# Shin Conditioning.



## Thunder Foot (Aug 4, 2006)

I am just curious as to some of the drills that others do for conditioning of the shins. I realize that strong shins are very vital to Muay, and I would like to impliment the conditioning in addition to the normal bagwork and pad work. What are some techniques you use?


----------



## Andrew Green (Aug 4, 2006)

Kick the pads, kick the bag, spar.  

Don't do anything silly like beat your shims with a rolling pin.

Be patient, there is a difference between "conditioning" and "damaging."  Don't damage your shins.


----------



## mantis (Aug 4, 2006)

beat ur shin with a baseball bat really hard about 100 times a day for about 2 years. u'll develop 'thunder legs'.  let me know how it goes


----------



## lenatoi (Aug 4, 2006)

Work up those itty bitty shin muscles---walk on you toes, go up some stairs. Wait till youve got something there to condition. don't beat your bones---that will give you -- problems.


----------



## Thunder Foot (Aug 4, 2006)

Mantis,
Haha, is that sarcasm I sense? At any rate, I believe that shin conditioning is vital to Muay Thai. 

lenatoi,
Thank you for the reply. May I ask why do you believe training the shin bone will lead to problems? Is the striking area of the thai kick not the shin?


----------



## lenatoi (Aug 4, 2006)

How long have you been doing this?

Well, I say it can cause problems because of the tiny fractures left in the bone, A bone cannot be conditioned they way you are thinking only weakened or injured. Likewise, it causes depositsts to build up under the surface of your skin. This is not good, and could eventually lead to heart problems when picked up in the blood. These hard deposits are what make you think you are becoming conditioned. It is as I said, and not so. 

 Take care of your body.


----------



## Thunder Foot (Aug 4, 2006)

Lenatoi,
Thanks again for the insight. I've been doing Muay Thai here in the states for more than 5 years. However it has only been up until recent that I realized how soft American shins really are in comparison to the Thais. Please excuse my ignorance on the said subject, but I was told that it is the calcium deposits in the shin that make the bone stronger and more dense, along with the deading of the nerve cells (to a small degree), that enables the Thai's to withstand the generative force they expel. Is this incorrect? I'm just curious because being that professional fights do not allow shin pads, how else can one prepare their shins for direct shin to shin contact? Or even worse, shin to knee contact?

I realize the topic sounds a bit pig-headed, and I apologize but that is not my intention. I feel that shin conditioning is an important aspect of Muay, and I'm just looking for the safest, most efficient way to go about preparing my shins for said tasks. :asian:


----------



## MJS (Aug 4, 2006)

Thunder Foot said:
			
		

> I am just curious as to some of the drills that others do for conditioning of the shins. I realize that strong shins are very vital to Muay, and I would like to impliment the conditioning in addition to the normal bagwork and pad work. What are some techniques you use?


 
I'd have to go with what Andrew said...kicking the bags/pads is the way to go, rather than beating your shins with something.  I have heard of people rolling items such as a bottle or stick up and down the shins.  If this is something that you choose to do, it would be wise to wrap the object in something and start off slow.  

I personally don't do any conditioning other than hitting the pads.  I would also suggest if you're looking at methods other than that, to seek out someone who can show you the proper way to do this.

Mike


----------



## lenatoi (Aug 5, 2006)

@


----------



## lenatoi (Aug 5, 2006)

I have to admit to you that the calcium deosits do make your shins harder. But those deposits are so bad for you. this desision is yours. I can't really say anything more than I have to convince you of my standpoint. just do some research. 

 one last thing. always remember to ask yourself what your thirty year- older self would tell the now  you.


----------



## FearlessFreep (Aug 5, 2006)

I was just thinking of this subject...

last night in our Hapkido class we were working onMuy Thai style round kicks.   First against the pads but then at the end we did twenty seconds per leg at shin kicking a broom stick.  Then ater a breif rest we paired up and did round  kicks against each other (both of the partners kicking against each other at the same time).  It was pretty intense...pretty painful actually.    But the idea was to know what's going to happen if someone blocks you with their shin or elbow

My instructor said that it never really hurts less, you just know what to expect and to fight through it.  But he also talked about doing exercises (rolling pin) to help build up the calclium deposits along the front edge of the shin one so that it's stronger and you don't risk breaking it, etc..


