# MA frauds



## hoshin1600 (Sep 29, 2015)

so there seems to be a few threads going on right now about lineage.  i know this sight does not allow fraud busting so i am trying to be respectfull of that (and i hope everyone else does too), but my question is, out in the real world if you found out someone in your community was a complete MA fraud with no lineage other than reading books and watching youtube videos, what would you do about it if anything?


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## Gnarlie (Sep 29, 2015)

Train elsewhere, teach elsewhere, concentrate on getting my own house in order, be better.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## kuniggety (Sep 29, 2015)

I don't know really what you can do other than talk to them like a human being. The worst thing they can do is tell you to shove off. If they want to fight you, well, then there's the opportunity to show that they're a fake. Obviously don't provoke a fight but if they put their hands on you then it's fair game.

 Aside from a few instances, most fakers don't get that far with their dojo/school because eventually the students will get disillusioned with the system.


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## Buka (Sep 29, 2015)

Fraud? You mean Bogus? A heavilly striped misrepresentation of the Arts? A charlatan, a paper tiger, a strawman in a nice starched gi? Who ever heard of such a thing?

You know the sad part? It's not the guy who's purposely creating a con, it's the poor kid who was promoted way past his ability and thrust to the front of his organization's latest money making arm.


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## RTKDCMB (Sep 29, 2015)

I would not train or teach under him or allow him into any class I was teaching. Other than that, nothing, I am not the martial arts police.


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## swhitney222 (Sep 29, 2015)

I think it is hard to watch as a martial artist. Since everyone that starts there training knows nothing as a beginner, un-educated about what martial arts is and what to look for, you really have a hard time knowing until you gain experience and start research, you begin to see what works and what doesn't work. Hoshin1600 I guess you can offer to teach them. but all you can do is talk to them even though they bring down martial arts as a whole. I hope this is a hypothetical question and not one in the area, message me and let me know if it is .


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 29, 2015)

In general, nothing. You can't police the whole martial arts world. Also, people have different ideas about what counts as genuine qualifications and who counts as a fraud.

The exception is someone claiming BJJ rank, especially black belt status. The BJJ community polices that pretty vigilantly. An unqualified individual teaching with a phony BJJ black belt can expect to have his name and the details of his fraud broadcast worldwide as a warning for potential students. (In years past the consequences might be more ... physical, but we're mostly more civilized these days. )

This is only possible because the BJJ community is still relatively small and the existing lineages are known. Any legitimate BJJ black belt will have a provable lineage leading back to either the Gracie family or Oswaldo Fadda.


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## hoshin1600 (Sep 29, 2015)

if someone is a complete fraud as martial artists i feel we should never take the path of a physical solution just because that is what we train about.  so lets take that off the table.  if someone is teaching and claiming rank in something and its clear that he/ she is not authentic, as a community do we not have the responsibility to gaurd against this? in the Gracie example yes i am sure they would pursue this because it is the family name. but if it was just advertised as grappling and not mentioned their name ?  this problem has existed a long long time.  there was a point a few years ago that there was something brewing on the government level that they were going to set standards and begin to regulate martial arts ( all standards seemed to be tae kwon do based)  you would then need to be licensed by your state. not sure how all that would work.  but there should be some controls on this. i dont think it should be on the state or federal level but why within any governing body of a style does no one do anything?  i do know many years ago my aikido teacher Fumio toyoda would go to other schools that claimed to teach aikido and ask them for their certificate from hombu dojo and who back in Japan gave them authorization to teach. he would then give them a cease and desist letter.   this lead to many re-naming what they did aki- jiujitsu.   i know anyone can open their doors and teach but i feel authentic style organizations should do more to prevent the unsavory use of that style and system name. if organizations did a better job at controlling this then "buyer beware" the consumer would be able to make better choices based on the well known system and style. if consumers were buying a car they would by a chevy, ford or toyota.  not many would buy the Hoshin, whatchamacallit.  (its not that reliable and it dont look pretty but it will cost you 10k)  it should be the same with martial arts.  am i being to idealistic?


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## Hanzou (Sep 29, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> In general, nothing. You can't police the whole martial arts world. Also, people have different ideas about what counts as genuine qualifications and who counts as a fraud.
> 
> The exception is someone claiming BJJ rank, especially black belt status. The BJJ community polices that pretty vigilantly. An unqualified individual teaching with a phony BJJ black belt can expect to have his name and the details of his fraud broadcast worldwide as a warning for potential students. (In years past the consequences might be more ... physical, but we're mostly more civilized these days. )
> 
> This is only possible because the BJJ community is still relatively small and the existing lineages are known. Any legitimate BJJ black belt will have a provable lineage leading back to either the Gracie family or Oswaldo Fadda.



Even beyond that though, I think Bjj is able to police itself because it has a tradition of fighting. If you're a fraud, the last thing you want to fake is being a Bjj black belt, because people (typically high ranked Bjj practitioners) will pop up to roll with you constantly.

If you get rolled by the local backyard wrestler, you can kiss your phony Bjj school good bye.


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 29, 2015)

hoshin1600 said:


> if someone is a complete fraud as martial artists i feel we should never take the path of a physical solution just because that is what we train about. so lets take that off the table.



Agreed. Certain Brazilians of a previous generation had a different perspective, but those individuals did a lot of thing that I don't think should be emulated.



hoshin1600 said:


> i dont think it should be on the state or federal level but why within any governing body of a style does no one do anything? i do know many years ago my aikido teacher Fumio toyoda would go to other schools that claimed to teach aikido and ask them for their certificate from hombu dojo and who back in Japan gave them authorization to teach. he would then give them a cease and desist letter.



The problem is that (in most countries at least), no one has a trademark on the name of most martial arts. Even if they did, you can always alter the name enough to come up with your own variation. If I were to start telling people that I am the 39th generation grandmaster of White Dragon Kung Pow Jutsu, the best response from others would be just to point out that there is no such thing and that I'm being a very silly person.



hoshin1600 said:


> i know anyone can open their doors and teach but i feel authentic style organizations should do more to prevent the unsavory use of that style and system name. if organizations did a better job at controlling this then "buyer beware" the consumer would be able to make better choices based on the well known system and style



This does happen to a greater or lesser extent in different arts. One major problem is that the whole thing gets caught up in politics. Someone studies for 15 years in organization A, then has a falling out with their instructor and forms organization B. The original instructor immediately announces that the practitioner in question never learned the full art and is unqualified to teach it. Now repeat a few hundred times. In short order, you have a host of different schools and organizations with different standards who don't recognize the qualifications of practitioners from the competing organizations.

As nasty as political feuds in BJJ can get, at least BJJ practitioners mostly recognize each others awarded ranks as legitimate , even if it comes from a rival instructor. (This might not have been the case if Helio had succeeded in his early attempts to control the entire art, but the Gracie family was too large and fractious to allow him to get away with that.)


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## drop bear (Sep 29, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> In general, nothing. You can't police the whole martial arts world. Also, people have different ideas about what counts as genuine qualifications and who counts as a fraud.
> 
> The exception is someone claiming BJJ rank, especially black belt status. The BJJ community polices that pretty vigilantly. An unqualified individual teaching with a phony BJJ black belt can expect to have his name and the details of his fraud broadcast worldwide as a warning for potential students. (In years past the consequences might be more ... physical, but we're mostly more civilized these days. )
> 
> This is only possible because the BJJ community is still relatively small and the existing lineages are known. Any legitimate BJJ black belt will have a provable lineage leading back to either the Gracie family or Oswaldo Fadda.



Except now we have on line and free flow? Belts.


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 29, 2015)

I'm not sure what you mean by free-flow belts?

The Gracie University online belt system is controversial, but a few things should be noted:

1) GU students cannot be ranked past blue belt without in-person evaluation. Certainly no one will be getting a legit BJJ black belt online.
2) GU students who have been awarded rank through that system are listed online, so if someone was (for some reason) faking being a GU blue belt they would be easy to expose.
3) The standards for GU rank are publicly available. You might or might not agree with them, but there's no fraud involved. If someone has a GU blue belt you can say exactly what that means.


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## Chris Parker (Oct 3, 2015)

hoshin1600 said:


> so there seems to be a few threads going on right now about lineage.  i know this sight does not allow fraud busting so i am trying to be respectfull of that (and i hope everyone else does too), but my question is, out in the real world if you found out someone in your community was a complete MA fraud with no lineage other than reading books and watching youtube videos, what would you do about it if anything?



It's not anywhere near as clear cut as that, though… for example "fraud" and "unskilled" don't mean the same thing… 



kuniggety said:


> I don't know really what you can do other than talk to them like a human being. The worst thing they can do is tell you to shove off. If they want to fight you, well, then there's the opportunity to show that they're a fake. Obviously don't provoke a fight but if they put their hands on you then it's fair game.



Okay, then, say they do fight you… and they beat you… badly. Are they now no longer a fraud? Is there claim (lineage) now legit and genuine? And what happens if someone with a legitimate lineage fights and loses? Is their lineage now fake? Are they now a fraud?



kuniggety said:


> Aside from a few instances, most fakers don't get that far with their dojo/school because eventually the students will get disillusioned with the system.



Actually, some of the biggest schools around are the fake ones… mainly as they more closely match what people expect to see… I'll give an example or two later in this post.



Buka said:


> Fraud? You mean Bogus? A heavilly striped misrepresentation of the Arts? A charlatan, a paper tiger, a strawman in a nice starched gi? Who ever heard of such a thing?



Again, that's not the same thing… 



Buka said:


> You know the sad part? It's not the guy who's purposely creating a con, it's the poor kid who was promoted way past his ability and thrust to the front of his organization's latest money making arm.



Okay, how about an art with an invented history, but some serious training is given, skill is as earned as in a "genuine" school, the "poor kid" is skilled and solid, and earned his grade the same way you would in a BJJ class (for example)… but the art is still "fraudulent" when taken as a literal term? What if there is no "money making arm", just someone trying to impart the best skills he can in the best way he knows how, regardless of how authentic the history is?



RTKDCMB said:


> I would not train or teach under him or allow him into any class I was teaching. Other than that, nothing, I am not the martial arts police.



