# Thoughts on flexible weapons nunchaku monkey fist flail meteor hammer etc?



## jaime_lion (Jul 6, 2019)

So I am not a fan of flexible weapons. Like they look good in routines but I have yet to really see the martial aspect of them. When compared to non-flexible counterparts I don't see any advantage. I am wondering your guys thoughts and if you guys have any stories of people using them in martial applications?


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## rondave72 (Jul 6, 2019)

Carry a katana down the street and people look at you funny.  

Wear a sack pack with a padlock hanging off one strap and no one bats an eye.




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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 7, 2019)

You work with what you have, and there are cases where what you have is a flexible weapon.       They are used differently than shown in routines though, same with a lot of weapons. 

The bikelock attached to a chain, and a chain in general are used quite a lot by people also, its the easiest weapon to get.   But there is a knack to using them, more so than another type of weapon.

They work pretty well if you have the knack down to them.    Plus you can restrain somone with them pending design better than you can a non flexable one, if its literally a rope with a weight at the end or a weighted rope, it has all the use that rope has.  


As for actual situations, just look at riots for the bike locks/chains and look at people using whips in general as weapons.  Or their jacket (which i would deem flexable as its textiles)


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## jaime_lion (Jul 7, 2019)

rondave72 said:


> Carry a katana down the street and people look at you funny.
> 
> Wear a sack pack with a padlock hanging off one strap and no one bats an eye.
> 
> ...



What I am getting at is there are better weapons. like a cane.



Rat said:


> You work with what you have, and there are cases where what you have is a flexible weapon.       They are used differently than shown in routines though, same with a lot of weapons.
> 
> The bikelock attached to a chain, and a chain in general are used quite a lot by people also, its the easiest weapon to get.   But there is a knack to using them, more so than another type of weapon.
> 
> ...



But if I am going to go through the trouble of carrying a bike lock why not use a baseball bat?

Not saying they dont work if you really really practice with them but for the amount of time and such I would put into training with a flexible weapon a non-flexible weapon takes less skill and is easier.

I have looked at videos I can find on YouTube and I dont see flexible weapons being very useful.

Also in what kind of altercation would I be able to tie someone up with a flexible weapon?


Also what about historical uses for these kinds of weapons?


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 8, 2019)

jaime_lion said:


> But if I am going to go through the trouble of carrying a bike lock why not use a baseball bat?



As the point made above, a bike lock isnt as suspicious as a katana is if you are walking around.    And if its a protest they generally do weapons checks etc.    Or if its a county you cant carry weapons in you have a better defence if you grab a lock and chain you had a reason for carrying and using it to whoop someone with.  (or its easier to hide on your persons than one long rigid piece of material)



jaime_lion said:


> Also what about historical uses for these kinds of weapons?



The the historical use is a mixture of above, it being uses as a means to arrest people and giving the person who was arresting them a method to defend themselves. Kind of like having a sword and pistol for when pistols were one shot/weak in power/unreliable to be shot.   Depends where and when, a chain with a  weight on it can break bone, but you can use it to joint lock people as well.       Or its just something they have on them, like a whip would be used if you only had  a whip on you.        Chains are easier and less encombersome than a solid bar of steel as you can wrap it around your waist etc.        

Or its something someone has made as they dont have any other weapons available to them so they attach a weight or something to chain or cord, or grab a chain or cord to beat someone with.          Or its a training instrument for further martial practice/demonstration for skill.        Or anything above.  

A garrote is also a assassination tool as well and thats a flexible weapon.  Some things arent meant for combat with people they are meant to be used to kill them from a good ambush.  

Underlying point is, you work with what you have and can get and everything has its place in use, only underlying issue is for flexible weapons the whipping motion isnt as natural as the clubbing motion you get with a club or knife.  There is more of a knack to it and you can have it whip around and yourself.        And of course personal preference/situation.    you make the choice of weapon based on your situation and skill set.  

Some repeat points made between the quotes.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 8, 2019)

jaime_lion said:


> So I am not a fan of flexible weapons. Like they look good in routines but I have yet to really see the martial aspect of them. When compared to non-flexible counterparts I don't see any advantage. I am wondering your guys thoughts and if you guys have any stories of people using them in martial applications?


To me, practicing flexible weapons is a way of rounding out your ability to use ordinary objects as weapons. Having some light competence with a range of quite different weapons (stick, staff, nunchaku, rope, etc.) gives you a lot of range. As for carrying, a lot of them (like the monkey fist) are harder for most folks to recognize as a weapon - and many of these started out as things that were ready at hand.


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## jaime_lion (Jul 8, 2019)

Rat said:


> As the point made above, a bike lock isnt as suspicious as a katana is if you are walking around.    And if its a protest they generally do weapons checks etc.    Or if its a county you cant carry weapons in you have a better defence if you grab a lock and chain you had a reason for carrying and using it to whoop someone with.  (or its easier to hide on your persons than one long rigid piece of material)
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Do you have any specific examples of people using flexible weapons in history? I have heard the generic " nunchaku started out as a flail but got turned into a weapon by people who could not carry a weapon" thing allot.

What is your martial arts background Rat?

Why would I carry a sword in this day and age?

Joint lock and tieing people up seems like fantasy.

A Garrotte works but I really wasnt asking about them in my original question. It possibly needed t be more clear.



gpseymour said:


> To me, practicing flexible weapons is a way of rounding out your ability to use ordinary objects as weapons. Having some light competence with a range of quite different weapons (stick, staff, nunchaku, rope, etc.) gives you a lot of range. As for carrying, a lot of them (like the monkey fist) are harder for most folks to recognize as a weapon - and many of these started out as things that were ready at hand.