----------



## Jimi (Aug 5, 2006)

Most pro Thai Kickboxers don't look to keep fighting beyond age 30. On ancient battlefields in Siam & Burma most warriors were not concerned with weither they could stand or walk well at age 60, they worried about being strong enough to survive the conflicts. Shin conditioning is hardcore for those who want to fight hardcore.Too many young people today want to indentify themselves as badass or hardcore, so they do such conditioning because they hear tale of it being hardcore. "I am so hardcore, I condition my shins with an old coke bottle" yet some of these MA's that talk of this may never fight pro Muay Thai. Shin conditioning in the long run will most likely become some kind of health issue. If you don't fight pro Muay Thai or MMA bareshinned, ask yourself "Is it worth the pain in your later years to act badass now?" Most Muay Thai fighters in Thailand grew up very poor and fought because some of them were sold to Muay Thai Camps, and had to fight to rise above the poverty. Many of these fighters are orphans or were sold and take on the camps name as their last or family name. If you are fairly comfortable in life and do not HAVE to fight to eat, why punish your body to say I'm Muay Thai badass, check out my shins. Many can participate in Muay Thai without such conditioning, but to condition to such a level and not fight pro is just an ego thing. Shin conditioning is not wrong, I've done it in the past, it just comes with a price on your bodily health. Just understand what you are doing to yourself, to deny the possible health issues just because it's Muay Thai if I don't my friends will can me pansy. Get over it. If you do condition to that extent and will fight, I say I look forward to seeing you fight and hope I don't see much more of the shin breaking clashes that take place. I have more than enough bumps on my shins, don't need any more. To each his/her own. LOL! PEACE


----------



## Zaii (Aug 5, 2006)

Seriously, no one should ever strike their shins with objects harder than their shins intentionally. Bats, coke bottles, whatever. You will deaden the nerves quickly, but you will also pay the price down the road, inviting a number of health problems, potential bone cancer among them.

The healthiest way to condition your shins is just to strike the heavy bag and pads. If you're early in the conditioning process, don't go full out contact right away when you start your sessions, start a little lightly and work up to full swings. 

Hundreds of kicks a day wth each leg on the heavy bag *will* condition your shins, and much more safely than any of the drastic methods some people recommend.


----------



## Thunder Foot (Aug 6, 2006)

Jimi,
thanks for the lengthy reply, I appreciate the informative post! I would also like to inform you that my inquisition towards shin conditioning has nothing to do with being "hardcore" hehe. My only goal with shin conditioning is to be able to maximize the techniques I learn on a daily basis, otherwise why train right? Whether we are speaking competition or self-defense, if we don't condition the shin... how else can we hope to effectively use Thai leg techniques? 

I understand your logic in the sense that it may cause bodily harm. However, would it not be more harmful to use the same techniques with an unconditioned shin? I'm assuming most have seen what happened to the seasoned kickboxer whom broke his leg. And as time passes, I'm beginning to believe that this is the painful reality of all people whom practice Muay Thai without proper shin conditioning/body conditioning.


----------



## Jimi (Aug 6, 2006)

Hey Thunderfoot, I think we are coming to more of an understanding. I see your point about being conditioned for participation. Although in the street we are less likely to come accross someone who will leg check a low kick, unless you are finding yourself fighting other Muay Thai fighters in back alleys. I just feel that level of shin conditioning is not for everyone. If my shins were conditioned that hard, I would take them to Lumpinee. Because I mentioned some peoples fascination with being hardcore is to identify themselves a badass, doesn't mean I was addressing it directly to you. I didn't even address you by name. If what I mentioned doesn't discribe you personaly, don't take offense, but I hope you see that for some others involved in Muay Thai, it is an EGO thing. BTW,  even well trained and conditioned fighters will still get broken. I did not mean to sound like I was on a soapbox against you. PEACE


----------



## tradrockrat (Aug 6, 2006)

Thunder Foot said:
			
		

> I understand your logic in the sense that it may cause bodily harm. However, would it not be more harmful to use the same techniques with an unconditioned shin? I'm assuming most have seen what happened to the seasoned kickboxer whom broke his leg. And as time passes, I'm beginning to believe that this is the painful reality of all people whom practice Muay Thai without proper shin conditioning/body conditioning.