Okay… how would you know if they were fraudulent? Say they claimed to be a traditional Japanese Jujutsu system… what they did certainly looked a lot like it… very similar throws, some very Japanese weapons… but what they did was based in a false history? How about if, even with the false history, their techniques (say, the throws) were solid, and the guy did them well? Does that change anything?



swhitney222 said:


> I think it is hard to watch as a martial artist. Since everyone that starts there training knows nothing as a beginner, un-educated about what martial arts is and what to look for, you really have a hard time knowing until you gain experience and start research, you begin to see what works and what doesn't work. Hoshin1600 I guess you can offer to teach them. but all you can do is talk to them even though they bring down martial arts as a whole. I hope this is a hypothetical question and not one in the area, message me and let me know if it is .



Do they really "bring martial arts down", though? And what separates them from you, to the point that you classify yourself as a martial artist, but (by implication) not them?



Tony Dismukes said:


> In general, nothing. You can't police the whole martial arts world. Also, people have different ideas about what counts as genuine qualifications and who counts as a fraud.



Yep. Although when we're talking lineage (historically verifiable claims), it can be a bit more cut and dried as to what is genuine and what isn't… although not always.



Tony Dismukes said:


> The exception is someone claiming BJJ rank, especially black belt status. The BJJ community polices that pretty vigilantly. An unqualified individual teaching with a phony BJJ black belt can expect to have his name and the details of his fraud broadcast worldwide as a warning for potential students. (In years past the consequences might be more ... physical, but we're mostly more civilized these days. )
> 
> This is only possible because the BJJ community is still relatively small and the existing lineages are known. Any legitimate BJJ black belt will have a provable lineage leading back to either the Gracie family or Oswaldo Fadda.



Koryu are also something that are rather difficult to fake… but the problem with both the Koryu and BJJ "self policing" is that that is done within the community itself… I wouldn't trust a BJJ guy to have a clue about what makes for legit Koryu, and vice versa. And an outsider to either/both would have even less clue. I mean… I've done some time with BJJ… I'm probably one of the better educated in this area (legitimacy and historical claims) here… and I'd suggest it's still possible for someone to "fake" a BJJ lineage with me. Of course, they might simply make up (or claim an alternate lineage) where their line comes from… but could still have legit skills… which makes it even harder to figure out. If they are claiming to teach "the real, original BJJ, with all the tornado kicks and three sectional staff still in it"… that's a different story… 



hoshin1600 said:


> if someone is a complete fraud as martial artists i feel we should never take the path of a physical solution just because that is what we train about.  so lets take that off the table.



Sorry, just to clarify here… are you saying that we train not to physically engage? Cause… that's kinda the opposite of how I'd describe martial arts… they're all about the physical engagement. As far as not looking to engage (aggressively), well, that's going to come down to the art and the person with regards to whether it's part of "what we train"… but I'll just throw this term out there: dojo yaburi (道場破り)...



hoshin1600 said:


> if someone is teaching and claiming rank in something and its clear that he/ she is not authentic, as a community do we not have the responsibility to gaurd against this?



That will depend on your relationship to what they're claiming to teach. As in the Koryu/BJJ examples given, such things are typically policed by the group affected.

Out of interest… how would you tell that they aren't "authentic"? For example, pick an art you might not know much about… say… capoeira… or pekiti silat. Without knowing what the ranking is, how it's attained, or how the art is structured/works, how do you determine what is or is not "authentic"?



hoshin1600 said:


> in the Gracie example yes i am sure they would pursue this because it is the family name. but if it was just advertised as grappling and not mentioned their name ?



Why would the advertising as "grappling" be fraudulent, if they're teaching grappling (from whatever source)?



hoshin1600 said:


> this problem has existed a long long time.  there was a point a few years ago that there was something brewing on the government level that they were going to set standards and begin to regulate martial arts ( all standards seemed to be tae kwon do based)  you would then need to be licensed by your state. not sure how all that would work.



Yeah… I've seen a number of attempts. Honestly, it simply can't work on a practical level at all. After all… based on the standards of TKD, how do you rate and credential my Iai training? You'd need expert input from, basically, all the different systems, methodologies, and approaches out there… which will, by necessity, include these "fake" schools… which defeats the purpose of using it to keep out the fakes in the first place.



hoshin1600 said:


> but there should be some controls on this. i dont think it should be on the state or federal level but why within any governing body of a style does no one do anything?



Many do. They just don't do a big song and dance about it. And it can't be an outside source that does it (such as a government, or even a specialist government agency). The practical knowledge simply can't be there.



hoshin1600 said:


> i do know many years ago my aikido teacher Fumio toyoda would go to other schools that claimed to teach aikido and ask them for their certificate from hombu dojo and who back in Japan gave them authorization to teach. he would then give them a cease and desist letter.   this lead to many re-naming what they did aki- jiujitsu.



Yep.



hoshin1600 said:


> i know anyone can open their doors and teach but i feel authentic style organizations should do more to prevent the unsavory use of that style and system name.



And, again, they do. I know of legal cases and claims being brought against people using titles and system names that they have no legal right to.



hoshin1600 said:


> if organizations did a better job at controlling this then "buyer beware" the consumer would be able to make better choices based on the well known system and style.



I like your ideal, but no, they wouldn't.



hoshin1600 said:


> if consumers were buying a car they would by a chevy, ford or toyota.  not many would buy the Hoshin, whatchamacallit.  (its not that reliable and it dont look pretty but it will cost you 10k)  it should be the same with martial arts.  am i being to idealistic?



If they wanted to be safe, maybe… but even then, there's no guarantee. And there are a large number of makes of car that are not in the mass-populace's awareness… but are awesome machines. Not knowing a "brand name" isn't always an indication that it's a poorer choice… 



Tony Dismukes said:


> Agreed. Certain Brazilians of a previous generation had a different perspective, but those individuals did a lot of thing that I don't think should be emulated.



Ha, should go through some of the old Japanese stories… tsujikiri, for example… 



Tony Dismukes said:


> The problem is that (in most countries at least), no one has a trademark on the name of most martial arts. Even if they did, you can always alter the name enough to come up with your own variation. If I were to start telling people that I am the 39th generation grandmaster of White Dragon Kung Pow Jutsu, the best response from others would be just to point out that there is no such thing and that I'm being a very silly person.



Well, yes, you would be a very silly, silly Tony… ha!

Of course, your big exception will be Japan and Koryu… there, the arts are very much legal trademark/copyright situations. If someone was to open a school teaching "Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu" with no association (or accreditation) with the Ryu itself… well… that's a legal issue… and is treated as such quite seriously.



Tony Dismukes said:


> This does happen to a greater or lesser extent in different arts. One major problem is that the whole thing gets caught up in politics. Someone studies for 15 years in organization A, then has a falling out with their instructor and forms organization B. The original instructor immediately announces that the practitioner in question never learned the full art and is unqualified to teach it. Now repeat a few hundred times. In short order, you have a host of different schools and organizations with different standards who don't recognize the qualifications of practitioners from the competing organisations.



This gets kinda dicey, as if it's a new association but the same art, it will come down to the individual approaches of each… and students will need to make up their own minds. If person B creates their own new system within their new organisation, then it's really no matter, and just mud slinging… but all of this is actually quite removed from the idea of fraudulent behaviour and fake systems… none of this is meeting the criteria for that… simply political splits within a lineage.



Tony Dismukes said:


> As nasty as political feuds in BJJ can get, at least BJJ practitioners mostly recognize each others awarded ranks as legitimate , even if it comes from a rival instructor. (This might not have been the case if Helio had succeeded in his early attempts to control the entire art, but the Gracie family was too large and fractious to allow him to get away with that.)



There are other reasons for that, as opposed to the way other arts don't as easily recognise rank from other systems/organisations/instructors. For example, I have a Bujinkan dan grade practitioner looking to start with me soon… and, despite our historical link, in a very real way, his black belt means absolutely nothing in our organisation. From a practical standpoint, he holds no rank at all. He might have a lot of skill… and a lot of knowledge… but that's not the same thing at all.

So let's look at some examples of "fake" arts… we'll start with some that I have personal experience with.

A friend of mine teaches a particular system that he learnt from his father and godfather. His godfather is the founder of the system itself (in the UK in the 50's), and his father is the second head of the art. In simple terms, the art is a combination of basic judo nage-waza and katame waza, karate daken methods, some aikido kansetsu waza (none of these in a "complete" form) combined with weaponry systems that are, honestly, largely made up (with a visual basis in both Japanese and Ryukyu methodology)… but betraying a number of traits that show that they're not authentic in their origin. My friend believes (as he's been taught) that his godfather learnt a number of classical Japanese systems while briefly stationed there in the 40's and 50's… some of which he's named to me (and none of which have any evidence of any place in the methodology of his art at all)… and describes it as "classical Japanese martial arts… the art of the samurai… koden bujutsu (old transmission martial arts)". Sad to say, it's none of these things at all.

So… that's a fraudulent system. But does it mean that the practitioners don't have skills? Nope, not at all. They train diligently, and the school is very big and successful. The issue is the claims made… it's not traditional, it's not classical, it's not even Japanese (although it takes a lot from Japanese arts). My friend even goes to Japan each year to try to research the origins of his art, based on the stories he's been given… but always comes back with nothing but tenuous possibilities. He takes the opportunity while in Japan to train in authentic arts… but doesn't (or won't) make the connection to the lack of authenticity of his own art.

With regards to RTKDCMB's comment about not training with (frauds)… I have trained under my friend at a seminar once. He was teaching his arts sword approach (which I wanted to attend to confirm what I saw) as part of a three-instructor day. The seminar was organised by a Hapkido instructor whose school my friend teaches sword at once a month… and the Hapkido instructor made a number of references to him being "a samurai"… and teaching "genuine samurai sword"… neither of which are correct either. At the same seminar was an instructor of a modern Western "Jujitsu" system… which was really bastardised form of karate combined with low-level Judo throws. Again, the instructor claimed that it was "traditional jujitsu"… based on the idea that "it works"… and that he was taught by a "former police officer"… although he couldn't identify any actual history for the art. The point is that, as far as the Hapkido instructor knew, both the other guys were teaching legitimate traditional Japanese martial arts… but, by that criteria, both were "frauds".

Just to highlight this, I'm going to link a few videos… some of these systems are legit… some aren't. I'm wondering who can tell which is which…


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## hoshin1600 (Oct 3, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> Just to highlight this, I'm going to link a few videos… some of these systems are legit… some aren't. I'm wondering who can tell which is which…


that was easy...video number 2 is clearly the real deal.    but your right the Jigen Ryu video looks like something that is fake but i think i have seen the style before so i am guessing its real but i am not a Koryu expert.  the last video has me guessing as well.  i see some Japanese art in it as well as some Chinese Chin-na but i dont see some tell tale signs of it being Chin-na, it just stands out to me as legit technique but as a "put together" system.  thats my guess for what its worth ( not much).



