# Body Shifting and the Crescent Step



## Bill Mattocks

One of the first things we're taught in Isshin-Ryu is the crescent or 'half-moon' step.  This is basic to all forward or backward movement in our basic exercises and all of our kata.

It is said that the crescent step confers several advantages.

First, when moving forward, it shields the groin.

Second, it prevents the up-and-down head bob that signals an opponent subconsciously that you are in motion.  The step becomes a bit of a glide, which can be deceptive.

Third, it allows the feet to stay grounded.  A person punched or kicked while in the act of stepping forward in the traditional manner would have one foot in the air and would be balanced slightly forward (we walk by lifting on foot and 'falling' forward slightly).

There are more esoteric reasons given which involve chi or ki flow and things of that nature, but I'm just dealing with the mechanical nature of the claimed advantages here.

Given that Isshin-Ryu is sometimes seen as a more-brutal and less-elegant looking form of karate, it does contain a lot of emphasis (subtle, but present) on circling motions, in blocks, punches, and even snap kicks.  The crescent step is probably the most obvious circular motion in Isshin-Ryu.

So my questions are these.  How common is the crescent step outside of Isshin-Ryu?  Does your style practice it or anything like it?  Do you see any advantages to it other than those mentioned, or do you see any disadvantages to it?  I'm also interested in general comments about the crescent step in martial arts.


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## Chris Parker

Hey Bill,

I'm reading your description of a "crescent step" as one that brings your rear leg in towards your lead leg before continuing on to step past (moving inward first, then outward as it continues forward, creating a "crescent" shape on the ground), would that be correct?

If that is an accurate description, then yes, we in Ninjutsu use that as a basic form of footwork, primarily for balance and adaptability during the step itself. We do a lot of angling footwork, so if you were to simply step directly with your rear leg, you would be off balance during the entire step itself. It is also said to have it's origins in wearing armour, where you cannot afford to be off balance, as falling over in armour is not the safest thing to do.

I have encountered a number of names for it, including Suri Ashi (sliding step) and Sukui Ashi (scooping step), as well as a few others.


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## Bill Mattocks

Chris Parker said:


> Hey Bill,
> 
> I'm reading your description of a "crescent step" as one that brings your rear leg in towards your lead leg before continuing on to step past (moving inward first, then outward as it continues forward, creating a "crescent" shape on the ground), would that be correct?



Yes, that's correct.



> If that is an accurate description, then yes, we in Ninjutsu use that as a basic form of footwork, primarily for balance and adaptability during the step itself. We do a lot of angling footwork, so if you were to simply step directly with your rear leg, you would be off balance during the entire step itself. It is also said to have it's origins in wearing armour, where you cannot afford to be off balance, as falling over in armour is not the safest thing to do.
> 
> I have encountered a number of names for it, including Suri Ashi (sliding step) and Sukui Ashi (scooping step), as well as a few others.



My sensei has at times referred to the crescent step as 'hangetsu', although I realize that's the name of a kata that other karate styles use.

I have been thinking a lot about this basic step; it's literally the first thing we're taught.  We are not made to do a particular type of crescent; we typically have narrower stances than say Shotokan, and the inward crescent can be so slight as to be nearly invisible on some practitioners.  Like a basic fighting stance (kamae), each is individual; all that matters is that it is there.

It seems to me that after two years of work, the crescent step is slowly becoming natural to me in the dojo; it seemed very alien at first.  I was also thinking that it *might* help to generate power, since the slight inward crescent step turns the body ever so  slightly, which means it turns the hips slightly too.  Supposing a simple reverse punch, a step with the right foot would turn the body slightly to the left and then back again as the step completed; this in turn would have you already moving the hips to the right as you began the punch with the left fist.  Any thoughts on that, or am I imagining things?

I have thought about the adaptability of the crescent step to uneven terrain, like you would find outside the dojo.  I wonder about taking a crescent step and tripping, if the foot was kept close to the ground.  Any thoughts there?

Thanks!


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## Tez3

Chris Parker said:


> Hey Bill,
> 
> I'm reading your description of a "crescent step" as one that brings your *rear leg in towards your lead leg before continuing on to step past* *(moving inward first, then outward as it continues forward, creating a "crescent" shape on the ground*), would that be correct?
> 
> If that is an accurate description, then yes, we in Ninjutsu use that as a basic form of footwork, primarily for balance and adaptability during the step itself. We do a lot of angling footwork, so if you were to simply step directly with your rear leg, you would be off balance during the entire step itself. It is also said to have it's origins in wearing armour, where you cannot afford to be off balance, as falling over in armour is not the safest thing to do.
> 
> I have encountered a number of names for it, including Suri Ashi (sliding step) and Sukui Ashi (scooping step), as well as a few others.


 

If it's as Chris described it's common in Wado too, we knew it as Gyakuzuki. It's seen in the kata Pinan Shodan as well as others. It can be a difficult movement to make at first, it seems 'wrong' but once learnt and put with kicks and punches it's fine. I've never seen it used in sparring however..


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## Bill Mattocks

Tez3 said:


> I've never seen it used in sparring however..



I *thought* I had never seen it used in sparring until I mentioned it in my dojo.  In fact, I thought that the advanced black belts had largely abandoned it.  However, once I asked, it was pointed out to me that the very experienced students take a much shallower crescent step - so slight as to be nearly invisible to the eye if you're not looking for it.  But in our black belts, at least, it's there.  I began to see it clearly when I noticed how our advanced black belts seem to 'glide' instead of 'step' forward when punching or stepping into a block, etc.  That gliding movement is a very slight crescent, but you have to be at the right angle to see that it does curve slightly.

My crescent step is exaggerated by comparison.  I suppose it will become less pronounced in time.  It certainly did seem 'wrong' at first to me, but we use it for nearly every forward or backward stepping movement.


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## Chris Parker

Hey Bill,

Yeah, in our "stealth" methods a very similar (but much slower and far more controlled) step is used to "feel" the ground, stopping you from tripping over anything, or making untoward noise. Bigger, higher-lifting steps leave you open to the possibility of placing your foot on something unexpected, which could be loose, or at a distance (height) that you don't expect, leaving you vulnerable to slipping or tripping. The idea is that by keeping your foot close to the ground you can feel and avoid anything likely to trip you up.

Tez, not to question you, but are you sure about that name (okay, maybe question a little bit....). Gyakuzuki translates as reverse (gyaku) thrust/punch (zuki/tsuki), are you sure it isn't the term given to a punch within the kata which happens to apply this footwork? A Gyakuzuki is typically a stepping punch with your rear hand, so the footwork would make sense there....


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## rlobrecht

Bill Mattocks said:


> I was also thinking that it *might* help to generate power, since the slight inward crescent step turns the body ever so  slightly, which means it turns the hips slightly too.  Supposing a simple reverse punch, a step with the right foot would turn the body slightly to the left and then back again as the step completed; this in turn would have you already moving the hips to the right as you began the punch with the left fist.



Our Sabumnim teaches the same movement, with this as an explanation.  For the kids, he calls the movement a banana step, or banana movement.


