# Human Weapon- TKD



## Laurentkd (Dec 14, 2007)

It is supposed to air next Friday (the 21st).  While this show could definitely use some improvement, I'll watch a poor-quality martial arts show over any other show on TV.  My main worry is that it will only show Olympic sparring, which won't really give people a true idea of true TKD (at least true TKD in my opinion!). Although, it seems they have done a fairly good job of showing multiple aspects of the other arts they have done.  So here's hoping for the best!
Who else is going to watch?


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## terryl965 (Dec 14, 2007)

Is this a new episode or the repeat from last season, do you know. I thought they showed TKD eary in the series for last year.


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## newGuy12 (Dec 14, 2007)

Laurentkd said:


> My main worry is that it will only show Olympic sparring, which won't really give people a true idea of true TKD (at least true TKD in my opinion!)



I know.


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## AceHBK (Dec 14, 2007)

terryl965 said:


> Is this a new episode or the repeat from last season, do you know. I thought they showed TKD eary in the series for last year.


 
This is a new episode.  They did not have a episode last season.  


LaurenTKD....I actually think they will show both sides but will focus mainly on the self defense part and not all on the olympic.  I will say that they do a good job of going to the roots of each art and provide a lot of knowledge on the background.  They have done so on all of their other episodes and I would look for them to do the same here.

I expect to see them focus on:

1. Origin
2. evolution
3. Self defense
4. Sport
5. Military use of TKD


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## terryl965 (Dec 14, 2007)

AceHBK said:


> This is a new episode. They did not have a episode last season.
> 
> 
> LaurenTKD....I actually think they will show both sides but will focus mainly on the self defense part and not all on the olympic. I will say that they do a good job of going to the roots of each art and provide a lot of knowledge on the background. They have done so on all of their other episodes and I would look for them to do the same here.
> ...


 
My mistake which series had the special on TKD. I hope they stay true to the roots.


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## chrismay101 (Dec 14, 2007)

Hi everyone is this on U.S. tv only or does anyonr know if it will be on in the UK???


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## AceHBK (Dec 14, 2007)

chrismay101 said:


> Hi everyone is this on U.S. tv only or does anyonr know if it will be on in the UK???


 
Not sure if you guys in the UK get the history channel.  If all else fails and it doesnt then you can download it.


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## IcemanSK (Dec 14, 2007)

I don't have cable, but I'll wait for the DVD. I'll look forward to your thoughts on it.


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## exile (Dec 14, 2007)

AceHBK said:


> This is a new episode.  They did not have a episode last season.
> 
> 
> LaurenTKD....*I actually think they will show both sides but will focus mainly on the self defense part and not all on the olympic...*



I agree, this would be consistent with the combat orientation that they've taken so far. My dread is that they'll try to show these guys learning 720º tornadoes to use for... CQ self defense!! Because a lot of their shows have a distinctly `demo' aspect to them. I hope not, but... well, I guess we'll see next week, eh?


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## newGuy12 (Dec 14, 2007)

exile said:


> My dread is that they'll try to show these guys learning 720º tornadoes to use for... CQ self defense!!



Now, now!

:wink2::uhyeah:


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## exile (Dec 14, 2007)

newGuy12 said:


> Now, now!
> 
> :wink2::uhyeah:



Laugh now... but you may find yourself crying later! 

Don't say you weren't warned... :lol:


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## newGuy12 (Dec 14, 2007)

I have no cable tv, and I usually try to catch a clip of this on youtube or something, but, I may just have to go out to my Mother's house (if I can confirm that they have this history channel) and watch or tape this episode.

Get the popcorn ready, turn on the tv.

Boy, I would sure be mad if they drop the ball with this one!  They better do a good job!  If not, then maybe some Combat TKD person can come up to them and... BAM!  There!  There's the TKD!!!

Hahahaha!


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## Laurentkd (Dec 14, 2007)

exile said:


> I agree, this would be consistent with the combat orientation that they've taken so far. My dread is that they'll try to show these guys learning 720º tornadoes to use for... CQ self defense!! Because a lot of their shows have a distinctly `demo' aspect to them. I hope not, but... well, I guess we'll see next week, eh?


 
He stated it better than I (as always).  I worry that they will show olympic sparring AS a self-defense art.  But, as ACE said, they have been pretty good about giving multiple points to each art (at least as much as my limitied expertise in these arts can tell).  Guess we'll have to wait and see!


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## mango.man (Dec 14, 2007)

Human Weapon : Taekwondo Airs on Friday December 21 10:00 PM
Jason Chambers and Bill Duff travel to South Korea, birthplace of one of the most acrobatic and physically punishing fighting styles in the world, Taekwondo. Our hosts travel to ancient fortresses, break marble slabs, and learn an insane arsenal of jumping, flying and spinning taekwondo kicks. They'll serve as bodyguards protecting a VIP from potential attack, and channel the fighting spirit of an ancient band of Korean warriors. It's all in service to their ultimate challenge: a full-on Tae Kwon Do battle with a former World Champ.


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## newGuy12 (Dec 14, 2007)

*yes!*


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## exile (Dec 14, 2007)

mango.man said:


> Human Weapon : Taekwondo Airs on Friday December 21 10:00 PM
> Jason Chambers and Bill Duff travel to South Korea, birthplace of one of the most acrobatic and physically punishing fighting styles in the world, Taekwondo. Our hosts travel to ancient fortresses, break marble slabs, and learn an insane arsenal of jumping, flying and spinning taekwondo kicks. They'll serve as bodyguards protecting a VIP from potential attack, and channel the fighting spirit of an ancient band of Korean warriors. It's all in service to their ultimate challenge: a full-on Tae Kwon Do battle with a former World Champ.



Please, _please_ tell me you made that up! I'm not too proud to beg... that's _your_ spoof, right? It's not from the network... _please_... :erg:


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## newGuy12 (Dec 14, 2007)

exile said:


> Please, _please_ tell me you made that up! I'm not too proud to beg... that's _your_ spoof, right? It's not from the network... _please_... :erg:



:lol:

This is either going to be really good, or really bad.


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## exile (Dec 14, 2007)

newGuy12 said:


> :lol:
> 
> This is either going to be really good, or really bad.



I agree... and the odds don't seem to favor really good, at this point... 

Well, it may turn out better than we fear. There'll be plenty of time to despair after next Friday...


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## chrismay101 (Dec 15, 2007)

just checked no its not on well unless they changed the name to "Brunel - the little giant!" 
I think we get things slightly after you guys anyway.


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## HelloKitty (Dec 16, 2007)

we'll wait till next friday then.


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## Laurentkd (Dec 16, 2007)

exile said:


> I agree... and the odds don't seem to favor really good, at this point...
> 
> Well, it may turn out better than we fear. There'll be plenty of time to despair after next Friday...


 

Well maybe if our expectations are really low.... really _really_ low, we won't be disappointed!


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## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 16, 2007)

Well there is some video footage of Bill Duff getting knocked out by a Tae Kwon Do stylist.  It cannot be posted here due to *several rules* (competing forum) but if you search Human Weapon Tae Kwon Do Bill Duff Knockout on Youtube you can watch it.

I am looking forward to this episode as well.


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## IcemanSK (Dec 16, 2007)

I heard an interview with Chambers on the radio here in LA. He said the Taekwondo episode was one of the toughest ones they shot. While not a TKD guy, he had earned a great deal of respect for the talent of the TKD folks he met in Korea.


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## newGuy12 (Dec 16, 2007)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Well there is some video footage of Bill Duff getting knocked out by a Tae Kwon Do stylist.  It cannot be posted here due to *several rules* (competing forum) but if you search Human Weapon Tae Kwon Do Bill Duff Knockout on Youtube you can watch it.
> 
> I am looking forward to this episode as well.



Thanks Brian!

It looks like the name of the video on the youtube.com site is:

"Bill Duff from Human Weapon KO'd by Taekwondo Black Belt"


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## Laurentkd (Dec 16, 2007)

newGuy12 said:


> Thanks Brian!
> 
> It looks like the name of the video on the youtube.com site is:
> 
> "Bill Duff from Human Weapon KO'd by Taekwondo Black Belt"



Sweet!
I just hope it makes the show.  Although if it doesn't I guess it will only prove what most of us believe anyway.... that the experts are told to go easy and/or the footage is edited to make the fight look closer than it really is.


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## newGuy12 (Dec 16, 2007)

Laurentkd said:


> Sweet!
> I just hope it makes the show.  Although if it doesn't I guess it will only prove what most of us believe anyway.... that the experts are told to go easy and/or the footage is edited to make the fight look closer than it really is.



Right.  You can tell that that clip is "unofficial".  It looks like someone was just holding a consumer grade video recorder taping it.  If they don't show this, the show is so "busted"!  They are caught red handed.  They must show it now.  Surely they are aware of this clip on youtube.

Also, I guess this means that we will not see the very interesting TKD, but more of the sporting TKD, though I still may try to see this episode!  It may have some good things in it.


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## AceHBK (Dec 16, 2007)

Arnisador posted it in the Ninjitsu thread.
Bill was on the ground a good while too.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=898138#post898138

It remindes me of this kick...
http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1734335


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## chrismay101 (Dec 16, 2007)

didn't know about this programme called human weapon until i had read this post. made watching the video clip off you tube intresting didn't know about this guy called bill duff so i didn't know which one he was on the clip. but as soon as the fight/sparring started there was only going to be one winner and the bounce style movment ive seen alot of tkd guy's/girls do ITF or WTF.


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## Marginal (Dec 16, 2007)

chrismay101 said:


> didn't know about this programme called human weapon until i had read this post. made watching the video clip off you tube intresting didn't know about this guy called bill duff so i didn't know which one he was on the clip.


Bill goes out and oafs around. Then he magically ties with every fighter he goes up against. Wonder how they'll spin it into a tie this time.


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## IcemanSK (Dec 16, 2007)

Marginal said:


> Bill goes out and oafs around. Then he magically ties with every fighter he goes up against. Wonder how they'll spin it into a tie this time.


 
Maybe they'll say, "Bill saw the floor as a potential opponent. Thinking quickly, he threw a head butt using the back of his head to try to imobilize it."


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## HelloKitty (Dec 18, 2007)

I just saw the video with Bill moving sloooowly and that kind black belt giving him time and space so Bill could try to hit him xD. Even the KO kick was generous xDDD


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## jim777 (Dec 19, 2007)

Sounds good to me, and we did just stock up on microwave popcorn 

Though, after watching this clip, the black belt went RIDICULOUSLY easy on him. No combinations, no backfists to the head following spinning kicks; every shot was one and done. The black belt was fighting at his lopponents evel or a bit above, not going for the kill by any stretch of the imagination.

jim


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## mango.man (Dec 19, 2007)

Given that in the video it appears that they are engaging in WTF style TKD, I would say that "Backfists to the head" were prohibited.

I also read, on another forum, that Michael Tang (http://www.usa-taekwondo.us/92_418.htm) served as a consultant for the episode.

I would say that if you are expecting to see much other than the Olympic Sport side of TKD on this show, you are going to be disappointed.