I see. With me I don't practice anything that I wouldn't carry with me like a sword. It is better to carry a purpose built weapon than use improvised weapons. I mean even in the UK I am sure you can still carry a cane. I would rather use a cane that I know and trust in a fight than allot of other objects. That is one of my "issues" with the martial arts to many archaic weapons. 

Here are some videos showing lock in sock attacks











Here is a video of a guy getting hit by a soap in a sock








Do You guys think I need to "empty my cup" Like am I not having an open mind enough with this stuff?


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## rondave72 (Jul 8, 2019)

Historically, I don’t think you can doubt the effectiveness of flails.  And that’s what we’re essentially talking about, an improvised or easily concealable flail.

The idea of concealment may be getting a wee bit off the original question of whether flexibile weapon are effective as rigid ones like a bat or staff, but I don’t think there is really any doubt that they can.

The cane can be carried without drawing much attention if you look like you need a cane.  6’ 2”, 235 lbs. and looking like a college linebacker?  I’m not buying the cane as a health aid.  55 years old, 42” waistline?  More believable and really cool in the hands of someone proficient with it.




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## jaime_lion (Jul 8, 2019)

rondave72 said:


> Historically, I don’t think you can doubt the effectiveness of flails.  And that’s what we’re essentially talking about, an improvised or easily concealable flail.
> 
> The idea of concealment may be getting a wee bit off the original question of whether flexibile weapon are effective as rigid ones like a bat or staff, but I don’t think there is really any doubt that they can.
> 
> ...



I have carried a cane multiple times I stop because it gets cumbersome in my daily activity. I have never had anyone ask, Do you need that? or anything. Actually the reverse is true people assume I need it and move out or my way and have asked if I needed any help. One time when I was 18ish I had a cane at a halloween haunted house. The guy warned me that there was a couple of spots in the haunted house that had a mattress on the floor and was worried I might fall. I said actually the cane is a prop and he was like ok thats good just making sure. I also had a kung fu fighting fan and possibly a kubotan with me at the time. Actually I was on a bus and to get around town and I pulled out my kung fu fan and said my costume was part geisha. Everyone on the bus who even knew what that was laughed which was 2 people and they explained it to everyone else. No one said anything about the fan being made of metal or anything.

I tend to see this common issue where people worry to much about what people think of them. When in reality people are to concerned with their own lives to care.

Flails were not very often used. One can speculate is that they were not very good compared to the counterparts of a mace or sword etc. Also carrying them becomes an issue.

Also there is a biker gang in the USA that are called the Hells Angels. They carry around ball peen hammers because they are not a weapon. I would rather have that than a flail also.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 8, 2019)

jaime_lion said:


> Do you have any specific examples of people using flexible weapons in history? I have heard the generic " nunchaku started out as a flail but got turned into a weapon by people who could not carry a weapon" thing allot.
> 
> What is your martial arts background Rat?
> 
> ...



Weighted chain, forget the Japanese name, whips would have been used i suspect, rope probably would have been used as well, apart from the nunchcuks, garrote etc.The European flails are also present as well being used primarily against armoured opponents.        And in modern day the bikelock on a chain is used (and that is a historic example as they precede the current day by a few decades, same with modern chains being used and people using decorative chains to flail people with)    

If you want specif primary source citations i cannot give you that and they are hard to come by and have certain issues with them.  

I have enough of a background to tell you begin whipped with a chain and padlock hurts and its overlooked unlike certain other things.  

It isnt as much of a fantasy as you might think, not everyone wants a lethal fight with you and not everyone could be armed everywhere across all peroids,so as a dual purpose weapon being capable of defending yourself with and also restraining people with its useful.    As for rope, you need some form of rope or cord to restriant somone with so you might as well have it be a weapon in its own right so it can work as a auxiliary.  




And above, the point was concealability and legality.  Replace sword with bat, club etc.  




rondave72 said:


> The cane can be carried without drawing much attention if you look like you need a cane. 6’ 2”, 235 lbs. and looking like a college linebacker? I’m not buying the cane as a health aid. 55 years old, 42” waistline? More believable and really cool in the hands of someone proficient with it.



if you dress right you can conceal a cane/swagger stick, also conceability and legality are both considerations to what weapon you use/have access to, both in current day and historically.    So its not fully irreverent.  




jaime_lion said:


> Do You guys think I need to "empty my cup" Like am I not having an open mind enough with this stuff?



Wait in the U.K, you cant be carrying a blade for self defence in the U.K, you cant carry anything for self defence in the U.K, it switches it to being a offensive weapon.    i am 95% sure if something is stated as being for self defence it is considered a offensive weapon, if you USE it, maybe.   But that would be post lawful self defence (i would hope) so you have a legal defence.     for the third time to make it clear, in the U.K.       (apart from N. ireland police can can get a pistol cert for self defence reasons)

And as i said, the underlying point is, they have their place and their uses and some people fit the area of it being one of the weapons they can only get.     you work with what you got and have and can reliably get.    All weapons generally have their place, some are more specialist than others so fewer people have use for them in fewer situations.      

As a training instrument is also a valid reason for it being used, be that for its weapon type or to better understand other aspects of body movement.


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## jaime_lion (Jul 8, 2019)

rondave72 said:


> Historically, I don’t think you can doubt the effectiveness of flails.  And that’s what we’re essentially talking about, an improvised or easily concealable flail.
> 
> The idea of concealment may be getting a wee bit off the original question of whether flexibile weapon are effective as rigid ones like a bat or staff, but I don’t think there is really any doubt that they can.
> 
> ...




