# Violence In The FMAs



## MJS

I'm starting this thread, in response to some statements, comments, etc, that were said in the Modern Arnis section, regarding the title of an upcoming, non IMAF event. Some feel that the title of this upcoming seminar, gives the art of Modern Arnis, a bad name. I, as well as Brian Johns, commented that there are many other FMAs that are equally violent. It was said that it was off topic and un-necessary, I figured I'd start a new thread, to continue the discussion. Notice that I placed it in the FMA General section, so there shouldn't be any confusion. In other words, any FMA can be discussed here. 

So, here we go:

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So, whats up with all the aggression? I mean, a knife against an unarmed opponent who's simply punching you. Sounds a bit overkill. I wonder if the folks that're teaching this, are giving any thought to the legal aspect. 

Of course, I do have alot of respect for these teachers, but I certainly don't agree with the line of thinking here. Perhaps some of the students of these arts can clarify for us.


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## MJS

FWIW, there is some offensive knife work in Modern Arnis, however, from what I hear, the Prof. has only shown certain people and has told them that this is not the path that he wants his art to go, thus alot of the more defensive stuff.  However, as I said, anyone with some years of quality time in, can easily see the offensive stuff, yet again, its not billed as offensive knife work.


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## MJS

Perhaps I also should've included the following in my OP:  Are the FMAs, as a whole, overly violent?  Should we be toning things down so they're more suited for todays world, vs. the PI?


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## Rich Parsons

MJS said:


> Perhaps I also should've included the following in my OP:  Are the FMAs, as a whole, overly violent?  Should we be toning things down so they're more suited for todays world, vs. the PI?



Yes.
No.
Maybe.

Yes, as it is not kid and family friendly. You do what you train. If you train to cut vital areas, you will cut vital areas and could have legal action of your response is not the proper level of response. 

No, as in self defense you want everything on the table. 

Maybe, as in all things moderation. Leave the more aggressive and dangerous attacks until later in the list of techinqiues learned. So you know the student and trust them. Also one could temper the instruction to fit their audience. 

I taught at a seminar and was asked to teach some stick and knife. There were three people attending below 16. So I asked their parents if they minded what I was going to show. I did it privately, and one on with the parents. The also trained. Some started after their child others before or same time. I told them in my off time I would make sure their child would get something from me if they did not want their child to see or learn the technique. I demostrated it so they would understand. It was using the knife on the half beat for thrusting and insertions. All said yes. But I gave them an option to opt out, and still feel like they got something from me as well as the other instructors. 

I like it. It fits me. It does not fit everyone. As with all things, if it is too far outside of your comfort zone we do not do it.


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## Xue Sheng

Unless you are calling it something like the Blood, Guts and Gore, Murder and Mayhem Modern Arnis Seminar or how to kill a guy with Modern Arnis I don't see a problem. Of what I have seen of FMA I can say I like it. I do not think I would enjoy a sayoc class but that does not mean I think they should change it to make me happy. It means I likely will not take a sayoc class. But if I ever were to consider Sayoc I do not think I would go to a school that was labeled to minimize the violence. So a show of hands, how many would go the Happy Fluffy Bunny School of Sayoc

Not a comment about FMA but more to the problem some people have with thinking systems made for self-defense and fighting as being violent.

I was at short qinna seminar years ago given by Yang Jwing Ming and he was demonstrating various qinna locks. Dr. Yang was talking about the history of qinna and had a guy locked and basically on in a wrist lock and on his knees when a woman asked &#8220;what would they do you do after they locked him?&#8221; Dr. Yang responded &#8220;kill him&#8221;. 

The woman was completely shocked and was very upset and began to argue with Dr. Yang. His response was you have to remember QInna was made for war and if you locked him and then let him go he would then kill you. She was still upset that he had implied that there was such violence in martial arts. Frankly I do not thing Dr. Yang could understand why she was so upset since martial arts can be incredibly violent in application. And if you know anything about qinna which has as part of it tendon breaking and muscle tearing then you know how violent it can be.

Personally I think the denial of or the ignoring of the violent side of Martial Arts that I see all over the place today is as wrong as the glorification of it


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## Blindside

There is a section in my curriculum that is called "knife versus unarmed" and it all about clearing away the common defenses against knife.  "Oh look, he does an upward block, shift back, drop your weight, destroy the structure of the guard, pull it down, and enter on the centerline."  "Oh look, the guy has training and is trying to double tap the knife, good for him, trap over with the left arm, pulling both arms down and enter to the throat."

