# Holes in kenpo



## kenpo12 (Nov 5, 2003)

I hear alot of people talk about "holes" in kenpo.  Kenpo doesn't have ground fighting, grappling, sufficient weapons techniques blah, blah, blah.  I personally don't think there are any holes in kenpo, just holes in the minds of the practitioners and/or training.  But if I were to find "holes" I would say it's in the way people train not the system.  
    Clyde talks about the spirit of the attack alot and he's right.  If someone just sticks there hand out there, it's not a punch.  Lord knows I've been nailed in the head for not blocking William properly but I learned pretty quickly to get the block up there properly.  How many people train the attacks as opposed to just training the defenses?  There are alot of techniques addressed in the attacks that are good techniques and if not trained properly the defender will never learn how to defend against them properly.  How many people train to put on headlocks, figure four armlocks, bear hugs, etc?  

Just curious,

Matt


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## someguy (Nov 5, 2003)

There are holes.  There are holes in every thing.  Nothing A human can make will be with out holes.  Kenpo is NOT perfect.  No  MA is.  This may annoy people to say this especialy on a kenpo board but to bad.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Nov 5, 2003)

Kenpo12:  

What Clyde told you is exactly correct.  However, what Someguy said in reply to your post is also correct.  Kenpo is an incredibly comprehensive, deep, and complex system.  You can dedicate your life to it and never learn everything it has to offer.  

There is a danger in that path.  The danger is that your reality becomes defined within your dojo and you ignore what goes on in the rest of the martial arts world. 

You are at a great school with great teachers.  One of the best in the world actually.  Contnue to absorb everything you can from them.  At some point in the future, remember to raise your head and look around to make sure you are not missing anything else in the world.


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## pete (Nov 5, 2003)

Taken from a translation of the Tao Te Ching:

"Open the door and frame the window,
It is nothing (the hole) that is the essense of usefulness"

Anybody see the holes as a good thing.. vive l' holes!


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## kenpo12 (Nov 5, 2003)

I do see the "holes" as good thing.  That's why every space in the web of knowlege is not filled, but that's not quite my point.  What I'm getting at with my question is why do so many people feel they need to go elsewhere to fill holes as opposed to just training properly and filling in the "holes" that way.
   I'm in no way saying that you can't study other arts but it shouldn't be done to fill in holes as much as it should be done just to get some perspective.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Nov 5, 2003)

Kenpo12:  

The argument is similar to "why travel abroad when you haven't seen all of the USA yet?"   When you travel abroad you see things that just don't exist in the USA--things you never dreamed could exist.  International travel will greatly increase your knowledge, provide additional wisdom into human nature and enable you to exprience your time in the USA with a broader perspective.

After a period of time you may experience a diminishing return in your Kenpo study.  If that time comes, you may want to do other things.  Those other things might be family, travel, more schooling, other sports, or maybe even another martial art.  You may discover that there is more to life (and to the martial arts) than Kenpo and that there is more to the world than what you are experiencing inside your dojo.  You may discover that your prior experience was incomplete and that there are questions you never dreamed could be asked.  That may spark a whole new journey in your life that could be as rewarding as your Kenpo journey.


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## kenpo12 (Nov 5, 2003)

Old Fat Kenpoka,

   Your analogy fits what I'm saying.  I agree with traveling abroad to get a better perspective, but I always come back home.  Once in awhile during those travels people find a place they would rather live but in most cases traveling around and seeing other things give you a better perspective of what you currently doing.  For me personally I'm always going to be a kenpo person, that is my root system.  I like to dabble with other systems or people in other systems but all that does is help me in strengthening my kenpo.


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## MJS (Nov 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kenpo12 _
> *Old Fat Kenpoka,
> 
> Your analogy fits what I'm saying.  I agree with traveling abroad to get a better perspective, but I always come back home.  Once in awhile during those travels people find a place they would rather live but in most cases traveling around and seeing other things give you a better perspective of what you currently doing.  For me personally I'm always going to be a kenpo person, that is my root system.  I like to dabble with other systems or people in other systems but all that does is help me in strengthening my kenpo. *



Very good post!  Your last statement really stands out though!  Again, this is something that I have said, and have taken soooo much crap for, but here it is again.  Only difference, is that someone else is saying the EXACT same thing.  I have never said to abandon Kenpo.  After all, its my base art as well.  I have said many times to take ideas, methods, concepts, etc. from other systems and add them to the Kenpo, to at the very least, make YOUR Kenpo better!  

Mike


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## Seig (Nov 6, 2003)

There is a proverb:
If the facts do not suport your proposal,
get rid of the facts.





I am happy to know that 20 years after I first heard that proverb it is still true.:disgust:


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## MJS (Nov 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> *There is a proverb:
> If the facts do not suport your proposal,
> get rid of the facts.
> ...



Yes, that is very true.  The interesting thing here though, is that I'm not the only one who talks about the 'holes', rather just the only one who takes heat for it.  Oh well!  

Again, I could see if I was the only one saying this, but the fact of the matter is, is that there are MANY who preach the same thing.

Mike


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## MisterMike (Nov 6, 2003)

<thick sarcasm>But if it isn't in the Encyclopedia of Kenpo or Books 1-5, it doesn't exist</thick sarcasm> ..... :shrug:


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Nov 6, 2003)

> <thick sarcasm>But if it isn't in the Encyclopedia of Kenpo or Books 1-5, it doesn't exist</thick sarcasm> .....



Here's my problem with you guys.  I'm a kenpo guy, I love kenpo, but kenpo has it's limitations.  Kenpo club/stick work sucks compared to FMA club/stickwork.  Sure it exists in kenpo but it isn't really developed beyond the realm of forms and even then it is extraordinarily primitive compared to what I've seen.  Kenpo again doesn't even teach a knife curriculum outside of specialized circles like Mike Picks group or Paul Mills group (which has also developed a multi-level club curriculum).  

The same with groundfighting, just because you tried to convert a couple of standing techniques into ground techniques doesn't mean you have a ground system or that you are even capable of executing this correctly.  This just means you are trying to fill in a blank with the most readily available material which may not always be the best suited.  

You sneer that we only look at the Encyclopedia or the Infinite Insights for material to base our observations.  I base my observations on what is happening in a majority of kenpo schools.  Most of the schools who are teaching any groundfighting have received, at the very least, some outside instruction in the matter.  

Why should you have to wait to learn these things on your own, when someone with a dedicated background to a particular subject can show you more in one day than you could teach yourself in one year?

What if all physicists were like this, "well everything is essentially physics so I should be able to build this entire 777 airplane without the help of anyone else."  Well of course he's right, but don't you think it's more efficient to get people who build aircraft engines, set-up the electrical systems, fuel lines, or landing gear on a routine basis rather than waste all your time looking for answers that are readily available to anyone willing to listen.  Maybe that's just me, but why the hell should I wait 20 years to be introduced and taught insufficient material when I can learn good material today that I can start using today?  

