# Is bulking up the answer to making your WC better?



## geezer (Feb 10, 2017)

If your WC doesn't work as well as you'd like, is bulking up the answer? Check this out:






I have nothing against working on fitness and strength. I just wonder how far you need to take it to have effective WC/VT/WT. Also, is it really necessary to get such a severe _sunburn?_ Your thoughts....


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## yak sao (Feb 10, 2017)

*sigh*....if only the founders of WC knew how to fight


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## yak sao (Feb 10, 2017)

Just in case I slipped one past you, that was sarcasm


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## KPM (Feb 11, 2017)

There is no doubt that strength and overall fitness levels contribute to the effectiveness of any martial art.  Doing some work at a gym outside of Wing Chun class is typically going to benefit anyone that chooses to spend the time.  But WHAT you do at the gym certainly matters!   Training for bulk and definition like a body builder will soon have diminishing returns for any martial art.  Body building workouts tend to lead to tight muscles as bulk increases.  There comes a point where the amount of muscle mass slows down the speed of movement.  These things are not good for martial art!   But training for a combination of strength and endurance that does not produce a lot of bulk will certainly help martial arts practice.   So then the question becomes training time.  If someone has lots of spare time for training and can practice their Wing Chun adequately and still have time to spend in the gym...then more power to them!!!   Personally, I've never seemed to have that much free time.  So I spend it on martial arts practice and not going to the gym.  However, in a perfect world I would spend some time at the gym working purely on fitness levels.  Not only would this be good for health, but I'm sure would improve my martial arts as well.


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## yak sao (Feb 11, 2017)

The approach that was taught to us was to involve as many major muscle groups as possible in an individual exercise rather than isolated muscles so that body is working together as a unit.
This also enhances overall strength and endurance.
examples: squats vs leg extensions, and pulll Ups vs dumbbell rows .


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## DanT (Feb 11, 2017)

I asked my sifu years ago if you needed to build muscle to be good in kung fu, and his answer stuck with me:

"You don't need to be stronger than the opponent, but you need to be strong." 

I have found that through strength building exersizes, my kung fu has improved tremendously. Before I could only Squat 250, now I can squat 300, and along with that my kicks have become increasingly devastating. Before I could only bench 180, now I can bench 225 and my punches have grown significantly more punishing. It's like I said, you don't have to be stronger, but being strong helps a lot. At the end of the day, it's the muscles that move the body, not some secret life force.


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## KangTsai (Feb 11, 2017)

As of now I take more a bodybuilding approach in the gym, with a little strength stuff (it's a bit hard, because there are no power racks, or even plate-loading bars for that matter). I believe it speeds up the process of "getting" the technique. Core strength and small-muscle strength (stability) especially.


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## geezer (Feb 11, 2017)

KangTsai said:


> As of now I take more a bodybuilding approach in the gym, with a little strength stuff (it's a bit hard, because there are no power racks, or even plate-loading bars for that matter). I believe it speeds up the process of "getting" the technique. Core strength and small-muscle strength (stability) especially.



So do you feel that a body building approach helps your martial arts?


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## Nobody Important (Feb 11, 2017)

Strength & size is never a bad thing.


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## dudewingchun (Feb 11, 2017)

Id say training for just typical bodybuilding hypertrophy probably isnt the best cardio wise. Muscles need oxygen, and having huge muscles takes up more oxygen. Big buff guys quite often gas out around round 2 in UFC fights..

Imo becoming more explosive and increasing stamina is better for everything fighting wise.


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## KangTsai (Feb 11, 2017)

geezer said:


> So do you feel that a body building approach helps your martial arts?


Not necessarily. By bodybuilding approach, I meant heavy lifting at around sets of 10 repititions.


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## Danny T (Feb 11, 2017)

Good usable strength is important. Bulking or body building not so much.


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## drop bear (Feb 11, 2017)

We are talking about an art that relies heavily on bulldozing people. 

Of course mass is going to help.


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## geezer (Feb 12, 2017)

drop bear said:


> We are talking about an art *that relies heavily on bulldozing people*.



Are you talking about Wing Chun?



Of course, size, mass, and brute force are always a factor, but I never thought of WC as emphasizing that. Quite the opposite in fact.


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## Danny T (Feb 12, 2017)

drop bear said:


> We are talking about an art that relies heavily on bulldozing people.
> 
> Of course mass is going to help.


I've not been exposed to any wing chun that relies on 'bulldozing' or at least not what I consider bulldozing.


