# Bruises, Indexes, and Halting Grapplers



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Alright. This one's hard for me to write from an ego standpoint, but like a guy who lost a bet and now has to pay the piper, I gotta post my experience with this. It was significant enough, that props need to go where props need to go. 

I was one of the first guys from kenpo to train with the Gracies; I remember when most of the brothers were still in Torrance; when Rickson left; etc.

I quite happily took challenge matches to people who "gotta big mouth", but who were only willing to take pot-shots at BJJ in the pages of MA mags, and the like. I had some awesome matches in places ranging from my studio, to "their" studios, to parking lots at clubs and gyms; choked the absolute snot outta guys as an outnumbered bouncer; basically, had some real all-around phenomenal experiences as a grappler. Granted, I wrecked my back in the process more than had I not mosied down that road, but all in all, some great experiences.

Well before the UFC happened, and before you could find BJJ all over the place (literally, there were maybe 3-5 schools in the US, including Gracie Brothers, Machado's, & some other cousins), one of my favorite things was to take up challenges from karate guys with the "woulda-coulda-shoulda" garbage. By this, I mean...pretty much any stand-up fighter with more than a year under their belt was sure they could stop a grappler with what we -- as grapplers -- refferred to as "the magic bullet". 

"...when the guy rushes you, all you have to do is..."

So I would oblige, and rush them... pull them to the ground, and either arm-bar them or choke 'em till they turned pretty colors. My end observation from all this? If a trained "wrassler" wants to get you to the floor, then to the floor you're going. Or, more specifically, if *I* want to get you to the floor, then to the floor you're going.

Well, I stopped in at Doc's late Sat. afternoon, and the guy & his motley crew of kenpo super-geeks (and I say that affectionately as I envy their knowledge base) are working on the Index Set. Basically, footwork similar to SF1, but with the stance changes accompanied by braced indexes, transitional indexes, etc. Aka, "how to keep your hands up and out in front of your body, so that if a train hits you, you dent the train".

"We can even use these tools against grapplers shooting to the lower part of the body", says he.

"Malarky", says I (in my head...I'm not THAT stoopihd).

"Reposition the lead hand while maintainnig alignment, and the guy shooting on you will feel like he's got a ton of bricks on his back, and hit the floor short of his mark", he says.

"Heard it before, and didn't believe it then, either", I says (in my head, mostly). But I'm a little stupid. In previous visits, I've pretty blatantly told Doc, "That's a neat trick and all, but I'm still pretty sure I can shoot those legs and pick one or both of those ankles". Says he, "I know you think that".

So. To my chagrin, I drop to shoot on a guy I've got at least 40 pounds on, and a lot more years of doing this stuff. He repositions, drops the elbow, maintains the integrity of the index, and I stop. Then, under what feels like embarassingly crusching weight, I go down. I would *like* to continue to pursue...I can usually persist in a scrambling forward momentum to catch the guy if he's successfully sprawled me, and still pull him to the floor (ain't gravity great?), but not this time. I'm pressing forward, he's barely leaning down, and I'm going nowhere.

Stopped.

Still not sure I believe it happened, so I pair up with one of my old BJJ buddies (purple belt), and exchange notes with him. This guy is also an old kenpo BB, and we started BJJ at about the same times. We used to do "good guy/bad guy" drills together, where we would pad up, then go solid after each other, with one lpaying the role of "karate guy holding off the grappler", and the other one being the grappler. We worked up the faith that the magic bullet did not exist, because we tried them on each other; the challenge "drop me if you can" -- riskig knockout or serious injury -- always ended up with the stand-up uke on the floor. With our past, I feel OK going harder with him than with someone with no wraslin' experience (seen people do simple things like land wrong, and blow a wrist).

End result? I stop him with da elbow ting; he stops me with da elbow ting, and I won't rest until I have accomplished 2 things:
1. Gotten really good at the elbow thing (I have some bad habits...I compromise my upright stances in favor of the old habit of broadening my base by srawling the legs...good practice in grappling, bad practice in kenpo);
2. Figger'd how to slip that friggin' index. Me no likey bags-o-bricks on by back.

Very cool stuff, Mr. Chapel. I'm looking forward to the next installation, though my ego's starting to feel about as bruised as my chest (still don't think I needed that silly vest, but I'm glad I had it).

Regards,

Dr. Dave


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## Shortay

When I met Dr Chapel he showed me the power of a simple index. (coupled with proper body alignment)

My nickname isn't particularly ironic, I am about 5'1'' and don't weigh an awful lot (about 126 pounds). Doc got one of our BKKU instructors to run full tilt at me. I was absolutely petrified as this gentleman outweighed me by, well, enough!!! It was a total no contest.

But I followed Doc's instructions to the letter and at the point of impact - I didn't budge. In fact it was the guy charging me who bumped right backwards and from his reaction had actually felt the full force of the impact rather than me!

Looking forward to seeing Doc in May and learning even more!


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## kevin kilroe

This sounds very important. Can you explain it step by step?


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

Props to you Dr. Dave.  No system is invincible, every attack can be countered.  It takes actual experience and practice against other systems and attacks to learn how to defend them.  You took the time and made the effort to show where Kenpo worked and where it didn't, to make Kenpoists respect grapplers, and to make you Kenpo better against grapplers.   :asian:


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## relytjj

I'm a bit skeptical. It sounds like this technique is a high percentage one. If it is a high percentage technique then why haven't I heard or seen anything like it in MMA competition? 

 Can you describe this technique in more detail?


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## relytjj

Shortay said:
			
		

> When I met Dr Chapel he showed me the power of a simple index. (coupled with proper body alignment)
> 
> My nickname isn't particularly ironic, I am about 5'1'' and don't weigh an awful lot (about 126 pounds). Doc got one of our BKKU instructors to run full tilt at me. I was absolutely petrified as this gentleman outweighed me by, well, enough!!! It was a total no contest.
> 
> But I followed Doc's instructions to the letter and at the point of impact - I didn't budge. In fact it was the guy charging me who bumped right backwards and from his reaction had actually felt the full force of the impact rather than me!
> 
> Looking forward to seeing Doc in May and learning even more!


 This doesn't make any sense. There is no way this is true unless your leaving out some details. You say they you didn't budge and the larger man bounced backwards. There has to be a considerable force applied by you to him to achieve that effect. How did you redirect his momentum? Maybe I would understand if someone described this technique in more detail.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Shortay said:
			
		

> When I met Dr Chapel he showed me the power of a simple index. (coupled with proper body alignment)
> 
> My nickname isn't particularly ironic, I am about 5'1'' and don't weigh an awful lot (about 126 pounds). Doc got one of our BKKU instructors to run full tilt at me. I was absolutely petrified as this gentleman outweighed me by, well, enough!!! It was a total no contest.
> 
> But I followed Doc's instructions to the letter and at the point of impact - I didn't budge. In fact it was the guy charging me who bumped right backwards and from his reaction had actually felt the full force of the impact rather than me!
> 
> Looking forward to seeing Doc in May and learning even more!


When Doc is out there, keep him busy. He has some night-owl habits: If you get the chance, see if you can keep him up and get him to "data-dump" for you. Bring a pad of paper, because you'll wish you had if you don't.

Describing this is a bit tough. Just the braced index position alone, with the alignment mechanisms in place to support it, would take about 5 pages typed, with pics, and you probably still wouldn't get it until you had someone there to put you through the paces with it, make sure the details were in place, and provide you the chance to test it by challenging the various components. 

"Everything matters". Even the act of lowering your chin in concentration -- natural in boxing, grappling, or just balancing your checkbook -- has a net effect of screwing up the stability of your foundation, and robbing strength from pretty much all the limbs of your body. Showing you in person, however, would take about 5-20 minutes.

As for many of the MMA fighters, I don't have a lot of respect for many of their skill levels (note: "many", not "all").  Most get to about what used to be  "seasoned white belt" level in BJJ or some similar system, add kickboxing, then rely on athleticism, strength and steroids for their competitive edge. I've done the grappling with some of the best there are to do the grappling with; I've done the kickboxing with some of the best there are to kickbox with; and I've done the athleticism on 'roids thing for a spell as well. The guys who have my respect as MMA'ers are the technicians who operate at a different level of understanding than the mook-sized white belt roid-ragers. I've rolled with Rickson, Royce, etc., so buffed out guys with attitude problems do not represent to me the top of the "possibility" heap.

I had (have?) the ego to consider myself within about a 1-3 month reach of brushing off rust and regaining my wind to be able to catch most of those guys (providing I could live the gym-rat lifestyle for that time period, and get back on the juice to be able to match their chemical intensity.).  Even cold, old, and outta shape I still occasionally leave some of the new kids sleeping it off on the mat, or walkig away frustrated about not being able to catch the old fat balding guy. So, why have you not seen it in the MMA circles? Alternate question: Why, 16 years ago, did you not see BJJ or MMA gyms on every street corner, videos in every mag, and MMA matches on the telly? Because it was new. Hadn't spread yet. The UFC was either Vale Tudo in Brazil, or the Gracie Challenge in Torrance, CA.

Kenpo folk run a lot on ego. I consider myself one of the lesser offenders, and it's still hard for me to put my ego aside and explore the idea that Doc might have something to offer that I haven't seen before, and know nothing about. Harder still to think my best tricks in my bag of tricks wouldn't help against skinny little kenpo guys, even if I did buff back out and start rolling again.

The old "to feel is to believe" is frequently used as a cop-out. But there are also some very real components to it.  When I put my ego aside, I get kinda bummed. This stuff is out there, and I don't own it. And now I'm too old and busy to go after it with the gusto I would have 20 years ago.

Regards,

Dave


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

relytjj said:
			
		

> This doesn't make any sense. There is *no way* this is true unless your leaving out some details. You say they you didn't budge and the larger man bounced backwards. There has to be a considerable force applied by you to him to achieve that effect. How did you redirect his momentum? Maybe I would understand if someone described this technique in more detail.


Way.


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## Michael Billings

Dave,

 I am not sure if this was your intent, but all you are doing here is irritating people, by saying "Doc has the real deal" you need to feel to believe.  I am not doubting you, just that you put it in a way that potentially will stir up lots of speculation, scepticism, and controversy.   

 Give the guy a break and try to describe it.  Not the technical terms necessarily, as I never expect anyone to learn any kinesthetic art via monitor.  How about the base that you would be explaining to a college class if doing a demo in their gym ... not martial arts students trying to soak it up via the internet and test on the same.

 Thanks,
 -Michael


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## relytjj

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka,

 I can respect your opinion on MMA fighters. However, mine differs. They are professional atheletes who strive to be the best fighters under a given ruleset. I just find it highly suspect that 'Doc has the real deal' and no one in the MMA world knows about it. If this move is as high percentage as you imply it is then no doubt it would change the fight scene just like BJJ did when the Gracie's starting destroying everybody (not on the same scale obviously). This move sounds like a strikers dream.

 Given, it may be extremely new but what are the chances that 'Doc' has come up with an extremely effective technique for preventing takedowns when others have been studying preventing takedowns for quite a while now. I am not calling you a liar, but it is just too much to swallow with a general knowledge of how the technique works.

 -Tyler


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Still at work on a PC that's in and out, but I'll try.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

PC keeps crapping out, and losing the reply. I'll get it up tonight when I get home.


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## relytjj

relytjj said:
			
		

> ...but it is just too much to swallow with a general knowledge of how the technique works.


 Sorry, I meant with out a general knowledge not with.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

OK. I'm really not being a "Doc is right; everyone else is wrong" weenie. I'm just having problems getting my posts to post. I'm going to save to to a document this time, and use a buddies PC to post them.  Anything longer than a sentence or two here gets an error message.

D.


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## Andrew Green

relytjj said:
			
		

> Given, it may be extremely new but what are the chances that 'Doc' has come up with an extremely effective technique for preventing takedowns when others have been studying preventing takedowns for quite a while now. I am not calling you a liar, but it is just too much to swallow with a general knowledge of how the technique works.


 yes, the sceptic meter is likely going off for a lot of people.  Wrestling has been an international sport for a long time, if a takedown defence that is this effective is possible, then why haven't they come up with it yet?

 Not calling anyone a liar, just an observation.

 Why guess would be that it does work, but it leaves something else open.  In other words, yes it will counter that sort of shoot, but at the expense of something else.

 Perhaps someone with a digital camcorder can provide a little clarification for the rest of us?


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## Soulman

Hi Shortay!
Great to see you on the forums - it's James from Cheltenham! Yup I think alot of us witnessed that attempted tackle on you after Dr Chapel showed you the correct stance alignments - its mind-alterating stuff alright.

Seeyou at the seminar in May - can't wait either!!

Soulman


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Michael Billings said:
			
		

> Dave,
> 
> I am not sure if this was your intent, but all you are doing here is irritating people, by saying "Doc has the real deal" you need to feel to believe. I am not doubting you, just that you put it in a way that potentially will stir up lots of speculation, scepticism, and controversy.
> 
> Give the guy a break and try to describe it. Not the technical terms necessarily, as I never expect anyone to learn any kinesthetic art via monitor. How about the base that you would be explaining to a college class if doing a demo in their gym ... not martial arts students trying to soak it up via the internet and test on the same.
> 
> Thanks,
> -Michael


Hokay. There are a couple of concepts that run at the same time, stacked, to make this work. To make it easier to dialogue about them in part or whole, Im going to break them into separate sections. Out of respect for space on the thread, please only copy the part you wish to challenge or discuss when responding.

Mr. Billings:

Thank you for your feedback. I hope this approach is more amenable to public discourse and discussion.

Regards,

Dave


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

*History of these concepts and where Im coming from in posting them:*

It is *not* my intent to do the nyahh, nyahh thing, with praise Doc as the call to arms. The techniques apply some very real concepts in some ways different than what one typically sees in kenpo, yet they are kenpo concepts (One of the most important kenpo concepts is the definition of pure kenpo, in light of which all of the mechanical discussions are exercises in futility). 

Some background, from my perspective (the only one from which I am qualified to speak). Doc teaches a small group of people, because he doesnt teach the general public (accepts few students, and  I suspect  blows more people off than he welcomes); the ideas and applications do not lend themselves well to a large group setting with respect to quality control; and people rarely, if ever, seek him out. Despite his unique take on many items, you rarely hear of him or see him hitting the seminar circuit, camp circuit, etc. Hes a super-nice guy, who is also very firm in his convictions, and this has an effect of people regarding him as unapproachable. The concepts he presents should, in my mind, be present in everyones kenpo. But it doesnt spread through the kenpo community, because nobody comes to learn. And, more influential, folks have a vested ego interest in already having the whole picture. The idea that there might be more to learn, particularly when youve been at it for years, assaults the conceptualizations we use to define our sense of self. So, the soil over pirates treasure goes left unturned.

I cant speak for Docs truth. I CAN attempt to re-tell what hes related to me to the best of my ability. I CAN speak my own truth. My own truth is this: There are some very cool things that Parker did in his kenpo, which he didnt go out of his way to spread. Much of it was still in the experimental phase in his own head, and hadnt even been named yet. I watched closely as a performance modeler and saw that he did stuff that others around him were not doing, but couldnt put my finger on it to isolate and codify it (went by too fast)subtleties in his shorthand that made a big difference on how hard something hit when it landed. Stuff he did to ukes during a technique  bumps and checks  that messed with the other guys balance, proprioception, coordination, etc., all making it easier for him to pull off his executions. They were hinted at, but never codified. In meeting Doc for the first time, he spoke about some of these same things I had noted; spoke of conversations with Parker in which he would do it, have Doc try it, and if Doc asked the ever-prolific Parker what is this called?, the reply would be dont know yet. Just do it. Parker passed too soon. Before he got it codified and interjected into the main body of kenpo knowledge. Not super-secret ninja spy decoder ring stuff, just subtleties that make a difference in HOW a technique  whether basics, or SD techs  are performed, and hence the outcome.

Let me try a piece on perspectiveyou guys out there who are kenpo black belts: do you have a different understanding of, or perspective on, Lone Kimono than you did when you first learned it? Do you move differently while doing it, as a result of that keener grasp of subtleties of motion youve developed over the years? Now, assume youve been doing it for 40 years instead of 10different? Is it unreasonable to assume that the maker of Lone Kimono, after the better part of a lifetime, had developed some deeper understandings of the subtleties of the technique, which in turn affected _how_ he did it? Could these differences in _How_ benefit you as a kenpo practitioner, if you had an awareness of them? As you watch people learn the yellow belt curriculum, do you, as an individual, recognize that there is much more to cleaning up the sequence and bearing down on the execution of it than they, the white belts, are capable of understanding or grasping at this point in their development? If they walk away, and proclaim their understanding of Lone Kimono as THE COMPLETE understanding of Lone Kimono, will you agree, or offer that, Theres more. The moment you do that, they have 2 optionsdisagree with you, and say Not according to how I learned it, or to humble their raging ego and say, There is? What does that look like, and will you show me?.

Docs challenge (and the part of his stubborn streak I do admire) was to stick to a commitment; a decision to codify this stuff, and plug it in to EPAK. I opted to believe him, because the same odd, unnecessary semi-circles I saw Parker doing, Doc was doing. But they were intentional, named, and his small band of kenpo guys were doing it too. _Larger_ circles til they get/got it right, but the same effect. (Stopping for coffee, mentioned later)


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

*Indexing: Anatomical Alignment vs. Neuro-Physiologic Congruence*

Rudimentarily, an index can be thought of as c-o-c-king a blow for a technique (language filters didnt like the C word). More correctly, it consists of moves that prime the muscles and joints of the body to work together as a cohesive unit. Doc favors anatomical alignment as the holy grail of stability & strength (structural integrity). I work with the nervous system all day, seeing effects of treatment modalities aimed at exciting or inhibiting activity levels, so I have a tendency to view the holy grail as neuro-physiologic congruency.

