# carry your gun off duty



## KenpoTex (Oct 30, 2009)

(emphasis added)


> 29 Oct 09
> 
> Three off-duty, OIS (Officer-Involved Shootings), fatal and near-fatal, in NY, from a friend in the area:
> 
> ...


Farnam's Quips are a great source for anecdotes, tactical considerations, and mindset lessons.  The entire index can be found here:
http://www.defense-training.com/quips/quips.html


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 2, 2009)

In NYS you are a Police office 24/7 which generally translated to you carry all the time. Also they, like may LEOs, are trained to fire and the central mass of the body which generally translated into if you shoot you are going to kill the other guy not wound him. 

Not saying good, bad, yea or niegh just stating facts


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## KenpoTex (Nov 2, 2009)

Xue Sheng said:


> In NYS you are a Police office 24/7 which generally translated to you carry all the time. *Also they, like may LEOs, are trained to fire and the central mass of the body which generally translated into if you shoot you are going to kill the other guy not wound him. *
> 
> Not saying good, bad, yea or niegh just stating facts



well, that's not really a given considering that something like 85% of people shot with a handgun survive.  That said, multiple rounds to vital areas (high center chest, or head) is the best way to stop someone with a handgun.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 2, 2009)

KenpoTex said:


> well, that's not really a given considering that something like *85% of people shot with a handgun survive*. That said, multiple rounds to vital areas (high center chest, or head) is the best way to stop someone with a handgun.


 
Are you talking all people shot by handguns or just those shot by LEOs, basically who is firing the gun? I am talking specifically LEOs, and I am assuming the majority of LEOs are trained similar to those in NYS.

So allow me to say this differently and more to the point based on what I know without assumption as to how other LEOs are trained; an LEO in NYS is not trained to shoot to wound. And considering the nature of the job I really don't have a problem with that.


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## KenpoTex (Nov 3, 2009)

All I'm saying is that just hitting "center of mass" is no guarantee that the bad guy is going to be stopped.

As far as training is concerned, I don't know of any department or school that teaches their officers or students to shoot to wound.  That would just be stupid.

And, not that it's really relevant to this thread, the police generally don't really enjoy that great of a "hit rate."  I believe NYPD's is only like 30% (if that).  Just because someone wears a badge doesn't automatically make them a gunslinger.

The officers mentioned in the first post did a great job.  They were carrying their guns and they had the skill and the will to use them effectively.  That was the point of the thread as it is a lesson that we should all take to heart.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 3, 2009)

I apologize for my irrelevant posts


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## Hudson69 (Nov 7, 2009)

If you are an LEO then I think you would be foolish not to carry off-duty (within department policy of course).  Not only can something like that happen, as mentioned in the post, but any number of other things might as well.

Besides; most departments probably tell their officers, like mine does here in Colorado, that to take action is a personal decision but to "Have it and not need it is better than needing it and not having it."  You can still be a really good witness to a crime and not take any action unless there is threat to life.  The incidents mentioned above are good examples of having a gun when you need one.

I carry off-duty almost always (rare exceptions do exist) but most of my fellow officers are more "hit & miss."


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## Drac (Nov 7, 2009)

As soon as I get my retirement badge and ID you can bet your *** I will be strapped all the time..


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## FierySquidFace (Nov 8, 2009)

yeah, 'cuz that's just what we need: more guns on the streets! shoot to kill! why waste the taxpayers hard earned $ arresting and jailing the criminals? just take 'em out!

verkill:


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## KenpoTex (Nov 8, 2009)




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## Archangel M (Nov 8, 2009)

FierySquidFace said:


> yeah, 'cuz that's just what we need: more guns on the streets! shoot to kill! why waste the taxpayers hard earned $ arresting and jailing the criminals? just take 'em out!




Uhhh. When a group of guys are attacking you with bats, shooting them  IS arresting them. If they survive then they can have their day in court.


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## FierySquidFace (Nov 8, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> Uhhh. When a group of guys are attacking you with bats, shooting them IS arresting them. If they survive then they can have their day in court.


