# Technique and Character distinguishment of Shuri, Naha, and Tomari Systems



## Makalakumu (Dec 25, 2006)

I know that the answer to this lies in the kata, but for those of us who do not know many kata in all three systems, how would we distinguish these systems?

What is the difference in character?  What is the difference in technique?  Or is the difference purely geographic as I have read in other places?


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## cstanley (Dec 25, 2006)

I would argue that they are more alike than different. I think it has more to do with what part of China the influence came from, hence, geographical. Of course, to some, a slight difference is huge.


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## twendkata71 (Dec 25, 2006)

According to my reseach. Nahate, uses rooted stances, body hardening tactics, circular blocks, and more bodybuilding, weight training. Based more on hung gar and chaun fa.
Shuri te, and Tomari te are very alike. The use higher stances, quick shifting foot work, bodyshifting, based more on the white crane style of chinese boxing. It seems that mostly tomari te has been absorbed into the shorin ryu. But, may also have its own branches like
 Ryuei ryu, and Okinawa kenpo.


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## Makalakumu (Dec 25, 2006)

When it comes to nage-te and tui-te are there any differences between the three?


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## cstanley (Dec 25, 2006)

upnorthkyosa said:


> When it comes to nage-te and tui-te are there any differences between the three?


 
That's a hard one. I'd say not many differences, but Goju (Naha) is probably more designed for close in fighting and might tend to use more of those type moves. Goju kata bunkai is very close in stuff with lots of joint locking and take downs. But, when I watch my friends in Shorin and Shito, they do the same stuff in bunkai that we do.


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## Makalakumu (Dec 26, 2006)

twendkata71 said:


> It seems that mostly tomari te has been absorbed into the shorin ryu.


 
What would have been classified as tomari-te?  What did that look like on its own?


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## cstanley (Dec 26, 2006)

upnorthkyosa said:


> What would have been classified as tomari-te? What did that look like on its own?


 
All we can do is look at the few remaining Tomari kata: Rohai, Passai Dai, Matsukaze (Wankan), Ananku, etc. and note the differences and defining characteristics. I agree that they are more like Shuri than Naha, but they are distinctive in their own way.


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## Martin h (Jan 21, 2007)

one side question is how do we know what "naha" karate really looked like.
Today we say that the 2 typical naha schools are goju ryu and Uechi ryu, but both those schools were created with a LOT of direct influence from chinese arts. Both the goju founder, Chojun miyagi, and his teacher, [SIZE=-1]Kanryo Higaona,[/SIZE] spent a lot of time training white crane in china before creating goju (and most of its katas). 
The founder of Uechiryu, Uechi[SIZE=-1] Kanbun,[/SIZE] had almost no martial art training at all before moving to china to train (well, to trade, but he trained aswell) -and after that he didnt train at all when he got back to okinawa and didnt start again unit he moved to mainland japan.

I dont know of any "naha" school today that is not based on one of these styles, and how do we know what distiguished karate from the naha region before this significant flood of fukien white crane influnce came along at the turn of the century?

I would say that the pre-Miyagi/Kanryo/Uechi brand of orignal "naha" karate is deader that "tomari" karate.


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## cstanley (Jan 21, 2007)

Yeah, we can only go with the Naha stuff as it has come to us from the men you mention. But, that is true of much Okinawan karate. We don't know much about Shuri/Tomari karate, either, as it was before Chinese influences were brought into the indigenous Okinawan arts. But, one could say it wasn't "karate" before then, either.


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## searcher (Jan 21, 2007)

The best way to distinguish between the three are to look at the styles that have come down from the three areas and have not crossed over.

Naha-te: Goju-ryu, Uechi-ryu, Ryuei-ryu

Shuri-te: Kobayashi, Shobayashi

Tomari-te: Matsubayashi


If you look at the different kata it is best to try and pick out the subtle differences.   Many styles have influence from one, two, or all three.   This may not be what you are looking for, but it is a good place to start.


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## Robert Lee (Jan 24, 2007)

Higaona After his return fromChina. Said to have studied shornji temple boxing Began to teach the china art. BUt found it unsuited for the Okinawan peoples needs. Blended Naha te and shornji temple boxing And i believe later Miyagi Also blend some Shuri into what became GO JU RYU. Now What id Naha te by its self would be different then GO JU RYU to a degree. And the old Kata. KORU kata would be more in line to the old Karate, tandaku geki sia, geki ha, kaku ha Kata came at a later time And have a more modern softer application To the root Of Go ju. Softer meaning being more able to publicy instruct Karate for all all people. Wher I believe the key is the old Kata better trained for selfdefence application at the past time Alot of the Old style Is being lost tranlation passing from country to country People long since gone little to hand down the true orginal teachings of certion movements Evolved applications share from not only China but from the Naha te and shuri Te Of Okinawa. As those 2 arts were the roots for the people there who Found that way best met the needs as for there build and type.  Just as when Karate was named So the okinawan arts could be taught In japan More changes came along Just training the old koru Kata Perhaps would bring closer understanding of the root of What is now called okinawan Karate.Along with the bunki kisokumite and selfdefence prearanged and open drills Based on the Say pre 1920 trainings


