# Grapplers: Are you still training?



## geezer (Jul 4, 2020)

This is going out to all wrestlers and grapplers of all styles ...since grappling has the most physical contact of any MA.

Our governor here in AZ just shut down all gyms, studios, health clubs, etc. again for at least another month and the police have started giving out citations, up to $2,500 per infraction to show that they are serious.  I'm thinking this latest closure will be probably extended for "the duration" ... i.e. until infection rates drop to near zero, or until there is a vaccine or other really effective treatment for Covid-19. The way it looks now, that would probably be next spring or summer at the earliest.

So ...are any grappling gyms open anywhere? Is anybody still training with a partner at all? Or is everybody just working solo, conditioning , etc.?

And if the gyms are shut _for a year_, will they reopen at all?


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## drop bear (Jul 4, 2020)

Yep. We are open.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jul 4, 2020)

My gym reopened in June, but I’m not back to grappling yet. 

I decided to at least wait until I have a chance to make my annual trips to visit my parents, both of whom would be extremely vulnerable to infection. After that I’m going to take a look at the numbers in order to make a decision on training. The numbers aren’t too bad in Kentucky so far, but the nation-wide trends are not looking good and will likely get worse as re-opening continues and even worse when schools reopen in the fall.


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## Danny T (Jul 4, 2020)

We are doing some standing guard passes and knee on belly to reverse mount and leg lock drills. A lot of single person ground movement drills, ground dummy drills, shoot walking, bridging, shrimping, etc. but no actually wrestling or BJJ.


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## lklawson (Jul 14, 2020)

geezer said:


> This is going out to all wrestlers and grapplers of all styles ...since grappling has the most physical contact of any MA.
> 
> Our governor here in AZ just shut down all gyms, studios, health clubs, etc. again for at least another month and the police have started giving out citations, up to $2,500 per infraction to show that they are serious.  I'm thinking this latest closure will be probably extended for "the duration" ... i.e. until infection rates drop to near zero, or until there is a vaccine or other really effective treatment for Covid-19. The way it looks now, that would probably be next spring or summer at the earliest.
> 
> ...


Ohio has special rules (exemptions) for martial arts.  We also have a total infection of 1/2 of 1% per capita (0.0056).

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 14, 2020)

Tony Dismukes said:


> My gym reopened in June, but I’m not back to grappling yet.
> 
> I decided to at least wait until I have a chance to make my annual trips to visit my parents, both of whom would be extremely vulnerable to infection. After that I’m going to take a look at the numbers in order to make a decision on training. The numbers aren’t too bad in Kentucky so far, but the nation-wide trends are not looking good and will likely get worse as re-opening continues and even worse when schools reopen in the fall.


yeah Georgia is doing bad, but the Georgia Health Department numbers can't be trusted.  They got caught 2 or 3  times trying to manipulate the data so that it looks less damaging.  I saw a chart to day that makes it look like the new cases are going down,  but their are news article stating that Georgia may roll back some of its plans for reopening.   I'm not sure about Kentucky, but with Georgia people should look at the Case count from multiple sources to see which data is wildly different through comparison. I'm not sure how things are now but 2 weeks ago when I went to the groceries a lot of people weren't wearing masks. 

All of this is still surreal at times.  More so the general responses from people than the virus.  Things like COVID parties are beyond me.  But I shouldn't be too surprised I guess with people eating Tide Pods and extreme amounts of cinnamon.


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## lklawson (Jul 14, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> yeah Georgia is doing bad, but the Georgia Health Department numbers can't be trusted.  They got caught 2 or 3  times trying to manipulate the data so that it looks less damaging.  I saw a chart to day that makes it look like the new cases are going down,  but their are news article stating that Georgia may roll back some of its plans for reopening.   I'm not sure about Kentucky, but with Georgia people should look at the Case count from multiple sources to see which data is wildly different through comparison. I'm not sure how things are now but 2 weeks ago when I went to the groceries a lot of people weren't wearing masks.
> 
> All of this is still surreal at times.  More so the general responses from people than the virus.  Things like COVID parties are beyond me.  But I shouldn't be too surprised I guess with people eating Tide Pods and extreme amounts of cinnamon.


