# Ninjutsu on Discovery Channel



## Shogun (May 25, 2004)

June 2nd there is supposed to be a show about Ninjutsu starring Steven Hayes. mark your calendars. I know I am. Hayes is going to try and stealth his way past, I believe its the LAPD SWAT team. Yay.


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## Cruentus (May 25, 2004)

Shogun said:
			
		

> June 2nd there is supposed to be a show about Ninjutsu starring Steven Hayes. mark your calendars. I know I am. Hayes is going to try and stealth his way past, I believe its the LAPD SWAT team. Yay.



Yea. I'm sure that'll be wildly accurate and unbiased.  :rofl: I'll watch it too though, like the sheeple I that I am.


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## Shogun (May 25, 2004)

well I doubt it's going to be super realistic, I'm sure it'll be entertaining. I am looking forward to it. I think the attitude of the SWAT team is going to be a little more relaxed than if it were a real situation.

I also have another question? does anyone's Ninjutsu school do Hojutsu training? I find it interesting, that this is a part of Ninjutsu that was created in the 13 hundreds, and still is very practical today. My Ninjutsu Instructor has 3 different days with 3 different classes. He does Kihon on mondays, General class on tuesdays (pretty much whatever we want to work on), and grappling and weapons on thursdays. its great 'cause weapons, although there is some traditional, is mostly Hojutsu, classical and modern.

Tulisan, might I ask, what problems do you have with Mr Hayes? 

Regards,
Kyle


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## Cruentus (May 25, 2004)

Shogun said:
			
		

> well I doubt it's going to be super realistic, I'm sure it'll be entertaining. I am looking forward to it. I think the attitude of the SWAT team is going to be a little more relaxed than if it were a real situation.
> 
> I also have another question? does anyone's Ninjutsu school do Hojutsu training? I find it interesting, that this is a part of Ninjutsu that was created in the 13 hundreds, and still is very practical today. My Ninjutsu Instructor has 3 different days with 3 different classes. He does Kihon on mondays, General class on tuesdays (pretty much whatever we want to work on), and grappling and weapons on thursdays. its great 'cause weapons, although there is some traditional, is mostly Hojutsu, classical and modern.
> 
> ...



No problems with Hayes; I don't know him but I hear that he is very skilled. My problem is more with discovery. If you saw that extreme martial arts special, you'd know what I mean. Manytimes those specials are chasing fantasy and sensationalism, not reality. 

I'll probably watch the special, and I'll probably enjoy it. All I am saying is wear your critical thinking cap when you watch it, thats all.
 :asian:


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## tshadowchaser (May 25, 2004)

I tend to agree that discovery could be a little more real with some of the things thy have presented as Martial Arts.
When is this great feat going to be aired?? I'll most likely watch also if there are no hockey games on at that time.


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## Shogun (May 26, 2004)

I am not sure on the time, but it's "Unsolved History" (good shows) on wednesday June 2nd.


PS has anyone played Tenchu: wrath of heaven, for XBOX? The bonus level, thru the portal, is what I have in mind for Mr. Hayes.


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## arnisador (May 27, 2004)

I'll look for this show!


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## Jay Bell (May 27, 2004)

SPOILER!

Hayes wins


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## Cryozombie (Jun 3, 2004)

Comments?

I was glad he didnt put on a black suit and try it... it was very ninja-like the way he snuck in.

Clever clever.


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## Cruentus (Jun 3, 2004)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Comments?
> 
> I was glad he didnt put on a black suit and try it... it was very ninja-like the way he snuck in.
> 
> Clever clever.



Fu**in crap! I missed it!   When will they be airing it again, anyone know?

 :asian:


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## Michael Billings (Jun 3, 2004)

Was it on?  Will it replay (most Discovery channel shows do)?  If so, does anyone know when?

 Thanks,
 -Michael


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## loki09789 (Jun 3, 2004)

Watched it, in part.  Liked how they used scientific techniques to confirm/debunk some of the legendary myths of Ninja practices.  Sort of disappointed at the lack of Hatsumi Masaaki stuff, but SKH speaks better English and was easier for the producers to contact I imagine.

I like the general idea that Ninjutsu as a philosophical way of warriorship was seen as similar to special operators approaches of the modern day.  They did a good job of presenting a balanced presentation of some of the more mystical stuff as well.  CIA "remote viewing" test was creepy cool.


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## Cruentus (Jun 3, 2004)

> CIA "remote viewing" test was creepy cool.



Paul M., could you please elaborate for us morons who totally intended to watch the special, but forgot and missed it? (doh!)


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## loki09789 (Jun 3, 2004)

Well, I can give details, but only on what I did see.

They set up an exercise where SKH applied some of his Ninja based skills to try and get to a principle that was being protected in a building at the end of the episode.  I didn't catch the whole episode, but I would guess that the beginning was a very good summary of Ninja history, stories, facts... with good interviews with insiders who 'believe' and outsiders who either agree or disagree with the insiders - but presented maturely (I am a Discover Network of channels and History Channel addict).

Anyway, at the point where I jumped in, Hayes was impersonating a maintenance guy and using all his training to try to get to the principle (protectee) and it took him 4 hours of snow jobbing, but he got it done.

After that they addressed the topic of Ninja mind reading/mystical powers.  They used an actual CIA 'remote viewer' (clinical term for 'seer'/'mystic'/'fortune teller') who was running a real time experiment (while SKH was doing his operation so that any energies put out by the principal would be strongest) with a room of 'remote viewers' that only had a little info on the building and had to try and locate the principal in the building after only being briefed on the outline and general description of the property (but no details of floorplans or anything else).

The accuracy was suprisingly creepy.  Some things were right around 50% accurate (so chancie) but other details were 75% to 90% accurate.  Some of the 'snapshot' images that the remote viewers sketched were dead on to the building though.  THings like building design details (doors, ornamentations, window gratings...) were exact.  I guess the idea was to say that CIA operations were similar to Ninja operations/networks so if it was at least reasonably experimented with and tried now, it had to have some reasonable validity in the past.  Of course there were the critics who said mind reading and such were created by the Ninja community to build the legend around them for psych op affect.  Who knows.  I was impressed with the whol thing and with the idea that projects like the "Jedi Project" and other 'voodoo' types of projects by the government sort of lend credence to the possibility of unexplained energies/powers.

The replay was at 1 or 2 am and I had to get up for school so I couldn't really watch it....


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## theletch1 (Jun 3, 2004)

Paul, the show wanted to see if ancient ninja techniques were still viable in todays world so they set up a little competition.  SKH vs a navy SEAL team.  Two pro body guards were assigned to protect a target on the top floor of a house.  The guards were told to expect some kind of attack within a ten hour period.  The SEAL team attacked first in typical SEAL fashion...sweep and destroy with guns blazing.  The target was dead in a matter of minutes.  SKH then set about making his attempt.  He used ninja invisibility to get to the target.  What was cool about the show was that the "invisibility" wasn't portrayed as some jedi mind trick but simply SKH dressing up as a crewman for the camera crew and probing the defenses to gather info and gain the trust of the body guards.  He explained that the invisibility was simply becoming what people expect to see so you are simply not looked at closely.  After a couple of trips into the safe house he managed to gain the body guards trust enough to actually get into the room with the target and took him out.

The remote viewing case was an experiment conducted about 9 miles away at the time of the contest between SKH and the SEAL team.  11 remote viewers were givien minimal information about the contest and told to go to it. At the end of the contest they were brought to the safe house to compare notes.  While no-one was 100% on the mark there were enough similarities in what the viewers saw to the actual scene to be down right creepy.  The remote viewing portion was conducted by a CIA remote viewer who was active during the cold war.

The rest of the show was actually pretty good.  It really downplayed a lot of the myths that you hear about the ninja having super natural powers and portrayed them as folks who were simply very good at what they did.  As far as discovery channel shows go this was one of the better ones.


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## theletch1 (Jun 3, 2004)

Sorry for the duplicate post, Paul M.  Was writing mine up at the same time you were.  Well, there's two points of view for ya. :uhyeah:


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## Cruentus (Jun 3, 2004)

Thanks for the replies guys.  :asian: 

Unfortunatily, They are not airing the special again this month, as I checked the schedule. Will they air it again, or do I have to buy the damn thing! :miffer:


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## loki09789 (Jun 3, 2004)

theletch1 said:
			
		

> Sorry for the duplicate post, Paul M. Was writing mine up at the same time you were. Well, there's two points of view for ya. :uhyeah:


No problem, You hit the details that I missed by jumping in late to the program. It is interesting how support, size and budget can help with speed. SEAL teams and elite units in general benefit from a stockpile of technical, personnel and governmental support so their tactical doctrines are sort of 'overtly covert' and they can work for speed at the price of subtlety (using guns and numbers to take out the target).

