# Running/jogging, injuries and stuff



## LastGasp (Aug 28, 2018)

(TL;DR at bottom)

I haven't done anything in fitness training, in a dedicated way, for many years, up till deciding a couple of months ago that it was long since time I did.
So then I started to put a little regimen together, nothing too strenuous to start with. I quickly found myself able to increase this workout, and have been very pleased with my progress, even in so short a time.

It has especially been a long time since I did any kind of running. Part of the reason for this is that I have a little 'dodginess' in one knee that made it awkward to run. The most I ever did was a short jog to get across a busy road, for instance. Even then, I found that I would jog on the balls of my feet/toes, I think to help reduce impact transferring up through the knee. Or whatever, but that's how I found I would do it.

Now, I have found that I have built some strength about the knee, and have been running up and down the stairs as part of my new regime (I'm nothing if not unorthodox! lol), which has advanced this greatly. But what I really want to be able to do is proper jogging/running, for a proper cardio-vascular workout if nothing else.

So with my new-found ability, I decided to test myself with some jogging on the spot, just to see how far I had come - didn't want to try going out for a jog straight away, partly, I admit, due to self-consciousness, but also in case I did myself an injury and would then find it difficult to get home.

I'm glad I did! What I did at home, was 30mins jogging on the spot. I had planned to do just 15, but found I felt quite capable of keeping going, so it got to 20mins, then 25, then finally decided that 30 had given me a decent workout, bit sweaty, a little tired. I did the whole thing on balls of feet/toes. Felt fine, no worries, was actually very happy with my progress.

Next day, the calf muscles in both legs were very stiff and painful. Clearly now, I'd overdone it. I have been hobbling about for the last couple of days, and only now are things improving - going to give it a day or two more before carefully going back to exercise.

*TL;DR* So I have a couple of very basic questions about running, strange as it may seem to many:

1. Is it a bad idea to run on the balls of the feet/toes?
2. If my body is not going to give me any warnings or signals whilst exercising that I am overdoing it, how on earth am I going to set my exercise limits?!

Help!


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## pdg (Aug 28, 2018)

Apparently, the ideal is to land on your mid sole, with your foot directly under you and then push through the balls of your feet.

Landing on the balls of your feet isn't great (bit of an increase in loading on your ankles, and like you experienced on your calves), but it could be worse.

Worse is landing on your heels, that's incredibly bad all round.

If you can only use your balls () for now, then do that and work toward moving to your mid sole.

Just don't go too far, if you start using your heels you'll have pain in your shins and knees (voice of experience on that I'm afraid...)


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## LastGasp (Aug 28, 2018)

Delayed onset muscle soreness - Wikipedia

Sounds like just what has happened here.


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## pdg (Aug 28, 2018)

DOMS is way preferable to shin splints 

DOMS might restrict you for a few days, splints take you pretty much out of running for a few weeks.


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## LastGasp (Aug 28, 2018)

Yup, improving rapidly now. Will get back to exercise in the next day or two I think 
I'll start in easy.


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## jobo (Aug 29, 2018)

LastGasp said:


> (TL;DR at bottom)
> 
> I haven't done anything in fitness training, in a dedicated way, for many years, up till deciding a couple of months ago that it was long since time I did.
> So then I started to put a little regimen together, nothing too strenuous to start with. I quickly found myself able to increase this workout, and have been very pleased with my progress, even in so short a time.
> ...





LastGasp said:


> (TL;DR at bottom)
> 
> I haven't done anything in fitness training, in a dedicated way, for many years, up till deciding a couple of months ago that it was long since time I did.
> So then I started to put a little regimen together, nothing too strenuous to start with. I quickly found myself able to increase this workout, and have been very pleased with my progress, even in so short a time.
> ...


Your body expects  you to know that doing new/ usual exercise, will cause muscle damage, causing lightSh, muscle damage is generally a good thinG, as it will cause your body to adapt, however, at your age/ standard of fitness  it's not such a good idea, as your blood chemistry is all wrong for repairing, let alone adapting muscles, and all you do is postpone your next training session whilst your body very slowly heals its self, over time, once your body realised that this isn't some one off aberration, your blood chemistry will change to fit the new you, but your repair/ adaptation , recovery will always be on the slow side compared with some younger.

Jogging is a completely pointless activerty, you need to walk before you can run, go for fast paced walks, that get you heart beating, once you have the hang of that, start doing occasional sprints, even if your flat out speed is only a jog, then walk some more, slowly turn it into a series of sprints with a bit of walking in between.


