# Wing vs. Weng



## KPM (Apr 8, 2016)

I was in Hong Kong just 2 weeks ago for training.  We know in the west that we spell "Wing" Chun and "Weng" Chun to distinguish between the two systems that use different Chinese characters for the "Wing" part.  And I've always been told that they are pronounced the same way when speaking.

Weng  永 Forever, Eternal, Perpetual
Wing  詠 Sing, Hum, Chant, Praise

But I had more than one native speaker in Hong Kong tell me that this is not true.  They said that "Wing" is indeed pronounced just as it would be in "chicken wing."   However, "Weng" is pronounced like the "ea" in "mung bean."   So there is a slight difference.

These are pronounced "Yong" in Mandarin.  I'm told there are more tones in Cantonese than in Mandarin.  So maybe this is where the idea that they are pronounced exactly the same came from...maybe they are the same in Mandarin, but slightly different in Cantonese.  I didn't think to ask Sifu about this.

As Sifu was explaining the differences between the two systems he would switch back and forth between saying "Wing Chun" and "Weng Chun."  At first I had a problem telling the two apart.  But after a short while I could easily distinguish between the two.

Just thought I'd share.   And before the naysayers chime in, I'll point out that my Sifu was born and raised in Hong Kong and is a native speaker of Cantonese and Mandarin and also speaks English very well.


----------



## wckf92 (Apr 8, 2016)

Interesting. Thx for posting. 

Was this trip relative to your Pin Sun stuff (?) Or the Tang Yik / long pole studies?


----------



## KPM (Apr 8, 2016)

wckf92 said:


> Interesting. Thx for posting.
> 
> Was this trip relative to your Pin Sun stuff (?) Or the Tang Yik / long pole studies?



 It was my Tang Yik Weng Chun studies with Sifu Michael Tang.


----------



## LFJ (Apr 8, 2016)

KPM said:


> But I had more than one native speaker in Hong Kong tell me that this is not true.  They said that "Wing" is indeed pronounced just as it would be in "chicken wing."   However, "Weng" is pronounced like the "ea" in "mung bean."   So there is a slight difference.



I can't tell by your accent where you're from in the States. Lower East Coast maybe? To me both these English words have the same long E sound. I have to try hard to make out any slight difference.



> These are pronounced "Yong" in Mandarin.  I'm told there are more tones in Cantonese than in Mandarin.  So maybe this is where the idea that they are pronounced exactly the same came from...maybe they are the same in Mandarin, but slightly different in Cantonese.



It should just be a tone difference in Cantonese, not actually a different vowel. One starts low-mid and rises slightly to mid. The other stays level at low-mid. 

I guess, the different tones may give the illusion of a slightly different vowel sound if you haven't trained your ears for them, and native speakers who aren't linguists usually can't explain very accurately what to them is just a natural phenomenon they never thought about explaining before.

永 wing5
咏 wing6







In Mandarin, they are exactly the same sound (yong), both with a 3rd tone, dipping low then rising.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Apr 8, 2016)

KPM said:


> They said that "Wing" is indeed pronounced just as it would be in "chicken wing." However, "Weng" is pronounced like the "ea" in "mung bean."


Like LFJ, I pronounce the "i" in "wing" with the same vowel sound as the "ea" in "bean." Must be a regionalism to have them different.


----------



## mograph (Apr 8, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Like LFJ, I pronounce the "i" in "wing" with the same vowel sound as the "ea" in "bean."


The latter has a slightly higher tongue position, doesn't it?





Chart with audio:
IPA vowel chart with audio - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## KPM (Apr 8, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Like LFJ, I pronounce the "i" in "wing" with the same vowel sound as the "ea" in "bean." Must be a regionalism to have them different.



How about the "ee" in "seen" ...as in..."the motion was seen by the runner"?   To me, it is pronounced the same way as the "ea" in "bean" and the "e" in "weng."


----------



## LFJ (Apr 8, 2016)

I've never seen wings on a bean, and I hear the same E times three.