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## Blindside (Dec 19, 2007)

jim777 said:


> Sounds good to me, and we did just stock up on microwave popcorn
> 
> Though, after watching this clip, the black belt went RIDICULOUSLY easy on him. No combinations, no backfists to the head following spinning kicks; every shot was one and done. The black belt was fighting at his lopponents evel or a bit above, not going for the kill by any stretch of the imagination.
> 
> jim


 
I suspect punches to the head were not allowed, Bill popped that black belt early in the face and was warned about it.


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## HelloKitty (Dec 19, 2007)

jim777 said:


> Though, after watching this clip, the black belt went RIDICULOUSLY easy on him.
> 
> jim


 
In you tube several people were complaining against this same subject. I think it would be worst if the black belt had been hard on Bill, because it's a match against a beginner.


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## AceHBK (Dec 19, 2007)

no one seems to ask or wonder.....

*WHY WAS BILL IN THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE!?!?!*
I would have thought Jason would have done the match.


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## jim777 (Dec 19, 2007)

mango.man said:


> Given that in the video it appears that they are engaging in WTF style TKD, I would say that "Backfists to the head" were prohibited.


 
Ok, I don't usually give much thought to WTF style sparring so I had forgotten that. Must seem extremely odd (and not in a good way) to other non-TKD stylists I would think if it seems odd to me!


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## newGuy12 (Dec 19, 2007)

HelloKitty said:


> In you tube several people were complaining against this same subject. I think it would be worst if the black belt had been hard on Bill, because it's a match against a beginner.



Yes, but those comments on youtube are always to be discounted.  They count for nothing in my mind.  Usually they are just ridiculous! 

Of course those guys are gonna lay back.  To do otherwise would be crazy.  All of those Martial Artists take it easy on those guys.  It would spoil the show otherwise.  Its crazy to have someone have a "match" after so little training!




AceHBK said:


> no one seems to ask or wonder.....
> 
> *WHY WAS BILL IN THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE!?!?!*
> I would have thought Jason would have done the match.


Right.  Jason should have been given the honor.

Looks like I am going to miss out on this show.  I have to attend a belt ceremony at the Dojang friday.  After that, I have been invited to some get-together (nothing to do with the TaeKwonDo).  So, its a bust for me.  I will have to rely on some youtube clips, and the assessments you guys post up.  I could try to have my Mother tape it, but that may be a stretch for her, I'm not sure.

Of course, if its REALLY good, I'll have to make some arrangements to get the whole thing, but I suspect it will not be that good of a show.

You know, I *think* that Duff did land a front kick.  I know, I know, they were taking it easy on him.  He was on the far side.  If you watch that clip though, the kicking motion is obscured.  It was certainly NOT a thundering shock, but I do think that he scored.  If you watch it closely you will see.


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## HelloKitty (Dec 20, 2007)

They repeat the show later on fridays, and sunday evenings.

I'll miss it this friday, at least at 22:00 because I have surgery, so I'll be dizzy lol.


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## jim777 (Dec 20, 2007)

Is this a TV series then, where these guys try to learn a martial art in a week or two or something?


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## exile (Dec 20, 2007)

jim777 said:


> Is this a TV series then, where these guys try to learn a martial art in a week or two or something?



Yup!


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## terryl965 (Dec 20, 2007)

All I know is they are only giving the sport side and no traditional side of the Art which is a sham because it is a added value to those that know nothing about the combat side of TKD.


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## Marginal (Dec 20, 2007)

jim777 said:


> Is this a TV series then, where these guys try to learn a martial art in a week or two or something?


They go challenge an art's champion, then they go on a training hall tour, then either Jason gets beaten up (usually), or Bill ties with the champ.


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## arnisador (Dec 20, 2007)

Yeah, but it's not as bad (or disrespectful!) as it sounds from that description.


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## newGuy12 (Dec 20, 2007)

arnisador said:


> Yeah, but it's not as bad (or disrespectful!) as it sounds from that description.



Haha!  I just had a thought -- start a tv show with two goofs who go around barging into schools and saying, "We are here to kick your butts!"

Hahaha -- it probably wouldn't last for too many episodes!


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## exile (Dec 20, 2007)

newGuy12 said:


> Haha!  I just had a thought -- start a tv show with two goofs who go around barging into schools and saying, "We are here to kick your butts!"
> 
> Hahaha -- it probably wouldn't last for too many episodes!



_It_ might... but _they_ sure wouldn't!! :EG:


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## Laurentkd (Dec 21, 2007)

OK, so they have changed the air date from today to next Thursday!!
I think it plays perfectly into the conspiracy that they are finding a way to edit in Bill Duff recieving the knockout and somehow still winning the match!


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## AceHBK (Dec 21, 2007)

Laurentkd said:


> OK, so they have changed the air date from today to next Thursday!!
> I think it plays perfectly into the conspiracy that they are finding a way to edit in Bill Duff recieving the knockout and somehow still winning the match!


 
Ughhhhh!!! Im upset.  Now I will have to go pop in a dvd to watch tonight.  I was looking forward to this.  They still must be wafting smelling salt under Bill's nose


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## TKDmel (Dec 21, 2007)

Well, at least he "drops" like a pro!


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## FearlessFreep (Dec 21, 2007)

TKDmel said:


> Well, at least he "drops" like a pro!



Lotta practice by now??


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## newGuy12 (Dec 22, 2007)

Laurentkd said:


> OK, so they have changed the air date from today to next Thursday!!
> I think it plays perfectly into the conspiracy that they are finding a way to edit in Bill Duff recieving the knockout and somehow still winning the match!



That guy is a football player, so it should not show too badly on him to be knocked out or to lose.  At least he doesn't quit. 

They cannot get away with any other outcome.  The cat is out of the bag now.  Bill went down.  

I can't help but think that the TKD people thought, "We must knock him out, to show up the other schools."  Hahaha -- I'm just joking about this, of course.


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## terryl965 (Dec 22, 2007)

newGuy12 said:


> That guy is a football player, so it should not show too badly on him to be knocked out or to lose. At least he doesn't quit.
> 
> They cannot get away with any other outcome. The cat is out of the bag now. Bill went down.
> 
> I can't help but think that the TKD people thought, "We must knock him out, to show up the other schools." Hahaha -- I'm just joking about this, of course.


 

Sure you are


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## newGuy12 (Dec 22, 2007)

:d


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## jim777 (Dec 25, 2007)

How is that a joke?! :lol: A TKD master should be able to knock that guy unconscious in less than a minute, right? I have a 30 year old 4th Dan instructor who started when he was 5 (Merry Christmas Master Frasier!), and he could lay that guy flat out in 10 seconds tops no problem. I guess I need to watch the show and more often and get a feel for it. It seems kind of silly to me, but I'm definitely open to anything that brings in an additional audience to the martial arts in general. Just seems kinda goofy from what I understand of the premise! :lol:


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## IcemanSK (Dec 26, 2007)

jim777 said:


> How is that a joke?! :lol: A TKD master should be able to knock that guy unconscious in less than a minute, right? I have a 30 year old 4th Dan instructor who started when he was 5 (Merry Christmas Master Frasier!), and he could lay that guy flat out in 10 seconds tops no problem. I guess I need to watch the show and more often and get a feel for it. It seems kind of silly to me, but I'm definitely open to anything that brings in an additional audience to the martial arts in general. Just seems kinda goofy from what I understand of the premise! :lol:


 
The joke unfortuneatly (sp?) is that the show tends to frame each match as "Bill nearly won" as he fights the local master, regardless of both he & Jason having about a week of training in each art. I agree with you, Jim. It's quite likely that it would take mere moments for a KO to happen in any Art they showed.


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## YoungMan (Dec 26, 2007)

I'd hate to think any of those styles would need the attention enough to let Bill or Jason endure for more than a few minutes. Certainly TKD doesn't need the attention.
Now, if it were me, I would have KO'd the bugger ASAP just to show it could be done and negative attention be damned
Then I'd say "Who's next?"


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## IcemanSK (Dec 26, 2007)

YoungMan said:


> I'd hate to think any of those styles would need the attention enough to let Bill or Jason endure for more than a few minutes. Certainly TKD doesn't need the attention.
> Now, if it were me, I would have KO'd the bugger ASAP just to show it could be done and negative attention be damned
> Then I'd say "Who's next?"


 
I appreciate your conviction, but the idea of the show is expose the viewers to parts of an Art that they may never have seen before. A lot of folks think they know what, say Judo, is all about, but this (hopefully) gives them a better idea. Like a travel show that goes to many different places. To build drama, they have two guys with varying degrees of MA prowess to train & match the local master at the end. If it were a cooking show, the host would taste the local food he/she watched or helped being prepared. 

The hard part is that we train daily for years in the Art we're watching, so we know the likely outcome. I don't think we can take it personally when they call a "close" match when our Art gets unique exposure like this.

I've seen positive results from the "Human Weapon" show. My 16 year old nephew has watched & trained with me in TKD & boxing his whole life. He's only had mild interest in it. A month ago, he watched the episode on Silat & was hooked! Over all, I think this show it a good thing.


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## arnisador (Dec 26, 2007)

IcemanSK said:


> I appreciate your conviction, but the idea of the show is expose the viewers to parts of an Art that they may never have seen before. A lot of folks think they know what, say Judo, is all about, but this (hopefully) gives them a better idea. Like a travel show



I think that's a good attitude...along with "believe half of what you see" at most. It's made to sell soap, folks, not for the likes of us.


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## Marginal (Dec 26, 2007)

I still don't see why it's required to make the art look ineffective at the end of each episode by giving Bill a free pass every week. Does Bill losing somehow make the art seem less attractive to random non MA people?


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## IcemanSK (Dec 26, 2007)

Marginal said:


> I still don't see why it's required to make the art look ineffective at the end of each episode by giving Bill a free pass every week. Does Bill losing somehow make the art seem less attractive to random non MA people?


 
I'm sure that is simply because Bill & Jason are the "stars" of the show. Can't make your talent look bad.


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## terryl965 (Dec 26, 2007)

The exposure would be great if it is done with what true TKD is, my feeling is we are only going to get the sport side of TKD and that will help generate more kids into the Art but we need more adults seeing the value of what TKD can be.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 27, 2007)

This show airs tonight at 6 pm.  They changed the time from their regular slot on Friday night at 9pm.  I did see it this afternoon at 12 noon and it was pretty good!


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## Marginal (Dec 27, 2007)

IcemanSK said:


> I'm sure that is simply because Bill & Jason are the "stars" of the show. Can't make your talent look bad.


Jason loses quite a bit. Bill's another story.


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## AceHBK (Dec 27, 2007)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> This show airs tonight at 6 pm. They changed the time from their regular slot on Friday night at 9pm. I did see it this afternoon at 12 noon and it was pretty good!


 

I forgot it comes on tonight and see that 6pm is early and lucky I saw this thread and your post. 

This must mean it will get cancelled.  When you start changing times and days that is usually the sign of show cancellation death


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## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 27, 2007)

AceHBK said:


> I forgot it comes on tonight and see that 6pm is early and lucky I saw this thread and your post.
> 
> This must mean it will get cancelled. When you start changing times and days that is usually the sign of show cancellation death


 
Could be!


