# Nerve Strikes



## MJS (Feb 5, 2008)

While surfing the web, I came across this article and thought I'd sahre it, especially seeing that it features our very own Doc Chapel!!!
http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/142

Obviously this is a big part of SL4. Just curious as to who else out there in the Kenpo world, focuses on this part of the art.  Do you feel that its an important aspect?  

Looking forward to your replies! 

Mike


----------



## pad256 (Feb 5, 2008)

My instructor informs his students on where nerve bundles are and some of the affects when struck but this article from black belt mag was a good read, I'll inquire about this with him get his thoughts and investigate a little further.

I have explored, but only on the surface of Dim Mak, how different from DIM MAK is SL4?

Paul


----------



## KempoGuy06 (Feb 5, 2008)

looks like a very good read. Ill have to ask my instructor if there are any.

Does anyone know if there are nerve strikes in SKK?

B


----------



## LawDog (Feb 5, 2008)

Nerve / pressure point attacks were not a major factor within the "old SKK" systems. Many of us who live within an area of four season dropped most of this type of training. During the colder seasons the heavier outer clothing that is worn can cancel the effects of a nerve / pressure point attack. 
Many of us instead turned to training that would increase the power of our strikes. These more powerful strikes could then be used against someone who was wearing heavier outer clothing.
Other area's that were also added to many SKK systems were a stronger judo / throwing base and better ground work.
Adapt to were you dwell.
:enguard:


----------



## KempoGuy06 (Feb 6, 2008)

LawDog said:


> Nerve / pressure point attacks were not a major factor within the "old SKK" systems. Many of us who live within an area of four season dropped most of this type of training. During the colder seasons the heavier outer clothing that is worn can cancel the effects of a nerve / pressure point attack.
> Many of us instead turned to training that would increase the power of our strikes. These more powerful strikes could then be used against someone who was wearing heavier outer clothing.
> Other area's that were also added to many SKK systems were a stronger judo / throwing base and better ground work.
> Adapt to were you dwell.
> :enguard:


Thanks!

I asked my instructor last night about it and he told me that there are some in the higher ranks. 

B


----------



## kaizasosei (Feb 6, 2008)

how's this?:

place your thumb at center of mouth of target and then slide your thumb under their upperlip(so they cannot bite) and then press the facial nerve that runs along under the cheek close to the noseflap/inside of mouth..




j


----------



## bigfootsquatch (Feb 6, 2008)

LawDog said:


> Nerve / pressure point attacks were not a major factor within the "old SKK" systems. Many of us who live within an area of four season dropped most of this type of training. During the colder seasons the heavier outer clothing that is worn can cancel the effects of a nerve / pressure point attack.
> Many of us instead turned to training that would increase the power of our strikes. These more powerful strikes could then be used against someone who was wearing heavier outer clothing.
> Other area's that were also added to many SKK systems were a stronger judo / throwing base and better ground work.
> Adapt to were you dwell.
> :enguard:


 
I agree with this. IMO, it would be better to develop the more powerful strikes and throws rather than relying on openings and angles to strike nerve points, BUT they can be  very damaging when struck no doubt!


----------



## KempoGuy06 (Feb 6, 2008)

bigfootsquatch said:


> I agree with this. IMO, it would be better to develop the more powerful strikes and throws rather than relying on openings and angles to strike nerve points, BUT they can be  very damaging when struck no doubt!


I agree to but I like the idea of have both weapons in my arsenal. Only good things could come from learning both, as a martial artist, Right?

B


----------



## DavidCC (Feb 6, 2008)

My SKK teacher is also certified as a Level 2 Instructor in Kyusho.  

We've found that most if not all fo the SKK techniques that we do (which  are somewhat different than most of the written techs I have seen) already strike pretty close to the targets used in Kyusho.  So it takes only small adjustments to use them.

In fact if you are near Omaha this weekend (2/16/8) we are having Kyusho class...

-David


----------



## Doc (Feb 6, 2008)

My daughter hates that picture of her training.


----------



## IWishToLearn (Feb 6, 2008)

Killer avatar Doc! Edmund?


