# Canada makes good swords



## PhotonGuy

I just got a sword from a Canadian company. I must say, Canada makes good swords, or at least the company I got the sword from does.


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## Dirty Dog

Well... what qualifies you to determine if the sword is any good or not?


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## PhotonGuy

First of all, the material its made out of. Some people who don't know much about swords erroneously believe that stainless steel is a good material when in fact its very poor. Stainless steel is way to brittle to make good swords and a sword made of it doesn't serve much purpose other than being a wall decoration. Carbon steel such as AISI 10XX or AISI 5160 are good materials. Also, its much better to have a hand forged sword than a sword that's entirely factory produced. A good sword will be sharp and will cut well and have good hardness but will also be flexible and will have a blade that can easily bend. I would also want a sword that looks nice although for me that is a secondary concern. There are tests to determine if a sword is good, one of which is to try the sword on rolled up tatami mats.


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## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> First of all, the material its made out of. Some people who don't know much about swords erroneously believe that stainless steel is a good material when in fact its very poor. Stainless steel is way to brittle to make good swords and a sword made of it doesn't serve much purpose other than being a wall decoration. Carbon steel such as AISI 10XX or AISI 5160 are good materials. Also, its much better to have a hand forged sword than a sword that's entirely factory produced. A good sword will be sharp and will cut well and have good hardness but will also be flexible and will have a blade that can easily bend. I would also want a sword that looks nice although for me that is a secondary concern. There are tests to determine if a sword is good, one of which is to try the sword on rolled up tatami mats.




A factory made sword of stainless steel is going to be miles better than anything I can hand forge!


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## Chris Parker

PhotonGuy said:


> First of all, the material its made out of. Some people who don't know much about swords erroneously believe that stainless steel is a good material when in fact its very poor. Stainless steel is way to brittle to make good swords and a sword made of it doesn't serve much purpose other than being a wall decoration. Carbon steel such as AISI 10XX or AISI 5160 are good materials. Also, its much better to have a hand forged sword than a sword that's entirely factory produced. A good sword will be sharp and will cut well and have good hardness but will also be flexible and will have a blade that can easily bend. I would also want a sword that looks nice although for me that is a secondary concern. There are tests to determine if a sword is good, one of which is to try the sword on rolled up tatami mats.



Arguments over steels aside, that's not what you were asked&#8230; you were asked what qualified you, personally, to be able to assess what a good sword is&#8230; not list off properties. I mean, we don't know what sword you're talking about at all&#8230; Canadian? What does that mean to us? What is your experience in assessing and appraising swords? What types of sword? Why do you think it's "much better to have a hand forged sword than a sword that's entirely factory produced"? How can you tell the difference?


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## Tez3

Chris Parker said:


> Arguments over steels aside, that's not what you were asked&#8230; you were asked what qualified you, personally, to be able to assess what a good sword is&#8230; not list off properties. I mean, we don't know what sword you're talking about at all&#8230; Canadian? What does that mean to us? What is your experience in assessing and appraising swords? What types of sword? Why do you think it's "much better to have a hand forged sword than a sword that's entirely factory produced"? How can you tell the difference?



I read stuff about 'good' swords on the internet, I still know nothing other than that. I think most martial artists interested in weapons even if not training them have heard about swords cutting tatami mats.


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## Chris Parker

I have a "forged, non-factory" shinken (live sword)&#8230; it's realistically a relatively inexpensive cutter for my guys to use (easily) when we do tameshigiri&#8230; one of my guys mentioned how good the sword was&#8230; so I pointed out that it really wasn't that good at all, but it does suit the purpose. 

The point is that what makes a sword "good" or not is a lot more than anything mentioned at any point in this thread&#8230; and the experience to tell what exactly is involved is very, very involved.


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## Cirdan

I sincerely hope PG posts some videos of backyard sword swinging to impress us all.


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## PhotonGuy

What I consider a good sword is a sword that is "battle ready" another words, a sword that is functional, is good at cutting, and makes a good weapon. Not something that just looks good on the wall. When I buy a sword from a company I research the company and see if its got good reviews and I see if the company hand forges the swords or mass produces them in a factory. The Canadian company that I am talking about in this case is Darksword Armory.


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## Blindside

PhotonGuy said:


> First of all, the material its made out of. Some people who don't know much about swords erroneously believe that stainless steel is a good material when in fact its very poor. Stainless steel is way to brittle to make good swords and a sword made of it doesn't serve much purpose other than being a wall decoration. Carbon steel such as AISI 10XX or AISI 5160 are good materials. Also, its much better to have a hand forged sword than a sword that's entirely factory produced. A good sword will be sharp and will cut well and have good hardness but will also be flexible and will have a blade that can easily bend. I would also want a sword that looks nice although for me that is a secondary concern. There are tests to determine if a sword is good, one of which is to try the sword on rolled up tatami mats.



The steel type is very important, but equally or more important is the heat treat.  One of my friends who is a professional knife and sword maker (as in makes his living doing so) says that 80% of the performance of the blade is in the heat treat.  Now, what qualifies you to judge your sword?  Did you torture test it?  Did you bend it and it not take a set?  How did you check its edge holding capability?  Oh, also, what company?  Those of us who are into all things sharp and pointy like to know about good companies.


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## Dirty Dog

PhotonGuy said:


> First of all, the material its made out of. Some people who don't know much about swords erroneously believe that stainless steel is a good material when in fact its very poor. Stainless steel is way to brittle to make good swords and a sword made of it doesn't serve much purpose other than being a wall decoration. Carbon steel such as AISI 10XX or AISI 5160 are good materials.



Not necessarily true. "Stainless" includes a lot of different compounds (as does other designations) and some of them can, in fact, make excellent blades. It depends in large part on the temping and annealing process used. A well made "stainless" blade can outperform a poorly made "carbon" steel.



PhotonGuy said:


> Also, its much better to have a hand forged sword than a sword that's entirely factory produced. A good sword will be sharp and will cut well and have good hardness but will also be flexible and will have a blade that can easily bend. I would also want a sword that looks nice although for me that is a secondary concern.



Again... not necessarily true. What do you mean by "factory produced"? Honestly, it sounds more like you're parroting something you've read rather than something you actually understand.



PhotonGuy said:


> There are tests to determine if a sword is good, one of which is to try the sword on rolled up tatami mats.



There are, but it doesn't sound like you actually understand them. For one thing, you'd need to know how to use the sword correctly while cutting the tatami; a katana is not swung like a baseball bat for example.
I could quickly pound a piece of junk steel into a sword shape, make it tip heavy, and put an edge on it. You could swing it baseball bat-style, and it'll cut tatami just great. It'll still be a junk sword.


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## Dirty Dog

PhotonGuy said:


> What I consider a good sword is a sword that is "battle ready" another words, a sword that is functional, is good at cutting, and makes a good weapon. Not something that just looks good on the wall. When I buy a sword from a company I research the company and see if its got good reviews and I see if the company hand forges the swords or mass produces them in a factory. The Canadian company that I am talking about in this case is Darksword Armory.



I think we'd all like to see some video of you using this blade....


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## PhotonGuy

I usually don't test the sword myself although sometimes I try it out and cut stuff and I do check the flexibility of the blade. Mostly I watch videos where the same kind of sword is being tested and that way I know how well it performs. This sword in particular is a limited edition Excalibur sword produced by Darksword Armory and here are videos of it being used.


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## PhotonGuy

Dirty Dog said:


> Not necessarily true. "Stainless" includes a lot of different compounds (as does other designations) and some of them can, in fact, make excellent blades. It depends in large part on the temping and annealing process used. A well made "stainless" blade can outperform a poorly made "carbon" steel.



Stainless Steel can be great for making knives, but when you get a blade as large as a sword there can be problems with brittleness. There are certain types of stainless steels that can make decent sword blades but usually they will be very expensive due to the process of making them and they will never be as good in performance as a carbon steel blade that is made just as well. With a stainless steel blade, this can happen.







Dirty Dog said:


> Again... not necessarily true. What do you mean by "factory produced"? Honestly, it sounds more like you're parroting something you've read rather than something you actually understand.



Some companies will use computer guided torches to cut out sword blades from sheet metal and then do little more than to touch them up and put handles on them. I will not buy such swords.



Dirty Dog said:


> There are, but it doesn't sound like you actually understand them. For one thing, you'd need to know how to use the sword correctly while cutting the tatami; a katana is not swung like a baseball bat for example.
> I could quickly pound a piece of junk steel into a sword shape, make it tip heavy, and put an edge on it. You could swing it baseball bat-style, and it'll cut tatami just great. It'll still be a junk sword.



I do know how to use a sword correctly for cutting. And yes a katana is not swung like a baseball bat, its more like casting a fishing rod. However, usually I will watch cutting demonstrations done by people who have lots of experience cutting with swords.


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## Dirty Dog

PhotonGuy said:


> I usually don't test the sword myself although sometimes I try it out and cut stuff and I do check the flexibility of the blade. Mostly I watch videos where the same kind of sword is being tested and that way I know how well it performs. This sword in particular is a limited edition Excalibur sword produced by Darksword Armory and here are videos of it being used.



So cutting a tatami is a "good test" according to you, but you don't actually do the test. Or, from what you said, any testing or cutting at all. So basically, you're looking for a wall hanger. I'm sure this blade, with it's high polish, will make you completely happy, then.

