# AKKI: Shaping the Future of Kenpo?



## KenpoEMT (Jul 25, 2005)

Is the AKKI leading us?
multiple selections allowed


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## lonekimono10 (Jul 25, 2005)

Theban_Legion said:
			
		

> Is the AKKI leading us?
> multiple selections allowed


  leading ??? to where??:idunno:


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## KenpoEMT (Jul 25, 2005)

lonekimono10 said:
			
		

> leading ??? to where??:idunno:


Back to the Future, Marty! (wish they had a smiley delorian[or is it Delorean?])

Not sure really. Speediness, maybe?  After all the hub-bub on KenpoTalk between the AKKI guys and the LTKKA guys I thought I'd put out a poll to see who really cares one way or the other. 

I see we already have one vote for the average AKKI member being more skilled.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jul 25, 2005)

Shaping *A* future of kenpo, just as is every other kenpo teacher out there.  I do not believe, even for a second, that we are seeing the next Dune Messiah rising to power on the great kenpo horizon.

There are a lot of guys out there doing some pretty cool schnizzle, on par with -- or better than -- the AKKI innovations. A fair comparison would involve bringing them together for evaluation by a panel of impartial judges, and in kenpo, that just ain't gonna happen. Too many people, too heavily invested in their own confidence. (acu-flap for buying their own B.S.)

:bs: (the true flag of self-appointed kenpo messiahs?)

I'm sure Mr. Mills is on to some neat stuff. I'm also sure the other guys are too.

Regards,

Dave


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## Brother John (Jul 26, 2005)

Honestly: I mean you NO offense....
but this Poll is weird, I'm not certain what you are getting at.
Here's the basic logic of it: 
The AKKI is an organization, it doesn't 'lead' anyone. There are Leaders WITHIN the AKKI (GM Paul Mills, Board of Directors, Regional Reps, instructors)...but their influence is only over those who are within the AKKI, meaning theAKKI leadership only leads AKKI students. 

Maybe if you helped us understand what the point of this poll is, maybe then we could form some kind of discussion.
But in the meantime....it's just kinda weird. :idunno: 

Your Brother
John


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## KenpoEMT (Jul 26, 2005)

Brother John said:
			
		

> Honestly: I mean you NO offense....
> but this Poll is weird, I'm not certain what you are getting at.
> Here's the basic logic of it:
> The AKKI is an organization, it doesn't 'lead' anyone. There are Leaders WITHIN the AKKI (GM Paul Mills, Board of Directors, Regional Reps, instructors)...but their influence is only over those who are within the AKKI, meaning theAKKI leadership only leads AKKI students.
> ...


No offense taken! It is kind of weird. It stemmed from watching the never-ending, seemingly circular arguments over on Kenpo Talk. I guess that's been going on alot longer than I've known about, though.
I made a bet with myself that the majority of votes would go to the "I don't care; I'm doing what I love" catagory. The other selections were just filling space. I honestly didn't expect to see anyone vote for any of the other options. Oh well.
It's more a matter of a 'do what you love and meet your responsibilities; the rest is just filling space' kind of thing. Why all the hostility?

I'm willing to wager that the AKKI as a whole will be just like any other group that strides on amidst constant antagonism. Nothing tests and cements loyalty better than difficulty. 

An organization without members is not an organization at all; it's just words on a sheet of paper/web page. From the least to the greatest, an association is it's membership.

Thank you for your courtesy, Brother John. I welcome all opinions.


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## lonekimono10 (Jul 26, 2005)

Theban_Legion said:
			
		

> Back to the Future, Marty! (wish they had a smiley delorian[or is it Delorean?])
> 
> Not sure really. Speediness, maybe? After all the hub-bub on KenpoTalk between the AKKI guys and the LTKKA guys I thought I'd put out a poll to see who really cares one way or the other.
> 
> I see we already have one vote for the average AKKI member being more skilled.


 i just want to let you know that my name is George not Marty
  yea i know you are talking about the movie, but still i was not being rude to you and i see no reason  for the name insert,
  and as for your post, i think that Brother john said it best.
  have a great "kenpo" day


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## KenpoEMT (Jul 26, 2005)

lonekimono10 said:
			
		

> i just want to let you know that my name is George not Marty
> yea i know you are talking about the movie, but still i was not being rude to you and i see no reason for the name insert,


It was a random attempt at humor.  I was not mocking you or your post.


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## lonekimono10 (Jul 26, 2005)

Theban_Legion said:
			
		

> It was a random attempt at humor.  I was not mocking you or your post.


  oh ,ok i love humor, u know it would have been funny if you said

  "Hello Mcfly" i would have laughed
  but thats ok , tell your teacher(if he is your teacher, i don't know) that George said Hello.


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## KenpoEMT (Jul 26, 2005)

Okay, here is one of the issues:

whatever inovations the leaders of the AKKI come up with will not stay proprietary information. Members will come and go; whatever the membership learns that is of value they will take with them. They WILL show others what they have learned.
They will take the D1/D2 applications, timing drills, tailored techniques, and whatever else back to where they came from, or on to a new art. As much as anyone would like to keep these inovations solely within the membership of the AKKI, it will not happen.

So, is the AKKI leading US to a new form of Kenpo? Whether you study Kara-Ho Kenpo, EPAK, or MMA wouldn't you accept new concepts that make your skills more effective? Maybe something that carves the way for you to strike just a little faster? A little harder?

I am aware of Mr. Gorham's departure from the AKKI. I do not know the man, and I am not willing to speak for him; however, a highly skilled instructor such as he would surely continue with the beneficial concepts he has learned. This impacts whoever comes in contact with his instruction, no?

The first option in this poll was about the AKKI leading us. This is what I meant. The information will not stay solely within the AKKI, and if it is truly innovative then it will (probably already is) spread like wild fire. Members will go and do their own thing. The knowledge goes with them.

So, if anyone has an appreciation for what this organization is accomplishing, tell me, is the AKKI impacting all of Kenpo?


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## KenpoEMT (Jul 26, 2005)

lonekimono10 said:
			
		

> oh ,ok i love humor, u know it would have been funny if you said
> 
> "Hello Mcfly" i would have laughed
> but thats ok , tell your teacher(if he is your teacher, i don't know) that George said Hello.


I KNEW i screwed that joke up! dang it...missed out on a chuckle.


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## KenpoEMT (Jul 26, 2005)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> I do not believe, even for a second, that we are seeing the next Dune Messiah rising to power on the great kenpo horizon.


Dune Messiah, what a great reference!



> There are a lot of guys out there doing some pretty cool schnizzle, on par with -- or better than -- the AKKI innovations. *A fair comparison would involve bringing them together for evaluation by a panel of impartial judges*, and in kenpo, that just ain't gonna happen. Too many people, too heavily invested in their own confidence.
> I'm sure Mr. Mills is on to some neat stuff. I'm also sure the other guys are too.


Awesome idea! Yeah, it would never happen, but I would love to see everyone come together in the spirit of discovery. 

Dang good post Dave!


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## Brian Jones (Jul 26, 2005)

OK I voted, but I have to admit I am really wary of this type of poll.  It just seems set up for another flame war.  My prediction is pretty soon our favorite AKKI bashers will get on, we will argue about the exact same isues we alwys do, soembody wil be derogitory and this thread will be locked by the moderators.
    Personally I love the AKKI.  But like any Martial art it will only give you what you put into it.  Its not magic. Its all about applying the concepts principles, and above everything else putting in the sweat.  This is true for all flavors of Kenpo.  It can all be effective, depending how much of yourself you give to it. I don't think anyone in the AKKI would invalidate anyone elses kenpo.  By and large we just tend to be happy with the resluts we get.  If you get the same results with what you do great.  That's how it should be.
  For me it has given me a betterunderstadning of Kenpo, I move better, more explosive and hit harder and faster.  I can do more with less effort. Notice I say for me.  
  So any takers on how soon this thread goes to pot?

Brian Jones


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## KenpoEMT (Jul 26, 2005)

Brian Jones said:
			
		

> It just seems set up for another flame war. My prediction is pretty soon our favorite AKKI bashers will get on, we will argue about the exact same isues we alwys do, soembody wil be derogitory and this thread will be locked by the moderators.


It wasn't a set up for another flame war, but now that you mention it, it could easily turn into one.



> Personally I love the AKKI. But like any Martial art *it will only give you what you put into it*. Its not magic. Its all about applying the concepts principles, and above everything else putting in the sweat. _This is true for all flavors of Kenpo._ It can all be effective, *depending how much of yourself you give to it*.


Right on! That's just beautiful, man.



> I don't think anyone in the AKKI would invalidate anyone elses kenpo. By and large we just tend to be happy with the resluts we get. If you get the same results with what you do great. That's how it should be.
> For me it has given me a betterunderstadning of Kenpo, I move better, more explosive and hit harder and faster. I can do more with less effort. Notice I say *for me.*
> So any takers on how soon this thread goes to pot?


Honestly, I'm surprised that it hasn't "gone to pot" already. Maybe we will get a good, honest discussion like Brother John wanted.

Where the heck is the leadership of the AKKI taking Kenpo to? If we were able to get Master Mills and Doc Chapel together curriculum wise, I wonder where THAT result would lead...


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## Brian Jones (Jul 26, 2005)

DOc and Mr. Mills don't have to put anything together. See that's teh beauty of Kenpo.  It is so multifacted there is room for SL4 and what the AKKI is doing.  And doing one, as I said before, doesn't negate the other.  As to where the AKKI is taking Kenpo, I amnot sure I'm in the least qualified to make that prediction. All I know is that people in the AKKI don't move like anyone slese.  And I have found very few (Ok none personally) who have come to teh AKKI and been disapointed.  Most report great imporovemtns in how they move, more explosive power and speed.  One thing I hear and its not mentioned very often is becuase we emphsize moving in the d1, D2 patterns there is less wear and tear on the body (always a good thing)  
  Yes some have turned up thier noses ..."this is nothing new".  And that is their right.  Doesn't bother me in the least.  To me the AKKI is an invesment.  you only get out of it what you put into it.   But if you are willing to put the time in, I beleive you will happy with what you get in return.

Brian Jones


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## still learning (Jul 26, 2005)

Hello, Today many people practice more than one art! Lots of schools has teachers whose backgrounds will influence the changes. Not only in AKKI but all others too.

  To say AKKI is shaping the future of Kenpo?  Maybe it's future?   for it self!

 As our Professor and his Chief Instructors(Universal Kempo-Karate) who meets regular, and train together are always bringing new things in our learning. Every year at our annual Seminar there are new things to bring back to our own schools. The process is on going. Also new ways of doing our regular stuffs. Old days- after taking the person down we had to learn to hit 9 times, than it change to do only what is necessary to end it. Now we are doing 5 strikes after ever take down. Less KI's more "grunting! " 

  If your school is not changing to modern world, How come?.....Aloha


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## KenpoEMT (Jul 26, 2005)

Brian Jones said:
			
		

> DOc and Mr. Mills don't have to put anything together. See that's teh beauty of Kenpo. *It is so multifacted there is room for SL4 and what the AKKI is doing. And doing one, as I said before, doesn't negate the other.*


I totally agree with you Brian. I was just musing on the possiblities... I think that last sentance says everything. There is room for everyone. I did an easy calculation of the possible combinations of 16 basic movements(16factoral); the result was 20.9 Trillion possible useful, useless, and unuseful techniques. No one human could explore all of these possiblities in his/her life-time. There truly is room for everyone.



> One thing I hear and its not mentioned very often is becuase we emphsize moving in the d1, D2 patterns there is less *wear and tear on the body* (always a good thing)


This i was not aware of. I'd love to hear more about the how Kenpo can cause wear and tear on the body. 



> Yes some have turned up thier noses ..."this is nothing new". And that is their right. Doesn't bother me in the least. To me the AKKI is an invesment. you only get out of it what you put into it. But if you are willing to put the time in, I beleive you will happy with what you get in return.


Excellent point!

I enjoyed your post, Sir! Love to hear more.


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## KenpoEMT (Jul 26, 2005)

still learning said:
			
		

> As our Professor and his Chief Instructors(Universal Kempo-Karate) who meets regular, and train together are *always bringing new things in our learning*. Every year at our annual Seminar there are new things to bring back to our own schools. The process is on going. Also new ways of doing our regular stuffs.
> 
> If your school is not changing to modern world, How come?.....Aloha


Great post, man! I honestly don't think that the average Kenpo guy/gal hears enough about new perspectives. Maybe from their own school or association, but there isn't a single body/group/org that compiles new information from multiple sources and allows it's dissemination to any group or individual that wants to learn. I'd love to see something like that come to pass.

Thanks for chimming in!


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Jul 27, 2005)

Theban_Legion said:
			
		

> Great post, man! I honestly don't think that the average Kenpo guy/gal hears enough about new perspectives. Maybe from their own school or association, but there isn't a single body/group/org that compiles new information from multiple sources and allows it's dissemination to any group or individual that wants to learn. I'd love to see something like that come to pass.
> 
> Thanks for chimming in!


You're almost right, you should've been to the last LTKKA camp last month, I think you would've been shocked.

