# Optional Clothing Training?



## Bob Hubbard (Jul 28, 2009)

Had coffee this afternoon with Flea and we were discussing her training in a skirt and some ideas came up.  Traditional arts train in particular uniforms, and we get comfortable working in them and with them. But how many of us wear those same uniforms 24/7?  In our everyday clothes, our flexibility, our protection, and our leverage changes.  We can't rely on that sleeve being there to grab, or protect.

How many folks work wearing different clothing situations into their training?  Grab the heavy parka and layers and work for winter, or strip down to your skivies and work stuff from that perspective?  After all, a home invader won't wait until you put your pants on before charging.

And, anyone go the full weird out path, go buck naked, or old-style Greek and oil up?  Ok, while that's a good laugh, think how grappling a naked greasy person would differ from trying to take down someone in a trench coat.  How about swimwear?  Ladies, if your top is ripped off, does modesty take precedence over defense?  Guys, how about being jumped while standing at a urinal with your tackle out?    

Just tossing this weird topic out for chewing on.


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## Ty Hatfield (Jul 28, 2009)

> How many folks work wearing different clothing situations into their training? Grab the heavy parka and layers and work for winter.


 

I feel and train at times with large coats and in normal clothing. To try ideas on teq's using real clothing. In Ju-Jitsu us also no gi stuff but at times just train in shorts and t-shirt.

Just a few things

Thought I would add some times we also train going to like Hikes and at times find nice water fall to meditate at so it just in hiking stuff to the top and to the bottem but skinnys ok well shorts and or swimming suits in the water.

Ty Hatfield


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## elder999 (Jul 28, 2009)

Not weird at all, really. I had similar thoughts about 20 years ago, and all my students that make it to brown belt get a street clothes kit:BDUs, three piece suits,loafers, sneakers, jackets/parkas, with skirts and sturdy high-heels for the women. Mostly we get the stuff from surplus places and thrift-stores, and try not to beat it up to much. One of the things that's come up over the years for women is the rapid removal of high-heels as a tactic, and carrying them to and from  while  wearing more sensible shoes as a regular strategy. 

We do work on the odd compromising situations and develop tactics around them as an exercise in _heiho_: urinal, commode, in bed, etc. We even have field trips to various public restrooms to talk about choosing the strategically correct urinal and  or stall. I think Dave Lowry wrote about the proper way to sit on the toilet prepared for attack. 

Skirts? Not usually as physically restrictive as they are mentally, depending upon the style (of skirt)......


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## terryl965 (Jul 28, 2009)

Atleast once a month we train in street cloths. We have never been butt naked or oiled up, but they maybe an ideal for later.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 28, 2009)

Training in varied clothing and in different weather is essential for anyone interested in practice personal protection skills.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 28, 2009)

and I thought this thread was going to be about CLOTHING-OPTIONAL training.

disappointed...


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## jarrod (Jul 28, 2009)

Bob Hubbard said:


> And, anyone go the full weird out path, go buck naked, or old-style Greek and oil up? Ok, while that's a good laugh, think how grappling a naked greasy person would differ from trying to take down someone in a trench coat. How about swimwear? Ladies, if your top is ripped off, does modesty take precedence over defense? Guys, how about being jumped while standing at a urinal with your tackle out?



hm, interesting ideas.  i will try this & report back.  

just need a volunteer 

jf


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## sgtmac_46 (Jul 28, 2009)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Had coffee this afternoon with Flea and we were discussing her training in a skirt and some ideas came up.  Traditional arts train in particular uniforms, and we get comfortable working in them and with them. But how many of us wear those same uniforms 24/7?  In our everyday clothes, our flexibility, our protection, and our leverage changes.  We can't rely on that sleeve being there to grab, or protect.
> 
> How many folks work wearing different clothing situations into their training?  Grab the heavy parka and layers and work for winter, or strip down to your skivies and work stuff from that perspective?  After all, a home invader won't wait until you put your pants on before charging.
> 
> ...



I've actually had to wrestle a wacked out naked man in to handcuffs.........not fun......pretty damn funny when someone else is doing it but not fun to do yourself.

In prison inmates often strip down naked and cover themselves with feces and urine to make themselves more slippery when a cell extraction team is coming in.


