# Vegan musclebuilding?  Is it possible?



## FrontKick-Jab-Punch

Hi, all -

I have a question I don't know if you'll have the answer to, but there seems to be an impressively wide array of expertise on here, so I'll try.

First let me preface this by saying that I'll trust that you're an "expert" on this if you either a) have a degree in nutrition/exercise science/a related field, b) are a medical doctor, or c) have spent many years doing research on the subject.  "I'm very fit myself!" or even "I'm a personal trainer!" doesn't qualify as expertise for me on this one, because the issue is controversial, I'm in good shape myself, and I've already done a good deal of my own research (I'm a researcher!).   So what I'm literally looking for is someone who has more expertise than I do, or more than I can find via a fairly competent search of peer-reviewed publications on the matter.  That isn't to say your comments aren't very welcome and of interest!  Just that I might not consider your opinion "expert."  I mean, I don't consider _my_ opinion "expert" on this topic, so hopefully that won't offend you. =)

Ok.  With all that out of the way: I'm a pescatarian who is moving more and more towards a completely plant-based diet (largely for health reasons; the pescatarianism more or less covers my moral reasons for avoiding eating animals).  But I also run triathlons, lift weights 2-3 times a week, and - obviously - practice the martial arts regularly.  I've heard so frequently that we need to consume some ungodly amount of protein each day to build and retain muscle mass (it varies, but I mostly hear something like 1 - 1.5 time my body weight in grams) that I worry about getting this much protein simply from plants, soy, and legumes.  On the other hand, I've also read about elite athletes (e.g., winning marathoners/triathletes) who clearly put out extremely high levels of performance and are fairly muscular but who eat vegan diets; they say Americans overestimate the amount of protein we actually need and that we get all that's required from grains, legumes, and vegetables.

So.  What is UP WITH THAT?  Who am I to believe and what ought I do?  Can I maintain my current muscle mass if I drop to a completely vegan diet?  Can I ADD to my muscle mass with a completely vegan diet?  Is whey powder - a dairy product, right? - bad for me if I'm trying to eat vegan?  Do we really need to eat our bodyweight in grams of protein or is that an exaggeration?  I'm interested in all of your thoughts and personal anecdotes - and expecially your expert opinions if you're out there.

Thanks in advance... this is a tricky one.

FKJP =)


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## Steve

So, according to you, I'm not qualified to participate in this thread.  So I won't, other than to say that it is possible.  I know many, many people who are strict vegan, athletes.  

Good luck with your research.  

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## FrontKick-Jab-Punch

See now, Steve...?  There's no reason to be all hurt and sulky.  That's why I said that - and I quote - "I'm interested in all of your thoughts and personal anecdotes" and that the fact that I was hoping for an expert wasn't to say that "your comments aren't very welcome and of interest!"  

Anyone who likes is qualified to "participate."  It might lead to a very interesting discussion.  Just that the one with the "answers" ought to be an expert.  Isn't that how most things are in life? ; )

FKJP


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## Steve

FrontKick-Jab-Punch said:


> See now, Steve...?  There's no reason to be all hurt and sulky.  That's why I said that - and I quote - "I'm interested in all of your thoughts and personal anecdotes" and that the fact that I was hoping for an expert wasn't to say that "your comments aren't very welcome and of interest!"
> 
> Anyone who likes is qualified to "participate."  It might lead to a very interesting discussion.  Just that the one with the "answers" ought to be an expert.  Isn't that how most things are in life? ; )
> 
> FKJP



Not hurt nor sulky.  You were pretty clear.  I'm not an expert on the subject, and frankly, I wonder what you're really looking for.  There is plenty of information readily available, including several examples of elite level athletes who are vegan.   

Are you looking for information on nutritional needs of athletes?  Are you unaware of the many sources of protein available on a plant based diet?  While you went to pains to describe whom you didn't want to hear from, you weren't very clear what you're actually looking for.  

If its simply whether it is possible, the answer is yes, as I said before.  I know many.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## Xue Sheng

UFC Fighter Mac Danzig is a Vegan

Vegan Athletes


And there is Rip Esselstyn of Engine 2


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## elder999

I'm a doctor-I have PhD.......in _physics_. :lfao: However, I offer one of my teachers, Joseph Greenstein, the Mighty Atom, 5'2", less than 150 lbs., vaudeville strong man and strict vegetarian who practiced all his feats of strength into his 80's          



 



 he wasn't an expert, either.. :lfao:..you can read more about him, and his numerous, mind boggling feats of strength, here                                                        And, of course, there's Mac Danzig, elite MMA fighter, and vegan.....no expert, though...:lfao:...and Jack LaLanne, TV strongman, who performed remarkable feats of strength into his old age, and was a lifelong vegetarian-and quite muscular......no expert, though....:lfao:....oh, and let's not forget Andreas Cahling, whose competitive bodybuilding years were spent as a frugiterian, but who now is a vegetarian.....not an expert, though....View attachment $Bodybuilder-Nordique-Andreas-Cahling-Champion-des-annees-80.jpgof course, he's like 60 something, now:



 not an expert, though.....:lfao:....what was the question again? :lfao:


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## FrontKick-Jab-Punch

Steve said:


> ...frankly, I wonder what you're really looking for.  There is plenty of information readily available... Are you unaware of the many sources of protein available on a plant based diet?  While you went to pains to describe whom you didn't want to hear from, you weren't very clear what you're actually looking for.



Mm.  Sulky, and now condescending and insulting.  I'm sure your ego is very tied into whether or not you're winning points with me - but just for the record, you're not.

I think it's pretty SOP to prefer information from experts.  That is, we may watch a self-defense video or two on YouTube, but if we really want to learn, we look for an expert instructor.  But, you know, if you'd prefer to read some random person's blog on the treatment a burning rash to a diagnosis and prescription from a physician, well, it's a free country.  

Since this post was supposed to be about the difficulties of building muscle on a vegan diet and not about the way I unfairly ask questions that you feel qualified to answer but I'm clearly too blind to appreciate even after "re-welcoming" your input, I'm going to go ahead and not pay attention to your further remarks on this.  But maybe I'll ask something later you're an expert on and you can show me a thing or two then.

Stupidly and unclearly yours,

FKJP, PhD =)


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## FrontKick-Jab-Punch

Ah, Elder999 - this is fun stuff.  I'm glad I can provide such rich amusement.

A) Thank you, these were interesting videos.  You knew this guy?  The top one, I mean.  He looks out of your generation, but I don't know how old you are.
B) Personal experience is a wonderful way of understanding the world.  But there is lots of information out there on how just because a person experiences something doesn't mean that it's actually true, or that it's helpful to others.  For example, some people think they've had personal experience with aliens.  That doesn't mean we ought to consider them experts in astronomy.  Also, people have lived well into their 90s smoking multiple packs of cigarettes daily and eating a high-fat, high cholesterol diet.  But the plural of anecdote isn't data, and there are always outliers.  
C) I apologize if my question wasn't clear enough.  Apparently it's baffling everyone.  To the degree that I wasn't certain it was possible, you've demonstrated that it is - at least, assuming these people are all vegans as you say they are (not that I doubt you particularly, but it's always best to check.  I'm quite gullible).  More useful, however, is what kinds of foods and what amounts of protein are actually required (I believe I mentioned this) to produce results such as these (or not even such as these!  I'm not necessarily looking to bend nails with my teeth).

