# Pressure points?



## Mider (Aug 31, 2021)

I saw a few clips of Leon Jay (Wally Jay’s son) doing what looked like pressure point strikes.

what do you guys think, is it bs?


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## Cynik75 (Sep 1, 2021)

It does not apply to the fight dynamics at all.


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## drop bear (Sep 1, 2021)

Mider said:


> I saw a few clips of Leon Jay (Wally Jay’s son) doing what looked like pressure point strikes.
> 
> what do you guys think, is it bs?



Yeah mostly garbage.  That is a terrible head position to be struck from so don't bend your head like that.

I don't know take a step backwards. Punch him in the nuts. Basically anything other than what that guy did.


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 1, 2021)

Pressure points work. Except when they don't. And they're inherently difficult to use under pressure when both parties are in motion.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 1, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Pressure points work. Except when they don't. And they're inherently difficult to use under pressure when both parties are in motion.


This. I love playing with pressure points. My primary art oscillates between focusing too much on them (in frontal choke defenses, for instance) and mostly acting like they don't exist. I like to train them where they are an otherwise-valid target. So if there's a reason to grip the forearm, I'll train to land on the pressure point. If I miss or it doesn't work, the grip was the real point; and if the pressure point has an effect, bonus. Same with strikes to pressure points. I'll only train them if the strike remains useful without the pressure point (I don't have a lot of those).

But they're fun to play with. And the pain is good for toughening - the young bucks like it for that. And the women like putting the young bucks in pain, so it's a win for everyone.

Edit for clarity: "Young buck" is a state of mind. I'm still one on my good days.


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## dunc (Sep 1, 2021)

Yes agree
I feel they should be icing on the cake of structural technique


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## Buka (Sep 1, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Pressure points work. Except when they don't. And they're inherently difficult to use under pressure when both parties are in motion.


That sums it up very well.

There's also an added way to look at pressure points. I look at the jawline as a pressure point when I really want to hit. And the top of the abdomen, and behind the ear etc.

I know they're not usually thought of that way, but as a striker, I sometimes think of them as so.

I asked Joe Lewis about pressure points a long time ago, he gave me the same answer as you gave, Dog. 

But he showed me one that I never forgot....because it felt like an electric shock. He showed my a specific place on the jawline to bite someone and hold the bite. You don't even have to break the skin, but you do have to apply good pressure. My poor black belts the next few weeks in the dojo, face biting the crap out of each other, oh God. But it remains one of my favorite pressure points applied just that way.


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## dvcochran (Sep 1, 2021)

Mider said:


> I saw a few clips of Leon Jay (Wally Jay’s son) doing what looked like pressure point strikes.
> 
> what do you guys think, is it bs?


The biggest problem with techniques like this is when is an opponent going to give you that position?


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 1, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> The biggest problem with techniques like this is when is an opponent going to give you that position?


I have not watched the video you quoted, but I use joint locks and pressure points to control violent patients on a far too regular basis. 
They don't have to give you the position. You TAKE the position. And just like anything else, if you fail to take the position you wanted, you should have alternatives in mind.


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## dvcochran (Sep 1, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> I have not watched the video you quoted, but I use joint locks and pressure points to control violent patients on a far too regular basis.
> They don't have to give you the position. You TAKE the position. And just like anything else, if you fail to take the position you wanted, you should have alternatives in mind.


Naturally of course, but the OP asked about the technique in the video. It seems odd to give an answer about a video you never watched.


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## Mider (Sep 2, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> The biggest problem with techniques like this is when is an opponent going to give you that position?


I was just curious as to the clip really, like was it legit, I don’t doubt Leon Jay or his Dads credentials just rarely ever heard of pressure points used like that outside of some ninja stuff.

ive seen Eric Paulson hit the side of the neck, but he’s really clubbing it etc though


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 2, 2021)

Mider said:


> I saw a few clips of Leon Jay (Wally Jay’s son) doing what looked like pressure point strikes.
> 
> what do you guys think, is it bs?


I've seen things like this before. I'm very skeptical.


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## Cynik75 (Sep 2, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> The biggest problem with techniques like this is when is an opponent going to give you that position?


+1
I've tried to imagine how this situation could come into being and I've failed.


Dirty Dog said:


> I have not watched the video you quoted, but I use joint locks and pressure points to control violent patients on a far too regular basis.
> They don't have to give you the position. You TAKE the position. And just like anything else, if you fail to take the position you wanted, you should have alternatives in mind.


