# How do we desensitize our students to contact?



## Thesemindz (Feb 25, 2009)

Ok, we've discussed this in the past in parts, but how do we take adults who aren't used to any contact at all in their lives, and get them used to hugging and punching and rolling around with other adults?

One of the biggest challenges many students face, especially at the beginner level, is making physical contact with another adult, especially in a violent context. Many adults go through their daily lives without touching other people. In fact, many go out of their way to avoid any kind of physical contact what so ever, except possibly with their loved ones, and beginning students are often uncomfortable touching or being touched by another adult. I think the process of desensitization should begin in a students very first lesson.

Several steps are helpful in desensitizing students to contact. First and foremost is professionalism. The instructor must make sure that everyone understands that all contact is done purely for the purpose of training. The best way to convey this message is for the instructor to simply be professional in his dealings with the students. Even when in compromising positions which could be misconstrued, even when working with children, if the instructor is focused and professional and conveying honest useful information, everyone focuses on that and pays attention. 

Secondly using focus shields with students is a good way to help to get them used to feeling incoming force without frightening them unduly. Using the focus shield allows the student to feel differing degrees of force through an intermediary. This allows the student to adjust to force, and practice resisting the force, and see another student throwing blows at them, without actually hitting them, yet.

Thirdly techniques should be practiced on the body with increasing degrees of force. The students are taught to practice their techniques at touch and light contact, and contact is increased over time as the students move into more advanced classes. Beginner students are repeatedly reminded to use control and touch their targets. Intermediate students are taught to use heavier contact while still using control. This process continues in more advanced classes. At all levels students are practicing on shields, heavy bags, and other punching targets with heavier contact so that they can continue to develop power with their techniques.

Additionally doing regular drills in classes where students grab or push each other to work defenses against those attacks, both in the context of techniques and in unscripted motion based drills helps to familiarize the student to spontaneous contact. This helps to break down the barrier that the students have put up against contact. This process continues into all categories of attack with greater contact at more advanced levels.

These are just some of the basic steps involved. There are many other drills and training techniques which can be used, such as sparring and sensitivity drills, but the real key is to begin the process early. If the instructor waits until the brown or black belt level to hit someone, several problems arise. 


The student has already adjusted to and accepted the degree of contact inherent in his training. To drastically increase that, especially after so much time, without ramping it up slowly, would certainly intimidate the student. 
Students who were naturally predisposed to heavier contact, or looking specifically for it in their self defense training have probably already left the school, leaving no one who can role model toughness and fortitude for the weaker students to emulate. 
It seems hard to except that a student could learn effective self defense and acquire street applicable skills without engaging in some level of contact with a resisting opponent. 
Especially at the beginning levels, it is important to pair up students with similar attributes, physically, mentally, emotionally, even experientially. Not every time, but more often than not. Certainly it is important to pair up students of different sizes and strengths so that they can learn to effectively execute technique against a variety of bigger, stronger, or faster attackers, but that can be emphasized to a greater degree later in their training. If too much stress is put on a beginning student, that student will leave, and then they cant be helped at all.

The most important aspect is to care about the students and be conscious of their unique challenges, while also pushing them to reach outside their comfort zone. That is what a good instructor does. It is important to listen to the students and be concerned with helping them grow as martial artists. The instructor knows what they need to achieve, but he must listen to his students to know how best to lead them to that goal. All students learn and process information differently and being sensitive to each student's needs helps to motivate them properly.

What's funny to me, is that my wife is a cosmetologist, and she experiences the same thing in her line of work. Think about it. How often does a pretty young woman spend five to ten minutes massaging oils and shampoos into your skin? She gets weird reactions from men and women both, because they just aren't accustomed to that degree of intimate contact.

So how do you do it? What drills do you use? What's your philosophy? Your approach?


-Rob


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## Blindside (Feb 25, 2009)

We do it mostly through a sparring context.  We start light, essentially point fighting with beginners and then ramp it up as they get used to it.  Usually by purple (the third belt, about a year into it) most people are used to at least medium contact.  By green and brown they can go pretty hard contact.  My instructors philosophy was that no one will hit you harder than he will.  

You know you've got a convert when someone takes a good shot and comes up grinning. 

Lamont


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## Skpotamus (Feb 26, 2009)

We start our students off with focus mitt drills, which we run give and take style.  EX:  attacker throws a jab cross combo, defender parries the jab, slips the cross and fires back a combo to the attacker.  During the course of this, we have them padded up, headgear, mouthpieces, usually we have them use gloves instead of focus mitts.  This gets them used to contact on both ends while providing padding when someone mis-times, etc.  

Probably the best drill we've found though is a basic blocking drill. Put the blocker with their back to a wall so they cannot move away from the incoming strikes.  Have the attacker throw two uppercuts to the body, and two hooks to the head (we typically start off with hooks to the shoulder though).  The defender has to block, which has an element of absorbtion in it and gets them used to contact.  Start off light, and build up the contact as they get used to it.  Have instructors watching the blocker like a hawk, if they start to look too uncomfortable, have the attacker back off on the power.  

Thirdly, we don't let our students spar until their yellow belt test (3-4 months experience).  We've found that it gives them time to get comfortable with their techniques,and get some confidence in them, as well as getting them used to some contact through pad drills.


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## Cirdan (Feb 26, 2009)

Actually physical contact has never been a problem at any of the places I train, people seem to want to grapple as much as possible. I even remember my Katori Shinto Ryu instructor commenting that in Kenjutsu students don`t have the chanse to show how much they "love" each other like JJ and Karate guys and that this makes the training different.

As for getting ppl used to someone throwing punches at them, use warmup routines with light to no contact, pad work and light contact sparring with light protective gear. And watch the yellow belts.. at that level they are starting to get the hang of a good strike but lack control.


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## KempoGuy06 (Feb 26, 2009)

Blindside said:


> We do it mostly through a sparring context.  We start light, essentially point fighting with beginners and then ramp it up as they get used to it.  Usually by purple (the third belt, about a year into it) most people are used to at least medium contact.  By green and brown they can go pretty hard contact.  My instructors philosophy was that no one will hit you harder than he will.
> 
> You know you've got a convert when someone takes a good shot and comes up grinning.
> 
> Lamont



For the most part thats how it is at our school as well.

White belts generally dont make contact with each other out of fear or what not. As a blue belt (and a big one) I generally will pair up with lower ranks who are smaller in size and encourage them to hit me. I always tell them that Im a sparring fanatic  and they are not going to hit me as hard as ive been hit in sparring if they concentrate on control. This usually helps them out. 

As for them taking the punch, I generally tell them, if we are doing SD drills for example, that if they dont move fast enough i will hit them (only for white and yellow belts, after that i try to hit them all the time since they are two belts in at orange), this lets them know that there is a possibility that they are going to get hit. "Knowing is half the battle" It gives them warning and lets them prepare for and helps them to concentrate more on the SD tech they are working on.

Like Blindside though, i agree that sparring is the best tool. In sparring you know you are going to get hit and that hitting other people is key as well.

B


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## terryl965 (Feb 26, 2009)

We tend to help alot build confidence though training and allowing them to get going at there pace, the last thing anybody should do is push a student into physical sparring until they are ready.


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## searcher (Feb 26, 2009)

My students have their contact rtaining start with blocking drills.   Once they start, they get to having a little bit of pain and bruising.   As time goes on, the contact in the drills get heavier and they start to get used to it and they don't mind very much.   During this time we are also having them spar with upper rank students in a lighter contact style of sparring.   I let all students know that what they give to the upper students, they will get in return and that the upper ranks are not going to hurt them.    The upper students work on a chest pretector(I start them with one, but they lose it shortly) and slowly build the level of power.   They also start with "touching" the head, which then gets heavier over the couse of a few weeks.   

One thing that helps with the younger guys is playing on their ego.   I place them in the ring with a smaller female of fairly high rank.   I let the female go pretty hard on them.    They never seem to back down, no matter how hard they get hit.

Be patient with the students, they will come around or they will leave.    Help the ones that can be helped and don't worry about the ones that leave.    Some people are just not cut out for MA training.


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## Aikikitty (Feb 26, 2009)

Great thread and post Thesemindz! 

My sensei explained on the first day that this is an "up close and smell 'em" type of art and I'd have to get used to it. Just explaining to me what I was in for helped me tolerate the closeness probably sooner than usual. 

Also, when I started, I felt very uncomfortable having all these big guys so close and touching me. Nothing was inappropriate, of course, but I was worried that something "might" happen. I tried to partner up with the one or two other females in the class because it didn't feel as weird. However, all the guys were very friendly and it didn't take too long before I realized I could trust them and that they would never try to feel me up. Even then, at the time I trusted the 'married with kids' guys before I trusted the single guys close to my age. lol I trust the guys completely and I'm so used to the physical closeness now, that I don't even think of it.

Robyn


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## Drac (Feb 26, 2009)

Purchase a couple of RedMan training suits and do some self defense drills...That's what we do in the academy...


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## Drac (Feb 26, 2009)

Better pic


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## searcher (Feb 26, 2009)

Drac said:


> Purchase a couple of RedMan training suits and do some self defense drills...That's what we do in the academy...


 

The problem is $$$$$$$$.


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## suicide (Feb 26, 2009)

:angel: got to show em the business :jediduel:


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## jeff5 (Feb 26, 2009)

We probably don't have any stage in our art where there is not contact.  Our art is rough by its very nature, which probably alienates a lot of people.  The contact does ramp up over time though.  

We start by doing basic foot trapping and sensitivy drills.  Then all of our applications have some form of bodily contact.  It can start light but gets harder.  We also feed each other pretty realistically.  If it's someone new we'll go easy, but with other guys of my level we throw pretty hard at one another.  

At the more advanced stages partners give varying levels of resistence where we go counter for counter.  We'll go from full stand up, to the ground, and back up.  This can go from light play, to extremely hard almost full out.

Our art isn't very structured, but that's usually how it flows.


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## KELLYG (Feb 26, 2009)

We started self defense early in my training, high white-yellow. The first couple of times I did self defense, especially from the prone position, it felt kind of weird and unnatural.  The Master instructor did an excellent job explaining what we were doing, why we were doing it.  That coupled with getting to know the people that I was working with the self- consciousness that I felt went away. 

 As far as force of contact we started off early with drills with pads, Shields, hogu's and we are instructed that give what you want but expect it back as well.  We are usually match up with like rank and size and that makes a big difference as well. Some folks I am not interested in working with because they work full blast even if you ask them to back off.  I think that it is all in what you get used to.


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## Twin Fist (Feb 26, 2009)

hit them

hit them again

keep on hitting them

after a few months, they stop crying about getting hit


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## runnerninja (Feb 26, 2009)

I had a sensei who believed in 'showing the love'! He always said that you wernt doing yourself or your partner any favours by not trying to hit properly(in a controlled way).

I am no training with a group who dont allow anything other than light contact. Its no fun and I han see hugh disadvantages in training this way.


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## bowser666 (Feb 26, 2009)

I am all about contact during training and you need to know what it feels liek to get hit. However, I think it is stupid and moronic to take the Tough guy , no pain no gain approach. Remember, you are there for TRAINING, not INJURY !!  That is why you shoudl excercise good control and not exhibit full force contact. Personally i woudl feel liek crap if I injured someone and made them unable to train anymore.  That to me is a total disregard for the other persons safety. Train safe first and foremost. It shouldn't be about a macho testosterone fest. Just my $0.02


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## Gordon Nore (Feb 26, 2009)

We have a very basic karate drill we do that works for all ranks on any given day. Two partners in Kiba-dachi, facing opposite direction clasp their lead hands lightly together and alternate lead roundhouse kicks to the abdomen or solar plexus. Steady pace, lots of eye contact. Each partner signals to the other that he or she can take a little more contact or needs the other to back off -- kinda' like managing your own pain. You can mix the ranks. A beginning student doesn't have to worry too much at first about hurting. Presumably, I'm gonna show some control and help my partner determine his or her threshold.

On the ground, very basic drills manoevering from guard to mount and back. The Gracie stuff can wait. People need to get used to these rather up-close-and-personal positions. Let everyone start with their preferred partner -- likely, but not always, same gender. When I have a new beginner in my mounted position, I'm matter of fact about the business at hand. I try to keep eye contact with my partner and discuss what we're doing -- hopefully to alleviate the stress of having a big hairy frigger like me sitting on you.


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## just2kicku (Feb 27, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> hit them
> 
> hit them again
> 
> ...


 


Love it!!


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## just2kicku (Feb 27, 2009)

Let's face it, in a self defence situation you are not always going to hit first. We stress that you need to be able to take a hit also. How you react to taking a hit could mean your survival also.