Here is a video talking about the issues with the flail


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 8, 2019)

jaime_lion said:


> Do you have any specific examples of people using flexible weapons in history? I have heard the generic " nunchaku started out as a flail but got turned into a weapon by people who could not carry a weapon" thing allot.
> 
> What is your martial arts background Rat?
> 
> ...


My issue is that I don't really expect to be attacked. I plan for that non-expectation, and the fact that it's entirely likely I won't be carrying a weapon when the attack happens. I volunteer security at a courthouse, and have zero weapons at that checkpoint (and am allowed none). I travel a lot by plane, so a cane is about the only really useful weapon I could expect to carry - and that is a rather hefty inconvenience when traveling with luggage and training equipment. So, I train for the ability to make use of what I can lay hands on, rather than training for a specific weapon. I'm decent with a club or escrima stick (among other things), but I doubt I'll have either handy in most places.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 8, 2019)

rondave72 said:


> Historically, I don’t think you can doubt the effectiveness of flails.  And that’s what we’re essentially talking about, an improvised or easily concealable flail.
> 
> The idea of concealment may be getting a wee bit off the original question of whether flexibile weapon are effective as rigid ones like a bat or staff, but I don’t think there is really any doubt that they can.
> 
> ...


Actually, there are plenty of folks who are not particularly old or overweight and who look otherwise healthy who sometimes need canes. I teach and train martial arts, and have owned a few canes since my 20's, since my knees (and one foot) sometimes make them quite useful for staying on my feet when walking distances.


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## jaime_lion (Jul 8, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> My issue is that I don't really expect to be attacked. I plan for that non-expectation, and the fact that it's entirely likely I won't be carrying a weapon when the attack happens. I volunteer security at a courthouse, and have zero weapons at that checkpoint (and am allowed none). I travel a lot by plane, so a cane is about the only really useful weapon I could expect to carry - and that is a rather hefty inconvenience when traveling with luggage and training equipment. So, I train for the ability to make use of what I can lay hands on, rather than training for a specific weapon. I'm decent with a club or escrima stick (among other things), but I doubt I'll have either handy in most places.




The courtroom I was doing jury duty in only had sheriffs doing the security. Would you be allowed a 6 d cell maglite flashlight? Yeah I dont travel much if at all.


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## jaime_lion (Jul 8, 2019)

So does anyone have any stories historical or modern of people using nunchaku or manriki chains or meteor hammers or rope darts or 9 section whips or 3 section staffs or 2 section staffs or a flail or any other historical flexible weapon I have not mentioned? I would like some stories even if they are probably just legend. I have asked for specific stories in my original post and no one has posted any.

If you carry a flexible weapon how many of you have tested it to see how well it does? How much time have you practiced with it?

If you have not practiced with it and dont know how it behaves why are you responding like you do?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 8, 2019)

jaime_lion said:


> If you carry a flexible weapon how many of you have tested it to see how well it does? How much time have you practiced with it?
> 
> If you have not practiced with it and dont know how it behaves why are you responding like you do?


You're missing the people (a good portion of us) who have practiced with it but don't carry it. I can theoretically use nunchucks. They would definitely not be my first, 3rd or 10th weapon choice, both from me not being a huge fan, not having a reason to carry them, and issues against other weapons. Also, people who are in/have gone to dog brother events have told me people that try to use nunchucks typically don't do well. Not sure if that's a training issue, environment issue, rules issue, or weapon issue, but it's enough for me to not devote more time to it.

For those not familiar with nunchucks, and only know of nunchakus, here is a picture for reference.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





The goal is to throw (or "chuck") the nuns as hard as you can at your opponent, either resulting in the picking up their hands so you can shoot in for a double-leg takedown, or pausing them to help you run away. Douse them in holy water, and they become very effective against demons. Note: nuns are not life-size. Unless you're really strong, then they can be.


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## jaime_lion (Jul 8, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> You're missing the people (a good portion of us) who have practiced with it but don't carry it. I can theoretically use nunchucks. They would definitely not be my first, 3rd or 10th weapon choice, both from me not being a huge fan, not having a reason to carry them, and issues against other weapons. Also, people who are in/have gone to dog brother events have told me people that try to use nunchucks typically don't do well. Not sure if that's a training issue, environment issue, rules issue, or weapon issue, but it's enough for me to not devote more time to it.
> 
> For those not familiar with nunchucks, and only know of nunchakus, here is a picture for reference.
> 
> ...




My nunchucks win in a fight against your nunchucks.










Google Image Result for https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a8/8f/7b/a88f7b65e9d2e18722a478d8a08aacec.jpg


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## drop bear (Jul 8, 2019)

Apparently biker whips are a thing.


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## MetalBoar (Jul 8, 2019)

Weapons... What a topic. I've trained in a number of weapons arts and arts that did some weapons training. I think the main reason to train in any weapon (unless it's part of your job), including modern weapons like firearms, is because it's interesting, fun and may teach you something useful about combat in general. In some cases (looking at you Aikido) they may be a useful tool for teaching the principles, movement and body mechanics utilized by the style.

I got to participate in a small weapons demonstration that my Hapkido instructor put on for the few students who were really interested. He could do amazing things with a large handkerchief that definitely qualified as a flexible weapon. He was super creative with it and used it in a lot of different ways, to block, catch and trap, to increase leverage for throws (after catching a limb with it), as a distraction with a quick snap, and other things I don't even remember at this point, it was awesome! If he hadn't closed his school it was one of the things I really intended to pay private lesson rates to get him to teach me.