Not in this case. Nor he is using pressure points to controlo opponent, nor he is using positional dominance/body control to gain sure access to attack the pressure point.


Mider said:


> I was just curious as to the clip really, like was it legit,..



 If the comments section on youtube is closed this usually means that presented technique is garbage


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 2, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> Naturally of course, but the OP asked about the technique in the video. It seems odd to give an answer about a video you never watched.


Why? The answer applies regardless of the specific technique.


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 2, 2021)

Cynik75 said:


> Not in this case. Nor he is using pressure points to controlo opponent, nor he is using positional dominance/body control to gain sure access to attack the pressure point.


In which case it has nothing to do with a conversation about pressure point usage, and you should maybe stay on topic?


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## Mider (Sep 2, 2021)

Cynik75 said:


> +1
> I've tried to imagine how this situation could come into being and I've failed.
> 
> Not in this case. Nor he is using pressure points to controlo opponent, nor he is using positional dominance/body control to gain sure access to attack the pressure point.
> ...


Every comment section for that channel is closed as far as I know


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## Mider (Sep 2, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Why? The answer applies regardless of the specific technique.


No it doesn’t...I asked about a specific situation and example


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## Cynik75 (Sep 2, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> In which case it has nothing to do with a conversation about pressure point usage, and you should maybe stay on topic?


But I am on the topic. The OP was about one specific situation and technique and my answer is closely related to it.


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## seasoned (Sep 2, 2021)

My observation of the video shows the left hand of the defender controlling the right arm of the attacker while palm striking the face with his right hand. As the attackers head rocks back the defender places his thumb and finger under the cheek bones pushing the attackers head back further while striking the jaw with a downward palm strike.............the question was do pressure points work, yes under certain situations. In this case a hard hit on a downward angle to the jaw disrupting nerves in the jaw hinge and thus shutting down the brain. 
Not really my cup of tea, just my 2 cents....


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 2, 2021)

seasoned said:


> My observation of the video shows the left hand of the defender controlling the right arm of the attacker while palm striking the face with his right hand. As the attackers head rocks back the defender places his thumb and finger under the cheek bones pushing the attackers head back further while striking the jaw with a downward palm strike.............the question was do pressure points work, yes under certain situations. In this case a hard hit on a downward angle to the jaw disrupting nerves in the jaw hinge and thus shutting down the brain.
> Not really my cup of tea, just my 2 cents....


Yeah, to me the most questionable part is moving the head back with the pressure points under the cheekbones. Those hurt if you're standing still so they can get good pressure on them. I highly doubt they're much accessible in the chaos of an actual fight, nor do I think most people in a fight would give in to the pain without doing something in response.


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 2, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Yeah, to me the most questionable part is moving the head back with the pressure points under the cheekbones. Those hurt if you're standing still so they can get good pressure on them. I highly doubt they're much accessible in the chaos of an actual fight, nor do I think most people in a fight would give in to the pain without doing something in response.


There's some possibility of the pressure point working, but there's also an ingrained reflex effort to protect the eye which has a decent chance of convincing them to move their head back even if it doesn't hurt at all.


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## seasoned (Sep 2, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Yeah, to me the most questionable part is moving the head back with the pressure points under the cheekbones. Those hurt if you're standing still so they can get good pressure on them. I highly doubt they're much accessible in the chaos of an actual fight, nor do I think most people in a fight would give in to the pain without doing something in response.


The deciding factor in the head going back was the palm to the nose while the thumb and finger only positioned the neck for the final knock out with the downward palm strike. Check out the video again and let me know if you see the final jaw strike........


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## Koryuhoka (Sep 2, 2021)

Cynik75 said:


> It does not apply to the fight dynamics at all.


Kyusho is not fighting. It is the art or skill, of locating and manipulating the points of the meridians of the body, according to the "destructive cycle" in Traditional Chinese Medicine. The hand/leg positions and the body mechanics that kata teach you, are road maps to the locations and placement of the defending techniques. But since practically everyone believes kata are useless, posts like this are useless.


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## Unkogami (Sep 2, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Pressure points work. Except when they don't. And they're inherently difficult to use under pressure when both parties are in motion.


People who watch too many movies think pressure points are intended to disable an opponent with a little touch or some such ********. Used in a real confrontation, they are intended to elicit a predictable reaction that can be followed by effective next steps.


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## Koryuhoka (Sep 2, 2021)

The understanding of the location of the points, gives you the ability to set up the attacker to expose the points and make them vulnerable. Is it not practice that makes one skillful?

