# Kyusho, Dim Mak, Meridians and Points



## Makalakumu (Jun 3, 2007)

There has been a lot of obfuscation in regards to striking vital points of the body.  Many people who practice this, reference points by using the traditional chinese medicine points for accupuncture and accupressure.  I am curious as to how historical this approach is.  Is this a new, "invented", way of looking at kyusho, or is this how the old masters really practiced kyusho?  What evidence is there that supports that they did use a methodology that was linked to TMC and how far back does this evidence go?  Can it be traced back to the very creators of the karate kata themselves?  Were these points specifically addressed by the creators of the kata so that the kata specifically showed them?


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## Nobody (Jun 3, 2007)

_Is this a new, "invented", way of looking at kyusho, or is this how the old masters really practiced kyusho?_  I think the best person you could ask is Taiki Oyata. 


_What evidence is there that supports that they did use a methodology that was linked to TMC and how far back does this evidence go?_  They use the same name an point location for each point an they use the same enegry flow. 


_Can it be traced back to the very creators of the karate Kata themselves?_ 
I believe it can cause Oyata trained with some very famous martial artist that taught him.  The fact he uses the Kanji an the letter names to study how an what something means is a strong point in knowing if it came from what source.  The fact that the same approach is used even in Goju Ryu an Pangainoon an Uichi Ryu might give one open pause.


_Were these points specifically addressed by the creators of the Kata so that the Kata specifically showed them?_
No, cause it is still a gross physical movement. That is in a certain area of the body as a whole that cause slightly more damage.

Taika Oyata lives an teaches in Independence Kansas City area.
http://www.kushu.com/mo.html


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## Makalakumu (Jun 4, 2007)

Nobody said:


> I think the best person you could ask is Taiki Oyata.


 
Oyata Sensei has proven to be a legitimate authority on the subject, but there are a lot of other "masters" out there who claim to know this stuff.  Further, they all have in common this link with TCM.  Without going and actually training with a person, how can you tell if one methodology is fradulent and another is not?



> They use the same name an point location for each point an they use the same enegry flow.


 
Why is this?  Where is the actual historical link between kyusho and TCM?



> I believe it can cause Oyata trained with some very famous martial artist that taught him. The fact he uses the Kanji an the letter names to study how an what something means is a strong point in knowing if it came from what source. The fact that the same approach is used even in Goju Ryu and Pangainoon an Uichi Ryu might give one open pause.


 
This is very interesting.  Have you trained in either Ryu Te, Goju, or Uechi?  How would you compare their methodology and usage of TCM in this respect?

_



Were these points specifically addressed by the creators of the Kata so that the Kata specifically showed them?

No, cause it is still a gross physical movement. That is in a certain area of the body as a whole that cause slightly more damage.
		
Click to expand...

_ 
I'm a tad surprised by this.  When I practice certain kata, I get the feeling that certain points were obviously targeted by the creator.  I'm wondering if there is any evidence that this could have been done on purpose.

If you are correct and the points were not specifically targeted, then where did kyusho come from?  Was it added later?


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## Nobody (Jun 4, 2007)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> This is very interesting. Have you trained in either Ryu Te, Goju, or Uechi? How would you compare their methodology and usage of TCM in this respect?


 
I studied for about 5 years Goju Ryu,  several people i meet through tournament/work what not, we would talk they would tell me about Oyata's approach an that it contained certain structure training based on what i said before.  This is a common method that many out there have used to develop a diagnose mind set for easy use an development in most of the health thing an as i said several karate.  It does help to understand what is being talked about with the point when you use that method. 

Pangai-noon karate is what the other three style have been said to come from Goju, Uechi, Ryu Kyu Kempo.  That is also just a word of mouth thing.  



			
				upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Why is this? Where is the actual historical link between kyusho and TCM?



On the whole i think this is left to the pasted an not likely to be understood or brought to light unless like i said you talk to Oyata an the few that have brought this to America.  Define there teacher maybe they all had the same teacher at some point. 

Check each link related to Oyata find out who his teacher would have been there are several description of his life on the net so i am sure they have put that out there. 

A lot of what i have put in the other post is based on just my have studied with certain people an we exchanging ideas an thought.  Also, know that there are a lot of people that would brake from Oyata'a organization at certain point do to some very specific thing Oyata would do when changing name of the style.  This would cause certain student to leave an not return and i mean his highest ranking students at that time.




			
				upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> If you are correct and the points were not specifically targeted, then where did kyusho come from? Was it added later?


