# Sai Katas?



## Bob Hubbard (Aug 27, 2001)

I'm looking for some simple (beginner type) Sai katas. If anyone can point me in a direction I'd greatly apreciate the info.

Thanks!


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Sep 3, 2001)

Thank you.  I'll check into those asap.  The B&N near me doesn't have that great of a martial arts section unless your looking for karate, kung fu or tai chi.  Other arts or the more focused titles are special order only.  The Borders is about the same (lots of yoga books though)  

I've been doing some minor work outs doing Sinwallis with Sais.  Its different.  (Real real loud) heh.  My only question at this point is where can I find some good quality sai's?  I paid about $65 a pair for these and after 15 minutes they are beaten to hell.  Were supposed to be steel, but I think they are really aluminum or chrome. 

Danke!


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Sep 3, 2001)

I've found that both waldenbooks and B daltons are lacking a bit in both the PC and the MA area.  I'm planning a trip to Erie PA in the next few weeks, the Borders there was decent, will have to check out their MA section.

Never thought about used shops (most of the ones by me seem to be drowning in old romance and cowboy novels.)   Will have to take another look.

Looks like im gonna have to do a real hunt for quality Sais.  If I find em, I'll post the source.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Sep 7, 2001)

Danke.  I'll check it out next trip to borders.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Sep 14, 2001)

Kool.     thanks for the info.  I'll look into it ASAP.  

Hmm....tonfa.....


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Oct 3, 2001)

Authentic good.     Me and a friend beat the snot outta 2 pair a few weeks ago doing sinwallis with em.  Man, my ears are still ringing.  They cheeeeep things.  heh

To everyone who emailed me info, I'm a tad behind on replying... my eyes are still 'off' since I got the lasik done, and its been an 'not too good' week.  I'll get respond shortly.

Thanks!!


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Oct 20, 2001)

Umm...whats Pinan Nidan?


----------



## Cebu West (Sep 30, 2001)

oddessy martial arts supply sells sai that are handmade and are stainless steel.  they are $200 but you get what you pay for.  here is the site.  they are listed under handmade weapons

http://www.oddessy.com/


----------



## Cebu West (Oct 1, 2001)

Your points are well taken and true. At one time oddessy carried sai designed by Taika Oyata. They were long and the tines were straight and sharp and the handle had a cone shaped butt. They were perfectly balanced and a true fighting sai. I have used them before and they are the real deal. They sold for $295. I have sent and email off to oddessy to see if they are still available. I'll keep you posted when they get back to me.


----------



## Cebu West (Oct 2, 2001)

just got an email from oddessy saying that the Oyata Sai are no longer available.

Sorry
Cebu


----------



## Samurai (Sep 14, 2001)

The book by Patrick McCarthy is really good.  There is a Sai kata in the book but a lot of the book is historical information.  You guys should really consider looking at www.half.com for some books.  I recently purchased Dan Inosanto's book "Filipino Martial Arts" for $6.50.  I have seen this book on Ebay for $65 or more.

As a general rule, you can take any hand form and run it with the sais.  Some of the forms lend themselves to this application quite nicely.

Thanks,
Jeremy Bays


----------



## arnisador (Oct 20, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Rob_Broad _
> *Pinan Nidan translates easily into a Sai Kata, just like Pinan Shodan translate greatly into a kama kata. *



I recall learning gojushiho ("fifty-four steps") as both an open-hand form and as a sai form and feeling simlarly.

With respect to books, there is the recent Saijutsu: Traditional Okinawan Weapon Art by Katsumi Murakami (Charles E Tuttle Co., 2000). I have seen it at our local bookstore within the past few weeks and it's at www.amazon.com as well.


----------



## arnisador (Oct 20, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *Umm...whats Pinan Nidan? *



The second of the five Pinan (or Heian) series of basic katas that are common to many styles of Japanese karate and other arts (e.g. the first several Tae Kwon Do forms are based on them, I believe). They were created in Okinawa as a simplified introduction to karate for schoolchildren then incorporated into Shotokan.

Pinan Nidan is taught first by some schools, before Pinan Shodan (the first one), because it's considered easier.

You've seen them before. Look right, step out into a forward stance, down block, step forward,reverse punch, turn back forward...aspects of them made their way into the Modern Arnis anyos as well. You would almost certainly recognize them.

See also:
http://www.ryu.com/CyberDojo/katalist.html


----------



## arnisador (Mar 20, 2002)

Welcome Mr. Garrick! Please tell us a bit more about your martial arts experience in this thread and please do post something in the karate forum about the systems you're studying.