DarK LorD


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## Brother John (Jul 27, 2005)

*Clyde's right!*
The LTKKA has large 'get togethers' where lots and lots of people come and share ideas and instruction and such.
The AKKI also has large 'get togethers' every six months where everyone from our top-brass on down share ideas, we all get instruction and there's great comraderie (s/?). (We also have a Christmas get-together as well)
Last I knew the AKKS had good get togethers.
I think that Mr. Picks group (sorry....forget the letters) has'm, as does "Kenpo 2000" under Mr. Hancock..

I think the Kenpoworld has Good get togethers....
really, it's a tradition started by Mr. Parker.....a Polynesian who just plain knew how to hold a GOOD BBQ !!!!!

Your Brother
John


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## KenpoEMT (Jul 27, 2005)

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> You're almost right, you should've been to the last LTKKA camp last month, I think you would've been shocked.


I would love to be wrong on this issue. Could one really walk into an LTKKA camp without being a member of the LTKKA and be part of the experience?

I don't know if you're willing to, but would you share some of the highlights of this camp?


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## KenpoEMT (Jul 27, 2005)

Brother John said:
			
		

> *Clyde's right!*
> The LTKKA has large 'get togethers' where lots and lots of people come and share ideas and instruction and such.
> The AKKI also has large 'get togethers' every six months where everyone from our top-brass on down share ideas, we all get instruction and there's great comraderie (s/?). (We also have a Christmas get-together as well)
> Last I knew the AKKS had good get togethers.
> ...


That is really kewl. I was aware of the fact that most associations do have gatherings.  Truthfully, it sounds as if I would have to purchase a membership from each association in order to attend any of their events; I could easily be wrong.
I was really just bemoaning the lack of cooperative collection and dissemenation of information between all of the existing bodies. I really would like to attend LTKKA and AKKI camps alike. I love 'old' Kenpo, and what little I know of 'new' Kenpo is interesting.





> it's a tradition started by Mr. Parker.....*a Polynesian who just plain knew how to hold a GOOD BBQ !!!!*!


Now there's a Grandmaster I wish that I would have known!!! 
This must be the true 'secret' of Kenpo...amazing speed and power with an everexpanding waistline!


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Jul 27, 2005)

AKKI Kenpo leading the way?  I spent some time in the AKKI and I've already been blasted by some AKKI members for my opinion.  But here goes anyway in my honest opinion AKKI Kenpo is simply EPAK + Equation Formula.  There are also some filipino martial arts/Knife fighting elements (from guys like Hock Hockheim) and grappling elements (Gracie Jiu jitsu) being added as well.  But the 'AKKI System' still has EPAK as a vast majority portion of it's base and is therefore not really a 'new system' yet.  When the sytem is completed (only through 2nd Brown at this time) then we'll see how 'new' it is.  Just a new way of looking at the 'old system' to me as it stands right now.  This is evidenced by the signature 'timing patterns' that are simply master key movements taken from existing Parker System techniques.  For example the "3 Beat" is found in Raking Mace and Twin Kimono already and the "7 Beat" is a graft of Raking Mace, Sword of Destruction and any technique from the (alternating maces, clipping the storm, darting mace, parting wings, etc. Family)  The "new-ness", "revolutionary-ness", or "Innovative-ness" of the AKKI system will always be up for debate as long as people associate Paul Mills as a student of Ed Parker, Sr.  But atleast, the AKKI members are actively examining their material and attempting to scrutinize and create new things.  Although the current state of the outcome is questionable, the effort to progress and not stagnate must still be commended.


My Two Cents, AKKI Kenpo new method of teaching Ed Parker's Kenpo.


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## KenpoEMT (Jul 27, 2005)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> ...in my honest opinion AKKI Kenpo is *simply EPAK + Equation Formula.* There are also some filipino martial arts/Knife fighting elements (from guys like Hock Hockheim) and grappling elements (Gracie Jiu jitsu) being added as well.


I don't think that is such a bad thing, really. The Filipino arts can kick some butt. I don't know to many EPAK guys/gals that could honestly take on a skilled grappler. Yes, everyone talks about how the 'principles and concepts' for ground fighting are contained within the EPAK curriculum, yet I have not seen any Kenpo practitioners that I would consider competent in grappling. [Let's see if I survive the flaming from all the master Kenpo grapplers on this forum...ugh:whip: ]



> When the sytem is completed (only through 2nd Brown at this time) then we'll see how 'new' it is. Just a new way of looking at the 'old system' to me as it stands right now.


Honestly, I didn't know that the material only goes up to 2nd Brown. Well, everything new goes through a growing process. How would one test for 1st Degree Black or any of the higher ranks? Maybe it is a matter of transferring old rank in and then waiting for new material to be released. Do they test for 1st-3rd Black using the EPAK techniques? 
Well, Brother John has posted here a couple of times; maybe, if he is willing, he could clarify this one issue.  I imagine it isn't really a big deal; it's just a little confusing.



> This is evidenced by the signature 'timing patterns' that are simply master key movements taken from existing Parker System techniques.


Yeah, I started a thread on 'timing drills' over in the KenpoTalk forum/Parker-Mills Lineage side. Apparently I wasn't supposed to do that... I received a hostile PM (maybe I just read it wrong, but the PM really freaked me out). I really like the concept of timing drills, and where I have applied them, they have been beneficial.
So, kudos to the Mill's family for that little piece of brilliance.



> The "new-ness", "revolutionary-ness", or "Innovative-ness" of the AKKI system will always be up for debate as long as people associate Paul Mills as a student of Ed Parker, Sr.


I think that anything new goes through a period of time where others have a knee-jerk reaction against it just because it is new.  You could be right, though. Maybe others respond negatively simply because they are of the opinion that these innovations could have had a home in EPAK; I don't know how true that is, just speculating. I really don't want anything to do with all the hostility.



> But atleast, the AKKI members are *actively examining their material and attempting to scrutinize and create new things*. Although the current state of the outcome is questionable, the effort to *progress and not stagnate must still be commended.*


I agree with the sentences above in bold.  I can't  really comment on the one that is underlined.

Thanks for chiming in, James! I always enjoy new perspectives.


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Jul 27, 2005)

Theban_Legion said:
			
		

> I would love to be wrong on this issue. Could one really walk into an LTKKA camp without being a member of the LTKKA and be part of the experience?
> 
> I don't know if you're willing to, but would you share some of the highlights of this camp?


Yes, you could just walk in and participate, there were many NON-MEMBERS of the LTKKA there.

The akki has closed sessions to members only and is open by INVITATION only, they only have a few open seminars where anyone could attend.   The Vegas camp is a closed camp from what I understand.  

DarK LorD


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## KenpoEMT (Jul 27, 2005)

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> Yes, you could just walk in and participate, there were many NON-MEMBERS of the LTKKA there.


No kidding? That is kewl. I was just looking at the 2006 Larry Tatum World Championship page, and I think I saw more than one Seminar Instructor who was not LTKKA (correct me if I'm wrong). That speaks to me of being very open-minded.


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## KenpoEMT (Jul 27, 2005)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> I spent some time in the AKKI and I've already been blasted by some AKKI members for my opinion.


We've had some comments from Brian (which I appreciate) on why he has joined the AKKI. I was wondering if you (James) would provide another perspective. If you don't mind my asking, why did you leave the AKKI? Was it only for the opinions stated below?


> But here goes anyway in my honest opinion AKKI Kenpo is simply EPAK + Equation Formula.





> But the 'AKKI System' still has EPAK as a vast majority portion of it's base and is therefore not really a 'new system' yet.





> Just a new way of looking at the 'old system' to me as it stands right now.


I'd love to hear more from anyone who wishes to lend a greater understanding of the issue from either/both of the perspectives. 

Why did you join? 
and/or
Why did you leave?


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## KenpoEMT (Jul 27, 2005)

Maybe this is why there isn't a 'Primer' or introduction to AKKI Kenpo. Perhaps this is the reason that there have not been any explanations as to where the AKKI is headed to (aside from the fact that no one is obligated to explain anything on this forum):


			
				AlanJ said:
			
		

> Another difference is the use of universal blocks or open ended triangles that are ambulatory. Not just stationary or like in Long 1 where the blocks are done interchangeably. It's more than just a double factor. It lays the foundational motion for our knife material, club material and how to execute them. Just with Form 1 in it's sequence, I can teach a student who to embryonically move a knife with our motion and even more explosively defend against it with the ambulatory open ended triangles. It just does not teach universal blocs but different height, width and depth zones as well on diagonal angles as well as horizontal and vertical. It also teaches the student how to block using directional harmony, opposing forces, and marriage of gravity as well as reverse marriage of gravity- hitting/blocking/striking, while your dropping into your stance or settling.
> 
> The other thing it teaches a student is the different levels in height and bracing of the same block. The form includes an extended outward block done at different height/dimensional levels in order to teach the student the progression of a block as well as giving them the tools to cover themselves from a roundhouse punch, straight, uppercut, hook, overhead and combinations.
> 
> ...


 




			
				AlanJ said:
			
		

> It's not something we particularly advertise out of the gate.* We just want the motion taught so when they want to learn it and are ready for it later down the road, it's not foreign motion to them.
> *Ambulatory just means moving and what I meant by interchanging is in Long 1 the blocks and strikes are moving forward while the other is moving back in some fashion. An ambulatory Open ended triangle means that it's moving rather than stationary.
> I'm quite sure you know many of these things I listed. Again, it's about how early we begin teaching it. *We have a philosophical difference of when things should be taught*. No problem. Also too, *exclusive AKKI motion is taught or frameworked. *The young student may not realize it or see it but it's all there. *This I can't explain but there is a noticable difference between how you and I will execute the same motion. Rank has nothing to do with it. It's in the system and it must be experienced*. I can't write about it. I can say explosive and I refer to a firecracker while you say explosive and you refer to a stick of dynamite. Both explode but on very different levels. Both need to be experienced to better understand.


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## KenpoEMT (Jul 28, 2005)

Ok, I'll go first.

I get 5 things from this persons post about AKKI Kenpo:


Different way of moving
Philosophical difference
Exclusive Motion
Can't explain
Must be Experienced
1. If AKKI Kenpo executes the same material as the IKKA/LTKKA but in a vastly different manner, are the two schools of thought actually performing the same material? If it is the same but vastly different, then it is not the same. Okay, makes sense to me.
2. Philosophical Difference: I understand that in this post the poster was addressing a philosophical difference with another poster; however, doesn't this then beg the question of whether or not there is a philosophical difference between the 'old' way and the 'new' way? I honestly don't know enough about the development of the AKKI and it's material to comment one way or another on philosophical divergence. Perhaps someone who has experienced both, yet remains with the 'new' way, would be willing to comment.
3. I honestly don't think that there is such a thing as exclusive motion. It may be exclusive for a time, but it will not remain that way. Motion belongs to a body, not to an association. I understand that certain things within the organization (that were developed there) are considered as rightfully belonging to the association. A problem arises when one person learns the information and then leaves; the information goes too.
4. If the new motion concepts truly cannot be explained then they are unique.
5. Luckily, these concepts can be experienced. I recall that Master Parker said, "To see is to understand, but to feel is to know." -or something along that line- If it is new and can only be known through experience, then it is progressive.

So, in regard to shaping the future, the AKKI seems to have developed an entirely new structure of Kenpo. 

Comments?


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## KenpoEMT (Jul 28, 2005)

Theban_Legion said:
			
		

> ...new structure of Kenpo.


Perhaps I should clarify that in my mind the Law of the Fist equates to Motion. Therefore, when I say "...a new structure of Kenpo" I am not referring to techniques and forms, but I am referring to a new structure of Motion. A new way of studying, learning, and applying Motion.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Jul 29, 2005)

Having actively studied over 20 forms of combat for the last 19 years and holding Black Belts in 5 of them I feel qualified to state.....There is NO NEW MOTION LOL. The motions I execute, be it in Kung-Fu, Tae Kwon Do, Ju Jitsu, Parker Kenpo, Mills Kenpo, Wrestling, Jeet Kune Do, Judo, etc. are all the same when analyzed. Example. In kenpo I learned a 'hooking grab (crane beak)', a 'cross check', a hook kick, and an inward crescent kick. These "pieces of motion" are all used in Kenpo to set up strikes and grapples on varying levels. Now if I go to the ground and have an opponent in my guard and execute a (1) 'hooking grab' with my right hand to their neck (2) a 'cross check' to their right arm with my left hand (3) a hook kick to their right leg with my left leg and (4) an inward crescent kick to their left hip with my right leg (crescent motion hitting with my calf or thigh) I would have what the brazilians call a FLOWER SWEEP in their Jiu-Jitsu. Same motion different ways of doing it and different reasons. In short all the new systems can keep popping up but the "motions" will remain the same just new philosophies on when and how to do them and what parts of the body to do them on.

My two cents.


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## KenpoEMT (Jul 29, 2005)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> Having actively studied over 20 forms of combat for the last 19 years and holding Black Belts in 5 of them I feel qualified to state.....


That's a heck of alot of experience!


> There is NO NEW MOTION LOL.


I'm afraid that I have not communicated effectively. 
I agree with you  whole-heartedly! How could there be 'new' motion introduced to the human race after billions of years of evolution (or a few thousand years after creation, depending upon whom you may ask)?
What I meant to refer to was a new methodology of studying and learning. While the motions may not change they may always be viewed from perspectives that have not, until this point, been considered.
You have more experience with the AKKI's methodology than I do, and you have stated that it is effectively 'old' EPAK done in a (maybe not so) 'new' way. I am not so much concerned with the techniques and forms as I am with what seems to be a new perspective of the concepts of motion itself. I could very well be wrong about the 'newness' of this perspective. In fact, I am not very clear as to the completeness of the view that the perspective takes. 
Were you introduced to a new way of looking at motion during your time with the AKKI?



