# What cane tip is better for self defense?



## Alan0354 (Dec 18, 2021)

Hi

I have been debating about choosing the foot of the cane for self defense. Right now, I emphasize on striking which is swinging the cane to hit. I choose a hard rubber boot that is wide and weight 2/3oz to give a little tip heavy to the cane so I have more power when hitting the target.

I was on another thread and was suggested that THRUSTING is just as effective as striking by swinging. But here is the dilemma. For striking, you want more tip heavy, for thrusting(poking), you want the tip to be smaller and has smaller surface area to create more pressure at the point of contact. They are opposite to each other. I want to know opinion which way the tip should be. Here is the picture of both extreme, one has a wide hard rubber foot, the other has not foot, just a thin pad to get traction on the ground.





Obviously the one with no foot has much smaller surface area and create higher pressure in thrusting. But then it doesn't have the weight of the hard rubber foot to create more momentum when swinging. The one with hard rubber foot will hit harder on swinging but less pressure on thrusting. So which way should I go?

This might sound trivial, but the surface area of the one without the foot is less than half the area of the rubber foot. Also, the tip is a lot harder than the rubber foot as there's only a very thin layer of rubber on the tip for traction.

Thanks


----------



## drop bear (Dec 19, 2021)

I would go with whatever is better to walk with


----------



## Oily Dragon (Dec 19, 2021)

None of them.

You should dump all of these and get some solid, combat grade wooden sticks. 

I can hook you up with a supplier.


----------



## Alan0354 (Dec 19, 2021)

drop bear said:


> I would go with whatever is better to walk with


I don't need it for walking at all. It's only for self defense.


----------



## Alan0354 (Dec 19, 2021)

Oily Dragon said:


> None of them.
> 
> You should dump all of these and get some solid, combat grade wooden sticks.
> 
> I can hook you up with a supplier.


My canes are fiber filled Nylon, a whole lot stronger than any wood cane. It is heavier also, cutting to 31" and still 20oz. I swing with both hands.

UnitedCutlery.Com: Night Watchman Premium Adjustable Walking Cane - UC3129




I cut the sharp hook off to make it look tame. Don't let the rubber foot fool you to think it is soft, it is not rubber, must be sort of polyurethane, it's not even that sticky to the ground, it's quite slippery, not good for real walking use. You can't even buy the foot at all. I am short of 2 and I went all over the place and nothing is that hard. Even join a walking cane forum and ask. Finally have to go back to United Cutlery and bag them to order for me, no reply yet.

I bought a wood cane before, did not even last one minute before breaking into two hitting the heavy bag. This lasted 9 months!!! i have so many canes it's not funny:




This is an old picture, I bought like 6 more since.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Dec 19, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I don't need it for walking at all. It's only for self defense.


That's why wood is a better choice.  More natural, less conspicuous. 

Better looking, above all.


----------



## Alan0354 (Dec 19, 2021)

Oily Dragon said:


> That's why wood is a better choice.  More natural, less conspicuous.
> 
> Better looking, above all.


I don't care about the look, it has to survive hitting the heavy bag. I don't trust wood cane at all.

Actually, the hardest one is the Cold Steel City stick in the picture. It's very nice looking with silver knob and the end. I change to an ordinary handle so it doesn't stand out. It's the most expensive at $79 also.










Look at how strong it is also.Problem is it's too thin and too light, I like the United Cutlery after a lot of selections. No, wood cane is totally out for me. I even rather have the rattan canes I have in the picture. Those rattan are burned, with skin and 1.1" thick. It is hard and very durable, nothing like wood.

Let's get back to the cane tip.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Dec 19, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I don't care about the look, it has to survive hitting the heavy bag. I don't trust wood cane at all.
> 
> Actually, the hardest one is the Cold Steel City stick in the picture. It's very nice looking with silver knob and the end. I change to an ordinary handle so it doesn't stand out. It's the most expensive at $79 also.
> 
> ...


This may shock you but rattan....is wood.

And proper wooden combat staves are hard and durable too.  Rattan   And they are fine on a heavy bag.

And perfect for self defense purposes.  And prettier.


----------



## Alan0354 (Dec 19, 2021)

Oily Dragon said:


> This may shock you but rattan....is wood.
> 
> And proper wooden combat staves are hard and durable too.  Rattan   And they are fine on a heavy bag.
> 
> And perfect for self defense purposes.  And prettier.


That's the not subject. I want to get back to my question.


----------



## Alan0354 (Dec 19, 2021)

I guess my bottom line question is I want to hear from people whether it is more effective to swing and strike compare to thrusting in fighting. That give me an idea whether to favor thrusting or striking.