When you learn the science of kyusho, you become familiar with what reactions you are going to get when certain dynamics are applied. Tuidijutsu, Tenshin, and other dynamics have to be applied for the skill to be effective. It is the compounding of dynamics that gives one the desired results.

Of course there are variables. We are talking about real life. But there is a science behind the successful application of kyusho.


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## isshinryuronin (Sep 2, 2021)

Koryuhoka said:


> Kyusho is not fighting. It is the art or skill, of locating and manipulating the points of the meridians of the body, according to the "destructive cycle" in Traditional Chinese Medicine. The hand/leg positions and the body mechanics that kata teach you, are road maps to the locations and placement of the defending techniques. But since practically everyone believes kata are useless, posts like this are useless.


Right.  Kyusho/Qin-na and so on are skill sets, not styles unto themselves.  Their techniques are used within the context of a compatible style (one whose movements are designed to facilitate their application.)  _Pressure point skills cannot be used by themselves_ (unless the opponent is a sitting duck.) A bullet is not useful or efficacious by itself - it needs a firearm, a delivery system. The particular martial art style is the delivery system for kyushu.

Before an effective pressure point or joint lock attack can be applied, the user (and opponent) must be in position and the opponent must usually be weakened, distracted, injured, or immobilized to some extent. The style provides the method by which this is accomplished.  This method, as Koryuhoka states, is illustrated in the style's kata - whether or not the practitioner or observer recognizes this is another matter.  This is where _kuden_ (oral transmission) comes in as these skills were closely guarded in Okinawa and not clearly shown in kata.

Since many pressure points are protected by muscle, bone or tendon, the opponent must be manipulated so as to "open up" these areas, exposing their vulnerability.  This is why it is important that kata be performed as originally intended, and with proper form.  Going off track here will render the following subtle pressure point/joint lock attack (as well as takedowns, throws and other good stuff) to be ineffective.  But many sensei/students do not even know this stuff is built into many traditional kata.

One doesn't need kyushu (forget about the magical BS seen on you tube) or joint attacks to be a good fighter, but they can certainly give a 5% boost (potentially much more) to the effectiveness of one's abilities.  And, when chance delivers the opponent in perfect position for one of these techniques to be applied, it will be a much enjoyed gift.


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## dvcochran (Sep 2, 2021)

seasoned said:


> My observation of the video shows the left hand of the defender controlling the right arm of the attacker while palm striking the face with his right hand. As the attackers head rocks back the defender places his thumb and finger under the cheek bones pushing the attackers head back further while striking the jaw with a downward palm strike.............the question was do pressure points work, yes under certain situations. In this case a hard hit on a downward angle to the jaw disrupting nerves in the jaw hinge and thus shutting down the brain.
> Not really my cup of tea, just my 2 cents....


Rocking the medulla oblongata. Works every time.


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## dvcochran (Sep 2, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Yeah, to me the most questionable part is moving the head back with the pressure points under the cheekbones. Those hurt if you're standing still so they can get good pressure on them. I highly doubt they're much accessible in the chaos of an actual fight, nor do I think most people in a fight would give in to the pain without doing something in response.


In my experience the pressure points on and around the head only work well when the head it trapped in somewhat of a static position, like being pinned on the floor. When the head can move away from the pressure it is much harder to keep them effective.


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## Koryuhoka (Sep 2, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> Right.  Kyusho/Qin-na and so on are skill sets, not styles unto themselves.  Their techniques are used within the context of a compatible style (one whose movements are designed to facilitate their application.)  _Pressure point skills cannot be used by themselves_ (unless the opponent is a sitting duck.) A bullet is not useful or efficacious by itself - it needs a firearm, a delivery system. The particular martial art style is the delivery system for kyushu.
> 
> Before an effective pressure point or joint lock attack can be applied, the user (and opponent) must be in position and the opponent must usually be weakened, distracted, injured, or immobilized to some extent. The style provides the method by which this is accomplished.  This method, as Koryuhoka states, is illustrated in the style's kata - whether or not the practitioner or observer recognizes this is another matter.  This is where _kuden_ (oral transmission) comes in as these skills were closely guarded in Okinawa and not clearly shown in kata.
> 
> ...


Abso-freaking-lutely.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 2, 2021)

seasoned said:


> The deciding factor in the head going back was the palm to the nose while the thumb and finger only positioned the neck for the final knock out with the downward palm strike. Check out the video again and let me know if you see the final jaw strike........


