# Kenpo Rank



## cdhall (Jun 17, 2002)

This discussion began under Mr. Trejo being a 10th or not but I think it merits its own thread if for nothing else than to keep Mr. Trejo's name out of it.

I have had History professors say that the US is or was looked upon as an Outlaw and Free spirit in some cases regarding international affairs.  Partly because the US was born of an illegal act (the Constitution was drawn up illegally, the guys were sent there to rework the Articles of Confederation) and so being born of an illegal act, we are marked by it forever.

So... I have seen Mr. C. post on a tribute site that he once asked Mr. Parker how he "came to wear a 10th" if I remember right.  While I don't dispute that Mr. Parker deserved to be marked out as among the leaders and innovators and even creators of an "Art" there seem to be many that have confused this distinction to apply to an organization as well.

If you have military experience, you may follow me in that where the Military has distinctions between Rank and Position, we seem to have lost this in Kenpo after Mr. Parker's death.  Prior to Mr. Parker there was a Kenpo-wide Rank Structure so that there was a 10th and every kenpo person affiliated with Mr. Parker was ranked by him (Rank) whether they were the head of  their own organization (Position) or not.

After Mr Parker died it seems that now I can make a claim that if I start the Intergalactic Kenpo Karate Assimilation that I can be a 10th because of the position I hold in the organization regardless of what my rank was in the system prior to that.  

I have a great story of someone who maintained the distinction between rank and position by the way, but I hesitate to repeat any of it.  I should probaby hesitate even to post this, but I may be too naive for my own good.

OK.  The question is this.  How can you get promoted in Kenpo?  American Kenpo anyway, following Mr. Parker.

Mr. C seems to say that you must be promoted by someone higher than you and not by the will of others no matter how strong that will might be.

Mr. Kelly seems to back this up by his refusing a 10th last year because it would allow him to pass his instructor.  I think it is relevant that Mr. Kelly did pass his instructor before but that was by the action of Mr. Parker himself.

So if you can only get "pulled" up the ladder an not "pushed" up the ladder, then how does anyone make it to 10th?

Mr. Parker seems to have gotten there by skill and his contributions.  No one disputed this, and no one disputed his promotions either.  But then what?

Mr. Parker didn't leave a system in place for this.  Did he discuss this in the manuals?  Was there a precedent for his own elevation?

How do you get promoted in Kenpo?  And, if you can only promote someone to the rank beneath you, then how do we avoid losing rank with each generation?

If Mr. LaBounty can only promote to 8th, and his students then to 7th etc, then it is conceiveable that at some point we won't have anyone who can even promote a Black Belt.

Quickly I'll add that some traditional Goju/Karate friends of mine and even Chinese Kung-Fu resources have said, roughly, that you are ranked up to 4th Black based on your proficiency and knowledge of the system (Mr. Parker had his charts stop at 3rd coincidentally).  After this, Promotion Boards commonly elevate you further based on your contributions to the art.  But in most all cases you are "elevated" by boards consisting of your seniors, so how does that system maintain itself?

OK.  At least we have a thread for this now.  I want to say that most all of this was brought up either directly or indirectly in one or more threads (as mentioned) and that by distilling the thoughts here I hope we can stay on topic and discuss this issue of rank and promotion (or not) more directly.


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## Seig (Jun 17, 2002)

Doug,
I think yo havce asked a great question and worder it very well and respectfully.  I, too, will beinterested in seing how the "Seniors" answer this.  This is a subject of great debate.  I eagerly look for Mr. Conatser's and Dr. Chap'el's answers.
Respectfully.:asian:


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 17, 2002)

1 concept I've heard of is you get promoted by a panel of your peers.  Get 4 8ths to agree your an 8th, and your in.

(been a long weekend, hope you can follow thought pattern here.) 

:asian:


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## GouRonin (Jun 17, 2002)

Unless you're in a commercial situation who gives a %$#@???

Really, it's not like Dennis is suffering, at least I don't think he is, from not having high rank.

If everyone else showed some d@mn respect and stopped promoting everyone else when the wind blew then maybe this wouldn't be a problem.

Ahhhhhhhhh foooey...
:soapbox:


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## jfarnsworth (Jun 17, 2002)

My good friend that teaches JJ told me when he trained with his instructor a panel of judges got together and gave him certificates of rank. If I'm thinking properly the instructor was 6th or 7th or something, he received certificates until 10th degree from this panel of judges. Each of the certificates were pre-dated one degree every 5 yrs. I also believe that the panel consisted of 6 or 8 instructors that had trained with this individual. They decided his rank based on time in art, teaching the art, and coming up with his own JJ organization. This individual did not have an instructor and no way to move up in degrees. This seemed fair to me and wasn't left up to just 1 person to give the promotion. 
Jason Farnsworth


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## cdhall (Jun 17, 2002)

Seig, 

I'm so glad you said that.  I always try to be very respectful but it is hard sometimes because I am so curious.  Fortunately my curiosity has led me to find that Mr. Parker was not just some really good guy with "lots of terms" so I am inclined to indulge myself.  After all, I'm glad I pursued that line of curiosity.  I also don't know who is here and I had forgotten that I saw a post once by "Doc" who I guess is Dr. Chapel and I think he must be new.  I probably didn't catch it because I have never met him and because he was ranked as a White Belt when I saw the post.  "Doc" and "White Belt" are not ideas that I associate together. 

I will add that in a communications class I once took, the Prof emphasized that not only must you know your own material in any debate, but you must know the flipside so that you can address it should it come up.  Since I am going to more tournaments and seminars now, this does come up and it does not look good for me as a loyal follower of a great system for 18 years to not be able to address a topic like this.  Especially when the "traditional" guys are so fond of telling you how their lineage is directly traceable back to the "primordial pool" and so on.  Thank you I am glad that I successfully communicated my sincere and humble desire to learn more about our system.  I also hope it will be good for us to have this info at MartialTalk so I maybe won't need to go checking other sites so much.  I think sooner or later there will be a good body of knowledge here on all topics.  Thanks again.  
:asian:


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## cdhall (Jun 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> 
> *Unless you're in a commercial situation who gives a %$#@???
> 
> ...