You guys just don't get it.  It's not about kenpo's holes as someone stated, that just seems to be the wording that everyone decided to use to go along with the original post.  What it is though, is about developing aspects of an art that were not previously developed either by your instructor or association, this includes EPAK and SGM Ed Parker.  Do you truly believe that Mr. Parker developed his curriculum as far as he was going to?  Especially when we all know that he was planning a major system overhaul at the time of his death.  If you don't see this, then there is no point to everyone continuing to argue about this. You guys can go back to your little bubbles and we will all keep doing what we are all already doing.


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## Michael Billings (Nov 6, 2003)

... I get tired of your alienating people just about every post.  Whether you are right or wrong is not the issue.  Even when I want to agree with you, I have difficulty doing it when your condesending tone and implied insults just piss me off.  

Is it just me?  I know that this thread addresses "Holes in Kenpo"; I consider you a good contributer, albeit with a stance different from my own.  You are trying ... or maybe not trying, but effectively alienating me with comments that I do not take personally, but do find insulting to others.  This post just hit me wrong, when essentially there are parts I intrinsically agree with.

It is not the Art, but the teacher.  Your observations about Mr. Parker are probably accurate, and Kenpo would have continued to grow.  Kenpo guys would learn BJJ and be competing with it, but under his direction, the best, the logical parts would probably, eventually have come into the system.  Mr. Parker learned every day he was alive, and the rest of us would do well to seek this same value.  This is not a statement about Mr. Parker, so much as it is a compliment to those who learned HOW to learn from him.  Challenge was a part of it, but only a part, solutions and answers were always being sought, whatever the venue.

-Michael


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## Shiatsu (Nov 6, 2003)

You know, I tend to agree with Kenpo yahoo on this one.  A lot of people are stuck in the "my way is the only way syndrome", if you don't believe it look at the posts from all the EPAK is the only way people.  

Mr. Parker would have never quit improvising, to think that he would have is foolish.

To think that no one can take you to the ground is foolish, to think that you will go into a fight or altercation and you are to damn good to get hit, you are foolish.

If it works it is right, if it doesn't it is wrong.

Mr. Parker stated " No matter how good of a swimmer you are, if you swim in a pool of sharks you are bound to get bit".


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## arnisador (Nov 6, 2003)

I like the analogy to physicists and engineers.



> Especially when we all know that he was planning a major system overhaul at the time of his death.



I didn't know this! Do we know what was intended in this overhaul?


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Nov 6, 2003)

Is the "major overhaul" the introduction of the 16-technique-per-belt curriculum?  Or was it something more major?


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## MisterMike (Nov 6, 2003)

> You sneer that we only look at the Encyclopedia or the Infinite Insights for material to base our observations. I base my observations on what is happening in a majority of kenpo schools. Most of the schools who are teaching any groundfighting have received, at the very least, some outside instruction in the matter.



KY,

It was a sacrastic "sneer" at those who do not look beyond the books. I'm on your side man...chill.

If there's any holes, they can be filled by looking at other systems. Just check my profile. I'm FOR crosstraining.


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## kenpo12 (Nov 6, 2003)

See, it's this Black and White view everyone has that cracks me up.  Why can't American Kenpo exist beyond the written cirriculum?  Just because a specific scenerio doesn't exist within the written techniques doesn't mean kenpo doesn't deal with it.  Kenpo goes far beyond the written techiques.  The techniques are just written examples so that you can internalize the art, but once you've reached a certain level of proficency the curriculum does away with itself.  I'm not saying you can't go learn some BJJ, Systema, Escrima or what have you but if you look at the techniques of these other systems you will begin to see that they are kenpo as well.  You don't have to agree with me, but honestly if you can't see that it's all just kenpo maybe you're not looking at kenpo the way you should be.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Nov 6, 2003)

Kenpo12:

I took a cooking class this summer.  We made a different dinner every week for several weeks.  After just a couple of classes, it became clear to me that hey this cooking stuff -- it's really just Kenpo!  After this realization I was able to cancel the angle of disturbance and the soufle came out perfectly!

Come on, it's not all just Kenpo!  There is knowledge, wisdom, theory, technique, and basic reality that is outside of the bounds of Kenpo principles, techniques, and methods.  This is true even though Mr. Tatum, Clyde, and the rest of the crew in Pasadena may be teaching their students otherwise.  .


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## MisterMike (Nov 6, 2003)

That may be true to a point, for systems that look like Kenpo. But I don't think techniques from arts like Aikido fit that mold. Sometimes the Kenpo Pride gets a hold of the best of us.


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## rmcrobertson (Nov 6, 2003)

As one of the crew in Pasadena, oh, stuff and nonsense. But I am starting to find it hilarious (and revealing) that about half the people of forums can't say ANYTHING without slamming the LTKKA.

"Hey, what time is it?
"Well, if you asked that crew in Pasadena, they'd tell you it was 2:35. Those clowns think they know what's right for everybody."

"Well, doctor, what's wrong with my six-year-old? Why's he complaining that his tummy is sore?"
"It looks like Failure to Learn Groundfighting. But if you asked Clyde and the rest of that Pasadena gang, they'd probably say that little Joey needs to have his appendix out. I mean, really. It's like they think medicine's the same for everybody."

If you're taking a decent cooking class--correct me if I'm hallucinating, but don't they presuppose that there are certain concepts and principles of cooking that are the same no matter what particular style of food you're making? Aren't there right ways and wrong ways to, say, stir-fry? Aren't there basic combinations that work tgether, and others that don't, no matter which cuisine?

So riddle me this, Bat Man: why's it called the, "universal pattern?"


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## pete (Nov 6, 2003)

Kenpo12: I read your last post (black and white view...) thinking, "hey, this looks like something i wrote once or twice before on this forum", until i get to the piece where you imply that kenpo is all inclusive of all martial arts.... disagree.  unless i am misunderstanding your point, and you are trying to say that the those pieces of other arts not apparently visable in the holy kenpo scrolls can be integrated into your brand of kenpo... then i wholeheartedly agree... the difference being the level of effort to bringit in.

OFK: Even if my kenpo instructor was the master chef of le cirque, souffles ain't kenpo!  now defense against agita...

Mister Mike: I think there is more Aikido, Chinna, and the like hidden in Kenpo techniques.  2 ways to find out would be to train with an instructor who has a good handle on this material (as the instructor i am training with), or to cross train in one of those arts and integrate it for yourself.

Rmcrobertson: I'm about 3,000 miles away, and wouldn't know Pasadena from Beverly Hills, but even i see it as presumptuous to think any reference to Pasadena is a reference to LTKKKA.  Anywho, the universal pattern is a good reference to support the expansion of Kenpo beyond the limitations of its written curriculum. 

pete.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Nov 6, 2003)

Oh Robert:   Of course, there are concepts and principles in cooking that apply in every recipe!   Where we disagree is whether cooking principles are the same as Kenpo principles!