> The motions I execute, be it in Kung-Fu, Tae Kwon Do, Ju Jitsu, *Parker Kenpo, Mills Kenpo*, Wrestling, Jeet Kune Do, Judo, etc. are all the same when analyzed. Example. In kenpo I learned a 'hooking grab (crane beak)', a 'cross check', a hook kick, and an inward crescent kick. These "pieces of motion" are all used in Kenpo to set up strikes and grapples on varying levels. Now if I go to the ground and have an opponent in my guard and execute a (1) 'hooking grab' with my right hand to their neck (2) a 'cross check' to their right arm with my left hand (3) a hook kick to their right leg with my left leg and (4) an inward crescent kick to their left hip with my right leg (crescent motion hitting with my calf or thigh) I would have what the brazilians call a FLOWER SWEEP in their Jiu-Jitsu. *Same motion different ways of doing it and different reasons.* In short all the new systems can keep popping up but the "motions" will remain the same just new philosophies on when and how to do them and what parts of the body to do them on.


I agree.

Great post, by the way!


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## KenpoEMT (Jul 29, 2005)

Theban_Legion said:
			
		

> Yeah, I started a thread on 'timing drills' over in the KenpoTalk forum/Parker-Mills Lineage side. Apparently I wasn't supposed to do that... I received a hostile PM (maybe I just read it wrong, but the PM really freaked me out). I really like the concept of timing drills, and where I have applied them, they have been beneficial.
> So, kudos to the Mill's family for that little piece of brilliance.


 
I made a public statement here about a PM that I received; I have been able to confirm some information about the individual who sent the PM.

I read the message as having been hostile. I have found that my initial reaction to the PM was wrong.

Because the statement that I made was public, it is only right that the apology be public as well.

I was wrong; I apologize.

I still feel that the internet is a dangerous place, and I am not comfortable at all transmitting too much private information over it. Two aquaintances of mine have had very, very negative events occur in their lives involving the internet. I like to think that I have learned lessons from their experiences.


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## Brother John (Jul 30, 2005)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> Having actively studied over 20 forms of combat for the last 19 years and holding Black Belts in 5 of them.


Hey James, how's it going?

I've got a three quick questions, just things I was curious about... 
The arts you mention and the time in the arts seems _pretty swift_, so it got me to thinking these interrelated questions:
1. Who was your AKKI instructor?
2. How long had you been IN the AKKI?
3. How many of the Vegas camps have you made it too?

Thanks bro, just wanting to better understanding of where you are coming from.

Your Brother
John


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## Brother John (Jul 30, 2005)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> There are also some filipino martial arts/Knife fighting elements (from guys like Hock Hockheim).



I was also curious why you think that our knife material comes from Hockheim, whom is in no way associated with us.
I'd never come across this opinion before; it's got me curious.
thanks


Your Brother
John


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## KenpoEMT (Jul 30, 2005)

Glad to see you post again, Brother John. I realize that I have gotten off to a clumsy start with this poll (not clarifying my purpose, and unintentionally insulting Mr. Elmer). I want to assure you that the poll was not created in hostility. If nothing beneficial can be gained from this poll then I would rather see it covered in dust in the archives somewhere. I welcome your opinions.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Jul 30, 2005)

1. AKKI Instructor was Bruce Smith.

2. Was in the AKKI for one year in 2001, tried to "come back" this year but was told I had to drop all dealings with other non-AKKI kenpoists so I declined (I'm not interested in training with just one group or any KENPOLITICS, I train too many systems for that nonsense)

3. Didn't come to any Vegas Camps.

4. Yeah 20 systems, 5 Black Belts and 19 years seems swift doesn't it? That's what happens when you study multiple systems simultaneously instead of only dealing with one exclusively (see answer number 2)

5. A friend of mine that was actually the owner of the AKKI club we were jointly starting in Catonsville, MD (2001) confers that Mr. Mills works with Mr. Hockheim on knife and stick material and integrating Filipino martial arts concepts into american Kenpo (which I think is a great idea).

6. Why is it that when I (or anyone else for that matter) posts an opinion of Mills Kenpo that isn't "Mills Kenpo is the greatest" does some AKKI member go, "James when were you in the AKKI?" Don't start debating who did and didn't train, debate the points mentioned if you feel a debate is necessary. Just don't follow up with the whole bashing "you never trained with us" crap please. I don't feel like having a Kenponet repeat, where I have to post school certificates and all that non-sense to shut people up, have them 'investigate' and have AKKI members e-mailing me and calling my cell phone again.

7. Exactly how are those questions inter-related? (1) Length of training--Who was your AKKI instructor? (2) Length of training--When were you IN AKKI? (3) Length of Training--Did you come to any vegas camps? Doesn't seem like they are related at all unless the AKKI questions only relate to each other, seems like an opening to discredit-flame-n-bash again just like on Kenponet 2 months back. But I don't expect that from you John as you've always been very respectful from what I've read, I'm just waiting for the "clean up man" to come in and bash. But i'm not going to waste my time like on Kenponet.

Respectfully,
James

P.S. John, you have (had) my e-mail address we can chat anytime, I'm new to this forum and don't always catch the posts that respond to mine. How is your son (if you remember the pics we exchanged)? Forgive my "sharpness" above, but I'm in no mood for the usual flame wars that follow posts like these.


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## Brother John (Jul 31, 2005)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> 1. AKKI Instructor was Bruce Smith.
> 
> 2. Was in the AKKI for one year in 2001, tried to "come back" this year but was told I had to drop all dealings with other non-AKKI kenpoists so I declined (I'm not interested in training with just one group or any KENPOLITICS, I train too many systems for that nonsense)
> 
> ...



Hey James..

I'll reply to each in turn:
1: Mr. Smith, from what I know of him, is a good person. I believe it was my first instructor in the AKKI, Mr. Rogert Taylor, who played some role in Mr. Smith entering the association. I don't know the whole story behind that, but I recall my instructor saying something to that effect.

2: The fact is....that's pretty much the standard _expectation_ in the AKKI from what I know. It's not so much 'other associations' as it is 'other arts'. Though most Kenpo associations/schools practice/teach a version of Kenpo that is very closely _related_ to what we do in the AKKI, there is a marked difference and that difference matters. The issue isn't politics though.  (But I can understand why it would seem that it was) I've talked to Mr. Mills on the phone about this and he made it quite clear to me: his expectation is that when people come into the association that they *focus* their efforts and attention on aquiring and assimilating the lessons that AKKI Kenpo has to give. (neither Mr. Mills, nor any of his students, nor...from my experience...anyone in the whole association call the art "Mills Kenpo", he doesn't want us to learn 'him', he wants us to learn Kenpo Karate.) Mr. Mills feels, and the association members tend to agree, that the motion is pretty specific and particular to our Kenpo and that when you are trying to ingrain them they get convoluted and confused when you try to mix them with the modes and methods of motion others systems. Therefore keeping the student from really exhibiting that particular flavor of motion that makes our stuff work, and work well. Also: It's a general expectation in order to ward off dabblers. I'm NOT trying to say you are a dabbler James, but you know the type.... the association/art/dojo butterfly; the jack of all trades master of none. Mr. Mills related this to me with the concept of "rifling".... of focusing in on *one* path of achievement so that you gain both bredth and depth in one thing...maximizing your efforts and thereby making the best use of your time and the time of those trying to help you gain that bredth and depth of understanding and achievement.

3. Yeah, I've not made it to *NEARLY* enough of the camps myself, _not NEARLY_!!!!!! ((Money & Time: Two things I wish I had more of.))

The Vegas camps are where the newest material is taught. It's where you get a better understanding of what Mr. Mills, the board of directors, regional reps....etc, the seniors of the system expect of our motion, skill, knowledge, understanding....etc. Believe me, I'm missing out  by not making every one of them, I'm missing a great deal. You've missed out too, even more so. (no offense, but it's what I think) IF you never made it to a Vegas Camp (which isn't always so easy for those of us East of the Continental divide....and You are MUCH further East than I) then your concept of what the AKKI is and does is pretty incomplete, only drawing from a small exposure and partial pool of experiences from w/in the art/association. The camps are where your fire for the art is really pumped up too. Have you ever seen Mr. Mills move in person? If not, you're really missing a treat. Also: Have you ever seen Mr. Jacob, Mr. Connolly, Mr. Wheaton, Mr. Thomson, Mr. Herman, Mr. .....OK.....you get the point, the seniors in the art.....have you seen them move in person? Again: It's very hard to get a feel or understanding for what the AKKI is moving toward and what it is if you've not had such experiences. I'm NOT trying to discredit you or your opinion, but things must be put into perspective I think. 

4. Yeah, that's probably kept you pretty busy assimilating all of those different things. *I've got nothing against anyone who wants to cross train*... _it's got it's merrits_, but I find that there's already so much on my plate just with trying to work on one art and gain some depth in it.
 You must have had a *TON* of freetime over the last two decades!
Must be nice. 

5. Two of my insturctors I've had over the last seven years (almost 7 years actually) in the AKKI have been first generation students of Mr. Mills. Both of these instructors were/are the Regional Reps for their areas, both were/are certified to teach the highest level of knife curriculum that was/is out there: They disagree with your friends hypothesis of Mr. Mills working with or gaining from (or even knowing) Mr. Hockheim. I've spoken to Mr. Mills about his development of the knife curriculum.... what he said also differs greatly with your friends hypothesis. I'm not about to suggest in any manner that Mr. Mills was being dishonest with me.....he's got no reason to be. In learning/studying the knife curriculum myself...the motions are SO VERY in sync with the underlying ways that our Kenpo curriculum in the AKKI moves that it really has a deep coherency w/in the context of AKKI Kenpo. So even IF Mr. Mills gained knife curriculum from Mr. Hockheim, then apparently Mr. Hockheim first studied the way we move Deeply and for some time first in order to 'help' Mr. Mills create the knife/club curriculum that he did. ((which I know he didn't))
One of my students extensive experience in Escrima/Kali, he says that there are several similarities in the way our club curriculum 'moves' to the PMA's, but that ours...again....adhere's to the way that our emptyhand work goes. 
If I may ask, what level of the knife curriculum is your ex-AKKI instructor certified to teach??? (Obviously you were Not certified in the Level 1 knife/club work... just because those certification tests are done at the Vegas Camps under the watchful eye of Mr. Mills and the board of directors)


> 6. Why is it that when I (or anyone else for that matter) posts an opinion of Mills Kenpo that isn't "Mills Kenpo is the greatest" does some AKKI member go, "James when were you in the AKKI?" Don't start debating who did and didn't train, debate the points mentioned if you feel a debate is necessary. Just don't follow up with the whole bashing "you never trained with us" crap please. I don't feel like having a Kenponet repeat, where I have to post school certificates and all that non-sense to shut people up, have them 'investigate' and have AKKI members e-mailing me and calling my cell phone again.


James, you (in this thread and others elsewhere) are making some pretty sweeping generalizations on what AKKI Kenpo is and isn't, I don't think it's out of question at all to inquire into your basis of experience for that comparison. In fact, I think it's most respsonsible  to do so in order to put everything into perspective and to have a better understanding of where you are coming from. Without this knowledge it's a VERY incomplete picture.

For instance: I believe (could be wrong, I'm no historian) that in 2001 the AKKI curriculum was revised up through Purple Belt only and that past Purple the student had to learn/practice the IKKA version of the techs/forms/sets until they too could be revised at later times. Well, then you missed out on ALL of the new innovations and lessons of the 20 Blue Belt techniques, the 20 Green Belt techniques, the 20 1st Brown Belt Techniques and the 20 2nd Brown techniques that are coming out now. You'd have missed out on (I think) centerline set, trapping set, maybe even trap & roll drill...etc. Not only would you have missed these techs/forms/sets/drills from Blue-2nd Brown ((more than 1/2 of the AKKI curriculum)) but you'd have missed the camps in which the inner workings of and insights on these things were passed along. 

I'm NOT saying that you aren't entitled to your opinion regarding the AKKI, you most certainly are and I don't begrudge you that one bit. None. But the people who read what you are saying the AKKI is and is all about really have very little to go on and must therefore assume that your opinion is close to home; when really....there's gaps and a limited exposure on your part from which to draw. *I hope that doesn't make you feel insulted.* It's not intended that way. I've got a lot of respect for you James; obviously with that many Black Belts in that many years you are a dedicated/devoted martial artist!!!! But in making an annalysis/summation of what you believe the AKKI is and is not, how we move and how we don't, background is *VERY VERY* important and must be considered. I'd never say "_You never trained with us_", but I will say that your exposure to what the AKKI is and is all about wasn't/isn't that deep and didn't exist for very long at all. Seems just a fact to me. You needn't display the certificate of competency that your instructor drafted for you to prove anything, I believe you...that you trained for a year with an AKKI instructor on the East Coast; I don't feel that's in any way in question. Nor do I think you should worry about shutting up anyone nor anyone trying to shut you up. I just wanted us all to have a clearer understanding for where you are coming from.