I think that while you may have missed my point you have hit on another good point. 

Which is, the situation being what it is, Rank seems to serve no purpose.  I meant to look this up in Infinite Insights and post from it, but Rank seems to serve no purpose in Kenpo as a measure of skill.  It seems only to serve a purpose now relative to Position as I mentioned earlier.  For example, from this board and others I know that there are several people I will seek seminars from, not because of their Rank, but because of their reputation and expertise.

I think Mr. Hancock perpetuates this idea.  I think in the Journey he said that "Rank is your instructor's opinion of you."  So this being the case, now that we don't have the same instructor (Mr. Parker) Rank doesn't hold any value outside of your organization/school.

Maybe this is how it should be anyway.  I know I was told never to wear my belt outside the studio unless I was at a tournament, training camp or seminar in uniform.   I still get irritated when I see kids wearing their belts to the grocery store... but it is advertising I suppose. 

I think this topic may also deserve it's own thread but I won't do it.  I think the "meaning of Rank" is a bit different from "how you get it" which was my original question.  I suppose there is no way to discuss one without the other.
:asian:


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## GouRonin (Jun 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *Rank doesn't hold any value outside of your organization/school.*



Bingo. So the next time you see someone get all bent out of shape because they don't feel they are getting the _respect they deserve because of their rank_ at a seminar tell them to chill.

I am starting a movement to have people discard their rank and work from information base alone.

...we all know it'll never work...


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## ikenpo (Jun 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



Gou, 

You are wild. JKD based systems do it. No rank, but classifications. Apprentice instructor  or Phase 1,2 etc... instructor, Modern Arnis does the same thing I think. 

I think there are some folks out there that have a problem with authority and classifications that rank people at different levels. That's cool. Find someone who doesn't use them for you (like systema I guess), but let everyone else do there thing. 

I admit some of my favorite martial arts instructors, James Keating, Kelly Worden, Dan Inosanto don't wear belts. They show what they know. At the same time, everytime I've seen Sigung LaBounty or Sibok Kelly or Mr Huk Planas put on their belts there was never any doubt that those belts belonged around their waists, and I know they could still kick *ss if they were just standing in their underwear.

People have been burned by folks that wouldn't give them rank when they deserved it and that is unfortunate, but don't let it harden your mind to the process when done properly (which is subjective) if you can help it.

Your Bro, jb:asian:


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## GouRonin (Jun 17, 2002)

I know, I'm just letting my sarcasm out. I love EPAK and the way people are treating it lately, well, it just kills me. if we could just remove the politics I am sure it'd get rid of the crap that it's brought and stop the art from being made into the next TKD.

By the way, I have seen Huk in his undies and yes he can kick butt no matter what he's wearing. Of course at the time I think I was wearing my underwear on my head with my sunglasses on and we were drinking Canadian Whiskey.


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Gou Ronin_*
> Unless you're in a commercial situation who gives a %$#@???
> Really, it's not like Dennis is suffering, at least I don't think he is, from not having high rank.
> *



No, I'm not hurting by having the low rank of 6th Degree (it didn't stop me from learning when I was a 5th and it wont stop me now or at 7th either)......... except that I need more students to study the Art vs just talking about it.:rofl: 

:asian:


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## Seig (Jun 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *
> 
> ...


Well, just inform the board that the assimilation of West "By God" Virginia has begun!


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## cdhall (Jun 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *
> ...except that I need more students to study the Art vs just talking about it.:rofl:
> ...



If Mr. Duffy wasn't so close (30mins away...) to me, I'd let you drive over here and teach me.
 

But I think the point has already been made indirectly.

We don't study the same system anymore.  If Rank is your instructor's opinion of you, then when we were all students of Mr. Parker (either directly or indirectly because we were 2nd/3rd... Generation students) your rank reflected Mr. Parker' opinion of you.

After his death everyone got a new instructor.  Some people took themselves to be their own instructor because they were self-correcting perhaps (which is the goal of Kenpo anyway) and thougth "Dude, I'm a 10th!" or whatever.  I think that in Infinite Insightst Mr. Parker says that once you have become self-correcting you only need an instructor to introduce new concepts.  I guess some of the Seniors think they are done?

By the way, is it true that Mr. Parker used 2 bars with a black stripe in between to indicate there was room for improvement?  It seems that otherwise one solid red bar would have indicated 10th.

OK, back to the topic.  If you only need an instructor to introduce new material then I guess you are in a pickle if you don't know anyone who has new material you want.  I can see how this would cause a 1st Generation student to stay independent.

I think that until someone comes along like Mr. Parker and demonstrates beyond question that they have more skill and expertise than Everybody, that there is no chance of "unifying" Kenpo "again."

In the mean time, out of humility perhaps, many people have sought out an instructor just to keep them honest in their training.  This is a good goal and a function of an instructor.  Also, some of the seniors have decided to stay at 9th and I think they did this for a few reasons such as:
1. They recognize that Mr. Parker knew stuff and had skills at the time of his death that they do not yet have
2. They want to grant Mr. Parker a distinction to recognize his superior skill and a way to do this is to maintain that he is and will continue to be better than you are by means of not claiming either his same Rank or Position
3. They want to demonstrate both that they do not know everything yet, and that they are still seeking knowlege and one way to do this is to keep a carrot like another stripe (10th for example) out in front of them as both a symbol and a reminder that they are not there yet.

If I have not made any false assumptions then I've now got my answer.  This is it.  I'm with Gou now (more or less).  Mr. Parker is not around to look at my belt and gague my progress so my belt has no real meaning to anyone but my teacher and my fellow students in my own school, who may look to me for assistance.

