# bruce lee in todays world



## tkdguy1982

I wanted to ask something & see what people thought about this.  If Bruce Lee were still alive, do you think he would be the greatest or one of the greatest martial artists around?  Also, if he were to compete in professional fights, such as ufc, or any other kind of professional televised mma events?  Do you think he would win fights or do you think he would lose?


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## Cruentus

I think he'd still be one of the greatest because he always preached to keep learning.

Also, he'd never compete in UFC or anything like that. They had all kinds of competitions during his hay-day that he expressed that he would never compete in. 

I think that he understood the difference between competition and real fighting.

PAUL


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## tkdguy1982

I definently agree, but say if he did compete in those kind of events, do you think he would win?  Me, personally, I think he would win.  Well, later.


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## Cruentus

tkdguy1982 said:
			
		

> I definently agree, but say if he did compete in those kind of events, do you think he would win?  Me, personally, I think he would win.  Well, later.



I have no idea if he would win or not.


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## tkdguy1982

I hear ya, anyone else have any opinions?


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## legend29

I think had he lived, martial arts would be even more advanced today than it is. He was way ahead of his time. His mind and body was one, more so than anyone. I also feel if he was alive( he'd be 63 ) people would try to make a name for themselves by trying to beat up on an old man . He'd probably still be able to take most...lol..

It baffles the mind to think what he could've become had he lived longer. It amazes me to think what all he accomplished in 32 short years. 

   Richie


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## tkdguy1982

Very good post, I most definently agree w/ you.  He would be 63, but like you said, I think he would be able to take most even at 63 years old.


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## moving target

Well for one Bruce Lee was very small (130-140 pounds) so I realy don't think he could win fights against people in a sporting fasion. Nevermind taking his age into account (If you mean if he were to be age 32 today than I would say he would be a damn good fighter in his weight class if he wanted to be. I personaly have the opinion that a lot of very good athletes could have been very good at a lot of sports if they had equal exposure and commitment to that given sport as the sport they became fameos in). As to real fights? I don't think it's very wise to attack anyone who is a well trained fighter regadless of age, Deffinatly not Bruce Lee.

But I would point out that what we think of someone and what they actualy would have become could be two very diffrent things. When we speculate over the posable future of someone like Bruce Lee who was so tallented and so young, I think we tend to idealise what their future had in store for them, we see the best that could have been without regard to wether or not that reality would have been actualised.


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## tkdguy1982

Even so, him being only 130-140 pounds, size is something that really doesn't matter in this art.  Just because someone is big, built, tall, whatever, anybody can have bad days & good.  I think Bruce Lee could take care of his own if he really had to these days.  I don't think he would fight unless he had no other choice though.  What does everyone else think?


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## legend29

Well I figure he could hold his own. I feel he would be in great shape for his age. I do feel people would try to take advantage of his age though, more so than any other art. I mean I could go knockout Ali right now, but that doesn't make me better than him. 

I feel Bruce would be still paving the way for individuals especially for older people. He is and always will be an inspiration to me .

   Richie


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## tkdguy1982

Very true, he probably would have paved the way for a lot of people today, but I say he paved the way for people back then also.  A guy who weighs 140 pounds & can put you into a wall with a 1 inch punch, definently has my respect.  Dead or alive.


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## Elfan

I belive he has been called "pound for pound the bester fighter alive" and that sounds like the best way to descirbe him.  He is (would be) very good, there would be few people his weight (and almost definantly noone his age) who could "beat" him.  I belive he was asked in an interview what he was going to do when he was 70 and he replied "Man there arin't going to be any 70 year old that can push me around!" That said he would probably have trouble with Bob Sapp ( http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/displayfighter.cfm?fighterid=4416 ) or comepting in sporting events against people who train specifically for them.


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## Black Bear

Oh, while we're at it--who would win in a fight between GI Joe and Transformers? Regardless, Optimus Prime will always have my respect. He was such a great leader, and he gave up his life for humankind. 

Come on, people. Who cares? Bruce Lee was a really sharp guy who was great at what we did, and advanced the way that martial artists think about combat. Who cares if he "would have been" the best?

No one even knows if he was the best at the time. When asked whether Bruce Lee had "never been beaten", his close friend Dan Inosanto paused a moment and simply said, "If you're going to go swimming, you're going to get wet." It's well known that Gene LeBell tapped him a few times. Bruce Lee would have learned a lot in the past thirty years, but someone else could still tap him today. 

The answer, of course, is that Transformers would "obviously" wipe GI Joe off the face of the earth.


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## legend29

We're not saying who would win with whom, it's just that we were talking about what he'd be like today. Some of us are just paying our respects for him. I'm not saying he was unbeatable, but in his element you would have to be on your A game. Ali once was asked who would win in a fight against him and Bruce and he replied, " if it was in a ring with rules then I would win, but if you went into the street then Bruce would win ." That says a lot, when Bruce and Gene Lebell would spar. If they started on the ground then Bruce was out of his element, but if they started in standing up a few feet apart, it was no contest. Dan Inosanto once said,  "that he had seen Bruce spar with well known Karate champions, and they couldn't score on him."  Bruce was gifted and should still be given some respect, even in todays world. I'm not trying to argue, I respect your thoughts into this matter. This is just a friendly debate. Again, I come in piece my friend !

  Richie


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## Black Bear

Fair enough. Your opinions are sound ones. But if you look at the very top post, yes it IS about who would win with whom. "one of the greatest"? "would he win fights"? I am more concerned with my own performance than Bruce's. 

Peace.


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## Black Bear

BTW legend, I'm just curious since you seem to know about BL. When I heard about GL tapping Bruce, I assumed they were sparring and he took him down. Is this not the case?