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## drop bear (Feb 12, 2017)

geezer said:


> Are you talking about Wing Chun?



The style that has forward intention as a base line concept.

And i heve seen some very solid chunners out there.


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## drop bear (Feb 12, 2017)

Danny T said:


> I've not been exposed to any wing chun that relies on 'bulldozing' or at least now what I consider bulldozing.


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## geezer (Feb 12, 2017)

drop bear said:


> The style that has forward intention as a base line concept.
> 
> And i heve seen some very solid chunners out there.



Yeah, there are some strong WC guys.  But forward intent is not _bulldozing. _It's more like a spring. A spring always pressed forward, even if it's being compressed backward. You can have forward intent while retreating (compressing) or off-lining (being pressed to the side or deflecting). Head-to head _bulldozing_ like _Kyokushinkai_ is not good WC. Especially for the smaller guy. Try evasive Spanish _bullfighting_ instead.


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## Danny T (Feb 12, 2017)

Drop Bear...
So bulldozing is anyone going forward in a fight?


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## geezer (Feb 12, 2017)

drop bear said:


>



The Karate guy appeared to use more bulldozing in this clip. The WC guy looked less massive, just more relentless in his forward pressure.

Forward pressure isn't about body pressure so much as keeping the _pressure on_ so to speak. It's about directing continuous energy at your opponent's center... regardless of whether you are advancing, being pushed back or deflecting to the side.

If you think of it as springy-energy as we do in my lineage, a spring can be heavy or light and still returns energy.


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## drop bear (Feb 12, 2017)

Danny T said:


> Drop Bear...
> So bulldozing is anyone going forward in a fight?



Yeah.  Think of what a bulldozer does.


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## geezer (Feb 12, 2017)

Danny T said:


> Drop Bear...
> So bulldozing is anyone going forward in a fight?



I don't know about Drop Bear, but to me _bulldozing_ is all about power. More like football offensive line or rugby in the scrum, ...Wing Chun ...not so much. In our lineage, the legendary story of Ng Mui and Yim Wing Chun are not told just for fun. They convey a lesson or moral. Kinda like Aesop's fables for martial artists!


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## geezer (Feb 12, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Yeah.  Think of what a bulldozer does.


Drop -- a bulldozer uses brute force to slowly power its way forward uprooting or crushing anything in it's path:

https://images8.alphacoders.com/436/436955.jpg

Definitely cool, but not the Yip Man lineage WC/WT I learned. Yip Man was strong and wiry, but also fast and agile. _Nobody ever called him a bulldozer or tank!!!_


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## Danny T (Feb 12, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Yeah.  Think of what a bulldozer does.


So all fights happen because of one or the other being a bulldozer. LOL!!


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## Danny T (Feb 12, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Yeah.  Think of what a bulldozer does.


My automobile goes forward as well but it certainly isn't a bulldozer. LOL


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## geezer (Feb 12, 2017)

Drop -- Another example would be our wooden dummy. It may flex a bit, but it doesn't give way. It is like the opponent _who is a *tank.*_ We learn to keep our forward intent while _we move *around *it._


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## geezer (Feb 12, 2017)

Just for the record -- I'm too old, flabby and small framed to be a good bulldozer. But on those occasions when do I get the right angle and can uproot my opponent, I'm all for it!


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## drop bear (Feb 12, 2017)

Danny T said:


> My automobile goes forward as well but it certainly isn't a bulldozer. LOL



Your automobile doesn't smash crap out of the way as it goes forward through things. 

Automobile? Do people really say that.


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## Danny T (Feb 12, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Automobile? Do people really say that.


LOL...we just did


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## Transk53 (Feb 12, 2017)

geezer said:


> I don't know about Drop Bear, but to me _bulldozing_ is all about power. More like football offensive line or rugby in the scrum, ...Wing Chun ...not so much. In our lineage, the legendary story of Ng Mui and Yim Wing Chun are not told just for fun. They convey a lesson or moral. Kinda like Aesop's fables for martial artists!



Some may call it bulldozing, but generally it is desperation tactics, or a meat head not knowing much else. Of course though, a bigger opponent may seem intimidating, but charge one and put them off guard, don't need huge muscles for that.


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## drop bear (Feb 12, 2017)

geezer said:


> Drop -- a bulldozer uses brute force to slowly power its way forward uprooting or crushing anything in it's path:
> 
> https://images8.alphacoders.com/436/436955.jpg
> 
> Definitely cool, but not the Yip Man lineage WC/WT I learned. Yip Man was strong and wiry, but also fast and agile. _Nobody ever called him a bulldozer or tank!!!_


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## drop bear (Feb 12, 2017)

training wing chun in china.