> 7. Exactly how are those questions inter-related? (1) Length of training--Who was your AKKI instructor? (2) Length of training--When were you IN AKKI? (3) Length of Training--Did you come to any vegas camps? Doesn't seem like they are related at all unless the AKKI questions only relate to each other, seems like an opening to discredit-flame-n-bash again just like on Kenponet 2 months back. But I don't expect that from you John as you've always been very respectful from what I've read, I'm just waiting for the "clean up man" to come in and bash. But i'm not going to waste my time like on Kenponet.


Like I've just gone over, those questions are directly related to a background in understanding your opinion and your depth of knowledge insight into the AKKI. Here and elsewhere you've given kind of an "AKKI Kenpo is nothing but....." this that and the other. That's ok. But knowing your depth and length of experience w/in that system that you're evaluating is absolutely *crucial* to drawing any conclusions. I'd ask you the same things if you were evaluating Aikido, Ninjutsu or Wha-Lum Gung-fu. 
I've got NO interest in bashing!
I've got NO interest in Flames!
GOD KNOWS there's been far more than enough of both here, on KenpNet on KenpoTalk.....etc. etc. etc. It does NO ONE any good whatsoever. I hold absolutely NO ill will toward you at all. Please know at least that about me. 

No forgiveness needed, you didn't offend me bro! _Seriously_. I just hope that by making the points I have I've not offended you.  Yes, I think I still do have your E-mail....as you do mine. Please feel free to contact me whenever you like. I encourage you in your efforts in the martial arts.... no matter the style nor association. I'd think that the bredth of your knowledge could give insights into many things...and I look forward to continued contact/interaction with you as friends.

oh....David's doing GREAT! Just recently (maybe 5 weeks ago) started him up in Gymnastics.......He's LOVING it!!! They created this little "student Manual" that both explains and shows pictures of the different moves/exercises/drills that they do and will test him over. I take him down to my Kenpo school and we use the mats... I have him 'teach' me what he just learned the last week.... makes him really think about it harder. When he goes to his classes and studys/trains in the gymnastics...he pays even more attention so that he can not only learn to do what the are doing....but also so he can 'teach' his old man. 
HA!!! Pretty fun. I love rollin round on the mat!

Your Brother
John
Please feel free to E-Mail me with *any* thoughts/concerns.


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Jul 31, 2005)

Brother John said:
			
		

> Hey James, how's it going?
> 
> I've got a three quick questions, just things I was curious about...
> The arts you mention and the time in the arts seems _pretty swift_, so it got me to thinking these interrelated questions:
> ...


Seems ironic that you're asking, at least in nature, of some of the questions asked of you before.     Would you mind listing your;

Experience in the akki and prior martial arts, ie. years studied, rank aquired, etc..

How much time do you have with an akki certified instructor on a monthly basis?

How are you getting the new material being as you haven't been to that many Vegas camps?


DarK LorD


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Jul 31, 2005)

As usual you are very respectful in your posts which is why I asked you to forgive my "sharpness" as it wasn't really for you but for your "compatriots" that have given me and my students much undue grief in the last couple months for me stating what is my HONEST OPINION.

Glad to hear your son is great, Gymnastics huh?  Believe it or not I tried that too but it just wasn't combat oriented enough to keep me interested.  Keep that ball rolling with him gymnastics has many health benefits!

"But the people who read what you are saying the AKKI is and is all about really have very little to go on and must therefore assume that your opinion is close to home; when really....there's blaring gaps" -- Brother John

The people who read will always draw their on conclusions and I understand that you have a vested interest in making sure those conclusions as accurate or as close to the AKKI's definition of accurate as possible (don't misread my tone I'm simply stating it's a matter of your devotion, and opinion and  MARKETING to blunt.  The AKKI's kenpo has to be percieved as vastly different and 'improved' or there is no draw for people making an educated choice--that's basic marketing strategy).  But they should also have enough sense to read the part where I state "In my opinion"

I've also had a little more exposure to AKKI Kenpo since 2001 than I've let on.  I maintain my "friends" that are open to cross train with me as long as I don't spread their "secrets" with anyone else and I respect that and don't.  Of course I'm aware that that's out of line with AKKI policy but I still throw that into the category of politics despite your explanation, I'm sorry my friend.  I read the part of your post where you mentioned leaving other kenpo associations out so as not to convolute the AKKI lessons and I must say that's nonsense (not your opinion or that that's Mr. Mills belief).  What I mean by nonsense is that I have more experience crosstraining than most (not all) martial artists I personally know.  It has never, ever convoluted any of my movement skills or my knowledge base.  I managed to earn my first Dan level (I say level because in Kung-Fu there isn't a 'Dan') in Tae Kwon Do, Kung Fu and Ju-Jitsu at nearly the same time in 1998 right before I started EPAK.  These systems are VASTLY different yet I was able to keep the knowledge seperate where it needed to be and integrated where it helped out.  So I've seen many of the 'new' sets, some of the 'new' techniques and a lot of the drills and I'll be blunt from my experience.  My experience is based on the level of knowledge of my friends/crosstraining partners and is as always MY HONEST OPINION.

(1) A lot of the drills are nearly identical to drills from other systems I've studied.  The timing drills I've been exposed to do exist in EPAK techniques already the way I learned them.  Several have debated this point and I simply state "you must didn't learn the EPAK techniques in the manner I did."  I can provide explanations on demand as necessary.
(2) A lot of the knife and stick work is FMA plain and simple, yes it fits in with Kenpo's hand work well.  It usually does, ask any of 'Huk" Planas' guys about that. FMA and Kenpo integrate almost seemlessly.  So for someone experienced with escrima/kali to state that it works right in with the empty hand stuff is quite plausible.  From my experience with FMA it always does so that does not detract from the statement that it is FMA.  It's not so much DEVELOPED as it is INTEGRATED.
(3) With my knowledge of the EQUATION FORMULA and EPAK I'll paraphrase Mr. Planas 'I defy anybody to show me a new technique, all they are going to show me is a new ending somebody made up and I'll show them 5 endings they've never seen'  'Flashing Swords' - Start delayed sword, delete kick, suffix middle sequence of Bow-of-compulsion extension with adjusted angles.  'Swords of Fury' - Start sword of destruction, delete kick and chop, suffix last tree hand strikes from Five Swords w/ the extension, delete the ending kick of extension.  Those are two examples and I'm not going any further due to respect for not spreading the AKKI knowledge I have with Non-AKKI members accessing this board.  I don't like the 'politics' of that, but I took an oath and am a man of my word.
(4) The 'offensive techniques' are a "new way of TEACHING" what the freestyles should have taught if people actually taught them everywhere. There is also alot of Kung Fu/Wing Chun/Jeet Kune Do trapping integrated for the entries and counter-blows.  Nothing wrong with that but it is what it is as they say.  This stuff isn't just coming out of thin air as is often suggested.  It isn't as much being DEVELOPED as it is being INTEGRATED from other systems.  Nothing wrong with that but give credit where it's due.
(5) On the "Hockheim comment" I have only my friends' word and as such will be logged as 'rumor' and rightfully so.  But see above statements on FMA and let the readers be the judges of their own opinions.
(6) Please tell me (this was not mentioned previous) where the grappling knowledge was DEVELOPED from.  I will blatantly have to explain where the Ju-Jitsu/Wrestling is in there and that is it in fact INTEGRATED not DEVELOPED.
(7) In short from my martial arts experience, without needing to ask anyone else but just from MY OWN training experiences in the 20+ systems I haven't seen anything "new" from the AKKI material.  Everytime someone shows me something "new" I can reference them to books, videos, and arts that precede the date of the "new development."  I stand firmly that the innovation is more in the 'integration' of what is useful from other arts than from the 'development' of new material.  This is what I have seen and continue to see as people show me "new things" as the years go by and I continue to go into the archives and show them how old their new stuff really is.  I think that is a great direction to take Kenpo but I give credit where it's due.  When I teach Kenpo and I add something that came from Ju-Jitsu or Kung-Fu, etc. I label it as such.  I don't say, we developed this...I flat out state where it came from.  I see that alot of the deveopments are just integrations.  Maybe someone IS actually developing these things that just coincidentally happen to be identical to things from other systems without knowing it.  But given common logistics, the short span of a human lifetime, the vast availability of knowledge and the 'likeness' of human bodies I don't think that is the most plausible conclusion.  And as always that is my HONEST OPINION and no matter how well thought out it just may be wrong.  We will see eventually, perhaps when someone finally shows me something TRULY NEW.  Hopefully there is someone reading this thread that has around the same level of crosstraining I do and can chime in with more knowledge and thoughts.

"Absorb what is useful, discard what is not, and add that which is your own" -- Bruce Lee


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## Brother John (Jul 31, 2005)

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> Seems ironic that you're asking, at least in nature, of some of the questions asked of you before.     Would you mind listing your;
> 
> Experience in the akki and prior martial arts, ie. years studied, rank aquired, etc..
> How much time do you have with an akki certified instructor on a monthly basis?
> ...


Sorry Clyde, didn't know I'd been asked these things and left them un-answered.((You saw my belt when you met me in person Clyde))

I've progressed slowly and steadily ever since I began...now I'm but a Brown Belt in the AKKI. Proud of it, making No apologies for it....nor bragging about it. I hope to be testing for Black sometime soon, when everything is ready and I can make it to Vegas.
I'll keep you posted if you like. 

My first instructor was in 1998, Mr. Rogert W. Taylor, 3rd degree Black Belt and student of Mr. Mills. He himself was first a student under the NCKKA, then later studied in the IKKA under Bruce Thomson (whom is NOW also a personal student of Mr. Mills and one of the seniors of the AKKI), he then moved to L.A. where he went to Mr. Trejo's school....then he got his Black Belt under Mr. Mohammed Tabatabai. Later he was accepted as a personal student of Mr. Mills and was subsequently (through the years) promoted to 2nd and then 3rd Black w/in the AKKI. 
I spent many hours every week with Mr. Taylor and benefited a great deal from his insight and experience in Kenpo Karate. *I'm forever indebted to him*. 
Not all that long ago SEVERAL things happened in Mr. Taylor's personal life (Marriage, major carreer change, moved to a different city....etc.) that made it impossible to continue with him. I then began training under Mr. Sean J. Carey and now also under Mr. John Connolly whom flies up to Kansas as often as he can (more often than you'd think) and has given me a WORLD of help and encouragement and instruction along my path.

*True: * I've not made it to _nearly_ as many of the Vegas camps as I'd like to have. So how do I gain the new material? Slowly.  But steadily. I try to gain what I can when I can and assimilate it to the best of my ability. My instructors do make the camps. Mr. Connolly is one of the real "Regulars" in teaching the different material and goes up to Evanston to learn from his instructor (Mr. Mills) on a very regular basis. (being a comercial airline pilot, he can do that kind of thing). Also: I've got to give a lot of credit to Mr. Alan Jacob for exchanging MANY e-mails with me and letting me call him at all hours when I've got questions or need help with something. His advice, tips and leadership has meant so very much to me. Likewise Mr. Derek Ence has been a help whenever the opportunity existed.... he's also a student of Mr. Mills. As far as contact and help though, Mr. Mills himself cannot be beat!!!!! Though he's an exceedingly busy man in every area of his life, he's made himself so very available to me whenever I've needed to talk to him. He's a very giving man. 
I don't know where I'd be without such a supportive group of people helping me out. That's what a good association should be all about I think, backing up everyone. 

Honestly Clyde....I don't recall you or anyone asking me these things before. ((PLEASE point out where I've been asked these things and avoided them....I don't think they exist) Seems you've wanted to paint me as evasive.... hope I've dispelled that here.

IF you have any remaining questions, please post them or E-mail me... or you could call me; I'm home most evenings. I'm in the book.

Thanks
Your Brother
John


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## Brother John (Jul 31, 2005)

James-
I'm really glad that we could both keep our exchange respectful, speaks volumes of your personal cultivation as a warrior.  :asian: 

No doubt about the benefits of gymnastics!!!!! I'm really hoping he keeps his fire stoked for this!

Your thoughts/opinions on the AKKI are thought provoking.... whether I totally agree or not. I at least like to see that you think deeply about what you do and why: in that alone....we are brothers.



			
				Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> (6) Please tell me (this was not mentioned previous) where the grappling knowledge was DEVELOPED from.  I will blatantly have to explain where the Ju-Jitsu/Wrestling is in there and that is it in fact INTEGRATED not DEVELOPED.


I just don't know. There is grappling w/in Kenpo Karate (AKKI or not), I'd always thought that Mr. Mills et al have just expouned upon what was already there.... for instance:
The "Guillotine" techniques: These techs all end in different chokes/strangle holds. But the 'choke' or 'strangle-hold' isn't new to Kenpo... it's just that we've used our style of advance to 'enter' the hold itself. 
Good question.

Best of wishes to you James.

Your Brother
John


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## Brother John (Jul 31, 2005)

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> .     Would you mind listing your;
> 
> Experience in prior martial arts,
> DarK LorD



Do you REALLY want me to bore you with this stuff???
Kenpo Karate is my TRUE love. I appreciate the years I spent in other arts, but they are nothing compared to what Kenpo has done for me.
IF you really want to know this stuff I could post it here or PM or E-mail....etc. whatever. OR...you needn't even get bored with it all. I don't consider it to matter all that much.
You decide. I don't care.