 
Wow. I should be a cop...


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## Archangel M (Nov 8, 2009)

What..do you think Cops should whip out their awesome "tactical ninja" skills and disarm bat and knife wielding attackers? If you don't want to get shot, don't attack me with a deadly weapon.


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## FierySquidFace (Nov 8, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> What..do you think Cops should whip out their awesome "tactical ninja" skills and disarm bat and knife wielding attackers? If you don't want to get shot, don't attack me with a deadly weapon.


 
Now you're mocking my art. 

Just relax "officer". Personaly, I wouldn't mind being able to shoot people for a living. You guys seem to get alot of enjoyment out it.


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## Archangel M (Nov 8, 2009)

Where do you come to that conclusion from what has been posted in THIS THREAD?

And what are you suggesting? Disarms? Shooting to wound? What? 

Or is this just a convenient excuse to do a little cop bashing?


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## MBuzzy (Nov 8, 2009)

[playnice]Craig Mills[/playnice]


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## FierySquidFace (Nov 8, 2009)

The people mentioned in this thread who attacked the LEOs got what they had coming to them IMO. However, there have been countless cases of people getting killed unnecisarily(sp) by LEOs, and you guys know that better than most people.

I grew up in a small town. 2 of the 4 years that I was in highschool there, a student was shot and killed by a policeman. Neither of  these students were attacking anyone. Is underage drinking and driving really a good reason to get shot in the head? (tangent- sorry)

I guess what I'm trying to say is that people who are in that position of authority (LEOs) have an obligation to protect themselves, and us, and sometimes deadly force is required. It just seems to me that all too often, that authority is abused, and people get killed when it wasn't neccesary.


I sincerely appologize to everyone here for being negative and disrespectful.:asian:


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## Ceicei (Nov 8, 2009)

(Edit: anecdote removed as it is not directly related to the topic)

However, this experience is not the point of the original thread anyway.  The point mentioned in the OP was those officers, who were off duty, had their guns with them.  Even though they were off duty, they were able to stop a crime in action.  

This concept is not too difficult to extrapolate to regular (non-LEO) citizens.  Each day somewhere, in America, armed citizens are also able to defend themselves as well.

- Ceicei


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## KenpoTex (Nov 9, 2009)

Ceicei said:


> (Edit: anecdote removed as it is not directly related to the topic)
> 
> However, this experience is not the point of the original thread anyway.  The point mentioned in the OP was those officers, who were off duty, had their guns with them.  Even though they were off duty, they were able to stop a crime in action.
> 
> ...



Yep.
They didn't just stop a crime...they stopped crimes in which _they_ were the intended victims.  This extrapolates perfectly to situations other citizens might face.  


Fierysquidface...Just a piece of advice, consider thinking a little before you post.


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## FierySquidFace (Nov 9, 2009)

as long as you guys promise to think before you shoot :wink2:


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## MJS (Nov 9, 2009)

Probably a good idea to take a look at this, as well as the rest of the forum rules, before this thread get too out of hand.

Anyways....As for the original article...good for the cops, they did what they had to do.  As far as abuse of powers, people that're shot when they supposedly didn't have to be...well, I'll say this....unless we know all of the details, then all we can do, at best, is armchair QB the event.  

Shot in the head for DUI??  Man, I hope that there was some other reason that they got shot, because otherwise someone will probably be going up the river.


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## Archangel M (Nov 9, 2009)

MJS said:


> Shot in the head for DUI??  Man, I hope that there was some other reason that they got shot, because otherwise someone will probably be going up the river.



Im pretty sure there probably was. I take any internet posting like that with a large grain of salt minus any evidence or references. And for every "those cops shot him for no reason" story I find I can probably find two examples of where someone simply misunderstands (or willfully ignores) the legalities of use of force.


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## FierySquidFace (Nov 9, 2009)

the reason was that he was a black kid in a redneck town that ran from the cops when their party got busted. outside of town, in the country i might add.