*Anatomic alignment*  Doc can represent this better than I can, since its application to kenpo is really his baby. Roughly, the body has a bunch of bones in it. These bones all articulate to varying degrees at varying angles with their neighboring bones. When the articulations are maximized, the body is in an optimal physical performance state: This state is what we as kenpoists want to accomplish in the midst of blocks, strikes, etc. Its a transitional statestarting from an anatomically aligned position, one might throw a blow that, delivered from alignment, remains strong. In the course of bouncing blows off your opponents body (or navigating the space around them to jockey for position for the next blow), it is possible to become misaligned. So, SD-techs are re-visited with some commas inserted into thempoints wherein the kenpoist re-aligns himself or his weapons through indexing. When all the joints are NOT correctly aligned, the body becomes weaker, and less able to function optimally: This is a state we as kenpoists should strive to keep our opponents in, and we can do so by adjusting the intent of the angle and direction of our landing blows, bumps, butts, maneuvers, distancing mechanisms, and so on. If they (our opponent) are not aligned, their attempts to attack us  seize us, pick us up, throw us, hit us in the head with fists or objects  will not amount to much, especially if we can see the attack coming, and align ourselves. Net effect of a misaligned person bum-rushing an aligned person who does a very slight push-drag forward into the attackers space = bouncing off. (some specific applications include aligning ones self and/or misaligning the attacker prior to escaping from bear-hugs, arm bars, head-locks, chokes or lapel grabs, and so on. Stuff to do in a technique, before you get on with the technique).

*Neuro-Physiologic Congruency*  People walk into my office. I ask them to pick up one knee; they sway and tilt and stumble. We work on them for a bit, I have them pick up their knee; perfect balance & coordination. Whats changed? The traffic on their nervous systems freeway has been cleared, so all the parts of the body can work in congruence towards a single goal. Out of anatomical alignment, the bodies parts cant talk effectively and efficiently with each other, or with the brain (the central processor of the nervous system). When we improve conditions, all the parts can chat freely without distraction or limitation. Brain talking to body; body talking to brain. I liken a state of neuro-physiologic congruence to an orchestra: lotsa different instruments. When they are all in tune, and all playing their part of the same song, you have incredible music. Out of tune & playing different pieces, just noise. So, all parts in communication, working towards a common goal = neuro-physiologic congruency. 

If something like a foot in a stance is going the wrong way in relation to the rest of the body, this state of congruency breaks down, and so does the bodies strength. Since there are good arguments for both, Ive started noting in my training journal AC to refer to the state of either being in *A*lignment/*C*ongruence, or knocking a guy out of his AC.

Problem with the written word in communicating this type of thing? I could have told you and shown you in a minute, with only a couple sentences. So bear with me.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

*The Braced Index.*

Indexes, as mentioned before, are a sub-movement that sets up AC. On the way to work, stop by Starbucks to pick up some coffee. On the way to the inward block, stop by a couple of reference points with your body. The stopping by will recruit some extra energy and stability to the system of moving parts, and make it stronger for the detour.

But they also refer to some positions that aid you in maintaining AC. In respect to Mr. Billings point that I need to say things in terms that people can get and experiment with, Im going to try to put things simply. Out of respect for the amount of time, thought and hard work Doc Chapel has put into developing these things, please be aware that there is more to it than this alone. But I will try; its worth promoting conversation and, hopefully, experimentation. Keep in mind, though: Im painfully new at these applications, so I may be missing significant pieces.

The braced index position can be thought of, for general purposes, as the SL4 fighting stance. The feet are in a neutral bow, and the hands are in contact with each other. The lead hand is in what looks to be a rising upward block that stopped at about the level of the collarbone. The rear hand is in a palm-heel thrust-like position, with the heel of the palm nestled in the web of the lead hands fist. These hands are pressing into each other. Thats just what the stance looks like. Some other stuff going on

The human body goes in and out of AC during various phases of movement. Some things naturally signal the body to attenuate to this state. One of them is the heel striking the ground in gait. During the toe off and swing phase of walking (picking your rear foot off the ground and swinging it out to the front of you), the body is misaligned and comparatively weak: You could not perform a lifting, pushing or pulling strength feat out of AC, because the bones and muscles of the legs, pelvis and spine are not arranged in proper relationship with each other to support such an effort. The moment your heel strikes the ground (called, heel strike), a neurological signal pings through every joint in your body to stabilize the pelvis, spine and hipsto support the activity of having both feet planted squarely on the groundsometimes referred to as platform stabilization. We are aligned/strong for but a moment, before we transfer weight to the leg we just put down, and start all over again. The act of walking is an amazing balance and gymnastic feat that consists largely of almost falling flat on our face, then pulling off a save at the last second. Over, and over, and over.

Each time we step forward or backwards, and move a leg in relation to the pelvis, we de-tone the platforms stability, and become misaligned. The really neat trick for re-alignment? Stomp firmly on the floor with the heel of the foot that DID NOT move. Example: Step back into a right neutral bow; after the left/rear foot has settled, stamp the lead/right heel. Challenge it. Get together with a training partner. Step to a right neutral bow, and have them press on you, trying to push you over backwards. Then do it again; this time, add the stamp. It will be decidedly harder for you to be pushed out of your stance the 2nd time. Since you cant fire a cannon out of a canoe, which one do you want to do before throwing a follow-up punch? The stamping version, or the non-stamping version? More stable stance = more solid punch. Unstable, non-AC stance = weaker punch.

Stepping into a braced index position has about a half-dozen of these things going on to get the body aligned and strong in this position. With respect to the hands, there is a neuro component that needs to be mentioned. Involves another Doc example, and a test. Standing in your right neutral bow, throw an upward thrusting elbow with the lead hand, ending with the fist somewhere next to the skull, around the ear-ish. Have your training partner pull down on your elbow. It will cave with little encouragement (note: this is the vector of resistance against the line of drive of the strike, usually provided by their chin). Do it again, but this time, grab the back of your head at the top of the strike. Have your partner pull down on it. It will be harder, because now youve added the support of your spine and back muscles to it: They have to pull your whole body forward. And if you did the corrective stamp when you stepped, that will be even harder still. Now for the kewl part. Do it again. But this time, just reach out and touch the side of your head with one finger. Have your friend test it. Even though your hand is not wrapped around your skull, he will have as-hard a time moving it. Why? Because the body is electric, and being so, is empowered by closing or chaining circuits. A hand floating in the air isnt electrically AS connected to the body as one that has some closure, created by simply touching yourself. By merely closing the circuit, you add about another 25-75% of strength/stability to the limb in that position.

So, the way the hands are placed in front of the body lends strength to the position by completing the loop of the circuit. There are more parts to stepping into and solidifying a braced index position, but space is limited. Again, I could show you in about five minutes, giving you the personal experience of each of the tests, or challenges, done to make sure the integrity and alignment are in place. Printed media and pictures dont really support the experience gained through the activity, but this will hopefully give you an idea. All approx ½ dozen pieces added together, the stance becomes pretty solid. So much so, that a bull-rush at it can be bounced back with little effort; a slight punching of body-weight in the general direction of the guy rushing you will kick him back. Why? Because you are in AC, and he, via the act of compromising his alignment to rush you, is not. Like knocking over a one-legged table with a car. Thats an important piece to remember, because it will play a role in stopping a grappler shooting on you, and leaving a hefty bruise in the process. But note: Stability alone does not address a grappler intent on seizing you or your legs, and pulling them out from under you. Well get to that.


Also, due to the body electric effect of this position of the hands, you can whip off some wicked-quick and hard lead-hand strikes (backnuckle, outward handsword, etc.) with a great point of origin/point of contact impulse that splits heads instead of hits heads. Remember the commas in the sentence I mentioned earlier? Youll see momentary recoveries to this position (and ones like it) in the SL4 versions of techs like 5-swords and Thundering Hammers to help re-AC the body, and prep the extremities for strikes that land like real hammers. There are some great wrecking balls you can drop on someone from some of these primed positions; substantially more solid than those thrown from the usual suspects.


Another important point. The alignment between the elbow and shoulder of the lead arm is key to stopping someone in their tracks. Why do I mention this? Because just looking at the stance in passivity from the perspective of either a kenpoka or grappler, you spot what appear to be some significant liabilities immediately. First off, with the lead arm frozen half-way through an upward rising block, forearm and upper arm parallel to the floor, the ribs are wide open to slide in a kick, or peel the elbow out of the way (or even just check it) to drop in a punch to the side or kidneys. As a grappler, it looks like an open invitation to slip that lead hand at the elbow, and shoot to the waist, knees or feet for a take-down. My instinct in reaction to these perceived strategic weaknesses is to drop the elbow to cover my ribs, and get my lead arm in a vertical plane position in front of my body. When the arm is up (in the braced index position), a force coming straight in will bump into compressing the humerus straight back into the shoulder girdle. With the elbow down (bones in vertical plane), that same compressing force now only has to compress the hinge joint of the elbow, and over come the triceps alone, instead of the muscles of the back and shoulders, and the non-compressable bone shaft, lengthwise. So my instinct actually causes a weakening of the structure built around this ring of shoulders, arms and hands.


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

*Stopping a Grappler.*

Now, the exercise that started all this. One guy goes into the braced index, doing all the fly-swatting and hoof stomping that goes into solidifying it. The udder-guy bum rushes him, straight on. Index-boy just sort of settles forward into the charging dude. Bounce.

Next piece: Bum-rushing guy tries to latch on to index-guy; index guy settles forward-ish with some authority, and bounces the bum rusher backwards off of him.

Next piece: Bum rusher entangles with the index-guy in a clinch, and tries to peel the hands apart. Well, based on how he has to reach and misalign himself to do it, and considering hes an uncompleted circuit pulling and tugging on a completed circuit, not a whole lot of success there either.

Next Piece: If I cant go through, Ill go around. Index-guy makes small shifts in position to keep the guy in front of him (relationally), stamping that foot each shift to re-establish that AC state.

Next Piece: If I cant get around, Ill go under. This is the fun one for me, particularly because of my take on shoots and drops as a grappler. Point-karate has opened up the door for training some really quick, deceptive attack combinations. Kinda the sparring version of look at the plane. Oops, you werent watching the sub-marine. Among my favorites for using in challenge matches to get in on karate guys as a grappler were:


Lead-leg Pull-drag Low-High Double Roundhouse kick, landing forward with all the momentum and body telegraphs predicting an incoming rear-hand/over-hand haymaker right. At the last second, while weight of heavy right is coming down towards their upraising guard, snap at the waist to drop very fast onto their lead leg, ear to the rear of their lead hip (outside line). Ensnare with clinch handwork, tangle up my legs, ankles and feet with theirs, and fold them backwards onto the ground.

Flying lead hand backfist high into their face, followed by a drop & shoot to a double leg, single leg, or ankle pick. Selling the backfist would get their hands up nicely, and open the lower part of the body to the shoot.
A shoot is, by its very nature, a kamikaze attack. It is also, by its very nature, a state of forward-flying misalignment; say your hail-Marys, and go. Throw the sack of cement at their waist or legs, and keep your chin in. So back to the drill

Guy rushes you to clinch; index-guy bumps him back. He recovers a bit, and shoots to the lower extremities or waist. Index guy maintains the relationship between the elbow and shoulder, so the humerus is still a lengthwise shaft that wont compress without a telescope fracture, but rotates the forearm to a more vertical orientation, and wedges it into the oncoming crotch of the neck & shoulder of the shooter. Re-settle & index AC. Then, lean onto the now-stopped grappler with a slight forward shift, but maintain the integrity of the index; settle again. If you sense him regaining his poise for another forward attempt, settle again. There are some easy foot maneuver pieces, too, that let you keep your ankles out of reach while this is going on. An aligned guy with his elbow in the nook and forearm across the top of your back feels pretty dang heavy.

As the wrassler, when you shoot to the waist or legs, and hit that braced elbow with your cervico-thoracic junction (where your neck connects to your shoulders), it hurts. Stops you, jangles your bones and nerves. Bruises the heck outta you, too. Basic wrestling shoot, foiled.


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

*To be fair:*

_On the other hand_Does this mean all grapplers are destined to fail in their attacks on SL4 guys? Nah. I dont believe in absolutes. The answer to all such questions: It depends. As an eclectic-arts-based grappler, I didnt lay into the guys with some heavy stand-up ordnance first to mess with their heads and their guards, and I didnt blend the shoot with strategic entry subterfuge. Im sure that, given the opportunity to lay into some guys new to this, I could shake them loose (at least in their minds), and complete the take-down. I think it would not be hard to bait non-seasoned combatants into a trade of blows, and in doing so, get them to break their grip on the positional strengths of the braced index (i.e., un-touch their hands to respond to barrage).

_On the other hand_But that isnt a test of the technique or its concurrently running software applications; thats a test of the personal combat experience of the individuals. And most of us saw this application of the braced index for the first time in this training session. I dont honestly know what the outcome would be if these guys spent as much time on their AGMs (anti-grapple mechanisms) as most grapplers spent on the mat. I know that Ive spent a lot of time working on shoots and take-downs, and I firmly believe that shooting on Chapel with ill intent in my heart would get me really hurt.

Looking forward to the chat,

D.


----------



## Michael Billings

I gotta say, more than I can absorb at one sitting.  But I fully intend to look at it as best I can, without having de Man to show me.  I will be back on line in the morning ... after I read through this a couple of times.

 Left over Right,
 Thanks Dave


----------



## Simon Curran

Sounds like a lot of fun Dr Dave...


----------



## kenposikh

relytjj said:
			
		

> This doesn't make any sense. There is no way this is true unless your leaving out some details. You say they you didn't budge and the larger man bounced backwards. There has to be a considerable force applied by you to him to achieve that effect. How did you redirect his momentum? Maybe I would understand if someone described this technique in more detail.




Dear Sir,

Let me empahtically state that this is totally true my name is Amrik Singh I am an instructor with the British Kenpo Karate Union (BKKU) and I was the unfortunate person who charged Shortay, anyone who knows me also knows that I don't hold back, in this case it was a seriously bad move as with the charge and attempted grapple I shot back in pain. nay serious pain


----------



## kenposikh

Soulman said:
			
		

> Hi Shortay!
> Great to see you on the forums - it's James from Cheltenham! Yup I think alot of us witnessed that attempted tackle on you after Dr Chapel showed you the correct stance alignments - its mind-alterating stuff alright.
> 
> Seeyou at the seminar in May - can't wait either!!
> 
> Soulman




and didn't you all laugh at a 16 stone hulk hitting a 7 stone woman and losing.


----------



## bdparsons

Interesting reading Dave, sounds a good deal (but not exactly) like certain  tackle counters picked up through Hapkido over the years. Sometimes baffled me due to the contradiction of Hapkido's principle of non-resistance, but who was I to argue. Thanks for sharing, I know it took a while to put thoughts to screen, it's appreciated.

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute


----------



## howardr

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> yes, the sceptic meter is likely going off for a lot of people.  Wrestling has been an international sport for a long time, if a takedown defence that is this effective is possible, then why haven't they come up with it yet?
> 
> Not calling anyone a liar, just an observation.
> 
> Why guess would be that it does work, but it leaves something else open.  In other words, yes it will counter that sort of shoot, but at the expense of something else.
> 
> Perhaps someone with a digital camcorder can provide a little clarification for the rest of us?


This is also in reply to the other skeptical fellow.

That you're skeptical of such claims sight unseen is understandable. I don't believe anyone is asking you to take it on faith. What I thought that Dr. Crouch was doing was simply testifying to the efficacy of certain SL4 mechanisms and their application against various grappling attacks. Dr. Crouch isn't simply any old "striking guy." He described his background so that the reader could see that he is making a judgment based on knowledge and experience and not conjecture. For what he was trying to accomplish, I think he was pretty effective and convincing at conveying his discoveries. Remember, Dr. Crouch sounds like a pretty ardent skeptic about such matters himself. He didn't take it on faith but had his BJJ friend, who isn't a student of Dr. Chapel, attack him to see if the mechanisms would function against a non-initiated, uncooperative aggressor (incidentally the sort of thing you don't see being done with no-touch knockout types and their ilk).

Now, in regard to the SL4 mechanisms themselves and their ability to do what Dr. Crouch says they do - well, they do. Here's one more voice to vouch for their validity. I've tried grappling (upper and lower) onto students who I outweighed by 30-40 pounds, who were using these mechanisms. I tried with a decent level of ferocity in a manner that I thought is at least realistic for the sort of attack an untrained or semi-trained person would employ and the anti-grappling mechanisms worked. I don't say _trained_ because I haven't been recently involved in a grappling specific training of the sort that people here associate with the word, e.g., BJJ, MMA, Judo, etc. But, I have studied some of these sort of arts in the past, and so I have some appreciation of what and how they try to accomplish their goals. And I've also had significantly larger and heavier (and more skilled) individuals charge, attempt grappling (upper and lower) attacks and I've been very successful with employing the SL4 mechanisms to neutralize and control the onslaught. In fact, I significantly reduce the amount of force I apply to probably about 25% so as to not injure my attacker, and it was still fully effective. This stuff works.

Further, my wife has successfully been able to use these mechanisms against male attackers who significantly outweigh her. I think for women these SL4 tools are especially important, since grappling type attacks are especially prevalent in assaults upon them.

Now, I think one has to be realistic about what is being talked about here. No one is saying that these mechanisms are automatically infallible. That would be silly. Obviously, they can only work IF you can enact them before being grappled, locked, pinned, and so on. But such a "restriction," is true for anything in the martial arts. You might have the strongest block in the world but if the guy punches you before you pull it off, well I guess it's formidable strength was academic. So, like anything you have to practice it. The more you practice it the better you'll get. Does that mean even if you've practiced it extensively that you'll never be grappled and taken down. Who can make such a claim? It simply increases your odds significantly. Even something practiced still has to be engaged and if the other guy is sneakier and faster than you, he may very well successfully get you before you can counter-act his attack. (Dr. Chapel has also shown us at times counter-mechanisms to some of the counter-mechanisms, so apparently almost anything can be defeated if you have the knowledge.)