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## Haakon

The Song Moo Kwan Tae Kwon do I first learned in the 80's stepped like that, and from looking at the videos they have today they still teach it. I don't recall it ever being called a crescent or half-moon step, but we definitely moved by bringing the back foot in towards the lead foot, then back out, keeping the head level and always in balance, never falling into the step.


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## Tez3

Chris Parker said:


> Hey Bill,
> 
> Yeah, in our "stealth" methods a very similar (but much slower and far more controlled) step is used to "feel" the ground, stopping you from tripping over anything, or making untoward noise. Bigger, higher-lifting steps leave you open to the possibility of placing your foot on something unexpected, which could be loose, or at a distance (height) that you don't expect, leaving you vulnerable to slipping or tripping. The idea is that by keeping your foot close to the ground you can feel and avoid anything likely to trip you up.
> 
> Tez, not to question you, but are you sure about that name (okay, maybe question a little bit....). Gyakuzuki translates as reverse (gyaku) thrust/punch (zuki/tsuki), are you sure it isn't the term given to a punch within the kata which happens to apply this footwork? A Gyakuzuki is typically a stepping punch with your rear hand, so the footwork would make sense there....


 

Ah now I knew someone would say that lol, yes I'm aware it's a punch but as I said, it was known to us in Wado as Gyakuzuki. In Shingo Ohgami's book 'Introduction to Karate' you will find it on page 167 with pictures.
Here's how he describe the training method.

"1. From a Junzuki stance (left)
2. Sonobade Ippon Totte, Ichi, Move your front foot slightly and have left _Gyakuzuki stance._ Punch with your right at the same time.
3. One step forward with your right and punch with your left."  

He goes on to say repeat several times, Mawatte, Gedan Barai and repeat , then Yame. Have Shizen Hontai. Naore.

It's probably a Wado thing, naming the stance for the punch.


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## jks9199

It's one of our fundamental steps.  As noted above, it's got balance advantages, it allows you to change the step in progress, and it engages various muscles and body alignments.  With more training, it becomes less obvious.  (There's strong ties between Bando and Isshin-ryu, FYI.)

It also works well on uneven ground; you can adjust on the fly, so to speak, as you encounter some sort of obstruction.  In a dojo or other clear floor, your foot barely leaves the ground in most stepping.  I describe it as moving over a floor of ball bearings or slippery ice.  But, when you move outside into the real world, your feet may have to move a bit higher, to clear small obstructions.  The real key is to be in control of your feet, whatever the surface your on may be.


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## chrispillertkd

ITF Taekwon-Do uses a crescent step when moving from very nearly all stances. It is mostly used to to be able to use knee spring when moving without flexing the knee so much that it actually causes the leg muscles to tense (which would impede speed).  

The only stance that does not use it is when you are in a rear-foot stance (that is, the dwitbal sogi, not the more common L-stance, or niunja sogi). When moving from a different stance into a rear-foot stance or from a rear-foot stance to another stance you do use a crescent step. When moving and staying in a rear-foot stance, however, you use an _outward_ crescent stepping instead of the inward motion. This allows you to drop the bodies weight to get power even though the rear-foot stance is quite short in comparison to the L-stance or walking stance. 

Pax,

Chris


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## K-man

Goju also has the step. We move forward, sanchin dachi. Reason for our use is as previously stated to avoid obstacles, especially in the dark, and also to position the foot behind an attacker's foot to facilitate a take down.


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## dancingalone

The circle step is prevalent in Okinawan Goju-ryu as well, one of the antecedent parents of Isshin-ryu.  I have heard c-stepping, crescent stepping, sanchin walking, hourglass stepping all used to name the same thing.  The stance is called sanchin dachi or sometimes hourglass stance.

It's a drill to to learn how to pull the legs tightly through the  center line using the inner thigh muscles.  This gives you the ability to move in a stable fashion off the front leg also, rather  than just pushing off the rear leg as is commonly taught.  In Goju, we also begin to learn to root and build stability structure by walking in this fashion, since it helps to teach you to hold in your gut and to roll in your center and down.

Keep in mind this is the drill.  Higher level practitioners will eventually evolve to where their c-step movement is less noticeable, even imperceptible, but the usage and posture of the muscles and body frame is still correct.  If you are doing this right, you should still be very stable even if someone catches you with one foot still off the ground.  The best test to see if someone has really internalized this movement or not is to teach them Naihanchi, even if the kata is outside their style like it would be for a Goju-ryu person.  Stand right in front of them as they perform Naihanchi and push slowly but firmly against their abdomen.  If they're easy to move back, then they need to work more on their sanchin walking.


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## Chris Parker

Tez3 said:


> Ah now I knew someone would say that lol, yes I'm aware it's a punch but as I said, it was known to us in Wado as Gyakuzuki. In Shingo Ohgami's book 'Introduction to Karate' you will find it on page 167 with pictures.
> Here's how he describe the training method.
> 
> "1. From a Junzuki stance (left)
> 2. Sonobade Ippon Totte, Ichi, Move your front foot slightly and have left _Gyakuzuki stance._ Punch with your right at the same time.
> 3. One step forward with your right and punch with your left."
> 
> He goes on to say repeat several times, Mawatte, Gedan Barai and repeat , then Yame. Have Shizen Hontai. Naore.
> 
> It's probably a Wado thing, naming the stance for the punch.


 
Hey Tez,

The way I read that is that Gyakuzuki is used as a term for the stance itself, rather than the step. That would make sense to me, by the way. Doesn't change the details, or use, though!


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## seasoned

jks9199 said:


> It's one of our fundamental steps. As noted above, it's got balance advantages, it allows you to change the step in progress, and it engages various muscles and body alignments. With more training, it becomes less obvious. (There's strong ties between Bando and Isshin-ryu, FYI.)
> 
> It also works well on uneven ground; you can adjust on the fly, so to speak, as you encounter some sort of obstruction. In a dojo or other clear floor, your foot barely leaves the ground in most stepping. I describe it as moving over a floor of ball bearings or slippery ice. But, when you move outside into the real world, your feet may have to move a bit higher, to clear small obstructions. *The real key is to be in control of your feet, whatever the surface your on may be*.


Yes, it is taught early on as a means of *controlling balance*. Also, every step forward implies a kick even if you are not kicking, it is implied. Many movements in kata are exaggerated for the feeling of the move, only to become subtle in actual application.


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## Stac3y

We use it. One of our instructors describes it as the "walking through the living room when the lights are out" walk.


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## chrispillertkd

seasoned said:


> Many movements in kata are exaggerated for the feeling of the move, only to become subtle in actual application.


 
Not to contribute too much to thread drift but how I wish more people realized this (across styles, really). 

Pax,

Chris


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## Yondanchris

in SKK (Shaolin Kenpo Karate) we use this movement a LOT, all of our forms and most of our combinations (Kempos) 
and Defensive Maneuvers are comprised of Half-Moon stance changes. I agree that over time they become more "shallow" and less rigid and tend to flow with the technique. 
Although this comes from many years and practice, just as you observed your Half-Moons being more pronounced they will become "polished" and 
fluid. The more I study the history of Kenpo the more I find it has commonalities with Okinawan Karate. 

