# WC with throws and takedowns....



## geezer (Jul 16, 2013)

Most WC groups practice some throws out of chi sau, but this guy makes it a big part of his art. Check it out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LSzcRCQZEI&feature=youtu.be


----------



## WingChunIan (Jul 17, 2013)

looks nice but I have two issues with it. Firstly IMHO it isn't wing chun, the footwork and bodyweight distribution are alien to wing chun and from several of the positions where WZP elected to go for the throw it would have been far easier to strike his partner and the strikes would have been smaller more economic movements. Secondly whilst these type of throws look great with a compliant partner the reality is that they rarely work on someone actually resisting hence why you hardly ever see them in MMA, judo or wrestling. There were several times in the clip where the partner allowed his cog to be compromised instead of simply stepping back to negate the trip. Oh and I also question the wisdom of turning your back on an opponent in order to execute a throw.
Still a nice clip and a good watch


----------



## Cyriacus (Jul 17, 2013)

WingChunIan said:


> looks nice but I have two issues with it. Firstly IMHO it isn't wing chun, the footwork and bodyweight distribution are alien to wing chun and from several of the positions where WZP elected to go for the throw it would have been far easier to strike his partner and the strikes would have been smaller more economic movements. Secondly whilst these type of throws look great with a compliant partner the reality is that they rarely work on someone actually resisting hence why you hardly ever see them in MMA, judo or wrestling. There were several times in the clip where the partner allowed his cog to be compromised instead of simply stepping back to negate the trip. Oh and I also question the wisdom of turning your back on an opponent in order to execute a throw.
> Still a nice clip and a good watch



Minor error - Quite a few of them work, namely the large outer reaps and some of the tosses, but in different contexts to what hes using them. Its a bit hard to control and restrain someone during a fight, but you can use control and restraint to control someone and prevent them from engaging you (apply the same logic to the throws). Hes using that training as a format. Im not entirely convinced its the best way, but hey, whatever works for him.


----------



## StormShadow (Jul 17, 2013)

Whether or not these types of throws exist in wing chun, they certainly need to be if not.  Great stuff!


----------



## Argus (Jul 17, 2013)

No reason why they "don't exist," just so long as they stay within the principles of the system. After all, we're not really learning a collection of "techniques" so much as principles and concepts. The "techniques" we have are merely expressions of those principles, and not vice-versa. 

While I generally believe that the simplest method is the best, and it's probably not a good idea to be _trying_ to throw an opponent, if you just so happen to get into a position where you can't necessarily hit the opponent, but can throw or take his balance, there's no reason you shouldn't - so long as you don't try anything that will get you in trouble. I'm not experienced enough to judge whether some of what he did in the video was right or wrong, but I thought it was interesting and looked applicable.


----------



## Danny T (Jul 17, 2013)

Several of the takedowns or trips we do within the training in our lineage. Though some of the throws may be effective I question most being out of Wing Chun due to the weight distribution and body positioning. However, I also acknowledge that in reality when under pressure many moves simple happen and what is available within movement simply happens. Learning some possibilities when caught in such a situation is fine but I would not call it Wing Chun.


----------



## Argus (Jul 17, 2013)

Danny T said:


> Several of the takedowns or trips we do within the training in our lineage. Though some of the throws may be effective I question most being out of Wing Chun due to the weight distribution and body positioning. However, I also acknowledge that in reality when under pressure many moves simple happen and what is available within movement simply happens. Learning some possibilities when caught in such a situation is fine but I would not call it Wing Chun.



I was wondering about the same thing. But then, I've seen people who practice 50/50, 70/30, and practically 100/0, and even those who say "it doesn't really matter as long as you can lift your front leg." In any case though, you can't always maintain any set weight distribution all of the time, and you needn't so long as you maintain your structure. Some of the throws in the latter half of the video do seem to break that structure by leaning with the upper body, though.

Edit: Actually, the second part of the video he seems to be practicing something that is altogether different from Wing Chun, but kind of "mixing it in." It looks a bit like Judo, but more... Chinese? I'd like to know if this is some other Chinese art. In the first half he seems to stick to Wing Chun structure fairly well, though.


