving weapons, in most areas you must report it to the police department. Even in cases where you need not, because of the chance that the other side will come back and report their side of the story, you should go to the police as soon as possible.

And anytime two people agree to something, it is not combat but rather sport like the NHB.

So a police report of an incident is quite a natural thing to expect when some sort of weapon is involved. If there is none, alarm bells go off the same way they do when I read things by Frank Dux and Ashida Kim.



> Well, I wouldn't call myself an "insider." I've seen this comment about "no sparring in Japan" floating around for a while, and I wanted to point out that I have seen a definite difference in the way the Shihan train with you once they get to know you. I'm sure this is much more the case for Don or one of the other Japan residents.



Well, yes. One of the main advantages of going to a Japanese shihan week after week is that they can set things up in an ABCDEF type of progression. You learn "B" only after you have gotten down the neccasary foundation you get in "A" down perfect. When visitors pull in, the teachers rarely knows even if they will see the person ever again in their class. One of my teachers summed it up that he can be real specific when there is only live- in students, but he has to give people things that they can work on and explore on their own if they are merely visiting.

And Hatsumi used to do sparring a long time ago. A student once used me as a translator because he had heard about it. The Japanese teacher said that it was true that they used to do sparring, but it was largely dropped after Hatsumi found it was causing bad habits in the students.

He stressed that in the old days Hatsumi would _occasionally_ bring together the students with _perfect_ taijutsu who _showed up to class every week for months on end_  and _while Hatsumi watched_ the students would go at it.

Then when there were many foriegn students coming in for short periods of time he found that the ones who were sparring in their home countries, did not have perfect taijutsu and were not within his range of corrections were actually developing bad habits.

By bad habits I think he means things that are good for sparring, but bad for actual combat. I have seen this happen with stick sparring at Ayase. The guys who Hatsumi called up to demonstrate free form in front of the class were under great pressure to hit the other guy. I could see that most of them were using the stick not like a heavy oak jo, but rather as a PVC pipe covered in padding. The were so intent on hitting the other guy and not be embarrassed in front of the entire class that their realism went out the window and they were content with taps rather than blows that could have done damage. And their footwork, etc all showed bad habits that crept out under stress. The guys who continued to use the stick like a jo rather than a PVC pipe lost to those who did not.

And since you fight as you train, all these bad habits would be reinforced if they had been done frequently.

I have had sessions where I did not know what was coming at me in my regular classes in Japan. I would not call them sparring since there was little emphisis on who won. (Who cares how many times you "win"- it only goes to feed the ego.) More often, one or more guys were the agressors and one guy was on the defensive. My Japanese teacher watches these infrequent session like a hawk and for the next few weeks afterwards will develop drills and such that he wants us to do to try to repair the bad habits we show.

But the biggest difference may be that if the teacher knows what you can take from long, close relationships, he knows just how far he can push you without pushing you too far. I have litterally thought I was going to die a few times in class. It wasn't during any type of sparring. It was during kata practice with weapons. I do not want others (i.e. 12 year old wanna-be ninja) to duplicate this stuff on their own so I will leave off the details, but the best adreneline stress training I have gone through has been during kata practice with a senior Japanese student. I really learned to deal with the stress of combat and to overcome the problems that adrenaline in the bloodstream can make. Later sparring in other arts were very, very tame by comparison. No matter how eager the other guy was to hurt me, it did not phase me as much as the kata practice with my senior had.


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## Don Roley (Jul 14, 2004)

Airyu@hotmail.com said:
			
		

> I have used a 3ft, 4ft, and Kali sticks in several altercations. There are no records of this, as I didn't stick around to fill out any police reports......



I do not think there will be a problem as long as you do not expect to be treated as experienced in real fighting. If there is no proof like a police report of the incident, then everyone is in their rights to treat it like it never happened outside of your imagination.

Otherwise, we will see an invasion of the Virtual Sensei again. 

Whenever Frank Dux/ Sojobow shows up and makes claims, we demand proof and when they refuse everyone laughs at them and treats them like a liar. It would not be consistent to let others make claims and then treat them as if they were telling the truth without demanding the same amount of proof we do from Ashida Kim, Ronald Duncan. We make fun of these people because the make claims and refuse to back it up. If no one tries to say that you should listen to them because they are experienced, and then refuse to show proof for that experience, we will be able to keep the peace.


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## r.severe (Jul 14, 2004)

Hey guys, it's ok not to be a fighter or not to have fighting experience.
Don't get mad, upset about it or feel the need to justify yourselves by being a jester. Many in the martial arts don't even know the feeling of a good pounding.. much less a few good poundings..

