# Basics of Hapkido



## streetlight488 (Mar 31, 2005)

I'm new to this forum and to the Hapkido style in general, but what little I have heard has seemed quite interesting to me.  I would like to more about what the basic techniques are and how they are done, as well as tenents like concentration, speed over strength etc.  Any help you guys can give me would be much appreciated.

 SL


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## glad2bhere (Apr 1, 2005)

Other than this post, what sorts of things have you done to get this information on your own? The topic itself is absolutely huge, so it would help me (to help you) to know what direction you are moving in. For instance, what art do you practice now? What do you know about Hapkido in general? What part would the Hapkido arts play in your life? Are you more interested in traditions or in the physical part of the arts? Need a little help here....

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## relytjj (Apr 1, 2005)

try this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hapkido for a general overview

 You really need to be more specific with your question. glad2bhere is right.


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## streetlight488 (Apr 3, 2005)

It has actually been quite a while since i stopped my study of karate and I had heard about how practical hapkido can be in a physical sense.  I have also heard someone tell me that sometimes it emphasizes speed over strength, which for someone of my body structure would be very helpful.  If any of these things are incorrect please correct them, and also let me know anything else you might be able to tell about this style and its basic techniques or how they compare to karate.  Thank you.  (I hope this cleared up my question a little bit).

 SL


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## glad2bhere (Apr 3, 2005)

"........................