Actually this is not true.  The minimal strengthening that results from the destruction of your nerves and calcification of your bones really doesn't make it less likely to break your leg.  In fact, you are more likely to hit and kick without regard for your "breakiing point" because you've short circuted your natural protection against it - Pain!  Now don't get me wrong - for a professional, the benifits obviously are worth it to them else we wouldn't be having this conversation.

The shin training these days is for pro fighters who are trying to fight as long as they can and win as much as they can.  If you're looking for self defenmse applications, there is no positive aspect to the so called "conditioning" of the shins.  Jimi and Andrew are right on.  I let training condition my shin as far as it went.  I never used extra conditioning because I plan on being around for 40 - 50 more years and I never broke my leg.

To this day I have no reservations about using the leg kick in any situation.


----------



## Thunder Foot (Aug 7, 2006)

tradrockrat said:
			
		

> Actually this is not true. The minimal strengthening that results from the destruction of your nerves and calcification of your bones really doesn't make it less likely to break your leg. In fact, you are more likely to hit and kick without regard for your "breakiing point" because you've short circuted your natural protection against it - Pain! Now don't get me wrong - for a professional, the benifits obviously are worth it to them else we wouldn't be having this conversation.
> 
> The shin training these days is for pro fighters who are trying to fight as long as they can and win as much as they can. If you're looking for self defenmse applications, there is no positive aspect to the so called "conditioning" of the shins. Jimi and Andrew are right on. I let training condition my shin as far as it went. I never used extra conditioning because I plan on being around for 40 - 50 more years and I never broke my leg.
> 
> To this day I have no reservations about using the leg kick in any situation.


 
Thanks for you reply Tradrockrat! However, I believe this is false information.  Calcification of the shin DOES make your shin more dense, hard, and thus less likely to break. Secondly, the damage to the nerves isn't to the extreme that you describe. It may lighten up the pain somewhat, but not to the point were you can't feel your "breaking point". 

In regards to self defense, I can't imagine how having tough shins wouldn't be beneficial. Being that its the striking/blocking area for most leg techniques, it would seem only natural that it should be able to endure more stress. Of course this is just my personal opinion, but if one is only conditioned to hit padded surfaces, how can one hope to survive bone contact? When a karateka practices for board breaking, they don't practice hitting softer surfaces... they hit something comparable. Why should Muay Thai be any different? 

And living for another 40-50 years isn't really relative as there are many Nuk Muays and krus over the age of 50 whom operate just fine without leg problems. I believe thats a modern paradigm that most people have misconcieved.


----------



## Thunder Foot (Aug 7, 2006)

Jimi said:
			
		

> Hey Thunderfoot, I think we are coming to more of an understanding. I see your point about being conditioned for participation. Although in the street we are less likely to come accross someone who will leg check a low kick, unless you are finding yourself fighting other Muay Thai fighters in back alleys. I just feel that level of shin conditioning is not for everyone. If my shins were conditioned that hard, I would take them to Lumpinee. Because I mentioned some peoples fascination with being hardcore is to identify themselves a badass, doesn't mean I was addressing it directly to you. I didn't even address you by name. If what I mentioned doesn't discribe you personaly, don't take offense, but I hope you see that for some others involved in Muay Thai, it is an EGO thing. BTW, even well trained and conditioned fighters will still get broken. I did not mean to sound like I was on a soapbox against you. PEACE


No offense taken :asian:. Surprisingly, more and more people nowadays are wising up to Martial Arts through the popularity of UFC, Pride, etc. It is much more common for a person to have some knowledge of a gullitione choke, a thai kick, and other basic techniques one may witness by way of media. Often, I see "how-to" videos in reference to performing these techniques. And while a common person may not "master" those said techniques, it doesn't take mastery to hit you with it. But I see your point regarding the intensity of the shin conditioning. I just personally believe that there is a bigger injustice in leading people to believe they can function in Muay without that conditioning. If people do Muay Thai without the intention of application, then thats fine... otherwise, they are only cheating themselves.