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## cstanley (Jan 24, 2007)

Robert Lee said:


> Higaona After his return fromChina. Said to have studied shornji temple boxing Began to teach the china art. BUt found it unsuited for the Okinawan peoples needs. Blended Naha te and shornji temple boxing And i believe later Miyagi Also blend some Shuri into what became GO JU RYU. Now What id Naha te by its self would be different then GO JU RYU to a degree. And the old Kata. KORU kata would be more in line to the old Karate, tandaku geki sia, geki ha, kaku ha Kata came at a later time And have a more modern softer application To the root Of Go ju. Softer meaning being more able to publicy instruct Karate for all all people. Wher I believe the key is the old Kata better trained for selfdefence application at the past time Alot of the Old style Is being lost tranlation passing from country to country People long since gone little to hand down the true orginal teachings of certion movements Evolved applications share from not only China but from the Naha te and shuri Te Of Okinawa. As those 2 arts were the roots for the people there who Found that way best met the needs as for there build and type. Just as when Karate was named So the okinawan arts could be taught In japan More changes came along Just training the old koru Kata Perhaps would bring closer understanding of the root of What is now called okinawan Karate.Along with the bunki kisokumite and selfdefence prearanged and open drills Based on the Say pre 1920 trainings


 
You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. You need to learn to spell and punctuate.


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## Robert Lee (Jan 24, 2007)

cstanley said:


> You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. You need to learn to spell and punctuate.


 May need improvement on key board typeing. BUT I do know About karate And Goju ryu Look back and you will learn what you think you know


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## cstanley (Jan 24, 2007)

Robert Lee said:


> May need improvement on key board typeing. BUT I do know About karate And Goju ryu Look back and you will learn what you think you know


 
You haven't said anything about karate or Goju that makes a bit of sense. Just a lot of gobbledy-gook and half-assed opinion. Better stick to JKD.


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## Robert Lee (Jan 25, 2007)

cstanley said:


> You haven't said anything about karate or Goju that makes a bit of sense. Just a lot of gobbledy-gook and half-assed opinion. Better stick to JKD.


  I will stay with JKD But have A Ranking in Goju And other Karate arts. But left behind blind training years ago. Go ju did not really have a name until Japan was interseted in the okinawan arts Perhaps it never should have  M/A is M/A NO SPECIAL magic in a name The person is the art of what that person does. truth still says The old kata was the key to what Karate really was New kata was for way to teach all people and has less original value.


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## cstanley (Jan 25, 2007)

I was taught that Goju was named after some of Miyagi's students went to Japan to attend a big taikai. They came back and told him that all the ryu in Japan had names. So, he thought about it and came up with Goju. I think this was in the '30's. I agree with you on the old kata.


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## Lisa (Jan 25, 2007)

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## Robert Lee (Jan 25, 2007)

cstanley said:


> I was taught that Goju was named after some of Miyagi's students went to Japan to attend a big taikai. They came back and told him that all the ryu in Japan had names. So, he thought about it and came up with Goju. I think this was in the '30's. I agree with you on the old kata.


 Very true I believe his student who represent him At first related it to half hard style Miyagi shose Go Ju ryu. As hard soft style saying every thing is both hard and soft.  I still have the un published book by Toguchi That cover well the history and stories plus poems for the making of what became GO Ju RYU I liked Go Ju when I was active in it And still like some of its tools.  This Book I have was not handed out until after blackbelt And was never made public passed down Has some good history of okinawan Karate And shows Anko itosu And Kanryo Higashionna As the key to the spread and development Of okinawan Karate. And shows shinsato represented Miyagi in Japen First called Go Ju Hanko ryu half hard style Then miyagi quoted the poem eight poems of the fist where it said everything in the universe is breathing hard and soft this is said to be the first style name in the karate world 
and it does state that 
miyagi did go to 
itosu 
to learn shurite But was told to watch From Shurite He devised gekisai di iche and di ni that shows the shurite influence. Just As Higshianna blended Nahate With Chinese boxing in what has became Go Ju.  I did for A few years Instruct Go Ju Ryu But like I said I moved on to other things But remember my past and respect others that stay in there chosen path.  Any M/A is useful if the person asorbs it for there self.