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## terryl965 (Dec 27, 2007)

Brian did you happen to tape it or anybody for that matter. I'm at the school with classes and forgot to set the DVR.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 27, 2007)

terryl965 said:


> Brian did you happen to tape it or anybody for that matter. I'm at the school with classes and forgot to set the DVR.


 
I'm taping it and watching it as we speak or type!


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## AceHBK (Dec 27, 2007)

Ok...wow..

Well to all those that watched..notice it took TKD to easily stop both hosts  

Now someone tell my why.....*the first kick they learn is a tornado kick??????????*
I mean why not the push kick then a roundhouse kick, etc....
I know as a show you want to show the flashy stuff but rightere kids is why instructors teach you simple kicks first....so u don't go out there and do it wrong and hurt yaself!!

Maybe if they would have learned how to do a roundhouse kick to start they could have scored at least 1 point.

Bill went down like a ton of bricks...lol!  I knew sooner or later someone would get him back for all those illegal punches to the head that he does in the final competitions.

I am glad Jason brought up question about why not whipping your head around to execute the horse kick/back kick.   I guess if you catch the leg then it works better than if you don't catch it.

The episode was pretty much what I thought it would be and I must say I enjoyed it.  Too bad for Jason and Bill they didn't learn any fundamentals. (i.e. beginner kicks and.....keeping your hands up!!!)

Any thought on their choice of Masters?

Also, if Hwarangdo is so close to TKD why isn't it mentioned as much as TKD?


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## HelloKitty (Dec 27, 2007)

By any chance do u know if they will repeat this chapter again? On Sunday or something? I remembered it was at 6:00 pm but we are central time, so I came one hour late pfff...!


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## YoungMan (Dec 27, 2007)

I imagine because if the ultimate aim of the episode is to prepare them to fight a Tae Kwon Do champion, get them acquainted with the kicks they would need to fight him. Remember, it wasn't an introduction to basic TKD, it was training to fight a tournament competitor.
It was pretty cool watching Bill Duff going down like a sack of spuds (although I'm sure he felt differently!).
Too bad Jason's knee gave out.
I thought the Taekkyon lessons were really cool. With minor variations, that's exactly how we used to practice the back side kick. Same footwork and everything. Pretty spooky. But it just reinforced to me that what we practice is truly descended from Taekkyon.


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## AceHBK (Dec 27, 2007)

YoungMan said:


> I imagine because if the ultimate aim of the episode is to prepare them to fight a Tae Kwon Do champion, get them acquainted with the kicks they would need to fight him. Remember, it wasn't an introduction to basic TKD, it was training to fight a tournament competitor.
> It was pretty cool watching Bill Duff going down like a sack of spuds (although I'm sure he felt differently!).
> Too bad Jason's knee gave out.
> I thought the Taekkyon lessons were really cool. With minor variations, that's exactly how we used to practice the back side kick. Same footwork and everything. Pretty spooky. But it just reinforced to me that what we practice is truly descended from Taekkyon.


 

But with tournaments you will end up doing some roundhouse, axe, push, spin whip and back kicks.  Rarely do most people use those flashy and longer to develop kicks.

Shoulda left the flashy stuff for students to show.  I mean teach them but that was their main move along with push kick.  I could hear my master in my ear when Jason's knee went out "And you see why Marcus I will not teach you certain kicks till you learn how to do the main one's correct first.  Mess around and hurt yourself and do some real damage."

I know I shouldnt have but I couldnt help laughing when I saw Bill go down.  

Really?  I always learned to make sure to whip your head around to make sure u know where opponent is and aim kick.  Like I said I think if you grab a leg then you may not have to look b/c your gabbing and pulling while you kicking.

Yeah great history lesson.


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## arnisador (Dec 27, 2007)

terryl965 said:


> Brian did you happen to tape it or anybody for that matter. I'm at the school with classes and forgot to set the DVR.



It'll be re-shown all week. That's one reason I am less concerned than usual that the time slot change presages cancellation as it so often does.


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## AceHBK (Dec 27, 2007)

arnisador said:


> It'll be re-shown all week. That's one reason I am less concerned than usual that the time slot change presages cancellation as it so often does.


 
I went to the website and yahoo tv but it doesnt seem to be showing anymore.  It said that it first aired today at 12pm and then again at 6pm.  It has no other shows listed and on yahoo tv there are no other episodes showing when I was looking for a future date.


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## arnisador (Dec 27, 2007)

Could it be the end of the season? There have already been over a dozen episodes.


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## AceHBK (Dec 27, 2007)

arnisador said:


> Could it be the end of the season? There have already been over a dozen episodes.


 
lol...your guess is as good as mine....BUT wait...this is suppose to be the *2nd season*!!!

I don't know how since the show didnt start till July but they said it is the second season.

I am thinking it is a conspiracy....the anti TKD group lobbyed to have the show time and day changed all of a sudden and now you can't find out if it will show again.   C-O-N-spiracy


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## exile (Dec 27, 2007)

YoungMan said:


> But it just reinforced to me that *what we practice is truly descended from Taekkyon.*



Again, it's not. To repeat: Taekkyon itself died out in the late 19th c. in Korea as a widespread activity; it never had the status of a martial art; a new MA packaged as taekkyon was created in the mid-20th c. with no demonstrable connection to the folk foot wrestling game that taekkyon consisted of in the 19th c.; supposedly early documentary mention of taekkyon are actually references to takkyon 'push-shoulders', a generic term referring to unbalancing movements rather than a specific MA, and so on. Specialized MA historians&#8212;Stanley Henning, Dakin Burdick, Steve Capener, Manuel Adrogues and others in their mostly _peer reviewed_ publications (_Journal of Asian Martial Arts_; I've given you the specific references elsewhere so it shouldn't be necessary to repeat them, eh? ) with competence in Chinese, Japanese and Korean have examined the complete documentary record as we currently have it and found absolutely no role for taekkyon in the formation of modern TKD; and this conclusion is supported in the writing of Gm. S. Henry Cho(_Taekwondo: Secrets of Korean Karate_, 1968) and Gm. Kim Soo
(in his interview in the January _Black Belt_).

If you're privy to some new cache of documention that shows that contrary to all currently known evidence, taekkyon had a significant input into current TKD, please provide us with the sources. If not, then all you're doing is repeating unsupported dojang folklore and KMA legends&#8212;never the sort of thing recommended for maintenance of one's credibility.


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## HelloKitty (Dec 28, 2007)

AceHBK said:


> I went to the website and yahoo tv but it doesnt seem to be showing anymore. It said that it first aired today at 12pm and then again at 6pm. It has no other shows listed and on yahoo tv there are no other episodes showing when I was looking for a future date.


 
Same here. I finally downloaded it and my husband and I just saw it. We liked the show, it could be a lot worst, lol.


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## arnisador (Dec 28, 2007)

exile said:


> Again, it's not. To repeat: Taekkyon itself died out in the late 19th c. in Korea as a widespread activity; it never had the status of a martial art; a new MA packaged as taekkyon was created in the mid-20th c. with no demonstrable connection to the folk foot wrestling game that taekkyon consisted of in the 19th c.; supposedly early documentary mention of taekkyon are actually references to takkyon 'push-shoulders', a generic term referring to unbalancing movements rather than a specific MA, and so on. Specialized MA historiansStanley Henning, Dakin Burdick, Steve Capener, Manuel Adrogues and others in their mostly _peer reviewed_ publications (_Journal of Asian Martial Arts_; I've given you the specific references elsewhere so it shouldn't be necessary to repeat them, eh? ) with competence in Chinese, Japanese and Korean have examined the complete documentary record as we currently have it and found absolutely no role for taekkyon in the formation of modern TKD; and this conclusion is supported in the writing of Gm. S. Henry Cho(_Taekwondo: Secrets of Korean Karate_, 1968) and Gm. Kim Soo
> (in his interview in the January _Black Belt_).
> 
> If you're privy to some new cache of documention that shows that contrary to all currently known evidence, taekkyon had a significant input into current TKD, please provide us with the sources. If not, then all you're doing is repeating unsupported dojang folklore and KMA legendsnever the sort of thing recommended for maintenance of one's credibility.



This is pretty much what my understanding is. The original TKD was barely varnished Shotokan Karate. For reasons of national pride it was necessary to put a stronger coat of "Korean" on it. Pictures of Taek Kyon were available though the "art" itself was mostly just a memory. The pictures and some terminology were used to help build a story that there was a deep connection to Korea's past in this art. It just wasn't so. The art is now certainly distinct from Karate, but the stories are just that.


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## terryl965 (Dec 28, 2007)

arnisador said:


> This is pretty much what my understanding is. The original TKD was barely varnished Shotokan Karate. For reasons of national pride it was necessary to put a stronger coat of "Korean" on it. Pictures of Taek Kyon were available though the "art" itself was mostly just a memory. The pictures and some terminology were used to help build a story that there was a deep connection to Korea's past in this art. It just wasn't so. The art is now certainly distinct from Karate, but the stories are just that.


 
The last line stries are just that, rings a bell to every TKD individual I know. Man just say what the truth is, it was developed for the Koreans to have there own destiny in the Arts. Is that just to hard to say.


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## exile (Dec 28, 2007)

arnisador said:


> This is pretty much what my understanding is. The original TKD was barely varnished Shotokan Karate. For reasons of national pride it was necessary to put a stronger coat of "Korean" on it. Pictures of Taek Kyon were available though the "art" itself was mostly just a memory. The pictures and some terminology were used to help build a story that there was a deep connection to Korea's past in this art. It just wasn't so. The art is now certainly distinct from Karate, but the stories are just that.





terryl965 said:


> The last line stries are just that, rings a bell to every TKD individual I know. Man just say what the truth is, it was developed for the Koreans to have there own destiny in the Arts. Is that just to hard to say.



You've both summed it up exactly (IOU both rep, but you're both still on my current rep cycle). And the interesting thing is, there are plenty of senior Korean MAists who will candidly acknowledge that no, the legendary ancient lineage tales are, indeed, just dojang folktales; both of the ones I've mentioned are very straight about this, and there are others. But the (understandable) resentment of the brutality of Japanese occupation amongst its Korean victims led certain individuals to what I regard as a near- (or fully) pathological level of denial, such as that instructor Gm. Kim Soo mentions in his current-issue _Black Belt_ interview who was on the verge of physical violence when Gm. Kim, then a student, mentioned that his dojang lineage orginated with a Japanese master karateka.  

I've read all kinds of apologetics and rationales for this sort of revisionism, including what I regard as the seriously dangerous idea that people have the right to believe what they want to if it makes them feel good. Talk about a slippery slope, eh? The point is, it's a total package: if you want the truth, then you have to be willing to face it even when it makes you feel bad; the price you pay for bending the truth when you don't like it&#8212;even when you're completely morally justified in disliking it&#8212;is that you have no grounds for complaining when someone else bends the truth in a way that makes _you_ the bad guy, as long as it makes _them_ feel good. The great irony in this case is that at a deeper level, the KMAs can derive their ancestry further back than Japan, back to Okinawa and China, where the ancestral arts that gave rise to Japanese karate were forged. And those countries suffered from the same terrible cruelty that the Koreans experienced themselves at the hands of the Japanese, or even worse in some cases (think of the mass live burials of citizens of Nanking). 