He didn't teach it as part of the regular curriculum because he said it took way too long to learn and that adults in America with full time jobs and families and things could get a lot more value out of putting that time into the fundamental empty hand techniques. But he felt that way about all the weapons, he did some great demos with a very short thick stick that I can't remember the name of, the cane and some other things, but he didn't think any of them were worth the time they took to learn for most people.  

I would certainly agree that most flexible weapons, especially exotic flexible weapons like the rope dart, are pretty impractical if you're looking for a direct, real world application. I also suspect that very few people teach/train the more exotic ones with anything more than form demonstration in mind. I've never done any real training with any of them, but I wouldn't be surprised if they had some utility at least in some circumstances as a training aid for improving coordination, instilling an understanding of certain principles and that sort of thing. I also used to know a guy who could break a variety of things with the meteor hammer much like the guy does with the pots at ~2:10 in this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhW67MBO8M8





I don't know if it could be used practically in a fight but I wouldn't want to get hit by someone who knew what they were doing with one either!


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## jaime_lion (Jul 8, 2019)

MetalBoar said:


> Weapons... What a topic. I've trained in a number of weapons arts and arts that did some weapons training. I think the main reason to train in any weapon (unless it's part of your job), including modern weapons like firearms, is because it's interesting, fun and may teach you something useful about combat in general. In some cases (looking at you Aikido) they may be a useful tool for teaching the principles, movement and body mechanics utilized by the style.
> 
> I got to participate in a small weapons demonstration that my Hapkido instructor put on for the few students who were really interested. He could do amazing things with a large handkerchief that definitely qualified as a flexible weapon. He was super creative with it and used it in a lot of different ways, to block, catch and trap, to increase leverage for throws (after catching a limb with it), as a distraction with a quick snap, and other things I don't even remember at this point, it was awesome! If he hadn't closed his school it was one of the things I really intended to pay private lesson rates to get him to teach me.
> 
> ...




Was looking for the video but I can not find it. There was a video where they tested a meteor hammer against a punch and they both had about the same force. The only difference was the meteor hammers was a punch 15 feet away or something like that.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 8, 2019)

jaime_lion said:


> My nunchucks win in a fight against your nunchucks.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Are you really going to risk the wrath of chuck norris by tossing him around? You're a braver man than I


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 9, 2019)

jaime_lion said:


> The courtroom I was doing jury duty in only had sheriffs doing the security. Would you be allowed a 6 d cell maglite flashlight? Yeah I dont travel much if at all.


We have volunteers, backed up by a deputy (though they can't always be present - they also have to do rounds occasionally). And, no, we're not allowed something so obviously a weapon as that. I've identified two easy weapons in the area: a stick used to dislodge anything that gets stuck in the x-ray machine (not very stout - I may replace it someday with a hanbo), and the first roller on the exit ramp of the x-ray machine (easily removed, much heavier than the stick, and probably less likely to break).


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 9, 2019)

jaime_lion said:


> So does anyone have any stories historical or modern of people using nunchaku or manriki chains or meteor hammers or rope darts or 9 section whips or 3 section staffs or 2 section staffs or a flail or any other historical flexible weapon I have not mentioned? I would like some stories even if they are probably just legend. I have asked for specific stories in my original post and no one has posted any.
> 
> If you carry a flexible weapon how many of you have tested it to see how well it does? How much time have you practiced with it?
> 
> If you have not practiced with it and dont know how it behaves why are you responding like you do?


I don't have any stories of historical use of any of those weapons, but I can respond to the second part of this. Part of my "flexible weapons" training is using textiles. Specifically, I've trained using an obi (belt) for blocking, takedowns, and restraint. In fact, my normal yellow-belt promotion "ceremony" is surprising the student during a demonstration by taking them down with the new yellow belt, wrapping it around their neck (the start of a strangle) and telling them to go change their belt.

Seriously, I've done a bit of training off and on - enough to get an idea of how to use a sturdy strip of flexible material (it works about the same with a leather belt, which I pretty much always have on, except in the gym). My focus is mainly on understanding where it's an advantage over empty hands, and where it's a liability.


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## pdg (Jul 9, 2019)

jaime_lion said:


> The only difference was the meteor hammers was a punch 15 feet away or something like that.



You're saying that like it's nothing.

Foregoing any sort of argument about why hit someone that far away - if they're 15 feet away, how are they going to hit back?



And yet again I would draw into question the validity of any and all 'force' measurements done in videos... Because, every time, it's balls.


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## pdg (Jul 9, 2019)

jaime_lion said:


> Also there is a biker gang in the USA that are called the Hells Angels. They carry around ball peen hammers because they are not a weapon



Interesting that you call one of (if not the) biggest patch clubs in the world, with chapters in almost every country, a "biker gang".

Also interesting is that you think you can state 'they' (I can only assume you mean all of them) carry hammers to avoid weapons charges.

Did you get that info from YouTube as well?


Know your audience mate, we're not Catholic schoolgirls who are going to be impressed by your (wrong) knowledge of 'biker gang' weapon culture.

In other words, stop talking crap.


