# Internal arts and grapplers



## JadecloudAlchemist (May 6, 2008)

I have a good amount of friends who practice BJJ and Judo.
 Being a formal Jujutsu player I can handle myself well on the ground.
I posted before about rolling with a BJJ player and how that person tried to grab my arm but could not because of Silk reeling. I was having a conversation about Bagua and the BJJ practicer was saying how hard it was to shoot in due to the constant circle walking and spiral movement.

As Internal artist have you dealt with a grappler?

what principles from your internal art helped you the most?

Things that helped me were relaxing, rooting to help maintain balance, redirection of energy.

If you have not dealt with a grappler what principles do you think would help you the most.


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## Xue Sheng (May 6, 2008)

Rooting is rooting whether standing up or laying down the principles work standing up or laying down.

I have not spared against a grappler or maybe I have, just not BJJ or MMA but Judo and Aikido, but it was years ago before I ever heard of MMA. Follow and relax, and circular movement seems to really mess things up for many of those styles. However I will say I got slammed REAL hard by a Woman that was an Aikido teacher, she did not seem to have as much of a problem is I followed she adapted locked me and threw me, I was VERY impressed by her skill.

I also talked with a guy once that was a long time Yang style practitioner that decided to go train MMA and he was having a blast. He said he was learning a lot about fighting and training that he had not previously been exposed to and the MMA guys were having equally as much fun because it was teaching them how to deal with someone that was so relaxed and fluid.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (May 6, 2008)

I agree with the relaxing part you can see that in the Chess game in grappling.  I think push hands would be interesting from bottom guard or top guard to off set your opponent.  I find this to be an interesting topic and show the internal arts in a different light.


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## D Dempsey (May 6, 2008)

Internal arts are almost all predominately standing grappling based, so I'm not sure I really follow what you mean.  Do you mean on the ground or stand-up?  If you look at videos of chinese push-hands comps it almost looks like freestyle wrestling so I don't think you would need a specific grappling strategy.
The first time I learned double-legs, ankle-picks, pummeling, hip-throws and sprawling were in my xingyi, bagua, taiji class.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (May 6, 2008)

I am speaking more in the sense of takedowns, clinches, and ground work itself. 

The idea of the thread was how internal arts principles can be used in these situations be it avoiding it or working with the concepts in order to defend oneself.


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## D Dempsey (May 6, 2008)

I see.  Ground work wise you would basically be re-inventing the wheel, as there are already styles that use internal principles on the ground like BJJ.  Like I was saying before Taiji and Bagua are almost all wrestling anyway, so your strategy would probably be that off a grappler as that is what you are training essentially.

Here is a quote by Tim Cartmell about what Taiji is about:

[FONT=Papyrus,Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]Originally, the Taijiquan technical syllabus was primarily made up of throwing and standing grappling techniques. There were far less striking techniques and they were of secondary importance. There was no concept of "dim mak" or death touches. The heavy wrestling/grappling emphasis allowed Taijiquan fighters to spar full out, with little fear of infliciting serious injury. The skills developed made them formidable fighters. It's important to realize techniques that can be safely practiced live (throws and joint locks for example) can be used to cause serious injury when applied "for real" against opponents that are unprepared to be thrown and are thrown full force. Joint locks also become debilitating fight-enders when the one applying them does not stop when the receiver signals defeat.
[/FONT]


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## D Dempsey (May 6, 2008)

Let me clarify a little bit here.  My last post came out sounding bit harsh, and I apologize.
What I meant to say is that the internal principles are for the most part exactly the same as the principles used by good grapplers.  Things like posture, alignment, breathing and relaxation are the same for both.  Being that most internal arts have their roots in wrestling this is in no way surprising.
So in reality trying to use internal principles to your benefit against someone who does say judo, wouldn't really give you any leg-up as they are doing almost the exact same thing.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (May 6, 2008)

D Dempsey,

No need to apologize as long as the conversation is constructive all is fair game.  I agree with what your saying as far as similar principles between whatever said internal art vs said grappling art. I do not know your training background but I do not think many Internal stylist practice in a setting let alone roll with a grappler.  In guard or mound position which is a very close quarter situation of course root, displacement and redirection of energy and other concepts are going to play a role in the grappling match.  I do not see internal arts training in groundwork in a manner as Judo, Jujutsu and so on. However I think everyone can agree that the principle can work I am not debating that, So what  principles would you use or have used grappling? :ultracool


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## D Dempsey (May 6, 2008)

I see what your saying.  The first IMA school I trained at taught Xingyi, Bagua, and Taiji side by side with BJJ so I was a little spoiled.  In all honesty you won't see IMA principles on the ground with Judo and wrestling, now standing up you will since that is the place they tend to be most comfortable.  It is the opposite with BJJ.  BJJ players tend to be kind of stiff standing up, but are incredibly relaxed on the ground.
The best bet is to try and find some wrestlers, which can be hard in an IMA class, and let them keep doing takedowns on you until you can stop them most of the time.  This helped me a lot since I didn't have a wrestling background.  I'm still not a takedown wizard, but I can usually stop someone from taking me down.