What we need is someone to do for the history of TKD what Harry Cook has done for the history of Shotokan: construct a massively documented, meticulously honest and detailed history of the art that teases out the various contributions of the players, both famous and obscure, going back as far as the documentary record allows. People like Capener, Burdick, Henning and Adroguès have made an excellent start, but clearly their work hasn't gotten the attention from the general KMA audience that it deserves...


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## chrismay101 (Dec 29, 2007)

Do any of you guys know a site I can download this episode?


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## YoungMan (Dec 29, 2007)

Watching the way the Taekkyon guys executed technique (front kick, back roundhouse kick, jumping kicks, roundhouse kicks, side kicks), it was almost exactly the way we were taught to do it when I was coming up in Chung Do Kwan. That's how we did technique. We practiced the back sidekick step (shift away, turn, then shift toward) exactly like that. Only difference is we didn't kick like the mule kick. Everything else was the same.
Now, if the Taekkyon practiced today is little like the Taekkyon of 500 years ago (I suspect it is quite similar), but is still considered Taekkyon, then so be it. As far as I'm concerned, based on the techniques I saw on Human Weapon and knowing how we trained in Tae Kwon Do, the stuff I was taught to do is directly descended from Taekkyon. Videos I have seen on Youtube bear me out. Not everything is the same, mind you, but much of it is.
Now, what I suspect is happening is students of Jidokwan, Changmookwan, Moodukkwan, and most of the others had no experience in Taekkyon and so, to them, their version of Tae Kwon Do would simply be Koreanized Japanese karate.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 29, 2007)

YoungMan said:


> Watching the way the Taekkyon guys executed technique (front kick, back roundhouse kick, jumping kicks, roundhouse kicks, side kicks), it was almost exactly the way we were taught to do it when I was coming up in Chung Do Kwan. That's how we did technique. We practiced the back sidekick step (shift away, turn, then shift toward) exactly like that. Only difference is we didn't kick like the mule kick. Everything else was the same.
> Now, if the Taekkyon practiced today is little like the Taekkyon of 500 years ago (I suspect it is quite similar), but is still considered Taekkyon, then so be it. As far as I'm concerned, based on the techniques I saw on Human Weapon and knowing how we trained in Tae Kwon Do, the stuff I was taught to do is directly descended from Taekkyon. Videos I have seen on Youtube bear me out. Not everything is the same, mind you, but much of it is.
> Now, what I suspect is happening is students of Jidokwan, Changmookwan, Moodukkwan, and most of the others had no experience in Taekkyon and so, to them, their version of Tae Kwon Do would simply be Koreanized Japanese karate.


 
I would say it is almost improbably the reverse in that the Tae Kyon you see today is probably descended from students who practiced Tae Kwon Do the way you did back then. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  Judging by how things are reworked in Korea I think this is a fairly safe bet!


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## YoungMan (Dec 29, 2007)

We'll probably never know, since they didn't have cameras 500 years ago! I have read anecdotal stories of Taekkyon students doing leg techniques we would recognize, and holding matches where kicking the head earned the highest point.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 29, 2007)

The Korean Martial Arts are great and I enjoy them very much.  Still I wish the history would come out truthfully.  People like Exile and I enjoy hearing and knowing the truth rather than reworked history or imagination.  Still both of us love the Korean arts even if I have moved on a bit!


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## YoungMan (Dec 29, 2007)

Thing I find ironic:

Jason and Bill (who I thoroughly enjoy watching btw) have traveled to several countries and experienced judo, karate, muay thai, escrima, to name a few. In that time, the worst they ever suffered fighting skilled fighters was a few bumps and bruises.
It was a Tae Kwon Do fighter, representing an art many people scoff at, who did what had not been done before: knock out one of the hosts on his own show. And I don't mean Bill gets hit and stumbles around a bit, I mean stone cold knocked out.
Maybe now people will realize what Tae Kwon Do can do.


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## exile (Dec 29, 2007)

YoungMan said:


> Now, if the Taekkyon practiced today is little like the Taekkyon of 500 years ago (I suspect it is quite similar), but is still considered Taekkyon, then so be it.



It's not 'considered' Taekkyon; it's _called_ taekkyon by those who do it, which is very different. As I  mentioned at one point, there is a version of modern Kenpo which is called Shaolin Temple Kenpo. And if you believe that it has any historical connection whatever to what the Shaolin monks were doing in the seventh century or whenever it supposedly was that Bhodidharma taught them the basis of their MA (whatever that was), well, I've got a bridge that I'm forced to sell a considerable sacrifice that I'm sure you'll want to consider purchasing! 




YoungMan said:


> As far as I'm concerned, based on the techniques I saw on Human Weapon and knowing how we trained in Tae Kwon Do, the stuff I was taught to do is directly descended from Taekkyon.



Your criterion for deciding a matter of historical fact is what you saw in a brief segment on a one-hour popular entertainment television show??

The point is, YM, what you saw cannot possibly provide you with the evidence that would justify that conclusion. If you see something called Taekkyon and it looks like something you did in TKD, those facts _by themselves_ give you no justification for drawing any conclusion whatever about the relationship between the two. First of all, nothing you saw on _HW_ establishes the time depth of taekkyon at all, _does_ it. To do that, you'd need to review the documentary history of the Korean MAs and look at what recorded oral materials there are from earlier time periods that bore on the question. And that is exactly what the MA historians I mentioned in my previous posts have done, reading the available Chinese, Japanese and Korean sources and analyzing the evidence they contain. And as I pointed out, there is virtually no mention of taekkyon earlier that the 19th century; when people talk about 'ancient' taekkyon, they are, as Stanley Henning demonstrates in the paper I cited, confusing the transliteration of _taekkyon_ (which appears in no old records) from that of _takkyon_, meaning 'push-shoulders', a generic label for unbalancing moves (as vs. striking with the hand or using weapons). And what contemporary records we have are, as Steve Capener documents in the source I cited, unanimous that taekkyon was a folk leg-wrestling contest practiced at village festivals, where it was the basis for much gambling activity, and was actively suppressed by the Japanese early on during their extended occupation of Korea, starting with the last quarter of the 19th c., though it only became official thirty years later. We also know that taekkyon was 'revived' by KMAists during the post-Cold War era who were surrounded by thousands of people doing kicking techniques representing extensions of the Shotokan/Shudokan kicks that the Kwan founders had brought back from Japan with their freshly minted dan ranks in those JMAs. And then, surprise surpise, we find devotees of this newly-hatched `taekkyon' doing the same kinds of kicks as the premier KMA of the time, heavily sponsored and promoted by the military dictatorship that ruled Korea for 18 years in the post-Korean War era, and on this basis you form the belief that you're seeing the demonstration of an ancient KMA that TKD descended from?? :lol:




YoungMan said:


> Videos I have seen on Youtube bear me out. Not everything is the same, mind you, but much of it is.



Bears you out?? How do YouTube demos bear that picture out any more than the _Human Weapon_ program bears it out?? Exactly what evidence do those videos contain which is incompatible with the known, documented invention of a new Korean MA using pieces of technique already available from TKD (including kicks traceable to karate kicking techniques),named after an earlier leg-wrestling form of contest which had been, according to all reliable sources, virtually extinct by the early 20th century? Would you care to identify just what it was in those YouTube videos that offers dramatically new evidence on the point? 

Or was it just that the kicks in what was described in those videos 'looked like' what you learned in your TKD classes? Because if it was the latter, you got no case, none at all, given what the actual historical evidence base which I've given you detailed references to shows.




YoungMan said:


> Now, what I suspect is happening is students of Jidokwan, Changmookwan, Moodukkwan, and most of the others had no experience in Taekkyon and so, to them, their version of Tae Kwon Do would simply be Koreanized Japanese karate.



Given the facts that their Kwan founders received publically acknowledged black belts in Japanese karate systems from prominent instructors, given the fact that early curricula of all the original Kwans incorporated classic Okinawan-derived kata such as the Taikyoku (Kichos) Pinan/Heian set (Pyung-Ahn), Empi (Eunbi), Naihanchi, Bassai (Balsek), Rohai and many others, that the techniques taught in these Kwans were _called_ karate in Korean (tang soo do and kong soo do, the actual names of the arts taught, are the translations into Korean of the two different transliterations of kara-te, 'empty hand'/'China hand'), ... etc. etc. etc..... I'd say that your suspicions are pretty much without any factual foundation whatever. I'd say further that this kinds of evidence makes it pretty clear that the students of the early Kwans regarded their art as Korean karate because, as Gm. Kim Soo points out in his current-issue interview in _Black Belt_, that's exactly what it was, and they recognized the same techniques they were doing when they saw karate techniques demo'd. Of course, since every one of their first-generation instructors had _learned_ karate from the Okinawan expats whom they studied with in Japan, it would have been a little weird for them to come to any any other conclusion _anyway_, right? For heaven's sake, my own TKD lineage, Song Moo Kwan, one of the original five, is almost a word-for-word translation into Korean of Shotokan: shoto ('waving pines', taken by Gichin Funakoshi as his nom de plume for the poetry he wrote) +kan ('house, (training) hall') <---> Song ('Pine Tree') + Moo ('martial') + Kwan ('school, training hall'), not surprising given the fact that Byung Jik Ro, who founded it, was a fourth dan under Funakoshi before returning to Seoul at the end of the 1930s.

In and of itself, a suspicion is nothing but a hunch, and has no standing with respect to a factual question; until you can find some solid evidence to support it, a hunch is nothing but an incidental aspect of your biography. It's about you, not the history of TKD (or anything else). We all have hunches, all the time, and most of them probably are incorrect, but whether they're correct or not, they _do not signify_ so far as judging factual issues one way or another. They're useful only in providing us with a starting point, a direction, for pursuing those issues. In this case, there is a lot of historical evidence and argumentation bearing in the questions at hand, evidence your posts make it clear you're unaware of. Maybe it would be better for you to actually look into that evidence a bit before forming such 'suspicions' on the basis of an hour-long television series about a pair of wandering martial arts guys spending a week cramming for an 'exam' on each of a fairly large number of different martial arts, apart from the YouTube videos you mentioned....


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## CuongNhuka (Dec 29, 2007)

As has probably been mentioned before, I loved watching Bill get flattened. Let's just hope that this reigns in a new era in the Martial Arts TV show were reality existes. And by that, I mean the stupid American with little training gets used as a mop when he fights the Asian guy who has been training all his life.


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## Cruentus (Dec 30, 2007)

YoungMan said:


> Thing I find ironic:
> 
> Jason and Bill (who I thoroughly enjoy watching btw) have traveled to several countries and experienced judo, karate, muay thai, escrima, to name a few. In that time, the worst they ever suffered fighting skilled fighters was a few bumps and bruises.
> It was a Tae Kwon Do fighter, representing an art many people scoff at, who did what had not been done before: knock out one of the hosts on his own show. And I don't mean Bill gets hit and stumbles around a bit, I mean stone cold knocked out.
> Maybe now people will realize what Tae Kwon Do can do.



