# Moving towards a more objective discussion...



## geezer (Feb 1, 2010)

After reading through the thread, _"False teaching and Secret knowledge"_ I wondered why WC people can't move away from this superstitious and cult-like mentality and towards a more objective discussion of what we do. Why do we so often adopt the kind of dogmatic and authoritarian stance of _"My lineage does it right and the rest of you are wrong!",_ or even worse,_ "We have the true/secret/authentic system and the rest don't know squat!"._ Wouldn't it be a lot more productive to look at our differences more dispassionately and objectively... applying a sort of cost vs. benefit analysis to our techniques and strategies?

Take the issue of stance and steps for example. The way my lineage teaches stance and stepping is different from the way Chinaboxer teaches. Now, I've never met Jin (Chinaboxer) personally, but based on his posts and website, I'd bet we could get together and try out some of the different ways we approach things and learn a lot. I might decide that his approach could help me... or not. But I would base my conclusions on an examination of the benefit of each approach vs. the risk, and how it worked _for me_ as an individual... not because his famous sifu or my famous sifu has more magical secrets!!! Any thoughts?


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## mograph (Feb 1, 2010)

Hey, it's not limited to Wing Chun. 

I think the best we all can do is continue to share with respect and genuine interest, without the fear that exposure to another's methods will somehow corrupt us. We need to feel confident that we can take what we need and leave the rest, with respect. Eventually, as more groups adopt this attitude, this may become the way of martial arts.

Of course, to get to that point requires experience, training and knowledge of one's body and self. 

Piece of cake, right?


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## geezer (Feb 2, 2010)

mograph said:


> the best we all can do is continue to share with respect and genuine interest, without the fear that exposure to another's methods will somehow corrupt us. We need to feel confident that we can take what we need and leave the rest, with respect...


 
You're spot on. I think people's closed mindedness comes from _insecurity. _If you are insecure about your abilities, your knowledge, even your business skills, you won't open up for fear that people will find weakness in what you do. That's one reason I've been glad to be a simple student again. I don't have to impress anybody. Being old helps too. Nobody expects a middle-aged student to _"represent"_ and _"uphold the honor of his system"_ or any of the rest of that BS. 

Unfortunately, recently I've been pressured into offering public classes again, and will have to play "sifu" again. Hopefully, now I'm mature enough not to let it change how I feel on these issues.


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## profesormental (Feb 3, 2010)

Greetings.

Here's the thing.

If you don't know how to evaluate if some training, approach or execution method is better than another, then yours (or your clan's) is the best, right?

Of course, better than another, can be subjective. Yet it can be a comparative analysis against similar or equal force to test stability.

For example, I can show you different ways to execute a pak sao, or tan sao, even a lan sao. And I can show you that doing it some ways, even though you end up in the same position, will be less stable and have less load bearing capacity than another.

I can do this with all the movements of the forms. And I'm still improving, and finding other ways to execute depending on where you want the maximal force to be directed to.

Same with stances and footwork. And if you can show me a better way, I will surely incorporate it. I've been doing this for years, and I have no problem admitting that what I was taught initially could be improved.

It was really good. But the question I ask now is "How can I make it even better?"

That is what I've been researching and moving towards in my training. Do I have all the answers. Nope. By sharing with like minded practitioners, I believe we can pool resources, experience and skills to eventually improve collectively.

In my school, we have various teachers. we share openly, and we have noticed a marked improvement in the quality of the student's skills. He teaches ninjitsu. I teach, well, Wing Chun Kuen Fat. We train in martial sports for fun and attributes.

For this opportunity, I am eternally grateful... even though there is a small group that openly share... I am honored and grateful beyond words for their friendship, support and warrior spirit.

In the end, all I want is more playmates to learn and play with.

Juan Mercado-Robles


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## zepedawingchun (Feb 3, 2010)

geezer said:


> After reading through the thread, _"False teaching and Secret knowledge"_ I wondered why WC people can't move away from this superstitious and cult-like mentality and towards a more objective discussion of what we do. Why do we so often adopt the kind of dogmatic and authoritarian stance of _"My lineage does it right and the rest of you are wrong!",_ or even worse,_ "We have the true/secret/authentic system and the rest don't know squat!"._ Wouldn't it be a lot more productive to look at our differences more dispassionately and objectively... applying a sort of cost vs. benefit analysis to our techniques and strategies?





geezer said:


> . . . . But I would base my conclusions on an examination of the benefit of each approach vs. the risk, and how it worked _for me_ as an individual... not because his famous sifu or my famous sifu has more magical secrets!!!
> 
> . . . . You're spot on. I think people's closed mindedness comes from _insecurity. _If you are insecure about your abilities, your knowledge, even your business skills, you won't open up for fear that people will find weakness in what you do. . . .
> 
> . . . .Unfortunately, recently I've been pressured into offering public classes again, and will have to play "sifu" again. Hopefully, now I'm mature enough not to let it change how I feel on these issues.



I think some of what you have stated is true, their is a real fear of one's skills and knowledge, so some people hide it by telling students they are the true art, or have secret techniques and keeping a mystical side to the art. And then student hear it so often, it become cast in stone. Past down from one student to another. But, I feel most of this my lineage is better than yours, my teacher is so and so, or I trained with master so and so is more of a marketing ploy than anything else. Trying to appear as the one and only or being the best when people seek you out for study.

To me, the bottom line has always been your skill and what you prove to me when I cross hands with you or feel your energy. I have never been impressed with someone stating they trained with this teacher. Like Bruce Lee said when someone told him they trained with this famous teacher 'so what have you done?'.