 
By gross movement they are not all that specific an they would have had more of a acupressure effect to the point that acupuncture point the acupuncture point not quiet as painful as the acupressure points an would require greater force to get to so it is a gross movement.  The reason i think that you will have time defining this as historical is more do to that in no way did Oyata ever say he trained in TCM or anything.  If there is an enrollment into a school for any of the known teachers of Oyata or himself than you would be able to find out, but i doubt it.  looking for historical knowledge from martial artist is not the most acurate place to go.  This will put on something in the past which in China an in Japan public record is anything relating to travel an enrollment an area of origin of the persons family an business are easy to find.  Also unlike in america they have to first fill out a travel thing in the country of Japan an Okinawa an China before they can up an go to another state or area this lasted until right around 1920 in some cases.


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## thetruth (Jun 5, 2007)

As far as using tcm points for knockouts etc, all martial arts use them.  HOWEVER any traditional art doesn't  describe the points and their effect on each other when teaching self defence.  They practice their kata and within this is all of the points etc and self defence.  All of the intellectualisation of this came from Dillman in order to market himself and knock outs etc.  This can still be seen in all of the off shoots from him such as Kyusho International. This is a very hit and miss way of practicing kyusho and has no links to the original arts.
Cheers
Sam:asian:


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## Makalakumu (Jun 5, 2007)

thetruth said:


> As far as using tcm points for knockouts etc, all martial arts use them. HOWEVER any traditional art doesn't describe the points and their effect on each other when teaching self defence. They practice their kata and within this is all of the points etc and self defence. All of the intellectualisation of this came from Dillman in order to market himself and knock outs etc. This can still be seen in all of the off shoots from him such as Kyusho International. This is a very hit and miss way of practicing kyusho and has no links to the original arts.
> Cheers
> Sam:asian:


 
I guess this is another question of mine, something that all of the questions probe at.  Dillman teaches this intellectualist esoteric beast of a system when it comes to kyusho and nobody who has done it in a traditional art has any respect for it.  There is an esoteric side of this that extends into the traditional arts, however.  I'm wondering about this and whether there are any parrellels.


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## thetruth (Jun 5, 2007)

upnorthkyosa said:


> I guess this is another question of mine, something that all of the questions probe at.  Dillman teaches this intellectualist esoteric beast of a system when it comes to kyusho and nobody who has done it in a traditional art has any respect for it.  There is an esoteric side of this that extends into the traditional arts, however.  I'm wondering about this and whether there are any parrellels.



I'm sure there are parallels as there are only so many ways to interpret a kata BUT having said that the ways such things are meant to be done as per the kata and there is far more to the technique than just hitting the points in a certain order such as stance, the position of your assailant etc.  The dillman guys tend to just have pulled random techniques out of the katas that they see and using the cycle of destruction etc look for series of strikes to achieve a KO.  Each to their own but traditional the are not and practising pressure points and other energy type stuff incorrectly can be harmful to the kyusho (or who is appying the technique) practitioner.

Cheers
Sam:asian:


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## Nobody (Jun 5, 2007)

Oyata is Dillmans teacher you do know that right!


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## Nobody (Jun 5, 2007)

Nobody said:


> Oyata is Dillmans teacher you do know that right!


 
That is a fact.  100 percent sure on that know for a fact that he studied an use to meet with Oyata in the 1980's.:jediduel:


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## thetruth (Jun 6, 2007)

Nobody said:


> That is a fact.  100 percent sure on that know for a fact that he studied an use to meet with Oyata in the 1980's.:jediduel:



Absolute crap!!!!!!    It is well known that Dillman showed up to about 6 Oyata seminars with a video camera.  Watched the videos at home and started smacking people in his lounge room (his wife was the first to KO someone) slowly developing what became know as the DILLMAN method of pressure point fighting.  Dillman started using the name Ryukyu Kempo that Oyata had named the art he was teaching in America. Oyata wanted nothing to do with Dillman so he changed his arts name to Ryu Te which he then trademarked so George (or anyone) couldn't use that.  I don't know if he is still on here but Robert Rousellot (spelling?) who has regularly posted in martial talk in the past will be able to tell you in far more detail. 

Cheers
Sam:asian:


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## Nobody (Jun 6, 2007)

Greg told me that Dillman Studied directly from Oyata an when Oyata heard that Dillman was trying to develop his books an thing that Oyata than to that personal an choose to say he had never had any contact with the Dillman.  If you look at the way Oyata an Dillman teach the bunkia you will see it is the same thing.


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## thetruth (Jun 6, 2007)

You will find if you choose to research this further that Dillman did not at any point study under Oyata.  You will also find that the way Dillman and anyone of his lineage teach pressure points is entirely different to the way any one of Japanese/Okinawan lineage teach that kind of fighting.

Cheers
Sam:asian:


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## Makalakumu (Jun 6, 2007)

Okay.  This is where I just need someone to come clean and explain how the two are different.  I started another thread on this, but really didn't get too much response.  