The sad thing is that until I saw that Grumpy Steve had "thanked" you for your post, and until I had a second to see that the smileys were all laughing hysterically at me, and until I caught the purposeful reiteration of "not an expert"... I thought you were sincerely trying to help me.  Like I said, gullible.  You got me - good one.

I'm learning that people don't like to feel they're being excluded from conversations for not being experts.  Sorry, we aren't all experts at everything.  I very much respect your PhD in physics.  I have one in Statistics.  But I wouldn't presume to give advice on breakdancing.  Not an expert.  For sure.  

I'm sure you and Sulky Steve wouln't mind if your karate students (assuming you have them? I don't know if you're instructors or just practitioners) turned away from you and asked instead some guy on the street instead how to stop an attacker from grabbing them.  I mean, he looks tough and has lots of muscles and has gotten into (and survived) some street brawls!  So I think he knows as well as you do how to divert an attack.  Yeah?

I apologize for seeking expertise from non-experts who imagine themselves to be experts.  Or comedians.

Peace out.


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## jks9199

Here's where I see the problem...   You've defined who you feel is qualified to answer your question so narrowly that you've ended up alienating a lot of people who just might know something.  I'm not a vegan, I'm not a trainer, nor am I a nutritionist...  but that doesn't mean I don't have information that might help you.  (Like maybe I know a vegan bodybuilder...)  But you have sent the message quite clearly that you don't want to hear that.  No matter how relevant.

I notice that you haven't really responded to Steve's question: What are you really looking for with this question?  Are you seeking guidance on vegan diets that supply enough protein for building muscle?  Medical information about how much protein you really require to build muscle or strength (by the way, the two are not the same thing...)?  

And -- a word to the wise -- childish name-calling doesn't really help your cause.  It just might even be a violation of the Terms of Service...


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## SahBumNimRush

http://www.mikemahler.com

http://www.veganbodybuilding.org/mikemahler.htm

Read this guy's stuff.  He is a CSCS and really knows his stuff.  While quality and quantity of food is important, hormone optimization is the key here.  Look on the first link for his hormone optimization information.


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## Steve

FrontKick-Jab-Punch said:


> Mm.  Sulky, and now condescending and insulting.  I'm sure your ego is very tied into whether or not you're winning points with me - but just for the record, you're not.
> 
> I think it's pretty SOP to prefer information from experts.  That is, we may watch a self-defense video or two on YouTube, but if we really want to learn, we look for an expert instructor.  But, you know, if you'd prefer to read some random person's blog on the treatment a burning rash to a diagnosis and prescription from a physician, well, it's a free country.
> 
> Since this post was supposed to be about the difficulties of building muscle on a vegan diet and not about the way I unfairly ask questions that you feel qualified to answer but I'm clearly too blind to appreciate even after "re-welcoming" your input, I'm going to go ahead and not pay attention to your further remarks on this.  But maybe I'll ask something later you're an expert on and you can show me a thing or two then.
> 
> Stupidly and unclearly yours,
> 
> FKJP, PhD =)


Let me get this straight.  You've called me sulky and grumpy and a few other things now... and you think I'm the one being condescending and insulting?  It's clear that you're a little defensive, and I'm getting the impression that the thread isn't going the way you expected.  So far, you're blaming me for that.  Consider taking a little of the responsibility for it, yourself.  

A good start would be to explain what you're really looking for.  I asked before and you felt condescended and chose not to answer.  I am interested in the subject, and as I said before, I know a lot of people who are vegan athletes and my diet is mostly plant based.  If you would get over yourself a little bit, this thread could be salvaged.  It's a good topic.


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## FrontKick-Jab-Punch

jks9199 said:


> Here's where I see the problem...   You've defined who you feel is qualified to answer your question so narrowly that you've ended up alienating a lot of people who just might know something.  I'm not a vegan, I'm not a trainer, nor am I a nutritionist...  but that doesn't mean I don't have information that might help you.  (Like maybe I know a vegan bodybuilder...)  But you have sent the message quite clearly that you don't want to hear that.  No matter how relevant.



Oh - whoops!  I guess you didn't catch the part where I wrote that I was interested in everyone's opinions and experiences and that all comments were welcome?  And - oops!  I guess you also didn't read the part where - after Steve told me he wasn't going to tell me anything because he wasn't "expert" enough - I *reiterated *that?  It's okay, apology accepted.  The only thing I actually said was that I wouldn't "consider someone an expert" on diet and nutrition unless they were - call me crazy - an expert on diet and nutrition.  I'm absolutely stunned that people's egos are so huge here that some stranger not considering them an expert in his head is enough to make them this pissy.  I think it's literally that that is creating such an issue - the thought that I'm not willing to accept their expertise whether or not they actually have any.  Who cares what I think about your expertise on vegan diets?  Honestly, if someone asked for "expert advice" on rotator cuff tears and was hoping for the opinion of a physical therapist or doctor, I would just reply with "well, I'm certainly not an expert, but..." and give them whatever advice I had without rancor.  Who can blame them for hoping for an expert on the topic? 

No, I haven't answered Steve's question.  He's douchey. 



jks9199 said:


> And -- a word to the wise -- childish name-calling doesn't really help your cause.  It just might even be a violation of the Terms of Service...



So are you, Assistant Administrator (a little douchey, to be very clear).  I've seriously been on here for like a week, I've started a number of thoughtful threads, I even use proper grammar and everything, har har, and I've already seen some pretty unpleasant, egotistic exchanges here that end with "if you don't like it, then fight me" or the kind of know-it-all condescention I've dealt with here.  It's too bad, because a number of people have been very nice to me, and had some good stuff to say.  But I've spent years away from online communities and I forgot something: the way we're forced to talk to one another in the real world due to social conventions doesn't apply here.  I also forgot that I don't care for the wide standard deviation of intelligences and manners to be found here.  So: suspend me for Terms of Service Violation if it makes you feel good and just and assistant administrator-y.  I really imagined martial artists would be a different bunch.

Love and snuggles,

Me.