One thing to remember is that when you "flatten the curve," the area under the curve remains the same.

Think about it.


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## Danny T (Jul 14, 2020)

lklawson said:


> One thing to remember is that when you "flatten the curve," the area under the curve remains the same.


STOP It! You are talking with sense. STOP THAT!!

And as the curve is flatten the length of curve is increased


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## geezer (Jul 15, 2020)

Danny T said:


> STOP It! You are talking with sense. STOP THAT!! And *as the curve is flattened the length of curve is increased*



^^^ I thought _that_ was the whole point. Try to achieve a slow, _controlled burn_ rather than a _raging inferno_ of infection so that the hospitals and associated healthcare personnel and resources are never overwhelmed. It's that or try to lie low and wait it out until a vaccine or at least a highly effective anti-viral treatment becomes available.

Either way, the current state will drag on until 1. we have a vaccine and/or highly effective antiviral treatments, or 2. most people (perhaps 80%) have gotten the virus and the population at large  develops a "herd immunity".

The trouble with "Covid Parties" approach, encouraging infection and pushing option 2, is that endangers all those at high risk: the elderly, the immunocompromised, those with diabetes, asthma, or other underlying health issues. These people need to be protected and supported while they "shelter in place" for the duration (i.e. until we have a vaccine and/or effective treatment). 

...That means continuing to work at slowing contagion and "flattening the curve". Or... _wearing masks_ in public, washing hands a lot, and _limiting close contact_ with others as much as possible. And that affects us, as martial artists a lot.


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## lklawson (Jul 15, 2020)

geezer said:


> ^^^ I thought _that_ was the whole point. Try to achieve a slow, _controlled burn_ rather than a _raging inferno_ of infection so that the hospitals and associated healthcare personnel and resources are never overwhelmed.


And we've done that.  The point, as you note, is NOT to prevent infections.  The point is to drag out the infections over time so that hospitals aren't overwhelmed.  The same number of people are going to get infected.  ...just stretched out over time instead of clustered all together.  All these PSA's about "Say Home.  Stay SAFE!" are horsedip.  The PSA should actually be, "Stay Home.  Get Infected Later."

The thing is, stats seem to support the suggestion that infections peeked (the top of the curve) in mid-to-late April.  Honestly, at this point, the only reason to "self quarantine" if you're healthy is in the hopes that you can delay your exposure until a vaccine is developed or until everyone else has gotten sick and developed herd immunity.  So "Stay Home" is all about, "My plan is for EVERYONE ELSE to get sick before me."  Which is fine except that it seems like everyone else is being encouraged to make the same plan.  It's like the entire world is going "I don't wanna try it first, you try it first... No you.  No you.  No you."

"Flattening the curve" still means you get sick.  But there's been a concentrated global misunderstanding where people seem to think that if they just follow the healthy self quarantining and "social distancing," then they're going to not get sick.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## geezer (Jul 15, 2020)

geezer said:


> ^^^ I thought _that_ was the whole point. Try to achieve a slow, _controlled burn_ rather than a _raging inferno_ of infection so that the hospitals and associated healthcare personnel and resources are never overwhelmed. It's that or try to lie low and wait it out until a vaccine or at least a highly effective anti-viral treatment becomes available.
> 
> Either way, the current state will drag on until 1. we have a vaccine and/or highly effective antiviral treatments, or 2. most people (perhaps 80%) have gotten the virus and the population at large  develops a "herd immunity".
> 
> ...



You know, if in past years more money had been available to complete the development of vaccines and antiviral therapies for related coronaviruses like Sars and Mers, etc. we would be in a much better position fighting Covid-19 today. I hope the world governments take note. Significant money spent on prevention and preparation is nothing compared to the cost of enduring this pandemic.