The intention isn't to make assassins it is to make students aware of all the possible ways the bad guy can break their defensive structure.  We are training against the worst case scenario, a skilled knife attack with the caveat the we actually were lucky enough to figure out there was a knife involved in time.  You can't defend against that what you don't understand.

In addition, I can think of a number of lethal force situations where weapon use may be appropriate, even against unarmed opponents, size disparity, group attack, etc.  We do unarmed versus knife sparring as part of our curriculum as well as multiple unarmed attackers versus a weapon holder, it is a logical extension of the curriculum.  

Is it violent?  Yes.  It is either a martial art or fighting art depending on whom you ask.


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## billc

Sooo...you walk into your apartment or house and someone is there and tries to kill you with a knife.  You manage to draw your own or you get one from the kitchen.  As you struggle, he drops his knife but continues to press the attack. Do you...

a)  drop your knife and continue the fight empty handed
b)  offer to let him get a knife out of the kitchen while you wait
c)  give him your knife so you can try your empty hand technique against a knife wielding attacker
d)  surrender because to continue fighting against an unarmed man would be unfair

Hmmm...do any of those options sound likely?

I understand the predicament with an attack with an armed attacker.  The question will be between what is legal and what is survival and sometimes the two are not the same.  It is up to you, in the middle of that chaos to make that decision.  No one else will ever be able to do that for you, good luck.


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## MJS

billcihak said:


> Sooo...you walk into your apartment or house and someone is there and tries to kill you with a knife. You manage to draw your own or you get one from the kitchen. As you struggle, he drops his knife but continues to press the attack. Do you...
> 
> a) drop your knife and continue the fight empty handed
> b) offer to let him get a knife out of the kitchen while you wait
> c) give him your knife so you can try your empty hand technique against a knife wielding attacker
> d) surrender because to continue fighting against an unarmed man would be unfair
> 
> Hmmm...do any of those options sound likely?
> 
> I understand the predicament with an attack with an armed attacker. The question will be between what is legal and what is survival and sometimes the two are not the same. It is up to you, in the middle of that chaos to make that decision. No one else will ever be able to do that for you, good luck.



This thread is a spill over from this one.
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?102794-WAM-Violent-Tapi-Tapi-What-gives

Since it seems that some felt that the use of "Whoop ***" in the non IMAF seminar was wrong, I started this thread, simply to point out that alot of what we see in other FMAs is just as bad. As for the scenario you list...well, ok, not sure where this came from, but ok. Sure that could be justifiable, however, the use of the blade against an unarmed opponent...well, if you dont see something wrong with that, I dont know what to tell ya.  See, thats my point of this thread. In that other thread, someone said the following:

"I personally would be concerned marketing these seminar titles especially in the event that some did Whoop someone's *** and it wasn't in self-defense."

Well, the same could be said of the clips I posted above.  Imagine the fun the lawyers would have, were someone to actually slice and dice someone to pieces, and it wasn't justified in a SD situation.


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## MJS

Xue Sheng said:


> Unless you are calling it something like the Blood, Guts and Gore, Murder and Mayhem Modern Arnis Seminar or how to kill a guy with Modern Arnis I don't see a problem. Of what I have seen of FMA I can say I like it. I do not think I would enjoy a sayoc class but that does not mean I think they should change it to make me happy. It means I likely will not take a sayoc class. But if I ever were to consider Sayoc I do not think I would go to a school that was labeled to minimize the violence. So a show of hands, how many would go the Happy Fluffy Bunny School of Sayoc
> 
> Not a comment about FMA but more to the problem some people have with thinking systems made for self-defense and fighting as being violent.
> 
> I was at short qinna seminar years ago given by Yang Jwing Ming and he was demonstrating various qinna locks. Dr. Yang was talking about the history of qinna and had a guy locked and basically on in a wrist lock and on his knees when a woman asked &#8220;what would they do you do after they locked him?&#8221; Dr. Yang responded &#8220;kill him&#8221;.
> 
> The woman was completely shocked and was very upset and began to argue with Dr. Yang. His response was you have to remember QInna was made for war and if you locked him and then let him go he would then kill you. She was still upset that he had implied that there was such violence in martial arts. Frankly I do not thing Dr. Yang could understand why she was so upset since martial arts can be incredibly violent in application. And if you know anything about qinna which has as part of it tendon breaking and muscle tearing then you know how violent it can be.
> 
> Personally I think the denial of or the ignoring of the violent side of Martial Arts that I see all over the place today is as wrong as the glorification of it



