# taiji in self-defense?



## ggg214 (May 2, 2008)

these days, i am watching "human weapon", which is a programm to introduce us different MAs in the world.
most of them are tested in a fight. some of them are used for  survival,such as Krav Maga. in Krav Maga, it shows us how to defense when facing a knife killer, or in the situation of being surrounded by many persons.

there brings me a Q: how to use taiji in this situation of being attacked by a kinfe or other weapons? does anyone feel the usage of taiji in real fighting?

as i know, the popular taiji application is push-hands. although there are many competitions in push hands, we should admit that it's far from real fight. 

what's your opinions? i am looking forward to your replys!


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## pete (May 2, 2008)

a good weapon usage within push hands is to arm one participant with a knife, and the other to prevent or respond to his actions of drawing the knife. could then move on to arming both with knives... 

once the knife is drawn and able to be used, distance becomes your friend so push hands format is abandoned for more of a 'sparring' type activity.

pete


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## RealTaiji (May 2, 2008)

Soft Push Hands is not a way to gain self-defense. If it's done with proper attitude, it's a way to reduce fear reactions. But the push-the-guy-away bit is just silly; it's an expensive way to pretend self-defense.

Combat Push Hands can develop the reflexive power, a twitch if you will, that allows a body to react to violence quickly and violently. Sparring is too linear, and preventing a knife from being withdrawn is not possible on me. I can always pull it back.

We must clobber an attacker, and, realistically, risk getting cut. One cut I might survive. And an attack-first attitude might get 'em. Attack right when he draws the knife. Phoom!

Better yet, in knife country, carry a weapon. A durable hat, an umbrella, maybe a shopping cart will do.


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## pete (May 2, 2008)

RealTaiji said:
			
		

> Combat Push Hands can develop the reflexive power, a twitch if you will, that allows a body to react to violence quickly and violently. Sparring is too linear, and preventing a knife from being withdrawn is not possible on me. I can always pull it back.


 Only a Sith speaks in absolutes... if you think 'sparring is too linear', that tells me something of your experience, try sparring with bagua guys. If you think preventing the knife to be drawn is not possible on you, try pushing with opponents that have better sticking skills. 

you may be good... hell, you may be great at what you do, but you know what they say about any given sunday...

pete.


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## Quotheraving (May 2, 2008)

RealTaiji said:


> Soft Push Hands is not a way to gain self-defense. If it's done with proper attitude, it's a way to reduce fear reactions. But the push-the-guy-away bit is just silly; it's an expensive way to pretend self-defense.


Yeah Yang lu chan developed this purely to amuse himself in his spare time, it actually has no practical combat applications and was adopted by numerous other martial arts because they found it equally entertaining.

[Sarcasm mode off]


~Including Silat, a martial art which places a heavy emphasis on knife fighting techniques and is rooted in a culture where knife fights are common and hence practicality is essential.
In that art Push hands techniques are frequently adopted and adapted to develop the sticking and listening skills that are needed in real knife combat.
As seen here:


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## Myrmidon (May 2, 2008)

*Here are some kerambit techniques from Filipino Kali:*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2O6MchAeAkc&feature


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## ggg214 (May 3, 2008)

Quotheraving said:


> In that art Push hands techniques are frequently adopted and adapted to develop the sticking and listening skills that are needed in real knife combat.
> As seen here:


 
maybe it's the way of using the taiji skill. but it seems unrealistic


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## RealTaiji (May 3, 2008)

Quotheraving said:


> Yeah Yang lu chan developed this purely to amuse himself in his spare time, it actually has no practical combat applications and was adopted by numerous other martial arts because they found it equally entertaining.
> [Sarcasm mode off]
> ~Including Silat, a martial art which places a heavy emphasis on knife fighting techniques and is rooted in a culture where knife fights are common and hence practicality is essential.
> In that art Push hands techniques are frequently adopted and adapted to develop the sticking and listening skills that are needed in real knife combat.
> As seen here:



Well sarcasm or not, I agree with you.... 



pete said:


> Only a Sith speaks in absolutes...



though push hands is a bit toned down from Lu chan's day. It might (maybe) have been a bit more striky instead of pushy.

Some push hands players and possibly some teaching methods mutate push hands away from sticking and listening, too; getting all caught up in pushing people (lots of that on YourTube). That's the bit I don't like very much (but I like it a little). The folks in the shows moved their feet for example: that's good.

People who get good at sticking and listening also might gain a tendency to believe that that alone makes good fighting. But we know better; we know it's a component of combat and/or a little portion of self-defense.