I feel like the above should be taken for granted. Unfortunately, I detected a need to address this from the tone of some of the posters. _Anti-grappling mechanisms exist, but that doesn't equate to secret knowledge once learned making you immune to any and all grappling attacks under all circumstances._ That's a pretty important difference. Don't set up a strawman.

Finally, does this mean that a non-professional student learning these mechanisms can defeat some gargantuan professional cage fighter who trains eight hours a day, six days a week? Well, just ask yourself if that's really necessary. I don't think it is. The fact is it CAN certainly help the normal person in the sort of situations and against the sort of people that he or she is likely to encounter. And, that's what really counts.


----------



## Michael Billings

> But this time, just reach out and touch the side of your head with one finger. Have your friend test it. Even though your hand is not wrapped around your skull, he will have as-hard a time moving it.


 OK this one I tried and it worked.  I applied it to a Circling Wing application also and it was structurally superior to what I had been doing before.

 -Michael


----------



## Michael Billings

> My instinct in reaction to these perceived strategic weaknesses is to drop the elbow to cover my ribs, and get my lead arm in a vertical plane position in front of my body. When the arm is up (in the braced index position), a force coming straight in will bump into compressing the humerus straight back into the shoulder girdle. With the elbow down (bones in vertical plane), that same compressing force now only has to compress the hinge joint of the elbow, and over come the triceps alone, instead of the muscles of the back and shoulders, and the non-compressable bone shaft, lengthwise. So my instinct actually causes a weakening of the structure built around this ring of shoulders, arms and hands.


 This is structurally sounder in the depth dimension due to the bracing angle afforded with the lead arm, and support from the back arm.  The rotation of the arm also increases muscular tension, or actually just takes the slack out as I can remain relaxed, as well as bracing the radius and ulna.  I also strike or brace at the attachment point of the sternoclido mastoid inside the clavical, remembering the interior pressure points inside the neck and the dirction they need to be struck to activate them.  It is the distance the arms need to travel, and how fast I can get them there to offset the shooters attempted leg hook that worries me.

 I am outta here for Easter, but will play with this in class next week and get back with you on how it works for me.  Interesting demo, even if I cannot make it work in a live fight.  Obviously y'all can, we will see how I do.

 Thanks,
 -Michael


----------



## howardr

Michael Billings said:
			
		

> I am outta here for Easter, but will play with this in class next week and get back with you on how it works for me.  Interesting demo, even if I cannot make it work in a live fight.  Obviously y'all can, we will see how I do.
> 
> Thanks,
> -Michael


Mr. Billings, I've taken a camp seminar or two from you years ago (in an assocation that I don't believe you are a member of any longer) and was quite impressed with your movement (speed, power and crispness) and oral articulation of the art. You strike me, from what I observed and from your posts here, as an honest active minded individual who doesn't have a vested interest. If you find something that works better, you'll adopt it. If it doesn't, you'll at least give it a fair shake. I just have sneaking suspicion that if you spent some time with Dr. Chapel, it might reorient and change your entire approach to Kenpo. In other words, I think you'd really dig it!


----------



## howardr

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> End result? I stop him with da elbow ting; he stops me with da elbow ting, and I won't rest until I have accomplished 2 things:
> 1. Gotten really good at the elbow thing (I have some bad habits...I compromise my upright stances in favor of the old habit of broadening my base by srawling the legs...good practice in grappling, bad practice in kenpo);
> 2. Figger'd how to slip that friggin' index. Me no likey bags-o-bricks on by back.


Regarding #2: that's what worries me! The cat'll be outta the bag and you wrestlers and grapplers will spread counters to these counters! Well, hopefully it will at least still work against the untrained and semi-trained.

Maybe some of this stuff should be kept on the low-down...   :wink2:


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

howardr said:
			
		

> Regarding #2: that's what worries me! The cat'll be outta the bag and you wrestlers and grapplers will spread counters to these counters! Well, hopefully it will at least still work against the untrained and semi-trained.
> 
> Maybe some of this stuff should be kept on the low-down... :wink2:


I'm only coming at it with half the picture. Besides, you think Doc ain't got more tricks up his sneaky little sleeves? (Yes, Doc, sneaky.)

Regards,

Dave


----------



## relytjj

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka,

 Thanks for taking your time explaining the technique and the concepts behind it in some detail. While I obviously don't understand it just by reading your posts over the internet I have a much better idea of what your talking about.


----------



## Shortay

"Originally Posted by *relytjj*
_This doesn't make any sense. There is no way this is true unless your leaving out some details. You say they you didn't budge and the larger man bounced backwards. There has to be a considerable force applied by you to him to achieve that effect. How did you redirect his momentum? Maybe I would understand if someone described this technique in more detail._



Dear Sir,

Let me empahtically state that this is totally true my name is Amrik Singh I am an instructor with the British Kenpo Karate Union (BKKU) and I was the unfortunate person who charged Shortay, anyone who knows me also knows that I don't hold back, in this case it was a seriously bad move as with the charge and attempted grapple I shot back in pain. nay serious pain" 

Thank you Amrik, and James, for your posts. I know the whole thing sounds 'unlikely' but as you guys have confirmed, it is possible and did happen. 


"and didn't you all laugh at a 16 stone hulk hitting a 7 stone woman and losing."

7 stone??? i like you SO much. And no I didn't laugh at all - particularly in view of the fact that I have my brown belt grading soon!!!

see you guys soon, thanks again

Shortay x


----------



## Doc

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> I'm only coming at it with half the picture. Besides, you think Doc ain't got more tricks up his sneaky little sleeves? (Yes, Doc, sneaky.)
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Dave


Yeah considering that was just the surface that one day - I might have a thing or two I haven't shown anyone. The reason is a simple one. Foundations must be sound and taught to allow these thngs to work automatically. Parker had a really deep bag of tricks.

As for the question about "why" grapplers don't use these things, always know that sport competition has always been the least sophisticated aspect of the "martial arts." In that venue knowledge is supplanted by youth and athleticism designed to function within set rules and venue limitations.Thus it is a "game." A serious game where injury is definitely possible, but still a game. Taken out of their element where there really are no rules on the  street, "shooting" takes on a different look. Techniques someone would try in the "ring" don't look as promising on the street. Consequences of failure are too great where there is no referee or the option to "tap out" is removed and you could lose more than a match. Do you really think a guy would jump in the air and spin some kind of kick and fall to the ground if he knew that if he missed and didn't incapacitate you, that you might shove your fingers as deep in his eye sockets as you can? 

Interactive bio-mechanical function is such a specialized field of study, few possess real knowledge even in limited professional athletics. I did a session with the UCLA foot ball team and pushed around players twice my size and a third my age. Showed a quarterback how to take the snap and postion himself in his drop where it was impossible to be stripped of the ball. My nephew's strength coach is a world record holder in the bench press. The method he taught my nephew was flawed and I increased his lift by 50 pounds by correcting his mechanics.

An old slight of build Chinese man used to push this big Hawaiian and Samoan around all the time with ease. Both Ed Parker and Tiny Lefiti learned their lessons well - and I am working on it. I often wondered what I might produce if I had a squadron of young men that I could teach eight hours a day, who were dedicated to nothing but the execution of SL-4 material, instead of the doctors, lawyers, cops and everyday people with careers, families, and mortgages. But then that is who modern self defense is supposed to be designed for, not professional athletes in a ring competing within rules against each other. That what I call "martial sport," and that's a long way from a street fight where I grew up.

I know there is a tendancy to think you can learn something by video but you can't learn anything of any depth. It just isn't possible, sorry. However I am considering perhaps a video of a "charge and bounce" so its effects can be seen, but learning it requires a change in "Kenpo philosophy" that most are unwilling to do, and it cannot be learned any other way. No ne wants to re-learn basics.  Of course as long as they are happy with where they are that is not a bad thing, but I do not teach kenpo "piece meal." It doesn't work that way.

I am curious Dr. Dave what you and your friend came up with after what I shared with you in a couple of hours. And I have wanted to get with Mr. Billings for a long time. I know we would have some fun.

And for the person who questions "why" grapplers don't use this method; Don't think for a minute there is this "general knowledge" that all possess on some level. Don't think that for a minute. The question is not why I might know something that some others don't, but why they don't know something that I do.  Excuse my "sleep deprived ramble."


----------



## Doc

Soulman said:
			
		

> Hi Shortay!
> Great to see you on the forums - it's James from Cheltenham! Yup I think alot of us witnessed that attempted tackle on you after Dr Chapel showed you the correct stance alignments - its mind-alterating stuff alright.
> 
> Seeyou at the seminar in May - can't wait either!!
> 
> Soulman



See you there sir. I'm sure we'll have some more fun with "basics."


----------



## Doc

kenposikh said:
			
		

> Dear Sir,
> 
> Let me empahtically state that this is totally true my name is Amrik Singh I am an instructor with the British Kenpo Karate Union (BKKU) and I was the unfortunate person who charged Shortay, anyone who knows me also knows that I don't hold back, in this case it was a seriously bad move as with the charge and attempted grapple I shot back in pain. nay serious pain


Hey Amrik, I look forward to seeing you in your new uniform.


----------



## Doc

Shortay said:
			
		

> When I met Dr Chapel he showed me the power of a simple index. (coupled with proper body alignment)
> 
> My nickname isn't particularly ironic, I am about 5'1'' and don't weigh an awful lot (about 126 pounds). Doc got one of our BKKU instructors to run full tilt at me. I was absolutely petrified as this gentleman outweighed me by, well, enough!!! It was a total no contest.
> 
> But I followed Doc's instructions to the letter and at the point of impact - I didn't budge. In fact it was the guy charging me who bumped right backwards and from his reaction had actually felt the full force of the impact rather than me!
> 
> Looking forward to seeing Doc in May and learning even more!



And for the record, I am the one that gave her that nickname. She is indeed a "Shortay" but also a "Cutie." 

See you in May "Shortay."


----------



## JenniM

Just another voice to the testiment of SL4, I have been studying as a student of Dr Chapel since 2000, that is also with 25 years of motion Kenpo under my belt and not the air technique type either, having learnt and experienced the mechanisms and principles applied I would encourage anyone with an open mind to to seek out an SL4 instructor, if you take on board what is being given to you and most of the time freely, you will surely make your current level of Kenpo/MA more effective.

That is such a good attempt Dave at putting into words the complexities of such mechanisms.

It is always good to hear other peoples experiences especially when they start as a sceptic, take on board what Dr Chapel is teaching and then recreate it in a sterile environment. There is so much more out there if only we are willing to show some humility and seek it out.

With regard to Shortay,Soulman and Amrik, I am glad that you have learnt from what I first saw and sought out as exceptional Kenpo.

Kevin J Mills


----------



## Doc

JenniM said:
			
		

> Just another voice to the testiment of SL4, I have been studying as a student of Dr Chapel since 2000, that is also with 25 years of motion Kenpo under my belt and not the air technique type either, having learnt and experienced the mechanisms and principles applied I would encourage anyone with an open mind to to seek out an SL4 instructor, if you take on board what is being given to you and most of the time freely, you will surely make your current level of Kenpo/MA more effective.
> 
> That is such a good attempt Dave at putting into words the complexities of such mechanisms.
> 
> It is always good to hear other peoples experiences especially when they start as a sceptic, take on board what Dr Chapel is teaching and then recreate it in a sterile environment. There is so much more out there if only we are willing to show some humility and seek it out.
> 
> With regard to Shortay,Soulman and Amrik, I am glad that you have learnt from what I first saw and sought out as exceptional Kenpo.
> 
> Kevin J Mills



Thank you sir for the kind words. We'll be working on the basic "Index Set" when I see you.


----------



## Doc

howardr said:
			
		

> Regarding #2: that's what worries me! The cat'll be outta the bag and you wrestlers and grapplers will spread counters to these counters! Well, hopefully it will at least still work against the untrained and semi-trained.
> 
> Maybe some of this stuff should be kept on the low-down...   :wink2:



Doesn't matter G., done properly, it is like trying to counter a moveable-immoveable object. 

The bag is really deep.


----------



## howardr

Doc said:
			
		

> However I am considering perhaps a video of a "charge and bounce" so its effects can be seen, but learning it requires a change in "Kenpo philosophy" that most are unwilling to do, and it cannot be learned any other way.


Dr. Chapel, one concern I have with a video (and I know you know this but I'd just like it said for the others): _it only shows the viewer an external perspective_. In other words, the viewer can see the attack, can see the defense and can see the outcome. What the viewer can't get is the internal feeling of what it's like to be aligned and withstand the attack and the internal feeling of what it's like to be the attacker and be misaligned (and, therefore, not really be able to attack further effectively).

Someone can watch and think that if he was the attacker, after being stopped initially ("bumped"), he could just do X, and then if he was was stopped while doing X, he could just do Y. After all, from the external video viewer perspective it doesn't "look" like there's anything to stop these further actions. But, what the viewer doesn't realize is that while the attacker is being stopped at various points he is being misaligned (which for the untrained will not be apparent at all) and controlled (to a decent degree not apparent as well to the untrained), such that those options, which might look from an external perspective as possibilities, are actually reduced or eliminated entirely. Viewers who have not experienced what is happening in the video (which really cannot be mimicked from simply watching, as Dr. Chapel has already mentioned, due to the underlying biomechanics of the movements; this too won't be apparent from watching the video) may think that the defender doesn't look very solid and thus what he is doing couldn't really work, so the attacker must not be _really_  attacking, etc. Of course, the defender is solid, the attacker is misaligned/immobile/controlled, etc.  But, unfortunately, you really can't see any of that on a video.

Dr. Chapel, I'm wondering if the above are the sort of considerations that make you hesistant to put out various video clips on SL4 material?


----------



## Shortay

Another concern with videos and particularly SL-4 on video, would be that videos are best for conveying general principles, and SL-4 is distinctly non-general. Everything is *specific*, down to the most minute detail.

This is true even for the "basics".

The more advanced stuff (I imagine) would be way too risky to put on video form as I know Doc conducts extensive back ground checks before teaching the nerve work, techinques requiring resuscitation etc and one cannot control the audience of a video once it is released.


----------



## Shortay

Doc said:
			
		

> And for the record, I am the one that gave her that nickname. She is indeed a "Shortay" but also a "Cutie."
> 
> See you in May "Shortay."


----------



## Doc

howardr said:
			
		

> Dr. Chapel, one concern I have with a video (and I know you know this but I'd just like it said for the others): _it only shows the viewer an external perspective_. In other words, the viewer can see the attack, can see the defense and can see the outcome. What the viewer can't get is the internal feeling of what it's like to be aligned and withstand the attack and the internal feeling of what it's like to be the attacker and be misaligned (and, therefore, not really be able to attack further effectively).
> 
> Someone can watch and think that if he was the attacker, after being stopped initially ("bumped"), he could just do X, and then if he was was stopped while doing X, he could just do Y. After all, from the external video viewer perspective it doesn't "look" like there's anything to stop these further actions. But, what the viewer doesn't realize is that while the attacker is being stopped at various points he is being misaligned (which for the untrained will not be apparent at all) and controlled (to a decent degree not apparent as well to the untrained), such that those options, which might look from an external perspective as possibilities, are actually reduced or eliminated entirely. Viewers who have not experienced what is happening in the video (which really cannot be mimicked from simply watching, as Dr. Chapel has already mentioned, due to the underlying biomechanics of the movements; this too won't be apparent from watching the video) may think that the defender doesn't look very solid and thus what he is doing couldn't really work, so the attacker must not be _really_  attacking, etc. Of course, the defender is solid, the attacker is misaligned/immobile/controlled, etc.  But, unfortunately, you really can't see any of that on a video.
> 
> Dr. Chapel, I'm wondering if the above are the sort of considerations that make you hesistant to put out various video clips on SL4 material?



Absolutely. Even in class to the casual observer it looks "fake." The question comes up, "why didn't they just do blank?" The answer is obvious to me, - because they can't, but it LOOKS like they should be able to. Even when you demonstrate it on someone for the first time, they always have a puzzled look on their face, and say, "Do it again." as if they don't believe what they just experienced. It's a problem and why our videos stay in- house. Those who seek to discredit can find alot when they don't know what they're looking at. (never end a sentance this way - I know.)


----------



## Doc

Michael Billings said:
			
		

> OK this one I tried and it worked.  I applied it to a Circling Wing application also and it was structurally superior to what I had been doing before.
> 
> -Michael


That is only just the beginning sir.


----------



## Bode

> The question comes up, "why didn't they just do blank?" The answer is obvious to me, - because they can't, but it LOOKS like they should be able to. -- Doc


 This is the exact problem I have with posting a video. There are too many people who believe that simply seeing something enables them to criticize or perform the movements. There will be people who see the video, try it at home, and say it didn't work. The Braced Index involves to many factors to be able to learn from a video. (Even if people are told this, they will still try it).

 However, demonstrations on video that are easily copied and tested at home are definetly of use. The Circling Wing example of touching your own head to increase structural integrity is a perfect example. It can be tested/copied by watching a video. Little instruction is necassary. 
 Doc always say's "Feeling is believing." I have never met anyone, instructor or otherwise, who consistently expects and encourages doubt, skepticism, and "trying it out." If you don't believe him, he say's, "Line up and test it out." Sure enough, he's right. If he finds something wrong he corrects the problem and we move on. 
 Doc has always had an open door policy to other martial artists. Come in, check it out, and maybe even sign a waver to feel some proof. After all, feeling is believing. 
 I have only been a direct student of Doctor Chapel's for about 7 months. When I have discussions with other martial artists and show them some SL4 examples they are consistently saying, "WOW." I have never tried to convert anyone, only to improve their execution of a Krav Maga technique or otherwise. They are always thankful. 

 oh, and...
 I must admit I have an alterior motive. I don't want to be the one "bouncing" off a solid braced index!