They get to orange belt and it time to pound on each other in class. I don't think there's any other way except just to get hit.


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## Twin Fist (Feb 27, 2009)

just2, I have always done it that way, i found out later that I was, without my knowledge doing things the Kaju way....

I tell my students, you WILL get hit. Sure, we would like to avoid it, but if you cant, your ability to take a hit and not freeze can save your life..


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## searcher (Feb 27, 2009)

TF, I have come to see the light in your way of training.   I am so tired of all the whiney-butts that I am going to have to get harder on my students.    If they don't like it, there is a dance school in the next town over.

Thank goodness we can see what needs to be done in order to salvage a few of our students.


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## teekin (Feb 27, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> hit them
> 
> *hit them again
> 
> ...


*



*   For many people who are *Most* in need  on what MA can offer this approach will drive them out the door and reinforce the stereotype of the MA black belt as a testosterone soaked *******. It will do injury to the student, the instructor and MA as a whole.
 Now normally I agree with you so I am quite sure I am seeing an abbreviated thought here. Am I right or do you really think this subject that simple?
lori


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## just2kicku (Feb 27, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> just2, I have always done it that way, i found out later that I was, without my knowledge doing things the Kaju way....
> 
> I tell my students, you WILL get hit. Sure, we would like to avoid it, but if you cant, your ability to take a hit and not freeze can save your life..


 

I grew up training that way. My Uncle would use me and my cousin as punching bags ALOT. But I was never afraid of taking a hit after a couple years of that. He and my dad are under Sijo and thats the ONLY way you used to train.


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## just2kicku (Feb 27, 2009)

Grendel308 said:


> [/b] For many people who are *Most* in need on what MA can offer this approach will drive them out the door and reinforce the stereotype of the MA black belt as a testosterone soaked *******. It will do injury to the student, the instructor and MA as a whole.
> Now normally I agree with you so I am quite sure I am seeing an abbreviated thought here. Am I right or do you really think this subject that simple?
> lori


 
I don't understand the "most in need" part. I think we practice to fight. Philosophies aside, we fight. If you are not used to getting drilled every now and then, then you don't know how you're going to react when the real thing happens. 

It's not about testosterone, it's about survival. That's what we're training for. If a boxer goes into the ring and he's only done shadow boxing and cardio, then he will get smoked the first time he gets hit.

If someone is so in need of something and doesn't want to get hit then there's always tai bo or cardio kickboxing. Good workout and they don't have to get hit.

I gotta agree with TF on this one, the more you get hit, the better you'll react when you actually do get hit. Hell, we break each others cup all the time from the groin kicks we hit each other with.


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## Twin Fist (Feb 27, 2009)

Grendel,
the part I left out, is that the student ends up hitting me MORE than I hit them.

2 things hold people back in a real life fight

the fear of getting hit

the fear of hitting someone

I eliminate both those fears.

I hit them so they will learn that getting hit wont kill them, as they lose thier fear, they become better able to deal with pain, and less inhibited

by hitting ME, they learn not to be afraid of hitting someone.

if you are afraid of hurting someone, you will NOT be able to defend yourself

no, I am not leaving anything out.

I hit my students, then hit them some more.

I have them hit me. a LOT. I stand right behind them when they are doing reverse punches, and if that rechambered elbow doesnt move me? they are not doing it right.

no one will leave my school wussified. Even if they came in that way.




Grendel308 said:


> [/b] For many people who are *Most* in need on what MA can offer this approach will drive them out the door and reinforce the stereotype of the MA black belt as a testosterone soaked *******. It will do injury to the student, the instructor and MA as a whole.
> Now normally I agree with you so I am quite sure I am seeing an abbreviated thought here. Am I right or do you really think this subject that simple?
> lori


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## teekin (Feb 27, 2009)

just2kicku said:


> *I don't understand *the "most in need" part. I think we practice to fight. Philosophies aside, we fight. If you are not used to getting drilled every now and then, then you don't know how you're going to react when the real thing happens.
> 
> 
> 
> Key phrase.


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## just2kicku (Feb 27, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> Grendel,
> the part I left out, is that the student ends up hitting me MORE than I hit them.
> 
> 2 things hold people back in a real life fight
> ...


 

Damn, I like that!!!


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## teekin (Feb 27, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> Grendel,
> *the part I left out,* is that the student ends up hitting me MORE than I hit them.
> 
> 2 things hold people back in a real life fight
> ...





Thank you for the clarification. It makes more sense with the explanation. I don't agree with it entirely but I can see some value in it. I would hope that whom ever is instructing with this method has enough experience and compassion to know when to back it off and when to push the forward.  Being "dewussified" ( or dewussification) has* Nothing !!!!!!* to do with teaching someone to allow/endure contact of any sort or teaching them to inflict damage on another human. 
lori


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## Sandstorm (Feb 27, 2009)

Grendel308 said:


> [/b] For many people who are Most in need on what MA can offer this approach will drive them out the door and reinforce the stereotype of the MA black belt as a testosterone soaked *******. It will do injury to the student, the instructor and MA as a whole


 
This is the year 2009. I think what you are refering to died out in the 1980's. (at least, here in the UK it did)

Martial arts is about contact. there is no getting away from it. One of the first things a student learns in _most _Martial Arts is...........


....How to punch.

I think that pretty much sums it up really.

Regards
John


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## Nolerama (Feb 27, 2009)

I think a proper gym/dojo/dojang training culture needs to be cultivated. Sparring partners need to communicate while coming into heavy contact with each other, and it needs to start from the first day.

That means, if you're doing a drill where you're striking your partner, your partner gets to do the same drill, and both of you communicate on your contact levels.

I'm not saying that light contact is the way to go all the time, nor am I saying that heavy contact is a bad thing. All contact is a good thing. However, both partners need to communicate with their actions that while they are training to be effective fighters, they are not out there to kill their greatest training tool: their partner. If you break your training partner, your training suffers.

Once that's established, it gives sparring partners a Play mentality, where they're not afraid to try new technique, but good enough contact to tag them to let them know they could do better. Establishing that they shouldn't fear the concept of being hit is really key.

My first day, I got hit square in the face and looking back, I'd say 95% of that was my own ego being bruised, and 5% of damaging contact. It was enough to tilt my head, and I learned two things:

1. Keep my guard up.
2. Gee, my pain threshold is being hindered by my ego. Gotta work on that.

I didn't go home with a mouse on my eye. But it put me into the mindset that I want to explore the MAs even more. Plus, the adrenaline rush is pretty fun.


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## just2kicku (Feb 27, 2009)

Grendel, the part I don't understand is the need for what? Need to learn how to fight, the need to fill a gap in life, or a need to just work out?

 I'm not saying to take a newbie and drill them so they know how it feels, but there comes apoint where they've got to get hit and do some hitting themselves. I do think that by a certain level they should  be able to handle getting hit hard. You can't just teach how to hit all the time without the getting hit. Otherwise, once they do get hit they'll crumple up in a ball and cry. That kinda defeats the purpose.


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## teekin (Feb 27, 2009)

I will get back to you soon Just2kickU , but I have a question. Why did you take up martial arts? And what are you studying?
lori


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## just2kicku (Feb 27, 2009)

Grendel308 said:


> I will get back to you soon Just2kickU , but I have a question. Why did you take up martial arts? And what are you studying?
> lori


 
It was kinda chosen for me, growing up in Hawaii,everybody knew something and fighting after school was an everyday thing. My dad and uncle were Kajukenbo BB's and started training with them. They were there in the early days and always trained that way. Back then' it was if you're gonna bust somebody up, you bust em up good. whether it's in a schoolyard or on the street. But I am a Kaju practitioner.


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 27, 2009)

Thesemindz said:


> Ok, we've discussed this in the past in parts, but how do we take adults who aren't used to any contact at all in their lives, and get them used to hugging and punching and rolling around with other adults?
> 
> One of the biggest challenges many students face, especially at the beginner level, is making physical contact with another adult, especially in a violent context. Many adults go through their daily lives without touching other people. In fact, many go out of their way to avoid any kind of physical contact what so ever, except possibly with their loved ones, and beginning students are often uncomfortable touching or being touched by another adult. I think the process of desensitization should begin in a students very first lesson.
> 
> ...


 

I take one for the team.

I get them hitting a pad or even sparring and throwing punches at me, where I am parry them off. This gets them into the idea of striking. I then let one slip through and let it hit me. This shows them that being hit does not end the fight. That there are still options to continue. I smile at them and make sure the continue to strike. I kepp them striking until I feel they are back at it and then I repeat and let one slip through so they hit me. They have pads on and are not looking to give me a black eye. (* Advanced I have let them hit me in my rubber nose but that is not suggested for others, to show that hitting someone in the head while dangerous is not going to be the single stopper. *)

I then work on increased level of contact. I let sometimes will puch them in a drill to go faster so they make a mistake and they hit me. This shows them the value of control and to train slowly as you can then show them their mistake but just coming close to the level of their msitake. Over time they move up. This timing or speed of movement then allows them get into the grove of sparring.


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## Deaf Smith (Feb 27, 2009)

Benny 'The Jet' had some good ways to desensitize oneself to contact.

Get his book. It's a good one.

Deaf


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## teekin (Feb 28, 2009)

just2kicku said:


> It was kinda chosen for me, growing up in Hawaii,everybody knew something and fighting after school was an everyday thing. My dad and uncle were Kajukenbo BB's and started training with them. They were there in the early days and always trained that way. Back then' it was *if you're gonna bust somebody up, you bust em up good. *whether it's in a schoolyard or on the street. But I am a *Kaju* practitioner.




I am unfamiliar with Kaju, please excuse my ignorance. What I see in your answers tells me you are a young man who thinks MA is about kicking *** and taking names. I don't have the words to tell you how superficial that is. It's like trying to explain color to a blind man. Everyone has their own reasons for studying MA's and not all of them will include learning "to fight"; at least not in the sense you mean. You are seeing so little of what MA has to offer it's like you have blinkers on.
lori


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## just2kicku (Feb 28, 2009)

Grendel308 said:


> I am unfamiliar with Kaju, please excuse my ignorance. What I see in your answers tells me you are a young man who thinks MA is about kicking *** and taking names. I don't have the words to tell you how superficial that is. It's like trying to explain color to a blind man. Everyone has their own reasons for studying MA's and not all of them will include learning "to fight"; at least not in the sense you mean. You are seeing so little of what MA has to offer it's like you have blinkers on.
> lori



Grendel, I would be more than happy to discuss this with you on another thread or PM me. I just don't want to hijack thesemindz thread. The OP asked how to desensitize students to taking blows. Though I am well aware of the other benefits MA has to offer, the answer to THIS question is still the same. I do agree with TF that one will only get desensitized by getting hit and getting hit often.  When it comes down to it, you will be better prepared to defend yourself should the need arise. ( I don't believe in taking names, just kick ***! LOL ) 

Your lips to Gods ears, I'm really not that young. :=)


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## Aniela13 (Feb 28, 2009)

Growing up in MA (and growing up with a big brother in the same MA, lol), I don't think I was ever desensitized to contact in class--that came out of class! My brother and I would practice on each other (with our dad laughing and encouraging us to go harder if we were only hitting air), and on our dad (that stopped after my little 7-year-old self nailed him in the groin, though!)

More recently, though, I think I can observe things better in my new dojo in this regard. Last fall we had an extremely small morning class--myself (a white belt at the time), another white belt, and Sensei. We drilled back and forth with our self-defense techniques; I made light contact, she made little contact, but the fun came at the end of class. Sensei (~6'4", 230 lbs) told us he was going to throw a full-speed, full-strength punch at each of us to make sure we know how to block real punches. Since I had prior MA experience, he started with me, and it was no problem. My classmate Mrs. C, however, is a mid-30's lady who has probably never hit someone in her life--she asked him "but what happens if I miss?", to which he replied "it's going to hurt--so don't miss!" She didn't miss, but it drove the point home to me that most people aren't used to MA like I am, and it taught her not only that she is able to block punches like that, but that she is going to have to if she ever gets attacked.

Other than that? Every now and then I get to the dojo early for my class and get to work with some of the kids in the earlier class, or am paired up with some lower belts during class to teach them something--and every time I make sure they know they have to hit me. We make a joke out of it since I'm smaller than most of them (alas...), but I just tell them that I have an older brother, so I've probably been hit harder than they're going to hit me! I also take the opportunity to lightly hit back when the chance arises--if a student should be guarding his face and isn't, I'll swipe at it; if his block is too slow, he gets hit. We don't get hurt, but hopefully we get dewussified 

~Ani


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## Twin Fist (Feb 28, 2009)

someone gave me a negative rep ding for this, so I thought I ought to repost it:


hit them

hit them again

keep on hitting them

after a few months, they stop crying about getting hit


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## StrongFighter (Feb 28, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> someone gave me a negative rep ding for this, so I thought I ought to repost it:
> 
> 
> hit them
> ...