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## elder999

Ooh, boy............nice knowin' ya, kid.....:lol: (btw, the laughy smileys aren't personal. I really do laugh a lot...:lfao: )


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## Steve

FrontKick-Jab-Punch said:


> Oh - whoops!  I guess you didn't catch the part where I wrote that I was interested in everyone's opinions and experiences and that all comments were welcome?  And - oops!  I guess you also didn't read the part where - after Steve told me he wasn't going to tell me anything because he wasn't "expert" enough - I *reiterated *that?  It's okay, apology accepted.  The only thing I actually said was that I wouldn't "consider someone an expert" on diet and nutrition unless they were - call me crazy - an expert on diet and nutrition.  I'm absolutely stunned that people's egos are so huge here that some stranger not considering them an expert in his head is enough to make them this pissy.  I think it's literally that that is creating such an issue - the thought that I'm not willing to accept their expertise whether or not they actually have any.  Who cares what I think about your expertise on vegan diets?  Honestly, if someone asked for "expert advice" on rotator cuff tears and was hoping for the opinion of a physical therapist or doctor, I would just reply with "well, I'm certainly not an expert, but..." and give them whatever advice I had without rancor.  Who can blame them for hoping for an expert on the topic?
> 
> No, I haven't answered Steve's question.  He's douchey.
> 
> 
> 
> So are you, Assistant Administrator (a little douchey, to be very clear).  I've seriously been on here for like a week, I've started a number of thoughtful threads, I even use proper grammar and everything, har har, and I've already seen some pretty unpleasant, egotistic exchanges here that end with "if you don't like it, then fight me" or the kind of know-it-all condescention I've dealt with here.  It's too bad, because a number of people have been very nice to me, and had some good stuff to say.  But I've spent years away from online communities and I forgot something: the way we're forced to talk to one another in the real world due to social conventions doesn't apply here.  I also forgot that I don't care for the wide standard deviation of intelligences and manners to be found here.  So: suspend me for Terms of Service Violation if it makes you feel good and just and assistant administrator-y.  I really imagined martial artists would be a different bunch.
> 
> Love and snuggles,
> 
> Me.


Honestly, if you'd just chill out a little bit, speak plainly and consider that you might not be the excellent communicator you believe yourself to be, we'd have a good thread about vegan nutrition.  

Now, you're escalating, calling me douchey, calling the mods douchey and generally throwing a great big temper tantrum.  According to your profile, you're a college professor.  Act like it and try posting on topic.

Frankly, you seem like an intelligent, enthusiastic poster.  I'd hate to see you storm off in a huff or get yourself banned for no reason.  But that's the path you've chosen.

Since this is a Martial Arts forum, let's try a martial arts analogy.  You've been at it for a while, I gather.  So, let's say that this isn't online, but is in your college hallway.  You're talking to another professor, and you've said something that clearly doesn't give you the reaction you're looking for.  Do you escalate the situation or attempt to de-escalate the situation?  Do you mock the other professor and call him a douche bag or re-frame your statement in a way that is more clear?  Or do you do something else?  

Point I'm making is that this is your thread.  The thread has gone awry.  You have choices.  Instead of reacting and posting something you could end up regretting, making things worse, take some responsibility for it, consider posting something constructive and on topic, and maybe get some answers to your questions.


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## FrontKick-Jab-Punch

I give up for the day.  Feel free to delete this thread - I would if I knew how.  I need sleep.


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## FrontKick-Jab-Punch

Meh.  Tried explaining myself nicely.  Don't care anymore.  Thanks for trying, though.  Ban away.  I'll find my answers elsewhere.


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## punisher73

I'd have to find it, but MANY years ago Harvard did a study and found that even without food, the body would start to adapt and try and build muscle.  Obviously, it wasn't optimal as if there were building blocks etc.

When it comes to protein and bodybuilders.  They ingest MANY more calories and macronutrients with the theory that we don't know EXACTLY how much our body can actually use to optimize the muscle rebuilding and hypertrophy, so let's give it a lot more than we think it needs to get the job done.  This is also why most pro bodybuilders are very fat in the offseason and then use drugs to shred the excess weight off to come in ripped at contest time.

Which brings me to my next point.  No matter WHAT kind of diet and exercise program you are following, unless you are a genetic elite for building muscle naturally, you will not look like a bodybuilder with that kind of size without synthetic help.  This clouds the issue for many people because they only see physiques that are built on hgh, T replacement and anabolic steroids.  Look at the OLD time strongmen to see what type of physique is possible  to build naturally with great genetics.

Lastly, when it comes to vegan diets many people don't look healthy because they aren't getting a complete amino acid profile.  There are many amino acids and some of them are labeled as "essential".  That means that your body HAS to have them as a complete chain already through your food.  The "non-essential" amino acids, aren't labeled that because they aren't also important, it means that your body can break down those amino acids and restructure them with other amino acids to build the chain it needs.  So for a vegan approach, you need to make sure that your diet spans a wide variety of food sources that will give you all of the amino acids.

Then, just as with regular non-restrictive diet and exercising you need a slight surplus of building materials with which your body can maintain, repair and rebuild to get bigger and stronger.  Vegan dieting is alot harder to build muscle because animal protiens (especially natural beef) have been shown to elevate testosterone levels and creatine levels in the muscles.  Also, many vegans eat alot of soy proteins which have also been shown to elevate estrogen levels in men, which is counter productive to what you want to accomplish.

I'm not a doctor, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night...


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## SahBumNimRush

punisher73 said:


> I'm not a doctor, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night...





:roflmao:  :rofl:


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## Xue Sheng

FrontKick-Jab-Punch

I am not offend nor am I a doctor, I am married to one and come from a medical family and there are a few doctors in it, I did actually start PT school but never finished and was accepted into a Nutritionist program and never went and tried like hell to get to a Rehabilitation Psychology program that I was accepted into but their schedule and mine simply would not match up. but that is not the point of this. And I am not qualified to answer your post based on the following.
Try and read what you wrote with an unbiased eye



FrontKick-Jab-Punch said:


> First let me preface this by saying that I'll trust that you're an "expert" on this if you either a) have a degree in nutrition/exercise science/a related field, b) are a medical doctor, or c) have spent many years doing research on the subject. "I'm very fit myself!" or even "I'm a personal trainer!" doesn't qualify as expertise for me on this one, because the issue is controversial, I'm in good shape myself, and I've already done a good deal of my own research (I'm a researcher!). So what I'm literally looking for is someone who has more expertise than I do, or more than I can find via a fairly competent search of peer-reviewed publications on the matter. That isn't to say your comments aren't very welcome and of interest! Just that I might not consider your opinion "expert." I mean, I don't consider my opinion "expert" on this topic, so hopefully that won't offend you. =)



Can you see why some might be offended or feel it was pointless to answer?



> a) have a degree in nutrition/exercise science/a related field,
> b) are a medical doctor, or
> c) have spent many years doing research on the subject.



I think there was a person on MT at one time that would fit &#8220;a&#8221; and there were a couple that would fit &#8220;b&#8221; but not so sure about &#8220;c&#8221;. But I am not sure anyone from &#8220;b&#8221; would give a whole lot of info to someone they do not know on a webpage.



> So what I'm literally looking for is someone who has more expertise than I do, or more than I can find via a fairly competent search of peer-reviewed publications on the matter.



Again I do not think anyone from &#8220;b&#8221; would answer you on this at all even if they read it, but not being a doctor I could be wrong.

My wife could be found in a per review but I know for a fact she would not answer this and unless you can read Chinese you are not qualified to even read a peer review she will be found in. And frankly she would not answer you because she would not take you seriously at all based on your approach here and the fact that she has no idea who you are



> Just that I might not consider your opinion "expert." I mean, I don't consider my opinion "expert" on this topic, so hopefully that won't offend you. =)



Did you actually mean that, because it appears you may have offended some and your posts after that do not appear that you actually meant any of that at all. I am not offended but it appears that others may be and you were offended that they took offence.