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## LastGasp (Aug 29, 2018)

jobo said:


> Your body expects  you to know that doing new/ usual exercise, will cause muscle damage, causing lighting muscle damage is generally a good think, as it will cause your body to adapt, however, at your age/ standard of fitness  it's not such a good idea, as your blood chemistry is all wrong for repairing, let alone adapting muscles, and all you do is postpone your next training session whilst your body very slowly heals its self, over time, once your body realised that this isn't some one off aberration, your blood chemistry will change to fit the new you, but your repair/ adaptation , recovery will always be on the slow side compared with some younger.



Yes, coming to realise this! lol



> Jogging is a completely pointless activerty, you need to walk before you can run, go for fast paced walks, that get you heart beating, once you have the hang of that, start doing occasional sprints, even if your flat out speed is only a jog, then walk some more, slowly turn it into a series of sprints with a bit of walking in between.



This is exactly how I have started 
I began with easy walking, then started to push the walk as fast as I could without running, then started to do longer walks.
But I also started walking up and down the stairs a lot, as I used to do a bit of hill-walking (I live near the Lake District), which I love, but had got out of shape for it, want to get back to it. Walking on the flat doesn't prepare you for this - first time I tried after a long lay-off, my heart went a little bit crazy  Then I found I could start to run the stairs, which seems good for a cardio-vascular workout. After a couple of months of this progression, I found I had built up enough strength and control that my dodgy knee can now cope, and my heart doesn't give me anymore scares.

So running seemed to me to be the next logical progression, easy jogging being a starting point. And the way I did it certainly gave the calf muscles a workout!

Going to be a bit gentler with it for a while, see how things progress.


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## jobo (Aug 29, 2018)

LastGasp said:


> Yes, coming to realise this! lol
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No easy jogging is pointless, either it's working your heart in the zone you want it it's not, and if it's easy it's not,

Either carry on walking which is a good exercise In its own right especialy, if your getting breathless, or run properly, blast your heart rate right up for a few seconds and then go back to walking.

I see people slow jogging for miles, with no real effort, if there no effort there no gain in cardio, it's pointless. all you are training is an ability to run very slowly for a long way, which is possibly not one of your goals


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## jobo (Aug 29, 2018)

To further explain of you easy jog for say 30 mins, and only for the last 5 mins have you had seriously elevated heart rate and panting, then you have just waisted 25 mins, you could have got exactly the same, quite probably better, cardio benefits by running properly for 5 mins, if your easy jog doesn't consist of seriously elevated heart rate and pabting, then you have wasted, the full half hour, as far as improving cadrdio is concerned


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## LastGasp (Aug 29, 2018)

Walking, jogging, running, sprinting..,it's all better than sitting on my fat **** doing nothing, like I had been for the last year or so, lol


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## jobo (Aug 29, 2018)

LastGasp said:


> Walking, jogging, running, sprinting..,it's all better than sitting on my fat **** doing nothing, like I had been for the last year or so, lol


Well that is possibly true, but that's old news, the old you, you want the best fitness you can achieve if the shortest possible time,

For that, you don't need a scatter gun,anything is better than nothing aproach, you need a focused goals and objective aproach.

What is it you want to achieve ? 

Or is there any practical usskilfully in being able to run 3miles very slowly, I considered this back in the day and decided the answer was a resounding no, I have a use for being able to sprint short distances very quickly, and a theoretical use, for being able to, cover a mile in good time,if I'm being chased or chasing someone. And not at all that I can see for running at 4miles an hour.for a few miles.

Running a long way slowly is not an intermediate step to either of those, it's a discipline that only results in you being good at running a long way slowly,


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## LastGasp (Aug 29, 2018)

No, I'm not concerned with getting fit _fast_.
As to what I want to achieve, it's largely a case of just see where it all takes me. Remember I have all kinds of physical problems, and have had concerns about where my general health was going too. One. step. at. a. time.

I do take your point jobo, and I will bear it in mind, but I'm still just feeling my way right now.


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## LastGasp (Aug 29, 2018)

Here's a question for you then jobo:

What's wrong with developing endurance?
The last time I did regular hill-walking, I started  by finding I couldn't go far on the fells of the Lake District. As I got used to it, I went further, until I could spend all day clambering around the tops. Some of the routes I've yet to do will take that long. At no time did I push my speed, that's not what that is about, unless you go fell-running.
A few years ago, I spent two whole months camping among and walking the fells. I could go a whole lot further by the end of that than when I started. Even did run some of it by the end (usually on the homeward bound bits, so downhill lol).


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## MxcnPhoenix (Aug 29, 2018)

First off I want encourage you to keep moving in the direction your currently moving. I think it's wonderful that you're finding a purpose and passion for exercise and re-investigating the MA amidst the obstacles you're currently facing. Keep moving forward.

I'd also like to add my two cents to this discussion in response to your two questions in your OP.



LastGasp said:


> 1. Is it a bad idea to run on the balls of the feet/toes?



Yes and No.