SKH was employing a tactical doctrine born of technical, personnel and governmental targeting and scrutiny. SKH was working as a single operator with a desire to hide his presense as well as his trail (i.e. his method of eliminating the principal). 

During the exercise, if it had been real (he only had to touch the principal to prove that he got within range) would imagine that SKH's techniques of dispatch would have been something sublte and hard to trace back to him.  Consider too, that as a Ninja operative, he would be more like a CIA agent/spy than a military elite operator, so maintaining his cover would be part of his plan.  SEAL teams wouldn't really have to consider that as much.

Now if SKH had been given the chance to have an equally staffed team of Ninja trained operatives as the SEAL team had, his approach might have been different and much faster.

I don't think it is better/best comparison as much as an example of how so many elements can contribut to how you can operate.


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## Cruentus (Jun 3, 2004)

I think the idea of "remote viewing" could be the topic of another thread. But....where to put it?

I think I'll just put it in the general forum, with link ups here and the Russian MA forum.

 :asian:


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## TKDman (Jun 3, 2004)

I'm sorry but im sure the guy on that TV show was very serious and all, but I couldn't help but laugh a few times here and there.  An old man dressed up like that acting like a ninja was just plain hilarious.  I also thought that the whole "Stealth walking" thing was really funny.  The mind reading part at the end just went over the top though.

No offense to Ninjitsu practicioners.


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## loki09789 (Jun 3, 2004)

TKDman said:
			
		

> I'm sorry but im sure the guy on that TV show was very serious and all, but I couldn't help but laugh a few times here and there. An old man dressed up like that acting like a ninja was just plain hilarious. I also thought that the whole "Stealth walking" thing was really funny. The mind reading part at the end just went over the top though.
> 
> No offense to Ninjitsu practicioners.


Absolutely, how could anyone take offense at such commentary  (I say sarcastically),  

I don't know if it is any more ridiculous than watching a class full of non-Orientals bowing and using Oriental language and following Oriental customs, wearing adopted Oriental costumes, or arguing on the internet over what is or is not authentic, effective or practical when the majority of folks here are not professional martial artists (LEO/Military...) but simply enthusiasts and serious practitioners.....  come on.  How is such a comment productive?

Besides, if someone was paying me to reenact/demonstrate a part of something I love doing anyway, I would be willing to be laughed at all the way to the bank.  What could be better than getting paid to do what you enjoy?


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## TKDman (Jun 3, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> Absolutely, how could anyone take offense at such commentary  (I say sarcastically),
> 
> I don't know if it is any more ridiculous than watching a class full of non-Orientals bowing and using Oriental language and following Oriental customs, wearing adopted Oriental costumes, or arguing on the internet over what is or is not authentic, effective or practical when the majority of folks here are not professional martial artists (LEO/Military...) but simply enthusiasts and serious practitioners.....  come on.  How is such a comment productive?
> 
> Besides, if someone was paying me to reenact/demonstrate a part of something I love doing anyway, I would be willing to be laughed at all the way to the bank.  What could be better than getting paid to do what you enjoy?



Aww come on you know parts of that TV show were funny.  Your just holding it in.


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## loki09789 (Jun 3, 2004)

TKDman said:
			
		

> Aww come on you know parts of that TV show were funny. Your just holding it in.


No I don't.  Neither do the number of special forces, law enforcement and civilians who have found this 'funny stuff' useful and meaningful.  It started out as 'wanna be-ism' to a degree but some of the stuff that I got from my big 80's Ninja Movie inspired exploration into SKH's books actually was really useful while I was in Basic training and in 13 years of service.  Some of the basic martial/mental aspects of the training have been VERY useful in my class management and teaching techniques.

If I were to comment on how funny I thought TKD'ists look (and I took TKD so this COULD be based on direct experience - not outside prejudice) while you all move like lock and block robots, blindly mimicing some archaic standard of form perfection and skill that is really a confusion of a training approach of "over skill standards" where people practice to be fast and flexible enough to kick at head level so that waist level and lower kicks are a piece of cake BUT how that training practice has become the center of actual application instead....

BTW, I don't really think this way - but it is hard not to read that statement (or your comment) without some sense of the disrespectful, negative tone.  Grow up.  If you don't understand it, fine.  If you think it is 'funny' or 'ridiculous' then give a reason.  Otherwise it is not going to accomplish anything positive.


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## theletch1 (Jun 3, 2004)

The stealth walking demo given during the show is no different than the way that I walk while in the woods hunting.  One foot in front of the other, don't set the weight on the front foot all at once, roll from heel to ball, pause, then move the other foot.  Nothing funny about that.  Now, if you're referring to the quick glimpses that were given of the ninja walking with his hands under his feet...never tried it and don't think I want to.  A lot of the ninja mysticism is just that, mysticism and nothing on the show that I was watching did anything to push the myths on the viewer.  SKH was wearing the uniform of the style that he trains in.  I would no more give him grief for that than I would expect grief for wearing my gi while in the dojo doing aikido.

The remote viewing portion of the show was sure to draw some criticism.  The paranormal side of anything, whether MA or not, is a lightning rod for debate.  Me, I'm an open minded skeptic.  I've never (with the exception of the occasional deja vue or the fervent belief that the woman that was killed in my home a couple decades ago is still here) experienced anything that was undeniably paranormal but don't automatically respond that anyone who believes whole heartedly in it that they're nuts.


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## loki09789 (Jun 3, 2004)

I read a long time ago that the hands under the feet walking starts out as a balance exercise but eventually turns into a method of walking quietly through heavy layers of fallen leaves.  Considering stealth and night movement are big for covert operations, changing/reducing the 'human signature' of your outline against the skyline might be another benefit of the hand walking thing.

Slide your hand into the leaves until your hand touches the ground under the layer. Place your foot on the space instead of on the leaves so that you don't crunch a crunch as you go. I read about it in, also, as a technique that LRRPS were taught according to some of the memoir books I read (Eyes of the Eagle, Force Recon Diary 1969/70, ....). It only looks funny when you don't understand the purpose.


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## Cryozombie (Jun 3, 2004)

theletch1 said:
			
		

> The remote viewing portion of the show was sure to draw some criticism.  The paranormal side of anything, whether MA or not, is a lightning rod for debate.



Iv'e read up on some of this remote viewing stuff... years ago I worked with my Ex Wife in a metaphysical bookstore/gift shop and I read a lot of books on Magic and the occult.  I know a bit about how remote viewing is done, although I have not done any myself, and it's unusual and unique... More recently, I recall reading a study online, maybe a few months ago, in fact where a remote veiwer predicted the outcome of a roulette wheel to land on Red or Black, and was accurate to the answer somthing like 98% (?) of the time.

Chance?  Maybe... but I'm willing to believe its possible to develop those skills...


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## TKDman (Jun 3, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> No I don't.  Neither do the number of special forces, law enforcement and civilians who have found this 'funny stuff' useful and meaningful.  It started out as 'wanna be-ism' to a degree but some of the stuff that I got from my big 80's Ninja Movie inspired exploration into SKH's books actually was really useful while I was in Basic training and in 13 years of service.  Some of the basic martial/mental aspects of the training have been VERY useful in my class management and teaching techniques.
> 
> If I were to comment on how funny I thought TKD'ists look (and I took TKD so this COULD be based on direct experience - not outside prejudice) while you all move like lock and block robots, blindly mimicing some archaic standard of form perfection and skill that is really a confusion of a training approach of "over skill standards" where people practice to be fast and flexible enough to kick at head level so that waist level and lower kicks are a piece of cake BUT how that training practice has become the center of actual application instead....
> 
> BTW, I don't really think this way - but it is hard not to read that statement (or your comment) without some sense of the disrespectful, negative tone.  Grow up.  If you don't understand it, fine.  If you think it is 'funny' or 'ridiculous' then give a reason.  Otherwise it is not going to accomplish anything positive.



I don't doubt Ninjitsu's effectiveness or the impact that its had on American Armed forces and espionage techniques, I'm just saying that certain aspects of the show were just plain funny.  I found myself chuckling at bits and parts here and there.  I am a serious martial artist myself, I am not coming from the view of a ignorant american calling the martial arts "voodoo".

Ninjitsu is and always has been fastenating.  I think you just took my comments a little too seriously.


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## Tgace (Jun 3, 2004)

Wish I had cable....wish Paul M would have taped it for me . Guess those SEALS learned not to let camera crews tape the principal from now on.


