# How Long Should It Take....



## MJS (Sep 16, 2008)

before someone should be capable of using the art to defend themselves?  Depending on who you talk to, the answers will vary.  IMHO, while I understand that training is a 'lifetime' experience, its important to always practice and refine your material, etc., I don't think that it should take someone 10,15, or 20yrs, before they can be effective.

This question is open to all of the Kenpo styles that we have here.  Looking forward to your replies!:ultracool


----------



## kamishinkan (Sep 16, 2008)

Interesting question, I am not sure it can be reasonably answered. It would seem that it would depend on the attack/attacker. An untrained attacker that is attacking with an easily defendable attack may be able to be stopped by someone who has only trained a few months. The more determined and aggresive (and skilled) the attack, the more skill required, hence longer training. I guess the idea is that you hope to train long enough that a would be assailant would be out skilled against you, how much is that ? Good question, depends on the assailant.
 Sorry for the answer that doesnt answer anything.


----------



## MJS (Sep 16, 2008)

kamishinkan said:


> Interesting question, I am not sure it can be reasonably answered. It would seem that it would depend on the attack/attacker. An untrained attacker that is attacking with an easily defendable attack may be able to be stopped by someone who has only trained a few months. The more determined and aggresive (and skilled) the attack, the more skill required, hence longer training. I guess the idea is that you hope to train long enough that a would be assailant would be out skilled against you, how much is that ? Good question, depends on the assailant.
> Sorry for the answer that doesnt answer anything.


 
Thanks for the reply.   You do bring up an interesting point, regarding the skill level of our attacker.  Then again, its possible that someone who's been training 10 yrs. could meet someone more skilled, so it seems like its a revolving door so to speak. Our training should never end and we should always strive to better ourselves.  

I think that someone, within a month or 2 of solid training, should be capable to fending off some basic attacks.  Just seems to me, reading some posts in other areas, that some think that you need to spend years before you'll be anywhere near effective.


----------



## kamishinkan (Sep 16, 2008)

I agree, there seems to be this overall assumption that the attacker would be very skilled. Even in our training, modern minds seem to think that a training method may be "unrealistic" because of the possibility of counters, etc. The assumption is the incredible skill of an offender. From what I understand, usually an attacker is relatively unskilled (compared to most defensive style MA). I agree a few months of training should elevate the skill af a person enough to handle some basic attacks that they probably would not have been able to handle before the training. 
 And yes it is a revolving door so to speak, because the possibility does exist for a more skilled person to become an offender (although I would assume statistically it is pretty remote). There is always someone better, so training will end for me when I am laid down.


----------



## Hyper_Shadow (Sep 16, 2008)

I'd say it depends on the amount of 'street' experience that the MA practitoner has had to start with. You could have someone with a lot of previous experience and so even if they have little training they can better appply it to a situation they are familiar with.


----------



## ackks10 (Sep 16, 2008)

i think that's the question for the ages Mike, but let me share this little story,
my daughter (who is 13 now) was 7years old and she was at the dojo with me one night while i was teaching, she was in the pee-wee class,anyway when i was working with the adult class she was watching.
i was teaching how and when to use the  "hand sword" and reverse "hand sword",well a couple of days later we were in the front yard (my wife and i)
talking with some neighbors,my daughter (Brianna) came out and was with us
now my sons friend came over he was 18,and was waiting for my son, so we were talking and josh(sons friend) kept messing with Brianna,i kept telling him to stop(he was only playing) well he did not, he then garbed her and than the next thing we knew josh was on the ground yelling she hit me in the (u know where) what she did was use a  reverse "hand sword" that she had sceen in class a couple of night before(it worked to) so as for the question 
how long should it take??


----------



## girlbug2 (Sep 16, 2008)

I think it depends on the attack, the attacker, and the defender.

There, that covers everything.

But seriously, I could probably use the rule of averages to calculate that if it is true that the average attacker is likely to be unskilled (a "punk" as my instructor would say), who is in fact shocked that their victim is even daring to fight back, then perhaps a few lessons in basic defenses against common attacks (right hand punch, right leg kick, shove, hair grab) would be all it takes to equip the beginner with good self defense skills. Maybe a month, or less?