----------



## JDenz

interesting


----------



## kenposikh

Doc said:
			
		

> Hey Amrik, I look forward to seeing you in your new uniform.




And what a wonderful uniform it is, I gave Mr Dean his and he said he had never been so excited over a piece of clothing as he was in getting his uniform 

I endeavour to do the uniform Mr Mills and yourself Justice whilst wearing it and when not Work HArd TRain Hard and practice, practices, practice .....

Look forward to seeing you in May


----------



## relytjj

I'd be interesting in seeing a video of this technique in action. 



> Quote:
> The question comes up, "why didn't they just do blank?" The answer is obvious to me, - because they can't, but it LOOKS like they should be able to. -- Doc
> 
> This is the exact problem I have with posting a video. There are too many people who believe that simply seeing something enables them to criticize or perform the movements. There will be people who see the video, try it at home, and say it didn't work. The Braced Index involves to many factors to be able to learn from a video. (Even if people are told this, they will still try it).


 Who cares about these people. Only a fool would try to learn a new technique described as complex from its teachers from a video. You already know they won't pick up on the subleties, which are apparently very important to this technique, so why worry...


----------



## Andrew Green

Doc said:
			
		

> As for the question about "why" grapplers don't use these things, always know that sport competition has always been the least sophisticated aspect of the "martial arts."


 umm... no...  Competition is the most technical...

 Making something work against a uncooperative opponent is always more complicated then making it work against a cooperative one...



> In that venue knowledge is supplanted by youth and athleticism


 Yup, athleticism is importanin anything physical.  Football, dance, manual labour and yes, fighting.



> designed to function within set rules and venue limitations.


 There are always rules, even if they are not written.  Even on the "street".  If you want fewer rules the first UFC's did that, as did a whole bunch of Vale Tudo stuff out of Brazil.



> Thus it is a "game."


 Yup, So is street fighting, just slight variations on a theme.  And games tend to get extremely complicated.  Think of Chess, or Go.  



> A serious game where injury is definitely possible, but still a game. Taken out of their element where there really are no rules on the street,


 Sure there are, they are just different and not always something you volunteer into.



> "shooting" takes on a different look.


 Yes, being taken down on cement or into a wall would hurt a lot more.  As well as skmirring around on your back under a knee mount.



> Techniques someone would try in the "ring" don't look as promising on the street. Consequences of failure are too great where there is no referee or the option to "tap out" is removed and you could lose more than a match.


 Slight variations in rules call for variations in tactics.



> Do you really think a guy would jump in the air and spin some kind of kick and fall to the ground if he knew that if he missed and didn't incapacitate you,


 Can't say I've seen much of that in MMA....



> that you might shove your fingers as deep in his eye sockets as you can?


 Not as easy as it sounds, generally people aren't to cooperative when you try this sort of thing.


----------



## Bode

> umm... no...  Competition is the most technical...
> 
> Making something work against a uncooperative opponent is always more complicated then making it work against a cooperative one...-- Andrew Green


 Competition can hardly be considered more technical in such a all encompassing way. Your example is specific enough to point out the difference between a cooperative person and someone who isn't. Is that a suggestion that only competitors train with uncooperative people? Training (in our school) is not always done with a compliant opponent. In the early stages it must be to promote proper mechanics, but as time progresses the attacks become more aggressive, faster, and overall uncooperative. That's reality. 
 The point is that in a competition, take point fighting for example, you can deliver a blow that makes "trembling shock" and be considered a winner. In the street the point winning blow would have done nothing to end the fight.
 I know a number of great competition fighters who leave competition because they lost to someone who just happened to be a bit faster and younger (Thus the athleticism comment) and give them a love tap that scored a point. They consistently say, "That wasn't a fight. Take it to the street and see what happens." And watching them it's obvious who would win.

    Grappling competitions are much the same. 


> There are always rules, even if they are not written. Even on the "street". If you want fewer rules the first UFC's did that, as did a whole bunch of Vale Tudo stuff out of Brazil. --- Andrew Green


 I don't know what street you are fighting in...
 As far as the UFC and "fewer rules"... that is laughable. The rules of the UFC are geared towards enabling grapplers to win. Don't believe me, here are the list of fouls:






Butting with the head.
Eye gouging of any kind.
Biting.
Hair pulling.
Fish hooking.
Groin attacks of any kind.
Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut                             or laceration on an opponent.
Small joint manipulation.
Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation,                             grabbing the trachea.
Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh.
Grabbing the clavicle.
Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.
Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
Stomping a grounded opponent.
Kicking to the kidney with the heel.
Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or                             neck.
Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area.
Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent.
Spitting at an opponent.
Engaging in an unsportsmanlike conduct that causes                             an injury to an opponent.
Holding the ropes or the fence.
Using abusive language in the ring or fenced area.
Attacking an opponent on or during the break.
Attacking an opponent who is under the care of the                             referee.
Attacking an opponent after the bell has sounded                             the end of the period of unarmed combat.
Flagrantly disregarding the instructions of the                             referee.
Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent, intentionally or consistently dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury.
Interference by the corner.
Throwing in the towel during competition.
Oh, in case you think I am making it up... here you go.
    That is, per your comment, "fewer rules."

    And regarding rules in the street:


> Sure there are, they are just different and not always something you volunteer into. -- Andrew Green


 If you are going to make such a statement then tell us what the rules are because I am certain everyone would like to know. Maybe I've been leaving my house every day not knowing these rules. 
 If you assume that everyone on the street operates under ANY form of rules you are asking for possible death. Yes, a college frat boy might be content with throwing punches or rolling around on the ground in a contest of who has the biggest... However, we cannot count on the opponent being a frat boy. We assume the worst and prepare for it. The reason terrorists destroyed the world trade center had more to do with the American intelligence communities assumptions and "rules" about how terrorists behave/operate than about lack of intelligence data or sharing. They did not obey the "rules" and thus, dealt a terrible blow to America. 
    So go ahead and assume there are rules... you know what they say about assuming. 



> Slight variations in rules call for variations in tactics.


 Vague. What are they?

    Regarding digging your fingers into someones eye sockets:


> Not as easy as it sounds, generally people aren't to cooperative when you try this sort of thing.


 We agree on this, but that wasn't Doc's point. The point, if I may, is the possibility exists for it to happen. THE POSSIBILITY. If you were about to get into a fight and someone said to you, "I've seen this guy fight. He broke this guys arm in three places and blinded him in one eye." I bet you would think twice. Same goes for criminals who are about to rob a house. Tell them, "That guy has a handgun under his mattress while he sleeps. He shot the last guy who tried to rob him." The equation changes with the possibility of death or extreme injury. 
 Training and repetition harden the neural pathways. If you train under a set of rules of course you will find there are rules in the street!


----------



## Andrew Green

Bode said:
			
		

> Is that a suggestion that only competitors train with uncooperative people?


 No, it's saying that once people stop cooperating it becomes competitive.



> Training (in our school) is not always done with a compliant opponent. In the early stages it must be to promote proper mechanics, but as time progresses the attacks become more aggressive, faster, and overall uncooperative.


 ok, so you are progressing into a competitive environment...?



> The point is that in a competition, take point fighting for example, you can deliver a blow that makes "trembling shock" and be considered a winner. In the street the point winning blow would have done nothing to end the fight.


 ok, why does everyone that argues against competition go back to pointfighting?  Yup, it's silly, we all agree.  It's like playing football and "pretending" to tackle each other while the refs decide if the pretended tackle was good or not.



> I know a number of great competition fighters who leave competition because they lost to someone who just happened to be a bit faster and younger (Thus the athleticism comment) and give them a love tap that scored a point. They consistently say, "That wasn't a fight. Take it to the street and see what happens." And watching them it's obvious who would win.


 So go full contact...



> Grappling competitions are much the same.


 No, they are full contact.



> I don't know what street you are fighting in...


 None, fighting in the streets is something I would try to avoid.



> As far as the UFC and "fewer rules"... that is laughable. The rules of the UFC are geared towards enabling grapplers to win. Don't believe me, here are the list of fouls:


 Actually, they are geared towards striking lately.

 Makes sense, the 45 min stalemates on the ground are not good for the ratings.




Butting with the head. 
 Works best on the ground, scorring a standing head butt is a rare thing compared to on the ground.

Eye gouging of any kind. 
 Again, works best on the ground, you need control of someone to hit a target that small.

Biting. 
 Same

Hair pulling. 
 That is grappling...

Fish hooking. 
 Again, grappling.


Groin attacks of any kind. 
 Ok, I'll give you this one, but it's pretty even.  Strikes and grabs work.

Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut                             or laceration on an opponent. 
 Grappling..

Small joint manipulation. 
 Grappling...

Striking to the spine or the back of the head. 
 Well, that is striking, so I'll give it to you.  But I think they would be hard to get at without some control getting you on the guys back...

Striking downward using the point of the elbow. 
 Only applicable on the ground when on top of someone.

Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation,                             grabbing the trachea. 
 Bit of both

Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh. 
 Grappling

Grabbing the clavicle. 
 Grappling

Kicking the head of a grounded opponent. 
 One for striking!

Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent. 
 Grappling, this is done from a control position

Stomping a grounded opponent. 
 Striking

Kicking to the kidney with the heel. 
 Grappling - Done from guard

Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or                             neck. 
 Grappling

Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area. 
 Grappling

Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent. 
 Grappling

Spitting at an opponent. 
 umm... neither...

Engaging in an unsportsmanlike conduct that causes                             an injury to an opponent. 
 neither

Holding the ropes or the fence. 
 not really either

Using abusive language in the ring or fenced area. 
 neither

Attacking an opponent on or during the break. 
 neither

Attacking an opponent who is under the care of the                             referee. 
 neither 
Attacking an opponent after the bell has sounded                             the end of the period of unarmed combat. 
 neither 
Flagrantly disregarding the instructions of the                             referee. 
 neither 
Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent, intentionally or consistently dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury. 
 neither 
Interference by the corner. 
 neither 
Throwing in the towel during competition. 
 neither



> That is, per your comment, "fewer rules."


 Got any that use less?
 The first UFC's did, "No biting" No eye Gauging" and that was it.  Got penalized with a fine afterwards.



> If you are going to make such a statement then tell us what the rules are because I am certain everyone would like to know. Maybe I've been leaving my house every day not knowing these rules.


 Rules change from one situation to another, but there are always rules.




> If you assume that everyone on the street operates under ANY form of rules you are asking for possible death.


 
 Sure, maybe not by choice but they are forced to follow rules.  Environment is one, numbers is another.





> The reason terrorists destroyed the world trade center


 I thought it was American foriegn policy?






> Training and repetition harden the neural pathways. If you train under a set of rules of course you will find there are rules in the street!


 
 So best train under as few as you can and varrying them to build adaptability into your "style" because you never no what "rules" you might get stuck with.  Right, isn't that what I have been saying?


----------



## Bode

> So go full contact...-- Andrew Green


 You can't. No one can. Unless they plan on having one fight a year and risk possible death. You can train with a degree of realism, but never full contact. Simply adding the tap out means you aren't training full contact. Even in "full contact" competitions there are rules that define full contact for that given venue. 
 If you say go full contact, then define it. What are the rules? We could argue semantics all day and become blue in the face. Be specific. (I think my definition of full contact is different than yours).

  Regarding grappling competitioins:


> No, they are full contact.


  See above. 



> Actually, they are geared towards striking lately.
> Makes sense, the 45 min stalemates on the ground are not good for the ratings.
> -- Andrew Green


 After this quote you stepped through all the fouls listed on the UFC website. I'm not sure how you interpreted this, but they are FOULS. Meaning you cannot perform the listed moves. The majority of the fouls favor the fact that a grappler can stay tightly wound around his opponent without fear of small joint manipulation, biting, eye gouging, etc... By not allowing someone to bite you are creating a competition where people are not afraid to roll around on the ground. They wont lose a chunk of muscle. (That's just one example) 



> Got any that use less?
> The first UFC's did, "No biting" No eye Gauging" and that was it. Got penalized with a fine afterwards.


 The street uses less. And no, the first UFC had more rules than that. Too bad I can't find a source to quote, but I doubt you can as well. Those were the general rules they promoted to the mass media, but read the fine print for the fighters contracts. I'm sure the rules are clear.



> Rules change from one situation to another, but there are always rules.


 Again, in your world there is. 




> Sure, maybe not by choice but they are forced to follow rules. Environment is one, numbers is another.


 Ahhhh, I see the problem. Your defintion of rules is vastly different than most. Here is websters definition:
   A usual, customary, or generalized course of action or behavior.

 Environment or numbers (I am assuming you meant number of people) are not, per the common definition of rules, an "action" or "behavior." 
  If you expect to communicate and have a logical discussion we should be clear on the semantics. 



> I thought it was American foriegn policy?


 Now you are just bating me. This isn't a forum for such discussioin. To be technical my comment should have said, " The reason terrorists *were able to* destroyed the world trade center."



> So best train under as few as you can and varrying them to build adaptability into your "style" because you never no what "rules" you might get stuck with


 And how do you train under few rules? Where do you draw the line? The very act of sparring or grappling and having respect for your training partner entails rules. You don't want to hurt them because they wont be able to train. Our classes would last 1 minute if we trained perfectly realistic. An elbow to the head or spine... class over.


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

As "just another jerk on the bus", I would like to pose a question: Is it possible to explore ideas in this media in a way that prompts thinking minds to take an idea to the next level? Case in point: Were I a grappler only, I would be curious if the state of "being in alignment/congruence" could be applied to the floor; if one could "index" while in the mount, and apply it to ground-fighting.

If I were only a stand-up fighter or kenpoist, I might ask, "what is this thing? Can it help my kenpo?" Mr. Conatser speaks in another tread of the importance of basics. Can I apply this to improving mine?

Any of these require humility & curiosity. There are some great "hints" dropped about what's out there, but you rarely see curious minds enquire. Only critical ones. I attempted to post some of the mechanisms and ideas to see if folks would go to the "curious and exploratory", as opposed to the "invested & critical". Hmm.

D.


----------



## Andrew Green

Bode said:
			
		

> After this quote you stepped through all the fouls listed on the UFC website. I'm not sure how you interpreted this, but they are FOULS. Meaning you cannot perform the listed moves. The majority of the fouls favor the fact that a grappler can stay tightly wound around his opponent without fear of small joint manipulation, biting, eye gouging, etc... By not allowing someone to bite you are creating a competition where people are not afraid to roll around on the ground. They wont lose a chunk of muscle. (That's just one example)


 Think about this...

 These fouls are used when "tightly wound around his opponent" as you state.  WHO has the control to put these fouls to the most use at this range?  The person in control, or the person being controlled?


----------



## Doc

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> As "just another jerk on the bus", I would like to pose a question: Is it possible to explore ideas in this media in a way that prompts thinking minds to take an idea to the next level? Case in point: Were I a grappler only, I would be curious if the state of "being in alignment/congruence" could be applied to the floor; if one could "index" while in the mount, and apply it to ground-fighting.
> 
> If I were only a stand-up fighter or kenpoist, I might ask, "what is this thing? Can it help my kenpo?" Mr. Conatser speaks in another tread of the importance of basics. Can I apply this to improving mine?
> 
> Any of these require humility & curiosity. There are some great "hints" dropped about what's out there, but you rarely see curious minds enquire. Only critical ones. I attempted to post some of the mechanisms and ideas to see if folks would go to the "curious and exploratory", as opposed to the "invested & critical". Hmm.
> 
> D.



"WARNING, WARNING, DANGER WILL ROBINSON - TOO MUCH INFORMATION HAS CREATED BRAINLOCK AND DUG IN HEELS."

Seriously Dr. C, this is normal. I have experienced this many times. I have given information that should have produced significant inquiries from anyone who is interested in actually improving their knowledge base. I have also put physical experiments out there so the "curious" could physically test ideas for themselves. To date only Mr. Billings has engaged (on more than one occasion), and commented on his findings publicly.

It is my experience that some posters are not actually interested in what they perceive as "new knowledge/material" only in validation for what they already subscribe to. Then there are some like Mr. Green, who is so locked into his own positions, he eludes common sense to bolster his perspective. Others ask multi-part intricant questions, and then after lengthy detailed answers to their inquiries, you get little to no resposnse. One was even honest enough to say he wanted answers, but just not from me. Then there are those that would rather talk about anything but the art, and cite numerous non martial art books you should go read so you'd "understand" where they are coming from.

I have always promoted the examination and exchange of honest "information" and asked questions to promote thought and an open mind, and avoided "political correctness" which I hate because it stifles the free flow of that information. I have always told it "like it is" and given "credit where credit is due," popular or not. That is what real teachers do. 

Mr. Parker did the same, (although I must admit later in his life his commercial art made him very political in his interactions with many) to promote the free excahnge of ideas. All his life he put it out there and waited to see who "really wanted to know." They "worshipped" and laughed at his jokes, but through the years he found that the majority only wanted to know one thing. - "When is the next rank test?" Once they got enough rank, or thought they learned as much as they needed to know, - they left the fold to set up their own shop with his material. (very little of his personal material)

For me, these forums are fascinating and despite some of the less than open minded, there are truly some very well educated and brilliant people that participate. But I have also found that more people read than participate, so no matter what the exchange is between posters - good or bad, informative or not, a greater service is being done for the readers who have the opportunity to come to MartialTalk to see all sides and make decisions about what is available and credible for themselves. That is why I make my home here on MartialTalk and that is the extent of my own agenda. Recently a few of my newer students have participated and I think the experience has been positive for them. Mostly good posters and exchanges, and I presume, good readers that allows me to keep my promise to my teacher - "Preach the gospel brother." he always said with a smile.   I will. God I miss him.


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

I can only imagine.


----------



## Doc

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> I can only imagine.



You know Sat is your day and you didn't show. You missed some great offensive applications of the Index Set.


----------



## Thesemindz

Ok Doc, I'm one of those guys who reads your posts but rarely comments on them. So here goes. 

