# 14th Degree BlackBelt



## phlaw (Sep 20, 2004)

Ok, I realize people can have multiple belts in different styles, but have you ever seen someone total his ranking to be a 14th Degree??

Check this out

http://www.marquartstkd.com/

I thought it was kinda funny.


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## Disco (Sep 20, 2004)

It's a shame that people stoop to a level of foolishness to impress the uneducated. Apparently they don't realize or don't care what it makes them look like.


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## ppko (Sep 20, 2004)

Disco said:
			
		

> It's a shame that people stoop to a level of foolishness to impress the uneducated. Apparently they don't realize or don't care what it makes them look like.


Hey that offends me . I am a 50th degree Blackbelt in crapmando.  But in all seriousness these are the type of people that will also tell you that they have registered there deadly hands.  These are the people that really get my steam rolling.  I at one time had some people come in and tell me there master was a 25th degree Blackbelt  .  Well these people did not stick around because I was just a BB and I guess it was beneath them , oh well.


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## Jeff Boler (Sep 20, 2004)

I believe the Bujinkan actually has up to a 15th dan.  I've never quite been able to understand it, but then again.....no one has ever been able to really explain it.


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## terryl965 (Sep 20, 2004)

Yea well I got that beat I was at a tournament where the instructor sent up his son that was in the 6 and 7 year old division and he was a 4th dan at that age and his father had 12 stripes on his belt and claimed to be a 12th degree certified instructor. People are fools for every one intelligent person in america there are 200 victom of false promises.... GOD BLESS THE RIGHT TO BE WHAT YOU CAN MAKE PEOPLE BELIEVE!!!!!! i just became a 25th dan in couch potatoe ( me set on my butt ) technique!!!! GOD BLESS AMERICA


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## pesilat (Sep 20, 2004)

Jeff Boler said:
			
		

> I believe the Bujinkan actually has up to a 15th dan.  I've never quite been able to understand it, but then again.....no one has ever been able to really explain it.



Well, according to Marquart's logic, I'm a 10th Degree myself. Woo hoo. Break out the party hats 

Yeah, that's just kinda silly. However, that aside, different systems have different ranking structures. My primary system, Sikal, for instance, only has 5 "black belt" ranks.

As Jeff mentioned, though, Bujinkan does go up to 15th Dan. I heard a rumor (which may be completely false but it's the only explanation I've ever heard for the 15th) that there was a time when Hatsumi was awarding rank to people who didn't really deserve it (for whatever reason - I've seen that happen in a lot of systems so it wouldn't really surprise me if it happened there, too). Then one day he looked around and saw a bunch of 7th and 8th Dans who just flat out didn't meet the necessary requirements. Rather than stripping them of rank (which would have been one solution), he added 5 Dan ranks. There are good folks below 10th Dan - but it's pretty much a guarantee that if they're beyond 10th Dan, they're _really_ good.

As I say, that's a rumor I've heard - take it for what it's worth and if anyone has a more definitive explanation, feel free to correct me.

Mike


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## bignick (Sep 20, 2004)

living in the same area as phlaw...i knew of this guy as well...

its just silly and no ones buying it


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## Sin (Sep 20, 2004)

oooo hes a triple master i scurred


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## Xequat (Sep 20, 2004)

Man, what a maroon, as Bugs Bunny would say.  This guy has one sixth degree, and two fourth degrees.  Add 'em up and you get a 14th degree black belt?  I like that math.  I just started at another school on the side of my Shaolin school and they teach five different styles.  I guess I'm a fifth degree yellow belt.


Btw...how high does ninjitsu go up to, becuase I've also heard of a guy claiming to be twenty-somethingth black belt in ninjitsu, but I thought the guy telling me about him was just mistaken, so I just ignored him.  I believe I've also heard of Bujutsu or something like that having a 12th dan, but I'm not sure.


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## ppko (Sep 20, 2004)

Xequat said:
			
		

> Man, what a maroon, as Bugs Bunny would say. This guy has one sixth degree, and two fourth degrees. Add 'em up and you get a 14th degree black belt? I like that math. I just started at another school on the side of my Shaolin school and they teach five different styles. I guess I'm a fifth degree yellow belt.
> 
> 
> Btw...how high does ninjitsu go up to, becuase I've also heard of a guy claiming to be twenty-somethingth black belt in ninjitsu, but I thought the guy telling me about him was just mistaken, so I just ignored him. I believe I've also heard of Bujutsu or something like that having a 12th dan, but I'm not sure.