----------



## StormShadow (Jul 18, 2013)

Argus said:


> I was wondering about the same thing. But then, I've seen people who practice 50/50, 70/30, and practically 100/0, and even those who say "it doesn't really matter as long as you can lift your front leg." In any case though, you can't always maintain any set weight distribution all of the time, and you needn't so long as you maintain your structure. Some of the throws in the latter half of the video do seem to break that structure by leaning with the upper body, though.
> 
> Edit: Actually, the second part of the video he seems to be practicing something that is altogether different from Wing Chun, but kind of "mixing it in." It looks a bit like Judo, but more... Chinese? I'd like to know if this is some other Chinese art. In the first half he seems to stick to Wing Chun structure fairly well, though.



I think chin-na is apart of our curriculum at my kwoon.  I'm not entirely sure but I believe it is taught and shown how to mix it in with wing chun.  I could be wrong though.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jul 18, 2013)

Wang Zhipeng is the guy that was in Human weapon on the great wall







Wing Chun Illustrated Article


----------



## Vajramusti (Jul 18, 2013)

geezer said:


> Most WC groups practice some throws out of chi sau, but this guy makes it a big part of his art. Check it out:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LSzcRCQZEI&feature=youtu.be



Interesting-
However if you have good wing chun balance, turns and stepping you can throw when the opportunity is there.

Depending on the most efficient option of the moment you can strike, defend, break, joint or cavity work or throw
or combinations thereof imo.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jul 18, 2013)

Nothing against Wang Zhipeng, I think he is rather skilled, but the second person I trained Wing Chun with said there were all sorts of takedowns, throws and locks in Wing Chun and he even showed a couple. But they all were very relaxed, natural and maintained a Wing Chun type of structure and root.


----------



## Cyriacus (Jul 18, 2013)

Im not a WC person, so i cant speak for the quality of it, but this popped up from a search. It has takedowns in it. Lots of takedowns. From my viewers eye it looks a bit more like WC, and less like a Judo-WC hybrid.


----------



## Eric_H (Jul 18, 2013)

Cyriacus said:


> Im not a WC person, so i cant speak for the quality of it, but this popped up from a search. It has takedowns in it. Lots of takedowns. From my viewers eye it looks a bit more like WC, and less like a Judo-WC hybrid.




This... makes my eyes dirty.

WZP is implementing Shuai Jiao into his WC. While i would relish the opportunity to train SJ, to me it does not have much place in WC. 

Grappling of any kind by it's nature uses it's COG in a way totally incompatible with WC's aims and structural boundaries. We're "anti-wrestlers" as it were (you can't hook my limbs or touch my COG).


----------



## StormShadow (Jul 18, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> Nothing against Wang Zhipeng, I think he is rather skilled, but the second person I trained Wing Chun with said there were all sorts of takedowns, throws and locks in Wing Chun and he even showed a couple. But they all were very relaxed, natural and maintained a Wing Chun type of structure and root.



It's said that all CMA have these throws, locks and takedowns.  I have to agree, they must exist in WC as well. It looks very effective to me.


----------



## yak sao (Jul 19, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> It's said that all CMA have these throws, locks and takedowns.  I have to agree, they must exist in WC as well. It looks very effective to me.



The first time I met my si-fu, he stressed to me that WT has all 4 of these components, but for whatever reason, the HK style concentrates on the striking aspects mostly.
He also told me that when he was training in HK back in the day, LT would show throwing applications using WT concepts and that LT was like a judo master when it came to throws.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jul 19, 2013)

All styles of Chinese martial arts have kicking, punching, qinna and shuaijiao to varying degrees


----------



## Kframe (Jul 19, 2013)

So, what does it take for throws and locks and takedowns to be WC compliant?  Why must the WC stance an structure be rigidly maintained? Can you not make adaptations for the situation? Sometimes shifting your weight and stance has a large effect on weather or not you do the throw or take down efficiently.   

So I guess my question is, why is WC so rigid about there stance and structure, and how do you fit proper WC approved throws in?  

I guess it would help but does anyone have any videos of true WC style throws??


----------



## Vajramusti (Jul 19, 2013)

Kframe said:


> So, what does it take for throws and locks and takedowns to be WC compliant?  Why must the WC stance an structure be rigidly maintained? Can you not make adaptations for the situation? Sometimes shifting your weight and stance has a large effect on weather or not you do the throw or take down efficiently.
> 
> So I guess my question is, why is WC so rigid about there stance and structure, and how do you fit proper WC approved throws in?
> 
> I guess it would help but does anyone have any videos of true WC style throws??