Dillman has this method of striking points.  Many of his students claim that it is just like Oyata.  Many of Oyata's students claim that there are differences.  People who I know personally, who have gone to seminars by both have said that they are very similar.

I suppose the devil is in the details.

Here's the one thing that I'm guessing at...Dillman's method takes the Oyata method and adds a layer of complexity on it that is not needed.  He adds a bunch of esoteric stuff that really adds nothing to the effectiveness of the original method itself.

Thoughts?


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## DavidCC (Jun 6, 2007)

upnorthkyosa said:


> Dillman's method takes the Oyata method and adds a layer of complexity on it that is not needed. He adds a bunch of esoteric stuff that really adds nothing to the effectiveness of the original method itself.
> 
> Thoughts?


 
I have some experience with KI, which came out of Dillman's group.  I also have some video of Oyata teaching and demonstrating.  And I would have to say that not only does it add nothing to the effectiveness, I have to wonder if it didn't in fact diminish it.

I have a friend who is not in Oyats's school but does know him, and form what I have heard form him, GD was never a student of Oyata.  "thetruth" is telling it the way I heard it, too.


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## Nobody (Jun 6, 2007)

Look the best way is to talk to Oyata he is not a hard person to talk to an i have talked to him be for he says don't lump him in with Dillman an certain schools that used to be under his main branch are now saying any mention of Dillman is just not a good thing.

Back on point Qyata point attack thing is not just striking certain point it is about both how to develop the understanding of reading a person's physical approach.  I still think that one of Oyata's teacher was probably into Chinese Medicine.  Cause Oyata will literally list point an thoughts about the point when he explains.

_p.s. Greg i know is way up in the organization an maybe i misunderstood what he was saying about Dillman cause they make the point Dillman new Oyata on both a personal level like invited to his house an fact he had only copies of videos that he had made at those time an in certain seminars.  I could have misheard what Greg said..  An Greg is probably one of Oyata's senior students.  An even the business that a person named (what was it, Ted) runs RYUKYU martial arts supplies something they are a martial arts store an he also anymore says we don't have anything to do with Dillman an he is not a good thing to mention around Oyata.  Excuse me for causing the thread to disrell an go way astray of what is important. (i hope this does not cause grief for those i have mentioned.  Again very nice people to talk to.) _ 

Oyata is a nice person he would gladly explain what is going on with why he uses points to identify the pressure points that are used in his system are identifiable in TCM being the same name an directional number on the energy thing.   Oyata is actually very forthright in most response's about his style an is easy to talk to as it goes.


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## thetruth (Jun 7, 2007)

As mentioned by upnorthkyosa Dillman's method adds too much complexity to the application of pressure points that is absolutely unnecessary.  There is a local Okinawan Goju Ryu instructor near where I live who learnt off one of Miyagi's top students and trained with Miyagi himself.  He knows no TCM at all and cannot name any meridians or specific points but I tell you this; when he applies his kata to self defense they are well and truly there and are far more effective than anything I have felt personally of any highly ranked students of George.  This is because there is no mumbo jumbo about this or that point.  Do your self defense as your kata says and BAM it will work.  George developed his way of teaching as a marketing tool to sell his videos (he became a millionaire off those crap videos) and attract people to seminars in the 80's.  It is not necessary to know the names of points to apply them in self defense if there is proper lineage to your karate and the kata are unchanged.  If the techniques out of the kata are done as they are supposed to be done not only will the correct points be struck but your stance and the stance/position of your attacker will be correct inorder to produce the best result.  I guarantee if you just have to worry about practicing your kata rather than this point, that point, this angle, that direction, this type of strike/rub/vibration etc etc etc your self defense will be far superior and you will develop quicker.  You may not sound as intelligent as a Dillman guy but at least your self defense won't be hit and miss and you won't have to make up excuses as Dillman does for his ***** not working.

Cheers
Sam:asian:


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## thetruth (Jun 7, 2007)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-x4iJM2aU4&mode=related&search=

Heres a video of George. Watch it until the end.  He can't KO anyone but his own students.  He has many excuses about why it doesn't work.

Cheers
Sam:asian:


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## Makalakumu (Jun 7, 2007)

thetruth said:


