# The rant thread



## Don Roley

I am not known for keeping my opinions to myself. Here we go folks. Feel free to add some of your own.

First of all, I was recently made aware of some folks trying to get together and share their Shinden Fudo ryu notes in an internet forum so that they could all have a better idea of what they were teaching.

 

Excuse me... Did any of these guys ever hear Hatsumi warn against the use of the internet or that even video tapes could not capture the important parts of the art? Yet they are going to collect their notes together, compare them and then turn around and _teach_ what they learned?!?!?

Folks, that is like the story of the blind men trying to describe an elephant. And they are passing along that flawed knowledge to their students. Instead of sticking to things they may know through personal instruction, they are using the notes of somene else to teach.

Here is another rant....

Ever since Hatsumi stopped going overseas the amount of people showing up to Japan has risen a lot. I can understand that. But a lot of folks just do not seem to have any sort of understanding of the art at all. And a lot of them are morons.

We don't even use bokkens anymore at Hatsumi training. It was not too long ago that people were using _mugito_ and such based on Hatsumi's specifications and now we have to use soft sticks for sword training. There are just too many idiots doing whatever the hell they want with little regard for safety of others. Hatsumi seems to want to make training idiot proof, but the idiots are pretty determined. And the size of the classes are such that they can't be controlled. A person trying some of the things I have seen at Hatsumi training at my teacher's class would get slapped down pretty quick. You can't do that with all the folks at Hatsumi training in time to stop a serious injury.:btg: 

Oh, and could some of these guys at least _try_ to do what the teacher is doing? Pretty please! Honest to god, so many folks see Hatsumi toss someone to the ground and think that as long as the guy hits the ground then any way is fine. Take a look at the Daikomyosai tapes. Watch as Hatsumi demonstrates something and then look at the footage of people practicing. Sometimes you have to wonder if they are even in the same room as Hatsumi. :soapbox: 

I have heard people say things like we are all trying to make our own art instead of just being copies or Hatsumi and nonsense like that. I will call it as it is and say that they are just covering up for the fact that they can't do what is being shown and don't want to try. Maybe it makes them look bad to try what Hatsumi is doing and fail to take the guy to the ground. So instead of doing that and figuring out how Hatsumi made it work through trial and error _and asking_ they do things like just pick the guy up and toss him through brute strength.

Hey folks, if you are going to do your own thing save yourself some cash and me some space on the mat and _stay home!!!!_

Gee, do you think that maybe Hatsumi is showing you these exact moves for a reason? Do you think that maybe, just maybe, he thinks that if you do them you would get better? But instead of trying to do what he is doing, you are going to say that you know better and do your own thing. Hey, there's no wrong way to eat a Reeses, eh?

Oh, and what are people being taught before they show up to Japan? I see a lot of green belts and even white belts in training now. It seems a waste of time and money to show up when you might not even know something that is required in the classes like _Yume Makura._ But hell, last night I worked out with a black belt that never seems to have heard of it. Oh yeah, there was a lot of people at training and it is a pretty dangerous move, so the teacher only showed the set up for it. But this guy tried to make me fall _backwards_ with it. (For those of you outside the art, Yume Makura is basically where you grab the guy in a hold and fall backward, driving his face into the ground from a fall.)

I remember Brian Tricticio (sp?) asking me to translate his request to Someya to take him through all the basics since he was not sure of them and he did not want to damage his students progress through his own ignorance. It stands out because so few people seem to even consider that their basics need review. I respect Brian for doing that. I sneer at those that won't challenge their assumptions about their abilities. They don't know the stuff and the stuff they know is not up to snuff IMO. But they show up without knowing and never, never ask for some advice on how to stand and such.

Oh yeah, and what is up with all these guys that can't bother to show up for any training other than Hatsumi's? Do these guys honestly believe they can't learn something from someone like Noguchi, Kan, Someya, etc? I actually don't show up to training with Hatsumi all that much because I find that the smaller classes of the Japanese shihan gets me more corrections and attention from them. So it always used to make my jaw drop when I would see tons of people pack things up and leave after Hatsumi's Sunday morning class before Nagato would start teaching. Now that the class times are reversed, I hear that tons of people just can't get out of bed in time to make it to Nagato's class.

Let me be blunt, most of those folks that don't show up to the shihan's training need it the most. Not that some of those that do actually are trying to do what the teacher showed, but hey......

I am sure I am going to add to this later. And I am sure that some folks on both sides of the issue will chime in. I don't want to name the names of the many morons I could, because I would rather urge others to do better than cause a flame war. Are you being considerate of those around you during training? Are you trying to do what Hatsumi shows? Are you challenging your basics, your very basics and seeing if there is some way of improving them? Think on this.:asian:


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## Sam

this should be in general so we can all rant, about everything.

as its in ninjutsu I dont feel it would be appropriate to rant about blackbelt sparring partners who have no control


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## shesulsa

Sam said:
			
		

> this should be in general so we can all rant, about everything.
> 
> as its in ninjutsu I dont feel it would be appropriate to rant about blackbelt sparring partners who have no control



Sam, actually there is a lot of sensitive politics surrounding Hatsumi and the study of ninjutsu outside of his dojo as well as people taking a hanful of lessons from Hatsumi and then bringing their notes to the US and elsewhere to teach it themselves, so this forum is appropriate for this particular rant.

If you'd like to start a thread in General for all-around rants, feel free.


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## saru1968

I'd like to disagree with Don but after my first visit to Honbu last September i was surprised by some actions of some practioners.

For me i tried to emulate what was being shown abd being correct on numerous occasions but i'd rather do that than carry on regardless and do my own thing.

I do wonder whether people are the same as home as they are Honbu. The issue of rubbish is beyond belief, going because Soke is not teaching although a Shihan is taking the lesson, videoing Someya's lesson without permission then just standing and watching whilst the whole Dojo except the 'video visitors' cleaned the Dojo.

AS for level of training, i came away realising how little i know in the great scheme of things and how important the basics are.

Someone asked me whether it was worth going over before Shodan. Now this is my opinion only based on my experiences, I myself will return once i feel my basics are alot better, the experience was great apart from the various 'non thinking, common sense removed brigade'. I remember one guy who i explained about not putting rubbish in the bin near honbu, who just gave me a stupid look and did it. Then he was 'jumped on' verbally by some students for doing so, the words 'I told you so' never sounded so good!.

Back to the question about training at Honbu before shodan, if you basics are good then fine although i personally feel 4th Dan should be the entry level.

And anyone who can be bothered to travel to Shihan's own Dojos are really narrow minded and need to treat their minds like parachutes on a rapid descent.

Again only my thoughts on my experience.


Gary


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## Don Roley

saru1968 said:
			
		

> AS for level of training, i came away realising how little i know in the great scheme of things and how important the basics are.
> 
> Someone asked me whether it was worth going over before Shodan. Now this is my opinion only based on my experiences, I myself will return once i feel my basics are alot better,



You know, I am not certain that is good or not.

Lets face it folks, the Gaijin Bujinkan kind of sucks. I am not talking about the Japanese shihan or Hatsumi. I am talking about the general level of knowledge out there. The guys that were talking about collecting their notes and teaching _correctly_ :erg: are probably pretty much the standard. You may be teaching things as you know them as best you can, and your teacher may be teaching as best he can from who he learned from. But somewhere along the line there was possibly someone who added a few things and kind of went off on a slight course deviation.

When I hear Hatsumi talking about teaching to tenth dans and above or similar comments, I think he mainly means that he is going to teach the stuff only he can teach and leave the basics to others. There was a certain shihan looking out over folks training at _kihon happo_ at the beggining of class who said, "lots of different ways to do the kihon, eh?" He then taught the class the way he wanted people to do it.

How many folks are learning bad kihon from folks that do not know it themselves? It scares me to think about it. The responsibility is on each student to learn this art. The teacher can lead us to water, but they can't make us drink. And if people do not show up to shihan's classes where they could learn the basics, or only want to learn the years theme or what have you, or they don't bother to really try to do what the teacher is showing... then how can they be expected to teach proper basics when they get home.

Folks, I am egotistical enough to think that I am better than most folks in the Bujinkan. But I think I suck. I am not being humble- that is not possible for me. I honestly think I am terrible. I get drilled by one of the Japanese senior students whenever we work out together. He will not let me get away with even small mistakes. I see others in the room doing the same things I am getting corrected on, but they sail on in ignorance. If they don't bother to try what the teacher is showing, why should they try to correct what they are doing seems to be the way of thinking.

Maybe instead of staying away from Japan, you should come back after you have trained in what you have learned to the best of your abilities. You mentioned Someya. Ask him to teach you the basics next time you are here. At least ask him for advice while you do the kihon in class. Then take that home and work on it. Repeat as needed.

We can't take responsibility for the Bujinkan as a whole, but we can work to improve ourselves. And the first thing we need to start off with is to question if what we think we know is correct or not.


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## ManOfVirtues

Only being a part of the Bujinkan community for just short of a year or so now I can say that this thread has left me with more questions then answers. 

I have already planned a trip to Japan for January of next year, and no offense Don I have a great amount of respect for you, but you make it sound like you dont want me there. My reasoning behind it is that I want to learn what is the right way. You speak about people bringing back notes and teaching thier own adaptations of a technique instead of what Hatsumi had taught. Then wouldnt it seem more logical to have the white and green belts given priority with Hatsumi, get them on the right track early? 

I have 5 days to train while im there, and besides a small list of places I would like to see in Japan, i plan on spending those 5 days training. It doesnt matter who it is with Nagato, Naguchi, Hatsumi. I am traveling to Japan to learn from the best and thats it.


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## Don Roley

ManOfVirtues said:
			
		

> Then wouldnt it seem more logical to have the white and green belts given priority with Hatsumi, get them on the right track early?



That would be like having Einstein teach basic math. If you get here, train with someone like Someya as much as you can. I know folks that do the opposite of the guys I ranted about. In other words, if they have to take a day off for a trip or job interview, they scheduale it for when Hatsumi is teaching and go to the smaller shihan's classes as much as possible.

Think of it this way, with only a few years left to him Hatsumi needs to get certain things out to those that can pick it up. Do you think he should drop everything and teach _omote gyaku_ every time someone that does not know it shows up? There are people like that almost all the time now in training. It is their loss. Others can't be concerned with their lack of preperation.


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## ManOfVirtues

Don I think you have sparked an idea for a conversation that I will need to have with Phil, Thank you.


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## Don Roley

On another subject for a rant....

In the Bujinkan, we are overranked as compared to other arts. Hell, I don't care what others think one way or another.

Hatsumi has said that he gives out rank sometimes earlier than maybe the person deserves it. They have to then grow into it.

So why do so many people make a point of letting others know their rank? Are they so certain that they are one of the ones that don't have to grow into their rank?

Hey, if I got a rank that I thought I was not worthy of, I would work my tail off to live up to it by training. But the standard line of thinking now seems to be, "hey, I must be better than I thought!" 

You have folks that not only wear a badge that identifies them as a person who passed the godan test, but they also wear stars so that no one would think that they were a _mere_ godan. You have folks that make sure you know in on- line conversations what rank they are. Do you know how many times I have had people try to counter what I write about history by saying, 'well according to X-dan Joe Schmoe....':whip: What does a dan rank have to do with knowledge of history and language?

Honestly, I hear everyone say 'rank means nothing' because that is what is expected for people to say. But their actions _scream,_ "except for me."

The folks I respect are those that either tell their rank to show how low they are on the totem pole- like ManofVirtues, or those that won't talk or reveal it at all if they can- like Tamayoke. Really, rank is a distraction. It is a gift, a compliment, a pat on the back and encouragement to keep going. When I get complimented at work, I don't rush out to tell everyone I know. Why make a big deal about making sure everyone knows what rank you are? :idunno:


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## ManOfVirtues

I would agree.

The only reason I post my name, rank, and school on the forums so people like you Don can look at it and say "Ok, 8th Kyu, hes relatively new to this", or "Hey I trained with someone from that school way back in the day".

And belive me no one knows better about "are you sure im ready, man I better work harder and stop messing up so much" then me.



.... back to the distraction of work from my forum time  ...


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## Kreth

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Why make a big deal about making sure everyone knows what rank you are? :idunno:


Because pimping that lofty rank is a great way to advance and expand your personal Ninja Empire (tm)...


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## ManOfVirtues

but like they say "Pimping aint easy."


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## Shinkengata

Kreth said:
			
		

> Because pimping that lofty rank is a great way to advance and expand your personal Ninja Empire (tm)...



Also a great way to meet chicks.


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## ManOfVirtues

I can see it now. A guy walks into a bar Tabi and all. "Hey, how you doin? What ? yea Im a ninja. Yea its a sweet job."


And thus because of this guy we have just validated eveything seen in an 80's ninja movie.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

This rant is directly related to problems with legacy transferral in any art, methinks. I've sat and watched a room full of kenpo black belts NOT do what Parker was doing, despite frequent admonitions and corrections, until he finally gives up and moves on to the next item. I'm seeing it now in BJJ; the quality of finer details of execution getting dropped off the plate in favor of the cooler looking stuff so and so did on the UFC a couple times back.

God forbid we make a concerted effort to actually practice at replicating the details present in the perofmrance of those who know how.

Good rant; sorry the quality has declined so much in one generation, but it seems to represent a trend...something about the distance of apples from trees, and all that.

Regards,

Dave


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## Brian R. VanCise

Don,

You are right on when you say that everyone should attend as many of the Shihan's classes as possible!  Training with Nagato, Noguchi, Senno, Oguri as well as Someya, Shiraishi, etc. is a real treat! : )  Definately they help to prepare you for training with Soke. (which everyone needs)

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Don Roley

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> This rant is directly related to problems with legacy transferral in any art, methinks. I've sat and watched a room full of kenpo black belts NOT do what Parker was doing, despite frequent admonitions and corrections, until he finally gives up and moves on to the next item. I'm seeing it now in BJJ; the quality of finer details of execution getting dropped off the plate in favor of the cooler looking stuff so and so did on the UFC a couple times back.



This thread is about things in the Bujinkan and I really do not want it sidetracked with problems you don't find in the Bujinkan like the polotics of judging tournaments.

But..... I found what you wrote to be amazing. I thought that the idea of just ignoring those that don't seem to want to do what is being shown was a Japanese thing. It sounds like Parker took more time to try to point out and correct them than the Japanese would. But they still went on with their own thing and finally moved on. Wow!

I really can't force people to do anything here. But if people read this, maybe they can start asking themselves if they are the ones doing their own thing instead of what the teacher is showing. I wonder if some of them even know that they are so different from the teacher. I know I have made big mistakes- but I try to look out for them as best I can. Maybe if folks just tried to be a little paranoid about not being so sure that what they are doing and constantly questioned themselves thing would be better.

But there would still be plenty of morons who would not be willing to fail in front of others and stick to their own thing. A good teacher does not make you do things inside your comfort zone. If you fail, you get a chance to figure out why you did so and work at it until you find the key that insures success. I expect to fall on my face a few times while learning. But there are a lot of folks that can't afford that loss of face. Not only do they not try what the teacher is showing, they sometimes walk around and try to teach others instead of working out themselves.

But that is a rant for another time.........


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## Grey Eyed Bandit

Don Roley said:
			
		

> But this guy tried to make me fall _backwards_ with it. (For those of you outside the art, Yume Makura is basically where you grab the guy in a hold and fall backward, driving his face into the ground from a fall.)


 
You can do it backwards too. It won't be strictly speaking a yume/te makura any more, but the principle can be applied even like that.:asian: 

In any case, I believe a lot of these problems stem from the type of people who see all this as a pastime and nothing else. They're not interested in learning ryuha kata, they're not interested in self defense, they're not interested in historical facts, they're not interested in becoming good and they could care less about the way other people train - they just want to move around a little and feel better about themselves from doing it.

Stay tuned, because I intend to follow through with a personal analysis of the general Bujinkan clientele. With a vengeance.


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## Bujingodai

Definatly a good rant. I am going to sit in on 3 Hatsumi sensei classes, because I am there, but I am also coming to all the Shihans classes with the exception of Nagouchi as his class conflicts with incoming and outgoing flight times.

I always ***** about the videos of tai kai etc where everyone does their own thing. It does seem a silly. I will try my best to mimic the movement, I'll do it badly but I will do it. I think.

I am very comfortable with my suckedness. I am coming in Sept and imagine I will go back more confused than I came, and expect nothing but critique along with some beats. which is exactly what I am paying for.


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## Don Roley

Bujingodai said:
			
		

> I am coming in Sept and imagine I will go back more confused than I came,



And that is a good thing!!!!!

Another rant I have is about how some people seem to think that unless you can tell people how to get better, present it on a silver platter and give it to them, you have no right to say that what they are doing is wrong.

The first thing in getting better is knowing that what you have been doing is not right. From there you can probably figure out how to do better. But if you don't know what you are doing is wrong, then you will just continue on your merry way.

I honestly respect those that come back saying they are confused and need time to work on things than those that come back to their countries and immediatly give seminars in what they learned in Japan. In fact, my first flame fest on ninpo-l was because I raised the idea that people should wait a while and work on the material from the Daikomyosai instead of turing around and teaching it.

Ugh!!!!!! Do people learn ballet from people who have just seen the moves for the first time? Or do they wait until there has been some time for growth and practice in the student? So, why do people think it is different in the Bujinkan?

Why can't people accept that folks can say that something is not right and wait to find out the correct answers instead of _demanding_ that those that may know teach them? I have been learning this art in Japan for a long time and I can't tell folks how to do things over the internet. Teaching stuff can only be done in person. But I can hear about some things and tell you it is deifferent from what I see and hear in Japan. So why do people think I owe them a lesson? Do they expect me to jump on a plane and come see them? But if I don't, then I have heard some folks say they will continue on with what they are doing because _they_ are teachers and I am merely a student (who has been training longer than them in many cases.):mp5:


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## Don Roley

One more thing while I am in the mood.

You know how some people talk about history and make speculations on the internet.

Well....don't do it.

It is one thing to pass along information, quote and reccomend books. It is another to try to build up new information by way of anology and such. Unless you know the subject really, really well you are probably just going to miss the mark and spread a false image.

I would be rich if I had a dime for ever time someone mentioned the straight blades the Japanese used in the eighth century when we discuss if the ninjas used straight blades or not. It is like saying that the US army used muskets in the war of independance and so maybe...._just maybe_ some of the guys that went ashore at Normandy also had one. If you know the _full picture_ you would know just how silly some things sound on the internet. But people who can't even read the language.... who can't even find Kyoto on the map even, drop these things into discussions and leave folks like me to explain all the reasons why it is not as it first sounds.

And people wonder why I jump up and down on folks "just trying to help." :mp5:


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## Don Roley

And yet another rant on the same lines as my last post.

Do we _really_ need _yet another_ article out there? 

There is a saying, those who can't do, teach. I think it should be updated to read, those who can't do, teach others on the internet.

I tend to know more about things like Japanesee history and the like than 99 percent of the folks in the Bujinkan. Yet I have made a choice to not put out too much info out there. If there is a need, then I will do it. But I would rather keep up my studies and become more certain with what I know than possibly polute the well of knowledge.

Is there a reason for writing something? Are you so certain about the accuracy of what you write that you agree to let someone cut your testicles off if you are wrong?

Well, if there is not need and you are just showing off and you aren't willing to put your manhood on- line _then go read a good book!!!!!_

Honestly, there are guys here like Kizaru that have forgotten more about the subject than most folks will ever learn. You may note that he does not post much. Between all the would- be frauds and the folks trying to impress others with all that they can spew out, it gets discouraging.

I am honestly kind of sick to my stomach after looking over some stuff that is based on shaky understanding and passed on and expanded on by others until it just does not have any bearing on the reality I see being presented in Japan. There was a comment by Hatsumi years ago about the danger of the internet. One of the big things IMO, is that too many people with too little knowledge are writing things that do not have to be written.


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## Carol

Don Roley said:
			
		

> I am honestly kind of sick to my stomach after looking over some stuff that is based on shaky understanding and passed on and expanded on by others until it just does not have any bearing on the reality I see being presented in Japan. There was a comment by Hatsumi years ago about the danger of the internet. One of the big things IMO, is that too many people with too little knowledge are writing things that do not have to be written.


 
But that could be said about nearly anything sir.  Could be Taijutsu.  Could be an engineering trade journal.

In general...if a person heeds a warning, that is very passive behaviour.  To me, a warning is not a rule, nor is it a thing to be acknoweldged.  A warning is a jewel, a valuable piece of intel.  A warning identifies a threat.  

When a threat is identified, a counter attack can be planned.

But a counter-attack takes knowledge, discipline, structure, and effort.  All of these things are hard to do.  It is much easier to be passive and nod ones head and agree that a bad thing is a bad thing. It is difficult to realize results.   For indeed, some of the most difficult decisions in life are to choose what is right over what is easy.

It leaves me to wonder rhetorically...is the rant truly against those whose writings may not be up to the standards of those set in Japan?

Or, is it against those who have squandered the precious gift of forbearance from Hatsumi-sensei by refusing to expend any efforts in to an committed counter-attack that dominates its detractors...instead, being content with passively wishing them away?


Again, you challenge me to think.   Respects to you sir. :asian:


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## eyebeams

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Good rant; sorry the quality has declined so much in one generation, but it seems to represent a trend...something about the distance of apples from trees, and all that.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Dave



Everybody says this about everything. But there's plenty of evidence of improvement over time in some respects. Karate in North America is more technically competent than it has ever been, and there are videos that show this beyond most doubt. On the other hand, the values attached to an art change, so these guys who can nail, say, Bassai like no karateka has ever nailed it before might not be better fighters. They might be worse.


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## Don Roley

Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> It leaves me to wonder rhetorically...is the rant truly against those whose writings may not be up to the standards of those set in Japan?
> 
> Or, is it against those who have squandered the precious gift of forbearance from Hatsumi-sensei by refusing to expend any efforts in to an committed counter-attack that dominates its detractors...instead, being content with passively wishing them away?



Hmmm, now you have made me think- always a dangerous situation.:anic: 

There are people that run around saying, "this does not impact my training, so why bother?"

These are the folks that stand on the sidelines as people like Ashida Kim peddle their..... I can't say it on Martialtalk without triggering the curse filters.

There are people that make a point of making video home black belt courses with the excuse that they need to get the art out to as many people as possible. I think they are idiots. But these are the same folks that do not seem to want to get their reputation sullied by being labled as argumentative by telling folks that a fraud is a fraud.  

I am not talking about idiots that go looking for trouble by trolling on the Ashida Kim boards. I am talking about the folks that see stuff on sites they are members of about Ron Duncan, Ashida Kim, Frank Dux and a lot of other frauds and just will not say anything negative. They care too much about their reputation to bother to say something that may help keep some poor soul from wasting time and energy training under a fraud.

Oh yeah, and when you ask them why they study ninjutsu the typical answer is that they want to make the world a better place.  

On the other hand, I know a guy that tried to tell folks that their understanding of Shinden Fudo ryu was flawed and that they were going in the wrong direction. This was the group trying to compile their notes I mentioned. The idiots all banded together to say that since this guy (who knows more than the rest of them combined) was _merely_ a student (oh yeah- in Japan for years :uhyeah: ) he should remain quite and listen to the _teachers_ :barf: 

Yeah, I want to take both the folks that won't warn people about Ashida Kim types if given the chance and the folks that spread too much based on their meager knowledge and :snipe2:


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## Don Roley

This is kind of a rant... But also kind of a statement of confusion.

Let me take the long way around in getting to my point.

I was in Japan when Luke Molitor came to live and train here. I remember when he left to return to Dallas. At the time, one of the guys familiar with him and the situation back in his home in Texas said that finally there would be a good teacher for what had been a black hole for the Bujinkan. Obviously he is well thought of and someone many people should emulate, right?

Well, on the last session at Someya's before he left it was just him and me. Someya asked him if he had ever seen naginata or spear kata. Luke said no- not in Japan at least. So we did a kata from each.

When we were changing and cleaning, Luke made a comment that he now had two things he would not be teaching in America. I asked for clarification. He said that he only would consider things that he had seen more than once, in a situation where he could be corrected by the teacher. After seeing it for the first time, he would practice the move a lot (I mean _a lot_- the guy had a huge DSB level when he left Japan) and then go back to the teacher. If they teacher nodded in approval, it would be ready to pass along to others- after some more training of course. Oh yeah, and Luke was a close student to the teachers he had in Japan- not just another guy in the crowd.

So, considering the above, I really have to wonder about people that come out with videos and such that list all the kata from certain schools.

I am not talking about people that teach what they think a feeling is, or a specific kata. I am talking about someone who might come out with a DVD on the kata of Gyokko ryu- all of them.

I have been studying Shinden Fudo ryu this year, and it is now June. And I know there are kata I have not been taught from this school. Some of the kata I have seen more than once, but some I have not seen at all as far as I can tell. So how are people that show up for three weeks supposed to know all the kata from the school?

True, I tend to go to class more like three times a week rather than three times a day that some visitors attend. And my main teacher, Nagase, spends a lot of time on basics and application for combat than kata. But I just can't believe that people can honestly have seen and trained in all the kata from a school like the Shinden Fudo ryu in only a few weeks in Japan.

So, do they learn it from videos and then make their own? Do they go to seminars and see it once before making their videos? They don't bother to get them checked by the best instructors in the world before coming out with their versions of the kata? Some people are making certain kata requirements for rank in their dojo. Did they get tested on the knowledge like they are making others do?

Hey, this year I am making a huge effort to try to get everything I can from the Shinden Fudo ryu. I am bugging a friend of mine to show me what he knows from classes I have not attended so that I will be in a better position to learn when I see them sometime in class. I am going to more classes with shihan that teach the kata. I am actually asking them to show me stuff I know I have not been shown before. But part of me thinks that is bad.

The truth is that even one of the kata is a thing of beauty. There is so much in just one that I would gleefully spend a month on it. First I would get the movement down 100 percent correct (or as close as I could). Then I would drill into me the habits from the components of the kata and make them my own. Then I would play and explore with all the various applications you could spin off from the lessons underlying them. Rushing through to get all the kata seems to be taking a risk of gaining only shallow knowledge of the form before moving onto the next. The term 'kata collector' comes to mind. Rather than getting skills, you get something to brag about and compare with others.

So, what does this say about people who come out with videos of the kata of an entire school? How about those that have videos and/or rank requirements for multiple schools? They know all of them? They have had a real teacher of the level of Noguchi or Nagato show them the moves and correct their mistakes before they come out with these things to sell? Other people are relying on these things as honest examples and yet they don't take the time to make 100 percent certain that what they do would pass muster with Hatsumi?

Folks, I just don't believe it.


----------



## Dale Seago

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Folks, I just don't believe it.



I'm with ya, bro. It gives one a feeling of the limits of credulity being stretched to the utmost that is painfully akin to making the intimate acquaintance of Bubba in a lonely prison cell.


----------



## Rubber Tanto

Don Roley said:
			
		

> On another subject for a rant....
> Hatsumi has said that he gives out rank sometimes earlier than maybe the person deserves it. They have to then grow into it.
> 
> Really, rank is a distraction. It is a gift, a compliment, a pat on the back and encouragement to keep going.


 
Don, I understand where you are coming from, and I mean no disrespect by my next question, but don't you think this is where the problem stems from.

You yourself have just stated in posts in THIS thread that there are bujinkan instructors teaching others techniques they themselves do not yet fully understand at best , or know at worst. Correct?

So...Why are people training with this instructors? Isn't it because the rank that hangs around their waist or sewn to their Gi makes the newcomer trust them to be competent?

If I walked into a dojo and saw an instructor with the rank of Godan, shouldn't it be perfectly logical for me to assume that what he has the ability to teach as a representative of the bujinkan is that of what Hatsumi would consider to be godan level?

As I mentioned to Dale once, we had a foreign student attend our dojo once, who at 5th kyu and he could not perform a proper ukemi, or breakfall and had no understanding of balance taking. It had been the first time the young man had trained outside of his own dojo was very upset and confused when he saw the skill level of the students around him. This is not right. This person paid their hard-earned money to learn and grow just like you and I do. Surely there has to be some way to regulate the level and quality of instruction for each rank. I understand the idea behind giving a student a rank for them to grow into it...but I believe this becomes a dangerous exercise once the ranks fall into a place which gives someone the licence to teach our art.
Kind regards
Nick


----------



## Don Roley

Rubber Tanto,
Welcome to martialtalk. I hope your experience here is an informative one.

In answer to your post, I think the subject you raise deserves a thread of its own. In _this_ thread my message was not to take on the way Hatsumi does things, but to get people who read this and make a big stink about their rank to reconsider. I think they should brag less and try to work harder to be worthy of what they think Hatsumi believes them capable of.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Rubber Tanto said:
			
		

> So...Why are people training with this instructors? Isn't it because the rank that hangs around their waist or sewn to their Gi makes the newcomer trust them to be competent?


 
I don't think most people care about the instructor's credentials right off the bat. They're more likely to stay there if they like the atmosphere of the place.



			
				Rubber Tanto said:
			
		

> If I walked into a dojo and saw an instructor with the rank of Godan, shouldn't it be perfectly logical for me to assume that what he has the ability to teach as a representative of the bujinkan is that of what Hatsumi would consider to be godan level?


 
It should, but then again some people who have godan shouldn't.



			
				Rubber Tanto said:
			
		

> It had been the first time the young man had trained outside of his own dojo was very upset and confused when he saw the skill level of the students around him. This is not right.


 
That's exactly what you SHOULD be doing - checking out different people's approaches. In PC terms, it's because you might find a way of training that suits you better. In less PC terms, it's the only way to find out who sucks.



			
				Rubber Tanto said:
			
		

> This person paid their hard-earned money to learn and grow just like you and I do.


 
That's actually not always the case. In many cases he's paid money to be able to move around a little, get some exercise, meet people and feel good about himself.



			
				Rubber Tanto said:
			
		

> I understand the idea behind giving a student a rank for them to grow into it...but I believe this becomes a dangerous exercise once the ranks fall into a place which gives someone the licence to teach our art.


 
I agree, and part of what I feel is the explanation to this can be read below.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=543263&postcount=65


----------



## Bigshadow

Rubber Tanto said:
			
		

> This person paid their hard-earned money to learn and grow just like you and I do.


Hi Nick, welcome to Martial Talk!  Do you mind if  throw my .02 cents worth in here?  In my opinion, the true learning is abstract from the money one pays to learn.  One could spend a fortune and learn nothing.  It is important that the student develop the eyes to seek and identify good training.  So maybe it was time for that student to find out there is so much more, maybe he was ready.  In my opinion, students get what they deseve out of training, regardless of how much they spend.


----------



## Rubber Tanto

LOL... you know a very long time ago, an instructor I was fighting pretended to hit me in the face and as I went to block it he kicked me in the groin....the replies to my post kind of remind me of that early time in my martial arts career.

By the most, Nimravus & Big Shadow, all you have done is taken my post, broken it down into individual sentences and answered each line which alas took the entire meaning or the paragraph as a whole and pushed it out of context. Are you saying that is okay for some godans to not be at the level of godan when teaching? Please clarify with a yes or no answer. This question requires no manipulation of kukan... lol



> I don't think most people care about the instructor's credentials right off the bat. They're more likely to stay there if they like the atmosphere of the place.


 
Sure. I agree. But that is not what I asked. I asked if an instructor should be competant enough to teach at the level he has been ranked at. Godan is a rank of teaching, yes?



> That's actually not always the case. In many cases he's paid money to be able to move around a little, get some exercise, meet people and feel good about himself.


Gym classes and aerobics classes do that for you. What happened to the "Martial" in martial arts?

I'm not really here to pick a fight. People like Dale, who knows me from other threads, knows that I care quite deeply about the quality of instruction in the bujinkan. I was merely touching on a topic that Don raised in this thread. I don't want to detract from his initial topic. So I will leave it there. BUT, one thing many of you must realise is that as long as you all sweep aside or ignore something you clearly know to require consideration and regulation to improve or repair it, it will never be improved. It will never be repaired.

~Nick


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

The true point is that it is not up to us who passes the Godan test.  That is decided by Soke. (not you or me or anyone else)  We must just trust his judgement on this and continue to train to our best.  

Brian R. VanCise 
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


----------



## Rich Parsons

Brian R. VanCise said:
			
		

> The true point is that it is not up to us who passes the Godan test. That is decided by Soke. (not you or me or anyone else) We must just trust his judgement on this and continue to train to our best.
> 
> Brian R. VanCise
> www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com




Sorry for the Ignorant Question. Do all of the x-Kans look to Soke (* Not sure if this is the proper title for a non-member of the system, if not I apologize.  *) for promotion? It would not surprise me that this had been answered before and if so a link to that thread would be nice. 

Thank you


----------



## Don Roley

Rubber Tanto said:
			
		

> BUT, one thing many of you must realise is that as long as you all sweep aside or ignore something you clearly know to require consideration and regulation to improve or repair it, it will never be improved. It will never be repaired.



I think Brian kind of touched on this but I really don't see how you expect any of us to do anything about the way Hatsumi grades people. There are a few threads about rank in the Bujinkan that you can search for. But if you want to repair something, you are going to have to go up to Hatsumi and tell him what he is doing wrong.opcorn: 

Oh, and Rich- no one other than members of the Bujinkan look to Hatsumi for ranking.


----------



## saru1968

Rubber Tanto said:
			
		

> Sure. I agree. But that is not what I asked. I asked if an instructor should be competant enough to teach at the level he has been ranked at. Godan is a rank of teaching, yes?


 

Hi Nick

Nice to see you here.

I think if the said individual has not the skillset, attitude to teach correctly then the problem is contained within 'why was the person graded  1st-4th Dan' if they have not the ability.


----------



## ginshun

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Sorry for the Ignorant Question. Do all of the x-Kans look to Soke (* Not sure if this is the proper title for a non-member of the system, if not I apologize.  *) for promotion? It would not surprise me that this had been answered before and if so a link to that thread would be nice.
> 
> Thank you



As Don said, Hatsumi has nothing to do with ranking in the X-Kans, but if I recall correctly, (and I apologize if this is inaccurate, because I have never belonged to either of them) they both do however have pretty strict guidlines and testing for what a person must know and be able to do to achive specific ranks within their organization.  Ranks are not just handed out by Menaka and Tenamura as they deem fit.  I assume they could give somebody whatever rank they wanted, but from what I understand, thats not how it is done.

Edit:  According to the Jinenkan websight, the rank testing is "rigorous" amd each level from 3 kyu and up have strict requirements.  It also says that only Manaka can cunduct test for 3rd dan and up.


----------



## Bigshadow

Rubber Tanto said:
			
		

> Are you saying that is okay for some godans to not be at the level of godan when teaching?



I do not qualify that decision, only soke does.  If you don't think a particular godan is capable of teaching you something, don't train with that godan (as I would do the same), you are responsible for the quality of your training.  It is your choice, not mine.

Being godan doesn't make one a teacher. It is the point at which you can get your shidoshi license (if I understand that correctly) if one chooses to.  A teacher is someone who can convey the knowledge.  There are some who can do but cannot teach, because they cannot transfer that knowledge, but they understand for themselves.  Then there are those who can do, but can also articulate the knowledge so that others can learn.  However, as I understand it passing the godan test means that you simply passed the godan test, not a teaching test.  It doesn't bestow teaching ability.  Certainly most would expect that new godan to have had the proper training by that point in time, but as you are probably aware, there are people who have never trained that can pass the godan test.

Does that answer your question?


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Rubber Tanto said:
			
		

> Are you saying that is okay for some godans to not be at the level of godan when teaching?


 
There are a lot of things Bujinkan-wise that I don't feel are ok. That doesn't mean I can really do anything against them.



			
				Rubber Tanto said:
			
		

> Sure. I agree. But that is not what I asked. I asked if an instructor should be competant enough to teach at the level he has been ranked at. Godan is a rank of teaching, yes?


 
Actually, in U?G.P! Hatsumi complains about people who only care about attaining their godan so that they can run off and start teaching, instead of learning more.



			
				Rubber Tanto said:
			
		

> Gym classes and aerobics classes do that for you.


 
Not for the middle-aged and older people who enroll in the Bujinkan because that is their only training option that guarantees they'll be able to keep up physically whilst training.



			
				Rubber Tanto said:
			
		

> What happened to the "Martial" in martial arts?


 
What happened, if you ask me, is this: as Don Roley so eloquently put it, when Hatsumi is demonstrating something in Hombu or Ayase these days, he has to take it down a few notches in terms of intensity, because otherwise there is a very real risk that the maniacs in the crowd will get a little too excited and kill someone. And from this people draw the conclusion that they should always train that way.



			
				Rubber Tanto said:
			
		

> BUT, one thing many of you must realise is that as long as you all sweep aside or ignore something you clearly know to require consideration and regulation to improve or repair it, it will never be improved. It will never be repaired.


 
I've thought about this for a while myself and I am beginning to wonder if this isn't the not-so-pleasant side effect of the "shut up and train" maxim.


----------



## Rich Parsons

ginshun said:
			
		

> As Don said, Hatsumi has nothing to do with ranking in the X-Kans, but if I recall correctly, (and I apologize if this is inaccurate, because I have never belonged to either of them) they both do however have pretty strict guidlines and testing for what a person must know and be able to do to achive specific ranks within their organization. Ranks are not just handed out by Menaka and Tenamura as they deem fit. I assume they could give somebody whatever rank they wanted, but from what I understand, thats not how it is done.
> 
> Edit: According to the Jinenkan websight, the rank testing is "rigorous" amd each level from 3 kyu and up have strict requirements. It also says that only Manaka can cunduct test for 3rd dan and up.



Thanks


----------



## Rubber Tanto

Thank you to all for your replies.
It has shed much light on the subject.
hey Saru, thanks for the welcome, yes the "why was the person graded 1st-4th Dan" question is very important I believe. It could be a good starting point as to setting a standard.




			
				Don Roley said:
			
		

> ...but I really don't see how you expect any of us to do anything about the way Hatsumi grades people. But if you want to repair something, you are going to have to go up to Hatsumi and tell him what he is doing wrong.


 
I can understand that. That is probably a very good suggestion. Don, you have a much better understanding of Japanese culture and etiquette. If I was to draft a short letter, would you be willing to help me phrase it in a manner that was both polite and in Japanese? I'm not sure but I think I read somewhere once that Hatsumi-sensei will not accept letters in English.

Kindest Regards
Nick


----------



## Carol

Rubber Tanto said:
			
		

> I can understand that. That is probably a very good suggestion. Don, you have a much better understanding of Japanese culture and etiquette. If I was to draft a short letter, would you be willing to help me phrase it in a manner that was both polite and in Japanese? I'm not sure but I think I read somewhere once that Hatsumi-sensei will not accept letters in English.
> 
> Kindest Regards
> Nick


 
The entire concept would not be polite in a Japanese environment in any language.


----------



## Andy Moynihan

Rubber Tanto said:
			
		

> Thank you to all for your replies.
> It has shed much light on the subject.
> hey Saru, thanks for the welcome, yes the "why was the person graded 1st-4th Dan" question is very important I believe. It could be a good starting point as to setting a standard.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can understand that. That is probably a very good suggestion. Don, you have a much better understanding of Japanese culture and etiquette. If I was to draft a short letter, would you be willing to help me phrase it in a manner that was both polite and in Japanese? I'm not sure but I think I read somewhere once that Hatsumi-sensei will not accept letters in English.
> 
> Kindest Regards
> Nick


 
Note the popcorn image in his original post.,........


----------



## Rich Parsons

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Oh, and Rich- no one other than members of the Bujinkan look to Hatsumi for ranking.



Thanks Don. I was not trying to Gack the thread just asking a question as it ran across my mind. 

Thanks again.


----------



## Rich Parsons

Don Roley said:
			
		

> This thread is about things in the Bujinkan and I really do not want it sidetracked with problems you don't find in the Bujinkan like the polotics of judging tournaments.
> 
> But..... I found what you wrote to be amazing. I thought that the idea of just ignoring those that don't seem to want to do what is being shown was a Japanese thing. It sounds like Parker took more time to try to point out and correct them than the Japanese would. But they still went on with their own thing and finally moved on. Wow!
> 
> I really can't force people to do anything here. But if people read this, maybe they can start asking themselves if they are the ones doing their own thing instead of what the teacher is showing. I wonder if some of them even know that they are so different from the teacher. I know I have made big mistakes- but I try to look out for them as best I can. Maybe if folks just tried to be a little paranoid about not being so sure that what they are doing and constantly questioned themselves thing would be better.
> 
> But there would still be plenty of morons who would not be willing to fail in front of others and stick to their own thing. A good teacher does not make you do things inside your comfort zone. If you fail, you get a chance to figure out why you did so and work at it until you find the key that insures success. I expect to fall on my face a few times while learning. But there are a lot of folks that can't afford that loss of face. Not only do they not try what the teacher is showing, they sometimes walk around and try to teach others instead of working out themselves.
> 
> But that is a rant for another time.........



At least in my experience in the FMA's, one can learn. And they will try to teach you. If they tell you that "You are giving it back to them" then you are not listening and or trying what they have suggested or taught. 

After that they most likely will not try to teach you that, as you obviously are not interested in learning that move/technqiue/point/concept. 

Which leads people to believe they have more than they might. 

Now this may not be for the whole PI culture, but for the two instructors I have had the pleasure of working with.


----------



## Rubber Tanto

Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> The entire concept would not be polite in a Japanese environment in any language.


 
aah well...you can't blame a guy for trying.


----------



## Dale Seago

Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> The entire concept would not be polite in a Japanese environment in any language.



Sorry Nick, I'm afraid she's right.


----------



## Rubber Tanto

Thanks Dale.
I hope I didn't offend.


----------



## Jonathan Randall

Rubber Tanto said:
			
		

> Thanks Dale.
> I hope I didn't offend.


 
I do see one good thing about your idea - instead of just anonymously complaining on the Internet, like untold numbers of trolls have, you wished to write specifically and personally to the man himself. OTOH, it's nobody's business to tell Mr. Hatsumi _how _to run _his _organization...

BTW, welcome to Martial Talk!


----------



## Carol

Seago sensei :asian:


Hi Nick,

Personally I have a real issue with legislating belt ranks even outside the inapprorpriateness of the idea.   What's missing is the student's drive to demand the best training and perform to be at the best level they can be instead of being a rank collector.   

The seduction to chose medocrity over excellence is strong indeed.

Welcome to MT


----------



## Dale Seago

Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> Seago sensei :asian:


Right back at ye, lass.



> Personally I have a real issue with legislating belt ranks even outside the inapprorpriateness of the idea. What's missing is the student's drive to demand the best training and perform to be at the best level they can be instead of being a rank collector.


Have to agree with you there, and I think this is at the heart of the "rank doesn't really matter in the Bujinkan" thing that seems to so mystify non-Bujinkan practitioners. You seem to be an exception to the rule who "gets it".



> The seduction to chose medocrity over excellence is strong indeed.


Hey, for us guys, seduction is always a powerful influence when directed our way (AKA "Earth boys are easy").

But, um, back to martial art stuff. . .



			
				Rubber Tanto said:
			
		

> Thanks Dale.
> I hope I didn't offend.


Hey Nick, I've known you long enough at MAP and traded enough emails with you to know you mean well. So you certainly haven't offended me. And you haven't yet had your letter translated and sent to Hatsumi sensei, so no offense in that direction either.

As for everyone else here who has now sworn a blood-oath to exterminate you, your descendants, aye an' even yer _ancestors_ untae the sixth generation . . . Och, weel, I cannae help ye there an' am afeered ye're buggered, lad.


----------



## Carol

_Earth Boys are Easy _:rofl: My office-mate asked why I was laughing.  

"Ninjas made me laugh."  She understands


----------



## Kreth

Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> _Earth Boys are Easy _:rofl: My office-mate asked why I was laughing.
> 
> "Ninjas made me laugh." She understands


The plural of ninja is ninja...


----------



## Cryozombie

Kreth said:
			
		

> The plural of ninja is ninja...


 
But are we a Murder of Ninja?  A Gaggle of Ninja?  A POD of ninja?


----------



## Kreth

Technopunk said:
			
		

> But are we a Murder of Ninja? A Gaggle of Ninja? A POD of ninja?


Ah... the correct term is a slaughter of ninja. :uhyeah:


----------



## Cryozombie

Kreth said:
			
		

> Ah... the correct term is a slaughter of ninja. :uhyeah:


 
I see.  Thats unfortunate, I was leaning twords "A Stealth of Ninja"


----------



## Kreth

Technopunk said:
			
		

> I see. Thats unfortunate, I was leaning twords "A Stealth of Ninja"


And let's not forget a Comedy of Neo-ninja...


----------



## Rich Parsons

Technopunk said:
			
		

> But are we a Murder of Ninja?  A Gaggle of Ninja?  A POD of ninja?



Personally I thought a Fair of Ninja had a certain ring to it. But a Slaughter or Stealth sounds good as well.


----------



## Kreth

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Personally I thought a Fair of Ninja had a certain ring to it. But a Slaughter or Stealth sounds good as well.


Except we don't do fairs (well, maybe the odd carnival). We ninja are all about death, dismemberment, and loud guitars (except when we're being stealthy). :ultracool


----------



## Rich Parsons

Kreth said:
			
		

> Except we don't do fairs (well, maybe the odd carnival). We ninja are all about death, dismemberment, and loud guitars (except when we're being stealthy). :ultracool



Well is just had a ring to it, and the hidden stealth factor before the "death, dismemberment, and loud guitars" began.  

But as I am not a practitioner, I have no say in it.


----------



## Carol

Kreth said:
			
		

> Except we don't do fairs (well, maybe the odd carnival). We ninja are all about death, dismemberment, and loud guitars (except when we're being stealthy). :ultracool


 
Well dang, let me warm my Boogie up now!!  :supcool:


----------



## shiro

Please explain?


----------



## Carol

MESA Boogie Mark III Combo.  A damn fine tube guitar amp, if I may say so.   With a Celestion, not an EV, and EL34's on the outside.


