# Unknown Knuckle Damage



## NCRonin (Jun 13, 2017)

So yesterday evening I came home from training and began doing some basic drills on the wooden dummy (mine has a padded steel trunk). I had my headphones in and lost track of time and my pace, I ended up going harder and faster than I intended to but in the end I wasn't any soarer than after a good workout. However this morning when I started typing out a paper I noticed something up with the main knuckle on my middle finger. 

I have full range of motion and is only as soar as the rest. However the skin on top of the knuckle seems to have disconnected from the knuckle, when I lay my hand flat I can shift it around and feel it sort of sliding over the bone. 
Again its no soarer than the knuckle on my other hand and it isn't swollen. I've been training on pads, the heavy bag, and wood pole for the better part of a decade and have never experienced this sort of thing before. 

So I'm just wondering if anyone has had this happen before and if so what it was. I'd rather not spend the money on an x-ray or other scans because my insurance is stretched as is from a run of bad luck in the health department so any enlightenment you can give me would be welcome.


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## Buka (Jun 13, 2017)

Welcome to MartialTalk, bro.


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## NCRonin (Jun 13, 2017)

Buka said:


> Welcome to MartialTalk, bro.


Thanks, good to be here.


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## DanT (Jun 13, 2017)

It's probably swollen and the sliding is the result of an accumulation of blood under the skin to aid in healing and it shouldn't be a big deal. I would still get an x ray and go get it checked out. If you have some Jow, massaging that onto the knuckle will help.

Give it time to heal completely so don't hit anything with it. 

This is just my opinion and shouldn't be taken as medical advice. You should still get it checked out by a physician in person.


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## NCRonin (Jun 13, 2017)

DanT said:


> It's probably swollen and the sliding is the result of an accumulation of blood under the skin to aid in healing and it shouldn't be a big deal. I would still get an x ray and go get it checked out. If you have some Jow, massaging that onto the knuckle will help.
> 
> Give it time to heal completely so don't hit anything with it.
> 
> This is just my opinion and shouldn't be taken as medical advice. You should still get it checked out by a physician in person.



Thanks for the response, and I do have a checkup with the doc tomorrow, I was just looking for a sounding board.
Thanks again.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jun 13, 2017)

NCRonin said:


> However the skin on top of the knuckle seems to have disconnected from the knuckle, when I lay my hand flat I can shift it around and feel it sort of sliding over the bone.


I'm not sure I get what is abnormal here. My skin slides around freely over my knuckles and I don't have any current injuries in that area.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 13, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I'm not sure I get what is abnormal here. My skin slides around freely over my knuckles and I don't have any current injuries in that area.



 you're old....he's not .....says the guy who is older than you


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## Tony Dismukes (Jun 13, 2017)

Xue Sheng said:


> you're old....he's not .....says the guy who is older than you


I did wonder if that was a factor, but at this point I can't remember exactly how my skin behaved when I was 19.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 13, 2017)

Xue Sheng said:


> you're old....he's not .....says the guy who is older than you


I'm 23 years old, and the skin on my knuckles slides around freely as well. I would be more concerned if it couldnt


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 13, 2017)

NCRonin said:


> However the skin on top of the knuckle seems to have disconnected from the knuckle, when I lay my hand flat I can shift it around and feel it sort of sliding over the bone.


Sounds like  trip to the doctor to me.


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## NCRonin (Jun 13, 2017)

Yes the skin naturally moves, but this _feels_ abnormal, what DanT said would explain the sensation "Blood under the skin pooling to aid healing" as this corresponds to symptoms of other impact injuries I have experienced.

Fortunately I can say with certainty that there aren't any tendon tares or serious damage because I have full range of motion and no abnormal pain. Also now that the swelling on my other hand has gone down I've noticed minor swelling over the effected aria.


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## wingchun100 (Jun 14, 2017)

I have never seen an injury like what you are describing, so I cannot help.

Just thought I would post that in a thread where you are seeking help! LOL

Welcome to Martial Talk.


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## NCRonin (Jun 14, 2017)

Ok so a quick update for anyone who cares. After waking up today, the second day after the offending training session, I was disappointed to still be experiencing the same symptoms of what felt like pooled liquid in between the knuckle/tendons and skin. I knew I'd have to bring up another minor injury at my physical which just happened to be scheduled for later this same afternoon.

However after doing my morning routine of qu gong and wooden dummy drills (Substituting closed fist punches for teisho or seryuto) I noticed that all swelling and abnormal shifting seemed to had dissipated. On further reflection I'm guessing that by heating up the aria and increasing blood flow through my workout I allowed the pooled blood or other fluid to dissipate and the joint to "settle".

All in all a vary interesting experience that reinforced one of my sifu's favorite rants "Don't punch with a fist if you can help it-- theres too many little bones and sensitive cartilage in you hands to be slamming them into things theres a reason you have elbows"... though I don't think I'll really ever be able to give up the heavy bag.


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## Ironbear24 (Jun 28, 2017)

I don't think I understand what's going on.


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 28, 2017)

NCRonin said:


> "Don't punch with a fist if you can help it-- theres too many little bones and sensitive cartilage in you hands to be slamming them into things theres a reason you have elbows".


