# Do you visit other WC/WT schools?



## geezer (Apr 8, 2009)

There have been a lot of posts asking about this or that lineage and how other chunners do things. It's hard to get a fair idea of how the other guys approach things from youtube, and harder still to meaningfully discuss techniques with the written word on a forum. The obvious answer would be to visit other schools when the opportunity arises. But, with all the jealousy between the WC/WT organizations... can you really do that? I know that I would feel uncomfortable even visiting my old Si-hing across town now that our organizations have split and are even involved in legal action against each other! Honestly, I don't really get it. We live in a country of over 300 million people and the WC/WT people are at each others throats over a handful of students. So, I'm still making an effort to reach out. After work eases up a bit, I'm going to try to promote a open "Chi-sau" workout on Sundays at a local park. We'll see how that goes.

Anyway, how is it for the rest of you? Do you ever visit other schools? And if so, how are you received?


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## futsaowingchun (Apr 8, 2009)

geezer said:


> There have been a lot of posts asking about this or that lineage and how other chunners do things. It's hard to get a fair idea of how the other guys approach things from youtube, and harder still to meaningfully discuss techniques with the written word on a forum. The obvious answer would be to visit other schools when the opportunity arises. But, with all the jealousy between the WC/WT organizations... can you really do that? I know that I would feel uncomfortable even visiting my old Si-hing across town now that our organizations have split and are even involved in legal action against each other! Honestly, I don't really get it. We live in a country of over 300 million people and the WC/WT people are at each others throats over a handful of students. So, I'm still making an effort to reach out. After work eases up a bit, I'm going to try to promote a open "Chi-sau" workout on Sundays at a local park. We'll see how that goes.
> 
> Anyway, how is it for the rest of you? Do you ever visit other schools? And if so, how are you received?



Your right on the money here..It's hard but not impossible to get together with other schools to do some friendly training, exchange information and perhaps build a friendship between schools. This is the right thinking and this is what us better as individual MAist and raises the WC bar. We find out what works and what does not without killing eachother. I'm all for this open exchange.My sifu school as an open door policy.Anyone can come to our school or near by park to get together and test skills.My self I do this all the time.I train my guys every sunday in the park in Chintaown and we take on all comers.


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## bs10927 (Apr 9, 2009)

same park?


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## qwksilver61 (Apr 9, 2009)

geezer said:


> There have been a lot of posts asking about this or that lineage and how other chunners do things. It's hard to get a fair idea of how the other guys approach things from youtube, and harder still to meaningfully discuss techniques with the written word on a forum. The obvious answer would be to visit other schools when the opportunity arises. But, with all the jealousy between the WC/WT organizations... can you really do that? I know that I would feel uncomfortable even visiting my old Si-hing across town now that our organizations have split and are even involved in legal action against each other! Honestly, I don't really get it. We live in a country of over 300 million people and the WC/WT people are at each others throats over a handful of students. So, I'm still making an effort to reach out. After work eases up a bit, I'm going to try to promote a open "Chi-sau" workout on Sundays at a local park. We'll see how that goes.
> 
> Anyway, how is it for the rest of you? Do you ever visit other schools? And if so, how are you received?


Yes I have,and I am still not real clear on how well I was received. I know that my current connections in Miami seem to be OK. But when I mentioned my former school to The EBMAS people at the seminar I wasn't really sure,I sense that there are still some animosities between the two.
Also, the question that begs to be answered (all of the infighting set aside)
is all the hammering that the art of Wing Tsun/Tzun/Chun takes,especially UFC,BJJ,as well as some of the other arts,claiming that Wing Tsun is garbage,ineffective and useless on the street.
Man, this art takes a lot of bashing,from a lot of people.If I were a little younger I would chance taking it to the ring,question is why hasn't anyone done so? Good Luck Geezer! and kudos to you on your open Chi-Sau!
The world needs more people like you,who understand the value of this Chinese treasure,and cherish the art, not just for the benefit of exploitation (ie;money,status). (dream;unify,train top notch fighters,take the world by storm!) Make sense? ...two cents....


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## KamonGuy2 (Apr 9, 2009)

As I have said before, anyone is welcome to come and watch a Kamon class at any of our schools
As long as you leave ego at the door and are genuinally interested in seeing how we train, you are always welcome. We will answer all of your questions and some things you mat disagree with but you will always get a straight and complete answer

Coming into classes to watch is free. Asking questions is free. But if you want to train we do ask that you join up (ie we can't just let people come down and train for free, even if its rolling hands for 15 minutes - if we let everyone do that, we wouldn't afford a hall etc)

But Kamon is a very friendly organisation and we have quite a few people from other wing chun federations (you can see a few on our black belts page here http://www.kamonwingchun.com/BlackBelts.aspx )

At the end of the day, people who go into other schools looking to fight and feed their egos are scum. I used to be pretty aggressive but when I'm at someone elses school, I follow their rules

I train in other arts and when I start, I start as a beginner and don't try it on. Mainly because its a dark path. There is always someone better. Reminds me of the Yip Man film and the North Chinese guy who went from school to school til he ran into Yip Man lol


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## futsaowingchun (Apr 10, 2009)

bs10927 said:


> same park?



same park.


