# It's time to promote the Kenpo Grand Masters



## Old Fat Kenpoka (May 21, 2003)

Since the passing of Ed Parker more than a few of the most-senior Kenpo grandmasters have ascended to 10th Dan. Some in the Kenpo community believe that only Mr. Parker deserves 10th Dan and that any other 10th Dan promotions are disrespectful of Mr. Parker's great achievements.

As all who wear the two large red-bands upon their belt are far above me in skill, achievement, experience, and contribution, I am unable and unwilling to dispute any of these promotions. Certainly, these Senior Kenpoists are now and have been making significant contributions to keeping the Kenpo flame going. Certainly these Seniors are continuing to improve their skill, knowledge, and teaching and deserve recognition for this. 

As our grandmasters continue to grow in the art, certainly their rank must grow as well. So what do we do to recognize the likes of Mr. Larry Tatum and Mr. Frank Trejo and their peers 10 or 20 years from now if they continue to innovate, contribute and grow at their current pace? It seems that the best way to do this is to bestow additonal rank. I strongly urge the Kenpo community to establish an 11th Dan ranking for the future recognition and promotion of the leaders of our style. 

But that brings me back to the point that many Kenpoists believe that only Mr. Parker deserves 10th Dan and that no others can achieve his greatness within Kenpo. If you accept this, and accept my earlier proposition that our current grandmasters need recognition for their future growth, then you must also agree that Mr. Parker should immediately be promoted to 12th Dan.

Furthermore, as our current grandmasters progress further and their disciples eclipse their achievments in the future, additional room needs to be created at the top. As our style continues to prosper, grow and improve, we should see new pinnacles of proficiency. Perhaps every 10 years, we create another Dan level such as 13th, 14th, 15th etc. and continue to posthumously promote Mr. Parker so that he remains one level above the current seniors. By this method, Mr. Parker would be say a 22nd Dan in the year 2100 and maybe a 30th Dan by the year 2200.

I welcome your thoughts on this.


----------



## Michael Billings (May 21, 2003)

Everyone may want to review the *KenpoNet* thread on this topic before replying.

It can be very tongue-in-cheek on some level, while other's treat it with great seriousness.  

I personally think it ludicrous to create new belts higher than 10th.  When you are there, you are there ... At that level I am not sure why they, you, or I would need 'reinforcement' or 'acknowledgment' of a higher rank.  The matter of titles or positions withing an organization or the KenpoWorld is another issue and open to change.

Oss,
-Michael


----------



## XtremeJ_AKKI (May 21, 2003)

No.

 Simply put, Mr. Parker designed this system, as well as established the ranking system he wanted. To promote him to anything outside that established ranking system would be VERY disrespectful to him.

 10th Degree Black Belt is the highest rank in the American Kenpo system, period. I think everyone agrees with this. Also, there is only ONE Senior Grandmaster in this art and lineage, and there's no worries of anyone getting their own status confused with that of Mr. Parker's. 

 Nuff said. :soapbox:


----------



## Randy Strausbaugh (May 21, 2003)

I have a seminar certificate in which Professor William K.S. Chow lists his rank as Jugodan.  As I said elsewhere, Ed Parker is Ed Parker.  He's beyond rank.  Nuff said.

Trying to avoid life's potholes,
Randy Strausbaugh


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka (May 21, 2003)

Learned gentlemen:  my post is serious and it is toungue in cheek.  

The post is serious in that Mr. Parker's special place in Kenpo will be lost over time as many others ascend to 10th Dan.  It is toungue in cheek in that the sins of ego, arrogance, and self-importance are threatening to enter into Kenpo and that additional elevation does not really solve those problems.  

I was hoping subtley build an argument over time to voice my concerns about the health and future of the Kenpo system, but I see that I must be direct in order not to further waste your time.

While there are few arts as rich as Kenpo, there are even fewer marred by the intense politics of post-Parker Kenpo.  Also, Kenpo has become increasingly more inwardly focused since Mr. Parker's death.  

Mr. Parker was firmly committed to moving Kenpo forward, improving the system, and incorporating outside influences.  For example:  In the late 60's, Mr. Parker embraced Bruce Lee and his influence.  Mr. Parker was one of Mr. Lee's greatest supporters.  I think Mr. Parker learned quite a bit from Bruce Lee.  I think that much of Mr. Parker's deep analysis of and post-Bruce-Lee changes to Kenpo are a direct result of his association with Bruce Lee.  

Since Mr. Parker's passing, Kenpoists have been doing the opposite.  We have been diefieng Mr. Parker, arguing over the immutability of his teachings, over which version of his curriculum is most correct, focusing on ourselves, and ignoring the outside world.

The rest of the Martial Arts community has been truer to Mr. Parker's vision of improvement than has the Kenpo community.  Look at the influence that the Ultimate Fighting Championship, MMA, and Gracie Jiu Jitsu has had on the rest of the martial arts.  The Gracie family has brought about a change as dramatic as  that of Bruce Lee.  Many other arts and schools are embracing this change.  What are Kenpoists doing?  We are debating who was Mr. Parker's most imporant protege and the correct way to do Delayed Sword in the air or on a cooperating partner.

Kenpo leadership is at the cusp of history:  Martial arts in the 21st Century are going to be quite different than in the 20th Century.  We must decide if we are going to either 

A)  continue Kenpo's tradition of being the most modern, effective fighting art -- which means opening the system to new ideas and methods and abandoning old notions of dogma and expertise.  Or 

B)  continue Kenpo's tradition of doing exactly what Mr. Parker told us (although fewer and fewer of us are able to agree on exactly what that was) to revere the past, to cannonize techniques that are already 30 or 40 years old, and to start the long and painful process of moving Kenpo from the list of "Modern" (effective) martial arts to the list of "Traditional" (old-fashioned) martial arts.

The discussion on the ranking of our teachers is an important element of this.  Who we learn from, what they teach, how we show our respect, and what we reward them for determines the future of our style.  If we choose option B above, then we need to create the ranks of 12th Dan (to venerate Mr. Parker) and 11th Dan so that the best of our numerous 10th Dan's can be recognized.  If we choose option A above, then I suggest we abandon all of our red-stripe nonsense and focus on making ourselves and our style more competitive.

For me, I agree with Mr. Billings.  I also think  Option B is ludicrous and I hope that as a community, we can find a way to choose Option A.


----------



## Michael Billings (May 21, 2003)

I understood your intent and agreed whole-heartedly with your attempt to put it forth.  I am also glad you are providing a potential framework that has some gray in the middle.  

I doubt seriously whether we end up with a clean A or B multiple choice in the future, although perhaps that is what the new IKKA intends to offer.  But who is to say that the student promotions or self-promotions, will not continue in years to come, regardless of limitations set now.  I am skeptical that any "Senior" would turn down a promotion from his peers, regardless of current belt rank ... although there are notable exceptions to this, Tom Kelly, Sr. and Sigung Steven LaBounty, for years Dennis Conatser and Bryan Hawkins both declined promotion.  

Even when a student body promotes the Organization President, would that happen without the Senior's consent?  Of course not.  Holding the line at 10th, continuing to incorporate and develop Kenpo to it's maximum potential, and the natural evolution of the Art through the Priciples, Concepts, and Theories as provided by Mr. Parker should be our goal.  New Theories are put forth, tested, repeated that become Principles or Concepts.  I think of Howard Silva's "Stabalized Assistance" as a nice new one incorporating several other principles to acheive an additional result.

By the by ... I think Bruce Lee learned as much, if not more (just to be polite) from Mr. Parker as vice versa.  Listen to some of the Seniors talk sometime, or watch a Danny Inosanto instructor and they will be doing a Kenpo technique circa 1962 or so.  Checks, are part of JKD now.  Nunchaku: An interesting story Bob Liles told us about Bruce Lee flashing nunchaku in the Pasadena school, until Mr. Parker asked if he could hit with them,  then the lesson on the tree out back where Bruce Lee made them effective.  I believe Mike Pick can tell some good stories about that.  There is a great history of sharing in Kenpo and JKD.  Not to mention Mr. Parker and everyone in the Chinese Kung Fu community or Wally Jay and his relationship, just to name a few.  They all played a part in each other's development.  

Oss,
-Michael


----------



## satans.barber (May 21, 2003)

Anyone who spends enough time in the art to get to 10th isn't going togive a **** about rank by that stage anyway, IMHO. It's nothing to do with what you've got hanging round you waist,

Ian.


----------



## KenpoDragon (May 21, 2003)

Old Fat Kenpoka, why would it be necessary for a higher rank for SGM Parker??? He is the founder and creator of A.K.K , isn't that enough??? There is no 11th,12th, or 13th Dan in existence, and for very good reasons. If there were it would never stop, there would be guys out there proclaiming themselves as a 15th Degree Black Belt. I understand that you want to pay respect to Mr.Parker, but honestly it isn't necessary, the man is looked upon as a genius, and one of the greatest martial artists in history. As far as the so called other 10th degree BB go, I don't remember Mr.Parker promoting them to that level, does anybody else????????????????????????

With Respect,
KenpoDragon:asian:


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka (May 21, 2003)

KenpoDragon:

Your comment on 10th Dan promotions is right on the money.  But, it has happened.  Several Kenpoists have been promoted to 10th Dan.  At least one other now uses the title "Senior Grand Master" that many would reserve for Mr. Parker.  

Venerating a deceased system founder and martial arts pioneer is very appropriate.  One way to do that is through posthumous promotion.  Judo has a 12th Dan and Mr. William Chow had claimed 15th Dan.

All of the current Kenpo Seniors are more proficient than I will ever be and I cannot question their rank.  However, I think excessive reverence of even our greatest teachers is terrible and reduces Kenpo's credibility.  I would really like to see all of the advanced Dan rankings based on "time-in-the-art", "teaching contribution", and other esoterica disapear and replaced with a rank awarded after "proof-through-competition" method like they use in Judo and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.