Yes: if you have weak ankles from an injury and/or are de-conditioned from a long period of inactivity. *Walking* on the balls of your feet/toes over a specific distance on a safe, level surface is a very useful and very common method of helping athletes recover from ankle injuries and helping people who have weak ankles to develop the strength necessary to properly balance their body weight. Running that way, if you're not used to it (see the rest of my answer below), can lead to injury ESPECIALLY if your muscles are sore or tired from a previous session.

No: because if you run that way naturally, or were trained to run that way at a young age and have just continued doing so, changing the way your foot hits the ground (known as a foot strike) could expose you to a greater chance of further injury. IIRC there was a research paper that was done indicating that there is no statistically significant benefit to changing the way you run naturally for MOST runners.



LastGasp said:


> 2. If my body is not going to give me any warnings or signals whilst exercising that I am overdoing it, how on earth am I going to set my exercise limits?!



This is an EXCELLENT question that I've both asked myself and been asked by others over the years. The short answer is that eventually your body will give you warning signs you're overdoing it. Unfortunately the answer to this question boils down to consistency. Start small and careful, as it seems you are, and make changes slowly even over the course of weeks if necessary because consistency will trump intensity (but they aren't mutually exclusive). Like you observed here:



LastGasp said:


> A few years ago, I spent two whole months camping among and walking the fells. I could go a whole lot further by the end of that than when I started.



So my advice for this question is this: in the beginning program every exercise with 3 sets of 10 reps and allow yourself a "recovery day" in between sessions. I know at first that seems overly simplistic (and arguably "lazy") but hear me out. When you break down your exercises into 3 sets of 10 reps you have to break down the volume of work that you're doing and this is a wonderful diagnostic tool for deciding if you need to increase or decrease the intensity of the exercise. Using my example of walking on the balls of your feet/toes you could program your exercise to be 3 sets of 10 reps of walking 10m on the balls of your feet. If you can finish the exercise easily and experience no major muscle soreness or disruption in your "recovery day" you know that you need to increase the intensity tomorrow maybe increase the distance or add a backpack with books or rocks in it (or if you access to weightlifting equipment some dumbbells or kettlebells). However if you find that your are significantly sore or have a major disruption on your "recovery day" you know to decrease the intensity. Over time your body will increase your awareness of how tired your muscles are becoming during your workouts and you'll be able to regulate yourself much more easily.

You can compare it to MA training, IIRC Lau Gar (which I believe you mentioned in another post) implements grabs and joint locks in their system and like all TCMA it relies on beautiful stances and body positioning all of which require a developed sensitivity of where your body is positioned in space (read proprioception). In the beginning of training you aren't immediately aware of your weight distribution or the proper angles to hold your limbs in but over time that sensitivity develops. Exercise is much the same way. Have faith in your body and trust your gut, if you think you shouldn't be doing something because it doesn't "feel right" then don't do it right now, continue training and re-evaluate later.


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## LastGasp (Aug 29, 2018)

That is a very helpful answer, thank you!
I shall try to put that into practice. Whilst I am aware of being careful not to overdo things, it's not easy when you're doing it off your own back with no one to guide you, especially when not having done anything particularly strenuous for many years.
So far, it has been a case of just listening to my body, but when it's silent on the matter, it doesn't help!

Doesn't feel right for another newb to do this, but welcome to the forum


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## Buka (Aug 29, 2018)

I have some suggestions. In regards to the ball of the feet, or heel striking first, or mid foot - people do it all of those ways. What's of great importance is you do it the way you have always naturally run. To change now would be dangerous, foolish even.

But - and this is a pretty big but, what surface you run on is important. You are far better off on grass than on pavement. A golf course during off hours is ideal, impracticable and frowned on, but I only say it to make the point about the surface. Running on cement isn't good, especially as we age. 

You should make it a point to stretch your Achilles and calfs before and after you run. And if they are currently bothering you now, back off and rest them....then resume with pre run stretching and after run stretching.

As for the dodginess in that knee - you might want to get a brace, just a comfortable sleeve brace, and wear it for a bit when you start. And do some knee strengthening exercises so you won't need it any more. Are you familiar with slow chair squats?


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## LastGasp (Aug 29, 2018)

Thanks Buka, some points to think about, and ideas to introduce, surface and stretching.

My knee strength I have been working on over the last couple of months; stair work and squats mostly. Quite pleased with the improvement thus far.


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## pdg (Aug 29, 2018)

MxcnPhoenix said:


> IIRC there was a research paper that was done indicating that there is no statistically significant benefit to changing the way you run naturally for MOST runners





Buka said:


> I have some suggestions. In regards to the ball of the feet, or heel striking first, or mid foot - people do it all of those ways. What's of great importance is you do it the way you have always naturally run. To change now would be dangerous, foolish even.