----------



## guy b. (Apr 8, 2016)

Wow, Americans talk funny


----------



## Marnetmar (Apr 8, 2016)

Since when are the "ee" sounds in "seen," "wing," and "bean" pronounced differently from each other? I'm so confused.


----------



## guy b. (Apr 8, 2016)

Marnetmar said:


> Since when are the "ee" sounds in "seen," "wing," and "bean" pronounced differently from each other? I'm so confused.



Hint: there isn't an "ee" sound in wing; there is an "i" sound.


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 8, 2016)

You should hear the Japanese commands as spoken by people with British regional accents, we've had Japanese nationals totally bemused before now.


----------



## KPM (Apr 8, 2016)

The difference between "Wing" and "Weng" is the same as the difference between "sing" and "seen" or "cling" and "clean."  The "I" has just a bit of a higher tone.


----------



## guy b. (Apr 8, 2016)

KPM said:


> The difference between "Wing" and "Weng" is the same as the difference between "sing" and "seen" or "cling" and "clean." The "I" has just a bit of a higher tone.



You have lost me. With my accent those words don't sound anything like each other. First has an "i" sound, second has an "ee" sound. Very different.

For sing I don't say seeng, I say sing. With an "i" sound


----------



## KPM (Apr 8, 2016)

Are you not following?  I said they were different, not the same.


----------



## mograph (Apr 8, 2016)

Boy, you guys can argue about anything.


----------



## Vajramusti (Apr 8, 2016)

mograph said:


> Boy, you guys can argue about anything.




And usually its boring.


----------



## Danny T (Apr 8, 2016)

LOL...guy b and KPM are agreeing and yet that becomes an argument as well...


----------



## LFJ (Apr 8, 2016)

Can somebody upload or link a voice recording showing how they are different?

The only difference between cling and clean I hear is a G on the end or not.

In any case, wing5 and wing6 in Cantonese have the exact same vowel sound. The first word just rises slightly as you say it more like a question and the other stays low and flat. The vowel doesn't change.


----------



## mograph (Apr 9, 2016)

LFJ said:


> The only difference between cling and clean I hear is a G on the end or not.


Lower the back of your your tongue a little on "cling" and/or raise it a little on "clean."


----------



## KPM (Apr 9, 2016)

Danny T said:


> LOL...guy b and KPM are agreeing and yet that becomes an argument as well...



Amazing, isn't it!  These guys will argue about anything!  And Guy once again demonstrates his inability to follow what a  thread is actually saying!


----------



## KPM (Apr 9, 2016)

Compare:

Definition of BRING

to:

Definition of BEAN

or compare:

Definition of CLING

to:

Definition of CLEAN


----------



## KPM (Apr 9, 2016)

Vajramusti said:


> And usually its boring.



None of you have to follow anything you feel is boring.  Commenting on it doesn't help anything either.  If you have nothing to contribute to the thread, why post?  Just ignore the thread and go on.


----------



## LFJ (Apr 9, 2016)

KPM said:


> Compare:



Comparing the audio for bring to cling, they are different. I pronounce cling the way the male voice pronounced bring, that is with a long e, not a short i.

I hear the vowel in cling sounding like the word "in" there (short i), but that sounds very strange and nasally and is definitely not so-called Standard or General American English.


----------



## guy b. (Apr 9, 2016)

Vajramusti said:


> And usually its boring.




Saying nothing apart from the odd snarky comment is also boring Joy. KPM is correct,if you don't find it interesting, just don't comment.


----------



## guy b. (Apr 9, 2016)

KPM said:


> Amazing, isn't it!  These guys will argue about anything!  And Guy once again demonstrates his inability to follow what a  thread is actually saying!



No, I am just saying that the following comparison doesn't make sense in terms of my accent:



> The difference between "Wing" and "Weng" is the same as the difference between "sing" and "seen" or "cling" and "clean." The "I" has just a bit of a higher tone.



For me the difference between those words is not an "i" with a higher tone as you say, and so not sure what you mean. It isn't that I can't follow what you are trying to say, just that your comparison doesn't hold with some accents. I have a regional British accent.


