# Why WT/WC does NOT work in the RING!



## jeff_hasbrouck (Dec 2, 2013)

Ok folks, I haven't seen this topic broached in the fashion that I'm about to. But I implore you to listen to this.

Rule #1 of fighting in the ring: There ARE rules-

So we are used to being able to strike with whatever works. Punches, kicks, palms, elbows, shoulder etc. and we are striking at VULNERABLE targets ie. Soft tissue/weak points.

That is illegal in the ring. You cant chop someone in the throat. You cant strike the back of the head. You can't straight kick somebody's knee. You can't, You can't, You CAN'T!

WT/WC wasn't founded or developed on principals using gloves, or in a ring. It was meant for the street; Striking any viable target with any tool (technique) that worked.

Now in MMA we limited not only in our tools and targets, but confined in a set space. And that set space favors people with strong kicks and quick take-downs. So stop fooling yourself into thinking you can take a wrestler when you've never trained against one.

When I was in San Antonio we had an "Anti-Grappling" (lol) seminar and I DECIMATED everyone with only 2 wrestling techniques. A single and double leg take-down. I took punches to the head, knees to the face, ribs and kicks to my legs, yet I still succeeded (all but one time) in taking down my opponent.

We as chunners are NOT prepared to deal with these kind of attacks; and if you think you are: YOU'RE WRONG.

You need to either find a BJJ person or wrestler to learn HOW to defend said techniques, because honestly you won't be able to use the WT solution. And trust me, I've tried.

In order to stop a double leg take-down; You can't use the YGKYM, it just doesn't work. You have to bend the rules in order to restore order.

I don't know where guy's get off starting off in the YGKYM in the ring (YGKYM is meant for stability and structure; Not mobility). It not only looks ridiculous; But it is as ineffective as shooting a BB gun at an elephant. Too many chunners think that the YGKYM is the end all be all of stances. It's not. Ya'll forget that once you understand the principals you must absolve them and utilize the principals and theories and forget about using the proper structure ALL the time. Because again: it doesn't always work.

A good example is Chi-sau sections and basic reactions... We learn all these tactile reactions for what reasons? To learn the sections? Forms? HELL NO. We learn them in sections to LEARN them more efficiently and effectively so it takes less time. 

We learn the sections so that one day we can string them together without thinking about it, creating our anti-synaptic reflexs into LAT-SAU or "Free handed fighting techniques"! So the point of this is to fight right? Then why are we standing there like a pinche burro (F-in donkey) when someone bum rushes us in a ring? Because we are being a MECHANICAL fighter instead of an INTELLIGENT fighter.

Bruce Lee goes into this quite in depth in his "Hack away the un-essential" blah, blah, blah... Well he's right. We need to use what is usable and discard what is not. I don't care if "MY SIFU SAID" blah blah, if it doesn't work: It DOESN'T work.

So folks when we step into a fight, or the ring; Don't let yourself be limited by the system. USE the system to YOUR benefit. That is what its all about after. Defending yourself. Not up-holding some sense of tradition that doesn't work...

I hope ya'll found this informative and kinda jolted you out of some of your bad habits. 


All the best!

Jeff


----------



## wtxs (Dec 3, 2013)

Well said Jeff.  Problem is there are lots of McDojo and Sifu want-a-be's out there ... don't understand the real meaning of *Martial Art* or its *primary purpose*.


----------



## jeff_hasbrouck (Dec 3, 2013)

wtxs said:


> Well said Jeff.  Problem is there are lots of McDojo and Sifu want-a-be's out there ... don't understand the real meaning of *Martial Art* or its *primary purpose*.



Very true sir! I just keep seeing these youtube videos popping up and I just wanted to educate the next generation. It's honestly getting outta hand. 

I think those Wannabe's and whatnot keep telling their students their invincible. Because the incredulous look I see on the WT/WC fighter everytime makes me facepalm. lol.

Anyways, you have a good one bubba!

Jeff


----------



## geezer (Dec 5, 2013)

Jeff, can you imagine any kind of open style rule set for sport  competition in which WC could effectively compete?


----------



## James Kovacich (Dec 5, 2013)

UFC1

Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## jeff_hasbrouck (Dec 5, 2013)

geezer said:


> Jeff, can you imagine any kind of open style rule set for sport  competition in which WC could effectively compete?



Only in a no-holds-barred scenario. If there are rules then it wont work.

Provided of course the person was well versed in ground-fighting and was a good anti-kicker and anti-grappler.

WT/WC simply doesn't provide the necessary tools to deal with grapplers.

Examples of are like the defense against a "double leg take-down"... First off WT/WC instructors in "general" not "all" don't have any concept of how to execute this movement, so they don't know how to defend it.