Just to clarify...I've been doing the FMAs for quite a long time.  I enjoy them very much.  Anytime someone talks about weapon defense, I'm usually the one who mentions that the FMAs are, IMO, head and shoulders above any other art, when it comes to weapon use and defense.  I feel that they're a great SD tool, and yes, just like any other art, there is a violent side to them.   As I said, in that other thread, some felt that Modern Arnis was suddenly taking a violent turn, due to the title of a seminar.  My point was simply to show that there are just as many whoop ***, slice and dice clips out there, so its not just limited to Modern Arnis.


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## billc

It just seems that when you, the general you not anyone specific, talk about knife vs. an unarmed attacker that it is automatically positioned as you have a knife, he doesn't and so you draw and proceed to use your knife.  That would be shaky ground.  There is a realistic chance that you may be confronted with a guy with a knife, or screw driver, who tries to stab you, you scuffle and the knife comes free.  You both try to regain the knife and then what?  The guy already tried to stab you, and you can't really just stab someone " a little," or to intimidate.  If someone is trying to stab you, you are probably on pretty good ground that he is trying to kill you.  So, you end up with the knife as you continue to struggle with your potential murderer.  Do you throw the knife out of reach?  Do you just try to keep him from getting control of it without deploying it against him?  As he tries to grab the knife or control it to try to stab you again, then your knife clearing techiques would happen where you keep him from taking the knife away from you.  There are situations where you may have a knife against an unarmed attacker that don't necessarily include you drawing on an unarmed guy and killing him because you have the knife and have some training with it.

Also keep in mind that just because he dropped the knife that doesn't mean he isn't still going to stab you if he regains control of it.  His original intent was to kill you, wether he pre-meditated the action, or you surprised him in the middle of robbing your house.  If he is still fighting, he can still end your life.

I get what you are trying to say out there.  It should be noted that iaido, and kenjutsu are arts that involve 3' long fillet knives used on other human beings.  They just dress up a little more and make their mayhem a little more formal.  The guys in the below videos are also training to inflict grievous wounds on another human being as well.

​




​

*&#36948;&#20154;&#12398;&#25216;&#65281;&#22825;&#30495;&#27491;&#20253;&#39321;&#21462;*




I have a police officer buddy who foot pursued a guy into a house.  The guy went to the fireplace and grabbed a poker.  My friend drew his pistol and ordered the guy to put the poker down.  The guy threw the poker on the ground and charged my friend, empty handed.  My friend had just barely time to holster before he engaged the guy empty handed.  Things happen.


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## Guro Harold

MJS said:


> This thread is a spill over from this one.
> http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?102794-WAM-Violent-Tapi-Tapi-What-gives
> 
> Since it seems that some felt that the use of "Whoop ***" in the non IMAF seminar was wrong


Please show anywhere in the other thread that someone said that this was "wrong". Just because someone questions something or disagrees with a utilization and clearly states a contrary opinion doesn't mean that they said that someone is "wrong".


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## MJS

Guro Harold said:


> Please show anywhere in the other thread that someone said that this was "wrong". Just because someone questions something or disagrees with a utilization and clearly states a contrary opinion doesn't mean that they said that someone is "wrong".



Really?  That should be fairly easy to do.  Just look at the OP in that thread.  So Sir, do you have anything to say regarding this thread, as this post is off topic.  You're more than welcome to post in this thread, but please, stick to the facts.


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## Xue Sheng

MJS said:


> Just to clarify...I've been doing the FMAs for quite a long time.  I enjoy them very much.  Anytime someone talks about weapon defense, I'm usually the one who mentions that the FMAs are, IMO, head and shoulders above any other art, when it comes to weapon use and defense.  I feel that they're a great SD tool, and yes, just like any other art, there is a violent side to them.   As I said, in that other thread, some felt that Modern Arnis was suddenly taking a violent turn, due to the title of a seminar.  My point was simply to show that there are just as many whoop ***, slice and dice clips out there, so its not just limited to Modern Arnis.