I've torn the 3 red stripes off my Black Belt -- I rarely wear the belt.  And I have no qualms about taking lessons in other styles as a White Belt -- as I am currently doing in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.  We need to put our egos aside and embrace the current martial arts reality.


----------



## webpage20022003 (May 22, 2003)

i personally think we should stop at 10. Do not go beyond 10 why?

if you want to go to 15,  why 15 when we can go to 100 or 10000000000000000 degree black belt?

10 or 15 or 30 you are still grandmaster.


----------



## tonbo (May 22, 2003)

I agree that there are those out there that abuse the 10th degree ranking, and would happily go beyond and on into 15th, 30th, and even 100th degrees, if you instituted them.

However, Ed Parker himself put it quite well.  He said (sorry if I have to paraphrase, I don't have the book with me) essentially that rank isn't the do-all end-all:  "After you are dead, it doesn't matter.  No one asks you what degree of dead you are".

Ed Parker was the founder, and should be respected as the founder.  What I say, or what a conglomeration of others says, will never stop anyone from claiming or refusing a 10th degree promotion.  I myself might not take it, if ever offered it; however, I would accept the confidence from my peers.

The belt isn't important.  10th degree itself is an accomplishment.  Do you prove that you have learned more, if you have a belt with 12 degrees on it?  14?  What if you just got a "lifetime achievement" award?  

I think that belt ranks should stay where they are.  If you want to recognize someone beyond that, give them a "lifetime achievement" award, or an "all-around cool guy" award, or something like that.  As you get higher up, you should worry less about what's hanging around your waist, and more about sharing your knowledge with others.

At least, that's my opinion.  Is now, and will be, no matter what my rank.

Peace--


----------



## roryneil (May 22, 2003)

Did anyone out there ever play D&D? I remember the highest level player I ever had was 11th. When I met someone who had an 86th level magic user or something like that, I didn't get jealous and wish I had an 86th level. I just thought that person was a joke. I think that's what OFK and others are getting at. 
  By the way I haven't played D&D in over 15 years. I'm a nerd in other ways now!


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka (May 22, 2003)

Thank you for understanding my point.  We have created a monster with all the Dan promotions.  It undermines Kenpo's credibility exactly like the 86th level D&D master.  So we should either recognize it for what it is, dress it up and make it look pretty.  Or, we should abandon the nonsense altogether.


----------



## KenpoDragon (May 22, 2003)

I agree with you on the stripes thing, I don't wear mine either. For me it doesn't represent knowledge, only people's estimation of how much knowledge you have. I think I know who you are referring to as far as the "new" Grandmaster goes, if he wants to call himself that then so be it. I don't have anything against anyone who wants to give themselves a "title" as long as they truely deserve it. Does Mr.T, well I couldn't say I've never met the man. I personally believe that there should only ever be one SGM in any style, only one creator of the art, everyone else is simply a student of that art. 

With honor and respect, 
KenpoDragon:asian:


----------



## Sigung86 (May 22, 2003)

Pomposity?   Nonsense?  What sort of nonsense is this Mr. OFK?
:lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka (May 22, 2003)

Sigung86:

I make no charges of pomposity.  As far as nonsense goes, please reread the Black Dot / White Dot theory as clearly described in Infinite Insights Into Kenpo.  This should clarify everything you have been missing.


----------



## webpage20022003 (May 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *
> Perhaps every 10 years, we create another Dan level such as 13th, 14th, 15th etc. and continue to posthumously promote Mr. Parker so that he remains one level above the current seniors. By this method, Mr. Parker would be say a 22nd Dan in the year 2100 and maybe a 30th Dan by the year 2200.
> 
> *



i just don't understand why you want to promote a death person to 15 when he no longer contributes anything and do anything????

He created AK but does anybody see him do SEMINAR or Teaching CURRENTLY???  (Please note CURRENTLY)


i can only see 1 legitimate reason why one want to do that and that is i'm 14 since Ed parker is 15. I can put ed parker at 100 and i still want to become 80 degree blackbelt.

i see why people want to do that because there is all the MONEY come.

If you are 10,11,15, i will invite you to the seminar

that's my 2 cents


----------



## Sigung86 (May 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *Sigung86:
> 
> I make no charges of pomposity.  As far as nonsense goes, please reread the Black Dot / White Dot theory as clearly described in Infinite Insights Into Kenpo.  This should clarify everything you have been missing. *



Dear OFK...

Be advised that I have missed nothing!  NO!  Seriously... I believe that if you look carefully.... I am on yourside... That was, how you say  in silicon valley?  Tongue in cheek!


----------



## Touch Of Death (May 23, 2003)

Obviously there are 10th degrees out there that do not even begin to fathom some of the hard work, training, and pure genious that other practitioners of the art have done. On the other hand some 10th degrees deserve that rank. One thing is for sure is that Ed parker is dead and because people are still training in Kenpo and goal setting(belt ranking) is still a motivational factor, promotions should probably continue. 10th degrees set the standard for their particular group.           
       My instructor doesn't hold a 10th but he does head up our particular organization. Rank or not he is our 10th degree and will promote accordingly. I can't fault any organization heads for the descision to wear the double block ( isn't that a beer?). But If an organization holds more than one it sounds like a circle jerk to me.:soapbox:


----------



## Kirk (May 23, 2003)

I'm no one to dispute the rights of anyone to claim a 10th (unless
they've trained the same time as I have LOL), but I really like 
what Mr Labounty said at his seminar this past weekend.  
He said he'll never wear a 10th, because in HIS opinion, a 10th
means you know it all, and he would rather be a student for the
rest of his life.


----------



## Sigung86 (May 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *I'm no one to dispute the rights of anyone to claim a 10th (unless
> they've trained the same time as I have LOL), but I really like
> what Mr Labounty said at his seminar this past weekend.
> ...



Sigung LaBounty is generally thought of to be a class act, and has the respect of lots of folks.


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka (May 23, 2003)

I wholeheatedly support Mr. Labounty's position on not accepting 10th degree.  I wish there were more in our community with his sense of duty and humility.  Although, I do think that our current 10th Dan's are awesome Kenpokas and cannot say anything bad about  any of them as individuals.

I was acquanted with Mr. Labounty as a Kenpoka and as a police officer and he is indeed a class act.


----------



## Billy Lear (May 23, 2003)

I wholeheatedly disagree with you on this issue Old Fat Kenpoka. I think that some of the current Seniors (even though they posses skill and knowlege, that far surpasses mine) should have waited before accepting the additional rank they have. I also think that the title of Founder and Senior Grandmaster should be used only in reference to only Mr. Parker.

The thing is... someone will eventually break with Mr. Parker's belt ranking system and promote themselves to something higher than tenth. There is no stopping them, but I don't have to acknowledge them either.

Sincerely and respectfully,
Billy Lear, UKS :asian:


----------



## roryneil (May 23, 2003)

Actually Mr. Lear that is in agreement with OFK isn't it?


----------



## Billy Lear (May 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by roryneil _
> *Actually Mr. Lear that is in agreement with OFK isn't it? *



Not at all... He wants to posthumously promote Mr. Parker to a higher rank, and then allow the other Kenpo Seniors to gain Rank accordingly, with Mr. Parker always being a step ahead... I don't want to see any of this happen.


----------



## roryneil (May 23, 2003)

I thought above he was stating he was being facitious and was against that. Now I'M confused!


----------



## Billy Lear (May 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by roryneil _
> *I thought above he was stating he was being facitious and was against that. Now I'M confused! *



If that's the case, then I am wrong. I didn't see the post... I'll go back to school now. :rofl:


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka (May 23, 2003)

Yes.  Both Mr. Lear and Mr. Royneil are correct.  

My proposal is both real and tongue in cheek.  It is a case of sh** or get off the pot.

Kenpo masters who need/deserve promotion should not be able to claim or use the same rank and title as Mr. Parker.   

One way to do this is to promote Mr. Parker to 12th to allow others to grow their rank to 10th and beyond.

Another solution is to "freeze" Kenpo, preserve Mr. Parker's position as the only legitimate authority on American Kenpo, the only legitimate SGM, perhaps the only legitimate 10thDan in the future.  This freeze implies that no one can improve Kenpo beyond Mr. Parker's teachings and that the art is frozen and cannot be changed.  This is the "But Mr. Parker would not have wanted..." argument.  I think this is a bad solution and would be the death of Kenpo.

I think the best solution is to abandon the whole nebulous 6th Dan+ "time and contribution" promotion criteria in favor of a competion-based system.  I think we could all justify something like:  "Mr. Trejo has kicked everyone's a** in competition and should be ranked higher".  This will eliminate the promotion of phonies to any Black Belt rank and eliminate gratuitous promotions of Seniors.  I personally know a few very high-ranking Kenpo Black Belts (in non-Parker Kenpo) who couldn't outfight a wet blanket.  

This promotion based on proven competitive victories works pretty well in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu where if you train long and hard and beat a Gracie Black Belt in competition, you get promoted.  This just happened this week after Brown Belt Eddie Bravo submitted 5thDan Royler Gracie at the ADCC submission wrestling championship in Saulo Paolo.  Eddie Bravo was deservedly promoted to Black Belt.







Fo those of you unfamiliar with this technique, Eddie is lying down.  Royler is sitting.  Royler is getting choked out and tapping for submission.


----------



## Robbo (May 23, 2003)

> I think the best solution is to abandon the whole nebulous 6th Dan+ "time and contribution" promotion criteria in favor of a competion-based system.