The knockout had more to do with the rules of the game, the player (in this case one talented at this type of game against Bill), and the situation rather then the art, though. The same could have happened in a boxing match, for example.


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## terryl965 (Dec 30, 2007)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> The Korean Martial Arts are great and I enjoy them very much. Still I wish the history would come out truthfully. People like Exile and I enjoy hearing and knowing the truth rather than reworked history or imagination. Still both of us love the Korean arts even if I have moved on a bit!


 
You know I'm with you and Exile too. I love the Korean Arts and my GM will set you down and tell you no TKD is not from 500 years ago, it is from the mid fifties and hust accept it. Thae Art is young, so what the Art has alot of great aspect to it. Please lets all work together to bring the truth to the forefront.


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## terryl965 (Dec 30, 2007)

exile said:


> It's not 'considered' Taekkyon; it's _called_ taekkyon by those who do it, which is very different. As I mentioned at one point, there is a version of modern Kenpo which is called Shaolin Temple Kenpo. And if you believe that it has any historical connection whatever to what the Shaolin monks were doing in the seventh century or whenever it supposedly was that Bhodidharma taught them the basis of their MA (whatever that was), well, I've got a bridge that I'm forced to sell a considerable sacrifice that I'm sure you'll want to consider purchasing!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

Great post as always and you have really hit on alot of points here. in February we need to set down and talk for like 10 days.


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## exile (Dec 30, 2007)

terryl965 said:


> ...in February we need to set down and talk for like 10 days.



Terry, I'm really looking forward to doing that!!


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## terryl965 (Dec 30, 2007)

exile said:


> Terry, I'm really looking forward to doing that!!


 
Thanks Exile as you know we need to make TKD here in the US, for the US. To do this we need to be able to tell the truth from the lies.


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## exile (Dec 30, 2007)

terryl965 said:


> Thanks Exile as you know we need to make TKD here in the US, for the US. To do this we need to be able to tell the truth from the lies.



_Exactly,_ Terry. That's the crucial point. The Koreans are perfectly entitled to develop their view of the art that they adopted and adapted from Japanese sources (just as the Japanese did from Okinawan, and the Okinawans in part from China... diffusion and modification are the name of the game in the MAs, eh?) But their national aspirations don't necessarily result in a take on the MAs which people from other countries, with their own histories and concerns, will buy into, and that means that we may well have to exercise the option to part company from current WTF/KKW perspectives on the future of the art. It's not a matter of forcing anyone to go along with this&#8212;anyone who wants to continue to travel with the Korean TKD management is just as free and welcome to do so as ever. But if a certain fraction of the TKD community feels the need to adopt a different approach, that too is allowed! 

This has happened repeatedly in the history of the KMAs. TSD split off from TKD, in the Choi era; TKD split into KKW and ITF after Choi fell from grace in Korea... enforced unity has never worked in the MAs, and never will.


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## AceHBK (Dec 30, 2007)

You guys have provided a lot of info that I didn't know...thank you.

Also, did you guys learn/do u teach to perform tornado kicks the way the showed in the episode?  I was taught not to get so much air in the jump b/c of course it makes it slower.


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## HelloKitty (Dec 30, 2007)

chrismay101 said:


> Do any of you guys know a site I can download this episode?


 
I found the .torrent file in "the pirate bay".


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## IcemanSK (Dec 30, 2007)

Ok, I don't have cable tv, so I've not seen the episode. So, is it worth buying on DVD?


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## terryl965 (Dec 30, 2007)

IcemanSK said:


> Ok, I don't have cable tv, so I've not seen the episode. So, is it worth buying on DVD?


 
No save your money.


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## AceHBK (Dec 30, 2007)

IcemanSK said:


> Ok, I don't have cable tv, so I've not seen the episode. So, is it worth buying on DVD?


 
I agree with Terry....save your money.
I'll find a way for you to see it.


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## YoungMan (Dec 31, 2007)

Over the last several years, something I have tried to do is cross reference the content of Tae Kyon, since many people say it led to Tae Kwon Do, while just as many people say it didn't.
What I have is consistant proof through video footage and written text that Tae Kyon gave Tae Kwon Do many of the kicking techniques it now uses.
Why do I make that statement?
1. Consistant footage on Youtube (a great resource btw) that shows Taekyon fighters doing the same kicking attacks (many of the same kicking anyway) modern TKD uses. These include: roundhouse, stepping attacks, spinning kicks, jumping kicks, and jump spinning kicks.
2. The footage from Human Weapon that shows Jason and Bill doing leg techniques that agree with the footage I have seen previously.
3. Written text that corroborates the above.
4. The way we did techniques in my organization that seemed to directly reflect this influence.

Now it can be argued that early TKD was very derivative of Shotokan, more or less depending on your Kwan. My argument is that modern TKD directly stems from Taekkyon. I have seen too much proof to believe otherwise.
Now, if the argument is that TKD and Taekkyon either had nothing to do with each other, or TKD and TK influenced each other (possible), my question is Where Did Those Techniques Come From? Japanese karate doesn't teach technique like that. A viewing of Human Weapon-Karate will prove that. And a martial art born out Shotokan would not do that either. If you don't learn kicking like that, how would you know to do it? To me, the only plausible explanation is that TK was either there from the beginning or strongly influenced later on. It is well known that the Chung Do Kwan people consciously wanted to purge TKD of Japanese influence and technique. Fair enough. What do you replace it with? If you purposely implant TKD with TK technique to Koreanize it, then it can be rightly said that modern TKD is a direct descendant of TK. Again, the only other explanation is that TK technique was there from the beginning.


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## jks9199 (Dec 31, 2007)

YoungMan said:


> Over the last several years, something I have tried to do is cross reference the content of Tae Kyon, since many people say it led to Tae Kwon Do, while just as many people say it didn't.
> What I have is consistant proof through video footage and written text that Tae Kyon gave Tae Kwon Do many of the kicking techniques it now uses.
> Why do I make that statement?
> 1. Consistant footage on Youtube (a great resource btw) that shows Taekyon fighters doing the same kicking attacks (many of the same kicking anyway) modern TKD uses. These include: roundhouse, stepping attacks, spinning kicks, jumping kicks, and jump spinning kicks.
> ...



That's pretty circular proof...  Your "consistent YouTube footage" could all be from one person or from people who learned in your organization, or even simply mislabeled.  The Human Weapon footage is really nothing but more of the same.  Your written texts would need to be cited -- and I'd argue that they aren't really much evidence unless they're in Korean, or otherwise document historic Taekyon in context.

Suggesting that the techniques are similar isn't much support, either.  I could equally well argue that Mauy Thai or Savate influenced TKD, because either style also has some of those same techniques.

I don't have a dog in this fight; TKD is not my style.  I do suspect that indigenous Korean fighting approaches influenced the well-document Shotokan basis of Tae Kwon Do.  While I'm sure many indigenous systems were suppressed -- I'm equally certain that many were more quietly preserved.  A friend of mine learned a style of Tae Kwon Do that had little resemblance to modern TKD when his father was stationed in Korea; the best he knows is that it was a family system, taught to him by a neighbor who didn't belong to any of the existing TKD federations/organizations.


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## YoungMan (Dec 31, 2007)

If you Google Taek kyon, one of the articles you get is a series written by Robert Young, who is a well-established martial arts writer. I think he writes for Black Belt, but don't quote me on that.
All the Youtube Tae Kyon footage I saw was filmed in Korea and is in Korean. Some of it is from organized Tae Kyon tournaments, other footage is individual Tae Kyon training. There is a great deal of the unique footwork-triangular, dancelike, shifting back and forth-as well as the kicking I mentioned previously. Much of the kicking involves to the legs, as well as push kicking used by the WTF. But there are also high kicks we would recognize, jumping front kicks, jump spinning kicks etc.


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## exile (Dec 31, 2007)

YoungMan said:


> Over the last several years, something I have tried to do is cross reference the content of Tae Kyon, since many people say it led to Tae Kwon Do, while just as many people say it didn't.
> What I have is consistant proof through video footage and written text that Tae Kyon gave Tae Kwon Do many of the kicking techniques it now uses.
> Why do I make that statement?
> 1. Consistant footage on Youtube (a great resource btw) that shows Taekyon fighters doing the same kicking attacks (many of the same kicking anyway) modern TKD uses. These include: roundhouse, stepping attacks, spinning kicks, jumping kicks, and jump spinning kicks.
> ...



I feel a bit strange having to repeat this... I'd have though it were fairly obvious: you cannot use the resemblance between what you are calling Taekyon and TKD to argue that techs from the former were the ancestor of techs from the latter. We have documentary and living-witness attestation that 19th c.  taekkyon was essentially extinct early in the 20th c. The 'taekkyon' that you are talking about in connection with TKD there has to be the 'revivalist' art that adopted the name of the earlier form and developed in the post-Korean War era. And what you are claiming is that this art was the source of the resemblant kicks in TKD. But your only evidence for this account of the fact of the resemblance you cite is the resemblance itself! You are leaving out the very thing you need to make your argument work: _evidence_ that 'taekkyon' was the source of TKD's kicking techs. Do you see what I'm getting at? If you show me two papers written by two different students, A and B, that were handed into two different classes and are word-for-word identical, you cannot say, well, the word-for-word identity is proof that A copied the paper from B. To do that you have to show that the other possibilities&#8212;that B copied from A, or that both A and B copied from the third source&#8212;are ruled out. That's exactly the thing you aren't doing in your series of posts. All you're doing is in effect shoving the papers into my face and saying, 'But isn't it obvious that A copied from B? Look, they're identical!!' 

Given the demography of TKD participation vs. Taekkyon participation, given the early and relentless development of TKD as a point-scoring martial sport and the scoring systems and judging practices that came to reward higher and more flamboyant kicks, and given the training backgrounds of the Kwan founders, their first and second generation students, the case for Taekkyon as the source of TKD's techs is about as weak as you can imagine&#8212;particularly because we have a nice control: sport karate undewent the same evolution in its kicks, departing from the low, mean leg techs of the Okinawan source art to the point where high flashy kicks are as common in sport Shotokan competition as they are in Olympic TKD. If you award points for accurate strike to higher targets using techically more difficult moves, and if you tend to ignore less spectacular techniques in favor of the big-ticket spinning/aerial ones, then you are going to get the kinds of kicks we see in both Olympic TKD and sport Karate. 

And again, maybe 'many people' say that Taekkyon lead to TKD, but no marital arts historians who have actually _studied the question_ and published their findings in peer-reviewed journals believe that. Many people also believe that Uri Geller was able to bend spoons with 'mind power',  that the Bermuda Triangle contains an evil force which eats boats, and that they can channel the spirits of their distant royal Egyptian ancestors. What people say doesn't signify unless they can offer coherent, noncircular argumentation to support it. And to date, neither you nor anyone else advocating a 'Taekkyon' ancestry for TKD has even begun to come close to doing that.