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## jobo (Jul 15, 2020)

lklawson said:


> And we've done that.  The point, as you note, is NOT to prevent infections.  The point is to drag out the infections over time so that hospitals aren't overwhelmed.  The same number of people are going to get infected.  ...just stretched out over time instead of clustered all together.  All these PSA's about "Say Home.  Stay SAFE!" are horsedip.  The PSA should actually be, "Stay Home.  Git 'Rona Later."
> 
> The thing is, stats seem to support the suggestion that infections peeked (the top of the curve) in mid-to-late April.  Honestly, at this point, the only reason to "self quarantine" if you're healthy is in the hopes that you can delay your exposure until a vaccine is developed or until everyone else has gotten sick and developed herd immunity.  So "Stay Home" is all about, "My plan is for EVERYONE ELSE to get sick before me."  Which is fine except that it seems like everyone else is being encouraged to make the same plan.  It's like the entire world is going "I don't wanna try it first, you try it first... No you.  No you.  No you."
> 
> ...


im not sure ove ever agrr3d with you before, but that is a very good assessment of the worlds virus stratergy


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## geezer (Jul 15, 2020)

lklawson said:


> "Flattening the curve" still means you get sick.  But there's been a concentrated global misunderstanding where people seem to think that if they just follow the healthy self quarantining and "social distancing," then they're going to not get sick.
> Kirk



True ...for most of us who have to get back to work eventually. But "flattening the curve" combined with limited quarantine reducing infection rates also means that it may be possible for the highly vulnerable populations mentioned above to actually avoid contagion altogether. People like my elderly father and step-mother, both retired and holed up at his home out in the woods. Catching Covid-19 would almost certainly kill them. "Flattening the curve" until better treatments or a vaccine is available _could _make it possible for him to survive this. 

Unless idiots like my right-wing ideologue step-brother keep dropping in (with all his kids) to visit them, refusing to socially distance and wear masks ...because he believes it's all a _"left-wing, fake news hoax"_ designed to infringe on HIS constitutional rights. _Rights to what?_ Infect and kill MY dad? Sometimes I'd like to exercise my right to punch him in the nose! 

OK, ....punching someone in the nose isn't a right. But some times it oughta be!


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## drop bear (Jul 15, 2020)




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## lklawson (Jul 15, 2020)

geezer said:


> True ...for most of us who have to get back to work eventually. But "flattening the curve" combined with limited quarantine reducing infection rates also means that it may be possible for the highly vulnerable populations mentioned above to actually avoid contagion altogether. People like my elderly father and step-mother, both retired and holed up at his home out in the woods. Catching Covid-19 would almost certainly kill them. "Flattening the curve" until better treatments or a vaccine is available _could _make it possible for him to survive this.


Everyone is related to someone who is vulnerable.  My "Greatest Generation" grandmother.  Both my parents.  My Type 2 Diabetic brother.  My stroke-survivor high-blood-pressure wife.  etc.



> Unless idiots like my right-wing ideologue step-brother keep dropping in (with all his kids) to visit them, refusing to socially distance and wear masks ...because he believes it's all a _"left-wing, fake news hoax"_ designed to infringe on HIS constitutional rights. _Rights to what?_ Infect and kill MY dad? Sometimes I'd like to exercise my right to punch him in the nose!


Your dad isn't a big boy who can tell them to step back, don't come in, wear a mask?  Your dad is making his own choices.  Just because you don't like his choices doesn't mean that you get to make them for him.



> OK, ....punching someone in the nose isn't a right. But some times it oughta be!


I understand the feeling.


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## CB Jones (Jul 15, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> Georgia is doing bad, but the Georgia Health Department numbers can't be trusted. They got caught 2 or 3 times trying to manipulate the data so that it looks less damaging.



In our state they are reporting that numbers are inflated.  They have been reporting all positive tests as new cases even though it is multiple tests of the same person.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 15, 2020)

CB Jones said:


> In our state they are reporting that numbers are inflated.  They have been reporting all positive tests as new cases even though it is multiple tests of the same person.