----------



## Doc (Feb 6, 2008)

IWishToLearn said:


> Killer avatar Doc! Edmund?



Of course. Didn't see it coming, cause I never gave it a thought. He made three. Home schoolers voted on them and they chose that one.


----------



## IWishToLearn (Feb 6, 2008)

Can we see the others too?


----------



## Doc (Feb 6, 2008)

IWishToLearn said:


> Can we see the others too?



Yes and no. One was with double bars, and that was trashed by me immediately.


----------



## IWishToLearn (Feb 7, 2008)

Understandably so.


----------



## MJS (Feb 7, 2008)

Personally, I think that its a worthwhile area to study.  While I'm far from an expert, there have been many times, without really thinking about it, that I've done a technique and struck a point, during my block or a strike.  Reading the article, this is covered much more in depth with Docs material. 

I think they're also a good less lethal alternative.  If you can target a nerve and deaden the arm, more along the lines of pain compliance, that may be a better option compared to breaking someones nose or doing something where the damage will be more visable and possibly more severe.


----------



## LawDog (Feb 7, 2008)

It is my opinon that neve attacks are better suited when a person has only one hand free. Example,
*during an escape,
*weapons suppression,
*ground suppression and so on.
During a stand up free fight an open offensive doorway will change, (location / range), very rapidly. The required approach doorways for nerve attacks are fairly narrow and this can make the nerve point harder to hit during a free fight. Even the type of impact and the angle of impact are very important. 
During a free fight most fighter, after receiving a few hard blows, are highly charged and can fend off pain easily.
Again this is just my experience and opinon talking.


----------



## Carol (Feb 7, 2008)

Who says you have to do nerve strikes with your *hand*?


----------



## LawDog (Feb 7, 2008)

Interesting, gives one a few thoughts.
:EG:


----------



## Doc (Feb 7, 2008)

LawDog said:


> It is my opinon that neve attacks are better suited when a person has only one hand free. Example,
> *during an escape,
> *weapons suppression,
> *ground suppression and so on.
> ...



That is a misconception.


----------



## Doc (Feb 7, 2008)

MJS said:


> Personally, I think that its a worthwhile area to study.  While I'm far from an expert, there have been many times, without really thinking about it, that I've done a technique and struck a point, during my block or a strike.  Reading the article, this is covered much more in depth with Docs material.


My perspective, but definitely not my material sir. All props go to my teacher.


> I think they're also a good less lethal alternative.  If you can target a nerve and deaden the arm, more along the lines of pain compliance, that may be a better option compared to breaking someones nose or doing something where the damage will be more visable and possibly more severe.


Another misconception is nerve applications and "pain compliance." Are there applications that hurt? Absolutely, but that is not the goal of all nerve applications in the perspective I was taught. Once again that is the Okinawan/Japanese interpretation. 

According to Mr. Parker, "Any application that is wholly dependent on pain to be functional is doomed to failure." He often spoke of manipulation arts that do this, and why their effectiveness is limited in real applications that must overcome resolve, natural and artificial chemical induced immunity, and natural unusually high pain thresholds. Most people have various levels of pain thresholds, making it virtually impossible to know  and execute the appropriate level of "pain" to force simple physical "compliance."

Most misunderstand the "study" of nerve strikes. I was taught to train body mechanics and proper targeting with the appropriate weapon matching the body posture. When this is done, the "pinpoint strike" is not as essential in study. This was Parker's method, and I assume it was Ark Wong's as well, as Parker translated, expanded, and extrapolated material for me I didn't understand. 

The Chinese created and therefore understood the method that "excited and activated" particular nerves to create physical effects that had an exponential effect on subsequent strikes. These activations do not require pain, nor is pain the goal, even though many of them do "hurt" in most people. I have a student who virtually feels no pain. He has gone to the dentist and endured 6 hours of drilling, and dental work and can fall asleep in the chair. The techniques have the same effect on him as everyone else, even though he doesn't feel any pain. He still experiences the "Physical & Mental Disassociation," (P.M.D.) knockouts like all the other students.