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## jaime_lion (Jul 9, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I don't have any stories of historical use of any of those weapons, but I can respond to the second part of this. Part of my "flexible weapons" training is using textiles. Specifically, I've trained using an obi (belt) for blocking, takedowns, and restraint. In fact, my normal yellow-belt promotion "ceremony" is surprising the student during a demonstration by taking them down with the new yellow belt, wrapping it around their neck (the start of a strangle) and telling them to go change their belt.
> 
> Seriously, I've done a bit of training off and on - enough to get an idea of how to use a sturdy strip of flexible material (it works about the same with a leather belt, which I pretty much always have on, except in the gym). My focus is mainly on understanding where it's an advantage over empty hands, and where it's a liability.



Are these duels or are you fighting like you would in an actual fight?



pdg said:


> You're saying that like it's nothing.
> 
> Foregoing any sort of argument about why hit someone that far away - if they're 15 feet away, how are they going to hit back?
> 
> ...



This was an actual documentary done by discovery I believe.



pdg said:


> Interesting that you call one of (if not the) biggest patch clubs in the world, with chapters in almost every country, a "biker gang".
> 
> Also interesting is that you think you can state 'they' (I can only assume you mean all of them) carry hammers to avoid weapons charges.
> 
> ...



Nope I got my info from going to the Sturgis motorcycle rally every year. My info might be out of date but I am assuming at least some old time members still carry a ball peen hammer. We can call it a patch club if it makes you feel better. Its a bit tomato potato in my mind but its cool. Like with taoist philosophy names limit what a thing is for.

One year I took a twilight sparkle my little pony plushie to the Sturgis motorcycle rally. I even asked 2 separate hells angels if I could take a picture with them holding her. They declined. 

This year I am planning on taking my body pillow with nala from the lion king on it there. Will post the pics I take.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 9, 2019)

jaime_lion said:


> Are these duels or are you fighting like you would in an actual fight?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Discovery also aired that thing about mermaids existing, with one disclaimer about it.

Even without that, things on the discovery channel and similar channels are generally in the realm of "pop science", which should always be taken with a hint of skepticism.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 9, 2019)

jaime_lion said:


> Are these duels or are you fighting like you would in an actual fight?


I'm not sure what a duel with cloth belts would even look like.


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## jobo (Jul 9, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I'm not sure what a duel with cloth belts would even look like.


a bit like a pillow fight I expect !


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 9, 2019)

jobo said:


> a bit like a pillow fight I expect !


But with less actual hitting.


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## jaime_lion (Jul 9, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I'm not sure what a duel with cloth belts would even look like.



It would not look like this.


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## frank raud (Jul 9, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I'm not sure what a duel with cloth belts would even look like.


  Apparently the marine khaki belt with metal buckle is sometimes used as a flail/whip.     https://www.amazon.com/Helikon-Mari...+marines+belt&qid=1562715831&s=gateway&sr=8-6


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 10, 2019)

frank raud said:


> Apparently the marine khaki belt with metal buckle is sometimes used as a flail/whip.     https://www.amazon.com/Helikon-Mari...+marines+belt&qid=1562715831&s=gateway&sr=8-6


Yeah, there are plenty of ways to use a belt (not sure I'd advocate the flail approach, unless the buckle is hella heavy). I was responding to his baiting comment about duels.


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## frank raud (Jul 10, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> In fact, my normal yellow-belt promotion "ceremony" is surprising the student during a demonstration by taking them down with the new yellow belt, wrapping it around their neck (the start of a strangle) and telling them to go change their belt.


  One of my instructors often demonstrates using a belt to block a punch, wraps the belt around the neck, and throws you in a modified neck throw using the belt, finishing off with a strangle on the ground. Has a tendency to scare folks who aren't used to being thrown.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 10, 2019)

frank raud said:


> One of my instructors often demonstrates using a belt to block a punch, wraps the belt around the neck, and throws you in a modified neck throw using the belt, finishing off with a strangle on the ground. Has a tendency to scare folks who aren't used to being thrown.


It is startling. My “promotion ceremony” is sneaky. I have the belt stashed in my gi, and in the middle of demonstrating whatever the technique of the day is, I extract it and use it to take them down. I think the rest of the class enjoy it more than the person being promoted.


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## jaime_lion (Jul 10, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Yeah, there are plenty of ways to use a belt (not sure I'd advocate the flail approach, unless the buckle is hella heavy). I was responding to his baiting comment about duels.


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## jaime_lion (Jul 10, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Yeah, there are plenty of ways to use a belt (not sure I'd advocate the flail approach, unless the buckle is hella heavy). I was responding to his baiting comment about duels.





frank raud said:


> One of my instructors often demonstrates using a belt to block a punch, wraps the belt around the neck, and throws you in a modified neck throw using the belt, finishing off with a strangle on the ground. Has a tendency to scare folks who aren't used to being thrown.



This is one of my issues with the martial arts. If you have a belt lets say and you tell the other person to punch you and they do 1 punch and you show how you use the belt. That is great for showing the technique but it is not fighting. It is more like dueling. What you should be doing in is telling the other person to attack you in any way they want and to actually resist then you use a belt. 
Depending on what belt you are using maybe even having to take it off your pants. If you do anything else you are fooling yourself when it comes to self defense.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 10, 2019)

jaime_lion said:


> This is one of my issues with the martial arts. If you have a belt lets say and you tell the other person to punch you and they do 1 punch and you show how you use the belt. That is great for showing the technique but it is not fighting. It is more like dueling. What you should be doing in is telling the other person to attack you in any way they want and to actually resist then you use a belt.
> Depending on what belt you are using maybe even having to take it off your pants. If you do anything else you are fooling yourself when it comes to self defense.