The prescribed method for defense against a double leg or waist take-down is punch as the opponent comes in. If that fails, then we attack the head and neck (if he slips our guard... which he will 9 times out of 10). If that fails we get our *** kicked lol.

The CORRECT way to defend a double leg is to "sprawl" which is to throw your legs out behind you and use your hips to push your opponent to the ground while your arms control his head because "where the head goes the body will follow".

Just because it isn't a WT/WC technique does not mean it shouldn't be included in our arsenal. And when some "Sifu" says oh its not wing tsun it won't work makes my respect level go down 100%.

When I was teaching I gave the solution to the problem no matter what style it came from. 

See a GOOD WT/WC man/woman doesn't need to cling to the structure of WT/WC to make it work for them. The most important part of the WT system is the theories and principals. Execution of the techniques is up to you.

Hope I answered your question and then some...

All the best,

Jeff


----------



## yak sao (Dec 5, 2013)

jeff_hasbrouck said:


> The CORRECT way to defend a double leg is to "sprawl" which is to throw your legs out behind you and use your hips to push your opponent to the ground while your arms control his head because "where the head goes the body will follow".
> 
> Just because it isn't a WT/WC technique does not mean it shouldn't be included in our arsenal.



I was taught that we are not able to control what lies beyond our arms necessarily, but we can control from our own arms back to our body, whether it be using bong sau with a stance turn or using wu sau to push ourselves away from an incoming attack, ie. the response to the initial elbow attack in 4th section of chi sau.

WT, as you would probably agree, is not a collection of techniques, but a study in movement and proper body mechanics.

The sprawl is using your arms to push yourself away from your opponent. This is yielding. We are in essence, maintaining our distance while keeping our structure from collapsing. 
I would argue that while this might not be an official WT "technique", the principle of yielding is very much WT and so is a valid response.


----------



## geezer (Dec 6, 2013)

yak sao said:


> WT, as you would probably agree, is not a collection of techniques, but a study in movement and proper body mechanics.
> 
> The sprawl is using your arms to push yourself away from your opponent. This is yielding. We are in essence, maintaining our distance while keeping our structure from collapsing.
> I would argue that while this might not be an official WT "technique", the principle of yielding is very much WT and so is a valid response.



Yak, you and I seem to have a different idea of what a sprawl is. To me a sprawl is what you do when somebody shoots in deep and is inside your arm and elbow range... but you kick your legs and hips back, protecting your legs and "base", and dropping the weight of your chest on them forcing them down to the ground under you. Then, as Jeff said, you control the head, use a cross-face for example, and often work your way around behind him to gain control. Basically, I see it as both defensive and offensive.   

I'm pressed for time, ...so here's the first "sprawl" clip i found on Youtube. It's good enough....






Either way, I also consider the sprawl good WT/VT. My old sifu, LT, didn't teach it, but then he didn't know wrestling. But look at it like this, when somebody gets inside your punch, you elbow him. If he yanks you in and you can't punch or elbow him you give him a shoulder punch like in the 2nd section of WT Chi-Sau. And if he gets in and under you, why not sprawl and drop your body on him? 

It's efficient, it's consistent with WT/VT principles, and it works. That's enough for me.


----------



## geezer (Dec 6, 2013)

Ah, finally a free moment. So I went back and took another look at that sprawl clip I posted above. You may think I'm nuts, but I saw a lot in there that could pass as WC/WT: gum-sau, lan-sau, tan-sau, forward pressure and borrowing the force. But if you don't agree, no worries. Heck, _I see WC/WT everywhere!_


----------



## VT_Vectis (Dec 6, 2013)

Either way, I also consider the sprawl good WT/VT. My old sifu, LT, didn't teach it, but then he didn't know wrestling. But look at it like this, when somebody gets inside your punch, you elbow him. If he yanks you in and you can't punch or elbow him you give him a shoulder punch like in the 2nd section of WT Chi-Sau. And if he gets in and under you, why not sprawl and drop your body on him? 

It's efficient, it's consistent with WT/VT principles, and it works. That's enough for me.[/QUOTE]

Never forget the old "Glasgow Kiss". It may not be for the ring but in the street we should never be too proud to headbutt if we're in to close for anything else. And if there are no effective targets for the headbutt then biting is always an option.


----------



## yak sao (Dec 6, 2013)

geezer said:


> Yak, you and I seem to have a different idea of what a sprawl is.
> 
> It's efficient, it's consistent with WT/VT principles, and it works. That's enough for me.



Actually, I think we are doing the same thing, I just explained it poorly. 
Everything you can do with your arms can, for the most part, be expressed with your body...in this case it would be jum sau, but now we are not just sinking our arm, we are dropping our whole body down on him through our arms.