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## loki09789 (Jun 4, 2004)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Wish I had cable....wish Paul M would have taped it for me . Guess those SEALS learned not to let camera crews tape the principal from now on.


In the wise and wonderful words of Daffy Duck:  "It's mine, mine, mine mine, down, down down, it's mine, all mine....I'm rich, I'm wealthy, I'm comfortably well off....." and lest we forget for the powerful message from that great mystical cult of the FINDING NEMO Sea Gulls:  "Mine?"

Ask me nice, compliment my hair and tell my I'm the only one and I MIGHT try and search for a reshowing and program the VCR....

"But you gotta ask me nice" (Jack Nicholson as Colonel Jessob - A Few Good Men).


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## r.severe (Jun 4, 2004)

In my opinion Hayes shihan did a wonderful job expressing Togakure ryu ninpo. 
The show over all was poorly done other than Hayes shihan parts. Not much research into todays training or facts on the Togakure ryu or the soke, Hatsumi sensei.

If I had one thing to say about this show with any negative statements it would be no one spoke about the soke of Togakure ryuha. This is in fact the ONLY ninjutsu active today.

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## sojobow (Jun 5, 2004)

r.severe said:
			
		

> In my opinion Hayes shihan did a wonderful job expressing Togakure ryu ninpo.



I wouldn't doubt this statement.  The Producer's considered SKH as representing the old/original style from Iga.



> The show over all was poorly done other than Hayes shihan parts. Not much research into todays training or facts on the Togakure ryu or the soke, Hatsumi sensei.



The Producer's made it clear that their research considered the SEAL - Special Forces - Ranger - Central Intel as Ninjitsu as it exist today via evolution.  The SEAL team's exercise was, according to their research, what would likely happen in a Ninjitsu operation today.  Not my opinion but the actual statements made by the narrators during the show.



> If I had one thing to say about this show with any negative statements it would be no one spoke about the soke of Togakure ryuha. This is in fact the ONLY ninjutsu active today....ralph severe, kamiyama



Your opinion is well expressed as well as your devotion to your ryuha. Only problem is that there is a growing ninjitsu populus today that feel that the depictions in the show are more correct in that Ninjitsu has evolved and this same populus honor the past but practice the present and the future.  Personally, I don't believe that Togakure ryuha was EVER the ONLY active Ninjutsu back then and definately today.

Point Last:  SKH had a choice and chose his methods of completing his assignment.  No use of any Ninjutsu/Ninjitsu weapons was his choice.  Someone looking for a martial arts style to start today may now chose to look elsewhere as (if you didn't notice) SKH knocked off the hat but the guard KILLED SKH at the same time, and even more interesting, part of Ninjitsu is to ESCAPE UNDETECTED AFTER THE KILL -----  SKH DIED!!!!!!  All the SEAL team walked away - maybe SkH didn't feel it necessarily part of the exercise to live afterwards.


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## Cryozombie (Jun 5, 2004)

sojobow said:
			
		

> Point Last:  SKH had a choice and chose his methods of completing his assignment.  No use of any Ninjutsu/Ninjitsu weapons was his choice.  Someone looking for a martial arts style to start today may now chose to look elsewhere as (if you didn't notice) SKH knocked off the hat but the guard KILLED SKH at the same time, and even more interesting, part of Ninjitsu is to ESCAPE UNDETECTED AFTER THE KILL -----  SKH DIED!!!!!!  All the SEAL team walked away - maybe SkH didn't feel it necessarily part of the exercise to live afterwards.



Consider this...

At any point while the two guards were separated and he was inches away from either one, he could have killed them, because neither one was "wary" of his presence.  I think it was an intentional decision NOT to display that aspect of it, he wasnt there to "kill" only to demonstrate that it is possible to reach his target.  I think it says a lot that he chose NOT to portray the ninja as a "deadly killer" and if those are the people off-put by the show who choose to seek training elsewhere, so much the better.


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## theletch1 (Jun 5, 2004)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Consider this...
> 
> At any point while the two guards were separated and he was inches away from either one, he could have killed them, because neither one was "wary" of his presence.  I think it was an intentional decision NOT to display that aspect of it, he wasnt there to "kill" only to demonstrate that it is possible to reach his target.  I think it says a lot that he chose NOT to portray the ninja as a "deadly killer" and if those are the people off-put by the show who choose to seek training elsewhere, so much the better.


That's what I took away from it too.  I applaud SKH for downplaying the weapons/lethality of the style.  Far too often nowadays in the news we see reports of someone getting killed and the killer is reported as having studied some martial art or other when they were 4 years old (tic).  Busting in the door with his "to" drawn, throwing shuriken all over the place would have added television flare to the episode but taken away from the message that I think he was trying to get across.  I'm not a student of ninjutsu even though there is a bujinkan dojo 2 miles from my house.  One of the turnoffs for me was all the '80s movie hype about the art.  This documentary down played all that and even debunked a lot of it.


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## sojobow (Jun 5, 2004)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Consider this...
> 
> At any point while the two guards were separated and he was inches away from either one, he could have killed them, because neither one was "wary" of his presence........



Points well taken and I have taken your points into consideration.  However (and you knew there would be a 'however'), Consider this: the guards were armed with, what represented, 9mm semi-automatic, laser-fitted weapons (which automatically places the entire assignment in a modern theater and not in 11th century combat).  Would you consider this weaponry so tepid that you would think only a spray-can of windex is enough (in real life)?  Do you consider the SEALS use of force as excessive?  SKH's 'good intentions' got him killed as I seemed to remember the second guard rebounding from the brush-aside and firing almost point-blank.  I didn't want to get into a debate on monday-morning-quarterbacks opinion on SKH's part in the show and hope we all don't fall into such behavior.  I only wanted to point out that modern depictions in the show lasted minutes while ancient techniques took hours and resulted in the assignee being killed which, to my understanding, is not something to honor in practice.


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## Don Roley (Jun 5, 2004)

sojobow said:
			
		

> Your opinion is well expressed as well as your devotion to your ryuha. Only problem is that there is a growing ninjitsu populus today that feel that the depictions in the show are more correct in that Ninjitsu has evolved and this same populus honor the past but practice the present and the future.  Personally, I don't believe that Togakure ryuha was EVER the ONLY active Ninjutsu back then and definately today.



Ralph Severe did not say the Togakure ryu was the only ninjutsu back then, he said it is the only active ryuha now. And he is correct. There may be people who beleive there are other schools still active, but then again there are people who think the world is flat. The opinions of a few idiots does not matter a lot without proof and there is no proof that the varied ninjutsu "clans" you read about on the internet are any older than disco music. The fact that most of what these "secret ninja" groups write makes people with Japan experience laugh so hard that milk comes out of their nose is another point against them.


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## sojobow (Jun 5, 2004)

theletch1 said:
			
		

> That's what I took away from it too.  I applaud SKH for downplaying the weapons/lethality of the style.....



I wanted to take this opportunity to, hopefully, make clear even my last post above:

In modern warfare, as the SEAL team depicted and the producers considered the closest martial artform to Ninjitsu, there is one of three very important eddicts;  If the enemy arms, kill him.

I can understand your sentimentality, however, we are discussing Ninjitsu and not sports fishing or the UFC.  In Ninjitsu, you are trained not to 'capture' the enemies General, but to kill him.  If your assignment was to 'capture' for the purpose of intel, you would attempt to 'capture' the target.  Everyone between you and him were expendable and killed if they presented arms.  The two guards were both 'Armed.'

Aikido is another martial art originally developed for the purpose of killing the enemy.  Maybe it would be best if those not having this Mind and Spirit take up some 'softer' style which is also honorable in itself. But I'd stay away from the American military and Ninjitsu if lethality presents some type of mental anquish.


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## DuckofDeath (Jun 6, 2004)

I agree with sojobow that a ninja should ESCAPE UNDETECTED AFTER THE KILL.  Has Steven Hayes ever killed anyone and escaped after the kill?  I doubt it.  Frank Dux, on the other hand, has indeed done this, and it is documented in his autobiography The Secret Man.  Dux stalked his prey, a rogue operative known as Fish, all over the world, finally killing him with his bare hands and escaping undetected.  

Why was Hayes selected to participate in the special rather than Dux?  Although Dux isn't in the best of health these days, he certainly could have been consulted and interviewed, and one of his black belts--David Silverman, for example--could have done the "get to the target" exercise.

I'm sure sojobow will agree with me.


