# Attention all users...



## Grenadier

*Admin's Note:*

Some of you haven't exactly been on your best behavior here.  While debate, disagreements, and yes, even some heat may be allowed, name-calling and style bashing are flat-out prohibited.  

Please keep your discussion civil, and on-topic.  Refusal to do so will result in the issuance of warning points that will lead to the suspension or banning of your account.


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## wingchun100

Where would we see our warning points? On my profile all I see are trophy points.


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## KPM

Did that thread get deleted?


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## wingchun100

Must have been mine: "When It is No Longer 'Wing Chun.'"


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## Gerry Seymour

wingchun100 said:


> Must have been mine: "When It is No Longer 'Wing Chun.'"


Did that one go downhill? I read (and responded) in the first day or two, and it seemed to actually be generating some interesting discussion at first.


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## Grenadier

The thread is currently under review.


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## wingchun100

gpseymour said:


> Did that one go downhill? I read (and responded) in the first day or two, and it seemed to actually be generating some interesting discussion at first.


 
It degenerated into insults as to whose lineage was "real" or "broken." Some people tried to say that all should get credit as having something meaningful to contribute to WC, but...not everyone agreed.


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## wingchun100

I will admit that I made at least one remark in there that could have been...less than friendly/professional regarding someone's interpretation of Chi Sao. It was more the wording that I chose than the sentiment, because I still believe what they wrote was way off. However, there are ways to disagree without being insulting. If I am considered one of the culprits, then I do apologize. I should have thought through how I wrote that reply better.


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## wtxs

wingchun100 said:


> I will admit that I made at least one remark in there that could have been...less than friendly/professional regarding someone's interpretation of Chi Sao. It was more the wording that I chose than the sentiment, because I still believe what they wrote was way off. However, there are ways to disagree without being insulting. If I am considered one of the culprits, then I do apologize. I should have thought through how I wrote that reply better.



Both sides (if there is one) are to shoulder the blame, it is very hard to think of what to write when your brain is rattling from all that


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## wingchun100

wtxs said:


> Both sides (if there is one) are to shoulder the blame, it is very hard to think of what to write when your brain is rattling from all that


 
I know, but I can't control anyone's words except my own. So I am accepting my responsibility.


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## KPM

Actually, it was Transk that went a little overboard.  Then he stopped posting.  I assumed a moderator had sent him a warning via PM.  The moderation is not at all transparent.


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## geezer

Funny how that thread devolved. In my experience the WC people here get on pretty well  ... except for two in particular. Considering their level of arrogance, it's no wonder some of the rest get worked up. Frankly, I wish they'd go back to that other forum where they came from.


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## Danny T

geezer said:


> In my experience the WC people here get on pretty well


LOL, note the key term 'here'.
In my experience most of the WC people I have actual contact with get on pretty well.
When having had contact the discussion is very far more pleasant and open.
I can only assume the ego and one-upmanship give way to respect by feeling and then a desire to understand what did work and why as well what didn't and why.
But until then 'You are wrong' will prevail with some.


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## Marnetmar

Danny T said:


> LOL, note the key term 'here'.
> In my experience most of the WC people I have actual contact with get on pretty well.
> When having had contact the discussion is very far more pleasant and open.
> I can only assume the ego and one-upmanship give way to respect by feeling and then a desire to understand what did work and why as well what didn't and why.
> But until then 'You are wrong' will prevail with some.



I still fail to understand the rationale of people flaunting the personal politics they have with each other in front of a captive audience instead of just having a discussion through private message. There's no reason to be so spiteful.


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## Kickboxer101

Marnetmar said:


> I still fail to understand the rationale of people flaunting the personal politics they have with each other in front of a captive audience instead of just having a discussion through private message. There's no reason to be so spiteful.


There's also the online factor. People sometimes say things online that they probably wouldn't say in person because of just human nature but online people feel they can say what they like since its likely they'll never meet that person


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## KPM

geezer said:


> Funny how that thread devolved. In my experience the WC people here get on pretty well  ... except for two in particular. Considering their level of arrogance, it's no wonder some of the rest get worked up. Frankly, I wish they'd go back to that other forum where they came from.