> As mentioned by upnorthkyosa Dillman's method adds too much complexity to the application of pressure points that is absolutely unnecessary. There is a local Okinawan Goju Ryu instructor near where I live who learnt off one of Miyagi's top students and trained with Miyagi himself. He knows no TCM at all and cannot name any meridians or specific points but I tell you this; when he applies his kata to self defense they are well and truly there and are far more effective than anything I have felt personally of any highly ranked students of George. This is because there is no mumbo jumbo about this or that point. Do your self defense as your kata says and BAM it will work. George developed his way of teaching as a marketing tool to sell his videos (he became a millionaire off those crap videos) and attract people to seminars in the 80's. It is not necessary to know the names of points to apply them in self defense if there is proper lineage to your karate and the kata are unchanged. If the techniques out of the kata are done as they are supposed to be done not only will the correct points be struck but your stance and the stance/position of your attacker will be correct inorder to produce the best result. I guarantee if you just have to worry about practicing your kata rather than this point, that point, this angle, that direction, this type of strike/rub/vibration etc etc etc your self defense will be far superior and you will develop quicker. You may not sound as intelligent as a Dillman guy but at least your self defense won't be hit and miss and you won't have to make up excuses as Dillman does for his ***** not working.
> 
> Cheers
> Sam:asian:


 
This has always been my approach, although I do use the TCM names of points to referrence the body in class.  Dillman has been done to death, especially in this particular forum of MT, and he has done himself to death with videos like the one you posted.

I'm curious as to your comment about the guy who practiced goju.  So, you are saying that the points will be there if you practice your kata whether you like them to or not.  This implies that they were designed this way does it not?  

I suppose some of the kata creators, when they traveled to China, could have learned some TCM along the way...


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## DavidCC (Jun 7, 2007)

upnorthkyosa said:


> So, you are saying that the points will be there if you practice your kata whether you like them to or not. This implies that they were designed this way does it not?
> 
> I suppose some of the kata creators, when they traveled to China, could have learned some TCM along the way...


 
As far as I can tell, this is the theory that most of the work being done by Pantazzi and Corn within KI is based on.  Analysis of traditional kata.


On the other hand, I have worked with an internal kung-fu guy (yi li quan) and from his perspective, he can project his strike internally where he wants it, to him every spot on your body is a pressure point, and he demonstrated this ability on my own body, it's a whole other level...

-D


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## thetruth (Jun 9, 2007)

upnorthkyosa said:


> This has always been my approach, although I do use the TCM names of points to referrence the body in class.  Dillman has been done to death, especially in this particular forum of MT, and he has done himself to death with videos like the one you posted.
> 
> I'm curious as to your comment about the guy who practiced goju.  So, you are saying that the points will be there if you practice your kata whether you like them to or not.  This implies that they were designed this way does it not?
> 
> I suppose some of the kata creators, when they traveled to China, could have learned some TCM along the way...




I don't know what the originators of Goju or whatever learnt. They may have just developed their kata etc of forms from a chinese art with no specific knowledge of tcm or they could have learnt the points and developed the kata but removed all of the tcm names and mumbo jumbo as they realised that this just detracts from ones ability to learn the kata and self defense out of them(and is totally unnecessary for self defense).

Cheers
Sam:asian:


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## thetruth (Jun 9, 2007)

DavidCC said:


> As far as I can tell, this is the theory that most of the work being done by Pantazzi and Corn within KI is based on.  Analysis of traditional kata.
> 
> 
> On the other hand, I have worked with an internal kung-fu guy (yi li quan) and from his perspective, he can project his strike internally where he wants it, to him every spot on your body is a pressure point, and he demonstrated this ability on my own body, it's a whole other level...
> ...



I have a question.  As far as I am aware Evan Pantazi was a students of George.  George had no lineage to Okinawa. How do you know that the kata Evan and Jim are breaking down are the original traditional kata?  Even if the kata is changed slightly then what they are breaking down is incorrect.  

There is a bit more to correct application of pressure points than just looking at strikes, checking what points are near the strike, checking on the order in the kata and whacking away.  Each to his own though and if you are getting what you want from your style David just keep on punching dude and enjoy it.   

Also I would like to feel this internal kung fu guy as just because you felt doesn't mean anything.  Pressure points tend to work far more often and effectively on the students putting their faith in them.  If this guy can't do this internal business on EVERYONE then it's hit and miss and just more dillmanesque marketing mumbo jumbo.

Lastly just to let you know, I don't train in any art with pressure points any more I did for 7 years and slowly as I woke up the many flaws of the dillman method bacame apparent.  I have spoken to many people since leaving that school and have found that we were not getting the whole picture. 

Cheers
Sam:asian:


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## DavidCC (Jun 11, 2007)

how does anyone know any kata can be traced back to anywhere?

:deadhorse



> George had no lineage to Okinawa


 
Can you prove that?  Googling I can only find this, describing Dillman's pre-pressure-point training, which clearly IS a link to Okinawa.



> *What the book called 'Martial Arts, Traditions History And People* has to say about George Dillman:
> They say that George Dillman began his karate training in 1960 under Robert Tieu an Okinawan Kempo stylist in Fort Knox, KY. He received his black belt in this style from Charles Cant. The book says that he has studied Issinryu with Harry Smith and Shorin-ryu with James Coffman with his Chinese systems coming form Daniel Pai. In 1973 George Dillman was named as one the country's top kata competitors by 'Official Karate Magazine'.