 
That is what they did in the old days and it still works. 

Men were really Men back then. 

Here is one positive rep. :ultracool


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## Thesemindz (Feb 28, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> someone gave me a negative rep ding for this, so I thought I ought to repost it:
> 
> 
> hit them
> ...


 
You know, I can understand not agreeing with that position. But a negative rep ding? 

Seems a little silly.


-Rob


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## just2kicku (Feb 28, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> someone gave me a negative rep ding for this, so I thought I ought to repost it:
> 
> 
> hit them
> ...


 
And again I'll say, "Love it"


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## searcher (Feb 28, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> someone gave me a negative rep ding for this, so I thought I ought to repost it:
> 
> 
> hit them
> ...


 
I have to agree with you and just2kicku on this one, again.

I know we have had some people state that MA is not all about kicking a**, but then what is it really good for?   If you are looking for spiritual enlightenment, go take some yoga(not all of which is spiritual based) or something of that nature.    Perfection of character, go serve in a soup kitchen.     But please leave the MA alone.    After the week I have had with my students, I am reserving the right to become even more of a sadistical ba****d.    I am so sick of all these people coming in for (fill in the blank with some namby-pamby answer) and crying because I want to teach a MARTIAL art.   I hope I get dinged by the same coward that dinged TF.    If you don't want to prepare your students for what is out there, then fine, stop calling it a martial art.


Sorry for the rant, but it needed to be said.


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## Josh Oakley (Feb 28, 2009)

Absolutely agree. When it comes to martial arts, you are learning to overcome an adversary, whether physically, mentally, or emotionally. Now, in learning this, you learn to overcome yourself as well, but, being martial arts, you're either learning to fight-- to use weapons, and _be_ a weapon--, or you're not learning to fight, you're learning to dance. 

But the problem nowadays is the litigious nature of our culture mixed with a protectionistic fear of any kind of discomfort. 

I was teaching a 6 year old to keep their guard up when they're kicking. I went overboard on protection: I had the kid wear his sparring headgear, and used one of those Century blockers. And I hit just light enough to move his head about a half inch.

_The parents *still*_ talked to me the next day, expressing their concern about that lesson. Never mind the fact that the kid learned to get his guard up. Never mind that he's a blue belt. Never mind that the parent is a _green_ belt and knows first hand the importance of being able to hit and take a hit, as well as keep your guard up. "He's just 6 years old!" they say.

I've trained other kids his size to take on kids twice their size with success. Sorry, I know I'm ranting a little bit. The parents were concerned that all the kid learned was to be afraid of me holding a blocker.

_Sigh....._


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## teekin (Feb 28, 2009)

just2kicku said:


> Grendel, I would be more than happy to discuss this with you on another thread or PM me. I just don't want to hijack thesemindz thread. The OP asked *how to desensitize students to taking blows.* Though I am well aware of the other benefits MA has to offer, the answer to THIS question is still the same. I do agree with TF that one will only get desensitized by getting hit and getting hit often.  When it comes down to it, you will be better prepared to defend yourself should the need arise. ( I don't believe in taking names, just kick ***! LOL )
> 
> Your lips to Gods ears, I'm really not that young. :=)






Sorry sweetie the OP asked "*How do we desensitize our students to contact"* this includes BJJ, Wrestling, Judo, Combat JJ, Akido......ect. Not just the striking arts. But you are correct, I will not _highjack_ another thread.
 If you were going to teach self defence to women who were in a battered women shelter, women who were being hunted, would you use the "Hit 'em, Hit 'em again, Keep hitting 'em or tell them the dance studio is next door" method?  Just asking.:angel: (this is an example of those most in need)
Lori


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## Thesemindz (Mar 1, 2009)

Grendel308 said:


> Sorry sweetie the OP asked "*How do we desensitize our students to contact"* this includes BJJ, Wrestling, Judo, Combat JJ, Akido......ect. Not just the striking arts. But you are correct, I will not _highjack_ another thread.
> If you were going to teach self defence to women who were in a battered women shelter, women who were being hunted, would you use the "Hit 'em, Hit 'em again, Keep hitting 'em or tell them the dance studio is next door" method? Just asking.:angel: (this is an example of those most in need)
> Lori


 
I think something else people missed about my original post in this thread is that I don't just mean traumatic contact, or even grappling contact. I mean *contact*. In general. 

My wife has clients freak when she washes their hair at the salon because they aren't used to strangers touching them.

I had a student break down into tears because someone touched her with their foot.

Adults in our society aren't used to being touched. At all. By _anyone_.

That's what we are facing. That's what we have to overcome. 

Not just their fear of being hit, or grappled with. Their _fear of being touched_.

And that doesn't even take into account people who have PTSD, either from a previous assault or some other traumatic event. Or those who have mental or emotional problems which make contact with others more difficult.


-Rob


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## searcher (Mar 1, 2009)

I guess we all need to go through some sensitivity training and start having group hugs in class.   :wah:


I have had women in my classes before that had their husband try to kill them and their kids.     And trust me, the heavy contact was one of the biggest things that they thanked me for.    Along with that came the proper mindset of dealing with a larger, stronger opponent.

Pain is often a good teacher.


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## just2kicku (Mar 1, 2009)

Grendel308 said:


> Sorry sweetie the OP asked "*How do we desensitize our students to contact"* this includes BJJ, Wrestling, Judo, Combat JJ, Akido......ect. Not just the striking arts. But you are correct, I will not _highjack_ another thread.
> If you were going to teach self defence to women who were in a battered women shelter, women who were being hunted, would you use the "Hit 'em, Hit 'em again, Keep hitting 'em or tell them the dance studio is next door" method? Just asking.:angel: (this is an example of those most in need)
> Lori


 
In order to desensitize ourselves to anything, it has to be done by repitition of that certain thing. For a striker, it's taking shots over and over. For bjj, it's crawling around on the floor till it doesn't feel funny anymore. I asked my grampa when I was young what it was like to shoot someone in the war (WWII) and he said a little hard at first but you get used to it. The enemy is trying to kill you and the more real you train the better off you'll be. 

As far as the example of the battered woman, the rules don't change. once again it does no good to train them to defend themselves and then they're afraid to use it. The contact still has to be there or the training does no good. They have to hit, and yes, get hit also, or roll on the mat with someone. The point is, there is no desensitizing if you avoid the the contact all together.


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## teekin (Mar 1, 2009)

Just2kickU, first let me apologize for being rather sharp with you. My anger was misplaced and I was rude, I am sorry, please forgive me. There are those days when it's evident that I am a few sandwiches short of a picnic.
  In any case try this; You have a 17 year old sister who  heads to LA for a holiday with a few friends. While she is standing on the curb hailing a cab to take her back to the hotel two gang members grab her. These are big muscular guys with prison time, they know how to immobilize her and keep her quiet till they get her into a waiting car. A few solid punches to the head and she is KTFO. She is gang raped and left for dead. Someone calls the cops after the gang leaves and she gets to the hospital. The damage is severe, broken nose, cheek bones, right orbital, torn lips, broken teeth ( from punches whenever she cried out, resisted or didn't comply with the attackers) both writs broken from being stood on, damaged trachea from being choked, internal injuries from repeated kicks and the brutality of the rapes, head trama from the punches and repeated oxygen deprivation from chokes. 
 When your sister makes it back home she will not leave the house, she doesn't like leaving her room when visitors come over. No one but your mom can touch her. She doesn't go to the hair dresser anymore, or the beach, or school, shopping with her freinds, she won't even talk to guys, she can't look you in the eye. Her life gets smaller by the day. The feelings of helplessness, terror, and panic never stop. 
 Do you send her to a school that employs TwiFist's approach? If she breaks down and cries and he tells her the dance studio is next door how do you feel about that?
 Put your Ego aside, think about being this girls brother and reread this thread.
lori


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## Thesemindz (Mar 1, 2009)

searcher said:


> I guess we all need to go through some sensitivity training and start having group hugs in class. :wah:
> 
> 
> I have had women in my classes before that had their husband try to kill them and their kids. And trust me, the heavy contact was one of the biggest things that they thanked me for. Along with that came the proper mindset of dealing with a larger, stronger opponent.
> ...


 
I wouldn't dispute that.

But what about those students, male and female, who can't allow themselves to be touched by strangers, for whatever reason? Do we simply tell them to find someplace else to train? Or do we try to help them break down the emotional barriers they've built so that we can begin to teach them real self defense?

Pain can be a good teacher, but sometimes you have to lead a horse to water.


-Rob


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## just2kicku (Mar 1, 2009)

Grendel308 said:


> Just2kickU, first let me apologize for being rather sharp with you. My anger was misplaced and I was rude, I am sorry, please forgive me. There are those days when it's evident that I am a few sandwiches short of a picnic.
> In any case try this; You have a 17 year old sister who heads to LA for a holiday with a few friends. While she is standing on the curb hailing a cab to take her back to the hotel two gang members grab her. These are big muscular guys with prison time, they know how to immobilize her and keep her quiet till they get her into a waiting car. A few solid punches to the head and she is KTFO. She is gang raped and left for dead. Someone calls the cops after the gang leaves and she gets to the hospital. The damage is severe, broken nose, cheek bones, right orbital, torn lips, broken teeth ( from punches whenever she cried out, resisted or didn't comply with the attackers) both writs broken from being stood on, damaged trachea from being choked, internal injuries from repeated kicks and the brutality of the rapes, head trama from the punches and repeated oxygen deprivation from chokes.
> When your sister makes it back home she will not leave the house, she doesn't like leaving her room when visitors come over. No one but your mom can touch her. She doesn't go to the hair dresser anymore, or the beach, or school, shopping with her freinds, she won't even talk to guys, she can't look you in the eye. Her life gets smaller by the day. The feelings of helplessness, terror, and panic never stop.
> Do you send her to a school that employs TwiFist's approach? If she breaks down and cries and he tells her the dance studio is next door how do you feel about that?
> ...


 

First, there is no need to apologize, we agree to disagree. and I think this is healthy. What a boring world it would be if everyone agreed on everything.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Second, self defence classes are the last thing I would think for this girl( my sister in the example). I would think that getting her to some sort of therapist woulsd be the first order of business to get her head back semi straight. Sometimes people that have undergone such a severe trauma never bounce back, in which case I could not see putting her thru any kind of program. 

But I would have to ask, Is there point to her ever taking self defence, if she can't be touched, would she not be able to protect herself anyway for fear of touching someone else? If so, then there isn't a class anywhere out there for her. Now on the other hand, if she is able to recover (maybe after years of therapy) and decides she will never be a victim again and will do whatever it takes, then I would have to say yes, I would take her to TwinFists' school.

I have met two rape victims in my life, one was a MAist, and you never would have guessed what she went thru until she talked about it. But she was one of the nicest and toughest ladys' I have ever met. The other went thru a lot of therapy and was able to cope with life, but I wouldn't have recomended any kind of training for her. 

I am trying to leave the ego at the door, sort of speak, and I have my own ideas of what should be done with people that do these kind of f'd up crimes. (it involves explosives and sharp blades) But if someone wants to learn self defence, than they have to be able to deal with whatever contact comes with it. And the more of that contact they get, the less it will bother them.


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## just2kicku (Mar 1, 2009)

I think I also need to state that I myself have been talking about 99% of the students that don't have any kind of problems. There are always the "special" cases that involve doing something a little different in the approach. I would not take a student with down syndrome or an autistic student and beat on them per say as I would the other students. There are special circumstances to everything. But someone who does not like to be touched should see a professional first to make sure they are well enough to take a certain class.


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## Thesemindz (Mar 1, 2009)

just2kicku said:


> I think I also need to state that I myself have been talking about 99% of the students that don't have any kind of problems. There are always the "special" cases that involve doing something a little different in the approach. I would not take a student with down syndrome or an autistic student and beat on them per say as I would the other students. There are special circumstances to everything. But *someone who does not like to be touched* should see a professional first to make sure they are well enough to take a certain class.


 
I think a lot of martial artists don't realize that most adult americans don't like to be touched. They don't touch anybody, _ever_, in their daily lives. Outside of their family, they don't hug, they don't grapple, they don't shove each other, they don't even like to shake hands anymore. They bumb closed fists instead. They don't even like to bump into people on accident. Watch them walk through a mall or ride a bus. They collapse in on themselves to avoid coming into contact with each other, and if they do by accident, they recoil.