My dig at Tatum in the post above is totally different than the nonsense over at the KenpoNet.  I do think Tatum is one of the best, if not THE best American Kenpo instructor out there -- and he always has been -- and I believe that he deserves the highest rank he or any one else says he should wear.  

My dig is that whenever I hear a claim that "anything any other art does is really just Kenpo and that if OFK and the rest of you knew more Kenpo you would realize this" it is almost always from Clyde, you, Billy, or someone else studying under Tatum.


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## kenpo12 (Nov 6, 2003)

Hey Pete,

   I think we do agree.  My point is that the written Kenpo curriculum my not have every technique in it but the concepts and principles of American kenpo can be applied on all planes.  That is why I say, if you crosstrain in another art you will see the similarities.  For myself at least I can't pull these techniques out of the air with the concepts and priniciples alone but after dabbling in other systems with kenpo as my base I can apply those technique's into my style of kenpo.


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## RCastillo (Nov 6, 2003)

When I was coaching football I learned,  you can't defense everything. You cover the best you can, and hope to out coach the other guy.:asian:


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## MJS (Nov 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *Kenpo12:
> 
> 
> ...


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## MJS (Nov 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> 
> 
> > As one of the crew in Pasadena, oh, stuff and nonsense. But I am starting to find it hilarious (and revealing) that about half the people of forums can't say ANYTHING without slamming the LTKKA.
> ...


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## MJS (Nov 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## kenpo12 (Nov 6, 2003)

> My dig is that whenever I hear a claim that "anything any other art does is really just Kenpo and that if OFK and the rest of you knew more Kenpo you would realize this" it is almost always from Clyde, you, Billy, or someone else studying under Tatum.



Maybe there is a reason for this.

Anyway don't matter whether I agree with you or not because you seem to be making it clear you have an agenda.  If you go back and read my posts I'm not saying you shouldn't crosstrain but you don't seem to want to listen anyway.


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## rmcrobertson (Nov 6, 2003)

Uh...guys...I am not busily defending Larry, whose work and ability speaks for itself...I...mentioned....Pasadena....because...OFK....put that....in his....post...

I see that nobody wanted to tangle with the question of why it's called the universal, not the local, pattern. 

So to phrase it another way: a bunch of you have read at least parts of, "Infinite Insights." So tell me: would YOU say Mr. Parker presents kenpo as just another style, just another art? 

Oh yeah--I forgot. How's about going back to my posts and find me where it is that I wrote the stuff that you're attributing to me, MJS? Or the quotes in which I went to other arts and said, "All very well, but what YOU guys don't know is...?"

Sheesh.


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## MJS (Nov 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> 
> 
> > Oh yeah--I forgot. How's about going back to my posts and find me where it is that I wrote the stuff that you're attributing to me, MJS? Or the quotes in which I went to other arts and said, "All very well, but what YOU guys don't know is...?"
> ...


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## Michael Billings (Nov 6, 2003)

Mod. Note.
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Michael Billings
-MT Moderator-


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## Seig (Nov 7, 2003)

To quote Mr. Parker, "The techniques are ideas, not hard and fast rules."  I've said it before and I will say it again, before you go yammering about what Kenpo does not have, learn what it does.  It may surprise you.....
To quote Ron Chape'l, "Don't tell me what I don't know, rather tell me what YOU don't know."


Think about it guys.


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## RCastillo (Nov 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> *To quote Mr. Parker, "The techniques are ideas, not hard and fast rules."  I've said it before and I will say it again, before you go yammering about what Kenpo does not have, learn what it does.  It may surprise you.....
> To quote Ron Chape'l, "Don't tell me what I don't know, rather tell me what YOU don't know."
> 
> ...



Good advcie!:asian:


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## rmcrobertson (Nov 7, 2003)

I see, again, that nobody wants to discuss why it's called, "the universal pattern," or the basic claims of the "Infinite Insights," books, or even point out (a trivial issue, to be sure, but one that keeeps coming up) just where it was that I impolitely attacked other arts.

Hm. Well, since we're not discussing any of this trivial stuff--exactly what is it that we're discussing? I disremember.


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## MisterMike (Nov 7, 2003)

> Mister Mike: I think there is more Aikido, Chinna, and the like hidden in Kenpo techniques. 2 ways to find out would be to train with an instructor who has a good handle on this material (as the instructor i am training with), or to cross train in one of those arts and integrate it for yourself.



Pete,

There is probably similarities in every art because there is only so many combinations/techniques you can do with the human body.

But they are applied very differently between some of the arts and some are not found in one or the other at all. Kenpo included.

In the case of Aikido and Kenpo, I have studied the 2 deeply and have investigated the similarities and differences.

The foot maneuvers, for instance. Ayumi Ashi, Tsugi Ashi and Okuri Ashi translate into Step-through, drag-step and step-drag respectfully. 

The pinning techniques, Ikkajo, Nikajo, Sankajo, YonKajo and GoKajo. SOME of these are in Kenpo, but others not.

The throwing techniqes, Kotegashi, Irimi, Kaiten, Shiho, Tenshi. I'd say 1 or 2 of these could loosely be translated into Kenpo.

If taking something you see from another system and inserting it into your curriculum makes it Kenpo, I'd have to disagree.


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## Michael Billings (Nov 7, 2003)

The mod warning was not directed specifically at you.  Why did you think it was?  PM (you do not have one) or feel free to email or call me and we can discuss this. 

michael.billings@kenpo-texas.com
512.406.5459 8-5 M-F

-Michael


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## RCastillo (Nov 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *The mod warning was not directed specifically at you.  Why did you think it was?  PM (you do not have one) or feel free to email or call me and we can discuss this.
> 
> michael.billings@kenpo-texas.com
> ...



Yep, it was directed at me, those Austin Kenpoists are trouble!(The Goldendragon encouraged him to do it)


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## pete (Nov 7, 2003)

> If taking something you see from another system and inserting it into your curriculum makes it Kenpo, I'd have to disagree.



Mike, 

I wholehearted respect your right to disagree and keep your Kenpo as-is...many good/great martial artists do.  however, please realize that you'd also be disagreeing with Messrs. Whitson, Wheeler, and Trejo.  I recently attended their seminars at the Boston IKCs where practices from Philipino, Russian, and Traditional Chinese martial arts were applied to Kenpo.

Pete.


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## jeffkyle (Nov 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *As one of the crew in Pasadena, oh, stuff and nonsense. But I am starting to find it hilarious (and revealing) that about half the people of forums can't say ANYTHING without slamming the LTKKA.
> 
> "Hey, what time is it?
> ...



That is all some funny stuff!  :rofl: :rofl:


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## MisterMike (Nov 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by pete _
> *Mike,
> 
> I wholehearted respect your right to disagree and keep your Kenpo as-is...many good/great martial artists do.  however, please realize that you'd also be disagreeing with Messrs. Whitson, Wheeler, and Trejo.  I recently attended their seminars at the Boston IKCs where practices from Philipino, Russian, and Traditional Chinese martial arts were applied to Kenpo.
> ...