I must be one of the not most 

I always ran landing heel first - for short distances (which is all I ever did) it was fine.

Then I decided to start doing some longer stuff.

3 runs of a few miles, couldn't run again for 4 weeks without shooting pains in my shins...

When I started again, I was on my balls () because I couldn't reprogramme to mid sole as easily - no more pain.

Heel strike is very very bad. For me at least.


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## Buka (Aug 29, 2018)

MxcnPhoenix said:


> First off I want encourage you to keep moving in the direction your currently moving. I think it's wonderful that you're finding a purpose and passion for exercise and re-investigating the MA amidst the obstacles you're currently facing. Keep moving forward.
> 
> I'd also like to add my two cents to this discussion in response to your two questions in your OP.
> 
> ...



Just wanted to say Welcome to MartialTalk, MxcnPhoenix.


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## jobo (Aug 29, 2018)

LastGasp said:


> No, I'm not concerned with getting fit _fast_.
> As to what I want to achieve, it's largely a case of just see where it all takes me. Remember I have all kinds of physical problems, and have had concerns about where my general health was going too. One. step. at. a. time.
> 
> I do take your point jobo, and I will bear it in mind, but I'm still just feeling my way right now.


I diDnt say FAST I said as fast as you can, do you want it to take two years or 10 ?

You need goals Or you will fail, Or rather you won't know when you succeed ? and with out success people stop

For instance you have issues you've shared with us, a reasonable goal would be to improve them to the point of being able to do a specific activity you cant do now,

So back strenghing exercises, so you can cook a meal with our pain is a reasonable goal, moving on the spot for half an hour, isn't hitting that at all.

Set some short and mud range objectives and then design a program that takes you on that direction


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## LastGasp (Aug 29, 2018)

I'm working on it.
Motivation isn't a problem. But I can only do so much at a time. Like I said, I have seen improvements in just two months. I have increased what I am doing in that time. Mostly, I know where my limits are though. A heart scare makes one wary. I don't think you realise what kind of a wreck I was, lol.


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## dvcochran (Aug 29, 2018)

LastGasp said:


> (TL;DR at bottom)
> 
> I haven't done anything in fitness training, in a dedicated way, for many years, up till deciding a couple of months ago that it was long since time I did.
> So then I started to put a little regimen together, nothing too strenuous to start with. I quickly found myself able to increase this workout, and have been very pleased with my progress, even in so short a time.
> ...



Great story! Congratulations on getting back into exercise. I cannot speak to running on the toes exclusively but landing on the heels first is bad when running. The stress goes directly to the joints.


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## gucia6 (Aug 30, 2018)

LastGasp said:


> So with my new-found ability, I decided to test myself with some jogging on the spot, just to see how far I had come - didn't want to try going out for a jog straight away, partly, I admit, due to self-consciousness, but also in case I did myself an injury and would then find it difficult to get home.
> !



question to those more knowledgeable..

Is jogging on the spot such a good idea? 

It feels a bit against the natural dynamics of the body. A minute or two for little warm up I guess should be fine, but 30 minutes seems a bit exaggerated.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 30, 2018)

LastGasp said:


> Thanks Buka, some points to think about, and ideas to introduce, surface and stretching.
> 
> My knee strength I have been working on over the last couple of months; stair work and squats mostly. Quite pleased with the improvement thus far.


Youre lucky with this. If i do any squats, i hear a pop, and if i do 10 or so (or any with weights, it causes pain that makes me think theyre a bad idea. Stairs though. Those are good. Best workouts ive had for cardio and footwork came from stairs.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 30, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> Youre lucky with this. If i do any squats, i hear a pop, and if i do 10 or so (or any with weights, it causes pain that makes me think theyre a bad idea.


My body is way too old for a 24 year old...


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## LastGasp (Aug 30, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> Great story! Congratulations on getting back into exercise. I cannot speak to running on the toes exclusively but landing on the heels first is bad when running. The stress goes directly to the joints.



Thank you.
I'm kind of embarrassed that I even needed to ask! So many must take it all for granted.



gucia6 said:


> question to those more knowledgeable..
> 
> Is jogging on the spot such a good idea?
> 
> It feels a bit against the natural dynamics of the body. A minute or two for little warm up I guess should be fine, but 30 minutes seems a bit exaggerated.



Yes, I did it as a test really. I want to get out running properly, but I have put my body through the grinding mill somewhat with lots of injuries from crashing motorcycles, so I'm kind of exploring it anew. I just didn't bother for so long, thinking I'd just messed myself up too badly. I don't plan for the jogging on the spot to become a thing. Although it felt fine when I did it.



kempodisciple said:


> Youre lucky with this. If i do any squats, i hear a pop, and if i do 10 or so (or any with weights, it causes pain that makes me think theyre a bad idea. Stairs though. Those are good. Best workouts ive had for cardio and footwork came from stairs.