This also helps me estimate the value of a Black Belt so I'm glad this thread has served a purpose.  I originally wanted to learn what Mr. Parker was teaching, but Mr. Duffy is using the 16 Technique curriculum
http://www.akfkenpo.com/curriculum/index.html
and so while the material is all there, the Ranks are not the same, so they don't "mean" the same thing.  I've been having some trouble with this.

But now I "remember" that the only thing that really matters is what you are learning, how it works and how good you are at it.  Of course, you need a good instructor.  Since I have a good instructor and he is teaching good material I think I'm in good shape now.

I think the Rank thing is a symptom of the disentegration of the Kenpo Family.  We can no longer get together at a function as students of Mr. Parker and estimate our selves in relation to each other.  This is sad.  I think a lot of people feel this way and it is likely the source of most all debate over rank, and even position.

I think it demonstrates that we would all be "happier" if we could get back together again and share Kenpo and get better, but it is too bad.  Rank has lost a lot of its previous luster in that it is no longer a uniform International standard (since Mr. Parker is not our teacher), but it does now continue to serve many of its original purposes, such as
-allowing your instructor look out onto the mat and see who's where in the curriculum
-allowing your fellow classmates to look around and see who might know move "x" well enough to help them with it
-allowing a student to chart their progress through their instructor's material.

Thanks guys.  Let me know if I got any of this wrong.  But I think I got it.
:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by cdhall _*
> We don't study the same system anymore.  If Rank is your instructor's opinion of you, then when we were all students of Mr. Parker (either directly or indirectly because we were 2nd/3rd... Generation students) your rank reflected Mr. Parker' opinion of you.
> *



Wrong, you have several misconceptions................. we do study the same system..... but you do get the interpretation of your current instructor thrown in.  

Your rank "IS" your instructor's opinion of where he views you... "YOUR IMMEDIATE INSTRUCTOR" NOT Mr. Parker or anyone else.

You were "never" a "STUDENT" of Mr. Parkers!  Yes, you were under his lineage but your Instructor was "always"  Mr. Duffy (who studied with His instructor of the time).  Your rank NEVER reflected Mr. Parkers opinion of you (unless he tested you for a specific rank) but rather your current instructor or testing board.




> *
> After his death everyone got a new instructor.
> *



Unfortunately ...... no not "everyone" got a new instructor, and at his death many didn't have definite instructors then.



> *
> Some people took themselves to be their own instructor because they were self-correcting perhaps (which is the goal of Kenpo anyway) and thought "Dude, I'm a 10th!" or whatever.
> *



Many took the opportunity to be their own instructor and do exactly as they wish (properly or not).  Everyone should become self correcting to some degree at some point but many do not have the time in grade and maturity to be able to do this, thus you DO get the attitude...... "Dude, I'm a 10th!" or whatever I want to be and justify it however they want. 



> *
> I think that in Infinite Insights Mr. Parker says that once you have become self-correcting you only need an instructor to introduce new concepts.
> *



Show me ........."Where"..... in the Infinite Insights it says "when you become self correcting you only need an instructor to introduce you to new concepts"?



> *
> I guess some of the Seniors think they are done?
> *



Only the ones that don't understand what Ed Parker's American Kenpo is really about.  The Good ones realize they have much to explore, expand, and share!



> *
> By the way, is it true that Mr. Parker used 2 bars with a black stripe in between to indicate there was room for improvement?  It seems that otherwise one solid red bar would have indicated 10th.
> *



He always said there was  room for improvement....:rofl: but the stripes were Logic in process..... you have a stripe for 1st thru 4th Black.... he didn't want to continue having just stripes up the belt...(which he did initially) but then got the idea for a 5" "bar" for 5th.  Once you went to 6th it was only "logical" that you add just another 1/2" stripe for 6th thru  9th, till 10th... then you add another 5" Bar!  Thus making his own unique rank deionization for HIS Art of EPAK.  No one else used that except us.  There are copy cats today.



> *
> OK, back to the topic.  If you only need an instructor to introduce new material then I guess you are in a pickle if you don't know anyone who has new material you want.  I can see how this would cause a 1st Generation student to stay independent.
> *



Which is why this is not true.  There is always someone that knows more than you ....... your job is to seek and find, not sit and stagnate through the disguise of independence.  Now go start digging!!



> *
> I think that until someone comes along like Mr. Parker and demonstrates beyond question that they have more skill and expertise than Everybody, that there is no chance of "unifying" Kenpo "again."
> *



LOL, What are you talking about........ Kenpo was not unified in the first place!!!  It would not take a person as Unique as Mr. Parker to accomplish this, it would take the cooperation of several Individuals that want to work collectively to a common goal, if that is necessary.



> *
> In the mean time, out of humility perhaps, many people have sought out an instructor just to keep them honest in their training.
> *



I don't think it is out of Humility or to keep honest, but rather the smart ones seek out "Senior Instructors" that have more knowledge than themselves so as to continue to learn and advance adequately in Ed Parkers American Kenpo.



> *
> Some of the seniors have decided to stay at 9th and I think they did this for a few reasons such as:
> 1. They recognize that Mr. Parker knew stuff and had skills at the time of his death that they do not yet have
> 2. They want to grant Mr. Parker a distinction to recognize his superior skill and a way to do this is to maintain that he is and will continue to be better than you are by means of not claiming either his same Rank or Position
> ...



I think some are just putting in time and will eventually become 10ths at some point......... others "out of respect" will never take a 10th.  Both thoughts have merit.  Mr. Parker did say that there could be another 10th but also meant that it should be attained in the proper manner and not lightly or cheaply acquired without credibility.

Not having rank DOES NOT mean that an individual does not know what he/she is doing.  I can show you several examples where there are extremely high rankers that do NOT have as much knowledge as several lower Black Belts have.  