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## legend29

You're right Blackbear my fault. Well ever since I posted it was not about who would win against whom . Also for the record Transformers would whip some G.I. JOE , and no one can knock Optimus Prime's leadership abilities...lol..just kidding.


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## Cruentus

You lost me Black Bear

Who's GL?


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## legend29

From what I heard ( again this how rumors start ) it was more like them teaching each other. Gene would give him insights to grappling, for an example: "There is no way to get out of such and such, let me show you what I mean Bruce ". Then Bruce would allow him to do whatever type move and Bruce wouldn't be able to escape. Then also Bruce would demonstrate something for Gene. Like I said, "from what I was told it was more like pre- arranged sparing."

Again I'm a huge fan of Bruce's, but he was not unbeatable, but it would take a heck of a man and some luck to beat him. Speed Kills in almost every sport ( reality or not ) and he had an abundance of it . I feel Bruce would also cheat if he had to, that was just the nature of him. Kill or be killed type attitude . 

Some people get this big misconception about him from the movie, "Dragon, the Bruce Lee Story " this movie was off on sooooo many actual things. I have respect for many martial artist. I know I would not want to fight Gene Lebell on the Mat ( or any place for that matter ) and I wouldn't want to fight Bruce either. I'm a piece maker if at all possible..lol..

I do look forward to reading Joe Lewis' book on Bruce Lee's art, it is supposed to have insights from people like Bob Wall and Gene Lebell. This might end some of the rumors.

 Richie


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## Black Bear

Gene LeBell


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## MA-Caver

tkdguy1982 said:
			
		

> I wanted to ask something & see what people thought about this.  If Bruce Lee were still alive, do you think he would be the greatest or one of the greatest martial artists around?  Also, if he were to compete in professional fights, such as ufc, or any other kind of professional televised mma events?  Do you think he would win fights or do you think he would lose?



That kind of question is kinda speculative which is alright. Might as well ask the same for Ed Parker and a few other MA legends. 
IMO I think Lee would've preferred to help carry MA FILMS to a different level than what they are now. True, that he helped (greatly) inspire today's MA film successes and styles but I feel he had a vision that he was working on (in progress) for how MA films should be portrayed. I recall that he preferred to be considered as an ACTOR before being a fighter. He used MA to help him get into films ... particularly in America. 
That he refused to get into tournaments says something about his desire to be called a fighter. 
He could fight and he could kick *** and do it in such a way that we end up being awed and inspired. We would also come away learning something. 

Same would be applied to Ed Parker (though not an actor) for example. The man invented American Kenpo and has (and continues to) influence hundreds of thousands. Parker was an awesome MA-ist. But would he be effective in a fight today? Mebbe, mebbe not? Depends. Same with Lee. 
I think both of them would probably NOT want to fight but to TEACH how to fight, as well as apply their personal insights and philosophies to whomever they're teaching. Joon Rhee is doing the same today, teaching a way to THINK while teaching to fight. 
There are dozens of other examples alive and dead that the question can apply to. 
I guess I'm just taking to a different perspective.  :asian:


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## legend29

Excellent post Macaver ! That is a great perspective to have, it's so true that there are many martial artist past and present who deserve a great deal of credit, not just Bruce Lee. Like I said earlier, " I'm a fan of and respect all martial artist. I would also like to add that although I'm a fan of many, it's really unfair to compare different era's. Everyone tries to compare Michael Jordan to Dr. J, or Ali to Tyson ( 80's version ) thirty years from now we'll be comparing one of the Gracies to the latest craze in martial arts. Again, great post !

  Richie


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## tkdguy1982

Good post Macaver, I agree w/ you on that.  Many MA's out there that have paved the way for others, some that are still doing it today.


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## Gary Crawford

On the lighter side and a bit off the subject.Since you mentioned Gen LaBell,I was reminded of a story(which has been verified to be true)about Bruce an Gene.During the "Green Hornet" days,Gene was a stunt coordinator working for the same studio as Bruce and the studio sent a bus to the emplyees homes to pick them up in the mornings(to make sure everyone made it there on time).Bruce and Gene lived fairly close to each other so they waited for the bus together.Bruce was always "messing around" saying "cmon Gene,let's go a round!"One day while waiting for the bus and Bruce was doing his usual thing,Gene saw the bus comming around the corner and turned to Bruce and said"look, there's the bus!' As soon as Bruce turned his head,Gene picked up Bruce and stuffed him into a trash can!All you could see was his legs and arms and heard lots of chinese cursing.Gene got on the bus and told the driver"Let's get out of here before he kills us all!"They were good freinds,so Bruce never retaliated.


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## moving target

Out of curiosity how was that verified?


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## Gary Crawford

I should have included that Proffesor Gary Dill says he verified it with Gene LeBell and the guy who was driving the bus.If it isn't true,then that would be another lie he told me.


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## moving target

Unless Professor Gary Dill was living in that area or working with them, I would question that one simply on tracking down the bus driver and asking him about it..  But I don't know Gary Dill  and I don't mean that statement to sound rude insulting or as an affront to Gary Dill's integrity. Just skepticism.


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## Josephk

i think bruce could beat anyone his size, but i do not think he is unbeatable, for instance, put him up against someone like mas oyama in a 'street' fight, and i'd say oyama would definately win.  and in reply to the comments about bruce not wanting to fight unless it was necissary, i get the impression from interviews and some of his writings etc. that he loved to fight, and often got into fights when he was younger.  obviously i could be wrong however...


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## loki09789

This is by no means a judgement on the man, but I think that by now, Bruce Lee's skeletons would have come out and really destroyed his movie and grandmastership credibility.  Any one of his illegitimate children would have come forward, his drug use would have been exposed by someone interested in making a buck off of a scandal, As his skill faded with age - therefore creating something similar to the 'old fat man' Elvis vs the 'young superstar' Elvis.  Anyone who kicked his *** 'back in the day' would have come forward yet again.... seems in this day that the more vocal of the martial arts/media community tend to speak the loudest and the most when you can see the staple in the centerfold.

