# Wing Chun/Tsun + Brazillian Jiujitsu =



## dungeonworks

The above link it to a video with a great camera angle my point is based from....that point being that BJJ and WC/T can easily flow together.  They both are designed for the smaller fighter to be a step more equal to a larger and likely stronger opponent.  This video shows a simple sweep by Rener Gracie to off balance and reverse position from an attacker that has you fully mounted.  This technique here has trapping (not WC/T, but not all that different is the intent of the trap), not just with hands but legs as well.  

In my opinion, I think BJJ would be a great addition to Wing Chun/Tsun and not all that difficult for the 'Chunner to grasp whilst staying to the 'Chun principles in most cases.


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## dungeonworks

Is it just me or does anyone else see off balancing, keeping oponent off of your center, using leverage and trapping???


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## Nolerama

I'm sure it's been done. And I think a striking art combined with a grappling art is a great combination. However, it's up to the practitioner to "blend" those styles so they work together.


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## arnisador

The large number of people doing JKD/BJJ are thinking similarly!


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## dungeonworks

Nolerama said:


> I'm sure it's been done. And I think a striking art combined with a grappling art is a great combination. However, it's up to the practitioner to "blend" those styles so they work together.



Yeah, I agree with that too.  I think the BJJ/WC flows better than say, Karate or TKD and BJJ does with the mechanics of both being more natural for lack of better word.

Do you guys do any Wing Chun/Tsun in your MMA work?  Which stand up do you guys use for the most part.  I know the MMA group I was training with used mostly Muay Thai and Boxing.


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## dungeonworks

arnisador said:


> The large number of people doing JKD/BJJ are thinking similarly!



Good point, but the JKD I have seen still uses Muay Thai for the most part.  The one JKD school I most recently looked at deffinately uses both MT and WC/T, just depends on the day as they focus Kali one day, Jun Fan, and MT/CSW the next.  

I started this thread more as an off shoot of another as an effort to not hijack it and also to see what other Chunners, both traditional only and cross trained ala Kamon, EBMAS...ect. do for ground work.  I was going to switch the JKD but new things have happened at my job and my new schedule messed that up...and I started missing Wing Chun pretty bad...much the same as I miss grappling at the MMA school.


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## arnisador

Where I train it's WC+MT+Boxing, with some FMA...plus a paired BJJ class.


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## Si-Je

dungeonworks said:


> Good point, but the JKD I have seen still uses Muay Thai for the most part. The one JKD school I most recently looked at deffinately uses both MT and WC/T, just depends on the day as they focus Kali one day, Jun Fan, and MT/CSW the next.
> 
> I started this thread more as an off shoot of another as an effort to not hijack it and also to see what other Chunners, both traditional only and cross trained ala Kamon, EBMAS...ect. do for ground work. I was going to switch the JKD but new things have happened at my job and my new schedule messed that up...and I started missing Wing Chun pretty bad...much the same as I miss grappling at the MMA school.


 
I think you all know what I would say to this.  So, I'll leave that alone.  
But, I didn't know that EBMAS cross trained grappling into their art.  I know Kamon does with BJJ, but I wasn't aware that EBMAS mixed grappling or BJJ in their style.

But, honestly, if you train WC/WT enough you'll be able to defend against a grappler or BJJ stylist without resorting to cross-training to "supplement" the art.  It's good to train against other styles to keep you sharp and such in a sparring fashion.  But, I've seen that cross-training really messes up a student's Wing Chun training.


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## Blindside

Si-Je said:


> But, honestly, if you train WC/WT enough you'll be able to defend against a grappler or BJJ stylist without resorting to cross-training to "supplement" the art. It's good to train against other styles to keep you sharp and such in a sparring fashion. But, I've seen that cross-training really messes up a student's Wing Chun training.


 
How much is "enough?" And by "defend" do you mean "not go to the ground?"  'Cause it didn't seem to work for these two:


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## seasoned

Blindside said:


> How much is "enough?" And by "defend" do you mean "not go to the ground?" 'Cause it didn't seem to work for these two:


 


Let me add that while he is mounting you he is open for a groin strike. I see an elbow fitting in very nicely. Is this sport or SD, am I reading this wrong. If so I will go on to the next thread.


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## seasoned

seasoned said:


> Let me add that while he is mounting you he is open for a groin strike. I see an elbow fitting in very nicely. Is this sport or SD, am I reading this wrong. If so I will go on to the next thread.


 
Sorry, I was looking at this first youtube.




 

The one you show is a bit differant.


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## dungeonworks

Si-Je said:


> I think you all know what I would say to this.  So, I'll leave that alone.
> But, I didn't know that EBMAS cross trained grappling into their art.  I know Kamon does with BJJ, but I wasn't aware that EBMAS mixed grappling or BJJ in their style.
> 
> But, honestly, if you train WC/WT enough you'll be able to defend against a grappler or BJJ stylist without resorting to cross-training to "supplement" the art.  It's good to train against other styles to keep you sharp and such in a sparring fashion.  But, I've seen that cross-training really messes up a student's Wing Chun training.




My Bad!!!!  I meant Alan Orr's Wing Chun!!!  I was thinking other cross training with EBMAS and FMA.  Was just on the phone with a friend talking about that.

In my opinion, I do not believe any one system has the answer for everything, just to clarify my thoughts....not even Wing Chun.  As you can see by the video posted, even Wing Chun masters could use help from a grappling system...ANY GRAPPLING SYSTEM!!! LOL  That tape is an embarrassment to Wing Chun, Ving Tsun, Weng Chun....EVERY flavor of Wing Chun.


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## dungeonworks

seasoned said:


> Sorry, I was looking at this first youtube.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The one you show is a bit differant.




I still agree with what you said originally, he is open for a groin shot....IF you could get one fired off in time.  That's the thing with any technique in any situation...the IF variable.  I have been in that predicament in street fights a couple times and usually, Bob the Brawler will be raining blows to your face and that leaves me occupied trying to cover and better my position....which is very hard when it is a wrestler.  Heck, I tried grabbing the one guys balls but his jeans were so tight they acted as a bit if a shield as my grip couldn't penetrate the denim of the Jordaches'!  LOL  (Yes, this happened in the late 80's!)


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## Yoshiyahu

Just curious...why do you guys like ground fighting so much?Does it give you an advantage when you go against a skilled striker who you can not defeat standing up?


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## seasoned

Yoshiyahu said:


> Just curious...why do you guys like ground fighting so much?Does it give you an advantage when you go against a skilled striker who you can not defeat standing up?


 
This is only conversation. As you know from my past posts I am a stand up fighter with some ground capabilities. In the art of war we need to be functional in all situations, and I believe any traditional art, is all inclusive. We have 4 limbs to strike with, but I am not naïve to think I wont end up on my back. If I do the fight is not over, just another position to strike from. I personally dont care about winning or losing, just surviving, and stopping the threat.


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## Si-Je

Okay, in the video the guy on the bottom has both his arms locked out on the opponet's single arm.. While you do this the guy on top punches your lights out with their other free hand. WT/WC does not commit both hands to one arm of the attacker. Grade 1 stuff. Basics. Big no no.
A groin shot with the elbow is great here, I would prefer chain punching the groin, that would bring their face to where I can reach it, and then chian punch their face as you roll them off with your hips.
You can still use your hips to roll them off, anyone would do this. 
You can also use your chi sau to defend while your on the bottom, whether they punch at you, or try to lock out and arm or choke. 
This is just basic anti-grappling the first stuff you learn, chi sau on the ground comes in a little latter.
What you do striking on your feet, you do on the ground. Your defelction on your feet you use on the ground. 

As for that old moldy chueng and emin fight, I've seen that video so many times, and heard people say, "see! grappling is the way to go!" Sifu Emin did it!
So.
That was before he developed the anti-grappling. It may have inspired him to create it in the first place, who knows. But, what he did was NOT BJJ. Nowhere near. Just because it's a ground fighting technique doesn't mean they all come from BJJ. 
And no, I totally don't see ANY WC/WT concepts or principles in BJJ at all. If anything, these grapplers and BJJ stylists have already defeated you in the head. You already believe there is just no way to keep from being taken to the ground. So, you WILL be taken to the ground in a fight, because you've already decided that outcome.
Another rule and concept of WC/WT: don't anticipate.

Here's some interesting video instructional to Wing Chun concept on the ground.





 
The guy he's demonstrating on he states was a "long time in Ju-jitsu" or wrestling or whatever.  At the end he "grapples" with the guy to demonstrate why this isn't advantageous to you.
Learn this stuff if your a chunner, I thought everyone did this because hubbie teaches this.  I didn't know he mixed two masters my first two years of training, or what that ment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uynAfOSiqmg


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## jarrod

Yoshiyahu said:


> Just curious...why do you guys like ground fighting so much?Does it give you an advantage when you go against a skilled striker who you can not defeat standing up?


 
personally speaking, the ground comes naturally to me.  it's not a belief that groundfighting is in itself superior, it's just superior for me.  



Si-Je said:


> Okay, in the video the guy on the bottom has both his arms locked out on the opponet's single arm.. While you do this the guy on top punches your lights out with their other free hand. WT/WC does not commit both hands to one arm of the attacker. Grade 1 stuff. Basics. Big no no.
> A groin shot with the elbow is great here, I would prefer chain punching the groin, that would bring their face to where I can reach it, and then chian punch their face as you roll them off with your hips.
> You can still use your hips to roll them off, anyone would do this.
> You can also use your chi sau to defend while your on the bottom, whether they punch at you, or try to lock out and arm or choke.
> This is just basic anti-grappling the first stuff you learn, chi sau on the ground comes in a little latter.
> What you do striking on your feet, you do on the ground. Your defelction on your feet you use on the ground.
> 
> As for that old moldy chueng and emin fight, I've seen that video so many times, and heard people say, "see! grappling is the way to go!" Sifu Emin did it!
> So.
> That was before he developed the anti-grappling. It may have inspired him to create it in the first place, who knows. But, what he did was NOT BJJ. Nowhere near. Just because it's a ground fighting technique doesn't mean they all come from BJJ.
> And no, I totally don't see ANY WC/WT concepts or principles in BJJ at all. If anything, these grapplers and BJJ stylists have already defeated you in the head. You already believe there is just no way to keep from being taken to the ground. So, you WILL be taken to the ground in a fight, because you've already decided that outcome.
> Another rule and concept of WC/WT: don't anticipate.
> 
> Here's some interesting video instructional to Wing Chun concept on the ground.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The guy he's demonstrating on he states was a "long time in Ju-jitsu" or wrestling or whatever. At the end he "grapples" with the guy to demonstrate why this isn't advantageous to you.
> Learn this stuff if your a chunner, I thought everyone did this because hubbie teaches this. I didn't know he mixed two masters my first two years of training, or what that ment.


 

the problem with emin's stuff that i've seen is that he usually is demonstrating how to anti-grapple someone who is not a good grappler.  it seems like it would be effective against an untrained guy who maybe tries to drag you to the ground, but his techniques often seem to capitalize on one or two crucial mistakes that a good grappler shouldn't make.

jf


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## Yoshiyahu

So let me put things in to focus...What Si-Je appears to be saying is BJJ sucks..It sucks bad...its one side and if you use it in street your gonna get hurt bad...BJJ is over commercialize...But I could be wrong...she may not be saying that...

I also think she is saying that grappling and wrestling are good arts...Just not BJJ...if you practice Judo, JuiJitsu or Aikido or even Wrestling thats good. But BJJ sucks bad...Its a horrible Art...if you want to combine arts combine Judo and WC or Juijitsu and WC...But leave that BJJ alone...

So tell me am I correct in what you thinking Si-Je...if I am wrong I stand corrected...lol..


I personally have not met any BJJ fighters. So I can not judge rightfully. I have not had the priviledge of that experience. But I think the art depends on the purpose...I could understand why somepeople would want to mesh the two..Their thinking I will gain skills fighting and submissions on ground from BJJ and standing fighting from WC...chances are in streets you may use more WC than BJJ...and if you go to ground you might get stabbed or stomped by ten size tens in your dome...let me make simple...the average thug aint fighting one on one...They bringing their friends...to jump you...two big thugs is enough to injury you bad if you do a take down...So just becareful...But as for the cage...I don't know...how is bjj doing?





Si-Je said:


> Okay, in the video the guy on the bottom has both his arms locked out on the opponet's single arm.. While you do this the guy on top punches your lights out with their other free hand. WT/WC does not commit both hands to one arm of the attacker. Grade 1 stuff. Basics. Big no no.
> A groin shot with the elbow is great here, I would prefer chain punching the groin, that would bring their face to where I can reach it, and then chian punch their face as you roll them off with your hips.
> You can still use your hips to roll them off, anyone would do this.
> You can also use your chi sau to defend while your on the bottom, whether they punch at you, or try to lock out and arm or choke.
> This is just basic anti-grappling the first stuff you learn, chi sau on the ground comes in a little latter.
> What you do striking on your feet, you do on the ground. Your defelction on your feet you use on the ground.
> 
> As for that old moldy chueng and emin fight, I've seen that video so many times, and heard people say, "see! grappling is the way to go!" Sifu Emin did it!
> So.
> That was before he developed the anti-grappling. It may have inspired him to create it in the first place, who knows. But, what he did was NOT BJJ. Nowhere near. Just because it's a ground fighting technique doesn't mean they all come from BJJ.
> And no, I totally don't see ANY WC/WT concepts or principles in BJJ at all. If anything, these grapplers and BJJ stylists have already defeated you in the head. You already believe there is just no way to keep from being taken to the ground. So, you WILL be taken to the ground in a fight, because you've already decided that outcome.
> Another rule and concept of WC/WT: don't anticipate.
> 
> Here's some interesting video instructional to Wing Chun concept on the ground.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The guy he's demonstrating on he states was a "long time in Ju-jitsu" or wrestling or whatever. At the end he "grapples" with the guy to demonstrate why this isn't advantageous to you.
> Learn this stuff if your a chunner, I thought everyone did this because hubbie teaches this. I didn't know he mixed two masters my first two years of training, or what that ment.


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## dungeonworks

Yoshiyahu said:


> Just curious...why do you guys like ground fighting so much?Does it give you an advantage when you go against a skilled striker who you can not defeat standing up?




Just as Seasoned mentioned...it is another place to be effective.  I too am a striker and would much rather pound it out with someone rather than roll, but...at least eighty percent of my adulthood streetfights went to the ground if not only for a few moments.  Sometimes, I was able to out scramble and stand while others, it was too much for me to out wrestle a better grappler.  In a nutshell, if I am facing a quicker striker that is not as strong as I am, you bet your **** I want to get him to the ground and negate the barrage of fists in my face.  If I am facing a stronger guy, no way!  I would rather pick him apart or make him want to stop by fighting at a longer range (think kickboxing or Tae Kwon Do).  If that is not possible, then I want the arsenal and attributes I am learning in Wing Chun.  You see, I am a Koei-Kan-Karate and kickboxer learning Wing Chun at this point.  I have not the skill in Wing Chun to be able to rely on it at this point but that is changing slowly.  I also trained MMA/Grappling for almost a couple of years and sparring MMA rules gave me a new light on how "I" aproach my training and helped clarify what I want to work on.  Throw in the fact that I am 36 and just not the spring chicken I once was and the window of oppurtunity for me to fight the way I have relied upon to this point in my life, well....sometime soon, I will not have youth on my side nor the ability to rely on athletic ability alone.  It took untill my early thirties to realize I am getting older and my atheletic attributes are slowly eroding.  Wing Chun fits the bill for me.

To make a long story short, I am training with the fact in mind that grappling and kickboxing are not going to be my best face card to play when needed in the coming years.  I see 50+ year old men in Wing Chun that would SMOKE me on my best day in a fight and rather quickly to boot.  Same with the Fillipino styles.  The Chuners and Fillipino guys aren't limping and crippled like so many elder players in the kickboxing, Judo, or MMA crowd.  The ones that are limping and hobbling around still can turn it on using Wing Chun.  That's what I am after.  That's why I study Wing Chun with an eye on grappling.  _*NOBODY*_ has the choice in every altercation to fight the range you are most comfortable and therefore you need to at least be familiar with grappling because you may end up there from the start eg....jumped, slip and fall, trip..ect.


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## dungeonworks

Si-Je said:


> Okay, in the video the guy on the bottom has both his arms locked out on the opponet's single arm.. While you do this the guy on top punches your lights out with their other free hand. WT/WC does not commit both hands to one arm of the attacker. Grade 1 stuff. Basics. Big no no.
> A groin shot with the elbow is great here, I would prefer chain punching the groin, that would bring their face to where I can reach it, and then chian punch their face as you roll them off with your hips.
> You can still use your hips to roll them off, anyone would do this.
> You can also use your chi sau to defend while your on the bottom, whether they punch at you, or try to lock out and arm or choke.
> This is just basic anti-grappling the first stuff you learn, chi sau on the ground comes in a little latter.
> What you do striking on your feet, you do on the ground. Your defelction on your feet you use on the ground.
> 
> As for that old moldy chueng and emin fight, I've seen that video so many times, and heard people say, "see! grappling is the way to go!" Sifu Emin did it!
> So.
> That was before he developed the anti-grappling. It may have inspired him to create it in the first place, who knows. But, what he did was NOT BJJ. Nowhere near. Just because it's a ground fighting technique doesn't mean they all come from BJJ.
> And no, I totally don't see ANY WC/WT concepts or principles in BJJ at all. If anything, these grapplers and BJJ stylists have already defeated you in the head. You already believe there is just no way to keep from being taken to the ground. So, you WILL be taken to the ground in a fight, because you've already decided that outcome.
> Another rule and concept of WC/WT: don't anticipate.
> 
> Here's some interesting video instructional to Wing Chun concept on the ground.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The guy he's demonstrating on he states was a "long time in Ju-jitsu" or wrestling or whatever.  At the end he "grapples" with the guy to demonstrate why this isn't advantageous to you.
> Learn this stuff if your a chunner, I thought everyone did this because hubbie teaches this.  I didn't know he mixed two masters my first two years of training, or what that ment.



Groin shots are not always fight enders.  Actually, in fights I have seen in person or been in myself, I have never seen one end from them.  Also, I personally never said BJJ uses Wing Chun principles.  What I said was that some principles of Wing Chun can be used in BJJ and may actually work good.  Carlson Gracie Jr. said this as well and did seminars with a well known Wing Chun Sifu to illistrate this point.

It is no secret that you personally dislike BJJ, and that is totally fine and I personally respect your opinion on that.  I can't say one system is better than the other because I see them complementary to eachother...but that is from what I see and have experienced.  Will I feel the same way in 5yrs or more, once I have grasped Wing Chun to a functional level?  I don't know....cannot answer that at this moment.  I have Kickboxing and Karate attributes thoroughly ingrained in my body at this time and am open to seeing anything from any style and call it as I see it and have seen it.

We can pick apart any technique or any scenario and look from the outside in and all see a dozen ways to avoid or take advatage in that situation.  What I am after is doing it as efficiently as possible as it happens from a first person perspective.  I have been in plenty of fights to have a good understanding of how I do things and where I would like to improve.  Sensitivity, sticking, redirecting, controlling the centerline, and getting back to a position where I can do that from the ground is one of them.  Training BJJ and other ground work looks to be a great place to start to accomplish that.  The Gracie's have a library of video proof and have put their money where their mouth's are to prove their system on mats, tile floors, and beaches.  What more proof could I need?

As far as BJJ living on over marketing.....HAAAAAHAHAHAHA!  That is good!  They have one of the most comprehensive and best quality control systems in their ranking than in anyother martial art I have seen.  A Purple belt in one school is going to be on par with a Purple belt in another.  They have kept good controls in their ranking quality.  I cannot say the same for Karate, TKD, or other traditional styles.  I have not seen enough practitioners from other Wing Chun/Tsun schools to make that asessment nor would I know how to judge that either.  I do know that aside the Emin video and Alan Orr's student's fighting MMA on YouTube, I have seen nothing of Wing Chun in action to prove or disprove the style....just the abilities of the guys I train with.  I won't mention the two guys from the first UFC's.


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## MJS

jarrod said:


> the problem with emin's stuff that i've seen is that he usually is demonstrating how to anti-grapple someone who is not a good grappler. it seems like it would be effective against an untrained guy who maybe tries to drag you to the ground, but his techniques often seem to capitalize on one or two crucial mistakes that a good grappler shouldn't make.
> 
> jf


 
I was thinking the same thing.  And at risk of sounding like the other group...you know, the ones that eat, breath, sleep and poop BJJ...I do think it would be interesting to see the art (WC) against a grappler who is really working BJJ, not dummying.  Frankly, I'd love to see the Gracie/Emin fight, but I doubt that'll ever happen.  I'd love to see a good WC fighter in the UFC or similar event, as well.  



Yoshiyahu said:


> So let me put things in to focus...What Si-Je appears to be saying is BJJ sucks..It sucks bad...its one side and if you use it in street your gonna get hurt bad...BJJ is over commercialize...But I could be wrong...she may not be saying that...
> 
> I also think she is saying that grappling and wrestling are good arts...Just not BJJ...if you practice Judo, JuiJitsu or Aikido or even Wrestling thats good. But BJJ sucks bad...Its a horrible Art...if you want to combine arts combine Judo and WC or Juijitsu and WC...But leave that BJJ alone...
> 
> So tell me am I correct in what you thinking Si-Je...if I am wrong I stand corrected...lol..


 
Umm...yeah, that about sums it up I think.




> I personally have not met any BJJ fighters. So I can not judge rightfully. I have not had the priviledge of that experience. But I think the art depends on the purpose...I could understand why somepeople would want to mesh the two..Their thinking I will gain skills fighting and submissions on ground from BJJ and standing fighting from WC...chances are in streets you may use more WC than BJJ...and if you go to ground you might get stabbed or stomped by ten size tens in your dome...let me make simple...the average thug aint fighting one on one...They bringing their friends...to jump you...two big thugs is enough to injury you bad if you do a take down...So just becareful...But as for the cage...I don't know...how is bjj doing?


 
Yup, that sums it up.  IMO, I feel that it gives great ground defense/offense.  In the real world, would I want to roll around looking for a submission?  Of course not, and for the reasons that have been mentioned countless times.


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## arnisador

Yoshiyahu said:


> Just curious...why do you guys like ground fighting so much?Does it give you an advantage when you go against a skilled striker who you can not defeat standing up?



It certainly could...drop below a chain punch for a double-leg takedown to change the dynamic of the fight--but it's also a matter of being prepared!


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## Si-Je

Yes, you have it! lol! Leave that BJJ alone. hahaha.
BJJ hasn't been winning so much in the cage either, strikers are winning, and alot of these big champs are devoted martial artists to their respective styles.  Good old Iceman, Kempo guy, that Japanese Karate guy he's 100% martial artist (can't remeber his name) then good old Cung Lee, he's wushu champ and now middle heavyweight champ in MMA for Elite Sports I believe.  
Ya'll dig up the names, don't have time.

Plus, what I'm also saying is that once you really get the WC/WT concepts and techniques down you don't need the Judo, Ju-jitsu, Aikido, whatever.  You start to strip away the inessentials.

As for Carlson Gracie Jr., I don't care about what he advises as practical fighting.  I don't care what he says is Wing Chun.  Yes, I see ya'll like the BJJ, it's like crack to you or something, can't let it alone.  Here on a Wing Chun forum getting all amped up on BJJ posting their videos giving free advertising. lol!
It's very interesting the way the collective memory and thought works and you see it in action here.  I'm fighting for thought.  Thought to stay pure to what I train without perverting, twisting, or watering it down with other arts concepts of fighting.  This is spreading like a disease, and the cure will be VIDEO PROOF! (the crowd goes wild!!!)
We will work very dilligently on gaining a "video library" of whatever "fights" we can get hubbie into.  Since he's the "Sifu" and that's what ya'll will want to see.  But, this will take time, and volenteers! lol! Which we've had bum luck getting big guys to come and sparr with hubbie.  We've recruited right out of the gyms where the guys pump the big iron, to other MMA schools, etc.  No luck, no one wants to really do it when it comes right down to it.  So, you'll just have to be happy with video from him and students, he'll get some more marine guys in class soon that train MCMAP.  They'll be great!  Nice and stiff, rigid and tough to take a punch.  And fisty (non-compliant) lol!
When we get the funds in the next couple of months we will register hubbie, get the medical ('cuz he be older man), and all that jazz and hook up a nice little cage match for ya'll. 
I'm sorry the cage match I posted from the other school in New York wasn't enough for your appetites.  Will try to find more soon.
But, I'm afraid your just going to have to wait.



Yoshiyahu said:


> So let me put things in to focus...What Si-Je appears to be saying is BJJ sucks..It sucks bad...its one side and if you use it in street your gonna get hurt bad...BJJ is over commercialize...But I could be wrong...she may not be saying that...
> 
> I also think she is saying that grappling and wrestling are good arts...Just not BJJ...if you practice Judo, JuiJitsu or Aikido or even Wrestling thats good. But BJJ sucks bad...Its a horrible Art...if you want to combine arts combine Judo and WC or Juijitsu and WC...But leave that BJJ alone...
> 
> So tell me am I correct in what you thinking Si-Je...if I am wrong I stand corrected...lol..
> 
> 
> I personally have not met any BJJ fighters. So I can not judge rightfully. I have not had the priviledge of that experience. But I think the art depends on the purpose...I could understand why somepeople would want to mesh the two..Their thinking I will gain skills fighting and submissions on ground from BJJ and standing fighting from WC...chances are in streets you may use more WC than BJJ...and if you go to ground you might get stabbed or stomped by ten size tens in your dome...let me make simple...the average thug aint fighting one on one...They bringing their friends...to jump you...two big thugs is enough to injury you bad if you do a take down...So just becareful...But as for the cage...I don't know...how is bjj doing?


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## Yoshiyahu

Okay...Thats actually one of the points I was sharing with Si-Je...some westerners are better boxers or ground wrestlers...So for them to gravitate to wrestling or cross train makes their style come alive...because they usually have to make up for what they lack in their art with something their body is design for...Some people are design to wrestlers...I got a friend he is like 6'4" and 280lbs on a diet. lol...But he would do well using Wrestling techniques and Muay Thai In my humble opinion...I would think Wing Chun would be good for him...but since he so big...bigger than the average street brawler...He has alot strength anyway...so Wrestling would be a great art for him...then he adds some Muay Thai too it...He would be a dangerous guy...I mean the minute he kicks someone with one of those logs...they going to buckle...Put this way...If This guy got six months of training in Muay Thai....I doubt Kimbo Slice would fight in backyard street fight. An then with his size advantage the average five eleven six foot guy would no chance even wrestling him...

So I can see some advantage...but if your a little guy...you may want a style that relies on knock punches and speed...little guys are more equip to styles that have skills in movements...this is what will benefit them..



jarrod said:


> personally speaking, the ground comes naturally to me. it's not a belief that groundfighting is in itself superior, it's just superior for me.


----------



## jarrod

Yoshiyahu said:


> Okay...Thats actually one of the points I was sharing with Si-Je...some westerners are better boxers or ground wrestlers...So for them to gravitate to wrestling or cross train makes their style come alive...because they usually have to make up for what they lack in their art with something their body is design for...Some people are design to wrestlers...I got a friend he is like 6'4" and 280lbs on a diet. lol...But he would do well using Wrestling techniques and Muay Thai In my humble opinion...I would think Wing Chun would be good for him...but since he so big...bigger than the average street brawler...He has alot strength anyway...so Wrestling would be a great art for him...then he adds some Muay Thai too it...He would be a dangerous guy...I mean the minute he kicks someone with one of those logs...they going to buckle...Put this way...If This guy got six months of training in Muay Thai....I doubt Kimbo Slice would fight in backyard street fight. An then with his size advantage the average five eleven six foot guy would no chance even wrestling him...
> 
> So I can see some advantage...but if your a little guy...you may want a style that relies on knock punches and speed...little guys are more equip to styles that have skills in movements...this is what will benefit them..


 


jarrod said:


> personally speaking, the ground comes naturally to me. it's not a belief that groundfighting is in itself superior, it's just superior for me.


 
one of the things i disagree with si-je about is that jujitsu secretly relies on strength. when i started grappling i was 150lbs, & with a little practice i was able to tap guys 200-300lbs. so i know that with proper technique jujitsu can overcome strength. i don't train bjj, & i have my criticisms of it, but i have trained with enough bjj guys that i respect it. virtually every mma champion out there has some training in bjj, even if it's not their primary style. fedor doesn't, but he is excellent at sambo & judo, which is still grappling.

jf


----------



## KamonGuy2

Firstly, to answer the whole 'BJJ hasn't been doing so well in the cage lately' comment by Sije - When fighters fight in the cage, they come from one end of the cage to the other and meet in the middle, meaning that the striker has the first move (ie unless the BJJ guy runs in and goes for a takedown, he will have to receive shots from the striker)

You will find that most MMA guys use BJJ, just like most MMA guys also use striking. Hence why it is called MMA...

Going back to the original thread, it is not essential that chunners learn BJJ, but it is extremely important that they learn some kind of ground game

In Kamon, although BJJ is encouraged, Master Chan would be just as happy to see his senior students proficient in catch wrestling or sambo etc

You cannot live your wing chun lives with the motto 'I will never go to ground'. In most cases it is extremely difficult for a chunner to get taken down, but think of situations where a person pushes you back over a car bonnet, a table in a pub, or when you trip over or get another person tackling you from behind

If people are so adamant and blind to say they will NEVER get taken down, then I don't really have time for intelligent conversation with them

BJJ is a good match in wing chun because it is more about sticking and trapping your opponent than most grappling styles. It also doesn't worry too much about strength. Obviously it is always better to have a bit of strength, but because BJJ works using leverage and angles, it is a very good fit with Wing Chun

Remember that you really only need the basic principles of BJJ. I am definately no master, but if I get taken down, I know basic positions that will greatly increase my chances of safety. Generally you always want to get back to the position you started from (standing up), so I don't work too much on things like arm bars or locks because they are more for sport


----------



## MJS

jarrod said:


> one of the things i disagree with si-je about is that jujitsu secretly relies on strength. when i started grappling i was 150lbs, & with a little practice i was able to tap guys 200-300lbs. so i know that with proper technique jujitsu can overcome strength. i don't train bjj, & i have my criticisms of it, but i have trained with enough bjj guys that i respect it. virtually every mma champion out there has some training in bjj, even if it's not their primary style. fedor doesn't, but he is excellent at sambo & judo, which is still grappling.
> 
> jf


 
This is exactly the point I was trying to get across as well.  If we look back at Helio Gracie, he states that he adapted the art to suit him, due to his small frame.  It apparently worked for him. Hmmmm.......


----------



## MJS

Kamon Guy said:


> Firstly, to answer the whole 'BJJ hasn't been doing so well in the cage lately' comment by Sije - When fighters fight in the cage, they come from one end of the cage to the other and meet in the middle, meaning that the striker has the first move (ie unless the BJJ guy runs in and goes for a takedown, he will have to receive shots from the striker)


 
Agreed.  One thing that I've noticed is that the fighters of today have changed their focus from what the UFC used to be.  Early days had shown a style vs. style match, where Royce used his JJ skill to dominate.  He clinched, got a strong position and went in for the sub.  Today, we see the G&P much more, yet fighters do have some sort of grappling background.



> You will find that most MMA guys use BJJ, just like most MMA guys also use striking. Hence why it is called MMA...


 
Agree.



> Going back to the original thread, it is not essential that chunners learn BJJ, but it is extremely important that they learn some kind of ground game
> 
> In Kamon, although BJJ is encouraged, Master Chan would be just as happy to see his senior students proficient in catch wrestling or sambo etc


 
Agree, and while I have mentioned BJJ alot, I've also mentioned other grappling arts, ie Sambo, Judo and even working with a wrestler, seeing that this was the topic of the thread.



> You cannot live your wing chun lives with the motto 'I will never go to ground'. In most cases it is extremely difficult for a chunner to get taken down, but think of situations where a person pushes you back over a car bonnet, a table in a pub, or when you trip over or get another person tackling you from behind
> 
> If people are so adamant and blind to say they will NEVER get taken down, then I don't really have time for intelligent conversation with them


 
Sadly, this mindset is present in every art.  I hear Kenpo guys talking about solid stances, etc., but I'm sorry, if it was that easy, I'd think that the MMA guys would be going out to find this secret solid stance method, and adapt it to their training so they'd never get taken down.  Of course, they also seem to forget that its possible to slip, so having knowledge of getting back up safely is important as well. 



> BJJ is a good match in wing chun because it is more about sticking and trapping your opponent than most grappling styles. It also doesn't worry too much about strength. Obviously it is always better to have a bit of strength, but because BJJ works using leverage and angles, it is a very good fit with Wing Chun


 
Agreed.  IMHO the majority of success starts with a solid position.  If you dont have a solid position, where everything is just right, any sub. you attempt will most likely fail.  I roll with one of my teachers and he will get me in the side mount.  Its so hard to move as well as breath, due to the fact that he has everything so tight.  



> Remember that you really only need the basic principles of BJJ. I am definately no master, but if I get taken down, I know basic positions that will greatly increase my chances of safety. Generally you always want to get back to the position you started from (standing up), so I don't work too much on things like arm bars or locks because they are more for sport


 
Exactly!  I'm far from a master myself.  Likewise, I work the basics and its worked for me.   I love to roll and that is one of my 2009 goals...to get on the mat on a more regular basis.


----------



## profesormental

Greetings.

First of all, grappling is FUN to me and my students!!

Just as we play Chi Sao, we play grappling!

Specially for competitive minded people, it is a nice set of rules that you can go all out and control a person.

I started BJJ to learn how to defend against it... and I fell in love with just playing around and having fun! Like a sport.

Some play basketball, I grapple and kickbox and fight!

In the end, it just depends how you train. Biomechanical principles as applied to sports or combat are the fundamental laws that have to be used and applied.

When we train Wing Chun for self defense and personal combat... it is very different than when we play grappling or Chi Sao.

Yet when my objectives are restraint and control of attacker, then I don't blow up their face with strikes... I can use Chin Na that has an expanded toolbox of Kano JuJutsu in it. (BJJ is old school Kano Jujutsu, just in case you don't like BJJ...   )

So we have sports training time for different competitions. This training slot we can use for grappling. We also train different kickboxing rules, like San Da, and sometimes mix it up MMA style.

We have a slot for learning good body mechanics and drills.

And we have slots for personal combat applications to scenarios and self defense simulations.

So, In my case, I just like training in grappling/BJJ and have found good learnings in it. Many other reasons, yet that is the one that matters the most.

Juan M. Mercado


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## dungeonworks

Si-Je said:


> Okay, in the video the guy on the bottom has both his arms locked out on the opponet's single arm.. While you do this the guy on top punches your lights out with their other free hand. WT/WC does not commit both hands to one arm of the attacker. Grade 1 stuff. Basics. Big no no.



You may think that this technique is applied that slow in real time.  It isn't...it happens quickly.  If the guy is "punching your lights out", he cannot be stabilizing himself with his arm and leg trapped at the same time you send him flying.  Think of a kickstand being knocked out from under a bicycle.



Si-Je said:


> A groin shot with the elbow is great here, I would prefer chain punching the groin, that would bring their face to where I can reach it, and then chian punch their face as you roll them off with your hips.
> You can still use your hips to roll them off, anyone would do this.
> You can also use your chi sau to defend while your on the bottom, whether they punch at you, or try to lock out and arm or choke.
> This is just basic anti-grappling the first stuff you learn, chi sau on the ground comes in a little latter.



There again, coulda', shoulda', woulda'.  Easy to see from third person view, while the people are going slow to show the technique.  It is used much faster than that and thier are variables not seen from 3rd person.  Besides that, groin strikes are far too overated.



Si-Je said:


> What you do striking on your feet, you do on the ground. Your defelction on your feet you use on the ground.



Yeah, one can really let their hands go with a BJJ guy on top of you...totally unimpeded!!! :BSmeter: 



Si-Je said:


> As for that old moldy chueng and emin fight, I've seen that video so many times, and heard people say, "see! grappling is the way to go!" Sifu Emin did it!
> So.
> That was before he developed the anti-grappling. It may have inspired him to create it in the first place, who knows. But, what he did was NOT BJJ. Nowhere near. Just because it's a ground fighting technique doesn't mean they all come from BJJ.
> And no, I totally don't see ANY WC/WT concepts or principles in BJJ at all. If anything, these grapplers and BJJ stylists have already defeated you in the head. You already believe there is just no way to keep from being taken to the ground. So, you WILL be taken to the ground in a fight, because you've already decided that outcome.
> Another rule and concept of WC/WT: don't anticipate.
> 
> Here's some interesting video instructional to Wing Chun concept on the ground.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The guy he's demonstrating on he states was a "long time in Ju-jitsu" or wrestling or whatever.  At the end he "grapples" with the guy to demonstrate why this isn't advantageous to you.
> Learn this stuff if your a chunner, I thought everyone did this because hubbie teaches this.  I didn't know he mixed two masters my first two years of training, or what that ment.



When I started this thread, it wasn't a Wing Chun vs BJJ, nor has anyone said to use it over Wing Chun.....


Oh hell, nevermind.... :argue:

You're right.


----------



## Steve

I'm content to allow Si-Je her zeal for keeping her wing chun pure.  I just can't allow the BJJ not doing well "in the cage" comment to go.  UFC 91 was a showcase, between Maia's total domination of Nate Quarry and win by RNC, Hazelett's win by armbar over McRory in what was one of the best examples of pure rubber guard I've ever seen, and Kenny Florian's RNC win over Joe Stephenson, who's base is wrestling and has himself won many fights by guillotine. 

It goes in waves, but every fighter has a strong grappling foundation.


----------



## Si-Je

Okay guys, I get hyper and am not clear sometimes.  BJJ has been beaten in the ring several times, it is totally possible to defeat a takedown with striking concepts, that's my main point.  It is possible to use 100% wing chun to defend against a wrestler/BJJ whatever strickly ground fighting style.  It has been done numerous times.
Yes, people have been tapped out.

To break a joint only takes 2-6 lbs of concentrated pressure.  (depending on the joint, i.e. elbow, knee, wrist) Muscle built around the joint can help and hinder a person usually taking away some flexability if one bulks up too much, but that muscle mass can protect the joint making it harder to break or "submit".
So, yes, it doen't take alot of strength to submit or break an arm on a larger opponent.  
BUT..
That larger opponent has other limbs, moving, punching, kicking, elbowing limbs to deal with while you concentrate all your time and effort on one joint.  See?

I started adapting WT/WC concepts to the JJJ I used to know so well, just to find out it stopped being JJJ technique.  WT/WC has joint locks too, but they are done very differently.  They are usually done with only one hand or arm on the joint, with no "lock out" on the arm or wrist.  This leaves your other hand free to deflect or strike as needed.  This doesn't force the joint lock, and if the lock is lost you continue chainpunching or flow into whatever is needed to continue to attack the opponent.
So, what I thought was using JJJ with WC/WT concepts BECAME wing chun.
To commit your entire body into a joint lock and force the submission does require more strength than is needed to execute a joint lock.  When I wrap my whole body around a guys arm, thus clinging to him while he picks me up off the ground and slams me on my back, neck or head is just not effecient!  And it's painful, and to me silly.  When I can aquire joint locks in other fashions that are not so harmful and dangerous to my small frame.

No, I don't like BJJ, we all know that, because I see it as 
largely and grossly inefficient.  It takes too long to get into position for most of those techniques, too much effort, too much energy spent on one movement, too much commitment of the entire body for too long on one set technique.

I cringe to imagine a small woman doing these techniques on a large man on the concrete in the street, with nails, glass, wood, trash, and oil, etc... The road rash and body slames required to fall to the ground and execute these techniques I see as a horrible danger to anyone trying to use this in street or self-defense situations.  
Like i've said: can you do these techniques between two parked cars in the parking lot, on a staircase, in a narrow hallway, in a bus isle, INSIDE a parked car, in your bathroom (especially if it's as tiny as mine! lol!)  Wing Chun is designed for these situations specifically and these are your battle grounds in the real world, not some octogon, not some cage.  If one feels they NEED a "ground game" for the cage, great, use BJJ (I still wouldn't but that's me.  It seems specially designed for the ring and does well when you have lots of room to do it) But, think carefully and question if these techniques can be used in a real situation.  
Just your preference in training, depending on what your training for.  I'm always in a mindset of realistic self-defense and am not interested in sport fighting.  But, that is me.  And my opinions on practical technique IS heavilly biased due to my critical anyalyzing of technique that I see won't work in these situations.  
So, how is BJJ going to help your WC/WT in this light?
I hope this clarifies more of the mindset I am coming from, and why I get so "passionate" about self-defense and BJJ.


----------



## arnisador

I hope no one is discounting BJJ without having tried going against it...remember, before the UFC, the 'Gracie Challenge' changed a lot of people's minds.


----------



## Si-Je

arnisador said:


> I hope no one is discounting BJJ without having tried going against it...remember, before the UFC, the 'Gracie Challenge' changed a lot of people's minds.


 
I understand why you would recomend this, and I and our students have trained with and against BJJ.  The "gracie challenge" is still on and this convinces alot of people that their the top dogs.  But, not everyone can afford to travel out to California and put themselves up in a hotel and bebop on over to the school to challenge.  So, this challenge doesn't cover all folks who have the skill.  And is pretty misleading in it's very nature.
Heck, we sure could use the $10,000 he says he'll offer to a "victor". lol!
But, there's just too much cost involved in coming over there and playing around with it.  
Besides, it wouldn't change peoples minds.


----------



## dungeonworks

arnisador said:


> I hope no one is discounting BJJ without having tried going against it...remember, before the UFC, the 'Gracie Challenge' changed a lot of people's minds.



Thank you.  They've documented footage against several styles in mats, tile floors, rings, cages, MMA with gloves, vale tudo and No-Holds-Barred without gloves, and beaches among others.  Most of their footage is agains far larger opponents and they beat them with efficient technique.  Been doing it for around 100 years.  It is more than any other practitioner can say about and back up their style.  That's the reason people wanted to learn it.  It is verified, tried, and true.  There is a sport side of BJJ and a self defense side.

Now before I say this, let me state that Wing Chun is ridiculously disadvantaged in a sport setting as the rules take away many bread & butter attacks (fingers to eyes and throat, elbows to back of neck)/target areas (throat, eyes, back of neck..ect) and reduce it from a hearty stew to a broth so to speak.  BJJ is not and can be sportorized by simply removing striking.  That being said, 98% of the Wing Chun fight footage I have seen is them getting killed by Kyokushin, Muay Thai, MMA (a good amount anyways), and the ocasional ridiculous challenge match (not to leave out the almighty clash of the masters, Boztepe vs Chueng)....just YouTube it or use your favorite P2P software and search for them.


----------



## dungeonworks

Si-Je said:


> I understand why you would recomend this, and I and our students have trained with and against BJJ.  The "gracie challenge" is still on and this convinces alot of people that their the top dogs.  But, not everyone can afford to travel out to California and put themselves up in a hotel and bebop on over to the school to challenge.  So, this challenge doesn't cover all folks who have the skill.  And is pretty misleading in it's very nature.
> Heck, we sure could use the $10,000 he says he'll offer to a "victor". lol!
> But, there's just too much cost involved in coming over there and playing around with it.
> Besides, it wouldn't change peoples minds.




Oh my *GOD *you are *REALLY *grasping for straws on this!  Put it on a credit card.  You are going to win anyways right???  Besides, it is open at any Gracie family owned and ran gym from what I understand, not exclusive to the Torrance. CA academy.


----------



## jarrod

another thing that often gets overlooked is that virtually all martial arts are the product of cross-training, wing chun & jujitsu included.  to cross-train isn't to betray your base art, but to allow the natural evolution of martial arts to continue.  a martial art should never be "done" because it should always be exposed to new & different approaches.  there's nothing anti-traditional about this, it is the way martial arts have always been.  two people who fight different ways are going to swap tricks, & each come away with something new to them.  so what?

jf


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Si-Je doesn't seem to have a problem with Sambo or Judo...But she has a problem with BJJ...she dislikes BJJ with a passion...Although you were able to tap guys 200-300lbs...you may have increase in strength from the training...just because some guys weigh more or have more muscle doesn't mean they the same strength as you. I have seen little bitty guys out bench huge heman guys...Sometimes the bigger guys have more bulk than they do overall strenght and stamina...This may be a kung you develop from your practice...each of us differnet...Some of us learn or pick up certain aspects faster than others. My Sidai and I when we started practicing Wing Chun we grew in different areas quicker. I grew first in speed and movement and he grew first in strength and size!

So Each of us is different. It may be your a natural at BJJ and your strength is nourish by practicing due to the way your Chi circurulates.




jarrod said:


> one of the things i disagree with si-je about is that jujitsu secretly relies on strength. when i started grappling i was 150lbs, & with a little practice i was able to tap guys 200-300lbs. so i know that with proper technique jujitsu can overcome strength. i don't train bjj, & i have my criticisms of it, but i have trained with enough bjj guys that i respect it. virtually every mma champion out there has some training in bjj, even if it's not their primary style. fedor doesn't, but he is excellent at sambo & judo, which is still grappling.
> 
> jf


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Please share what are the basic principals of BJJ?




Kamon Guy said:


> Firstly, to answer the whole 'BJJ hasn't been doing so well in the cage lately' comment by Sije - When fighters fight in the cage, they come from one end of the cage to the other and meet in the middle, meaning that the striker has the first move (ie unless the BJJ guy runs in and goes for a takedown, he will have to receive shots from the striker)
> 
> You will find that most MMA guys use BJJ, just like most MMA guys also use striking. Hence why it is called MMA...
> 
> Going back to the original thread, it is not essential that chunners learn BJJ, but it is extremely important that they learn some kind of ground game
> 
> In Kamon, although BJJ is encouraged, Master Chan would be just as happy to see his senior students proficient in catch wrestling or sambo etc
> 
> You cannot live your wing chun lives with the motto 'I will never go to ground'. In most cases it is extremely difficult for a chunner to get taken down, but think of situations where a person pushes you back over a car bonnet, a table in a pub, or when you trip over or get another person tackling you from behind
> 
> If people are so adamant and blind to say they will NEVER get taken down, then I don't really have time for intelligent conversation with them
> 
> BJJ is a good match in wing chun because it is more about sticking and trapping your opponent than most grappling styles. It also doesn't worry too much about strength. Obviously it is always better to have a bit of strength, but because BJJ works using leverage and angles, it is a very good fit with Wing Chun
> 
> Remember that you really only need the basic principles of BJJ. I am definately no master, but if I get taken down, I know basic positions that will greatly increase my chances of safety. Generally you always want to get back to the position you started from (standing up), so I don't work too much on things like arm bars or locks because they are more for sport


----------



## Flying Crane

Wing Chun/Tsun + Brazillian Jiujitsu = what?  and for what purpose?

CAN they work together as complementary and supportive methodologies?  Of course.

MUST you combine them in order to be effective?  Of course not.

Either art by itself, if properly trainined and understood, should give you the skills to handle yourself in most problems that the average person is likely to run into on the street.

They do not have equal strengths in a sporting context, however.  I believe that BJJ probably has the advantage in that arena.  If you want to compete in that arena, you might do well to get acquainted with it.

If you have no interest in a combative sporting context, then you certainly don't need to mix it with your wing chun.  But you can, if you choose, and I am sure you would get benefits from doing so.

But I wouldn't automatically discount a serious Wing Chun guy just because he hasn't trained in BJJ, at least not in a self defense situation.

and again, a lot of this depends on the individual, and for what purpose he/she trains.

So mixing them could be good, or it could be crap, or it could mean nothing.  And there are good reasons to do it, and there are good reasons to not do it.


----------



## Si-Je

Check this video out.  here's a 'straw' I'm grasping at.  lol!
This is my favorite site for realistic street combat.
Should this tiny girl have used BJJ in this elevator against this big guy?
Could she have? Or would it have put her in a truely dangerous position wrestling him in the small space of an elevator?
It takes a bit to get started, about halfway through you get the most awesome beatdown probably ever delivered by a tiny teenager! lol!

http://www.comegetyousome.com/video/...(warning).html


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Too answer *Si-Je* Question on how BJJ supplements your Wing Chun. I know little about strickly BJJ but I know some MMA schools have an excellent Stamina and conditioning program. Wing Chun does too...But most schools neglect Sprints up grass hills,Running five miles a day,100 pushs extremely fast to build stamina not strength. 100 Leg lifts contious motions. 1000 fast chain punches. Fast front kicks contiously until your legs fall off...etc...also some people alternate the number of techniques starting off at minute progressing up to ten minutes over the course of a   month. each day so like for instance some may do extremely fast

Wing Chun Stamina routines alternative method
Push ups (One Minute)
Sit ups (One minute straight)
Sprinting on straight grounds (One Minute intervals) 10x
Sprintin up hills (One Minute intervals) 10x
Running (One miles-five Miles)
Chain Punching (One Minute)
Front & Side Kicks contious(One Minute)
Leg Lifts(One Minute)

An much more...

But *Si-Je*. These guys train Wing Chun and BJJ more for sport right now...Thats where their passion is, Many want to one day fight in a cage or MMA setting. Also realize that for many Wing Chun is a second art...The actual started learning Wing Chun second.


Your concepts are wounderful...They address real fighting situtations where it is one on one. But when your ring its not the same. They are not really talking Self Defense or Combat. They are not speaking street fighting. They train BJJ to match skills and rules in sports competition. In the ring most of the people are wrestlers. So when you grab them or take them down..They will automatically go to wrestling mode trying to fight for the dominate posistion very few of them are going to strike while wrestling. Because they have a one track mind. Their goal is to wrestle at that point...

So true...No one is going to use BJJ in an alley with broken glass and drug vials in the streets. No one is about try to take someone down on a street covered with used syringes or needles and rocks and nails. Very unpractical. But these guys are taining BJJ for fun. Not really that they see as a long term art the will be able to use when their seventy or eighty years old. Now cross training for them is adding their Wing Chun to thier already obtained BJJ Skills. But WC is the supplemental art so they have some striking in their aresnal. They will not learn WC or Grow in their WC as fast as you have. It depends on the teacher. It is suppose to take three years to get the entire system but it may take them longer maybe ten years...that is okay. Some of them may never ever use their art in a real street sitituation. Many of them will never venture outside the safe zone of their surburbs. The only place where they can get close to combat is to get in the ring...Their is thirst for combat which is not met...

I been to Other WC schools outside my lineage...The basics were excellent...And if you practice those basics they way they do for ten years not many Wrestlers will be able to tackle you down once you have gotten your stance rooted. But that type of power takes 10 to 20 years to develop. I don't train exclusively root so I am not there yet my self. I utilize skill and movement more so than root. Although I use root to strike with. But a WC guy with Six months of experience is not going to be stand in stance an ward off the energy with effort...Unless they practice nothing but Root eight hours a day Six days a week for one year. I still doubt it but its possible. In Aikido we trained techniques to sink our weight so we can not be picked up. But that depends on years and level of practice. It takes years to really develop to work on strong fighter.

So in conclusion Si-Je these guys are interested in the sport of fighting.
Not mere self defense. Many of them have no use for self defense. If they wanted Self Defense they learn Karate...But for sports Tae Kwon Do and MMA are good. Muay thai is also be supplemented with BJJ now and days. But I could be wrong I don't think the Gracies were using Brazialian JuJitsu...Weren't using Greco Wrestling? Is there a difference?






Si-Je said:


> Okay guys, I get hyper and am not clear sometimes. BJJ has been beaten in the ring several times, it is totally possible to defeat a takedown with striking concepts, that's my main point. It is possible to use 100% wing chun to defend against a wrestler/BJJ whatever strickly ground fighting style. It has been done numerous times.
> 
> Yes, people have been tapped out.
> 
> To break a joint only takes 2-6 lbs of concentrated pressure. (depending on the joint, i.e. elbow, knee, wrist) Muscle built around the joint can help and hinder a person usually taking away some flexability if one bulks up too much, but that muscle mass can protect the joint making it harder to break or "submit".
> 
> So, yes, it doen't take alot of strength to submit or break an arm on a larger opponent.
> BUT..
> 
> That larger opponent has other limbs, moving, punching, kicking, elbowing limbs to deal with while you concentrate all your time and effort on one joint. See?
> 
> I started adapting WT/WC concepts to the JJJ I used to know so well, just to find out it stopped being JJJ technique. WT/WC has joint locks too, but they are done very differently. They are usually done with only one hand or arm on the joint, with no "lock out" on the arm or wrist. This leaves your other hand free to deflect or strike as needed. This doesn't force the joint lock, and if the lock is lost you continue chainpunching or flow into whatever is needed to continue to attack the opponent.
> So, what I thought was using JJJ with WC/WT concepts BECAME wing chun.
> 
> To commit your entire body into a joint lock and force the submission does require more strength than is needed to execute a joint lock. When I wrap my whole body around a guys arm, thus clinging to him while he picks me up off the ground and slams me on my back, neck or head is just not effecient! And it's painful, and to me silly. When I can aquire joint locks in other fashions that are not so harmful and dangerous to my small frame.
> 
> No, I don't like BJJ, we all know that, because I see it as
> largely and grossly inefficient. It takes too long to get into position for most of those techniques, too much effort, too much energy spent on one movement, too much commitment of the entire body for too long on one set technique.
> 
> I cringe to imagine a small woman doing these techniques on a large man on the concrete in the street, with nails, glass, wood, trash, and oil, etc... The road rash and body slames required to fall to the ground and execute these techniques I see as a horrible danger to anyone trying to use this in street or self-defense situations.
> 
> Like i've said: can you do these techniques between two parked cars in the parking lot, on a staircase, in a narrow hallway, in a bus isle, INSIDE a parked car, in your bathroom (especially if it's as tiny as mine! lol!) Wing Chun is designed for these situations specifically and these are your battle grounds in the real world, not some octogon, not some cage. If one feels they NEED a "ground game" for the cage, great, use BJJ (I still wouldn't but that's me. It seems specially designed for the ring and does well when you have lots of room to do it) But, think carefully and question if these techniques can be used in a real situation.
> 
> Just your preference in training, depending on what your training for. I'm always in a mindset of realistic self-defense and am not interested in sport fighting. But, that is me. And my opinions on practical technique IS heavilly biased due to my critical anyalyzing of technique that I see won't work in these situations.
> 
> So, how is BJJ going to help your WC/WT in this light?
> I hope this clarifies more of the mindset I am coming from, and why I get so "passionate" about self-defense and BJJ.


----------



## Si-Je

dungeonworks said:


> Oh my *GOD *you are *REALLY *grasping for straws on this! Put it on a credit card. You are going to win anyways right??? Besides, it is open at any Gracie family owned and ran gym from what I understand, not exclusive to the Torrance. CA academy.


 

LOL! You put it on YOUR credit card!  I'm not spending good money to pay horrible interest to pay off making a point to people that still won't listen.
Hubbie would win.  
I'm too nasty to follow the rules.


----------



## Si-Je

Yoshiyahu said:


> Too answer *Si-Je* Question on how BJJ supplements your Wing Chun. I know little about strickly BJJ but I know some MMA schools have an excellent Stamina and conditioning program.
> 
> But *Si-Je*. These guys train Wing Chun and BJJ more for sport right now...Thats where their passion is, Many want to one day fight in a cage or MMA setting. Also realize that for many Wing Chun is a second art...The actual started learning Wing Chun second.
> 
> Your concepts are wounderful...They address real fighting situtations where it is one on one. But when your ring its not the same. They are not really talking Self Defense or Combat. They are not speaking street fighting. They train BJJ to match skills and rules in sports competition. In the ring most of the people are wrestlers. So when you grab them or take them down..They will automatically go to wrestling mode trying to fight for the dominate posistion very few of them are going to strike while wrestling. Because they have a one track mind. Their goal is to wrestle at that point...
> 
> So true...No one is going to use BJJ in an alley with broken glass and drug vials in the streets. No one is about try to take someone down on a street covered with used syringes or needles and rocks and nails. Very unpractical. But these guys are taining BJJ for fun.
> 
> not many Wrestlers will be able to tackle you down once you have gotten your stance rooted. But that type of power takes 10 to 20 years to develop.
> But a WC guy with Six months of experience is not going to be stand in stance an ward off the energy with effort...Unless they practice nothing but Root eight hours a day Six days a week for one year. I still doubt it but its possible. In Aikido we trained techniques to sink our weight so we can not be picked up. But that depends on years and level of practice. It takes years to really develop to work on strong fighter.
> 
> So in conclusion Si-Je these guys are interested in the sport of fighting.
> Not mere self defense. Many of them have no use for self defense.


 
I understand the sport aspect. But, I've talked to alot of people that believe that BJJ is a great SD and would and do use it in the street. Ack! Their preference.
Train it for sport, that's great for them. I only have a problem with it when it's "sold" as viable self-defense.

As for a WC/WT person defending a grapple at that short time in art. Hubbie has started teaching the anti-grappling at grade 1 because of this. Using the basics of anti-grappling that match what they are leaning standing at that time in art.
i.e. you do basic stance and chain punch.
then you do that on the ground. using basic stance on ground to keep attacker off you when their between your legs.
Teaching to roll off the attacker in a mount position and chain punch to cover face with attack while their in mount.
And teaching to heel kick, or bicycle kick to keep a standing attacker from jumping on top of you when your on the ground on your back. Do this while turning on your back like a turtle if opponent runs around to your side to get "side position". etc...
Teaching to side step/pivot or "sprawl" against a takedown.

Basics standing, basics on the ground. Match for match, apply the same standing as you do on ground.


----------



## dungeonworks

Si-Je said:


> LOL! You put it on YOUR credit card!  I'm not spending good money to pay horrible interest to pay off making a point to people that still won't listen.
> Hubbie would win.
> I'm too nasty to follow the rules.



Pay it off in the "Gracie" period! LOL  j/k

Also, which video on your link am I looking at?  I see something about a cat cyst, WWE ladder match, and links to girl on girl kissing (which is kind of cool too, but not why I am on a Wing Chun forum! :ultracool )

By the way, I really do appreciate your insight Si-Je.  I am just trying to understand it.  If we all agreed, things just would not be fun around here and be more like an "SNL Skit".


----------



## dungeonworks

Si-Je said:


> LOL! You put it on YOUR credit card!  I'm not spending good money to pay horrible interest to pay off making a point to people that still won't listen.
> Hubbie would win.
> I'm too nasty to follow the rules.



He's Force Recon right?  Salutes to him! :ultracool


----------



## jarrod

i just want to say regarding alleys filled with broken drug vials...lol, where are these places & why the hell would i be there?  one of the first rules of self defense should be to avoid dangerous places whenever possible.  i'm not a cop or a junkie, so i really don't see myself getting jumped in a urine-soaked alley by a gang of drug fiends.  

jf


----------



## arnisador

Si-Je said:


> http://www.comegetyousome.com/video/...(warning).html



The site wants to install something if you want to watch videos...


----------



## Si-Je

eep! sorry. let me try this link. There should be a little box in the middle of the browser. 
Labled : Teen attacked in Elevetor WARNING

http://www.comegetyousome.com/video/19492/teen-attacked-on-elevator(warning).html

does this one work better?  It worked for me.


----------



## Si-Je

Live in my neighborhood and see how easy it is to avoid such things.  We don't have a car, we walk to the grocery store three to five times a week.  There's this crap everywhere we walk.  On the sidewalk, off the sidewalk, in the street, in the parking lots to the stores.  
Big D is nasty.
Big cities are nasty.



jarrod said:


> i just want to say regarding alleys filled with broken drug vials...lol, where are these places & why the hell would i be there? one of the first rules of self defense should be to avoid dangerous places whenever possible. i'm not a cop or a junkie, so i really don't see myself getting jumped in a urine-soaked alley by a gang of drug fiends.
> 
> jf


----------



## arnisador

Si-Je said:


> eep! sorry. let me try this link. There should be a little box in the middle of the browser.
> Labled : Teen attacked in Elevetor WARNING
> 
> http://www.comegetyousome.com/video/19492/teen-attacked-on-elevator(warning).html
> 
> does this one work better?  It worked for me.



Yes, that one works! Is it a real case, or staged? She chased after him--bad idea! If it was real, good for her.

Yes, BJJ techniques would also have been workable there. His initial stiff-arm leads to a Greco-Roman style bearhug from behind, for example, from which he can be tripped forward. When he slides down the levator wall, choke him out! A lighter person might jump guard--less advisable in self-defense than sport--and break the arm. But a typical BJJer would initially have hit him as she did in such a case, I think. As with JJJ, atemi is a fine distraction!


----------



## Si-Je

This one is why I don't lock my legs behind a stronger guy. They pick you up and slam you on your back, It's too easy to be slammed on your head or neck.
And this is at a tournament

http://www.comegetyousome.com/video/19848/back-broken-during-tournament.htmlhttp://www.comegetyousome.com/video/...ournament.html


----------



## jks9199

Si-Je said:


> LOL! You put it on YOUR credit card!  I'm not spending good money to pay horrible interest to pay off making a point to people that still won't listen.
> Hubbie would win.
> I'm too nasty to follow the rules.


You should be able to apply your principles within the rules of a competition.  Others manage to...   If you can't, either your principles are inadequate, you aren't as skilled as you think... or you're simply not trying to follow the rules.

(And, by the way, most credit cards charge no interest if paid off within the payment period.  A little care in planning, and you could have most of 30 days to win the challenge, cash the check and pay the bill off.)


----------



## Si-Je

arnisador said:


> Yes, that one works! Is it a real case, or staged? She chased after him--bad idea! If it was real, good for her.
> 
> Yes, BJJ techniques would also have been workable there. His initial stiff-arm leads to a Greco-Roman style bearhug from behind, for example, from which he can be tripped forward. When he slides down the levator wall, choke him out! A lighter person might jump guard--less advisable in self-defense than sport--and break the arm. But a typical BJJer would initially have hit him as she did in such a case, I think. As with JJJ, atemi is a fine distraction!


 
It says that this was taken from an elevator security camera, so I guessing it's as real as it gets. They do alot of videos taken from individuals off cell phone cameras, and security cameras on this site. Most of the clips are NOT edited for bad language or brutality. So you have to be careful who's watching this stuff with you.

And honestly, I don't think she had alot of choice but to follow him. Looks like he set the elevator to open where he wanted it, like the parking garage, and it was the only way out. I wouldn't want him to recupe and charge the elevator again while I was still in it waiting for the doors to close. hey, it could have been her floor too! lol!

Anyways, I think if women followed through like that more visciously men would have to think twice about attacking a woman. If it was pretty much common knowledge that a cornered woman will stomp you down worse than a man it might deter future attacks on women. 
Men that attack women know that she'll be overly concerned with getting away and won't fight back much, easy target. And a target with less chance of receiving serious injury. 
Personally, if a guy attacks me like that I'll give him a beatdown for all women everywhere. 
I love her use of the floor and walls of the elevator to bang his head into, the grab and pull back by the scruff of his neck was absolute beauty! lol! Like she was saying " where do you think YOUR going? get back here so I can't smack you around some more!" lol!

Oh, and no one has anything to say about the BJJ guy that got his back broken in tournament?  I guess he should have leg go his legs around the guys waist?


----------



## Si-Je

Oh, stop with the credit card.  We don't have one.  Done deal.  Must be nice to be folks with credit and money.  

