# Did Japan have Kiai Jutsu before 20th century? What happened to it today?



## Steven Lee (Jan 30, 2019)

Did Japan have Kiai Jutsu before 20th century? What happened to it today?

I was just googling, and I found some articles on Kiai Jutsu in Japan.

FightingArts.com - Kiai Jutsu: The Shout Used As A Weapon

Kiai-Jutsu | Shuyokan Ryu Martial Arts Center

I assumed that Kihapsul/Kiaijutsu (Kiai/Kihap Techniques) was solely Korean origin because Japan doesn't have it today. But did Japan have this sport in the medieval time? If so, what happened to it today? Where is it?

I don't mind Japan also having had Breaking Game regardless of Korean Charyuk/Kihapsul influence as long as it's clear that Korea always has had Breaking/Tameshiwari regardless of Karate. It is just that, I don't want to lie; I don't want to share credit. Hence, I was saying that Japan didn't have Breaking Game; Japan got the idea of Breaking Game from Korean Kiaijutsu, not from China. Also, 1933's Karate's Breaking/Tameshiwari did not rotate shoulder for hand strike; Korean sports rotated shoulder for hand strikes with old proofs; Korean sports stacked speed & power instead of implosion & explosion with old proofs. Even if Japan had Kiaijutsu regardless of Korean influence, Karate still copied hand strike techniques from Korea. 1933's Karate's Breaking/Tameshiwari didn't use such techniques.

On top of it (it is clear Karate & Mas Oyama copied Korean hand strike for Breaking), the question is whether Japan got the idea of Breaking Game from Korean Kiai Jutsu or whether Japan also always has had Kiai Jutsu and Breaking Game. If Japan also always has had Breaking & Kiai Jutsu, what happened to Japanese Kiai Jutsu today? That's my question. If Japan really did have Kiai Jutsu in the medieval era, I'm gonna have to fix Wikipedia article on Breaking. Breaking (martial arts) - Wikipedia


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## Gweilo (Jan 30, 2019)

As I was taught, Korean arts were different from Chinese and Japanese arts in the fact that Korea had no formal full arts, it consisted of different arts for different parts of the body, so as I understand it you would go to an instructor of Tae kyon to learn kicks, and would pay per technique, same for punches, locks etc, it was not until the Japanese ocupation,  and the barring of traditional arts, that Korea had a full MA albeit Japanese, after the Japanese left, it left a legacy of forming full MA systems, even though traditional Korean arts are heavily influenced by Chinese and Japanese arts, they maintain some traditional Korean influences.


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## Steven Lee (Jan 30, 2019)

No, that's not true. Taekkyeon has an art called Yetbub (Sibak, Nanjangbaksi) which includes punching, headbutt, kicking. Even for regular Taekkyeon, it's a wrestling with kicking allowed. Taekkyeon has 2 systems in that name: regular Taekkyeon & Taekkyeon Yetbub. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/43/An_old_Poongsokhwa_drawing_of_Pyunssaum_by_(most_likely)_Gisan_Joongeun_Kim.png

Subak had punches and frontal slaps but no kicks. However, 300 years ago, Korean barehand martial arts increased. Korean obtained many street fighting games including Nalparam, Sibak (Nanjangbaksi), Gitssaum (Flag Fight) as well as Muyedobotongji Gwonbeop.

No, Taekwondo & Hapkido are pretty much the only sports with Japanese influences. Subak, North Korean Gyuksul, Taekkyeon (regular), Taekkyeon Yetbub (Sibak) are plain Korean barehand arts. Gyuksul is like Sibak except that there's a historical record that Gyuksul started as a boxing-like rules, which would mean it was Songdo's Subak.

There are a lot of misconceptions about Taekkyeon and Subak. When you dig up actual sources, they are actually quite different. Korean didn't pay nor train per body parts. It's a misconception. Before 300 years ago, Korean had no kicks. After 300 years ago, Korean has had full martial arts and Fight Games.

Taekkyeon-Yetbub is not a fake invention but a real Sibak culture

Like 1895's Korean Prize Fight record, "the combatants generally fight with their fists, but, like the French, are much given to use their knees and feet as well in the contest."

https://i.imgur.com/i03RApC.png


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## Gweilo (Jan 30, 2019)

Hapkido started from japanese art of daito ryu, agreed, but Jae han jae  tried to name hapkido Hap ki sul to make Koreans believe it was soley a Korean art, my belief was taekkyeon was Korean foot fighting, and Korean wrestling was ssireum.
Is Tang so do not Japanese influenced


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## Steven Lee (Jan 30, 2019)

I don't know about Hapkisul nor what that kind of name is supposed to do. Taekkyeon is not a foot fighting. Regular Taekkyeon is a wrestling (different from Ssireum but similar) with kicks allowed. Taekkyeon-Yetbub is Sibak which was recorded Yuk-Taekkyeon (meaning also included in Taekkyeon). It's a street fighting game allowing anything including punching, like the prize fight record. That's also Nalparam.