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## Flea (Jul 28, 2009)

This winter after a catastrophic ice storm I got to class only to find the power (and heat) out.  I took my down parka off and whipped it right back on in a few seconds.  It was kind of like wearing a marshmallow.  Remember that scene from _A Christmas Story_?  That was me fighting ... 


[yt]HW4IZ0Flh3M[/yt]



And for the record, the nekkit oil thing was _strictly_ Bob's idea.  :angel:


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## Ty Hatfield (Jul 28, 2009)

To be honest the reson I would oil up is other person was a hot chick my $00.02 cents.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jul 28, 2009)

I don't need to train in the nude.  I drop trou, and everyone in the room but my wife (bless her) is going to be screaming and running for the exits.

Warning: Do not click if you mind some slightly rude language.

[yt]
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[/yt]


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## Flea (Jul 28, 2009)

Ty Hatfield said:


> To be honest the reson I would oil up is other person was a hot chick my $00.02 cents.



Ty, I think you'd be in some pretty good company on that one.  :whip1:


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 28, 2009)

I'm all for oil wrestling hot chicks, however 7 out of 10 hot chicks surveyed said they'd want to wrestle hot guys, the other 3 leaned towards other hot chicks.  Sadly none said "We wanna roll with a web geek", so I'm outta luck. lol!


All joking aside though, I'm thinking that working against someone oiled up would greatly change your tactics in a confrontation.


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## Flea (Jul 28, 2009)

elder999 said:


> We even have field trips to various public restrooms to talk about choosing the strategically correct urinal and  or stall. I think Dave Lowry wrote about the proper way to sit on the toilet prepared for attack.



Wow, that never would have dawned on me.  Could you elaborate?  Not to the point of challenging one's dinner of course, but ... I'd love to explore this.  For years I've been scanning public restrooms when I go in, and I always wished there was more I could do beyond that for safety.  Cool to know that there is.


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## jarrod (Jul 28, 2009)

Bob Hubbard said:


> I'm all for oil wrestling hot chicks, however 7 out of 10 hot chicks surveyed said they'd want to wrestle hot guys, the other 3 leaned towards other hot chicks.  Sadly none said "We wanna roll with a web geek", so I'm outta luck. lol!



the chicks surveyed obviously weren't drunk enough.  don't give up, bob.

jf


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## Bill Mattocks (Jul 28, 2009)

Flea said:


> Wow, that never would have dawned on me.  Could you elaborate?  Not to the point of challenging one's dinner of course, but ... I'd love to explore this.  For years I've been scanning public restrooms when I go in, and I always wished there was more I could do beyond that for safety.  Cool to know that there is.



I've been enjoying the humor of this thread, but in reality, there is a form of mugging that takes place in public restrooms, and a couple forms of theft.

The most common is theft of purses and laptop computers from stalls.  Basically, people put their computer bags down on the floor in front of them, and the thief just reaches under and grabs it and walks briskly away.  You won't be chasing them for at least a couple seconds.  The second is purses draped over the handy hook on the back of the stall door.  This one is very common.  A woman (or a man in drag) reaches over the top, grabs the bag that they know will most likely be there, and again walks off at a brisk pace.

The solution in both cases is to keep your bag or purse next to you, and if possible, step through the shoulder strap so it is secured to your leg.

The mugging I spoke of applies to men at urinals.  The mugger comes up from behind the victim and forces him directly into the urinal and leans in with his body weight.  The victim is pressed into the urinal and often has both hands in front of him and is looking down.  The mugger then extracts the victim's wallet and flees.  The victim is disoriented, off-balance, wet, and still, shall we say, exposed.  Unlikely to give immediate chase.

The solution is to practice the 'spin' when hit from behind while urinating.  One has to train themselves to avoid reacting instinctively to cover their groin when their tackle is out, but to instead elbow straight back, pivot, block or parry and strike the assailant.  Expect to be hit and practice thinking about what you'll do when it happens.

Public bathrooms can be dangerous places, and many criminals understand only too well that many people have a natural aversion to paying close attention to anyone else in a bathroom, to avoid making eye contact, and to 'make themselves decent' before giving chase or raising an alarm when a crime is committed.  One must abandon any pretense of modesty - you'd run out of your house naked if the house were on fire, wouldn't you?  Same thing here.