My humble and Ignorant .02 cents, 

Chris 




Bill Mattocks said:


> I *thought* I had never seen it used in sparring until I mentioned it in my dojo. In fact, I thought that the advanced black belts had largely abandoned it. However, once I asked, it was pointed out to me that the very experienced students take a much shallower crescent step - so slight as to be nearly invisible to the eye if you're not looking for it. But in our black belts, at least, it's there. I began to see it clearly when I noticed how our advanced black belts seem to 'glide' instead of 'step' forward when punching or stepping into a block, etc. That gliding movement is a very slight crescent, but you have to be at the right angle to see that it does curve slightly.
> 
> My crescent step is exaggerated by comparison. I suppose it will become less pronounced in time. It certainly did seem 'wrong' at first to me, but we use it for nearly every forward or backward stepping movement.


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## Tez3

Chris Parker said:


> Hey Tez,
> 
> The way I read that is that Gyakuzuki is used as a term for the stance itself, rather than the step. That would make sense to me, by the way. Doesn't change the details, or use, though!


 

No it's the step too because there's no other word for the step lol, seriously we know it as Gyakazuki, the whole thing, stance, step and punch somtimes a kick too then the command is Kette Gyakazuki. This stance is only used with the punch off the back arm, not anything else. Wado has a large range of stances probably more than I've seen in any other style, it has three horse riding stances as well as stances I've seen in CMAs.

I've never used it in TSD or TKD, I suspect it may be a Japanese only thing.


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## dancingalone

Bill Mattocks said:


> I *thought* I had never seen it used in sparring until I mentioned it in my dojo.  In fact, I thought that the advanced black belts had largely abandoned it.  However, once I asked, it was pointed out to me that the very experienced students take a much shallower crescent step - so slight as to be nearly invisible to the eye if you're not looking for it.  But in our black belts, at least, it's there.  I began to see it clearly when I noticed how our advanced black belts seem to 'glide' instead of 'step' forward when punching or stepping into a block, etc.  That gliding movement is a very slight crescent, but you have to be at the right angle to see that it does curve slightly.
> 
> My crescent step is exaggerated by comparison.  I suppose it will become less pronounced in time.  It certainly did seem 'wrong' at first to me, but we use it for nearly every forward or backward stepping movement.



This is probably fairly obvious information, but the tucked pelvic and abdominal positions eventually should stay with you with few exceptions no matter what stance you are in, even if you find yourself in a side stance.  In my system, this is the key to being stable and strong.


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## Laus

Goju Ryu uses that step. The principle of bringing the feet together applies in all steps inculdign turns, not just backeard and forward movement, so it doesn't always make a crescent.

I'm studying Kyokushin these days which does not use this (so far anyways), and the linear stepping feels incredibly awkward to me after 7 years of half circles! I'll get it eventually....


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## seasoned

chrispillertkd said:


> Not to contribute too much to thread drift but how I wish more people realized this (across styles, really).
> 
> Pax,
> 
> Chris


Thanks for the input, Chris. Those that except kata see, those that don't, don't......... Not to add to much to the thread drift that Chris has added to.


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## teekin

Soooo that's what it's called. I was taught this in Judo kata ( yup, old fashioned instructor has us learn Judo kata) as "Walking on Rice Paper" . It reminded me of an Uber slow motion fencing attack step that allows you to either move foreward, halt or retreat at any point in the step. 
( My old fencing instructor was from France if that means anything.)
 Honestly I think this follows the  "Form to Function" rule evident in physics and Darwinian evolution. There are likely only a very few super effecient ways to advance the human frame while staying in ballance. Different names for the same motion.

Lori


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## MattJ

I was taught the crescent step way back in EPAK (anyone remember the box-step exercise? LOL). It can be useful in close quarters, but very inefficient at longer ranges, IMHO. I don't believe it has any mechanical adavantages over regular, linear stepping (head-bobbing and the like are poor form no matter what type of maneuver).


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## Bill Mattocks

dancingalone said:


> This is probably fairly obvious information, but the tucked pelvic and abdominal positions eventually should stay with you with few exceptions no matter what stance you are in, even if you find yourself in a side stance.  In my system, this is the key to being stable and strong.



Yes, we do practice the tucked pelvis in everything.  It's most obvious in Sanchin in my dojo, but we also do not over-emphasize it.  Sensei gets a little animated when he talks about karateka from other schools who do a pelvic thrust when settling into the sanchin-dachi stance.  He says it is most definitely not a 'flip'.  He says people do that to emphasize to those watching the kata that they are tucking their pelvis, but that if they do that, it's too much.

When we do Sanchin, we do both the Goju-Ryu and the Isshin-Ryu style, interchangeably (in my dojo).  In both cases, we root our feet into the mat, tuck the pelvis, and breathe from the 'hara'.  So not only are we practicing the crescent step in Sanchin, but also the pelvic tuck, hara breathing, and the principle of dynamic tension.  In our dojo, FYI, we teach Sanchin as the first kata, not the last, as it is taught in many Isshin-Ryu dojos.


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## dancingalone

Sounds like your dojo is one that I would enjoy visiting, Bill.  You are fortunate to have found good instruction - did you seek it out with some effort, or was this lucky happenstance?


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## Bill Mattocks

dancingalone said:


> Sounds like your dojo is one that I would enjoy visiting, Bill.  You are fortunate to have found good instruction - did you seek it out with some effort, or was this lucky happenstance?



It was LUCK!

I happened to find myself in an apartment in Waterford, Michigan and looked around for an Isshin-Ryu dojo close by.  As it turns out, there were two, both highly-regarded.  I looked for Isshin-Ryu only because as a Marine, I was stationed on Okinawa and worked with Master Angi Uezu back in the 1980's.  I did not study karate at that time (pity), but I knew what Isshin-Ryu was.

http://hollowaysisshinryu.com/instructors/

My Sensei is amazing.  I know everybody says that, but I can't tell you how fortunate I feel to have found this dojo.  It truly does feel like an extension of my family to be there.  He insists on our best effort, and he is well-qualified to teach the best, most authentic, Isshin-Ryu that can be found outside of Okinawa.

My other sensei are amazing as well. One is a demon for basics and kata.  One is amazing with self-defense and practical training (even using moves taken from other arts) and another is a 'Bunkai Man' who can show you ten or fifteen different realistic self-defense moves that can be found inside the kata we do.

Our dojo does not make any money.  Sensei does not draw a salary from it, but he's there constantly when he is not doing his 'day job' (and pursuing his PhD at the same time)!  No one at the dojo draws a salary; but all black belts are expected to teach some; some teach more.  They do it from a love of Isshin-Ryu.  How much better can it get?

Yeah, my dojo is the real deal.  I can't speak for other dojos, but I feel incredibly fortunate to have found this one.  I would wish everyone a dojo like mine, and instructors like I have been blessed with.


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## dancingalone

Bill Mattocks said:


> Ihe is well-qualified to teach the best, most authentic, Isshin-Ryu that can be found outside of Okinawa.



Some would say the best Isshinryu *IS* found *OUTSIDE* of Okinawa.  I'm not sure I disagree.


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## K-man

MattJ said:


> I was taught the crescent step way back in EPAK (anyone remember the box-step exercise? LOL). It can be useful in close quarters, but very inefficient at longer ranges, IMHO. I don't believe it has any mechanical adavantages over regular, linear stepping (head-bobbing and the like are poor form no matter what type of maneuver).