Remember the words of Ed Parker himself ..... "Although belt colors show, it is no proof that you know".   Likewise, just because the belt doesn't show is no indication that the don't know either!! 

All the True/Great upper ranks or Seniors (as the new terminology today labels) ..... Are all students and will tell you that they are learning right along with you (just at a different level and different areas).



> *
> I'm with Gou now (more or less).  Mr. Parker is not around to look at my belt and gauge my progress so my belt has no real meaning to anyone but my teacher and my fellow students in my own school, who may look to me for assistance.
> *



I'm not so sure that is what Gou is saying, but I disagree with your statement....... Mr. Parker is NOT around to look at your belt and gage your progress..... but your instructor is -- and that is who matters.  Based upon his opinion the rest of us can gage that you are in a particular area of knowledge (brown) nothing specific mind you because we may all have differing opinions of what skill and knowledge is but a "general idea" of "about" where in the martial arts world you should stand.  So of course it "HAS MEANING" to others but not as much as in your immediate circle and studio.



> *
> I originally wanted to learn what Mr. Parker was teaching, but Mr. Duffy is using the 16 Technique curriculum
> http://www.akfkenpo.com/curriculum/index.html
> and so while the material is all there, the Ranks are not the same, so they don't "mean" the same thing.  I've been having some trouble with this.
> *



So, Mr. Duffy is NOT teaching you what Mr. Parker was teaching?  I'll have you know that Mr. Parker "liked the 16 technique curriculum" that Brian had started to work on and that was shared with several others myself included, and have stated before that if Mr. Parker were alive today, I believe that everyone would be using it.  You Grossly misunderstand what you are learning.  (Doug, sometimes I want to just kick you!!! :jediduel: just wait till I get you at camp), The Ranks ARE the same and they DO mean the same, the ONLY difference is that they are extended into Black belt a bit farther(the same way in which the 24 curriculum extended the 32 system from green into 3rd Black because we needed Black material).

I don't understand what "Trouble" you are having but you are wasting time and energy and should be working on the material itself and not worry about what was more on what is!!  Redirect your energies LUKE use the force...... before I have to on you!!



> *
> But now I "remember" that the only thing that really matters is what you are learning, how it works and how good you are at it.  Of course, you need a good instructor.  Since I have a good instructor and he is teaching good material I think I'm in good shape now.
> *



Oh, so now you are just realizing what I said...... quit the babbling.  You do have a great instructor and he is teaching great material.



> *
> I think the Rank thing is a symptom of the disintegration of the Kenpo Family.  We can no longer get together at a function as students of Mr. Parker and estimate our selves in relation to each other.  This is sad.  I think a lot of people feel this way and it is likely the source of most all debate over rank, and even position.
> *



Nope, rank is rank, it has always been and always be a subjective topic, it serves its purpose locally and publicly when needed, problem is ........ too many "FOCUS ON JUST RANK" and not the knowledge, skill, or uniqueness of the individual......  If you are a white  thru green you are in the beginning phase, if a brown in an intermediate phase, and Black you are considered in an advanced phase........ exactly "where" in that phase is arbitrary and doesn't really matter.  This is not sad today nor has it ever been.  Possibly you desire exact placement when in a group or crowd..... hmmmmmmmm hard to do that it is (nose wrinkles).   This is most  definitely the source of debate over rank and position...... and will continue to be... so don't waste any time in this room.



> *
> I think it demonstrates that we would all be "happier" if we could get back together again and share Kenpo and get better, but it is too bad.
> *



Hmmmmmm, Now I'm confused......  don't we do that now anyway at camps and seminars and individually when we get together and YES even here on the web (I feel everyone is happy-- correct me if I'm wrong) ...... Gezzzzzze you are worse off than I originally thought ..... try Prozac or call your Dr.



> *
> Rank has lost a lot of its previous luster in that it is no longer a uniform International standard (since Mr. Parker is not our teacher),
> *



I will let Mr. Duffy know that your rank is lackluster, since there is no "INTERNATIONAL STANDARD", by the way...... psssssssttttttt  (never has been one).   Even when Mr. Parker was alive... there was variances in quality within ranks.  You need to be schooled more in value within rank, all its variances and why.



> *
> Rank does continue to serve many of its original purposes, such as:
> -allowing your instructor look out onto the mat and see who's where in the curriculum
> -allowing your fellow classmates to look around and see who might know move "x" well enough to help them with it
> ...



Ahhhhhhh you are quite observant weedhopper!!



> *
> Thanks.  Let me know if I got any of this wrong.  But I think I got it.
> *



I just did.  Although I doubt you "get it" at all.  

But I did try.  (now I know why tigers eat their young)!!
;D


:asian::asian:


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## GouRonin (Jun 18, 2002)

Leave me outa this one guys!
 
Dennis and I have different interpretations of rank and belts.
:shrug:


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## ikenpo (Jun 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



Dude,

Too... much... typing.... brain is about to explode....

Break up those thoughts into digestible chuncks. 


I guess I sort of see what your saying...at other schools they have all extensions by 3rd Black, right? Is this that big of a deal?

jb:asian:


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## cdhall (Jun 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *
> Show me ........."Where"..... in the Infinite Insights it says "when you become self correcting you only need an instructor to introduce you to new concepts"?
> 
> :asian::asian: *



Vol 1, p. 98, paragraph 10, 4th line from the bottom:
"At this level, an instructor is not  needed to alter the concepts, but rather only needed to add newer concepts not yet learned."
:asian:


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## cdhall (Jun 19, 2002)

Mr. C said (I can't get  the quote to work properly)
"You Grossly misunderstand what you are learning. (Doug, sometimes I want to just kick you!!!  just wait till I get you at camp)"

Doug continues:
Sir, I agree with you about the 16 technique Curriculum.  I have no significant disagreement with you.

