# Japaneese taboos...



## Satt (Dec 4, 2004)

I am personally curious, what are some Japaneese/Bujinkan taboos I should watch out for? What would be considered rude or wrong to ask or talk about here? I just want to know so I don't offend in the future when I post. Thanks in advance.


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## Mountain Kusa (Dec 4, 2004)

Talking about what will happen after someones demise before they pass is pretty serious. But remember, you nor I are Japanese, therefor our customs are different. However, the Japanese tend to be very polite and will never discuss bad things on a public forum, espeacially if it is something that should remain Quiet. Someone that has been to japan could probably tell you more, I only know some things I have heard. When we meet in person I will tell you some things that should never be posted or talked about on a public forum.


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## Satt (Dec 4, 2004)

I just wanted to say thanks to whoever dinged me with this comment...

"We are out of silver platters, will you take paper? In other words, do some research yourself."

...you have really shown me how stupid I am to ask questions on a forum. Just for all those people I keep offending somehow, I will no longer post on the "Ninjutsu" or "Traditional" forum. Thank you Mountain Kusa for your time and patience on the traditional side of things. Thanks to gmunoz, Limeydog, and Enson for being nice to me when I was searching for answers. Just as a side note, I have allways asked questions in a kind and humble manner. If you were offended, sorry. Have a nice life.


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## Jay Bell (Dec 4, 2004)

I'm confused....who were you offending?


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## Bob Hubbard (Dec 4, 2004)

Y'know....good question there Jay.  I didn't see anything wrong about his question here...I mean, the dinger said "Do research"...well, that was what he was doing.

Hell, I'd like to know some of this myself.


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## GAB (Dec 4, 2004)

Hi,

Well with that type of comment it ought to be researched by the man in the red cape, and find out who this enlighted person is and give them a little taste..

Satt, don't go there. Hang in there you will survive, it is the other who is missing the point of all this...:jedi1: 

I want to say something here and no offense ment. I have been doing some research, (when I was on Vacation).

There are hundreds and hundreds, several thousand that use this board yet only about 5% are supporting members. 

We need to change this and get more people helping out, I am not trying to save my behind here. Wellllll:idunno: 

I am saying if you want a good board like this and the Admin wanting to particapate and also learn, then you need to support this group. 

For good or bad I make my own decisions and no one else is to blame.
But I think it is pretty appaling to have this good board and not that many are supporters... 

Come on people lets change that.artyon:

My humble opinion, I have been trying for a good time and way to bring this up, and I have in my opinion found the right time.

Regards, Gary


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Dec 4, 2004)

http://www.geocities.com/japanfaq/FAQ-Manners.html

http://www.thejapanfaq.com/FAQ-Primer.html


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## Kizaru (Dec 4, 2004)

Satt said:
			
		

> What would be considered rude or wrong to ask or talk about here? I just want to know so I don't offend in the future when I post. Thanks in advance.


I thought that the stuff posted here: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17457&page=1&pp=15

was pretty good; especially "proper care and feeding of translators". In addition, I feel that asking direct, personal questions of people before you really know them is not a good idea. Leaving trash inside, in front of, next to or on top of the Honbu dojo is not good. There's no trash can at the Honbu, and maybe there's a reason for that. I think it's interesting that people are coming to Japan to train in "ninjutsu" and are leaving evidence that they were there in the form of heaps of trash...real stealthy....anyway, there are plenty of books on Japanese culture out there that you can read up on, but there are some points about dojo etiquette that may not be out there. The best place to learn that would be in a dojo, but I think due to jet lag, some people forget these things. Like:

* Watch out for the kamidana. Make sure you know how long the weapon is you're using so you don't accidently smack something off of the kamidana.

* Don't lean on the walls, that's considered rude.

* You shouldn't stand with your arms folded across your chest, people used to conceal weapons that way.

* When bowing in, senior students sit to the far right in the front. It may be difficult to figure this out at the honbu with big groups of people from all over, but the Japanese shihan probably outrank you, and in the smaller private dojos, who sits where should be easier to figure out. 

* Asking about how to do Kuji or where the "secret training on the golf course" during the first time you train might not be the best idea. (Might not be a good idea during your 2nd, 3rd or 4th times training either). 

* At some dojo, students wipe down the floors after training. It's okay if you want to pick up a rag or a broom and help out.

As far as what not to talk about on the internet, if you think it would cause a problem, best not to ask it. If it's derogatory or inflammatory, maybe that should be avoided as well. If you need to ask, ask someone in person or by private message and don't get angry if the answer you get isn't what you were expecting.


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## RRouuselot (Dec 4, 2004)

Mountain Kusa said:
			
		

> Talking about what will happen after someones demise before they pass is pretty serious. But remember, you nor I are Japanese, therefor our customs are different. However, the Japanese tend to be very polite and will never discuss bad things on a public forum, espeacially if it is something that should remain Quiet. Someone that has been to japan could probably tell you more, I only know some things I have heard. When we meet in person I will tell you some things that should never be posted or talked about on a public forum.


 
   Not true.

   There are tons of websites in Japanese where very bad things are discussed.there are even TV shows that will have re-enactments of family problems like cheating spouses, mother-in-laws that boss their daughter-in-laws around like slaves, etc. 

   As for Japanese being polite well it all depends on what the situation is, who you are and what they need or dont need from you.

   Anyone that lives in Japan that ever went to the old Tokyo Immigration Office can tell you what Japanese are like when they want to be rude. 

   Japanese politeness is perfunctory at best. Dont be fooled by the grinning and bowing they do.. some times they might be thinking why dont you kiss my *** you smelly gaijin lump of dung. I guy I used to work with hated foreigners, however whenever he met one or had to deal with one he was all smiles and bowing.


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## Cryozombie (Dec 4, 2004)

Satt said:
			
		

> I just wanted to say thanks to whoever dinged me with this comment...


 Dude dont sweat it... people have dinged me for stupid stupid stupid stuff.

 I got a rep ding once for Talking about a former hapkido practitioner, and saying his background was in hapkido... and I was dinged and told not to bring up hapkido! 

 Its all silly.  Of course, for a small donation you could become a supporting member and turn your rep off... THAT'LL teach em.  Hehe.


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## Mountain Kusa (Dec 4, 2004)

Jason,

No-one wants you to leave, You have asked some very valid questions and i have no doubt when you get here you will have many more. I encourage them. You have enthusiasm.