As an artist, honestly, he wasn't doing anything different from the FMA's or the more progressive of the KenpoKa.  The thing that he did do was promote the philosophy that was parallel to these ideas better than the rest with his charismatic personallity, his movie star status and contacts, and his incredible skill and athletic ability.

Love the movies, love the ideology but don't want to deify the man for fear that I will only see my personal range of potential as automatically less than anyone elses.


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## Fightfan00

Yes I do believe if Bruce Lee was alive today he would be one of the great est martial artistist because his great fighting ability would evole into a great teaching ability not just to teach poeple to fight but to use there heads and learn from there exoeriences.


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## FasterthanDeath

Would I say he is the best, yes, I would say that. But even the best has his opposite. I love Ali, but he lost to frasier. I love Roy jones, but he lost to Tarver. There will always be someone faster and stronger and they have just a little more skill than you. And thats all it takes. Yes Bruce Lee would be considered the greatest, but in the end his greatness would produce someone greater.


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## Flatlander

> but in the end his greatness would produce someone greater.


Nice insight.


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## Littledragon

tkdguy1982 said:
			
		

> I wanted to ask something & see what people thought about this. If Bruce Lee were still alive, do you think he would be the greatest or one of the greatest martial artists around? Also, if he were to compete in professional fights, such as ufc, or any other kind of professional televised mma events? Do you think he would win fights or do you think he would lose?


 
Yes absoulutly. He was the first martial artist in the world to question tradition. He was the first one to be a multi dimensional fighter. In incoperated grappling, kicking, punching, etc... He was the one who paved the way for Mixed Martial Arts combinding styles together in order to form one that includes the techniques you need in order to be a sucesfull fighter. The problem with your question is many people have opinions saying he would do good or he wouldnt etc... The real answer to the question is we would never know. But imo he is still the greatest martial artist of all time because he never trapped himself in only one set of traditional belief. You have great martial artists such as Mas Oyama Rickson Gracie Morehei Ueshiba etc.. but they are not the BEST because they never questioned if tradition could really hold up in the street and because they are just one dimentional.


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## Littledragon

FasterthanDeath said:
			
		

> Would I say he is the best, yes, I would say that. But even the best has his opposite. I love Ali, but he lost to frasier. I love Roy jones, but he lost to Tarver. There will always be someone faster and stronger and they have just a little more skill than you. And thats all it takes. Yes Bruce Lee would be considered the greatest, but in the end his greatness would produce someone greater.


The reason I think there won't be another martial artist like him is because he is the ONE who set the barriers and questioned if tradition really worked in reality, he is the ONE who attributed MMA and all forms of Martial Arts to free himself from being a one dimentional fighter. Many can capitiliaze on his teachings but because Bruce Lee was the first one to actually realize that the others who use his "greatness to produce something greater" Can not fully achieve that because they did not come up with the brilliance that Bruce did and untill time goes on so far we haven't seen a BRILLIANT Martial Artist sicne Bruce.
:bow:


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## Flatlander

Granted, Bruce was thinker.  Granted, Bruce was a revolutionary.  Granted, Bruce was one of the first 'Martial Philosophers' to gain extreme American popularity.  But I have to take issue with the idea that he was the 'greatest for ever'.  There will always be an evolution underway.  I think that it is a little short sighted perhaps to proclaim Bruce the greatest martial artist that there ever will be.  Remember that Bruce himself was constantly evolving "his" personal art, and to think that nobody else can follow his path is perhaps assigning superior powers to someone who was just a man.  I have read his books, I have studied his art, and if we are to assign him any superior honour, it should be to thank him for opening the door, that we may all share his vision.:asian:


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## Littledragon

flatlander said:
			
		

> Granted, Bruce was thinker. Granted, Bruce was a revolutionary. Granted, Bruce was one of the first 'Martial Philosophers' to gain extreme American popularity. But I have to take issue with the idea that he was the 'greatest for ever'. There will always be an evolution underway. I think that it is a little short sighted perhaps to proclaim Bruce the greatest martial artist that there ever will be. Remember that Bruce himself was constantly evolving "his" personal art, and to think that nobody else can follow his path is perhaps assigning superior powers to someone who was just a man. I have read his books, I have studied his art, and if we are to assign him any superior honour, it should be to thank him for opening the door, that we may all share his vision.:asian:


Very well said. Physically I don't think any other person could compete with him, I really feel he is the best fighter still because he is just super natural, his skill does all the talking.


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## jeffkyle

Littledragon said:
			
		

> Yes absoulutly. He was the first martial artist in the world to question tradition. He was the first one to be a multi dimensional fighter. In incoperated grappling, kicking, punching, etc... He was the one who paved the way for Mixed Martial Arts combinding styles together in order to form one that includes the techniques you need in order to be a sucesfull fighter. The problem with your question is many people have opinions saying he would do good or he wouldnt etc... The real answer to the question is we would never know. But imo he is still the greatest martial artist of all time because he never trapped himself in only one set of traditional belief. You have great martial artists such as Mas Oyama Rickson Gracie Morehei Ueshiba etc.. but they are not the BEST because they never questioned if tradition could really hold up in the street and because they are just one dimentional.





			
				Littledragon said:
			
		

> The reason I think there won't be another martial artist like him is because he is the ONE who set the barriers and questioned if tradition really worked in reality, he is the ONE who attributed MMA and all forms of Martial Arts to free himself from being a one dimentional fighter. Many can capitiliaze on his teachings but because Bruce Lee was the first one to actually realize that the others who use his "greatness to produce something greater" Can not fully achieve that because they did not come up with the brilliance that Bruce did and untill time goes on so far we haven't seen a BRILLIANT Martial Artist sicne Bruce.



