# Fraud, or Just don't know better...



## iron_ox (Oct 27, 2004)

Hello all,

Departing from the superthread for a minute, have any of you seen a Hapkido dojang SO far out there that it was not Hapkido? e.g. The instructor has no real Hapkido background, etc.  What did you do, anything?  By what criteria do we evaluate the rash of "new" Hapkido.  

Not looking for a Hapkido police, or are we?  Given a certain small group of established traditions, does anyone have a reponsibility to question what might be fraud?

Lots of wiggle room here for dicussion.  But I would like to avoid the mire of so and so from this organization etc.  really looking to investigate the "independants" that suddenly become super-dans.

Are these guys frauds, or do they just not know better because of a loose interpretation of Hapkido?


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## Disco (Oct 27, 2004)

By what criteria do we evaluate the rash of "new" Hapkido? Really looking to investigate the "independants" that suddenly become super-dans. 

I know you didn't want to get into the mire of so and so from this organization etc., but the term super-dan kind of opened the door. Without naming, I can assume we all know who I mean to reference. It has been discussed on other threads that this persons background criteria was/is questionable, but a discipline/Kwan has been established that is accepted by many. Now comes the real crux of the debate. This discipline was acknowledged and accepted by a governing body, with ties to Korea. The head of this organization is on the Hapkido family tree. Was this "New Hapkido" evaluated or just purchased? Is it Hapkido because someone with "correct" lineage says it is or because it can stand on it's own merits? 

  Not looking for a Hapkido police, or are we? Given a certain small group of established traditions, does anyone have a reponsibility to question what might be fraud?

Since the protectors of society (law enforcement / court system) react after the fact and in cases such as martial arts fraud, have no real impact to safeguard the public, someone should/must fill the void. The problem here is that this aspect also can/does get distorted. Caveat Empator, buyer beware..... Years ago, prior to the advent of the internet, it was easy to take advantage of people. In todays climate, people are information driven. They have the ability to research, via venues like "Martial Talk". It is up to the individual to do their homework. 

We can look at this problem as a working evaluation of the Hapkido circle principle.  :uhyeah:  It always seems to come back to the authenticity of who learned what and where.


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## Master Todd Miller (Oct 27, 2004)

When I was first introduced to MT it was because a former student that I had promoted to yellow belt had claimed that he was a 7th dan Grandmaster and founder of Hapki-Bujutsu.  I did feel a responsiblity to reveal who Eric really was!  I agree that people have no one to blame but themselves if they do not do some research into an art or teacher.  This to me is just common sense.

Take care

www.millersmudo.com


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## iron_ox (Oct 27, 2004)

Disco said:
			
		

> I know you didn't want to get into the mire of so and so from this organization etc., but the term super-dan kind of opened the door. Without naming, I can assume we all know who I mean to reference. It has been discussed on other threads that this persons background criteria was/is questionable, but a discipline/Kwan has been established that is accepted by many. Now comes the real crux of the debate. This discipline was acknowledged and accepted by a governing body, with ties to Korea. The head of this organization is on the Hapkido family tree. Was this "New Hapkido" evaluated or just purchased? Is it Hapkido because someone with "correct" lineage says it is or because it can stand on it's own merits?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## SmellyMonkey (Oct 27, 2004)

I agree with the previous statements.  It is the responsiblity of the student to research the kwan and instructor before deciding to join the school.

We have the benifit of living a free society where a person can believe whatever they want.  If someone trains for a year or two and believes they have the skill to teach, nothing can stop them from teaching.

We Americans are pretty savy customers.  It is hard to defruad is for long.  Eventually, an instructor promising to be something he/her isn't will go out of business.

Thank goodness we don't have "hapkido police".  If we disagree as much as we do now, think about what would happen if all our schools had to "prove" to an outside party they deserve to teach hapkido.  That policing body itself would be rife with fraud.  Look at our hapkido federations now! 
Jeremy


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## Disco (Oct 27, 2004)

Kevin, I'd be interested to see that info. Thanks for the offer to PM. Perhaps I'll get a better understanding of what some people are trying to pass off. But even though that certain party was not the intention, how do you feel about the aspect of the question about was the "New Hapkido" evaluated or just purchased? Is it Hapkido because someone with "correct" lineage says it is or because it can stand on it's own merits? 


Mike


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## glad2bhere (Oct 27, 2004)

The Circle Principle tells us that "what goes around comes around". We allowed wiggleroom and for our sins it has become one of those entitlements that people milk for all its worth. The 500# gorrilla that nobody wants to talk about is that we continue to have people who agree "I won't out you if you don't out me." 

But lets not draw the line there either. How many people are truely discriminating when it comes to asking about credentials? Is it that they don't know how to ask or are they simply not to keen on pressing the point. I find it pretty hard to believe that so many folks were "victimized" a while back as though they had absolutely no idea of what was being done. Like small children in a violent household we all know a whole lot more about whats going on than most people will give us credit for. The fact is, though, that we don't want to put our own personal vitae at risk so we go along with the game until it simply becomes to outlandish.  FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Disco (Oct 27, 2004)

Bruce, there's two ways to be victimized. The first is to be totally unaware and walk into something that's crap. You won't know it's crap until you become educated via training, which leads to enlightenment, which leads to questions, which then leads to discovery. The second and actually more damaging (IMO) is the broken trust from real instructors (i.e. Forged documents, promotion ceiling, not delivering earned documentations, etc). 

How many people are truely discriminating when it comes to asking about credentials?

I can only respond to the number of people who I personally deal with. To date, everyone that comes into my school asks about the credentials. But in all fairness, when they walk in the door it's the first thing they see, so naturally they ask. The problem there is that they have no real idea of what's legit and what's not. I tell them how they can verify if they should so choose, but it's doubtful that any would follow up on that process. So you may be correct with "how many are truely discriminating".

What's your take on the question I posed the "New Hapkido" evaluated or just purchased? Is it Hapkido because someone with "correct" lineage says it is or because it can stand on it's own merits?


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## ajs1976 (Oct 28, 2004)

SmellyMonkey said:
			
		

> I agree with the previous statements. It is the responsiblity of the student to research the kwan and instructor before deciding to join the school.


How do you do this?  

Ask the instructor to see his certificates.  How do you know they are real?

Use publications to reaserch the system / instructor.  I find it hard to do when it is common a magazine to carry articles and ads about the same person.  

From the internet. The internet has a lot of information.  A lot of it is inaccurate or even an outright lie.





For a beginner, this can be really hard.  I think it is important to spend time learning about the MA, before signing up.


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## SmellyMonkey (Oct 28, 2004)

You can tell a lot about a school by just looking around.  How old are the students (many adults = good)?  What kind of padding do they have on the floors (hardwood/thin padding probably means no takedowns/throws).  Who is teaching? (Is grandmaster sitting around handling the business but not teaching?  Are masters teaching the class?  1st or 2nd dan instructors?  Are they skilled?)


There are lots of posts out there on how to pick a school.  And you know what you want to get out of your training more than anyone else.  Take the trial lesson and see how you like it.


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## The Kai (Oct 28, 2004)

Wow all the questions you asked would never occur to a beginner!1.) Adult students?, or sure plenty,next class mr. please sign now
2.)Padding on floor?,  Most beginners see MA"s in the movies of T.V. where it looks like a body is taking a terrible fall on to the street-not once of twice bot dozens of times-and bounces right back up
3.)  Who is teaching?, I know plenty of adults to study with the local GM (without even knowing what the word meant)-He is retired and has been for several yeras!

Most people off the street know nothing or have such preconceptions they are actually in the negative_They cannot make a truely informed decision!
my 2 cents-will lurk again
Todd


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## SmellyMonkey (Oct 28, 2004)

The Kai said:
			
		

> 2.)Padding on floor?, Most beginners see MA"s in the movies of T.V. where it looks like a body is taking a terrible fall on to the street-not once of twice bot dozens of times-and bounces right back up


Ouch!  You got me there!

Great argument, The Kai!  I never thought about posting advice to the potential student who believes hapkidoists can bounce off concrete dozens of times and get right back up!

The point of this thread was what to do about schools and instructors that "fraudlently" pretend to teach hapkido.  I think the answer posted by many was it is hard to prevent this from happening, but good news!  - these schools will probably fail once people realize they are being defrauded.

I posted VERY few things potential students should look for in a hapkido school AFTER they have learned about hapkido by doing a little research.

But you got me!  Don't worry, I won't reply to your posts again.


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## The Kai (Oct 28, 2004)

SmellyMonkey said:
			
		

> Ouch! You got me there!
> 
> 
> The point of this thread was what to do about schools and instructors that "fraudlently" pretend to teach hapkido. I think the answer posted by many was it is hard to prevent this from happening, but good news! - these schools will probably fail once people realize they are being defrauded.


I don't know there are plenty of TKD schools out there tahta could'nt fight thier way outta a paper bag, the solution?  Of course it is to offer a course in Krav Maga (or what ever pre packaged deal in  a box) and charge for it!  The fleeced get even more fleeced.
Todd


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## glad2bhere (Oct 28, 2004)

Dear Mike: 

"......What's your take on the question I posed the "New Hapkido" evaluated or just purchased? Is it Hapkido because someone with "correct" lineage says it is or because it can stand on it's own merits?....." 

Until we got going on that mammoth string ("Hapkido Q&A") I was beginning to think there might be a light at the end of the tunnel. Now, in all possible fairness I am completely overwhelmed by the numbers of mixed and conflicted messages as people attempt to characterize Hapkido. Through all of the exchanges, however I note two consistent themes that come up over and over. 

One is that no one wants to be held to some level of accountability especially a criteria organized by another person. 

The other is that people would rather banter about the relative merits of their particular favorite personality than participate in organizing a cohesive curriculum for the arts. Why is this? Well, see point #1. 

In the tradition of Korean martial science the passage of tradition from one generation was based on the fundamental efficacy of the material and its founding in Korean culture. For most practitioners here in the West all this means is that without uniform standards folks are free to title ANYTHING Hapkido. How are we then to respond to you question about "New Hapkido" when folks will not agree about the "Old" version?  FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Disco (Oct 28, 2004)

[From Bruce] How are we then to respond to you question about "New Hapkido" when folks will not agree about the "Old" version? FWIW. 