Have you ever read Robert Smith's Martial Musing?  He actually goes into how similar Judo and chinese IMAs are.  His book and getting to train briefly with Tim Cartmell completely changed my outlook on Taiji.


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## DavidCC (May 6, 2008)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> I agree with the relaxing part you can see that in the Chess game in grappling. I think push hands would be interesting from bottom guard or top guard to off set your opponent. I find this to be an interesting topic and show the internal arts in a different light.


 
I'm no sure how similar you might think this is to what you wrote... but might be interesting anyway.

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## D Dempsey (May 7, 2008)

That video was honestly a little silly.  This is not me dogging on kenpo, but the person on the ground could have stood up or swept the person attacking him and any time.

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I think something like this might be a little more in line with what the OP was getting at.  Its clips from a video by Tim Cartmell demonstrating how to properly apply IMA principles to stand-up grappling.  Almost all the stand-up grappling shown here was taken from bagua so it has a slightly different look than something like judo.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (May 7, 2008)

Bagua I felt worked great against shooting or take downs. I also felt proper rooting really helped in take downs such as single leg take downs.
In double leg take downs rooting concept works well in sprawling.

I really can't comment on just BJJ stand up because those I trained with did Boxing or other standup.

For me again what I truly enjoy is angles I have always felt that moving at 45* and getting behind an opponent is a superior method of fighting as well as very easy to takedown from behind and get into the superior position of taking the back.

DavidCC's video shows I am guessing parrying I don't think it is pushhands good technique if you are caught like that!

I have read parts of Martial musing I think he and Don Draeger trained together and were friends.


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## Selfcritical (May 19, 2008)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> I have a good amount of friends who practice BJJ and Judo.
> Being a formal Jujutsu player I can handle myself well on the ground.
> I posted before about rolling with a BJJ player and how that person tried to grab my arm but could not because of Silk reeling. I was having a conversation about Bagua and the BJJ practicer was saying how hard it was to shoot in due to the constant circle walking and spiral movement.
> 
> ...



What are we defining as "grapplers" here? People who work on the ground? People who work for the takedown? If wrestling counts as grappling, I would say that the majority of internal arts practicioners I know ARE grapplers, at least as much as Judo or Shuiajao players are. Everyone's got the same basic centers of gravity, two arms and two legs, so there's only so much difference two arts that throw people can have from each other if they both work.


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## Selfcritical (May 19, 2008)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> I have a good amount of friends who practice BJJ and Judo.
> Being a formal Jujutsu player I can handle myself well on the ground.
> I posted before about rolling with a BJJ player and how that person tried to grab my arm but could not because of Silk reeling. I was having a conversation about Bagua and the BJJ practicer was saying how hard it was to shoot in due to the constant circle walking and spiral movement.



Does your friend have much wrestling experience outside of BJJ? If one is shooting properly, circular movement should cause problems in setting up the shoot, but not in executing it. The direction of force in a properly executed double is such that unless you've already removed your hips or stopped the motion(forearm stop or sprawl), you simply cannot yield to the force from side to side. You have to yield back and down, and when you do, ta-da- you have sprawled.


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## Selfcritical (May 19, 2008)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> I agree with the relaxing part you can see that in the Chess game in grappling.  I think push hands would be interesting from bottom guard or top guard to off set your opponent.  I find this to be an interesting topic and show the internal arts in a different light.



Push hands develops very similar attributes to Kuzushi(spelling?) drills in Judo or "Pummeling" in greco wrestling. I've found that TCC guys tend to have excellent sensitivity to feel locks coming, but not neccesarily better base or balance of their backs(different body mechanics)


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## JadecloudAlchemist (May 20, 2008)

> What are we defining as "grapplers" here? People who work on the ground? People who work for the takedown? If wrestling counts as grappling, I would say that the majority of internal arts practicioners I know ARE grapplers, at least as much as Judo or Shuiajao players are. Everyone's got the same basic centers of gravity, two arms and two legs, so there's only so much difference two arts that throw people can have from each other if they both work.


 Grappling in the sense of ground work. In the sense of mound positions from the ground. In all honesty you really do not see internal artist in guard on the ground as in BJJ.

 Nope stright up BJJ.  I agree with circle movement in making it harder in setting up a take down and I also agree with what you are saying in a double take down once it is applied by a skilled take down specialist.


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## DavidCC (May 20, 2008)

D Dempsey said:


> That video was honestly a little silly. This is not me dogging on kenpo, but the person on the ground could have stood up or swept the person attacking him and any time.