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## sojobow (Jun 6, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Ralph Severe did not say the Togakure ryu was the only ninjutsu back then, he said it is the only active ryuha now. And he is correct. The opinions of a few idiots does not matter a lot without proof and there is no proof that the varied ninjutsu "clans" you read about on the internet are any older than disco music. The fact that most of what these "secret ninja" groups write makes people with Japan experience laugh so hard that milk comes out of their nose is another point against them.



I may have been somewhat unclear in my writing to Mr. Severe.  I absolutely did not believe that Mr. Severe said that the Togakure Ryu was the only ninjutsu back then.  I am somewhat purplexed by these milk-snorting individuals complacentcy in believing that ninjutsu (the martial art) originated in Japan.  I would agree that the term or word "Ninjutsu/Ninjitsu" is Japanese in origin but the martial art this/these term(s) reference are definately NOT Japanese in origin and were not the brainchild of any "Japanese."  Maybe these 'people with Japan experience' would do better by discontinuing the comedic snorting and realize, in truth, that others may go back further and look at the seed or the bulb and not the flower in a search for truth..

I also don't believe that there is anyone in Japan that Western civilization has need of proving anything to as there is also no need of anyone in Japan "proving" anything to anyone outside of Japan. (think I'd better speak for myself)

Personally, it has taken me 3 years to understand the sequence of evading a head-on attack by moving to my right, turning to my left and striking with efficiency.  Never did I understand the necessary pre-requisit body movement sequences and naturally, I didn't understand that maximum efficience is dependent upon the attacker using his own body motion to turn to his left.  If he does not attempt to turn left, my body motion will not maximize my own efficiency.  It is HIS motion that provides power to this technique.  It took me 3 years to see and understand this so you and I may be of more use to this forum and one-another if topics revolving around technique, science of the art, philosophy, etc were discussed.


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## Don Roley (Jun 6, 2004)

sojobow said:
			
		

> I would agree that the term or word "Ninjutsu/Ninjitsu" is Japanese in origin but the martial art this/these term(s) reference are definately NOT Japanese in origin and were not the brainchild of any "Japanese."  Maybe these 'people with Japan experience' would do better by discontinuing the comedic snorting and realize, in truth, that others may go back further and look at the seed or the bulb and not the flower in a search for truth..



Yes, ninjutsu is Japanese. There is no proof to the silly stories of Chinese ninja moving to Japan. There are Chinese influences on Japanese civilization, and ninjutsu with it's use of the art of war is no exception. But ninjutsu was born in Japan and is Japanese.



			
				sojobow said:
			
		

> I also don't believe that there is anyone in Japan that Western civilization has need of proving anything to as there is also no need of anyone in Japan "proving" anything to anyone outside of Japan. (think I'd better speak for myself)



That was....interesting to say the least. There is no proof to the claims of other "ninja" arts running around in the west ever existed in Japan. It is silly to assume that the Japanese would have no idea of a ninjutsu art when it is the country is supposably came from. It is also silly to think that someone who writes books, has mini mall dojos, has a movie made about himself, etc, can then site a need for secrecy when asked to back up his claims of learnign ninjutsu from a real teacher. But the guys like Ashida Kim, Frank Dux, etc all seemt o get away with it due to the numerous gullible folks out there.

So quite simply put, there is no other existing ninjutsu ryuha that is legitimate and has proven to exist prior to disco music outside of the Togakure ryu. If anyone has trouble with that statement, then I would let them to provide proof. If they do not care enough to prove their claims, then it would be rather silly for them to try to continue to argue the point.


----------



## Cryozombie (Jun 6, 2004)

sojobow said:
			
		

> Points well taken and I have taken your points into consideration.  However (and you knew there would be a 'however'), Consider this: the guards were armed with, what represented, 9mm semi-automatic, laser-fitted weapons (which automatically places the entire assignment in a modern theater and not in 11th century combat).  Would you consider this weaponry so tepid that you would think only a spray-can of windex is enough (in real life)? .



According to this agrument, You missed my point entirely. Go back and re-read it.


----------



## TimoS (Jun 7, 2004)

DuckofDeath said:
			
		

> I agree with sojobow that a ninja should ESCAPE UNDETECTED AFTER THE KILL.  Has Steven Hayes ever killed anyone and escaped after the kill?  I doubt it.  Frank Dux, on the other hand, has indeed done this, and it is documented in his autobiography The Secret Man.  Dux stalked his prey, a rogue operative known as Fish, all over the world, finally killing him with his bare hands and escaping undetected.



I find it amusing that apparently the only source of this alleged killing is Frank Dux himself. What I find even more hilarious is that there are people willing to believe anything that is written.


----------



## DuckofDeath (Jun 7, 2004)

The Secret Man also describes Dux's Kumite nemesis, Chong Li, as a 6'4" 268 lb. Korean (a lot bigger than Bolo Yeung who played the part in Bloodsport) who was reputed to have killed several men in previous Kumite competitions.  But I'll bet you probably don't believe that either.


----------



## TimoS (Jun 7, 2004)

DuckofDeath said:
			
		

> But I'll bet you probably don't believe that either.



Of course I believe! I believe that it is mentioned in the book, but what I don't believe is the story itself


----------



## Jay Bell (Jun 7, 2004)

Uh...Duck?  Before waving the "Dux Rules" banner...you might want to do some reading on the man.  Anything by M.C. Busman will do just fine..


----------



## MJS (Jun 7, 2004)

DuckofDeath said:
			
		

> I agree with sojobow that a ninja should ESCAPE UNDETECTED AFTER THE KILL.  Has Steven Hayes ever killed anyone and escaped after the kill?  I doubt it.  Frank Dux, on the other hand, has indeed done this, and it is documented in his autobiography The Secret Man.  Dux stalked his prey, a rogue operative known as Fish, all over the world, finally killing him with his bare hands and escaping undetected.



Considering the reputation Dux has, you honestly would take his word over someone like Hayes??? Come on man. 



> Why was Hayes selected to participate in the special rather than Dux?  Although Dux isn't in the best of health these days, he certainly could have been consulted and interviewed, and one of his black belts--David Silverman, for example--could have done the "get to the target" exercise.



Why was Hayes selected rather than Dux? Ummmmmmm...let me see...maybe because Hayes is a more reputable source of Ninjutsu!!!

Mike


----------



## MJS (Jun 7, 2004)

DuckofDeath said:
			
		

> The Secret Man also describes Dux's Kumite nemesis, Chong Li, as a 6'4" 268 lb. Korean (a lot bigger than Bolo Yeung who played the part in Bloodsport) who was reputed to have killed several men in previous Kumite competitions.  But I'll bet you probably don't believe that either.



I agree with Jay Bell here.  Maybe you should do some research on Ninjutsu, Dux, and Hayes before believing everything you hear about Dux.  If you're basing your choice on whos better over a movie, again I stress to do a little research.

Mike


----------



## DuckofDeath (Jun 7, 2004)

Jay Bell said:
			
		

> Uh...Duck?  Before waving the "Dux Rules" banner...you might want to do some reading on the man.  Anything by M.C. Busman will do just fine..



Oh, you mean like that 100+ page thread on Dux started by Busman on E-Budo.com?


----------



## Cruentus (Jun 7, 2004)

DuckofDeath said:
			
		

> Oh, you mean like that 100+ page thread on Dux started by Busman on E-Budo.com?



Duck,

Do you have any evidence outside of Dux to support some of his claims?

Just curious,

PAUL


----------



## DuckofDeath (Jun 8, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> If you're basing your choice on whos better over a movie, again I stress to do a little research.



Do you take me for some kind of naif?  I'm quite aware that Hollywood always takes liberties in films.  The real Kumite, for example, was not held in Hong Kong as shown in Bloodsport, but rather in the Bahamas.


----------



## DuckofDeath (Jun 8, 2004)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> Do you have any evidence outside of Dux to support some of his claims?



I think the real evidence against Dux would be things within Dux's own works that don't support his claims.


----------



## Dale Seago (Jun 8, 2004)

DuckofDeath said:
			
		

> I think the real evidence against Dux would be things within Dux's own works that don't support his claims.



Hardly. Paranoid schizophrenics have the most tightly-constructed internal logic in their worldviews that can be found anywhere.


----------



## Jay Bell (Jun 8, 2004)

> Do you take me for some kind of naif? I'm quite aware that Hollywood always takes liberties in films. The real Kumite, for example, was not held in Hong Kong as shown in Bloodsport, but rather in the Bahamas.



If it thinks like a naif and acts like a naif, chances are...

The real Kumite, for example, never happened.  Dux's bad usage of Japanese got him caught from the get-go.


----------



## heretic888 (Jun 8, 2004)

You mean like his use of the "Japanese" art of _dim mak_??