Chris Parker said:


> Sorry, just to clarify here… are you saying that we train not to physically engage? Cause… that's kinda the opposite of how I'd describe martial arts… they're all about the physical engagement. As far as not looking to engage (aggressively), well, that's going to come down to the art and the person with regards to whether it's part of "what we train"… but I'll just throw this term out there: dojo yaburi (道場破り)...


what i was making an attempt to do was to be polite and not have the thread go down the path where people make posts about busting down the doors and making challenges.


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## Buka (Oct 3, 2015)

hoshin1600 said:


> so there seems to be a few threads going on right now about lineage.  i know this sight does not allow fraud busting so i am trying to be respectfull of that (and i hope everyone else does too), but my question is, out in the real world if you found out someone in your community was a complete MA fraud with no lineage other than reading books and watching youtube videos, what would you do about it if anything?



I wouldn't do anything at all. Other than give my opinion if asked. Been a few of those places not far from where I sit right now. Gone now, don't know if there's new ones around. I don't care much anymore, other than feeling badly for the folks that get sucked in.



Chris Parker said:


> Okay, how about an art with an invented history, but some serious training is given, skill is as earned as in a "genuine" school, the "poor kid" is skilled and solid, and earned his grade the same way you would in a BJJ class (for example)… but the art is still "fraudulent" when taken as a literal term? What if there is no "money making arm", just someone trying to impart the best skills he can in the best way he knows how, regardless of how authentic the history is?



I have no problem with anyone getting good training. I'm not sure why anyone would make up a history, though.

As for fraudulent, by some definitions in this thread I teach and train in a fraudulent art. American Karate. It's all made up. Keeps changing, too. I'm just fine with that.


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## Buka (Oct 3, 2015)

I've been pondering this for a bit. What I consider fraudulent is probably different from what others might think. Or different levels of fraud, at the least.

I can only speak from what I've seen first hand, here in Massachusetts. One guy made second degree black belt from, what I consider, a very experienced and well known Martial Artist. The guy then left, promoted himself to tenth degree and opened a chain of schools across the country. It was weak Martial Arts and played to the making of really big dollars. I know it was weak Martial Arts because they had tournaments within their organization and a lot of his students came to me to learn how to fight in a tournament. They had to do it on the sly and I never charged them, my guys felt bad for them and they all helped out in the training. This would be after classes behind locked doors. They were so poorly trained, it was sad.

Then there was another kind of fraud altogether. They were well versed in cherry picking students who had large egos and even larger wallets. They would run background checks on their students, get full family histories. Then they'd start playing to the right egos. They'd film them and then "send the tape to the exalted, high Master" in the old country. Then they'd tell them the Master sees something in them that he rarely sees anymore. He wants them to enroll in an advanced instructors course. Seventy thousand dollars later (in less than eighteen months) he would be filmed again, tape sent to the Master, and be encouraged to enroll in the Grand Poobah Master's Program. 

I know what you're thinking, "Nobody would fall for that!"  Unfortunately, they would and did. I worked with the FBI to get some of these Mother F'rs shut down and convicted. They, too, were a national chain.

So, to me, there's different levels of fraud.


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## hoshin1600 (Oct 3, 2015)

Buka said:


> As for fraudulent, by some definitions in this thread I teach and train in a fraudulent art. American Karate. It's all made up. Keeps changing, too. I'm just fine with that.


i have no problems with that either.  as long as you except it for what it is , then its not fraud in my opinion.  fraud to me comes on when you start making false claims.  like a made up lineage or a fighting record that doesnt exist.  fraud is when someone claims to have studied under someone well known when in fact the closest the person got to them was a book. fraud is when entire organizations claim to be the successor and results from an individual who is supposed to be the 21st great grand master of the style. when this is an outright lie used as an attempt to create ligitimacy.


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## hoshin1600 (Oct 3, 2015)

i really see nothing wrong with trying to create a new system and found a new lineage. but if i claim that the system i teach is Tachikawa ryu and was created by the Shingon priest Nikan in the year 1113 in Japan and i studied under the 43  great grand master and that its a really good system for women to learn, i usually only teach it to women in private lessons because of its effectiveness. (maybe only Chris Parker will get the referance here)  i would be lying and a fraud and up to no good.


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## Hanzou (Oct 3, 2015)

> Koryu are also something that are rather difficult to fake…



Actually it's the exact opposite, since Koryu have the double whammy of having old origins, and not being expected to have a strong sparring base. So you can you have frauds concocting phony lineages, and teaching their students BS while never having a mechanism in place to actually prove that they're legit.


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## hoshin1600 (Oct 3, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Actually it's the exact opposite, since Koryu have the double whammy of having old origins, and not being expected to have a strong sparring base. So you can you have frauds concocting phony lineages, and teaching their students BS while never having a mechanism in place to actually prove that they're legit.


i wish i had an emoji of me slaping my forehead and shaking my head.
in the words of Dr, Evil....."you just dont get it ..do you scott (Hanzou)"     the world dosent revolve around MMA and competition. your view of the world seems very skewed.


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## tshadowchaser (Oct 3, 2015)

Having seen a complete fraud in my area promote his 14 years old son to fifth degree from first and on the same day see him promote two other to 3rd degree I have to say there is not really much can do about it except bite your lip and hope those promoted learn soon how they are lacking in martial knowledge and ability.   When this instructor left town his two 3rd degree students tried to join a few other schools in the area and where told they could  test for a mid level under black belt and if they passed they could wear that belt but there 3rd degree belt was a farce.
another fake instructor was in the area for a time and when he left his students also found out his history was false and  most of what he taught them was from books and YouTube .
There is not much one can do except give your thoughts to those that ask.  Going to the better business bureau is of no help because they are not in the business of fraud busting. Unless someone is seriously hurt in that school the police and district attorney will not look at the credentials or teaching going on. 
The old days of closing down such schools by physical confrontation is long gone I'm afraid.


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## Hanzou (Oct 4, 2015)

hoshin1600 said:


> i wish i had an emoji of me slaping my forehead and shaking my head.
> in the words of Dr, Evil....."you just dont get it ..do you scott (Hanzou)"     the world dosent revolve around MMA and competition. your view of the world seems very skewed.



Where did I say that? I simply said that an art with a heavy focus on competition and sparring makes a system less susceptible to being utilized by frauds.


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## drop bear (Oct 4, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by free-flow belts?
> 
> The Gracie University online belt system is controversial, but a few things should be noted:
> 
> ...



Bjj Eastern Europe   – Guy Never Sparred & Receives Gracie University Blue Belt in Mail

Rigan Machado Designs Jiu-Jitsu System without Sparring for Celebrities - Sherdog Mixed Martial Arts Forums


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## Chris Parker (Oct 4, 2015)

hoshin1600 said:


> that was easy...video number 2 is clearly the real deal.    but your right the Jigen Ryu video looks like something that is fake but i think i have seen the style before so i am guessing its real but i am not a Koryu expert.  the last video has me guessing as well.  i see some Japanese art in it as well as some Chinese Chin-na but i dont see some tell tale signs of it being Chin-na, it just stands out to me as legit technique but as a "put together" system.  thats my guess for what its worth ( not much).



And… did you want to have another go?

Video's 1, 2, and 5 were all legitimate. Videos 3 and 4 were not.

Video one is of Jigen Ryu, a system of swordsmanship from Satsuma famous for having little finesse, but producing incredibly fierce warriors. In that school, it is taught that there is no second strike, as your first one has already killed the other guy. They spend a lot of time working on striking drills, and develop power to the degree that enemy warriors on the battlefield would be found with the backs of their own swords driven back into their skulls from an attempt to block the incoming strikes.

Video two is of Yagyu Shingan Ryu, a very powerful system that includes many areas, including truly battlefield armour-based combat. The video in question is a specialised conditioning exercise known as mifuri (spinning the body), utilising basic movements of the art in rapid succession to develop strength, endurance, spirit, and to work on breathing and cardio conditioning.

Video five is Hideo Iwaki demonstrating the basic forms of Asayama Ichiden Ryu Taijutsu. In this system, there is a big distinction made between kihon form and application (oyo) form.

As to the other two, the third video is of "Junsei Ryu"… which is a system developed in the UK in the 90's in order to "preserve the traditional martial arts of Japan"… unfortunately, no-one involved in the creation actually had any experience in the traditional martial arts of Japan, or recognised the simple fact that they do still exist, and in order to preserve them, you train in them, not make up some imitation claiming to be the same thing. The particular form there (for naginata) is unlike anything seen in actual naginata systems… in simple terms, it's a low-grade imitation of Ryukyu (Okinawan) bojutsu kihon, applied with a naginata… and not well.

The fourth is an interesting case study… the Ogawa Ryu (alternatively identified as "Kaze no Ryu Ogawa-ha") was created in Brazil in the late 80's/early 90's… they've since also gotten a decent following in Europe, mostly in Spain. They basically copied (with slight alterations) a number of koryu videos and techniques, combining from rather disparate sources, and making up a number of other aspects to fill in the gaps. They came to notice in the 90's/early 2000's with the advent of the internet, however initially they weren't recognised as being fake… really, they're quite a good counterfeit. There were always questions, certain things didn't quite add up, but relatively unknown ryu-ha do turn up every now and then (Unkou Ryu being a relatively recent one… it's basically just a father and son these days)… and it wasn't until they started to show their version of the Tea Ceremony (Cha no Yu), with a claim about it's heritage that they were found out (largely due to a Koryu practitioner who is also a tea practitioner). Too many details were wrong for it to be legit… and everything unraveled at that point.

Even with this known, they still fool a large number of people, and I see videos of theirs put up in otherwise knowledgable groups asking for information on them (such as a Kyudo group recently where someone put it up as an example of kyujutsu [old, combative archery]). In the same way, people training in Junsei Ryu, or in my friends system, honestly believe they are training in authentic Japanese martial arts. They're not, of course… but it matches what they expect… leading to people not knowing which is real or not when videos are put up.



hoshin1600 said:


> what i was making an attempt to do was to be polite and not have the thread go down the path where people make posts about busting down the doors and making challenges.



Yeah, sorry, I was asking in particular about the phrasing you used there… I wasn't sure if you were suggesting we don't take a physical course of action because (as martial artists) we train not to engage physically, or that we shouldn't engage despite the fact that we train to.



Buka said:


> I have no problem with anyone getting good training. I'm not sure why anyone would make up a history, though.