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## jks9199 (Jul 28, 2009)

Bob Hubbard said:


> I'm all for oil wrestling hot chicks, however 7 out of 10 hot chicks surveyed said they'd want to wrestle hot guys, the other 3 leaned towards other hot chicks.  Sadly none said "We wanna roll with a web geek", so I'm outta luck. lol!
> 
> 
> All joking aside though, I'm thinking that working against someone oiled up would greatly change your tactics in a confrontation.


Yeah, just a little.

I've wrestled a few slippery folks...  Lots of things don't work quite right.

I periodically have a day where I encourage students to where old clothes similar to their daily wear, and we do self-defense scenarios.  It's often rather an eye-opener.

Body armor and gunbelts also change how you move..


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## Ty Hatfield (Jul 28, 2009)

Flea said:


> Ty, I think you'd be in some pretty good company on that one. :whip1:


 

Smile Thanks


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## Tames D (Jul 28, 2009)

Flea said:


> Ty, I think you'd be in some pretty good company on that one. :whip1:


 
Is it getting warm in here?


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## Carol (Jul 28, 2009)

Oh god yes it is.

I read this title as "Clothing Optional Training" and wondered why this wasn't in after dark.   %-}


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## bekkilyn (Jul 28, 2009)

Heh, I also read this one as in clothing being optional, perhaps like practicing what you would do if someone attacked you in the shower.


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## still learning (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello, A story we read:  After a hard training class in Judo...the Sensi told the Black belts and brown belts to take of the top part of the  Gi..

He had the brown belts face the Black belts....guess what....many of the brown belts were able to counter the throws of black belts...because they were use to grabbing the sleeves and tops!

Lesson...training with Gi's is NOT the same as with street clothes and t-shirts...!

If you do not train with street clothes...pants will rip for long street pants too!

Aloha,






























1


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## Steve (Jul 29, 2009)

Kind of along the lines of gi and no-gi.  In gi training in BJJ, grips are a part of the training.  The gi is a weapon as much as anything else.  In no-gi, however, grabbing clothes is against the rules.  The idea is that you have no grips.  Completely different environment.  I don't train no-gi as often as I should, but both are important. 

I'd presume that doing something similar in a self defense training situation would be a good thing!


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## Ty Hatfield (Jul 29, 2009)

stevebjj said:


> "*The idea is that you have no grips*." Completely different environment. I don't train no-gi as often as I should, but both are important.
> 
> I'd presume that doing something similar in a self defense training situation would be a good thing!


 
I think it is very important to train doing similar stuff in self defense for sure. I have to say about Handles and grips there is grips in no gi ju-jitsu it is just not exactly the same. It is the joints that are grips any place the bones come together is a joint and a grip.


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## frank raud (Jul 29, 2009)

Flea said:


> Wow, that never would have dawned on me. Could you elaborate? Not to the point of challenging one's dinner of course, but ... I'd love to explore this. For years I've been scanning public restrooms when I go in, and I always wished there was more I could do beyond that for safety. Cool to know that there is.


   While you are at the urinal, a common tactic is for the bad guy to bang your head against the tile wall, then grab your wallet. Rest one arm on the wall, as if you are drunk and need to hold on, with your forearm at head level. Doesn't appear too unusual to a casual onlooker, but will help you avoid getting your head slammed, and makes it easier to rotate to defend yourself, as you having a bit more room to manouevre, as well as the strength in your arm to push off.

We have practiced being attacked when exiting bathroom stalls, thought provoking scenario, for sure.


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## Steve (Jul 29, 2009)

Ty Hatfield said:


> I think it is very important to train doing similar stuff in self defense for sure. I have to say about Handles and grips there is grips in no gi ju-jitsu it is just not exactly the same. It is the joints that are grips any place the bones come together is a joint and a grip.


Good point.  By no grips, I mean, you can't grab fabric, and often, because sweat is a real factor, grabbing anything is questionable.


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## Ty Hatfield (Jul 29, 2009)

stevebjj said:


> Good point. By no grips, I mean, you can't grab fabric, and often, because sweat is a real factor, grabbing anything is questionable.