One can, of course, be sticky and listening while striking.

I like the clips you posted.


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## Quotheraving (May 7, 2008)

RealTaiji said:


> though push hands is a bit toned down from Lu chan's day. It might (maybe) have been a bit more striky instead of pushy.


A previous teacher of mine explained this (approximately, as my memory isn't great) as follows: 
"Each push can equally well be a strike and vice versa, so the elbow stroke in Da lu can also be used as an uprooting move. 
What we're doing with the pushes is getting the range, root and structure, as well as storing and releasing energy correct and repeating it till it becomes instinct. Once the foundation is solid the choice of whether to strike or not is up to you... not in class though, as I don't want you injured and unable to come to practice next week... with all that lovely money."

I personally feel that fights are won by removing the opponents desire to fight rather than removing their teeth.


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## Xue Sheng (May 7, 2008)

RealTaiji said:


> though push hands is a bit toned down from Lu chan's day. It might (maybe) have been a bit more striky instead of pushy.


 
You have obviously never done push hands with my sifu.

And if you had done push hands with my sifu you would also know that striking is not necessarily all that important. 

Kick, punch, redirect, uproot, throw to ground, Qinna, to name a few, are all part of it as well as is staying incredibly relaxed while doing all this. And since he is only 1 person removed form Yang Chengfu how toned down is it really since Yang Luchan?


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## ggg214 (May 7, 2008)

Quotheraving said:


> A previous teacher of mine explained this (approximately, as my memory isn't great) as follows:
> "Each push can equally well be a strike and vice versa, so the elbow stroke in Da lu can also be used as an uprooting move.
> What we're doing with the pushes is getting the range, root and structure, as well as storing and releasing energy correct and repeating it till it becomes instinct. Once the foundation is solid the choice of whether to strike or not is up to you... not in class though, as I don't want you injured and unable to come to practice next week... with all that lovely money."


 

thanks for your good explanation.
i agree with you. recently i am reading a net novel about Wu Xia. in the novel, when the leading role asked each candidates for deciding which one was qualified to be his sifu, one told him that i would not teach you any skill of fighting, but i would train you every part of body, in order to build your whole body in best condition to fight.
back to this topic, taiji may lack some pounch or kicking skills, but it will build a best body structure for you, then any skills is suitable for you to fight.


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## kwaichang (May 8, 2008)

ggg214 said:


> these days, i am watching "human weapon", which is a programm to introduce us different MAs in the world.
> most of them are tested in a fight.


 
There you go.  It's TV!!  Basically IMO, it's to show you what's out there.  I NEVER think those fight tests are really going to show that these guys, in just a few days, beat out the champions that they face.  At least their show is better than the one a few years ago with the woman.


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## ggg214 (May 8, 2008)

sure, at last they all use their familiar fighting style to defend or attack.
it's more like to test whether the style introduced in tv can fight or not.


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## Formosa Neijia (May 14, 2008)

ggg214 said:


> there brings me a Q: how to use taiji in this situation of being attacked by a kinfe or other weapons? does anyone feel the usage of taiji in real fighting?
> 
> as i know, the popular taiji application is push-hands. although there are many competitions in push hands, we should admit that it's far from real fight.



I'm not quite sure what you're asking.

Taiji doesn't specialize in knife defenses. Usually knife arts are best for defending against knives because they take the blade seriously and know it's capabilities and weaknesses. Silat and Filipino arts are best for that although that will be hard to find where you are (China).

Push hands isn't taiji application, but taiji applications can be worked in push hands if the teacher allows that. No it's not a "fight" but then BJJ and UFC  matches aren't either. They're all sport competitions and need to be viewed that way. 

Push hands is used to train certain skills and if you throw everything in to mimic "fighting," especially at first, then you'll likely never get what push hands is trying to teach you.

I would take it one step at a time.


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## Bodhisattva (May 15, 2008)

ggg214 said:


> these days, i am watching "human weapon", which is a programm to introduce us different MAs in the world.
> most of them are tested in a fight. some of them are used for  survival,such as Krav Maga. in Krav Maga, it shows us how to defense when facing a knife killer, or in the situation of being surrounded by many persons.
> 
> there brings me a Q: how to use taiji in this situation of being attacked by a kinfe or other weapons? does anyone feel the usage of taiji in real fighting?
> ...



I would not use tai chi for self defense, personally speaking.  Just my opinion, however.