In the first video, you can see that the blade has ripples. That's not a sign of good forging. And if you step through the video, it's seems that the sword isn't "cut in half", but simply breaks. Several inches from where your magic sword actually makes contact. Pretty worthless test.
In the second video, we cut... jugs. Impressive, but also not useful. Those jugs can be cut with any crappy piece of steel with a decent edge. And a decent edge can be put on pretty much anything. At least for a while...
And the third test... using a longsword as an axe. I think that pretty much tells us all we need to know.


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## Xue Sheng

PhotonGuy said:


> What I consider a good sword is a sword that is "battle ready" another words, a sword that is functional, is good at cutting, and makes a good weapon.



I have a Dao that would fit that description rather well... it is not sharp, but it could be and it can cut brass pipe brackets and take chunks out of concrete floors..... but I do not think I would ever call it a good sword.... functional yes....but good...no.....


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## Dirty Dog

PhotonGuy said:


> Stainless Steel can be great for making knives, but when you get a blade as large as a sword there can be problems with brittleness.



The same problems are present when in shorter blades. If they're not heat treated properly. Regardless of the steel type.
I don't care for stainless steel sword blades either. Because they're not period correct.



PhotonGuy said:


> There are certain types of stainless steels that can make decent sword blades but usually they will be very expensive due to the process of making them



Good. Admitting you're wrong is good. Remember how you did that, for future reference.



PhotonGuy said:


> and they will never be as good in performance as a carbon steel blade that is made just as well. With a stainless steel blade, this can happen.



That happens with carbon steel blades too.



PhotonGuy said:


> Some companies will use computer guided torches to cut out sword blades from sheet metal and then do little more than to touch them up and put handles on them. I will not buy such swords.



Why not? From what you've said, you're just buying wall hangers anyway.



PhotonGuy said:


> I do know how to use a sword correctly for cutting. And yes a katana is not swung like a baseball bat, its more like casting a fishing rod. However, usually I will watch cutting demonstrations done by people who have lots of experience cutting with swords.



So, again, you don't actually use the swords. That's fine. But there's really no point in talking about the quality of a sword that you don't use. And how do you know what sort of training and experience the people you're watching have?


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## PhotonGuy

Dirty Dog said:


> So cutting a tatami is a "good test" according to you, but you don't actually do the test. Or, from what you said, any testing or cutting at all. So basically, you're looking for a wall hanger. I'm sure this blade, with it's high polish, will make you completely happy, then.
> 
> In the first video, you can see that the blade has ripples. That's not a sign of good forging. And if you step through the video, it's seems that the sword isn't "cut in half", but simply breaks. Several inches from where your magic sword actually makes contact. Pretty worthless test.
> In the second video, we cut... jugs. Impressive, but also not useful. Those jugs can be cut with any crappy piece of steel with a decent edge. And a decent edge can be put on pretty much anything. At least for a while...
> And the third test... using a longsword as an axe. I think that pretty much tells us all we need to know.



Cutting tatami mats is a test but its not the only test.


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## PhotonGuy

Dirty Dog said:


> Why not? From what you've said, you're just buying wall hangers anyway.



No Im not.



Dirty Dog said:


> So, again, you don't actually use the swords. That's fine. But there's really no point in talking about the quality of a sword that you don't use. And how do you know what sort of training and experience the people you're watching have?


I do use the swords I buy but I also watch them being used in demonstrations. And as how I know what training and experience the people Im watching have, in most cases I don't. There are times when I will buy a sword from a renowned sword maker and I will see him in person do sword demonstrations, but lots of the time I watch videos where I don't know how good the person is doing the demonstration, so that's why I test the sword myself.


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## donald1

PhotonGuy said:


> I do know how to use a sword correctly for cutting. And yes a katana is not swung like a baseball bat, its more like casting a fishing rod. However, usually I will watch cutting demonstrations done by people who have lots of experience cutting with swords.



I don't think swinging a fishing pole is something I'd compare to swinging a sword


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## Carol

Dirty Dog said:


> In the first video, you can see that the blade has ripples. That's not a sign of good forging. And if you step through the video, it's seems that the sword isn't "cut in half", but simply breaks. Several inches from where your magic sword actually makes contact. Pretty worthless test.



Oh that's awkward!!

View attachment $cheap sword.jpg


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## Dirty Dog

PhotonGuy said:


> No Im not.
> 
> 
> I do use the swords I buy but I also watch them being used in demonstrations. And as how I know what training and experience the people Im watching have, in most cases I don't. There are times when I will buy a sword from a renowned sword maker and I will see him in person do sword demonstrations, but lots of the time I watch videos where I don't know how good the person is doing the demonstration, so that's why I test the sword myself.



Well then, let's see some video. Of you, because the ones you posted don't do much to make me want to run out and buy a blade from this place.


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## Dirty Dog

Carol said:


> Oh that's awkward!!
> 
> View attachment 18955



Isn't it though?


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## Tez3

What on earth is an 'Excalibur' sword? Some people have been watching too many films. while there was a historical King Arthur he was a 6th century CE king and his sword whether it had a name or not would have been made of iron with a bit of steel, as all Anglo-Saxon swords were.
Ashmolean Museum: Anglo-Saxon Discovery - Swords


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## Xue Sheng

Tez3 said:


> What on earth is an 'Excalibur' sword? Some people have been watching too many films. while there was a historical King Arthur he was a 6th century CE king and his sword whether it had a name or not would have been made of iron with a bit of steel, as all Anglo-Saxon swords were.
> Ashmolean Museum: Anglo-Saxon Discovery - Swords



And you call yourself British....You didn't know....King Aurthur got it from The Lady of the Lake, her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite, held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water, signifying by divine providence that , Arthur, was to carry Excalibur. That is why he was your king.

But then Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. You can't expect to wield supreme power just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you! 


yeah...I've seen to much Monthy Python


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## jks9199

PhotonGuy said:


> What I consider a good sword is a sword that is "battle ready" another words, a sword that is functional, is good at cutting, and makes a good weapon. Not something that just looks good on the wall. When I buy a sword from a company I research the company and see if its got good reviews and I see if the company hand forges the swords or mass produces them in a factory. The Canadian company that I am talking about in this case is Darksword Armory.



And what qualifies you to assess that?  Have you extensive training in a combat oriented sword system?  A good fencing foil is quite different in quality and design than a good arming sword or a good katana.  The qualities that make a good rapier are different than those of a cutlass or saber.  Give us some idea of your qualifications to speak; are you a master swordsmith?  skilled swordsman?


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## PhotonGuy

Dirty Dog said:


> Well then, let's see some video. Of you, because the ones you posted don't do much to make me want to run out and buy a blade from this place.



So what is your background and experience with swords?


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## Dirty Dog

PhotonGuy said:


> So what is your background and experience with swords?



I'm not the one claiming to be able to tell what's good and what isn't.

But if I were, I'd point out that although it's not something I currently practice, I've made blades from small daggers to bastard swords from raw steel. I've made a few (6-8") pattern welded blades.
I would say that my understanding of the theory outstripped my physical abilities when it came to forging steel, I could never develop the perfect consistency of technique required to produce the best blades. 
Of course, given the ripples in the blade shown in your YouTube examples, neither can the armoury you're defining as "good"...

There's not a lot of opportunity to train with or study European sword in the USA. I was lucky enough to spend 7 years in Europe in my younger days, and did get a chance to at least examine and handle a number of period weapons.
I've studied the training manuals of people like Agrippa, Silver, et al. Given the lack of places in the US to get period training, I fought in the SCA. Primarily rapier. I always used the Schlager, as it provided the closest replication of  the handling characteristics of a period rapier. I was considered fairly skilled, and at various times won pretty much every major tourney in the Outlands and Ansteorra.

So I'm not a world renowned expert by any means, but I do have some idea what I'm talking about.

Now, you will notice that unlike you, I provide a direct answer to a direct question. Your reputation might improve if you learn to do the same...


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## PhotonGuy

Well if I was to mention the man who I learned many of the stuff I know about swords it would probably open a whole different can of worms as he is a highly controversial person in the sword world. But, he is not the only person I've learned from. I've been to many renaissance faires as well as knife shows and I've spoken with many professional sword makers and dealers.


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## Dirty Dog

PhotonGuy said:


> Well if I was to mention the man who I learned many of the stuff I know about swords it would probably open a whole different can of worms as he is a highly controversial person in the sword world. But, he is not the only person I've learned from. I've been to many renaissance faires as well as knife shows and I've spoken with many professional sword makers and dealers.



And once again, you dodged the question. Are you surprised that your posts aren't taken very seriously?


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## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> Well if I was to mention the man who I learned many of the stuff I know about swords it would probably open a whole different can of worms as he is a highly controversial person in the sword world. But, he is not the only person I've learned from. I've been to many renaissance faires as well as knife shows and I've spoken with many professional sword makers and dealers.



"Renaissance fairs'? oh good grief.


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## jks9199

PhotonGuy said:


> Well if I was to mention the man who I learned many of the stuff I know about swords it would probably open a whole different can of worms as he is a highly controversial person in the sword world. But, he is not the only person I've learned from. I've been to many renaissance faires as well as knife shows and I've spoken with many professional sword makers and dealers.