 

Steve,

I understand I train alot in BJJ still in gi and no gi my partner is Ricky Lundell.


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## Live True (Jul 29, 2009)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Just tossing this weird topic out for chewing on.


 
I can't resist...this was really...ahemm....a poor choice of words for the topic....:lfao:


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## Live True (Jul 29, 2009)

stevebjj said:


> Good point. By no grips, I mean, you can't grab fabric, and often, because sweat is a real factor, grabbing anything is questionable.


 
As a more serious answer to this interesting thread...I recently went from training in a gi in a temp controlled gym...to training in sweat clothers or street clothes outside.  Needless to say, at this time of year, it is muggy and weather can be interesting (we're supposed to have rain today, but the plan is to train). 

Besides the interesting adjustments necessary to uneven terrain.....Early on I discovered that I get VERY slick with sweat by about 1/2way through training (is this what it feels like to be slimed?!?!).  It puts a whole new spin on any attempts to grab, throw, or any other type of contact.  I can only imagine oiling up would make this even more pronounced.  You can't depend on your grip and have to depend more on full body contact...at least, that is my current solution...I'm sure there are more elegant and effective ones for those more experienced...but it's definately been an interesting learning experience!  I highly recommend it!

Just drink LOTS of water! :uhyeah:


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## Gaius Julius Caesar (Jul 29, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I've been enjoying the humor of this thread, but in reality, there is a form of mugging that takes place in public restrooms, and a couple forms of theft.
> 
> The most common is theft of purses and laptop computers from stalls. Basically, people put their computer bags down on the floor in front of them, and the thief just reaches under and grabs it and walks briskly away. You won't be chasing them for at least a couple seconds. The second is purses draped over the handy hook on the back of the stall door. This one is very common. A woman (or a man in drag) reaches over the top, grabs the bag that they know will most likely be there, and again walks off at a brisk pace.
> 
> ...


 
Refer to the bathroom scene in Wild Geese 2 with Scott Glenn, hook kicking the knife weilder wh is about to stab him at the urinal. =)

I have had a couple knock out drag outs in bathrooms before, a nasty enviroment but one full of improvissed weapons.

On the OP's point, every class we do involves getting rid of the Gi top for at least a 1/4 of class, so you train with someone whos closthes can be used against him (and you) and someone whos cant.

I think it's a good idea to go outside and train as well, uneven ground, mud, snow, ice, trees, cars, curbs ect can all be a factor.


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## Jimi (Jul 29, 2009)

Back in 1983 my first Instructor insisted on us training in street clothes for the differing clothing conditions from training in a uniform. My class mate and I usually trained at high school as well as other times thru out the day. We were typically dressed as the casual athlete in sweat pants T-shirt/sweat shirt and sneakers, clothes condusive to both athletic endeavers and self defense. When my Instructor was expecting us to dress in jeans and other restrictive clothing and not be dressed for more activity, his plan to disclose how in the mid 70's at school he was wearing tight bell bottom jeans and got in an altercation trying to use a spin hook kick that got him pounded due to the clothing being restrictive as a lesson, he was at a loss when we were dressed in a way that still allowed us to perform athlectically. " I told you guys to dress like you would at school!!" we retorted, "This is how we dress most everyday for school" His point was clothing can affect your performance in self defense. Our point was due to our activity we had already addressed that in our lives. Needless to say he insisted on us dressing as restrictive as possible the next class as it was his intent for us to do as he willed, regardless. LOL. I do have to admitt though, that when I dress in finer clothing for weddings, funerals or special occasions, i find some clothing too tight & restrictive for my tastes, especially dress shoes with leather soles. You can clean me up, you just can't take me out. Not to mention a tie, i used to have to wear a tie at a club in DC I used to Bounce at, I hated wearing something that any fool within arms reach could pull the smart alek move of seizing me by my throat like a leash (that was my trigger to escort him from the premissis onto M street), I would always wind up doing my Rodney Dangerfield imitation throughout the night (tugging at my tie- no respect) LOL.