When is the last time you heard violence and Taiji in the same sentence 

From Yang Style 13 postures; Cai (Pull to be more exact Yank) done right will give the other guy whiplash. Lu (roll back) will break an arm. Zhou (elbow) will do a lot of damage too if done right.

I tend to feel the outrage or concern by some saying Martial Arts is getting violent has more to do with misinformation, myth, and movies


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## MJS

Xue Sheng said:


> When is the last time you heard violence and Taiji in the same sentence



To be honest....not that I can recall.  Then again, I'm not really in that loop, so....



> From Yang Style 13 postures; Cai (Pull to be more exact Yank) done right will give the other guy whiplash. Lu (roll back) will break an arm. Zhou (elbow) will do a lot of damage too if done right.
> 
> I tend to feel the outrage or concern by some saying Martial Arts is getting violent has more to do with misinformation, myth, and movies



Perhaps there's still a bit of confusion, maybe on my part for not being clear.  I apologize in advance if thats the case.   If you haven't already, please take a look at that other thread.  It was started due to a seminar that someone is giving.  The focus, I assume, is Modern Arnis, however, what sparked the big fuss, was the title...Whoop *** Method.  It was asked whats up with the aggressive titles.  My point was simply that in all arts, there is violence.  We dont need it in the title, however, any art has it.  It seemed to me that it was being implied that Modern Arnis shouldn't be violent, as thats not what Prof. Presas wanted.  My point was simply that there is violence, such as what we see with the clips I posted.  

Hopefully that answered your question, but if not, let me know.  I'll be happy to answer.


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## MJS

billcihak said:


> It just seems that when you, the general you not anyone specific, talk about knife vs. an unarmed attacker that it is automatically positioned as you have a knife, he doesn't and so you draw and proceed to use your knife.  That would be shaky ground.  There is a realistic chance that you may be confronted with a guy with a knife, or screw driver, who tries to stab you, you scuffle and the knife comes free.  You both try to regain the knife and then what?  The guy already tried to stab you, and you can't really just stab someone " a little," or to intimidate.  If someone is trying to stab you, you are probably on pretty good ground that he is trying to kill you.  So, you end up with the knife as you continue to struggle with your potential murderer.  Do you throw the knife out of reach?  Do you just try to keep him from getting control of it without deploying it against him?  As he tries to grab the knife or control it to try to stab you again, then your knife clearing techiques would happen where you keep him from taking the knife away from you.  There are situations where you may have a knife against an unarmed attacker that don't necessarily include you drawing on an unarmed guy and killing him because you have the knife and have some training with it.
> 
> Also keep in mind that just because he dropped the knife that doesn't mean he isn't still going to stab you if he regains control of it.  His original intent was to kill you, wether he pre-meditated the action, or you surprised him in the middle of robbing your house.  If he is still fighting, he can still end your life.
> 
> I get what you are trying to say out there.  It should be noted that iaido, and kenjutsu are arts that involve 3' long fillet knives used on other human beings.  They just dress up a little more and make their mayhem a little more formal.  The guys in the below videos are also training to inflict grievous wounds on another human being as well.
> 
> ​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> 
> *&#36948;&#20154;&#12398;&#25216;&#65281;&#22825;&#30495;&#27491;&#20253;&#39321;&#21462;*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have a police officer buddy who foot pursued a guy into a house.  The guy went to the fireplace and grabbed a poker.  My friend drew his pistol and ordered the guy to put the poker down.  The guy threw the poker on the ground and charged my friend, empty handed.  My friend had just barely time to holster before he engaged the guy empty handed.  Things happen.



You are correct.  My point was simply...what do you do once the weapon is no longer in play?  I"ve heard many say that once the threat of the weapon is gone, you need to adjust your response accordinly.  ie: guy comes at you with a knife.  You disarm him.  You are now in possession of the blade.  You now turn around and pretend this guy is a steak and slice and dice him.  IIRC, there was a thread in the Kenpo section on the blade.  I believe Jeff Speakman was in the clip, using the knife.  It was said by some, if I'm remembering correctly, that what he did after the knife was disarmed, was wrong.  I'll see if I can find that thread.


