# Filipino Martial Tradition



## arnisandyz (Jun 24, 2004)

Article from Rapid Journal, Manila
by Pedro Reyes

Found this to be an interesting read. I agree with much of what he says. I've read other sources where some of his info is borrowed from. Talks about history, successorship, teaching, lineage, etc...

"Arnisadores prefer teachers who shine by their own light, like the sun rather than planets that shine by the reflected light of their school or master. That is why arnisadores like Remy Presas and Edgar Sulite claim to have created their own styles, rather than to have inherited them. 

When a student first approaches a traditional master, the master may say, "Yes, I will teach you the little that I know." He would then demonstrate his abilities and if the student likes it, he would stay for more instruction. What the classical master will not say is, "Yes, I will teach you because I'm the 10th degree master of Rabid Dog Arnis" or "The grandmaster of Howling Devil Arnis appointed me as his successor." Such boasts are the product of a later, crasser, more commercial age. "

full article http://mozcom.com/~deadlock/peak-l/articles/art01.html


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## Cruentus (Jun 24, 2004)

Awesome article, from what I speed-read!

Very relevent in todays FMA environment. I will have to read it in better detail when I am not busy here at work!

 :asian:


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## tshadowchaser (Jun 24, 2004)

A well thought out and worded article.  
 Thanks for the link


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## Feisty Mouse (Jun 24, 2004)

That was really interesting.  I hadn't thought of the structuring/lineages of the different kinds of arts I'm studying. 

Thanks for posting it!


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## Flatlander (Jun 24, 2004)

Thank you Andy.  I appreciate your research and your sharing.


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## Guro Harold (Jun 24, 2004)

arnisandyz said:
			
		

> Article from Rapid Journal, Manila
> by Pedro Reyes
> 
> "Arnisadores prefer teachers who shine by their own light, like the sun rather than planets that shine by the reflected light of their school or master. That is why arnisadores like Remy Presas and Edgar Sulite claim to have created their own styles, rather than to have inherited them.
> http://mozcom.com/~deadlock/peak-l/articles/art01.html



Hmm, sounds like a sentence in one of Wiley's books.


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## Dan Anderson (Jun 24, 2004)

This *is* from a book Mark Wiley compiled and edited: _Arnis: Reflections On The History Development Of The Filipino Martial Arts._
It is published by Tuttle Publishing.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Joe Eccleston (Jun 24, 2004)

Dan Anderson said:
			
		

> This *is* from a book Mark Wiley compiled and edited: _Arnis: Reflections On The History Development Of The Filipino Martial Arts._
> It is published by Tuttle Publishing.
> 
> Yours,
> Dan Anderson


hey, dan... you already quoted this article !!!  very good read...:asian:


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## Dan Anderson (Jun 24, 2004)

I was wondering if anyone caught that.  Good memory, Joe.  :asian: 

Yours,
Dan Anderson

PS - I like the quote on the bottom of your post.  Grandchild #4 came into this world two days ago.  Yay!  #5 is on the way.


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## Tgace (Jun 24, 2004)

> That for a simple reason. Once an arnisador starts to teach, he is open to life-and-death challenges. A master who gives a teaching certificate to a student, or appoints him as successor, effectively signs the death warrant for that student. No master likes that responsibility. (A Minor factor that may inhibit the master would be his loss of prestige should the student fail the challenge).



How does this translate to todays, promotional/successorship issues?


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## mike dizon (Jun 24, 2004)

Unfortunately there are too many people concerned with being successors and grandmasters. Train hard and do not worry about being 10th dan


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## arnisador (Jun 24, 2004)

mike dizon said:
			
		

> do not worry about being 10th dan


But if I don't make 10th dan, I'll never be able to become an 11th dan!?!

I find the contrast between the notions of a grandmaster/lineage in Japanese systems and the notion of a fighter/synthesizer in FMA very interesting.


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## Flatlander (Jun 25, 2004)

Tgace said:
			
		

> How does this translate to todays, promotional/successorship issues?


My take on the article was that to take a Filipino perspective, we should move away from the idea of lineage, and let each instructor stand on their own merit.  I can see how this would solve many issues, but I see some downside to it as well. Basically, it effectively wipes out all promotional and successorship issues.


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## Dan Anderson (Jun 25, 2004)

Tgace said:
			
		

> How does this translate to todays promotional/successorship issues?



Tgace,

*It doesn't!*  That's the sticky wicket.  Once RP chose belt rankings as a rating method, the game changed.  I suspect (because I actually don't know) Filipino culture to be less formal than Japanese culture.  The need for a rigid structure system isn't there.  From what I understand, it's more of a "put up or shut up" way of doing things.  The USA has gotten so far from that way of doing things that you can't get into an honest fist fight anymore.  You can sue McDonald's for spilling hot coffee on yourself (instead of saying, "Be more careful in the future, stupid!"), for crying out loud.  Anyway, couple the belt ranking system with the American tendency to go overboard for cultural imports and you have rank issues and successorship squabbles.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

PS - I just noticed up by my name I have been promoted to third degree black belt MT poster.  All of you who have lesser rank, thpppppppppp!