Hapkido ("Way of Coordinated Power") identifies a Korean method of combat utilizing hand strikes, kicks, joint-locks, throws, restraints and chokes. In its most specific use the term Hapkido identifies that art transmitted to Han Jae Ji by Yong Sul Choi between 1953 and 1957. 
In a broader sense, though, the term Hapkido has also come to identify Korean martial arts which incorporate both strikes and grappling according to the three guiding principles of Hapkido, and derive from, or are heavily influenced by, the Japanese martial art Daito-ryu aiki-jujitsu. Into this category fall a wide range of organizations (kwans) including, but not limited to, Mu Sul Kwan, Yon Mu Kwan, Hapki Yu Sool, and Jung Ki Kwan. There are also various federations and associations the most notable of which are the World Kido Federation, the International Hapkido Federation and the Korean Hapkido Federation. 
In its widest usage Hapkido also identifies organizations and arts which seek a greater representation of the Korean Martial tradition. These organizations' heritage may derive in some part from either the teachings of Yong Sul Choi, or his students. However, the way the body is used in these arts may, as much, reflect the strong Chinese and Buddhist heritage of the Korean culture. This category includes the arts of Kuk Sool Won, HanMuDo, Hwarangdo, Han Pul, Mu Yei 24 Ban (Kyong Dang), as well as the martial training practices of the Sun Monasteries. 
The modern art we know as Hapkido is the product of more than 2000 years of martial tradition which can be subdivided into 5 major cultural infusions and many lesser cultural influences. The first of these are the ancient tribal techniques (Sado Mu Sool) which are thought to have incorporated combat techniques best accomplished from horseback and would have included archery, lance, stone sword and knife as well as the brand of wrestling common to across most of central Asia. Practiced by the migrating tribes of the steppes of northeastern Asia, these martial skills formed the foundation for Korean martial tradition. 
The Second and Third Infusions to Hapkido were the introduction of Buddhist and Confucian belief systems to Korean culture as well as the attendant martial and administrative traditions from  China during the 4th and 5th century. 		
The introduction of Buddhist beliefs is reflected in the establishment of various codes  which were established to guide the warriors' efforts in meeting his responsibilities to his community and country. Buddhist tradition pressed an accomplished warrior to submit to a code based on patriotism (Ch'ung), filial piety, (Hyo), fraternity (Shin) Justice (Yong) and Benevolence (Im). In this way the role of Buddhist thought for the Korean warrior was not unlike that of the Christian church in Western Europe with the development of Chivalry. From a fighting sense the addition of a code to the warriors training helped to dissuade the warrior from misusing his skill by abusing members of his family and community.
The Confucian system, for its part, advocated a reverence for governmental authority and supported this through a hierarchy of levels, examinations, and offices. Such a strict hierarchical system readily lent itself to affirming the rigid class system comprised of the aristocracy, bureaucracy, farmers and slaves as well as the supremacy of the king. In a manner of speaking, then, if Buddhism indicated to the warrior what he was not to do and whom he was not to act against, Confucianism indicated the proper focus for the warriors skills in terms of government and superior authority.  
In addition to their respective religious and administrative influences, Buddhism and Confucianism were also avenues for the introduction of many  cultural and martial traditions from the Chinese culture. Among these contributions are varieties of weapons and martial skills, strategies, tactics and order of battle, history, science, medicine and literature. These twin forces guided and supported Korean martial tradition but also contributed to its decline as well. As much as one might think well of the influence of the Buddhist faith, its power and influence in the Korean government soon was seen as a threat to the kings'  ruling authority. The decline of the influence of Buddhism left an opportunity for Confucianism to make its influence felt. 
With steady support from various factions throughout the Yi dynasty (1390 to 1910) military tradition in Korean was seen as little more than a necessary evil which was continually minimized at every turn. Even those occasions which required a military defense such as the Japanese Invasion of 1592 by Toyotomi was not enough to stop the decline. The occupation by the Japanese in 1910 finally brought the Yi dynasty to an end.
Initially more bureaucratic, the Japanese occupation experienced steadily growing resistance by the Korean people until harsh repressive measures were instituted in the 1930-s by the Japanese that outlawed nearly the whole of Korean culture and demanded the adoption of Japanese cultural counterparts. Japanese nationals were brought to Korea to dominate the agricultural and industrial base of that country and bringing with them such martial art traditions as Judo, jujitsu, Karate, Aikido, Kendo and Kyudo. Korean nationals were relocated to Japan to service the needs of the Japanese industry, farming and domestic service. The Fourth Infusion to the Korean martial tradition is best represented in the personal experiences of Yong Sul Choi whose teachings subsequently set the foundation for much of modern Hapkido.
At the age of 8, Choi was reportedly taken to Japan from Korea, later abandoned and subsequently taken into the household of Sokaku Takeda, teacher of Daito-ryu Aiki-jujitsu. Choi states that he remained in Takedas' employ for some thirty years, before being repatriated to Korea at the end of the Second World War. To date, no documentation has been found to support Choi's statements regarding either his residence with the Takeda family, or his instruction in the art of Daito-ryu. However, it remains that Choi along with a very limited number of other Korean nationals such as Mok Jang In, and General Hong Hi Choi returned to Korea to add the martial skills they had experienced in Japan to those arts of the Korean culture as had survived, or had been introduced from Japan by the occupation. 
In 1948 Choi began teaching his art, yu sool, to Bok-sub Suh a Yudo black belt and president of a brewery. The name "yu sool" itself suggests that the arts' techniques included joint locks and throws. However, following an incident in 1954 in which Choi's student Suh used a sidekick in an altercation, the name was changed to "yu kwon sool", indicating that the art utilized kicks and punches as well. As a student Han Jae Ji had begun to train with Choi in 1953. Working with the head instructor of the school, Woo-woong Kim, Ji had begun to organize the kicking repertoire that would be identified with yu kwon sool. This introduction of various kicking techniques by Won-woong Kim and Han Jae Ji to the yu sool curriculum constitutes the Fifth and latest infusion of techniques. As with the martial sport of TaeKwonDo, the source for this kicking material was the historic national past-time of taek kyon and su bahk both kicking arts of long standing in the Korean culture.  
On beginning his own school in 1957 as a 3rd degree Black Belt, Ji is attributed with changing the name of the art to its present form, "hapki do" from "hapki yu sool." In this way, Ji is thought to have emphasized Hapkido as a "do" or "way of living" rather than merely a collection of techniques ("sool"). In this way, whatever principals may be examined on a physical plane such as motion, balance, leverage, timing and focus may also be regarded on an intellectual, emotional and spiritual plane as well. The result is that the art of Hapkido is as much a method of character development as a martial endeavor. 
Many Hapkido practitioners can trace their instruction back to Ji, or to Yong Sul Choi through Ji. Among the most notable personalities who have trained with Choi directly, or with Choi through Ji are Joo Bang Lee (HwaRangDo), Jae-nam Myung  (International Hapkido Federation), Kwang Sik Myung (World Hapkido Federation), and Bong Soo Han (International Hapkido Federation). The members and cadre that descend from these lines support to Ji's reputation as the "father of modern Hapkido." There are also large networks of contemporaries to Ji who have sought to introduce innovation to the Hapkido teaching each in their own way. These include In Hyuk Suh (Kuk Sool Won), Kwan-wha Won (Moo Sool Kwan) and Hyun Su Lim (Jung Ki Kwan). 
In examining Daito-ryu, Hapkido and Aikido, another Daito ryu derivation,  it is not surprising that one is able identify a number of similarities. All three arts support practice in both unarmed techniques as well as the use of weapons. Though curriculums vary from organization to organization, all three arts hold to the position that techniques remain biomechanically the same whether a weapon is incorporated into the movements or not. 
The weapons themselves continue to reflect a certain consistency in biomechanics, despite cultural variations. The Japanese iron fan or iron truncheon (jutte) is represented in Korean by the short stick, or dan bong. The Korean cane  approximates the Japanese jo, or stick.. Sword, knife and staff techniques are often comparable in either Japanese or Korean culture though the Korean biomechanics more often bespeak their Chinese influences in circular rather than linear motion. To a lesser degree Hapkido practitioners continue to incorporate rope or belt techniques as well as the larger Chinese fans on occasion
A second connection among Daito-ryu aiki-jujitsu, Hapkido and Aikido are their operation under of the same three principles whether on the physical, intellectual, emotional or spiritual plane. These are the Water Principle, Point and Circle Principle and Economy of Energy Principle. 
The Water Principle bespeaks adaptation to circumstances and a readiness to adjust an action or response with ease. Sometimes characterized as "tenacity" or "relentless" for the penetrating qualities of the liquid, the Water Principle is better represented by the manner in which water adapts to the shape of the container that holds it. In this way the Hapkido practitioner accepts whatever is given them to work with and makes the most of it. 
The Point and Circle Principle acknowledges that "all things are a cycle" and as such can be much easier to understand in cause and effect. A punch, thrown, does not remain extended, but is "recycled" to become perhaps a block, another strike or a grab. The same can be said for a kick, or a throw, perhaps walking, eatingin fact any activity. Actions occur and are recycled to become other actions as thoughts recycle to become other thoughts. In combat application, the interception and management of an attack is open to a greater number of options along the track of an arc rather than a straight line. An appreciation of the cyclical nature of events also allows for anticipation according to a variety of options and an execution of a particular option in a tangential rather than confrontive manner. 
The Economy of Motion Principle encourages the practitioner to identify the most efficient, least wasteful way of accomplishing ones' goals, and admonishes the student to avoid "working harder than ones' opponent" In this way, whatever is learned is under constant pressure to be done more accurately, efficiently and effectively. In this way a Hapkido practitioner learns to "work smarter, not harder" in dealing with conflicts.  
A third connection among Daito-ryu, Hapkido and Aikido is their reliance on a subtle hierarchy of sophistication which guides the practitioner to identify increasing levels of efficiency and effectiveness in their arts. For the Japanese arts the first level of expertise is identified as gentle technique (ju jitsu) which is approximated as 'soft technique" (yu sool) in the Korean tradition. Essentially an art based on strength; leverage and speed this level of expertise often includes a degree of pain compliance for the successful execution of the technique. Though the least sophisticated of the three levels, this skill level is perhaps the most widely exhibited among Hapkido practitioners and contributes to its reputation as a no-nonsense form of self-defense. 
The second level of sophistication is identified in the Daito-ryu tradition as aiki-jujitsu or "hapki yu sool" in the Korean tradition. Aikido for its part speaks of "blending" with ones' partner. All three states indicate the ability to use the nature of the attackers' own physical structure against them. Disrupting the attackers' foundation, balance. direction, timing or focus allows for the defender to optimize his assets in a confrontation with an individual of greater size or ability. Well-known among Aikido and Daito-ryu practitioners, this level is less well-known in the Hapkido community with the exception perhaps of the practitioners in Korea itself. 
The highest level of expertise is designated "aiki-jitsu" (lit: "spirit techniques") and is the subject of much debate within both the Aikido and Daito-ryu aiki-jujitsu community. This level of training allows the practitioner to exploit the biomechanical responses of the attackers' own body against him such as "conditioned responses," and "reflexes". In such cases the defender, then, is able not only to engage the enemy, unbalance them and use their strength against them, but incorporate the volition of the partners' own action in defeating the attack as well. Such practices are often attributed to cosmic forces loosely termed Ki (energy), but the fact remains that only sound training practices done over and over again seem to consistently produce this sort of magic. 
	The organization of a typical Hapkido school reflects many of the accepted organizational practices common to most martial arts in both Korea and Japan. A director (kwang jang ) attends to the managing affairs of the school while an instructor (sabum) oversees regular instruction. Nearly all Hapkido organizations have adopted a hierarchy of ascending student (guep) ranks numbering ten through one and usually assign a belt color to indicate  rank.  Individuals committed to continued study, following completion of the student ranks, are assigned a rank of one through seven indicating various levels of competence and designated by a black belt. Ranks eight, nine and ten are essentially administrative positions. Consistent with the use of a Confucian educational model, criteria for advancement, testing policies, certification and licensure vary greatly from organization to organization and are regularly a source of negotiation and discussion in the Hapkido community regarding significance and relative merit. 
	The art itself is an extraordinary inter-relationship among kicks, strikes, throws, joint-locks, chokes and projections all of which abide by the three principles of Hapkido. Though occasionally practitioners of the art will participate in competitions, the art of Hapkido, itself is not competitive. It is easy to see that for an art whose intent is to stop the fight, asking a practitioner to participate in a competition designed to extend a confrontation for even a few rounds does not make a lot of sense. Instead, Hapkido practitioners honor the Korean martial tradition that asks the warrior to serve his country, his family and his community by only coming out of the best part of himself to further the good of everyone. 

