# Chi Sau vs Sparring



## 7starmantis (May 27, 2005)

There has been some debate lately about sparring. Is it neccessary, when should you start sparring, should it be full contact, and out of these has come some questions about chi sau. There are those who believe chi sau has its uses and those who dont. What do you think? Does your school or do you practice chi sau? If so do you use it as a drill, standing, moving, no contact, light contact, slow, speed, full speed, etc? 

 What is the difference between sparring and chi sau? In my book its simply semantics. We practice chi sau very slow at the beginning. In our school you dont even get to touch hands until your an intermediate student. Then its very very slow and hands only. Then it picks up speed and power and then at the black level you start using feet as well. Then its full speed, and full contact. Of course we aren't tryin to break knees or gauge out each others eyes. There are those however that feel chi sau doesn't teach true fighting, that it lacks a realistic base and doesn't live up to "sparring". I assume sparring is using gear and such, in chi sau we use no gear. 

 Ok, so what are your thoughts on the matter? Do you practice chi sau? If so for what reasons? How do you practice it and what do you feel you are getting out of it?

  7sm


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## clfsean (May 27, 2005)

Being a longfist system, no chi sau for me. I see the advantages of it when dealing with something similar, but not so much so (lack of experience speaking) when dealing with something that bridges long like CLF, BSL, HG, etc... 

As far as sparring... that's a judgement call. In my school, we don't spar until 2 man drills can be done full tilt with the safeties removed & still nobody dies. I haven't quite got there just yet. The problem with "sparring" as many schools see it, is that it's tag. It's not wade in & win the conflict. It's not use kung fu, it's get in & kickbox. You see where I'm heading with it. Until you can use your chosen KF skills as they are done in drills & 2 man work, with obvious modifications for stances/timing/footwork/etc... , and it not become kickboxing, then sparring should be avoided. Literally when you can pull off something out of a set & it looks like KF (think Shaw Bros classics) constantly, then you're fighting with KF & not kickboxing.


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## Isrephael (May 27, 2005)

I believe sparring to be incredibly important to the study of CMA, and MA in general.  You can study forms and drills all day long, but the first time someone slams a fist into you, the whole dynamic changes.  In my opinion, the most important martial skill someone can learn is the willingness and ability to be hit.  Too many people freak out the first time they taste their own blood.

As far as chi sao goes... The detractors need to spend some time sparring with some instructor/master level types.  Once someone good puts the sticky palms on you, it's rediculously frustrating, as all your attempts are trapped or yielded away.  It's enough to make you pull back and scream "STOP TOUCHING ME!!!"

In our school, we work several different chi sao drills: single hand/arm, double hand/arm, legs, body, or a combination of any of the above.  Speedwise, we govern it by pairing newer students with more experienced ones.  That way, if the newbie gets too excited and too fast (and thereby too unresponsive), the senior student can just toss him and show him the error of his ways.


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## clfsean (May 27, 2005)

Isrephael said:
			
		

> I believe sparring to be incredibly important to the study of CMA, and MA in general. You can study forms and drills all day long, but the first time someone slams a fist into you, the whole dynamic changes. In my opinion, the most important martial skill someone can learn is the willingness and ability to be hit. Too many people freak out the first time they taste their own blood.


Well it's a contact game from the word "Go". If someone's unwilling to be hit... take up needle point. I'm not willing though to give up proper technique & skill just to go kickbox...


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## SwedishChef (May 30, 2005)

Unless its a close range style I think chi sau is a waste of time.  In Sil Lum Chuan Tao we did it.  But I always thought of our style as long range.  As I've said on some other posts it closely resembles kenpo.  I never got why we did it but in styles like wing chun I think its essential.  If you're up in the guy's face you need to be able to read his movements.  But you also need the sparring drills to learn to close the distance quickly.  Start with one step and work towards completely non-cooperative sparring to give as authentic feel as possible.


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## BruceCalkins (May 30, 2005)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> There has been some debate lately about sparring. Is it neccessary, when should you start sparring, should it be full contact, and out of these has come some questions about chi sau. There are those who believe chi sau has its uses and those who dont. What do you think? Does your school or do you practice chi sau?
> 
> *Yes we work with Chi Sau for defense. The drills of constant contact in chi sau and sensitivity drills let us antisipate the oponents next move.*
> 
> ...


Great questions.. But it is always best to try it for yourself and see "If You Like It."