Depending on definition the crescent step has NO application at distance. It is a close in stance because karate is a close in fighting system. At training last night we were using the step to trap our opponent's foot to assist in takedowns. 
At greater distance, one to two metres, we would use _moto dachi_ which is a more natural fighting stance a bit like _hanmi_ is to aikido, but wider and straighter.
I'm not sure if you are suggesting that head bobbing is produced by using a crescent step, but IMO head bobbing is totally wrong in any step. To me, a bobbing head would indicate an unstable stance. :asian:


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## seasoned

Bill Mattocks said:


> It was LUCK!
> 
> I happened to find myself in an apartment in Waterford, Michigan and looked around for an Isshin-Ryu dojo close by. As it turns out, there were two, both highly-regarded. I looked for Isshin-Ryu only because as a Marine, I was stationed on Okinawa and worked with Master Angi Uezu back in the 1980's. I did not study karate at that time (pity), but I knew what Isshin-Ryu was.
> 
> http://hollowaysisshinryu.com/instructors/
> 
> My Sensei is amazing. I know everybody says that, but I can't tell you how fortunate I feel to have found this dojo. It truly does feel like an extension of my family to be there. He insists on our best effort, and he is well-qualified to teach the best, most authentic, Isshin-Ryu that can be found outside of Okinawa.
> 
> My other sensei are amazing as well. One is a demon for basics and kata. One is amazing with self-defense and practical training (even using moves taken from other arts) and another is a 'Bunkai Man' who can show you ten or fifteen different realistic self-defense moves that can be found inside the kata we do.
> 
> Our dojo does not make any money. Sensei does not draw a salary from it, but he's there constantly when he is not doing his 'day job' (and pursuing his PhD at the same time)! No one at the dojo draws a salary; but all black belts are expected to teach some; some teach more. They do it from a love of Isshin-Ryu. How much better can it get?
> 
> Yeah, my dojo is the real deal. I can't speak for other dojos, but I feel incredibly fortunate to have found this one. I would wish everyone a dojo like mine, and instructors like I have been blessed with.


This sounds like all the makings of a sound, ideal learning experience. A sensei that has a heart for the art, and a student that has a heart for absorbing. My kind of dojo.


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## Blade96

Very common in shotokan karate (we use it all the time every class every step)


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## MattJ

K-man said:


> Depending on definition the crescent step has NO application at distance. It is a close in stance because karate is a close in fighting system. At training last night we were using the step to trap our opponent's foot to assist in takedowns.
> At greater distance, one to two metres, we would use _moto dachi_ which is a more natural fighting stance a bit like _hanmi_ is to aikido, but wider and straighter.
> I'm not sure if you are suggesting that head bobbing is produced by using a crescent step, but IMO head bobbing is totally wrong in any step. To me, a bobbing head would indicate an unstable stance. :asian:


 

 That is pretty much re-stating what I wrote.


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## Tez3

Blade96 said:


> Very common in shotokan karate (we use it all the time every class *every step*)


 

Do you use it for Junzuki then as well? What do you use for knife hand, we use front view cat stance.. Mashomen No Nekoashi. Have loads of other stances as well for other techniques.


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## K-man

MattJ said:


> I was taught the crescent step way back in EPAK (anyone remember the box-step exercise? LOL). It can be useful in close quarters, but very inefficient at longer ranges, IMHO. I don't believe it has any mechanical adavantages over regular, linear stepping (head-bobbing and the like are poor form no matter what type of maneuver).


Sorry, I didn't mean to plagiarise. I was reinforcing your observation that sanchin dachi is effective at short range if it is used for the purpose for which it is designed. If it is not used to tie up your opponent's feet then there are possibly better stances for grappling and it has no application at a distance. I misread your reference to the head bobbing. I thought it was saying that stepping in sanchin _caused_ head bobbing. Sorry my error! :asian:


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## Blade96

Tez3 said:


> Do you use it for Junzuki then as well? What do you use for knife hand, we use front view cat stance.. Mashomen No Nekoashi. Have loads of other stances as well for other techniques.



im not sure junzuki, not familiar with the term (its not on our glossary vocab page on our association's website that and im just a little yellow belt, so i dont know everything yet)

I do know though crescent steps is what shotokan senseis teach you when you're just a little white belt.

as for knife hands, do u mean a knife hand block or a knife hand strike or a spear hand strike.....?


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## Tez3

Blade96 said:


> im not sure junzuki, not familiar with the term (its not on our glossary vocab page on our association's website that and im just a little yellow belt, so i dont know everything yet)
> 
> I do know though crescent steps is what shotokan senseis teach you when you're just a little white belt.
> 
> as for knife hands, do u mean a knife hand block or a knife hand strike or a spear hand strike.....?


 
Either a knife hand strike or a block. Spear hand is done in Junzuki stance usually. I know Shotokan is the same as Wado in these.
 Junzuki is the very basic front stance/punch, it's been in the first grading of all the styles I know. First thing to learn usually, depending on style the stance can be long or short but the stance and punch are the same. The 'crescent steps' are usually taught a bit later I've found.


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## Tez3

If you go on You Tube you'll find the differences between the styles and also good demos of Junzuki.


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## Bill Mattocks

Tez3 said:


> If you go on You Tube you'll find the differences between the styles and also good demos of Junzuki.



It looks like _Junzuki_ is what we (Isshin-Ryu) call a lunge punch, or _Seiken oi Tsuki_.  We begin from hands-on-hips (or a basic Kamae stance with hands at the sides naturally for colored belts).  Shifting the body, we perform the crescent step, and bring up the hand over the leading foot to the obi, and strike to the solar plexus of the opponent with a vertical fist.  We use the other hand drawing back in what could be an elbow strike to the rear to cause the hips to twist and power to be generated.  We don't leave the fist hanging out there, we return the body to a neutral position, which retracts the fist to a guard position.  This is our first lower-body exercise, taught to newcomers immediately.


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## Tez3

Bill Mattocks said:


> It looks like _Junzuki_ is what we (Isshin-Ryu) call a lunge punch, or _Seiken oi Tsuki_. We begin from hands-on-hips (or a basic Kamae stance with hands at the sides naturally for colored belts). Shifting the body, we perform the crescent step, and bring up the hand over the leading foot to the obi, and strike to the solar plexus of the opponent with a vertical fist. We use the other hand drawing back in what could be an elbow strike to the rear to cause the hips to twist and power to be generated. We don't leave the fist hanging out there, we return the body to a neutral position, which retracts the fist to a guard position. This is our first lower-body exercise, taught to newcomers immediately.


 
It's the most basic punch and stance I think there is, I know it's in Shotokan and I checked several Shotokan syllabuses and it's there for 10th and 9th Kyu gradings. It's the one that most non martial arts people associate with karate, whatever the style. I've done it in TKD and we do it in TSD.
The most basic way of doing it is from 'ready stance', left leg goes forward knee bent, left arm punches, back leg locked straight, right hand in fist at hip/belt. There's a shoulder width between the two legs. There's variations of course. As you say, you pull the punching arm back, some styles leave it there. Shotokan and TSD have a deep stance, Wado a shorter one, in all when moving forward the foot moves straight, no 'crescent' step. In Shotokan the foot is slid across the floor, in Wado it's skimmed across the floor (this causes my instructor and I to disagree lol, he's Shotokan, I'm Wado) Often there's a kiai every punch(often seen in films where they want to show a dojo, the students all doing line work). There's a few other differences but they are minor, in TSD the fist of non punching hand is usally kept a bit higher than belt/hip height though we don't.
When we do what you call the crescent step the punch is always off the opposite arm from the leading leg. The punch is usually Chudan but we can do it low then it's called Gykazuki No Tsukkomi. Gykazuki Kette No Tsukkomi is quite difficult to do.