Also let me say that when I said "unify" Kenpo "again" the quotes were meant to show that this was not literal.  
:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by cdhall _*
> Vol 1, p. 98, paragraph 10, 4th line from the bottom:"At this level, an instructor is not  needed to alter the concepts, but rather only needed to add newer concepts not yet learned."
> *



But you were talking about "self correcting" not one that may alter concepts.....

Silly rabbit..

:asian:


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## cdhall (Jun 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



I'm sorry sir, this is not working very well for me. I am not trying to irritate you or be disrespectful of your time or expertise, but the previous 2 sentences add to the point as follows:

"With conceptual logic learned at the correct level of student maturity, self-correction, because of properly learned concepts, becomes automatic.  A student can then logically rule out any contradictory concepts that conflict with his or her advance training.  At this level, an instructor is not needed to alter the concepts, but rather only needed to add newer concepts not yet learned."

I took that as one train of thought.
:asian:


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## Rainman (Jun 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> 
> *
> Quickly I'll add that some traditional Goju/Karate friends of mine and even Chinese Kung-Fu resources have said, roughly, that you are ranked up to 4th Black based on your proficiency and knowledge of the system (Mr. Parker had his charts stop at 3rd coincidentally).  After this, Promotion Boards commonly elevate you further based on your contributions to the art.  But in most all cases you are "elevated" by boards consisting of your seniors, so how does that system maintain itself?
> ...



They stopped at 5th- Knife set.     There is a curriculum for the club and knife, the forms are just the beginning.


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by cdhall _*
> I'm sorry sir, this is not working very well for me. I am not trying to irritate you or be disrespectful of your time or expertise, but the previous 2 sentences add to the point as follows:
> 
> "With conceptual logic learned at the correct level of student maturity, self-correction, because of properly learned concepts, becomes automatic.  A student can then logically rule out any contradictory concepts that conflict with his or her advance training.  At this level, an instructor is not needed to alter the concepts, but rather only needed to add newer concepts not yet learned."
> ...



LOL...... I know you are not..... If I didn't know you and your instructor personally I wouldn't be so hard on you either...... :rofl: 

Ok Ok....... I'll give you one flight feather for your post and research.  I still feel that your instructor always has an important place in your life...... but the older and wiser you get (just as in life parents allow more and more freedom - but remain in the picture as a consultants)  

Always remember Instructors.............

You need to give your students "2" Important Things.........
Roots ... and ...  Wings.

:asian:


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## C.E.Jackson (Jun 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> 
> *I know, I'm just letting my sarcasm out. I love EPAK and the way people are treating it lately, well, it just kills me. if we could just remove the politics I am sure it'd get rid of the crap that it's brought and stop the art from being made into the next TKD.
> 
> By the way, I have seen Huk in his undies and yes he can kick butt no matter what he's wearing. Of course at the time I think I was wearing my underwear on my head with my sunglasses on and we were drinking Canadian Whiskey. *



Gou? Sarcastic?! I'd not noticed!!!:rofl: 

CJ


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## Michael Billings (Jun 19, 2002)

Guys,

Whew!!!  MR. C ... Double whew.  Call each other guys, your fingers won't get as tired.

No seriously, a good "discussion" that I benefited from.  I like the perspective you have Dennis, and the role the "Teacher" has.  

Doug, just cause you go to a camp and don't know all the techniques the other Brown Belts do, does not mean they are "better" than you (If that in fact is a cause of your distress.)  You have the same time in grade, if not a million years more. The quality of your movement according to Concepts, Principles, and Theories, combined with "DO YA MAKE IT WORK" in a Black Belt technique line, should give you some affirmation regarding where you stand in EPAC.  Mr. Duffy has never "given" a promotion lightly.  You always earn what you get ... or ya don't get it!!!!  He is one of the ones that would actually fail you or not let you test.  Keep it Real Doug.

-Michael Billings
UKS-Texas


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 19, 2002)

hell, I don't know what CD (thats what we need to call him since there are many Doug's here) is complaining about...... Everybody knows more techniques than I do.......... LOL..... It's not the number of techniques you know but the way you apply the pain.
(that's a GD7 original)   

But just let me "bite" you......... hee heee

The IronWorker cometh..........
:asian:


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## Michael Billings (Jun 19, 2002)

Who was talking about Mr. Pick?  Oh, you mean Sigung LaBounty?  Just foolin'.  You have forgotten more techniques than I have learned, and we came through similar systems, I was just a late bloomer. 

I can get with calling Doug "CD".  Crashed Down, Crazy Dude, Computer Don, etc.  He can run, but he can't hide.  By the way, won't you be on his panel at Mr. Duffy's camp?  Hee-hee-hee (with sardonic malice and delight)

-Michael
UKS-Texas


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 19, 2002)

I will be.......

:wavey:


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## Rob_Broad (Jun 20, 2002)

Rank is only as important as WE make it.  I still have my original Black Belt, and it has been with me through all the lumps.  It will finally be repalced when I have an instructor that thinks I am worthy of a new rank.

I have been seeing too many people bogged down with the quantity of what they know not the quality.  I personally feel this should be corrected.


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## cdhall (Jun 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> 
> *By the way, won't you be on his panel at Mr. Duffy's camp?  Hee-hee-hee (with sardonic malice and delight)
> 
> ...





> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *I will be.......
> 
> :wavey: *



Ahem.

I think I'll also have to spar Mr. C on any test I have at camp.  

One of Mr. Duffy's black belts had to spar Mr. C on his Black Belt test and says that Mr. C was imperceptably fast.  Fortunately I think I have until Oct 2003 to get ready for this.:uhohh:


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## Seig (Jun 23, 2002)

Start wearing wrist weights and ankle weights while you train!


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## cdhall (Jun 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> 
> *Start wearing wrist weights and ankle weights while you train! *



I think that might be extra bad for the joints.  I used to have some ankle weights but a lot of press came out about how they and wrist weights both stress your joints and how a Weight Vest is better.