Ever Heard of Ed Parker?


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## Littledragon

jeffkyle said:
			
		

> Ever Heard of Ed Parker?


Ofcourse I have heard of Ed Parker, foudner of American Kenpo.

Like I posted before one of his quotes I look up to the most, "I keep constantly hearing that this style is better than that style. It is not the style it is the man..."




Tarek (16)


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## Flatlander

This can't go anywhere productive.


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## Littledragon

jeffkyle said:
			
		

> Ever Heard of Ed Parker?


But great point Ed Parker questioned tradition in his style of Kenpo which was a giant step in the martial arts but what I was getting at was Bruce Lee was the one of the first multi dimensional fighter realizing that putting too much confidence in ONE style is cheating to yourself in how to sucesfully defend your self in a street situation.



Tarek


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## Littledragon

flatlander said:
			
		

> This can't go anywhere productive.


Right because he is dead lol.

But you are right who are we to predict what Bruce can or can't do.



Tarek


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## jeffkyle

Littledragon said:
			
		

> But great point Ed Parker questioned tradition in his style of Kenpo which was a giant step in the martial arts but what I was getting at was Bruce Lee was the one of the first multi dimensional fighter realizing that putting too much confidence in ONE style is cheating to yourself in how to sucesfully defend your self in a street situation.
> 
> 
> 
> Tarek



"One of" was the most accurate part of your statement.


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## Littledragon

jeffkyle said:
			
		

> "One of" was the most accurate part of your statement.


Please tell me what else was not accurate so I can grow and learn knoweldgeably as a martial artist.

Tarek


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## Flatlander

> Bruce Lee was the one of the first multi dimensional fighter realizing that putting too much confidence in ONE style is cheating to yourself in how to sucesfully defend your self in a street situation.


This has become a commonly held belief.  Remy Presas also comes to mind...
How about Dan Anderson, ever heard of him?


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## Littledragon

flatlander said:
			
		

> This has become a commonly held belief. Remy Presas also comes to mind...
> How about Dan Anderson, ever heard of him?


Yup heard of them both, I am found of Remy and his brilliance and mastery in escrima/kali and philliapino martial arts.



Tarek


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## Flatlander

Littledragon said:
			
		

> Yup heard of them both, I am found of Remy and his brilliance and mastery in escrima/kali and philliapino martial arts.
> 
> 
> 
> Tarek


Given your fondness for Professor Presas, then you must know

From Mano Y Mano, by Master Dan Anderson:
"In 1957 Professor Presas established Modern Arnis and was officially declared the father and founder of Modern Arnis by the Filipino Government.

Modern Arnis is the name Remy Presas gave to his personal distillation of a combination of Filipino Martioal Arts, karate, judo and jujutsu."

Bruce Lee was born in 1940.

From the introduction of The Tao of Jeet Kune Do:
"At the age of thirteen, Bruce started lessons in the wing chun style of gung fu..."

That makes Bruce 17 years old with 4 years of Wing Chun training when Professor Presas founded Modern Arnis, so to say



> He was the one who paved the way for Mixed Martial Arts combinding styles together in order to form one that includes the techniques you need in order to be a sucesfull fighter.


and



> but what I was getting at was Bruce Lee was the one of the first multi dimensional fighter realizing that putting too much confidence in ONE style is cheating to yourself in how to sucesfully defend your self in a street situation.


would be an inaccuracy.

IMHO,

Dan


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## Littledragon

flatlander said:
			
		

> Given your fondness for Professor Presas, then you must know
> 
> From Mano Y Mano, by Master Dan Anderson:
> "In 1957 Professor Presas established Modern Arnis and was officially declared the father and founder of Modern Arnis by the Filipino Government.
> 
> Modern Arnis is the name Remy Presas gave to his personal distillation of a combination of Filipino Martioal Arts, karate, judo and jujutsu."
> 
> Bruce Lee was born in 1940.
> 
> From the introduction of The Tao of Jeet Kune Do:
> "At the age of thirteen, Bruce started lessons in the wing chun style of gung fu..."
> 
> That makes Bruce 17 years old with 4 years of Wing Chun training when Professor Presas founded Modern Arnis, so to say
> 
> and
> 
> would be an inaccuracy.
> 
> IMHO,
> 
> Dan


Ok thank you for clearing that up I have learned alot from this post. I am very fond of Professor Presas he is a true master in the martial arts and I respect people like that. I have never studied Modern Arnis but I am open to anything. Thank you for that great information I just learned something new from this thank you.

Tarek


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## MA-Caver

Littledragon said:
			
		

> Ofcourse I have heard of Ed Parker, foundner of American Kenpo.
> Like I posted before one of his quotes I look up to the most, "I keep constantly hearing that this style is better than that style. It is not the style it is the man..."
> 
> Tarek (16)



I am not a Kenpoist (though I have re-started my studies with the art a little bit) so this cannot be construde as biased posting by any definition. The (below) is taken directly from page 32, 66 and page 76 of "_Ed Parker's Infinite Insights Into Kenpo_" Book One. This is (partially) what Parker had to say about Bruce Lee:


> My connection with the T.V. and Movie Industry enabled me to introduce and establish Bruce Lee in the "Green Hornet" T.V. series which led him to other roles and eventually to stardom. I first met Bruce in San Francisco through a mutual friend James Lee (no relation to Bruce). James and I continuously discussed, compared, analyzed, and dissected the Martial Arts whenever we were together. <snip> James always kept me abreast of the latest Martial Arts developments, and therefore, called me one day to tell me of his meeting with Bruce Lee. He was excited when he spoke to me on the telephone and requested that I fly to Oakland, California to meet Bruce. "This guy is fantastic!" he said. "You've got to meet him."
> Meeting Bruce was indeed an experience. He was fast, and for a man of his stature, very powerful. He spurted forth lots of philosophy that day in addition to showing his physical prowess. He expounded on the merits of "Wing Chun", of _chi sao _ (sticky hands), and the logic behind straight line action. He left no doubt of his ability and intelligence.
> He had a cocky attitude, but treated all who were there with respect. It was apparent that he could back up his philosophies. I was impressed with everything that he did that day with the exception of his Wing Chun stance which I later proved detrimental to the executioner. As I witnessed his performance, I could envision him performing for others -- especially for those who were from systems that were set in their ways.
> I felt that a demonstration by Bruce at my first world wide annual tournament in Long Beach, CA would enlighten the Martial Arts world. His demonstration did just that. Seeing Bruce perform did make others realize that there was more to the Martial Arts than anticipated. I filmed Bruce's demonstration that day (Aug. 2nd 1964) in color and sound. It was the showing of this film to Bill Dozier, producer of the "Green Hornet" series (who originally wanted to cast Bruce in a series called "Number One Son", a take off from Charlie Chan, that landed Bruce the part of Kato, side kick of the Green Hornet. There was no doubt in my mind that exposing Bruce on T.V. would enhance interest in the Martial Arts world wide. This was another rewarding experience.
> ----
> Before the late Bruce Lee was officially introduced to the American Martial Arts World, he and I had many long discussions at my home when he was a house guest, and after his introduction when we travelled together across the United States on numerous occasions to attend tournaments. In comparing and exchanging Martial Arts philosophies, concepts, and discoveries, he concurred that there are three main stages of learning with each stage subject to plateaus of graduated progress. The three are the primitive, mechanical, and spontaneous. It was from this discussion that the "logo for the first 1964 International Karate Championships (the event where Bruce Lee  was first introduced to the Martial Arts World) got part of it's meaning.
> -----
> Bruce Lee was indeed a remarkable Martial Artist gifted with abilities beyond many of the world's greatest athletes. Although his exposure was brief, he influenced many as evidenced by advocates perpetuating his teachings and philosophies. But as I am approached by many of his followers sermonizing "there is no help, but self-help", "no style", style, " we do not suddenly become free we simply are free," formulas can only inhibit freedom", or "take that which is useful and discard the rest", I often wonder if they understand what Bruce really meant. In fact, I doubt if they have taken the time to fully analyze many of his statements. Perhaps if they did, their philosophical outlook would take on more realism. <snip>
> _(footnote 9)_ Bruce at no time disclaimed the usefulness of an instructor or the study of a base as some of his followers (who never studied with him) claim. However he felt that while an instructor can supply you with a base, he is no more than a guide. Once the base is obtained, it is the student who must utilize the base as it applies to him. In otherwords, a student must use the base for himself. "You learn" he said, "by studying your own cause of ignorance."
> _(footnote 10)_ Here again, Bruce was not opposed to learning the basics of a system. He was opposed to getting caught up in the regimentation of the basics of a system. He never made a distinction between the terms _system_ and _style_, he nevertheless believed that a style should develop from within the individual. He felt that instructors were only useful in taking a student to a certian point. Expression from that point on came from within an individual. As he explained it to me, as verified by Dan Inosanto, "a system binds you." Wing Chun's forte, he said requires maintaining a particular distance for their straight blast punch to be effective. Bruce, therefore, found himself bound by Wing Chun's calibration of distance and according to him, liberated himself from the Wing Chun system in order to effectively function at any given distance or range.



The above paragraphs (verbatium) tell me that Parker had indeed great respect for the man and was happy to have a hand in getting Bruce introduced to Hollywood which elevated him to his (now) legendary status. He also knew Bruce well enough to understand him better than most of us today. This shows that Bruce was an innovator in Parker's view by creating Jeet Kune Do, just as Parker was an innovator with the creation of his American Kenpo and so on with others. 
Does this make Bruce Lee the "greatest"? Absolutely not. Nor does creating American Kenpo make Ed Parker the "greatest". It does make the two (among many others) great because they help broaden the (inner and outer) knowledge gained from the study of Martial Arts. 
As I've said earlier in this thread. Lee was a brilliant performer, an extremely talented actor and an extraordinarly gifted Martial Artist who was able to take Martial Arts and show people just how wonderful it really is and what a person man or woman is potentially capable of doing via the medium of film and television. 
One more thought; I've met many Martial Artists and several Grand Masters, including Yip Sing, and Ed Parker Jr. I've only known maybe two or three (Martialist) that were arrogant and so full of it their blue eyes were brown. In all, IMO, Martialist are humble people, *very confident *  but humble people. Something tells me that Bruce Lee probably would have humbly rejected the adjective of "the greatest."


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## Flatlander

Excellent fargon post MACaver.  five stars.


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## MA-Caver

Aww shucks! T'aint nuthin'   
But thanks... and thanks for the rep points... both of you, whomever you are. 
 :asian:  :asian:  :asian:  :asian:  :asian:


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## Littledragon

MACaver said:
			
		

> Aww shucks! T'aint nuthin'
> But thanks... and thanks for the rep points... both of you, whomever you are.
> :asian: :asian: :asian: :asian: :asian:


One was by me, I learned alot from that post and I thought it was great. 

Tarek


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## Kevin Walker

tkdguy1982 said:
			
		

> I wanted to ask something & see what people thought about this.  If Bruce Lee were still alive, do you think he would be the greatest or one of the greatest martial artists around?  Also, if he were to compete in professional fights, such as ufc, or any other kind of professional televised mma events?  Do you think he would win fights or do you think he would lose?