What I'm trying to convey, and what I think a lot of martial artists forget, is that unlike those of us who have been rolling around and hitting each other for years, when a student comes in off the street they don't have this kind of experience. They aren't used to being touched. I keep using the example of my wife the cosmetologist. She cuts hair. And her clients, who know they are going to a hair stylist to get their hair styled, are _still_ uncomfortable being touched.

It isn't an issue of hit them till they get over it. Its an issue of bringing them to a place where they are ready to _get hit at all_ without heading for the hills, or worse, suing you.


-Rob


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## searcher (Mar 1, 2009)

Thesemindz said:


> But what about those students, male and female, who can't allow themselves to be touched by strangers, for whatever reason? Do we simply tell them to find someplace else to train? Or do we try to help them break down the emotional barriers they've built so that we can begin to teach them real self defense?


 


If they have a real problem with any physical contact, then I cannot help them.    I am not a psychologist or therapist, I am a martial arts instructor.   I can deal with physical problems, but the mindset you are in referance to is beyond my scope of practice.


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## teekin (Mar 2, 2009)

Thesemindz said:


> I think a lot of martial artists don't realize that most adult americans don't like to be touched. They don't touch anybody, _ever_, in their daily lives. Outside of their family, they don't hug, they don't grapple, they don't shove each other, they don't even like to shake hands anymore. They bumb closed fists instead. They don't even like to bump into people on accident. Watch them walk through a mall or ride a bus. They collapse in on themselves to avoid coming into contact with each other, and if they do by accident, they recoil.
> 
> What I'm trying to convey, and what I think a lot of martial artists forget, is that unlike those of us who have been rolling around and hitting each other for years, when a student comes in off the street they don't have this kind of experience. They aren't used to being touched. I keep using the example of my wife the cosmetologist. She cuts hair. And her clients, who know they are going to a hair stylist to get their hair styled, are _still_ uncomfortable being touched.
> 
> ...



Rob I think that getting students to this place takes each student a different amount of time, different methods and perhaps different teachers.  I think that only a small % of MA instructors are either willing or more so Able to work through the barriers you describe. The lucky one find them, the not so lucky ones....... well they get told about the dance studio next door. Rob,  I would say your students got lucky, as was I. Cheers.
lori


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## Thesemindz (Mar 2, 2009)

searcher said:


> If they have a real problem with any physical contact, then I cannot help them. I am not a psychologist or therapist, I am a martial arts instructor. I can deal with physical problems, but the mindset you are in referance to is beyond my scope of practice.


 
I'm willing to admit that I have a somewhat idealistic view of martial arts. I see the arts, and their practice, as something more than the mere transmission of physical technique. I recognize that this is a bit romantic, but I've always been a romantic idealist.

As such, I feel that when someone comes to me to learn self defense, I have a responsibility to that person. I see it as more than merely teaching them to punch and kick. I have had students with mental and emotional problems. I have had students with physical disabilities. I have had students who were the victims of real assaults. Muggings. Rapes.

Some of these students I could help. Some of them I could not. I never tried to exceed my experience. I'm not a licensed physician, or a psychiatrist. But I am a person who cares. As such, I was willing to try.

I had a woman who was middle aged. I never found out what happened to her, because I never asked and she never said, but I could tell she had been a victim of abuse. Probably more than once. Probably most of her life. She wasn't interested in learning how to punch and kick. She wanted to know how to get up if she was pushed to the ground. She wanted to know how to get a bigger stronger man off of her if he held her down. She wanted to know how to get a person out from between her legs while she was on her back. She didn't want to learn bearhug techniques. She didn't want me to put my arms around her, or my hands around her throat.

So I taught her what she wanted to learn. Over time, she became more and more confident in the skills she was learning. She did eventually learn to punch and kick. She grew to love her training. It gave her the confidence to stand up for herself when she was assaulted again years later. 

I had another student who asked me what to do when a man was on top of her holding her down. I tried to teach her some grappling defenses, and some striking options. But no matter what I showed her, she kept asking how she could get him off her if he pinned her arms and held her down, _without hurting him_. In the end, there was nothing I could do, because I could never convince her that she might have to hurt the boyfriend who was date raping her in order to get him to stop.

The people who come into a karate school to learn self defense are each unique creatures. Some come to learn how to dance. Some come to collect trophies. Some come to gain self confidence. In my romantic, idealistic view of the world, the ones who come to learn self defense deserve just that. Real, applicable self defense. Not martial tom foolery. Not mystic nonsense. And if they come to me with scheduling difficulties, or financial problems, or mental or emotional barriers to their learning, then I am willing to do what I can to help.

Because I may not be a physician or a psychiatrist, but I am a person who cares.


-Rob


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## Riaan (Mar 2, 2009)

I think the traditional martial arts that focus on line work (up and down the hall in little neat rows) must change their way of working.  Hitting air will get you nowhere.  In the dojo I train at the only time you stand in a row is when there is conditioning being done with weights, ect.  We almost exclusively do partner work and kata.  I know I had a good time when my arms and shins are bruised.  In the begining it is hard, but in time you will get hard and then also train harder.  BTW I train in Goju Ryu.


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## Thesemindz (Mar 2, 2009)

Riaan said:


> I think the traditional martial arts that focus on line work (up and down the hall in little neat rows) must change their way of working. Hitting air will get you nowhere. In the dojo I train at the only time you stand in a row is when there is conditioning being done with weights, ect. We almost exclusively do partner work and kata. I know I had a good time when my arms and shins are bruised. In the begining it is hard, but in time you will get hard and then also train harder. BTW I train in Goju Ryu.


 
What are you referring to when you speak of kata? For most of us here, I think kata refers to pre-arranged sequences of movement performed without a partner. Are you referring to something else? If not, how does this practice differ in some important way from hitting the air?

I'm not sure I understand where you are going here. I agree that partner training is crucial to any real study of self defense. Are you saying that solo training is without value?


-Rob


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## just2kicku (Mar 2, 2009)

searcher said:


> If they have a real problem with any physical contact, then I cannot help them.    I am not a psychologist or therapist, I am a martial arts instructor.   I can deal with physical problems, but the mindset you are in referance to is beyond my scope of practice.



I think searcher is right. The problem seems more deep rooted then what we are trained to deal with. It's like taking an alcoholic and telling them not to drink, in the end it is THEY themselves that have to decide they want to stop. MA may be a part of their therapy, but their mindset has to be there.

The person who does not liked to be touched is kinda the same way, they have to accept that being touched is part of the training, and then they have to find a way to deal with it. Sometimes they never will be able to, but they need help from other professionals. Everyone has their own battle they will have to fight, sometimes we can advise or be there for support but often these battles are up to them to overcome. To me, it's not fair to the rest of the class to cater to one person. There are private lessons, but the fear of being alone with the instructor and a witness might overcome their desire to learn. I personally am not a therapist or psychologist, but I do think that these people need to take care of the root of their problem first and then come to a class.


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## searcher (Mar 2, 2009)

Riann-I would also like a little deeper explanation, maybe in another thread, about what you are saying in your post.     Kata andpartner training are important, but they are only pieces of the puzzle.    


On subject-some of our kata are for body conditioning and you get whacked while you are doing them.    Ths could pose a problem for the ones we have made discussion of that want NO physical contact.   We start off light and then progress as the students move up in rank.   I think this is probably the same with almost any type of training, correct?


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## Thesemindz (Mar 2, 2009)

As an interesting addition to this thread, I was talking to a friend of mine today about his sister who is taking ballroom dance lessons.

In her school, they addressed this on the first day in the first class. They said that people always get squeamish about touching other adults, so for the first minute of class they paired them all off male/female, and had them stand there hugging each other. For a full minute.

After that awkward hug, most people don't object to putting their hand on someone else's back or holding their hand.

It's a thought. How many martial arts schools are this direct when they begin teaching new students?


-Rob


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## suicide (Mar 2, 2009)

:jediduel: %-}


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## just2kicku (Mar 2, 2009)

Thesemindz said:


> As an interesting addition to this thread, I was talking to a friend of mine today about his sister who is taking ballroom dance lessons.
> 
> In her school, they addressed this on the first day in the first class. They said that people always get squeamish about touching other adults, so for the first minute of class they paired them all off male/female, and had them stand there hugging each other. For a full minute.
> 
> ...



Now we're talking about squeamish and not people who "freak out" when touched ?  If that's the case then when people sign up they are told right out of the gate it's going to be physical and that there will be contact, so I gotta go with TwinFist idea of hitting them till they get used to it.


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## TigerCraneGuy (Mar 2, 2009)

Funny this thread should come up now.

Just last week, I was told by a white belt that I 'blocked' his arm too hard. I shot him an expression of incredulity; he then went on to say that 'no one else blocks this hard' giving me a look that said 'you horrible monster!'

I was once a Purple Belt in Kenpo getting ready to grade for Blue.

I'm now just a Yellow Belt going for his Orange who 'blocks' too hard (Started formal training again after a break of about 8 years).

The technique was Delayed Sword, i.e. technique number 1, and this was not the first time we'd practised it.

I appreciate not going hard on the vital point strikes to areas like the throat; that's just stupid and possibly criminal. But easing up on a block? 

Go figure.

TCG

BTW I'm 36 and he's only 41, so its not the case of some young punk beating up on a frail old man.

Ah well... the joys!


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## Slihn (Mar 2, 2009)

Simpily put ; sparring but you must take care the way you spar. I see alot of people "spar" but it looks more like fighting. You have should spar with high intensity but low impact. That way a student can get the feel of a fight, but be comfortable enough (that he/she wont get knocked ago) that he/she can try new things. If you spar to hard , then you run the risk of injury and are less likely to experiment with new techniques , because if anything goes wrong you'll get hurt.

Also students / teachers whose skills exceeds their sparing partner , must adjust the intensity to what the student can handle. If the student is being completely pummeld by attacks , he /she may lost confidence and will not be able to learn much from sparring.


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## Thesemindz (Mar 2, 2009)

just2kicku said:


> Now we're talking about squeamish and not people who "freak out" when touched ? If that's the case then when people sign up they are told right out of the gate it's going to be physical and that there will be contact, so I gotta go with TwinFist idea of hitting them till they get used to it.


 
Actually, I'm talking about everything between squeamish and total freak out. My point is that your modern American isn't used to, and doesn't like, being touched, for a variety of reasons.

Sorry, but I'm never going to subscribe to the "hit 'em till they quit whining" approach, or the "wimps can go next door" approach. I think we can bring them along, upping the degree of contact gradually, until they _want_ to get hit harder.


-Rob


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## bowser666 (Mar 3, 2009)

StrongFighter said:


> That is what they did in the old days and it still works.
> 
> Men were really Men back then.
> 
> Here is one positive rep. :ultracool



Men were really men ?  What the heck does that have to do with anything ? That is the Macho BS crap I was talking about in a  earlier post.  I would think it is about being smarter and not thinking with your fists. Its actually called evolution  lol. Statements like this sadden me , I am sorry to say.


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## StrongFighter (Mar 3, 2009)

bowser666 said:


> Men were really men ? What the heck does that have to do with anything ? That is the Macho BS crap I was talking about in a earlier post. I would think it is about being smarter and not thinking with your fists. Its actually called evolution lol. Statements like this sadden me , I am sorry to say.


 
Try the evolution crap in prison or in boot camp or places or on the battlefield where fighting survival is absolutely needed and you will be mortified. 

Thinking smarter with good values, trying to talk and calm them down will get you nowhere and possibly killed. In most normal circumstances, That is a good social skill and a very positive trait to have.

You have to have a different way of thinking mindset to go with that. It is an admirable trait to have but there are men in this world who do not think the same way most people think.

There is a good reason why it is called " The Survival of the Fittest. "

It worked in ancient times and it will work today and it will work tomorrow. 

For the martial art classes, sometimes rough n' tumbling time is good to test and see how much and how far a student has learned as close to the real thing.

Rape survivors are a whole another category which needs to be dealt with very gently and take it slow as they build up the courage to fight back then push the envelope incrementally until it is clear she can fight back, for her life.

The politically correct crap is what has me so sick. You can't go around suing people for injuries sustained in martial art classes that were genuine accidents. I have gotten hurt before in martial art classes and what did I do ? I got right back up and went right along with the class.

It is called a WAR ART for a good reason. Most people do it for health reasons like Tai Chi. That is fine. At the end of the day, it is still a martial art. ( a war art ) You should read up about the real history of Tai Chi sometime. You will be shocked that it actually was a war art, not a peaceful art like it is today with ancient rusty leaves blowing in the wind.

Men back then did not cry or complain. They simply were taught and fought. Pain was part of learning. Men shut the boys up and whupped them real quick when the boys complained and stuck them with someone who will make him fight because he has no choice to FIGHT AND LEARN HOW or suffer the shame of injuries and the loss which instills that warrior mindset that losing to the enemy is worse than death.