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 9, 2016)

guy b. said:


> No, I am just saying that the following comparison doesn't make sense in terms of my accent:
> 
> 
> 
> For me the difference between those words is not an "i" with a higher tone as you say, and so not sure what you mean. It isn't that I can't follow what you are trying to say, just that your comparison doesn't hold with some accents. *I have a regional British accent*.



Brum, Scouse, Geordie? Not estuary English?


----------



## geezer (Apr 9, 2016)

guy b. said:


> No, I am just saying that the following comparison doesn't make sense in terms of my accent:
> 
> 
> 
> For me the difference between those words is not an "i" with a higher tone as you say, and so not sure what you mean. It isn't that I can't follow what you are trying to say, just that your comparison doesn't hold with some accents. I have a regional British accent.



I can totally understand that. Here's a question: Do you _also_ speak whatever the standard "newscaster" version of British English is? You know. like on the BBC? Most educated Americans (not really an oxymoron) who were raised speaking a regional dialect can code-switch and speak standard American English when it suits them. You see this a lot with politicians who may speak heavily accented English to their local constituents and yet speak Standard American (Yankee) English to their peers in Washington. Bill Clinton was known for this. George W. Bush, on the other hand.... er, not so much.

As for myself, I routinely code switch between Standard American and WR (Western Redneck). Also, I find that listening to the BBC presents no problems of comprehension although I cannot speak in any British, Scottish, or Irish accent ...at least when sober. Once in my college days I got drunk in an Irish bar in Boston and friends tell me that I was apparently channeling my Great Grampa Murphy, and for the first time in my life, told jokes that were _actually funny_. But I have no clear memory of the occasion.


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 9, 2016)

Here we tend to just speak with whatever accent we have, I've never heard anyone speak 'posh' as well as having a regional accent. Most people would be very upset if you tried to change their accents. Think Sean Bean for example or Michael Caine.
I think regional accents come into the various languages used in martial arts a lot, it confuse things a lot. I've been hard put to understand common Japanese words when used by some people with accents. It can make training a little difficult sometimes.


----------



## KPM (Apr 9, 2016)

guy b. said:


> No, I am just saying that the following comparison doesn't make sense in terms of my accent:
> 
> 
> 
> For me the difference between those words is not an "i" with a higher tone as you say, and so not sure what you mean. It isn't that I can't follow what you are trying to say, just that your comparison doesn't hold with some accents. I have a regional British accent.



Ok.  Fair enough.  I just used those as examples of the difference I was hearing between "Wing Chun" and "Weng Chun" when my Sifu pronounced them.   And the pronunciation examples I provided from Webster are applicable and appropriate to the differences I was trying to point out, whether you yourself pronounce those words that way or not.   Again, they are just examples.   Why does everything have to be an argument?


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 9, 2016)

Ok, as a demonstration of some British accents/dialects, and to defuse any arguments I'm posting up a funny ( well to the Brits lol) video of one of our comedians Jimmy Carr teaching how to do accents/dialects. It's not too long so may give people a breather and not start arguing again. You can imagine martial arts instructions given in their native language but spoken with these accents


----------



## dudewingchun (Apr 9, 2016)

KPM said:


> Compare:
> 
> Definition of BRING
> 
> ...



That cling sounds so wrong to me. This thread has confused me alot.


----------



## KPM (Apr 9, 2016)

dudewingchun said:


> That cling sounds so wrong to me. This thread has confused me alot.



Again, don't worry about whether the computer is pronouncing the words the same way that you pronounce the words.  Focus on the difference between the two examples.  That is the difference I am hearing between "Wing" and "Weng."   And remember, people have long said that Chinese is a difficult language because of subtle differences in pronunciation of words.


----------



## LFJ (Apr 10, 2016)

KPM said:


> That is the difference I am hearing between "Wing" and "Weng."



I think what's happening is that as a speaker of a non-tonal language you are trying to attribute the difference you're hearing to a vowel change rather than a change in tone.

Here you can listen to the two words. The vowel remains the same, but the tonal change is quite clear.

咏 Wing6 : low-mid & level.
永 Wing5 : low-mid rising to mid.


