# acidemic testing vs martial school testing



## tshadowchaser (Jan 24, 2015)

Ok
Lets discuss academic testing vs the testing of martial arts students. Should one or the other or both only be test when they are ready? 
Should there be a standard for testing one or both?.  If an academic student was not ready or never ready what should be done with that person and the same for the martial student?


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## drop bear (Jan 24, 2015)

Different because the reason for the qualification is different. A doctor is trusted with having to perform surgery. So his qualification has to be to a standard. A martial artist does not have to fight bad guys. At some point you just give him the belt.

As. A case study, down syndrome black belt kid. Ii mean will he ever be the top fightinist black belt in the club sending out fear and respect to everyone he meets?

No. 

But what sort of monster is not going to grade the guy.


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## tshadowchaser (Jan 24, 2015)

A side note before this thread gets going. This is a spinoff thread from PhotonGuy's "I should have clarified "


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## tshadowchaser (Jan 24, 2015)

For myself I see to completely different reasons for learning.  One is for a grade or degree that perhaps will benefit a person in getting a job.  The other is for a bunch of reasons : health, self protection, preparation in saving a life.
One need to met certain standards set up by the government be it local or federal. The other meets the requirement of the school or organization. One has time limits and material listed to pass or not. The other usual y dose not have time limits and the material may change for each person.
In the first you do not pay for tests ( not sure about private schools) in the 2nd you may well pay and pay and pay in many places.


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## Transk53 (Jan 25, 2015)

tshadowchaser said:


> Ok
> Lets discuss academic testing vs the testing of martial arts students. Should one or the other or both only be test when they are ready?
> Should there be a standard for testing one or both?.  If an academic student was not ready or never ready what should be done with that person and the same for the martial student?



With the academic testing, they are forced into a timetable schedule. I suppose in a way the same could be applied to martial arts. Not in the usual sense, but in the fastrack/intensive sense. For example the school out in Thailand that offers residential courses in MT for a month or so. In that sense not much different than doing a GCSE or A-Level. With a processional certification like Microsoft, you would have a certain amount of control to pick when you do an exam, but I would imagine the sense of freedom on that would not be that great. Perhaps a little more pressurized.


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 25, 2015)

This was a good thread to start. Anyway, one difference I see between academic schooling and testing and the same stuff in martial arts is that it is not seen as wrong or disrespectful for a student to ask a teacher what they need to study or work on and/or what they need to do to get a good grade. As for martial arts, at least based on some of the posts in this forum, that same stuff can be seen as disrespectful. At least that's the impression I've got from some of the posts.


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## tshadowchaser (Jan 25, 2015)

I would think that in the world of academics a student should know what they are supposed to study and be ready for the exam. If they need to ask they have not been paying attention in class.
In the martial arts world it should be much the same.  The Instructor should have presented the material in class, gone over it enough times so that students know it is expected to be known.
In both cases the student may need to go over the material on his own or in a group environment to better understand the material and place it in his/her memory.
Asking if you missed something because you where sick,on vacation, etc. should be allowed in both cases but to specifically ask whats on the test is asking the instructor in both cases to basically give you the answers to what is upcoming.


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## drop bear (Jan 25, 2015)

tshadowchaser said:


> I would think that in the world of academics a student should know what they are supposed to study and be ready for the exam. If they need to ask they have not been paying attention in class.
> In the martial arts world it should be much the same.  The Instructor should have presented the material in class, gone over it enough times so that students know it is expected to be known.
> In both cases the student may need to go over the material on his own or in a group environment to better understand the material and place it in his/her memory.
> Asking if you missed something because you where sick,on vacation, etc. should be allowed in both cases but to specifically ask whats on the test is asking the instructor in both cases to basically give you the answers to what is upcoming.



Not academic vs martial grading. But on that vein i would fight camp the guy before a grading.

Then regardless of whether they pass or fail they were at least prepared for it.


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## Transk53 (Jan 26, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Not academic vs martial grading. But on that vein i would fight camp the guy before a grading.
> 
> Then regardless of whether they pass or fail they were at least prepared for it.



That does make sense. The exposure as you say can still be valid and useful.


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 26, 2015)

tshadowchaser said:


> I would think that in the world of academics a student should know what they are supposed to study and be ready for the exam. If they need to ask they have not been paying attention in class.
> In the martial arts world it should be much the same.  The Instructor should have presented the material in class, gone over it enough times so that students know it is expected to be known.
> In both cases the student may need to go over the material on his own or in a group environment to better understand the material and place it in his/her memory.
> Asking if you missed something because you where sick,on vacation, etc. should be allowed in both cases but to specifically ask whats on the test is asking the instructor in both cases to basically give you the answers to what is upcoming.



I've never heard of it being disrespectful for students in academics to ask teachers if there's something they don't understand. In high school and in college it is not uncommon to see students approach the teacher after class and ask about certain stuff. Never have I seen a student rebuked for that or told that they were being disrespectful.