Junzuki though is the beginners first stance and punch, almost the building block of karate.


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## Bill Mattocks

Tez3 said:


> It's the most basic punch and stance I think there is, I know it's in Shotokan and I checked several Shotokan syllabuses and it's there for 10th and 9th Kyu gradings. It's the one that most non martial arts people associate with karate, whatever the style. I've done it in TKD and we do it in TSD.
> The most basic way of doing it is from 'ready stance', left leg goes forward knee bent, left arm punches, back leg locked straight, right hand in fist at hip/belt. There's a shoulder width between the two legs. There's variations of course. As you say, you pull the punching arm back, some styles leave it there. Shotokan and TSD have a deep stance, Wado a shorter one, in all when moving forward the foot moves straight, no 'crescent' step. In Shotokan the foot is slid across the floor, in Wado it's skimmed across the floor (this causes my instructor and I to disagree lol, he's Shotokan, I'm Wado) Often there's a kiai every punch(often seen in films where they want to show a dojo, the students all doing line work). There's a few other differences but they are minor, in TSD the fist of non punching hand is usally kept a bit higher than belt/hip height though we don't.
> When we do what you call the crescent step the punch is always off the opposite arm from the leading leg. The punch is usually Chudan but we can do it low then it's called Gykazuki No Tsukkomi. Gykazuki Kette No Tsukkomi is quite difficult to do.
> 
> 
> 
> Junzuki though is the beginners first stance and punch, almost the building block of karate.



We do the crescent step when we do the lunge punch.  Of course, we do use the Isshin-Ryu vertical fist.  Our step is not as deep as Wado or Shotokan; we do heel-toe.  So the foot we step out on, that heel is within an inch of the toe of the trailing foot if you were to draw a line across them.  About shoulder-width apart.  We also keep both legs bent, not just the front leg.  Posture is upright, but we 'sink down' into our punch.

For us, the word _'chudan'_ refers to middle-body, and we use it in terms of a block; a _'chudan uke'_ is a middle-body block, the fist level with the shoulder when it stops.  We cross the center line when we block in this manner, so we can block a punch from either side with the same block using the same hand; it either turns the opponent in or out depending on which side they throw from.

The knife-hand is similar to the chudan uke, but it has the block done with an open hand, palm out, instead of a fist, and instead of a reverse punch, we throw an open spear hand.  We call this _'tegata barai nukite'_.

All of these; seiken oi tsuki, chudan uke, and tegata barai nukite, are done with the same crescent step and footwork in our basic exercises.  We have a total of 15 upper-body exercises and 8 kicks.  Once these are basically understood, we move students on to kata.  We start with Sanchin.


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## Tez3

Chuden is the word for mid body for us, Jodan is higher and Gedan lower on the body. We also have nukite plus shuto and haito plus hiraken which I quite like using.

For knife hands we use a cat stance, for blocks mostly a back stance. We do have a short 'front' stance, either migishizentai or hidarishizentai, a stance often used in Aikido and Kendo. And we have a Sanchin stance! (Sanchin Dachi) as well as a couple of Seishan Dachi.
There's 13 kicks without the jumping ones, 15 blocks, 5 natural stances, 11 uneven stances, 6 even and 5 other stances. 15 'fist' strikes, 6 body movements such as junzuki and gyakuzuki. Sounds a lot on paper but every one just about is very useful. Gives me an edge over the MMA guys sometimes, especially the kicks and the backfist.


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## Bill Mattocks

Tez3 said:


> Chuden is the word for mid body for us, Jodan is higher and Gedan lower on the body. We also have nukite plus shuto and haito plus hiraken which I quite like using.



Same for us, but we use the words Jodan, Chuden, and Gedan mostly with reference to blocks.  We do call our uppercut 'jodan oi tsuki' (lunge punch uppercut) and 'jodan geaku tsuki' (reverse uppercut).



> For knife hands we use a cat stance, for blocks mostly a back stance. We do have a short 'front' stance, either migishizentai or hidarishizentai, a stance often used in Aikido and Kendo. And we have a Sanchin stance! (Sanchin Dachi) as well as a couple of Seishan Dachi.



We have no cat stance at all.  Our stances are primarily seisan dachi, seunchin dachi, sanchin dachi, and naihanchi dachi.  There are others, but those are the main ones.



> There's 13 kicks without the jumping ones, 15 blocks, 5 natural stances, 11 uneven stances, 6 even and 5 other stances. 15 'fist' strikes, 6 body movements such as junzuki and gyakuzuki. Sounds a lot on paper but every one just about is very useful. Gives me an edge over the MMA guys sometimes, especially the kicks and the backfist.



We have 8 kicks, no jumping kicks except one double-kick used inside the Chinto kata.  Blocks and punches are varied, I don't know how many there are of each.  Hand strikes include the punch, the spear (nukite), the haito, the shuto, and palm (shotei). We also have a backfist, we call it 'uraken', and a hammer fist (tetsui). There are also some one-knuckle and two-knuckle punches, I believe, but I haven't seen those yet.

We curl our toes up when we kick, and we generally kick below the obi, and we use a chambered snapping motion when we kick.  Some think we snap-kick and make a glancing blow, but we go for penetration; we just don't leave the leg hanging out there, just like we don't leave the fist out there on a punch.  We kick with the instep, the ball of the foot (koshi), the heel (kakato) and in the dojo, we also kick with the shin, although that's not Isshin-Ryu, strictly speaking.

We also hit with the elbow and the knees.  The elbow has two hitting surfaces we use, the empi and the hiji.

I haven't yet sparred with anyone from another discipline, but we have some karateka in the dojo who have been trained in other styles.  We do train using methods that are not our own from time to time, such as the inner hook kick, which is not in Isshin-Ryu, but is bloody effective when done right (I lack the flexibility to do it right).


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## Tez3

Sounds all good! My complaint about TSD is it is lacking a great many of the techniques we both know, it seems to be a simplified (a childs version even) version of karate. There is no 'crescent step' as you call it at all, and far fewer techniques. I wish I had been able to stay with Wado with it's depth, I know TSd people will now all hate me but I can't help it. Plus TSD is claimed to have been going for a thousand years in Korea.

I like Wados ( and yours) versatility,TSD doesn't even seem to have an elbow attack ( according to the books I have and have been taught) even though it's in the patterns. I shouldn't moan I suppose about the style I do but it's frustrating. Luckily though we don't belong to any organisation now so I will teach all and any techniques that are useful and some of our students will go on to Wado and Shotokan schools in the future. It keeps me going on my Wado, my instructor has a good friend who is also a Wado 5th Dan who comes along every so often to keep me right. Our katas now have taken on a more Shotokan/Wado feel too. We haven't changed the moves just do them with more 'beef' you could call it I suppose.