----------



## KPM (Apr 10, 2016)

Perhaps you are right!  I'm no linguist, but it seems to me that in English the difference in how some vowels and vowel combinations are pronounced are simply a tonal change.   For instance, the difference between "Wing" and "Win."   In this case for them to be the same, the second one would be pronounced like "Ween."  But it isn't, it is pronounced like "When."  

But anyway, thanks for the links to the Chinese site!  Those links support the idea that "Wing" and "Weng" are indeed pronounced differently and not the same.....as I have heard said for a number of years now.


----------



## Buka (Apr 10, 2016)

God, I love this place. Learn all kinds of things.

As for accents and linguistics, I'm from New England, when I watch some tv shows from England, like my favorite, Luther, I have to put on closed captions because we here in New England all know the English don't speak English, they speak British. (I'm kidding, Tez) Youse guys know that, though.

If I run into my old Wing Chun friends I'll have to ask them what they kicked my butt with, Wing or Weng.


----------



## geezer (Apr 10, 2016)

LFJ said:


> I think what's happening is that as a speaker of a non-tonal language you are trying to attribute the difference you're hearing to a vowel change rather than a change in tone.
> 
> Here you can listen to the two words. The vowel remains the same, but the tonal change is quite clear.
> 
> ...



LFJ -- Thanks so much for this site. I believe you make an excellent point regarding how non-speakers of a tonal language may attribute tonal changes to vowel changes. I also found myself a little confused by some of KPM's descriptions. 

Even though KPM and I are apparently speakers of the same dialect, i.e. Standard American English, there is still considerable regional variation in the pronunciation of certain vowels. Since these variations are not phonemic, we tend to ignore them, but they would affect the way we hear and interpret sounds in other languages.


----------



## mograph (Apr 10, 2016)

Buka said:


> ... when I watch some tv shows from England, like my favorite, Luther ...


" ... 's not roight. Ner, somthin's not roight."


----------



## Vajramusti (Apr 10, 2016)

mograph said:


> " ... 's not roight. Ner, somthin's not roight."


---------
sumpn fer shore


----------



## Tames D (Apr 10, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Ok, as a demonstration of some British accents/dialects, and to defuse any arguments I'm posting up a funny ( well to the Brits lol) video of one of our comedians Jimmy Carr teaching how to do accents/dialects. It's not too long so may give people a breather and not start arguing again. You can imagine martial arts instructions given in their native language but spoken with these accents


Guess you had to be there....


----------



## LFJ (Apr 10, 2016)

geezer said:


> Even though KPM and I are apparently speakers of the same dialect, i.e. Standard American English



Don't know about you, but KPM definitely has a non-SAE accent in the couple videos I've seen of him.

Not quite sure where to place it though, because it's slight, and may just be his squealy voice.  

But at times, it's like it has a bit of a Southern twang or something. For example, he pronounces _him_ like _'eem_, which is definitely a Southern thing.

It's not terribly thick, but there's enough of an accent there. I guess that's why he pronounces _cling_ and _clean_ differently.

Do you pronounce _cling_ with a long E or a short I? That is, like _clean + g _or _clinch - ch + g_?


----------



## ivanr (Apr 11, 2016)

hello,
with all the respect to anyone. Here from the streets of Hong Kong. By speaking out is not 100% same for sure, but clouse to same.
greetings, ir


----------



## KPM (Apr 11, 2016)

_Don't know about you, but KPM definitely has a non-SAE accent in the couple videos I've seen of him.  Not quite sure where to place it though, because it's slight, and may just be his squealy voice. _


Texas accent filtered through 12 years of living in Maryland.


----------



## KPM (Apr 11, 2016)

Thanks Ivan!  Yes, the different spellings in English is definitely a western thing that we have come up with to distinguish between the two systems since we seldom use the Chinese characters.   And glad to see that you also hear a difference in the pronunciations!

Here is another example for those that may still be confused, or maybe it will just create more confusion!  

Say the English word "wing."   Now say the English word "when."  Notice a difference?   Now say the made up word "wheng."   That should sound different to you than "wing."  This is the difference I hear between "Wing Chun" and "Weng Chun."