So mention his name.  Give us some evidence that you actually have an idea of what you're talking about -- because, honestly, your posts so far don't.  I have a broad familiarity through study with some European swords and sword tactics, far from expert, but beyond novice.  I've done a fair amount of work with several Burmese sword systems.  I've done a little bit of fencing, as well.  Mostly foil, a touch of epee and saber.


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## hoshin1600

Ok ...ok.. please stop my sides hurt from laughing!!


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## PhotonGuy

Dirty Dog said:


> And once again, you dodged the question. Are you surprised that your posts aren't taken very seriously?



You mean about providing a direct answer?


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## PhotonGuy

jks9199 said:


> So mention his name.  Give us some evidence that you actually have an idea of what you're talking about -- because, honestly, your posts so far don't.  I have a broad familiarity through study with some European swords and sword tactics, far from expert, but beyond novice.  I've done a fair amount of work with several Burmese sword systems.  I've done a little bit of fencing, as well.  Mostly foil, a touch of epee and saber.



His name is Daniel and he is the president of the company called AngelSword. The website for AngelSword is Angel Sword - Custom Swords, Knives and Daggers and as I said he is a highly controversial person in the sword world.


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## Blindside

PhotonGuy said:


> His name is Daniel and he is the president of the company called AngelSword. The website for AngelSword is Angel Sword - Custom Swords, Knives and Daggers and as I said he is a highly controversial person in the sword world.



Oh, THAT guy, yup controversial is correct, is he still claiming that his top end blades have some sort of aura around them that people can sense?


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## PhotonGuy

Blindside said:


> Oh, THAT guy, yup controversial is correct, is he still claiming that his top end blades have some sort of aura around them that people can sense?



I told you that mentioning his name would open a whole different can of worms.


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## PhotonGuy

Tez3 said:


> "Renaissance fairs'? oh good grief.



What, you don't like renaissance faires?


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## Carol

I dunno.  Making swords break before they are impacted,  could be some real sorcery going on  



Carol said:


> Oh that's awkward!!
> 
> View attachment 18955


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## Xue Sheng

I'm sorry, but I can no longer resist, I have been restarting myself ever since I read the title of this post and I can no longer

"Canada makes good swords".... You mean the entire country....wow..... I was not aware the country of Canada was in the sword making business...who knew...


ok...sorry... it had to be done.....I feel better now...


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## Carol

Xue Sheng said:


> I'm sorry, but I can no longer resist, I have been restarting myself ever since I read the title of this post and I can no longer
> 
> "Canada makes good swords".... You mean the entire country....wow..... I was not aware the country of Canada was in the sword making business...who knew...
> 
> 
> ok...sorry... it had to be done.....I feel better now...



YALE
makes good locks


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## PhotonGuy

I meant the one particular company in Canada called Darksword Armory. I gave a wrong title to the thread.


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## jks9199

So... Have you worked with this guy?  Or just talked to him?  Have you worked with anyone in the various HEMA groups like ARMA?  Or just wandered around renn fests?  Done anything with these blades other than your own YouTube inspired testing?

Look, Cold Steel makes a lot of solid blades.  I'd trust them to hold up to quite a lot of use and abuse... but folks in the know through actual training say that some of their swords are off.  Their balance isn't quite right, they don't handle quite the way they should.  At the same time -- some of their stuff is great, and people equally in the know love it.  

All I'm after from you right this moment is simple: some evidence that you actually have some sort of qualification to have an opinion beyond wandering around and chatting with people.  I mean, I've wandered around jewelry stores -- but I couldn't give you a reliable estimate of the value of a diamond or do an appraisal.  I own a house, and can do a fair bit of maintenance, from carpentry to plumbing -- but that doesn't mean I'm skilled enough to do a pre-sale home inspection or appraisal.


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## Dirty Dog

PhotonGuy said:


> His name is Daniel and he is the president of the company called AngelSword. The website for AngelSword is Angel Sword - Custom Swords, Knives and Daggers and as I said he is a highly controversial person in the sword world.



So, basically, you don't know anything about swords except what you learn from talking to Ren Faire people and a guy who claims his swords are magic.

Do you still wonder why people don't seem to take you seriously?


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## PhotonGuy

jks9199 said:


> So... Have you worked with this guy?  Or just talked to him?  Have you worked with anyone in the various HEMA groups like ARMA?  Or just wandered around renn fests?  Done anything with these blades other than your own YouTube inspired testing?
> 
> Look, Cold Steel makes a lot of solid blades.  I'd trust them to hold up to quite a lot of use and abuse... but folks in the know through actual training say that some of their swords are off.  Their balance isn't quite right, they don't handle quite the way they should.  At the same time -- some of their stuff is great, and people equally in the know love it.
> 
> All I'm after from you right this moment is simple: some evidence that you actually have some sort of qualification to have an opinion beyond wandering around and chatting with people.  I mean, I've wandered around jewelry stores -- but I couldn't give you a reliable estimate of the value of a diamond or do an appraisal.  I own a house, and can do a fair bit of maintenance, from carpentry to plumbing -- but that doesn't mean I'm skilled enough to do a pre-sale home inspection or appraisal.



I've talked with Daniel and I have seen him do sword demonstrations, specifically the demonstrations on the tatami mats that I mentioned earlier and I've bought some of his products. I have been involved with ARMA and I've taken classes with them. I've also done tests of my own although not on tatami mats and I don't have any videos of myself doing tests. 
Anybody can have an opinion, you don't need qualifications for that. I never claimed to be an expert. All Im saying is that Im happy with the swords I've got but Im not saying everybody else should run out and buy them.


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## PhotonGuy

Dirty Dog said:


> So, basically, you don't know anything about swords except what you learn from talking to Ren Faire people and a guy who claims his swords are magic.
> 
> Do you still wonder why people don't seem to take you seriously?



I've also been to knife shows and as I stated in my previous post, I've taken classes with groups such as ARMA with people who are very knowledgeable on swords. As for Daniel saying his swords are magic, I never heard him make that claim.


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## Cirdan

Pff if you ain`t taking classes with Sven S. Svensson, Viking Fighting Supreme Grandmaster and Inheritor of the Horned Helmet, then you are just wasting your time.


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## Tez3

'Renaissance Faires'...I can't imagine what one looks like, 'faire' is to do/make in French and renaissance is rebirth so what on earth one does I have no idea. It sounds either commercial like 'Ye Olde English' which is awful or it's people poncing around in tights pretending to be De Medicis?


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## Tez3

This is the Renaissance, nice long read but better than 'renaissance faires' James Franklin: The Renaissance Myth


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## Chris Parker

PhotonGuy said:


> A good sword will be sharp and will cut well and have good hardness but will also be flexible and will have a blade that can easily bend. I would also want a sword that looks nice although for me that is a secondary concern. There are tests to determine if a sword is good, one of which is to try the sword on rolled up tatami mats.



Leaving off the rest of that post, the properties you're mentioning are not universal across all sword types, and "trying the sword on rolled up tatami mats" is not a test of the sword.



PhotonGuy said:


> What I consider a good sword is a sword that is "battle ready" another words, a sword that is functional, is good at cutting, and makes a good weapon. Not something that just looks good on the wall. When I buy a sword from a company I research the company and see if its got good reviews and I see if the company hand forges the swords or mass produces them in a factory. The Canadian company that I am talking about in this case is Darksword Armory.



"Battle ready" means nothing. What does "functional" mean to you? Surely it refers to "being applicable to a function/usage", so you first need to ascertain what usage that is "makes a good weapon"? What criteria is that? What makes a sword a good weapon? What would make it a bad one?

Reviews can mean nothing especially if you're dealing with "hand forged" (anything that has enough consistency in models isn't really going to be "hand forged", you realise).



PhotonGuy said:


> I usually don't test the sword myself although sometimes I try it out and cut stuff and I do check the flexibility of the blade. Mostly I watch videos where the same kind of sword is being tested and that way I know how well it performs. This sword in particular is a limited edition Excalibur sword produced by Darksword Armory and here are videos of it being used.



What do those videos show? To my eyes, all they show is a real lack of understanding of how a sword is used I mean, none of it was in any way "testing" the item itself 



PhotonGuy said:


> I do know how to use a sword correctly for cutting. And yes a katana is not swung like a baseball bat, its more like casting a fishing rod. However, usually I will watch cutting demonstrations done by people who have lots of experience cutting with swords.



How do you know that you know how to use a sword correctly? Nothing here is filling me with that idea And what type of sword? It really does make a difference...



PhotonGuy said:


> Cutting tatami mats is a test but its not the only test.



It's not a test of the sword 



PhotonGuy said:


> I do use the swords I buy but I also watch them being used in demonstrations. And as how I know what training and experience the people Im watching have, in most cases I don't. There are times when I will buy a sword from a renowned sword maker and I will see him in person do sword demonstrations, but lots of the time I watch videos where I don't know how good the person is doing the demonstration, so that's why I test the sword myself.



What do you use the swords for?



PhotonGuy said:


> Well if I was to mention the man who I learned many of the stuff I know about swords it would probably open a whole different can of worms as he is a highly controversial person in the sword world. But, he is not the only person I've learned from. I've been to many renaissance faires as well as knife shows and I've spoken with many professional sword makers and dealers.



