# Attacks in Long Form 2



## sok_68 (Aug 17, 2004)

I was going over this last night in class & one of the students asked if there was a source that described attacks that went along with the movements being executed.  Specifically, this was in relation to the series of moves that are close to the end:
Forward Bow with push block
Move into twist stance with inward elbow
Step out into neutral bow with elbow followed by palm-heel/claw

As usual, any thoughts are appreciated.

-s


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## Kenpo Mama (Aug 18, 2004)

sok_68 said:
			
		

> I was going over this last night in class & one of the students asked if there was a source that described attacks that went along with the movements being executed. Specifically, this was in relation to the series of moves that are close to the end:
> Forward Bow with push block
> Move into twist stance with inward elbow
> Step out into neutral bow with elbow followed by palm-heel/claw
> ...


Hey Sok 68,

There are several wonderful websites that i have used throughout the years to supplement the information in my personal notes on forms and techs.  Brian Baker's site located here http://www.bakerfamily4.net/kenpo/index.htm  has some terrific footnotes regarding Long 2 and the technique sequences.   Mr. Billings has a great site as well which you can easily find referred to in this forum and of course there is always that other kenpo forum "Kenponet" that has a wonderful archive of all things kenpo.  There are many others i have bookmarked as favorites, but this should give you a great start.

It is always important to realize that there are many variations of the applications of the forms, so the way you may visualize your attack may be slightly different than my visualization.  Try different attacks and see if they can work in the form.  It is a really fun training tool to make it "real".

Good Journey,

Kenpo Mama :ultracool


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## bluenosekenpo (Aug 20, 2004)

taken from kenponet, excellent site btw, hope this helps. enjoy





Long Form 2 
Written Version- Long Form 2 
Patterns in the Basic Forms of Kenpo 
Short Form 2 
The Technique Forms- An Introduction 
Short Form 3 
The definition of Long Form 2 consists of advancing with front hand blocks followed by or with a front and rear hand counters. This form also features two or more strikes for each stance change as well as dual striking at times. The form actually features the combined body mechanics of both Long Form 1 and Short Form 2. 
As the last basic form, Long Form 2 also includes the pattern of in - out - up - down just as the previous forms have. Up through the downward block sections Long Form 2 is primarily an expanded version of Short Form 2. In Short Form 2, you open with a Delayed Sword without the kick. In Long Form 2, you do Five Swords without the step-off and finish. You will continue to use the cat stance as a transitional stance between the various sections and use the "cup and saucer" in order to **** your weapons. 

In the third and fourth move, we use the first move learned in Short Form 2 with the outward block and the punch and follow it with two more punches. The final punch should be cocked at your shoulder in preparation for a jab. At the same time as you execute a front hand jab you are also going to execute a front leg knife-edge "jab" A front leg and front hand counter has not been done in the forms before. 

The third sequence, or fifth and sixth moves, features a universal block that flows into an upward block and reverse hammerfist up to the groin. Look at how the striking hand moves when it is compared to its counterpart in Short Form 2. They complement each other. 

Long Form 2 also has you step back when you execute your first downward block section, something that hasn't been done since Short Form 1. The reason is based on a principle that you should never step into darkness. Don't go where you can't see what is coming. In Long Form 2, our left hand is high after the back knuckle series. We step back because we can't see around our arm to see what is coming from that angle. 

After the downward block sections, the remainder of the form represents new material and begins to teach how to use the twist stance properly. In this section, we also use the material learned from a stationary horse stance in Long Form 1. We apply the blocks and push-downs from the isolation. 

In this form, we will step away for the first downward block unlike in the previous two forms. The reason is based on our position prior to the movement. We are in a right neutral bow facing 12 o'clock with our left hand cocked high following the last backfist. We then step our right foot so we are in a left neutral bow facing 4:30 and drop our high left hand into a left downward block. 

With the downward block section we do a front hand punch and rear leg kick to complement the previous punch / kick combinations. 