There are a number of reasons… marketing… delusion… desire to be something "more" than they are… 



Buka said:


> As for fraudulent, by some definitions in this thread I teach and train in a fraudulent art. American Karate. It's all made up. Keeps changing, too. I'm just fine with that.



Eh, if it's American Karate, developed in America, then that's what it is. If it's American Karate, developed in America, but claiming to be purely Japanese, that's a case of fraud.



Hanzou said:


> Actually it's the exact opposite, since Koryu have the double whammy of having old origins, and not being expected to have a strong sparring base. So you can you have frauds concocting phony lineages, and teaching their students BS while never having a mechanism in place to actually prove that they're legit.



Yeah… you really missed the point (and don't understand what "fraud" actually is, it seems). It's quite difficult to come up with a historical lineage that passes scrutiny… which makes it exceedingly difficult to "fake". Sparring, even performance, have absolutely nothing to do with that. It's precisely that old origins that makes it hard to fake… and "legit" doesn't mean what you think it does.

In other words, it's exactly the opposite of what you think it is. And I'd be careful about assuming you know what koryu actually are like… or what they contain and do. You might be surprised by some systems… 



tshadowchaser said:


> Having seen a complete fraud in my area promote his 14 years old son to fifth degree from first and on the same day see him promote two other to 3rd degree I have to say there is not really much can do about it except bite your lip and hope those promoted learn soon how they are lacking in martial knowledge and ability.   When this instructor left town his two 3rd degree students tried to join a few other schools in the area and where told they could  test for a mid level under black belt and if they passed they could wear that belt but there 3rd degree belt was a farce.



What makes you say that the instructor was a "complete fraud"? Nothing in your story suggests that… poor quality, sure. Lax standards, no issue. Nepotism, no question. But nothing suggests "fraud"… and that's the issue. "Fraud" is to do with credibility and honesty in regards to claims… not quality or living up to the desired standards of outsiders.

Now, I'm not saying he wasn't a fraud… I'm saying that having a poor quality school is not by any stretch evidence or proof positive of fraudulent action.



tshadowchaser said:


> another fake instructor was in the area for a time and when he left his students also found out his history was false and  most of what he taught them was from books and YouTube .



See, that's more like it.



tshadowchaser said:


> There is not much one can do except give your thoughts to those that ask.  Going to the better business bureau is of no help because they are not in the business of fraud busting. Unless someone is seriously hurt in that school the police and district attorney will not look at the credentials or teaching going on.
> The old days of closing down such schools by physical confrontation is long gone I'm afraid.



Yep.

Realistically, the only thing we can do is to better educate ourselves, and any who come with questions. But those that don't ask, won't find out. And such schools will continue to thrive.



Hanzou said:


> Where did I say that? I simply said that an art with a heavy focus on competition and sparring makes a system less susceptible to being utilized by frauds.



Which is precisely where you're on the wrong track. I mean… the system my friend teaches has a fair bit of sparring, and engages in competition fairly frequently. Still fake. In fact, it's precisely those elements that would have people think it's genuinely legitimate, whereas that's far from the case.


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## hoshin1600 (Oct 4, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> The fourth is an interesting case study… the Ogawa Ryu (alternatively identified as "Kaze no Ryu Ogawa-ha") was created in Brazil in the late 80's/early 90's… they've since also gotten a decent following in Europe, mostly in Spain. They basically copied (with slight alterations) a number of koryu videos and techniques, combining from rather disparate sources, and making up a number of other aspects to fill in the gaps. They came to notice in the 90's/early 2000's with the advent of the internet, however initially they weren't recognised as being fake… really, they're quite a good counterfeit. There were always questions, certain things didn't quite add up,


so one thing i noticed in the Ogawa ryu clip that bothered me was the way the guy in the white hakama had it tied. so i am asking the experts does that look right, is that exceptable?  i was taught different. ours had a nice bow in the front. it was very clean and neat. i know there are different ways, kyudo keeps the knots out of the way as example. the japanese tend to have a formal way to tie and fold everything the knots on this guys hakama just looked wrong to me.


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 4, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> A friend of mine teaches a particular system that he learnt from his father and godfather. His godfather is the founder of the system itself (in the UK in the 50's), and his father is the second head of the art. In simple terms, the art is a combination of basic judo nage-waza and katame waza, karate daken methods, some aikido kansetsu waza (none of these in a "complete" form) combined with weaponry systems that are, honestly, largely made up (with a visual basis in both Japanese and Ryukyu methodology)… but betraying a number of traits that show that they're not authentic in their origin. My friend believes (as he's been taught) that his godfather learnt a number of classical Japanese systems while briefly stationed there in the 40's and 50's… some of which he's named to me (and none of which have any evidence of any place in the methodology of his art at all)… and describes it as "classical Japanese martial arts… the art of the samurai… koden bujutsu (old transmission martial arts)". Sad to say, it's none of these things at all.
> 
> So… that's a fraudulent system. But does it mean that the practitioners don't have skills? Nope, not at all. They train diligently, and the school is very big and successful. The issue is the claims made… it's not traditional, it's not classical, it's not even Japanese (although it takes a lot from Japanese arts). My friend even goes to Japan each year to try to research the origins of his art, based on the stories he's been given… but always comes back with nothing but tenuous possibilities. He takes the opportunity while in Japan to train in authentic arts… but doesn't (or won't) make the connection to the lack of authenticity of his own art.


Here we start to get into the difference between a fraudulent _individual_ (one who claims experience or credentials he doesn't have) and a fraudulent _system_.(one where the actual history is not what it is claimed to be). Your friend is not a fraud, but by your standards his system is fraudulent.

The thing is, I'm not sure that "fraudulent" is the best term for describing a system where the claimed history is inaccurate. Martial artists are not historians. Most martial artists (if they particular care about their art's history) generally accept whatever mish-mash of myths, half-truths, and bits of genuine history that get passed down from their teacher, their teacher's teacher, and so on. Whatever bits you consider the greatest sins against historical veracity may have originated as lies, legitimate misunderstandings, or advertising spin in the current generation, the previous generation, or a hundred years ago or longer.

Examples ...

When I was in college, I talked to an acquaintance who was a 3rd dan in TKD and who believed the myth about TKD being an ancient Korean art. (He told me that Karate was "bastardized Americanized Tae Kwon Do." ) He wasn't a liar, he just believed what his teacher had told him. Is Tae Kwon Do a fraudulent martial art because a false history was being spread that many practitioners believed?

When I was in the Bujinkan, I was taught that Togakure Ryu is an 800-year old art and that Hatusmi was the historically documented 34th generation grandmaster. In fact, only 3 of the 9 disciplines taught in the Bujinkan can be verified as existing before Takamatsu and Togakure Ryu isn't one of them. However far back Togakure Ryu does go, it almost certainly isn't 800 years old. Are the Takamatsuden arts fraudulent?

In the early decades of BJJ, Helio Gracie claimed that his Jiu-Jitsu was the true art of the samurai and that Judo was just a watered down version of the art that the Japanese had created to fool westerners. Later on (after his brothers had passed away) he changed his tune and claimed that he had single-handedly created BJJ by watching the rudimentary Judo that Carlos had learned from Maeda and improving it so that a smaller individual like himself could defeat large opponents. Many schools still teach this second version of BJJ history, which isn't much more accurate than the first. Is BJJ a fraudulent art?

The commonly taught legend of Wing Chun's origin from Ng Mui and Yim Wing-Chun is probably not true. Does that mean Wing Chun is a fraudulent art?

Those of us who are not Shintoist are unlikely to believe the claim that the secrets of Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu were originally given to Choi-sai by Futsunushi no kami. Is Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu a fraudulent martial art?

I think it's sufficient to note the places where the claimed history of an art diverge from what is known or what is likely and reserve "fraud" for the individuals who are knowingly attempting to deceive.


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## Sapphire (Oct 5, 2015)

Beat up his students of course.  Either that or send him flowers.


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## Chris Parker (Oct 5, 2015)

hoshin1600 said:


> so one thing i noticed in the Ogawa ryu clip that bothered me was the way the guy in the white hakama had it tied. so i am asking the experts does that look right, is that exceptable?  i was taught different. ours had a nice bow in the front. it was very clean and neat. i know there are different ways, kyudo keeps the knots out of the way as example. the japanese tend to have a formal way to tie and fold everything the knots on this guys hakama just looked wrong to me.



Sorry, which hakama are you referring to? In the Ogawa Ryu clip, both the male and female practitioner are wearing indigo hakama… the only clip where white pants are worn is in the Asayama Ichiden Ryu one (video number 5)… and that's not hakama.

For the record, the dress-sense that raises eyebrows in the Ogawa Ryu clip is the use of tatsuke with keikogi… although the momohiki method shown by the gent is… unusual, to say the least.



Tony Dismukes said:


> Here we start to get into the difference between a fraudulent _individual_ (one who claims experience or credentials he doesn't have) and a fraudulent _system_.(one where the actual history is not what it is claimed to be). Your friend is not a fraud, but by your standards his system is fraudulent.



Yep, that's pretty much exactly the way I'd put it. I'd probably be tempted to label his godfather (the founder of the system in the UK) as a fraud… but my friend (and, to a fair degree, his father) are more victims of a lack of education, or being taken in by false claims and not being informed enough to recognise the lies.



Tony Dismukes said:


> The thing is, I'm not sure that "fraudulent" is the best term for describing a system where the claimed history is inaccurate.


 
I will agree that it's not always the correct term… the times it will be appropriate, in my mind, are when it's a deliberate, knowing act. This is why I'd describe my friend's system as fraudulent, but not him… he genuinely believes even the rather obviously false ideas present… such as the usage of "warrior animals and colours" given to each dan-ranked member… which is supposed to be a callback to the usage of such identifying ideas with clan loyalties… except, of course, there is nothing in Japanese history to support such a weird idea.



Tony Dismukes said:


> Martial artists are not historians.



That will depend on the martial artist in question… for example, Koryu practitioners tend to be far more than any other… as the history, lineage, and so on is a major aspect of the study. And, if we're still using my friends system as an example, that's precisely what he believes it to be (or, at the very least, directly related to them).



Tony Dismukes said:


> Most martial artists (if they particular care about their art's history) generally accept whatever mish-mash of myths, half-truths, and bits of genuine history that get passed down from their teacher, their teacher's teacher, and so on.



