# Taichi push hand



## Zeny (Mar 3, 2021)

Hi all

I’m back!

Life happened

And I wrote a taichi book

Check out this video, there’s a link to a preview of the book

Would love to hear your feedback and comment


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 3, 2021)

What's the combat value to push your opponent away?

In a car accident, I prevented a guy from going back to his car. Later on the police found out that guy had a gun in his glove compartment.

One should keep his friend close, but his enemy closer.

Do you feel safer when your opponent is under your control (instead of moving away from you)?


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## Zeny (Mar 3, 2021)

No combat value

We are just playing

Better practise sparring if want to learn combat

Its like a paintball game

Paintball is not a military exercise

A soldier asks a paintball player, what is the combat value of playing paintball, you should aim real guns!

Paintball player: ...

Two different worlds


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## drop bear (Mar 3, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What's the combat value to push your opponent away?
> 
> In a car accident, I prevented a guy from going back to his car. Later on the police found out that guy had a gun in his glove compartment.
> 
> ...



You can utilise it in striking against a clinch attempt.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 3, 2021)

Zeny said:


> No combat value ...


You can make it to have combat value. If you can control your opponent's leg/legs, your push can be a throw.

- 1 point contact is a push.
- 2 points contact in the opposite direction is a throw.


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## Zeny (Mar 3, 2021)

As you said, pushing is of limited value in combat

I prefer to keep things separate

If you mix it it becomes neither here nor there

Opps the moderator removed the youtube link

Please pm me if you would like a free preview copy of my book


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## Flying Crane (Mar 5, 2021)

Of course push-hands has combat value.  It’s one-to-one translation applications may not be 100%, but it develops attributes that are useful in combat and raises one’s skill level.  Attributes like rooting, finding the enemy’s center of balance and gravity, sensitivity to his movement, redirecting his aggression, manipulating and controlling his movement.  How is any of that irrelevant to combat?

The mistake is when people expect push-hands to translate directly to combat 100%.  Well, nothing does that except actual combat itself.  Not even sparring.  But if people think that skill in push-hands is all that is needed for combat, there is the mistake. There is more to it than that.  But push hands can absolutely be useful in developing combat skills, it can be part of a useful toolbox.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 5, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Of course push-hands has combat value.


It's not that difficult to add in the control of your opponent's leg when you do Taiji PH. You can control your opponent's leg with your hand, or with your leg.



Zeny said:


> As you said, pushing is of limited value in combat
> 
> I prefer to keep things separate.


It always a good idea to kill 2 birds with 1 stone.


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## Zeny (Mar 5, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Of course push-hands has combat value.  It’s one-to-one translation applications may not be 100%, but it develops attributes that are useful in combat and raises one’s skill level.  Attributes like rooting, finding the enemy’s center of balance and gravity, sensitivity to his movement, redirecting his aggression, manipulating and controlling his movement.  How is any of that irrelevant to combat?
> 
> The mistake is when people expect push-hands to translate directly to combat 100%.  Well, nothing does that except actual combat itself.  Not even sparring.  But if people think that skill in push-hands is all that is needed for combat, there is the mistake. There is more to it than that.  But push hands can absolutely be useful in developing combat skills, it can be part of a useful toolbox.



In the karate kid movie / cobra kai series, cleaning the wall has combat value

If combat value means anything that can add to combat skills, then jogging has combat value

Rope jumping has combat value

Reading about boxing has combat value

Everything has combat value

That makes the phrase combat value meaningless for discussion

For me, I do push hands for fun

If I want to learn to fight, then although everything helps, the most important thing is to spar


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## Zeny (Mar 5, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It always a good idea to kill 2 birds with 1 stone.



I prefer to keep things separate

When we play paintball, we play paintball

I don’t play paintball to learn to be a soldier

But you can do what you want, of course


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 6, 2021)

Zeny said:


> In the karate kid movie / cobra kai series, cleaning the wall has combat value
> 
> If combat value means anything that can add to combat skills, then jogging has combat value
> 
> ...



Push hands training is directly related to the usage of taijiquan in a fight. and that was its original purpose. It does not have to be trained that way if you do not wish to train it that way, but it is part of the martial training of taijiquan. It is not directly applicable in most cases, but in some it is, and it does have it uses in training/learning the proper application of taijiquan in a confrontation.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 6, 2021)

Zeny said:


> In the karate kid movie / cobra kai series, cleaning the wall has combat value
> 
> If combat value means anything that can add to combat skills, then jogging has combat value
> 
> ...