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## Steve (Jan 26, 2015)

I don't think I completely understand what is being asked here.  Academic testing meaning like in a school?  Or academic as in a  contrast to a practical test?

At first blush, I think that the core issue is structure in a curriculum, and less about the mechanics of testing and promotion.  If the curriculum is well structured, subjective and proficiency based, then the rest tends to take care of itself.


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## Steve (Jan 26, 2015)

drop bear said:


> As. A case study, down syndrome black belt kid. Ii mean will he ever be the top fightinist black belt in the club sending out fear and respect to everyone he meets?
> 
> No.
> 
> But what sort of monster is not going to grade the guy.


Promoting someone with a disability above their level of accomplishment, I think it would be patronizing and exploitive.

Couple of questions I'd ask if I ran that school.  First, are the qualifications for black belt clear, well defined, objective and fair?  Second, does this child with down's syndrome meet the minimum expectations? 

If the answer to the first question is no, that school or system has some work to do.  I'd grade the child, because really, there are issues with the standards.  They are either poorly defined and vague, subjective or unfair.   

If the answer to the second question is no, I would not grade him.  If the answer is yes, I would absolutely grade him. 

A key consideration here would be to define the qualifications, with an emphasis on what is essential for grading and what is not.


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## tshadowchaser (Jan 26, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> I've never heard of it being disrespectful for students in academics to ask teachers if there's something they don't understand. In high school and in college it is not uncommon to see students approach the teacher after class and ask about certain stuff. Never have I seen a student rebuked for that or told that they were being disrespectful.



Never said it was disrespectful for an academic to ask what was on the exam I said if they had been paying attention in class they should know what was covered and what they had been told to study. Asking for extra help in both is not wrong but only studying what is on the exam is wrong. For the martial arts student he/she should know all the material from day one to the point of his testing and these things should be practiced constantly.
In truth I fell that most exams in both academics and martial arts should be  given without an announcement before hand of when the test is. That way the students must keep up with whats is abd has been taught


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 26, 2015)

tshadowchaser said:


> Never said it was disrespectful for an academic to ask what was on the exam I said if they had been paying attention in class they should know what was covered and what they had been told to study. Asking for extra help in both is not wrong but only studying what is on the exam is wrong. For the martial arts student he/she should know all the material from day one to the point of his testing and these things should be practiced constantly.
> In truth I fell that most exams in both academics and martial arts should be  given without an announcement before hand of when the test is. That way the students must keep up with whats is abd has been taught



OK  you make some good points. I will make a more in depth response in a later post since Im a bit pressed for time right now.


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 26, 2015)

So anyway, I will say this quickly. One big difference I've noticed between academic testing and martial arts testing is this. With academic testing, tests are mandatory. You have to take them when they're given. With martial arts testing, in many dojos, its the other way around, you don't take the test until you're ready. So in academic testing you have to be ready when they give the tests in martial arts testing you don't get the test until you're ready. Interesting how they're backwards.


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## Steve (Jan 26, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> So anyway, I will say this quickly. One big difference I've noticed between academic testing and martial arts testing is this. With academic testing, tests are mandatory. You have to take them when they're given. With martial arts testing, in many dojos, its the other way around, you don't take the test until you're ready. So in academic testing you have to be ready when they give the tests in martial arts testing you don't get the test until you're ready. Interesting how they're backwards.


This model isn't universal.  But in this model, using the term "test" in the martial arts model isn't really appropriate.  If you cannot fail, it's not a test.  Rather, it's a demonstration.


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 26, 2015)

Steve said:


> This model isn't universal.  But in this model, using the term "test" in the martial arts model isn't really appropriate.  If you cannot fail, it's not a test.  Rather, it's a demonstration.



Well as Blindside pointed out in another thread, a person can fail a test even if they're "ready." Its one thing to be able to do the techniques up to par, its another thing to be able to perform that well on a test. As it is a test depends on your performance at that time and some people just don't perform well on tests although they might perform well in practice. Part of the challenge of passing a test is performance under pressure which is what you have to deal with when you're taking a test.


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## Steve (Jan 26, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Well as Blindside pointed out in another thread, a person can fail a test even if they're "ready." Its one thing to be able to do the techniques up to par, its another thing to be able to perform that well on a test. As it is a test depends on your performance at that time and some people just don't perform well on tests although they might perform well in practice. Part of the challenge of passing a test is performance under pressure which is what you have to deal with when you're taking a test.


If you can fail it, sure, it might be a test.   But this would suggest that a person is taking the test before they're ready.  You said that the Martial Arts model is for a person to take the test only when they're ready.  If they're ready, they can't fail, and therefore aren't taking a test; rather, they are performing a demonstration.


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## Blindside (Jan 26, 2015)

Steve said:


> If you can fail it, sure, it might be a test.   But this would suggest that a person is taking the test before they're ready.  You said that the Martial Arts model is for a person to take the test only when they're ready.  If they're ready, they can't fail, and therefore aren't taking a test; rather, they are performing a demonstration.