I did see that final strike. I'm not familiar with the principles behind compressing the jaw that way.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 2, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> I did see that final strike. I'm not familiar with the principles behind compressing the jaw that way.


the final strike has noting to do with any pressure point. It's just a "face covering".


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## drop bear (Sep 3, 2021)

seasoned said:


> The deciding factor in the head going back was the palm to the nose while the thumb and finger only positioned the neck for the final knock out with the downward palm strike. Check out the video again and let me know if you see the final jaw strike........



The thing is if I can position your head how I want then sucker punch you. You will eat dirt. 

Which isn't fighting. It's bullying.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 3, 2021)

drop bear said:


> The thing is if I can position your head how I want then sucker punch you. You will eat dirt.
> 
> Which isn't fighting. It's bullying.


If you put left hand behind your opponent's neck, you can put your righthand on his face and smash the back of his head on the ground. IMO, this is the most brutal take down. You can crack your opponent's skull this way. It works no matter how big and strong your opponent may be.


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## drop bear (Sep 3, 2021)

Check out this use of pressure points.


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## drop bear (Sep 3, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you can put left hand behind your opponent's neck, youcan put your righthand on his face and smashthe back of his head o the ground. IMO, this is the most brutle take down, It works no matter how big ad howstrong your opponent may be.



Sounds ambitious.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 3, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Sounds ambitious.


I have made this work (by surprise) many times againt big guys. Try it and see if it will work for you. If you put your right hand on your opponent's forehead, you will get even better leverage.

You are using your whole body power on your opponent's neck joint.

This is the only take down that I know that will work 100% (no matter how strong that your opponent may resist).


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## drop bear (Sep 3, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I have made this work (by surprise) many times againt big guys. Try it and see if it will work for you. If you put your right hand on your opponent's forehead, you will get even better leverage.
> 
> You are using your whole body power on your opponent's neck joint.
> 
> This is the only take down that I know that will work 100% (no matter how strong that your opponent may resist).



Yeah. It is basically a crossface.

But 100% effective against big guys. Not so much.

So say the other guy is straight up garbage. Then you can pull something like that off.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 3, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Yeah. It is basically a crossface.
> 
> But 100% effective against big guys. Not so much.
> 
> So say the other guy is straight up garbage. Then you can pull something like that off.


The difference is his other hand is not behind his opponent's neck. Also he uses a circular motion instead of a straight back linear motion.

I like to use arm drag, when my body is on the side of my opponent, I will use it with my whole body weight behind it.

Of course I need to guide my opponent's leading arm under my right armpit so that arm won't give me trouble. I may also need to comb the hair and bounce his other arm away.


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## Buka (Sep 3, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Check out this use of pressure points.


I remember that scrote coward F. I wanted to kill him then, still do.


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 3, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Pressure points work. Except when they don't. And they're inherently difficult to use under pressure when both parties are in motion.


Also balance points and nerve clusters, although using balance points can eventually become easier to use against resistance.  Takes a long time, in my limited experience.


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## Instructor (Sep 3, 2021)

Pressure points are a tool that can be handy to have in your martial arts tool box but they aren't the best tool for the job usually. Superior position, leverage, speed, and power are preferred.


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## seasoned (Sep 3, 2021)

drop bear said:


> The thing is if I can position your head how I want then sucker punch you. You will eat dirt.
> 
> Which isn't fighting. It's bullying.


I was merely critiquing the video and in no way condoning it. Pressure points can help gain compliance and as an instructor I prefer to keep all options open for teaching purposes,  but.... when the rubber meets the road knuckles and low kicks rule the day...


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## Koryuhoka (Sep 3, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Check out this use of pressure points.


Despicable, but most likely hit him in Gall Bladder 20.


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## jergar (Sep 7, 2021)

Mider said:


> I was just curious as to the clip really, like was it legit, I don’t doubt Leon Jay or his Dads credentials just rarely ever heard of pressure points used like that outside of some ninja stuff.
> 
> ive seen Eric Paulson hit the side of the neck, but he’s really clubbing it etc though


Hi some arts use the location of pressure points to strike and cause disruption of the nervous system. A down hammer blow to the top of the arm about 4 inches from the hand , then a back hammer blow to the side of the neck , both connected nerve points. Then a straight punch to the solar plexus nerve center , that also knocks the air out of them . I’ve seen more than one go down and stay there after this combination of strikes. So your disrupting the central nervous system and removing oxygen causing a blackout. Also either the solar plexus strike or the back hammer to the side of the neck will drop them. At least that’s been my experience.


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