That’s fine.  If push hands is just for fun for you, no worries.  But that doesn’t change the fact that it is part of a functional method for developing combat skills.

Just to note:  running helps combat skills.  That is why every military today includes running as part of the conditioning for their soldiers, and every competitive fighter does road work.  Likewise jumping rope contributes to combat skill, which is why it is used by boxers in their conditioning.  Sure, these things aren’t direct application to fighting technique, but they develop attributes that are definitely useful for fighting.  Neither are required to be a good fighter.  But they are definitely helpful. 

I would say that push hands has a greater direct application than either running or jumping rope, in terms of applied technique.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 6, 2021)

Zeny said:


> And I wrote a taichi book
> 
> Check out this video, there’s a link to a preview of the book
> 
> Would love to hear your feedback and comment


Does your Taiji book have combat application?


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## Zeny (Mar 6, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Does your Taiji book have combat application?



There’s some discussion on timing, methods of countering incoming force and methods of issuing force.

No discussion on leg sweep, throwdowns or punching someone in the face tho.


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## Zeny (Mar 6, 2021)

Below is a good video on the value of push hands, which I agree

Watch from 11:10 to 12:00

He said push hands is good for developing a lot of skills, but if want to fight in the ring, then need to learn to fight in the ring

That is why I avoid saying push hands has combat value, because that inevitably invites a challenge to show using push hands skill in an actual fight

Doing push hands does not mean we can become good fighters, to be good at fighting, we need to learn to fight

Don’t know why we are having this discussion because everyone here obviously knows the value of push hands and its limitations


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 6, 2021)

Taij PH can be so abstract.


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## JowGaWolf (Mar 7, 2021)

Zeny said:


> Doing push hands does not mean we can become good fighters, to be good at fighting, we need to learn to fight


I agree. This is true for any system.  I could do boxing fitness classes everyday and never gain any real fighting skill to apply.  Even having a good punch doesn't mean that a person now has fighting skills.



Zeny said:


> Don’t know why we are having this discussion because everyone here obviously knows the value of push hands and its limitations


Yep.
I think this issue is that you'll have to deal with is not about the limitations of push hands but the exaggeration of push hands.  There's people out there who take advantage of it and make it more than what it really is.  I learned it from a combat perspective and a lot of the "magic" about it goes away really quickly.  From my perspective training it as a fighting system put it into perspective and helped to keep me grounded.

Based on that perspective my personal opinion is that all martial arts should be treated as a fighting system, even if the person doesn't want to learn how to fight.  By training it as a fighting system it's possible to keep the context and the reality of the system accurate.  But when you train something outside of the context of fighting then it becomes something different.  The actions in push hands no longer are done in the context of fighting so you push hand in a manner that you wouldn't in a fight. It's no different than being good at doing kung fu demos.  Things often happen in demos that would never happen in a fight.  This is because the context has changed.  Kung fu is no longer good for fighting, because it's being done in the context of making good looking demos

If people want to stay healthy then fight (spar).  It doesn't have to be hard sparring.  It could be light sparring.  1 minute of good light sparring with movement is surprisingly challenging, even for people who are in shape. Sparring is a good outlet for teaching control (physically, mentally, emotionally).  You can still do push hands in sparring, it's just going to take more effort especially if the person isn't willing to grapple.  But by doing so you are able to keep it within the context of fighting.

Do I do push hands?  Yes, when someone is willing to train it with me.
Has push hands helped me in fighting?  Yes, but along the line of sensitivity and recognizing which way I should let my opponents energy flow.  Thanks to push hands, I can tell if someone is rooted or not by how the punches land on me people who drive power through there legs, hips, or just arms, all have a different feel.  Push hands has helped me with that.  But I think it only helped me because of the context of how I train push hands.  I don't think I would have gained the same skill sets if I would have practiced push hands out of the context of fighting.  When I train push hands it looks like what you are doing, but the context is different and I'm just a big believer that the context of how we do things matters.  It's like reading a book.  You can read car manual to help you go to sleep or you can read it to help you learn about your car.  Context is everything


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## Flying Crane (Mar 7, 2021)

Zeny said:


> Below is a good video on the value of push hands, which I agree
> 
> Watch from 11:10 to 12:00
> 
> ...