 

<sigh> you are so disagreeable...



> Also I would like to feel this internal kung fu guy as just because you felt doesn't mean anything. Pressure points tend to work far more often and effectively on the students putting their faith in them. If this guy can't do this internal business on EVERYONE then it's hit and miss and just more dillmanesque marketing mumbo jumbo.


 
I would love for you to feel it.  LOVE IT. ROFL but not for the reasons you might think LOL

nothing works on everyone, shouldn't you know that by now??  But you are blinded by this issue, clearly. I said my friend DIDN'T hit any pressure points.  However it is much easier to disagree with something other than what I actually wrote so go for it.


However if you want more information on this (which I don't think you really do) you can ask my friend's teacher, who is a member here, Pete Starr, I think his user name is pstarr.  Or any "internal" expert, I would think, I don't believe this is unique to these guys...

let me leave you with this: can you do everything you train on everyone?  No?  Then you are a dillmanesque mumbo-jumbo too!!! :2xbird:


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## thetruth (Jun 12, 2007)

DavidCC said:


> how does anyone know any kata can be traced back to anywhere?
> 
> :deadhorse
> 
> ...



I'm not disagreeable on most things but I can tell you regardless of who George trained with in America his pressure points theory is something he came up with on bits of information he gathered himself.  He wasn't taught this information via any sort of student teacher relationship.  

Also, my old instructor was a 5th dan under George and we learnt the versions of kata that George taught.  When my friends Goju instructor (he trained for 5 or 6 years in Okinawa and goes back for gradings) saw these not only were many of the techniques unlike anything he had seen in his time over there but the parts that were the same had totally the wrong emphasis and timing.   Lastly, competition kata performance is irrelevant to this argument as the only thing that is required at that level is that the kata LOOKS good and perhaps this is why the emphasis and what not is wrong.

Also, maybe the internal kung fu dude can do his stuff but just because you believe it does doesn't make it so.  Like I said pressure points/energy stuff works a whole lot better on the students learning it. My old instructors top students fell and danced around like maniacs but when he did it on anyone who wasn't sucked in it was either hugely diminished or it didn't work.  

As long as you believe that you can use what you are learning and have faith in your instructors keep on training.  It really doesn't matter what a majority of the martial arts world thinks of Dillman and his affiliates, just that the people training believe in what they are learning.  I've seen enough of that stuff to have formed my opinion (obviously).  

There are enough posts on here about George and pressure points and they all take a similar vain to this one.  Someone asks about pressure points, a kyusho guy pipes up about George or KI then a majority disagree with the kyusho guy.  If kyusho people want to discuss kyusho without detractors then go to http://www.kyusho.com and join the forum.  I'm sure Evan and Mark and the guys would love to help you.  I've been kicked out of there 3 times just for asking questions and making a point.  One time I didn't last a day.  I have no issue with Evan or Mark, I have met them both and they are both nice guys, I just disagree with the way that people of Dillman lineage practice pressure points.

By the way, whats with the little smiley flipping the bird, it just makes you look like a tool.

Cheers
Sam:asian:


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## DavidCC (Jun 12, 2007)

Maybe I was a littel grumpy, sorry about the emoticon.  

But you've made your point (and made it and made it) now can you let us have our discussion about the topic of the thread?  You can easily start a thread about how wacko we are for having this thread...


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## Makalakumu (Jun 12, 2007)

DavidCC said:


> Maybe I was a littel grumpy, sorry about the emoticon.
> 
> But you've made your point (and made it and made it) now can you let us have our discussion about the topic of the thread? You can easily start a thread about how wacko we are for having this thread...


 
Hey guys, enough about Dillman.  His training is relevent to this topic, but all that really needs to be said is that he had some formal training and he also figured out (or just made up) alot of stuff on his own.  The topic of this thread could actually solve a lot of the questions that are being raised about the validity of this approach.  Namely, how much does TCM influence kyusho bunkai in Okinawan Kata.  

Dillman tends to really get into the esoteric aspects of TCM, but guess what, so does Erle Montaigue, who is a rather famous teacher of dim mak techniques.  The difference between Erle and Dillman is that Erle teaches Tai Chi, so the connection to TCM is easier to see.  However, it still could be asked whether or not that was originally part of the system though.  

Oyata uses it, but not to the degree either of the two above use it, as far as I know.

And some karateka do not ever refer to TCM when they perform bunkai.  

The end result of this is that we have a wide spectrum, but no real explanation as to why the spectrum is so wide.  Did Oyata invent this way of doing kyusho or did he learn something that was secret for a long time?  Are there credible sources that show a link between kara-te and TCM?  How can we know if the TCM aspects of kyusho were really part of the original systems?