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## Juany118 (Feb 12, 2017)

I think there are two things

First, generic.  You only have so much time to train.  I prioritize this way... The art, cardio, weights.  If you don't have the skill it doesn't matter and if you don't have the cardio to sustain both the skill and the muscle you are screwed.  I have come out on top more than once because I "gassed" the stronger guy.

Second WC itself.  Many of the techniques are designed structurally to use bone and tendon as much as muscle, if not more, for support, so you eventually get diminishing returns imo.

I also think @geezer had the right idea describing it as a spring.  A bulldozer just goes.  If the wall collapses it either keeps on going or you have to consciously put on the breaks.  In WC, if you have to "put on the breaks" you have lost your structure and if the wall (opponent) purposefully collapsed to take advantage of your poor structure you are screwed.  

A spring expands (naturally) only so far, and when compressed (unless broken) it does so in a controlled and uniform manner, while still having the the intent to expand.  If you know chi sau you understand, to an extent, how it should feel to your body but visually it's not necessarily there for the outsider to see.  However I think Tai Chi Chuan push hands is a good visual representation for how one has forward intent without "bulldozing."


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## Juany118 (Feb 12, 2017)

Doublepost


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## wingerjim (Feb 15, 2017)

DanT said:


> I asked my sifu years ago if you needed to build muscle to be good in kung fu, and his answer stuck with me:
> 
> "You don't need to be stronger than the opponent, but you need to be strong."
> 
> I have found that through strength building exersizes, my kung fu has improved tremendously. Before I could only Squat 250, now I can squat 300, and along with that my kicks have become increasingly devastating. Before I could only bench 180, now I can bench 225 and my punches have grown significantly more punishing. It's like I said, you don't have to be stronger, but being strong helps a lot. At the end of the day, it's the muscles that move the body, not some secret life force.


That is well said. I certainly am not as strong as I was when younger but my skills are better now and I feel just as confident in my ability to use my art if need be and can take on a stronger opponent, but not one of better skill or much greater strength.


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## anerlich (Feb 15, 2017)

Assuming you want to be able to do your Wing Chun (and other physical activities) to an advanced age, you need to look at the strength/bulk aspect from the viewpoint of longevity. Your Wing Chun isn't going to be any good when you are 65 if you are too infirm to practice, or too wrecked from poorly managed physical training to function properly.

Wing Chun and other martial arts are interesting and hopefully effective, and maybe even give you other life skills.

It is highly contestable, despite what people like Hendrik Santo may try to tell you, that they are necessarily the best thing for your health. Every activity, including Wing Chun, Jiu Jitsu, hypertrophy or strength training, has what Steve Maxwell calls "the price of adaptation".

AS you get into your later years, your muscles tend to naturally waste away. A phenomenon called sarcopenia. You need to do some strength training, even bodybuilding style hypertrophy work, to stop or retard this.

Some would have you believe that Jiu Jitsu relies heavily on strength.

I thought four sessions of a week of Jiu Jitsu with Wing Chun or similar training on other days would be enough to stay strong and healthy. In my early sixties I was worried about pushing too hard. But MA training alone wasn’t enough. I was weaker when I turned 62 than I was at 59. I could do staanding backflips at 59, these days the fast twitch explosiveness eludes me (though I haven't given up on getting it back).

I’ve taken to adding strength training at least two days a week, one a day of Simple and Sinister kettlebell work, the other a day of pushups, pullups and bodyweight dips – lots of sets, not that many reps, never to failure. I’m gaining measurable strength and my ability to roll before gassing has improved a great deal.

Jiu Jitsu alone will also lead to muscular and postural imbalances unless corrective and balancing exercise is undertaken. I would postulate the same as true of Wing Chun. All that elbow in stuff, little pulling, all the adduction from that stance.

Bulking up doesn’t interest me. The sport aspect of Jiu Jitsu has weight classes. Staying strong or getting stronger is definitely a priority. My ability to keep my physical capabilities into advanced age depends on it.


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## wingerjim (Feb 16, 2017)

Well the Wing Chun I learn relies on accuracy, economy of motion, relaxed and controlled approach. This does not mean it is weak or feeble, but is actually very strong through training to execute powerful moves using the whole body and striking with great timing and controlling the opponent. Could I do this being stronger, sure. Would I trade my training time to life weights, no because I would prefer skill of force.


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