# Characteristics of Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo



## stoneheart (Feb 18, 2005)

Can anyone knowledgable on the art please explain the identifying characteristics of Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo?  I'm more interested in the techniques and philosophy of the martial art and not the controversy behind the Juchnik/Mitose connection.

 I recently viewed the first Kumite video produced by Hanshi Juchnik.  His explanations on zip-zig movement and triangle theory really seems to work, at least at my current superficial level.  I tried some of the ideas out during a sparring class...I'm impressed.


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## GAB (Feb 18, 2005)

stoneheart said:
			
		

> Can anyone knowledgable on the art please explain the identifying characteristics of Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo? I'm more interested in the techniques and philosophy of the martial art and not the controversy behind the Juchnik/Mitose connection.
> 
> I recently viewed the first Kumite video produced by Hanshi Juchnik. His explanations on zip-zig movement and triangle theory really seems to work, at least at my current superficial level. I tried some of the ideas out during a sparring class...I'm impressed.


Hi Stoneheart,

That is a good start, seek and you shall find, is the way to go...

Search the web, Go to Hanshi's site MACS or SKSKI... scour every thing you can regarding the art, it is very complicated...It is a pine tree, it is an octagon, it is circular movements, it is reading, it is writing in Kanji, it is studing what is around you, it is breathing, it is striking with the hands, the feet, the body as a projectile each and every part of it...

It is about body mechanics, it is about being aware, asking questions...
listen and think. Stop and think...Logic...Taming the OX...

Regards, Gary


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## stoneheart (Feb 18, 2005)

Thanks, Gary.  I guess I was looking for a more tangible answer.  What makes Kosho Shorei Ryu different from say other forms of Okinawan-based arts?  For example, I know they do some of the Shorin-Ryu kata.  Do you know how they do them differently from a Maysubashi Shorin-Ryu expert?


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## Benjp (Feb 18, 2005)

Hi Stoneheart,

I am studying Kosho Shorei Ryu..  True self defense is accomplished when no one is injured.  That's what Mitose taught.

*Movement*
As you've probably seen on the video, movement is done with angles.  When this is tied in with timing (using peripheral vision gives your defense an edge), it is effective for escaping or engaging.  However, if engagement is to take place it is to allow for the next movement.  Kosho isn't about controlling the opponent, it's about recognizing what you can control in a confrontation--yourself.

*Techniques?*
As far as techniques go, there aren't any that I've been taught.  In fact, if my instructor teaches anything that might resemble a technique, he gives a preamble about how this is a technique, so don't ever do it (what he means is, learn the lesson that this teaches and then don't do it again).

Because there are no techniques, when Sensei demonstrates defense from an attacker during rondori he does something different every time..  It's not about *what* to do, it's about *when* to do and how to avoid getting hurt.  I think it would be a lot easier to learn if there were techniques, but I have faith in my instructor's abilities as a martial artist and an instructor to train how he wants me to train.  He learned this way and has become a very good martial artist.

*Katas*
Here are the katas I've learned (up through blue belt):
juni ippo (ichi, ni, san) -- brought to the kai by Robert Trias
Pinan (ichi, ni, san, yon, go) -- the same as the Okinawan Pinan katas
Neko Buto (ichi, ni, san) -- Mitose's katas as taught to Hanshi by R. Trias.
Maai No Jo -- Jo kata created by Juchnik Hanshi
Onaihanchi -- Naihanchi ichi, ni, san Okinawan kata
Naihano -- Mitose's family version of Naihanchi.

Again, without an emphasis on technique, the kata is taught formally as one might expect in a karate dojo (however stances are modified slightly and the striking is less rigid).  However, as the kata becomes internalized it takes on many bunkai.  I once asked a if part of a movement of a kata was a block or a strike.  The answer was yes, and a valid bunkai was given for both.  

With that said, I have been extremely impressed with my instructor, and his jaw-dropping abilities are dwarfed by his own instructor's abilities.  All of this makes me eager to pursue in this style of training..

I hope this helps, and I apologize in advance if I've misrepresented anything as I'm still just a beginner...

Ben


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## BlackCatBonz (Feb 18, 2005)

http://www.collectivesociety.com/skski/

this site will give you a few answers about the philosophies of kosho, the areas of study, etc.