Everything in this art is a learning experience. It may come in the form of learning proper respect for a higher ranked (or not)or a better skilled person. Some people have to learn the hard way by getting slammed to the ground a couple of times before they get that. Other times people are shunned until they learn a mental lesson. The point I am trying to make, wanting to learn is its own pleasure or pain. Some of us are better at things than others. 

You have not had formal training around other individuals, so it is hard to know that what happens in a dojo also happens here. There is a lot of respect that goes here between the lines. A sure way to lose respect is by getting mad and leaving. There will be times in the training when you will think someone is trying to kill you and the pain will be excruciating. But when it is over you will have learned something or not. The choice is yours as always.

This art is about choices, nobody expects a person to be perfect, but all teachers want the best for their students, even when they are having a hard time and learning the hard way, but all teachers want their students to learn. Sometimes, learning the hard way provides for the better lesson.


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## Mountain Kusa (Dec 4, 2004)

Jason, here is something else that may help you to understand what is most important.

There was a student that approached a master for training. After discussing the style and what was expected, the student asked the master how long will it be before i get to black belt?

The master replied" if you train well and with a proper heart it will be about five years or so, but that depends on you."

The student replied, " what if i train twice as hard?"

The master replied "Ten years."

The confused student pondered this and said, What if i give up everything I do, and train every day, how long will it take?"

The master replied, "a lifetime."

Ponder this well.


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## RRouuselot (Dec 4, 2004)

Jason, 

 I wouldn't worry about the "ding" a lot of people here will "ding" someone for the dumbest reasons.....hell half the time they won't even give a reason. 

 Your questions are valid and unless you ask you won't learn. At least you asked....some folks just assume they know but actually don't.
 There are a number of people on MT that live in Japan aand have been long term residents here. I have no doubt you can get several perspectives for any question about Japan.


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## RRouuselot (Dec 4, 2004)

Mountain Kusa said:
			
		

> Jason, here is something else that may help you to understand what is most important.
> 
> There was a student that approached a master for training. After discussing the style and what was expected, the student asked the master how long will it be before i get to black belt?
> 
> ...


 Actually that is a famous story about a zen master and prospective student.......but the idea is the same.


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## Don Roley (Dec 4, 2004)

Mountain Kusa said:
			
		

> Everything in this art is a learning experience. It may come in the form of learning proper respect for a higher ranked (or not)or a better skilled person. Some people have to learn the hard way by getting slammed to the ground a couple of times before they get that. Other times people are shunned until they learn a mental lesson. The point I am trying to make, wanting to learn is its own pleasure or pain. Some of us are better at things than others.
> 
> You have not had formal training around other individuals, so it is hard to know that what happens in a dojo also happens here. There is a lot of respect that goes here between the lines. A sure way to lose respect is by getting mad and leaving. There will be times in the training when you will think someone is trying to kill you and the pain will be excruciating. But when it is over you will have learned something or not. The choice is yours as always.
> 
> This art is about choices, nobody expects a person to be perfect, but all teachers want the best for their students, even when they are having a hard time and learning the hard way. But all teachers want their students to learn. Sometimes, learning the hard way provides for the better lesson.



Jason,
I think you should listen to the above. In fact, I think you should reconsider if martial arts and the Bujinkan are really for you. This art is not for everyone. And while martialarts do provide benifits for people who take them, you have to be the right type of person to achieve those gains.

Take a look at this post and then compare it with the drama you raise over a bad reputation ding. I honestly don't think you can survive the type of training that I talked about if you get as worked up as you are over this matter.

And that is not the only thing. Consider the fact that you have not set foot in a real dojo yet and you have 168 posts already. You did not even know where the patch goes on the uniform until this week and you are already saying that you are going to be a teacher someday. You have not been shown the san shin and you went out and got a green belt. And the list goes on.

Honestly, with the attitude I see from you, I know you are not going to be around in five years. You may want to reconsider your plans for studying martial arts, or you attitude and outlook of life.

Let us take a look at this matter. You want to know about Japanese taboos. Well, entire books have been written about the matter. Many of them can be found in your local library. So, why didn't you stop by one before you asked people to take time away from other activities to answer your questions? This relates to what I have seen here in Japan. There _is indeed_ such a thing as a stupid question. The Japanese do not seem to have any great love or respect for people that will not try to seek answers for themselves and instead need to be spoon- fed knowledge. In some areas, they would rather you ask them to correct and give guidance rather than provide everything laid out on the table.

This may be a harsh lesson. But I seen your type time after time in the years I have been in this art. No one who has acted like you and not changed their attitude is still around. You may be offended by what I say, but I cannot honestly help you by patting your hand and telling you that things will be ok. You need to hear this unpleasent truth. I still say that five years from now, you will probably not be involved at all in this art. But this is the best I can do to try to help you.


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## gmunoz (Dec 4, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Jason,
> I think you should listen to the above. In fact, I think you should reconsider if martial arts and the Bujinkan are really for you. This art is not for everyone. And while martialarts do provide benifits for people who take them, you have to be the right type of person to achieve those gains.
> 
> Take a look at this post and then compare it with the drama you raise over a bad reputation ding. I honestly don't think you can survive the type of training that I talked about if you get as worked up as you are over this matter.
> ...


Jason,

Don't listen to any of the naysayers say you can't do this.  You can do anything you put your mind, heart, and soul to.  Keep up your training!


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## Kizaru (Dec 5, 2004)

gmunoz said:
			
		

> Jason,
> 
> Don't listen to any of the naysayers say you can't do this.


Interesting. I didn't see anything in Don Roley's post that said Satt couldn't do something, rather that if he continued doing what he's doing now, he "probably" wouldn't be in this art in five years. 

I don't see Don Roley as a "naysayer" here. Someone with less experience than Don Roley might see this as a snub or as an "unmotivating statement". I don't see it that way at all. Rather than being politically correct and dancing around, he's giving someone some good advice for success in a very direct and unadulterated fashion to avoid miscommunication.  

"If you ask a question, don't be disappointed if the answer isn't what you expected."


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## Don Roley (Dec 5, 2004)

Dealt with this issue here. And I note with humor that gmunoz dinged me for negative points while Satt gave me positve with a  message thanking me for my honesty.