----------



## jpein (Aug 29, 2001)

Black and Blue video productions had several if I remember correctly. You might give them a try.

www.blacknbluevideo.com


----------



## Cthulhu (Sep 1, 2001)

I have a book called "Nunchaku and Sai: Ancient Okinawan Martial Arts" written by Ryusho Sakagami.  It was originally published in 1974.  I have a tenth printing published in 1984 that I picked up at a used bookstore several years ago.  It's ISBN number is 0-87040-333-8

Three-fourths of the book is devoted to nunchaku, but it does cover basic gripping and flipping of the sai, and provides a basic kata, which the author calls the 'Tawada sai basic kata'.  It doesn't look terribly difficult, provided you are familiar with basic karate stances (back stance, forward stance, etc.)

Check your local Barnes & Noble.  I think you might be surprised by what you find.  My local B&N has the ubiquitous Fumio Demura book, as well as one other sai book (whose title escape's me).  Also, there are a couple of fairly new books by Patrick McCarthy (sp?) on Okinawan karate, and at least one of them has kobudo kata, including the sai, I think.

Hope this helps.

Cthulhu


----------



## Cthulhu (Sep 3, 2001)

Yes, sai are traditionaly made of one piece of steel forged to the familiar pronged shape.  The sai I have (and most people, for that matter), is made of two pieces of metal intertwined and then plated with chrome...usually the metal is aluminum or some crappy steel.

I've searched for 'real' sai, and have had no luck lately.  I know I found some on the 'Net about 6 years ago, but I can't find that site now.  I'll just use my sai for forms practice and not worry about combat application with them.  

Too bad about your B&N.  I've had good luck with Borders as well, but that was when I lived in Tampa.  There isn't one nearby in this part of FL.  We had a store called Books-a-million that had a somewhat decent MA section, but they've closed down for now.  Supposedly opening up again soon.  I still maintain that I have a better MA library than most bookstores.  Most of my better finds have been in used bookstores in the Tampa area.  You may want to check out your local used bookstores. You really never know what you'll find.  If you find one that seems to have a fairly good selection, get in good with the owner.  I did that when I was in Tampa and the owner would always show me the latest MA stuff he'd gotten in whenever I visited his shop.  Didn't even have to hunt the shelves...he'd have 'em ready for me to look through.

Good luck!

Cthulhu

PS From what I've heard, B&N owns Waldenbooks and Border's own B. Dalton's...may want to check those stores out as well.  Tampa had a standalone Waldenbooks that had a few good titles.


----------



## Cthulhu (Sep 3, 2001)

Good luck in your search.  I may have been lucky with the used bookstores, since I was in a pretty decently sized city at the time (Tampa/St. Petersburg).  I have yet to check the used bookstores around here, but I'm itching to do so now.

Please let us know if you find a source for 'authentic' sai.  I'm sure they'll cost a pretty penny.

Cthulhu


----------



## Cthulhu (Sep 7, 2001)

Okay, Kaith, try this:

Ancient Okinawan Martial Arts (volume 1)
by Patrick McCarthy
ISBN 0-8048-2093-7

The book has pics and descriptions of a couple of bo kata and at least one sai kata.

Cthulhu


----------



## Cthulhu (Sep 12, 2001)

Hey, Kaith...

That "Nunchaku and Sai: Ancient Okinawan Martial Arts" book I mentioned several posts back is up on eBay at:

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1464129145 

I hope that link works.

Anyway, last time I looked, it was under $3.

Cthulhu


----------



## Cthulhu (Sep 14, 2001)

That's good to know, Samurai, thanks for the heads up.

I agree about the forms.  In fact, one of the kata we have to know for Okinawa-te is simply a previously learned kata, but with sai.  I've also tried using sai with some of our short forms, with good success.  I want to get a pair of tonfa for the same purpose.

Cthulhu


----------



## Cthulhu (Sep 30, 2001)

Thanks for that oddessy.com link.  Unfortunately, I ran into some problems with it.  Namely:

The site would only open in IE.  Netscape 4.x and the latest Mozilla release refused to display the site.  I hate IE.  HATE it.
The picture for the handmade sai is very small and it's very hard, in my case impossible, to see the difference between the handmade and 'standard' sai.
The sai only come in one size, from what I could tell.  This is particularly bad, as sai are not 'one size fits all'.
[/list=1] 

For $200, they should offer different sizes and have a much better picture of their product on their site.

Usually, the correct length of the sai should be long enough so that the tip extends a couple of inches past your elbow when held in a reverse grip.  Handgrip lengths should be of corresponding size...that is to say, the longer the sai, the longer the handle, shorter the sai, shorter the handle.

If I am incorrect in any of my above points, please feel free to correct me.  However, thanks for the link, all the same, since it is the only place I've seen so far that claims to sell 'proper' sai.

Cthulhu


----------



## Cthulhu (Oct 1, 2001)

Thanks, Cebu.  The networking that occurs on this forum is great.