Aside from the personality preference, I think most people have agreed on "Old Hapkido" in principle, as to the status of being a viable discipline. As has transpired on other threads, regarding the author of this subject "New Hapkido", again people in general have opinionated, but mainly on the personality side of the issue. My question actually involves both elements of the old and new and is not directly related to personality, but rather the status as a viable discipline under the Hapkido banner. There is no available information that links this "New" venue to either Choi or Ji. But one of the disciples of possibly both Choi and Ji, who is in a position for influence within the general KMA's world, has put forth the assertion that this is an accepted portal for people to train in. By doing so, lineage and nationalistic history no longer become an issue. That is my assessment of the situation, which allows me to venture forth and ask the question, "Is it Hapkido because someone with "correct" lineage says it is or because it can stand on it's own merits?....." 

Thanks for all your reply's in the past and for the future......... :asian: 
Mike Dunn


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## glad2bhere (Oct 29, 2004)

Dear Mike: 

I want to respond to your question regarding "new" Hapkido but I am afraid its going to sound a bit like a dodge. Please know up-front that is not my intention. 

Like you, I think that we will always be saddled with the baggage of personalities and personal preference. That said, I still characterize Hapkido as an evolving art. Out of respect for my view of Hapkido I would ask people who are interested in pursuing such evolution to honor what I see as two basic positions. 

1.) If one professes to teach Hapkido as a Korean Martial Art I would ask that they honor the learning and teaching of that art within the context of its place as a portion (or expression) of Korean culture. 

2.) If one professes to practice Hapkido as a Mu-Do I would ask that before proceeding to integrate outside (material not amalagmated by the Koreans into their martial traditions) that they first learn all that is available within the Korean tradition. By this I mean, for example,  that before one starts using nunchuka and teaching that as part of their curriculum, that they study the Korean flail polearm. In like manner, before one starts practicing Japanese sword, that they first study Korean sword- and so forth. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Disco (Oct 29, 2004)

Bruce

Using your respnse, the two basic positions, I assert that this "New" Hapkido falls in neither camp. Now before I go any further, let me re-state my personal position regarding Korean Martial disciplines in general. I respect and practice the discipline proper, that being the Mu-Do aspect. As for the other edge to the sword, the "Art', which I believe bears the brunt of the codes of ethics, which include honor, respect, loyalty, etc., I have very little use for. Why you ask? Because of the many years of either directly dealing with or watching how the Koreans themselves turn their back on those elements when it suits them. To me, this plays right into the other mega thread that's ongoing. In order to give validity to any historical rationalization, shouldn't the people that have been born and raised and intrusted with said historical roots be true to at least the intent, if not the actual teachings themselves? If those that I speak about hold no relevance for these subjects, then just really how important are they? Apparently they seem to only hold meaning for us here in the west. Another example, at least to me, is the information pertaining to Ji and his wish for no one to become the head of Sin Moo. No disrespect to any of the Sin Moo people intended here, just using this as a reference to validate a point of contention. We will have history repeating itself, but this time under a directive. Choi taught and people learned and then went their seperate ways and developed what they wanted. Now we have all this ongoing rhetoric to determine what is what and who is who. There was no thought as to historical dogma back then, otherwise there may have been tighter controls introduced by Choi. Apparently he didn't care about such mundane things and by Ji wishing to do the same thing, he follows suit. By their actions, the element(s) of which we try to align history is thrown to the wind and the so called roots of a system are planted in sand. So in a way I guess I have answered my own question. "New" Hapkido is Hapkido because it has been blessed by someone who says it is. This has been the tradition thruout Hapkidos history.


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## glad2bhere (Oct 29, 2004)

Disco said:
			
		

> In order to give validity to any historical rationalization, shouldn't the people that have been born and raised and intrusted with said historical roots be true to at least the intent, if not the actual teachings themselves? If those that I speak about hold no relevance for these subjects, then just really how important are they? Apparently they seem to only hold meaning for us here in the west. Another example, at least to me, is the information pertaining to Ji and his wish for no one to become the head of Sin Moo. No disrespect to any of the Sin Moo people intended here, just using this as a reference to validate a point of contention.



Dear Mike: 

Fact is there simply is not a font size with enough points to give you the sort of screeming "amen" your post deserves! I have been hammering on this theme for so long now I have to buy my mallets by the gross! I cannot call the behavior of the Korean nationals anything other than "shameful" when I witness their conduct and the selective way that they invoke cultural institutions such as Confucianism to support their respective authorities. I will also add in all possible fairness that the larger number of violators are found outside of Korea rather than inside. Folks whom I  met in Korea were satisfied to regard me as a kind of Korean culture "wannabee" and to suffer me with grace. I imagine that we would do the same with foreign nationals who would come to America to become "cowboys," yes? To make matters worse, except where such Korean institutions strengthen the authority of leaders here in the States, nobody seems much interested in the role of Korean culture as a shaping influence on the development of martial traditions. Still I can no more discount the role of Confucianism and Buddhism in the development of KMA, than I could ignore Christianity in the production of Western martial traditions. In the world of todays' fighting elite, such agreements as the Geneva Convention are invoked. Centuries ago it was Chivalry. For the Japanese there is that classic mix of Buddhisn, Shinto and Bu-jutsu that yeilded Bushido. How have we come to the place that we can purport to study Korean martial traditions and not know Shamanism, Buddhism and Mu-sool?  FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Disco (Oct 29, 2004)

Bruce, I stand corrected. In my confusion, I thought we were on opposite sides of the fence. We just view it from different tangents that's all. Perhaps this next statement may be to simplistic, but it's how I view martial arts in general. From all the general given history, martial arts is a great pyramid. The top is Chinese orientated and then it filters down and out thruout the world. Each country that embraced the original teachings, then made them their own and embodied something of their own culture into the mix. This filtration is an ongoing production even today. Although in gereral, we may feel that anything "new" is unwarranted, I'm sure that that very same feeling has also been a sidebar during this filtration process. Bottom line to this dissertation is that I believe in "What it can do, Not who takes credit for it"...

Mike  :asian:


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## glad2bhere (Oct 30, 2004)

Dear Mike: 

I don't know if I automatically put the Chinese on top of that pyramid but I know what you are saying. I also subscribe to the "what it can do" school, I just don't limit the matters strictly to the physical plane. Seems as though  quite a few people would duck the philosophical or ethical aspect of the MA and make it nothing more than a sophisticated gymnastic. Picking up a rock and throwing it because an authority figure told you to is may be military. Doing the same thing to produce a higher good, when you have every good excuse not to is martial. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## iron_ox (Oct 30, 2004)

Hello all,

OK, back to reality.  I  was starting this post not to get run over from the mega thread, but to examine what attitudes people have to "Hapkido" dojangs whose instructors have almost no Hapkido in their background.  Now, as I said, for the minute, I wanted to leave behind the more controversial, larger and more well known organizations, including KHF and Combat Hapkido, and concentrate on the mom and pop size groups that start small and grow to super-con proportions.

This may include defining how others see Hapkido.  I would like to stick to simple definintions, e.g. founded by, includes, not "based in blah-blah culture" - just simple definintions.  I consider Hapkido founded by Choi, Yong Sul and is based on his curriculum, but again, the Ji tradition here is fine, whatever, but examine how we determine fakes and what should we do...

Personally, I think that a guy, for example, that has 13 years tae kwon do experience, then decides after a single Hapkido seminar this summer with a somewhat dodgey Hapkido character, to call himself "dojoonim" of his own Hapkido style is very suspect.  Now, if we are not self policing, who is?  If we allow some to turn the term Hapkido for a general catch-all for any KMA tradition (or Chinese tradition) with a throw in it, or use Hapkido as a general determinate for nunchaku groups, will the art survive?  Examine all other major martial arts of today.  Is Shotokan a catch-all, how about Tae-kwon-do?  This catch all nonsense allows others to say "I teach Hapkido - it really has no definition - so my Chin-na, rice-flail, neo-Confucian mantis style is also Hapkido".

Not for me it ain't.


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## glad2bhere (Oct 30, 2004)

Dear Kevin: 

Sorry, guy, but you ARE going to get SOME spill-over from the other string simply because "definitions" play a huge part in how people sell their product. 
By way of extension the degree to which people accept other definitions, or the degree to which we challenge other definitions speaks to the integrity of the art. Proceeding from THAT is also the matter of the art as "military" versus the art as "martial", two similar but not identical terms.  And I have not even gotten around to what we identify as positions of responsibility, and how those positions are filled, and respected, and how we account for (or hold accountable), how people find their ways into those positions. 

Now if you follow all of that there is also the flip-side of those same issues. If people DO NOT challenge the definitions of others, what is to be made of those who whip-stitch something together and then invoke the term "Hapkido"?  FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Disco (Oct 30, 2004)

Kevin, I understand where your coming from and sorry that I kind of went off on a tangent. Thanks again for the PM with the site link. I'll use that site info as a springboard for your question. This "founder" of this particular name of hapkido is 29 yrs old and without a doubt is full of himself. I watched the clip that was part of the site and although nothing above some basic's were present, I saw the intent to take something to a higher level. Now if he is truely qualified to assume the mantle of hapkidoist, I don't really know. Not enough information, but lets assume by present company standards, he is not. Should we or anyone else step up and proclaim that this is someone/something that must be avoided, because it dosen't meet our criteria? As bad as some may feel, that this is a detriment to Hapkido in general, it is at least sparking an interest in Hapkido. Perhaps students that he does have may want to expand upon the Hapkido teachings and seek a more qualified instructor. People that are fronting, soon run out of what they have to offer and people will/do pick up on that. At least those that really want to learn something. There's just too many people out there passing themselves off as something their not and even in a legit setting, people are being ripped off in some fashion.


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## glad2bhere (Oct 30, 2004)

Dear Mike:

Dangerous ground, this and not just because of the definition thing that I mentioned to Kevin. Hear are a couple things I picked up on your post. They stuck out for me because I have heard them in other posts over the years. 



			
				Disco said:
			
		

> This "founder" of this particular name of hapkido is 29 yrs old and without a doubt is full of himself. I watched the clip that was part of the site and although nothing above some basic's were present, I saw the intent to take something to a higher level.



Why would we accept this in a Hapkido instructor. Gymnastics, Football, etc etc  coaching and teaching a person needs to have some sort of credentialling. Kevin was saying this especially true inthe UK. Why do we take the word of an individual that they believe themselves to be qualified only BECAUSE they believe themselves to be qualified. 

[/QUOTE] Should we or anyone else step up and proclaim that this is someone/something that must be avoided, because it dosen't meet our criteria? [/QUOTE]

If the matter was based on individual criteria we would spend 25 hours a day pointing fingers. All the same though, look what happens when someone speaks up. How many times has someone taken umbarage because I have been critical and challenged me about being the "hapkido police"? Since I can't handout tickets, of course the simile' doesn't fit. But think about the response. Instead of taking inventory of whether one is doing the right thing, they get defensive and lash-out. Whats up about that? People don't want government doing the job, right? And apparently most leadership can and will intervene only in their own organization --- if then. 