*laughs*


----------



## Cruentus (Jun 8, 2004)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> You mean like his use of the "Japanese" art of _dim mak_??
> 
> *laughs*



Ha! shows what you know! Next thing you'll try to tell me is that chow mien isn't traditionally Japanese!


----------



## DuckofDeath (Jun 8, 2004)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> You mean like his use of the "Japanese" art of _dim mak_??



Where does Dux ever say that _dim mak_ is Japanese?  Most people know the "death touch" by its Chinese name.  I'm puzzled by all the grief Dux and his Dux Ryu Ninjitsu students take because they practice _dim mak_.  One irreverent poster on the now defunct Frank Dux Forum accused Dux and his students of being practitioners of _dum fuk_!


----------



## Shogun (Jun 8, 2004)

I just have to say this....
I just watched UFC 2 again, and saw Robert Bussey's student (Mr. Morris) get murdered by a Kickboxer. a kickboxer who, even though is tough, practiced TKD and other Korean arts. So as I'm concerned, Bussey made Ninjutsu look like a joke to america, UFC, and TKD stylists.
Thanks, BOB!


----------



## DuckofDeath (Jun 8, 2004)

Dale Seago said:
			
		

> Paranoid schizophrenics have the most tightly-constructed internal logic in their worldviews that can be found anywhere.



An astute observation, and one with which I completely concur.  But if there were a serious error of fact embedded within that tightly-constructed internal logic, something that the paranoid schizophrenic couldn't go back and rationalize, wouldn't that decisively vitiate his claims?

Suppose for example that I claim to have gone on a secret government mission during which I had to scale a rock face that could only be scaled by the best climbers in the world.  No, I don't have any documentation of that because I was alone and it was secret mission; but there's no contradictory evidence either, e.g., no one has been able to place me at another locale when the rock-scaling part of the mission was going on.  But what if an expert rock climber found something in my account that laymen had overlooked, something that only an expert rock climber would recognize as something that wouldn't work or couldn't be done.  Wouldn't that damage my credibility more than my lack of documentation?


----------



## Cruentus (Jun 8, 2004)

DuckofDeath said:
			
		

> An astute observation, and one with which I completely concur.  But if there were a serious error of fact embedded within that tightly-constructed internal logic, something that the paranoid schizophrenic couldn't go back and rationalize, wouldn't that decisively vitiate his claims?
> 
> Suppose for example that I claim to have gone on a secret government mission during which I had to scale a rock face that could only be scaled by the best climbers in the world.  No, I don't have any documentation of that because I was alone and it was secret mission; but there's no contradictory evidence either, e.g., no one has been able to place me at another locale when the rock-scaling part of the mission was going on.  But what if an expert rock climber found something in my account that laymen had overlooked, something that only an expert rock climber would recognize as something that wouldn't work or couldn't be done.  Wouldn't that damage my credibility more than my lack of documentation?



Yes...so you are saying that Dux damages his own credability through his own misinformation. I agree.

Question is...you seem to support him. Why, if this is the case?


----------



## DuckofDeath (Jun 8, 2004)

Scott Morris was robbed!


----------



## Cruentus (Jun 8, 2004)

DuckofDeath said:
			
		

> Scott Morris was robbed!



huh?


----------



## Shogun (Jun 8, 2004)

> Scott Morris was robbed!


 
of his dignity, yes. He is such a "finja".

"American Ninjitsu"...heheh.


----------



## Cruentus (Jun 8, 2004)

Who's Scott Morris?


----------



## Shogun (Jun 8, 2004)

Scott Morris lost in the quarterfinals of UFC 2. I guess he is a "advanced level" black belt under Robert Bussey. 
UFC 2 was a bad day for Ninjutsu. 

of course, at UFC 3, Ninjutsu won the whole darn thing. Steve Jennum was an alternate for Shamrock and ended up winning. thanks to Kimo crapping up Gracie. of course, thanks to Kimo, Harold Howard has a victory over Royce Gracie, who would eat harold howard in a fight.


----------



## Cruentus (Jun 8, 2004)

Shogun said:
			
		

> Scott Morris lost in the quarterfinals of UFC 2. I guess he is a "advanced level" black belt under Robert Bussey.
> UFC 2 was a bad day for Ninjutsu.
> 
> of course, at UFC 3, Ninjutsu won the whole darn thing. Steve Jennum was an alternate for Shamrock and ended up winning. thanks to Kimo crapping up Gracie. of course, thanks to Kimo, Harold Howard has a victory over Royce Gracie, who would eat harold howard in a fight.



Ah. Now I know who he is. Steve Jennum was alright, though...is he Bujinkan?


----------



## Shogun (Jun 8, 2004)

I sure hope so, because he is awesome, and I just got done badmouthing Warrior Int.

Except  I think Jennum still fights. maybe he doesnt. I dont know.


----------



## DuckofDeath (Jun 8, 2004)

DuckofDeath said:
			
		

> Scott Morris was robbed!



:boing2:​


----------



## Bujingodai (Jun 8, 2004)

Scott Morris moved against everything Ninjutsu, what a bonehead.


----------



## MJS (Jun 8, 2004)

DuckofDeath said:
			
		

> Do you take me for some kind of naif?  I'm quite aware that Hollywood always takes liberties in films.  The real Kumite, for example, was not held in Hong Kong as shown in Bloodsport, but rather in the Bahamas.



Well, going on your posts, I really dont know what to think!!

Mike


----------



## r.severe (Jun 9, 2004)

A very simple point of view.. just my opinion...
Morris.. Jennum..
What do these two men have to do with Togakure ryu Ninpo Taijutsu ?
I don't believe they have anything to do with Togakure ryu Ninpo Taijutsu technique, historial, spiritual, ranking, or training.

In what regards do any of you feel they had anything to do with Togakure ryu Ninpo Taijutsu ?

ralph severe, kamiyama


----------



## DuckofDeath (Jun 9, 2004)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> Yes...so you are saying that Dux damages his own credability through his own misinformation. I agree.
> 
> Question is...you seem to support him. Why, if this is the case?



Let me answer in part with an anecdote.  Back when I was posting on the now defunct Frank Dux Forum, it was overrun with anti-Dux posters.  A new poster, wolfen1842, asked for evidence either way on Dux, making it clear that "everyone knows he's a fake" did not constitute evidence against Dux.  Well, the anti-Dux posters got whipped up into a frenzy because--in spite of the fact that "everyone knows Dux is a fake"--no one could decisively prove the charges of fakery.  That's why I believe that examining a work such as _The Secret Man_ may hold the key to proving whether Dux is indeed a fake.


----------



## DuckofDeath (Jun 9, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> Well, going on your posts, I really dont know what to think!!



It's a Ninja technique for keeping opponents off balance--that devious sojobow does it all the time!


----------



## Don Roley (Jun 9, 2004)

DuckofDeath said:
			
		

> Let me answer in part with an anecdote.  Back when I was posting on the now defunct Frank Dux Forum, it was overrun with anti-Dux posters.  A new poster, wolfen1842, asked for evidence either way on Dux, making it clear that "everyone knows he's a fake" did not constitute evidence against Dux.  Well, the anti-Dux posters got whipped up into a frenzy because--in spite of the fact that "everyone knows Dux is a fake"--no one could decisively prove the charges of fakery.  That's why I believe that examining a work such as _The Secret Man_ may hold the key to proving whether Dux is indeed a fake.



Here is the thing, Frank Dux claimed that he was  CIA agent. The CIA denied this. Sources as varied as the LA Times and Soldier of Fortune Magazine looked at his claims and proclaimed them bull feces.

Dux then said that the denials, etc were part of an effort to smear him. As the accuser, it is up to him to prove these claims. He has not. If you go to his web site he has things like letters they say are written by people backing up his claims and accusations. But no one so far has been able to contact these people to determine if they actually exist or if they are merely figments of Dux's imagination and written by him or a friend. This type of evidence that can not be determined to be fake or not would not stand up ina court of law. Dux's accusations fall flat on their face. It is up to Dux to prove that the CIA is denying his claims due to the reasons he gives. It is not anyone else's job to prove his accusations are not true.

Hence, Dux is a fraud. He made claims, they were denied and the accusations he made to try to cover up this denial can not be proven when scrutinized.

Until Dux or his followers provide proof to his accusations that everyone on their own can verify, we are justified in calling Dux a fraud. No secret proof, no trusting some person on the internet. Proof that can stand up and be verified by outside sources. Nothing less.

End of story.