My instructor is very fond of two knuckle punches, when he punches in fact he always has two knuckles higher, thats not just in the class, he uses them 'outside' lol. We kick with the shin too but that comes from Muay Thai rather than karate, in Wado we use all the kicking surfaces you mention. We don't snap our kicks, other than front snap kick lol we do them 'heavy' (and this is where I can't explain things well again), do you know heavy hands? If so it's like that, still fast but they come in heavy and stop on target for a couple of seconds then back. It feels like a mule kicked. I've heard it described as kinetic kicking but have no idea what it means lol. I do know it hurts... alot!


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## dancingalone

Tez3 said:


> Sounds all good! My complaint about TSD is it is lacking a great many of the techniques we both know, it seems to be a simplified (a childs version even) version of karate. There is no 'crescent step' as you call it at all, and far fewer techniques.



TSD is Korean Shotokan karate, so it should have all the same techs Shotokan people use.  It's a matter of practicing them, which granted many TSD schools neglect the hand strikes in favor of fanciful kicking.  TSD does have a wider variety of kicks in its arsenal than most karate schools which may or may not be a plus.



Tez3 said:


> I wish I had been able to stay with Wado with it's depth, I know TSd people will now all hate me but I can't help it. Plus TSD is claimed to have been going for a thousand years in Korea.



No Wado in your town?  



Tez3 said:


> I like Wados ( and yours) versatility,TSD doesn't even seem to have an elbow attack ( according to the books I have and have been taught) even though it's in the patterns.



TSD has elbows.  It's right there in Pinan Yodan/Pyung Ahn Sa Dan.  It's just a matter of what the instructor chooses to teach and practice.



Tez3 said:


> I shouldn't moan I suppose about the style I do but it's frustrating. Luckily though we don't belong to any organisation now so I will teach all and any techniques that are useful and some of our students will go on to Wado and Shotokan schools in the future. It keeps me going on my Wado, my instructor has a good friend who is also a Wado 5th Dan who comes along every so often to keep me right. Our katas now have taken on a more Shotokan/Wado feel too. We haven't changed the moves just do them with more 'beef' you could call it I suppose.



Sounds like you are encountering some style drift and even fostering it directly.  Not necessarily a bad thing, unless you have some organization standard to adhere to.



Tez3 said:


> We don't snap our kicks, other than front snap kick lol we do them 'heavy' (and this is where I can't explain things well again), do you know heavy hands? If so it's like that, still fast but they come in heavy and stop on target for a couple of seconds then back. It feels like a mule kicked. I've heard it described as kinetic kicking but have no idea what it means lol. I do know it hurts... alot!



So you employ thrust kicks instead of snap kicks.


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## Bill Mattocks

Tez3 said:


> Sounds all good! My complaint about TSD is it is lacking a great many of the techniques we both know, it seems to be a simplified (a childs version even) version of karate. There is no 'crescent step' as you call it at all, and far fewer techniques. I wish I had been able to stay with Wado with it's depth, I know TSd people will now all hate me but I can't help it. Plus TSD is claimed to have been going for a thousand years in Korea.
> 
> I like Wados ( and yours) versatility,TSD doesn't even seem to have an elbow attack ( according to the books I have and have been taught) even though it's in the patterns. I shouldn't moan I suppose about the style I do but it's frustrating. Luckily though we don't belong to any organisation now so I will teach all and any techniques that are useful and some of our students will go on to Wado and Shotokan schools in the future. It keeps me going on my Wado, my instructor has a good friend who is also a Wado 5th Dan who comes along every so often to keep me right. Our katas now have taken on a more Shotokan/Wado feel too. We haven't changed the moves just do them with more 'beef' you could call it I suppose.
> 
> My instructor is very fond of two knuckle punches, when he punches in fact he always has two knuckles higher, thats not just in the class, he uses them 'outside' lol. We kick with the shin too but that comes from Muay Thai rather than karate, in Wado we use all the kicking surfaces you mention. We don't snap our kicks, other than front snap kick lol we do them 'heavy' (and this is where I can't explain things well again), do you know heavy hands? If so it's like that, still fast but they come in heavy and stop on target for a couple of seconds then back. It feels like a mule kicked. I've heard it described as kinetic kicking but have no idea what it means lol. I do know it hurts... alot!



The TKD guys we have in our class have speed, flexibility, and a lot of very fast high kicks; I have to say they're impressive.  I honestly do not have the background or experience to say anything negative about TKD, TSD, etc.

I started training in Wado in Lakewood, Colorado back in the late 1980's, but I only did it for a couple months; didn't earn any belts.  I don't recall any of it, unfortunately, except the cat stance (which we don't use) and the horse stance, which is similar to our seuchin dachi, but deeper than ours.

We do practice a kick such as you mention, but it's not part of Isshin-Ryu as I understand it.  Sensei calls it 'dead-leg' and for example, we'll do a roundhouse type kick and really lay the leg down on the bag (we can't really kick each other with this kick, it's way too strong).  It's like swinging an ax into a tree, it really sinks in.  You can feel the power behind it.  However, the argument is that it's a risk; if it doesn't disable, it can be caught or trapped.

With our vertical punch, the wrist is held straight so that the back of the hand is level with the arm.  The thumb goes on top of the fist, which is unusual for Okinawan-style karate.  It rests on the second knuckle of the index finger.  The fist is angled downwards, but only slightly; I've seen Youtube video of Isshin-Ryu practitioners that angles the fist down way too much.  The goal is that the top two knuckles will impact the opponent.  Our 'vertical fist' isn't truly vertical; it's canted a tiny bit, so it's more like 10 o'clock if you know what I mean.  We do not use a torquing punch except in Sanchin, which we do Goju-Ryu style (we also have a vertical punch Isshin-Ryu version of Sanchin).

When I mentioned the shinbone kick, yes, that's also not Isshin-Ryu; I think we got it from Muay Thai like you.

Our blocks differ from Shotokan a bit.  We block with the 'meaty' part of the arm on jodan type blocks.  For example, our exercise 'jodan uke, seiken tsuki' is a head block followed by a reverse punch.  The block consists of stepping forward (or back as necessary), and blocking with the arm over the leading leg.  The arm crosses the center line and then rises with force, with the hand in a fist and the palm facing inwards towards the face of the person throwing it.  In other words, we can see the inside of our own hand, not the back of our own hand.  The elbow comes up to about eye-high.  We don't lean into the block, we wait for the punch to come to us.  We also practice 'rooting' ourselves into the block so that the power of the opponent's punch isn't being absorbed by our arms.

I've tried blocking the other way, and it really hurts when the person's fist or arm comes crashing down on your arm.  I like the 'meat' block better!  We also have an upper body block with the open hand which can be either a chop block or it can be turned into a deflect-and-grab, which is sweet.  Throw the open hand up, turning the hand from inside to outside as it rises, deflect the incoming arm upwards, continue to turn the hand, grab the arm, and pull it down hard to the obi, while launching the fist from the opposite side.  By turning their power into your own rotational power, they are actually fueling the power in your punch while at the same time you're pulling their face do to meet your punch; fantastic!