I have to be a little careful with squats, feet have to be positioned just so, and I have to keep careful control, but if I do that, I'm ok with it, get down as deep as I can with each one. Not using weights yet, we'll see. Stairs have been a brilliant aid to physical recovery. I don't have, and can't afford at the moment, any equipment to help with working out, so I just use what's available. You'd laugh at my solution for weight training equipment! Works though, although perhaps not as well as the proper kit.


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## pdg (Aug 30, 2018)

LastGasp said:


> I don't have, and can't afford at the moment, any equipment to help with working out, so I just use what's available. You'd laugh at my solution for weight training equipment! Works though, although perhaps not as well as the proper kit.



Anything that adds resistance is technically weight training, and to that end there's no difference between a set of branded weights and a broomstick with bags loaded with rocks hung off the ends...


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## LastGasp (Aug 30, 2018)

pdg said:


> Anything that adds resistance is technically weight training, and to that end there's no difference between a set of branded weights and a broomstick with bags loaded with rocks hung off the ends...



Actually, I think MA teaches adaptability. You only have to look at where some of the MA weapons came from.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 30, 2018)

LastGasp said:


> Thank you.
> I'm kind of embarrassed that I even needed to ask! So many must take it all for granted.
> 
> 
> ...


Honestly, stairs can give you all the weight training and cardio you need, up until you want to include weight training beyond bodyweight. If you want help with some stair-workouts, i can take a video and pm them to you


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## LastGasp (Aug 30, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> Honestly, stairs can give you all the weight training and cardio you need, up until you want to include weight training beyond bodyweight. If you want help with some stair-workouts, i can take a video and pm them to you



Kind of you to offer. I'm not sure. I'm only using the stairs in the house, and they're quite narrow, with an awkward 90deg. turn at the bottom. I don't know of anywhere else I can find a wider, longer set.

Later, when I've sorted the job situation, I want to get back to walking the rugged English Lake District fells I'm lucky to be near (well, 30 miles from), and stairs is the best training I can think of for that, seeing as it's all very flat locally. I kind of do fancy fell-running, if I ever got that fit (and that's by no means a given - probably just wishing I was that fit!) but it's not a priority goal.


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## pdg (Aug 30, 2018)

LastGasp said:


> Kind of you to offer. I'm not sure. I'm only using the stairs in the house, and they're quite narrow, with an awkward 90deg. turn at the bottom. I don't know of anywhere else I can find a wider, longer set



Nah, do it - you don't need wider or longer, you can adapt 



kempodisciple said:


> Honestly, stairs can give you all the weight training and cardio you need, up until you want to include weight training beyond bodyweight. If you want help with some stair-workouts, i can take a video and pm them to you



If you do it for him, can you copy me in?

There's always something everyone can add.


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## LastGasp (Aug 30, 2018)

Tbh, I'm struggling to imagine a 'proper' stair workout, beyond going up and down them!


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## LastGasp (Aug 30, 2018)

MxcnPhoenix said:


> This is an EXCELLENT question that I've both asked myself and been asked by others over the years. The short answer is that eventually your body will give you warning signs you're overdoing it. Unfortunately the answer to this question boils down to consistency. Start small and careful, as it seems you are, and make changes slowly even over the course of weeks if necessary because consistency will trump intensity (but they aren't mutually exclusive).



Funny thing is, when I did the exercise that caused the injury, it was like I couldn't really feel what my calf muscles were doing at all.
Incorporated into a workout again today, all twinges having disappeared by now, and immediately I could feel what was going on. So I knew this time when to stop - only 6mins, no wonder I injured myself the first time!
Well, like you say, I'll know tomorrow if I was able to judge correctly.


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## now disabled (Aug 30, 2018)

LastGasp said:


> Actually, I think MA teaches adaptability. You only have to look at where some of the MA weapons came from.




If you want a suggestion of an MA weapon (kinda) that you can use (if your good with wood you could make one) get hold of a suburi Bokken and look for the drills and or Kata (ooops bad word there) that are for "regular" Bokken and try that ...if ya can get up to say 500 cuts a time you will see results (you can get the one handed version to)


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## MxcnPhoenix (Aug 30, 2018)

LastGasp said:


> Doesn't feel right for another newb to do this, but welcome to the forum





Buka said:


> Just wanted to say Welcome to MartialTalk, MxcnPhoenix.



Thank you! I'm glad to be here. I've been haunting this forum for years and decided it was time to participate 



LastGasp said:


> Actually, I think MA teaches adaptability. You only have to look at where some of the MA weapons came from.



Speaking of...I was looking over the photos of your saloon and training area you built and you're very resourceful. Your tree-based wooden dummy is awesome!



LastGasp said:


> Stairs have been a brilliant aid to physical recovery.