That is the Bushido code. It was part of the Roman Army Legion's code. Part of the Greek's code too. Every martial art has some kind of warrior code that you live not up to but live by. It becomes a way of life.

If you still do not understand, watch the movie about the Greeks and the Persians called " 300 " until you really understand that one. The training is called Agoge. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agoge 

Today's martial art classes are watered down agoges but you still can learn about the history, tracing the techniques to ancient warfare techniques. It is just not to that extreme level as it rightfully should be.

Bruce Lee said it best. " *What you HABITUALLY THINK largely determines what you will ultimately become. "*

" *A self-willed man obeys a different law, the one law I, too, hold absolutely sacred &#8212; the human law in himself, his own individual will.* "

*" Life itself is your teacher, and you are in a state of constant learning.* "

Unconsciously or not, You are learning a warrior art passed down from generations. Almost all of the martial arts has a long history of being involved in ancient wars. The boys quickly became Men in no time.


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## bowser666 (Mar 3, 2009)

StrongFighter said:


> Try the evolution crap in prison or in boot camp or places or on the battlefield where fighting survival is absolutely needed and you will be mortified.
> 
> Thinking smarter with good values, trying to talk and calm them down will get you nowhere and possibly killed. In most normal circumstances, that is a good social skill and a very positive trait to have
> 
> ...



I understand your point but ever think that it's just that mentality that may have a direct contribution to putting them in prison ?  LOL  Relook at what you jstu wrote. i am not trying to be sarcastic but help you see what you said. Solving problems with contact/violence/overagression, etc.  no doubt put them in prison. In regards to being on the Battlefield , obviously there would be a difference.  It is after all WAR !!!  Good thing we do not live in a constant state of war in the US then huh ?  Well not yet anyways....


By the way I study Tajiquan and am well aware that it is a Martial ART. Please don't assume that you are talking to an unlearned person. Remember this forum is full of knowledgeable students/teachers/masters. You have to also understand that this is modern day, not Sparta, Or Ancient Greece, or Miedeval China. It is a more modern day and age and we are supposed to be more civilized.

For the record I avidly practice Kung Fu, I also practice Tai Chi. We do plenty of Chin na, San Shou Sparring in class. I am jsut not about the macho , I punch you in face . I am man. We are not cave men anymore. We can adapt the art to fit our lifestyle.


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## Thesemindz (Mar 3, 2009)

bowser666 said:


> this is modern day, not Sparta, Or Ancient Greece, or Miedeval China. It is a more modern day and age and we are supposed to be more civilized.


 
I understand your point, and I think it has some merit, but I think you also have to remember that there are animals all around you.

You drive right past them every day. You see them at the supermarket, and the mall, and the theater. They work with you, they eat at the same restaraunts you do, and they pray to the same god.

The difference is they may occasionally rape, murder, mug, assault, and torture people just like you. Which, I am assuming here, you do not.

The world may seem more civilized, but many of the people within it are not. There are monsters around you every day. Keep an eye out and an ear open and you'll see them. Contrary to the old saying, they don't _all_ look just like everybody else.


-Rob


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## bowser666 (Mar 3, 2009)

Thesemindz said:


> I understand your point, and I think it has some merit, but I think you also have to remember that there are animals all around you.
> 
> You drive right past them every day. You see them at the supermarket, and the mall, and the theater. They work with you, they eat at the same restaraunts you do, and they pray to the same god.
> 
> ...



Its very true, and it is a reason I practice Kung Fu , so that I am better equipped to handle an issue. I also know that I am not going to walk around living in fear because the person that lives across the hall is a psychopath. ( She is actually pretty hot !   ) Then again she might be a Loretta Bobbit I suppose ( YIKES !!!) There are always going to be bad apples in every bunch.  I will worry about them, when they get in my face. Otherwise I will be guarded , but not live hiding behind closed doors for fear of my neighbor.


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## Slihn (Mar 3, 2009)

just2kicku said:


> Now we're talking about squeamish and not people who "freak out" when touched ? If that's the case then when people sign up they are told right out of the gate it's going to be physical and that there will be contact, so I gotta go with TwinFist idea of hitting them till they get used to it.


 
I'm sorry man , but I have to disagree with you on this.I think a better approach is to actually teach them someting about fighting and defense, build their confidence , and then after they are confident in their skills then slowly introduce them to light contact.Thats the way we do in in Muay Thai and Muay Thai has brought fourth some of the most powerful strikers on the face of the planet.

Its funny the way the we train in America , we are so fast to beat each other silly , but if you go to Thailand , they go really hard on the pads and light on each other.There are very few injuries there and 99.9% of the fighters are HIGHLY skillful!!


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## Slihn (Mar 3, 2009)

StrongFighter said:


> Try the evolution crap in prison or in boot camp or places or on the battlefield where fighting survival is absolutely needed and you will be mortified.
> 
> Thinking smarter with good values, trying to talk and calm them down will get you nowhere and possibly killed. In most normal circumstances, That is a good social skill and a very positive trait to have.
> 
> ...


 

You have the wrong attidute for martial arts. I am a Muay Thai Fighter and an Iraq War Vetearn. I went to basic training and yes they yell and its brutal but honestly it is all not needed. I dont need someone yelling ans spitting in my face just to tell me how to take apart my rifle.I understand why they do it , but it is still un needed. Pain is not a part of learning , it is a part of conditioning. BIG difference. 90% of the yelling and screaming is for fear based motovation, but when it is time to actually learn something (like how to acutally shoot a rifle, when to aim for the kill , the oder of muiltple targets , how to raid and clear a room full of people without shoot hostiages) they calm it down abit so that you can acutally learn. 

The "FIGHT AND LEARN HOW" approach produces sloppy fighters and ad reflexes. What is better is to learn the technique , drill it and then train it. This seperates the fighters from the brawlers.The military does the yelling thing only as an attempt , to give you a "killer instinct" , to make you "mean" and to raise moral, but when you need to learn technique they calm it down.


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## Slihn (Mar 3, 2009)

StrongFighter said:


> Try the evolution crap in prison or in boot camp or places or on the battlefield where fighting survival is absolutely needed and you will be mortified.
> 
> Thinking smarter with good values, trying to talk and calm them down will get you nowhere and possibly killed. In most normal circumstances, That is a good social skill and a very positive trait to have.
> 
> ...


 
Also , American cilivan life ain't war, Ive been to war and this aint it. Martial Arts of these days should focus on self-defense not war. Unless you are a US. Army Solder or Marine than you really dont study "ancient warfare techniques" because you'll never use them.


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## bowser666 (Mar 3, 2009)

ChzKmt said:


> You have the wrong attidute for martial arts.



How do I have the wrong attitude lol ? Martial Arts is jsut this, you take away what you want from it. It is a ART, and a LIVING ART at that. It is adaptable to the practitioner. My attitude is that I am there to train and to learn, and gain more knowledge of self. How is that a wrong attitude ?It's MY ATTITUDE!I am confident enough in my well rounded abilities to handle myself appropriately.  I am not going to live life with the Cobra Kai mentality of " There is no Pain in this dojo, fear does not exist in this dojo, there is no mercy , blah blah blah. 

I am perfectly content with my attitude towards martial Arts.


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## Thesemindz (Mar 3, 2009)

bowser666 said:


> How do I have the wrong attitude lol ? Martial Arts is jsut this, you take away what you want from it. It is a ART, and a LIVING ART at that. It is adaptable to the practitioner. My attitude is that I am there to train and to learn, and gain more knowledge of self. How is that a wrong attitude ?It's MY ATTITUDE!I am confident enough in my well rounded abilities to handle myself appropriately. I am not going to live life with the Cobra Kai mentality of " There is no Pain in this dojo, fear does not exist in this dojo, there is no mercy , blah blah blah.
> 
> I am perfectly content with my attitude towards martial Arts.


 
Go back and look again, he wasn't responding to you. He was responding to StrongFighter.


-Rob


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## Slihn (Mar 3, 2009)

bowser666 said:


> How do I have the wrong attitude lol ? Martial Arts is jsut this, you take away what you want from it. It is a ART, and a LIVING ART at that. It is adaptable to the practitioner. My attitude is that I am there to train and to learn, and gain more knowledge of self. How is that a wrong attitude ?It's MY ATTITUDE!I am confident enough in my well rounded abilities to handle myself appropriately. I am not going to live life with the Cobra Kai mentality of " There is no Pain in this dojo, fear does not exist in this dojo, there is no mercy , blah blah blah.
> 
> 
> I am perfectly content with my attitude towards martial Arts.


 
Hey man I was responding to someone else. I agree with you.


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## just2kicku (Mar 3, 2009)

Thesemindz said:


> Actually, I'm talking about everything between squeamish and total freak out. My point is that your modern American isn't used to, and doesn't like, being touched, for a variety of reasons.
> 
> Sorry, but I'm never going to subscribe to the "hit 'em till they quit whining" approach, or the "wimps can go next door" approach. I think we can bring them along, upping the degree of contact gradually, until they _want_ to get hit harder.
> 
> ...


 
If we're talking about touching, that starts the first day. We are constantly "touching" the students. When I correct them I touch them. It could be squaring their shoulders or raising their block where it's supposed to be or kicking their back leg so they lock it in a front stance. Once they've learned techniques, there is nothing worse then for them to short their punch five inches from your face. Yes, we subscribe to the rule that if you get punched in your face then you should have blocked it. The students seem to like this training. We kick their legs and punch their stomachs when they are in a horse to make sure they are tightend up. And there is a dance studio next door to us. LOL 

I am not a babysitter or a cardio instructor, we teach self defence. I've said in one of my posts that by orange belt we expect good, hard contact giving and receiving. I care for all the students, I want them to be good at this. With some, they go so far and hit that mental "I'm scared" block. That's when I say hit them some more, get them used to it. I let them hit me too, it's not a one way street. 

I've said this before, but this generation has gotten soft.


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## just2kicku (Mar 3, 2009)

ChzKmt said:


> I'm sorry man , but I have to disagree with you on this.I think a better approach is to actually teach them someting about fighting and defense, build their confidence , and then after they are confident in their skills then slowly introduce them to light contact.Thats the way we do in in Muay Thai and Muay Thai has brought fourth some of the most powerful strikers on the face of the planet.
> 
> Its funny the way the we train in America , we are so fast to beat each other silly , but if you go to Thailand , they go really hard on the pads and light on each other.There are very few injuries there and 99.9% of the fighters are HIGHLY skillful!!


 

Yes, I agree with you. But when it comes time to practice these techniques or blocks it does no good to practice them half assed. I am a firm believer in Hard in practice, Easy in battle. I tell the students to not short stroke their punches because when you get to the street and you're used to doing that you'll do it to an attacker. My instructor always said it takes pain to kill pain. The more you do something the easier it gets.


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## bowser666 (Mar 4, 2009)

Slihn said:


> Hey man I was responding to someone else. I agree with you.



Sorry about that.  I didn't see that reference. I am also sorry to hear that some teachers think students are meant to be punching bags. I personally think that you should train smarter and not HARD-er.  Meaning the impact aspects of it.  Yes you need to know what it is liek to feel a hit, but that doesn't mean pound the crap out of each other either. Save that for people in the street. Best training you can provide someone in my opinion is not how to take a hit, but how to think under pressure, and how to control your adrenaline. Not , how to go toe to toe with a combatant. It kind of doesn't make sense to me.  Sorry................  Fighting is 90% thought and 10% physical combat.


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## just2kicku (Mar 4, 2009)

bowser666 said:


> Sorry about that.  I didn't see that reference. I am also sorry to hear that some teachers think students are meant to be punching bags. I personally think that you should train smarter and not HARD-er.  Meaning the impact aspects of it.  Yes you need to know what it is liek to feel a hit, but that doesn't mean pound the crap out of each other either. Save that for people in the street. Best training you can provide someone in my opinion is not how to take a hit, but how to think under pressure, and how to control your adrenaline. Not , how to go toe to toe with a combatant. It kind of doesn't make sense to me.  Sorry................  Fighting is 90% thought and 10% physical combat.



I don't recall anyone saying to use students as punching bags. I never minded being used as a punching bag, I fugured that one of these days I'll get tired of being hit and at least my defense will get better. it's one thing to hit your students and a whole other to beat them senseless. Contact has to be there, no other way around it.


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## Slihn (Mar 4, 2009)

just2kicku said:


> Yes, I agree with you. But when it comes time to practice these techniques or blocks it does no good to practice them half assed. I am a firm believer in Hard in practice, Easy in battle. I tell the students to not short stroke their punches because when you get to the street and you're used to doing that you'll do it to an attacker. My instructor always said it takes pain to kill pain. The more you do something the easier it gets.