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## MJS

Xue Sheng said:


> When is the last time you heard violence and Taiji in the same sentence
> 
> From Yang Style 13 postures; Cai (Pull to be more exact Yank) done right will give the other guy whiplash. Lu (roll back) will break an arm. Zhou (elbow) will do a lot of damage too if done right.
> 
> I tend to feel the outrage or concern by some saying Martial Arts is getting violent has more to do with misinformation, myth, and movies



Here's the thread I was talking about.
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...n-José-negreira/page6&highlight=jeff+speakman

Note the clip I posted about Speakman.  Also note the comment Chris makes.


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## Xue Sheng

MJS said:


> To be honest....not that I can recall.  Then again, I'm not really in that loop, so....
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps there's still a bit of confusion, maybe on my part for not being clear.  I apologize in advance if thats the case.   If you haven't already, please take a look at that other thread.  It was started due to a seminar that someone is giving.  The focus, I assume, is Modern Arnis, however, what sparked the big fuss, was the title...Whoop *** Method.  It was asked whats up with the aggressive titles.  My point was simply that in all arts, there is violence.  We dont need it in the title, however, any art has it.  It seemed to me that it was being implied that Modern Arnis shouldn't be violent, as thats not what Prof. Presas wanted.  My point was simply that there is violence, such as what we see with the clips I posted.
> 
> Hopefully that answered your question, but if not, let me know.  I'll be happy to answer.



Did not really have a question but thanks and when I get a chance I will read the other post


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## MJS

Xue Sheng said:


> Did not really have a question but thanks and when I get a chance I will read the other post



Opps....my bad.    Meant to quote Billi.


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## Bob Hubbard

Guro Harold said:


> Please show anywhere in the other thread that someone said that this was "wrong". Just because someone questions something or disagrees with a utilization and clearly states a contrary opinion doesn't mean that they said that someone is "wrong".



From the other topic:


			
				Guro Harold said:
			
		

> Keep in mind, I have no idea as to what is being taught I and I know and  have much respect to the teachers of these seminars *but I don't agree  with the title of the programs.*


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## Guro Harold

Bob Hubbard said:


> From the other topic:


yes, stating opinion is not the same as passing a judgment of right or wrong, just not for me.


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## MJS

Guro Harold said:


> yes, stating opinion is not the same as passing a judgment of right or wrong, just not for me.



1) Stop grasping at straws.

2) Stop taking this thread off topic.

3) Do you have anything useful to add to this thread?  If so, please share it.


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## Bob Hubbard

[h=3]_mar·tial_/&#712;märSH&#601;l/[/h]
Adjective:
Of or appropriate to war; warlike:  "martial bravery".
Synonyms:warlike - military - bellicose - soldierly



It's a martial art, it's derived fro combat.

If it wasn't it wouldn't be 'martial'.

It would be Filipino Foo Foo Dancing, after which everyone could enjoy some balut.

Even Tai Chi when done properly is violent...unfortunately in the US it's mostly 'old peoples watered down yoga'.
That's only violent when a hip blows.


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## elder999

MJS said:


> Perhaps I also should've included the following in my OP: Are the FMAs, as a whole, overly violent? Should we be toning things down so they're more suited for todays world, vs. the PI?



They certainly have the potential to be-they're killing arts.

The old masters used to have death matches for _sport_.

Back in 2004, an Atienza kali student in NY, Isaias Umali, was convicted of manslaughter in the stabbing of a bouncer-he was trying to save his friend, who the bouncer was holding up in a chokehold with both feet off the ground. Umali was what I call a "victim of his training"-he exercised what he thought to be the only option in his toolbox. The bouncer was a 6'6", 360 lb. monster, and Umali and his friends were small Asian men. 

With that said, no, things shouldn't be toned down-they should be taught with less lethal options, and an awareness of the possible consequences for lethal action in our society.


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## Xue Sheng

Just saw this and thought it was applicable to the discussion



> Actual combat technique&#8212;when a serious attack comes&#8212;is not theoretical, not &#8220;self defense,&#8221; but destroy the enemy. - Adam Hsu


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## Guro Harold

Actually I was answering a question relating to your point.


MJS said:


> 1) Stop grasping at straws.
> 
> 2) Stop taking this thread off topic.
> 
> 3) Do you have anything useful to add to this thread? If so, please share it.