 
I chose when to schedule my oral defense for my Master's degree when I thought I was ready, my professors would not have scheduled it if they thought I wasn't ready, but I could certainly fail.   It certainly was not a demonstration, had I frozen up and not been able to recall the science behind my arguments I would have failed.


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## drop bear (Jan 26, 2015)

Steve said:


> Promoting someone with a disability above their level of accomplishment, I think it would be patronizing and exploitive.
> 
> Couple of questions I'd ask if I ran that school.  First, are the qualifications for black belt clear, well defined, objective and fair?  Second, does this child with down's syndrome meet the minimum expectations?
> 
> ...




I had chosen a real case study.





I have had comments from purists that he may no fully comprehend the full depths of his martial arts or something. Possibly couldn't teach. That kind of thing.


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## Steve (Jan 26, 2015)

drop bear said:


> I had chosen a real case study.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've seen similar situations, and figured you were probably thinking of something that has happened.  As I said, if the kid can do what needs to be done, awesome.  If not, even with thoughtful accommodations in place, then it's at best condescending and at worst exploitative.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 26, 2015)

This is a good point, though.
At our dojang, we are willing to promote someone with good understanding but limited physical abilities - we have a woman who is over 70 and currently 2nd Geup. She will never have the physical capabilities of the younger students, but her understanding of not just the material taught but also the principals behind technique is excellent. She will eventually make 1st Dan.
We have another student (in her 20's) who has decent physical abilities, but her understanding is limited, and will always be limited. She is currently 1st Geup. We've delayed several of her promotions because of her limited understanding. But when her understanding is as good as it's going to get given her limitations, she gets promoted. I expect she will also eventually make 1st Dan.
I do not think we are exploiting or condescending to either. We're training them to the limits of their physical and intellectual abilities.


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## drop bear (Jan 26, 2015)

Steve said:


> I've seen similar situations, and figured you were probably thinking of something that has happened.  As I said, if the kid can do what needs to be done, awesome.  If not, even with thoughtful accommodations in place, then it's at best condescending and at worst exploitative.





Steve said:


> I've seen similar situations, and figured you were probably thinking of something that has happened.  As I said, if the kid can do what needs to be done, awesome.  If not, even with thoughtful accommodations in place, then it's at best condescending and at worst exploitative.



I think the concept of it being condescending is a bit rough. We have that stance because we have essentially fighters and not fighters. And even if the guy is great and a credit to the club. If he cant fight. Well he cant fight. But at a belt level I would be more liberal with my definition of effective black belt.
Actually i might have a better one. To get your bjj black i believe you have to compete?

This was raised on an ed oneil black belt discussion once. And i believe the argument was well not really because reasons.


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## Buka (Jan 26, 2015)

I have no problem with anyone running a dojo and testing any way they want. I have no problem with promoting without testing. If I had to do it all over again, I'd go the no testing route.

But if there IS testing it's real simple, fellas. Go to class everyday and work your *** off. You'll never have to worry about a test.


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## Steve (Jan 27, 2015)

drop bear said:


> I think the concept of it being condescending is a bit rough. We have that stance because we have essentially fighters and not fighters. And even if the guy is great and a credit to the club. If he cant fight. Well he cant fight. But at a belt level I would be more liberal with my definition of effective black belt.
> Actually i might have a better one. To get your bjj black i believe you have to compete?
> 
> This was raised on an ed oneil black belt discussion once. And i believe the argument was well not really because reasons.


 I get your point, and it's a good one.  I'm not saying that you should or shouldn't promote people with disabilities.  What I'm really endorsing is having reasonable standards that can be applied equitably regardless of disability.  It's the fundamental difference between an accommodation and an exception.  An accommodation is a creative way which allows someone with an impairment to meet or exceed standards.  An exception takes the persons outside of standards, which undermines the accomplishment.


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 27, 2015)

Buka said:


> I have no problem with anyone running a dojo and testing any way they want. I have no problem with promoting without testing. If I had to do it all over again, I'd go the no testing route.
> 
> But if there IS testing it's real simple, fellas. Go to class everyday and work your *** off. You'll never have to worry about a test.


 
Yes working hard is important but you also have to work smart. You know what they say, horses work hard. To get to success, you also have to work smart. As I've learned, the road to success is more than just pushing yourself, you also got to be pushing in the right direction and this is why I believe its sometimes appropriate to ask teachers or senseis stuff if you don't understand it.


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## Buka (Jan 27, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Yes working hard is important but you also have to work smart. You know what they say, horses work hard. To get to success, you also have to work smart. As I've learned, the road to success is more than just pushing yourself, you also got to be pushing in the right direction and this is why I believe its sometimes appropriate to ask teachers or senseis stuff if you don't understand it.



I completely agree. 

But you're not speaking of the "when can I test" question, are you?