 :2xBird2: 

I stand ready to be the guy that speaks the truth even if it makes me seem like a demon. I have been through basic training in the army and they never patted me on the hand when I was in the dumps. I still believe it was the best thing to happen to me as a person. I would not give up what I experienced in the Ft Benning school for boys for a million dollars even thought I would not put myself through that hell for the same amount. Sometimes you need a friend to let you cry on your shoulder. I have both been the shoulder and the crier. At other times you need someone to kick you in the **** to bring you back in line. I have been both the foot and the ****. I still think that Jason needs to re-examine what he does. But I can sleep the sleep of the just tonight knowing that I seem to have done some good based on what he has said to me.


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## Kizaru (Dec 5, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> I would not give up what I experienced in the Ft Benning school for boys for a million dollars even thought I would not put myself through that hell for the same amount.


:iws:


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## Satt (Dec 5, 2004)

Actually, now that I think about it, my Navy "boot camp" could more accurately have been called a "school for boys." No joke. The Navy concentrates more on mental tear down than physical. LOL.


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## Don Roley (Dec 5, 2004)

Satt said:
			
		

> Actually, now that I think about it, my Navy "boot camp" could more accurately have been called a "school for boys." No joke. The Navy concentrates more on mental tear down than physical. LOL.



And I assume you feel you came out the better for it? Of course, trying to compare _navy_  :barf: basic training with a _real_ military's basic training is a little off topic. hee hee hee.

But you understand how the biggest challenges you face will not be the ones placed on your body, but on your spirit. I remember being dropped for pushups and hating it. It was not because of the ache in my muscles, but the shame I felt in letting down my unit and ultimatly myself that caused me grief. By comparison, I remember one time when we were begging the West Point plebe to drop us in the rain and mud so that we could show our spirit by chanting, "we love the rain- ONE!" This was right after we had done a dance in the tear gas chamber.

Guess what, it is the same in taijutsu. You will get hit in the face and other parts of your body. I got a kyoketsu shoge shoved into my back with enough force to give my muscle spasms today at a demonstration. That is nothing. It is facing the fact that you are not being as good as you can, that you are letting down people that have put so much time into helping you that will bother you at night and not let you sleep. That is, _if you are the type of person caring about._ 

Are you?

Don't tell me, show me. Let me know with your actions instead of trying to get on my good side with what you say. You know how people have tried to explain away their mistakes and failings to the drill instructors. Did they ever get any better? Or was it a wiser choice to shut up and just show this pompus, ignorant, unfeeling son- of- a- she- dog that you would do better no matter how much they screamed at you?


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## Satt (Dec 5, 2004)

Oh yeah, by the way, NAVY BEAT ARMY YESTERDAY!!!!!!! LOL. :2xBird2:


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## Don Roley (Dec 5, 2004)

Satt said:
			
		

> Oh yeah, by the way, NAVY BEAT ARMY YESTERDAY!!!!!!! LOL. :2xBird2:




I hate football anyways.


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## sojobow (Dec 5, 2004)

gmunoz said:
			
		

> Jason,
> 
> Don't listen to any of the naysayers say you can't do this. You can do anything you put your mind, heart, and soul to. Keep up your training!


This is the best advice yet for Jason.  I would only ad that as a student, keep your spine straight and don't back off or bow down to anyone.  Respect your Sensei and cut the rest twice when confronted wrongly as you have been in this thread.

If you have questions or concerns, post them.  It is our choice to answer if we so incline or don't answer if we have no answer.  Think I read a Soke stating that he'd cut god if god got in the way (or something like that).  Stop apologizing.  You did nothing wrong.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Dec 5, 2004)

No, you saw it in Kill Bill.


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## Bester (Dec 5, 2004)

Well, since the subject is Japanese Taboos (and not the porno movie at that....)

 I got this a while ago in my email.  How true is this long winding message? 

 =
 Realfighting Newsletter #46 - August 29, 2004​ 

*Some Things to Know Before you travel to  Japan*​ 

Japan is  a fun place to visit, theres no place on earth remotely like it, its like  going to a giant theme park, theres always something interesting to see or do.  Whether you go for vacation or training, it can be a very unique and rewarding  experience. For those interested in fight training, there are of course  traditional martial arts schools, but for the serious fight student, there are  many top-tier No-Holds-Barred (NHB) training centers that prepare fighters for  Pride, Shooto, the UFC and other similar  venues. 



Although  Japan looks like  any other civilized western city, dont let this facade fool you. Just because  Japanese wear western clothes, manufacture western products and are enveloped in  high-technology doesnt mean their sensibilities and social structure is the  same as ours, on the contrary, the Japanese are completely different than any  other social group in the world, even among other Asians. Why is knowing this so  important? Because in  Japan, like no  other place, knowing the rules can determine the quality of your visit -- it can  open doors for you or slam them in your face. 



I have visited and  lived in Japan multiple times and recount my frustrations here in an effort to  save others the annoying and confusing maze I had to wade through. The following  discourse is in no way a comprehensive work on the Japanese and their society,  but merely an overall guide to assist visitors in making sense of a baffling  subject.



The Ancient  Culture Myth

The Japanese like to  think of themselves as an ancient culture; well that depends on what your  definition of ancient culture is. In the mini-series, Shogun, the pilots  consort makes a reference that Japan had a high civilization when Europeans  were only crawling out of caves. The truth is, when  Athens was at its height, circa 500  BC, the Japanese were literally living in caves; culture eventually came to them  via China and  Korea.  Furthermore,  Japan at its  height never attained anywhere near the level of civilization that the ancient  Greeks did. 



The Impenetrable  Japanese

In the James Bond  film You Only Live Twice, the Englishman (with the wooden leg) says to Bond  [something to the effect of], Ive lived in  Japan over 20  years and only now barely have begun to understand the Japanese. Well thats  the typical nonsensical Hollywood statement -- that the  Japanese are so mysterious and far and away more sophisticated than any western  person could ever be; and many Japanese would have you think that as well. I  dont see it that way at all; if a 3-year old Japanese child can be fully versed  in the subtleties of their culture so can you, but you need to do your homework  first.



Understanding the  Basics

The trick to  understanding the Japanese is to view them within their sociological and  cultural matrix. The two key concepts are: Individualism vs. Collectivism, and  High and Low Context Cultures.



Individualism vs.  Collectivism 

Individualistic  cultures are somewhat remote (compared to collectivistic cultures) and display  less non-verbal communication (e.g. American, British and Germanic cultures).  Collectivistic cultures stress cohesion as a group, and spend time in close  proximity to one another (e.g. Southern Europe, many  Asian cultures, especially  Japan).



