# lineage



## marlon (Apr 26, 2006)

With all the self promotion throughout the kempo/kenpo world why do we not seek out the sources those...innovator, sought for ourselves and learn from closer to the source?  Why are we satisfied with what we have when we know that something is off?  Or, is it not important...is it that we can justify it historically in other arts so, so what if it is in ours?  Could complacency and ego be keeping us from getting the best of kempo/kenpo?

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## Hand Sword (Apr 27, 2006)

From what I've seen, the history part is not that important overall. People seem to just want to do the stuff. usually the history part came after years of studying. Also, yes! Ego is definitely abound in the martial art world, unfortunately.


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## CTKempo Todd (Apr 27, 2006)

marlon said:
			
		

> With all the self promotion throughout the kempo/kenpo world why do we not seek out the sources those...innovator, sought for ourselves and learn from closer to the source? Why are we satisfied with what we have when we know that something is off? Or, is it not important...is it that we can justify it historically in other arts so, so what if it is in ours? Could complacency and ego be keeping us from getting the best of kempo/kenpo?
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon


 
Marlon,

I think our instructor (Prof Ingargiola) by creating a bridge and becoming involved with Prof Kimo has done just that for us.


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## dianhsuhe (Apr 27, 2006)

Marlon, do you swim?

"Could complacency and ego be keeping us from getting the best of kempo/kenpo?" 

I very nearly drowned in a lake when I was about 6 yrs old, as a result it took me MANY years to overcome my fear of the water so my parents went through many swim teachers in the process...

I did not want to let go of the wall in the pool "read: security blanket" for fear of not being able to swim, in my mind,  clinging to the wall was easy and calming- well... it turns out that swimming was the easy part, letting go of the wall was the hard part.

Marlon, everyone is different and there are many paths that lead to the same end, you are the one that needs to decide which way to go.

If you have questions why not find the answers?

jamey


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## jgrimm01 (Apr 27, 2006)

marlon said:
			
		

> With all the self promotion throughout the kempo/kenpo world why do we not seek out the sources those...innovator, sought for ourselves and learn from closer to the source? Why are we satisfied with what we have when we know that something is off? Or, is it not important...is it that we can justify it historically in other arts so, so what if it is in ours? Could complacency and ego be keeping us from getting the best of kempo/kenpo?
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon


 
I think a large hurdle to overcome in accomplishing this is the fact that Kenpo/Kempo history is terribly fractured and there are 500 different opinions of who came up with what when and was taught by whom? Kempo/kenpo roots are shrouded in controversy from the very get-go, dating back to Ed Parker and Professor Chow...its tough to seek answers laid in history when the history itself is called into question.

But there is a flip side to that statement, a silver lining...in my opinion, that's a very large part of the 'make kempo your own' theory, allowing for the freedom to adapt and morph techniques, to customize the art to your own personal style and ability...kempo isn't bound by 1200 years of doing the same things, conforming your body/style into a preset mold someone thought up years ago regardless of whether or not it works for you. This is the power behind what makes Kempo Kempo...a base foundation upon which you build the house you've designed yourself.


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## Flying Crane (Apr 27, 2006)

marlon said:
			
		

> Why are we satisfied with what we have when we know that something is off?
> Respectfully,
> Marlon


 
If you believe something is "off", or it simply doesn't work for you, and you have done your best to figure it out, and you have not been able to find someone else who can adequately help you understand it and make it work for you, then change it or dump it.  Nobody can stop you from making your own changes, to make it better for you.  Nothing that we do is sacred.  It was created by men, not gods.  It can be changed.


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## marlon (Apr 27, 2006)

CTKempo Todd said:
			
		

> Marlon,
> 
> I think our instructor (Prof Ingargiola) by creating a bridge and becoming involved with Prof Kimo has done just that for us.


 
Hello Todd,
I appreciate Prof.I more than you can imagine.  What he has done for me as a martial artist is incredible...i also consider him a friend.  This question is actually on his web site as one of the pop ups.  It is his encouragement to me by word and his own example in seeking out answers,that leads me to many good things and people.  Prof.Ingargiola is a true martial artist and a true teacher ...a rare mix.  I am honoured to know him and learn from him.  I think the idea is a good one and wanted some discussion on the topic.  it has touched me personally and as a martial artist but that is besides the point.