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## Flea (Jul 29, 2009)

I'll come at this from the opposite direction.  In my class we have no uniforms.  Ever.  People work out in jeans, in sweats, different kinds of shoes and even barefoot, and in my case sometimes an ankle-length skirt.

Granted, I'm a MA novice so I'm sure that I'm missing a lot here.  But if practicing in street clothes is such a great idea ... why use uniforms at all?


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## theletch1 (Jul 29, 2009)

We've done street clothes training.  Used to be a monthly thing until we moved to the new place.  I may have to bring that back.  We've also trained sitting in a chair as if on the "throne" and standing as if at a urinal.  Probably the toughest thing we've done (as aikido-ka) was train one night wearing boxing gloves.  You couldn't punch was the rule and you obviously couldn't grab.  Really made you think long and hard about redirecting the energy that you were getting.  Very much, I suspect, like trying to grab someone greased up.  No use of fingers really.  I my wife and I have trained here at the house on uneven terrain in our street clothes.  Add my everyday steel toe boots and uneven ground (damn moles) and it really, really changes the way I have to move and think about my defense.


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## theletch1 (Jul 29, 2009)

Flea said:


> I'll come at this from the opposite direction. In my class we have no uniforms. Ever. People work out in jeans, in sweats, different kinds of shoes and even barefoot, and in my case sometimes an ankle-length skirt.
> 
> Granted, I'm a MA novice so I'm sure that I'm missing a lot here. But if practicing in street clothes is such a great idea ... *why use uniforms at all?*



Conformity, increased discipline, stronger feeling of unity with your classmates.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 29, 2009)

Live True said:


> I can't resist...this was really...ahemm....a poor choice of words for the topic....:lfao:


I was going to call it clothing optional training but i thought it would get the wrong idea....lol!


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## jks9199 (Jul 29, 2009)

Flea said:


> I'll come at this from the opposite direction.  In my class we have no uniforms.  Ever.  People work out in jeans, in sweats, different kinds of shoes and even barefoot, and in my case sometimes an ankle-length skirt.
> 
> Granted, I'm a MA novice so I'm sure that I'm missing a lot here.  But if practicing in street clothes is such a great idea ... why use uniforms at all?


A couple of reasons.  (Dave Lowry goes into this more in his book *In The Dojo.*)

First, a uniform is a reminder of what you're doing.  My attitude and demeanor changes when I put my uniform on for work.  In the same way, when I dress out for class, it's a reminder to set aside the problems and concerns of the "ordinary" world, and focus on the moment of training.

Second, uniforms provide a sense of unity within a class, and in doing so, often reflect the attitude and spirit of the class.  A class where people where a traditional uniform is the norm -- you have a different attitude and spirit towards training.  When the uniform is flashy and full of patches and logos and prizes -- that often reflect he attitude of the school as well.

Third, uniforms save wear and tear on your regular clothes, and sometimes, your body.  There's a reason for long pants in a traditional  Judo uniform's longer knees and sleeves -- and it's not just to facilitate some of the holds.


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## Flea (Jul 29, 2009)

JKS and Letch, I appreciate your responses.  My question probably came across as "why do surgeons wear gloves?"  But I think that asking obvious questions can be very useful.  Someone once told me the invention of the mouse came about when one designer asked why all commands are done via keyboard.

Besides. As a novice, I have an excuse for asking dumb questions. :wink2: I may as well milk it, right?


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## Ronin74 (Jul 29, 2009)

In regards to the OP, the last group I trained with never had uniforms or belts, and the only times we wore anything that seemed remotely like a uniform were if we did MA demonstrations at public events. So everyone wore regular street clothes, though it was encouraged to wear something we didn't mind getting dirty.

The resistance offered by regular clothing did make a small difference in how we moved. Those of us who came from other TMAs found training in jeans to be even more restrictive than a heavyweight gi. Now our place didn't have a proper heating system, so a few of us wore layers (I'd have two layers of sweats and baggy jeans.) An unexpected boon for that came in the form of a little extra agility when we took off the extra layers.


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## grydth (Jul 29, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> I've actually had to wrestle a wacked out naked man in to handcuffs.........not fun......pretty damn funny when someone else is doing it but not fun to do yourself.
> 
> In prison inmates often strip down naked and cover themselves with feces and urine to make themselves more slippery when a cell extraction team is coming in.