High and Low  Context Cultures

People in low  context cultures (e.g. American, British and Germanic cultures) express their  thoughts and feeling directly to one another. In the west this is perceived as  being straight forward and honest. Whereas people in high context cultures are  more implicit in their verbal codes, and perceive highly verbal persons less  attractive, they tend to be more reliant on and tuned into non-verbal  communication, and have many non-verbal codes in their language. 



Low-Context Cultures  (e.g. American, British and Germanic cultures)

1.  Overtly display meanings through direct  communication

2.  Value individualism

3.  Develop many transitory or fleeting personal  relationships.  

4.  Emphasize logic.

5.  Value direct verbal interaction, less able to  read nonverbal expressions.

6.  Uses "logic" to present  ideas.

7.  Emphasizes highly structured messages, gives  details, and places great  

     stress on words and technical signs.  



High-Context  Cultures (e.g. Southern Europe,  Asia, especially  Japan)

1.  Implicitly embeds meanings at different  levels of the sociocultural context

2.  Value group sense 

3.  Take time to cultivate and establish  permanent personal relationships   

4.  Deemphasizes logic 

5.  Value indirect verbal interactions, able to  read nonverbal expressions

6.  Tend to use more "feeling" in  expression.  

7.  Tend to give simple, ambiguous, noncontexting  messages.  



To summarize, the  Japanese are part of a collectivistic, high context culture; meaning, the  participation of the group (group awareness) and non-verbal communication is  paramount in their society. When dealing with Japanese, remember, they think and  communicate in terms of their group, not the individual, and much of their  communication will come through non-verbal codes they EXPECT you to know!  



Some  Concepts



Face

This is extremely  important to the Japanese. Morality isnt as important as saving face, not only  is it embarrassing to lose face but its also shameful. Therefore going out of  your way not to directly confront or embarrass someone will save you lots of  headaches. So if someone comes up to you and speaks English in a strange way,  try not to fall down laughing, you could be the cause of a major psychological  catastrophe. 



Haragei

This translates to  gut-feeling about a person or a particular business venture. Many Japanese  will not do business with someone if they dont have a good feeling about. I  know this makes no logic, but no one ever accused the Japanese of being  logical.



Giri

This means  obligation or reciprocity. This pervades daily life and is never ignored. Before  you perform a generous act, be mindful that your recipient will feel obligated  to return the favor in some way.



Turning  Japanese

In  Japan there are  many Europeans and Americans who are Japanophiles, or  Japan lovers.  Many (but not all) have no identity or pride in their homeland and think  Japan embodies  the pinnacle of culture, and they represent the lowly barbarian. Theyll dress  in traditional Japanese clothes, learn the language perfectly, follow Japanese  customs and marry a Japanese wife, while this may work nearly everywhere else in  the world, it wont work in  Japan. No matter  what they do, they will always be considered gaijin (outsiders). Even Japanese  businessmen and their families who have returned from working abroad are no  longer accepted in society as they were before they left.



The  People

Japanese are  illogical and irrational people, if you only understand this one principle, you  will be way ahead of the game. They are shy, aloof and hypersensitive to what  others might think of them, especially if people talk behind their backs (gossip  is almost a national sport.) The Japanese are very hesitant to do anything new,  different, or independent. Being ostracized is one of the worst things that can  happen to Japanese, who are raised to be part of a group and depend on others.  They have a saying, The nail that sticks up, gets hit.



Japanese (in  Japan) are also  extremely racist towards anyone who is non-Japanese, especially blacks (_koko-jin_); BUT, this is almost never  expressed in hostility (although it has happened to me once). Dating a westerner  may be cool for a Japanese girl, but marriage is a bit more complicated (in  Japan). If  youre going to marry a Japanese girl, do her and yourself a favor, bring her  back to the west.



The  Language

Basic Japanese  phrases are not too difficult to learn and you really dont need to spend too  much time studying the language since many subway/train, highway and local signs  are romanized. In addition, the Japanese welcome any opportunity to practice  English with any foreigner they meet, even on the street. 



While living in  Japan, the two  things thing that pissed me off the most was that no one ever stated a straight  yes or no, and everyone always used the same phrases -- saying the same thing  over and over. I remember thinking, Are these people robots or something? The  language actually consists of many of these standard phrases used over and over  again. There are specific phrases for every occasion, its like cut &  paste.



If youre a male  dont learn Japanese from a female. Male and female forms of the language are a  little different. Men speak with shorter phrases and the womens form of the  language is more embellished. If you speak using the womens form, you may be  perceived as being gay. 



Why Don't They  Mean What They Say?

No -- you cant take  what a Japanese person says literally, the language is structured to avoid any  type of confrontational situation; so dont expect a direct answer. For example,  if someone says to you Thats a little difficult it really means forget it.  If they say, Ill think about it that really means NO. The phrase, Perhaps  another time really means Never. If you understand these codes youll avoid a  lot of frustration. Unfortunately I had no one to guide me and made as many  enemies as I made friends. 



Understanding the  Real Message

Two of the most used  phrases in Japan  are, Please visit my home, and lets have dinner together sometime. These  are not invitations; they are rather amicable ways of saying goodbye. In  general, they DO NOT mean come visit me or lets have dinner literally.  I once made the mistake of visiting a  Japanese family man at his home after he invited me several times; his wife was  in absolute shock, as was he when he came to the door -- I couldve knocked him  over with a feather. 



You Dont Have to  Act Japanese

I really dont like  westerners who try so hard to be Japanese; the gestures are not really  appreciated, and quite often theyll laugh at you behind your back. In  Japan Ive  always navigated the cultural stream with self-respect as well as respect for  the local people, but I never groveled. 



On  Bowing

The Japanese have  their own rules for this and it can get complicated but generally as a  westerner, dont bow too low, Ive always gotten by with a slight bow of my head  and neck. Some people bow very low, but thats more like a peasant bowing to a  lord, you dont have to go that far. You can also shake hands but dont give a  strong western handshake. The Japanese shake hands in a very weak manner, try  not to crush their hands. 

*Note: The business  card should be given after the bow. 



Introductions

In introductions use  the persons last name plus the word san which means Mr. or Ms. the Japanese  prefer to use last names. Never call yourself San, and dont ask them to call  you by your first name only, that will make them uncomfortable. 



Beware of the  Smile

A smile from a  Japanese person can either mean pleasure or extreme discomfort. Remember this,  when they smile, look at their eyes, if the eyes are smiling its positive, if  the eyes look upset, its a negative sign.