Your Brother
John


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## KenpoEMT (Aug 1, 2005)

After having a conversation with an instructor senior to myself, I have come to the following conclusion:

This poll was started under the false assumption that AKKI Kenpo was the 'new' way of motion.

My assertation that AKKI Kenpo is the 'new' form or next generation of American Kenpo may very well be wrong.

To address Ed Parker's American Kenpo as the 'old' way and AKKI Kenpo as the 'new' way is not completely accurate. Master Parker said, "Kenpo never changes, it perpetually refines itself," and I think that is what we are seeing with regard to AKKI Kenpo.

It is clear that Master Parker didn't want his system of American Kenpo traditionalized. It is also clear that he set the minimum requirements of Kenpo in his writings. What this says to me is that Ed Parker's American Kenpo is a stepping stone. It is the first part of the journey. The minimum requirements of Kenpo were set in stone the day Infinite Insights Vol. V was distributed. Master Parker was not a stupid man; he knew that the moment people began purchasing their copies of this volume that the minimum requirements would forever be cemented in the minds of his students. This gives all Kenpoists a common starting place, but to say that the system is complete as it is and should not be evaluated by the individual practitioner is false. It clearly must be examined by the practitioner. Everything has to be questioned and probed for the purpose of moving forward. To constantly rehash the American Kenpo minimum requirements throughout the upper ranks only has limited value compared to progressing with the information provided (not necessarily creating your own system; I think we have enough of those).

Developing a personal 'way' of Kenpo is not an unreasonable expectation (as long as the one doing it is skilled enough to do so). With the core system remaining the same, there should be as many perspectives of Kenpo as there are numbers of skilled Kenpoists. 

I believe that Master Mills is moving in the right direction...for himself and those that follow him. I also believe that those who do not strive to take what was to be learned in the core system of AK and move beyond it are not taking any more steps on the journey of development (this isn't to say that those who don't move beyond the minimum requirements are not highly skilled within the core system). This does not mean that anyone should abandon the core system. I fail to see the problem behind a highly skilled Kenpoist merging forms and significantly tailoring techniques as long as all of the material remains effective, and as long as all of the new students are run through the core system first. If every technique can be viewed as a Master Key Technique and applied in any situation by a skilled practitioner, then we have the possibility of many systems developing from the core system, but "if it ain't broke..." 

As a side note, maybe one of the points of having so many techniques and forms/sets in American Kenpo was so that eventually the Kenpoist would examine the possibility of combining/merging forms, if only out of sheer frustration at so much material to practice on a daily basis. Train smarter, not harder (or train smarter and harder...).
That's my opinion. In the end, it is a matter of 'do what you love'.

Well, I think I discovered what I needed to discover. Thanks for all of the input.


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## lonekimono10 (Aug 1, 2005)

WELL, WELL, I DON'T KNOW WHAT IS BETTER,reading THIS OR THE NEW hARRY pOTTER bOOK, I WENT THOUGH 2 MUGS OF COFFEE READING THIS STUFF,
   pLEASE LETS NOT MAKE THIS SITE LIKE SOME OF THE OTHERS,

   ps Bruce Smith is a good guy,and a good friend.


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## KenpoEMT (Aug 1, 2005)

lonekimono10 said:
			
		

> pLEASE LETS NOT MAKE THIS SITE LIKE SOME OF THE OTHERS


I echo this sentiment.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Aug 1, 2005)

lonekimono10 said:
			
		

> WELL, WELL, I DON'T KNOW WHAT IS BETTER,reading THIS OR THE NEW hARRY pOTTER bOOK, I WENT THOUGH 2 MUGS OF COFFEE READING THIS STUFF,
> pLEASE LETS NOT MAKE THIS SITE LIKE SOME OF THE OTHERS,
> 
> ps Bruce Smith is a good guy,and a good friend.


Here Here!


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## Brother John (Aug 1, 2005)

From everything I know and have heard of him Mr. Smith is a fine man and martial artist.
...and for keeping these forums "Clearer" of the guff that others have.......
YES.....LETS!

Your Brother
John


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## SHADOW (Nov 23, 2005)

(1) A lot of the drills are nearly identical to drills from other systems I've studied. The timing drills I've been exposed to do exist in EPAK techniques already the way I learned them. Several have debated this point and I simply state "you must didn't learn the EPAK techniques in the manner I did." I can provide explanations on demand as necessary.
(2) A lot of the knife and stick work is FMA plain and simple, yes it fits in with Kenpo's hand work well. It usually does, ask any of 'Huk" Planas' guys about that. FMA and Kenpo integrate almost seemlessly. So for someone experienced with escrima/kali to state that it works right in with the empty hand stuff is quite plausible. From my experience with FMA it always does so that does not detract from the statement that it is FMA. It's not so much DEVELOPED as it is INTEGRATED.
(3) With my knowledge of the EQUATION FORMULA and EPAK I'll paraphrase Mr. Planas 'I defy anybody to show me a new technique, all they are going to show me is a new ending somebody made up and I'll show them 5 endings they've never seen' 'Flashing Swords' - Start delayed sword, delete kick, suffix middle sequence of Bow-of-compulsion extension with adjusted angles. 'Swords of Fury' - Start sword of destruction, delete kick and chop, suffix last tree hand strikes from Five Swords w/ the extension, delete the ending kick of extension. Those are two examples and I'm not going any further due to respect for not spreading the AKKI knowledge I have with Non-AKKI members accessing this board. I don't like the 'politics' of that, but I took an oath and am a man of my word.
(4) The 'offensive techniques' are a "new way of TEACHING" what the freestyles should have taught if people actually taught them everywhere. There is also alot of Kung Fu/Wing Chun/Jeet Kune Do trapping integrated for the entries and counter-blows. Nothing wrong with that but it is what it is as they say. This stuff isn't just coming out of thin air as is often suggested. It isn't as much being DEVELOPED as it is being INTEGRATED from other systems. Nothing wrong with that but give credit where it's due.
(5) On the "Hockheim comment" I have only my friends' word and as such will be logged as 'rumor' and rightfully so. But see above statements on FMA and let the readers be the judges of their own opinions.
(6) Please tell me (this was not mentioned previous) where the grappling knowledge was DEVELOPED from. I will blatantly have to explain where the Ju-Jitsu/Wrestling is in there and that is it in fact INTEGRATED not DEVELOPED.

AMEN Kenpojujitsu !

Craig Dishmon
Kenpo-Parker/Planas Lineage
Pekiti-Tirsia- McGrath/Whitson Lineage
Remy Presas Arnis
THE DIRTY BOYZ


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Nov 23, 2005)

SHADOW said:
			
		

> (1) A lot of the drills are nearly identical to drills from other systems I've studied. The timing drills I've been exposed to do exist in EPAK techniques already the way I learned them. Several have debated this point and I simply state "you must didn't learn the EPAK techniques in the manner I did." I can provide explanations on demand as necessary.
> (2) A lot of the knife and stick work is FMA plain and simple, yes it fits in with Kenpo's hand work well. It usually does, ask any of 'Huk" Planas' guys about that. FMA and Kenpo integrate almost seemlessly. So for someone experienced with escrima/kali to state that it works right in with the empty hand stuff is quite plausible. From my experience with FMA it always does so that does not detract from the statement that it is FMA. It's not so much DEVELOPED as it is INTEGRATED.
> (3) With my knowledge of the EQUATION FORMULA and EPAK I'll paraphrase Mr. Planas 'I defy anybody to show me a new technique, all they are going to show me is a new ending somebody made up and I'll show them 5 endings they've never seen' 'Flashing Swords' - Start delayed sword, delete kick, suffix middle sequence of Bow-of-compulsion extension with adjusted angles. 'Swords of Fury' - Start sword of destruction, delete kick and chop, suffix last tree hand strikes from Five Swords w/ the extension, delete the ending kick of extension. Those are two examples and I'm not going any further due to respect for not spreading the AKKI knowledge I have with Non-AKKI members accessing this board. I don't like the 'politics' of that, but I took an oath and am a man of my word.
> (4) The 'offensive techniques' are a "new way of TEACHING" what the freestyles should have taught if people actually taught them everywhere. There is also alot of Kung Fu/Wing Chun/Jeet Kune Do trapping integrated for the entries and counter-blows. Nothing wrong with that but it is what it is as they say. This stuff isn't just coming out of thin air as is often suggested. It isn't as much being DEVELOPED as it is being INTEGRATED from other systems. Nothing wrong with that but give credit where it's due.
> ...


 
And how long have I been saying this Craig LOL?   Good to see you posting again.

DarK LorD


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## lonekimono10 (Dec 1, 2005)

I im BACK!! Hello , so i see the AKKI IS STILL THE FUTURE OF KENPO.
nothing changes


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## pete (Dec 1, 2005)

stick around long enough and the future becomes the past and what's old becomes new again... pete.


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## lonekimono10 (Dec 1, 2005)

pete said:
			
		

> stick around long enough and the future becomes the past and what's old becomes new again... pete.


 
let me see if i can remember this line to a song.


"the north moves south, the south moves north, a star is born a star burns out, the only thing that stays the same is everything changes"

but i like what you said Pete.


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## KenpoEMT (Dec 27, 2005)

Perhaps my conclusions here were not accurate. Perhaps this poll was flawed.


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## Brother John (Dec 27, 2005)

From the get-go it was BOUND for little more than political turmoil....and nothing else.

Oh well...

Your Brother
John


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## hongkongfooey (Dec 30, 2005)

Infighting in the Kenpo community? Say it isn't so.


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## Franc0 (Jan 6, 2006)

"Higher proficiency through *innovation"* ? With all due respect, the last word should be replaced with *"Integration"* or maybe even *"Imitation"*.
(ducks for cover)


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## Brian Jones (Jan 6, 2006)

masterfinger said:
			
		

> "Higher proficiency through *innovation"* ? With all due respect, the last word should be replaced with *"Integration"* or maybe even *"Imitation"*.
> (ducks for cover)


 
Umm. Ok,  you threw teh gauntlet, care to explain?  I don't  mind debating and perhaps even consceding a bit, but I am not sure where you are going.

Brian Jones


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## Franc0 (Jan 6, 2006)

Brian, no disrespect towards the AKKI at all. Some of my best friends are AKKI instructors, and I hold the highest regards for their skill. I've worked alongside Mr. Herman and Mr. Lannon doing security in Vegas    I consider them,the best ever to watch my back when the s**t hit's the fan.
However, there are some elements that have been introduced that have not been credited towards the influence or integration into the AKKI curriculum. Like someone else said, theirs no longer any such "innovations" when it comes to martial arts/human movements. Unless you consider innovations as simply another way to put together the pieces of the puzzle, they're still the same pieces, and only so many ways they can be put together, which was figured out long ago. I've asked about this on the AKKI forum, and instead of at least crediting where certain influences came from, it was considered a "Mill's Innovation". I respect his abilities and consider him a martial artist of the highest caliber, but unless he's grown a 3rd arm, "innovations" could be better described as "realisations through integration". Sorry, I should have said that before, and I apologise for any disrespect that may have been felt.


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## KenpoEMT (Jan 6, 2006)

I respect your opinion in this matter; however, I do find innovative concepts within the small amount of information that I know about the AKKI.

I find the concept of using rythmic timing/tempo patterns to govern the execution of techniques to be innovative.
I find the idea of moving with the d1/d2 flexion/extension patterns in order to "hardwire" the CNS to be innovative. 
The concept of teaching multiple phases of a form is innovative. As skill evolves, the execution of the form evolves as well (obviously); however, within the AKKI, it seems the forms themselves evolve through phases as the practitioner's skill increases.
The little that I know of the three AKKI Orbital Considerations is absolutely fascinating (and quite innovative). The threes on the crest pique my curiosity as to what their equal opposites must be.

All in all, my earlier conclusions about Mr. Mills and the AKKI were clearly wrong. I think that there are many new and interesting things being implemented by the members of the AKKI. Innovation is clearly present.


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## KenpoEMT (Jan 6, 2006)

Innovation begins with thought.

Humans have always had the materials available to build a space shuttle. It took the evolution of education, curiosity, trial and error, and innovation for us to actually make use of the materials that have always been around in order for us to begin the exploration of our solar system.

To me, the martial arts experienced, and is currently experiencing, the same evolution. The capacity for the human body to move as SGM Parker and GM Mills has existed since the first human. It takes education, curiosity, trial and error, and innovation to bring this capacity to fruition.

To say that there is nothing new under the sun does not invalidate the innovations of Mr. Mills and those who follow him. The argument that there is no new human movement could have been used against SGM Parker, yet he still changed the face of modern martial arts.

I don't know very many Kenpo people who move like this:
http://www.akki.com/_videos/index.htm (check out the "speed clip" at the very top. There's a great shot of SGM Parker SMOKIN' a technique!)
If what GM Mills teaches will lead to this type of speed, precision, and power, than I'm am all ears.


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## jdinca (Jan 6, 2006)

That's a cool clip.  

On the inward block clips, what did you think about the inward block finishing down across the body? It appeared that it left the right side of the head open for a left hand strike. If his block does what it appears to though, the question is moot.