Is these numbers fro the State Health department?


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## geezer (Jul 15, 2020)

CB Jones said:


> In our state they are reporting that numbers are inflated.  They have been reporting all positive tests as new cases even though it is multiple tests of the same person.



Initially last spring under-testing and under-reporting the number of cases was more of a problem. Now we are catching up on testing, and creating equally unreliable statistics. I've also heard about the problems with multiple testing, duplicate reporting of test results. I'm more concerned with the hospitalization and mortality rates. My guess is that it will be years before we get a really clear picture of how this is playing out.


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## CB Jones (Jul 15, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> Is these numbers fro the State Health department?



Yes


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 15, 2020)

CB Jones said:


> Yes


I don't know why they don't just worry more about getting the correct numbers vs trying to paint a picture. If they are double counting on purpose then that doesn't help either.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 15, 2020)

geezer said:


> This is going out to all wrestlers and grapplers of all styles ...since grappling has the most physical contact of any MA.
> 
> Our governor here in AZ just shut down all gyms, studios, health clubs, etc. again for at least another month and the police have started giving out citations, up to $2,500 per infraction to show that they are serious.  I'm thinking this latest closure will be probably extended for "the duration" ... i.e. until infection rates drop to near zero, or until there is a vaccine or other really effective treatment for Covid-19. The way it looks now, that would probably be next spring or summer at the earliest.
> 
> ...


I haven’t trained or taught any grappling since February. At the current infection rate in NC, I don’t expect to get back to it this year.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 15, 2020)

geezer said:


> ^^^ I thought _that_ was the whole point. Try to achieve a slow, _controlled burn_ rather than a _raging inferno_ of infection so that the hospitals and associated healthcare personnel and resources are never overwhelmed. It's that or try to lie low and wait it out until a vaccine or at least a highly effective anti-viral treatment becomes available.
> 
> Either way, the current state will drag on until 1. we have a vaccine and/or highly effective antiviral treatments, or 2. most people (perhaps 80%) have gotten the virus and the population at large  develops a "herd immunity".
> 
> ...


Unfortunately, there is some evidence that infection - at least in some cases - provides very temporary immunity. I’m hoping that turns out to be a minor sub-population effect.


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## lklawson (Jul 16, 2020)

geezer said:


> My guess is that it will be years before we get a really clear picture of how this is playing out.


We never will.  The data has been too far tainted.  The current data is more-or-less worthless.  If someone were to go back and individually review every documented case, we might get somewhat more reliable data.  But we all know that won't happen in our lifetimes.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## dvcochran (Jul 16, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> yeah Georgia is doing bad, but the Georgia Health Department numbers can't be trusted.  They got caught 2 or 3  times trying to manipulate the data so that it looks less damaging.  I saw a chart to day that makes it look like the new cases are going down,  but their are news article stating that Georgia may roll back some of its plans for reopening.   I'm not sure about Kentucky, but with Georgia people should look at the Case count from multiple sources to see which data is wildly different through comparison. I'm not sure how things are now but 2 weeks ago when I went to the groceries a lot of people weren't wearing masks.
> 
> All of this is still surreal at times.  More so the general responses from people than the virus.  Things like COVID parties are beyond me.  But I shouldn't be too surprised I guess with people eating Tide Pods and extreme amounts of cinnamon.


I just checked the CDC site. I was not aware Georgia was that high in total cases. It is curious how several states, including Georgia do not list confirmed cases. Does make you wonder. 
Kentucky is very low at just over 20k. TN is about 1/2 what GA is.  FL, which supposedly has had a 'huge' spike is under 80k. Go figure.


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## dvcochran (Jul 16, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Unfortunately, there is some evidence that infection - at least in some cases - provides very temporary immunity. I’m hoping that turns out to be a minor sub-population effect.


Our son, after waiting 18 days to get word, got a positive test result. He was never 'sick' or felt bad but was thought to be exposed. The doctor's office told him he would test positive the rest of his life. I am still trying to figure that one out.


