# n00b sparring- bad idea or good training?



## jamz (Jan 20, 2008)

I started MA a couple months ago with a bunch of other old fat people like myself.  We are all yellow belts now, maybe halfway through this particular phase, probably testing for orange at the end of February sometime.  We are all beginners, not experienced, etc.

Now with the stuff I've learned so far, a couple strikes, kicks and blocks,  I'd really like to spar with someone, which they don't encourage in the dojo yet for us.  My question is, is this typical newbie overexcitement, or is limited sparring (like 50% speed/power, appropriate sparring gear) a good idea to get used to using the stuff in a more realistic fashion?

Mainly I'd like to see if I can get good enough to block something other than a staged lunging overhand punch.


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## IWishToLearn (Jan 20, 2008)

In my school, sparring for white, yellow, and orange belts is restricted to sparring only purple belts and above; mostly because by the time my students hit purple they have enough control to take a stiff shot and not react out of anger or engage in "can you top this" mentality. The purple belts+ will push the younger students but never strike to bruise, injure, or harm...just to get them moving and learning to use their material dynamically. Example: two white belts cannot spar, and no white, yellow, or orange can spar with any other white, yellow, or orange in our system. This rule includes those who come from other schools with significant training...they are held to the same standard of only sparring with Purple+ classmates.


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## jks9199 (Jan 20, 2008)

jamz said:


> I started MA a couple months ago with a bunch of other old fat people like myself.  We are all yellow belts now, maybe halfway through this particular phase, probably testing for orange at the end of February sometime.  We are all beginners, not experienced, etc.
> 
> Now with the stuff I've learned so far, a couple strikes, kicks and blocks,  I'd really like to spar with someone, which they don't encourage in the dojo yet for us.  My question is, is this typical newbie overexcitement, or is limited sparring (like 50% speed/power, appropriate sparring gear) a good idea to get used to using the stuff in a more realistic fashion?
> 
> Mainly I'd like to see if I can get good enough to block something other than a staged lunging overhand punch.


Generally, I have students at your level doing sparring exercises more than free sparring.  In other words, they're doing exercises that help them develop the skills necessary to free spar.

Sparring is a method of practicing what you've learned against an opponent.  Practice is an exercise designed to improve your skills.  Accordingly, before you can spar, you need to have learned something.

Let me explain some of the "building block" exercises for sparring.  You're already doing partner exercises, where one person throws a strike for the other to block.  When you first learn a technique, like an overhead block, the strike should come in pretty slowly, very predictably, and the attacker should more or less let you deliver the counter attack without interfering.  But... after several repitions, the speed should be increasing, the telegraphing or predictability should be decreasing, and the defense against the counter-attack should be showing up.  In time, it should look almost like an unscripted attack & defense, because the attacker is coming with little or no telegraph, at full speed and power, without passively accepting the counter, while the defender is countering with speed and power.  Throughout, even at the lowest, slowest point, you must have a risk of contact, if not injury.  In other words -- the strike has to be in range to hit if you don't respond.

It's a gradual escalation, and the rate of escalation will depend on the relative skills of the partners.  I and another black belt may be able to take a new technique, and in the course of an hour or so, escalate to nearly full speed/power.  A pair of new students may need to work that same technique for several lessons before they even approach full speed/power.

There are also other sparring exercises, like dodging bats/blocking poles/pads, offense exercises like hitting a target pad that's pulled away if you telegraph or take to long, and lots more.

Generally, I can have a student doing either controlled/assigned role sparring or some free sparring in a month or three, with a very limited repetoire.


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## CuongNhuka (Jan 20, 2008)

The Cuong Nhu answer would be a deffenit no. You're not allowed to sparr until you're a green belt, which is the third rank, and takes a year to get. Unless you have previous training, then you're allowed right away. I know alot of traditional styles have some what simliar rules.


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## Blindside (Jan 20, 2008)

With us, once you are taught your yellow belt basics, you are permitted to spar.  Throughout our sparring, at all levels you will hear advice.  "you are dropping your hands," "you telegraphed that kick by stepping with your other leg," "use more combinations, you are retreating in a straight line, etc."  I'll admit sometimes I think it is too fast, but our students make it work.

Lamont


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## Drac (Jan 20, 2008)

Jeeze, I must have attended a real progressive dojo...We were sparring at white belt...


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## jks9199 (Jan 20, 2008)

Drac said:


> Jeeze, I must have attended a real progressive dojo...We were sparring at white belt...


So was I... and so do my students.

Like I said -- I generally can have a student ready to free spar, at least in class, in a matter of months. 

I don't throw someone in with no tools... but that doesn't mean they need everything perfect before they test it!