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## GAB (Feb 19, 2005)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> http://www.collectivesociety.com/skski/
> 
> this site will give you a few answers about the philosophies of kosho, the areas of study, etc.


Hi Shawn,

It is nice of you to put up the site...Lots of good information at this SKSKI web site. 

Stoneheart...

What is more tangible then going to the web site of Hanshi Bruce Juchnik...
Or the web site of the Martial Arts Collective Society (MACS) and read what is there and shows pictures of some very knowledgable people in the Kai?
You can ask them and send e-mails to them ( expert ) advisers...

Quit a few of the katas that Hanshi found and added, were taught to him by Thomas Young, Edward Bobby Lowe, Robert Trias, and others...

He received quite a bit of the puzzle from James Mitose also, verbal but still very tangible information for a person who had already been studing under numerous Masters and persons who knew, handed down information via visual, auditory and all the ways of communicating that is available in the world of Martial Arts... 

To try and get information from this and many other talk boards is some times useful, sometimes not...Many reasons persons put up information is so others who are interested will be able to read it and tell others...

I would appreciate the information that has been given to you. 

I think you need to seek and find out information that is out there already and when you have read it you will have a better idea of the subject, Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo...Then you can ask questions and get some answers...Or argue the subject matter, it is up to you...

Ben you did a good job, suppling a start up kit for Stoneheart...

I hope you will look for the truth Stoneheart and the information that is avaliable to you and check with the advisors (experts) on the MACS site....

I am studing at this time from Hanshi, Angel Cabalas Escrima with a Kosho twist...I also receive study directly from GM Carlito Bonjoc Jr. It does not get any better then that, in my opinion...

He teaches you the original, the traditional and then shows you where it is going with his techniques...Hanshi always gives credit to the persons he received it from and is continually pointing out the small nuances and changes he has added...

Hanshi is the best all around Martial Artist bar none, in my humble opinion...

Not only does he teach it behind closed doors he teach's it via the Video and DVD...That way it gets out and people can either believe or pick it a part, but it is avaliable to all at these web sites...

What is more tangible than that? Other then, sign up at Hanshi's dojo and learn from him??? I train with Hanshi and my Sensei Pat Kelly in Elk Grove.

But my personal instructor is my son, Robert...

Regards, Gary


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## Benjp (Feb 19, 2005)

> Originally Posted by *GAB*
> Ben you did a good job, suppling a start up kit for Stoneheart...



Thanks Gary.  You are very fortunate to be able to train with Hanshi..  

Ben


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## GAB (Feb 19, 2005)

Ben,

You are welcome...Yes, I am very lucky, my son is a very good martial artist in his own right...He tells me all the time about how I should study directly with Hanshi...But, I do, just not all the time....

I can go into Sensei Pat Kelly's and do my own thing or do what he is teaching that day or not... Ask as much as I want, talk one on one and laugh and have a great time...

Hanshi is very busy with his new schedule, I have his private number he answers it all the time and I just talk or ask a question or tell him what is happening on the net etc...

One thing you don't have to do with Hanshi, is wash his feet,
(old saying for respect) there is plenty of respect, just that it is mutual and not one sided...Not that he can't be grumpy, but I have not seen it...

When we were in class the other night, the last few minutes are for asking questions and answer period...There was a younger martial artist asked him a question about how much martial arts he has done, why he knows so much???

Hanshi actually blushed and said, I have been doing it for a long time and I had some great instructors, I am just a student of the arts...

He is in Rhode Island this weekend...

Every time I see him I am asking for DVDs, and one that I really have wanted and have been waiting on it for awhile, I got it the other night. He was moving and could not find the master, or no time etc. etc....

I hope you can make the Gathering, I will be there or dead one of the two...

Regards, Gary


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## BlackCatBonz (Feb 19, 2005)

hi gary

you know......i was going to do this big write up of what kosho is to me. i can ramble on for hours and hours about it. but then i stopped and thought...maybe i wouldnt present it as well as the info on the site. 
but you know me.......im happy to answer any questions and debate any subject.
i wish i could get to the gathering, im terribly jealous of everyone that gets to attend.
stoneheart, i am in no way an expert in kosho.....ive been studying it for 8 years, but i would be happy to answer any questions i can.