[/QUOTE)] Prhaps students that he does have may want to expand upon the Hapkido teachings and seek a more qualified instructor. People that are fronting, soon run out of what they have to offer and people will/do pick up on that. [/QUOTE]

Well, maybe they will and maybe they won't. Maybe a person starts out with a good heart and gets seduced into taking the easy route of buying his way along. And then comes the organization-hopping and before you know it another 3rd guep is another 10th Dan of his own system. I remember that one of the reasons that the US Gov. took so long to intervene in the Great Depression was that they thought the US economy was "self-righting". There are STILL people who believe that today. Fact is that the US economy AND KMA need to be sheparded and managed. Theres' no automatic pilot, whatever your discipline is.  FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## iron_ox (Oct 31, 2004)

Hello all,

Disco,  

I have to disagree a bit here.  I didn't use that example because they are in the UK but becasue he is a BS artist proclaiming himself a Hapkido "dojoonim" - now as far as self-regulation and crying wolf, I believe in it big time.  I am currently trying to organize/find a venue that will allow just that.  Now, peolple may have different criteria for what makes a good instructor, but not what is Hapkido and what is not.  13 years of Taekwondo and 3 months of Chung Moo Doe (their spelling) don't equal ANY Hapkido of any kind...

Bruce hit the nail on the head with this guy, again watch that space, the guy claims to head his own Kwan, did you see who he had in for a seminar - none other than the globe trotting, grade passing Malaysian Dentist KHF "grandmaster" little Hapkido background Lim - I will bet you if the price is right, by next year, this young dojoo con artist will work some checkbook magic and poof, "legit" grades in Hapkido.

Now, does this mean we need to watch the "more legit" organizations as well, YES - there are members of these groups just as likely to get paid for rank than anywhere else.  We should not be afraid to call foul when we see it - 

Now, does it spark interest in Hapkido?  Maybe, but the frauds end that spark pretty quick when the unsuspecting public feels that Hapkido is just another rip off in the martial arts because we do not stand up and question the garbage.


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## Disco (Oct 31, 2004)

Kevin, Bruce, you'll have to forgive me a bit on this because I kind of lead you into this. You both are in strong argeement on this issue and rightly so. But unless the Hapkido world comes together and both of you feel it's a non accessible position, then it's business as usual. If the so-called legit personage within the Hapkido ranks are willing to "sell" the heritage and integrity of the discipline, what can we do. We have seen how the home office (Korea) deals with such issues. This just brings things full circle again back to the issue of an upstanding regulating American organization. You can then become disenfranchised from the other side of the ocean and conduct business as we all seem to see fit. To my way of thinking, it's the only practical solution to on ongoing problem. When something of this nature rears it's ugly head again, you would at least have the satisfaction of knowing that your house is not contaminated by this infection and so would everybody else. As it stands now, everybody in Hapkido gets infected by these actions. 

Kevin, I think you asked awhile back on how this could be done. Well to my way of thinking it's fairly easy. The caveat being that people truely want what's best for the discipline and it's students. I feel we have those people already in Masters West, Holcomb, Whalen, just to name a few. Now granted, I realize that it's sometimes difficult for people to let go of ties back to Korea, but they don't have to. They can keep their kwan attachments to their original instructor. No harm there, but in turn they have a new chance to safeguard the original tennents of Hapkido, apparently something that many have choosen to forget. I can't think of any legit instructor who would not be proud to see their students doing the right thing. As with any endeavor, it's all predicated on the first step and knowing that the time for correcting a wrong is long overdue. It can't be corrected from the inside, we see this, so it must be done from the outside. The only way from the outside is to step away and tell/show them we don't need or want them anylonger. If not, then it's still business as usual and they'll be another thread like this one down the road. 

Respectfully
Mike


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## iron_ox (Oct 31, 2004)

Hello Disco,

I agree in part, but I don't think that this can all be done in spite of the Koreans.  I think as you point out that one can keep Korean ties and still preserve the art outside of Korea - but I think this is done by quick and unrelenting self-policing of BS when any of us see it - once the real cowboys - like the one we have breifly discussed have been dealt with (closed down, whatever), then we can move to the larger organizations that are in need of dressing down.  

Again, as far as most American higher ranks, I have no personal contact and they mey well be great people, but some of the orgainzations they represent would certainly be included in my short list of large organizations that need addressing.  I think anyone here that has been a long time reader knows my position vis-a-vis the KHF (again, I DON'T know the US guys, and they may be OK - but the organizational root is a mess).  

Part of this policing process may be as simple as not recognizing the rank issued by certain groups or their parent groups, or it may grow to the need of public outcry of concern of rank and experience. 

Again, I am much more concerned with the indie cowboys that suddenly buy super-rank for now than I am trying to address internal politics of large organizations that might be guilty of rank selling.  These two groups may go hand in hand, but I think for most people's palets to would be more acceptable to go after the little perch than the great white shark for now.


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## Disco (Oct 31, 2004)

Kevin, I agree with you in principle. The problem as I see it, how can the little fish be expunged, if the great white has assigned it and indirectly protects it. The expression of cut off the snakes head and the body will die comes to mind. We have done and continue to do the unrelenting self-policing of BS when any of us see it and what has it accomplished? 
Once the real cowboys - like the one we have breifly discussed have been dealt with (closed down, whatever) -- I don't know how this can be accomplished in todays society.  Then we can move to the larger organizations that are in need of dressing down -- This also has been tackled (KHF), with again nothing accomplished. In fact there are now "two" KHF's projecting their status to the world. What about the Kido or Kido hae, whatever the proper title is, they've accepted ICHF and many feel less than comfortable with that. The large main problem, as I see it, is that all the major organizations have eastern management of some sort. You can't impart any influence on people if they don't have any respect for what you say. Again with an old saying.......'if you want something done right, do it yourself". I fully realize that my projected position will most likely fall on deaf ears, it has in the past. But eventually somebody of standing or a group of somebodies will finally reach the saturation point and say enough is enough, were being made to look like complete fools and it's past time for it to stop. 
I would just like to be around to see it happen..........


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## kwanjang (Oct 31, 2004)

iron_ox said:
			
		

> Hello Disco,
> 
> ... Part of this policing process may be as simple as not recognizing the rank issued by certain groups or their parent groups, or it may grow to the need of public outcry of concern of rank and experience.
> 
> Again, I am much more concerned with the indie cowboys that suddenly buy super-rank for now than I am trying to address internal politics of large organizations that might be guilty of rank selling.  These two groups may go hand in hand, but I think for most people's palets to would be more acceptable to go after the little perch than the great white shark for now.



Hi Kevin:
Some time ago, I received an application from a group of people wanting to have their art and rank recognized as Hap Ki Do.  After observing the documentation and accompanying video footage, I came to the conclusion that I was not watching Hap Ki Do as I knew it, but Jiu Jitsu as I DO know it.  I politely refused their request, but apparently the money that was to be made was too much to turn away for another one of our peers.

Similarly, I refuse to accept documents from a number of organizations, such as GM Porter's organization, who IMHO are not representing Hap Ki Do.  The man is good at his own art, and I respect him for that; however, I have seen a number of his certificates come to me that awarded rank in Hap Ki Do.  To me that is like a Dentist doing business as an MD.  Both are Drs, but I hate to have the Dentist perform open heart surgery on me.

By refusing to recognize such documents, I have earned the wrath of many people who paid good dollars to have these ranks.  Yet, I will not relent.

My point is this. There will always be somebody who is eager to accept more students and money.  How do you figure on stopping this?  IMHO, all we can do is the small part each of us is able to bring to the table, but stopping it altogether seems like trying to catch wind with a spoon.


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## glad2bhere (Oct 31, 2004)

Ok, now you two EightBalls need to slow down and take pity on the old guy in the room, and I'm not talking about Rudy, either!!  I actually had to print your last three posts and then highlight the salient points so that I could track where this was going!  Sheesh!! 

I think I understand where this is going and I can say that I support it, but it kinda comes back to the old story of "who will bell the cat" though I may not mean that exactly as the old Aesop fable told it. Instead, let me point out that there are a couple of major forces moving against a unifying force in Hapkido. 

One force is that people are not saying what they mean or stating the same thing as what they will support. Let me give a couple of examples. 

On E-BUDO sometime back there was a significant string on licensure and certification. Everybody agreed that there was a crying need for oversight but no one wanted someone else to do it. By this I mean that there was no concensus on government oversight, organizational oversight, national oversight, or local oversight. But everyone agreed oversight was needed. 

In like manner, everyone agreed that the martial arts would be served well by a uniform criteria for teaching, rating, ranking and so forth. No one would agree to accept the criteria of another group or personality. They did all agree that such a criteria was needed. 

Lastly everyone agreed that licensure and oversight was a good thing--- to keep the OTHER guy under control. The problem was always with the OTHER guy. 

Do I have a solution? Not unless someone comes up with the cure for the "common personality". However, I think there are some clues out there. 
For instance, right now there are five major organizations that either speak to Hapkido or subsume it to a large part under their authority. Right now I think the most viable are the USKMAF and the KMAA. I don't think the World Hapkido Federation, even though its led by my own teacher is a viable option as GM Myung tends to have room only for his own material. In like manner I don't hold hope for GM Ji as he has a poor track record regarding organizational management. Hal Whalen leads the more authentic of the KHF options and has the fact that he is not really beholding to the Korean contingent so there is an option there. The IHF (Korea) is a bit marginal and like Myung and Ji may not be very accepting of alternate Hapkido material; under their authority. There are also the kwans of Lim Hyun Su and Kim Yun Sang though again these are very style specific--- and based in Korea. 

Conclusion? For me it makes more sense to go with an existing, Western-based organization with a proven track record and work within it to shape the goals and policies to meet ones needs rather than start a new organization from scratch.  Thoughts? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## glad2bhere (Oct 31, 2004)

Dear Rudy: 

"....My point is this. There will always be somebody who is eager to accept more students and money. How do you figure on stopping this? IMHO, all we can do is the small part each of us is able to bring to the table, but stopping it altogether seems like trying to catch wind with a spoon....." 

You have captured the other side of the question--- and quite well. While we are talking about examining the people doing the certifying and licensing and testing and promoting there are those hungry folks who want something that smacks of authenticity while giving as little of themselves as possible. 

We, ourselves, are well motivated and willing to make sacrifices, but the general population we have to deal with don't necessarily share those qualities. How do we address the very human tendency to want the best image with as little sacrifice and work as possible? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## glad2bhere (Oct 31, 2004)

Dear Rudy: 

"....My point is this. There will always be somebody who is eager to accept more students and money. How do you figure on stopping this? IMHO, all we can do is the small part each of us is able to bring to the table, but stopping it altogether seems like trying to catch wind with a spoon....." 

