# Does Modern Arnis Lose Something By Not Emphasizing The Blade As Much?



## Guro Harold (Apr 11, 2010)

I mentioned in this thread that in the first generation Modern Arnis videos of the late GM Remy A. Presas, that he demonstrated some of the Anyo stick forms with a bolo. Also, in those early videos and books (the Pink and Yellow books), there were more disarms that incorporated the bolo.

My question is that does Modern Arnis lose something by not emphasizing the blade as much as it once did?


----------



## MJS (Apr 14, 2010)

Guro Harold said:


> I mentioned in this thread that in the first generation Modern Arnis videos of the late GM Remy A. Presas, that he demonstrated some of the Anyo stick forms with a bolo. Also, in those early videos and books (the Pink and Yellow books), there were more disarms that incorporated the bolo.
> 
> My question is that does Modern Arnis lose something by not emphasizing the blade as much as it once did?


 
When you say "not emphasizing it as much" are you talking about going into more applications, other than whats already there, ie: espada y daga.  I was under the understanding that the Prof. did not want people to focus on the offensive use of the blade, but rather more defensive.  IMO though, it shouldn't take much for an experienced Modern Arnis student to figure out some offensive moves.


----------



## Guro Harold (Apr 19, 2010)

MJS said:


> When you say "not emphasizing it as much" are you talking about going into more applications, other than whats already there, ie: espada y daga. I was under the understanding that the Prof. did not want people to focus on the offensive use of the blade, but rather more defensive. IMO though, it shouldn't take much for an experienced Modern Arnis student to figure out some offensive moves.


*Please note* that the post below assume that metal or neoprene trainers are being used.

Actually the techniques that I was thinking of were shown in the Yellow and Pink books and on some of the videos were defensive in nature.

They were executed with blades.

The fact of the matter is that disarms are different with blades as compared to the stick. The practictioner has to be more mindful of body mechanics as well as body parts that could be affected as a result of executing a disarm against a blade.


----------



## DragonMind (Apr 19, 2010)

The problem as I see it is not that Modern Arnis is losing something as it was never really there for most people. My understanding is that Prof Presas deliberately de-emphasized the blade side for a number of reasons including defensive nature and training safety. I would imagine being in the US that legal liability was also in the back of his mind.

To get back to your topic, I think we now have many training tools available that Prof Presas did not have so the time is right to put the blade back into Modern Arnis. There are folks who are doing that: e.g. Tuhon Ray Dionaldo, GM Bram Frank, and others. But I would not stop at the blade. Modern Arnis is an art based on core principles that should hold up regardless of the weapon. Where is the instruction on use of other modern tools like a tactical flashlight, a handgun, collapsible baton, pepper spray, and flexible weapons (belt, purse strap, even a whip) to name a few. There are lessons for all of Modern Arnis in each of those tools. Much has been made of the fact that Modern Arnis is a complete art; let's now expand to the full range of tools.


----------



## Carol (Apr 19, 2010)

If it were up to me, I would like to see more emphasis on small blades in Modern Arnis.  That is not to say the Professor wasn't an amazing teacher, or that the system isn't fantastic, or that the stick knowledge isn't important.  For me it is a matter of being pragmatic: I am more likely to have a blade or a tactical flashlight with me than a twenty-something inch stick.


----------



## Guro Harold (Apr 19, 2010)

Carol said:


> If it were up to me, I would like to see more emphasis on small blades in Modern Arnis. That is not to say the Professor wasn't an amazing teacher, or that the system isn't fantastic, or that the stick knowledge isn't important. For me it is a matter of being pragmatic: I am more likely to have a blade or a tactical flashlight with me than a twenty-something inch stick.


Hi Carol,

The awesome thing is that the small blade and tactical flashlight can be adapted fairly simply into Modern Arnis.

An example is to incorporate them in the #5, #6, and #7 without give and take or they can be incorporated into Cinco Terros (The Five Strikes, which is the first 5 moves of the 12 strikes).

