# Grandmasters...



## GouRonin (Oct 30, 2001)

Exactly how many grandmasters does this art have and why is it every single guy I met teaching seems to have worked for the Olympic team in some manner or taught Korea's special forces? Does Korea even have special forces?

I am beginning to suspect that merely flying across the ocean means a 2 dan rank promotion for some of these guys...


----------



## Cthulhu (Oct 30, 2001)

I guess it depends on the organization.  TKD, like most other martial arts, has been fractured into various splinter groups.  ITA, ITF, WTA, WTF, WWF D)

One also has to remember that a black belt usually doesn't have the same significance in Korea or Japan as it does in the U.S.  In those countries, a black belt often means that one has adequately learned the basics.  From that point, _real_ learning begins.  For a time, it was possible to go to Korea or Japan, earn a first degree black belt from anywhere between 6 months to 1.5 years, and come back to the U.S. to open a school and teach an unsuspecting public.  Very often, these people would magically gain a degree or three of rank on the plane ride back to the States.

Back when I was a green belt, my instructor went to a Goju school and had a friendly sparring match with the 5th dan instructor.  He told me _I_ could've taken the guy.  That doesn't say anything negative about Goju-ryu (I've seen 2nd and 3rd dans that scare the bejeezus outta me), but just shows that the fella my instructor sparred probably didn't earn that rank.  He just may be an example of the magical mystery rank inflation that occurs over the Pacific at about 20,000 feet.

Luckily, it seems this practice has died down considerably in recent times, since the number of competent martial artists in North America has grown quite a bit.

Cthulhu


----------



## bscastro (Oct 31, 2001)

There are many different styles of Tae Kwon Do. Just to say Karate is not descriptive enough. I think each style probably has their way of promoting. Of course, the title many times is just because someone called someone that. I think because of these different styles and splintering as was mentioned in another post many instructors are able to do this. 

Also, I'm guessing with regard to claims such as having trained special forces and all of that is sometimes exaggerated. For example, if an instructor had a military guy come in and take a couple classes, he can say, "I've trained the military." 

For students, I think it's a case of researching a potential instructor's background and also trying out the class to see if they enjoy it and feel they benefit from it. Some of the best instructors have no special titles and are just good martial artists.

Bryan


----------



## Cthulhu (Oct 31, 2001)

I trained with my instructor on a military base and for a time we had an active Navy SEAL in the class.  However, my instructor _never_ used that to promote himself or the school. He may tell somebody that he had a Navy SEAL in the class, but he would never be foolish enough to say that he trained Navy SEALs.  Hell, we had a military cop in the class as well.  It would have been so easy for him to say he was a trainer of Special Forces personnel and military law enforcement.  Of course, he never did and never would stoop to that level.

Cthulhu


----------



## Dronak (Oct 31, 2001)

First, I'm new here and to martial arts having just started taking a class in kung fu this semester.  I'm aware of the obvious style difference  , so take the following for what it's worth.  In my class, the teacher seems to use the terms "master" and "grandmaster" in the generational sense rather than an acheivement level sense.  E.g., he says that his master is our grandmaster or that he never knew his grandmaster (his master's master).  On the belt/ranking thing, he told us that in traditional Chinese martial arts there is no belt ranking system.  I got the sense that it was to make you focus on just plain learning rather than trying to get to the next level and getting complacent upon reaching black belt status.  We're all going to get belts as part of our uniform though and our master wants us all to have black belts since they don't get as dirty as quickly.    Just an amusing aside.


----------



## Cthulhu (Oct 31, 2001)

Yes, traditionally Chinese martial arts do not have belt rankings.  They seem to use a seniority system, where basically the person that has been there longer than you is senior to you.  The 'rankings' use familial terms, for example:

si gung: your teacher's teacher (your 'grandfather')

si hing: male who has been in class longer than you (your 'older brother')

si je: female who has been in class longer than you (your 'older sister')

si bak: your teachers si hing (your 'uncle')

and so on.

Traditionally, you show respect and defer to you seniors.  This is what got Bruce Lee in trouble in Yip Man's Wing Chun class.  He was constantly challenging his seniors (big no-no).  The problem was, the few who did accept his challenges usually got beaten.  This prompted them to get Lee kicked out of Yip Man's school. Skill doesn't really have much impact in this type of structure, though it is assumed that your si hings and sifu will be more skilled than yourself.

:soapbox:

As for the terms 'master' and 'grandmaster'...I believe that these are never something one calls oneself.  I am automatically wary of anyone advertising themself as a 'master' or 'grandmaster'.  Worse are the people who introduce themselves as 'Master Schmuckety Schmuck' or 'Grandmaster Iwantyourmoney'.  Those terms are something bestowed upon you by others.  They are not titles, like Doctor, Captain, Professor, etc.  
If I ever called myself 'master' or 'grandmaster', I hope my instructor hunts me down and beats the holy crap out of me.

However, if one feels the title is deserved, one can always refer to someone else as 'master' or 'grandmaster'.  Again, this is an acceptable use of the terms since one is calling someone else that term, rather then using it for oneself.