I think it's good to teach info from other systems, I would just prefer to keep it labelled as such. Thanks for the discussion!

:asian:


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## dcence (Nov 7, 2003)

My position on this "holes" argument is that Robert is right  and OFK is right.  Robert is  right on a CONCEPTUAL level; OFK is right on an  APPLICATIONS level

Robert is right in that the Kenpo principles, concepts and such are broad enough to relate to and understand the effectiveness and usefulness of  the other arts' curriculum.  Roberts approach is on a CONCEPTUAL level.

OFK is right in that the EPAK system or any other system does not and cannot teach every aspect to which those principles and concepts apply.  OFK's approach is on an  APPLICATIONS level.

Groundfighting -- this uses principles and concepts of leverage, borrowed force, marriage of gravity, rotational momentum etc.  These are all CONCEPTS.  But the BJJ'ers are better at rolling around on the ground (generally) than Kenpo'ers because they choose to focus on that APPLICATION of those concepts.

Stickfighting -- the same principles of physics apply CONCEPTUALLY whether it is an FMA'er or Kenpo'er wielding the sticks.   FMA'ers are generally better at APPLYING  those CONCEPTS than Kenpo'ers because they focus on it.  

The fact of the matter is you won't be as good on the ground as a BJJ'er or as good with a stick as an FMA'er unless you spend the same amount of time as they do APPLYING those CONCEPTS in those respective specialties in the Martial Arts, no matter how long you have been practicing the stand-up empty hand techniques of Kenpo.

Even though the PRINCIPLES of  Kenpo are broad enough to be all  inclusive on a CONCEPTUAL level, the curriculum is not broad enough to include all APPLICATIONS of those principles which are focused on by other arts.  And that is the KEY difference in this whole debate.

I don't think anyone can point out a principle, move, concept,  -- whatever -- that is contained in another martial art, that I can't find in Kenpo.  But I believe they can show me an APPLICATION of that concept that the curriculum does not contain.  But I am willing to be shown differently and believe that would be a good exercise.

Derek


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## MisterMike (Nov 7, 2003)

This is a picture of sankajo. (pardon the image quality) The aim is to torque the hand with the elbow above it, or forearm in a vertical position. To alleviate the pain, the opponent eventually rises onto his toes and steps backwards.

I have not seen this in any Kenpo technique in the 32 technique curriculum or the forms.

Granted, if you were to lower the arm and straighten it, you have Crossing Talon. But they are not the same. This moves the opponent up, while Crossing Talon brings the opponent down.

There may be something similar in Lock Flow, which are drills some Kenpo schools teach, but it is not Kenpo.

When you have a mish-mash of techniques and call it all one thing, you lose the History and Roots of the technique. It would be like saying Kenpo is the origin of the "Karate Chop." Kenpo may use the weapon, but it certainly wasn't the origins. But as far as I can tell, the lock and arm position shown here is not in the original Kenpo system.

It's not to say there are not Kenpo principles that could lead you to this, but what are the chances? Like dcence said, even if you find it, if you don't practice it, what good is it? Kenpo is not the be-all end-all of Martial Arts.


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## pete (Nov 7, 2003)

hey mike... 

thank you for continuing this discussion and for the visual aids!

this is found in several of the techniques we practice in our curriculum (170 techniques to Black, mix of old and new Parker systems, all techniques taught with full extensions)... how about:

Gift (against an aggressive handshake)
Desperate Falcons (against double wrist grabs)
Glancing Spear (left wrist grab from the left side)

and for fun, we use Captured Twigs to counter this move.

pete.


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## kenpo12 (Nov 7, 2003)

Mike,

   As Pete stated that tech can be found in American kenpo, mainly in the extensions.  Funny how so many people think the extensions are nothing but fluff.

BTW  Mr. Ence,

Thank you for so eloquently putting what I have been trying to say all along.  I'm just not real great at putting into text.


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## Shiatsu (Nov 7, 2003)

Very well said Mr. Ence as always.  You must of had/have a great instructor.

Mike what style is that.  It looks like a hapkido top, but it doesn't look like hapkido with the hakima and all.:asian:


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Nov 7, 2003)

Derek:  You are a true peace maker.  When you cut through my tiresome rhetoric and really listen to what Robert is saying, you are correct.  We are both at least partially right.


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Nov 7, 2003)

> Kenpo12
> Mike,
> 
> As Pete stated that tech can be found in American kenpo, mainly in the extensions. Funny how so many people think the extensions are nothing but fluff.
> ...





> Mr. Ence:
> Even though the PRINCIPLES of Kenpo are broad enough to be all inclusive on a CONCEPTUAL level, the curriculum is not broad enough to include all APPLICATIONS of those principles which are focused on by other arts. And that is the KEY difference in this whole debate.
> 
> I don't think anyone can point out a principle, move, concept, -- whatever -- that is contained in another martial art, that I can't find in Kenpo. But I believe they can show me an APPLICATION of that concept that the curriculum does not contain.



This is all I was trying to say, albeit not quite as eloquent.  Mr. Billings I am sorry I made you mad, but if you don't mind which part pissed you off?  

I don't like the discussion of HOLES, but it is a term I went along with simply because this is how it was initially addressed.  EPAK hits just about every topic in some form or another, but as I said earlier and still believe, EPAK is not developed in certain areas and some of the answers may need to be updated a little, filled in with a little more information, or changed completely.

For instance Mr. Ence mentioned that Tripping arrow works for a mounted opponent and it does, but there are subtle changes that need to be made to the technique to keep you from getting into a worse situation than a front mount.  When you bridge and roll the guy if you extend your arm right arm up to his face you can easily be arm barred. Now since most of us aren't worried about sport let me point out that under the same situation if you extend your arm and roll, your opponent need only to straighten his back, change his ride a little, and pass your right arm across his face and down to your left side; now your screwed!!!!  You are either laying on one arm with the other arm being checked or you are on your stomach with your attacker on your back.  Not very good positions to be in, but avoidable if you are taught the correct way to do this technique on the ground, which is not to simply do Tripping Arrow as if standing up.

As for Robert's comment about the Universal Pattern, sure the universal pattern contains any and all paths of motion that an individual could take especially when you look at the 3-d image. So Robert, are you suggesting that you could get out of any position just because you know the Universal pattern?  Surely not. Each technique, position, drill, etc. requires practice and study in order to become proficient. These aren't subjects where you can infer untested knowledge and expect it to work.  At least that's not what I want from an instructor.


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## MJS (Nov 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> 
> 
> > Oh yeah--I forgot. How's about going back to my posts and find me where it is that I wrote the stuff that you're attributing to me, MJS? Or the quotes in which I went to other arts and said, "All very well, but what YOU guys don't know is...?"
> ...