All of those participating in the recent threads on alleged police misconduct would do well to recognize just what police have to deal with on our behalf each day..... and there are far worse than these out there.


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## still learning (Jul 30, 2009)

Hello,  Shoes..is just as important to train in!

Your everyday shoes will not react as your martial art shoes.  Barefoot training is different from your everyday work shoes...

Have you seen guys wear there everyday shoes in class and try some spinning kicks or straight kicks....you will see some "flobs" for sure..

Dress pants "rip" with high kicks...bring spares...

Grass reacts different for the same work shoes...cement grips more too.

You should train "completely" top to bottom..a few times in class every month...to get the true feeling of fighting in street clothes!

Aloha,   ( Hawaiian shirts are allow in our classes) and rubber slippers too!

PS: Talking pigeon is OK and allow ...No kan understand?


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## Live True (Jul 31, 2009)

Agreed Still Learning...different shoes, different ground surfaces, they do make a difference.

And your method of speech can be challenging sometimes (at least for me), but it is understandable...the fact that you work hard to express your opinion is impressive.


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## Steve (Jul 31, 2009)

Flea said:


> I'll come at this from the opposite direction. In my class we have no uniforms. Ever. People work out in jeans, in sweats, different kinds of shoes and even barefoot, and in my case sometimes an ankle-length skirt.
> 
> Granted, I'm a MA novice so I'm sure that I'm missing a lot here. But if practicing in street clothes is such a great idea ...* why use uniforms at all*?


Mostly, I think, because I can't afford to have all my clothes jacked up at a self defense class.  Buying a uniform that's durable enough for training saves my street clothes for other things.


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## Flea (Jul 31, 2009)

Steve, that also makes sense.  My own solution to that was to hit up the thrift store for some clothes just for MA - one pair of gym pants, one pair of camo pants, a sweatshirt, a couple tee shirts, and the infamous skirt.  To each their own.


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## shihansmurf (Jul 31, 2009)

I've always been well served by simple white pants with matching white shoes and hat. 

Classic look for my dojo, although the "Grand Master" wears red.



Mark


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## Kacey (Jul 31, 2009)

From the thread NICE martial artists wear skirts!: 



Kacey said:


> To return to the original topic - I periodically train in street clothes (those are, after all, what one is most likely to need to defend oneself in), and I teach classes in which my students come in street clothes and train in them, for the same reason. Granted, 90% of the time, street clothes for me means jeans and a t-shirt - but even sneakers can throw off your focus if you're not used to kicking in them. Sandals or dress shoes that come off at the first technique can throw you off - one of the things we practice is kicking your shoes off at the first attack, so as not to be hindered by them if they're likely to fall off anyway. On the other hand, spike heels are a great weapon, especially aimed at the instep following a shin rake.
> 
> You will respond as you train - and if you only train in a uniform, or gym clothes, that will likely hamper your response when you try anything else. Training in street clothes is a valuable technique, and I highly recommend it.


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## FearlessFreep (Jul 31, 2009)

Like this?






I often say "The dojang is for learning to do the techniques in an ideal practice environment, but I don't really own a technique until I can do it in street clothes out of the dojang"


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## rdonovan1 (Aug 8, 2009)

Flea said:


> JKS and Letch, I appreciate your responses. My question probably came across as "why do surgeons wear gloves?" But I think that asking obvious questions can be very useful. Someone once told me the invention of the mouse came about when one designer asked why all commands are done via keyboard.
> 
> Besides. As a novice, I have an excuse for asking dumb questions. :wink2: I may as well milk it, right?


 

I may be alone on this, but I personally don't believe that there is a such thing as a stupid question at all.


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## rdonovan1 (Aug 8, 2009)

I can't see myself training naked at all. I figure that if I am going to train then it is going to be either in a uniform or in some type of street clothe's as I know that I definitely am not going outside buck naked unless of course I am in some area that is very, very secluded like way out in the wilderness or something like that.

I figure that if I am going to be naked then it will be when I'm either with a girl that I really like or doing something like taking a bath or a shower. That's just me though. Other's may have different attitudes and opinions about the subject.


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