I like your new quote brings back memories :lol:


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## Chicago Green Dragon (Sep 20, 2004)

I am really curious how many of the 12th and 14th degree people have been studing martial arts for more then say hmmmmmmm one year ? ok lets be nice a year and a half.

I have seen many people of high degree rankings but then i've seen many who by their own choice could have been a lot higher but decided to stay at 5th or 6th too.

I think you can put any kind of degree or title you like on yourself but the proof is in the pudding and time will show the real color or rank of your belt.

Chicago Green Dragon

 :asian:


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## ppko (Sep 20, 2004)

Chicago Green Dragon said:
			
		

> I think you can put any kind of degree or title you like on yourself but the proof is in the pudding and time will show the real color or rank of your belt.
> 
> 
> 
> > I have to agree with this statement 110%.


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## bignick (Sep 20, 2004)

almost all the taekwondo in my area comes from the same man(Grandmaster Moo Yung Yun), but due to politics and people growing/changing...at certain times people split off and formed their own organizations/schools...as far as i know Master Marquart's taekwondo rank is legitimate...i can't speak for his kumdo or hapkido, though...

the problem is when people need just that little extra ego stroke...that's when stuff like this happens


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## Gin-Gin (Sep 20, 2004)

Chicago Green Dragon said:
			
		

> I am really curious how many of the 12th and 14th degree people have been studing martial arts for more then say hmmmmmmm one year ? ok lets be nice a year and a half.
> 
> I have seen many people of high degree rankings but then i've seen many who by their own choice could have been a lot higher but decided to stay at 5th or 6th too.
> 
> ...


Very well said, Chicago Green Dragon.  Your statement reminds me of one of GoldenDragon7's signature lines..."Time will either promote you or expose you!"
[Oss, Mr. C!]

Respectfully,
Gin-Gin :asian:


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## SMP (Sep 20, 2004)

*It is sad that one little thing can diminish someone.  Any respect he had earned is looked at with great suspicion.*


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## Rich Parsons (Sep 20, 2004)

I know that the Ninja schools have 15 ranks of black. 

Go check out the Ninja forum for more information.

So the question I have about the 14th degree and 12th degrees mentioned here, are they of a Ninja school?

Also, I think one of the Japanese arts goes to 12 as well, not saying that anyone is officially ranked there though.


Now, I agree that there is a problem with with people and egos going for more than others have. Just like the old AMP that goes up to Eleven (11) because all the rest go up to twelve. Or like in "Something about Mary" when the killer hitch-hiker says he will make a video for 7 minute abs to beat the 8 minute abs workout. Well the guys gets all upset when it is presented that someone could go to 6 minute ab workouts

Just some comments and thoughts

:asian:


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## bignick (Sep 20, 2004)

marquart just claims he's a 14th degree black belt of martial arts.....

he's a 6th dan in taekwondo, and a 4th in kumdo and hapkido...adds them up...and voila...instant ego gratification


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## terryl965 (Sep 20, 2004)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> I know that the Ninja schools have 15 ranks of black.
> 
> Go check out the Ninja forum for more information.
> 
> ...


well the 12th was at USTU in Atlanta this year which is Tae Kwon Do Olympics style which means only goes to 10th at the highes level...GOD BLESS AMERICA


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## Shurikan (Sep 20, 2004)

Prof. William K.S. Chow 15th degree JuGo-Dan ( and those are not added up ranks. As legit as they go for ranks above 10th.


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## Feisty Mouse (Sep 20, 2004)

> I am a 50th degree Blackbelt in crapmando.


 :roflmao:


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## bignick (Sep 20, 2004)

me and my buddy invented our art one day when we were sitting around joking...it's called Ludo of which we are 57th degree black belts...training mainly consists of living in our basement and running to the store, getting us coffee and the like...for your black belt you need to take a goldfish and drive it into a oak plank from 10 feet away...

we are still waiting for students, so if you are interested...send me a message...