As far as the USA is concerned, if Bruce Lee were still alive, he would be considered as a pathfinder for popularizing the martial arts,  just as Steve Reeves was considered a pathfinder for popularizing  bodybuilding.

Yet in Asia, Bruce Lee was considered just another martial art Wing Chun practioner  -  "Nothing Special" as described by Run Run Shaw, the martial art movie director. 

If Bruce Lee competed in professional fights back when he was in his prime, I don't think he would have been any better than any other professional athlete.  As Bruce Lee said in an interview, the majority of his most effective techniques, such as finger jabs to the eyes or kicks to the shins & knees or attacks to the throat, would have been eliminated from a professional bout and what good is that?

Today in 2004, if Bruce Lee survived his injury, he would probably be a mentor and a very sought after teacher or be the governor of some state.


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## Flatlander

Hey, that's a cool idea.  I wonder what kind of politician he would have made?  He certainly had the mind for it, and I liked his philosophies.  How could the principles of JKD apply to public administration?


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## Kevin Walker

flatlander said:
			
		

> Hey, that's a cool idea.  I wonder what kind of politician he would have made?  He certainly had the mind for it, and I liked his philosophies.  How could the principles of JKD apply to public administration?



Besides being an excellent and innovative martial artist, Bruce Lee was a talented actor and earned a B.A. in Philosophy, he had an acute mind and his vocabulary was as potent as his one-inch punch!

The philosophy of his Jeet Kune Do was heavily influenced by Taoism (not Buddhism or Confucianism).  So I would guess that as a politician he would use the 'soft sell' method employed by salesmen when trying to pass a bill or make concessions with the State board, as opposed to using an overbearing personality and browbeating political opponents as well as allies into seeing it his way.  Try reading Sun Tzu's THE ART OF WAR and apply it to politics and see if it resembles Bruce Lee's philosophy of JKD.


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## Littledragon

I don't think it is right to say he would be a politician. He is a martial artist and died a legend we will keep it at that and try not to predict his future if he were still alive.



Tarek


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## Kevin Walker

Littledragon said:
			
		

> I don't think it is right to say he would be a politician. He is a martial artist and died a legend we will keep it at that and try not to predict his future if he were still alive.
> 
> 
> 
> Tarek


 
And that is true of all 'what if' questions, the bain of any historian.

Yet, generally speaking, since Bruce Lee was both a real actor and a real martial artist, and based on the number of actors or martial artists who have entered politics - such as Congressman Fred Grandy, 'Gofer' of the LOVEBOAT; or Senator Ben Campbell, three time U.S. Judo champion and a coach of the U.S. Olympic Judo team and a chairman of the USJA; then it is a reasonable assumption that a 63 year old Bruce Lee today might, perhaps, maybe, possibly enter politics.  But, we will never know.  So 'what if' questions remain an incentive for lively debate.


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## Kevin Walker

flatlander said:
			
		

> This can't go anywhere productive.


Usually the 'what if' and 'who's the best' questions end up as an infinite regress or as an unsolved paradox.  But these type of dead end questions do generate lively debate and discussion, if not a lot of bland hero worship.


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## Flatlander

From *The Tao of Jeet Kune Do* - p. 207

"'The art of government is not to let men grow stale,' then, it is an art of unbalancing.  The crucial difference between a totalitarian regime and a free social order is, perhaps, in the methods of unbalancing by which their people are kept active and striving."

This illustrates that Bruce had contemplated governance, and in fact related it to hand to hand combat, as I think the underlying principle of the quote applies to both.  

Totalitarian regime - physical dominance.

Free social order - baiting/feinting/carrot dangling.


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## Kevin Walker

flatlander said:
			
		

> From *The Tao of Jeet Kune Do* - p. 207
> 
> "'The art of government is not to let men grow stale,' then, it is an art of unbalancing. The crucial difference between a totalitarian regime and a free social order is, perhaps, in the methods of unbalancing by which their people are kept active and striving."
> 
> This illustrates that Bruce had contemplated governance, and in fact related it to hand to hand combat, as I think the underlying principle of the quote applies to both.
> 
> Totalitarian regime - physical dominance.
> 
> Free social order - baiting/feinting/carrot dangling.


Since Bruce Lee earned his B.A. in Philosophy, I'm sure he "had contemplated governance" as any other philosophy major in college; plus Bruce Lee was steeped in the study of Taoism, which, in the Tao Te Ching, also contemplates governance.  So, again, "if" Bruce Lee were alive today, it is reasonable to guess that he might possibly have entered politics.

Studying philosophy is just as essential to the Eastern martial arts as studying the fighting techniques.  And personally I believe a knowledge of philosophy should be a requirement for testing for rank in all martial arts schools.


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## OC Kid

I know a man who trained with Dan Innosanto in his garage before he started his school. We worked out about 6 months ago. (hes very busy) he taught me Bruces One Inch Punch and we had conversations about Bruce.
He told me what Danny is teaching today is far more advanced than what he learned from him in the begininng. thus what Bruce said about constantly changing , improving has come to fruition. What I think is Bruce is a  Meijn ( I think that is how it is written) A master , one that only comes around every few 100 years or so. Much like Itosu or Mushashi.
Today I think he art would be simpler to learn, I think it would be devistating to the people who would attack his students. That is if he decided to open up a school again. Remember his last years he was acting not teaching.
But I do think he would develope the arts far beyond what they are today.
But then again maybe he did what He had to do and his job was done and he was called home even at such a early age.


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## Zepp

If Bruce Lee were alive today, he'd be governor of California.


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## Littledragon

Zepp said:
			
		

> If Bruce Lee were alive today, he'd be governor of California.


LOL, hey anything is possible, at least he'd be better than Bush.