YoungMan said:


> Now it can be argued that early TKD was very derivative of Shotokan, more or less depending on your Kwan. My argument is that modern TKD directly stems from Taekkyon. I have seen too much proof to believe otherwise.



*Then please provide this proof*&#8212;and it had better not be of the `A clearly copied the paper from B' sort that so far is all you've given, because that is, as I've noted, not proof of anything at all. There is, on the other hand, abundant evidence, recorded in the work of the people I've cited, that TKD derives from Shotokan primarily, that its original tech set was just that of Shotokan, that its high and complex kicks developed steadily in response to the increasing emphasis within the art on martial sport competition. It is very evident however that you are unfamiliar with this research, because any argument designed to support the point you're defending would have to start by explaining away the evidence that I've alluded to. And it seems very strange to me that one would try to have a serious discussion of a historical issue without some basic familiarity with the premier work carried out by historians whose careers are built on the detailed _study_ of that issue, among others.



YoungMan said:


> Now, if the argument is that TKD and Taekkyon either had nothing to do with each other, or TKD and TK influenced each other (possible), my question is Where Did Those Techniques Come From? Japanese karate doesn't teach technique like that.



Have you observed any sport Karate matches over the past decade? What don't they do in Japanese sport Karate that they do in TKD?



YoungMan said:


> A viewing of Human Weapon-Karate will prove that.



You are seriously saying that one hour of _Human Weapon_ is your evidence base for the technical content of Japanese Karate???




YoungMan said:


> And a martial art born out Shotokan would not do that either. If you don't learn kicking like that, how would you know to do it?



Would you like to explain (i) how you know that 'a martial art born out Shotokan would not do that either' and (ii) why you think that the techniques you're referring to do not represent normal extensions within the art itself?? Particularly when competitive uses of a martial art inevitably and naturally require modification of what was originally a highly destructive fighting system to suit its new role of athletic spectacle with minimal risk of major injury to the participants? I'm afraid I don't follow your reasoning here even a little bit.




YoungMan said:


> To me, the only plausible explanation is that TK was either there from the beginning or strongly influenced later on.



That's fine as a fact about you. And if you want to leave it there, so far as your own knowledge of TKD is concerned, that's fine too; it doesn't impinge on anyone else. But if you want what _you_ consider plausible to be taken as plausible by anyone else, you have a lot more work to do than simply reporting your impression of what 'must have' happened. There is now a serious literature on the evolution of TKD, presenting detailed evidence about what did and what did not happen. And to the extent that you ignore that evidence&#8212;as you've consistently done in your posts&#8212;to that extent you're just talking to yourself, unfortunately.



YoungMan said:


> It is well known that the Chung Do Kwan people consciously wanted to purge TKD of Japanese influence and technique. Fair enough. What do you replace it with? If you purposely implant TKD with TK technique to Koreanize it, then it can be rightly said that modern TKD is a direct descendant of TK. Again, the only other explanation is that TK technique was there from the beginning.



Sorry, no sale. General Choi was one of the foremost of the Japanese-influence purgers, but what he produced to satisfy that requirement was a set of hyungs which looked remarkably unlike the original kata sets that formed the Kwan-era curriculum, but incorporated major chunks of those kata in recombined form. As another of the major TKD technical scholars whose work I gather you're unfamiliar with has noted,

_The first patterns that can be considered exclusive to Taekwondo were the Chang Hon forms, composed by General Choi Hong Hi in the years leading up to the founding of the ITF. ... one of Choi's basic motivations was to provide Taekwondo with a set of patterns with a clearly Korean identity... thus, rather than being content to practise the Karate forms in much the same way as Okinawan masters had adopted Chinese hsings, Choi designed a set of patterns which he felt would be more acceptable from a nationalist standpoint.

...*They nevertheless owe a great deal to the Karate kata, particularly the Pinan/Heian series. Many sequences are direct transplants from the katas, or sequences in which one or two individual techniques have been substituted*_​
(Simon O'Neil, _Combat TKD_, Ch. 1, p. 5). And things were even more like that in the WTF hyungs, which didn't reflect nearly the same intensity of motivation to eliminate the Japanese influence from the art. The very fact that that 'Japanese influence' was associated in particular with the kata sets in the curriculum tells you how much of a role Shotokan played in forming that curriculum. And since rearranging the sequences does not reflect a major change in techniques&#8212;the kihons were left the same, and were organized into the same combat-effective subsequences, even in the Chang Hons&#8212;there doesn't seem to be any support at all for your supposition that purging TKD of its Japanese ancestry involved a fundamental technical change in the art; what changed was the _appearance_ of the art. Choi also added the `sine wave' component of movement to TKD techs; I seriously hope you're not going to tell me that he got that from Taekkyon! The techs, with predictable enhancement and modification in the sport-MA direction, the kihon line drills inherited from Funakoshi's university-club training methodology, and most other aspects of the art remained the same. The point is, you 'replace' the most obvious-looking Japanese aspects of the technique, the kata forms that give Okinawan/Japanese karate its most distinctive identity, with patterns that don't (at first sight) _look_ like those kata. And that's sufficient. So your basic premise in the passage I've quoted has no support, and you have no argument along these lines.

Again, I'd urge you to learn something about the actual _history_ of TKD, as documented by specialist MA historians (several of whom, e.g. Capener and Adroguès, are advanced dan practitioners of the art as well), before you try to construct arguments on behalf of your impressionistic hunches.


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## K31 (Dec 31, 2007)

I really enjoyed the episode. I was lucky, I forgot about it being scheduled of the 21st and just stumbled on it.

It made me think of all the reasons I like TKD.

I wasn't so much surprised at them learning a tornado kick as I was them learning the push kick. I assumed at least one of them would have been exposed to that somewhere.

It looked to me like "The Professor" (sorry, I can't remember his real name) did take it easy on them in the beginning but I thought that was courteous. If someone came to your dojang to do your style for the first time would you give them everything you had just to prove your style was superior to another?

If you have Comcast, last season they ran the previous three episodes (back from the current one they were airing at that time) on their "On Demand", gratis. I haven't checked this season but that might be a way for those who missed to get a chance to see it.


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## windwalker (Jan 1, 2008)

I enjoyed this episode.  I think the skills demonstrated by the TKD masters were incredible.  I believe one of the main problems with the show is that there not much you can actually learn in only 5 days.  It was interesting to see Bill and Jason fight a real champion this time.  While I also enjoyed seeing Bill getting knocked out, I likewise thought it was kind of lame to not allow punches to the head.  Maybe we'll see a slightly more humble Bill in the next episode.:asian:


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## AceHBK (Jan 1, 2008)

windwalker said:


> I likewise thought it was kind of lame to not allow punches to the head. Maybe we'll see a slightly more humble Bill in the next episode.:asian:


 
I had no issue with "no punches to the head".  I mean Bill said F it and did it anyways but then again he got knocked out for it too...lol!  There is no punches to the head normally in sparring.

I have been hoping that for Bill since the show started but it hasn't happened.

Funny to see how they said Bill needed to lose some weight..lol


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## AceHBK (Jan 1, 2008)

If there is anyone who hasn't seen this episode PM me and I will send you the download links.


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## HelloKitty (Jan 1, 2008)

AceHBK said:


> Funny to see how they said Bill needed to lose some weight..lol


 
And he didn't smile at all LOL


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## AceHBK (Jan 1, 2008)

HelloKitty said:


> And he didn't smile at all LOL


 
:lfao:  so true!!  Bill did not find it funny at all.

Korean Guy: You need to lose some weight

Bill: Lose weight? It's all muscle


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## HelloKitty (Jan 1, 2008)

AceHBK said:


> :lfao: so true!! Bill did not find it funny at all.
> 
> Korean Guy: You need to lose some weight
> 
> *Bill: Lose weight? It's all muscle*


 
ohh! I had forgotten that! it was SO hilarius! xD


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## AceHBK (Jan 1, 2008)

HelloKitty said:


> ohh! I had forgotten that! it was SO hilarius! xD


 
I KNEW i forgot something.  

Bill complained that his pants were too tight so he couldn't move fast.  He said if he didn't have on those tight slacks he could have moved faster!!!  LOL!

First time I have ever heard someone complain about slacks being too tight to move fast.


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## IcemanSK (Jan 2, 2008)

Ok, now that I've seen the whole show (thanks Ace!) I can give my informed thoughts. As many of us said eariler, expectations for this were very low. The figure they quoted was 70 milion people worldwide train in TKD. Even if that's just Kukkiwon numbers, that's huge. It probably is numbers that the KKW gave them. So that obviously doesn't take into account all the variations, organizations & groups that make up the rainbow of TKD practioners. 

The hard thing about doing an hour show on the uniqueness of the technical aspects of TKD,(albeit on the History Channel) is that one can't go into a detailed history of TKD. (Due to it's difficulty, it's a whole other Oprah!) The technical & historians that they spoke to were most likely the KKW folks that would tell the KKW PC version of the history. Because of that, Taekkyeon had to be added into the show. 

I wouldn't recommend the show as the best example of what TKD is about to anyone, but I thought the techniques (especially the axe kick) were good. If you were going to distinguish TKD from other Arts, you can't show a kick that other Arts do, too. (Non-MA-ists aren't gonna see the difference between a Muay Thai Round kick & a TKD round kick.)

I thought the show was ok, but I'll wait for the episode about TKD that exile, Terry, Kacey, Miles & Wade do. THAT would be much better!


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## crushing (Jan 2, 2008)

IcemanSK said:


> I thought the show was ok, but I'll wait for the episode about TKD that exile, Terry, Kacey, Miles & Wade do. THAT would be much better!


 
I would like to see that one!!!!!!!


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## newGuy12 (Jan 2, 2008)

IcemanSK said:


> I wouldn't recommend the show as the best example of what TKD is about to anyone, but I thought the techniques (especially the axe kick) were good. If you were going to distinguish TKD from other Arts, you can't show a kick that other Arts do, too. (Non-MA-ists aren't gonna see the difference between a Muay Thai Round kick & a TKD round kick.)



Yes, I liked the tornado kick, too!





IcemanSK said:


> I thought the show was ok, but I'll wait for the episode about TKD that exile, Terry, Kacey, Miles & Wade do. THAT would be much better!



Yes!

Haha -- my pants are too tight!  Haha!


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## YoungMan (Jan 2, 2008)

You mean watch a show that declares Tae Kwon Do as essentially Korean Shotokan with Gen. Choi as the Founder? I think not.
I personally found the Taekkyon segments fascinating. I saw a lot of what you would consider Tae Kwon Do kicks in that.
And watching Jason and Bill trying Taekkyon foortwork quite amusing.


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## arnisador (Jan 2, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> that declares Tae Kwon Do as essentially Korean Shotokan with Gen. Choi as the Founder



That's what we're saying.


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## foot2face (Jan 2, 2008)

arnisador said:


> That's what we're saying.


Then you'll be just as inaccurate as Human Weapon! The truth is somewhere in the middle.


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## exile (Jan 2, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> I personally found the Taekkyon segments fascinating. I saw a lot of what you would consider Tae Kwon Do kicks in that.