----------



## Andy Moynihan

Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> MESA Boogie Mark III Combo. A damn fine tube guitar amp, if I may say so. With a Celestion, not an EV, and EL34's on the outside.


 


8-()***********


----------



## Dale Seago

Technopunk said:
			
		

> But are we a Murder of Ninja?  A Gaggle of Ninja?  A POD of ninja?




Hmmm. . .Well, given the meaning of the root word _shinobu_ as "to hide or conceal", perhaps. . .

A concealment of ninja?

Or if you want to go with a certain site's concepts, . . .

An outflipping of ninja?


----------



## Don Roley

Has anyone of you bozos considered asking the guy that does the podcast "Ask a Ninja" about what to call a group of ninjas?:whip:


----------



## Rich Parsons

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Has anyone of you bozos considered asking the guy that does the podcast "Ask a Ninja" about what to call a group of ninjas?:whip:



Don,

Why would we want to do that.


----------



## Rubber Tanto

Well my son has a teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle comic where a "plague of ninja" sweep across the rooftop...does that make it the official term?


----------



## Carol

Rubber Tanto said:
			
		

> Well my son has a teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle comic where a "plague of ninja" sweep across the rooftop...does that make it the official term?


 
Dang.  I was hoping it was an Intrigue of Ninja.


----------



## Don Roley

Rubber Tanto said:
			
		

> If I walked into a dojo and saw an instructor with the rank of Godan, shouldn't it be perfectly logical for me to assume that what he has the ability to teach as a representative of the bujinkan is that of what Hatsumi would consider to be godan level?



Ok, another subject for a rant.

Rubber Tanto is asking about people that teach at a fifth dan Bujinkan level because they are fifth dan.

Well, I have seen stuff from people that were clearly qualified for their rank who taught stuff that was not fifth dan Bujinkan level _because they were not teaching Bujinkan at all._

Someone may be fully qualified to teach the kihon happo and stuff like that, but what can you do if they teach other stuff and yet still call it Bujinkan?

People are taking stuff from BJJ, FMA and otther arts and teaching it to their students while letting them think it is Bujinkan. That is just plain wrong. I have actually had people try to justify this type of thing by asking a, "well, have you ever heard Hatsumi say you _should not_ do a jumping spinning back kick to the head" type of question.

Hey, there is nothing wrong with other arts. But they are other arts. They do things differently for damn good reasons. It is like trying to figure out which is better, a mini-van, a Ferrari or a 18 wheel truck. The answer is it depends on what you are trying to do. And you can't try to get everything from all three. If you want to haul a lot of cargo you have to give up on being as fast as the ferrari- period. Everything from the tires up are different because they fill a very different need from the ground up. 

So sometimes when  people mix arts together it looks like Frankenstien's monster with some of the pieces working against others. Some people can pull it off if they are skilled in everything. But it is plain wrong to take FMA knife fighting and pass it off as Japanese. If you teach FMA, tell your students you are FMA. Don't let them think that what they are doing is Bujinkan if it is not.


----------



## Carol

Don Roley said:
			
		

> So sometimes when people mix arts together it looks like Frankenstien's monster with some of the pieces working against others. Some people can pull it off if they are skilled in everything. But it is plain wrong to take FMA knife fighting and pass it off as Japanese. If you teach FMA, tell your students you are FMA. Don't let them think that what they are doing is Bujinkan if it is not.


 
Plus there is no chain-of-custody for one's training in the other arts.  Personally I would want to learn want to learn FMAs from an Escrimador ... not from a Kenpo instructor or a sensei in the Buj.  

Without the background, there is no way for the student to tell to tell if the instructor has proper training and teaching experience in the other arts, or if they are simply passing off some hacked up tricks he picked up from his drinking buddies.  It doesn't do the instructor, the student, or the art any good.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Don Roley said:
			
		

> People are taking stuff from BJJ, FMA and otther arts and teaching it to their students while letting them think it is Bujinkan. That is just plain wrong. I have actually had people try to justify this type of thing by asking a, "well, have you ever heard Hatsumi say you _should not_ do a jumping spinning back kick to the head" type of question.
> 
> Hey, there is nothing wrong with other arts. But they are other arts. They do things differently for damn good reasons. It is like trying to figure out which is better, a mini-van, a Ferrari or a 18 wheel truck. The answer is it depends on what you are trying to do. And you can't try to get everything from all three. If you want to haul a lot of cargo you have to give up on being as fast as the ferrari- period. Everything from the tires up are different because they fill a very different need from the ground up.
> 
> So sometimes when people mix arts together it looks like Frankenstien's monster with some of the pieces working against others. Some people can pull it off if they are skilled in everything. But it is plain wrong to take FMA knife fighting and pass it off as Japanese. If you teach FMA, tell your students you are FMA. Don't let them think that what they are doing is Bujinkan if it is not.


 
Now, I think you know I would never look to other arts to find something I would perceive as "missing" within the Bujinkan. However, at the risk of repeating myself - if those hip bridging techniques in the What Is Martial Arts video had never been demonstrated by uncle H, would anyone have assumed that you can do that and still claim that what you're doing is Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu?


----------



## Don Roley

Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> Plus there is no chain-of-custody for one's training in the other arts.  Personally I would want to learn want to learn FMAs from an Escrimador ... not from a Kenpo instructor or a sensei in the Buj.
> 
> Without the background, there is no way for the student to tell to tell if the instructor has proper training and teaching experience in the other arts, or if they are simply passing off some hacked up tricks he picked up from his drinking buddies.  It doesn't do the instructor, the student, or the art any good.



It is not just that. I have run across a lot of people who seem to fit Marc MacYoung's definition of martial arts pirates. http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/pirates.htmirate4:  And I have no compassion for them. Heck, compassion is not a Roley word.

But I come down hard on people who call what they do 'ninjutsu' when they don't really know what the subject it. If someone does a spinning back kick they would never dare call it aikido. And if they dropped stick and knife fighting from Kali due to it being "outdated" (don't laugh- I have seen it) and yet still call it Kali then _real_ Kali players would be on them like Clinton on an intern. But people seem to think that _anything_ they do is ninjutsu. And thus they can use the term to describe what they do.

Let me be clear..... I have never met Brian VanCise, never seen his videos and never talked to anyone about him. I have no idea of how good he is. But I can tell that people walking into his school will know that he has experience in Bujinkan but what he teaches is called *Defensive Tactics* and not Bujinkan. So if they see something in the Bujinkan that differs from what they learned in his class, they know the reason. He is not teaching something he learned from someone outside of the Bujinkan and letting others think it was Bujinkan. Contrast that with some guy I just saw on Youtube who claims to be doing Bujinkan in Texas (but not under Luke Molitor- the best Bujinkan sword teacher in America IMO) who did some sword stuff that did not impress me overly (cut tatami, not coke bottles) and did a very complicated and flashy _noto_ that I have never seen a Japanese Bujinkan shihan do.

Oh, and Brian keeps coming to Japan to learn more about Bujinkan. That makes him different from 99 percent of the guys who claim to teach their own style of ninjutsu. And he does not even claim to teach ninjutsu, he teaches Defenseive Tactics. He keeps trying to improve himself. And his students know that if they learn a movement from him that there might be someone in FMA or Bujinkan that may give them more insight into the move.

I have been accused of being a Japan Elitist. It's a fair cop IMO. But it just seems a natural thing to me that the best people in the art of ninjutsu are still living in Japan with a lot they can teach. If you claim to be teaching the art, then you need to be getting the most and best instruction you can in the subject for the sake of your students. When people like Brian who don't even claim to be teaching Bujinkan or ninjutsu keep showing up to learn more from Hatsumi, what kind of respect can I have for someone who declares himself the head of his own style of ninjutsu but never challenges himself to come train with someone like Hatsumi?inky1: 

We *all* need to get better. Someone who claims to be teaching ninjutsu needs to always try to get better in ninjutsu from people that know more than them. I know guys who have left the Bujinkan and gone to other arts. They still try to get better in their new art and  I can respect that. What I can't respect is people that claim to teach something and yet won't go to the best teachers in the subject and make the types of patches MacYoung talks about to cover their lack of knowledge while putting the blame on the art.

I hope that made sense.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Hey Don,

Thanks for the kind words! In my opinion if someone wants to train/teach Budo Taijutsu then one most go to the *source* and learn the moves as Soke teaches them. If one is to teach Budo Taijutsu then should you not teach it as it has been taught to you. Within that of course there is a lot of free play through various henka so you can really explore but you need the *foundation* in order to do that. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (and that can take many years)

The best people in Budo Taijutsu are in Japan! So I would encourage everyone to go and enjoy Soke and the Shihan's unique Budo in person!That does not mean that there are not really good teachers throughout the world, just that the very best are in Japan. If you cannot make it to Japan regularly, then train with Shidoshi and Shihan that go regularly or those that live in Japan and make trips back to the states or your respective country. Shihan's Legare, Pierce, Seago, Martin, Asuncion, Molitar, Young and many, many more. (sorry if I missed anybody)

Really, in training in any martial system whether Budo Taijutsu, Modern Arnis, Silat, etc. If you want to practice that particular art then you need to seek out qualified instruction from a teacher in that art. In Budo Taijutsu the pinnacle would be Hatsumi Soke. In Modern Arnis one of the many Master's, Senior Master's, Master of Tapi Tapi's, Datu's. In BJJ you would be blessed to train with Helio, Rorion, Rickson or Royce. (plus many other's) 

Most importantly though is that no matter your skill level or your ability in any art you need to train and continue to have people teach you. We are all trying to improve ourselves and everyone needs to have somone critique them. 

As to those that want to just teach anything and everything and heap it into a big basket and call in Ninjutsu and not seek out training from the *source*. Well, we cannot stop them but I for one sure am not going to bless what they are doing.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


----------



## Rich Parsons

Don Roley said:
			
		

> It is not just that. I have run across a lot of people who seem to fit Marc MacYoung's definition of martial arts pirates. http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/pirates.htmirate4: And I have no compassion for them. Heck, compassion is not a Roley word.
> 
> But I come down hard on people who call what they do 'ninjutsu' when they don't really know what the subject it. If someone does a spinning back kick they would never dare call it aikido. And if they dropped stick and knife fighting from Kali due to it being "outdated" (don't laugh- I have seen it) and yet still call it Kali then _real_ Kali players would be on them like Clinton on an intern. But people seem to think that _anything_ they do is ninjutsu. And thus they can use the term to describe what they do.
> 
> Let me be clear..... I have never met Brian VanCise, never seen his videos and never talked to anyone about him. I have no idea of how good he is. But I can tell that people walking into his school will know that he has experience in Bujinkan but what he teaches is called *Defensive Tactics* and not Bujinkan. So if they see something in the Bujinkan that differs from what they learned in his class, they know the reason. He is not teaching something he learned from someone outside of the Bujinkan and letting others think it was Bujinkan. Contrast that with some guy I just saw on Youtube who claims to be doing Bujinkan in Texas (but not under Luke Molitor- the best Bujinkan sword teacher in America IMO) who did some sword stuff that did not impress me overly (cut tatami, not coke bottles) and did a very complicated and flashy _noto_ that I have never seen a Japanese Bujinkan shihan do.
> 
> Oh, and Brian keeps coming to Japan to learn more about Bujinkan. That makes him different from 99 percent of the guys who claim to teach their own style of ninjutsu. And he does not even claim to teach ninjutsu, he teaches Defenseive Tactics. He keeps trying to improve himself. And his students know that if they learn a movement from him that there might be someone in FMA or Bujinkan that may give them more insight into the move.
> 
> I have been accused of being a Japan Elitist. It's a fair cop IMO. But it just seems a natural thing to me that the best people in the art of ninjutsu are still living in Japan with a lot they can teach. If you claim to be teaching the art, then you need to be getting the most and best instruction you can in the subject for the sake of your students. When people like Brian who don't even claim to be teaching Bujinkan or ninjutsu keep showing up to learn more from Hatsumi, what kind of respect can I have for someone who declares himself the head of his own style of ninjutsu but never challenges himself to come train with someone like Hatsumi?inky1:
> 
> We *all* need to get better. Someone who claims to be teaching ninjutsu needs to always try to get better in ninjutsu from people that know more than them. I know guys who have left the Bujinkan and gone to other arts. They still try to get better in their new art and I can respect that. What I can't respect is people that claim to teach something and yet won't go to the best teachers in the subject and make the types of patches MacYoung talks about to cover their lack of knowledge while putting the blame on the art.
> 
> I hope that made sense.


 

Don,

Here is the question you have to ask yourself about being a Japanese Elitist. If Hatsumi and the other seniors of the art that you respect as the best were in the US, would you still say that this group of people are the ones to train with and not some of those who staid behind. 

My guess is that you would still say the quality of those you reference no matter where they are, would be the ones to go train with. It just so happens that those you reference live in Japan and Love Japan and most likely would never leave Japan. 

So, I do not think you are Japanese Elitist. I just think you have an opinion  (* educated opinion per your experience *) on who is the best and they just happen to be Japanese from Japam who do a Japanese Art. 

I also respect Brian V's training method, for he is willing to train with all and learn, but does not try to pass it off as something else. 

Best regards


----------



## Don Roley

Brian R. VanCise said:
			
		

> The best people in Budo Taijutsu are in Japan! So I would encourage everyone to go and enjoy Soke and the Shihan's unique Budo in person!That does not mean that there are not really good teachers throughout the world, just that the very best are in Japan. If you cannot make it to Japan regularly, then train with Shidoshi and Shihan that go regularly or those that live in Japan and make trips back to the states or your respective country. Shihan's Legare, Pierce, Seago, Martin, Asuncion, Molitar, Young and many, many more. (sorry if I missed anybody)



When I say the best people live in Japan, I am talking about Hatsumi, Noguchi and others who have been training in this art longer than most of us have been alive.

It just seems natural to me that you seek out the best instruction you can. If you can't make it to Japan to train with the best, you seek out someone who is better than you. And part of being better is trying to improve yourself so if they are not going to Japan, they are going to someone who does. So at some point there should be a link to Japan.

But I have seen people that do train in Japan, or at least have, teach things from other arts and tried to claim it was ninjutsu. I remember doing one demo for someone (a nutcase who left the Bujinkan after some heavy encouragement) and watching him do his stuff for the crowd. He did some BJJ and kept telling the crowd it was Bujinkan ninjutsu. I was standing behind Nagase and Someya as he was doing this and the conversation they had was interesting to say the least.

If what you are teaching is not Bujinkan, don't call it Bujinkan. That seems simple enough to me. Why should we worry if a fifth dan won't teach well when we don't even know if what he teaches is Bujinkan or not. We would need a strong, centralized orginization to police what everyone is teaching to prevent that type of thing. And I do not see that being possible. Those that step forward to try to police the Bujinkan in Hatsumi's name are the subject for another rant of mine.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Don Roley said:
			
		

> When I say the best people live in Japan, I am talking about Hatsumi, Noguchi and others who have been training in this art longer than most of us have been alive.
> 
> It just seems natural to me that you seek out the best instruction you can. If you can't make it to Japan to train with the best, you seek out someone who is better than you. And part of being better is trying to improve yourself so if they are not going to Japan, they are going to someone who does. So at some point there should be a link to Japan.
> 
> But I have seen people that do train in Japan, or at least have, teach things from other arts and tried to claim it was ninjutsu. I remember doing one demo for someone (a nutcase who left the Bujinkan after some heavy encouragement) and watching him do his stuff for the crowd. He did some BJJ and kept telling the crowd it was Bujinkan ninjutsu. I was standing behind Nagase and Someya as he was doing this and the conversation they had was interesting to say the least.
> 
> If what you are teaching is not Bujinkan, don't call it Bujinkan. That seems simple enough to me. Why should we worry if a fifth dan won't teach well when we don't even know if what he teaches is Bujinkan or not. We would need a strong, centralized orginization to police what everyone is teaching to prevent that type of thing. And I do not see that being possible. Those that step forward to try to police the Bujinkan in Hatsumi's name are the subject for another rant of mine.


 
Yes Don, we are definately on the same page. I referance the best teachers in Japan as Soke, Noguchi, Nagato, Someya, Shiraishi, Nagase, Senno, Oguri, etc. My wording may have been a little off and in rereading it I realized that. I referanced the other's that I mentioned as individuals that live or travel back to Japan to learn and then travel back to the States and teach regularly. So if you cannot make it to Japan to train with Soke and the Japanese Shihan then train with those that live there or visit and then travel back here to the States. (or around the world) Hopefully that is worded a little better. Anyways, we are on the same page. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


----------



## Kreth

I think it's common sense. The best instructors for a Japanese system are likely to be in Japan, similarly with Krav Maga (Israel), Sambo (former Soviet Union), and BJJ (Brazil).


----------



## Don Roley

Kreth said:
			
		

> I think it's common sense. The best instructors for a Japanese system are likely to be in Japan, similarly with Krav Maga (Israel), Sambo (former Soviet Union), and BJJ (Brazil).



But you know, there are people that actually tell others that they are all you need to learn a Japanese art. I can point to people in Australia, Texas and other places to show you folks that say they don't need to learn anymore from Japan to teach their Japanese art and you don't need to do anything but go to train with them.

Maybe in a few decades that may be the case. But right now, the guys who have trained the longest in the art with the best understanding of what is being said are all Japanese. If some people go to Japan, learn the language and start learning the art, then someday when all the guys like Noguchi are dead they may just be the ones with the most experience in the art after a few decades. But not today.

And yet there are folks that claim that there is nothing left to learn from Hatsumi and the shihan and go their own way. Some of them still send in their dues every year and give lip service to learning. And some of them even come to Japan to get their cards stamped, "see- here is a picture of me training in Japan!" But these guys are doing more wing chun than Bujinkan when I look at them.

This art deserves better.


----------



## Dale Seago

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Let me be clear..... I have never met Brian VanCise, never seen his videos and never talked to anyone about him. I have no idea of how good he is. But I can tell that people walking into his school will know that he has experience in Bujinkan but what he teaches is called *Defensive Tactics* and not Bujinkan. So if they see something in the Bujinkan that differs from what they learned in his class, they know the reason. He is not teaching something he learned from someone outside of the Bujinkan and letting others think it was Bujinkan. Contrast that with some guy I just saw on Youtube who claims to be doing Bujinkan in Texas (but not under Luke Molitor- the best Bujinkan sword teacher in America IMO) who did some sword stuff that did not impress me overly (cut tatami, not coke bottles) and did a very complicated and flashy _noto_ that I have never seen a Japanese Bujinkan shihan do.
> 
> http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=592583#post592583



I'm guessing the latter is this guy:

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=HonGyakku

His profile does say he's affiliated with the Bujinkan Spiritwarriors Dojo (http://www.spiritwarriors.com/index1.htm), which would make him a student of Jay Hardy; and he doesn't mention any other martial art (sword or otherwise), leaving people to assume that what he's doing in his videos is Bujinkan.

I've only watched the first 35 seconds of the first video, and it was more than enough to tell me that it's not only NOT Bujinkan -- it would be a very poor representation of any authentic Japanese sword school. I can't help wondering whether Hardy sensei has any idea that someone claiming to be his student is behaving in such a publicly irresponsible manner.


----------



## Cryozombie

Don Roley said:
			
		

> I can point to people in Texas to show you folks that say they don't need to learn anymore from Japan to teach their Japanese art and you don't need to do anything but go to train with them.



Don, 

Quit makin fun of the round guy, hes not around to defend himself anymore.

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Kreth said:
			
		

> I think it's common sense. The best instructors for a Japanese system are likely to be in Japan, similarly with Krav Maga (Israel), Sambo (former Soviet Union), and BJJ (Brazil).


 
*Yes it really is just common sence*!  That does not mean that there are not simply fantastic instructors throughout the rest of the world but that the best are probably going to be where the headmaster of the system is from.

In the case of Budo Taijutsu there is a very easy answer to that : Japan!

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Brian R. VanCise

Having said that there are some great instructor's right here in the States that I would like to train with!  Dale Seago, Luke Molitar, Dick Severance just to name a few and our very own MartialTalk expert Jeff Velton! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  Budo Taijutsu is blessed with tons of great instructors in the States here and I would be remiss if I did not say that I am fortunate to be able to train with Shidoshi Bart Uguccioni whenever I get down to the Dexter Bujinkan Dojo or he comes up here to Alma. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Don Roley

Brian R. VanCise said:
			
		

> *Yes it really is just common sence*!  That does not mean that there are not simply fantastic instructors throughout the rest of the world but that the best are probably going to be where the headmaster of the system is from.
> 
> In the case of Budo Taijutsu there is a very easy answer to that : Japan!



That is a good point. I have travelled outside of Japan to train with guys with a lot of street experience. I have trained in knife under guys that have killed with them. It is kind of rare to find that kind of experience in Japan.

But if what you are doing is called Bujinkan, or even ninjutsu, it seems to me that the best experts in that particular subject are still in Japan. They have been doing the art since before most of us were born. They understand the ancient texts better than we do and have more experience than any of us with the history and culture.

So if you want to get good at the subject of ninjutsu, you need a link to them or go to them yourself. I have had troubles with people that have decided that they can start their own ninjutsu systems without even once going to see these experts and learn all they can from them.

Hey, if I want to do something, I am going to do the best I can at it. If I want to start my own system with a specific name, I am going to learn all I can about it _before_ I use that name. So it amazes me when I see these folks declare themselves soke without even bothering to challenge themselves to go see and train with the best. There are guys like Noguchi who have been training with Hatsumi for about 50 years and still come to training. How on earth can I respect some guy with only a few years _or less_ of experience that thinks he can head his own style of ninjutsu?


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Don Roley said:
			
		

> So if you want to get good at the subject of ninjutsu, you need a link to them or go to them yourself. I have had troubles with people that have decided that they can start their own ninjutsu systems without even once going to see these experts and learn all they can from them.
> 
> Hey, if I want to do something, I am going to do the best I can at it. If I want to start my own system with a specific name, I am going to learn all I can about it _before_ I use that name. So it amazes me when I see these folks declare themselves soke without even bothering to challenge themselves to go see and train with the best. There are guys like Noguchi who have been training with Hatsumi for about 50 years and still come to training. How on earth can I respect some guy with only a few years _or less_ of experience that thinks he can head his own style of ninjutsu?


 
I am with you completely Don!

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Kreth

Brian R. VanCise said:
			
		

> and our very own MartialTalk expert Jeff Velton!


Let me just correct this. First, it's Velt*e*n. Second, I'm far, far, down the pecking order. There's a few judan that I think hit like little girls, but there's plenty of good instructors in the US before you get to me...


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## Brian R. VanCise

Kreth said:
			
		

> Let me just correct this. First, it's Velt*e*n. Second, I'm far, far, down the pecking order. There's a few judan that I think hit like little girls, but there's plenty of good instructors in the US before you get to me...


 
Sorry Jeff about the last name. It seem's that your name like mine probably get's butchered alot! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 As to the pecking order well from all acounts you are quite good at Budo Taijutsu! (at least that is what a little birdie said)

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Kreth

Brian R. VanCise said:
			
		

> As to the pecking order well from all acounts you are quite good at Budo Taijutsu! (at least that is what a little birdie said)


I have an open expense account with the birdie union to spread the word of my martial awesomeness...


----------



## Rich Parsons

Kreth said:
			
		

> I have an open expense account with the birdie union to spread the word of my martial awesomeness...


 
And he is not afraid to demonstrate "throwing the rock" on me.  

I wonder if the little birdie union accepts payment in grain or insects, or some other form of payment. 

Seriously, I did enjoy working out with Jeff at the Martial Talk Meet & Greet Last year. We had fun together.


----------



## Kreth

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Seriously, I did enjoy working out with Jeff at the Martial Talk Meet & Greet Last year. We had fun together.


I think the others working near us were concerned about getting crushed, though. Kind of like the Tokyo civilians in a Godzilla movie... :lol:


----------



## Rich Parsons

Kreth said:
			
		

> I think the others working near us were concerned about getting crushed, though. Kind of like the Tokyo civilians in a Godzilla movie... :lol:


 
:lol: Those Punny Mortals  We could have fallen on them or rolled over on them not not worried at all for ourselves. MWUHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHA (* Cough Sputter Cough *)

Back to our normal Rants.


----------



## shesulsa

Kreth said:
			
		

> I think the others working near us were concerned about getting crushed, though. Kind of like the Tokyo civilians in a Godzilla movie... :lol:


:uhoh:  *checks to see if tickets are transferrable*


----------



## Don Roley

I think that maybe threads like this have served some purpose.

Today after class I went to grab the vacum cleaner to help clean. Someone stepped up to me and said, "You did a lot for us for translating. Let us do the cleaning."

I really don't mind pushing a vacum around the room. But it is damn nice to realize someone notices and appreciates what little I do.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Hey Don,

It is good to see that your translating skills are being appreciated!

I know for one that I really appreciate everyone that translates in 
person and also on the DVD and video's that Soke makes.  Not to
forget those individuals that translate the books to english.  Writing
books myself I really appreciate the work that they do translating it
from Kanji to English. (that has to be very hard)

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Rich Parsons

Don Roley said:
			
		

> I think that maybe threads like this have served some purpose.
> 
> Today after class I went to grab the vacum cleaner to help clean. Someone stepped up to me and said, "You did a lot for us for translating. Let us do the cleaning."
> 
> I really don't mind pushing a vacum around the room. But it is damn nice to realize someone notices and appreciates what little I do.




Don,

Side Rant here: I find it funny how when some get to certain ranks or years of training they no longer wish or offer or are willing to help clean up or set up for training. 

I agree it is nice when people appreciate the little things one does.

:asian:


----------



## Don Roley

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Side Rant here: I find it funny how when some get to certain ranks or years of training they no longer wish or offer or are willing to help clean up or set up for training.



Personally, I think it is a side effect of them thinking that they are the teacher no matter where they go. I had a situation a few weeks ago where someone asked me if I minded if they could point something out to me. I knew this guy and what he was thinking of pointing out to me. It was a case of him doing something that I do not do due to my training and experience. Plus he was one of those guys that had to be the expert in everything. I looked him straight in the eye and coldly said, "no you *may not!*" He grins like it is a joke and tries to position my hands.

He survived the experience- barely. There was a few people who turned to look at the exchange I think and I never saw him the next day or since.


----------



## Rich Parsons

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Personally, I think it is a side effect of them thinking that they are the teacher no matter where they go. I had a situation a few weeks ago where someone asked me if I minded if they could point something out to me. I knew this guy and what he was thinking of pointing out to me. It was a case of him doing something that I do not do due to my training and experience. Plus he was one of those guys that had to be the expert in everything. I looked him straight in the eye and coldly said, "no you *may not!*" He grins like it is a joke and tries to position my hands.
> 
> He survived the experience- barely. There was a few people who turned to look at the exchange I think and I never saw him the next day or since.


 
NICE !  I like this approach


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> NICE !  I like this approach


 
I have to agree with Rich that this is a good approach!

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Cryozombie

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> NICE !  I like this approach


 
I dunno, I think I would have started yelling "I need an adult!"

or maybe 

"Thats MY purse" and kicked him between the legs.


----------



## Don Roley

Technopunk said:
			
		

> I dunno, I think I would have started yelling "I need an adult!"
> 
> or maybe
> 
> "Thats MY purse" and kicked him between the legs.



I got better results with the way I did things. He was obvioulsy extremly frightened of me and tried to explain that he thought I was joking. Maybe he really was stupid enough to think that. But I suspect that is that is the case, his desire to appear to be an expert helped blind him to the truth.

I really dislike people that always have to showing you things *not* to help you, but to establish that they know more than you. Especially since so damn few of them are half as good as they would like you to think.


----------



## Cryozombie

Don Roley said:
			
		

> I got better results with the way I did things.



Hey, Im sure... I was just interjecting a joke... the first from "Family Guy," the second from "King of the Hill"

I will remember, when I come to Japan, if I see you, not to correct your Taijutsu.  

As if.  LOL.


----------



## Don Roley

Technopunk said:
			
		

> I will remember, when I come to Japan, if I see you, not to correct your Taijutsu.



It is not that. I really apreciate input from my partners sometimes. Even the newest newbie can point out that the teacher seemed to be getting the elbow to face the ceiling but I don't seem to be doing it.

It is the whole _attitude_ thing that I get from some folks when they try to point out something to play alpha male. Heck, there are guys that come to Japan, go to training with Hatsumi and then wander around the room sticking their nose in other people's training to show off that _they_ don't need to practice what was just showed. They have to go around and tell other people what to do.

I can accept that from people like Noguchi. He has been going to class with Hatsumi on a weekly basis since before most of us were born and is his right hand man for training. But I have snarled at a few folks in the past about this matter.

Oh, and you should have realized that I might not know the cultural references you used since I don't have American Television here. I do get some things on cable, but I can't bother to watch most of the stuff.


----------



## Carol

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Oh, and you should have realized that I might not know the cultural references you used since I don't have American Television here. I do get some things on cable, but I can't bother to watch most of the stuff.


 
Nothing wrong with that, Don.  I live here and can't be bothered with it


----------



## Cryozombie

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Oh, and you should have realized that I might not know the cultural references you used since I don't have American Television here. I do get some things on cable, but I can't bother to watch most of the stuff.



It wasnt specifically for you... I was throwing it out there to see if anyone got it.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Don Roley said:


> It is not that. I really apreciate input from my partners sometimes. Even the newest newbie can point out that the teacher seemed to be getting the elbow to face the ceiling but I don't seem to be doing it.
> 
> It is the whole _attitude_ thing that I get from some folks when they try to point out something to play alpha male. Heck, there are guys that come to Japan, go to training with Hatsumi and then wander around the room sticking their nose in other people's training to show off that _they_ don't need to practice what was just showed. They have to go around and tell other people what to do.
> 
> I can accept that from people like Noguchi. He has been going to class with Hatsumi on a weekly basis since before most of us were born and is his right hand man for training. But I have snarled at a few folks in the past about this matter.
> 
> Oh, and you should have realized that I might not know the cultural references you used since I don't have American Television here. I do get some things on cable, but I can't bother to watch most of the stuff.


 
Don, 
I sometimes find this type of behavior stems from someone just not wanting to train and instead wanting to teach.  However, if you are in Japan to train then you should train and let Soke and the Shihan do the
teaching.

I remember last time I was their that George Ohashi pointed something out to me and I was very thankful that he did so.  Understanding that he is there probably for almost every class and that he took the time to point out my error makes me appreciate what he did even more.


----------



## Don Roley

A couple of points.

I see this mainly on the internet, but it is not always limited to the internet and not always relating to ninjutsu. But because a lot of information we got about ninjutsu history and such at the beggining was mistaken it seems we talk about history and such a lot more than most arts.

First of all, I have noticed that a lot of people do not seem to be searching for the truth in on-line discussions. They seek instead to be right. Again, this is not limited to ninjutsu or even the internet. But I notice _a lot_ while reading many conversations. People seem to take a position and think that any attept to tell them that they are wrong is a threat to them. We can be talking about whether the ninja used straight blades, or if the ninja were oppressed minorities and you will see the same thing time after time. Someone will make a statement and defend it to the death no matter how much evidence is shown them. They will grasp at any straw, twist any argument and confuse the issue as much as they can rather than admit that they were wrong.

But you know, if the Bujinkan we do have an alternative to this type of screaming for many discussions. Some subjects can be answered by Hatsumi if you only bother to ask him. There are directions on George Ohashi's site on how to write to him. So instead of arguing if a certain ex-member is still in good graces with Hatsumi and you can still get rank from him why not just write Hatsumi and ask him yes or no. There really is no need to scream at each other on the internet over a lot of things like this. Most Bujinkan members have teachers that come to Japan. If you want to know something about something, ask your teacher to ask someone in Japan. The Japanese shihan are usually pretty open to discussions about swords and Japanese history as well as other less public matters. So, why try to say something that you will try to defend later if you are not certain?

Second rant. I have seen a lot of abuse of the use of anologies. Anologies are good things if one person knows a lot about something and is trying to put it into terms that the other person can understand. They are not perfect, but they are a good, quick way of letting those with a lot of knowledge help those with less to come to an understanding. If we were talking about the _shoen_ system in Japan I might briefly explain that it was close to the sharecropper system you had in America. That is not the complete truth, but you would know enough to understand when I talked about how the people tilling the land did not own it.

The problem is when those with less knowledge try to exploit and use the anology themselves. Instead of knowing something up down and backwards, they look at it rather shallowly and try to understand it in the context of something else more familiar. So if they see that the _shoen_ system had some similarities with sharecropping, they would assume that the social stigmas about being a farmer on a _shoen_ was the same as those that had to sharecrop in the American south. Some people even seem to want to use anologies to make a nice little reality that they are familiar with and benifits them rather than seek out the truth. People try to compare the ninja to the indians so often I want to gag. And they don't just make similarities, some of them actually think that going out and trying Indian religious practices are a part of ninjutsu training. That is only one example. If you don't really, _really_ know the subject leave the anologies to others.

Again, this is not particular to ninjutsu or the internet. But because we talk more about history than other arts seem to, these problems seem to pop up more with us than with JKD or BJJ.


----------



## exile

Don Roley said:


> A couple of points.
> 
> I have seen a lot of abuse of the use of anologies. Anologies are good things if one person knows a lot about something and is trying to put it into terms that the other person can understand. They are not perfect, but they are a good, quick way of letting those with a lot of knowledge help those with less to come to an understanding. If we were talking about the _shoen_ system in Japan I might briefly explain that it was close to the sharecropper system you had in America. That is not the complete truth, but you would know enough to understand when I talked about how the people tilling the land did not own it.
> 
> The problem is when those with less knowledge try to exploit and use the anology themselves. Instead of knowing something up down and backwards, they look at it rather shallowly and try to understand it in the context of something else more familiar. So if they see that the _shoen_ system had some similarities with sharecropping, they would assume that the social stigmas about being a farmer on a _shoen_ was the same as those that had to sharecrop in the American south. Some people even seem to want to use anologies to make a nice little reality that they are familiar with and benifits them rather than seek out the truth. People try to compare the ninja to the indians so often I want to gag. And they don't just make similarities, some of them actually think that going out and trying Indian religious practices are a part of ninjutsu training. That is only one example. If you don't really, _really_ know the subject leave the anologies to others.



Dan---this is a really interesting and important point. Analogies are very seductive ways to argue---they're often vivid and seem to make the point with a high-impact image that people find persuasive. But here's the rub: the analogy (or simile, or whatever) may not be the right one for the case, and may in fact be just another instance of one of the claims being debated. The analogy can't be a conclusive argument for the point because, in the absence of any further evidence and argument, it's no more than a restatement of the original point. This struck me very forcibly once reading a column by the late Mike Mentzer about high intensity workouts as the most efficent way to build muscle tissue. He used the analogy of a revolver, where the hammer, released from its cocked position, causes the detonation of the explosive in the round, and all of a sudden, everything changes: we have a bullet on its way to the target---all on behalf of his belief that a single `emergency call' from an overstressed neuromuscular unit will trigger muscle growth. The analogy was the climax of his argument---but the problem is, if you don't buy his model, then the analogy is simply misguided. There's a different analogy, that of the way a ski binding releases---sudden shocks shouldn't allow a release, but a slow twisting force should gradually push the binding to a point where the binding finally yields a release. It's not like there's a sudden threshhold that's crossed; rather, it's the whole profile of the effect---a steady continuing torque that the binding recognizes (corrsponding to a very different model of high intensity strength training). Mentzer triumphantly delivered his bullet analogy in his column as though it _confirmed_ his original statements, whereas it really only _echoed_ them. This kind of confusion of analogies with actual arguments happens all the time, and seems to be implicated in the kind of cases you're talking about. Analogies are good servants but bad masters...


----------



## jks9199

Don Roley said:


> First of all, I have noticed that a lot of people do not seem to be searching for the truth in on-line discussions. They seek instead to be right. Again, this is not limited to ninjutsu or even the internet. But I notice _a lot_ while reading many conversations. People seem to take a position and think that any attept to tell them that they are wrong is a threat to them.



Many people don't want to discuss any issue; they want you to hear their opinion or what they know, and agree with them.  It's a common fault, and I think it's often more common in martial arts discussions.  (And, yes, I've fallen into it a time or 12 myself!)

You can't argue or discuss an issue with a closed mind.  If I've decided, because I read most of Hayes's books in my teens and saw lots of ninja movies in the 80s, that I know all there is to know about ninjutsu or budo taijutsu...  You're never going to convince me if something you say is differnent.  Ninja schools have to meet secretly at night, trespassing on private property and doing all sorts of esoteric rituals, and you have to pass a test where lots of guys try to kill you but you simulate killing them so realistically that (fake) heads go flying...  After all, I read it in a book and saw it in movies!  Throw in a "my style is the best" mentality and you've unfortunately described many of the "cyber-ninja" that show up on line.  Or lots of the tournament champions that think they know real fighting...  (I can't help but snicker a little at all the "MMA is the closest thing to a real fight..." crap, for example.  I've been in real fights...  There's no glass, no slippery wet grass or mud, no buddy jumping into the mix...  MMA is tough and challenging...but it's still a sport!)

The best "solution" to some of this that I've found is to use the approach my teacher taught me.  "Really? Wow... you must be tough! I'm glad I'm not fighting you!" or "I see...  I guess I didn't know that."  Because you can't win the argument...


----------



## heretic888

Don Roley said:


> First of all, I have noticed that a lot of people do not seem to be searching for the truth in on-line discussions. They seek instead to be right. Again, this is not limited to ninjutsu or even the internet. But I notice _a lot_ while reading many conversations. People seem to take a position and think that any attept to tell them that they are wrong is a threat to them. We can be talking about whether the ninja used straight blades, or if the ninja were oppressed minorities and you will see the same thing time after time. Someone will make a statement and defend it to the death no matter how much evidence is shown them. They will grasp at any straw, twist any argument and confuse the issue as much as they can rather than admit that they were wrong.
> 
> ....
> 
> Second rant. I have seen a lot of abuse of the use of anologies. Anologies are good things if one person knows a lot about something and is trying to put it into terms that the other person can understand. They are not perfect, but they are a good, quick way of letting those with a lot of knowledge help those with less to come to an understanding. If we were talking about the _shoen_ system in Japan I might briefly explain that it was close to the sharecropper system you had in America. That is not the complete truth, but you would know enough to understand when I talked about how the people tilling the land did not own it.
> 
> The problem is when those with less knowledge try to exploit and use the anology themselves. Instead of knowing something up down and backwards, they look at it rather shallowly and try to understand it in the context of something else more familiar. So if they see that the _shoen_ system had some similarities with sharecropping, they would assume that the social stigmas about being a farmer on a _shoen_ was the same as those that had to sharecrop in the American south. Some people even seem to want to use anologies to make a nice little reality that they are familiar with and benifits them rather than seek out the truth. People try to compare the ninja to the indians so often I want to gag. And they don't just make similarities, some of them actually think that going out and trying Indian religious practices are a part of ninjutsu training. That is only one example. If you don't really, _really_ know the subject leave the anologies to others.


 
Gosh, Don, whoever could you be talking about?


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

On people who're only looking to be right:

As I've said before, I'm spoiled enough to have several training places at my disposal. At one of them (not my regular place), there's a prime example of the above mentioned point.

There's this guy, I don't know his name but he seems to be in his mid- to late thirties, who's been showing up at the last half hour of the monday sessions a couple of times now. He doesn't participate, he just watches, though it's been a while since I was there last time and I don't know if he's currently enrolled or not. Anyway, he has this habit of getting into a discussion with the instructor about the usual "elements of realism" and tries to draw comparisons between his background of krav maga practice, and the Bujinkan. He's actually being exemplary in that he doesn't do it in the usual offensive, veiled insult-laden manner we're used to seeing online, though it's the usual set of questions..."the real fights I've seen personally happened extremely fast, how do you develop the reflexes to handle that? How do you handle adrenaline shock? How long do you need to train until you learn the stuff that actually works?" Etc etc etc.

Now, the cool thing is that I've been present three times already and it amazes me to see that the instructor in question always manages to play it business as usual, each time answering all the guy's questions in a calm, rational manner as though he's doing it for the first time. And even though we keep telling the guy the same things over and over, it doesn't ever seem to stick. The second time we had this discussion, I mentioned the words "taijutsu" and "Bujinkan" and he immediately asked what they meant, as if he'd never heard the words before.

However, guys like these always bring out the fascist in me. Sometimes, I feel like I just want to tell people to beat it and never come back, because I know right from the start they're never going to get any good, simply because they're not there to learn, they're there to have all their prior suspicions confirmed. There's something about that smug look on some people's faces that tip me off directly that they're neither going to be pleasant to train with nor will they benefit much from practice (it is a major part of my job to read body language, after all).


----------



## Don Roley

Nimravus said:


> However, guys like these always bring out the fascist in me. Sometimes, I feel like I just want to tell people to beat it and never come back, because I know right from the start they're never going to get any good, simply because they're not there to learn, they're there to have all their prior suspicions confirmed. There's something about that smug look on some people's faces that tip me off directly that they're neither going to be pleasant to train with nor will they benefit much from practice (it is a major part of my job to read body language, after all).



Looks like you have run into a varient of the What if Monkey. If you click on the link, you will see they are not confined to just ninjutsu.


----------



## Cryozombie

What if you are wrong Don?


----------



## bydand

Don, quick question for you.  Is this thread just for your rants, or can anybody jump in?  If the latter... I have a great one concerning why everybody with a fresh, ink still wet, release form from a mental institution feels they have to show up at a "Ninja School" for training.  After a couple of training sessions come the enevitable questions about when the "secret training starts" or after a technique is shown - how many different ways you can use it to "off" somebody.  

If I can release the fustration here it would be great.  LOL


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

bydand said:


> Don, quick question for you. Is this thread just for your rants, or can anybody jump in? If the latter... I have a great one concerning why everybody with a fresh, ink still wet, release form from a mental institution feels they have to show up at a "Ninja School" for training. After a couple of training sessions come the enevitable questions about when the "secret training starts" or after a technique is shown - how many different ways you can use it to "off" somebody.
> 
> If I can release the fustration here it would be great. LOL


 
Have everyone do padwork, kamae, ukemi and taihenjutsu only for the first couple of sessions. Gets rid of most maniacs.


----------



## Bigshadow

The few we have had come in, show up to one or two classes, maybe a little more, then they learn the art of invisibility and one day they disappear, never to be seen again.


----------



## Carol

Bigshadow said:


> The few we have had come in, show up to one or two classes, maybe a little more, then they learn the art of invisibility and one day they disappear, never to be seen again.


 

ROFLMAO!!!!  :roflmao:


----------



## Carol

Nimravus said:


> Have everyone do padwork, kamae, ukemi and taihenjutsu only for the first couple of sessions. Gets rid of most maniacs.


 
Serious question...padwork and ukemi I understand, what are kamae and taihenjutsu?


----------



## Bigshadow

Carol Kaur said:


> Serious question...padwork and ukemi I understand, what are kamae and taihenjutsu?



Kamae are like stances or body positions and taihenjutsu is like tumbling & rolling.


----------



## Carol

Bigshadow said:


> Kamae are like stances or body positions and taihenjutsu is like tumbling & rolling.


 
Thanks David!  How is Taihenjutsu different from Ukemi?


----------



## Bigshadow

Carol Kaur said:


> Thanks David!  How is Taihenjutsu different from Ukemi?



I believe ukemi is a part of taihenjutsu.  I am not totally sure of all that it encompasses.  Jeff, Brian, or someone else might be able to shed light on it.  I thought taihenjutsu was the whole receiving the ground sort of thing (the art of falling).


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Acrobatics, sword avoidance, tai sabaki, falling over, under and through obstacles, out of chairs etc...


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Here is a link to Richard Van Donks site which has a brief synopsis of Taihenjutsu we can kind've use this as a base to discuss.  I like to think of it as *body movement skills*.

http://www.ninjutsu.com/shodan-curriculum.shtml

Here is another link to the Dexter Bujinkan Dojo with a short description of Taihenjutsu.

http://www.ninjutsudojo.com/taijutsu_basics.php


----------



## Don Roley

bydand said:


> Don, quick question for you.  Is this thread just for your rants, or can anybody jump in?  If the latter... I have a great one concerning why everybody with a fresh, ink still wet, release form from a mental institution feels they have to show up at a "Ninja School" for training.  After a couple of training sessions come the enevitable questions about when the "secret training starts" or after a technique is shown - how many different ways you can use it to "off" somebody.



No, it is not just for me.

And I have not had to deal with much in the way of nut cases while I have been here in Japan. Most of the guys that look for that type of thing just can't seem to make it.

But I hear what you are saying about the matter. You only have to look around the internet to see that a lot of the people asking about ninjutsu training are looking for some sort of fantasy or justification for their mental illness.

I don't think they last long in real dojos. But there is always someone out there willing to peddle to them. And a lot of times we have run across people who have taken a lesson or two and then decided they can start a "real" form of ninjutsu because we in the Bujinkan don't teach how to poison people.

Good riddence.

Thank Cuthulu I can say I teach "Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu" on my advertisments if I ever move back and start my own dojo. I have decided that using the term ninjutsu would not be best for the reasons you state.


----------



## Xue Sheng

Don Roley said:


> No, it is not just for me.
> 
> And I have not had to deal with much in the way of nut cases while I have been here in Japan. Most of the guys that look for that type of thing just can't seem to make it.
> 
> But I hear what you are saying about the matter. You only have to look around the internet to see that a lot of the people asking about ninjutsu training are looking for some sort of fantasy or justification for their mental illness.
> 
> I don't think they last long in real dojos. But there is always someone out there willing to peddle to them. And a lot of times we have run across people who have taken a lesson or two and then decided they can start a "real" form of ninjutsu because we in the Bujinkan don't teach how to poison people.
> 
> Good riddence.
> 
> Thank Cuthulu I can say I teach "Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu" on my advertisments if I ever move back and start my own dojo. I have decided that using the term ninjutsu would not be best for the reasons you state.


 
I am not trying to take this off topic, just as an aside, but I believe you run into the same thing in China. If they are a nut case they will not last long, but from what I can gather there aren't any in MA in China, it is a great way to get a beating so they stay away.