OTOH, maintaining even that small knowledge base does require practice. ONe can forget this kind of thing quickly. Use it or lose it.


----------



## arnisador (Sep 16, 2008)

girlbug2 said:


> Maybe a month, or less?



It takes longer than that to instill the _confidence _and _aggressiveness _one needs to fight (unless your class is offered USMC boot camp style). You may need only one punch, but you also need confidence that it'll work and the toughness to take a punch and keep on keepin' on. That takes time for the average person walking into a studio. 

If you're training prisoners and ex-cons then--in all seriousness--you can show them tricks and they'll quickly adapt them to their repertoire, because they have the above. The will to win (or at least to survive) is what wins fights, and it takes a _lot _of skill in technique to even that out.


----------



## Danjo (Sep 16, 2008)

The training should have an effect pretty quickly as it will increase one's balance, coordination and reflexes. Learning how to punch or kick ought to help fairly quickly too (as in the reverse handsword example above). But asside from that, I think that it's going to depend on how it's trained. If there is a lot of fight training from the beginning, then it should help pretty quickly. 

That's why arts like Krav Maga are popular. However, if it's more traditional and a lot of empasis is put on kata and kihon, ala Goju Ryu etc., then it will take considerably longer to achieve the same fighting proficiency. 

The advantage to the traditional arts versus the more quickly assimilated arts, however, is the depth. It may take longer to achieve proficiency, but the final result is more impressive IMO. If taught properly, most practitioners of traditional arts should be able to "use the art" to defend themselves by green belt.


----------



## bowser666 (Sep 16, 2008)

I honestly don't think the training has much to do with it in the begining stages anyways. It is more a persons natural instinctive reaction. Which varies from person to person. Yes training may help unlock that door faster or not.  It all depends on the student. I have seen advanced students that are great for technique and kata, but their sparring was weak, or their response to SD situations because of the lack of that "edge" in their instinct. It is as unique a quality as their can be. Everyone is different.


----------



## tshadowchaser (Sep 16, 2008)

If the attack is one that has been practiced against in class every night then perhaps the student can defend themselves in a relatively short time.  However if the class dose ont technique one night then 5 the next then a few more the next and the first one is not done again for a month then the training is ineffective because the student has not learned anything. The student has only repeated moves and has not learned to use what he is being shown.  Sparring in class helps but learning to do a technique against a single punch, and learning to defend against that first punch with a strong counter is necessary and this is accomplished by repetitive training


----------



## Kwanjang (Sep 16, 2008)

It has been said several times--Its not the dog in the fight...its the fight in the dog. This is why I personally never debate "styles" In my opinion they are all good. To me, its funny when someone says, "I got into a fight and  but I did not use my MA training. A couple of the key factors in protecting yourself is, *muscle memory + conviction.* as far as How long should it take, I think depends on the person-hard to say.

About a year ago an unfortunate situation came my way and I had to make the decission to defend myself, after five warnings to "Back out of my personal space" and reading his body language. My response was, lets say extremely harsh. I punched him in the neck. He never saw it comming!
 His- was a classic response-he reached up and grabbed his throat,(I think it put him in shock) allowing me a 3-5 second  open invitation to do "whatever" I then front kicked him in the solar plexus. The whole time keeping in mind if I over do this, I could get in trouble-even though there were witnesses that saw the whole thing go down. When it was all said and done. The court punished him for; assault, criminal tresspass, and destruction of private property. After the throat punch I could have dropped an atomic bomb on him. Some might say that a throat punch was a little over the top. I say I did what I think was right at the time. It sent a clear signal--Don't mess with me. Once again, I beleive its not the style or the art, or, The dog in the fight... its the fight in the dog. I sincerely hope I NEVER have to do that again.