Expressing  Yourself

Avoid expressing  your opinions too directly. Japanese have what they call "honne" (real opinion)  and "tatemae" (public opinion). They will express the latter in most situations  so as not to disturb the group harmony. It is of course flexible and consists of  agreeing with the people around you as much as possible. This is the reason why  Japanese are so bad at debating serious issues in public. "Honne" is what you  really think but do not say openly, or only to close friends or relatives.  



Dont interrupt  people when theyre speaking or thinking about an answer. Japanese dont mind  short periods of silence in the middle of a discussion, they actually prefer it.  Periods of silence with the Japanese are the norm, whereas in the west, youre  considered a bore.



Dont stare at  people in public or even during a conversation. Japanese are not comfortable  with too much eye-contact.



Watch Those  Shoes

Never enter a  Japanese house (or apartment) with your shoes. This is one of the few rules for  which Japanese will not make allowances for just because youre a foreigner.  This rule is also valid for schools and other establishments. Slippers are  usually provided in the entrance hall. 

*Note: There are  special slippers for the toilet, they are usually located near or in front of  the toilet, use them ONLY for the toilet, NEVER use them to walk around the  house. 



Is it the  Bathroom or the Toilet?

In  Japan the toilet  and the bathroom are not usually one room. More often than not, the toilet and  bath areas are in separate rooms. If you wish to use the toilet the more polite  term is toire or otearai.



The  Bath

Japanese wash  themselves before entering the bath, as they have a custom of sharing the bath  water. The reason is that other  people will use the same water after you. Therefore, you should not empty  the bath after using it. In public baths, dont mistake men and women's changing  rooms, this is bad. The men's room is usually on the left, and normally has a  blue curtain with "otoko" The women's room is usually on the right, with a red  curtain reading "onna" 

Note: Tattoos are banned in most  public baths. If you have one, talk to the staff at reception beforehand to  avoid causing trouble.  

In Japan the whole  family uses the same bath water -- as a guest you will probably be given the  privilege of using the bath water first. Do NOT drain the water out after you  have finished your bath! 



Whats an  Omiyage?

If youre invited to  a Japanese home, bring a small present called "omiyage" (usually food). For  example, whenever I was invited by a friend I would go to a local pastry shop  and bring a cake or cookies.



Gift giving is very  important in  Japan, but  extravagant gifts require an equally or slightly higher extravagant gift in  return. Avoid giving pricey gifts. Gifts should be given at  the end of a visit; good gift ideas include top choice beef, fruit and alcohol  such as brandy, quality whiskey and Bourbon along with excellent wines. They  also appreciate gifts from high-end department stores like Saks and Neiman  Marcus. 



Always wrap gifts.  The selection of the wrapping paper is critical. Dont give anything wrapped in  white as it symbolizes death. Do not use bright colors or bows to wrap the gift.  It is better to have the hotel or the store warp the gift to ensure that it is  appropriate. Do not give gifts in odd numbers or use the  number four or fourteen, as odd numbers are bad luck and four sounds like the  word for death in Japanese. 



Do not surprise the  recipient with the gift. Give your host some warning during the evening that you  intend to give them a present. Give the gift with both hands and accept gifts  with hands. Generally, gifts will not be opened in your  presence. If your host insists that you open the gift do so slowly and  carefully. They take pride in gift wrapping; show that you appreciate the  effort.



It's polite to  belittle the value of your gift or food when you offer it, even if it's  blatantly untrue. In formal circumstances it's impolite to unwrap a gift someone  brings you as soon as you receive it. In casual surroundings it's normal to ask  the giver if it can be opened now. 



Do not admire  anything belonging to your host too closely. The Japanese strive to please; you  may be rewarded for your admiration. 



General  Situations

Some shops, cafes or  department stores provide plastic covers for umbrellas. Make sure not to enter  with a dripping wet umbrella without one. 



Blowing your  Nose

Never blow your nose in front of  other people. Japanese only use paper tissue for this. As in other Asian  countries, it is considered rude to blow your nose in a handkerchief and stuff  it in your pocket afterward. 



Pointing

Dont point your  finger, feet or chopsticks at people. If you have to indicate an object or  direction to someone, wave your fingers with the palm downwards. 



The  Feet

Never place your  feet on top of tables and other objects, this is never  appreciated.



Traditional  Situations

In the most  traditional families, (as well as traditional martial arts schools) you may be  required to sit on the floor in a seiza position. It involves sitting on the  floor with the legs folded under your body, with your back resting on your  heels. I never did this, it hurt me, I just stretched my legs out in front, I  didnt care what they thought of me. Nowadays many top quality restaurants have  both a tatami section and a western seating area.



Eating &  drinking

The good news, the  food tastes great, especially outside of  Tokyo and there is no tipping. The  bad news, its expensive. Although its impolite, check your bill to make sure  its correct, there were many times when I was overcharged while dining at fancy  and expensive restaurants.

If invited to a  dinner, allow the host to order and pay for the meal. 



The "oshibori" is a  small towel (cold in summer, hot in winter) used to wipe your hands, dont wipe  your face or neck with it, its considered bad form.



Never pour your own  drink, pour your guests drink, they will pour yours

If you don't want  any more to drink, leave your glass full.



Japanese say  "Itadakimasu" (pronounced without the u) before eating and "Gochisosama  deshita" (pronounce deshita as deshta) after eating, especially if you're being  treated, dont forget "Kanpai" for "Cheers." I hardly say these phrases, you  wont have to -- Kanpai though is easy to remember.



I was once invited  to have a soba (noodles) dinner with a Japanese family. As we began eating, my  hosts were making these hideous slurping sounds. I couldnt take it and stood up  and asked why everyone was eating like pigs? Well thats the way they like to  eat their noodles. I find it disgusting but youll have to bear with it.  



Dont eat while  standing or walking in the street. Even inside a house, you should sit down to  eat. The only exceptions are for eating at a counter (e.g. ramen) or for eating  an ice-cream in the street. This custom is one of the most difficult to adapt to  for many non-Japanese, as it doesn't seem to make much sense. 



When sharing a dish,  put what you take on your own plate before eating it. 

Dont use your  chopsticks to skewer food, move dishes around, and NEVER dish out food to  another using the same ends you just ate from, use the top ends. Don't ever  leave your chopsticks standing up out of your food, thats an offering for the  dead and bad luck. I once freaked out an old lady by doing that.