Now this bit



> Ok. With all that out of the way: I'm a pescatarian who is moving more and more towards a completely plant-based diet (largely for health reasons; the pescatarianism more or less covers my moral reasons for avoiding eating animals). But I also run triathlons, lift weights 2-3 times a week, and - obviously - practice the martial arts regularly. I've heard so frequently that we need to consume some ungodly amount of protein each day to build and retain muscle mass (it varies, but I mostly hear something like 1 - 1.5 time my body weight in grams) that I worry about getting this much protein simply from plants, soy, and legumes. On the other hand, I've also read about elite athletes (e.g., winning marathoners/triathletes) who clearly put out extremely high levels of performance and are fairly muscular but who eat vegan diets; they say Americans overestimate the amount of protein we actually need and that we get all that's required from grains, legumes, and vegetables.
> 
> So. What is UP WITH THAT? Who am I to believe and what ought I do? Can I maintain my current muscle mass if I drop to a completely vegan diet? Can I ADD to my muscle mass with a completely vegan diet? Is whey powder - a dairy product, right? - bad for me if I'm trying to eat vegan? Do we really need to eat our bodyweight in grams of protein or is that an exaggeration? I'm interested in all of your thoughts and personal anecdotes - and especially your expert opinions if you're out there.



I submit that you are looking in the wrong place for answers based on your criteria. There are doctors out there that are more capable of answering this if you contact them at a professional level. The guy at engine 2 is, in my unqualified opinion, an expert. And his father is an MD who has done extensive research on vegetarianism. I could give you his name but I do not meet a, b, or c. And there is another doctor out there, who is actually quite knowledgeable on the topic, even though he has written books and done infomercials. 

This is just my opinion and I am not any of a, b, or c so take it for what it is worth. You may have gone further with this post and in your research if you asked if anyone had any info or could point you in the right direction

As for me I am not expert but I tend to fluctuate between pescatarian and regular old vegetarian. Flirted with Vegan and tried Macrobiotic....he typed as he ate a Kiwi fruit


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## Gnarlie

I've been practising martial arts on a strict vegan diet for a number of years, and have done my research. I have successfully dropped weight and built muscle at various times during my path. I don't think you can follow a martial path successfully on this kind of diet without planning, analysing and re-planning your intake diversity very carefully. It's a really long OODA loop with many influences. A combination of careful research, planning and experimentation over a number of years has led me to my conclusions, but what works for me might not work for you. I'm pretty much an expert on what I need, and only that.


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## SahBumNimRush

For the sake of this being an interesting topic, I am attempting to move past the tone of this thread and continue putting information out here for everyone's benefit.  

"For athletes, 0.7 to 1 gram of protein per pound of lean muscle is  optimal for increasing strength and size. For example, if you weigh  180lb and have ten percent bodyfat, then you should shoot for 150-160  grams of protein to build more muscle. If you want to maintain your  size, then 100-120 will probably be sufficient. Next, vegans like anyone else need to load up on healthy sources of  fat. Without enough fat in your diet, your skin will dry up, your energy  will plummet, and you will look like death. 

Getting 20-30% of your  calories from fat is a good way to go. Load up on healthy fats such as:  flaxseed oil, olive oil, almonds, walnuts, almond butter, and avocadoes.  Also, vegan diets are free of all saturated fats, which is great for  the most part. However, some saturated fat is required for optimal  health, so get some coconut oil or coconut milk in you diet as well.


 Finally, make sure that you eat a variety of food to get a full array  of muscle building amino acids. Some examples of good combinations  include: black beans and quinoa, lentils and brown rice, almond butter  sandwich, Rice protein/soy milk shake, green peas and almonds. Have some  veggie burgers and other fake meat products from time to time, but make  sure that the majority of your diet comes from fresh organic food."

~Mike Mahler  

I know I keep referencing this guy, but he is one of my kettlebell heroes, who also happens to be BIG, STRONG, AND VEGAN.  He has the academic credentials to back him, and puts out a lot of great information to the public.  

http://www.grapplearts.com/Blog/2012/04/getting-big-and-strong-on-a-vegan-diet/

He also posts sample recipes and meals for "hard training athletes"

http://www.mikemahler.com/online-library/articles/nutrition-programs/power-vegan-meals.html

Dr. Carlon M. Colker is another person who I puts out a great deal of material on the matter, that you may want to look at. 

http://peakwellness.com/about/about.htm

As for me, personally, I grew up on an old school/non-commercial (i.e. free range, grass fed beef, no drugs/hormones etc) beef cattle farm.  I like meat, my body, my choice.


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## Xue Sheng

punisher73 said:


> I'm not a doctor, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night...



Nope...doesn't count...now if it where a Holiday Inn Express


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## elder999

FrontKick-Jab-Punch said:


> Ah, Elder999 - this is fun stuff. I'm glad I can provide such rich amusement.
> 
> A) Thank you, these were interesting videos. You knew this guy? The top one, I mean. He looks out of your generation, but I don't know how old you are.



Mr. Greenstein passed away in 1977. I met him when I was 11, in 1971. 



FrontKick-Jab-Punch said:


> B) Personal experience is a wonderful way of understanding the world. But there is lots of information out there on how just because a person experiences something doesn't mean that it's actually true, or that it's helpful to others. For example, some people think they've had personal experience with aliens. That doesn't mean we ought to consider them experts in astronomy. Also, people have lived well into their 90s smoking multiple packs of cigarettes daily and eating a high-fat, high cholesterol diet. But the plural of anecdote isn't data, and there are always outliers.



And the data seems to support some sort of vegetarian lifestyle extending lifespan, as long one isn't a vegetarian alcoholic, or vegetarian smoker, or vegetarian couch-potato, or some combination thereof.


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## crushing

elder999 said:


> And the data seems to support some sort of vegetarian lifestyle extending lifespan, as long one isn't a vegetarian alcoholic, or vegetarian smoker, or vegetarian couch-potato, or some combination thereof.



The more recent studies started taking in to account other lifestyle choices of those that consumed meat, or didn't differentiate meat from processed meat products.  With the recent studies meat was not found to be associated with mortality.  So, omnivores that aren't alcoholics, smokers, or couch-potatoes or some combination thereof can lead just as long and healthy lives as vegetarians that also don't engage in those more risky behaviors.


http://www.nature.com/ejcn/journal/vaop/ncurrent/abs/ejcn201359a.html

That said, I can understand and appreciate why some people may have moral or philosophical reasons to not eat meat.  More power to them and more bacon for me.


----------



## Xue Sheng

So let me get this straight....if I'm a alcoholics, smokers, couch-potato...what I eat does not matter .... and therefore you're saying I need to change my lifestyle...... there goes my evening at home... DANG!!!! :disgust: :uhyeah:


----------



## Steve

Xue Sheng said:


> So let me get this straight....if I'm a alcoholics, smokers, couch-potato...what I eat does not matter .... and therefore you're saying I need to change my lifestyle...... there goes my evening at home... DANG!!!! :disgust: :uhyeah:


Depends upon your goals, Xue.  If you're interested in being an obese lump of goo, then I'd say drinking, smoking and eating to excess are the way to go!

[video=youtube_share;VI8tl0HH1eg]http://youtu.be/VI8tl0HH1eg[/video]


----------



## arnisador

FrontKick-Jab-Punch said:


> I'm learning that people don't like to feel they're being excluded from conversations for not being experts.