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## Brian R. VanCise

Violence is pretty integral in most Martial Systems.  In the FMA's there is an aspect of violence that is inherent as these are personal protection systems that can work in the civilian world as well as the military world.  A clip may be showing a movement with a military application or battlefield application or a situation that may require extreme measures even in the civilian world.  I would not get to worked up about a clip as generally we do not know the context of what the practitioner was thinking of showing at the time!


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## Carol

I really appreciate the fact that the Filipino arts aren't watered down.  When I was first exposed to the FMAs, I was in a job where I knew I would be going to the night shift.  I don't go looking for trouble, but I certainly wanted a fair shot of making my way home at night without it finding me.  The FMA schools seemed to be the ones that took my were the best match for my own needs and concerns.

There are a lot of fantastic martial arts styles out there, and I bet a dedicated student of the arts can do quite well with whatever style they study, but I think the FMAs offered me the best chance to get some worthy tools as I was transitioning in to my new job...then plenty to challenge me after I took the reins and started moving forward.  I wasn't a particularly good student, and still haven't settled in to a training routine even though I've now left my night job behind.  However, I'm very grateful that the folks I came across took me seriously.


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## David43515

I like to think that martial arts is a pretty big tent. And as long as you're not trying to sell your way of doing it as something else that it isn't, then there's room for all of us. If you just want your kids to learn self dicipline and have a sport to compete in, there are schools that focus on that. If you want to preserve an art or a link to a traditional culture, more power to you there are schools that focus on that. And if you are looking for ways to avoid real dangerous violence, well you should be realistic enough to understand that you're going to have to learn a lot about real and dangerous violence. And if that's a concern in your life there are people who focus on that. I think that having all those different types of schools is a big plus. The only thing I don't like is when the last category tries to tell you they can coach your kids to becoming a valedictorian with a room full of trophies, or when the first category swears they can keep my petite wife and daughters from becoming victims of carjackings and rapes.

As I've gotten older my own training priorities have changed a few times, so I can relate to people in most of those categories. But as I get older I find I train for fitness at the gym, I leave competition to the younger crowd, I get my cultural needs met at the library, and I tend to focus all my MA training on dealing with violent people in very violent ways.....because I know I'm getting slower and less flexible each year. So I agree with Xue's comment, keep the violence in the training because people who aren't interested just won't train with that group.I would only add that a big part of any seriously violent training should be teaching about the potential legal troubles that follow.


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## elder999

MJS said:


> You are correct. My point was simply...what do you do once the weapon is no longer in play? I"ve heard many say that once the threat of the weapon is gone, you need to adjust your response accordinly. ie: guy comes at you with a knife. You disarm him. You are now in possession of the blade. You now turn around and pretend this guy is a steak and slice and dice him. IIRC, there was a thread in the Kenpo section on the blade. I believe Jeff Speakman was in the clip, using the knife. It was said by some, if I'm remembering correctly, that what he did after the knife was disarmed, was wrong. I'll see if I can find that thread.



This is the thread.

I wasn't one of those saying that what he did was wrong, BTW. :lfao:

There are throws in jujutsu and judo that are quite lethal-most people who teach judo today don't know its _atemi-waza_, and how specific ones at the _tsukuri_ of a throw make the throw lethal-never mind dropping guys on their heads. I know some of that stuff, _but I don't teach it to just anybody_.Of course, in a blade art, it's hard to "not teach that stuff to just anybody," short of not teaching anything but batons and empty hands until later.....


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## kailat

Simply put, are you mature enough to handle the material, your offered?  If not, go train in Tae Kwon Do.  Kali is a bladed art.  Bladed arts teach offensive as well as defensive technique.  Be it even more so how to kill your opponent.  Ive studied Kali and how to kill w a knife since I was 14.  Today Im 40, Ive never cut anyone yet.. probably never will. But the knowledge is there if ever need it.    END OF STORY...  Can you handle it, or not...Problem w/ many Americans today, they water too much stuff down to make it "safe" or "kid friendly"... if you want kid friendly, stick w/ baseball...  THATS ALL


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## Datu Tim Hartman

My issues are not with what is being taught as much as it's who is being taught. Certain people shouldn't be taught ANY martial arts. What makes it harder for us is that we teach weapons. I don't teach my students much blade work at the lower level of my program until they prove to me that they are responsible members of the community. When we teach someone our craft it's like handing someone a loaded gun. Ask yourself this, is that a person that you would trust with a loaded gun near you or your family?