----------



## buyu

its been my experience that yeah they turn up for a couple of lessons and leave at my dojo your given a form to fill out and it has one simple question do you have a criminal record yes no it doesnt mean if you do that you cant train its just askin but youd be surprised at how many ppl it deters from joining so this deters the crazys or undesirables 
Just in general ive noticed in my area of living that the fakes soon get discovered and shut down whether by the ppl they are trainin or by the authentic instructors of the art but something to remember that some one really lookin for the truth will eventually find it i know i did
thanks guys


----------



## bydand

I think I just live in an area where there are very limited services for people who NEED help, and when I say they show up fresh out of the mental ward, I mean it.  Anything from self-proclamed masters of Ninjutsu who are traveling through and want to "enlighten" us on the "proper method" of running across the tips of the swords of our enemies; to the individual who wanted to know how many people were "really" in class because he knew about the Ninjers ways of invisability and could sense the presence of more people in class than he could see.  Granted these are a couple of the more extreme casses, but about half of the new people are looking for something that Ninjutsu (or any MA) simply cannot grant them due to the laws of physics, I mean it would be cool if we HAD flying classes, or invisability training, or the ability to walk through a brick wall... shoot maybe I'm just not good enough yet.   

I agree Don, BBT would be much better on the signage and other business related items.  It might keep out those who have no idea what it is.  Better than "Ninjutsu" which everybody seems to have a preconcived idea of what it entails (either good or bad.)


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

You're perfectly in your rights to tell them to hit the road based on the rules of the Bujinkan.


----------



## bydand

Oh, telling them to move on does happen.  It is just amazing you should have to.  I guess we should just look at the situation from the aspect that we are in an art that while having a high public awareness, has a very low public knowledge base.


----------



## buyu

Not sticking up for the crazys but most dont know theyre crazy so that would be why you might have to tell them to move on you could just be quite physical and have them leave that way we do this at my dojo it seems to work as bad as it sounds but unfortunately there was a case where a man used to train with us but got into some shady deals and went to jail and isnt stable up there by most peoples standards anyway we had to play nice rough and it worked he hasnt come back since its a weeding out process i beleive i must admit though we dont get the crazys who think they can crouching tiger hidden dragon things itd be fun to watch them try though
thanks


----------



## Cryozombie

Yes, to play devils advocate, with some of the stuff we do to each other in this art... we all have to be a little _crazy_ to study it.​


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

What does it say about you if you're the first person to be paired up with the white belt wearing a shooto rashguard?


----------



## bydand

Nimravus said:


> What does it say about you if you're the first person to be paired up with the white belt wearing a shooto rashguard?



It could be that you have the attitude that the instructor knows you won't just start laughing at the guy.  Or, it could be that you will, either way...


----------



## Don Roley

Here's a rant....

Has anyone ever been paired up with someone that can't get the lock on and tries to muscle his way through it? The more they can't get it, the more strength and speed they try to use to make it work.

Then, the angles and such just come toegether by accident and they are still cranking it on with ever bit of power they can muster. :vu: 

I have a wrap on my elbow now due to an over enthusiastic partner during _Setsuyaku_ practice. With all the icing and such, I hope to be back at training this weekend.

But the next time I see someone try to muscle a joint attack instead of take it slower and work out the right way to do things, I am going to drop them on the spot. :btg:


----------



## Cryozombie

Don Roley said:


> But the next time I see someone try to muscle a joint attack instead of take it slower and work out the right way to do things, I am going to drop them on the spot.



When I am working with someone who is using too much strength, I usually a) tell them to stop or b) roll out and then get up and say "nah, that was all muscle"...  SO FAR I've never been hurt doing that.  And I can honestly say, I have muscled my way thru techniques, often without realizing I was doing it.  Dont think Id appreciate being beaten for it, instead of instructed, but thats just me.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Cryozombie said:


> When I am working with someone who is using too much strength, I usually a) tell them to stop or b) roll out and then get up and say "nah, that was all muscle


 
Every time I try to do that, someone says "less talking, more training". Understand my predicament.

And every time I do what Don says, people talk crap behind my back and I as well as people around me receive unpleasant emails.


----------



## Cryozombie

Nimravus said:


> Every time I try to do that, someone says "less talking, more training". Understand my predicament.



Color me insane, but Communication with the Uke/Tori is training.  You guys cant seriously trian in silence with no feedback between the two?  That would be crazy.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

There are a lot of things currently going on both here and there that are infinitely more crazy than it would be to train in total silence. Let's just say that my contempt for parts of the Bujinkan clientel is growing bigger every day, a lot of it because I don't feel I'm in a proper position to initiate a conversation with those it may concern.


----------



## Dale Seago

Cryozombie said:


> Color me insane, but Communication with the Uke/Tori is training. You guys cant seriously trian in silence with no feedback between the two? That would be crazy.



Believe it or not, I have heard of American instructors who run their dojo that way. Supposed to be something about instilling "discipline". 

Tends to go along wth things like paying very strict attention/deference to seniority when training; speaking only when spoken to by seniors; always referring to the instructor by his title and not his name, e.g. "Shidoshi doesn't want us to. . ."; not letting their students mix with those of other dojo because "Only Shidoshi understands Budo, and he doesn't want his students to be confused or corrupted by inferior teachers"; and so on.

Fair gives me the shudders, it does.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

The REALLY scary scenario is when that kind of environment is created solely by the people participating, without any interference from the instructor.


----------



## kouryuu

Dale Seago said:


> Believe it or not, I have heard of American instructors who run their dojo that way. Supposed to be something about instilling "discipline".
> 
> Tends to go along wth things like paying very strict attention/deference to seniority when training; speaking only when spoken to by seniors; always referring to the instructor by his title and not his name, e.g. "Shidoshi doesn't want us to. . ."; not letting their students mix with those of other dojo because "Only Shidoshi understands Budo, and he doesn't want his students to be confused or corrupted by inferior teachers"; and so on.
> 
> Fair gives me the shudders, it does.


 
I totally agree with Dale here, i tell all my instructors to train and talk with whoever they want, i know very little so getting info from others is vital and i encourage it.


----------



## Bigshadow

Don Roley said:


> But the next time I see someone try to muscle a joint attack instead of take it slower and work out the right way to do things, I am going to drop them on the spot. :btg:



You go Don!  That would be a lesson! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





   All joking aside, I hope your elbow gets better.


----------



## Bigshadow

Dale Seago said:


> Fair gives me the shudders, it does.



I agree with Dale!


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

There are a lot of training maxims floating around that not everyone seems to know how to put to proper use. "Shut up and train" won't bring anything good with it if it results in scenarios such as those Dale is talking about. 
Some people are fond of saying that since training is about "programming"
a behaviour into yourself, you must not simply stop what you're doing and start over again if you screw up, you have to keep flowing into the next technique and adapt to the situation. 
Now, for shidoshi and shihan, this goes without saying - you shouldn't have to talk about it or even notice when they're doing it. But that won't do anything good if you keep saying it to people in their early kyu grades. Even if it doesn't result in one big mess, it'll send signals to the person they're training with that they have to prove something about themselves (not to mention that every time I HAVE managed to have conversations about this issue, it's degenerated into old clichées about how free Budo Taijutsu is as an art and that it doesn't matter in a real fight because blah blah blah blah...).

Same goes for making an effort to train with various different people. I've told people to do just that several times, but see, the only ones this really matters to are those who care about learning Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. It's just not that important to those who just come down because they enjoy the training and want to move around a little and feel better about themselves.


----------



## Rich Parsons

Dale Seago said:


> Believe it or not, I have heard of American instructors who run their dojo that way. Supposed to be something about instilling "discipline".
> 
> Tends to go along wth things like paying very strict attention/deference to seniority when training; speaking only when spoken to by seniors; always referring to the instructor by his title and not his name, e.g. "Shidoshi doesn't want us to. . ."; not letting their students mix with those of other dojo because "Only Shidoshi understands Budo, and he doesn't want his students to be confused or corrupted by inferior teachers"; and so on.
> 
> Fair gives me the shudders, it does.



This scares me. 

Thanks for sharing.


PS: Don how is the elbow, and I hope it is better.


----------



## Cryozombie

Dale Seago said:


> Believe it or not, I have heard of American instructors who run their dojo that way.
> Fair gives me the shudders, it does.



Dale, I don't doubt you, but I can't comprehend training that way.


----------



## shesulsa

Cryozombie said:


> Dale, I don't doubt you, but I can't comprehend training that way.


The learning process seems to have been completely abandoned in that many just don't learn that way.


----------



## Don Roley

Dale Seago said:


> Believe it or not, I have heard of American instructors who run their dojo that way. Supposed to be something about instilling "discipline".
> 
> Tends to go along wth things like paying very strict attention/deference to seniority when training; speaking only when spoken to by seniors; always referring to the instructor by his title and not his name, e.g. "Shidoshi doesn't want us to. . ."; not letting their students mix with those of other dojo because "Only Shidoshi understands Budo, and he doesn't want his students to be confused or corrupted by inferior teachers"; and so on.
> 
> Fair gives me the shudders, it does.



I can rant about that. _Reaaaaaaaal_ easy. 

There is some protocal in Japan. If you come here, you should learn them. But the cases like what Dale talks about just does not really happen here. Yes there is a pecking order. But the whole image these people are laboring under just is not a reality here.

You come in, you show respect to the teacher and you act in a quite manner. The para military thing is not the way things are done in all the schools I have been to. I have heard stories of hell dojos in some arts in Japan. But they are talked about because they are so rare. I have some Japanese friends that do martial arts and I just showed them the Rex Kwon Do scene and they thought it was hysterical. Not something they see here.

I have complained about a group called the Saito ryu with their very silly parody of the way things are done in Japan. I have long heard about things like this in certain Bujinkan dojos. I guess they are true.

And what do you want to bet that the group is not one that comes to Japan, or if they do it is only the teacher. After all, it would not do for people to see that things are not run like Stalag 17 in Japan.

Oh, and the not letting students train with other instructors... that I have heard and can believe. The teacher I call the evil one used to try to keep us away from other teachers. 'Cause all of us that did see other teachers ended up leaving him.

Oh, and thanks to all the people that chimed in on my elbow. If I get a good partner that won't try to rip my arm off I should have no trouble training tommorow. It is not the worst it has ever been. But an hour after a class of having _Setsuyaku_ done a few times at full force, it kind of was not the best it has ever been by a long shot.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

I've noticed lately that nowadays a lot of people tend to go "oooh" and "aaah" whenever somebody is pulled up for a demonstration and gets hit so hard that the sound of impact can be heard, or even if he's just subjected to a visible amount of pain. This, to me, is another sign that we're getting sloppier and lazier in training. When that happens where I train, the most you're going to hear are amused giggles.


----------



## jks9199

Don Roley said:


> You come in, you show respect to the teacher and you act in a quite manner. The para military thing is not the way things are done in all the schools I have been to. I have heard stories of hell dojos in some arts in Japan. But they are talked about because they are so rare. I have some Japanese friends that do martial arts and I just showed them the Rex Kwon Do scene and they thought it was hysterical. Not something they see here.
> 
> I have complained about a group called the Saito ryu with their very silly parody of the way things are done in Japan. I have long heard about things like this in certain Bujinkan dojos. I guess they are true.
> 
> And what do you want to bet that the group is not one that comes to Japan, or if they do it is only the teacher. After all, it would not do for people to see that things are not run like Stalag 17 in Japan.



I don't know how your classes are -- but when I teach (and the way I was taught) is that there's a time for talking and a time for listening.  When the teacher is demonstrating/explaining what you're to be working on -- mouth shut, eyes & ears open.  If you're drilling in a line (no partner), there's little need to talk unless you have a question about how to do the exercise.  Working with a partner?  You need to communicate.  Your partner needs to let you know if you're doing what you're supposed to be, if what you're trying to do looks like what was demonstrated, and so on.  Especially when your partner is senior to you, he or she might explain or expand on the technique to help you understand it.  And, of course, you have to communicate if you're being hurt. And if you hurt your partner carelessly (like, say, muscling a technique or doing something full force when you aren't supposed to), SORRY or an equivalent had better be coming out of your mouth!




> Oh, and the not letting students train with other instructors... that I have heard and can believe. The teacher I call the evil one used to try to keep us away from other teachers. 'Cause all of us that did see other teachers ended up leaving him.



My teacher encouraged us to train with others that he respected -- but the rule was that in his class, you did it his way.  I generally do the same, though I've got one student that I'm getting close to telling not to train with any one else for a bit.  He's got a tendency to pick up the wrong pieces, then have major difficulty laying them down...  Or he will mimic what someone does without understanding it, so he doesn't copy it right.  (Anybody else have students that start picking up silly stances/hand movements/etc from video games?)



> Oh, and thanks to all the people that chimed in on my elbow. If I get a good partner that won't try to rip my arm off I should have no trouble training tommorow. It is not the worst it has ever been. But an hour after a class of having _Setsuyaku_ done a few times at full force, it kind of was not the best it has ever been by a long shot.



Glad to hear you're on the mend, and I hope you draw a better training partner next time!

Which lets me segue back to training partners...  Someone else talked about training with different people.  That's one thing that I've seen happen in different places; people always work with the same partner.  And they get amazingly good -- with each other.  I always try to mix students up as we work partner drills, so that they learn to apply techniques on different body types...


----------



## Don Roley

One thing about rank that disturbs me is the way some people will give it out and accept it from anyone.

I have always thought that you accept rank from your teacher. The key words being _your teacher._

But you know, there are people out there that will train in a school with a teacher, but if another teacher at a seminar offers them rank, they will accept it.

On the other hand, I am distrubed by the idea that people would offer rank to folks even knowing that they are training under another teacher.

In the past I have trained with people and had others come up to me and say they want to put me in for another rank. I refused. If Hatsumi offered it, I would of course accept it and know my teacher would have no trouble with it. If he did have trouble with the head of the art giving out rank to me then I think I would have trouble with him. But I do not think the guys that offered to sponser me for rank knowing that I have a teacher were trying to do me any favors. I think they were trying to get a little bit of control over me. The guy I train with every week is the guy that should reccomend what rank I have to Hatsumi. It is he that I want to represent me just as he takes responsibility for making me a better student.

Loyalty is important to me. I give it grugingly and take it away just as grugingly. I really have to wonder if the people that want to sponser me think that I am so cheap and fickle a person as to turn my back on my teacher for a piece of paper and a pat on the back.

But then again, there certainly seems to be no shortage of people in the Bujinkan that will sell their honor that cheaply.


----------



## jks9199

Don Roley said:


> One thing about rank that disturbs me is the way some people will give it out and accept it from anyone.
> 
> I have always thought that you accept rank from your teacher. The key words being _your teacher._
> 
> But you know, there are people out there that will train in a school with a teacher, but if another teacher at a seminar offers them rank, they will accept it.
> 
> On the other hand, I am distrubed by the idea that people would offer rank to folks even knowing that they are training under another teacher.



I agree; your teacher should determine when you are ready to test or should be awarded a higher rank.  I spent many years at brown belt (one step below black), with many people in my system asking me when I was going to test.  My answer was simple; thanks for the compliment, and I'll test when my teacher says I should.  When his students reached the black belt levels, my teacher left promotion up to his own teacher...  

I'd never offer another person's student rank, for many reasons.  I might, in coordination and cooperation with their teacher, serve on a testing panel or perhaps even (very rarely!) speak to someone's teacher and suggest they promote someone that I believe is deserving of higher rank, but I'd still defer to their teacher.  If someone came to me after training with someone else in the system -- they'd "keep" whatever rank they were given, but I might have to work to bring them to my standards.  They wouldn't be promoted until I believed they were going to be around for a while!  

But I'm fortunate.  Until quite recently, rank wasn't that big a deal in our system.  Occasionally training opportunities were for black belts only, and even more rarely for higher ranked black belts.  (Often, those were by personal invitation from the chief instructor.)  And that's how I teach, too.  I've taught classes of mostly black belts and classes of mostly beginners.  The lessons are the same; I just expect students to learn it at an appropriate level.

The idea that people are promoting students (in any system!) at seminars or while they visit another school...  That's just mind boggling!  How do you know that you just didn't catch the student on their very best day ever, and ordinarily they can barely tell their left foot from their right hand?  I guess I can see two possible reasons.  One exception; if the whole purpose of the seminar is testing/advancement.  (Not exactly something that I see happening much from what I know of the Bujinkan systems...) The other?  If my teacher came to my class, and wanted to promote one of my students -- I'd take his guidance, of course!  (I don't see him doing that, though.  He's much more likely to "suggest" the promotion to me...)


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Don Roley said:


> One thing about rank that disturbs me is the way some people will give it out and accept it from anyone.
> 
> I have always thought that you accept rank from your teacher. The key words being _your teacher._
> 
> But you know, there are people out there that will train in a school with a teacher, but if another teacher at a seminar offers them rank, they will accept it.
> 
> On the other hand, I am distrubed by the idea that people would offer rank to folks even knowing that they are training under another teacher.
> 
> In the past I have trained with people and had others come up to me and say they want to put me in for another rank. I refused. If Hatsumi offered it, I would of course accept it and know my teacher would have no trouble with it. If he did have trouble with the head of the art giving out rank to me then I think I would have trouble with him. But I do not think the guys that offered to sponser me for rank knowing that I have a teacher were trying to do me any favors. I think they were trying to get a little bit of control over me. The guy I train with every week is the guy that should reccomend what rank I have to Hatsumi. It is he that I want to represent me just as he takes responsibility for making me a better student.
> 
> Loyalty is important to me. I give it grugingly and take it away just as grugingly. I really have to wonder if the people that want to sponser me think that I am so cheap and fickle a person as to turn my back on my teacher for a piece of paper and a pat on the back.
> 
> But then again, there certainly seems to be no shortage of people in the Bujinkan that will sell their honor that cheaply.


 
Hey Don,

That is annoying and unfortunately seems to be one of the things I dislike about the Bujinkan.  You are absolutely right in people trying to position themselves and create a sort of debt that you owe them.  However in the scheme of things we just need to continue to work on our skills and not really worry about what everyone else is doing.  Personally for me the true test is in ones ability and not what one wears around your waste.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

You *can't* totally ignore what everyone else is doing. Mainly because the actions of the people you train with affect your own development as well.

I recently discovered that the lowlife who wore a white belt a year ago and almost broke my nose with a bokken by accident now has a shodan. Sooner or later, something's got to give.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Nimravus said:


> You *can't* totally ignore what everyone else is doing. Mainly because the actions of the people you train with affect your own development as well.
> 
> I recently discovered that the lowlife who wore a white belt a year ago and almost broke my nose with a bokken by accident now has a shodan. Sooner or later, something's got to give.


 
I agree that you cannot completely ignore everyone.  However, you do not need to train with just anyone.  I know plenty of people who will only train with someone they know well and like to train with.


----------



## kouryuu

Nimravus said:


> You *can't* totally ignore what everyone else is doing. Mainly because the actions of the people you train with affect your own development as well.
> 
> I recently discovered that the lowlife who wore a white belt a year ago and almost broke my nose with a bokken by accident now has a shodan. Sooner or later, something's got to give.


 
As he`s a blackbelt now, YOU can hit him harder!!!!!:lol:


----------



## Bigshadow

kouryuu said:


> As he`s a blackbelt now, YOU can hit him harder!!!!!:lol:



Yes, he should be able to get out the way right?  :uhyeah:


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## Grey Eyed Bandit

kouryuu said:


> As he`s a blackbelt now, YOU can hit him harder!!!!!:lol:


 
Yes, if I want to receive more uncomfortable emails.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I agree that you cannot completely ignore everyone. However, you do not need to train with just anyone. I know plenty of people who will only train with someone they know well and like to train with.


 
Sometimes you have no choice.


----------



## Don Roley

Nimravus said:


> You *can't* totally ignore what everyone else is doing. Mainly because the actions of the people you train with affect your own development as well.
> 
> I recently discovered that the lowlife who wore a white belt a year ago and almost broke my nose with a bokken by accident now has a shodan. Sooner or later, something's got to give.



Is this guy in your class? Was he graded by your instructor? Why would you have to train with him if that is not the case? If your teacher is giving black belts to dangerous morons, then you have to consider the school you are in.


----------



## Carol

Nimravus said:


> You *can't* totally ignore what everyone else is doing. Mainly because the actions of the people you train with affect your own development as well.
> 
> I recently discovered that the lowlife who wore a white belt a year ago and almost broke my nose with a bokken by accident now has a shodan. Sooner or later, something's got to give.


 


Don Roley said:


> Is this guy in your class? Was he graded by your instructor? Why would you have to train with him if that is not the case? If your teacher is giving black belts to dangerous morons, then you have to consider the school you are in.


 

White belt to Shodan in a year?

Dang, his checks must clear VERY quickly.


----------



## Don Roley

Carol Kaur said:


> White belt to Shodan in a year?
> 
> Dang, his checks must clear VERY quickly.



Well, fast risings in rank are not a bad thing all the time. I have a friend who trained for years and only got up to green belt before he came to Japan. He rocketed up in the ranks while he was here. His old teacher kept him jumping through hoops to beat some sort of control and loyalty before he would promote him. So he had the skill. It was just funny giving him hell all that time about how fast he rose in rank.

But if someone is acting like an idiot with a bokken just a year ago and is now wearing a black belt, well.... I would like to hear the reason why. I am less concerned about his lack of skill than in the danger he poses to other students. 

But of course, I wonder how you can tell someone that they are just not good enough to train with you. It is something I am thinking about as my remaining time in Japan gets shorter and shorter. I do not want to spend my time training with students who are idiots like the one in this story. But unless someone really does something that breaks the rules, how can you really tell them that you want them to stop training? I can say it to a person, I am just worried about possible legal problems if I do and can't give a reason like they broke the rules. Telling someone to leave just because they are not up to my standard sounds like it might open me up to being sued.

This art deals with some dangerous stuff. I do not want to hold my training back because I do not trust a student to actually use something like a rokushakubo with intent and not actually hit and kill their partner. But after some months of training, letting someone go for that reason sounds iffy in a nation where daytime TV is filled with advertisements from lawyers asking you to sue someone.

And that is not a rant that I think is exclusive to the Bujinkan.


----------



## Carol

Don Roley said:


> Well, fast risings in rank are not a bad thing all the time. I have a friend who trained for years and only got up to green belt before he came to Japan. He rocketed up in the ranks while he was here. His old teacher kept him jumping through hoops to beat some sort of control and loyalty before he would promote him. So he had the skill. It was just funny giving him hell all that time about how fast he rose in rank.
> 
> But if someone is acting like an idiot with a bokken just a year ago and is now wearing a black belt, well.... I would like to hear the reason why. I am less concerned about his lack of skill than in the danger he poses to other students.
> 
> But of course, I wonder how you can tell someone that they are just not good enough to train with you. It is something I am thinking about as my remaining time in Japan gets shorter and shorter. I do not want to spend my time training with students who are idiots like the one in this story. But unless someone really does something that breaks the rules, how can you really tell them that you want them to stop training? I can say it to a person, I am just worried about possible legal problems if I do and can't give a reason like they broke the rules. Telling someone to leave just because they are not up to my standard sounds like it might open me up to being sued.
> 
> This art deals with some dangerous stuff. I do not want to hold my training back because I do not trust a student to actually use something like a rokushakubo with intent and not actually hit and kill their partner. But after some months of training, letting someone go for that reason sounds iffy in a nation where daytime TV is filled with advertisements from lawyers asking you to sue someone.
> 
> And that is not a rant that I think is exclusive to the Bujinkan.


 

Legal hat on for a moment Don.  If that idjit hurts someone, you are at far greater risk from those daytime TV attorneys than you would be if you dismiss someone dangerous.

You may need an attorney on your side to get your structure set up and to get all of your ducks in a row, but that's no different than any other business.

Plus with proper market positioning you can make your school less attractive to idjits and wanna-be ninjers.


----------



## Don Roley

Carol Kaur said:


> Plus with proper market positioning you can make your school less attractive to idjits and wanna-be ninjers.



You have not seen some of the guys I have seen in the Bujinkan. There is an entire thread I started about weird people who want to try entering the Bujinkan.

Seriously, I know that I am in more legal danger if an idiot hurts another student than if I let them go. I am more worried about the person getting hurt than in legal troubles. But once I let someone in the door, it does seem that there is _a_ danger of getting sued if I let them go later. The question is the risk worth the effort to teach the way I want.

Without a clear, understandable set of rules that can be shown to have been broken to justify tossing someone out, even a training group in my garage might open me up to legal trouble. But if someone just strikes me as not having the right stuff, that is not something I can show on a sheet of paper in front of a jury to cover myself.

"Why did you make my client leave your training group?"

"Isn't it obvious by his slack- jawed expression? The guy can't be trusted with lethal weapons!"

Yeah, that would go over _real_ well. :shock:


----------



## Carol

Don Roley said:


> But once I let someone in the door, it does seem that there is _a_ danger of getting sued if I let them go later.


 
People can, and do, sue anyone for anything.  That's not to say that such lawsuits get anywhere.  I would strongly consider spending some time with a well-qualified attorney in the state where you will be teaching.  While teaching out of a garage sounds simple, the legal bounds are incredibly complex.

So...  Non-legal adivice...

If you teach out of your garage, and charge tuition, you risk trouble unless your home is zoned commercial.  Most aren't.

Your homeowner's or rentor's policy may also be void if you run a businesss on site...again, that's only a factor if you charge tuition.   

You likely qualify for having a private club, which gets around discrimination concerns.  OTOH, such concerns will be reinforced with a personell miststep


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Nimravus said:


> Sometimes you have no choice.


 
Well if the person in question is in your dojo then yes it would be a tricky situation.  However, sometimes honesty is the best policy and you might just want to tell the person that hey when I train with you I am afraid of being hurt so I would rather not train with you until you improve.  If they person is your senior in the dojo that creates a whole nother interesting bag of worms.  If it were me I would talk with your instructor and state how you feel.  Good luck.


----------



## Rich Parsons

Don Roley said:


> Well, fast risings in rank are not a bad thing all the time. I have a friend who trained for years and only got up to green belt before he came to Japan. He rocketed up in the ranks while he was here. His old teacher kept him jumping through hoops to beat some sort of control and loyalty before he would promote him. So he had the skill. It was just funny giving him hell all that time about how fast he rose in rank.



Yes, Skill is skill, and should be recognized. And I like the example you have given of training for a while and then getting rank in a shorter time frame this could be just that the person did not what to be ranked until maybe later in life they wanted to teach others. So, in his case it seems bad for why he did nto get rank earlier, but I can think of good reasons for the person on on this could happen. 



Don Roley said:


> But if someone is acting like an idiot with a bokken just a year ago and is now wearing a black belt, well.... I would like to hear the reason why. I am less concerned about his lack of skill than in the danger he poses to other students.



Yes the danger factor is a major concern no matter the art. 



Don Roley said:


> But of course, I wonder how you can tell someone that they are just not good enough to train with you. It is something I am thinking about as my remaining time in Japan gets shorter and shorter. I do not want to spend my time training with students who are idiots like the one in this story. But unless someone really does something that breaks the rules, how can you really tell them that you want them to stop training? I can say it to a person, I am just worried about possible legal problems if I do and can't give a reason like they broke the rules. Telling someone to leave just because they are not up to my standard sounds like it might open me up to being sued.



I have had this talk only once. The guy hurt others outside of class. I told him he should not train until he understands what he did wrong. Walking through a reception line and trying joint locks on people is just wrong. 

My local Modern Arnis Instructor when I started has always kept it small. If there was someone who needed help money or time he always tried to help and offer them training as long as they were serious and tried. Yet, he also would talk to people about how they do not come to class regularly or how they seem to be very hesitant about this aspect of the art, so maybe they should try training somewhere else. If the student just not like the risk of getting their hands hit wth sticks (* Surgeon / Musician *), then we can guide them elsewhere. 

I think the key is that you do not tell them they absolutely cannot, but that they just seem not to fit in and or are not somehow meeting a standard even though it is just verbal. I mean one could say it was a control issue, for you alone could make that judgement as the instructor that he moved to fast with not enough control in dangerous situations, or that they were late all the time and just seemed not interested so you jsut explained to them that maybe training elsewhere would increase their enthusiasm. 

Also if it must be absolute, I would do it one on one so it is his word versus yours. 

We have told people we do not train children. There are lots of programs out there that do. We do not, unless the parent is a studnet in the class as well, and then the child must be paying attention and interested and showing desire to learn, and this usualy does not occur until the  mid teens, and even there it is hit or miss. The Parent aspect is not to force them to go away, but to make sure the parent understands and has felt what the student is learning. We have never had student / parent try to say we are discriminating against them this way. 

When I was asked after the one case where I told him he could not train, I replied that I cannot unlearn what he has learned, but I do not have to teach him more, and would be in my opinion at risk if I did so, knowing what he had done. 



Don Roley said:


> This art deals with some dangerous stuff. I do not want to hold my training back because I do not trust a student to actually use something like a rokushakubo with intent and not actually hit and kill their partner. But after some months of training, letting someone go for that reason sounds iffy in a nation where daytime TV is filled with advertisements from lawyers asking you to sue someone.
> 
> And that is not a rant that I think is exclusive to the Bujinkan.



I tihnk Don, which I was trying to get too above, is that if you make it about safety and security, and also a binding agreement, it is like a lease of an apartment from month to month, with 30 days notice either can end the relationship and there is no cause for recourse. If you look at it as a business transaction you can end the transaction, and if you refunded their last payment, they would not have any money issue to come after you and it also shows that you were not dismissing people and trying to keep their money. As to the safety and security, you can let them go as they have not meet your standards. The only issue I could see with this is that if after a few months or years you only let White Males go no matter what, then one could say there is a pattern to go after you. (* I know you would not, which is why I can raise this point.  *) 

Also remember you have to have something of sufficient value for them want to go after, so if you have a big business, and lots of money personally, from work or family, it might be best to make sure before you teach you are incorporated with a Limited Liability (LLC) which means that they can come after you business and not you, in most cases. I am sure there are exceptions to this as there are always.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Don Roley said:


> Is this guy in your class? Was he graded by your instructor? Why would you have to train with him if that is not the case? If your teacher is giving black belts to dangerous morons, then you have to consider the school you are in.


 
I don't even know where he trains regularly. I saw him at a seminar.

Another reason I'm currently training where I am is that we have people who received shodan in two years from having started training - and who deserve it.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Brian R. VanCise said:


> If it were me I would talk with your instructor and state how you feel. Good luck.


 
Not the easiest thing to do when you're away from "home". Besides, when I've done what Don suggested doing to people who get too enthusiastic, those same people talk to senior instructors about me.


----------



## jks9199

Don Roley said:


> But of course, I wonder how you can tell someone that they are just not good enough to train with you. It is something I am thinking about as my remaining time in Japan gets shorter and shorter. I do not want to spend my time training with students who are idiots like the one in this story. But unless someone really does something that breaks the rules, how can you really tell them that you want them to stop training? I can say it to a person, I am just worried about possible legal problems if I do and can't give a reason like they broke the rules. Telling someone to leave just because they are not up to my standard sounds like it might open me up to being sued.
> 
> This art deals with some dangerous stuff. I do not want to hold my training back because I do not trust a student to actually use something like a rokushakubo with intent and not actually hit and kill their partner. But after some months of training, letting someone go for that reason sounds iffy in a nation where daytime TV is filled with advertisements from lawyers asking you to sue someone.
> 
> And that is not a rant that I think is exclusive to the Bujinkan.



I can assure you that it's not limited to the Bujinkan.

I've seen two effective approaches to students with poor control, bad attitudes or who are immature.  My teacher has (rarely) asked students not to return to class, and told them explicitly why.  "I'm sorry, but until you can avoid injuring your training partners, you're not welcome here" for example.  (Students often send the first clue as they avoid pairing with that person.)

The other approach is to ignore them.  The biggest clue that you're in trouble with my teacher is when he STOPS correcting you in class; that's when you know he's written you off.  His comments to you end up being something like "That's OK" and only when he's asked.

The drawback to the second approach is that, with people that you don't trust with dangerous techniques, you have to modify what you teach.  I've been fortunate; I've never had to face that, expcept that there are things I don't teach in classes with younger students.


----------



## Fu_Bag

Don Roley said:


> You have not seen some of the guys I have seen in the Bujinkan. There is an entire thread I started about weird people who want to try entering the Bujinkan.
> 
> Seriously, I know that I am in more legal danger if an idiot hurts another student than if I let them go. I am more worried about the person getting hurt than in legal troubles. But once I let someone in the door, it does seem that there is _a_ danger of getting sued if I let them go later. The question is the risk worth the effort to teach the way I want.
> 
> Without a clear, understandable set of rules that can be shown to have been broken to justify tossing someone out, even a training group in my garage might open me up to legal trouble. But if someone just strikes me as not having the right stuff, that is not something I can show on a sheet of paper in front of a jury to cover myself.
> 
> "Why did you make my client leave your training group?"
> 
> "Isn't it obvious by his slack- jawed expression? The guy can't be trusted with lethal weapons!"
> 
> Yeah, that would go over _real_ well. :shock:


 
OK. I have some dumb questions. I apologize in advance for probably missing the obvious.

1. Isn't there an entrance interview before being accepted into the school?

2. Don't you have to sign a legally binding document with the "Rules of the Bujinkan" included in order to become a Bujinkan student?

3. Don't some of the rules state that you accept all responsibility for injury and agree not to cause legal trouble for the Bujinkan if you're injured?

4. Isn't there a clause that states that you can be forced out at anytime for being a troublemaker, for engaging in any type of criminal behavior, or for having a criminal record? 

If people sign such an agreement, is it that easy to turn around and successfully sue a school or instructor? 

I'd think it'd be kind of hard to use "gut feeling" and "I've been trained to be very sensitive and I have a bad feeling about you" as legal grounds for refusing students.


----------



## Cryozombie

Yeah, Don, I think the easiest way to cover your own butt would be to make everyone sign a waiver, and as part of the clause in the waiver, state that any student, at your discression may be asked not to return to training.

I think that should cover you... It might not stop you from getting sued, but It might help keep them from winning if they are that stupid...


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Cryozombie said:


> Yeah, Don, I think the easiest way to cover your own butt would be to make everyone sign a waiver, and as part of the clause in the waiver, state that any student, at your discression may be asked not to return to training.
> 
> I think that should cover you... It might not stop you from getting sued, but It might help keep them from winning if they are that stupid...


 
I have such a statement in my application form. (which was also looked over by a competent lawyer)


----------



## jks9199

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I have such a statement in my application form. (which was also looked over by a competent lawyer)


The catch with a waiver is that, depending on the state, it may not reduce responsibility.  It's a really complicated area of civil law and I'm not qualified to opine on it beyond that.  And, in the US, ANY lawsuit can go forward for ANYTHING.  

The bottom line is that martial arts training is inherently dangerous, and will teach techniques and skills that can be misused, and instructors have no real control what a student does with those skills once they leave the training hall.  Now, an instructor who continues to teach dangerous techniques to someone who has demonstrated that they'll abuse them...  He's liable to open himself up to a lot of problems.

With regard to application processes and interviews, they're limited.  Consider that most police departments have stringent application processes that try to weed out the people who will be untrustworthy or commit acts of brutality, yet they still happen.  Sometimes, there's no way to tell about a person until they have that authority or knowledge.  I'm not suggesting that you not have an application process or interview -- just that you realize that it is limited.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

jks9199 said:


> The catch with a waiver is that, depending on the state, it may not reduce responsibility. It's a really complicated area of civil law and I'm not qualified to opine on it beyond that. And, in the US, ANY lawsuit can go forward for ANYTHING.
> 
> The bottom line is that martial arts training is inherently dangerous, and will teach techniques and skills that can be misused, and instructors have no real control what a student does with those skills once they leave the training hall. Now, an instructor who continues to teach dangerous techniques to someone who has demonstrated that they'll abuse them... He's liable to open himself up to a lot of problems.
> 
> With regard to application processes and interviews, they're limited. Consider that most police departments have stringent application processes that try to weed out the people who will be untrustworthy or commit acts of brutality, yet they still happen. Sometimes, there's no way to tell about a person until they have that authority or knowledge. I'm not suggesting that you not have an application process or interview -- just that you realize that it is limited.


 
True a waiver is just a piece of paper and in the States here anybody can sue anyone for anything at anytime.  However if you take prudent steps and have shown that you made the participant aware of things then you are in a far better legal position.


----------



## Fu_Bag

jks9199 said:


> The catch with a waiver is that, depending on the state, it may not reduce responsibility. It's a really complicated area of civil law and I'm not qualified to opine on it beyond that. And, in the US, ANY lawsuit can go forward for ANYTHING.
> 
> The bottom line is that martial arts training is inherently dangerous, and will teach techniques and skills that can be misused, and instructors have no real control what a student does with those skills once they leave the training hall. Now, an instructor who continues to teach dangerous techniques to someone who has demonstrated that they'll abuse them... He's liable to open himself up to a lot of problems.
> 
> With regard to application processes and interviews, they're limited. Consider that most police departments have stringent application processes that try to weed out the people who will be untrustworthy or commit acts of brutality, yet they still happen. Sometimes, there's no way to tell about a person until they have that authority or knowledge. I'm not suggesting that you not have an application process or interview -- just that you realize that it is limited.


 
Mmmm.......The sweet sting of reality!!!! Honestly, that sucks.
Damned if you do, damned if you do. So, this still leaves open the question of "how do you legally weed your garden of bad, or undesirable, students?". I've heard it said that, eventually, bad students end up weeding themselves out.

I don't doubt that's true but the damage they can do up until that point is still a problem. I think the old timers' view has been expressed as "(sigh) In the old days we could just kill the bad students (sigh)". I would think the potential damage to your school's ability to attract good students would be harmed by the existence of bad students or, even worse, bad black belts. Thank Heaven there's still the Godan test to regulate opening your own school.


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## buyu

Why not fake an injury and have the instructor kick them out, you would have to of organised it with the instructor first. The situation should never eventuate to that though. If it is pointed out to the person politely what is wrong with the way they go about their trainning then they would, if they truely want to learn, change the way the work with others in the dojo.
Explain to the person in question that the other ppl in the dojo are having trouble training with them and if it keeps up ppl will just not train fullstop with them and then whats the point of coming to training. My point is that you can find ways honorable or not to get these people to leave and whats honorable or not is up to you but if you prevent harm to others in your dojo by tricking this person then is it not honorable.


----------



## Bigshadow

I always thought the out-of-hand student always got have the instructor as a partner for some enlightenment training! :EG:

However, in a small group such as where I train, it is easier to manage such things.  Having more students would definitely make things more complicated.


----------



## Alan Witty

Ha Ha. This was good enough to figure out how to use my membership here.  Besides I was grading papers and was sooo bored.

On the muscle thing as I recall when I first met Don I had lost my left distal bicep tendon to an overpowered uke.  Or that might have been the next year.   Still works.

Besides I have seen Dale deal with many the strange Ninjer.  Of course one of his favored methods is no longer in the US.

On this particular point you have no issues.  Your Dojo is like any business.  You have no obligation to provide services, period.  Well you do if there is a contract.  Besides come to Colorado. I would be happy to be a student again and I have a nice but sometimes chilly garage, ask Dale. And the dogs attend class.

Sorry I missed you in Japan.  I did make it to Nagase's and it was great.  Was hoping to see you but is sounded like you were busy.  The trip was great. It reminded me of how lousy I am.  More work to do.

On the formal Shidoshi issue I have seen that a few times.  In one case after seeing a form I went to train with another fellow.  I always tend to want to feel what I have seen and said, "ok I will attack"  The fellow insisted that I go first.  Well we went back and forth like a vaudeville routine. Finally I asked what the trouble was.  The other fellow said I was senior so should be Tori first.  As I never wear a rank patch, well with the exception of the glowering picture on the web site, I wondered on this as we both had black belts. Was mine worn and old --maybe I was.  Anyway it turns out that this fellow was taught that the senior was always Tori first.  

How weird.


----------



## Bigshadow

Alan Witty said:


> Anyway it turns out that this fellow was taught that the senior was always Tori first.



I have heard the same as well.  Although, I believe there is some real reasons to do that, but not out of respect, but out of understanding of what is being done.  If the senior student is tori, the uke can feel what it is supposed (or nearly) to feel like, this is something that is important.  I am always jumping in to be uke for the instructor in the demo part of the training.  That way I can feel what is happening and I can transfer that feeling when I pair up with a partner.  

However, it becomes far less important who is uke and tori first when the students are very close in rank (in a perfect world anyway ).


----------



## Don Roley

Alan Witty said:


> In one case after seeing a form I went to train with another fellow.  I always tend to want to feel what I have seen and said, "ok I will attack"  The fellow insisted that I go first.  Well we went back and forth like a vaudeville routine. Finally I asked what the trouble was.  The other fellow said I was senior so should be Tori first.  As I never wear a rank patch, well with the exception of the glowering picture on the web site, I wondered on this as we both had black belts. Was mine worn and old --maybe I was.  Anyway it turns out that this fellow was taught that the senior was always Tori first.



Hi Alan. Welcome to martialtalk and I hope your expereince is a good one.

As for the higher ranking person going first, yes that is the way it is typically done in many Japanese arts. Actually, the person in the uke position is usually the one doing the teaching. They set up the perfect attack for the techique to be done. There are very few things that are _wrong_ in martial arts. Really you are talking about things that are _inappropriate_ to a particular situation. The uke sets up the situation where the technique being done is the one best for the situation so that tori can get used to identifying and working in that situation.

Of course, now days people don't even bother to see what the uke is doing and just do whatever the hell they want when attacking. :soapbox:  It is one of the reasons I look for a good uke almost more than I look for a good teacher. 

To give a concrete example- if you grab my lapel and shove me back, I can use that motion to move into something like setsuyaku or hoteki where your elbow is  hyper-extended. If you grab and pull me in, I can use that motion to go into something like oni kudaki or musha dori or evena  modified nichigeki (great for the typical grab). The problem is when the idiot you are working out with tries to shove you back when you are supposed to be working on musha dori and you can either do something _other than_ what the teacher is showing, or you can train yourself to do something _less appropriate_ for the situation.

Sometimes I really want to smack my uke around.:whip:  Am I the only one? I actually made choices on what classes to go to based on whether there would be people I trust would be there to work out with. But every so often I get someone who is trying to do an attack that is somewhat different from what the teacher's uke is doing and actually seems amis that I want him to do the technique as shown instead of trying to modify the move to the new attack. :tantrum:


----------



## huntly_kickboxing

So we just stay staggnant and martial arts doesnt evolve, then all of you in your glass towers can cast judgement upon all the inovators searching for ,evolving, there art. I think The UFC has showen us all how ineffective alot of the moves in martial arts are, in real life they dont work, UFC was ruled by BJJ but now the mantle has moved towards wrestling,and now theres a shift to your stand up fight. If a MA uses the internet good on them. 2 minds are better then one that looks in a mirror in a dark room.
JIM


----------



## Don Roley

huntly_kickboxing said:


> So we just stay staggnant and martial arts doesnt evolve, then all of you in your glass towers can cast judgement upon all the inovators searching for ,evolving, there art. I think The UFC has showen us all how ineffective alot of the moves in martial arts are, in real life they dont work, UFC was ruled by BJJ but now the mantle has moved towards wrestling,and now theres a shift to your stand up fight. If a MA uses the internet good on them. 2 minds are better then one that looks in a mirror in a dark room.



Perhaps you might want to read what has been written. It is hard to have a discussion with someone like yourself if you don't even realize what others are saying. I am not going to try to make things clear to you if you refuse to actually read and respond to what is actually being said.

Question, are you _trying_ to cause trouble? If you are not, then you had best look at your behavior. I do not think you will last long here if you continue on the path you are on now.


----------



## Bigshadow

Don Roley said:


> But every so often I get someone who is trying to do an attack that is somewhat different from what the teacher's uke is doing and actually seems amis that I want him to do the technique as shown instead of trying to modify the move to the new attack. :tantrum:




I have run into that too.  I have had to explain that although that what they did was OK under other circumstances, it was not what the instructor wanted us to work on.  Trying to be polite.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Bigshadow said:


> I have run into that too. I have had to explain that although that what they did was OK under other circumstances, it was not what the instructor wanted us to work on. Trying to be polite.


 
Yes that is always a good way to handle it.  However if you get someone who is not working along with what the teacher is showing then you may have to switch and find another uke.  I always try to choose my partner's wisely so that I and they get the maximum out of each class.


----------



## Bigshadow

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Yes that is always a good way to handle it.  However if you get someone who is not working along with what the teacher is showing then you may have to switch and find another uke.  I always try to choose my partner's wisely so that I and they get the maximum out of each class.



I switch around frequently.  I like to try to switch every time we switch up the training.


----------



## huntly_kickboxing

Don Roley said:


> Perhaps you might want to read what has been written. It is hard to have a discussion with someone like yourself if you don't even realize what others are saying. I am not going to try to make things clear to you if you refuse to actually read and respond to what is actually being said.
> 
> Question, are you _trying_ to cause trouble? If you are not, then you had best look at your behavior. I do not think you will last long here if you continue on the path you are on now.


 
No Not trying to cause trouble!! Getting use to the format and now to post quotes etc with my speel, so people can see what I'm ranting about lol, so i will practice, never feel threatend by the unknowen for if one doesnt evolve one is then a tree, strong and pleasent on a hot summers day but rooted in place, be the wind free, moving, always seeking enlightenment. If your so good judge me but you are not my master and i not your slave.

JIM


----------



## Don Roley

huntly_kickboxing said:


> never feel threatend by the unknowen



It is not the unknown that is the worry, it is the _unknowing_ such as yourself that is the concern.



huntly_kickboxing said:


> for if one doesnt evolve one is then a tree, strong and pleasent on a hot summers day but rooted in place, be the wind free, moving, always seeking enlightenment. If your so good judge me but you are not my master and i not your slave.