Again, it'll depend on the art. Honestly, if the martial artist genuinely does have a real interest in their history, they will look far beyond whatever stories they get given… and, again, in Koryu terms it's very common for people to do a lot of independent research into their schools lineage and history, separate from any stories of the school itself, or as a way to see the truth behind the poetry, so to speak.



Tony Dismukes said:


> Whatever bits you consider the greatest sins against historical veracity may have originated as lies, legitimate misunderstandings, or advertising spin in the current generation, the previous generation, or a hundred years ago or longer.



Yep, true.



Tony Dismukes said:


> Examples ...
> 
> When I was in college, I talked to an acquaintance who was a 3rd dan in TKD and who believed the myth about TKD being an ancient Korean art. (He told me that Karate was "bastardized Americanized Tae Kwon Do." ) He wasn't a liar, he just believed what his teacher had told him. Is Tae Kwon Do a fraudulent martial art because a false history was being spread that many practitioners believe.



This is where it starts to get very grey… no, I wouldn't consider TKD a "fraudulent" art… but I would consider such claims to be fraudulent.



Tony Dismukes said:


> When I was in the Bujinkan, I was taught that Togakure Ryu is an 800-year old art and that Hatusmi was the historically documented 34th generation grandmaster. In fact, only 3 of the 9 disciplines taught in the Bujinkan can be verified as existing before Takamatsu and Togakure Ryu isn't one of them. However far back Togakure Ryu does go, it almost certainly isn't 800 years old. Are the Takamatsuden arts fraudulent?



Ah, Togakure Ryu… here's a case of an unsubstantiated claim being made (one that is, honestly, highly likely to be, at the very least, greatly embellished and exaggerated). I have my personal beliefs of where it comes from, and have seen certain documents claiming to be evidence prior to Takamatsu, but when all's said and done, I'd absolutely agree that it's not the 800 years old that it's claimed to be. I'd also cast serious doubt on the claims of the history of Gyokko Ryu, Shinden Fudo Ryu, and Kukishin Ryu for that matter… but we'll take a look at how certain cultural considerations can play into things in a bit.

I will say that one out of the 9 having doubts on it's historical veracity doesn't quite equal the entire Takamatsuden being labeled fraudulent (honestly, there's a huge can of worms on many fronts there)… but can agree that a case might be well made for Togakure Ryu on a number of levels. I might also ask just how much Togakure Ryu was actually being taught at the time, of course… 



Tony Dismukes said:


> In the early decades of BJJ, Helio Gracie claimed that his Jiu-Jitsu was the true art of the samurai and that Judo was just a watered down version of the art that the Japanese had created to fool westerners.



Ha! That's adorable! And yes, I'd have major issues with any claim that BJJ is "the true art of the samurai". Again, though, a false (fraudulent) claim within the art



Tony Dismukes said:


> Later on (after his brothers had passed away) he changed his tune and claimed that he had single-handedly created BJJ by watching the rudimentary Judo that Carlos had learned from Maeda and improving it so that a smaller individual like himself could defeat large opponents. Many schools still teach this second version of BJJ history, which isn't much more accurate than the first. Is BJJ a fraudulent art?



Again, a distinction between a fraudulent claim and a fraudulent art is found here.



Tony Dismukes said:


> The commonly taught legend of Wing Chun's origin from Ng Mui and Yim Wing-Chun is probably not true. Does that mean Wing Chun is a fraudulent art?



No… but I'll deal with why more in the next example.



Tony Dismukes said:


> Those of us who are not Shintoist are unlikely to believe the claim that the secrets of Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu were originally given to Choi-sai by Futsunushi no kami. Is Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu a fraudulent martial art?



There is a real danger in looking at arts from a different culture… one of which is to take things on face value, when that's far from the intended. This is the case with Shinto Ryu, Kashima Shinryu, Wing Chun, and potentially at least, some of the Takamatsuden traditions, as well as many, many others.

To take the Shinto Ryu story… Iizasa Choisai was an experienced warrior, a veteran of battle and war, skilled with a spear and sword, who had come to near the end of his career. In his journeys with his entourage, he came to the Katori Shrine… where he stopped for a time to train and meditate on the experiences of his life. During this time, he was vitiated in a dream by the God of the shrine, Futsunushi no Kami, who presented him with a scroll detailing the secrets of all martial arts… which became the basis of Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu.

Now, if we take this as literal, it's obviously not a realistic story. Choisai received a scroll in a dream (in most versions, he woke up holding the scroll)… but is it meant to be literal? I don't think so. What's it really saying? Well… it tells me that, after many years of experience and warfare, Iizasa Choisai was in a position unusual for someone of his occupation… old age. He'd managed to gather quite a number of followers and retainers… who looked to him for guidance and instruction. When arriving at Katori Shrine, he took it upon himself to dedicate himself to gaining a greater understanding based on everything he'd experienced so far… and, I believe, had what is often referred to as a "Eureka" moment… a sudden revelation of a training methodology, an insight of how to formulate a single system that taught everything a warrior would need to know. And he worked on that methodology, eventually writing it all down in a scroll to formalise the lessons. But where did this revelation come from? Well… it came from Choisai himself… as he meditated in this Shinto Shrine… focusing his thoughts towards the guardian deity, Futsunushi no Kami. As a result, is it surprising that such a revelation, such a new understanding would be taken as a divine inspiration? Especially in the mid-15th Century?

These stories aren't literal, any more than the Bible is literal. They're allegorical… and, as such, are as true and any actual historically verified event or location. And they are not what makes a system fraudulent… as they are an expression of a truth, not a deliberate misdirection and denial of the truth (such as the claim that TKD is 2,000 years old).



Tony Dismukes said:


> I think it's sufficient to note the places where the claimed history of an art diverge from what is known or what is likely and reserve "fraud" for the individuals who are knowingly attempting to deceive.



Honestly, I think we need at least one more category. I think we can divide the issue of fraud in martial arts into  the following:
- Fraudulent person: someone who has presented false credentials, claimed aspects of their history and training, or of their art, which are deliberately and demonstrably false.
- Fraudulent system: a system which is designed specifically to mislead, or to portray itself as something that it's not.

Note that a fraudulent person might be teaching a legit art (or, at least claiming to be… say, someone who had taken a couple of years of TKD creating their own school and claiming to be a 10th Dan master with 30 years experience), or a fraudulent system itself (the same TKD instructor who re-styles themselves as the only practitioner of the super-secret samurai art of Dim Mak Tai Chi Jutsu)… and that a fraudulent system, particularly if it's past it's first generation, might well be taught by people not fraudulent by nature, but simply teaching as they've been taught (both my friend and Junsei Ryu on the previous page are examples of this).

When it comes to places where the claimed history of an art diverges from historically verified reality, that's honestly not enough to label a system as fraud… depending on what and why the claims were made in the first place. One way to look at it is to examine internal consistency… these fraudulent systems simply lack it (again, Junsei Ryu claiming to be a preservation of traditional Samurai martial arts, but using Okinawan basics for Japanese weaponry, my friends system doing much the same, as well as having a range of telltale signs in the "Japanese" aspects that betray the actual origins, and so on).

When it comes to examples such as the TKD stories, here you have a case of a legit system having fraudulent claims (primarily for propaganda purposes). Same with the various BJJ history versions. But these arts maintain an internal consistency… which is a hallmark of a legitimate system. The fake systems don't have that.

For example, these are all the same system… one which claims to be tied to traditional Japanese arts, and is focused on preserving those traditions:
















When inquiring about the weapon work, I was told that "obviously there's some Shinto (Muso) Ryu there…" For the record, this is Shinto Muso Ryu:






… so… no.

It should also be noted that these are hardly the greatest offenders that I've seen from that system… but they should be enough to make my point. I should also note that just because a system is modern, and eclectic, doesn't in and of itself make it fraudulent. Elder's system of Miyama Ryu, for instance, is a modern, Western take on Japanese arts… but there is no claim to be anything other than what it is. The systems that it is derived from are all documented, as is the training time and experience of the founder… no fraudulent claims of being an old samurai methodology are found.

Fraud is a very difficult thing to get a handle on… in some cases, certain aspects are fraud, but the overall approach or system isn't. Or an individual within a system might be (or, at least, claiming to be within a system)… or you might have very genuine people who further poor information and incorrect understandings or expressions. While not their fault at all, it doesn't remove the damage done… to once again take my friends system, as noted, the students train hard and diligently… my friend is a dedicated and sincere teacher and practitioner… but what is being taught is incorrect and based in gross misunderstandings of Japanese martial arts and history. Which would lead to a new generation of martial practitioners who have a lot of false beliefs… which, no matter how far from the origin of the art (the founder in the UK) we get, is never going to be correct, accurate, or anything other than false.


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 5, 2015)

I agree with a lot of your analysis, Chris, but I'll play Devil's advocate for a bit ...



Chris Parker said:


> I will agree that it's not always the correct term… the times it will be appropriate, in my mind, are when it's a deliberate, knowing act.



After a few generations, though, it becomes hard to determine intent. Was the bogus history passed down by the founder a deliberate lie or just an uneducated misunderstanding?



Chris Parker said:


> This is where it starts to get very grey… no, I wouldn't consider TKD a "fraudulent" art… but I would consider such claims to be fraudulent.



Agreed.



Chris Parker said:


> And yes, I'd have major issues with any claim that BJJ is "the true art of the samurai". Again, though, a false (fraudulent) claim within the art



Agreed. Although if Helio's original story was still the dominant history being presented to the public I wonder if you would be a little harsher in judging it a fraudulent art.



Chris Parker said:


> When it comes to examples such as the TKD stories, here you have a case of a legit system having fraudulent claims (primarily for propaganda purposes). Same with the various BJJ history versions. But these arts maintain an internal consistency… which is a hallmark of a legitimate system. The fake systems don't have that.



Hmm ... back when I took TKD (33-34 years ago) I saw 3 major components:

Forms (from Shotokan, although I didn't know it at the time) - lots of stepping through low, wide stances using punches, knife hands, and hard-style blocks.

Sparring - bouncy, bouncy, high stances and high kicks.

"Self-defense" - escapes and joint locks against grabs while standing in a natural stance.

The three components used completely different body dynamics and implied tactical assumptions.

Maybe I went to a bad TKD school and maybe the art has evolved in the decades since, but at that time I wasn't seeing a lot of internal consistency.

Honestly, I think "internal consistency" is probably a better marker of a _good_ system than of a historically non-fraudulent system. I've seen newer systems created with and without good internal consistency, regardless of whether the claimed history was accurate.



