# Kick To The Groin



## MJS (May 10, 2010)

Theres an interesting discussion over at the KN.  It started out with the OP asking others if they've ever done a groin kick on someone in a SD situation, and what the results/effects were.  It generated though, into a discussion with one member, making the statement that kicking someone with shoes on, is considered assault with a deadly weapon.  Personally, I think thats pretty laughable, because I wouldn't expect anyone to take off their shoes, when their *** is on the line and technically, anything we do, could be considered assault.  I mean, this reminds me of the old "You need to register your hands with the police" line, that we used to hear.

So, 2 part question for everyone here.  

1) Have you done a groin kick and what were the results/effects.

2) Do you feel that kicking someone with shoes is considered assault with a deadly weapon?


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## shesulsa (May 10, 2010)

1. Yes, a few times.  One of those times it was effective in getting the attacker disabled enough to leave me alone ... he was ah ... *out* and ready. Even better, he was distracted by trying to control my hands. His legs were apart and the target was right there. He collapsed as I ran.

The other two times, it just pissed the guy off more - attackers were stronger, faster, more intent on control and harm.

2.  Hardly, even giving deference to Hardheadjarhead's personal scrotal experience, I can't buy into the reality of a shoed foot being considered a deadly weapon. Sense doesn't necessarily rule in lawmaking, however.


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## Manny (May 10, 2010)

Well I have never used a groing kick for self defense but just once in a harsh game of soccer. I was at high school and we played soccer very harsh, I mean the one who has the ball got kicked, so basically the one who gets the ball must send a pass to the other player very quick if not he colud be kicked..... yes we were young and STUPID those days.

When one player of the other team got the ball I just kicked him right in the middle, where it counts, and droped him flat in pain ( I was kikcek early on the game and not by one but by two or three).

Answering question number 2. No I do`n´t think kiking some scum bag with shoes to be assault with a deadly weapon.

Manny


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## jks9199 (May 10, 2010)

The booted foot as a lethal weapon goes back to specific cases, more than the mere fact that you're wearing boots.  It would depend on where you kick, the circumstances, and so on.  In other words -- all the usual lethal force qualifiers.  For example, if you stomp someone's head as they're down... Yeah, probably going to count as lethal force.  A groin kick?  Probably not -- not even with steel toed boots.  (OK, maybe if you use boots like in this clip...)


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## Bill Mattocks (May 10, 2010)

As has been taught in my dojo, a kick to the groin is a kick intended to collapse the pelvic bone and supporting structure; _the groin is just in the way_.  If I kick a person there in a self-defense situation, my goal is to stop the attack by rendering them incapable of continuing to attack me.  

The fact that this will drive their wedding tackle up into their sinus cavity is of no concern to me.  The fact that they'll never walk right again is also not my problem.  I would not unleash the kick unless I was being attacked and reasonably in fear of my life, and unable to retreat (if in a 'duty to retreat' state).  

If I have to do it, I'm going to give it all I have, and I don't really care what the damage inflicted is as long as the main result is accomplished - the attack stops.

PS - If asked why I kicked them wearing boots or shoes or whatever, my answer will be simple: Because that's what I was wearing when I was attacked.


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## TigerLove (May 10, 2010)

[/QUOTE]
1) Have you done a groin kick and what were the results/effects.

2) Do you feel that kicking someone with shoes is considered assault with a deadly weapon?[/QUOTE]

1) I did it, in the time i even didn't know what martial arts is. When i was young, 12 years old, in self defense. Some kid attacked me with wooden stick, and fear taked control over me, and i hitted him as hard as i could. Consequences was that he went to the hospital, but it was ok later. My mom beated hell out of me later!

2) I don't think, well damn i can't choose what i will wear when somebody attacks me. Even if i could, it would be my boots.


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## DavidCC (May 11, 2010)

by "groin" do you mean the testicles?

because by strict definition, the groin is the creases where the thighs meet the abdomen.

the crotch is the inverted "Y" intersection between the legs

neither is specific to the male anatomy.

the kick to the testicles has an unpredictable reaction, so I prefer not to rely on it.  However there are some good and reliable effects from kicking to targets in that general region (bladder, pelvic girdle, or even crotch).


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## Touch Of Death (May 11, 2010)

DavidCC said:


> by "groin" do you mean the testicles?
> 
> because by strict definition, the groin is the creases where the thighs meet the abdomen.
> 
> ...


I think that is why we use the term groin instead of testicles.
Sean


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## Carol (May 11, 2010)

MJS said:


> 1) Have you done a groin kick and what were the results/effects.



Outside of class, no.  Its not my favorite target, personally.  



> 2) Do you feel that kicking someone with shoes is considered assault with a deadly weapon?


I think some folks hear the term "Assault with a deadly weapon" and  think that means lethal force.  It doesn't (at least in this part of New  England).  