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wing chun is not rigid. You first learn how ro stand properly and be balanced while learning hand motions...then you learn how to turn, shift and move..then you learn how 
to handle unorthodox positions. Throwing is NOT against wing chun principles. You hit when you can, break joints  when you can and throw when the opportunity is there.
I dont have a video. But if you look at my wing chun article in the finale  issue ( as an ikkustrated book) entitled "Asian Martial Arts" you will see the beginning of two throws 
in a demo with an All American Greco Roman wrestler.


----------



## WingChunIan (Jul 21, 2013)

Wing Chun does IMO incorporate unbalancing work but again IMO not throws and certainly not the type shown by WZP in the video which are straight out of Shuo Jiao. Firstly the low weight over the front leg position is not found in Wing Chun. These throwing actions are not found in any of the forms, neither are they mentioned in any of the kuit kuen.


----------



## WingChunIan (Jul 21, 2013)

Kframe said:


> So, what does it take for throws and locks and takedowns to be WC compliant?  Why must the WC stance an structure be rigidly maintained? Can you not make adaptations for the situation? Sometimes shifting your weight and stance has a large effect on weather or not you do the throw or take down efficiently.
> 
> So I guess my question is, why is WC so rigid about there stance and structure, and how do you fit proper WC approved throws in?
> 
> I guess it would help but does anyone have any videos of true WC style throws??


Wing Chun isn't rigid in its stances but it is very clear on facing the opponent and wide impractical and immobile stances just do not figure in the system.


----------



## Domino (Jul 22, 2013)

I thought it would be this video 
I would also add Sifu Chung Kwok Chow who has a system in throws/ground fighting.


----------



## StormShadow (Jul 22, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> All styles of Chinese martial arts have kicking, punching, qinna and shuaijiao to varying degrees





I've also heard and read this as well


----------



## geezer (Jul 22, 2013)

Eric_H said:


> This... makes my eyes dirty.



I hate that feeling, especially when I'm wearing my contact lenses. Try rinsing with "Refresh Liquid Tears" .



Eric_H said:


> WZP is implementing *Shuai Jiao* into his WC. While i would relish the opportunity to train SJ, to me it does not have much place in WC.


 Yeah, ...he swiches from WC to Shuai Jiao pretty seamlessly. Looks cool and he seems to make it work, but they are two very distinct arts. I wonder if WZP teaches them together or separately. With such different underlying conceptual bases, objectives, and methods of using energy, I cannot imagine teaching them as one blended art.



Eric_H said:


> Grappling of any kind by it's nature uses it's COG in a way totally incompatible with WC's aims and structural boundaries. We're "anti-wrestlers" as it were (you can't hook my limbs or touch my COG).



The "grappling" we do in our NVTO system is strictly designed to escape and recover to a WC structure and range. On the other hand, many of our attacks in Lat Sau, Chi sau, and Guo sau/sparring can just as easily terminate in a sweep or throw as with a knock-down using strikes ...well, OK, actually, they usually have_ both._ But whatever the case, I think we'd agree that you can certainly knock, sweep or throw your opponent to the floor without abandoning core WC/VT/WT principles ...or does HFY differ in that regard?


----------



## Eric_H (Jul 23, 2013)

geezer said:


> I hate that feeling, especially when I'm wearing my contact lenses. Try rinsing with "Refresh Liquid Tears" .



You got an "lol" out of me on that one 



> The "grappling" we do in our NVTO system is strictly designed to escape and recover to a WC structure and range. On the other hand, many of our attacks in Lat Sau, Chi sau, and Guo sau/sparring can just as easily terminate in a sweep or throw as with a knock-down using strikes ...well, OK, actually, they usually have_ both._ But whatever the case, I think we'd agree that you can certainly knock, sweep or throw your opponent to the floor without abandoning core WC/VT/WT principles ...or does HFY differ in that regard?



As a disclaimer, sweeps and takedowns are not throws, so we're comparing apples and oranges a bit here. There are certainly ways to knock the opponent down, we use a lot of Gwai Ma (knee function) for leg destruction which usually results in the other guy falling, or a faat sao to the 3rd eye if you've achieved a position of advantage (not straight on) can be used as a takedown. Neither of these require body to body contact though. That's one of the big characteristics of throws to me, coming from a JJJ background.


----------



## blindsage (Jul 23, 2013)

WingChunIan said:


> Wing Chun isn't rigid in its stances but it is very clear on facing the opponent and wide impractical and immobile stances just do not figure in the system.


A stance, or really a transitional position, that does not "fit in" to Wing Chun isn't necessarily either impractical or immobile.  There are more practical and mobile positions, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your Wing Chun philosophy.