Well, yeah. Thats called a demonstration (and is definitely not dueling). I dont think any of the people who have responded are referring to that when they say theyve trained with a weapon.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 10, 2019)

jaime_lion said:


> This is one of my issues with the martial arts. If you have a belt lets say and you tell the other person to punch you and they do 1 punch and you show how you use the belt. That is great for showing the technique but it is not fighting. It is more like dueling. What you should be doing in is telling the other person to attack you in any way they want and to actually resist then you use a belt.
> Depending on what belt you are using maybe even having to take it off your pants. If you do anything else you are fooling yourself when it comes to self defense.


Nice set of assumptions you have there.


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## frank raud (Jul 10, 2019)

jaime_lion said:


> This is one of my issues with the martial arts. If you have a belt lets say and you tell the other person to punch you and they do 1 punch and you show how you use the belt. That is great for showing the technique but it is not fighting. It is more like dueling. What you should be doing in is telling the other person to attack you in any way they want and to actually resist then you use a belt.
> Depending on what belt you are using maybe even having to take it off your pants. If you do anything else you are fooling yourself when it comes to self defense.


 So, because an instructor DEMONSTRATES a single technique, you can assume he is not capable of "free-styling" a response to any attack? And that most students, as they are learning, would be able to learn multiple techniques and responses faster and better if instead of learning them in some kind of sequence, basically got thrown into the deep end? So, what exactly is your martial arts background?


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## John Codero (May 14, 2020)

I practise Ng Ying Kungfu and we also have flexible weapons like Nunchaku, Chain, Meteor Hammer. 

The Nunchaku is most effective and easyier to apply in selfdefense.

Overall many flexible weapons look like showe weapons in martial arts. I do not like them.

Better use a normal belt or something


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 14, 2020)

John Codero said:


> I practise Ng Ying Kungfu and we also have flexible weapons like Nunchaku, Chain, Meteor Hammer.
> 
> The Nunchaku is most effective and easyier to apply in selfdefense.
> 
> ...


Is a nunchaku something you carry around in your day to day duties, though? No matter how good a weapon is for SD, it's useless if you don't have it when you need it.


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## Deleted member 39746 (May 16, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Is a nunchaku something you carry around in your day to day duties, though? No matter how good a weapon is for SD, it's useless if you don't have it when you need it.



Arent they generally easier (at least in some respects) to conceal?      Since its not say a X length rigid object you have to hide on your persons, its two short sticks connected by some form of cordage.      that can be easier pending circumstance.              that is as far as i know the appeal to that chain weapon, that its pretty easy to hide on you.


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## Headhunter (May 16, 2020)

Rat said:


> Arent they generally easier (at least in some respects) to conceal?      Since its not say a X length rigid object you have to hide on your persons, its two short sticks connected by some form of cordage.      that can be easier pending circumstance.              that is as far as i know the appeal to that chain weapon, that its pretty easy to hide on you.


and who apart from a Bruce Lee movie character is actually going to carry one around


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## Gerry Seymour (May 16, 2020)

Rat said:


> Arent they generally easier (at least in some respects) to conceal?      Since its not say a X length rigid object you have to hide on your persons, its two short sticks connected by some form of cordage.      that can be easier pending circumstance.              that is as far as i know the appeal to that chain weapon, that its pretty easy to hide on you.


In the US, they are often illegal. And while someone _could_ carry one, the question was whether that person actually _does_.


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## Deleted member 39746 (May 17, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> In the US, they are often illegal. And while someone _could_ carry one, the question was whether that person actually _does_.



The reminds me, somewhere banned them for being a garrot, that is just hillarious to me.  I also forgot they are one of the weapons pretty much globally subject to scrutiny.  

Would be nice if someone did some testing to compare diffrent designs of them to convetional weapons and a chain basically.   Pending cirumstance it might be easier to conceal than some tradtional weapons.     And as we know ease of carry translates into how much you would want to carry the thing.


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## lklawson (May 20, 2020)

Rat said:


> The reminds me, somewhere banned them for being a garrot, that is just hillarious to me.


The chucks?  Hmm... Maybe... I guess...   I know for a fact that there are documented cases (late 19th Century U.S.) where a slungshot (the "monkey fist flail") was used as a garotte.  I read the accounts.  IMS, I think the perp was sent to Singsing.

If I squint, I can see someone linking the fact that a slungshot has been used as a garotte to a pair of chucks being used.  Heck, I bet if you look around you could probably find someone instructing it right now.  Probably find it in a book.  Maybe even find it in bad 70's Karate/Kung Fu movies.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (May 20, 2020)

Rat said:


> The reminds me, somewhere banned them for being a garrot, that is just hillarious to me.


Boom:
Nunchaku – Fourth Weapon of Matayoshi Kobudo | Matayoshi Kobudu International - UK Branch
You are being redirected...
La Crosse man charged in Rochester with strangling woman with nunchucks, biting her eye
Southbridge man charged with trying to strangle girlfriend with nunchucks
How effective are nunchaku as a choking weapon?
Man sentenced to 16 years for killing mother with nunchucks – East Bay Times
Urban Dictionary: nunchaku
Nunchaku - Wikipedia


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## Deleted member 39746 (May 20, 2020)

lklawson said:


> Boom:
> Nunchaku – Fourth Weapon of Matayoshi Kobudo | Matayoshi Kobudu International - UK Branch
> You are being redirected...
> La Crosse man charged in Rochester with strangling woman with nunchucks, biting her eye
> ...



The notation is still funny to me, especially if its the design which has a really short piece of cord.    Granted a garrot is litrally just a chuck with a longer rope.  (which is probbly why they get lumped in if they ban garrots because how are you going to define it else?)