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## KenpoEMT (Jan 6, 2006)

Yep, that block is absolutely incredible! He must have harmonized every aspect of the motion of his body in order to produce THAT fight ending block. Just the SOUND alone was phenomenal! 

Did you catch the "_New Speed Clip_" link? It's at the very top, above the still frames on the left hand side. There's a shot in there which shows Mr. Mills' quick-draw. Incredible!  I think he held the world record at one point in time. Perhaps he still does, I'm not sure.


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## jdinca (Jan 6, 2006)

The gun draw was damned impressive too.


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## Brian Jones (Jan 7, 2006)

masterfinger said:
			
		

> Brian, no disrespect towards the AKKI at all. Some of my best friends are AKKI instructors, and I hold the highest regards for their skill. I've worked alongside Mr. Herman and Mr. Lannon doing security in Vegas I consider them,the best ever to watch my back when the s**t hit's the fan.
> However, there are some elements that have been introduced that have not been credited towards the influence or integration into the AKKI curriculum. Like someone else said, theirs no longer any such "innovations" when it comes to martial arts/human movements. Unless you consider innovations as simply another way to put together the pieces of the puzzle, they're still the same pieces, and only so many ways they can be put together, which was figured out long ago. I've asked about this on the AKKI forum, and instead of at least crediting where certain influences came from, it was considered a "Mill's Innovation". I respect his abilities and consider him a martial artist of the highest caliber, but unless he's grown a 3rd arm, "innovations" could be better described as "realisations through integration". Sorry, I should have said that before, and I apologise for any disrespect that may have been felt.


 
  Actually, no offense taken.  I was honestly curious.  I agree that there are some drills that look a lot like Filipino drills (hubud-lubud etc.).  Did he AKKI take them from there?  I don't know.  They do look awfully similar, and some of the stick drills are just siniwali patterns.  I have heard third and fourth hand that Mr. Mills claims to have come up with these dirlls on his own but I haven't heard anything direcly.   I personally wouldn't have a problem with someone saying these drills come from this art, but we are putting a new spin on it.   I agree with your other thoughts though, some of the stuff is pretty creative, and extremely effective


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## Brian Jones (Jan 7, 2006)

jdinca said:
			
		

> That's a cool clip.
> 
> On the inward block clips, what did you think about the inward block finishing down across the body? It appeared that it left the right side of the head open for a left hand strike. If his block does what it appears to though, the question is moot.


 
  In part I think its the angle of the camera.  I don't think it finishes quite as far as it appears.  Plus you have to take into account the body reaction of the person punching.  I have had my intrructor do this on me, and that's pretty much what happens.

Brian Jones


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## jdinca (Jan 7, 2006)

Brian Jones said:
			
		

> In part I think its the angle of the camera. I don't think it finishes quite as far as it appears. Plus you have to take into account the body reaction of the person punching. I have had my intrructor do this on me, and that's pretty much what happens.
> 
> Brian Jones


 
Thanks for the reply. It looked and sounded pretty effective. I don't think his "ow!" was for the camera.


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## cloak13 (Jan 13, 2006)

Brian Jones said:
			
		

> I have heard third and fourth hand that Mr. Mills claims to have come up with these dirlls on his own but I haven't heard anything direcly.



I think I've steered clear of this post for quite some time but kinda feel like I should address this comment. As an AKKI guy I can say with all honesty that I also see gross motor skill parrallells in what we do versus other system's drills and sets. But discussing these things with FMA practicioners I see vast differences in the little things that become very large things when coupled together. For example: differences in alignment between the two "drillers", the order of movements in sets to simplify learning the set. I personally don't care if Mr. Mills did get these ideas from other systems. He has changed little things with them that I've found very interesting and useful.

I try not to talk about the AKKI's "innovations", or why I like their approach to Kenpo best, but I will say that if you are only looking at the surface you are missing a lot. I've said before and I'll say again that one of my favorite things about the AKKI is how easily I internalized the material. Part of that is a credit to my instructor, but another part is a credit to the curriculum's structure.

I love what the AKKI is doing. Do I think it is shaping the future of Kenpo, no I don't. The AKKI is shaping Kenpo for AKKI people but we're not some kind of virus out to take over the Kenpo world (atleast as far as I know). If you're happy with what you're doing and it works for you do it! Stick to your practices and enjoy your activities. 

Have a nice day,
Tim Kulp
Westminster, MD


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## Brian Jones (Jan 13, 2006)

cloak13 said:
			
		

> I think I've steered clear of this post for quite some time but kinda feel like I should address this comment. As an AKKI guy I can say with all honesty that I also see gross motor skill parrallells in what we do versus other system's drills and sets. But discussing these things with FMA practicioners I see vast differences in the little things that become very large things when coupled together. For example: differences in alignment between the two "drillers", the order of movements in sets to simplify learning the set. I personally don't care if Mr. Mills did get these ideas from other systems. He has changed little things with them that I've found very interesting and useful.
> 
> I try not to talk about the AKKI's "innovations", or why I like their approach to Kenpo best, but I will say that if you are only looking at the surface you are missing a lot. I've said before and I'll say again that one of my favorite things about the AKKI is how easily I internalized the material. Part of that is a credit to my instructor, but another part is a credit to the curriculum's structure.
> 
> ...


 

  Tim I agree with you.  I love what the AKKI is doing.  All I meant was when introduced to FMA, I thought, wow I have seen this before. Yes with subtle differences.  Of course I shouldn't be surprised after all they are in universal set lol.  All I was saying was, yes I recognize similarities, but I was in no posistion to say where the patterns came from.  I didn't want to quote Mr. Mills when all I had was second or even third hand quotes.   And ultimatley it doesn't matter where it came from once we make it ours its ours.  Thanks for your reply.

Brian Jones


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## Brother John (Jan 14, 2006)

jdinca said:
			
		

> That's a cool clip.
> 
> On the inward block clips, what did you think about the inward block finishing down across the body? It appeared that it left the right side of the head open for a left hand strike. *If his block does what it appears to though, the question is moot*.


I think I know which clip you are talking about:
trust me..........your question IS moot. When Mr. Mills passes his hand at, on, through and beyond your arm, you (or anyone) would be lucky to still be standing, let along raising/thrusting the other arm with anything that could be considered force. 
But: this clip was just an example, a sampling of motion....not a rationale for HOW to execute a tactic-perfect technique. IF you study the techniques that Mr. Mills has put forth, staying covered/checked/defended etc. is a big consideration to keep the practitioner safe....even while dolling out some very thunderous strikes.

Your Brother
John


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## Kalicombat (Jan 15, 2006)

I'll throw my hat in on this topic as I too have refrained for a long time. First, the clips on the AKKI website may infact show Mr. Mills' speed, but they also show him going against a static UKE. Everyone of those "devestating" strikes, blocks, whatever, are against a completely still uke. No one has offered any resistance. This is not saying anything negative about Mills, simply stating something that I have not seen made mention of. 

Now, a question. Why would Mr. Mills feel compelled to deliver those kinds of shots to his students? Is it to build his own ego? I doubt it, but there is no cause for him to smack those guys like he has in the video. MY KENPO, we learn to avoid getting struck, feints, blocks, etc.... and it can't be done by being a sitting duck for anyone, including Mr. Mills. I've been to some seminars with Kenpo seniors that feel it is an uke's responsibility to passively stand there, and get beat on....Im not one of them. Ive also seen some students throw a big old wrench into the day and actually not just stand there and take a beating. I understand the role of an uke is to "play along", and as such, the exchange should be reciprocated. All too often, devoted colored belts are used as ukes, and "play along", but the instructor is going full tilt. Is this some kind of testing of the uke, too show how stupid they can be and just take a beating for the benefit of a class of paid seminarians or students???? Are the remarkable speed and devestating delivery of some seniors as much so even against a resisting opponent? What about one that strikes first, strikes back, and actually throws a what-if in there every once in awhile? I attended of one of those Dillman knockout seminars. Yeah, one of his blackbelts knocked a few guys out, but was unable to know others out, especially those of us that did not just stand there and take  unexpected shots to the throat and forehead. When it didn't work on me, I was told I was being uncooperative and resistant!??!?? Damn, imagine that, an uncooperative and resistant opponent on the street...HMMMMMM.

Just some thoughts,
Gary C.


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## Doc (Jan 15, 2006)

Kalicombat said:
			
		

> I'll throw my hat in on this topic as I too have refrained for a long time. First, the clips on the AKKI website may infact show Mr. Mills' speed, but they also show him going against a static UKE. Everyone of those "devestating" strikes, blocks, whatever, are against a completely still uke. No one has offered any resistance. This is not saying anything negative about Mills, simply stating something that I have not seen made mention of.
> 
> Now, a question. Why would Mr. Mills feel compelled to deliver those kinds of shots to his students? Is it to build his own ego? I doubt it, but there is no cause for him to smack those guys like he has in the video. MY KENPO, we learn to avoid getting struck, feints, blocks, etc.... and it can't be done by being a sitting duck for anyone, including Mr. Mills. I've been to some seminars with Kenpo seniors that feel it is an uke's responsibility to passively stand there, and get beat on....Im not one of them. Ive also seen some students throw a big old wrench into the day and actually not just stand there and take a beating. I understand the role of an uke is to "play along", and as such, the exchange should be reciprocated. All too often, devoted colored belts are used as ukes, and "play along", but the instructor is going full tilt. Is this some kind of testing of the uke, too show how stupid they can be and just take a beating for the benefit of a class of paid seminarians or students???? Are the remarkable speed and devestating delivery of some seniors as much so even against a resisting opponent? What about one that strikes first, strikes back, and actually throws a what-if in there every once in awhile? I attended of one of those Dillman knockout seminars. Yeah, one of his blackbelts knocked a few guys out, but was unable to know others out, especially those of us that did not just stand there and take  unexpected shots to the throat and forehead. When it didn't work on me, I was told I was being uncooperative and resistant!??!?? Damn, imagine that, an uncooperative and resistant opponent on the street...HMMMMMM.
> 
> ...


Preach brother.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Jan 15, 2006)

Kalicombat said:
			
		

> I'll throw my hat in on this topic as I too have refrained for a long time. First, the clips on the AKKI website may infact show Mr. Mills' speed, but they also show him going against a static UKE. Everyone of those "devestating" strikes, blocks, whatever, are against a completely still uke. No one has offered any resistance. This is not saying anything negative about Mills, simply stating something that I have not seen made mention of.
> 
> Now, a question. Why would Mr. Mills feel compelled to deliver those kinds of shots to his students? Is it to build his own ego? I doubt it, but there is no cause for him to smack those guys like he has in the video. MY KENPO, we learn to avoid getting struck, feints, blocks, etc.... and it can't be done by being a sitting duck for anyone, including Mr. Mills. I've been to some seminars with Kenpo seniors that feel it is an uke's responsibility to passively stand there, and get beat on....Im not one of them. Ive also seen some students throw a big old wrench into the day and actually not just stand there and take a beating. I understand the role of an uke is to "play along", and as such, the exchange should be reciprocated. All too often, devoted colored belts are used as ukes, and "play along", but the instructor is going full tilt. Is this some kind of testing of the uke, too show how stupid they can be and just take a beating for the benefit of a class of paid seminarians or students???? Are the remarkable speed and devestating delivery of some seniors as much so even against a resisting opponent? What about one that strikes first, strikes back, and actually throws a what-if in there every once in awhile? I attended of one of those Dillman knockout seminars. Yeah, one of his blackbelts knocked a few guys out, but was unable to know others out, especially those of us that did not just stand there and take unexpected shots to the throat and forehead. When it didn't work on me, I was told I was being uncooperative and resistant!??!?? Damn, imagine that, an uncooperative and resistant opponent on the street...HMMMMMM.
> 
> ...


 
I've said it. I've said it about Tatum, about Mills, about myself, and about Kenpoists in general. Thumping on an UKE is a big advancemant over traditional Karate and Kung Fu training techniques. Making your techniquies work on fully resisting opponents is the next step. Still hoping to see someone much better than I am putting it on tape.


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## Doc (Jan 15, 2006)

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> I've said it. I've said it about Tatum, about Mills, about myself, and about Kenpoists in general. Thumping on an UKE is a big advancemant over traditional Karate and Kung Fu training techniques. Making your techniquies work on fully resisting opponents is the next step. Still hoping to see someone much better than I am putting it on tape.


We have a classroom procedure called "The Challenge." A student is allowed to challenge the effectiveness or efficacy of any concept, technique, or methodology during certain segments of class by any teacher. It insures competency, and promotes faith in the curriculum by the student body. Students are admonished during these exercises to  not necessarily accept anyone's "word" for anythng they must rely on for survival. Test, challenge, and then test again among themselves, is encouraged. Perceived deficiencies are always addressed. Having a plethora of different law enforcement agencies in-house doesn't allow "puffery" in the teaching of curriculum. Everything is classified as either ineffective, effective, more effective, or most effective. The fourth level is always the objective, and we never settle for "just" effective.


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## Brian Jones (Jan 16, 2006)

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> I've said it. I've said it about Tatum, about Mills, about myself, and about Kenpoists in general. Thumping on an UKE is a big advancemant over traditional Karate and Kung Fu training techniques. Making your techniquies work on fully resisting opponents is the next step. Still hoping to see someone much better than I am putting it on tape.