In all fairness, I have learned from both Guy and LFJ when they care to actually take the time to post something technical and minimize the "superiority  complex."  They are both knowledgeable.  Guy was showing signs that our message was getting through and he seemed to be making an effort to tone it down some.  I guess the "ball is in their court" now.  Then can choose to actually do as I suggested and start a thread that talks about the technical differences between WSLVT and everyone else's Wing Chun in the Ip Man lineage and why they think those differences could not be due to WSL's own refinements or innovations of the system based on his own talent and experience.  Or they can choose to ignore that and wait for the next thread so they can come along and insult and tick everyone off again.  I'm guessing they will choose the 2nd option, but one can always hope!


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## guy b

Overall looking at comments above they do not ring true to me in terms of the way that threads actually progress, or in terms of the way I feel about VT and wing chun practitioners from other YM students.

I don't feel arrogant about VT, having been a recent convert from another branch of wing chun which turned out to be incoherent and non functional. I feel more like an idiot who wasted a lot of time on something worthless than someone with all of the answers. I do feel lucky and I also feel like I have a lot of catching up to do. But equally I am not the type of person to pretend things look great when to me they don't for the purpose of sparing someone else's feelings. If I see something in a clip or someone describes something to me that sounds stupid, then I will tend to mention it, and will try to find out why. I try to make my decisions based upon evidence and I don't have any particular loyalty to names or sifus. I would change what I do in a second if someone showed me a better way. 

There is zero intention on my part to intentionally insult anyone and I personally cannot imagine being insulted by anyone pointing out potential issues with systemic organisation, understanding and coherence of any system in which I trained. Rather I would tend to be motivated to investigate what they said and to reply after giving it some thought and testing. Being invested in something to the extent that you would fail to see reality in order to protect it is a recipe for failure in martial arts and in life. 

In terms of the perception of others here, I think that when anger is this high it is very hard for people to read and digest information without bias, and to respond in a fresh way. People tend to group together to answer any perceived threat to the status quo, and very few times do I feel that anyone has actually read anything I wrote with fresh eyes. I think that posts on WSL VT have become like a red button which cause people to react rudely, abruptly, to switch off their logical or perceptive faculties, and basically to join in the mob response to eliminate different opinion. The most obvious example of this is the person above who is basically asking for people whose opinions he doesn't like to leave the forum. But there are other people who just seem to enjoy argument for its own sake without ever getting anywhere, or who respond to any non agreeable position with silence or snarky one liners. There are even people who take and use information provided openly and then join in the attack when discussion gets heated. 

All I would ask of these people is that when they read something that makes the red mist start to descend, or that makes them want to grab a pitchfork and join the mob, they take the time to imagine that they are beginners in wing chun who don't know anyone, who have no pre-conceived ideas, and who have with an evidence based approach to getting the most from their practice. 

If that isn't possible then i don't think that any amount of tip toeing around trying to be non offensive to everyone is going to help anyone learn anything. And I think that has to be the goal of forums at the end of the day.


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## Gerry Seymour

guy b said:


> Overall looking at comments above they do not ring true to me in terms of the way that threads actually progress, or in terms of the way I feel about VT and wing chun practitioners from other YM students.
> 
> I don't feel arrogant about VT, having been a recent convert from another branch of wing chun which turned out to be incoherent and non functional. I feel more like an idiot who wasted a lot of time on something worthless than someone with all of the answers. I do feel lucky and I also feel like I have a lot of catching up to do. But equally I am not the type of person to pretend things look great when to me they don't for the purpose of sparing someone else's feelings. If I see something in a clip or someone describes something to me that sounds stupid, then I will tend to mention it, and will try to find out why. I try to make my decisions based upon evidence and I don't have any particular loyalty to names or sifus. I would change what I do in a second if someone showed me a better way.
> 
> There is zero intention on my part to intentionally insult anyone and I personally cannot imagine being insulted by anyone pointing out potential issues with systemic organisation, understanding and coherence of any system in which I trained. Rather I would tend to be motivated to investigate what they said and to reply after giving it some thought and testing. Being invested in something to the extent that you would fail to see reality in order to protect it is a recipe for failure in martial arts and in life.
> 
> In terms of the perception of others here, I think that when anger is this high it is very hard for people to read and digest information without bias, and to respond in a fresh way. People tend to group together to answer any perceived threat to the status quo, and very few times do I feel that anyone has actually read anything I wrote with fresh eyes. I think that posts on WSL VT have become like a red button which cause people to react rudely, abruptly, to switch off their logical or perceptive faculties, and basically to join in the mob response to eliminate different opinion. The most obvious example of this is the person above who is basically asking for people whose opinions he doesn't like to leave the forum. But there are other people who just seem to enjoy argument for its own sake without ever getting anywhere, or who respond to any non agreeable position with silence or snarky one liners. There are even people who take and use information provided openly and then join in the attack when discussion gets heated.
> 
> All I would ask of these people is that when they read something that makes the red mist start to descend, or that makes them want to grab a pitchfork and join the mob, they take the time to imagine that they are beginners in wing chun who don't know anyone, who have no pre-conceived ideas, and who have with an evidence based approach to getting the most from their practice.
> 
> If that isn't possible then i don't think that any amount of tip toeing around trying to be non offensive to everyone is going to help anyone learn anything. And I think that has to be the goal of forums at the end of the day.



As someone from outside the WC community, Guy, I have seen posts of yours where it appeared you were stating absolutes. It appeared you were telling others their view of WC/VT was flawed and yours was the accurate view, in spite of what seemed reasonable arguments on both sides. If that was not your intention, then perhaps it's a matter of miscommunication.

Just an observation from someone who likes to learn.


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## Steve

wingchun100 said:


> I know, but I can't control anyone's words except my own. So I am accepting my responsibility.


You need to let it go man.   Stop beating yourself up.


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## wingchun100

Steve said:


> You need to let it go man.   Stop beating yourself up.



Uh...I'm not. I was responding to what the person before me said about how other people equally got out of hand. I am not accountable for how others act...only myself.


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## JowGaWolf

Lol.  leave it to the Wing Chun people. A lot in in fighting for the rights to claim what Wing Chun is.  Martialtalk needs to host a tournament. Lol.


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## KangTsai

Style discussions degenerate quick, anywhere on the Internet.


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## wtxs

JowGaWolf said:


> Lol.  leave it to the Wing Chun people. A lot in in fighting for the rights to claim what Wing Chun is.  Martialtalk needs to host a tournament. Lol.



You're so right about the in fighting bit. Title of WSL early 80's video is Wing Chun - The Science of In Fighting, guess he never ever expect people to take it literally and to the extreme.


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## geezer

@ Guy -- My previous post was a reflection on attitude, I have nothing against WSL-VT. In fact I am an admirer of the system, ...although I haven't found anybody teaching it in my area.

Regarding your having experienced other WC branches and then converting to WSL VT, I have little to say ...except beware of becoming a janissary for your newfound art. Converts often become the most extreme zealots. Kind of like self-righteous non-smokers who have but recently given up the habit.


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## Juany118

geezer said:


> @ Guy -- My previous post was a reflection on attitude, I have nothing against WSL-VT. In fact I am an admirer of the system, ...although I haven't found anybody teaching it in my area.
> 
> Regarding your having experienced other WC branches and then converting to WSL VT, I have little to say ...except beware of becoming a janissary for your newfound art. Converts often become the most extreme zealots. Kind of like self-righteous non-smokers who have but recently given up the habit.


First I completely agree with this.  I too have no issue with WSLVT and see it as an excellent system.  My issue is only born when alternative systems are dismissed with little evidence detailed as a justification.