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## dvcochran (Jul 16, 2020)

lklawson said:


> And we've done that.  The point, as you note, is NOT to prevent infections.  The point is to drag out the infections over time so that hospitals aren't overwhelmed.  The same number of people are going to get infected.  ...just stretched out over time instead of clustered all together.  All these PSA's about "Say Home.  Stay SAFE!" are horsedip.  The PSA should actually be, "Stay Home.  Get Infected Later."
> 
> The thing is, stats seem to support the suggestion that infections peeked (the top of the curve) in mid-to-late April.  Honestly, at this point, the only reason to "self quarantine" if you're healthy is in the hopes that you can delay your exposure until a vaccine is developed or until everyone else has gotten sick and developed herd immunity.  So "Stay Home" is all about, "My plan is for EVERYONE ELSE to get sick before me."  Which is fine except that it seems like everyone else is being encouraged to make the same plan.  It's like the entire world is going "I don't wanna try it first, you try it first... No you.  No you.  No you."
> 
> ...


Fully agree. Do you not think a good portion of this is politically charged?


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## dvcochran (Jul 16, 2020)

geezer said:


> other really effective treatment for Covid-19


Effective would be taking the information stream out of the mainstream medias hands and putting it under the medical community where is should have been all along.


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 16, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Our son, after waiting 18 days to get word, got a positive test result. He was never 'sick' or felt bad but was thought to be exposed. The doctor's office told him he would test positive the rest of his life. I am still trying to figure that one out.



They are wrong.


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## Danny T (Jul 16, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Our son, after waiting 18 days to get word, got a positive test result. He was never 'sick' or felt bad but was thought to be exposed. The doctor's office told him he would test positive the rest of his life. I am still trying to figure that one out.





dvcochran said:


> Effective would be taking the information stream out of the mainstream medias hands and putting it under the medical community where is should have been all along.





Dirty Dog said:


> They are wrong.


Well here you go. One in the medical community provided information about covid and another in the medical community disagrees.

Here in lies the problems. The medical community, the CDC, the WHO, the science communities don't agree with the data, the science, nor what to do about it. How can those charged with making decisions as to the best course of action for rest of us know what to do!?


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 16, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> I just checked the CDC site. I was not aware Georgia was that high in total cases. It is curious how several states, including Georgia do not list confirmed cases. Does make you wonder.
> Kentucky is very low at just over 20k. TN is about 1/2 what GA is.  FL, which supposedly has had a 'huge' spike is under 80k. Go figure.


The Governor has been trying to misrepresent data since the first day it started to get bad for us in May.  This is an actual chart that was placed on the state health website  Looks good right?  Downward Trend.  Georgia kicks butt.  

Visually it looks good right until you look at the dates below.  They show April 29th before April 27th.  Stuff like that can be seen throughout the chart.    They did similar charts 2 separate weeks (that I know of) that set up the data to look like things were getting better.  Georgia has never been improving.  I get angry every time I look at this.  So when you hear me sound overly cautious about COVID-19 part of it is because of stuff like this.








This is the data from John Hopkins.  This is what Georgia really has been doing. 




This is what Georgia COVID Deaths really look like




I trust the 2 smaller charts because those charts match the most recent headlines:
*"Gov. Kemp issues new executive orders as COVID-19 spike continues in Georgia"
"Gov. Kemp extends restrictions on gatherings & businesses; bans city, county mask mandates"*

But he's still stuck on stupid because he's trying to make a ban where Cities can't issue mandatory mask ordinances.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 16, 2020)

Danny T said:


> Well here you go. One in the medical community provided information about covid and another in the medical community disagrees.
> 
> Here in lies the problems. The medical community, the CDC, the WHO, the science communities don't agree with the data, the science, nor what to do about it. How can those charged with making decisions as to the best course of action for rest of us know what to do!?