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## MichiganTKD (Sep 20, 2004)

There is a gentleman named Klaus Shumacher who claims to be 11th Dan in Hapkido or some related style. Even claims that Dan ranking tradition goes back hundreds of years, and that "in the old days" 13th Dan was possible. I pity his students.


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## pesilat (Sep 20, 2004)

Xequat said:
			
		

> Man, what a maroon, as Bugs Bunny would say.  This guy has one sixth degree, and two fourth degrees.  Add 'em up and you get a 14th degree black belt?  I like that math.  I just started at another school on the side of my Shaolin school and they teach five different styles.  I guess I'm a fifth degree yellow belt.
> 
> 
> Btw...how high does ninjitsu go up to, becuase I've also heard of a guy claiming to be twenty-somethingth black belt in ninjitsu, but I thought the guy telling me about him was just mistaken, so I just ignored him.  I believe I've also heard of Bujutsu or something like that having a 12th dan, but I'm not sure.



Well, as I understand it, there is more than one system of Ninjutsu - and a whole flippin' heck of a lot of politics among them wrt which is legitimate and whatever. I've only had a very limited exposure to Bujinkan and a couple offshoots of Bujinkan. I don't know about other systems but, as I understand it, Bujinkan only goes up to 15th Dan.

Mike


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## Shogun (Sep 21, 2004)

Judo, I believe, goes up to Junidan (12thdan). Bujinkan, as mentioned, goes up to Jugodan (15thdan). However, Bujinkan guys typically call 10th+ instructors Shihan, which in this case, simply means "damn good".


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## bignick (Sep 21, 2004)

yes...but the point that was made is that this guy is a taekwondo instructor...which only goes to 10th dan...and he's calling himself a 14th dan


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## MichiganTKD (Sep 21, 2004)

Tae Kwon Do does NOT go to 10th Dan. Tae Kwon Do goes to 9th Dan. 10th Dan MIGHT be used honorarily to designate someone who has shown outstanding contribution to the Art, much like honorary Ph.D. But as far as actual Dan rank that you test for and receive, it only goes to 9th Dan. I can't think of any Grandmaster who received 10th Dan, and that includes Gen. Choi, Hee Il Cho, Hae Man Park, Jhoon Rhee, or anyone else.


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## bignick (Sep 21, 2004)

that's what i meant...in wtf taekwondo 10th dan can only be conferred...not actually earned...


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## Shogun (Sep 21, 2004)

> yes...but the point that was made is that this guy is a taekwondo instructor...which only goes to 10th dan...and he's calling himself a 14th dan


I know. just stating. hey, maybe it was a "new" type of TKD that hasnt been unleashed yet. ha.


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## phlaw (Sep 22, 2004)

The 10th Dan's in TKD are the ones that founded their own Kwan's.


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## kroh (Sep 22, 2004)

It has been my experience that those with these kinds of rankings are foolish and that ANYONE who refers to themselves as master usually aren't.  I mean could you imagine walking into a doctors office ( say the head of Neurosurgery and the best brain guy in your state ) and because he is the head of a bunch of organizations having to call him master?

Silly Americans.  The asian peoples who formulated these martial arts often have great fun at our expense because of such ignorance.  One of my first instructors has no Dan gade (Menkyo instead) does that mean she is any less of a martial artist than some one who calls himself master.  

Adam Hsu, a well known and respected Kung fu stylist said it best in his book... " _Where did all these Masters and Great Grand Masters come from.  The Chinese didn't bring them here.  I have been teaching martial arts for close to twenty years and my students refer to me as Sifu.  How is it a westerner, claiming have been teaching for five years is a Great Grand Master in our system of Kung fu and I am not? All of my students call me teacher (sifu)..._"

I blame all of this on George Lucas.  If he hadn't started calling Yoda master... None of this would be going on.

Walt


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## pakua (Sep 22, 2004)

Add them up is a bit like having an MS and and MBA and saying that together they're a PhD.


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## terryl965 (Sep 22, 2004)

All I know in forty one years in the MA I've never seen as much BS Ma'ers as in the past year. If you can't hack the real world of Ma'ers go start your own style and proclaim yourself GrandMaster of B.S. This is why no respect for the Art we practice, Between politics and self proclaimed master's we have no chance against Western civilazation B. S....... God Bless America


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## kroh (Sep 22, 2004)

pakua said:
			
		

> Add them up is a bit like having an MS and and MBA and saying that together they're a PhD.