So you're saying that you've learned most of your stuff from someone who most would consider controversial (to say the least) and you're unsure why you're being called out on what you actually know?



PhotonGuy said:


> I've talked with Daniel and I have seen him do sword demonstrations, specifically the demonstrations on the tatami mats that I mentioned earlier and I've bought some of his products. I have been involved with ARMA and I've taken classes with them. I've also done tests of my own although not on tatami mats and I don't have any videos of myself doing tests.
> Anybody can have an opinion, you don't need qualifications for that. I never claimed to be an expert. All Im saying is that Im happy with the swords I've got but Im not saying everybody else should run out and buy them.



What tests have you done? What have they tested? How have you ascertained their performance? 

And no, you don't need qualifications to have an opinion but you do if you are wanting your opinion to carry the weight of expertise and knowledge.


----------



## Xue Sheng

Cirdan said:


> Pff if you ain`t taking classes with Sven S. Svensson, Viking Fighting Supreme Grandmaster and Inheritor of the Horned Helmet, then you are just wasting your time.



You mean this guy







Yup, he's awesome.... but for some reason many of his students never finish the training...or for that matter ever seen again


----------



## PhotonGuy

Chris Parker said:


> "Battle ready" means nothing. What does "functional" mean to you? Surely it refers to "being applicable to a function/usage", so you first need to ascertain what usage that is&#8230; "makes a good weapon"? What criteria is that? What makes a sword a good weapon? What would make it a bad one?It's not a test of the sword&#8230;



I've stated earlier in this thread what I look for a sword and what my criteria for buying a sword is, so what do you consider a good sword? What do you look for?



Chris Parker said:


> What do those videos show? To my eyes, all they show is a real lack of understanding of how a sword is used&#8230; I mean, none of it was in any way "testing" the item itself&#8230;



Well then, how is a sword used? What is a good test of a sword?



Chris Parker said:


> How do you know that you know how to use a sword correctly? Nothing here is filling me with that idea&#8230; And what type of sword? It really does make a difference...



I've taken lessons in kendo, iaido, and kenjutsu, sometimes with a live blade. I've also taken classes with this organization called ARMA (Association for Renaissance Martial Arts), an organization on european medievel sword fighting and yes, a katana is used very differently than a european longsword. Now, might I ask what's your background on this stuff?



Chris Parker said:


> What do you use the swords for?



Right now I use them mostly as wall pieces although I want them to also work effectively as weapons should the need arise. For training and drills I mostly use wooden practice swords.



Chris Parker said:


> So you're saying that you've learned most of your stuff from someone who most would consider controversial (to say the least)&#8230; and you're unsure why you're being called out on what you actually know?



He is not the only person I've learned stuff about swords from. As I said before I've spoken to many people who make and sell swords for a living, and I've taken lessons as I mentioned above.



Chris Parker said:


> And no, you don't need qualifications to have an opinion&#8230; but you do if you are wanting your opinion to carry the weight of expertise and knowledge.



For my opinion to carry such weight in this case doesn't matter to me. I like the swords I've got. Im not saying everybody else has to agree on that or that they should buy them.


----------



## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> For my opinion to carry such weight in this case doesn't matter to me. I like the swords I've got. Im not saying everybody else has to agree on that or that they should buy them.




Then why don't you preface your posts and threads with 'I think'? You make blanket statements instead of indicating that it's your opinion. there's various phrases you can use _'In my opinion', 'I believe', 'I find' 'I think'_, then it's a basis for discussion instead of you making a statement that something is true and us having to say well no it's not.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Tez3 said:


> Then why don't you preface your posts and threads with 'I think'? You make blanket statements instead of indicating that it's your opinion. there's various phrases you can use _'In my opinion', 'I believe', 'I find' 'I think'_, then it's a basis for discussion instead of you making a statement that something is true and us having to say well no it's not.



Then I should make my posts like that, I stand corrected.


----------



## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> Then I should make my posts like that, I stand corrected.



It would make life easier or less combative at least on here. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but no one is entitled to their own facts.


----------



## Carol

There is also a big difference between being happy with an item, and the item being good. 


A hiker friend of mine was coming up to meet me for a hike on Saturday.  When she was more than halfway up to the meeting point, she realized she forgot her trekking poles.  She drove by a Wal-Mart just as it opened at 6am and picked up a pair for about $25.  My friend was going on a multi-day backpacking trip and wouldn't be down until Monday. But I was just joining her for the first peak so it was only a day trip for me.   We agreed to swap.  I gave her my $100 Komperdell poles, and took her cheapo poles.

Was I happy with the cheap Wal-Mart poles?  Absolutely.  

-- Using them meant my friend had the better poles for a more rigorous trip, and had a better chance of completing it safely.  That gives me more peace of mind.
-- The cheap poles were beastly heavy and had a shock absorbing mechanism -- neither are attributes I care for.  But that gave my arms an extra workout on a hike where such a thing was not unreasonable.

The cheap poles are certainly better than nothing.  They are a great value for $25.  And because she bought them, that meant we could swap poles and neither one of us had to worry about trekking without them.   Considering Wal-Mart was the only place open in rural NH at that hour, it was a sound purchase.

So, yes, I was happy and so was she. 

 But are they good poles?  No.  Absolutely not.


----------



## Cirdan

Xue Sheng said:


> Yup, he's awesome.... but for some reason many of his students never finish the training...or for that matter ever seen again



No shame in going to Valhalla, especially if sent by the hands of Master Sven himself.

And then there are the Valkyries..


----------



## Steve

I think renn festivals are great fun.   


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Dirty Dog

Steve said:


> I think renn festivals are great fun.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Sure they are. But to think that there's any historical accuracy in them, or that you can learn anything about sword making by chatting up a few people at them... that's foolishness.


----------



## donald1

Steve said:


> I think renn festivals are great fun.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Best part...  No silverware


----------



## PhotonGuy

You have to consider that some of the people at renaissance festivals make and sell swords for a living, so they know what they're talking about.


----------



## Carol

There are a lot of people that profit handsomely out of making and selling junk.


----------



## Dirty Dog

PhotonGuy said:


> You have to consider that some of the people at renaissance festivals make and sell swords for a living, so they know what they're talking about.



The world is full of used car salesmen who make a living selling junk to people who don't know any better. All that means is they know how to sell junk. It doesn't mean their junk is anything but junk.


----------



## donald1

Maybe you might get lucky and find someone who knows what there talking about,  now selling what is good completely different topic.  Finding both in this type of scenario would probably be very unlikely


----------



## PhotonGuy

I've also taken classes on swords and sword use and I've talked with people who are serious sword collectors.


----------



## jks9199

PhotonGuy said:


> I've talked with Daniel and I have seen him do sword demonstrations, specifically the demonstrations on the tatami mats that I mentioned earlier and I've bought some of his products. I have been involved with ARMA and I've taken classes with them. I've also done tests of my own although not on tatami mats and I don't have any videos of myself doing tests.
> Anybody can have an opinion, you don't need qualifications for that. I never claimed to be an expert. All Im saying is that Im happy with the swords I've got but Im not saying everybody else should run out and buy them.



Finally, an actual answer!  We truly live in an age of wonder!

Sure, anybody can have an opinion.  But if you want your opinion to carry any weight and credibility, you need to actually have some form of appropriate credentials/training/experience, and actually make sense.  I can certainly have an opinion on child birth.  I suspect most women who have given birth might suggest that my opinion is less than credible, since I'm not an OB/GYN and male.  I've only been a spectator...  and I just kind of think that they may not think that qualifies me very well.


----------



## jks9199

Tez3 said:


> 'Renaissance Faires'...I can't imagine what one looks like, 'faire' is to do/make in French and renaissance is rebirth so what on earth one does I have no idea. It sounds either commercial like 'Ye Olde English' which is awful or it's people poncing around in tights pretending to be De Medicis?



Here's one you can look at: Maryland Renaissance Festival. 

Personally, they can be fun, and some of the shows and demonstrations are neat -- but it's mostly a colorful way to separate my money from my wallet.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Another good place to get advice on swords is the Sword Buyers Guide, SBG. There website is this Sword Buyers Guide Home


----------



## elder999

Orergon makes good tortilla chips........


View attachment $th.jpg
(Juanita's are actually quite good!) :lfao:


----------



## jks9199

Dirty Dog said:


> Sure they are. But to think that there's any historical accuracy in them, or that you can learn anything about sword making by chatting up a few people at them... that's foolishness.



Ah...  There are actually some very knowledgeable folks at some of them.  Watch a guy making bows, for example, who was quite a skilled woodworker.  I especially was impressed with his shaving horse (not this guy, just an example) and he was an impressively deft hand with a spoke shave.  Stuff that would take me hours to do a barely acceptable job of he did in a few minutes.  There are some skilled smiths.  Of course, there are also plenty of folks there hawking their crap, too, who basically know enough to say "this pointy thing is a sword... unless it's a spear.  I'm pretty sure it's not a fork.  But I'm pretty, and look at my chest...  Thank you for spending your money on this, good sir."


(My apologies to this lovely lass; she was seized solely for imagery, and may well be incredibly intelligent and deadly with a sword.  I haven't a clue...)