I 100% agree with this. I lived in an apartment up 8 flights of stairs a few years ago and it did wonderful things for my cardiorespiratory conditioning and leg strength overall. One thing I liked to do was drive my weight backward as if I were trying to walk up the stairs using only my hamstrings and glutes to power the step up and you'd be surprised how much that emulates an isolateral (one-side) squat.

In terms of exercises you can do on stairs you might even try a Bulgarian split squat:





If you're in a stairwell or have a handrailing nearby you can use it to reduce the load you put on your balance and control the depth of the squat until you're strong enough to perform it fully. The real trick with this exercise that you can't tell from the image is that as you push up from the bottom of squat you're also driving your weight backward through your foot on your front leg (as if you were trying to drag a piece of paper toward your back leg) so you're contracting your hamstrings and glutes strongly as you push up.


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## LastGasp (Aug 30, 2018)

MxcnPhoenix said:


> Speaking of...I was looking over the photos of your saloon and training area you built and you're very resourceful. Your tree-based wooden dummy is awesome!



I don't know where you saw that, but it wasn't me I'm afraid!


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## MxcnPhoenix (Aug 30, 2018)

LastGasp said:


> I don't know where you saw that, but it wasn't me I'm afraid!



You're absolutely right, I must've crossed wires while I was reading this other thread. I clearly need a nap to recharge my brain lol.


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## gucia6 (Aug 31, 2018)

LastGasp said:


> Yes, I did it as a test really. I want to get out running properly, but I have put my body through the grinding mill somewhat with lots of injuries from crashing motorcycles, so I'm kind of exploring it anew. I just didn't bother for so long, thinking I'd just messed myself up too badly. I don't plan for the jogging on the spot to become a thing. Although it felt fine when I did it.
> .


I see.

I myself cannot jog (whatever I do wrong, my knees don't manage)



kempodisciple said:


> Honestly, stairs can give you all the weight training and cardio you need, up until you want to include weight training beyond bodyweight. If you want help with some stair-workouts, i can take a video and pm them to you


yes, stairs are great 

But anyway, for improving general fitness and endurance, I don't think the so called 'cardio' is always necessary. Couple of sets of exercises in sequence: from squat roll back to shoulders > roll forward get to your feet > one push-up > one jump. First time I barely managed 5, now I am reaching 9-10 and I am huffed and puffed and my heart wants to jump out of my chest.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 31, 2018)

gucia6 said:


> I see.
> 
> I myself cannot jog (whatever I do wrong, my knees don't manage)
> 
> ...


So a burpee? I do a more complicated form of that...when i make the stair video, ill include it


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## gucia6 (Aug 31, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> So a *burpee*? I do a more complicated form of that...when i make the stair video, ill include it


that's the one 
I am still a newbie to MA world, an older lady with little activity before, so level of complexity is still low for me 

I'll be waiting for your video


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## LastGasp (Aug 31, 2018)

gucia6 said:


> question to those more knowledgeable..
> 
> Is jogging on the spot such a good idea?
> 
> It feels a bit against the natural dynamics of the body. A minute or two for little warm up I guess should be fine, but 30 minutes seems a bit exaggerated.



To come back to this, I too would like to know the thoughts of those with more experience on this.
It doesn't _feel_ wrong to me. It gets my heart rate up in a way that I can control, so it seems useful from that point of view. I can push harder, or ease up as I need to. And nothing else I currently do gives my calf muscles as good a workout - I can really feel that; well, since recovering from the injury anyway!
And I'm still not sure I can get out and manage a worthwhile distance running properly - even round the block - so it seems to me to be a good way to build up to that.

I know jobo's view, but the fact that I can push into 'sprints' when I want to at least partially gets round that. Bearing in mind that I am just starting out, and want to get to running outside anyway, _is_ there any harm in jogging on the spot? Apart from that injury from doing too much too soon, I can't feel any adverse effects.


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## pdg (Aug 31, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> So a burpee? I do a more complicated form of that...when i make the stair video, ill include it



Rolling backwards onto your shoulders isn't a burpee.

Not sure it has a name actually, but no matter


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## pdg (Aug 31, 2018)

LastGasp said:


> _is_ there any harm in jogging on the spot?



No.

It's not harmful to sprint on the spot, or do some skipping either.

I may be wrong as well, but I don't really classify DOMS as an injury. As long as you don't push the same muscles too hard while recovering for a few days.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 31, 2018)

pdg said:


> Rolling backwards onto your shoulders isn't a burpee.
> 
> Not sure it has a name actually, but no matter


I assumed that was a typo, since the rest of it just describes a burpee.


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## LastGasp (Aug 31, 2018)

pdg said:


> No.
> 
> It's not harmful to sprint on the spot, or do some skipping either.
> 
> I may be wrong as well, but I don't really classify DOMS as an injury. As long as you don't push the same muscles too hard while recovering for a few days.