As for the Gracie rules:
1.  no punching the back of the neck and head (well, don't shoot into my legs trying to slam me painfully to the ground on my back and expose your head like that.)
2.  Don't mount me and try to smash my face in totally exposing your groin at my face level where I can easily chain punch it until they scream alto style and get off me.
3. don't clamp your legs around my head in a triangle fashion where I could get my neck broken, and not expect me to bite you in the theigh or the groin to save my neck.
4. don't armbar me with my elbow in the crotch where I can tan sau and shove my arm forward into the groin to save my elbow from being broken or hyper extended.

Those rules are like saying: "no, I've got you in an armbar you can't hit, kick, elbow, poke my eyes, chop the throat, hurt my groin, bite, ear slap, or seriously hurt me in any vitals. Even though I expose all to you.
Now be still while I break your arm and put the video on youtube!"  oh and by the way, " BJJ is a realistic self-defense art designed for the mean beaches of Brazil."

Hubbie likes to "play fair" like that, but, I will not.  That's not the point I'm trying to make.  He's gonna make the point WC/WT can be used in the ring with rules and following the rules, because that's the only way to help people see it's a complete system and a viable true self-defense.  The cage.  So, he's more likely to play along.  He's a devildog, he likes competition and pain. lol!
Not me, I'm a punker and don't let myself get hurt for 'show' or to prove a 'point'.  He's the Sifu, let him do it. lol!




jks9199 said:


> You should be able to apply your principles within the rules of a competition. Others manage to... If you can't, either your principles are inadequate, you aren't as skilled as you think... or you're simply not trying to follow the rules.
> 
> (And, by the way, most credit cards charge no interest if paid off within the payment period. A little care in planning, and you could have most of 30 days to win the challenge, cash the check and pay the bill off.)


----------



## MJS

Si-Je said:


> Okay guys, I get hyper and am not clear sometimes. BJJ has been beaten in the ring several times,


 
Never said that it hadn't been beaten. 




> it is totally possible to defeat a takedown with striking concepts, that's my main point. It is possible to use 100% wing chun to defend against a wrestler/BJJ whatever strickly ground fighting style. It has been done numerous times.
> Yes, people have been tapped out.


 
Yes, that is true.  However, has it ever entered your mind, that the stand up fighters, such as Chuck, have incorporated a grappling defense into their stand up, to make that takedown defense even strgoner?  Or are you still assuming that they're using pure standup for that?





> To break a joint only takes 2-6 lbs of concentrated pressure. (depending on the joint, i.e. elbow, knee, wrist) Muscle built around the joint can help and hinder a person usually taking away some flexability if one bulks up too much, but that muscle mass can protect the joint making it harder to break or "submit".
> So, yes, it doen't take alot of strength to submit or break an arm on a larger opponent.
> BUT..
> That larger opponent has other limbs, moving, punching, kicking, elbowing limbs to deal with while you concentrate all your time and effort on one joint. See?


 
Hmm...your lack of understanding is showing Sije.  If you really watch a match, you will see that many BJJ guys will secure a good position first, which really isn't as hard as you make it seem.  They play the chess game, thinking a few moves ahead, so while it appears they're going for one thing, they're really setting up what they want and by then, its too late for the other person.





> I started adapting WT/WC concepts to the JJJ I used to know so well, just to find out it stopped being JJJ technique. WT/WC has joint locks too, but they are done very differently. They are usually done with only one hand or arm on the joint, with no "lock out" on the arm or wrist. This leaves your other hand free to deflect or strike as needed. This doesn't force the joint lock, and if the lock is lost you continue chainpunching or flow into whatever is needed to continue to attack the opponent.
> So, what I thought was using JJJ with WC/WT concepts BECAME wing chun.
> To commit your entire body into a joint lock and force the submission does require more strength than is needed to execute a joint lock. When I wrap my whole body around a guys arm, thus clinging to him while he picks me up off the ground and slams me on my back, neck or head is just not effecient! And it's painful, and to me silly. When I can aquire joint locks in other fashions that are not so harmful and dangerous to my small frame.


 
More lack of understanding showing here.  You are under this impression that it takes alot.  Watch Rickson or Royce.  They're so relaxed, compared to the G&P guys that you see today.  That is the real idea of BJJ.



> No, I don't like BJJ, we all know that, because I see it as
> largely and grossly inefficient. It takes too long to get into position for most of those techniques, too much effort, too much energy spent on one movement, too much commitment of the entire body for too long on one set technique.


 
Its probably because you don't understand it.



> I cringe to imagine a small woman doing these techniques on a large man on the concrete in the street, with nails, glass, wood, trash, and oil, etc... The road rash and body slames required to fall to the ground and execute these techniques I see as a horrible danger to anyone trying to use this in street or self-defense situations.
> Like i've said: can you do these techniques between two parked cars in the parking lot, on a staircase, in a narrow hallway, in a bus isle, INSIDE a parked car, in your bathroom (especially if it's as tiny as mine! lol!) Wing Chun is designed for these situations specifically and these are your battle grounds in the real world, not some octogon, not some cage. If one feels they NEED a "ground game" for the cage, great, use BJJ (I still wouldn't but that's me. It seems specially designed for the ring and does well when you have lots of room to do it) But, think carefully and question if these techniques can be used in a real situation.
> Just your preference in training, depending on what your training for. I'm always in a mindset of realistic self-defense and am not interested in sport fighting. But, that is me. And my opinions on practical technique IS heavilly biased due to my critical anyalyzing of technique that I see won't work in these situations.
> So, how is BJJ going to help your WC/WT in this light?
> I hope this clarifies more of the mindset I am coming from, and why I get so "passionate" about self-defense and BJJ.


 
Nobody said that you had to roll around on the ground.  I've said many times that is the last place you want to be, because of the reasons you list, such as mult. attackers, objects on the ground, etc.  However, to assume that you will never end up there is a recipe for disaster.  BJJ will help you with the initial escape, and getting up properly, so you can continue your stand up defense.


----------



## MJS

Si-Je said:


> I understand why you would recomend this, and I and our students have trained with and against BJJ. The "gracie challenge" is still on and this convinces alot of people that their the top dogs. But, not everyone can afford to travel out to California and put themselves up in a hotel and bebop on over to the school to challenge. So, this challenge doesn't cover all folks who have the skill. And is pretty misleading in it's very nature.
> Heck, we sure could use the $10,000 he says he'll offer to a "victor". lol!
> But, there's just too much cost involved in coming over there and playing around with it.
> Besides, it wouldn't change peoples minds.


 
So, going on this, is your hubby only fighting in the state in which you live or will he be traveling?  If he is going to travel, then theres no issue with traveling right over to Ca.


----------



## MJS

Si-Je said:


> LOL! You put it on YOUR credit card! I'm not spending good money to pay horrible interest to pay off making a point to people that still won't listen.
> Hubbie would win.
> I'm too nasty to follow the rules.


 
So, hubby trains WC, hubby has fought BJJ people in your school....it was that 10yr guy right, hubby is undefeated.

See Sije...its comments like this that you make, and then you wonder why people claim that you say WC is the ultimate, that hubby is the best in the world.  

Umm...yeah, ok.


----------



## Si-Je

MJS said:


> So, hubby trains WC, hubby has fought BJJ people in your school....it was that 10yr guy right, hubby is undefeated.
> 
> See Sije...its comments like this that you make, and then you wonder why people claim that you say WC is the ultimate, that hubby is the best in the world.
> 
> Umm...yeah, ok.


 
What? I told you he sparred with the 10 year BJJ teacher of BJJ and JKD often. He's fought BJJ elsewhere and for real, but that is taboo. He's used it against kids in the USMC, and has fought and sparred with BJJ many many times. That was an example of a time I saw myself.

And no, we are NOT travelling out of state for him to fight. Again, can NOT afford to travel like that. We are getting him registered to fight in TEXAS with TAMMA one of the largest MMA organizations in the nation. Is this not satisfactory? Do you require we travel to Cali?

And, again, I haven't claimed WC is "ultimate" you guys keep typing that one in FOR ME. lol! I explain why I believe it is effecient and more practical to BJJ, and yes, in some real self defense scenarios, is superior, but the WORD ultimate wasn't from my actual post, unless quoting or referring to one of you stating your assumption from my statements.
I'm strong on WC/WT, big deal. Others are just as bad or confident with BJJ. So what?
Opinions and preferences, and I am intitled to have mine too.

I still see no smart comments on the BJJ practitioner that got his back snapped right in half.  Just smart talk about how I don't understand it and that's why I don't want to use it.  I don't want to use it because I don't want my back broken, or my body slammed on the hard concrete, or to muscle up a large man by the knees and throw him to the ground as he drags me with him.  These things coming to mind do NOT tempt me to join the ranks of BJJ.


----------



## seasoned

Cut and dry guys, the stand up arts, of kicking punching and strikes, allows that person to better defend against multiple opponents. Takes downs put you at a disadvantage with more then one aggressor, with all that rolling around on the ground. If you are fighting more then one person you had better stay up and moving. I am talking street not cage. If three guys confront you, and you are a stand up fighter I would venture to say you could have at least 2 on the ground in a bad way, real fast. If I am a grappler facing 3 guys, I can only concentrate on one at a time. Just my thoughts. And also by the way I have used the groin kick in the street very successfully. It is the pelvic bone you are striking, with that front kick. Very painful.
The traditional arts cover ground techniques, but it is more on how to deal with them rather then roll with them. A self defense art is something that can be used anywhere, I would hope. What about the LEO we have on board. I know you have all the toys at your disposal, but if it comes down to it, do you want to roll around on the ground with them, along with your firearm? I have been to a lot of DT classes, and a lot are different, do some instructors teach grappling within that context?


----------



## Si-Je

I worked with a police officer that did get taken to the ground in a crowd on a 4th of July drunken brawl.  He was shot with his own firearm because he tried to wrestle them and handcuff them from the ground.  Too many people in the crowd, him being down on the ground he had no way to defend himself.
He was a Marine from the Vietnam era, not a wimpy or undertrained man.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Well somepeople live in these areas...Others have relatives that live in these places...an sometime we may have jobs that require us to drive to these places or maybe there is girl that really want to get with that lives in that type of hood...or maybe a friend from work lives in projects...you never know why you might end down there in that area...but you must be aware you could be there...

You can't always advoid danger...sometimes the way to find saftey is with in the heart of danger. But if your in an area like that...the last place you want to take your attacker is to ground...chances are your attacker is not trying to go down...So why bring him to the ground unless you land a knock out punch to his face...





jarrod said:


> i just want to say regarding alleys filled with broken drug vials...lol, where are these places & why the hell would i be there? one of the first rules of self defense should be to avoid dangerous places whenever possible. i'm not a cop or a junkie, so i really don't see myself getting jumped in a urine-soaked alley by a gang of drug fiends.
> 
> jf


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Come on man...Its her husband...Come on If she doesn't think her Hubbie can beat every man on earth that what type of wife should she be....She is a woman who devoted to her husband...she is suppose to believe he is undefeated....


come on man get real...now your throwing low blows....

Doesn't your wife think your the best in the world too?




MJS said:


> So, hubby trains WC, hubby has fought BJJ people in your school....it was that 10yr guy right, hubby is undefeated.
> 
> See Sije...its comments like this that you make, and then you wonder why people claim that you say WC is the ultimate, that hubby is the best in the world.
> 
> Umm...yeah, ok.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Well I say it then for you all...


*Wing Chun is ultimate Art*...no other Art can defend aganist it


With Wing Chun you learn how to punch so hard you can punch through brick walls with out hurting your hand...So when the BJJ guy comes shooting for your legs you punch through your gloves to his skull...He is dead now...with a light force he will be unconscious...


Wing chun has the levitating foot technique that if your are ever attacked by one hundred men you can simple jump on top of buildings then use your light skills to jump from roof to roof to escape....it kinda of looks like your flying up on the roof like in old gung fu movies,,,,


Wing Chun has the piercing kick technique...Not only will it send your foe flying 20 feet in the air but the impact will burst their kidneys


Wing Chun has an iron body technique that can with stand knives, swords,AK-47 bullets, Grenandes and Even Nuclear bombs...When You chi up, not even hirshoshima can kill you..

Wing Chun has the immovable stance technique one time I saw a master in wing Chun save a little girl by planting his feet into the ground so that he could redirect the energy of a bus that was about to hit him. By using the chi from the ground in his stance He simply deflected the bus with Kwun sau and then Tan Sau and then pak Sau...Not even a Train going 70mph hour can move you out your stance


Wing Chun has the 10 feet chi blast...That means from ten feet away I can send my Chi to you and cause you fall out...


Wing Chun is the best style in the world...Blocks as fast as a Cheetah

Oh lets not talk about the Iron palm...I once saw a sifu break 18 layers of solid iron with his palms....not bricks but he broke Iron slabs...that were each one inch thick...


Wing Chun is best Combat system in the world if your think you can beat it your crazy....



But the only way you can do all these things i mention above is that you choose either the green pill or blue pill?

Choose the right pill?


Then fly to mars so you learn the hidden secrets from the martian masters of Wing Chun.....


I hope to see you all there...i got my shuttle ticket already schedule to leave January 20th 2012...

Bon Voyage...



Si-Je said:


> What? I told you he sparred with the 10 year BJJ teacher of BJJ and JKD often. He's fought BJJ elsewhere and for real, but that is taboo. He's used it against kids in the USMC, and has fought and sparred with BJJ many many times. That was an example of a time I saw myself.
> 
> And no, we are NOT travelling out of state for him to fight. Again, can NOT afford to travel like that. We are getting him registered to fight in TEXAS with TAMMA one of the largest MMA organizations in the nation. Is this not satisfactory? Do you require we travel to Cali?
> 
> And, again, I haven't claimed WC is "ultimate" you guys keep typing that one in FOR ME. lol! I explain why I believe it is effecient and more practical to BJJ, and yes, in some real self defense scenarios, is superior, but the WORD ultimate wasn't from my actual post, unless quoting or referring to one of you stating your assumption from my statements.
> I'm strong on WC/WT, big deal. Others are just as bad or confident with BJJ. So what?
> Opinions and preferences, and I am intitled to have mine too.
> 
> I still see no smart comments on the BJJ practitioner that got his back snapped right in half. Just smart talk about how I don't understand it and that's why I don't want to use it. I don't want to use it because I don't want my back broken, or my body slammed on the hard concrete, or to muscle up a large man by the knees and throw him to the ground as he drags me with him. These things coming to mind do NOT tempt me to join the ranks of BJJ.


----------



## seasoned

Yoshiyahu said:


> Well I say it then for you all...
> 
> 
> *Wing Chun is ultimate Art*...no other Art can defend aganist it
> 
> 
> With Wing Chun you learn how to punch so hard you can punch through brick walls with out hurting your hand...So when the BJJ guy comes shooting for your legs you punch through your gloves to his skull...He is dead now...with a light force he will be unconscious...
> 
> 
> Wing chun has the levitating foot technique that if your are ever attacked by one hundred men you can simple jump on top of buildings then use your light skills to jump from roof to roof to escape....it kinda of looks like your flying up on the roof like in old gung fu movies,,,,
> 
> 
> Wing Chun has the piercing kick technique...Not only will it send your foe flying 20 feet in the air but the impact will burst their kidneys
> 
> 
> Wing Chun has an iron body technique that can with stand knives, swords,AK-47 bullets, Grenandes and Even Nuclear bombs...When You chi up, not even hirshoshima can kill you..
> 
> Wing Chun has the immovable stance technique one time I saw a master in wing Chun save a little girl by planting his feet into the ground so that he could redirect the energy of a bus that was about to hit him. By using the chi from the ground in his stance He simply deflected the bus with Kwun sau and then Tan Sau and then pak Sau...Not even a Train going 70mph hour can move you out your stance
> 
> 
> Wing Chun has the 10 feet chi blast...That means from ten feet away I can send my Chi to you and cause you fall out...
> 
> 
> Wing Chun is the best style in the world...Blocks as fast as a Cheetah
> 
> Oh lets not talk about the Iron palm...I once saw a sifu break 18 layers of solid iron with his palms....not bricks but he broke Iron slabs...that were each one inch thick...
> 
> 
> Wing Chun is best Combat system in the world if your think you can beat it your crazy....
> 
> 
> 
> But the only way you can do all these things i mention above is that you choose either the green pill or blue pill?
> 
> Choose the right pill?
> 
> 
> Then fly to mars so you learn the hidden secrets from the martian masters of Wing Chun.....
> 
> 
> I hope to see you all there...i got my shuttle ticket already schedule to leave January 20th 2012...
> 
> Bon Voyage...


 
I am trying to be somewhat informative where grappling and standup are concerned, and I know from reading your posts, you have a way of eliciting a certain response. This last post has me a little concerned, tell me everything is ok. J


----------



## Si-Je

You soooo crazy! lol!
I love it! I want the red pill! 
Time for funny time! 

So, "lets do the time warp again!" and "take a step to the left, and a jump to the right! Put your hands on your hips, and everything's alright!"
ROFL!
I'm so on that rocket ship dudes! lol!

By the way, ya'll, I've really enjoyed the discussions and I do apologize for being a butt head at times. This forum has been the great experiement for me. That's why I got on here two years ago in the first place. Better to make mistakes in explaination here and get to riled up online than with students and prospective students. I've learned how folks truely think and feel about wing chun, grappling and fighting in general here. 
Unfortunately, people aren't as outspoken about these things in person, (whether to be respectful to us at our 'school', or because they want to be polite, or 'cause hubbie is big and scary looking. lol!) 
So there is alot of things I've learned from you all about what about WC/WT turnes people off at a glance, on video, and in class. This way I can teach and explain what their learning better before they get frustrated or disheartened.
And yes, believe it or not, I'm far more diplomatic in person, and do not wish to be hurtful to anyone ever, online or in person. I may despise BJJ but I don't despise the people that take it, I just wish to understand fully why people are so attracted to it, and why they train it. And more importantly, why people are using it to "supplement" their other styles. 
Thank you all for your honest responses, and pardon again for getting "riled up" on my part, but this has all been very provocotive conversation and I am a little excitable person. lol! This helps Si-Je be a better big sister, and learn when to cool it down, what verbage is getting through to students, and what is confusing students. 

Thanks again, and Happy New Year everyone!!!!

I'll be back to play and talk, but please try not to take too much offence to the things I say. I say mean things sometimes to instigate alternative thought, to put folks on the "defenseive" so they actually think about why and what and the reasons for what they train. Sometimes true analyization and logical critisizm of why we do things comes to fruition better when faced with a little conflict. 
Love ya'll all!
And Happy New Year and Holidays again!


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Season what did you mean when you said?: "you have a way of eliciting a certain response."

What is Eliciting?

As for me I am grrrrrrreat. What about you?



seasoned said:


> I am trying to be somewhat informative where grappling and standup are concerned, and I know from reading your posts, you have a way of eliciting a certain response. This last post has me a little concerned, tell me everything is ok. J


----------



## seasoned

Yoshiyahu said:


> Season what did you mean when you said?: "you have a way of eliciting a certain response."
> 
> What is Eliciting?
> 
> As for me I am grrrrrrreat. What about you?


 
Nothing disrespectful, you have a way of wording certain posts in such a way, to see what kind of response you may get. You had mentioned in another thread, I think, that you did it to generate conversation. The post about going to Mars may be one of those posts. I dont know if I am great, but I definitely get by. :asian:


----------



## Yoshiyahu

nO nO SORRY MY FRIEND This post was purely Humor...nothing more just funny if you asked me...I think onlookers will be able to agree with me on that post...


Any art that can do all the following I list would be an unbeatable art...





seasoned said:


> Nothing disrespectful, you have a way of wording certain posts in such a way, to see what kind of response you may get. You had mentioned in another thread, I think, that you did it to generate conversation. The post about going to Mars may be one of those posts. I dont know if I am great, but I definitely get by. :asian:


----------



## seasoned

Yoshiyahu said:


> nO nO SORRY MY FRIEND This post was purely Humor...nothing more just funny if you asked me...I think onlookers will be able to agree with me on that post...
> 
> 
> Any art that can do all the following I list would be an unbeatable art...


 


Unbeatable indeed, and would definitely surpass any of those grappler types. W/C er's have a good sense of humor.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Ha Ha...My Friend If i could jump on roof tops and knock people out with my chi from ten feet...I wouldn't be here on computer...I will be in ring in Thaliand trying to get that million dollar gold from the kumate....lol....

But seriously...did I have you going there for a minute like i was serious?

I mean iron body that can with stand nuclear destruction?

wow...

i love to meet that guy...his Iron body is stronger than iron..




seasoned said:


> Unbeatable indeed, and would definitely surpass any of those grappler types. W/C er's have a good sense of humor.


----------



## jarrod

Yoshiyahu said:


> Well somepeople live in these areas...Others have relatives that live in these places...an sometime we may have jobs that require us to drive to these places or maybe there is girl that really want to get with that lives in that type of hood...or maybe a friend from work lives in projects...you never know why you might end down there in that area...but you must be aware you could be there...
> 
> You can't always advoid danger...sometimes the way to find saftey is with in the heart of danger. But if your in an area like that...the last place you want to take your attacker is to ground...chances are your attacker is not trying to go down...So why bring him to the ground unless you land a knock out punch to his face...


 
well i do see your point...but nevertheless, i think if i lived somewhere like that part of my "self defense" would consist of saving enough money for a car or to move to a better neighborhood! don't get me wrong, my neighborhood isn't great, but generally feel pretty safe day to day. i guess if i were that worried i'd have gotten my concealed carry license by now. 

at any rate, i do enjoy our little discussions over here on the WC board as well, & don't mean any offense to anyone. i think grappling gets a bad wrap sometimes & i just can't let it slide. i train striking arts too for all the reasons mentioned above by others, but grappling arts have their place as well, even for self-defense. & it's where my heart is. there's just no accounting for taste, is there? lol

one thing i admire about grappling is that it gives you the ability to control someone without hurting them. i haven't really been in a life or death hand to hand situation (& i hope i never am), but there have been many times that if i hadn't been able to control somebody, i would have had a full-fledged fight on my hands. i mean it's really nice to know that you can rip out someone's eye's & crush their groin, but i just don't want to do that to my buddy who drank too much, you know? or explain it to the police. 

it's basic escalation of force. there are things i'm willing to fight for that i'm not willing to kill or maim for. 


jf


----------



## Steve

So.  Basically you're admitting to being a troll?   Wow.  





Si-Je said:


> You soooo crazy! lol!
> I love it! I want the red pill!
> Time for funny time!
> 
> So, "lets do the time warp again!" and "take a step to the left, and a jump to the right! Put your hands on your hips, and everything's alright!"
> ROFL!
> I'm so on that rocket ship dudes! lol!
> 
> By the way, ya'll, I've really enjoyed the discussions and I do apologize for being a butt head at times. This forum has been the great experiement for me. That's why I got on here two years ago in the first place. Better to make mistakes in explaination here and get to riled up online than with students and prospective students. I've learned how folks truely think and feel about wing chun, grappling and fighting in general here.
> Unfortunately, people aren't as outspoken about these things in person, (whether to be respectful to us at our 'school', or because they want to be polite, or 'cause hubbie is big and scary looking. lol!)
> So there is alot of things I've learned from you all about what about WC/WT turnes people off at a glance, on video, and in class. This way I can teach and explain what their learning better before they get frustrated or disheartened.
> And yes, believe it or not, I'm far more diplomatic in person, and do not wish to be hurtful to anyone ever, online or in person. I may despise BJJ but I don't despise the people that take it, I just wish to understand fully why people are so attracted to it, and why they train it. And more importantly, why people are using it to "supplement" their other styles.
> Thank you all for your honest responses, and pardon again for getting "riled up" on my part, but this has all been very provocotive conversation and I am a little excitable person. lol! This helps Si-Je be a better big sister, and learn when to cool it down, what verbage is getting through to students, and what is confusing students.
> 
> Thanks again, and Happy New Year everyone!!!!
> 
> I'll be back to play and talk, but please try not to take too much offence to the things I say. I say mean things sometimes to instigate alternative thought, to put folks on the "defenseive" so they actually think about why and what and the reasons for what they train. Sometimes true analyization and logical critisizm of why we do things comes to fruition better when faced with a little conflict.
> Love ya'll all!
> And Happy New Year and Holidays again!


----------



## seasoned

Yoshiyahu said:


> Well somepeople live in these areas...Others have relatives that live in these places...an sometime we may have jobs that require us to drive to these places or maybe there is girl that really want to get with that lives in that type of hood...or maybe a friend from work lives in projects...you never know why you might end down there in that area...but you must be aware you could be there...
> 
> You can't always advoid danger...sometimes the way to find saftey is with in the heart of danger. But if your in an area like that...the last place you want to take your attacker is to ground...chances are your attacker is not trying to go down...*So why bring him to the ground unless you land a knock out punch to his face...*




I was thinking more in the line of slamming them to the ground. If I do it right, break fall or tuck the chin will not help. This is where I feel that a well placed strike before the slam will stun him and he may not get up for a while.


----------



## Mystic Wolf

Just heard a news a news report, and 88 year old woman was attacked by a NAKED 44 year old man who broke into her home and attacked her, rubbing his body up against hers.  She yelled "no!"
And grabed and twisted his testicles until he ran out screaming.
You can't teach an 88 year old woman BJJ.  But all the "rules" of "combat" go out the window when you have to defend yourself against someone you could'nt "physically" ever defeat.
Enter, Wing Chun.


----------



## Si-Je

stevebjj said:


> So. Basically you're admitting to being a troll? Wow.


 
Why are you here? Do you have something productive to say? Is this why you went on the women's side and called my video a fake to prove a point?
What IS your point?

I speak my mind, and I'm truthful on here. If that's not appreciated then fine, I don't need to hear crap from you. BJJ man.
I'm trying to really find out why people believe this BJJ crap. Did you see the video of the BJJ guy getting his back broken? no? You didn't bother to look at it or comment.
So, I apologize for possibly offending people while speaking my mind and getting to excited about the discussion and all you have to say is that I'm a troll.
Nice.
This is why I "forget" to be polite or diplomatic. What is the point with being nice with people like you? But, I didn't post that for YOU.
seriously!
I've given many explainations of technique often here, no one can comment on the WT anti-grappling WC defense and theory against grappling without falling back on old addages and cliches and attacking my person and my husband. I find this pitafull.
You don't agree with me, then don't bother with me. you won't change my mind, I won't change yours.
You want to call that video a fake on the women's site, then prove it. I don't care.
I posted that for the women's input, not yours. I'm so tired of men putting their two cents in when it's not asked for!  I wanted to know what WOMEN'S thoughts were on this situation, fake or not.  Just the idea of a tiny little child defending herself in that fashion.  Do they think it's wrong?  Over excessive? Impractical? What? At least in theory.  But, now that you've posted that it is "probably a fake" then none of them will feel comfortable to respond or give an opinion.
Who's the troll now?
Who's shanghiing who?
Your messing up my experiment, and I don't apprectiate it.  I don't want to "fight" with the women like I do the men, the men pick on me 'cause I'm a girl.  I'm used to it, and I'll give it back.  The women are different.  I want to understand what they think and want.  Not you. Didn't ask YOU.
I want to know what women think, not men. I KNOW what men think. yawn!
A troll. lol!
If that's what I am then you owe me a toll to pass my bridge! lol!
man, nevermind, it's new years, and I can't let a dude like you ruin my night. 
Peace out, troll toll payer!


----------



## Mystic Wolf

I like to wish everybody a HAPPY NEW YEAR!


----------



## jarrod

Si-Je said:


> I've given many explainations of technique often here, no one can comment on the WT anti-grappling WC defense and theory against grappling without falling back on old addages and cliches and attacking my person and my husband. I find this pitafull.


 
for the record, i did critique anti-grappling without use of cliches, & hopefully i didn't attack you or your husband's character. the "grappler" in those videos just didn't look like a good grappler. if he is a judo/jujitsuka, he is either dumbing down his technique or he simply isn't very good. 

at any rate, happy new years, all the best,

jf


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Yea, I feel you...you have a desire to study grappling...like you said its where your heart is...Some of us...or Hearts are on pure WC...alls you have to say is Wing Chun combined with BJJ and thats enough to defend...lol...But I am not offended...Don't take it as if I am. I am just curious. I see the days of Martial Art purity converting to Mixed Art fighting. Which may have its place...In fact in a fight I am going to use what ever works...if its grappling...grabbing groin...shooting for your legs grabbing behind your knees to flip you on your back so crack your head an then stomp your face...Then so be it...it depends on situtation and if I feel I can pull it off...Like if some is stupid enough to try a frontal head lock I may hit them gonads and then do the shoot. But I am not wrestler...As a matter fact there is shoot for the legs so to speak in Bil Jee. But most people don't really catch it. I did when I thought about why on earth would someone bend over an reach between their legs. Lol...if someone is behind you or trying to grab from behind...why not bend over grab that leg an pull if you can...





jarrod said:


> well i do see your point...but nevertheless, i think if i lived somewhere like that part of my "self defense" would consist of saving enough money for a car or to move to a better neighborhood! don't get me wrong, my neighborhood isn't great, but generally feel pretty safe day to day. i guess if i were that worried i'd have gotten my concealed carry license by now.
> 
> at any rate, i do enjoy our little discussions over here on the WC board as well, & don't mean any offense to anyone. i think grappling gets a bad wrap sometimes & i just can't let it slide. i train striking arts too for all the reasons mentioned above by others, but grappling arts have their place as well, even for self-defense. & it's where my heart is. there's just no accounting for taste, is there? lol
> 
> one thing i admire about grappling is that it gives you the ability to control someone without hurting them. i haven't really been in a life or death hand to hand situation (& i hope i never am), but there have been many times that if i hadn't been able to control somebody, i would have had a full-fledged fight on my hands. i mean it's really nice to know that you can rip out someone's eye's & crush their groin, but i just don't want to do that to my buddy who drank too much, you know? or explain it to the police.
> 
> it's basic escalation of force. there are things i'm willing to fight for that i'm not willing to kill or maim for.
> 
> 
> jf


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Why are you calling people trolls...what does that mean?




stevebjj said:


> So. Basically you're admitting to being a troll? Wow.


----------



## jarrod

Yoshiyahu said:


> Why are you calling people trolls...what does that mean?


 
a troll is someone who goes on message boards & intentionally makes people angry or otherwise messes with them.  

jf


----------



## Si-Je

jarrod said:


> for the record, i did critique anti-grappling without use of cliches, & hopefully i didn't attack you or your husband's character. the "grappler" in those videos just didn't look like a good grappler. if he is a judo/jujitsuka, he is either dumbing down his technique or he simply isn't very good.
> 
> at any rate, happy new years, all the best,
> 
> jf


 
I'm not yelling at you, darlin'. lol! just yelling at that mean guy that called me a "troll".
But, a couple of folks here have tried to imply that what I say my huband did he didn't actually do.
I know I'm a girl, and I married the 'sifu' and of course I'm biased. 
But, he's a different kind of teacher than what has been the norm. I thought he was awesome before ever there was a thought of dating! lol! that was NEVER my origional thought. That's all him. lol! Anyways... 
ask hubbie why he likes Si-Je (man, I'm getting to hate that title. It doesn't seem to fit me. never did, just call me Nikki)
Either way, even if we weren't together, he's the best martial artist I've ever seen in my life, in person.
And I've seen quite a few. 
One thing my mom once said. " you don't have to travel the world. If you wait enough, the world will come to you!" lol! 
I love that. such a Texan thing to say.
But, she's a homebody, not me so much, I've traveled a bit more than her, but it doesn't matter.
If you wait enough, the world will come to you. That's the Tao, dude. ;p
But, if you don't want to believe me about hubbie, I can understand. Wait for the video! lol! 
then, don't give me anymore excuses!
It is what it is. and he is what he is. an awesome marine, fighter, martial arist, and teacher. ya'll should really meet him. 
You'd love him, and I'd hate that my mouth might make you guys not like him before you know. I'm uppity because he's sooo cool.
I don't know many people who know all of the wing chun system. from two masters.
So what Emin didn't know all WT when hubbie trained from him, he gained a different understanding from NOT knowing. 
And Sifu Jim Fung system taught him all the forms, weapons forms, and mook jong, and CHI. Good combo with the anti-grappling and extra "aggression" of the "blitz" defense of Sifu Emin. Good stuff I tell you! lol!
If you don't believe me, then fine. I don't want to fight. But, attack me, not hubbie. 
I'm the **** talker, not him. lol!
he's the real thing.


----------



## jarrod

i didn't figure you were upset with me, but it's good to clarify.  i HATE that you don't respect bjj, but i do enjoy discussing it with you  

as the late great hunter s. thompson said "all things flow according to the whim of the Great Magnet."  how's that for tao?

jf


----------



## Steve

Si-Je said:


> Why are you here? Do you have something productive to say? Is this why you went on the women's side and called my video a fake to prove a point?
> What IS your point?
> 
> I speak my mind, and I'm truthful on here. If that's not appreciated then fine, I don't need to hear crap from you. BJJ man.
> I'm trying to really find out why people believe this BJJ crap. Did you see the video of the BJJ guy getting his back broken? no? You didn't bother to look at it or comment.
> So, I apologize for possibly offending people while speaking my mind and getting to excited about the discussion and all you have to say is that I'm a troll.
> Nice.
> This is why I "forget" to be polite or diplomatic. What is the point with being nice with people like you? But, I didn't post that for YOU.
> seriously!
> I've given many explainations of technique often here, no one can comment on the WT anti-grappling WC defense and theory against grappling without falling back on old addages and cliches and attacking my person and my husband. I find this pitafull.
> You don't agree with me, then don't bother with me. you won't change my mind, I won't change yours.
> You want to call that video a fake on the women's site, then prove it. I don't care.
> I posted that for the women's input, not yours. I'm so tired of men putting their two cents in when it's not asked for!  I wanted to know what WOMEN'S thoughts were on this situation, fake or not.  Just the idea of a tiny little child defending herself in that fashion.  Do they think it's wrong?  Over excessive? Impractical? What? At least in theory.  But, now that you've posted that it is "probably a fake" then none of them will feel comfortable to respond or give an opinion.
> Who's the troll now?
> Who's shanghiing who?
> Your messing up my experiment, and I don't apprectiate it.  I don't want to "fight" with the women like I do the men, the men pick on me 'cause I'm a girl.  I'm used to it, and I'll give it back.  The women are different.  I want to understand what they think and want.  Not you. Didn't ask YOU.
> I want to know what women think, not men. I KNOW what men think. yawn!
> A troll. lol!
> If that's what I am then you owe me a toll to pass my bridge! lol!
> man, nevermind, it's new years, and I can't let a dude like you ruin my night.
> Peace out, troll toll payer!


I just read the new messages and seldom pay attention to where they are.  

I saw the video you posted and believe it was revealed to be a fake.  I'm pretty sure it's the same video.  I admitted to not being positive.  I plan to give it a look and see if I can find where I saw it.  Sorry.  Didn't mean to stomp around where not wanted.

As for your being a troll, intentionally yanking peoples' chains in order to cause strife and mischief is the very definition of trolling.  That's exactly what you were admitting to.  I just thought it was brazen of you to actually come out and say it like you did.  You say you're truthful, but came out and said that this was all a big experiment for you.  

As for why I'm here, it's to talk about things.  Like most of the people here, I would guess.  I'm not trying to give you crap.  In fact, quite the opposite.  I try to avoid commenting on any of your posts at all, largely because you're beyond reasonable discussion.  You take everything personally and you always end up blowing up at someone and eventually apologizing for and  backtracking on most of what you said. 

I do apologize for responding to a post in the women's area.  I seriously didn't pay attention to where that was.  It shows up in the new messages list just like everyone else's.  

As for the rest, I don't regret it at all.  

Yoshiyahu:  A troll is someone who intentionally causes strife.  The term is from the fishing term, basically casting nets to see what fish are caught.  Trolling is the online version where people post things that they know are inflammatory in order to cause conflict.  I hadn't seen anyone so up front about trolling in a long time.  Among other things, saying mean things to put people on the defensive is trolling.  Inciting arguments is trolling.  Si-je openly admitted to both and more in the post I quoted.  I was genuinely surprised and posted so.

I really wish this thread would get back to reasonable discussions about wing chun and BJJ/grappling.  Had Si-je not turned it into yet another BJJ hatefest, I'd be happily lurking in the thread instead of posting in it.


----------



## Nabakatsu

While it is not my matter in the slightest I feel I must comment.
I feel your comment, stevebjj, kind of took things out of their intended meaning and turned them to look a bit more sinister than it in fact is, if you consider what Si-je is doing, to the extent that she is trolling, than it seems she would not be the only guilty party, you write quite seamlessly, it would be difficult to catch such intentions, especially if one were to defend ones-self in a self-righteous shocked and/or upset manner. whether or not you truly mean harm or are just responding not entirely aware of what it is which you cast out, perhaps it would be an interesting exercise to detach yourself mentally and emotionally away from the thread and re-read some of your posts and not defend anything.. just read and see whether or not you can see anything you would consider snide and or unneccessary, merely as an exercise! even to do it when you think I'm a complete idiot would show a mastery of ones self, which I feel certain can correlate to martial arts of any type, respectfully Naba,
     Happy new years folks!


----------



## theletch1

[playnice] Jeff Letchford [/playnice]


----------



## MJS

Si-Je said:


> What? I told you he sparred with the 10 year BJJ teacher of BJJ and JKD often. He's fought BJJ elsewhere and for real, but that is taboo. He's used it against kids in the USMC, and has fought and sparred with BJJ many many times. That was an example of a time I saw myself.


 
Taboo?  Oh ok....so you give a little tease but nothing more??  Feel free to PM me.  I'd love to hear about this.  



> And no, we are NOT travelling out of state for him to fight. Again, can NOT afford to travel like that. We are getting him registered to fight in TEXAS with TAMMA one of the largest MMA organizations in the nation. Is this not satisfactory? Do you require we travel to Cali?


 
Honestly...I really don't care where he fights.  What I would like to see though, is some video.  You have us all excited about these fights, hopefully they'll actually happen.  And hopefully, he'll be fighting someone good.



> And, again, I haven't claimed WC is "ultimate" you guys keep typing that one in FOR ME. lol! I explain why I believe it is effecient and more practical to BJJ, and yes, in some real self defense scenarios, is superior, but the WORD ultimate wasn't from my actual post, unless quoting or referring to one of you stating your assumption from my statements.
> I'm strong on WC/WT, big deal. Others are just as bad or confident with BJJ. So what?
> Opinions and preferences, and I am intitled to have mine too.


 
OMG, do I really need to explain this to you again?  Are you reading your comments?  Do you see how they sound?  Tell me how this sounds....hubby is a great WC fighter.  Hubby, has sparred and won against a 10yr BJJ guy.  Hubby has never been taken down.  WC is all you really need.  The list goes on and on, but you're saying, without actually saying, that WC is the best art out there, its complete, its all you need.  If you don't understand how that sounds, I don't know what else to tell you.

I also never said that you had to quit WC and take up BJJ.  I simply said for you to look at the GRAPPLING arts, to add to the WC foundation.  I dont care if its Judo, BJJ, Sambo or wrestling....they're all grappling arts and they all have something to offer.  



> I still see no smart comments on the BJJ practitioner that got his back snapped right in half. Just smart talk about how I don't understand it and that's why I don't want to use it. I don't want to use it because I don't want my back broken, or my body slammed on the hard concrete, or to muscle up a large man by the knees and throw him to the ground as he drags me with him. These things coming to mind do NOT tempt me to join the ranks of BJJ.


 
During all the time that I've been rolling, I've never had my back snapped, nor have I seen anyone else with those injuries.  Of course, I have to wonder if the reason why you dont like BJJ, is because deep down you know its a good art, that the chances of you ending up on the ground and losing to a BJJ guy is possible, but you're too proud to admit it.  WC, just like ALL arts, has its weak points.


----------



## MJS

seasoned said:


> Cut and dry guys, the stand up arts, of kicking punching and strikes, allows that person to better defend against multiple opponents. Takes downs put you at a disadvantage with more then one aggressor, with all that rolling around on the ground. If you are fighting more then one person you had better stay up and moving. I am talking street not cage. If three guys confront you, and you are a stand up fighter I would venture to say you could have at least 2 on the ground in a bad way, real fast. If I am a grappler facing 3 guys, I can only concentrate on one at a time. Just my thoughts. And also by the way I have used the groin kick in the street very successfully. It is the pelvic bone you are striking, with that front kick. Very painful.
> The traditional arts cover ground techniques, but it is more on how to deal with them rather then roll with them. A self defense art is something that can be used anywhere, I would hope. What about the LEO we have on board. I know you have all the toys at your disposal, but if it comes down to it, do you want to roll around on the ground with them, along with your firearm? I have been to a lot of DT classes, and a lot are different, do some instructors teach grappling within that context?


 
I've never advocated rolling on the ground in a real fight, esp. with the chances of more than 1 person.  I do advocate the study of how a grappler works, so that the stand up techs. can better adapt.


----------



## MJS

Yoshiyahu said:


> Come on man...Its her husband...Come on If she doesn't think her Hubbie can beat every man on earth that what type of wife should she be....She is a woman who devoted to her husband...she is suppose to believe he is undefeated....
> 
> 
> come on man get real...now your throwing low blows....
> 
> Doesn't your wife think your the best in the world too?


 
LOL, dude are you serious here??  See, the difference is, I don't walk around thinking I'm a badass.  I understand that I have weak areas, I understand that every art has a weak spot, I understand that theres always someone bigger and better.  I strive to improve those areas.

But, you will not hear me say that I will never be taken down, that I've kicked the *** of everyone I've sparred with.  Those are things that others say, not me.


----------



## MJS

stevebjj said:


> So. Basically you're admitting to being a troll? Wow.


 
I guess someone forgot to read the forum rules when they joined up.


----------



## MJS

Si-Je said:


> I'm not yelling at you, darlin'. lol! just yelling at that mean guy that called me a "troll".
> But, a couple of folks here have tried to imply that what I say my huband did he didn't actually do.
> I know I'm a girl, and I married the 'sifu' and of course I'm biased.
> But, he's a different kind of teacher than what has been the norm. I thought he was awesome before ever there was a thought of dating! lol! that was NEVER my origional thought. That's all him. lol! Anyways...
> ask hubbie why he likes Si-Je (man, I'm getting to hate that title. It doesn't seem to fit me. never did, just call me Nikki)
> Either way, even if we weren't together, he's the best martial artist I've ever seen in my life, in person.
> And I've seen quite a few.
> One thing my mom once said. " you don't have to travel the world. If you wait enough, the world will come to you!" lol!
> I love that. such a Texan thing to say.
> But, she's a homebody, not me so much, I've traveled a bit more than her, but it doesn't matter.
> If you wait enough, the world will come to you. That's the Tao, dude. ;p
> But, if you don't want to believe me about hubbie, I can understand. Wait for the video! lol!
> then, don't give me anymore excuses!
> It is what it is. and he is what he is. an awesome marine, fighter, martial arist, and teacher. ya'll should really meet him.
> You'd love him, and I'd hate that my mouth might make you guys not like him before you know. I'm uppity because he's sooo cool.
> I don't know many people who know all of the wing chun system. from two masters.
> So what Emin didn't know all WT when hubbie trained from him, he gained a different understanding from NOT knowing.
> And Sifu Jim Fung system taught him all the forms, weapons forms, and mook jong, and CHI. Good combo with the anti-grappling and extra "aggression" of the "blitz" defense of Sifu Emin. Good stuff I tell you! lol!
> If you don't believe me, then fine. I don't want to fight. But, attack me, not hubbie.
> I'm the sh*1 talker, not him. lol!
> he's the real thing.


 
Biased??  Thats an understatement! LOL! LOL!  See, all I'm simply trying to do is get you to see what else is out there.  Its clear that you dont want to, but like I said, its not good to be so blinded.  Open your eyes for a moment, and look at how other arts deal with things.  Like I said, NO art has all the answers.  Not TKD, Ninjutsu, Kenpo, and not WC.


----------



## MJS

Si-Je said:


> Why are you here? Do you have something productive to say? Is this why you went on the women's side and called my video a fake to prove a point?
> What IS your point?
> 
> I speak my mind, and I'm truthful on here. If that's not appreciated then fine, I don't need to hear crap from you. BJJ man.
> I'm trying to really find out why people believe this BJJ crap. Did you see the video of the BJJ guy getting his back broken? no? You didn't bother to look at it or comment.
> So, I apologize for possibly offending people while speaking my mind and getting to excited about the discussion and all you have to say is that I'm a troll.
> Nice.
> This is why I "forget" to be polite or diplomatic. What is the point with being nice with people like you? But, I didn't post that for YOU.
> seriously!
> I've given many explainations of technique often here, no one can comment on the WT anti-grappling WC defense and theory against grappling without falling back on old addages and cliches and attacking my person and my husband. I find this pitafull.
> You don't agree with me, then don't bother with me. you won't change my mind, I won't change yours.
> You want to call that video a fake on the women's site, then prove it. I don't care.
> I posted that for the women's input, not yours. I'm so tired of men putting their two cents in when it's not asked for! I wanted to know what WOMEN'S thoughts were on this situation, fake or not. Just the idea of a tiny little child defending herself in that fashion. Do they think it's wrong? Over excessive? Impractical? What? At least in theory. But, now that you've posted that it is "probably a fake" then none of them will feel comfortable to respond or give an opinion.
> Who's the troll now?
> Who's shanghiing who?
> Your messing up my experiment, and I don't apprectiate it. I don't want to "fight" with the women like I do the men, the men pick on me 'cause I'm a girl. I'm used to it, and I'll give it back. The women are different. I want to understand what they think and want. Not you. Didn't ask YOU.
> I want to know what women think, not men. I KNOW what men think. yawn!
> A troll. lol!
> If that's what I am then you owe me a toll to pass my bridge! lol!
> man, nevermind, it's new years, and I can't let a dude like you ruin my night.
> Peace out, troll toll payer!


 
Oh and sije...I think it may be a good idea for you to refresh yourself on the forums rules.  Trolling is a big no-no here.  Messing up your experiment??  Hmmmmm


----------



## seasoned

MJS said:


> I've never advocated rolling on the ground in a real fight, esp. with the chances of more than 1 person. I do advocate the study of how a grappler works, so that the stand up techs. can better adapt.


 


My post is only a reflection of my feeling toward SD. Everyone will base these reflections on their past training, and what in the past, has worked for them. As I post, I only look at things, as I would react, and in no way try to demean anyone else. It only takes one good executed technique, what ever it is, to stop an attack. Sometimes while typing, and reading these posts, we all have a tendency to focus the content of that post upon ourselves, and the way we train. As long as we keep it civil, and within the site rules, I feel it is an excellent platform to learn, and grow from. Anyone that teaches any martial arts should first have confidence in their art, and its ability to defeat someone in battle. This is what teaching is all about. But, as we teach we should make it clear that we should not underestimate anyone. Everyone has the potential to hurt anyone regardless of their rank, belt, or mastery, in any art.


----------



## Si-Je

MJS you seem to be very agitated, this is why I apologized for coming off so strong and hard.  But, sense my apology is not being accepted I will just have to continue and try to be more diplomatic.  Although with this very topic that is very hard for me and I'll tell you why.
This is a topic started to promote the idea that Wing Chun needs BJJ and that it would help a Wing Chun practitioner.
I find this horribly false, and that it infringes on my art.  To say that a Wing Chun practitioner needs another art to make it well balanced to me is insulting to my art.  Especially BJJ of all styles.
I don't like BJJ because it is not a good art.  This is my opinion. That it is not a good art for one that trains MA with the goal of realistic self defense mainly Wing Chun.
I feel that BJJ would lessen and diminish the art of Wing Chun, keeping people from continuing to further their understanding and training in the advanced concepts and techniques of Wing Chun.  I.e. - instead of learning to kick and hit an opponent from a "grappling" distance, people would resort to BJJ.  Thus, losing that range of WT/WC possibly forever.  This does anger me, and I don't want people to waterdown their WC/WT to suit students that just don't want to fully train the art.

As for my husband and his experiences.  I've shared some of them here to help support and give examples to what I've been saying.  And yes, he's the best Wing Chun practitioner I've ever met, my teacher, my friend, and my husband.  If you have a problem with that, then that has nothing to do with me.  That's all you.

He is training for cage fights, this takes time and we're not going to rush his training to prove anything to you.  This costs money that we have to plan, save, and be careful when we spend it, and we're not going to put our family through finiancial hardship just to speed things up for you or anyone.  
When his conditioning is up, when his training is done, when we have the money to register him, and when we get a fight scheduled (a real one, from a real promoter that isn't going to jerk us around) then you shall have your beloved video.  

Again, I'm not in a rush because I know it won't matter to the nay sayers.  You'll all have the excuses you need, ex. he didn't fight anyone any GOOD, the guy he happened to get on a fight card with wasn't actually a Gracie BJJ guy, hubbie's too big and strong for the guy in the cage against, whatever.  I'm sure they'll be more I can't even think of.  But, you'll have you video.

I'm sorry if I thought we had that last fight, but it's out of my control if the promoter is a scumbag.  The only thing we can do is move on and find someone else.  I don't know alot about this industry and have had a bit of a hard time finding out the information I needed for our area, hey, I'm new to this.

But, we're NOT new to WT/WC and we're NOT new to defending against BJJ.
So, again, I find that I may have come off strong again, but am finding that maybe I'm just strong in my conviction of the value of my art.  So be it.


----------



## Si-Je

MJS said:


> Oh and sije...I think it may be a good idea for you to refresh yourself on the forums rules. Trolling is a big no-no here. Messing up your experiment?? Hmmmmm


 
Trolling is not my intention.  Speaking honestly and being forthright about my true thoughs on these threads is.  If people cannot handle being disagreed with is that 'trolling'?
Sometimes you cannot be as diplomatic as you'd like when discussing topics such as this.  That doesn't mean I'm wanting to be hurtful and rude to people.  But, many comments made directed exactly at me and my husband have not been made with diplomacy either.  So, basically, your saying that others can trash my ideas, statements, misquote me, and make fun of my art, husband and self and I'm not allowed to make a comment or stand up for myself and my art?  
I see.
It's okay for others to make fun of Wing Chun, and talk down about it and it's teachers, it's practicality and such but it's not okay for me to disagree or dispute?
I do think alot of people need somone to stop being so meek and tiptoing around these issues and be real to change their thinking or give them another way to percieve things.
It is not my intention to "troll".  In my opinion I see other "trolls" than myself, but have chosen to let it slide.


----------



## Steve

Whether the Wing Chun practitioner cross trains in BJJ, or the WC practitioner adapts his/her training to address the threat that BJJ poses, BJJ has made the art and the artist better.

I'm not sure why, si-je, you have such a chip on your shoulder for BJJ or for those who train and enjoy it.  You do, though, so there it is.  Getting away from whether or not BJJ is effective, or whether or not anti-grappling works, can you at least admit that BJJ has changed WC?  The very fact that anti-grappling has been developed specifically to address the threat that lutadors and other grapplers pose is a testament to the effectiveness of BJJ and other styles of grappling.

So, addressing the original post, grappling and the threat of being taken to the ground must be tackled by the practitioner (haha... tackled... get it?).   If we can agree on that, then it's a matter of discussing what's the best approach.  Anti-grappling or actually studying a grappling art.

I personally believe that the best way to counter a technique is to learn the technique.  Anti-grappling, IMO, is a misnomer.  It's just grappling.  To counter grappling, one must learn to grapple.  

As for what works and what doesn't, my opinion is that it depends upon how one trains.  If you train BJJ in a vacuum, never spar or pressure test the techniques, and never move past drills, BJJ would be functionally inneffective.  It's not the art.  The techniques are sound in BJJ, but only if they're trained effectively.  My opinion is that other arts are the same.  If you train WC in a vacuum, never pressure test the "anti-grappling" against proficient, competent grapplers, than the techniques have little chance of success.  Conversely, if the techniques are pressure tested and trained well, chances of success go up.  

In conclusion, I personally feel that your clear bias for WC over other arts and clear bias against BJJ as inferior to all other arts muddies the waters.  Whether or not you admit it, BJJ has changed WC.  As I said before, the very fact that "anti-grappling" exists demonstrates the truth of this.

Edit to add: I have never, and never intend to, mock or make fun of anyone's martial art.  I have nothing against WC/WT or any other style as a whole.  I get very, very tired of interesting threads devolving into an anti-bjj/mma bickerfest.  And trolling isn't disagreeing.  There is a big difference.


----------



## Si-Je

Si-Je said:


> I don't like BJJ because it is not a good art. This is my opinion. That it is not a good art for one that trains MA with the goal of realistic self defense mainly Wing Chun.
> I feel that BJJ would lessen and diminish the art of Wing Chun, keeping people from continuing to further their understanding and training in the advanced concepts and techniques of Wing Chun. I.e. - instead of learning to kick and hit an opponent from a "grappling" distance, people would resort to BJJ. Thus, losing that range of WT/WC possibly forever.


 

What arrogance SteveBJJ.  To state that BJJ is the only wrestling art in existance and that it is because of BJJ that anti-grappling was created.  There are far better wresting styles out there than BJJ, that have been tested longer in combat, and over much longer periods of time.  Wrestling has been around since the beginning of time, are you going to give BJJ credit for the MA styles of thousands of years ago?
This is why I don't like BJJ and some of it's practicioners.  The arrogance and misguided view of the very history of martial arts is astounding! lol!
I saw an interview of a Gracie teacher on t.v. a couple of years ago bragging to the camera and his student's that BJJ was the first martial art invented on Earth, that all martial arts stems from it. I was FLOOORED! 
And people believed this without question.
I'm just asking you to question, to think outside of the box.  You BJJ guys spout the same jargon and speak word for word verbatum the same arguments like your pod people and your minds are not your own.  No matter who I talk to or hear talking about BJJ ya'll say the very same statements like you memorized them in class or something.  ???? I just don't get that mentality.
Someone wants to talk to you.


----------



## Mystic Wolf

I have studied other arts and none come to compare to WC/WT, but then again to each there own. One thing I have learned from where I live and being a Marine, it is not the style you fight with but the will to survive. When I fight, I do not fight to win, I fight to hurt. One way or another, I am going take down the person who threatens me or my family and therefore they will think twice before messing with me again. 

So whether it is BJJ, Karate, Street Fighting, or Wing Chun, it is up to the individuale and how much heart they have to survive in a confritation. A peron can be skilled in an art but still have no heart or courage to face there adversary. 

When it comes down to it, I will gouge your eyes, twist your nuts, bite your ears ect..., it is all about survival.


----------



## Si-Je

Okay, I'll chill.  You guys want to add BJJ to your "stand up game" and Wing Chun all the power too you.  
I still feel that many would lose out on the knowledge of WT/WC techniques used in that range.  This is a range I am just now really getting a feel for in training WC/WT, so my knowledge of what to do using Wing Chun in grappling range may be a bit limited for some grapplers to understand what I'm trying to say.
I can do it, but I'm not at the level to where I can explain it very well at all.  I've used simple grade 1 and 2 techniques to stop a grapplers takedown or shoot in attempts. 
And utilization of chi sau on the ground with arms and legs to use against a grappler I've just started to get into fully.  
But, the biggest misconception I see online here and elsewhere is the assumption that Anti-grappling techniques are just re-hashed grappling.  This truely is not so.  I thought that too at first, but the entire motivation and action of anti-grappling is that you DON'T grab the opponent, wrestle them, or grapple back.  If they grab you you do not grab them back.  Very similar to the WT/WC standing escapes from being grabbed when standing.  You still apply WC concepts on the ground and in a clinch as you would standing.  
Again, this is something I understand how to utilize, train, and spar with, but I'm not fully knowledgable to describe it in text to do it much justice.
That's the whole reason for being a Si-Je, this is when I learn how to explain the art backwards and forwards.  This takes years, and is precursor to learning how to be a teacher of the art.  I could drop the Si-Je and stop teaching completely and just continue to focus only on learning and refining my skill in WT/WC and be the same martial artist for it.  But, I would no longer be in "training" to become a teacher of the art.  Not everyone is a good teacher, and I may be finding out that teaching is not for me, or that I'm not good enough to explain WC/WT concepts to students where they understand the art correctly and don't feel that they have to cross train to be better suited to defend themselves.
If I can't give my student's confidence in the art, then I have no business teaching it.  Plain and Simple.
That's probably why I get so riled up here sometimes.  I want to be a good teacher, I love to teach WC/WT, but if I can't make these concepts clear to people then it would be best to stand back and let Hubbie find another assistant teacher.  (He should have one in another 2-3 years).  This is something I've been thinking about alot these past few months, mainly based on the fact that so many who train WC/WT here cannot understand or don't like what I'm saying.  I'm not suited to teach.


----------



## Steve

Sigh.   Okay.  I specifically said "and other styles of grappling.".  I take nothing away from judo, catch wrestling, sambo or any other grappling art.  

In the first few sentences, I'm specifically addressing the place grappling had in the consciousness if MA practitioners before and after UFC 1.  There is also the very real and undeniable impact BJJ has had on the popularity of MA in general and grappling specifically.  That's not arrogance.  In fact I take no personal credit or pride for any of it. It's not my art, simply the one in which I train.  

If you choose to ignore the impact BJJ has had in recent history, since '93 in the world then it's you who isn't seeing things with an open eye. 





Si-Je said:


> What arrogance SteveBJJ.  To state that BJJ is the only wrestling art in existance and that it is because of BJJ that anti-grappling was created.  There are far better wresting styles out there than BJJ, that have been tested longer in combat, and over much longer periods of time.  Wrestling has been around since the beginning of time, are you going to give BJJ credit for the MA styles of thousands of years ago?
> This is why I don't like BJJ and some of it's practicioners.  The arrogance and misguided view of the very history of martial arts is astounding! lol!
> I saw an interview of a Gracie teacher on t.v. a couple of years ago bragging to the camera and his student's that BJJ was the first martial art invented on Earth, that all martial arts stems from it. I was FLOOORED!
> And people believed this without question.
> I'm just asking you to question, to think outside of the box.  You BJJ guys spout the same jargon and speak word for word verbatum the same arguments like your pod people and your minds are not your own.  No matter who I talk to or hear talking about BJJ ya'll say the very same statements like you memorized them in class or something.  ???? I just don't get that mentality.
> Someone wants to talk to you.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Si-Je really the vast majority of people who practice BJJ are not arrogant anymore so than in any other system. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  SteveBJJ is making some rather good points as no one can doubt that the UFC and BJJ have changed how practitioners of martial systems are studying.


----------



## Si-Je

stevebjj said:


> Sigh. Okay. I specifically said "and other styles of grappling.". I take nothing away from judo, catch wrestling, sambo or any other grappling art.
> 
> In the first few sentences, I'm specifically addressing the place grappling had in the consciousness if MA practitioners before and after UFC 1. There is also the very real and undeniable impact BJJ has had on the popularity of MA in general and grappling specifically. That's not arrogance. In fact I take no personal credit or pride for any of it. It's not my art, simply the one in which I train.
> 
> If you choose to ignore the impact BJJ has had in recent history, since '93 in the world then it's you who isn't seeing things with an open eye.


 
That's fine do what you want.  So tell me how Wing Chun concepts can be applied to BJJ?  Why is it so "easy" to mesh the two arts?


----------



## The Last Legionary

WC doesn't need BJJ anymore than BJJ needs WC. Or FMA. Or JMA. Or MSMD. Or McD.

WC is what it is, and it's not what it's not. 

It's not "The Best". It's not "The One". It's not "The Right Thing".
Unless it is, in which case, there you are baby! Whoooo!
:matrix:

Though I think there's more cuddling in BJJ than WC, and I find watching WC is kinda like watching paint dry, but not quite as exciting.

:dramaqueen:

As to "Hubbie", let him talk for himself, unless it's too difficult for him to find the registration option, or if we are all too far below such an exalted master of the arts.
:moon:

One can post here without being an *** hole. Some however aren't capable of it.
RTFM

Like me. I rather enjoy pointing at stupid ****ers and laughing.

Like I am right now.

I wonder who I'm pointing at?
:2xbird:

Now, if you want "Womens Only", there is a "Womens Only" section, that no "Men" are allowed in. Ask one of the "Ladies Locker Room" Guardians like Shesulsa about it. I have no idea what's required as they asked me for proof of gender and when I showed them, they said it wasn't enough.

It was a cold day, damn it!

:waah:


----------



## Si-Je

The Last Legionary said:


> WC doesn't need BJJ anymore than BJJ needs WC. Or FMA. Or JMA. Or MSMD. Or McD.
> 
> WC is what it is, and it's not what it's not.
> 
> It's not "The Best". It's not "The One". It's not "The Right Thing".
> Unless it is, in which case, there you are baby! Whoooo!
> :matrix:
> 
> Though I think there's more cuddling in BJJ than WC, and I find watching WC is kinda like watching paint dry, but not quite as exciting.
> 
> :dramaqueen:
> 
> As to "Hubbie", let him talk for himself, unless it's too difficult for him to find the registration option, or if we are all too far below such an exalted master of the arts.
> :moon:
> 
> One can post here without being an *** hole. Some however aren't capable of it.
> RTFM
> 
> Like me. I rather enjoy pointing at stupid ****ers and laughing.
> 
> Like I am right now.
> 
> I wonder who I'm pointing at?
> :2xbird:
> 
> Now, if you want "Womens Only", there is a "Womens Only" section, that no "Men" are allowed in. Ask one of the "Ladies Locker Room" Guardians like Shesulsa about it. I have no idea what's required as they asked me for proof of gender and when I showed them, they said it wasn't enough.
> 
> It was a cold day, damn it!
> 
> :waah:


 
All I wanted was to hear a female point of view, not discuss whether a video was real or not or have the thread totally derailed arguing over who can post, that was not my intention. I never said men weren't "allowed" in, I simply asked for women to tell me what they thought. 
But, whatever, the thread was hijacked, it's done. Take it off. I don't care what the ladies think about self-defense anymore, I'm totally discouraged from ever trying to bring it up again. From what I've read so far it's not really very impressive. Get over it, it's over. You won't hear anything about self defense from me again. Ya'll train what you want.

As for you, I have no interest in your statements or your cocky, rude attitude, and find your post akin to watching paint dry. lol!
You think I'm an *** hole, fine, that's your right to your own opinion. I'll keep the right to have my opinion too, and that stands on this topic several times throughout this board.
Teachers want to supplement WC with BJJ they don't need to be teaching WC, or anyother art for that matter. If you don't believe in the art your teaching, I don't see the point in teaching it other than to make a buck.
If you want to teach multiple arts, then teach MMA and stop calling it WC. Simple as that.  That's how I feel about it, that's what I think about it, that's my opinion about it.


----------



## The Last Legionary

Ow. I pissed off the FemaNazi. Oooh. I'm a baad boy!
:bangahead:

Honestly chickiedee, your attitude in your postings is pretty "cult fanatic", and it's quite obvious what flavor your Kool Aid is.

:drink2tha

Here's some friendly advice. 