I would say that we are having this discussion because you started a thread where you stated that you wrote a book on Taiji and you posted a video of you doing push hands.  This sends a message that you consider yourself knowledgeable on the topic, and a reasonable assumption that you would consider push hands as a useful tool for developing fighting skills.  Maybe you don’t feel that way, maybe your position is more nuanced (which I consider to be a good thing) but I think the assumption is reasonable.  

As you say, if you wan to learn to fight in the ring then you need to get in and fight in the ring.  But I am certain that no successful MMA school simply throws their students into the ring without a whole lot of technical and strategy training first and ongoing.  I would hazard that the time spent fighting in a ring is a small fraction of the total training time, with far more time spent on honing technique, hitting pads and heavy bags, doing interacting partnering drills that have more control and focus on specific skills than you can do simply fighting in a ring.  Within the context of Taiji, I would include push hands in this group of training methods. In short, learning to fight in the ring takes far far more than getting in and fighting in a ring. 

I will also point out that by far, most people involved in the martial arts have no interest in ever fighting in a ring.  We have this false dichotomy where people seem to want to claim that you have two (and only two) choices in martial arts:  become an MMA champion, or else you have zero fighting skills.  This is, of course, an absurd position.  MMA is not the definitive yardstick against which all martial arts must be measured.  There is a whole lot of room between MMA champion and Zero Skills, and much of that room includes effective fighting skills.  Let’s be honest: there are a whole lot of folks who would not last ten seconds against an MMA champion, or even a lower level MMA competitor, who nevertheless can defend themselves quite handily against most anyone who might try to give them trouble on the street. 

Now if MMA type competition, or fighting in a ring is what you want to do, then you would be well advised to get an experienced coach and follow the training methods that have been shown to be effective to that end.  But for those who have no interest in that kind of thing, there are other effective methods that can build useful skills.   I hold that push hands can be one of those tools, if practiced appropriately as part of a larger training routine.  And I will be among the first to acknowledge that good teachers who can train you correctly in Taiji and push hands are few and far between and that many people who practice Taiji and push hands do so at a low level and probably cannot fight.  But that is a problem in how the training is being done and not with the tools themselves.


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## JowGaWolf (Mar 7, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> I will also point out that by far, most people involved in the martial arts have no interest in ever fighting in a ring. We have this false dichotomy where people seem to want to claim that you have two (and only two) choices in martial arts: become an MMA champion, or else you have zero fighting skills.


I agree with this and would even say that there is a culture where sparring or training to fight is a bad thing that should only be done if your plans are to fight.  People can train those aspects and get the benefit from them.  Sparring or training to fight doesn't mean one is suddenly going to be in a bunch of real fights, or in MMA competitions.  Those things can be done at different levels of intensity which will allow people to get the benefits of the training.  Fighting or doing competition is an option.  Knowing how to fight doesn't mean fighting is the only option.  Many of us know how to fight, but are more likely to walk away from one, and have no interest in competing in MMA. But if there ever comes a time where we NEED to fight to ensure our safety.  We will be more than happy to "light that fire."


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 7, 2021)

Said this a long long time ago on MT, possibly 10 years ago or more

MMA trains to fight a person in the ring that they will very likely see again, and possibly fight again
TMA trains to fight a person they hope to never see again, for that matter, they hope to never fight in the first place


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## JowGaWolf (Mar 7, 2021)

Xue Sheng said:


> TMA trains to fight a person they hope to never see again, for that matter, they hope to never fight in the first place


And before it starts..  This is in the context of training a TMA for the purpose of fighting in the context of defending against an attacker on the street, where there isn't that level of trust that is found in competitive fighting or sparring.    It does not mean that everyone who trains a TMA trains with the goal of self-defense or actual use (application).  Thinking that you are training for self-defense is not the same as actually doing it.  One can "Think that they are training for fighting." , but in reality they are training incorrectly but don't realize it.

I thought I would just add that to your statement.  You know how things can get if you aren't specific to the point lol.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 7, 2021)

Zeny said:


> And I wrote a taichi book ...