Bibliography - 

Kim, S.H  (2000) The Comprehensive Illustrated Manual of Martial arts of Ancient Korea, 
Turtle Press, Hartford, CT.

Kimm, H.Y. (1991) Hapkido; Hapkido II; Philosophy of Masters;
  Andrew Jackson College Press, Baton Rouge, La.

Lee, J.B. (1979) The Ancient Martial Art of HwaRangDo (Vol. 1-3), 
          Ohara Publications, Burbank, Ca.

Lee, K.B. (1984) A New History of Korea, Harvard University Press, Cambridge, Ma.

Lee, P.H. (1993) Sources of Korean Civilization  Vol. 1&2, Columbia University Press, N.Y.

Myung, K.S. (1982) Hapkido  Ancient Art of Masters, World Hapkido Federation, Seoul, Korea 

Omiya, S  (1992) The Hidden Roots of Aikido, Kodansha International Ltd., Tokyo, Japan

Suh, I.H. (1987) Kuk Sool

Yang, J.M. (1992) Analysis of Shaolin Chin Na, YMAA Publication Center, Jamaica Plains, Ma.

.............................."

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## iron_ox (Apr 3, 2005)

Hello all,

The previous post contains several errors.  Please refer to previous threads for correct details.


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## Master Todd Miller (Apr 4, 2005)

_A second connection among Daito-ryu aiki-jujitsu, Hapkido and Aikido are their operation under of the same three principles whether on the physical, intellectual, emotional or spiritual plane. These are the Water Principle, Point and Circle Principle and Economy of Energy Principle. _ 

The Korean terms for the three principles are:

*Wha* - Harmony

*Won* - Circle or complete

*Yu* - Dynamic or flowing

The Founder taught these three principles in this order.


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## glad2bhere (Apr 4, 2005)

Actually, if we come right down to it, we don't know that Choi Yong Sul, himself, taught these principles. 

We know that some of Choi's students incorporated these principles into their teachings just the same as some of Takeda Sokakus' students incorporated these principles into THEIR teachings. The assumption is made that Takeda taught these principles as part and parcel of his instruction but there is no actual evidence that this is true. There is a very strong possibility that later practitioners of both Hapkido and Aikido may have reflected on the strength of these principles and atributed their origins to their teachers. If this is true than a likely pathway for this would have been across second-generation instructors such as Ueyshiba in Aikido and Myong Jae Nam in Hapkido. Ueyshiba was skilled and licensed in other traditions and there was considerable exchange of information across the Eastern Sea between factions of Myong in Korea and the Aikido community in Japan. 

I think that it is also very important to remember that while these principles certainly bind together the material of the Hapkido arts very neatly, and while they can be applicable to a range of arts in the Orient, the application argueably derives from the "aiki"  rather than the "yawara" side of the arts. Had Choi actually transmitted or originated these principles one would naturally expected these principles to be more closely attuned to the "yawara" nature of Hapkido.  FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## iron_ox (Apr 4, 2005)

Master Todd Miller said:
			
		

> _A second connection among Daito-ryu aiki-jujitsu, Hapkido and Aikido are their operation under of the same three principles whether on the physical, intellectual, emotional or spiritual plane. These are the Water Principle, Point and Circle Principle and Economy of Energy Principle. _
> 
> The Korean terms for the three principles are:
> 
> ...



Hello all,

Master Miller, You are ABSOLUTELY correct.  Of *course* these are the cornerstones of Hapkido, we *know* that Dojuinim Choi taught these from his earliest student, Master Suh, Bok Sub throught the three men whom he made 9th dans, Dojunim Chang, Chin Il, Grandmaster Lim Hyun Soo, and Grandmaster Kim, Yun Sang.

In fact, Dojunim Choi's curriculum stayed remarkably consistant throught his lifetime.  This is again evidenced through his early students and later students who teach virtually the same techniques in the same order.

Good post Master Miller, nice to bring the focus back where it should be; on the teachings of the man that founded Hapkido, Dojunim Choi, Yong Sul.


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## glad2bhere (Apr 4, 2005)

And, of course, this brings us right back to the original difference that underpins many of these discussions--- that of the difference between claims and the faith one puts in those claims as compared to facts as documented. I think this is an excellent example of the principle. 

Chang Chin Il may well teach this material. And I may attend his class and experience his teachings. He may well say that he was taught these principles by Choi. I can say that I KNOW Chang teaches these bits because I have experienced it.  I have not experienced Choi teaching Chang so I must accept that on faith until I can find documentation. 

There is nothing wrong with acting on faith. People do it all the time. An alternative path is to ask for substantiation, evidence and so forth. I believe the term used today is "smoking gun". Absent that people are given the choice of Faith versus Knowledge. Not an altogether bad choice, that. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## American HKD (Apr 4, 2005)

Greetings

Interesting so far, but in this months TKD times GM Lim says, as interveiwed by Todd Miller. "Choi did'nt say anything in theory" and the interveiw implies he only taught technique and how the techs. work.


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## glad2bhere (Apr 4, 2005)

In fairness this would not be the first time that a teacher shared information one way, and the student in organizing material to teach in his own right stumbles across a teaching model that does a little better way of representing how things might fit together. To validate that "new" model the student might ascribe it to HIS teacher rather than attempt to suffer through criticism for exceeding his place in the hierarchy. Afterall how many times do people represent something to the world as a "pure" art knowing full-well that they have added this or that, and when questioned invoke their teacher as the person who made this modification rather than themselves, yes? FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Master Todd Miller (Apr 4, 2005)

_Interesting so far, but in this months TKD times GM Lim says, as interveiwed by Todd Miller. "Choi did'nt say anything in theory" and the interveiw implies he only taught technique and how the techs. work._

GM Lim has stated that DJN Choi taught three principles in Hapkido/Hapki Yu sool, *Wha* - Harmony, *Won* - Circle or completeness, *Yu* - Dynamic or flowing.

Stuart: You misunderstood what GM Lim was saying.

Take care,


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## Master Todd Miller (Apr 4, 2005)

Stuart,

The quote that you used was taken out of context because the part you quoted was about DJN Choi's philosophy not teaching theory of technique.


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## Hollywood1340 (Apr 4, 2005)

iron_ox said:
			
		

> Hello all,
> 
> The previous post contains several errors. Please refer to previous threads for correct details.


And they would be....and could be found...where?


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## iron_ox (Apr 5, 2005)

Hollywood1340 said:
			
		

> And they would be....and could be found...where?



Hello James,

This will take some time, so I will write it this afternoon and get it to the net tonight.


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## glad2bhere (Apr 5, 2005)

"......GM Lim has stated that DJN Choi taught three principles in Hapkido/Hapki Yu sool, Wha - Harmony, Won - Circle or completeness, Yu - Dynamic or flowing......" 

