# Question for a Friend.....any ideas?



## ilhe4e12345 (Jun 13, 2011)

ok so a friend of mine asked me something and im not sure how to go about answering him. He was asking me in reference to a website he found online called ikungfu.net and some of their books they offer. He has been studying TKD for many years (i believe 6 or 7) and he has been looking more and more into CMA such as Shaolin 5 animal and Zui Quan (thats because of my interest in drunken fist he wants to know more as well). He doesnt want to start looking around and traveling all over the place until he is sure of what he wants to do and thats when he asked me about a website ikungfu.net and their many books on all different styles of kung fu. 

Him and i both know you cannot learn the martial arts the same way as you could through a real in person teacher or atleast video tape yourself and have a teacher watch and review it for you, but i think he is looking more for books on forms just to see what they are like. He is looking for stuff on the 8 Immortals in particular and found that they offer a book on each form that is pretty detailed and explians the applications of each as well as the theorys behind it and such...but i dont know what to tell him. I personally want to learn the 8 immortal forms just simply because it looks like so much fun and can be realy useful if studied the correct way...i just dont know anything about this site and cant seem to find any reviews, anybody out there have any idea if ikung.net is at all a trusted site? would it be worth picking up a book off there just to see what its all about? i personally wouldnt do it unless i could find a teacher but after reading it the books sound like they offer a lot of information. any suggestions besides "go find a teacher" again he isnt trying to teach himself but wants to see detailed info on the forms and these books seem to offer that...? 

thanksfor any information or response


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## clfsean (Jun 13, 2011)

In a word... nope.

Use Youtube to look around. 

Learning from books as useless is trying to get an idea on things from books. No motion... no body... no connectivity. Plus in books everybody looks good. Video doesn't lie.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 13, 2011)

clfsean said:


> Video doesn't lie.


 
video may not lie, but most people don't know what they are looking at anyways.


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## clfsean (Jun 13, 2011)

Flying Crane said:


> video may not lie, but most people don't know what they are looking at anyways.



There is undeniable truth in that statement.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 13, 2011)

I can't even find a webpage called ikung.net .

But more to the question save time and money 

First look here and read about each CMA listed

Then decide which ones you want to learn more about and then go here or here or here or here or here or here any other reputable online book dealer and buy the books you want

Buy all the books you want and watch all the videos you want and you will still not know about it until you go actually see a class and train it a bit


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## Flying Crane (Jun 13, 2011)

another phenomenon that I've come to realize is that with the printed word and printed publications, a lot of authors seem to talk a good talk and tell a good story and present their work as if they really know what they are talking about.  But in fact a lot of these authors really don't know much and don't have much real skill.  With a good editor and the publishing process, I think it can be easier to throw up a smoke screen.

there may be lots of books out there, but simply reading the book and taking it on face value doesn't mean it's actually worth anything or accurately presents the system or the history of the system.

I'm a big fan of books, I love to read and that includes topics in the martial arts.  But just be aware of the hidden problems in this venue.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 13, 2011)

Flying Crane said:


> another phenomenon that I've come to realize is that with the printed word and printed publications, a lot of authors seem to talk a good talk and tell a good story and present their work as if they really know what they are talking about. But in fact a lot of these authors really don't know much and don't have much real skill. With a good editor and the publishing process, I think it can be easier to throw up a smoke screen.
> 
> there may be lots of books out there, but simply reading the book and taking it on face value doesn't mean it's actually worth anything or accurately presents the system or the history of the system.
> 
> I'm a big fan of books, I love to read and that includes topics in the martial arts. But just be aware of the hidden problems in this venue.


 
There is also a similar problem with videos. Some are good some are bad some are correct some are almost correct and some are wrong.

There are some reputable CMA teachers out of China that sell DVDs. But they tend to change things a little bit in their DVDs so they can tell by sight who they actually taught and who learned from one of their videos.

As to books, I tend to read a lot about CMA but you are right about some of those who write them. This is why I tend to read multiple books from different authors about the same style and also why I generally I go for books by those that are known to be the real deal, example books by Yang Chengfu, Ip Chun, Li Cunyi, etc. I tend to shy away from a lot of newer books on CMA styles


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## ilhe4e12345 (Jun 13, 2011)

im sorry i miss typed the link itis the following:

http://www.ikungfu.net

as for reading and seeing that it looks good on paper, i totally understand and completely agree with that. I have explained to my friend many times that you cant just pick up a book and learn the same as you would a master or sifu its just something he wants to look into. Like i said in the original post, its not that he is going to teach himself but wants to more look into it and see what he can find. The problem is that he is interested in a style that is very hard to find anything non wushu on youtube and the like. I have found some videos and watched movies and while those can be useful (then again i have seen some awful videos...) its just a question...again more for him as i am currently looking into finding a teacher myself for that style. He jsut wants a book on forms to see how they look and read about the applications.....i dont know what to tell him lol


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## clfsean (Jun 13, 2011)

ilhe4e12345 said:


> The problem is that he is interested in a style that is very hard to find anything non wushu on youtube and the like.



Notice this statement from your post. This says TONS about what your friend is interested in. 

Joi Kuen (as I & others have posted on before) is something that's laid over existing skills. There's no verifiable 8 Immortals stand alone style out & about. There are 8 Immortal sets in some styles, plain drunk in some styles, etc... But they are contained in styles. 