Simple assault here is typically fists on fists.  Anything more  than that....kicks, having something in your hand, etc. can warrant  "assault with a deadly weapon" charge if that person is in the wrong.   An example I know of from a few years back,  a guy who freaked out upon  hearing that he was let go from his job.  He refused to leave the  office, and started acting very strangely.   Cops arrived and asked/told  him to leave.   He wouldn't.  Cops tried to arrest him, he didn't like  that so he went after one of the officers with a pencil.   That  was...stupid, but not lethal force. The officer wasn't hurt.  However,  the dude ended up being booked on misdemeanor trespassing, resisting arrest, and  assault with a deadly weapon charges because he had a pencil in his  hand. 

A misuse of lethal force up this way would result in felony charges for aggravated assault, attempted murder (or worse...), something along those lines.


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## Matt (May 11, 2010)

I don't know about CT, but in MA kicking someone with a shod foot can be considered Assault & Battery with a deadly weapon. 

example:
http://www.attorneywdkickham.com/lawyer-attorney-1299212.html


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## MJS (May 12, 2010)

Great replies.  I'll try to comment on a few posts all in one. 

First, to answer my own question:  The majority of my groin kicking has been done during sparring (accidental shots) as well as SD training, again accidental shots.  A few RL times, but thats about it.

Do I think its assault with a deadly weapon?  No.  I say no, because I think it would depend on where the kick was delivered as well as the circumstances.  Someone trying to rob me or hit me, and I launch one to his balls...IMO, thats fine.  Now, attack is over, badguy no longer a threat, he's on the ground, and I use his head and ribs as a football, well yeah, thats a bit of overkill.  I find it interesting that a kick is used as a defensive tactic in the CT DOC, as well as knee strikes, but if I were to be attacked on the street, its suddenly not ok?  

@ DavidCC:  Sorry, I was trying to be a bit more forum friendly with my wording, but since you asked for clarification, we could use the term nuts or balls, to be a bit more clear on what I was trying to say.  


As for its effectiveness....well, much like any strike I throw, while I do feel its good to throw with power and stopping intent, I dont like to put all my faith in the assumption that that kick will end the fight.  It may, but if it doesn't, a few things will happen.  1) It'll stop him long enough for me to follow up with other shots, or 2) it'll get a reaction, which will buy me time to follow up with other shots.

I find myself going back to that well stated comment, made by one of the Kajukenbo guys, in the Fight Quest show.  One of the guys was showing Doug some empty hand techs.  He said something along the lines of following a line of destruction.  He started off with 2 limb destructions, then does his first shot, which sets up the second shot, which sets up the third shot.  Certainly makes sense to me.


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## Todd Reiner (May 12, 2010)

Jeff Macalolooy I believe was showing Doug the SD tech in the Fight Quest episode referred to. I see the strike (regardless by what means) to the groin a viable target. It hurts enough to slow an attacker down and opens other targets regardless of a good contact shot or not. Often just the telegraphed or missed threat of a shot to the nuts will open higher targets. When contact is made the options of follow up are wide open to the point of feeling like a kid in a candy store.

To answer questions to 1 yes I have struck to the nuts with good results, instant belly overs. I have also missed the shot to the nuts and got the hands down with the deer in headlight look that open a head shot.

On number 2 no. Personnally a weapon is a firearm, knife, brass knuckles, pencil, pen, umbrella, etc. Legally what defines a weapon in regards to assault is state by state, and I have found nothing in my jurisdiction to say otherwise.

In MN DOC controlled force training I asked the question of a strike to the balls and the instructors answer was you struck to the mid-section of the body, never say balls, groin, etc in court.


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## Hand Sword (Jun 19, 2010)

MJS said:


> Theres an interesting discussion over at the KN.  It started out with the OP asking others if they've ever done a groin kick on someone in a SD situation, and what the results/effects were.  It generated though, into a discussion with one member, making the statement that kicking someone with shoes on, is considered assault with a deadly weapon.  Personally, I think thats pretty laughable, because I wouldn't expect anyone to take off their shoes, when their *** is on the line and technically, anything we do, could be considered assault.  I mean, this reminds me of the old "You need to register your hands with the police" line, that we used to hear.
> 
> So, 2 part question for everyone here.
> 
> ...




Yes I have done it a few times and have seen it done a few. The results mixed from immediate drops to a delayed response, where more anger came first, then, after a quick exchange and end, the feeling of the pain arrived. I have also seen no effect at all, except for more anger by the recipient.

No, I don't consider assault. I don't take the old Spike Lee theory of "It's gotta be the shoes!" Shoes are shoes, weapons are weapons. I know in some states the "shod foot" is another charge, but overall, if it's an attack, it's self defense. The attacker is assaulting.


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