 
    Honestly, you just can't win.  If you never show what Kenpo can do people say you are full of hot air.  If you do show soemthing then people say well sure if you have a willing Uke, or why would one of oyur stuents elt themselves be beat on.  Or anyone can defend agaisnt a static punch.  
     First of all in clips like these none of the senoirs (Mr. Tatum, Mr. Mills etc.) are trying to defend themselves.  They are illustrating a principle and doing it with as much clarity as possible.
    Yes there is a difference between demonstaring and fighting someone who is resistant.  So are you saying you doubt their abilities to denfd themselves?  Do you need to see video of that too or would you even then find something to pick a part?

Brian Jones


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Jan 16, 2006)

Brian Jones said:
			
		

> Honestly, you just can't win. If you never show what Kenpo can do people say you are full of hot air. If you do show soemthing then people say well sure if you have a willing Uke, or why would one of oyur stuents elt themselves be beat on. Or anyone can defend agaisnt a static punch.
> First of all in clips like these none of the senoirs (Mr. Tatum, Mr. Mills etc.) are trying to defend themselves. They are illustrating a principle and doing it with as much clarity as possible.
> Yes there is a difference between demonstaring and fighting someone who is resistant. So are you saying you doubt their abilities to denfd themselves? Do you need to see video of that too or would you even then find something to pick a part?
> 
> Brian Jones


 
You are right that people say Kenpo is "full of ... [whatever]"... because  they've never seen it done on a resisting opponent.  I am not saying it doesn't work.  It certainly does work in many situations.  I am saying that I would love to see Kenpo in action caught on video.


----------



## Kalicombat (Jan 16, 2006)

Brian Jones said:
			
		

> Honestly, you just can't win. If you never show what Kenpo can do people say you are full of hot air. If you do show soemthing then people say well sure if you have a willing Uke, or why would one of oyur stuents elt themselves be beat on. Or anyone can defend agaisnt a static punch.
> First of all in clips like these none of the senoirs (Mr. Tatum, Mr. Mills etc.) are trying to defend themselves. They are illustrating a principle and doing it with as much clarity as possible.
> Yes there is a difference between demonstaring and fighting someone who is resistant. So are you saying you doubt their abilities to denfd themselves? Do you need to see video of that too or would you even then find something to pick a part?
> 
> Brian Jones


 
Kenpo is the most effective system I have been exposed to. Im not disputing that. What I have a problem with basically is all the doe-eyed adornment of some kenpo seniors, in this case Mr. Mill's, by naive students that think mpeg video clips offer a direct correlation to that seniors ability. Demonstration clips, which the ones in question are, do not represent anything more then some instructors' ability to beat up his students. Would the "mind boggeling" speed be nearly as impressive if all parties had gear on, and the UKE was not allowing the techniques to happen? What about all the spontaneity everyone talks about. Demonstration videos offer no spontaneity, no real gauge of any persons ability other then their knowledge of the movements of a technique. 

Just my opinion,
Gary C.


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## Doc (Jan 16, 2006)

Brian Jones said:
			
		

> Honestly, you just can't win.  If you never show what Kenpo can do people say you are full of hot air.  If you do show soemthing then people say well sure if you have a willing Uke, or why would one of oyur stuents elt themselves be beat on.  Or anyone can defend agaisnt a static punch.
> First of all in clips like these none of the senoirs (Mr. Tatum, Mr. Mills etc.) are trying to defend themselves.  They are illustrating a principle and doing it with as much clarity as possible.
> Yes there is a difference between demonstaring and fighting someone who is resistant.  So are you saying you doubt their abilities to denfd themselves?  Do you need to see video of that too or would you even then find something to pick a part?
> 
> Brian Jones


Well, I don't think anybody is going quite that far, but you have to admit the presentation is questionable. Not because it doesn't demonstrate something, but because it doesn't demonstrate anything "special." I could step outside my office and find someone who, if you stand still and stick your arm out and allow them to hit it, could get the same results or better. It's not a matter of questioning someone's skill or ability, just a less than favorable presentation to demostrate a idea. Take it or leave it, it is what it is, or isn't.


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## Doc (Jan 16, 2006)

Kalicombat said:
			
		

> Kenpo is the most effective system I have been exposed to. Im not disputing that. What I have a problem with basically is all the doe-eyed adornment of some kenpo seniors, in this case Mr. Mill's, by naive students that think mpeg video clips offer a direct correlation to that seniors ability. Demonstration clips, which the ones in question are, do not represent anything more then some instructors' ability to beat up his students. Would the "mind boggeling" speed be nearly as impressive if all parties had gear on, and the UKE was not allowing the techniques to happen? What about all the spontaneity everyone talks about. Demonstration videos offer no spontaneity, no real gauge of any persons ability other then their knowledge of the movements of a technique.
> 
> Just my opinion,
> Gary C.


You still preachin'?


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## arnisador (Jan 16, 2006)

Doc said:
			
		

> Well, I don't think anybody is going quite that far, but you have to admit the presentation is questionable. Not because it doesn't demonstrate something, but because it doesn't demonstrate anything "special."


 
I just watched the clips, and I think this is exactly the issue. In each case a stationary and wide-open opponent is struck by someone who has the time to assume a stance and get a good look at his opponent's position. I don't know what I'm supposed to learn from that. If one wants to know how to beat up a dummy, take Wing Chun.

The pseudo-scientific descriptions of the techniques are typical of what one hears from those who believe that what they are doing is scientific despite their lack of training in the subject: 

"Some important physical quantities related to striking are momentum (p = mv), and kinetic energy (KE = 1/2 mv^2). The physics equations describing these quantities depend on mass and velocity, not on the amount of distance traveled in executing the strike. In this demonstration, the utilization of proper principles regarding speed and body alignment, not travel, gives tremendous power to the strike."

Focusing on _amount_ of distance omits the fact that velocity is exactly _rate of change_ of distance (displacement), i.e. p=mdx/dt, but leaving that aside, as well as the fact that p depends on velocity but K.E. depends on speed, if we assume that the strike is initially started from a previously stationary hand (null velocity, null acceleration), then to get more speed one needs more distance through which to accelerate. For a given velocity it's all well and good to say that p=mv, but to get a reasonable speed requires traveling through a certain distance. It seems to me that the real question here is how rapidly can one accelerate through the distance from the weapon to its target, that is, p=m*int(a(t)) is likely the best way to analyze it. Under the reasonable simplifying assumption of constant acceleration and null initial conditions, v=at and d=at^2/2 so the quantities are essentially interchangeable. After a given distance, you have a certain speed, and a certain speed corresponds to a given distance (until speed reaches a maximum or starts to decrease, if it does). Of course, until you can argue whether or not the collision is inelastic and how much energy is transferred to internal energy rather than energy of motion, it doesn't mean much.

"Using these principles, even the small mass of a finger whip has enormous destructive power. This is the same principle that allows the tip of a bullwhip to be accelerated so that the speed of the tip exceeds the speed of sound."

The crack of a whip comes from the whip forming a circular loop. Apparently this person can twist his forearm into a full circle.

This is just more pseudo-science used to trick the unwary. It's no different than claiming that you're moving people with your ki, to my way of thinking. It's a sales gimmick that is meant to impress people who don't know better than to believe it.


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## Brian Jones (Jan 17, 2006)

Kalicombat said:
			
		

> Kenpo is the most effective system I have been exposed to. Im not disputing that. What I have a problem with basically is all the doe-eyed adornment of some kenpo seniors, in this case Mr. Mill's, by naive students that think mpeg video clips offer a direct correlation to that seniors ability. Demonstration clips, which the ones in question are, do not represent anything more then some instructors' ability to beat up his students. Would the "mind boggeling" speed be nearly as impressive if all parties had gear on, and the UKE was not allowing the techniques to happen? What about all the spontaneity everyone talks about. Demonstration videos offer no spontaneity, no real gauge of any persons ability other then their knowledge of the movements of a technique.
> 
> Just my opinion,
> Gary C.


 
     You are right, demonstration vidoe offers no spontaneity.  I am not even arguing if what is demonstrated is "anything special"  (Doc's words).  That's up to teh viewer and Mr. Mills doesn't need the likes of me to defend him.  What I was saying is if we take this logic too far then why put any video out t here?  Its  never going to be perfect.  Or we can just appreiciate a clip for what it is.  By the way there is a CD of Mr. Mills "House of Pain Vol. 3" (I think) that does what you ask.  Paul Mills doing the techniques on Ukes who know what is coming, and are permitted to resist the technique.  Perhaps someone might have a clip of this they could put up or a link?  It might provide ofr an interesting discussion.

Brian Jones


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## MHeeler (Jan 18, 2006)

arnisador said:
			
		

> The pseudo-scientific descriptions of the techniques are typical of what one hears from those who believe that what they are doing is scientific despite their lack of training in the subject:
> 
> "Some important physical quantities related to striking are momentum (p = mv), and kinetic energy (KE = 1/2 mv^2). The physics equations describing these quantities depend on mass and velocity, not on the amount of distance traveled in executing the strike. In this demonstration, the utilization of proper principles regarding speed and body alignment, not travel, gives tremendous power to the strike."



I'll agree that the last sentence is perhaps a misapplication of the physics equations in question.  However, when taken separately, both the descriptions of the physics involved *and* the description of the physical technique are accurate.  Furthermore, to my knowledge, the AKKI has never claimed to be "scientific" in any way.  They *do* claim to take a logical and rational approach to self-defense and motion; this is subjective, to be sure, as is the entire realm of martial arts.



			
				arnisador said:
			
		

> Focusing on _amount_ of distance omits the fact that velocity is exactly _rate of change_ of distance (displacement), i.e. p=mdx/dt, but leaving that aside, as well as the fact that p depends on velocity but K.E. depends on speed, if we assume that the strike is initially started from a previously stationary hand (null velocity, null acceleration), then to get more speed one needs more distance through which to accelerate. For a given velocity it's all well and good to say that p=mv, but to get a reasonable speed requires traveling through a certain distance. It seems to me that the real question here is how rapidly can one accelerate through the distance from the weapon to its target, that is, p=m*int(a(t)) is likely the best way to analyze it. Under the reasonable simplifying assumption of constant acceleration and null initial conditions, v=at and d=at^2/2 so the quantities are essentially interchangeable. After a given distance, you have a certain speed, and a certain speed corresponds to a given distance (until speed reaches a maximum or starts to decrease, if it does). Of course, until you can argue whether or not the collision is inelastic and how much energy is transferred to internal energy rather than energy of motion, it doesn't mean much.



We both agree that v=dx/dt.  (In any case, whether we agree or not, this is a mathematical fact. :ultracool )  However, when you begin speaking about *acceleration*, you're changing the nature of the argument.  The AKKI statement did not address the acceleration of the striking hand.  It should have, in my opinion, but that's moot.

Muscular contraction cannot be adequately described using the physics model of kinematics.  There _is_ a small component of acceleration at the beginning of a contraction.  However, this acceleration takes place during the initial *micro-* or *nanoseconds* of the muscle action.  The rate of muscular velocity is entirely dependent upon a person's genetics, muscular phenotype, and level of muscular training.  I suppose we could discuss neuromuscular physiology, muscle fiber biochemistry, and motor unit recruitment, but that would be far beyond the scope of this thread (probably the entire forum).  In any case, maximum velocity is achieved at the very _initiation_ of muscular contraction.  Once full contraction/movement begins, no further velocity is achieved or possible.  This is why it is possible to strike with maximum velocity while moving very short distances.

You're right about the nature of the collision.  I don't think physics can accurately describe the nature of flesh on flesh impact.  There are probably far too many variables at play.  As I said earlier, almost the entire realm of martial arts is subjective.



			
				arnisador said:
			
		

> "Using these principles, even the small mass of a finger whip has enormous destructive power. This is the same principle that allows the tip of a bullwhip to be accelerated so that the speed of the tip exceeds the speed of sound."
> 
> The crack of a whip comes from the whip forming a circular loop. Apparently this person can twist his forearm into a full circle.
> 
> This is just more pseudo-science used to trick the unwary. It's no different than claiming that you're moving people with your ki, to my way of thinking. It's a sales gimmick that is meant to impress people who don't know better than to believe it.



I doubt the person who wrote the AKKI statement was even aware of this particular description of whip physics.  I believe the analogy is making reference to the notion of progressive acceleration (each successive part of the chain accelerates independently, thereby increasing the total acceleration exponentially).  From what I understood of the abstract you linked and your subsequent discussion, the analogy is still appropriate.  While the "loop" may not be present, progressive acceleration is.

Once again, I wouldn't call this "pseudo-science."  It may be a misapplication of scientific principles; at the least it's an attempt to logically apply those principles to describe human movement.  From my personal experience, these analogies have only been used to spark thought and understanding.  That's a far cry from attempts to "trick the unwary."  I agree that the existence of many people with those ulterior motives justifies a skeptical approach, but _assuming_ those motives exist is far from objective.  It depends on one's perspective, I guess.

MH


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## kenposikh (Jan 24, 2006)

Theban_Legion said:
			
		

> I would love to be wrong on this issue. Could one really walk into an LTKKA camp without being a member of the LTKKA and be part of the experience?
> 
> I don't know if you're willing to, but would you share some of the highlights of this camp?