Just face the truth.
Get on with your life.
It's OK..

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## Don Roley (Jul 15, 2004)

r.severe said:
			
		

> Hey guys, it's ok not to be a fighter



Ah, but you see I am a survivor, not a fighter. Anyone that knows the true meaning of those words will understand.

I do not fight for money, rank, ego or nice little trophies to brag about. If I fight, it is to get home at the end of the day and keep my family safe.

I do not want people to admire me, respect me, call me proffesor/sensei/sifu, give me money or think of me as any kind of a bad ****. I study this art in order to die in bed, either of old age or in the midst of sex. (Prefereble both.)

As I get older, I realize that the best things in life are not as Conan said they were, to see your enemies dead before you and hear the lamanting of their women.

No, for me the true joy in life is to come home, walk my dog, play with my kids and kiss my wife at the end of the day. Caviar and Champagne dreams it is not, but it is a life I fine complete contentment with. I will only fight when I need to do so in order to get home.

If I can run, I have and I will and have felt no shame in doing so.

But if I can't run, I know that I am capable of terrible things in order to see my family again.

The martial arts and the internet is filled with people who need to be thought of as "fighters" and such. Anyone who has met a few _survivors_  is struck by how little they need to crow how dangerous they are. For them, there is nothing to prove. Instead of war stories that they can't back up with proof, they carry around cards of the lawyers they keep on retainer.

Fighter? Who the heck would want to be a fighter? The only thing I am interested in is getting home to see my family. I need to be a survivor in order to do that and that is a hell of a lot different from someone who gets into a ring and/or runs around trying to convince others just how dangerous they are.


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## ronhughen (Jul 15, 2004)

Mr. Roley,

:idunno: I'm sure you don't realize you are doing the same thing you are accusing Ralph shihan of.  You say you don't accept that he is what he says he is because he cannot provide you with "proof", something you have defined in your own terms so that it will be impossible for you to actually be presented with satisfactory proof.  I have asked you essentially for "proof" that substantiats some of the things you say . . . my real question being . . . "is this guy really all he says or is he more of a martial voyer with lofty words but, as is all too common on these kinds of forums, nothing to back it up?" (such inconsistancey is pretty common in the world . . . a doctor friend who is a christian told me the other day "I don't beleive anything I can't actually see" . . . which struck me as odd)  You are quick to take the high ground, put youself on a pedistal above all of us (that's the feeling I get from a lot of your posts), but have not offered anything that I can base any respect on, other than your hard to swallow words.  At least Ralph shihan has information out here for people to see, and pick on if they choose (his website, for example). It's fine that you don't want to be a fighter, I don't really like the idea of fighting either, I have the same sort of attitude about thinking of my self as a runner first, a fighter only if I have to.  But I train with Ralph shihan because I want a teacher with that perspective, someone that knows about it so can direct a training curriculum that might prepare me to deal with a fight if I need to fight.  He isn't trying to convince anyone that he is dangerous (you should read his posts more carefully), just that he has experiences of fighting and those experiences have given him a kind of enlightenment most of the rest of us lack . . . experience based enlightenment is the crux of why you say training with the Japansese is so valuable, right?  So, I don't understand your attitude.

Since you hae tended to avoid or ignore my questions I don't expect you to respond to this one, but I am curious why you seem to really need to "sell" Japan, and the idea that if you don't study in Japan you can't be really learning anything of value?   I have my ideas of why, but I'd like to know what you think.

So, if you won't tell me more about your background and give me some "proof" justifying where your comments come from, I have to put it all into the category of "primadonic pontification", not any kind of expert opinion as you are trying to pass it off.


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## Don Roley (Jul 15, 2004)

ronhughen said:
			
		

> Mr. Roley,
> 
> :idunno: I'm sure you don't realize you are doing the same thing you are accusing Ralph shihan of.  You say you don't accept that he is what he says he is because he cannot provide you with "proof", something you have defined in your own terms so that it will be impossible for you to actually be presented with satisfactory proof.  I have asked you essentially for "proof" that substantiats some of the things you say . . . my real question being . . . "is this guy really all he says or is he more of a martial voyer with lofty words but, as is all too common on these kinds of forums, nothing to back it up?"



No. You see. I do not make claims and then refuse to back them up. You have asked me questions that are similar to what Sharp Phil wrote about in Internet Troll Defense Mechanisms when he wrote the following. 