Of course, I have no way of know "what" GM Lim may or may not have said.  I have no idea of what he may or may not have learned from Choi Yong Sul. There are, however, some interesting patterns that come up as one reviews the literature. 

On the DRAJJ side there is a book by the current leader of the DR AIKI-BUDO  which is probably the most direct line of the Takeda tradition coming as it does through Takedas' son to Kondo.  In his book Kondo identifies 7 principles for the execution of DRAJJ. Oddly, these principles have quite a bit to do with Ju-jutsu and practically nothing to do with Aikido. I have sought to identify any theoretical principles as taught by Takeda Sokaku and have not been able to locate any. Perhaps there were some, I don't know. All I am saying is I can't find any. Nor can I find any in Yanagi-Ryu, Shorinji-ryu Kempo, Hakko-Ryu or Shorinji Kempo or ANY of the other DRAJJ spin-offs. I am not saying that they don't exist just that in reviewing the literature for the last 50 years or so I have found nothing written which is curious considering how dilligent these respective arts have been about telling their story otherwise.  

Then one looks at Aikido as presented by Ueyshibas' Son, Kisshumaru, by Saito and by Ratti and there are varied representations of the same three Principles albeit tweaked slightly in different directions. Earlier practiioners such as Yamada and Tohei mention the role of "Ki" in execution. But the three principles model for pedagogy seems to come later as a fullfillment of Ueyshibas experience with the Omote Religion. At least each piece of literature makes mention of them. I can't lay my hands on Shioda at the moment but it would be interesting to know what his take on this might have been. Not too surprising since the role of "Ki" as a martial premise only found expression in the late 1800-s of Shinto Japan and was virtually un-mentioned in materials before then, nor do I find mention of "Ki" in Kondo's book nor in any of five or six other books I have on "yawara" either in English or in Japanese. Certainly it crops up in the terms of Oriental medicine, but not as a martial premise. 

In fact, as I have mentioned before the whole idea of teaching Hapkido as a defensive (Ai-Ki) art as opposed to a more pro-active or pre-emptive (Ki-Ai) art is at odds with Choi's own report. Choi himself is reported to have stated quite clearly that he taught "yawara" which is actually the opposite of "ai-ki". I can't shake the feeling that we are looking at a very fundamental combat art presented by a teacher which was then retrofitted with later pedagogy to separate it from its checkered past and more combative roots. FWIW. 

Drawing a conclusion, I would say this is another case where individuals found an interesting method of communicating information and have attributed it to a teacher to give it greater authority. My guess is that this model has worked its way into Hapkido traditions sometime between 1947 when Choi Yong Sul started teaching, and 1976 when GM Myung first postulated the Principles in HAPKIDO ART OF MASTERS. That would be about a 30 year period during which the influence of Aikido might have spilled into the Hapkido experience. But don't feel too bad.  There are a number of things, like hyung, that have been added and Hapkido has not suffered because of it. Lets just quit pretending that Choi taught all of what we have today from his early start in the 1940-s. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Mike-IHF (Apr 5, 2005)

Bruce,


I will have to agree with you on this. I have always thought there might be more of a "Ai ki", or maybe even Aikido influence in Hapkido. After looking at DRAJJ, from Kondo's teaching which is supposedly the closest link to what Takeda taught. It definetely more "Ki Ai" than "Ai Ki" . Especially considering the reference of the 3 principles taught by Choi. These 3 principles obviously come from an Aiki source, not DRAJJ. Especially WHA, an Won. Let's take Won for example. Circle, not just half circle from what I have seen at some Hapkido schools, but (full circle wholeness). Which is definetely a Aiki concept. yes DRAJJ, uses full circle techniques, but I believe they use alot more entering techniques, or Ki Ai than what I would consider to be full circle wholeness. What I'm wondering is this. If Choi taught these principles, which looks to me are more of Aiki basis. Where would this influence have come from in Choi's teaching?


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## American HKD (Apr 5, 2005)

Master Todd Miller said:
			
		

> Stuart,
> 
> The quote that you used was taken out of context because the part you quoted was about DJN Choi's philosophy not teaching theory of technique.


I see!


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## American HKD (Apr 5, 2005)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> "......GM Lim has stated that DJN Choi taught three principles in Hapkido/Hapki Yu sool, Wha - Harmony, Won - Circle or completeness, Yu - Dynamic or flowing......"
> 
> Of course, I have no way of know "what" GM Lim may or may not have said. I have no idea of what he may or may not have learned from Choi Yong Sul. There are, however, some interesting patterns that come up as one reviews the literature.
> 
> ...


I may agree to a large extent, even training with Doju Ji his techs are not that cirular compared to Aikido or some other Kwans of HKD, they are very straight foward. 

However in the Daito Ryu book "Hidden roots of Aikido" you can see many of Hapkido tech & priciples. Also the book describes 3 levels of Aiki-Jutsu the lowest (if you will) being a jujutsu system, then Aiki-Jujutsu and finally Aiki-No-jujutsu. 

Maybe the type of HKD we train in the level of jujutsu with some Aiki-jujutsu.

I've not really seen any high level display of Aiki No Jujutsu from any Hapkido Masters. This realm of tech is closer to Aikido then HKD IMO



I hope that made sense?


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## glad2bhere (Apr 5, 2005)

Dear Mike: 

Welcome to "Fantasyland"!! 

In my book this is where the real fun --- and work start. Lets take two possibilities. 

Poss 1. Choi actually taught this material. 

Not completely outside the realm of possibility. He might not have been exposed to it through Takeda, in fact the evidence leans against his actually having been taught by Takeda. However, Japanese History suggests that there were a lot of people who crossed paths with Takeda and the other people with whom Takeda crossed paths. I bet there was a whole lot of comparing notes. Next to Takeda himself, Ueyshiba seems to have been the next most powerful personality. By what I have read Ueyshiba also had standing in other arts like Takeda and sought to propagate his beliefs like Takeda. Unlike Takeda who died in 1943, Ueyshiba lived well past WW II and to see that unless he "mellowed" a bit in his teachings that he might be "reminded" of his teaching days at the Nakano Spy School. Lets face it, his teaching after the war was very different than what he taught before and during. Just compare Shiodas' writing with Saotome's practice sometime!

Poss 2: Choi's students introduce material. 

Very real possibility. Look at all the material that has been added. Ji and Kim added lots of kicking and Myung added forms and a range of traditional weapons. In Hyuk Suh and Joo Bang Lee both "Sino-sized" Hapkido arts and HanPul is just off by itself. Myung Jae Nam was hob-nobbing with the Japanese Aikido community and thats not to count the folks who had brought Aikido to Korea earlier during the Occupation. Remember, one of the problems with Hapkido as a label according to Ji (so tradition tells us) is that it read just like Aikido and people were confusing the two. Sounds like one corrupting the other to me! From all that I have read and heard Choi's original material was pretty brutal, but then, so was Ueyshibas'. I'll bet someone came along and told Choi to "lighten-up" or they would never make Hapkido a commercial success. When people got tired of arguing with him about it they probably broke-off and started their own shows. The first group probably broke-up because the players couldn't figure how to divide-up the power, control and prestige. Who knows?  FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## shesulsa (Apr 8, 2005)

*Moderator Note:

  The ongoing discussion on Hapkido origins has been split off of from this thread since it is completely off topic from the original post - again.