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## MisterMike (Nov 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Shiatsu _
> *Very well said Mr. Ence as always.  You must of had/have a great instructor.
> 
> Mike what style is that.  It looks like a hapkido top, but it doesn't look like hapkido with the hakima and all.:asian: *



It is AikiJutsu. Which is comprised of three levels, Aiki-Jujutsu, Aiki-Jutsu and Aiki no Jutsu.

The first is more physical strength, the second involves more timing, and the last primarily timing.

The uniform I prefer is the black Judo top with a cotton hakama. There are lighter weights you can wear though.

I'd be curious to see what extensions in Kenpo use that type of lock. I went through the 32 system, so there were 32 extensions and none of them had it. No, I don't think they are fluff.  

There is a similar move in (Gift of Destiny) i think. IT may look the same, but feeling will tell you the difference, I guarrronteee.

Respectfully,


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## rmcrobertson (Nov 7, 2003)

Sorry, "MJS," but I can't find the threads. And I could be wrong, but I don't recall ever posting on the, "General Self Defense," threads--don't recall seeing them before, in fact. Would you mind either a) more specificity, or b) posting the quotes, or c) arranging for my long-term care in a home?

As for that lock...uh...in terms of APPLICATIONS, the posters who noted its appearance in several of the extensions are quite right. Circling Wing would bee my fave...but it also looks a hell of a lot like the base technique, Twisted Rod...especially since that takedown involves, "uprooting," the offender...

Speaking CONCEPTUALLY, I'd argue that changing the plane, angle, targets, applications, etc., happens all the time in kenpo. The "move," is learned, and the system taks you through a series of possible applications, and then (hopefully, but I'm a bit of a thickie) you start devising your own applications.

Oh yeah, I actually didn't think the mod warning applied to me. I was just gettin' ticked in general...


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## kenpo12 (Nov 7, 2003)

MisterMike,

  If you can't find that move in any of the extensions try looking at Long Form 3, trust me it's in there.

Matt


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## arnisador (Nov 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *Sorry, "MJS," but I can't find the threads. And I could be wrong, but I don't recall ever posting on the, "General Self Defense," threads--don't recall seeing them before, in fact. *



If the reference is to the General Self-Defense forum, note that a number of threads were moved there from other places when it was created.



> *
> Oh yeah, I actually didn't think the mod warning applied to me. I was just gettin' ticked in general... *



In-thread warnings are always directed at a general audience.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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## MJS (Nov 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *Sorry, "MJS," but I can't find the threads. And I could be wrong, but I don't recall ever posting on the, "General Self Defense," threads--don't recall seeing them before, in fact. Would you mind either a) more specificity, or b) posting the quotes, or c) arranging for my long-term care in a home?*


*

OOpppsss---Rob, my bad. They are in the Gen. MA talk.  Here are a few of the quotes:  There are a few from the Trad or MMA thread also!




			what's all this "reality," we keep hearing so much about?
		
Click to expand...





			I apologize. But these fantasies of achieving invulnerability...not to mention the fact that if you train well, you shouldn't notice whether or not the lights are on...and the fact that a class or two with the lights out, when in your heart you KNOW you're pretty safe won't suffice...
		
Click to expand...





			First, these posts suggest that at some point, all situations will have been covered and the practitioner will become invulnerable.
		
Click to expand...





			Second--for all the claims of practicality--you are in far more danger while driving than you will ever be "on the street," unless you've deliberately chosen to walk in way over your head.
		
Click to expand...





			It's fine--even great to train all which ways. But the claims that it's necessary, that it's practical...that's the movies. That's "Bloodsport."
		
Click to expand...





			And gutting martial arts in the pursuit of some dream of perfect completeness and efficiency...well, I'vee already posted enough on this.
		
Click to expand...





			It seems perfectly reasonable, to me, to adopt these methods of learning to fight. After all, they are perfectly in keeping with the rack of fantasies that the rest of our culture promotes, and they certainly will promote an efficient fighting. Or in other words, it's exactly the same issue as "Jurassic Park."
		
Click to expand...





			Oh, and incidentally, folks like Matt Thornton have the luxury of teaching very athletic students who want to fight. Their success doesn't necessarily say a thing about the superiority of their methods of teaching.
		
Click to expand...

*


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## arnisador (Nov 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by dcence _
> *Stickfighting -- the same principles of physics apply CONCEPTUALLY whether it is an FMA'er or Kenpo'er wielding the sticks.   FMA'ers are generally better at APPLYING  those CONCEPTS than Kenpo'ers because they focus on it.   *



Well, that is true as far as it goes--we all hit with the end of the stick most of the time, not the middle ("belly")--but in addition to physics, there are strategy choices. Will you design a system that emphasizes largo mano (long range techniques)? Or will it be a close-in system? Will you leave a lot of punyo (butt end of the stick) for close-in trapping, or very little so you have more range? Some systems focus on getting in so close that they can use stick grappling techniques (like the Dog Brothers) and others prefer to emphasize the non-stick hand's ability to control the opponenet's stick hand.

Is there one best strategy? I'd say No. Do all chess GrandMasters use the same opening, or more generally the same style of play? There's a paper-scissors-rock issue of how styles fare against one anotehr that, in my opinion, defeats the idea of a "best" style.

I think that the physics and the concepts aren't enough. It's analogous to knowing the rules and general principles of chess. You must impose a strategy on them to do something. Every martial art does this differently. Some like to enter and close-in, like JKD or grappling systems; others like to stay far away, like TKD. Some like to finish with takedowns, othgers with a barrage of blows. Those are strategy choices that allow one to make a very different art from the same understanding of principles--like two (teams of) engineers who, when told to design a car, use the same physics rules, the same general engineering concepts and principles, but find different solutions because of design choices made along teh way.

So, I don't think wyou go far enough in what you say. Even after that, there are still fairly arbitrary design choices to be made, and the paper-scissors-rock aspect of things means if you orient to defeat type B attacks, type C attacks will be more likely to get you, and vice versa.


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## kenpo12 (Nov 7, 2003)

arnisador,

I hear ya but you are mixing up styles with systems.  There is a huge difference between a system and a style.


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## pete (Nov 7, 2003)

this thread is getting crowded and you my have missed my examples, so i'l repost (or should i say riposte 



> I'd be curious to see what extensions in Kenpo use that type of lock -Mr Mike.





> Gift (against an aggressive handshake)





> Desperate Falcons (against double wrist grabs)





> Glancing Spear (left wrist grab from the left side)





> and for fun, we use Captured Twigs to counter this move



pete.


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## Michael Billings (Nov 7, 2003)

The lock you have posted is one I use in Gripping Talon.  It is not rotational, nor does it rely on pronation or supination - but works on the vertical plane if the thumb of the opponent is pointing down.  If I passed underneath their left arm, I end up in the lock you are demonstrating, or the throw.  Hapkido, Aki-Jitsu, Dai-jitsu, Wally Jay small cirlce ... it is all good to me, with lots of applications of levers and fulcrums, which is how I interpret in my Kenpo.    