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## GAB (Feb 19, 2005)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> hi gary
> 
> you know......i was going to do this big write up of what kosho is to me. i can ramble on for hours and hours about it. but then i stopped and thought...maybe i wouldnt present it as well as the info on the site.
> but you know me.......im happy to answer any questions and debate any subject.
> ...


Hi Stoneheart,
I will be glad to discuss some of the stuff, you can ask etc...

I can't read what you want in your simple request...I would not know much about the movements in various katas regarding other arts I don't study a lot of other arts for the Kata...

Like for example a lot of the philosophy of Shorinji Ryu Kempo is in Japanese, I like you, can look at pictures on their web site but I sure would not know what they do by reading one of their books...

I know that they have a very humanitarian out look and one of the things about Hanshi's Kosho is similar. Very humble and soft spoken these days...

Not always though, those who know his past of rough and tumble, fight at the drop of a hat, is certainly not him now....

Now Sensei George Santana is another cup of tee, It is going to get interesting when he retires and writes his stuff LOL...

Regards, Gary


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## stoneheart (Feb 20, 2005)

Thank you, Ben, Gary, and Shawn for your replies.  Ben's answer was exactly the type of information I was looking for, and I hope you'll continue to post on this thread or others as Kosho questions come up.

 Gary, I already knew the url's for Mr. Juchnik's organization.  Although I see your point about needing a foundation in what Kosho is before I can really start to understand it, I feel since I do not study Mr. Juchnik's system, it would probably be misleading for me to form an opinion of or try to conceptualize his teachings by myself.  I would be filtering the material through my own limited experiences, and I'm afraid I would be far, far off the mark.  Thank you however for taking the time to post and the offer to answer more questions.


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## Kosho-Monk (Feb 21, 2005)

StoneHeart,

I study Kosho with Hanshi Juchnik.  Before that I was a student of the Villari Shaolin Kempo group since the early 80s.  One of the things that Kosho teaches, that was absent from all of the teachings I received in Shaolin Kempo, was remembering that the attacker was alive and moving.  

In Shaolin Kempo the attacker always stood around and let you do the techniques.  In Kosho we work to understand the way the attacker moves and how to interrupt that movement to prevent the attacker from being able to hit/grab/etc us.

I would say that 99% of the set techniques that I was taught in Shaolin Kempo failed when put to the test of simply having my partner throw more than one punch.  But by simply keeping in mind that the attacker keeps moving when you hit them (unless you are lucky and they drop after one hit) I have modified all the techniques orignially taught to me to make them work.

Another thing about Kosho that makes a difference from any other martial art I've seen is the escaping arts.  

In Kosho we learn how the body moves.  In such we learn how to move at proper angles to avoid being hit.  We also learn how to stop the body movement of the attacker.  So when we add together getting out of the way and stopping the attacker's movement, we have non-destructive self-defense.  (I once worked with a guy who I ended up doing a skeletal freeze move on.  He said to me that my technique didn't work because I never hit.  Of course he couldn't move from his position to attack me - but that seemed to escape him.)

Kosho, the way I learn it today from Hanshi, is simply the best martial art I've ever seen.  I haven't seen them all, but I've seen a lot.  I have the Kumite tape and it's great.  I also have well over 100 other tapes, dvds and books.  If you can pick up some more tapes on Kosho you should.  You will not be making a mistake.


-John


PS.  The study of Kosho is vast.  It means that we are required to study everything.  I study weapons, writing, cultural, healing, mediation, philosophy, self-defense, body mechanics and a whole lot more.  Simply put: Kosho is a thinking man's art.


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## BlackCatBonz (Feb 21, 2005)

john, your first point is probably the most important thing about kosho!
i hear people talking about working on a fully resisting opponent all the time......and still, that seems to miss the point.


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## Karazenpo (Feb 21, 2005)

Kosho-Monk said:
			
		

> StoneHeart,
> 
> I study Kosho with Hanshi Juchnik.  Before that I was a student of the Villari Shaolin Kempo group since the early 80s.  One of the things that Kosho teaches, that was absent from all of the teachings I received in Shaolin Kempo, was remembering that the attacker was alive and moving.
> 
> ...