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## Hudson69 (Nov 14, 2009)

FierySquidFace said:


> Now you're mocking my art.
> 
> Just relax "officer". Personaly, I wouldn't mind being able to shoot people for a living. You guys seem to get alot of enjoyment out it.


 
How old are you?  The sentence structure is there but your statements make you sound either young or immature.

As an LEO I always have a sidearm with me; I would rather have it and not need it than to need it and not have it. I do not care how good your kung-fu is, 15+ rounds of 9mm can make up for a difference in skill, especially at range and/or your opponent went to the school of spray and pray.

I have been very luck, I have never had the need to draw a weapon or step into a confrontation off-duty and I live in a city of over a quarter million souls.


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## seasoned (Nov 14, 2009)

Why is it always assumed by some, that a person goes into Law Enforcement, to abuse power, beat people up, and shoot people. The criteria to become a cop is the most stringent, then any other profession, period. Walk the streets of any crime ridden city in the USA at 2am in the morning, and find out what the bad guy thinks of humanity. A cop is a cop 24/7 just like a physician, and if called upon a doctor would save and preserve life. A cops firearm is also a tool to serve the same purpose. Now back on post, off duty, carry.


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## FierySquidFace (Nov 14, 2009)

.


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## MJS (Nov 14, 2009)

Amazing how the anti cop comments still flow like water.  The OP posted cases which IMO, lethal force was justified.  What being black in a redneck town has to do with the thread, other than TROLLING, I'll never know.  Makes me laugh when I hear those comments, because ALL of us have said that there are bad cops, but some people seem to miss that little tidbit, yet thats the comment that they repeatedly make.  Amazing how some people seem to justify what the badguys do, to make the cops have to shoot or use force.  

Oh well...off to RTM some posts for trolling the LEO section.


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## MJS (Nov 14, 2009)

FierySquidFace said:


> I sincerely appologize to everyone here for being negative and disrespectful.:asian:


 
I'm...I'm...I'm just speechless at this.  Why?  Because for every time that you've said it, you go right back to doing the complete opposite.


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## FierySquidFace (Nov 14, 2009)

alright, alright, i learned my leason: don't disagree with any LEO ever, for any reason. and stay the f*** out of their forums. 
now bring on the bad rep, and derogatory comments... you guys are really doing a great job.


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## jks9199 (Nov 14, 2009)

FierySquidFace said:


> alright, alright, i learned my leason: don't disagree with any LEO ever, for any reason. and stay the f*** out of their forums.
> now bring on the bad rep, and derogatory comments... you guys are really doing a great job.


Y'know... You've been harping on ONE incident.  You haven't been willing to listen to anyone pointing out that the kid brought this on himself, and that it just might have been a tragic accident, largely fueled by the kid's series of dumbass choices beginning with running a stop sign (I'll even give him the benefit of the doubt, and say that it wasn't a blatant, blast through it at 40 without even slowing down, and was simply a "rolling stop".) which he then compounded by deciding not to stop when the cops hit the blue lights, then further compounded by trying to run the cops off the road.  More than once.

Obviously, it was the evil cops intent to blast the kid, right?  Nothing that he did factored into it at all...  They must clearly be racist, and probably woke up going "I hopes I gets to shoot me a black kid today!", right?  (If you don't realize it -- that's exactly how you're coming across on this issue.)

Look, it's pretty clear to me that this case and this issue really strikes a nerve with you.  I'm going to strongly suggest that you take advantage of that citizen's academy I mentioned elsewhere.  It would help you understand more of where the cops are coming from.  

Many officers choose to carry their guns off duty not in the hope that they get to shoot someone, but out of fear that if something happens, they'll be helpless and won't be prepared.  I refer you (again) to David Grossman's piece, On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs: 