How screwed would a medical professional be if they did something like that.  These people have no shame.  But then again... It is a marketing tool designed to catch the layman and drag them into an office.  

How bent would these people be if some one ran an article in say, Time or Newsweek, exposing fraud in the martial arts and Ten things to look for that screams McDojo ( I beleive Black Belt ran an article... But then again... most of those subscribers are in the know anyway).  

What gets my water boiling is not that these self deluded individuals are claiming these outrageous titles, but that they make no striving to be good at what they do.  There are many people who have started there own systems with nothing more than a basic understanding of the initial art that they started in.  BUT... There are those who have done such a thing and left the parent organization for whatever reason and then went on to inovate something.  

Let's look at you know who... He started off in Wing Chun but supposedly didn't as far in the system as he could have before moving on/out.  Not satisfied with what he had ( a base knowledge ) he kept inovating untill he came upon a theory that worked for him.  His students, not being satisfied with what was left to them... Continued to inovate.  Thus we have Jeet Kun Do.  

Then of course, this is the exception and not the rule.  I am sure every legitamate martial artist / fighter on these boards can't look ten feet without spotting Mcdojo-jutsu some where close to their location.  I live in Rhode Island and the amount of Kung Fu per capita is HUGE!  I see Mcdojo-ism all over.  

On the other side of the coin...we _should_ be tolerant and patient of these people.  

#1. They demonstrate to people who realize what is going on, what *not* to do as a martial artist.  
#2. They might come to realize the error of what they are doing and go legit.

I am acquainted with several high level martial artists who when they introduce themselves use a handshake and their *first name* .  Their first name is never master this with an X dan in that.

Walt :idunno:


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## kroh (Sep 22, 2004)

terryl965 said:
			
		

> God Bless America



All we can really do is wait patiently, continue to educate people about what martial arts are and what they are not, and hope these individuals grow up and come to their senses.  

Regards
Walt


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## pakua (Sep 22, 2004)

I love _McDojo_! How about _Dans-R-Us_?


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## kroh (Sep 22, 2004)

Dans-R-Us.... Catchy....you might have something there...you should copyright that.

Regards
Walt


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## ppko (Sep 22, 2004)

pakua said:
			
		

> I love _McDojo_! How about _Dans-R-Us_?


Hey that is where I recieved my 50th dan in Crapmando (oh no the secret is out now what do I do)


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## pakua (Sep 22, 2004)

ppko said:
			
		

> Hey that is where I recieved my 50th dan in Crapmando (oh no the secret is out now what do I do)



Did you get fries with it?

But seriously    seems what you need to do is start a new style (although I love the name _Crapmando_) then you can be any level you like.


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## ppko (Sep 22, 2004)

pakua said:
			
		

> Did you get fries with it?
> 
> But seriously  seems what you need to do is start a new style (although I love the name _Crapmando_) then you can be any level you like.


I think that in my style there will be 100 levels of blackbelt so I am only half there to mastering Crapmando


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## Drac (Sep 22, 2004)

Hey, I'm a 50th Dan too..My discipline is CuffandStuff..


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## ppko (Sep 22, 2004)

Drac said:
			
		

> Hey, I'm a 50th Dan too..My discipline is CuffandStuff..


Well I can't have someone as high ranking as me so I am now a 75th dan Blackbelt in Crapmando


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## Sin (Sep 22, 2004)

My Sensei ha been training all his life since he was a freshman in high school.....and now hes 40 something..........and he has never recived his black belt test....due to moving around so much cause of finantial difficulties.....but he has been training himself with other martial artists...and absorbing all the information he can about martial arts...from Akido to Boxing to even tae Kwon Do.....he has done it all....he wears a black belt of Shuhari-te...witch is his oen system now...the proof is in the pudding as someone in a previous post said so quaintly....he is a great martial artist....training is what he is all about....day in and day out...its in everything he does...I consider him a black belt...and if you met him you would say the same too. :asian:


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## phlaw (Sep 23, 2004)

I have a PHD  (Public High school Diploma)  I should start putting that on my Resume


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## pakua (Sep 23, 2004)

In South Africa we refer to the last year of high-school and the qualification as Matric(ulation) so we joke that people put MA on their resumes- Matric (Again).