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## Flatlander (Jun 25, 2004)

Congratulations Master 'Super Dan' Anderson on your promotion.


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## Dan Anderson (Jun 25, 2004)

Being one of the more wonderful people I know, I entirely deserve it.  Yikes!  you remember my old nickname.  Anybody out there know how I got it?

Yours,
Moi


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## Flatlander (Jun 25, 2004)

I heard it's because you can fly, and have been caught taking off your clothes in phone booths....


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## arnisandyz (Jun 25, 2004)

flatlander said:
			
		

> My take on the article was that to take a Filipino perspective, we should move away from the idea of lineage, and let each instructor stand on their own merit.  I can see how this would solve many issues, but I see some downside to it as well. Basically, it effectively wipes out all promotional and successorship issues.



You can't change the way things are now.  The auther even mentions that "comercial" arnis is a big change that is happening and says it doesn't have to be a bad or derogatory label. I think if you have the mentality as a student to seek out teachers that want to teach you what THEY have. And not to be sold on the certificates and papers.  As a teacher, you should let your abilities speak for themselves, never be afraid to look bad to your students, actively participate in classes, spar with your students, see if they can beat you.  it should be every teachers wish that the student is better than yourself, then you will know you have done a good job and they can now return the favor.  

The way things are today, going back to "the old way" will not work.  Here's why. The method of natural selection (dueling, fighting ,challenges) doesn't happen anymore unless its in a sporting nature. Because of modern day society, culture and laws, you can no longer settle a dispute by deathmatch. Otherwise I don't think Mr Delaney would still be around. So without that element you will have millions of self declaired Masters running around with no checks and balances in place. (wait, don't we already have that?)

View the article as insight into the art and culture and not so much a solution for the problems of today.

Thanks

Andy


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## Flatlander (Jun 25, 2004)

Dan Anderson said:
			
		

> Being one of the more wonderful people I know, I entirely deserve it. Yikes! you remember my old nickname. Anybody out there know how I got it?
> 
> Yours,
> Moi


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## Joe Eccleston (Jun 25, 2004)

Dan Anderson said:
			
		

> *It doesn't!* That's the sticky wicket. Once RP chose belt rankings as a rating method, the game changed. I suspect (because I actually don't know) Filipino culture to be less formal than Japanese culture. The need for a rigid structure system isn't there. From what I understand, it's more of a "put up or shut up" way of doing things. The USA has gotten so far from that way of doing things that you can't get into an honest fist fight anymore. You can sue McDonald's for spilling hot coffee on yourself (instead of saying, "Be more careful in the future, stupid!"), for crying out loud. *Anyway, couple the belt ranking system with the American tendency to go overboard for cultural imports and you have rank issues and successorship squabbles.*
> 
> Yours,
> Dan Anderson




I Absolutely agree with Dan.  Our (american martial arts community as a whole) dependence in ranks and successorships, and "MY MASTER TOLD ME THIS..." BS tends to water down QUALITY and PURPOSE.  it's great for commercialization of the art, but takes away from the actual VIOLENCE from which martial arts came from.  because in the end, this is why we spend so much time honing our skills... for the reality of Violence.  

I've seen so many knuckleheads in bars act like id!ots because they are "black belts" in so and so art, and they've trained with Master Kiks-aniwons-as, only to face real gladiators who have absolutely no qualms ripping their limbs off.  

So, the Filipino paradigm is more fitting to the reality of our chosen hobby... THAT IN THE END, IT'S JUST YOU AND YOUR SKILL.:asian:


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## Cruentus (Jun 25, 2004)

I have the hardest time relaying this concept to most people, because their minds can't get out of the "martial fantasy" box. That box being that you have the "Master" and everyone koutou's to that master until he dies; then "magically" before he passes away, the master passes the torch to someone else. Then, everyone else must kiss that guys wiener until he passes the torch.

The thing is, it doesn't work that way. Not in Filipino arts, or even strict lineage arts like Chinese, Japanese, or Korean arts. But, because that fantasy seems to work well for business, in almost every culture it has been rammed down our throats.

So what happends today? Everyone is after the same "trophy;" whether its to be the next Bruce Lee, Ed Parker, or Remy Presas, or whether it is simply to be the final authority on a particular art created by someone else. Everyone tries to fill someone elses shoes because that is what they feel they are supposed to do. If you step outside of the box, you'd realize that most of the martial arts greats in the world made their own shoes, rather then trying to fill someone elses.

Off to make shoes....

Gepetto


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## Dan Anderson (Jun 25, 2004)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> Everyone is after the same "trophy;" whether its to be the next Bruce Lee, Ed Parker, or Remy Presas, or...
> Gepetto



Or the next Dan Anderson.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## OULobo (Jun 25, 2004)

I once met an instructor that said he would give his lineage to the first person who asks for it. This would then immediatly identify them as the person to ridicule among the other skilled players, because it would identify them as someone that is insecure in their abilities and arrogant enough to actually ask for a legacy.