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## Kevin Walker

Littledragon said:
			
		

> LOL, hey anything is possible, at least he'd be better than Bush.


While I find it plausible that Bruce Lee might possibly perhaps maybe have headed towards politics in his later years, I can't even guess if he would be a liberal or a conservative; or a republican, green, independent, or democrat?  

That would be a challenging guess.


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## Littledragon

Kevin Walker said:
			
		

> While I find it plausible that Bruce Lee might possibly perhaps maybe have headed towards politics in his later years, I can't even guess if he would be a liberal or a conservative; or a republican, green, independent, or democrat?
> 
> That would be a challenging guess.


With martial arts being his greatest passion I don't think he would have gone the path of any other career besides martial arts..


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## Kevin Walker

Littledragon said:
			
		

> With martial arts being his greatest passion I don't think he would have gone the path of any other career besides martial arts..


Don't forget that Bruce Lee was an actor to earn his bread & butter, he had already strayed from the path of martial arts.  Not all his roles had martial arts themes.

And again, it is just sheer speculation what Bruce Lee would be doing today in his 60s, but my guess is that he might have considered politics.


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## Littledragon

Kevin Walker said:
			
		

> Don't forget that Bruce Lee was an actor to earn his bread & butter, he had already strayed from the path of martial arts. Not all his roles had martial arts themes.
> 
> And again, it is just sheer speculation what Bruce Lee would be doing today in his 60s, but my guess is that he might have considered politics.


All I can say is we will never know..


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## Kevin Walker

Littledragon said:
			
		

> All I can say is we will never know..


Yes, that's what "sheer speculation" means.


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## Littledragon

Kevin Walker said:
			
		

> Yes, that's what "sheer speculation" means.


 
Gotcha.


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## ace

Kevin Walker said:
			
		

> Don't forget that Bruce Lee was an actor to earn his bread & butter, he had already strayed from the path of martial arts.  Not all his roles had martial arts themes.
> 
> And again, it is just sheer speculation what Bruce Lee would be doing today in his 60s, but my guess is that he might have considered politics.




Bruce Lee was an Actor Before he was a Martial Artist
His Father was an Actor as Well.
Bruce Was infact 6 years old when he started his film caree in 1946


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## Littledragon

ace said:
			
		

> Bruce Lee was an Actor Before he was a Martial Artist
> His Father was an Actor as Well.
> Bruce Was infact 6 years old when he started his film caree in 1946


The minute Bruce was born he was a martial artist, martial arts was in his blood, when you looked in to his eyes you know that he was created to be a martial artist and not anything else.


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## ace

Littledragon said:
			
		

> The minute Bruce was born he was a martial artist, martial arts was in his blood, when you looked in to his eyes you know that he was created to be a martial artist and not anything else.


Bruce was a great MARTIAL ARTIST.
He was also a Cha Cha Dancing Champion,Xavier Boxing Team Member & Champion,A Farther , Son & Husband to Linda.

His Son Would Go on to Be an Actor Just Like He did taking
After his Father. His Daughter is also Acting these Day's.

If Bruce Were Alive to day He would do a Costar with
Either Jet or Jackie.


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## Flatlander

If Bruce Lee was in the movies today, I hope he'd play some old master, in a serious role, rather than like, an old cop, in a comedy style with Jackie Chan, and/or Chris Tucker.  I don't think he would have been very funny.  Then again, never met him.  I hope he would have taken a Star Wars role.  That would totally rule.


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## MA-Caver

ace said:
			
		

> Bruce was a great MARTIAL ARTIST.
> *He was also a Cha Cha Dancing Champion, Xavier Boxing Team Member & Champion, A Father, Son & Husband to Linda.*
> 
> His Son Would Go on to Be an Actor Just Like He did taking
> After his Father. His Daughter is also Acting these Days.
> 
> If Bruce Were Alive to day He would do a Costar with
> Either Jet or Jackie.


Thank you Ace for pointing *that* out. As he was definitely more than just a *GOD OF MARTIAL ARTS*!  As many people want to make him out to be. Which he wasn't. IMO  :asian: 
I'd dare say he would even star in a Walker: Texas Ranger episode (or three). He really _loved_ acting. It was fighting (MA) that helped him get into acting and breaking the "chop-chop", "ah-so", "Confucius say:..." and "our Chop Suey is velly good yes, velly good" stereotyped chinese roles.  I would even go as far to speculate that he would've loved to do some NON-MA roles as well. He was doing them in Hong Kong Cinema before he came to the U.S. as evident from this list found here http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000045/


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## achilles

From a martial arts perspective, I think that Bruce Lee would have seriously looked into submission wrestling and perhaps BJJ to add a more complete ground grappling dimension to his JKD.  I also think that the majority of his work would be more philosophically oriented.


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## MA-Caver

achilles said:
			
		

> From a martial arts perspective, I think that Bruce Lee would have seriously looked into submission wrestling and perhaps BJJ to add a more complete ground grappling dimension to his JKD.  I also think that the majority of his work would be more philosophically oriented.



Well yeah, considering his major in college was philosophy... it stands to reason.


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## sifu nick

I think he would be considered one of the greatest teachers around. I think he would still be teaching and giving seminars.


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## bassplayer

Re: Bruce Lee & grappling, I'd say that's very likely, given the couple books I've read by Larry Hartsell. He mentioned that Bruce was interested in pursuing grappling skills before he died.  I bought Hartsell's JKD grappling book and it looks pretty good, I was pleasantly suprised that he even autographed it before sending it. I'll post the book names later if anyone's interested!


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## Flatlander

bassplayer, welcome to Martial Talk!  Go ahead and post the book titles, as the more information we can put together, the better off the whole site can be.  While your at it, why not give us a review, too?