  For the record, any more discussions that degrade into this diatribe will be split off from future infractions to this thread.

  Gentlemen, stay on topic.

  Georgia Ketchmark
  MartialTalk
  Sr. Moderator*


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## Hollywood1340 (Apr 12, 2005)

Um, I think I've been pretty clear on where you can find your answers. As I see it it's pretty black and white and put out there. But if you'd like the rhetoric, here it is. CHKD is best described as pure Honsinsul (Sorry if I spelled that wrong). I heavily disagree with the "Combat" name as Zac as pointed out (I'm replying a few messages back as people are replying faster then I can reply) We don't kick high, we are less movement oriented, and there are only limted TRUE throws, however you can easily with many of our techs by simply extending them. We say we are a modern self defense system and I believe that to be the case. One word the cames up in common practice is "Camera Friendly", and no not the movie kind. The survellience kind. Our purpose it to nulify attack, and do so in a way that is "OK" In todays world of lawyers and friviolous lawsuits. I think for security professionals, law enforcement and the like it's a great way to get INTRODUCED to what HKD can have to offer. And a method of doing that is agreeable and effective. 
The instructor is the make or break in the system. IF provided with someone who KNOWS what they are doing, and arn't afraid to show you that yes, it's good to have this tech but if you change it modify it, extend it, it'll work better I believe you'll have a good base. IF you have somebody who puts the tape in and walks off, tests on on the material AS written/shown, without any imput, then yes, you're not getting anything from the system. The "plug-ins" are not geared to make someone ready for MMA, rank them a black belt in BJJ, or allow them to stand their own against the dog brothers. They are ways to add to your arsenal, and do so in a time effective (I hate saying that) manner.


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## American HKD (Apr 12, 2005)

Hollywood1340 said:
			
		

> Um, I think I've been pretty clear on where you can find your answers. As I see it it's pretty black and white and put out there. But if you'd like the rhetoric, here it is. CHKD is best described as pure Honsinsul (Sorry if I spelled that wrong). I heavily disagree with the "Combat" name as Zac as pointed out (I'm replying a few messages back as people are replying faster then I can reply) We don't kick high, we are less movement oriented, and there are only limted TRUE throws, however you can easily with many of our techs by simply extending them. We say we are a modern self defense system and I believe that to be the case. One word the cames up in common practice is "Camera Friendly", and no not the movie kind. The survellience kind. Our purpose it to nulify attack, and do so in a way that is "OK" In todays world of lawyers and friviolous lawsuits. I think for security professionals, law enforcement and the like it's a great way to get INTRODUCED to what HKD can have to offer. And a method of doing that is agreeable and effective.
> The instructor is the make or break in the system. IF provided with someone who KNOWS what they are doing, and arn't afraid to show you that yes, it's good to have this tech but if you change it modify it, extend it, it'll work better I believe you'll have a good base. IF you have somebody who puts the tape in and walks off, tests on on the material AS written/shown, without any imput, then yes, you're not getting anything from the system. The "plug-ins" are not geared to make someone ready for MMA, rank them a black belt in BJJ, or allow them to stand their own against the dog brothers. They are ways to add to your arsenal, and do so in a time effective (I hate saying that) manner.


Thank You I believe where getting somewhere.

So when you say "modern" you mean in the sense of controling someone or not hurting them? Or modern because there's no high kicks.

The add on is what I find interesting are they taught as part of your curriculum? If so how deep is each instr. knowledge on the individual arts are they a blue belt in BJJ or an Asst Guru in Kali or just someone with some elementry level of knowledge in the add on arts?

How do you get training on the adds on?


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## Hollywood1340 (Apr 12, 2005)

American HKD said:
			
		

> Thank You I believe where getting somewhere.
> 
> So when you say "modern" you mean in the sense of controling someone or not hurting them? Or modern because there's no high kicks.
> 
> ...



Well how it is supposed to go as I understand is you watch the tape and boom you're "taught" I've played around with the CHKD trapping stuff and it's not bad. As for my stick work, my inst. has had previous Balintawak (Sp) training so it's more that then CHKD stuff. And the ground work has been taught since before we were affiliated with the ICHF.


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## iron_ox (Apr 13, 2005)

American HKD said:
			
		

> What was your expirience at Lim's seminar???



Hello Stuart,

I was the host of Grandmaster Lim's Seminar here in Chicago last year, and would like to offer my opinion on the material and how it was covered.

I have been to a fair number of seminars over the years - lots of different stuff from different instructors - which is why I really don't attend seminars anymore.  I think most people forget what a seminar is for - a brief (generally very brief) look into the training and technique taught by a particular group or individual.  Because the vast majority of the 50+ participants were my students - and colored belts, I wanted to ensure that they actually got something out of the seminar - so I could have not been more pleased that Grandmaster Lim took the lower ranks to one end of the room and trained just them, alone for close to an hour - they still talk about their experiences to this day.

That to me is what a seminar is for.  Upon Grandmastrer Lim's return to Chicago, these strudents will jump at the chance to train with him again.  The seminar was well conducted, with good warm ups and cool downs.  We also got a great short lecture on the priciples of Wha, Won, Yew and how Dojunim Choi used to describe and detail them - really great stuff.

This seminar for me was probably the best laid out and excecuted of any I had been to - no time spent showing us the "how great I am section" (where the instructor spends a huge amount of time just doing technique to boost his ego), the lower ranks were engaged and given full participatory roles (including a chance to individually demonstrate what they had been working on for Grandmaster Lim), the upper ranks were taught individuallized techniques - seperate from what the lower ranks were doing - and finally EVERYONE got a chance to interact one on one with Grandmaster Lim - the lowere ranks even got a chance to grab him and get thrown around a bit (they stilll rave about that too).  

Stuart, you will have a great time.  It is also worth noting that Grandmaster Lim spent a considerable time talking to us after the seminar about whatever questions we had - so save any pressing questions for the end, it's not worth trying to engage in question time while the semionar is in session (about unrealted topics) - but you have been to a few seminars and know how rude that can be, I know.

Just remember that the beauty of the seminar is being able to reinforce the learning with member of the same organization that are available after the seminar is over.  Luckily, Grandmaster Lim ha a great cadre of instructors here in America that can provide that support.

Stuart, feel free to ask any other questions of me about this seminar you might have.


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## American HKD (Apr 13, 2005)

iron_ox said:
			
		

> Hello Stuart,
> 
> I was the host of Grandmaster Lim's Seminar here in Chicago last year, and would like to offer my opinion on the material and how it was covered.
> 
> ...