You have captured the other side of the question--- and quite well. While we are talking about examining the people doing the certifying and licensing and testing and promoting there are those hungry folks who want something that smacks of authenticity while giving as little of themselves as possible. 

We, ourselves, are well motivated and willing to make sacrifices, but the general population we have to deal with don't necessarily share those qualities. How do we address the very human tendency to want the best image with as little sacrifice and work as possible? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## glad2bhere (Oct 31, 2004)

Dear Rudy: 

"....My point is this. There will always be somebody who is eager to accept more students and money. How do you figure on stopping this? IMHO, all we can do is the small part each of us is able to bring to the table, but stopping it altogether seems like trying to catch wind with a spoon....." 

You have captured the other side of the question--- and quite well. While we are talking about examining the people doing the certifying and licensing and testing and promoting there are those hungry folks who want something that smacks of authenticity while giving as little of themselves as possible. 

We, ourselves, are well motivated and willing to make sacrifices, but the general population we have to deal with don't necessarily share those qualities. How do we address the very human tendency to want the best image with as little sacrifice and work as possible? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Disco (Oct 31, 2004)

Bruce, I must confess my ignorance as to the scope of either the KMAA or the USKMAF. I was under the assumption that they are general KMA based. I think it would be more advantageous to have an organization dedicated to just hapkido. Bringing such teachers as Rudy, West and the other's mentioned to the table, to establish a new entity without any possible prior constrants getting involved. I mean if countries can sit and agree on situations, that involve way more than an agreed constitution for the betterment of hapkido, then surely this could come about through these fine gentlemen. I realize that I am presuming upon these folks and that is not my intent. I am using their names because to me they represent the pinnacle of how senior practicioners/instructors should conduct themselves. I have met Whalen and Holcomb, talked, listened and watched them on the mat. I have not had the honor of meeting Rudy or Master West, but their reputation precedes them. One of these days, perhaps the spring fling in Jackson, I'll have the pleasure to meet with them, also yourself and Kevin. 

Respectfully
Mike


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## kwanjang (Oct 31, 2004)

Bruce writes:
"On E-BUDO sometime back there was a significant string on licensure and certification. Everybody agreed that there was a crying need for oversight but no one wanted someone else to do it. By this I mean that there was no concensus on government oversight, organizational oversight, national oversight, or local oversight. But everyone agreed oversight was needed. 

 In like manner, everyone agreed that the martial arts would be served well by a uniform criteria for teaching, rating, ranking and so forth. No one would agree to accept the criteria of another group or personality. They did all agree that such a criteria was needed. 

 Lastly everyone agreed that licensure and oversight was a good thing--- to keep the OTHER guy under control. The problem was always with the OTHER guy."

Hello Bruce et al:
While I agree that something is needed to deal with the problems of certification etc., there is more to that than may be obvious.  For example, JR, Hal, myself,and most of the others mentioned are all interested in doing the best we can to preserve good Hap Ki Do; however, there is quite a difference between what I do and what JR does in terms of what we deem important in deciding what is good.  I don't think either one of us would give up the freedom of making our choice, because it is based on what we believe in.

I don't even view this as being a bad thing.  I actually believe it is good for the art.  The problem is that I for one base my decision on gut feeling PLUS what I see.  How am I to write this down so someone else can make sense out of it in order to yea or nay someone's application.  To be sure, in the case I used as an example, I actually corresponded with JR about this, but I am here to tell you that I would have made up my own mind on it if we had NOT agreed.

Like I said, I believe those who truly care about our art DO examine and make inquiries even as we speak.  On the other hand, I would not think anything less of JR if he DID accept GM. Porter's certificates.  I happen to know he does not accept many... but that is just an example of what I mean.  I believe JR does his best, and I think (at least I hope) that JR feels the same about my decisions despite our differences.  WE both believe the other has the best interest at heart, and I for one am willing to accept the decision of someone I trust even if it is not consistent with my own feelings.

Over the years, I have come to know fine people such as Hal, Holcombe, JR, and a number of others, and I give them the leeway they have earned with respect to Hap Ki Do.  It is not necessary for me to agree on EVERYTHING they do.  I trust their judgement.  

Similarly, a lot of people will criticize me for supporting GM Seo, because of his support for JP.  I do not agree with his decision, but I will not let it stand in my way of learning from a really good teacher.  I am also too damn old and stubborn to try and please my other friends to make sure I don't offend them with my choice of teacher.  I have been around the block often enough to know from whom I can learn something, and while I do not agree with everything that man does... I know he is a hard working martial artist who gets on the mat and proves his worth time and time again.  

For me, I don't need a knight in shining armor who makes no mistakes.  My need is to have a Master who is willing and able to share his art with me, and I appreciate that despite the fact it gives me some headaches.  We are human, we make judgements, and some live by them mistakes and all.  We can NOT please everyone, and that is where I think the problem of a "super org" lies.  WHO is to be the one who knows all????  Who decides which art is pure??? Who decides who can join and be part of it???  

I am sure I am not qualified to make those decisions: however, in my little corner of the world (NKMAA) I do my best to keep a clean house.


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## iron_ox (Nov 1, 2004)

Hello all,

Kwanjang, you make some very good points, and as a base for the argument of how to regulate, simply not accepting a certificate is a great way to do it.  Aslo, as you mentioned, if something looks more like another art, then that is how you call it, I think this is very diplomatic, and frankly probably quite kind to those that are not really Hapkido trying to get rank.

Do you (or any of you out there) examine the actual training background that a person has?  I again was wondering through a few sites and found a well known guy who does just cane stuff, he has about 8 sentences dedicated to the training that he has done, and about 2 pages about all the tournaments and Soke/Master of the year titles he has been given.  Here is an example of the type of stuff that gets me...this guy got a Tang Soo Do black belt in 1979 (under an American Movie Star TSD style) then states in the next line that in 1983 "while preparing to test for 3rd Dan Hapkido..." - so no mention of Hapkido through 1979 then poof, four years later, testing for third dan Hapkido - yeah, right.  This is the stuff that we as a group need to be aware of and help to inform the public - or given the guts, address the questionable grades ourselves.


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## MDFJ (Nov 1, 2004)

Dear Kevin et al

My name is Marc, I am the gentleman from the UK you have been referring to in some of your posts.

Firstly... although I appreciate and thank you Kevin, for your discretion in keeping any personal information referring to me directly,  to PM personal messages, I feel a little offended to read such comments about me on a public forum from someone who has never met me or spoken to me.  Other people may not have realised it was me you were referring to, but I did.

You assume to judge me and call me a BS artist, a con artist, a fraud, and suggest I am a poor quality "full of himself" instructor who rips people off  & Buys grades?
How can you begin to believe or assume any of that without ever having met or spoken with me?
I appreciate your main point may well be based more into whether I had the right to use the name "Hapkido" in my own style of Martial Art...?  

I presume this would not have been said about me if the style I taught was called  "Jung Shin Karate"  ?

I apologise if you feel offended by me doing this, I do not like to offend people, however I would prefer we discuss this choice of name rather than you insult me without knowing me.
I would be happy to open a conversation with you to discuss your opinions of me or my choices, but I would prefer you reserve from publicly slating me until you know me or have all facts correct. 

To fill in some of the Gaps and inaccuracies of what you stated are my credentials:
Despite not wanting to admit it, I am 30 Years old
I have 15 Years TKD  (ITF)
I have a total of 23 years in MA's including training / grading in:
Judo
Ju-Jitsu
Chung Moo Doe (Not MY spelling - as Spelt by Master Kim who's style it was - I have copies of newsletters etc with that spelling) 
Aiki-Ju-Jitsu  (1st Dan - 2000)
TaeKwonDo (ITF)  (3rd Dan - 1995)
Kuk Sool Hapkido (2nd Dan - 2004)
I have been teaching for nearly 15 years, and opened my first school 11 years ago.
All my Grades have been obtained through Correct physical Assessment, I have always had to pay a grading fee, but have never "Bought" a grade, and never will.  

I dislike politics, I feel there any many great people in the World of Martial Arts, and they will all have varied opinions (as some posts here have testified to) I do not believe that any one group or person will ever be able to control any complete section of the community for this very reason.   So I would prefer to take a similar opinion to that of Kwang Jang Nim Rudy Timmerman in accepting people for their differences, respecting them even if you do not personally agree with them.

I do not agree with what you have done or what you say, but I respect you as a human being, and as a practitioner of the martial arts, you may be highly proficient, you may not, to me it would not matter if you were a white belt or grandmaster, if you seek to better yourself and help others in the process,   i respect you.   Although I do not believe what you state about me to be accurate, I at least appreciate that you care about the integrity of what you do enough to raise your voice.

But please consider my point..  Just because I do not do what you do, I do not walk the same path as you...    Does that make you right and me wrong?
Maybe you have a problem with the choice of name for my style...  as if it in some way disrespects what you do..   

For someone to suggest that my students would leave me to go and find a better more qualified instructor is also insulting, I do my best to provide my students with good quality instruction, I am not a commercial instructor, i teach in my spare time, because I love to teach, I charge students between (the £UK equivalent of) $4-8 per 1.5 hr - 2.5 hr class, simply to cover running costs / hall rental.  I produce good students with good technique and good morals, and all senior grades are examined by independent examiners.  We are members of a couple of non-political groups and i regularly have visiting instructors to my school as well as taking students to other Martial Art events, both Hapkido and other styles.   I have never had a student leave because they believe they are being taught bogus material, inferior material being misled or swindled in any way, I am not a full-time professional instructor, but I am professional in my conduct.  I feel people should know me and visit me before making such a judgement.  I am not a big fish, but I do not try to be, I just want to swim well, I have 40+ students with another school opening soon with 20+ interested already.  

I will explain why I chose to use the art name "Hapkido"

Painting is an Art...  renaissance, impressionism, etc are "styles" of that "Art" 
Karate is an Art....  Shotokan, Goju Ryu, Wado Ryu etc are "Styles" of that "Art"
Hapkido is an Art.. the many many Kwans are "styles" of that art..
Even the main stream "Hapkido" people differ in their belief of Choi or Ji as true founder...  I personally think they Both contributed to make the "Hapkido" arts what they are today.  

I know of a person in the UK who is a strict Choi supporter, who believes any other type of Hapkido (even Ji's Sin Moo Hapkido) is NOT Hapkido.  

Without giving you my life story or explaining the politics I have been witness / victim to, I decided to walk my own path and create my own style...
I designed a complete Syllabus, completely original forms/hyung and grading syllabus.  