> WHO ARE YOU TO CHALLENGE ME?
> 
> As I wrote in How To Spot a Virtual Sensei, VTGs and VSs are bullies who believe force is the appropriate solution to every disagreement. Part of the psychology behind this attitude is the logically flawed notion that no criticism is valid unless voiced by someone of higher rank or longer experience. When called on their claims or questioned on their opinions, VTGs and VSs often will demand to know the rank, style, and years of experience possessed by the critic. If this information is provided, the VS or VTG will then dismiss the criticism as coming from someone who is his or her "junior" in the arts. This does not invalidate the criticism, of course  you need not be able to beat someone up, nor need you possess a belt one shade darker, for your opinion to be logically and factually valid  but in the minds of the VS and VTG it is all the rebuttal necessary. Anyone who has ever attended a commercial McDojo has seen this attitude displayed, too, by the small percentage of students strutting about condescending to those whose belts are at least one shade lighter.



I live in Japan. I have trained here for several years. Several people who have verifiable proof to their claims of street encounters know and accept me. I can prove all of this.

Now, if someone tries to make a claim that they have some insight into stick fighting because of personal experience, then it is their responsibility to back those claims up. I can point to and prove my experiences in Japan, etc. I make no other claims. I make no claims to things I am not willing to back up.

No one person has all the possible experiences in combat. As such, we learn form other people's experience when we can. But due to the number of internet frauds and phonies, we need to be vigilent for those that make inflated claims and refuse to back them up. Any encounter involving a weapon should be backed up with something along the line of a police report. And really, I am not willing to give the time of day to anyone who claims to be a experienced street fighter but does not have a lawyer on retainer.


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## Enson (Jul 15, 2004)

ronhughen said:
			
		

> To my knowlege he does not have a police record, but I did get to witness him deal with a guy that came into the school talking a bunch of poop, and being exgtreemly challenging . . . Ralph shihan tried to ignore the guy, but he was persistent . . . after the guy signed all the appropriate papers, they went at each other with nunchaku. Poor guy!
> 
> -Mini


i guess the most sensible thing to present would be those "appropriate papers." in my opinion one trains so they don't have to fight. i like the term "survivor" and i think i will start using it. (you can even play the song while you train. ((song by desiny's child)) i enjoy sparring because it gives you a reality check on how the body moves and bends when applying technique, but i believe form is very important on understanding how your body moves and bends. the thing with stick training is that it doesn't have to be a certain size. i train with all sizes (width, length) because you never know what will be availible. taking a walking stick when you hike is a good idea because you never know when a band of ninja will jump out and get you! hee hee!:jedi1: (joke) but you can get a tree branch off the floor when you are in a park somewhere. i remember seeing this kid (teenager) chasing this other kid with a branch right outside my office window. its all part of the great unknown of real combat. so use bats or golf clubs whatever. whether its a bo, jo, or even dough:whip: (joke)... imo train with it!


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## Kreth (Jul 15, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> use bats or golf clubs whatever.


Sorry, my golf game's bad enough without bent clubs...   

Jeff


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## r.severe (Jul 15, 2004)

Hey maybe you can twist this one too..., it's ok not to be a survivor of many conflicts or not to have survivor experience in street conflicts.
Don't get mad, upset about it or feel the need to justify yourselves by being a jester. Many in the martial arts don't even know the feeling of a good pounding.. much less a few good poundings..

Just face the truth.
Get on with your life.
It's OK..

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## Kreth (Jul 15, 2004)

r.severe said:
			
		

> Hey maybe you can twist this one too...


Um... was that directed at me and my golf club comment?

Jeff


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## Enson (Jul 15, 2004)

Kreth said:
			
		

> Um... was that directed at me and my golf club comment?
> 
> Jeff


i don't know. mr. severe who is going to twist it? i don't quite understand the meaning of it. (not trying to offend) how can you not get mad at not being a survivor? (a real question. not in anyway intended for a harsh rebuttle) my thoughts are if you don't survive you die. and i guess you can't get mad if you're dead. please clarify.
:idunno: 
peace


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## r.severe (Jul 15, 2004)

Donny twist the post ti fit his agenda.
You can change the words and still it reminas the same statement..
Those who have no experience or cannot just sit on the sidelines and yell a lot about those who do have experience and can fight, survive, etc..

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## Don Roley (Jul 15, 2004)

Kreth said:
			
		

> Um... was that directed at me and my golf club comment?



Ok Jeff, you owe me a new monitor. Even with all the amusing puffing up of chests and such you see everyday on the internet, your quick witted remark was the one that caught me with my morning cup of java halfway into a gulp.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 15, 2004)

Gentlemen,
  There have been some concerns with some sniping going on.  Please, keep it professional and take the personal issues elsewhere.