Following the downward blocks, we get to new material. For the overhead dropping punch segment that follows, many people forget about the retarded ball kick that sweeps through and strikes out prior to landing in the twist stance and stepping out. This complements the previous punch / kick combinations by being a simultaneous rear leg and rear foot. The upward block / forearm strike goes under your attacker's chin to hold them up for the finger pokes. These pokes even match a later set of finger pokes found in Long Form 4. Following the first finger strike, we have to move our block back and under our current finger strike to execute a second strike to the inside of our other finger strike. 

You will see in Long Form 4 we strike over and to the outside of our finger strike in Dance of Darkness. 

As far as technique comparisons go here, Five Swords is instantly seen at the beginning with the block and the three strikes that follow. Raining Claw is also said to have been seen in this form, although it is not nearly as well-shown. And some claim the final series of elbows are reminiscent of Intercepting the Ram. 

The Twist Stance 

The twist stance is employed in three different methods of execution in this form and is used, often blatantly, for a precise instructional reason. When you are using the twist stance in this form, you are being shown examples of how to step through correct and how to use the twist stance. The goal is to use the twist stance and close out access to your centerline. The first instance has you utilize the overhead dropping punch and retarded ball kick into the twist stance. You then step into your attacker, closing out access to your centerline. In the second instance, you will step away from an imaginary attacker with a block into a twist stance and pivot into a neutral bow with a strike. In the third instance, you will pivot into a twist stance with a push-down block and then step into your imaginary attacker with a counter. 

The purpose being shown here is that you have to intermittently expose your centerline when moving. You just need to expose your centerline when you are the furthest from your attacker. Twist and step. Or step back with a twist, then unwind. 

The blocks that are employed throughout the section following the finger strikes are the blocks shown in the isolation at the end of Long Form 1. The reason they are out of order leans on how the weapons are cocked. After the finger strikes, your hands are high, so you block down with the inward downward palm up. Following the low uppercut, your hand is down, so you may as well use the low block, the inward downward block (palm down). With the next series, you hand is high from the uppercut you can then do a push down. 

The Elbows 

The remainder of this form on the 1:30 to 7:30 line consists of you pivoting and executing elbow strikes from a possible tackle attempt. The primary reason is in an effort to give you some form of preview to the next form, Short Form 3, which is also known as the elbow form, and the fulcrum form.


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## Goldendragon7 (Aug 20, 2004)

sok_68 said:
			
		

> I was going over this last night in class & one of the students asked if there was a source that described attacks that went along with the movements being executed.
> -s


  Actually there are  *no* formal "descriptions of attacks" (since there are no attacks -- but there are self defense definitions) in any of the 1st 4 forms to EPAK. 

  The first 4 forms to the system (Short & Long 1 and Short & Long  2) are considered the Dictionaries to the system, Short 3 and beyond are  considered the Encyclopedias to the system, and the Sets are considered  the Appendices to the system.

  With that being said, anyone  "_*c a n*__*"*_ develop self defense applications but Mr. Parker didn't want any "specific" scenarios because he didn't want to  limit encapsulate the definition.

  :asian:


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## MisterMike (Aug 21, 2004)

What he said. They are more "Categories of Motion" than techniques. But that won't stop people from putting a video out or teaching otherwise.


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## Goldendragon7 (Aug 21, 2004)

MisterMike said:
			
		

> What he said. They are more "Categories of Motion" than techniques. But that won't stop people from putting a video out or teaching otherwise.


 Who is "He" that you refer to?

 :idunno:


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## pete (Aug 24, 2004)

reminds me of a lesson with my tai chi master, where he was teaching me a application within the form... one that we had worked in a private class about one month earlier.

he set up this particular scenario differently than i had learned previously, and this time involved multiple attackers.

so i said out loud, 'oh, there are 2 different applications within this form'

and he replied, 'for today'

pete.