If you want friendly replies, make friendly posts.
Use the IGNORE Feature to weed out those who give you a case of the vapors. You know, like me.
If you want a woman's perspective, there's a woman-only area. Post elsewhere, you'll get Male Polution. Like now.
For the record, I don't cuddle and I don't wax on or wax off. I shoot things from long range:snipe:  Chi Sao and SLT give me gas. I think my Chi is bad. I blame Kim. :lfao:

But rather than butting heads like you are, maybe you want to report things to this sites staff. See, it's their job to keep things on track and keep things from going :flame:


As to the rest well, :sadsong:


----------



## Mystic Wolf

The Last Legionary said:


> WC doesn't need BJJ anymore than BJJ needs WC. Or FMA. Or JMA. Or MSMD. Or McD.
> 
> WC is what it is, and it's not what it's not.
> 
> It's not "The Best". It's not "The One". It's not "The Right Thing".
> Unless it is, in which case, there you are baby! Whoooo!
> :matrix:
> 
> Though I think there's more cuddling in BJJ than WC, and I find watching WC is kinda like watching paint dry, but not quite as exciting.
> 
> :dramaqueen:
> 
> As to "Hubbie", let him talk for himself, unless it's too difficult for him to find the registration option, or if we are all too far below such an exalted master of the arts.
> :moon:
> 
> One can post here without being an *** hole. Some however aren't capable of it.
> RTFM
> 
> Like me. I rather enjoy pointing at stupid ****ers and laughing.
> 
> Like I am right now.
> 
> I wonder who I'm pointing at?
> :2xbird:
> 
> Now, if you want "Womens Only", there is a "Womens Only" section, that no "Men" are allowed in. Ask one of the "Ladies Locker Room" Guardians like Shesulsa about it. I have no idea what's required as they asked me for proof of gender and when I showed them, they said it wasn't enough.
> 
> It was a cold day, damn it!
> 
> :waah:


 

BJJ was designed for todays society, the fast food McDonalds society.  People don't have the attention span or the patience to learn an art all the way through.  As for me, I've been studying MA since the age of 11, I have earned black belt in several arts.  And been practicing Wing Chun for over 13 years. I find that Wing Chun is more effective than the other arts I've studied.  But, to learn Wing Chun's complete effectiveness, whether sitting, standing, or on the ground it does take years to learn.
And in today's society, people want everything NOW and BJJ is easy to learn.

We can aurgue all day long about which art is better, but it comes down to the individual. Who has the most heart and is willing to do what it takes.

To me BJJ is like watching paint dry and WC is like planting a field of knowledge.

WC is more than learning how to fight, it is about learning to better one's self in mind, body, and spirit.

And I am Si-JE's Hubbie.


----------



## Steve

Si-Je said:


> The guy he's demonstrating on he states was a "long time in Ju-jitsu" or wrestling or whatever.  At the end he "grapples" with the guy to demonstrate why this isn't advantageous to you.
> Learn this stuff if your a chunner, I thought everyone did this because hubbie teaches this.  I didn't know he mixed two masters my first two years of training, or what that ment.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uynAfOSiqmg


I'm pretty confident that the uke isn't a BJJ guy.  I didn't recognize any of that as sound BJJ technique for passing guard.  I'd be willing to guess that he's not well trained in sambo either, as Emin exposes his ankles and there's no attempt to work knee or ankle submissions. 

The first part of that video was essentially open guard.  Emin is working open guard against someone trying to dive around his legs.  Open guard is simply a label for the position.  Emin's legs are in between himself and the opponent.  A BJJ guy wouldn't pass guard without controlling the ankles or if grips were available, using pants to control the knees.  Slapping and swatting the legs in an attempt to bull rush isn't a controlled guard pass.  

Here's one version of an open guard pass.  JJ Machado does two things that I think are important and relevant to this discussion.  He controls the opponent's legs and he maintains strong base throughout the pass.  




The difference between the above technique and the attempts to pass guard by the uke in Emin's video is significant.  If I can't control the legs, I'm not going to get around them.   What I would never do, however, is surrender my base so easily by attempting to dive through my opponent's legs.  Slapping his foot doesn't count.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtchJFlXeRo&feature=related

The above video demonstrates control of the knees.  Where in the first video, JJ Machado controls first the ankles, in the second, because there are grips available, he effectively pins the legs down to control them in order to move around them.

I would invite anyone to do a search on the internet or any instructional anywhere for open guard pass in BJJ.  I would be very surprised if you find one that doesn't involve first controlling the opponent's legs.  

What's interesting to me is that Emin's demonstrations have more in common with BJJ than the "grappler" uking for him.  He uses all of his limbs, until he is in control he keeps his legs in between himself and his opponent, and he works first for positional dominance.  Position before submission.  The chain punching is all WC, but the grappling he does before that is just grappling.

As I said elsewhere, I think the keys to success with that grappling are in how it's trained. I am not saying that the techniques demonstrated by Emin wouldn't work.  What I am saying is that it's hard to tell from the video because I don't know how the average WC guy trains the techniques, and I haven't seen them demonstrated against sound grappling.


----------



## Steve

Si-Je said:


> That's fine do what you want.  So tell me how Wing Chun concepts can be applied to BJJ?  Why is it so "easy" to mesh the two arts?


LOL.  I don't train WC.  I was interested in reading from others how, or even whether or not, they would mesh.  I don't see why they wouldn't, though.  I mentioned in my last post how it seemed that Emin's demonstration exhibited more solid BJJ fundamentals than his "grappler" uke.


----------



## Mystic Wolf

stevebjj said:


> I'm pretty confident that the uke isn't a BJJ guy. I didn't recognize any of that as sound BJJ technique for passing guard. I'd be willing to guess that he's not well trained in sambo either, as Emin exposes his ankles and there's no attempt to work knee or ankle submissions.
> 
> The first part of that video was essentially open guard. Emin is working open guard against someone trying to dive around his legs. Open guard is simply a label for the position. Emin's legs are in between himself and the opponent. A BJJ guy wouldn't pass guard without controlling the ankles or if grips were available, using pants to control the knees. Slapping and swatting the legs in an attempt to bull rush isn't a controlled guard pass.
> 
> Here's one version of an open guard pass. JJ Machado does two things that I think are important and relevant to this discussion. He controls the opponent's legs and he maintains strong base throughout the pass.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The difference between the above technique and the attempts to pass guard by the uke in Emin's video is significant. If I can't control the legs, I'm not going to get around them. What I would never do, however, is surrender my base so easily by attempting to dive through my opponent's legs. Slapping his foot doesn't count.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtchJFlXeRo&feature=related
> 
> The above video demonstrates control of the knees. Where in the first video, JJ Machado controls first the ankles, in the second, because there are grips available, he effectively pins the legs down to control them in order to move around them.
> 
> I would invite anyone to do a search on the internet or any instructional anywhere for open guard pass in BJJ. I would be very surprised if you find one that doesn't involve first controlling the opponent's legs.
> 
> What's interesting to me is that Emin's demonstrations have more in common with BJJ than the "grappler" uking for him. He uses all of his limbs, until he is in control he keeps his legs in between himself and his opponent, and he works first for positional dominance. Position before submission. The chain punching is all WC, but the grappling he does before that is just grappling.
> 
> As I said elsewhere, I think the keys to success with that grappling are in how it's trained. I am not saying that the techniques demonstrated by Emin wouldn't work. What I am saying is that it's hard to tell from the video because I don't know how the average WC guy trains the techniques, and I haven't seen them demonstrated against sound grappling.


 
To understand how to use the legs while on your back in WT, first you must have an understanding of Chi Sau and what spring energy is. With out these understanding, you will have no idea what he is talking about.


----------



## Steve

Mystic Wolf said:


> BJJ was designed for todays society, the fast food McDonalds society.  People don't have the attention span or the patience to learn an art all the way through.  As for me, I've been studying MA since the age of 11, I have earned black belt in several arts.  And been practicing Wing Chun for over 13 years. I find that Wing Chun is more effective than the other arts I've studied.  But, to learn Wing Chun's complete effectiveness, whether sitting, standing, or on the ground it does take years to learn.
> And in today's society, people want everything NOW and BJJ is easy to learn.
> 
> We can aurgue all day long about which art is better, but it comes down to the individual. Who has the most heart and is willing to do what it takes.
> 
> To me BJJ is like watching paint dry and WC is like planting a field of knowledge.
> 
> WC is more than learning how to fight, it is about learning to better one's self in mind, body, and spirit.
> 
> And I am Si-JE's Hubbie.


Welcome, Si-Je's hubbie!    The only thing I can really disagree with in this post is that somehow BJJ is easy to learn.  Considering that it takes on average 10 years to acheive black belt, it's up there among the more difficult.  If it were easy to learn, there'd be a lot less bad BJJ out there being taught in McDojos trying to jump on the MMA gravy train.


----------



## Steve

Mystic Wolf said:


> To understand how to use the legs while on your back in WT, first you must have an understanding of Chi Sau and what spring energy is. With out these understanding, you will have no idea what he is talking about.


That may very well be true.  Sometimes we don't know what we don't know.  Right? 

But it sure looks like basic open guard technique and fundamental positional control.  I frequently work a guard much like that, although I would try if possible to control my opponent's arms and avoid staying so flat.

Edit:  Just wanted to add, the post of mine that you responded to was less about Emin's technique than about his uke.  To understand how his techniques might work, I would like to see them demonstrated counter fundamentally sound grappling technique, such as I provided examples of in my post.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

stevebjj said:


> Welcome, Si-Je's hubbie!    The only thing I can really disagree with in this post is that somehow BJJ is easy to learn.  Considering that it takes on average 10 years to acheive black belt, it's up there among the more difficult.  If it were easy to learn, there'd be a lot less bad BJJ out there being taught in McDojos trying to jump on the MMA gravy train.



Definitely in agreement here stevebjj.

BJJ is very difficult as is any really effective grappling system.  To many little details are missed by not paying attention to the very fine points.  That is what makes one grappling practitioner good and someone else just average at best.  Unfortunately people are rushing in and missing a lot of those details,


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## theletch1

Attention all users!!!
This is the second warning in this thread to keep the conversation polite and respectful.  This is the last warning which will be placed in this thread before it gets locked.  I suggest that each and every person posting to this thread re-acquaint themselves with the general posting rules for the forum.  If you are encountering problems with the posts of another member use the report to moderator function... do not reply to them in thread.
Attention all users!!


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## Brian R. VanCise

Mystic Wolf we are of course glad to have you here at MartialTalk!


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## Mystic Wolf

All I am saying, study the art you are in, disect each movement and work with the flowing of the movement. Do not stay to focused on one technique, flow on to the next.

What a lot of Martial Artist do is take a little of this and a little of that and do not take the time to learn the whole art and miss the big picture. Atleast stay with it till you make black belt before moving on to the next art, this will make you more knowledgable in Martial Arts.


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## arnisador

Mystic Wolf said:


> BJJ was designed for todays society, the fast food McDonalds society.  People don't have the attention span or the patience to learn an art all the way through.



Wow, I'm no expert in either BJJ or WC but I have studied both and I think you don't realize the depth and difficulty in BJJ! The subtleties of position and the detailed strategies would appeal to a WC person, I think. It takes much longer to be recognized as an expert in BJJ by one's peers than in WC, in my experience.

I much preferred WC, but BJJ adds something very useful.



> And I am Si-JE's Hubbie.



Thanks for posting!


----------



## Yoshiyahu

I read your statement...you just validated what I said...You said you never say you kicked the **** of everyone you sparred. Thats something others say....

Well she is not saying she never been taking down or beat everyone she sparred...She is saying that her husband is the greatest...She falls under the other say those things not me...Her Husband never came on her bragging how he defeat all of us on here...

She thinks the greatest about her husband...She should...As should your wives...But to tell her not to think highly of her husband is just absord...Thats her man...


Of course she thinks there no one better its her husband...Give her a break in that respect. 



MJS said:


> LOL, dude are you serious here?? See, the difference is, I don't walk around thinking I'm a badass. I understand that I have weak areas, I understand that every art has a weak spot, I understand that theres always someone bigger and better. I strive to improve those areas.
> 
> But, you will not hear me say that I will never be taken down, that I've kicked the *** of everyone I've sparred with. Those are things that others say, not me.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

She has had training in Jujitsu and a Karate style...So she may have an idea what else is out there?




MJS said:


> Biased?? Thats an understatement! LOL! LOL! See, all I'm simply trying to do is get you to see what else is out there. Its clear that you dont want to, but like I said, its not good to be so blinded. Open your eyes for a moment, and look at how other arts deal with things. Like I said, NO art has all the answers. Not TKD, Ninjutsu, Kenpo, and not WC.


----------



## Si-Je

Yoshiyahu said:


> She has had training in Jujitsu and a Karate style...So she may have an idea what else is out there?


 
Thank you Yoshi!
The styles I've taken for the record in order of when I took them, again: Tang Soo Do (3 years), Goshin Ju-Jitsu (3 years), Wu Wai Kung fu (6 months), TaiJi (very little though), Go Ju Ryu Karate (before it merged with Kempo 6months), Kali (6 months) KenJitsu (1 year) Japanese weapons (3 years), and now, Wing Chun (4 years).


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## Mystic Wolf

Wing Chun is an art that is always evolving, but it always stays within the 5 basic principles of Wing Chun.  Utilizing sensitivity, spring energy, and rooting.  I discect each movement of the forms of Wing Chun and apply them under different scenarios to see what flows best from one motion to the next.  I do this while I'm standing, sitting, and on the ground.  Utilizing all parts of my body.  
By doing so, helps me obtain a better understanding of Wing Chun and how to utilize the techniques.
The goal I teach the students is they have 5 seconds to get off the ground once they're put there.  This is our primary focus to get off the ground quickly.
Being on the ground is a dangerous place, especially if your fighting multiple attackers.  And most confrontations I have been in there has always been two or more attackers.


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## Yoshiyahu

I see some faults in what your saying?


Wing Chun is already a Mixed Martial Arts...

BJJ is just grappling or wrestling...Ground Fighting is just Wrestling right...Well Ground fighting has existed before Wing Chun did right?
BJJ has existed how long? I think someone said 1993..Well Wing Chun would have been exposed to ground fighting way before it even came to America...You got Judo,Monkey Fighting,Sanda,JuiJitsu,Aikido, Hapkido and many other Arts Ancient WC masters fought and sparred with in the past to prove Wing Chun Works...An many masters defeated those wrestlers...
So its not BJJ that has changed Wing Chun...BJJ Fighters have changed their Brazilian Jitjisu according to Wing Chun and Muay Thai. Boxing has not changed because of BJJ...BJJ has changed because of boxing. It is seeking ways to counter these styles. So it has to adapt a standing game to succeed. But Wing Chun already had Grappling with in it...Not all styles deal with Grappling but its in there...From the time you grab a leg or arm or hips or thigh...Wing Chun has had ways to advoid or counter those moves. Some Sifu's only teach the kicking and punching aspect...But hidden with in the forms there are all the answers for you. Also if you have a skilled Sifu to go over with you how to apply Wing Chun Techniques on the ground or standing grappling.

Wing Chun in China has not changed...So BJJ has no impact on Wing Chun...


Okay BJJ originates from Judo and Japanese Juijitsu

Wing Chun actually days back to 1800's. At which time over the years various masters fought all types of fighters including japanese and chinese and Tawianese and Thai. Wing Chun has Take Downs and throws. Wing Chun has anti Chin Na and Grappling. 

It mainly deals with fighting standing up. But if you go to ground. You have the basic blocks to use...Fist strikes. Trapping hands and grappling hands techniques to use. You can chain punch the face which doesn't require one to drag back the Arms...Wing Chun even has chokeholds or neck grabs. 

*Here is statement about Wing Chun Sifu Wong using Throws:*


> "Another time the amazing Danny, a Thai kickboxer who was a foreign student from Thailand was sparring with my kung fu brother, Choi. Danny whipped his kick to Choi's head in a flash. It was Choi's first day in training. Danny turned around and challenged Sifu. Most of us had not expected it to happen so quickly. We couldn't what Sifu did. All we saw and heard was Danny's body slamming into the floor with a strong bang. Sifu explained what he did later. He said he used the throw from Bil Jee form, and he also said grandmaster Sum Neng had used the same throw once in a Hong Kong seminar, except the result was much more dramatic. At the time, a student had raised doubt about Wing Chun's throwing application. He challenged Sifu. As a result, that student landed on his head and passed out. He probably never figured out what hit him."


 

*Another Time Sifu Wong Fights a Wrestlers*


> "Once I witnessed him substituting at a noisy kung fu class for a friend of his in college. At that time he was 19 years old. He picked the biggest volunteer in the class and dropped him in a flash. That was the first time he met wrestling champion (8 times) Mr. Gloss. The whole class of fifty people were shocked. You could hear a pin drop!"


 
The Guy talking has studied Hapkido, Jujitsu, JKD and Karate Here is his full account: http://wingchunkf.com/jkdvswingchun.htm

*This guy who also has some Jujitsu experience said this*: 


> "He told me that practicing the forms alone would not make me understand the priciples and applications of Wing Chun. He also tested my sensitivity with his hands attached to mine. I was not able to sense or block his punches. Even though he had told me in advance where he would try to hit me. He did the same thing to every one I knew. It puzzled that I couldn't do the same thing he did to me. Out of frustration and curiosity, I suggested we go under a freeway for an all out sparring match. Since I was at my prime physical state, ten years older, heavier and bigger than him, I thought I had every bit of an advantage of winning the sparring contest. But in no time I became his punching bag. It went beyond my power and comprehension that he could generate such power and throw me in every direction. All I could see was the sky turning upside down. There was a blackout and from there on I couldn't remember a thing. Afterwards, he explained to me in depth about sensitivity and "yee"...intention and chi, trapping is only the beginning portion of sticky hands in Wing Chun Kung Fu. "


 

I will end here...But Wing Chun has went up against Wrestlers and Ground fighters before and won. Although this guy was a grand master...So alot can be said from that...Mainly alot experience!





stevebjj said:


> Whether the Wing Chun practitioner cross trains in BJJ, or the WC practitioner adapts his/her training to address the threat that BJJ poses, BJJ has made the art and the artist better.
> 
> I'm not sure why, si-je, you have such a chip on your shoulder for BJJ or for those who train and enjoy it. You do, though, so there it is. Getting away from whether or not BJJ is effective, or whether or not anti-grappling works, can you at least admit that BJJ has changed WC? The very fact that anti-grappling has been developed specifically to address the threat that lutadors and other grapplers pose is a testament to the effectiveness of BJJ and other styles of grappling.
> 
> So, addressing the original post, grappling and the threat of being taken to the ground must be tackled by the practitioner (haha... tackled... get it?). If we can agree on that, then it's a matter of discussing what's the best approach. Anti-grappling or actually studying a grappling art.
> 
> I personally believe that the best way to counter a technique is to learn the technique. Anti-grappling, IMO, is a misnomer. It's just grappling. To counter grappling, one must learn to grapple.
> 
> As for what works and what doesn't, my opinion is that it depends upon how one trains. If you train BJJ in a vacuum, never spar or pressure test the techniques, and never move past drills, BJJ would be functionally inneffective. It's not the art. The techniques are sound in BJJ, but only if they're trained effectively. My opinion is that other arts are the same. If you train WC in a vacuum, never pressure test the "anti-grappling" against proficient, competent grapplers, than the techniques have little chance of success. Conversely, if the techniques are pressure tested and trained well, chances of success go up.
> 
> In conclusion, I personally feel that your clear bias for WC over other arts and clear bias against BJJ as inferior to all other arts muddies the waters. Whether or not you admit it, BJJ has changed WC. As I said before, the very fact that "anti-grappling" exists demonstrates the truth of this.
> 
> Edit to add: I have never, and never intend to, mock or make fun of anyone's martial art. I have nothing against WC/WT or any other style as a whole. I get very, very tired of interesting threads devolving into an anti-bjj/mma bickerfest. And trolling isn't disagreeing. There is a big difference.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Your Welcome....



Si-Je said:


> Thank you Yoshi!
> The styles I've taken for the record in order of when I took them, again: Tang Soo Do (3 years), Goshin Ju-Jitsu (3 years), Wu Wai Kung fu (6 months), TaiJi (very little though), Go Ju Ryu Karate (before it merged with Kempo 6months), Kali (6 months) KenJitsu (1 year) Japanese weapons (3 years), and now, Wing Chun (4 years).


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## Yoshiyahu

What are the basic principals of BJJ?




arnisador said:


> Wow, I'm no expert in either BJJ or WC but I have studied both and I think you don't realize the depth and difficulty in BJJ! The subtleties of position and the detailed strategies would appeal to a WC person, I think. It takes much longer to be recognized as an expert in BJJ by one's peers than in WC, in my experience.
> 
> I much preferred WC, but BJJ adds something very useful.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for posting!


----------



## Yoshiyahu

So true it depends on who the fighter is...An Wing Chun was designed to be able to use with in a year and the entire system could be used with in 3 years. But someone said BJJ takes 10 years to be and expert in. So in the mean time that means you can not fight with the BJJ? is that what they ment please clarify someone body any body...But Mystic you said it right any art you use can be devasting to your foe. If you have the Art...


I also agree with you in getting black belt first before you start taking on a new art?

Atleast this way you have proficency in your art and strong foundation that you can mesh a new art with the Wing Chun....


Wing Chun is a great art for inside fighting...Jeet Kune Do is great art for ground fighting and outside fighting. I think the two of those mesh together would work great in the ring!



Mystic Wolf said:


> I have studied other arts and none come to compare to WC/WT, but then again to each there own. One thing I have learned from where I live and being a Marine, it is not the style you fight with but the will to survive. When I fight, I do not fight to win, I fight to hurt. One way or another, I am going take down the person who threatens me or my family and therefore they will think twice before messing with me again.
> 
> So whether it is BJJ, Karate, Street Fighting, or Wing Chun, it is up to the individuale and how much heart they have to survive in a confritation. A peron can be skilled in an art but still have no heart or courage to face there adversary.
> 
> When it comes down to it, I will gouge your eyes, twist your nuts, bite your ears ect..., it is all about survival.


----------



## Si-Je

Beautiful post Yoshi!


----------



## jarrod

Yoshiyahu said:


> So true it depends on who the fighter is...An Wing Chun was designed to be able to use with in a year and the entire system could be used with in 3 years. But someone said BJJ takes 10 years to be and expert in. So in the mean time that means you can not fight with the BJJ? is that what they ment please clarify someone body any body...But Mystic you said it right any art you use can be devasting to your foe. If you have the Art...
> 
> 
> I also agree with you in getting black belt first before you start taking on a new art?
> 
> Atleast this way you have proficency in your art and strong foundation that you can mesh a new art with the Wing Chun....
> 
> 
> Wing Chun is a great art for inside fighting...Jeet Kune Do is great art for ground fighting and outside fighting. I think the two of those mesh together would work great in the ring!


 
black belts mean different things in different arts.  in my style of jujitsu (shingitai) our coach tells us that it's roughly equivelant to graduating high school.  you have a basic education, but you're no professor.  now in bjj it means something different; i'm not a bjj guy so i'll let someone else answer that.  but most bjj people have said that blue belt signifies a general knowledge of the basics.  

so in light of black belts having different meanings, i disagree that you must get a black belt before you branch out.  but i do agree that it is a bad idea to cobble together bits & peices from various styles without really understanding one in any depth.  you have to have a strong base, whatever it is.  

jf


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## Hand Sword

Yoshiyahu said:


> So true it depends on who the fighter is...An Wing Chun was designed to be able to use with in a year and the entire system could be used with in 3 years. But someone said BJJ takes 10 years to be and expert in. So in the mean time that means you can not fight with the BJJ? is that what they ment please clarify someone body any body...But Mystic you said it right any art you use can be devasting to your foe. If you have the Art...
> 
> 
> I also agree with you in getting black belt first before you start taking on a new art?
> 
> Atleast this way you have proficency in your art and strong foundation that you can mesh a new art with the Wing Chun....
> 
> 
> Wing Chun is a great art for inside fighting...Jeet Kune Do is great art for ground fighting and outside fighting. I think the two of those mesh together would work great in the ring!


 

That's because Bruce Lee was a Wng Chun student first. Also, this argument could prove against yours. JKD came about because from fighting, Bruce realised things were lacking or missing--hence the birth of JKD. He was also studying wrestling and grappling, judging from his books and accounts of his friends and training partners.

Not trying to offend or get into it in here. I have neither sufficient expertise in either style, though I've incorporated things from both. I think both sides have made valid arguments, when the personal stuff was left alone. :asian:


----------



## Yoshiyahu

There was a clever reason I mention Jeet Kune Do...You are Correct JKD incorporates the basic principals of Wing Chun, Sensitivity from Wing Chun and Wooden man drills from Wing Chun along with aspects of Sil Lim Tau hidden in two man drills. But Bruce Lee also merged with WC. Kicks from northern shaolin and He also utilizes steps or footwork from boxing and fencing. As well as a couple of punches from boxing. Along with that He also adds Judo. Which he learn from one his co-instructors he selected. He picked up western boxing too. 

But as for the reason why Jun Fan had to fill in the gaps...Was because he didn't have the entire system of Wing Chun. He also had noted birth defect. So many of traditional Horse stance and arrow stance found in Tai Chi he couldn't do. But he successful defeated many people using Wing Chun and his Wu Style Tai Chi....

Error Tai Chi was actually his first style not Wing Chun. He Learn Wing Chun from age 13 to 18. But partially due to mix hertiage through his mother side He didn't get the entire system of Wing Chun. But he was a great fighter. An what he didn't get from Wing Chun He got from the West. He was a fighter...He was only interested in learning the Fighting Aspect of WC...Not so much second form or third form...The JKD system doesn't even have forms...

So Bruce had a leg shorter than other which made his stance work lacking...So incorportated boxing stance for power and fencing steps for fluidity. He had to keep moving because his leg structures. So why not adapt to whats more advantageous to you. In fact all Wing Chun Grandmasters have done this making their Forms and Wing Chun differ from others who came before them...

But Lee's not have the whole system doesn't mean WC was lacking on the contrary...Wing Chun is boxing Art so why add boxing punches an strategy...Simple...Take what works...if I am fighting an MMA guy...i too will switch from Wing Chun to Boxing...to Kick Boxing to Aikido to Judo if I can get the move off....I may even throw in some strikes I learn from Tai Chi and Tiger and Crane. I will use Wing Chun Steps for power and leverage I will use Bagua steps to circle or flank my opponent and I will use Boxing hand strategy and steps as well to confuse my opponent...

I will use the bridge in Wing Chun...i will fight inside...or fight outside like kick boxing...i will use no bridge and give my opponent nothing to feel as well. So it depends...I switch in instant for my best advantage...why stay stactic?

Nothing wrong with Grappling Styles...Wing Chun also has grappling as well as sticky legs...Thats why Chi Sau is teaching you. Grappling and Trapping standing up. 

Ground fighting in WC. Not everyone teaches but its there!



Hand Sword said:


> That's because Bruce Lee was a Wng Chun student first. Also, this argument could prove against yours. JKD came about because from fighting, Bruce realised things were lacking or missing--hence the birth of JKD. He was also studying wrestling and grappling, judging from his books and accounts of his friends and training partners.
> 
> Not trying to offend or get into it in here. I have neither sufficient expertise in either style, though I've incorporated things from both. I think both sides have made valid arguments, when the personal stuff was left alone. :asian:


----------



## Steve

Yoshiyahu said:


> I see some faults in what your saying?
> 
> 
> Wing Chun is already a Mixed Martial Arts...


I guess that depends upon your definition of the term.  Bruce Lee felt that it was necessary to move beyond his WC roots and train in a variety of styles including Greco Roman Wrestling and Judo.





> BJJ is just grappling or wrestling...Ground Fighting is just Wrestling right...Well Ground fighting has existed before Wing Chun did right?


Ground fighting's been around a long time.  True.





> BJJ has existed how long? I think someone said 1993..


Not quite right.  I said that 1993 was a pivotal year for martial arts throughout the world.  That was the year the first UFC was held in which a relatively small guy defeated a multitude of martial artists and street fighters by taking them to the ground.  

BJJ itself has been around since the early 1900's, a very close cousin to Judo and direct descendant to traditional jujutsu from Japan.  As a traditional art, it is as well established as many of the modern styles of Karate, TKD and many other "traditional martial arts."


> Well Wing Chun would have been exposed to ground fighting way before it even came to America...You got Judo,Monkey Fighting,Sanda,JuiJitsu,Aikido, Hapkido and many other Arts.   Ancient WC masters fought and sparred with in the past to prove Wing Chun Works...An many masters defeated those wrestlers...


  Just so I'm clear, are you guessing here? 





> So its not BJJ that has changed Wing Chun...BJJ Fighters have changed their Brazilian Jitjisu according to Wing Chun and Muay Thai.


I think you misunderstood my point.  My point wasn't that BJJ is the ultimate art.  My point was that UFC 1, in 1993, demonstrated that the conventional wisdom of the 20th century to that point, that "I don't need grappling because if a grappler tries to take me to the ground I will [insert deadly technique here]" was shown to be flawed.  Strikers, come to find out, NEED to address grappling.  BJJ (via the Gracie family) just happened to be the style of grappling with the combination of moxy, skill and entrepenurial spirit to organize a venue large enough and with enough visibility to make this clear.  UFC 1 changed martial arts training world wide.  





> Boxing has not changed because of BJJ...BJJ has changed because of boxing.  It is seeking ways to counter these styles. So it has to adapt a standing game to succeed. But Wing Chun already had Grappling with in it...Not all styles deal with Grappling but its in there...


Not sure I follow this one.  Could you explain to me how "anti-grappling" came to be.  Maybe I don't understand the history of it.  





> From the time you grab a leg or arm or hips or thigh...Wing Chun has had ways to advoid or counter those moves. Some Sifu's only teach the kicking and punching aspect...But hidden with in the forms there are all the answers for you. Also if you have a skilled Sifu to go over with you how to apply Wing Chun Techniques on the ground or standing grappling.
> 
> Wing Chun in China has not changed...So BJJ has no impact on Wing Chun...


BJJ or some other style of grappling.  Once again, I'm not alleging that BJJ is the ultimate.  BJJ, Judo, Sambo, or some other style of grappling/ground fighting.  Take your pick.  





> Okay BJJ originates from Judo and Japanese Juijitsu
> 
> Wing Chun actually days back to 1800's. At which time over the years various masters fought all types of fighters including japanese and chinese and Tawianese and Thai. Wing Chun has Take Downs and throws. Wing Chun has anti Chin Na and Grappling.


Once again, maybe I don't understand WC   history, but my impression is that anti grappling is a relatively new discovery/application of WC concepts.


----------



## Steve

Yoshiyahu said:


> What are the basic principals of BJJ?


In 100 words or less?  I'm not sure what you're looking for here.  I'd say one of the fundamental principals of BJJ include positional dominance (ie, "position before submission") with a heirarchy of positions on the ground.  

There is a strong culture of pressure testing techniques and training in what is now commonly referred to as "alive" training, emphasizing three stages of training: introduction, isolation and incorporation.  The incorporation part is trained through open sparring and often in competition.

There is an emphasis on personal ownership of one's training and development, as well as the development of one's personal style.  Everyone is different.  The goal isn't to make my technique exactly like the black belt who's teaching me.  Rather, the result is the goal.  It's not what my armbar looks like.  Instead, it's whether my armbar works.  

We can get further into concepts like base, leverage, dead angles and weight distribution, but I'm not sure that's what you're looking for.  Let me know.  Ultimately, I think the original post was suggesting that these concepts are somewhat universal, and therefore could lend themselves to some crosstraining.





> So true it depends on who the fighter is...An Wing Chun was designed to be able to use with in a year and the entire system could be used with in 3 years. But someone said BJJ takes 10 years to be and expert in. So in the mean time that means you can not fight with the BJJ? is that what they ment please clarify someone body any body...But Mystic you said it right any art you use can be devasting to your foe. If you have the Art...


Once again, I think you're misunderstanding.  BJJ is complex, as is any grappling art (most striking arts, as well).  The point wasn't that BJJ was harder; rather, it's not easy.  

As for the 3 year marker, I'd say that regardless of what style you train, HOW you train will have more to do with how proficient you are after 3 years.  I'd put my money on a 3 year grappler over a 3 year WC'er for skill and proficiency, but again, that would depend upon how the WC'er trains. 

Also, because of how BJJ is taught, the results are remarkably consistent.  Anyone who sticks with it, barring gross physical or mental impairments, will improve.  If you stick with it long enough, training consistently, you will get better.  I'm not a particularly gifted athlete, but I train consistently and get better each month.  Women can do it.  Men of all sizes can do it.  Fat guys and thin.  Bruce Lee would have been great at it, even with a short leg. 


> There was a clever reason I mention Jeet Kune Do...You are Correct JKD incorporates the basic principals of Wing Chun, Sensitivity from Wing Chun and Wooden man drills from Wing Chun along with aspects of Sil Lim Tau hidden in two man drills. But Bruce Lee also merged with WC. Kicks from northern shaolin and He also utilizes steps or footwork from boxing and fencing. As well as a couple of punches from boxing. Along with that He also adds Judo. Which he learn from one his co-instructors he selected. He picked up western boxing too.


So, you're saying that Bruce Lee cross trained because of a birth defect and for no other reason?  I'm not sure where you're headed with that post.


----------



## Steve

jarrod said:


> black belts mean different things in different arts.  in my style of jujitsu (shingitai) our coach tells us that it's roughly equivelant to graduating high school.  you have a basic education, but you're no professor.  now in bjj it means something different; i'm not a bjj guy so i'll let someone else answer that.  but most bjj people have said that blue belt signifies a general knowledge of the basics.
> 
> so in light of black belts having different meanings, i disagree that you must get a black belt before you branch out.  but i do agree that it is a bad idea to cobble together bits & peices from various styles without really understanding one in any depth.  you have to have a strong base, whatever it is.
> 
> jf


I think that's about right.  I put a purple belt in BJJ solidly on par with 1st dan/1st degree black belt in most other styles I'm aware of.  This is based upon what stylists from other arts have described to me here and in other places.  A blue belt is at least equivalent to a brown belt in other styles, having trained on average for between 1 and 2 years.  A purple belt usually takes 3 to 4 years of consistent training.  I'm trying to err solidly on the conservative side, as I've seen some blue belts who are outstanding martial artists.


----------



## jarrod

stevebjj said:


> I think that's about right. I put a purple belt in BJJ solidly on par with 1st dan/1st degree black belt in most other styles I'm aware of. This is based upon what stylists from other arts have described to me here and in other places. A blue belt is at least equivalent to a brown belt in other styles, having trained on average for between 1 and 2 years. A purple belt usually takes 3 to 4 years of consistent training. I'm trying to err solidly on the conservative side, as I've seen some blue belts who are outstanding martial artists.


 
we have to generalize when we talk about ranks in different styles, but my assistant coach (shingitai & judo 1st dan) just got back from vacation where he trained at a bjj school.  based on his experience, that adds up.  he was give & take with the purple belts on the mat.  a black belt in sjj takes about 4-5 years of consistent training to get.  

there is another jjj style i was researching (name escapes me at the moment) but they said it took only about 2 years to get  your black belt.  but you couldn't teach their style until you had your 4th degree black belt.  so once again, rank is a bit relative to the style.

jf


----------



## Hand Sword

Yoshiyahu said:


> There was a clever reason I mention Jeet Kune Do...You are Correct JKD incorporates the basic principals of Wing Chun, Sensitivity from Wing Chun and Wooden man drills from Wing Chun along with aspects of Sil Lim Tau hidden in two man drills. But Bruce Lee also merged with WC. Kicks from northern shaolin and He also utilizes steps or footwork from boxing and fencing. As well as a couple of punches from boxing. Along with that He also adds Judo. Which he learn from one his co-instructors he selected. He picked up western boxing too.
> 
> But as for the reason why Jun Fan had to fill in the gaps...Was because he didn't have the entire system of Wing Chun. He also had noted birth defect. So many of traditional Horse stance and arrow stance found in Tai Chi he couldn't do. But he successful defeated many people using Wing Chun and his Wu Style Tai Chi....
> 
> Error Tai Chi was actually his first style not Wing Chun. He Learn Wing Chun from age 13 to 18. But partially due to mix hertiage through his mother side He didn't get the entire system of Wing Chun. But he was a great fighter. An what he didn't get from Wing Chun He got from the West. He was a fighter...He was only interested in learning the Fighting Aspect of WC...Not so much second form or third form...The JKD system doesn't even have forms...
> 
> So Bruce had a leg shorter than other which made his stance work lacking...So incorportated boxing stance for power and fencing steps for fluidity. He had to keep moving because his leg structures. So why not adapt to whats more advantageous to you. In fact all Wing Chun Grandmasters have done this making their Forms and Wing Chun differ from others who came before them...
> 
> But Lee's not have the whole system doesn't mean WC was lacking on the contrary...Wing Chun is boxing Art so why add boxing punches an strategy...Simple...Take what works...if I am fighting an MMA guy...i too will switch from Wing Chun to Boxing...to Kick Boxing to Aikido to Judo if I can get the move off....I may even throw in some strikes I learn from Tai Chi and Tiger and Crane. I will use Wing Chun Steps for power and leverage I will use Bagua steps to circle or flank my opponent and I will use Boxing hand strategy and steps as well to confuse my opponent...
> 
> I will use the bridge in Wing Chun...i will fight inside...or fight outside like kick boxing...i will use no bridge and give my opponent nothing to feel as well. So it depends...I switch in instant for my best advantage...why stay stactic?
> 
> Nothing wrong with Grappling Styles...Wing Chun also has grappling as well as sticky legs...Thats why Chi Sau is teaching you. Grappling and Trapping standing up.
> 
> Ground fighting in WC. Not everyone teaches but its there!


 

I meant that 1st he did wing chun before the JKD, not first as in overall experience. Also, since he trained WC for years I'm sure he got the system, since you said it takes about 1 to 3. Another thing, anyone who knew him or saw him attested to his outstanding knowledge, capabilities, and skills. 

Bottom line, he felt that he had to change Wing Chun because of lacking areas. Since he did a lot of fighting, and trained harder than anyone (arguably) very few could out measure him on the subject at hand.

The WC had to change. Don't take it personal, ALL OF THE SYSTEMS HAVE CHANGED (as you pointed out, even BJJ) through the years. Why? They lacked something according to the views of the founders. So, now, there's eclectic styles over the TMA's. Don't like them? p God bless, practice yours and enjoy.

As I said I don't want to get into this with you or anyone else.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

I believe it was documented that Jun Fan didn't have the entire system. An also it is documented that he had malformative...Which is why he adopted the footwork of fencing...Really there is no perfect style..you have to comform to that style..Some people have an easier time comforming to another style than others...It depends on you and your body..some people are naturally better kicks others are naturally better boxers...Bruce Lee adopted his style to be able to adapt to western fighters. So he mixed it up...Which is what one should do in fighting anyway..


But the main thing is he had some level of proficency in WC before he learn judo...meaning he learn WC for about five years then later on he picked up a little judo.



Hand Sword said:


> I meant that 1st he did wing chun before the JKD, not first as in overall experience. Also, since he trained WC for years I'm sure he got the system, since you said it takes about 1 to 3. Another thing, anyone who knew him or saw him attested to his outstanding knowledge, capabilities, and skills.
> 
> Bottom line, he felt that he had to change Wing Chun because of lacking areas. Since he did a lot of fighting, and trained harder than anyone (arguably) very few could out measure him on the subject at hand.
> 
> The WC had to change. Don't take it personal, ALL OF THE SYSTEMS HAVE CHANGED (as you pointed out, even BJJ) through the years. Why? They lacked something according to the views of the founders. So, now, there's eclectic styles over the TMA's. Don't like them? p God bless, practice yours and enjoy.
> 
> As I said I don't want to get into this with you or anyone else.


----------



## Hand Sword

Yoshiyahu said:


> I believe it was documented that Jun Fan didn't have the entire system. An also it is documented that he had malformative...Which is why he adopted the footwork of fencing...*Really there is no perfect style..you have to comform to that style.*.Some people have an easier time comforming to another style than others...It depends on you and your body..some people are naturally better kicks others are naturally better boxers...*Bruce Lee adopted his style to be able to adapt to western fighters. So he mixed it up...Which is what one should do in fighting anyway..*
> 
> 
> But the main thing is he had some level of proficency in WC before he learn judo...meaning he learn WC for about five years then later on he picked up a little judo.


 

Do you? Or is the system supposed to serve you? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Your arguing two opposite points here. Conform or adapt? Which is it?

As all of the TMA's have done. Which is the real point of discussion of this particular thread. Again, if you feel that WC doesn't need the "help" that's your view, God Bless, and keep training.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

I am not saying Jun Fan only trained because of birth defect...But that was the reason he realize he was too slow...He needed something to bridge the gap...He was always finding new ways to be better fighter...Nothing wrong with that. Wing Chun is a system...It allows for additions I agree with you...But I am saying once you have proficency in BJJ...then try to develop your WC or Vice Versa...Don't try both at the same time...

It could be rather confusing do both...

But Jun Fan cross train to bridge the gap because he felt he should be able to defeat an opponent alot faster. Actually Chinese Martial Arts have ground fighting. So If Jun Fan had really discovered all of the WC I am sure he would have discovered how to use it against a wrestler with out playing a wrestlers game?

*Stevebjj said:*


> Once again, maybe I don't understand WC history, but my impression is that anti grappling is a relatively new discovery/application of WC concepts.


 
The Term Anti grappling is new English word yes. But Grappling in the Wing Chun System is not a new term...

*Chinese Terms*: http://www.fongswingchun.com/terms.html

*Day ton bok gek* = ground fighting

*Toi dit* = take downs

*Toi dit chi sau* = takedowns in chi sau

*Bak gek* = sparring

*Chi sun* = body sticking

*Kum la* = joint locks


*Chinese Judo or Wrestling*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuai_Jiao

*Wikipedia says*: 





> Shuai Jiao, a wrestling style originating in China, is arguably the most ancient of all Chinese martial arts, with a reported history of over 4,000 years. (The date may be legendary, but wrestling was reportedly used by the Yellow Emperor during his fight against the rebel Chih Yiu and his army in 2697 BC.) During these matches, the combatants reportedly wore horned helmets that they used to gore their opponents while using a primitive form of grappling.


 

*Now Judo and Jiujitsu have been around for awhile. Shunai Jiao existed long before Wing Chun. So when the WC system was devised it had to incorporate every possible scenario in a fight. For many of founding Father's had to make contact with Ground fighters and take down experts in their lifetime. WC has been on the planet too long to not have this experience. Also on the other board concerning BJJ I address in my Lineage some of Wing Chun Sifu's who encountered wrestlers. In fact Sum Nung students was a wrestler. Now Wing Chun doesn't have all the ground techniques. But it has basic self defense and ground removal and escape tactics. It has basic throws. May be not all 300 throws from Judo but it has some. Now Wing Chun doesn't incorporate every kick that is done in China but it has many low kicks. Wing Chun doesn't incorporate every hand strike or punch but it does have some.

*Jujutsu was first developed by Samurai. The Term Jututsu wasn't established until the 17th century. The Japanese have always been in China. So you know Gung Fu men had to have had fights with the Japanese and learn to adapt to their styles of Karate and Judo. So Wing Chun a Newer system would incorporate fighting strategies to combat many styles including ground fighting. 

Now under the Yuen Kay San Lineage there is a sifu named Kwok Wan Ping. 

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/sumnung/history/history_kwokwanping.html







> *wok Wan-Ping* (Guo Yunping) was born in the late 1939. He studied for 4 years at the Guangzhou and Wuhon Sports Institutes and went on to win the All-China lightweight wrestling championship during that time. At the institute, he studied Mongolian, freestyle, and Greco-Roman *wrestling*. He also learned weight lifting, fencing, and other Chinese martial arts.


 

_Oh an then I forgot about Mongolian Wrestling. Yes, I forgot. These are all different schools of fighting the Chinese would have to fight. So in reality. They did have some experience against these arts. Which already made Wing Chun quite diverse before the advent of Brazilian Jujitsu in the 1900's. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolian_wrestling_

* Disclaimer*:_Some Wing Chun Lineages do have Ground Fighting Not all but some. All Wing Chun is not created equal!_

_



			Fut Sao Wing Chun Kuen absolutely contains groundfighting since it's a Shaolin based art. Chin Na is one of it's major components which includes ground work. Being Buddhist in origin many groundfighting techniques are done from a seated or lotus posture. Many body movements and escapes are taught within the seated meditation techniques. www.buddhapalm.com (http://www.buddhapalm.com)
		
Click to expand...

_ 




stevebjj said:


> In 100 words or less? I'm not sure what you're looking for here. I'd say one of the fundamental principals of BJJ include positional dominance (ie, "position before submission") with a heirarchy of positions on the ground.
> 
> There is a strong culture of pressure testing techniques and training in what is now commonly referred to as "alive" training, emphasizing three stages of training: introduction, isolation and incorporation. The incorporation part is trained through open sparring and often in competition.
> 
> There is an emphasis on personal ownership of one's training and development, as well as the development of one's personal style. Everyone is different. The goal isn't to make my technique exactly like the black belt who's teaching me. Rather, the result is the goal. It's not what my armbar looks like. Instead, it's whether my armbar works.
> 
> We can get further into concepts like base, leverage, dead angles and weight distribution, but I'm not sure that's what you're looking for. Let me know. Ultimately, I think the original post was suggesting that these concepts are somewhat universal, and therefore could lend themselves to some crosstraining.Once again, I think you're misunderstanding. BJJ is complex, as is any grappling art (most striking arts, as well). The point wasn't that BJJ was harder; rather, it's not easy.
> 
> As for the 3 year marker, I'd say that regardless of what style you train, HOW you train will have more to do with how proficient you are after 3 years. I'd put my money on a 3 year grappler over a 3 year WC'er for skill and proficiency, but again, that would depend upon how the WC'er trains.
> 
> Also, because of how BJJ is taught, the results are remarkably consistent. Anyone who sticks with it, barring gross physical or mental impairments, will improve. If you stick with it long enough, training consistently, you will get better. I'm not a particularly gifted athlete, but I train consistently and get better each month. Women can do it. Men of all sizes can do it. Fat guys and thin. Bruce Lee would have been great at it, even with a short leg. So, you're saying that Bruce Lee cross trained because of a birth defect and for no other reason? I'm not sure where you're headed with that post.


----------



## dungeonworks

stevebjj said:


> ...Ultimately, I think the original post was suggesting that these concepts are somewhat universal, and therefore could lend themselves to some crosstraining...



That's exactly what I was asking rather than suggesting.  Thanks Steve.


----------



## seasoned

When an art is referred to as complete, it is not considered to contain all aspects of all arts. It is enough to study one art in a life time, let alone 2-3. Any old traditional art, will have aspects of other arts, within its teachings. Okinawan GoJu is a traditional art, as is W/C. I cant speck for W/C, but I can speck of my art, and the parallels that exist. We have hit 135 posts, which would constitute a great thread, except for the numerous warnings. Within these posts each side is defending their chosen art, which makes for great conversation. The broad picture is, old arts had a base that constituted their given art. The smaller picture is these founders, did in fact, cross train and incorporate other techniques, into their art, to make it complete, or in their eyes a complete art. Any complete art will contain four basic categories of fighting techniques, hand striking, kicking, wrestling, and Qin na/ chin na. As arts of survival, born out of lawless times, this is what was needed to defeat someone that was trying to destroy you. As we know, it was at this time kata was also born, so as to preserve all this information, and not lose it. Now as modern day practitioners we are left to decipher these kata. It was said in some posts that we should stay with one art, and build a strong base, before experimenting with other arts. From here I can speck from experience in that I studied Okinawan GoJu for many years, and along the way, made friends from others arts. As we interacted with each other, much like we are doing here at MT, we began to see techniques emerge that were similar to certain moves that we did faithfully in kata, for many, many years, but had no idea what they meant. When I first studied kata, my Sensei didnt mention throws within the kata, why, did he know they were there, or was he holding back, so as not to interfere with the training or learning process. I dont know. But they are there along with much more. This post is long because we are at 136 or so posts, but the constant theme has been the same, whos art is better, or who can defeat who. Bottom line is all arts contain all aspects of defense, it is only when we make a sport out of it, that it becomes other then its intended purpose. Give grapplers some strikes and kicks, and give W/C some grappling, and let the games begin, or do they already have these techniques???


----------



## KamonGuy2

Woah woah! I go away for a couple of days and people are fighting and getting warned by moderators!!

Dudes, we are here to chat. It is great that everyone is so passionate but I think the truth of it is that no matter how good your opinion is, you are never going to win everyone over

I remember a guy who came down to our kwoon who said that he could kick my head faster than I could punch him. He would not accept that he might be wrong. So I said to him please show me. 
Let's just say he was wrong. 

I am always open minded enough and can sympathise with chunners who don't want to do grappling. But please please don't be foolish enough to argue that you will never get taken to the floor. Standing at different sides of a ring/octagon and going at it is different to a bar brawl where it can just explode. 

The Cheung vs Boztepe always comes up in these arguments and for good reason. You have a supposedly seasoned 'grandmaster' of an art that will never go to ground, and in a couple of seconds the 'fight' goes to ground. Yes it was a sham, but displayed very clearly that even the most traditional of wing chun masters needs a ground game

The extension to BJJ is simply that BJJ is a very very good grappling art. It is not perfect, but it uses many concepts that wing chun itself prides itself on. 

All I would say is that go and give BJJ a try, whether it be at a seminar or beginners class, and you will get a very good idea of what we are discussing. 

We are not trying to take something away from wing chun, instead we want to add to it and make it stronger. Don't mix up your arts, but have arts in standby 
Don't fear something new,but understand its principles and use it where it can be used 

Peace out


----------



## Steve

Yoshiyahu said:


> I am not saying Jun Fan only trained because of birth defect...But that was the reason he realize he was too slow...He needed something to bridge the gap...He was always finding new ways to be better fighter...Nothing wrong with that. Wing Chun is a system...It allows for additions I agree with you...But I am saying once you have proficency in BJJ...then try to develop your WC or Vice Versa...Don't try both at the same time...
> 
> It could be rather confusing do both...
> 
> But Jun Fan cross train to bridge the gap because he felt he should be able to defeat an opponent alot faster. Actually Chinese Martial Arts have ground fighting. So If Jun Fan had really discovered all of the WC I am sure he would have discovered how to use it against a wrestler with out playing a wrestlers game?
> 
> *Stevebjj said:*
> 
> The Term Anti grappling is new English word yes. But Grappling in the Wing Chun System is not a new term...
> 
> *Chinese Terms*: http://www.fongswingchun.com/terms.html
> 
> *Day ton bok gek* = ground fighting
> 
> *Toi dit* = take downs
> 
> *Toi dit chi sau* = takedowns in chi sau
> 
> *Bak gek* = sparring
> 
> *Chi sun* = body sticking
> 
> *Kum la* = joint locks
> 
> 
> *Chinese Judo or Wrestling*
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuai_Jiao
> 
> *Wikipedia says*:
> 
> 
> *Now Judo and Jiujitsu have been around for awhile. Shunai Jiao existed long before Wing Chun. So when the WC system was devised it had to incorporate every possible scenario in a fight. For many of founding Father's had to make contact with Ground fighters and take down experts in their lifetime. WC has been on the planet too long to not have this experience. Also on the other board concerning BJJ I address in my Lineage some of Wing Chun Sifu's who encountered wrestlers. In fact Sum Nung students was a wrestler. Now Wing Chun doesn't have all the ground techniques. But it has basic self defense and ground removal and escape tactics. It has basic throws. May be not all 300 throws from Judo but it has some. Now Wing Chun doesn't incorporate every kick that is done in China but it has many low kicks. Wing Chun doesn't incorporate every hand strike or punch but it does have some.
> 
> *Jujutsu was first developed by Samurai. The Term Jututsu wasn't established until the 17th century. The Japanese have always been in China. So you know Gung Fu men had to have had fights with the Japanese and learn to adapt to their styles of Karate and Judo. So Wing Chun a Newer system would incorporate fighting strategies to combat many styles including ground fighting.
> 
> Now under the Yuen Kay San Lineage there is a sifu named Kwok Wan Ping.
> 
> http://www.wingchunkuen.com/sumnung/history/history_kwokwanping.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Oh an then I forgot about Mongolian Wrestling. Yes, I forgot. These are all different schools of fighting the Chinese would have to fight. So in reality. They did have some experience against these arts. Which already made Wing Chun quite diverse before the advent of Brazilian Jujitsu in the 1900's. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolian_wrestling_
> 
> * Disclaimer*:_Some Wing Chun Lineages do have Ground Fighting Not all but some. All Wing Chun is not created equal!_


Thanks, I'm very familiar with Shuai Jiao and Mongolian Wrestling.  It seems to me that For WC to in some way claim to own Shuai Jiao is like Western Boxing to in some way lay claim to Catch as Catch Can.  Once again, I am no expert.  My understanding is that Shuai Jiao is its own discreet martial system having little to nothing to do with WC.  

I also want to be clear that I'm not referring to warriors from bygone eras. I think it's interesting to talk about the roots and origins of fighting styles.  The traditional Japanese roots of BJJ and its journey through South America are interesting to me.  I also enjoy hearing about the history of WC.  I am not sure that I can agree, however, that modern practitioners of any art can claim ownership through osmosis of the practical experience of long dead masters.  What I mean is, if YOU want to effectively defend yourself aginst a ground fighter, YOU have to gain personal experience with ACTUAL groundfighters. 

if you train the techniques as Emin demonstrates in his video, against unrealistic techniques, you'll be very sad when/if you ever see an actual guard pass.


----------



## Steve

dungeonworks said:


> That's exactly what I was asking rather than suggesting.  Thanks Steve.


    As with all things, I think that this is a matter of focus and bias.  Do you focus on what's different or the same?  I think that if we look, there is likely much in common.


----------



## Si-Je

Well, what approaches to ground fighting and concepts of BJJ is similar to Wing Chun principles and concepts in defense?  This is where I'm unclear on how they would be similar to one another.  
I can see maybe that when a grappler shoots in this could be akin to the WC/WT addage of "shortest distance between two points" in that a grappler comes straight into attack an opponent's foundation in a takedown.
But, once your there how would BJJ be close to WC/WT concept in the actual take down?
i.e. is shooting into the legs or hips head first the most effecient and the most minimal use of brute strength to execute a takedown?
How would you apply WC/WT concept to achieve maximum effeciency in this common and popular technique of BJJ?  And wouldn't you expose yourself to being kicked, kneed or be setup to expose your neck and head to being punched, kicked, etc.?  Is this technique allowing you to protect your centerline, or keep your centerline on your oponent so you have all your "weapons" at your quick and easy disposal to adapt, respond, and defend against the opponent's counter, parry, or defense?
These are things I think of when thinking of adding BJJ technique to a Wing Chun base of understanding.  I'm just not quite seeing how the two would be remotely similar on many levels, and see many conflicts in applying principles of WC/WT while trying to execute BJJ technique.
Plus, like I said, there is a whole range of techniques covered in WC/WT in this very range.  I'd just be sad to see those techniques miminized and forgotten because one would replace it with BJJ.
Also, I don't think anyone is saying that a WC/WT person could never be taken to the ground, or that we train with the mindset that that would never happen.  I think just about every WC/WT practitioner is aware of that possibility and we generally train to avoid the takedown, be as rooted as possible, while staying relaxed so if the takedown does come we can adapt and respond properly to the energy and inertia of the opponent as quickly as possible.  Just because it's not the desire or goal of a WC/WT practitioner to go to the ground on purpose or as a first line of defense, or that we wish to get off the ground asap, doesn't mean WC/WT concepts and theory doesn't cover these situations.  
What my Sifu and I have seen is that many  WC/WT schools that even teach ground fighting only do so much later in a students training (i.e. 2-3 years later)  This is something my teacher has decided to change, and start basic training in anti-grappling in Grade 1 to match what the student is learning standing with same same technique on the ground.  This so the student has at least a basic knowledge to defend against this form of popular attack in the beginning to help them feel more secure and well rounded.


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## seasoned

stevebjj said:


> As with all things, I think that this is a matter of focus and bias. Do you focus on what's different or the same? I think that if we look, there is likely much in common.


 
Yea, self defense. W/C wants to get the grapplers off the ground, and the grapplers went to get the W/C on the ground.*J* Bottom line is, all I care about, is the everyday joe, that decides he doesnt like the economy, and feels he wants to take what I have away from me. God bless him, may the better person win. :wink1:


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## Steve

Si-Je said:


> Well, what approaches to ground fighting and concepts of BJJ is similar to Wing Chun principles and concepts in defense?  This is where I'm unclear on how they would be similar to one another.
> I can see maybe that when a grappler shoots in this could be akin to the WC/WT addage of "shortest distance between two points" in that a grappler comes straight into attack an opponent's foundation in a takedown.
> But, once your there how would BJJ be close to WC/WT concept in the actual take down?
> i.e. is shooting into the legs or hips head first the most effecient and the most minimal use of brute strength to execute a takedown?
> How would you apply WC/WT concept to achieve maximum effeciency in this common and popular technique of BJJ?  And wouldn't you expose yourself to being kicked, kneed or be setup to expose your neck and head to being punched, kicked, etc.?  Is this technique allowing you to protect your centerline, or keep your centerline on your oponent so you have all your "weapons" at your quick and easy disposal to adapt, respond, and defend against the opponent's counter, parry, or defense?
> These are things I think of when thinking of adding BJJ technique to a Wing Chun base of understanding.  I'm just not quite seeing how the two would be remotely similar on many levels, and see many conflicts in applying principles of WC/WT while trying to execute BJJ technique.
> Plus, like I said, there is a whole range of techniques covered in WC/WT in this very range.  I'd just be sad to see those techniques miminized and forgotten because one would replace it with BJJ.
> Also, I don't think anyone is saying that a WC/WT person could never be taken to the ground, or that we train with the mindset that that would never happen.  I think just about every WC/WT practitioner is aware of that possibility and we generally train to avoid the takedown, be as rooted as possible, while staying relaxed so if the takedown does come we can adapt and respond properly to the energy and inertia of the opponent as quickly as possible.  Just because it's not the desire or goal of a WC/WT practitioner to go to the ground on purpose or as a first line of defense, or that we wish to get off the ground asap, doesn't mean WC/WT concepts and theory doesn't cover these situations.
> What my Sifu and I have seen is that many  WC/WT schools that even teach ground fighting only do so much later in a students training (i.e. 2-3 years later)  This is something my teacher has decided to change, and start basic training in anti-grappling in Grade 1 to match what the student is learning standing with same same technique on the ground.  This so the student has at least a basic knowledge to defend against this form of popular attack in the beginning to help them feel more secure and well rounded.


For what it's worth, I think you're fixating on one technique, a takedown that is more a part of wrestling than BJJ.  BJJ focuses primarily on what happens AFTER the fight goes to the ground.  The takedown is incidental.  The takedowns I train are largely Judo and Wrestling takedowns, and not to the degree or with the expertise they have.  I'm happy to discuss them as I can, but 90% of what I train is ground fighting... what happens when either you or I or both of us are no longer standing up.

Once on the ground, BJJ takes advantage of leverage over strength and size, and stacking the deck as much as possible.  Being relaxed, working lockflow and using the opponent's strength and size against them, letting them do as much of the work as possible, is good jiu-jitsu.  There are different styles employed, based upon body type.  I tend to work a slow, relaxed and controlled game in which I strive to continuously improve position based upon what my opponent does.  Others work a more dynamic style.  I'm boring to watch, but then, I'm 38.  I'd rather let the 20 year old guys move at 90 MPH.

I also don't recall anyone suggesting that any techniques be abandoned or forgotten.  I think the idea is whether or not BJJ could be integrated to improve upon, add to or complement the techniques in WC.   And again, I don't know enough about WC to be able to say, but I don't see why not.  Based upon the video you posted, I think it could at the very least help refine the techniques being taught by providing more realistic techniques to drill against.  As I said before, the techniques Emin demonstrated were counter to fundamentally flawed, sloppy technique.  This doesn't mean that the moves and concepts Emin demonstrated are good or bad.  Just that it's impossible to know from that video because the context in which they are demonstrated was unrealistic fiction.


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## Si-Je

I looked back on that post and wasn't too clear on the fact I use the shooting in type of takedown as an example only.  How is this condusive to Wing Chun theory, concept and application?  

As for what happens once on the ground with BJJ, this I believe would be where the glaring difference in applicaiton and approach would become known from BJJ to Wing Chun.  as a very generalized example:

BJJ's intention is to stay on the ground, gain control over opponent with submission or breaking joint, choke, etc..
WC/WT would be more along the lines of escaping the joint lock, choke, submission, etc. and appling WC/WT deflection and striking asap as the practitioner gets off the ground quickly.
Two totally different trains of thought in combat with dealing with a ground fighting situation.

So, how would one use WC/WT concepts to apply BJJ technique?  This is the question, no? How would BJJ enhance one's WC/WT defense to make the practitioner more "well rounded of a fighter?"  How does BJJ techniques fit and mesh in with WC/WT concepts and fighting approach in application?  (to get back to the origional purpose of the thread, and I apologize dungeonworks for deviated so far from it.  I understand now how frustrating that is)  

Now, my Sifu and I have done this to some extent at a BJJ seminar a couple of years back.
as ex.
Our student with one arm attended the seminar and we had to augment the techniques to fit his needs.  And in so doing, we inadvertanly applied WC/WT concepts into the BJJ techniques at the seminar. (as respectfully as possible given the situation and needs of our student.)

One technique I'll focus on because it gets really involved to write this up and for others to read it.

1. BJJ armbar on the ground where opponent is on their back and you place your legs across their chest and waist to take both your hands to grab their arm and lock out an armbar with their arm between your legs.
   a.  our student only had one arm so this was very difficult for him to secure the opponents arm.
2. what we had him do by augmenting the armbar:
   a. we had him get closer to partner, still getting into position with his legs pinning him from rolling over across his partners chest and placing the arm between his legs in BJJ fashion, was the same.
    b.  instead of using two hands/arms to grab the trapped arm in the traditional fashion, we had our student wrap the partners arm in a tan sau fashion, tucking the partners hand/wrist under his armpit with the arm he did have.  Keeping palm up in tan sau position with arm wrapped and clamped under his armpit and side of his body.  
   c.  This did give the partner room to bend his elbow and put the one armed student in a half crunch position.  But, in this position with the tan sau changed the nature of the armbar into a very nasty arm lock.  The trapped arm being slightly bent allowed our student to apply a twisting/torking effect on the elbow and shoulder of the opponent in a very painful and devastating fashion.
   d. Now a person doing this same techniuqe would still have one hand free to punch and deflect.  (holding more true to WC/WT theory and concepts of fighting.)  And give the applicant more ability to adapt to the opponent's changing of position.
  c.  From this "half-crunch" position with the arm locked with the tan sau, we had the student perform a situp motion while moving the tan sau forward as he got up from the ground, pointing the tan sau toward the opponent's head/centerline as he got up.  (we had to do this very slow and allow his partner to be released for him to get up completely, although he still had control of the arm as he got up) As he got up his knees planted to the partners ribs/stomach, and neck.  He used the opponent to "help" him get up so to speak.  
This movement in completion, done as one continous and flowing motion will break the elbow and dislocate the shoulder as you get up with knees digging into injured opponent.
(Man, I wish so that we had video of this!  Remind me and I'll see if we can simulate it in video this weekend.)

Now, this is what I would think of when asked to apply WC/WT concepts to something like BJJ.  But, I would have never in my life done it if it wasn't for our one armed student participating in a BJJ seminar with us.  And really the point being from this experiment is that the technique completely stopped being almost anything akin to BJJ.  Since he could not execute the technique at all, Sifu ended up making up technique on the fly using WC/WT concepts to make the BJJ technique workable for the student.  
And honestly, if anything, it was far closer to the Goshin Ju-Jitsu technique I used to do.  (only difference is we didn't put our legs on the person and lay on our back, we dug the knees into their ribs and neck, having them laying on their side.  Sitting in a crouch position on the opponent, and put both hands in a "prayer" postition and twisted the elbow and shoulder in the same "tan sau" fashion.)
All this brought alot of attention to the three of us, and the teacher came to ask questions and was very interested in what we were doing.  It was alot of fun, and we all learned alot, but this isn't something I would do much since straight WC/WT covers this.  I found that out that day and never knew (I'd been studing for 2 years at that point) still thinking I'd have to supplement my WC/WT with my JJJ.  Those thoughts ended in that seminar.
Ack! sorry so long.  This is really difficult to describe play by play in text.  And is why I use only this type of BJJ armbar as example, simply because I'm more familiar with that technique from BJJ and can explain it best in text.  I hope this helps.