I did a lot of research on canes already, I don't think there is anything new I have not seen, including Ka-Bar and another aluminum cane that are really heavy duty. This is NOT the subject.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Dec 19, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I guess my bottom line question is I want to hear from people whether it is more effective to swing and strike compare to thrusting in fighting. That give me an idea whether to favor thrusting or striking.


Well the answer to that question is both are about equally effective.  All the staff forms I train use both interchangeably.

Also why many staff forms are the base for both spear training as well as things like halberds, monk spade, gwan do.


----------



## Alan0354 (Dec 19, 2021)

Oily Dragon said:


> Well the answer to that question is both are about equally effective.  All the staff forms I train use both interchangeably.
> 
> Also why many staff forms are the base for both spear training as well as things like halberds, monk spade, gwan do.


I guess I keep thinking striking is more effective and most of my practice is striking, not thrusting. Have no or a small foot, sacrifice some striking force for poking better.


----------



## Blindside (Dec 19, 2021)

I would go with a really minimal rubber foot, basically a rubber washer to your cane to give it traction on a surface.  It won't impede thrusting at all.  You shouldn't need the added weight of the rubber cap to aid in your strikes.


----------



## frank raud (Dec 19, 2021)

Cane / Crutch Grip Tip With Retractable Ice Spike  Here you go.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Dec 19, 2021)

frank raud said:


> Cane / Crutch Grip Tip With Retractable Ice Spike  Here you go.


Ouch.


----------



## Alan0354 (Dec 19, 2021)

frank raud said:


> Cane / Crutch Grip Tip With Retractable Ice Spike  Here you go.


I bought it already, waiting to arrive tomorrow!!!

I did a lot of research on canes and foots. 😂

Down side is you cannot leave the spike out all the time. It takes time to flip the spike out.


----------



## Alan0354 (Dec 19, 2021)

Blindside said:


> I would go with a really minimal rubber foot, basically a rubber washer to your cane to give it traction on a surface.  It won't impede thrusting at all.  You shouldn't need the added weight of the rubber cap to aid in your strikes.


That might solve a lot of problem. I actually grind down two of the hard rubber foot that came with the cane to smaller size to reduce weight. I thought that was a mistake and went all over the place to try to buy new hard rubber foots. For the life of me, I just cannot find any. I contacted United Cutlery and they don't have spare. I even join a walking cane forum to see whether they know any, no luck. I even went back to United cutlery and bag them to order some and they didn't even reply.

Maybe the two that I grind down is NOT a waste after all. Maybe that's just what the doctor's order!!!





See the middle one? I took the hard rubber foot like the one at the bottom and grind it down. Still very hard. 

These foots are so hard it doesn't even give good traction. I don't use the cane for walking anyway. In fact I carry it in my hand without even touching the ground. It's kind of politely say "don't tread on me". Hey, if I can prevent an attack, that's the best self defense!!!


Ha ha, when comes to canes, I am OCD. I have like 9 of the United Cutlery Night Watchman can cut to different length like 1/2" difference, trying out different foots and all that. Spent a lot of time researching into what is available on the market. The only other one Is either the Ka-Bar and another place that sell a little lighter one made of aluminum. Those are very expensive, one is like over $200. I decided not to get those because it won't past the metal detector, and it's suspicious to have such a heavy metal cane for walking!!!


----------



## Alan0354 (Dec 20, 2021)

The foot with spike arrived just on time. Here's the picture:





It's disappointing. It doesn't fit that well, it's just like an accordion that expand and fit over the cane. I don't think it's that secure. I am not sure it will stay put if you strike. It's very cheaply made. The material is not even as hard as the foot came with the United Cutlery shown in the middle. I don't think the spike is held very secure. More importantly, you can't have the spike out all the time, it will scratch up the floor. It's too much trouble to pull it out when needed.

Here is the picture to show how the accordion like upper skirt to hold onto the stick, it's so soft you can pull the foot off the cane easily. I bet if you swing hard, it might fly off without even hitting anything. You can see I can expand the skirt just by sticking my two fingers in. That's how flimsy it is.





Another $20 wasted. I wasted quite a bit of money like that. Things sound promise and turn out to be a dud a lot. You never know until you buy it.


----------



## Flying Crane (Dec 20, 2021)

Ive got to be honest, I think you are tinkering with things that are likely to get you into trouble if you actually use them on someone.  This thread kinda smacks of paranoia.


----------



## Alan0354 (Dec 20, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Ive got to be honest, I think you are tinkering with things that are likely to get you into trouble if you actually use them on someone.  This thread kinda smacks of paranoia.