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## Transk53 (Jan 27, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> This is a good point, though.
> At our dojang, we are willing to promote someone with good understanding but limited physical abilities - we have a woman who is over 70 and currently 2nd Geup. She will never have the physical capabilities of the younger students, but her understanding of not just the material taught but also the principals behind technique is excellent. She will eventually make 1st Dan.
> We have another student (in her 20's) who has decent physical abilities, but her understanding is limited, and will always be limited. She is currently 1st Geup. We've delayed several of her promotions because of her limited understanding. But when her understanding is as good as it's going to get given her limitations, she gets promoted. I expect she will also eventually make 1st Dan.
> I do not think we are exploiting or condescending to either. We're training them to the limits of their physical and intellectual abilities.



Very good to hear that DD!


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## PhotonGuy (Feb 3, 2015)

Buka said:


> I completely agree.
> 
> But you're not speaking of the "when can I test" question, are you?



No, more along the lines of, "what do I need to do to be ready to test," although I wouldn't ask that unless it was already taking me longer than usual to advance in rank and I was unclear as to why. Good questions shouldn't be limited to just that though. If you want to develop a certain technique better or if you're struggling with a technical aspect of the art than maybe you should ask, if you're stuck.


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## Buka (Feb 3, 2015)

I agree, any student should ask an Instructor about anything they have a question on. And the Instructor should help them. That's what instructors are for.


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## PhotonGuy (Mar 10, 2015)

Buka said:


> I agree, any student should ask an Instructor about anything they have a question on. And the Instructor should help them. That's what instructors are for.



Its been awhile since I posted on this thread but Buka, I believe it was you who said that any student at your place who asks questions about belts or rank gets a six month suspension on rank advancement.


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## PhotonGuy (May 23, 2015)

So, in just about every academic class I've taken, when we've got a test coming up, there are some students who will ask the teacher what they need to study to get a good grade on the test. Its usually those students who do get good grades and talking to your teacher about such stuff is usually quite encouraged. Most teachers respect students who ask them what they need to study to get good grades and they respect it when students ask stuff like that. If you ask most teachers what material you need to study they will tell you what material, they will tell you the chapters you need to study, ect. They won't tell you exactly what will be on the test but they will tell you everything you need to study and that is not regarded as spoon feeding in any way, shape, or form.


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## oftheherd1 (May 28, 2015)

Steve said:


> *Promoting someone with a disability above their level of accomplishment, I think it would be patronizing and exploitive.*
> 
> Couple of questions I'd ask if I ran that school.  First, are the qualifications for black belt clear, well defined, objective and fair?  Second, does this child with down's syndrome meet the minimum expectations?
> 
> ...



*Coming from the Hapkido school I learned at, we were told we had to make it work for ourselves; but were taught what through time had been found to be best for most people.  I have seen video of a wheelchair-bound karate student who could take on many people and win.  So do you think there can be no accommodation for those with limited physical or mental abilities?*

Given what I said above, I think you are splitting hairs just a little too fine.  What are the expectations for a wheelchair-bound person, or a child with downs syndrome?  If they learn to use what they are taught, that they can learn and use, is there no room for accommodation?



Steve said:


> If you can fail it, sure, it might be a test.   But this would suggest that a person is taking the test before they're ready.  You said that the Martial Arts model is for a person to take the test only when they're ready.  If they're ready, they can't fail, and therefore aren't taking a test; rather, they are performing a demonstration.



I personally think you are again splitting hairs too fine.  In the Hapkido school I attended, the GM would not test you until he thought you were ready.  He certainly would not send a person to the Hapkido headquarters to fail a black belt test.  Colored belts could be failed, I just never saw it happen.  So it was not necessary to continuously take colored belt tests.  My GM was too good a teacher to allow that to happen.  But I guess every school is allowed to be what it wants to be.

Still, as was said above, any test could be failed, including tests in the school where I went.  But the way it was controlled by my GM, it didn't happen that I know of.

I understand your arguments, but I think you are not willing enough to make accommodations when a person can be a formidable MA with the skills they do have.


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## Steve (May 28, 2015)

oftheherd1 said:


> *Coming from the Hapkido school I learned at, we were told we had to make it work for ourselves; but were taught what through time had been found to be best for most people.  I have seen video of a wheelchair-bound karate student who could take on many people and win.  So do you think there can be no accommodation for those with limited physical or mental abilities?*
> 
> Given what I said above, I think you are splitting hairs just a little too fine.  What are the expectations for a wheelchair-bound person, or a child with downs syndrome?  If they learn to use what they are taught, that they can learn and use, is there no room for accommodation?


I think I must not have been clear, because my point was the opposite.  I think many schools have not considered how to create a promotion structure that can be inclusive, and so resort to meaningless and exploitive exceptions where people with impairments are concerned.  If you create overly concrete and inflexible criteria for promotion, you limit your ability to provide meaningful accommodation for people who are disabled.  AND, there is nothing saying that a person of any ability level, regardless of physical or mental limitation, can enjoy and benefit from training.  My point is that, if the criteria for a pink belt in your style is that a person must do X, Y and Z, you are exploiting the disabled individual for feel good points, and are disrespecting their actual accomplishments.  In my opinion. 