Again, perhaps you should read up a bit about the subjects you voice opinions on. The head of my _tradition_ has a book out on knife and pistol fighting. Have you ever studied those disciplines?:uhyeah: 

As for being my slave, no. But you should listen to those that know far, far more than you probably ever will. But if you try to make comments on a subject you have no knowledge about, you probably will never reach a position of wisdom. Take a look at the red dot you have in the upper right hand corner. That is a bad sign. I have not given you any negative karma, but it seems that your attitude has caused people to judge you as a troublemaker or a fool. It really does not matter in the end which you are. I have never seen someone to get red dots like yours so soon after joining to last long. Maybe you will surprise me and start to listen to reason. I will root for that, but not bet on it.


----------



## Don Roley

Bigshadow said:


> I have run into that too.  I have had to explain that although that what they did was OK under other circumstances, it was not what the instructor wanted us to work on.  Trying to be polite.



Well, I have had people think that what they were doing _was_ what the teacher was doing. Or they could not see the differences. And in one case, I had a guy tell me he did not want to punch like the teacher.

Maybe I should explain. One night long ago when I was training with Shiraishi, he showed a technique where you slipped the punch coming in and you grabbed the rear hand guarding his face to do a wrist lock. I did the slip as shown, but there was nothing between me and the the guy's face but air. The guy had thrown a punch with his rear hand on his hip! That is so strange as to mention comment. But when I asked him to keep his hand up like the guy had shown, he sniffed that he did not throw punches like that.

Well, everyone in Japan seems to throw punches like that. And if you don't, the teacher will smack you in the face. Or at least the ones I train with. When you stop leaving something open, they stop hitting you. But was I there to smack this guy in the face or do what the teacher was doing?

But far more often  I have run across people that don't understand that even the mere angle of the grabbing arm determines what kind of techique is the best to use. And when you point it out, they think you just can't adapt what you are doing. The point is, we have so many things we could do because there are so many different things that can happen. Doing what is not the most approriate instals in us bad habits.


----------



## huntly_kickboxing

Don Roley said:


> It is not the unknown that is the worry, it is the _unknowing_ such as yourself that is the concern.





Don Roley said:


> Again, perhaps you should read up a bit about the subjects you voice opinions on. The head of my _tradition_ has a book out on knife and pistol fighting. Have you ever studied those disciplines?:uhyeah:
> 
> As for being my slave, no. But you should listen to those that know far, far more than you probably ever will. But if you try to make comments on a subject you have no knowledge about, you probably will never reach a position of wisdom. Take a look at the red dot you have in the upper right hand corner. That is a bad sign. I have not given you any negative karma, but it seems that your attitude has caused people to judge you as a troublemaker or a fool. It really does not matter in the end which you are. I have never seen someone to get red dots like yours so soon after joining to last long. Maybe you will surprise me and start to listen to reason. I will root for that, but not bet on it.


 
I thought this was a rant page 

rant (r&#259;nt) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





_v._, rant·ed, rant·ing, rants. 

_v.intr._ 
To speak or write in an angry or violent manner; rave.
_v.tr._ 
To utter or express with violence or extravagance: _a dictator who ranted his vitriol onto a captive audience._
_n._ 

Violent or extravagant speech or writing.
A speech or piece of writing that incites anger or violence: _The vast majority [of teenagers logged onto the Internet] did not encounter recipes for pipe bombs or deranged rants about white supremacy_ (Daniel Okrent).
_Chiefly British._ Wild or uproarious merriment.
I was expressing my opinion
But obviously u and your red dot clan
deny a person this right
Hide behind your glass wall
But you shouldn't throw stones
Thankyou for your wisdom
Unlike you I read and think
Instead fear the unknowen, 
as for guns and knifes my first sifu
told me "If someone pulls knife Run!"
"If someone pulls gun run faster"

Yours in peace and kindness

JIM


----------



## Don Roley

huntly_kickboxing said:


> I was expressing my opinion But obviously u and your red dot clandeny a person this right Hide behind your glass wall But you shouldn't throw stones



I see. You are not trying to be disruptive, but just merely lack the ability to understand that this thread is in a certain section and relating to matters of that section.

Perhaps if you tried to understand things you would be less bitter. There are many people here who would be willing to help someone with as little knowledge and experience as you do if only you show the proper attitude instead of lashing out as you are. You have the ability to change your ways and learn from your mistakes. If you do not want to admit you were wrong and move on, then you will be stuck in the same rut you are in for all your life. Do you really want that?


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

huntly_kickboxing said:


> So we just stay staggnant and martial arts doesnt evolve, then all of you in your glass towers can cast judgement upon all the inovators searching for ,evolving, there art. I think The UFC has showen us all how ineffective alot of the moves in martial arts are, in real life they dont work, UFC was ruled by BJJ but now the mantle has moved towards wrestling,and now theres a shift to your stand up fight. If a MA uses the internet good on them. 2 minds are better then one that looks in a mirror in a dark room.
> JIM


 
Jim,  this is a *rant thread* in the Traditional Ninjutsu Forum and is specifically geared towards authentic traditional Ninjutsu.  Thanks.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Don Roley said:


> Well, I have had people think that what they were doing _was_ what the teacher was doing. Or they could not see the differences. And in one case, I had a guy tell me he did not want to punch like the teacher.
> 
> Maybe I should explain. One night long ago when I was training with Shiraishi, he showed a technique where you slipped the punch coming in and you grabbed the rear hand guarding his face to do a wrist lock. I did the slip as shown, but there was nothing between me and the the guy's face but air. The guy had thrown a punch with his rear hand on his hip! That is so strange as to mention comment. But when I asked him to keep his hand up like the guy had shown, he sniffed that he did not throw punches like that.
> 
> Well, everyone in Japan seems to throw punches like that. And if you don't, the teacher will smack you in the face. Or at least the ones I train with. When you stop leaving something open, they stop hitting you. But was I there to smack this guy in the face or do what the teacher was doing?
> 
> But far more often I have run across people that don't understand that even the mere angle of the grabbing arm determines what kind of techique is the best to use. And when you point it out, they think you just can't adapt what you are doing. The point is, we have so many things we could do because there are so many different things that can happen. Doing what is not the most approriate instals in us bad habits.


 
I believe all of these situations could be avoided if people in the Bujinkan were less afraid to talk to each other about them.


----------



## jks9199

Bigshadow said:


> I have run into that too.  I have had to explain that although that what they did was OK under other circumstances, it was not what the instructor wanted us to work on.  Trying to be polite.



It seems to be something that crosses the lines of different systems...

I've run into people who don't even try to work the technique demonstrated.  They just run it once, say "OK, got that..." and start playing around.  Or who don't even watch closely, and assume that they know what the teacher wants people to work on...    I frequently use a similar technique to yours; "I thought he did..." or "Didn't he do this?"  

Many years ago, my instructor gave me some great advice for martial arts training.  It's really simple; the secret to success is to follow directions.  (Hey, I said it was simple, I didn't say it was easy to do!)


----------



## Rich Parsons

huntly_kickboxing said:


> So we just stay staggnant and martial arts doesnt evolve, then all of you in your glass towers can cast judgement upon all the inovators searching for ,evolving, there art. I think The UFC has showen us all how ineffective alot of the moves in martial arts are, in real life they dont work, UFC was ruled by BJJ but now the mantle has moved towards wrestling,and now theres a shift to your stand up fight. If a MA uses the internet good on them. 2 minds are better then one that looks in a mirror in a dark room.
> JIM



Jim,

If I may make a comment or two sitting in my glass tower here behind the internet and all. 

The UFC has rules, no small circle locks, no joint locks. Ken Shamrock was one who petitioned for these early on as he would not make the finals in the days of the matches before the pay per view. He would have a broken hand or something else that would not allow him to fight.

Some of the shots that the Gracies did early on are also not allowed anymore. Directionaly shots to the back of the head, and such have been removed. 

If the one thing the UFC and Pride and Boxing has proven, is that it is not the gym or the art, it is how hard one trains and how hungry the indiviual is, not the system or school they train in. 


Just my thoughts from my glass tower. 


PS: MY apologies to the *Ninjutsu forum * and those who read here for being off-topic. :asian:


----------



## Alan Witty

Don Roley said:


> The point is, we have so many things we could do because there are so many different things that can happen. Doing what is not the most approriate instals in us bad habits.


 

Umm my experience is that is sometimes it takes a trained eye to see what is happening.  In Japan the last time I was asked many time by my partner "What is the right way?" .  My response was, if I was not clear, ask the Sensei as he is teaching the class.

While I agree with this point above when I am teaching if a student does not see what I am demonstrating I always let them, encourage them, to finish what they are doing.  Than I will show the technique again to provide correction.

I do this as one of my teachers pointed out that stopjutsu is also a bad thing.  His point was let it carry out and than correct -- when he was not telling my how wrong I was at the time. Anyway, his comment was that otherwise the student got in the habit of stopping and thinking.  Of course outside the Dojo this could result in a permanent stop.

Sorry if this is disjointed. Still trying to figure things on the space out.


----------



## Bigshadow

Alan Witty said:


> I do this as one of my teachers pointed out that stopjutsu is also a bad thing.



Stopjutsu is a bad habit.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Bigshadow said:


> Stopjutsu is a bad habit.


 
I would have to agree on that as well.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=664923&postcount=143


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## Alan Witty

Nimravus said:


> http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=664923&postcount=143


Hmm.  I can see this point but I do think now we are moving out of Budo in general and more into teaching and pedagogy.  I teach for a living, online college Professor, and have formal training in the area.  I also do curriculm develpment.  Just to provide background.

Hmm.  I can see this point but I do think now we are moving out of Budo in general and more into teaching and pedagogy.  I teach for a living, online college Professor, and have formal training in the area.  I also do curriculum development.  Just to provide background.

In any case there are hazards to allowing a student to continue in this situation. In the main it is the development of bad habits.  In this scenario you have to balance one set of bad habits against another.  The first is Stopjutsu which for me needs to be stopped up front.  The logic here is that it is a "fatal" or near so flaw from a combative standpoint.

The second is the failure to perceive the specific role of the Tori or Uke at that point.  I think that this can be effectively corrected after the sequence is completed and in fact the error itself can be used as a foundation for correction and learning. 

Of course I am speaking from the perspective of the teacher and not the participant while Don's "Rant" on this was from the other perspective.


----------



## Carol

Hi Alan,

Are you a godan under Hatsumi?

Just curious,

Carol


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Alan Witty said:


> Hmm. I can see this point but I do think now we are moving out of Budo in general and more into teaching and pedagogy. I teach for a living, online college Professor, and have formal training in the area. I also do curriculum development. Just to provide background.


 
That's all fine and dandy, but I believe that these two fields of study don't have the same type of commitment.



Alan Witty said:


> The first is Stopjutsu which for me needs to be stopped up front. The logic here is that it is a "fatal" or near so flaw from a combative standpoint.


 
So is "allowing" anyone to perform a killing or maiming technique on oneself, if you go to extremes.

To be a bit blunt, I don't consider that to be much of a threat unless the people involved are really stupid. But then again, if they're that stupid, they're also probably too stupid to understand the usefulness of kata practice, and as such probably won't spend much time in the Bujinkan anyway. 

I have a friend in the Buj who's worked for several years as a bouncer, and has also done guard service in the subway. He has basically the same problem as I have in that he can't always make decisions on how to do things in practice, and usually has to see things demonstrated more than once in order to replicate them. 
But it's easy to be fooled by that if you haven't seen him in action; not only does he perform well under pressure testing such as grappling or the aforementioned "Nakadai sparring", I've seen him handle himself several times in real life against people under influence (though I don't think he's aware of the fact that I was present during those times), and he moves with total confidence in himself, without hesitation.

When I train with someone I've never met before I often purposefully stop at times in the middle of a technique to see if he'll use that opportunity to counterattack "off rhythm". If he doesn't, I see that as a good sign, in that he like me is there to train and learn and not to be a jerk to people. It signifies that he too probably appreciates a moment or two to re-think his movement strategy instead of rushing everything.

After a couple of years of observing Bujinkan discussions online, what often strikes me is that people often seem to make the assumption that things can be learned much quicker than what has been my experience. I however tend to keep one thought in my mind as often as possible - that the reason I can do this so easily (or the opposite) may very well be because I have missed or misunderstood something, or that the person teaching me may have done so.


----------



## Alan Witty

Carol Kaur said:


> Hi Alan,
> 
> Are you a godan under Hatsumi?
> 
> Just curious,
> 
> Carol


Hi:

Yes.  I have been training in the Bujinkan since 1990.  My teachers are Dale Seago and Mike Simien.  Prior I studied Shotokan, Hapkido and some Kung Fu.  

I really had no desire to teach and prefer to train.  When I moved here to Ft. Collins I had a friend in Denver I trained with, one of Bill Atkins students.  Due to work the drive became a bit and so I started teaching, with Dale and Mike's permission, to further my own training.  

We are a small group so that makes it fun and finances permitting I go to Japan once a year and also to local seminars or bring in others like Mike and Dale.


----------



## Alan Witty

Nimravus said:


> That's all fine and dandy, but I believe that these two fields of study don't have the same type of commitment.
> 
> 
> 
> So is "allowing" anyone to perform a killing or maiming technique on oneself, if you go to extremes.
> 
> To be a bit blunt, I don't consider that to be much of a threat unless the people involved are really stupid. But then again, if they're that stupid, they're also probably too stupid to understand the usefulness of kata practice, and as such probably won't spend much time in the Bujinkan anyway.


 

On the first point there are sound foundations in the concepts of instruction and teaching that cross many boundaries.  It is as much a science as it is an art.  Ask my students who have families and jobs and a grueling pace in the program I teach in about commitment.  They may disagree.  In any case not a point worth debating.

On the second point I think that many people come to martial arts with a variety of skills and motivations.  Not all are fighters by nature.  That can be learned as well.  We ALL have bad habits.  This is one I choose to, and my teachers chose, to not get very far.

Not really a right or wrong thing merely an approach.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Personally, I don't believe academic studies are directly comparable to physical, energy-based studies. There are way too many things that factor in the latter, a lot of them directly related to the motivation of the people performing them. Most of the people you describe (middle-aged people with jobs and families) aren't really interested in thoroughly learning Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, what they want to do is move around.


----------



## Alan Witty

Hi:

First, the point made was that those people are indeed commited to their studies, i.e. academic. The point was not that they were studying Budo.

Second, I know many Budoka who are middle-aged, have families and are serious students of the art.

Finally, on teaching and learning there are basic and standard models on how humans learn.  Repitition, concept based, example based, etc that apply to both fields.  IMHO.

Anyway this is leading away from Don's point and I am sure if others are interested we can port to a separate thread.

Happy Holidays


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Alan Witty said:


> Second, I know many Budoka who are middle-aged, have families and are serious students of the art.


 
I do too, although I can only think of one who began in that age.


----------



## Don Roley

On another rant.....

Recently we have seen youtube just explode. A year ago, no one knew who they were. Now everyone is posting things on it.

And some of those are Budo taijutsu clips.

If someone links to a clip that is already up, I have no problem with that. If someone puts up a clip on line _of themselves,_ I have no problem with that. Heck, if someone puts up a clip of a public demonstration, I have no problem with that.

But am I the only one here that sees people putting up clips of other people teaching without their permission and thinks it is just plain wrong?

If I see a tape of me doing a demo, then I know that I was expecting people to see it. But when you are in a class, there may be things that you do not want shown to the entire world. It just seems common sense that if you have not gotten the ok from the person, you don't put clips of them up on the internet.

But then again, some people don't have common sense and some people just don't care about doing the honorable thing.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Don with the explosion of youtube I think it is very difficult to allow anyone to tape your classes or seminars unless they are a personal friend and there is an agreement in place.  Otherwise those non professional images will find themselves onto the internet in one way shape or form.

Unfortunately I think you will see less and less Japanese Shihan allowing you to tape based on what a few other's have done with placing a tape on youtube.  I have private footage of certain well know people that I would love to share to the world but I would never place it on the internet due to them asking me not to.

Another question would be is sharing something on the internet that someone else posted wrong? (youtube, etc)  This I do not know the question to.  There is not a completely black and white answer.  When
I have seen something that should not be on an intenet video site I have 
tried to contact the copyright holder or one of there people to let them know.  This has helped take down several videos that had been copyright infringed upon.  However this is a daunting task as there are to many of these to keep up with.


----------



## Don Roley

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Unfortunately I think you will see less and less Japanese Shihan allowing you to tape based on what a few other's have done with placing a tape on youtube.



Yes, I have seen that over the last year. Though the main problem was not with youtube itself.



Brian R. VanCise said:


> Another question would be is sharing something on the internet that someone else posted wrong? (youtube, etc)



I am of the opinion that only those that put it up in the first place are guilty. If only those that have no morals view these things, then those that refrain from dishonorable acts will not learn as much. It is not a case of people taking money from someone else when they view these clips. So viewing, sharing, etc is not really bad IMO. After all, does a person linking to a clip really know if it is up there without permision? But the person that puts it up knows and does it anyway.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Don Roley said:


> Yes, I have seen that over the last year. Though the main problem was not with youtube itself.
> 
> 
> 
> I am of the opinion that only those that put it up in the first place are guilty. If only those that have no morals view these things, then those that refrain from dishonorable acts will not learn as much. It is not a case of people taking money from someone else when they view these clips. So viewing, sharing, etc is not really bad IMO. After all, does a person linking to a clip really know if it is up there without permision? But the person that puts it up knows and does it anyway.


 
Don I think you have a good approach in dealing with this subject.
I hope that the Japanese Shihan that have allowed trusted students to video tape will still allow it.  Unfortunately when someone else abuses it then probably everyone will pay.


----------



## jks9199

Don Roley said:


> On another rant.....
> 
> But am I the only one here that sees people putting up clips of other people teaching without their permission and thinks it is just plain wrong?
> 
> If I see a tape of me doing a demo, then I know that I was expecting people to see it. But when you are in a class, there may be things that you do not want shown to the entire world. It just seems common sense that if you have not gotten the ok from the person, you don't put clips of them up on the internet.
> 
> But then again, some people don't have common sense and some people just don't care about doing the honorable thing.


 
I agree.  In fact, I'm NOT a fan (and never have been!) of video taping classes or seminars.  I've had someone dictate where I sat so that they could film for someone who couldn't be bothered to attend the class themselves.  (I think that sentence kind of gives a clue as to my feelings...)  It's too easy for people to worry so much about the video that they miss the entire lesson -- and video DOES NOT capture some things well at all.



Brian R. VanCise said:


> Don with the explosion of youtube I think it is very difficult to allow anyone to tape your classes or seminars unless they are a personal friend and there is an agreement in place. Otherwise those non professional images will find themselves onto the internet in one way shape or form.
> 
> 
> 
> My teacher never permits videotapes during his classes.  I follow his practice.  See my comments above...  We do, however, positively encourage written notetaking!
> 
> 
> 
> Another question would be is sharing something on the internet that someone else posted wrong? (youtube, etc) This I do not know the question to. There is not a completely black and white answer. When
> I have seen something that should not be on an intenet video site I have
> tried to contact the copyright holder or one of there people to let them know. This has helped take down several videos that had been copyright infringed upon. However this is a daunting task as there are to many of these to keep up with.
Click to expand...

 


Don Roley said:


> I am of the opinion that only those that put it up in the first place are guilty. If only those that have no morals view these things, then those that refrain from dishonorable acts will not learn as much. It is not a case of people taking money from someone else when they view these clips. So viewing, sharing, etc is not really bad IMO. After all, does a person linking to a clip really know if it is up there without permision? But the person that puts it up knows and does it anyway.


 
Sharing privately between people is a personal matter (with some exceptions when it gets into media piracy).  But posting something without the permission of both the owner and the subject is just plain wrong.  There are several reasons that I wouldn't want to look in YouTube and see my face.  Among them is the simple fact that it could cause professional complications or be used against me in court.  (There is already a lengthy thread that hits on those issues under the Toshindo/SKH sub-forum here.)  And I don't want to turn around, and see someone claiming to do a form the same way I do, unless I taught it to them.  I might do something weird for my own purposes that I'll not teach them without explaining...  and I had to sweat and toil to learn that.  You can do the same, the same ways I did.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

A few random ruminations on sparring...

I believe that children have the right to be children for as long as they can. I also believe that everyone is entitled to those few first months of taijutsu training where you walk around feeling totally invincible. The crucial part, IMO, is how you're brought out of that phase.

For most people, my guess would be that this happens through training with a new person, either someone from a different dojo or a complete newbie who hasn't yet acquired his Bujinkan "mannerisms". Perhaps he moves that foot a full step back and regains his balance just as you're trying to do that cool sweep. Perhaps he rotates inwards to regain his balance just while you think you've got a perfect omote opportunity (whether you start wrestling with him or ask your instructor what's gone wrong tells something about you as a person, I'll leave it at that). And that's probably natural. Sometimes, however, it happens through the implementation of sparring at a really inopportune moment. 

He's slashing at you with that training knife and you don't know why you're suddenly unable to catch his arm. He's throwing jabs and hooks at you and you're wondering why you're so unused at protecting your head. Or, you're on the ground grappling and your habit of holding your breath during techniques brings you to the point of exhaustion extremely quickly.

The most problematic part of this is that a lot of the time when this happens, the beginners are never told WHY it is happening, or at the most getting to hear that "they've got something to think about". At that point, most people aren't likely to look in the mirror - where they should be looking - instead, they're more likely to think that they've been taught incorrectly, or that there is something fundamentally wrong with the system. 
These are the very situations that cause people to walk out of the dojo angered and seek out the closest MMA or kickboxing gym available. Some of these people I've met didn't seem like they had a clue about why they were practicing kata in the dojo - that's a kind of lump-it-all-together kind of thinking that honestly scares me. My personal opinion is that if your instructor can't tell you anything about why you're unsuccessful, you shouldn't be training with him.

Naturally, some people don't have the means or the will to seek out other instructors who can tell them why things go south when the level of speed and intent is highered. That's when you have all the self-righteous hybrid practitioners entering into the equation, who've looked all over to fill out the gaps they've perceived in Bujinkan training (everywhere except to other Bujinkan instructors), whose students enroll expecting to be taught Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu but are in actuality getting something else. 
Now you can try to circumvent the issue all you want by talking about "testable" training and "proven" competition results and whatever. That does not change the fact that what most people who adapt "pressure testing" at regular intervals in training are doing _is not Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu._ Period.* If you with all your Western sass went into the Bujinkan expecting to learn to fight first and foremost, the fault lies with YOU and no one else. The purpose of training in the Bujinkan is to properly learn Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, and most who would spar all-out early on have not learned the stuff well enough to be able to call what they're doing Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. 
You don't care about any so-called "bad habits"? Fine. But in that case, there are better places for you to be than in the Bujinkan. I've met several people within the Bujinkan who would probably be fearsome fighters even without taijutsu training. But something that's extremely often overlooked is the fact that what these people are capable of is simply not workable for someone of smaller size and strength.

Where I train, sparring does occur from time to time, and one of our relative beginners even has a habit of doing a grappling match with our head instructor after every session. However, we're NOT the type of people who consider sparring a crucial part of finding out "what works", and - at least with said head instructor - I can't recall a sparring session that wasn't later touched upon, in that several pointers were given as to what parts of our taijutsu goes out the window.

I'll return to this issue later after I've had a nap and dealt with some other stuff.





* I'm not simply talking about physical techniques.


----------



## Don Roley

Nimravus said:


> The most problematic part of this is that a lot of the time when this happens, the beginners are never told WHY it is happening, or at the most getting to hear that "they've got something to think about". At that point, most people aren't likely to look in the mirror - where they should be looking - instead, they're more likely to think that they've been taught incorrectly, or that there is something fundamentally wrong with the system.



I know people that are in the system that do not have these problems. Little guys with names that are difficult to pronounce. So it is not the system, at least not at the top. Their advice for this type of situation is to go over the basics. The problem is, there are very very few people IMO that have basics up to their levels. The excuses you say are given are the perfect ones to cover over a lack of these basics.

After all, why admit you don't have the basics enough to teach others and ruin their image of you as a great teacher when you can pull off a semi-zen moment by saying they have something to think about? :uhyeah: 

Good rant.


----------



## Rubber Tanto

Nimravus said:


> The most problematic part of this is that a lot of the time when this happens, the beginners are never told WHY it is happening, or at the most getting to hear that "they've got something to think about". At that point, most people aren't likely to look in the mirror - where they should be looking - instead, they're more likely to think that they've been taught incorrectly, or that there is something fundamentally wrong with the system.
> These are the very situations that cause people to walk out of the dojo angered and seek out the closest MMA or kickboxing gym available. Some of these people I've met didn't seem like they had a clue about why they were practicing kata in the dojo - that's a kind of lump-it-all-together kind of thinking that honestly scares me. My personal opinion is that if your instructor can't tell you anything about why you're unsuccessful, you shouldn't be training with him.


 
I could not agree more.
Kata teaches us very much, granted, but it can also make us feel bullet proof when we think we have a technique down pat. How many times has a sensei said "now we will be working on (technique X) and you either see certain people's face light up or hear a "yesss" or as someone said once "this is my favourite"
Sure this is great. But once that same person tries that move for the first time in pressure testing (people always try their favourite move first in pressure testing I've found) and they quickly learn to things...1) that trying to get something on under resistance suddenly doesn't quite work the same, and 2) that you can't just predetermine what you are going to do in a fight.




Nimravus said:


> Where I train, sparring does occur from time to time, and one of our relative beginners even has a habit of doing a grappling match with our head instructor after every session. However, we're NOT the type of people who consider sparring a crucial part of finding out "what works", and - at least with said head instructor - I can't recall a sparring session that wasn't later touched upon, in that several pointers were given as to what parts of our taijutsu goes out the window.


 
at our dojo we have 1 class every week that just focusses on sparring and pressure testing. AFter a rotation of probably 3 x 3 min rounds with different opponents, we will all sit on the floor and talk about what went wrong, what went right and how to fix anything broke. Sometimes just letting astudent talk about his sparring experience at his own pace gives him a moment of self-reflection to actually answer some of his own dillemas.

~Nick





* I'm not simply talking about physical techniques.[/quote]


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Rubber Tanto said:


> that you can't just predetermine what you are going to do in a fight.


 
What we're probably going to disagree on is that frequent pressure testing bears exactly the same problem with it, which is what I touched upon earlier. I know of several people who at first appear to be genuinely interested in taijutsu as an art, but as soon as it's time to do some randori they don't even try to use any of that "weird stuff" and their kickboxing is employed instead.



Rubber Tanto said:


> at our dojo we have 1 class every week that just focusses on sparring and pressure testing. AFter a rotation of probably 3 x 3 min rounds with different opponents, we will all sit on the floor and talk about what went wrong, what went right and how to fix anything broke. Sometimes just letting astudent talk about his sparring experience at his own pace gives him a moment of self-reflection to actually answer some of his own dillemas.


 


Nimravus said:


> However, we're NOT the type of people who consider sparring a crucial part of finding out "what works",



If sparring is a main point in training, being told what's going wrong doesn't make things a whole lot better. Again - I do not have confidence in people learning stuff that quickly. It's the same when people bring up Takamatsu and his fights as examples of sparring being beneficial. Anyone who says so is also inferring that he/she has the same grasp of ryuha kata and basics as Takamatsu had when he went off to try himself. BS. Bottom line - most people who would spar early on can't even perform kata correctly on a cooperative partner. Fix that first, and when your arms aren't vibrating anymore, your legs aren't straight and he can't regain his balance, then we can talk about some scrapping.


----------



## Rubber Tanto

Though you make it sound as if all we do is sparring. Our dojo has classes every night and some nights double classes. every second monday is sparring for 5th kyu and up. avery first is for 3rd to 5th kyu.

I have actually found my sparring time very helpful to my kata training. when I finally start to "see" under pressure, I see a whole lot clearer when working on the kata.



> What we're probably going to disagree on is that frequent pressure testing bears exactly the same problem with it, which is what I touched upon earlier. I know of several people who at first appear to be genuinely interested in taijutsu as an art, but as soon as it's time to do some randori they don't even try to use any of that "weird stuff" and their kickboxing is employed instead.


 
No, that is a training fault in that who ever trains them lets the training go beyond theur capabilities. If I am pressure testing my opponent and they have to either a) stop using their taijutsu or b) adopted some hybrid kickboxing stance or c) just getting smothered, then I have the logic to tone it down to a speed and force that they can once again deal with using the principles and techniques of our art.



> If sparring is a main point in training, being told what's going wrong doesn't make things a whole lot better.


 
Interesting comment. How so?
I'll provide an example. "Tony you kept getting hit in the head because you werern't taking angles and you subconciously lean forward a lot"
This information is not helpful because...


----------



## Kichigai-no-Okami

Damn.  Reading this thread makes me want to put my white belt back on, shave my head, and sweep out my Shidoshi's home.  Gotta say that i wholehartedly concure with some of what Don had to say about going back to basics.  Sloppy basics(kihon an sanchin no kata, etc.) make for some (blank)'ed-up advanced technique and nagare.  I _constantly _have to review basics, because even though ive been doing this (Ninpo) awhile, i have other "physical situations" i deal with, so learning to adapt kata to me personally is a full time job in itself.  Basics are the building block in which i need to do this, even though sometimes it feels like i'm in "Ninpo for Dummies".   :mst: 

B-


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Rubber Tanto said:


> Though you make it sound as if all we do is sparring. Our dojo has classes every night and some nights double classes. every second monday is sparring for 5th kyu and up. avery first is for 3rd to 5th kyu.


 
If your purpose of sparring is to find out "what works", and that is a main part of your training, then yes, I have a problem with that.



Rubber Tanto said:


> I have actually found my sparring time very helpful to my kata training. when I finally start to "see" under pressure, I see a whole lot clearer when working on the kata.


 
Great, you're different from all the jerks I've met whom it didn't do any good.



Rubber Tanto said:


> No, that is a training fault in that who ever trains them lets the training go beyond theur capabilities. If I am pressure testing my opponent and they have to either a) stop using their taijutsu or b) adopted some hybrid kickboxing stance or c) just getting smothered, then I have the logic to tone it down to a speed and force that they can once again deal with using the principles and techniques of our art.


 
See above.



Rubber Tanto said:


> Interesting comment. How so?
> I'll provide an example. "Tony you kept getting hit in the head because you werern't taking angles and you subconciously lean forward a lot"
> This information is not helpful because...


 
Because of the simple fact that one of the basic premises for learning Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu is to first learn to do stuff slowly and correctly within a fixed setting. I do not believe for one second that people will end up with better taijutsu if they're subjected to pressure from the moment they start out.


----------



## Seattletcj

Nimravus said:


> Because of the simple fact that one of the basic premises for learning Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu is to first learn to do stuff slowly and correctly within a fixed setting. I do not believe for one second that people will end up with better taijutsu if they're subjected to pressure from the moment they start out.



I dont think RT, or anyone for that matter is advocating sparring on day one.
Many MMA gyms I know of for instance only allow sparring after 6 months. Some after 3 months etc.
As for pressure testing and alive drilling, its good to get a real sense of what to expect as far as timing and resistance fairly early, in order to train 
accordingly. But, basics are more important in these early stages done slowly and correctly, I agree.


----------



## Rubber Tanto

Nimravus said:


> If your purpose of sparring is to find out "what works", and that is a main part of your training, then yes, I have a problem with that.


 
Nope. I agree. The purpose of sparring is not to find out what works. But to find out how to work what you know when the person your training with is no longer static.




Nimravus said:


> Because of the simple fact that one of the basic premises for learning Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu is to first learn to do stuff slowly and correctly within a fixed setting. I do not believe for one second that people will end up with better taijutsu if they're subjected to pressure from the moment they start out.


 
And I agree 100%



			
				Seattletcj said:
			
		

> I dont think RT, or anyone for that matter is advocating sparring on day one.
> Many MMA gyms I know of for instance only allow sparring after 6 months. Some after 3 months etc.
> As for pressure testing and alive drilling, its good to get a real sense of what to expect as far as timing and resistance fairly early, in order to train
> accordingly. But, basics are more important in these early stages done slowly and correctly, I agree.


Exactly.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Aiight, new rant, new subject...

Every now and then I run into people who started training in the 80's or early 90's, but haven't trained for a few years up until now. If I didn't know what I was looking at, there's a good chance I'd say that what these people most often demonstrate and what I'm practicing nowadays are completely different arts. I honestly don't know what to do with them and their shikan ken punches with a Hunchback of Notre Dame-esque forwards lean, their constant use of pinches and hair pulls and eye pokes and throat claws, their ridiculous start-out distance or total lack of fluid footwork. And if it's not that, it's their sheer reckless brutality which they're often quick to defend with stuff like "what, you want to learn how to defend yourself for real, don't you!?" 

The one good thing about these people is that they tend to follow up techniques with controlling holds after they've brought their opponent to the ground, which I think is something we're getting sloppier with nowadays. But overall, these people make you realize that nostalgia is what finally pushes you over the edge when you're sitting there on the couch with a gun barrel between your teeth weighing pro's and cons. 

This from a guy whose teacher's teacher is the only gaijin who hasn't visited Japan since about '97 or '98 who is still remembered by all the Japanese shihan.


----------



## Don Roley

Nimravus said:


> Aiight, new rant, new subject...
> 
> Every now and then I run into people who started training in the 80's or early 90's, but haven't trained for a few years up until now. If I didn't know what I was looking at, there's a good chance I'd say that what these people most often demonstrate and what I'm practicing nowadays are completely different arts.



I think there is a lot of that out there. I remember the 80s and how people who wanted to teach sword did not get if from a Bujinkan source, but from aikido. If they had never seen the knife work in the Bujinkan, they either came up with their own stances based on Hayes' godai, or borrowed a bit of FMA.

I think we are in the process of trying to get rid of these old habits and replace them with Bujinkan ones. I do not see coming to Japan as a means of getting new techniques, but rather to correct old habits. I can't be the only one to look at a lot of currently training members and think that they have more in common with the martial art they studied prior to Bujinkan than what the Japanese are doing.


----------



## Don Roley

I can't believe I have not ranted about this before, but here goes.

Have you ever seen (or been) someone who can't get the move right as it is shown. So they *increase* the amount of speed and strength they use?

I think I have been one of the guilty on a few occasions in my early stage of training. I hope I got over it. Because looking at someone doing it really makes me want to shake my head.

If you can't get a subtle move you have seen for the first time down at normal speed, what makes you think you can do it _even faster?_ 

It is not like we have not been told time and time again in various messages by Hatsumi to train slowly, get the correct movement down and then after a lot of training like that start to increase the speed until it is lighting fast. That does take time. But hell, I have seen the alternate and it ain't pretty.

I dare say this- If you are doing something that the teacher showed and are panting while he never had to, _you are doing something wrong and need to slow down the training and use less muscle._

Can I *be* any clearer? :soapbox:


----------



## Bigshadow

I have been guilty of it, early on and have certainly seen quite a few do that.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

The older someone is, the more likely it is that he'll be going for your throat.

You know you're training with someone really special when all of a sudden you realize you've regained your balance and you're still screwed.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

The first time you throw a punch, your arm may rotate into a horizontal punch, or you might try to generate power simply by extending your triceps similar to a hammerfist, or you might punch with your thumb inside your fist, depending on your age, gender and martial arts experience.
The second time you punch, you pull your arm back to a coiled position and then let it loose, thinking that the muscle tension will let you punch more effectively.
The third time, your front foot will be rotated inwards at a 90 degree angle because you're afraid of stepping too far and losing your balance.
After that, your hips swing into position half a second before the punch is thrown, robbing you of power.
Then your arm rotates again.
Then you don't punch through your target.
Then you start out with a totally straight front arm with the fingers apart.
Then you bob up and down instead of staying on the same level.
Then your rear knee is rotated in the wrong direction, which will cause irrevocable damage if you keep it up for a few years without anyone telling you about it.
Then you rotate your front foot too far and at the wrong moment, which affects your balance.
Then you lean forwards too much.
Then you forget to have your upper body turned sideways in order to become a smaller target.
Then the elbow of your rear arm is too far out, leaving your kidneys, lungs, heart and stomach with less protection.
Then you pull your front arm back before your punching arm comes forth, exposing your head.
Then you hit with the wrong set of knuckles, which may damage your wrist.
Then you forget that a Gyokko ryu punch is supposed to come at a different angle.
Then you're not bending your knees enough to utilize sufficient power.
Then you step too far and lose your balance.
Then you clench your fist too early and telegraph your punch.
Then your elbow is not aligned with your spine when you connect with the punch.
Then you don't punch far enough to actually reach your opponent.
Then your punch is aimed at where your opponent is heading instead of where he's at, because you know what he's going to do beforehand.
Then you do all the other faults I can't think of right now but exist nonetheless.

So to all people who seem to believe that they can teach people to punch correctly, and consistently so, in just a couple of sessions - no offense, but you can go to hell.


----------



## meta_aesthete

This is one of the 10 truest things I've ever read.

Hell, I'd be happy with being able to walk and stand correctly at this point.


----------



## Symbiote_X

Nimravus said:


> The first time you throw a punch, your arm may rotate into a horizontal punch, or you might try to generate power simply by extending your triceps similar to a hammerfist, or you might punch with your thumb inside your fist, depending on your age, gender and martial arts experience.
> The second time you punch, you pull your arm back to a coiled position and then let it loose, thinking that the muscle tension will let you punch more effectively.
> The third time, your front foot will be rotated inwards at a 90 degree angle because you're afraid of stepping too far and losing your balance.
> After that, your hips swing into position half a second before the punch is thrown, robbing you of power.
> Then your arm rotates again.
> Then you don't punch through your target.
> Then you start out with a totally straight front arm with the fingers apart.
> Then you bob up and down instead of staying on the same level.
> Then your rear knee is rotated in the wrong direction, which will cause irrevocable damage if you keep it up for a few years without anyone telling you about it.
> Then you rotate your front foot too far and at the wrong moment, which affects your balance.
> Then you lean forwards too much.
> Then you forget to have your upper body turned sideways in order to become a smaller target.
> Then the elbow of your rear arm is too far out, leaving your kidneys, lungs, heart and stomach with less protection.
> Then you pull your front arm back before your punching arm comes forth, exposing your head.
> Then you hit with the wrong set of knuckles, which may damage your wrist.
> Then you forget that a Gyokko ryu punch is supposed to come at a different angle.
> Then you're not bending your knees enough to utilize sufficient power.
> Then you step too far and lose your balance.
> Then you clench your fist too early and telegraph your punch.
> Then your elbow is not aligned with your spine when you connect with the punch.
> Then you don't punch far enough to actually reach your opponent.
> Then your punch is aimed at where your opponent is heading instead of where he's at, because you know what he's going to do beforehand.
> Then you do all the other faults I can't think of right now but exist nonetheless.
> 
> So to all people who seem to believe that they can teach people to punch correctly, and consistently so, in just a couple of sessions - no offense, but you can go to hell.



It looks like a list of all my mistakes I have done in the last 4 classes (my 4 first classes ever) trying to learn a basic Tsuki. Lucky for me Im still young  and have a few decades in front of me to learn and program my body to move efficiently. hehe


----------



## onikarasu

Then your rear knee is rotated in the wrong direction, which will cause irrevocable damage if you keep it up for a few years without anyone telling you about it.
Nimravus if possible could you please explain this further. I don't think i'm doing it but you never know. Thankyou


----------



## Don Roley

onikarasu said:


> Then your rear knee is rotated in the wrong direction, which will cause irrevocable damage if you keep it up for a few years without anyone telling you about it.
> Nimravus if possible could you please explain this further. I don't think i'm doing it but you never know. Thankyou



Allow me to jump in.

Nimravus is correct in pointing this out. If your knees are not _exactly_ over your toes as you extend, you will do a little bit of damage each time you do it. This goes for both the lead and the rear leg. Your knee should be pointing in the same direction as your toes. After a few years of daily training, it adds up. I noticed that with the crowd of people that came into Japan for the DKMS last year, there were a few older practicioners who could not do the sitting practice due to their use of a cane.

The Japanese shihan are all spry with no knee problems. They practice correctly. Those that have knee problems quite probably have not been practicing correctly. If they are teachers, it is a good chance that they have not been _teaching_ correctly. I know of one guy who actually said that he did not teach the san shin because it was bad for the knees. He refused to admit that if the Japanese shihan had been doing san shin for decadesand had good knees, then the chances were that the san shin does not damage the knees if done  correctly and he was probably not doing it correctly.

It is difficult to tell if your knees are in  the right position when doing stuff. This is where you need a good teacher that knows what he is doing and is able to watch and correct you before you build bad habits into your taijutsu. A friend of mine said that teaching martial arts is like teaching his daughter to drive. Every time he tells someone to do something they respond "I AM!" Obviously, they are not. We just do not see that sort of thing in ourselves 99 percent of the time. To our way of seeing things, we are relaxed as we drive and our knees are perfectly positioned.

But many, many people have the wrong position based on my observation. It will cause problems if not corrected. I would urge people who come to Japan to get to a Japanese shihan like Someya with a small class and ask them to check their knee position if there is even the slightest doubt about the accuracy. It takes only a little time to do if you are doing it correct, and if you are doing it wrong now you can avoid damaging your knees over the decades.


----------



## onikarasu

Don thankyou for your excellent answer.I have heard that thing about toe knee alignment, and it is something I keep an eye on especialy the back leg.I have allways thought that the sanshin should build stronger knees not break them down.Again thankyou for your reply.


----------



## jks9199

Don Roley said:


> It is difficult to tell if your knees are in the right position when doing stuff. This is where you need a good teacher that knows what he is doing and is able to watch and correct you before you build bad habits into your taijutsu. A friend of mine said that teaching martial arts is like teaching his daughter to drive. Every time he tells someone to do something they respond "I AM!" Obviously, they are not. We just do not see that sort of thing in ourselves 99 percent of the time. To our way of seeing things, we are relaxed as we drive and our knees are perfectly positioned.


 
This paragraph is worth repeating...

Whatever your art, you need a skilled teacher with the right "eyes" to see and correct you.  Too many people, in too many arts, are teaching when they've never learned some of these pieces -- or if they learned them, they don't know how to teach them.  I was incredibly fortunate in having a teacher who not only taught me these pieces in my style (and many of them are common to multiple styles!)... but taught me to see them.

But I still need his eyes on my form occasionally, too!


----------



## Rubber Tanto

Nimravus said:


> The first time you throw a punch, your arm may rotate into a horizontal punch, or you might try to generate power simply by extending your triceps similar to a hammerfist, or you might punch with your thumb inside your fist, depending on your age, gender and martial arts experience.
> The second time you punch, you pull your arm back to a coiled position and then let it loose, thinking that the muscle tension will let you punch more effectively.
> The third time, your front foot will be rotated inwards at a 90 degree angle because you're afraid of stepping too far and losing your balance.
> After that, your hips swing into position half a second before the punch is thrown, robbing you of power.
> Then your arm rotates again.
> Then you don't punch through your target.
> Then you start out with a totally straight front arm with the fingers apart.
> Then you bob up and down instead of staying on the same level.
> Then your rear knee is rotated in the wrong direction, which will cause irrevocable damage if you keep it up for a few years without anyone telling you about it.
> Then you rotate your front foot too far and at the wrong moment, which affects your balance.
> Then you lean forwards too much.
> Then you forget to have your upper body turned sideways in order to become a smaller target.
> Then the elbow of your rear arm is too far out, leaving your kidneys, lungs, heart and stomach with less protection.
> Then you pull your front arm back before your punching arm comes forth, exposing your head.
> Then you hit with the wrong set of knuckles, which may damage your wrist.
> Then you forget that a Gyokko ryu punch is supposed to come at a different angle.
> Then you're not bending your knees enough to utilize sufficient power.
> Then you step too far and lose your balance.
> Then you clench your fist too early and telegraph your punch.
> Then your elbow is not aligned with your spine when you connect with the punch.
> Then you don't punch far enough to actually reach your opponent.
> Then your punch is aimed at where your opponent is heading instead of where he's at, because you know what he's going to do beforehand.
> Then you do all the other faults I can't think of right now but exist nonetheless.
> 
> So to all people who seem to believe that they can teach people to punch correctly, and consistently so, in just a couple of sessions - no offense, but you can go to hell.


 
wow...you really sucked at punching...lol
have you figured out to punch yet?
when will you start doing kata?


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Rubber Tanto said:


> wow...you really sucked at punching...lol
> have you figured out to punch yet?
> when will you start doing kata?


 
If you don't think you did all those things or more when you began, and that you don't occasionally do some of them still, you're lying. Period.


----------



## Don Roley

Nimravus said:


> So to all people who seem to believe that they can teach people to punch correctly, and consistently so, in just a couple of sessions - no offense, but you can go to hell.



You know, I heard the story that on his deathbed the great Funakoshi is said to have given a basic punch toward the ceiling and muttered, "If I could understand only this, I would die happy."

Just this week I observed a guy some of us have speculated might be in the running to be the next soke getting some fine tuning on his punching skills from one of Hatsumi's original students. If someone that good still needs some imput from their seniors from time to time, how about the rest of us?

It is only the inexperienced and the foolish that think that they have gotten the basics down. Happily, inexperience can be cured.


----------



## Ronnin

shesulsa said:


> Sam, actually there is a lot of sensitive politics surrounding Hatsumi and the study of ninjutsu outside of his dojo as well as people taking a hanful of lessons from Hatsumi and then bringing their notes to the US and elsewhere to teach it themselves, so this forum is appropriate for this particular rant.
> 
> If you'd like to start a thread in General for all-around rants, feel free.


 
Do any of Hatsumi's top students i.e, Nagato and the like, go oversees for seminars? I don't hear of them coming around my way all that often. If they do then that may be the perfect time for Hatsumi to "keep an eye on training correctly".


----------



## Don Roley

Ronnin said:


> Do any of Hatsumi's top students i.e, Nagato and the like, go oversees for seminars? I don't hear of them coming around my way all that often. If they do then that may be the perfect time for Hatsumi to "keep an eye on training correctly".



Taken from Joji Ohashi's site.