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## pete (May 15, 2008)

Bodhisattva said:
			
		

> I would not use tai chi for self defense, personally speaking. Just my opinion, however.


 you are likely correct. one does not magically rise to the occasion, rather one sinks to the level of their training.  

if you have not trained to use tai chi for self defense, you will not have confidence that it will save your ***, and under duress you will choose to do something else. probably something that you have trained at a higher level and have more confidence in it doing the job.  

using that logic, i can only agree with your opinion of what you personally would do. however, do not presume that others haven't developed their tai chi to be quite effective defending themselves.  personally, i do not think i can separate my tai chi from what i would do, it's all one.

pete


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## kwaichang (May 16, 2008)

For the few years I studied Yang Style, I was fortunate to have an instructor that, after you got the 28 forms (or so) down into the flowing movement everyone is familiar with, showed how each part could be used in self defense.  He also explained that as your body and nerves are familiar with those moves they'd come more naturally in an attack situation.


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## Xue Sheng (May 16, 2008)

From Wu Zhiqing a student of Yang Chengfu



> Taijiquan is not a mysterious and bizarre magical art; neither is it the shallow skill of the body guards and street performers. Rather, it is a natural self-defense, exercise, and health system that arises from the natural world - Wu Zhiqing


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## Nebuchadnezzar (May 16, 2008)

Bodhisattva said:


> I would not use tai chi for self defense, personally speaking. Just my opinion, however.


 
Simple one word question:

*Why?*


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## Laoshi77 (Jun 25, 2008)

Bodhisattva said:


> I would not use tai chi for self defense, personally speaking. Just my opinion, however.


 
I have used Taijiquan when I needed to protect myself, it is what comes natural to me and is not forced therefore making movement and technique effortless. 
'Bodhisattva', I understand where you are coming from but can only presume you have never learned real Taijiquan with a good teacher; self defense is a fundamental aspect of learning this martial art.

From my experience of many different arts Taijiquan skill is more powerful than anything I've ever seen!


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## ChingChuan (Jun 25, 2008)

I'm not a tai chi practioner, but I'd like to add to this topic...

I practise Pencak Silat (the indonesion martial art) and a lot of Tai Chi movements look really similar to my art. As Pencak Silat is an excellent art for self-defence (as most martial arts are), I think that the same goes for Tai Chi...

However, like some others have said, you shouldn't try to use it for self-defence when you've never trained tai chi for that purpose.


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## Phadrus00 (Jun 25, 2008)

Some excellent points have been made here about using what we are most confident and comfortable with in a self-defence situation when the pressure is on.  I don't believe that in those situations we "consciously" select what we use, we simply react and we will react with whatever is the most familiar and most reinforced to our muscles.

I teach Tai Chi in our school along with the Filipino Martial Arts and Silat.  Knife defences I clearly draw from FMA and Silat and many takedowns I rely on Silat finishes but I have notices that my Tai Chi practice influences my entries and ability to "bend" around a technique and then dive into a solid stance.

I teach self-defence applicaitons as part of my Tai Chi curriculum because I think it makes it much easier to understand the movements within that context.  I would not necessarily use those technques "as is" but rather I feel that Tai Chi practice enhances my footwork and balance and increases the effectivness of my other arts.  That is not to say I would not use "Part Wild Horses Mane" to break someones elbow and throw them back if the opportunity arose it's just that I would likely move towards more Silat or FMA based techniques because I tend to train those more with partners and find them very effective and direct.  I truly do beleive however that my power and stanve are enahnced by practising Tai Chi and that makes all my arts more effective and useful.

Rob


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## pete (Jun 26, 2008)

Phadrus00, 

   I applaud you for learning Tai Chi Chuan and using it as a cross-reference to enhance your FMA. I have students that come to learn Tai Chi Chuan with advanced rankings and experience is several other martial styles and enjoy seeing this each week.

   One thing that you would eventually find different with Tai Chi Chuan as an internal martial art, is the mental training to utilize the fully conscious mind in stressful situations, such as a physical attack.  rather than the 'react' nature of external arts, where you may train to react to a trigger with a series of pre-programmed reflexive actions... the internal arts, tai chi included, trains one to develop sensitivity and respond initially by manifesting the art's core principles physically, while maintaining a calm awareness to react to changes as they occur and utilize your thinking mind.  

  This is why meditation and sensitivity exercises, such as pushing hands and rou shou, are so important to the internal arts training.  And by carrying the lessons of meditation and sensitivities drills, in addition to the form and qigong, up into more spontaneous and challenging activities like sparring, self-defense applications, and weaponry, will prepare one to utilize Tai Chi Chuan if and when needed in a life situation.