I should point out that, generally speaking, heads of systems are designated 'grandmaster' by default.  You just have to make sure that the system is legitimate and not something cooked up overnight by someone who just wanted to inflate their rank.  Like I've said in previous posts, these people often end up exposing themselves for the phonies that they are eventually.

At any rate, these are just my addle-brained opinions and should be taken with a grain of salt...or a salt lick. 

Cthulhu


----------



## GouRonin (Oct 31, 2001)

I too would like to see your instructor hunt you down and beat the holy crap out of you.
:hammer:

No reason really, I'd just like to see it.


----------



## Cthulhu (Oct 31, 2001)

See? THIS is why Kenpogirl should strive to kick your @$$!  

Actually, I'd like my instructor to hunt me down as well.  It's been ages since I've been in a decent sparring match!

Cthulhu

One more thing: :fart:


----------



## GouRonin (Oct 31, 2001)

Unfortunately there is a line up to kick my @ss. Some how I never seem to run out of people wanting to do so.:lol:


----------



## Dronak (Oct 31, 2001)

Cthulhu, that's what I've gathered from what our master told us, that there's more of a seniority system in place.  Once he gave a sort of brief talk about generations and groups for the lineage/history of the art.  (As I recall, he said he was 13th generation, 15th group for the style he's teaching us, but I could be wrong.)  He mentioned that each generation has to respect the ones that came and each group has to respect the ones that came before.  He said within a group it goes by age, so younger students have to respect the older ones even though they may have all started training at the same time.  We're all new, so I'm sure he'll be telling us more things like this, the traditions and culture that are as much of the art as the moves.

Also, to the best of my recollection, he has never called himself "master".  Other students have done so, probably mainly ones who studied other martial arts before, and I think the rest of us are following suit.  He usually says things like "my master" or "your grandmaster" but never said something like "your master" to refer to himself.  I suspect he'd agree with you, that "master" is not a title you bestow upon yourself, but is something that your students give to you out of respect.


----------



## GouRonin (Oct 31, 2001)

I have a friend who is black and he told me it'll be a cold day in hell before he calls any teacher "master" heh heh heh...

He goes with "Sir" or "Mr."


----------



## Dronak (Oct 31, 2001)

To each his own.    Personally, I tend to adapt to whatever I'm doing.  Learning a martial art from a different culture means learning some of that culture and their traditions, too, so I'm willing to go along with them.  If I had strong objections to something though, I wouldn't go along with it.  But for the most part, I'm cool with adjusting to things.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Oct 31, 2001)

Personally, I have a problem calling anyone 'master'...but no problem calling en Sensei, or Sifu, or whatever the arts title is.  Maybe I'm just weird.


----------



## Cthulhu (Oct 31, 2001)

Someone would have to be MIGHTY impressive for me to call them 'master'.  However, that could be the jaded American in me 

My instructor never insisted on calling him 'sensei', 'sifu', or 'sir'.  I always called him by his first name.  He knew I respected his ability and knowledge; he didn't need me to give him some title to know that.

This is not to say that I wouldn't call another instructor 'sifu' or 'sensei' if that were the protocol in the school.  It's just that my instructor wasn't particularly concerned with titles.  As long as you didn't walk around calling him 'Hey, dip$|-|it', he was cool about it 

Cthulhu


----------



## Rob_Broad (Jan 14, 2002)

I was once told the story of the WTF TKD boom in the 80's I will retell it here for all of you.  The korean governament has a mandatory military service policy for all males.  These young men were given a chance to go to Kookiwon when there hitch was finished in the military.  These guys went into an course that taught them business/marketing and TKD.  When they graduated from Kookiwon they were herded on to planes as first degree blackbelts.  As the plane finally lifted off they were promoted to 2nd Degree Balck belt.  At the International Dateline they were all promoted to 3rd Degree Black Belt..  When the plane reached the coast of North America the these guys were promoted to 4th Degree Black Belt.  When the plane touched down the person was then promoted to 5th Degree Black Belt.  If the person could walk of the plane and say their name in english they were promoted to 6th Degree Black Belt.

That is why all the yellow page ads say the same thing.  They all have taught the military.  They all are Xtime world championships, because if you go to the world championship in Korea you are a world champion.

Hope you enjoyed the story as I was told.


----------



## arnisador (Jan 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Cthulhu _
> *For a time, it was possible to go to Korea or Japan, earn a first degree black belt from anywhere between 6 months to 1.5 years, and come back to the U.S. to open a school and teach an unsuspecting public.*



I think this was common for GIs who studied in the 50s and 60s--it often took about a year to get a black belt. I am not sure why this was so, or what exactly has changed.

But back to the original topic of the thread (sort of): How many styles of TKD, with their own heads/grandmasters, are there?


----------



## deadhand31 (Jan 31, 2002)

Well, it's hard to say. I'm not sure how the term "Grandmaster" is used in other styles. From what I've seen, a Grandmaster is one who heads up a group of schools. In the midwest, I know of 2 Grandmasters. One is my grandmaster, Chom Son Cho, who is ranked ninth degree by the kukkiwon (no jokes, rob). I know in Wisconsin there is another 8th degree somewhere in Appleton, but I'm not sure of his certification. There used to be Grandmaster Yoon, another ninth degree, but he died a long time ago. As for anyone else, i'm not sure. (however, i have seen some grandmasters in what they themselves have called Karate-Taekwondo, which really makes me wonder how they combine an internal and external art together) oh well.