It is the Okinawan/Japanese interpretation that requires this extreme precise targeting and opted for the extreme "power" perspective in lieu of specific knowledge of martial posture execution in their training and study. The Chinese Methodology, is a much more difficult area of knowledge to acquire, and traditionally has been generally less accessible.

My own students don't study nerves, they study proper execution, and methods of manipulations creating the posture for the strikes they intend to use. The nerve application becomes a vicarious benefit to proper execution, and the techniques are functional regardless of "nerve efficiency." The more mechanically skilled and knowledgeable they become, the more the degree of "nerve effectiveness" rises without the necessity of concentrating on that aspect. While they may be hard pressed to name all of the nerves they use, they understand the body mechanics, the posture, and the methods necessary to be effective, and that's all the matters. If it also happens to hurt, well that's all good to.


----------



## LawDog (Feb 7, 2008)

Doc,
My comments are not a misconception like you have stated. My past street experience, including working in a county gang unit, has taught me and many other street officers and contact fighters that nerve attacks are very difficult to apply during an all out street type of fight.
I have seen many try to apply nerve attacks against a kickboxer, they all were knocked to the ground.
I do agree that nerve attacks work and do have a place in any fighting arts. I do not agree with the notion that they should be a primary part of a fighting art but instead they should be a secondary part of a fighting art.


----------



## Doc (Feb 7, 2008)

LawDog said:


> Doc,
> My comments are not a misconception like you have stated.


Actually sir, based on your initial statement, it is a misconception. However it obviously is true for you in your limited perspective.


> My past street experience, including working in a county gang unit, has taught me and many other street officers and contact fighters that nerve attacks are very difficult to apply during an all out street type of fight.
> I have seen many try to apply nerve attacks against a kickboxer, they all were knocked to the ground.


Your experiences and observations are limited by your perspective which is limited by you knowledge of applications, regardless of the topic. I've seen and taught veteran officers and agents with vast experience as yours. When I've added a little bit of knowledge to their experience, the circumstances and results have taken a significant positive change, and what was once a fact in their experience changed. Experience matters. Knowledge plus experience matters a lot more. 

The assumption that a person gains experience because he is forced to bang on a piano everyday, and should ultimately learn how to play is ludicrous and can reach a conclusion of how to play the piano. You're correct, you don't know how to play, and until you take lessons your point of view will always be from the perspective of the unknowledgeable. The knowledge of "how" must be added to create Chopin. 

One of my many students was a Captain in the Marine Corp, and worked Naval Intel before going to work in the trenches for a federal three lettered agency. He did all of that before he met me. He had vast experience in taking down drug houses, fighting, and killing. His understanding of his capability changed when he was taught "how" to do things. He's now one of the few third blacks under me, and probably would beg to differ with you as I do.

I see this attitude all the time. The "I've been doing this for years and I know what works." attitude. Well that's true, they know what works for them within their knowledge. Without education, perspective are always limited, experiences or not.

*"When the only tool you have in your toolbox is a hammer, than the solution to every problem looks like a nail." - Ed Parker*


> I do agree that nerve attacks work and do have a place in any fighting arts.


I don't.


> I do not agree with the notion that they should be a primary part of a fighting art but instead they should be a secondary part of a fighting art.


Well my teaching is more holistic. Everything is primary. How you choose to teach it, is another matter. If you make it secondary, it will always be minor in the execution. If you teach and emphasize correctly, all aspects of mechanisms available will rise to prominence in application. None are supposed to be used exclusive of others. That why they have "whole systems" versus "partial arts."


----------



## Doc (Feb 7, 2008)

Carol Kaur said:


> Who says you have to do nerve strikes with your *hand*?



Duh! Strikes come from a lot of places other than the hands. Anyone "experienced" knows that. Sometime people tell on themselves. 

"Giants Rule."


----------



## Carol (Feb 7, 2008)

Doc said:


> Duh! Strikes come from a lot of places other than the hands. Anyone "experienced" knows that. Sometime people tell on themselves.



We even do nerve strikes in the cold frozen north when people are wearing heavy coats 




> "Giants Rule."