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## MJS

Si-Je said:


> MJS you seem to be very agitated, this is why I apologized for coming off so strong and hard. But, sense my apology is not being accepted I will just have to continue and try to be more diplomatic.


 
Nope, not agitated at all. 




> Although with this very topic that is very hard for me and I'll tell you why.
> This is a topic started to promote the idea that Wing Chun needs BJJ and that it would help a Wing Chun practitioner.
> I find this horribly false, and that it infringes on my art. To say that a Wing Chun practitioner needs another art to make it well balanced to me is insulting to my art. Especially BJJ of all styles.
> I don't like BJJ because it is not a good art. This is my opinion. That it is not a good art for one that trains MA with the goal of realistic self defense mainly Wing Chun.
> I feel that BJJ would lessen and diminish the art of Wing Chun, keeping people from continuing to further their understanding and training in the advanced concepts and techniques of Wing Chun. I.e. - instead of learning to kick and hit an opponent from a "grappling" distance, people would resort to BJJ. Thus, losing that range of WT/WC possibly forever. This does anger me, and I don't want people to waterdown their WC/WT to suit students that just don't want to fully train the art.


 
Question for you.  If I, or someone else, suggested Judo or Sambo instead of BJJ, would you like those arts more?  Or would you still dislike them?  Keep in mind, that while we always try to dictate how things go, there are times when that may not always work.  For myself, I like to train in all of the fight ranges....punching, kicking, the clinch and the ground.  When you land on the ground, you need to be able to adapt, due to the fact that your standup material may not always work.



> As for my husband and his experiences. I've shared some of them here to help support and give examples to what I've been saying. And yes, he's the best Wing Chun practitioner I've ever met, my teacher, my friend, and my husband. If you have a problem with that, then that has nothing to do with me. That's all you.


 
Seriously, I don't have a problem with that.  IMO though, it seems you're a bit blinded to other things, but oh well.



> He is training for cage fights, this takes time and we're not going to rush his training to prove anything to you. This costs money that we have to plan, save, and be careful when we spend it, and we're not going to put our family through finiancial hardship just to speed things up for you or anyone.
> When his conditioning is up, when his training is done, when we have the money to register him, and when we get a fight scheduled (a real one, from a real promoter that isn't going to jerk us around) then you shall have your beloved video.


 
I'll be waiting. 



> Again, I'm not in a rush because I know it won't matter to the nay sayers. You'll all have the excuses you need, ex. he didn't fight anyone any GOOD, the guy he happened to get on a fight card with wasn't actually a Gracie BJJ guy, hubbie's too big and strong for the guy in the cage against, whatever. I'm sure they'll be more I can't even think of. But, you'll have you video.


 
IIRC, people have said that the guys Royce fought in the UFC were hand picked by his brother, to make him look good.  I'm simply saying that with all your talk about the mighty WC, I just hope that the grappler that your hubby fights, is good.  



> I'm sorry if I thought we had that last fight, but it's out of my control if the promoter is a scumbag. The only thing we can do is move on and find someone else. I don't know alot about this industry and have had a bit of a hard time finding out the information I needed for our area, hey, I'm new to this.
> 
> But, we're NOT new to WT/WC and we're NOT new to defending against BJJ.
> So, again, I find that I may have come off strong again, but am finding that maybe I'm just strong in my conviction of the value of my art. So be it.


 
Hey, I'm strong about Kenpo as well, but I am not so blinded to the faults.


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## MJS

Si-Je said:


> Trolling is not my intention. Speaking honestly and being forthright about my true thoughs on these threads is. If people cannot handle being disagreed with is that 'trolling'?
> Sometimes you cannot be as diplomatic as you'd like when discussing topics such as this. That doesn't mean I'm wanting to be hurtful and rude to people. But, many comments made directed exactly at me and my husband have not been made with diplomacy either. So, basically, your saying that others can trash my ideas, statements, misquote me, and make fun of my art, husband and self and I'm not allowed to make a comment or stand up for myself and my art?
> I see.
> It's okay for others to make fun of Wing Chun, and talk down about it and it's teachers, it's practicality and such but it's not okay for me to disagree or dispute?
> I do think alot of people need somone to stop being so meek and tiptoing around these issues and be real to change their thinking or give them another way to percieve things.
> It is not my intention to "troll". In my opinion I see other "trolls" than myself, but have chosen to let it slide.


 
Disagreeing ones points is one thing.  A troll is defined as someone who comes to a forum with the sole intention of causing problems.  Feel free though, to report any posts that seem to be in violation of the forum rules.  The mods will review them and take any action necessary.


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## MJS

Yoshiyahu said:


> I read your statement...you just validated what I said...You said you never say you kicked the **** of everyone you sparred. Thats something others say....
> 
> Well she is not saying she never been taking down or beat everyone she sparred...She is saying that her husband is the greatest...She falls under the other say those things not me...Her Husband never came on her bragging how he defeat all of us on here...
> 
> She thinks the greatest about her husband...She should...As should your wives...But to tell her not to think highly of her husband is just absord...Thats her man...
> 
> 
> Of course she thinks there no one better its her husband...Give her a break in that respect.


 
Of course, if you reall read my post, you'd notice that I mentioned no specific person.  Does her husband need her for a spokesperson?  Come on its like the BJJ nutriders who worship the ground that Royce walks on.  Same thing here.  You have guys who think that BJJ, Royce and every other Gracie is the bomb, the best thing ever.  So thats what we have here....someone so starry eyed, running around saying WC is the best, that her husband is a badass, etc.  

As for my wife...no she does not run around and hype up Kenpo, Arnis or BJJ.  She does not tell people that I'm Superman.  Last time I checked, the martial arts didn't turn people into unbeatable fighting machines.  Boxers get beat, MMA guys get beat, anyone is capable of getting beat.

Its all in the wording.  I'm sorry if you can't see it.


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## Steve

Typing from a phone so this will be short.  First, it's interesting that you bring up one arm. My introduction to grappling was from a guy whose left arm was completely paralyzed.  He had it, but it just kind of flopped around.  He did just fine.  As we all do, he found a way to adapt solid technique to his unique set of skills and abilities.  

Regarding the rest, I'll wait until I have the chance to read this more carefully.  My first impression is just to remind you that in BJJ there are lots of "right" ways to peform a technique.   It's a very practical, pragmatic art.  For example, a correctly applied armbar from the top is one in which the hips are in tight, used as the fulcrum, and the strength of the body is focused against the much weaker strength of the opponent's arm.  Thumb up to ensure the proper angle against the joint.  Knees locked together, and heels pulled back to prevent escape.  The finish is somewhat static, but the rest is very fluid.


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## Si-Je

MJS said:


> Of course, if you reall read my post, you'd notice that I mentioned no specific person. Does her husband need her for a spokesperson? Come on its like the BJJ nutriders who worship the ground that Royce walks on. Same thing here. You have guys who think that BJJ, Royce and every other Gracie is the bomb, the best thing ever. So thats what we have here....someone so starry eyed, running around saying WC is the best, that her husband is a badass, etc.
> 
> As for my wife...no she does not run around and hype up Kenpo, Arnis or BJJ. She does not tell people that I'm Superman. Last time I checked, the martial arts didn't turn people into unbeatable fighting machines. Boxers get beat, MMA guys get beat, anyone is capable of getting beat.
> 
> Its all in the wording. I'm sorry if you can't see it.


 
Okay that's enough.  I'm getting tired of this disrespect to me and my husband.  I will amend my wording for all who may be confused.
I refer to my husband's experience in posts because he IS my Sifu.  I give examples of what he has done as anyone here has described the exploits and exerience of their Sifu's.  

A question, does your wife teach these styles with you?  Is she your student as well?  Are you partners in promotion for a school that you are running?  
This is a diffent kind of relationship I have with my husband and it is dual.  He's my teacher and I love him as a teacher and as my husband.  If some have a problem with that relationship then it is their own affair.  

My SIFU has competed in San Shou and is 7-1 (I've posted this a couple of times.  Does this denote that I've claimed he is "undefeated?"  I would think not.), he's competed in TaiJi Legacy in continous sparring and has NOT lost in that category.  My SIFU has competed in numerous Karate tournaments in continious sparring and has NOT lost those competitions once.  My SIFU has a very good track record of competing with 100% WC/WT in these competitions and is going to add the cage to that list.
My SIFU is a 4th degree MCMAP instructor for the USMC and has used his WT training many times in combat.  My SIFU was one of the major instructors that helped to design MCMAP into the art it is today.  My SIFU has black belt ranking in Judo, Kempo Karate, and Kendo.  
My SIFU has trained under two masters reaching Level 5 technician under BOTH in Wing Chun and Wing Tsun.  My SIFU knows the COMPLETE system of both WC and WT.  My SIFU knows butterfly swords, dragon pole, mook jong, escrima, anti-grappling, knife fighting and defense (from USMC) whereas some SIFU's and stylists do not know the entire system of WC/WT.
I am pround of my SIFU, that is why I am his student in the first place, reguardless of the fact that he's my husband as well.  If his art was worthless, I'd train elsewhere.
I came on here oringionally and didn't name him as my SIFU only to keep from being presumptous in reguards to his official ranking.  He is unaffiliated with any master and has not been "awarded" the title of Sifu, so I did not want to refer to him as a Sifu until we could establish the officiality of that title.  But, as it seems, me referring to him as "hubbie" has diminished and disrespected his skill, knowledge, and qualifications as a teacher I will then promote him to status of "Sifu" as a student who seeks his knowledge.  Thus, I don't have to speak for my SIFU and if I do, then he knows about what I say and stands by it as my husband as well.  I don't post things on here he doesn't agree with or things he doesn't teach me.  As well as being him being my Sifu, husband, and I his assistant teacher, I have been his business partner in every aspect of running the school, teaching, marketing, and finance.  
If this doesn't clarify the relationship I have with my SIFU and husband more, then I feel it's a total lost cause.  But, being insulting and condecending to me, my sifu and husband is not necessary or admirable.

On a side note: He has gotten wind of a "challenge match" from a 5+ year BJJ stylist possibly coming to our humble recreation center tomorrow.  This we hope will actually happen (as often they never show when it comes down to it, just talk) and I will definately get video for you all, which is why I profess his 'awesomeness' in the hopes of such a thing happening.  If only because so many people demand video proof and one' word isn't enough.  
He's waited 4 years (since I've know him) for such an opportunity to be able to be made public.
By the way, does anyone know where I might find a template on designing a waiver of responsibility if one is hurt in sparring, at class, or in a "challenge match"?


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## MJS

Si-Je said:


> Well, what approaches to ground fighting and concepts of BJJ is similar to Wing Chun principles and concepts in defense? This is where I'm unclear on how they would be similar to one another.
> I can see maybe that when a grappler shoots in this could be akin to the WC/WT addage of "shortest distance between two points" in that a grappler comes straight into attack an opponent's foundation in a takedown.
> But, once your there how would BJJ be close to WC/WT concept in the actual take down?
> i.e. is shooting into the legs or hips head first the most effecient and the most minimal use of brute strength to execute a takedown?
> How would you apply WC/WT concept to achieve maximum effeciency in this common and popular technique of BJJ? And wouldn't you expose yourself to being kicked, kneed or be setup to expose your neck and head to being punched, kicked, etc.? Is this technique allowing you to protect your centerline, or keep your centerline on your oponent so you have all your "weapons" at your quick and easy disposal to adapt, respond, and defend against the opponent's counter, parry, or defense?
> These are things I think of when thinking of adding BJJ technique to a Wing Chun base of understanding. I'm just not quite seeing how the two would be remotely similar on many levels, and see many conflicts in applying principles of WC/WT while trying to execute BJJ technique.
> Plus, like I said, there is a whole range of techniques covered in WC/WT in this very range. I'd just be sad to see those techniques miminized and forgotten because one would replace it with BJJ.
> Also, I don't think anyone is saying that a WC/WT person could never be taken to the ground, or that we train with the mindset that that would never happen. I think just about every WC/WT practitioner is aware of that possibility and we generally train to avoid the takedown, be as rooted as possible, while staying relaxed so if the takedown does come we can adapt and respond properly to the energy and inertia of the opponent as quickly as possible. Just because it's not the desire or goal of a WC/WT practitioner to go to the ground on purpose or as a first line of defense, or that we wish to get off the ground asap, doesn't mean WC/WT concepts and theory doesn't cover these situations.
> What my Sifu and I have seen is that many WC/WT schools that even teach ground fighting only do so much later in a students training (i.e. 2-3 years later) This is something my teacher has decided to change, and start basic training in anti-grappling in Grade 1 to match what the student is learning standing with same same technique on the ground. This so the student has at least a basic knowledge to defend against this form of popular attack in the beginning to help them feel more secure and well rounded.


 
Let me see if I can help with this.  I'll use myself as an example, but I'll try to follow along with what you're asking about WC.

When the fight is still in the punching and kicking range, I use my Kenpo.  Once a grab, such as a bearhug happens or a shoot happens, I still do my best to use the Kenpo concepts, as I said in another post, but I do click into BJJ mode.  Now, lets assume that I was not quick enough in my defense, and I land on the ground.  The grappler is now either going to get in my guard, try to mount or sidemount me.  Can I use some Kenpo?  Sure, but I will be limited as to what I can do, for a number of reasons, the main one being that I'm now on the ground and probably won't have the same movement, if I were standing.  

However, I can defend myself with the BJJ training.  I'm not going to spend long periods of time looking for a submission, instead, I'm going to look for an escape or a position that is better for me.  Of course, if the sub. presents itself, I'll take it. 

Once I get to a better position, I can continue to fight from the ground or stand up or better yet, try to get the hell out of there. 

Also keep in mind, that if we look back to the early UFCs, we'll see strikers trying hard to counter the shoot or clinch, however, we see them get taken down anyways.  Watch a few clips of Royce.  You'll notice him doing what seems like a front kick.  This is not meant to have any serious effect on the person, instead he's using it to guage his distance.  Watch the reaction of the other person.  They usually are moving back, trying to avoid this kick.  However, by that time, its usually too late, the grappler clinches, and is pulled down.  Here are some examples:





 




 
I will say again, as I've said many times in the past...I feel that all arts have something to offer.  I dont think that someone should drop their base art and take up the flavor of the month.  I'm simply saying that arts that specialize in something, should be looked at.  If someone does WC, and they understand how a grappler is going to take them down, then they can make their WC defense that much better, just like I do with my Kenpo.


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## MJS

Si-Je said:


> Okay that's enough. I'm getting tired of this disrespect to me and my husband.


 
Of course, the same could be said about your hatefest for BJJ.  




> I will amend my wording for all who may be confused.
> I refer to my husband's experience in posts because he IS my Sifu. I give examples of what he has done as anyone here has described the exploits and exerience of their Sifu's.


 
Ok.



> A question, does your wife teach these styles with you? Is she your student as well? Are you partners in promotion for a school that you are running?
> This is a diffent kind of relationship I have with my husband and it is dual. He's my teacher and I love him as a teacher and as my husband. If some have a problem with that relationship then it is their own affair.


 
No, my wife does not train.  She does support me with whatever training I do though.  She knew, when we first met, that the arts were something I had been doing for a long time, long before she came into the picture.  She supports that, accepts that, and does not prevent me from training.  



> My SIFU has competed in San Shou and is 7-1 (I've posted this a couple of times. Does this denote that I've claimed he is "undefeated?" I would think not.), he's competed in TaiJi Legacy in continous sparring and has NOT lost in that category. My SIFU has competed in numerous Karate tournaments in continious sparring and has NOT lost those competitions once. My SIFU has a very good track record of competing with 100% WC/WT in these competitions and is going to add the cage to that list.
> My SIFU is a 4th degree MCMAP instructor for the USMC and has used his WT training many times in combat. My SIFU was one of the major instructors that helped to design MCMAP into the art it is today. My SIFU has black belt ranking in Judo, Kempo Karate, and Kendo.
> My SIFU has trained under two masters reaching Level 5 technician under BOTH in Wing Chun and Wing Tsun. My SIFU knows the COMPLETE system of both WC and WT. My SIFU knows butterfly swords, dragon pole, mook jong, escrima, anti-grappling, knife fighting and defense (from USMC) whereas some SIFU's and stylists do not know the entire system of WC/WT.
> I am pround of my SIFU, that is why I am his student in the first place, reguardless of the fact that he's my husband as well. If his art was worthless, I'd train elsewhere.
> I came on here oringionally and didn't name him as my SIFU only to keep from being presumptous in reguards to his official ranking. He is unaffiliated with any master and has not been "awarded" the title of Sifu, so I did not want to refer to him as a Sifu until we could establish the officiality of that title. But, as it seems, me referring to him as "hubbie" has diminished and disrespected his skill, knowledge, and qualifications as a teacher I will then promote him to status of "Sifu" as a student who seeks his knowledge. Thus, I don't have to speak for my SIFU and if I do, then he knows about what I say and stands by it as my husband as well. I don't post things on here he doesn't agree with or things he doesn't teach me. As well as being him being my Sifu, husband, and I his assistant teacher, I have been his business partner in every aspect of running the school, teaching, marketing, and finance.
> If this doesn't clarify the relationship I have with my SIFU and husband more, then I feel it's a total lost cause. But, being insulting and condecending to me, my sifu and husband is not necessary or admirable.


 
Ok.



> On a side note: He has gotten wind of a "challenge match" from a 5+ year BJJ stylist possibly coming to our humble recreation center tomorrow. This we hope will actually happen (as often they never show when it comes down to it, just talk) and I will definately get video for you all, which is why I profess his 'awesomeness' in the hopes of such a thing happening. If only because so many people demand video proof and one' word isn't enough.
> He's waited 4 years (since I've know him) for such an opportunity to be able to be made public.
> By the way, does anyone know where I might find a template on designing a waiver of responsibility if one is hurt in sparring, at class, or in a "challenge match"?


 
Ok.  Hopefully this'll happen and yes, I'm sure many would love to see video of it.


----------



## Si-Je

MJS said:


> Of course, the same could be said about your hatefest for BJJ.


 
BJJ is a style not a human being.  We are done.  Conversation is closed.  I've made myself very clear, and any further discussion is fruitless and designed only to condesend and be disrespectful.  Good day


----------



## MJS

Si-Je said:


> BJJ is a style not a human being. We are done. Conversation is closed. I've made myself very clear, and any further discussion is fruitless and designed only to condesend and be disrespectful. Good day


 
You're right, it is an art, not a person.  However, there are people, such as myself and Steve, who train in it, so in a way, you are taking a shot at the art and anyone who trains in it.


----------



## Si-Je

MJS said:


> You're right, it is an art, not a person. However, there are people, such as myself and Steve, who train in it, so in a way, you are taking a shot at the art and anyone who trains in it.


 
To quote my last post on translating WC/WT principles to BJJ and what happens when that is done.

One technique I'll focus on because it gets really involved to write this up and for others to read it.

1. BJJ armbar on the ground where opponent is on their back and you place your legs across their chest and waist to take both your hands to grab their arm and lock out an armbar with their arm between your legs.
a. our student only had one arm so this was very difficult for him to secure the opponents arm.
2. what we had him do by augmenting the armbar:
a. we had him get closer to partner, still getting into position with his legs pinning him from rolling over across his partners chest and placing the arm between his legs in BJJ fashion, was the same.
b. instead of using two hands/arms to grab the trapped arm in the traditional fashion, we had our student wrap the partners arm in a tan sau fashion, tucking the partners hand/wrist under his armpit with the arm he did have. Keeping palm up in tan sau position with arm wrapped and clamped under his armpit and side of his body. 
c. This did give the partner room to bend his elbow and put the one armed student in a half crunch position. But, in this position with the tan sau changed the nature of the armbar into a very nasty arm lock. The trapped arm being slightly bent allowed our student to apply a twisting/torking effect on the elbow and shoulder of the opponent in a very painful and devastating fashion.
d. Now a person doing this same techniuqe would still have one hand free to punch and deflect. (holding more true to WC/WT theory and concepts of fighting.) And give the applicant more ability to adapt to the opponent's changing of position.
c. From this "half-crunch" position with the arm locked with the tan sau, we had the student perform a situp motion while moving the tan sau forward as he got up from the ground, pointing the tan sau toward the opponent's head/centerline as he got up. (we had to do this very slow and allow his partner to be released for him to get up completely, although he still had control of the arm as he got up) As he got up his knees planted to the partners ribs/stomach, and neck. He used the opponent to "help" him get up so to speak. 
This movement in completion, done as one continous and flowing motion will break the elbow and dislocate the shoulder as you get up with knees digging into injured opponent.
(Man, I wish so that we had video of this! Remind me and I'll see if we can simulate it in video this weekend.)

Now, this is what I would think of when asked to apply WC/WT concepts to something like BJJ. But, I would have never in my life done it if it wasn't for our one armed student participating in a BJJ seminar with us. And really the point being from this experiment is that the technique completely stopped being almost anything akin to BJJ. Since he could not execute the technique at all, Sifu ended up making up technique on the fly using WC/WT concepts to make the BJJ technique workable for the student. 
And honestly, if anything, it was far closer to the Goshin Ju-Jitsu technique I used to do. (only difference is we didn't put our legs on the person and lay on our back, we dug the knees into their ribs and neck, having them laying on their side. Sitting in a crouch position on the opponent, and put both hands in a "prayer" postition and twisted the elbow and shoulder in the same "tan sau" fashion.)
All this brought alot of attention to the three of us, and the teacher came to ask questions and was very interested in what we were doing. It was alot of fun, and we all learned alot, but this isn't something I would do much since straight WC/WT covers this. I found that out that day and never knew (I'd been studing for 2 years at that point) still thinking I'd have to supplement my WC/WT with my JJJ. Those thoughts ended in that seminar.
Ack! sorry so long. This is really difficult to describe play by play in text. And is why I use only this type of BJJ armbar as example, simply because I'm more familiar with that technique from BJJ and can explain it best in text. I hope this helps.


----------



## seasoned

MJS said:


> Let me see if I can help with this. I'll use myself as an example, but I'll try to follow along with what you're asking about WC.
> 
> When the fight is still in the punching and kicking range, I use my Kenpo. Once a grab, such as a bearhug happens or a shoot happens, I still do my best to use the Kenpo concepts, as I said in another post, but I do click into BJJ mode. Now, lets assume that I was not quick enough in my defense, and I land on the ground. The grappler is now either going to get in my guard, try to mount or sidemount me. Can I use some Kenpo? Sure, but I will be limited as to what I can do, for a number of reasons, the main one being that I'm now on the ground and probably won't have the same movement, if I were standing.
> 
> However, I can defend myself with the BJJ training. I'm not going to spend long periods of time looking for a submission, instead, I'm going to look for an escape or a position that is better for me. Of course, if the sub. presents itself, I'll take it.
> 
> Once I get to a better position, I can continue to fight from the ground or stand up or better yet, try to get the hell out of there.
> 
> Also keep in mind, that if we look back to the early UFCs, we'll see strikers trying hard to counter the shoot or clinch, however, we see them get taken down anyways. Watch a few clips of Royce. You'll notice him doing what seems like a front kick. This is not meant to have any serious effect on the person, instead he's using it to guage his distance. Watch the reaction of the other person. They usually are moving back, trying to avoid this kick. However, by that time, its usually too late, the grappler clinches, and is pulled down. Here are some examples:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I will say again, as I've said many times in the past...I feel that all arts have something to offer. I dont think that someone should drop their base art and take up the flavor of the month. I'm simply saying that arts that specialize in something, should be looked at. If someone does WC, and they understand how a grappler is going to take them down, then they can make their WC defense that much better, just like I do with my Kenpo.


Someone please, help me out hear. Maybe I have been posting in this thread for all the wrong reasons. After looking at the you tube film, it was more of a contest then what I thought it was going to be. Not what I thought we were posting about. I thought it would be knock down drag out. There were rules in these matches that would favor one over the other. The boxer had one gloved hand, bad mistake, and in most other matches I did not see some of the principles I thought could change the outcome. We are talking rules here and that is where I made my mistake. We all spent over 140 posts hashing out whos art was better and wasted numerous hours of typing. I would never put my self in a situation where my art and my reputation were on the line but yet I could not use all of my techniques, it is just crazy. Were these matches geared toward seeing which art was better, or just to see who could get the other person to submit. If I am wrong. Please, let me know, but I think I would have sunk my teeth into any part of his body I could, and there were many chances, and hung on for dear life. This is what bothers me about this whole cage thing, people look at this and determine that any form of punch, kick or strike is inferior. Have I read this whole theard wrong??


----------



## Si-Je

Well, I guess the point of the two video's is to demonstrate how a striker needs BJJ to defend against BJJ.  Fighting fire with fire?
I prefer water for my fire fight.  
Can anyone see the similarities of Wing Chun principles, concepts and techniques in the videos displayed?
I'm really missing it.

I can understand a desire to be able to defend against this type of attack, but I'm not convinced that the best way for a WC/WT practitioner would be to learn how to fight on the ground exactly like this.  Using the same techniques on a fighter that knows the very techniques your trying to use, and that most likely is better at them than a student that is only taking the art of BJJ as a supplement.  Thus, they may just best you with BJJ anyways simply because they may train it exclusively, and you don't.  (just a thought)

The need to be able to defend against this kind of attack is necessary for any fighter or self-defense purpose.  But, how is this done with BJJ mixed with WC/WT techniques and concepts?  I've asked this alot, because I truely don't know.


----------



## seasoned

:asian:
157 threads, and now, maybe this can all come to an end. I would have hoped that by now somebody, beside myself, could see that this whole thing is a sport art versus a traditional self defense art. They dont mix. I feel in the spirit of budo that this whole thing could have been rectified, so as to preserve the integrate of all involved. When you mix 2 or 3 of any art, it becomes MMA. Anybody that continues after this post has not trained long enough to understand the difference. There are so many others subjects we could discuss that would be so much more beneficial. Lets give it a shot. J :asian:


----------



## Mystic Wolf

Wing Chun vs BJJ:jediduel::deadhorse:redeme:


----------



## Yoshiyahu

My Dear friend I totally understand you. In the Street Striking Arts rule...In the Cage where the rules are geared more towards grapplers Striking Arts suck...lol...

You can bite in the cage...Sorry thats not a rule...Although biting may be a form of submission....


Also the reason why they wear gloves now...is because those bareknuckle boxers were killing the grapplers...So to even it out...We now have gloves and weight divisons.


There is nothing wrong with Wrestling...There is nothing wrong with Ground fighting...Its apart of fighting and street fighting...There is a time and place to go to the ground...There is a time an place when not too...



Like for instance I never heard a grappler say he would shoot for the legs of someone carrying a butcher knife...Its just stupid..can you say stab in the back...I bet you the grappler will start throwing some kicks and punches then trying to knock the knife holders block off...


But I feel your frustation...But some people can not comprehend the finer points of Striking and Standing Combat. Ground fighting comes easier to them...Now do not take my words to mean they are unintelliegent...on the contrary thier minds are open up in a different way...They will be able to react and comprehend things on the ground faster than I probably could...Beause thats where their passion is...Where I could understand the ins and outs of using leverage sensitivity and structure while standing...

Just realize these people who promote BJJ love it more than life it self...To them it is the holy Grail...Now they are open to striking thats why the cross train western boxing and muay thai...The have to get a standing game...BJJ is their main art but they are missing the strikes...So they have to add strikes to formulate a strategy to distract, shoot, take down, submit.

This is my opinion i hope no one is offended by it...

Shabbat Shalowm....



seasoned said:


> Someone please, help me out hear. Maybe I have been posting in this thread for all the wrong reasons. After looking at the you tube film, it was more of a contest then what I thought it was going to be. Not what I thought we were posting about. I thought it would be knock down drag out. There were rules in these matches that would favor one over the other. The boxer had one gloved hand, bad mistake, and in most other matches I did not see some of the principles I thought could change the outcome. We are talking rules here and that is where I made my mistake. We all spent over 140 posts hashing out whos art was better and wasted numerous hours of typing. I would never put my self in a situation where my art and my reputation were on the line but yet I could not use all of my techniques, it is just crazy. Were these matches geared toward seeing which art was better, or just to see who could get the other person to submit. If I am wrong. Please, let me know, but I think I would have sunk my teeth into any part of his body I could, and there were many chances, and hung on for dear life. This is what bothers me about this whole cage thing, people look at this and determine that any form of punch, kick or strike is inferior. Have I read this whole theard wrong??


----------



## Yoshiyahu

No mystic wolf thats not accurate analogy of Wing Chun VS BJJ

Try this on for size!!!



*Wing Chun*:wuguns::biggun:*BJJ*

The BJJ Lover()

_I am just Joking I love all you guys...lol..._


Keep the Forum Posistive...





Mystic Wolf said:


> Wing Chun vs BJJ:jediduel::deadhorse:redeme:


----------



## Steve

Okay.  I officially give up.

Edit:  Actually.  I'll take one more stab.  A challenge to si-je, yoshi and anyone else who cares to give it a stab.  I challenge you guys to post one thing that BJJ has in common with wing chun.  Something legitimate.  Rather than reflexively looking to argue.  Rather than immediately trying to think of a way to refute or rebut mine or anyone else's last post, try instead to post something positive.  In the spirit of the thread, try to think outside your current world view.  If it helps, substitute Judo newaza instead of BJJ.  I am sure that there is at least one thing.


----------



## MJS

Sigh...let me try again.  The things that are mentioned, ie: biting, eye gouging, etc. are not limited  to WC.  Those are tools that I too, would use.   I've repeatedly stated that any grappling art could be studied, not just BJJ, and I've also asked for thoughts on other grappling arts, yet never got an answer.

I've also stated that when I do a Kenpo takedown/tackle defense, it still looks like Kenpo.  I stated that I train the defense against a grappler and make slight, subtle adjustments, but again, the defense still looks like Kenpo. 

I'm simply saying to keep the WC defense.  Don't change it to look like BJJ.  Do what I do with mine.  Get with a grappler, test your defense against their mount position, side control, takedowns, etc.  If pure WC works, great.  If not, then you need to go back to the drawing board and figure out why.


----------



## MJS

seasoned said:


> Someone please, help me out hear. Maybe I have been posting in this thread for all the wrong reasons. After looking at the you tube film, it was more of a contest then what I thought it was going to be. Not what I thought we were posting about. I thought it would be knock down drag out. There were rules in these matches that would favor one over the other. The boxer had one gloved hand, bad mistake, and in most other matches I did not see some of the principles I thought could change the outcome. We are talking rules here and that is where I made my mistake. We all spent over 140 posts hashing out whos art was better and wasted numerous hours of typing. I would never put my self in a situation where my art and my reputation were on the line but yet I could not use all of my techniques, it is just crazy. Were these matches geared toward seeing which art was better, or just to see who could get the other person to submit. If I am wrong. Please, let me know, but I think I would have sunk my teeth into any part of his body I could, and there were many chances, and hung on for dear life. This is what bothers me about this whole cage thing, people look at this and determine that any form of punch, kick or strike is inferior. Have I read this whole theard wrong??


 
Guess you missed the point.  I was showing how easy it was, despite the other guys striking, for the grappler to take him down.  Of course, if you had a weapon, if you bit, hit the eyes and throat, etc. things may be different.  However, while those are important tools, I feel that you should also have a plan B, in the event you are not in a position to bite or hit the eyes.


----------



## seasoned

stevebjj said:


> Okay. I officially give up.
> 
> Edit: Actually. I'll take one more stab. A challenge to si-je, yoshi and anyone else who cares to give it a stab. I challenge you guys to post one thing that BJJ has in common with wing chun. Something legitimate. Rather than reflexively looking to argue. Rather than immediately trying to think of a way to refute or rebut mine or anyone else's last post, try instead to post something positive. In the spirit of the thread, try to think outside your current world view. If it helps, substitute Judo newaza instead of BJJ. I am sure that there is at least one thing.


 


Tenacity in posting.


----------



## jarrod

MJS said:


> Guess you missed the point. I was showing how easy it was, despite the other guys striking, for the grappler to take him down. Of course, if you had a weapon, if you bit, hit the eyes and throat, etc. things may be different. However, while those are important tools, I feel that you should also have a plan B, in the event you are not in a position to bite or hit the eyes.


 

mjs, you should know by now that grapplers are always alone, unarmed, toothless, & have giant bulging eyeballs that are much more difficult to protect than the average human being's. also our groins are evidently enormous targets 

*reverts to lurking*

jf


----------



## mook jong man

stevebjj said:


> Okay. I officially give up.
> 
> Edit: Actually. I'll take one more stab. A challenge to si-je, yoshi and anyone else who cares to give it a stab. I challenge you guys to post one thing that BJJ has in common with wing chun. Something legitimate. Rather than reflexively looking to argue. Rather than immediately trying to think of a way to refute or rebut mine or anyone else's last post, try instead to post something positive. In the spirit of the thread, try to think outside your current world view. If it helps, substitute Judo newaza instead of BJJ. I am sure that there is at least one thing.


 
I'll have a crack , I didn't do BJJ so I can't speak for that but I did train with Pancrase guys and what I found was that I started to develop a sensitivity on the ground when in body to body contact mostly feeling with my chest and legs. 

My arm sensitivity and hand speed from Chi Sau came in handy when I was mounted and trying to get an overhook or underhook so I could bridge and roll the guy . 

It also helped when I had him mounted I could thwart his attempts to overhook or underhook my arm . So in closing I would say Wing Chun and groundfighting both develop a type of sensitivity that is suited for their specific purposes .


----------



## dungeonworks

Well, since I was the one that started all this, I will restate my intentions:



What parts of Wing Chun and Brazillian JJ would mesh well together?
Who's doing it, and how are your results thus far?

It was never meant to say which is better, although it drifted into that.  It was never meant to show one up over the other, rather see what the addition of the BJJ ground game, which I feel is one of the very best tried and proven styles around with plenty of video proof from the past and modern competition.  I love Wing Chun and simply was looking at a way I think could give me "value added" benefits from cross training without deviating too far from my Wing Chun.  I already know I can go from Koei-Kan to sub. wrestling with no issues...but Koei-Kan is my base style.  As I learn Wing Chun, I see some things in common between the two arts.  Efficient movement, avoiding force with force, sticking...ect.


----------



## Hand Sword

Would it be a fair assessment for all sides arguing to agree to a simple idea-IMHO? Consider the fact that since the 1st UFC some real attention to the separate worlds of grappling and stand up has be given. Also, whether any truly want to admit to it or not, that event got all sides thinking and addressing (re-addressing?) the issue being debated. And since this is the case would it be fair to say that both sides got a jump and started a sort of evolutionary process? And since that process is still ongoing, would it also be fair to say that no definite answer could be given yet? Especially because the results are on the individual level, and therefore subjective?

I dunno, just a thought I had. Sorry to interrupt dungeonworks.


----------



## JadecloudAlchemist

I feel any type of grappling can be adopted and modified to fit any art.

I find being in someones guard to be similar to push hands and silk reeling found in Tai chi chuan because that is what I used in a BJJ person guard.

I don't see anything wrong with a person wanting to merge BJJ and Wing chun if they feel they can merge it into something they feel will allow them to have a better access to a wider range of an arsenal.

In the end a person makes the art they train in their own. Meaning they adapt,modify,add or subtract according to their ideas,theories,body and experience.  If we do not remain fluid in our ideas and in our minds we will become stiff and unable to bend or move freely in time of action.


----------



## dungeonworks

Hand Sword said:


> ...I dunno, just a thought I had. Sorry to interrupt dungeonworks.



Don't be.  Ain't like I never hijack or go off topic. :angel:

I like the whole enchilada of the debate, including where the conversation goes, even if adrift from the topic.  I was just stating what I was looking for out of this thread is all.


----------



## Mystic Wolf

:deadhorse
Lets just agree to disagree.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Personally I love Judo moves...it has a sorta of flare...as for BJJ having anything in common with WC...


Please lets discuss the principals of WC and compare them to BJJ principals...


But all arts interelate at some point in fair honesty so i am sure you can find one point that interelates with WC. Maybe not structure and formation of basics which makes it so you successfully use you wing chun as second nature. But maybe a technique or two can be compared...


Wow..why is this thread so much more lively than the other WC thread?




stevebjj said:


> Okay. I officially give up.
> 
> Edit: Actually. I'll take one more stab. A challenge to si-je, yoshi and anyone else who cares to give it a stab. I challenge you guys to post one thing that BJJ has in common with wing chun. Something legitimate. Rather than reflexively looking to argue. Rather than immediately trying to think of a way to refute or rebut mine or anyone else's last post, try instead to post something positive. In the spirit of the thread, try to think outside your current world view. If it helps, substitute Judo newaza instead of BJJ. I am sure that there is at least one thing.


----------



## Mystic Wolf

When my students reach Si-Hing or Si-Je, I suggest that they go study another art if they haven't before WC.
The reason is so that they can do random attacks against the students they are instructing. I beleive in keeping the students in WC when training to defend there selves and having them being attacked in different ways,whether standing or on the ground, I keep it WC all the way. And by studing other arts keeps us fresh and knowledgable in WC.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

I suggest meshing Japanese Juijitsu wing chun not bjj...but thats my opinion!





dungeonworks said:


> Well, since I was the one that started all this, I will restate my intentions:
> 
> 
> 
> What parts of Wing Chun and Brazillian JJ would mesh well together?
> Who's doing it, and how are your results thus far?
> It was never meant to say which is better, although it drifted into that. It was never meant to show one up over the other, rather see what the addition of the BJJ ground game, which I feel is one of the very best tried and proven styles around with plenty of video proof from the past and modern competition. I love Wing Chun and simply was looking at a way I think could give me "value added" benefits from cross training without deviating too far from my Wing Chun. I already know I can go from Koei-Kan to sub. wrestling with no issues...but Koei-Kan is my base style. As I learn Wing Chun, I see some things in common between the two arts. Efficient movement, avoiding force with force, sticking...ect.


----------



## Mystic Wolf

Question for the BJJ readers, please explain how you do sensitvity training?


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

In BJJ or any grappling system. ie. wrestling, sambo, greco roman, etc. you are always trying to feel what your opponent is doing and counter their movement.  Rolling with a partner you develop the skill to feel where they are going and then counter it.  The very best bjj practitioners are also in general the most *relaxed and smooth*. (ie. no tension)  This comes from years and years of rolling and being able to pick up where the other person is going via. feeling it through contact.  Experience also plays a part in that you can see/feel what they are trying to do.  Hope that helps.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

I believe all martial arts tend to use the same strategy...but it is very good...thankyou for sharing...



Brian R. VanCise said:


> In BJJ or any grappling system. ie. wrestling, sambo, greco roman, etc. you are always trying to feel what your opponent is doing and counter their movement. Rolling with a partner you develop the skill to feel where they are going and then counter it. The very best bjj practitioners are also in general the most *relaxed and smooth*. (ie. no tension) This comes from years and years of rolling and being able to pick up where the other person is going via. feeling it through contact. Experience also plays a part in that you can see/feel what they are trying to do. Hope that helps.


----------



## D Dempsey

Brian R. VanCise said:


> In BJJ or any grappling system. ie. wrestling, sambo, greco roman, etc. you are always trying to feel what your opponent is doing and counter their movement.  Rolling with a partner you develop the skill to feel where they are going and then counter it.  The very best bjj practitioners are also in general the most *relaxed and smooth*. (ie. no tension)  This comes from years and years of rolling and being able to pick up where the other person is going via. feeling it through contact.  Experience also plays a part in that you can see/feel what they are trying to do.  Hope that helps.


This is also why I have seen several blind grapplers competing and winning in higher level events like the Pan-Ams.


----------



## Mystic Wolf

Now we are getting somewhere.
Ok, in WC we also train to feel where are attacker is going and what his intensions are. We start as soon as they punch.

For example, if the attacker throws a staifgt jab, with our seeking hand, it sences the punch and goes to tan sau then stays with the jab as the attacker retracs the jab we ride up to him following up with chain punches.
The key is also to stay relaxed.

Also on the ground and if someone has us in the mount, the key is to stay relaxed and this is where chi sau comes in very handy. We start to deflect the punches which tells where to displace there energy to buck them off and roll them.


----------



## Steve

On a phone so please ignore typos.  In BJJ, sensitivity is very important as Brian says.  On the subject of intent, along the lines of what mystic wolf mntions, there are common triggers. These are movements that we train so often, over and over, so thy at soon as the opening presents itself, we execute the move.  For example, in mount my opponent on the bottom extends his arms.  There are lots of these.  

Also on the topic of snsitivity, if you really want to see it in Bjj, look at full matches as opposed to the finish.  Often the submission is the end of the match of fight, but the real mastery was what led up, often ignored on YouTube.


----------



## Mystic Wolf

We are thinking along the same lines, the difference I see is that we strike.

Alot of WC instructors do not understand that, what  they have in wc can be applied on the ground so the feel they have to look else where for a ground art. Then again I have experience in ground fighting which helped me in teaching wc concepts on the ground.


----------



## MJS

jarrod said:


> mjs, you should know by now that grapplers are always alone, unarmed, toothless, & have giant bulging eyeballs that are much more difficult to protect than the average human being's. Also our groins are evidently enormous targets :d
> 
> *reverts to lurking*
> 
> jf


 
lmao!!


----------



## MJS

mook jong man said:


> I'll have a crack , I didn't do BJJ so I can't speak for that but I did train with Pancrase guys and what I found was that I started to develop a sensitivity on the ground when in body to body contact mostly feeling with my chest and legs.
> 
> My arm sensitivity and hand speed from Chi Sau came in handy when I was mounted and trying to get an overhook or underhook so I could bridge and roll the guy .
> 
> It also helped when I had him mounted I could thwart his attempts to overhook or underhook my arm . So in closing I would say Wing Chun and groundfighting both develop a type of sensitivity that is suited for their specific purposes .


 
Interesting points that you bring up with the sensitivity.  From time to time, we'll do some grappling with our eyes closed.  This isn't done too fast, but it does create that different feel.  

Sounds like theres one thing that is similar.


----------



## Steve

MJS said:


> Interesting points that you bring up with the sensitivity.  From time to time, we'll do some grappling with our eyes closed.  This isn't done too fast, but it does create that different feel.
> 
> Sounds like theres one thing that is similar.


I'll often close my eyes when sparring.  Not sure whether it helps or not, but particularly when I'm on the bottom, I think it helps.  I can feel changes in weight and more readily identify center of gravity.  Glad I'm not the only one.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

During Chi Sau we also have drills where you close your eyes and feel your opponent next strike?




stevebjj said:


> I'll often close my eyes when sparring. Not sure whether it helps or not, but particularly when I'm on the bottom, I think it helps. I can feel changes in weight and more readily identify center of gravity. Glad I'm not the only one.


----------



## Mystic Wolf

Training blind folded hightens the sensitiviy.


----------



## theletch1

Mystic Wolf said:


> Training blind folded hightens the sensitiviy.


We've trained aikido blindfolded and in the dark before for that very reason.  It heightens sensitivity because it blocks out alot of extemporaneous data that serves to "overload" the brain when it's trying to sift through all the information that is coming in.  Less overload means that your decisions don't have to go through as much filter before you're able to react to the stimuli.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Yea, We should possiblity start a thread on how to use your sensitivity...

Once when I was doing some light sparring with Tai Chi student. I close my eyes while remaining in contact. It was so easy to stop his uprooting techinque and still strike him and move him off his foundation...It felt like I was dancing...I stayed stuck to him the entire time along with continous flow. When I open my eyes he a looked on his like total frustration.

Then from that point I open my eyes and attack as usual...





theletch1 said:


> We've trained aikido blindfolded and in the dark before for that very reason. It heightens sensitivity because it blocks out alot of extemporaneous data that serves to "overload" the brain when it's trying to sift through all the information that is coming in. Less overload means that your decisions don't have to go through as much filter before you're able to react to the stimuli.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Has anyone seen this movie...where can I find it at?


----------



## MJS

Mystic Wolf said:


> We are thinking along the same lines, the difference I see is that we strike.
> 
> Alot of WC instructors do not understand that, what they have in wc can be applied on the ground so the feel they have to look else where for a ground art. Then again I have experience in ground fighting which helped me in teaching wc concepts on the ground.


 
Without the grappling experience, would you say it would be difficult to teach the WC concepts on the ground or would it make no difference?


----------



## Si-Je

I'm not speaking for mystic wolf, but I thought that was a really good question.  My JJJ background actually made it more difficult to understand the WT ground fighting I kept wanting to "grapple", and that's not what you do with WT groundfighting.  Quite the opposite.

But, knowledge in some type of grappling art helps in your ability to teach WT groundfighting to the student.  This helps you give them a more realistic feel for what they will come up against, help them feel the locks, takedows, and positions a grappler will most likely use and how to counter these techniques.
Although you can't cover every technique, at least you can teach the student to feel and adjust to more of a realistic grappling technique.  I think alot of WT teachers do this to help their students learn the proper application of Wing Chun concepts used on the ground against a wrestler, grappler, or BJJ stylist.  
(when hubbie gets home, I'll make sure he checks his MT e-mail to answer better)


----------



## dungeonworks

Si-Je said:


> I'm not speaking for mystic wolf, but I thought that was a really good question.  My JJJ background actually made it more difficult to understand the WT ground fighting I kept wanting to "grapple", and that's not what you do with WT groundfighting.  Quite the opposite.
> 
> But, knowledge in some type of grappling art helps in your ability to teach WT groundfighting to the student.  This helps you give them a more realistic feel for what they will come up against, help them feel the locks, takedows, and positions a grappler will most likely use and how to counter these techniques.
> Although you can't cover every technique, at least you can teach the student to feel and adjust to more of a realistic grappling technique.  I think alot of WT teachers do this to help their students learn the proper application of Wing Chun concepts used on the ground against a wrestler, grappler, or BJJ stylist.
> (when hubbie gets home, I'll make sure he checks his MT e-mail to answer better)



That right there is why getting familiar with a grappling style is important.  I found grappling to be pretty fun and  a hellluva workout!


----------



## Mystic Wolf

MJS said:


> Without the grappling experience, would you say it would be difficult to teach the WC concepts on the ground or would it make no difference?


 
I would have to say some type of ground experience would help the instructor in order to teach WC concepts on the ground to there students.


----------



## MJS

Si-Je said:


> I'm not speaking for mystic wolf, but I thought that was a really good question. My JJJ background actually made it more difficult to understand the WT ground fighting I kept wanting to "grapple", and that's not what you do with WT groundfighting. Quite the opposite.
> 
> But, knowledge in some type of grappling art helps in your ability to teach WT groundfighting to the student. This helps you give them a more realistic feel for what they will come up against, help them feel the locks, takedows, and positions a grappler will most likely use and how to counter these techniques.
> Although you can't cover every technique, at least you can teach the student to feel and adjust to more of a realistic grappling technique. I think alot of WT teachers do this to help their students learn the proper application of Wing Chun concepts used on the ground against a wrestler, grappler, or BJJ stylist.
> (when hubbie gets home, I'll make sure he checks his MT e-mail to answer better)


 


Mystic Wolf said:


> I would have to say some type of ground experience would help the instructor in order to teach WC concepts on the ground to there students.


 

Thank you both for your replies.  Now, and this is just an observation, but it seems to me that we've all been fighting over this subject, and it seems that we've come to the conclusion that we're all pretty much on the same page, although there may be some differences.  We all agree that having some ground experience will help with teaching defense as well as making it easier to teach the WC concepts.  Isn't this what myself and a few others have been saying all along?


----------



## mook jong man

I like to practice grappling with a partner armed with a stick or knife , it just seems to add that little bit of desperation and urgency to your techniques .
 Doing things like starting off from bad positions where you are mounted and the knife is held at your throat , this all adds another aspect to grappling that many people don't think about .


----------



## Mystic Wolf

Sounds like what we do. Every now and again we play with weird scenarios like with waht mook jong man mentioned.
Fun stuff...


----------



## Si-Je

MJS said:


> Thank you both for your replies. Now, and this is just an observation, but it seems to me that we've all been fighting over this subject, and it seems that we've come to the conclusion that we're all pretty much on the same page, although there may be some differences. We all agree that having some ground experience will help with teaching defense as well as making it easier to teach the WC concepts. Isn't this what myself and a few others have been saying all along?


 
In that light, yes.  But, I'm not certian that's what others were saying, as grappling as a "teaching aide".  Seems like many were stating grappling as a WC/WT supplement to add to your self-defense tactics.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

MJS let me asked you a question? Lets say I just start to learn a combat style like Xing Yi, Wing Chun or Praying Mantis? I never took a martial art before. I am like 21 and interested in learning the entire style and mastering it fairly quickly. Would it be wise to try to take wrestling along with Wing Chun or Xing Yi class since this is my first time taking a martials class. Or should I add BJJ to my Xing Yi or Wing Chun training later?


Whats your opinion?


Is it better to master one style first and learn how to fight other styles with my System I am learning. Or should I try to learn two or three style at the same time so I can be a more well rounded fighter. I mean because Xing Yi,Wing Chun, and Praying Mantis lack the hard techniques of Karate, The flying kicks of Tae Kwon Do and may be even lack some techniques that Tang So Do offers. Maybe if I learn high kicks from karate and learn Xing Yi and learn some form of wrestling and judo I would be a great fighter?

But in reality If I am taking Xing Yi already three nights a week and paying forty bucks a class. Where would I get the time and extra money to incorporate a class that offers high kicks, Hard techniques or ground fighting?

I already training three nights a week? An the rest of time I practicing on what I learn?

Also if I train to arts at the same time how would this effect my training?


Si-Je said:


> In that light, yes. But, I'm not certian that's what others were saying, as grappling as a "teaching aide". Seems like many were stating grappling as a WC/WT supplement to add to your self-defense tactics.


----------



## dungeonworks

Yoshiyahu said:


> MJS let me asked you a question? Lets say I just start to learn a combat style like Xing Yi, Wing Chun or Praying Mantis? I never took a martial art before. I am like 21 and interested in learning the entire style and mastering it fairly quickly. Would it be wise to try to take wrestling along with Wing Chun or Xing Yi class since this is my first time taking a martials class. Or should I add BJJ to my Xing Yi or Wing Chun training later?
> 
> 
> Whats your opinion?
> 
> 
> Is it better to master one style first and learn how to fight other styles with my System I am learning. Or should I try to learn two or three style at the same time so I can be a more well rounded fighter. I mean because Xing Yi,Wing Chun, and Praying Mantis lack the hard techniques of Karate, The flying kicks of Tae Kwon Do and may be even lack some techniques that Tang So Do offers. Maybe if I learn high kicks from karate and learn Xing Yi and learn some form of wrestling and judo I would be a great fighter?
> 
> But in reality If I am taking Xing Yi already three nights a week and paying forty bucks a class. Where would I get the time and extra money to incorporate a class that offers high kicks, Hard techniques or ground fighting?
> 
> I already training three nights a week? An the rest of time I practicing on what I learn?
> 
> Also if I train to arts at the same time how would this effect my training?



Why would you want to train as much as your main style if you are only looking to supplement one style?

There are a TON of speculations and stereo types about grapplers in the Wing Chun world...and this is just an observation from a newbie here.  I have about 1 1/2-2 yrs of scattered grappling training, or what many deem "MMA Grappling".  It was mainly BJJ submissions, body control, ground escapes, and takedown defense (which is AWESOME) of freestyle wrestling, and some leg locks from Sambo (I assume).  We did a ton of rolling in that class from a standing position.  Many of the guys competetively fought MMA so there was plenty of striking/grappling together.  I have since moved on top Wing Chun and see things in WC class that really could work well on the ground with WC, namely the ground escapes and takedown defence, but also, Chisao on the ground to avoid the pummeling most wrestle/brawlers attempt when they first get you down.  After the initial barage, when the fatigue kind of begins, they will look to bury their head, relax, change position to mount, and continue.  Here's a video of what I mean:

*Disclaimer*:  Just because the video title says Wing Tsun does not mean it is my claim...as I see nothing Wing Tsun-like in it.

Grappler vs. Wing Tsun (Allegedly)

Notice the grappler holds him closer than his own skin.  This is to not let him have a fraction of an inch to move.  An intermediate grappler only needs that much room to snatch a submission on you rather quickly.  This guy's alleged Wing Tsun could have been greatly improved in this situation with some basic wrestling and BJJ technique supplemented to his Wing Tsun.  I don't think the grappler showed anything spectacular other than a size, strength, and some basic wrestling 101 and BJJ chapter 1 technique to finish.  If you listen closely at the end, it sounds like something snapping.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynyypQ-wa2Q&feature=relatedAaron Baum Wing Chun NHB fight

Here's one of Sifu Alan Orr's students, Aaron Baum, fighting what apears to be modified MMA rules.  I see him using wrestling, submission attempts, and what I "think" is Wing Chun but am not able to make that assumption.  Seeing Baum flow like this is a desent example of what I was asking for out of this thread.  Basically, I am looking to see how WC/WT mesh with positioning and escaping from BJJ (or any grapple art).  Who is doing it?  Who has done it and went back to Wing Chun entirely, and why???  I am not trying to make a mockery out of anyone or any style, just truely seeking the different ways we aproach the ground.  In all honesty, from many of the posts I have read in the Wing Chun forum are *HUGELY *presumptive and assuming.  Basically, I see this attitude of "All you need to do against a grappler is..." and it is far from reality as is a grappler thinking all they need to do against a striker is just shoot for the takedown.  Either way skill level, timing, and flat out luck come into play.  I have been pummeled by grapplers in a couple fights.  It is *NOT A HAPPY PLACE TO BE* with a chiseled brute (most grapplers are in pheniminal shape).  Thank god in both instances their punches were fluffy (this was before UFC and cross training) and I was able to reverse when they got tired of beating on me (You should see what they looked like! LOL).


----------



## MJS

Si-Je said:


> In that light, yes. But, I'm not certian that's what others were saying, as grappling as a "teaching aide". Seems like many were stating grappling as a WC/WT supplement to add to your self-defense tactics.


 
I love to cross train, so my replies probably sounded like I was suggesting adding a grappling art to your base art.  However, I understand some don't like to crosstrain, and thats fine, so at the least, taking a look at a grappling art, again it could be anything...Judo, Sambo, BJJ, Wrestling...anything, see how they address a particular situation, compare that to how your base art addresses it, and see if anything can be added from the grappling art.  If it can, great, if it can't thats ok too.


----------



## Steve

Yoshiyahu said:


> MJS let me asked you a question? Lets say I just start to learn a combat style like Xing Yi, Wing Chun or Praying Mantis? I never took a martial art before. I am like 21 and interested in learning the entire style and mastering it fairly quickly. Would it be wise to try to take wrestling along with Wing Chun or Xing Yi class since this is my first time taking a martials class. Or should I add BJJ to my Xing Yi or Wing Chun training later?
> 
> 
> Whats your opinion?
> 
> 
> Is it better to master one style first and learn how to fight other styles with my System I am learning. Or should I try to learn two or three style at the same time so I can be a more well rounded fighter. I mean because Xing Yi,Wing Chun, and Praying Mantis lack the hard techniques of Karate, The flying kicks of Tae Kwon Do and may be even lack some techniques that Tang So Do offers. Maybe if I learn high kicks from karate and learn Xing Yi and learn some form of wrestling and judo I would be a great fighter?
> 
> But in reality If I am taking Xing Yi already three nights a week and paying forty bucks a class. Where would I get the time and extra money to incorporate a class that offers high kicks, Hard techniques or ground fighting?
> 
> I already training three nights a week? An the rest of time I practicing on what I learn?
> 
> Also if I train to arts at the same time how would this effect my training?


While you asked MJS specifically, since you didn't PM him, I'm presuming that this question is open to everyone.  My opinion is that, first, it depends upon the person.  Everyone has different talents, abilities and aptitudes... and starts with varying levels of fitness.   

Second, it depends upon your own specific goals.  If self defense is your goal,  some arts seem to teach effective self faster than others emphasizing more "art" than "martial."  For example, some people say that tai chi chuan can be effective for self defense, but I don't think anyone would argue that it's the most effective, most practical art for that purpose.  If self defense is more important than the sanctity of an art, I would think people would train in whatever works, is practical and has a short learning curve.  The specific style or styles involved is irrelevant.

Which leads to my third point, it depends upon how you train.  Tai Chi may or may not be good for self defense, but training the way tai chi is trained, self defense is seldom a consideration.  Krav Maga, on the other hand, focuses almost strictly on self defense, and it doesn't seem to take very long to progress.

Finally, I think it's telling that very often when these arguments come up, even those arguing against crosstraining have often crosstrained.  "I've trained grappling, so I can tell you that it's not necessary.  I just use my grappling to help train my students how... not to grapple."  

To be clear, I'm not saying grappling is easier to learn than striking, or BJJ than WC (or vice versa).  I'm saying that, if SD is your goal, "art" and clear lineage is less important than simply what works and how can I learn it quickly.


----------



## MJS

Yoshiyahu said:


> MJS let me asked you a question? Lets say I just start to learn a combat style like Xing Yi, Wing Chun or Praying Mantis? I never took a martial art before. I am like 21 and interested in learning the entire style and mastering it fairly quickly. Would it be wise to try to take wrestling along with Wing Chun or Xing Yi class since this is my first time taking a martials class. Or should I add BJJ to my Xing Yi or Wing Chun training later?
> 
> 
> Whats your opinion?
> 
> 
> Is it better to master one style first and learn how to fight other styles with my System I am learning. Or should I try to learn two or three style at the same time so I can be a more well rounded fighter. I mean because Xing Yi,Wing Chun, and Praying Mantis lack the hard techniques of Karate, The flying kicks of Tae Kwon Do and may be even lack some techniques that Tang So Do offers. Maybe if I learn high kicks from karate and learn Xing Yi and learn some form of wrestling and judo I would be a great fighter?
> 
> But in reality If I am taking Xing Yi already three nights a week and paying forty bucks a class. Where would I get the time and extra money to incorporate a class that offers high kicks, Hard techniques or ground fighting?
> 
> I already training three nights a week? An the rest of time I practicing on what I learn?
> 
> Also if I train to arts at the same time how would this effect my training?


 
I'll do my best to answer your question.  Please keep in mind that this is just my opinion.   You're not the first person who has asked this question, so my reply is probably going to be similar to what I've said to others.  

IMO, I feel that one should have a solid base art first, before looking at something else.  I didn't start crosstraining until I was a brown belt in Kenpo.  I was in the advanced ranks, and while I wouldn't say I was a master of Kenpo, I had been training for a while, and had a good understanding of the material, so I felt that I was ready to look at something else.  Of course, this will vary from person to person.  Some may be ready after 4 yrs, some after 8.

Keep in mind, that another question that always comes up is, "How will I find the time?"  Well, in school/college, we take many different classes, so yes, it can be done.   Speaking for myself only here, and I said this in a recent thread I started about spending a lifetime in the arts, that I am in no rush.  I'm not a rank whore, so personally, that isn't a priority for me, and really, it shouldn't be for anyone.  What matters most to me, is the learning.  For the amount of time I've been training in Arnis, I just tested for my black, last year.  But again, that doesn't matter to me.  Again, I could care less about the rank, the stripes on the belt or whatever else...its the learning that matters most.  My work schedule does not allow me to attend classes at night, so I make do with day time classes, when I can, private lessons, and on nights that I am off, I make it to a class.  Fortunately, my teachers understand this, and they work around their schedules for me. 

I may not make it to an Arnis class for a month, but like I said, I work the material that I had, get together with other students, etc., and make it happen.   I never said it was easy, but yes, it can be done. 

As for the arts that I study...those arts came to me, I didn't go to them.  One of the teachers at one of my old Kenpo schools, was a black belt in Arnis, and started teaching classes one night a week.  I gave it a shot, and was hooked.  The BJJ came to me from a guy who had brought his daughter to a class.  I was working out and noticed him working some punch/kick combos on a heavy bag in the corner.  I walked over, started talking, exchanged info on what we each did, and met for a BJJ lesson.  After seeing how much I felt like a fish out of water, I was hooked again.  

Like Kenpo, I'm no BJJ or Arnis master.  The learning journey for me, is not like some others that we see in the martial arts world, where its a race to see how fast they can get promoted, how many stripes they can show off, and how many arts they can pad their martial arts resume with.  I will say it again...none of that matters to me.  I am in it to learn, plain and simple.  I don't plan on stopping anytime soon, God willing.  

Everyone that I train with, has more than one background, so its like I'm constantly surrounded by it.  The arts I study, work well for me.  They blend together very well, and its amazing how many times, when I'm working techs., that I find ways to add stuff in. 

Sorry for the long rant.  I hope that this answered your question. 

Mike


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Yea, Actually I have trained in Aikido when I was a kid. It was totally unpractical in fights. I never could use any of the moves on people. When I was a kid every one fought like a boxer with the speed of leopard. So waiting for them to strike you and countering all the time doesn't work when you get pummeled with barage of endless attacks. I mean In WC I learn how to block and punch correctly right away.  So even if I didn't beat a guy up. I could stop from getting my jocked socked. It was a great feeling to know I could stop the average guy from hitting. High School would have been a nightmare if I didn't have Wing Chun. I hated Junior high because all I knew was some Aikido and a little Judo. After I throw the guy then what. He is going to get up and run for me again. Alot of guys were bigger than me. So the hip throw is out of the question unless I want to be on ground.

I didn't learn how to block or punch effectively until Wing Chun. Its alot easier to chain punch a guys face then wait for him to grab your shirt with both hands. This never happen. No one goes up to you an grabs you by the shirt like they do in classes when your wearing gi. No they say whats up man and then start punching you in the face. Sometime they say nothing an just start punching you because they don't like how you look.

No, No, I mean don't get wrong wrestling is great. We had a wrestling team in high school But i never seen a highschool fight where someone got wrestled. Even the wrestlers knew they better punch and doge. Plus you get to wrestling some cat. Who's to say someone else won't jump in. Free hits. At my school people who didn't know either of you jumped in just to get free hits of someone.

lol...

So for me I cross trained. But no...the Cross training didn't do me any good. Until I started Wing Chun. Even now in a fight Aikido and Judo may work 5% of the time. But its usually only good for transition or delaying his attack. When in a fight you want to totally destroy your opponent quickly. You won't to end the fight quickly not prolong it. I mean its great for showing people possible ways you could put someone in a hold. But the main thing is you have to grabbed their punch. With Wing Chun you do so. But why wrestle with the arm to put them in some submission or Chin Na move when you can strike the head. For instance Jut Sau and Punch at the same time(Wing Chun)...Or you could grab the arm, Step in, twist the arm down, Turn you body, then pull the wrist down making the shoulder point upward(Aikido). Then pull the person to the ground. I rather just kick your legs from under you while punching you in sternum or neck to make you fall!








stevebjj said:


> While you asked MJS specifically, since you didn't PM him, I'm presuming that this question is open to everyone. My opinion is that, first, it depends upon the person. Everyone has different talents, abilities and aptitudes... and starts with varying levels of fitness.
> 
> Second, it depends upon your own specific goals. If self defense is your goal, some arts seem to teach effective self faster than others emphasizing more "art" than "martial." For example, some people say that tai chi chuan can be effective for self defense, but I don't think anyone would argue that it's the most effective, most practical art for that purpose. If self defense is more important than the sanctity of an art, I would think people would train in whatever works, is practical and has a short learning curve. The specific style or styles involved is irrelevant.
> 
> Which leads to my third point, it depends upon how you train. Tai Chi may or may not be good for self defense, but training the way tai chi is trained, self defense is seldom a consideration. Krav Maga, on the other hand, focuses almost strictly on self defense, and it doesn't seem to take very long to progress.
> 
> Finally, I think it's telling that very often when these arguments come up, even those arguing against crosstraining have often crosstrained. "I've trained grappling, so I can tell you that it's not necessary. I just use my grappling to help train my students how... not to grapple."
> 
> To be clear, I'm not saying grappling is easier to learn than striking, or BJJ than WC (or vice versa). I'm saying that, if SD is your goal, "art" and clear lineage is less important than simply what works and how can I learn it quickly.