That doctor was just misinformed. It's pretty well established that you won't test positive for COVID the rest of your life if you have it once. By looking at the many many people who test positive, and then test negative a few weeks later. That parts not really being debated by the medical community as a whole.

They might be debating about the antibodies, if you will have those forever. i really don't know.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 16, 2020)

Danny T said:


> Here in lies the problems. The medical community, the CDC, the WHO, the science communities don't agree with the data, the science, nor what to do about it. How can those charged with making decisions as to the best course of action for rest of us know what to do!?


Easy.  You err on the side of Caution. 

The one thing that all medical professions and Scientist have agreed on, is that this is a New Virus that they know very little about and that they are still learning.  That has been their statement since day one. 

I have a bottle with a Virus in it.
I don't know if the virus is dead and harmless or if it's active.
I ask you to inhale it.
What would you choose?  Err on the side of Caution or open the bottle and inhale it, hoping that it will be harmless?


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 16, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> That doctor was just misinformed. It's pretty well established that you won't test positive for COVID the rest of your life if you have it once. By looking at the many many people who test positive, and then test negative a few weeks later. That parts not really being debated by the medical community as a whole.
> 
> They might be debating about the antibodies, if you will have those forever. i really don't know.


What I'm seeing is that the more they find out about the virus the more they start to agree on certain things.
1. Highly contagious. - All Agree
2. Can be deadly. - All agree
3. May cause long term damage - All agree
4. Affects the respiratory system - All agree
5. Laying no stomach helps to improve the chances that you won't need a ventilator - All agree
6. Virus transmits through the air - All agree
7. Wearing a mask reduces the risk - All agree.
8. 6 feet distance reduces the risk - All agree.
9. The more people in a group, the higher the opportunity for you to be exposed to the virus - All agree
10.  The virus has already mutated, but they don't know if the mutation cause it to be deadly or if the mutation is active - All agree.

The more they learn the more they can run things through the scientific method, research, studies, and data analysis.  The more they learn about the virus the more things that they will come to agreement on.  Right now we are seeing the process that they always go through.  Usually when there's a virus outbreak it's about a virus that they already know about.  The same types of disagreements and debates existed before they understood Ebola.  We just weren't exposed to that learning process.


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 16, 2020)

Danny T said:


> Well here you go. One in the medical community provided information about covid and another in the medical community disagrees.



Their office was grossly uninformed. The tests for COVID-19 test for the virus. If you are positive, you have an active infection. When you're no longer infected, you will test negative. When you get reinfected, you will test positive again. This remains true even in the extremely unlikely case of an antibody test.


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## drop bear (Jul 17, 2020)

We followed the guidelines of the medical experts and because of that I will be sparring tomorrow. 

I really don't understand the conversation at this point. It is as if people are trying to make some sort of rationalisation. To do what you want rather than what you should.

Or that the scientific community hasn't been pretty clear. 

I mean it seems pretty simple. We trusted the experts and followed their advice and we are out of lockdown. After about a hundred deaths. 

You guys seem to have done your own research discovered that the experts are wrong, went and did your own thing and have thousands of death's. 

And will still wind up having to do the basic things we did at the beginning anyway. Just harder because you let it go longer.


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## Steve (Jul 17, 2020)

Danny T said:


> STOP It! You are talking with sense. STOP THAT!!
> 
> And as the curve is flatten the length of curve is increased


not necessarily.  For that to be true, it presumes that the same number of people will (given time) become infected.  Not a given if folks aren't stupid about it.  

Re flattening the curve, as I understand but, the goal is to avoid overwhelming the hospitals.