Not really a true recommendation as  is an general assumption based on how most people make a fist.  I can punch someone in the skull with my fist.  It's not magic, it's just the way that I make my fist allows me to do so without busting up my hand.


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## Ironbear24 (Jun 28, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> Not really a true recommendation as  is an general assumption based on how most people make a fist.  I can punch someone in the skull with my fist.  It's not magic, it's just the way that I make my fist allows me to do so without busting up my hand.



That reminds me when people swear you need gloves to punch a bag. Like honestly, people act like their hands are made of glass or something. Punch a damn bag the right way and you're fine, punch a tree, punch a wall, punch a dude in the forehead. You'll be fine with proper technique and fist to forearm alignment.


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## drop bear (Jun 28, 2017)

Ironbear24 said:


> That reminds me when people swear you need gloves to punch a bag. Like honestly, people act like their hands are made of glass or something. Punch a damn bag the right way and you're fine, punch a tree, punch a wall, punch a dude in the forehead. You'll be fine with proper technique and fist to forearm alignment.


Of course you will put in an hour a day on that bag right?

Only use gloves if you need your hands. Otherwise punch anything with anything.


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## NCRonin (Jun 28, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Of course you will put in an hour a day on that bag right?
> 
> Only use gloves if you need your hands. Otherwise punch anything with anything.





JowGaWolf said:


> Not really a true recommendation as  is an general assumption based on how most people make a fist.  I can punch someone in the skull with my fist.  It's not magic, it's just the way that I make my fist allows me to do so without busting up my hand.



Yes when using a technically perfect fist one can strike anything with a density not greatly exceeding bone. That said a eighth inch error in alignment or two inch miscalculation in distance can cause dangerous damage, especially if your in the middle of a real fight.
Having had to defend myself before I can tell you that that kind of thing can loose you a fight, also elbows, knees, and joint locks can cause a lot more damage much faster and more reliably than punching someone in the skull.

In fact unless it's in the temple striking the skull has little PRACTICAL effect in the real world. Sure a strike to the nose or jaw can disorient but both those areas are more forgiving than the skull.
In addition those kinds of punches from a guy my size (215lbs 6'4") can cause a lot of uncontrollable and potentially deadly damage I might not want to do to someone. 

Also while hitting a hard object might not cause harm hitting a more forgiving object can be more dangerous as it increases the likelihood of a rolled wrist. Agin your thinking that with proper technique you don't have to worry about that but again I'll remind you of the detrimental effect stress base of fine motor skills and control. 

Doesn't matter, I doubt you'll listen to me and the odds are in your favor if you train right you'll never have to worry about any of this.
Just remember Murphy's law, anything that CAN happen WILL eventually happen i.e. Better safe than sorry.


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 29, 2017)

NCRonin said:


> Yes when using a technically perfect fist one can strike anything with a density not greatly exceeding bone. That said a eighth inch error in alignment or two inch miscalculation in distance can cause dangerous damage, especially if your in the middle of a real fight.


 This is not the case with the fist that Bill Mattocks and I use, which is I specifically mentioned this fist.  It doesn't require the same alignment or structure that a jab uses.  As a matter of fact it doesn't even contact with the same knuckles that a jab hits with in the context of striking the skull.   The jabbing knuckles are out of harms way in terms of hitting the skull.  I always listen to what people have to say.  But this punch is not the one that you are thinking of.  There is no way the wrist will roll and there point of impact is much larger than the knuckle from a jab.








Below is the punch that a lot of people know.  If this is the only way a person knows how to strike then yes, there will be some risk to injuring the hand.


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## NCRonin (Jun 29, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> This is not the case with the fist that Bill Mattocks and I use, which is I specifically mentioned this fist.  It doesn't require the same alignment or structure that a jab uses.  As a matter of fact it doesn't even contact with the same knuckles that a jab hits with in the context of striking the skull.   The jabbing knuckles are out of harms way in terms of hitting the skull.  I always listen to what people have to say.  But this punch is not the one that you are thinking of.  There is no way the wrist will roll and there point of impact is much larger than the knuckle from a jab.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I am perfectly aware of the many varied punches, most of which are better than a typical "jab and cross". And I'm intimately familiar with most of them, my  repertoire includes Shotokan, muay thai, Wing Chun, Taekwondo, and Brazilian and Japanese JiuJitsu. In addition to dabling in a half dozen other Chinese martial arts. I'm not attempting to brag as I am far from mastering any of the above, but I am well versed in the striking methods your talking about. And I agree with my Sifu that there are safer, more reliable options than slamming my fist, full of small bones that never properly heal when broken, into someone else's skull.

That said there are always times when punching is a good option no doubt.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 29, 2017)

NCRonin said:


> Yes when using a technically perfect fist one can strike anything with a density not greatly exceeding bone. That said a eighth inch error in alignment or two inch miscalculation in distance can cause dangerous damage, especially if your in the middle of a real fight.