I can see it now. Rob since you hyper-extended, ripped his left eye out, collasped his esophagus you can now be promoted to the next degree. As for your opponent, well.........

Kenpo isn't exactly set up for competition.

Why can't there be more that one tenth? You can't be the founder obviously but why can't you acheive a tenth? Mr. Parker has the title of SGM and founder...isn't that enough? Everything else is personal.

Rob


----------



## Billy Lear (May 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Robbo _
> *I can see it now. Rob since you hyper-extended, ripped his left eye out, collasped his esophagus you can now be promoted to the next degree. As for your opponent, well.........
> 
> Kenpo isn't exactly set up for competition.
> ...



I personally don't see anything wrong with having multiple 10th degrees within the system. I have a problem with the title *"Senior Grandmaster"* being thrown around like a paper weight.


----------



## Robbo (May 23, 2003)

> I have a problem with the title "Senior Grandmaster" being thrown around like a paper weight.



Not to get you riled but every time I have heard or read about the SGM it was always referred with respect to Mr. Parker. If a person was ranked 10th they would be a GM, correct? Who's throwing the SGM title around? 

Rob


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka (May 23, 2003)

Mr. Robbo

So how do we know if any of this Kenpo stuff really works?  After all, we are too at peace with ourselves to get in street fights and we can't use our best techniques in competition because they are too deadly. 

How do we know if any of our Black Belts are any good?  What is to prevent an old fat kenpoka like myself from having a tupperware party to get my friends to sign a promotion certificate and calling myself a 10th degree?

We need a rank standard that is proveable.   When you go into a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu school and you see a Black Belt, you know he can effectively use his art to defeat lower belts and defend himself on the streets.    When you see stripes on a BJJ black belt you know that he can effectively use BJJ to defeat most lower ranking black  belts.  You know that these people TEST their skills and all of their techniques against actual resisting opponents regularly.  What do you know when you see Kenpo stripes?  That the Black Belt can do a pretty kata, can recite chapter and verse from Infinite Insights, can do techniques really fast when the dummy reacts exactly as he is supposed to?  Can a Kenpo Black Belt really make his Kenpo work?  Has he ever proved it?  Does  he have to continue to prove it throughout his career?

Don't get me wrong.  I've been involved in Kenpo for 30 years.  I think it is the BEST art in the world.  I LOVE Kenpo.  I just think we listen to ourselves talk too much.  We need to open our eyes, open our minds, and seek a way to validate our dogma in the real world.  If we don't, the rest of the martial arts community will pass us by and we will be relegated to the history books.


----------



## roryneil (May 23, 2003)

It seems like there should only be one 10th, but no one would unanimously agree on who and SGM did not appoint anyone. Just as he did not proclude anyone being promoted to 10. He spoke of tenth the same as 4th or 7th.


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka (May 23, 2003)

It would be great if there was only one 10th, only one SGM, and only one American Kenpo association.  But it's too late now.  And it won't get fixed unless something drastic is done.


----------



## Robbo (May 23, 2003)

> So how do we know if any of this Kenpo stuff really works?



Personally I hope I never have to find out. I can train hard, have faith in my instructor that he is teaching correctly, and from my own experiance and judgement hopefully find myself on the right path.

I think the M.A. community will sort out who is a reputable 10th and who is not. If some person can claim a 10th and impress the general public and not ever be tested as to their true ability what are you or I able to so about it....squat.

All I can do is worry about my own training and whether it is of a quality that I can live with. 



> What is to prevent an old fat kenpoka like myself from having a tupperware party to get my friends to sign a promotion certificate and calling myself a 10th degree?



Nothing at all, but if you show up at a school to do a seminar or try to pass yourself off as a 10th to a M.A. worth his salt then be prepared for the fallout when the M.A. community hears about this 10th degree who isn't.

Rob


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka (May 23, 2003)

Robbo:  Thanks.  Your point is right on the money.  And it is really close to what I am trying to get at.

How does the M.A. community know if a 10th Dan is legit?  
How do they know if a style or teaching method is legit?  

Only by proof.  How do you prove it?   
Some teach seminars which is like preaching to the converted.  
Some break boards or have them  broken over their heads or stomachs which is just plain silly.  
Some do Katas which are  pretty but not necessarily effective.  
Some compete against others within their style which shows that they are effective within their style.
Some compete against  those in other styles and systems  showing that they are effective and that their style is effective.

Which of these methods is best for determining who is an effective martial artist and validating the legitimacy of both the practioner and his art?

Why wouldn't Kenpo want to be measured by the best standard?


----------



## roryneil (May 23, 2003)

...if Such-and-so were a 10th and my instructor was 1st I would not even comptemplate leaving my instructor. You don't have to be a black belt to know who is legit or not. The good ones stand out.


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka (May 23, 2003)

But the good ones don't stand out and most of the public has no way of knowing who is legit or not.  

Look at most of  the Tae Kwon Do schools.  Do you think their instruction compares to American Kenpo instruction?  Look at the United Studios of Self Defense or Villari Kenpo schools.  Do you think their instruction compares to American Kenpo?   Of course not.  

But how would the  unsuspecting public know that So-and-so 5th Degree TKD Black Belt has less experience than a typical Kenpo 1st Degree?  How would they know  that United Studios Kenpo Black Belts have not trained to the rigor of an American Kenpo Black Belt?  People are fooled by degrees.  

Competitive track record is a better indicator:  So-and-so Black Belt won 1st place in fighting at this tournament in 1998, that tournament in 1999, 2nd place in this one in 2000, 1st place in another one in 2001, etc.  If a Black Belt's resume includes a history of competitive victories isn't that more  compelling than belt degrees?  

If I am evaluating a teacher, I will look not at his rank, but at his track record.  Then I'll watch him teach and decide if he is right for me.


----------



## roryneil (May 23, 2003)

Along those lines, you look at their students. They should reflect the quality of training they received.


----------



## Sigung86 (May 23, 2003)

Hey OFK...

Having been at this stuff since 1963, I like to pontificate on occasion.  I hope you will oblige me this time.

Your paradigm of promotion is right for you and some others, but maybe not for everyone.  I think we're missing the point of the Black Belt.  A tenth can not and probably should not have to whip every comer, even in tournament.  You have your Trejos, and LaBountys, and Lewis', et al.  But not everyone is a tournament fighter or rated as such.  That does not keep them from being the rank they have attained.  A high ranking Black Belt is not necessarily a sign of toughness, but of skill in the art, wisdom and well-roundedness.

The unfortunate issue with the Tenth Degrees that we have such a multitude of is that they are, probably, all association promotions.  That does not invalidate them, but by the same token, it puts a different slant on the ranks attained.  They are not the same as the old days when one person, SGM Parker, was the final say.  Nowadays, youre right.  You could throw a tupperware party and  get enough friends to sign that it would be legitimate in that sense.

Another perspective is that there is, and you know from your tenure, has always been high ranking Black Belts that were no where near to a point of being deserving.  The only real validity of any rank is in the acceptance of the followers of the high ranking Black Belt. That really is it, period.  The acceptance by anyone else is, essentially, a gentlemans agreement.  It is all so very nebulous that rank has almost become like a tattoo.  Everyone that wants one gets it.  And, unfortunately, most do.

Insofar as rank above 10th . It seems to me that you really should only go so high.  A ceiling, if you will.  Its kind of like being the President of the United States, and having the last name of Roosevelt.  You are as high in government as you can go, but you just kind of stay there for the duration of your tour.  There may be other Presidents who are alive, and all have the title and perqs that go with being or having been President, but you really can not go any higher.  SGM Parker was a 10th Degree I have no idea how he got it, but there he is.  Other folks have their 10th now, I have a vague idea of how some of them came by it, and others, not a clue.  Doesnt really matter.  Some folks have gotten aligned with each of the 10th s and do recognize and grant authority to that 10th, so they are valid.  

Unfortunately this was the only way it could have ended up.  That is due to the length of time that so many people have been in or at (if you prefer) their Kenpo.  Back in SGM Parkers hey day, there werent that many who would be or even become 10th Dans.  Today is not yesterday.  The genie that agonizes so many people will not go back in the bottle, nor should it.  The good ones will stand on their strengths and persevere.  The ones who are, essentially, bogus will eventually wilt away to nothing, or at least to a position of very limited influence.   

But having said all that, I am not EPAK, and have not had to endure the pains that EPAK has gone through.  I am Tracy Kenpo, and our school head is still around and kicking What happens when Al Tracy passes over (May it be a long time coming) To borrow an Arab  philosophy, is in the hands of Allah. :lol:

In the spirit of the art, I understand and really agree with you.  On the other hand, it appears we are in the grips of an inevitability.

Be of good cheer We are children of the Universe.  No less than the trees and the stars.  We have a right to be here.  And whether or not we know it The universe is laughing behind our backs.  :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Dan Farmer 

Probably an Older Fat Kenpoka.


----------



## webpage20022003 (May 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *
> 
> One way to do this is to promote Mr. Parker to 12th to allow others to grow their rank to 10th and beyond.
> ...



people only do this because of their PERSONAL GAIN and it doesn't have anything to do with RESPECTING or APPRECIATING or whatever word you want to put for Ed Parker

it is not a good intention.



> *
> 
> 
> This promotion based on proven competitive victories works pretty well in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu where if you train long and hard and beat a Gracie Black Belt in competition, you get promoted.  This just happened this week after Brown Belt Eddie Bravo submitted 5thDan Royler Gracie at the ADCC submission wrestling championship in Saulo Paolo.  Eddie Bravo was deservedly promoted to Black Belt.
> ...



only a black belt ??? you or these people must be KIDDING me. I expect this guy to have 6 degree blackbelt why?

he just kicked 5th black belt A.S.S. There is something wrong with this Royler Gracie guy. Can't fight against a brown belt guy ?????

if you are telling me that this is a competition ONLY and if this happens in LIFE, Royler will kick EDDIE A.S.S

if SO, the whole idea of promoting people based on their ability to kick somebody's A.S.S is NO GOOD. Why?