Tangsoodo just means Tode, Tote. Korea, China, Japan all pronounce Chinese characters in different dialects.


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## Gweilo (Jan 31, 2019)

Steven Lee said:


> Japan got the idea of Breaking Game from Korean Kiaijutsu, not from China.


By your own definition,  Korean Kiaijutsu, would suggest a Japanese origin.


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## Gweilo (Jan 31, 2019)

Steven Lee said:


> Taekkyeon, it's a wrestling with kicking allowed.


Taekkyeon has no ground fighting frame work, Subak was adopted from the Chinese was it not


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## Gweilo (Jan 31, 2019)

Steven Lee said:


> North Korean Gyuksul,


Never heard of that art, but north Korea was formed in 1948


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## Gweilo (Jan 31, 2019)

I have just been checking Scott shaw website (he is a very well respected MA historian) the very formation of Korea comes from Confucianism, Toaism,  and Buddhism, the very first recorded martial art in Korea was su bak gi, by the Buddhist monks, who had learnt hand to hand combat on their travels to China and Japan, as the monks lived and trained in the mountains,  they developed very strong legs, this lead them to formulate the kicking we see in Korean arts today. I am all for keeping history correct and up to date, can you share from where your knowledge or information has come from


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## Steven Lee (Jan 31, 2019)

Kiaijutsu is not Japanese origin. Korean Taoist Qigong Seonsul (Kooksundo) also historically recorded Kihapsul/Kiaijutsu in old newspapers. Also, Kiaijutsu's nickname Charyuk was always popular in Korea. What's weird is that Japan doesn't have Kiaijutsu today. If they had it in the medieval era, what happened to it? By the way, unlike Chinese Iron Palm doing Breaking, Korea's Breaking was specifically recorded to be sidewalk performance art like power circus Kiaijutsu/Kihapsul/Charyuk. It wasn't from striking martial arts unlike Iron Palm. Also, even for China, Qi gong practitioners have done Breaking. chi-kung is Qi gong. As for Taekwondo, it's Japanese. I made that sure. Korean has had many non-famous martial arts including Sibak (Taekkyeon-Yetbub) & power circus Charyuk/Kihapsul/Kiaijutsu.

"A lot of Korean Taekwondo instructors were good at breaking too, as were some the Chinese _"hard chi-kung"_ practitioners."
Mas Oyama in America, by Graham Noble


Taekkyeon does standing wrestling to takedown opponent. There are Korean Water Taekkyeon record throwing sister in law. Stewart also recorded Taekkyeon's goal is to throw the opponent. As for Taekkyeon-Yetbub, this is Sibak which you probably also haven't heard of. It is a street fighting game like the Prize Fight record I showed. Taekkyeon has 2 systems in it: regular Taekkyeon & Taekkyeon-Yetbub (Sibak). Sibak was recorded "also Taekkyeon" in medieval Korean encyclopedia Jaemulbo.

North Korean Gyuksul is famous in South Korea. What's not well known is that it used to be boxing-like rule, which suggests its Subak origin. Then, it added kicks in the contests; it became more like Taekkyeon-Yetbub (Sibak) which involves kicking, headbutt, punching, etc. You probably have heard of Taekkyeon but you probably haven't heard of Yetbub and Sibak neither. Non-Japanese sports of Korea are not well known to the world.

Even on this website, when you list Korean martial art examples, you list Japanese sports like Judo, Kendo here instead of actual traditional Korean arts that are still being taught today including Taekkyeon & Taekkyeon Yetbub & 18ki & Bon Gook Gum.

I don't think Subak was created by Buddhist monks. It's not known like that. Subak is not well known mostly because South Korea didn't have Subak. Only North Korea's Songdo had Subak in the modern era. According to reputable sources, Subak had frontal slaps and punches aside from also including side slaps. Subyuk moves are included in Subak; Subyuk moves are not the entire Subak. Subak had punches like Gyuksul.


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## Gweilo (Jan 31, 2019)

After the unification of Korea, and the defeating of the T'ang Dynasty, the mind of the Korean peoples rapidly began to shift from confrontations to more philosophic thoughts. The Hwa Rang fell into decline by the end of the seventh century, until they became virtually nonexistent. They became known more as a group specializing in healing, Buddhist philosophy, and poetry than a warrior troupe.

Su Bak
Su Bak is the first documented martial art system to have existed on the Korean Peninsula. Dating its origination relies predominantly upon legend, however. Korean historians often place its inception during the legendary rule of King Tan'gun, (2333 B.C.E.). There is, however, no historical data to prove this time frame. There are historic records of Su Bak's existence in the fourth century C.E., however. Paintings in the Kak Je Tomb, geographically located in ancient Koguryo, depict two Su Bak practitioners sparring. It is difficult to decipher what actual fighting techniques Su Bak employed, however, as the tomb paintings are vague.

