# Talyunbong and/or Powair water filled heavy bag



## mastercole (Mar 16, 2012)

I am curious if any of the Taekwondo practitioners here use a talyunbong, or in-ground makiwara post to develop the straight punch. If so

- what is your technique (s) of movement
- how many years have you trained with this tool
- how much do you feel you have learned from using it
- how important do you think it is
- if you teach, do you teach it to your students
- if you have used it for many years, how as your approach to using the tool changed

Also, if you do the same training on a Powair style water filled heavy bag, no foam, just water right to the skin of the bag, how does it compare to the talyunbong?


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## dancingalone (Mar 17, 2012)

mastercole said:


> I am curious if any of the Taekwondo practitioners here use a talyunbong, or in-ground makiwara post to develop the straight punch. If so
> 
> - what is your technique (s) of movement
> - how many years have you trained with this tool
> ...




I have trained extensively with a makiwara, but it came through my study of karate not taekwondo.  Please ignore my answers if they aren't applicable for your purposes.

- what is your technique (s) of movement
Not sure I understand the question, but I have trained a variety of strikes including punches, haito, shuto, and kicks.  From my perspective, it's probably best used for building precision and focus with the seiken fist though.

- how many years have you trained with this tool
20+ years

- how important do you think it is
Very important for karateka.  For taekwondoin, I do wonder.  Certainly I was never exposed to one in my initial study of TKD.  We used heavy bags, focus mits, and kicking shields instead then.

- how much do you feel you have learned from using it
Tons.  My sensei likes to say 'no makiwara, no punch'.  It provides immediate feedback on every single punch.  If you don't hit it right on with the knuckles, you will cut your skin badly.  If your punch has no snap to it, the pushback from the post will tell you right away.   If you're just pushing with your punch, the post will feel heavy on your fist.  And of course, it helps you understand rather quickly the relationship between being grounded/rooted and striking hard.

- if you teach, do you teach it to your students
For my karate students, yes.  It's considered a core training tool along with hojo undo exercises and of course Sanchin kata.  

- if you have used it for many years, how as your approach to using the tool changed
I used to think of it as primarily a physical conditioning tool as a younger guy.  Now I'm aware the mental focus it sharpens is just as important.  I liked high repetitions because of the satisfying feedback the makiwara gives.  Now I'm just as pleased if I can quickly step up and fire off 5 good punches.  Obviously once you get to a certain level, it's more about staying honed and you don't need a lot of reps necessarily.

-Also, if you do the same training on a Powair style water filled heavy bag, no foam, just water right to the skin of the bag, how does it compare to the talyunbong?
Never used a "Powair".


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## mastercole (Mar 17, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> I have trained extensively with a makiwara, but it came through my study of karate not taekwondo.  Please ignore my answers if they aren't applicable for your purposes.
> 
> - what is your technique (s) of movement
> Not sure I understand the question, but I have trained a variety of strikes including punches, haito, shuto, and kicks.  From my perspective, it's probably best used for building precision and focus with the seiken fist though.
> ...



Karate and Taekwondo use of the talyunbong/makiwara are the same, what varies is from individual to individual.  Thank you for your detailed reply. I did not expect a lot of replies, if any at all. Most practitioners do not train with the forging post these days. 

My question was narrow and related only to the fore fist straight punch.  As for technique, I was curious about stance, starting position of the hands, angle of the body at rest, angle of the body at impact, angle of the striking and opposing arm at impact, and exactly happens immediately after impact.


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## SahBumNimRush (Mar 17, 2012)

I've contemplated building one for a while now.. . I'm assuming you cannot buy one?  I've seen Makiwara boards, but not the spring loaded ones you post in the ground.


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## dancingalone (Mar 17, 2012)

mastercole said:


> As for technique, I was curious about stance, starting position of the hands, angle of the body at rest, angle of the body at impact, angle of the striking and opposing arm at impact, and exactly happens immediately after impact.



It really depends on the person and style.  Within my line of Goju-ryu karate, we stand in sanchin dachi, the hourglass stance with our shoulders and hips more or less straight ahead.  While there is use of koshi (hips) to create force, it's more of a circular motion than the hip back, hip forward method commonly seen in Shotokan karate.

When I studied Matsubayashi-ryu karate, we stood in a shallow zenkutsu-dachi with the rear shoulder and hip slightly tucked back before snapping forward as part of the punching movement.  It was considered a flaw if your punching shoulder rotated forward so that it is on a different line than the retracting arm side.

In both styles, you ended up square to the target upon the strike and if you were practicing a snap punch, you had to learn the longest interval you could keep contact with the post before it becomes a thrust punch or worse a push with the fist.