 
I am not talking about practice techniques incorrectly , but more technically while acutally learning the technique. You are not going to drill those techniques into memory by killing your parthners. For example in Muay Thai we go REALLY hard on the Thai Pads , we let ALL of our power out , but we spar with high intensity but low impact. This way you will develop correct skill , muscle memory and correct technique.

I use to think that it was better to go all out and try to knock out my sparring parthners when I first started Muay Thai . Yeah I could take a punch , I guess , but I had no real skill , I was becoming more like a brawler instead of a fighter.It wasnt until I started the high instensity lower impact sparring that I started to have skill that I acutally used in the ring. Remember its muscle memory what we are stiving for no matter what style. If you spar so hard that you cant walk for two days then it doesnt do you much good. In class (after pad work) we spar about 5 - 10  3min rounds + with different sparring parthners. When you spar , it should be instensive enough to almost remsemble a real fight , but low impact enough so that you can spar all night and acutally be able to train and do it again the next day.

In fights I can almost tell who trains this way and who doesnt.


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## shihansmurf (Mar 6, 2009)

Well, let's see if this thread about contact in training hits all the bases for devolving into a pointless contest of dick waving...

1.  If you ain't punching hard you ain't training, or some version thereof. Check.  Look, people train for a lot of reasons. Actually developing useful fighting skills does not always rank high on that last, as absurd as I personally find that, and for those folks the need to beat the hell out of each other in class just isn't there. For anyone to look down their noses at another martial artist that knowingly trains in a light contact school, who has no delusions of being an actual fighter, is laughable. 

2. What about rape survivors? How do you handle rape survivors? What do you do about abused women?

I send them to people that are actually qualified to help them. Everyone that walks through the door of my dojo is unique. Some I have the ability to teach and others I don't. People that have the degree of emotional issues that have been described in this thread are beyond my ability level as an instructor of a sport. I, like the overwhelming majority of other contributers to this thread, do not work in the mental health field( I presume-I could be wrong, on other peoples qualifications) and am threrefore not qualified be a part of their therapy without the supervision of a qualified mental health professional present.  Last I checked my black belt didn't equate to a degree in psychology.

3.  Soldiers train to kill. We civilians should train like soldiers. About this time some one will chime in with the observation that civilian martial artist are not soldiers and shouldn't use the same methodology.

I don't have a lot to add. I just wanted to type out the above so I could make sure that I copy it to a Word document for the next time a thread like this pops up so I'll be prepared. I hope to be able to quickly copy and paste it in before the descussion devolves into those same points.

Look. As a soldier and a martial artist, it is interesting to me how often I get drawn into these type of conversations. Hand to hand is a tertiary skill for us.It is vastly inferior as a combat skill to every form of weapon ever designed or improvised. Sort of the purpose of weapons, in fact.We shoot people.It works better. Looking to the military as the proving ground for a hand to hand system doesn't make a hell of a lot of sense. It isn't what we do. Not our raison d'etre. The UFC guys, much more logical.  I would take a LEOs advice on most combatives over nearly any soldiers any day of the week, as they have more practical experiance. Just a professional soldiers view.

Back on topic.

Sit the student down and have a open talk with them. Find out what it is that they want from training. If it matches what you can, and are willing, to provide then explaing that physical contact is part and parcel of martial art training. Start with light contact in a very controlled mannerand work your way up to what ever the highest level of contact that you utilize in your school is.

TWINFIST:  I, personally, agree with your approach. I don't know if it was the old school sensei I came up under or just the all the boxing I did when I was younger but I am of the view that the Arts are, ultimately, about the ability to fight. Just my view. It may not work for all but it is how I do things.





None of the above is aimed at any specific post or poster. I've read several of these threads on this topic and I noticed that they seem to devolve into 
this same crap. I find this disheartening, given the knowledge base and intellect of the most of the people that post on these boards. There are too many well trained, well rounded, and informed people, that engage here to fall into these same responses.

Mark


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## chisaotiger (Mar 10, 2009)

In our school we desensitize the adults the same way as the kids. We SPAR! We have a box of old gear to throw on the noobies, hands, feet and sometimes head gear (their choice) and put them toe to toe with higher ranking brown or black belts or even our Sifus. They bow and are taught to say out loud as a whole class, "I am not going to hurt you", "I am your friend", "I will control myself and my body" "I expect to get hit".
Then they shake hands and take defensive stances and when Sifu says spar, they go! At first they only spar for about 1 min rounds. Sifu then switches all the partners and by the end of sparring time they have sparred with at least 15 different people. For ground work our Sifu has them watch the upper ranks grapple (we take it easy when lower ranks are watching) and then invites them to take a turn if they want to. He is good at getting them to play! Sifu always makes it fun and games at first and then as a student progresses he will move them into the Intermediate classes and then the advanced classes. Also what helps is having your upper ranks come in to Begginers class to help play! So I think it is so important to have 3 classes. Sifu only moves them up when he thinks they are ready to rock-n-roll. We also spar with music cranked up and our classes tend to be a little air guitar/sparring! FUN FUN FUN!


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## chisaotiger (Mar 11, 2009)

Another thought....

If an adult is coming in to learn martial arts I think they are already aware that martial arts is full of all kinds of contact so, it is no surprise to most adults that they are going to be hitting and be hit and if it is a surprise then they really don't belong in martial arts!!!!!! Our school actually has a separate class for women's self defense. They only learn self defense and are taught about scratching the eyes out & ripping the *alls off kind of stuff. They do not learn our art of KAJUKENBO (although eye scratching and *all ripping are great techniques!) they have more private lessons with our Sifu's and are not required to come to line up. Most of them however are able to overcome their "contact isssues" by the end of the women's class and come and join our regular basic class to learn the art. So having great Sifu's and many types of classes is they way we do it.
As we progress in our ranks we are also taught it is our responsibility to teach the under-belts as we spar. We show them as we go. We don't just beat the bejeezus out of em. We play as hard as they want to play and then when they start intermediate class (no time for playing anymore) we weed out the wusses with a few hard knocks now and then (~not really hurting them~) If they come back, they usually stay for life. Then by the time you reach advanced class you are expected to know and use control and at the same time go full force without going into the "danger zone". 
FYI in all my short 5 years with my Sifu's we have only had one student who left because they got hit. She was also a Barbie Doll type and didn't want to spar at all anyway in case her make up got messed up. People like that do not belong in martial arts anyway!


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## Stac3y (Mar 11, 2009)

LOL! The highlight of one of my club's events for kids is when they get someone to dress in a Red Man Suit and let the little monkeys whomp on him with sticks!


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## bowser666 (Mar 11, 2009)

chisaotiger said:


> Another thought....
> 
> If an adult is coming in to learn martial arts I think they are already aware that martial arts is full of all kinds of contact so, it is no surprise to most adults that they are going to be hitting and be hit and if it is a surprise then they really don't belong in martial arts!!!!!! Our school actually has a separate class for women's self defense. They only learn self defense and are taught about scratching the eyes out & ripping the *alls off kind of stuff. They do not learn our art of KAJUKENBO (although eye scratching and *all ripping are great techniques!) they have more private lessons with our Sifu's and are not required to come to line up. Most of them however are able to overcome their "contact isssues" by the end of the women's class and come and join our regular basic class to learn the art. So having great Sifu's and many types of classes is they way we do it.
> As we progress in our ranks we are also taught it is our responsibility to teach the under-belts as we spar. We show them as we go. We don't just beat the bejeezus out of em. We play as hard as they want to play and then when they start intermediate class (no time for playing anymore) we weed out the wusses with a few hard knocks now and then (~not really hurting them~) If they come back, they usually stay for life. Then by the time you reach advanced class you are expected to know and use control and at the same time go full force without going into the "danger zone".
> FYI in all my short 5 years with my Sifu's we have only had one student who left because they got hit. She was also a Barbie Doll type and didn't want to spar at all anyway in case her make up got messed up. People like that do not belong in martial arts anyway!



Its kind of a blanket statement and a wrong one at that for any one person to judge who or who should not be involved in martial Arts.  Remember some people do it strictly for health aspects. Not just to kick *** and take some more names.  Please try to remember that.


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## Bruno@MT (Mar 11, 2009)

Contact is normal, and during practise there is a lot of contact. That is what some people have to overcome. In my experience, women generally have a higher initial boundary to contact and the concept of actually trying to hit someone. That disappears. (On a side note, never have I looked so beaten up as when I assisted in women self defense class )

But sparring is a different matter. I will not engage in full contact sparring. Period. MA is a hobby to me. I am a system engineer, and my brain is kinda important to me. I had a severe concussion once, and I don't fancy another one. My livelihood depends on the ability to spend 8-12 hours per day behind a computer screen. Risking a concussion is not worth it to me.
I like light and medium contact sparring, and grapling wrestling all out. Accidents can still happen, but the chance of concussion is significantly less than with full contact sparring.

So the argument that people refusing full contact are wusses is imo a load of crap. Just because you (*chisaotiger* ) happen to like full contact doesn't mean that everybody should do so, and it doesn't mean that people who don't should quit MA.


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## TigerCraneGuy (Mar 11, 2009)

Bruno@MT said:


> Contact is normal, and during practise there is a lot of contact. That is what some people have to overcome. In my experience, women generally have a higher initial boundary to contact and the concept of actually trying to hit someone. That disappears. (On a side note, never have I looked so beaten up as when I assisted in women self defense class )
> 
> But sparring is a different matter. I will not engage in full contact sparring. Period. MA is a hobby to me. I am a system engineer, and my brain is kinda important to me. I had a severe concussion once, and I don't fancy another one. My livelihood depends on the ability to spend 8-12 hours per day behind a computer screen. Risking a concussion is not worth it to me.
> I like light and medium contact sparring, and grapling wrestling all out. Accidents can still happen, but the chance of concussion is significantly less than with full contact sparring.
> ...


 
Excellent points.

Just thought I'd focus on the bolded bit and say this:

It's crucial that potential students of the martial arts research those particular systems or styles they are plan to take up, so as to avoid getting into something they're not prepared for.

For instance, I train in Kenpo 5.0 and it's not a low-contact system. And for that matter, from what I understand, Kajukenbo's philosophy of training is definitely not low-contact either.

I'm not saying these systems are full of psycho-types; myself and most of my fellow practitioners are just normal men and women who work a 10-12 hour day on top of learning how to handle ourselves out there in the real world. All I'm saying is that such systems generally attract those who want to train hard for street defense by a certain methodology and mindset.

So if a potential student does not like dishing out and experiencing contact and/ or hard, realistic (not psychotic, mind you) training, then perhaps they need to seek another style/ system/ school.

And there are many other styles/ systems/ schools out there, which would better cater to their needs. They don't have to quit MA altogether; they just have to decide what suits them best.  

Sport, fitness, self-development, street survival; look for that which fits your requirements and and then go for it.

Do not, however, expect the philosophy of the style/ system/ school to change because you happen to disagree with it.

Best regards,
TCG


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## Bruno@MT (Mar 12, 2009)

Of course you are right about that. A person should know what they are getting into, and understand that it is expected that they subject to the school's approach. And theat means they have to do some research up front.

It would be rather silly of me to start muay thai, kyukishinkan, or kempo (based on your description. no kempo around here) if I was not prepared to spar full contact 

I don't have any negative thoughts about full contact, or those who do it. It's just not something I like doing myself, for the reasons mentioned above. And I have a lot of respect for people who do.


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 12, 2009)

bowser666 said:


> How do I have the wrong attitude lol ? Martial Arts is jsut this, you take away what you want from it. It is a ART, and a LIVING ART at that. It is adaptable to the practitioner. My attitude is that I am there to train and to learn, and gain more knowledge of self. How is that a wrong attitude ?It's MY ATTITUDE!I am confident enough in my well rounded abilities to handle myself appropriately.  I am not going to live life with the Cobra Kai mentality of " There is no Pain in this dojo, fear does not exist in this dojo, there is no mercy , blah blah blah.
> 
> I am perfectly content with my attitude towards martial Arts.


 Okay, Daniel-san.......:mst:

Cobra Kai......I haven't thought about them in years!


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 12, 2009)

just2kicku said:


> Yes, I agree with you. But when it comes time to practice these techniques or blocks it does no good to practice them half assed. I am a firm believer in Hard in practice, Easy in battle. I tell the students to not short stroke their punches because when you get to the street and you're used to doing that you'll do it to an attacker. My instructor always said it takes pain to kill pain. The more you do something the easier it gets.


 Stress inoculation......give the student ever increasing doses of what he fears.......only so much as he can handle, but always increasing......until he can handle far more than he'll probably need to.