----------



## JadecloudAlchemist

> I am like 21 and interested in learning the entire style and mastering it fairly quickly. Would it be wise to try to take wrestling along with Wing Chun or Xing Yi class since this is my first time taking a martials class.


 I think it is fine for the first 3 months of Hsing YI you will mostly do Santi anyway or until you can sit in Santi for 20 mins or so how ever long that takes you.




> Would it be wise to try to take wrestling along with Wing Chun or Xing Yi class since this is my first time taking a martials class. Or should I add BJJ to my Xing Yi or Wing Chun training later?


 
If you divide your time correctly or have private lessons don't see a problem. If you are training Hsing Yi you will be doing mostly do Santi.
I guess in Wing Chun you start off in stances or so and wrestling you are doing some sort of wrestling/sparing in first class.



> But in reality If I am taking Xing Yi already three nights a week and paying forty bucks a class. Where would I get the time and extra money to incorporate a class that offers high kicks, Hard techniques or ground fighting?


 I train Bagua,Hsing yi and Tai chi chuan every day.  Adjust your time. If you want to train in  more than one art make the time figure out how to make the money to pay for it.

If you work 8hrs a day and sleep 6hrs a day that leaves you with 14hrs to figure out how to train in the arts you want to.


----------



## Si-Je

To say that people have crosstrained that don't believe in crosstraining is misleading.  I've never crosstrained.  I've studied one art at a time for 6 months to 3 years at a time.  I wouldn't necessarily call that crosstraining.  That is devotion to the art you are in at the time.
Cross training to me is taking 2 or more arts at the same time.  This I don't recomend if one is to progress in an art in a timely manner.  If you want to take a little from one art and then a little bit from another, hense MMA, then that brings a different outcome to the persons style of fighting.
Are them "more well rounded?" or are they just compiling a few techniques to allow them to fight for sport asap?  Is this a viable way to train to defend oneself in the street?  This is all debateable.  And my opinion is already widely known in this matter.  Focus on what you train, use what you train, stick to what you know, and adapt your style in application of street self defense.  To mix too much can lead to confusion in the heat of the moment, or it could help.  It's all up to the individual and the way they learn and can apply what they learn.
Why I don't like the students of WC to crosstrain grappling at the same time is because WC is learning how to punch and strike at GRAPPLING RANGE.  If they always fall back on grappling at that range, they will never learn the striking aspects of WC/WT in that range.
Do I mind them learning grappling later? no.  It's their choice, but I prefer them to have a good foundation in all ranges of WT/WC before they crosstrain in a grappling art.
As Sifu said, at the level of Si-Je and SiHing he encourages the assistant teachers to crosstrain in other arts, boxing, kickboxing, grappling, whatever to help them give the newer students a more realistic example of what they may face on the street.  But, by then a assistant teacher has been in WC/WT for 3-4 years exclusively.  Not everyone after that time in WC/WT becomes a SiHing or SiJe, you can "skip" that training and continue learning WC or whatever art as you like.  Not everyone training in any art trains to become a teacher.  And a teachers curriculum is different than that of a regular student.


----------



## Steve

Si-Je said:


> To say that people have crosstrained that don't believe in crosstraining is misleading.


My intent wasn't to mislead, although i'm not sure I'll ever convince you of that.





> I've never crosstrained. I've studied one art at a time for 6 months to 3 years at a time. I wouldn't necessarily call that crosstraining. That is devotion to the art you are in at the time.


By my definition, you've crosstrained.  I've also heard what you describe being something of a buffet martial artist.  





> Cross training to me is taking 2 or more arts at the same time.


Thanks.  It's helpful when we're defining the terms the same way.  Now that I know your definition of crosstraining, I can comment more accurately on that.  If crosstraining is studying two arts at the sam time, I'd say that it's not for everyone.  

Some people can learn two foreig languages at the same time and some can't.  I wonder if it would be easier to learn two completely different languages, such as Japanese and Spanish, at the same time, or two similar languages, perhaps Spanish and Portuguese.  I'll have to run that by my multi-lingual friends.

Anyway, back to the point, it depends upon the person.  And their goals.





> This I don't recomend if one is to progress in an art in a timely manner.


I agree, and said so in my last post.  If progressing in an art is more important than practical, pragmatic, results oriented self defense, you're not doing yourself any favors by dividing your time and attention.





> If you want to take a little from one art and then a little bit from another, hense MMA, then that brings a different outcome to the persons style of fighting.


That is very true.  Whether this style of fighting is good, bad, effective for self defense or not, it is very different.





> Are them "more well rounded?" or are they just compiling a few techniques to allow them to fight for sport asap?


When some trains in RBSD, are they more well rounded, or are they just compiling a few techniques to allow them to fight for self defense asap?  I think that it's semantics.  Compiling techniques... or rather, proficiency to the point that a technique is internalized and incorporated into a person's arsenal IS becoming both well rounded and learning to fight ASAP for whatever purpose, be it SD or sport.





> And my opinion is already widely known in this matter. Focus on what you train, use what you train, stick to what you know, and adapt your style in application of street self defense. To mix too much can lead to confusion in the heat of the moment, or it could help. It's all up to the individual and the way they learn and can apply what they learn.


I think you've said two different things here and lead into some common ground:





> Why I don't like the students of WC to crosstrain grappling at the same time is because WC is learning how to punch and strike at GRAPPLING RANGE. If they always fall back on grappling at that range, they will never learn the striking aspects of WC/WT in that range.
> Do I mind them learning grappling later? no. It's their choice, but I prefer them to have a good foundation in all ranges of WT/WC before they crosstrain in a grappling art.
> As Sifu said, at the level of Si-Je and SiHing he encourages the assistant teachers to crosstrain in other arts, boxing, kickboxing, grappling, whatever to help them give the newer students a more realistic example of what they may face on the street. But, by then a assistant teacher has been in WC/WT for 3-4 years exclusively. Not everyone after that time in WC/WT becomes a SiHing or SiJe, you can "skip" that training and continue learning WC or whatever art as you like. Not everyone training in any art trains to become a teacher. And a teachers curriculum is different than that of a regular student.


I don't recall anyone saying that you need to or even should start off training in multiple styles.  I certainly don't disagree with you on this.  I would only say that there are single schools and styles that address all aspects.  MMA is, in my opinion, quickly becoming it's own discreet style.  It's not there yet, but there is a common formula that is largely accepted that includes aspects of wrestling, bjj and muay thai.  

There will always be BJJ, Muay Thai and Wrestling.  I'm not saying these will disappear.  Rather, there will be BJJ, Muay Thai, Wrestling, and eventually a single style called "MMA".  Of course, it could be argued that this already exists and is called Pancrase.  

What I'm driving at is if you train in one school through all of the ranges, you're not crosstraining, and it's rapidly approaching a time when MMA will be its own style where training MMA isn't by definition crosstraining.


----------



## JadecloudAlchemist

> If you work 8hrs a day and sleep 6hrs a day that leaves you with 14hrs to figure out how to train in the arts you want to.


 
Opps I meant 10 hours to train.



> I wonder if it would be easier to learn two completely different languages, such as Japanese and Spanish,


 
I hear that Spanish and Japanese have the sentence structure similar.


----------



## Steve

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> Opps I meant 10 hours to train.
> 
> I hear that Spanish and Japanese have the sentence structure similar.


I was talking to a couple of people I know who have learned multiple foriegn languages for their take on the subject. One is bilingual from youth, having grown up in Puerto Rico. The others all learned languages as adults. All are fluent. I was surprised by their response and it makes a lot of sense to me.

Their unanimous, immediate reaction was to say that the older a person is, the more difficult it will be to "flip the switch" between distinct languages. They both agreed that it was possible to learn multiple languages at the same time, but as a person gets older, this becomes more difficult. Similarity plays a role, but they disagreed about which was "easier." 

Where the conversation began to diverge was when athletics were brought up. A decathlete, for example, learns 10 different sports, but as part of one system.   So then the question becomes one of synthesis and integration, rather than the scope of training.  

Anyway, it's an interesting line of thought. I'm not sure that this provides any resolution or furthers the conversation, but I think it's interesting and at least relevant to the topic.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

I was woundering does anyone think Wing Chun and Tae Kwon Do would make a good match?




stevebjj said:


> I was talking to a couple of people I know who have learned multiple foriegn languages for their take on the subject. One is bilingual from youth, having grown up in Puerto Rico. The others all learned languages as adults. All are fluent. I was surprised by their response and it makes a lot of sense to me.
> 
> Their unanimous, immediate reaction was to say that the older a person is, the more difficult it will be to "flip the switch" between distinct languages. They both agreed that it was possible to learn multiple languages at the same time, but as a person gets older, this becomes more difficult. Similarity plays a role, but they disagreed about which was "easier."
> 
> Where the conversation began to diverge was when athletics were brought up. A decathlete, for example, learns 10 different sports, but as part of one system. So then the question becomes one of synthesis and integration, rather than the scope of training.
> 
> Anyway, it's an interesting line of thought. I'm not sure that this provides any resolution or furthers the conversation, but I think it's interesting and at least relevant to the topic.


----------



## dungeonworks

Yoshiyahu said:


> I was woundering does anyone think Wing Chun and Tae Kwon Do would make a good match?



I could see using a kick or combination of kicks to close the gap, but other than that I never saw anything that would make them a good match.  Who said it was???


----------



## Yoshiyahu

What about some of hand techniques in Authenic Tae Kwon Do. Like there Traditional Forms 




dungeonworks said:


> I could see using a kick or combination of kicks to close the gap, but other than that I never saw anything that would make them a good match. Who said it was???


----------



## dungeonworks

Yoshiyahu said:


> What about some of hand techniques in Authenic Tae Kwon Do. Like there Traditional Forms



I personally disliked the hand techniques in TKD as done in the forms....same with Karate, but the way I was taught is the over exaggeration of the movements in Karate kata was to work the full range of motion because in a fight, a little movement "feels" like a lot of movement.  I agree, especially after seeing my first kickboxing match on video.  I felt like I was moving like Bruce Lee or Benny Uriqidez but looked more like a caucasian and 100lbs. smaller BOB SAPP!!! LOL

Bob Sapp







Okay, maybe he has a _little bit_ more musculature! :uhyeah:


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Whats wrong with the hand techniques in TKD?

Please explain how they are over exaggerated?



dungeonworks said:


> I personally disliked the hand techniques in TKD as done in the forms....same with Karate, but the way I was taught is the over exaggeration of the movements in Karate kata was to work the full range of motion because in a fight, a little movement "feels" like a lot of movement. I agree, especially after seeing my first kickboxing match on video. I felt like I was moving like Bruce Lee or Benny Uriqidez but looked more like a caucasian and 100lbs. smaller BOB SAPP!!! LOL
> 
> Bob Sapp
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, maybe he has a _little bit_ more musculature! :uhyeah:


----------



## dungeonworks

Yoshiyahu said:


> Whats wrong with the hand techniques in TKD?
> 
> Please explain how they are over exaggerated?




They tend to be inefficient.  Many of them are based from the horse stance, be it stepping/jumping in (or off) on an angle while blocking an incoming punch, deeply chambering the punching hand, then executing.  While I think it is good in theory for basic hand strikes for a new martial artist, it's slow and choppy and leaves you wide open in the abdomen or face, and the stances never worked for me...this is all just my opinion of course.  In Karate, I was taught that the movements are much shorter in sparring than they are in kata.  I do love TKD kicks though.  A good TKD kicker is hard to close the gap on.  They'll keep many at kicking range where they like it.

My opinion on TKD is that a small percentage of practitioners will be able to make it work.  It takes flexibility, stamina, speed, and coordination....attributes that many take a lifetime chasing and few ever grasp.  Wing Chun is a contrast to it IMHO because it is ALL efficiency.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Did you acquire a black belt in Karate or TKD?



dungeonworks said:


> They tend to be inefficient. Many of them are based from the horse stance, be it stepping/jumping in (or off) on an angle while blocking an incoming punch, deeply chambering the punching hand, then executing. While I think it is good in theory for basic hand strikes for a new martial artist, it's slow and choppy and leaves you wide open in the abdomen or face, and the stances never worked for me...this is all just my opinion of course. In Karate, I was taught that the movements are much shorter in sparring than they are in kata. I do love TKD kicks though. A good TKD kicker is hard to close the gap on. They'll keep many at kicking range where they like it.
> 
> My opinion on TKD is that a small percentage of practitioners will be able to make it work. It takes flexibility, stamina, speed, and coordination....attributes that many take a lifetime chasing and few ever grasp. Wing Chun is a contrast to it IMHO because it is ALL efficiency.


----------



## dungeonworks

Blue in TKD and 2nd brown (Ni Kyu) in Koei-Kan Karate.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Have you seeen any of the TKD upper Black belt forms?




dungeonworks said:


> Blue in TKD and 2nd brown (Ni Kyu) in Koei-Kan Karate.


----------



## dungeonworks

Yoshiyahu said:


> Have you seeen any of the TKD upper Black belt forms?




I've seen themabout 10-12 years ago, when I left TKD for Koei-kan..  I've also sparred with them on many occasions.  I left TKD because I simply didn't see anymore reason to stay in it.  Plus, the Koei-kan dojo offered kickboxing and Bogu sparring.  It is a full contact Karate instead of that tag game 95% of dojo's/Dojang's play.  Point karate is not interesting to me at all and that is the type of sparring the TKD school I last trained at did.

Why don't you start a thread about Wing Chun and TKD or just PM me?  You seem interested enough and this one is already about Wing Chun + BJJ.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Well I think TKD is just like BJJ. It right now is rather one sided. But TKD unlike BJJ is not one sided in its traditional form. Plus what is BJJ but Brazilian JiuJitsu. If we are talking about mixing I think other styles mixed with WC could also be brought up in this thread...Since we are talking about plus WC what about Karate plus wrestling?

Or TKD plus wrestling?




dungeonworks said:


> I've seen themabout 10-12 years ago, when I left TKD for Koei-kan.. I've also sparred with them on many occasions. I left TKD because I simply didn't see anymore reason to stay in it. Plus, the Koei-kan dojo offered kickboxing and Bogu sparring. It is a full contact Karate instead of that tag game 95% of dojo's/Dojang's play. Point karate is not interesting to me at all and that is the type of sparring the TKD school I last trained at did.
> 
> Why don't you start a thread about Wing Chun and TKD or just PM me? You seem interested enough and this one is already about Wing Chun + BJJ.


----------



## Steve

Yoshiyahu said:


> Well I think TKD is just like BJJ. It right now is rather one sided. But TKD unlike BJJ is not one sided in its traditional form. Plus what is BJJ but Brazilian JiuJitsu.


Can you explain this a little more?  I'm not sure I understand your point.  BJJ is as one sided as WC, and of course it's Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.  What is WC but Wing Chun?


----------



## dungeonworks

stevebjj said:


> Can you explain this a little more?  I'm not sure I understand your point.  BJJ is as one sided as WC, and of course it's Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.  What is WC but Wing Chun?




Same here.


----------



## dungeonworks

If you're asking if I think BJJ + TKD is a good mix, I would answer heck yes.  TKD kicks against a good grappler is likely going to the ground if he misses a kick or has it caught.  BJJ would be a nice tool box for the TKD guy to transition to.


----------



## Eru IlÃºvatar

I don't mean to say anything with posting this vids, just got an asociation when reading about kicking and thought it's interesting to see.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBdtzh8y7sc&feature=rec-fresh

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=EhsanShafiq&view=videos


----------



## Nolerama

Eru Ilúvatar;1101406 said:
			
		

> I don't mean to say anything with posting this vids, just got an asociation when reading about kicking and thought it's interesting to see.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBdtzh8y7sc&feature=rec-fresh
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=EhsanShafiq&view=videos



The first one's been removed. I don't know what you're trying to get us to watch in the second one. Please elaborate.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Yea thats what I am saying!!!



dungeonworks said:


> If you're asking if I think BJJ + TKD is a good mix, I would answer heck yes. TKD kicks against a good grappler is likely going to the ground if he misses a kick or has it caught. BJJ would be a nice tool box for the TKD guy to transition to.


----------



## KamonGuy2

Oh dear I'm starting to see why there is a confusion about BJJ

If you truly think that TKD is a good self defence art, then you really need to get out into the proper martial arts arena

It is a sport. Nothing else. The farce at the Olympics should have shown that. Especially, when one of the fighters went to knock out the referee because he was disqualified and the referee merely shrugged at his attack

I trained various different versiosn of TKD, and each one ws just as poor as the other. Yes, if you are standing still and let the guy do a kick to your head, its going to hurt, but that was the problem, when we trained full sparring (any style vs any style) it was a lot of fun. As soon as distance closed, they didn't knwo what to do. And most of the long range stuff was very easy to get out of the way of

I currently train in karate, which whilst quite 'solid/fixed' has a lot more power, depth, no flamboyant kicks or over energetic punches
It is a much better fit for my long range game. And I have chosen a karate style that you don't need to put strength into it, so it fits well into my wing chun 

Don't get me wrong - every martial art style has its place, but I have a real problem with people claiming TKD to be a good self defence style. It is like me trying to say that wing chun is a great sport


----------



## KamonGuy2

Si-Je said:


> To say that people have crosstrained that don't believe in crosstraining is misleading. I've never crosstrained. I've studied one art at a time for 6 months to 3 years at a time. I wouldn't necessarily call that crosstraining. That is devotion to the art you are in at the time.
> Cross training to me is taking 2 or more arts at the same time. This I don't recomend if one is to progress in an art in a timely manner. If you want to take a little from one art and then a little bit from another, hense MMA, then that brings a different outcome to the persons style of fighting.
> Are them "more well rounded?" or are they just compiling a few techniques to allow them to fight for sport asap? Is this a viable way to train to defend oneself in the street? This is all debateable. And my opinion is already widely known in this matter. Focus on what you train, use what you train, stick to what you know, and adapt your style in application of street self defense. To mix too much can lead to confusion in the heat of the moment, or it could help. It's all up to the individual and the way they learn and can apply what they learn.
> Why I don't like the students of WC to crosstrain grappling at the same time is because WC is learning how to punch and strike at GRAPPLING RANGE. If they always fall back on grappling at that range, they will never learn the striking aspects of WC/WT in that range.
> Do I mind them learning grappling later? no. It's their choice, but I prefer them to have a good foundation in all ranges of WT/WC before they crosstrain in a grappling art.
> As Sifu said, at the level of Si-Je and SiHing he encourages the assistant teachers to crosstrain in other arts, boxing, kickboxing, grappling, whatever to help them give the newer students a more realistic example of what they may face on the street. But, by then a assistant teacher has been in WC/WT for 3-4 years exclusively. Not everyone after that time in WC/WT becomes a SiHing or SiJe, you can "skip" that training and continue learning WC or whatever art as you like. Not everyone training in any art trains to become a teacher. And a teachers curriculum is different than that of a regular student.


 
Nonsense. You have cross trained, simple as that. Any person who has done more than one art and done them well has cross trained. MMA guys usually only train certain martial arts for a couple of months and move on. True, that they usually start out with some kind of foundation art, but have to work on all areas in order to get into the cage

I originally trained in karate for seven years, then went into boxing, ninjitsu, escrima, TKD, wrestling and a couple of others whilst I as going through high school. Then I started Kamon wing chun and never looked back. I wouldn't say that I have mastered the art, but it has certainly been the art that gave me foundations 
I would never reccomend that a beginner (someone who has trained for 3 years or less) should start going into other martial arts, but certainly once you are confident with your wing chun and are merely perfecting what you have already learnt, you should start looking at other styles and do them in a very relaxed way (ie once a week)

To become good at self defence, you must have all areas covered. Groundwork is part of that. I think people misconceive the idea that if they go to ground then they wrap themselves into clinches until they get a submission. I'm not talking about that. I am talking abou understanding the basic principles so that if someone gets on top of you, you aren't going to panic and try to a pathetic flurry of chain punches while some brute hammers down on you

You merely need to know how to recover from those kind of situations until you find yourself back in a dominant position where you can use your most powerful weapon - wing chun. Even if the person is a good grappler it will not matter. I have sparred with purple, brown and black belts and whilst I could never even dream of out grappling them (even with my size/strength), I know that I could get them into a position where I would at least I have a chance of using my wing chun. 

So many people on these forums worry about destroying the purity of their art. That is nonsense. Most of the martial arts we see today (including wing chun) has been modified, adpated and made much more efficient. 

I would like to think that had ip Man been alive today, he would have admitted interest in the grappling game (maybe he was, who knows)


----------



## dungeonworks

Kamon Guy said:


> Oh dear I'm starting to see why there is a confusion about BJJ
> 
> If you truly think that TKD is a good self defence art, then you really need to get out into the proper martial arts arena
> 
> It is a sport. Nothing else. The farce at the Olympics should have shown that. Especially, when one of the fighters went to knock out the referee because he was disqualified and the referee merely shrugged at his attack
> 
> I trained various different versiosn of TKD, and each one ws just as poor as the other. Yes, if you are standing still and let the guy do a kick to your head, its going to hurt, but that was the problem, when we trained full sparring (any style vs any style) it was a lot of fun. As soon as distance closed, they didn't knwo what to do. And most of the long range stuff was very easy to get out of the way of
> 
> I currently train in karate, which whilst quite 'solid/fixed' has a lot more power, depth, no flamboyant kicks or over energetic punches
> It is a much better fit for my long range game. And I have chosen a karate style that you don't need to put strength into it, so it fits well into my wing chun
> 
> Don't get me wrong - every martial art style has its place, but I have a real problem with people claiming TKD to be a good self defence style. It is like me trying to say that wing chun is a great sport




Kamon, don't know if you were directing this my way or not.  What I said is that TKD would be good for a BJJ guy.  It'd be a good bridge to the ground or at distance.  I had a few guys in my old TKD school that could use it very well, which brings me to my other point....some are a natural fit for TKD, others have to REALLY work at it, and some will really work at it and never be adept with it.  I fall somewhere between the last two regarding TKD.  I been out of TKD now since about 1995 as I thought it had nothing else to offer aside the flexability and kicks I still have today and that the Koei-Kan Karate did (full contact sparring, better hands, throws, some grappling, locks...ect).  It was much better fit for me and my body frame.  Koei-Kan is an ecclectic Karate consisting of Chinese, Japanese, and Okinawan styles.  If you have it near you, it is worth a look.  

What Karate are you training, Ashihara???


----------



## Eru IlÃºvatar

> It is a sport. Nothing else. The farce at the Olympics should have shown that. Especially, when one of the fighters went to knock out the referee because he was disqualified and the referee merely shrugged at his attack


 
Indeed that was very funy  I like watching good TKD matches tho.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Was TKD always a sport or was it once a self defence.

Also Did old TKD utilize more real fighting aspects oppose sports sparring?

Also would you say TKD would be useful in a street fight?



Kamon Guy said:


> Oh dear I'm starting to see why there is a confusion about BJJ
> 
> If you truly think that TKD is a good self defence art, then you really need to get out into the proper martial arts arena
> 
> It is a sport. Nothing else. The farce at the Olympics should have shown that. Especially, when one of the fighters went to knock out the referee because he was disqualified and the referee merely shrugged at his attack
> 
> I trained various different versiosn of TKD, and each one ws just as poor as the other. Yes, if you are standing still and let the guy do a kick to your head, its going to hurt, but that was the problem, when we trained full sparring (any style vs any style) it was a lot of fun. As soon as distance closed, they didn't knwo what to do. And most of the long range stuff was very easy to get out of the way of
> 
> I currently train in karate, which whilst quite 'solid/fixed' has a lot more power, depth, no flamboyant kicks or over energetic punches
> It is a much better fit for my long range game. And I have chosen a karate style that you don't need to put strength into it, so it fits well into my wing chun
> 
> Don't get me wrong - every martial art style has its place, but I have a real problem with people claiming TKD to be a good self defence style. It is like me trying to say that wing chun is a great sport


----------



## dungeonworks

Yoshiyahu said:


> Was TKD always a sport or was it once a self defence.
> 
> Also Did old TKD utilize more real fighting aspects oppose sports sparring?
> 
> Also would you say TKD would be useful in a street fight?



Was Hijacking a Wing Chun + BJJ threads with irrelevant Tae Kwon Do questions without purpose?

Also, would you say your answering questions without adding insight as to why you ask those questions is useful or has any purpose other than to derail this thread?

Also, would you say your Tae Kwon Do questions would be useful in a separate thread?


----------



## Yoshiyahu

I have no idea what your talking about right now?



dungeonworks said:


> Was Hijacking a Wing Chun + BJJ threads with irrelevant Tae Kwon Do questions without purpose?
> 
> Also, would you say your answering questions without adding insight as to why you ask those questions is useful or has any purpose other than to derail this thread?
> 
> Also, would you say your Tae Kwon Do questions would be useful in a separate thread?


----------



## KamonGuy2

dungeonworks said:


> What Karate are you training, Ashihara???


 
It is a slight variation of Kyukoshinkai karate 
My sensai teaches full contact but emphasises a lot on not always blocking block for block (ie don't use strength vs strength)

He is a very good instructor and knows the difference between what will work and what won't (ie when we do stancework, he explains that its just to train the legs and not a practical self defence stance)


----------



## KamonGuy2

Yoshiyahu said:


> Was TKD always a sport or was it once a self defence.
> 
> Also Did old TKD utilize more real fighting aspects oppose sports sparring?
> 
> Also would you say TKD would be useful in a street fight?


 
I will answer this quick, but if you have more questions relayed to TKD, let's move the thread, or just PM me

All martial arts have certain movements that can in theory be used in anything. You could, if forced, find a way to make wing chun a sport (indeed there are a few chi sao tournaments that fly about)

Similarly (as I said) if you catch an opponent off guard with a roundhouse kick, you are going to hurt them. Yet, my point was that there are far far better arts to use for self defence than TKD

Every TKD demo I have seen related to self defence has been fixed drills and the opponent had to be doing a certain technique. Whereas in wing chun for example, i can ask my students to throw in ANY attack and I will deal with it. Not always brilliantly, but I will deal with it nonetheless. Most TKD guys fall apart if you grab them 

I have done a lot of TKD and CKD and in all honesty the only thing I took away from it was the fitness from the sparring. Everything else I learnt better and quicker elsewhere

I'm not trying to bash TKD, like Dungeonworks said - there are people in the world who want to do martial arts with sparring without getting a serious pounding. Its fun and active, but I wouldn't say it is an art designed for self defence

As I mentioned before - just look at the Olympics...


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Would you say BJJ is more of sport or self defense in your opinion?


Would you say BJJ is more practical in getting a work out and building stamina that it is in self defence techniques?

How do you think a skilled TKD guy would fair against a Brazilian Jiujitsu guy in a street fight? In your humble opinion?





Kamon Guy said:


> I will answer this quick, but if you have more questions relayed to TKD, let's move the thread, or just PM me
> 
> All martial arts have certain movements that can in theory be used in anything. You could, if forced, find a way to make wing chun a sport (indeed there are a few chi sao tournaments that fly about)
> 
> Similarly (as I said) if you catch an opponent off guard with a roundhouse kick, you are going to hurt them. Yet, my point was that there are far far better arts to use for self defence than TKD
> 
> Every TKD demo I have seen related to self defence has been fixed drills and the opponent had to be doing a certain technique. Whereas in wing chun for example, i can ask my students to throw in ANY attack and I will deal with it. Not always brilliantly, but I will deal with it nonetheless. Most TKD guys fall apart if you grab them
> 
> I have done a lot of TKD and CKD and in all honesty the only thing I took away from it was the fitness from the sparring. Everything else I learnt better and quicker elsewhere
> 
> I'm not trying to bash TKD, like Dungeonworks said - there are people in the world who want to do martial arts with sparring without getting a serious pounding. Its fun and active, but I wouldn't say it is an art designed for self defence
> 
> As I mentioned before - just look at the Olympics...


----------



## dungeonworks

I know this wasn't asked of me but here's my two cents.



Yoshiyahu said:


> Would you say BJJ is more of sport or self defense in your opinion?



It totally depends how one trains and what they want out of the art of BJJ.  You can add throat grabs, eye gouges, groin strikes/grabs...ect.   It's also a popular sport and if one is training solely for sport, only a little on the fly improvisation of natural tendencies in a self defense situation is really needed for the most part, IMVHO.  Here in MI, if you are attacked outside right now where the ground is covered in ice, the fight is going on the ground.  Someone will slip and fall pretty easily which only gives advantage to any grapple art.  Heck, even brawlers would likely goto the ground, it's NASTY outside and below 0 F!




Yoshiyahu said:


> Would you say BJJ is more practical in getting a work out and building stamina that it is in self defence techniques?



No, but it will build stamina that is very different from the stamina type you get from striking styles.  I learned that the first time on the mat! LOL  Anaerobic stamina?  Is that the word I am looking for?  VERY important to sport or self defense.



Yoshiyahu said:


> How do you think a skilled TKD guy would fair against a Brazilian Jiujitsu guy in a street fight? In your humble opinion?



Badly in most cases.  The first or within the first few head kick attempts and he'd likely be taken right to the ground and hurt in most any situation or surface.  See any of the Gracie's In Action series to see what I mean.


----------



## KamonGuy2

Yoshiyahu said:


> Would you say BJJ is more of sport or self defense in your opinion?


It is both. 
Some people train purely for sport
Others train it purely for self defence

They often split the art into gi and no gi training with the no gi training more of a practical session

Things like arm bars etc, whilst effective, are dangerous to perform in the street because they take time and the best result by doing it is a snapped limb, which people can still fight on with
Whilst you are trying to get that kind of technique on a person, people can intervene (think crowded pub)

However, chokes and clinchwork is essential for martial artists in self defence situations - there are just some people who you will never be able to knock out (maybe because your hits aren't that hard yet, or because your opponent is three times your size!)




Yoshiyahu said:


> Would you say BJJ is more practical in getting a work out and building stamina that it is in self defence techniques??


Having traiend in quite a few arts, I can honestly say that BJJ is the most tiring and the best workout. Karate comes second and wing chun is third
Because in BJJ you are using your whole body to pivot, gain leverage, etc, you are exercising your whole body
Half an hour of continuous BJJ sparring would be enough for anyone 



Yoshiyahu said:


> How do you think a skilled TKD guy would fair against a Brazilian Jiujitsu guy in a street fight? In your humble opinion?


A TKD would have no chance. Like I said, TKD is not a self defence art. BJJ whilst used for sport, also has a very effective self defence side to it (ie you don't always have to go to ground)


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Please name some Korean and Japanese arts that are basic Self defense arts now used in sports?




Kamon Guy said:


> It is both.
> Some people train purely for sport
> Others train it purely for self defence
> 
> They often split the art into gi and no gi training with the no gi training more of a practical session
> 
> Things like arm bars etc, whilst effective, are dangerous to perform in the street because they take time and the best result by doing it is a snapped limb, which people can still fight on with
> Whilst you are trying to get that kind of technique on a person, people can intervene (think crowded pub)
> 
> However, chokes and clinchwork is essential for martial artists in self defence situations - there are just some people who you will never be able to knock out (maybe because your hits aren't that hard yet, or because your opponent is three times your size!)
> 
> 
> 
> Having traiend in quite a few arts, I can honestly say that BJJ is the most tiring and the best workout. Karate comes second and wing chun is third
> Because in BJJ you are using your whole body to pivot, gain leverage, etc, you are exercising your whole body
> Half an hour of continuous BJJ sparring would be enough for anyone
> 
> A TKD would have no chance. Like I said, TKD is not a self defence art. BJJ whilst used for sport, also has a very effective self defence side to it (ie you don't always have to go to ground)


----------



## JadecloudAlchemist

> Please name some Korean and Japanese arts that are basic Self defense arts now used in sports?


 
Just about every Japanese art is used in sport. Kendo,Karate,Judo,Jujutsu,Sumo,Kyudo,Naginatajutsu,some forms of Aikido.

You can read all about Japanese sports:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sport_in_Japan


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## Yoshiyahu

Which Japanese Arts would be consider a Self Defense Art?




JadecloudAlchemist said:


> Just about every Japanese art is used in sport. Kendo,Karate,Judo,Jujutsu,Sumo,Kyudo,Naginatajutsu,some forms of Aikido.
> 
> You can read all about Japanese sports:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sport_in_Japan


----------



## bs10927

Yoshiyahu said:


> Which Japanese Arts would be consider a Self Defense Art?




i thought all that Jade listed *are* fighting arts but also used in sport....


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## Yoshiyahu

Well He said that they were sports...He didnt clarify they were ever used as self defense?




bs10927 said:


> i thought all that Jade listed *are* fighting arts but also used in sport....


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## JadecloudAlchemist

> Which Japanese Arts would be consider a Self Defense Art?


 
I think all Japanese arts can be considered a self defense art because at one time they were used in actual combat.

I suppose Kendo and Naginatajutsu are common sport activites for youth.

Usually Naginata classes are for girls like junior high.

The term Goshin and Jissen come to mind when talking self defense in Japanese arts. Goshin meaning self defense and Jissen meaning real or reality hardcore something like that.

The Japanese view learning martial arts to strengthen your mind and spirit.

They think Americans are only interested in fighting. So the idea behind why Japanese practice martial arts is more strenghtening mind.body spirit,discipine then self defense. I can not speak for all Japanese or Americans only based on my experience.


----------



## seasoned

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> I think all Japanese arts can be considered a self defense art because at one time they were used in actual combat.
> 
> I suppose Kendo and Naginatajutsu are common sport activites for youth.
> 
> Usually Naginata classes are for girls like junior high.
> 
> The term Goshin and Jissen come to mind when talking self defense in Japanese arts. Goshin meaning self defense and Jissen meaning real or reality hardcore something like that.
> 
> The Japanese view learning martial arts to strengthen your mind and spirit.
> 
> They think Americans are only interested in fighting. So the idea behind why Japanese practice martial arts is more strenghtening mind.body spirit,discipine then self defense. I can not speak for all Japanese or Americans only based on my experience.


 
It seems that in the oriental culture spirituality and training the body for self defense went hand and hand. Americans separate the two, I think.


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## Yoshiyahu

Very interesting.


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## KamonGuy2

Yoshiyahu said:


> Please name some Korean and Japanese arts that are basic Self defense arts now used in sports?


 
I don't really understand your question? 

Are you asking for Korean/Japanese arts that are ONLY used in sports, or arts that are used in both self defence and sports

You get sport karate. but at its core is good self defence. A GOOD karate instructor will distinguish the difference between moves used for clicker (sport) tournaments and moves used for practical self defence

Aikido has many practical self defence techniques, but sadly the ones I have seen rely too much on a person grabbing you a certain way 
I once had a wing chun student who was an instructor of Aikido. I asked him to show me some concepts/moves and he asked me to grab his wrist. Then he told me I wasn't grabbing him right. It took about four attempts to get the right hold on him for a move to work. I wasn't being troublesome and was genuinally trying to assist. 

Obviously, no matter what art you train you will get people who are exceptionally good, but I just find that generally the best self defence arts are usually wing chun, BJJ, Muay Thai, karate, and if I've forgotten soem then I apologise

Also (and I haven't forgotten) boxing. A good boxer will know how to hit very very hard. The only reason I wouldn't classify it as being with one of the great self defence arts is that it does rely a lot on weight and size (ie a light boxer will have next to no chance against someone who weighs three times his weight). The same could be said for muay Thai, although there are a few moves that a lightweight MT guy could pull off that would topple a bigger guy


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## Yoshiyahu

I agree...To me Muay Thai, Karate and Wing Chun I feel are great Martial Defense.  I took Akido...As a Kid. But it wasn't much use. Now Judo had more use when I was in Junior High but not really. An in my high school days there was no use for grappling arts. Fights go to fast to try to tumble someone bigger than me to ground. So WC was a clear choice for me. Next would have been Karate or Boxing.







Kamon Guy said:


> I don't really understand your question?
> 
> Are you asking for Korean/Japanese arts that are ONLY used in sports, or arts that are used in both self defence and sports
> 
> You get sport karate. but at its core is good self defence. A GOOD karate instructor will distinguish the difference between moves used for clicker (sport) tournaments and moves used for practical self defence
> 
> Aikido has many practical self defence techniques, but sadly the ones I have seen rely too much on a person grabbing you a certain way
> I once had a wing chun student who was an instructor of Aikido. I asked him to show me some concepts/moves and he asked me to grab his wrist. Then he told me I wasn't grabbing him right. It took about four attempts to get the right hold on him for a move to work. I wasn't being troublesome and was genuinally trying to assist.
> 
> Obviously, no matter what art you train you will get people who are exceptionally good, but I just find that generally the best self defence arts are usually wing chun, BJJ, Muay Thai, karate, and if I've forgotten soem then I apologise
> 
> Also (and I haven't forgotten) boxing. A good boxer will know how to hit very very hard. The only reason I wouldn't classify it as being with one of the great self defence arts is that it does rely a lot on weight and size (ie a light boxer will have next to no chance against someone who weighs three times his weight). The same could be said for muay Thai, although there are a few moves that a lightweight MT guy could pull off that would topple a bigger guy


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## KamonGuy2

Yeah Judo is a good style, but still can be risky against a bigger opponent

I once got thrown by a Judo guy and dragged him down with me 

But again, certain aspects of the art can be very beneficial to whatever system you are studying


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## Yoshiyahu

I think if you use something like Judo along with Offensive art it can be beneficial.

Judo, Tai Chi, Wrestling, BJJ, Aikido and JiuJitsu are more defensive arts. Where Karate boxing and WC are more offensive and attacking arts.


Its kinda of hard to throw a guy who is throwing lighting fast punches trying to knock your head off?




Kamon Guy said:


> Yeah Judo is a good style, but still can be risky against a bigger opponent
> 
> I once got thrown by a Judo guy and dragged him down with me
> 
> But again, certain aspects of the art can be very beneficial to whatever system you are studying


----------



## dungeonworks

Yoshiyahu said:


> I think if you use something like Judo along with Offensive art it can be beneficial.
> 
> Judo, Tai Chi, Wrestling, BJJ, Aikido and JiuJitsu are more defensive arts. Where Karate boxing and WC are more offensive and attacking arts.
> 
> 
> Its kinda of hard to throw a guy who is throwing lighting fast punches trying to knock your head off?



It can be until one punch misses, he gets wrapped up and: slammed by a wrestler, thrown by Judoka, or hauled down by a BJJ player.  At this point it is all about who can force who's game on the other.


----------



## JadecloudAlchemist

> Its kinda of hard to throw a guy who is throwing lighting fast punches trying to knock your head off?


 
That is where timing and distancing take place and knowing how to clinch.

Once you are in a clinch you can work knees and then work on setting up your throw. Also if he is aiming for strikes to the face you can go for a takedown at his legs. Lots of nasty tricks you can use.


----------



## Si-Je

Yoshiyahu said:


> Please name some Korean and Japanese arts that are basic Self defense arts now used in sports?


 
I think I see what you mean. Tae Kwon Do (Tang Soo Do) would be Korean arts used in sport competition now. Japanese arts used in sport: Judo (olympic) Kendo, basic Karate (they compete mainly punching the chest not the face), Shoot fighting.
Some Korean SD arts not in sport (that I know of) Hapkido would be a good SD art, mean stuff. 
Japanese SD: Aikido would be a good SD art, but you'd have to train it for a while to get proficient with it. Aiki Ju-Jitsu (has all Judo throws, chokes, ground fighting, standing escapes, weapons, and striking very well rounded style. Samori class fighting style), Ninjitsu (If you can find the real deal, lol!), Kempo Karate (Okinawian) for SD, I don't know if they compete in sport, but I'm sure they do.
Many arts can be easily converted to sport competition.
Even WC/WT.


----------



## Eru IlÃºvatar

> Some Korean SD arts not in sport (that I know of) Hapkido would be a good SD art, mean stuff.


 
Hapkido is thought as a part of the TKD curiculum. At least I was thought that way not realy sure if it's so with other schools too though. We had to know elements of hapkido for each belt test and had to use them in a application. Mostly: a guy grabs you and you this and that.


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## Seeker

Yoshiyahu said:


> Its kinda of hard to throw a guy who is throwing lighting fast punches trying to knock your head off?


 
Not really, otherwise clinches would never happen in boxing nor MT.


----------



## Si-Je

Seeker said:


> Not really, otherwise clinches would never happen in boxing nor MT.


 
Boxing and MT utilize set patterns and combinations that allow an opponent to study the pattern and time the next strike.
WC/WT does not. It's more like "broken rythum" (I'm a music major, lol! WT/WC is all music to me. More like Jazz improvization than any other style of music  )

It's continious flowing from one strike to another using punches, knees, elbows, chops, forearm "shivers", palm striking, shoulder "bumps" or strikes, and kicking all flowing and simoltaneously attacking and defending.

Boxing and MT utilize 1.2.3. movements.
1. block or dodge as you move backwards
2. move forward and strike or kick
3. follow up with combonation

WT/WC combines these three moments into one motion. 

1. moving into attacker, punching, kicking, and deflecting at the same time, then flowing from there to the next strike on and on until opponent is finished. You never stop, you never go back, you never break contact with opponent to "regroup" and attempt another strategy.
This barrage of attack is extremely difficult to find the "timing" to shoot in for a clinch or takedown if done properly. For there is no break in time from one movement to the next. Once the WT/WC practitioner moves to defend or attack (each is the same movement and philosophy for they ARE the cause and result of the other-Lao Tzu) they never pause, or stop from one techniuqe to the next.
Kempo Karate in the more advanced levels do this alot too. With continious striking there is no readable combination to time your chance to shoot in. Only constant striking to the opponent's face, neck, knee, groin, eyes, temple, throat, ribs, kidneys, etc. on and on and on until the opponent is defeated.

If a stylist can take 5-25 multiple punches to the head (depending on the speed and skill of the WC/WT practitioner) and still manage to get in close enough to clinch or grapple then still most of the power of the takedown or clinch is negated and weakened, making the effectiveness of the throw or whatever less well,.. effective.
That is what Yoshi is meaning, I believe. When he states that it is hard to clinch or throw someone who is trying to knock your head off striking.


----------



## Seeker

Si-Je said:


> Boxing and MT utilize set patterns and combinations that allow an opponent to study the pattern and time the next strike.
> WC/WT does not. It's more like "broken rythum" (I'm a music major, lol! WT/WC is all music to me. More like Jazz improvization than any other style of music  )
> 
> It's continious flowing from one strike to another using punches, knees, elbows, chops, forearm "shivers", palm striking, shoulder "bumps" or strikes, and kicking all flowing and simoltaneously attacking and defending.
> 
> Boxing and MT utilize 1.2.3. movements.
> 1. block or dodge as you move backwards
> 2. move forward and strike or kick
> 3. follow up with combonation
> 
> WT/WC combines these three moments into one motion.
> 
> 1. moving into attacker, punching, kicking, and deflecting at the same time, then flowing from there to the next strike on and on until opponent is finished. You never stop, you never go back, you never break contact with opponent to "regroup" and attempt another strategy.
> This barrage of attack is extremely difficult to find the "timing" to shoot in for a clinch or takedown if done properly. For there is no break in time from one movement to the next. Once the WT/WC practitioner moves to defend or attack (each is the same movement and philosophy for they ARE the cause and result of the other-Lao Tzu) they never pause, or stop from one techniuqe to the next.
> Kempo Karate in the more advanced levels do this alot too. With continious striking there is no readable combination to time your chance to shoot in. Only constant striking to the opponent's face, neck, knee, groin, eyes, temple, throat, ribs, kidneys, etc. on and on and on until the opponent is defeated.
> 
> If a stylist can take 5-25 multiple punches to the head (depending on the speed and skill of the WC/WT practitioner) and still manage to get in close enough to clinch or grapple then still most of the power of the takedown or clinch is negated and weakened, making the effectiveness of the throw or whatever less well,.. effective.
> That is what Yoshi is meaning, I believe. When he states that it is hard to clinch or throw someone who is trying to knock your head off striking.


 
My fantasy was about the same.

I just had that vision of one of those WC demos where the WC guy makes his slick move and unloads this massive succession of 25 chain punches all landing on vital targets while his opponent is frozen in place and cannot move nor make any attempt at covering, swiming in, stepping offline, going for underhooks or dropping down into a single/double leg take down, etc. None of that.

When do I get to learn the stuff that allows me to do this? :vu:


----------



## KamonGuy2

Clinches are extremely common
I would say that around 70% of all streetfights inolve some sort of clinch, whether it be a person grabbing a t-shirt or a more defined clinch. 

The best thing o watch or programmes on TV where they show CCTV footage of nightclub brawls 
('Police, Camera, Action' or 'Bouncers'). Because people are so fuelled on aggression the natural reaction is to grab and rip and tear at your opponent, not to stand in an excellent stance and shoot out lightning fast punches. Admittedly that does happen from time to time (see the classic boxer vs happy slapper on youtube for example), but it is rare

My friend who is a sensei in karate (full contact karate) was done over in a nightclub once because the person came at him like a steam train and caught him off guard. Even though my friend was faster and more skilled, he wasn't ready for clinching and raw aggression

You also have to think about room. In formats such as boxing, you often train/fight in a ring giving you amples of space to move around. In a nightclub, even though the crowd often parts, you are still confined and bound to trip over peoples legs or be backed into/up against the bar

I'm glad to say that wing chun works exceptionally well in clinchwork situations - even better than boxing, because we can strike from that small distance, whereas boxers aren't as experienced at that (ie the ref has to seperate them in those situations)

Master Chan is a master at clinchwork, but this hasn't come from BJJ - it is wing chun that he utilizes to map, fold and use the clinch against the opponent

I am hoping that he does a clinchwork DVD in the near future because I have never seen anyone do anything like it
I mean, everyone does clinchwork, but it is all about breaking away from the clinch or 'getting out of' the clinch, which is a bad mentality

If you try to break out of a clinch, your opponent is also free to hit you or re-engage a grab. If, however, you leave the grab where it is and work round it in a relaxed way, your opponent will often not have a chance

For the UK guys - get down on a Monday to the Kamon Croydon class (in Surrey) You can come in and sit down, and Master Chan will answer any questions on this subject

I think after that, you will not dispute the need for clinchwork or basic grappling knowledge

Peace out


----------



## dungeonworks

Si-Je said:


> Boxing and MT utilize set patterns and combinations that allow an opponent to study the pattern and time the next strike.
> WC/WT does not. It's more like "broken rythum" (I'm a music major, lol! WT/WC is all music to me. More like Jazz improvization than any other style of music  )
> 
> It's continious flowing from one strike to another using punches, knees, elbows, chops, forearm "shivers", palm striking, shoulder "bumps" or strikes, and kicking all flowing and simoltaneously attacking and defending.
> 
> Boxing and MT utilize 1.2.3. movements.
> 1. block or dodge as you move backwards
> 2. move forward and strike or kick
> 3. follow up with combonation
> 
> WT/WC combines these three moments into one motion.
> 
> 1. moving into attacker, punching, kicking, and deflecting at the same time, then flowing from there to the next strike on and on until opponent is finished. You never stop, you never go back, you never break contact with opponent to "regroup" and attempt another strategy.
> This barrage of attack is extremely difficult to find the "timing" to shoot in for a clinch or takedown if done properly. For there is no break in time from one movement to the next. Once the WT/WC practitioner moves to defend or attack (each is the same movement and philosophy for they ARE the cause and result of the other-Lao Tzu) they never pause, or stop from one techniuqe to the next.
> Kempo Karate in the more advanced levels do this alot too. With continious striking there is no readable combination to time your chance to shoot in. Only constant striking to the opponent's face, neck, knee, groin, eyes, temple, throat, ribs, kidneys, etc. on and on and on until the opponent is defeated.
> 
> If a stylist can take 5-25 multiple punches to the head (depending on the speed and skill of the WC/WT practitioner) and still manage to get in close enough to clinch or grapple then still most of the power of the takedown or clinch is negated and weakened, making the effectiveness of the throw or whatever less well,.. effective.
> That is what Yoshi is meaning, I believe. When he states that it is hard to clinch or throw someone who is trying to knock your head off striking.



I agree with you to a point, but you are making an assumption that the boxer/MT fighter is aimlessly tossing out combinations in hopes something will hit.  This is inacurate.  There is a degree of sensitivity and judgement boxers and MT fighters use before the commit to such attacks and entirely dismisses the fact that they will poke and feel with smaller techniques such as jabs and fakes (body movement, punches, and or kicks).  If it were so simple, they would be easily dispatched, but it isn't so they aren't.  Wing Chun makes it easier to jam and befuddle a boxer or MT practitioner but is not always failsafe against such styles.  In otherwords, MT and boxing has some well enough fakes to "bait" others into their realm as well.  They do not throw the same comninations every time and are very able to change them up at will.


----------



## Steve

While western boxing has limited clinch work, striking from the clinch with knees, elbows and fists is a big part of Muay Thai, and as a result has worked its way into MMA competitions, as well.  You'll also often see foot stomps and kicks with the heel from within the clinch.  It's often referred to as "dirty boxing" but isn't really.  It's just fighting from the clinch. 

I'm not saying that WC is bad or doesn't include clinch fighting.  I'm simply pointing out that there are other tactics and disciplines also incorporating striking at the clinch range.


----------



## Si-Je

Seeker said:


> My fantasy was about the same.
> 
> I just had that vision of one of those WC demos where the WC guy makes his slick move and unloads this massive succession of 25 chain punches all landing on vital targets while his opponent is frozen in place and cannot move nor make any attempt at covering, swiming in, stepping offline, going for underhooks or dropping down into a single/double leg take down, etc. None of that.
> 
> When do I get to learn the stuff that allows me to do this? :vu:


 
Your funny! lol!
Demos are demos, training is different. Sparring is different.  You will learn to move with your opponent, no matter where they go, or what they try to do. 
A guy shoots into your legs or hips those vital spots are exposed by the very nature of the shoot in. The back of the neck, head, knee to the face, etc. Alot of those people in the demos don't move much because they learn really quick that if they do it just makes it worse and more painful for them.
We've had students come in from MMA and other arts, even grappling that love to shoot in on Sifu.  At the first couple of attempts they come in really hard and struggle and fight with everything they've got to get ahold of him, but after a couple of "sessions" of that, they ease up.  They find that the harder and faster they shoot in the harder they get hit.
Simple physics:
The inertia and velosity of Sifu's incoming punches are doubled by the incoming inertia and velosity of the attackers shoot in, takedown, clinch, or strike. Added by the mass and body weight of both Sifu and the Attacker.
Pow! and Ouch!
Inertia x mass = power  + the inertia x mass of Sifu's attack = double the power.


----------



## MJS

Si-Je said:


> Boxing and MT utilize set patterns and combinations that allow an opponent to study the pattern and time the next strike.
> WC/WT does not. It's more like "broken rythum" (I'm a music major, lol! WT/WC is all music to me. More like Jazz improvization than any other style of music  )


 
How much do you really know about boxing?  Yes, there are a typical set of punches that they use, ie: jab, cross, hook, upper cut, etc., however, there is are endless combos of those punches that can be put together.  I would say its very difficult to study every pattern and assume that you would know what would be coming next.


----------



## Si-Je

MJS said:


> How much do you really know about boxing? Yes, there are a typical set of punches that they use, ie: jab, cross, hook, upper cut, etc., however, there is are endless combos of those punches that can be put together. I would say its very difficult to study every pattern and assume that you would know what would be coming next.


 
Don't have to. We don't do combos. We don't allow combos to be completed. Different approach to fighting than most other styles.
WC/WT's not worried about studying what an opponent "might" do or what their combo looks like. You won't know anyway in the street no matter how much you crosstrain.
You go forward, engage, respond, deflect, strike, kick, attack their structure, follow through, flow, and don't anticipate anything.  
Simotaneously, no rythum, no combo, no set positions or preplaned format.
"do not anticipate the outcome of the engagement." Bruce Lee. 
Basic WC concepts, basic Tao.
By NOT anticipating, you are able to accept what comes and respond accordingly without over analyzing and thinking.  Reflexive. Reactive. The true origion of WC/WT's famous "speed". Shortest distance between two points taken in striking and kicking will make you faster even if the other opponent is physically faster than you.  If they take a "longer route" you will still get there faster.
Act with the intention to hit always no matter what the oponent does, and you WILL hit the opponent.


----------



## MJS

Si-Je said:


> Don't have to. We don't do combos. We don't allow combos to be completed. Different approach to fighting than most other styles.
> WC/WT's not worried about studying what an opponent "might" do or what their combo looks like. You won't know anyway in the street no matter how much you crosstrain.
> You go forward, engage, respond, deflect, strike, kick, attack their structure, follow through, flow, and don't anticipate anything.
> Simotaneously, no rythum, no combo, no set positions or preplaned format.
> "do not anticipate the outcome of the engagement." Bruce Lee.
> Basic WC concepts, basic Tao.
> By NOT anticipating, you are able to accept what comes and respond accordingly without over analyzing and thinking. Reflexive. Reactive. The true origion of WC/WT's famous "speed". Shortest distance between two points taken in striking and kicking will make you faster even if the other opponent is physically faster than you. If they take a "longer route" you will still get there faster.
> Act with the intention to hit always no matter what the oponent does, and you WILL hit the opponent.


 
You stated that boxers use set patterns.  I stated that is not true.  However, I do agree that we will not know the type of fighter we face until the fight begins to unfold.  On the other hand, once it unfolds, it should begin to be apparent what type of fighter you're facing.  Just another reason why I like to work with various people.


----------



## Si-Je

MJS said:


> You stated that boxers use set patterns. I stated that is not true. However, I do agree that we will not know the type of fighter we face until the fight begins to unfold. On the other hand, once it unfolds, it should begin to be apparent what type of fighter you're facing. Just another reason why I like to work with various people.


 
Working with as many different stylist is great, and I enjoy doing that as well.  
I've known several boxers that have very set and preferred patterns they use when they box, whether they realize it or not.  In fact isn't that exactly what a corner man is there to point out to a fighter in the ring?  To notice, reconize and tell their fighter the patterns the other boxer is falling into?
Well, many stylists fall into this in many arts, even WT/WC. It's just the goal not to do patterns, set combos, etc.
By the way, my dad taught me boxing as a kiddo from when he boxed in the U.S. Navy.  There was alot of set positions, and set techniques, and combos.  Combos for after you "block" or "cover" from a jab or hook, punch combos, pre set stance "combos" to bait and distract or confuse the opponent.
That's what he taught me, maybe they don't train boxing that way anymore.  But, everytime I watch a match, after about 5 minutes into the fight I can predict pretty well what each fighter will do. I can see the patterns they prefer and they telegraph alot to me. MMA is the same way too.  Although, they do get more creative because they can do more and use more technique.  (I think that's what I like best about MMA fighters, their ability to adapt on the fly and their creativity in their individual styles)  

I'm babbling, sorry.  lol!
anyways, WC don't anticipate the style, skill set, technique or intentions of the opponent.  Accept what comes, respond instictively and accordingly.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Very interesting and true...wow...i was just speaking about this. Yea. one can cross train in Muay Thai, Boxing and Tae Kwon Do. That won't prepare you for a karate fighter or other striker. Just because you know a little about MT Boxing and TKD doesn't make you ready to fight other strikers. It just gives you and idea of whats done in the styles you studied. But if your a yellow belt or green belt in karate and a black belt in TKD are you really ready and knowledgable enough to know what a Old stlye Karate guy is going to do who holds a 3rd degree black belt?
Yea if I study Muay Thai, Boxing and BJJ. Will I really be prepared and know how to defend against Japanese Jiujitsu master or a Judo master? wouldn't I have to study their art too an learn the basics.

I think the best way to be prepared to fight people of other styles is to spar with them alot. spar people of different skill sets and ranks from various styles. That way you have experience in adjusting and adapting your own prime art to what ever situtation you encounter...

I mean really. the whole idea to defeat a grappler you need to study grappling...An the same doesn't apply for strikers. With strikers most people say well you do this and that against kicker or boxer. But when it comes to grappling you need to study a grappling art?

1.So if your going to fight a Judo person do you need to cross train judo?

2.So if your going to fight a shoot wrestler do you need to cross train shoot wrestling?

3.So if your going to fight a Sambo fighter do you need to cross train Sambo?

4.So if your going to fight a greco roman wrestler do you need to cross train GReco wrestling??

Just a basic question please answer anybody?



Si-Je said:


> Don't have to. We don't do combos. We don't allow combos to be completed. Different approach to fighting than most other styles.
> 
> WC/WT's not worried about studying what an opponent "might" do or what their combo looks like. You won't know anyway in the street no matter how much you crosstrain.
> 
> You go forward, engage, respond, deflect, strike, kick, attack their structure, follow through, flow, and don't anticipate anything.
> Simotaneously, no rythum, no combo, no set positions or preplaned format.
> 
> "do not anticipate the outcome of the engagement." Bruce Lee.
> Basic WC concepts, basic Tao.
> 
> By NOT anticipating, you are able to accept what comes and respond accordingly without over analyzing and thinking. Reflexive. Reactive. The true origion of WC/WT's famous "speed". Shortest distance between two points taken in striking and kicking will make you faster even if the other opponent is physically faster than you. If they take a "longer route" you will still get there faster.
> 
> Act with the intention to hit always no matter what the oponent does, and you WILL hit the opponent.


----------



## MJS

Yoshiyahu said:


> Very interesting and true...wow...i was just speaking about this. Yea. one can cross train in Muay Thai, Boxing and Tae Kwon Do. That won't prepare you for a karate fighter or other striker. Just because you know a little about MT Boxing and TKD doesn't make you ready to fight other strikers. It just gives you and idea of whats done in the styles you studied. But if your a yellow belt or green belt in karate and a black belt in TKD are you really ready and knowledgable enough to know what a Old stlye Karate guy is going to do who holds a 3rd degree black belt?
> Yea if I study Muay Thai, Boxing and BJJ. Will I really be prepared and know how to defend against Japanese Jiujitsu master or a Judo master? wouldn't I have to study their art too an learn the basics.


 
Sigh..I had a long post prepared, but opted not to post it...why bother.  Sounds like you're attempting another strawman with this post.  



> I think the best way to be prepared to fight people of other styles is to spar with them alot. spar people of different skill sets and ranks from various styles. That way you have experience in adjusting and adapting your own prime art to what ever situtation you encounter...


 
Preach it baby, preach it!!  I guess you've missed the dozen or so times I've said the same thing.  



> I mean really. the whole idea to defeat a grappler you need to study grappling...An the same doesn't apply for strikers. With strikers most people say well you do this and that against kicker or boxer. But when it comes to grappling you need to study a grappling art?


 
What the hell are you talking about????  Look back to the first UFC.  Look at the one style fighters that fought grapplers.  How did they do?  



> 1.So if your going to fight a Judo person do you need to cross train judo?
> 
> 2.So if your going to fight a shoot wrestler do you need to cross train shoot wrestling?
> 
> 3.So if your going to fight a Sambo fighter do you need to cross train Sambo?
> 
> 4.So if your going to fight a greco roman wrestler do you need to cross train GReco wrestling??
> 
> Just a basic question please answer anybody?


 
Are you being serious here or just trolling??  Just a basic question, so please answer.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Thank you for your post..so true exactly what I mean. Most competive boxers do use set one two or 1,2,3 or even 1,2,3,4 combos. Really good boxers can pull 1,2,3,4,5 and sometimes 6 and 7 strike combos. I don't about more than that. But that same boxer will use other items in the street. If that same boxer is in the street he will us elbows,head butts, groin shots,push, grab back of the neck an punch the face, grab the head with weaker hand an smash the nose with the other hand. In the ring grabbing is not allowed in boxing competitions. But the bare handed boxer fights different in the street. There are even basic blocks some boxers might use along with a variation of pak sau. In the hood its called slap boxing. But its not taught much in the hood. My mother and older cousins share a little boxing with me as a kid. I picked up more as i got older. But boxing in the street encompasses much more than the rules you see in the ring. An often illegal moves not used in ring are allowed in the clinch in the street. Boxers also use take downs and grapplings and I even seen one boxer use a knee strike in street fight. 

But I disagree on some points. I have seen some boxers who have contious flow from punching to bobbing and weaving. But your right not many utilize flow anymore. They mostly do combos and back off. But that same boxer in a street fight will not use combos alone but flow contiously. Unless he can knock out the opponent.

As for gaining a clinch. If your fighting a guy who is use to hitting heavy bag weighing 200lbs a day, Punching a wall bag filled with iron shots, hitting a 70lb wooden man everyday.Kicking a tree along with a heavy bag. An the guy is loose, relax, calm as well as continously striking with the power to make a 70lbs wooden man shake off the floor with each block, move a heavy bag filled with sand in the air with each strike and kick and make a solid brick wall tremble from hitting a wall bag filled with shots. I think if he is punching your head or kidneys with out gaps or breaks it would be difficult to shoot in the clinch when his elbows or fist fly towards your chin,nose,throat and kidneys?

I could be wrong though.





Si-Je said:


> Boxing and MT utilize set patterns and combinations that allow an opponent to study the pattern and time the next strike.
> WC/WT does not. It's more like "broken rythum" (I'm a music major, lol! WT/WC is all music to me. More like Jazz improvization than any other style of music  )
> 
> It's continious flowing from one strike to another using punches, knees, elbows, chops, forearm "shivers", palm striking, shoulder "bumps" or strikes, and kicking all flowing and simoltaneously attacking and defending.
> 
> Boxing and MT utilize 1.2.3. movements.
> 1. block or dodge as you move backwards
> 2. move forward and strike or kick
> 3. follow up with combonation
> 
> WT/WC combines these three moments into one motion.
> 
> 1. moving into attacker, punching, kicking, and deflecting at the same time, then flowing from there to the next strike on and on until opponent is finished. You never stop, you never go back, you never break contact with opponent to "regroup" and attempt another strategy.
> This barrage of attack is extremely difficult to find the "timing" to shoot in for a clinch or takedown if done properly. For there is no break in time from one movement to the next. Once the WT/WC practitioner moves to defend or attack (each is the same movement and philosophy for they ARE the cause and result of the other-Lao Tzu) they never pause, or stop from one techniuqe to the next.
> Kempo Karate in the more advanced levels do this alot too. With continious striking there is no readable combination to time your chance to shoot in. Only constant striking to the opponent's face, neck, knee, groin, eyes, temple, throat, ribs, kidneys, etc. on and on and on until the opponent is defeated.
> 
> If a stylist can take 5-25 multiple punches to the head (depending on the speed and skill of the WC/WT practitioner) and still manage to get in close enough to clinch or grapple then still most of the power of the takedown or clinch is negated and weakened, making the effectiveness of the throw or whatever less well,.. effective.
> That is what Yoshi is meaning, I believe. When he states that it is hard to clinch or throw someone who is trying to knock your head off striking.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

I have a question? why do MMA guys usually train one grappling art and two or more striking arts?