Hi John, I can't remember who you had told me you trained under in Shaolin Kempo but all SK techniques are taught to work in varying situations if of course presented correctly. Actually, all techniques of most systems I know are taught that way. I don't believe it's just restricted to Kosho. If I may borrow from EPAK the term 'ideal phase' that is the phase you are first instructed with, for example the one punch defense which is used to drive the core technique home and the concept or idea of what that particular technique is trying to convey. Then, if I may borrow another term from EPAK, the 'what if' phase is applied where the same technique is altered for opposite hand attacks, multiple punches and even grabs and kicks. This is the proper method of teaching 'fixed' or 'static' movements and turning them into 'dynamic' or ever changing movements or simply, reality applications. It appears Shaolin Kempo was always meant to be taught this for for Gm. Villari in his instructional video series has a segment on defending against multiple punches.

As far as the way I personally teach, our ukes don't always 'play ball' with their toris. After a student learns the ideal phase when everything goes right or ukes will, for instance, 'stiff' a tori on let's say a leg hock and make the tori really work to take him down or alter the attack to see if the tori can 'change horses in the middle of the stream' so to speak or simply stated improvised application of the ideal phase. We also teach arm/leg immobilizations which are simply positioning ourselves as to stifle an attacker's movements, this is especially important when training LEO's. It's too bad some instructor's only teach the ideal phases of a technique. I feel though anyone who delves deeply into their training will come out with these conclusions themselves and therefore correct the applications to fit reality situations. After all, isn't it the novice students who came up with the question: "What if?"..........I remember I was one of them, lol. With respect, "Joe"


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## Benjp (Feb 21, 2005)

You're welcome, Stoneheart..

I'm by far the least qualified of the contributing posters to give you info, but I myself have searched long and hard for more information about Kosho-ryu curriculum without investing in Hanshi's videos and texts (which are kind of hard to come by)..  

Most of my kempo training has been *unlearning*.  It's easy to think that good martial arts require strong physical attributes, or a physical edge.  But these hinder in Kosho.  If I rely on brute strength and my size, then I'm learning improperly because there will always be someone who is bigger and/or stronger.  This is also nice because as I am getting older, my body can't handle the physical rigors of knuckle pushups, etc.  With Kosho, these things aren't needed.

Throwing, blocking, striking, kicking, etc., are all functions of the attacker, not functions of physical strength.  So watching a good Kempoist perform is similar to watching Aikido. 

However, Kempo looks more clumsy.  What is percieved by the outside observer is very different than what is percieved by the attacker.  Many of the strikes and manipulations done by the defender are hidden.  At times it can look downright funny, as the attacker gets so muddled up and confused.

Also, to follow up on what John (KoshoMonk) said in his postscript..  

We do a lot of yoga.  Almost as much yoga as kata.  We also do shodo (Japanese brush calligraphy) and shiatsu.  We also study other systems and system founders.  I did a paper on Isshinryu Karate.  One of the reasons I enjoy this art so much is the emphasis on things Japanese.  Many people are war buffs, I'm a "Japanese" buff, so Kosho is an excellent fit.  We study weapons with emphasis on Japanese tradition and everything above is tied in to Kosho Ryu self defense.  

I've been reading this site for well over two years and most have disparaging comments about Kosho Shorei ryu.  I don't really think it matters what Mitose did to train Hanshi, because what Hanshi teaches is simply brilliant..

Just my 2 1/2 cents..

Ben


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## GAB (Feb 21, 2005)

Benjp said:
			
		

> You're welcome, Stoneheart..
> 
> I'm by far the least qualified of the contributing posters to give you info, but I myself have searched long and hard for more information about Kosho-ryu curriculum without investing in Hanshi's videos and texts (which are kind of hard to come by)..
> 
> ...


Hi,

I had to quote you Ben, because I wanted to see that again...

Regards, Gary


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## Matt (Feb 22, 2005)

Benjp said:
			
		

> I've been reading this site for well over two years and most have disparaging comments about Kosho Shorei ryu.  I don't really think it matters what Mitose did to train Hanshi, because what Hanshi teaches is simply brilliant..
> 
> Just my 2 1/2 cents..
> 
> Ben



This is perhaps the best summation of Bruce Juchnik I've read. 

Really, he's built himself a nice little art. I've seen him move, and well, what I've seen looks pretty good. I just wish he could somehow ditch the Mitose fairy tale, and stand on his own merits. 