> [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]For example, many officers carry their weapons in church. They are well concealed in ankle holsters, shoulder holsters or inside-the-belt holsters tucked into the small of their backs. Anytime you go to some form of religious service, there is a very good chance that a police officer in your congregation is carrying. You will never know if there is such an individual in your place of worship, until the wolf appears to slaughter you and your loved ones.
> 
> I was training a group of police officers in Texas, and during the break, one officer asked his friend if he carried his weapon in church. The other cop replied, &#8220;I will never be caught without my gun in church.&#8221; I asked why he felt so strongly about this, and he told me about a police officer he knew who was at a church massacre in Ft. Worth, Texas, in 1999. In that incident, a mentally deranged individual came into the church and opened fire, gunning down 14 people. He said that officer believed he could have saved every life that day if he had been carrying his gun. His own son was shot, and all he could do was throw himself on the boy&#8217;s body and wait to die. That cop looked me in the eye and said, &#8220;Do you have any idea how hard it would be to live with yourself after that?&#8221;
> 
> Some individuals would be horrified if they knew this police officer was carrying a weapon in church. They might call him paranoid and would probably scorn him. Yet these same individuals would be enraged and would call for &#8220;heads to roll&#8221; if they found out that the airbags in their cars were defective, or that the fire extinguisher and fire sprinklers in their kids&#8217; school did not work. They can accept the fact that fires and traffic accidents can happen and that there must be safeguards against them. Their only response to the wolf, though, is denial, and all too often their response to the sheepdog is scorn and disdain. But the sheepdog quietly asks himself, &#8220;Do you have any idea how hard it would be to live with yourself if your loved ones were attacked and killed, and you had to stand there helplessly because you were unprepared for that day?&#8221;[/FONT]


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## FierySquidFace (Nov 14, 2009)

.


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## The Last Legionary (Nov 14, 2009)

FierySquidFace said:


> you guys really go through some mental gymnastics to get to these conclusions, don't you? do you realize you're doing that, or does it just happen naturally for you?




Do you do anything besides troll?


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## MJS (Nov 14, 2009)

FierySquidFace said:


> alright, alright, i learned my leason: don't disagree with any LEO ever, for any reason. and stay the f*** out of their forums.
> now bring on the bad rep, and derogatory comments... you guys are really doing a great job.


 
I'm assuming that you can read. If so, perhaps you should read the following:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=61442

Maybe you should also read these, which you agreed to when you joined this forum, specifically the following:

4.1, 4.5, 4.9



FierySquidFace said:


> .


 


FierySquidFace said:


> .


 
Oh, nothing useful to post?  See, anyone is welcome to post anywhere, providing they stick to the rules that are set in place.  If you dont like the rules, you're free to leave.  If you choose to stay, you may want to try and follow them.   I agree with JKS...you harp and harp and harp on 1 or 2 things, never seeing anything outside of that.  I've personally said quite a few times, that we already know and admit there are bad cops.  Seems like you keep harping on that, in addition to never seeing any fault in what the scumbags of the world, do to the cops, to make them shoot or use force.  Like I've said, 99.9% of the people who have run ins with the cops, could avoid the headache if they just did what was asked, and didn't act like a jerk.  Its really that simple.

Seems to me that you've had some bad run ins with the cops, hold a grudge, and think they're all bad.  News flash squid...for every bad cop story you can pull out of your head, I can pull out a good cop story.  They're not all evil ya know. 

So, if you can open your eyes and see both sides, well, fine, but if not, yes, your trolling and childish antics will most likely find you in trouble.


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## FierySquidFace (Nov 14, 2009)

"Do you do anything besides troll? "


not when i keep getting such possitive feedback from my brothers in uniform. i feel like we're really bonding here? don't u?
the longer i'm attacked  in these threads, the more i'm compelled to respond. how about we all just let it go now? can we all handle that?


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## MJS (Nov 14, 2009)

FierySquidFace said:


> .


 
Nice edit there dude.  Of course, the comment that you had there was a nice personal shot.


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## MJS (Nov 14, 2009)

FierySquidFace said:


> not when i keep getting such possitive feedback from my brothers in uniform. i feel like we're really bonding here? don't u?


 
Dude, can you read? We've been trying to show you both sides of the situation, but YOU refuse to see it. So, you going to post anything useful here, or keep on trolling? Choice is yours, but IMO, you're probably on the fast track to getting banned.

Edit:

Looks like you tossed this in last min. ""Do you do anything besides troll? "

So, you're admitting that you're trolling then??