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 12, 2009)

bowser666 said:


> Sorry about that.  I didn't see that reference. I am also sorry to hear that some teachers think students are meant to be punching bags. I personally think that you should train smarter and not HARD-er.  Meaning the impact aspects of it.  Yes you need to know what it is liek to feel a hit, but that doesn't mean pound the crap out of each other either. Save that for people in the street. Best training you can provide someone in my opinion is not how to take a hit, but how to think under pressure, and how to control your adrenaline. Not , how to go toe to toe with a combatant. It kind of doesn't make sense to me.  Sorry................  Fighting is 90% thought and 10% physical combat.


 It depends on what you want out of training.......if what you want is a colorful costume and a formal reverence to tradition, there's nothing wrong with that.

However, if our first goal and intent is to put the emphasis on the MARTIAL rather than the art.......then you learn to fight by learning to fight......and as to the thinking, part of being able to think is to learn to think while fighting......by fighting.

You can't train someone to train while being punched without training them while they are being punched.  Some folks think they can.....but the results can often be seen when their students REALLY get punched for the first time.

Again, if your goal is 90% art and 10% martial, more power to you.........but thinking you can learn to fight without fighting, is like thinking you can learn to play football without ever gearing up, getting on a football field and running plays while folks are slamming in to you......it's wishful thinking at best.


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 12, 2009)

Bruno@MT said:


> Of course you are right about that. A person should know what they are getting into, and understand that it is expected that they subject to the school's approach. And theat means they have to do some research up front.
> 
> It would be rather silly of me to start muay thai, kyukishinkan, or kempo (based on your description. no kempo around here) if I was not prepared to spar full contact
> 
> I don't have any negative thoughts about full contact, or those who do it. It's just not something I like doing myself, for the reasons mentioned above. And I have a lot of respect for people who do.



Exactly right......I pass no judgment about folks who want to practice an art form that is also a good workout, with traditions and discipline.  Nothing wrong with that.

Where I begin to disagree, though, is when those folks get the idea that they are somehow preparing for a physical confrontation on the same level as those who spar hard and make had contact......or, in some cases, that they actually think they are MORE prepared because of some esoteric secret 5 finger floating palm technique.

The bottom line is that we need to be honest with ourselves what we are doing, and what it is good for and what it isn't.


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## Bruno@MT (Mar 12, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> However, if our first goal and intent is to put the emphasis on the MARTIAL rather than the art.......then you learn to fight by learning to fight......and as to the thinking, part of being able to think is to learn to think while fighting......by fighting.


 
Not black and white. Just because you use enough control not to KO people or punching them full force in the liver doesn't mean you are not fighting. Yes, I will be less experienced than someone doing full contact, but that does not make what I do glorified dancing.



sgtmac_46 said:


> You can't train someone to train while being punched without training them while they are being punched. Some folks think they can.....but the results can often be seen when their students REALLY get punched for the first time.


 
There is more to fighting than punching and kicking.
An experienced judoka can kick ***, yet he doesn't spar acording to your definition. He uses throws and locks instead of kicks and punches.
I am a newbie at ninpo, but I have 3,5 years of ju-jitsu experience with locks, throws etc. So while I won't stand a chance in a standing distance fight, if I can come close enough to grab hold, I am definitely a match for someone who hasn't focused on that.

Have you ever seen the gracie challenge fights, where royce gracie challenged MA teachers to fight? most distance fighters didn't have a clue what to do when royce got in and worked his stuff.

so no full contact does not mean that you are unprepared to fight. It  depends on how you train, how you spar and what your style is.



sgtmac_46 said:


> Again, if your goal is 90% art and 10% martial, more power to you.........but thinking you can learn to fight without fighting, is like thinking you can learn to play football without ever gearing up, getting on a football field and running plays while folks are slamming in to you......it's wishful thinking at best.


 
I am pretty sure that even in football practise, team mates don't hit each other with all of the nastiness that is used in the field. They will perform takedowns and tackles, but they are not intent on really hurting each other. And even if they do in the major league, they won't in the minor league. And that doesn't mean that the minor leaguers don't play football.



sgtmac_46 said:


> Where I begin to disagree, though, is when those folks get the idea that they are somehow preparing for a physical confrontation on the same level as those who spar hard and make had contact......or, in some cases, that they actually think they are MORE prepared because of some esoteric secret 5 finger floating palm technique.
> .


 
If the full contact fighter is not also training in grapling / wrestling / submission, he is also not fully preparing.
If a full contact fighter has no experience with jiu-jitsu style fighting, then it all depends on who can dictate the distance.
Btw, youtube has a large collection of the gracie fights to prove this point. search for 'gracie vs kungfu' or 'gracie vs xxx'

I agree with the 5 finger floating palm remark.
In ninpo we also learn about the location of pressure points etc. But if your basic skills are not up to snuff, they that knowledge won't do you any good. On the other hand, if you spend years and years on the basics, then the more exotic stuff can give you an edge. You can't take shortcuts though.



sgtmac_46 said:


> The bottom line is that we need to be honest with ourselves what we are doing, and what it is good for and what it isn't.


 
That is absolutely true.


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 12, 2009)

Bruno@MT said:


> Not black and white. Just because you use enough control not to KO people or punching them full force in the liver doesn't mean you are not fighting. Yes, I will be less experienced than someone doing full contact, but that does not make what I do glorified dancing.


 No, it doesn't mean someone is just doing glorified dancing.....but without hard contact, someone isn't fully preparing for hard contact either.





Bruno@MT said:


> There is more to fighting than punching and kicking.
> An experienced judoka can kick ***, yet he doesn't spar acording to your definition. He uses throws and locks instead of kicks and punches.
> I am a newbie at ninpo, but I have 3,5 years of ju-jitsu experience with locks, throws etc. So while I won't stand a chance in a standing distance fight, if I can come close enough to grab hold, I am definitely a match for someone who hasn't focused on that.


 That's because Judoka (I am one) randori, and train EXACTLY how they fight......by slamming each other in to the mat, throwing on chokes and armbars full power, and generally sparring hard.  By 'hard contact' I don't just mean Muay Thai or boxing.....I mean hard sparring.  Grapplers spar hard, and engage in heavy physical contact.  They learn what it's like to have their head in a vice, with someone torquing down, crushing the air out, and the panic of being pinned and unable to move.....and then learn to operate in that environment.



Bruno@MT said:


> Have you ever seen the gracie challenge fights, where royce gracie challenged MA teachers to fight? most distance fighters didn't have a clue what to do when royce got in and worked his stuff.


 Ah, but again the Gracies train like they fight........hard sparring, choking and throwing on arm bars at full power, tapping each other out, and even choking each other out.  Hard contact, repeated over and over again until training is as much like fighting as can possibly be done.



Bruno@MT said:


> so no full contact does not mean that you are unprepared to fight. It  depends on how you train, how you spar and what your style is.


 I disagree.......as I pointed out earlier, preparing for a physical altercation without physical contact, is like preparing to play tackle football by practicing touch football......you can only learn so much without being under the pressure of hitting and being hit, and learning what it's like to hit and be hit.  Yes, it's better than doing nothing.......but it's certainly not a substitute for hard contact, if it is one's goal to realistically prepare for a physical struggle.  If that's not one's goal, then so be it.  We live in a society where it really isn't necessary to fight.....there are alternatives and options.






Bruno@MT said:


> I am pretty sure that even in football practise, team mates don't hit each other with all of the nastiness that is used in the field. They will perform takedowns and tackles, but they are not intent on really hurting each other. And even if they do in the major league, they won't in the minor league. And that doesn't mean that the minor leaguers don't play football.


 Nor is a sparing partner trying to hurt the other sparing partner by punching and kicking them.....but they ARE trying to recreate, as close as possible, real conditions WITHOUT inflicting injury.  That is the point.  The more realistic the practice, the more one prepares for the real thing.

In short, anything less than full contact is less than full preparation.  If someone is satisified with partial preparation, that's fine with me.......we just need to be honest with ourselves about our own level of training and capability.  Just because someone isn't training to peak, doesn't mean they can't handle MANY situations......but it's not to the same level of preparation as it could be.






Bruno@MT said:


> If the full contact fighter is not also training in grapling / wrestling / submission, he is also not fully preparing.
> If a full contact fighter has no experience with jiu-jitsu style fighting, then it all depends on who can dictate the distance.
> Btw, youtube has a large collection of the gracie fights to prove this point. search for 'gracie vs kungfu' or 'gracie vs xxx'


 There's the confusion........Randori IS full contact impact......we're not just talking about stand up striking.  We're talking about slamming and being slammed to the mat, choking and being choked, etc.  Randori is to Judo what full contact sparring is to boxing and muay thai.



Bruno@MT said:


> I agree with the 5 finger floating palm remark.
> In ninpo we also learn about the location of pressure points etc. But if your basic skills are not up to snuff, they that knowledge won't do you any good. On the other hand, if you spend years and years on the basics, then the more exotic stuff can give you an edge. You can't take shortcuts though.


 True, but you learn how to fire that basic shot under pressure by having someone firing punches at your head.  That's why boxers are the MASTERS of the basics.......most boxers learn 6 basic punches....8 if you count overhand right and overhand left.  Many only use 4 different types of punches in a given fight.  But they have mastered them through repetation, and HONED their skill under hard contact sparring.  Boxers learn how to stay cool under pressure by training under pressure, and they learn to fire off their arsenal in situations where someone else is returning fire.


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## Bruno@MT (Mar 12, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> Ah, but again the Gracies train like they fight........hard sparring, choking and throwing on arm bars at full power, tapping each other out, and even choking each other out. Hard contact, repeated over and over again until training is as much like fighting as can possibly be done.


 
Just a minor point of clarification: in randori you don't put on arm bars and wrist locks at full power. If a lock is executed properly and at full power, the elbow snaps. So do wrists and fingers (which snap like a twig).

Randori relies on the person being subjected to the lock admitting that the lock is set, and tapping out accordingly without the lock being applied full power. Only then can you spar using locks while preventing permanent injury.
If you do put on locks full power, you'll end up injuring sparring partners regularly.


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## bowser666 (Mar 12, 2009)

You are kind of contradicting yourself in your posts Sgt. Mac.  You say you have no problem with people who train for the art, and for health reasons, yet you make some snide comments in regard to people wanting to wear a colorful costume and basically "play at being tough" ?  That is quite pompous on your part. Worry about the reasons you are training and let others worry about theirs. I kind of found that a bit arrogant to be honest.


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 13, 2009)

bowser666 said:


> You are kind of contradicting yourself in your posts Sgt. Mac.  You say you have no problem with people who train for the art, and for health reasons, yet you make some snide comments in regard to people wanting to wear a colorful costume and basically "play at being tough" ?  That is quite pompous on your part. Worry about the reasons you are training and let others worry about theirs. I kind of found that a bit arrogant to be honest.


 No contradiction. What I SAID was that anyone can train for whatever reason you want....and I respect any reason anyone wants to train in anything, PROVIDING they are honest about the end results of that training.

But one should not pretend that ALL ways are an equal means to the same end.  Specifically, the notion that one can NEVER make contact in their training, and still consider themselves equally prepared to deal with violence.  

I respect all arts, for what they are.  And they all serve a different purpose.  Where I have a disagreement, though, is the idea that all arts are a different path to the same end.  Some arts are useful for spiritual enlightenment, physical development and some measure of self-defense.  Others are minimal on spiritual enlightenment, more on physical development and far more on self-defense.  The honesty comes in admitting that you cannot be all things to all purposes.  And there is only so far one can prepare for a physical confrontation without hard contact.

If that sounded more arrogant than I intended, my apologies.  I tend to be blunt, and many confuse that with arrogance.  I'll tone down the bluntness.


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 13, 2009)

Bruno@MT said:


> Just a minor point of clarification: in randori you don't put on arm bars and wrist locks at full power. If a lock is executed properly and at full power, the elbow snaps. So do wrists and fingers (which snap like a twig).
> 
> Randori relies on the person being subjected to the lock admitting that the lock is set, and tapping out accordingly without the lock being applied full power. Only then can you spar using locks while preventing permanent injury.
> If you do put on locks full power, you'll end up injuring sparring partners regularly.


  No clarification needed. The person putting the hold on puts it on in randori as he would in a real world application, it is up to the person being submitted to tap out before he is injured.  All techniques are done at real speed, full power.....you just stop when the other guy has had enough.

Randori IS full contact sparring.


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## Bruno@MT (Mar 13, 2009)

No it isn't. because if you put on an arm bar or wrist lock at full speed AND full power, then the joint snaps instantly. There wouldn't be any time to tap out. To prevent injury the loser would have to tap out before there even is a lock.
So the attacker puts the lock on at full speed, but stops before the breaking point -> no full power. Otherwise they leave behind a trail of permanently injured sparring partners.