However, I have done Short 3 with 5lb dumbells and this is a pretty cool workout.  A friend of mine tells me that he also does Striking Set every night with 5lb dumbells as therapy for his rotator cuff.  So I may be onto something.  This seems like it might be a better alternative.  For the first few weeks of my going back to the gym, I'm going to concentrate on Leg exercises before adding upper body routines. I need to drop some weight right now, so working the legs will be the best way to start I think.  

Also, I may have posted this elsewhere, but Mr. Duffy ran us through Every Set and Form one night from Yellow to Brown!  MAN, I don't remember how long it took (well over 30mins) but it was surely better than TaeBo or any other Cardio Program!  We did not stop.  I think it lasted about 45mins, but it may have been longer.

I plan to start that as well as part of my review.  Maybe not Everything, but 30mins worth.  Maybe Sets in the AM and Forms in the PM.  Just a thought.  Thank you.


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## Seig (Jun 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> 
> *
> 
> ...


Good point!


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## GouRonin (Jun 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *I think that might be extra bad for the joints.  I used to have some ankle weights but a lot of press came out about how they and wrist weights both stress your joints and how a Weight Vest is better.*



Holy moly! I agree with CD Hall! The end must be near!

Weight vests are great and better than ankle weights. My boxing coach preferred his fighters use the weight vests. His only exception was during excercises that will cause the person to bounce arobically etc. That puts too much unnatural strain on the legs, Knees and ankles etc. If you are overweight now think of what it will do with extra weight trying to loose the weight. Not good. But overall weight vests are good. Just be careful.



> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *Also, I may have posted this elsewhere, but Mr. Duffy ran us through Every Set and Form one night from Yellow to Brown!  MAN, I don't remember how long it took (well over 30mins) but it was surely better than TaeBo or any other Cardio Program!  We did not stop.  I think it lasted about 45mins, but it may have been longer.*



How do you figure it was better? What are you basing this on?


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## RCastillo (Jun 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> 
> *
> Good point! *



My sentiments, exactly!:asian:


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## Kirk (Jun 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> 
> *If you are overweight now think of what it will do with extra weight trying to loose the weight. Not good. *



HUH?  Come again?
How are the good for the thin man, but not good for the fat man?


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## Klondike93 (Jun 25, 2002)

I like to do all the ones I know, which is up to short 3 for a good cardio workout. I want to try more of the dumbbells. I did short 1 once and it was great for my arms and shoulders.

Then do some Tae-Bo for a finisher  


:asian:


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## GouRonin (Jun 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *HUH?  Come again? How are they good for the thin man, but not good for the fat man? *



As much as people might not like to admit it, your ankles, and especially your knees can only handle so much weight. No matter who you are. If you are already taxing them with weight, then adding more weight to try and force your body to lose extra pounds will not help.

This would be in cases with very large people. A lot of weight is not good on the lower carrige of a body. I am talking instances where there is larger than usual amounts.


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## Kirk (Jun 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> 
> *This would be in cases with very large people. A lot of weight is not good on the lower carrige of a body. I am talking instances where there is larger than usual amounts. *



That would be me!  BUT ... that's why I started kenpo in the
first place, to do something about it.


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## RCastillo (Jun 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



Medium build for me, but..........Do I smell discrimination  towards us heavy guys around here?:samurai: 

You don't want guys like me, and Kirk Power Bombing you guys!:rofl:


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## cdhall (Jun 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> 
> *
> How do you figure it was better? What are you basing this on? *


I'm glad I read this before I posted something in response to Goun on another thread.  Praise God.  Anyway, Gou agrees with me!  I think I often agree with things he says.

But, I mean "better" because:
1. It would directly compliment your Kenpo training
2. I know that there are proper body mechanics involved in doing the sets and forms and I am not sure, although I confess that I do not know first hand, that TaeBo teaches how to properly throw a punch or kick or whatever.  I think that even if it does this may not be emphasized so that if a TaeBo person were to actually have to punch someone (like they claim on the tape) they may have a greater risk of damaging their wrist for example, through the improper formation and deployment of the fist.

Regardless of the merits of 2., I would prefer Kenpo because the principles are sound and the workout would also be "practice."

That is what I meant.  No offense to TaeBo.  I have reccomended it to my Sister and others.  Incidentally, Gilbert Velez thanks that because of the interest TaeBo has generated, that Billy Blanks deserves a medal.  And Mr. Velez also says that he has developed a Kenpo Based aerobics based on the points I've made above. I may have gotten this from him anyway, from his section in the Journey.


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## Michael Billings (Jun 26, 2002)

Bob Liles has developed and been doing a Kenpo Aerobics class for about 2 years now (ever since he recovered from the hip replacement.)  It is an awsome workout and I understand he did it in Germany last year, and if I am not mistaken, in Spain this year. It is totally inspiring to watch 100 or so Kenpoist doing Parting Wings as part of a 45 minute class of non-stop motion.  He was doing the same workout at the gym several times a day.  Of course it may not be as inspiring to see non-Kenpoist trying to do a technique (snicker, snicker), remember, we all did not always know Kenpo.  

-Michael
UKS-Texas


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 28, 2002)

:asian:


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## Seig (Jun 28, 2002)

Does wearing an allegedly bullet proof vest count as a weight vest?


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 29, 2002)

if it's full of bullets and not holes....... holes  have no weight!

:asian: 

:rofl:


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## Seig (Jun 29, 2002)

I know a few 'holes and I could strongly disagree with you on that point!


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 29, 2002)




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## Ronin (Jun 30, 2002)

I tell ya these forums are out of control!!!!