Matt


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## Kosho-Monk (Feb 22, 2005)

> Hi John, I can't remember who you had told me you trained under in Shaolin Kempo


Hi Joe,

Bob Bombalier was my last Shaolin Kempo instructor when I lived in CA. He's a 7th dan who trains directly under Fred Villari. And I can tell you that we never worked on stuff outside of what you called the ideal phase.

Actually I think there are 3 main phases: Fantasy, Ideal, What if. And I've seen a lot of people working only in the Fantasy phase. This phase, of course, is where the attacker only punches in with one strike and just stands around while you do what you need to do. (OK. We could also call this the "getting down the moves" phase. But at some point we need to move out of here.)

I am certain that within different Villari schools there are different ideas of how things should be taught. I believe once he got too big, things he wanted taught started to get lost.


-John


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## Karazenpo (Feb 22, 2005)

Kosho-Monk said:
			
		

> Hi Joe,
> 
> Bob Bombalier was my last Shaolin Kempo instructor when I lived in CA. He's a 7th dan who trains directly under Fred Villari. And I can tell you that we never worked on stuff outside of what you called the ideal phase.
> 
> ...



Yes John, I agree completely. The farther you get from the source the more the dillution of the original art. All in all I don't take techniques that seriously, what I mean is some martial artists try to learn a technique for each possible scenerio then they think if something happens they are going to be able to draw upon that particular technique to work for them. This develops from too much dojo and lack of reality. I feel good self defense is built primarily around your basics. Techniques are just suggestions of how you could apply those basics against an attack. They are exercises in coordination and movement-balance. I agree with another Ed Parker statement: Kenpo is formulated as encounters occur." I believe that is it in a nutshell. We spend too much time worrying but all these 'what if's'. Techniques teach you concepts or ideas and then they coordinate you to be able to carry out those concepts. Fighting is universal, there really is only one way to fight and that's the most efficient way possible. I feel once that is understood the rest comes pretty natural. Look at a good boxer in a street fight. He relies on pure reflexive ability developed through repetative training of solid basics and the boxers I've seen or heard of fair pretty well in the street. Take care, "Joe"


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## Karazenpo (Feb 22, 2005)

Matt stated: Really, he's built himself a nice little art. I've seen him move, and well, what I've seen looks pretty good. I just wish he could somehow ditch the Mitose fairy tale, and stand on his own merits. 

I say: Matt, you hit the nail right on the head. I've been saying that all along. Hanshi Juchnik has done a damn good job but it's 'his' art not Mitose's and he, his students and followers should take that as a compliment simply because it is!


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## gavarn (Mar 14, 2005)

Hello my name is Gavin I am from phila. I am a ryu member of the Koga Ha Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo. This is the Mitose system as taught to his last student Nimr Hassan. I have a web site kogahakempo.com come check us out. I just opened it so give me a little more time and you will find it to be a very informative site on the Mitose system.


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## KenpoDave (Mar 14, 2005)

It seems to me that Kosho Shorei is a set of principles designed to be added to a base art.  Mitose listed the 4 levels as War Arts, Joint Striking and Locking, Push/Pull, and Total Evasion with no body contact.

Most kenpo systems are war arts, meaning that they use a variety of techniques that typically incapacitate an opponent in one or two movements.  There are techniques that do not, and they are either for training purposes or they fall into one of the other categories.

Kosho Shorei provides a systematic way to link the 4 levels together, if taught correctly.  It is all in Mitose's book, the big one, for those who care to check.


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## KenpoDave (Mar 14, 2005)

Benjp said:
			
		

> I've been reading this site for well over two years and most have disparaging comments about Kosho Shorei ryu.  I don't really think it matters what Mitose did to train Hanshi, because what Hanshi teaches is simply brilliant..
> 
> Just my 2 1/2 cents..
> 
> Ben



This is a quote..."No, Mitose did not teach us techniques in prison.  He was well liked and afforded a small space in the visiting area where he could sit and talk with people.  We were able to ask questions and very calmly move our arms to demonstrate what we were trying to say or ask.  Very often, the answer to a question ended the lesson with the response, "Go read my book and come back to me."


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## The Kai (Mar 15, 2005)

Are you talking about the first book Mitose published??