----------



## jks9199

donald1 said:


> Best part...  No silverware



And giant turkey legs!
View attachment $IMG_1389.jpg


----------



## PhotonGuy

And the Mead.


----------



## Steve

PhotonGuy said:


> And the Mead.


Have you ever tried the honey liquor we call mead?  Gives a man a halo, does mead. - Friar Tuck


----------



## Dirty Dog

jks9199 said:


> Ah...  There are actually some very knowledgeable folks at some of them.  Watch a guy making bows, for example, who was quite a skilled woodworker.  I especially was impressed with his shaving horse (not this guy, just an example) and he was an impressively deft hand with a spoke shave.  Stuff that would take me hours to do a barely acceptable job of he did in a few minutes.  There are some skilled smiths.  Of course, there are also plenty of folks there hawking their crap, too, who basically know enough to say "this pointy thing is a sword... unless it's a spear.  I'm pretty sure it's not a fork.  But I'm pretty, and look at my chest...  Thank you for spending your money on this, good sir."View attachment 18958
> 
> (My apologies to this lovely lass; she was seized solely for imagery, and may well be incredibly intelligent and deadly with a sword.  I haven't a clue...)



I don't disagree that some of the craftspeople are skilled. I disagree that you can gain any appreciable degree of knowledge by chatting them up while they're either making something or selling something.


----------



## Tez3

jks9199 said:


> Here's one you can look at: Maryland Renaissance Festival.
> 
> Personally, they can be fun, and some of the shows and demonstrations are neat -- but it's mostly a colorful way to separate my money from my wallet.



Mmm, it's more a pastiche 'Merry England' really, looking at the storyline though, the Howards are still going strong btw, it's still a rich and powerful family, the late Sir David Frost was married to a Howard. We still have meadery's and we still have people who make bows, many of our buildings are older than 'the Renassiance, though here we don't tend to call it that at all. Still I imagine it may be fun even though the history is a tad dubious actually the word that comes to mind is naff but hey each to their own lol.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Tez3 said:


> Mmm, it's more a pastiche 'Merry England' really, looking at the storyline though, the Howards are still going strong btw, it's still a rich and powerful family, the late Sir David Frost was married to a Howard. We still have meadery's and we still have people who make bows, many of our buildings are older than 'the Renassiance, though here we don't tend to call it that at all. Still I imagine it may be fun even though the history is a tad dubious actually the word that comes to mind is naff but hey each to their own lol.



Do you have sword makers?


----------



## jks9199

Tez3 said:


> Mmm, it's more a pastiche 'Merry England' really, looking at the storyline though, the Howards are still going strong btw, it's still a rich and powerful family, the late Sir David Frost was married to a Howard. We still have meadery's and we still have people who make bows, many of our buildings are older than 'the Renassiance, though here we don't tend to call it that at all. Still I imagine it may be fun even though the history is a tad dubious actually the word that comes to mind is naff but hey each to their own lol.



The history is beyond dubious.  They may have a few historical figures, and some groups try to keep more strictly period than others... but a ren faire is not like a visit to Colonial Williamsburg where they (publicly) try to research and recreate historical eras.  (And, incidentally separate you from your money...)


----------



## Transk53

Now I'm inspired to forge a good old Broadsword. Just got remember where I left the Blue Peter instructions.


----------



## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> Do you have sword makers?




What do you think? Of course we do, some companies are hundreds of years old. They make real swords too not wall hangers, this is what I have and I wore it with pride you can be sure. Royal Air Force Ladies Sword - Pooley Sword

another company here http://www.crisp-and-sons.com/manufacturing.htm


----------



## Tez3

Transk53 said:


> Now I'm inspired to forge a good old Broadsword. Just got remember where I left the Blue Peter instructions.



I'll get the sticky back plastic. :cheers:


----------



## PhotonGuy

Tez3 said:


> What do you think? Of course we do, some companies are hundreds of years old. They make real swords too not wall hangers, this is what I have and I wore it with pride you can be sure. Royal Air Force Ladies Sword - Pooley Sword
> 
> another company here Crisp & Sons - Sword Cutlers - Military & Ceremonial Sword Refurbishment, UK



That does look like a nice sword. Here we also have sword makers who make real swords that are not just for decoration. Anyway, I do know you also still have knights, but they usually don't use swords that much anymore do they.


----------



## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> That does look like a nice sword. Here we also have sword makers who make real swords that are not just for decoration. Anyway, I do know you also still have knights, but they usually don't use swords that much anymore do they.



All military officers and warrant officers have a sword, on the occasions they wear them, if threatened they will use them. They can also be used in war .
Jack Churchill - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Steve

I'm a knight.   Went to a medieval dinner at the castle in Cochem Germany in 1989.   I competed against 5 other guys in several contests and ended up winning.  It was fun.   I don't have a sword, though.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Carol

Steve said:


> I'm a knight.   Went to a medieval dinner at the castle in Cochem Germany in 1989.   I competed against 5 other guys in several contests and ended up winning.  It was fun.   I don't have a sword, though.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I've been benighted.   Does that count? :boing2:


----------



## Tez3

Steve said:


> I'm a knight.   Went to a medieval dinner at the castle in Cochem Germany in 1989.   I competed against 5 other guys in several contests and ended up winning.  It was fun.   I don't have a sword, though.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I know Cochem, when we were posted in Germany we all used to zoom down the autobahn and camp there at weekends. The campsites used to be full of Brit service people.


----------



## Steve

Tez3 said:


> I know Cochem, when we were posted in Germany we all used to zoom down the autobahn and camp there at weekends. The campsites used to be full of Brit service people.



I was stationed at Hahn ab, and spent most of my off duty time drinking beer or wine somewhere along the mosel river.   

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------



## donald1

What about swinging swords or telling tall tales


----------



## Transk53

donald1 said:


> What about swinging swords or telling tall tales



You would probably get a nice tall bier. Mind you if you could get a sword there, it would probably be made by VW and come with fluffy dice (a phenomenon always mistaken as being Essex) and Sat-Nav.


----------



## donald1

Nooo...  That's how they get you..... 
Person walks up and hands you a big mug,  right after straight to sparring 

I'll just take some bratwurst and sauerkraut and pretzel bread

I want to atleast remember my good time...


----------



## Steve

Bavarian Jiu Jitsu ftw. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------



## Transk53

Never had proper sauerkraut. Have heard that it is really quite nice.


----------



## Tez3

Frites and mayonnaise, still love that!


----------



## donald1

Transk53 said:


> Never had proper sauerkraut. Have heard that it is really quite nice.



You should try it


----------



## Tez3

donald1 said:


> You should try it



Ugh, not a chance ever. I hate most veggies with a passion you cannot conceive of lol.


----------



## Transk53

Tez3 said:


> Ugh, not a chance ever. I hate most veggies with a passion you cannot conceive of lol.



Yeah, most my veg intake involved a kebab. Broccoli though, with loads of gloopy gravy.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Tez3 said:


> Ugh, not a chance ever. I hate most veggies with a passion you cannot conceive of lol.



So you don't like french fries?


----------



## donald1

Tez3 said:


> Frites and mayonnaise, still love that!






PhotonGuy said:


> So you don't like french fries?



If I got my food correctly frites are kinda like french fries 


Tez3 said:


> Ugh, not a chance ever. I hate most veggies with a passion you cannot conceive of lol.



Who needs vegetables when you got bacon! 

Some vegetables are okay,  but not a alternative for meat and preferably not on the pizza


----------



## Transk53

Frites are deep fried, so yeah I guess.


----------



## Steve

Frites are French fries.   Pommes frites.  In Germany they are often served with mayonnaise.   In America with ketchup.   The Canadians do it right, though: chicken gravy and cheese curds.   Yummy.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Transk53

Steve said:


> Frites are French fries.   Pommes frites.  In Germany they are often served with mayonnaise.   In America with ketchup.   The Canadians do it right, though: chicken gravy and cheese curds.   Yummy.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Mmm, okay. How does a banana one fit?


----------



## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> So you don't like french fries?



What do you think 'frites' are?


----------



## Tez3

Transk53 said:


> Mmm, okay. How does a banana one fit?



tightly? :lfao:


----------



## Transk53

Tez3 said:


> tightly? :lfao:



Yeah, okay  What I meant was, the term seems to have jumped. At the local Chippy you would ask for *Banana Fritters*, or am I missing something here?


----------



## Tez3

Transk53 said:


> Yeah, okay  What I meant was, the term seems to have jumped. At the local Chippy you would ask for *Banana Fritters*, or am I missing something here?



We'd get banana fritters from the Chinese, covered with syrup! Up north you can get fried Mars bars though and in Middlesboro you get the most disgusting fried food ever 'the Parmo' horrid. Look it up I can't bring myself to describe it!
I have just finished a fast,( so no I don't eat bacon!) and have just stuffed my face lol.


----------



## donald1

Tez3 said:


> We'd get banana fritters from the Chinese, covered with syrup! Up north you can get fried Mars bars though and in Middlesboro you get the most disgusting fried food ever 'the Parmo' horrid. Look it up I can't bring myself to describe it!
> I have just finished a fast,( *so no I don't eat bacon*!) and have just stuffed my face lol.