> Message from Soke (1) (July/02/2000)
> (On oversea seminars by Japanese Shihan & behavior on the Internet)
> 
> 
> 
> *From the Webmaster --
> Soke, Nagato-shihan and I had a small meeting on July 2 and I was asked to spread the following message from Soke.
> (This is NOT what Soke wrote by himself. We had a talk and I compiled what (I think) Soke had told me to spread. I believe I never miss his points here, but I can't guarantee that my memory is perfect. Additionally, my English is far from perfect. So, please try not to read it literally but to catch his feeling as we are often told at his classes.)
> 
> Here we go.
> 
> 
> It seems that many overseas training participants would like Japanese Shihan to conduct seminars at their places.
> Yet, if these Japanese Shihan were to conduct oversea seminars, I see the potential for numerous problems. For example, if a participant were to be injured, it's possible the conductor could be sued for damages and then his life could be severely affected. Even if they were to contract beforehand not to sue for damages, such a contract might not act as expected.
> Furthermore, if the injured party were a member of the Armed Forces etc., it's possible a political problem might arise.
> Due mainly to the reason stated above, I can not permit Japanese Shihan to go overseas and conduct seminars. Therefore, I'd like everyone not to ask Japanese Shihan to conduct oversea seminars.
> I know that some people still want to do so in spite of my decision. Yet, as the level of their skill has advanced recently in various countries, I feel it's best if you yourselves conduct these seminars. There's no reason to go all the way to asking Japanese Shihan to conduct these seminars. Be confident and persevere.


----------



## Seattletcj

Don Roley said:


> The Japanese shihan are all spry with no knee problems. They practice correctly. Those that have knee problems quite probably have not been practicing correctly. If they are teachers, it is a good chance that they have not been _teaching_ correctly. I know of one guy who actually said that he did not teach the san shin because it was bad for the knees. He refused to admit that if the Japanese shihan had been doing san shin for decadesand had good knees, then the chances were that the san shin does not damage the knees if done  correctly and he was probably not doing it correctly.



LOL
It has nothing to do with body size, weight, genetics, or the fact that they have been sitting on their knees everyday since they were young kids.

Naaaah


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Seattletcj said:


> LOL
> It has nothing to do with body size, weight,


 
If Don is referring to whom I think he is, it's pretty much only about those two.


----------



## Don Roley

Seattletcj said:


> LOL
> It has nothing to do with body size, weight, genetics, or the fact that they have been sitting on their knees everyday since they were young kids.
> 
> Naaaah



Everything except body weight really is not a factor. Sitting on the knees might, but there are no differences in the number of people with knee problems between Japanese and Americans as far as I know. And some of the guys that try to press for a Japanese- uber alles type of thing in some of the Japanese media would have mentioned it if there had been some evidence to think that seiza helps improve the knees.

So yeah, Japanese guys that have done san shin for decades all have good knees. If you do san shin and have bad knees, it is not the fault of the san shin but more likely the way you mistakenly practiced it. Or maybe you need to lose some weight or give up on something from another part of your life causing the problems.


----------



## wade

I've had two knee operations, one for each knee, does that count? One from a training accident and one from being hit head on while riding my Harley. Oh yeah, I guess I could lose weight too, huh?


----------



## Don Roley

One more thing,

Some of us complain about the wierdos that are attracted to this art. The rambo- wanna- bes, the guys expecting to become jedi knights and the guys that are looking to sneak around in a black suit and look through other people's windows. We complain about them.

But have you looked at some of the web sites for some of the dojos?

_Why on earth_ would someone put pictures of them and their students running around with black suits on in the dark, or with sniper rifles? Just a picture of the teacher meditating in front of a Japanese temple makes me laugh. Big shows that are obviously staged tells me a lot about a person- and what I hear is that I don't want to be near them.

Yeah, a lot of frauds put the pictures of guys with assault rifles, black masks and running around in the woods with swords on the internet to attract students. I am talking about the legitimate guys that do the same thing. Do they want the type of student that is attracted by those images?

And of course, they may not get everyone who sees their web page to train with them, but a lot of the guys that are looking for the militia LARP thing then tend to go for home-study courses and wander over to the discussion boards and make life miserable for the rest of us.:shooter:


----------



## Bujin

I totally agree with you Mr Roley,

But lets not forget the ones putting up pictures of themselves on their internetpages although they look like the spaghetti man or the +100 kg guys, or the ones looking like they cant hurt a fly...

Best Regards / Skuggvarg


----------



## Symbiote_X

Bujin said:


> I totally agree with you Mr Roley,
> 
> But lets not forget the ones putting up pictures of themselves on their internetpages although they look like the spaghetti man or the +100 kg guys, or the ones looking like they cant hurt a fly...
> 
> Best Regards / Skuggvarg



No sure if I get your point but if you judge a person/martial artist by its looks you gonna hit a wall at some point. They "look like they cant hurt a fly"... so what? Is important that you look like a badass to be a good Martial artist?

Your comment looks exactly like what Don was "ranting" about...

People who puts "looks" in front of the "art".

Maybe I didn't understand your comment well... if it is so I'm sorry but it didn't feel right when I reading your comment.


----------



## wade

Hey Don, you talking about me, man? WOW. That really hurts............


----------



## Cryozombie

wade said:


> Hey Don, you talking about me, man? WOW. That really hurts............



Nah, man, I think he meant me... I wanna be a jedi.


----------



## meta_aesthete

Don Roley said:


> I am talking about the legitimate guys that do the same thing. Do they want the type of student that is attracted by those images?


 
It sounds crass, but one of the biggest factors in choosing my school is its name: "Boston Martial Arts Center." If you then bother to look at the subtitle, it says "New England Ninpo Society." 

Although I keep forgetting ask my shidoshi if it was his reasoning, it seems like a good way to avoid as many nutbags as possible. And it made me feel a lot better that I wasn't joining a *"Black Dragon Ninja Death Cult."*


----------



## wade

Actually, I like the sound of "Black Dragon Ninja Death Cult'. It has a kind of down home flavor to it. Beside, I think I know some of those people.

Ah, wait, I think this where we get to the part where I wander over to the discussion boards and make life miserable for the rest of you. 

Cryzombia, come on, a Jedi, man, don't you know by now that the dark side gets to wear all the cool outfits.


----------



## Don Roley

Bujin said:


> I totally agree with you Mr Roley,
> 
> But lets not forget the ones putting up pictures of themselves on their internetpages although they look like the spaghetti man or the +100 kg guys, or the ones looking like they cant hurt a fly...
> 
> Best Regards / Skuggvarg



I think Symbiote_X did a pretty good job of pointing out the problems I have with what you wrote.

I am concerned with things that are going to make things difficult for me. If someone will not train with me when and if I move back and start teaching because someone did not look macho enough for them on another Bujinkan site, then they are the type of students I want least to be training with me in the first place. I want them to go elsewhere if they are only attracted by images of perfect bodies. I train with guys that are old, wrinkled and short. And they still beat me like a red headed stepchild whenever they want.

But it is the guys that put up images of militia type training that attracts the nut cases to the art and they wander into a place I could be teaching at. I don't want people like that even more. Especially since it looks like the guys that fondle rifles on the internet pages most never made it through military AIT and the guys with photos of themselves meditating in front of Japanese lanterns act the least like saints.

If someone does not want to train because we don't look macho enough, that is a good thing as far as I am concerned. But when we are facing possible threats of martial arts legislation, bans and such, the last thing anyone with 'ninja' even slightly associated with what they do is this type of attention.


----------



## Reiker

I usually tend to lurk around here, I hope I don't step on any ones toes... 

I never really understood the whole guns and cammo thing myself and found it pretty annoying.  In an age when most peoples first impressions are forged on the internet (it's not right but it is the case), to me a guy dressed like Rambo on the internet site advertising his dojo screams 'Run he's a nutter!'  I can't for the life of me think why someone legit would do it.

Ah well what does a lowly kyu grade like me know any way?


----------



## kouryuu

Reiker said:


> Ah well what does a lowly kyu grade like me know any way?


 
More than the guy in cammo running around with guns:ultracool


----------



## wade

See Reiker, that's why you "need" people like me. It makes all the rest of you look so freaking respectable. Trust me, my trousers are cammo and they go really well with my black motor cycle boots, skull and cross bones tattoo, etc. So, you are all very welcome. I have done my job. Now, don't you feel better and much much more legitimate in your martial art. I try but I have just never been able to fit the Yoda concept, it just doesn't work for some one like me. Oh yeah, and I do like guns too.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

So what about me? I'm pretty much sponsored by www.drjays.com and www.urbanvenom.com


----------



## Reiker

it wasn't my intention to cause offense.

What you wear 'on the street' or wether you like guns isn't really what I (me I don't know about any one else) meant.

I was picking up on something I have noticed alot myself (don't ask for examples this is a generalisation  ) of dojo sites.  Where some people seem to be trying to legitimise their Bujinkan/Martial art dojo by posting pictures of themselves running around the woods with guns (personally I think it gives the wrong impression).

If you want to run around with guns wearing camo that fine, join the TA (or whatever your local equivelent is), but if someone is basically using imagery to say 'Look I have a big gun! I can teach you Ninjitsu!" it's kinda misreprestenting Budo Taijutsu/Martial Art a bit don't you think?

It may all be a cultural thing 

I'm sure anyone would have trouble fitting the concept of small green guy with speach impediment!  

wrt drjays etc.  not really my style (I would just look silly..  )  but cool.  Do you post pictures of yourself in those clothes on your dojo webite and claim to be an urban ninja though?  Or (assuming you have a dojo website) do you wear your gi and say this is what budo taijutsu is but may just turn up to training in your casual cloths?   

pah I've got all my words twisted here.  it's not how you dress/what you do in your spare time, it's how you advertise your martial art, you have responsibility to more than yourself with that (Soke in regards to Bujinkan). 

Regards,
Reiker.


----------



## Don Roley

Reiker said:


> If you want to run around with guns wearing camo that fine, join the TA (or whatever your local equivelent is), but if someone is basically using imagery to say 'Look I have a big gun! I can teach you Ninjitsu!" it's kinda misreprestenting Budo Taijutsu/Martial Art a bit don't you think?



I could not agree more.

But of course, the biggest offenders I can think of are neither able to hack the rigors of basic training in the military or really have much knowledge of taijutsu. Their stuff is pretty much "Hollywood ninjutsu." Flashy and pretty instead of the quite competence that true masters have.

I can point to a lot of sites like that. I think that the one thread that binds them all together is that they are not complete people. They have a need to posture as if they were more than they are and (probably due to some unresolved problems relating to latent tendancies) need to prove how macho they are to the world. We get a lot of people like that showing up to Bujinkan training looking to be some sort of tough commando. But real toughness is just being a good spouse, father, provider and supporter of ideals greater than your own self. It is not calling attention to yourself. It is being willing to be just a small cog in a greater machine if that is what it takes to make the world a better place.

And it is something that some folks never will understand.

So endeth the lecture.....


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Reiker said:


> Do you post pictures of yourself in those clothes on your dojo webite and claim to be an urban ninja though? Or (assuming you have a dojo website) do you wear your gi and say this is what budo taijutsu is but may just turn up to training in your casual cloths?


 
Nothing of the sort. You can think of me as a kind of antithesis to the fact that the Bujinkan attracts all those people with ponytails, black leather overcoats, Edward Scissorhands style haircuts, and various goth/electroclash mannerisms. :ultracool 
Heck, Fred Phelps has more soul in his record collection than those people.


----------



## Reiker

Nimravus said:


> Nothing of the sort. You can think of me as a kind of antithesis to the fact that the Bujinkan attracts all those people with ponytails, black leather overcoats, Edward Scissorhands style haircuts, and various goth/electroclash mannerisms. :ultracool
> Heck, Fred Phelps has more soul in his record collection than those people.



I didn't think you would from the general impression I have gathered lurking (which is of course a complete picture of your character... err well maybe not  ) I was just meaning that I don't care how you dress/project yourself in your life.   But how you project/advertise somebody else's art matters. 

For the record, I personally don't tend to go for the goth look either 

Reiker.

ps I had to google that guy, veerrry strange man.


----------



## Cryozombie

You know what... I'm not even gonna post the reply I wrote to all you people.

I just have one question for Don, Nim, or Reiker... where do I sign up for the "Bujinkan Dress Code" newsletter?​


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

The first rule of thumb is that you have to be at least a little bit uncomfortable. The second is that you need to have your look totally figured out before you walk into the store. That, and stay away from everything with the NY Yankees insignia or Dee Snider-like emblems. Rocawear, G-Unit and Sean John goes away too.


----------



## Reiker

Cryozombie said:


> You know what... I'm not even gonna post the reply I wrote to all you people.
> 
> I just have one question for Don, Nim, or Reiker... where do I sign up for the "Bujinkan Dress Code" newsletter?​



hhmmm I thought I was saying it's not about your personal sense of fashion?  Just about being appropriate for the situation.

At this point I'm just going to bow out  :asian: of the discussion for a bit.


----------



## wade

Hey Reiker, just wanted you to know that you didn't offend me. We still good, right?


----------



## Reiker

wade said:


> Hey Reiker, just wanted you to know that you didn't offend me. We still good, right?



 yeah of course. (and I'm glad I didn't offend)

It's just that this look like it's changing from what I think is a valid point Don made and I backed up, into a bit of a catwalk.

So I thought I'd stop disrupting Don's thread and wait for the next rant, I think I have enjoyed everything I have seen him raise so far  

Reiker.


----------



## wade

Yeah, me too. Moving on and bugging others....................


----------



## saru1968

Reiker said:


> yeah of course. (and I'm glad I didn't offend)
> 
> It's just that this look like it's changing from what I think is a valid point Don made and I backed up, into a bit of a catwalk.
> 
> So I thought I'd stop disrupting Don's thread and wait for the next rant, I think I have enjoyed everything I have seen him raise so far
> 
> Reiker.


 
The whole thread is a rant so don't worry about it, although depending on what area in the Uk i'd be careful about 'what one raises!'..lol

:whip1:


----------



## Don Roley

Cryozombie said:


> You know what... I'm not even gonna post the reply I wrote to all you people.
> 
> I just have one question for Don, Nim, or Reiker... where do I sign up for the "Bujinkan Dress Code" newsletter?​



Hey, I don't have probelems with folks dressing a little alternative. I just have problems with the rambo wanna-bes posturing on theirwebsites. If I tell people what art I do, I don't want their pictures popping up on a google search.

Mohawks, died hair, leather biker jackets.....heck I have dressed worse. It is the folks that dress in order to try to scare others that have the problems I think.


----------



## saru1968

Don Roley said:


> It is the folks that dress in order to try to scare others that have the problems I think.


 

Whats wrong with goths?


----------



## Don Roley

saru1968 said:


> Whats wrong with goths?



Well, I don't find goths scary. In fact, I am trying to lure a female one into a box to send to John.

Clowns...... now _*thats*_ scary. Their rubber noses....their large feet.....oh the horror, the horror!!!!!:xtrmshock


----------



## Reiker

Goth-in-a-box! now there's an idea.....


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

saru1968 said:


> Whats wrong with goths?


 
Am I supposed to be intimidated by a 30-year old with black fingernails and pointy ears?


----------



## Cryozombie

Reiker said:


> Goth-in-a-box! now there's an idea.....



THAT IS MY IDEA YOU CANT STEAL IT!.

And by the way, I am not goth, I am a rivethead.  Its less about black nail polish and vampire fangs, as it is about leather chains spikes cyberpunk and chrome... and it isn't about being scary, or intimidating anyone... goth really isnt either. 

It's more or less a filter, designed to find like minded individuals without having to go thru a lot of b.s.  The subcultures are fairly interchangable tho, and Ive dated goth chicks.  In fact I LIKE to date goth chicks.

Now, Emo kids?  *shudder* If i start seeing Emo kids on Buj websites, THEN I'll rant about fashion.


----------



## Bigshadow

Cryozombie said:


> THAT IS MY IDEA YOU CANT STEAL IT!.
> 
> And by the way, I am not goth, I am a rivethead.  Its less about black nail polish and vampire fangs, as it is about leather chains spikes cyberpunk and chrome... and it isn't about being scary, or intimidating anyone... goth really isnt either.
> 
> It's more or less a filter, designed to find like minded individuals without having to go thru a lot of b.s.  The subcultures are fairly interchangable tho, and Ive dated goth chicks.  In fact I LIKE to date goth chicks.
> 
> Now, Emo kids?  *shudder* If i start seeing Emo kids on Buj websites, THEN I'll rant about fashion.



Emo?  What the hell is that?  I had to go google that one.  All I can say is...  ok....?  Strange.


----------



## jks9199

Don Roley said:


> Well, I don't find goths scary. In fact, I am trying to lure a female one into a box to send to John.
> 
> Clowns...... now _*thats*_ scary. Their rubber noses....their large feet.....oh the horror, the horror!!!!!:xtrmshock


 
You want scary...  You oughta see Jugaloos!  These guys & gals are rabid fans of Insane Clown Posse... and basically look kinda like Goth clowns!

(Sorry... Couldn't find a convenient link, or I'd have included one.)


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Then you should see me in my Joker Brand outfits...

http://www.jokerbrand.com/


----------



## Rubber Tanto

jks9199 said:


> You want scary... You oughta see Jugaloos! These guys & gals are rabid fans of Insane Clown Posse... and basically look kinda like Goth clowns!
> 
> (Sorry... Couldn't find a convenient link, or I'd have included one.)


 
here...


----------



## Kreth

Rubber Tanto said:


> here...


Are they still putting out albums? Didn't their last one sell about 27 copies?


----------



## jks9199

Kreth said:


> Are they still putting out albums? Didn't their last one sell about 27 copies?


I can't speak for the band... but the fans are beginning to cause problems.  They have been found to be kind of violent on occasion and I've seen more than one advisory alert on them.  Granted... sometimes those are just kneejerk reactions to a "different" group, but they're from reasonably credible sources.


----------



## saru1968

Looks like a poor make up version of KISS


----------



## Don Roley

One thing that annoys me is people that do not take responsibility for their own training and advancement. I am talking about people that try to say that because of certain things, they are good or getting good. I do not know how common it is in other arts, but I think I see a lot of it in people in the Bujinkan.

Nothing can make you good if you do not take responsibility on the deepest level for your advancement. Some people may not have the same reseources or chances, but if they are determined to do the best they can with what they have they will get better than people with more than they.

And in the Bujinkan I see people that seem to think that because they come to Japan to train, then they automatically are better than they were. I can also say the same about the rank they were given or the amount of time they are in the art, etc.

Hey, I think everyone that can should come to Japan to train with the best teachers in the art. But the teachers can only lay out the information. It is up to us to learn the damn lessons. This does not happen with a lot of people that seem to think that just being in the same room with Hatsumi makes them skilled. There are guys going to dojos in America every week that seem to put more into actually gaining new insight than a lot of people I see here.

There is one guy that has been in Japan for a few years and makes a big point of that. But some of us were recently in the Mister Donut shop near Ayase when he came in and had to order coffee and suger _completly_ in English. He did not even speak enough Japanese to ask for suger in Japanese. 

Seriously, if someone is going to live in a country and not even try to learn the language, what hope is it that they will crack open the bones and such the marrow of _anything_ they do? As you can guess, people I know who have seen him in action all speak badly of his knowledge of taijutsu.

I can have the best teacher, but be a bad student. The worst students seem to be the ones that make the most of being a student of a skilled teacher. The others are too busy trying to steal the lessons of the teacher to be concerned with what others think.

And I am seeing more and more cases it seems of people that seem to think that just because they made it to Japan that they are assured that will become budo masters. Their attitude would not impact me if it were not for the fact that these bozos take up space at training.


----------



## saru1968

Don Roley said:


> ...that seem to think that just being in the same room with Hatsumi makes them skilled.


 

The fabled skill osmosis technique....:lol:


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

So I'm on my way home from work, and decide to take a peek at a beginners's session at a neighboring dojo. Just to give you an idea of the atmosphere, first consider this - at my primary dojo, we discuss things like work, the theme of the year, poker, nutrition, weight training, grappling, ryuha trivia, stretching, all of our injuries of various kinds and of course, quite a bit of Bujinkan behind-the-scenes gossip. In this dojo however, the most popular subjects are Lord of The Rings, alternative/underground comics, punk rock, manga/anime, the Japanese language, and Linux programming. Make of this what you will.

In any case, it doesn't take long for me to notice that all the prevailing TMA stereotypes are present. There's the wisecracking 20something girl wearing a PETA t-shirt who punches with her thumb inside her fist, the long-haired kids with glasses and Iron Maiden apparel, the huge but friendly guy nobody can get anything to work on, and of course the slightly perplexed white-collar guys with obvious Shotokan experience.
In charge of the whole thing is none other than the aforementioned back-bending third dan.

What draws my attention the most, however, are three training couples in the far right of the room. The first consists of two kids about fourteen or fifteen years of age, both obvious metalheads, who for some reason don't dare to perform techniques to the point of finish on each other. They're being demonstrated an omote gyaku, which elsewhere in the room leads to the uke falling or at least bending over (albeit voluntarily due to the pain), but these two seem to have some sort of unspoken agreement that they're not going to make each other hit the floor. They simply grab the arm, twist and lower it slightly, and then let go. This goes on without any of them being corrected. 

The second consists of two other kids maybe a couple of years older, one of which wears a white gi jacket and the other a HIM t-shirt. They're both obviously more interested in trying to score a hit or kick on each other than actually training. More than once they keep fooling around even when the instructor's demonstrating a new technique. Not one word is spoken to them by the instructor other than the advice to hit with the heel of the foot when training with focus pads. 

The third couple consists of two very poorly coordinated gentlemen in their late 30's/early 40's. Like the previous couple, on several occasions they don't stop talking or training even when the instructor is demonstrating a new technique, and even when they do, they're quick to make all kinds of changes and modifications they may think of (presumably because they both consider themselves to be intelligent, mature adults who enrolled in this class voluntarily and as such are free to follow instructions as they see fit because after all, they're paying for it).
Oddly enough, both of them seem to have the preconceived notion that they're supposed to punch in a karate fashion - they both rotate their fists and bring the other hand back to their hip when punching despite never having been told to do so.

Comment away.


----------



## saru1968

Don't go there again.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

What? That things are out of control? :mst:


----------



## Cryozombie

I didn't know that its ok to discuss Poker, but not Punk music... I'll keep that in mind next time we are listening to tunes with the instructor after training.  While I am not dressing Goth.

Sorry guys, the last bunch of posts in this discussion have gone beyond the realm of ranting about the bujinkan to lets all ridicule other people if they dont look, dress, and think like us.


----------



## Don Roley

Cryozombie said:


> Sorry guys, the last bunch of posts in this discussion have gone beyond the realm of ranting about the bujinkan to lets all ridicule other people if they dont look, dress, and think like us.



I have to agree. I dress plain vanilla. I try hard to not attract attention to myself. But I don't see the point in bringing up how people dress unless it has some sort of relevance to the discussion.

Speaking of which.......

When it comes to people's dress in the Bujinkan, isn't it common sense to not draw attention to your martial art background? Why advertise you do Bujinkan or any martial art by wearing a t-shirt that has kanji charecters or words like "ninjutsu" and the like?

Are people expecting others to be impressed that we do martial arts? Are they expecting that muggers will be scared off because of a Bujinkan t-shirt? Is there a chance that someone thinking about doing you harm will merely wait until you turn your back to hit you over the head?

Seriously, why call attention to the fact that we do martial arts at all in any way?


----------



## wade

Don, that is a very good point. Uh, I wear a hat that has NRA in big gold letters, does that count as tacky too? Or does it give them fair warning, cause I do carry pretty much all the time. I do know that it freaks the bleeding heart liberals out here in Portland a lot, makes my day!


----------



## Kreth

Ya know, the last time I was in Japan, at a class in Ayase, Hatsumi sensei asked me to punch him. I'm a big proponent of real training, so I tried to take his head off. Midway through my punch, he attacked my fingernail. It hurt so bad I bailed on my punch and dropped to my knees.
I had similar results with Shiraishi sensei, Noguchi sensei and Seno sensei.


----------



## wade

You wuss! See, that is why you are not a master. Always, and I do mean always, sacrifice some one else to take the punishment so that you can learn. That is why God gave us lower ranking belts, for sacrifice..........


----------



## Kreth

wade said:


> You wuss! See, that is why you are not a master. Always, and I do mean always, sacrifice some one else to take the punishment so that you can learn. That is why God gave us lower ranking belts, for sacrifice..........


I couldn't disagree more. You learn so much more by being on the receiving end of techniques.


----------



## wade

Kreth, you know I love ya man, right?


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Nimravus said:


> Make of this what you will.


 
Never said anything was ok or not ok to discuss. But some things are clichés because they're true.


----------



## Don Roley

Nimravus said:


> Never said anything was ok or not ok to discuss. But some things are clichés because they're true.



Off topic and not relevent to the point you were trying to make. This is not the first time you have snuck in something like this. Have you considered talking with a proffesional mental health worker about your problem with people who wear heavy metal t-shirts? Seriously, something is a little off with you on that matter. Whatever you do, please leave your fashion complaints out of this thread.


----------



## Bigshadow

Kreth said:


> You learn so much more by being on the receiving end of techniques.



I totally agree with that!


----------



## Bigshadow

Kreth said:


> Ya know, the last time I was in Japan, at a class in Ayase, Hatsumi sensei asked me to punch him. I'm a big proponent of real training, so I tried to take his head off. Midway through my punch, he attacked my fingernail. It hurt so bad I bailed on my punch and dropped to my knees.
> I had similar results with Shiraishi sensei, Noguchi sensei and Seno sensei.



Funny how that works!   I haven't trained there (yet), but I have been in similar situations as uke, (Jack and Ed come to mind immediately).


----------



## Bigshadow

*MODERATOR NOTE:

Please keep the conversation polite and respectful.

David Russ
MODERATOR
*


----------



## Cryozombie

Don Roley said:


> When it comes to people's dress in the Bujinkan, isn't it common sense to not draw attention to your martial art background? Why advertise you do Bujinkan or any martial art by wearing a t-shirt that has kanji charecters or words like "ninjutsu" and the like?



I know, I rarely wear mine unless I am going to or coming from class.  

That said, however... my tattoo gives a lot away, and I was... well, i wouldnt call it chastized, but spoken to about it by Papa-san when he saw it at dinner after a seminar a couple months ago.  

The only thing I have going for me, is that when people ask what it is I say "It says Free Tibet"


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

The thing is, the nature of my job is such that prejudice pays off. More often than not, stereotyping people is a fairly efficient tactic - most people with Slavic names I've arrested (including the one I handed over to the police about three hours ago) are chainsmoking nihilists who smell of vodka and like to grab mp3 players, Roma women hide everything from chainsaws to washing machines to fried chickens and bags full of batteries underneath their skirts, kids that move about in groups of four or five can't leave earphones well enough alone, and most people who wear urban camo pants and have long unkempt hair are winos with a passion for Scotch and silver wristwatches. So, in essence, I have the same problem as Mike Tyson - because my putting all of my negative traits to display leads to monetary rewards and encouragement, I can never truly become a better person.


----------



## Rubber Tanto

Kreth said:


> Ya know, the last time I was in Japan, at a class in Ayase, Hatsumi sensei asked me to punch him. I'm a big proponent of real training, so I tried to take his head off. Midway through my punch, he attacked my fingernail. It hurt so bad I bailed on my punch and dropped to my knees.
> I had similar results with Shiraishi sensei, Noguchi sensei and Seno sensei.


 
Have you ever been asked to throw a punch and instead you kicked?


----------



## Kreth

Rubber Tanto said:


> Have you ever been asked to throw a punch and instead you kicked?


Since the training was kata-based, no.


----------



## bencole

Rubber Tanto said:


> Have you ever been asked to throw a punch and instead you kicked?


 
I've seen it happen by accident to Hatsumi-sensei. He still flattened the idiot, then made him get up and do it correctly this time.  

"Accidents" such as punching with the wrong hand as the kata, kicking by mistake, coming in *WAY* too fast, are good for you--not in the sense of learning the kata, but in the sense of knowing whether your body automatically handles itself. If you have trained properly, things will come together naturally....

This is very different than "sparring" which creates anticipation and instills a sense of being "on guard." My rule is that when these accidents happen, let the body handle it naturally, even if it means that you do not actually do the official technique. So long as you are safe, everything is good. One cannot be captured by the technique.

Then go back to doing what you are supposed to do, and listening to the points that the teacher is emphasizing. A good teacher that is paying attention *MAY* actually build on what just happened to you, and address it. Hatsumi-sensei does this all the time!

In the end, you should go back to thinking about how the technique could be adjusted to reflect that "accidental" dynamic by yourself.

Just some thoughts.

-ben


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

It really makes me cringe nowadays when I see people in the Bujinkan give people a few quick pats on the hips in order to "control his potential hidden weapons". I imagine I'm not the only one here with experience of patting people down for weapons IRL - to say the least, it takes way more than that to make sure people aren't packing. Especially if he's an HIV-positive junkie with a carpet knife inside his underpants.


----------



## jks9199

bencole said:


> I've seen it happen by accident to Hatsumi-sensei. He still flattened the idiot, then made him get up and do it correctly this time.
> 
> "Accidents" such as punching with the wrong hand as the kata, kicking by mistake, coming in *WAY* too fast, are good for you--not in the sense of learning the kata, but in the sense of knowing whether your body automatically handles itself. If you have trained properly, things will come together naturally....
> 
> This is very different than "sparring" which creates anticipation and instills a sense of being "on guard." My rule is that when these accidents happen, let the body handle it naturally, even if it means that you do not actually do the official technique. So long as you are safe, everything is good. One cannot be captured by the technique.
> 
> Then go back to doing what you are supposed to do, and listening to the points that the teacher is emphasizing. A good teacher that is paying attention *MAY* actually build on what just happened to you, and address it. Hatsumi-sensei does this all the time!
> 
> In the end, you should go back to thinking about how the technique could be adjusted to reflect that "accidental" dynamic by yourself.
> 
> Just some thoughts.
> 
> -ben


It's one thing to throw a punch faster than the teacher wanted for demonstration purposes, or to misunderstand and throw the wrong punch or a kick...

And I ALWAYS want students to punch AT ME when I'm trying to demonstrate, not at some guy 2 feet to my left or right that nobody else can see...

I typically want the punch thrown with speed and intent, as well; I'll tell them what speed I want if I want it thrown slower, for example...

The first is an accident; they happen.  I'll roll with it.  (OK... I damn near cleaned one guy's clock after the third "accident" in a row when I was trying to show something...)  The others are required for me to demonstrate what I intend to show.

But if someone is deliberately throwing the wrong technique or otherwise screwing around as they're being honored to be used to demonstrate a technique...  That's beyond rude.  I always learn more in the "demonstratee" or uke role; I have an incredible view of the technique and how it's supposed to feel there.  I'd have very little patience with a student who decided to test me by purposely throwing a kick instead of punch, or something like that.  And , I suspect, that my lack of patience would probable end up with someone falling down...  That sort of stupidity is robbing all the students of the opportunity to learn!


----------



## jks9199

Don Roley said:


> One thing that annoys me is people that do not take responsibility for their own training and advancement. I am talking about people that try to say that because of certain things, they are good or getting good. I do not know how common it is in other arts, but I think I see a lot of it in people in the Bujinkan.



It's pretty common...  Lots of people (at least here in the US) seem to want someone else to make them "good" and somehow give them skill.  I repeatedly and pointedly tell my students that class is not enough practice...  And I can still tell who doesn't practice in between classes.  If they don't want to practice...  We'll just keep doing the same thing until they manage to learn it...


> Nothing can make you good if you do not take responsibility on the deepest level for your advancement. Some people may not have the same reseources or chances, but if they are determined to do the best they can with what they have they will get better than people with more than they.
> 
> And in the Bujinkan I see people that seem to think that because they come to Japan to train, then they automatically are better than they were. I can also say the same about the rank they were given or the amount of time they are in the art, etc.



I've seen similar things; people figure that since they've trained with So&So, they are automatically better than others.  I'm incredibly fortunate in who my instructor is; I don't think there are any who are better teachers, and damn few who are even his equal, with the exception of his teacher.  




> ...
> There is one guy that has been in Japan for a few years and makes a big point of that. But some of us were recently in the Mister Donut shop near Ayase when he came in and had to order coffee and suger _completly_ in English. He did not even speak enough Japanese to ask for suger in Japanese.
> 
> Seriously, if someone is going to live in a country and not even try to learn the language, what hope is it that they will crack open the bones and such the marrow of _anything_ they do? As you can guess, people I know who have seen him in action all speak badly of his knowledge of taijutsu.



Well...  You haven't been here in the States for a while, I guess.  Apparently, in light of how much I have to speak Spanish, people aren't supposed to bother to learn the language of the country where they live...  

Though I have found that I'm an incredibly gifted language instructor, at least at work!  I use a few magic words, and that guy who didn't speak a word of English suddenly is fluent...  (Those words?  Arrest; ticket; jail...  Amazing how many people are suddenly able to curse me in a language they didn't even know when I say those words...)




> I can have the best teacher, but be a bad student. The worst students seem to be the ones that make the most of being a student of a skilled teacher. The others are too busy trying to steal the lessons of the teacher to be concerned with what others think.
> 
> And I am seeing more and more cases it seems of people that seem to think that just because they made it to Japan that they are assured that will become budo masters. Their attitude would not impact me if it were not for the fact that these bozos take up space at training.



I like your phrasing above...  The "real" students are the ones that just plain come in, work out/train, and practice.  They ask questions like "what I am doing wrong?" or "I didn't understand..." not "why do we do this" or "why can't I..."  They follow directions; they don't assume that they know something until they've practiced it for years.  The others?  They figure they've done it once or twice; they've got it.  They preoccupy themselves with variations instead of learning the fundamental principle... or even worse, they ignore the lesson to do their own thing...


----------



## Kreth

jks9199 said:


> It's one thing to throw a punch faster than the teacher wanted for demonstration purposes, or to misunderstand and throw the wrong punch or a kick...
> 
> And I ALWAYS want students to punch AT ME when I'm trying to demonstrate, not at some guy 2 feet to my left or right that nobody else can see...


Yeah, this is what I was getting at with my previous post. I've seen some pretty weak attacks thrown at Hatsumi sensei or one of the Japanese shihan by supposedly highly ranked people. In fact, on the What is Martial Arts? video (or possibly Kobudo no Kihon, going from memory here) one of Hatsumi sensei's uke throws a punch at him that stops a foot short of reaching him. I wasn't trying to be disrespectful to sensei, I was throwing a real punch at his face. He doesn't need me (or any of his uke, for that matter) to play ragdoll.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Kreth said:


> Yeah, this is what I was getting at with my previous post. I've seen some pretty weak attacks thrown at Hatsumi sensei or one of the Japanese shihan by supposedly highly ranked people. In fact, on the What is Martial Arts? video (or possibly Kobudo no Kihon, going from memory here) one of Hatsumi sensei's uke throws a punch at him that stops a foot short of reaching him. I wasn't trying to be disrespectful to sensei, I was throwing a real punch at his face. He doesn't need me (or any of his uke, for that matter) to play ragdoll.


 
I'm not defending those who do this, but I can understand why they're doing it.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

bencole said:


> I think there are too many people who are too afraid to stand up to others who are being blatant idiots or dangerous to others. And I think part of our art is knowing when to step up and make the right call....
> 
> -ben


 
Sometimes it seems to me that with increased rank in the Bujinkan comes LESS responsibility instead of more. Anyone else know what I mean?


----------



## rutherford

I'd write a longer rant, but it'd be mostly swearing.  

*Don Roley
Account Closed

*Good bye, Don.  You'll be missed.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Nimravus said:


> I'm not defending those who do this, but I can understand why they're doing it.


 
Yes I think that is wrong as well but I also understand why they are doing it too.


----------



## LuzRD

rutherford said:


> I'd write a longer rant, but it'd be mostly swearing.
> 
> *Don Roley
> Account Closed
> 
> *Good bye, Don.  You'll be missed.



qft

Dangit!! well i hope Don and his family a safe and happy life. and a thank you for all that he has done (and will do) for the Bujinkan. :asian:


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

What's happening when you find yourself doing stuff nobody ever taught you?


----------



## DWeidman

Nimravus said:


> What's happening when you find yourself doing stuff nobody ever taught you?



Ri.

-Daniel


----------



## Shicomm

About 10 cams active during a class @ hombu ...
It was sad to see.... just sad...  :uhoh:


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Due to the insanely ridiculous slander that Dale Seago has been a victim of elsewhere recently, here's a little something of my own.

"Monday, someone died because he hurt me and I cut him without thinking.
Tuesday, an animal died because it was too dangerous to be free.
Wednesday, a thief died so everyone will respect private property.
Thursday, some politico died because his ideas were crazy and too contagious.
Friday, some rapist died because he left his victim wishing she was dead.
He had to die wishing he was alive.
Saturday, I killed a condemned man so no one would get blood on his hands.
Sunday, I rested.
Monday, six people jumped me so I cut them without thinking."


----------



## jks9199

Nimravus said:


> Due to the insanely ridiculous slander that Dale Seago has been a victim of elsewhere recently, here's a little something of my own.
> 
> "Monday, someone died because he hurt me and I cut him without thinking.
> Tuesday, an animal died because it was too dangerous to be free.
> Wednesday, a thief died so everyone will respect private property.
> Thursday, some politico died because his ideas were crazy and too contagious.
> Friday, some rapist died because he left his victim wishing she was dead.
> He had to die wishing he was alive.
> Saturday, I killed a condemned man so no one would get blood on his hands.
> Sunday, I rested.
> Monday, six people jumped me so I cut them without thinking."


 
Is Dale getting attacked for the Mythbuster's episode?  If so, I think it's totally undeserved.  HE did the best he could; he had to work with what they wanted to do, and he had no control over why they decided to do some of the sillier things in that episode.  (Why did they choose the water walking stuff, of all the ninja myths?  Why not something more dramatic and less silly, like vertical running or even invisibility?)  Dale did a great job, and I personally think that, overall, the episode wasn't bad.

(I guess you can consider this a mini-rant about people complaining about TV shows/movies without knowing anything about the process!)


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Dale did fine unfortunately the mythbuster's let everyone down a bit.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Nimravus said:


> Due to the insanely ridiculous slander that Dale Seago has been a victim of elsewhere recently, here's a little something of my own.
> 
> "Monday, someone died because he hurt me and I cut him without thinking.
> Tuesday, an animal died because it was too dangerous to be free.
> Wednesday, a thief died so everyone will respect private property.
> Thursday, some politico died because his ideas were crazy and too contagious.
> Friday, some rapist died because he left his victim wishing she was dead.
> He had to die wishing he was alive.
> Saturday, I killed a condemned man so no one would get blood on his hands.
> Sunday, I rested.
> Monday, six people jumped me so I cut them without thinking."


 
I now know what you are talking about and it is not the mythbuster's show.  I will let Dale come around and talk about it when he get's the chance rather than dragging it over here.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

To me this whole thing speaks volumes about how easily people allow themselves to be manipulated and upset by mere words, and how uneasy people feel about having their heads ****** with (which is *EXTREMELY* strange, given the Bujinkan "trademark" principle of kyojitsu tenkan).

So much for the grasp of Fudoshin.


----------



## jks9199

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I now know what you are talking about and it is not the mythbuster's show.  I will let Dale come around and talk about it when he get's the chance rather than dragging it over here.


I'm glad it's not about Mythbusters.

Too bad there seems to be succh significant disharmony...


----------



## Spence

Don Roley said:


> But you know, there are people that actually tell others that they are all you need to learn a Japanese art. I can point to people in Australia, Texas and other places to show you folks that say they don't need to learn anymore from Japan to teach their Japanese art and you don't need to do anything but go to train with them.
> 
> This art deserves better.


Is there anyone else that can point me in the direction of good & bad instructors in Australia now that Don is no longer on here.
It would be good to know who is worth training with & who is not & the more the better as I would like the opportunity to see as many different instructors as I can. 

Cheers


----------



## kouryuu

Spence said:


> Is there anyone else that can point me in the direction of good & bad instructors in Australia now that Don is no longer on here.
> It would be good to know who is worth training with & who is not & the more the better as I would like the opportunity to see as many different instructors as I can.
> 
> Cheers


 
Where in Australia do you live??, then we might be able to help you better.


----------



## Spence

Country N.S.W about 3 hrs from Sydney.
I regulary drive down to Victoria & Sydney so I am always looking for bujinkan dojos but would be willing to travel anywhere to train, it gives me an excuse to go places for holidays.

Cheers


----------



## kouryuu

http://www.bujinkanadelaide.org.au/ Ed Lomax in Adelaide

http://www.courageousheart.com.au/index.html Gillian Booth in Sydney

http://www.mudojo.graycastle.com/ Peter Meden in South Yarra??

http://www.komichidojo.com.au/index.html Peter White in Pymont, Sydney.

http://www.timbathurst.net/ Tim Bathurst in Melbourne

There's more but these guys are all interconnected and GOOD!:cheers: , they've all got links to others, also, 4 of these guys lived and trained in Japan for many years


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

As has been stated before...asking "what if" types of questions is what bitter, self-righteous 40-something beginners and cocky MPS (Male Pride Syndrome) victims do. What you should be asking is "if he is able to do x at this point, what have I missed/where have I gone wrong?" 
If your instructor is worth training with, he'll provide you with an answer and you'll learn more about taijutsu. If he is incapable of doing so, you've just learned more about the Bujinkan.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

I've just solved the issue of overcrowding in the Honbu - why don't we have all the people standing on the sidelines going "well, what Soke means is that..." and "you can pick up so much just by standing here and observing" head on home to Hatsumi's place and chat with him over a cup of tea or something. Then the rest of us will have plenty of space.


----------



## Dale Seago

kouryuu said:


> http://www.bujinkanadelaide.org.au/ Ed Lomax in Adelaide
> 
> http://www.courageousheart.com.au/index.html Gillian Booth in Sydney
> 
> http://www.mudojo.graycastle.com/ Peter Meden in South Yarra??
> 
> http://www.komichidojo.com.au/index.html Peter White in Pymont, Sydney.
> 
> http://www.timbathurst.net/ Tim Bathurst in Melbourne
> 
> There's more but these guys are all interconnected and GOOD!:cheers: , they've all got links to others, also, 4 of these guys lived and trained in Japan for many years



I don't know either of the Peters but I do know, Ed, Gillian, and Tim; and they are VERY good indeed!


----------



## kouryuu

Hi Dale, Peter Meden was in Japan when we were, he translated for Nagato Sensei and Oguri Sensei, about 5'10" and slim.


----------



## Dale Seago

kouryuu said:


> Hi Dale, Peter Meden was in Japan when we were, he translated for Nagato Sensei and Oguri Sensei, about 5'10" and slim.



Ah, I do know who he is then -- okay then, that's four out of the five I can personally endorse/recommend.


----------



## bencole

kouryuu said:


> http://www.bujinkanadelaide.org.au/ Ed Lomax in Adelaide
> 
> http://www.courageousheart.com.au/index.html Gillian Booth in Sydney
> 
> http://www.mudojo.graycastle.com/ Peter Meden in South Yarra??
> 
> http://www.komichidojo.com.au/index.html Peter White in Pymont, Sydney.
> 
> http://www.timbathurst.net/ Tim Bathurst in Melbourne


 
That's a good list, Norm. 

Don't forget Andrew Macdonald, Greg Alcorn, and Anthony Brien though.... All have several years in Japan as well. Duncan Mitchell, I believe, is currently living in Japan again, so when he gets back, he's another option, imo....

All in all, there are quite a few very skilled Aussies with significant ground time in Japan. 

Here is a pretty good list, imo.

http://www.komichidojo.com.au/dojos.html

Hope that helps!

-ben


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

I just can't stand this any more. The self-righteousness and hypocrisy displayed by proverbial Bujinkan "choir boys" online makes me sick.

During my 2004 Japan visit I was sitting on a train from Ayase to Kashiwa on my way back to the place I was staying, when a well-known 15th dan and one of the guys started having a conversation about above-average-sized parts of the female anatomy and the visual mediums in which they're put on display. After a few minutes, a small supposedly Japanese lady stands up and says in perfect English "interesting conversation, I'll see you guys tomorrow".

A few days later during a Honbu session, the Western 15th dan in charge (not the one just mentioned) not only picks me apart in front of the group of about 20 people, but makes very graphic references to his son's alleged sexual exploits with _mermaids._

Earlier this year, yet another 15th dan says the exact same thing I said related to another individual's lack of flexibility in front of a group of 23 people, whereas I said it in a group of maybe seven or eight people during a break in training, upon which it nearly landed me in some deep trouble.

Now let me say right away that I personally do not have any problem at all with what was actually said. My question is - whom are the people yapping on and on about "common sense" and "decency" and "benevolent/righteous hearts" trying to fool?


----------



## Dale Seago

Are you daring to suggest that 15th dans are just ordinary human beings?

Quick, someone call the Holy Inquisition, there's a heretic on the loose!!!


----------



## Carol

Dale Seago said:


> Are you daring to suggest that 15th dans are just ordinary human beings?
> 
> Quick, someone call the Holy Inquisition, there's a heretic on the loose!!!



I dunno...demonstrating sex with mermaids as a definition of flexibility....ain't no misunderstanding that.


----------



## Rich Parsons

Dale Seago said:


> Are you daring to suggest that 15th dans are just ordinary human beings?
> 
> Quick, someone call the Holy Inquisition, there's a heretic on the loose!!!



What he Said!


----------



## bencole

Nimravus said:


> I just can't stand this any more. The self-righteousness and hypocrisy displayed by proverbial Bujinkan "choir boys" online makes me sick.


 
What are the "online choir boys" and how do they relate to these three 15th dans?

-ben


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

bencole said:


> What are the "online choir boys"


 
They're the same type of people who take serious offense to the stuff Dale wrote elsewhere recently. And those who pose as the self-proclaimed guardians of morality and decency, frequently with subtle religious undercurrents.



bencole said:


> and how do they relate to these three 15th dans?
> 
> -ben


 
They probably don't, since they're apparently unaware of them having said these things.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Dale Seago said:


> Are you daring to suggest that 15th dans are just ordinary human beings?
> 
> Quick, someone call the Holy Inquisition, there's a heretic on the loose!!!