Thank you.


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## Don Roley (Jul 16, 2004)

A thread on thoughts of using an ASP baton in the Bujinkan style.


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## Airyu@hotmail.com (Jul 16, 2004)

Hello Mr. Roley,

The ASP or various collapasable batons fits very nicely with the Budo curriculum, but I disagree with the premise that by combining your current practice with FMA you may have a disjointed protection system. Many techniques from the Filipino arts are similar to Japanese arts. There was a good deal of cross cultural information excahnge in the Southeast asian arts, and Japan also had an influence as well. 

At this year's Sayoc Kali Sama Sama event, Tuhon Tom Kier introduce stick grappling. It was implemented using a 3 ft stick or 28 - 31 in baton as well. What was interesting were the similarities to traditional hanbo techniques taught in the Bujinkan. Many of the techniques can be implemented with the ASP as well, and are well suited for "real world" use.

Train Hard it is the Way!

Steve Lefebvre, Airyu

www.Bujinkandojo.net


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## Don Roley (Jul 16, 2004)

Airyu@hotmail.com said:
			
		

> I disagree with the premise that by combining your current practice with FMA you may have a disjointed protection system.
> 
> (snip some stuff that is not historicially verifiable)
> 
> At this year's Sayoc Kali Sama Sama event, Tuhon Tom Kier introduce stick grappling. It was implemented using a 3 ft stick or 28 - 31 in baton as well. What was interesting were the similarities to traditional hanbo techniques taught in the Bujinkan.



Thank you for your opinion.

It has been my experience that many martial arts have a _superficial_ resemblence to other martial arts. After all, some people say that jujutsu is another form of karate. Anyone who has spent time with both arts will have a different opinion.

In the same way, even though FMA and Bujinkan have some superficial similar moves, my experience has been that there are fundemental differences in the way they evolved and the situations they were created for that make the core of each very, very different. There are similar moves, but the central core and philosophy of each are completely different.

Since I do not want to run more than one operating system on my body's hard dirve, I wish to keep the central core and philosophy of Bujinkan training and merely pick up those things that do not clash on the most basic level with that system. I have seen people try to pick up and choose without a deep level of knowledge and it does not impress me.


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## clayton (Jul 16, 2004)

as much as im hitting myself for this one,,,,,,,,, i have to agree with ralph on this one. i have done some weird things, good and bad. granted i wont talk about them online, but if i did theres no way to back it up. theres no way to back stuff like this up, period. and its silly to argue over it. if you've been mugged or have mugged someone thats expierence on your side. but unless things went worng and you went to the hospitol or had to share a toilet with 10 other dudes then you cannot verify anything. i can see a definate difference in peoples training that have seen bad **** to people that have trained with "operators" but never had to back anything up. or if they did it hasen't been dont many times over. there's a feeling that just isnt there.


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## Don Roley (Jul 16, 2004)

clayton said:
			
		

> but unless things went worng and you went to the hospitol or had to share a toilet with 10 other dudes then you cannot verify anything.



Yes you can. If you talk to the police there will be a police report and you should always talk to the police after a violent incident, especially if there is a weapon involved.

I have a healthy respect for the legal system in America. I fear it. I fear a criminal coming at me with a slimy lawyer almost more than I fear him coming at me with a knife.

Now, let me say that I have pulled weapons on people and forced them to flee and never reported it to the police. I doubt the police would be able to find the guy that fled and they would be more interested in why I was running around with a weapon.

But if you use a weapon on another person, you need to cover your tail. There is a simple reason.

Criminals are scum.

"Well, no duh," a lot of you are saying. But a lot of people seem to be under the impression that a guy that tries to use violence on you will somehow consider lying and using the legal system to get you not honorable enough. WTF?

If someone comes into your place of work and causes trouble, the first thing you need to do is call the police and have them take care of the guy. If trouble breaks out before they arrive, you have it on record that you wanted the police to be there. If there is any violence, you need to get to the police as soon as you can and make a report. This goes double if there is a weapon involved. If you only brandish it on the street and the thug flees, you may be able to not call the police. But if you merely show it to someone in your store/ business and maybe your car, you need to call the police ASAP.

Otherwise, the other guy may just go to the hospital and get documentation for his injuries and then call the cops and give HIS lying story. He might get a few of his friends to conribute. They will probably say that something like they walked into your work and made some comment related to them being Muslim or something and YOU attacked them 'cause you don't like Muslims.