All in all, this was not the intention of my original post  . I'm simply looking for some safer methods, other than pad/bag kicking... because that does not work for me, it only takes me so far. :asian:


----------



## Jimi (Aug 7, 2006)

I hear you bro, I was just explaining that not everyone will be as hard (hehehe) as you in shin conditioning. My suggestion for you if you want something to help, is to roll an old style coke bottle up and down your shin. You can  also use a shinai (no pun intended) or light stick and have someone test your low kick and leg checks with it. Cross shins with someone willing. Find a young banana tree or palm tree, rope up a post and loosely bury it in the ground, let it have some give and kick, elbow, knee away.  My personal concern if a street confrontation were to arrise is not the conditioning level of the attackers shin, in the ring on the other hand! LOL. If shin conditioning were the only concern in a confrontation I would wear dirt bike boots or something like when I used to thrash at the 9:30 club in DC. LOL. I have worked a lot of headbutts in training as well and for street defense I would not say bang your head against a wall untill you are more hard headed than any opponent. Just me. Old Muay Boran and Bama Lethwei work hardcore headbutts, but I feel that I do not do either art an injustice by not conditioning my skull for full contact. My opinion is not meant to demean your interest in shin conditioning or other conditioning, I just don't agree with "condition your shins or you are killing my art"! My long winded responses are only that I hope you will better understand my point, and it seems we can both see each others opinion. Best of luck, I hope some of the conditioning ideas I gave you will help in good health. PEACE


----------



## tradrockrat (Aug 7, 2006)

Thunder Foot said:
			
		

> Thanks for you reply Tradrockrat! However, I believe this is false information.  Calcification of the shin DOES make your shin more dense, hard, and thus less likely to break. Secondly, the damage to the nerves isn't to the extreme that you describe. It may lighten up the pain somewhat, but not to the point were you can't feel your "breaking point".



And I thank you as well sir for a good debate.  I guess it's all a matter of extent of conditioning.  It most certainly _can be_ extreme, though I'm sure it isn't always so.  I agreed that the condidtioning does make it harder, but it doesn't give you armor plated shins - that's the real falsehood. I was a little simplistic in my previous post and you rightly called me on it.  The shins aren't completely deadend, but they do take *substantially* more punnishment when you feel less pain and you go harder for a longer time. More punnishment equals more damage, right?  And what we are calling conditioning is actually controlled, systematic punnishment.




> In regards to self defense, I can't imagine how having tough shins wouldn't be beneficial. Being that its the striking/blocking area for most leg techniques, it would seem only natural that it should be able to endure more stress. Of course this is just my personal opinion, but if one is only conditioned to hit padded surfaces, how can one hope to survive bone contact? When a karateka practices for board breaking, they don't practice hitting softer surfaces... they hit something comparable. Why should Muay Thai be any different?



Well I can only speak from experience - I used leg kicks extensively in my life and I never broke 'em - and I kicked like a mule   Shins already handle plenty of stress.  In fact, they ARE tough already!  Also, my experience in self defense involved rather short fights compared to my ring experience, so I have no problems stating that conditioned shins have no real benefit for self defense applications.  They really only enable you to take more punnishment for a longer time - just not that relevant in self defense cause I don't _*want *_to take punnishment for a long time in a real fight.  That's what I'm trying to get at I guess.



> And living for another 40-50 years isn't really relative as there are many Nuk Muays and krus over the age of 50 whom operate just fine without leg problems.



And I've met some who do - It does damage plain and simple.  Of course fighting does damamge too - perhaps it's a cumulative effect from all that ring time?  One of my training partners went the shinai route and saw definite improvement in the ring, but his shins look like crap today.  Now in defense of your point he still walks fine - for now. 

I guess my main point is that I just don't see a reason to do this unless you wish to fight professionally.  JMHO.


----------



## tradrockrat (Aug 7, 2006)

Hey Jimi - there have been more than a few times I've felt like I was banging my head against a wall... LOL  


Just gave me a headache:whip:


----------



## Thunder Foot (Aug 10, 2006)

tradrockrat said:
			
		

> And I thank you as well sir for a good debate.  I guess it's all a matter of extent of conditioning. It most certainly _can be_ extreme, though I'm sure it isn't always so. I agreed that the condidtioning does make it harder, but it doesn't give you armor plated shins - that's the real falsehood. I was a little simplistic in my previous post and you rightly called me on it. The shins aren't completely deadend, but they do take *substantially* more punnishment when you feel less pain and you go harder for a longer time. More punnishment equals more damage, right? And what we are calling conditioning is actually controlled, systematic punnishment.