     When I first came across your website as a brown belt, I found some of your comments to be challenging to what I understood. Not what I had been taught, but what I understood of what I had been taught. As I've continued to train I've realized that there is a great variance in the quality of instruction that you will recieve from school to school. I have learned that I am at a very good Kenpo school and that we make very good martial artists. I have also realized what you mean by motion kenpo, and I realize that it is what we practice. We do practice ALOT of joint and body manipulation, nerve striking, and body alignment, both offensively and defensively. The key point is that it's still all based on MOTION. It works, and not only in house, we train with grapplers, aikidoists, stick fighters, capoieristas, judoka, kickboxers, and many other martial artists of assorted influence, and our stuff is quality. I have no concerns there. You have opened my eyes to another type of kenpo though. I understand that it isn't neccessarily better or worse than what I'm doing, it's just another type, system, level of training. I've tried several of your tests, and I've ALWAYS found them to be on the level, at least as far as I can tell with my limited understanding, seeing as how my only exposure to you is via the internet. One of my favorite tests involved moving to an outward elbow position by hitting your opposite shoulder with the fist and then executing the elbow, (short description), and it worked. I felt a NOTICABLE difference in structure. Same with several other tests. We have trained in this type of thing before, and I was told that it was taught to our master by Mr. Parker, but I have a feeling that you have a much deeper knowledge, as we were only given a few small examples to play with. I would very much like to meet you some day and learn more about what you do. I have come to see your statements as inviting, not challenging, and I am intrigued by your particular brand of Kenpo. Seems to me, you're on the level.


-Rob


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Doc:

I miss it, too, I'll tell ya. Had a chance to use it the other night; popped back two guys who were busy brawling their way towards our table. Braced index (no PAM...seated). Braced the hands, punched into the oncoming duo, and watched them bounce off to the next table to continue their melee. 

We lost a Doc here at the office, and are short-handed. I'm having to carry the load, work the hours, and get the FNG (replacement) guy hired and trained up. 6:30 AM to about 9:30 PM M-F, and 8:00 to 6:00 Sat. My adrenals are running on ma-huang and caffiene. The crash is gonna hurt.

Hopefully will see you soon enough to catch up.


----------



## Simon Curran

Thesemindz said:
			
		

> I have come to see your statements as inviting, not challenging, and I am intrigued by your particular brand of Kenpo. Seems to me, you're on the level.
> 
> 
> -Rob


Ditto here.


----------



## Doc

If I've helped one person to better themselves and expand on what they do and understand - then I've kept my promise. Thank you gentleman.

PS - For the record, I don't have a brand of Kenpo. I just do what I was taught which is just another flavor in the Ed Parker Cookbook.


----------



## Simon Curran

Thank you, sir, for offering an alternate perspective and standing by it.:asian:


----------



## Doc

SIMONCURRAN said:
			
		

> Thank you, sir, for offering an alternate perspective and standing by it.:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

Doc said:
			
		

> I just do another flavor in the Ed Parker Cookbook.


 Hee hee...... yeah..... but I own all the desert recipes.

   :lol:  :boing2:  :lol:  :boing2:  :lol:  :boing2:  :lol:  :boing2:


----------



## Doc

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> Hee hee...... yeah..... but I own all the desert recipes.
> 
> :lol:  :boing2:  :lol:  :boing2:  :lol:  :boing2:  :lol:  :boing2:


I've known this for quite some time now, but at least you're willing to share.


----------



## Gray Phoenix

Indexing? Stopping a Grappler? Being a student of Jujitsu, I'm always looking to improve my art so this thread was a must read for me. Shooting for the legs would not be my first choice in attacks, but I have seen some very poor BJJ students walk into our class and try it. For those who are unfamiliar with Jujitsu (nonBJJ), we'll go to ground if we have to, but in my school, we would rather have our opponent kiss concrete instead of ourselves. 



So after having read this thread this morning, ironically, it came up this evening in class, so I had to ask my Professor about indexing, how does it work, and most importantly..why? I also mentioned to him that I saw this thread and tried in my newbieesque terms to explain what was being discussed, and by whom. I know of Docs reputation but having somebody bounce off of me, was hard to believe. 

So anyway, the Professor immediately said Doc was right and proceeded to demonstrate. WAY COOL.:ultracool I dont want to sound corny, but I had a light bulb moment. This will be factored into just about everything I can work it into. I have also realized I need to watch my professors footwork much more closely. He's been doing it right in front of me and to me for quite some time and I never put 2 and 2 together. I found this evenings lessons very useful, in that my techniques will improve and my ego was humbled. I have many decades of learning ahead of me.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





So thanks for sparking a question Doc, and Professor Bellman says "Hi".


----------



## Doc

Gray Phoenix said:
			
		

> Indexing? Stopping a Grappler? Being a student of Jujitsu, I'm always looking to improve my art so this thread was a must read for me. Shooting for the legs would not be my first choice in attacks, but I have seen some very poor BJJ students walk into our class and try it. For those who are unfamiliar with Jujitsu (nonBJJ), we'll go to ground if we have to, but in my school, we would rather have our opponent kiss concrete instead of ourselves.


As it should be.



> So after having read this thread this morning, ironically, it came up this evening in class, so I had to ask my Professor about indexing, how does it work, and most importantly..why? I also mentioned to him that I saw this thread and tried in my newbieesque terms to explain what was being discussed, and by whom. I know of Docs reputation but having somebody bounce off of me, was hard to believe.


Yes it is, because so few have an understanding of anatomical structure.


> So anyway, the Professor immediately said Doc was right and proceeded to demonstrate. WAY COOL.:ultracool I dont want to sound corny, but I had a light bulb moment. This will be factored into just about everything I can work it into. I have also realized I need to watch my professors footwork much more closely. He's been doing it right in front of me and to me for quite some time and I never put 2 and 2 together. I found this evenings lessons very useful, in that my techniques will improve and my ego was humbled. I have many decades of learning ahead of me.


Don't we all.


> So thanks for sparking a question Doc, and Professor Bellman says "Hi".



Thank you Mr. Freeman. You study "real" jiu-jitsu, not that other kind. You have to watch Prof. Bellman closely though. He's pretty sneaky.


----------



## Doc

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Doc:
> 
> I miss it, too, I'll tell ya. Had a chance to use it the other night; popped back two guys who were busy brawling their way towards our table. Braced index (no PAM...seated). Braced the hands, punched into the oncoming duo, and watched them bounce off to the next table to continue their melee.
> 
> We lost a Doc here at the office, and are short-handed. I'm having to carry the load, work the hours, and get the FNG (replacement) guy hired and trained up. 6:30 AM to about 9:30 PM M-F, and 8:00 to 6:00 Sat. My adrenals are running on ma-huang and caffiene. The crash is gonna hurt.
> 
> Hopefully will see you soon enough to catch up.



Oh, I guess I didn't tell you how to PAM when you're seated.  See you Saturday????


----------



## Doc

Thesemindz said:
			
		

> Ok Doc, I'm one of those guys who reads your posts but rarely comments on them. So here goes.
> 
> When I first came across your website as a brown belt, I found some of your comments to be challenging to what I understood. Not what I had been taught, but what I understood of what I had been taught. As I've continued to train I've realized that there is a great variance in the quality of instruction that you will recieve from school to school. I have learned that I am at a very good Kenpo school and that we make very good martial artists. I have also realized what you mean by motion kenpo, and I realize that it is what we practice. We do practice ALOT of joint and body manipulation, nerve striking, and body alignment, both offensively and defensively. The key point is that it's still all based on MOTION. It works, and not only in house, we train with grapplers, aikidoists, stick fighters, capoieristas, judoka, kickboxers, and many other martial artists of assorted influence, and our stuff is quality. I have no concerns there. You have opened my eyes to another type of kenpo though. I understand that it isn't neccessarily better or worse than what I'm doing, it's just another type, system, level of training. I've tried several of your tests, and I've ALWAYS found them to be on the level, at least as far as I can tell with my limited understanding, seeing as how my only exposure to you is via the internet. One of my favorite tests involved moving to an outward elbow position by hitting your opposite shoulder with the fist and then executing the elbow, (short description), and it worked. I felt a NOTICABLE difference in structure. Same with several other tests. We have trained in this type of thing before, and I was told that it was taught to our master by Mr. Parker, but I have a feeling that you have a much deeper knowledge, as we were only given a few small examples to play with. I would very much like to meet you some day and learn more about what you do. I have come to see your statements as inviting, not challenging, and I am intrigued by your particular brand of Kenpo. Seems to me, you're on the level. Ok Doc, I'm one of those guys who reads your posts but rarely comments on them. So here goes.


I am always interested in the observations of third parties. They tend to be a bit more objective.


> When I first came across your website as a brown belt, I found some of your comments to be challenging to what I understood. Not what I had been taught, but what I understood of what I had been taught.


That is an interesting way you express that, and along the lines I have suggested as well.


> As I've continued to train I've realized that there is a great variance in the quality of instruction that you will receive from school to school. I have learned that I am at a very good Kenpo school and that we make very good martial artists. I have also realized what you mean by motion kenpo, and I realize that it is what we practice. We do practice ALOT of joint and body manipulation, nerve striking, and body alignment, both offensively and defensively. The key point is that it's still all based on MOTION.


I appreciate that you dont feel that the recognition of your Kenpo as taught to you being based on motion is somehow bad.


> It works, and not only in house, we train with grapplers, aikidoists, stick fighters, capoieristas, judoka, kickboxers, and many other martial artists of assorted influence, and our stuff is quality. I have no concerns there.


I have always said the quality of what you are taught is based on the instructor and not generational lineage. Sounds like you are testing the water to insure the efficacy of the material, and that can only be a good thing. I commend your teacher(s) for being open minded in his/their approach.


> You have opened my eyes to another type of kenpo though. I understand that it isn't neccessarily better or worse than what I'm doing, it's just another type, system, level of training.


Ah, you do read my writing. 


> I've tried several of your tests, and I've ALWAYS found them to be on the level, at least as far as I can tell with my limited understanding, seeing as how my only exposure to you is via the internet. One of my favorite tests involved moving to an outward elbow position by hitting your opposite shoulder with the fist and then executing the elbow, (short description), and it worked. I felt a NOTICABLE difference in structure. Same with several other tests. We have trained in this type of thing before, and I was told that it was taught to our master by Mr. Parker, but I have a feeling that you have a much deeper knowledge, as we were only given a few small examples to play with.


Yes sir, there is a multitude of information at other levels that is available. Mr. Parker often handed out tidbits of knowledge, but few listened, actually understood, or even stayed around. Even fewer followed up in-depth. Not all of it was intentional, and some was by design. Still, knowledge is knowledge, and pride and ego aside if you dont have it as a teacher, you have an obligation to get it too improve your students if not yourself.


> I would very much like to meet you some day and learn more about what you do. I have come to see your statements as inviting, not challenging, and I am intrigued by your particular brand of Kenpo. Seems to me, you're on the level.


I as well sir. I always love to engage open-minded students of the arts regardless of style or level. I always find the exchanges stimulating and informative for me and enjoy the company. A gentle reminder that although it appears I may be the keeper of this particular approach to Ed Parker's Kenpo, I in no way claim it as mine alone. It is only an extension of what and how I was taught by my teacher and others may be doing exactly the same thing. I do not have "secrets," I do have knowledge of some things.

You are secure in what you are being taught and that allows you to be objective because you are not threatened nor challenged by statements that point to things outside the paradigm of your understanding. As a mad Kenpo Scientist, I always thought that was what acquiring knowledge required. Mr. Parker always said all of us are ignorant about most things, and well informed about a few. The problem comes when we think we know it all about something and begin to actually believe it.

Ive met some great and brilliant people this way and long lasting relationships have resulted. Most recently Dr. Crouch who came to me last year with a healthy dose of skepticism, but whose thirst for knowledge is stronger than his decades of martial arts and formal academic education. A guy who can rattle off muscle groups that I've long forgot or never knew, and is flat brilliant. A guy who hasnt wore a white belt in more than a quarter of a century. Yet, he put one on with a big grin on his face. People like Dr. Crouch, as well as persons like yourself, make it all worthwhile for me personally. 

Thank you very much for taking the time to share your thoughts and experiences from your school with myself, and others like yourself who read.

One does not become great until they realize what they dont know is greater than what they do.  Ed Parker

(Not a Zen Book quote, but a personal one)


Respectfully,

Ron "Doc" Chapél


----------



## Michael Billings

As promised, I am getting back to you on the braced supportive structure created by indexing.

 I have a fairly skilled BJJ submission guy in the school who I worked with a couple of nights this week, he is increadibly fast, not heavier than me however.  He did not think it would work, but in my application of it, I was able to ward off his attacks moderatly well and knew it would work equally well against a heavier grappler.  I used the vertical application whenever he attempted to shoot at my legs, and pivoted up the circle with my forarm (ulna side) between his neck and shoulder.  Sweet!  It really dropped him when I went for the pressure points in the neck, or rolled to the ones at the base of the occipital.

 I know it could be overcome eventually, especially in the context of training where they are expecting this, but that is not the scenario I train for.  But it is a nice initial response to the moderatly trained grappler in some contexts.  The guy who shoots low for the leg only, and is on his knees or belly already, is a different scenario, but if you have an similar mass, you could sprawl back with this and ride him down if you understand how.

 Interesting to say the least.  Thanks and Kudos for the work typing in the explanation.  






 Left over Right
 -Michael


----------



## Doc

Michael Billings said:
			
		

> As promised, I am getting back to you on the braced supportive structure created by indexing.
> 
> I have a fairly skilled BJJ submission guy in the school who I worked with a couple of nights this week, he is increadibly fast, not heavier than me however.  He did not think it would work, but in my application of it, I was able to ward off his attacks moderatly well and knew it would work equally well against a heavier grappler.  I used the vertical application whenever he attempted to shoot at my legs, and pivoted up the circle with my forarm (ulna side) between his neck and shoulder.  Sweet!  It really dropped him when I went for the pressure points in the neck, or rolled to the ones at the base of the occipital.
> 
> I know it could be overcome eventually, especially in the context of training where they are expecting this, but that is not the scenario I train for.  But it is a nice initial response to the moderatly trained grappler in some contexts.  The guy who shoots low for the leg only, and is on his knees or belly already, is a different scenario, but if you have an similar mass, you could sprawl back with this and ride him down if you understand how.
> 
> Interesting to say the least.  Thanks and Kudos for the work typing in the explanation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Left over Right
> -Michael


And when the Bugg stops messing around  and when we actually get to spend some time together Mr. Billings, I can address other issues as well. The mere fact you could pick up the basics from a written description is awesome and a testament to you. With hands on training it can be really funky and my guys use it to survive everyday on the street at work. The "Braced Index" has become a signature posture for my teaching lineage. Like I always say, "There's nothing wrong with the Kenpo only with how some choose to apply it."


----------



## jonah2

Sirs,



I usually dont except anything until proven first hand to me. I can, however, accept some things without proof as being possible within the realm of my technical knowledge base. This being the case with the majority of the discussions above.

I have tried the examples put forward in the post above and yes, I agree, some fascinating stuff  I accepted from the descriptions that the principals were understandable, in my mind, before proving them through implementation to be possible. Extremely well written descriptions by the way, very hard to convey in written form.



Now, that said  I have a problem in my mind with the explanation of increased stability through the last paragraph of the following:



*Kembudo-kia kempoka wrote:*

._Standing in your right neutral bow, throw an upward thrusting elbow with the lead hand, ending with the fist somewhere next to the skull, around the ear-ish. Have your training partner pull down on your elbow. It will cave with little encouragement (note: this is the vector of resistance against the line of drive of the strike, usually provided by their chin). Do it again, but this time, grab the back of your head at the top of the strike. Have your partner pull down on it. It will be harder, because now youve added the support of your spine and back muscles to it: They have to pull your whole body forward. And if you did the corrective stamp when you stepped, that will be even harder still. Now for the kewl part. Do it again. But this time, just reach out and touch the side of your head with one finger. Have your friend test it. Even though your hand is not wrapped around your skull, he will have as-hard a time moving it. Why? Because the body is electric, and being so, is empowered by closing or chaining circuits. A hand floating in the air isnt electrically AS connected to the body as one that has some closure, created by simply touching yourself. By merely closing the circuit, you add about another 25-75% of strength/stability to the limb in that position_.



Im not saying the experiment didnt work because it seemed to do so. What I am saying is, I have a hard time understanding how the completion of a non-specific electrical circuit by touching a finger to the head will increase the stability of the arm / strike. Something I cant grasp



I would have a better time understanding if the theory was that the minor alteration of extending the finger to the head makes minor changes to the muscles within the hand, arm, shoulder thus increasing or bettering the Neuro-Physiologic Congruency / Anatomic alignment etc.



May be I am missing something but some further discussion may help.



Huge respect to both Kembudo-kia kempoka and Doc, and await some healthy _Jonahs mind changing_ discussion



Jonah


----------



## howardr

Jonah,

I think it is remarkable that you were able to get the results that you did from the material given that it was in written form only. You didn't any hands-on guidance, and you still experienced positive results! That's a success story in my book.