I think Kaith is also interested in 'authentic' sai.  Unfortunately, there seems to be precious few resources available via the Internet.

The more I think about it, the more irked I am that their sai are only available in one length.  I ain't a tall fella, so their 20" sai may just be too long for me, which could cause problems when chambering the sai from a reverse grip.

On the other hand, any freakishly tall people using the sai may find that length too short, causing their elbows to get whacked when performing blocks with a reverse grip.  

Also, I've seen sources saying that sai were carried in sets of three, not pairs.  In one sai kata, two sai are eventually thrown, and the third sai that was held in reserve comes into play at the end of the form.  The sai were sharpened to a fine point and usually thrown at the feet, effectively pinning your opponent in place.

Cthulhu


----------



## Cthulhu (Oct 2, 2001)

Found a site selling handmade sai, as well as other traditional Okinawan weapons:

http://www.okiadventures.com/html/weapons.html 

Cthulhu


----------



## Cthulhu (Oct 3, 2001)

The site I linked in my last post require hand and arm measurements for their sai, to custom fit them to the buyer.

This other site:

http://www.weaponsconnection.com/page1.htm 

Offers several versions frmo about $240-$360USD.

Cthulhu


----------



## Cthulhu (Oct 3, 2001)

I know what you mean.  I would only consider doing sinawalli with my sai against some sort of stick.  Of course, the sticks would then get battered.  Too bad I don't have $2-300USD to spare on a pair of decent sai.  At least I know where I can get them.

Cthulhu


----------



## Cthulhu (Oct 20, 2001)

Heh...

Which Pinan Nidan and Shodan?    Basically, are you talking about the Pinans before or after Funakoshi changed the order of the first two?

I guess the easiest way to distinguish the two would be the one with or without a kick?  

And of course, to further confuse things, when Ohtsuke (sp?) left Funakoshi to found Wado Ryu, he put the Pinans back into the correct order.

Thoroughly confused myself, now. :boing1: 

Cthulhu


----------



## Cthulhu (Oct 21, 2001)

Thanks for that bit of info, arnisador.  The TKD I train with does the Pinan forms (with very slight variations), but the other (younger) TKD guys in the class don't do the Pinans.  I guess part of it depends on what organization  you belong to...the guy I train with could be considered 'old school' 

He also does Bassai and Chinto (which Funakoshi renamed to Gankaku, I think), as well as the Tekki kata.  Plus, he does some other regular TKD kata like Koryo.

Cthulhu


----------



## Rob_Broad (Oct 20, 2001)

Pinan Nidan translates easily into a Sai Kata, just like Pinan Shodan translate greatly into a kama kata.


----------



## Rob_Broad (Oct 20, 2001)

Do the variation of before the changes.  Any simple four coner blocking pattern is also good to help you get some basic sai work.


----------



## Rob_Broad (Oct 21, 2001)

Here is a beginner Sai Kata I teach.

*Nukite* 

Opening stance - Sai in each hand legs shoulder width apart

 1.  Left foot steps back to 7:30
 2.  Pivot counter-clockwise to face 9:00 as left sai upward blocks
 3.  Right foot steps forward to 9:00 as you punch with butt end of right sai.
 4.  Right foot steps back into horse stance, left hand low blocks with sai
 5.  Left foot shifts towards 3:00 as you pivot clockwise to face 3:00 as you right upward block with right sai
 6.  Left foot steps forward to 3:00 as left hand punches with butt end of left sai
 7.  Left foot steps back into horse stance, right low block with sai
 8.  Left foot steps forward to 12:00 as left sai outward flip blocks
 9.  Right foot steps forward to 12:00 as right sai outward flip blocks
10.  Left front kick into a forward leaning stance
11.  Left elbow up to 1:30 -- this drags the tyne and then the point up the opponents body
12.  Left low block
13.  Right punch with butt end of sai
14.  Right foot steps over to left foot as right sai swings out to strike at 6:00
15.  Left foot steps forward to 6:00
16.  Right front kick to 6:00
17.  Right elbow up to 4:30 -- this drag the tyne and then the point up the opponents body
18.  Right low block
19.  Left punch with butt end of sai
20.  Left foot steps over to right foot as left sai swings out to strike at 12:00
21.  Left foot steps back counter clockwise to 7:30 into a right forward leaning stance
22.  Left foot steps up even with right foot shoulder width apart


----------



## Rob_Broad (Oct 21, 2001)

Hope that little sai kata helps those looking fora beginner level kata.  If you make it through that one let me know I have a couple others.


----------



## Darryl Garrick (Mar 20, 2002)

Hi,

My name is Darryl, and I'm new to this forum :asian: 

As a proud member of the IOKA in the UK, I can point out that there is a video by Grandmaster Mikio Nishiuchi that includes Sai Kata.

Hope this helps


----------