 
It's funny BTW that all the people handing out the cult/sect accusations towards the Bujinkan never seem to mention the fact that all sects are fundamentally about fornication.


----------



## bencole

Nimravus said:


> They're the same type of people who take serious offense to the stuff Dale wrote elsewhere recently. And those who pose as the self-proclaimed guardians of morality and decency, frequently with subtle religious undercurrents.


 
So this isn't a "martialtalk.com" specific rant, and more of what you've seen elsewhere?

-ben


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Pretty much.


----------



## Bigshadow

Dale, I missed it on Kutaki.  Just now I read the first page, your post and the others on Kutaki.  

Wow!  That is very creative!  I echo kutaki.Cuthalion's sentiment.  That was a very witty and crafty way of presenting the truth. 

I didn't bother to read much beyond the first page.  I drew my own conclusions and left it at that.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Just for clarification...the negative reactions to Dale's writing was just one example of all the sanctimonious BS you encounter nowadays.

Another telltale sign is whenever someone claims to be "shocked and disgusted".


----------



## Bujingodai

So if the poem displeased you, or you didn't care for the message you are sanctimonious?

Bujinkan Wonderteam Unite!!!

Well I didn't care too much for the poem myself and it did lead me to think it was perverted but I gather I don't have the true heart for budo or the mind to analylze it maturely.
Thank God for that.

Tell you what, and I have nothing against Dale. I have said many places his is a class act. It doesn't mean I have to like everything he says.

Post the poem in the General discussion again and garner a total reaction


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Bujingodai said:


> So if the poem displeased you, or you didn't care for the message you are sanctimonious?


 
Yes, if you were "shocked and disgusted" but have no qualms about pretending to hack people into pieces with samurai swords or using the word kunoichi.*







* Nine plus one/one more than nine. Let's just say it's got something to do with bodily openings.


----------



## jks9199

I found the piece interesting, myself.

But then, I've made similar statements to people directly.  In fact, I just explained some of the ideas that underlie the piece to a student a few weeks ago.


----------



## Bujingodai

I am well aware of the Kunoichi meaning.

But nope, can't say that I am on the level with your defence, a feverish one at that. Maybe I'm just not ready to understand it.

Teach me Obi Wan. Make me whimper while others watch in anticipation of having their turns with me.


----------



## Dale Seago

Nimravus said:


> Another telltale sign is whenever someone claims to be "shocked and disgusted".



I don't see that as necessarily being "sanctimonious", just that the point at which -- to use a Budo term -- "their mind stops" tells you a lot about their internal process, much the way varying interpretations of a Rorshach ink blot tell a psychiatrist a lot about the person he's dealing with.

If the prose-poem were actually about _*anything*_ to do with sex, then the statement that ". . .it may happen that someday these indignities that I perform with my own body upon hers will save her life, or the life of someone she protects" would make absolutely no sense whatsoever within the context of the poem. None of the detractors seem to have ever noticed that part, being too fixated on seeing _suki_ (weak points/vulnerabilities/openings) as orifices.

As they have long said in the Order of the Garter (the world's oldest national order of knighthood, dating to _circa_ 1348), "Honi soit qui mal y pense".


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Dale Seago said:


> If the prose-poem were actually about _*anything*_ to do with sex, then the statement that ". . .it may happen that someday these indignities that I perform with my own body upon hers will save her life, or the life of someone she protects" would make absolutely no sense whatsoever within the context of the poem.


 
I take it you haven't seen the anime "Ninja Scroll"? :ultracool


----------



## Dale Seago

Nimravus said:


> I take it you haven't seen the anime "Ninja Scroll"? :ultracool



As a matter of fact, I haven't. . .Should I put that on my to-do list for this weekend?


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Your call. :mst:


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Sometimes, the best way to deal with people who are uncooperative in training is to assume the mindset of not attempting to apologize for what you're doing. Anyone else know what I mean?


----------



## kaizasosei

i think i know what you mean.

rebeling aside, who is an authority to begin with??  how does one maintain integrity? how is sovereignity lost to the wrong path?

??

j


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

kaizasosei said:


> rebeling aside, who is an authority to begin with??


 
I'm going to answer this in a way that perhaps may seem a bit farfetched.
Something that occured to me recently is that the movements of Hatsumi, as relayed to me by those who have been to Japan recently, consist of a large quantity of baiting, feinting, distractions (mostly in the form of dakentai) and usage of broken rhythm, or as others have put it, no "technique" is utilized to it's fullest, only to "50 percent". 

Now, if I were one of those disillusioned veterans flirting with MMA concepts and yapping on about Budo Taijutsu being a "theoretical" art first and foremost, I would say that the only reason this works in training is because Hatsumi is only working with compliant partners. Fortunately, I'm spoiled with a whole bunch of teachers and thus consider myself capable of seeing beyond that. However, what I believe enables him to do the stuff he does is that special something that is difficult to put a name on, his particular way of totally dominating people mentally and physically by the usage of the space around him and the intentions of all the people involved. 

On a rudimentary level, this could perhaps be described as an extension of him being aware of his capability to more than back up what he says (similar to the way police de-escalate potentially violent situations due to their confidence in their assets, i.e. guns, batons, OC spray etc.), but frankly I'm not sure how to best describe it. What I do know however, is that someone who lacks this ability to dominate other people will probably not be successful in trying to mimic Hatsumi's movements but rather provoke further resistance from his uke. It's taken decades of hard work for Hatsumi to get where he's at.

Someone who acknowledges this fact is someone I consider an authority. That, and the willingness to admit that people in the Bujinkan generally could be better at smacking each other up.



kaizasosei said:


> how does one maintain integrity?


 
Lots of things that can be done...don't laugh at jokes you don't find funny just to be polite, leave the room when someone high up insinuates that your posture indicates you were gang-raped by ten African men yesterday etc...



kaizasosei said:


> how is sovereignity lost to the wrong path?


 
It's pretty simple actually. Although it is pretty cool to have a large crew of hangarounds around you, history has shown that as soon as you manage to amass a whole bunch of followers, your mind tends to snap. Just look at Elvis, Axl Rose, Jacko, Mike Tyson, P Diddy, Charles Manson, the sect leader of your choosing etc...
I mean, for women it's normal to hang out in large groups and go to the bathroom together and stuff like that, but as a guy all you're thinking is "holy crap, are ALL these people on MY payroll!?!?"


----------



## Dale Seago

Nimravus said:


> Just for clarification...the negative reactions to Dale's writing was just one example of all the sanctimonious BS you encounter nowadays.
> 
> Another telltale sign is whenever someone claims to be "shocked and disgusted".



Well, I've had some further thoughts about it myself after examining it from more of a "big picture" perspective:

http://www.kutaki.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=3691&forum=16


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

My opinion is that a person who starts to teach prematurely is better fodder for the Bujinkan bashers than anything anyone has ever said or written.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

The notion of "training as if you were a boxer" came up elsewhere recently.

For Bujinkan purposes, I don't buy it. Not for one second.

First off, there's the issue regarding consistency - figuring out what you need to work on and keeping at it. However, I really don't think that the vast majority of Bujinkan practitioners who aren't themselves instructors have that much of a say in regards to what they're currently practicing, and I'm at the same time irritated and extremely grateful that is the case. Irritated on behalf of the people who can think for themselves and don't want weeks or months to go by before they're allowed to use the pads again, and grateful because that is the only reason to discover how everything in the Bujinkan is connected with other areas of study.

Second, there's the instructor. I know of people who have gained quite a bit of skill training with instructors who are excellent practitioners themselves, but whose teaching methods leave a lot to be desired. Granted, most of these people are primarily skilled in areas of timing, flow and distance, but can't do school kata, hit people hard enough to move them or parry a bo swing worth a damn, but for purposes of interacting with other practitioners at seminars and in Japan and such, they're probably able to pass for pretty skilled practitioners - at least at first glance. I think I'll leave it at that before I drift further away from the issue at hand.

Third, there's the issue of fitness. Well, sure, but again, I'd wager most people couldn't or wouldn't _demand_ that from their instructor. Of course, this is something that you also have to take responsibility for yourself, but a lot of people need to hear that from their instructor to do so (I know, I was one of them).

Fourth, there's the issue of self-training. It goes without saying that this carries with it an inherent risk of ingraining bad habits. I ALWAYS keep in my mind that whenever I don't understand something, or am able (or unable:ultracool) to do something there's a very real possibility of it having to do with my being unaware of something. This is true in regards to basic locks, throws and school kata as well - to state that they're really not that hard is basically not true in my opinion (well okay, they're technically easy, it's your mind that makes them difficult, more on that in a sec). In order to manipulate and control a human being who refuses to stand still and give up, there is way too much that factors into the equation for me to be able to consistently practice any physical movements that enable me to make them work. At the risk of repeating myself, I can't demand that my instructor allows me to practice the same exact technique over and over for a very long period of time - and I have even less of a possibility to ask the person(s) I'm training with to behave exactly the same every time. For me to get better at this, I need to have a few underlying principles explained to me beforehand, such as the fact that to throw or sweep a person I need to isolate his lower body from his upper body, and similar principles (yes, that's right, I am suggesting the memorization of certain formulas that are needed for things to work. It's worked wonders for me at least.).

What further complicates the issue is that these days there is a common tendency in the Bujinkan to move away from the old behavioristic method of practicing over and over until you have it down, and instead utilize what I would describe as a version of the humanist approach to psychology (feeeee-HEEEEEEEEEEling, wo wo wo...etc). And this is nine years of experience talking, how is someone who recently started training supposed to know this? 

Sixth, on being loose, relaxed and responsive. Well, I'd say that is one of the things (along with bend your knees, move your feet, use kamae etc etc etc.) you can say to a beginner a thousand times, and there's no guarantee he's going to truly realize what it is you mean until he's gained more experience. A very rough generalization is that there are three different people who begin practicing Budo Taijutsu and martial arts in general - those who are too soft or "wimpy" which I considered myself to be initially, those who are too hard, macho, aggressive or whatever you want to call it, and those who know exactly how to combine hard and soft in training. You can tell the big and strong guy to loosen up and not take himself so seriously, and you can tell the pencil-necked stereotypical D&D nerd to hit with intent as much as you want - 99.9 percent of the time they're going to have to attain understanding from within, which takes time and hard work.

Having said that, since nobody really listens to what's said online anyway:ultracool there are also those who have their minds so firmly made up that both hardening and freeing their minds is something that's way beyond their rationale. And you can say what you want, but in my experience these people mainly consist of guys in their late thirties or early fourties who have just started training, or teen-aged or 20-something guys who already practiced another style before training in Budo Taijutsu and who has kept on training in that style. I think it's pretty obvious what this says about my views on practicing other styles as a way of developing attributes which will aid you in your Budo Taijutsu training.

In conclusion, while the concepts laid forth are sound in and of themselves, I don't think they're all that feasible in reality without a few modifications.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Amazingly enough, I've finally stumbled upon a situation in which all the technical skill in the world wouldn't have been enough - and managed to come out on top.

It's just before noon and I'm sitting behind the surveillance cameras in an electronics store, when all of the sudden I spot this little kid (eleven years of age as I found out later) grabbing an mp3 player, walking behind a couple of shelves, and stuffing the thing inside his pants. He and his friend then proceed to run out of the store and further into the mall, at which point I run out of the room and follow them to the library where the kid picks up the goods. I walk up to him showing my badge, after which I grab his right sleeve with one hand and the mp3 player with the other. Of course, he says that he hasn't done anything and that he's bought the thing, at which point I tell him to save it because we have it all on camera.

When we reach the bottom of the approximately 30/40 feet long stairs leading up to the store he starts to panic and screams that he hasn't done anything while trying to free himself. Not long after that, a whole bunch of people gather around trying to release my grip on him saying that I have no right to do that and that I'm breaking his arm and all sorts of things.

Now, the usage of force in my jurisdiction works pretty much like this - as long as someone is merely trying to get away and not physically attacking me, I'm not allowed to use anything but controlling holds. As soon as he starts attacking me, however, I'm allowed to hit, but even then it has to be proportionate in regards to the situation. This is also when I'm allowed to use my baton (notice that this is kind of like the difference between fighting and self defense - in reverse :ultracool). My first impulse when encountering resistance was of course to flow into a controlling hold on the kid's arm and wrist. After that, common sense kicks in, and I realize that if I do that I'm both very likely to break something on him, not to mention the potentially violent reaction that may produce from the onlookers. Therefore, I'm pretty much limited to holding on to him with all the force I can muster. Had I been able to use both my arms I might even have been able to drag him up the stairs, but let's not forget I had an mp3 player I couldn't afford to drop.

All the while, people are trying to drag the kid away from me, I don't know if they thought I was trying to rob him or whatever. One guy walks up to me and asks if I'm a cop, to which I respond that I'm an undercover security guard. He's apparently the only one out of all the sheeple with half a brain, because after hearing that he immediately backs away. Somehow I manage to produce my cell phone and call for backup from my uniformed colleagues (of a rivalling company, I might add). For a few seconds, there's nothing for me to do but try to hold on to prevent the kid escaping.

As my insanely good fortune would have it, however, two female undercover police officers appear seemingly from out of nowhere and grab hold of both the kid and the mp3 player, upon which I immediately pull out my badge and show it to the people around me before we start walking up toward the store again. Right at this moment, the uniformed guards appear as well, and while I'm extremely tempted to enlist their help in arresting some of the people in the mob for assaulting a public servant (yes, I have the right to do that), a voice in the back of my head tells me that enough time has passed for someone to pull out his cell phone camera and start filming the whole incident. Therefore, I just yell at them from a distance that the situation is under control and that I'll explain it all later. Understandably, they were a bit PO-ed at me for having called them for what they perceived as no reason, especially as I called upon them to arrest a seven foot tall Russian with large tattoos the day before, at which nothing happened.

So what have I learned from this? To begin with, I failed to adher to an important rule - to keep talking with the suspect as you're leading him back into the room. Furthermore, my flashing my badge for all around to see would probably have saved me quite a bit of hassle - except I had a panicked eleven year old to hang on to in one hand, and the stolen loot in the other. Any attempt on my part to use any type of force on either the kid or the people trying to free him would have gotten me into more trouble, very likely up the point of me losing my job.

Oh, and then there's of course the fact that the behaviour of the onlookers says a lot about the nature of sheeples in general. These are the people we assume to be sensible, reasonable adults with the ability to think by themselves and work together to create a better society with their combined knowledge, experience and understanding.

Heh.


----------



## shesulsa

Good post.  I wish you'd post it again in the General Self-Defense section as it's applicable to other LEOs and to anyone who uses control tactics.

I learned something there as well.  In general, if I see an adult carting a kid along in the mall or a store, I have - for the most part - assumed it was an unruly child or a theft attempt busted.  Good call for the one half-brained person to ask who you were, though it may have been smart for him to ask you to produce your badge.

Hmmm.

So in retrospect, you would have maintained a conversation with the boy during the walk and flashed the badge, but you stated both hands were occupied - do you have a remedy for that?  An MP3 player can fit in your pocket, but other things might not.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

shesulsa said:


> So in retrospect, you would have maintained a conversation with the boy during the walk and flashed the badge, but you stated both hands were occupied - do you have a remedy for that?


 
If I had kept talking to him, there'd be less of a chance of him freaking out. What I usually tell people is that "we can either solve this the easy way if you just give me the stuff and follow me, or we're going to have to call the police right here right now". This way, people think that if they'll do as I say I won't call the police, but all I've really said is that I won't call the police in view of the public. That way, the perps are at least inside your room when they freak out.



shesulsa said:


> An MP3 player can fit in your pocket, but other things might not.


 
That particular package was too large to fit into a pocket.


----------



## shesulsa

Do you have any way to free up your other hand?


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Some of my colleagues carry bags over their shoulders for this exact purpose. Had this been any other time of the year I might have been able to hide the stuff inside my jacket, but during this incident I wore a shirt and t-shirt.


----------



## shesulsa

Well, I just want to congratulate you for coming out on top here; it sounds as though it definitely could have gotten much nastier than it did.


----------



## Rich Parsons

Nimravus said:


> Amazingly enough, I've finally stumbled upon a situation in which all the technical skill in the world wouldn't have been enough - and managed to come out on top.
> 
> It's just before noon and I'm sitting behind the surveillance cameras in an electronics store, when all of the sudden I spot this little kid (eleven years of age as I found out later) grabbing an mp3 player, walking behind a couple of shelves, and stuffing the thing inside his pants. He and his friend then proceed to run out of the store and further into the mall, at which point I run out of the room and follow them to the library where the kid picks up the goods. I walk up to him showing my badge, after which I grab his right sleeve with one hand and the mp3 player with the other. Of course, he says that he hasn't done anything and that he's bought the thing, at which point I tell him to save it because we have it all on camera.
> 
> When we reach the bottom of the approximately 30/40 feet long stairs leading up to the store he starts to panic and screams that he hasn't done anything while trying to free himself. Not long after that, a whole bunch of people gather around trying to release my grip on him saying that I have no right to do that and that I'm breaking his arm and all sorts of things.
> 
> Now, the usage of force in my jurisdiction works pretty much like this - as long as someone is merely trying to get away and not physically attacking me, I'm not allowed to use anything but controlling holds. As soon as he starts attacking me, however, I'm allowed to hit, but even then it has to be proportionate in regards to the situation. This is also when I'm allowed to use my baton (notice that this is kind of like the difference between fighting and self defense - in reverse :ultracool). My first impulse when encountering resistance was of course to flow into a controlling hold on the kid's arm and wrist. After that, common sense kicks in, and I realize that if I do that I'm both very likely to break something on him, not to mention the potentially violent reaction that may produce from the onlookers. Therefore, I'm pretty much limited to holding on to him with all the force I can muster. Had I been able to use both my arms I might even have been able to drag him up the stairs, but let's not forget I had an mp3 player I couldn't afford to drop.
> 
> All the while, people are trying to drag the kid away from me, I don't know if they thought I was trying to rob him or whatever. One guy walks up to me and asks if I'm a cop, to which I respond that I'm an undercover security guard. He's apparently the only one out of all the sheeple with half a brain, because after hearing that he immediately backs away. Somehow I manage to produce my cell phone and call for backup from my uniformed colleagues (of a rivalling company, I might add). For a few seconds, there's nothing for me to do but try to hold on to prevent the kid escaping.
> 
> As my insanely good fortune would have it, however, two female undercover police officers appear seemingly from out of nowhere and grab hold of both the kid and the mp3 player, upon which I immediately pull out my badge and show it to the people around me before we start walking up toward the store again. Right at this moment, the uniformed guards appear as well, and while I'm extremely tempted to enlist their help in arresting some of the people in the mob for assaulting a public servant (yes, I have the right to do that), a voice in the back of my head tells me that enough time has passed for someone to pull out his cell phone camera and start filming the whole incident. Therefore, I just yell at them from a distance that the situation is under control and that I'll explain it all later. Understandably, they were a bit PO-ed at me for having called them for what they perceived as no reason, especially as I called upon them to arrest a seven foot tall Russian with large tattoos the day before, at which nothing happened.
> 
> So what have I learned from this? To begin with, I failed to adher to an important rule - to keep talking with the suspect as you're leading him back into the room. Furthermore, my flashing my badge for all around to see would probably have saved me quite a bit of hassle - except I had a panicked eleven year old to hang on to in one hand, and the stolen loot in the other. Any attempt on my part to use any type of force on either the kid or the people trying to free him would have gotten me into more trouble, very likely up the point of me losing my job.
> 
> Oh, and then there's of course the fact that the behaviour of the onlookers says a lot about the nature of sheeples in general. These are the people we assume to be sensible, reasonable adults with the ability to think by themselves and work together to create a better society with their combined knowledge, experience and understanding.
> 
> Heh.


 
While working at a location the owner caught a teenage breaking into and then reaching in to grab cash/coins from an arcade game. The owner saw him and told him to stop. The kid did not listen and continued with his crime. The owner grabbed him and then proceeded to take him to the office to call for the police. The police did not respond for over an hour. Not life threatening issue so they waited until a two man unit was available. The owner locked the kid into the office where he could not leave. 

The police talked to the owner. 

They talked to the kid.

They looked at the damage to the machine.

They took the kid home and took kid knapping charges from the parents against the owner for holding their son against his will. 

Both cases ended up getting dropped but as it turned out the owner had to spend more money in legal fees then he would have if he just let the kid walk away with the money.

The problem with this is that the owner then had issues with calling the police and preferred to handle things his own way.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Under my jurisdiction, I have the lawful authority to detain people for up to six hours while waiting for the police. As long as I've seen the crime being committed with my own eyes - no sweat.

BTW, that mp3 player cost more than a hundred dollars.


----------



## Rich Parsons

Nimravus said:


> Under my jurisdiction, I have the lawful authority to detain people for up to six hours while waiting for the police. As long as I've seen the crime being committed with my own eyes - no sweat.
> 
> BTW, that mp3 player cost more than a hundred dollars.



More than $100 is usually a felony. That changes things as well. 

I was not arguing with you, only stating that someone who knows what they can do and are allowed to do, should execute such actions. Otherwise they might end up in court for legal reasons.


----------



## jks9199

Rich Parsons said:


> More than $100 is usually a felony. That changes things as well.
> 
> I was not arguing with you, only stating that someone who knows what they can do and are allowed to do, should execute such actions. Otherwise they might end up in court for legal reasons.


Dangerous assumption, there...

The dollar value for felony vs. misdemeanor larceny is wildly variable.  In VA, it's $200, but I know that in other states it's as high as $500 (and maybe more), and I recall hearing as low as $50.  There's no rhyme or reason.

It sounds like Nimravus knows his job.  I'd encourage him to wear some sort of visible ID, or put his badge on a chain -- but also to be careful.  His brief summary hear almost could be interpreted as being impersonation in VA.  (I arrested a guard for impersonation and domestic assault once; when someone tried to intervene in the struggle between him and his daughter, he showed his badge trying to keep the good Samaritan from calling us...)


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

jks9199 said:


> I'd encourage him to wear some sort of visible ID, or put his badge on a chain --


 
It's actually a card, and not really a badge per se.

In any case, the two plain clothes cops who showed up seemed to understand exactly what was going on, which is more than can be said about anyone else present at the scene.


----------



## jks9199

Nimravus said:


> It's actually a card, and not really a badge per se.
> 
> In any case, the two plain clothes cops who showed up seemed to understand exactly what was going on, which is more than can be said about anyone else present at the scene.


You were lucky, and I'd half suspect that they were on a mall detail of some sort.  And I wasn't trying to imply you did anything wrong; just warning of a potential pitfall.  

I'm currently in a plainclothes assignment.  Working plainclothes law enforcement or security has certain inherent risks; people don't know who you are like they do if you're in uniform.  If I'm dealing with someone, and a uniformed cop rolls up on us, I expect to be proned out until my ID is sorted out and confirmed.  The simple rule is do what the folks in uniform say!


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

jks9199 said:


> You were lucky, and I'd half suspect that they were on a mall detail of some sort. And I wasn't trying to imply you did anything wrong; just warning of a potential pitfall.
> 
> I'm currently in a plainclothes assignment. Working plainclothes law enforcement or security has certain inherent risks; people don't know who you are like they do if you're in uniform. If I'm dealing with someone, and a uniformed cop rolls up on us, I expect to be proned out until my ID is sorted out and confirmed. The simple rule is do what the folks in uniform say!


 
I have been in this field and I must say that you need to make sure you have ID to present and or *visible* when necessary. (definately the way to go in my book)  Definately this can alleviate some problems.  Listen to jks9199 as he has some really sound advice here.

On the side though I am glad everything worked out.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

I've been thinking about whether or not I should have tossed the mp3 player up the stairs so that I'd at least have one hand free. As long as the thief's in custody, the store won't be losing any money from the ordeal, but given the fact that I don't know if the cameras I saw the whole thing through were recording at the time that might have compromised the only available evidence.

Again, the cops knew right away what was going on, and as soon as they intervened I had the opportunity to show my ID to everyone around. And no, they weren't even on duty - they had just stopped for lunch at a nearby café.


----------



## Rich Parsons

jks9199 said:


> Dangerous assumption, there...
> 
> The dollar value for felony vs. misdemeanor larceny is wildly variable. In VA, it's $200, but I know that in other states it's as high as $500 (and maybe more), and I recall hearing as low as $50. There's no rhyme or reason.
> 
> It sounds like Nimravus knows his job. I'd encourage him to wear some sort of visible ID, or put his badge on a chain -- but also to be careful. His brief summary hear almost could be interpreted as being impersonation in VA. (I arrested a guard for impersonation and domestic assault once; when someone tried to intervene in the struggle between him and his daughter, he showed his badge trying to keep the good Samaritan from calling us...)




 I see someone gets my points about assumptions. 

It is bad for me to assume that a dollar value is associated with a felony without checking the local laws.

It is bad for others to assume this guy was not kidnapping, for if he was a kidnapper everyone would be upset.

It is bad for people to assume that he is a kidnapper for he was doing his job within authority.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Someone else whom I relayed the events to asked whether or not the reactions of the onlookers would have been different had I been blonde and/or Caucasian. While my old Brazilian passport from the 80's describes me as "branco", I'm probably not whom most people would look at and think "white".


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

New rant, new subject...

What I'm about to say here might be seen as a slam against people of Western origin who have taken up residence in Japan, I apologize for that in advance. Those of you who know your true worth probably also realize that this is not intended towards you.

There's this certain individual in the Bujinkan who left his native country to come and live in Japan somewhere around the early 90's, and who has recently relocated back to the Western hemisphere. His reputation as one of the best the Bujinkan has to offer stretches all around the world, and though I've never trained with him personally (I did however meet him several times in Japan), his teachings heavily influenced the training at my dojo the last year and a half by way of my instructors, particularly in the areas of spear techniques and Kukishinden dakentaijutsu. Admittedly, I've never seen him in action with my own eyes, but if my current teacher says that he's the freakin' man, then as far as I'm concerned he's the freakin' man.

There are two aspects of this individual's persona that continue to fascinate me. 
To begin with, it's the ongoing usage of what I as well as others have referred to as a behavioristic approach to training - that is, you work and train hard at something until you *REALLY* have it down. If for instance you're aiming to improve your skills with the jo, you stand there for hours going through all the hits, thrusts, swings and positions. You don't get creative, you don't go off speaking in tongues, you simply keep going in the most literal sense of the word.
This has, according to people who've trained with him, manifested itself in ways that IMO are far too seldomly seen in the Bujinkan - as in the brilliant phrasing: "all right people, drop your swords. None of you can do this yet."

Second, it's what has been relayed to me as one of his personal motivations for leaving Japan. Apparently, he found himself unable to endure the constant physical and mental domination he was subjected to by Hatsumi. Without having even the slightest resemblance of a personal relationship to him myself, after merely having been in the same room as him I can tell that he has somewhat of a powerful and imposing aura around him (this is absolutely not intended as an insult or a form of criticism, just a reflection on his obviously very unusual personality), which I imagine can have a profound effect on the people living around him on a daily basis.

Now, some might try to infer that this unability to cope with Hatsumi's constant presence primarily has to do with the mental constitution of the person in question. And sure, that is a valid standpoint, but I dare you to say it to his face. From my limited perspective, however, it only adds to my perception of him as a sensible and reasonable individual.
This stands in a pretty stark contrast to all the people constantly trying to emulate Hatsumi's movements as well as his method of speech.

What I think this says about a lot of the "Hatsumi hangarounds", for lack of better and more sophisticated wording, is probably best left unsaid.


----------



## bencole

Nim,

I'm sorry, but I not quite sure what the takeaway of this "rant" was supposed to be.

So far, I got, "Someone your teacher thinks is good practices things over and over again. One of the reasons this person is leaving Japan is because Hatsumi-sensei can be a dominating presence. This implies something about those who haven't left Japan."

Is this correct?

-ben


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

bencole said:


> So far, I got, "Someone your teacher thinks is good practices things over and over again.


 
I'm pretty sure you think he's good too, but yes.



bencole said:


> One of the reasons this person is leaving Japan is because Hatsumi-sensei can be a dominating presence. This implies something about those who haven't left Japan."
> 
> Is this correct?


 
This implies something about a certain type of people, yes.


----------



## bencole

Nimravus said:


> I'm pretty sure you think he's good too, but yes.


 
Really? Curious.... 

I don't think most people are very good. 



			
				Nimravus said:
			
		

> This implies something about a certain type of people, yes.


 
Or that Japan itself demands a certain type of person....

You say this individual went to Japan in the early 1990s. That's over 10 years in Japan!!!  To be honest, ten years in Japan can turn anyone batty!  It takes a special temperment to live there looooooong term like that.

Moreover, unless you plan to stay there forever or teach Budo the rest of your life, if you actually want to get a job in your home country, you need to go home before the age of 40.  It's kinda hard to find a job if you are 40 years old and have *NO* transferrable skills!   (Note: Employees at Japanese firms become experts at navigating the complexities of their own firm, but that's not helpful if one hopes to work at another firm).

Anyways, it takes a special type of person to live in Japan for ten years.  It takes an even more special type of person to settle there permanently. 

Moving on only seems natural to me.... 

-ben


----------



## shesulsa

This discussion sounds to me as though it's more a behavioral/personality comment than anything.

I'm not sure that I know to whom you are referring, however sometimes I think people need breaks from each other no matter the relationship.  Sometimes really, really long breaks ... with a lot of distance. 

And I cannot know the circumstances behind the residence of this individual nor all of the considerations one may normally need to weigh (family, employment, etcetera). 

Hmm.

I assume you are expressing your disappointment that this particular individual could or would not continue his tenure at the Bujinkan Dojo in Japan and are lamenting that though this person be a quality traditional instructor, his return to the West signifies his inadequacy.

Is that a correct assumption?


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

bencole said:


> Really? Curious....
> 
> I don't think most people are very good.


 
Join the club. %-}


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

shesulsa said:


> And I cannot know the circumstances behind the residence of this individual nor all of the considerations one may normally need to weigh (family, employment, etcetera).


 
It should be noted that family factored into the equation as well, at least that's what I've been told. 



shesulsa said:


> I assume you are expressing your disappointment that this particular individual could or would not continue his tenure at the Bujinkan Dojo in Japan and are lamenting that though this person be a quality traditional instructor, his return to the West signifies his inadequacy.
> Is that a correct assumption?



No. For some reason it seems as if you missed what I wrote earlier:



Nimravus said:


> Now, some might try to infer that this unability to cope with Hatsumi's constant presence primarily has to do with the mental constitution of the person in question. And sure, that is a valid standpoint, but I dare you to say it to his face. *From my limited perspective, however, it only adds to my perception of him as a sensible and reasonable individual.*
> This stands in a pretty stark contrast to all the people constantly trying to emulate Hatsumi's movements as well as his method of speech.


----------



## shesulsa

So, then ... you are lamenting the loss of his presence, perhaps?


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

I'm not dissatisfied with anything he's done.


----------



## Bigshadow

OKAYYY...  I don't really see a rant jumping out and throwing shuriken at me.   Was this a rant or an expression of disappointment?


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

The difference being...?


----------



## Bigshadow

Nimravus said:


> The difference being...?



The feeling?  :idunno:


----------



## shesulsa

I'm not a ninjutsu student, so perhaps I should bow out of the discussion ... I was just curious for clarification if you were disappointed that this person was leaving because they're an asset, disappointed because this person who is an asset and leaving had difficulty, in your opinion, maintaining tutelage from Hatsumi Sensei, if you may be disappointed that Hatsumi's demeanor is such that it might drive some good people away ... ????

But I digress.  I will leave the convo.  Thanks for your tolerance.


----------



## bencole

shesulsa said:


> I was just curious for clarification if you were disappointed that this person was leaving because they're an asset, disappointed because this person who is an asset and leaving had difficulty, in your opinion, maintaining tutelage from Hatsumi Sensei, if you may be disappointed that Hatsumi's demeanor is such that it might drive some good people away ...


 
Away from what? Japan? Or the Bujinkan?

I did not get the feeling that this person was leaving the Bujinkan, just moving back to his home country from Japan. 

That's why I don't understand what precisely the "rant" is.... :mst:

-ben


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Which part is it that I'm unable to get across?

For the last time - I don't have ANY problem with ANYTHING the individual in question has done. 



Nimravus said:


> This stands in a pretty stark contrast to all the people constantly trying to emulate Hatsumi's movements as well as his method of speech.
> What I think this says about a lot of the "Hatsumi hangarounds", for lack of better and more sophisticated wording, is probably best left unsaid.


----------



## Bujingodai

I am a little bit wondering what the rant if anything is about and if not why was it posted but if it had to do with those who try and copy Hatsumi and try to use his quotes as if it was their own, I understand that.

Use your own quotes, they are just as important. People put too much God stamina in the man.


----------



## Bigshadow

Speaking of Hatsumi, it is my opinion that he is the one we all should be aspiring to achieve his level of skill.  In my opinion, one way to get there is to try and emulate him, with regard to one's training.  I am not talking about mimicking for the sake of looking like him, I meaning emulating him to try and gain the feeling and understand of the principles he is teaching.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

I brought up the individual in question because his approach is the opposite of the people I *AM* dissatisfied with/irritated at.


----------



## bencole

Nimravus said:


> I brought up the individual in question because his approach is the opposite of the people I *AM* dissatisfied with/irritated at.


 
So you are dissatisfied with people who don't leave Japan frustrated by a supposedly overpowering senior?

I still don't get it, Nim....

The way it was written, your post actually sounds like a criticism of Hatsumi-sensei. After all, he's the supposedly overbearing personality that is driving this loving martial artist from Japan.... Even though it is Hatsumi-sensei's art that this guy loves, trains and teaches. :shake head:

As someone who has been there and done that, I have doubts whether anyone in Japan now has a relationship with Soke that causes that much stress. All contact is essentially in the dojo setting. No foreigner is regularly the uke, and no one is getting reprimanded and belittled in front of others. And so on....

The idea that there is someone subjected to "constant physical and mental domination" by Hatsumi-sensei seems a bit fantastical to me (and others with whom I've spoken about this post). I certainly never saw any such thing during all my years of training with Soke. There is certainly a chance that the environment has changed since I left (in 2000), but I doubt it given my conversations with those still in Japan.

I *DO* think your post raises a couple of interesting points though. 

First, should people do what Soke tells them they should do, or should people do what they themselves think is best despite what Soke says?

Some would argue the former is better during your time in Japan, because that is the only time that you have to try to figure out what the heck Soke is doing. Picking up the essence of what Soke is teaching takes years of making mistakes and being corrected, each week. 

You will always have time (after returning home) to do thousands of mindless drills getting things perfectly, and you honestly do not need someone to correct that stuff as much as the "Soke stuff."  The "Soke stuff" is much harder, imo, so to not pursue it during your time in Japan would be waste of good teachings....

Second is the issue of whether one allows Japan to stamp out one's "internal fire" as I call it. You simply cannot "win" against an entire culture that demands certain behaviors and attitudes. 

That is one of the reasons why I myself left Japan; I didn't want to lose *ALL* of my spirit to the overwhelming pressure of the "Japanese way." This is not a "Bujinkan specific" issue, but a broader "Japan" issue.

The Japanese have a phrase, "shiyo ga nai" (sometimes heard as "shoganai"), which means "nothing can be done" (about something). 

From one perspective, it is a very defeatist statement; it takes away one's ability to actually *CHANGE* things. From another perspective, it reflects the fact that it is wiser most of the time not to waste one's energy on petty (or deeply institutionalized and therefore impossible to change) things. 

*YOU* as a foreigner are not going to change Japan because you will it to do so. 

Still, most foreigners have difficulty becoming "defeatist" and purely accepting the "shiyo ga nai" perspective. Perhaps it is our "go gettum attitude" or instead it may be simply our hard-headedness. 

But in the end, one has to give into this perspective in order to live amicably in Japan long term. I get the feeling that this individual has finally reached the boiling point on this issue, and has decided that it is time to move on.

And I don't see that "moving on" as a bad thing, either. Anyone who has been in Japan since the early 1990s has *PLENTY* of material to keep him busy for the rest of his life. Being in Japan provides few opportunities to really digest what it is that Soke is teaching.

It personally took me about four years of being away from Japan to come to terms with what Soke had been teaching. Decompression is a good thing, and in the end, the individual may gain new insights into what he already knows by being away from Japan for some time.

One must make time to digest after a good meal, you know.... 

-ben


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

bencole said:


> So you are dissatisfied with people who don't leave Japan frustrated by a supposedly overpowering senior?


 
My aim was to bring to light a particular set of character traits.



bencole said:


> The way it was written, your post actually sounds like a criticism of Hatsumi-sensei. After all, he's the supposedly overbearing personality that is driving this loving martial artist from Japan.... Even though it is Hatsumi-sensei's art that this guy loves, trains and teaches. :shake head:


 
Again, I probably should have emphasized that that was ONE of the reasons the person left Japan. And again, I brought it up because to me (and I could be way off here) it tells me something about a person I already have tons of respect for.



bencole said:


> The idea that there is someone subjected to "constant physical and mental domination" by Hatsumi-sensei seems a bit fantastical to me (and others with whom I've spoken about this post).


 
It's not like he was forced to drink tea made from human hair or anything like that. Still, I personally would be a tad intimidated just from receiving phone calls in the middle of the night.



bencole said:


> First, should people do what Soke tells them they should do, or should people do what they themselves think is best despite what Soke says?


 
In my opinion the best answer to that question is to know your place in the food chain (big up, DWeidman). 

Though my experience with training Japan extends only to about two weeks, I know the feeling you have when you're standing there in Honbu on a Saturday morning and Hatsumi is strutting his stuff with Nagato lying in wait for the next hour - it's really like nothing else matters in the world. Not BS X-kan politics, not that Spanish idiot who keeps kicking you in the head when you're down, not the people who have shunned training with Hatsumi, because you're standing there as part of the team of the greatest martial art in the world, and the best practitioners around are in action right in front of you. I honestly considered stopping posting here at the time as well, because when you're standing there and observing the action you know that the Bujinkan is about training and nothing else is simply worth the effort to bother yourself with.

When you get home again, you realize that the aforementioned atmosphere has a bearing on your perspective. At least in regards to training on a daily basis, and in worst case scenarios - in other areas as well.


----------



## stephen

I've recently realized that the sanshin of distance, balance, and timing applies to training itself as well.....

I know, I know, duh...

Well, what I mean is that I always understood the balance and timing parts, but, until recently, there was a place in my brain that refused to believe that you could be too close.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Nimravus, people move on and grow.  This is a good thing whether in the Bujinkan or outside of it.  Growth sometimes requires movement and with this movement great growth both physically and spiritually can occur.  I for one would want to ask this person myself why they left rather than speculate on third party information.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Brian R. VanCise said:


> rather than speculate on third party information.


 
It's more than that.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

I've recently realized that you can measure how long female newbies will stay behind and train by how much they talk during their first session.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

It's no big secret that if you look hard enough, you'll be able to find dirt on pretty much anyone in the Bujinkan, or the rest of the martial arts world for that matter. As for me, I threw up on my first trining in three years due to not having focused my gaze correctly during ukemi practice, I brought metal training knives into Honbu during Hatsumi's session, I walked around way too long with unrealistic standards of power and intensity* that has been the cause of a lot of friction between me and others, and my habit of practicing my peripheral vision by not looking people in the eyes while training (as well as a tic that causes me to look up and roll my eyes when I'm contemplating advice given to me in training) gives many people the faulty impression that I'm an arrogant *** who belittles the abilities of everyone I come into contact with. That should satisfy your curiosity for now.

I'm not at all suggesting that people shouldn't have to deal with the consequences of what they've done. _It's just that no matter how hard I try, I just cannot figure out why this principle is enforced in such an insanely arbitrary manner within the Bujinkan._

To whom it may concern...
Where were you when that poor 8th kyu got verbally and physically bitchslapped in front of a large group of people two years ago due to not having ever practiced hicho no kata?
Where were you a few years ago when a person left Honbu dojo and someone commented that they'd been doing judo for two weeks, and not that the person had left they'd be able to get back to budo?
Where were you when I got kicked in the head during boxing sparring by a guy who passed his Godan test a few months back?
Where were you during that Honbu dojo session in the fourth of december three years ago?
Where were you when all those people were insulted with insinuations about them having been gang-raped by ten African men the day before?
Where were you when the exact details of "Big D's" ban were laid bare in public to a whole bunch of people who neither cared about it nor had anything to do with it?
Where were you when a fairly well-known instructor dropped those derogatory comments about Americans which were subsequently bleeped out of the DVD?
Where were you when my friend was almost unjustly thrown out of a seminar by that old-timer so many hold in high esteem?
Where were you when I got knocked out for no apparent reason?
Where were you during that seminar five years ago where the well-known guest instructor offended everyone present up to the point of both the arrangers looking noticeably uncomfortable?

I'm sorry, I know I'm rambling all over the place here. I just want to say that if anyone's intent on doing everyone a favor in the name of righteousness, there are in all likelihood better measures to take than to derail someone for being disrespectful by just stating an opinion.




*My own training between 2001 and 2003 left a lot to be desired in terms of balance manipulation and sheer taijutsu knowledge. It did however grant me a respect for and understanding of violence, pain, aggression and difficult people which I honestly believe is very, very difficult for a beginner to attain in the Bujinkan nowadays. I would not want to trade that understanding for anything else.


----------



## shesulsa

Nimravus said:


> I've recently realized that you can measure how long female newbies will stay behind and train by how much they talk during their first session.


Not always, I'm sure.  And not just female.  There have been several times I've assumed a newbie were a short-timer based on the flapping motion of the jaw for the first couple weeks!  Lo and behold, once the information they sought had been obtained, sweat began to pour.  One of those people is a long-termer recently returned who will likely test for 1st dan within the next 18 months if not 12.  Oh, and he's male. 

Although, I must say ... I feel your pain. :asian:


----------



## Rich Parsons

Nimravus said:


> Where were you when I got knocked out for no apparent reason?



So what was the reason even if it was not apparent?  (* Sorry I had to ask  *)


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

I punched at this guy, he moved in on me, next thing I knew I was lying on the floor seeing stars with him standing over me saying "you should have been more cooperative".


----------



## DWeidman

Nimravus said:


> I punched at this guy, he moved in on me, next thing I knew I was lying on the floor seeing stars with him standing over me saying "you should have been more cooperative".



I love getting back up and going.... Oh.  I was unaware we were fighting instead of training.  Let's try that again...

-Daniel


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Time to stir it up once again...

I find the "Warrior Creed" cheesy.

I like this one better: "you don't have to apologize if you accept responsibility instead".


----------



## Tez3

Nimravus said:


> I've recently realized that you can measure how long female newbies will stay behind and train by how much they talk during their first session.


 

Bollocks.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Tez3 said:


> Bollocks.


 
My Bujinkan experience tells me so.


----------



## shesulsa

Nimravus said:


> My Bujinkan experience tells me so.


Would you say, then, that it is in contrast to how long *male* newbies will stay behind and train by how much they talk during their first session?


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

shesulsa said:


> Would you say, then, that it is in contrast to how long *male* newbies will stay behind and train by how much they talk during their first session?


 
No, with guys it can't be determined that way, at least I can't.


----------



## Doc_Jude

Nimravus said:


> No, with guys it can't be determined that way, at least I can't.



Yeah, & I guess that whole "Shut Up & Train!" comment just came out of left field, huh?


----------



## shesulsa

Nimravus said:


> No, with guys it can't be determined that way, at least I can't.


So then, could you expound please? Is it an instructor's reaction to the Chatty Kathys you're noticing, or a general lack of enthusiasm on the part of the women?

And how are the men different?


----------



## Tez3

My Wado Ryu, Tang Soo Do, MMA etc experience tells me that perhaps your class is not encouraging women properly! perhaps they aren't welcome, maybe they talk during class because they don't understand the instructor and are trying hard to keep up by asking each other? Perhaps they are afraid to ask the instructor so are trying to work it out between them? Men as we all know do not ask for instructions or directions! Maybe you've only had a couple of women in the class lol!


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Doc_Jude said:


> Yeah, & I guess that whole "Shut Up & Train!" comment just came out of left field, huh?


 
The hypocrisy surrounding that quote will be covered in a future rant.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

shesulsa said:


> So then, could you expound please? Is it an instructor's reaction to the Chatty Kathys you're noticing, or a general lack of enthusiasm on the part of the women?
> 
> And how are the men different?


 
Basically, from what I've observed, the women who don't talk a lot are genuinely interested in what they've just discovered.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Tez3 said:


> My Wado Ryu, Tang Soo Do, MMA etc experience tells me that perhaps your class is not encouraging women properly!


 
We, just like every other dojo in my area (at least), attract a certain type of clientele based on our approach towards training, nothing else. 



Tez3 said:


> maybe they talk during class because they don't understand the instructor and are trying hard to keep up by asking each other?


 
Very likely. Though in most of the cases they'd have less difficulties understanding if they'd listened half as much as they talked.



Tez3 said:


> Perhaps they are afraid to ask the instructor so are trying to work it out between them?


 
Also very likely.



Tez3 said:


> Men as we all know do not ask for instructions or directions! Maybe you've only had a couple of women in the class lol!


 
I do and have always done more than anyone else around me, and yes. Though my primary instructor when I started out was female.


----------



## Doc_Jude

Nimravus said:


> The hypocrisy surrounding that quote will be covered in a future rant.



LOL!

I'll be waiting with bated breath...


----------



## Tez3

It must be so nice to have a class of perfectly quiet men!




But can they fight?


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Tez3 said:


> It must be so nice to have a class of perfectly quiet men!


 
I said earlier that you can't tell the same way with men. There are guys who talk a lot during their first session who keep up training for a relatively long time. Of course the same probably holds true for some women, but I haven't seen it.



Tez3 said:


> But can they fight?


 
Occasionally, someone's feelings get hurt.


----------



## shesulsa

I would retort that the world of martial arts is still very much a man's world; not to say there aren't prominent female figures, but truthfully very few.