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## DavidCC (Jun 12, 2007)

Perhaps the Bubishi represents  apretty early transmision of that information from China



> a chinese master was particularly important in this enterprise: Wu Xiangi or Wu Hsien Kuei, best knowed as GOKENKI, a chinese white crane master living in Naha. Gokenki was a close friend of Miyagi, Mabuni, Kyoda, Matayoshi, Hanashiro, Kana Kinjo, and others future masters, and gave instructions to them. Gokenki was a respectful nickname, a title given by the people that means "great ou very honorable master" (this nickname is equivalent to "Ryuryuko"...).
> There is perhaps a significative relation between Gokenki and the Okinawan Bubishi. We know that Miyagi made several trips to China, some of them with Gokenki, that introduces him to some important Quan Fa masters and helped him to find books on chinese martial arts
> 
> ...
> ...


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## loyalonehk (Jun 12, 2007)

If you could ask George Dillman (1) question, what would it be?

%-}


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## thetruth (Jun 13, 2007)

loyalonehk said:


> If you could ask George Dillman (1) question, what would it be?
> 
> %-}



Why do you choose to hand high ranks out to those who've attended a certain amount of seminars rather than have people attend your school and grade the traditional way?   

I know the answer but I'd like to hear his

Cheers
Sam:asian:


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## thetruth (Jun 13, 2007)

Well Miyagi trained in china and bought kata that are unchanged to this day. There are definite links to China and TCM, it's just the way they taught such things in China thats up in the air. Did the Okinawans hide the pp application or was it withheld?  Did the Chinese martial artists not deem it necessary to teach the intellectual side of tcm when teaching combatives?  Did the Chinese martial artists that the Okinawans learnt off even know the tcm side in the first place?   Some questions I don't have the answer to.  

Also Erle Montague produces some of the most humorous videos on the market.  He is not as highly regarded as people believe.  

Cheers
Sam:asian:


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## loyalonehk (Jun 13, 2007)

Thanks for the reply Sam.  I believe I may be able to guess your answere ($).  I have heard that before about other systems.  It usually occurs when a high ranked person conects with another (similar) style/system (I do not agree with this)  If the individual does not have the deap roots (put in the time) then I believe the rank to be an honorary one at best and can weaken the core (correct me if I am on the wrong path here), however I believe and hope there is more depth to the answere and hope to bring back a confirmation to my belief of what the answere may be (more to come after the weekend).  For the record I do not have rank in DKI.

I am attending Wally Jay's 90th B-day celebration this weekend in Oakland with some personal friends.  One of the VIP guests and seminar teachers is George Dillman.  This will be my first time ever meeting Mr. Dillman and after reading through this thread I was curious what some people may like to ask him.  I have met Dr Ed Lake (one of Mr Dillmans top students) several years ago and I am friends with Mr Dillmans top guy here on the West coast, Master Mark Gerry.  In addition I have also corresponded with Erle Montague via e-mail briefly from time to time.  I am a true believer in in TCM and have also had the honor of enjoying Dr Vince Blacks company from time to time over the years.  

I will not bad mouth anyone here on the public forum but will try to offer any positive influence about the any and all arts in general.  They all have a Yin and Yang side to them.  I am one to critisize in private and praise in public.  Please, dont look at this post as if I am bragging or name dropping.  I do not claim to be a subject expert but I have been fortunate in my journey to meet a few of the top names in MA's.  I hope to bring to the table any relevant constructive insight from my experiences.  

I too have developed my own opinions, but you know what they say about opinions.    I value my ability to listen more than speak at this time.  I have studied, felt and applied some of the PPT applications over the years and I do believe they have there place.  To me its about becoming more precise, efficient and effective in your application of techniques weather it be healing or hurting.  It also adds considerable depth to your abilities.  In the end however, fighting is fighting.  The more you know and understand about the human body and how it reacts/responds to certain strikes the more you put the odds of "Surviving the Day" in your favor.  Correct and reality based application in your training is paramount for survival in combat, whether on or off the battlefield.  It's all just another piece of the pie... 

Repsectfully,
Dean


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## Makalakumu (Jun 13, 2007)

loyalonehk said:


> Thanks for the reply Sam. I am attending Wally Jay's 90th B-day celebration this weekend in Oakland with some personal friends. One of the guests and seminar teachers is George Dillman. This will be my first time ever meeting Mr. Dillman and after reading through this thread I was curious what some people may like to ask him. I have met Dr Ed Lake (one of Mr Dillmans top students) several years ago and I am friends with Mr Dillmans top guy here on the West coast, Master Mark Gerry. In addition I have also corresponded with Erle Montague via e-mail from time to time. I am a true believer in in TCM and have also had the honor of enjoying Dr Vince Blacks company from time to time over the years. I will not bad mouth anyone here on the public forum but will try to offer any positive influence about the any and all arts in general. They all have a Yin and Yang side to them. I am one to critisize in private and praise in public. Please, dont look at this post as if I am bragging or name dropping. I do not claim to be a subject expert but I have been fortunate in my journey to meet a few of the top names in MA's. I hope to bring to the table any relevant constructive insight from my experiences.
> 
> I too have developed my own opinions, but you know what they say about opinions. I value my ability to listen more than speak at this time.
> 
> ...