My Main  background in MA, was in Aiki-Ju-Jitsu and TaeKwonDo with more of a lean towards the Korean Side.
My heart and approach to Martial Arts is that of Korean Styles, I even study Korean Hangul and can translate to a reasonable standard.

Does Hapkido not have roots in Aiki-Ju-Jitsu (Daito-Ryu)  ?   
Does TaeKwon Do not have roots in Shotokan Karate ?

The Japanese influence from the many conflicts / occupations are evident in Korean Martial Art Styles.

I know the history followers will argue about exactly where the roots are, but I think many do accept the Aiki-ju-Jitsu link / Influence to Hapkido..

So what I did and what I developed was taking similar roots and a similar path to that of "Hapkido" arts..  I do not in any way claim to be as great or Worthy as Choi or Ji, I have not awarded myself 10th Dan, I do not call myself Grandmaster, I use the term "founder of the style" simply because that is the truth, i did create the  Style I teach..   I was given the grade I hold (4th Dan) by members of the groups I have been affiliated with, it was their opinion as a reflection of the grades I held in other styles, my time serving martial arts, and my abilities.   I have since been offered 5th Dan by a group instigated from my own students, I politely refused the grade. 

So to use "Hapkido" or not...?   Had I used a name such as Marc-Kwan-Ki-Jitsu-Do or a totally English name like "Marc-Defence" I could have been accused by people of teaching someone else's Technique / Style under my own name, trying to pass it off as my own when it was not.  I do not claim to have re-invented the wheel.  
I used a Korean Name to categorise or describe the "Art" that I teach (Hapkido), I then chose a Korean Name to specify my "style" of that Art  (Jung Shin)  

"Hapkido" described the principles, appearance and general feel of the "Art" I do..   I named it Jung Shin because of my belief in Jung Shin Philosophies, and teaching Mental development as well as Physical Development.

So I had to make a choice, I did, and I knew some people would accept it, and some would not... whichever choice I made..   Some would and have applauded me for having the courage to walk my own path, others have questioned why I do not stick with those traditional Arts/Styles...  

This posed the question "Who gave you the right to start a new style...?  " 
Well who has ever given anyone the right to start a new style?, and if they did, were they authorised to do so?     
Who Gave Bruce Lee the Right to create Jeet Kune Do?
Who Gave Choi Hong Hi the right to create TaeKwon Do?  (Apologies to any Kukkiwon / WTF if you do not recognise Gen Choi as founder . this is just to make point)
Many "Modern" arts, TaeKwon Do, Hapkido, Jeet Kune Do, even Aikido  who has ever given anyone the right?

Now I am NOT saying that I consider myself in the same class as these people, I have no plans on global domination or telling everyone "my way is the best"  That is not me..  This is just the way I like to teach, and it teaches what I believe in based on my modest 20+ years in Martial Arts.  

No one questions the "right" of these people because history has proved them to be great people and their styles have been enjoyed by many around the world...  
I am sure there are others like me, who have walked their own path in a small and modest way and passed into obscurity.. Not because they were poor or failed, but simply they had no desire or ambition to grow beyond what they had.     Global Politics and arguments amongst power-hungry people as to who is legitimate and who is not has led to so many fragmented splinter groups and styles that more and more people are deciding to walk their own path, not for Glory but to save money on Headache tablets.  ITF style TaekwonDo had already fragmented into hundreds of groups in the UK alone, now the entire ITF Headquarters has been split 3 ways since Gen Choi passed away.

Having made my decision, and further asking these questions about choice of name, I proceeded to seek opinions from teachers and Masters of other "Hapkido" styles..  I have had many in depth conversations with many people, and have personally met with several "Hapkido" teachers and Masters, all with different Kwan affiliation / style etc..     
Although they see differences between my own style and theirs, I also see differences between each of their styles, However each one of them confers that the style I teach is a "hapkido" Art, that resembles much of what they teach themselves.  All of these Hapkido people are recognised by and affiliated to either / and or Both,  the KHF and/or Kido Hae.  

I think the question about Hapkido being a "catch-all" or generic term is interesting and open to many opinions...  I personally feel that there are so many styles of "Hapkido" arts as time progresses this generic term will be accepted as such..  For example, 
If I was a mainly Chinese art Practitioner and developed  Jung Shin Kung Fu...  Would the other Kung Fu people consider me wrong for using "Kung Fu" in the name?  
If I was a mainly Japanese art Practitioner and developed  Jung Shin Karate...  Would the other Karate people consider me wrong for using "Karate" in the name?  

I do not believe they would, as those generic Art names have been in existence for much longer and have so many established styles no one can claim rights over the name....   

To finish my post, I would speak directly to Kevin and anyone else who has issue with me or the choices I have made..

By all means please converse with me and disagree with me...
You have your opinions and I have mine... 
Whether we can agree, disagree, develop and understanding or Not......
Can we please be, as Martial Artists should be...  respectful of each other even in disagreement...  
And not label someone publicly with offensive words when there is no basis, evidence or reason to do so.

If any part of my post has upset or caused offence to anyone, I apologise most sincerely, I am fully respectful of anyone and everyone who chooses to live their lives in a decent way.  These are simply my Opinions FWIW on the subject in discussion.

I thank you for your time and look forward to hearing from you.

Marc


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## Black Belt FC (Nov 1, 2004)

I totally agreed with kwanjang on association and certification. My school and I are associated with GM Seo and proud to be a part of his dojang family, what he does with other people will not affect my relationship with them. I join them for their wealth of knowledge and commitment to excellence; moreover, GM Seo has authentic and affective techniques to share.



On the issue of certification I personally can care less if people do not accept any credentials, I personally feel that the mat is where the ability credibility should begin and end. 

Lugo


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## ajs1976 (Nov 1, 2004)

iron_ox said:
			
		

> Hello all,
> 
> Do you (or any of you out there) examine the actual training background that a person has? I again was wondering through a few sites and found a well known guy who does just cane stuff, he has about 8 sentences dedicated to the training that he has done, and about 2 pages about all the tournaments and Soke/Master of the year titles he has been given. Here is an example of the type of stuff that gets me...this guy got a Tang Soo Do black belt in 1979 (under an American Movie Star TSD style) then states in the next line that in 1983 "while preparing to test for 3rd Dan Hapkido..." - so no mention of Hapkido through 1979 then poof, four years later, testing for third dan Hapkido - yeah, right. This is the stuff that we as a group need to be aware of and help to inform the public - or given the guts, address the questionable grades ourselves.


I do look into the training of individuals, but based on a short blurb on a website, I try not to jump to conclusions.

*



			Who was your most influential instructor?
		
Click to expand...

*


> *Master Neil Citron, also an instructor in the Chuck Norris System, probably had the biggest influence on me in traditional martial arts. After teaching at the school for a while, he decided to enhance his training by learning some of the other martial arts. When he came back to the dojo, I wanted to study with him because of the variety of styles he taught. In fact, when I moved up to Lake Tahoe in 1976, I continued to commute to LA for his instruction, and as a result, received my 1st Dan in April of 1978. *
> 
> *My school, North Lake Tahoe Tae Kwon Do, is based on the principles of focusing on one style, but exposing the student to different martial arts. *


*He was learning the Chuck Norris System, but he doesn't say what else Master Citron was teaching him. He also doesnot state what his 1st Dan was in. Could it be in Hapkido? If it is, is '83 to early for a 3rd Dan test?*

*(I don't know why that last part is in bold, but I can't figure out how to fix it)*


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## Disco (Nov 1, 2004)

Marc, first welcome to Martial Talk. Second, sorry that your initial encounter was on less than agreeable conditions. I respectfully bow to your convictions and for wanting to present yourself to those that have formulated a perseption of you. I fear that I am guilty of such a perseption. I was the one who used the term "full of himself". I based that solely on the uniform being worn and not on the person. For that, please accept my appology. The information of your post was delivered with professionalism. A lesser person would have possibly been more inclined to cast stones and name calling, but you conducted yourself with respect. A practical application of some of the tennents of the martial arts. I hope that you will consider to continue posting and joining other discussions that interest you. 

Respectfully  :asian: 
Mike


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## ajs1976 (Nov 1, 2004)

Marc,

We did you decide to start your own system?  From reading your post, I can see why you decided to call it Hapkido, but not why you started you own system.


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## MDFJ (Nov 1, 2004)

Disco said:
			
		

> Marc, first welcome to Martial Talk. Second, sorry that your initial encounter was on less than agreeable conditions. I respectfully bow to your convictions and for wanting to present yourself to those that have formulated a perseption of you. I fear that I am guilty of such a perseption. I was the one who used the term "full of himself". I based that solely on the uniform being worn and not on the person. For that, please accept my appology. The information of your post was delivered with professionalism. A lesser person would have possibly been more inclined to cast stones and name calling, but you conducted yourself with respect. A practical application of some of the tennents of the martial arts. I hope that you will consider to continue posting and joining other discussions that interest you.
> 
> Respectfully  :asian:
> Mike



Mike, Thank you for your post, and I appreciate your kind words.  I agree with you about the suit    , I designed it, made it, and wore it for about six months, mainly only on special occasions as a sort of dress uniform.. I started to think it was a little too "showy" So, I now wear a simple Black suit... 

Your apology is gratefully and graciously accepted, I hold no grudges or ill feelings.      I know it is easy to judge a book by it's cover, I would be lying if I said I have never been guilty of it myself.  I am pleased that you were willing to open the book and have a read with an open mind even if our opinions are not always the same. 

If the other members here are of the same character as yourself, I would be very pleased and Honoured to continue to join in on discussions here.

Thank you again.

Respectfully 

Marc


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## MDFJ (Nov 1, 2004)

doc clean said:
			
		

> Marc,
> 
> We did you decide to start your own system?  From reading your post, I can see why you decided to call it Hapkido, but not why you started you own system.



Doc, 

Thank you for your message.

It would be a very long story to go into all of my reasons..  
In short, I was teaching two different styles at the time, I suffered with political situations as have many, and was frustrated with what was happening not just to me, but more importantly to my students...   

I had spent a significant portion of my life studying various martial art styles from many different instructors and masters, I felt all had much to offer but none that completely gave me what I wanted to give my students..    

So, as with anyone who develops their own style, whether they are Internationally reognised grandmaster or an obscure church hall instructor, I wanted to share what I had learnt with others in the way I believed in...  I do not want international fame and fortune, I simply want to teach what I passionately believe in..  I don't for one second believe that my way is better than anything else..  Neither do i think (or other Martial artists that know me) that it is any-way of a lesser quality..   right or wrong... It's just my way.. 