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## jfarnsworth (May 30, 2005)

Chi Sao is done at our school. Moving slowly, starting with hands only AND always staying in contact. We try to look in the opposite direction of our partner to understand the "feel" of the drill. Eventually we move into adding feet into the drill. Then we work into throws and joint locks as well but only after the other 2 have been covered first and the individuals are using sensitivity not visualizing and speeding up.
As for sparring, it is done on a seperate day as a seperate class. There you put the pads on and fight. It's not full contact but as long as everyone is in agreeance on the level of hitting then we have no problems. We need both drills. We need to be able to cover the 4 ranges of combat respectively in their drills to be proficient.  :asian:


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## brothershaw (May 30, 2005)

To CLFSean- I too wish kung fu tournys looked more like a shaw brothers fight scene, but thats off topic.

Chi Sau isnt sparring although it can get a little rough,and I dont think you could learn to fight from JUST chi sau, but it does give you a good feel for openings, etc., etc. and if you are lucky you wont wind up fighting a person who practices wing chun or some other close range style, so you may have a leg up. 

I guess sometimes people look to the wrong things for fighting skills and then that leads to people looking like crap,because some drills, forms etc are really just for building particular skills, not the entire fighting package and the teacher may not know this himself either.


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## sifu Adams (May 31, 2005)

Good Topic 7*.

In my style I sometimes think we start sparing to early. Chi Sau is important however I think you can better understand it once you done free sparing.  If you get a chance spar someone from another style  likd TKD.  I am not a fan of TKD however I think you would find the first time you spar them you may not fair to well.  but once you take that knowlage back and match it up to your training you will make some minor changes in the way you do your tech. to better help your self.  I like two man sets however if your blocking befor the your parner punches it wont help in sparing.  Same with kata and slow sparing.  I practic my katas like I am free sparing.  I vision the punch block and counter.   Example.  I like dragon sweeping TKD base legs.  but it took me getting kicked a few times and reworking my sweep to get lower and learning to set them up before I got to the point I could pull it off.  I seen it the first time I spared TKD however the move didnot work because I had never tryed it in real time sparing.


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## Spook (May 31, 2005)

SwedishChef said:
			
		

> Unless its a close range style I think chi sau is a waste of time.


Chi Sau is applicable any time you make contact with another person no matter if they are close or far away.  In Wing Chun we teach many situations where distance is applied to Chi Sau.


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## 7starmantis (Jun 5, 2005)

BruceCalkins said:
			
		

> Great questions.. But it is always best to try it for yourself and see "If You Like It."


 Um...you did read my entire post didn't you? Everyone is so quick to assume that someone asking a question has no esperience in what they are asking. I practice Chi Sau for at least an hour a day. I do like it. 



			
				brothershaw said:
			
		

> Chi Sau isnt sparring although it can get a little rough,and I dont think you could learn to fight from JUST chi sau, but it does give you a good feel for openings, etc., etc.


 Whats the difference? Maybe if you outline what is different between "sparring" and "chi sau" in your opinion I could better understand your point. I dont see why chi sau can't teach you to fight. What does "sparring" hold that "chi sau" lacks?

  7sm


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## archmagician (Jun 7, 2005)

In my opinion there are differences between Sparring and Chi Sau.

1. Sparring does not usually start from a predetermined stance. In Chi Sau, people usually start with their hands touching

2. Chi Sau does not usually allow throws, grappling, takedowns, sparring is usually more permissive of such tactics.

3. Sparring allows people  to take a long range approach to fighting and in chi sau  the goal is to stick together.

My .02

Sorry for being absent for so long...my work was burying me.


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## dscott (Jun 7, 2005)

The question shouldn't be Chi Sau vs. Sparring because Chi Sau _IS_ sparring.  It's the sparring of in-close clinching techniques.  Sparring can consist of many different types of techniques (boxing range, kicking range, trapping range and grappling range).


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## 7starmantis (Jun 7, 2005)

archmagician said:
			
		

> In my opinion there are differences between Sparring and Chi Sau.
> 
> 1. Sparring does not usually start from a predetermined stance. In Chi Sau, people usually start with their hands touching
> 
> ...


 I guess it all depends on whom you have practiced chi sau with. In our school our chi sau (or jeem lim sau) allows long range fighting, although our goal is to close the gap and stay close, but there are many, many times when close range is broken. We also allow throws, grappling and takedowns, its not fighting without those is it? We do not start from hands touching or a predetermined position most of the time, in the beginners drills for chi sau, yes, but not in advanced free fighting. So that being said, I am still curious as to what sparring holds over "chi sau" that teaches you so much about fighting.