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## dancingalone (Mar 17, 2012)

SahBumNimRush said:


> I've contemplated building one for a while now.. . I'm assuming you cannot buy one?  I've seen Makiwara boards, but not the spring loaded ones you post in the ground.



I've never seen one for sale from a standard supplier like Century or AWMA.


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## puunui (Mar 18, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> Tons.  My sensei likes to say 'no makiwara, no punch'.  It provides immediate feedback on every single punch.  If you don't hit it right on with the knuckles, you will cut your skin badly.



GM LEE Won Kuk said "No makiwara, no karate." That was his exact quote. 

Do you feel that having the rice rope around the post is an essential part of the experience, or can softer materials be used for the actual striking surface? For example, could someone substitute a piece of puzzle mat for the rice rope? Why or why not?


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## puunui (Mar 18, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> I've never seen one for sale from a standard supplier like Century or AWMA.



I think most users make their own makiwara, as opposed to buying one. A lot of books have detailed instructions and plans on how to build one.


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## dancingalone (Mar 18, 2012)

puunui said:


> GM LEE Won Kuk said "No makiwara, no karate." That was his exact quote.



That's great.  I have a feeling most older martist artists who have used the makiwara say or have heard something similar from their own teachers and seniors.




puunui said:


> Do you feel that having the rice rope around the post is an essential part of the experience, or can softer materials be used for the actual striking surface? For example, could someone substitute a piece of puzzle mat for the rice rope? Why or why not?



You've got to get to the rope eventually if you think punching absolutely straight on is important.  (I realize a lot of people & styles do not.)  Covering the post with foam or a puzzle mat piece is a lot more forgiving and you just won't get the same visceral feedback.  There's also a mental dimension to the apprehension the rope brings out which I think is a good barrier to surmount.


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## puunui (Mar 18, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> You've got to get to the rope eventually if you think punching absolutely straight on is important.  (I realize a lot of people & styles do not.)  Covering the post with foam or a puzzle mat piece is a lot more forgiving and you just won't get the same visceral feedback.  There's also a mental dimension to the apprehension the rope brings out which I think is a good barrier to surmount.



That used to be the actual 1st Dan test during the 40s, suffering through a year or more of makiwara training, and then showing off that training breaking roofing tiles at your promotion test. How many of us would pass that sort of test today? That was also a reason why children were not awarded dan ranks, because it is not really recommended that children undergo training using the makiwara. It had nothing to do with "maturity", at least not the type people think of today.


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## mastercole (Mar 18, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> That's great.  I have a feeling most older martist artists who have used the makiwara say or have heard something similar from their own teachers and seniors.
> 
> You've got to get to the rope eventually if you think punching absolutely straight on is important.  (I realize a lot of people & styles do not.)  Covering the post with foam or a puzzle mat piece is a lot more forgiving and you just won't get the same visceral feedback.  There's also a mental dimension to the apprehension the rope brings out which I think is a good barrier to surmount.



Do you know other practitioners who have trained with the makiwara as long as you have, or that even train with it at all?


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## Miles (Mar 19, 2012)

I have a talyunbong which GM Park said had too much resistance so I took it down.  I have a diagram he drew up to mount it so that it has the right amount of resistance but need more carpentry skills to build the base.  

No one has used the Powair bag?  I'm curious about them, I've never used it either.  At our dojang, we have a Century wavemaster on one mat and a hanging Everlast bag on another.  Different drills for each.


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## dancingalone (Mar 19, 2012)

mastercole said:


> Do you know other practitioners who have trained with the makiwara as long as you have, or that even train with it at all?



Yes, I became aware of other groups outside my immediate lineage, outside Goju even, who train makiwara consistently when I attended Higaonna Sensei's seminar a number of years ago in Amsterdam.  They're all over the place really - it's not uncommon.

Most serious Okinawan karate people have some degree of exposure to one.  In my opinion, the Naha systems like Goju and Uechi probably tend to work it more than the Shorin-ryu folk.  You can tell right away who has spent a goodly amount of time with it -  the unity of their tsuki method is apparent.


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## Carol (Mar 19, 2012)

Miles said:


> I have a talyunbong which GM Park said had too much resistance so I took it down.  I have a diagram he drew up to mount it so that it has the right amount of resistance but need more carpentry skills to build the base.
> 
> No one has used the Powair bag?  I'm curious about them, I've never used it either.  At our dojang, we have a Century wavemaster on one mat and a hanging Everlast bag on another.  Different drills for each.



Haven't used the Powair.   I read someplace -- might have been here -- that the Powair doesn't have anywhere near the kind of travel that a hanging heavy bag typically does, which I thought was interesting.  Is that due to the weight or style of mounting?