During the late Three Kingdom Period, Su Bak became fragmented and differing schools of martial arts came into existence.

Yu Sul
During this period of fragmentation, a new system of Korean martial arts was formed. It was named, Yu Sul. Yu Sul was a softer grappling art, which is historians believed to be the influence which began the Japanese system of Jujitsu.

With the birth of Yu Sul there became two very different schools of martial thought on the Korean Peninsula. They were the hard, straight forward attacking methods of Su Bak — which possesses predominantly striking techniques and the softer, manipulative defenses of Yu Sul.

Tae Kyon
During this time frame Su Bak became known as Tae Kyon. Tae Kyon was written in the Chinese characters for, "Push Shoulder." The Hwa Rang warriors obviously embraced this martial art form and, as mentioned, created their own addition to it, known as Su Bak Gi or foot fighting.

Tae Kyon was born at a time when martial arts, on the now unified Korean Peninsula, went into a rapid decline. As peace came to the Korean Peninsula, there became little use for the practice of martial arts among the average individual.

The martial art system of Yu Sul declined and vanished from the Korean Peninsula almost as fast as it had developed. By the end of the 7th century there existed no sign of it. Tae Kyon, therefore, survived as the only fighting system with a link to the ancient Hwa Rang.

Upon the unification of the three kingdom, The Silla Dynasty (688-935 C.E.) came into control. This was a highly centralized Buddhist state, where arts and not warfare flourished.

The Silla Dynasty fell in 935 C.E. The Kingdom was overthrown by a rebel government, which became the Koryo Dynasty (935-1392). Though internal warfare took place in Korea, during this change in power, the average citizen was not touched by it and the countries philosophic outlook continued to grow.

In 1170, a military coup seized control of the country and by the end of the 12th century, Cho a military family, ruled Korea and suppressed the Buddhism ideals held by its civilians.

The Mongols from China began to invade the Northern outreaches of the Korean Peninsula in 1231. The Cho leadership sent the majority of its armies to fight these Northern battles. They were soon defeated by the sheer numbers of Mongolian troops. In 1258 the Cho regime was deposed and the Koryo government return to control under the guidance of the Mongols.

Though this period saw internal strife in Korea, the thoughts of the people were on philosophy and the arts, not on politics. The average citizen felt hand-to-hand combat was barbaric. Martial art practitioners were looked down upon in all regions of Korea. In fact, King Chung Mok (1344-1348) outlawed the practice of Tae Kyon by civilians, altogether.

A revolt against Mongolian rule erupted in 1356, which brought another period of disorder to the Korean Peninsula. After years of internal guerrilla warfare, the Koryo Dynasty was over thrown and the Yi Dynasty (1392-1909), who swore allegiance to the Ming Dynasty of China.

The Yi Dynasty rejected Buddhism and embraced Confucianism as the national religion. A well functioning Confucian bureaucracy came into existence, which brought about an orderly social structure and rapid educational development to Korea.

From the Yi Dynasty came the written Hangul language, composed by King Sejong (1418-1450). This is considered one of the greatest events of Korean history — as the Hangul language was the first indigenous Asian language to be independently developed and written with its own phonetic script.

Throughout the Yi Dynasty, cultural interactions between China, Japan, and Korea increased. Martial art ideologies also came to be exchanged on a limited level. Various schools of Kung Fu from China and Karate from Japan existed in a tenuous manner in Korea during this dynasty. Tae Kyon, though obviously receiving some influences from these systems, maintained itself as a highly aggressive system of self defense — predominantly utilizing assertive punching and kicking techniques. Though not practiced by the average civilian, Tae Kyon was the standard of the hand-to-hand combat for the Korean military. Through this arena, it was passed down from ancient to modern times.

As Korea entered the twentieth century, they were plagued by expansionist activity at the hands of Japanese. The Yi Dynasty, which was considered Korea's, "Age of Enlightenment," came to an end in 1909 when Japan occupied the country. Thus, the transmission and advancement of Tae Kyon ended.

Rediscovering the Ancient Korean Martial Arts
In 1935 Japanese archaeologist exploring the Tung-hua province of Manchuria, north of what is now modern day North Korea, uncovered two tombs. It was eventually established that these tombs belonged to the Tenth Kingdom of Koguryo, who had its capital in this vacinity. The tombs were constructed in the fourth century C.E.

Within these tombs were discovered murals paintings. On the ceiling of the Muyong Chong tomb is a painting depicting two male figures facing each other in what can best be described as a fighting posture. The mural painting of Kakchu Chong tomb show two men wrestling.