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## The Last Legionary (Nov 14, 2009)

FierySquidFace said:


> "Do you do anything besides troll? "
> 
> 
> not when i keep getting such possitive feedback from my brothers in uniform. i feel like we're really bonding here? don't u?
> the longer i'm attacked  in these threads, the more i'm compelled to respond. how about we all just let it go now? can we all handle that?


Obviously you're incapable of following the rules Troll.  I predict a short lifespan for you here.


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## The Last Legionary (Nov 14, 2009)

MJS said:


> Dude, can you read? We've been trying to show you both sides of the situation, but YOU refuse to see it. So, you going to post anything useful here, or keep on trolling? Choice is yours, but IMO, you're probably on the fast track to getting banned.
> 
> Edit:
> 
> ...


The blue was mine. Trollboy there was quoting me.


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## The Last Legionary (Nov 14, 2009)

Hey SquidTroll!   Read section 4.1 General Posting Guidelines again. You seem to have missed this on your pre-registration pass. You did read it before you agreed to it right?


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## MJS (Nov 14, 2009)

The Last Legionary said:


> The blue was mine. Trollboy there was quoting me.


 
Yup, I know.  It wasn't there, just like the other parts that he just added in, when I initially quoted the post.


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## FierySquidFace (Nov 14, 2009)

i knew you guys couldn't let it go. allow me to be the mature one then and just drop it altogether. i won't even read the thread anymore, so feel free to belittle me and make biased closed minded remarks behind my back. 

love,
A


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## MJS (Nov 14, 2009)

FierySquidFace said:


> "Do you do anything besides troll? "
> 
> 
> not when i keep getting such possitive feedback from my brothers in uniform. i feel like we're really bonding here? don't u?
> the longer i'm attacked in these threads, the more i'm compelled to respond. how about we all just let it go now? can we all handle that?


 
But its ok for you to attack the cops here, lumping them all together, with the nightmares that you've supposedly had?  

Many of us have pointed out what the badguys do, ie: assaulting cops, running from them, fighting with them..the list goes on and on and on, but you seem to be ok with that.  But, let the cop shoot back...when he's being shot at, and suddenly he's an evil person.  Umm...yeah...alrighty then.


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## KenpoTex (Nov 14, 2009)

FierySquidFace said:


> alright, alright, i learned my leason: don't disagree with any LEO ever, for any reason. and stay the f*** out of their forums.
> now bring on the bad rep, and derogatory comments... you guys are really doing a great job.


 
Okay dude...

When were you told not to disagree ever? When were you told to stay out of this forum? 

The negative reception you have received is not because you disagreed with the other posters. If you had presented a well reasoned point of view, you would not be getting called on the carpet. That however is not the case. You started off by posting comments of an inflamatory nature about incidents that had absolutely nothing to do with the topic of the thread. Then when pressed for answers you failed to even consider alternate points of view. Instead you have made it abundantly clear that you would rather stick to your idiotic line of "cops are bad because they shoot people for running stopsigns."

I've done my best to give you the benefit of the doubt and to be nice (which is not something I normally expend a lot of effort on). On two separate occasions, I even tried to give you some advice that would have made your interaction here more pleasant. Obviously it was a waste of my time. Posts like the one I quoted above show that you really just don't know how to conduct yourself in a mature discussion. Is it because you lack the critical thinking and reading comprehension skills to understand the points others are trying to make? Or is it just that you're an immature little brat who gets butt-hurt any time someone doesn't agree with you or calls you to account for something you've said?


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## MJS (Nov 14, 2009)

FierySquidFace said:


> i knew you guys couldn't let it go. allow me to be the mature one then and just drop it altogether. i won't even read the thread anymore, so feel free to belittle me and make biased closed minded remarks behind my back.
> 
> love,
> A


 
LMAO...classic strawman!


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 14, 2009)

*Folks, lets get back on the original topic please.  Thank you.