 
It's a drill, defend the punches then trap the arm... of course anyone can go outside a drill and do whatever, not sure what your point is???


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## jlhummel (May 20, 2008)

Hey, I've been reading all the comments and thought maybe I would put it my two cents.  My back round is in grappling first in grade school, then high school, and then college. I have competed in Collegian style (Folk style now), free style and some Greco.  I did some Judo in college (brown belt) along with various other martial arts along the way.  So I think I can represent the grappler side of things pretty well. Just a couple comments.  Lots of talk about circular motion: if you have grappling experience circular motion wont stop a grappler from doing anything, be it take downs, double, single legs, picks or sweeps.  A grappler will use it to set you up and take you down. And a judo practitioner will use circular motion to sweep you or to throw you.  Any motion in itself is not a defense against a grappler or a judo user be it circular or forward or backwards.  The main thing to remember with a wrestler or a judo opponent is that both of these styles are sports, so there are reactions and movements that are restricted by the rules of each sport. So they will dictate many of users reactions to what you are doing or using to defend yourself.  Many Judo practitioners are very susceptible to leg take downs and as are Greco practitioners.  They are just not trained to deal with them very well. Wrestlers will give you their back without even thinking about it and are suseptable to chokes and joint locks which arent allowed in wrestling matches.  So what I am saying is what works well against one style might not work as well against say an Aikido opponent or another style.  But the basics are usable in any grappling situation.  Balance of movement, low center of gravity, inside wrist and arm control, getting your opponent to post a limb or to extend it to be locked or used as a lever. These are the things that all grappling have in common be it on the ground or on your feet.


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## D Dempsey (May 20, 2008)

DavidCC said:


> It's a drill, defend the punches then trap the arm... of course anyone can go outside a drill and do whatever, not sure what your point is???



With your explanation that makes a more sense.  Thanks.


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## Laoshi77 (Jun 23, 2008)

I have studied Taijiquan for around ten years now and I occasionally have sparred with a Judo friend of mine and he rarely can apply any technique on me. As soon as he gets a chance I very quickly escape, like the proverbial snake, but seriously it might be because I'm naturally a wiry person however I think it's because of Taijiquan.
The key aspect with Taijiquan and other Internal arts is the elusiveness and effortless to every thing you do, well that's the way I look at it.


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## D Dempsey (Jun 23, 2008)

How often do you guys train like judo guys do?  Judo and taijiquan are similar enough that if you trained in a similar manner you would of course be competitive with them.
Do you compete in Sanda / San Shou at all?


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## Formosa Neijia (Jun 25, 2008)

Laoshi77 said:


> I have studied Taijiquan for around ten years now and I occasionally have sparred with a Judo friend of mine and he rarely can apply any technique on me. As soon as he gets a chance I very quickly escape, like the proverbial snake, but seriously it might be because I'm naturally a wiry person however I think it's because of Taijiquan.
> The key aspect with Taijiquan and other Internal arts is the elusiveness and effortless to every thing you do, well that's the way I look at it.



Just curious, but do you wear a gi when interacting with him? Many judoka are obviously used to having the gi. I'm finding that wearing it alters my taiji push hands techniques, which I wrongly assumed would transfer wholesale to judo. If you wear a gi, you may find that your friend gets more holds than you would think. And perhaps he should train no-gi sometimes.


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## thedan (Jul 4, 2008)

D Dempsey said:


> That video was honestly a little silly. This is not me dogging on kenpo, but the person on the ground could have stood up or swept the person attacking him and any time.


 


Xue Sheng said:


> Rooting is rooting whether standing up or laying down the principles work standing up or laying down.


 


DavidCC said:


> It's a drill, defend the punches then trap the arm... of course anyone can go outside a drill and do whatever, not sure what your point is???


 
OK, look at that clip again. Watch the defenders feet, and then watch his body as it repositions on the ground. Then watch his arms. Now, think about principles aplying on the ground as well as on your feet, and consider another aspect that i hear very little about in taiji, but that I find in it (with my limmited experience) in abundance- *structure*.

Look at how the defender structures in the drill. As much as yielding, I think your structure defeats a grappler, on your feet or on the floor.

Also, look at what the defender does to the structure of the attacker.

I may be all wet here (I used to be what the SL-4 folks call a "motion Kenpoist"), and I am just learning the Yang 24 form right now so my understanding of taiji may be off too. But that is my take on that clip. 

Dan C


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## D Dempsey (Jul 4, 2008)

thedan said:


> Look at how the defender structures in the drill. As much as yielding, I think your structure defeats a grappler, on your feet or on the floor.
> 
> Also, look at what the defender does to the structure of the attacker.


 
Structure is an essential element in all forms of grappling including Taiji.  If your structure is poor you will not be able to grapple at all, so really good structure beats pretty much everything and not just grappling.