Traditional Japanese  food is served on several small plates, it's normal to alternate between dishes  instead of fully eating one dish after another. Its traditional in  Japan to pick up  your rice or miso soup bowl and hold it under your chin to keep your food from  falling. Don't leave a mess on your plate, fold your napkins neatly. One of the  worst things you can do is crush your napkin and place it on your dish, if you  want to upset someone, this is a good way. Also, dont put soy sauce on your  rice or sugar or cream in Japanese tea, this seems to upset lots of  people.



Dont mix sake with  hard liquor unless you want to become extremely sick.



Business

Never be late for an  appointment, use the German method, always be a little early. However, if you  are invited to a social event, punctuality is not expected, its the custom to  be "fashionably late."



Meishi

Exchanging business  cards is de rigueur in formal introductions. You should extend your card to the  other person with both hands, right side up to them (upside down to you). You  receive cards with both hands also. Be sure to look at the card and not just  pocket it. Never put it in your pants pocket and sit on it in front of them.  



It is polite to put  "san" after anothers name, but NEVER use these after your own. 



Avoid lots of  jewelry or very colorful clothes when going to work. In the past I made the  mistake of wearing impressive double-breasted suits, and behind my back I was  called a playboy. Wear dark blue or dark grey single breasted suits  only.



White-collar  Japanese typically leave the office only after their superiors have done so. Do  not expect someone to be instantly free once the official business hours are  over. 



Avoid shouting  loudly at someone to get their attention--wave, or go up to  them.



Walking around with  your hands in your pants pocket somehow really upsets people here. When  Clinton arrived in  Japan years ago  he strutted around the golf course with his hands in his pockets and several  newspapers made a big deal out of it.



No patting someone  on the back or hugging or excessive touching is appreciated in  Japan,  especially in a business setting. 



There is no custom  of "Ladies First" here, men always go first, get used to it. 



Do not chew gum when  working or in other formal situations.



Avoid the "OK" sign;  in Japan it  means money. 



Women should not  wear pants in a business situation. Japanese men tend to find it offensive.  Women should only wear low-heeled shoes to avoid towering over men. 



Most business  entertaining is done in restaurants or bars after business hours. Often in  karaoke or "hostess bars." Businesswomen should never attend "hostess bars.  



Theres no health  consciousness in  Japan, everyone  smokes a lot, get used to it.



Japan has  no tradition of making sarcastic remarks to make a point, for the most part,  youll be misunderstood. 



The Japanese gesture  of "Who, me?" is pointing at their nose, not their chest as in the  west.



The Japanese gesture  for "Come here" is to put your hand palm out, fingers up, and raise and lower  your fingers a few times. The western gesture of palm-up, closing your hand is  only used to call animals to you. 



The Japanese gesture  for no is fanning your hand sideways a few times in front of your face.  



Never wear your  slippers into a tatami (straw) mat room.



Don't wear your  slippers into the genkan (at the entrance to a home, where the shoes are  kept), nor outside. 



Japanese wear kimono  or yukata (light summer kimono) with the left side over the right. The reverse  is only for the dead at funerals. 



It's polite to  initially refuse someone's offer of help. Japanese may also initially refuse  your offer even if they really want it. Traditionally an offer is made three  times. It may be better to state you'll carry their bag, call a taxi, etc.,  instead of pushing them to be polite and refuse. 



It's polite to see a  guest to the door (or the front of a building even) when they leave.  



For taxis the driver  will open/close the rear left hand door for you. This is done mechanically by  the driver.



Japanese often  compliment each other to promote good will, but it is polite to deny how well  you speak Japanese, how nice you look, how capable you are etc.  



Dating in  Japan

I found dating to be  extremely easy in  Japan. Many  times girls would just approach me and suddenly start a conversation in English,  and more often than not would accompany me home. The funny thing was, the next  day they acted as if our escapade never occurred. Japanese girls think its cool  to date a foreigner but its much more difficult to get more seriously involved.  The Japanese frown on open displays of affection. They do not touch in public.  Also, it's highly inappropriate to touch someone of the opposite sex in  public. 



Sexual  Attitudes

I found Japanese  sexual attitudes to be bizarre. Once a Japanese friend visited me with a female  friend. He asked me if he could leave the female with me for a few hours while  he completed some chores, I replied yes, and for the next two hours tried to  converse with her. When my friend came back he collected his friend and said  goodbye. Later that evening he returned and asked me in these exact words, are  you a fag? I replied no way, and he asked me why I didnt grab the girl and  have sex with her. I said that in most countries that action constitutes rape.  He said no, thats the way you have to approach Japanese girls. That girl was  expecting me to ravage her? After a few reluctant attempts of doing it his way,  I have to admit, thats the way Japanese girls do it. BUT, dont try that  outside of  Japan.  



Things You Should  Never Discuss!

There are a few  topics that you should avoid if you dont want to make enemies. Never discuss  WWII; they are in denial about this. The Japanese are taught they were the  victims in this war. Dont discuss the merits of having an Emperor, never  mention the yakuza, they are not supposed to exist, and avoid the topic of  Japans outcasts  (the burakumin).



OSU and the  Yakuza

The term OSU,  typically used in karate dojos throughout  Japan (and other  parts of the world) its also used by the Yakuza and common street thugs. Avoid  using this term, also dont mention you study karate, kenpo or similar arts  while in Japan,  especially in a business setting. Most people will not feel comfortable around  you, and youll probably be considered an oddball or thug. These arts are  practiced by relatively few people nowadays. Golf, baseball, soccer, and other  western sports and held in much higher esteem than their own martial arts.  





_WR, President,  Realfighting_


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## George Kohler (Dec 5, 2004)

Satt said:
			
		

> Oh yeah, by the way, NAVY BEAT ARMY YESTERDAY!!!!!!! LOL. :2xBird2:



Hmm...Cadets wanting to be Officers...There are only a few officers that I liked. The best time I had in the Army was going through a school where Officers didn't have any rank. When I was put in a leadership position in this school I had to kick a few of them, while they were in the prone position, to keep them from sleeping. (I wish there was a icon for kicking someone that was already down) Boy, it felt good kicking an Officer without worrying about his rank. Especially, if they were from West Point. :ultracool 

Jason, I would listen to Don instead of his naysayers. Don knows what he's talking about.


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## Kizaru (Dec 5, 2004)

Bester said:
			
		

> I got this a while ago in my email. How true is this long winding message?
> 
> Eating & drinking
> 
> ...


And the pronounciation of "Itadakimasu" has always sounded like "Eat A Dirty Mouse" to me...