I also agree with the last.  I had some WSLVT training before I found my current school.  First night there we open with chi sau.  Now my teacher once studied WSLVT as well yet when he saw my chi sau he came over and said "no, that's modified WC not Traditional Wing Chun" so I had to start at the beginning again "reprogram" my forms. 

I wouldn't call him a true fanatic because there are times where I have used TWC techniques in more of an Aikido fashion (I go for control and take downs in sparring more than the other students) and he doesn't have an issue with it, maybe because he knows it will help me on the job, BUT he still sees TWC as superior to WSLVT and will refer to other YM Lineages as "modified."

PS I used "Aikido fashion" because that was the first Eastern TMA I studied.
Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk


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## guy b

geezer said:


> @ Guy -- My previous post was a reflection on attitude, I have nothing against WSL-VT. In fact I am an admirer of the system, ...although I haven't found anybody teaching it in my area.
> 
> Regarding your having experienced other WC branches and then converting to WSL VT, I have little to say ...except beware of becoming a janissary for your newfound art. Converts often become the most extreme zealots. Kind of like self-righteous non-smokers who have but recently given up the habit.



Thanks for the reply. I don't feel as if my attitude is a bad one, or that I am arrogant about the WSL VT system compared to other systems- I like to cross train and I am always exploring new things. I love to learn martial arts. I suppose I have a short attention span for things where I perceive inconsistencies, and I have seen a lot in the wing chun I experienced prior to my current group. 

The last VT group I trained with was WSL VT, but after quite a while I found out that it was severely impaired in terms of understanding and efficacy due to lack of knowledge and subsequent gap filling by the teacher. I am not an evangelist for a particular system, maybe more an enthusiast for a particular way of doing things. I am not prepared to put up with a relaxed "its all good" attitude or the converse super secretive "you can learn why we do that later when you have paid me x amount". I need reasons and explanation that is consistent and without contradiction. I need effective demonstration. I appreciate directness. I am not a fan of heirarchies and time served over ability.


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## wingchun100

Well, for what it's worth, there WERE some good replies before that thread fell apart.


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## Transk53

KPM said:


> Actually, it was Transk that went a little overboard.  Then he stopped posting.  I assumed a moderator had sent him a warning via PM.  The moderation is not at all transparent.



Yeah it was me no doubt. A night of idiocy on my part, and a moment of weakness that I have spent the best part of a week berating myself for.

Do apologise to all members. Didn't even remember posting, bar the one about the VT punch.


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## jks9199

Grenadier said:


> *Admin's Note:*
> 
> Some of you haven't exactly been on your best behavior here.  While debate, disagreements, and yes, even some heat may be allowed, name-calling and style bashing are flat-out prohibited.
> 
> Please keep your discussion civil, and on-topic.  Refusal to do so will result in the issuance of warning points that will lead to the suspension or banning of your account.


It seems we really need to republish this on a weekly basis.  Or maybe people need to heed it...


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## Steve

jks9199 said:


> It seems we really need to republish this on a weekly basis.  Or maybe people need to heed it...


which people do you have in mind?


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## Grandmaster Yue men quan

Hey sorry if it were me! While I like the sight and have posted stuff I'd like to take off for some reason there is no deleat post button on the bottom of where you post and I'm not great a looking for stuff as I can sees my pots but have no way of destroying them. As some posts were for specific people I can't find the dm button either. I'm sure it's probably there somewhere but not being the first thing on the screen it makes it difficult and I'm kinda hear for fun. If you want to deleat all my posts I'll start over sorry in advance if it was me.


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## jks9199

Grandmaster Yue men quan said:


> Hey sorry if it were me! While I like the sight and have posted stuff I'd like to take off for some reason there is no deleat post button on the bottom of where you post and I'm not great a looking for stuff as I can sees my pots but have no way of destroying them. As some posts were for specific people I can't find the dm button either. I'm sure it's probably there somewhere but not being the first thing on the screen it makes it difficult and I'm kinda hear for fun. If you want to deleat all my posts I'll start over sorry in advance if it was me.


Since this thread is from 2016, before you joined, you might be safe....


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