Pete


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## Phadrus00 (Jun 26, 2008)

pete said:


> One thing that you would eventually find different with Tai Chi Chuan as an internal martial art, is the mental training to utilize the fully conscious mind in stressful situations, such as a physical attack. rather than the 'react' nature of external arts, where you may train to react to a trigger with a series of pre-programmed reflexive actions... the internal arts, tai chi included, trains one to develop sensitivity and respond initially by manifesting the art's core principles physically, while maintaining a calm awareness to react to changes as they occur and utilize your thinking mind.
> 
> This is why meditation and sensitivity exercises, such as pushing hands and rou shou, are so important to the internal arts training. And by carrying the lessons of meditation and sensitivities drills, in addition to the form and qigong, up into more spontaneous and challenging activities like sparring, self-defense applications, and weaponry, will prepare one to utilize Tai Chi Chuan if and when needed in a life situation.
> 
> Pete


 
Pete,

Thank you for this wonderful advice.  I admit that I am approaching Tai Chi from a very "external" perspective and this insight is profound.  I have not been pursuing Chi Kung and meditation as actively as I should and have been changing my curriculum to address this challenge.  Your advice inspires me to redouble my efforts.

Thanks so much!

Rob


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## DaPoets (Jun 26, 2008)

A friend of mine for fun charged me from straight on with a playful punch to the face and I found myself without thinking doing a repulse monkey and then grabing his arm while I did a step up and raise hands move.  It completely threw him off balance.  I found that this truly amazed me since in TTCS we do not teach or even practice the combatitive aspect of taijiquan.

Tai Chi is very powerful when it is a part of who you are.


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## kwaichang (Jun 26, 2008)

DaPoets said:


> found that this truly amazed me since in TTCS we do not teach or even practice the combatitive aspect of taijiquan.
> 
> Tai Chi is very powerful when it is a part of who you are.


 
and thus my post #17


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## Ninebird8 (Jul 2, 2008)

If you have ever trained with my tai chi Sifu, Jeff Bolt, or his master, Dr. Yang Jwing Ming, you would see the effectiveness of tai chi and especially tai chi chin na in fighting. I have trained in gung fu and Yang tai chi for over 30 years and have found tai chi to be an effective art by using fa jing, foot movement, push hands for sensitivity, and then tai chi chin na and/or plucking (a form of tai chi grabbing/locking) to neutralize an opponent. Also, the internal strikes of tai chi through a palm strike to an internal organ while sinking and rooting, or a front kick using "play guitar" where an opponent is pulled in by two locking hands while executing a front kick with jing to a vital point in the sternum, the arm pit, the tan tien, the femoral artery, or vital joints, is also effective. Combined with kung fu techniques, tai chi in general (also ba gua and hsing i in similar fashion) surrounds, controls, and neutralizes the opponent. As in kung fu taught these days, *a critical missing element of effective tai chi fighting, or actually fighting in general, is the use of good footwork to position oneself vis a vis the opponent and set up attacks/defenses through appropriate angular positioning. *Whether walking the circle in ba gua or using effective moving push hand foot movement, any of the 5 main styles of tai chi are effective. In combo with a good Northern or Southern art, it helps meld the internal and external into one expression of whipping power, aka fajing application. I have found in many fighting instances, whether real or sparring in class, that eventually the blocking/pushing/punching etc are merely technique that must be, through practice, converted to a natural reaction to any stimuli brought forth by the opponent. Push hands is merely a way to develop sensitivity to a person's chi/movements/intention, while redirecting for effective punches, kicks, chin na, or redirecting to a more advantageous position. This is my two cents worth from my experience. Besides, in the old days many members of both the Chen and the Yang families would take on both kung fu and foreign practitioners in either combat or friendly matches and usually prevail. Must have something to it...LOL, or as one of my three masters use to say, "do not pick on anyone over 60 moving slowly and grinning for no reason!" Of course, that could mean he is senile!!


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## kwaichang (Jul 3, 2008)

Ninebird8 said:


> in the old days many members of both the Chen and the Yang families would take on both kung fu and foreign practitioners in either combat or friendly matches and usually prevail. Must have something to it...LOL, or as one of my three masters use to say, "do not pick on anyone over 60 moving slowly and grinning for no reason!" Of course, that could mean he is senile!!


 
Well said and  so true.:uhyeah:


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 3, 2008)

Ninebird8 said:


> "do not pick on anyone over 60 moving slowly and grinning for no reason!" Of course, that could mean he is senile!!


 
My Yang Taiji sifu is in his 70s and you couldn't pay me enough to challenge him to a fight


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