Not if I just keep it normal tip, either no foot or the original hard rubber foot grinding down thin. The one with spike is out already.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Dec 20, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Not if I just keep it normal tip, either no foot or the original hard rubber foot grinding down thin. The one with spike is out already.


I don't think that is true at all. 
If you hit someone with your cane, with or without a spike, with or without modifications, or with that silly ring you bought, or stab them with a knife, or shoot them, it is all the same in the eyes of the law. It doesn't matter what weapon you used, all that matters is "was using a weapon justified". 
If it wasn't, you're in trouble. If it was, you're not.


----------



## geezer (Dec 20, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> That might solve a lot of problem. I actually grind down two of the hard rubber foot that came with the cane to smaller size to reduce weight. I thought that was a mistake and went all over the place to try to buy new hard rubber foots. For the life of me, I just cannot find any. I contacted United Cutlery and they don't have spare. I even join a walking cane forum to see whether they know any, no luck. I even went back to United cutlery and bag them to order some and they didn't even reply.
> 
> Maybe the two that I grind down is NOT a waste after all. Maybe that's just what the doctor's order!!!
> 
> ...


I don't know if you noticed, but the original tip that came with your cane 1. has a conical, flared profile and 2. a small screw in the center firmly attaching it to the plastic shaft of the cane. It is made of a hard plastic and not very "grippy" like a traditional rubber cane tip and is not great for walking. 

It is apparently designed more for a secure grip if you decide to wield the cane by the shaft and bludgeoning your opponent with the heavier crook end. This isn't a bad idea, except that...

1. There is a trade off. If you grab the cane by the shaft (even with the improved grip supplied by the flared tip) and you club your foe with the crook, the crook can be snagged in clothing, etc., or be caught by your opponent. Then he has _an even more secure grip_ which he can use to take your weapon from you.

2. As you noted above, the wider, flared tip somewhat reduces the penetration and effectiveness of thrusting attacks. Personally, _I don't see this as a significant problem_ if you do not plan on literally stabbing your attacker. But on the other hand, it does increase the chance that your attacker could get a firm grip on the end of your cane. And that's a real concern.

BTW, I'm told that some states have laws regarding objects that are fashioned for stabbing and penetrating... like the pointed tip on the crook before you wisely (IMO) modified it. Your state could well be one of them. Worth checking out.


----------



## geezer (Dec 20, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> I don't think that is true at all.
> If you hit someone with your cane, with or without a spike, with or without modifications, or with that silly ring you bought, or stab them with a knife, or shoot them, it is all the same in the eyes of the law. It doesn't matter what weapon you used, all that matters is "was using a weapon justified".
> If it wasn't, you're in trouble. If it was, you're not.


Wait, if you live in a place with specific laws against certain weapons, and you use one anyway, that's got to matter too, right?


----------



## Dirty Dog (Dec 20, 2021)

geezer said:


> Wait, if you live in a place with specific laws against certain weapons, and you use one anyway, that's got to matter too, right?


Then I'd guess you'd be in trouble for having it, regardless of if you used it or not. Because it's the possession that is illegal. I'd be willing to bet that if you used it, you'd be charged with possession of an illegal weapon (the specific weapon) as well as assault (with no specific weapon). 
But I don't think you're going to find a lot of places where "assault with a cane" is different than "assault with a knife" or "assault with a gun". If your use was not justified, it's pretty much all "assault with a weapon".


----------



## Flying Crane (Dec 20, 2021)

geezer said:


> Wait, if you live in a place with specific laws against certain weapons, and you use one anyway, that's got to matter too, right?


Im even thinking about making deliberate modifications to weaponize something.  If it gets noticed, depending on local laws, it might create trouble whether it’s used or not.  Things on the internet have a way of never disappearing


----------



## geezer (Dec 20, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> The foot with spike arrived just on time. Here's the picture:
> 
> View attachment 27806
> 
> ...


Being able to pull it off might be a good thing. Then if anybody grabs the shaft when you jab them with it, you could more easily retract it and wrest it free.

Or epoxy it on if you want it to stay in place. I wouldn't, but you know ...you spent $20, right?


----------



## geezer (Dec 20, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Ive got to be honest, I think you are tinkering with things that are likely to get you into trouble if you actually use them on someone.  This thread kinda smacks of paranoia.


OK ...but it still makes for fun conversation.


----------



## geezer (Dec 20, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Im even thinking about making deliberate modifications to weaponize something.  If it gets noticed, depending on local laws, it might create trouble whether it’s used or not.  Things on the internet have a way of never disappearing


True enough. You notice I don't post anything advocating illegal or questionable ...actions.  