----------



## Doc

jonah2 said:
			
		

> Sirs,
> 
> 
> 
> I usually dont except anything until proven first hand to me. I can, however, accept some things without proof as being possible within the realm of my technical knowledge base. This being the case with the majority of the discussions above.
> 
> I have tried the examples put forward in the post above and yes, I agree, some fascinating stuff  I accepted from the descriptions that the principals were understandable, in my mind, before proving them through implementation to be possible. Extremely well written descriptions by the way, very hard to convey in written form.
> 
> 
> 
> Now, that said  I have a problem in my mind with the explanation of increased stability through the last paragraph of the following:
> 
> 
> 
> *Kembudo-kia kempoka wrote:*
> 
> ._Standing in your right neutral bow, throw an upward thrusting elbow with the lead hand, ending with the fist somewhere next to the skull, around the ear-ish. Have your training partner pull down on your elbow. It will cave with little encouragement (note: this is the vector of resistance against the line of drive of the strike, usually provided by their chin). Do it again, but this time, grab the back of your head at the top of the strike. Have your partner pull down on it. It will be harder, because now youve added the support of your spine and back muscles to it: They have to pull your whole body forward. And if you did the corrective stamp when you stepped, that will be even harder still. Now for the kewl part. Do it again. But this time, just reach out and touch the side of your head with one finger. Have your friend test it. Even though your hand is not wrapped around your skull, he will have as-hard a time moving it. Why? Because the body is electric, and being so, is empowered by closing or chaining circuits. A hand floating in the air isnt electrically AS connected to the body as one that has some closure, created by simply touching yourself. By merely closing the circuit, you add about another 25-75% of strength/stability to the limb in that position_.
> 
> 
> 
> Im not saying the experiment didnt work because it seemed to do so. What I am saying is, I have a hard time understanding how the completion of a non-specific electrical circuit by touching a finger to the head will increase the stability of the arm / strike. Something I cant grasp
> 
> 
> 
> I would have a better time understanding if the theory was that the minor alteration of extending the finger to the head makes minor changes to the muscles within the hand, arm, shoulder thus increasing or bettering the Neuro-Physiologic Congruency / Anatomic alignment etc.
> 
> 
> 
> May be I am missing something but some further discussion may help.
> 
> 
> 
> Huge respect to both Kembudo-kia kempoka and Doc, and await some healthy _Jonahs mind changing_ discussion
> 
> 
> 
> Jonah



Accept the positive results and apply it where you feel it may help you, and also accept that through this medium, you're asking alot in the "Why does this work department." At this stage "positive results" is more important than "positive understanding." Complex execution is hard enough, but giving an understanding to information that is very specific in application is even more difficult and probably useless to the ultimate goal of effectiveness. The best lesson here is there is a vast amount of information available for those who seek it.


----------



## Kenpodoc

jonah2 said:
			
		

> Sirs,
> 
> 
> 
> I usually dont except anything until proven first hand to me. I can, however, accept some things without proof as being possible within the realm of my technical knowledge base. This being the case with the majority of the discussions above.
> 
> I have tried the examples put forward in the post above and yes, I agree, some fascinating stuff  I accepted from the descriptions that the principals were understandable, in my mind, before proving them through implementation to be possible. Extremely well written descriptions by the way, very hard to convey in written form.
> 
> 
> 
> Now, that said  I have a problem in my mind with the explanation of increased stability through the last paragraph of the following:
> 
> 
> 
> *Kembudo-kia kempoka wrote:*
> 
> ._Standing in your right neutral bow, throw an upward thrusting elbow with the lead hand, ending with the fist somewhere next to the skull, around the ear-ish. Have your training partner pull down on your elbow. It will cave with little encouragement (note: this is the vector of resistance against the line of drive of the strike, usually provided by their chin). Do it again, but this time, grab the back of your head at the top of the strike. Have your partner pull down on it. It will be harder, because now youve added the support of your spine and back muscles to it: They have to pull your whole body forward. And if you did the corrective stamp when you stepped, that will be even harder still. Now for the kewl part. Do it again. But this time, just reach out and touch the side of your head with one finger. Have your friend test it. Even though your hand is not wrapped around your skull, he will have as-hard a time moving it. Why? Because the body is electric, and being so, is empowered by closing or chaining circuits. A hand floating in the air isnt electrically AS connected to the body as one that has some closure, created by simply touching yourself. By merely closing the circuit, you add about another 25-75% of strength/stability to the limb in that position_.
> 
> 
> 
> Im not saying the experiment didnt work because it seemed to do so. What I am saying is, I have a hard time understanding how the completion of a non-specific electrical circuit by touching a finger to the head will increase the stability of the arm / strike. Something I cant grasp
> 
> 
> 
> I would have a better time understanding if the theory was that the minor alteration of extending the finger to the head makes minor changes to the muscles within the hand, arm, shoulder thus increasing or bettering the Neuro-Physiologic Congruency / Anatomic alignment etc.
> 
> 
> 
> May be I am missing something but some further discussion may help.
> 
> 
> 
> Huge respect to both Kembudo-kia kempoka and Doc, and await some healthy _Jonahs mind changing_ discussion
> 
> 
> 
> Jonah


I suspect the finger touching improves the stability of the position not because of a completed electrical circuit but because it augments our "position sense" and allows earlier and more effective adjustments to maintain position. in effect it's easier to maintain anatomic alignment if your unconscious mind knows where everything is.

An everyday example of this phenomena is the use of a cane to stablize gait. A single 3 ft stick in and of itself adds little stability and would need phenomenal upperbody strength to do so. The cane does add one more piece of information for the brain as to ground position and as such peoples gaits can become more natural and effective.

I agree with Doc however that in the early going just accept that something works and that a specific understanding will not allow it to work faster or more efficiently. 

Jeff


----------



## Doc

Kenpodoc said:
			
		

> I suspect the finger touching improves the stability of the position not because of a completed electrical circuit but because it augments our "position sense" and allows earlier and more effective adjustments to maintain position. in effect it's easier to maintain anatomic alignment if your unconscious mind knows where everything is.
> 
> An everyday example of this phenomena is the use of a cane to stablize gait. A single 3 ft stick in and of itself adds little stability and would need phenomenal upperbody strength to do so. The cane does add one more piece of information for the brain as to ground position and as such peoples gaits can become more natural and effective.
> 
> I agree with Doc however that in the early going just accept that something works and that a specific understanding will not allow it to work faster or more efficiently.
> 
> Jeff



Dam you're good Doc.


----------



## howardr

Doc said:
			
		

> Dam you're good Doc.


So, maybe "completing the circuit" is really a metaphor for something else (what Kenpodoc said). A vivid, useful metaphor, but still a metaphor. Am I on to something?


----------



## Doc

howardr said:
			
		

> So, maybe "completing the circuit" is really a metaphor for something else (what Kenpodoc said). A vivid, useful metaphor, but still a metaphor. Am I on to something?



 Because of the lack of precise codification during the development of significant scientific data hundreds of years ago, information was expressed physically to relay the information from teacher to student. Then, once the physical effect was felt, understood, and duplicatible by the student, it was assigned "flowery metaphorical language" that the recipient could use as a mental reference to the physical activity and its precise effects. 

 Thus phrases like, "sealing the breath" when associated with a physical effect meant "striking a certain place(s), a certain way, in a particular rhythm, to produce great pain, cause the diaphragm to spasm, ultimately making it very difficult to breathe." Thus many methods were created to cause this one effect, but they were all called "Sealing the Breath." The physical reference told which one would be effective for the circumstances at hand. Not very scientific, but when you're on the wrong end of it, you don't care. I think you've been there a couple of times.  So when a method was also developed to counter that particular effect, it was called "Unsealing the Breath," or "Do this so your diaphragm will no longer spasm." 

 Mr. Parker incorporated this aspect of the Chinese method of teaching as he pushed for his "English Only" approach for his American Kenpo. (NOT to be confused with "Kenpo Karate" which was his first evolutionary version that utilized a healthy dose of Okinawan and Japanese Cultural vehicles and language upon his initial arrival to the mainland. Unfortunately Mr. Parker was "stuck" with thousands of patches that didn't reflect his own evolution).

 Thus the self defense technique names and its many synonyms contained therein are a direct reflection of that methodology. i.e.. The original version of techniques like "Dance of Dance" reflected the takedown, turnover and stomping on and kicking of your attacker as if "dancing" on his downed body. Ultimately when the base techniques were shortened this movement was removed at the lower level only to reappear as an "extension" at green belt. Nevertheless, the technique was and is still "dance of Death."

You just got a good grade - now don't mess it up by not showing up.


----------



## jonah2

Sirs,

So  are you saying that correct physical alignment is one stage to gain anatomic alignment, but confirming this position to your sub-conscious will reinforce the situation thus giving concise anatomic alignment? 

Im glad that the electrical circuit thing was metaphoric  had a hard time with that. Ill just accept the result rather than the confirmation of theory.

Thanks Doc and Kenpodoc.

Jonah


----------



## Doc

jonah2 said:
			
		

> Sirs,
> 
> So  are you saying that correct physical alignment is one stage to gain anatomic alignment, but confirming this position to your sub-conscious will reinforce the situation thus giving concise anatomic alignment?
> 
> Im glad that the electrical circuit thing was metaphoric  had a hard time with that. Ill just accept the result rather than the confirmation of theory.
> 
> Thanks Doc and Kenpodoc.
> 
> Jonah



Think of this way; over your lifetime beginning when you first began to have control of your body, you have performed various tasks, and in that process created synaptic pathways to the brain that support these many physical activities. Most of them are actually unconciously engrained into your muscle memory. You body can work efficiently when your body "senses" the need to use or overcome resistance. Or inefficiently if you make a conscious decision to do something that contridicts sound body mechanics. 

Most are "trained" into using poor body mechanics and in many cases have over-ridden and created "bad" synaptic pathways for inefficient and body damaging physical movement.

The human body is a great machine if you listen to it. Unfortunately for many, they have stop listening and retrained it so poorly, they can no longer "hear" what it is saying. You have forced yourself into "Disassociated Anatomical Movement."

In Martial Science, much like other sciences, there is a direct cause and effect to all activity. Martial Science draws on many different scientific disciplines, but all are in some way related to one another through the conduit of human anatomy. There exists a significant cause and effect interaction between all the many parts of human anatomy whether static or in motion. In any examination of the many martial postures and their transitions, the efficacy of its many positions are predicated upon, among many factors, weight distribution and an exacting posture relative to the physical activity at hand.

The relative position of the feet to each other, and their movement, also significantly determines whether structural integrity is created or maintained. Lets discuss for a moment structural integrity in posture, movement, and weight distribution. Any variations in these categories beyond proper anatomical posture can diminish or enhance effectiveness on multiple levels offensively or defensively.

How you move your body in its entirety, and arms, feet, and even the head in particular, in martial science affects the stability of the complete body for a variety of reasons. For most this probably is not news. However what is probably new information to most is that some of the basic things taught in most martial arts fall quite comfortably into the negative and inefficient category. Surprisingly their effectiveness can be demonstrated to be much less than perceived. That is, when these things are tested in the light of reality, they fall well short of their well-intended goals. Lets us define efficiency relative to human physical activity in general, and martial science in particular.

Essentially, the human machine is a large gelatinous bag punctuated by multiple directionally dedicated and articulated appendages, connected by loose and flexible tissue. This semi solid shape is supported by an articulated and rigid substructure we call a skeleton.  This necessary substructure skeleton, supports the human body as the primary load bearing entity, but also simultaneously provides it with mobility and maintains and sustains a general shape. It also supplies the major structural frame for anatomical rigidity on demand.

This relationship between the sub-structure frame, (skeleton) the connecting tissues, (ligaments, muscle, tendons), and the containment vessel epidermis (gelatinous bag) have a constant and perpetually active interaction relationship from one jiffy millisecond to the next. The system software or brain constantly monitors all external stimuli from thousands of body sensors and subsequently makes thousands of minute adjustments every millisecond to allow the machine on one level to function intuitively, and on another, to take directed commands from the central processing unit simultaneously.

By its very evolutionary design the human body unit operates in one of two non-destructive modes, either operating efficiently, or inefficiently. The inefficient mode I have termed Disassociated Anatomical Movement. In order to accomplish this, this extremely complex machine has an inherent ability to disconnect or create a more loose and flexible relationship between its many articulated parts, expressly for the purpose of performing movements and/or postures not necessarily anatomically structurally sound, but necessary for fluid human movement. Therefore by the very nature of the body, all movement is not necessarily effective, efficient, or even structurally sound, even though it may be performed quite easily. This is the reason humans do not move like rigid robots or automatons.

Most modern martial arts place a heavy emphasis on immediate satisfactory results and therefore are usually conceptually driven, allowing practitioners flexibility to achieve immediate short-term goals of questionable or elementary effectiveness. Unfortunately, these arts usually have levels of efficiency defined by some ranking process, and they include belts despite the lack of knowledge and quantifiable basic skills. Martial Arts clearly have taken on a business life of their own. A look in any martial arts magazine will yield pages of books and videos for those who believe they can actually learn this way and virtually teach themselves to mastery.

When any physical activity is taught with only an emphasis on conceptual movement or motion with no regard for anatomical structural requirements and physical mandates, than inefficient movement is the most likely results. The reason this can be confusing is because most martial arts instructors teach from this aesthetic perspective emphasizing the look over the proper anatomical execution to obtain the desired results.

A lack of knowledge has created a plethora of interpretations as numerous as there are instructors. Thus the western term martial art is indeed accurate because of this interpretive aesthetic perspective. Art, (in this instance artistic movement and postures) is clearly subjective, whereas martial science and its proper anatomical movement and postures are not. This explains why one martial art can have so many different interpretations from instructor to instructor, school to school, and even student to student.

This methodology is also inherent in cultural based martial discipline do (way) type arts that choose to emphasize a cultural and artistic methodology over an efficient anatomical results driven perspective. It is also an unintentional byproduct of modern eclectic commercial self-defense arts that lack sufficient foundation material beyond their conceptual design, as well. At least the traditional way arts emphasize consistency of movement and execution from student to student.

Oddly enough some of the most effective of these modern types arts are stripped down bare bones courses that at least allow participants to be attacked and retaliate against a person dressed in protective armor for a more realistic assessment of perceived skill development. This methodology also has the effect of introducing a level of Adrenal Stress to training that is also missing from most martial arts self-defense instruction.

Subsequently, training in improper movements like stepping backwards into any stance as an example, is an inefficient methodology that is readily revealed in realistic practice and application. Using this most basic of footwork to obtain a stance causes the body to go into its loose disassociated mode to achieve the objective. The architectural human frame is designed to locomote forward partly deriving its balance from the swinging of the arm opposite the forward moving leg. Although the body can walk and move rearward, it does so inefficiently and in a definite disassociated mode. Even moving forward is essentially a "controlled fall."

As an example, when you walk backwards your arms do not swing naturally and balance is more difficult as a result. Additionally, moving forward aggressively without the ability to move your arms creates the same disassociated condition. The principle area affected in all of these situations begins with the Primary Disconnect Mechanism, the pelvic bone. The same holds true in any lateral movement as well.

However the converse of stepping backwards to meet resistance moving in the same direction as youre stepping, is stepping forward when you are being pulled forward. Both of these movements are inefficient and must have correcting mechanisms to regain structural integrity.

Stepping rearward without the mechanism makes alignment impossible. Stepping forward however because the body functions to locomote forward naturally may create alignment, but only predicated on either how far or how many times you step, or if an additional correcting mechanism is involved.

Therefore to teach any execution that by necessity requires inefficient movement forward backward or laterally, first there must be recognition of these absolute anatomical facts, and second a mechanism must be designed to compensate, re-connect, or re-associate the body unit into singular structural integrity for efficient transference of power, or to resist body mass driven assaults. Additionally as previously stated, proper weight distribution and postures are also mandated based on anatomical parameters, and not aesthetics.

Other good examples can be found in various forms of footwork taught in most traditional and non-traditional arts alike. Lateral and forward movements where feet move toward one another create similar results of instability and structural disassociation as stepping back. Although all of these activities are a staple of most arts, anatomically speaking, such maneuvers lack structural stability, absent a compensating mechanism.

Lets conduct an experiment to determine if you have the stability you think you have:

Beginning with feet even, step back and settle into your strongest fighting stance and posture, making yourself as stable as possible. Have someone slowly push on your shoulders from the front toward the rear or 6:00 (Presumably the direction with the most stability) to simulate a bodily assault or grapple attack to the upper torso from the front.

You'll notice that the top part of your body is easily pushed backwards until the angle is extreme enough to cause the front foot to lift from the floor, and subsequently the rear foot will be forced to adjust backwards to retain balance. The torso seems to be disconnected from the feet and lower part of the anatomy. The feet only remain in place until the torso is moved sufficiently to pull the feet from their position. This is why street grapplers entertain a measure of success against those unprepared or unknowledgeable. Most are always taught to step back in preparation to defend themselves, and without the requisite skills to counter our own inefficient body mechanics our chances of success are diminished significantly.

What has happened is the step rearward has created the Disassociated Anatomical Condition, at the hips separating the lower platform (hips to the floor) from the upper (Hips to the shoulders) platform, causing them to work semi independently of each other with no shared structural integrity. Thus there is no significant stability to counter any realistic physical pressure from any angle, and specifically from the front.

This relationship of the hips to the rest of the body can be explored in another simple observation. When walking in a normal manner, if a decision is made to change the gait or stride significantly, before one can jog or run, a skipping action must be made to change the relationship of the hips to the torso. This is done naturally without conscious thought but never the less it must be done to run efficiently. This action is termed a Platform Aligning Skip.

In SubLevel Four Kenpo we teach a variety of mechanisms to counter every Disassociated Anatomical Movement we may be forced, by necessity to perform. These mechanisms are known as PAMs, (Platform Aligning Mechanisms), and/or BAMs (Body Alignment Mechanisms), and PAS for Platform Aligning Skip. Because of their variety and complexity, they are explored in detail in the physical curriculum and are taught situationally within the context of specific self-defense techniques.

The important thing to remember is that all rules of martial science are specific, and therefore apply to specific circumstances. Any variation of any portion of the body, no matter how minute, may cause a complete breakdown of structural integrity, as well as other anatomical properties for later discussion. This means all methodologies have correcting mechanisms to compensate for inefficient movement or improper posture.

In martial science posture, there are rules relative to weight distribution. As an example, whenever the feet are parallel, weight distribution (absent a correcting mechanism) must be 50/50. This is the over riding base for the beginning of understanding correct postures and corresponds with the traditional horse stance found in most arts for a reason. However, that is not all. The position and manner of the hands, wrists, head, shoulders, fingers, muscle tension, etc. in addition to weight distribution will ultimately determine whether you are correct structurally or not.