The 1 - 5, then 12 strike works well too. Finally, "Tapi-Tapi, One and Two" and Hubad are the next phase up because it can be used "de cadena".

Please note that the techniques above are based off of the "12 Attacks". 

Hock Hochheim has some cool knife techniques based on Banda Y Banda and Rompida for both the sak sak and pakal grip. It helps to show that to some degree, those striking styles start to blend together.

Take care,

Harold


----------



## Blindside (Apr 19, 2010)

Guro Harold said:


> *Please note* that the post below assume that metal or neoprene trainers are being used.
> 
> Actually the techniques that I was thinking of were shown in the Yellow and Pink books and on some of the videos were defensive in nature.
> 
> ...


 
You can't learn the defense without knowing the offense, or more precisely you can't learn the defense against methodologies of a trained attacker without learning the offense as well.  If the system is not set up for training offensive use of the blade, whatever the length, how will you learn the defense?


----------



## MJS (Apr 19, 2010)

Guro Harold said:


> *Please note* that the post below assume that metal or neoprene trainers are being used.
> 
> Actually the techniques that I was thinking of were shown in the Yellow and Pink books and on some of the videos were defensive in nature.
> 
> They were executed with blades.


 
I'll have to take another look at the pink book. 



> The fact of the matter is that disarms are different with blades as compared to the stick. The practictioner has to be more mindful of body mechanics as well as body parts that could be affected as a result of executing a disarm against a blade.


 
Absolutely!  IMO, I think once the higher levels are reached, we should be working with a training aid such as a shock knife or a live blade.  Of course, when working with the live blade, it'll need to be done with extreme caution, but it'll certainly make you more aware of doing the technique correctly.


----------



## MJS (Apr 19, 2010)

DragonMind said:


> The problem as I see it is not that Modern Arnis is losing something as it was never really there for most people. My understanding is that Prof Presas deliberately de-emphasized the blade side for a number of reasons including defensive nature and training safety. I would imagine being in the US that legal liability was also in the back of his mind.


 
Fortunately, there are some people that received this knowledge from the Prof., but don't teach it, out of respect for his wishes.  



> To get back to your topic, I think we now have many training tools available that Prof Presas did not have so the time is right to put the blade back into Modern Arnis. There are folks who are doing that: e.g. Tuhon Ray Dionaldo, GM Bram Frank, and others. But I would not stop at the blade. Modern Arnis is an art based on core principles that should hold up regardless of the weapon. Where is the instruction on use of other modern tools like a tactical flashlight, a handgun, collapsible baton, pepper spray, and flexible weapons (belt, purse strap, even a whip) to name a few. There are lessons for all of Modern Arnis in each of those tools. Much has been made of the fact that Modern Arnis is a complete art; let's now expand to the full range of tools.


 
IMO, I think the blade is very important.  If we took the time, next time we were out and about, take note of how many people have a knife clipped on their belt, in their pants pocket, etc.  A huge number of people carry blades, so this leads me to say that we'd stand a better chance of facing a blade than we would a gun.  

As for the other things you suggested...I agree, those are important to teach as well.


----------



## MJS (Apr 19, 2010)

Blindside said:


> You can't learn the defense without knowing the offense, or more precisely you can't learn the defense against methodologies of a trained attacker without learning the offense as well. If the system is not set up for training offensive use of the blade, whatever the length, how will you learn the defense?