One of my previous schools filled their wavemaster with sand instead of water.  Sand is denser, makes for a heavier bag.


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## SahBumNimRush (Mar 19, 2012)

I don't have any experience with the Powair either, but we do have standing wavemasters (and as Carol suggested we fill ours with sand for both weight and leakage issues)  They work good for speed and technique drills, but I prefer the old hanging heavy bag for serious work.  The Bob's work pretty good too.. .


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## dancingalone (Mar 19, 2012)

SahBumNimRush said:


> I don't have any experience with the Powair either, but we do have standing wavemasters (and as Carol suggested we fill ours with sand for both weight and leakage issues)  They work good for speed and technique drills, but I prefer the old hanging heavy bag for serious work.  The Bob's work pretty good too.. .



Does the sand make the wavemasters hold up better?  In my experience, they're not durable with frequent use and they eventually start leaking water, which is the reason I installed hanging heavy bags at my school.


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## Carol (Mar 19, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> Does the sand make the wavemasters hold up better?  In my experience, they're not durable with frequent use and they eventually start leaking water, which is the reason I installed hanging heavy bags at my school.



I think so.  The water is very forgiving and very moveable.  My old teacher kept the water-filled bags for the kids class for that reason, plus I think the kids had fun with the distinctive 'thunk' they made when they were hit.  The sand doesn't result in as much motion as the water does.

If the sand does leak, there is less of it and less of a mess.  Sand isn't anywhere near as destructive as water if it seeps out.   I know the school had one wavemaster that leaked sand, but what I don't know is if the leak was actually caused when it was filled with sand, or if it was caused when it was filled with water and the wavemaster was later filled with sand and patched.


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## SahBumNimRush (Mar 19, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> Does the sand make the wavemasters hold up better?  In my experience, they're not durable with frequent use and they eventually start leaking water, which is the reason I installed hanging heavy bags at my school.



The sand provides two benefits IMO, It adds more weight, so the bag does not move as much.  The lack of fluid dynamics also may have some affect on the durability of the seams.  The seems wear out and then they start leaking water, but I haven't had any wavemasters leak sand YET.


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## mastercole (Mar 19, 2012)

For the serious practitioner, the Wavemaster and Powair bag are as different as a makiwara (talyunbong) and a balloon.  My advise, only use Wavemasters (water or sand in the base) for beginners (White to Black belt). Once a persons technique is shaped, it's time to move on to targets that can help practitioners refine their technique and study it deeply.  My higher skilled students never use the Wavemaster.  Actually it will degrade refined technique.  All a person is striking is a thick, firm piece of foam. The water (or sand) in the base simply holds the base up right for you. Good idea for business where the dojang instructor has a lot of students in class to run through drills, but bad idea for developing technique to a high level.

The Powair bag however is pure genius.  It hangs from a chain and is filled with water. No foam at all. The water comes right to the outer neopreme (sp?) skin of the bag. Ours is about 130 lbs.  When you punch or kick the Powair style bag, your fist or foot immediately impacts into the water and the water will exponentially resist the deeper you penetrate. In order to penetrate deeper into the water, you must align your technique correctly, like the makiwara. Once the correct alignment becomes habitual, start going deeper and deeper. Train on this bag for 20+ years and your technique will be very natural. You can go deep into the bag with seemingly effortless movement, again, like the makiwara.  

When we kick or punch humans, we are striking mostly water and to go deeper into the body (like water) we must have correct alignment, acceleration, mass, etc. The Powair bag lets us explore that in depth.

I have trained with the Powair bag almost as long I have have with the makiwara, about 30 years. To me, one is just as important as the other.  Actually, if I had to choose only one, today, I might go with the Powair bag.  But good luck finding a Powair style bag.  The company is not always in business, but there are off shoots that are just as good, but you want one that is *water to outer skin* NO FOAM.  I'll try and post a link later


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## RobinTKD (Mar 21, 2012)

Master Cole, did you ever find the link? The Powair bag sounds like just the thing I'm looking for.


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## mastercole (Mar 21, 2012)

RobinTKD said:


> Master Cole, did you ever find the link? The Powair bag sounds like just the thing I'm looking for.



http://store.titleboxing.com/title-liquishock-water-heavy-bag.html

Be careful, I would contact them and make sure that the bag you are getting has no foam.  Most of the bags do have foam.  Once we were sent the foam lined bags and sent them back, the feel was way off and no where near the strictly water to skin filled bag.