I imagine many women probably seek some some solidarity amongst each other and perhaps some reassurance from male counterparts when thrust (even if willingly so) into an environment where tradition and filial piety are tantamount to success.  It could be that resistance is met when we females already carry so much internally which we are trained from the very beginning to never express - that could be from culture, nurture, evolution ....

Admittedly, I have seen many women quit when weapon training begins and when it becomes challenging - this is frustrating for me, though I've become accustomed to it.

I also wonder if some women might be more successful if appropriately encouraged or reassured by their male counterparts and some higher-ranking females if made available.

Perhaps all some of us can do is observe, judge and rant. :idunno:

And so the cycle continues ....


----------



## Tez3

I get the feeling, ever so slightly, that you don't actually like training with women.
A couple of years a go I went to a seminar where some of the participants were from a Ninjutsu club. they were very sweet and nice _men_, they wore home made clothes and hand made rope shoes.They claimed to do techniques that were centuries old and were full contact. Sadly their idea of full contact and ours was a little different. They were very into the spirit of being back in the past, more like a re-enactment society or a _boys gang! _


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Tez3 said:


> I get the feeling, ever so slightly, that you don't actually like training with women.


 
Oh boy...


----------



## Tez3

Nimravus said:


> Oh boy...


 
Not oh girl! then?


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

*"FRANCIS:* ...provided the Movement never forgets that it is the inalienable right of every man-- 
*STAN:* Or woman. 
*FRANCIS:* Or woman... to rid himself-- 
*STAN:* Or herself. 
*FRANCIS:* Or herself. 
*REG:* Agreed.
*FRANCIS:* Thank you, brother. 
*STAN:* Or sister.
*FRANCIS:* Or sister. Where was I? 
*REG:* I think you'd finished."


----------



## Tez3

Nimravus said:


> *"FRANCIS:* ...provided the Movement never forgets that it is the inalienable right of every man--
> *STAN:* Or woman.
> *FRANCIS:* Or woman... to rid himself--
> *STAN:* Or herself.
> *FRANCIS:* Or herself.
> *REG:* Agreed.
> *FRANCIS:* Thank you, brother.
> *STAN:* Or sister.
> *FRANCIS:* Or sister. Where was I?
> *REG:* I think you'd finished."


 
What's that American for? translator please!


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

It's from a movie by the Monty Python gang called "Life of Brian".


----------



## Tez3

Nimravus said:


> It's from a movie by the Monty Python gang called "Life of Brian".


 
That's nice, what's the point you are trying to make?


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Tez3 said:


> That's nice, what's the point you are trying to make?


 


Tez3 said:


> Not oh girl! then?


 
That I was asking you the same thing.


----------



## Tez3

Nimravus said:


> That I was asking you the same thing.


 
I made my point very clear, I don't do the cryptic post thing. You made a comment about women training, it came over as being critical and dismissive of women martial artists so I suggested you don't like training with females. The answer you posted was 'oh boy'. I don't play word games, I say what I mean.


----------



## Rich Parsons

Tez3 said:


> That's nice, what's the point you are trying to make?




In the English language the "Male" version of a word is used many times to describe a group or people or an abstract. It does not imply that the female version is being excluded on purpose. 

In a language that has a Male, Female, and It version of speach, there will always be a form of gender bias. In books for a game that I play many times they describe the abstract person as female. They do this, to show that females can play, but it is also done to stop the arguements over linguistics. Yet when one reads the writing one could ask now if they were not Female biased.  Oh wait, in a gender specific language this is going to happen no matter how one writes. 


I think that was the point.


*******************************************

Now I have seen in my classes (* FMA *) that the talkative ones usually do not stay in general. They like to talk more than do. I ask then to explain to me why is (1+1=2). I need three proofs. When they look at me funny and say but one plus one is two, why do I need to prove it, I just smile and say then please do the basic exercise and once you learn it you may go back and better understand it with your question. 

I have also noted that many women do not stay around. Bruises on arms or legs are something that many do not wish to deal with. Once again society may dictate what is acceptable. 

I have also seen some that as soon as the weapons training goes from slow and theory to applied they want to leave. Being an Engineer, I need my fingers and arms so obivously we are not breaking them every class. Can there be pain? Yes. Some women do not like to cause others pain. They leave after they hurt someone or they see someone get hurt. Nothing permanent, but they just do not like it. Once again it could be society and culture.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

So you're now beefing with me over my perceived misogyny because I've stated that women who don't talk a lot during their first training session tend to train longer and show more interest in what they're doing. 

Cool. I'll go listen to DJ Assault and Slick Rick now.


----------



## Tez3

A many men don't stay around in my club because we are too hard for them. I also know a good many female fighters, MMA fighters including a couple of professional fighters. 
I work with women ( as well as men) who are professional soldiers, most have just come back from Iraq, will be going back there and to Afghanistan so please don't plead "the little women don't like being hurt thing", as I said we have a good few men who do one session in our classes and don't come back.
The original comment was made about women, nothing to do with the vagueries of the English language.

_So you're now beefing with me over my perceived misogyny because I've stated that women who don't talk a lot during their first training session tend to train longer and show more interest in what they're doing. 

Cool. I'll go listen to a DJ Assault album now_.


That's called throwing your teddy bear in the corner. :lfao:

And being simplistic.......


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Tez3 said:


> A many men don't stay around in my club because we are too hard for them. I also know a good many female fighters, MMA fighters including a couple of professional fighters.


 
And Mariette van der Vliet would have sent my fingers to my parents by mail long ago if I had had any problem with women in martial arts.



Tez3 said:


> The original comment was made about women, nothing to do with the vagueries of the English language.


 
Women in the Bujinkan, no less, which you have zero experience training in.



Tez3 said:


> That's called throwing your teddy bear in the corner. :lfao:
> 
> And being simplistic.......


 
Oh, I'm sorry.


----------



## Tez3

Nimravus said:


> And Mariette van der Vliet would have sent my fingers to my parents by mail long ago if I had had any problem with women in martial arts.
> 
> 
> 
> Women in the Bujinkan, no less, which you have zero experience training in.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, I'm sorry.


 


It was too hard to say that you have no problem training with women? You had to make an inane remark about women talking though? Zero experience training in the Bujinkan eh? Interesting that you obviously know me then.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Tez3 said:


> It was too hard to say that you have no problem training with women?


 
Apparently harder than it was for you to assume that I do have them.



Tez3 said:


> You had to make an inane remark about women talking though?


 
So what's the problem with saying it if it's my honest experience?



Tez3 said:


> Zero experience training in the Bujinkan eh? Interesting that you obviously know me then.


 
Likewise.


----------



## Tez3

Nimravus said:


> Apparently harder than it was for you to assume that I do have them.
> 
> 
> 
> So what's the problem with saying it if it's my honest experience?
> 
> 
> 
> Likewise.


 

Ah the honest opinion! Everyone has those but sometimes those opinions should not be expressed if they are going to demean people.The thing I like about MT is the way respect is given to everyone and people try not to put people down. You stated apropos nothing that women who chatter in class don't stay very long. It wasn't in the context of anything you were discussing before so why say it? It had connotations whether you meant them or not that women weren't to be taken seriously in training, something that you seemed to confirm with further posts.
 I didn't state however that you disliked women training, if you check I said I had the slight feeling that you did, you could have refuted it instead of playing silly buggers with Monty Python.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Tez3 said:


> It wasn't in the context of anything you were discussing before so why say it? It had connotations whether you meant them or not that women weren't to be taken seriously in training,


 
Or I COULD have meant that if women show up at a dojo and exhibit quiet concentration, that indicates that they're going to stay around for a while. You CHOSE to interpret my post that way.


----------



## Tez3

Mods, my apologies. What started as a lighthearted comment in defence of women has turned into an argument I wasn't intending to have. I know it's called the rant thread but I thought that instead of complaining about the women talking post ( and making a mountain out of a molehill) I'd remonstrate in a lighthearted way about it. Sorry!


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

We often tend to hear that there are things we should practice often. I'd wager most here know what I'm talking about. For all our dabbling in universal adaptability, some things need to be worked on consistently in order for us to have confidence in ourselves.

But if you're somewhere around the early dan ranks/late kyu ranks and don't run your own training group, my guess is that you really don't have much of a say in what it actually is that you're going to be working on. This is the cause of a classical Bujinkan problem - because there's so much to choose from, there are times when you've practiced something over and over and you feel like you're at least beginning to get the hang of it, be it hip throws, kansetsu waza, hanbojutsu or whatever. And then someone comes home from Japan and you're stuck practicing what he's showing for the following months, at which point you discover that you suck at those other things once again.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

One more thing...

I'm sick and tired of all the guys standing on the sidelines when somebody high up is demonstrating going "oh yeah, this is soooo good..." 

If a girl runs around telling everyone how madly in love she is it's herself she's trying to convince...


----------



## Tez3

Nimravus said:


> One more thing...
> 
> I'm sick and tired of all the guys standing on the sidelines when somebody high up is demonstrating going "oh yeah, this is soooo good..."
> 
> *If a girl runs around telling everyone how madly in love she is it's herself she's trying to convince*...


 
Really? you seem to have a strange need to bring ersatz female psychology into a martial arts discussion.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

That's why I've done it twice.


----------



## Tez3

Nimravus said:


> That's why I've done it twice.


 
Can't wait for the third.....oh! I lie I can quite easily.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

You're reading stuff into my posts that aren't there based on your own preconceived notions/lack of humor/lack of understanding/whatever.

Knock it off.


----------



## Carol

*Moderator Note:

Please keep the discussion polite, respectful, and on-topic.  *

Thank You,

- Carol Kaur -
- MT Moderator -


----------



## DWeidman

Nimravus said:


> One more thing...
> 
> I'm sick and tired of all the guys standing on the sidelines when somebody high up is demonstrating going "oh yeah, this is soooo good..."



Nah.  There are two things worse than that:

1.  When the demonstration is nothing more than bad parlor tricks - but looks mystical (and isn't, and won't work on a normal person) - and the guys are like, "that is sooooooo sweet"...

but worse than that is:

2.  When someone does something pretty solid, and the two green belts, look to their shodan friend, who then butchers what just happened with a HORRIBLE explanation of what was just demonstrated... and the green belts are just nodding and nodding...  

ARRRRGGHHHHHH!

Ok.  Rant over.

-Daniel

PS.  Nim: your observations are spot on about women and talking in their first class.  I have had the SAME EXACT observation - and so far it is batting 1000.  The more talking that is done, the less time spent in class before they move on to something else.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

DWeidman said:


> Nah. There are two things worse than that:
> 
> 1. When the demonstration is nothing more than bad parlor tricks - but looks mystical (and isn't, and won't work on a normal person) - and the guys are like, "that is sooooooo sweet"...
> 
> but worse than that is:
> 
> 2. When someone does something pretty solid, and the two green belts, look to their shodan friend, who then butchers what just happened with a HORRIBLE explanation of what was just demonstrated... and the green belts are just nodding and nodding...


 
True true, but these two scenarios and the former aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.


----------



## DWeidman

Nimravus said:


> True true, but these two scenarios and the former aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.



Indeed.  

In fact, most of the time your issue will be followed directly up with my #1.

-D


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Sometimes people say that the Bujinkan is not a democracy.

Give me a break. Democracy is the only reason acceptable mediocrity is tolerated.


----------



## Doc_Jude

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> Sometimes people say that the Bujinkan is not a democracy.
> 
> Give me a break. Democracy is the only reason acceptable mediocrity is tolerated.



So, with that in mind, which would most readily breed greatness? Monarchy/Dictatorship, or Anarchy?


----------



## Doc_Jude

DWeidman said:


> ...When someone does something pretty solid, and the two green belts, look to their shodan friend, who then butchers what just happened with a HORRIBLE explanation of what was just demonstrated... and the green belts are just nodding and nodding...



No, that's what is commonly referred to as HENKA :barf:


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Doc_Jude said:


> So, with that in mind, which would most readily breed greatness? Monarchy/Dictatorship, or Anarchy?


 
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=709143&postcount=288


----------



## rutherford

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> Sometimes people say that the Bujinkan is not a democracy.
> 
> Give me a break. Democracy is the only reason acceptable mediocrity is tolerated.



Nim?  What happened?  I hope you're still a Benchmade guy at heart.


----------



## Doc_Jude

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=709143&postcount=288



Yeah, but the problem is that the "Führers" would need the skills to back up what they say, & they'd have to be willing to drop the PC crap. If the Bujinkan groups were a bit more like barbarian warrior tribes, willing to prove what they say with their hands rather than their ranks, maybe the Bujinkan could pull itself out of the Aikido-esque lack of respect that plagues it. I certainly wouldn't mind that at all. There should be more guys out there like Sean Askew that are willing to test what they know. I fully respect that guy. Plus, he's damn good for his age, & I think that his willingness to crosstrain and get his nose bloody is the reason.


----------



## stephen

Why does anyone *require* these dictators (benevolent or otherwise)?

If you respect someone, just go train with them!


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Doc_Jude said:


> There should be more guys out there like Sean Askew that are willing to test what they know.


 
There should be less people constantly mentioning their backgrounds to support their credibility.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

rutherford said:


> Nim? What happened? I hope you're still a Benchmade guy at heart.


 
Yeah, but it takes some of the sting out of knife collecting when you're legally allowed to carry a baton in plainclothes at work. :ultracool


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

stephen said:


> Why does anyone *require* these dictators (benevolent or otherwise)?


 
Because we've seen far too often what the opposite leads to.


----------



## stephen

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> Because we've seen far too often what the opposite leads to.



Yeah, it allows me to train with whomever, whenever I want.

That's all I need is a bunch of people telling me that I have to go through them or whatever. 

I really don't care if others choose to use their freedom to be bad, as long as I get the chance to try to be good. 

I just don't see how this system would help me OR the Bujinkan as a whole. 

Yeah, it might increase our street-cred, but I really really really don't care about that. Soke's teachings will survive.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

stephen said:


> Yeah, it allows me to train with whomever, whenever I want.


 
That's got nothing to do with what I was getting at.



stephen said:


> I really don't care if others choose to use their freedom to be bad, as long as I get the chance to try to be good.


 
Stay tuned for the upcoming rant on this self-centered point of view that I really don't care much for.



stephen said:


> I just don't see how this system would help me OR the Bujinkan as a whole.


 
Everything good would stay the way it is, and everything less than that would be dealt with.


----------



## stephen

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> That's got nothing to do with what I was getting at.



Ok. Sorry then.

I interpreted the whole 'housecleaning' idea to imply that certain people/instructors that were not up to some group's idea of quality would not be allowed to remain or teach. This is why I thought it would harm my ability to train with those I want to move like. 

Going back to your previous post on the other thread and re-reading, it seems like your asking for a sub-set of currect shidoshi to be more vocal in their condemnation on what they find to be bad technique/movement/budo. 

Ok, I guess. I mean I really don't have any problem with how anyone decides to teach. I'm not really sure what this solves. I'll just go to a bunch of seminars where a bunch of different people will _more_ vocally tell me what they think is right or wrong. The information won't change, just the volume.  I'll still either copy or ignore depending on what I think of it and the reliability of the instructor. 




Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> Stay tuned for the upcoming rant on this self-centered point of view that I really don't care much for.



 Ok. I do really enjoy your posts. I look forward to it. 



Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> Everything good would stay the way it is, and everything less than that would be dealt with.



So, I guess that's the point where maybe I misunderstood you earlier. What does 'dealt with' mean? 



I guess when it comes down to it, I'm very wary of anyone but Soke _dealing_ with things. I don't tend to think someones good only because a lot of people think they are. There's lots people that others wish were in charge that I'm not really interested in training with. 

I'm not willing to accept anyone putting a barrier between me and the source.


----------



## stephen

stephen said:


> ... seems like your asking for a sub-set of currect shidoshi to be more vocal





Should read : *current* shidoshi


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

stephen said:


> This is why I thought it would harm my ability to train with those I want to move like.


 
Unless you're a complete idiot, which I seriously doubt, I don't think you'd have very much to worry about. 



stephen said:


> Going back to your previous post on the other thread and re-reading, it seems like your asking for a sub-set of currect shidoshi to be more vocal in their condemnation on what they find to be bad technique/movement/budo.


 
That's one thing I'd appreciate, yes. 



stephen said:


> Ok, I guess. I mean I really don't have any problem with how anyone decides to teach.


 
I do, owing to my sense of righteousness, which also has a tendency to screw things up for me big time.



stephen said:


> What does 'dealt with' mean?


 
Depends on the particular problem. For starters, I'd really, really, REALLY appreciate it if every instructor at major seminars took the time out to explain to everyone before every session that it's fairly easy to mess up techniques for someone who's only moving at 50 percent speed.



stephen said:


> I guess when it comes down to it, I'm very wary of anyone but Soke _dealing_ with things.


 
Me too, but as I said earlier, at times we have too much democracy on our hands.



stephen said:


> There's lots people that others wish were in charge that I'm not really interested in training with.


 
There will be an upcoming rant on this topic too, basically about the fact that our opinions about certain people have a lot to do with the context in which we've first observed them.



stephen said:


> I'm not willing to accept anyone putting a barrier between me and the source.


 
Then I trust you'll tell anyone saying "what Soke means, is that...", dead it.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

I remembered why I train today. It's to have fun. Simple as that.
Unfortunately, my view of fun has very little to do with your average Shihan wisecracking.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Lie: "I only train for myself."

Few things make me as P-O-ed these days as someone trying really hard to make a point out of making this as clear as possible to people. I can stand up and walk out of a dinner sitting if I happen to have one of these blind hypocrites sitting beside me.

You don't train merely for yourself, you _teach_ for crying out loud.


----------



## stephen

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> Lie: "I only train for myself."
> 
> Few things make me as P-O-ed these days as someone trying really hard to make a point out of making this as clear as possible to people. I can stand up and walk out of a dinner sitting if I happen to have one of these blind hypocrites sitting beside me.
> 
> You don't train merely for yourself, you _teach_ for crying out loud.




GEB, I have to be honest. I like your posts. I enjoy reading them, and when things come together and we have a bit of back and forth (as on the other thread right now) - I really enjoy it. 

So, with that in mind. I wouldn't mind stretching out this particular point a bit further and see if we can't come to understand each other a bit more.


I say that I train only for myself. 

and.....

* Queue loud banging drums ("Dum DUM DUUUUMMM") and reverb....*

I teach. 



Of course, a statement such as, "I teach only for myself" (which is another version that I've used) can seem a bit....uh....confrontational. Maybe that's why I use it.

I've always liked, usually to my detriment, spouting my particular brand of in-your-face nonsense. However, there really is a point behind it; hiding somewhere, cowering in the dark, afraid that I'll throw it out into the light and beat it senselessly until I've vented my share for 1 hour and 58 minutes more than anyone needed to hear to understand what I was saying. 

It really deserves a bit of fleshing out, I guess. If your interested, I can try to give it some more color....or if you're just venting - that's cool too.

In fact, even before you mentioned it I was thinking about talking a bit about it tonight in class; but mostly in the context that I'm not sure that anyone can really 'be taught'. I think that information can 'be presented', but no one can _force _anyone to learn_. _I've heard people say that all learning is really self-learning, I think that I believe that now.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

So far I don't see us coming any closer to an understanding.


----------



## stephen

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> So far I don't see us coming any closer to an understanding.



That's okay too.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

As in, "could you explain?"


----------



## stephen

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> As in, "could you explain?"



I guess for me it's a bit like the difference between going to a physics class and interning with a physicist. 

One is a teacher and the other a mentor. 

A teacher concentrates on imparting his existing knowledge to the student as his main goal. Odds are, he's not getting better himself. In fact, his knowledge and ability is probably decaying to the level of his students.

The mentor wants to get you up to speed as quickly as possible so you can help out with the research. In other words, so that you can make him better. He will continue to improve, and now that he has good assistants he can improve at a faster rate than before - which will cause his assistants to improve (they'll have a better model!) - which will enable him to improve - etc...

Now it's true that the mentor may ignore or fire someone because it's clear that there's no way they'll ever be a good physicists (or maybe they don't work hard enough). It's not for everyone after all! But them are the breaks. To spend too much effort with them is a disservice to those who are busting their asses trying to keep up. 

So I show those who come to my classes how to improve (well, IMO anyway) so that they can help me improve by forcing me to up my game constantly.

So that's my analogy. My personal experience is that I feel like my personal progress is aided to a much higher degree by those people who have the "I'm in it for myself" mentality. Therefore those are the shidoshi who I tend to train with and emulate.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

First, let me state up front that I decided for myself long ago that I *REALLY* don't want to teach. I want absolutely no responsibility at all for the prolonged longevity of Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. Call me immature, cynical, bitter or whatever, but I seriously do not want any part of it (someone may infer that this probably has something to do with the unlikelyhood of my ever having the possibility to sit for the godan test, well, no comment on that one). 

Having said that, I also believe that no one truly trains only for him/herself. If that really were the case, they wouldn't get very well along with the people around them.

More will follow in a while.


----------



## stephen

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> First, let me state up front that I decided for myself long ago that I *REALLY* don't want to teach.



To be honest, I'm not a fan of teaching. I wish I were able to be back in my teacher's dojo. However, it's just not possible as I now live 5000 miles away!



Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> I want absolutely no responsibility at all for the prolonged longevity of Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu.



Neither do I. Convienently, neither of us have that responsibility. I think that is Soke's alone. 



Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> Call me immature, cynical, bitter or whatever, but I seriously do not want any part of it (someone may infer that this probably has something to do with the unlikelyhood of my ever having the possibility to sit for the godan test, well, no comment on that one).



Why would it have something to do with the godan test? I mean, why would you not be able to sit it? 



Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> Having said that, I also believe that no one truly trains only for him/herself. If that really were the case, they wouldn't get very well along with the people around them.



I find that the dojo where everyone is training 'for themselves' tend to have more friendly dynamics. People seem to understand that we're all in this together and we need to help each other so that we can better ourselves. In other words, we're all working on the same project.

I go to work for myself. I really really like it, but I don't think I'd do it if I weren't paid. That being said, my office is a very friendly environment where we all get along pretty well.


----------



## jks9199

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> First, let me state up front that I decided for myself long ago that I *REALLY* don't want to teach. I want absolutely no responsibility at all for the prolonged longevity of Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. Call me immature, cynical, bitter or whatever, but I seriously do not want any part of it (someone may infer that this probably has something to do with the unlikelyhood of my ever having the possibility to sit for the godan test, well, no comment on that one).
> 
> Having said that, I also believe that no one truly trains only for him/herself. If that really were the case, they wouldn't get very well along with the people around them.
> 
> More will follow in a while.


I've got a problem with the way you phrase this.  Senior students have a responsibility to repay the help they were given when they started, and continue to receive from their own seniors.  That doesn't mean that everyone has to run a class or training group.  Nor does it mean that passing on the art and ensuring that there's a "next generation" to follow you.  A significant part of that repayment is training hard and well.  But, another part is that everyone should be willing and ready, when asked by the instructor, to share what they've learned and assist new students.  That's a form of teaching.  So is working with your training partner to see that you both understand the exercise you're working.  And it's recognizing that, in a formal style, we all have a responsibility to the group and style as a whole.

Now, I strongly suspect that you do all of this


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

stephen said:


> To be honest, I'm not a fan of teaching. I wish I were able to be back in my teacher's dojo. However, it's just not possible as I now live 5000 miles away!


 
Well, I'm spoiled.




stephen said:


> Neither do I. Convienently, neither of us have that responsibility. I think that is Soke's alone.


 
I know that what I'm about to say here may be considered extremely rude, and to that I apologize, because I don't want to go through that discussion again.

But not for long. 



stephen said:


> Why would it have something to do with the godan test? I mean, why would you not be able to sit it?


 
Let's just say that I think and worry too much. Besides, if Hatsumi ordered a Western shihan to do the test with me, I'd walk out and quit training that instant. No kidding on that one.



stephen said:


> I find that the dojo where everyone is training 'for themselves' tend to have more friendly dynamics.


 
Funny, my experience is the exact opposite. To keep us from delving to deep into semantics, why don't we just say that it depends on how you look at it.



stephen said:


> I go to work for myself. I really really like it, but I don't think I'd do it if I weren't paid. That being said, my office is a very friendly environment where we all get along pretty well.


 
My two bosses are an evil pre-school teacher and a stereotypical Mediterranian. :ultracool The only ones I really have to talk to are them, the perps and the cops.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

jks9199 said:


> Senior students have a responsibility to repay the help they were given when they started, and continue to receive from their own seniors.


 
I've made it very clear that if I'm given any kind of responsibility where I train, I'm going to abuse it. So far, everyone's happy and satisfied with that arrangement.



jks9199 said:


> But, another part is that everyone should be willing and ready, when asked by the instructor, to share what they've learned and assist new students.


 
Except if they're not suited to do so.



jks9199 said:


> Now, I strongly suspect that you do all of this


 
Nope.


----------



## Bigshadow

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> I've made it very clear that if I'm given any kind of responsibility where I train, I'm going to abuse it.



We all have our own demons and obstacles in our training that we have to fight and overcome to move to the next level.  I certainly have my share.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> So far, everyone's happy and satisfied with that arrangement.


 
:wavey:


----------



## jks9199

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jks9199*
> 
> 
> _Now, I strongly suspect that you do all of this_
> 
> 
> Nope.


 
Well... I seem to have gotten interrupted mid-thought, and I don't know exactly where I was going...  but I think it was something along these lines:

I suspect that you do work with your partners and even offer advice and guidance to new students; you may not think of it as teaching them, but you are.

Now... to expand in response to "NOPE."

Whether you like it or not, as a student, you DO teach others.  You teach partners as you work with them; you teach new students who see your movement and your technique, and copy it.  You teach people when you share your views of training here.   And, you're really cheating yourself if you never take the advantage to help someone begin their journey.  When you teach something, you find details and you learn more about it than when you simply do it.  Even a mediocre teacher learns more from teaching than the student!


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

jks9199 said:


> I suspect that you do work with your partners


 
Yes.



jks9199 said:


> and even offer advice and guidance to new students;


 
No.



jks9199 said:


> you teach new students who see your movement and your technique, and copy it.


 
No. They don't look at me, and they shouldn't.



jks9199 said:


> You teach people when you share your views of training here.


 
No, not really.



jks9199 said:


> And, you're really cheating yourself if you never take the advantage to help someone begin their journey.


 
Be that as it may, I don't want to and I don't have to.



jks9199 said:


> Even a mediocre teacher learns more from teaching than the student!


 
Mediocre teachers are the root of most of the problems that haunt the Bujinkan today.


----------



## stephen

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> Mediocre teachers are the root of most of the problems that haunt the Bujinkan today.



I'm not sure I have this opinion, but one could also make the argument, using the usual logic that most who disparage the Bujinkan use, that the real problem (if there is one, which, again, I don't really think there is) is mediocre students.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

stephen said:


> I'm not sure I have this opinion, but one could also make the argument, using the usual logic that most who disparage the Bujinkan use, that the real problem (if there is one, which, again, I don't really think there is) is mediocre students.


 
In my world, good teachers keep mediocre students away. Yes, I'm a fascist.


----------



## stephen

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> In my world, good teachers keep mediocre students away. Yes, I'm a fascist.



In my world, good students think for themselves and find good teachers - and just don't care about the mediocre teachers or students.

Yes, I'm an anarchist.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

stephen said:


> In my world, good students think for themselves and find good teachers - and just don't care about the mediocre teachers or students.
> 
> Yes, I'm an anarchist.


 
The only reason you don't kill yourself for having to get out of bed half past six in the morning and go to school for nearly a decade or more is because you don't have anything else to compare that lifestyle with. Good students in my world are those who have various points of reference - which you don't until you've trained around a bit.

A big part of the Bujinkan is based around the assumption that people are reasonable individuals. And that assumption...well, let's just say that it turns both you and I into distant relatives of horses.


----------



## stephen

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> A big part of the Bujinkan is based around the assumption that people are reasonable individuals. And that assumption...well, let's just say that it turns both you and I into distant relatives of horses.




A big part of society is based on the assumption that people are reasonable. Some are, some aren't, but the more free people are the more freedom they have to be as bad or good as they want. 

Societies which have less frictions involved in movements between socal circles tend to have more innovation and better economic success. They also can have some people fall through the cracks. But, since the Bujinkan is not a social welfare outreach program, that's probably okay.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

stephen said:


> A big part of society is based on the assumption that people are reasonable. Some are, some aren't, but the more free people are the more freedom they have to be as bad or good as they want.


 
As I've said before, in the case of the Bujinkan I personally think we've had way too much freedom on our hands. This is nothing I have the means to affect myself.



stephen said:


> Societies which have less frictions involved in movements between socal circles tend to have more innovation and better economic success.


 
The key word here being economic success...:ultracool no seriously, I'm not going to head down that road again.



stephen said:


> They also can have some people fall through the cracks.


 
It doesn't have to be that way, plain and simple.



stephen said:


> But, since the Bujinkan is not a social welfare outreach program, that's probably okay.


 
It's NOT ok, says me teeming with righteous indignation.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

I was going to start this with a long rant with its basis in my own training regime. Instead I'm just going to say this - I cannot understand why people are so eager to practice on their own without supervision.

Every single training at my home dojo I make errors I wouldn't even have known about if I hadn't had them pointed out to me. I don't even want to think about what it would be like if I'd had those faults ingrained in me from training by myself.


----------



## MrFunnieman

stephen said:


> I'm not sure I have this opinion, but one could also make the argument, using the usual logic that most who disparage the Bujinkan use, that the real problem (if there is one, which, again, I don't really think there is) is mediocre students.


 
Hey Fellas,

It's called the bell curve.  The majority of students statistically will be mediocre.  A few good students, a few bad students and whole lot in the middle.  

I heard somthing funny the other day, in the US 50% (or so) of marriages end in divorce.  If you take a room full of newlyweds and ask then to raise their hand if they think they will be divorced, nobody in the room will raise their hands, statistically though have the room will get divorces.  A hicup of reality.  I also heard that people will come into a law office wanting to write a will _if_ they die.  Guess what... there are no _if_s.

Why do I bring this up?  What's the chances that "we" are in the top ten percent of students?  It was a blow to the ego, but I realized where I stand.  Mediocre students make up the bulk of the Bujinkan or any other martial art for that matter. It's the nature of the beast.


----------



## stephen

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> I was going to start this with a long rant with its basis in my own training regime. Instead I'm just going to say this - I cannot understand why people are so eager to practice on their own without supervision.
> 
> Every single training at my home dojo I make errors I wouldn't even have known about if I hadn't had them pointed out to me. I don't even want to think about what it would be like if I'd had those faults ingrained in me from training by myself.




I am not a Buddhist, at least not in any identifiable form. So if someone were to give me a govenment form, I wouldn't check "Buddhist". However, I really enjoy the writings of a guy named Brad Warner. 

He's a regular American guy who moved to Japan (to work in Godzilla and Ultraman type movies) and now writes a bit about Buddhism. 

Anyway the point: 

I was reading some of his old blog entries and I came upon this bit:

http://hardcorezen.blogspot.com/2006/04/abuse-of-power-in-zen.html



			
				Brad Warner said:
			
		

> A good Zen teacher will toss the power you attempt to hand him right back at you like a hot potato. For the student this is extremely frustrating. When it happened to me, I hated it. Hated it. Wanted desprately to find someone who would take my power from me, so I could relax and let him take the blame for everything. I mean, how can you possibly know if you are progressing unless your teacher tells you you're progressing? How indeed? But the idea of "progress" is one of the things you need to give up. You will never progress. Not one bit. You will never reach Enlightenment. And if you do, you can be sure it's a scam.



A lot of Brad's writings have really hit home and allowed me to hone my understandiing of training. I also have found that his books (which are very entertaining reads) gave me an interesting window on a component of Japanese culture that helped me to understand some of the context (that is: _Japanese culture_ *not* _Buddhism_) for this Japanese organization called "Bujinkan".


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

I'm sure the yondan who had trained less than a year and received a concussion courtesy of Hatsumi while attempting the Godan test used very similar methods of self-rationalization.

Yes, I'm aware that I will get negative rep for stating that.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Lie: "This art adapts to you, you don't have to adapt to it."

Common phrase among people who can't or simply don't like to bend their knees. 'Nuff said.


----------



## Cryozombie

I didnt say this


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Food for thought...

How do you perform ukemi when subjected to a German suplex?


----------



## Shicomm

I think that the thing "performing ukemi" isn't really the point.
It's more a thing of ; 'what happens just happens' imho.
Most of the time a german suplex ends up in a sort of  'crash'  anyhow...
Try to not have any injuries would fit best here imho  

Reminds me of a few 'crashes' while figuring out tomoe nage...  ouch.... :uhohh:


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Been looking through some Daikomyosai videos lately.

Are people actually aware that they're being filmed there? I mean, at all?


----------



## benkyoka

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> Been looking through some Daikomyosai videos lately.
> 
> Are people actually aware that they're being filmed there? I mean, at all?



Would it make a difference if they did know?


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

I can't show people how it's supposed to be done, because though I have a pretty good idea how to, I can't do it myself yet. There are however plenty of people who can show how it's supposed to be done, but none of them are very popular to train with.


----------



## Shicomm

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> I can't show people how it's supposed to be done ...



So for that reason you should not be in front of the camera while it's recording during a class/seminar ? 

Why is i may ask ? 
Because it's some kind of wrong to be filmed while doing something wrong / otherwise / not perfectly ? 

There is camming going on regularly at hombu ( and other places ) and i'm sure that my "try to be not too clumsy" actions have been recorded in some kind of way.
I'm just learning , maybe i'll get it a bit less clumsy in the future


----------



## Sorros

Who here has trained with Peter Cochral here in Tempe. I did years ago.
I saw him sparring with Hatsume in the show, the Deadliest Martial Arts.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Shicomm said:


> So for that reason you should not be in front of the camera while it's recording during a class/seminar ?


 
Not what I was getting at, but sure, I value my integrity. 



Shicomm said:


> Why is i may ask ?
> Because it's some kind of wrong to be filmed while doing something wrong / otherwise / not perfectly ?


 
A wise man once said, if you can't remember all the idiocy you've ever been responsible for, someone else will.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

When I'm away from my home dojo training with someone I've never met before who doesn't speak the same languages as I, can't gauge his power, time my attacks, bend his knees or utilize distance, that affects my training.

When a person with a slight but obvious mental handicap responds to my horisontal bo swing with a useless parry and a hard, non-scripted thrust to my ribcage with a bokken, that affects my training.

When a dan-ranked person in Honbu asks me to take one more step with my attack to "make it easier for both of us", that affects my training.

When we're doing takedown randori from a kumiuchi hold, and a green belt attempts to pull off an oni kudaki on me which would have resulted in a torn rotator cuff on anyone with less training time under his belt, that affects my training.

When I let go of an armbar after having brought a person to the ground, and he immediately attempts to kick me or go for a singleleg just to prove that he can, that affects my training.

When I encounter someone who can't feel the difference between strength and power, that affects my training.

When a 15th dan drops his sword from his belt during a demonstration and tells everyone present that it doesn't matter, that affects my training.

When a person for some reason refuses to do what the instructor has just been showing because "it's about a feeling rather than a technique", that affects my training.

When I've got my knee over someone's elbow and he attempts to muscle out of it, because he believes that pain indicates the usage of strength, that affects my training.

When a person punches or kicks where I'm headed instead of where I'm at, that affects my training.

When fifth kyu who receives fourth dan in less than two years not only points a soft air gun at a 15th dan and pulls the trigger, but remains constantly hunched over as if he's constipated and actively works against the things I'm attempting to replicate from the instructor in charge, that affects my training.

When the instructor tells everyone that it's time to drop the swords and go over the footwork again because everyone's doing pure, unmitigated crap, that affects my training.

When someone attempts to counter my movements out of sync because "it's more fun for me that way", that affects my training.

When someone punches at me with a half-open fist, that affects my training.

When someone can't pull his knee up to his chest and do a proper kick, that affects my training.

Etc etc etc.

Now, if I myself were a judan+ with the stomach for putting up with the constant smell of chlorine and used cooking oil whilst living in Japan under constant exposure to the best the Bujinkan has to offer, then I too could care less about the skill level of other people, especially in other countries. That is however not the case. Make of this what you will.


----------



## Shicomm

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> Now, if I myself were a judan+ with the stomach for putting up with the constant smell of chlorine and used cooking oil whilst living in Japan under constant exposure to the best the Bujinkan has to offer, then I too could care less about the skill level of other people, especially in other countries. That is however not the case. Make of this what you will.



The best thing is that you even don't have to be yudansha to see that ; just show up a few times at hombu for training and have a good look around...

Sometimes it's good for a laugh later that nite with some good buyu and a beer


----------



## chrisa

Green eyed bandit, that was the best rant that I have ever heard, just had to let you know.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

For purposes of clarification...

Lie: "It doesn't affect me if other people suck."


----------



## newtothe dark

Grey Eye that freaking rocks the best ranty ever should be in the hall of Fame!!!!!:bow:


----------



## Cryozombie

I have a rant, make of it what you will.  Personally these things bug the living crap out of me, tend to come across as, beyond eliteist and stupid, and sound like they come from people who woke up one morning, popped the blue pill and suddenly knew Budo with Hatsumi's skill level.

1) People say "This art just doesnt need anyone else studying it" or variations thereof.  In a way this is true... the art doesnt need people, but you know what?  People need the art.  The things this art teaches, the skills, ideas, and the rest of the package are needed by people in this world.  Why tell them to go someplace else?

2) People who expect perfection from everyone.  So that whitebelt on his second day of class should be able to imitate Hatsumi's movement right off the bat? He should have total flexability in his knees and hips and be able to lift and stretch them to the level required for some techniques?  Everyone who started perfectly in this art and didnt need to be taught the movements, timing, Ideas, and change themselves even a little bit raise your hands?  Yeah, I thought so.

3) People who think flawless execution of of our Kata & Techniques a good fighter makes.  In my humble opinion, kata and technique are tools to learn from, not skills to have mastered.  Jack Hoban said to us at a Seminar last year Techniques won't work, you need a strategy.  Kata and technique are important, don't get me wrong, but I believe the guy who is a master of 100 kata will likley lose to the guy who knows 20 pretty well, but also understands timing, distance and space, and has a plan... 

There is more, but those are my big three right now.  Everyone comes from somplace, and everyone starts at the beginning.  I don't know anyone born into the art with perfect mastery as a baby (although I am aware of a Taekwondo instructor who awarded his newborn baby a blackbelt because they could see his flawless form in the womb, so I guess anything is possible, right?) and expecting anything else is pretty silly.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Cryozombie said:


> 1) People say "This art just doesnt need anyone else studying it" or variations thereof. In a way this is true... the art doesnt need people, but you know what? People need the art. The things this art teaches, the skills, ideas, and the rest of the package are needed by people in this world. Why tell them to go someplace else?


 
Well, on some level it doesn't really make sense that people want to devote themselves to the Bujinkan. You'd think that most people have enough trouble as it is.



Cryozombie said:


> 3) People who think flawless execution of of our Kata & Techniques a good fighter makes.


 
Personally, I've never encountered a person with the ability to perform good kata who wasn't also a hell of a fighter with good understanding of timing and distance.


----------



## Cryozombie

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> Personally, I've never encountered a person with the ability to perform good kata who wasn't also a hell of a fighter with good understanding of timing and distance.


 
Well, Ive seen "Kata Collectors" whos kata looked damn good TO ME.  Not that that is saying much, because who am I to judge... but...


----------



## Kreth

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> Personally, I've never encountered a person with the ability to perform good kata who wasn't also a hell of a fighter with good understanding of timing and distance.


I've seen quite a few kata collectors (or "librarians," as I like to call them), who could demonstrate a picture perfect kata but didn't understand the underlying strategy enough to make it work outside of a demonstration scenario.


----------



## benkyoka

Cryozombie said:


> I believe the guy who is a master of 100 kata will likley lose to the guy who knows 20 pretty well, but also understands timing, distance and space, and has a plan...



Don't you think that a person who is able to master 100 kata would have an excellent understanding of timing, distance and space?  That's what the kata are there to teach you.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Kreth said:


> I've seen quite a few kata collectors (or "librarians," as I like to call them), who could demonstrate a picture perfect kata but didn't understand the underlying strategy enough to make it work outside of a demonstration scenario.


 
The way I look at it, your taijutsu reflects your personality in everything you do.


----------



## Cryozombie

benkyoka said:


> Don't you think that a person who is able to master 100 kata would have an excellent understanding of timing, distance and space? That's what the kata are there to teach you.


 
No.  Kreth's answer is exactly what I was thinking of.  Ive met some of these people as well.



Kreth said:


> I've seen quite a few kata collectors (or "librarians," as I like to call them), who could demonstrate a picture perfect kata but didn't understand the underlying strategy enough to make it work outside of a demonstration scenario.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

A while ago, I might have been inclined to agree, in regards to some people. Looking back on it now, their execution of kata probably wasn't quite as flawless as I might have thought to begin with.


----------



## benkyoka

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> A while ago, I might have been inclined to agree, in regards to some people. Looking back on it now, their execution of kata probably wasn't quite as flawless as I might have thought to begin with.



ding!ding!  Just because someone 'knows' a kata does not mean they have mastered it.  (On a related note; unless you have mastered a particular kata you may not be in a position to judge another's execution of it.  As you progress through the kata, and your knowledge of it increases, you are more and more able to evaluate another's execution of it.  If you don't believe kata are useful and don't practice them, then you really can't judge).

If you have not learned the strategy, distance, and timing involved in a kata and can't use those outside of a kata, then you haven't mastered anything.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

benkyoka said:


> On a related note; unless you have mastered a particular kata you may not be in a position to judge another's execution of it.


 
Bad taijutsu has a tendency to manifest itself in either case.


----------



## benkyoka

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> Bad taijutsu has a tendency to manifest itself in either case.



True.  Bad taijutsu looks bad.  But without a good knowledge of what constitutes good taijutsu and its useage, mediocre taijutsu can appear 'good'.  Mediocrity does not a master make.


----------



## Cryozombie

benkyoka said:


> On a related note; unless you have mastered a particular kata you may not be in a position to judge another's execution of it.


 
I dunno man... that sounds like a circular argument to me.  If you have to master somthing to know what someone who looks as tho they are mastering it has mastered it, is it mastery or your idea of mastery based on the fact you believe you have mastered it?  

How do you know when you have mastered it?  When you look like someone else doing it? But how do you know that looking like them is mastery?  They may not be a master and by your argument you wouldnt know... heck, by that argument we can't even be sure Hatsumi is a master since we are not masters... I mean, some people can say they are and therefore they know he is, but how do we know they are...

I just can't buy that.  Sorry.  I get where you are coming from, but I think the idea falls short.  

In fact, you and Tim and all the rest of you will forgive me, I don't know who most of you are, are you masters?  Is your opinion of the subject based on that level of mastery that allow you to make that judgement, or are they just opinions, like mine? because  I am certainly NOT a master, and can only make my judgements based on what I have seen, and to an extent, heard from others.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Cryozombie said:


> I dunno man... that sounds like a circular argument to me. If you have to master somthing to know what someone who looks as tho they are mastering it has mastered it, is it mastery or your idea of mastery based on the fact you believe you have mastered it?
> 
> How do you know when you have mastered it? When you look like someone else doing it? But how do you know that looking like them is mastery? They may not be a master and by your argument you wouldnt know... heck, by that argument we can't even be sure Hatsumi is a master since we are not masters... I mean, some people can say they are and therefore they know he is, but how do we know they are...
> 
> I just can't buy that. Sorry. I get where you are coming from, but I think the idea falls short.
> 
> In fact, you and Tim and all the rest of you will forgive me, I don't know who most of you are, are you masters? Is your opinion of the subject based on that level of mastery that allow you to make that judgement, or are they just opinions, like mine? because I am certainly NOT a master, and can only make my judgements based on what I have seen, and to an extent, heard from others.


 
He said "may not".

Anyway, for me evaluating taijutsu is a relatively simple (that's not to say easy) matter of various things being in place. There are these small cues in the overall body language of a person that kind of tips me off whether or not he or she really knows what they're doing. Kind of like how I can tell the difference between real carpenters and professional thieves dressed up as carpenters. :ultracool


----------



## benkyoka

Cryozombie said:


> I dunno man... that sounds like a circular argument to me.  If you have to master somthing to know what someone who looks as tho they are mastering it has mastered it, is it mastery or your idea of mastery based on the fact you believe you have mastered it?
> 
> How do you know when you have mastered it?  When you look like someone else doing it? But how do you know that looking like them is mastery?  They may not be a master and by your argument you wouldnt know... heck, by that argument we can't even be sure Hatsumi is a master since we are not masters... I mean, some people can say they are and therefore they know he is, but how do we know they are...
> 
> I just can't buy that.  Sorry.  I get where you are coming from, but I think the idea falls short.
> 
> In fact, you and Tim and all the rest of you will forgive me, I don't know who most of you are, are you masters?  Is your opinion of the subject based on that level of mastery that allow you to make that judgement, or are they just opinions, like mine? because  I am certainly NOT a master, and can only make my judgements based on what I have seen, and to an extent, heard from others.



That was quite the post, and I think for the most part I agree with you. My concern seems to be the comments regarding the mastering of kata without being able to apply the lessons of the kata.  This seems to be a contradiction.  

Kreth stated


			
				Kreth said:
			
		

> 've seen quite a few kata collectors (or "librarians," as I like to call them), who could demonstrate a picture perfect kata but didn't understand the underlying strategy enough to make it work outside of a demonstration scenario



Not to pick on you, Kreth but what is there outside of a demonstration scenario in regards to the bujinkan?  Sparring, perhaps?  But how many dojo do that?  Henka, perhaps?  But how many times have you seen a person do a henka that does not embody any of the principles of the kata being demonstrated?

How do you feel you can learn proper strategy, distance, timing, etc outside of the kata?  By henka? but you need to know (really know) kata before you can take the principles to henka.

The 'kata collector' stigma seems to be often used as an excuse by people who don't know (really know) kata and need to justify what they are doing instead.

but that's just my opinion.