Dear Kevin

Thanks for your response.

When things are put in context it usually helps, I'm sure Bruce was looking for more advanced training and didn't get it so I aslo see his point.

That's why I alway try to find out what the seminars will cover first, If it's basics I may not be interested esspecially if it's in Ji's line of HKD.

However if it's Jung Ki Kwan I would like very much to see the basics.


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## American HKD (Apr 13, 2005)

Hollywood1340 said:
			
		

> Well how it is supposed to go as I understand is you watch the tape and boom you're "taught" I've played around with the CHKD trapping stuff and it's not bad. As for my stick work, my inst. has had previous Balintawak (Sp) training so it's more that then CHKD stuff. And the ground work has been taught since before we were affiliated with the ICHF.


Dear James,

Your posts are still a little hard to follow because your answers aren't following my questions exactly, so bare with me.

1. You're actually supposed to learn CH from tapes?  

2. How does rank testing work?


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## zac_duncan (Apr 13, 2005)

> Um, I think I've been pretty clear on where you can find your answers.


Sorry Hollywood, I don't mean to be obstinate, but it's not clear to me where to get these answers. I am a little dumb, so please, just forgive me. Also, even if I could get it written up somewhere, I'd really like to hear from someone with some experience in the system. It seems from your rank that you have several years in the system and I like get people's personal experiences.


When you say that CHKD executes techs faster than THKD, I'm curious. So if you would, please describe to me how a technique might vary between CHKD and THKD. I know it's hard to describe techniques on the web, but I am really interested. 


Also, please don't take this as anything other than my intellectual curiousity. 

Thanks,
-zac


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## Hollywood1340 (Apr 13, 2005)

American HKD said:
			
		

> Dear James,
> 
> Your posts are still a little hard to follow because your answers aren't following my questions exactly, so bare with me.
> 
> ...



In all truth, tapes complement an actual instructor. Rank testing for me anyway works like in any other art. I demo my techs, fight, and break in front of a panel of black belts.


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## iron_ox (Apr 13, 2005)

American HKD said:
			
		

> Dear Kevin
> 
> Thanks for your response.
> 
> ...



Hello Stuart,

This might be the meat of another thread, but seminars (eg what to expect at a seminar) - as you know - are generally for introductory material unless that is stated beforehand.  I am sure that when you train at some seminar style stuff with Ji, Han Jae, you pretty much know what to expect because you train with him often.

When people attend seminars, designed for "everyone" then they will be mainly "lower level" techniques - but as I said, there was plenty for the upper ranks to do with Grandmaster Lim. Again, you will not only enjoy the seminar but the other instructors of the Jung Ki Kwan, who are both freindly and informative.  I can't speak for what others may "expect" from a seminar - for some it is unique enough to stay until the end.


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## Mithios (Apr 13, 2005)

I do T.H. but have been working out at a C.H. school for a couple of years now, and i can say that some of the tehniques in C.H. are faster( less movement) than T.H. Notice i said faster not better!! The end product is the same center lock, chicken wing, s-lock etc. that most Hapkido people do, just with less body movement, and more use of distractions.

Take a basic beginner arm bar from a same side wrist grab, Their right hand grabing your left wrist. in T.H. we step with the left foot pivot to the right, moving our right wrist and arm at the same time to distract and unbalance the attacker, then a quick movement back to the left grabing their hand with your right, bringing your left hand on the out side of their arm and breaking their grip( and there thumb) place your live hand just above their elbow and roll their arm over maintaining your grip with your right hand, on their right hand. Then take em down.

In C.H., when their right hand grabs your left wrist you don't do the unbalancing movement to the right, but do a low line distraction kick to their knee, and go straight to grabing their hand and going to the outside of their arm, breaking their grip and thumb. etc. the rest is the same movement.

I am better at doing than writing, so i hope you guy's can understand it from the way i wrote it down. Make any sense ???

Mithios


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## zac_duncan (Apr 13, 2005)

Hi Mithios, I don't quite see what you mean, but being that we both live in St. Louis and practice HKD, perhps we could meet and you could "do" rather than "say"? I'm very curious about the differences between CHKD and HKD. I also love to get together with people and play. 

PM me if you're interested. 

Cheers
-zac


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## American HKD (Apr 13, 2005)

Mithios said:
			
		

> I do T.H. but have been working out at a C.H. school for a couple of years now, and i can say that some of the tehniques in C.H. are faster( less movement) than T.H. Notice i said faster not better!! The end product is the same center lock, chicken wing, s-lock etc. that most Hapkido people do, just with less body movement, and more use of distractions.
> 
> Take a basic beginner arm bar from a same side wrist grab, Their right hand grabing your left wrist. in T.H. we step with the left foot pivot to the right, moving our right wrist and arm at the same time to distract and unbalance the attacker, then a quick movement back to the left grabing their hand with your right, bringing your left hand on the out side of their arm and breaking their grip( and there thumb) place your live hand just above their elbow and roll their arm over maintaining your grip with your right hand, on their right hand. Then take em down.
> 
> ...


Greetings 

Good example but there's a big problem. 

The example you gave of CH basically just circumvented or removed the tech from the realm of HKD coordinated power.

What's left is a simple Jujutsu style, but not Hapkido you see by removing the principles you remove the style as well! 

Also you don't need the CH version any Hapkidoin can do that already, so I don't see that as modern or inovative, I teach that stuff to my student as well.


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## Hollywood1340 (Apr 13, 2005)

Yes Mithos I do

Stuart,
 We'll have to do sometime, as words are...well limted.


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## Mithios (Apr 13, 2005)

American HKD said:
			
		

> Greetings
> 
> Good example but there's a big problem.
> 
> ...



You are correct!!  And to me, they are seperate styles, and i think they should be treated as such. To me C.H. is more of a cross training system geared for striking stylest's who wan't to add some joint locking, etc. Into what they do, without getting into the whole art. They also do beginner to intermediate, Trapping, Arnis, BJJ, etc. So a person can get a taste and go get advanced training in these arts if they wish. Personally the cross training in these other arts is what attracted me to it, not the basic Hapkido. I do think that J.P. could have used a different name for his system though. 

Mithios 

( Sung Moo Kwan )


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## Paul B (Apr 13, 2005)

Hi All,

Mithios,in regards to your entry into a basic armbar technique,THKD has this also. Now..it may not be taught that way in the beginning,but it is never a "set in stone" way of execution. We train to be nothing,if not adaptable. The entry you described would be one of many subset entries for the attackers "pulling" motion,nothing to exotic there,eh? 

Anyhoo...it's cool hearing from some of the CHers..you guys seem a quiet bunch.