----------



## WingChunIan (Jul 26, 2013)

blindsage said:


> A stance, or really a transitional position, that does not "fit in" to Wing Chun isn't necessarily either impractical or immobile.  There are more practical and mobile positions, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your Wing Chun philosophy.



There is a reason why the long low type of stances demonstrated by WZP in the first video are never seen in any form of competitive sports combat where throws are allowed. These things look very pretty and work on compliant partners but fail epic-ly against someone actually resisting and hitting back.


----------



## WingChunIan (Jul 26, 2013)

Cyriacus said:


> Im not a WC person, so i cant speak for the quality of it, but this popped up from a search. It has takedowns in it. Lots of takedowns. From my viewers eye it looks a bit more like WC, and less like a Judo-WC hybrid.



Don't like the slap fest that precedes every take down but I would agree that some of these moves are akin to what I have been taught (and can all be found in the forms), however as another poster suggested I wouldn't class face rips, neck cranks and trips as throws per se.


----------



## blindsage (Jul 29, 2013)

WingChunIan said:


> There is a reason why the long low type of stances demonstrated by WZP in the first video are never seen in any form of competitive sports combat where throws are allowed. These things look very pretty and work on compliant partners but fail epic-ly against someone actually resisting and hitting back.


Weird, 'cause a lot of these sure do look like the throws he's practicing.


----------



## jeff_hasbrouck (Jul 29, 2013)

Good vid. I've been wrestling and doing MA for 21 years now, and by god if that isn't a good blend.

I see a lot of people on this thread saying many negative things about the throws. Well, wing tsun has room for improvement people. We aren't just fighting against Choy-lay-fut or Hung-Gar anymore. Not only do we need to know HOW to counter the throws from the MMA world; We should also be well versed in them.

And for people saying he "shouldn't have" done the throw in that manner, or the partner was just being cooprative; there are only two things that a successful throw needs "Speed, and mis-direction". And that is from a grapplers mouth.

Great vid Geezer!


----------



## WingChunIan (Jul 31, 2013)

blindsage said:


> Weird, 'cause a lot of these sure do look like the throws he's practicing.


You're watching a different clip to me. That clip just illustrated perfectly my point. All were judo or wrestling moves executed from a natural mobile stance, most were inner or outer reaps or hip throws performed with very small movements of the legs and hips. Absolutely no long low stances or large flowery circular moves as demonstrated by WZP. trying to say that they are the same thing is nonsense (its like saying that WC and CLF punches are the same and the kind of throws demonstrated by WZP would get laughed at in judo and wrestling clubs across the world.


----------



## WingChunIan (Jul 31, 2013)

jeff_hasbrouck said:


> And for people saying he "shouldn't have" done the throw in that manner, or the partner was just being cooprative; there are only two things that a successful throw needs "Speed, and mis-direction". And that is from a grapplers mouth.


Really.......leverage / cog control, balance, timing....mis-direction isn't always necessary if the opponent compromises their own balance.


----------



## geezer (Jul 31, 2013)

WingChunIan said:


> Really.......leverage / cog control, balance, timing....mis-direction isn't always necessary if the opponent compromises their own balance.



True enough. Basically we use many of the same techniques that we use in WC/VT/WT to "borrow the force" of your opponent when striking. For example, when your opponent  overcommits, we go with his force and even augment it by adding on our own. If he senses his overcommitment and pulls back, we help him with a push, like playing with a yo-yo. As my old sifu LT liked to say, if a man falls in a well drop a stone on him! 

But to give Jeff credit, getting a guy to overcommit or overreact _is mis-direction_. Same in grappling as striking. You know, you push him, he pushes back and you drop under and shoot, duck-under ...or whatever. Get him to reach for you, and arm-drag him. Twist him one way, then when he resists, throw him to the other side. It's the art of setting him up. A lot of that in that clip in the OP.


----------



## blindsage (Aug 1, 2013)

WingChunIan said:


> You're watching a different clip to me. That clip just illustrated perfectly my point. All were judo or wrestling moves executed from a natural mobile stance, most were inner or outer reaps or hip throws performed with very small movements of the legs and hips. Absolutely no long low stances or large flowery circular moves as demonstrated by WZP. trying to say that they are the same thing is nonsense (its like saying that WC and CLF punches are the same and the kind of throws demonstrated by WZP would get laughed at in judo and wrestling clubs across the world.


Yeah, I'm sure you're right....


----------

