# Kali vs. Escrima



## Stickfighter72

I was curious to know if anyone has ever studied  two complete different FMA systems?


My main question is I guess of course.  Is I am a long time student in Pekiti Tirsia Kali and have had several sessions in Serrada escrima.

I was curious if anyone has also made this transgression in training.  My main focus I find is on the difference in the foot work.

I tend to use more a Kali style foot work when doing Serrada,  my serrada teacher keeps telling me that a good escrimador will tear up a Kali player due to the Kali's longer range of footwork.  

Hence the angle's are a bit more wider when stepping in.  VS. the Serrada smaller triangle foot work.

I am an open minded martial artist and just love anything that revolves around MA's.  So I began studying Serrada and have found it to be just a tad more difficult to do certain techniqes rather,  because of my Kali training.  NOW dont get me wrong I love Kali and am comfortable with it.  But I am willing to get to the same level of comfortable ness with escrima its just going to take a little time.  I was just currious if anyone else has studied the two and had the same problems and or how did they overcome this obstacle.

Stickfighter


----------



## GouRonin

Tim Hartman has been studying several systems I think. You should e-mail him.


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman

I have had the opportunity to see a lot of martial arts in my life. Afriend of mine said it best "It's all nits and bolts.".  What this means if you look at machines, cars, martial arts you will see in there family grouping that all the parts are the same just put together in a different way. 

I have owned cars & trucks, imports & domestics. They all operate in the same manner. Each may be designed for a specific duty ,but they all work very simular to each other.

As far as Kali, Arnis & Escrima goes. The big difference is how they accomplish the same job. I know this is going to open a can of worms but in the big picture they are all alike.

Let the sparks fly!

As far as the foot work goes you may have a problem. If you are looking for what works best for you that is a decision that you will have to make. If you are worried about stye integraty you may have a problem duing both. When I due the upper bodly part of technques I don't have problems seperating different arts, but when it comes to foot work that's another story. It's like learning Tap & Ballet at the same time. They don't have the same flow.  

I hope this helped & good luck.


----------



## Stickfighter72

thanks renegade,  I appreciate the thumbs up on that.

I totally understand what your saying, and I cant give up eather system as I am drawn and dedicated to learning both.

I made a statement in my post that I wanted to reconsider, and I didnt want it to sound as if I was downing Kali at all, because I have used it many and several times and it has worked well for me.

"that a good Escrimador will tear up a Kali player"  

that wasnt quite the way he stated it, and I wanted to apologize and restate the fact, that he made it sound more like from his standings or his point of view, that the Serrada system worked better for him and the small triangular pattern of footwork against my kali when practicing showed a bit more sense when entering and it was easier to manipulate my technique rather.
Notice it was MY technique,  I dont want it to sound as if all Pekiti Footwork is that easy to manipulate,  Therefore there are probably the more aggressive and more well trained practicioners out there with far more years of experience than I that could make the foot work, more in thier favor.  

I have alot of desire for learning the all's in both systems and Love and enjoy them as I do all FMA.
When I found Serrada Escrima I had no idea the two were so simular in ways but yet so different.

So as you stated the two are like Automobiles the mechanics are the same, the motives are the same, heck even some of the functions are the same.
Bottom line is the two are different and simular in many ways.  
I was trying to get a response in my post with anyone that has had a simular experience and how did they overcome it.
I appreciate your points and expressions, and by all means we are all here to learn from one another as well.

thank you gentlemen,  "ladies" if thier are any on here. 

Im new to the post so I dont know everyone.

SF


----------



## GouRonin

The Renegade dresses like a lady.

Heh heh heh...


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman

I'll give you LADY you skinny little twirp!!!!!


----------



## GouRonin

Don't be jealous because I'm slim and trim and you're, well, not. 

Dutch loves you just the way you are.

Myself, I think you need to lose the high heels. 

Oh man, am I ever dead when we get together next.