  7sm


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## Spook (Jun 7, 2005)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> I guess it all depends on whom you have practiced chi sau with. In our school our chi sau (or jeem lim sau) allows long range fighting, although our goal is to close the gap and stay close, but there are many, many times when close range is broken. We also allow throws, grappling and takedowns, its not fighting without those is it? We do not start from hands touching or a predetermined position most of the time, in the beginners drills for chi sau, yes, but not in advanced free fighting. So that being said, I am still curious as to what sparring holds over "chi sau" that teaches you so much about fighting.
> 
> 7sm


Same here at our school.  Chi Sau is such a practicle tool, it seems odd that some would practice such a limited form of it, such as minus throws, only close, etc.

Just goes to show every school is different.


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## 7starmantis (Jun 17, 2005)

So no one has anything to offer for what sparring has that chi sau is missing?

7sm


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## brothershaw (Jun 17, 2005)

From my viewpoint/ training chi sau is not fighting period. Its a training tool to develop sensitivity, find openings, learn how to cover your own centerline and on and on. Its not about being able to win , or beat somebody up or get off kicking combos,its not about endurance ( although your arms may get tired, and if might be tiring if you are out of shape).
Comparing chi sau to sparring or fighting is like comparing BJJ/judo guys rolling ( as they call it ) to actual fighting. It may give you some good tools to use in a fight per se, but its a different structure than fighting or sparring where someone is trying to beat you into submission as opposed to just learning how to feel the ebb and flow of an exchange and develop sensitivity to an opponent,moves and counter moves.
You could also be the best chi sau person in the world but that doesnt mean you will know how to fight, hit hard or take a hit, or have good footwork.

Sparring can help you learn those things ( hit, take a hit , footwork, combos etc.) so sparring definitely has its place as does chi sau (especially if you do wing chun), but the 2 are not the same and one cant really replace the other.


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## 7starmantis (Jun 17, 2005)

I think your just not experienced in advanced chi sau. It is about endurance, taking a hit, footwork, etc. How does what you do in sparring differ from what you do in chi sau, specifically? See, I think its just a matter of not defining chi sau. The chi sau we do is full contact, you get hit, grabbed, thrown, locked, grappled, etc. 

Your definition, learnign the "ebb and flow" is the beginners drill for chi sau, not advanced free fighting chi sau.

7sm


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## eyebeams (Jun 18, 2005)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> So no one has anything to offer for what sparring has that chi sau is missing?
> 
> 7sm


 Both sticking and push hands are all about cross-hands range. Cross-hands is funny, in that it's the range you'll be in for the least amount of time, but what you do there can make or break the whole thing. It's the door you do "in" to strike close or grapple or "out" to kick or use longer hand techniques. But of you cannot apply any of this decisively, then your ability to manipulate this range doesn't matter much. Anybody who trains cross-hands/trapping distance a lot needs to spar to learn how ephemeral that range actually is.

 Finally, you need to know how to take a punch and keep on going. It's that simple.


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## eyebeams (Jun 18, 2005)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> I think your just not experienced in advanced chi sau. It is about endurance, taking a hit, footwork, etc. How does what you do in sparring differ from what you do in chi sau, specifically? See, I think its just a matter of not defining chi sau. The chi sau we do is full contact, you get hit, grabbed, thrown, locked, grappled, etc.
> 
> Your definition, learnign the "ebb and flow" is the beginners drill for chi sau, not advanced free fighting chi sau.
> 
> 7sm


 Then you're asking a trick question, really, because Chi Sau with hard contact techniques, takedowns and full footwork is what most folks call "sparring." What you're actually asking is:

 "How does sparring from one starting (cross-hands) position vary from sparring from another position?"


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## brothershaw (Jun 18, 2005)

From my experience and also observation of those more skilled than me, chi sau at least in wing chun has a certain structure to it thats not there in sparring. Yes you can kick and get hit but its still different . Coming from 7 star mantis the chi sau you do is probably different ( not better or worse).

Actually chi sau for wing chun is not "free fighting", at least not in my school, maybe in other schools or other lineages. 
So based on what you are saying we are talking about differnt things.

To digress in the fmas there are various contact drills siimiliar to chi sau, you look for openings, you could hit or trap etc.( with sticks, knives or empty hands ) but no matter how good you get at them everybody knows they are not actually sparring or fighting. 

Also I agree with eyebeam, lol.