Is this an insert, not unless you were taught it as an insert?  

Great Picture and application.

Oss,
-Michael


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## MisterMike (Nov 7, 2003)

OK - I saw those. We didn't do the newer extensions in my system. Just the 32 from the old Orange list.

I'd be curious to see them sometime though....


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## MisterMike (Nov 7, 2003)

Thanks Mr. Billings. Always a good exchange on here when we finally get to Martial Art substance! :asian:


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## dcence (Nov 7, 2003)

After it is all  said and done, we  must remember it is the APPLICATION that actually saves your bacon, not the CONCEPT from which it arises.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Nov 7, 2003)

Exactly!  Too much talk and not enough action is what happens when you spend time discussing concepts instead of applying concepts.


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## rmcrobertson (Nov 7, 2003)

MJS:

Sorry, but you are misreading. Each of these quotes speaks to a claim of superiority--a claim that one MUST train their way, a claim that EVERYONE ELSE is missing out, a claim that EVERYONE ELSE is wasting their time with "traditional," arts. And in no case did I write any of this first, but in response to such claims. Please go back and check, with particular reference to the good ol' days when you and ARK and a few others were many times making such claims. That is very much not the same thing as announcing that (for example) nobody in kenpo fights realistically, because nobody does any groundfighting, because there is no groundfighting in the kenpo system.

As for the difference between concepts/principles and applications, Mr. Ence, one can but agree. I can't say that I feel I train enough--other responsibilites, you know--but Wednesday, I was on the ol' blue thing from 5 to about 9, teeaching and getting my butt kicked, Sat. it'll be about the same, in between there are of course forms and basics, and I don't know what to tell you.

If I might suggest, the idea of "praxis," nicely covers the interrelationship between theory and practice, as I see it. On aanother plane, I'd simply note that invariably, working to the point that I can see and understand a technique or form or basic improves my ability to do them.

Thanks.


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## MJS (Nov 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *MJS:
> 
> 
> ...


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## arnisador (Nov 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kenpo12 _
> *arnisador,
> 
> I hear ya but you are mixing up styles with systems.  *



Perhaps in your view--but I may not be drawing the same distinction. When all is said and done, a particular person fights in a certain way! The comments on applying certain concepts were, it seemed to be, about the _physical_ application of the technique, where stick meets stick (or body). At that level, the strategy matters.



> *There is a huge difference between a system and a style. *



But a (particular) person always trains in a (particular) style, no? I'm not sure that taxonomy at the level of systms is relevant here--at least, I don't think it's relevant to the point I was trying to make, which is that understanding the difference between a Kenpoist's use of a stick and an eskrimador's use of a stick involves more than issues of "principles of physics" or even degree of familiarity/amount of practice time with the weapon. Even if we all agreed on that, one couldn't deduce how a single eskrimador might fight from the principles/concepts because each art chooses a strategy (strategies) to emphasize.


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## Seig (Nov 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *
> 
> 
> But a (particular) person always trains in a (particular) style, no?  *


 No.  In a nutshell, a system is the discipline you learn, your style is how you interpret and execute it.


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## arnisador (Nov 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> *No.  In a nutshell, a system is the discipline you learn, your style is how you interpret and execute it. *



OK. A different use of the word 'style' than what I am used to from Karate etc. but the idea is the same--the system is based on a strategy, and your individual style of implementing it surely follows from that, even if there's leeway (e.g., a judoka may prefer standing throws or may prefer groundwork but his 'style' isn't likely to be built around staying at long range and wearing them down with head kicks).

The strategy employed by the individual is inherited from the strategy on which the system is based, with tweaking--more tweaking in some systems, less in others--and so one must still toss in the adoption of certain strategy or set of assumptions (such as "90% of all fights go the ground," "you'll almost certainly be facing multiple, and armed, opponents," "even if your katana should break or be dropped the other samurai will still be holding his," or what have you). Principles and concepts--as I understand these terms--aren't enough. There are _arbitrary_ as well as _logical_ choices in the majority of systems. This is certainly true in the FMA, which was the example--an assumption of dueling against a single person in a small space (Balintawak Eskrima), an assumption that the other person will be carrying a blade or more likely blade_s_ (Sayoc Kali), and so on. It isn't enough to grasp the physics. You can develop _a_ system that way (plus choice of a strategy or of a 'problem' to be solved) but can't approach _all_ systems that way.


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## Michael Billings (Nov 8, 2003)

Jeff, just for entertainment, one of the "holes" Kenpo does not lack is a plethora of shared syntax and verbage.  This helps the "watchmakers" communicate with the "ironworkers" in the system.

System - The "Art" or "Mother Art" you chose.

Objective or Goal - Overall, in specific self-defense situations it would be to survive and overcome, or for some students to promote your well being and health through training.   Outside of the matial arts it could be to be the best high jumper around, to be the best tournament competetor, etc.

Strategy - How you plan to overcome the opposition, how you plan to reach your objective or goal, etc.

Tactics - Specific actions utilized, to win, to overcome, 

Principles -  comprehensive and fundamental rules that are based on theories, which analysis, and testing proves work, and are repeatable, e.g. rotation, or gravitational marriage, etc..

Concepts - Ideas or ideals in which your can frame your systems strategies; e.g. Three Phase Concept - teaches you to view self-defense techniques in three phases: Ideal Phase, What-If Phase, and Formulation Phase. 

Theories - e.g. Theory of Proportional Dimension - this theory teaches you how to use movements which are in proportion to your body. Applying this theory assists you in fitting the moves to you body.

It gets very, very complex.  Don't take any of these as set in stone.  Some are paraphrased, some I made up on the spot.  What I am trying to point out is the wide range of possible interpretations is not so wide within EPAK.

Lets bring it back to 

System = Art
Style = How you interpret your Art

... and it is a given, that there are different interpretation to this, i.e. "hard" styles or "soft" styles.  Or maybe it is a matter of actual language interpretation to English.  That is to say, we have all heard something like "My style is Hung-Gar" or "I am a Choy Li Fut stylist."

We don't all have to share the same interpretation, but let's agree on it in the context of each discussion and make allowances for differences.  

Note: On an EPAK forum, the semantics are generally "shared", so misinterpretations are minimal.  

-Michael


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## arnisador (Nov 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *System = Art
> Style = How you interpret your Art*



Thanks for the information Mr. Billings! I have been trying to learn more of this language and do have some Kenpo resources to turn to. I did gather the part quoted above from Seig's previous post but not all that was in your post. My point remains that a system imposes a strategy, and that that goes to this post:



> _Originally posted by dcence _
> Stickfighting -- the same principles of physics apply CONCEPTUALLY whether it is an FMA'er or Kenpo'er wielding the sticks. FMA'ers are generally better at APPLYING those CONCEPTS than Kenpo'ers because they focus on it.