----------



## Tez3

donald1 said:


>




Bacon tends not to feature in many Jewish recipe books. :boing2:


----------



## donald1

Tez3 said:


> Bacon tends not to feature in many Jewish recipe books. :boing2:



Yes,  pork would be wrong if you were kosher but turkey is not mentioned as a wrong...  THUS TURKEY BACON WAS BORN


----------



## PhotonGuy

OK so how about potato skins topped with cheese and bacon and with sour cream too. And if you don't eat pig bacon it can be turkey bacon, or without any bacon.


----------



## Steve

Transk53 said:


> Yeah, okay  What I meant was, the term seems to have jumped. At the local Chippy you would ask for *Banana Fritters*, or am I missing something here?



LOL.  A fritter as I know it is some kind of fried dough.  Frites, or more specifically Pommes Frites are fried potatoes.


----------



## donald1

Swords and food,  that's a good combination,  weapon spare,  eat,  30 minute rest,  then weapon spare some more


----------



## Transk53

Tez3 said:


> We'd get banana fritters from the Chinese, covered with syrup! Up north you can get fried Mars bars though and in Middlesboro you get the most disgusting fried food ever 'the Parmo' horrid. Look it up I can't bring myself to describe it!
> I have just finished a fast,( so no I don't eat bacon!) and have just stuffed my face lol.



Each to their own. Pork joints, sausages and what not I could do without. Bacon though, especially a nice smoked slab of gammon, could not. Wish those high street fast food vendors would start selling stew Hairy Bikers style. 

Yeah my ateries have just decided that they are leaving me. Wow, I can eat a lot of *****, like the doner kebab. This though!!


----------



## Tez3

Transk53 said:


> Each to their own. Pork joints, sausages and what not I could do without. Bacon though, especially a nice smoked slab of gammon, could not. Wish those high street fast food vendors would start selling stew Hairy Bikers style.
> 
> Yeah my ateries have just decided that they are leaving me. Wow, I can eat a lot of *****, like the doner kebab. This though!!
> 
> View attachment 18963




Told you! it's disgusting!


----------



## donald1

Yeah they fry almost everything what's next...  Fried chocolate,  fried pizza...  Fried fried chicken?  :lfao:


----------



## Chris Parker

PhotonGuy said:


> I've stated earlier in this thread what I look for a sword and what my criteria for buying a sword is, so what do you consider a good sword? What do you look for?



Your criteria was a bunch of words, bluntly as I implied, most of what you said didn't mean anything by itself, hence my questions for clarification (that you've ignored). In terms of what I look for, that depends on what I'm using the sword for I look for different things in a collection piece as I do in a training tool and, even then, a training tool for Iai is different to a training tool for tameshigiri. which can also change depending on the experience level of the people using it (my shinken is really for relative beginners I'm looking at another with a bit more, uh, finesse to the blade we'll see how that pans out). But, in broad terms, I look at the "health" of the blade, the sori, the cross-section, the balance, the fittings (how tight the ito-maki is, how well the tsuba and tsuka fit, how many seppa are needed, and so on), and more. My shinken was designed to be rather blade heavy, with a chu-kissaki, and a generous sori, primarily to be a medium-heavy use tameshigiri blade which would be quite forgiving of a poor technique (it's for my students, more than for me). My Iaito is a lot lighter, much better balanced, with a ko-kissaki, a slightly lesser sori, and so on. Using something like that (as a shinken, obviously) for tameshigiri, and your technique had better be right on, otherwise you're going to bend, or break the blade.



PhotonGuy said:


> Well then, how is a sword used? What is a good test of a sword?



I'll tell you how it's not used it's not used to hack into four-by-two. Nor is it used to "cut" another sword that's set up in a rigid stand, not allowing it to absorb the impact, and the stuff with the bottles? Yeah not so much there, either.

With regards to a good "test" of a sword, again, you need to clarify what the sword is being used for first-off then look at tests appropriate to that usage. But here's the thing none of what has been shown are really tests of the blade they're showmanship (and poor at that) tameshigiri, the way it's done today, is not a test of the sword 



PhotonGuy said:


> I've taken lessons in kendo, iaido, and kenjutsu, sometimes with a live blade.



What systems? "Kenjutsu" by itself doesn't mean anything it could be complete garbage, made up by someone without a clue (not inconceivable), or it could be a genuine system from there, what length of time are we talking? You say you've taken "lessons" are we talking three here? Or three years? Or three months? What exactly is your exposure? Are we talking Seitei Iaido, or something else? 

And, frankly, you should have done none of it with a live blade. That's a huge red flag, to be honest.



PhotonGuy said:


> I've also taken classes with this organization called ARMA (Association for Renaissance Martial Arts), an organization on european medievel sword fighting and yes, a katana is used very differently than a european longsword.



Yeah, I know the ARMA guys to be honest, they can be fairly hit and miss and, again, some "classes" doesn't mean much what did you cover? To what depth? How much did you really get a handle on?



PhotonGuy said:


> Now, might I ask what's your background on this stuff?



Wow, it's been quite a while since I was asked that ha!

Decades. My background is decades. 

I have been training with sword since 1993, including Koryu Kenjutsu (two separate ryu-ha), Muso Shinden Ryu Iaido, the sword methods of Hontai Yoshin Ryu, Kukishin Ryu, Togakure Ryu, and I have more than a passing familiarity with some few dozen more systems. I have been around swords for this length of time, including having a modest collection at one point, and have learnt about sword appraisal, polishing, crafting, and more. 



PhotonGuy said:


> Right now I use them mostly as wall pieces although I want them to also work effectively as weapons should the need arise. For training and drills I mostly use wooden practice swords.



"Should the need arise"?!?! What the hell?!?!

To the second part, what training and drills? 



PhotonGuy said:


> He is not the only person I've learned stuff about swords from. As I said before I've spoken to many people who make and sell swords for a living, and I've taken lessons as I mentioned above.



Sure, but the way that reads is a couple of lessons here and there nothing that I'd class as really substantial enough to mean anything can you clarify?



PhotonGuy said:


> For my opinion to carry such weight in this case doesn't matter to me. I like the swords I've got. Im not saying everybody else has to agree on that or that they should buy them.



As has been mentioned, you state things as an absolute, as if your opinion does carry weight. If it doesn't matter to you, then you may want to look to how you phrase such things.



PhotonGuy said:


> You have to consider that some of the people at renaissance festivals make and sell swords for a living, so they know what they're talking about.



Er no. I've been in sales far too long to think that 



PhotonGuy said:


> I've also taken classes on swords and sword use and I've talked with people who are serious sword collectors.



Yeah still gonna need some clarification on these "classes" 



PhotonGuy said:


> Another good place to get advice on swords is the Sword Buyers Guide, SBG. There website is this Sword Buyers Guide Home



Er okay 

You do realise that you've posted in the sword section most of the posters (and readers) in this section are pretty well up to date on who to listen to 



PhotonGuy said:


> That does look like a nice sword. Here we also have sword makers who make real swords that are not just for decoration. Anyway, I do know you also still have knights, but they usually don't use swords that much anymore do they.



"Real swords that are not just for decoration"? Do you have a major problem with dragons there?

Honestly, I have little understanding of what you're saying here are you just saying what you think things are like, or do you actually have some knowledge to back any of this up?


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## pgsmith

Seriously Chris? After all the talk of bacon and beer, you're going to attempt to drag this thread back on topic? 
  You know from the fellow's posts pretty much exactly what his experience level with swords is.


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## elder999

pgsmith said:


> Seriously Chris? After all the talk of bacon and beer, you're going to attempt to drag this thread back on topic?
> You know from the fellow's posts pretty much exactly what his experience level with swords is.



Because sometimes......sometimes, you just can't let the monumental ignorance stay unanswered-or even the minor ignorance. Because _the stupid_

View attachment $the stupid.jpg


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## Chris Parker

pgsmith said:


> Seriously Chris? After all the talk of bacon and beer, you're going to attempt to drag this thread back on topic?
> You know from the fellow's posts pretty much exactly what his experience level with swords is.



Ha, yeah&#8230; sorry bout that&#8230; but you know I don't like leaving questions unanswered&#8230; and come on, Paul, he asked what my sword background was! I mean&#8230; he asked what my background was! Ha!


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## PhotonGuy

Chris Parker said:


> Ha, yeah&#8230; sorry bout that&#8230; but you know I don't like leaving questions unanswered&#8230; and come on, Paul, he asked what my sword background was! I mean&#8230; he asked what my background was! Ha!



You ask what my background is, why shouldn't I ask about yours?


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## Transk53

PhotonGuy said:


> You ask what my background is, why shouldn't I ask about yours?



Maybe because you are yet to validate your own background. Don't know Chris or his background, and yeah his posts can be bit hard to read for someone like me, but still, I do believe he asks valid questions. He appears to know his stuff, do you?


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## pgsmith

PhotonGuy said:


> You ask what my background is, why shouldn't I ask about yours?



No reason at all. However, if you'll notice, Chris answered your question directly and succinctly. This is opposed to your answer to the same question, which was vague and unhelpful. You seem to work very hard to make yourself seem knowledgeable, but it always tends to show just how much you *don't* know about whatever subject you brought up. Asking questions is not a bad thing. Pretending to be something you're not is.


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## jks9199

Transk53 said:


> Maybe because you are yet to validate your own background. Don't know Chris or his background, and yeah his posts can be bit hard to read for someone like me, but still, I do believe he asks valid questions. He appears to know his stuff, do you?