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## 7starmantis (Jun 18, 2005)

eyebeams said:
			
		

> Both sticking and push hands are all about cross-hands range. Cross-hands is funny, in that it's the range you'll be in for the least amount of time, but what you do there can make or break the whole thing. It's the door you do "in" to strike close or grapple or "out" to kick or use longer hand techniques. But of you cannot apply any of this decisively, then your ability to manipulate this range doesn't matter much. Anybody who trains cross-hands/trapping distance a lot needs to spar to learn how ephemeral that range actually is.
> 
> Finally, you need to know how to take a punch and keep on going. It's that simple.


 Very true, but the "chi sau" we do does not start from cross hands. See, each person is showing their own assumptions to what chi sau is. Your assuming its starting from cross hands, is limiting your ability to decisively apply things, and doesn't teach taking a punch. What I'm trying to do is actually get a definition of what chi sau is and what sparring is for the course of this discussion. See, the range of trapping is only ephemeral if you dont really have the principles of chi sau (sticking). If you have that skill set down, you can extend the life of your close range to almost an infinite level. You say those who practice that distance alot need to spar. What exactly would you define "spar" to mean in that sense? If there is one thing I would say our chi sau teaches very well, it would be taking a punch and keeping going.



			
				eyebeams said:
			
		

> Then you're asking a trick question, really, because Chi Sau with hard contact techniques, takedowns and full footwork is what most folks call "sparring." What you're actually asking is:
> 
> "How does sparring from one starting (cross-hands) position vary from sparring from another position?"


 I'm glad you said that. Your almost exactly right. Its not a trick, but what I consider chi sau _is_ remarkably close to what others consider sparring. That is why I am trying to get people to define the words "sparring" and "chi sau" in this discussion. So far no one has posted anything to define either or set either apart from each other. We just keep using the words almost interchangeably. 

 I'm not asking what you said, because chi sau to me is not starting from cross hands position, so thats incorrect. I'm simply asking what the difference is between the words, in the sense of this thread.

   7sm


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## eyebeams (Jun 19, 2005)

If your Chi Sau does not necessarily have any form of arm to arm contact and includes the full range of fighting, then it's your name for sparring, really. Otherwise:

  1) You have prearranged movements, with or without footwork.

  2) Or you start with a base set of arranged movements, with or without footwork.

  3) Or you start from a default position, with or without footwork.

 "Chi Sau" is a meaningful term outside of your art when it's the first two. When it's the third and you have the full range of options, it's sparring.

 As for how long trapping range lasts, I don't believe it's really desireable to extend it. I want to gain a decisive advantage and deal with the opponent, not prolong the fight. Compared with the time it takes to match rhythm and probe at long range, or apply submissions locks and throws at close range*, trapping range is, in my opinion, pretty ephemeral. It's important, but brief. The again, I look at this stuff as a way to immediately take the role of aggressor away from the attacker and give it to myself, and not from a strictly defensive mindset.

 *Yes, you might say some of this is at trapping range, but once you apply the technique, you're "through the door."


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## 7starmantis (Jun 19, 2005)

eyebeams said:
			
		

> If your Chi Sau does not necessarily have any form of arm to arm contact and includes the full range of fighting, then it's your name for sparring, really. Otherwise:
> 
> 1) You have prearranged movements, with or without footwork.
> 
> ...


 OK, I'm glad we got that settled. See, chi sau to me fullfills everything "saprring" does, but also goes quite a bit further. To me, sparring has a stigma of using pads, and genrally devoid of technique. Grantit, thats really generalizing and just semantics, but its always stayed with me. True sparring, I can see the need for, but our chi sau accomplishes all of those good points plus more. We learn all of the full contact aspects that sparring teaches and also the feel, sticking, and fluid movement of chi sau. Practicing it both full speed and very slow.
   So I guess we can say that chi sau and sparring can be used interchangeably.



			
				eyebeams said:
			
		

> As for how long trapping range lasts, I don't believe it's really desireable to extend it. I want to gain a decisive advantage and deal with the opponent, not prolong the fight. Compared with the time it takes to match rhythm and probe at long range, or apply submissions locks and throws at close range*, trapping range is, in my opinion, pretty ephemeral. It's important, but brief. The again, I look at this stuff as a way to immediately take the role of aggressor away from the attacker and give it to myself, and not from a strictly defensive mindset.
> 
> *Yes, you might say some of this is at trapping range, but once you apply the technique, you're "through the door."


 I see what your saying, my view of it is just a bit off I guess. In mantis we really heavily focus on trapping even at the closest of ranges. Thats why I immediately posted about extending that range, which I guess would really be "close range". I guess its the mantis bias, sorry. We call taking the agressor away, "stealing the attack", which I love, so I completely understand what your saying about that. I'm not meaning to sound like I'm coming from a strictly defensive standpoint, thats really not mantis at all. 