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## thedan (Jul 4, 2008)

D Dempsey said:


> Structure is an essential element in all forms of grappling including Taiji. If your structure is poor you will not be able to grapple at all, so really good structure beats pretty much everything and not just grappling.


Mr. Dempsey, I'd have to agree with that, since I see structure as essential in ANY martial endeavor. I was just trying here to give my take on another aspect of what was shown.

Looking at those stomps, I can just feel the effect it would have on the muscles, and hips and shoulders as it both realigns the body and changes the points it anchors (roots) to the ground. They align the defender externally AND internally to deal with the force of the attacker as well as support the movment and force of the defender. Then the left leg shoots out as a "stance change" to support the lock and take down, adding body weight and momentum as well as positional/angular change and full range of motion (sorry for the "M" word Mr. David) to his maneuver.

Like I said, my understanding of both SL-4 Kenpo and Taijiquan are limmited. But it won't get any better if I don't put it out there for critique. Glad we at least agree on structure ... lol that is better than the blank looks I get around here when I try to talk about it!

Dan C


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## D Dempsey (Jul 4, 2008)

I know what your talking about.  I did xingyi and bagua for years before I got into BJJ.  I was also fortunate in that the guys I learned BJJ from were originally xingyi, bagua, and taiji instructors so a lot of the explainations were very similar.


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## Formosa Neijia (Jul 4, 2008)

D Dempsey said:


> ...so really good structure beats pretty much everything and not just grappling.



It's not that simple. Structure is FAR from everything, especially in taiji. If you have good structure, you'll be able to beat most people in taiji because they still aren't relaxed enough. But if you find someone that can really relax, and uses sticking, adhering, and following, you may find that your structure becomes useless.


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## D Dempsey (Jul 4, 2008)

Formosa Neijia said:


> It's not that simple. Structure is FAR from everything, especially in taiji. If you have good structure, you'll be able to beat most people in taiji because they still aren't relaxed enough. But if you find someone that can really relax, and uses sticking, adhering, and following, you may find that your structure becomes useless.



Maybe but if you don't have a proper structure then the rest of it will not matter.  Truth be told though I don't know that you could even develop those other skills if you do not have proper structure and alignment which are both develped in stance training and push-hands.
Edit:  I noticed elsewhere that you said you live in Taiwan.  Who do you train with?  The guys I trained IMA and BJJ with originally were both students of Luo Dexieu.


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## Formosa Neijia (Jul 5, 2008)

D Dempsey said:


> Maybe but if you don't have a proper structure then the rest of it will not matter.  Truth be told though I don't know that you could even develop those other skills if you do not have proper structure and alignment which are both develped in stance training and push-hands.
> Edit:  I noticed elsewhere that you said you live in Taiwan.  Who do you train with?  The guys I trained IMA and BJJ with originally were both students of Luo Dexieu.



Structure in taijiquan is only really useful in fajing -- issuing energy. Starting with training structure is okay. But eventually you'll have to get beyond it in order to develop other skills. You just won't develop ting jin -- listening energy -- unless you put relaxation first. That means dropping concerns about structure. Emphasizing structure will make your taiji stiff. It eventually becomes counter-productive.


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## D Dempsey (Jul 5, 2008)

I don't really agree with you, but my primary focus was xingyiquan and taijiquan was more of a tertiary focus at best so that may be why.


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## thedan (Jul 6, 2008)

Formosa Neijia said:


> Structure in taijiquan is only really useful in fajing -- issuing energy. Starting with training structure is okay. But eventually you'll have to get beyond it in order to develop other skills. You just won't develop ting jin -- listening energy -- unless you put relaxation first. That means dropping concerns about structure. Emphasizing structure will make your taiji stiff. It eventually becomes counter-productive.


If the structure is worked to the point it is part of your neurological memory, and so it is there without thinking about it, wouldn't you have both? Structure, while you work on allowing relaxation?

Dan C


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## Formosa Neijia (Jul 6, 2008)

thedan said:


> If the structure is worked to the point it is part of your neurological memory, and so it is there without thinking about it, wouldn't you have both? Structure, while you work on allowing relaxation?
> 
> Dan C



At that point, it's too late. The damage has been done. As I said in reply to you in the other thread, emphasizing structure makes your whole body constantly connected to the dantian. That sounds great, but then every point on your body becomes an obvious handle connected to that dantian (your center of gravity). Better taiji people will use this to throw you all over the place. Every point on your body can be used to control your center of gravity. 

One of my teachers proved this to me by putting me in perfect santishi, then pulling me right out of it by using my front hand. It felt like a crowbar was attached to my dantian. You don't want that.

Taiji is a non-obvious style. It works in ways that are a bit non-linear. If you make it about power and structure, you'll be missing what taiji has to offer you. Hope that helps.


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