----------



## LFJ (Apr 11, 2016)

KPM said:


> Texas accent filtered through 12 years of living in Maryland.



Earlier I guessed Southern East Coast, but I guess it's Southern _and_ East Coast then, ha!



KPM said:


> Say the English word "wing."   Now say the English word "when."  Notice a difference?   Now say the made up word "wheng."   That should sound different to you than "wing."



Those are just what I call the long < e > and short < i > sounds.


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 11, 2016)

KPM said:


> Say the English word "wing."   Now say the English word "when."  Notice a difference?   Now say the made up word "wheng."   That should sound different to you than "wing."  This is the difference I hear between "Wing Chun" and "Weng Chun."



Sadly that won't work in the UK, some dialects will pronounce 'when' with the wh very guttural ( like Dutch or German), others will pronounce the 'g' very hard so a word like singer comes out as 'sinGa so wing sounds like winGa.

In karate we use the word 'Hajime', most often it's pronounced 'jimmy' or 'hammy' which are about as far as you can get from the correct pronunciation as you can get, simply because different people with different dialects say it the way they talk. My husband never says water as I do he calls it 'watter' rhyming with matter, it's Yorkshire dialect, it's not just pronunciation it's a whole different language, with many words coming from Norse and are still understandable by Norwegians. 




I have a Gurkha friend who says it's exactly the same in Nepal, different areas have different dialects, he spent a long time with the army in Hong Kong so has a good grasp of Cantonese too. He does TKD, his Korean isn't the same as the words I know! Words get mangled, look at the way Americans pronounce English words for example!!  Just look at the word 'buoy' we say 'boy' you say 'booooeeee', well I ask you is it any wonder words in other languages get confused when that's what happens to English words in American! As for aluminium......


----------



## ivanr (Apr 11, 2016)

KPM said:


> Thanks Ivan!  Yes, the different spellings in English is definitely a western thing that we have come up with to distinguish between the two systems since we seldom use the Chinese characters.   And glad to see that you also hear a difference in the pronunciations!
> 
> Here is another example for those that may still be confused, or maybe it will just create more confusion!
> 
> Say the English word "wing."   Now say the English word "when."  Notice a difference?   Now say the made up word "wheng."   That should sound different to you than "wing."  This is the difference I hear between "Wing Chun" and "Weng Chun."



No reason to distinguish between two wing chun systems. Names of Grandmasters is not enough? 
Greetings, ir


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 11, 2016)

ivanr said:


> No reason to distinguish between two wing chun systems. Names of Grandmasters is not enough?
> Greetings, ir



I think you have just won the whole argument!!


----------



## KPM (Apr 11, 2016)

ivanr said:


> No reason to distinguish between two wing chun systems. Names of Grandmasters is not enough?
> Greetings, ir



There are very good reasons to distinguish between the two!   Too often Weng Chun gets lumped with Wing Chun and people assume they are the same thing.  They are not.    I think distinguishing between them with a simple spelling change is a good idea.  Why is that any different than using the two different characters when naming the systems in Chinese?  With your logic here we should just use the same "wing" character in Chinese for both!


----------



## geezer (Apr 11, 2016)

LFJ said:


> Do you pronounce _cling_ with a long E or a short I? That is, like _clean + g _or _clinch - ch + g_?



...er, I say the "_ing"_  in cling with a short I as in pin, thin, bin, etc. Most Anglo folks in Phoenix speak relatively neutral Standard American English. In fact it used to be one of the prime recruitment grounds for call centers for just this reason. Of course now that business has mostly gone overseas. I guess it's even cheaper to coach South Asians to speak with an American accent than to pay even the lousy wages we earn in Arizona.

Interestingly, a while back listening to NPR, I heard that call centers in India have taken to coaching their employees to speak with a sort of generic _Southern_ (American) accent since it's easy to learn and tends to mask the South Asian accent to most American ears.


----------



## geezer (Apr 11, 2016)

I don't really care about the spellings people choose, but it seems that they really are two different systems that apparently shared and borrowed some things way back. 
This in not just a matter of a divergent lineage during the last century, but a case of the two systems being distinct since they emerged or at least as far back as we can trace them reliably, say to around the mid 19th Century or so? So it _would_ be useful to denote this somehow in the Romanization of their names, just as it is apparent in the differences between the characters for "Wing" and Weng".