 
I can see that. However if the bone is more dense, it may not be taking damage when used. The shin conditioning is a slow process of gradual hardening. Once toughened, I would believe that it would take something of equal or greater density to do lasting damage... which you are faced with everytime you kick or block. Secondly, to say "systematic punishment" is a bit harsh, hehe. Just like Professional Boxers who train punches for years on end, when they take the gloves off... they aren't able to generate nearly as much power do to weak knuckles, and weak wrists. And thats because their fists are constantly padded, and are never given the chance to be "conditioned". So what good is their boxing skill in that retrospect? :wink1:  



> Well I can only speak from experience - I used leg kicks extensively in my life and I never broke 'em - and I kicked like a mule  Shins already handle plenty of stress. In fact, they ARE tough already! Also, my experience in self defense involved rather short fights compared to my ring experience, so I have no problems stating that conditioned shins have no real benefit for self defense applications. They really only enable you to take more punnishment for a longer time - just not that relevant in self defense cause I don't _*want *_to take punnishment for a long time in a real fight. That's what I'm trying to get at I guess.


 
Hmm... if you've used leg kicks extensively without proper shin conditioning, either you were born with extensively dense bone structure, or you have a high pain tolerance! Naturally, the shins are not "tough"... its something thats acquired, which is the reason that the majority of Thai camps impliment some form of shin conditioning into their regime (otherwise everyone would be able to fight Lumpahnee right?). I think it would be safe to say that one doesn't acquire shins as tough as Thai's without conditioning them . And as far as self defense, I love these discussions! I don't believe the conditioning has anything to do with "taking more punishment", as much as it will enable you to inflict more damage on your opponent. Of course, many are quick to say they would do "this" and "that", but fights are unpredictable... and the reality is you fight how you train. And if one is training Muay Thai with weak shins, that person will fight Muay Thai with weak shins, right?  



> I guess my main point is that I just don't see a reason to do this unless you wish to fight professionally. JMHO.


 
Well, for myself anyway... I don't like to do Martial Arts for the sake of doing Martial Arts. If I am going to take time to learn a thai kick, I should be able to throw a thai kick. If I learn a shin check, I should be able to shin check. Thai's place such an importance on strong shins, it just doesn't seem to me that Muay Thai can survive without that conditioning. But thats just my personal opinion.


----------



## Jimi (Aug 10, 2006)

I understand you, although not all of us will agree that such a high level of shin conditioning is the sole requirement or Muay Thai dies. Did you like any of the suggestions given in favor of shin conditioning, or is that old hat to you? Do you plan to take such a conditioned shin into any amateur or pro fights? Would love to drink a beer a watch it. What do you do for your shins? Does your Kru have shin conditioning for you? I used to roll the coke bottle, kick a roped post, you know the usual badass stuff, back in like 1983. What you guys doing nowa days? PEACE


----------



## tradrockrat (Aug 11, 2006)

Thunder Foot said:
			
		

> Hmm... if you've used leg kicks extensively without proper shin conditioning, either you were born with extensively dense bone structure, or you have a high pain tolerance! Naturally, the shins are not "tough"... its something thats acquired, which is the reason that the majority of Thai camps impliment some form of shin conditioning into their regime (otherwise everyone would be able to fight Lumpahnee right?). I think it would be safe to say that one doesn't acquire shins as tough as Thai's without conditioning them . And as far as self defense, I love these discussions! I don't believe the conditioning has anything to do with "taking more punishment", as much as it will enable you to inflict more damage on your opponent. Of course, many are quick to say they would do "this" and "that", but fights are unpredictable... and the reality is you fight how you train. And if one is training Muay Thai with weak shins, that person will fight Muay Thai with weak shins, right?



Well here's the crux of the matter - by training on the sheilds and fighting in the ring, my shins did get conditioning, just not as much as the guy with the coke bottles.  My shins are no tougher naturally than anybody elses.

1992 - I was the ABA National freesparing champion 160 -169 lb. weight class (lower belt)- I won by kicking the crap out of my opponents legs.  If they checked me, I smashed 'em anyway.  Fought 7 fights to win it.  Now this is not the same as our full contact kickboxing championships (Bama Lethwei) held later in the year, but leg kicks are fully legal and utilized.