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## Hollywood1340 (Apr 13, 2005)

Eh, we speak up. But not much into rank or lineage debates. Prefer the kenpo boards myself. And seeing the response to us when we do bring stuff up...oi. Much rather just train


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## Mithios (Apr 13, 2005)

Paul B said:
			
		

> Hi All,
> 
> Mithios,in regards to your entry into a basic armbar technique,THKD has this also. Now..it may not be taught that way in the beginning,but it is never a "set in stone" way of execution. We train to be nothing,if not adaptable. The entry you described would be one of many subset entries for the attackers "pulling" motion,nothing to exotic there,eh?
> 
> Anyhoo...it's cool hearing from some of the CHers..you guys seem a quiet bunch.



Yep! By the way, i am a traditional Hapkido practitioner, I am doing C.H. as a seperate system, I doubt i would ever switch over my Hapkido.

Paul, Do you do Aikido too? I thought i saw a post were you said you did.


Mithios


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## Master Todd Miller (Apr 14, 2005)

Stuart,

When GM Lim teaches a seminar he will focus on a certain set of basic techniques and it depends on at what level one is at as to what you will learn.  GM Lim will teach more advanced techniques and variations but only if the person has a good grasp on basics no matter what rank one holds!

I love working on basic material because everything stems from the first 15 techniques in Jungki Hapkido.   :asian:


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## Mike-IHF (Apr 14, 2005)

Mr. Miller,

Sounds pretty similar to us. We have a 24 basic technique set, and everything stems from that set. These are all from punching attacks, we have other basic sets regarding wrist grabbing techniques. But as far as punching the basic set is 24.


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## glad2bhere (Apr 14, 2005)

Dear Michael: 

I started to move in this direction over on AJ Net regarding this approach to "Ai-Ki" material and I am wondering what your thoughts would be if I told you that I think such an approach would put your training at a disadvantage. 

What I am finding is that so very often the "ai-ki" side of the arts tend to focus on a set of discrete techniques of a given number with the view being to use that set number of techniques in as many response scenerios as possible. The more facile a person is with applying those set teachiques to the broadest range circumstances the more competent a person is considered to be. 

By comparison on the "ki-ai" or "yawara" side of the house, a broader range of techniques is taught by identifying a particular response to a particular situation. Some techniques turn up a number of times while others are very specific to a very specific circumstance. For myself I find that starting with a wider range of techniques and through experience trimming down to my particular "tried&true" techniques works better for me than learning a dozen or so variations of the same technique. WEach student I have is likewise exposed to all of the techniques and through experience tends to develop a handful of techniques that work for them. 

Since you and I may have different views of how we learn/teach would you want to share the advantages of the approach you use as you see them? Thoughts? Comments?


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## American HKD (Apr 14, 2005)

Mithios said:
			
		

> You are correct!! And to me, they are seperate styles, and i think they should be treated as such. To me C.H. is more of a cross training system geared for striking stylest's who wan't to add some joint locking, etc. Into what they do, without getting into the whole art. They also do beginner to intermediate, Trapping, Arnis, BJJ, etc. So a person can get a taste and go get advanced training in these arts if they wish. Personally the cross training in these other arts is what attracted me to it, not the basic Hapkido. I do think that J.P. could have used a different name for his system though.
> 
> Mithios
> 
> ( Sung Moo Kwan )


Thank for the info. 

That's exactly what I was trying to find out from the other guy.

Also I realize CH is not really Hapkido and GM JP holds no master rank in HKD as far as I know, however his rank is strickly a CH rank recognized by the Kido Hae and that a big difference to keep in mind.


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## American HKD (Apr 14, 2005)

Master Todd Miller said:
			
		

> Stuart,
> 
> When GM Lim teaches a seminar he will focus on a certain set of basic techniques and it depends on at what level one is at as to what you will learn. GM Lim will teach more advanced techniques and variations but only if the person has a good grasp on basics no matter what rank one holds!
> 
> I love working on basic material because everything stems from the first 15 techniques in Jungki Hapkido. :asian:


Thabks that sounds right.

I tell my students the basics are everything


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## American HKD (Apr 14, 2005)

Hollywood1340 said:
			
		

> Eh, we speak up. But not much into rank or lineage debates. Prefer the kenpo boards myself. And seeing the response to us when we do bring stuff up...oi. Much rather just train


Greetings

You have to be a little thick skinned to deal my all the opinions that come out of these forums, but most of us are all decent guys.

Trying to be clear and precise in what you write helps


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## Mike-IHF (Apr 14, 2005)

Bruce,

I see your point. I will try and explain how our basic set works, so bare with me. The first 12 techniques, from what I have seen are pretty much the same as most other Hapkido schools. With the exception of our number 5 might be your number 2, but in essence the same technique. However the first 24 we do from straight punches, mainly just because we are here in the U.S, and straight punches are the most pridominant attacks. By this the first 12 techniques are kind of mixed. Our numbers 1,2,3,4, and 6 are all done with an evasive stepping back type of evasion, and turning that into more of the Ki Ai type of execution. These are done in what we call closed stance. Now 5, 7,8,9,10,11, and 12 are all done from an open stance where we use the spinning type of evasion and execute more of the Ai Ki type of techniques. By doing this we feel that the student learns both stances, and evasions for the straight punching attacks. Meaning that the student will feel confortable standing at a bus stop, either in closed, or open stance. So if they are attcked they know that what ever stance they happen to be in, they can execute any one of the basic 12 technique set. Now the second set of 12, are all done from the spinning evasion, and use more of the Ai Ki type of technique. However the second set of twelve go into more of the different application of the same techniques from the first set of twelve. For example- our Kote Gaeshi, is our number 5. In the first twelve set it is done from the spinning evasion and we use both hands to control the wrist to execute the throw. In the second set the spinning is a little tighter and faster(because by this time the student, has a good bases on how to do the spinning) then from there we use one hand to control the wrist, and the other on the face sliding back behind the ear, and into push the head in the same direction we our going with the wrist. Full circle wholness. I have found by myself learning this way, and now teaching it this way, the student gets a pretty complete aray from the first 24 techniques, and feel confortable in bot stances. Thoughts?


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## glad2bhere (Apr 14, 2005)

Dear Michael: 

I understand what you have shared. Within the context of the steps you have outlined is this a closed system of information? What I mean by this is, are the next stages that follow this introductory material built ON this material or taught separately as a "next part of a sequence" TO the introductory material. Put another way I would give the following example. 

In the example of the Outer Wrist Throw, having been introduced to that at the introductory level and shown execution with alternate footwork, does the technique continue to be cultivated? Or, having been familiarized with that technique one moves on to other techniques and only returns to the OWT as the source of occasional varietal information.  Thoughts? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Mike-IHF (Apr 14, 2005)

Bruce,

I would have to say the first, rather than the later. Usually after the basic 24, or around the same time of learning the basic 24 we will teach the same techniques from different situations. Being 24 same side wrist grabs of the same 24 teachniques, cross hand wrist grabs of the same 24 techniques, knife defense of the same 24, sword defense from the same 24, and kick defense from the same 24. Actually kick defense is only 12 cause we only have 12 kicks. After these 24 techniques are learned from all of these attacks, then we move on to learning other more advanced techniques, or what we start getting into the Hapkisul, type of techniques. I hope that helps clarify, if not let me know. Thanks.