MJS said:


> Sigh..I had a long post prepared, but opted not to post it...why bother. Sounds like you're attempting another strawman with this post.
> 
> 
> 
> Preach it baby, preach it!! I guess you've missed the dozen or so times I've said the same thing.
> 
> 
> 
> What the hell are you talking about???? Look back to the first UFC. Look at the one style fighters that fought grapplers. How did they do?
> 
> 
> 
> Are you being serious here or just trolling?? Just a basic question, so please answer.


----------



## dungeonworks

Yoshiyahu said:


> I have a question? why do MMA guys usually train one grappling art and two or more striking arts?



You got that backwards.  Most fighters study BJJ and wrestling for the ground work and rely on Muay Thai for stand up.  That is a broad generalization of the styles employed in modern MMA competition.  A perfect example of this type fighter would be welterweight champ Georges St. Pierre.  Although he came from Kyokushin Karate background, he has since stuck with the three styles mentioned...and made it work.


----------



## MJS

Yoshiyahu said:


> I have a question? why do MMA guys usually train one grappling art and two or more striking arts?


 
Dungeonworks summed it up.


----------



## Eru IlÃºvatar

> A perfect example of this type fighter would be welterweight champ Georges St. Pierre.


 
He's one of my favorite MMA fighters


----------



## Yoshiyahu

What three styles does Georges St. Pierre practice?



dungeonworks said:


> You got that backwards. Most fighters study BJJ and wrestling for the ground work and rely on Muay Thai for stand up. That is a broad generalization of the styles employed in modern MMA competition. A perfect example of this type fighter would be welterweight champ Georges St. Pierre. Although he came from Kyokushin Karate background, he has since stuck with the three styles mentioned...and made it work.


----------



## Steve

Yoshiyahu said:


> What three styles does Georges St. Pierre practice?


GSP started with a black belt in Kyokushin Karate, and has since earned a black belt in BJJ along with training western boxing, muay thai and wrestling.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Okay so he has

Three striking styles?
Two grappling styles?


More in striking than grappling...



stevebjj said:


> GSP started with a black belt in Kyokushin Karate, and has since earned a black belt in BJJ along with training western boxing, muay thai and wrestling.


----------



## MJS

Yoshiyahu said:


> Okay so he has
> 
> Three striking styles?
> Two grappling styles?
> 
> 
> More in striking than grappling...


 
And your point is??


----------



## Yoshiyahu

More study towards striking was my point?



MJS said:


> And your point is??


----------



## Steve

I franklt don't know for sure.  I threw out what I'm confident he trains in but be could work in anything.    

But I am sure that the line if reasoning troubles me a little.  I think too much emphasis is being given to counting styles.  It seems to me to be an oversimplification.  

Honestly, I'm not sure how useful it is to use GSP or any athlete of that caliber as the bar.  It woud be like using Bruce Lee as an example of the average WC student.  Both are/were far from average.


----------



## MJS

Yoshiyahu said:


> More study towards striking was my point?


 
Ok.  I was just wondering if you were leading up to anything else with that.  IE: striking is more important than grappling and proof is because GSP does x number of stand up arts vs x number of grappling.  

Now, if we look at someone like Chuck, we'll see primarily a stand up striker, however, he does have a grappling background, and IMO, uses it pretty effectively.  My point...without that, he'd most likely not have as much success defending against other grapplers.


----------



## dungeonworks

Yoshiyahu said:


> Okay so he has
> 
> Three striking styles?
> Two grappling styles?
> 
> 
> More in striking than grappling...



He started out Kyokushin Karate before MMA ever heard of the guy called GSP (Georges St. Pierre).  Their is a series on Spike channel that shows in depth footage and interviews with him, his trainers, and the same for his upcoming opponent BJ Penn.

*He presently trains MUAY THAI AT THE TRISTAR GYM, WRESTLING WITH CANADIAN OLYMPIC TEAM, and BRAZILLIAN JIUJITSU....2 GRAPPLING and ONE STRIKING ART.*

Now, in the past, yes, he like sooooo many other MMA pro's come from several arts and styles.  Styles do not mean diddly squat in MMA or on the street.

Please quit trying to load these questions in your feable attempts to twist others answers to fit what you want everyone to agree with.  It slows the Qi-Gong of the thread! LOL


----------



## Si-Je

I think ya'll are looking too much into Yoshi's questions.  He's just asking a question, don't be so defensive.  
I wonder sometimes why they train 2 or 3 striking styles and 2 or more "grappling" styles too. But, I guess it's to make sure they have everything covered in the ring.
Since their most likely to fight people with stronger backgrounds in many arts, i.e. judo, BJJ, JJJ, karate, MT, boxing, wrestling, etc.
I think though, and it is still a "theory" that WC could and would be able to handle it.  Still waiting for our "extra cash" to flow in to get Sifu hubbie's medical, and resgistration, and licenseing paid for to get him a ring match.  I'm really getting impatient! lol!


----------



## Steve

dungeonworks said:


> It slows the Qi-Gong of the thread! LOL


This truly made me laugh out loud.


----------



## MJS

Si-Je said:


> I think ya'll are looking too much into Yoshi's questions. He's just asking a question, don't be so defensive.


 
Looking too much??  Sorry, I don't think so.  What I do see are a) strawman arguments, b) contradiction, c) repeatedly asking the same question, in some way, in an attempt to discredit what we say and justify what he says.




> I wonder sometimes why they train 2 or 3 striking styles and 2 or more "grappling" styles too. But, I guess it's to make sure they have everything covered in the ring.
> Since their most likely to fight people with stronger backgrounds in many arts, i.e. judo, BJJ, JJJ, karate, MT, boxing, wrestling, etc.
> I think though, and it is still a "theory" that WC could and would be able to handle it.


 
So in other words...WC would be able to come out on top of all of those other arts?




> Still waiting for our "extra cash" to flow in to get Sifu hubbie's medical, and resgistration, and licenseing paid for to get him a ring match. I'm really getting impatient! lol!


 
IIRC, wasn't he supposed to have some match at your school with someone?  I thought I saw that somewhere in one of these threads.


----------



## Si-Je

The guy never showed.  As usual.
He teaches every monday, wensday, and saturday, is always there.
And yeah, WC principles can handle all those other styles. IMHO.  And in the experience of my Sifu. 

This is the very core of the thread. BJJ similariaties and contrasts to WC, and the "apparent" need to supplement WC with BJJ.

He askes the questions because he wants to hear your responses, he wants to know why and how you think.  You don't have to be so defensive about it.  If he's trying to make a point that just like everyone on this thread, as well as this forum. We're here to discuss and make our points, to share information, opinions, facts, and speculate about theory and application.


----------



## Eru IlÃºvatar

> I think though, and it is still a "theory" that WC could and would be able to handle it. Still waiting for our "extra cash" to flow in to get Sifu hubbie's medical, and resgistration, and licenseing paid for to get him a ring match. I'm really getting impatient! lol!


 
Lol me too! Since you say he will only use WC in the cage, can I ask you if he's considering to modify his WC for the cage? Even a little? And if, what does he intend to modify to adapt it to the cage? Could I ask you to PM me when a video is available? Would be grateful.


----------



## Si-Je

We will post the video on publicly and on YouTube.
He's not augmenting WC for the cage, just using more basic techniques same WC just not the nasty stuff. (eye gouging, groin shots, punching to the head and neck, etc.)
They allow enough in the "cage" to use most WC technique.


----------



## MJS

Si-Je said:


> The guy never showed. As usual.
> He teaches every monday, wensday, and saturday, is always there.


 
Hopefully something will work out. 




> And yeah, WC principles can handle all those other styles. IMHO. And in the experience of my Sifu.


 
So, here we see it again....WC being billed as the unbeatable, self defense art.  



> This is the very core of the thread. BJJ similariaties and contrasts to WC, and the "apparent" need to supplement WC with BJJ.


 
If you don't want to cross train, don't.  Its really that simple, and I'm wondering why this thread has gone on for this long.  People either want to do it or they don't.  



> He askes the questions because he wants to hear your responses, he wants to know why and how you think. You don't have to be so defensive about it. If he's trying to make a point that just like everyone on this thread, as well as this forum. We're here to discuss and make our points, to share information, opinions, facts, and speculate about theory and application.


 
And the reponses have been given....over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.  Show me something that is new here in this thread.  Its the same question asked, just worded slightly different.  And if you can't see that, if you can't see the strawman argument he's trying to make, then I really don't know what to tell you.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Well let me comment on WC being and unbeatable style...

First off all if fight for money in Thailand and you have been training in Muay Thai for like ten years and have plenty of experience of fighting various martial arts styles. Than your Muay Thai can handle every style thats out there. Of course someone with more skill than you can defeat you.

If you are skilled Karate guy who has fought both in the ring,cage,tournments and on street for ten years. An practice karate for twenty years than yes this guy can handle all styles no question about it. Now can he be beaten by someone with more skill yes...of course...But he can also win depending on strength,technique,speed,timing or just mere chance.


Now an extremly skilled WC guy who WC guy who has been training hard for six years. An he has the complete system and has also sparred many different fighters from different styles an also has been in numerous fights both one and one and five to one. This guy will be adept to handling every other style too. He doesn't need to cross train because he has refined his art an polished it with experience and combat. His refinements are found in combat. Now of course someone with more skill may be able to beat him from his own style or another style. But the main thing is if you train your art hard...test your art through combat. Then the qualifying statement!



> And yeah, WC principles can handle all those other styles. IMHO. And in the experience of my Sifu.


 


> So in other words...WC would be able to come out on top of all of those other arts?






> think though, and it is still a "theory" that WC could and would be able to handle it.


 
Now my Question...I my self have studied a little Judo and Aikido and I did some sparring with the Judo instructor son. But that was just kick boxing. 
So my training at first was two Grappling and one striking art. But then later on I started with Wing Chun. An also did a little hung gar later. Very little Hung gar and walking the circle from Bagua. Later on I started learning Tai Chi and started on Bagu Eight Palms form. But anyway my core is Wing Chun because I find it the most useful. 


But in either case as the years progress I have studied a little bit from more striking arts and had WC as my primary fighting style.

Now the issue is why does it seem that Striking arts outnumber the grappling arts. Most of MMA guys I hear talking they all say its BJJ and Muay thai with WC. Or Wrestling with MT and Boxing?

Why is it seem that MT boxing and WC are the major arts used in MMA and BJJ and Greco Wrestling are the main arts they used?


----------



## MJS

Yoshiyahu said:


> Well let me comment on WC being and unbeatable style...
> 
> First off all if fight for money in Thailand and you have been training in Muay Thai for like ten years and have plenty of experience of fighting various martial arts styles. Than your Muay Thai can handle every style thats out there. Of course someone with more skill than you can defeat you.
> 
> If you are skilled Karate guy who has fought both in the ring,cage,tournments and on street for ten years. An practice karate for twenty years than yes this guy can handle all styles no question about it. Now can he be beaten by someone with more skill yes...of course...But he can also win depending on strength,technique,speed,timing or just mere chance.
> 
> 
> Now an extremly skilled WC guy who WC guy who has been training hard for six years. An he has the complete system and has also sparred many different fighters from different styles an also has been in numerous fights both one and one and five to one. This guy will be adept to handling every other style too. He doesn't need to cross train because he has refined his art an polished it with experience and combat. His refinements are found in combat. Now of course someone with more skill may be able to beat him from his own style or another style. But the main thing is if you train your art hard...test your art through combat. Then the qualifying statement!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now my Question...I my self have studied a little Judo and Aikido and I did some sparring with the Judo instructor son. But that was just kick boxing.
> So my training at first was two Grappling and one striking art. But then later on I started with Wing Chun. An also did a little hung gar later. Very little Hung gar and walking the circle from Bagua. Later on I started learning Tai Chi and started on Bagu Eight Palms form. But anyway my core is Wing Chun because I find it the most useful.
> 
> 
> But in either case as the years progress I have studied a little bit from more striking arts and had WC as my primary fighting style.
> 
> Now the issue is why does it seem that Striking arts outnumber the grappling arts. Most of MMA guys I hear talking they all say its BJJ and Muay thai with WC. Or Wrestling with MT and Boxing?
> 
> Why is it seem that MT boxing and WC are the major arts used in MMA and BJJ and Greco Wrestling are the main arts they used?


 
Sigh...where to start.  First, you seem to be under the assumption that a BB means you're unbeatable.  I beg to differ.  Keep in mind, that you had guys who devoted years to 1 art, get taken down and submitted by Royce in the UFC.  

As for WC being used in the ring....I've never heard of any fighter using it, of course I may be wrong.  Its usually the mix thats already been listed.  

Said it before, I'll say it again...if you want to cross train, fine, do it. If you dont then don't.  End of story.


----------



## Steve

MJS said:


> Sigh...where to start.  First, you seem to be under the assumption that a BB means you're unbeatable.  I beg to differ.  Keep in mind, that you had guys who devoted years to 1 art, get taken down and submitted by Royce in the UFC.


I'll also add that you have a guy in Matt Hughes who took down and defeated Royce Gracie largely because Royce refused to admit that he needed more than BJJ to defeat a well rounded fighter.  The whole thing came full circle.


----------



## Si-Je

MJS said:


> Sigh...where to start. First, you seem to be under the assumption that a BB means you're unbeatable. I beg to differ. Keep in mind, that you had guys who devoted years to 1 art, get taken down and submitted by Royce in the UFC.
> 
> As for WC being used in the ring....I've never heard of any fighter using it, of course I may be wrong. Its usually the mix thats already been listed.
> 
> Said it before, I'll say it again...if you want to cross train, fine, do it. If you dont then don't. End of story.


 
Wing Tsun in the ring: Sifu Grados of NY's fighter right here:




 
Seal the Deal again in the ring:


----------



## Steve

Si-Je said:


> Wing Tsun in the ring: Sifu Grados of NY's fighter right here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seal the Deal again in the ring:


This is interesting.  Once again, it goes back to how one trains.  One of the main guys on the rival website that you guys don't like to hear about on this one actually trains and instructs kung fu, and has been successful with it in the ring.  

I guess I don't know enough about WC to be able to identify it in these videos.  The first one looked like a good sprawl and power shots from the top.  The second was pretty short...  not a lot of time to see it.  What am I missing?


----------



## MJS

Great clips! Thanks for posting those! 

In the first clip, the only part that looked WC to me, was the beginning.  After that, it seemed to me that it was sprawling/grappling positions.  The 2nd clip, obviously alot shorter, had more of a WC feel to it.

Out of curiosity, does anyone know that guys training background?  Is he just pure WC or has he crosstrained?  If I had to guess, I'd say he has a grappling/wrestling background.


----------



## jarrod

this thread is still going?  amazing.  

fyi, i still like grappling.

jf


----------



## Eru IlÃºvatar

> Wing Tsun in the ring: Sifu Grados of NY's fighter right here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seal the Deal again in the ring:


 
Hey Si-Je, check this guy out: Wing Tsun in the ring: 



 
Sorry, I couldn't find a shorter video of this fight  But check his other fights too. He's an mma fighter(and not a bad one at all) who traines WC and tai chi among other things. In one of the youtube videos I've seen him do tai chi forms and WC. I've seen him do bong saos in the cage too.

And oh yea, being an mma fighter he probably had to combine groundfightind with WC so this is sort of on topic 

Oh and check out his home page http://www.samiberik.com/hunsite.html. He's got a cool song playing about WC lol


----------



## dungeonworks

Yoshiyahu said:


> Well let me comment on WC being and unbeatable style...
> 
> First off all if fight for money in Thailand and you have been training in Muay Thai for like ten years and have plenty of experience of fighting various martial arts styles. Than your Muay Thai can handle every style thats out there. Of course someone with more skill than you can defeat you.
> 
> If you are skilled Karate guy who has fought both in the ring,cage,tournments and on street for ten years. An practice karate for twenty years than yes this guy can handle all styles no question about it. Now can he be beaten by someone with more skill yes...of course...But he can also win depending on strength,technique,speed,timing or just mere chance.
> 
> 
> Now an extremly skilled WC guy who WC guy who has been training hard for six years. An he has the complete system and has also sparred many different fighters from different styles an also has been in numerous fights both one and one and five to one. This guy will be adept to handling every other style too. He doesn't need to cross train because he has refined his art an polished it with experience and combat. His refinements are found in combat. Now of course someone with more skill may be able to beat him from his own style or another style. But the main thing is if you train your art hard...test your art through combat. Then the qualifying statement!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now my Question...I my self have studied a little Judo and Aikido and I did some sparring with the Judo instructor son. But that was just kick boxing.
> So my training at first was two Grappling and one striking art. But then later on I started with Wing Chun. An also did a little hung gar later. Very little Hung gar and walking the circle from Bagua. Later on I started learning Tai Chi and started on Bagu Eight Palms form. But anyway my core is Wing Chun because I find it the most useful.
> 
> 
> But in either case as the years progress I have studied a little bit from more striking arts and had WC as my primary fighting style.
> 
> Now the issue is why does it seem that Striking arts outnumber the grappling arts. Most of MMA guys I hear talking they all say its BJJ and Muay thai with WC. Or Wrestling with MT and Boxing?
> 
> *Why is it seem that MT boxing and WC are the major arts used in MMA and BJJ and Greco Wrestling are the main arts they used?*




Wing Chun is *far Far FAR FAR  *MT, Greco, and wrestling yes, but Wing Chun???

I still do not understand why/how you think each fighter is a sole stylist of one single art and lacks the capability to utilize anything aside that inside each art.  In Kung Fu movies and Video games, yes, you have many fighters like that (some can even throw balls of Chi!!!:BSmeter but in the modern world, you are going to have someone that likely has dabbled in one art or more before settling in one style or someone that cross trains in many.


----------



## dungeonworks

Si-Je said:


> Wing Tsun in the ring: Sifu Grados of NY's fighter right here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seal the Deal again in the ring:




In the first video, where was the Wing Chun(legit question, NOT TROLLING!!!)???  I seen a very tense and hard/unrelaxed fighter use sprawl-n-brawl boxing with knees up the center, the only WC that I seen, but (that could be my WC inexperience).  He was using a 50-50 stance and reeling waaaay back before throwing punches instead of structure being the source of his power.  He finished the fight not too unlike anyother MMA guy ground and pounding his way to a TKO.  To me, he looked like a powerful guy with a decent sprawl, heavy hands, and a knee to the head of an opponant always helps when they are on the ground, which is usually illegal in American MMA. 

In the second one, I see him starting in a WC advancing stance, start to straight blast and finish with boxing.  one-two punches into the straight blast he is using boxing footwork (for the most part) and reeling way back with his arms for power.  Where was the Wing Chun?  IMVHO, he looks like an MMA guy now training WC.  Again, not trolling, I am asking where the Wing Chun is as I may have missed it due to my inexperience.


----------



## dungeonworks

jarrod said:


> this thread is still going?  amazing.
> 
> fyi, i still like grappling.
> 
> jf



TROLL!!!  (j/k!  Meant sarcastically)


----------



## dungeonworks

MJS said:


> Great clips! Thanks for posting those!
> 
> In the first clip, the only part that looked WC to me, was the beginning.  After that, it seemed to me that it was sprawling/grappling positions.  The 2nd clip, obviously alot shorter, had more of a WC feel to it.
> 
> Out of curiosity, does anyone know that guys training background?  Is he just pure WC or has he crosstrained?  If I had to guess, I'd say he has a grappling/wrestling background.




Hmmm....it's odd that I read this after watching those videos and came up with a similar conclusion.  The 18 second KO victim also looked like a 155 lb fighter that forgot to cut down from 250 lbs!  Dude would be better if he cut off that weight and fought lighter.


----------



## KamonGuy2

Can I just point out that Grados students cross train (ie are taught all areas of martial arts) 
If you type grappling and grados into youtube, one of his top students actually talks about the need to improve his ground game

I think the whole thing has moved into the 'wing chun needs BJJ' area which is not the point. We are focusing on BJJ too much

Wing chun needs a ground game. If you are happy 'anti grapling' then fine, but your martial art technique will be STRONGER with a good art such as BJJ, Judo or catch wrestling. Rather than trying to make your art 'fit' into an unknown area, learn the basics of an art that is the best at that area

Wing chun is extremely good upright, but it is not flawless

There will be times when you are dragged to the floor or fall to the floor etc. That is undesputable. People are thinking very 2 dimensionally - two fighters at either side of the ring. Of course in that situation it will be hard for a wing chun person to be taken down. I am talking in crowded bars in a streetfight, where there are obstacles, people etc. I have lost count the number of times I have gone to ground unwillingly - and I have good footing and good stancework

Why paint a picture in black and white when you can add other colours?


----------



## MJS

Kamon Guy said:


> Can I just point out that Grados students cross train (ie are taught all areas of martial arts)
> If you type grappling and grados into youtube, one of his top students actually talks about the need to improve his ground game
> 
> I think the whole thing has moved into the 'wing chun needs BJJ' area which is not the point. We are focusing on BJJ too much
> 
> Wing chun needs a ground game. If you are happy 'anti grapling' then fine, but your martial art technique will be STRONGER with a good art such as BJJ, Judo or catch wrestling. Rather than trying to make your art 'fit' into an unknown area, learn the basics of an art that is the best at that area
> 
> Wing chun is extremely good upright, but it is not flawless
> 
> There will be times when you are dragged to the floor or fall to the floor etc. That is undesputable. People are thinking very 2 dimensionally - two fighters at either side of the ring. Of course in that situation it will be hard for a wing chun person to be taken down. I am talking in crowded bars in a streetfight, where there are obstacles, people etc. I have lost count the number of times I have gone to ground unwillingly - and I have good footing and good stancework
> 
> Why paint a picture in black and white when you can add other colours?


 
Good points, and yes, the discussion has taken the BJJ vs. WC debate, however, there've been many times where I've pointed to any grappling art.  I guess those posts have gone un-noticed by a few people.  For the record, I'm not talking about you.


----------



## Si-Je

Oh, I just don't agree. But, each to their own.  
I'll stick with the anti-grappling.  I searched grappling and Sifu Grados and didn't find anything about his student stating that he needs "ground game". Found this cool video though:




 
I really wish I'd found WC years ago, it would have saved me alot of money, trouble, and time in training.  

If you want to train BJJ with your WT/WC, that's all a personal choice.  If one just doesn't feel "well rounded" without it, then that's a personal decision.  But, don't let folks that promote another art for their own benefit (I'm talking about teachers, professional instructors makeing a living off teaching, etc.) convince you that you just absolutely NEED it.  I just encourage folks to make their decision based on how they feel and think about it not on what is popular, or trendy, or what many people are doing for whatever reason.
But, that's just me, my personality, and may not fit everyone else.  I've never been very politiacall correct, trendy, even fashionable (I've still got my metal biker jacket from High school! And wear it often! lol!), and I just hate pop culture, so I'm just a little more rebellious than some.
But, if you've come to that ultimate conclusion that your gonna mix BJJ with your WC/WT, then there you go. Do what you think is best for you.  Doesn't mean I'll agree with you, and that doesn't mean I'm right or wrong.  Just opinion.
But, I'm not going to be convinced that that choice just needs to be made by me, that my fighting technique needs something other than WC/WT.  I've got a different point of view, had different experiences, and have different knowledge.  
Each to their own.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

I think crosstraining in iron palm or tiger claws would beneficial to WC?


What about you?


----------



## Si-Je

Yoshiyahu said:


> I think crosstraining in iron palm or tiger claws would beneficial to WC?
> 
> 
> What about you?


 
could be very good.  
How about eagle claw? lol!
I had an eagle claw guy snatch my wrist and forearm at the speed of light in the most painful way one time!  He was just a little old man, didn't know he'd move that fast. I told him I trained WC (not knowing about the eagle claw and WC thing. lol) and he just snatched me! ouch!
That's pretty neat stuff too.


----------



## dungeonworks

Yoshiyahu said:


> I think crosstraining in iron palm or tiger claws would beneficial to WC?
> 
> 
> What about you?




I prefer Maple Plank Whitefish or Pork Loin myself.


----------



## dungeonworks

Si-Je said:


> could be very good.
> How about eagle claw? lol!
> I had an eagle claw guy snatch my wrist and forearm at the speed of light in the most painful way one time!  He was just a little old man, didn't know he'd move that fast. I told him I trained WC (not knowing about the eagle claw and WC thing. lol) and he just snatched me! ouch!
> That's pretty neat stuff too.



Is there a connection between Eagle Claw and Bak Mei somehow somewhere and Wing Chun?  Does either relate to Wing Chun?  I saw Eddie Chong mentions Bak Mei on his site but never heard of any Wing Chun relation but some of the videos look like video I seen on Eagle Claw.


----------



## MJS

Si-Je said:


> Oh, I just don't agree. But, each to their own.
> I'll stick with the anti-grappling. I searched grappling and Sifu Grados and didn't find anything about his student stating that he needs "ground game". Found this cool video though:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I really wish I'd found WC years ago, it would have saved me alot of money, trouble, and time in training.
> 
> If you want to train BJJ with your WT/WC, that's all a personal choice. If one just doesn't feel "well rounded" without it, then that's a personal decision. But, don't let folks that promote another art for their own benefit (I'm talking about teachers, professional instructors makeing a living off teaching, etc.) convince you that you just absolutely NEED it. I just encourage folks to make their decision based on how they feel and think about it not on what is popular, or trendy, or what many people are doing for whatever reason.
> But, that's just me, my personality, and may not fit everyone else. I've never been very politiacall correct, trendy, even fashionable (I've still got my metal biker jacket from High school! And wear it often! lol!), and I just hate pop culture, so I'm just a little more rebellious than some.
> But, if you've come to that ultimate conclusion that your gonna mix BJJ with your WC/WT, then there you go. Do what you think is best for you. Doesn't mean I'll agree with you, and that doesn't mean I'm right or wrong. Just opinion.
> But, I'm not going to be convinced that that choice just needs to be made by me, that my fighting technique needs something other than WC/WT. I've got a different point of view, had different experiences, and have different knowledge.
> Each to their own.


 
Tell me...in this clip, how much of this is WC anti grappling?


----------



## KamonGuy2

Si-Je said:


> Oh, I just don't agree. But, each to their own.
> I'll stick with the anti-grappling. I searched grappling and Sifu Grados and didn't find anything about his student stating that he needs "ground game". Found this cool video though:


 
It is a muscly black guy - I think it is under 'Grados cage student'
He basically says that he won a fight by submission and yet still has a lot of groundwork to do



Si-Je said:


> I really wish I'd found WC years ago, it would have saved me alot of money, trouble, and time in training.
> 
> If you want to train BJJ with your WT/WC, that's all a personal choice. If one just doesn't feel "well rounded" without it, then that's a personal decision. But, don't let folks that promote another art for their own benefit (I'm talking about teachers, professional instructors makeing a living off teaching, etc.) convince you that you just absolutely NEED it. I just encourage folks to make their decision based on how they feel and think about it not on what is popular, or trendy, or what many people are doing for whatever reason.


At Kamon it is done in a very fair way. The class is often divided near the end by Kevin Chan into those who want to stay in one side of the room an work on a bit of technical stuff (chi sao, lok sao) and thoe who want to work on the other side of the room with light sparring
Not everyone enjoys hitting people or getting hit so they have to be eased into it (otherwise people just get scared away). The same is with grappling. We hold seminars regularly for those who want to do it. Indeed, there are many 'old school' thinkers who are adamant they won't get taken down. They get embarrassed when I take them down with ease



Si-Je said:


> But, that's just me, my personality, and may not fit everyone else. I've never been very politiacall correct, trendy, even fashionable (I've still got my metal biker jacket from High school! And wear it often! lol!), and I just hate pop culture, so I'm just a little more rebellious than some.
> But, if you've come to that ultimate conclusion that your gonna mix BJJ with your WC/WT, then there you go. Do what you think is best for you. Doesn't mean I'll agree with you, and that doesn't mean I'm right or wrong. Just opinion.
> But, I'm not going to be convinced that that choice just needs to be made by me, that my fighting technique needs something other than WC/WT. I've got a different point of view, had different experiences, and have different knowledge.
> Each to their own.


People again are making the mistake of focusing on BJJ. The point is that you need SOMETHING for when you do go to ground. And you will go to ground at some point in your life. Whether its by tripping over, being thrown over, being dragged down or being knocked to the ground

If you are on the ground and you have a really good spring kick (a kick from the floor) then great. If you know how to grapple then great. If you are a really good puncher when you're on the floor then great. The point is that you do need something that works and works well for when you are in that position

I can tell you now that Kevin Chan's stance is one of the best I have ever seen. So good that he easily stops me (who is three times his bodyweight)pushing him. He would be one of the hardest people to take to the floor, and yet he trains and promotes grappling arts. He dosn't need to - he could make lots of money by keeping to just wing chun. Indeed he has lost students who were too afraid to grapple or didn't like physical contact. 

As I have always said, people forget that whateer art you cross train in, it will only improve your knowledge experience and often skill in the martial arts world


----------



## dungeonworks

Thanks Kamon.  At least a handful of people "get" what this thread was meant to be about, 21 pages of posting ago....instead of trying to derail it many times by turning it into WC vs BJJ or trying to discuss wether Catfish style is better than Llama style or Earthworm is compatible with Sea Urchin....


----------



## KamonGuy2

dungeonworks said:


> Thanks Kamon. At least a handful of people "get" what this thread was meant to be about, 21 pages of posting ago....instead of trying to derail it many times by turning it into WC vs BJJ or trying to discuss wether Catfish style is better than Llama style or Earthworm is compatible with Sea Urchin....


 
Or Pirates vs Ninjas - ooo arggghhhh matey


----------



## Eru IlÃºvatar

Ninjas would definately win...


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Not alll branches of Wing Chun practice Eagle claw techniques. Some do. 

Some don't...

But Eagle claw is best use on the throat in my opinion....wow...




Si-Je said:


> could be very good.
> How about eagle claw? lol!
> I had an eagle claw guy snatch my wrist and forearm at the speed of light in the most painful way one time! He was just a little old man, didn't know he'd move that fast. I told him I trained WC (not knowing about the eagle claw and WC thing. lol) and he just snatched me! ouch!
> That's pretty neat stuff too.


----------



## Si-Je

dungeonworks said:


> Is there a connection between Eagle Claw and Bak Mei somehow somewhere and Wing Chun? Does either relate to Wing Chun? I saw Eddie Chong mentions Bak Mei on his site but never heard of any Wing Chun relation but some of the videos look like video I seen on Eagle Claw.


 
There may be. All I know is that Eagle Claw and Wing Chun have fought to the death and hated eachother for years. They used to fight on the rooftops in challenge matches all the time (may still they do?)
They could have "stolen" from eachother because of all the fighting with one another. That would make sence, know your enemy.

To MJS: the "sprawl" is not unique to BJJ or MMA. Chinese wrestling does something like this, JJJ we did variants of it, Zapota does it, etc...
The way he pins the guys head with the knees as he punches the ribs is akin to anti-grappling (only you'd chainpunch the back of the head and neck. He's following the rules of the sport by punching the sides of the head.)
The way he's always working to get back to his feet is true to anti-grappling concepts and intention.

I just found another video of him wrestling a guy in a ring. Don't know what that is about, guess he was competing in a wrestling match. He never hits the guy. bummer. painful.
But, until I can find a better example in the ring, he'll have to do. 

Here's a WT guy in the yellow shorts. 




 
Love the Russians! The guy in the Green shirt is VT, and fights what looks like a "non-compliant" MMA/MT style attacker. Doesn't get taken down. But...
VT dude needs that Dai Sau, he gets hit with hook punch EVERY time! I like the spinning back kick that led to a takedown. very nice. Make Si-Je happy. 




 
I like this one too. Tell me if you train like this you can't handle the "ring"? And yes, WT/WC has head and neck "throws and takedowns".
The "sleeper choke" or rear pull back choke is not origional to BJJ, grappling or MMA. (why they call it the "rear naked choke" I don't know, not sure if I really want to either. ) 
It's been around for a loooooooog time.  They use some anti-grappling in here too. What you MMA guys like to call "ground and pound." lol! That's exactly what it is.


----------



## KamonGuy2

Can I just point out that Emin Bosteppi is trained in BJJ

Point being that Bosteppi is an advocate/creator of 'anti grappling' but the anti - grappling stuff has stemmed from BJJ, Judo and street training/experience


----------



## MJS

Kamon Guy said:


> Can I just point out that Emin Bosteppi is trained in BJJ
> 
> Point being that Bosteppi is an advocate/creator of 'anti grappling' but the anti - grappling stuff has stemmed from BJJ, Judo and street training/experience


 
Question for you.  Am I safe to assume that there is 'anti grappling' in other WC groups aside from Emins, or is this something just limited to Emin?


----------



## MJS

Si-Je said:


> To MJS: the "sprawl" is not unique to BJJ or MMA. Chinese wrestling does something like this, JJJ we did variants of it, Zapota does it, etc...
> The way he pins the guys head with the knees as he punches the ribs is akin to anti-grappling (only you'd chainpunch the back of the head and neck. He's following the rules of the sport by punching the sides of the head.)
> The way he's always working to get back to his feet is true to anti-grappling concepts and intention.


 
I never said that it was limited to BJJ, however, you just listed a few grappling arts yourself, so in essance, you're proving my point for me....that much of the ground stuff that we see, is derived from some sort of grappling art.  You will also notice, or maybe not, seeing that I've had to repeat myself more than a few times, that I've mentioned other grappling arts other than BJJ.  You seem to harp on that, even though I've mentioned Judo, Sambo and Wrestling.  

I've also commented that the 'anti grappling' is not limited to WC either.  The 'dirty fighting' that you and I have talked about in this thread, is used in many arts.  If we stop and think about it, if we look at the word 'anti' is means something that is against.  So, the use of that is to avoid actually grappling.  So you're using methods to avoid the takedown, methods to avoid a submission, etc.  Watch Chuck Liddell.  Amazing how he avoids the takedown.  Watch the UFC fight with Maurice Smith and Mark Coleman.  Amazing how Smith was not submitted and frustrated the hell out of Coleman.  Both fighters, Chuck and Maurice, have ground experience.  They're using their grappling knowledge (anti grappling) to avoid the ground and/or a submission.  Its really no different than when I use a Kenpo defense to avoid the grappling attack.  

I also think that this is pretty interesting.  Hmm..looks like Boztepe is not against cross training.  He lists TKD, Shotokan, MT, boxing, Turkish freestyle wrestling and Escrima.  



> I just found another video of him wrestling a guy in a ring. Don't know what that is about, guess he was competing in a wrestling match. He never hits the guy. bummer. painful.
> But, until I can find a better example in the ring, he'll have to do.
> 
> Here's a WT guy in the yellow shorts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Love the Russians! The guy in the Green shirt is VT, and fights what looks like a "non-compliant" MMA/MT style attacker. Doesn't get taken down. But...
> VT dude needs that Dai Sau, he gets hit with hook punch EVERY time! I like the spinning back kick that led to a takedown. very nice. Make Si-Je happy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I like this one too. Tell me if you train like this you can't handle the "ring"? And yes, WT/WC has head and neck "throws and takedowns".
> The "sleeper choke" or rear pull back choke is not origional to BJJ, grappling or MMA. (why they call it the "rear naked choke" I don't know, not sure if I really want to either. )
> It's been around for a loooooooog time.  They use some anti-grappling in here too. What you MMA guys like to call "ground and pound." lol! That's exactly what it is.


 
Interesting clips.


----------



## Si-Je

You still just don't understand what anti-grappling is.
You don't grapple, you don't wrestle the opponent. That would be grappling.
I found this video today, it shows anti-grappling really well.




 
As for Emin "cross-training", he's been in MA for years.  He studied turkish wrestling (well, he's turkish, makes sense.) TKD, Boxing, but those were at different times in his MA training.  His self defense is soley based on WT and Escrima, says so in the very wikipedia article you just posted. As for BJJ training, he's said he trains with people that study BJJ.  Now do you really think he actually signed up for BJJ classes at some BJJ dojo? With all the history he has with those guys? lol! That would be fun to see!  

Here's some guys training to get out of head locks and armbars. Sensitivity training rolling on the floor with the head locks.




 
This one he punches the guy while he's on his back. Learn to punch from a short range.  Has some different takedown defenses using stance, abduction, and footwork.  cool video!




 
teaching you how to defend aganst the "clinch" or front bear hug, pre-emptive strike.  They clinch they eat an elbow or two.   You don't "clinch" them back, you don't wrestle them back, you strike, you flow, you re-direct. You MMA/BJJ guys can have the underhook position, I want my arms on top so I can elbow/strike the opponent.  I'm not looking to hug them back.  anti-grappling.  From the underhook position you can't strike the head or much of anything. close quarters fighting. anti-grappling, striking at grappling range.




 
If you want to use BJJ or grappling at this range, that's your cup of tea. I take a striking art, and this flows with and complements my training in WT/WC better than using BJJ. I guess most people don't stay in WC/WT long enough to learn this range, I don't know.  I've been studying for what? 3-4 years now and am just getting into this range for striking.  (but, I had a pregnancy so a year off training) so, 2-3 years in WT/WC and getting into the good stuff and striking in grappling range.
You can add BJJ to your WC/WT fighting style.  I like the anti-grappling.


----------



## MJS

Si-Je said:


> You still just don't understand what anti-grappling is.
> You don't grapple, you don't wrestle the opponent. That would be grappling.


 
And you still don't seem to understand that just because I talk about a grappling art, does not mean that in a real fight, I'd spend time looking to roll and trying to find a submission. I've said it before, yet you seem to miss it. The idea of working with a grappler, for me, is to better my Kenpo defenses against a grappler. As I've said many times before, if you look at my defense, it'll still look Kenpo, not BJJ. If I do end up on the ground, my goal is to do what I need to, to get back to my feet. Again, just because I crosstrain in BJJ, does not mean I'm turning it into a BJJ match. I would do just what you see in that clip....you find yourself in the mount...instead of looking for that armlock, punch, kick, stomp, elbow...whatever...and get back up. 

Really, I don't know what the issue is here. Not quite sure why you are not getting this.






> As for Emin "cross-training", he's been in MA for years. He studied turkish wrestling (well, he's turkish, makes sense.) TKD, Boxing, but those were at different times in his MA training. His self defense is soley based on WT and Escrima, says so in the very wikipedia article you just posted. As for BJJ training, he's said he trains with people that study BJJ. Now do you really think he actually signed up for BJJ classes at some BJJ dojo? With all the history he has with those guys? lol! That would be fun to see!


 
Fact of the matter is, is that he still crosstrained. He still looked at other arts. Of course, if he didn't find some value in the Escrima, why would he keep training and teaching it? Obviously he sees some value in it, as far as the weapons work goes. As for the BJJ...I never said that he joined a school. Man, you're still missing my point. He, like I, works with BJJ people. He does it probably to improve his 'anti grappling' and I do it to improve my Kenpo takedown/grappling techniques. Its the same thing. For the record, I haven't been to my BJJ gym in quite some time, yet I still get together with guys that grapple and train. 



> Here's some guys training to get out of head locks and armbars. Sensitivity training rolling on the floor with the head locks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This one he punches the guy while he's on his back. Learn to punch from a short range. Has some different takedown defenses using stance, abduction, and footwork. cool video!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> teaching you how to defend aganst the "clinch" or front bear hug, pre-emptive strike. They clinch they eat an elbow or two.  You don't "clinch" them back, you don't wrestle them back, you strike, you flow, you re-direct. You MMA/BJJ guys can have the underhook position, I want my arms on top so I can elbow/strike the opponent. I'm not looking to hug them back. anti-grappling. From the underhook position you can't strike the head or much of anything. close quarters fighting. anti-grappling, striking at grappling range.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you want to use BJJ or grappling at this range, that's your cup of tea. I take a striking art, and this flows with and complements my training in WT/WC better than using BJJ. I guess most people don't stay in WC/WT long enough to learn this range, I don't know. I've been studying for what? 3-4 years now and am just getting into this range for striking. (but, I had a pregnancy so a year off training) so, 2-3 years in WT/WC and getting into the good stuff and striking in grappling range.
> You can add BJJ to your WC/WT fighting style. I like the anti-grappling.


 
Still missing my point. And really I don't know why, because at this point, it seems like you and I are more on the same page than it seems, yet I still think you're confusing what I'm saying. I simply crosstrain/reference to better my stand up art of Kenpo. Do I make time to just grapple? Sure. But, when I spar with my Kenpo teacher, we gear up and go at it...hard, with contact. He'll try to come in and clinch and I'll put the Kenpo principles to use, as well as use elbows, knees, etc. There are times when, for the sake of the training, I'll let him get me in the bear hug. Knees, elbows...you name it, it is all coming out.  

I'm doing the exact same thing that you're suggesting. You're using your WC and I'm using my Kenpo...thats the only difference.  

I'll have someone put me in the sidemount. I'll look for ways to use Kenpo. Never said it was easy, but I try. I may fall back on the BJJ escape for a moment, then its right back to the Kenpo. 

Please, when you're reading this, take the time to really read and understand what I'm saying. Like I said, we are more on the same page than it seems.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Anti Grappling or Chin Na or what ever else you want to call it has always been apart of Wing Chun. Remember the early Wing Chun fighters fought various styles and people. So they always came up against wrestlers. I have posted some fights between wrestlers on here in the pass. So Wing Chun even before Yip Man has always included techniques for wrestlers and grapplers. In fact WC contains some grappling. We call it Judo(Take Downs) and Chin Na(Wrist and Arm Locks). Anyway the WC terms are different but I sharing words you all know about. But Wing Chun has always included counter to going to the ground before I was born.

But many people have studied other arts before they come to WC so many people have ground experience even before coming to WC. Which could be said about the five elders who created WC. Some wrestling or grappling was probably including then too.


----------



## Nolerama

Yoshiyahu, could you come by the gym and show us some of these techniques? I'm really interested in getting another perspective on anti grappling.


----------



## Si-Je

Oh, MJS, I understand why your doing what your doing, and I understand that you train against other stylists to improve your Kempo.  I understand you like to study BJJ to add to your fighting knowledge.
I agree with half of what your doing.
I agree with training against or with other stylists.  I just don't prefer crosstraining.
Done, there.  That's all.
Each to their own.  
I just found some cool anti-grappling (whatever you want to call it, we just call it WC ground fighting because the name anti-grappling just riles people all up.  As I've learned by chatting on this board.   Better to make the PC fupa's on a chat board than with a student.)
And I wanted to share.  These weren't online until recently, or I just couldn't find them.  Most of these are from Germany, and such and the words "anti-grappling" in search on youtube won't bring them up.
But, that be what their doing.
This is my preference when it comes to ground fighting.  And these guys train this stuff on the hard floor to prepare you for the street. ouch.


----------



## MJS

Si-Je said:


> Oh, MJS, I understand why your doing what your doing, and I understand that you train against other stylists to improve your Kempo. I understand you like to study BJJ to add to your fighting knowledge.
> I agree with half of what your doing.
> I agree with training against or with other stylists. I just don't prefer crosstraining.
> Done, there. That's all.
> Each to their own.


 
I do what I do for a number of reasons.  Like you, what we do works for us.  I enjoy learning.   I am in no rush for anything.  I'm not a rank whore.  When it comes, it comes.  Some arts, I'm just interested in training and learning and have no desire to test for rank.  If I can take something from someone or from an art, and make my skills better, I'm going to do it, and IMHO, we'd be crazy not to.  But hey, if someone doesn't want to, thats their loss, my gain. 





> I just found some cool anti-grappling (whatever you want to call it, we just call it WC ground fighting because the name anti-grappling just riles people all up. As I've learned by chatting on this board.  Better to make the PC fupa's on a chat board than with a student.)
> And I wanted to share. These weren't online until recently, or I just couldn't find them. Most of these are from Germany, and such and the words "anti-grappling" in search on youtube won't bring them up.
> But, that be what their doing.
> This is my preference when it comes to ground fighting. And these guys train this stuff on the hard floor to prepare you for the street. ouch.


 
The term doesn't rile me up..lol.  It just amazes me, how we can have people pretty much agreeing on something, yet someone always finds a way to twist something or totally miss the point of whats being said.  Oh well, that happens on forums.  Its hard to always type and hope that the people reading will comprehend whats being said.  As far as the clips go...I enjoyed them.  When I have a bit more time, I plan on watching them again.  Like I said, the last few posts seem to find us agreeing, but unfortunately, I still don't think you're seeing that.  

Man, 20+ pages and its still a round and round debate.  If this thread would only die.....


----------



## Si-Je

I think we do that alot! lol!
We argue but we're saying the same thing, just a different way. Just have a different approach to explaining it.
Communication is such an art, and communicating in this medium takes some doin' too. 
You can't hear the inflection, or tone, so sometimes major points in a conversation are missed, or misintrepreted.
The emot's help, but I find that they end up covering my entire post! lol!

As for rank, I've never been big on that.  I like WT/WC because it barely has a ranking system.  No belts. 
I love MA and like learning and training new stuff from new arts too.  But, my big "obession" is WC/WT right now.  lol!
I've kinda explored alot of the other stuff years ago when I was younger.  I'd love to learn Capoerta, but, I'm not flexable like I was at 18.  So that's probably out.  But, I still think it's cool. I like JJJ and Judo still, but working for a living doing crappy work gave me a lower back injury, so that's pretty much out for me too.  That's okay, I've done it before now, it's just time for me to do other style.  We are attracted to arts that fit us and our limitations, strengths, mindsetts, and philosophies.


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## Yoshiyahu

Most definitely...I havent been yet...because I need to invest in better mouth piece...the two i got for walmart don't fit correctly. But I am coming...I didnt want to waste my free class an not have everything so i could spar with some of you all...


I havent forgot....been lazy lately...with the weather and colds...lol...




Nolerama said:


> Yoshiyahu, could you come by the gym and show us some of these techniques? I'm really interested in getting another perspective on anti grappling.


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## KamonGuy2

MJS is making some very good points which seem to be falling on deaf ears. 

If I go and train with someone who does Judo and teaches me Judo, I am training Judo

If Emin trained with people who did BJJ and learnt BJJ from them then that is really no different from going to a school and doing BJJ classes
My BJJ training is 30% classwork, 70% training with my friend who is a purple belt

Grappling is grappling. It is no good disguising it as anti grappling or chin na. Chin na is not wing chun. People assert that it is part of wing chun. It is not. No more than escrima is part of wing chun and yet people often include it in their system

Anti-grappling concepts come from BJJ and Judo, simple as that. 

In a real life scenario you may not do an arm bar or triangle choke purely because your opponents friends can kick you whilst you are in that position. But there are many important aspects in BJJ that are essential for street confrontation. 

Sije you seem very sure of yourself and your ability not to get taken down. So I offer you this friendly challenge. If you are ever in the UK, stop by my school and I'll try to take you down and you can use your anti grappling. If I don't get you to the floor I'll buy you a chocolate bar.

When you think of the logistics of a 25 stone guy charging in at a 10 stone person, do you really think that the 10 stone person is going to resist being picked up and dumped to the floor or mowed down?

Seriously?


----------



## Hagakure

dungeonworks said:


> The above link it to a video with a great camera angle my point is based from....that point being that BJJ and WC/T can easily flow together. They both are designed for the smaller fighter to be a step more equal to a larger and likely stronger opponent. This video shows a simple sweep by Rener Gracie to off balance and reverse position from an attacker that has you fully mounted. This technique here has trapping (not WC/T, but not all that different is the intent of the trap), not just with hands but legs as well.
> 
> In my opinion, I think BJJ would be a great addition to Wing Chun/Tsun and not all that difficult for the 'Chunner to grasp whilst staying to the 'Chun principles in most cases.


 
My former Wing Chun sifu combines both of these arts very well I believe. He's studied Wing Chun for around 20 years, and has over the last 10 or so incorporated BJJ very nicely. When in a Wing Chun class with him, he only ever touched on the Wing Chun, (that's what he was being paid for) but he was open enough to occassionally suggest "BJJ moves" in some circumstances.


----------



## MJS

Kamon Guy said:


> MJS is making some very good points which seem to be falling on deaf ears.
> 
> If I go and train with someone who does Judo and teaches me Judo, I am training Judo
> 
> If Emin trained with people who did BJJ and learnt BJJ from them then that is really no different from going to a school and doing BJJ classes
> My BJJ training is 30% classwork, 70% training with my friend who is a purple belt
> 
> Grappling is grappling. It is no good disguising it as anti grappling or chin na. Chin na is not wing chun. People assert that it is part of wing chun. It is not. No more than escrima is part of wing chun and yet people often include it in their system
> 
> Anti-grappling concepts come from BJJ and Judo, simple as that.
> 
> In a real life scenario you may not do an arm bar or triangle choke purely because your opponents friends can kick you whilst you are in that position. But there are many important aspects in BJJ that are essential for street confrontation.
> 
> Sije you seem very sure of yourself and your ability not to get taken down. So I offer you this friendly challenge. If you are ever in the UK, stop by my school and I'll try to take you down and you can use your anti grappling. If I don't get you to the floor I'll buy you a chocolate bar.
> 
> When you think of the logistics of a 25 stone guy charging in at a 10 stone person, do you really think that the 10 stone person is going to resist being picked up and dumped to the floor or mowed down?
> 
> Seriously?


 
Thanks.   I think its safe to say that we're all passionate about the arts that we study.  Myself, I like to give credit, where credit is due.  In other words, if something is Arnis or BJJ, I don't try to mislead someone into thinking that its Kenpo.  While I do try to use my base art, I don't have any issues with admitting that it may not have as good an asnwer as BJJ.  So, while I try to stick to Kenpo, if I was doing a takedown defense, if things start to go south, I have no issues with switching to BJJ.  

I don't understand why people are in this mindset that they can look outside the box, and that if Master so and so said it'll work, then it must.  I wish that people would humble themselves a bit and open their eyes to the fact that sometimes, it necessary to admit that A is lacking so we may need to look at B for the solution.  As I said in a recent post here, if BJJ is what it takes to get me out of the jam, because Kenpo isn't working, who the hell cares.  If it works I'm going to use it. 

As you said, there are many aspects from BJJ that can be applied standing.  People hear BJJ and right away, assume that it must be done on the ground.  That IMO, shows the lack of understanding.  There are a few things that can be done from an upright position.  May need to modify it slightly, but it'll still work. 

As I also pointed out in another post, if we look at some of the top MMA guys today, such as Chuck, we'll see a wonderful display of him avoiding a takedown. He's using concepts from grappling to aid him.  And as far as people saying that they'll never go down....well, must be nice to be able to predict the outcome of things.  I mean, I'm sure people never thought they'd get taken down by Royce, yet thats exactly where they landed.  

If plan A fails, we better have a plan B, C, D, and E to fall back on.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

http://www.kungfulifestyle.com/

Takedowns, Grappling and anti take downs are apart of wing chun...check out the link above...

Anyway...if your intent is take someone to ground then eventually you might accomplish that. If there goal is to get off the floor quickly then they probably will. If there goal is to knock you out before you can take them down. Then they probably will..The issue is you have to practice practice practice...Someone doing take downs every week is going to have an advantage on someone doing anti take downs once a month. An vice versa...Someone sparring wrestlers,strikers and grapplers everyday will have an advantage over someone who only spars people of there style once a week. But this is my opinion. I don't spar every day yet...So I am merely speaking from my own view point of were I want to be. I want to spar atleast five times a week if possible...

Thats my goal.



Kamon Guy said:


> MJS is making some very good points which seem to be falling on deaf ears.
> 
> If I go and train with someone who does Judo and teaches me Judo, I am training Judo
> 
> If Emin trained with people who did BJJ and learnt BJJ from them then that is really no different from going to a school and doing BJJ classes
> My BJJ training is 30% classwork, 70% training with my friend who is a purple belt
> 
> Grappling is grappling. It is no good disguising it as anti grappling or chin na. Chin na is not wing chun. People assert that it is part of wing chun. It is not. No more than escrima is part of wing chun and yet people often include it in their system
> 
> Anti-grappling concepts come from BJJ and Judo, simple as that.
> 
> In a real life scenario you may not do an arm bar or triangle choke purely because your opponents friends can kick you whilst you are in that position. But there are many important aspects in BJJ that are essential for street confrontation.
> 
> Sije you seem very sure of yourself and your ability not to get taken down. So I offer you this friendly challenge. If you are ever in the UK, stop by my school and I'll try to take you down and you can use your anti grappling. If I don't get you to the floor I'll buy you a chocolate bar.
> 
> When you think of the logistics of a 25 stone guy charging in at a 10 stone person, do you really think that the 10 stone person is going to resist being picked up and dumped to the floor or mowed down?
> 
> Seriously?


----------



## Eru IlÃºvatar

Thats a very smart way of looking at things in my opinion.


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## Si-Je

Kamon Guy. You and many grapplers always seem to make the same assumption that WC'ers are saying "well never be taken to the ground" because of focus on takedown defense, rooting, and abduction. This is not what I have EVER said.
Sure a grappler may take me down, and you know what? I'll probably allow it and not fight the takedown. That would go against WC principles to fight strength with strength.
If it can be thwarted with simple rooting while punching their head off great, if it can be re-directed by using WC/WT takedown defense then groovy. If not, then you go with it.
But, once on the ground my goals in fighting are the same as in standing. I want to punch, knee, elbow, kick, etc. I use chi sau, sensitivity, entire body, flow, and re-direction of the opponent's force.
I do NOT grab the grappler, I do not wrestler the wrestler, I do not resist against the "joint locks" of the BJJ stylist. I still focus on striking and deflection, and getting up off the ground. You flow with, you re-direct.

If you look at WT ground fighting technique and try to compare it to grappling you'll miss the entire technique. It is a style all to it's own, and is not comparable to grappling. It uses different techniques and different principles. When you work your legs on the ground like you do chi sau with your arms, you'll get it.
But, many people see this stuff online in videos and they can't see past the nose on their face. It's something you really have to feel to understand, just like anything else in WC/WT.

And you know? So what if Sifu Emin studied BJJ and other grappling arts. I take that for what it's worth. He's done the research and work on the anti-grappling, so I don't need to waste money going to another school or training another style from the ground up.
Sure, I'll train with BJJ, grappling, and wrestling guys as much as possible, but I'm not paying dues at their clubs. lol! And this is great training. For rarely do I get to use anti-grappling on someone that fights with the grapplers stiffness, use of brute strength, and mentality. Because as soon as a student comes in that takes that stuff and they get exposed to the anti-grappling they quickly change styles and stop wrestling altogether. 

Even the kid we trained that was ON the wrestling team completely stopped using his wrestling in class. And he used the anti-grappling on his wrestling teammates to test it out further. And, guess what? He loved the stuff.
But, like I said, until you work with it you'll not understand it at all. It's like explaining every nuance and movement in chi sau in text online.
I could write a book and understaning would still be lost.

Take what you want, train how you want, crosstrain whatever you feel you need to do. I'm good. I'll just stick with what I'm being taught. It's been proven before my very eyes several times. So, I'm convinced. 

p.s. chin na has been apart of WC forever.  Oh, and if I ever get to the UK and you can't take me down they you'll owe me a pint! lol!


----------



## jarrod

Si-Je said:


> For rarely do I get to use anti-grappling on someone that fights with the grapplers stiffness, use of brute strength, and mentality.


 
statements like this are really insulting, & it also lets me know that you really don't even have a rudimentary understanding of grappling.  i know that my school as well as many others i've attended emphasize fluidity of motion & technique over strength.  that's what the "ju" in "jujitsu" means, fyi.  

i know your mind is made up & that's fine, i just post these bits here & there so that lurkers aren't mis-informed.

carry on.

jf


----------



## Eru IlÃºvatar

This is getting ridiculous. 22pages and as MJS noted you seem to be speaking the same thing. 

I think the point that Kamon was trying to make was that most WC focuses on close-quarter stand up fighting. Some WC schools have also implemented anti-grapling to the curiculum(as Boztepe for example) and at my school we did groundfighting according to WC principals too for example. But the point is that allthough WC has principals and concepts, that in my opinion, could be applyed to virtualy anything, the WC curiculum in *most *schools teaches you only how to deal with bridging and close quarter combat. Now, as we all agreed groundfighting is an important aspect of fighting. The question now is how to approach it/how to best train for it. All that people here are saying is that training arts that are in some examples much older than WC and have specialised in groundfighting for all those hundreds of year have some very useful things to offer in the area of groundfighting. Now, I haven't trained any groundfighting art in particular but I wouldn't be suprised if some had a very WC approach to fighting. Afterall, as we said before, inteligent principals such as in WC can be found in many other arts. Especialy the ones that work. Now even if the groundfighting art you would hypotheticly go train isn't completely to your liking I'm sure that once you realy understand WC you can adapt those techniques to your WC way of thinking. For example if BJJ teaches you how to get out of a mess such as when a guy is mounted on your back and then does an armbar, I'm sure it's not such a big problem to adapt that technique so that when you get out of that mess with a good BJJ technique(which would probably be WC in principal anyway) you do thoat strikes and elbows to the face instead of the armbar. As you (or was it your hubbie?) said before; other groundfighting arts have helped you quite a bit to understand the WC approach to groundfighting better.

All I'm saying is that in my case for example we kind of had to look at every situation on the ground and think about what technique in groundfighting would be the msot WC approach to the situation. We didn't realy have a groundfighting curiculum that we could look at. Now an art that specialises in groundfighting, would in my opinion help greatly. And as I said, if it works, it probably is WC(more or less) anyway!

As for the Ebmas groundfighting; from what I trained of it and seen of it it looks fantastic and like something it would realy work! We even tryed it on trained graplers and it worked. One thing that bothers me tho is that this anti-grapling techniques in *most* cases assume that you'll be lying there on the ground and the grappler will come at you from afar. Or that he will try to take you down from far away instead of from trappying range for example while throwing a few missguiding punches first. I just think that when you end up on the ground for some reason you'll probably have that guy on top of you right away (having you in a screwed situation) and not comming at you from 2 meters away. Now when you're allaeady on the ground in some random screwed up situation all that grapling, BJJ training and ground sensitivity would sure be helpful in my opinion.

It's like saying; no need for a Karate guy to train WC sensitivity, WC trapping, close quarter combat or WC in general as after a Karate guy traines for 25 years his techniques will probably look like WC anyway. Now wouldn't have been helpful if that Karate guy just took WC for 5 years and train on a curiculum that focuses on that kind of stuff instead of in most cases getting there all by himself. Same thing goes for groundfighting arts. They specialise in that kind of stuff instead of most WC schools that don't. Now, Si-Je, you're saying that your school has a great grapling/anti-grapling curiculum allready but as I understand it it's in a huge way thatnks to you Sifus training in grapling arts. I bet if he hadnt your anti-grapling would have sucked  Same goes for Boztepe(he trained arts that specialise in groundfighting)

I wanted to say a few other things but this is getting to long as it is allready so I'm gonna stop now.


----------



## Eru IlÃºvatar

> i know that my school as well as many others i've attended emphasize fluidity of motion & technique over strength. that's what the "ju" in "jujitsu" means, fyi.
> 
> i know your mind is made up & that's fine, i just post these bits here & there so that lurkers aren't mis-informed.
> 
> carry on.
> 
> jf


 
Ha, you see! Sounds very WC-ish to me.


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## Si-Je

jarrod said:


> statements like this are really insulting, & it also lets me know that you really don't even have a rudimentary understanding of grappling. i know that my school as well as many others i've attended emphasize fluidity of motion & technique over strength. that's what the "ju" in "jujitsu" means, fyi.
> 
> i know your mind is made up & that's fine, i just post these bits here & there so that lurkers aren't mis-informed.
> 
> carry on.
> 
> jf


 
Ju-Jitsu means "gentle art". As the japanese translation goes. I've got plenty of background in "grappling" dear. If three years isn't enough for you then what is?


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## Steve

Si-Je said:


> Ju-Jitsu means "gentle art". As the japanese translation goes. I've got plenty of background in "grappling" dear. If three years isn't enough for you then what is?


And once again, you've completely missed the point, arguing semantics rather than thinking about the substance.


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## jarrod

Si-Je said:


> Ju-Jitsu means "gentle art". As the japanese translation goes. I've got plenty of background in "grappling" dear. If three years isn't enough for you then what is?


 
three years in one of the hundreds of styles of jujitsu, which is only one of hundreds of styles of grappling, tells me you don't have even a rudimentary knowledge of grappling.

jf


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## dungeonworks

jarrod said:


> statements like this are really insulting, & it also lets me know that you really don't even have a rudimentary understanding of grappling.  i know that my school as well as many others i've attended emphasize fluidity of motion & technique over strength.  that's what the "ju" in "jujitsu" means, fyi.
> 
> i know your mind is made up & that's fine, i just post these bits here & there so that lurkers aren't mis-informed.
> 
> carry on.
> 
> jf



I think she described my grappling in her earlier post. LOL  They must grapple much differently in Si-Je's area because the guys I used to roll with would barely be breathing much heavier than at rest while I sucked wind like I was dying!  

Si-Je, BJJ guys are all about efficiency and leverage over strength.  Please see the first 5 UFC's for various references.


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## Si-Je

Sifu showed me how to get out of a standing clinch with your back up against a wall using Chun Kiu technique. A little pivot and keeping your arms on top (no underhooking) and palm striking the opponent's sid eof the head.  Worked beautifully.
It does seem that alot of anit-grappling technique does focus on "preventative" measures focusing on keeping the opponent away from afar.
But, we train doing chi sau on our backs while the opponent is in a mount position or between the legs too.  This helps you stay out of armbars and to get out of them too.
Any ju-jitsu stylist if allowed to "lock out" on you your in big trouble and your chances of getting out at that point are slim. But even when I trained JJJ our counters for getting out of holds were largely "preventative" too. Not hardly did they ever teach you how to escape from a fully braced and locked out joint lock. 
But, what Sifu's been showing me uses tan sau to get out of joint locks that art "locked out" that have you in a "submissive" position already.  This has blown my mind.  Years of training to "submit" when the joint is compromised rather than be broken has been and still is hard to fight against. But the more I train it the more natural it is to get out of those positions.  You just have to re-train your thinking, the body will follow the mind every time.
I can't explain it in text. It's too weird. But the fact that I can now escape a full on koto gashie from a standing position without jumping over my whole arm is just amazing to me!
The fact that I can escape the all-time BJJ favorite armbar on the ground is even more awesome! Even after they have you totally flexed. Tan Sau, foreward force and corkscrew the body and your out. 
Others like the butterfly guard and the other BJJ grappling guard, I love the WC "guard" (as I call it) for it's simply WC basic stance with abduction.  You do this while on your back with an opponent between your legs and their not getting into strike, grapple, choke, or armbar you.  Simple as that, I've done it on purple belts.  They just can't "pass the guard". Unless they try to go to the side then you "leg chi sau" comes into play.
So, instead of locking my ankles around the guys waiste, I dig my knees into their torso and put my feet shoulder width apart, not touching them, just like when your standing only your feet are in the air.  From here you roll them, kick, and are "in guard". 
If they try to pry the knees apart (which they always do when they find they can't use their body weight to break through) then their clearly not able to attack you.  you hit them, their hands are busy.  If not, so what? You flow with your legs, torso, and arms. your arms are free to defend, attack, or whatever you need just like when standing. You roll them over with your legs.
If their too heavy, (or a good wrestler and root under you) you plant those feet at their hips and kick back, or put one foot on their knee (that's on the floor) and the other on the hip.  Kick and twist towards the knee side and voila! they roll just great, and your able to get do that WC situp while chainpunching (the ladies in my WC cardio class loved that move!  Really gives you a workout).


----------



## Steve

dungeonworks said:


> I think she described my grappling in her earlier post. LOL They must grapple much differently in Si-Je's area because the guys I used to roll with would barely be breathing much heavier than at rest while I sucked wind like I was dying!
> 
> Si-Je, BJJ guys are all about efficiency and leverage over strength. Please see the first 5 UFC's for various references.