Zeny said:


> There’s some discussion on timing, methods of countering incoming force and methods of issuing force.
> 
> No discussion on leg sweep, throwdowns or punching someone in the face tho.


If your Taiji book has no MA application, 100 years from today, people will say that you

- don't understand Taiji application.
- try to hide Taiji secret and not willing to share.

In both cases, it will be bad for your Taiji reputation.


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## JowGaWolf (Mar 7, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If your Taiji book has no MA application, 100 years from today, people will say that you
> 
> - don't understand Taiji application.
> - try to hide Taiji secret and not willing to share.
> ...


I agree there's a big difference in understanding  between doing an technique and applying a technique.,  He wouldn't have to wait 100 years for people to say that.   All of that can happen within a day.  If he went to an MMA group, people will say those things within an hour.

Your post is something that someone who cares about application would say.  I'm  similar.  I am quick to say that someone "doesn't understand Martial Arts application." Even if I don't know the system in discussion.  I just know from my own experience that knowing how to apply a martial art technique is a much bigger understanding of that technique.  It's not ego speaking as it applies to everything.  Someone can go through the movements of playing the guitar and not have the skill set to actually play the guitar.  Knowing how to play the guitar requires a deeper understanding than just knowing the motions.

I see martial arts the same way.

But with that said,   you and I are biased because application means a lot to us.  In our minds it shouldn't separated.


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## Zeny (Mar 7, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If your Taiji book has no MA application, 100 years from today, people will say that you
> 
> - don't understand Taiji application.
> - try to hide Taiji secret and not willing to share.
> ...



Get a copy then do a review?

Thank you for your support


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## JowGaWolf (Mar 7, 2021)

Zeny said:


> Get a copy then do a review?


I see you have your eyes on the goal.  I can't  blame you for that.  Keep that focus.  I'm sure there are lots of people who will buy what you are selling.  You are training a system where most of the customers only care about health and have very little interest in fighting or learning how to fight.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 7, 2021)

Zeny said:


> Get a copy then do a review?


I'm only interested in the combat side of Taiji.

Many years ago, I was interested in to bring the leg skill back into Taiji. Today, I'm no longer interested in doing that.


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## Zeny (Mar 7, 2021)

Why not? There is a free preview copy which is from cover to chapter 3

You can give your opinion (whether good or bad, both welcome) after you have seen the book

I have comfortable earnings and don’t need the income from the book, but as I have spent a lot of time and effort on it, getting a few cups of coffee or meals out of it is also nice


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 20, 2021)

formlessfighter said:


> for anyone interested in some tai chi push hands demonstration...



I am not disagreeing with any of this, other than the push hands videos you have been posting have more to do with the 13 postures usage. But I am wondering why you have spammed so many of the taijiquan post with videos


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 20, 2021)

formlessfighter said:


> for anyone interested in some tai chi push hands demonstration...


If you train how to control your opponent's arms, why don't you also train how to control his leg/legs too? Will it be better to push your opponent down instead of just to push him away?

If you can just add shin bite and reverse shin bite into the Taiji PH, The Taiji PH will have much more combat value.


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 21, 2021)

jacobus_nimwit said:


> what's with the gatekeeping? honestly, i am appreciative of any new content being posted on this forum, as things have been pretty dead in this forum. The last post i see on this thread is March 7... thats like 5 months ago. please stop this kind of talk. the minute this forum starts going down that road is when this forum will die and from the looks of things, it may already be too late.
> 
> please re-evaluate your position on this. if you don't agree with someone's post, just keep your mouth shut about it. unless the post is hurting someone in some way, i really dont understand the need for replies like yours Xue Sheng.
> 
> ...



I really don't understand your reaction at all. No need to re-evaluate anything, not even any gate keeping. So calm down, relax, breathe, all I did was ask a question as it applies to the large number of video posts for the same person. So no need for defensiveness or attacks.

as for the video, I'm sorry, but it is using push hands, and it is a fine video, it is just more about the 13 postures, of which "ahn' (an) is one of them, while using push hands.


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 21, 2021)

jacobus_nimwit said:


> sir, when you talk about the 13 postures, what are you even talking about? the 13 postures literally encompasses everything about tai chi.
> 
> 13 postures is the 8 energies and 5 directions. ward off, roll back, press, push, shoulder stroke, split, pull down, elbow strike, advance, retreat, look left, gaze right, central equilibrium. that encompasses everything within tai chi. push hands uses the 13 postures. you cannot do push hands without the 13 postures. hell, you cant do anything without utilizing the 13 postures in some way. so your statement that the video in question "is just more about the 13 postures" just doesnt even make sense as a criticism or comment. according to your logic, you could say the same thing about any and every aspect of tai chi.
> 
> ...