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## arnisandyz (Jun 25, 2004)

OULobo said:
			
		

> I once met an instructor that said he would give his lineage to the first person who asks for it. This would then immediatly identify them as the person to ridicule among the other skilled players, because it would identify them as someone that is insecure in their abilities and arrogant enough to actually ask for a legacy.



True.  However, many new students that I have lured into our dungeon ask for credentials, rank, etc.  I don't hold it against them.  Many of people come from other styles so that is what they are used to and they are trying to get as much info to make a decision.  In this case having some type of certification is benificial.


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## OULobo (Jun 25, 2004)

arnisandyz said:
			
		

> True.  However, many new students that I have lured into our dungeon ask for credentials, rank, etc.  I don't hold it against them.  Many of people come from other styles so that is what they are used to and they are trying to get as much info to make a decision.  In this case having some type of certification is benificial.



Sure, but it also depends on how/if you are advertising or marketing. This particlular instructor had very small classes of friends, not commercial/business classes of students and he doesn't advertise. I'm not mentioning business schools in a durogatory tone, just pointing out the differance. The best part of business schools for me is that they allow for easier interaction with other systems and schools, because they are so open.


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## arnisandyz (Jun 25, 2004)

OULobo said:
			
		

> Sure, but it also depends on how/if you are advertising or marketing. This particlular instructor had very small classes of friends, not commercial/business classes of students and he doesn't advertise. I'm not mentioning business schools in a durogatory tone, just pointing out the differance. The best part of business schools for me is that they allow for easier interaction with other systems and schools, because they are so open.



Yeah, I love the small get togethers among friends, I think thats when creativity and learning at at its highest (for me anyways).


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## mike dizon (Jun 25, 2004)

Dan Anderson,

Interesting and true post. I must say that the dan rankings were only added by Professor Remy after he had travelled to the USA for the first time.


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## Dan Anderson (Jun 25, 2004)

mike dizon said:
			
		

> Dan Anderson,
> 
> Interesting and true post. I must say that the dan rankings were only added by Professor Remy after he had travelled to the USA for the first time.



Hi Mike,

AFTER?  Ahhh, that is a bit of history I didn't know.  Thanks.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## arnisador (Jun 26, 2004)

mike dizon said:
			
		

> I must say that the dan rankings were only added by Professor Remy after he had travelled to the USA for the first time.


When do you mean?


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## Rich Parsons (Jun 26, 2004)

mike dizon said:
			
		

> Dan Anderson,
> 
> Interesting and true post. I must say that the dan rankings were only added by Professor Remy after he had travelled to the USA for the first time.



Mike,

No disrespect, as I am trying to learn.

"The Pink Book" has a first PI publish date of 1974, which also is when GM Presas came to the US for the first time. I understand that the cover of the first US edition was from 1976. In back of the book Section :Ranking of Players in Arnis" has Dan ranking.  Could you explain more please.

Thank You


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## arnisador (Jun 26, 2004)

That was exactly what I was thinking...the pink book has rank descriptions in terms of _dan_, then in equivalent _lakan_ rankings. I'm not aware of an earlier visit he made to the U.S., but I suppose I can't rule it out.


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## loki09789 (Jun 26, 2004)

arnisador said:
			
		

> That was exactly what I was thinking...the pink book has rank descriptions in terms of _dan_, then in equivalent _lakan_ rankings. I'm not aware of an earlier visit he made to the U.S., but I suppose I can't rule it out.


Part of RP's legacy was his revitalization of PI arts in PI.  I don't have a copy of the "Pink Book" but if other "dan" and rank type systems were more popular at the time, could the mention of Japanese or Chinese rank structures have been nothing more than referencial or equivalents?  

Then as MA made its way into PI and US popularity the seminar format exposed 'ranked' artists who just kept using the terminology that they were use to in reference to MA ranks.  RP was a "whatever works" type of instructor about some things so if he never really said "this is the way it is" then rank/terminology confusion could have grown out of this environmental stuff.


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## Rich Parsons (Jun 26, 2004)

For those interested in obtaining a copy of "the Pink Book", you can contact Master Brian Zawilinski. You can find his contact info at www.modernarnis.net .

I do not get anything from this, other than letting others know where to obtain a copy.

 :asian:


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## mike dizon (Jun 26, 2004)

From what I knoow, the early students of Remy Presas werent given black belt ranks here. They knew who was senior than the others.


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## Rich Parsons (Jun 26, 2004)

mike dizon said:
			
		

> From what I knoow, the early students of Remy Presas werent given black belt ranks here. They knew who was senior than the others.



BY Here, I assume you mean the PI.

Thank you for the feed back.


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## mike dizon (Jun 26, 2004)

They were not given high black belt degrees by Remy Presas. They knew who was who.


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## mike dizon (Jun 27, 2004)

I would like to correct what i stated before. Prior toleaving to the USA, Remy Presas did not stress or emphasize grading to his students. He only graded those who he felt deserved the grade.


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