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## KenpoDave (Mar 15, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> Are you talking about the first book Mitose published??



I am talking about the one with the red cover, "What is True Self Defense?"

It is the one with no techniques, and about 220 pages.


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## The Kai (Mar 15, 2005)

The one he wrote in prison?


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## KenpoDave (Mar 18, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> The one he wrote in prison?



Well, yes, that is the book.  I heard it was the one written first, and it was the one he wanted to publish, but the publishers talked him into changing it, adding techniques, etc.  My understanding is the manuscript existed in its almost finished form for years before Mitose went to prison, and was cleaned up and slightly revised for release while he was imprisoned.


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## The Kai (Mar 18, 2005)

Have you actually ever seem this book, or read it?  I askl cuz most people that talk so revertly about this book have never seem it.  there is nothing in the book,


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## KenpoDave (Mar 19, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> Have you actually ever seem this book, or read it?  I askl cuz most people that talk so revertly about this book have never seem it.  there is nothing in the book,



I have a copy, yes.


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## The Kai (Mar 20, 2005)

What do you find facinating about this book??


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## KenpoDave (Mar 20, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> What do you find facinating about this book??



Some of the exercises and breathing exercises in the book are exactly like the movements in the "I Chin Ching", but that work was not available in English translation at that time.  The exercises in the book are also exactly the same as the ones he showed Lisa Chun back in the late 30s which lends credibility to Mitose not just making all this up in prison.

I see the book as Mitose's attempt to fill in the kosho that he did not teach in Hawaii.  After reading it a couple of times, it seems rather clear that Mitose taught the War Time Arts in Hawaii and attempted to teach the other aspects of it to an audience that did not want it.

The book presents those other aspects of the art in such a way as so they can be added to any good base style.  It even offers pointers on where to look if people can not figure out the concepts as presented in the book.

All of this is packaged in a book that was obviously Mitose's attempt to either gain probation or repay his debt to society.  Because of that, much of what is in the book is missed, yet it is consistent with Mitose's habit of hiding things in plain sight.


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## The Kai (Mar 21, 2005)

While it is true the book does present the octogon, you'd be better off getting a tape from hanshi Bruce Juchnik.  Cheaper, easier to find, clearly expalined.  But it does'nt have the mysterious ring of "The Book"!


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## BlackCatBonz (Mar 21, 2005)

well todd, i must admit......i like the mitose book. but on the other hand, hanshi's tapes on octagon movement are excellent.


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## The Kai (Mar 21, 2005)

I think the book is the "golden fleece".  Its value comes from people like Juchnik interprteing it.   For the time and the trouble - get a tape!!


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## BlackCatBonz (Mar 21, 2005)

lol


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## KenpoDave (Mar 21, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> I think the book is the "golden fleece".  Its value comes from people like Juchnik interprteing it.   For the time and the trouble - get a tape!!



Interesting point.  Is there no value in my interpretation?  What if I have the book and I have trained with Ray Arquilla and gotten his interpretations?  Would having the book and Juchnik's tapes be better than just having the tapes?  

I doubt the tapes are cheaper than what I paid for the book, btw!


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## The Kai (Mar 22, 2005)

Actually, like most times I spoke too soon.  Gm Arquilla, tho I've only seen him once is a great teacher-I did'nt mean to dis him.  I have'nt seen tapes from Arquilla.


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## KenpoDave (Mar 22, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> Actually, like most times I spoke too soon.  Gm Arquilla, tho I've only seen him once is a great teacher-I did'nt mean to dis him.  I have'nt seen tapes from Arquilla.



GM Arquilla does not have any tapes out, and prefers not to be taped, as I understand it.  He did, begrudgingly, make a reference DVD of his most recent seminar.

A very impressive man, both in knowledge and skill.  It was this most recent seminar that has rekindled my interest in "the book."  Some of the things that he said and his interpretations have me getting much more from it now than I had before. :asian:


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## The Kai (Mar 22, 2005)

I'm glad you had a great time, ironically I think it is the teacher (and thier teaching) that give the book value and not the other way around!


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## KenpoDave (Mar 22, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> I'm glad you had a great time, ironically I think it is the teacher (and thier teaching) that give the book value and not the other way around!



I certainly agree with you there.  Any book is only as valuable as what the reader gets out of it. :asian:


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