Oh...go ahead....rub it in *sir*...

Have you been talking to my teacher ????  He's a Giants fan too


----------



## Doc (Feb 8, 2008)

Carol Kaur said:


> We even do nerve strikes in the cold frozen north when people are wearing heavy coats
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Actually, I'm not a "Giants Fan."

My favorite team is "The Raiders," and whoever the Patriots are playing.


----------



## tshadowchaser (Feb 8, 2008)

> We even do nerve strikes in the cold frozen north when people are wearing heavy coats


YEP

As with any technique nerve strikes have a place and a time just as a good kick to ther groin has ( oops sorry tha involves nerve endings also)

This is a Kenpo section so I will not say much but one must somewhere along the line gain the knowledge of what nerve clusters affect wha  parts of the body and how additional strikes can gain from or defuse the first strike. 
As for the street some folks are so "jacked up" in a street fight the feel next to nothing till the next day there for trying to take the arm out with a strike may not work but a basic strike under the jaw may cause a desired affect


----------



## LawDog (Feb 8, 2008)

Doc,
I understand what you are saying but I still disagree. Actual applications done during live situations by many martial artists will usually show a truth.
In Japan if a sword technique worked well within a dojo setting but failed in combat the technique would be either corrected or discarded.
I too have traveled all across the country and Europe teaching law enforcement, this also includes a group of Marines,( Kansas area) and a group of Army combat M.P.'s . The Marines have their own martial arts system and they have taught this system to me. There were no nerve attacks in this system.
Doc, you have your beliefs backed by your vast dojo teaching experience, and I do respect that. I have my belief backed by my street experience combined with my interaction with numours other LEO's and the military.
I do however have a different view point about your little pot shots.
Ex.
*limited for you in your limited prospective - assumption by you, you don't know me,
*your correct, you don't know how to play, I said this?
*I know this works attitude, I did not realize that I had an attitude. Stating experience is not an attitude it is simply used as to show how and where I have developed my point of view.
Doc, you are truley a master of the english language so I know that your choice of words were placed to discredit and not for an exchange of points of view.
I was trained in interrigation and understand how placement of key words came undermind the person as well as his ideas.
In the future lets debate an  idea or thought and leave the person out of the debate.


----------



## Carol (Feb 8, 2008)

Doc said:


> Actually, I'm not a "Giants Fan."
> 
> My favorite team is "The Raiders," and whoever the Patriots are playing.



Yeah, I remember   irate:

Still mad about the tuck rule, eh sir?


----------



## still learning (Feb 8, 2008)

Hello, One day the real information on so call "nerve strikes" will come out.

Most times people think it is a secret techniques or secret places to strike?

Yes there is certain areas on the body striking there gives a different reaction.

What happens to all those MMA fights? ..street fights...don;t tell me they never hit those spots?  ....and very little reactions?

If there was so call Nerve strikes than can end confrontations?  ....All of the military...police.. and martial artist would know about this...and USE IT TOO!    ....there are techniques we can NOW use on certain body parts than can be consider NERVE strikes or pressure points that "hurts like hell".   ...so is getting hit by kick or punch too!  


The Human body has nerves all over....tried cut your self/ poke a knife on any part of the body?    ...or have someone pinch you? ...anyplace? ....it will most likely hurt?

Grappling on the ground? ...pinching works for escaping too!  My wife likes to pinch my ears? ....ow...we!  Great technique to use when up close too!

There is NO secrets....there is better places to strike on the human body that will give more reactions than other places....or put pressure points on them parts?   especially the "EYE BALLS".  the hands has lots of places you put pressure on will hurt you too!

The truth is out there? ...find it...if it was real and usuable? ...don't you think it would be everyday information?  This is the modern age of information.....if magic works...we all would be using it?

Aloha


----------



## Doc (Feb 8, 2008)

still learning said:


> Hello, One day the real information on so call "nerve strikes" will come out.
> 
> Most times people think it is a secret techniques or secret places to strike?
> 
> ...



Absolutely brilliant.