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## Steve (Jul 17, 2020)

lklawson said:


> And we've done that.  The point, as you note, is NOT to prevent infections.  The point is to drag out the infections over time so that hospitals aren't overwhelmed.  The same number of people are going to get infected.  ...just stretched out over time instead of clustered all together.  All these PSA's about "Say Home.  Stay SAFE!" are horsedip.  The PSA should actually be, "Stay Home.  Get Infected Later."
> 
> The thing is, stats seem to support the suggestion that infections peeked (the top of the curve) in mid-to-late April.  Honestly, at this point, the only reason to "self quarantine" if you're healthy is in the hopes that you can delay your exposure until a vaccine is developed or until everyone else has gotten sick and developed herd immunity.  So "Stay Home" is all about, "My plan is for EVERYONE ELSE to get sick before me."  Which is fine except that it seems like everyone else is being encouraged to make the same plan.  It's like the entire world is going "I don't wanna try it first, you try it first... No you.  No you.  No you."
> 
> ...


I don't think it's a given that the same number of people will be infected.  That's questionable logic.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 17, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Our son, after waiting 18 days to get word, got a positive test result. He was never 'sick' or felt bad but was thought to be exposed. The doctor's office told him he would test positive the rest of his life. I am still trying to figure that one out.


That’s likely an antibody test, which actually tests for the immune response to the virus. So a positive test there doesn’t indicate an active infection, but that there once was one.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 17, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Effective would be taking the information stream out of the mainstream medias hands and putting it under the medical community where is should have been all along.


Those are not different things. The media tries to digest the information and disseminate it. Some topics they do better than others on. I also read directly from study abstracts, and occasionally full reports, to get closer to the experts’ own words.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 17, 2020)

drop bear said:


> went and did your own thing and have thousands of death's.
> 
> And will still wind up having to do the basic things we did at the beginning anyway. Just harder because you let it go longer.


Pretty much 100% accurate.  Wait for the spin and the reasoning of why they did things like that.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 17, 2020)

Danny T said:


> Well here you go. One in the medical community provided information about covid and another in the medical community disagrees.
> 
> Here in lies the problems. The medical community, the CDC, the WHO, the science communities don't agree with the data, the science, nor what to do about it. How can those charged with making decisions as to the best course of action for rest of us know what to do!?


The basic recommendations are mostly consistent across the medical and scientific community, with most differences being either time-based (new information coming out) or a matter of degree.


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## Steve (Jul 17, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Effective would be taking the information stream out of the mainstream medias hands and putting it under the medical community where is should have been all along.


When the president, the vice president, the press secretary, are all denouncing science and undercutting the scientists, I wonder why you would blame the media.  Just within the last few days they are all on record saying they don't want science getting in the way of opening schools.  Think about that.


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## Danny T (Jul 17, 2020)

Steve said:


> When the president, the vice president, the press secretary, are all denouncing science and undercutting the scientists, I wonder why you would blame the media.  Just within the last few days they are all on record saying they don't want science getting in the way of opening schools.  Think about that.


You either misunderstood what you heard or you only passing on someone else's opinion on what they thought they heard. Go listen to the whole discussion. They actually said the science is on their side.


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## Steve (Jul 17, 2020)

Danny T said:


> You either misunderstood what you heard or you only passing on someone else's opinion on what they thought they heard. Go listen to the whole discussion. They actually said the science is on their side.


I heard it from McEneny who passed it on from Pence.  Sure, she says "The president has said unmistakably that he wants schools to open...When he says open, he means open and full, kids being able to attend each and every day at their school. The science should not stand in the way of this."  And then 10 seconds later she says the science is on their side without ever explaining what that means.  Regardless of one's politics, the question remains why the media is to be blamed.  I mean, at most, this current administration is criminally negligent in their approach to the pandemic.  *But at the very least,* they have bungled this entire situation.  They sent mixed signals, muddled messages, and internally inconsistent statements to the public which have exacerbated the scope of the pandemic, hurt the economy, and caused a lot of unnecessary sickness and death.  The media didn't do that.  The president and his administration did it.


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 17, 2020)

Steve said:


> When the president, the vice president, the press secretary, are all denouncing science and undercutting the scientists, I wonder why you would blame the media.  Just within the last few days they are all on record saying they don't want science getting in the way of opening schools.  Think about that.