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## CTKempo Todd (Apr 28, 2006)

marlon said:
			
		

> Hello Todd,
> I appreciate Prof.I more than you can imagine. What he has done for me as a martial artist is incredible...i also consider him a friend. This question is actually on his web site as one of the pop ups. It is his encouragement to me by word and his own example in seeking out answers,that leads me to many good things and people. Prof.Ingargiola is a true martial artist and a true teacher ...a rare mix. I am honoured to know him and learn from him. I think the idea is a good one and wanted some discussion on the topic. it has touched me personally and as a martial artist but that is besides the point.
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon


 

Same here Marlon..
Never stop searching (and sharing) your questions and answers on your journey


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## Rick Wade (Apr 28, 2006)

CTKempo Todd said:
			
		

> Marlon,
> 
> I think our instructor (Prof Ingargiola) by creating a bridge and becoming involved with Prof Kimo has done just that for us.


 
I know Prof. Kimo He lives here in Hawaii and teach not far from me.  

V/R

Rick


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Apr 28, 2006)

Rick Wade said:
			
		

> I know Prof. Kimo He lives here in Hawaii and teach not far from me.
> 
> V/R
> 
> Rick


 
Nice pidgin' sentence, bradda. :ultracool  He teach oah de-ah?


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## coldsteel87 (Apr 28, 2006)

marlon said:
			
		

> With all the self promotion throughout the kempo/kenpo world why do we not seek out the sources those...innovator, sought for ourselves and learn from closer to the source? Why are we satisfied with what we have when we know that something is off? Or, is it not important...is it that we can justify it historically in other arts so, so what if it is in ours? Could complacency and ego be keeping us from getting the best of kempo/kenpo?
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon


 
the thing is, alot of people branch off of an art to make it better by taking out what they see as flaws and trying to mold the art with principles from other arts. For instance prof. Chow taught kempo. One of his students, ed parker, created american kenpo. Another, fred villari, created shaolin kempo karate. Both these arts are much different then what chow originally taught. *DO NOT *though forget those who originally created, because without them the arts that came from their teachings would not exist.


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## mantis (Apr 28, 2006)

i think it's pretty important to keep lineages. however, if that does not exist i do not think people who claim to be much more experienced can last too long. 
just by walking into a dojo sometimes you can tell if they're good for real or not.


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## dianhsuhe (Apr 29, 2006)

I am trying to confirm if Villari ever trained with Professor Chow-  I was under the impression that he did not, keep in mind though that even some individuals who trained with the Professor only did so for a month or less!

Villari has a LOT of posts and threads on the boards- get a cup of coffee and do a search...

Cheers!


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## Hand Sword (May 1, 2006)

dianhsuhe said:
			
		

> I am trying to confirm if Villari ever trained with Professor Chow- I was under the impression that he did not, keep in mind though that even some individuals who trained with the Professor only did so for a month or less!
> 
> Villari has a LOT of posts and threads on the boards- get a cup of coffee and do a search...
> 
> Cheers!


 
A whole thermas would be better. There's a lot of reading ahead!


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## Gentle Fist (May 2, 2006)

dianhsuhe said:
			
		

> I am trying to confirm if Villari ever trained with Professor Chow- I was under the impression that he did not, keep in mind though that even some individuals who trained with the Professor only did so for a month or less!
> 
> Villari has a LOT of posts and threads on the boards- get a cup of coffee and do a search...
> 
> Cheers!


 
I thought we all understood that Villari never trained with Chow at all.

The short answer would be....correct me if I am wrong Seniors...

Any information Fred Villari got of Chow's teachings would have been through Nick Cerio during 1969 and 1973.  Villari only made it up to probationary Nidan under Cerio.  Villari then broke away and started teaching Karezenpo Goshinjitsu up to black then made up his own stuff for the dan ranks.  Pre-1974, Cerio taught Karenzenpo Goshinjitsu. He then modified it and created his own style of Kenpo in 1974 after training with Chow on several trips.  A lot of his new combinations and techs where based on Chow's system.