----------



## Doc (Feb 8, 2008)

Carol Kaur said:


> Yeah, I remember   irate:
> 
> Still mad about the tuck rule, eh sir?



The Raider Nation has a long memory. Now as soon as Al Davis is no longer with us .....


----------



## Doc (Feb 8, 2008)

LawDog said:


> Doc,
> I understand what you are saying but I still disagree. Actual applications done during live situations by many martial artists will usually show a truth.
> In Japan if a sword technique worked well within a dojo setting but failed in combat the technique would be either corrected or discarded.
> I too have traveled all across the country and Europe teaching law enforcement, this also includes a group of Marines,( Kansas area) and a group of Army combat M.P.'s . The Marines have their own martial arts system and they have taught this system to me. There were no nerve attacks in this system.
> ...



You're allowed to disagree sir but your comments are, at a minimum, a misconception if others have a different results. You seemed to have taken this personally. Clearly if there are people that have as much experience as you, who have a consistent positive results when you do not, than on some level you are wrong.

There is nothing I alluded to in my statements that wasn't generated by your own comments. You're right I don't know you, but apparently I know something you don't know, based on information provided by you.

I also emphasized the importance of education, or a lack thereof, of a subject having an impact on ones experience. You seemed to make a case for your "experience," but somehow omitted the particulars regarding your knowledge of nerve applications, as if your experience somehow is a substitute for knowledge. Having experience is a good thing, but as previously stated, "banging on a piano for twenty years" will not give you the knowledge of how to play it, and colors your perception of a pianos worth.

As far as the "attitude" comment; I brought a positive perspective to the application and use of nerve strikes. I have always found that when you bring the positive, and others simply say, "that won't work." without ever asking any questions, the subject is a closed book to them. That is the attitude you brought. Flat, forget it, it won't work, I tried it, and its dead on arrival. No discussion, no questions of what others might do different. Even an unusual strange comment about "one handed" use. No problem for me.

I reiterate, I've seen this "attitude" for years from veteran martial artists, and street cops alike. Somehow they think their "experience" trumps the "knowledge plus experience" of others.

Mr. Parker said, "A mind is like a parachute, it only works when it is open." Clearly, yours is closed on the subject. The good news is, for me and all the street cops and federal agents I have given knowledge to, your position, attitude, and knowledge, doesn't affect our success at all. 

I'm not retired yet, maybe it is good you are. Once learning stops, than we become a danger to ourselves and our fellow officers, and make lousy teachers. That's not a crack, just an observation based on your attitude and comments, and you wouldn't be the first "veteran cop" I've encountered that let their own attitude over-ride an opportunity to improve their knowledge of what they do.

Regardless, I wish you well and leave you to your perspective.


----------



## Carol (Feb 8, 2008)

Doc said:


> The Raider Nation has a long memory. Now as soon as Al Davis is no longer with us .....



I'll keep the Pats gear at home and wear my Buffalo Bills cap when I can get my bad self out west.  Fair?


----------



## LawDog (Feb 8, 2008)

Doc wrote - 
Regardless, I wish you well and leave you to your perspective.[/quote]
 My reply -
Agreed, time to move on to a more positive.


----------



## Doc (Feb 8, 2008)

Carol Kaur said:


> I'll keep the Pats gear at home and wear my Buffalo Bills cap when I can get my bad self out west.  Fair?



The Raider Nation has no quarrel with the Buffalo Bills.


----------



## Carol (Feb 8, 2008)

Doc said:


> The Raider Nation has no quarrel with the Buffalo Bills.



Sweet!


----------



## Doc (Feb 8, 2008)

Carol Kaur said:


> Sweet!



However when you don't return phone calls ...


----------



## Carol (Feb 8, 2008)

Doc said:


> However when you don't return phone calls ...



I never got a message that you called...?


----------



## marlon (Feb 12, 2008)

Doc said:


> Actually, I'm not a "Giants Fan."
> 
> My favorite team is "The Raiders," and whoever the Patriots are playing.


 

Giants fan here!!  Shocked and amazed fan but one nonetheless

marlon


----------