----------



## MJS (Jun 9, 2004)

DuckofDeath said:
			
		

> It's a Ninja technique for keeping opponents off balance--that devious sojobow does it all the time!




Ahh...ok...is that what it was.

Mike


----------



## MJS (Jun 9, 2004)

DuckofDeath said:
			
		

> Let me answer in part with an anecdote.  Back when I was posting on the now defunct Frank Dux Forum, it was overrun with anti-Dux posters.  A new poster, wolfen1842, asked for evidence either way on Dux, making it clear that "everyone knows he's a fake" did not constitute evidence against Dux.  Well, the anti-Dux posters got whipped up into a frenzy because--in spite of the fact that "everyone knows Dux is a fake"--no one could decisively prove the charges of fakery.  That's why I believe that examining a work such as _The Secret Man_ may hold the key to proving whether Dux is indeed a fake.



Well, ya see....anything can be made to make people believe something.  Of course Dux and his followers are going to want and try to make people believe that hes legit. I would also tend to trust people who've been around real Ninjutsu like Hayes, compared to Dux.  Has anyone ever done any research on his past? On his training?  Where he trained? Who he trained with?  I dont want to rely on a movie for that.  People who always hide behind that cloak of mystery tend to make others question what they claim.

Mike


----------



## TimoS (Jun 9, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> Has anyone ever done any research on his past? On his training?  Where he trained? Who he trained with?



sojobow says he's done the research  After all, he's claimed that dux ryu roots go back at least 2500 years, but curiously he's never been able to provide the name of Dux's alleged instructor's instructor or anything beyond Frank Dux


----------



## heretic888 (Jun 9, 2004)

*Where does Dux ever say that dim mak is Japanese? Most people know the "death touch" by its Chinese name. I'm puzzled by all the grief Dux and his Dux Ryu Ninjitsu students take because they practice dim mak.*

Errr.... it could be because Dux claims to have learned a _Japanese_ art, and yet is using decidedly _Chinese_ terminology to describe its teachings --- apparently for no other reason than scores of fanatics are vaguely familiar with what they think "dim mak" is supposed to be. I'm sure if the Korean or Tibetan equivalent of dim mak was culturally "hot" in the West, then Dux would have used that terminology in his story instead.

Kim/Hunter does the same kind of thing, too --- even mixing up Korean and Japanese names for his pseudonym. 

It smells incredibly fishy, and that's putting it _nicely_.

Besides, at least how his "dim mak" is portrayed in the movie, Dux doesn't even seem to understand what the principle is supposed to be in the first place. Its not some "vibrating chi palm" used to break bricks --- its attacking meridian lines.

Bah, smells like horsecrap to me. Laterz.


----------



## Shogun (Jun 9, 2004)

> It smells incredibly fishy


...mmmmmmm, fish.....


----------



## loki09789 (Jun 9, 2004)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> It smells incredibly fishy, and that's putting it _nicely_.
> 
> Besides, at least how his "dim mak" is portrayed in the movie, Dux doesn't even seem to understand what the principle is supposed to be in the first place. Its not some "vibrating chi palm" used to break bricks --- its attacking meridian lines.
> 
> Bah, smells like horsecrap to me. Laterz.


The funny thing is as I read this thread that I have seen the poster in my Chiro's examing rooms all the time for "touch for life" with the meridians, touch points, systems/organs to be affected and times for best benefits.  When I mentioned this to him he clarified that the man considered the 'father of western chiropractics' was a Canadien who had essentially 'westernized' the Eastern medical philosophy so it was easier for patiences to swallow as sound practice.

So, I guess the health side of pressure point manipulation - if totally understood could basically be reversed and you would have "Canada/Cowboy Mak"....

But seriously, there is a real problem with the misrepresentation of Dux's claims and legitimacy.  This guy is teaching stuff that could be dangerous if applied.  Would you recommend a doctor, lawyer (okay, no one really recommends lawyers...) or some other 'self proclaimed' professional with his pedigree or resume?  I wouldn't.


----------



## DuckofDeath (Jun 9, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Here is the thing, Frank Dux claimed that he was  CIA agent. The CIA denied this. Sources as varied as the LA Times and Soldier of Fortune Magazine looked at his claims and proclaimed them bull feces.
> 
> Dux then said that the denials, etc were part of an effort to smear him. As the accuser, it is up to him to prove these claims. He has not. If you go to his web site he has things like letters they say are written by people backing up his claims and accusations. But no one so far has been able to contact these people to determine if they actually exist or if they are merely figments of Dux's imagination and written by him or a friend. This type of evidence that can not be determined to be fake or not would not stand up ina court of law. Dux's accusations fall flat on their face. It is up to Dux to prove that the CIA is denying his claims due to the reasons he gives. It is not anyone else's job to prove his accusations are not true.
> 
> ...



Is this an example of what you're referring to?

http://www.frankdux.com/facts/padgett/intro.htm

Do you think John Padgett II is a figment of Dux's imagination?


----------



## Don Roley (Jun 9, 2004)

DuckofDeath said:
			
		

> Is this an example of what you're referring to?
> 
> http://www.frankdux.com/facts/padgett/intro.htm
> 
> Do you think John Padgett II is a figment of Dux's imagination?



You _know_ that several e-budo members tried to prove one way or another if Padgett existed and really wrote that letter. The web site manager or Dux never has given a way to contact anyone named Padgett to confirm the facts. Sojobow told us to check the military. Some e-budo members tried and found out that the military will not give out personal information like that. Sojobow then tried to say that if we had special contacts in the military we could confirm it.

That is not independent proof that anyone can check for themselves. That would not stand up in a court of law. Dux has failed to back up and prove his accusations against the military and the CIA.


----------



## DuckofDeath (Jun 9, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> You _know_ that several e-budo members tried to prove one way or another if Padgett existed and really wrote that letter. The web site manager or Dux never has given a way to contact anyone named Padgett to confirm the facts. Sojobow told us to check the military. Some e-budo members tried and found out that the military will not give out personal information like that. Sojobow then tried to say that if we had special contacts in the military we could confirm it.
> 
> That is not independent proof that anyone can check for themselves. That would not stand up in a court of law. Dux has failed to back up and prove his accusations against the military and the CIA.



Padgett was in the military?  Where did that little tidbit come from?


----------



## Jay Bell (Jun 10, 2004)

> Some e-budo members tried and found out that the military will not give out personal information like that. Sojobow then tried to say that if we had special contacts in the military we could confirm it.



True.  Unless the information is being obtained for journalist purposes....*nudgenudge*


----------



## DuckofDeath (Jun 10, 2004)

Jay Bell said:
			
		

> True.  Unless the information is being obtained for journalist purposes....*nudgenudge*



But was Padgett even in the military?


----------



## Don Roley (Jun 10, 2004)

DuckofDeath said:
			
		

> Padgett was in the military?  Where did that little tidbit come from?



Woops!
I was thinking of the first guy Sojobow tossed out as "proof" that Dux really was a secret agent, etc and the CIA was out to get him. The guy was supposably an ex-Navy guy who did something like support Dux by putting him ashore when Dux was working in central America. Again, no one was able to find the guy.

And I would be interested in seeing if Padgett can actually be found and evaluated as a witness. Since Dux is accusing the CIA, it is Dux's responsibility to back up those accusations and let others look at the evidence. Can you find him?


----------



## sojobow (Jun 10, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Here is the thing, Frank Dux claimed that he was  CIA agent. The CIA denied this. Sources as varied as the LA Times and Soldier of Fortune Magazine looked at his claims and proclaimed them bull feces.



I'd like to make this simple inquiry.  After which I do not intend to participate in this discussion (Ninjutsu on the Discovery Channel???) as just about every Martial Arts Forum has discussed, in length,  Hanshi Frank Dux in depth with the same results - the thread is usually closed by the Moderator due to opinions approaching infinity.

1) --- Be so kind as to show us where Frank Dux claimed to be a CIA "agent" (i.e., an employee of the CIA that works in the field) -- (in reference to your first sentence);

2) --- Post the CIA denial (not where someone said the CIA denied it). -- (in reference to your second sentence).

Thanx.


----------



## Don Roley (Jun 10, 2004)

sojobow said:
			
		

> 1) --- Be so kind as to show us where Frank Dux claimed to be a CIA "agent" (i.e., an employee of the CIA that works in the field) -- (in reference to your first sentence);
> 
> 2) --- Post the CIA denial (not where someone said the CIA denied it). -- (in reference to your second sentence).
> 
> Thanx.



1) errrrrr, "The Secret Man" by Frank Dux.


artyon: 

And for #2, are you saying there is a conspiracy to say the CIA denied him, when they really did not.