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## Seig (Jun 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> * *


a@@holes


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## jazkiljok (Jun 30, 2002)

the original rank concept was for kids in a classroom environment.

it is japanese in origin, even though adopted by many other asian and eclectic based arts.

even JKD has rank-like system. it's  not as obvious  but you move up a latter never the less. 

in the old days (before 20th century) it was simply teacher and student- those at teacher levels shared info and readliy acknowledged superior ability and knowledge of other teachers- or fought to find out.

rank promotion is overly emphasized for adults. its relevance is only as some here stated to schools and organizations and that's from a business stand point mainly. i.e. no promotion, no long term commitment and don't forget those fees.

any method of rank promotion is valid within itself. peer voting, higher ranks pulling you up, lower ranks pushing you forward- it all is as good as the next.

after black -- people in the end decide what they want in higher or lower ranks- some turn it down, some will run around to different sources to obtain more.

there are no standards from org to school to garage. never was.

rank also has no meaning to individuals who seek no students and learn for their own benefit alone. 

basic Calisthenics for 30 minutes before a training session 5 times a week will keep you in pretty good shape.


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Seig _*
> a@@holes
> *



Ohhhhhhhh 

roflmao

:rofl:


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## cdhall (Jul 1, 2002)

As far as the merits of a Belt Rankings system go, I agree almost entirely with Infinite Insights vol 1, ch 10, pgs 97-99.

The only issue I see is that we "forget" that Ranks have no value/less value outside of your studio.  Ranks are not to show the cashier at the Grocery store, or the Kung-Fu Master at the Shaolin Temple (unless that is your system).  They are to let everyone know where they are in relation to where they are going... and this is sometimes meaningless to a person who is not studying with or teaching you.  They are an aid to teaching as well as a motivation to studay and advance.  I'm done with my 2 cents. 

I hope.
:asian:


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## kenpopr (Jul 2, 2005)

Sorry guys but I kind of lost the thread here. . . .

The question I think was how we achieved the rank. . . 

I know I am not a veteran as many MA here in this forum, but my opinion is simple. . . . rank has the purpose you put into it. It is all part of human nature. 

Also, why do we have to prove to others what rank we are?! I have been in AKK for 15 years now and I currently have a 1st Degree BB. . . i know of people nearby that were white belts when I was green and/or brown and now they are 3rd or 4th degree black belts. . . how did they get there before I did?! I don't know and I don't particularly care. BUT whether they deserve it or not I extend them my respect. In the long run, knowledge and skill is what determines your actual ranking. 

Time? Yes, I do believe time has its merit and should be a promotional (ranking) tool, but time should only be used when time is used wisely. Just because you were 5 years as a certain degree does not mean you are ready for the next one. 

So, I guess this could be one of those questions with no true answer since it all depends from your own point of view. I guess that my final saying would be . . . . ranking should be analyzed and determined the way SGM Ed Parker told us to view our techniques. 

"Having three points of view will help increase your perspective".
- Infinite Insights into Kenpo; Book1:Mental Stimulation
Introduction, page1

So what could be your three points of view in your ranking?!
1. Your direct teacher, professor, sensei (Whatever you want to call him!)
2. Your MA style community; such as organizations or associations
3. Yourself!!


Full Salute to all!! 

Luis Gines
www.KenpoPR.com


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## Thesemindz (Jul 2, 2005)

I've often thought about this myself. Specifically with regards to whether a fourth black training on the sixteen system was the same as a fourth black on the 24 or 32 technique system. In my experience training with students from a variety of martial arts at a variety of ranks, including advanced ranks, brown, black, or the equivalent in judo, several systems of kenpo, muy thai, several systems of tkd, okinawan kenpo, capoeria, aikido, juijistu, and bjj, I've come to see rank as being mostly generally equivalent. Brown belts across systems may not have the same amount of techniques, they may not have the same depth of understanding or curriculum, but they are generally intermediate in their area of expertise. Color belts are generally beginners, and get gradually more solid as beginners as the move up. Black belts are generally adaptable and grounded. When I'm in a room of brown belts, you can kinda tell, from the conversations they have, which we had at that time too, to the way they move and how hard they hit. After enough exposure you could look at a group of people doing different martial arts without any noticable ranking and probably group them according to general proficiency and be generally correct. This is generally true of alot of other skills too. I've noticed this in weightlifting, and pizza delivery too. When the experienced veteran just smiles and nods as the novice describes the best way to do anything, as though he's the first person to make that discovery. When there's just black belts in the room, you can usually tell by how much space they maintain around themselves, even in polite conversation. They control that space. White belts tend to stand too close and forget about their environment. Intermediate students eye everyone in the room to size them up, because they finally developed that ability and need to practice it. There are just things that give us away that are alot more telling than how many techniques you have. How many sequenced memorized self-defense techniques did Mr. Parker have to know for his Black Belt test?


-Rob


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## Thesemindz (Jul 2, 2005)

As to the original question, which was how does one recieve rank. I've also been troubled by this, as my instructor is a fifth and after that, I have no one to turn too. I've thought about several ways to promote, including seeking out one new master, seeking out a wide sampling of seniors from different ends of the spectrum with different focuses and missions to endorse my rank so that I could not be accused of any political motivation, taking several of my best students at different ranks to demonstrate their material before a panel to show the quality of the instruction I give and the Kenpo I perpetuate, applying to a panel of masters from a variety of martial arts, and other similar ideas. None are easy or simple, but I feel that rank is important, and worthy, especially at that level, of sacrifice and effort. Ultimately, I have decided to burn that bridge when I get to it. I have many years before I need to worry about where to go for my sixth black. For now, I will stay with my current instructor, train as hard as I can to learn everything he will share with me, and do my best to pass that on to the students assigned to my care. I have a responsibility to the future of Kenpo and martial arts in general to do the best I can right here while I'm here. In ten or fifteen years when I need to test for my sixth black, I will no doubt have a vastly different perspective than I do now, and will probably be in a better position to make an informed decision about how best to pursue it. For me, rank is a reflection of my dedication and contribution to the art. It is not for ego gratification, it is not for social standing. My wish is to be a legitimate recognized undisputed tenth someday, because the only way to accomplish that is to make great and wonderful contributions to Kenpo, the likes of which Mr. Parker made. The likes of which were passed on to me.