Chris Parker said:


> Now, if we take this as literal, it's obviously not a realistic story. Choisai received a scroll in a dream (in most versions, he woke up holding the scroll)… but is it meant to be literal? I don't think so. What's it really saying? Well… it tells me that, after many years of experience and warfare, Iizasa Choisai was in a position unusual for someone of his occupation… old age. He'd managed to gather quite a number of followers and retainers… who looked to him for guidance and instruction. When arriving at Katori Shrine, he took it upon himself to dedicate himself to gaining a greater understanding based on everything he'd experienced so far… and, I believe, had what is often referred to as a "Eureka" moment… a sudden revelation of a training methodology, an insight of how to formulate a single system that taught everything a warrior would need to know. And he worked on that methodology, eventually writing it all down in a scroll to formalise the lessons. But where did this revelation come from? Well… it came from Choisai himself… as he meditated in this Shinto Shrine… focusing his thoughts towards the guardian deity, Futsunushi no Kami. As a result, is it surprising that such a revelation, such a new understanding would be taken as a divine inspiration? Especially in the mid-15th Century?
> 
> These stories aren't literal, any more than the Bible is literal. They're allegorical…



The thing is, there are still plenty of people who _do_ take everything in the Bible completely literally, even in this day and age. (Well .. they claim to, although many seem to be rather selective in which parts they read.)  Given that, are we certain that 15th century students of Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu all took the origin story as allegorical and didn't believe that Choisai had an actual scroll from the kami? Beats me. Perhaps an historian of the period might have a better idea.

With regards to the Wing Chun origin story, I've encountered plenty of people who take the myth as historical fact. Were early-20th century Chinese students of the art more likely to regard the story as allegory? I have no idea.


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 5, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> For example, these are all the same system… one which claims to be tied to traditional Japanese arts, and is focused on preserving those traditions:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Just got around to watching the "tanto kata." Oh ... my. Do these people think that is an actual traditional kata or just that it has something to do with traditional Japanese knife usage? (Obviously, they're deluded either way. Even I can tell that, despite it being outside my bailiwick.)


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## Chris Parker (Oct 6, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I agree with a lot of your analysis, Chris, but I'll play Devil's advocate for a bit …



Ha, cool.



Tony Dismukes said:


> After a few generations, though, it becomes hard to determine intent. Was the bogus history passed down by the founder a deliberate lie or just an uneducated misunderstanding?



Is there a difference?

Once a system goes beyond it's first generation, it becomes the same anyway… my friend's system is a good case in point. His godfather knew that he was making much of it up… coming up with stories of where certain parts came from… deliberately giving fraudulent stories and claims… however, my friends father and my friend himself are simply following the way they were taught… which makes it an uneducated misunderstanding on their part. But that doesn't make the claims any less fraudulent/false… it only changes the intent behind presenting them. But the reason for the fraud in the first place remains the same… to deliberately confuse and mislead. The biggest difference is not even why the claims are being repeated… as, when you get to that point, you're really just dealing with victims of the fraud themselves. Of course, should said victims become aware of the reality, and continue to present a fraudulent claim… that's where we get back to deliberate misleading.



Tony Dismukes said:


> Agreed.



Cool.



Tony Dismukes said:


> Agreed. Although if Helio's original story was still the dominant history being presented to the public I wonder if you would be a little harsher in judging it a fraudulent art.



Perhaps… well, quite likely, actually… the phrase "Basically Just Judo" might get thrown around with a little more vigour, at least...



Tony Dismukes said:


> Hmm ... back when I took TKD (33-34 years ago) I saw 3 major components:
> 
> Forms (from Shotokan, although I didn't know it at the time) - lots of stepping through low, wide stances using punches, knife hands, and hard-style blocks.
> 
> ...



Hmm… while I can't speak for your experience, or the school you attended, I will say that I can see nothing there that absolutely denies internal consistency… outward appearances can sometimes be rather misleading themselves… I mean… if you saw our "street" material, and our "traditional" material, you would probably think you're looking at two completely different things… but, from my perspective, all that changes is the context and cultural "dressings"… which is what I see in the descriptions you provide.



Tony Dismukes said:


> Honestly, I think "internal consistency" is probably a better marker of a _good_ system than of a historically non-fraudulent system. I've seen newer systems created with and without good internal consistency, regardless of whether the claimed history was accurate.



The reason I say that a lack of internal consistency is a good indication of a "fake" system is that they are often an attempt to match an internal belief or imaginings of what they're trying to be… without really understanding what they're trying to be in reality. In other words, it's when you get someone making up sword methods because they think they should have them (and think they know what they're like, based on imagination only), then combine that with karate, because obviously karate is the only striking system of the samurai, plus aikido (which is only joint locks, obviously), because the samurai all used that… plus ground work, because obviously all samurai did jiujitsu… then add in some other bizarre weapons, because samurai… 



Tony Dismukes said:


> The thing is, there are still plenty of people who _do_ take everything in the Bible completely literally, even in this day and age. (Well .. they claim to, although many seem to be rather selective in which parts they read.)



I know… and, obviously, I have my own views on that… but to avoid upsetting some here, I won't voice them. I'm sure you can figure out what they are, though, my friend...



Tony Dismukes said:


> Given that, are we certain that 15th century students of Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu all took the origin story as allegorical and didn't believe that Choisai had an actual scroll from the kami? Beats me. Perhaps an historian of the period might have a better idea.



Honestly, I don't know that that matters either (I will point out that such stories were regarded with as much skepticism as they would be today… Musashi wrote warning about believing stories of schools being founded by the gods, or their influence… he was pretty much directly referencing Shinto Ryu there, by the way…). To take it back to a Biblical concept, for those that believe that the Bible is the transmitted Word of God, but also believe that that Word is far more allegorical than historically accurate, filled with lessons and moral guidance for a life lived well and in service of others, does it matter if others have believed that the Word is exact and literal? After all, in a way, by recognising that the story is allegorical you are affirming it's intrinsic truth at it's heart…

Is Shinto Ryu divinely inspired? According to the founder, yes. Does that mean that the literal way that inspiration is described is true (in a cold, hard, factual sense)? No… but it's not meant to be. Is the Bible the Transmitted Word of God? To a Christian, yes. Does that mean that everything in it is literal and true (in a cold, hard, factual sense)? No… but it's not meant to be.



Tony Dismukes said:


> With regards to the Wing Chun origin story, I've encountered plenty of people who take the myth as historical fact. Were early-20th century Chinese students of the art more likely to regard the story as allegory? I have no idea.



Again, that'd be a question for them.



Tony Dismukes said:


> Just got around to watching the "tanto kata." Oh ... my. Do these people think that is an actual traditional kata or just that it has something to do with traditional Japanese knife usage? (Obviously, they're deluded either way. Even I can tell that, despite it being outside my bailiwick.)



I'll address this more in my PM to you, but, no, they don't think it's a traditional kata… but they do believe that it's based in actual, traditional tanto-jutsu learnt in Japan and Okinawa… if you go to the you-tube link, you'll see the explanation in the comments.


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 6, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> Hmm… while I can't speak for your experience, or the school you attended, I will say that I can see nothing there that absolutely denies internal consistency… outward appearances can sometimes be rather misleading themselves… I mean… if you saw our "street" material, and our "traditional" material, you would probably think you're looking at two completely different things… but, from my perspective, all that changes is the context and cultural "dressings"… which is what I see in the descriptions you provide.


 
I would suspect that your "traditional" and your "street" material use the same (or at least congruent) underlying body mechanics though, even if the details of application are different. do they not?


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## pgsmith (Oct 6, 2015)

Makes me think of what I was told by an older Japanese gentleman quite a number of years ago. It was after training and we were at the bar drinking (standard procedure in Japan back then  ) and I was lamenting all of those people making up their own arts and selling them to unsuspecting folks. When I asked if it bothered him that they were labeling this stuff Japanese budo, even though it had no real connection with Japan, this is what he told me ... "That is not my problem, that is my great-grandchildren's problem. If the art that these people have invented is worthy, it will survive and grow, and my great-grandchildren will have to check into it to see if it is worth training in. If it is a poor art, they will not have to worry about it because it will no longer exist. Either way, it isn't my problem so I refuse to worry about it."


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## Chris Parker (Oct 8, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I would suspect that your "traditional" and your "street" material use the same (or at least congruent) underlying body mechanics though, even if the details of application are different. do they not?



Yes, they do… but (from the outside… or even the inside, until you get a much better understanding of them) it's hard to see that. If you think of something like Seigan no Kamae (Koto Ryu… testing your memory, there, mate!), and do a side-by-side comparison with Geoff Thompson's "fence"… to us, they're the same thing in many ways… but physically, they look very different. Tactically, though… 



pgsmith said:


> Makes me think of what I was told by an older Japanese gentleman quite a number of years ago. It was after training and we were at the bar drinking (standard procedure in Japan back then  ) and I was lamenting all of those people making up their own arts and selling them to unsuspecting folks. When I asked if it bothered him that they were labeling this stuff Japanese budo, even though it had no real connection with Japan, this is what he told me ... "That is not my problem, that is my great-grandchildren's problem. If the art that these people have invented is worthy, it will survive and grow, and my great-grandchildren will have to check into it to see if it is worth training in. If it is a poor art, they will not have to worry about it because it will no longer exist. Either way, it isn't my problem so I refuse to worry about it."



Yeah… and I get the attitude. My feeling is that that's fine for someone who has chosen what they're doing, and knows what they're doing… my concern is (as you said) "selling them to unsuspecting folks"… as well as furthering bad (false) information. This is where we get people arguing against the actual reality, as they've been taught something that's not correct… and, in todays world, it's easier than ever before to be influential with that bad information. You can do you-tube videos… self-publish books (or, it seems, get actual publishing houses to print anything if you can put yourself across as knowledgable… looking at you, Antony Cummins…)… present yourself as an "expert"… and have all of this accepted. That's really what concerns me.


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## Danny T (Oct 8, 2015)

...and is why I use the term 'legend' when speaking to the supposed histories of the arts I am involved in. I wasn't there and neither were my instructors during their developments. All were developed over several years, decades even. All have gone through numerous changes within their development and some continue to do so. (especially those open to today's weapon changes and tactics)


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## Chris Parker (Oct 9, 2015)

I typically phrase things as "According to this system/ryu, their history is…."


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## lklawson (Oct 9, 2015)

hoshin1600 said:


> my question is, out in the real world if you found out someone in your community was a complete MA fraud with no lineage other than reading books and watching youtube videos, what would you do about it if anything?