Where is that smiley for rolling on the floor and laughing now that I need it?


----------



## TimoS (Jun 10, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Where is that smiley for rolling on the floor and laughing now that I need it?


Here, use this: :roflmao:


----------



## sojobow (Jun 10, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> 1) errrrrr, "The Secret Man" by Frank Dux.
> artyon:
> And for #2, are you saying there is a conspiracy to say the CIA denied him, when they really did not.
> 
> Where is that smiley for rolling on the floor and laughing now that I need it?



My inquiries are very simple.  But since you seem have problems with them, allow me to try once again.  Note the "show us" for both request #1 and #2.  According to you, you are accussing Hanshi of making your statement in the first sentence.  You are accussing the CIA for making the second statement.  So - very simply - show us where.


----------



## sojobow (Jun 10, 2004)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> *
> Besides, at least how his "dim mak" is portrayed in the movie, Dux doesn't even seem to understand what the principle is supposed to be in the first place. Its not some "vibrating chi palm" used to break bricks --- its attacking meridian lines.  Bah, smells like horsecrap to me. Laterz.*



You may be able to assist all on this one.  You say "his "dim mak" is portrayed in the movie.""  Hanshi didn't write the screenplay, produce or direct the movie.  As far as I am able to tell, Hanshi's responsibility was limited only to fight scene development (choreography) so you may be giving him credit for something that should be attributed to others.  

So when you and others here say that "Dux doesn't even seem to understand what the principle is supposed to be in the first place.", it  seems to be another example of him and or his students having to defend against something unwarranted.

Laterz


----------



## Don Roley (Jun 10, 2004)

sojobow said:
			
		

> My inquiries are very simple.  But since you seem have problems with them, allow me to try once again.



Ah, since you seem to want to pursue one question, then the prior question would seem to have precedence. Your statement above shows you have no valid excuse to avoid it since you pursue your own question. As I wrote in another thread,




> Here is a test, what is your sources for what you wrote about the differences between the "clans" of Iga and the "Families" of Koga, or whatever the heck it was.
> 
> Go ahead. I am waiting and may answer your questions about all the errors you made when you deal with the question already on the table. You are too used to ducking questions when it is convinient and I asked that question a long time ago.


----------



## sojobow (Jun 10, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> *Ah, since you seem to want to pursue one question, then the prior question would seem to have precedence. Your statement above shows you have no valid excuse to avoid it since you pursue your own question. As I wrote in another thread,*



As I am not writing or researching for the purpose of presenting any type of academic discourse, I rarely retain or maintain any type of credit log, source reference logs etc.  However, if it will help you in the least, my statements are rather common knowledge on the Internet, books on Ninjitsu history, TLC (the learning channel), the History Channel, the Discovery Channel.  In fact, I recently (actully, it was on TV yesturday) watched a documentary on the History Channel entitled "Samauri."  The term "Clan" was used (and defined) quite frequently by most of the Professors of Japanese History from UCLA, Uof Georgia (Dr. Friday), and a couple of others of which I didn't write down their names.  There have also been these type of documentaries on these cable channels on the subject of Ninjitsu with the same and or additional Professors presenting their research.  They (these Professors) also expressed these same definitions of Clans and Families.  Basically, Clans are extended families.

I usually give a lot of credit to those individuals with University-level knowledge as their research is usually commendable especially since they make a living dependant upon credible research.  I also have excellent and knowledgeable Sensei.

As for as my 2 simple requests, you made both statements attributable to a quote by Hanshi and the CIA.  Simple post the statements you possess to back up your statements.


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## Don Roley (Jun 10, 2004)

sojobow said:
			
		

> As I am not writing or researching for the purpose of presenting any type of academic discourse, I rarely retain or maintain any type of credit log, source reference logs etc.  However, if it will help you in the least, my statements are rather common knowledge on the Internet, books on Ninjitsu history, TLC (the learning channel), the History Channel, the Discovery Channel.



Bovine feces.

Here is what you wrote,




> Very basic in that Koga's seemed to believe that the art is passed within direct family members. Husband taught the two kids as the wife had already been taught by her father and mother. No need of ranks as there is literally only father and mother = (teacher) and children = student. On assignments, all 4 were one. No need for Dojo's, organizations, institutions, certificates, etc. Training started very shortly after birth and all training was hidden from the public. The only "school" attended by a Koga was at the Yamabushi Temple -- something like going to church on Sundays unless you were adopted by the monks in which case, your 'family' included everyone at the Temples which was not uncommon.
> 
> Iga seemed to train and operate in a more "clan" relationship. Your clan may have included every family in the general neighborhood thus your clan may have included 5 families, 10 families, in-laws, 3rd cousins, 2nd cousins, grandparents etc. Thus, these 20 to 50 individuals would require organization, schools etc. I'd rather those from the Iga side enlighten you on their system's development.



This type of stuff is not on TLC or any _respectable_ source that I can think of, or that you seem able to site. And you said it with a lot certainty. If it was common knowledge, you should be able to find a source fairly easily.

Try again.


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## sojobow (Jun 10, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Bovine feces.
> 
> This type of stuff is not on TLC or any _respectable_ source that I can think of, or that you seem able to site. And you said it with a lot certainty. If it was common knowledge, you should be able to find a source fairly easily.
> 
> Try again.



So, you go over to another thread and bring that conversation here.  It is evident what your motives are.  Stick to the point.  You accused Frank Dux of stating that he worked for the CIA (see my reply above).  You also said that the CIA debuked the statement by Frank Dux.  I say, *show us the Frank Dux statement (direct quote and source please).  Then, show us the link to the CIA's debuke of the Frank Dux alledged statement.*  Since it is you making the accusations, you should have no problem showing us that you have told the truth to begin with (or is your inability to display truth an example of your own "Bovine feces?"

Second:  I guess you completely, due to selective ignorance, refused to recognize this simple sentence in my reply to Tshadowchaser which you decided to bring over to this thread.  I'll quote if for you:  *...... I'd rather those from the Iga side enlighten you on their system's development.....*.

You haven't put forth any effort whatsoever in responding to the gentleman's extremely serious question.  When someone "can't do," any excuse will do.  I know what the both of you are trying to bait me into assisting you with.  I would have helped.  All both of you need have done was simply ask me.  Let's try adding something of worth to this Forum.

I await the links to your proof of truth.


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## Don Roley (Jun 10, 2004)

sojobow said:
			
		

> I say, *show us the Frank Dux statement (direct quote and source please).  Then, show us the link to the CIA's debuke of the Frank Dux alledged statement.*



"As I am not writing or researching for the purpose of presenting any type of academic discourse, I rarely retain or maintain any type of credit log, source reference logs etc. However, if it will help you in the least, my statements are rather common knowledge on the Internet, books on Ninjitsu history, TLC (the learning channel), the History Channel, the Discovery Channel."


artyon:


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## DuckofDeath (Jun 10, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Woops!
> I was thinking of the first guy Sojobow tossed out as "proof" that Dux really was a secret agent, etc and the CIA was out to get him. The guy was supposably an ex-Navy guy who did something like support Dux by putting him ashore when Dux was working in central America. Again, no one was able to find the guy.
> 
> And I would be interested in seeing if Padgett can actually be found and evaluated as a witness. Since Dux is accusing the CIA, it is Dux's responsibility to back up those accusations and let others look at the evidence. Can you find him?



The one you were probably thinking of is Lt. Cmdr. Alexander Martin, USN (ret.):

http://www.frankdux.com/facts/martin/intro.htm

He has this extreme kook site:

http://www.almartinraw.com

Padgett is the one whose mysterious disappearance was mentioned on the Frank Dux Forum.  He was said to have been a friend and student of Dux and was also said to have some kind of mental problems, an allegation not denied by a poster named twigg who seemed to be a personal friend of Padgett and who took offense at Padgett's mental condition being brought up.  I did a search on John Padgett II and came up with an e-mail address of a Washington state Trekkie, but the e-mail address was not current.  I'll try to do a little more digging.

Question for discussion:  If a mentally disturbed person is coaxed into signing off on a bogus declaration that he accompanied a famous exponent of Ninjitsu to the Ukraine to shoot a documentary, and the trip never happened and the documentary was never shot, and the mentally disturbed person was later believed to be a "security risk" to the contrived story, would the famous exponent of Ninjitsu have reason to want to make the security risk "disappear"?