That's not the nature of this board. Your question, given your requirements, might have been better asked elsewhere. Different spaces and all that.



> I have one in Statistics.



You should know where to find the information you require, then.


----------



## arnisador

SahBumNimRush said:


> hormone optimization is the key



This sounds like nonsense to me.


----------



## arnisador

SahBumNimRush said:


> Dr. Benjamin Rush, 5th Dan
> Ohio Valley Taekwondo Academy
> http://www.facebook.com/pages/Ohio-Valley-Taekwondo-Academy/211530238862310



http://www.kangstkd.org/parkersburg/about_our_black_belts.html

Ah--you're a chiropractor attempting to give the impression that you're a physician. Got it. Sorry, but stuff like "hormone optimization" is going to give you away.


----------



## arnisador

SahBumNimRush said:


> I know I keep referencing this guy, but he is one of my kettlebell heroes, who also happens to be BIG, STRONG, AND VEGAN.  He has the academic credentials to back him



I went to his site and also used Google but couldn't find his academic credentials. What you quoted above seemed fairly reasonable, though I don't know where the specific numbers come from. What is his academic background?


----------



## arnisador

elder999 said:


> And the data seems to support some sort of vegetarian lifestyle extending lifespan, as long one isn't a vegetarian alcoholic, or vegetarian smoker, or vegetarian couch-potato, or some combination thereof.



A vegetarian diet is so often calorie-restricted, and the data on that though far from clear is promising for longevity. Of course avoiding red meats and high fat content also is known to help, but my suspicion is that the calorie restriction plays the major part in its well-established health benefits. Just a hunch. In any event vegetarians-by-choice are such a self-selected group that it's hard to study the effects well; and the study of (near)-vegetarians-by-necessity, in poor countries, has made it clear that the introduction of meat has clear benefits statistically in such cases.


----------



## SahBumNimRush

arnisador said:


> Ah--you're a chiropractor attempting to give the impression that you're a physician. Got it. Sorry, but stuff like "hormone optimization" is going to give you away.



Actually, I never attempted to give any type of impression, my profile here on MT, is quite clear: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/member.php/21428-SahBumNimRush

Also, to be clear, I have physician status in the state where I practice.


----------



## SahBumNimRush

http://instituteofhormonalbalance.com/WellnessServices/AthleticPerformance/tabid/61/Default.aspx

If we are speaking about someone who trains frequently and heavily, many hormone levels in the body decrease during exercise.  Combine the slowed production with insufficient dietary needs of the building blocks of these hormones, it can lead to less than optimal results; both in performance and body composition.  

"Hormonal imbalance can present with multiple complaints like: hot &#64258;ashes, irritability, foggy thinking, *weight gain* (increase in % body fat), *weight loss* (incapable of adding lean mass), insomnia, gut disturbances, and fatigue... "  Dr. Edwin Lee, MD


----------



## SahBumNimRush

I will admit that this is not my realm of expertise, but here are some considerations to think about.

Zinc is an essential in the production of Testosterone.  Testosterone is a hormone responsible for, among other things, muscle development.  Approximately 25% the Zinc in the U.S. diet comes from Beef.  While there are MANY sources (beans, whole grains, nuts, and seeds) of Zinc in plants, most plants high in Zinc also contain phytate.  Phytate inhibits the absorption of both Zinc and Iron.  Therefore, many plant sources of Zinc are not bioavailable (i.e. you can't digest/absorb the Zinc).  

This is why many Vegan athletes supplement their diet with Zinc.


----------



## Xue Sheng

arnisador said:


> A vegetarian diet is so often calorie-restricted, and the data on that though far from clear is promising for longevity. Of course avoiding red meats and high fat content also is known to help, but my suspicion is that the calorie restriction plays the major part in its well-established health benefits. Just a hunch. In any event vegetarians-by-choice are such a self-selected group that it's hard to study the effects well; and the study of (near)-vegetarians-by-necessity, in poor countries, has made it clear that the introduction of meat has clear benefits statistically in such cases.



But there are vegetarian diets that are not calorie restrictive at all and they are showing some rather interesting health benefits

Professionals (Experts) to check on the topic

T. Colin Campbell, Ph.D.
Caldwell B. Esselstyn, Jr., M.D.
Neal Barnard, M.D.
Junshi Chen, Ph.D.
Connie B. Diekman, MEd, RD, FADA
David Klurfeld, Ph.D.
Matthew Lederman, M.D., 
Alona Pulde, M.D.
Doug Lisle, Ph.D.
Terry Mason, M.D.
John McDougall, M.D.
Pam Popper, N.D.
Joel Fuhrman, MD 

Film to check
Forks Over Knives


----------



## SahBumNimRush

http://www.drfuhrman.com/library/vegan_athlete.pdf

Joel Furhman, MD

"Suggested Supplements for Vegan Athletes"

"ZINC"


----------



## arnisador

Xue Sheng said:


> But there are vegetarian diets that are not calorie restrictive at all and they are showing some rather interesting health benefits


  I don't doubt that--avoiding red meat can be a clear benefit already. But I do think that as one looks at the national statistics, the relative sparsity of fat vegetarians is a big part of what's going on here from a public health perspective. Again, that's just my opinion.


----------



## Xue Sheng

SahBumNimRush said:


> http://www.drfuhrman.com/library/vegan_athlete.pdf
> 
> Joel Furhman, MD
> 
> "Suggested Supplements for Vegan Athletes"
> 
> "ZINC"



I have actually been following his diet, well mostly following his diet. I still eat a little meat from time to time (which he does say is OK), but I have to say I do feel better, I have more energy, I am losing weight and even my knees feel better. I have decreased dairy, almost eliminated it, and increased vegetables, and especially legumes.


----------



## Xue Sheng

arnisador said:


> I don't doubt that--avoiding red meat can be a clear benefit already. But I do think that as one looks at the national statistics, the relative sparsity of fat vegetarians is a big part of what's going on here from a public health perspective. Again, that's just my opinion.



There was a study done in the 70s that Dr Furhman uses to show the health benefits of a diet that is higher in Micronutrients than Macronutrients. And the study showed that populations whose diets were higher in Micronutrients had lower incidents of heart disease, stroke, cancer, Parkinson etc.

He also says that it would be very hard to do this study today due to the spread, globally, of fast food and processed food. Basically it appears that diets, globally are getting worse.


----------



## Sukerkin

Reducing dairy!  What a preposterous idea and I am against it!  :lol:.

Because I am a contrary sort of fellow at times, I am now going out to buy some cheese - Cathedral City mature cheddar I reckon ...  http://www.cathedralcity.co.uk/products/family-favourites.aspx

Or maybe some from the local butchers ... and get some bacon whilst I am there (tho' maybe not as I am making a lamb jalfrezi tonight) .


----------



## Xue Sheng

Sukerkin said:


> Reducing dairy! What a preposterous idea and I am against it! :lol:.
> 
> Because I am a contrary sort of fellow at times, I am now going out to buy some cheese - Cathedral City mature cheddar I reckon ... http://www.cathedralcity.co.uk/products/family-favourites.aspx
> 
> Or maybe some from the local butchers ... and get some bacon whilst I am there (tho' maybe not as I am making a lamb jalfrezi tonight) .