I would love to get together with practitioners of other styles sometimes to just compare and spar a bit and practice different things and see what works and what doesn't (for me, I realize some people are better suited to different styles).  Fortunately, my dojo doesn't claim to be the one true karate, etc.  We do Isshin-Ryu and we like it, but we see other styles as full of good stuff too.


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## Tez3

There's only us, a JKD school and a TKD class around us, we are in the middle of the Dales so everything is miles away, for example our nearest hospital is nearly 20 miles away.
The TSD we do was taught by an instructor who I suspect changed a lot of things in it, there's moves in the patterns in the books I have that he's changed. I've seen the elbows in the patterns but there were never done in practice. In the books I have there aren't as many techniques as that found in Shotokan or Wado though. Wado definitely has more kicks, I've been comparing them.
Only the children's class does TSD and we teach them all sorts of things from other styles anyway as they will leave us at some point to go to other clubs and styles so the more they know the better, helps them fit in at their new places. It's hard enough for them moving all the time anyway, new schools, new friends etc so things they recognise in martial arts helps them felt more comfortable in their new clubs. it's a compromise as far as martial arts are concerned but it suits the children. It's also the main reason the adults do MMA, we can take students of all styles that way for the length of time they are in the area.

 If we were a civilian club I'd have to think very seriously about continuing with TSD _as taught to us_, I'd have to look for something deeper than we have. We don't belong to any organisation other than a group with whom we are insured but it has nothing to do with gradings, ranks etc. I've been going to a JKD class once a week, enjoying being just a student, a lot of it is familiar from Wado funnily enough.


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## dancingalone

Tez3 said:


> The TSD we do was taught by an instructor who I suspect changed a lot of things in it, there's moves in the patterns in the books I have that he's changed. I've seen the elbows in the patterns but there were never done in practice.



A common complaint.  It's a shame when your patterns don't match up with your basics or your sparring and self-defense.  Ideally, they should all be integrated.



Tez3 said:


> In the books I have there aren't as many techniques as that found in Shotokan or Wado though.



Depends on the books we're looking at, I suppose.  I have a huge MA book collection of varying styles and arts.  If you look at any of the comprehensive tomes like Richard Bryne's TSD book, etc, you'll see that TSD claims as many techniques as any other karate-based art.  Granted most studios never practice the more esoteric methods, like crane blocks, but they are there.



Tez3 said:


> Wado definitely has more kicks, I've been comparing them.



Not that it really matters, but your experience is different from mine.  Wado-ryu is particularly strong in the US in the southeastern part of the country, and this branch of Wado certainly does not practice the various spinning and jumping kicks so universal across taekwondo or tang soo do.  Fancy kicks for them are the spinning back kick and the common flying sidekick.  To me this makes sense.  They have the jujutsu-derived portion of the system to practice, so they don't have time nor inclination to work on material perhaps antithetical to their core art principles.



Tez3 said:


> If we were a civilian club I'd have to think very seriously about continuing with TSD _as taught to us_, I'd have to look for something deeper than we have. We don't belong to any organisation other than a group with whom we are insured but it has nothing to do with gradings, ranks etc. I've been going to a JKD class once a week, enjoying being just a student, a lot of it is familiar from Wado funnily enough.



There's a man near me that teaches TSD blended with BJJ and Judo.  I think his curriculum is pretty darn good.  He intentionally sought out ways to cover the gaps in the TSD he had been taught himself.


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## dancingalone

Bill Mattocks said:


> I've tried blocking the other way, and it really hurts when the person's fist or arm comes crashing down on your arm.  I like the 'meat' block better!



This is where that body conditioning comes in.  Kotekitae, perhaps a dirty word to some.  When I was coming up through the ranks, I often lined up with one of my seniors who was much beefier and stronger than me because I knew he could make me quit the exercise within 5 minutes with bruises up and down my arms.  Over time I developed the same hardness and I can now make other people wince in pain when I catch with them a block.

I believe there are good points to both types of blocking.  Isshinryu type blocking is probably safer in general for the body and it might be slightly quicker and more efficient as a stoppage manuever.  On the other hand, the block with the blade of the arm is more advantageous if you are working tuite or kyusho applications IMO.



Bill Mattocks said:


> I would love to get together with practitioners of other styles sometimes to just compare and spar a bit and practice different things and see what works and what doesn't (for me, I realize some people are better suited to different styles).  Fortunately, my dojo doesn't claim to be the one true karate, etc.  We do Isshin-Ryu and we like it, but we see other styles as full of good stuff too.



Indeed.  I also enjoy working out with karate-ka from a variety of styles.  Goju-ryu and Isshin-ryu people can often share bunkai as well due to the overlap in their curricula.


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## Tez3

dancingalone said:


> A common complaint. It's a shame when your patterns don't match up with your basics or your sparring and self-defense. Ideally, they should all be integrated.
> 
> I know, it's one reason I train with Iain Abernethy whenever it's possible. It's real 'joined up' karate then.
> 
> 
> 
> Depends on the books we're looking at, I suppose. I have a huge MA book collection of varying styles and arts. If you look at any of the comprehensive tomes like Richard Bryne's TSD book, etc, you'll see that TSD claims as many techniques as any other karate-based art. Granted most studios never practice the more esoteric methods, like crane blocks, but they are there.
> 
> The one we work from is Grand Master Kang Uk Lee's 'Ultimate guide to Tang Soo Do', I can't do crane...it would break my nails rofl.
> 
> 
> 
> Not that it really matters, but your experience is different from mine. Wado-ryu is particularly strong in the US in the southeastern part of the country, and this branch of Wado certainly does not practice the various spinning and jumping kicks so universal across taekwondo or tang soo do. Fancy kicks for them are the spinning back kick and the common flying sidekick. To me this makes sense. They have the jujutsu-derived portion of the system to practice, so they don't have time nor inclination to work on material perhaps antithetical to their core art principles.
> 
> Isn't it strange how the same style will vary from place to place! In Wado we definitely have a lot of kicks, we do them off both leading and back leg, jumping and spinning as well as scissors. As well as hop and slide steps before a kick to gain distance. If you can find Shingo Ohgami's book 'Introduction to karate' you'll see all the kicks we did/I do.
> 
> 
> There's a man near me that teaches TSD blended with BJJ and Judo. I think his curriculum is pretty darn good. He intentionally sought out ways to cover the gaps in the TSD he had been taught himself.


 
Sounds like he has it sorted, a good stand up with good groundwork of which some is in the patterns/kata makes you well rounded I've found.


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## dancingalone

Tez3 said:


> In Wado we definitely have a lot of kicks, we do them  off both leading and back leg, jumping and spinning as well as  scissors. As well as hop and slide steps before a kick to gain distance.  If you can find Shingo Ohgami's book 'Introduction to karate' you'll  see all the kicks we did/I do.



I have his kata book, but not 'Introduction to Karate'.  Looks like it is in print and available from Amazon.  Whoo-Hoo!  I'll get a copy sooner or later.

As for the kicks, the Wado I've seen in person does practice the step up and step through variations of the usual front, roundhouse, and side kicks.  What they don't do typically are jump spinning hook kicks, double tornado kicks, flying back wheel kicks, reverse roundhouse kicks, etc.  There are examples of kicks I would say aren't in Wado yet many (most?) TSD studios practice them to an extent, particular at the red belt or higher level.