----------



## IFAJKD

No sparks, just a point to ponder. Feedback would be good.
I have always looked at Escrima as the "stick art" of FMA of which there are many systems. The style, if you will, is Escrima and the systems are many, Villebraile, Lacoste, Cabalas Serrada, etc. I also tend to see "Kali" as the Bladed part of the art that emphasises Knife (dagger) and empty hands similar to trapping with destructions and intercepts etc. In this fashion I have differentiated between the two. Most aggree that there is no definite answer to where the term "Kali" came from. In part the Filipino culutre suffered at record keeping and much info had been destroyed. To compare Kali vs Escrima is kind of uneventful as they are two different entities


----------



## Black Grass

The impression of eskrima as a stick art is actually a misconception I think comes from the fact the two most famous styles associated with the term eskrima,  Balintawak and Doce Pares are more stick based and developed overtime as primarily stick arts (mostly due to fighting each other I suspect).

Estoque and Estokada are systems practiced with the garote ( flat stick) whose techniques are based on the espada ( spanish sabre). The Villabrille system also practiced with the garote.

Is kali more blade oriented ? I would defenitley agree that systems that want to be recogzied more as blade arts would use the term kali to describe themselves.

As an interesting side note. If you goto the Esrkima De Campo JDC-IO website. They have written an article denouncing the use of arnis to describe Cebuano arts. 

http://decampo.8m.com/custom4.html

Regards,

Vince


----------



## Rubber Ducky

> _Originally posted by IFAJKD _
> * Most aggree that there is no definite answer to where the term "Kali" came from. *



Draeger and Smith, in their 1960's vintage book "Asian Fighting Arts" ascribe the term Kali to the term Kalis - which apparently means a large bladed knife.  Both of those men are reasonably respected martial arts scholars, Donn Draeger especially, so I would tend to lend their explanation some credence.

I freely admit that I could be wrong, and not up to date on the current knowledge of the history of FMA systems.

Pierre


----------



## IFAJKD

Although the styles of Escrima have influence in Spannish Fencing systems, It does remain a stick art flat stick or not. I know of no Escrima system that does not use stick, stick and dagger, double stick, single stick, stick grappling etc. In fact in traditional spannish fencing schools you will see them train in stick, .
My understanding from what I have read and studied is that the term "kalis" is not accurately translated to Bladed knife. Kali as a term has several possible origins. Kalis as mentioned, Kali, the goddess of war and others I have forgotton,. Mark Wiley has written in depth about the term Kali even quoting from Draeger and Smith. 
In the Phillipines and those who have moved to the U.S. from the Philipines, specific systems have often settled on one area accepting it as THE explination of the origins of the term Kali. Fact is there is only speculation. Again a product of poor record keeping customs and varrying cultural groups among many islands. The one area accepted by most is that Kali is by nature bladed. Within this allows for the training of hand trapping utilizing bladed moves and techniques such as, for example "gunting" Knife=scissors motion cutting an area of the body often the target was the bicep. Empty Hands= it becomes a destruction still in the scissors motions but instead of the knife as a tool it is more often a punch. What is fantastic about the FMA is that they were doing what Bruce Lee did hundreds of years before him. They adapted, utilized much from many and remained combative against a variety of enemies. Never holding to a tradition over functionality. They developed styles and branched many many systems from there. Today still it is not uncommon to find new systems springing up. The unfortunate part is that they have many specific terms for a broad range of tactics. It becomes confusing. When looking at FMA, I think you have to break it down to systems within styles. Other Asian arts you could break it into Families, (Yang style Tai Chi) . 
I may be so full of it but this is how I see it. Food for thought or a wasted Sunday Morning, Gotta go


----------



## Black Grass

When I say stick art I mean with the intention of using stick to fight with as opposed to the stick being used to as a training tool. I guess again I'm talking about intention. Does  the stick =  stick or does it represent a sword (therefore a blade art).  I think all schools of sword play (Filipino or not) use sticks or wooden replicas. But it doesn't make them stick arts. 

All use the example of Balintiwak again , as primarily a stick art. They considered the  'stick' as a stick therefore a lot of there techniques require monitoring the opponents stick ( as opposed to the hand) with the live hand. In Modern Arnis they grab the stick. Inside snake disarm (for lack of a better description) or the Modern Arnis # 3 disarm ( I think)  is a stick based disarm. You can do it with a blade (or at least its very dangerous). Also the use of force to force blocks something your more inclined to do with a stick.