Concepts are part of it, time spent applying/practicing is part of it, but there remains a difference due to strategies. Perhaps I am still speaking at cross-angles here, but I'm trying to say that this is an inadequate explanation of the differences, and that strategy choices built into the FMA system would be a big part of why that is so. (There's nothing special about the FMAs in this example. It's just an easy one for me to latch onto because I know something about the FMAs.) The above quote seems to downplay the differences, where as I think they are fairly large.



> *Note: On an EPAK forum, the semantics are generally "shared", so misinterpretations are minimal.  *



Indeed! Kenpo has a lot of language that allows Kenpoists to have discussions using a common tongue. We could use some of that in Modern Arnis. We still disagree on the names of individual techniques, let alone more subtle issues!


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Nov 9, 2003)

I'm not exactly sure that KENPO has a single strategy that is used by everyone except perhaps for survive at all costs, which is pretty much a mainstay of most martial arts.  I think you will find that each organization, and even the individual schools, will teach a philosophy or strategy that is somewhat unique.  If two people receive the same training from the same instructor then their philosophy will likely be similiar to their instructors, and in turn to each other's.  However, this philosophy also changes in accordance to the practitioners life experience and interpretation.  There are so many kenpo organizations, led by so many people with different life experiences, that it would be impossible to make such a blanket statement.

Now there are certain generic strategies that everyone seems to recognize, but they are generally implemented in accordance with their organizations philosophy.  For instance the Four ranges:  

1) Out of Contact- if we can, we would like to stay out here and avoid the fight in hopes that we could de-escalate the situation.  
2) Within Contact- we either create distance by moving back to category 1, or we close the gap and move into or through the next range.  
3) Contact Penetration- The opponent is controlled by a sequence of strikes which serves to end the fight or permit movement back to range 1,2, or 4.  
4) Contact Manipulation- The opponent is controlled by structural manipulation.  This serves to restrain the opponent, manipulate the opponents movement (i.e. create a human shield) or to destroy the structure of the opponents body by straining/tearing ligaments and tendons or breaking bones.

However I'm willing to bet that each of these ranges are addressed a little differently by each organization and/or school.


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## arnisador (Nov 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _
> *I'm not exactly sure that KENPO has a single strategy that is used by everyone except perhaps for survive at all costs, which is pretty much a mainstay of most martial arts.  I think you will find that each organization, and even the individual schools, will teach a philosophy or strategy that is somewhat unique. *



Yes, but within limits (perhaps the "generic strategies" as you say). Grapplers would take the strategy of closing for a throw (judo) or takedown (wrestling) to end the fight--a philosophy that it's safer in close, and that throwing is the key. A jujutsu or aikido person would take the strategy of looking for a lock or throw--a body throw in the former case, a throw using the arms in the latter case. (Of course, these are very much over-generalizations.) A TKD practitioner would take the strategy of staying far away and using kicks, including to the head, to maintain distance and knock the opponent down and/or out. A praying mantis person would use a body posture with the arms forward, hips back, and attempt to capture the arms and then strike and lock. None of those strategies are typical of, or strongly associated with, Kenpo. My experience with Kenpo has been that, as a practical matter, the strategy is often a block followed by several quick hand/elbow hits with maybe an occasional kick, then driving (not throwing) the person to the ground and finishing with strikes there. While I'm sure it varies from group to group and person to person, overall it's very different from the approach a BJJ person might use.

You could find similarities and differences between any two of these arts, but some arts take a strong stay-back strategy (e.g. TKD), some take a strong get-in startegy (e.g. grappling systems like Catch wrestling and clinch-oriented systems like JKD), some take a stand-and-fight strategy at various ranges (like boxing and Wing Chun), and so on.

So, at the very general level of strategy that I'm thinking of--is it better to clinch, better to take things to the ground, better to use mostly kicks, better to use mostly punches, etc.--a system is likely to have a philosophy that is reflected in their techniques. For a true "mixed martial art" it might be that most such approaches are trained in the art and then it really _is_ important to look at the individual's style. I see many people who study eight different arts that all have different high-level strategies and their individual style reflects perhaps two of them predominately.

Returning to the FMA example, many systems emphasize either largo mano (stay at long range and nickel-and-dime them with hand and wrist and forearm shots), or medio (where the second hand starts to come into play), or corto, where stick grappling and butt-end strikes start to predominate. Some truly like to grapple, to the point where the stick is of limited use after protecting the person while he or she enters. Some try to train all of these approaches and let the student choose his or her style.

Understanding the physics and principles of body movement aren't enough--a strategy choice must be made and techniques developed that fit that choice. Even in MMA, one often hears "now we'll train grappling style," "now we'll train striking style," etc., in recognition of this fact.


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## Brother John (Nov 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MisterMike _
> *It was a sacrastic "sneer" at those who do not look beyond the books. I'm on your side man...chill.
> *


There are many who can't think outside the books.
((paraphrasing Mr. Ence))
They are an excellent help, I wouldn't be without them if I could help it... but they aren't "ALL".

Your Brother
John


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## MJS (Nov 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Brother John (Nov 30, 2003)

Seems to me that a logical and open minded assessment of real combat would show that there are many facets of fighting and that no ONE art has all the answers to all the varriables...
Does American Kenpo do a good job of addressing as many as it can?
Yes, I think it does. But it's point of emphasis is on rapid stand-up balistic fighting skills (and at this, I feel/believe, it is KING) ... anything else is a secondary interpretation/expression.


Your Brother
John


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## SThiess (Dec 16, 2003)

No art is perfect as nothing in this univers is perfect. It is not the art or style which decides about "Winning or Losing" it is the martial artist and his attitude !


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## Brother John (Dec 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by SThiess _
> *No art is perfect as nothing in this univers is perfect. It is not the art or style which decides about "Winning or Losing" it is the martial artist and his attitude ! *


We aren't discussing what decides winning or losing, but rather the completeness of styles in addressing all conceivable circumstances.
But you are right.
It's the artist, not the art, that matters in the end.

Your Brother
John


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## MisterMike (Dec 16, 2003)

I think all arts are created to handle any situation. They all (ok most) have the comon goal to be either self-defense systems or martial arts.

Whether or not a situation is expessly taught or not is not a dependancy. It's how much you know your art and your ability to apply it to any situation. This of course takes time.


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## Ceicei (Dec 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MisterMike _
> *I think all arts are created to handle any situation. They all (ok most) have the comon goal to be either self-defense systems or martial arts.
> 
> Whether or not a situation is expessly taught or not is not a dependancy. It's how much you know your art and your ability to apply it to any situation. This of course takes time. *



I would certainly hope that any martial artist, regardless of the style, would have the flexibility of being able to adjust to a given situation instead of feeling locked into doing things a certain way.

When push comes to shove in real life, the martial artist will need to quickly look to self to do what is possible with their skills instead of "oh, I haven't learned this yet" or "this wasn't part of my training".  Bottom line is, the martial arts is adaptable--as far as a person is willing to adapt.  It isn't fixed, though the training may be sometimes.