What's wrong with you playing 'Sifu'?  I know there is a lot of responsibility in wearing that hat.  But I find it's a great learning experience.  We as human beings, feel most times, the only way to learn is to be a student.  But you really learn so much more when you teach.  For instance, for you to teach, you have to know what you're talking about and be able to perform what you demonstrate or teach (or at least you should).  And a lot of times, do it under pressure.  Plus you get to train (if you so desire) with as many students as you accept.  They may come to you for private lessons, or just help them do this right or that, or just touching hands with them in class to help fix what they  are doing wrong.  To me, it is a learning and improving my skills situation.


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## zepedawingchun (Feb 3, 2010)

profesormental said:


> . . . . . In the end, all I want is more playmates to learn and play with. . . .


 
I feel the same way.  I tend to look past what people say their lineage is (I try not to hold it against them, because some people can come off as being very arrogant concerning their lineage), and find some common ground so we can work out together.  Over the years, I've had several visitors come to my classes and try to impress me with their my sifu is this or that, and they trained like this with their teacher and we did it this way or that way.  When they found out I didn't care, and was only interesting in their skill level and knowledge, then we were actually able to see each others art.  

But in the end, all I'm trying to do is improve, make myself better using my art by finding as many people to cross energy with as possible.


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## geezer (Feb 3, 2010)

zepedawingchun said:


> I feel most of this "my lineage is better than yours, my teacher is so and so, or I trained with master so and so" is more of a *marketing ploy* than anything else.


 
Too true... at least for the Head instructors of many commercial associations. A lot of times they try to promote an almost cult-like mentality among their students. There's a lot more money to be made off "true believers" than from independent, intelligent, and inquiring students with open eyes. 




zepedawingchun said:


> I have never been impressed with someone stating they trained with this teacher. Like Bruce Lee said when someone told him they trained with this famous teacher 'so what have you done?'.


 
True again. Knowing who someone's teacher was and what their lineage is may give you a rough idea of what their style is, but nothing about the _quality_ of their MA or how well they can _apply_ it. I know guys that trained under awesome fighters who are totally inept. Heck, some would put me in that category... but at least I'm not _delusional _about my abilities!


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## zepedawingchun (Feb 3, 2010)

geezer said:


> . . .  I know guys that trained under awesome fighters who are totally inept. Heck, some would put me in that category... but at least I'm not _delusional _about my abilities!


 
When I get dilusions of grandeur and my ego starts to get to big for me, I visit my sifu and he brings me back down to earth. . . . crashing down almost immediately.


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## Seeker (Feb 5, 2010)

I must be the odd duck of the WC world. I am always looking at other lineages, other people's training videos saying to myself "I wish we did that!"


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## geezer (Feb 5, 2010)

Seeker said:


> I must be the odd duck of the WC world. I am always looking at other lineages, other people's training videos saying to myself "I wish we did that!"


 
Nah, what's odd is that you admit it!


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## turninghorse (Feb 7, 2010)

Thank you Geezer for starting this thread. 
I will quote you from the prior thread:



> But later I found out that he was cagey and almost paranoid in the way he would withold information... Sometimes from us --his senior disciples (especially if we were short of cash or time to devote to promoting him) --and more often from lower ranked students and the general public. He published books and posters with deliberate errors, "just to fool the other WC people", he falsified photos and documents to suggest a closer relationship between himself and GM Yip Man than actually existed



I believe this is highly ingrained in the culture of WC (and of other MA's as well) and will take generations to eradicate. There is some rumor Yip Man did this as well, though some have interpreted it differently.

Accepting and winning challenges was (and sometimes) still is important to the economic viability of a school. One can see how this environment might lead to such thinking, that holding back could give the Sifu an advantage if needed, particularly if a student went on to establish a rival school as sometimes happened. 

Hopefully, as we are now in "the information age" the quality of the school and teacher should be based on the quality of the instruction. After all it is the rare "big time" athletic coach that was an allstar player. The skill of doing and knowing are not the same as teaching.


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## BFL (Feb 11, 2010)

Here, here, well stated!  
  I for one consider my own Wing Chun to need work.  Teaching it doesn't grant anyone, especially msyelf a patent on knowing it all.  In fact I've told each and every one of my students, friends and fellow Chunners that I need work in different area's and I know there are many chunners out there that are better at it than I am.  I've done my utmost to maintain a certain level of some type of humility and tried to let "Ego" slip to the way side.  In my opinion this is the "Key" to being able to work with and exchange with others.  I'm sure I've failed in different area's but that is my goal. 
  That being said, I've met up with another teacher in the area from a totally different branch with a different approach to things and we've hit it off just fine.  I went with him to one of the classes he taught and was welcome with open arms by his students and they all had great attitudes.  I liked different things they did and they liked different things I did.  Thankfully no ego's got involved and we had a great time, hopefully to be returning to do it again soon.
  When ego and pride get in the way all the good stuff goes right out the door. I honestly would rather be a good person and decent human being while have okay W.C., than a fighting W.C. unstoppable master of all and be a jerk.  Of course if I could be a W.C. master wizard and a great guy that would be optimum haha.


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## geezer (Feb 11, 2010)

BFL said:


> I honestly would rather be a good person and decent human being while have okay W.C., than a fighting W.C. unstoppable master of all and be a jerk.  Of course if I could be a W.C. master wizard and a great guy that would be optimum haha.



I agree, that's a good philosophy for life in general.


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## Nabakatsu (Feb 12, 2010)

I had to sign in just to give ya a thanks bfl, some deep words, and what could be better than being a practiced magician, wing tzun master, and a good hearted person?! hear hear!


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