 
The purpose of this thread isn't to badmouth anyone, its to look at the traditional way of doing kyusho and figure out how TCM worked its way into it.  We are trying to discuss how kyusho developed in traditional arts.  Was it pre-existing and TCM was plastered on top of it or did kyusho spring directly from knowledge of TCM?  

Dillman's method of kyusho is relevant to this thread.  Discussing where it came from will help us understand the original questions.  Dillman's people say that Kyusho sprung directly from knowledge of TCM.  How do they know that?  Are they a reliable source?  Answering those questions demands that we start looking at how they learned what they learned and from the information shared in this thread and from the information that is common in other places on the net, its pretty apparent that they are not the best source for information on kyusho.  They certainly have some peices of knowledge, but the system isn't a traditional kara-te system.


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## loyalonehk (Jun 13, 2007)

upnorthkyosa said:


> The purpose of this thread isn't to badmouth anyone, its to look at the traditional way of doing kyusho and figure out how TCM worked its way into it. We are trying to discuss how kyusho developed in traditional arts. Was it pre-existing and TCM was plastered on top of it or did kyusho spring directly from knowledge of TCM?
> 
> Dillman's method of kyusho is relevant to this thread. Discussing where it came from will help us understand the original questions. Dillman's people say that Kyusho sprung directly from knowledge of TCM. How do they know that? Are they a reliable source? Answering those questions demands that we start looking at how they learned what they learned and from the information shared in this thread and from the information that is common in other places on the net, its pretty apparent that they are not the best source for information on kyusho. They certainly have some peices of knowledge, but the system isn't a traditional kara-te system.


 
Understood, thank you.  I will see if I can return with some insight to add to the discussion after this weekend.  

Didnt mean to get off topic...


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## thetruth (Jun 14, 2007)

A couple of things.Firstly Dean,  I believe at best if a blackbelt from 1 art goes to another instructor then the most they should do is give them a brownbelt and have them learn the entire system requirements for black belt and sit the black belt test(1st dan) just like everyone else.  From there they can progress up the dan ranks the same as everyone.  My old instructor went over and lived with George for a few months. He left here a 2nd dan and came home a 5th dan (this was before I started there).   All of the seminar black belts George has(there are many) graded are considered real ranks with those given 7th dan by George titled 'Grandmasters'. 

I started a separate thread on this but I'll also mention it here.  The reason Dillman's name comes up so often here is that the term 'kyusho jitsu' is a name coined by George and used only by those with some direct or indirect affiliation/link to him.  The word kyusho isn't used by Japanese or Okinawan arts to describe pressure points because it actually refers to vital points such as the eyes and throat not pressure points.

Back on track
I've not read it but does the Bubishi contain information of what exactly was passed on from the Chinese to the Okinawans?  I'm not sure we'll ever know exactly what part the Chinese passed on and what part the Okinawans developed themselves.

Cheers
Sam:asian:


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## loyalonehk (Jun 14, 2007)

Thank you for the clarification Sam.  Very interesting, good thread by the way.  

Cheers,
Dean


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## thetruth (Jun 18, 2007)

Loyalonehk, how was Wally Jay's birthday?????


Cheers
Sam:asian:


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## loyalonehk (Jun 18, 2007)

thetruth said:


> Loyalonehk, how was Wally Jay's birthday?????
> 
> 
> Cheers
> Sam:asian:


 
GREAT!!!  Prof Wally Jay looks great and should easily see 100 yrs  :ultracool

At the banquet dinner party there were around 500 people of which there was well over 100 GM's from all over.  Goodtimes!

The Seminar went well also - training from 0800-1800.  Then party time at Master Mark Gerry's home with a full house of great people.

Here's a pic that my friend sent me.







  I'm the short one with the stash...

I did take the time to ask George Dillman about TCM and his system.  He told me (not verbatem) that about 20yrs ago he went to train, once again with Hohan Soken, HS took him in and told him, something like, "Now I show you the real stuff - There are no blocks in Kata!"  The delay in sharing this with his student, George Dillman, had a lot to do with WWII and the trust factors, etc.  And per my conversation with GD thats how it all came about.  You guys know the rest...  

Anyway, busy day and I gotta get back to business...  I'll check back later tonite.  