People say things like this a lot, and I don't understand it. Maybe it's because I started training young, but those "half a second responses" and "2 inch error" aren't things that have ever concerned me. When I'm in the moment, I throw a punch when I plan to throw it, and it generally works. If I throw a punch to an area, I'm going to hit that area, and if I'm not confident that I can, I make a "half second decision" to hit somewhere easier/larger. And I will do so with a proper fist, the same one I have thrown thousands of times in the past. The issues won't come from the timing or accuracy needed, or an issue with how I form a fist, the issues will come from my opponent doing something unexpected, resulting in a different body part/limb in the area I'm expecting to hit. The real issue is variability, not timing or accuracy.

Then again, maybe I just am lucky enough to avoid those two issues because of how early I started training, but I don't think that's the case.


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## NCRonin (Jun 29, 2017)

kempodisciple said:


> People say things like this a lot, and I don't understand it. Maybe it's because I started training young, but those "half a second responses" and "2 inch error" aren't things that have ever concerned me. When I'm in the moment, I throw a punch when I plan to throw it, and it generally works. If I throw a punch to an area, I'm going to hit that area, and if I'm not confident that I can, I make a "half second decision" to hit somewhere easier/larger. And I will do so with a proper fist, the same one I have thrown thousands of times in the past. The issues won't come from the timing or accuracy needed, or an issue with how I form a fist, the issues will come from my opponent doing something unexpected, resulting in a different body part/limb in the area I'm expecting to hit. The real issue is variability, not timing or accuracy.
> 
> Then again, maybe I just am lucky enough to avoid those two issues because of how early I started training, but I don't think that's the case.



Your quite right, in a perfect world training trumps most everything. I've been training since I was six, seriously since I was eleven, but a real fight isn't in an ideal world. You can throw a perfect punch at the perfect time and still fail, just like with ANY technique. The person your punching might trip at the last moment and double the power of your hit or cause you to hyperextend your elbow at the sudden lack of a rooted target. The only thing that makes other strikes/movements slighlty safer is it's harder to hurt yourself, with a punch a dozen things can suddenly and unexpectedly work against you and cause you a lot of pain. 

Be cautious of being to sure in your skill, it can fail you at unexpected moments.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 29, 2017)

NCRonin said:


> Your quite right, in a perfect world training trumps most everything. I've been training since I was six, seriously since I was eleven, but a real fight isn't in an ideal world. You can throw a perfect punch at the perfect time and still fail, just like with ANY technique. The person your punching might trip at the last moment and double the power of your hit or cause you to hyperextend your elbow at the sudden lack of a rooted target. The only thing that makes other strikes/movements slighlty safer is it's harder to hurt yourself, with a punch a dozen things can suddenly and unexpectedly work against you and cause you a lot of pain.
> 
> Be cautious of being to sure in your skill, it can fail you at unexpected moments.


Those issues would fall into the variability aspect though. If someone trips at the last second, it doesn't matter if the spot I was hitting was an eighth of an inch, two inches, or the entire midsection, I'm still going to miss.


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## NCRonin (Feb 3, 2019)

Well if anyone reads this, I've had this happen to me a few more times. It ends up healing after about 1.5 weeks. To clear some things up the issue isn't loose skin, the sensation I'm talking about is that of inflamed soft tissue that swells up between the knuckle bone and skin causing the relationship between the two in a new and alien way. Seems to be just inflammation. It happened less and less over a year and a half, now I'm doing more damage to the steel dummy than to my knuckles.


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## Ironbear24 (Feb 3, 2019)

NCRonin said:


> Well if anyone reads this, I've had this happen to me a few more times. It ends up healing after about 1.5 weeks. To clear some things up the issue isn't loose skin, the sensation I'm talking about is that of inflamed soft tissue that swells up between the knuckle bone and skin causing the relationship between the two in a new and alien way. Seems to be just inflammation. It happened less and less over a year and a half, now I'm doing more damage to the steel dummy than to my knuckles.



That is because your body gets stronger the more you condition your body. Glad to hear you have gotten stronger.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 4, 2019)

Ironbear24 said:


> That is because your body gets stronger the more you condition your body. Glad to hear you have gotten stronger.


Hey, long time, no see, IB! How are you?


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 4, 2019)

Ironbear24 said:


> That is because your body gets stronger the more you condition your body. Glad to hear you have gotten stronger.


Iron bear returns


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## Ironbear24 (Feb 4, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Hey, long time, no see, IB! How are you?





JowGaWolf said:


> Iron bear returns



Long story short. I ended up in a mental institution and now, I'm not as niave about the world as I used to be. I am getting my life back step by step.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 4, 2019)

Ironbear24 said:


> Long story short. I ended up in a mental institution and now, I'm not as niave about the world as I used to be. I am getting my life back step by step.


short story short.  Glad to see you back


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 4, 2019)

Ironbear24 said:


> Long story short. I ended up in a mental institution and now, I'm not as niave about the world as I used to be. I am getting my life back step by step.


Glad you came back.


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## Tony Dismukes (Feb 4, 2019)

Welcome back, IB.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 4, 2019)

Ironbear24 said:


> Long story short. I ended up in a mental institution and now, I'm not as niave about the world as I used to be. I am getting my life back step by step.


Well, welcome back. Hope everything works/is working out for you.


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