-Rob


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## Sigung86 (Jul 8, 2005)

I'm way late to this discussion and not even "really" Kenpo anymore, but the rank thing is waaaay over rated.

Interestingly, back in those halcyon old days, late 60 and early 70s, after the split between the Tracy's and SGM Parker all fell out, there was lots of people in lots of places who found themselves without places to go.  In those days there wasn't the communication available today, and there was still lots of shake ups and fall outs from various people who didn't have a way to promote due to allegiances and/or distances.

I think a lot of people went where they could to find rank.  For example, my instructor, Dick Ranney, was an involuntary part of a "seperate" civil war that occurred in San Antonio that I am not privy to all the details of, to this day.  But, unless you were privy to certain accesses, there was no promotion beyond third.  Dick Ranney, who has since quit teaching and walked away from Kenpo, eventually ended up taking his climb to 5th degree under Don Nahoolewa, in Kajukembo ...  Which was, as I understand it, a seperatist movement, at the time from Kajukenbo, and yet somehow, ended up being ranked up under Adriano Emperado.  Phew... Hope you can follow that, I don't know if I can redescribe it.

Interestingly, the same kind of crap continues to this day, over 30 years later... Nothing has changed much.  And so, I have to conclude that rank is nothing more than what you want it to be.  You can make an association, write bylaws that allow for automatic promotion, word it however you want, and Shazaam!  It is valid.  

Or, it can happen as it happened to me... Al Tracy told me that as long as I was loyal, my promotions were set up to continue to go.  I was told, off the record as it were, that Al was going to have another gathering of eagles at some future date, and that he was planning to have me in, promoted to eighth dan and considered for his Kenpo Hall of Fame.  Then, on the whim of several politically oriented people.  Bang!  All gone.

I was contacted by several people who indicated that were I to start an association, that they would collectively promote me to 10th degree as the head...  I passed on that,  and so it goes.

So, rank really doesn't matter much in the end.  You can make it belts with stripes, sashes with sew on stars (some of the Chinese), educational types of ranking like Doc Chapél does (which in the West really makes more sense), or you can simply give out certificates of proficiency.  In the end... It's only what you make it... Or, in the end ... Nothing at all.


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## BKing (Jul 9, 2005)

Hi Dan,

Well, You rank right up there with me !  

What happened to my 4th of July Cyber Burger and Fries ... ??

Hope you are well...

and can you make that a Cheese Burger please ?

Take care,
BK


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## Sigung86 (Jul 9, 2005)

BKing said:
			
		

> Hi Dan,
> 
> Well, You rank right up there with me !
> 
> ...



OOOOOOOOOOOOOOooopppppsss!!!!
Er ...  I was busy??? -->  :ladysman: 

Ummm ... There were these three guys with knives!!!    %-}  %-}  %-} 

Ulp.... I guess I fo'got!  Sorry!  :angel: 

One cyber cheeseburger comin' up!    :ultracool 

Hey BKing!  Hope things are going very well for you up yonder and over.  Glad to hear from you.


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## Doc (Jul 9, 2005)

Sigung86 said:
			
		

> I'm way late to this discussion and not even "really" Kenpo anymore, but the rank thing is waaaay over rated.
> 
> Interestingly, back in those halcyon old days, late 60 and early 70s, after the split between the Tracy's and SGM Parker all fell out, there was lots of people in lots of places who found themselves without places to go.  In those days there wasn't the communication available today, and there was still lots of shake ups and fall outs from various people who didn't have a way to promote due to allegiances and/or distances.
> 
> ...


You know I've been considering switching to "hats." We can make them different colors and sizes with unique markings. And the really high ranking get to wear one of those jobs from the seventies. You know, wide brim, purple with a wide snakeskin band. Wear that bad boy tilted to the side, and everybody will know who the "Grandmaster Pimp Daddy" is. Say wha sucka? Sheeeet, you dont know who you be messin with.


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## Dan G (Jul 9, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> You know I've been considering switching to "hats." We can make them different colors and sizes with unique markings. And the really high ranking get to wear one of those jobs from the seventies. You know, wide brim, purple with a wide snakeskin band. Wear that bad boy tilted to the side, and everybody will know who the "Grandmaster Pimp Daddy" is. Say wha sucka? Sheeeet, you dont know who you be messin with.


Or perhaps kilts, (provided everyone absolutely refrains from kicking above the waist) :barf: 

Dan


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## Doc (Jul 9, 2005)

Dan G said:
			
		

> Or perhaps kilts, (provided everyone absolutely refrains from kicking above the waist) :barf:
> 
> Dan


Screw that man, I've seen fat people in dresses. It ain't a pretty sight when you gotta bend over.


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## Kenpoist (Jul 9, 2005)

Dan G said:
			
		

> Or perhaps kilts, (provided everyone absolutely refrains from kicking above the waist) :barf:
> 
> Dan


It might bring new meaning to techniques like "SNAKING talon" and GOD forbid "squeezing the peach" - let's skip the kilt laddie!


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## Dan G (Jul 10, 2005)

Kenpoist said:
			
		

> It might bring new meaning to techniques like "SNAKING talon" and GOD forbid "squeezing the peach" - let's skip the kilt laddie!


or Flashing mace...



			
				Doc said:
			
		

> Screw that man, I've seen fat people in dresses. It ain't a pretty sight when you gotta bend over.


It would be a something of a sartorial shocker... but a handy way of encouraging anatomically aligned kicking...
Also, rather like the kilt wearing Highland Regiments and those Greek special forces types that parade in white mini skirts and shoes with pom-poms on the toes you'd just know that anyone in a 10th degree tartan must be pretty confident in their ability to handle themselves... 

:viking3: On reflection perhaps hats are the way forward after all...:viking1:

Dan


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