Like you, I see WT everywhere.


----------



## jeff_hasbrouck (Dec 7, 2013)

Im just so glad this thread is getting such awesome comments posted... You guys fricken ROCK.

And that is a GREAT sprawl vid!


----------



## Vajramusti (Dec 7, 2013)

Wing chun can work in the ring and it has in cases that I know of. Depends on the individual 
wing chun person and whether they think that going into the ring is important to them.


----------



## wingchun100 (Dec 12, 2013)

yak sao said:


> I was taught that we are not able to control what lies beyond our arms necessarily, but we can control from our own arms back to our body, whether it be using bong sau with a stance turn or using wu sau to push ourselves away from an incoming attack, ie. the response to the initial elbow attack in 4th section of chi sau.
> 
> WT, as you would probably agree, is not a collection of techniques, but a study in movement and proper body mechanics.
> 
> ...



I agree completely. Wing chun isn't frozen in a certain series of techniques; we are laerning PRINCIPLES and THEORIES. 

Having said that, this is one gripe I have with martial arts ever since these UFC type tournaments have become popular: why is it people always point out the flaws that striking styles have, but never the flaws in their grappling systems? In any given style, your strengths will ALSO be your weaknesses because you practice those things to the exclusion of everything else.

As for grappling, here is the obvious one: in the ring against one opponent, you are golden. But what if a guy and his three buddies are after you during a bar fight?


----------



## yak sao (Dec 12, 2013)

wingchun100 said:


> As for grappling, here is the obvious one: in the ring against one opponent, you are golden. But what if a guy and his three buddies are after you during a bar fight?



Not to mention that you may be on asphalt or concrete, or the broken glass, gravel, dog crap and God knows what else you may be rolling around in.


----------



## jeff_hasbrouck (Dec 14, 2013)

@WingChun100,

The reason WT/WC gets blasted so much is because we RARELY win in the ring. Shawn Obasi has a few wins under his belt. But all the best fighters are people who practice a ground fighting system as well as a stand up system. And some WT/WC (Leung Ting for sure) has TRIED to incorporate ground-fighting into their system and have failed miserably. When I quit the Leung Ting system I was in the technician ranks of the LTWT system. And I can tell you that their stuff doesn't work.

The thing is with no pointing out flaws of "Grappling systems" is because their aren't many if at all. Yes it hurts to go to the ground. But you WIN more if you are an experienced grappler. I had a friend in highschool who couldn't fight to save his life... But he was a 2 time state champion (wrestler) and he whipped the livin **** outta a kid who claimed to be a golden glove boxer by taken him to the ground (on concrete).

I don't think ya'll realize that going to the ground in a 1on1 fight isn't really that bad of an idea. The bad idea is being SCARED of doing whatever you have to do to win the fight... Which includes going to the ground.

See most WT/WC people are brainwashed into thinking that going to the ground is a bad thing. Well let me ask you this (rhetorical) how many of your sifu's have been in a fight where it went to the ground... Or been in a fight at all? The answer is not a lot. Martial artists are taught to de-escalate confrontation.

Two reasons  people do fight... Rough neighborhood or big mouth... Personally my big mouth got my *** whipped a lot as a kid. And I learned fast that you have to do any/everthing you can to win. Whether it fits within your style or not. There is no honor in getting your *** kicked... Only walking away before the fight begins. After it starts... IT'S ON. There are NO rules and you have to SURVIVE.

It's not a "mistake" to go to the ground. Its an advantage for people who are versed in grappling. I garuntee 90% of the WT/WC people I could smash (any level any branch) just by taking to the ground because that is out of their comfort/skill zone.

I've learned all the biu-tze chi-sau and most of all the dummy chi-sau so I pretty much know all the stuff that WT will throw with your body. And it is NOT enough to stop a versed grappler.

Until we start incorporating rear-naked, triangle, arm-bar etc. defenses into our every day classes we will NEVER be equipped to deal with the grapplers of today. Im very well versed in wrestling. But I still want to find a good BJJ instructor and honestly I wanna see what Krav Maga is all about.

When I was younger I thought that WT/WC had all the solutions. Until time after time I saw just how in-effective it COULD be. 

Remember sir, you need to open your mind. Martial arts isn't set or fixed. Its a continually changing monster. You have to stay current in the MA world to deal with all the new/improved ways to defend yourself.

All the best,

Jeff


----------



## VT_Vectis (Dec 14, 2013)

You talk good sense, Jeff.

 In the U.K we don't have much of a wrestling culture, that I know of, not near me at any rate. Though bjj is getting increasingly popular, judo is still in my opinion, the most likely thing you'd come up against or be likely to find being taught near you. What's your opinion on judo's ground fighting and putting it with ving tsun, Jeff?