I created the forms/hyung and complete Syllabus and had it sanctioned and approved by the people I respected (my own instructors & masters) and the groups I affiliated with, and the story began....  

Marc


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## whalen (Nov 1, 2004)

Welcome aboard Marc. You impressed me you are the first person to write a post longer than Bruce ha-ha Just kidding.

As someone that has been in Hapkido longer than out of Hapkido, My ears perk up when i here of a new founder of a new system where Hapkido is in the name.

Do your students really care what you call what you teach ? If it is able to save their life when someone is trying to slash their throat " no  survival comes first " then they will thank you for teaching something that will save their life this is part of being an instructor. Most students do not care what association you belong to or whom you are affiliated with You are the person that molds an changes their life's.

But choosing the name you did you will receive criticism it is part what happens .So be prepared it comes with the Job.

You do deserve credit and respect for having " The Gut's To defend In what you believe" :asian: 

Hal whalen


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## MDFJ (Nov 1, 2004)

whalen said:
			
		

> Welcome aboard Marc. You impressed me you are the first person to write a post longer than Bruce ha-ha Just kidding.
> 
> As someone that has been in Hapkido longer than out of Hapkido, My ears perk up when i here of a new founder of a new system where Hapkido is in the name.
> 
> ...



Dear Master Hal Whalen

Thank you for your kind words, Although I have never met you personally, I know you are a very well respected member of the Hapkido community.

I totally agree with your point about the name and affiliation being a little irrelevant, in the same way people say "it's on the mat that counts"  well wether it's on the mat, or on the street in a situation I hope and wished people never found themselves in... It is the value of what is taught which matters most.   

I apologise to Bruce if I have stolen a record for post-length, it was quite long..and I apologise to anyone that fell asleep reading it..     
I will continue on with bite-size contributions..

I knew full well that by walking my own path I would receive a mix of opinions, and specifically with my choice of name, I knew some would accept and some would criticise whichever name I had chosen..

I personally stand strong on my own beliefs, and always try to have openness and respect for everyone else's...

Thank you again 

Marc


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## iron_ox (Nov 1, 2004)

Hello all,

Thank you for some clarification to your rank.  I still have no idea why you call what you do Hapkido.  Hapkido is not a clearing house word, it is the name of an art.  I mean, hey, feel free to do whatever you wish, but in my opinion, it is not Hapkido.  Again, I say ALL this with due respect, but Hapkido is derived from the Choi - Ji - tradition (if you trained as far as the Ji tradition) - there is no such thing as "Hapkido Arts" this is an invention of another member here that tries to prove that Hapkido existed prior to Choi with Chinese influence, but has never been able to substanciate a single claim.

The original intent of this thread to have opinions of members about peope using the term Hapkido when they do not have extensive backgrounds in it, claiming their own styles, etc.  Personally, I think it would have been great to call what you do Marc Defense, or whatever, but the label Hapkido has virtually nothing to do with the background you submitted.  Would you feel comfortable calling what you do Shotokan?  Of course not, because it represents a form of martial arts you are not graded in.  To have a second dan from one Hapkido group and start your own Hapkido style is inconceivable to me because you simply do not have to prerequisite background in Hapkido, the art of Choi (or Ji, however you see it).

Now, you do not call what you do Jung Shin Kwan, but Jung Shin Hapkido - meaning you have formulated "a new" Hapkido.  Now, again with all respect, I doubt it.  Even Ji Han Jae didn't do this until he had trained in Hapkido for some 31 years (1949 -1980 advent of Sin Moo - I believe that is correct).  You received a second dan this year.

Why didn't you train (or associate) with one of the many Hapkido organizations in the UK?  There is Choi traditional - in International Hapkido (was GBHA - UK's first Hapkido organization - 1971), the KHF is represented, as well as some smaller quasi independent groups with links to instructors here in the states.  Why did you choose to link up with a travelling instructor instead?

OK enough here, again this is said with all respect to you as a person Mr. Jones, but as a person with 25 years of my life so far invested in Hapkido, I am tenacious when I here the name associated with other training.  Sorry if I offended you.


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## iron_ox (Nov 1, 2004)

Hello all,

Dojunim really does not mean founder but more "keeper of the way".


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## kwanjang (Nov 1, 2004)

Hello Marc:
Thank you for sharing with us your convictions.  I thought your letter was a refreshing alternative from what I have seen so many others do... sling more mud.  Like Hal said, you may wish you had called your art different.  I am sure that he is correct when he says you will attract more criticism.  How you deal with it makes all the difference, and so far your approach is an indication that you have absorbed that part of the arts which eludes many.

Kevin:
Please call me Rudy.  Reason for my "handle" on this forum is that I had no ideas on how to sign up on this forum when I first joined in.  Regarding your question.  Yes, I do try and look into the background of people who join NKMAA; however, I'll be the first one to admit that this is a formidable task that most often does not result in clear and convincing evidence.  

I could, like Bruce seems to do, spend countless hours of research, but that is just not me.  I love to teach and I love to help people; but, research is just not my bag, it is simply too time consuming.  Hence, I do rely heavily on my gut feeling and whatever information I can glean.  That is precisely why I am convinced that however admirable the idea of a super org may be... the reality is that it is VERY difficult to implement.

As far as trying to "be kind" to those whom I cannot accept.  I just feel there is no need for me to get heavy on anyone.  Whatever I have to say to them probably means nothing to them anyways, so I would just waste my time.  At my age, time is too valuable to waste on trying to convert folks who are bent on obtaining more worthless paper. I DO however applaud those who are willing (and perhaps more able) to spend such time, and I DO whatever I can to assist in your worthy cause.


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## glad2bhere (Nov 1, 2004)

Dear Folks: 

I'm sorry to be so dense about this string, but I am having avery difficult time getting things to add-up and I am not sure if its me and my view of things or if its other people. A little help would be appreciated. 

Seems that Marcs' website precipitated the discussion. I could use some help here. 
a.) What is it that makes what Marc is doing "hapkido" other than simply selecting and applying the name. For instance, Rudy teaches Kong Shin Bup which is arguably related to the Choi tradition through the Kuk Sool line. I don't think he actually identifies it as Hapkido though my sense is that he could easily make the connectuion if he chose. Am I to understand Marc has some similar heritage in his background? 

b.) Have we been able to organize some overall criteria for determining if an art created from scratch can claim the label "hapkido"? By this I mean that if, say according to what I said in a previous post the criteria of a person scavenged from other arts would coincidentally abide by all Three Principles of Hapkido, would that art automatically have a claim to being Hapkido? 

c.) Putting Marc to one side, were a person to simply assume the label "hapkido" because of name recognition and leniency in accountability what might other practitioners of more "legit" hapkido arts have for recourse? 

Anyone? Comments? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## MDFJ (Nov 2, 2004)

Kevin, 

I thank you for your post and for your PM personal message, I accept that your intention was not to offend me personally and I gratefully and graciously accept your apology.    

Rudy, Kwang Jang

I thank you for your Kind Words, Like with Master Whalen, I know you are a very Highly Regarded Master and your very elequant post was very much appreciated.  

My very best regards to all.

Marc


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## iron_ox (Nov 3, 2004)

Hello all,

Will anyone that has the most current issue of TaeKwonDo Times (the current one has some Kuk Sool Won guy on the front cover) - please read the srticle about Klaus Schumacher on Oh Do Kwan Hapkido and tell me if I'm reading that right or what?

I am going to reread it before firing off another post...


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## whalen (Nov 3, 2004)

iron_ox said:
			
		

> Hello all,
> 
> Will anyone that has the most current issue of TaeKwonDo Times (the current one has some Kuk Sool Won guy on the front cover) - please read the srticle about Klaus Schumacher on Oh Do Kwan Hapkido and tell me if I'm reading that right or what?
> 
> I am going to reread it before firing off another post...



I was hoping someone brought this up I read the article twice to make sure it wasn't my imagination

Does TKDT even read what is submitted to them ? what you have to do is go to this guys website it is as good as the article.

If my memory serves me correct this guy was involved with KiHAP run by Ed Annabelle (spelled Wrong). And some other people in one of those you promote me and i promote you meetings.

The question is Where did he come from ?

Hal Whalen


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## American HKD (Nov 3, 2004)

Hal 

I think Ed Annibale learned from Schumacher for a bit but I don't know any details.


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## SmellyMonkey (Nov 3, 2004)

Holy crap!  This guy is 11th degree!  

 Here is a picture of him showing off his fighting skills. (Looks like he and Prof. Marty Cale are great buds.) http://www.usmartialartshalloffame.com/usmapics/thumbs/usma0032.jpg

 Here's his website (you'd think such a high-ranking super-grandmaster would not use a free website service like angelfire.)
http://www.angelfire.com/ks/wmal/page46.html


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## ajs1976 (Nov 3, 2004)

> There are 13 levels of black belt (dan) in the educational system of Oh DO Kwan Hapkido


 towards the bottom of page 52.

I thought KMAs, including hapkido, only went up to 10?


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## Disco (Nov 3, 2004)

I really didn't intend to delve into this subject, but after looking at this site and especially the uniform, I couldn't help my self.  :mst: 

http://www.angelfire.com/ks/wmal/page19.html

Not sure about the technique being shown.... Water principle or Give me your Cheetos principle?..... :idunno:


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## Black Belt FC (Nov 3, 2004)

Greetings,

Saw the website, credentials, uniforms, ranking and every other thing that is questionable .................SCARY


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## whalen (Nov 4, 2004)

Thats the thing if you are the founder you can call your self any rank you want, Its a good thing some of the others do not know about this.It is in the "founder manual Bylaws" page 7.

Did you know there are more 10th Dans living in America than, in japan korea, Okinawa combined we are the tenth dan capital of the world and all this time those of us whom took the time to travel to korea wasted our time. I am sure we should have saved a lot of money and trained with some of these 10th dans. Most of us would be 10th dans by now.........

Lets all agree on a new post listing all of the 10th dans in your area ?

Hal Whalen artyon:


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## iron_ox (Nov 4, 2004)

Hello all,

I spent some time reading the article in TaeKwonDo Times again, as well as following some of the links here - I've known about Schumacher for quite some time.  I had gone to his site and was also amazed at how all the listed certification sites he spoke of either came back to him, OR didn't seem to have him registered at all.  Notice that the certificates are almost unreadable - the only signature that is legible is from a "John Smith" - very creative huh?

Love the pictures in the article - what kind of sword work is that? Notice that the sword that the student is weilding is one of those super cheap Pakistani stamp blades available on ebay for $5, and he looks like he's using a Tai Chi sword -

Funny enough, he claims to incorporate all the techniques of Choi - that would be better than his best students - who never learned them all...maybe we should inquire how many that is...