In context, I'd say it was a fair question.  But also one that could be answered by reviewing the board.  Chris has addressed elements of his training numerous times.  You've pretty much complained about your training...  and Chris answered the first time you asked.  You...  Yeah, not so prompt or directly answered.

So...  credibility win on swords?  Chris, hands down, I'd say.


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## donald1

Sorry for offtopic but one question could dao training be considered similar to sword training (yes I know dao translates to big knife not sword)  but technically it's as long as a lot of swords...  Or does it just go as knife training plain simple


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## pgsmith

donald1 said:


> Sorry for offtopic but one question could dao training be considered similar to sword training (yes I know dao translates to big knife not sword) but technically it's as long as a lot of swords... Or does it just go as knife training plain simple



Whole lotta things wrong with your question there Donald. Dao actually refers to a Chinese saber, as opposed to a jian (straight sword). There are a number of different _kinds_ of dao, and it depends upon the tradition that you're learning as to what the training consists of. Since I'm a great lover of analogies, here's one that seems appropriate to me ... it's like asking about "band practice" without specifying what sort of instrument in what type of band. Lead guitar in a garage band would be much different from tuba in a marching band. 

  So, "dao training" is about as generic a term as "sword training", and pretty much as useless for conversational interaction.


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## donald1

pgsmith said:


> Whole lotta things wrong with your question there Donald. Dao actually refers to a Chinese saber, as opposed to a jian (straight sword). There are a number of different _kinds_ of dao, and it depends upon the tradition that you're learning as to what the training consists of. Since I'm a great lover of analogies, here's one that seems appropriate to me ... it's like asking about "band practice" without specifying what sort of instrument in what type of band. Lead guitar in a garage band would be much different from tuba in a marching band.
> 
> So, "dao training" is about as generic a term as "sword training", and pretty much as useless for conversational interaction.



I practice with liuyedao i atleast think this is a liuyedao


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## Xue Sheng

donald1 said:


> I practice with liuyedao i atleast think this is a liuyedao



Close, but no. This is a Liuyedao







What you linked was a Niuweidao


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## PhotonGuy

Transk53 said:


> Maybe because you are yet to validate your own background. Don't know Chris or his background, and yeah his posts can be bit hard to read for someone like me, but still, I do believe he asks valid questions. He appears to know his stuff, do you?



As I said before, my preferences in swords are my preferences and everybody else doesn't have the same preferences I do. I like the swords I've got but that doesn't mean other people have to like them too. So there is no point in people knowing my background on swords, Im not trying to push my preferences on them.


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## PhotonGuy

pgsmith said:


> No reason at all. However, if you'll notice, Chris answered your question directly and succinctly. This is opposed to your answer to the same question, which was vague and unhelpful. You seem to work very hard to make yourself seem knowledgeable, but it always tends to show just how much you *don't* know about whatever subject you brought up. Asking questions is not a bad thing. Pretending to be something you're not is.



I don't claim to be knowledgeable on swords, Im just happy with the swords I've got. That doesn't mean other people have to think they're good swords.


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## donald1

Xue Sheng said:


> Close, but no. This is a Liuyedao
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What you linked was a Niuweidao



... I always called it a liuyedao...  But now I know,  thanks pgsmith and xue sheng


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## Xue Sheng

donald1 said:


> ... I always called it a liuyedao...  But now I know,  thanks pgsmith and xue sheng




No worries, I would only expect an overly obsessed CMA whack job (or as my wife says, "martial arts crazy") such as myself to even notice


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## PhotonGuy

jks9199 said:


> In context, I'd say it was a fair question.  But also one that could be answered by reviewing the board.  Chris has addressed elements of his training numerous times.  You've pretty much complained about your training...  and Chris answered the first time you asked.  You...  Yeah, not so prompt or directly answered.
> 
> So...  credibility win on swords?  Chris, hands down, I'd say.



My complaints aren't so much with my training or my dojo but rather with some of the attitudes and stereotypes that are prevalent in the martial arts community itself but that is another topic. As for being credible on swords, I was not out to win in the first place. Nobody has to agree with me on what would make a good sword.


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## Chris Parker

PhotonGuy said:


> You ask what my background is, why shouldn't I ask about yours?



Honestly, there's no reason you shouldn't ask. By all means, I welcome the question however, the simple fact here is that my bona fides in this regard are fairly well established (look through the threads in this section for my posts, for example), whereas your posts show rather the opposite. So, by all means, ask whatever you want in regards to my knowledge and understanding but at least have the common courtesy to answer the questions posed to yourself as well. There have been a number I've asked that you have simply ignored ones that could have cleared up your level of understanding quite quickly.

Now, with that said



PhotonGuy said:


> As I said before, my preferences in swords are my preferences and everybody else doesn't have the same preferences I do. I like the swords I've got but that doesn't mean other people have to like them too. So there is no point in people knowing my background on swords, Im not trying to push my preferences on them.



This isn't what you said in the thread title, the opening post, your second post, and so on.



PhotonGuy said:


> I don't claim to be knowledgeable on swords, Im just happy with the swords I've got. That doesn't mean other people have to think they're good swords.



Actually, you did claim to be knowledgable about swords. That's the premise of the thread and most of your posts in it.



PhotonGuy said:


> My complaints aren't so much with my training or my dojo but rather with some of the attitudes and stereotypes that are prevalent in the martial arts community itself but that is another topic.



"Attitudes and stereotypes"?!? Dude, I have no idea what you're going on about 



PhotonGuy said:


> As for being credible on swords, I was not out to win in the first place. Nobody has to agree with me on what would make a good sword.



Let's look at your first two posts, then 

The OP:



PhotonGuy said:


> I just got a sword from a Canadian company. I must say, Canada makes good swords, or at least the company I got the sword from does.



You state pretty simply that "Canada makes *good* swords" which is a qualitative comment. It is a comment stating that the sword you purchased is good (quality) not "Hey, I got this sword, and I really like it" no, your comment was "these are good swords". Here's the thing you liking something is not equal to it being good. I really like terrible, lousy, groan-inducing jokes that doesn't make them "good" jokes I really like trashy popcorn films are they "good"? Nope!

Then, when asked what qualified you to make the observation that the swords were "good" (note: not that you liked them, that they were "good"), the response was:



PhotonGuy said:


> First of all, the material its made out of. Some people who don't know much about swords erroneously believe that stainless steel is a good material when in fact its very poor. Stainless steel is way to brittle to make good swords and a sword made of it doesn't serve much purpose other than being a wall decoration. Carbon steel such as AISI 10XX or AISI 5160 are good materials. Also, its much better to have a hand forged sword than a sword that's entirely factory produced. A good sword will be sharp and will cut well and have good hardness but will also be flexible and will have a blade that can easily bend. I would also want a sword that looks nice although for me that is a secondary concern. There are tests to determine if a sword is good, one of which is to try the sword on rolled up tatami mats.



Which is a list of aspects of the crafting of the weapon that you think are important (missing the point and actual question you were asked) with such comments as talking about what "people who don't know much about swords erroneously believe" but you weren't looking to be seen as knowledgable?

Do you want to try again?


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## Chris Parker

Transk53 said:


> Maybe because you are yet to validate your own background. Don't know Chris or his background, and yeah his posts can be bit hard to read for someone like me, but still, I do believe he asks valid questions. He appears to know his stuff, do you?



Ha, sorry about that if there's ever any question you have, or want any clarification of anything I've said, just ask more than happy to clarify anything you need.


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## Transk53

PhotonGuy said:


> As I said before, my preferences in swords are my preferences and everybody else doesn't have the same preferences I do. I like the swords I've got but that doesn't mean other people have to like them too. So there is no point in people knowing my background on swords, Im not trying to push my preferences on them.



I was not asking about preferences.


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## Tez3

I like swords, in fact I like most edged weapons, my knowledge of them however is confined to what I read. I know how to use a knife pretty well as taught by RM's and I know if a blade I use in that circumstance will do what I wan, I know _a bit_ about kukris having spent a lot of time on shift with a Gurkha shift partner but that's it. I love the pictures of the Chinese weapons, they look lovely but that's it as far as I know so reading what the knowledgeable people write is great, making the mistake of thinking I know about things because I've bought a pretty sword or have read up a bit is touching on the arrogant I think but maybe that's just me. 

Knowing what you don't know is probably a wise saying to bear in mind. :supcool:


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## Transk53

Well I like the sword carried by Clive Owen in King Arthur. The Roman Gladius. Have not seen a real one, other than a museum piece, but held a replica. Obviously can't speak about its weight and balance, but it got the imagination working.


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## PhotonGuy

Chris Parker said:


> This isn't what you said in the thread title, the opening post, your second post, and so on.



That is what I meant. I should've said so.



Chris Parker said:


> Actually, you did claim to be knowledgable about swords. That's the premise of the thread&#8230; and most of your posts in it.



 Then I should've worded it differently.



Chris Parker said:


> "Attitudes and stereotypes"?!? Dude, I have no idea what you're going on about&#8230;



Like I said its another topic.