What would I do?  Don't you mean, "what have you done?"  Because, frankly, anyone who's studied martial arts for more than a few years has seen what you're talking about.

I've seen variations of it several times.  You know what I've done?

Nothing.

Yup.  What I did.  Nothing. Nada. Zip.  Zilch.

I don't know about you, but I live in a Free Market system (more or less).  If the guy is selling a product to his customers that they desire then, by all means, let them buy it.  If the students later on find out that they can't actually fight, then they can leave and go some where else.  Maybe the product he's selling isn't actual skill at fighting but, "self confidence, discipline, mutual understanding, respect, fitness, tradition" and all the other mule-muffins that the martial arts community as a whole uses to promote the awesomeness of martial arts training.  See, you don't actually have to be able to fight, or have *ANY* reputable martial skills whatsoever to be able to sell (and sometimes deliver) those things.

And what if the guy doesn't have a "legitimate" lineage?  Does anyone actually believe the story of Ng Mui teaching Yim Wing Chun to solve her lovers triangle?  A better question would be "can the instructor actually teach the students how to fight?"  That's way more important than what supposed "lineage" is.

I, personally, like the old Western method.  If you could teach your students how to successfully fight, you're school flourished.  If you were a successful fighter, either as a duelist or as a military man, your instruction was in demand.  Having the right teacher could pad your resume a little bit but you had to be able to fight, and if you fought well no one gave a fat fiddler's fart if you didn't have a respectable lineage, or any lineage at all!  One famous and successful Master of Fencing claimed that he learned the very basics from his Village's instructor then honed his art in multiple successive military campaigns, and then gained the final polish by working security at his wife's whore-house.  That's his "lineage?"  Bouncer at a whore-house?  Yeah, but he knows how to *FIGHT*, *KILL*, and *WIN* and can teach.

So what do I do when I see people teaching B.S.?  Nothing.  If someone comes to me and specifically asks my opinion of said instructor's skills or the quality of the martial art in question, I'll tell them honestly.  But I'm not going to go out of my way to "do" anything about it.  I have more productive things to do.  ...like trimming my nose-hair or something.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Oct 9, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> Tony Dismukes said:
> 
> 
> > Martial artists are not historians.
> ...


*cough*HEMA*cough*...

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 9, 2015)

lklawson said:


> *cough*HEMA*cough*...
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


Okay, okay. *Most* martial artists are not historians.


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## Chris Parker (Oct 9, 2015)

lklawson said:


> *cough*HEMA*cough*...
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



Ha, yes, that would be another good example…


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## Koshiki (Oct 9, 2015)

hoshin1600 said:


> ...if you found out someone in your community was a complete MA fraud with no lineage other than reading books and watching youtube videos, what would you do about it if anything?



To return to the OP. As most have said, I'd like to think most of us would do nothing about it, except for maybe talking to the person in question to learn more about them.

More than that, there is the possibility, albeit rare, that a dedicated individual, through sparring and training with others and careful study of books and videos, could become easily as competent as many, many school owners out there with verifiable teachers and lineages.

I guess what I'm getting at, is I'm much more worked up about whether someone is teaching well or is teaching absolute bunk, then I am about who their teacher was or wasn't...


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## WaterGal (Oct 9, 2015)

I think having a legitimate lineage - or a certified rank from a major organizing body for your style - means that it's much more _likely _that what someone teaches will be the "real deal" for that style.  Of course, that doesn't mean it'll be an effective fighting style, that they'll teach it well, that they have decent standards, etc. But I think they're more likely to actually understand the underlying principles of the style, how to generate power in the techniques, be experienced with that style of sparring, etc than someone who learned from just watching a video and practicing with their friends. 

I do think that it's more common for a teacher to have a real lineage/certification but terrible standards, than to have a teacher who falsely claims rank in a style, though I've seen both.  Both are disappointing.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 9, 2015)

Ones ability to fight is in no way an automatic indicator that they know anything, or have any real skill in a martial system or method.  It is not difficult to hurt someone.  You do not need an excellent martial system nor superior technique to do so.  Raw aggression, natural talent, and simple athleticism can actually take one far and provide what is necessary to defeat even a well trained martial artist.  So don't make the mistake of thinking that is an automatic indicator.  

While being a good fighter, that person may have no method that he can teach or pass on to others.  What makes him successful, even without a proper martial method backing him up, may be entirely innate and something he cannot teach to others.

He has nothing to teach, he has no knowledge and no martial skill that can be traced to a specific system or method, even tho he can fight.

Just an observation, kinda  rhetorical.


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## Hanzou (Oct 9, 2015)

So an online blue belt from Gracie University decided to pretend to be a 2 stripe black belt, and attempt to teach a Bjj class. The response from the Bjj community was swift, and decisive. Not only did this guy lose his job as a BJJ instructor at the dojo he was teaching at, but Rener Gracie dropped the hammer:

Rener Gracie


Based on the information gathered and the fact that Mr. McMahon has received no jiu-jitsu instruction from any sources outside of his study through Gracie University, we can conclude, without a doubt, that he is misrepresenting himself as a jiu-jitsu black belt.

*Black Belts Are NOT Transferable*

With the explosive popularity of MMA and jiu-jitsu, many martial arts schools are offering multiple disciplines under one roof. This, in and of itself, is not a problem. If however, a black belt instructor of one discipline such as Tang Soo Do, decides that he will wear a black belt when teaching a jiu-jitsu class, even though he is not a black belt in jiu-jitsu, this is called "Black Belt Transferring" and this is a SERIOUS problem.

There is a strict policy against Black Belt Transferring at all Gracie Academy Certified Training Centers, and even though Mr. McMahon is not certified to teach, and his school has no affiliation to the Gracie Academy, his actions are condemnable.

As jiu-jitsu's popularity continues to grow at an unprecedented rate, fraudulent black belts will continue to surface. It's up to the community to continue reporting suspicious activity so that people are not mislead regarding the authenticity of their instructor's rank or lineage.

*All frauds must fall.*
-Rener Gracie​


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## kuniggety (Oct 9, 2015)

I saw this the other day in Gracie Insider. It's pathetic. I don't know how these guys think they won't get caught. The first time a real blue belt walks in and destroys him on the matts then the gig will be up.


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## Koshiki (Oct 9, 2015)

WaterGal said:


> I think having a legitimate lineage - or a certified rank from a major organizing body for your style - means that it's much more _likely _that what someone teaches will be the "real deal" for that style.



Oh, undoubtedly. The better your teacher, the better your training and learning likely was, therefore the better the teaching and training you provide will likely be.

However, it's still the teaching and training, not the lineage, that counts to me.



WaterGal said:


> I do think that it's more common for a teacher to have a real lineage/certification but terrible standards, than to have a teacher who falsely claims rank in a style, though I've seen both.



Yeah, I definitely say that it's far more common to find a good martial who just isn't a good teacher, has low standards, is more interested in making money than teaching, than it is to find someone teaching who legitimately doesn't know what they're doing. I can think of a few of the former, but not many of the latter, from personal experience.



Hanzou said:


> So an online blue belt from Gracie University decided to pretend to be a 2 stripe black belt, and attempt to teach a Bjj class. The response from the Bjj community was swift, and decisive. Not only did this guy lose his job as a BJJ instructor at the dojo he was teaching at, but Rener Gracie dropped the hammer.



Aside from BJJ just being pretty darn cool, this is one of my favorite aspects about the community. They are cohesive in their approach, and they don't suffer fools and pretenders gladly. It's nice to know that, if you walk into most BJJ classes, you'll generally get at least competent instruction in the real deal. Whereas, my own style for example, TKD, you can find everything from day-care classes with some bag work, to hard-core WTF sport training, to stuff that's basically just Karate with a few more kicks, to stuff that looks like it was basically made up on the spot.


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## Hanzou (Oct 9, 2015)

kuniggety said:


> I saw this the other day in Gracie Insider. It's pathetic. I don't know how these guys think they won't get caught. The first time a real blue belt walks in and destroys him on the matts then the gig will be up.



I don't get it either. Of all things to fake, don't fake being a Bjj black belt. The Bjj culture has been structured to the point where anyone wearing a black belt has the equivalent of a target on their back.


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## Hyoho (Oct 10, 2015)

hoshin1600 said:


> that was easy...video number 2 is clearly the real deal.    but your right the Jigen Ryu video looks like something that is fake but i think i have seen the style before so i am guessing its real but i am not a Koryu expert.  the last video has me guessing as well.  i see some Japanese art in it as well as some Chinese Chin-na but i dont see some tell tale signs of it being Chin-na, it just stands out to me as legit technique but as a "put together" system.  thats my guess for what its worth ( not much).


Jigenryu did not have a heihosho until the present headmaster Togo Shigenori took over when his father passed away. They used to meet by arrangement and move from place to place. The present heihosho has a shiriokan (small museum next door) and the family live behind.

I can assure you this is this one and only heihosho in Kagoshima. I have practiced there myself after doing an embu at Saigo Takamori's Shrine. More info here on an old post. Jigen Ryu Kenjutsu?


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## Koshiki (Oct 10, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Of all things to fake, don't fake being a Bjj black belt.



I know. If I wanted to fake a martial arts background, I wouldn't choose something that every layman has heard of, that constantly tests itself in and is structured around competition, and that has a relatively pervasive and centralized authority...

I'd choose some obscure or fictitious art and discourage outside communication and sparring. I'd want something where no one would even know what a legitimate knowledge of the system would entail, let alone how to challenge it...


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## Hyoho (Oct 10, 2015)

I complain about YouTube but in a way its good as it really shows up the fakers to the trained eye. It only fools those inexperienced that might want to join. A lot of time its inexperienced that post this stuff anyway. A 'belt belt' is a qualified beginner. It starts with 7/8 kyu ranks whatever then goes to 7/8 dans depending on the "invented system".  An association awards rank. Start you own association and anything goes!


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## Balrog (Oct 13, 2015)

Buka said:


> Then there was another kind of fraud altogether. They were well versed in cherry picking students who had large egos and even larger wallets. They would run background checks on their students, get full family histories. Then they'd start playing to the right egos. They'd film them and then "send the tape to the exalted, high Master" in the old country. Then they'd tell them the Master sees something in them that he rarely sees anymore. He wants them to enroll in an advanced instructors course. Seventy thousand dollars later (in less than eighteen months) he would be filmed again, tape sent to the Master, and be encouraged to enroll in the Grand Poobah Master's Program.
> 
> I know what you're thinking, "Nobody would fall for that!"  Unfortunately, they would and did. I worked with the FBI to get some of these Mother F'rs shut down and convicted. They, too, were a national chain.
> 
> So, to me, there's different levels of fraud.