It's great to have more knowledgeable JKD people here, so enjoy your stay, and happy posting! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Dan Bowman
 Martial Talk
-Moderator-


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## MA-Caver

sifu nick said:
			
		

> I think he would be considered one of the greatest teachers around. I think he would still be teaching and giving seminars.


Can you even _*imagine*_ how much one of those seminars would cost? And how quick they would fill up as soon as they're announced? Geez! 
Betcha he would've made a buncha vids though. 

And with the Internet? ... whoo!


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## hardheadjarhead

If he were alive...

It would be reasonable to assume he would have made more films, done some television shows, maybe had his own series.  He likely would have gone into producing his own stuff.

JKD/Jun Fan would have grown even further under his and Inosanto's guidance.

He'd be over sixty.

Yeah...I think he'd probably be touted as one of the greats.  His death, however, mythologized him.  Living would have robbed him of that.


Regards,


Steve


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## Flatlander

I bet he would have tried the talk show thing....everyone else has.


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## bassplayer

I'll try and post 'em up this weekend...if I dont, then after I get back from vacation!


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## Troy Ostapiw/Canada

This question has been debated for 30 years, and I think it is safe to say that Bruce Lee revolutionized the Martial Arts, and was ahead of his time.  I belive that Bruce would be too old to take part in modern day MMA, if he were still alive.  Remember Bruce never fought in tournaments, but he trained many champions.  I belive bruce realized that even tournaments were limited, still sport.  Many MMA's are still sport, and are limited.   

I belive bruce would have kept his training methods reality based, and would have explored grappling more indepth, as he continuded to evolve.  Dan Inosanto, has said that Bruce researched Grappling, but in training they would not contest the ground grappling.  In todays world people contest ground holds,
and fight through basic concepts, Exaples are BJJ, Sambo ect.  Keep in mind Bruce was ahead of his time and probably would have explored other martial options.  Keep in  mind, Bruce was a very determined person, and would have continued to seek the truth, to explore and experiment.  I belive it is the individual, and not the art that make a person great,  but I do not belive he would have been the greatest ever, there is always someone better out there, but through proper training, research and determination, each person can reach their total potential.  Bruce would have found his total potential as a martial artist, and this is something very few could say.   Bruce Lee would have continued to be a leading influence with in the martial community. 

Just One man's opinion


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## cubankenpo

Hi everybody
When u speak bout the really possibilities of Bruce in these times, first u  have to remember some things
1-In these times he would b older than sixties,,,so u cant compare times
2-Bruce was very intelligent, he was a person who always b reading, thinking, innovating and training,,he was ahaed his generation
3-Real fighting is not a competition, UFC is a good competition but u cant kick groin,use a finger jab to eyes, to break a knee or elbow and Bruce used those kind of fighting to win
In these times he were got better the Martial Art,,he was a great fighter and a great Martial Artist
Joe


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## sealth

well first let me say that the ufc ,k-1,pride and all the others are not real fighting .there are so many things they dont have to worry about.as someone else said bruce lee would not have gotten into the ring because of such rules.i dont think any of these so called world champs would stand a chane against bruce lee in a real street fight. to anwser the question ,i think he would have been one of the top fighters in todays competitions


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## wayofhandandfoot

when it comes to Bruce Lee i don't think that he would do something like ufc or sport comp. he always talked about him being a martial artists. eye gouges, knee, groin kicks and etc. he would be out of his element if you strip those options from him. his first line of attack was the finger jab to the eyes and knee kick. And him being close to 70 this would only emphasize his feeling of martial art not sport. 

I don't think he considered himself a tough guy even in his prime. i remember that interviewer asked if he could break such and such amount of boards and he said jokingly that he would probably break his arms and legs. 

live, dead, sport, art Bruce Lee is the man!


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## jst

I've read debates about Bruce Lee in the UFC quite a few times. There are 2 variables to consider weight and age. 

Bruce would be up in his years (even in the early days of UFC), but I think he would have his own camp like Greg Jackson and Pat Miletich.

If you ignore age, and just look at Bruce Lee's weight, he is about 20 pounds off of UFC's lightest division. I'm not sure Bruce Lee would feel comfortable adding that much weight; maybe he would, maybe he wouldn't. Since money does "make the world go around", I would think that the payday for Bruce Lee and the UFC would be so much, that the UFC would open up the Bantamweight class.

In my opinion if Bruce Lee were still here, we would have even more movies (maybe still today) and though JKD is great, it would have been even better.


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## Em MacIntosh

He would be like water.


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## achilles95

Troy Ostapiw/Canada said:


> This question has been debated for 30 years, and I think it is safe to say that Bruce Lee revolutionized the Martial Arts, and was ahead of his time. I belive that Bruce would be too old to take part in modern day MMA, if he were still alive. Remember Bruce never fought in tournaments, but he trained many champions. I belive bruce realized that even tournaments were limited, still sport. Many MMA's are still sport, and are limited.
> 
> I belive bruce would have kept his training methods reality based, and would have explored grappling more indepth, as he continuded to evolve. Dan Inosanto, has said that Bruce researched Grappling, but in training they would not contest the ground grappling. In todays world people contest ground holds,
> and fight through basic concepts, Exaples are BJJ, Sambo ect. Keep in mind Bruce was ahead of his time and probably would have explored other martial options. Keep in mind, Bruce was a very determined person, and would have continued to seek the truth, to explore and experiment. I belive it is the individual, and not the art that make a person great, but I do not belive he would have been the greatest ever, there is always someone better out there, but through proper training, research and determination, each person can reach their total potential. Bruce would have found his total potential as a martial artist, and this is something very few could say. Bruce Lee would have continued to be a leading influence with in the martial community.
> 
> Just One man's opinion



Well said.


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