Frankly, styles where the promotion criteria is less rigid allows for more interpretation of the intent.  So, for example, in BJJ, it would not be a big deal for someone who cannot do an armbar from guard to be promoted to blue belt.  While that is a fundamental technique, the promotion structure within BJJ isn't that rigid.  There is plenty of room within the promotion structure to accommodate physical or mental impairments, as there should be.

Conversely, if someone is promoted to blue belt in BJJ, they will have earned it, regardless of physical or mental limitations.  Not everyone will be a black belt in BJJ.  Or a purple belt even.  But what rank is awarded is rank well earned. 

I went back and found this thread.  Just spent a few minutes re-reading it, and it's got a lot of great contributions from people.  I posted many times over the course of the thread, if you want to get a little more insight into where I'm coming from.

Disabled students as black belts MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community


> I personally think you are again splitting hairs too fine.  In the Hapkido school I attended, the GM would not test you until he thought you were ready.  He certainly would not send a person to the Hapkido headquarters to fail a black belt test.  Colored belts could be failed, I just never saw it happen.  So it was not necessary to continuously take colored belt tests.  My GM was too good a teacher to allow that to happen.  But I guess every school is allowed to be what it wants to be.
> 
> Still, as was said above, any test could be failed, including tests in the school where I went.  But the way it was controlled by my GM, it didn't happen that I know of.
> 
> I understand your arguments, but I think you are not willing enough to make accommodations when a person can be a formidable MA with the skills they do have.


I don't think you understand my arguments, but that's likely because I'm being too subtle or am not being clear. 

It's theoretically possible that the Sun will not rise in the East tomorrow.  We don't know everything there is to know about the universe, and it's actually a logical fallacy to conclude for certain that something will happen just because it always has.  But do we truly consider it a possibility?  No.  The sun will rise in the East, set in the West and by your own account, no one will fail their promotion tests.  Just won't be allowed to happen.

So,  if no one fails a test, it's not an actual test. It is a demonstration.  

The actual test sounds like it occurs in the school, over time.  In your situation, the real test sounds like it's a practical test graded by your GM.  Which is fine.  Makes sense.  

If you think it's splitting hairs, fine.  No problem.  I think the distinction is significant and important.


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## PhotonGuy (May 28, 2015)

oftheherd1 said:


> I personally think you are again splitting hairs too fine.  In the Hapkido school I attended, the GM would not test you until he thought you were ready.  He certainly would not send a person to the Hapkido headquarters to fail a black belt test.  Colored belts could be failed, I just never saw it happen.



So to test for a black belt you had to go to the Hapkido headquarters but to test for lower belts it was done at your regular Hapkido studio, is that correct?


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## oftheherd1 (May 29, 2015)

Steve said:


> ...
> 
> The actual test sounds like it occurs in the school, over time.  In your situation, the real test sounds like it's a practical test graded by your GM.  Which is fine.  Makes sense.
> 
> If you think it's splitting hairs, fine.  No problem.  I think the distinction is significant and important.



I guess you could say colored belt tests were over time, observation by the teacher.  There was a practice black belt test prior to the actual black belt test, but I always considered it more for the student to acquire confidence.


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## oftheherd1 (May 29, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> So to test for a black belt you had to go to the Hapkido headquarters but to test for lower belts it was done at your regular Hapkido studio, is that correct?



Yes, that was the way it was normally done.  Is it done differently at your school?  I don't recall what your MA is nor what your experience in it is.  Could you let me know?  I ask because you seem surprised that it would be that way.


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## Buka (May 29, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Its been awhile since I posted on this thread but Buka, I believe it was you who said that any student at your place who asks questions about belts or rank gets a six month suspension on rank advancement.



Sorry about not replying sooner, I just saw it.

I don't test anyone anymore. I sometimes sit in when my guys are testing their students. (my students, by the way, test completely differently than I did) But, yes, when I used to do all testing, if someone asked when they could test I'd tack on six more months. Put a stop to _that_ question being asked. I did that because I didn't want students thinking about what color belt they wore. And - they all knew this up front, I wasn't trying to bust anyone's chops. Also, every six months or so I'd have everyone switch belts for a night, look at themselves in the mirror to see how wonderfully cute they were with a different color belt, then drill (workout) them as hard as I could. 

Sometimes, I'd promote someone without a test. And a "test" was just that. Not everyone passed. (some times because they weren't in the shape I thought necessary - again, they knew this up front) There was also a written test anytime there was testing. Some folks flunked that part. 
Hey, nobody said it was going to be easy.

But if I were to do it all over again, I'd go the BJJ route concerning belts for my Karate students. I like it better.


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## PhotonGuy (May 29, 2015)

oftheherd1 said:


> Yes, that was the way it was normally done.  Is it done differently at your school?  I don't recall what your MA is nor what your experience in it is.  Could you let me know?  I ask because you seem surprised that it would be that way.