1- you learn martial art because you want to defense yourself or other good reasons. You don't learn it because you want to run around and kick somebody A.S.S

2-Gracie's family has a terrible idea. These people claims that their style is good because they challenge everybody and beat the h.e.l.l out of them. Come on NOW, The only people who accept Gracie's family challenge are NOTHING but a bunch of arrogant and stupid guys who want to PROVE something.

i'll be impressed and ABSOLUTELY call Gracie people my GRANDMASTER if they can beat PROFESSOR CHOW or any TRUE SHAOLIN MONKS or BRUCE LEE or GRANDMASTER of KARATE or JUJITSU in Japan


----------



## XtremeJ_AKKI (May 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *So how do we know if any of this Kenpo stuff really works?  After all, we are too at peace with ourselves to get in street fights....*


*

 If you're ever in Las Vegas, go to a club called Dylan's and ask the AKKI black belts on staff there if this stuff works on the street. Or call up Mr. Paul Mills and ask him about his around-20 years of experience using this stuff in a rough-n-tumble nightclub.   




			How do we know if any of our Black Belts are any good?
		
Click to expand...


 Can they hit with power, speed, and accuracy? Can they easily control the level of damage they can inflict? Can they alter the severity of a situation by being aware of and using their options? 




			We need a rank standard that is proveable.   When you go into a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu school and you see a Black Belt, you know he can effectively use his art to defeat lower belts and defend himself on the streets.    When you see stripes on a BJJ black belt you know that he can effectively use BJJ to defeat most lower ranking black  belts.  You know that these people TEST their skills and all of their techniques against actual resisting opponents regularly.
		
Click to expand...


 You compare the standards of a system designed for and geared towards self-preservation with those of an art primarily designed for competition? 




			What do you know when you see Kenpo stripes?  That the Black Belt can do a pretty kata, can recite chapter and verse from Infinite Insights, can do techniques really fast when the dummy reacts exactly as he is supposed to?
		
Click to expand...


 That's a pretty big generalization you just put on a lot of folks there, to insinuate that AK BB's can't use their skills.




			Can a Kenpo Black Belt really make his Kenpo work?
		
Click to expand...


 There is indeed a proving ground for this; I grew up in it, and it sure as Hell isn't a mat, or the Octagan, or a Vale Tudo ring. It's the street. No rules, no time limits, no judges, no padding. 




			I just think we listen to ourselves talk too much. We need to open our eyes, open our minds, and seek a way to validate our dogma in the real world.
		
Click to expand...


 For someone who seems rather obsessed with the issue of rank, you sure do contradict yourself with that last statement there. 

 Now for the breakdown.....there is no ONE grandmaster anymore, there is no ONE association, and there is no ONE standard. People will do what they feel is best for them, period. And as a martial artist, honor demands that you respect the path of others, as long as it is not detrimental to your own path and good intentions. For some, the standard is higher; for others, it is lower. However, I've found that more positive forward movement is found in doing your own thing, rather than sitting around on a computer worrying about everyone else's rank. 

 Just my thoughts. I won't sugarcoat them, and sometimes the truth hurts. However ( as KenpoJoe would say ), it is STILL the truth. 

 'Nuff said.*


----------



## XtremeJ_AKKI (May 23, 2003)

Some of us sure seem obsessed with competing, along with the Gracie family. Last time I checked, I couldn't compete at the local tournaments because not only would the movements I've trained to execute ( on the street, as AK is designed for ) be illegal in competition, but they could very possibly injure, maim, or even kill an opponent. I suppose I should take off my black belt now, since I can't compete to ' prove my worth ' as a Kenpo BB. 

 What a drag. :idunno:


----------



## D.Cobb (May 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by KenpoDragon _
> *Old Fat Kenpoka, why would it be necessary for a higher rank for SGM Parker??? He is the founder and creator of A.K.K , isn't that enough??? There is no 11th,12th, or 13th Dan in existence, and for very good reasons. If there were it would never stop, there would be guys out there proclaiming themselves as a 15th Degree Black Belt. I understand that you want to pay respect to Mr.Parker, but honestly it isn't necessary, the man is looked upon as a genius, and one of the greatest martial artists in history. As far as the so called other 10th degree BB go, I don't remember Mr.Parker promoting them to that level, does anybody else????????????????????????
> 
> With Respect,
> KenpoDragon:asian: *



I believe there are higher ranks in some other styles. One fellow, I have had dealings with from PA., holds something like 15th Dan in Ninjutsu, I'm not sure which system.
Having said that, I would have to agree with Mr. Billings,  that 10th is what EP designed and therefore should remain as the top of the tree. As to the others not caring about what hangs around their waists, if that were true, then they themselves would not have 10th dan after their names. After all, if Mr. Parker was the only 10th, then who promoted these guys after he died? Who would be qualified to promote to 10th if the only true 10th is dead?

--Dave

:asian:


----------



## D.Cobb (May 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *But the good ones don't stand out and most of the public has no way of knowing who is legit or not.
> 
> Look at most of  the Tae Kwon Do schools.  Do you think their instruction compares to American Kenpo instruction?  Look at the United Studios of Self Defense or Villari Kenpo schools.  Do you think their instruction compares to American Kenpo?   Of course not.
> ...



All this shows is that BB can do sports kenpo according to the rules laid out by X tournament organizers. It would not show anything toward judging whether or not his AK was any good.
--Dave


----------



## webpage20022003 (May 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *But the good ones don't stand out and most of the public has no way of knowing who is legit or not.
> *



a good point. We don't know but I KNOW this....the TRUTH will eventually come out. We will decide whether to stay or not. 

USE YOUR HEAD



> *
> 
> But how would the  unsuspecting public know that So-and-so 5th Degree TKD Black Belt has less experience than a typical Kenpo 1st Degree?  How would they know  that United Studios Kenpo Black Belts have not trained to the rigor of an American Kenpo Black Belt?  People are fooled by degrees.
> *



another good point. There is 1 way to settle this issue and that IS
if you think i'm no good, why do you and I walk out side and FIGHT?

if I kick your A.S.S, you SHOULD NEVER EVER come to see me again and please do not event mention about our fight 

if you kick my A.S.S, your experiences and skills speak for themselves




> *
> Competitive track record is a better indicator:  So-and-so Black Belt won 1st place in fighting at this tournament in 1998, that tournament in 1999, 2nd place in this one in 2000, 1st place in another one in 2001, etc.  If a Black Belt's resume includes a history of competitive victories isn't that more  compelling than belt degrees?
> 
> If I am evaluating a teacher, I will look not at his rank, but at his track record.  Then I'll watch him teach and decide if he is right for me. *



everybody has their point of view about choosing the instructor. But REMEMBER this

In the tournament, we are looking for SCORE. You get more SCORES, you WIN. 

In the STREET, there is no SCORE. Baseball bat, knive, everything goes. We are looking for SURVIVAL.

and it only takes less than 1 minute to know if we survive or not in the STREET WHILE it takes more than 30 MINTUES to know who Wins in TOURNAMENT


----------



## roryneil (May 24, 2003)

Isn't promotion at higher ranks what the AKSC was designed for? A group of higher level belts from different associations brought together for high level promotion? If more people would be involved that would be great. But then I suppose that many would be against the AKSC due to the fact that they wouldn't get their 10th or whatever, or maybe would be deemed a good green belt possibly.


----------



## Michael Billings (May 24, 2003)

That is exactly what they were set up to do.  Unfortunatly there were and are some problems.

1.  Not everyone was invited, notably some of the highest ranking belts in the United States.

2.  Not everyone "stuck to their guns" and the Senior Counsel could not tell another 7th that he could not promote his own students.

3.  Curriculum inconsistancies remained.

4.  It fragmented as new Associations came into being who did not "Buy off" on the AKSC to start with.

5.  Sr. Counsel members accepted rank from other sources than the Sr. Counsel.

Having said that, it was a great idea to have an umbrella organization sanctioning promotions of 4th Black and above.  This should have ensured some consistancy and quality control for that level.  It fell apart (another thread all together) or at least lost it's original internal consistancy.  It survives after a fashion and member schools subscribe to it's standards ... there just are not that many member schools to my knowledge.  

Unfortunate outcome of a fine beginning.  It was an awsome camp at which the whole thing was started.  I have never been in the company of so many Black Belts.  One of my guys tested for 1st Black, I got to see Mr. LaBounty and Mr. Kelly bumped from 7th to 9th, by enough of the Kenpo community of Seniors for anyone to acknowledge and accept the validity.  However, Mr. Kelly and LaBounty have remained 9th's, while some of the promoting 7th's are now 10th.  

I ramble ... I will stop!

Oss!


----------



## roryneil (May 25, 2003)

No, please go on. Very informative. Maybe that's what the IKKA is aiming at becoming.


----------



## Sigung86 (May 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *That is exactly what they were set up to do.  Unfortunatly there were and are some problems.
> 
> 1.  Not everyone was invited, notably some of the highest ranking belts in the United States.
> ...



Michael,  

I do not think it is rambling when you are making sense.  So many issues, so few people willing and/or able to equate resolution.

Sso!


----------



## lonekimono (May 26, 2003)

to take the stripes off of your belt,,, well what are you saying about your art?? now i do agree with alot that i read on this post
but not the above!! (but thats just me) i have always said  
"stay true to your art" for if one was to take the strips off, than the style or system would have a void in it, now i know it might be a personal thing for one's self!! but still there would be alot of explaining to your student's as why the sensei can do that.
just something to think about.:asian:


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka (May 27, 2003)

Lonekimono:

I am true to my art.  However, my art is not a religion.  I do not believe in martial-arts-miracles.  I will not follow my art without question as some do their religion.