From what I've read, it's micro-tears in the muscle tissues, so technically, I'd say it is a number of injuries, just very minor ones comparatively speaking.


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## jobo (Aug 31, 2018)

LastGasp said:


> From what I've read, it's micro-tears in the muscle tissues, so technically, I'd say it is a number of injuries, just very minor ones comparatively speaking.


Micro tears, is just what happens to your muscles if you use them, getting up and making a cup of tea will result in micro tears, DOMS is DELAYED Onset of muscle sorness, that delay needs to be at least 24 hours for it to be classed as doms, if your just sore the next day, that's not delayed and therefore not doms, just ordinary everyday muscle soreness, caused by inflamation


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## pdg (Aug 31, 2018)

jobo said:


> that delay needs to be at least 24 hours for it to be classed as doms,



Onset of DOMS can be after as little as 4-6 hours actually.

If it doesn't hurt straight away, but hurts later, that's delayed.


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## jobo (Aug 31, 2018)

pdg said:


> Onset of DOMS can be after as little as 4-6 hours actually.
> 
> If it doesn't hurt straight away, but hurts later, that's delayed.


Well clearly it cant, as that's no a big enough delay

Delayed onset muscle soreness - Wikipedia

24hours is the .minimum


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## pdg (Aug 31, 2018)

jobo said:


> Well clearly it cant, as that's no a big enough delay
> 
> Delayed onset muscle soreness - Wikipedia
> 
> 24hours is the .minimum



From the page you linked:



			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> The soreness is felt most strongly 24 to 72 hours after the exercise



Maybe read your references?


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## pdg (Aug 31, 2018)

From the same page:

Although there is variance among exercises and individuals, the soreness usually *increases in intensity in the first 24 hours *after exercise. It peaks from 24 to 72 hours, then subsides and disappears up to seven days after exercise


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## jobo (Aug 31, 2018)

pdg said:


> From the same page:
> 
> Although there is variance among exercises and individuals, the soreness usually *increases in intensity in the first 24 hours *after exercise. It peaks from 24 to 72 hours, then subsides and disappears up to seven days after exercise


Well yes if it's not getting Worse and worse between 24and 72 hours it's not doms. Just being stiff/ sore the next morning is not doms


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## LastGasp (Aug 31, 2018)

jobo said:


> Well yes if it's not getting Worse and worse between 24and 72 hours it's not doms. Just being stiff/ sore the next morning is not doms



Which it did. I'm 95% sure that's what it was, as it followed most descriptions of DOMS very closely. Nothing immediately following exercise, not too bad first thing next morning. But then got steadily worse, until it left me hobbling around. Then faded quite quickly after about 3 days.


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## pdg (Aug 31, 2018)

jobo said:


> Well yes if it's not getting Worse and worse between 24and 72 hours it's not doms. Just being stiff/ sore the next morning is not doms



If you have Soreness in your Muscles, the Onset of which is Delayed, then what else is it?

That's a rhetorical question - we both know you'll change your opinion ready for the next thread...

Your methodology has become exceedingly tedious.


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## pdg (Aug 31, 2018)

So let's look at the progression of ignorance...

Firstly, you said the delay to onset must be at least 24 hours:



jobo said:


> DOMS is DELAYED Onset of muscle sorness, that delay needs to be at least 24 hours for it to be classed as doms



Then you cited a page without actually reading it, trying to reinforce that opinion:



jobo said:


> Well clearly it cant, as that's no a big enough delay
> 
> Delayed onset muscle soreness - Wikipedia
> 
> 24hours is the .minimum



Then you backtracked slightly and insinuated you were trying to say it has to be getting worse for a minimum of 24 hours:



jobo said:


> Well yes if it's not getting Worse and worse between 24and 72 hours it's not doms. Just being stiff/ sore the next morning is not doms



At some point, you'll see this bit - "Although there is *variance* among exercises and *individuals*, the soreness *usually* increases in intensity in the first 24 hours" - and change again, stating that from the start you meant it might start the next morning and get worse for a while.

Let's face it, you don't really know what you're on about.


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## MxcnPhoenix (Aug 31, 2018)

I'd like to point out two things regarding DOMS:

1) The Delayed in Delayed Onset Muscles Soreness historically describes the "peak" of muscle soreness which statistically occurs 24-72 hours after the exercise that caused it. It's not unusual for people to start experiencing DOMS even just an hour afterward with pain/discomfort peaking later.

2) It's generally accepted in the health and fitness industry that the feelings of stiffness, soreness, or other discomforts that follow bouts of unaccustomed or strenuous exertion can be attributed to DOMS.

LastGasp I'd say it's a safe bet you were certainly experiencing DOMS. 