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## cstanley (Jan 26, 2007)

Robert Lee said:


> Very true I believe his student who represent him At first related it to half hard style Miyagi shose Go Ju ryu. As hard soft style saying every thing is both hard and soft. I still have the un published book by Toguchi That cover well the history and stories plus poems for the making of what became GO Ju RYU I liked Go Ju when I was active in it And still like some of its tools. This Book I have was not handed out until after blackbelt And was never made public passed down Has some good history of okinawan Karate And shows Anko itosu And Kanryo Higashionna As the key to the spread and development Of okinawan Karate. And shows shinsato represented Miyagi in Japen First called Go Ju Hanko ryu half hard style Then miyagi quoted the poem eight poems of the fist where it said everything in the universe is breathing hard and soft this is said to be the first style name in the karate world
> and it does state that
> miyagi did go to
> itosu
> to learn shurite But was told to watch From Shurite He devised gekisai di iche and di ni that shows the shurite influence. Just As Higshianna blended Nahate With Chinese boxing in what has became Go Ju. I did for A few years Instruct Go Ju Ryu But like I said I moved on to other things But remember my past and respect others that stay in there chosen path. Any M/A is useful if the person asorbs it for there self.


 
"Hanko" ryu was the name Mabuni first gave to Shito ryu, not Goju.


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## Robert Lee (Jan 26, 2007)

cstanley said:


> "Hanko" ryu was the name Mabuni first gave to Shito ryu, not Goju.


 This may be so. But when first named according to my writings by Toguchi, hanko ryu was the first name given for Naha Te then when told to Miyagi He then named The style as Go Ju Ryu.  And this was about 1925 Perhaps  At a time both styles looked at The hanko ryu name. And considering Shuri and Naha  te were the first arts  Later Go ju and shorin ryu And shorni ryu was to show its relation to shaolin Being called shorin ryu. Hanko ryu was a left alone nama half hard style open to any naming even for Shito ryu to use.


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## chinto (Apr 22, 2007)

shobayashi shorin ryu is about 70% tamari te.  you can see it in the kata and stances. the naihanchi stance used in shobayashi is tamari and done diferently then the in kobayashi or matsumura seito. naha te became shorei ryu and later called goju ryu, shuri te of matsumura was taken over by Itosu and became shorin ryu and much of the tamari te linige was absorbed by shorin lines.  master kyan was trained by bushi matsumura and Itosu but also by matsomora who was a tamari te practioner.  if you see for instance the passai of shobayashi and the passai of kobayashi or matsumura seito you will see the differneces instantly.


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## Ray B (Apr 25, 2007)

Shimabukuro Zenryo of the Seibukan Shorin Ryu Karate Association knows
at least two Passai. Tomari no Passai and Passai Gwa, otherwise known as
Koryu Passai. Tomari no Passai is also practiced by Matsubayashi-ryu.

I have played with Matsubayashi players as well as Shobayashi. My
background is in Kobayashi or Chibana-ha Shorin-ryu. I have found
little difference in the three as taught in Okinawa.

Karate is an amalgum of arts. Practitioners took what they knew and
added to their base. Matsumura was 4th Dan Jigen-ryu as well as
what he learned in China and from Sakugawa. The only reason there are
different Ryuha is because there were followers who were bias towards
their teacher and segregated themselves from other Ryuha.

The difference in systems was specific to the practioner. One may be
tall, short, fast or could take a punch better. Kyan was fast and agile
where as Chibana was heftier and could take a hit. Motobu liked
to get up in your face. Their karate reflects these differences.

Peace.


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## chinto (Apr 26, 2007)

Ray B said:


> Shimabukuro Zenryo of the Seibukan Shorin Ryu Karate Association knows
> at least two Passai. Tomari no Passai and Passai Gwa, otherwise known as
> Koryu Passai. Tomari no Passai is also practiced by Matsubayashi-ryu.
> 
> ...


 
yes and no, in that yes there was loyalty to their teachers, but also there was the fact that to study was illegal and the punishmants were usualy draconian in nature under the shoganate for violations of laws as i understand it. so you would tend to keep the fact that you were studeing karate secret and they did it at night and behind closed doors or hiden in places like among the tombs out of sight.  there were also cultural factors such as the fact that an instructor would have been and should still be to a point at least considerd responsible for what and when they teach a student. remember that all martial arts, especialy the older ones are predicated on life and death combat. it was not a sport then, and depending on the situation and how you are trained not one now.  when men fight then or now some one often dies. ( I'm not talking sport bouts, but men fighting for real on the street or defending their familys.) so there was also the fact that the person who studied in say 1860 did not want the fact he studied known becouse of law, but also becouse of the fact if he needed it , suprise as to what he did know was a weapon too.


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## Ray B (Apr 28, 2007)

I agree with some of your point but as for training in secret, at least
in part, no. Matsumura trained Itosu around the time you mention. They
were Palace Administrators. They could practice anytime they wanted.
What you say may be true of peasant arts (no disrespect intended) but
Motobu and Kyan had access to many teachers and their exploits
are well known.

Everyone knew of Matsumura and Itosu's abilities in Okinawa.

By the time Itosu trained Funakoshi and Chibana, Tode was not
so secretive. Both instuctors opened public dojos. IMO, karate did
not become so seperated until after it arrived on the mainland and
became "Japanised". It was then, training with other teachers became
taboo.

This is in regards to Shorin derived schools only.


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