The off topic concerns are being discussed by the staff.*


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## MJS (Nov 14, 2009)

Getting back to the OP sounds like a great idea to me.  IMO, I think its good to carry if you're off duty.  Many of the Troopers in this state, carry off duty, mainly in part, because technically, they're still 'on duty' even when they're off.  Part of the package, ie: having use of their car 24/7, even for personal use, etc.

For the reasons already listed in the OP, this is why I think its good to carry.  I'd also go so far as to say that due to the fact that anytime they put the uniform on, they're a potential target.  I'd rather be safe than sorry.


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## KenpoTex (Nov 15, 2009)

I can't fathom the idea of a cop not carrying off duty. What happens when you are at the grocery store and you suddenly run into the guy that you arrested a while back who suddenly decides he's going to get some payback from the guy who (from his perspective) ruined his life.

The larger point to the initial post was that if you (anyone...cop, ccw-holder...anyone) can carry a gun, you should be doing it. All the officers in the article were off duty. The bad guys probably didn't know they were cops when they targeted them. It could just as easily have been anyone...so carry your ****ing gun!


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## MJS (Nov 15, 2009)

KenpoTex said:


> I can't fathom the idea of a cop not carrying off duty. What happens when you are at the grocery store and you suddenly run into the guy that you arrested a while back who suddenly decides he's going to get some payback from the guy who (from his perspective) ruined his life.


 
This was my line of thinking as well.  



> The larger point to the initial post was that if you (anyone...cop, ccw-holder...anyone) can carry a gun, you should be doing it. All the officers in the article were off duty. The bad guys probably didn't know they were cops when they targeted them. It could just as easily have been anyone...so carry your ****ing gun!


 
Agreed!


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## jks9199 (Nov 15, 2009)

KenpoTex said:


> I can't fathom the idea of a cop not carrying off duty. What happens when you are at the grocery store and you suddenly run into the guy that you arrested a while back who suddenly decides he's going to get some payback from the guy who (from his perspective) ruined his life.
> 
> The larger point to the initial post was that if you (anyone...cop, ccw-holder...anyone) can carry a gun, you should be doing it. All the officers in the article were off duty. The bad guys probably didn't know they were cops when they targeted them. It could just as easily have been anyone...so carry your ****ing gun!


There are times not to carry...  Like if you're going to be drinking.  

But it's rare when I'm not carrying.  And, yes, I do carry in church, and I've had to warn the doctor before I took my shirt off.  (It certainly wasn't to advise him of my massively chiseled abs!)


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## Archangel M (Nov 15, 2009)

I carry more often than not, but sometimes; especially during the summer, when Im wearing shorts and a T, the hassle of having to conceal it or the necessity of wearing an "off duty duty belt" with all the "I a cop so don't freak out" stuff on it makes it not worth the hassle.

Never take it drinking.


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## VegasM4 (Nov 22, 2009)

I'm a Cop and I ALWAYS carry off duty.Whether I'm in a casino, shopping at the mall,at church,camping in the mountains, or even working out in my garage gym...I am armed.We lost a Police Officer from my agency this past week (who was also a friend).He was killed off duty in his own GARAGE when he was attacked by three suspects.He was able to shoot and wound one of them.All three are in custody now.Be safe.

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2009/nov/20/police-3-arrested-officers-death-have-gang-ties/


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## Archangel M (Nov 22, 2009)

VegasM4 said:


> I'm a Cop and I ALWAYS carry off duty.Whether I'm in a casino, shopping at the mall,at church,camping in the mountains, or even working out in my garage gym...I am armed.We lost a Police Officer from my agency this past week (who was also a friend).He was killed off duty in his own GARAGE when he was attacked by three suspects.He was able to shoot and wound one of them.All three are in custody now.Be safe.
> 
> http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2009/nov/20/police-3-arrested-officers-death-have-gang-ties/



These dirtbags deserve the needle.


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## Drac (Nov 22, 2009)

Drac said:


> As soon as I get my retirement badge and ID you can bet your *** I will be strapped all the time..


 
Got my retirement ID and badge the other day...Now I gotta trade in my Sig 626 on something a little easier to conceal...


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