 
QFT!!  Whats really interesting is if you look at PT, we see alot of offensive knife work.  I came across this clip a while ago.  This, IMO, is a perfect example of what we're talking about.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Apr 19, 2010)

DragonMind said:


> The problem as I see it is not that Modern Arnis is losing something as it was never really there for most people. My understanding is that Prof Presas deliberately de-emphasized the blade side for a number of reasons including defensive nature and training safety. I would imagine being in the US that legal liability was also in the back of his mind.
> 
> To get back to your topic, I think we now have many training tools available that Prof Presas did not have so the time is right to put the blade back into Modern Arnis. There are folks who are doing that: e.g. Tuhon Ray Dionaldo, GM Bram Frank, and others. But I would not stop at the blade. Modern Arnis is an art based on core principles that should hold up regardless of the weapon. Where is the instruction on use of other modern tools like a tactical flashlight, a handgun, collapsible baton, pepper spray, and flexible weapons (belt, purse strap, even a whip) to name a few. There are lessons for all of Modern Arnis in each of those tools. Much has been made of the fact that Modern Arnis is a complete art; let's now expand to the full range of tools.


 
Absolutely.  Take the principles and explore you may be very pleased with what you find!


----------



## Blindside (Apr 19, 2010)

MJS said:


> QFT!!  Whats really interesting is if you look at PT, we see alot of offensive knife work.  I came across this clip a while ago.  This, IMO, is a perfect example of what we're talking about.



Yup, and that only shows examples post contact, that doesn't show all the baits and setups to use armed against unarmed.


----------



## David43515 (Apr 20, 2010)

MJS said:


> Fortunately, there are some people that received this knowledge from the Prof., but don't teach it, out of respect for his wishes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
You`re right about being more likely to have to face a blade. The stats when I went through EMT training (years ago) said knife attacks occur in the US about four times more often than shootings.


----------



## Dan Anderson (Apr 20, 2010)

DragonMind said:


> The problem as I see it is not that Modern Arnis is losing something as it was never really there for most people. My understanding is that Prof Presas deliberately de-emphasized the blade side for a number of reasons including defensive nature and training safety. I would imagine being in the US that legal liability was also in the back of his mind.


A little history from an old buzzard.  RP witnessed a family or clan duel (a rumble) which the fighters had blades when he was a kid.  This turned him off to blade work.  Most MA practitioners in the USA got stick and empty hand. Players in the PI, however, do a lot more blade work.

There are a number of people who _say _they were taught blade work by him but from my viewpoint, most Modern Arnis players got their blade work from other sources or mimicked the stick work.  

As stated above, RP was very careful about liability issues as well as presentation of the art to the broadest possible range of public.  Hence, very little knife work.

Bram Frank is one of the only ones I personally know of who got the blade craft of Modern Arnis directly from RP.  I didn't nor was I really interested.  My interest in blade work came much later in my journey.

Time for dinner.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


----------



## chris arena (Apr 25, 2010)

From my perspective, it is very important to understand the blade from an offesive view and a defensive view. And, from a military vs civilian type of application. It is understandable the the professor was hesitant to teach the blade in a seminar setting. Especially in America. However, blade training is important and I have been lucky enough to have a skilled teacher in that area. But, in a civilian, defensive mode is where I draw the line. I am not interested in "taking the guy out", or slashing away at his extemities like I am giving a Ginsu knife commercial. In retrospect my "blade" might be the good quality (steel) ball point pin that is always with me, or the Travel Wrench that is always in my back pocket and, when working in a rough or suspicious neighborhood, the 18" Asp that I will pull out of the glove box and slip into my back pocket. Or, in case of a car jacker, the fixed blade that is shieved and always ready tucked alongside the passenger seat and tunnel of my work car. In short, I am an independent insurance investigator and damage appraiser and I work in the upper end and the ghetto, In mansions to crackhouses in Seattle - Tacoma Washington Cities and in rural areas of the Peninsula. I am not as strong as the young toughs, and as I get older, I certainly and not getting any stronger. We study Arnis as it is a weapons based system and to not at least honor the art, by respecting and carrying the tools that we can apply these hard learned skills......I have only been actually attacked once where I could not reason out of, or at least got out of the area and, I was able to end the situation without resorting to using the weapon. But it was comforting to know that it was there as a back up! In short, Modern Arnis has more than enough blade technique for the average civilain. It's just hidden away and only needs a little prodding by a skilled blade handler to bring it out! 