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## qwksilver61 (Apr 10, 2009)

Would anybody here ever want to see this art in the ring? 
or do you believe it would be likened to opening Pandoras box? just a question..
I've tossed this one around in my head over and over.I know for a fact that the local MMA school over in Rockledge is seeing an increase in attendance,male female young and old(this stuff sells).
It's just a bummer to see Wing Tsun take such a bad rap.rumor is Sifu Emin is training fighters,I was told by him that he "expects much more of his fighters" which stands to reason.By the end of the seminar I was wiped out,I can only imagine what he expects of his fighters.We did however cover some ground fighting,which was new to me in the Wing Tzun system.So,I will leave it at that just a rumor,I don't want to start any fires....but it would nice to see real Wing Tsun people representing the art....in the ring.Just looking for feedback,Two cents.....


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## geezer (Apr 10, 2009)

qwksilver61 said:


> Would anybody here ever want to see this art in the ring? ...it would nice to see real Wing Tsun people representing the art....in the ring.Just looking for feedback,Two cents.....



Joe, this is a great topic for a new thread. It would be really interesting to see what "sport" WC/WT would look like. I suspect that, by necessity, it would have to evolve to fit the environment (ie "the rules") and end up looking a lot like the rest of the UFC/cage fighting, integrating some muay thai and grappling, but it would also keep some characteristic WC/WT flavor. And, it would be nice to see WC/WT get some more publicity and respect from the current generation of cage fighting fans. As long as the sport side didn't degrade the real street-fighting art. This isn't really my department though, so I'll leave it to you to start a discussion on this!


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## qwksilver61 (Apr 11, 2009)

sure thing,or maybe the administrators can boot this thread out there in thread world....hey Geezer,I see you are 2nd degree black belt now,when do you open your Dojo? can I join? (Ha!Ha!)


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## KamonGuy2 (Apr 11, 2009)

You would never ever see a wing chunner in the ring who has trained nothing else

First off the rules of these kind of sport events take out most of the wing chun moves (neck strikes, elbows, stamping palms, stamp kicks, eye strikes, etc). You would still be able to do wing chun (ie there is more to wing chun than just these techniques), but it is like saying to a boxer - spar, but you're not allowed to use jabs.

Secondly, wing chun has no ground game. It doesn't. I know Emin has come up with the whole anti grappling stuff, but that isn't wing chun and by default you would not be just using wing chun anymore

Thirdly, the long range game in wing chun is lacking. You meet your opponent from the other side of the ring, he has at least one good opportunity to present you with a powerful round kick, or a superman punch etc. I know that once you close in a chunner would be all over their opponent, but once the referee splits you up, you are back on the other side of the ring awaiting another long range attack

Fourthly, your padded gear will hinder you. I know they are only usually 4oz - 8oz gloves, but if you have ever played wing chun using them, you know it is a major hinderence

Wing chun cannot be used on it's own in the cage. Even the most purist of cage fighters (ie Royce Gracie, etc) recognised that their lack of firepower in a stand up game was hurting them
You need to work every aspect of cage fighting. There is certainly no reason that a chunner couldn't use wing chun as part of his overall cage training, but I would hate for people to start claiming that jabs and roundhouse kicks are wing chun techniques, just so that they can go into the cage and claim they are using nothing but wing chun


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## geezer (Apr 12, 2009)

Kamon Guy said:


> You would never ever see a wing chunner in the ring who has trained nothing else...



Exactly. To win in the cage, you have to use what works best under the rules. WC/WT could be a part of that, but not the whole picture.



Kamon Guy said:


> Secondly, wing chun has no ground game. It doesn't. I know Emin has come up with the whole anti grappling stuff, but that isn't wing chun and by default you would not be just using wing chun anymore



Emin's "anti-grappling" may not be Wing Chun, but it is_ Wing Tzun!_ It's his evolution of the concepts. The other WT people work some similar ideas. I'd agree with you, however, that it's _not grappling._ Grappling is what you get from years of dedicated work at something like BJJ. "Anti-grappling" is what an infighting stand-up fighter employs to try and keep the game at his best range, so he doesn't have to take to the matt and play the other guy's game. It's a valid approach, but like you said, for cage fighting you better have a ground game too! 