Do you know how many times on MT, someone has shown up, posted something then got challenged or questions and then went and made one or more profile to be support what they said or to be confrontational...not saying that is what is happening here, but it is a bit suspicious.

The 13 postures is part of taijiquan and 13 postures can be utilized in push hands, but there is a lot more about push hands and taijiquan that does not include the 13 postures. As a matter of fact there are a lot more postures than 13 in taijiquan, all of which have applications, that are not part of the 13 postures.

You are either defending the videos that I don't understand why you are defending when all I did was ask a question and say it was mre 13 postures than push hands. But not once did I attack, berate or belittle the content or you are simply choosing to be confrontational for reason I do not understand.

 I will say your above post shows you have a lot to about taijiquan. 

You claim to appreciate the content, yet you seem bent on turning this into a flame war. Which by the way i not good advertising for the videos


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 21, 2021)

jacobus_nimwit said:


> Very interesting how you were the first person to look down your nose and criticize a post, yet you are accusing me of doing it.
> 
> Funny how it doesnt count when you do it to others yet you are hypersensitive when you get a taste of your own medicine.
> 
> ...



You do realize there is a certain type of poster whose tactics you are using don’t you?

You are adding an entire narrative to what I posted that does not exist and you are seeing a lot more emotion in it than is there. 

I never criticized the video, all I said was it was it was 13 postures not push hands. And as far as you having a lot to learn about taijiquan that was based on your post about the 13 postures and the fact that you seem to know nothing about all of the push hands training and drills that have nothing to do with the 13 postures. It is that which tells me you have a lot to learn.

And as I said, I never criticized the video, never said they were wrong, never said the person in the video did not know what they were talking about. Even though there were lot posted in multiple threads. I was wondering about the multitude of videos without any text. But I never criticized the videos, so I do not know where you are getting that from. All I said is that it was 13 postures, meaning more 13 postures than push hands. However If I did see something wrong, I would point it out and there would be no question and no need to put words in my mouth that I never said or typed.

As to butt-hurt, no, not at all. More dismayed than anything else at your continual repose and accusations to things I never said or even implied have me a bit confused. As for calling me out, you put a lot more impotence on your posts than I do, and you are not calling someone out if you are making up things and responding to things they never said or even implied. 

And if this has been going on for 5 months, why did you not register before and defend someone. I have my doubts about your sincerity here. If you are the poster then discuss it, if you are the teacher in the video this type of response does not bode well for your students, if you are a student, you need to relax and calm down. And the CMA section has been incredibly quiet for much more than 5 months. It has been mostly the Wing Chun guys posting in it these days, and even they are posting less and less

But I have allowed you to waste of my time long enough and I will no longer allow that to go on. Please feel free to respond, rail, argue, accuse. make-up things and the like.…..I am done allowing you to waste my time

Have a nice day


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## isshinryuronin (Aug 21, 2021)

Dear Nimwit,

Thank you for being the guardian and protector of MT.  No doubt your long and active affiliation   with this site has instilled you with a deep sense of ownership.  Oh.  This is only your 2nd day here!
Thanks for stopping by, but I'm sure there are other sites that would LOVE your input and appreciate you more.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 22, 2021)

Why the leg control is not part of the Taiji PH? Does anybody have the answer?


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 22, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Why the leg control is not part of the Taiji PH? Does anybody have the answer?



it is part of taiji push hands, especially in Chen style.....


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 22, 2021)

Xue Sheng said:


> it is part of taiji push hands, especially in Chen style.....


Yang Taiji has 7 star stance in

- hand playing lute,
- defending hand,
- step forward to 7 star.

The 7 star stance is used to control your opponent's leading leg. But Yang Taiji guys just don't use it in PH.


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## Oily Dragon (Aug 22, 2021)

Well, it's not called "push legs".

Shou is shou.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 22, 2021)

Oily Dragon said:


> Well, it's not called "push legs".
> 
> Shou is shou.