Anyone who has seen Master Bill Chun can tell you that Chow's Kenpo and Shaolin Kempo are very different.


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## KGS BBS (May 2, 2006)

Pretty much on the money, Fistlaw, although the dates of the training trips to Hawaii were from 1966 (Cerio's shodan from Chow was dated in August of '66) to 1971. I do believe Gm. Villari did visit Prof. Chow one time after he left Prof. Cerio (he left him in '71). I can't say for sure if there was any type of training that one time or it was just a sit down and talk. He did have an autographed photo of Prof. Chow from this visit. I have a copy of the original. He also created the SKK form 'Shou Tung Kwok' (that's the original spelling) when he came back from Hawaii. That's all I know about it. With respect, Prof. Joe


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## Gentle Fist (May 2, 2006)

Thanks for the date fix, I knew it was 66 or 60, I thought he kept in touch with Chow until 73 though....


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## Kalicombat (May 2, 2006)

In getting back to the original post, I have a few points that I'd like to make. 

First, do not confuse the fact that a student will have stumbling blocks along their education in kenpo with the fact that those same stumbling blocks are useless material. We've all found a technique that we had trouble with. This does not make the technique less effective, merely a stumbling block that we must overcome. 

Before anyone can start cutting material from their schools curriculum, they must first learn all of the curriculum and have a working proficiency of the material. Understand the in's and out of the material and the why's, not just the how's. If after labor intensive training and trial and error, about $10,000 to get your own school off the ground, establishing a student base, maintaining a student base, having your books in the black for a year, consultation with seniors in your system to run your proposed changes by, take their input and see if it is valid, and a miriade of other considerations, then by all means, change your curriculum. But, don't do it simply to reduce the volume of material for  your aspiring blackbelt students to learn so that in 5 years, when they decide that 20% of what they learned to get their black is unimportant, they breakout, start their own school, and strip another 20%. Low and behold, another 5 or 6 years down the road, one of their students has the same incling, and so on, and so on, until some 5th generation student of yours in doing 5 techniques and a form to get his blackbelt. 

The beauty of EPAK is that all this has been done for you. You simply have to apply sweat, determination, an open mind, and a loyal mind, and VOILA, you have yourself an effective self defense arsenal to go forth into the night and defeat all those pesky ninjas in the parking lot.

I'll liken it to a car. You can buy all the parts and assemble it yourself, apply for a DOT title, pass all the tests and requirements to make your new "creation" road worthy. Or, you can get on down to the dealership of your choice and pick you up one of those shinny new ones, already assembled, road ready, and just hop on in, pay your $3.00 a gallon, and off you go. 

To quote someone, "if it aint broke, don't fix it". 

Just my opinion,
Gary Catherman


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## marlon (May 2, 2006)

Kalicombat said:
			
		

> In getting back to the original post, I have a few points that I'd like to make.
> 
> First, do not confuse the fact that a student will have stumbling blocks along their education in kenpo with the fact that those same stumbling blocks are useless material. We've all found a technique that we had trouble with. This does not make the technique less effective, merely a stumbling block that we must overcome.
> 
> ...


 
What if Ed Parker did it your way...?

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## Kalicombat (May 2, 2006)

'What if' does not apply here. He didn't do it my way, he did it his way. He created his AMERICAN KENPO. Im happy with it and secure that it is effective, efficient, and reliable. 

Gary C.


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## KGS BBS (May 3, 2006)

According to Prof. Cerio his last training session with Prof. Chow was in 1971. He stated he was mistakenly under the impression that after that year, Prof. Chow was no longer teaching. Prof. Chow spoke very highly of Prof. Cerio in Black Belt nagazine's "The Lost Interview". Here's what he said about Nick Cerio:

BB: When I go back to the mainland in a few months, who can I go to to learn true kara-ho?
Chow: You go see Nick Cerio. He my black belt and teach you kara-ho. Ill call him for you.

Respectfully, Prof. Joe


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