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## Tez3

dancingalone said:


> I have his kata book, but not 'Introduction to Karate'. Looks like it is in print and available from Amazon. Whoo-Hoo! I'll get a copy sooner or later.
> 
> As for the kicks, the Wado I've seen in person does practice the step up and step through variations of the usual front, roundhouse, and side kicks. What they don't do typically are jump spinning hook kicks, double tornado kicks, flying back wheel kicks, reverse roundhouse kicks, etc. There are examples of kicks I would say aren't in Wado yet many (most?) TSD studios practice them to an extent, particular at the red belt or higher level.


 
I know how to do the jump spinning hook kick, I won't say I can do them together anymore (can do the spin* or* the jump lol) other than a very poor attempt these days, others in my Wado class ( the younger ones lol) did them, they also did the others though as I'm not sure what the tornado kick actually is I'm not sure about that one. We also had the double front kick, I can do it to knee height lol but others did it properly a la Van Damme! As you progressed throught the gradings, the jumping spinning kicks became more common. I didn't see them used though in the TSD classes I went to, they focussed mostly on patterns without Bunkai which is a grevious sin in my eyes LOL. They sparred a little and once I was paired with a blue belt who tried to smack me around as I was yellow then in TSD, didn't work and I had to explain I was a Dan grade in another style, he went off in a huff at misleading him but I wouldn't wear a belt gained in another style, to me that was dishonest.

I have the kata book also, it's a bit of a bible to me. The 'intro to karate' shows the author's scientific background because it has equations I will never understand in it, he has a study of Tsuki ( punch) which goes on for a few pages. I quote

"_ let us look at Tsuki from the aspect of dynamics. This discussion is important because one can apply it to other karate techniques such as different hand techniques, blocks or even kicks. An effective punch, that is to say, a destructive punch is a punch with high energetic possiblilty in the sense of dynamics"_


So far so good then
"_According to basics physics the energy equation is_
_E=mgh+1/2mv..........."_  there's equations, diagrams and all sorts at one point he says_ "for easier understanding let us consider simple acceleration. v=a .  a=acceleration, t= time, so v is a function of acceleration (a). Furthermore...."_

Er *not* furthermore, I was lost at the first sentence. However the photos I can understand and when he's not doing the science stuff he explains very well things like relaxation and weight shifting and Kime. The list of things to think about and do while practising punching that follows the science is very good.

He does the same with the kicks and to a lesser extent the blocks. On page 168 he has photos, diagrams and the explanation of the rear foot in Gyakuzuki, the previous two pages are explaining how to do it. He says its better to bring the rear foot forward in an inward circular direction to utilise the twisting of the body effectively. The book contains far more explanations than I've found common in other books. Well worth getting.


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## Bill Mattocks

dancingalone said:


> This is where that body conditioning comes in.  Kotekitae, perhaps a dirty word to some.  When I was coming up through the ranks, I often lined up with one of my seniors who was much beefier and stronger than me because I knew he could make me quit the exercise within 5 minutes with bruises up and down my arms.  Over time I developed the same hardness and I can now make other people wince in pain when I catch with them a block.



We also do kotekitae.  But not with bone-on-bone blocks.



> I believe there are good points to both types of blocking.  Isshinryu type blocking is probably safer in general for the body and it might be slightly quicker and more efficient as a stoppage manuever.  On the other hand, the block with the blade of the arm is more advantageous if you are working tuite or kyusho applications IMO.



I don't know tuite or kyusho applications, so I cannot say.  I have heard it said that Shimabuku sensei developed the Isshin-Ryu style blocks because he mainly taught US Marines, who could not very well show up at work all the time with busted arms.  I have no idea how true that is.  I will say that my natural inclination is to block more like I've seen Shotokan karateka do it, so that must be more 'natural' for me (having never been trained in Shotokan).  But over time, the Isshin-Ryu method of blocking has eventually become my natural reflex.



> Indeed.  I also enjoy working out with karate-ka from a variety of styles.  Goju-ryu and Isshin-ryu people can often share bunkai as well due to the overlap in their curricula.



Pretty cool stuff.  My sensei just came back from a trip where he want to learn 'oar kata' (Eku kata) down in Florida.  Now he's passing it on to us.  I'm pretty glad that he's not a _"If it isn't Isshin-Ryu, it's crap"_ kind of sensei.  We try to learn from whatever makes sense.  Heck, sensei has always told us that if you want to learn power and speed, take boxing lessons.  We practice certain boxing moves too.


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## geezer

Bill Mattocks said:


> One of the first things we're taught in Isshin-Ryu is the crescent or 'half-moon' step...
> 
> So my questions are these. How common is the crescent step outside of Isshin-Ryu? Does your style practice it or anything like it? quote]
> 
> Well, getting back to the OP, _Wing Chun_ makes extensive use of circle-stepping movements known as _huen bo. _It allows us to cover our groin and manuver around our opponents lead leg when fighting very close (consider, for example, moving in around that protruding leg on the WC wooden dummy). It also can make a very effective sweep, sometimes referred to as _kau bo_ or "plucking step". And when used explosively when closing range, it can help side-step and deflect a lower level linear kick. Considering the Chinese roots of Okinawan Te, I'm not surprised by this similarity.


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## lhommedieu

geezer said:


> Bill Mattocks said:
> 
> 
> 
> One of the first things we're taught in Isshin-Ryu is the crescent or 'half-moon' step...
> 
> So my questions are these. How common is the crescent step outside of Isshin-Ryu? Does your style practice it or anything like it? quote]
> 
> Well, getting back to the OP, _Wing Chun_ makes extensive use of circle-stepping movements known as _huen bo. _It allows us to cover our groin and manuver around our opponents lead leg when fighting very close (consider, for example, moving in around that protruding leg on the WC wooden dummy). It also can make a very effective sweep, sometimes referred to as _kau bo_ or "plucking step". And when used explosively when closing range, it can help side-step and deflect a lower level linear kick. Considering the Chinese roots of Okinawan Te, I'm not surprised by this similarity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All good points.  Isshin's half-moon step allows you to shift weight (and more importantly) to _center _your weight under your hips; this allows you (as someone posted above) to treat every step as if it were a kick and to do so in a bio-mechanically efficient manner.  You also get all the movements inherent in the form of the kick, i.e, deflections, knees, sweeps, etc., all while moving slightly off-line of the opponent.
> 
> Moving the rear foot close to and past the front foot occurs in a lot of martial arts.  I practiced some Isshin Ryu in the past but practice mostly Filipino and Chinese martial arts currently.  One thing to consider is that because the moving foot is "light" it can stop at any point of its arc and either go back (_"whoops - I guess I'd rather bail"_) or plant to provide the base for another footwork pattern.  You can see this in FMA's "triangle step" foot patterns and in Xing Yi Quan's "chicken step," although Xing Yi's stepping is _almost _linear.  Ditto Ba Gua Zhang's "mud step" wherein the inside leg swings in and then out while you're circle-walking.
> 
> All in all a great example of how common principles can inform similar techniques in different arts.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Steve
Click to expand...


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