----------



## Vajramusti (Dec 14, 2013)

jeff_hasbrouck said:


> @WingChun100,
> 
> The reason WT/WC gets blasted so much is because we RARELY win in the ring. Shawn Obasi has a few wins under his belt. But all the best fighters are people who practice a ground fighting system as well as a stand up system. And some WT/WC (Leung Ting for sure) has TRIED to incorporate ground-fighting into their system and have failed miserably. When I quit the Leung Ting system I was in the technician ranks of the LTWT system. And I can tell you that their stuff doesn't work.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> A problem in discussing wing chun in forums is that people make generalized statements about all of wc when they have their own experience  combined with you tube.


----------



## yak sao (Dec 14, 2013)

Like you Jeff, I am a product of WT. I have made it up through the long pole curriculum, so we're basically at the same place in WT training.
My original sifu taught us anti grappling based on his extensive experience of using it against grapplers. 

I'm not out getting in fights every other day, nor do I have any desire whatsoever to get in the ring. I'm just an average guy who loves training and having some skills available to protect my family if need be.

My group doesn't exist in our own little bubble. We have had everything from high school wrestlers to BJJ fighters to catch wrestlers come in from time to time and train with us, and I am a believer that our WT is effective against grappling.
I've applied it successfully too many times to think otherwise.
Is it unbeatable? Of course not, nothing is. But WT, applied properly is going to give a good grappler a run for his money and then some.


----------



## jeff_hasbrouck (Dec 21, 2013)

VT_Vectis said:


> You talk good sense, Jeff.
> 
> In the U.K we don't have much of a wrestling culture, that I know of, not near me at any rate. Though bjj is getting increasingly popular, judo is still in my opinion, the most likely thing you'd come up against or be likely to find being taught near you. What's your opinion on judo's ground fighting and putting it with ving tsun, Jeff?



Vectic,

Funny you should ask. My ex was a very skilled Judo-ka. She took junior worlds... twice I think. I've seen her compete and tried all my wrestling/wt/boxing/mma against her and my honest opinion of Judo is that it is a pretty effective throwing system; However I wasn't overly impressed with their ground-fighting and that is because in competitive Judo (what my ex did) they aren't allowed to do groundfighting... or weren't at the time we were still together. So we didn't really do a lot of that. Plus I was teaching her more stand-up and defenses against take-downs.

This is one topic (judo ground-fighting) where I am certainly out of my depth.

I don't think we should really focus on any type of "Defensive" techniques. I'm all about offense. But concessions must be made. Hence the necessity of incorporating more (and better) anti-grappling techniques.

I've seen some very visually gratifying throws in judo. My ex and I would sometimes go on youtube and just check out their compilation clips and they were SICK!

The only reason I don't like judo throws/techniques is that nowadays (because I haven't seen/experienced the practical) all it seems to be is based off getting points. So I see a lot of compromises of body position/tactical advantages.

Anyways, if you can hit up those BJJ people and if you can find a "collegiate" style wrestling anywhere around you they are definitely some good folks to look up!

All the best bubba,

Jeff


----------



## jeff_hasbrouck (Dec 21, 2013)

VT_Vectis said:


> You talk good sense, Jeff.
> 
> In the U.K we don't have much of a wrestling culture, that I know of, not near me at any rate. Though bjj is getting increasingly popular, judo is still in my opinion, the most likely thing you'd come up against or be likely to find being taught near you. What's your opinion on judo's ground fighting and putting it with ving tsun, Jeff?



Vectic,

Funny you should ask. My ex was a very skilled Judo-ka. She took junior worlds... twice I think. I've seen her compete and tried all my wrestling/wt/boxing/mma against her and my honest opinion of Judo is that it is a pretty effective throwing system; However I wasn't overly impressed with their ground-fighting and that is because in competitive Judo (what my ex did) they aren't allowed to do groundfighting... or weren't at the time we were still together. So we didn't really do a lot of that. Plus I was teaching her more stand-up and defenses against take-downs.

This is one topic (judo ground-fighting) where I am certainly out of my depth.

I don't think we should really focus on any type of "Defensive" techniques. I'm all about offense. But concessions must be made. Hence the necessity of incorporating more (and better) anti-grappling techniques.

I've seen some very visually gratifying throws in judo. My ex and I would sometimes go on youtube and just check out their compilation clips and they were SICK!

The only reason I don't like judo throws/techniques is that nowadays (because I haven't seen/experienced the practical) all it seems to be is based off getting points. So I see a lot of compromises of body position/tactical advantages.

Anyways, if you can hit up those BJJ people and if you can find a "collegiate" style wrestling anywhere around you they are definitely some good folks to look up!

All the best bubba,

Jeff


----------