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## MisterMike (Aug 24, 2004)

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> Who is "He" that you refer to?
> 
> :idunno:



I mean your post. Basically I agreed.


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## Dan G (Mar 15, 2005)

A swift look at some Aikido techniques, in particular gedanate (shodokan system) might trigger some interesting thoughts.

The sequence following twist stance in Long 2 bears certain similarities to interesting takedowns. Worth a look anyway IMHO...


Dan


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## Maltair (Mar 16, 2005)

My instructor would ask us to visualize what you think is happening there. For the palm down blocks, respones range from blocking a knee strike, or an uppercut, to getting away from a wrist lock. All good stuff.


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## kenpo3631 (Mar 18, 2005)

KenpoHands.com 

Very informative :asian:


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## Mr. Dan (Mar 20, 2005)

What I know about the parker forms is that forms 1 and 2 are designed for basics analysis, forms 3,4,5,and 6 are the live forms (there are specific attacks for these forms) no specific attacks for forms 1 and 2, they are to be used as a tool for analysis of the basics contained within them.


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## rmcrobertson (Mar 20, 2005)

I'm afraid that's not strictly the case. There certainly are, "specific," attacks for Short 1 & 2, if you choose to read the form that way--and, just as in the, "higher," forms, there is also a pretty big range of possible specific attacks to be read. 

Moreover, I also think that the tendency to describe the, "lower," forms (like the "simpler," techniques) as something that you get through to get on to the good stuff is not a good tendency. Short 1 & 2 are exactly as alive as we choose to make them.


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## Mr. Dan (Mar 20, 2005)

I never referred to short (or long) 1 and 2 as lower or simpler forms. I find these forms fascinating and have done them thousands of times, and spent hundreds of hours studying them as well as spent all of my extra time and money traveling to instructors who could teach me things about these forms. I didn't make up the terms or the forms, I am just trying to pass along a little info I have learned. I knew these forms for about twelve years before I was taught ( by a first generation Parker black belt) the reasons they were in the system. There may be a little more to them than YOU are giving them credit for. I'm sorry that you feel I downgraded the forms, I love these forms. Parker kenpo wouldn't be a system without them.


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 20, 2005)

Mr. Dan said:
			
		

> I never referred to short (or long) 1 and 2 as lower or simpler forms. I find these forms fascinating and have done them thousands of times, and spent hundreds of hours studying them as well as spent all of my extra time and money traveling to instructors who could teach me things about these forms. I didn't make up the terms or the forms, I am just trying to pass along a little info I have learned. I knew these forms for about twelve years before I was taught ( by a first generation Parker black belt) the reasons they were in the system. There may be a little more to them than YOU are giving them credit for. I'm sorry that you feel I downgraded the forms, I love these forms. Parker kenpo wouldn't be a system without them.


I had a blackbelt tell me once that short 1 is our first Kick set before Kick set.
Sean


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## Mr. Dan (Mar 20, 2005)

No need to be a wise guy. I spent alot of time analyzing these forms and was just trying to help. It was more than one instructor who told me forms 1 and 2 had no application.


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## rmcrobertson (Mar 20, 2005)

Sorry, I was going by what you wrote about the differences among the forms:

"...forms 1 and 2 are designed for basics analysis, forms 3,4,5,and 6 are the live forms (there are specific attacks for these forms) no specific attacks for forms 1 and 2, they are to be used as a tool for analysis..."

I'm not sure how else to interpret this than as saying that, a) forms 1 & 2 are not, 'live' forms, but only theoretical ones, b) they have no real fighting applications and are simpler, more-primitive than the, "live,' advanced forms, c) this is because the first two forms imply no real attacks, d) the advanced forms only have specific attacks.

Seems to me that the first move of Short 1 implies, a) defending against a right hooking punch, b) def. vs. a right push/right grab, c) def. vs. a rear bear hug, arms free, d) def. vs. a high right roundhouse kick, e) def. vs. a straight punch from the right flank, and so on, as much as Long 4's first move implies a defense against a series of possible attacks. And that's just off the top of my head...