 
Hi Consider yourself wrong,

I was at the LTKKA camp in June 2005 I am not a member of LTKKA and was welcomed with open arms made to feel like one of the family. HAd a great time.

Amrik


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## KenpoEMT (Jan 24, 2006)

Right on.

So, was it good? What was your favorite session?


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## kenposikh (Jan 24, 2006)

Yes it was excellent I thoroughly enjoyed the whole of my time while I was there. Sessions I took part in were excellent, I had a session with Clyde which was very interesting as well as Mr Kevin Mills from the UK who is my instructor as well but he and Clyde always amaze me with their knowledge of Kenpo.

Frank Trejo was there and his session was brilliant as well as MAster Tatum's

The Dinner was good although I was dissapointed there was no Dance afterwards so I could strut my stufgf all over the floor


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## Flying Crane (Jan 25, 2006)

arnisador said:
			
		

> I just watched the clips, and I think this is exactly the issue. In each case a stationary and wide-open opponent is struck by someone who has the time to assume a stance and get a good look at his opponent's position. I don't know what I'm supposed to learn from that. If one wants to know how to beat up a dummy, take Wing Chun.
> 
> The pseudo-scientific descriptions of the techniques are typical of what one hears from those who believe that what they are doing is scientific despite their lack of training in the subject:
> 
> ...


 
I think I gotta back up Arnisador on this one.  I see this desire to apply physics to kenpo and I just don't think it can be done in the way people seem to want to do it.  Sure, physics in a general way can help you understand how speed and torque and mass combine to create striking power, but this is all nebulous.  I think every martial art understands this and makes use of these principals.  It is only the Kenpo people that I have seen who try to actively write physics equations about it.

Combat is fluid and ever-changing.  Thinking that physic can be directly and actively applied to a combat situation is misdirected.  During a confrontation physics equations should be just about the last thing going thru your head.

An understanding of anatomy and physiology is more directly applicable to martial training.  I bet all arts use this information all the time.  But physics is different.

If someone can explain how physics is actively used in kenpo, in a combat situation, I would welcome the lesson.  Examples that go beyond the abstract notions of torque and accelleration relating to power, are what I am asking for.  thx.


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## Doc (Jan 25, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> I think I gotta back up Arnisador on this one.  I see this desire to apply physics to kenpo and I just don't think it can be done in the way people seem to want to do it.  Sure, physics in a general way can help you understand how speed and torque and mass combine to create striking power, but this is all nebulous.  I think every martial art understands this and makes use of these principals.  It is only the Kenpo people that I have seen who try to actively write physics equations about it.
> 
> Combat is fluid and ever-changing.  Thinking that physic can be directly and actively applied to a combat situation is misdirected.  During a confrontation physics equations should be just about the last thing going thru your head.
> 
> ...


If you go back into some old threads on the subject, I've said this many, many times. General Newtonian Physics apply, but that's all. The human body is a living breathing entity of connected tissue, fluids, semi-vicous material and solids that changes configuration from one jiffy second to the next. The use of physic equations to explain dynamic biomechanical function is ludicrous. A great smoke screen that simply spotlights the lack of understanding of human physiology and biomechanical actions. The human body is not an animated  2x4. Can Kenpo be scientific? Absolutely, but it's biomechnics, NOT physics teachers need to understand and should be discussing. Physics formulas in dynamic human interaction? Keep putting up formulas while the knowledgeable teach proper and useful biomechanics to students. Yep, now I've said it again. Gimme a buck.  ( I don't drink coffee).


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## arnisador (Jan 25, 2006)

Doc said:
			
		

> General Newtonian Physics apply, but that's all. The human body is a living breathing entity of connected tissue, fluids, semi-vicous material and solids that changes configuration from one jiffy second to the next. The use of physic equations to explain dynamic biomechanical function is ludicrous.


 
Yes, we're just not ready to tackle the whole problem. Look at membrane biphysics--trying to model the flow of nutrients across a single cellular membrane is already a challenging problem. Modeling the geometric shape of the human heart so as to understand surface conduction of the electrical charge that initiates the heart beat is a big challenge--_just modeling its shape_. I remember when a group at Duke U. came up with a detailed computer model of the lungs for the study of pollution's effects on people. It was a newsworthy item! All we can generally handle is isolated components, like electrical conduction along a short length of a nerve, or rough models, like the so-called "bathtub models" in pharmacology that model the body as having three components (blood, bone, tissue) that fill up with pharmaceuticals and empty them out like interconnected bathtubs.

Punch someone in the sternum? That's like punching something (fairly)solid, but how does it affect what's behind the sternum? Punch someone a few inches lower, in the abdomen? That's more like punching a water bag. Punch them in the ribs? Well, now you have solid (albeit flexible) bone strips spaced periodically...it's a lot of work to just set up the model and equations, before even asking specific questions!

I agree that physiology/anatomy/biomechanics are the key areas to consider. Much of the physics being used was developed for astronomy or ballistics (projectile motion). It's worth understanding some simple physics, yes, and that can often be relevant ("Why does the tip of the stick move so fast compared to the speed of the hand holding it?"). But most physics-based descriptions of techniques that I have read are either wrong or irrelevant.

That doesn't mean there aren't more and less effective ways to do things. It just means we have to look elsewhere for the answers.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 25, 2006)

Doc said:
			
		

> If you go back into some old threads on the subject, I've said this many, many times. General Newtonian Physics apply, but that's all. The human body is a living breathing entity of connected tissue, fluids, semi-vicous material and solids that changes configuration from one jiffy second to the next. The use of physic equations to explain dynamic biomechanical function is ludicrous. A great smoke screen that simply spotlights the lack of understanding of human physiology and biomechanical actions. The human body is not an animated 2x4. Can Kenpo be scientific? Absolutely, but it's biomechnics, NOT physics teachers need to understand and should be discussing. Physics formulas in dynamic human interaction? Keep putting up formulas while the knowledgeable teach proper and useful biomechanics to students. Yep, now I've said it again. Gimme a buck.  ( I don't drink coffee).


 
Thank you for that.  I'll send a buck, straight away!


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## Doc (Jan 25, 2006)

arnisador said:
			
		

> Yes, we're just not ready to tackle the whole problem. Look at membrane biphysics--trying to model the flow of nutrients across a single cellular membrane is already a challenging problem. Modeling the geometric shape of the human heart so as to understand surface conduction of the electrical charge that initiates the heart beat is a big challenge--_just modeling its shape_. I remember when a group at Duke U. came up with a detailed computer model of the lungs for the study of pollution's effects on people. It was a newsworthy item! All we can generally handle is isolated components, like electrical conduction along a short length of a nerve, or rough models, like the so-called "bathtub models" in pharmacology that model the body as having three components (blood, bone, tissue) that fill up with pharmaceuticals and empty them out like interconnected bathtubs.
> 
> Punch someone in the sternum? That's like punching something (fairly)solid, but how does it affect what's behind the sternum? Punch someone a few inches lower, in the abdomen? That's more like punching a water bag. Punch them in the ribs? Well, now you have solid (albeit flexible) bone strips spaced periodically...it's a lot of work to just set up the model and equations, before even asking specific questions!
> 
> ...


We are in total agreement sir. But watch someone try it again in the near future. Biomechanics anyone? (As I jump over the net, racket in hand)


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## Doc (Jan 25, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> Thank you for that.  I'll send a buck, straight away!


or diet Pepsi...


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## Carol (Feb 9, 2008)

Doc said:


> or diet Pepsi...



Flavored or unflavored?


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## Doc (Feb 9, 2008)

Carol Kaur said:


> Flavored or unflavored?



Please, I'm the original "Pepsi Generation."


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## masherdong (Feb 9, 2008)

lol, now just do the moonwalk with Michael Jackson and Alphonso Ribiero.


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## Doc (Feb 10, 2008)

masherdong said:


> lol, now just do the moonwalk with Michael Jackson and Alphonso Ribiero.



You know, You run your mouth kinda reckless for a man that don't go heeled."


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## NubreedKaliSilat (Feb 22, 2008)

I have personally trained with and know Mr. Mills. He is a very gifted martial artist and friend. He has idea's of what his people should train in and has developed many concepts and principles that fit into his Kenpo System. I trained in his basement in Wyoming and I shared many Filipino martial art concepts and principles with him. He is a man who can take something and make it work for him. He is always developing and moving forward in his skills and his understanding of many arts. His Black Belt student's bring alot of information into the table as well. I seen him go from having a few student's in his basement to having a fine Association of hundereds of practitioners. His skills also comes from owning and running one of the best bars in Evanston Wyoming and learning what works in that area of being a door man-bouncer! Anyone who has the responsibility to promote self defense has to keep up with the jones's or marty's LOL


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Feb 22, 2008)

NubreedKaliSilat said:


> I have personally trained with and know Mr. Mills. He is a very gifted martial artist and friend. He has idea's of what his people should train in and has developed many concepts and principles that fit into his Kenpo System. I trained in his basement in Wyoming and I shared many Filipino martial art concepts and principles with him. He is a man who can take something and make it work for him. He is always developing and moving forward in his skills and his understanding of many arts. His Black Belt student's bring alot of information into the table as well. I seen him go from having a few student's in his basement to having a fine Association of hundereds of practitioners. His skills also comes from owning and running one of the best bars in Evanston Wyoming and learning what works in that area of being a door man-bouncer! Anyone who has the responsibility to promote self defense has to keep up with the jones's or marty's LOL


 
Are you saying you taught him some FMA?


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## masherdong (Feb 23, 2008)

> You know, You run your mouth kinda reckless for a man that don't go heeled."



Ooops, did I say something offensive?  If so, my apologies.


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## Doc (Feb 23, 2008)

masherdong said:


> Ooops, did I say something offensive?  If so, my apologies.



You made a reference to a very old Coca Cola commercial. I responded in-kind with a quote from a movie. Can you name the film?


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## IWishToLearn (Feb 23, 2008)

Tombstone, 1993.


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## Doc (Feb 23, 2008)

IWishToLearn said:


> Tombstone, 1993.



"All right twinkle toes, what's your exit strategy?"


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## IWishToLearn (Feb 24, 2008)

True Lies, 1994.


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## masherdong (Feb 24, 2008)

> You made a reference to a very old Coca Cola commercial. I responded in-kind with a quote from a movie. Can you name the film?



Oh, ok.  I just wanted to make sure I didnt offend you sir.


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## Doc (Feb 24, 2008)

masherdong said:


> Oh, ok.  I just wanted to make sure I didnt offend you sir.



Don't worry about such things. I always assume a persons intentions are reasonable and honest, until given a reason to think otherwise sir.


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## Doc (Feb 24, 2008)

IWishToLearn said:


> True Lies, 1994.



Not bad for A guy whose distracted.

"Get out your water wings angel, you're walkin'."


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## Carol (Feb 24, 2008)

Doc said:


> Don't worry about such things. I always assume a persons intentions are reasonable and honest, until given a reason to think otherwise sir.



Is that anything like being nice until its time not to be nice?


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## Doc (Feb 24, 2008)

Carol Kaur said:


> Is that anything like being nice until its time not to be nice?


"Who loves ya baby?"


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## Carol (Feb 24, 2008)

Doc said:


> "Who loves ya baby?"



We're all born bald, baby!


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## Doc (Feb 24, 2008)

Carol Kaur said:


> We're all born bald, baby!



But, we aren't all born cute!


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## IWishToLearn (Feb 25, 2008)

You got me on that one. Gotta pass the time at work somehow, right?


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## IWishToLearn (Feb 25, 2008)

"The original voodoo man from mars..."


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## masherdong (Feb 25, 2008)

> "Who loves ya baby?"



Telly Savalas - Kojak?


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## Doc (Feb 27, 2008)

masherdong said:


> Telly Savalas - Kojak?


Telly Savalas and Ving Rhanes as "Kojak."

"Now gimme that stud, and go on about your business."


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## ChadWarner (Feb 27, 2008)

Doc said:


> Telly Savalas and Ving Rhanes as "Kojak."
> 
> "Now gimme that stud, and go on about your business."


 
How come the mods arent getting hostile for not staying on point?  Did you arrest them?:roflmao:


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## Doc (Feb 27, 2008)

ChadWarner said:


> How come the mods arent getting hostile for not staying on point?  Did you arrest them?:roflmao:



I always thought "poll" questions were kinda open ended once you've answered the query. Don't go poking sleeping dogs with a sharp stick. Let me know about the C-Book.


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## Kenpo1981 (Jun 10, 2009)

*   I am a former AKKA member, former IKKA member, former UKF member and current AKKI member. I've seen a lot and experienced these various organizations.  I was fortunate to attend one of Mr. Parker's last seminars and get to spend some up-close time with him as well. I've met great people and learned very useful things.*

*   I recently attended a 3 day AKKI camp in Evanston, Wyoming. I was so impressed with everyone from Mr. Mills on down. The quality of instruction was first class from him and his senior Black Belts. The overall attitude in the organization was just the best. The skill level was impressive.*

*   Based on my experience, I would say Mr. Mills is trying to lead his followers to be better at Kenpo and to be better people in general. I guarantee he teaches EPAK, just his interpretation of what he learned from Mr. Parker, coupled with his innovations. AKKI Kenpo is HOT! I'm proud to be involved with them and encourage any of you that are interested to take a closer look if the opportunity arises.*

*   Keep Kenpo alive and thriving!*


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