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 20, 2008)

I do not throw anyone into Full Contact Empty Hand Sparring without the proper tools necessary to be successful.  So it always depends on the individuals and their backgrounds.  I will start someone out pretty soon with padded stick training getting them used to contact and being aggressive.


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## Drac (Jan 20, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> So was I... and so do my students.
> 
> Like I said -- I generally can have a student ready to free spar, at least in class, in a matter of months.


 
I am glad I am not alone...We (white belts) use to spar with Sensei or his assistant..


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## jamz (Jan 20, 2008)

Thanks all, that's about what I thought.

I'm going to go ahead and assume that it's a bad idea to spar outside of the dojo though, unless you enjoy getting hurt with no feedback from a good instructor.


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## Kacey (Jan 20, 2008)

Drac said:


> Jeeze, I must have attended a real progressive dojo...We were sparring at white belt...



So did we - but the juniors always start with the seniors; white belts are _dangerous_ because they are incredibly unpredictable.  Black belts had better be able to defend themselves against white belts!  



jamz said:


> Thanks all, that's about what I thought.
> 
> I'm going to go ahead and assume that it's a bad idea to spar outside of the dojo though, unless you enjoy getting hurt with no feedback from a good instructor.



My students are not allowed to spar without supervision by me or another black belt, until black belt (that doesn't mean they don't - they just don't tell me about it!).  It's too easy to hurt your opponent or yourself without meaning to until you have a reasonable amount of experience and control; how much that is depends on the person.


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## Big Don (Jan 20, 2008)

My instructors repeat one thing at least twice everytime we spar. 





> Two things will happen if you choose to spar; You will get hit, and it will hurt.


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## CoryKS (Jan 20, 2008)

Our school gets us started sparring as soon as we have gear.  Ranks below 3rd brown must wear all gear and may not strike to the head.  3rd Brown and above can wear any pieces they wish or none at all, and can strike to the head unless sparring w/ a green or below.

God, I love sparring.


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## Danjo (Jan 21, 2008)

Just go with what your instructor tells you. Yellow belts are not all created equal, and there may be good reasons for why he's going the way he is. 

How any of these instructors on this board do it at their school is irrelevant to your situation. They know what _they're_ doing, and you have to assume that your instructor knows what he's doing also.


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## jks9199 (Jan 21, 2008)

Danjo said:


> Just go with what your instructor tells you. Yellow belts are not all created equal, and there may be good reasons for why he's going the way he is.
> 
> How any of these instructors on this board do it at their school is irrelevant to your situation. They know what _they're_ doing, and you have to assume that your instructor knows what he's doing also.


Great point.  We can't judge THIS particular yellow belt, nor do we know how this program works.  

It boils down to a simple thing: If you don't trust your instructor and his/her methods -- find someone you do trust.


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## MJS (Jan 21, 2008)

jamz said:


> I started MA a couple months ago with a bunch of other old fat people like myself. We are all yellow belts now, maybe halfway through this particular phase, probably testing for orange at the end of February sometime. We are all beginners, not experienced, etc.
> 
> Now with the stuff I've learned so far, a couple strikes, kicks and blocks, I'd really like to spar with someone, which they don't encourage in the dojo yet for us. My question is, is this typical newbie overexcitement, or is limited sparring (like 50% speed/power, appropriate sparring gear) a good idea to get used to using the stuff in a more realistic fashion?
> 
> Mainly I'd like to see if I can get good enough to block something other than a staged lunging overhand punch.


 
IMHO, I don't think that someone should necessarily have to wait until a certain rank before they begin sparring.  I do feel though, that they should have an understand of some basics though.  Of course, this is all depending on the person in question, as everyone learns at a different pace.  

I think that all new people to sparring, should be paired up with a senior student.  This does not necessarily have to be a black belt, however, the person needs to have control and have the new students best interest in mind.  In other words...don't pair the newbie up with a brown belt, if the brown belt is going to use them as a punching bag.   Instead, the senior student should be working with the new student on things such as: proper footwork, proper movement, combos, blocks, boxing skills, to name a few things.


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## KempoGuy06 (Jan 21, 2008)

Drac said:


> Jeeze, I must have attended a real progressive dojo...We were sparring at white belt...


same, only criteria before you attended sparring class was that you had to spar once (w/instructor or assistant) in regular class first, but after that you could attend sparring class whenever.

We limited on targets though, White, yellow and orange were only allowed to hit to the chest, ribs and solar plexus, purple could go to the head, blue could go to the face, blue w/green can disturb balance (thats all i know)

B


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## Empty Hands (Jan 21, 2008)

We can spar from day one if we so choose, as long as we have the gear.  Even without it, there is usually a pair of gloves or feet laying around for a newb to use.  Sparring is also a part of every test, including the first one from white to yellow.  There are also no restrictions on who to spar by rank.  The only targets that are usually off limits are the knees (and the obvious ones like the eyes), but this can be modified depending on the preferences of who is sparring.  There are also few to no limits on the attacks used, as long as you don't completely clobber someone.  Want to try out that sweep you learned in class the other day?  Give it a shot.  Just exercise control and respect your partner's wishes on what they want to do and how hard.