----------



## arnisador (Jan 31, 2002)

Yes, even the term _Grandmaster_ has been devalued to the point where we now have Supreme Grandmasters as opposed to just plain old run-of-the-mill Grandmasters.

I much prefer saving Grandmaster for the head of the system only, personally.


----------



## tshadowchaser (Jan 31, 2002)

Not sure how many grandmasters there are in TKD but I was looking in the phone books for Boston and NYC and I belive I counted no less than 9 in those two areas.
I can understand being called a grandmaster if youare truly the head man/woman in a system.Trouble is all of these systems that break with the main system and need a new head. 
I remember when I studies TKD the three people I studied under at diffrent times all had diffrent grandmasters and they where not even the head ( or president) of the organisation
Shadow


----------



## Cthulhu (Jan 31, 2002)

Is it possible that the term 'grandmaster' is a Western invention?  This is they way I see it:

A high-ranked Asian instructor has introduced a system to the West.  He is very likely not fluent in English.  This instructor refers to his instructor as his 'master'.  The Western students interpret this as 'grand-master', as in 'grandfather'.

Probably totally wrong, but very plausible, in my opinion.  The thing is, most of the terms associated with 'grandmaster' don't actually translate into 'grandmaster'.  Sigung, O-sensei, soke, hanshi...none of these terms translate directly to 'grandmaster', which is why I think the term is a Western invention.

Cthulhu


----------



## RCastillo (Mar 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> 
> *Exactly how many grandmasters does this art have and why is it every single guy I met teaching seems to have worked for the Olympic team in some manner or taught Korea's special forces? Does Korea even have special forces?
> 
> I am beginning to suspect that merely flying across the ocean means a 2 dan rank promotion for some of these guys... *



Well, for those of that don't know, Gou is actually, "Lord Ronin" of Canada, and not only that, he controls it as well. And he didn't even have to fly across any oceans!


----------



## Ty K. Doe (Mar 29, 2002)

It seems there's been a few names thrown around naming Grandmasters.  So far, I am amazed that no one has mentioned, Grandmaster Jhoon Rhee, the father of American Tae Kwon Do.

Instead of making a lengthy reply, I'm just going to say that I can't believe some of the disrespectful crap some of you terds are spouting off about a title someone has worked many many years and very hard for.  I guarantee 99% of you have a goal of achieving black belt and I know your looking forward to one day being called a "Black Belt" wether you deserve it or not.


----------



## Ty K. Doe (Mar 29, 2002)

By the way, my last reply only applies to a couple of you not everyone.  I just wanted to clarify that so everybody on this thread wouldn't start jumping down my throat.


----------



## arnisador (Mar 29, 2002)

Grandmaster means different things in different arts; to those in arts with only one Grandmaster, at the top, it seems odd to have multiple GMs within an art.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Mar 29, 2002)

I would love to see a lineage tree and an explaination on how each individual came to Grandmaster status.

I expect that depending on the art, I'd have a headache. 

I think it would break down though to a few variations:

an inovator who combined several into one art

the dedicated life long student who has mastered and gone beyond.


There will also be the guys who just ran off a cert on their PC and called themselves a gm.  Personally, I like the other 2 better.


----------



## Ty K. Doe (Mar 30, 2002)

> I would love to see a lineage tree and an explaination on how each individual came to Grandmaster status.



The way that I understand it is that the title status has to do the amount of time you put into your training.

Once you become a black belt, there are time limitations on when you are able to make your next advancement.  In some cases you must wait 10 years between advancement.  So before you you can attain some titles you must be practicing a min. of twenty years.

Again, that is the way I understand it. Some styles may have adaptations to their requirements.  However, given the fact that so much time and effort must be given to achieve a certain status is most definitely an achievement and is worth the respect the title offers.  It is sad that so many people are self-appointed masters or grandmasters that in many cases the title has lost its stature to so many.  But you can always spot a fraud if some 30 year old person is claiming to be grandmaster.  I would even be skepticle if anyone under 50 was claiming to be a grandmaster.


----------



## WaterCircleHarmony (May 19, 2002)

so if i practice chunji for 20 years i can be called the 

"GRANDMASTER OF CHUNJI!!"- i have the power!

no just kiddin


----------



## GouRonin (May 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> *Well, for those of that don't know, Gou is actually, "Lord Ronin" of Canada, and not only that, he controls it as well. And he didn't even have to fly across any oceans!*



I'm pretty down to earth though so you don't have to call me _"Lord"_ at all. _"Gou"_ will do just fine.


----------



## RCastillo (May 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> 
> *
> 
> I'm pretty down to earth though so you don't have to call me "Lord" at all. "Gou" will do just fine. *




Leaders of their "own" clan do not operate on a first name basis! Lest death is calling you.:samurai:


----------