Another thing to think about is animal attacks! I have had, at this count, 5 animal attacks. 2 of them really scary!! One was a pit bull that I ran into while tracking a stolen vehicle in a back yard and another was a chow that rushed me while tracking another vehicle. Both of these attacks were in rural areas, and I was all alone! Now, In rural areas I always carry one of two weapons. One, (in the case of all but the first dog attack) is a Cold Steel Rattan cane that I have carried for years and can knock big dog straight off its feet. (By the way, regarding the first dog attack (I was in a junk yard and when leaving, I got bit in the ***)! (Pre-Arnis days)! the other rural tool is a 5' rattan 7/8 staff that I carry when I have to hike down a steep hill when required to inspect an off-road situation. Usually a LOG-Truck that left the road and has yet to be recovered. I have litterly used it to get back up a steep incline by passing it behind small trees and pulling my self up. In short, If you make your living on the streets (paved or dirt), you have got to realize that you are just one small person in a big world of unknown and a little leverage can make a big difference>


----------



## MJS (Apr 26, 2010)

Dan Anderson said:


> A little history from an old buzzard. RP witnessed a family or clan duel (a rumble) which the fighters had blades when he was a kid. This turned him off to blade work. Most MA practitioners in the USA got stick and empty hand. Players in the PI, however, do a lot more blade work.
> 
> There are a number of people who _say _they were taught blade work by him but from my viewpoint, most Modern Arnis players got their blade work from other sources or mimicked the stick work.
> 
> ...


 
I believe that Kelly Worden may be another.  As I said in an earlier post, an experienced Arnis student, should be able to figure things out.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Apr 26, 2010)

A lot of people in Modern Arnis have the blade component.  However, everyone is right that The Professor definitely focused on the stick (though he definitely knew the blade) and most of his students focus on that also!


----------



## Morgan (Apr 27, 2010)

Carol said:


> If it were up to me, I would like to see more emphasis on small blades in Modern Arnis. That is not to say the Professor wasn't an amazing teacher, or that the system isn't fantastic, or that the stick knowledge isn't important. For me it is a matter of being pragmatic: I am more likely to have a blade or a tactical flashlight with me than a twenty-something inch stick.


 
Hello Carol,

Perhaps I can suggest an approach for you because I sense that you are refering to personal protection training and applications rather than martial arts training.  Instead of focusing on the weapons, focus on angles of attack.  That would involve considering how you would use your particular device be it a tactical folding knife, fixed blade knife or tactical flashlight.
Where and how would YOU attack/defend?  What target areas are trying to cut, stab or impact? How would you defend against your own attacks?
Being pragmatic also means solving some problems based on your own needs, knowledge, training and personality.  Work on some of these ideas with friends and school-mates on your own time.  You might find the results are quite informative, practical and pragmatic.

Morgan


----------



## Dan Anderson (Apr 27, 2010)

Carol said:


> If it were up to me, I would like to see more emphasis on small blades in Modern Arnis.  That is not to say the Professor wasn't an amazing teacher, or that the system isn't fantastic, or that the stick knowledge isn't important.  For me it is a matter of being pragmatic: I am more likely to have a blade or a tactical flashlight with me than a twenty-something inch stick.



Hi Carol,

What Bram Frank does is exactly the answer you're looking for.  Modern Arnis for a small blade.  Truly.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


----------



## Carol (Apr 27, 2010)

I've been to seminars with Bram Frank, and respect him very much.  Bought blades from him too...his Lapu Lapu corto is in my daypack, awaiting my next hike.

However, Mr. Frank stands out in the Modern Arnis world, specifically because he does so much with the blade, yes?  Again, that is not to say the Professor wasn't an amazing teacher, or that the  system isn't fantastic, or that the stick knowledge isn't important.


----------