As for training Muay Thai with weak shins, it is my experience that they will not be weak for long - just by kicking hard sheilds and sparring (and occasionally trading kicks with your sparring partners - was I really that dumb? ) they will toughen up enough to fight well - just not enough to fight at a professional level - in that I agree with you.

EDIT:  I too am curious as to the actual conditioning techniques used today - I'm an old man now (34) so I'm a little out of touch.


----------



## Jimi (Aug 12, 2006)

Hey, another good conditioning application is to toughen your equipment so to speak. Don't use the softer & lighter Thai Pads(Not to be confussed Pad Thai) use really tight dense ones. If you own your heavy bag and are not pressed by taking the original stuffing out, line it well, and add any amount of sand to it. Don't need beach grade or pool filter sand, just like driveway sand. Then allow the sand to get wet, it will set not unlike concrete, tough on the shins alright. Hey Tradrockrat, I was training with another one of Jons students, my teacher you know him, and he had a heavy bag with some sand in it along with some original stuffing, it was tight *** hell & had so much mass it would hardly swing when hit. My shins ached, but later that helped me also win in competition in Annapolis 1995 Black Belt super heavy weight Bronze Medalist Burmese Freefighting. Only bronze I know, but other guys came out of that competition with injured ankles, knees & jaw. I was lucky not to have taken a lasting injury. Oh wait, you were there that year, duh. I believe you get a fair amount of conditioning just by participating, training on tough gear, tough partners shins/elbows, it put my shins above average, but not to the level of such hardcore shin splitting conditioning. If I run into a tougher shin than mine in the street, I gotta wonder why someone who conditions so much to keep Muay Thai alive is disrespecting it so by coming at ME in the street. Wonder what an Ajarn Kru would think? That kills its honor in my book, such kickboxing from Muay & Lethwei are known as the skills of Royal Boxers. Why throw it into the back alley? Unless some people think that's where it belongs, in the gutter with descent folk.LOL. I'd love to hear others opinions on what they do for conditioning, even if just to a moderate level of toughness, Come on people, let's hear it! PEACE


----------



## lll000000lll (Aug 16, 2006)

i have been conditioning my shins now for about two weeks. it is killing me. lol i tried kicking a wooden dowel, I've tried logs and target hand pads taped to the wooden dummy.

the 1st week i was just kick hard solid wood and it wasn't really doing anything but causing bruises so that's when i decided to tape some hand pads to the wooden dowel and start over. 

from my experience I'd rather do it the safest way possible. after all i would like to have use of my legs when i get older. my suggestion to anyone trying to toughen up your shins do it right, do it safe. save yourself the bruises. lol


----------



## Thunder Foot (Aug 21, 2006)

Jimi said:
			
		

> I understand you, although not all of us will agree that such a high level of shin conditioning is the sole requirement or Muay Thai dies. Did you like any of the suggestions given in favor of shin conditioning, or is that old hat to you? Do you plan to take such a conditioned shin into any amateur or pro fights? Would love to drink a beer a watch it. What do you do for your shins? Does your Kru have shin conditioning for you? I used to roll the coke bottle, kick a roped post, you know the usual badass stuff, back in like 1983. What you guys doing nowa days? PEACE


Well, we have a few ways to go about it. Nothing that varies too differently from what you're probably used to. We roll a pin up and down our shins. The pin is wrapped in a towel for beginners. We also defend using our shins against the shinai and stick to simulate a thai kick. Then we have bags as well... sand filled banana bag, and an iron filings filled banana bag, and a suspended medicine ball. We also kick thai pads, as some of you have stated also condition the shin.


----------



## Jimi (Aug 21, 2006)

I like the idea of a sand filled banana bag, and iron filings, wow. I would hate to have to hang that kinda bag by myself, would weigh a ton. LOL. I think thats cool. PEACE


----------



## Thunder Foot (Aug 21, 2006)

Yes, its definitely heavy. It could be a mixture of iron filings AND sand, however when i asked, I was told it was just iron. I don't even know how they got it up. I remember when I was first transitioning from the sand to the iron bag, I sprained my foot from improper kicking. Trying to contact on the low part of the shin, my foot would often make little contact. Just enough to sprain it however. Since then, my foots toughened up, hehe.


----------



## savior (Dec 30, 2006)

Get plastic surgery and implant titanium on top of your shin... THAT is "hardcore"


----------

