# Aikido and Judo



## Koga-Shinobi (Oct 24, 2002)

Hey guys, I just wanted your opinion...do you think Aikido and judo complment each other well? I thinking of starting Aikido, and at my club they do judo as well. Do you think they go well together, would you recommend or not starting them both together. I'm not too familiar with Judo, all I know of it is that it is a grappling art, very sports/competition orientated (do they have forms and kata's as well?).

Any advice or ideas would be appreciated.


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## Bod (Oct 24, 2002)

I'd think they would complement each other well.

Judo, although sports oriented, is sport oriented _grappling_. It is quite a meaty martial art, and you get lots of hands on experience doing most moves just as you'd do them on the street.

The sport orientation of Judo is not the problem. The main lack in Judo is that it doen't teach strikes or kicks. They are in the kata, which rarely if ever get taught, but if you want to learn to strike go somewhere else.

The other downside is the amount of injuries you will get. Full on sparring (randori) will leave your fingers and toes, not to mention your shoulders and knees in some state of disrepair. If I'd had no injuries I would have easily doubled my training time over the last two years.

Upsides are that you do learn to grapple. Your stand up grappling will be at least as good as any other system, and you'll learn all the BJJ groundfighting moves (except for omo plata) just slower, and in a less organised fashion. 

Also I've lost much of my fear of physical confrontation, because in Judo you pull the guy to you rather than trying to keep him away with long range attacks. You'll learn to get knocked down, have your breath knocked out of you, and get back up and go again, another important fighting lesson.

Judo will ingrain some of the Aikido footwork into you too, and teach you about your opponent's flow and balance.


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## Koga-Shinobi (Oct 24, 2002)

My concern Bod is that having made it very much a sport MA, it has lost alot of its vicious/lethal/dangerous techniques that were found in ju jitsu. In addition, a number of other changes to make it more accesible to the sporting fraternity. Does this in anyway change its effectiveness in self-defense? Although I'd do judo to help complement and supplement my Aikido training, I'd do it for the sport as well (I'm very competitive...unfortunately Aikido isnt competitive and doesnt have competitions)...but I'd also like to beleive that it would have its use on the street in a self-defense scenario. In your opinion does it, or is it moved so far along that it is not just applicable for fighting on the mat?

A bit of a contentious issue I know, but I'm sort of trying to find out everything I can before joining.

And secondly, would the throws and take-downs used in judo be similar to those in Aikido (having the same heritage), or would they tend to be more aggressive/physical/forceful?

Thanks bod! And anybody else too, please..you're opinions would be greatly appreciated!


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## Yari (Oct 24, 2002)

In our Aikido styl we do "judo" throws. So the answer would be yes. But it depends on style and how you incorperate them with each other. It's got to be done by the principles of each style, or they will conflict.


/Yari


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## Koga-Shinobi (Oct 24, 2002)

The style Aikido they're teaching is Aikikai..very non-aggressive, ie. once thrown an opponent down, you do not "finish him off" with a strike or break. Thats where I agree with you Yari, where Judo could come into it, by putting an arm-lock or strangle-hold on.

Bottom line, is Judo street effective??? Touchy question, I know...your ideas though?


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## Yari (Oct 24, 2002)

If I understand correctly Aikikai is an org. not a style. Mostly it means that the club is organized under the rules of Aikikai.

So what your asking is is judo street effective, so you can 'make' aikido more stree effective?

In my world that doesn't fit. It's like asking if I can drive my car in england, eventhough the steering wheel is on the other side. Really depends on the perosn, doesn't it?

Are you lookingfor an effective style? Is that why you are asking these questions?

/Yari


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## Koga-Shinobi (Oct 24, 2002)

No Yari, not at all....I firmly believe that Aikido alone is effective enought (given sufficient years of experience). I was suggesting that Judo would be a nice supplement to Aikido, having got your opponent to the ground with a throw etc. 

My question about the Judo being street effective, was for Judo alone...not taking Aikido into account. Judo on its own, being highyl modified to the sporting environment surely must have lost some of its street-efffectiveness? Perhaps not? I by know means know much about Judo, thats why I'm here in the forums, tryin to scrounge out the truth, so to speak 

No offense Yari, I appreciate your answers. Just need to clarify my questions a little better I think


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## Yari (Oct 24, 2002)

No offence taken, just wondering. Because I didn't understand were you were going.

I would then go on to say that judo is just as effektive as aikido.


/Yari


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## Bod (Oct 24, 2002)

I'd say the groundwork is less street effective than the standing work. You can be seriously open to bites an nutgrabs in some, but not all of, the holds. And then there is the obvious multiple attackers thing.