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## billc

As to not teaching bladed aspects of the art to beginning students here are some thoughts.  If you look at crime across the country there are people killing other people with knives, and in some cases samurai swords already.  In one story a guy was stabbed with a meat thermometer.  The people who are going to kill other people with knives are doing it already and they don't seem to need any training to do it.  In the area where I train, one young teenager killed his brother with a knife over a pair of tennis shoes.  He just stabbed him in the chest.  No time spent in training, no special skills.   My instructor is also hesitant to teach knife skills to people who first come in to class.  I understand this idea, but as I pointed out, the nuts and criminals are already killing people with knives, and the street gangs, who rack up a large body count every year, aren't teaching knife fighting skills to their members.  They hand the 14 year old a pistol and tell him who to kill.  Sometimes they actually hit the other criminal and not a civillian who happens to be in the area.

People who are going to kill other people are not going to martial arts schools and spending years of time training to advanced levels.  There are some exceptions but that is generally not the trend.  For some reason, killing someone with a knife seems to be something even an amatuer can do quite easily.  My point, I guess would be teach the more violent aspects of the FMA when you are comfortable, but I wouldn't base that decision on the idea that you are giving someone a skill set that makes them more dangerous than they already are just walking into your school.


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## MJS

billcihak said:


> As to not teaching bladed aspects of the art to beginning students here are some thoughts. If you look at crime across the country there are people killing other people with knives, and in some cases samurai swords already. In one story a guy was stabbed with a meat thermometer. The people who are going to kill other people with knives are doing it already and they don't seem to need any training to do it. In the area where I train, one young teenager killed his brother with a knife over a pair of tennis shoes. He just stabbed him in the chest. No time spent in training, no special skills. My instructor is also hesitant to teach knife skills to people who first come in to class. I understand this idea, but as I pointed out, the nuts and criminals are already killing people with knives, and the street gangs, who rack up a large body count every year, aren't teaching knife fighting skills to their members. They hand the 14 year old a pistol and tell him who to kill. Sometimes they actually hit the other criminal and not a civillian who happens to be in the area.
> 
> People who are going to kill other people are not going to martial arts schools and spending years of time training to advanced levels. There are some exceptions but that is generally not the trend. For some reason, killing someone with a knife seems to be something even an amatuer can do quite easily. My point, I guess would be teach the more violent aspects of the FMA when you are comfortable, but I wouldn't base that decision on the idea that you are giving someone a skill set that makes them more dangerous than they already are just walking into your school.



True, and if we look at it another way, people have been fighting empty handed for years too, without any formal training.  IMO, training just makes us better and more skilled in those areas.


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## Datu Tim Hartman

For clarification, I don't teach offensive use of the blade to the beginners. I teach my EDT (Edged weapons Defensive Tactics) program from day one. Of course they could apply some of the stick techniques to the blade if they wanted. I just feel that some material shouldn't be taught to the masses. Some people will teach anything to anyone for a buck. I have both refused and fired students because they were wing nuts or moral compass wasn't pointing in the right direction.


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## MJS

Datu Tim Hartman said:


> For clarification, I don't teach offensive use of the blade to the beginners. I my EDT (Edged weapons Defensive Tactics) from day one. Of course they could apply some of the stick techniques to the blade if they wanted. I just feel that some material shouldn't be taught to the masses. Some people will teach anything to anyone for a buck. I have both refused and fired students because they were wing nuts or moral compass wasn't pointing in the right direction.



Agreed!


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## Rich Parsons

Datu Tim Hartman said:


> My issues are not with what is being taught as much as it's who is being taught. Certain people shouldn't be taught ANY martial arts. What makes it harder for us is that we teach weapons. I don't teach my students much blade work at the lower level of my program until they prove to me that they are responsible members of the community. When we teach someone our craft it's like handing someone a loaded gun. Ask yourself this, is that a person that you would trust with a loaded gun near you or your family?



I was just asked last night by a 20 year old young man what it would take for him to get private lessons from me. 

I explained I do not accept everyone. What little I do know about him would make me cautious. 

So I told him to avoid the privates, yet I provided the fees. Then I explained for the cost of one private he could get a month of training at our Class. I asked him to show up and see what happens. 

I did this for multiple reasons:
1) Other black belts in my club can read hium and give me their opinion.
2) He can show up and prove to me he is serious in which case optimized / private training could be possible. 
3) It offers him a group setting to learn from others, and to see others struggle as well as a beginner so he does not get frustrated. 