- Ceicei


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## MisterMike (Dec 16, 2003)

Yep, I agree.


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## teej (Jan 10, 2004)

Different arts appeal to different people to deal with whatever you feel you might encounter. Grappling has received a lot of popularity and for good reason. The popularity has done a lot of good things and caused renewed training in this area.

Is any art complete? Hardly. So some arts or instructors are bringing other instructors to teach grappling. So what. Mr. Parker often trained with instructors of different styles. If you want to grapple, go grapple. Nothing wrong with that.

I see that some of you replying to this are not Kenpo practitioners. So in case you do not know, SGM Ed Parkers background was in boxing and judo before he started studying kenpo. Ed Parker realized at an early age that grappling in an attack with mutiple opponents would be fatal. (grappling does have its place, I am not knocking that) Kenpo is an art designed to deal with and get you out of a situation when encountering multiple opponents. Yes, it deals with one opponent also.

Don't put kenpo down because it does not teach indepth grappling. In Mr. Parkers early years, he knew grappling against multiple opponents was suicide, so he started studying kenpo. Later on after much training, and experimenting, he formed American Kenpo.

I have no doubt that were Mr. Parker still alive, the new interest in grappling would have caused some response. What direction would SGM Parker have taken, we can only guess. He isn't here, he can't do it now, we will never know.  So everyone is free to go out and explore grappling and encorporate it how they feel they can.

If you are a Kenpo practioner and want to search out instruction on how to do this or guidance to do it, there is a Kenpo instructor named Martin Wheeler. He has been incorporating grappling into Kenpo for several years now. He is a fantastic martial artist and instructor, and he travels giving seminars on the subject. I think his web site is www.ironmonkeyma.com  , if that is not correct, I will post a correction later. He also has a very, very good tape series you can get info from his site on.

So, yes there are instructors out there exploring grappling more. There is nothing wrong with you doing it either. But is kenpo incomplete? No, I don't think so. That is not what is was formed for. American Kenpo is primarily and stand up art, the bases behind its formulation being able to deal with multiple opponents. In that subject area, it is very complete.

Yours in Kenpo,
Teej
That is the correct web site for Martin Wheeler. If you go there, click on his tapes and click the free download demo. On my slow computer, it took 5 minutes, but it show clips through all his tapes, the last ones are clips from his tapes on locks and grappling & kenpo.  fyi


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## Ceicei (Jan 10, 2004)

> _Originally posted by teej _
> *I have no doubt that were Mr. Parker still alive, the new interest in grappling would have caused some response. What direction would SGM Parker have taken, we can only guess. He isn't here, he can't do it now, we will never know.  So everyone is free to go out and explore grappling and encorporate it how they feel they can.*



If Mr. Parker was still alive...

What we do know is that he believed in innovation.  Your comments make sense to me.

- Ceicei


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## MJS (Jan 11, 2004)

> _Originally posted by teej _
> *Different arts appeal to different people to deal with whatever you feel you might encounter. Grappling has received a lot of popularity and for good reason. The popularity has done a lot of good things and caused renewed training in this area.
> 
> Is any art complete? Hardly. So some arts or instructors are bringing other instructors to teach grappling. So what. Mr. Parker often trained with instructors of different styles. If you want to grapple, go grapple. Nothing wrong with that.
> ...



Again, I dont think that anyone is saying that you need to stop Kenpo and start to grapple.  IMO, it is important to have some basic knowledge of it.  Will you fight an expert grappler on the street? Maybe/maybe not.  It doesnt have to be BJJ either.  A wrestler can be just as devastating.  Just having some basic moves that you can add to what you're already doing is perfectly fine, though some people will disagree.

As for the mult. attackers.  I think that the most important thing to do is to make sure that you are in control.. If you can grab one of the guys, put him between you and the others, and all the while, make sure that you're pounding him, will be a huge advantage for you.  I have seen a Kenpo tape of mult. attackers, and IMO, I was not impressed.  How can you pre-set how the attackers will be attacking??  You cant!  Rather than 1 at a time, it will be more like 3 or 4 at a time.  Standing in the center, while they attack you 1 at a time---that is a fantasy!

Mike


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## MisterMike (Jan 11, 2004)

I think it behooves the martial artist to study or become acclimated to different styles of fighting. To only learn one art will only limit yourself. It's like going to a candy store and only buying tootsie rolls.

Oh, as a side note, if you attend a school that is against you visiting another school, or cross-training, I would seriously question their policies.

There's just too many good flavors out there. We'll never have time to taste them all, but you'll eventually find the one you like best.


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## pete (Jan 11, 2004)

> There's just too many good flavors out there. We'll never have time to taste them all, but you'll eventually find the one you like best. - mr mike.



you said it.  nobody ever told me i had to paint all the rooms in my house the same color.

wait what's that... the sound of my biological clock ticking or a time bomb?

:bomb:


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## kenpo12 (Jan 12, 2004)

Most of the people who say they will just use kenpo moves on the ground have never had a skilled grappler take them down.  Also, when I say skilled grappler it doesn't mean someone who has done BJJ for 10 years, just have someone who has wrestled in high school for about year take you down and see if you can get back to your feet.  I know it will be harder than you think if you've never done it.


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## MJS (Jan 12, 2004)

> _Originally posted by kenpo12 _
> *Most of the people who say they will just use kenpo moves on the ground have never had a skilled grappler take them down.  Also, when I say skilled grappler it doesn't mean someone who has done BJJ for 10 years, just have someone who has wrestled in high school for about year take you down and see if you can get back to your feet.  I know it will be harder than you think if you've never done it. *



Very true!

Mike


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Jan 12, 2004)

I have to say that after nearly a year of ranting about cross-training and grappling on this and other forums, someone has finally shown me a link to a Kenpo site with some really good stuff!

I was very impressed by the video preview showing Kenpo, Judo, FMA, and maybe some Systema techniques well integrated.  

Bravo!  This is what I've been looking for...too bad they are in Kentucky and I am in California...


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## teej (Jan 12, 2004)

I understand Knepo12's point and in that you are correct. But remember that Kenpo is not about techniques. Kenpo is the study of body mechanics and motion. The principles of Kenpo can be used on the ground, but you have to train on the ground. There is no substitue for actual ground training. (and you can't beat the workout you get grappling) 

But if you are looking at Kenpo's stand up techniques and are trying to visions someone doing it while on their back, well ya, it won't work. 

The techniques learned studying Kenpo are purley tools to teach Kenpo. Kenpo is the study of body mechanics and principles. Some princilpes are universal and apply to stand up fighting and ground fighting. You still have to work, practice on the ground to find out, there is no substitute! But if you are looking at Kenpo as purley techniques, you are incorrect. It is not about techniques. The kenpo moves on the ground are principles and body mechanics. But you are correct, if someone does not practice on the ground and a novice grappler takes them down, they will have a difficult time getting back up.

Yours in Kenpo,
Teej


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