Respectfully,
Dean


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## DavidCC (Jun 19, 2007)

It would have to be a bit more than 20 years ago because Soken has been dead for 25.

but I know how when we get old time stretches out...


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## loyalonehk (Jun 19, 2007)

DavidCC said:


> It would have to be a bit more than 20 years ago because Soken has been dead for 25.
> 
> but I know how when we get old time stretches out...


 
Just the messenger here :lurk:

It was a casual conversation and I dont claim to be an expert...  Thats what he told me.  

Mr. Dillman also claims to have proven that Chi exists during a rescent study at a hospital (forgot which one he mentioned).  But he says he was allowed to kill people and then bring em back during this study.:drinkbeer

Oh how I love to add fuel to the fire...  Peace

Here's a pic of me as Master Gerry's Uke - 




George Dillman, Mark Shuey, Wally Jay and Leon Jay  (seated)


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## DavidCC (Jun 19, 2007)

no problem  It probably feels like "only" 20 years LOL time flies when you are having fun.


he is probably using very (very very) loose definitions of "kill" and "allow" hahaha


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## thetruth (Jun 20, 2007)

loyalonehk said:


> Just the messenger here :lurk:
> 
> It was a casual conversation and I dont claim to be an expert...  Thats what he told me.
> 
> ...



If George said kill he above all else wants people to believe he can kill people with Chi.  As if a hospital would allow such a thing and what sort of moron would allow themselves to be involved?  The only person George is going to harm messing with Chi the way he does is himself.  That video I posted earlier in this post says it all about the sort of chi George and the likes practice.   

Cheers
Sam:asian:


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## loyalonehk (Jun 20, 2007)

thetruth said:


> If George said kill he above all else wants people to believe he can kill people with Chi. As if a hospital would allow such a thing and what sort of moron would allow themselves to be involved? The only person George is going to harm messing with Chi the way he does is himself. That video I posted earlier in this post says it all about the sort of chi George and the likes practice.
> 
> Cheers
> Sam:asian:


 
Cheers Sam,  
I'm moving on...  Thanks for the chat and I'll keep on reading.  Im back at work now that my vacation is over.  

Take care and I'll be posting later somewhere on MT.  %-}

Dean


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## thetruth (Jun 21, 2007)

loyalonehk said:


> Cheers Sam,
> I'm moving on...  Thanks for the chat and I'll keep on reading.  Im back at work now that my vacation is over.
> 
> Take care and I'll be posting later somewhere on MT.  %-}
> ...



No worries.  It was fun. You did bring up the killing with chi thing though so obviously your moving on is only a recent thing as you finished your last post with how you love to add fuel to the fire.  It isn't fuel really as I don't see it as any different to anything George has done in the past 25 years. It's all about marketing.  If he could kill me with chi and I could be bought back I would streak across the MCG(Australia's largest sporting ground that holds 110,000 people) on grand final day.  It is just untrue.  If people say things as you did here and I believe it to be nonsense I will say just that.

Have fun.
Cheers
Sam:asian:


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## turbo1975 (Jul 18, 2007)

Okay a couple of things I read during the tread.

1.  Evan and KI don't focus on Kata interpretation or TCM.  Althought they work it personally, this is not a requirement of KI training.
2.  Dillman wasnt allowed to kill and bring back...he claims someone died and he brought them back.  

I dont think anyone actually answered the question about Kyusho's origin.___ Many believe that dim mak was created centuries ago by the same man who is believed to have developed the original tai chi form. Some have postulated that this form contained the founder's methods of attacking the most dangerous dim mak points. According to legend, this knowledge spread rapidly and influenced the development of many Chinese martial arts. These martial arts then influenced the ancient Okinawan martial art called karate. It is believed by many that the traditional katas of the Okinawan martial arts also contain the secrets of striking the dim mak points. This is interesting because Okinawan karate has had a major impact on the martial arts of Korea and Japan. Thus, it is conceivable that the traditional katas of these other martial arts could also contain the secrets of dim mak.

3.  I would say who cares where dillman got his training...does it work?  (personally don't care)


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## Master Dave (Jul 20, 2007)

The story I was told was by a former student of the oyata camp who now is my student is that when oyata first started out he wanted a well known American martial artist to help him get known over here...he chose Dillman however the union didnt last long, Dillman took Oyata's methods and ran with them seeking $$$$$.   True or not I wasnt there. but makes sense to me....now dillman has gone over the edge with chi balls....and no touch knock outs...just cant take him seriously.  Pressure points are in kata its apparent by the angle and direction of the strikes witin the kata's if we see them as strikes and not blocks as they wanted us to believe.The face of the martial arts took on a new look at the turn of the 20th century a new watered down look. China had a strong trade with Okinawa...they traded much more then goods...the theory of the 5 elements are apparent in kata as well. 

Dave


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