I have asked people to leave before. Multiple reasons, from personality to just being a pain in the butt for me and everyone else. Most are surprised when the find out I filter people and while they are decidding if they want to stay I am deciding if I will let them stay.


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## elder999

Rich Parsons said:


> I have asked people to leave before. Multiple reasons, from personality to just being a pain in the butt for me and everyone else. Most are surprised when the find out I filter people and while they are decidding if they want to stay I am deciding if I will let them stay.



This is the only reason I use contracts-each one covers a section of rank and material. At the end of each contract, I have the option of not continuing on to the next one, and can ask the student to leave. I've only ahd to ask one guy to leave before his contract was up, and have only had to tell two that I wouldn't teach them anymore.

Had a couple of weirdos over the years that wanted to only learn specific material, or offer up some other reason that I just wouldn't teach them from the start.


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## kailat

I have to agree with the fact that people are killing people all over the world with knives and guns, and other weapons and have never trained a day.  In fact if they had trained under a legit system under a legit instructor, they would probably be less likely to want to harm someone because they learn to "respect" the art and not disrespect it.  I used to think this same way because I didnt want to be responsible for teaching someone the ancient Kali bladed art.  And if someone I was teaching had sliced and diced, fillet someone If i would be able to cope with it.  I asked my teacher about how he dealt w/ this over the years.  He just said to me, you have to trust your instincts in the people you teach, and you have to trust they will not disrespect the art.  If they do, its their *** not yours.   Since that day, I have worked in law enforcement, both in prison and on the streets.  99.9% of every knife attack is usually from someone who DOES NOT TRAIN in a bladed art. 

Basically what I do now a days, is just teach Eskrima (stick -NO BLADE) and as i get comfortable w/ the students I'll start showing them that they've been learning the blade the whole time, they just didnt know it..     CASE CLOSED!  haha


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## Carol

kailat said:


> I have to agree with the fact that people are killing people all over the world with knives and guns, and other weapons and have never trained a day.  In fact if they had trained under a legit system under a legit instructor, they would probably be less likely to want to harm someone because they learn to "respect" the art and not disrespect it.  I used to think this same way because I didnt want to be responsible for teaching someone the ancient Kali bladed art.  And if someone I was teaching had sliced and diced, fillet someone If i would be able to cope with it.  I asked my teacher about how he dealt w/ this over the years.  He just said to me, you have to trust your instincts in the people you teach, and you have to trust they will not disrespect the art.  If they do, its their *** not yours.   Since that day, I have worked in law enforcement, both in prison and on the streets.  99.9% of every knife attack is usually from someone who DOES NOT TRAIN in a bladed art.



And for reasons like that, personally I am very grateful that I found instructors that taught me work with edged weapons (trainers) from the very beginning, especially ones that would simulate what I actually carry.  There's a difference between a spyderco and a 22" piece of rattan


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## Blindside

One of the instructors that I did some private lessons with told me why he feels comfortable teaching people knife work very early in the training regimen.  The conversation went something like:

Him: Did you drive here?
Me: Yes.
Him: So the state has authorized you to drive 2000 pounds of metal at 80 miles per hour down public roads, do you really think that me teaching you about a knife is in any way more dangerous than that?
Me:  Well, no.
Him: If I was to turn into a mass murderer my weapon of choice would be an old F-150, it would take them a long long time to stop me.


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## billc

On the issue of training people in knifework, two incidents just in the news.  A bride in her wedding dress was found stabbed to death in her bath tub, they are looking for the new husband.  Four Guardian Angels here in chicago were stabbed as they tried to apprehend a man who stole an I-pod.  They caught the guy and I don't think any of them were seriously hurt.  This is my point on knife training.  You don't need any training in knife work to hurt or kill people with a knife.  I think if the student meets your trust level you should teach knife skills, if only to preserve them for the art.  It would be a shame to loose those hard won skills because people stop teaching them.  Our friends in the Japanese sword arts may be facing the loss of whole styles of swordsmanship because of their refusal to teach portions of their arts until students have committed to decades of training in the basics.  I know of one high level instructor who trained in Japan who after decades of training, still hasn't been taught the entire system because of the standards of the Koryu.  What a shame, that will turn into quite a loss.


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