Chris Parker said:


> Let's look at your first two posts, then&#8230;
> 
> The OP:
> 
> 
> 
> You state pretty simply that "Canada makes *good* swords"&#8230; which is a qualitative comment. It is a comment stating that the sword you purchased is good (quality)&#8230; not "Hey, I got this sword, and I really like it"&#8230; no, your comment was "these are good swords". Here's the thing&#8230; you liking something is not equal to it being good. I really like terrible, lousy, groan-inducing jokes&#8230; that doesn't make them "good" jokes&#8230; I really like trashy popcorn films&#8230; are they "good"? Nope!
> 
> Then, when asked what qualified you to make the observation that the swords were "good" (note: not that you liked them, that they were "good"), the response was:
> 
> 
> 
> Which is a list of aspects of the crafting of the weapon that you think are important (missing the point and actual question you were asked)&#8230; with such comments as talking about what "people who don't know much about swords erroneously believe"&#8230; but you weren't looking to be seen as knowledgable?
> 
> Do you want to try again?



Well then what I meant was that I like the sword I got from Canada. Im not saying everybody would say its good but I like it. And as for trashy popcorn films, if you say they're good than they're good according to your preference. Really, good is a matter of opinion. If there aren't that many other people who like such films it doesn't mean the films aren't good it means they aren't popular. Good is a matter of preference.


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## PhotonGuy

Transk53 said:


> I was not asking about preferences.



If your asking how knowledgeable I am on swords, I will admit Im not as knowledgeable as some of the people on this board. However, I will not buy a stainless steel blade and I would want something hand forged over something factory made.


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## Chris Parker

PhotonGuy said:


> That is what I meant. I should've said so.



Hmm&#8230; look, to be honest, I'm not sure about that&#8230; the consistency in your phrasing doesn't really show any real opening for such miscommunication. Frankly, this all sounds like a back-peddle after you realised that what you thought you knew didn't really rate against the other knowledge here.

And I'm still waiting for answers to, well, pretty much all of my questions so far&#8230; such as which form of kenjutsu, iai etc that you did, how long, and so on&#8230; 



PhotonGuy said:


> Then I should've worded it differently.



Or, perhaps, simply written what you meant&#8230; if you actually did mean something completely opposite to what you wrote, of course&#8230; 



PhotonGuy said:


> Like I said its another topic.



Even as another topic it doesn't make any sense&#8230; but there's little point going through those issues of yours here.



PhotonGuy said:


> Well then what I meant was that I like the sword I got from Canada. Im not saying everybody would say its good but I like it. And as for trashy popcorn films, if you say they're good than they're good according to your preference. Really, good is a matter of opinion. If there aren't that many other people who like such films it doesn't mean the films aren't good it means they aren't popular. Good is a matter of preference.



No, it's not. That's the thing. "Good" is not a matter of preference&#8230; "like" is. "Good" is a qualitative statement&#8230; it is a claim of quality, not preference. You may note that I never even suggested the "popcorn films" were good&#8230; or even that I thought they were good&#8230; just that I liked them. That's the difference. 



PhotonGuy said:


> If your asking how knowledgeable I am on swords, I will admit Im not as knowledgeable as some of the people on this board.



Well, yeah&#8230; of course, the way you're trying to tell us where we can learn about swords (the post telling us to go to Sword Buyers&#8230 may show that as also rather disingenuous&#8230; 



PhotonGuy said:


> However, I will not buy a stainless steel blade and I would want something hand forged over something factory made.



You do know that there are plenty of non-stainless factory made weapons around as well, yeah?


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## PhotonGuy

Chris Parker said:


> Hmm&#8230; look, to be honest, I'm not sure about that&#8230; the consistency in your phrasing doesn't really show any real opening for such miscommunication. Frankly, this all sounds like a back-peddle after you realised that what you thought you knew didn't really rate against the other knowledge here.



OK so Im back-peddling, so what?



Chris Parker said:


> And I'm still waiting for answers to, well, pretty much all of my questions so far&#8230; such as which form of kenjutsu, iai etc that you did, how long, and so on&#8230;



I did it for about a year. I could give the website of the place where I did it. 



Chris Parker said:


> Even as another topic it doesn't make any sense&#8230; but there's little point going through those issues of yours here.


Then we wont go through them.



Chris Parker said:


> No, it's not. That's the thing. "Good" is not a matter of preference&#8230; "like" is. "Good" is a qualitative statement&#8230; it is a claim of quality, not preference. You may note that I never even suggested the "popcorn films" were good&#8230; or even that I thought they were good&#8230; just that I liked them. That's the difference.



It depends on how you use it. "Good," can be used for preference. Somebody might see a movie and say the movie was good. Other people might not agree and think the movie was terrible. Still, the person who liked the movie says its good, so they're using it for preference. So there you have it. 



Chris Parker said:


> Well, yeah&#8230; of course, the way you're trying to tell us where we can learn about swords (the post telling us to go to Sword Buyers&#8230 may show that as also rather disingenuous&#8230;



Right. Well than that's settled, and we can move on.



Chris Parker said:


> You do know that there are plenty of non-stainless factory made weapons around as well, yeah?



I know, and I would not buy one.


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## Chris Parker

Sigh..



PhotonGuy said:


> OK so Im back-peddling, so what?



So when you say that you originally meant to just say you liked the swords, you're frankly lying. You've been caught out, and are trying to minimise the damage.



PhotonGuy said:


> I did it for about a year. I could give the website of the place where I did it.


 
Did what for "about a year"? That's the damn question! Give the website, name the system, something that tells me what you actually did.



PhotonGuy said:


> Then we wont go through them.



Hmm. 



PhotonGuy said:


> It depends on how you use it. "Good," can be used for preference. Somebody might see a movie and say the movie was good. Other people might not agree and think the movie was terrible. Still, the person who liked the movie says its good, so they're using it for preference. So there you have it.



"I think it was good" is different to "these items are good" (quality). Note which one you used.



PhotonGuy said:


> Right. Well than that's settled, and we can move on.



Hmm.



PhotonGuy said:


> I know, and I would not buy one.



Really? Do you know the difference? Do you know why you wouldn't buy one? Is it based on anything you actually know, or is it based on some false assumption like most of the rest of your posts?


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## PhotonGuy

Chris Parker said:


> Sigh..
> 
> 
> 
> So when you say that you originally meant to just say you liked the swords, you're frankly lying. You've been caught out, and are trying to minimise the damage.



I didn't realize that I didn't know as much about swords as some of the people on this board and so yes, I am trying to minimize the damage.





Chris Parker said:


> Did what for "about a year"? That's the damn question! Give the website, name the system, something that tells me what you actually did.



This is the website NJ Aikikai and Budokan




Chris Parker said:


> "I think it was good" is different to "these items are good" (quality). Note which one you used.



Than I should've said it like that.



Chris Parker said:


> Really? Do you know the difference? Do you know why you wouldn't buy one? Is it based on anything you actually know, or is it based on some false assumption like most of the rest of your posts?



Does it matter?


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## Chris Parker

PhotonGuy said:


> I didn't realize that I didn't know as much about swords as some of the people on this board and so yes, I am trying to minimize the damage.



Okay. Hopefully you've learnt something from this thread, then?



PhotonGuy said:


> This is the website NJ Aikikai and Budokan



Oh dear&#8230; "Tenshin Ryu"? Fred Lovret's system? 

Look, I'll be a little blunt here&#8230; there are some huge question marks over anything related to Fred's systems&#8230; he has some very questionable "ranks" amongst some of his legit training, and created Tenshin Ryu as his expression (inaccurate) of "samurai martial arts"&#8230; but, to be honest, the 16 second video on the home page of the guy swinging around his bokuto like it was a baseball bat showed me all I needed to know about the quality of sword at that school&#8230; 

And you should never, and I will repeat here, never have done any of that with a live blade. If you were given one in the school to use, that's an accident waiting to happen.



PhotonGuy said:


> Than I should've said it like that.



Okay.



PhotonGuy said:


> Does it matter?



Yes. If you're going to say that you aren't going to buy something, it'd help to know that you're making that decision based on actual knowledge and insight&#8230; after all, you might be ruling out some items that are very well suited to your needs due to an inaccurate bias. I mean, you'd be ruling out most Iaito straight across the board&#8230; which are largely mass-produced&#8230; and are far better training tools than a "hand forged" sword&#8230;


----------



## Hyoho

donald1 said:


> I don't think swinging a fishing pole is something I'd compare to swinging a sword


Well it seems to be the case here. Lots of talk about using safe swords which is important. Apart from that it's digressed into 'cutting things".

Tameshigiri tests the blade but mostly the skill of the owner. I can teach someone how to hack through an item in 30 minutes but there is no skill involved. but its not tameshigiri. just someone hacking things up with a sharp tool. And to make it even funnier some post it on YouTube.

Doing any art require years of practice. Sword work is harder because over the years it has developed into what are 'wheels of a cart".. You cant do Kendo and be good at Iaido/Iaijutsu. likewise you cant do waza/kata and be able to fight/fence. Likewise I have seen Iaido 7th dan bend a blade doing tameshigiri. Someone who didnt practice one more wheel of the cart, Battojutsu. I realized this many years ago and took it upon myself to learn 'all' the facets and each time it meant going back to being a beginner. 

So... many of you I am sure and know that you may be good at your particular art. But If  came into your training area and told you I was also an expert at what you did because I had high grades using a sword? You would laugh your head of


----------