----------



## howardr

Doc said:
			
		

> In SubLevel Four Kenpo we teach a variety of mechanisms to counter every Disassociated Anatomical Movement we may be forced, by necessity to perform. These mechanisms are known as PAMs, (Platform Aligning Mechanisms), and/or BAMs (Body Alignment Mechanisms), and PAS for Platform Aligning Skip. Because of their variety and complexity, they are explored in detail in the physical curriculum and are taught situationally within the context of specific self-defense techniques.


Dr. Chapel hass described these mechanisms as _complex_. In case some might interpret that to mean they aren't practical, I'd like to offer my experience and understanding.

1. They are complex in that they are _sophisticated_. They're not complex in the sense of not being usable in realtime under stress. I.e., they can fairly quickly become subconscious. Once you've been using them for a while they will feel natural and you won't have any inclination to not use them.

2. They are complex in the sense that are difficult, if not impossible, to learn via the written word. What you need is somebody who already knows how to use them properly, to show you how hands-on, make corrections, and test their efficacy against resistance. Testing of the mechanisms will get you to understand exactly what the mechanism should feel like when properly applied. At first, you may think that you've done it properly only to find out when tested that you were off here or there. Adjustments are made and testing is repeated until it works and you know what it should feel like when it works.

3. Many of the mechanisms are difficult to "see" when observing practitioners. Even though I've been studying under Dr. Chapel for about three years, and generally know what to look for, it is often hard to see someone employing the mechanisms. But, oh boy, is there a big difference when they do!


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Doc said:
			
		

> This relationship between the sub-structure frame, (skeleton) the connecting tissues, (ligaments, muscle, tendons), and the containment vessel epidermis (gelatinous bag) have a constant and perpetually active interaction relationship from one jiffy millisecond to the next. *The system software or brain constantly monitors all external stimuli from thousands of body sensors and subsequently makes thousands of minute adjustments every millisecond* to allow the machine on one level to function intuitively, and on another, to take directed commands from the central processing unit simultaneously.


Dang, Doc. How long did you spend working on this one? I can tell by the hour of publish, you should have been sleeping. But thanks: I'm richer for it.

As for the part I have emboldened, these communications take place over very complex electro-chemical pathways. The body is an electric structure. I'm sorry of Jonah has a tough time with the Body-Electric concept, but again, I deal with it all day long. I can place an electric or magnetic device (i.e., a cell phone) on a patient, and test their ability to resist pressure against a muscle, just to see the muscle cave in response to the presence of the electric device. I can then aim a cold laser at them for just a few seconds, then re-test to see that the bodies ability to maintain integrity has been restored substantially & demonstrably. Not magic. Not science fiction. Not hypnotism. The body is an electric field, sustained around a central, organizing axis. Disruptions in the integrity of that field cause weakness. Reorganizations and entrainment of the information resident in that field cause strength. Basic physics: We are more space than solid (quite a bit so), and the energies containing the billions of minature spinning solar systems that make up our atoms in our bodies can be empowered or weakened by the information we provide them.

Not liking it doesn't mean we can't use it.

Regards,

Dave


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Michael Billings said:
			
		

> As promised, I am getting back to you on the braced supportive structure created by indexing.
> 
> I have a fairly skilled BJJ submission guy in the school who I worked with a couple of nights this week, he is increadibly fast, not heavier than me however. He did not think it would work, but in my application of it, I was able to ward off his attacks moderatly well and knew it would work equally well against a heavier grappler. I used the vertical application whenever he attempted to shoot at my legs, and pivoted up the circle with my forarm (ulna side) between his neck and shoulder. Sweet! It really dropped him when I went for the pressure points in the neck, or rolled to the ones at the base of the occipital.
> 
> *I know it could be overcome eventually*, especially in the context of training where they are expecting this, but that is not the scenario I train for. But it is a nice initial response to the moderatly trained grappler in some contexts. The guy who shoots low for the leg only, and is on his knees or belly already, is a different scenario, but if you have an similar mass, you could sprawl back with this and ride him down if you understand how.
> 
> Interesting to say the least. Thanks and Kudos for the work typing in the explanation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Left over Right
> -Michael


Thank you for having the open-mindedness necessary to explore and investigate; to suspend judgement during discovery. My suspicion about the complexity of the human animal in motion is that any technique can be overcome eventually. How often will you ever need to?  In BJJ, I learned some really great counters to things like scarfholds, reverse scarfholds, triangle chokes, mounted triangles, crucifix, key-locks, and so on. Yet, aside from while rolling with other jits players, I've never had to know how to escape a figure-4 ankle lock. I have, on the other hand, had to stave off the advances of aggressive opponents on many occasions. High utilization factor for a sophisticated basic.

Regards,

D.


----------



## Bode

> Dang, Doc. How long did you spend working on this one?


 The question is really when did he write it... could have been five years ago, but applicable for the thread. (I'd be willing to bet). 



> I can tell by the hour of publish, you should have been sleeping.


 I'm not sure he does sleep. 

 But seriously. Some great discussion in this thread. Thanks to the very serious and open minded martial artists.


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## jonah2

Kembudo-kia Kempoka wrote:
I'm sorry of Jonah has a tough time with the Body-Electric concept

I dont have a hard time with the reality of electrical basics of the body. I dont claim to understand it fully but grasp some theory. The hard time I was having is the completion of a circuit by touching the finger to the head. However, the metaphor discussion helped my mindset.

I agree with you that the disruption of the bodys fields will have effects. In the examples you gave above the disruptions and enhancements to integrity were induced by external electrical or magnetic stimuli. What I was trying to grasp was can this type of electrical integrity be enhanced by simple posture or connection of one body part to another with no external stimuli.

As Doc has said here and on another thread, its best to know the how first, not necessarily the why at this stage. A statement I accept. But like Kenpo doc, the word why has been a big part of my life, and I cant help it. As long as the why doesnt get in the way of the physical how then I dont see the problem with intense curiosity. I just want to fill my cup.

Respect to all contributing here. Im enjoying the discussion

Jonah


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

I've been getting a kick out fo "cold laser" medicine, particularly because no one really knows for sure how or why it works. There are some great theories; some very high-fallutin' ideas as to what it does at cellular & atomic levels. But the reality is we juct don't know. But researcher are doing some funky thins with them that show they are more than just fancy flashlights, when used at certain nanometer frequencies. A buddy of mine is the regional distributor for the 2nd or 3rd to clear FDA approval; his crib had been looking into cosmetic uses...melting fat. Literally. They train one of these on the chubby part of a pig; at a certain freq for a given period of time, and about ten pounds of fat melt off all at once. 

Think the bo-tox crowd wouldn't like to use this?  Unapproved application, though, since the net effect on health of ten pounds of liquefied bodyfat hitting the bloodstream all at once has not been researched enough to identify the liabilities, predictably. I work near Newport Beach, CA...one of the tupperware titty capitals of the world. It would go up like hotcakes.

Anyway, my point is not to market someone elses invention. My point is that there are lots of great and amazing things out there, that we have no idea as to how or why they work. There is something about the body maintaining congruence via the act of touching itself, noted in many SL-4 basics. In my own pea little brain, I actually suspect it has much to do with maintaining communication with the quantum coherence of the human form, but that's my own "off the deep end" personal take on it, recently solidified by the clinical uses of cold laser I've been witnessing in my office. Things like 25-50% increases in muscle strength and voluntary range of motion in the paretic extremities of MS patients, brain stem injury patients, and nerve regeneration in the distal extremities of patients with diabetic peripheral polyneuropathy..after, like, 30 seconds to a minute of this thing.  I can't, despite all the guess-work theorizing out there about how or why the laser works, tell you what's happenning to these people. But, when we send them back to their MD's, neuro's, etc., for follow-up eval, we get letters from the Docs saying, "frigging amazing...whatever you're doing, keep it up".  The cold laser only makes sense to me as an electrical entrainment device, raising the energetic levels of the electrons in atomic orbit in the substance of which we are made. Am I right? I doubt it. I'm one mind in a field of better minds than mine trying to figure out the mechanism of action. That's my best attempt at figgurin' a non-froo explanation of how the damn thing works, and it still seems like a froo, untestable reach. But the in vitro and in vivo experimentation shows us something is definitely happening.

Me thinks SL-4 is on a similar page. I think I've swagged a pretty good "why", which, if I'm even close to correct, will help me tinker in years to come. Even if I'm wrong, it still gives me a weak "something" to hang my hat on while I practice the "how", and I like having hat hangars.

Regards,

D.


----------



## BlackCatBonz

hey dr dave and doc,
just a comment on this whole scenario (which by the way im a total believer in), i think that there may be a few explanations for this. completeing the circuit as dr dave points out is not so far out as some people might think it is, also the bodies mechanism of proprioception comes into play. if we take the arm touching the back of the head for example. proprioception is the bodies way of keeping track of all its parts in relation to itself and to outside stimuli (just some background for those who dont know what it does or is). with little conscious effort an ordinary person is able to move their bodies around and know where the various parts of their body are in relation to their other parts and also within their surrounding environment. you could describe proprioception as a sixth sense in a certain way. it receives stimuli and makes minute adjustments to other receptors in the body which in turn control balance and movement. this allows our bodies to move a precise angles and alignments. it also allows martial artists to move with the speed and precision needed to execute fast snapping punches and kicks. i know the bizz word for years to describe this is muscle memory, but my belief is, the practicing martial artist has built up and has more understanding, or shall we say awareness of his or her particular proprioception. 
if we were to take a detective and give him one piece of information to solve a case, it will take him longer to solve it than it would if we gave him 500 pieces of information to solve the same case. the same with the human body, the more information it has, the easier it is for it to deal with its surrounding environment. if you take the elbow and raise it by itself, the mechanism of proprioception goes to work to stabilize the arm and give it the necessary strength needed for the movement. the body does not yet know that the elbow might meet force, so it has not made the proper adjustments in alignment to support it. by touching the side of the head, you have made another connection that the body can utilize to make even more precise alignments to add strength and stability to motion. 
by using and understanding these little tricks and making them concious, you have given your detective (brain) more information to solve the case.


----------



## Mark L

Really interesting!  A few questions ...



> However the converse of stepping backwards to meet resistance moving in the same direction as you&#8217;re stepping, is stepping forward when you are being pulled forward. Both of these movements are inefficient and must have correcting mechanisms to regain structural integrity.
> 
> Stepping rearward without the mechanism makes alignment impossible. Stepping forward however because the body functions to locomote forward naturally may create alignment, but only predicated on either how far or how many times you step, or if an additional correcting mechanism is involved.



Any thoughts on whether a literal step (one foot losing contact with the floor) causes the disassociation or is the act of moving the whole body.  My style teaches us to maintain contact with the floor, sliding the feet as we move (half-mooning).

An earlier post talked about moving into a neutral bow and stomping the forward heel to counter the DAM, I'll try this out when I have partner.



> Therefore to teach any execution that by necessity requires inefficient movement forward backward or laterally, first there must be recognition of these absolute anatomical facts, and second a mechanism must be designed to compensate, re-connect, or re-associate the body unit into singular structural integrity for efficient transference of power, or to resist body mass driven assaults. Additionally as previously stated, proper weight distribution and postures are also mandated based on anatomical parameters, and not aesthetics.
> 
> 
> In SubLevel Four Kenpo&#8482; we teach a variety of mechanisms to counter every Disassociated Anatomical Movement we may be forced, by necessity to perform. These mechanisms are known as PAM&#8217;s, (Platform Aligning Mechanisms), and/or BAM&#8217;s (Body Alignment Mechanisms), and PAS for Platform Aligning Skip. Because of their variety and complexity, they are explored in detail in the physical curriculum and are taught situationally within the context of specific self-defense techniques.




Can you give some examples of PAM's, BAM's, and PAS's that might allow those of us without access to an SL4 practioner to experience the phenomenon?  I realize this is a lousy medium for such an attempt, and that hands-on is theway.  But, there are several here who have demonstrated superior skill wielding the written word.


----------



## Doc

Mark L said:
			
		

> Really interesting!  A few questions ...
> Any thoughts on whether a literal step (one foot losing contact with the floor) causes the disassociation or is the act of moving the whole body.  My style teaches us to maintain contact with the floor, sliding the feet as we move (half-mooning).


Not good creating the reisistance while moving the foot in some circumstances, and the old "half moon" method is even worse. Anytime you move the feet toward each other you are not perfoming footwork conducive to forward or rear locomotion.


> Can you give some examples of PAM's, BAM's, and PAS's that might allow those of us without access to an SL4 practioner to experience the phenomenon?


A simple example of a BAM:
Stand in a horse
look to your right
execute an outward elbow to your right. 
Have someone push against the elbow to check its structure.
It will collaspe. This is what most strike with.
Next before the elbow
"Slap" the forward portion of your shoulder
than execute the elbow
re-test for strength and structure.

The reason this is so difficult is because of the infinite combinations and variations of the many parts of human anatomy relative to each other. This is the real meaning of "INFINITE." Therefore the answer to any question is always "it depends." This information is not extrapolatable to other activities. EVERYTHING is activity dedicated and must be SPECIFICALLY mapped to the activity. Further EVERY aspect of your human posture can and will effect structure. The movement of a finger can destroy whole body structure. The knowledge is not "general."

This is the best I or any of my students can do on the net. Sorry.


----------



## Doc

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> hey dr dave and doc,
> just a comment on this whole scenario (which by the way im a total believer in), i think that there may be a few explanations for this. completeing the circuit as dr dave points out is not so far out as some people might think it is, also the bodies mechanism of proprioception comes into play. if we take the arm touching the back of the head for example. proprioception is the bodies way of keeping track of all its parts in relation to itself and to outside stimuli (just some background for those who dont know what it does or is). with little conscious effort an ordinary person is able to move their bodies around and know where the various parts of their body are in relation to their other parts and also within their surrounding environment. you could describe proprioception as a sixth sense in a certain way. it receives stimuli and makes minute adjustments to other receptors in the body which in turn control balance and movement. this allows our bodies to move a precise angles and alignments. it also allows martial artists to move with the speed and precision needed to execute fast snapping punches and kicks. i know the bizz word for years to describe this is muscle memory, but my belief is, the practicing martial artist has built up and has more understanding, or shall we say awareness of his or her particular proprioception.
> if we were to take a detective and give him one piece of information to solve a case, it will take him longer to solve it than it would if we gave him 500 pieces of information to solve the same case. the same with the human body, the more information it has, the easier it is for it to deal with its surrounding environment. if you take the elbow and raise it by itself, the mechanism of proprioception goes to work to stabilize the arm and give it the necessary strength needed for the movement. the body does not yet know that the elbow might meet force, so it has not made the proper adjustments in alignment to support it. by touching the side of the head, you have made another connection that the body can utilize to make even more precise alignments to add strength and stability to motion.
> by using and understanding these little tricks and making them concious, you have given your detective (brain) more information to solve the case.



You're on the money that proprioception is one of the components. The complexity is such that every activity (read technique, form, etc) must be "mapped" by  someone who understands the totality of all the mechanisms, and can articulate and codify the info into a workable format as part of the teaching process in a progressive curriculum. Students must accept that "why" it works isn't always available information at a time when one should be trying to learn to use the mechanisms on the fly and not get punched in the grill.


----------



## Mark L

Doc,
Thanks for taking time to help me understand ...



			
				Doc said:
			
		

> The movement of a finger can destroy whole body structure. The knowledge is not "general."
> 
> This is the best I or any of my students can do on the net. Sorry.



No apologies necessary, it's what I expected.  I'm just interested in feeling what you're talking about.  I'll be at the dojo in the morning to work your example! 

Since the knowledge is not general, I'll assume (as dangerous as that may be) that you have to teach the student the appropriate response to a myriad of situations.  I'm struggling with, but not rejecting, the notion that a finger position, or anything else so minute on the surface, matters.  That's why I want to feel it.  

Do you build up a repertoire of conditioned responses to deal with some subset of the infinite possibilites?  Do you find that your teachings, after a time, equip your students with the ability to respond appropriately without having been explicity taught a specific action-reaction relationship?  Akin to 'generalizing' the knowledge.


----------



## Doc

Mark L said:
			
		

> Doc,
> Thanks for taking time to help me understand ...
> 
> 
> 
> No apologies necessary, it's what I expected.  I'm just interested in feeling what you're talking about.  I'll be at the dojo in the morning to work your example!
> 
> Since the knowledge is not general, I'll assume (as dangerous as that may be) that you have to teach the student the appropriate response to a myriad of situations.  I'm struggling with, but not rejecting, the notion that a finger position, or anything else so minute on the surface, matters.  That's why I want to feel it.


I understand. Even when I meet people and let them physically experience it for themselves they are surprised, and usually respond with, "Wait, do that again!" They are even more impressed when I poke them lightly on a part of their body with no effect, and then alter their posture and do the same spot and they begin dancing.


> Do you build up a repertoire of conditioned responses to deal with some subset of the infinite possibilites?  Do you find that your teachings, after a time, equip your students with the ability to respond appropriately without having been explicity taught a specific action-reaction relationship?  Akin to 'generalizing' the knowledge.


Because the information cannot be generalized with simple conceptual "rules," the technique scenarios emcompass the principles and teach automatic responses contextually, and students perform very well in real life circumstances. As an example, each BAM is mapped into the technique application with the proper timing and breathing signature. In the beginning it appears a bit stacatto, but quickly becomes very functional. Most of what is learned the body readilly accepts once all the bad "learned" body mechanics are overriden.


----------



## Bode

Doc said:
			
		

> They are even more impressed when I poke them lightly on a part of their body with no effect, and then alter their posture and do the same spot and they begin dancing.


 I dance all the time. As a matter of fact, just last night I danced straight to the floor. 

 In all seriousness, Doc has a class full of skeptics. Smart people who have never, ever been the type to bow down and say, "He said it so it must be true." I don't even believe Doc on some nights, but, and I emphasize, *he expects that from us! *More importantly, Doc requires us to test his concepts on another person, believer or non. Believing someone solely on the basis of rank is liable to get you killed.