----------



## Kreth

benkyoka said:


> Not to pick on you, Kreth but what is there outside of a demonstration scenario in regards to the bujinkan? Sparring, perhaps? But how many dojo do that? Henka, perhaps? But how many times have you seen a person do a henka that does not embody any of the principles of the kata being demonstrated?


Both of the above can point out a lack of understanding. I've also had people "freeze" during kata training because my attack wasn't exactly what they were used to.



> How do you feel you can learn proper strategy, distance, timing, etc outside of the kata? By henka? but you need to know (really know) kata before you can take the principles to henka.


I don't believe I suggested "throwing out" kata, I just commented that there are many in the Bujinkan who can perform a kata technically correct without understanding it. It's kind of like a guitarist memorizing a Clapton solo. It sounds great, but what about improvisation, and developing your own sound?



> The 'kata collector' stigma seems to be often used as an excuse by people who don't know (really know) kata and need to justify what they are doing instead.
> 
> but that's just my opinion.


I call 'em as I see 'em. :idunno:


----------



## Vonbek

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> He said "may not".
> 
> Anyway, for me evaluating taijutsu is a relatively simple (that's not to say easy) matter of various things being in place. There are these small cues in the overall body language of a person that kind of tips me off whether or not he or she really knows what they're doing. Kind of like how I can tell the difference between real carpenters and professional thieves dressed up as carpenters. :ultracool


 
Can you please explain further what are these cues?


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Kreth said:


> Both of the above can point out a lack of understanding. I've also had people "freeze" during kata training because my attack wasn't exactly what they were used to.


 
Which leads me to wonder if what you were doing was actually kata per se...?


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Vonbek said:


> Can you please explain further what are these cues?


 
To begin with, anything that defies my sense of logic.


----------



## Kreth

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> Which leads me to wonder if what you were doing was actually kata per se...?


I've been doing this for a while, I think I know when I'm doing kata. Now if they were used to an unrealistic attack...


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Kreth said:


> I've been doing this for a while, I think I know when I'm doing kata. Now if they were used to an unrealistic attack...


 
*Your definition *of a realistic attack.


----------



## Kreth

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> *Your definition *of a realistic attack.


I'll take my definition over what I see coming from the Bujinkan/New Age dojo out there. Why bother performing the kata if the attack would never land in the first place?


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Kreth said:


> Why bother performing the kata if the attack would never land in the first place?


 
Did I say that attacks aren't supposed to hit home?


----------



## Kreth

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> Did I say that attacks aren't supposed to hit home?


No, you were busy questioning my training methods, when, to the best of my knowledge, we've never trained together...


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

"Questioning" perhaps isn't the proper term. Why don't you let me know what you believe constitutes a "realistic" attack, then? Realistic as in

a) uncommitted attack by trained martial artist

b) committed attack by trained martial artist

c) uncommitted attack by untrained person

d) committed attack by untrained person

or what?


----------



## Kreth

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> &quot;Questioning&quot; perhaps isn't the proper term. Why don't you let me know what you believe constitutes a &quot;realistic&quot; attack, then? Realistic as in
> a) uncommitted attack by trained martial artist
> 
> b) committed attack by trained martial artist


</p> 
Since we're talking kata training, B; although it seemed some were more used to A...


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Kreth said:


> </p>
> Since we're talking kata training, B; although it seemed some were more used to A...


 
A can be pretty effective too.


----------



## Kreth

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> A can be pretty effective too.


Apparently we have different definitions of an uncommitted attack...


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Kreth said:


> Apparently we have different definitions of an uncommitted attack...


 
Possibly.

To be more specific, I personally believe the two latter are more likely to encounter for real than the two former. That is not to say that a and b will never happen for real however, and thus, I for one would try to avoid labelling any of them "realistic".


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

I have this quirk about me - a lot of the things that are frequent sources of amusement to Bujinkan people, I simply don't find funny. Sorry to say it.

Ben Jones comments in the book "Exploring the Essence" that Soke's sense of humour often revolves around the lowest common denominator, and that can be said in many other cases as well.


----------



## Cryozombie

> Hatsumi sensei: Trying to reproduce a form is being its prisoner, the form kills the KI, the creativity as well as the spontaneity.


 
But what does he know about this art... probably just says this cuz he cant bend his knees, right G.E.B.?

:idunno::idunno:


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Cryozombie said:


> But what does he know about this art... probably just says this cuz he cant bend his knees, right G.E.B.?


 
He can bend his knees a lot better than most people his age. :2xBird2:

"The Bujinkan is about killing people."


----------



## Cryozombie

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> He can bend his knees a lot better than most people his age. :2xBird2:


 
But just a couple pages back, arent you the one that said people only say variations of this because they use it as a way to justify not bending their knees?


----------



## Cryozombie

No, I take that back, I went back and reread your statement, and it wasnt about deviating from technique it was about adapting the art.  My bad.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

I honestly cannot understand why a 15th dan would say to a kyu ranked person "if you can't understand this, you're going to be headed in the wrong direction in regards to what Hatsumi sensei is teaching".

Now, onto the real issues...even though you'll probably notice that I'm not exactly sure where this one's headed.



bencole said:


> One day during training, Nagato-sensei said to me, Ben. Your foot is in the wrong place. Move it over there.
> 
> I slid my foot. Here? I asked.
> 
> No. There. Nagato answered.
> 
> I moved my foot the place Nagato pointed, then asked, Why here?
> Nagato answered, Because thats where your foot should be.
> I nodded and continued training.
> 
> About two months later, Nagato-sensei again told me to move my foot to a different location. I did, and then I (dumbly) asked, Why? again.
> Nagato-sensei again said, Because thats where your foot should be.
> 
> Over time, I came to understand that was where my foot should be, and I didnt need to ask why. It was evident in the progress of my budo.
> 
> My teacher told me what I should do, and I did it. And my budo began to improve as a result.






bencole said:


> Now, in the mid 2000s, a whole bunch of Shidoshi are convinced that Kacem Zoughari (under Tetsuji Ishizuka) is teaching the true way. It is only a matter of time until these two individuals also leave the Bujinkan, I predict.


 
See, here's the thing - these two latter individuals are gaining in popularity because they teach in the exact manner described above. Which is more than can be said of anyone who teaches in Honbu these days. I'll leave it up to your own imagination to figure out how I feel qualified to comment on this.

I think we can all agree on the fact that Hatsumi can't and shouldn't be responsible for improving the kihon of everyone that shows up in Honbu. He needs to concentrate on bringing across the stuff only he can teach to the ones best suited to picking up the most of it. Perhaps this is all the more reason for people who are (note - who "are", not who "have") low ranking to not try to do what he does.

Why do I say that? Because I believe the truth will be made clear as day in times to come (when Soke is no longer teaching, for one reason or another) - if the disillusioned people going on about "testable" training should prove to be right, and most people thinking they've got a grip on what Hatsumi's teaching are playing themselves big time in that they're unable to pass on the knowledge, the whole budo community will be ashamed and wonder how things could go so wrong. But at the same time, those training with said individuals will have gotten a very good grip on kihon happo.
If however, the future's been secured and there's nothing to worry about, then there'll not only be a plethora of people to choose from who can pass along Soke's teachings, but we'll have all the time in the world to mend our ways and move beyond the form, which of course we'll all have mastered by that time.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

On refusing rank...

I haven't risen through the ranks anywhere near as fast as is common in the Bujinkan nowadays. Personally (and this is only a gut feeling on my part, nothing more and nothing less) I believe that this has primarily to do with three things - 20 percent due to my tendency to ruffle feathers (however right I may be), 20 percent due to the fact that I tend to keep two or three steps ahead of current events and can sometimes have a hard time focusing on the moment, and 60 percent due to my relative absence for the last two and a half years. That is, absence from my main dojo - I've come to realize that I won't ever be able to settle for just training with one single instructor for the rest of my budo career, perhaps because out of the five particular people I never feel I get enough from, two have fairly irregular teaching schedules and three live in Japan. Adding to this is the fact that it hasn't been until now that I've felt myself to be in the position to argue for better hours with my bosses, and thus haven't always been able to make it in time throughout the same period of time.

Despite all this, I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that all I'd need to advance in a flash would be to become a permanent student at another dojo - but that's not going to happen. Despite all the things "at home" that continue to make my skin crawl with irritation and injustice, the benefits in terms of training partners, atmosphere, attitude and sheer nowledge over there have kept me coming back, and probably will for some time to come, even though there might be more (superficial, at least) appreciation to be had elsewhere.
During my last Japan visit I even told a particular Shihan that if I came home with the rank he'd recommended for me it would seem to everyone at home that the only reason I went to Japan was to get promoted (for those of you thinking I was just trying to make myself look humble, rest assured that the Shihan in question understood my predicament very well).

Someone commented to me recently that the only reason people refuse to accept rank is to make themselves look special, i.e. ego gratification.
I suppose I'm going to have to let others decide if that's the case with me, that I need that particular excuse in order to stand out.


----------



## benkyoka

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> Someone commented to me recently that the only reason people refuse to accept rank is to make themselves look special, i.e. ego gratification.




In some instances this may be the case.  However; it also could be that the person refuses rank because they don't respect/value the person offering it to them.


----------



## jks9199

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> On refusing rank...
> 
> I haven't risen through the ranks anywhere near as fast as is common in the Bujinkan nowadays. Personally (and this is only a gut feeling on my part, nothing more and nothing less) I believe that this has primarily to do with three things - 20 percent due to my tendency to ruffle feathers (however right I may be), 20 percent due to the fact that I tend to keep two or three steps ahead of current events and can sometimes have a hard time focusing on the moment, and 60 percent due to my relative absence for the last two and a half years. That is, absence from my main dojo - I've come to realize that I won't ever be able to settle for just training with one single instructor for the rest of my budo career, perhaps because out of the five particular people I never feel I get enough from, two have fairly irregular teaching schedules and three live in Japan. Adding to this is the fact that it hasn't been until now that I've felt myself to be in the position to argue for better hours with my bosses, and thus haven't always been able to make it in time throughout the same period of time.
> 
> Despite all this, I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that all I'd need to advance in a flash would be to become a permanent student at another dojo - but that's not going to happen. Despite all the things "at home" that continue to make my skin crawl with irritation and injustice, the benefits in terms of training partners, atmosphere, attitude and sheer nowledge over there have kept me coming back, and probably will for some time to come, even though there might be more (superficial, at least) appreciation to be had elsewhere.
> During my last Japan visit I even told a particular Shihan that if I came home with the rank he'd recommended for me it would seem to everyone at home that the only reason I went to Japan was to get promoted (for those of you thinking I was just trying to make myself look humble, rest assured that the Shihan in question understood my predicament very well).
> 
> Someone commented to me recently that the only reason people refuse to accept rank is to make themselves look special, i.e. ego gratification.
> I suppose I'm going to have to let others decide if that's the case with me, that I need that particular excuse in order to stand out.


 
You certainly do seem to make yourself stand out without any help by refusing rank -- if what I see on these boards is typical.

But some of your reasons for slow progress seem kind of like sour grapes-type excuses.  (Kind of like my own "they changed the rules and I don't like the new rules" since the rule change came just after I "should have been" promoted under the old method...)  Let me float a possible solution to your peripatetic training.  The Japanese shihan (or other instructors) should be able to contact your primary instructor and suggest that you be promoted.  When your primary instructor gets sufficient input from others, he can make a decision to promote you or not.  I'd personally never tell someone that they should be promoted or a certain rank; I might contact their instructor and suggest it.  After all, there may be another reason that isn't apparent in a weekend clinic or whatever scenario I evaluated them in. 

But I'm confused... what do you mean by staying "ahead of current events?"


----------



## Shicomm

> Someone commented to me recently that the only reason people refuse to accept rank is to make themselves look special, i.e. ego gratification.



Politics get in the way also...  some buyu do have the guts to come to Japan without their teacher but are too affraid of the response that they would get when returning home with a higher rank.
It happens quite often but most of the time people dont talk about it...


----------



## Cryozombie

benkyoka said:


> In some instances this may be the case. However; it also could be that the person refuses rank because they don't respect/value the person offering it to them.


 

Or that they genuinley recognize that they dont deserve the rank yet...


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Lot's of different reasons come into play.  Some are good, some are bad but eventually they fall on the persons shoulders and they have to live with their choice.


----------



## stephen

Cryozombie said:


> Or that they genuinley recognize that they dont deserve the rank yet...



Who is a student to tell his teacher that he knows best?  Sounds like this is actually a variation of benkyoka's reason; in other words, time for a new teacher.


----------



## Cryozombie

stephen said:


> Who is a student to tell his teacher that he knows best? Sounds like this is actually a variation of benkyoka's reason; in other words, time for a new teacher.


 
Maybe, but there is that whole "giving rank so the student can grow into it" thing, that I think maybe some students are/would be resistant to.  I dunno... we actually test for our ranks in my group, so I dont really know how the issue of handing out ranks works...  I was just thinking.


----------



## stephen

Cryozombie said:


> Maybe, but there is that whole "giving rank so the student can grow into it" thing, that I think maybe some students are/would be resistant to.  I dunno... we actually test for our ranks in my group, so I dont really know how the issue of handing out ranks works...  I was just thinking.




If you 'test' for ranks that just pushes the question down another level. How do you know your 'test' is really at the right level? After all. there are no guidelines from Japan.

You're just saying that you pass a test which your instructor deems appropriate to the rank you are testing for. The instructor then evaluates your performance against some standard in their head. 

What if you feel that you haven't passed the test as well as you should? Do you refuse the pass. Do you ask to be given a harder test? It's the same situation. You're telling your instructor that you know the path better than he. 

Might be true, you might know better. But, then, you shouldn't be going to his class.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

jks9199 said:


> You certainly do seem to make yourself stand out without any help by refusing rank -- if what I see on these boards is typical.


 
I'm actually not that much of a rebel with a cause, it's just that I have a problem with mixed messages.



jks9199 said:


> The Japanese shihan (or other instructors) should be able to contact your primary instructor and suggest that you be promoted.


 
Yeah, like that's not going to make me seem any more "special"...



jks9199 said:


> But I'm confused... what do you mean by staying "ahead of current events?"


 
I see a fifteen year old with a 59-Fifty tilted to the side looking at mp3 players, and I can already see myself calling the police after having relieved him/her of the stolen goods as well as a beat-up pen knife. I see someone teaching something that I know right away I'm going to encounter resistance while doing, even though it most often boils down to my over-reliance of my arms as opposed to my legs. I see the seminar instructor demonstrating some technique that has both people ending up on the ground, and I'm already mentally going through all the nasty counters I'm going to have to pull off if the 200 pound green belt with a tribal tattoo I'm training with won't let go as soon as I tap...get the picture?


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Shicomm said:


> Politics get in the way also... some buyu do have the guts to come to Japan without their teacher


 
Honestly now, I really don't understand this. Where the heck are the "guts" in doing this?



Shicomm said:


> but are too affraid of the response that they would get when returning home with a higher rank.
> It happens quite often but most of the time people dont talk about it...


 
I wouldn't say that I'm afraid, for me it's more of a matter of integrity.


----------



## jks9199

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> I see a fifteen year old with a 59-Fifty tilted to the side looking at mp3 players, and I can already see myself calling the police after having relieved him/her of the stolen goods as well as a beat-up pen knife. I see someone teaching something that I know right away I'm going to encounter resistance while doing, even though it most often boils down to my over-reliance of my arms as opposed to my legs. I see the seminar instructor demonstrating some technique that has both people ending up on the ground, and I'm already mentally going through all the nasty counters I'm going to have to pull off if the 200 pound green belt with a tribal tattoo I'm training with won't let go as soon as I tap...get the picture?


 
I suspect you also find conversations frustrating, because I suspect you're focused on how to respond to what someone is saying, instead of hearing what they say.  It's really tempting to do that, and lots of people do it, but it really hampers communication, because what often happens is that both people are so wrapped up in what they're going to say that neither is hearing what they actually are saying.  

The same thing can happen with training; you see the instructor demonstrate something that you think you know, so you're locked in on where you're going to have problems, and you miss that they're doing something slightly different.  It's also a common problem, and it's frustrating.  I've been there, on all the sides.  I've tried to teach students who were so locked into "I already know" that they couldn't see what I was doing, and I've worked with others in clinics or classes who were intent on doing their own thing because they think they "already know" the technique being demonstrated, and I've had times when I missed important details because I didn't pay attention because I "already knew" the lesson...  It helps me to remember a story from my instructor.  He'd take students or he'd go to visit his instructor, and they'd be taught the same lesson, time and time again.  It finally dawned on my teacher that if his teacher is epeating the same lesson -- they must not have it right yet.

(As to the kid with the 59-Fifty straight brim... assuming that you are basing your suspicions and subsequent observations on training and experience, that's just doing your job.  And assuming that you don't jump till he's actually done something...)


----------



## Omar B

Hey guys, great thread here.  As a karate person who's interested in eventually trying Bujinkan I'm finding out a lot here.

My question relates to what you guys are talking about regarding your master's age and the fact that there seems to be some diversion from traditional movements in students outside of his purview.  Now, this may have been covered before but I've gotta ask.  

What efforts if any are being made to document the style while he's still here with us?  I don't know the depth of the Bujinkan learning materials or what's available out there.  I would hope that they are making a concerted effort to record his every class, lecture, movement for posterity.  Hell, with modern technology his very movements can be motion captured (or the movements of a younger one of his students who he deems as having good form).  Maybe even the highest level of instructors can handle it with the master's overview/creative control.

A decline in form can be stemmed with some work but I think a big step would be to definitively lay down in text/DVD/whatever containing as much as can be imparted.  Making it an official text or teacher's manual to supplement training.

I'm just asking because I've got quite a number of books and DVDs on Kyokushin and Seido which I constantly go back to to reread, check my form against or just to look over so I don't have a slide in my own form.


----------



## stephen

Omar B said:


> Hey guys, great thread here.  As a karate person who's interested in eventually trying Bujinkan I'm finding out a lot here.





Learning about the Bujinkan on forums is like learning how to be a doctor by reading the obituaries.

As for everything else, there's more DVDs than you can shake a stick at.


----------



## Omar B

What, something against me reading a thread about it?  Your analogy doesn't work, me reading a thread about bujinkan to find out about bujinkan is a corollary, not reading the obituaries to find out about doctors.

And I was not talking about DVDs specifically, I was talking about using technology in general to preserve the art.  Notice I did mention motion capture since it's served as a great learning tool in many other places, including sports and other martial arts.


----------



## stephen

Omar B said:


> What, something against me reading a thread about it?  Your analogy doesn't work, me reading a thread about bujinkan to find out about bujinkan is a corollary, not reading the obituaries to find out about doctors.
> 
> And I was not talking about DVDs specifically, I was talking about using technology in general to preserve the art.  Notice I did mention motion capture since it's served as a great learning tool in many other places, including sports and other martial arts.




Sorry, should have included this:




Edit: I thought about it, and stand by my analogy. (The version with the happy face)


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

jks9199 said:


> I suspect you also find conversations frustrating,


 
Actually, if anything it's the other way around. I have a fairly extensive memory, so I can immediately notice when someone is contradicting him/herself.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

This past month has shown a dramatic increase in violent resistance during apprehensions around my parts. The interesting thing about it is that you learn real fast that the dynamics put into play are completely different from attack-oriented training, which is what most people do normally. In other words, you need to modify your tactics when you're no longer trying to control a person trying to fight you, but who's merely doing everything he can to get away, especially as you're not allowed to hit him before he does the same thing.


----------



## jks9199

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> This past month has shown a dramatic increase in violent resistance during apprehensions around my parts. The interesting thing about it is that you learn real fast that the dynamics put into play are completely different from attack-oriented training, which is what most people do normally. In other words, you need to modify your tactics when you're no longer trying to control a person trying to fight you, but who's merely doing everything he can to get away, especially as you're not allowed to hit him before he does the same thing.


Two comments...

First, while you have to stay within your employer's guidelines & policy, you should generally be able to use force when you can articulate that the suspect is going to attack you.  Waiting till they actually try it, or you get hit is a way to get hurt or worse...

Second, while sometimes it's just the way it goes (X-mas season, more apprehensions, more apprehensions = more arrests... or just more knuckleheads resisting), it's worth it to assess what you're doing, and see if there's anything YOU might be doing thats triggering the resistance.  For example, one day I was just generally pissed off.  EVERYONE I stopped that day gave me attitude...  But, really, they were just responding to my own attitude.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

jks9199 said:


> Two comments...
> 
> First, while you have to stay within your employer's guidelines & policy, you should generally be able to use force when you can articulate that the suspect is going to attack you. Waiting till they actually try it, or you get hit is a way to get hurt or worse...
> 
> Second, while sometimes it's just the way it goes (X-mas season, more apprehensions, more apprehensions = more arrests... or just more knuckleheads resisting), it's worth it to assess what you're doing, and see if there's anything YOU might be doing thats triggering the resistance. For example, one day I was just generally pissed off. EVERYONE I stopped that day gave me attitude... But, really, they were just responding to my own attitude.


 
This is really good advice and something you should take to hart.  Critically examine what you are doing to see if for some reason you are triggering the resistance.  I have been in the same place as jks so if you can control the elements that you can control and manipulate the situation better you may be getting less resistance when you make an arrest.  Still having worked LP a long time ago X-mas does bring out the freaks! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  Always work with over whelming numbers upon an arrest if possible!  Good luck!


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

jks9199 said:


> Two comments...
> 
> First, while you have to stay within your employer's guidelines & policy, you should generally be able to use force when you can articulate that the suspect is going to attack you. Waiting till they actually try it, or you get hit is a way to get hurt or worse...


 
I can use all the force I want as soon as he's passed the last sales point, as long as I don't punch or kick him.


----------



## tshadowchaser

WOW pretty background but a little to dark on my screen
still I like it


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Someone recently commented in all seriousness that I should consider writing for Bujinmag. Sorry, man -not gonna happen.


----------



## Bigshadow

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> Someone recently commented in all seriousness that I should consider writing for Bujinmag. Sorry, man -not gonna happen.



In all seriousness, why not?


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Bigshadow said:


> In all seriousness, why not?


 
For one thing, the same people who find me incomprehensible are the ones you'll frequently hear saying "well, what Soke means, is that..."


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Still if you feel the need you should get your opinion out there as well!


----------



## Doc_Jude

stephen said:


> Learning about the Bujinkan on forums is like learning how to be a doctor by reading the obituaries.



That's CLASSIC. I feel a new Sig coming on, or maybe a tshirt? Something to sell at Tai Kai?


----------



## Doc_Jude

jks9199 said:


> Second, while sometimes it's just the way it goes (X-mas season, more apprehensions, more apprehensions = more arrests... or just more knuckleheads resisting), it's worth it to assess what you're doing, and see if there's anything YOU might be doing thats triggering the resistance.  For example, one day I was just generally pissed off.  EVERYONE I stopped that day gave me attitude...  But, really, they were just responding to my own attitude.



I read a book called "The Seekers" about bounty hunters awhile back, found this when I tried to google for it...
"THE SEEKERS" e-book!

They speak about this very thing, how their attitude and respectful approach allowed for a high number of violence-free apprehensions. It's worth a read, though I'm not sure of the accuracy or authenticity.


----------



## Doc_Jude

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> For one thing, the same people who find me incomprehensible are the ones you'll frequently hear saying "well, what Soke means, is that..."



That crap annoys the hell outta me. Unless they know what they're talking about. Usually I only listen to Doug Wilson, Tim Bathurst, George Ohashi, Mark O'Brien, Sean Askew, Kevin Millis, Bill Atkins & the like. Not just any shmoe that wanders in and speaks a little nihongo.

*Story: *Once when I was at Ayase, one of the Japanese shihan that doesn't train with Soke very often came in and Soke called him up and to put it simply embarrassed him in general. They were doing muto dori from dai jodan, yoko aruki to evade and then step in blocking the return cut at the tsuba or hand/disarm or whatever. He must have had this guy repeat it over I don't know, 30 times or something. Everyone was embarrassed for the guy (name starts with Na-, teaches in Tokyo, you might know who I'm talking about).

Anyways, this Aussie next to me asked me what Soke was saying to the guy. I told him that Soke was telling him he should come and train more. We laughed and then some snobby Brit kicks in and admonished me on not talking unless I actually "knew what Soke was trying to convey" and then went off on this detailed woo-woo description of that last five minutes of dialog. Later at the bar, George told me that I REALLY got what Soke was saying.

"Shut Up and Train." It just never gets old, huh?


----------



## jks9199

Translation is an art in and of itself, and I suspect that's even more true while simultaneously translating dialogue, intent, and physical skills.  I know that Hatsumi has several regular translators; these people train with him frequently, and have the chance to get to know him.  They know that even though he may be saying one thing in literal translation, he's meaning something that doesn't lend itself to literal translation or even to direct translation; it's something more and different.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Doc_Jude said:


> That crap annoys the hell outta me. Unless they know what they're talking about. Usually I only listen to Doug Wilson, Tim Bathurst, George Ohashi, Mark O'Brien, Sean Askew, Kevin Millis, Bill Atkins & the like. Not just any shmoe that wanders in and speaks a little nihongo.
> 
> *Story: *Once when I was at Ayase, one of the Japanese shihan that doesn't train with Soke very often came in and Soke called him up and to put it simply embarrassed him in general. They were doing muto dori from dai jodan, yoko aruki to evade and then step in blocking the return cut at the tsuba or hand/disarm or whatever. He must have had this guy repeat it over I don't know, 30 times or something. Everyone was embarrassed for the guy (name starts with Na-, teaches in Tokyo, you might know who I'm talking about).
> 
> Anyways, this Aussie next to me asked me what Soke was saying to the guy. I told him that Soke was telling him he should come and train more. We laughed and then some snobby Brit kicks in and admonished me on not talking unless I actually "knew what Soke was trying to convey" and then went off on this detailed woo-woo description of that last five minutes of dialog. Later at the bar, George told me that I REALLY got what Soke was saying.
> 
> "Shut Up and Train." It just never gets old, huh?


 
Hey Doc definately some good people on your list!


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

*Here is my rant for the day:*  A high ranking Budo Taijutsu practitioner actually was rude emailing one of my practitioners who makes absolutely great fukuro shinai which you can see at my website store.  What he said was that he would not buy them because they were crap because they *were not* Tombo fukuro shinai.  Note this person has never seen the quality of my students work and has no idea what they are like or what he is talking about!  End of the rant!

Note I like Tim Bathurst's Tombo Weapons line and have bought them in the past!  Still the market is big enough for more than one high quality manufacture of quality fukuro shinai!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




*The motto is: Do not talk about something that you know nothing about!!!*


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## Kreth

Brian R. VanCise said:


> *The motto is: Do not talk about something that you know nothing about!!!*


But then most of the megadans would have nothing to talk about... :uhoh:


----------



## Bigshadow

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Still if you feel the need you should get your opinion out there as well!



Absolutely!


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## Bigshadow

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Note I like Tim Bathurst's Tombo Weapons line and have bought them in the past!  Still the market is big enough for more than one high quality manufacture of quality fukuro shinai!!!




Definitely!  I like Tim's training weapons also, but as you say, there is certainly an available market for them here.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Still if you feel the need you should get your opinion out there as well!


 
Sure, why don't we rename this thread "GEB's whining blog"? Heh.

The way I see it, people like the snobby Brit mentioned above are the ones Bujinmag primarily caters to.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit

BTW - "shut up and train" is an evil, lethargic, hypocritical myth.

That's a forum signature or t-shirt material for you.


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## Bigshadow

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> The way I see it, people like the snobby Brit mentioned above are the ones Bujinmag primarily caters to.




It is unfortunate you see it that way.   I enjoy Bujinmag and I am neither snobby or British, go figure


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## Grey Eyed Bandit

You'll find something very interesting if you take a look at George Ohashi's page right now...


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## Doc_Jude

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> You'll find something very interesting if you take a look at George Ohashi's page right now...



Is that supposed to be SOKE'S SON!?!

WHEN DID THAT HAPPEN??? Does he train? Secret Ninja Son? ^_^


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## Bigshadow

I saw that on Friday and was a little surprised.  I had always thought he had no children.


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## Brian R. VanCise

It is the boy now a man who played soke's son on the TV show Jiriya.  So he is an actor friend.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit

Brian R. VanCise said:


> It is the boy now a man who played soke's son on the TV show Jiriya. So he is an actor friend.


 
So you're telling me he's adopted? :eye-popping:


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## Bigshadow

Brian R. VanCise said:


> It is the boy now a man who played soke's son on the TV show Jiriya.  So he is an actor friend.




HAHAHA  What a twist of words!  LOL Great!  Lost in translation!


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## Brian R. VanCise

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> So you're telling me he's adopted? :eye-popping:


 
No, just that he played his son on Jiriya and that is it from what I have heard!


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## Grey Eyed Bandit

Why do people you meet for the first time insist on always asking how long you've been training?

I really don't believe that people ask that for any other real reason but to determine how lenient they can be with the fact that you suck.


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## stephen

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> Why do people you meet for the first time insist on always asking how long you've been training?
> 
> I really don't believe that people ask that for any other real reason but to determine how lenient they can be with the fact that you suck.



So, what's wrong with that reason? 


But seriously, if I'm training with someone who is very good in a short time I'm going to want to know how they've done it so I can do it too.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit

stephen said:


> So, what's wrong with that reason?


 
Primarily the fact that it's not fair. Everyone performs worse outside their own dojo.



stephen said:


> But seriously, if I'm training with someone who is very good in a short time I'm going to want to know how they've done it so I can do it too.


 
You can't do it too, because he doesn't live anywhere near you.


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## shesulsa

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> Why do people you meet for the first time insist on always asking how long you've been training?
> 
> I really don't believe that people ask that for any other real reason but to determine how lenient they can be with the fact that you suck.


I think it's called an "ice breaker."


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## stephen

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> Primarily the fact that it's not fair. Everyone performs worse outside their own dojo.



I'm not interested in 'fair'. It's not some sort of game. I do know, however, that someone with 20 years training is less likely to do something stupidly dangerous than someone training 1 year. Both of these people can be wearing black belts, but I'll treat the latter differently. 




Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> You can't do it too, because he doesn't live anywhere near you.



This was a hypothetical person, so you don't know where he lives is relation to me. However, I've been known to visit teachers on the other side of the world, wherever this hypothetical teacher is, I can either go to him; have him in for a seminar at my place; or just be sure to get to all of his seminars. I'll make it work. It's much harder to find the right people to train with then it is to get to them. The only way to get good at this stuff is to find a way to make it work. 

Ok, lets pretent this hypo. teacher is in some strange black hole that I can't get to. I'll train with you then. If you've been training half as long  are twice as good I'll travel to you AND buy you a beer afterward, 'cause you clearly have a more efficient way of looking at things.


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## stephen

shesulsa said:


> I think it's called an "ice breaker."




I don't use it as an icebreaker, I ask to get a guess of who I'm training with. It's a bad proxy, but it's better than nothing. 

My icebreaker is always the same. An extended hand and, "Hi, I'm Stephen."


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## Bigshadow

stephen said:


> I don't use it as an icebreaker, I ask to get a guess of who I'm training with. It's a bad proxy, but it's better than nothing.



You could forgo the question and just offer to be uke first.  IMO how they move and deal with the attack, tells me almost all I need to know.



stephen said:


> My icebreaker is always the same. An extended hand and, "Hi, I'm Stephen."



Yep, that works.


----------



## stephen

Bigshadow said:


> You could forgo the question and just offer to be uke first.  IMO how they move and deal with the attack, tells me almost all I need to know.




Ya', I do that too. I don't ask everyone I train with, I usually only ask after I've been uke if I have reason to worry that someone may be a bit new, or if they seem exceptionally good.

Clearly, you have to read the situaiton enough so that you don't come off as a jerk. That's not the point. Training is about tori and uke helping each other get better. Sometimes the answer to that question can help, don't ask in the situations where it can hurt. 

Just like anything else, as one of those teachers that I'll gladly cross the globe to train with is fond of saying, "case by case."


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## Grey Eyed Bandit

stephen said:


> I'm not interested in 'fair'. It's not some sort of game.


 
I've personally been both written off as a worthless idiot and praised as a prodigy, all depending on the environment.



stephen said:


> I can either go to him; have him in for a seminar at my place; or just be sure to get to all of his seminars. I'll make it work.


 
If you'll put in that much effort to make it work you'd be different from pretty much everyone else. I tip my flexfit to you if you were to succeed, though I doubt it.



stephen said:


> It's much harder to find the right people to train with then it is to get to them.


 
I think this needs to be elaborated upon... 



stephen said:


> Ok, lets pretent this hypo. teacher is in some strange black hole that I can't get to. I'll train with you then. If you've been training half as long are twice as good I'll travel to you AND buy you a beer afterward, 'cause you clearly have a more efficient way of looking at things.



Good, that's one person saved. Problem is, you seemed reasonable enough before, so I don't see what good it's really done.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit

Bigshadow said:


> You could forgo the question and just offer to be uke first. IMO how they move and deal with the attack, tells me almost all I need to know.


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## Bigshadow

stephen said:


> Ya', I do that too. I don't ask everyone I train with, I usually only ask after I've been uke if I have reason to worry that someone may be a bit new, or if they seem exceptionally good.
> 
> Clearly, you have to read the situaiton enough so that you don't come off as a jerk. That's not the point. Training is about tori and uke helping each other get better. Sometimes the answer to that question can help, don't ask in the situations where it can hurt.
> 
> Just like anything else, as one of those teachers that I'll gladly cross the globe to train with is fond of saying, "case by case."



Absolutely! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  It is all about helping each other.  The ego is a funny thing.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit

Bigshadow said:


> Absolutely!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is all about helping each other.


 
Most of the points I'm trying to get across in this thread revolve around the fact that that isn't always how it works in actuality.


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## Bigshadow

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> Most of the points I'm trying to get across in this thread revolve around the fact that that isn't always how it works in actuality.



That is true!  I am sure there are folks who would do precisely what you said.  Although it may be insulting when one of these people ask in that manner, but the way I see it that is a personal obstacle they will eventually have to deal with or their own personal budo will suffer.  I think this is just another example of why a budoka should have a good heart!


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## stephen

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> If you'll put in that much effort to make it work you'd be different from pretty much everyone else. I tip my flexfit to you if you were to succeed, though I doubt it.




Not different than the people I train with.


Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> I think this needs to be elaborated upon...



See above.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit

Bigshadow said:


> but the way I see it that is a personal obstacle they will eventually have to deal with or their own personal budo will suffer. I think this is just another example of why a budoka should have a good heart!


 
Now you're doing it again...


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## Grey Eyed Bandit

stephen said:


> Not different than the people I train with.


 
Different from most of the Bujinkan.


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## Kreth

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> Different from most of the Bujinkan.


Yeah, we get it, you're a prodigy, or something.


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## stephen

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> Different from most of the Bujinkan.



Why does it matter what 51% of the Bujinkan does? 'The Bujinkan', in my opinion, is not really an organization - it's a person. Or, maybe to get all whoo-whoo for a second, it's a _bufu_. 

I think this might be, sorta, what Soke means when he has said that after godan we are all his students. It doesn't mean that I go implying on my website that I've been training 2 feet away from him for the last x years. I think it means that my responsibility and loyalities should lie with this narrowly-understood definition of 'The Bujinkan'. That's a hell of a lot less people to be worried about what they're doing and what they think of what I'm doing. 

That being said, I think there's a bit from Doug's blog which, I think, is right on target here: 


			
				Henka Blog said:
			
		

> I truly realized that Bujinkan is made up of many interesting people.  Each person has strengths to bring to the table.  We will all have our strengths and will all have our weakness, this is natural.  However, we must be aware that things become out of control when strengths are exploited and weakness are ignored. Think about this.



( http://henka.wordpress.com/ )


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## Grey Eyed Bandit

Kreth said:


> Yeah, we get it, you're a prodigy, or something.


 
No, and I'm not about to move to Japan to train with the people I'd like to train with the most either. If stephen is serious about that kind of dedication then kudos to him.

BTW, that was uncalled for.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit

stephen said:


> Why does it matter what 51% of the Bujinkan does?


 
It matters to me. Here's why.

I would really love to be able to at any time choose a random person in Hombu, at a seminar or anywhere else to train with, and be able to rest assured that that person won't **** me over based on his own fear- or machismo-based inadequacies, and who'll allow me to walk away from there with a smile on my face and the knowledge that I've become better than I was 90 minutes ago. I've met both great people with lousy taijutsu, and some very skilled people that at times have had me considering lying in wait for them with a scoped rifle. 

I don't want to use the term "good heart", so I'm just going to say that most asshats have on thing in common - the fact that they've already made up their minds (i.e. "taijutsu needs to be complemented with kickboxing, and since no one is going to let you perform a technique on him IRL I might as well try to fight back all the time while training too").

Now you may be less of a dreamer than I and as such more accustomed to the fact that none of this is going to change anytime soon (again, kudos to you for that), but don't try to tell me that you wouldn't appreciate it as well.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit

BTW - I don't have anything to bring to the table. :idunno:


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## Bigshadow

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> Now you're doing it again...



What did I do? :idunno:  Was I too philosophical?


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

On the recent Human Weapon episode, which I haven't seen yet but heard plenty about...



Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> I honestly cannot understand why a 15th dan would say to a kyu ranked person "if you can't understand this, you're going to be headed in the wrong direction in regards to what Hatsumi sensei is teaching".


 
The kyu ranked person referred to in this case was me. The 15th dan (well, I'm not 100 percent sure he was 15th at the time, but whatever) person is a resident of Japan. This happened a few years ago.

The subject matter we discussed that led him to utter the above quote was the prospect of being able to throw a sword at your opponent, so that you're not fixating on the weapon you have. :wavey:


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Having now looked through the Human Weapon ninjutsu episode several times, two things stuck in my memory. One was the face of Noguchi as the camera zoomed in on him, and the other was the tendency of everyone involved to lean forward with their upper bodies under stress.

Now, onto the next issue.
It's time to kill off another myth - the one that there's nothing to be gained from training with people who haven't been visiting Japan recently. No, they won't be focusing on the same things as the people in Honbu are doing at the moment. No, it's not very well looked upon. And the cost/benefit ratio may be too high for most higher-ups - assuming they have their kihon in order, of course. But a lot of the times they will very much be able to teach mere mortals like myself a whole lot of interesting stuff that we'd probably have missed out on otherwise. Things that, in the long run, will enable us to understand the things Hatsumi & co are trying to bring across these days, likely even better than those who've never experienced them. Of course I'll also freely admit that it shouldn't have to be this way.

On a related note...

We've probably all heard our instructors speak on the importance of taking responsibility for your own training. But there's another side to the coin the way I see it, and that's the idea of accepting that you may have missed out on certain things. For instance, having witnessed a pot lid being turned into an instrument of violence, and not being in the least amused or even creatively inspired by the episode, I deducted that that particular training environment didn't have very much left to keep me interested. I'm fully aware of the fact that this means a great loss on my part, but so has my decision not to become a permanent resident of Japan. For me it's simply not worth having the Japanese Bujinkan environment mess with my head constantly just so that I can be constantly up to date - I've spoken before on what I believe those Sunday morning sessions with Hatsumi can do with your perspective on the general status of the Bujinkan if you don't mix it up a bit.

Having said that, I would much rather see someone having an epileptic seizure in Honbu than I'd like to be stopped by the cops twice in Roppongi whilst looking for a nightclub that apparently doesn't exist anymore.


----------



## Shicomm

Amen to that about a million times...  

As for human weapon ; it should be havin' an intro screen that says "for entertainment purposes only... " 
But even so ; it sucked as a documentary ( seems that only the British can do that really good ) and it sucked as a 'show' also...

***

It seems btw that some graphic designer made a little mistake...


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## Grey Eyed Bandit

I thought I'd take some time out and relay the incident in which I was forced to use my baton for the first time.

It was around 4.30 PM and I noticed a pretty big (though not huge), muscular, bald headed guy stuffing a remote control inside his pants. I proceeded to confront him outside the store, upon which he gave it back to me and continued to walk away. I then told him that we could be a little bit discreet and go back inside and talk about it, or I could call the police right away. He apparently had no problem with me calling the police, and so I called for backup from my uniformed colleagues. Right then he decided to take off running - luckily I was faster and managed to get in front of him and put my arm to his chest telling him to back up.
At that moment he proceeded to grab my jacket and tried to kick me in the groin- luckily I had time to turn enough for his kick to hit just below my right hip instead. I managed to distance myself from him by shoving with my left arm and moving backward ichimonji-stylee, and at the same time I drew my baton which I carry tip up on my right side in a velcro holster. Since he moved in on me again I felt I had no choice but to let him have it, and so proceeded to strike him maybe three or four times about the right arm and both of his thighs. Noticing the look in his eyes as well as his reaction to my pretty solid hits, I for the first time realized he was probably pretty doped up, and he took off running once more, only to stop after a while trying to attack me again, upon which I swung at his thighs about three times more. 

This was right outside an open subway station, and he proceeded to walk straight in and walked on the oncoming train. Since I was alone, didn't know whether he was packing or not and with regards to his size, I decided not to try to grapple with him and simply kept my distance with the baton in ready position whilst following him onto the train with a (strangely enough) completely silent crowd watching me from all directions. Right at that point the uniformed guards came running, and seeing as they knew the guy from before he simply stood up and walked back calmly.

Even though the patdown revealed a knife, there had apparently been no need for me to worry about him pulling it - the first hit I scored on his lower arm had caused it to swell incredibly, with the bone poking out at a strange angle from underneath the skin. When the cops showed up however, I quickly found out they weren't really hip to the recent developments in the security business. They asked me what business I had carrying an expandable baton whilss working plainclothes, and so I told them that guards like me have been able to since late 2006, provided they had proper certification and their employer's authorization - which, needless to say, I have. Even so, they decided to seize my baton for the time being while investigating my claims on being legally allowed to carry one, and since I was apparently the primary suspect under investigation for the time being, I wasn't even allowed to report an assault on a public servant, which otherwise is SOP every time we encounter violence.

The perp was starting to look pale from his injured arm, and so they had to rush him to a hospital. Of course I called both my bosses who commended me on a job well done whilst assuring they'd let the police know I had their permission to carry. 90 minutes later however, the same two cops showed up again, handed me back my baton and apologized for their misunderstanding. Right after that they proceeded to let me file the report on the assault, but it still left a sour aftertaste in my mouth that I had been under suspicion just a while earlier. For those who believe I may have erred on the side of excessive force, I have to say that groin kicks and elbows to the head from my side would definitely have been regarded as such - the very reason we carry batons is so that we won't have to hit people with our bare hands and feet.

(Note - there is a common misunderstanting that the ASP baton is designed to break bones cleanly, as opposed to rubber batons which have a tendency to shatter bones and crush tendons and ligaments. The thought behind the ASP is that hitting large muscles with the ball-shaped tip will cut right through them and temporarily shut off the blood supply, causing the arm or leg to lose power and bend under itself. I can now say that I found out the hard way that that isn't always how it works out, at least not on people under influence.)


----------



## Obi Wan Shinobi

Hey Bandit what state did that happen at?


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Myth: "You get the teacher you deserve."

Sorry, peeps. There is no justice when it comes to that.


----------



## Doc_Jude

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> Myth: "You get the teacher you deserve."
> 
> Sorry, peeps. There is no justice when it comes to that.



I believe it.


----------



## stephen

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> Myth: "You get the teacher you deserve."
> 
> Sorry, peeps. There is no justice when it comes to that.





It is pure justice. Someone who's not willing nor bright enough to seek out and find the best does not deserve a great teachers time, they have other students to worry about who do.

There's an entitlement epidemic in the world today, everyone thinks they deserve everything and everyone should have equality of outcome rather than equality of opportunity.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

stephen said:


> It is pure justice. Someone who's not willing nor bright enough to seek out and find the best does not deserve a great teachers time, they have other students to worry about who do.


 
You're totally missing the point. I could go on for hours about people who have a whole lot more than they deserve. Depending on how you look at it, I myself could qualify as one of them.



stephen said:


> There's an entitlement epidemic in the world today, everyone thinks they deserve everything and everyone should have equality of outcome rather than equality of opportunity.


 
Newsflash - there is neither in the Bujinkan.


----------



## benkyoka

stephen said:


> It is pure justice. Someone who's not willing nor bright enough to seek out and find the best does not deserve a great teachers time, they have other students to worry about who do.



Who defines 'best'?


----------



## stephen

benkyoka said:


> Who defines 'best'?




I do.


I'm talking about my training, which means I'm either deciding for myself or trusting someone I've decided to trust. Which, in both cases pretty much results in me making the call, even if by proxy.


----------



## stephen

stephen said:


> I do.
> 
> 
> I'm talking about my training, which means I'm either deciding for myself or trusting someone I've decided to trust. Which, in both cases pretty much results in me making the call, even if by proxy.





Too late to edit - Addendum:

...So it's better to step up and take responsibility for myself now rather than pretend it's someone else's or the world's fault.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

stephen said:


> ...So it's better to step up and take responsibility for myself now rather than pretend it's someone else's or the world's fault.


 
So by your definition, the environment in which the girls in Prussian Blue were brought up has had zero effect on their political stances?


----------



## stephen

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> So by your definition, the environment in which the girls in Prussian Blue were brought up has had zero effect on their political stances?



Straw man.

In any case, I'm pretty sure I can guess which attitude will lead to more success in anything and everything. 

Additionally, isn't it kinda...well..._ninpo-ish_ to see what the winds bring and try to catch them in your sails?


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

stephen said:


> Straw man.


 
Nope, the principle is exactly the same. You can't expect people to make informed choices when they don't have anything to compare their current situation with.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Last training someone asked me what I've been up to recently since I hadn't been present for a while. I answered "that's nobody here's business but mine". 
The response I got was a threat to be physically thrown out from the place.


----------



## stephen

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> Last training someone asked me what I've been up to recently since I hadn't been present for a while. I answered "that's nobody here's business but mine".
> The response I got was a threat to be physically thrown out from the place.




Wow. It's been a while since the rant thread's been going. So....what've yo...

Oh, never mind.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

I'm considering pressing charges.


----------