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## Kreth (Dec 6, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> And I assume you feel you came out the better for it? Of course, trying to compare _navy_ basic training with a _real_ military's basic training is a little off topic. hee hee hee.


Maybe I should interject then, as an Army Doggie has no clue about real basic training... Everyone knows that ARMY stands for Ain't Ready for the Marines Yet. 

Jeff


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## Don Roley (Dec 6, 2004)

No Kreth, US ARMY stands for Uncle Sam Ain't Released Me Yet.  :2xBird2:


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## Kreth (Dec 6, 2004)

Back to the topic at hand...

-If someone gives you a business card, do not put it in your wallet if you keep your wallet in your back pocket. 
-Don't tip in a restaurant. The gratutity is part of the cost of a meal. I have had a waitress follow me outside the restaurant to give me my tip back.
-It seems to be impolite to lock eyes with someone when speaking to them. Most Japanese that I've met will look at your chest. 

Jeff


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## Cryozombie (Dec 6, 2004)

Kreth said:
			
		

> Back to the topic at hand...
> 
> -If someone gives you a business card, do not put it in your wallet if you keep your wallet in your back pocket.
> -Don't tip in a restaurant. The gratutity is part of the cost of a meal. I have had a waitress follow me outside the restaurant to give me my tip back.
> ...


 Dont tip?  Look at their chest?

 I'd fit right in!


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## Bester (Dec 6, 2004)

Japanese girls have chests?  I have been watching the wrong films.  I thought they only got them in anime? 


Seriously, how on the mark was that article.  Some of it seems a bit, odd, to me.


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## Kizaru (Dec 6, 2004)

Kreth said:
			
		

> Maybe I should interject then, as an Army Doggie has no clue about real basic training... Everyone knows that ARMY stands for Ain't Ready for the Marines Yet.
> Jeff


USMC? Huh? What? "Uncle Sam's Misguided Children"?

I almost became a Marine. I did really well on all the tests at the recruiter's office, but the last one I flunked...couldn't get my head in the jar!!!


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## Don Roley (Dec 6, 2004)

Guys! Guys! This is getting out of hand! We need to put away all this good- humored jabs between the Navy, the Marines and the Army....

And start making fun of those sissies in the Air Force.


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## Bob Hubbard (Dec 6, 2004)

Hey, I had a friend who joing the Air Force.
He went in to be a pilot.
Last I heard, he's got the job of filling in holes in runways (life expectancy 12 minutes). >_<


ok, back to topic....


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## Don Roley (Dec 6, 2004)

Bester said:
			
		

> Seriously, how on the mark was that article.  Some of it seems a bit, odd, to me.



To me as well. But it is based on things that really cannot be measured or counted. I find Kreth's comments about not looking people in the eye a little strange too. I never noticed it and it does not seem to be a problem.

I think the best summery would not be to talk too much about collective cultures and all that but instead focus on the lack of space they have here. That, and the way agriculture had to be done, has kind of led to a situation where they could not be honest and tell people off and then go off into a corner. They were pretty much forced into a situation where they would see each other on a near daily basis. In America, you could tellt he whole community to buzz off, move a few miles away and start up a farm. Heck, America was founded largely by people who told folks in Europe to go to hell and moved over the sea. With the lack of usable agricultural land and the need for waterways for rice crops, that was not much of an option for the Japanese.

In those cases, you make sure that nothing even closely disharmonious goes on above sea level. Everything that goes on, does so beneath the surface. When you see someone face to face you smile and ask how their kids are. Later on, you release steam with your frineds as you talk about him. This is done in an "in-group" of compatriots and not in public.

So you can't say something honestly if it may cause troubles in the least. If someone asks you what they think of something they did in the west, you would tell them straight off how you thought they could improve it. In Japan you have to ask three times and get two "hey I really like it" before they will point out problems. If they did not do that, then there may be trouble and they will have to work with you in the near future.

Getting people to talk about unpleasent things in public is a bit like pulling teeth for this reason. There are exceptions. Anytime there is some famous person who will trash another person on camera the media laps it up for the great ratings. And then they will cover with glee the person's plummeting status and reputation. People love watching uncouth folks like on the Jerry Springer Show, but that does not mean that everyone acts like that or that it is proper behavior.

In short, I think you have to be kind of like a long tailed cat in a racking chair factory in the level of paranoia you have. You can't wait for someone to tell you that you are doing wrong. You have to ask yourself if what you are about to do will cause trouble. And if you get a compliment or comment, you have to ask if they are trying to get you to question on your own the meanings behind it.

Yeah, and people wonder why I drink so much.


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## Bester (Dec 6, 2004)

So, obviously being a rabid fan of Iron Chef will not give one enough of a clue, huh?


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## Kreth (Dec 7, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> I find Kreth's comments about not looking people in the eye a little strange too. I never noticed it and it does not seem to be a problem.


I think this is something I was told to me when I was stationed in Okinawa during that late 80s... :idunno: 

Jeff


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## Captain Harlock (Dec 7, 2004)

One that I believe was mentioned, however should be repeated.
Remember you are not in the US anymore.  The laws, and customs, and social behaviors are different.
You are a guest.
Be respectful, polite and behave conservatively.


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## Don Roley (May 25, 2005)

Captain Harlock said:
			
		

> One that I believe was mentioned, however should be repeated.
> Remember you are not in the US anymore.  The laws, and customs, and social behaviors are different.
> You are a guest.
> Be respectful, polite and behave conservatively.



By conservativly, I think you mean that even if someone does not tell you that something is bad- you consider that maybe it is and refrain.

Yeah- don't wait until people tell you to stop doing something or that you are an idiot. They are not big on things like that. I know of one guy who was told by a Japanese shihan I used to train under to not come back anymore to training. (Rare case.) But numerous times this same Shihan used to tell stories about how big an idiot certain students were and let it be known that they were not worth the sweat over teaching them the important stuff.

So don't think that until a Japanese person tells you to stop that you can do whatever you want. Put yourselves in their shoes and think about how what you do _might_ be offensive. Better to err on the side of caution.


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## davidg553 (May 25, 2005)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> To me as well. But it is based on things that really cannot be measured or counted. I find Kreth's comments about not looking people in the eye a little strange too. I never noticed it and it does not seem to be a problem.


 If you were the typical Japanese person having to talk to Kreth, I'm sure you'd look at this chest too. I'm not sure if its because of the the scary biker look or if its because he's so damn ugly! :asian:


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## Don Roley (May 29, 2005)

Here is a big taboo for Bujinkan members. I just heard the story today and was floored by it.