I think it's important to note here that individuals will have varying degrees of skill.  Dungeonworks touches on this.  I'm better than I was as a white belt.  I use much less strength than I used to.  I try to stay relaxed.  It's what we strive for. I'm not as good at it as some.  I'm better than others.  I have a long way to go.  

Just as someone who trains WC will improve.  You can't walk into a WC school and just magically fight like Bruce Lee, but you might not know it listening to the comments in this forum.  Whenever Si-Je in particular speaks about WC, it's from the position of ideal circumstances.  It's never "I" can do X, Y, or Z using my Wing Chun.  Rather, "Wing Chun" can do "X, Y, or Z" or in some cases, "My Sifu can do X, Y, and Z."   

On the flip side, whenever grappling is brought up, it's from the worst case scenario:  grapplers grunt, have hairy knuckles and only know how to use their strength.    

I'm not saying that Si-Je's WC is weak or anything like that.  I'm saying that if we're to have a useful comparison of "grappling" and "anti-grappling" that you have to consider grappling and anti-grappling at a similar skill level, be that expert or beginner.  You can't compare beginner level grappling to advanced anti-grappling and expect to come to any useful conclusion.


----------



## MJS

jarrod said:


> statements like this are really insulting, & it also lets me know that you really don't even have a rudimentary understanding of grappling. i know that my school as well as many others i've attended emphasize fluidity of motion & technique over strength. that's what the "ju" in "jujitsu" means, fyi.
> 
> i know your mind is made up & that's fine, i just post these bits here & there so that lurkers aren't mis-informed.
> 
> carry on.
> 
> jf


 
Yup, this is the point that I've been trying to make all along.  I find it soooo amusing how people come on here and say that grappling is all about strength, that it won't work for a smaller person....yet, I posted numerous links to prove that a smaller person CAN do it.  Guess those went un-noticed, just like everything else.

Good post though.  2 thumbs up bro!


----------



## MJS

Si-Je said:


> Ju-Jitsu means "gentle art". As the japanese translation goes. I've got plenty of background in "grappling" dear. If three years isn't enough for you then what is?


 
Could have fooled me.  Interestingly enough, there're people on here, who I'd bet have more time than that, yet you're still arguing with them.


----------



## MJS

dungeonworks said:


> I think she described my grappling in her earlier post. LOL They must grapple much differently in Si-Je's area because the guys I used to roll with would barely be breathing much heavier than at rest while I sucked wind like I was dying!
> 
> Si-Je, BJJ guys are all about efficiency and leverage over strength. Please see the first 5 UFC's for various references.


 
Yup, more posts that solidify what I was trying to say.  I can relate to what you said above though....so many times I'd find myself on the bottom, struggling, and the top guy, all relaxed, felt like 1,000 lbs. LOL!


----------



## Si-Je

Just posting and talking about WC groundfighting technique. Giving personal experiences to folks who are interested. Gave examples of what I felt from other BJJ guys, wrestlers (whom I have a harder time with)  

But a particular group of folks keep assuming that I've never ever trained or worked with stylists of other arts, especially grapplers and MMA guys, boxers, etc. Or that I've got any knowledge in any other art than WC/WT.
Sigh. Whatever. I've trained MA since I was 10. I like, know stuff. lol!
But, I've got different views than some if not many. That works out okay for me. This is a great way to learn about the collective opinion and consciousness of martial artists from all over the world.  And exposure to them in a way I'd never get.  And that's great for when I'm talking to prospective students.  I already know more of what they think about fighting, what they think works, why, and what questions they will ask.
For all of these things are repeated in this forum, and I get to learn exactly what folks really think in a way people don't often say in person.
This way I can be a better teacher, and answer student's questions more thouroghly. Usually, before they ask the question. Pre-emptively covering what they would ask before they ask it. 
Groovy stuff.


----------



## Steve

Si-Je said:


> Any ju-jitsu stylist if allowed to "lock out" on you your in big trouble and your chances of getting out at that point are slim. But even when I trained JJJ our counters for getting out of holds were largely "preventative" too. Not hardly did they ever teach you how to escape from a fully braced and locked out joint lock.


We just call this defense.  Counters start at "In time" counters where you see it coming and make choices.  We also work on counters that are late, where you've managed to get into trouble.  There are also last ditch counters, where you've managed to allow yourself to get all the way locked out and have basically one chance to escape.  Kind of a good, better, best situation... always best to defend well and avoid having to counter at all.





> But, what Sifu's been showing me uses tan sau to get out of joint locks that art "locked out" that have you in a "submissive" position already. This has blown my mind. Years of training to "submit" when the joint is compromised rather than be broken has been and still is hard to fight against. But the more I train it the more natural it is to get out of those positions. You just have to re-train your thinking, the body will follow the mind every time.
> I can't explain it in text. It's too weird. But the fact that I can now escape a full on koto gashie from a standing position without jumping over my whole arm is just amazing to me!


This sounds very interesting and something I'd really be interested in seeing.  


> The fact that I can escape the all-time BJJ favorite armbar on the ground is even more awesome! Even after they have you totally flexed. If you're totally flexed, you're about a 1/2 inch or so from losing your elbow.  Tan Sau, foreward force and corkscrew the body and your out.


I am reminded of the many times in sparring with people who are much less experienced, and releasing multiple submissions because they have no idea how much danger they were really in.  They just don't know what they don't know.  If I have your arm fully locked out, heels in, knees together, with a handshake grip on your hand to keep you from turning your arm other than thumb up, you can roll all you like.   I would roll with you.  Hopefully, you wouldn't roll to your stomach because face down armbars allow for much more leverage against the joint as I no longer have the ground blocking me from arching backward.  

It's not uncommon to "fit" an armbar in guard, roll through to my stomach, then over to my back to finish. 





> Others like the butterfly guard and the other BJJ grappling guard, I love the WC "guard" (as I call it) for it's simply WC basic stance with abduction. You do this while on your back with an opponent between your legs and their not getting into strike, grapple, choke, or armbar you. Simple as that, I've done it on purple belts.


So... now you crosstrain in BJJ, too?  Where the heck did these purple belts come from???  And why don't they know how to control a person's legs at the knees and execute a basic standing guard pass without using their "body weight"?  





> If their too heavy, (or a good wrestler and root under you) you plant those feet at their hips and kick back


And they straight ankle lock you (which is BJJ, but also Sambo, Judo and Catch Wrestling), 





> or put one foot on their knee (that's on the floor) and the other on the hip.


And they kneeslide/kneeride to side control after driving that low leg to the ground.  





> Kick and twist towards the knee side and voila! they roll just great,


Good lord.  Only if they've just had a stroke.  





> and your able to get do that WC situp while chainpunching (the ladies in my WC cardio class loved that move! Really gives you a workout).


Oh no.  Okay.  Please.  Please, I'm begging you.  Avoid articulating in too much detail the BJJ techniques because it doesn't help.  I can see any of these things working on someone with very, very little to no training.  I don't see these things working on anyone who has trained for more than 3 or 4 months, unless you overpower them with strength or size.


----------



## Hagakure

I'm confused, at what point did this entire thread become about WC V grappling? I thought it was about the combination of an effective striking art "with" a more grappling orientated one, thus the discussion of combining the best of both worlds?  :deadhorse


----------



## elder999

Hagakure said:


> I'm confused, at what point did this entire thread become about WC V grappling? I thought it was about the combination of an effective striking art "with" a more grappling orientated one, thus the discussion of combining the best of both worlds? :deadhorse


 

Around about post #8. Shortly after that, a few of us had an  *amplitude crowbar...*:lfao:

....I'm all outta popcorn, though.....:lfao:


----------



## dungeonworks

Si-Je said:


> Sifu showed me how to get out of a standing clinch with your back up against a wall using Chun Kiu technique. A little pivot and keeping your arms on top (no underhooking) and palm striking the opponent's sid eof the head.  Worked beautifully.
> It does seem that alot of anit-grappling technique does focus on "preventative" measures focusing on keeping the opponent away from afar.
> But, we train doing chi sau on our backs while the opponent is in a mount position or between the legs too.  This helps you stay out of armbars and to get out of them too.
> Any ju-jitsu stylist if allowed to "lock out" on you your in big trouble and your chances of getting out at that point are slim. But even when I trained JJJ our counters for getting out of holds were largely "preventative" too. Not hardly did they ever teach you how to escape from a fully braced and locked out joint lock.
> But, what Sifu's been showing me uses tan sau to get out of joint locks that art "locked out" that have you in a "submissive" position already.  This has blown my mind.  Years of training to "submit" when the joint is compromised rather than be broken has been and still is hard to fight against. But the more I train it the more natural it is to get out of those positions.  You just have to re-train your thinking, the body will follow the mind every time.
> I can't explain it in text. It's too weird. But the fact that I can now escape a full on koto gashie from a standing position without jumping over my whole arm is just amazing to me!
> The fact that I can escape the all-time BJJ favorite armbar on the ground is even more awesome! Even after they have you totally flexed. Tan Sau, foreward force and corkscrew the body and your out.
> Others like the butterfly guard and the other BJJ grappling guard, I love the WC "guard" (as I call it) for it's simply WC basic stance with abduction.  You do this while on your back with an opponent between your legs and their not getting into strike, grapple, choke, or armbar you.  Simple as that, I've done it on purple belts.  They just can't "pass the guard". Unless they try to go to the side then you "leg chi sau" comes into play.
> So, instead of locking my ankles around the guys waiste, I dig my knees into their torso and put my feet shoulder width apart, not touching them, just like when your standing only your feet are in the air.  From here you roll them, kick, and are "in guard".
> If they try to pry the knees apart (which they always do when they find they can't use their body weight to break through) then their clearly not able to attack you.  you hit them, their hands are busy.  If not, so what? You flow with your legs, torso, and arms. your arms are free to defend, attack, or whatever you need just like when standing. You roll them over with your legs.
> If their too heavy, (or a good wrestler and root under you) you plant those feet at their hips and kick back, or put one foot on their knee (that's on the floor) and the other on the hip.  Kick and twist towards the knee side and voila! they roll just great, and your able to get do that WC situp while chainpunching (the ladies in my WC cardio class loved that move!  Really gives you a workout).




:BSmeter: is approaching meltdown! :uhyeah:


----------



## Eru IlÃºvatar

Nothing to do with the topic but here's an interesting video I found: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfLq__054Qk&feature=related.


----------



## Hagakure

elder999 said:


> Around about post #8. Shortly after that, a few of us had an  *amplitude crowbar...*:lfao:
> 
> ....I'm all outta popcorn, though.....:lfao:




THAT soon eh?  Oh dear oh dear... Me too. We should have a whip round to get more pop corn.


----------



## MJS

Hagakure said:


> THAT soon eh?  Oh dear oh dear... Me too. We should have a whip round to get more pop corn.


 
Yes, unfortunately, the attempt, was an honest one, to discuss the importance of both and how easy it is for the 2 arts to mix.  However, some apparently don't feel that way, even though there were repeated attempts by some, myself included, to show otherwise.


----------



## MJS

Si-Je said:


> Just posting and talking about WC groundfighting technique. Giving personal experiences to folks who are interested. Gave examples of what I felt from other BJJ guys, wrestlers (whom I have a harder time with)
> 
> But a particular group of folks keep assuming that I've never ever trained or worked with stylists of other arts, especially grapplers and MMA guys, boxers, etc. Or that I've got any knowledge in any other art than WC/WT.
> Sigh. Whatever. I've trained MA since I was 10. I like, know stuff. lol!
> But, I've got different views than some if not many. That works out okay for me. This is a great way to learn about the collective opinion and consciousness of martial artists from all over the world. And exposure to them in a way I'd never get. And that's great for when I'm talking to prospective students. I already know more of what they think about fighting, what they think works, why, and what questions they will ask.
> For all of these things are repeated in this forum, and I get to learn exactly what folks really think in a way people don't often say in person.
> This way I can be a better teacher, and answer student's questions more thouroghly. Usually, before they ask the question. Pre-emptively covering what they would ask before they ask it.
> Groovy stuff.


 
See heres the difference.  I could take a 3 day seminar with Royce Gracie or any other BJJ black belt, and walk away with a number of things to work on.  However, I would not assume that I knew everything there was to know about BJJ.  I would not say that A, B, C didn't work, just from that 3 day event.  My point is this....the longer you work with someone, the better understanding you will have.  How long, honestly, have you really studied the art of BJJ?  Working with someone once a week, for an hour vs. someone who attends BJJ class 2-3 or more times a week...well, there will be obvious differences in knowledge and understanding as well as application.


----------



## MJS

Si-Je said:


> Sifu showed me how to get out of a standing clinch with your back up against a wall using Chun Kiu technique. A little pivot and keeping your arms on top (no underhooking) and palm striking the opponent's sid eof the head. Worked beautifully.
> It does seem that alot of anit-grappling technique does focus on "preventative" measures focusing on keeping the opponent away from afar.
> But, we train doing chi sau on our backs while the opponent is in a mount position or between the legs too. This helps you stay out of armbars and to get out of them too.
> Any ju-jitsu stylist if allowed to "lock out" on you your in big trouble and your chances of getting out at that point are slim. But even when I trained JJJ our counters for getting out of holds were largely "preventative" too. Not hardly did they ever teach you how to escape from a fully braced and locked out joint lock.
> But, what Sifu's been showing me uses tan sau to get out of joint locks that art "locked out" that have you in a "submissive" position already. This has blown my mind. Years of training to "submit" when the joint is compromised rather than be broken has been and still is hard to fight against. But the more I train it the more natural it is to get out of those positions. You just have to re-train your thinking, the body will follow the mind every time.
> I can't explain it in text. It's too weird. But the fact that I can now escape a full on koto gashie from a standing position without jumping over my whole arm is just amazing to me!
> The fact that I can escape the all-time BJJ favorite armbar on the ground is even more awesome! Even after they have you totally flexed. Tan Sau, foreward force and corkscrew the body and your out.
> Others like the butterfly guard and the other BJJ grappling guard, I love the WC "guard" (as I call it) for it's simply WC basic stance with abduction. You do this while on your back with an opponent between your legs and their not getting into strike, grapple, choke, or armbar you. Simple as that, I've done it on purple belts. They just can't "pass the guard". Unless they try to go to the side then you "leg chi sau" comes into play.
> So, instead of locking my ankles around the guys waiste, I dig my knees into their torso and put my feet shoulder width apart, not touching them, just like when your standing only your feet are in the air. From here you roll them, kick, and are "in guard".
> If they try to pry the knees apart (which they always do when they find they can't use their body weight to break through) then their clearly not able to attack you. you hit them, their hands are busy. If not, so what? You flow with your legs, torso, and arms. your arms are free to defend, attack, or whatever you need just like when standing. You roll them over with your legs.
> If their too heavy, (or a good wrestler and root under you) you plant those feet at their hips and kick back, or put one foot on their knee (that's on the floor) and the other on the hip. Kick and twist towards the knee side and voila! they roll just great, and your able to get do that WC situp while chainpunching (the ladies in my WC cardio class loved that move! Really gives you a workout).


 
Ummm.....I'm really speechless.


----------



## Hagakure

MJS said:


> Yes, unfortunately, the attempt, was an honest one, to discuss the importance of both and how easy it is for the 2 arts to mix.  However, some apparently don't feel that way, even though there were repeated attempts by some, myself included, to show otherwise.



I expect these same posters will tell me I'm crazy when I return to Wing Chun tomorow, and cross train with Ju Jutsu on a Thursday evening? The class I'm doing contains a good variety of knife defences, grappling etc. I personally think to study that in conjunction with a striking art, learning something along those lines is a great compliment. As for the whole getting confused between styles, it's my body, I'll bloody well tell it to do what I want it to. No confusion needed, unless you want to be.


----------



## Eru IlÃºvatar

> I expect these same posters will tell me I'm crazy when I return to Wing Chun tomorow, and cross train with Ju Jutsu on a Thursday evening? The class I'm doing contains a good variety of knife defences, grappling etc. I personally think to study that in conjunction with a striking art, learning something along those lines is a great compliment. As for the whole getting confused between styles, it's my body, I'll bloody well tell it to do what I want it to. No confusion needed, unless you want to be.


 
You're not crazy. And I agree. People acctualy told me that I'll have a horrible time adjusting when I swithed from WT to WC(they are suprisingly quite diffrent) and that it will be even harder for me than for a total beginer. But honestly I think I was in advantage in comparison to people who haven't trained anything before. I think if you look at it the right way, training in any martial art can only help you. By right way I mean, look at what each martial art has to offer you and how it would better you as a martial artis. You don't need to be that style. I think thats the main problem; that people want to embody a certein style and they don't look at it as something that it realy is-a tool. In the end you'll be the one fighting-with the tool and not as the tool. No matter how good one style is, we as human beings are uncapable of creating perfection or ideals so it would be unwise to confine youself to a style no matter how good you feel it is. I'm sure if people would be openminded they would find that most styles have something very useful to offer. People here who say that the only relevant thing when deciding to train other styles is the individuals will and free time to spare are absolutely right. But I feel that limiting youself to a style becouse you feel it's the ultimate and that nothing else has anything to offer is unwise in my opinion.


----------



## Hagakure

Eru Ilúvatar;1114999 said:
			
		

> You're not crazy. And I agree. People acctualy told me that I'll have a horrible time adjusting when I swithed from WT to WC(they are suprisingly quite diffrent) and that it will be even harder for me than for a total beginer. But honestly I think I was in advantage in comparison to people who haven't trained anything before. I think if you look at it the right way, training in any martial art can only help you. By right way I mean, look at what each martial art has to offer you and how it would better you as a martial artis. You don't need to be that style. I think thats the main problem; that people want to embody a certein style and they don't look at it as something that it realy is-a tool. In the end you'll be the one fighting-with the tool and not as the tool. No matter how good one style is, we as human beings are uncapable of creating perfection or ideals so it would be unwise to confine youself to a style no matter how good you feel it is. I'm sure if people would be openminded they would find that most styles have something very useful to offer. People here who say that the only relevant thing when deciding to train other styles is the individuals will and free time to spare are absolutely right. *But I feel that limiting youself to a style becouse you feel it's the ultimate and that nothing else has anything to offer is unwise in my opinion.*



Totally agree mate. I think in some small way, it boils down to people wanting their art to be the one ultimate. The prospect that it may contain a weakness that is overcome by other arts is anaethama to them. My belief is that it's better to learn from a variety of sources and to limit ones weaknesses. Having spoken to my old sifu, with him having studied Wing Chun *and *BJJ conbined for a total of 30 odd years of training, I listen to his suggestions/opinions, if in his view there is nothing wrong, it doesn't seem to bother him.


----------



## elder999

I've followed this thread with some interest.....I'm a very longtime karate student: kyokushin, tae kwon do, American kenpo, a very longtime _jujutsu_ and judo student. A relatively short time kali student, an intermediate aikido student, and a longtime though sporadic wing chun student-these days, most of my training concentrates on the last three, though. I've pretty much kept my mouth shut because this was such an interesting train wreck to observe, and I chimed in on one of the other "wing-chun/grappling" threads elsewhere once. The argument is mostly meaningless......



Si-Je said:


> Sigh. Whatever. I've trained MA since I was 10. I like, know stuff. lol!.


 
Sigh. Whatever. I've trained MA since I was _8_, formally since I was 11, which means two years short of twice as long as you.Most of the time ,I feel like I like, _don't *know* ****._ :lol:


----------



## Eru IlÃºvatar

Ha!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZYQwNLAnAI&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FefVTpqVVI4&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-30uo3vQUM&feature=rec-HM-r2


----------



## jarrod

elder999 said:


> I've followed this thread with some interest.....I'm a very longtime karate student: kyokushin, tae kwon do, American kenpo, a very longtime _jujutsu_ and judo student. A relatively short time kali student, an intermediate aikido student, and a longtime though sporadic wing chun student-these days, most of my training concentrates on the last three, though. I've pretty much kept my mouth shut because this was such an interesting train wreck to observe, and I chimed in on one of the other "wing-chun/grappling" threads elsewhere once. The argument is mostly meaningless......
> 
> 
> 
> Sigh. Whatever. I've trained MA since I was _8_, formally since I was 11, which means two years short of twice as long as you.Most of the time ,I feel like I like, _don't *know* ****._ :lol:


 
rather than address your point, she's going to come here & critique your math :lol:

jf


----------



## elder999

jarrod said:


> rather than address your point, she's going to come here & critique your math :lol:
> 
> jf


 
Oh, somehow I wound up thinking she'd said since she was _*11*(maybe because I've formally trained since I was 11)_?? :lol:

Whatever.....:lfao: At least I know I don't know ****...:lfao:


----------



## MJS

Hagakure said:


> I expect these same posters will tell me I'm crazy when I return to Wing Chun tomorow, and cross train with Ju Jutsu on a Thursday evening? The class I'm doing contains a good variety of knife defences, grappling etc. I personally think to study that in conjunction with a striking art, learning something along those lines is a great compliment. As for the whole getting confused between styles, it's my body, I'll bloody well tell it to do what I want it to. No confusion needed, unless you want to be.


 
Yes, you probably will get flamed by some on here, due to the fact, that supposedly, you don't need anything, except the WC anti grappling.  

No worries though, as you won't get flamed by me.  Keep on doing what you're doing.  IMHO, you're bettering yourself and making yourself a more well rounded fighter.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

I enjoyed this video...check out...do you guys have any ground fighting wc videos like this. Where sometimes the fight goes to the ground. maybe if your fighting against the guy in all black your JJJ or BJJ can help the guy on bottom get off the ground?


----------



## dungeonworks

Yoshiyahu said:


> I enjoyed this video...check out...do you guys have any ground fighting wc videos like this. Where sometimes the fight goes to the ground. maybe if your fighting against the guy in all black your JJJ or BJJ can help the guy on bottom get off the ground?



It definitely would, even though he is stuck in one of the most (if not the most) dominant position.  There are sweeps he could try by sensing the weight disbursement, toss him to the heavy side.  He could also get an arm under his groin and try to shoot out the backside and take his back.  It's not impossible, but can be difficult.  Guys escape from the same position all the time in MMA bouts, which look more organized than the mess in that video.  Heck, they were chain punches started at the opposite side of the ring!  Could have FedEx'ed a letter telling him what he was doing and when he would be there! LOL


----------



## mook jong man

One things for sure man , if that bloke on the bottom knew how to bridge , he wouldn't of wore most of them punches . Because the guy on top would have been too busy trying to keep his balance and would of had to post instead of being able to rain punches down at will .


----------



## jarrod

mook jong man said:


> One things for sure man , if that bloke on the bottom knew how to bridge , he wouldn't of wore most of them punches . Because the guy on top would have been too busy trying to keep his balance and would of had to post instead of being able to rain punches down at will .


 
some guys have learned to ride out a bridge & keep throwing punches.  i've started placing my knee in the small of their back before i bridge to give them an extra push & make sure their hands are on the mat & not my beautiful face! :lol:

jf


----------



## mook jong man

jarrod said:


> some guys have learned to ride out a bridge & keep throwing punches. i've started placing my knee in the small of their back before i bridge to give them an extra push & make sure their hands are on the mat & not my beautiful face! :lol:
> 
> jf


 
Do you mean if they have the hooks in or just riding it out keeping good balance ? If I can't bridge them off I tend to shield with my elbows as I come up and bury my face in their stomach and then grab them in a bear hug and pull them down hard and force them to post .

 Could you explain your technique a little more please , as I understand it just before you bridge you give them a little nudge in the back to get their momentum going forward to increase the effect of your bridge is that correct ?


----------



## Hagakure

MJS said:


> Yes, you probably will get flamed by some on here, due to the fact, that supposedly, you don't need anything, except the WC anti grappling.
> 
> No worries though, as you won't get flamed by me. Keep on doing what you're doing. IMHO, *you're bettering yourself and making yourself a more well rounded fighter*.


 
That's the plan mate, just have to work off my Xmas-belly first.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Mook Jong when you speak of bridge are you speaking of from a standing posistion when the guy was on his feet chainpunching like crazy...I think jarrod is speaking from the ground perspective on how to get out submissive posistion when the bloke was getting his face pounded to mat!





mook jong man said:


> Do you mean if they have the hooks in or just riding it out keeping good balance ? If I can't bridge them off I tend to shield with my elbows as I come up and bury my face in their stomach and then grab them in a bear hug and pull them down hard and force them to post .
> 
> Could you explain your technique a little more please , as I understand it just before you bridge you give them a little nudge in the back to get their momentum going forward to increase the effect of your bridge is that correct ?


----------



## Si-Je

MJS said:


> Yes, unfortunately, the attempt, was an honest one, to discuss the importance of both and how easy it is for the 2 arts to mix. However, some apparently don't feel that way, even though there were repeated attempts by some, myself included, to show otherwise.


 
No, some don&#8217;t feel that way. 




MJS said:


> See heres the difference. I could take a 3 day seminar with Royce Gracie or any other BJJ black belt, and walk away with a number of things to work on. However, I would not assume that I knew everything there was to know about BJJ. I would not say that A, B, C didn't work, just from that 3 day event. My point is this....the longer you work with someone, the better understanding you will have. How long, honestly, have you really studied the art of BJJ? Working with someone once a week, for an hour vs. someone who attends BJJ class 2-3 or more times a week...well, there will be obvious differences in knowledge and understanding as well as application.


 
No, I haven&#8217;t studied the art of BJJ, and I don&#8217;t want to. That&#8217;s the point. I feel that I&#8217;ve got good training and technique in ground fighting. That it&#8217;s not needed for me to take other arts. Apparently, you and many others wish to do that, so go ahead. You don&#8217;t need to convince me that it&#8217;s the right thing to do. I don&#8217;t agree that the two arts mix well. That&#8217;s just my opinion.
I agree that the longer you work with someone the more you understand about their style, whatever style they study and that&#8217;s all grand. But, I&#8217;m not signing up to learn another art right now, possibly ever. And defiantly not a grappling art. Just not my cup of tea. J



MJS said:


> Ummm.....I'm really speechless.


 
I really don&#8217;t know what your meaning by this statement. But, I&#8217;ll just take it for what it&#8217;s worth, and assume you mean to be sarcastic and condescending. If you don&#8217;t like the technique or don&#8217;t understand it, ask. If you don&#8217;t like it fine. That description of technique was for the Wing Chun people not the grapplers. Not for folks that just aren&#8217;t interested, or that don&#8217;t train WC/WT. 



dungeonworks said:


> is approaching meltdown!


 
Again, same response to you as I stated to MJS. You don&#8217;t like it, that&#8217;s your thing. You don&#8217;t understand it, ask. You don&#8217;t care, I won&#8217;t post anymore WC technique on the board for escaping these powerful and all mighty BJJ moves! Lol! There not that hard to get out of using WT/WC technique and principles. Very basic stuff. You want to train WC and then laugh at it when it suits you that&#8217;s something I just don&#8217;t understand. You want to train WC and then believe it doesn&#8217;t work when you need it or when against a grappler, then that&#8217;s your choice, not mine. 

Overall, this has been a good thread and good discussion on WC and BJJ, it has really illuminated for me the limitations people set upon themselves and their arts.


----------



## elder999

Si-Je said:


> Overall, this has been a good thread and good discussion on WC and BJJ, it has really illuminated for me the limitations people set upon themselves and their arts.


 

Oh, the irony.:lfao:


----------



## Steve

Si-Je said:


> Overall, this has been a good thread and good discussion on WC and BJJ, it has really illuminated for me the limitations people set upon themselves and their arts.


If my kids ever ask me to define 'irony' I'll show them this thread, culminating in this statement.


----------



## Si-Je

May every fighter train and depend on BJJ!  lol!

:cheers:


----------



## Steve

elder999 said:


> Oh, the irony.:lfao:


Wow... I just noticed that you and I had virtually the same reaction. 



			
				si-je said:
			
		

> May every fighter train and depend on BJJ! lol!


 Once again, no one's saying that you or anyone should crosstrain.  Only that crosstraining is undeniably beneficial.  Bruce Lee benefited from it.  Sifu Emin Boztep did it and benefited.  The guys in the very videos you posted have benefited from it.  Your husband by your account, has benefited from it.  And by your own words, whether you admit it or not, you have benefited from it.  

I just watched Meet the Robinsons with my kids.  Great movie, if you haven't seen it.  There's this one scene that reminded me of this thread.  In it, the villain (who is eventually redeemed) is flashing back to his childhood.  He's walking through the halls of his school and the kids are all saying hi.  One kid says, "Hey scooter (or whatever his name was).  You wanna come by after school and play?"  His response in voice over, "They all hated me." 

This thread is kind of like that.  It's become unecessarily adverserial, where you have set yourself up against everyone else and even when it's clear to everyone that the difference between your position and mine (or MJS's or whomever's) is insignificant, you refuse to see it.  MJS virtually parroted your position back to you and you still argued with him and told him he was wrong.  

For me, if I had the time and money, I'd study as many diverse styles of MA as I can, if for no other reason that personal edification.  I train in BJJ only because, like you, I have limited time and picked the one I like the best.  Unlike you, I'm not so insecure that I must continually assert that the style in which I train is the best.  I'll be the first to say that BJJ by itself has gaps that, were I interested in self defense training, I'd definitely work to supplement.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

i think they hate your post...lol...



Si-Je said:


> No, some dont feel that way.
> 
> 
> 
> No, I havent studied the art of BJJ, and I dont want to. Thats the point. I feel that Ive got good training and technique in ground fighting. That its not needed for me to take other arts. Apparently, you and many others wish to do that, so go ahead. You dont need to convince me that its the right thing to do. I dont agree that the two arts mix well. Thats just my opinion.
> I agree that the longer you work with someone the more you understand about their style, whatever style they study and thats all grand. But, Im not signing up to learn another art right now, possibly ever. And defiantly not a grappling art. Just not my cup of tea. J
> 
> 
> I really dont know what your meaning by this statement. But, Ill just take it for what its worth, and assume you mean to be sarcastic and condescending. If you dont like the technique or dont understand it, ask. If you dont like it fine. That description of technique was for the Wing Chun people not the grapplers. Not for folks that just arent interested, or that dont train WC/WT.
> 
> 
> Again, same response to you as I stated to MJS. You dont like it, thats your thing. You dont understand it, ask. You dont care, I wont post anymore WC technique on the board for escaping these powerful and all mighty BJJ moves! Lol! There not that hard to get out of using WT/WC technique and principles. Very basic stuff. You want to train WC and then laugh at it when it suits you thats something I just dont understand. You want to train WC and then believe it doesnt work when you need it or when against a grappler, then thats your choice, not mine.
> 
> Overall, this has been a good thread and good discussion on WC and BJJ, it has really illuminated for me the limitations people set upon themselves and their arts.


----------



## Steve

Oh, Yoshi.  It's not about hate or like. Maybe that's the crux of the misunderstanding.  Where you and si-je look at this thread focusing on only what is different, the entire spirit of this thread is to look for what is common and can be universally helpful.  Speaking only for myself, it just makes me sad and tired to see you two congratulating yourselves for being so resolute in your knowledge that the Earth is flat.  At least you have each other.


----------



## mook jong man

Yoshiyahu said:


> Mook Jong when you speak of bridge are you speaking of from a standing posistion when the guy was on his feet chainpunching like crazy...I think jarrod is speaking from the ground perspective on how to get out submissive posistion when the bloke was getting his face pounded to mat!


 
No mate , I am specifically talking about the wrestlers bridge , not the bridge you are thinking of in Wing Chun where you are trying to gain contact with the opponents forearms .


----------



## Si-Je

Yoshiyahu said:


> I enjoyed this video...check out...do you guys have any ground fighting wc videos like this. Where sometimes the fight goes to the ground. maybe if your fighting against the guy in all black your JJJ or BJJ can help the guy on bottom get off the ground?


 
ROFL! I just noticed that video Yoshi! I can't stop laughing! hahahhaha! BJJ will help you get off the ground here?! Ouch, being punched in face too many times in a short period.... I must get him in my butterfly guard quick, ooops, I'm unconscious! lol!
Your naughty, and no one noticed. 
Comparing MMA fighters getting out of that position in MMA matches against MMA strikers does not compute. They just don't punch that many times continously in the ring or in many other striking styles at all. And the power is different, they don't train to punch with power in short distances, and small spaces.


----------



## Si-Je

elder999 said:


> Oh, the irony.:lfao:


 
The irony is that people who train an art don't bother to look to their art to discover what can be used against another arts technique that may have defeated them.  They just run like sheep to the other art.
If your art has a weakness (or just your application of that art) you learn how to overcome that weakness.

The irony is that most of WT/WC technique that is taught is being watered down for this very reason. That people don't have the patience or vision to finish their training before they seek answers from another art. And that Sifu's are mixing their WC/WT with these other popular and inefficient arts to keep student's happy. 
(and yes, it is INEFFICIENT to use your entire body on a joint lock that only requires 5-8 lbs of pressure to aquire a break)
You say BJJ uses sensitivity and fluidity, I haven't felt that yet from such a practitioner, and yes, they were people that trained 3-5 days a week and had reached high rank in the art. And the use of Brute Strength is rampant in BJJ, for everytime I use WC guard on the ground they always try to jump in on my knees and break through my "guard", when that doesn't work they try to pry the knees apart, using, guess what? Brute strength. When that doesn't work, they try to pick me up (because I'm small I guess) for a body slam, again, brute strength (I couldn't pick up my Sifu in that fashion!) 
The two styles conflict drastically in concepts and fighting/defense approaches. Why not take another art that complements your own more? That would flow o and from WT/WC concepts more effeciently.

Mook Jong Man,  I was wondering about that defense to a mounted attacker with the clinch you described.  
Have you ever tried to latch the opponent as they punch down on you while bucking your hip up under him?

like say: they throw a hook punch and you dai sau with the left hand, then latch the punching arm as you buck up from under them with your right hip to roll them over. You can follow through with punching on the free hand. Just something to play with when you get a chance.  You can do this off a straight punch too, using Tan sau, or pak sau. Buck with the side hip opposite from the arm your latching.  (latching usually ends up at the elbow or bicep when in this close, and that's all good.) 

Sifu says: for the chunners, "you use Chi Sau principles for your entire body such as a when your bucking, have the hips bucking upwards in a circular motion while your re-directing the punches with your arms. Play with chi sau using your whole body to counter BJJ. BJJ people I don't expect you to understand this because you don't understand chi sau principles. You learn to do chi sau with your whole body on the ground.  Arms, legs, hips, shoulders, head, everything in unison depending on the mount and the positioning of the opponent.  Where their body weight is centralized, and where it's going."


----------



## Hand Sword

:sadsong:

I can't believe the thread is still going on. I'm going to call the animal cops. This horse is not only dead but continues to be tortured!


----------



## jarrod

mook jong man said:


> Do you mean if they have the hooks in or just riding it out keeping good balance ? If I can't bridge them off I tend to shield with my elbows as I come up and bury my face in their stomach and then grab them in a bear hug and pull them down hard and force them to post .
> 
> Could you explain your technique a little more please , as I understand it just before you bridge you give them a little nudge in the back to get their momentum going forward to increase the effect of your bridge is that correct ?



i mean if the guy has a high mount & is just leaning back a bit like a cowboy on a bull.  if he has his hooks in he can't really sit up to punch (though he can chop away with a much slower but more powerful strikes).

the knee isn't quite a nudge, it's more of a brace.  if you push with your knee, your leg alone won't be strong enough to move his back muscles.  so instead you want to place your knee in their back, so that when you bridge you are using the strength in both legs as well as your hips.  that should be strong enough to drive them forward.

a good approach to jujitsu for me has been to analyze which muscles are used in my body vs. what my opponent is using.  then i want to make sure i'm using each muscle group that can possibly help me, while not needlessly tensing other muscles.  jujitsu can work against a stronger person because it isolates the opponent's limbs while maximizing the jujitsuka's placement of weight, use of leverage, & use of strength.  figuring out the most efficient way to use your strength is vastly different from relying on brute strength, which is my main contention with this thread.

jf


----------



## mook jong man

jarrod said:


> i mean if the guy has a high mount & is just leaning back a bit like a cowboy on a bull. if he has his hooks in he can't really sit up to punch (though he can chop away with a much slower but more powerful strikes).
> 
> the knee isn't quite a nudge, it's more of a brace. if you push with your knee, your leg alone won't be strong enough to move his back muscles. so instead you want to place your knee in their back, so that when you bridge you are using the strength in both legs as well as your hips. that should be strong enough to drive them forward.
> 
> a good approach to jujitsu for me has been to analyze which muscles are used in my body vs. what my opponent is using. then i want to make sure i'm using each muscle group that can possibly help me, while not needlessly tensing other muscles. jujitsu can work against a stronger person because it isolates the opponent's limbs while maximizing the jujitsuka's placement of weight, use of leverage, & use of strength. figuring out the most efficient way to use your strength is vastly different from relying on brute strength, which is my main contention with this thread.
> 
> jf


 
Ah , now I understand , thank you sir , sounds great I will try that out next time I grapple .

Yes Si-Je I have done the technique you describe , which does work well if the attacker is throwing circular strikes at your head , you can just latch that arm down as you bridge and roll .

 But if your attacker is another Wing Chun guy , then you are going to be under a barrage of centreline punches , in which case you might be able to do Tan / Bong from the bottom , whilst bridging your hips up like a man possesed or shielding and clinching so that you can pull him down close so that you can roll him .


----------



## elder999

Si-Je said:


> To* break a joint only takes 2-6 lbs of concentrated pressure*. (depending on the joint, i.e. elbow, knee, wrist) Muscle built around the joint can help and hinder a person usually taking away some flexability if one bulks up too much, but that muscle mass can protect the joint making it harder to break or "submit".
> So, yes, it doen't take alot of strength to submit or break an arm on a larger opponent.


 




Si-Je said:


> And that Sifu's are mixing their WC/WT with these other popular and inefficient arts to keep student's happy.
> (and yes, it is INEFFICIENT to use your entire body on a joint lock that only *requires 5-8 lbs of pressure to aquire a break*


 

Soooo......_I've got questions._

Like, *which is it, 2-6 or 5-8 "pounds of pressure?"*

Like, which is it "pounds of pressure," or _"pounds of *force*?"_


Which joint are you referring to? Does it take the same amount (of force, pressure or whatever) to break a finger as it does an elbow? What about a shoulder? 
What about a _knee?_

Which anatomy text did you derive that little factoid from?

Do you mean "break the joint," or "rupture the articular cartilage capsule?"

Perhaps you mean _rupture the medial ligament and collateral ligaments, also called the "joint capsule", releasing synovial fluid_ though I doubt it-maybe "rupture the annular ligament?" Maybe just "rupture the lateral epicondyle," though, again, I doubt it. 

Have you ever actually "broken a joint," or had one broken?

Do you mean "use the whole body" for the movement devoted to the kansetsu waza, or use the whole body to control the other person's body?

Or neither, perhaps?



Si-Je said:


> The irony is that people who train an art don't bother to look to their art to discover what can be used against another arts technique that may have defeated them. They just run like sheep to the other art.


 
But, if I understand you correctly, you have no problem with a "chunner" cross training in, say, Japanese jujutsu, or judo-it's just BJJ you have a beef with, right?


----------



## MJS

Si-Je said:


> No, some dont feel that way.




Yup, its been very obvious.






> No, I havent studied the art of BJJ, and I dont want to. Thats the point. I feel that Ive got good training and technique in ground fighting. That its not needed for me to take other arts. Apparently, you and many others wish to do that, so go ahead. You dont need to convince me that its the right thing to do. I dont agree that the two arts mix well. Thats just my opinion.





> I agree that the longer you work with someone the more you understand about their style, whatever style they study and thats all grand. But, Im not signing up to learn another art right now, possibly ever. And defiantly not a grappling art. Just not my cup of tea.




Yet you still make assumptions about an art you've never trained in.  Hmm...go figure.  And why do you keep making a reference to 'signing up' somewhere?  Who the hell said anything about that?  I don't have to 'sign up' somewhere to learn the art.  For the first few years of my BJJ training, it was a 1 on 1 private session in the backyard, garage or the school when it was closed.  No money exchanged, it was simply a hardcore workout.  I still grapple with people.  Interestingly enough, I ran into one of my old BJJ teachers this weekend at an Arnis Black Belt workout.  Gee imagine that...a BJJ Purple Belt who trains in Kenpo and Arnis.  He told me anytime I wanted to come and train, the doors to his school would be open. 





> I really dont know what your meaning by this statement. But, Ill just take it for what its worth, and assume you mean to be sarcastic and condescending. If you dont like the technique or dont understand it, ask. If you dont like it fine. That description of technique was for the Wing Chun people not the grapplers. Not for folks that just arent interested, or that dont train WC/WT.


 
I, as well as a few others seem to have read that and found it a bit hard to believe.  Sorry, but a BJJ Purple belt should be able to school pretty much everyone they roll with.  Someone who cant...well, IMHO, should not be wearing a purple.





> Again, same response to you as I stated to MJS. You dont like it, thats your thing. You dont understand it, ask. You dont care, I wont post anymore WC technique on the board for escaping these powerful and all mighty BJJ moves! Lol! There not that hard to get out of using WT/WC technique and principles. Very basic stuff. You want to train WC and then laugh at it when it suits you thats something I just dont understand. You want to train WC and then believe it doesnt work when you need it or when against a grappler, then thats your choice, not mine.


 
I'm sorry, but this thread has gone on for 20+ pages, but have I said that I wanted to train WC?  I honestly don't recall saying that, but if I did, then so be it.  And I would think that if WC, which judging by your posts, you're still considering the almighty art, had such superior ground skills, that anyone and everyone who wanted to be great on the ground would be banging the doors down of every WC school around.  Doesn't seem like thats the case though does it?  

And speaking of the principles...you seem to educate everyone on WC, yet turn a deaf ear when someone tries to educate you on BJJ.  But wait, you dont want to hear it do you?  But you expect people to listen to you when you talk about WC?  




> Overall, this has been a good thread and good discussion on WC and BJJ, it has really illuminated for me the limitations people set upon themselves and their arts.


 
LOL, limitations?  Please, I've been training now for 24yrs.  I'm quite capable of making what I train in work.   And speaking of limitations, you seems to have a very distorted view on things, only having the mindset of what hubby teaches and nothing else.  Well if hubby said it'll work it must work.  If hubby says this, if hubby says that, if Emin said this or that.  There people on here who train BJJ and are trying to show you the differences and how effective it is, but because hubby said otherwise or this person said otherwise, instead of thinking for yourself, you follow like a sheep.  

And thats fine.  I wish you well in your martial arts journey.


----------



## MJS

Si-Je said:


> ROFL! I just noticed that video Yoshi! I can't stop laughing! hahahhaha! BJJ will help you get off the ground here?! Ouch, being punched in face too many times in a short period.... I must get him in my butterfly guard quick, ooops, I'm unconscious! lol!
> Your naughty, and no one noticed.
> Comparing MMA fighters getting out of that position in MMA matches against MMA strikers does not compute. They just don't punch that many times continously in the ring or in many other striking styles at all. And the power is different, they don't train to punch with power in short distances, and small spaces.


 
Hmm...another shameless plug for the ultimate art of WC eh?  Guess it goes to show that if you don't know the groundgame, you get screwed like that guy.  No sije, WC isn't the ultimate and had someone known what to do on the ground, those punches would not have been as effective.


----------



## dungeonworks

Si-Je said:


> ROFL! I just noticed that video Yoshi! I can't stop laughing! hahahhaha! BJJ will help you get off the ground here?! Ouch, being punched in face too many times in a short period.... I must get him in my butterfly guard quick, ooops, I'm unconscious! lol!
> Your naughty, and no one noticed.
> Comparing MMA fighters getting out of that position in MMA matches against MMA strikers does not compute. They just don't punch that many times continously in the ring or in many other striking styles at all. And the power is different, they don't train to punch with power in short distances, and small spaces.



Here again the :BSmeter: approaches dangerous levels.  Have you ever watched the UFC or other MMA competition?  How about a real fight at the bar or wherever?  Ever notice that MMA is the closest thing out there to a real fight aside a few rules?  The results you believe from these punches and kicks less often as dramatic as you seem to believe....but the funniest part was the suggestion of Tan-ing out of an armbar in that earlier post!  That one was priceless!  So far, that is the only move you have picked apart from BJJ and now because Yoshi puts up a 30 second video of a guy in the mount, you think BJJ doesn't have an answer for it.  That shows ignorance of BJJ....LOT's of it....To borrow from MJS, I am speechless...


----------



## jarrod

mook jong man said:


> Ah , now I understand , thank you sir , sounds great I will try that out next time I grapple .


 
you're welcome, please let me know how it works for you :asian:

jf


----------



## dungeonworks

Si-Je said:


> The irony is that people who train an art don't bother to look to their art to discover what can be used against another arts technique that may have defeated them.  They just run like sheep to the other art.
> If your art has a weakness (or just your application of that art) you learn how to overcome that weakness.
> 
> The irony is that most of WT/WC technique that is taught is being watered down for this very reason. That people don't have the patience or vision to finish their training before they seek answers from another art. And that Sifu's are mixing their WC/WT with these other popular and inefficient arts to keep student's happy.
> (and yes, it is INEFFICIENT to use your entire body on a joint lock that only requires 5-8 lbs of pressure to aquire a break)
> You say BJJ uses sensitivity and fluidity, I haven't felt that yet from such a practitioner, and yes, they were people that trained 3-5 days a week and had reached high rank in the art. And the use of Brute Strength is rampant in BJJ, for everytime I use WC guard on the ground they always try to jump in on my knees and break through my "guard", when that doesn't work they try to pry the knees apart, using, guess what? Brute strength. When that doesn't work, they try to pick me up (because I'm small I guess) for a body slam, again, brute strength (I couldn't pick up my Sifu in that fashion!)
> The two styles conflict drastically in concepts and fighting/defense approaches. Why not take another art that complements your own more? That would flow o and from WT/WC concepts more effeciently.
> 
> Mook Jong Man,  I was wondering about that defense to a mounted attacker with the clinch you described.
> Have you ever tried to latch the opponent as they punch down on you while bucking your hip up under him?
> 
> like say: they throw a hook punch and you dai sau with the left hand, then latch the punching arm as you buck up from under them with your right hip to roll them over. You can follow through with punching on the free hand. Just something to play with when you get a chance.  You can do this off a straight punch too, using Tan sau, or pak sau. Buck with the side hip opposite from the arm your latching.  (latching usually ends up at the elbow or bicep when in this close, and that's all good.)
> 
> Sifu says: for the chunners, "you use Chi Sau principles for your entire body such as a when your bucking, have the hips bucking upwards in a circular motion while your re-directing the punches with your arms. Play with chi sau using your whole body to counter BJJ. BJJ people I don't expect you to understand this because you don't understand chi sau principles. You learn to do chi sau with your whole body on the ground.  Arms, legs, hips, shoulders, head, everything in unison depending on the mount and the positioning of the opponent.  Where their body weight is centralized, and where it's going."



Proof again you have no clue about BJJ.  A BJJ stylist would pass over your legs to side control then/or mount.

Jeesh


----------



## elder999

Si-Je said:


> My SIFU is a 4th degree MCMAP instructor for the USMC




So, I have more questions-I'll spare you the overly personal, intrusive and downright disrespectful ones like "where is your hu-_er_-_SIFU_ stationed, and what rank is he?"

I am...._confused_, though. I've seen the MCMAP material, both throught MCMAP trained people and the manual(s). Isn't a large component of it Brazilian jujitsu derived ground-fighting? Being a "4th degree MCMAP instructor" would mean that he has BJJ as a component in his skill-set. I won't say that he's diluted or polluted his "pure wing chun," but I have to wonder just how it is he manages to keep his _peanut butter off his chocolate,_ so to speak.....:lol:


----------



## MJS

While we're throwing around video clips, I thought I'd post this one. This is from the now defunct Extreme Fighting show. Here we see a grappler and a WC guy. This is who the WC guy has trained under. A bit about Mr. Falkner.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfrCmddfix0&feature=related


Hmm...win by RNC.


----------



## elder999

Si-Je said:


> My SIFU has trained under two masters reaching Level 5 technician under BOTH in Wing Chun and Wing Tsun.
> *My SIFU knows the COMPLETE system of both WC and WT.* My SIFU knows butterfly swords, dragon pole, mook jong, escrima, anti-grappling, knife fighting and defense (from USMC) whereas some SIFU's and stylists do not know the entire system of WC/WT.I am pround of my SIFU, that is why I am his student in the first place, reguardless of the fact that he's my husband as well. If his art was worthless, I'd train elsewhere.
> I came on here oringionally and didn't name him as my SIFU only to keep from being presumptous in reguards to his official ranking. *He is unaffiliated with any master and has not been "awarded" the title of Sifu, *so I did not want to refer to him as a Sifu until we could establish the officiality of that title. But, as it seems, me referring to him as "hubbie" has diminished and disrespected his skill, knowledge, and qualifications as a teacher I will then promote him to status of "Sifu" as a student who seeks his knowledge.


 
So, which is it-"unaffiliated with any master," or "knows the COMPLETE system of both WC and WT?"

Which two masters did he train under? 



Si-Je said:


> My SIFU was one of the major instructors that helped to design MCMAP into the art it is today


 
Again, _Im confused_. I was told that Lieutenant Colonel George Bristol and Master Gunnery Sergeant Cardo Urso developed the MCMAP curriculum?


----------



## Steve

si-je said:
			
		

> My SIFU is a 4th degree MCMAP instructor for the USMC


If this is true, then I can guarantee you that he knows how to pass your open guard... err... WC guard, and it's not by using magic.  I wonder why he hasn't shared any of them with you.


----------



## Eru IlÃºvatar

> While we're throwing around video clips, I thought I'd post this one. This is from the now defunct Extreme Fighting show. Here we see a grappler and a WC guy. This is who the WC guy has trained under. A bit about Mr. Falkner.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfrCm...eature=related
> 
> 
> Hmm...win by RNC.


 
Interesting video... It turns out this Falkner guy has been training WC since 83 and has also studied with Lo Man Kam. He has also thought the military-Navy Seals teams 2 and 4.


----------



## Steve

elder999 said:


> So, which is it-"unaffiliated with any master," or "knows the COMPLETE system of both WC and WT?"
> 
> Which two masters did he train under?
> 
> 
> 
> Again, _Im confused_. I was told that Lieutenant Colonel George Bristol and Master Gunnery Sergeant Cardo Urso developed the MCMAP curriculum?


And it was my understanding that Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu was specifically chosen as a base art in both Army Combatives and MCMAP.  Why would your husband be a part of promoting a style for which you both seem to have such a disdain?  I am genuinely confused.


----------



## mook jong man

MJS said:


> While we're throwing around video clips, I thought I'd post this one. This is from the now defunct Extreme Fighting show. Here we see a grappler and a WC guy. This is who the WC guy has trained under. A bit about Mr. Falkner.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfrCmddfix0&feature=related
> 
> 
> Hmm...win by RNC.


 
I can see the point you are trying to make , but seriously that Wing Chun guy was crap . That guy is a Sifu that is friggin unbelievable , he must of got his Sifu rank out of the bottom of a box of corn flakes .

 I'm just talking about the W.C he was performing in the clip , he had his guard down around waist height , in our school he would of got his face ripped off .

 He was pretty slow as well , I've taught grade three's with two years training that were faster than this so called Sifu .

 But yet again another retard stepping into the cage with out a clue what to do on the ground , point well taken .


----------



## MJS

mook jong man said:


> I can see the point you are trying to make , but seriously that Wing Chun guy was crap . That guy is a Sifu that is friggin unbelievable , he must of got his Sifu rank out of the bottom of a box of corn flakes .
> 
> I'm just talking about the W.C he was performing in the clip , he had his guard down around waist height , in our school he would of got his face ripped off .
> 
> He was pretty slow as well , I've taught grade three's with two years training that were faster than this so called Sifu .
> 
> But yet again another retard stepping into the cage with out a clue what to do on the ground , point well taken .


 
Well, my point was 2 fold.  One: We see an awful lot of claims, that WC is an unbeatable art.  IMO, there is no ultimate art.  Proof further shows the worship that Royce received, yet he lost to Matt Hughes.  Now, I'm not taking anything away from Royce, but I'm simply pointing that no art is unbeatable.

My second point was while this may not be the best display of WC in the cage, neither was that cheap attempt from that video clip that was posted, with the WC guy chain punching the other guy while in the mount.  Basically it was an attempt to discredit BJJ/MMA.  

IMHO, I feel that everyone can benefit from any style.  If I didn't think so, then I wouldn't cross train, and I doubt anyone else would either.  Whats sad, is that there're so many people wearing rose colored glasses on here, its amazing.  And its not limited to WC either.  There're just as many wearing them in the Kenpo world as well.  

I'll use this as another example.  Someone can go to med. school and become a doctor.  In Sijes' world, that is all you need.  Just a general doctor.  Yet some go on to further their studies and become a specialist in a certain area.  Goes to show that a regular doc. can't always give the best advise.  If he can't, he usually suggests going to a specialist.  He recommends someone to go to.  No different here.  As a Kenpo guy, I have a number of takedown defenses.  Yet, if I want to further expand on that, I go to a grappler, the specialist on the ground.  Same with a knife.  Kenpo has knife in it, yet, I can and do, go to Arnis and a few other FMAs to expand on that.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

I like your analogy. You have some who are general Martial Artist. They train a little boxing, hung gar and aikido. Then you have some who are specialist they train or specialize only Judo or Only Tai Chi. Its best to learn from a specialist in martial arts then a person who studies a little bit of everything from numerous systems. But any way nothing wrong with learning a little from other arts.

I personally have no problem with BJJ. If you practice BJJ your probably a better wrestler than me. But I am the type who dislikes the whole ground thing. I don't really like ground fighting. I perfer punches and kicks flying and blocks and deflections intercepting. Thats what I like to see. People transition from stance to stance in hand to hand combat. As for BJJ I personally think a Judo or Japanese Jutjitsu or Aikijuijitsu would be a better art than BJJ...thats my opinion i could be wrong. But the art really depends on the person.

But if I wanted to learn how to fight using BJJ i wouldn't learn BJJ i would learn MMA. Because most of the time BJJ guys get the crap beat out of them by your average MMA guys!

Just my opinion. MMA guys seem more condition and better fighters than BJJ guys. But I willing to test your skill sometime. Very interesting. I cant wait to try this one MMA school in my town. It looks interesting from the site. An it seems like its great place to be to have constant sparring partners!





 





 
But ne way. I just don't really like how wrestling looks. To me its okay if I am fighting a smaller opponent I would want to wrestle but someone alot bigger than me I feel no matter how much I practice BJJ it would be useless against a gigantic sumo wrestler or 6'4" football player!

Just my opinion I could be wrong...

Actually the first video wasn't really a slam against BJJ. Actually it shows a guy getting taking to the ground and pounded! He wasn't doing Chain punches on the ground though!




MJS said:


> Well, my point was 2 fold. One: We see an awful lot of claims, that WC is an unbeatable art. IMO, there is no ultimate art. Proof further shows the worship that Royce received, yet he lost to Matt Hughes. Now, I'm not taking anything away from Royce, but I'm simply pointing that no art is unbeatable.
> 
> My second point was while this may not be the best display of WC in the cage, neither was that cheap attempt from that video clip that was posted, with the WC guy chain punching the other guy while in the mount. Basically it was an attempt to discredit BJJ/MMA.
> 
> IMHO, I feel that everyone can benefit from any style. If I didn't think so, then I wouldn't cross train, and I doubt anyone else would either. Whats sad, is that there're so many people wearing rose colored glasses on here, its amazing. And its not limited to WC either. There're just as many wearing them in the Kenpo world as well.
> 
> I'll use this as another example. Someone can go to med. school and become a doctor. In Sijes' world, that is all you need. Just a general doctor. Yet some go on to further their studies and become a specialist in a certain area. Goes to show that a regular doc. can't always give the best advise. If he can't, he usually suggests going to a specialist. He recommends someone to go to. No different here. As a Kenpo guy, I have a number of takedown defenses. Yet, if I want to further expand on that, I go to a grappler, the specialist on the ground. Same with a knife. Kenpo has knife in it, yet, I can and do, go to Arnis and a few other FMAs to expand on that.


----------



## mook jong man

Eru Ilúvatar;1116125 said:
			
		

> Interesting video... It turns out this Falkner guy has been training WC since 83 and has also studied with Lo Man Kam. He has also thought the military-Navy Seals teams 2 and 4.


 
If he's been training since 1983 that is very bloody sad mate , purely from the vision of him training in his school he hasn't even got basic speed . If I can see every single hand technique like I could with that guy then you are not fast in my opinion .

  I'm just comparing to the speed of my own instructors who's movements were pretty much a blur , and they didn't go around calling themselves a Sifu , they were just instructors . As for teaching the Navy Seals he must of pulled a pretty good con job to get that gig .

 Its just very dissappointing to see , that some one with a mediocre skill level is handed the rank of Sifu , this sort of thing is an epidemic , not just in Wing Chun , but across the martial arts world . 

People in our system after about 20 years are lucky to be called a junior master and that is only if you are up to standard and have been thoroughly tested by both Sifu and Sigung . 

The ranks these days are given out far too easily in my opinion and I think it is only going to get worse , because we are ruled by the mighty dollar .


----------



## The Last Legionary

:dramaqueen:opcorn::sadsong:


----------



## MJS

Yoshiyahu said:


> I like your analogy. You have some who are general Martial Artist. They train a little boxing, hung gar and aikido. Then you have some who are specialist they train or specialize only Judo or Only Tai Chi. Its best to learn from a specialist in martial arts then a person who studies a little bit of everything from numerous systems. But any way nothing wrong with learning a little from other arts.
> 
> I personally have no problem with BJJ. If you practice BJJ your probably a better wrestler than me. But I am the type who dislikes the whole ground thing. I don't really like ground fighting. I perfer punches and kicks flying and blocks and deflections intercepting. Thats what I like to see. People transition from stance to stance in hand to hand combat. As for BJJ I personally think a Judo or Japanese Jutjitsu or Aikijuijitsu would be a better art than BJJ...thats my opinion i could be wrong. But the art really depends on the person.
> 
> But if I wanted to learn how to fight using BJJ i wouldn't learn BJJ i would learn MMA. Because most of the time BJJ guys get the crap beat out of them by your average MMA guys!
> 
> Just my opinion. MMA guys seem more condition and better fighters than BJJ guys. But I willing to test your skill sometime. Very interesting. I cant wait to try this one MMA school in my town. It looks interesting from the site. An it seems like its great place to be to have constant sparring partners!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But ne way. I just don't really like how wrestling looks. To me its okay if I am fighting a smaller opponent I would want to wrestle but someone alot bigger than me I feel no matter how much I practice BJJ it would be useless against a gigantic sumo wrestler or 6'4" football player!
> 
> Just my opinion I could be wrong...
> 
> Actually the first video wasn't really a slam against BJJ. Actually it shows a guy getting taking to the ground and pounded! He wasn't doing Chain punches on the ground though!


 
BJJ is only one part of the puzzle for a MMA fighter.  Likewise, its the same for me.  The thing that seems to be constantly getting missed, either accidentally or on purpose for the sake of arguing, is that nobody said that going to the ground and looking for a submission is the thing to do.  I've given examples of what I use it for, so I'm not repeating them again.  I, as well as many others, have also said that BJJ is not the only ground art.  I guess its been missed that Judo, Sambo and Wrestling have also been suggested.  People keep on harping on BJJ.


----------



## mook jong man

The bottom line is if you don't practice some form of ground fighting of some type with your Wing Chun then you are unprepared for reality , and it means you are sailing a boat down that river in Egypt .

DENIAL


----------



## Yoshiyahu

I guess this is in response to me. I have also mentioned Judo and other Arts in past. But right now I am harpening on BJJ for those who it concerns. My Qualifying statement is infact this:



> But if I wanted to learn how to fight using BJJ i wouldn't learn BJJ i would learn MMA. Because most of the time BJJ guys get the crap beat out of them by your average MMA guys!


 



MJS said:


> BJJ is only one part of the puzzle for a MMA fighter. Likewise, its the same for me. The thing that seems to be constantly getting missed, either accidentally or on purpose for the sake of arguing, is that nobody said that going to the ground and looking for a submission is the thing to do. I've given examples of what I use it for, so I'm not repeating them again. I, as well as many others, have also said that BJJ is not the only ground art. I guess its been missed that Judo, Sambo and Wrestling have also been suggested. People keep on harping on BJJ.


----------



## Seeker

I think the problem found in a lot of arts is looking for things in the art that aren't there.

I was told that a quan sua can stop a double leg takedown; I was also told in Judo that ippon seoinage can be used against the rightcross, and with TKD kicks no one can get close enough to punch or grab you... etc.

Much of it sounds plausible; some of it can be pulled off in the ideal training environment with a compliant opponent. But in reality, not so much.


----------



## Si-Je

elder999 said:


> So, I have more questions-I'll spare you the overly personal, intrusive and downright disrespectful ones like "where is your hu-_er_-_SIFU_ stationed, and what rank is he?"
> 
> I am...._confused_, though. I've seen the MCMAP material, both throught MCMAP trained people and the manual(s). Isn't a large component of it Brazilian jujitsu derived ground-fighting? Being a "4th degree MCMAP instructor" would mean that he has BJJ as a component in his skill-set. I won't say that he's diluted or polluted his "pure wing chun," but I have to wonder just how it is he manages to keep his _peanut butter off his chocolate,_ so to speak.....:lol:
> [/size]


 
No.  BJJ wasn't in the curriculum. It's a drill for fun. They do in the sand. Not apart of the actual combat training. That would not be useful with 100lbs of gear and armor on with a machine gun in you hands. 
I'll let him anwser you ignorant questions when he gets home.


----------



## Si-Je

dungeonworks said:


> Here again the :BSmeter: approaches dangerous levels. Have you ever watched the UFC or other MMA competition? How about a real fight at the bar or wherever? Ever notice that MMA is the closest thing out there to a real fight aside a few rules? The results you believe from these punches and kicks less often as dramatic as you seem to believe....but the funniest part was the suggestion of Tan-ing out of an armbar in that earlier post! That one was priceless! So far, that is the only move you have picked apart from BJJ and now because Yoshi puts up a 30 second video of a guy in the mount, you think BJJ doesn't have an answer for it. That shows ignorance of BJJ....LOT's of it....To borrow from MJS, I am speechless...


 
MMA isn't real fighting.
Pick another BJJ technique, your choice, I'll tell you the counter.
And BJJ doesn't have an "answer" to being pummelled like that.


----------



## Si-Je

elder999 said:


> Soooo......_I've got questions._
> 
> Like, *which is it, 2-6 or 5-8 "pounds of pressure?"*
> 
> Like, which is it "pounds of pressure," or _"pounds of *force*?"_
> 
> 
> Which joint are you referring to? Does it take the same amount (of force, pressure or whatever) to break a finger as it does an elbow? What about a shoulder?
> What about a _knee?_
> 
> Which anatomy text did you derive that little factoid from?
> 
> Do you mean "break the joint," or "rupture the articular cartilage capsule?"
> 
> Perhaps you mean _rupture the medial ligament and collateral ligaments, also called the "joint capsule", releasing synovial fluid_ though I doubt it-maybe "rupture the annular ligament?" Maybe just "rupture the lateral epicondyle," though, again, I doubt it.
> 
> Have you ever actually "broken a joint," or had one broken?
> 
> Do you mean "use the whole body" for the movement devoted to the kansetsu waza, or use the whole body to control the other person's body?
> 
> Or neither, perhaps?
> 
> 
> 
> But, if I understand you correctly, you have no problem with a "chunner" cross training in, say, Japanese jujutsu, or judo-it's just BJJ you have a beef with, right?