Sure you did. Reinvented taekkyon was formed... sigh... during the _same time period_ that TKD began to go off on its own career of flamboyant kick development, and that was the hot thing then. So are you suprised that this newly introduced  revivalist art, 'taekkyon',  picked up on what had developed out of Shotokan's low, combat oriented kicks under the pressures of athletic competition? Why is this point, which the huge bulk of historical evidence (made explicit in the sources I've cited) documents, proving so elusive for you?




YoungMan said:


> And watching Jason and Bill trying Taekkyon foortwork quite amusing.



It may be fascinating to you, and it may be amusing as well. But what does it have to do with the empirical historical question of which techniques in which arts developed from which sources?? Sorry, but I'm not following the connections amongst ideas in your posts at all.

Instead of trying any further, let me just cite the following discussion from Capener's essay:

_In 1921, at the age of 70, Ch'oe Yong-nyon described t'aekkyon in his book, Haedong 
chukchi, as a game in which two partners squared off and tried to knock each other 
down with their feet. He went on to say, "This became a means of exacting revenge for 
a slight or winning away an opponent's concubine through betting. Due to this, the 
game was outlawed by the judiciary and eventually disappeared.13 Many writers have 
tried to assert that t'aekkyon was forced underground as a result of being outlawed by 
the Japanese during the colonial period due to its potential as a source of anti-Japanese 
revolt. In fact some have gone a step further and, after stating that the Japanese 
outlawed t'aekkyon, attempted to explain the use of the name karate (kongsu and 
tangsu) in post-liberation Korea and the use of karate forms, (hyong) by stating that, 
due to t'aekkyon's similarity to karate, the Japanese forced Koreans to use the name 
karate in referring to t'aekkyon and to include Japanese forms in its practice.14 This 
seems to be an apparent contradiction. If the Japanese had banned the practice of 
t'aekkyon, how and why would they force Koreans to call it karate or incorporate karate 
techniques into it? This is a moot point. According to both Ch'oe Yong-nyon and Song 
Tok-ki, the last progeny of Choson t'aekkyon, *t'aekkyon had, for the most part, faded 
out of folk culture shortly after the turn of the century. Ch'oe Yong-nyon stated that 
due to gambling and other unsavory aspects deemed harmful to the preservation of 
healthy social customs, t'aekkyon was forbidden and even youngsters seen playing it 
were chased with a switch by the village elders. In this way it soon disappeared.* 
T'aekkyon seems to have suffered the same fate as that of another Choson era folk game 
called p'yon ssaum which was an organized rock fighting between two teams, usually 
two villages. This game was popular since the Koryo dynasty and was watched by 
kings, as was subak. However, King Sejong was so horrified by the primitiveness of it 
that he ordered it banned. Nevertheless it survived repeated attempts at prohibition by 
the judiciary17 which finally succeeded in abolishing it sometime after the turn of the 
century. *Both t'aekkyon and p'yon ssaum are listed in a book called Korean Games 
written in 1895 by all American scholar named Stuart Culin who describes t'aekkyon as 
a game in which the object is to kick the opponent's leg out from under him or catch 
the opponent's kick and throw him to the ground. He goes on to say that the game was 
also played in Japan.* In a similar book called Han'guk-ui minsok nori (Korean Folk 
Games), written in 1975 by a Korean scholar of Korean folk customs named Shim U- 
song, a good deal of attention is given to rock fighting but there is no mention of 
t'aekkyon. Further testimony to the completeness of t'aekkyon 's disappearance from 
Korean folk customs is given by Song Tok-ki the Choson's "last t'aekkyon player" who 
was invited in 1958 to give a demonstration of t'aekkyon on the occasion of then 
President Syngman Rhee's birthday. *In spite of searching in "100 directions" he was 
unable to locate even one person versed in t'aekkyon with whom he could 
demonstrate. This in spite of hundreds of t'aegwondo schools throughout the country.*
Song Tok-ki goes on to say that t'aekkyon was never thought of as other than a game 
and existed almost exclusively in Seoul where it was played regularly in a few 
locations._​
(from Capener, 'Problems in the Identity and Philosphy of T'aegwando and their Historical Causes', available here.) Capener, a technical advisor to USA Taekwondo and professor at Ehwa University in Korea, has probably done more research on the role of taekkyon in KMA history than any other scholar. You would do well to read what he's discovered about the nonrelationship between taekkyon and TKD history.


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## arnisador (Jan 2, 2008)

> In 1921, at the age of 70, Ch'oe Yong-nyon described t'aekkyon in his book, Haedong
> chukchi, as a game in which two partners squared off and tried to knock each other
> down with their feet. He went on to say, "This became a means of exacting revenge for
> a slight



We played a variation of this game in Buffalo, NY when I was growing up. You'd put your hands on the opponent's shoulders and he would do the same, and you'd try to kick him down and he'd do the same. Kicking hard to the shins was expressly legal. Pushing him down with your hands was cheatin', though rules were applied with the same standard of case as in Professional Wrestling.

*YoungMan*, you wouldn't go to a history professor for martial arts instruction...why go to a martial arts instructor for history? We all repeat the legends we learned from our instructors. I told the story of Okinawan peasants breaking through the samurais' wooden armour with their board-breaking skills for much longer than I'd care to admit. I wasn't lying--I was a 15 year old karate student and I believed it. I believe my (well-educated) instructor did too.

In this case, those knowledgeable individuals who have looked at the matter have concluded that TKD was overwhelmingly Shotokan originally. Clearly it's changed since then, and I don't doubt that the legend of taekkyon could have influenced that--not the techniques, but the larger-than-life memories of them that people sought to emulate.


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## IcemanSK (Jan 2, 2008)

Shotokan is the base for Taekwondo. GM Lee, Won Kuk & many other Kwan founders were Funikoshi's (sp?) students. We owe a great debt to Funikoshi. But as I said, that story wouldn't be told by the Kukkiwon, because when they merged the Kwans, no longer had unique histories. Given that, they had to tell the "ancient history" of the Korean fighting arts. The story of TKD being 2000 years old is simple, & quick so that we can commence with the kickin' (which is what people watch the show for). A show on any one of the Kwan's histories would take more than hour & would only be interesting to the few of us MA geeks on MT:wink:


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## foot2face (Jan 2, 2008)

Not to diminish Shotokan's significant contribution to TKD, but I think it should be noted that a 3rd of the founding Kwans did not have a Shotokan lineage.


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## YoungMan (Jan 3, 2008)

Couple of questions (not to get off track here):
1. Why did Tae Kwon Do use middle/high kicks from the beginning when  Shotokan uses low/middle kicks? There was no tournament glory to strive for at that time.

2. Why did Won Kuk Lee have to get permission to teach Tang Soo Do, and that permision denied twice? If he were teaching something authorized by and approved by the Japanese government (which Shotokan was), seems to me he'd have received permission from the start. The Japanese obviously didn't approve of Tang Soo Do.

3. Why does GGM Lee refer to Tang Soo Do as a Korean style (http://www.tangsudo.it/html/leewonkuk.html) It obviously wasn't simply Japanese karate to him.


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## exile (Jan 3, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> Couple of questions (not to get off track here):
> 1. Why did Tae Kwon Do use middle/high kicks from the beginning when  Shotokan uses low/middle kicks? There was no tournament glory to strive for at that time.



What's the basis for the claim that TKD used middle/high kicks 'from the beginning'? I've looked at several early manuals for TKD and the kicks displayed there are no more than middle height. Changing the kind of kicking TKD employed was partly driven by a conscious desire of certain of Kwan founders and early pioneers to distinguish what they were doing from what the Japanese karateka were doing, and there were other innovations as well, involving blocking and hand strikes, illustrated in a whole section of Stuart Anslow's book on bunkai for the Chang Hon forms, which would clearly be completely independent of anything in taekkyon. 




YoungMan said:


> 2. Why did Won Kuk Lee have to get permission to teach Tang Soo Do, and that permision denied twice? If he were teaching something authorized by and approved by the Japanese government (which Shotokan was), seems to me he'd have received permission from the start. The Japanese obviously didn't approve of Tang Soo Do.



If you had consulted the historical sources I've provided you with references to several times, you'd have noticed that the Japanese forbade the teaching of MAs _preriod_ in Korea in the late 19th century, and that meant that they were primarily forbidding the teaching of jiujutsu, because that was the only style that had been taught in Japanese-occupied Korea after that occupation became official in the wake of the Russo-Japanese War. Repeat: Jiujutsu was an indigenous Japanese budo style that the Koreans were learning, _and it was forbidden ANYWAY!!_.  The suppression of TSD later on was simply more of the same. The Japanese weren't suppressing Korean MAs in Korea; they were suppressing the teaching of MAs, _period_. You're an occupying power. Why would you allow a potentially effect tool for resisting control to be widely taught?? You seem to have the idea that the Japanese wanted to deprive the Koreans of their home-growns brands; what they in fact wanted to deprive them of was _weapons_. Are you surprised that in spite of the fact that katanas were Japanese, the Japanese in the Occupation period forbade the Koreans to own katanas, along with their own traditional swords? They didn't want the Koreans to have _any_ weapons, Korean-made _or_ Japanese-made. So why on earth would you expect them to allow Koreans to practice any martial art at all? How is it to the advantage of an occupying power to have citizens of the occupation knowing effective combat techniques??




YoungMan said:


> 3. Why does GGM Lee refer to Tang Soo Do as a Korean style (It obviously wasn't simply Japanese karate to him.




We have repeatedly pointed out to you the deliberate efforts of post-occupation Korea to purge Japanese cultural motifs from its cultural life. Did you not read, as was suggested to you, Gm. Kim Soo's comments in _Black Belt_ on this point?

What is the point of trying to have a discussion about issues where there is a very relevant set of historical sources if you're not even going to bother familiarizing yourself with those sources? Every single one of these questions can be answered on the basis of freely available, peer-reviewed historical sources whose titles and venues you've been provided with. Why do you persist in _ignoring_ material which contains answers to the questions you keep asking??



foot2face said:


> Not to diminish Shotokan's significant contribution to TKD, but I think it should be noted that a 3rd of the founding Kwans did not have a Shotokan lineage.



Right, Toyama Kanken's Shudokan karate was the source of one of the Kwan curricula. And Hwang Kee's school... that's a whole other set of issues! He seems to have been primarily influenced by Itosu's version of Okinawan karate, and CMAs were present in the mix as well.

This is an interesting issue&#8212;gotta go run to class but more later...


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## arnisador (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes, all the Kwans taught Japanese-influenced systems (David Mitchell, _The Overlook Martial Arts Handbook_) but not all were from Shotokan...and indeed, Hwang kee's case is more complicated.


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## zDom (Jan 3, 2008)

But all of the original five kwans trace back to Won Kuk Lee's Chung Do Kwan, so all at least had at least SOME Shotokan influence ... right?


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## exile (Jan 3, 2008)

zDom said:


> But all of the original five kwans trace back to Won Kuk Lee's Chung Do Kwan, so all at least had at least SOME Shotokan influence ... right?