   7sm


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## brothershaw (Jun 19, 2005)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> I think your just not experienced in advanced chi sau. It is about endurance, taking a hit, footwork, etc. How does what you do in sparring differ from what you do in chi sau, specifically? See, I think its just a matter of not defining chi sau. The chi sau we do is full contact, you get hit, grabbed, thrown, locked, grappled, etc.
> 
> Your definition, learnign the "ebb and flow" is the beginners drill for chi sau, not advanced free fighting chi sau.
> 
> 7sm



Bottom line - this thread should be on kung fu forum and aimed at other 7star people whos chi sau is the same as yours, because wing chun chi sau is so different we are talking about apples and oranges


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## 7starmantis (Jun 20, 2005)

brothershaw said:
			
		

> Bottom line - this thread should be on kung fu forum and aimed at other 7star people whos chi sau is the same as yours, because wing chun chi sau is so different we are talking about apples and oranges


 Um, this is in the Kung Fu Forum, and it could be a great discussion still, if we could get some set deffinitions of those apples and oranges. This isn't in the Wing Chun forum either so if we set a deffinition of chi sau and sparring we can all contribute and not limit it to those we assume also practice the way I do.

  7sm


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## brothershaw (Jun 20, 2005)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> Um, this is in the Kung Fu Forum, and it could be a great discussion still, if we could get some set deffinitions of those apples and oranges. This isn't in the Wing Chun forum either so if we set a deffinition of chi sau and sparring we can all contribute and not limit it to those we assume also practice the way I do.
> 
> 7sm


1- When I said kung fu forum I meant kung fu magazines forum they have an entire section just for northern mantis
2- When I tried to describe wing chun chi sau you said " you have probably only been exposed to beginner level stuff" to paraphrase. 
When actually I was trying to describe my apple to you and say that what you call an apple in 7star might be an orange in wing chun not what we call an apple
3- But to get back on point I have chi sau'd  (sp) with other wing chun people from outside of my school and they do things differently ( as far as thier methods and preferences) but it is still falls within a wing chun "frame work" . 
4- I am however glad that you discussed the version of chi sau that is practiced at your school because I have been curious as to what other systems consider chi sau,( not to say that wing chun has the definitive version)
5- Apples and oranges if I say to a bjj or sambo guy lets roll he will think grapple on the floor for a submission , I walk up to a wing chun guy and say lets roll he may think chi sau
6- Still a decent thread, no offense intended


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## grappling_mandala (Jun 20, 2005)

The Chi Sau that 7* is doing sounds like the sparring of others. <wink>

"So no one has anything to offer for what sparring has that chi sau is missing?"

I would say for the most part timing and distancing for the use of the proper tools at the proper time. I like what eyebeams had to say.

Dave Copeland


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## Franc0 (Jun 21, 2005)

Though our training is primarily eclectic, we do Chi Sau as part of it. Once after one of my advanced students learned his Chi Sau, and learned it well, he commented on how he felt he couldn't see it working in a more realistic confrontation, like hard sparring. At the end of a session later that week, I said to gear up for some hard contact sparring. Whenever we hard spar, we videotape it for later review. So I jumped in with him, and whenever he threw a heavy punch, I would Lop Sau him, and when he retracted his jab I would Pak Sau him. Because it happened so fast he didn't really realise it because I would also nail him with punches and whatever during execution. Afterwards we watched the videos, and he could see clearly when and how it was applied. The moral to this story boys and girls? If you train hard and really learn the deeper aspects of applications, you'll see that given the right timing and skills, it can all work for you, even in sparring. :asian: 

Franco


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## DBACPhoenix (Jul 27, 2005)

A month overdue, but since I took the time to read this thread I may as well post.


It is obvious that everyone's discrepency is how chi sau is taught in their school and how that compares to the stigma of sparring.

Chi Sau, sticky-hands, or how ever you want to describe it is merely the practice of maintaining contact and clinging (jim lim).  Regardless if you do your chi sau slow, fast, light contact, full contact, throws, locks, grappling, starting from crossed hands or starting across the street from each other, all of this can be considered chi sau if your method includes jim lim.

A style that does not emphisize maintaining contact/clinging will obviously see chi sau as inferior, but that is because of their teachings.  Sparring is a generalized term that represents any form of "free fighting" practice.  As long as the participants are given a general freedom to throw techniques, you are sparring and if part of your goal is to maintain contact and cling to your opponent then you are also practicing chi sau.