I feel that this is a useful way to do things.  Even if you don't know much yet, you will learn timing, range, how to move, and not to flinch.  These lessons can't really be taught by drill, or at least the kind of drills we do.


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## martialartspeon (Jan 21, 2008)

I think it all depends upon the person.  Some people can spar right away as long as they are mature enough.  I also think it is one of the best ways to learn.  I believe the time restraints put on many new students has more to do with the instructor getting to feel out the student and see what time of person they are.


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## Danjo (Jan 21, 2008)

martialartspeon said:


> I think it all depends upon the person. Some people can spar right away as long as they are mature enough. I also think it is one of the best ways to learn. I believe the time restraints put on many new students has more to do with the instructor getting to feel out the student and see what time of person they are.


 
I think it can also have to do with the fact that an instructor wants to make sure there is a solid grounding in basics, strategy and tactics before letting them out there to bang away and start creating bad habits. In many schools there is one-step, and three-step sparring (kumite) that is done before free-sparring is introduced. In Kajukenbo, we opt for pre-set counters with ad-libs to accomplish the same effect. You need to know how to move before sparring or you just get sloppy IMO.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 21, 2008)

Danjo said:


> I think it can also have to do with the fact that an instructor wants to make sure there is a solid grounding in basics, strategy and tactics before letting them out there to bang away and start creating bad habits. In many schools there is one-step, and three-step sparring (kumite) that is done before free-sparring is introduced. In Kajukenbo, we opt for pre-set counters with ad-libs to accomplish the same effect. You need to know how to move before sparring or you just get sloppy IMO.


 
Absolutely!


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## Danjo (Jan 22, 2008)

We had a kid that came in and on sparring night I was working with him having him do combos to get him used to the whole thing while I blocked and parried. After about five minutes, he said, "I'm getting tired of doing all the attacking. I want to fight." So I attacked for about three seconds at about half speed. Five seconds later, he was back to being _very_ willing to continue with the drill I had given him originally. 

I repeat: LISTEN TO YOUR INSTRUCTOR!


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## KempoGuy06 (Jan 22, 2008)

Danjo said:


> We had a kid that came in and on sparring night I was working with him having him do combos to get him used to the whole thing while I blocked and parried. After about five minutes, he said, "I'm getting tired of doing all the attacking. I want to fight." So I attacked for about three seconds at about half speed. Five seconds later, he was back to being _very_ willing to continue with the drill I had given him originally.
> 
> I repeat: LISTEN TO YOUR INSTRUCTOR!


LOL...Ive seen this happen quite a few times

B


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## jamz (Jan 22, 2008)

As far as listening to the instructor, goes, well, it's never been brought up.  As it turns out, another person in my class went to an "open" class and the instructor was happy to let her spar with a bunch of intermediate and advanced students.

Probably you are all right in that yellow vs. yellow is just going to be boring as we don't have the technique or coordination yet, but versus more skilled people it's better for us n00bs learning.


Now all I have to do is ask the instructor when she next plans to spar during an open class so I can show up.


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## Josh Oakley (Jan 29, 2008)

Depends on the student regardless of belt. We have a couple of white belts sparring, and a couple of orange belts we don't let spar yet. Depends on their control, both physically and emotionally. But even at orange, the level of contact is much less than we allow purple, or blue or green. The amount of gear depends on what we're working on. Except for cups. Cups are a constant.


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## ktaylor75 (Jan 29, 2008)

I am a yellow belt and I sparred for the first time last week.  There arent many people in the adult class, and from what I gather, for the most part, they're not to fond of sparrin,  but the sparring class is on a night that I cannot attend and I was talking to a black belt from class about it, so he offered to spar with me before one of the afternoon classes!  I loved it.  He landed many strikes...I landed one! ...lol.  I am excited and cannot wait till Thursday to do it again.  It was a great way to apply and practice blocks and using some of the basics for application rather than just against rehearsed self-defense moves.  Well, that was just this n00b's point of view.


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## swiftpete (Jan 29, 2008)

Just take care.. The reason noobs arent usually allowed to spar is it can be very easy to cause injury if you don't have control in your techniques. I've hurt people in the past when I had a control problem without meaning to but just by getting excited and hitting/locking too hard.
There are 2 new lads in my class, only young lads, one of them nearly broke the others neck the other day when left to practice a technique, purely from not realising how much force to put in to achieve the result he wanted.

As you say you're all old and fat, you're probably sensible enough to take a bit more care and will probably be knackered before you've caused any damage anyway....!  

Good luck


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