LastGasp said:


> _is_ there any harm in jogging on the spot?



Coming back to this. I'd say the short answer is no.

The longer answer is also no.

Will it improve your running ability? Beyond improving your overall physical conditioning, probably not much.

Is it lower impact on your joints? Depends on if you're performing it plyometrically (read with jumps) (also is that even a word...?) or if you are just switching from one foot to the next. If you are jumping/hopping from one foot to the next, then no it's not going to be "lower impact".

Can it injure me? I wouldn't think it's likely. It's significantly lower risk than running outside. (But really an argument could be made that anything could injure you if nitpick it enough).

In my opinion, if you can move your body without pain (or in some cases, move it without aggravating existing pains) AND you're not injuring yourself AND it improves your overall conditioning AND you enjoy the results you're getting and don't mind doing the work. Then why not continue to do it? You always have the option to adjust your program as you progress and make it better.

Regarding exercise in general: I think it's far better to start somewhere so that you can get your bearings and then adjust your course as you discover where it is you want to go, than to not start because you've developed anxiety over whether you're doing the exact right thing to get the most improvement with the least amount of effort.


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## LastGasp (Aug 31, 2018)

MxcnPhoenix said:


> Will it improve your running ability? *Beyond improving your overall physical conditioning*, probably not much.



Then, given the early stage I'm at currently, that's reason enough to continue. I will for a while, and see how things go generally before reassessing.


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## pdg (Aug 31, 2018)

LastGasp said:


> Then, given the early stage I'm at currently, that's reason enough to continue. I will for a while, and see how things go generally before reassessing.



Well, like I said before it's much like skipping - it's not just an activity for teenage girls 

There'd be no real reason to stop doing it, if there was then people like pro boxers wouldn't skip...

The only time you should consider swapping running on the spot is if you get to a stage where you can't get your heart rate up by doing it without causing damage - which is a very unlikely scenario - or if other physical issues prevent it.

Or maybe if you live in a flat and the downstairs neighbours complain about the noise...


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## dvcochran (Aug 31, 2018)

gucia6 said:


> that's the one
> I am still a newbie to MA world, an older lady with little activity before, so level of complexity is still low for me
> 
> I'll be waiting for your video


That is awesome. Just awesome.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 2, 2018)

LastGasp said:


> Kind of you to offer. I'm not sure. I'm only using the stairs in the house, and they're quite narrow, with an awkward 90deg. turn at the bottom. I don't know of anywhere else I can find a wider, longer set.
> 
> Later, when I've sorted the job situation, I want to get back to walking the rugged English Lake District fells I'm lucky to be near (well, 30 miles from), and stairs is the best training I can think of for that, seeing as it's all very flat locally. I kind of do fancy fell-running, if I ever got that fit (and that's by no means a given - probably just wishing I was that fit!) but it's not a priority goal.





gucia6 said:


> that's the one
> I am still a newbie to MA world, an older lady with little activity before, so level of complexity is still low for me
> 
> I'll be waiting for your video



Both of you should have a video in your inbox. I apologize in advance for the quality, I am not a natural in front of a camera in the slightest.


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## gucia6 (Sep 2, 2018)

pdg said:


> Rolling backwards onto your shoulders isn't a burpee.
> 
> Not sure it has a name actually, but no matter


ehhh... I just don't know how to call it professionally. It is part of back breakfall or back flip but without complete roll



kempodisciple said:


> Both of you should have a video in your inbox. I apologize in advance for the quality, I am not a natural in front of a camera in the slightest.


thanks a lot.

We basically do the same just in different order and jump is not the star jump, but to pick knees high to chest


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## LastGasp (Sep 3, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> Both of you should have a video in your inbox. I apologize in advance for the quality, I am not a natural in front of a camera in the slightest.



Thank you. Perfectly good enough quality to see what you are doing.
Some of those will be problematic, as my stair well doesn't have the space, but I might be able to find another place or way to try them. I appreciate that you took the time to do this video.


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## jobo (Sep 4, 2018)

gucia6 said:


> question to those more knowledgeable..
> 
> Is jogging on the spot such a good idea?
> 
> It feels a bit against the natural dynamics of the body. A minute or two for little warm up I guess should be fine, but 30 minutes seems a bit exaggerated.


Well its not harmful, its just pointless, your training your muscles to become efficient at a novement that has no practicle purpose at all, unless you enter a running on the spot competition, it will help not at all, with running or even jOgging as the movement pattern is completly different, .

If you want to slighly elivate your heart rate a  for half an hour, drag a hoover round, with a degree of Urgency,that way at least you have something to show for it,

Every so often Our instructor, tells us to jump up and down for 5mins, i do ten big jumps and stop, i can see absolutely no point in training my muscles to do something that will come in useful, never


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