Also discovered was the Sok Kul An cave. At its entrance is a carved statue of the famous Korean warrior, Kum Gang Yuk Sa, from the reign of Korean King Hye Gong (742-762 C.E.). He guards the cave in a tradtional martial art pose.


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## Steven Lee (Jan 31, 2019)

No idea what you are talking about. Yusul is the Korean pronunciation of Japanese Jiujitsu.

Subak had frontal slap, lateral slap, punches. There are many records on Subak. I wrote in detail on Wiki. Subak - Wikipedia

Taekkyeon has 2 sets of sports in it. Regular Taekkyeon is a throwing game that allows kicking. Taekkyeon-Yetbeob is a street fighting game that allows punching, kicking, headbutt, etc. Yetbeob is Sibak, which was Yeok-Taekkyeon. I also wrote an article about Sibak. Sibak is similar to Subak but it has more techniques like headbutt. You probably didn't hear of Sibak neither. Murayama Jijun recorded Baksi 100 years ago. Nanjangbaksi is street fighting, which is included in Baksi. As for the general Baksi, it's a game where 2 teams try to penetrate each other's formations by pushing shoulders. Taekkyeon - Wikipedia.

Also, Korea's Breaking/Tameshiwari was not related to Korean striking martial arts such as Sibak & Subak. It was recorded to be of Charyuk/Kihapsul and correlated with Seonsul, Kooksundo. Whether Iron Palm and Karate did Breaking as a fighting related art or not, Korea was different; Korea did Breaking as a power circus.

No idea what you are trying to say.


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## Gweilo (Jan 31, 2019)

It is trying to say, you are not correct, there was only 2 original Korean arts, Subak which is a Chinese inspired art, that became Taekkyeon,  and Yul sul which was a grappling style, and is said to influence juijitsu.
I never wrote the above, it was pasted from a work from Korean historians, so please inform us of your credentials, so we can judge if you are an authority on Korean MA history, or are misinformed.


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## Steven Lee (Jan 31, 2019)

No, there were more than 2 original Korean arts. There is no Yu sul in Korea. It's just a Korean pronunciation for Japanese Jiujitsu. It's like Joseph vs Yoseph.

Ssireum became Taekkyeon; Subak became Sibak, which is also included in Taekkyeon.

"시박은 '서로 치는 것은 씨름의 일종인데 역(亦) 탁견'이라고 되어 있다." Translation: "Sibak's recorded, 'hitting each other (Sibak) is a type of wrestling, this is also Taekkyeon'." "시박? 낯선 이름이다. 위의 재물보에 수박과 함께 소개되고 있는 조선 고유의 체술 이었다." Translation: "Sibak? It's an unfamiliar name. Above in Jaemulbo, it's a Korean martial art introduced together with Subak." Murayama Jijun recorded Baksi & Nanjangbaksi in 1941, which were quite different from Taekyun.

https://mookas.com/news/11150

"경북군위군의 군사(軍士)훈련이었던 박시(재물보상의 ‘시박’으로 여겨진다. 1941년, 무라야마지준의 글에도  언급되고 있다. 수백명의 사람들이 팔짱을 끼고 서로 어깨로 밀어 붙여 진(陳)을 뚫는 것이다. 나중에 동네 왈패들이 신작로에 모여 난장박시라 하는 패싸움을 했었다)등이 있었다." Translation: Gyungbook military training Baksi, etc existed. Seems Sibak from Jaemulbo. 1941's Murayama Jijun also mentions this. Hundreds of people, arms locked, push each other with shoulders to penetrate formation. Later, town thugs gather on the road to do team street fighting called Nanjangbaksi." (Korean sometimes reverse the word order, like Baksi & Sibak.)

I have no authority on Korean martial art history. I'm an amateur historian. But the sources & the references I provide have authority in Korean martial art history.

No, there were many Korean martial arts including Subak, Taekkyeon, Sibak, Pyunssaum, Charyuk/Kihapsul/Kiaijutsu, Kooksundo (Seonsul), etc. I have shown proofs and references for those names. Also, Taekkyeon consisted of 2 different sports: regular Taekkyeon and Taekkyeon-Yetbeob. Medieval Korean encyclopedia Jaemulbo listed both Taekkyeon & Sibak; it described Sibak to be "also Taekkyeon". Murayama Jijun recorded Baksi and Nanjangbaksi which were shoulder wrestling & street fighting. Subak existed in North Korea's Songdo; this became North Korean Gyeoksul. Then Gyuksul upgraded kicks to be like Sibak (Nanjangbaksi).


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## Gweilo (Feb 1, 2019)

I have gone through your links, you are using historical pictures from the Muyong chong and Kakchu chong tombs and making your own story up. These Tombs were found in what is now north Korea, so one quick question, are of North korean decent, my guess is yes, as most of the historical dates in your link start around 1952.


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## Gweilo (Feb 1, 2019)

No need to answer that, I have just read your post in Korean MA video thread


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