I removed my stripes for several reasons:  1)  I want to be humble.  I want respect but not reverence.  2)  After all these years, I still want to be a student.  3)  It is less embarrasing when I get my *** kicked by Brazilian Jiu Jitsu underbelts.


----------



## lonekimono (May 27, 2003)

Well i see you have your own reason's for doing what you do
and that's fine, but to get your *** kicked by anyone???
what is up with that???  i'll stop here.

 ps. try not to get beat up anymore :asian:


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka (May 27, 2003)

Lonekimono:

Since BJJ people train by sparring, you get your *** kicked every time you train with someone with more experience and better technique.  Since they are not striking, it doesn't hurt too bad.  You just have to "tap" to indicate submission to chokes and armbars.  When you are stuck in an armbar or choke, you tap before you get hurt, but you have no doubt that you just got your *** kicked.  Since you typically spar for an hour or more each time you train, you can wind up getting your *** kicked 40 or 50 times a day when you first start out.

As you train more, you learn to defend better, you learn to hold your position.  Eventually, you learn to dominate and submit your opponents.  You test your skills each and every minute you train and there is no nonsense about rank.  Only what you and everyone else can see about how you are doing at that moment against your current opponent.


----------



## lonekimono (May 27, 2003)

Well lets see ,i don't know if your name really is who you are (lol)
don't get mad only joking with you.
but i have to tell you that if you got that rank in kenpo than i don't see why you would want to do something other than KENPO
now don't get me wrong i  know there are alot of arts out there
and like Mr Parker said "there is good in all arts" but for the last 38 years it is kenpo,,,, "my mother art" anyway stay stong and watch out for your back when you hit the floor.





> how do we know that the sky is blue, because we are told!!!


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka (May 27, 2003)

Lonekimono:

I started Kenpo in 1973.  I loved it.  In many ways I still do.  It is now and will always be my primary style.  At the beginning, I was passionate about training, learning, improving.  My Kenpo skills peaked between 1990 and 1993 when I got my 3rd Dan.  The Dojo I trained at closed at the beginning of 1995 after the owner's other business went belly up.  

In 1995, I became journeyman. I visited and joined many Kenpo and Karate schools after that.  I wanted to learn new stuff, but everywhere I went, people knew me, insisted I wear my rank, and asked me to teach.  Like an old rock star tired of performing his hits from the early 70's, I got tired of doing the same drills, same techniques, same katas.  I had to do something different to regain the vigor and passion of my youth.  I needed to start over in an art where I didn't know anything, where I could learn something totally new and different.  I also needed to go to a school where they didn't recognize me, didn't want me to wear my Black Belt with all the stripes, didn't want me to teach their classes for them .

After a long search, I discovered BJJ.  I have rediscovered the passion that has been missing from my last few years in Kenpo.  And, I've discovered a totally new and different philosophy of movement and rank evaluation.  

In BJJ, I've discovered that many of the principals I've held as basic facts might not be as true as my Kenpo brethren and myself previously believed.  For instance, I thought Kenpo undersood weight distribution and the application of mass -- "the Marriage of Gravity."   Two lessons into BJJ, I realized that Kenpo isn't married to gravity--it is just flirting and that the BJJ folks are really married to gravity.  

None of the BJJ guys I roll with know anything about Kenpo.  They don't know how it is so much different and so much more than regular J/O Karate.  And they don't care.  They just want to get you on the ground, get a superior position, and make you submit.  And that in and of itself is impressive:  no argument about which style is better, which way a technique should be done.  Just get on the mat and do it.  Comparing the BJJ perception of reality and all the Kenpo talk about this and that association and this and that 10thDan is what lead me to start this thread.

P.S.  as far as my "Old Fat Kenpoka" name goes, I am not using my real name so as not imply any connection or endorsement from my association, instructors, peers, or students re this debate.   As far as "Old":  I am 42, not old by Kenpo standards, but way up there among my BJJ class mates.  As far as "Fat" goes, I am 5'10" with broad shoulders and a 48" chest.  I've had a 42" waist since before getting my 2nd Dan.   After only my first two months doing BJJ I got down to a 38"--the same as when I was in college.


----------



## webpage20022003 (May 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by lonekimono _
> * but to get your *** kicked by anyone???
> what is up with that???  i'll stop here.
> 
> ps. try not to get beat up anymore :asian: *




an EXCELLENCE POINT. I haven't heard something like this for CENTURY

i didn't realize that people are proud of being American and even PROUDER to tell other their A.S.S got kicked.  Can't beat it

Crank up the VOLUME, young BOY. I like it


----------



## webpage20022003 (May 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by lonekimono _
> *
> 
> but i have to tell you that if you got that rank in kenpo than i don't see why you would want to do something other than KENPO
> *



that is something I never understand when I look at some Kempo/Kenpo guys.

Their resume is very impressive. They learn a lot of Arts including Kempo/Kenpo. 

i would like to know what art you will use to defense yourself on the street ??????

please do not tell me that you will use all the arts you have learned to defense yourself because it will be the most ridiculous thing i ever hear.

tell me about that and i will let you know why it is a JOKE

can't wait to laugh out loud. I'm waiting


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka (May 27, 2003)

webpage20022003:  What's with all the hate man?

As far as getting beaten during training, don't you ever get pointed when you spar?  Don't you ever spar against someone much much more proficient than you?  Doesn't that person kick your ***?  Isn't it fun sparring with someone really really good?


----------



## roryneil (May 27, 2003)

I don't like the analogy that because a BJJ guy beat you at wrestling that BJJ is a superior art to Kenpo. That's bull. My friend is up there in Akido and always wants to spar. Frankly I am then at a disadvantage as I would be against BJJ, because they are GENTLER arts! I mean, did you gouge the guys eye and crush his testicles? Of course not. You had to play his game in his arena. Now if you are just talking about the workout, do what makes you feel the best. But you can't compare the effectiveness of the arts like that.


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka (May 27, 2003)

NO!  When I train BJJ I do not poke eyes or grab testicles.  I don't kick or punch either.   In return, they don't drop me on my head, don't break my arm, don't choke me to the point of unconsciousness and don't break my neck.    

I am not arguing that BJJ is a better style.  I am only arguing that the training method is more realistic because all techniques are practiced against a resisting partner instead of a cooperating one and that the advanced ranking is more skill based due to BJJ's competitive focus.


----------



## roryneil (May 27, 2003)

Now THAT I can't comment on as I am not a higher lever belt 
However, doesn't that fall on you and other BB's to get together and pound on eachother a bit?


----------



## Sigung86 (May 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *NO!  When I train BJJ I do not poke eyes or grab testicles.  I don't kick or punch either.   In return, they don't drop me on my head, don't break my arm, don't choke me to the point of unconsciousness and don't break my neck.
> 
> I am not arguing that BJJ is a better style.  I am only arguing that the training method is more realistic because all techniques are practiced against a resisting partner instead of a cooperating one and that the advanced ranking is more skill based due to BJJ's competitive focus. *



OFK,

The reason your training is more "realistic" is that it is applied principles of the art you are learning.  Would seem silly to be learning one art, like say, baking, and training in a manner that is suited to make you a painter.

Your path is good for you.  It is recovering your lost passion and vigor... Some older guys go for Corvettes, gold chains and hair pieces. :rofl:

However, your training methods, in no way, denigrate or make Kenpo training any less effective.  Tools are tools... You train with the tools that are pertinent to the task at hand, and you become effective.  

Like someone else said, BJJ is what it is... Kenpo is what it is, JKD is what it is ... ad infinitum, ad nauseum.  You pick a path... You drop your rank in Kenpo and go where no one knows your are an amazing third degree Black Belt... And there you are... You are emminently happy getting your butt kicked.  That is, as I said, cool for you... Probably not for everyone else.  

If  you were not able to keep the fire alive in what you were doing.... The fault lies in the man, and not the system.

Dan


----------



## lonekimono (May 27, 2003)

OK rock and roll,, and i think roll is the word to use here.
as far as any style (what one is better) i don't play that
i LOVE kenpo and it is KENPO that saved my life alot of times on the street and thats how i feel about the whole thing.:asian:


----------



## brianhunter (May 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *I am only arguing that the training method is more realistic because all techniques are practiced against a resisting partner instead of a cooperating one and that the advanced ranking is more skill based due to BJJ's competitive focus. *



You can train Kenpo "dynamically" as well, doesnt hurt to take a punch or two if you have a good partner, follow up smack your partner around with the other hand if he isnt checking his zones.....If it is a punch to the face make it a punch to the face, A lot of kenpoist train this way and dont go the "air kenpo" route. Technique lines and a good partner to "bang" on should be done dynamically. Lots of people do it
BJJ is as awsome ground fighting art in a controlled environment, they do train hard......but if someone is going to try to get me to the ground they are gonna pay for it, Ill be damned if I end up on the ground. I learned how to do this in kenpo and have put it into application on the streets. They both are what you make of them as is any art it is what it is I guess, but I have a serious issue with writing kenpo off because they dont have "realistic" training methods, if the training method isnt realistic I think kenpo has several tools to make it so.

Happy Hunting


----------



## lonekimono (May 27, 2003)

Way to go hunter i like how you put it, you get a 10 from me
and i want to say that in kenpo we do the same stuff, it's just to bad that  this person don't see it, oh well  to bad!!!