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## kroh (Sep 23, 2004)

I would personally like to sign up for crapmando classes... :asian:


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## Xequat (Sep 23, 2004)

ppko said:
			
		

> Well I can't have someone as high ranking as me so I am now a 75th dan Blackbelt in Crapmando


I'd like to sign up, too.  Hey, congrats on your 75th dan promotion, ppko!


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## KenpoNoChikara (Sep 23, 2004)

Disco said:
			
		

> It's a shame that people stoop to a level of foolishness to impress the uneducated. Apparently they don't realize or don't care what it makes them look like.


Well put. :asian: 

Triple Master.....that's a new one......


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## Xequat (Sep 23, 2004)

Heh, I hope someone in that guy's class is a MartialTalk member so they can see what people think about doctoring up a resume' like that.


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## TallAdam85 (Sep 24, 2004)

yea i have met a few shady martial arts master in michigan i try to stay away from them but also alot of good one in michigan to


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## MichiganTKD (Sep 24, 2004)

Why thank you!:uhyeah:


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## GAB (Sep 25, 2004)

Hi all,

I can remember the same type of conversation going on in the 1960's, only then they were claiming to be 4,5,6,7, then 8. My instructor was the highest ranking Black belt when he stepped onto California soil, Sifu John Leoning, Kajukenbo.

Next thing you know, others were going for more rank, self promoted that is.

The more people you have in the arts the higher the rank will get.

Or should I say the ranker it gets.

Different strokes for different folks.

Regards, Gary


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## MichiganTKD (Sep 25, 2004)

Reminds me of the scene from "The Great Dictator" where Hitler and Mussolini are trying to outdo each other by raising their barber chairs.
If one person is a 5th Dan, someone else must claim 7th Dan. They figure "if I'm 7th Dan, more students will be impressed with me!" So someone else must claim 8th Dan to top that. Before you know it, people are going past 10 and into the teens with phony ranks and fictitious systems. All in the name of trying to make themselves look good and drum up business and students. A few magazine covers don't hurt either.
The Buddha was right. The ego can be a nasty thing.


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## jakmak52 (Oct 14, 2004)

I thought 10th was the highest:idunno:


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## Rich Parsons (Oct 14, 2004)

jakmak52 said:
			
		

> I thought 10th was the highest:idunno:




You thought 10th was the highest for all arts?

You thought it was highest for your art?

You thought 10th was the highest for the person in questions' art?

Curious


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## ppko (Oct 15, 2004)

Xequat said:
			
		

> I'd like to sign up, too. Hey, congrats on your 75th dan promotion, ppko!


For recognizing my promotion I now promote you to 20th degree blackbelt in crapmando go sit on your toilet and wait for your certificate:flushed:


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## Xequat (Oct 15, 2004)

Thank you, Master ppko.  I will go practice my kata, as you say.:asian:


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## OC Kid (Oct 15, 2004)

Since you got a 50th degree I'll meet that and reaise ya 10 so i have a 60th degree in Kid-ryu, I cant really talk about our 5 finger dim mak but If ya send me 200 bucks I can sell ya a video.......


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## jakmak52 (Oct 15, 2004)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> You thought 10th was the highest for all arts?
> 
> You thought it was highest for your art?
> 
> ...


Yes to all. But I was actually referring to the person in question. Do I pass the test?


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## Nightwish (Oct 16, 2004)

phlaw said:
			
		

> Ok, I realize people can have multiple belts in different styles, but have you ever seen someone total his ranking to be a 14th Degree??
> 
> Check this out
> 
> ...


who cares?  a black belt means nothing to someone who wants to kill you anyway.

and yes this guy is a fool.


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## Shogun (Oct 19, 2004)

I was just on BJJ.org and realized how many instructors have students who are (legitimately) ranked higher. Lloyd Irvin's instructor for example is a 4th degree black belt. HIS teacher is a 2nd degree black belt. But I bet he'd still school him.


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## ReturningThunder (Oct 21, 2004)

what a joke!


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