Kamon Guy said:


> Wing chun cannot be used on it's own in the cage. Even the most purist of cage fighters (ie Royce Gracie, etc) recognised that their lack of firepower in a stand up game was hurting them... You need to work every aspect of cage fighting.* There is certainly no reason that a chunner couldn't use wing chun as part of his overall cage training,* but I would hate for people to start claiming that jabs and roundhouse kicks are wing chun techniques, just so that they can go into the cage and claim they are using nothing but wing chun



Well put. I just agree with Qwksilver that it would be nice to see some WC/WT used effectively in the cage, and even better to have some successful fighters acknowledge it as part of their toolbox.


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## futsaowingchun (Apr 12, 2009)

qwksilver61 said:


> Would anybody here ever want to see this art in the ring?
> or do you believe it would be likened to opening Pandoras box? just a question..
> I've tossed this one around in my head over and over.I know for a fact that the local MMA school over in Rockledge is seeing an increase in attendance,male female young and old(this stuff sells).
> It's just a bummer to see Wing Tsun take such a bad rap.rumor is Sifu Emin is training fighters,I was told by him that he "expects much more of his fighters" which stands to reason.By the end of the seminar I was wiped out,I can only imagine what he expects of his fighters.We did however cover some ground fighting,which was new to me in the Wing Tzun system.So,I will leave it at that just a rumor,I don't want to start any fires....but it would nice to see real Wing Tsun people representing the art....in the ring.Just looking for feedback,Two cents.....




Wing Chun will not work well in the ring IMO. if you want it to work then its going to have to be modified to fit well with the rules,and if you do that wing chun will no longer be the same anymore.Since we have so many martial sports already why ruin another one.If WC was a spot I would not practice it.I don't believe a WC man has to go into a competion to valitadte his art.There are other ways to test his skills.For some,wanting to turn a pro fighter is fine what that is only a small few compared to most people who take up martial arts to learn how to defend themselves.


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## qwksilver61 (Apr 12, 2009)

Thanks all...for a thorough explanation.


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## KamonGuy2 (Apr 12, 2009)

futsaowingchun said:


> Wing Chun will not work well in the ring IMO. if you want it to work then its going to have to be modified to fit well with the rules,and if you do that wing chun will no longer be the same anymore.Since we have so many martial sports already why ruin another one.If WC was a spot I would not practice it.I don't believe a WC man has to go into a competion to valitadte his art.There are other ways to test his skills.For some,wanting to turn a pro fighter is fine what that is only a small few compared to most people who take up martial arts to learn how to defend themselves.


 
Exactly. I recently asked Kevin Chan why he didn't get into cage fighting, despite training several cage fighters and mixed martial artists
He said, very simply, that it would mean training six hours a day minimum, eating certain things, and generally living a hard life. 

People generally do wing chun because they want to learn how to fight well without training for most of their life

I love martial arts and I train a lot but when you are next at class, take a look round at your fellow students. Are they really the type of guys who want to step into a ring night after night trying to beat someone into unconsciousness? I for one train at Kamon alongside bankers, street cleaners, office workers, chefs, IT consultants etc. They don't have time for training more than once or twice a week! 

There are always exceptions. but generally those that have the time to train that much will train in something like boxing or BJJ or MMA


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## qwksilver61 (Apr 13, 2009)

everyone...see thread...."Wing Chun competing in the cage" I get the point. I am not trying to start trouble,but how is this thread any different? I can see there are a lot of supporters.
Great....somebody is taking the challenge! I guess we will see,I curious as to the outcome.Good luck!


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## geezer (Apr 13, 2009)

Kamon Guy said:


> People generally do wing chun because they want to learn how to fight well without training for most of their life
> 
> I love martial arts and I train a lot but when you are next at class, take a look round at your fellow students. Are they really the type of guys who want to step into a ring night after night trying to beat someone into unconsciousness? ...


 
_Kamon_, from what I've seen, you are right on the money. Really big organizations, like the EWTO may produce some good fighters, and here in the States, EBMAS might be able to train a few (except that Sifu Emin is always away on the seminar circuit). But like you said, most of the young guys that want to fight are going to go straight to an MMA gym, and seek out trainers that have MMA experience.

When Kamon said look around, _I did._ In my organization I see a mixed bag of guys ranging from their late twenties to early sixties. They are, on the whole, a pretty intelligent bunch, and are looking for a realistic yet highly efficient system of self-defense, so they _won't_ have to train eight hours a day. Once in a while you get one of the younger guys who might want to train up to try an amateur bout or two, but we never see potential pro-fighters. And since it's not what we do, _we aren't going to be seeing any!_ 

At any rate, we've all gotten pretty far off topic... so maybe I'll start a new thread so you guys can hash this out.


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