On the other hand, insiders will already know which is which when you state your lineage, and those outside the martial arts, such as my dad, will still refer to what we do as "that karate stuff"!


----------



## Argus (Apr 11, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> You should hear the Japanese commands as spoken by people with British regional accents, we've had Japanese nationals totally bemused before now.



I have to say, if I were to pick two combinations resulting in "the most humorous mispronunciation of a foreign word in one language by a native speaker of the another," it would be British English -> Japanese, hands down. I generally try not to laugh or judge, because it's not to be expected that one would know how to pronounce a word in another language, and any attempt is commendable, but I can't help but chuckle when I hear a British accent applied to Japanese words, if I can make out the word to begin with.

Now, the strange/difficult thing is to hear someone speaking who is in the process of learning the language, and far enough along to have a decent vocabulary and speak coherently, but who still retains a very strong accent. We've all experienced this in our native language, but experiencing it in your second or third language is interesting; I've heard people speaking Japanese with a very strong American, British, Chinese, German, and Spanish accents, among others. The strange thing is that, when it's strong, it can be very hard to understand, even if you're familiar with that accent (ie, American, or British), if you mostly only listen to native speakers. It also brings up some interesting questions about accents, and why some people retain them and others don't. Some people quickly adopt a very natural, fairly native accent by the time they reach a basic level of fluency, whereas others retain a thick accent even after living in a country for many years, and gaining a similar level of proficiency. I guess some people are more just more or less fluid in reforming certain habits?

That ability to recognize, and readily reform habits is, in my opinion, a very important skill in language learning as well as martial arts.


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 11, 2016)

Argus said:


> I have to say, if I were to pick two combinations resulting in "the most humorous mispronunciation of a foreign word in one language by a native speaker of the another," it would be British English -> Japanese, hands down. I generally try not to laugh or judge, because it's not to be expected that one would know how to pronounce a word in another language, and any attempt is commendable, but I can't help but chuckle when I hear a British accent applied to Japanese words, if I can make out the word to begin with.



You do also have to take into account the British antipathy to foreign languages, if not downright hatred lol. Pronouncing foreign words in a way that makes them English is an art form many practice here. Just listening to a British chap say 'Avez vous' is hugely amusing especially when you see the said chap has the idea that he, being British, is naturally saying it properly and the French are not. Foreigners really aren't playing cricket when they insist on speaking strange languages.


----------



## geezer (Apr 11, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> You do also have to take into account the British antipathy to foreign languages, if not downright hatred lol. Pronouncing foreign words in a way that makes them English is an art form many practice here. Just listening to a British chap say 'Avez vous' is hugely amusing especially when you see the said chap has the idea that he, being British, is naturally saying it properly and the French are not. Foreigners really aren't playing cricket when they insist on speaking strange languages.



Hmmm. Most Yanks are the same way. Probably inherited the trait from the mother-country. i.e. _you guys_. You should hear the average anglo-Texan speak Spanish. Some are fairly fluent but they still sound just like cowboys or country singers!

I, on the other hand, worked really hard on my Mexican Spanish accent. And my Mexican friends tell me I do a pretty decent job. Unfortunately I get into a lot of trouble since I'm not fluent enough to back it up. People will hear my accent then start talking to me at a mile a minute assuming (mistakenly) that I will understand!


----------



## KPM (Apr 11, 2016)

You know, I've been around a LOT of Spanish speakers in my life.  Very few of them spoke English without an Hispanic accent.  So I always wondered why they felt the need to correct my Spanish pronunciation for the few things I am able to say!


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 11, 2016)

geezer said:


> I, on the other hand, worked really hard on my Mexican Spanish accent. And my Mexican friends tell me I do a pretty decent job. Unfortunately I get into a lot of trouble since I'm not fluent enough to back it up. People will hear my accent then start talking to me at a mile a minute assuming (mistakenly) that I will understand!