Estocada and and estoque.  Yes they train with a stick but the true intent is the use of a sword ( in this case a spanish sabre). Therefore a blade art. 

Kalis Ilustrimo or Olistrisimo Eskrima is a blade art:
-no stickgrappling, no locking or choking with the weapon
-no grabbing of the weapon
-no force to force blocks for defence, parry and evasion only
-the abaniko is done with the edge(blade) and in fact does not look like what most systems consider abanico.

When i come done to it it just how people define things.

Just as a side note gunting is not a universally accepted in the practice of empty hand FMA, although a lot of systems do use them. I have had masters tell me 'why hit them in the arm when you can just smash them in the face'. This is not an inditment of mag-gunting ( I like them) just sharing what some masters in the Philippines say.



later,
Vince

btw IFAJKD, your posts have made this board interesting again. it was getting dull for awhile


----------



## IFAJKD

Now this I like. 
Are you calling Kali Ilustrimo or Olistrisimo Escrima the same thing ?  Again, I do see Kali as the bladed art. Kali being a general term, Escrima a general term meaning skirmish (basically). I haven't seen an Escrima system that wasn't stick based (for training or fighting) . Still not quite sure I have yet. I am open. You have good info and I love to learn.

In mentioning "universal" in regards to gunting. I believe that I stated that Kali was more generally accepted as being bladed more so than Escrima by way of terms. Gunting is by no way a universal technique among Kali players. I agree. I like it,  and find it common to most people's understanding FMA or other. So I tend to use it as an example. Most people have at least heard the term. From there it serves well to explain how a bladed techniques is applied empty handed. By the way, You may have a gunting nerve destruction to the wrist or even the bicep but may easily be out of range for the head. Most FMA masters that I have trained with dispise all the head hunting until it is time. They tend to, for lack of a better description, work their way there. All the stick tournament stuff has bred head hunters and the concept of defanging the snake or attacking the hand is a lost art by its self. Personally, I have found that the best and most realistic disarms have been DFS types.  What ya think ?


----------



## Black Grass

Yes kali or kalis Illustrisimo is the same as Olistrisimo eskrima. It was originally called Olistrimo eskrima then later changed to kali/s Illustrisimo. Why was it changed? Just as a term of convinence when talking to Americans.


----------



## IFAJKD

Thanks for the clarification. So much to know  What was the original point ?


----------



## Black Grass

We did cover alot in these post.

The original point was the difference between kali, arnis, and eskrima. My opinion was that kali  = blade and arnis & eskrima = stick is a misconception. 

I forgot one other style that is blade based to illustrate my point. Yambao Arnis. Yambao was the first person to write a book on the filipino weapon arts back in the early 50's. Most of the book is dedicated to the use of  ' espada y daga'. It covers true sword and dagger techniques (as opposed to olisi at baraw or stick and dagger).  Consequently it is  also the first time the term kali is used in print. Also this book uses alot more tagalog terms for movements as opposed to spanish. 

The Yambao book is out of print and scarce.  It was published only in tagalog. Master Rey Galang of Bakbakan international has been planning to publish a translation of this book and I believe its still in the works.  

Regards,

Vince


----------



## arnisandyz

The name may have changed to appeal to the "Americans".  Most people openly teaching the art in the Philippines that I know refer to the FMA as Arnis.  Probably because the modernization of the central and northern regions leds itself more to education and development.  Kali is more of the earlier "pure" art and is often associated with the southern moro areas which did not have the influence of the Spanish Occupation (other than fighting them) integrated into it.

I think Americans are drawn to the name "Kali", and feel it is better, "the pure art" of the Philippines, but really, its all the same to me. I've met many arnis players that move like Kali practitioners and vicversa.  It depends on the individual on what he/she wants to learn and how they make it their own, and what they decide to call it.


----------



## Cthulhu

Welcome aboard, arnisandyz!

For the rest of the board members, arnisandyz is one of the two FCS guros who kick my *** every week.

Cthulhu


----------



## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Cthulhu _
> *For the rest of the board members, arnisandyz is one of the two FCS guros who kick my *** every week.*



I like him already! Welcome!


----------



## arnisandyz

Salamat mahal Cthuhu and Arnisador,

I look forward to learning and sharing on your board.


----------