So the police show up at your work/ home and ask to see you. They search the place and find the weapon exactly as the thug said they would. So, they have a one person who has gone to the police and another that seems to be trying to hide the fact. How does that look? Add onto that any injuries the guy has documented and you are in deep, deep trouble.

You may never be charged with a criminal offence, but you may be sued in civil court. Oh yeah- it has happened. There is a police report, injuries documented, etc. Grab a lawyer and try to get as much cash out of the guy who dared stand up to you as you can.

Anyone have trouble believing this can happen in today's America?

I know guys who have had one incident without a police report. I have also known guys who were scum and preyed on other scum when they were young and there was no going to the police. If someone is injured trying to rip off a drug dealer, there may be hospital records but no one is telling the cops.

But the  criminals have criminal records of one sort or another. And the more you play the ods, the more likely the police are going to be involved. Anyone without a criminal record needs to show proof in the form of police reports. Also, I would look weirdly on someone who claims _multiple_ encounters with things like shurikens, swords, etc and refuses to back it up just becasue it is so weird sounding. A good general rule of thumb is that if someone claims to have a vast experience with street fights ask to see the lawyer they have on retainer. Because in America if you have to deal with _serious_ violence you are going to be dealing with the legal system and you need a good lawyer for that.


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## r.severe (Jul 16, 2004)

Yes you can. If you talk to the police there will be a police report and you should always talk to the police after a violent incident, especially if there is a weapon involved.


Clayton, 
People are really strange aren't they..
Hey... some of us live in reality.. some do not.
I'm not sure where this person lives... who ever they seem to be on a forum... who knows in reality...
But from where I'm from.. Mississippi, Tenn and Texico you don't run down to the office at school after you beat someone up.. or take a trip to be put in jail after a fight..
What kind of strange deal would that be?
I wouldn't take that deal.. would you Clayton?

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 16, 2004)

Gentlemen....

Please stick to the technical/historical/etc and leave the personal shots off this site.

Considering this thread is about Sticks...I'd hate to have to reach for one. I'd guess that tanning some bottoms might be an interesting exercize in technique, hmm?

Thank you.


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## Shogun (Jul 16, 2004)

> you don't run down to the office at school after you beat someone up.. or take a trip to be put in jail after a fight..
> What kind of strange deal would that be?
> I wouldn't take that deal.. would you Clayton?


I would. just kidding.



I hate to get into this, but That is a very good point Mr. Severe.


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## clayton (Jul 17, 2004)

i torn between two worlds. so i would have to say it would depend on what the outcome of the situation was. if theres no witnesses and nothing lethal happened(and no camera's) then i might walk on my merry way.  but if something serious happened, then you would have to look at the reprocussions of what could happen if the mugger painted a different story at the hospitol. if something did go bad then i would cover my a$$ and alert the authorities. this is my present mode of thinking. and its not how i used to think.

 now in my youth, this never happened, the last thing i ever thought about was going to the police for anything. i got jumped by 4 guys one time and got pummeled, i just went home. and theres the flip side that isn't cool to talk about online too. but in no situation was the police ever considered. only once did i advise a friend that he needs to turn himself in, but that was under the worst possible events.


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## Don Roley (Jul 17, 2004)

clayton said:
			
		

> if something did go bad then i would cover my a$$ and alert the authorities. this is my present mode of thinking. and its not how i used to think.
> 
> now in my youth, this never happened, the last thing i ever thought about was going to the police for anything. i got jumped by 4 guys one time and got pummeled, i just went home. and theres the flip side that isn't cool to talk about online too.



Important points. When dealing with weapons, you deal with a different legal reality than the fist fights we got into as children. For a start, you should read this page on the legal realities of using violence- _especially_ when using a weapon. There is a link to Ayoob's use of lethal force web page. That is something worth checking out as well.

When you encounter serious violence it is not something to brag about. Your troubles only begin after the last blow is thrown. I have never been arrested charged or spent time in jail, but I have been detained, questioned and fingerprinted because I defended myself. Eventually, I had to get a lawyer to represent me- even though everyone knew I was not guilty of anything. One of the first things a lawyer will tell you is that you do not talk about the case to anyone. Considering just how bad real violence makes you feel, it is not something you want to talk about anyways.

My advice is that if you have to use a weapon, you have to get a lawyer. Finding out about the legal system AFTER you have used a weapon to defend yourself is a big mistake. Research the matter ahead of time. And you better hope to God you really were in the right when the violence went down. If not, you better do your best job of keeping a low profile that you can and try not to call attention to yourself.


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