I was watching the pro cycling Tour of the Basque country last week, and I learnt that Spanish is an emotive subject in Spain and what we know as Spanish is actually Castilian. It sounded a very complicated subject tied up with various people's independence movements, not just the Basques which is similar to the situation we have in the UK with Welsh, Manx, Cornish, the Gaelic and the Irish Gaelic languages.


----------



## ivanr (Apr 11, 2016)

KPM said:


> There are very good reasons to distinguish between the two!   Too often Weng Chun gets lumped with Wing Chun and people assume they are the same thing.  They are not.    I think distinguishing between them with a simple spelling change is a good idea.  Why is that any different than using the two different characters when naming the systems in Chinese?  With your logic here we should just use the same "wing" character in Chinese for both!



Hi again,
aha...
Anyone want piece of cake, right? Good,  no problem for me. You are living different dream then me (and my fatsanese friends here)... 
Greetings from China,
ir


----------



## ivanr (Apr 11, 2016)

PS- actualy i wanted to share my whole point of view, but i am tiping all messages on my mob phone, so i am sorry, that is not easy... Will try it later from some computer. Just little note, some here really use same character for both. Tang Suens grandstudents. Right now siting on the same table with me. And for them is our debate realy funy. But we like, right?


----------



## LFJ (Apr 12, 2016)

geezer said:


> ...er, I say the "_ing"_  in cling with a short I as in pin, thin, bin, etc. Most Anglo folks in Phoenix speak relatively neutral Standard American English.



Really? And you say cling like that? I don't think that's neutral SAE. Sounds very strange to me. All words ending in -ing are pronounced with a long < e > as in sing where I'm from; Midwest, non-regional accent. General American usually refers to relatively unmarked speech from the Midwest.


----------



## KPM (Apr 12, 2016)

ivanr said:


> PS- actualy i wanted to share my whole point of view, but i am tiping all messages on my mob phone, so i am sorry, that is not easy... Will try it later from some computer. Just little note, some here really use same character for both. Tang Suens grandstudents. Right now siting on the same table with me. And for them is our debate realy funy. But we like, right?



Looking forward to your reply Ivan!   Which Tang Suen grandstudents are you with?  I know at least one Tang Suen grandstudent....my Sifu Michael Tang....who also uses the "Weng Chun" spelling in English and is the one that pointed out to me the pronunciation differences.   He also thinks that the  永 character was likely the original name for both systems and it was changed later.


----------



## geezer (Apr 12, 2016)

LFJ said:


> Really? And you say cling like that? I don't think that's neutral SAE. Sounds very strange to me. All words ending in -ing are pronounced with a long < e > as in sing where I'm from; Midwest, non-regional accent. General American usually refers to relatively unmarked speech from the Midwest.



My pronunciation is probably pretty close to the US version on the audio below:

cling Pronunciation in English

The UK version sounds more like a long e to me.

BTW there are a lot of funny accents in parts of the Midwest. Once the home of "General American English" (and where a lot of the folks who settled the Southwest came from) but now it's the site of some weird developments, like that Northern Cities Vowel Shift. I don't get that at all!

Midwestern accent - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## LFJ (Apr 13, 2016)

Yeah, that's why I said non-regional. There are indeed some regional accents in the Midwest around the Great Lakes, and they all sound funny to me too. Nasally.


----------



## ivanr (Apr 13, 2016)

hi KPM,
tryed to send you private message, but it is not working here, no idea why. I am sorry, i am not giving any more any names to anyone after bad experience with some individums from germany, who always ask for informations and contacts and then are doing **** here, etc. My friends are students of Pak Cheung and Taam Hou Chuen (my sigung) and one siu lam wing chun family from Qingyuan and Saichiu. It is nothing personaly against you, please do not take it like that.


----------



## ivanr (Apr 14, 2016)

ivanr said:


> I am sorry, i am not giving any more any names to anyone after bad experience with some individums from germany, who always ask for informations and contacts and then are doing **** here, etc..



ps - deleted by editing, sorry, should be  - here and back in europe, etc...

that is my tiping on mobile phone :-(


----------