----------



## Doc

Bode said:
			
		

> I dance all the time. As a matter of fact, just last night I danced straight to the floor.
> 
> In all seriousness, Doc has a class full of skeptics. Smart people who have never, ever been the type to bow down and say, "He said it so it must be true." I don't even believe Doc on some nights, but, and I emphasize, *he expects that from us! *More importantly, Doc requires us to test his concepts on another person, believer or non. Believing someone solely on the basis of rank is liable to get you killed.


That is correct. as you know I encourage skepticism, and that why we have the "challenge." Any student regardless of rank can at anytime challenge whether something works as taught no matter who says it, including me. It engenders trust when students are allowed to prove principles to themselves and each other. It gives me a chance to rest.


----------



## BlackCatBonz

i think doc's classes sound like they would be a lot of fun........very experimental


----------



## SION

As one who has been there I would encourage anyone to go, as there is a lot of knowledge given out during the class, not only by Doc but the majority of his students. It is certainly fun!!

just one thing go with an open mind and you are sure to come away with more knowledge than you went with.



KJM


----------



## Brother John

Doc said:
			
		

> That is correct. as you know I encourage skepticism, and that why we have the "challenge." Any student regardless of rank can at anytime challenge whether something works as taught no matter who says it, including me. It engenders trust when students are allowed to prove principles to themselves and each other. It gives me a chance to rest.


Personally, I'd only like to CHALLENGE you to a good game of Chess.
That's about it.

(I'd wooop ya...)

Your Brother
John


----------



## Makalakumu

Wow, I read this entire thread and went for a walk with my kids to think about it.

*Regarding MMA...*

Years ago before UFC, I trained in kickboxing and wrestling.  We took each other down and practiced shooting regularly.  It's always boggled my mind that so many MAists in North America didn't know how to defend against the shoot or even what they should do on the ground.  

Anyway, what the UFC did is show that those techniques were important too.  Before, fighters had huge gaps in their defenses...and a system arose to fill that gap.  Now, pretty much everyone looks the same and there is nothing really innovative being done in the octagon anymore.

With that being said, the things that go on in the octagon are only the tip of the iceberg.  I have had the priviledge of meeting and training with some masters that wouldn't set foot in that setting for various reasons (T.T Liang happened to be 80 years old when the UFC first came out).  A lot of things they did and do have never been seen in the octagon and may never be...but they ARE still applicable in self defense situations...

This leads me to believe that what we see in MMA is not the pinnacle, but only the tip of the iceberg.

*Regarding the index SL4 technique...*

The technique described in beautiful detail sounded familiar to me.  I have no kenpo experience (but after reading this thread, I wish to change that) so bare with me.  

In Tai Chi Chuan there is a technique called Repulse Monkey.  It sounds almost exactly like what was described.  If you find a good teacher of Tai Chi (which is really difficult because of a proliferation of the hippy dippy tai cheese garbage out there) that person will describe Repulse Monkey in the same language that it was described and then that person will help articulate your body down to the minutae in order to get the desired effect.

The end result.  My tai chi teacher asked me to shoot in on him as hard as I wanted to.  I did so, full blast, from across the room, just as I did when I was in the ring.  I have trained hard almost every day for 17 years.  I lift weights, do cardio, regularly attend class, and practice on my own.  My tai chi teacher is in his late forties.  He is balding and has a nice gut.  I hit and "bounced" so hard that I was knocked unconscious.  I felt like I had hit a brick wall.

My conclusion.  I want to see this technique from a Kenpo perspective.  I am almost positive that it's Repulse Monkey.  And if that is the case, I can honestly say that it is nothing new.  People have been practicing Repulse Monkey for hundreds of years.  What it does show is that there is an incredible depth of MA technique and the moment we think we know something, there is always more we can learn.

*Tai Chi and Kenpo*

Unfortunately, there are no kenpo schools within a hundred miles of my home.  But there is my tai chi teacher who is a direct student of T.T. Liang.  It sounds like there is a lot of crossover.  On an interesting side note, if you really learn tai chi push hands and not the push and shove chop socky stuff, you will learn how to articulate your body as described above IN MOTION and MOVE articulated so one is rooted and able to deliver power.  A person can move around you and attack all they want and you will be able to neutralize their attacks and knock them over.  Whether you strike or grapple, the end result is the same.  

Very interesting stuff.  My tai chi teacher can do these things.  I am not so skilled, but would like to learn more...and Kenpo has now seriously sparked my interest.

upnorthkyosa


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## Doc

Brother John said:
			
		

> Personally, I'd only like to CHALLENGE you to a good game of Chess.
> That's about it.
> 
> (I'd wooop ya...)
> 
> Your Brother
> John


Of that I have no doubt sir.


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## kenposikh

JenniM said:
			
		

> It is always good to hear other peoples experiences especially when they start as a sceptic, take on board what Dr Chapel is teaching and then recreate it in a sterile environment. There is so much more out there if only we are willing to show some humility and seek it out.
> 
> With regard to Shortay,Soulman and Amrik, I am glad that you have learnt from what I first saw and sought out as exceptional Kenpo.
> 
> Kevin J Mills




We certainly did, and thank you for being dedicated to not only the art but the futherance of knowledge for your students very much appreciated.

NOw must practice on keeping my foot out of the hole.


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## eyebeams

I can *kind* of visualize what's being talked about here and I must say that it sounds an awful lot like:

 * San ti in Xingi.
 * Several movements in Taiji, but the principles sound *very* Taiji.

 I would very much like to see a pic or clip to see if the external posture looks at all similar.


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## Doc

eyebeams said:
			
		

> I can *kind* of visualize what's being talked about here and I must say that it sounds an awful lot like:
> 
> * San ti in Xingi.
> * Several movements in Taiji, but the principles sound *very* Taiji.
> 
> I would very much like to see a pic or clip to see if the external posture looks at all similar.


It's just a Chinese neutral bow, that's all.


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## kenpo_cory

> As a grappler, it looks like an open invitation to slip that lead hand at the elbow, and shoot to the waist, knees or feet for a take-down. My instinct in reaction to these perceived strategic weaknesses is to drop the elbow to cover my ribs, and get my lead arm in a vertical plane position in front of my body. When the arm is up (in the braced index position), a force coming straight in will bump into compressing the humerus straight back into the shoulder girdle. With the elbow down (bones in vertical plane), that same compressing force now only has to compress the hinge joint of the elbow, and over come the triceps alone, instead of the muscles of the back and shoulders, and the non-compressable bone shaft, lengthwise. So my instinct actually causes a weakening of the structure built around this ring of shoulders, arms and hands.



I was wondering how do you meet the low oncoming force? (waist or knee level) Do you bend forward? I was thinking, by what has been described, bending forward would disrupt your structural integrity. The answer was probably right in front of my face on your post and i just didnt realize it.


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## Doc

kenpo_cory said:
			
		

> I was wondering how do you meet the low oncoming force? (waist or knee level) Do you bend forward? I was thinking, by what has been described, bending forward would disrupt your structural integrity. The answer was probably right in front of my face on your post and i just didnt realize it.


consider there are stances that are designed to lower the carriage height without affecting structural integrity.


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## kenpo_cory

Doc said:
			
		

> consider there are stances that are designed to lower the carriage height without affecting structural integrity.



Thats what i was thinking. Now time to go experiment some more. Thanks Doc.


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## Simon Curran

This last weekend, my brother and I had the pleasure attending a seminar taught by Dr Chapél in Exeter, England (thanks go out to all of the good people at BKKU for allowing us to come) and I must say that it could only be classed as a life altering experience for me especially (I "volunteered" for a pressure point knock out...)
 During the course of the seminar, my eyes were opened to a whole new world I didn't know existed, and I left with not only the fantastic information imparted to us, but also with a fresh new outlook, I for one, think it is great to be given a glimpse of how much I actually don't know, this particular onion has seemingly infinate layers, at the centre of which is DOC, (thank you again sir, hope to see you again as soon as possible)
 We were given a few experiments to work with, and I can say with certainty that these things work, and I am definately going to be working on the corrections Dr Chapél gave us, in order to improve the quality of my basics, and thus, hopefully be better equipped to deal with the next layer as and when I have the pleasure of meeting him again
 Anyone with the chance of working with him should run, not walk, and make an attempt to enroll themselves to the Martial Science University, remembering to take along with them a good portion of scepticism and an open mind, your scepticism will be repaid with an eye opening experience, even if you don't understand what it was that just happened.
 This is in no way meant as a blatent "plug" by the way, it's just my personal opinion based upon my experience, but I mean it sincerely, if you are in his vicinity and are willing to empty your cup (I just emptied my few drops over into a swimming pool...) then you will almost certainly learn something.
 Thanks
 Simon


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## eyebeams

Given the comments about half-moon stepping/tsuruashi, I wonder what folks normally use it for. I personally can't contemplate judging it without looking at the context it's being used in.


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## kenposikh

SIMONCURRAN said:
			
		

> This last weekend, my brother and I had the pleasure attending a seminar taught by Dr Chapél in Exeter, England (thanks go out to all of the good people at BKKU for allowing us to come) and I must say that it could only be classed as a life altering experience for me especially (I "volunteered" for a pressure point knock out...)



Hey Simon glad you've recovered hope your journey back was trouble free.

Anyway it was a pleasure to meet you and your brother and you were more thank welcome to the seminar after all it was an open seminar open to everyone regardless of art/science/style.

We had a good attendance there about 80 to 100 people and guess what those that weren't missed the very experience you enjoyed   and as you say an I opener for sure. I feel that what you learnt in that short space of time improved your whole kenpo and not just an individual technique.

We here in the BKKU are extremely lucky to have a dedicated instructor such as Mr Kevin Mills who has spent the last 5 years training with Doctor Chapel in order to incorporate his knowledge into our kenpo. I am just beginning to learn SL4 and hope I didn't let my instructor or the Doc down over the weekend. Being greedy for knowledge I also attended his Seminar in Ireland the day previous and can safely say that the money I spent was more than worth it.

Hope to see you in the future, maybe at the BKKU summer Camp where we have Ed Parker attending this year more details are on our website http://www.bkku.com.

Again it was a pleasure to meet you both and to put a name to the face.

Amrik


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## howardr

kenposikh said:
			
		

> I feel that what you learnt in that short space of time improved your whole kenpo and not just an individual technique.


In my mind, that's one of the keys to Dr. Chapel's amazing teaching methodology. Rather than simply offering improvements to isolated techniques (though certainly that occurs throughout), the mechanisms in SL-4 are explored _by means of the techniques_ (and other drills and basics too). The techniques are the vehicles in which the various principles and mechanisms are demonstrated and physically inculcated. The goal, as it appears to me, is to automatize the principles and mechanisms into _all_ movement (whether formal technique or otherwise). The result would be that any action taken will by default implement all the necessary mechanisms (indices, PAMs, BAMs, skips, spatial distortions, misalignments, etc.), which will be executed naturally. This _may_ occur in the form of a particular technique, but that isn't required since any reaction will be anatomically correct. Therefore, spontaneity _is_ achieved, but _not_ spontaneity in violation of physically correct movement - spontaneity that strictly adheres to anatomically correct movement.

As a quick example: when first learning to step back into a proper neutral bow several years ago with the skips and PAMs, I had to think about each step of the process (because it was alien to my previous motion Kenpo training). However, at some point (quite some time ago) I started to naturally step back into a neutral bow with skipping and with PAMing built-in. Now I don't even think about it. It's positiviely uncomfortable and feels "unnatural" and "bad" now, if I try various stancework without the corresponding SL-4 alignment mechanisms.

One other "funny" anecdote: we've got a large dog who loves to leap at us unexpectedly when he's excited. If I just stand there, the dog can easily knock me over when he leaps. I'm forced to actively recover my balance. However, if I do a quick skip/PAM the dog literally bounces right off me and I barely feel it at all. It's amusing but is a testament to the validity of the mechanisms. I might add that the dog jumps in a blink of an eye from point of origin with very little telegraphing, but I'm still able to execute the PAMs and skips. So, it is effective _and_ fast.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

howardr said:
			
		

> ... So, it is effective _and_ fast.


 

I'm just starting to get the mechanisms in place, and it's making an awesome difference in the raw power/authority of the basics' delivery (still have to fix my feet all the time, but that's what practice is for). Have started using corrective alignment mechanisms in adjusting to save my elbows and shoulders, and now am wondering how I made it through these years without it.


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## Goldendragon7

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> After I started using corrective alignment mechanisms, I now am wondering how I made it through these years without it.


 "*Proper Body Alignment*"  is a definite must!!!  Not only to save *your* elbows,  knees and other body parts from injury, but in the effectivness of your intended actions!

 :asian:


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## Shortay

Hey Simon, it was cool to meet you finally at the seminar in Exeter - great to put a face to a name!

And also great to get everyone together, from beginners to those who have dedicated their lives to Kenpo, all learning from scratch together. It was an incredible and humbling experience to see all our Dan grades (up to 10th Dan) take off their stripes and put on a simple black belt in recognition that everyone can learn something from Dr Chapel. 

I think those who were sceptical ended up enjoying it the most! 

The man himself was as ever, on top form and I can't wait for the next installment! See you soon Doc xx


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## kenposikh

Shortay said:
			
		

> It was an incredible and humbling experience to see all our Dan grades (up to 10th Dan) take off their stripes and put on a simple black belt in recognition that everyone can learn something from Dr Chapel.
> 
> I think those who were sceptical ended up enjoying it the most!
> 
> The man himself was as ever, on top form and I can't wait for the next installment! See you soon Doc xx




Never a truer word spoken now if you weren't there you missed a treat and for those of you who can go see the man with an open mind.

Good to see you again Shortay on top form as ever glad I didn't have to charge you this time 

See you soon and don't work too hard. X


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## Doc

Shortay said:
			
		

> Hey Simon, it was cool to meet you finally at the seminar in Exeter - great to put a face to a name!
> 
> And also great to get everyone together, from beginners to those who have dedicated their lives to Kenpo, all learning from scratch together. It was an incredible and humbling experience to see all our Dan grades (up to 10th Dan) take off their stripes and put on a simple black belt in recognition that everyone can learn something from Dr Chapel.
> 
> I think those who were sceptical ended up enjoying it the most!
> 
> The man himself was as ever, on top form and I can't wait for the next installment! See you soon Doc xx


Hi, Baby! See you soon. I have your spot picked out already. Same Place as Mr. & Mrs Mills. Ask him. Also your "escort" has been briefed as well.


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## Doc

kenposikh said:
			
		

> Never a truer word spoken now if you weren't there you missed a treat and for those of you who can go see the man with an open mind.
> 
> Good to see you again Shortay on top form as ever glad I didn't have to charge you this time
> 
> See you soon and don't work too hard. X


See you next month.


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## Bode

All these new students stopping into the school! Can't wait! For once I wont be the subject of the "Feeling is believing" tests. In the short amount of time you are all here I suppose Doc will have you "feel" a bit more than I. 
 Oh... wait... Doc insist's you see the movements as well.... so I guess that means I'm not off the hook!


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## BlackCatBonz

jeez......i wish i was in california sometimes


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## Simon Curran

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> jeez......i wish i was in california sometimes


Ditto here...

Shortay and Kenposikh, it was also good for me to be able to put faces to names, and I hope to be able to see you all again some time, once again thanks for the warm welcome.:asian:


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## kenposikh

Bode said:
			
		

> All these new students stopping into the school! Can't wait! For once I wont be the subject of the "Feeling is believing" tests. In the short amount of time you are all here I suppose Doc will have you "feel" a bit more than I.
> Oh... wait... Doc insist's you see the movements as well.... so I guess that means I'm not off the hook!



Hey Bode,

I have a plan and it involves the phrase I didn't quite get that can you show us again so be warned as soon as you get picked fro demonstration that's gonna be said a lot 

It will be great to put a face to the name.

See ya Next month

Amrik


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## SION

kenposikh said:
			
		

> Hey Bode,
> 
> I have a plan and it involves the phrase I didn't quite get that can you show us again so be warned as soon as you get picked fro demonstration that's gonna be said a lot
> 
> It will be great to put a face to the name.
> 
> See ya Next month
> 
> Amrik


I also have a plan, Let me think now, what is it?


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## SION

SIMONCURRAN said:
			
		

> Ditto here...
> 
> Shortay and Kenposikh, it was also good for me to be able to put faces to names, and I hope to be able to see you all again some time, once again thanks for the warm welcome.:asian:


Hey Simon I have some pictures of you, going through an excperience I know you do not remember a lot about. Mail me and I will send you a few.

Great to see you and your brother there. Making an effort to experience.

C


----------



## Simon Curran

SION said:
			
		

> Hey Simon I have some pictures of you, going through an excperience I know you do not remember a lot about. Mail me and I will send you a few.
> 
> Great to see you and your brother there. Making an effort to experience.
> 
> C


Sir,:asian: 

Many thanks, again for the welcome, and for the pics.
I will send an email when I get home (at work just now)
Thanks again
Simon


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## kenposikh

SION said:
			
		

> I also have a plan, Let me think now, what is it?




errm don't tell me I don't want to know


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## JenniM

kenposikh said:
			
		

> errm don't tell me I don't want to know


:whip: lol!!!!!!


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## Brother John

I hereby call forth the POWERS that be
and WILL this thread "RESURECTED"!!!!!!!!!!!



SO mote it be.....



It's worth reading through...a LOT.
over and over...


Your Brother
John

((_Let me hear the congregation say_ "AMENnnnn"))


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## bdparsons

Brother John said:


> It's worth reading through...a LOT.
> over and over...


 
Agreed! If you've not studied this thread before, pay close attention to the excellent descriptions of the technicalities of this subject. Unless you are totally close-minded, you will learn a bunch of practical and usable info.

Thanks again, Dave!

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute


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