At my school all belt tests are done right there at the studio, including black belt tests and all tests for proceeding black belt degrees (2nd degree, 3rd degree, ect.) My school is independent and not part of a larger organization so there wouldn't be any other place to hold belt tests. I do know some places which are part of larger organizations hold their black belt tests at specialized locations, usually a central headquarters of some sort, while lower belt tests are done right at the studio without having to go to any central headquarters. Your school sounds like such a place.


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## oftheherd1 (May 29, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> At my school all belt tests are done right there at the studio, including black belt tests and all tests for proceeding black belt degrees (2nd degree, 3rd degree, ect.) My school is independent and not part of a larger organization so there wouldn't be any other place to hold belt tests. I do know some places which are part of larger organizations hold their black belt tests at specialized locations, usually a central headquarters of some sort, while lower belt tests are done right at the studio without having to go to any central headquarters. Your school sounds like such a place.



If you have no affiliations I could see how that would be.  In Korea, I think most schools would be part of a larger organization.  That was certainly true when I was there studying, and certainly true for my GM's schools.  His son has a school here in the States and while his father was alive, I suspect he did the BB testing with his father.  Since his father (My GM) has passed, he may be doing it on his own, but I don't know.


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## PhotonGuy (May 29, 2015)

Buka said:


> But, yes, when I used to do all testing, if someone asked when they could test I'd tack on six more months. Put a stop to _that_ question being asked. I did that because I didn't want students thinking about what color belt they wore. And - they all knew this up front, I wasn't trying to bust anyone's chops.


This does sound contrary to what you said earlier. Before in this thread you posted this:


Buka said:


> I agree, any student should ask an Instructor about anything they have a question on. And the Instructor should help them. That's what instructors are for.


You said that any student should ask an instructor about anything they have a question on. And from what you said in that post, that would include questions about rank. Yet, when you used to test, any student who asked a question about rank would get a six month rank suspension, so it sounds to me like you're contradicting yourself.

Anyway, in school lets say a student asks a question about grades. Just for asking a question about grades the teacher gives the student one letter grade lower for their class grade. So an A becomes a B, a B becomes a C, ect. What would you think of that?


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## Buka (May 30, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> This does sound contrary to what you said earlier. Before in this thread you posted this:
> 
> You said that any student should ask an instructor about anything they have a question on. And from what you said in that post, that would include questions about rank. Yet, when you used to test, any student who asked a question about rank would get a six month rank suspension, so it sounds to me like you're contradicting yourself.
> 
> Anyway, in school lets say a student asks a question about grades. Just for asking a question about grades the teacher gives the student one letter grade lower for their class grade. So an A becomes a B, a B becomes a C, ect. What would you think of that?



More of the exception to the rule, really. And again, all students knew the rules going in. In fifteen years in that particular dojo, I can only remember three students who messed up in that particular regard, and one was on purpose.

There were a lot of rules in place that I don't think you would have liked. It wasn't exactly a day at the beach.
Not all schools are for all people. But I would have loved for you to ask when you would be tested.


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## PhotonGuy (May 30, 2015)

Buka said:


> More of the exception to the rule, really. And again, all students knew the rules going in. In fifteen years in that particular dojo, I can only remember three students who messed up in that particular regard, and one was on purpose.
> 
> There were a lot of rules in place that I don't think you would have liked. It wasn't exactly a day at the beach.
> Not all schools are for all people. But I would have loved for you to ask when you would be tested.


Sounds more like the military to me. As for asking, if it had been longer than usual wasn't sure why I wasn't testing I would ask. Hopefully, for whatever reason I wasn't testing, I would be able to fix it in six months.


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## Buka (May 31, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Sounds more like the military to me. As for asking, if it had been longer than usual wasn't sure why I wasn't testing I would ask. Hopefully, for whatever reason I wasn't testing, I would be able to fix it in six months.



I don't know, I never served.

And, actually, I think you would have done just fine there. I think you would have liked it overall.


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## PhotonGuy (May 31, 2015)

Buka said:


> I don't know, I never served.
> 
> And, actually, I think you would have done just fine there. I think you would have liked it overall.



Perhaps, although not asking about rank can be a catch 22 in some situations.


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## drop bear (May 31, 2015)

Buka said:


> I don't know, I never served.
> 
> And, actually, I think you would have done just fine there. I think you would have liked it overall.



And I think you do choose to apply for rank in the army. There are pathways for advancement.


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## PhotonGuy (Jun 17, 2015)

Sometime back, it was pointed out that a main difference between an A and a black belt, aside from the A being applied to academics and the black belt being used martial arts, is that an A is a one time performance, its a mark of performance on a test a student takes. A black belt on the other hand is a result of accumulated knowledge and skill over years of hard training, it is not based on a student's performance in one test the way an A is. 
I can see how they differ like that but I think a more accurate comparison would be an A not just on one test but on an entire semester, class, or year. At the end of each semester you get a grade for each class based on your average performance in the class. All the tests and grades you got are averaged out for your overall grade. At the end of your high school and college careers you get a GPA based on your overall performance with a 4.0 being an A. That I would say would be a better comparison as an academic equivalent to black belt.