The more traditional throwing and gripping styles tend to be more street effective than the more modern stuff, so it will depend on the bent of your teacher. For instance, high up holds expose you to devastating underarmpit strikes that the traditional grip doesn't. Makikomi throws where you hurl yourself to the floor are dangerous without a mat but are rarely taught to beginners anyway. Leg grabs, often eschewed by traditionalists, expose you to strikes to the head.

Many bouncers swear by Judo, but then again they often have more of a restraining role rather than attacking. Judo is in it's element for this sort of thing.

Overall, I'd consider Judo to be possibly the most street effective of all sport styles. The reason I say this is that the most dangerous fights are the ones which start with you being grabbed, because you have no time to react. You can often run from a fight that starts with a punch.

I'm not saying that Judo is the most effective style, but that the difference between the moves you do (in standing work at least) on the mat, and what you would do in the street is minimal. There is no pulling of punches in Judo sparring (randori), so you learn quickly. Your partner is never compliant during randori, so you grow a greater confidence in your ability to pull off your technique in the heat of the moment.

Given that I still practice my kung fu striking every night.


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## Abbax8 (Oct 24, 2002)

As a judoka with 35 years training, may I say that if your study of judo would train you in the throws of the first three sets of 8, you would have a very effective street lethal set of skills. Combine this with arm locks and hadaka jime ( a choke) and you are pretty well set. Judo divides its throws into 5 sets of 8, plus an additional 25 others. The idea is the first set of throws are easiest to learn, followed by the second, etc. The interesting thing is in the first set you learn De Ashi Harai, advanced foot sweep- very good for a quick take down without killing someone. O Soto Gari- a leg reap to the rear that if done with force on a hard floor may very well end any fight. Seoi Nage- commonly called shoulder throw- good for defense against a rear attack. In the second set is Tai Otoshi- the body drop- a very hard fall that can also break your foes leg if executed correctly. Koshi Guruma- a hip throw from essentially a head lock- many possibilities.  Kata Guruma- a fireman's carry throw useful if you find yourself on your knees in front of your opponent. These are just illustrations done briefly. Many of these can be combined with each other adding to their versatility. Then add the joint locks and chokes and for good measure a kick to the knee which is also judo. Hope this helps.

                                                                    Peace
                                                                     Dennis


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## Koga-Shinobi (Oct 25, 2002)

Hmmm...interesting comment there Abbax...I'm not too familiar with Judo...do you train with strikes (kicks and punches) and how to defend against them in Judo?? Are strikes part of the syllabus or do you just learn to defend against them? The reason I say interesting is that I though Judo was very much defense against grabs, not actual strikes?


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## Bod (Oct 25, 2002)

Strikes and kicks are in the judo sylabus but are rarely trained.

Judo's beauty (and yes once you've tried it you'll understand why I say beauty) is it's standing throws.

I forgot to mention that judoka constantly practise their standing techniques at full speed on a resisting opponent. They use full power right up to the last moment (the polite judoka do anyway). In competition they go all the way, driving their opponent into the mat.

Despite all this high speed, high power activity a beautiful throw still looks and feels beautiful.

Check out www.judoinfo.com and you'll see what I mean.

Go for it and do the judo as well as the aikido. You will not regret it.


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## Abbax8 (Oct 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Koga-Shinobi _
> 
> *Hmmm...interesting comment there Abbax...I'm not too familiar with Judo...do you train with strikes (kicks and punches) and how to defend against them in Judo?? Are strikes part of the syllabus or do you just learn to defend against them? The reason I say interesting is that I though Judo was very much defense against grabs, not actual strikes? *



Yes, in my class we train with strikes and kicks. There is a judo kata called Seirokyu Zenyo Tokumin Keiko - National Physical Exercises for Fitness, or some such translation. It is all punching and kicking drills designed for conditioning. It is a regular part of our warmup. Also in training throws I will also teach defense against a punch or kick, or baseball belt, ending with a throw and lock or strike. This training is usually done at less than full speed for safety. Also each partner knows what the other is going to do. I'm contemplating in the future adding a randori with punches and kicks. I teach at a TKD school so I have access to all the body protection suits if I choose to use them.

                                                                Peace
                                                                  Dennis


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## Aegis (Oct 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Abbax8 _
> 
> *......Also in training throws I will also teach defense against a punch or kick, or baseball belt, ending with a throw and lock or strike....*



I like that! Punches, kicks and the occasional baseball bat....  

Not criticising at all, in fact I think all Judo clubs should teach the traditional elements of the art.


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