Yeah but you have good Cheese on that side of the Atlantic 

I was against reducing Dairy as well, actually I refused to do it for a long time. I have a friend who is a Yoga Therapist who has been hounding me to get rid of dairy for years and have had family tell me I really need to cut down. The Yoga therapist friend is thrilled and my family has not even noticed


----------



## elder999

Sukerkin said:


> Reducing dairy!  What a preposterous idea and I am against it!  :lol:.
> 
> Because I am a contrary sort of fellow at times, I am now going out to buy some cheese - Cathedral City mature cheddar I reckon ...  http://www.cathedralcity.co.uk/products/fam
> ilyfavourites.aspx
> 
> Or maybe some from the local butchers ... and get some bacon whilst I am there (tho' maybe not as I am making a lamb jalfrezi tonight) .



Way to go all _Wallace and Grommit_ on us!


----------



## SahBumNimRush

My wife is allergic to a protein found in bovine dairy, so I have had to limit my dairy consumption when cooking at home.  We still use a good bit of sheep and goat cheeses, and I still indulge in a great block of cow cheese from time to time.  However, I don't do ice cream, I rarely do milk, and I watch how much butter I use.

Personally, I do my best to live my dietary life in moderation.  I like meat, but I try to make it the "side dish" rather than the focus of the meal.  I like grains, but I also try to make the portion as small as I can.  I do my best to have the plate as multi colored as I can for the season.  

I think it is important to know where your food is coming from though.  I grew up on a farm, and have a lot of respect for the farm to table movement.  I have the luxury of living within walking distance of a farmer's market, I belong to a CSA, and have family who own/operate farms to get most of my meat.  I know *most *my food isn't full of artificial ingredients.  My vice is ethyl though.. . I'm a sucker for a dry gin martini or a glass of scotch!


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Hmm, I learned a lot from this thread from all the non-experts...but I think I should not consider these ideas true, since none of them are experts, after all, and can offer no REAL scholarly advice...:deadhorse


----------



## Sukerkin

:chuckles:  Now, now, *KD*, the fellow I think you are referring to *did* make a bit of a mistake in the attitude department but let's be kind and cut him a little slack, for we all stick our feet in our mouths occasionally, me more than most I fear .


----------



## Xue Sheng

SahBumNimRush said:


> My wife is allergic to a protein found in bovine dairy, so I have had to limit my dairy consumption when cooking at home. We still use a good bit of sheep and goat cheeses, and I still indulge in a great block of cow cheese from time to time. However, I don't do ice cream, I rarely do milk, and I watch how much butter I use.
> 
> Personally, I do my best to live my dietary life in moderation. I like meat, but I try to make it the "side dish" rather than the focus of the meal. I like grains, but I also try to make the portion as small as I can. I do my best to have the plate as multi colored as I can for the season.
> 
> I think it is important to know where your food is coming from though. I grew up on a farm, and have a lot of respect for the farm to table movement. I have the luxury of living within walking distance of a farmer's market, I belong to a CSA, and have family who own/operate farms to get most of my meat. I know *most *my food isn't full of artificial ingredients. My vice is ethyl though.. . I'm a sucker for a dry gin martini or a glass of scotch!



OH MAN!!!!! Set a block of Swiss cheese in front of me :fanboy:&#8230;. And then there is this Irish Cheese :inlove:&#8230;. Must&#8230;stop&#8230;thinking&#8230;about&#8230;. Cheese  :uhyeah:

Seriously I see nothing wrong at all with moderation and a &#8220;Balanced Diet&#8221; it as just that the weight gain from dealing with the injuries (and age) and the aches and pains I was feeling combined with what I was reading (and people bugging me) I decided&#8230;What the heck&#8230;.what have I got to lose&#8221; I do not eat processed food if I can help it and tend to go for natural and organic. So I am giving it a try for a few months and I will see where it gets me. I have fallen off the wagon a couple of times, but I have also got right back on. 

But so far, so good. I have seen no muscle loss and I have been able to get back to my CMA and I have been working out on my Total Gym (Said to impress Chuck&#8230;mostly out of fear :anic: ). I am finding the Total Gym is working best for the injuries I have been dealing with.

One thing I have noticed, if I do fall off that wagon and eat junk or too much meat or have too much dairy...I feel a bit sick. More so with the Junk than the meat or dairy.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Sukerkin said:


> :chuckles:  Now, now, *KD*, the fellow I think you are referring to *did* make a bit of a mistake in the attitude department but let's be kind and cut him a little slack, for we all stick our feet in our mouths occasionally, me more than most I fear .


Hmm fair enough, since he's new I'll let it slide. But feel free to not cut me slack when i stick my feet in my mouth, I rather enjoy it when people dont


----------



## Sukerkin

If I were to hazard a guess, I suspect that our relative newcomer has departed, smarting from some imaginary wounds and feeling the injured party - a shame but people make their choices and have to follow the path they take them on.


----------



## Xue Sheng

Sukerkin said:


> If I were to hazard a guess, I suspect that our relative newcomer has departed, smarting from some imaginary wounds and feeling the injured party - a shame but people make their choices and have to follow the path they take them on.



I shouldn't dood it....If I dood it I get a whippin.....I dood it 

But are you an expert in Phycology with a PhD to back that up in order to make that statement 

Sorry, I know I should not have gone there...but I am weak from lack of cheese and I could not resist


----------



## Carol

SahBumNimRush said:


> My wife is allergic to a protein found in bovine dairy, so I have had to limit my dairy consumption when cooking at home.  We still use a good bit of sheep and goat cheeses, and I still indulge in a great block of cow cheese from time to time.  However, I don't do ice cream, I rarely do milk, and I watch how much butter I use.
> 
> Personally, I do my best to live my dietary life in moderation.  I like meat, but I try to make it the "side dish" rather than the focus of the meal.  I like grains, but I also try to make the portion as small as I can.  I do my best to have the plate as multi colored as I can for the season.
> 
> I think it is important to know where your food is coming from though.  I grew up on a farm, and have a lot of respect for the farm to table movement.  I have the luxury of living within walking distance of a farmer's market, I belong to a CSA, and have family who own/operate farms to get most of my meat.  I know *most *my food isn't full of artificial ingredients.  My vice is ethyl though.. . I'm a sucker for a dry gin martini or a glass of scotch!



Aye, I belong to a CSA, and live less than 10 miles from some small family farms here.  I fell in love with the local farmers markets here and have made friends with some awesome people while wandering around the local farmers markets.  We keep them going all year round, although right now (winter) the frequency is much slower.   The majority of the meats I eat and all of the eggs I eat are local and pastured.   Aside from the health reasons, I think that we (as the humans who do eat meat) have an obligation to raise them as kindly and harvest them as humanely as possible.


----------



## DennisBreene

As I have to be in a class shortly I'm afraid I only had time to quickly scan the thread.  I hope  I can provide some assistance.  As a physician, I was taught that the human body can manufacture all but 7? of the required amino acids for making protein.  If your dietary source provides adequate amounts of the essential 7, you should be able to make muscle protein.  I understand that this may require some variation in plant source ingestion and I would look at that specific issue before settling on a single source such as whey.   If however, you propose to build muscle using Vegans, as in how many Vegans can I bench press today; I would advise against it.  It seems that Vegans are very focused on a non-violence to animals life style.  I would think that as such they may take being used as objects of resistance training as an affront and may actually react non-violently.  Off to class, and I hope this helps a little.