If you use 7 star stance to control your opponent's back leg when you push, he will fall. This skill already exist in the Taiji system, why not just use it?


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## Diaitadoc (Aug 22, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Why the leg control is not part of the Taiji PH? Does anybody have the answer?


Three reasons:

1) Push Hands is a beginner practice meant to teach basic principles of balance, bracing, timing & positional control against resisting opponents in order to prepare students for the more rigorous practices of San shou & Shuai jiao.

2) Push hands is a progressive practice intended to start from the simplest scenario (fixed step) & progress to the most complex scenario (moving step with trips & sweeps) before it becomes something else (San shou or Shuai Jiao).

3) most Taiji schools have forgotten this progression & focus on push hands as though it were the end goal / ultimate expression of TaijiQuan Combat, believing Instead that they will develop some sort of supernatural abilities to deal with any touch they receive. so they get stuck at either the moving step or sometimes even the fixed step push hands level, without continuing the progression (which would logically include leg picks/catches/controls at the next level, ie. Shuai Jiao without the funny jackets).


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 22, 2021)

Diaitadoc said:


> Shuai Jiao without the funny jackets.


The SJ jacket is also called "hero skin". When you have it on, if anybody challenges you, you have to accept the challenge and you cannot refuse it. When you have it on, if you get hurt (or killed), you cannot sue anybody.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 22, 2021)

Diaitadoc said:


> 2) Push hands is a progressive practice intended to start from the simplest scenario (fixed step) & progress to the most complex scenario (moving step with trips & sweeps) before it becomes something else (San shou or Shuai Jiao).


Agree with you 100% on this.

This is the Chang Taiji PH training. It has 4 different stages.


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 23, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Yang Taiji has 7 star stance in
> 
> - hand playing lute,
> - defending hand,
> ...



Diagonal flying, and for the record, the guy in the picture, is not close enough to the person he is demonstrating on. He is not in control of the guys center and he needs to be







there are also a few more, but to be honest, I'm not going to go look for videos or pictures. However, do most folks practicing taijiquan today use them this way?.... no, they probably don't even know the application exists. There is a lot of qinna and Shuaijiao in traditional taijiquan, but most doing taiji today are only doing the moving meditation.

Look for videos from Liang Shouyu or some from Yang Jwing Ming and you will se applications.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 23, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The SJ jacket is also called "hero skin". When you have it on, if anybody challenges you, you have to accept the challenge and you cannot refuse it. When you have it on, if you get hurt (or killed), you cannot sue anybody.


I wouldn’t hang my hat on that notion.  Not in the US at least.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 23, 2021)

Xue Sheng said:


> Diagonal flying, and for the record, the guy in the picture, is not close enough to the person he is demonstrating on. He is not in control of the guys center and he needs to be


IMO, the Taiji diagonal fly can be executed in 2 different ways.

You can throw your opponent

1. backward - you need to control his back leg.
2. sideway - you need to control his front leg.

It's just common sense that if you let your opponent to have 2 free legs, he can easily get away.


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## Oily Dragon (Aug 28, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you use 7 star stance to control your opponent's back leg when you push, he will fall. This skill already exist in the Taiji system, why not just use it?
> 
> View attachment 27144


Shou.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 28, 2021)

Oily Dragon said:


> Shou.


The static push hand make no sense. According to the general MA guideline, your 

- hand should coordinate with your foot.
- elbow should coordinate with your knee.
- shoulder should coordinate with your hip.

By freezing your legs and just move your arms just violate the general MA guideline big time.


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## Oily Dragon (Aug 28, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The static push hand make no sense. According to the general MA guideline, your
> 
> - hand should coordinate with your foot.
> - elbow should coordinate with your knee.
> ...



Unless you can't use your legs.  Then it all makes perfect sense.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 28, 2021)

Oily Dragon said:


> Unless you can't use your legs.  Then it all makes perfect sense.


Why should you let the sport ruleset to restrict your combat skill development? If the more that you train the static PH, the less that you know how to use your leg, it's better not to train static PH at all.


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## Oily Dragon (Aug 28, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Why should you let the sport ruleset to restrict your combat skill development?



There are a lot of ways you can't use your legs so much.  Sports only cover a few.

If you're tangled up with someone on the ground, you're not doing any fancy trips.  That's when shou matters most.

_手_


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