If your friend wants to learn something, there's basically two roads. First road is go study modern wushu, get through the basics & compulsories & maybe his teacher would teach it if it fit his body. Second road is study a traditional style that contains joi kuen sets and earn them the right way.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 13, 2011)

ilhe4e12345 said:


> im sorry i miss typed the link itis the following:
> 
> http://www.ikungfu.net
> 
> as for reading and seeing that it looks good on paper, i totally understand and completely agree with that. I have explained to my friend many times that you cant just pick up a book and learn the same as you would a master or sifu its just something he wants to look into. Like i said in the original post, its not that he is going to teach himself but wants to more look into it and see what he can find. The problem is that he is interested in a style that is very hard to find anything non wushu on youtube and the like. I have found some videos and watched movies and while those can be useful (then again i have seen some awful videos...) its just a question...again more for him as i am currently looking into finding a teacher myself for that style. He jsut wants a book on forms to see how they look and read about the applications.....i dont know what to tell him lol


 

It's not even a matter of trying to learn it from a book.  It's a matter of, does that book even present an accurate portrayal of the system, even for informative purposes alone?  If you don't know who the authority on a particular system is, you don't know if you can truly trust the author.

that shouldn't stop you from looking at or reading a book.  Just understand the potential problems with what you might be reading.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 13, 2011)

I looked at the site and....

Based solely on this right here



> Bagua Zhang was created by Hai Chuan Tong, a renowned martial artist of the Qing Dynasty, to train Manchu soldiers to quell Chinese rebels. Bagua Zhang derives its name from Ba Gua, the mystical symbol of the eight states of transformation upon which the Chinese book of divination, the I-Ching is based.


 
I would not buy anything from this page since that paragraph alone shows a rather large lack of knowledge about CMA history

Also JKD is not Sanda. Bajiquan is not secret... shall I go on...

I read through several descriptions of these eBook and I have to tell you I would not buy anything for this site at all since it appears to be mostly wrong and/or based on myth, legend and mysticism

And I cannot find who the authors of any of these things are so&#8230;. I will stick with my original post


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## ilhe4e12345 (Jun 13, 2011)

clfsean said:


> Notice this statement from your post. This says TONS about what your friend is interested in.
> 
> Joi Kuen (as I & others have posted on before) is something that's laid over existing skills. There's no verifiable 8 Immortals stand alone style out & about. There are 8 Immortal sets in some styles, plain drunk in some styles, etc... But they are contained in styles.
> 
> If your friend wants to learn something, there's basically two roads. First road is go study modern wushu, get through the basics & compulsories & maybe his teacher would teach it if it fit his body. Second road is study a traditional style that contains joi kuen sets and earn them the right way.


 

i agree with you here...i have told him many times that he is better off finding a teacher, even if they are 4715719087581 miles away and speaking to them about it. The more i talk to him about it the more he just keeps talking about the 8 immortals forms not the system. Anything i have found about it really only spoke of the 8 immortals as having a form for each of the immortals and i know that there are drunken sets within other CMA's. For example i have been studying 7 Star Mantis for 3 years now and i know there is a drunken form within the system and i have heard of other styles and systems that have drunken forms in them. Im trying to convince him to just keep up with his TKD and maybe look more towards 5 Animal Shaolin (which personally i think is a great CMA) but he just wants to learn the 8 immortal forms...which would be a lot different then his TKD training....


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## ilhe4e12345 (Jun 13, 2011)

Flying Crane said:


> It's not even a matter of trying to learn it from a book. It's a matter of, does that book even present an accurate portrayal of the system, even for informative purposes alone? If you don't know who the authority on a particular system is, you don't know if you can truly trust the author.
> 
> that shouldn't stop you from looking at or reading a book. Just understand the potential problems with what you might be reading.


 

again another statement i fully agree on...if the author is unknown or garbage, then it might not even be the real deal...thats why i asked...i never head of the site so i thought i would bring it to you guys and see what you all know about it....


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## clfsean (Jun 13, 2011)

I just looked at that site... what crap.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 13, 2011)

yeah I looked at the site too.  I cannot recommend this at all, just too many red flags.  There's a statement on the home page, something like, "learn and master kung fu forms easily".  You need look no deeper, just turn around and walk away.  That kind of statement is utter garbage.  It takes the forms out of context of the system, and tries to convince you that learning, even "mastering" them is a simple task.  The term "kung fu" actually means "lots and lots of damn hard work over a long period of time to develop a skill".  See the contradiction here?

This isn't just a catalog of books.  This is a charlatan trying to sell you a learning program thru the venue of ebooks.  Don't waste your time, money, and effort.


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## mograph (Jun 13, 2011)

Regarding books in general, I've finally found that anything with still photos of a moving form is pretty much useless, and videos are ... well ... we won't go there.

I would get a teacher. Then, after some time, books with written words and interviews with old no-nonsense masters can help illuminate your training, but you need to be able to sort out the wheat from the chaff. Nothing should be taken at face value. 

I like _Nei Jia Quan_, edited by O'Brien.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 14, 2011)

Tell him to forget the website and buy this book

Comprehensive Asian Fighting Arts (Bushido--The Way of the Warrior) by Donn F. Draeger and, Robert W. Smith 

It has a great overview of CMA


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## Domino (Jun 17, 2011)

Research the styles he likes best for whatever reason and go straight to the top !

You mentioned the 5 animals.
http://www.shaolin.org/


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