----------



## frank raud

FrontKick-Jab-Punch said:


> I'm not an expert by any means, but if as a researcher you are questioning whether using an animal product is bad for you when you are trying to be vegan, you might want to research what the word vegan means. Soy powder could be used for any additional protien requirements and fit the definition of a vegan diet.


----------



## Xue Sheng

Veganism



> Veganism is the practice of abstaining from the use of animal products, particularly in diet, as well as an associated philosophy that rejects the commodity status of sentient animals. A follower of veganism is known as a vegan.



Vegetarianism



> Vegetarianism is the practice of abstaining from the consumption of meat &#8211; red meat, poultry, seafood and the flesh of any other animal; it may also include abstention from by-products of animal slaughter, such as animal-derived rennet and gelatin.



There are a number of types of vegetarianism, which exclude or include various foods.




> &#8226; Ovo vegetarianism includes eggs but not dairy products.
> &#8226; Lacto vegetarianism includes dairy products but not eggs.
> &#8226; Ovo-lacto vegetarianism (or lacto-ovo vegetarianism) includes animal/dairy products such as eggs, milk, and honey.
> &#8226; Veganism excludes all animal flesh and products, such as milk, honey, and eggs, as well as items refined or manufactured through any such product, such as bone-char refined white sugar or animal-tested baking soda.
> &#8226; Raw veganism includes only fresh and uncooked fruit, nuts, seeds, and vegetables. Vegetables can only be cooked up to a certain temperature.[25]
> &#8226; Fruitarianism permits only fruit, nuts, seeds, and other plant matter that can be gathered without harming the plant.[26]
> &#8226; Sattvic diet (also known as yogic diet), a plant based diet which may also include dairy (not eggs) and honey, but excludes anything from the onion or leek family, red lentils, durian fruit, mushrooms, blue cheeses, fermented foods or sauces, alcoholic drinks and often also excludes coffee, black or green tea, chocolate, nutmeg or any other type of stimulant such as excess sharp spices.
> &#8226; Buddhist vegetarianism. Different Buddhist traditions have differing teachings on diet, which may also vary for ordained monks and nuns compared to others. Many interpret the precept 'not to kill' to require abstinence from meat, but not all. In Taiwan, su vegetarianism excludes not only all animal products but also vegetables in the allium family (which have the characteristic aroma of onion and garlic): onion, garlic, scallions, leeks, chives, or shallots.
> &#8226; Jain vegetarianism includes dairy but excludes eggs and honey, as well as root vegetables.
> &#8226; Macrobiotic diets consist mostly of whole grains and beans.



Other types of vegetarians



> Individuals may label themselves "vegetarian" while practicing a semi-vegetarian diet, as some dictionary definitions describe vegetarianism as including the consumption of fish, or only include mammalian flesh as part of their definition of meat, while other definitions exclude fish and all animal flesh. In other cases, individuals may describe themselves as "flexitarian". These diets may be followed by those who reduce animal flesh consumed as a way of transitioning to a complete vegetarian diet or for health, ethical, environmental, or other reasons. Semi-vegetarian diets include:
> 
> &#8226; pescetarianism, which includes fish and possibly other forms of seafood;
> &#8226; pollotarianism, which includes chicken and possibly other poultry;
> &#8226; "pollo-pescetarian", which includes poultry and fish, or "white meat" only;
> &#8226; macrobiotic diets consisting mostly of whole grains and beans, but may sometimes include fish.
> 
> Semi-vegetarianism is contested by vegetarian groups who state that vegetarianism excludes all animal flesh.



Currently I would call myself a pollo-pescetarian


----------



## Gnarlie

frank raud said:


> I'm not an expert by any means, but if as a researcher you are questioning whether using an animal product is bad for you when you are trying to be vegan, you might want to research what the word vegan means. Soy powder could be used for any additional protien requirements and fit the definition of a vegan diet.



Fair observation. I use a soy protein isolate powder from a company called Dr Ritter, but I think it might only be available in Germany.  I've seen similar products in the UK though, and I guess there must be in the US too.


----------



## Xue Sheng

Choosing a Protein Powder


----------



## Steve

frank raud said:


> I'm not an expert by any means, but if as a researcher you are questioning whether using an animal product is bad for you when you are trying to be vegan, you might want to research what the word vegan means. Soy powder could be used for any additional protien requirements and fit the definition of a vegan diet.


I actually don't like Soy, and the OP is correct that whey isn't considered vegan by any vegan I know.  The risks of using Soy for men are low, but irrefutable, and with so many other options available, I find it very easy to just avoid it all together.  

There are many protein powders that are considered vegan.  After trying several, the one I like best that seems to do the trick is hemp protein.  Another popular source of protein is peas.  But truth is, if you eat a varied diet with a lot of greens and nuts, you're getting plenty of protein.  Quinoa is also high in protein.


----------



## SahBumNimRush

As Steve posted, there are some documented risks associated with excessive Soy ingestion, as Soy is a phytoestrogen.  Beyond that, Soy is in the top 8 food allergens, so, for many people, it may be a good idea to limit the amount of soy in your diet.


----------



## Xue Sheng

I don&#8217;t care what you say...I am STILL going out this afternoon for my Decaf Soy Latte


----------



## SahBumNimRush

Xue Sheng said:


> I don&#8217;t care what you say...I am STILL going out this afternoon for my Decaf Soy Latte




Sometimes it's the little things in life.. . or the Venti things.


----------



## clfsean

Just my $.02 (or whatever he value is in today's economy) ... 

I'm a second hand vegetarian... my dinner eats my veggies for me... 

View attachment $VeganVMeat.jpg


----------



## Gnarlie

SahBumNimRush said:


> As Steve posted, there are some documented risks associated with excessive Soy ingestion, as Soy is a phytoestrogen.  Beyond that, Soy is in the top 8 food allergens, so, for many people, it may be a good idea to limit the amount of soy in your diet.



Noted; most of the soy protein I consume comes from Tempeh, a fermented soy product, where the quantities of phytoestrogen are reduced. I spend a lot of time balancing soy protein out with proteins from other sources such as nuts and pulses. I only use isolate powder when I feel like I want a post training boost.


----------



## Steve

clfsean said:


> Just my $.02 (or whatever he value is in today's economy) ...
> 
> I'm a second hand vegetarian... my dinner eats my veggies for me...


Certainly nothing wrong with this.  In many ways, a non-standard diet, regardless of what it is, requires some thought.  It's much easier, cheaper and more convenient to eat garbage.  My personal opinion is that unhealthy food cooked from identifiable, raw ingredients is going to be healthier for me than any processed food.  So, if health is the primary concern, simply cooking at home will likely be a significant improvement, regardless of the diet involved.  

From there, it's a matter of balancing health with one's personal beliefs to decide what to eat.  Most diets (diet being what one eats, as opposed to a weight loss diet) can be healthy provided there is some thought to incorporating variety and balancing nutritional needs.