 
Depends on the joint and the muscle mass around the joint.
I like JJJ I'm just not a fan of alot of mixing WC with BJJ. I don't see the two mixing well, and find that WC "answers" most attacks that you come across in a very effecient way.
I don't see BJJ as anywhere near as effecient. Just an opinion.

To use your whole body to lock out an elbow is not effecient in my view.


----------



## Si-Je

mook jong man said:


> The bottom line is if you don't practice some form of ground fighting of some type with your Wing Chun then you are unprepared for reality , and it means you are sailing a boat down that river in Egypt .
> 
> DENIAL


 
I don't think anyone's saying that. Groundfighting has been apart of MA forever. I just study a different ground fighting style.

And for Elder, if you want to know who he's studied under it's been posted on the forum many times. And no, he's not active duty anymore. 18 years was enough for him. lol! After Iraq part one, and Afganastan he left service. 
Ask Force Recon how much they use BJJ. lol!


----------



## MJS

Si-Je said:


> MMA isn't real fighting.
> Pick another BJJ technique, your choice, I'll tell you the counter.
> And BJJ doesn't have an "answer" to being pummelled like that.


 
I would tell you a possible solution, but why bother...you'd just argue and disregard it like you have everything else.


----------



## jarrod

Si-Je said:


> No.  BJJ wasn't in the curriculum. It's a drill for fun. They do in the sand. Not apart of the actual combat training. That would not be useful with 100lbs of gear and armor on with a machine gun in you hands.
> I'll let him anwser you ignorant questions when he gets home.



nothing in marine corps training is "just for fun".  we covered very simple guard passing in boot camp, though it wasn't the focus in our hand-to-hand.

jf


----------



## elder999

Si-Je said:


> No. BJJ wasn't in the curriculum. It's a drill for fun. They do in the sand. Not apart of the actual combat training. That would not be useful with 100lbs of gear and armor on with a machine gun in you hands.


 
It was my understanding that BJJ was incorporated as part of the curriculum, in part because of the Marines possibly being deployed in situations where they weren't actually "in actual combat," or, at least, in situations where less than lethal force might be in order.In any case, apparently the Marines do think it would be useful at some time, because they did make it part of the curriculum.

Of course, even if it's just "a drill for fun," it becomes part of the skillset-especially that of a "4th degree black belt instructor."

In any case, here's what Lt. Col. Shusko, one of the main _creators_ and designers of the program, has to say about MCMAP and BJJ:



> Among the fighting styles appropriated for MCMAP, *Col. Shusko demonstrates the grappling techniques of Brazilian jujitsu, which mostly consists of ground-fighting submission holds and joint locks that he likes to call "wristy twisties."*
> 
> These techniques are designed to control the enemy, to break bones and, if necessary, to kill.
> Col. Shusko also teaches throwing techniques according to the Japanese art of judo and kicking skills from the Korean style of self-defense known as tae kwon do.
> In addition, Thai boxing -- with its emphasis on elbow and knee strikes to inflict damage -- figures into the MCMAP curriculum.
> "We did not invent anything," Col. Shusko says, "Just took the best and put it into our program."
> Since lethal force is not always needed in defensive situations, the colonel schools his trainees in techniques similar to those used by U.S. police officers to make arrests or subdue suspects.
> But MCMAP training involves more than merely learning how to fight. It's about learning how to be a modern-day warrior -- tough, confident and able without the ego-gratifying need to prove it.
> It's about entering a bar and knowing you can handle any situation that may occur, not sizing up the competition and picking a fight, Col. Shusko says.


 
Seen here


Of course, you can also view the protocol for MCMAP online, at Marine Corps Order 1500.54. Please note that on page 24, where the requirements for gray belt are listed, a "Groundfighting" component appears for the first time. In it, the trainee is expected to execute an "armbar from the _mount_," and an "armbar from the _guard_" terms that, while no longer exclusive to BJJ, come to the lexicon directly _from_ BJJ. Of course, growing up, I knew the guard as _do __jime_, or _do osae_, but they were pretty much illegal in judo.

Please also note that the groundfighting component continues and expands through rank requirements listed through 1st degree black belt, including the infamous "triangle choke." :lol:



Si-Je said:


> I'll let him anwser you ignorant questions when he gets home.


 
"Ignorant questions?" Isn't that "somewhat redundant," perhaps even "_overly_ redundant?" :lfao:

I mean, not actually being a Marine-I only work with a few of them from time to time-I'll admit my ignorance;_that's why I'm asking questions._ Of course, my confusion stems from what little I do know-having been told and shown as much by a _few good men_, and seen for myself in manuals and on video. I anxiously await enlightenment....:asian:



jarrod said:


> nothing in marine corps training is "just for fun". we covered very simple guard passing in boot camp, though it wasn't the focus in our hand-to-hand.
> 
> jf


 
I'm sure a few other Marines will chime in, if only to supplement my obviously limited knowledge. Thanks, Jarrod.


----------



## elder999

Si-Je said:


> And for Elder, if you want to know who he's studied under it's been posted on the forum many times.!


 
Actually, while I may have missed it, after having reviewed all of your and Mystic Wolf's posts, I have to say that, no, that information hasn't been posted on the forum "many times."

Of course, just typing the names would have been just as easy as your answer, and WAAAAAY easier than searching for the information.


----------



## elder999

Si-Je said:


> Depends on the joint and the muscle mass around the joint.


 
Well, no-while the muscle mass and the use of it may prevent the joint in question from being locked, the _amount of *force*_ required to "break" the joint isn't dependent upon muscle mass at all, _once the lock has been achieved._



Si-Je said:


> I like JJJ I'm just not a fan of alot of mixing WC with BJJ I don't see the two mixing well, and find that WC "answers" most attacks that you come across in a very effecient way.
> I don't see BJJ as anywhere near as effecient. Just an opinion.


 
Hmmm....does that mean that you're in favor of mixing WC with JJJ? Or not? 

WC "answers" most standing attacks, and it's principles can be applied by the adept person on the ground, but I don't (and here's where I'm gonna chime in on the original question) see that mixing the two is a bad thing at all-you train in BJJ and you learn more about what the person who has that kind of trianing will do on the ground, and other ways of countering it. You also get comfortable with being on the ground, _so there isn't so much *panic* in trying to regain your feet_ in a self-defense situation. And, since there is _grappling_ in WC, albeit of the stand-up variety, it blends nicely with takedown techniques found in judo, JJJ and more traditional BJJ-that is to say, BJJ not geared towards MMA and tournaments.



Si-Je said:


> To use your whole body to lock out an elbow is not effecient in my view.


 
Still not really sure what you mean by this-or sure that you know what you mean by it, at any rate.

"Using the whole body" in *any* technique, is what some would call the very _height_ of _efficiency_-but that's almost another discussion.......


----------



## KamonGuy2

I can't believe we are still here. 

I as looking through youtub last night and I actually found seminars hosted jointly by Samuel Kwok and Carlson Gracie

I know that James Sinclair invites Rick Young (black belt BJJ) to help teach his students

I just think Si jee is very proud of wing chun and his afraid of 'polluting' it with another style

The point she is missing is that wing chun has already been polluted

If you go back a hundred years, most karate systems will remain the same (same moves etc)
Wing chun however will be extremely different. Even Ip Chun mentions that chum kil was changed from when his father taught it to various practitioners, and that was 40/50 years ago

I understand that people want to get away from complimenting their art with another style for fear of being labelled MMA, but sometimes you just have to know the arts limits

I really do hate this high almighty attitude that wing chun is the best thing out there. It is a great art and very useful, but it is not flawless

For further clarification just type in wing chun vs into youtube and see where people fail (rigid guards, fixed traditional moves etc)

BJJ practitioners are extremely humble and most of the time have no need to argue about these kind of things. They know that realistically they need to strike and so most BJJ guys take up boxing or MT or karate for something different

They don't spend hours arguing on a forum about the purity of BJJ. Those who do train in boxing etc - they are still good BJJ practitioners (ie the boxing hasn't taken anything away from their art), so why should wing chunners be any different. 

Anyway, this is getting boring. Elder and MJS - if you're ever in the London area I'll take you for a pint. Si-jee - you aren't invited lol


----------



## profesormental

Kamon Guy, I agree with your assessment.

It is a personal decision to train in other methods, and Wing Chun changes with each passing generation. And that is ok.

As mentioned before, in the 50's and 60's, there were so few martial artists that most would train with everyone they could, just to have people to train with! They shared and learned because they were very dedicated to becoming better.

Well, that is an opportunity that we still have. And I decide to take it.

The question is what can be learned from this discussion at this point?

Juan M. Mercado


----------



## elder999

profesormental said:


> The question is what can be learned from this discussion at this point?
> 
> Juan M. Mercado


 

That Si-Je's hubby is probably going to get _owned_ in the cage if it goes to the ground? :lfao:


----------



## Seeker

[LEFT said:
			
		

> *profesormental*[/LEFT];1117424]
> The question is what can be learned from this discussion at this point?
> 
> Juan M. Mercado



Some people will take the journey across the river, but will refuse to leave the boat believing the boat to be the destination?


----------



## MJS

Kamon Guy said:


> I can't believe we are still here.


 
In all honesty, neither can I.  I think I will be bowing out of this thread.  The horse is dead 10 times over and won't be coming back to life. 



> I as looking through youtub last night and I actually found seminars hosted jointly by Samuel Kwok and Carlson Gracie
> 
> I know that James Sinclair invites Rick Young (black belt BJJ) to help teach his students
> 
> I just think Si jee is very proud of wing chun and his afraid of 'polluting' it with another style
> 
> The point she is missing is that wing chun has already been polluted
> 
> If you go back a hundred years, most karate systems will remain the same (same moves etc)
> Wing chun however will be extremely different. Even Ip Chun mentions that chum kil was changed from when his father taught it to various practitioners, and that was 40/50 years ago
> 
> I understand that people want to get away from complimenting their art with another style for fear of being labelled MMA, but sometimes you just have to know the arts limits
> 
> I really do hate this high almighty attitude that wing chun is the best thing out there. It is a great art and very useful, but it is not flawless
> 
> For further clarification just type in wing chun vs into youtube and see where people fail (rigid guards, fixed traditional moves etc)


 
Great points.  I doubt that there is anything 100% pure out there.  As proof of that, if that were the case, then every (insert art here) would be teaching the same.  Every Kenpo guy would look identical, every TKD guy would, as well as every boxer, BJJ guy, etc.  It is nice to know though, that the folks you mention above, are open minded enough to expand their WC and bring in a BJJ person.



> BJJ practitioners are extremely humble and most of the time have no need to argue about these kind of things. They know that realistically they need to strike and so most BJJ guys take up boxing or MT or karate for something different


 
I've seen quite a few that seem to think that you dont need striking, and that only BJJ will suffice.  I think we saw proof of this with Royce and Matt.  Royces striking skill was less than impressive IMO.  



> They don't spend hours arguing on a forum about the purity of BJJ. Those who do train in boxing etc - they are still good BJJ practitioners (ie the boxing hasn't taken anything away from their art), so why should wing chunners be any different.


 
Oh, you'd be surprised.  Of course, I'm sure there are some that do fall into the category that you mention though, and those are the more open minded ones. 



> Anyway, this is getting boring. Elder and MJS - if you're ever in the London area I'll take you for a pint. Si-jee - you aren't invited lol


 
Thank you for the offer.


----------



## Si-Je

elder999 said:


> Well, no-while the muscle mass and the use of it may prevent the joint in question from being locked, the _amount of *force*_ required to "break" the joint isn't dependent upon muscle mass at all, _once the lock has been achieved._
> .......


 
sigh, so you say. I'll go with the guy that's studied body mechanics.  I'll go with the JJJ teachers that taught me those techniques in the first place. I'll go with my own experiece of achieving the joint lock will little force and little effort. Chin Na makes these techniques even more effecient.  



elder999 said:


> Hmmm....does that mean that you're in favor of mixing WC with JJJ? Or not? ........


 
No.  I tried to do that when I first started training WC. It doesn't work simply because you have to use both hands to lock out the joint. you use both hands with kote gashie, both hands with armbars, both hands with chokes, both hand with throws.  WC/WT does this with one hand. same joint lock just very small and subtle differences. 



elder999 said:


> WC "answers" most standing attacks, and it's principles can be applied by the adept person on the ground, but I don't (and here's where I'm gonna chime in on the original question) see that mixing the two is a bad thing at all-you train in BJJ and you learn more about what the person who has that kind of trianing will do on the ground, and other ways of countering it. You also get comfortable with being on the ground, _so there isn't so much *panic* in trying to regain your feet_ in a self-defense situation. And, since there is _grappling_ in WC, albeit of the stand-up variety, it blends nicely with takedown techniques found in judo, JJJ and more traditional BJJ-that is to say, BJJ not geared towards MMA and tournaments........


 
Do you train wing chun?
Well, there's alot of misconceptions on WC especially WT and the ground fighting developed by Sifu Emin. We teach beginning anti-grappling techniques to students from the outset but the really good stuff you can't get into until the student learns Chun Kiu.
I see that mixing the two is detrimental if your going to learn the last range in WC/WT.  By replacing grappling with WC/WT techniques at that range teachers are losing this range by simply not teaching it, and replacing it with BJJ.  I don't like to see this happen, especially since I'm just now really learning this range of WC/WT combat.
The good thing out of all this is that chatting on here has refined my WC/WT theory especially in advanced anti-grappling. You really just can't explain it online or in videos.  You HAVE to feel it.  We drilled Bong Girk last night on the ground and it was awesome! That 'leg chi sau" I keep referring too. Like bong sau with your leg. exactly like bong sau on with your leg and used against grappling technqiues to "pass your guard", get between your legs, pass a leg to get to your side, and the mount. Thwarts these attempts very well.  



elder999 said:


> Still not really sure what you mean by this-or sure that you know what you mean by it, at any rate........


 
What on earth is he doing here? Is your opponent just going to stand there while you flip your legs into the air and jump on the arm?!
How is this akin to WC/WT principle? Apples and Oranges.




 
I hate this guard.




For the Wing Chunners, instead of locking your ankles out behind them. turn your knees inward like WC basic stance with abduction and use foreward force/pressure with the knees to keep their body weight off you while defending with the hands from your back.  Warding off chokes, locks, punches just like chi sau. 

This looks like a great way to get your neck broken. If the guy is strong enough to pick you up by the very legs you latch around his waiste then he can slam you on your back/neck to the ground.  How is this advantageous? How do you defend against another person that may help him attack you while your on the ground messing with the first attacker? 
Then as he changes his leg position his face is open for punches. What if a WC'er was standing there and chainpunching his face?  Would he remember this technique that takes a long time to switch from one position to another? Seems like alot of work just to get an ankle lock. And the opponent can get you in the very same lock. lol! I've seen that happen in fights plenty!




 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiafSZMl5Kk 


elder999 said:


> "Using the whole body" in *any* technique, is what some would call the very _height_ of _efficiency_-but that's almost another discussion.......


 
Not like that.  Too much work, takes too long, too many movements.


----------



## MJS

profesormental said:


> Kamon Guy, I agree with your assessment.
> 
> It is a personal decision to train in other methods, and Wing Chun changes with each passing generation. And that is ok.
> 
> As mentioned before, in the 50's and 60's, there were so few martial artists that most would train with everyone they could, just to have people to train with! They shared and learned because they were very dedicated to becoming better.
> 
> Well, that is an opportunity that we still have. And I decide to take it.
> 
> The question is what can be learned from this discussion at this point?
> 
> Juan M. Mercado


 
For the sake of sticking with the forum rules, I'll modify what I'd really like to say. LOL!  Serious though, I think that you see a few different groups.  They are as follows...

Group 1:  This group is dead set against anything other than what is contained in their base art.  They will not allow anything to 'taint' their base art.

Group 2: This group is open minded and is open to suggestions from others.  They have no issues with working with others, and if it means adding in something that is not part of their base art, they do so.


----------



## MJS

elder999 said:


> That Si-Je's hubby is probably going to get _owned_ in the cage if it goes to the ground? :lfao:


 
You're lucky I wasn't drinking anything when I read this, otherwise, you'd owe me a new keyboard.


----------



## Si-Je

elder999 said:


> That Si-Je's hubby is probably going to get _owned_ in the cage if it goes to the ground? :lfao:


 

Hasn't happened yet. lol!
You really pride yourself on being rude, and assuming you know what another fighter will do whom you've never met.  Just making an *** out of u but not me. lol!

He's used what he knows in true combat and didn't have a lick of use for BJJ in Recon.  Get real.


----------



## Si-Je

MJS said:


> For the sake of sticking with the forum rules, I'll modify what I'd really like to say. LOL! Serious though, I think that you see a few different groups. They are as follows...
> 
> Group 1: This group is dead set against anything other than what is contained in their base art. They will not allow anything to 'taint' their base art.
> 
> Group 2: This group is open minded and is open to suggestions from others. They have no issues with working with others, and if it means adding in something that is not part of their base art, they do so.


 
There is NO group 1.  Apparently just me and Sifu. Yoshi seem to agree.  It doesn't have anything to do with "tainting" my base art. It has to do with USING my base art to the full extent of it's technique.

It seems that Group 2 either trains WC as a secondary art to give stand up "game" to their base art of BJJ or grappling. Or they just don't have any faith in WC when it comes to the street or the ground.  Don't bother to learn to strike at grappling range, learn the chin na starting from Chum Kiu.  Their willing to learn a whole 'nutta art to supplement their WC/WT but are not openminded enough to even attempt to apply the WC principles and concepts to ground combat.  Or even TRY the anti-grappling in the Kwoon/Gym.


----------



## Si-Je

Kamon Guy said:


> Anyway, this is getting boring. Elder and MJS - if you're ever in the London area I'll take you for a pint. Si-jee - you aren't invited lol


 

I have no desire to train with a WC stylist that doesn't believe in his own art. And I only drink with those I like.


----------



## The Last Legionary

Table for 2!


----------



## Si-Je

elder999 said:


> Actually, while I may have missed it, after having reviewed all of your and Mystic Wolf's posts, I have to say that, no, that information hasn't been posted on the forum "many times."
> 
> Of course, just typing the names would have been just as easy as your answer, and WAAAAAY easier than searching for the information.


 
Not that it will matter to you or anyone here.
He's trained with Sifu Jim Fung, and Sifu Emin Boztepe. When he trained with Boztepe that's when he was helping to develop MCMAP, they use some of the anti-grappling although they may not reconize it as that. BJJ wasn't even around when hubbie was training in the marine corps.  Several seargents worked on developing MCMAP. They mixed Aiki Ju-Jitsu, muy tai, Kempo, Judo, and yes, even a bit of WC.  

This has been stated by me several times here. Right here in the WC forum.


----------



## MJS

Si-Je said:


> I have no desire to train with a WC stylist that doesn't believe in his own art. And I only drink with those I like.


 
Difference.  We can have someone who is totally clueless and blind and someone who is still loyal, but has their eyes open.  

Sorry, I disagree with you sije.  I'm loyal to Kenpo.  I've been doing it for 24yrs.  I'm just not wearing rose colored glasses and keep my cup empty and open to new things.

That is another goal of the arts...to be humble, and to accept the fact that nobody or no one is perfect or ultimate.


----------



## elder999

Si-Je said:


> Not that it will matter to you or anyone here.
> He's trained with Sifu Jim Fung, and Sifu Emin Boztepe. When he trained with Boztepe that's when he was helping to develop MCMAP, they use some of the anti-grappling although they may not reconize it as that. BJJ wasn't even around when hubbie was training in the marine corps. Several seargents worked on developing MCMAP. They mixed Aiki Ju-Jitsu, muy tai, Kempo, Judo, and yes, even a bit of WC.
> 
> This has been stated by me several times here. Right here in the WC forum.


 
Okay, that's better-see how easy it was? You could even have just done this:



Si-Je said:


> He's trained with Sifu Jim Fung, and Sifu Emin Boztepe.


:lol:

I'll take another look at the rest of what you had to say-like, I'm a little curious about the age of "hubby," and when he served. I mean, BJJ's been _"around"_ since around 1921, when Helio Gracie observed his brothers training in the judo his family learned, and it's been in the U.S. since the 80's, when Rorion Gracie started teaching there. Additionally, the Marine Corps didn't develop MCMAOP until some time between 1997 and 1999, and didn't officially _implement_ it until 2000. BJJ was certainly around at the time, in any case-even during when the Marines were using the LINE system....



			
				Si-Je said:
			
		

> You really pride yourself on being rude,


 
Not being rude, _yet_. THough I have to ask, are you taking any medication? Seriously._Haldol?Clozapine? Lithium Carbonate?_

The reason I ask is that I did a little search for "Jim Fung" among your posts, and I found this nugget, which I've added some emphasis to:





Si-Je said:


> *WT is made to change and evolve*. Many schools don't want to do this, they stay with the old and don't try the new. Bruce Lee changed WC, anti-grappling is a new concept for many people who don't want to accept it as Wing Chun concept. This is very unfortunate, for them. *I am still relatively new to WC, but my openness has allowed me to be more accepting of new ideas, and techniques, and to reconize it's weaknesses.* Thus, I have learned much from my teacher. Who's teacher was both Fung and Emin. He's taken two different styles of WT/WC and combined them.
> 
> I've very happy about this, because it just makes better wing chun. Most in the art won't share and combine their skills, their too busy fussing, arguing, declaring who's the best, and critizising to stop and learn something from eachother. Real bummer, dude.
> 
> Like kids in a playground, their missing out on something better than ego, who's right, who's better, which style is "pure", etc. Both of my teachers teachers come directly from Yip Man. Fung we're third generation from Yip man, and same on Ling Ting side. Pretty good "lineage". lol!
> the whole lineage thing always make me feel like I'm a thurobred horse or something! lol!
> 
> Relax peoples! and learn to be open to try new stuff. look at it on video all you want, but don't make up your mind before you try it. You'll miss out.


 
Earlier in that same thread, you also posted that Emin had studied, in addition to Turkish Wrestling, _Brazilian jujitsu._

So, I gotta wonder what your beef is-and apparently, it's one that you have with yourself, even-hence the "rude" medication question....:lfao:


----------



## The Last Legionary

No single art holds all the answers, and it's an arrogant fool who thinks it does.
Wing Chun is a wonderful art, but so are many others, equally good.
Kenpo has a stick section, but it pales compared to the information found in the FMA.
BJJ doesn't have weapon techniques.
Iaido and Aikido compliment each other because each fills in what the other lacks.
and so on.
Wing Chun has components for a ground game, and for weapon game, but both are better developed in other arts. Now, it's possible that SiJi's branch has added and expended to encompass a more robust skill set, but that doesn't make it Wing Chun, not in the pure sense.  That makes it MMA. Without the cuddling.

(Puts in ear plugs to block out the coming screech)


----------



## MJS

Off the martial arts topic for a minute.  Let me ask the following.

Is someone who goes to med. school wrong for wanting to specialize in something other than just being a gen. pract.?  So a guy that wants to focus on sports medicine, one that wants to focus on the heart, one that wants to focus on plastic surgery, one that wants to focus on ears/nose/throat, one that wants to focus on eyes.  They all must be wrong and they've tainted their medical future because they went on.

What about a chef?  Go to culinary school and you'll learn about this and that.  But, if you wanted to focus on pastery or food from a particular culture.  Those people must be wrong.

What about a builder.  Hmm...he has a guy for the foundation, for electrical, for plumbing.  One guy can't do it all, so his houses must be ****, because he needs specialists to help him.  

What about a high school teacher?  You have some that focus on math, some that focus on Spanish, Franch or Italian, some that focus on computers.  Should one teacher be able to do it all?  They all must suck because they go off and focus on a certain area.

Sigh...why do I even bother anymore.


----------



## The Last Legionary

There is nothing wrong with specializing.
What is wrong is specializing and insisting you aren't.
I see an excellent chiroprctor, but I don't rely on him as the sole source of healing.


----------



## MJS

elder999 said:


> Okay, that's better-see how easy it was? You could even have just done this:
> 
> 
> :lol:
> 
> I'll take another look at the rest of what you had to say-like, I'm a little curious about the age of "hubby," and when he served. I mean, BJJ's been _"around"_ since around 1921, when Helio Gracie observed his brothers training in the judo his family learned, and it's been in the U.S. since the 80's, when Rorion Gracie started teaching there. Additionally, the Marine Corps didn't develop MCMAOP until some time between 1997 and 1999, and didn't officially _implement_ it until 2000. BJJ was certainly around at the time, in any case-even during when the Marines were using the LINE system....
> 
> 
> 
> Not being rude, _yet_. THough I have to ask, are you taking any medication? Seriously._Haldol?Clozapine? Lithium Carbonate?_
> 
> The reason I ask is that I did a little search for "Jim Fung" among your posts, and I found this nugget, which I've added some emphasis to:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Earlier in that same thread, you also posted that Emin had studied, in addition to Turkish Wrestling, _Brazilian jujitsu._
> 
> So, I gotta wonder what your beef is-and apparently, it's one that you have with yourself, even-hence the "rude" medication question....:lfao:


 
*pulling up a chair, grabbing some opcorn: and a cool :drinkbeereagerly awaiting the reply to this gem.*  And yes, yes indeed, that was quite the nugget of info.  Hmm...correct me if I'm wrong, but me thinks that theres a bit of contradicting wording from that post, to what she preaches lately.


----------



## The Last Legionary

opcorn::drinkbeer:lfao:


----------



## dungeonworks

Si-Je said:


> MMA isn't real fighting.
> Pick another BJJ technique, your choice, I'll tell you the counter.
> And BJJ doesn't have an "answer" to being pummelled like that.



You are correct.  MMA isn't *real *fighting, and is a sport, but it's the closest thing we have to *real *fighting without the loss of eyes or death.  Also, there is full contact with minimal padding, take downs, stand up striking, ground striking, submissions, wrestling...ect.  With the removal of a few rules, you do have a fight and therefore the technique is relevant as well as pressure testing various techniques.  

IMHO and past experiences in various situations/confrontations, MMA would have been very useful.  It is downright funny that some on here will hurry up and post all the hoo-rah about Wing Chun fighting in the cage in one thread only to turn around in another and tout how it isn't meant for the cage and MMA isn't real fighting and that Wing Chun is the total ULTIMATE combat system that other styles "No can defend!" (Mr. Myagi).  I agree that Wing Chun is a great and full art, but as with ALL of martial arts, none have the complete answer for everybody.

...then there is BJJ.  You totally discount the art and that is fine, we all have opinions.  What is laughable though, is this disdain and spite you have for an art that is proven and has been for a hundred years with film footage to boot!  I have never ever seen any real Wing Chun footage showing any of the masters figthing....chi sao?  Yes, but not actual fighting.  Any of the full contact "sparring" (sparring isn't a real fight, and just a sport, right? :uhyeah clips I have seen claiming to be Wing Chun are shot down by other Chunner's in the comment areas.  Things like "his structure sucked" or "totally used the bong sau wrong, that ain't Wing Chun!" and "That isn't real Wing Chun, he should have just tan'ed out of that rear-naked-choke!"....not exact quotes, but you can read comments on any given YouTube or Google video you like.  Wing Chunner's cannot even agree on what constitutes Wing Chun....UNLESS A CLAIMED CHUNNER WINS, then it is just a big SEE, WING CHUN WORKS IN MMA!!! chorus.  When the chunner loses, you hear the comments of it wasn't real wing chun or wing chun isn't made for the ring....take your pick.


The whole start of this thread was born from reading an article about Sam Kwok and Carlson Gracie Jr. and listening to master's of their respective style discuss meshing the stand-up of Wing Chun and BJJ.  Seeing that Carlon Gracie Jr. has documented footage of his fights and is very experienced in fighting, I found it nice to see someone of his martial pedigree see something in Wing Chun and vise versa with Sam Kwok.  That is all.  Nothing more.

Then, as similarly happens on _*EVERY*_ Wing Chun forum in cyberspace, *the two fearless leaders of the Wing Chun blinder wearing bandwagon* came out, derailed thread...and the rest is history.


----------



## dungeonworks

Si-Je said:


> I have no desire to train with a WC stylist that doesn't believe in his own art. And I only drink with those I like.




That's funny, I thought you mentioned Kamon owed you a pint if you were ever in London....5-6 pages later you won't drink with him??? LOL


----------



## elder999

dungeonworks said:


> That's funny, I thought you mentioned Kamon owed you a pint if you were ever in London....5-6 pages later you won't drink with him??? LOL


 
_Shhhh!_ I'm *right*-she's obviously off her meds....:lfao:


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Lets lose the personal shots folks.


----------



## elder999

Bob Hubbard said:


> Lets lose the personal shots folks.


 

You're right. I apologize,

Si-Je, I'm sorry about the whole "medication" thing. 

I also apologize to anyone else who takes anti-psychotics, or other medication-that was insensitive of me....:asian:


----------



## Steve

*Cognitive Dissonance: *In psychology, cognitive dissonance is an _uncomfortable feeling or stress caused by holding two contradictory ideas simultaneously_. The theory of cognitive dissonance proposes that people have a fundamental cognitive drive to reduce this dissonance by modifying an existing belief, or *rejecting one of the contradictory ideas.*


----------



## Si-Je

Yes Elder I find you very rude, and condesending. And unable to take or even understand a joke. 
And no, I don't see BJJ as a very capable self-defense style. It works great in the ring, especially MMA rules which allow it to excell.
I know many people like to train it, and many that do are good folks. But I meet many, usually online, that are very arrogant and close minded about ground fighting. They and YOU seem to feel that it is the unbeatable ground fighting style. 
I have found that to be untrue. I've had different experiences with BJJ because I don't fight a BJJ stylist with BJJ.

If Sifu Emin studied other grappling arts does that totally negate the anti-grappling he derived from that knowledge? There is a big difference between learning a grappling style and adding it to your WC curriculum and studing it to discover how it can be beaten using WC techniques and principles.
Sifu Emin studied most of those other arts before he even trained WT. He trained TKD (or some variant) boxing, turkish wrestling too. But, later he started training WT. Someone like him who has been in MA for most of his life is bound to have trained other arts. Does this fact make his WT less "pure" or less of a traditional art? I don't think so.

As for Hubbie. He's 43. He was in the USMC around 1997-2000. I think he got out in 2004-05ish. And yes, he was a MCMAP trainer and helped incoroporate what they teach today. BJJ wasn't noted until the mid to late nintys when UFC exposed it world wide, and in the states. They may have taught before then elsewhere, but most had never even heard of it. So, it's an art that's about what, 70 years old?
Pretty new art as arts go. And it's claim to fame came in the mid to late 90's? 

I do think it's pretty hilarious that the same fellas on here go constantly back and forth missing what I've been saying pretty consistantly, and still trying to change my opinion on using the art of BJJ with my WC/WT skill set. I guess I can understand why a beginning student to WC/WT would find it attractive because their not to the level yet to understand and apply the anti-grappling, and because only one school teaches it. (now two, lol!)
So it's not as readily available to every wing chunner. 
But, that doen't make it uneffective, it just makes it misunderstood. Just because there's a BJJ school everywhere you turn it's just easier to train from that school. And I do think it odd that people come to a WC thread and plug BJJ. That's pretty rude if you think about it.  I guess I should go to the BJJ threads and plug WC and treat people rudely that disagree with me. lol!
You go to a WC thread and try to force BJJ down people's throats saying their WC is useless without it, you're going to get resistance.  (I'm disapointed how little resistance. But, it seems most WC students are already under the assumption that they will be beaten by a BJJ stylist.  Their defeated before they even get into the fight/ring. Very unfortunate.)

Plus, the way I see it: It takes 10 years to learn the full system of Wing Chun. And it takes 10 years to learn the full system of BJJ. So, your looking at taking 20 years of martial arts training to achieve the same end if you just studied WC for the 10 years.
It just seems like extra work to me. Like I've said, take it if you want, it's a great sport. But, my interest lies in learning realistic street self-defense, so my goals in training are geared towards that end. 

If you see MMA as the closest thing we've got to realistic combat, that may be true. But, realize that arts that are COMPLETELY focused on realistic combat cannot use a vast majority of their technique under MMA rules. So, in essence, it's as far from realistic combat as sparring in the dojo/Kwoon/Gym. 
This perception misleads many into believing an art that does well in the ring under strict rules is a viable art in the street. I find that this could be very dangerous to someone who may find out otherwise at a point in time where their very life is on the line. Not a good time to come to realize that what you've been training hasn't prepared you to survive. Especially when fighting more than one attacker.

Many seem to believe that the way to counter WC/WT or any powerful striking art is to get the fighter in the clinch and/or take them to the ground. Why is this? It works sometimes. It's worked for Gracie in the early years of UFC when no one had EVER seen this style of fighting, and of course wasn't prepared to defend against it. 
I do recall Gracie being beaten by a midwestern wrestler. And what won the fight was the fact he struck him on the ground until they stopped the fight. 
So, what does this teach us? That striking counters out BJJ on the ground?
So, thus, can you not utilize anti-grappling and WC/WT striking while on the ground against a BJJ stylist? Sounds very probable to me. Plus, I've seen it in person. I've done it myself. Yes, in class. But, when you have a BJJ stylist "visiting" to test out your WC in class, trying to disprove everything your teaching in front of your students, I wouldn't call that guy a "compliant opponent". And they weren't. And they were countered every move with anti-grappling. And they never came back again. 
So what does that tell us? Some BJJ or MMA guys still like coming to WC schools and trying to "embarress" the Sifu? They sure do. That they feel embarressed when they cannot make the "silly sifu" look bad in front of his own students? Sure seems like it from the point of view of someone who's owned a school and experienced this several times. 

As always, our class is open to anyone who wants to train, learn, test out the style, challenge, or spar the Sifu. He loves it. He's looking for guys closer to his size and weight. So, anyone 6ft. and more (preferrably more) and 225lbs or more (again, prefferably more. lol!) please feel free to stop by and test out the anti-grappling on Sifu. He's training for MMA cage fighting and would love the practice.
Note: we do alot of this without the matts, so folks that wish to truely challenge the anti-grappling, that will be done on the hard floor as Sifu trains. If you can't handle doing BJJ on the concrete then reconcider what style you use on the concrete. Beginners in anti-grappling use the matts at our school.

As for the MCMAP, we have a student in class right now that is in the Marine Corps, and training MCMAP. He doesn't know a lick of BJJ, has never been shown BJJ. So, wherever their training it to whoever in the USMC I've yet to meet a marine that traines, knows, or even likes BJJ. The Army on the other hand traines alot of BJJ.

Anyways, very amusing to chat with BJJ and grappling stylists that are so very knowledgable in the art of Wing Chun, come to a WC thread and declare that WC technique is worthless against a "good grappler".  Based on little to no knowledge of WC/WT technique, principle, or concepts.

Quiz time grapplers:
What are the 5 principles of Wing Chun?
Go ahead and google it, post it like you know it, and then explain what each mean and how you would apply it using WC technique.  You do that, that would be a start where I might actually "listen" to what you have to say when trying to state that BJJ training complement's WC principles and concepts.


----------



## Eru IlÃºvatar

I love this thread.


----------



## elder999

Si-Je said:


> Yes Elder I find you very rude, and condesending. And unable to take or even understand a joke.


 
Pot? *Kettle*? :lfao: 

I'm not even going to get into all your erroneous info on jujutsu, locks, "two-handedness," etc., etc., etc. I'm just going to point out that by your own admission, you've only had 3 years of JJJ training....I don't want to seem condescending or anything, but that's-as jarrod pointed out-really just enough to be competent in this day and age.




Si-Je said:


> As for Hubbie. He's 43. He was in the USMC around 1997-2000. I think he got out in 2004-05ish. And yes, he was a MCMAP trainer and helped incoroporate what they teach today. BJJ wasn't noted until the mid to late nintys when UFC exposed it world wide, and in the states. They may have taught before then elsewhere, but most had never even heard of it. So, it's an art that's about what, 70 years old?


 
Actually, that makes it older than Krav Maga, and who's counting?

I don't doubt that he's all that he says he is. I do doubt that he's all that *you* say he is, since it sounds more and more like you're not quite sure what you're talking about.



Si-Je said:


> As for the MCMAP, we have a student in class right now that is in the Marine Corps, and training MCMAP. He doesn't know a lick of BJJ, has never been shown BJJ. So, wherever their training it to whoever in the USMC I've yet to meet a marine that traines, knows, or even likes BJJ. The Army on the other hand traines alot of BJJ.


 
Yeah, this looks a lot more like WC 

The Instructor's Course also appears to contain a lot of "anti-grappling." :lfao:

THis one looks pretty deadly, even with that soundtrack!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olrHBrW1Iu0&feature=related

I can post lots, and lots, and *lots* more MCMAP groundfighting that has all the elements of what you've described here as "inefficient," or undesirable-including going into a BJJ guard, "two handed" joint locks, and use of body leverage/torque-of course, that's not all the videos show in some cases, because that's not all MCMAP is-but it is a part of what it is. Heck, I've even found video of two guys grappling from the knees, ala BJJ....


----------



## JadecloudAlchemist

> What are the 5 principles of Wing Chun?


 

Is it this:





> *Go forward (&#21839;&#36335;&#23563;&#27211;&#25163;&#20808;&#34892* Advance immediately in order to establish contact with the limbs (allowing for _Chi Sao_ reflexes to take over) or &#8212; even better &#8212; to strike first. This counter intuitive reaction will often surprise the attacker, and moves the fight into a close distance in which tactile reflexes will dominate over visual reactions, where the Wing Tsun practitioner is likely to have an advantage.
> *Stick to the opponent (&#25163;&#40656;&#25163;,&#28961;&#35330;(&#22320;&#26041&#36208* If you are unable to strike and disable your opponent, but instead make contact with some part of his body (other than his face, throat, etc.), stick to it. Often this will be an opponent's arm; if you maintain constant contact with his arms, how can he launch an attack at you without your knowing? This applies for the time only when the opponent is blocking your shortest way of attack. Once there is opportunity, you give up sticking, and go in with your attack (flow).
> *Yield to a greater force (&#29992;&#24039;&#21185;&#65292;&#36991;&#25305;&#21147;-&#21363;&#20511;&#21147;&#65289;* Since one cannot expect to be stronger than every potential attacker, one must train in such a way as to be able to win even against a stronger opponent. _Chi Sao_ teaches the reflexes necessary to react to an opponent's attacks. When an attack is simply stronger than yours, your trained reflexes will tell your body to move out of the way of the attack and find another angle for attack.
> *Follow through (&#36843;&#27493;&#36861;&#24418* As an extension of the first principle, if an opponent retreats, a WingTsun practitioner's immediate response is to continue moving forward, not allowing the opponent to recover and have an opportunity to reconsider his strategy of attack. Many styles that rely on visual cues prefer to step back and wait and time their attacks, as commonly seen in sport and tournament fighting.



I find the same concepts in Judo and Jujutsu which also must be in BJJ since BJJ comes from Judo which comes from Jujutsu. I find these same concepts in every martial art at its highest level.
I find ground fighting can work in a street fight IF you know how to apply it. From the fights I have been in and the fights I have seen these things take place 1.Someone usually bridges the gap and clinches in some way 2. Someone to avoid strikes usually goes for some sort of takedown 3. Usually the person is over the person on the ground and ground and pounding him. 

Just a point of the deadly eye gouge and throat strike a grappler can apply this to so using it as a comp out as "teh deadly" does not really apply. If you feel your art is sufficient enough then thats you and not everyone is going to agree with you same as you will not agree with others to each their own.

Quick question Si Jie what Jujutsu school or Ryuha did you train in?


----------



## Steve

While off topic, regarding the Marines, McMap and BJJ, I found this interesting article from November, 08. http://www.marines.mil/units/marfor...arinesgrapplewithjiu-jitsuindeployeddojo.aspx

Among other things, the article talks about the positive benefits of teaching soldiers grappling, as well as mentioning that BJJ is one of the sub-disciplines included in the MCMAP program.



> &#8220;It motivated me that I could be a Marine and still do mixed martial arts at the same time,&#8221; Mendez said, referring to teaching MCMAP, which counts jiu-jitsu as one of its sub-disciplines. &#8220;So it&#8217;s very nice to be able to bring this to the Marines while we&#8217;re out here in Iraq.&#8221;
> 
> It&#8217;s a fun pastime for Lance Cpl. Dana Hineline, who provides convoy security with CLB-2, but she also sees immediate application of jiu-jitsu to her Marine duties.
> &#8220;If I ever have to stop someone and doesn&#8217;t have a weapon, I&#8217;ll be able to take them down,&#8221; said Hineline, 20, a native of Kennesaw, Ga. &#8220;I have to search females, and sometimes males, and if they get violent I can protect myself and control the situation.&#8221;
> 
> While the fighting styles are helpful for close-quarters combat, the Marines get other benefits out of the jiu-jitsu discipline.
> 
> &#8220;I like to focus on the moral and spiritual aspects, as well,&#8221; Roeder said. &#8220;They really get to know who they are out here and they learn sportsmanship.&#8221;
> 
> &#8220;The more you teach, the more you learn yourself,&#8221; said Mendez, who is happy Roeder, someone with similar skill levels, is around to practice with. &#8220;We keep each other on our toes.&#8221;
> 
> And they keep the students on their toes, too, ready to learn and eager to come back for more.


 
Of course, I feel compelled to add once again the disclaimer: this is not to say that BJJ is the best art around or that anyone not interested in training in BJJ should do so. I'm strictly responding to allegations that BJJ isn't a part of MCMAP and that Marines have no use for it.

Edit:  I'm having a great time reading through the Marines website.  Here's another article about a soldier's experience with BJJ, MCMAP and MMA training:  http://www.marines.mil/units/marforcom/iimef/2ndmlg/Pages/Itallcomesdowntoyou.aspx


----------



## elder999

stevebjj said:


> Of course, I feel compelled to add once again the disclaimer: this is not to say that BJJ is the best art around or that anyone not interested in training in BJJ should do so. I'm strictly responding to allegations that BJJ isn't a part of MCMAP and that Marines have no use for it.


 
I'll second that-while in its original form, it had a lot of good stand up "judo," most instructors seem to want to go right to the takedown and ground game. For me, this is not desirable for self-defense. On the other hand, learning how to deal with it really requires doing it-being on the ground, on my back, and learning more about repelling takedowns. It just makes sense.....



JadecloudAlchemist said:


> Is it this:


 
No, I think she means-since she and Mystic Wolf claim Jim Fung lineage-_simplicity, directness, economy of motion, minimum use of strength,_ and_practicality_. Universal goals for most martial arts application, and, oddly enough, ones that are readily applied to numerous forms of jujutsu, including Brazilian jujitsu.

Though you're right as well-and, oddly enough, one can find the same principles in the technique of any successful practitioner of any martial art or martial arts system .

....still waiting for Si-Je to deal with the whole "cognitive dissonance" thing...


----------



## jarrod

jadecloudalchemist, i believe si-je studied goshin jujitsu.

jf


----------



## elder999

jarrod said:


> jadecloudalchemist, i believe si-je studied goshin jujitsu.
> 
> jf


 

....and that's a can of worms that I'll let someone else open up, so it doesn't seem like I'm picking on her.......

......though I have to ask: _which one?_ :lfao:


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## JadecloudAlchemist

Goshin jujutsu meaning self defense jujutsu? I always thought it was correctly written Goshin jutsu not Goshin Jujutsu.

I mean Goshin jutsu is not a particular style its just self defense kinda of like saying Karate or back to Jujutsu again lol.




> _directness, economy of motion, minimum use of strength,_ and_practicality_.


 
You mean like what the term Ju kinda of means in Judo and Jujutsu?


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## The Last Legionary

This is Randor Reporting for WMTV News.
Si-Je has been debunked again. The crowd is hushed as we await her reply. Will it be more anti-bjj jive, more wing chun is awesome rhetoric, or will we be called poopyheads? You can cut the tension with a knife here Howard. This crowd is tense. Earlier today I attempted to lead them through some Brushes Horses Mane, but they were in no mood for that, and threatened my with a rather rude suggetion about where to Strum Lute.  Ah, here she comes now. I see she's changed her outfit again, this time it's a lovely silk blue. Such a shame the previos red one had so much mud on it when she left. I doubt she'll ever get the stains out. I'd share some laundry tips, but the last time i tried that she LapSao'd me in the kidney and I've been peeing blood ever since then. I see we're ready to begin again, so for now, thisis Randor signing off for WMTV News.
opcorn::drinkbeer:lfao:


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## elder999

Si-Je said:


> What on earth is he doing here? Is your opponent just going to stand there while you flip your legs into the air and jump on the arm?!
> How is this akin to WC/WT principle? Apples and Oranges.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPSvOTM2lz0.


 
Well, flying _juji gatame_, is a high-risk maneuver, and certainly not for self-defense. However, it is used in competition. Neil Adams used it in 1981 to win his World Judo Championship. It's sometimes called a _Disvenko_, after the Russian judoka who used it in Paris in the 80's.It's been used at the Abu Dhabi submission grappling championships as well:

 Here's Rumina Sato doing it in competition.

Here's one that's a little less spectacular.

Here's a rolling armbar from a Japanese judo competition.


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## jarrod

i could be mis-quoting her; but i _think_ it was goshin jujitsu.  my cpu is slow as hell or else i'd look it up.

jf


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## elder999

Si-Je said:


> I hate this guard.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vx864b1eSYY
> For the Wing Chunners, instead of locking your ankles out behind them. turn your knees inward like WC basic stance with abduction and use foreward force/pressure with the knees to keep their body weight off you while defending with the hands from your back. Warding off chokes, locks, punches ....




On the other hand, Si-Je, a lot of females find some value in learning to fight from this position,_ since that's exactly where some rapists might want to end up anyway_-*and they might just have to*.  Of course, if you're certain that your WC skills will keep your knees against an assailants body when he's knocking you upside the head and ripping off your clothes with one arm, and forcing your legs apart with the other, well, I wish you all the best at "warding off....etc."


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## elder999

jarrod said:


> i could be mis-quoting her; but i _think_ it was goshin jujitsu. my cpu is slow as hell or else i'd look it up.
> 
> jf


 
Here it is:



Si-Je said:


> 1. *I trained Goshin Ju-Jitsu for 3 years. I know the entries, and the stratagies behind Ju-Jitsu.* Although we diddn't call it "grappling". And we didn't shoot face first into your knees and try to force a takedown. We threw you off a punch or grab. We worked to stay on your side, and such. Yes, I'm aware of this mentality. But, it's flawed in a practical sense. Your opponent is going to hit and kick you with their other hand while your trying to armbar them, and while your using all this energy to get around their body to the side. I'll tell you from personal experience. When the guy is six footish 250 lbs. thats a long walk on the mats to their side, especially when their fighting you. I still have to manuver past legs twice as long as mine, and well whatever. It takes too much time and energy. And while your trying to do all this your getting hit, kneed, kicked, head butted, whatever.


 
I'd have edited it to the bolded sentence, but I found the rest of it rather illuminating.

In any case, I still have to ask: _Which "goshin jujitsu?"_ :lfao:

Here's an explanation of the term "goshin jujutsu," from Toby Threadgill, sensei:



> If a Japanese based martial system is formulated in modern times (post Tokugawa) but is only partially influenced by traditional Nihon jujutsu, it may be more correctly referred to as gendai goshin jujutsu ( modern self defense jujutsu). Gendai goshin jujutsu is usually formulated outside Japan and may include influences from other martial traditions. The popular Gracie/Brazilian jujutsu system, influenced by modern judo, and Danzan ryu, carrying further influences from Indonesian and Okinawan martial traditions are popular examples of gendai goshin jujutsu.


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## Si-Je

elder999 said:


> Pot? *Kettle*? :lfao:
> 
> I'm not even going to get into all your erroneous info on jujutsu, locks, "two-handedness," etc., etc., etc. I'm just going to point out that by your own admission, you've only had 3 years of JJJ training....I don't want to seem condescending or anything, but that's-as jarrod pointed out-really just enough to be competent in this day and age......


 
Enough for me to reach Sempi and teach it. Sorry if you had to study longer to get it. I've studied several different arts since then, that's when I was a teenager.



elder999 said:


> The Instructor's Course also appears to contain a lot of "anti-grappling." :lfao: ......


 
Yeah, I see the anti-grappling when they escape from the BJJ armbars on the ground.  But, to you it's all just BJJ to you, isn't it? 

The Instructor's Course also appears to contain a lot of "anti-grappling." :lfao:
 I see tons of Judo throws. some BJJ in the nice soft sand and matts, awwwhhh. 

THis one looks pretty deadly, even with that soundtrack!

JJJ at one minute, 2:00 and 4:30. neato lots of 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olrHBrW1Iu0&feature=related

neat to see the guys demonstrating how effective BJJ is against a knife figher.  How many times did they get stabbed?  Lost count.  Will show hubbie that one, he's going to ****!
See JJJ at 3:26 nice classic T-off. and 3:53



elder999 said:


> I can post lots, and lots, and *lots* more MCMAP groundfighting that has all the elements of what you've described here as "inefficient," or undesirable-including going into a BJJ guard, "two handed" joint locks, and use of body leverage/torque-of course, that's not all the videos show in some cases, because that's not all MCMAP is-but it is a part of what it is. Heck, I've even found video of two guys grappling from the knees, ala BJJ....


 
Keep 'em commin'.  Doesn't both me. If they decide to add BJJ in MCMAP now, I'm not the one trying to use it in the field.  Hubbie, on the other hand just might **** a brick.
But, you are one of the rudest people I've met on here yet.  Keep it coming.  Show those colors.


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## Si-Je

elder999 said:


> No, I think she means-since she and Mystic Wolf claim Jim Fung lineage-_simplicity, directness, economy of motion, minimum use of strength,_ and_practicality_. Universal goals for most martial arts application, and, oddly enough, ones that are readily applied to numerous forms of jujutsu, including Brazilian jujitsu....


 
Prove it. Show me, how those apply to BJJ.
In what BJJ technique uses any one of these principles.  Which one's use WC concepts?  And how?

....still waiting for Si-Je to deal with the whole "cognitive dissonance" thing...[/quote]

I missed the cognitive dissonance thing, where was that posted?


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## Si-Je

elder999 said:


> Here it is:
> 
> 
> 
> I'd have edited it to the bolded sentence, but I found the rest of it rather illuminating.
> 
> In any case, I still have to ask: _Which "goshin jujitsu?"_ :lfao:
> 
> Here's an explanation of the term "goshin jujutsu," from Toby Threadgill, sensei:


 
Neither of those. Google Sodai Brock under Goshin Ryu if you'd like. I haven't been able to find a website of his, still looking. Why are you so hung up on the ju-jitsu thing? Must be really important to you, ju-jitsu. 
His style incorporated, guess what,? Wing Chun hands. lol! He took Aiki Ju-Jistu, mixed it with WC hands, and Goshin techniques. I took that back in 1995, and guess what? We didn't incorporate ANY BJJ. Whether they do that now I don't know, nor is it any of my concern. I don't train it anymore. I moved on to Wing Chun. I got a taste of it in Shodi Brock's system and finally found a good teacher about 5 years ago. 
By the way, I'll answer questions directed at me about my training, thank you.  I don't need someone that knows nothing about it speaking for me.  Although you do seem to enjoy doing that. lol!

Just wondering, am I filling out an application? Are you hiring me for a job? Then, why you needing my resume? lol!


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## elder999

Si-Je said:


> Enough for me to reach Sempi and teach it. Sorry if you had to study longer to get it. I've studied several different arts since then, that's when I was a teenager.


 
That's too *funny.* :lfao:




Si-Je said:


> Keep 'em commin'. Doesn't both me. If they decide to add BJJ in MCMAP now, I'm not the one trying to use it in the field. Hubbie, on the other hand just might **** a brick.


 
Actually, a review of the document I posted a couple of pages ago, Marine Corps Order 1550.54A, _The Marine Corps Martial Arts Program_, pretty well demonstrates that BJJ was part of MCMAP from the beginning.



Si-Je said:


> But, you are one of the rudest people I've met on here yet. Keep it coming. Show those colors.


 
So _what?!!_ :321:

I mean, this is supposed to be a _discussion_ board-and you've completely derailed the discussion of whether or not the two arts make a compatible mix with your viewpoint. Have you considered just how rude your insistence that _you're_ correct, that *your* way of doing things is the *right* way, that *your opinion* is the only one that's valid are? 

_I think monopolizing the discussion is the very height of rudeness._

Never mind how many people simply think that *you're wrong.*

I may be rude: a review of my posts reveals me to be sarcastic, bombastic, condescending and sometimes quite the ***. You should see me at work......:lol:

At least I'm not *thick,* as well*,* _Nikki_.


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## Si-Je

elder999 said:


> [/size]
> 
> On the other hand, Si-Je, a lot of females find some value in learning to fight from this position,_ since that's exactly where some rapists might want to end up anyway_-*and they might just have to*. Of course, if you're certain that your WC skills will keep your knees against an assailants body when he's knocking you upside the head and ripping off your clothes with one arm, and forcing your legs apart with the other, well, I wish you all the best at "warding off....etc."


 
no joke, really?! So the best defense against a rapist that has your pants off and is between your legs with his pecker out and ready is to wrap your legs around his willing and ready waiste and lock your ankles behind his back and lay back and enjoy the ride?!
You've lost your ever living mind!
You keep that man OUT from between your legs, you keep their body weight OFF you. you don't help the penetrate you by going into BJJ "guard".
The whole world has just gone mad to think that BJJ is a style to defend against a rapist. 

Here's a neat fact too. We trained a 15 year veteran of the Fort Worth police department and he used to love to give us alot of the police departments hand outs on crimial studies, and phycological profiles of violent offenders. 
One study stated that rapists love to take self-defense classes, their favorite, BJJ classes. It's a fact, he showed us the paperwork back in fort worth.
They like the BJJ because it helps them to control the female better and because it's one of the most popular styles right now. And so they can learn to counter all the self-defense most women may use. Just FYI.
So, now. you going to learn what a rapist knows and put yourself more in the position of being raped and "submitted" by learning BJJ and fighting him in this fashion?
Whatever.
Why not take a style that even if a rapist studied it for a couple of months to a year you could still defeat him using the same style?


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## Si-Je

elder999 said:


> That's too *funny.* :lfao:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, a review of the document I posted a couple of pages ago, Marine Corps Order 1550.54A, _The Marine Corps Martial Arts Program_, pretty well demonstrates that BJJ was part of MCMAP from the beginning.
> 
> 
> 
> So _what?!!_ :321:
> 
> I mean, this is supposed to be a _discussion_ board-and you've completely derailed the discussion of whether or not the two arts make a compatible mix with your viewpoint. Have you considered just how rude your insistence that _you're_ correct, that *your* way of doing things is the *right* way, that *your opinion* is the only one that's valid are?
> 
> _I think monopolizing the discussion is the very height of rudeness._
> 
> Never mind how many people simply think that *you're wrong.*
> 
> I may be rude: a review of my posts reveals me to be sarcastic, bombastic, condescending and sometimes quite the ***. You should see me at work......:lol:
> 
> At least I'm not *thick,* as well*,* _Nikki_.


 
Like everywhere I post the same people follow just to plug their BJJ and grappling? And you want to post how WC just NEEDS BJJ? lol! cry me a river duder. :sadsong:

And you want to talk about how BJJ merges so easily with WC, then talk about it! Shut the **** up, and prove it! How?! This stupid thread has gone on and on with all this jacking off stupid comments about this and that that has nothing to do with the topic. I'm not the only one here getting waaaaaay off topic, self proclaimed ***.

And what am I wrong about? That MCMAP teaches BJJ too? :vu: I'm so heart broken! lol! I don't care. That's not what my trainer/sifu/husband trained while in MCMAP, and not what he incorporated in it. He was one of several guys working on the thing. Who cares? YOU care.

I've offered several posts of pure WC technique against BJJ, what has been returned? Crap. Just mental masterbation of how it would never work against the greatest stuff in the world, BJJ. No proof. No explaination of WHY the technique won't work. Just jacking off trash talking about nothing. No prof. Blah, blah.
Again, describe or leave a video of BJJ technique and I'll tell you how to counter it with WC. If you don't like it, discuss why it won't work or something else revelent.

You feel special you know my name? Come on down and meet Nikki if your feeling froggy.  Meet my husband too, he'll be really happy to see you.


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## Steve

Si-Je said:


> Here's a neat fact too. We trained a 15 year veteran of the Fort Worth police department and he used to love to give us alot of the police departments hand outs on crimial studies, and phycological profiles of violent offenders.
> One study stated that rapists love to take self-defense classes, their favorite, BJJ classes. It's a fact, he showed us the paperwork back in fort worth.
> They like the BJJ because it helps them to control the female better and because it's one of the most popular styles right now. And so they can learn to counter all the self-defense most women may use. Just FYI.
> So, now. you going to learn what a rapist knows and put yourself more in the position of being raped and "submitted" by learning BJJ and fighting him in this fashion?
> Whatever.
> Why not take a style that even if a rapist studied it for a couple of months to a year you could still defeat him using the same style?


Okay. This is where I officially lose my temper and leave the high road to join you in your filth. Disparage the art of BJJ. Fine. I don't care. Unlike you, I'm not emotionally invested in whether my art is better than yours. I have too many things to enjoy about life than to worry about petty crap like that. 

But when you insinuate that I and my training partners in some way promote an atmosphere that is tolerant of rapists, I have to say you've crossed a line. You are so insecure and desperate to prove your point you are willing to literally say anything. I pity you. You are pathetic.

Half of my school are police officers, emergency medical workers and firefighters. We have doctors, lawyers, and some of the finest people I have ever had the honor of knowing. 

I pity you. I do. I hope you wake up someday and get over yourself.

For what it's worth, though I've tolerated your posts for several weeks now, I have to say I think you're making it all up. I don't think there is a wrestler whose coach told him to avoid drinking water. I don't think you've ever met a bjj purple belt, much less trained with one (or several). I don't believe that you have ever trained with a police officer who showed you these studies. I believe you to be a liar and completely without integrity. 

I pity you and the women whom you have brainwashed, and hope someday you figure out what the hell it is that you want. In the meantime, I have no use for you. As far as I'm concerned, you add nothing of value to this site.


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## Si-Je

I reply to SteveBJJ's comment on my profile. (since he's on my ignore list and I don't read any of his posts I guess that's the only way he could get his two cents in.)
I never suggested that BJJ condones rape or rapists.
Just stated the statics that rapists train the styles that are the most popular, and that seems to be BJJ at the top of the list right now.
The very design of the fighting style would benefit such an offender very well to those ends. Grappling. 
If WC was as popular and widespread such offenders would probably study WC. Maybe they do.

Does BJJ teachers do criminal background checks on their students on sign up?  How would anyone know what type of offender a student is?  It's a fact and a statstic based on the reasearch of criminology.  They interviewed caught and known sex offenders in prison and found out alot of information on these people.
Does that mean even with a criminal background check on students you'll know who is the rapist?  No.  They may not have gotten arrested or have a report yet.

Take it for what it's worth.  Look into it for what's not there if you wish.


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## Steve

Si-Je said:


> I reply to SteveBJJ's comment on my profile. (since he's on my ignore list and I don't read any of his posts I guess that's the only way he could get his two cents in.)
> I never suggested that BJJ condones rape or rapists.
> Just stated the statics that rapists train the styles that are the most popular, and that seems to be BJJ at the top of the list right now.
> The very design of the fighting style would benefit such an offender very well to those ends. Grappling.
> If WC was as popular and widespread such offenders would probably study WC. Maybe they do.
> 
> Does BJJ teachers do criminal background checks on their students on sign up? How would anyone know what type of offender a student is? It's a fact and a statstic based on the reasearch of criminology. They interviewed caught and known sex offenders in prison and found out alot of information on these people.
> Does that mean even with a criminal background check on students you'll know who is the rapist? No. They may not have gotten arrested or have a report yet.
> 
> Take it for what it's worth. Look into it for what's not there if you wish.


Once again, you can prevaricate all you wish.  I think you were very clear in your previous posts.  I added negative rep (first for everything) to a post that I feel well deserved it.  I signed it, because that's the polite thing to do.   My opinion is that you are despicable.


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## The Last Legionary

Randor reporting again for WMTV News
I'm coming to you live from under what is left of a conference room table, as the post consumption digested fecal material has hit the large tri bladed air moving device! Blood has now been spilled, and shoes and the feet within them inserted. It is absolute pandimonium here Howard, I even think I saw a midget trying an Insagari Arm Bar on a rare white panda. Awww. Kawai! But I digress. 

In this latest exchange of hostilities, SiJe has crossed the line, comparing BJJ practitioners to sex offenders. While the positioning is sometimes similar to what I watch late at night, I've yet to see a BJJ match where they aren't wearing pants. I would hazard a guess that she would be just as irate hould someone point out the similarities of wing chun forms to stoned hippies dancing at Woodstock, but again, I regress.

It's been a long hard fight for this Wing Chun fanatic. She's lost alot of ground, brought tons of public scorn and ridicule on her, yet she keeps on fighting, often flailing blindly at her opponents in what could be called a Blind Mans Lap Sao, what with the previously mentioned high velocity fecal spatter impacting her vision. It's been a brutal fight Howard, yet one must admire the courage, stubornness, the never say quit and yet, the closed minded blind faith that she's projectng.

I'm trying to work my way across the room to get an interview in with Elder who is smoking what appears to be a large and possibly contraband Cuban, however the carnage is just horrible. I haven't seen a food fight like this since my last Kenpo camp when they had some GM's in for crab legs. Stuff is everywhere.

Oh. One moment please. Yes, I've recieved word that we may be seeing the Mystical one himself pop in soon. His rare appearances usually come from a need to give his wife some time to remove her feet from her mouth, a techique I don't often see in Wing Chun outside her style. I'm going to try and find a safe location for myself and my camera crew as the carniage here continues to brew up here on the WingChun battlefield.

This is Randor, for WMTV News signing off and ducking for cover!


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## JadecloudAlchemist

> Sodai Brock


 What's a Sodai?



> O_r sodai gomi_ is a traditional Japanese term used to describe the imminent removal of such items as old (but still-functioning)


 
Like that?


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## The Last Legionary

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> What's a Sodai?


 :drinkbeer:burp::cheers::drink2tha

These?


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## elder999

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> What's a Sodai?


 
I think she meant _shodai_, but I'll leave it alone. Won't even ask if that's Jim or George Brock. She can answer questions about her training herself.......

....._gomi_ was _awesome_! Got a perfectly good bicycle and a stereo out of someone's garbage in Osaka, back in '80....:lol:


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## Brian R. VanCise

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Please review our sniping policy http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sho...d.php?p=427486. Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you

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## Flying Crane

good god, I can't believe this thread has gone on this long.  

c'mon folks, let this one die, it's just getting embarrassing all the way around.  

what the hell do any of you really care what your oponents in this argument think?  Nobody's gonna change anybody's mind at this point, why does it matter?  think what you want, don't worry about the others.

Somebody's got to be big enough to walk away without getting in the last shot.  Maybe everyone will quit posting then, or maybe the thread just ought to be locked.

walk away, walk away.


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## Bob Hubbard

Problem is, while theres a lot of good information, good concerns, etc here, there's also been alot of shots, slings, slights, and flat out insults tossed around. 

I think if people want to discuss the good parts, new threads should be started. This one's IMO poisoned with ill will and anger.

Locking pending staff review.


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