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## Buka (May 20, 2020)

When I was a brown belt a friend gave me a pair of chucks that he had brought back from overseas. They were smaller than the usual and very fast. I was oh so cool in the mirror every day, showing off and really flying with them. I could hum those suckers, didn't actually know how to use them, but who cared?

I even had the pose down...




 
And made all the appropriate Bruce Lee noises.

One day I conked myself right behind the ear where the skin is thin and tight. Oh, man, I started bleeding like a stuck pig, covered in blood. My shirt looked like I had been in a car accident. My buddy drove me to the ER where they stitched me up. While stitching, the Doc asked me how I cut my head and I told him about the chucks. He didn't know what they were.

Another Doc is walking by and my Doc motions him in. He says, "This is a karate guy, he hit himself in the head with a stick." The second Doc looks behind my ear, laughs and leaves.

Comes back a minute later with yet another Doc, and a nurse. He says the same to them, they laugh and leave.... and even more hospital people come and ask "Is the the Karate guy?"

It was a local hospital...and I was forever known as the Karate Guy Who Hit Himself in the Head With a Stick.

Good times.


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## geezer (May 20, 2020)

Buka said:


> ...The Karate Guy Who Hit Himself in the Head With a Stick. Good times.



 mid 1970s: Hit myself in the back of the head, on the ear, the elbow ...a lot, in the groin... never got covered in blood, but plenty ob deep bruises and bumps, and a few cuts. Yeah, good times. 

For self defense, carry a cane. Or if you _have_ to, an expandable baton, and only if it's legal where you live. OK in Arizona. Most everything is.

...I just carry my sense of humor and watch out where I go. It's worked so far.


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## Buka (May 20, 2020)

geezer said:


> ...I just carry my sense of humor and watch out where I go. It's worked so far.



I'll bet it has!

Good to read you again, bro.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 21, 2020)

lklawson said:


> The chucks?  Hmm... Maybe... I guess...   I know for a fact that there are documented cases (late 19th Century U.S.) where a slungshot (the "monkey fist flail") was used as a garotte.  I read the accounts.  IMS, I think the perp was sent to Singsing.
> 
> If I squint, I can see someone linking the fact that a slungshot has been used as a garotte to a pair of chucks being used.  Heck, I bet if you look around you could probably find someone instructing it right now.  Probably find it in a book.  Maybe even find it in bad 70's Karate/Kung Fu movies.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I'm pretty sure I've seen it a couple of times in those bad movies. And I think many of the laws in the US were a result of those movies.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 21, 2020)

geezer said:


> mid 1970s: Hit myself in the back of the head, on the ear, the elbow ...a lot, in the groin... never got covered in blood, but plenty ob deep bruises and bumps, and a few cuts. Yeah, good times.
> 
> For self defense, carry a cane. Or if you _have_ to, an expandable baton, and only if it's legal where you live. OK in Arizona. Most everything is.
> 
> ...I just carry my sense of humor and watch out where I go. It's worked so far.


I agree wholeheartedly on the cane. Nobody makes them illegal, and they're handy if your own knees are the assailant.

In many states, an expandable baton is less often legal than a gun. You can get a permit to carry the latter, but never the former, which confuses the heck outta me.


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## lklawson (May 21, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> I agree wholeheartedly on the cane. Nobody makes them illegal, and they're handy if your own knees are the assailant.
> 
> In many states, an expandable baton is less often legal than a gun. You can get a permit to carry the latter, but never the former, which confuses the heck outta me.


Some states concealed carry weapons license also covers expanding batons, otherwise-illegal knives, etc.  But not most.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Taipan (Dec 18, 2020)

jaime_lion said:


> So I am not a fan of flexible weapons. Like they look good in routines but I have yet to really see the martial aspect of them. When compared to non-flexible counterparts I don't see any advantage. I am wondering your guys thoughts and if you guys have any stories of people using them in martial applications?



Hello everyone! 

My name is Ryan (Taipando). Its great to join this forum!

Here is a video of a guy demonstrating a few flexible wepons among others.


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## Flying Crane (Dec 18, 2020)

Taipan said:


> Hello everyone!
> 
> My name is Ryan (Taipando). Its great to join this forum!
> 
> Here is a video of a guy demonstrating a few flexible wepons among others.


I don’t know why some people put the stuff on the internet that they do.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 18, 2020)

Not much of that looked usable for any kind of combat. Especially the kicks (I use the term loosely).


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## isshinryuronin (Dec 18, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Not much of that looked usable for any kind of combat. Especially the kicks (I use the term loosely).



Yeah, looks like a backyard "master."  Far too many flaws to even think about listing them.

Were those kicks?  I thought he was just checking his shoe to see if he stepped in some dog poo.  I couldn't watch past the first half of the video - just had dinner.  Agree most all of the weapon moves were useless.   Pray that guy never gets into a knife fight.  Most likely self-"taught."  I hope he didn't pay anybody to teach him this stuff.

Ryan - If you're there, don't equate looking cool with being skilled.  Many here have experience with actual weapon masters and are not impressed by amateurs.  Thanks for your interest and welcome to the site.  Hope you stick around and enjoy the chat - some of it is very informative.