This bag will give you the same feel as the Powair bag, so the training on it is excellent. The thing is the durability is not the same as Powair, if have have hard striking fighters hitting it often, it will only last a few years at best.  If it is just one person, it depends.  If it's just in regular classes, it will likely last forever. 

Of course, always consult your physician on any issues of physical exercise


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## SahBumNimRush (Mar 21, 2012)

Love the disclaimer Master Cole.  We had one of those foam covered water core hanging bags back in the 90's, I didn't really care for it.  I'm curious about the bag you linked above though.


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## mastercole (Mar 21, 2012)

SahBumNimRush said:


> Love the disclaimer Master Cole.  We had one of those foam covered water core hanging bags back in the 90's, I didn't really care for it.  I'm curious about the bag you linked above though.



It was Mike Tyson's main training bag. Here is a video of Tyson hitting the Powair bag for the Japanese media.  When the angle of the camera is right, you can see the impact of his punch come out the other side of the back via the shock wave traveling through the water. Another thing about this video is that you can see how well the bag keeps it's shape, even though it is basically a big water balloon.


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## mastercole (Mar 21, 2012)

Miles said:


> I have a talyunbong which GM Park said had too much resistance so I took it down.  I have a diagram he drew up to mount it so that it has the right amount of resistance but need more carpentry skills to build the base.
> 
> No one has used the Powair bag?  I'm curious about them, I've never used it either.  At our dojang, we have a Century wavemaster on one mat and a hanging Everlast bag on another.  Different drills for each.



Master Miles, here is one GM Park drew last time he was in Cleveland. He drew it really fast and detailed. He got really excited that I brought up the Talyunbong and gave me a 15 minute lesson, I'll also include a photo of him using me as his Talyunbong in the dojang office.







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## puunui (Mar 22, 2012)

mastercole said:


> Master Miles, here is one GM Park drew last time he was in Cleveland. He drew it really fast and detailed. He got really excited that I brought up the Talyunbong and gave me a 15 minute lesson, I'll also include a photo of him using me as his Talyunbong in the dojang office.



GM Park really is into it. He got all excited when I brought it up too, and spent a really long time going over how to make a makiwara, the purpose, how to strike it, etc. I think he feels that this type of training is fast becoming lost and forgotten, and therefore I think he enthusiastically shares what he knows to anyone that is interested. Personally, I think this type of training is considered by traditionalists as important or more important than kata training, in karate.


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## mastercole (Mar 23, 2012)

puunui said:


> GM Park really is into it. He got all excited when I brought it up too, and spent a really long time going over how to make a makiwara, the purpose, how to strike it, etc. I think he feels that this type of training is fast becoming lost and forgotten, and therefore I think he enthusiastically shares what he knows to anyone that is interested. Personally, I think this type of training is considered by traditionalists as important or more important than kata training, in karate.



Teaching is certainly his forte. We were in the Cleveland Museum of Art, walked into a special exhibit of posed warrior statues holding spears and various weapons. He started point out to me the positions and stances, demonstrating them and why, right there in the middle of this huge room on the marble and granite floor. I was watching him in amazement thinking he has so much knowledge, and here I am standing here and a man who helped craft our Poomsae is point out all these things to me. Amazing.  

I think the talyunbong vanished from some groups because of variance in teaching, etc. Reason is, any mistake becomes a brutal punishment. No one wants to use it if they use it wrong. Those who used it correctly love it and continue for life.  

Yes, I read somewhere from one of those big Karate seniors that with out makiwara training kata was just dance and there was no Karate.


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## StudentCarl (Dec 10, 2012)

As a result of GM Cole's advice here, I got the water bag from Title in April and have been using it since (about 6 months so far). Mine has about 160# of water in it. It is now my favorite target for training. Hit it with speed and it is hard (firm)...the goal being to hit with shocking power rather than push. I have not trained with a makiwara/talyunbong, but an advantage of the bag is that I can use all manner of technique. At present I'm working on striking with power, and the water bag gives far better feedback and tool conditioning than foam. It's made a noticeable difference in the quality of my breaking technique too.

Carl


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## ETinCYQX (Dec 11, 2012)

StudentCarl said:


> As a result of GM Cole's advice here, I got the water bag from Title in April and have been using it since (about 6 months so far). Mine has about 160# of water in it. It is now my favorite target for training. Hit it with speed and it is hard (firm)...the goal being to hit with shocking power rather than push. I have not trained with a makiwara/talyunbong, but an advantage of the bag is that I can use all manner of technique. At present I'm working on striking with power, and the water bag gives far better feedback and tool conditioning than foam. It's made a noticeable difference in the quality of my breaking technique too.
> 
> Carl



Was hoping someone would pull the trigger on it. Thanks for the input Carl.


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