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## Emilee <3 (Mar 25, 2016)

tshadowchaser said:


> Ok
> Lets discuss academic testing vs the testing of martial arts students. Should one or the other or both only be test when they are ready?
> Should there be a standard for testing one or both?.  If an academic student was not ready or never ready what should be done with that person and the same for the martial student?




In both situations, you should train/study so that you know your stuff. On testing days, my master always says that you wouldn't be here if you weren't ready. School assessments are different, however. Teachers only have a certain amount of time to teach and test students on a certain material, so at least in my school, if you're lagging behind the class, it's up to you to come before or after school to get extra help. This is why academic tests can't be assigned to each individual student when he/she is ready. Martial arts is a personal (and sometimes lifelong) journey that takes longer for some than others to reach their goals, so if you test later than others, it's okay. Just train and practice lots and you'll reach your goals!


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 27, 2020)

I know its been a long time since anybody posted in this thread and there might be some people who will fuss about me doing this, but I am going to post here and get this thread active again.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 27, 2020)

PhotonGuy said:


> I know its been a long time since anybody posted in this thread and there might be some people who will fuss about me doing this, but I am going to post here and get this thread active again.


Did you have something to add to it?


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## PhotonGuy (Feb 1, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Did you have something to add to it?


Yes I do. First of all, considering everything I've ever said on this forum about belts or rank.





     Now that that's done with I will get down to business. Lets say there's a student in high school or college whose taking Calculus. Now lets say the student says to their teacher that they want to get an A in the class and they ask their teacher what they need to do to get an A. I think most people would agree with me that there is nothing wrong with that.

     By the same token lets say a brown belt student in a martial arts school asks their instructor what they need to do to get a black belt. There should be nothing wrong with a martial arts student asking that any more than there should be anything wrong with a Calculus student asking what they need to do to get an A in the class.


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## Tez3 (Feb 1, 2020)

PhotonGuy said:


> I think most people would agree with me that there is nothing wrong with that.




Actually I would disagree if it's quite clearly laid out in the syllabus what a student needs to get a specific grade.



PhotonGuy said:


> By the same token lets say a brown belt student in a martial arts school asks their instructor what they need to do to get a black belt.



Again if it's in the syllabus what *you need* to be able to do, why would you need to ask? Asking if the instructor thinks you are good enough yet to pass is an entirely reasonable question but not what you need to do if it's clearly stated.

In most places you have a list of techniques, kata etc that you need to be able to do well to pass a specific grade. *That's what you need to do.*
Whether you are good enough to pass is a different thing, you may know all the techniques and katas, even spar quite well but are you good enough to pass? the answer invariably is, if not practice more then some more until you are good enough. Simple.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 1, 2020)

PhotonGuy said:


> Yes I do. First of all, considering everything I've ever said on this forum about belts or rank.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This sounds like a rehash of at least one other thread. I think most folks have said there's not a problem with this, conceptually. In some specific schools, there may be specific etiquette around it, and how it's approached will always matter. But generally, there shouldn't be an issue.

That said, if the student is just managing to pass a 200-level math class, and asks what it takes to get their math degree soon, they're getting ahead of themselves.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 1, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> Actually I would disagree if it's quite clearly laid out in the syllabus what a student needs to get a specific grade.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think the analogy doesn't hold up around this part of it. In MA, there is more ambiguity. If there's a kata involved, the student may not be sure whether their demonstration is good enough, and would benefit by asking what they need to work on to pass. Same for demonstrating technique, etc.


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## Tez3 (Feb 1, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> I think the analogy doesn't hold up around this part of it. In MA, there is more ambiguity. If there's a kata involved, the student may not be sure whether their demonstration is good enough, and would benefit by asking what they need to work on to pass. Same for demonstrating technique, etc.




Nope, if they know what kata/s they have to do for their grading then they know what they have to do for their grading. As I said before the question  actually is 'am I good enough to grade' not 'what do I have to do to grade' Two very different questions.

Question: what do I have to do to grade to purple belt?
Answer: you have to do the number ten kata.


Question: am I good enough to grade to purple belt
Answer: No
Question: what do I need to work to make better?
Answer:  this, this and this.

Question: Am I good enough to grade to purple?
Answer: yes
Reply: thank you..... goes off to practice even more.


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## isshinryuronin (Feb 1, 2020)

In academic school, time frames are set in semesters and tests are taken by the whole class.  Every year, each student advances to the next grade with rare exceptions.   GPA's may vary, but almost all graduated, massed produced.  Social norms rule.  Teachers who hold students accountable are disciplined.  Woe to them if they try to flunk a student.  A high school diploma from most USA public schools, nowadays, does not insure reading ability, being able to find Spain or the Pacific Ocean on a map, or any other academic skill.  All one can glean from such a certificate is that the kid spent 3 (4) years sitting at a desk.