If you still think different, we have to agree to disagree.


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 13, 2009)

Bruno@MT said:


> No it isn't. because if you put on an arm bar or wrist lock at full speed AND full power, then the joint snaps instantly. There wouldn't be any time to tap out. To prevent injury the loser would have to tap out before there even is a lock.
> So the attacker puts the lock on at full speed, but stops before the breaking point -> no full power. Otherwise they leave behind a trail of permanently injured sparring partners.
> 
> If you still think different, we have to agree to disagree.


 If that were true, every submission in MMA would result in broken arm, elbow, leg or knee.....let me check....NOPE!   Generally the only time someone gets their arm broken or elbow broken even in MMA fights is if they refuse to submit.  

Perhaps you're confusing putting a submission on a cooperating training partner, versus attempting one FULL power against an uncooperative fully resisting training partner.......again, illustrating the confusion about full contact sparring.   This isn't one person playing uke and the other person playing tori, in that kind of designated attack/receiver scenario one would get injured.....that that's not sparring or randori where there is no designated attacker or receiver, where both are jockeying for a position of advantage.

The assumption you're making is that ATTEMPTING to put the armbar on full power (as I said) is the same as slapping it on full power, against an unresisting partner (uke)....and that illustrates the difference between applying techniques against a cooperative partner and an uncooperative one....and that makes my point PERFECTLY CLEAR!

Anyone who spars in grappling full power and full contact knows that you attempt to put your technique on at full power, and your opponent resists it at full power.  He isn't dummying for you, letting you slap it on him to full extension, because that's not how it works in the real world.  If you slip a submission in, you've worked it in under his radar....and if he's at the level of proficiency he should be for such sparring, he KNOWS a moment before complete lockout that the technique is sunk in deep and he's not getting out and he taps.  The key to avoiding injury is awareness of those moments, NOT in half-measure technique demonstration.

This is a prime example of why folks NEED to spar full contact if they expect to separate theory from reality......so they don't get THEORY confused with REALITY!  It's the same reason many non-contact folks think that their techniques are TOO deadly to spar with.



Here, here's quite a few chokes, armbars and other assorted submissions at full speed.....with nary a broken limb or fatality in sight.


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## Bruno@MT (Mar 13, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> Anyone who spars in grappling full power and full contact knows that you attempt to put your technique on at full power, and your opponent resists it at full power. This is a prime example of why folks NEED to spar full contact if they expect to separate theory from reality......so they don't get THEORY confused with REALITY! It's the same reason many non-contact folks think that their techniques are TOO deadly to spar with.


 
If you manage to put on a lock under the radar before the opponent has the time to react, he is screwed.

How many times do you have an official fight? say 1 hundred times.
But you spar a lot more. So even if the odds are low, it's still going to happen. Let's take Bas Rutten as an example. If you look at Bas's fights, you will find instances where he seriously injured his opponent. He had 40 ish MMA type fights, resulting in a couple of nasty injuries for his opponents. Among the coupld of fights I saw, there was 1 shin broken because of a leg lock, and 1 broken liver.

So if he sparred like that against his sparring partner a hundred times, he would have gone through at least 5 sparring partners.

Also, MMA rules forbid small joint locks. With knees and elbows your argument has merit, on the assumption that you have the time to resist. But on small joints like fingers, it is no longer true. If I manage to grab hold of a finger, I can break it, and no amount of resisting is going to help.

EDIT:
Btw, I am definitely not part of the 'too deadly' crowd, but some things are too deadly to use in competition
what about eye gouging, biting, kicks to the groin, crusing the larynx, or elbows to the head or body, and all the other techniques that you'd use in a 'real' fight?
You can't have a competation (or spar) in a system that allows all this without ending up with lots of permanently injured people. I saw a cage fight under 'no rules' rules, and before the towel was in the ring, the thai fighter broke the boxer's knee, eyesocket, and the ribs in his back. It was a bloody affair, and the boxer's fighting career was over.

MMA rules have evolved to allow all out fighting and minimizing risk. But as e.g Bas has shown, you can still seriously damage teh person you are fighting with. So unless 5% of all sparring fights end with such injury, you are not sparring like you fight.

EDIT2:
As for not sparring / fighting. I sparred 2 times per week for 3,5 years (jiu-jitsu). And in all those years, I ended up hurting but not injuring my sparring partners. When I put on alock, I stopped at the point where it really hurt, but before doing real damage. That is controlled sparring. Full power, full speed, but with enough control to stop in time.
I could have broken those joints, but that would have changed only the realism of the outcome. Not of the fight itself.


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 13, 2009)

Bruno@MT said:


> If you manage to put on a lock under the radar before the opponent has the time to react, he is screwed.


 That's why sparring isn't for everyone.....you should know what you're doing before you engage in it.  



Bruno@MT said:


> How many times do you have an official fight? say 1 hundred times.
> But you spar a lot more. So even if the odds are low, it's still going to happen. If you look at Bas Rutten's fights (the only MMA fighter of which I've seen more than a couple of fights), you will find instances where he seriously injured his opponent. He had 40 ish MMA fights, resulting in a couple of nasty injuries for his opponents.


 Those injuries are the result of trying not to be submitted....that desire not to submit is where the injuries come from.  You don't want to submit, then they will put it on harder.  

That happens in sparring, but it's almost always the fault of the person to who is on the receiving end of the technique resisting when they should have been tapping.  Injury is a risk of full contact sparring.....if it were easy, everyone would do it. 



Bruno@MT said:


> So if he sparred like that against his sparring partner a hundred times, he would have gone through at least 5 sparring partners.


 Again, those injuries almost always happen in competition NOT because someone is throwing the technique on harder, but because there is more incentive to attempt to slip the technique, rather than fight through it, resulting in folks refusing to tap in techniques that they would tap to when sparring.

The techniques ARE attempted at full power against a resisting opponent, exactly as I have said, who is attempting to do the same thing.  But the difference in sparring is that there is little incentive to risk injury to avoid being submitted, so we tap soon enough to avoid injury.



Bruno@MT said:


> Also, MMA rules forbid small joint locks. With knees and elbows your argument has merit, on the assumption that you have the time to resist.
> But on small joints like fingers, it is no longer true. If I manage to grab hold of a giner, I can break it, and no amount of resisting is going to help.


 Small joint locks are a bit of a switch of topics.....the topic we were discussing was the fact that in Judo and BJJ we randori at full power, not small joint locks versus large joint locks.


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## Bruno@MT (Mar 13, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> Small joint locks are a bit of a switch of topics.....the topic we were discussing was the fact that in Judo and BJJ we randori at full power, not small joint locks versus large joint locks.


 
Sort of. But not entirely.
To be honest, I have no idea if BJJ covers those techniques or not.

We had to learn small joint locks for grading. By requiring control, we could use those in randori, whereas it would not be possible with full contact sparring. And this way, we had more experience with those techniques than we would have if we'd have been restricted from using them because of the contact level.

The reason I pointed out sjl is that if you learn and spar a system that is broader, and not based on competition rules, there there will be some things that can't be fought full contact.


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 13, 2009)

Bruno@MT said:


> Sort of. But not entirely.
> To be honest, I have no idea if BJJ covers those techniques or not.
> 
> We had to learn small joint locks for grading. By requiring control, we could use those in randori, whereas it would not be possible with full contact sparring. And this way, we had more experience with those techniques than we would have if we'd have been restricted from using them because of the contact level.
> ...


 It's true that there are some techniques you cannot practice in full contact sparring......eye gouges for example.  But that's not an argument against full contact sparring.  

The reality is if one COULD find a way to practice those techniques against a violently resisting opponent, that would be superior to how they are currently practiced.  We are just restricted by practical limitations.

Specific techniques aside, not hitting and getting hit, choking and getting choked by another human being, who is pushing the situation as close to a real conflict as possible, puts one at a disadvantage if one's goal is to prepare for a real conflict.  

Again, as I pointed out, it's like practicing full contact football......but never making full contact in practice.  

Boxers are such good punchers, and so good under pressure, because they spar and learn how to take a punch.  Punching a boxer doesn't cause him to lose his mind like it does most folks, because he's been punched, many, many, many times.  He learns how to deal with it, he learns that what didn't knock him unconscious doesn't stop him.

My issue isn't the techniques of many arts......but can many of it's practioners perform those techniques after getting punched in the head.........or as Mike Tyson used to say....'EVERYONE HAS A PLAN UNTIL THEY GET PUNCHED IN THE NOSE!'


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## Skpotamus (Mar 13, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> Again, those injuries almost always happen in competition NOT because someone is throwing the technique on harder, but because there is more incentive to attempt to slip the technique, rather than fight through it, resulting in folks refusing to tap in techniques that they would tap to when sparring.
> 
> The techniques ARE attempted at full power against a resisting opponent, exactly as I have said, who is attempting to do the same thing. But the difference in sparring is that there is little incentive to risk injury to avoid being submitted, so we tap soon enough to avoid injury.
> quote]
> ...


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## Bruno@MT (Mar 13, 2009)

Skpotamus said:


> That's just not true. People go into the control position for submissions quickly, but then they pretty much stop increasing force, and apply it much more slowly to not injure people (at least, most people do). When you go into pretty much any joint lock full speed, you can dislocate the joint or break it before the other person even feels the tension in the joint.
> 
> <_lots of examples removed_>


 
Thanks for providing the vids (and your personal story) and proving my point. This is exactly what I was trying to explain.


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## just2kicku (Mar 13, 2009)

in our art of Kajukenbo, we do practice locks and throws. But I think the point is, that there is point where you can't go all out. When we practice techniques, I want to see hard contact. When we spar and you go for a groin kick, we want to hear the sound of the cup. Yes sometimes people cry, but they keep coming back.

It does no good to break something on one of the students, the only thing that desensitizes them to are the MA's. Punching, kicking, blocking and take downs are done at full speed and hard contact.

If you're gonna train to fight, you've got to be hit and give blows HARD. I tell the students if they get hit, when it's their turn, it's payback.


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## Bruno@MT (Mar 13, 2009)

just2kicku said:


> If you're gonna train to fight, you've got to be hit and give blows HARD. I tell the students if they get hit, when it's their turn, it's payback.


 
I'd change that to
_If you're gonna train to *be a* fight*er*, you've got to be hit and give blows HARD. _

Punching an kicking were medium contact where I trained jiu-jitsu. Throwing, take down, wrestling was all hard, but with enough control not to break.

In those 3,5 years, I learned how to fight. I readily admit to being less prepared to face an experienced fighter than you, and I was definitely not a hardened fighter like you. But I was infinitely more prepared for a confrontation than someone who spent 3,5 years on the couch.

So it is not a black and white scale. It is, however, imporant to be honest about this to yourself about where you are on the scale.


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 14, 2009)

Skpotamus said:


> sgtmac_46 said:
> 
> 
> > Again, those injuries almost always happen in competition NOT because someone is throwing the technique on harder, but because there is more incentive to attempt to slip the technique, rather than fight through it, resulting in folks refusing to tap in techniques that they would tap to when sparring.
> ...


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 14, 2009)

Bruno@MT said:


> It is, however, imporant to be honest about this to yourself about where you are on the scale.


 Which is the point i've been trying to make the entire time, while we've been splitting hairs.


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## AoCAdam (Mar 17, 2009)

What an awesome and well thought out post! I think that so many people go out of their way to avoid contact that they have a mental block against it. When I did Muay Thai in high school my coach would slowly increase our contact by light sparring drills until we became comfortable with getting hit. He had to convince myself and many of the students that we would not get seriously injured or die by getting a jab in the face or kicked in the leg. It hurt for a little while but my fellow students and me included got "conditioned" to the point we were no longer scared of getting hit. Which allowed us to do full sparring which is so much fun.


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## Twin Fist (Mar 17, 2009)

hmmm

all those vids?

well, what to say.....

well, for one thing this thread has strayed off topic pretty badly


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## AJPerry (Apr 11, 2009)

Great thread Thesemindz

I think you stated the transition from light cntact to heavy in great steps.

My art is very contact heavy and we do find new students are nervous about starting when they come along and watch the higher belts in general training.

Kids are so much easier as they can be taught to lose any fears they have very quickly.

We started the kids off with simple contact games and when we got them through to full sparring they love it, whether they are standing up or getting taken to the ground they are having a great time and fighting hard.  I have released a book of games for Instructors that teach kids, the link is below if anyone is looking for more ideas to add to their lessons.

Adults are actually harder because of the years of fear or the inflated ego.  I think your steps for adults are excellent.  Any art that lacks contact also lacks reality.


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