> goodnight john boy


----------



## webpage20022003 (May 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *webpage20022003:  What's with all the hate man?
> 
> As far as getting beaten during training, don't you ever get pointed when you spar?  Don't you ever spar against someone much much more proficient than you?  Doesn't that person kick your ***?  Isn't it fun sparring with someone really really good? *



it is my bad. Sorry. No bad feeling between us.  Just try to reply to another poster. No implication or anything.

to tell you the truth, i like to spar with somebody who is better than me because i want to be good.

agree with everything you said right here. You made your point, man


----------



## webpage20022003 (May 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by lonekimono _
> * it's just to bad that  this person don't see it, oh well  to bad!!!  *



i have to disagree with you about this. Old fat kenpo has his point which is understandable.

I'm sure he is not the first one who does this. The fact that he mentions in his post is well-taken.

he does what it is necessary for him.

for you to say that he doesn't see it is ABSOLUTELY WRONG. If he doesn't see it, he doesn't have to go to take BJJ or another Arts and simply sticks to Kenpo for years.

It is important to ask ourselve if this art works for me or not during our training. You can't accept or learn thing BLINDLY and BELIEVE that it will work on the STREET.

i don't know how OLD FAT KENPO trains or practices his art and i certainly don't know how his school conducts its teaching. Therefore, i can't comment about it. BUT i will say this

Do not try to tell him that he doesn't see thing. I don't know your art much but Hopefully, i will be able to have a training session in a future so that you can tell me whether your art works for me or anybody yet.

Perhaps, we can spar a little bit. I do not challenge you. I just want to put this quote


Bruce Lee said "you should be able to defend yourself; it doesn't matter what art you take"


----------



## lonekimono (May 28, 2003)

you want to spar with me???? why ? what's that about?
i don't do that,don't need to i did all that stuff in the late 60's and the 70's and buy the way i DID NOT SAY ANYTHING about the way he trained!!!! but because YOU don't KNOW KENPO than YOU  also don't understand for if you did kenpo, than you would know what i'm talking about,  :asian: 





> open your eyes,and if you still don't see, than try your mine


----------



## D.Cobb (May 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *NO!  When I train BJJ I do not poke eyes or grab testicles.  I don't kick or punch either.   In return, they don't drop me on my head, don't break my arm, don't choke me to the point of unconsciousness and don't break my neck.
> 
> I am not arguing that BJJ is a better style.  I am only arguing that the training method is more realistic because all techniques are practiced against a resisting partner instead of a cooperating one and that the advanced ranking is more skill based due to BJJ's competitive focus. *




Whilst you make some valid points, it has been my experience that these guys like to start *on the ground.* 

My question is, how would they get you there, if your Kenpo is any good?

When I learnt American Kenpo, I was taught, "*Going to ground is not an option.* "

Obviously, you may end up there, but BJJ teaches you how to stay there. Also as far as they are concerned, it is impossible to defend against multiple attackers. If you don't think this is true, then check out some Black Belt mags from the early '90s. One of the Gracies used to write a column for the mag, and it was almost his catch cry.

BJJ is a sport system. You will find some that can make it work as a combat art, but the same can be said for TKD.

--Dave

:asian:


----------



## lonekimono (May 28, 2003)

Way to go dave :asian:


----------



## webpage20022003 (May 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by lonekimono _
> *YOU don't KNOW KENPO than YOU  also don't understand for if you did kenpo, than you would know what i'm talking about,  :asian: *



Huh? I think that Kempo is a KICK *** art. Learning it and loving it.

So far, i only have 1 art: KEMPO

i don't know kenpo????? if i don't know kenpo, neither do you. Let put it that way. It's between you and me.


----------



## webpage20022003 (May 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by D.Cobb _
> *Whilst you make some valid points, it has been my experience that these guys like to start on the ground.
> 
> My question is, how would they get you there, if your Kenpo is any good?
> ...



i watch WFC a few times and have to say it is stupid by looking at the way they fight. You see Kempo , Karate GUYS end up using BJJ in WFC. They try to do 1 thing: take another guy down on the ground.

if you train Kempo and declare that you are a kempo guy, why do you need to use BJJ to win the match?? Can you just use your KEMPO or karate to win your match ???

have to agree with what you said here. You can't do multiple attacks on the ground 

if your kempo is any good??? it is an excellence question. 

If it works, why learn another art?
that's my 2 cents


----------



## lonekimono (May 28, 2003)

Look webpage  it seem's like you have some problem's and as far as i not knowing kempo/kenpo  you do the math,
and as this is between you and i??  i don't have time for this .:asian:



ps  maybe if you would use your real name than maybe i would talk more.


----------



## Michael Billings (May 28, 2003)

I know this will sound somewhat harsh, and I am inviting getting slammed, but hey, I am getting tired of some of the comments that keep coming out of webpage20022003.  Condescending remarks, assumptions regarding abilities, and a superior attitude, mixed with a lot of "oh yeah? Prove it" in almost every post.  OK for a while, but it is getting old.

Incendiary or judgmental remarks seem very common for "webpage20022003", along with a somewhat immature perspective regarding other Arts.  I support his perspective or the questions he raises ... I have the answers for me and my students and am willing to look outside my comfort zone, as are a lot of us, even if we don't agree with his sweeping judgmental statements.  

He on the other hand does not appear to be looking for a dialogue, but rather a disagreement.  May I refer you to *KenpoNet*, an equally good forum with lots of Seniors in Kenpo, who like a good disagreement, so long as it leads somewhere.  


Left over Right


----------



## XtremeJ_AKKI (May 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by webpage20022003 _
> *i don't know kenpo????? if i don't know kenpo, neither do you. Let put it that way. It's between you and me. *



 I'm just curious ( actually been curious about this for over a week now ), just how old are you, and how long have you been active in the martial arts?


----------



## XtremeJ_AKKI (May 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *I know this will sound somewhat harsh, and I am inviting getting slammed, but hey, I am getting tired of some of the comments that keep coming out of webpage20022003.  Condescending remarks, assumptions regarding abilities, and a superior attitude, mixed with a lot of "oh yeah? Prove it" in almost every post.  OK for a while, but it is getting old.
> 
> Incendiary or judgmental remarks seem very common for "webpage20022003", along with a somewhat immature perspective regarding other Arts.  I support his perspective or the questions he raises ... I have the answers for me and my students and am willing to look outside my comfort zone, as are a lot of us, even if we don't agree with his sweeping judgmental statements.  *



 I was waiting for someone to say it. Thank you Mr. Billings for stepping up to the plate ( cause I was tired of doing it :rofl: ).


----------



## lonekimono (May 28, 2003)

Hey Mike thank you, this person won't PUT his name in here, but he will PUT people down .
you know there are alot of other things we can talk about other than giving him the time of day.

oh one more thing ,,webpage if you are near the state of NEW JERSEY than please be my guess stop by my school and i will let you jump in the BEGINNER CLASS that's white to yellow, and don't worry about paying just you stopping by is payment.


  ps have a good day,,,oh Mike give me a call at the school
  856-931-0030


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka (May 28, 2003)

I started this thread to question Kenpo's ranking system, to question our ideal of perfection, and to question our excessive reverence of our own dogma.  

I never wanted this to degenerate into the bashing of any individual's martial competence or achievement.  We may not like everyone else's attitude or communication style, but let's try to exercise the self-discipline we have learned through our art and keep the discussion centered on the positive ideas generated by this discussion thread.  Thank you.


----------



## webpage20022003 (May 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *
> I am getting tired of some of the comments that keep coming out of webpage20022003.  Condescending remarks, assumptions regarding abilities, and a superior attitude, mixed with a lot of "oh yeah? Prove it" in almost every post.  OK for a while, but it is getting old.
> *



I need to remind you about this. The statement , itself, doesn't have a feeling and only you , human being, have feeling.

We have ONLY 2 choices when looking at other opinions: REPLY or not REPLY at all. Why do you begin to have third choice? getting pissed.???????

You can say whatever you want about my statement because everybody has the same freedom. FREEDOM OF SPEECH.

As far as i see, you haven't show me any of my past statements support your claim *bad attitude and bad assumption*. Why don't you begin to show me your support statement??? 

Saying without proofs is MEANINGLESS.

I have learned from my instructor that we have to learn to use our head more than our techniques because you don't win in a battle by  using techniques.




> *
> Incendiary or judgmental remarks seem very common for "webpage20022003", along with a somewhat immature perspective regarding other Arts.  I support his perspective or the questions he raises ... I have the answers for me and my students and am willing to look outside my comfort zone, as are a lot of us, even if we don't agree with his sweeping judgmental statements.
> *



you brought up "immature" thing in the past and Just for my curiosity , What is your definition of "immature" and "assumption"?

when you give me your definition, i will be able to respond and we willl finish *immature* thing one for ALL  here.

Remember: it is OK to argue but it is NOT OK to fight




> *
> He on the other hand does not appear to be looking for a dialogue, but rather a disagreement.  May I refer you to KenpoNet, an equally good forum with lots of Seniors in Kenpo, who like a good disagreement, so long as it leads somewhere.
> Left over Right *



what is the point of living when you live in a society where everybody agrees in everything?

since we agree and accept what other say, why bother to have a forum to discuss a variety of issues????

disagreement is not actually a bad thing at ALL. It develops our intellectual and help other understand ourselve and issues we discuss BETTER

those WHO don't like disagreement will always DO and ACCEPT what other say. People also don't like disagreement because they CAN'T simply argue. 

In another word, they CAN'T think something to counter other.

let me repeat my above sentence: it is OK to argue but it is NOT OK to fight.


----------



## webpage20022003 (May 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by XtremeJ_AKKI _
> *I'm just curious ( actually been curious about this for over a week now ), just how old are you, and how long have you been active in the martial arts? *



please tell me why you would like to know such thing......?