We are discussing some minimum standards for different grades - how about a minimum standard by which Hapkido is defined?


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## The Kai (Nov 4, 2004)

First off, I'm not a Hapkido Guy-But did'nt the techniques from the article seem a little awkward.  Also, how the hell did this guy get a article written about himself??

Todd


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## Paul B (Nov 4, 2004)

That is so very,very disturbing. I want to send all people like this off on a rocket to the sun.


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## iron_ox (Nov 4, 2004)

The Kai said:
			
		

> First off, I'm not a Hapkido Guy-But did'nt the techniques from the article seem a little awkward.  Also, how the hell did this guy get a article written about himself??
> 
> Todd




Hello Todd,

TaeKwonDo Times has a "pay and play" policy - if you get an ad in the back, you get so many little "blurb" stories per year, if you pay $5000, you own the cover, 7 pages inside and 300 copies of that issue, do you really think they interview most of these goofs?


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## The Kai (Nov 5, 2004)

Kevin

Probably not the best of all policies?
Todd


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## iron_ox (Nov 5, 2004)

The Kai said:
			
		

> Kevin
> 
> Probably not the best of all policies?
> Todd




Hello Todd,

Frankly, I'm firing off an email today to the editor in chief of TKDT.  We may not all get along here always on the board, but at least we seem to have a somewhat consistant idea of what Hapkido is.  A clown like Schumacher just screws up the works for a lot of us that really care about how this art is perceived as an art...


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## whalen (Nov 5, 2004)

iron_ox said:
			
		

> Hello Todd,
> 
> Frankly, I'm firing off an email today to the editor in chief of TKDT.  We may not all get along here always on the board, but at least we seem to have a somewhat consistant idea of what Hapkido is.  A clown like Schumacher just screws up the works for a lot of us that really care about how this art is perceived as an art...



If enough people contact them and tell them they may stop purchasing the Magazine in protest maybe they will listen ?

It might be worth a shot.

Hal Whalen


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## iron_ox (Nov 5, 2004)

I'm game for that...


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## howard (Nov 5, 2004)

whalen said:
			
		

> If enough people contact them and tell them they may stop purchasing the Magazine in protest maybe they will listen ?
> 
> It might be worth a shot.
> 
> Hal Whalen


sounds like a decent idea... could anybody post the e-mail address? thanks


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## whalen (Nov 5, 2004)

iron_ox said:
			
		

> I'm game for that...



"Remember united we stand devided we fall"

Hal


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## glad2bhere (Nov 5, 2004)

Just an aside..... 

I understand that people are a bit annoyed at things, but you also may want to include in your e-mails what it is that you want to see, and what you, yourself, would be willing to do to contribute to the magazine if they follow your original suggestion. There is a rewason that they print crap..... when crap is all they get, right? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## iron_ox (Nov 6, 2004)

Hello all,

Here is some contact info for TaeKwonDo Times:

Greg Ryman Editor in Chief

gregryman@taekwondotimes.com

_EDITORIALS AND READERS FORUMS
We welcome comments and suggestions regarding the content of TKDT, or opinions and comments about the martial art community. We reserve the right to edit all editorials and letters. Letters must include your name and address. Direct Editorial or Readers Forum departments._ 

Here is some of the summission requirements:

_Students, instructors and masters from Korean, Japanese, Chinese Filipino or any legitimate system are invited to submit articles, news releases, tournament results, etc. to TKDT. _ 

any legitimate system...I think this might be a good area to start rippin...


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## iron_ox (Nov 11, 2004)

Hello all, 

I want to swing this in another direction for a second.  Looking at another forum, the conversation came up about distance learning courses.  Love them or hate them, not really the issue yet. 

Someone said they were looking at one offered by the following group:

www.worldhapkido.com 

They have a program done by a guy named Choe. Now, another poster mentioned that this guy was in jail for a 2001 manslaughter conviction, here is a link to that:

http://tkdtutor.com/04Students/Goals/BlackBelt.htm

QUOTE:

6/7/2001, by Noel S. Brady, reporter for Eastside Journal in Washington State

A martial arts master yesterday struck a plea bargain with prosecutors and admitted to wielding a samurai sword that caused the death of a Bellevue business man.

Hui Son Choe, 40, pleaded guilty to first-degree manslaughter for the death of 37-year-old Ki Gol Lee, which occurred after an argument between the two men turned violent.

King County Prosecutor's spokesman Dan Donohoe said the state will recommend a judge sentence Lee to 9½ years in prison. A sentencing hearing is scheduled for June 29.

At the time of the April 2000 melee, Choe lived in Spanaway and ran a martial arts school in Federal Way. A seventh-degree black belt in Tae Kwon Do, Choe also was well respected as a master and innovator of Hap Ki Do, a lesser-known martial art about which he's written a book.

A Korean immigrant who helped other Koreans secure home and business loans, Lee showed up at Choe's dojo and confronted him in a parking lot there, prosecutors say. Witnesses told police the two began arguing, but a fight broke out after Choe rushed Lee with a drawn samurai sword.

The fight ended after Lee sustained a 2½-foot-long gash to his inner right thigh, severing his femoral artery. He died early the next morning at Harborview Medical Center.

Detectives followed a trail of blood into Choe's school. Inside, they found a bloody samurai sword and blood-spattered clothing that matched witness' descriptions of the sword fighter.

They later arrested Choe at his Spanaway home.

Donohoe said it's still unclear what the two men where arguing about. Prosecutors originally charged Choe with second-degree murder, but that charge was reduced for lack of evidence, he said.

``We felt there were some proof problems to get murder-two,'' he said.



A little more checking and yep, this guy is in jail for 9.5 years - yet this sleazy organization still sells his course, and says that Choe' "personal agenda" no longer allows him to assist with online courses - right because he's locked up!

Now, why do I call this organization sleazy?  Becasue there is no mention anywhere that this money from this program is going to help the family of Mr. Lee - the man who was killed.  Love to here from anyone connected with these lowlifes.  Get the word out, and maybe this organization can go bye-bye.

Comments?


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## ajs1976 (Nov 11, 2004)

ajs1976 there = doc clean here

Well, I wasted $20.  I'm glad I found out before I spent any more money.

Even though the website mentions Choe's books, an email I got after signing up said they were using Master Jung's videos for the courses.


-----

I'm not doing very good in my search for Hapkido training.  First there is the information about WHA.  Then last night I drove buy a dojang that teaches TKD and Hapkido, only to see for rent signs in the windows.


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## iron_ox (Nov 11, 2004)

Hello Andy,

Thanks for the link from the other forum - this made me see red - if Choe's stuff is no longer sold, they should take down all the links to his material, I think.

Where is the US are you, perhaps we can rustle up a group for you.


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## ajs1976 (Nov 11, 2004)

Pittsburgh, PA.

I just started TKD a few months ago, and Hapkido is included as part of the curriculum.  It seems that just techniqes are covered.  I'm looking for something that will let me take at a little further.  I plan on continuing with TKD for a while.

Through google, I have found the following places:

www.kiski-karate.com/ - about an hour from my house.  They offer training in Combat Hapkido.  I would prefer a more traditional hapkido.

Allied TKD and Hapkido - this is close to my house, but it is also the place with the for rent signs in the windows.

www.judo-hapkido.com - this looks like the most promising, but it is also about an hour away and I would have to drive through the city during rush hour to get to class, so add another half hour.


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## TigerWoman (Nov 13, 2004)

I'm teaching white belts right now....first basic kicking, punching  techniques are learned, alot of strength, cardiovascular training, form, two self defense techniques.  Actually I did do sparring combinations with my class to get them started although white belts are not tested in sparring. Way too early... be patient, part of the process.  First learn techniques, get strong...TKD with Hapkido is a great combination. Hang in there... TW


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## glad2bhere (Nov 13, 2004)

Dear Tigerwoman: 

While there is a part of me that understands how you can make the sort of statement in your post that I read, please know that not All of we Hapkido practitioners view the marriage of TKD with a few HKD techniques as being anywhere near optimal. I have no fault with your practice of a martial sport and heartily encourage those who are interested in a fine activity with sound principle and challenging demands to avail themselves of your teaching. Beyond that I would take this opprtunity to advise you that for my part the Hapkido arts are a martial art and a martial tradition. To train in Hapkido arts is to demand of yourself the acceptance of significant performance and commitment. Whatever else you may think the Hapkido arts to be I can testify that to pursue these arts is to require of your students commitment and dilligence not asked in other Korean MA activities. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## TigerWoman (Nov 13, 2004)

I understand your position.  I would expect no less from a TKD practioner.
But we do elements of Hapkido to supplement as well as you, I notice, do elements of TKD high kicking.  I would throw myself into one art, until I could no longer grow (as in bad knees) than perhaps another art would complement it and I could continue to grow.  I am mixed as to one art being the end all, but I do respect you and Hapkido as an art that can take a lifetime to understand fully. TW


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## howard (Nov 14, 2004)

TigerWoman said:
			
		

> ...TKD with Hapkido is a great combination. Hang in there... TW


 hi tigerwoman,

 i pretty much agree with you... for people who are interested in the sporting / competition / sparring side of the arts, tkd is great.  and hapkido can compliment tkd nicely in the area of self defense, if you're interested in that aspect of the arts.


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## iron_ox (Nov 14, 2004)

Hello all,

As long as the student is clearly told, and understands that the Hapkido they may be taught in a TaeKwonDo class is just an add on, and not the whole art, that seems fine.  Where I object is the multitude of TaeKwonDo dojangs that teach a few Hapkido techniques and then advertise TaeKwonDo and Hapkido to their students.  I get lots of perspective students that say they have done Hapkido and TaeKwonDo together - which means they know 10 bad Hapkido techniques from a WTF Dojang.

As long as the two arts are described as "add-ons" when taught like this, I think for them it is fine.

For what it is worth, I think in 25 years I have rarely seen anyone kick in a Hapkido Dojang like the snappy, competition stlye kicks found in most TaeKwonDo Dojang.


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## glad2bhere (Nov 15, 2004)

Dear Kevin: 

Doesn't your thinking fly in the face of the "something-fer-nothing" approach that is so popular?  After all its not like people really WANT to learn two arts, or that they are, in fact, learning two arts. Rather what I think is being marketed here are the bragging rights to saying "I know two Korean martial arts" without having to account for just how deeply one knows those arts, yes? As always its the image that is being sold and not the opportunity to train hard. For myself I have had TKD students who have come to my classes and relate that they already know Hapkido and want to start above the basics. Without exception they have little or no falling skills, poor insight into how to execute a technique, and little in either depth or breadth of technique. Somehow I think that what is being discussed here is not really "learning" Hapkido but the "idea" that one is learning Hapkido.  FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## iron_ox (Nov 15, 2004)

Hello all,

Again the question returns to what do we consider Hapkido?  Is it TaeKwonDo with a wrist lock?  If anyone can use the name the generically call any throwing art Hapkido, then there is no art of Hapkido.