Dirty Dog said:


> Then I'd guess you'd be in trouble for having it, regardless of if you used it or not. Because it's the possession that is illegal. I'd be willing to bet that if you used it, you'd be charged with possession of an illegal weapon (the specific weapon) as well as assault (with no specific weapon).
> But I don't think you're going to find a lot of places where "assault with a cane" is different than "assault with a knife" or "assault with a gun". If your use was not justified, it's pretty much all "assault with a weapon".


Lucky I live in a place where just about everything is legal to carry: handguns (concealed or open carry) without permits, batons, nunchaku, little knives, big knives, swords... well you get the idea.

Honestly  ...the odds are that if anybody ever kills me, it's gonna be in a car accident. Or maybe they'll sneeze on me.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 20, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I don't need it for walking at all. It's only for self defense.


Why not go ahead and be used to using one you could also walk with? Someday you may need it, even if only temporarily.

And I doubt there's a huge difference in real terms between the usability in fighting of a stick with or without a rubber tip.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 20, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I guess my bottom line question is I want to hear from people whether it is more effective to swing and strike compare to thrusting in fighting. That give me an idea whether to favor thrusting or striking.
> 
> I did a lot of research on canes already, I don't think there is anything new I have not seen, including Ka-Bar and another aluminum cane that are really heavy duty. This is NOT the subject.


They each have their place. And I don't think there's much value in min/maxing with an extra ounce here and a slightly harder bit there. Baseline is, it's a stick. A hard, dense stick. It'll hit hard if you use it well.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 20, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I guess I keep thinking striking is more effective and most of my practice is striking, not thrusting. Have no or a small foot, sacrifice some striking force for poking better.


I think you're thinking of poking as a strike. I would think of what you'd expect it to do when you poke. I'd be using it to control distance or maybe to move the head. Neither of those would change dramatically with/without a rubber cane tip.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 20, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> The foot with spike arrived just on time. Here's the picture:
> 
> View attachment 27806
> 
> ...


If you want it to stick, epoxy it on. It might not last in training in repeated use, but it'd last through a fight. Mind you, if it's not icy, I expect having a spike on your cane might make it more likely someone regards it as a weapon if you ever use it.


----------



## Alan0354 (Dec 20, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> I don't think that is true at all.
> If you hit someone with your cane, with or without a spike, with or without modifications, or with that silly ring you bought, or stab them with a knife, or shoot them, it is all the same in the eyes of the law. It doesn't matter what weapon you used, all that matters is "was using a weapon justified".
> If it wasn't, you're in trouble. If it was, you're not.


If I have to use it, it doesn't matter. Just make sure it's legal to carry.

I am sure it's legal if I just stand there and let the thug beat me up!!! When you are being attack, you use whatever it takes to defend.


----------



## jks9199 (Dec 20, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I guess my bottom line question is I want to hear from people whether it is more effective to swing and strike compare to thrusting in fighting. That give me an idea whether to favor thrusting or striking.
> 
> I did a lot of research on canes already, I don't think there is anything new I have not seen, including Ka-Bar and another aluminum cane that are really heavy duty. This is NOT the subject.


The answer is...  Yes.  I personally would go with the rubber tip, since it makes the can more functional as a cane.  Striking, swings, and thrusts are all effective offensive techniques with a cane, and which is best depends on the specific circumstances.  If you don't need the cane to support yourself, you have a lot of freedom -- but why advertise that?  Swings take room, thrusts can occur within the space of your body, and other strikes have their own requirements... so, to circle back to your question -- Yes.  Each is effective.


----------



## Alan0354 (Dec 20, 2021)

Gerry Seymour said:


> If you want it to stick, epoxy it on. It might not last in training in repeated use, but it'd last through a fight. Mind you, if it's not icy, I expect having a spike on your cane might make it more likely someone regards it as a weapon if you ever use it.


I am going to stick with hard rubber foot or no foot at this point. Geezer made a valid point people can grab the cane easier with the wide foot, make sense to use no foot of very small narrow foot.


----------



## Alan0354 (Dec 20, 2021)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I think you're thinking of poking as a strike. I would think of what you'd expect it to do when you poke. I'd be using it to control distance or maybe to move the head. Neither of those would change dramatically with/without a rubber cane tip.


Strike, I meant swinging and hit. I use the word thrusting for poking. These words are confusing!!!

I admit I am OCD in this, I keep trying to optimize to the extreme. I guess being an engineer, I am overly analytical about this.


----------