Ok, I think I have talked about letting the Japanese teacher do the teaching. I was mainly talking about people trying to teach their partners what they thought the teacher was doing instead of asking the teacher directly.

But I just heard a story today that surprised even me.

Some people do something else when they can't do what the teacher is doing and justify it to themselves as being adaptable. I once heard Nagato say, "It is nice that you guys can adapt when you can't get things to go the way they are supposed to. But to get better in Soke's art you need to do things as Soke shows them."

The story I heard today was of a guy who went to a dojo and was not able to do what the teacher was doing. Not only did he not try to figure out how to do it correctly, but he started trying to get his partner to do the variation that he came up with instead of what the teacher was showing.

He had done many stupid, rude things prior to this and he was told not to come back after that.

Take a lesson. You are not the teacher. You should do your best to do what the teacher is showing because he is showing it for a reason. If you don't want to do learn what the Japanese teachers are showing, don't take time away from the students who are trying their best to learn what they can.


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## DuckofDeath (Jun 1, 2005)

The biggest taboo is misspelling "Japanese."

I once got my reputation dinged with "You are most certainly a moron." and didn't let it bother me.


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## DuckofDeath (Jun 5, 2005)

DuckofDeath said:
			
		

> I once got my reputation dinged with "You are most certainly a moron." and didn't let it bother me.



I'll be darned.  I checked my comments to see if I had offended anyone lately and saw that the "You are most certainly a moron." comment had been removed.  That was my favorite!


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## DuckofDeath (Jun 25, 2005)

DuckofDeath said:
			
		

> I'll be darned.  I checked my comments to see if I had offended anyone lately and saw that the "You are most certainly a moron." comment had been removed.  That was my favorite!



It's back!  Thanks, Dale!


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## Shogun (Jun 25, 2005)

> Ok, I think I have talked about letting the Japanese teacher do the teaching. I was mainly talking about people trying to teach their partners what they thought the teacher was doing instead of asking the teacher directly.
> 
> But I just heard a story today that surprised even me.
> 
> Some people do something else when they can't do what the teacher is doing and justify it to themselves as being adaptable. I once heard Nagato say, "It is nice that you guys can adapt when you can't get things to go the way they are supposed to. But to get better in Soke's art you need to do things as Soke shows them."


I have a story kinda related to this type of free thinking, as some would call it.
When I was on the range one day with a sheriif deputy, he was showing me something he "thought" he learned from the instrcutor. now, the instructor I am talking about is considered the top in the state. I told him that I have trained under this teacher only a week before this incident and what he was showing me was most certainly false. The deputy proceeded to tell me that "the way he adapted it to fit himself would work better for this and that" and made up a bunch of excuses. one of the senior deputy told me that I should be doing it the correct way I was shown and basically told the other deputy to quiet his yap. This type of scenario plays out all the time in which someone tries to pass off "adapted" knowledge as cannon. So, as for Bujinkan (and everything else) if one adapts something, it may work, it may be new, but its no longer bujinkan and should not be labeled as so.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jun 26, 2005)

So of hanbo or jutte techniques are adapted to use with an ASP, they're not juttejutsu/hanbojutsu anymore?


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## Cryozombie (Jun 27, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> So of hanbo or jutte techniques are adapted to use with an ASP, they're not juttejutsu/hanbojutsu anymore?


<Sarcasm>
Yeah... it means if you use a Baseball bat as a Hanbo instead of a bat, its still a bat... and the Bujinkan doesnt teach baseball bat, therefore its not a Bujinkan technique...

</Sarcasm>


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## rutherford (Jun 27, 2005)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> <Sarcasm>
> . . . and the Bujinkan doesnt teach baseball bat



Hmm.  Let me channel Nimravus for a minute.  "Are you sure about that?"   :uhyeah:


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jun 27, 2005)

I have trained with/against baseball bats, if that's what you were wondering...?


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## Cryozombie (Jun 27, 2005)

So you are telling me the Aluminum Baseball Bat is a Traditional Battlefield weapon??? 

I was making a sarcastic example of applying a Traditional Technique to a "Modern" tool... thats all.

(We train with a bat too.)


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## Dale Seago (Jun 28, 2005)

DuckofDeath said:
			
		

> It's back!  Thanks, Dale!



Pleased to be of assistance.     :lol:


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## Dale Seago (Jun 28, 2005)

Shogun said:
			
		

> I have a story kinda related to this type of free thinking, as some would call it.
> When I was on the range one day with a sheriif deputy, he was showing me something he "thought" he learned from the instrcutor. now, the instructor I am talking about is considered the top in the state. I told him that I have trained under this teacher only a week before this incident and what he was showing me was most certainly false. The deputy proceeded to tell me that "the way he adapted it to fit himself would work better for this and that" and made up a bunch of excuses. one of the senior deputy told me that I should be doing it the correct way I was shown and basically told the other deputy to quiet his yap. This type of scenario plays out all the time in which someone tries to pass off "adapted" knowledge as cannon. So, as for Bujinkan (and everything else) if one adapts something, it may work, it may be new, but its no longer bujinkan and should not be labeled as so.



Law enforcement defensive tactics is a different sort of animal: Particular techniques are taught and executed in particular ways less, sometimes perhaps, for their effectiveness than for their legal defendability. If as a LEO you use some technique which wasn't taught you by your official trainers, you may be opening yourself and your department/agency to liability.


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## Shogun (Jun 29, 2005)

> So of hanbo or jutte techniques are adapted to use with an ASP, they're not juttejutsu/hanbojutsu anymore?


Oh my bad I didnt phrase it right. I meant, before you adapt something for yourself, you must learn the basis (obviously). What I was refering to is when something doesnt work for someone and the "make up" something that does withoout actually knowing "why" they are doing that particular technique in the first place.



> Law enforcement defensive tactics is a different sort of animal: Particular techniques are taught and executed in particular ways less, sometimes perhaps, for their effectiveness than for their legal defendability. If as a LEO you use some technique which wasn't taught you by your official trainers, you may be opening yourself and your department/agency to liability.


Dale totally agree. but I was comparing and contrasting it to Hatsumi showing something, the student applying it incorrectly at first, and then bending it to work without having any idea of the original technique.

its the same reaon many MMA fighters have crappy Jiu Jitsu. climbing a ladder but skipping rungs.


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