You really cannot compare the two terms since Sparring has no bearing on the method of the fight, yet chi sau does.  TKD students can spar, but do not practice chi sau.  7* Mantis students can do chi sau, and therefore are sparring.

The benefits seen from chi sau depend on the level and the restrictions placed on a particular session of chi sau.  Chi sau can be accomplished going very slow, no movement, no kicking, one attacker and one defender.  Yet it also can be done full speed, full contact, and full movement, but only as long as the method is maintained (jim lim).

As far as experiencing get hit... It doesn't take much to experience that and nearly every style exerts control in their strikes (you can't go around dehabilitating your partners).

*To sum things up*

Chi Sau is fighting that maintains contact and clinging
Sparring is fighting that is considered practice
Chi Sau is also fighting that is considered practice

Therefore Chi Sau is Sparring, but Sparring is not Chi Sau

Phoenix


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## 7starmantis (Jul 27, 2005)

I agree with part but disagree that chi sau is specifically "sticking/clinging" (jim lim). Jim Lim is a mantis principle while chi sau is a wing chun term. Many, many chi sau players know nothing of jim lim. I do agree that chi sau is probably most known for the teaching of remaining in contact and using feel, but to say its "sticking/clinging is too precise. For mantis people your correct, but for others in other systems you may not be correct. 

 I agree with your consensus however, chi sau is sparring, but sparring is not chi sau.

 7sm


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## brothershaw (Jul 30, 2005)

If they practice wing chun and dont stick/cling then there wing chun needs work and/or they werent taught to stick.


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## Jelik (Oct 2, 2005)

Personally I think Chi Sao is what gives Wing Chun its edge. Sparring full contact is really good to get used to being knocked around etc, but lighter sparring (where you can learn to trust / use chi sao) is equally as important to me.


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## Jelik (Oct 2, 2005)

The definition of chi sao to me is "contact reflex" - my understanding is that chi sao can be applied once any contact is made... Personally think it is much much harder to use / feel when one is padded up with gloves and head gear though!


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## brothershaw (Oct 2, 2005)

You are correct about contact reflexes.  From chi sau you get used to the feel of postioning, where to look for openings, are the oppenents arms moving to much left, right, forward etc. Although for just an instant it adds to your ability to get in past their limbs and strike, whil also training structure, and footwork in combination.


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## Jelik (Oct 2, 2005)

Well put.


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## chonsau1 (Jan 9, 2006)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> There has been some debate lately about sparring. Is it neccessary, when should you start sparring, should it be full contact, and out of these has come some questions about chi sau. There are those who believe chi sau has its uses and those who dont. What do you think? Does your school or do you practice chi sau? If so do you use it as a drill, standing, moving, no contact, light contact, slow, speed, full speed, etc?
> 
> What is the difference between sparring and chi sau? In my book its simply semantics. We practice chi sau very slow at the beginning. In our school you dont even get to touch hands until your an intermediate student. Then its very very slow and hands only. Then it picks up speed and power and then at the black level you start using feet as well. Then its full speed, and full contact. Of course we aren't tryin to break knees or gauge out each others eyes. There are those however that feel chi sau doesn't teach true fighting, that it lacks a realistic base and doesn't live up to "sparring". I assume sparring is using gear and such, in chi sau we use no gear.
> 
> ...


chi sau is good practice for techniques and a starting point for combat. The best way to see if all of your training is working is to do three or four on one (you) each opponent comes at you one to two sec. appart. With wing chun an attacking opponent should be taken care of in one or two moves, if not then you are fighting that person again along with others. I have found that simple moves are the most effective(tansau punch/pac punch/straight punch no block,beat him to it.). How many of you have actually been in a fight and had a chance to use your skills? If you have you might of been alittle disappointed, I was. Over befor you new what had happened, no thought no fancy stuff just plain effectiveness. Keep doing chi sau sparring ect. all good. Maybe run your mouth off one night and see how good you really are. The most important thing is intensity allways with wing chun, even in training.


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## naneek (Mar 21, 2009)

to me chi sau can only be done when in contact with the opponent, it is used to develop reflexes and sensitivity, it starts from a prearranged postition and is exclusively close range. sparring moves between ranges and does not have to start from a prearranged postition, it sounds like your mantis chisau is a mix of the two as i see them. in wing chun we want to be in contact ideally and to stay there if an opponent moves away we will stick at the first opportunity


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