Martial art instruction was a more master/disciple set up.  The idea was to develop skills, not just do time.  So promoting based on time spent was not the major consideration.  Instructors once had reputations to uphold.  They had standards.  If the student met them, they got promoted - if not, they did not pass.  Yes, these days there may be business considerations and retention concerns, but few schools will suffer by having black belts that are highly proficient.  Test advanced students when they are ready. 

Or skip formal testing and give the belt when you, as the instructor, deem it time.  Lack of ego and patience is part of advanced karate skills.  So much for automatic testing and promotions.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 1, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> Nope, if they know what kata/s they have to do for their grading then they know what they have to do for their grading. As I said before the question  actually is 'am I good enough to grade' not 'what do I have to do to grade' Two very different questions.
> 
> Question: what do I have to do to grade to purple belt?
> Answer: you have to do the number ten kata.
> ...


Ah, reasonable point. I don't as readily differentiate those two questions, though you're absolutely correct that they're actually two different questions. If a student asks me what they need to do to be ready to test, I'll more likely tell them what they need work on, rather than repeat the testing requirements. That's probably because I'd be more likely to also ask that question incorrectly.


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## isshinryuronin (Feb 2, 2020)

Buka said:


> If I had to do it all over again, I'd go the no testing route.


Some overlap with my previous recent post, but emphasizes some points more eloquently.

Back in the old days (even before my time) when it was a master/disciple situation, the teacher was able to intimately know each student's abilities.  There were no scheduled test dates and I suspect that time played no part in advancement.  Knowledge and skills and spirit were all that counted, even after colored belt ranks were created.  Of course, in modern times, belt tests = test fees.  And I think the modern Western student mind-set expects, and maybe even wants, a test (getting their money's worth with the excitement and ceremony of testing).

Taking all things into account, I agree with Buka.  I would, however, test for the first level of the rank before brown/red, as well as the first level of those colors and first degree black, mainly due to the amount of material needing to be covered.  Other than that, I would just tell the student, "good work, you've been promoted."   This goes for ni-dan and up as well.

When I was 16, the dojo was my home away from home (I didn't have much of a life outside of this).  That summer, I biked to the dojo almost every afternoon to practice.  Sensei was there, but pretty much left me to my solo practice.  Towards the end of summer, in the middle of my workout, I noticed Sensei watching me.  "Do Seiuchin again," he told me.  Then, "Show me Naihanchi."  Afterwards, he said, "You're blue belt now," an advancement of 3 belt levels.   It seems Sensei had been keeping an occasional eye on me all along.  I must say, that after many belts and dans, I felt more satisfaction from that promotion than ANY other.

I won't even get into automatic promotions.  OK, I will.  The very concept, IMO, is ******!  (fill in your favorite profanity)


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## dvcochran (Feb 23, 2020)

PhotonGuy said:


> Yes I do. First of all, considering everything I've ever said on this forum about belts or rank.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



There are so many ways this can go wrong, most of them the very reasons students do not ask. 

No, I do not think there is anything 'supernatural' in any instructor. Yes, I Do think it is important do have appropriate decorum in a school, especially with children and even young adults at times. (hell, some older adults at times). 
I agree with others that most well established schools are going to have some or all of the advancement details in their curriculum. Pretty straight forward in written word. Not always fully comprehended it whole picture.

So now you get in to all the dynamics that may be at play. 
The easiest and most common occurrence is the "I thought/You thought" scenario. I thought I put in enough time. I thought I knew all the curriculum. I this. I that. 
This happens too often with kids who do not pay attention or parents who are disengaged and do not know what is going on with their own child. Yes, it even happens to some adults. 

More than once I have had to explain to people that paying their tuition is not paying their dues. Payment does Not guarantee advancement. 

Self reflection can be very fickle. Rose colored glasses will make a person think they are ready for things that they are not. That things are on track because they 'want' them to be on track. 

Hopefully the situation you are enquiring about it a good one and the instructor knows exactly where and what you are in your MA journey. Especially in TMA, some people need to 'steep' longer than others. 
I have known tremendously physically capable people who would crack and loose composure way too easily. If a naked eye compared their technique to someone else's it may be seen as equivalent but there are so many more layers.  I hope you know there is a morality to learning a martial art.


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## PhotonGuy (Feb 27, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> *There are so many ways this can go wrong, most of them the very reasons students do not ask.*


So are you saying that students should be quiet? That they should say nothing? That is one of the worst things a student can do.


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## dvcochran (Feb 27, 2020)

PhotonGuy said:


> So are you saying that students should be quiet? That they should say nothing? That is one of the worst things a student can do.


I forget, what post number did I say that in regards to?


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## PhotonGuy (Aug 2, 2020)

PhotonGuy said:


> So are you saying that students should be quiet? That they should say nothing? That is one of the worst things a student can do.


Post #59


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