----------



## Gnarlie

clfsean said:


> Just my $.02 (or whatever he value is in today's economy) ...
> 
> I'm a second hand vegetarian... my dinner eats my veggies for me...
> 
> View attachment 17772



I adapt Nigella's recipes, she's got a good feel for spices and her ingredients are mostly vegan friendly apart from the meat, stock and dairy.

I'm not sure that that other woman there is qualified to do what she does. And she pokes around in people's poo. That's not normal, is it?

Vegan doesn't have to mean radical extremist militant kale-nazi, or smug, self satisfied prig.

In my experience, those who want to know more will ask sincerely, and people are more open to trying something new if you're not trying to ram it down their throats. That's where the first person in the photographs fails, and it doesn't help anyone, carnivore, omnivore or herbivore.


----------



## SahBumNimRush

Gnarlie said:


> And she pokes around in people's poo. That's not normal, is it?



:s395:


----------



## jks9199

I just want to publicly thank you all for taking what was turning into a garbage thread, and making it useful and meaningful, no matter what the OP said.


----------



## Xue Sheng

clfsean said:


> Just my $.02 (or whatever he value is in today's economy) ...
> 
> I'm a second hand vegetarian... my dinner eats my veggies for me...



Oh look a 72 year old vegetarian







and a 59 year old Vegetarian






and a 54 year old vegetarian






And here is a list of a lot more

and another list to go with it

whoopee doopie, big deal, who cares, so what


----------



## SahBumNimRush

To be honest, the vegetarian/vegans that I see that have the "nasty" complexions and body compositions, tend to be that way, NOT because they are vegetarians.  They tend to be that way because of either A). hygiene issues B). still consume a diet of predominantly processed food, albeit vegetarian/vegan C). females with no "beauty products"  D). combination thereof.  

Look at many celebrities, with no make up and they look much like the scary vegan poo poo checker above.. .






Annalynne McCord: favorite foods:  Breakfast Burritos and In and Out Burgers






Dianne Keaton: Bulemic






Pamela Anderson: Vegetarian, with Hepatitis C, plus other less than healthy life style choices.


----------



## Gnarlie

One of the joys of going to vegan restaurants is trying to see if you can tell who is vegan, veggie or carny visitor from the way they look and act.

Gnarlie


----------



## Carol

Carol G, carnivore 

Climbs more mountains than any of you 

View attachment $yse4u7eg.jpg


----------



## elder999

Carol said:


> Carol G, carnivore
> 
> Climbs more mountains than any of you
> 
> View attachment 17773



Come now, Carol. Surely you were being hyperbolous, and didn't mean "any" of us? :lfao:....busy as he is, this opportunistic omnivore (more on that later) probably climbs more real mountains in a month than you have al winter....just sayin'...what you'd call a mountain climb, I call my morning run....:lfao:


----------



## FrontKick-Jab-Punch

I think it's only fair to respond to this thread and give a proper good-bye rather than disappearing without comment or explanation; I've gotten some good information and had some nice interactions with others on this board (clearly, in other threads than this one).

You are correct: the silly noob is departing, and since I'm so new here, I don't have any delusions about it making any difference either way.  But one doesn't like to see themselves ridiculed in absentia.  So to sum up briefly: I had had a very tired day when I posted the original question, and if you'll take the time to go back and look at perhaps the first three posts, you'll see that I was incredibly reasonable (and reasonably articulate), and that others took immediate offense at my "tone" and became a bit persnickity.  I put up with a lot of egos in my day job, and the realization that what was getting everyone's goat was my (perceived) unwillingness to recognize people's expertise made me persnickity back.

In the end, it doesn't much matter: there was indeed an excellent discussion here about vegan stuff, and people's continued mockery of my idiocy three pages after I clammed up and went away reminded me that I don't like posting on message boards.  There's too large a standard deviation in intelligence, reactivity, macho posturing, etc.  I absolutely admit that I started getting inappropriately snarky myself, but I honestly stopped caring about being reasonable after the first few posters mocked me and just sort of gave into a hedonistic sort of a-holiness, knowing that I wasn't really meant to be here.  

So, in conclusion: goodbye, and thanks for all the fish.  Please don't think I'm unable to take a few nasty comments and am leaving in a sulk; I used to be very active on message boards and left for a good reason.  They bring out the worst in some people, myself included at times.  I'm much more personable in person. =)  

Tang Soo!

FKJP


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## arnisador

Thanks for your post. There certainly is blame to be shared--people are too often too eager to get a pile-on going rather than letting a perceived swipe pass in the name of discussion. Good luck.


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## Steve

The irony is palpable.  It looked for a moment as though he would accept some responsibility, but in the end, after congratulating himself for being intelligent, articulate and imminently reasonable, he ends by taking his ball and going home in a huff.  

I wish you well.  I genuinely believe that if you were less egotistical, less insecure and a little bit friendlier, you could be an excellent contributor to the site.  But none of that is possible if you refuse to accept responsibility for your own words, and apologize without any inkling of true contrition. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## granfire

and we wonder why self proclaimed vegans get a bad rap.....


however, the more I read, the less I care:
grains are Teh Evil....legumes inflamatory, meat loaded with hormones and antibiotics, you get e coli from spinach, sugar: bad
alcohol: bad, coffee, _tea_: BAD dairy, bad, of course....potatoes/bananas bad....

yeah, that really does not leave a whole lot to eat.

I am outy, need to find something eat now, I am starving!


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## clfsean

granfire said:


> and we wonder why self proclaimed vegans get a bad rap.....
> 
> 
> however, the more I read, the less I care:
> grains are Teh Evil....legumes inflamatory, meat loaded with hormones and antibiotics, you get e coli from spinach, sugar: bad
> alcohol: bad, coffee, _tea_: BAD dairy, bad, of course....potatoes/bananas bad....
> 
> yeah, that really does not leave a whole lot to eat.
> 
> I am outy, need to find something eat now, I am starving!



Pork is slow roasting in the oven in wine with fresh herbs, aromatics & peppers, which will be used later to make a wine sauce for pasta while consuming (un)healthy quantities of fruit juice infused rum drinks... CHEERS!!!!!!!!!!!


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## granfire

clfsean said:


> Pork is slow roasting in the oven in wine with fresh herbs, aromatics & peppers, which will be used later to make a wine sauce for pasta while consuming (un)healthy quantities of fruit juice infused rum drinks... CHEERS!!!!!!!!!!!



I hope you got room for one more!


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## Sukerkin

Make that two more .


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## DennisBreene

Sukerkin said:


> Make that two more .



Yeah, you can't start waving those aromatics around without offering people a taste.  And they call vegans snarky:fart:


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## Steve

Just want to add, I've been making protein smoothies and green shakes in my VitaMix for about the last 6 months.  It's pretty cool to be able to make a vegan friendly shake that has fruit, vegetables, lots of protein and vitamins and tastes pretty awesome, too.  I routinely "hide" lots of veggies that I wouldn't normally enjoy eating, like beets and broccoli, along with a rotating group of greens.  I have discovered that I really like baby kale, but my favorite are red chard and beet greens. 

Lots of energy, makes me feel good, and I can empty out the fridge of fruits and veggies that are close to over-ripe.  Those mottled, brown bananas are PERFECT for a shake.


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