Also I forgot to mention, along with these I listed we also learn the same 24 techniques from, hook punches, striking down attacks, outside circle, inside circle etc. then as I said we move on. So total we have a basic set of, let;'s see. about 132 techniques as a basic set.


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## glad2bhere (Apr 14, 2005)

Thanks, Mike.  Now we're getting somewhere! 

Let me take this two steps farther--- one step in each of two directions   


I am assuming that the original 24 teachnique you spoke of are accomplished using, effectively, yu-sool approach. This is to say that the techniques' execution relies on Physics more than anything else. At the next stage, when you start with Hapkiyusool, are the same 24 techniques executed albeit with a focus on impinging on the neuro-muscular system, or is this a completely new set of techniques including a differeing emphasis on execution? 

The other step I would ask about is the addition of ancillary information. For instance, if a person wants to pursue more sword techniques even offense AND defensive are the sword defenses the time to do this or is the sword handled in a separate area of the curriculum down the road? In like manner, I assume that you study what we call "positions of disadvantage". Were a person to want to add experience, technique or teaching approaches might it be added at that point?  If not, where would this be added (if at all).  Thoughts? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Mike-IHF (Apr 14, 2005)

Bruce,

Your first instinct is exact. The first 24 techniques are more of the Yusul appraoach, and the later 24 being more Hapkiyoosool and focusing on the neuro muscular system. 

Your second question, I'm having a hard time understanding. But regarding the sword. The sword is very important in our style, and we try to teach it along with the basic set. Reason being is all of our techniques come from the sword. So by doing the sword, along with the empty hand it gives the student a better understanding of not only why we learn the sword, but also a better understanding of the empty hand techniques. However even though sword is taught as part as the basic set, we don't get to far into the offensive, two man sword against sword attcks, until after 1st Dan. If that's what you mean. GM Chang teaches a little different in Korea, he does not let anyone touch a sword, or Jo until first Dan. His number one priority is teaching the basics, more than anything. Thanks


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## glad2bhere (Apr 14, 2005)

Thanks, you hit it right on the head. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Mike-IHF (Apr 14, 2005)

Bruce,

GREAT! I'm glad I was able to answer your questions. Feel free to ask me anytime. Thanks.


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## glad2bhere (Apr 14, 2005)

I was kind of anticipating that since the sources were already extant in the MT threads (somewhere, I guess) that we would have heard back from Brother Kevin regarding how "totally inaccurate" the earlier post was--- at least by now. 

Good thing I didn't hold my breath. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Hollywood1340 (Apr 14, 2005)

Still waiting here


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## shesulsa (Apr 16, 2005)

Some of the discussion in Yet more discussion on Hapkido origins has been moved and integrated here chronologically.  To discuss the origins please post to the other thread.

 Enjoy.


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## Jungki Hapkido (Apr 21, 2005)

Yes, in the Jungk Ki Kwan system, the basic techniques are very important.
Grandmaster Lim emphasizes this over and over again.
The basic 15 techniques are wrist escapes, wrist techniques, and uniform techniques. Learning these techniques from grabs first, helps the student to understand the mechanics of the technique. As the student progresses and grasps these mechanics, later they are instructed how to apply them from punches. Hapkido techniques are very intricate and being off by an inch or less sometimes warrants their effectiveness when executed. At times when I adjust my students' hand positions, they are amazed that the slightest movement makes such a difference in the power and execution of the technique. Repetition of the basics over and over is the essential key as Master Miller, Master Rosenberg, and many others have already stated.

Master Mike D'Aloia
Iron Eagle Hapkido
Korea Jungki Hapkido & Kuhapdo
www.jungkihapkidoamerica.com
www.jungkikwan.com


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## howard (Apr 23, 2005)

Jungki Hapkido said:
			
		

> Yes, in the Jungk Ki Kwan system, the basic techniques are very important.
> Grandmaster Lim emphasizes this over and over again.
> The basic 15 techniques are wrist escapes, wrist techniques, and uniform techniques. Learning these techniques from grabs first, helps the student to understand the mechanics of the technique. As the student progresses and grasps these mechanics, later they are instructed how to apply them from punches. Hapkido techniques are very intricate and being off by an inch or less sometimes warrants their effectiveness when executed. At times when I adjust my students' hand positions, they are amazed that the slightest movement makes such a difference in the power and execution of the technique. Repetition of the basics over and over is the essential key as Master Miller, Master Rosenberg, and many others have already stated.
> 
> ...


 Absolutely.

 Even after years of practicing the 15 techniques mentioned above, you can still find ways to improve them.  And the comment about the slightest adjustments making a huge difference is right on the money...  as one of Master D'Aloia's students, I have been amazed many times by what a difference these tiny adjustments and tweaks make in the effect of the techniques.


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## Paul B (Apr 23, 2005)

Agreed..the devil is in the details. Just how basic do you get,though? 


Do you break down footwork as a separate point alltogether or do you just include it in the technique? I've noticed that the majority of people (myself included) have a harder time with correct footwork than with what their hands and the rest of their body is doing. 

I do break down footwork into different "exercises". I've noticed that once people get their feet down,the rest falls into place easier because they're in the right "spot" to execute their technique.


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## howard (Apr 25, 2005)

Paul B said:
			
		

> ...Just how basic do you get,though?
> 
> Do you break down footwork as a separate point alltogether or do you just include it in the technique? I've noticed that the majority of people (myself included) have a harder time with correct footwork than with what their hands and the rest of their body is doing.
> 
> I do break down footwork into different "exercises". I've noticed that once people get their feet down,the rest falls into place easier because they're in the right "spot" to execute their technique.


 Paul, we treat footwork as an integral part of any complete technique.  We focus a lot on proper footwork, since it's so important to the outcome of the technique, but we typically just treat it as one more of the total of elements in the technique, to be practiced together with the other elements and coordinated correctly with them.


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## Master Todd Miller (Apr 26, 2005)

_Do you break down footwork as a separate point alltogether or do you just include it in the technique? I've noticed that the majority of people (myself included) have a harder time with correct footwork than with what their hands and the rest of their body is doing. 

I do break down footwork into different "exercises". I've noticed that once people get their feet down,the rest falls into place easier because they're in the right "spot" to execute their technique._

The interesting thing about proper footwork is that if you do not have the correct foot work your body will not be in the proper position to apply your hands in a position of strength & power.  

GM Lim has always said that the basic techniques lay the proper foundation for the advanced techniques.  The first 5 techniques are considered energy practice.  This is helping the student to understand mechanics but even more important is the understanding of the energy relationship between them & their opponent.

The jungki Kwan videos show alot of this.  :asian:  www.millersmudo.com

Take care


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## Jungki Hapkido (May 6, 2005)

Howard and Master Miller are both right on the money.
Footwork, hand, and body postion all go in "hand-in-hand" when practicing/teaching.  


Master Michael D'Aloia
Korea Jung Ki Hapkido & Kuhapdo
Iron Eagle Hapkido


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