----------



## webpage20022003 (May 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by lonekimono _
> *Hey Mike thank you, this person won't PUT his name in here, but he will PUT people down .
> you know there are alot of other things we can talk about other than giving him the time of day.
> 
> ...



thank you for your offering and i don't live in Jersey. To be friendly with everybody here ,specially you, why don't YOU take this generous offer and give it to one of YOUR white belt student?

You don't mention  with your student about me.  I enjoy being myself. Anonymous is simply the BEST.


----------



## XtremeJ_AKKI (May 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by webpage20022003 _
> *please tell me why you would like to know such thing......? *



 I already did, I'm curious.

 *waiting for you to tell me that it's unimportant*


----------



## webpage20022003 (May 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by XtremeJ_AKKI _
> *
> *waiting for you to tell me that it's unimportant* *


  :asian:


----------



## XtremeJ_AKKI (May 28, 2003)

From your usage of grammar, as well as your responses ( though I won't go into terms to describe some of them ), I can assume that either you're not that advanced in age ( read between the lines ), or you haven't been in the arts too long, or perhaps both.

 Then again, I could be wrong, but at this point, it's a pretty safe bet. 

 Oh, and as to your comment on anonymous posting being the way to go.....sure, it's great, for cowards and those who don't want to hold any accountability for their words. 

 I saw you ask someone on another post, what makes their opinion better than yours? I'd venture to say, simply a name. 

 Have a nice day.


----------



## webpage20022003 (May 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by XtremeJ_AKKI _
> *From your usage of grammar, as well as your responses ( though I won't go into terms to describe some of them ), I can assume that either you're not that advanced in age ( read between the lines ), or you haven't been in the arts too long, or perhaps both.
> 
> Then again, I could be wrong, but at this point, it's a pretty safe bet.
> *



what else would you like to discuss with me beside my grammar and responses ?

i am always responsible for my words. If you have any problem with that, we will discuss about it here ok?

you are always WRONG and will BE WRONG in every ASPECT of life.

  how long  in the art is too long? 



> *
> Oh, and as to your comment on anonymous posting being the way to go.....sure, it's great, for cowards and those who don't want to hold any accountability for their words.
> *



coward? wow....man. Just look all the posts here, you respond to my comment and I reply you back.

Putting my name is my choice NOT yours.

You can put your name and rank all you WANT. I don't really care. Why?

there is a BIG different between me AND YOU and that is I learn martial art because I want to defend myself NOT because I want to TELL everybody including YOU my name and rank.

One more point, trust me this worth taken.

when you are the STREET, your NAME and RANK will not SAVE you



> *
> I saw you ask someone on another post, what makes their opinion better than yours? I'd venture to say, simply a name.
> 
> Have a nice day.  *



let me put this way. Whatever education you are having is really no good  why?

well, you can't and will never be better than other because of the name.

i always have a nice day and will continue to do so.


----------



## lonekimono (May 28, 2003)

hey webpage no one cares who the hell you are but you should know the rules in here about the name thing??  and this is the last thing i'm saying  about you,  GROW UP AND SHUT UP
and i never get mad but you are a waste of time .:asian:


----------



## webpage20022003 (May 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by lonekimono _
> *hey webpage no one cares who the hell you are but you should know the rules in here about the name thing??  and this is the last thing i'm saying  about you,  GROW UP AND SHUT UP
> and i never get mad but you are a waste of time .:asian: *



you don't understand, do you ?

1-people here have rule but this rule doesn't apply nationwide, does it? 

I mean that there is no LAWS

putting my name and rank is my choice. NOT yours. 

Why you and other people are concern about my name and rank?

feel insecure???? 

2-i don't care about your title *founder* of american chinese kenpo either. 

i know 1 thing. You put a word *chinese* between american and kenpo so that you can be called *founder*

why don't you try to put *founder* on american kenpo and see what happen.?????

you learned American Kenpo, why don't you just say that you are teaching American Kenpo and drop your *chinese* and *founder* here.

and how can you claim that you are a *founder* of american chinese kenpo while you are teaching American kenpo?

you are *founder* because you change the name or ad 1 or 2 of your own moves ???


why do you put Sr Ed Parker on your front page when doing different things???? it is really insulting

i just don't know what you did *find* in american kenpo ??? everybody here certains wants to find out.

with all the respects, it is really a JOKE for kenpo community.

Why don't you SHUT UP and LISTEN to me and hide in caves or something?

you should get MAD and be SHUTTED UP because the TRUTH is hurt


----------



## XtremeJ_AKKI (May 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by webpage20022003 _
> *you are always WRONG and will BE WRONG in every ASPECT of life. *



 If you say so, Buckwheat. :rofl:


----------



## webpage20022003 (May 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by XtremeJ_AKKI _
> *If you say so, Buckwheat. :rofl: *



Please think about what i said. Everybody cares about you. You should know that

so i am Buckwheat, what are you? Bruce Lee??


----------



## lonekimono (May 28, 2003)

HEY  webpage we have a word for guys like you in New Jersey

      JERKOFF    THATS ABOUT IT


----------



## webpage20022003 (May 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by lonekimono _
> *HEY  webpage we have a word for guys like you in New Jersey
> 
> JERKOFF    THATS ABOUT IT  *



you don't know how to count heh?

You *Jerk* *off* are actually 2 words not 1.

Know how to count??? 1,2,10???? way to go *founder*

it is certainlly  better than your integrity and decency and honesty for being *FAKE* *founder* ****

******* Jersey *founder*

i hope you will get BUSTED in the future for all lies you made about being *founder* of NOTHING


----------



## Bob Hubbard (May 29, 2003)

Folks... Flamewars aren't welcome here.  Follow our board rules or take it to some site that likes that sort of thing.


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka (May 29, 2003)

Kaith:  Thank you for refereeing here.  Thank you for suspending the most flagrant flamer here.

All:  I hope now that we can return to our civil discussion of what is important in ranking and in Kenpo effectiveness, and have a constructive discussion to help strengthen Kenpo for the future.


----------



## lonekimono (May 29, 2003)

OK at lease you and i can talk and not call each other names,
i don't know what his/her reason was to say the things he did about me? my life is an open book.
anyway you want to laugh i forgot what we were talking about (lol)


> if you run down the hill,how fast will you get to the bottom??


 :asian:


----------



## Seig (May 29, 2003)

Back to the whole rank issue, I think Mr. Parker defined it well enough.  Some traditions should be left alone and some should be ignored.  I feel that by going past his established rank structure we are ignoring one of the traditions that he put in place, that would in turn have the effect of destroying our credibility in the over all martial arts community.  It would also, IMO, undermine our system.  This is a very touchy issue for some.  I admit, I am one of those.


----------



## lonekimono (May 29, 2003)

But you make it work,and you got no problem from me


----------



## lonekimono (May 29, 2003)

You know that did not come out right ,what i meant to say is that i like what you said and you have a way with word's that i like.

so like they say    "YOU THE MAN":asian: :asian: :asian:


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka (May 29, 2003)

Seig:  Thank you for reviving this thread after its recent trashing.

If we limit our senior to 10th Dan as Mr. Parker would have wished, then what should the criteria be for promoting them?  

A 10th Dan could be for a most senior leader preserving the faith.  However, I don't personally feel that just preserving the status quo should warrant a 10th Dan.  I would like to see 10th Dan awarded to those who not only preserve the faith, but move the art forward into the 21st century incorporating new ideas, techniques, innovations, and manuevers.   That 10th Dan would then have created a version of the faith worthy of preserving.

That begs the question of how and when do you determine if an innovation is worthy.  I suggest that an innovation is worthy of preserving if it has the same impact on the martial art as Mr. Parker's innovations.  How and when would you know that that has happened?  Probably not for 10 or 20 years after the innovation was widely adopted would you be able to measure its significance.

This further begs the question of whether or not the new innovations are an enhancement to the current system or the schism into a new one.  That could be measured by adoption rate.  None of this is easily measureable.  But the award of a 10th Dan should not be easy either.

Just thinking out loud and trying to stir up some discussion.


----------



## Sigung86 (May 29, 2003)

OFK...

I agree totally, unfortunately, the cat is out of the bag.  As soon as two or more gathered in one persons name, took a vote, we had a plethora of 10th Dans.  

I think that the rank has been cheapened to the point that it is irrelevant.  It's all organizational and Administrative ranking now.  Doesn't really mean much since there were not any standards to rank them by, other than a bunch of supporters saying Yes.

I don't honestly believe 11th, 12th, 13th Degree Black Belts will solve any problems.  It's like inflation... You just print more money, but it doesn't solve the basic issues.


----------



## Touch Of Death (May 30, 2003)

I think if people would stop promoting eight year olds to black belt we wouldn't have this problem.


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka (May 30, 2003)

I agree, promoting 8 year olds to Black Belt is a crying shame.  It really degrades an art.  Since our founding in 1965, our school only promoted one 16 year old to Black Belt.  He was phenomenal, mature, and his older brother was a Black Belt at our school.  Everyone else had to be at least 18.

Just think how bad this problem would be if we had 8 year old Black Belts -- we'd have 21 year old 10th Dans!


----------



## Randy Strausbaugh (May 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *Just think how bad this problem would be if we had 8 year old Black Belts -- we'd have 21 year old 10th Dans! *


Mmmmmm. Irony:wink: 

Trying to avoid life's potholes,
Randy Strausbaugh


----------



## Seig (May 30, 2003)

Another issue that seems to be touched on but largely overlooked is that the way Mr. Parker laid out the black belt rankings, it would take at least 30 years active in the art to acheive 10th Degree.  I am not saying that there are not those currently wearing it that have that amount of time in.  There are certainly those without the time though.  It seems to me that one of the main requisites that Mr. Parker laid out in addition to physical and mental mastery of the art was also contributions and propogation of the art.  That opens the argument that a lot of the people wearing the art are in fact propogating to a large degree, but are they really contributing to it?  Let's look at some examples of what I mean by contributing.  Who created what forms?  Who created what techniques?  Who created what sets?  Those are definitive contributions to the art.  They were based on the Kenpo principles and logic and enhanced the art.  They were developped, refined, accepted and then added to the curriculum.  How many people have actually done these things?  I think things like this go a lot farther to legitimizing a 10th Degree than simply the, " I was there and you weren't" arguments that seem to be the defensive posture that some take.