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## Taipan (Dec 19, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> Yeah, looks like a backyard "master."  Far too many flaws to even think about listing them.
> 
> Were those kicks?  I thought he was just checking his shoe to see if he stepped in some dog poo.  I couldn't watch past the first half of the video - just had dinner.  Agree most all of the weapon moves were useless.   Pray that guy never gets into a knife fight.  Most likely self-"taught."  I hope he didn't pay anybody to teach him this stuff.
> 
> Ryan - If you're there, don't equate looking cool with being skilled.  Many here have experience with actual weapon masters and are not impressed by amateurs.  Thanks for your interest and welcome to the site.  Hope you stick around and enjoy the chat - some of it is very informative.



Thanks for the welcome!

I would have to agree that it wasn't very applicable to real life combat. It seems that there are two camps in the martial arts world. There are "martial ARTS" and then there are "MARTIAL arts". I'll have to admitt that even I have jumped around between the two. I like my Combatives to be as practical as possible, with nothing useless in them. My philosophy on it is (to quote Miyamoto Musashi) "Do nothing that is useless".

Then there sre times when I do like to just "look cool", and mess around a little. I think there should be a balance though. You can teach "looking cool" and treat it like it is combat ready.


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## Taipan (Dec 19, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> Yeah, looks like a backyard "master."  Far too many flaws to even think about listing them.
> 
> Were those kicks?  I thought he was just checking his shoe to see if he stepped in some dog poo.  I couldn't watch past the first half of the video - just had dinner.  Agree most all of the weapon moves were useless.   Pray that guy never gets into a knife fight.  Most likely self-"taught."  I hope he didn't pay anybody to teach him this stuff.
> 
> Ryan - If you're there, don't equate looking cool with being skilled.  Many here have experience with actual weapon masters and are not impressed by amateurs.  Thanks for your interest and welcome to the site.  Hope you stick around and enjoy the chat - some of it is very informative.



Thanks for the welcome!

I would have to agree that it wasn't very applicable to real life combat. It seems that there are two camps in the martial arts world. There are "martial ARTS" and then there are "MARTIAL arts". I'll have to admitt that even I have jumped around between the two. I like my Combatives to be as practical as possible, with nothing useless in them. My philosophy on it is (to quote Miyamoto Musashi) "Do nothing that is useless".

Then there sre times when I do like to just "look cool", and mess around a little. I think there should be a balance though. You can teach "looking cool" and treat it like it is combat ready.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 20, 2020)

Taipan said:


> Thanks for the welcome!
> 
> I would have to agree that it wasn't very applicable to real life combat. It seems that there are two camps in the martial arts world. There are "martial ARTS" and then there are "MARTIAL arts". I'll have to admitt that even I have jumped around between the two. I like my Combatives to be as practical as possible, with nothing useless in them. My philosophy on it is (to quote Miyamoto Musashi) "Do nothing that is useless".
> 
> Then there sre times when I do like to just "look cool", and mess around a little. I think there should be a balance though. You can teach "looking cool" and treat it like it is combat ready.


There's a lot that falls between "look cool" and direct fighting application. I think you misunderstand the purpose of a lot of MA practice in the "martial ARTS" (those with more -do focus).


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## Taipan (Dec 20, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> There's a lot that falls between "look cool" and direct fighting application. I think you misunderstand the purpose of a lot of MA practice in the "martial ARTS" (those with more -do focus).



Not at all friend! I think I failed to communicate mu thoughts properly.

I want my training to be as effective as possible. I think there is hardcore combatives and there is flashy nonsense. I also know that there is a lot of things in between. It's also possible to "look cool" and be effective at the same time. 

I guess my main point is that I couldn't care less about looking cool when I'm practing martial arts for real life application. For example I don't care if gouging my thumbs into an attackers eyes looks flashy or not. It just has to work.

Then when it comes to "showing off", lets use nunchaku as an example. There is almost no situation in real combat that an "around the neck toss" or "wrist roll" would be a good idea to perform. It would be idiotic! However, I have nothing against playing around with a pair of Nunchucks. It makes training interesting sometimes!

I hope I have clarified my thought process.


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## lklawson (Dec 22, 2020)

Taipan said:


> Thanks for the welcome!
> 
> I would have to agree that it wasn't very applicable to real life combat. It seems that there are two camps in the martial arts world. There are "martial ARTS" and then there are "MARTIAL arts". I'll have to admitt that even I have jumped around between the two. I like my Combatives to be as practical as possible, with nothing useless in them. My philosophy on it is (to quote Miyamoto Musashi) "Do nothing that is useless".
> 
> Then there sre times when I do like to just "look cool", and mess around a little. I think there should be a balance though. You can teach "looking cool" and treat it like it is combat ready.


I can't say that I agree.  The "art" part of "martial arts" is not about looking cool, though it may not always, in every circumstance, have as much to do with what any specific person may or may not think of as "practical" in their opinion.  But "practical" is a whole different can-o-worms.

And even then, that is based on a dramatic misunderstanding by modern readers of what the term "art" means in context.  The short version is, you (and nearly everyone else) think they know what it means, and you don't.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 22, 2020)

jaime_lion said:


> So I am not a fan of flexible weapons. Like they look good in routines but I have yet to really see the martial aspect of them. When compared to non-flexible counterparts I don't see any advantage. I am wondering your guys thoughts and if you guys have any stories of people using them in martial applications?


 
My thought not realistic





Most people who try to use them probably don't know how to use them.





Real life application? Takes us back to the video above.





In terms of skill level needed.  Flexible weapons require a lot of skills because the weapon tends to "bite the owner'  and driving power to it is not as simple as what the movies make it look like.  If you don't train a flexible weapon then I wouldn't recommend trying to depend on one in a tight spot

Just  realized this is an old post lol.


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