Well, here's the tally as I understand it:

*Lee Won Kuk (Chung Do Kwan):* either 3rd or 4th Dan, Shotokan, under Gichin Funakoshi, and apparently also under GF's son Yoshitaka. 

*Byung Jik Ro (Song Moo Kwan):* 4th Dan, Shotokan, under GF.

*Pyung In Yoon (Chang Moo Kwan): *5th Dan in Shudokan karate under Toyama Kanken.

*Choi Hong Hi (Oh Do Kwan):* 2nd Dan, Shotokan, but it's not 100% clear whether he studied directly with GF while in Tokyo.

*Hwang Kee (Moo Duk Kwan):* seems to have some kind of connection with Gogen Yamaguchi of Gojo-Ryu, though it's not clear how much this bore on his training. In his last book, _The History of the Moo Doo Kwan_, published in 1995, he acknowledged having learned not only the Pinan/Heian katas, but most of the hyungs he taught in MDK TSD, from Japanese books on karate; John Hancock, who has probably studied this aspect of HK's MA history most closely of anyone, suggests here that Funakoshi's _Ryukyu Kempo Karate_ (1922)  was one these sources.


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## AceHBK (Jan 3, 2008)

You know I was just about to watch the movie _When Taekwondo Strikes _and then I thought of the HW episode on TKD and all of the people that mention masters and all......then it hit me

Why doesn't Jhoon Rhee's name come up in TKD talks.  I remember growing up (im only 30) as a kid hearing Jhoon Rhee's name all the time and the commercials and all as a kid in MD.  Why is he rarely ever mentioned if mentioned at all anymore?


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## IcemanSK (Jan 3, 2008)

AceHBK said:


> You know I was just about to watch the movie _When Taekwondo Strikes _and then I thought of the HW episode on TKD and all of the people that mention masters and all......then it hit me
> 
> Why doesn't Jhoon Rhee's name come up in TKD talks. I remember growing up (im only 30) as a kid hearing Jhoon Rhee's name all the time and the commercials and all as a kid in MD. Why is he rarely ever mentioned if mentioned at all anymore?


 
That's a good question, Ace. Hee IL Cho is another that doesn't get mentioned much anymore, either. Although Cho is mentioned more often than Rhee.


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## AceHBK (Jan 3, 2008)

IcemanSK said:


> That's a good question, Ace. Hee IL Cho is another that doesn't get mentioned much anymore, either. Although Cho is mentioned more often than Rhee.


 
You know, when big names are left out it is usually a sign of some people having a issue with them or something.  One of those, "if u can't say nothing nice, don't say anything at all."  Being such a pioneer of TKD in America you would think you would hear his name more often but you don't. (Jhoon Rhee)


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## exile (Jan 4, 2008)

AceHBK said:


> You know, when big names are left out it is usually a sign of some people having a issue with them or something.  One of those, "if u can't say nothing nice, don't say anything at all."  Being such a pioneer of TKD in America you would think you would hear his name more often but you don't. (Jhoon Rhee)



But it's also possible that what people are talking about is no longer the kind of thing where the names of those people are relevant. These days, there seems to be a huge surge of interest in 'old-school' TKD, the kind of thing that we've been posting back and forth about, the Kwan era when TKD was a combat system, pure and simple. That's to some extent a result of all the new work on  kata bunkai, karate as a pure CQ combat system, and the latent grappling moves (throws, pins, controlling techs) of the traditional karate that gave rise to TKD. The thing is, neither Cho or Rhee really have much bearing on that set of concerns. So in this case, I wouldn't say it's so much people having an issue with these guys as it is the lack of a connection between what they were doing back in the day, on the one hand, and what people are focusing on now, on the other.


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## terryl965 (Jan 4, 2008)

exile said:


> But it's also possible that what people are talking about is no longer the kind of thing where the names of those people are relevant. These days, there seems to be a huge surge of interest in 'old-school' TKD, the kind of thing that we've been posting back and forth about, the Kwan era when TKD was a combat system, pure and simple. That's to some extent a result of all the new work on kata bunkai, karate as a pure CQ combat system, and the latent grappling moves (throws, pins, controlling techs) of the traditional karate that gave rise to TKD. The thing is, neither Cho or Rhee really have much bearing on that set of concerns. So in this case, I wouldn't say it's so much people having an issue with these guys as it is the lack of a connection between what they were doing back in the day, on the one hand, and what people are focusing on now, on the other.


 
I would have to agree here, it is what people want today.


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## dancingalone (Jan 4, 2008)

Jhoon Rhee is over seventy now and I believe he had some health issues in the past few years.  I doubt he is active as he used to be.  He's still a major TKD influence in the Maryland area I understand.

Hee Il Cho seems to be expanding to Ireland judging by all the articles and ads in TKD Times magazine.   At one point in the eighties, Mr. Cho was on every martial arts magazine cover it seemed.  

Both gentlemen have done their parts to popularize TKD in the United States.  It's true neither are involved with the recent bunkai/boon hae resurgence.  Mr. Rhee was more known for his martial ballet and for Americanizing TKD as an art.  Mr. Cho became famous for his many demos featuring crowd-pleasing breaks made with his high-flying kicks, and he also appeared in lots of movies (mostly bad ones, but hey he showed what TKD could do).


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## YoungMan (Jan 4, 2008)

As we get further and further away from the Founders and the big names of yesteryear, it is only natural that their influence will fade, to be replaced by new people with new ideas.
Organizations are the same way. In time, new faces with new ideas take over from the original students.


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## exile (Jan 4, 2008)

dancingalone said:


> Jhoon Rhee is over seventy now and I believe he had some health issues in the past few years.  I doubt he is active as he used to be.  He's still a major TKD influence in the Maryland area I understand.
> 
> Hee Il Cho seems to be expanding to Ireland judging by all the articles and ads in TKD Times magazine.   At one point in the eighties, Mr. Cho was on every martial arts magazine cover it seemed.
> 
> Both gentlemen have done their parts to popularize TKD in the United States.  It's true neither are involved with the recent bunkai/boon hae resurgence.  Mr. Rhee was more known for his martial ballet and for Americanizing TKD as an art.  Mr. Cho became famous for his many demos featuring crowd-pleasing breaks made with his high-flying kicks, and he also appeared in lots of movies (mostly bad ones, but hey he showed what TKD could do).





YoungMan said:


> As we get further and further away from the Founders and the big names of yesteryear, it is only natural that their influence will fade, to be replaced by new people with new ideas.
> Organizations are the same way. In time, new faces with new ideas take over from the original students.



_Something_ is coming down the pike, it feels like... but it's always hard to know what's happening while you're in the midst of it. After the fact, it's easy, but it's very hard to make accurate sense of the seeming chaos around you (which later on, of course, will turn out not to have been chaotic at all).

There has been a first 'American era' in the TMAs (oversimplified terminology, but I can't think of anything better at the moment), where these arts came over with expatriate masters like the ones we were talking about; e.g., in TKD,  Jhoon Rhee, Hee Il Cho, Kim Soo (whose interview in the current  _Black Belt_ I mentioned earlier) and many others. The effect of the TKD wave during this period was enormous, and many KMA practitioners generally were part of the full-contact 'golden age' era of karate competition in the U.S. In those days, the TMAs were practiced by a relatively small number of intensely dedicated students and your safety during training was your own lookout, mostly; when I was an undergraduate in the NY in the mid 1960s, I had an apartment with between six and eight roomates (it changed continuously as couples formed or broke up, lol), three or four of whom were devoted karateka and who often came back from their practice severely bruised, and invariably cheerful about. 'Good session!!' was the most common type of comment about those particular evening workouts. It wasn't bravado, either; people just seemed to take it for granted that if you do karate, you are developing real fighting skills and therefore you have to test them by simulating, to some extent, the take-no-prisoners conditions of an actual _fight_. To me, as a non-practitioner at the time, their attitude make perfect sense. It was just part of the MA culture of that time.

I have a feeling that a second 'American era' is begining, somewhat imperceptibly maybe, where these TMAs are pursued along those lines again even as TKD goes ever more in the direction of a competitive martial spectacle (the Chloe Bruce route, and the kind of things that the new KKW forms we were discussing on that other thread), and pressure continues to 'Olympify' karate (we've had threads discussing this point too). From still other threads I've read on MT, I get the sense that it bothers a lot of TKD practitioners that TKD is now regarded by many as something quite inappropriate for SD purposes (consider the implicit dismissal of TKD, 'the government's version', as having a combat purpose in this post; and there are plenty of people who think of it the same way). I've talked about this sort of thing with Terry and a number of other people with deep and wide experience in TKD and the karate-based arts generally, and I have the sense that a deliberate seeking-out of the fighting origins of TKD, maybe even a rapprochement between more combat-oriented schools and the TSD people, is in the cards. The crucial thing about this second American era, I'm guessing, is that it will see a radical decentralization of curriculum and technical decisions, a reversion to a kwan-like organizational structure where each school makes its own decisions about hyung selection and degree of emphasis on realistic combat simulation, practical boon hae based on hyung analysis, reintroduction of the (vertical) grappling techs widely used in the distant Okinawan ancestor of TKD, and so on&#8212;in a nutshell, the decoupling of TKD from the decisions and agenda of the large Korean mega-organizations. The latter can now be seen, realistically I think, as the South Korean state's bridge to the Olympic movement, and their decisions will forevermore be determined by competitive sport considerations, judging from what we've already seen. (I know foot2face disagrees with me on this, but that's just how I see the weight of the evidence). I think a lot of people on this side of the Pacific are begining to think that if you want a different kind of TKD, you're going to have to do it for yourself, and not worry about anything the KKW tells you to do. 

It's hard to make a convincing case that a change in this direction is really under way, at this point. But I have a sense that in ten years or so, we'll be seeing evidence that things began moving in that direction at the beginning of this decade...


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## jim777 (Jan 4, 2008)

I have Jhoon Rhee's books of the ITF Hyungs on my nightstand


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## Laurentkd (Jan 4, 2008)

Ok, I am un-hijacking the thread here people! 

After some computer issues (I finally found the problem- it was between the monitor and the chair) I finally got to watch the episode.  I just wanted to throw in that I thought it was great! I am sure I am biased but I tried to look at it through layman's eyes and over all I thought it seemed very interesting and showed some cool TKD stuff. The fights at the end were awesome in that I felt they gave the impression that TKD is a great fighting art (when else has a host been behind 10 to 1, let alone get knocked out!) and (while I hate to see injuries) even the fact that Jason got injured was in some way a good showing that the kicks learned in TKD aren't easily picked up in 2 weeks.  Every other episode has seem to implied that these guys were picking up these moves and doing well against national champions all from training for only a few days. This was definetly not seen in the TKD episode.  It is just unfortunate that the other arts weren't showcased in a similar way as I know the tools of these arts are not picked up easily either.
As far as the holes (or rather add-ins) in the history.  If our own people don't know or won't recognize the truth how can we hold a tv show to a higher standard?  Still sad, but I think true.
Over all I was really happy with the epsiode.  Of course with what Human Weapon has shown me over the last few months my expectations certainly weren't very high so I was all the more easily impressed


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