----------



## Kenpomachine (May 31, 2003)

I think there are some people out there that are trying to evolve EPAK to continue to be effective. Some of them are exploring the knife worls, some others are taking it to a new level... 

And it should be easier if there was no stripes in a belt unless for ceremonies. Down in the mat, you are just as good as your technique/knowledge shows.

Ed Parker changed so many things in kenpo from the beginning, thaat for many people in the 60s it would be hard to recognized kenpo today. so why all the fuss about Ed Parker said this and that, and wanted this to be exactly this way? He changed his mind as more knowledge and insight was gained. 

Kenpo is not perfect, and thus has room to improvements.


----------



## XtremeJ_AKKI (May 31, 2003)

Can we get back to training now?


----------



## lonekimono (May 31, 2003)

HE SAID /SHE SAID,, ALL I KNOW IS THAT I MYSELF HAVE BEEN DOING KENPO SINCE 1965 AND I WAS THERE THEN AND I'M STILL HERE, AND I WAS THERE WHEN MR PARKER WAS LAID TO REST.
AND AFTER THAT ALL HELL BROKE LOSE,LET'S NOT GO THERE
BECAUSE THERE WAS ALOT OF SH$#  THAT WENT DOWN THAT I DON'T AGREE WITH AND I KNOW THERE ARE ALOT OF PEOPLE WHO KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT.
BUT LOOK PEOPLE WE ARE STILL HERE, LET'S MOVE FORWARD
ABOUT THE RANK THING, I DON'T CARE WHO WEARS WHAT BECAUSE THERE WILL BE A TIME WHEN THAT PERSON WILL HAVE TO PUT UP OR SHUT UP
AND TO GIVE A YOUNG PERSON A BLACKBELT( I MEAN 8) NOT IN MY SCHOOL, BUT BECAUSE SOME OTHER PERSON WILL DO THAT 
SO WHAT.  "KNOW WHAT YOU KNOW KNOW WHY IT'S SO"

I LEAVE IT AT THAT:asian: :asian: :asian:


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka (May 31, 2003)

Lone Kimono:  I think your caps-lock key is busted.

Anyway,  I totally agree with you that the whole advanced rank thing is nonsense and that people need to put up or shut up.  That is one of the points I have been trying to make with this thread.  

And yes.  an 8 year old Black Belt is a totally ridiculous concept.


----------



## lonekimono (May 31, 2003)

i;m sorry about the caps    i was to busy to notice, and thank you.
:asian:


----------



## Doc (Jun 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *Everyone may want to review the KenpoNet thread on this topic before replying.
> 
> It can be very tongue-in-cheek on some level, while other's treat it with great seriousness.
> ...


A couple of things. I posted under Mr. Billings quote because I agree with his assessment.

First at the least, leave it alone but also recognize it for what it is. Rank doesn't represent knowledge or skill. And the rank of 10th as far as I am concerned is an "honorary" rank necessitated by position and was created for it's commercial applications before Ed Parker formed an organization. When you have large amounts of students you have to promote for one reason or another, sooner or later you're going to be a 10th. 

Even in the traditional arts the numerical designations are not as important as the attendant titles. In these groups the person with the most experience is looked upon as the senior regardless of numerical ranking. Here younger ranking black belts yield to the older more experienced individuals. It would not be unusual for the individual called "sensei" to be a lower numerical rank than some he might teach. Many "masters" ignored rank for various reasons. Small intimate groups do not require rank because everyone knows everyone else and their position within the group. Everyone knows who the teacher is, so he doesn't "need" to be a 10th or the "grandmaster." It is a given.

Parker didn't personally care about rank either, nor did he ever refer to himself as any type of "master," grand or otherwise. But he also knew once you start down that road of large organizations and rewarding many many students with rank for various reasons, it's the obvious results. Parker himself never wore rank or stripes until he was 7th, and that was at the urgings of students who of course wanted to wear their rank. He "pushed" them up and they in turn "pushed" him up by necessesity. Large commercial organizations are obligated by circumstancial necessity. Remember it was Parker himself in reference to his own students who said, "Just because the red shows does't mean that you know." There are many who have been around a long time who don't necessarily know more than some of the more recent students.

From my perspective people like Mr. Billings and Mr. Conatser are not even close to being "seniors," but it is clear to me these men are intelligent, insightful, and probably could run rings around some really high ranking people above them and not even wrinkle their brow.

Parker himself dropped the "dan" designations in the sixties and was moving toward the no belt Chinese model from his interaction and study with Chinese Masters, but realized the belt ranks had a commercial application that could not be denied, and switched to "degrees" for his American commercial system.

He purposely moved away from those designations because he knew their meanings should be diffrent in an "Americanized" structure. Even one of his original Chinese teachers had a colored sash system in place because his school was open to the public, and others followed as well in commercial gung fu schools like the created American Kenpo sister San Soo. So the die was cast and the results was a forseeable circumstance.

In our curriculum, all numerical ranks are considered "honorary and/or emeritus." They are there for longevity, service, or position as necessary but have no direct relationship to the curriculum or its teaching. No one regardless of their numerical rank may numerically promote anyone for any reason.

What is important is the certifications issued with "titles" that have legitimate sanctioned and recognized meanings. Than if a person wants to teach they must have an additional "teaching credential" for specific parts of the curriculum over and above their certificated title. I have black belts ranks with no titles and who are not certified to teach. When you go to school and get a degree, all that means is you passed the requirements. It doesn't mean you can teach and it doesn't impart any title beyond the appropriate "graduate." I have people who only wanted to take the classes and who were not interested in anything else.

I do not ever use the title of "Grandmaster" and it bothers me to be referred to as such. Let me be clear, I hate it. Ed Parker IS the Grandmaster. If you claim to do American Kenpo, you should find another title. We use academic titles and that uses the term "Master of ...." But we move from there to basically "professor, senior professor, to senior master professor at 9th. There are no higher titles. The 10th rank is there but I do not use or wear it.

Now to address the Lee question. Lee learned from Parker, not the other way around. Parker was already studying longer with legitmate Chinese Masters than Bruce Lee had. Bruce studied about 4 years and developed his rep as a "fighter" as a young teenager on the streets in Hong Kong. Than he began teaching at 19 when he went to college in Washington State. When he did his famous demo at the IKC, he was a 24 year old kid who was showing common Chinese Concepts that wowed the mostly Japanese traditionalists. Parker recognized "talent" not knowledge. Wally Jay said the same thing in print. (Paraphrasing),"Very talented kid, but he didn't really know that much." Anyone with the opportunity to see that footage would not be impressed today. I used to show it to people when it was in my possesion, and it was universally seen as "boring."

In fact Parker's student Inosanto, taught Lee much of his weapons and gave him insight into the Philipino Arts that he took to the screen. Danny was more knowledgeable than Bruce, but Bruce's group was very small, non-commercial and created training and study possibilities that were not possible in the direction Parker was moving toward.

A simple reminder that what Parker taught in his commercial schools is not what he himself did, and that is why some have had difficulty replicating his results. A look at the old video and film makes that obvious. Parker used pak-sao, lap-sao, chi-sao, energy drains, wipes, misalignments, and pressure point nerve cavities like crazy ....  and nobody seem to notice. And none of those things are mentioned anywhere after his first 2 books. He simply stopped talking about it because it didn't fit his commercial vision.


----------



## rmcrobertson (Jun 2, 2003)

Sounds fair to me...and just to keep the discussion going, are those who want to raise Mr. Parker's rank really talking about elevating him (and why do that?) or about elevating themselves? I mean this, of course, in the sense that Gene Wilder uses in "Young Frankenstein," when he says, "Elevate me."

Thanks.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Jun 3, 2003)

My amp goes to 11, when I need that extra umph.


----------



## twinkletoes (Jun 3, 2003)

I think OKF has touched upon a scary but related concept that we haven't directly referenced yet. 

Ed Parker intended for Kenpo to keep developing as an art.  

This makes for some difficulties.  The other people who come immediately to mind that wanted the same for their arts are Bruce Lee and Remy Presas.  Let's look at their cases:

Bruce Lee's followers are now generally grouped into Original JKD (teaching to kick as Bruce kicked and move as Bruce moved) and JKD Concepts (use his ideas of experimentation and experience to draw one's own conclusions).  The OJKD guys are criticized for stagnancy, while they criticize the JKDC guys for inconsistency.  It's all crazy.  

Remy Presas told us repeatedly at camps in the years immediately preceding has passing that Modern Arnis was a "dynamic" art and curriculum, which in his mind meant that it should not stop developing at any time.  He appointed 7 Masters to take the helm, and so far, 6 are still together (though several other organizations have emerged).  They have pinned down a curriculum that expresses everything Prof. Presas was teaching in his last few years, but now the question will be "What next?"

So how does all this come to bear for the Kenpoka out there?  Well, I think the question is, when you have been a 10th Dan for longer than Mr. Parker was (while alive, of course), what will you be "supposed to think" about kenpo?  What will be the next logical ideas for the course of kenpo?  What new developments will be next?  Certainly Mr. Parker would have kept developing Kenpo, filling in gaps, updating training methods, introducing new ideas.  When you claim to be the rank that he was, that's your job now.  So what is supposed to come next?

~TT


----------