----------



## Danjo (Sep 16, 2008)

tshadowchaser said:


> If the attack is one that has been practiced against in class every night then perhaps the student can defend themselves in a relatively short time. However if the class dose ont technique one night then 5 the next then a few more the next and the first one is not done again for a month then the training is ineffective because the student has not learned anything. The student has only repeated moves and has not learned to use what he is being shown. Sparring in class helps but learning to do a technique against a single punch, and learning to defend against that first punch with a strong counter is necessary and this is accomplished by repetitive training


 
Agreed. That's why systems like Krav Maga are popular since they keep it simple and repetitive. If someone just wanted to learn to defend themself in as short a time as possible, I'd send them to a self defense class, not a traditional martial art.


----------



## arnisador (Sep 16, 2008)

Danjo said:


> Agreed. That's why systems like Krav Maga are popular since they keep it simple and repetitive. If someone just wanted to learn to defend themself in as short a time as possible, I'd send them to a self defense class, not a traditional martial art.



I often suggest a few months of boxing--it'll toughen them up physically and mentally, and they'll learn that they _can _take a hit. That's a big one to accept for many people!


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 16, 2008)

In the end it will always come down to the individual.  However after somewhere between *three to six months* the average person should be seeing some dramatic improvement in their skill sets.  Those that are willing to stay at it longer will see more improvement provided they continue to put forth *very serious effort*! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Of course the above in the end always comes back to the individual.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Sep 16, 2008)

Danjo said:


> The training should have an effect pretty quickly as it will increase one's balance, coordination and reflexes. Learning how to punch or kick ought to help fairly quickly too (as in the reverse handsword example above). But asside from that, I think that it's going to depend on how it's trained. If there is a lot of fight training from the beginning, then it should help pretty quickly.
> 
> That's why arts like Krav Maga are popular. However, if it's more traditional and a lot of empasis is put on kata and kihon, ala Goju Ryu etc., then it will take considerably longer to achieve the same fighting proficiency.
> 
> The advantage to the traditional arts versus the more quickly assimilated arts, however, is the depth. It may take longer to achieve proficiency, but the final result is more impressive IMO. If taught properly, most practitioners of traditional arts should be able to "use the art" to defend themselves by green belt.


You bring up an interesting point. A  forward bow done correctly will place your head further back than a diving punch, so naturaly a simple thing like maintaining good posture is one of the most defensive things you can teach; so, right of the get go your students should be able to handle a given percentage of encounters on the street. The more they train and learn, the higher the percentage.
Sean


----------



## Touch Of Death (Sep 16, 2008)

I think green belt is way to long a wait, by the way.
Sean


----------



## arnisador (Sep 16, 2008)

At the rate most people train? Green belt isn't at all unreasonable if you train 2x/week for an hour at a time and aren't fundamentally athletic.


----------



## Danjo (Sep 16, 2008)

Touch Of Death said:


> I think green belt is way to long a wait, by the way.
> Sean


 
Green belt is traditionally the first non-white belt rank. Even in systems where various colors are in use, they are often merely considered ways of distinguishing white belt ranks.

Obviously there are people who can fight without ever having been trained, but we are talking an average here.

In Shotokan, you could conceivably get to green belt in 6-9 months give or take.


----------



## John Bishop (Sep 17, 2008)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> In the end it will always come down to the individual.  However after somewhere between *three to six months* the average person should be seeing some dramatic improvement in their skill sets.  Those that are willing to stay at it longer will see more improvement provided they continue to put forth *very serious effort*!
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I tend to agree with this.  I think a lot of the instructors here may agree that you usually encounter 4 types of beginning students.  1. Those of average ability.  2. Those that appear to be naturals, and progress pretty fast.  3. Those that are just plain scary. And 4. Those that may never get it. 

I'm still amazed at the number of grown men or older teens who tell me that "they've never been in a fight in their lives".   
Even with attackers, there are so many variables involved here.  Is the attacker someone who spends his day getting loaded and tearing down his body?  Is he someone that only gets belligerent and fights when he's drunk?  Is he someone who is physically large, and only chooses victims that are smaller then him?  Has he had some hard contact training like boxing, MA, even football?  

I think if you take a attacker and martial artists with the same physical skill, and mental toughness, the martial artist should be the superior fighter in 3-6 months of training.


----------