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## DuckofDeath (Jun 10, 2004)

sojobow said:
			
		

> I'd like to make this simple inquiry.  After which I do not intend to participate in this discussion (Ninjutsu on the Discovery Channel???) as just about every Martial Arts Forum has discussed, in length,  Hanshi Frank Dux in depth with the same results - the thread is usually closed by the Moderator due to opinions approaching infinity.
> 
> 1) --- Be so kind as to show us where Frank Dux claimed to be a CIA "agent" (i.e., an employee of the CIA that works in the field) -- (in reference to your first sentence);
> 
> ...



"He was the CIA's finest covert operative..." (Very first words on dust jacket of _The Secret Man_.)

http://www.frankdux.com/frankdux/frankdux.htm 

"As fiction is never in need of denial and certainly not by an institution used to being the target of criticism, like the CIA, then why does the CIA feel compelled to issue any kind of official denial of Frank Dux book, The Secret Man, Harper Collins?"  (From the FrankDux.com site.  Why does Frank Dux himself state that the CIA felt compelled to issue an official denial of _The Secret Man_ if it issued no such denial?  Are you calling Hanshi a LIAR, sojobow?)

http://www.frankdux.com/frankdux/thefacts/miscpoints.htm


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## DuckofDeath (Jun 10, 2004)

sojobow said:
			
		

> You may be able to assist all on this one.  You say "his "dim mak" is portrayed in the movie.""  Hanshi didn't write the screenplay, produce or direct the movie.  As far as I am able to tell, Hanshi's responsibility was limited only to fight scene development (choreography) so you may be giving him credit for something that should be attributed to others.
> 
> So when you and others here say that "Dux doesn't even seem to understand what the principle is supposed to be in the first place.", it  seems to be another example of him and or his students having to defend against something unwarranted.
> 
> Laterz



Dux himself describes his ability to break the bottom brick in the stack as being _dim mak_ on page 65 of _The Secret Man_.  There's also a picture of him doing this in the photo illustrations (although with not as many bricks as in the movie).


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## Tgace (Jun 10, 2004)

Man this threads hit bottom......"eject goose!!! eject!! eject!! eject!!"


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## DuckofDeath (Jun 10, 2004)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Man this threads hit bottom......"eject goose!!! eject!! eject!! eject!!"



If it's hit bottom, then there's no way to go but up, right?  _Excelsior!_


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## Cryozombie (Jun 10, 2004)

Why does every other thread in this forum degrade into a "These guys are frauds"  thread?

C'mon... we are discussing the Discovery channel Special here guys, not the Wubulous World of Dr Dux...


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## Cruentus (Jun 11, 2004)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Why does every other thread in this forum degrade into a "These guys are frauds"  thread?
> .



That would be because morons like to come on and say "Hayes is S**t, and if it was Dux who was there, he'd a kumateyed all der a$$es," or something to that effect.

and, btw, I can break the bottom brick too. Musta been my Dim Mak chi power, instead of simple physics.


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## Don Roley (Jun 11, 2004)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Why does every other thread in this forum degrade into a "These guys are frauds"  thread?



In this case because Ralph Severe complained about there not being enough mention of Hatsumi since he was the only living succesor of a ninjutsu tradition, Sojobow took issue and hell was let loose.


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## DuckofDeath (Jun 11, 2004)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> and, btw, I can break the bottom brick too. Musta been my Dim Mak chi power, instead of simple physics.



Are you sure it wasn't that dime between the last brick and the one on top of it?


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## sojobow (Jun 11, 2004)

DuckofDeath said:
			
		

> Dux himself describes his ability to break the bottom brick in the stack as being _dim mak_ on page 65 of _The Secret Man_.  There's also a picture of him doing this in the photo illustrations (although with not as many bricks as in the movie).



Every now and then, let the person a question is asked of, answer the question himself or herself.  In this case, the question was directed to Mr. Roley.  It's hard, but try anyway.

Also, the Don Roley Rules of Ingagement state that any answer to a subject regarding Hanshi is not acceptable as truth if the source of the answer is FrankDux.com or Frank Dux himself as nothing "he" says considered a correct answer.  Thus, your interjections do not qualify or are relavent to the subject.

But I do hope everyone goes out and buys the book for their own enlightenment.


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## Don Roley (Jun 11, 2004)

sojobow said:
			
		

> Also, the Don Roley Rules of Ingagement state that any answer to a subject regarding Hanshi is not acceptable as truth if the source of the answer is FrankDux.com or Frank Dux himself as nothing "he" says considered a correct answer.



Ah, your little rewriting of the facts. One of your more endearing traits.

If Fank Dux, FrankDux.com, etc says something _but there is no other proof_ I will not accept it as _independently verifiable proof._ 

And it is that independent type of proof that is required when assesing claims, and which Frank Dux with his claims of being taught the Koga yamabushi ryu, etc, can not provide.


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## heretic888 (Jun 11, 2004)

I fail to see how reading a work of blatant self-aggrandizement can result in "enlightenment" ---- unless, of course, you mean for hints on how _not_ to live your life.


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## sojobow (Jun 11, 2004)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Man this threads hit bottom......"eject goose!!! eject!! eject!! eject!!"



I too, have a similar recognition.  Thus, there is no need of anyone replying to any post I have made regarding the Frank Dux Controversy.  Mr. Roley need not attempt an answer to the two questions I have asked more than once.  I will be interested in others thoughts on the Discovery Channel subject, however, I will no longer participate in any further discussions off-subject and definately no discussions regarding Hanshi's Controversy.

thanx


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## DuckofDeath (Jun 12, 2004)

sojobow said:
			
		

> But I do hope everyone goes out and buys the book for their own enlightenment.



So am I correct in assuming that you yourself have purchased _The Secret Man_ for your own enlightenment?  I remember chiding you on the Frank Dux Forum for being unfamiliar with that marvelous tome.  Desirous of a double portion of enlightenment, I purchased a second copy as a backup and made a most interesting discovery.  My first copy was a "library discard" that still had the little stamped card in the pocket which showed the book was first checked out shortly after publication.  The book had two forewords, the first by retired SEAL Team Five Commander Larry W. Simmons, the second by Maj. Gen. Anatoly Pavlovich Kornienko; there was also a photo of Dux and Simmons together in the illustrations section.  The second copy lacked both the foreword by Simmons and the picture of Simmons and Dux together.  I wonder why the publisher stopped the presses and removed the Simmons material?


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## Cryozombie (Jun 13, 2004)

So...

To bring this back on topic, and to tie it in with another thread here...

Did anyone notice the "Ninja-to" on the wall in the museum in Iga when they were touring it?

Is that "fictionalized" for the masses?


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## Don Roley (Jun 14, 2004)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> So...
> 
> To bring this back on topic, and to tie it in with another thread here...
> 
> ...



Yep. I remember it from ten years or so ago when I went there. The version they had on display with all the trappings was the same Taiwan model I used to own. I did not see with my own two eyes anything historical that matched it. I have seen photos of the museum where it looks like there may be one, but I do not know if that is just a trick of the angle it was taken in. Some people said that Hatsumi was using a straight version of the ninja to in one of his books, but that turns out to be just a case of the angle he held it in relation to the camera.


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## Former Dux Ryu Student (Nov 17, 2017)

DuckofDeath said:


> Is this an example of what you're referring to?
> 
> http://www.frankdux.com/facts/padgett/intro.htm
> 
> Do you think John Padgett II is a figment of Dux's imagination?


John Padgett II was a real person. He passed away December of 2002. He was a close friend of mine and I trained with him at the Dux Ryu schools in WA 
State. One which used to be on Military Road that is now a chocolate factory with an instructor named Zura Goodpaster, and a couple others that had been in Burien WA with Master Michael Cairns. The last of which was called The Underground Dojo and was located underneath Pauls Burger Joint. Anyway, John did exist and was in the Navy. However I can't prove or disprove whether or not he went to Russia. I was in the Marines during that time and did not have any contact with him while I was on active duty. When I did return to training at the dojo, John did tell me directly that he had gone to Russia with Frank Dux and had trained with some military people there. But it doesn't mean Frank Dux was "the trainer of the special forces". He could have just held a seminar for them or taken a tour of the base and gotten pictures taken. I'd say the real proof would be to get a copy of Frank Dux's Passport and look for the stamps to see if he was really there. But you cant really do much more than take Frank's word for it beyond that.

John was a good man and was like older brother to me. I met him when I was twelve when I started training at the Military Road school. He had a love for Ferrets and we would volunteer at a Ferret shelter on Vashon Island in WA on Sunday's, cleaning cages and helping the owner, Ed, with the animals. He loved his only son Tre, more than life itself and was the best father that he could be for the time he was around.

Please set aside any Frank Dux shenanigans and remember that John was a real person and loved by his friends and family who miss him dearly.


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