But perhaps I misread, always possible. Could you explain--and leave out the, "first generation," bit, which I don't think is particularly germane?


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## KenpoDave (Mar 20, 2005)

Are you asking what attacks are being defended against in Long #2, or are you looking for offensive movements within the form?


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 31, 2005)

Mr. Dan said:
			
		

> It was more than one instructor who told me forms 1 and 2 had no application.


 You are correct.  (go back and read post *4* of this thread)


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## Bill Lear (Mar 31, 2005)

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> You are correct. (go back and read post *4* of this thread)


I wouldn't go so far as to say that the moves contained in these forms have no application. I think it would be more accurate to state that they don't have any *"specific"* applications. (Just a thought... I could be wrong.)

:idunno:


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## pete (Apr 1, 2005)

Bill Lear said:
			
		

> I wouldn't go so far as to say that the moves contained in these forms have no application. I think it would be more accurate to state that they don't have any *"specific"* applications. (Just a thought... I could be wrong.)
> 
> :idunno:


... or several specific applications, as do the higher numbered forms (and we all could be wrong, but that's life LOL)


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## Goldendragon7 (Apr 1, 2005)

Bill Lear said:
			
		

> I wouldn't go so far as to say that the moves contained in these forms have no application. I think it would be more accurate to state that they don't have any *"specific"* applications. (Just a thought... I could be wrong.)
> 
> :idunno:


 Well, you got me there!  :mp5:

 Yes, that is what I really ment to say, of course they have applications but just not 1 specific one.  (we have talked about this at length Billy......... geeze   lol) 

 :asian:


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## Bill Lear (Apr 1, 2005)

pete said:
			
		

> ... or several specific applications, as do the higher numbered forms (and we all could be wrong, but that's life LOL)


Isn't the phrase "several specific applications" kind of an oxymoron? That just don't make sense to me brutha.

:idunno: 

*SEVERAL*
Main Entry: *2several*
Function: _pronoun, plural in construction_
*:* an indefinite number more than two and fewer than many <_several_ of the guests>

*SPECIFIC* 
Main Entry: *1spe·cif·ic*
Pronunciation: spi-'si-fik
Function: _adjective_
Etymology: Late Latin _specificus, _from Latin _species_
*1 a* *:* constituting or falling into a specifiable category *b* *:* sharing or being those properties of something that allow it to be referred to a particular category
*2 a* *:* restricted to a particular individual, situation, relation, or effect <a disease _specific_ to horses> *b* *:* exerting a distinctive influence (as on a body part or a disease) <_specific_ antibodies>
*3* *:* free from ambiguity *: ACCURATE* <a _specific_ statement of faith>
*4* *:* of, relating to, or constituting a species and especially a biologic species
*5 a* *:* being any of various arbitrary physical constants and especially one relating a quantitative attribute to unit mass, volume, or area *b* *:* imposed at a fixed rate per unit (as of weight or count) <_specific_ import duties> -- compare AD VALOREM
*synonym* see SPECIAL, EXPLICIT
- *spe·cif·i·cal·ly* /-fi-k(&-)lE/ _adverb_


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## Bill Lear (Apr 1, 2005)

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> Well, you got me there! :mp5:
> 
> Yes, that is what I really ment to say, of course they have applications but just not 1 specific one. (we have talked about this at length Billy......... geeze lol)
> 
> :asian:


*:iws: 
* 
*Who love's ya baby?*

:supcool:


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## pete (Apr 1, 2005)

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> Well, you got me there! :mp5:
> 
> Yes, that is what I really ment to say, of course they have applications but just not 1 specific one.


  ditto!


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## Mr. Dan (Apr 7, 2005)

thanks, GOLDENDRAGON (salute)


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## Goldendragon7 (Apr 7, 2005)

Mr. Dan said:
			
		

> thanks, GOLDENDRAGON (salute)


 :asian:


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