Because that's part of the playbook. The Worst President In The History of History has decreed that anything or anyone that disagrees with him is Fake News. Even when they're only pointing out one of the 20,000 plus documentable lies he's told.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 17, 2020)

Well if you have school age Children make sure you get accurate case data by checking multiple sources from different institutions.  Then think twice about sending your child to school.  Take the online option if available.  Depending on where you are, by the time school opens, most school are going to change their mind about in person teaching.

It'll be just like the opening of businesses, where states opened up early, learned the hard way that was a mistake, and then had to walk it back.    If they are ultimately going to walk it back, then it's better to not go through that lesson with them.


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## Danny T (Jul 17, 2020)

Steve said:


> I heard it from McEneny who passed it on from Pence.  Sure, she says "The president has said unmistakably that he wants schools to open...When he says open, he means open and full, kids being able to attend each and every day at their school. The science should not stand in the way of this."  And then 10 seconds later she says the science is on their side without ever explaining what that means.  Regardless of one's politics, the question remains why the media is to be blamed.  I mean, at most, this current administration is criminally negligent in their approach to the pandemic.  *But at the very least,* they have bungled this entire situation.  They sent mixed signals, muddled messages, and internally inconsistent statements to the public which have exacerbated the scope of the pandemic, hurt the economy, and caused a lot of unnecessary sickness and death.  The media didn't do that.  The president and his administration did it.



She cited the JAMA Pediatrics study that listed “46 Pediatrics Hospitals in North America that said the risk of critical illness from Covid is far less for children than that of seasonal flu. The science is on our side here and we encourage for localities and states to just simply follow the science; open our schools. It is very damaging to our children. There is a lack of reporting of abuse, there is mental depressions not addressed, suicidal ideations not being addressed when students are not in school. Our schools are extremely important, they are essential and they must reopen."

Now I agree there has been a lot of changing information and mistaken information from the medical community, the WHO, and the CDC from which decisions have been may. As I stated above there is a lot of misinformation flowing from everywhere.


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## dvcochran (Jul 17, 2020)

Steve said:


> When the president, the vice president, the press secretary, are all denouncing science and undercutting the scientists, I wonder why you would blame the media.  Just within the last few days they are all on record saying they don't want science getting in the way of opening schools.  Think about that.


We are watching/hearing two very different news streams. You don't thing Fauci is driven by other than 'scientific' motives? C'mon man.


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## dvcochran (Jul 17, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Those are not different things. The media tries to digest the information and disseminate it. Some topics they do better than others on. I also read directly from study abstracts, and occasionally full reports, to get closer to the experts’ own words.


Smart man. 
I do strongly feel there is not enough accurate and verified data out there yet for anyone to do more than take a poke in the dark at this point.


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## dvcochran (Jul 17, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> That’s likely an antibody test, which actually tests for the immune response to the virus. So a positive test there doesn’t indicate an active infection, but that there once was one.


Yes, that is what they said. But they also said he would always test positive which I do not understand at all.


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## Jaeimseu (Jul 17, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> We are watching/hearing two very different news streams. You don't thing Fauci is driven by other than 'scientific' motives? C'mon man.



What motives (other than public health) do you think Dr. Fauci has?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Steve (Jul 17, 2020)

duplicate post


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## Steve (Jul 17, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> We are watching/hearing two very different news streams. You don't thing Fauci is driven by other than 'scientific' motives? C'mon man.


Regarding Fauci, he's a career NIH scientist who's been working at the NIH since 1968, through Nixon (R), Ford (R), Carter (D), Reagan (R), Bush (R), Clinton (D), Bush (R), and Obama (D).  What kind of "other" motive are you suggesting?  What could his angle possibly be?  This is astoundingly stupid.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 17, 2020)

*THREAD LOCKED

Political discussions aren't allowed here.

If you want to discuss politics, then go to one of the other forums hosted by the Forum Foundry.

Here's one you can use.

US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum
*
William Hollwedel
@Monkey Turned Wolf 
MartialTalk Moderator


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