I remember the big scandal with Master John C. Kim back in the 90s.  They had a school about 8 blocks down the road from where I trained and they charged humongo fees.  I remember a newspaper ad they ran where they offered an accelerated program to earn Black Belt in one year for only (!) $20,000.  My instructor looked at that and laughed and said, "I gotta raise my rates."  Back then, we were paying $65 a month  .  About six months later was when the scandal blew up and a few months after that, their school had closed and the building was taken over by a video rental store.

A couple of years after that, we had to move the school.  We chose a location that had previously been built out as a Taekwondo school.  When we opened, we had several of the former students from that school stop by looking for the instructor.  Seems she had presold a bunch of training programs, then shut the doors in the night and vanished with the cash.  I was astounded and told every one those folks to come train with me at no charge - even though she wasn't in my organization, she made the rest of us look bad and I told those students I would make it right for them.  I picked up about a dozen students that trained to at least 1st Degree with me out of that.


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## Balrog (Oct 13, 2015)

Zack Cart said:


> I know. If I wanted to fake a martial arts background, I wouldn't choose something that every layman has heard of, that constantly tests itself in and is structured around competition, and that has a relatively pervasive and centralized authority...
> 
> I'd choose some obscure or fictitious art and discourage outside communication and sparring. I'd want something where no one would even know what a legitimate knowledge of the system would entail, let alone how to challenge it...


Agreed.  That is a big thing with us when we have new prospects come visit the school.  We can show them our rank certificates and call up our entire testing history from White Belt onward on the organization website.  I've had a couple of folks ask what our lineage is and we are happy to show them.


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## Buka (Oct 14, 2015)

Balrog said:


> A couple of years after that, we had to move the school.  We chose a location that had previously been built out as a Taekwondo school.  When we opened, we had several of the former students from that school stop by looking for the instructor.  Seems she had presold a bunch of training programs, then shut the doors in the night and vanished with the cash.  I was astounded and told every one those folks to come train with me at no charge - even though she wasn't in my organization, she made the rest of us look bad and I told those students I would make it right for them.  I picked up about a dozen students that trained to at least 1st Degree with me out of that.



That's so awesome. The Martial Arts need more like you, my friend.


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## punisher73 (Oct 14, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by free-flow belts?
> 
> The Gracie University online belt system is controversial, but a few things should be noted:
> 
> ...



One minor change to how the GU does things now.  If you ONLY do the online/video training with a partner and send in your test, you only qualify for a "technical blue belt" now, a minor variation on the actual blue belt rank.  For ANY rank, it must be done live at one of their approved testing centers/schools.


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## punisher73 (Oct 14, 2015)

As to the whole martial arts "frauds" thing.  I think honesty is the key.  If you studied x, y and z and put it together into your own thing and call it something else.  That's fine, just be honest that it is your own thing.

But, even back in Funakoshi's day, he commented in his autobiography about new schools popping up with styles he had never heard of before.  Nothing new under the sun.  I have heard many stories of cross-oceanic promotions in many styles.  The person was a 1st or 2nd degree when they got on the plane and landed as a 5th or above.  Rank is fickle, in reality it has no meaning outside of its own school/organization.  Which is more impressive to people who really know martial arts, a black belt in TKD or a black belt in BJJ?  Judgment aside, we know that it is VERY hard to get a blackbelt in BJJ and in many places, you can sign a contract to get a TKD blackbelt in 1-2 years.  The year TKD blackbelt now opens a school and starts teaching, it's not "fraudulant", but you are also not going to be getting a high quality study probably.  Then THOSE students get rank and then pass it on and so forth.  But it is all "legit".....So again--rank, lineage etc.  are not good indicators of anything in today's world.

Of course, there is something to be said about the "old days" if you declared a new style that you took on all challenges to show that what you were doing was legitimate.  Even then, just because the founder was a good fighter doesn't mean that he is a good teacher and can impart those skills to others.  I think we can all use our "google-fu" and find some very popular styles that are thought of as jokes now because the founders changed the training to make it easier and more marketable to the masses and lots got lost to it's effectiveness (even though it is still there in the katas/forms and drills for those who seek it).


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 14, 2015)

punisher73 said:


> Rank is fickle, in reality it has no meaning outside of its own school/organization.  Which is more impressive to people who really know martial arts, a black belt in TKD or a black belt in BJJ



Neither. Because, as you said, rank has no real meaning outside the school/org that issues it. That could be the weakest BJJ in the world, and an Olympic gold medal winning Tae Kwon Do competitor. 



Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.


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## RTKDCMB (Oct 15, 2015)

punisher73 said:


> The person was a 1st or 2nd degree when they got on the plane and landed as a 5th or above.


One of my old Hapkido instructors did that. It reminds me of the scene in Bill and Ted's Bogus Journey when they were at the concert and were still not very good so they went away in their Phone booth time machine for "an intense 16 months of guitar training" and came back a few seconds later playing like pros.


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## Paul_D (Oct 15, 2015)

The flip side of the coin is what do we you about instructors with high ranks, in legitimate system, with traceable histories that teach things that we know to be incorrect or unworkable?

Some of the biggest nonsense I have been taught has been taught to me by high ranking instructors in legitimate arts with traceable histories.

I will use Karate as an example, purely as it is the example about which I have the most information.

We know that there are no blocks in karate, and that when Karate was introduced to the Okinawan schools Itosu disguised techniques as “blocks” as the real techniques were too dangerous to give to children (joint manipulation./breaks, throws etc).  The idea of course was that when they became adults, the real nature of the movements would be revealed to them.  Unfortunately it was this children’s version of karate that eventually became popular and spread.  Hence we today have instructors teaching "blocks".  Now I am not suggestion they are deliberately trying to mislead their students, they are just passing on in good faith what they were taught.  (Before the internet of course the only information available to students was what was given to them by their instructors and was taken at face value, hence situations such as this have arisen).

Similarly the turns in Kata are often (incorrectly) taught as “turns to face a new enemy”.  This was rubbished as far back as 1938 my Mabuni “The meaning of the directions in kata is not well understood, and frequently mistakes are made in the interpretation of kata movements. In extreme cases, it is sometimes heard that "this kata moves in 8 directions so it is designed for fighting 8 opponents" or some such nonsense.”

Mabuni is explicitly clear that the angle is not the angle of attack form the enemy (as most modern karateka believe), but the angle we assume in relation to the enemy, in order to be in the best position for the technique in question.

These things we know to be inaccurate (or false if you will) and yet they are prevalent in many karate classes to this day.  Here however the cloak of legitimate rank and traceable history paints over the cracks.

I am sure there are other examples in other arts of course, but as stated, I have used Karate purely as it is the example about which I have the most information.

They only thing we can do is to put the real message out there, Youtube, websites etc and hope that eventually a student’s thirst for knowledge will lead them to question the legitimacy of what they are being taught, whether it is by a charlatan trying to fleece them, or instructors with legitimate ranks who unknowingly (or perhaps knowingly) are passing on false information.


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## lklawson (Oct 15, 2015)

Paul_D said:


> The flip side of the coin is what do we you about instructors with high ranks, in legitimate system, with traceable histories that teach things that we know to be incorrect or unworkable?


The same as for "frauds."  To whit: "nothing."  Just ignore it and teach what you believe to be valid.



> I will use Karate as an example, purely as it is the example about which I have the most information.
> 
> We know that there are no blocks in karate, and that when Karate was introduced to the Okinawan schools Itosu disguised techniques as “blocks” as the real techniques were too dangerous to give to children (joint manipulation./breaks, throws etc).


3... 2... 1... annnnnd GO!

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 15, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> Neither. Because, as you said, rank has no real meaning outside the school/org that issues it. That could be the weakest BJJ in the world, and an Olympic gold medal winning Tae Kwon Do competitor.


True, knowing just their ranks doesn't give you enough information to necessarily distinguish between two practitioners. There are (just for an example) many, many TKD black belts out there who are much more accomplished martial artists than I am.

What the BJJ community is vociferous about is brand protection of a sort - making sure that any BJJ black belt from any school or organization can be expected to live up to certain (reasonably high) minimum standards. (Using myself again as an example - I'm a lot closer to the worst BJJ black belt in the world than I am to the best, but I'm still a reasonably competent martial artist.) Calling out fraudulent black belts is part of the brand protection process. I've seen several examples in this last year or so of fake BJJ black belts being called out (sometimes with the confrontation being captured on YouTube) and being publically humiliated and/or losing the teaching position they had gotten using their fraudulent credentials.

Right now, there's a bit of a furor in the online BJJ community over a couple of teenage girls who are running a school in Colorado. Apparently these girls had earned black belts in either Kajukenbo (or some Kajukenbo-derived hybrid art, it's unclear which) under their old instructor before said instructor went to prison for child molestation. Their parents bought the school when the old instructor was locked up and the girls took over as teachers. The girls then got blue belts from the Gracie University and went through instructor training so they could set up their school as a Gracie Certified Training Center where they teach both BJJ and whatever their hybrid striking art is.

This would be annoying enough to many BJJ folks, especially since they are competing with an established BJJ school that has multiple black belts, but at least some folks would be inclined to roll their eyes and move on. What really stirred an uproar is that the girls apparently decided that their striking art should use the same design of black belt that BJJ does. This design (with a red panel indicating instructor status on which stripes are added to denote degrees) is pretty unique to BJJ. I don't think I've seen it used in any other art.

Supposedly the girls wear their blue belts when teaching BJJ classes and their black belts when teaching their striking art. However pictures emerged of them wearing their BJJ-style black belts over their BJJ gis and this was widely interpreted as them claiming BJJ black belt rank. They've denied that was their intention, but there's been a big stink about it regardless.

I imagine that at some point down the line the battle may be lost and there will be enough fraudulent and/or substandard BJJ black belts that the rank will be meaningless unless you know the standards of the particular instructor/organization that promoted them, just as it is in most other martial arts. In the meantime, the brand protection process has succeeded to the extent that you can expect a certain minimum competence from any BJJ black belt, regardless of their lineage.


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## Paul_D (Oct 15, 2015)

lklawson said:


> The same as for "frauds."  To whit: "nothing."  Just ignore it and teach what you believe to be valid.
> 
> 3... 2... 1... annnnnd GO!
> 
> ...



Ahh no, that's a different discussion for a different thread


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