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## glad2bhere (Nov 15, 2004)

I don't agree. 

We still have Hapkido. We have different takes on it such as SIN MU Hapkido, and KUK SOOL Hapkido and HWA RANG Hapkido and a whole range of Hapkido kwans including Mu Sool, Yon Mu and Mu Ye. The Kidohae and the KHF both recognize a whole range of kwans for themselves. Its the same as karate with all kinds of types and Chuan Fa with all kinds of types etc etc etc. 

What we don't have so far is a minimal standard that we all hold in common and a uniform nomenclature for doing what we do. Until that happens the Hapkido arts are free-game for anyone with an imagination.  FWIW. 

I know one thing that needs to be settled is whether a person can adopt the title of Kwanjang or whether it must be bestowed. Nobody seems to want to come out of the closet on this one.  

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## iron_ox (Nov 15, 2004)

Hello Bruce,

I disagree here.  There is Hapkido, then there is all the other stuff, that is not Hapkido.  People making up crap rank and crap style that tack Hapkido on the end is not Hapkido.  If it is not from the Choi root, or at least the Ji root, it is not Hapkido.  There is no "interpretation" - just the original 3808 techniques Choi taught - if what someone calls "Hapkido" is not from that tree it ain't Hapkido.

Shotokan has some variance in how particular instructors teach, but the root techniques are the same - this is an art - the same applies for Hapkido - if someone wants to have a "new" or "different" philosophy, GREAT - but IT IS NOT HAPKIDO!

Thanks for the rant time...


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## glad2bhere (Nov 15, 2004)

Absolutely. There is no way that I can dispute that Choi must figure in there somewhere. Where we begin to disagree is when you step across the line and legitimize Ji. Once the worms are out of the can you aren't going to get them all back in. And you certainly are not going to get the Hapkido community to disavow Ji or Lee or Kimm or a host of other folks. What we CAN do is draw a line NOW and say "this far and no farther." Now folks like Pelligrini will scream that they should have the line drawn behind them rather than in front of them ---- inclusion rather than exclusion. As far as "I" am concerned Pelligrini and others lost this when he owned that he didn't teach "Hapkido" but still went ahead and used the label for its name recognition. Hes been fighting for legitimacy ever since. 

It would have been a help had Choi left a nice neat paper trail such as the scrolls we associate with various Japanese and Chinese arts. I have been making a case for the MYTBTJ to be accepted at least as some bonafide, but that my own personal Quest. In the meantime we have folks who have taken Chois' material and added and subtracted and now we have to deal with that. It would have been nice to have a curriculum neat and tidy but we don't and now we have to make do. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## howard (Nov 15, 2004)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> ...After all its not like people really WANT to learn two arts, or that they are, in fact, learning two arts. Rather what I think is being marketed here are the bragging rights to saying "I know two Korean martial arts" without having to account for just how deeply one knows those arts, yes? As always its the image that is being sold and not the opportunity to train hard...FWIW.


bruce, this is not universally true.  i think you're being unfair to at least some people, and i can use my own experience to demonstrate.

i trained in ji do kwan (the pre-tkd style that is still taught) for a few years before beginning to train in hapkido.  i attended two separate schools, one for each art.  we did absolutely nothing hapkido-like in ji do kwan, and we do absolutely nothing ji do kwan-like in jungki hapkido.  i was indeed learning two arts, until i abandoned ji do kwan to devote all of my training time to hapkido.

nobody sold me any images.  i sought out both schools on my own and joined them after evaluating them based on what i perceived to be their merits.

i'll grant that there are some tkd instructors who are guilty of the behavior you describe, but you seem to imply that everybody who says they train in tkd and hapkido is misrepresenting things.  i don't think you can prove that from the available evidence.


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## glad2bhere (Nov 15, 2004)

Sorry, Howard, but I think there is a matter of degree here that cannot be ignored. Lets take your case. 

Most certainly you trained in Ji Do Kwan and most certainly you trained in Hapkido at the Junk Ki Kwan. In my own case I have been with the Yon Mu Kwan since 1990, and trained separately in sword at a separate kwan. In this way we both know this can be done. The key is, how many people actually do this? Remember the old rule of thumb about how only one student in a hundred students makes it to a legit BB in a martial art? Well think of how many people represent themselves as teaching (not just training in) more than one MA. How many times have you stumbled across a website and the guy has more degrees than a thermometer. How many times have you passed a MA school and there are five to ten arts listed on the window? You don't really think that fella running that school actually trained in all of those arts to the point of true mastery, do you? I have standing in two arts and its everything I can do to keep up with those two--- and I won't even pretend to say I have "mastered" them. ( People who wonder why there should be manditory time in grade should try to legitimately maintain a competency in two or more skill-sets at the same time. Its an eye-opener!!). 

I'm sorry if what I said hit a little close to home and I am not casting aspirsions. But my experience has been that there are a whole lot more of "them" than "us". FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## howard (Nov 15, 2004)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> ...In this way we both know this can be done. The key is, how many people actually do this? Remember the old rule of thumb about how only one student in a hundred students makes it to a legit BB in a martial art? Well think of how many people represent themselves as teaching (not just training in) more than one MA. How many times have you stumbled across a website and the guy has more degrees than a thermometer. How many times have you passed a MA school and there are five to ten arts listed on the window? You don't really think that fella running that school actually trained in all of those arts to the point of true mastery, do you? I have standing in two arts and its everything I can do to keep up with those two--- and I won't even pretend to say I have "mastered" them. ( People who wonder why there should be manditory time in grade should try to legitimately maintain a competency in two or more skill-sets at the same time. Its an eye-opener!!).
> 
> I'm sorry if what I said hit a little close to home and I am not casting aspirsions. But my experience has been that there are a whole lot more of "them" than "us". FWIW.
> 
> ...


bruce, i agree with what you're saying, as a generalization i think people should be somewhat wary of tkd schools saying that they also offer hapkido, because of the tendency you cite.  guess i was just being a little cantankerous in pointing out that there are exceptions... not many, probably, but a few.

regards, howard


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## glad2bhere (Nov 15, 2004)

I know what you are saying, let me take this a step farther though. Lets put dual training to one side for just a moment and deal JUSt with Hapkido all by itself. 

I just got a copy of Turtle Press' latest catalog. Turned to pg 11 because I saw the heading "hapkido". There on the page are four DVD-s for sale courtesy of "Grandmaster Myung Yong Kim, founder of Hapkido Jin Jung Kwan and Grandmaster Chang Soo Lee, head of Hapkido Jin Jung Kwan" (sic). Now, what is a person to make of this. Well considering that the DVD-s include "some of their top instuctors" a person could be excused for reading fast and thinking that here are a couple of founding individuals of the art of Hapkido as opposed to just one more in a line of people who started their own kwan or "study group". It also doesn't help that the press goes on to say that you will be learning from " the headmaster, founder and demonstration team members of this dynamic Korean art." Once again, read fast and declinated according to the specifics, it could easily be interpreted in ones' mind that one will "learn from the head master of this Korean art, learn from the founder of this Korean art, and learn from the demostration team members of this Korean art", yes? Not only that but press goes on to intimate that if one were to purchase both vol 1&2 "....this series presents a complete self-defense series." (sic). Sure would have been nice if someone could have told me that my entire 20 Hapkido career could well have been encapsulated on two DVD-s in 75 techniques or less. 

Please know that none of this a commentary on your posts. I share this only because like anyone else I would like to see the integrity of the art I practice regarded, thats all. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## ajs1976 (Nov 15, 2004)

Is the discussion about:

1.  Someone studying art A at one school and art B at another

2.  Someone talking TKD that includes 'Hapkido' as part of the curriculum?  By 'Hapkido' I mean learns 6 techniques per kup, doesn't practice falling, and never talks about the water principle or circular motion, etc.


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## glad2bhere (Nov 15, 2004)

For me the discussion focuses on the blurring of lines. Life dictates that lines tend to blur with time. Do we accept this and sit by passively, do we pro-actively take advantage for our own personal gain, or do we work to maintain the integrity of the curriculum as it represents the supporting tenents as much as is given into our power to do? FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Kumbajah (Nov 15, 2004)

I have yet to see a kick or hand technique in TKD that I have not learned in Hapkido - can I claim I know TKD. It kind of irks me when people find out I practice hapkido and say "I took TKD and we learned hapkido - you know joint locks and stuff" 

I stopped by a studio in NYC that advertised TKD and Hapkido. I told the Master that I held rank in Hapkido (1st Dan at the Time) and could I stay and watch the class. "No - we only do Hapkido on Tuesday - you should go now." 

On the other hand we have a 2nd Dan TKD who is testing for 1st Dan soon. He started at white belt and went through the whole curriculum. That I can applaud and support. 

Brian


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## glad2bhere (Nov 16, 2004)

Dear Brian: 

Right on the money, and I will even go a step farther. When I talk about what I teach and practice I make a poiont of saying Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido. I don't pretend that ALL the Hapkido arts are the same. For instance, I know that I do not teach a KUK SOOL model despite my interest in Chinese traditions. I do not teach MU SOOL KWAN despite their connection with the WHF. I don't purport to teach MU YE KWAN despite Hal Whalens' past experience with GM Myung. These are all different approaches. And saying that I could teach these approaches simply because I can teach YMK Hapkido is an unfair representation.   FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## whalen (Nov 16, 2004)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> Dear Brian:
> Right on the money, and I will even go a step farther. When I talk about what I teach and practice I make a poiont of saying Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido. I don't pretend that ALL the Hapkido arts are the same. For instance, I know that I do not teach a KUK SOOL model despite my interest in Chinese traditions. I do not teach MU SOOL KWAN despite their connection with the WHF. I don't purport to teach MU YE KWAN despite Hal Whalens' past experience with GM Myung. These are all different approaches. And saying that I could teach these approaches simply because I can teach YMK Hapkido is an unfair representation.   FWIW.
> 
> Best Wishes,
> Bruce



Bruce,

Mu Ye Kwan was the name of our Dojang years ago, The kwan I have been  a member of since 1976 is Chun-do-kwan. Under Master Yu, Chun He .

Just wanted to clarify so there were NO misinterpretations

Hal Whalen


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