# Training pressure points and tap out points on your own?



## DatFlow (Jun 11, 2008)

I know in my school, definatly for self defence, we really stress using pressure points for quick, practically harmless self defence, aswell as tap outs if thing's get on the ground, as well as grappeling standing.

Anyways! I havent been to class in awhile due to doctors orders on my lungs this past month and a half..  But one thing i notice messin around with other people, is my pressure point tolernce is pretty bad, and my tap outs are pretty bad too.. Is it that I just don't train the pressure points enough, and i'm not flexable in these area's enough yet to get my tap out tolerence higher?

Thanks guys, this may be sided toward BJJ or something, but I know you guys abit more.. lol


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## DavidCC (Jun 12, 2008)

It is possible to disassociate your mind from the pain.  

Now, if you are caught in a submission that could lead to an injury (for example, an arm bar) then tap out, it's only practice, if it is on, it's on - no reason to wait for it to hurt.  

However there are some things that merely hurt like hell, but do NOT threaten injury.  Learn to fight through those.  Visualize yourself from an external point of view, step back from the physical sensation.  Keep your mind calm.


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## Drac (Jun 12, 2008)

DavidCC said:


> It is possible to disassociate your mind from the pain.
> 
> Now, if you are caught in a submission that could lead to an injury (for example, an arm bar) then tap out, it's only practice, if it is on, it's on - no reason to wait for it to hurt.
> 
> However there are some things that merely hurt like hell, but do NOT threaten injury. Learn to fight through those. Visualize yourself from an external point of view, step back from the physical sensation. Keep your mind calm.


 
Well said.....


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## punisher73 (Jun 12, 2008)

You can condition yourself to pain just like anything else.  Pain that you haven't experienced before is usually a bigger shock to the system and leads to panic than pain you are used to.  Look at an untrained person when they get hit in the solar plexus or the side of the thigh vs. a trained person that has been hit there tons of times.

That being said, there are some people who do have a high tolerance for pain and "don't feel it" like other people.  When I trained in BJJ for a bit, the only submission holds that would work were chokes or a move (like an armbar) that would break the joint (I was smart enough to tap because I knew the joint was at risk).  I did have to actually ask about several moves because I didn't know what they were designed to do, and I didn't want to be caught in a move and have it not really hurt and then have something break/tear because I didn't know better.


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## MBuzzy (Jun 12, 2008)

Can you please clarify what you mean by tap outs?

As for pressure points, everyone has different tolerances to them.  Some people have no tolerance at all (touch them and it hurts) and some barely have pressure points at all.  I've run into a few people that simply can't feel them.

A few ways to increase tolerance without simply muscling through it, would be to increase muscle mass around the pressure point and to just keep hitting them yourself gradually until you can't feel them anymore.  If you do things enough, your body will get used to it and the pain receptors will stop firing....theoretically!    It might just hurt a lot!


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## DavidCC (Jun 12, 2008)

If your use of pressure points is to induce pain or pain compliance, then you really don't understand the use of pressure points.


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## Whitebelt (Jun 13, 2008)

DavidCC said:


> If your use of pressure points is to induce pain or pain compliance, then you really don't understand the use of pressure points.


 
Please explain


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## MBuzzy (Jun 13, 2008)

DavidCC said:


> If your use of pressure points is to induce pain or pain compliance, then you really don't understand the use of pressure points.


 
I can't say I understand this statement either.  Pressure points happen to work VERY well for pain compliance.


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## DavidCC (Jun 13, 2008)

Pain compliance is not relaible. I think it is common knowledge that everyone's pain threshold is different; for some people it is very high, in fact in the very thread we discussed the importance of raising your own pain tolerance.  

Second, the effects of adrenaline during a violent event (like a fight) also tend to reduce a person's sensitivity to pain.  We've all heard stories like "I didn't evne know it was broken until it was all over" or "I didn't even realize I had been stabbed..." 

Thrid, the effects of drugs an alcohol will reduce pain sensitivity even more, especially when compounded with adrenaline...

The proper application of pressure point or nerve attacks will induce various levels of dysfunction in the muscles, senses, equilibrium, or organ function that may or may not induce pain (although mostly they do!).  For example: cause a knee or other joint to buckle, reduce grip strength, induce dizziness and disorientation, cause nausea or vomiting, cause visual disturbance, induce unconcisouness, activate reflex reactions (muscle spasms or contraction), cause the tongue to swell reducing air flow, change blood pressure (or internally perceived blood pressure)...

When I first started training in kyusho (more accurately, when my teacher started training in kyusho lol) I was more susceptible to pain - grind a body point and I moved!  Now, I've learned how to resist the pain through internal and external methods and those simplistic applications are ineffective.


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## MBuzzy (Jun 13, 2008)

DavidCC said:


> Pain compliance is not relaible. I think it is common knowledge that everyone's pain threshold is different; for some people it is very high, in fact in the very thread we discussed the importance of raising your own pain tolerance.
> 
> Second, the effects of adrenaline during a violent event (like a fight) also tend to reduce a person's sensitivity to pain. We've all heard stories like "I didn't evne know it was broken until it was all over" or "I didn't even realize I had been stabbed..."
> 
> ...


 
All excellent points, I can't disagree with any of them!  The point about people's pain tolerances is right on.  Although I must say that I still do believe in pain compliance.  It may not be completely reliable, but on most people, it will work.  

That may also have something to do with how they are used in my style.  Generally, the pressure points are used in conjunction with a lock of some sort, so even if the pressure point pain doesn't work, you are still controlling their body through the lock.


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## DavidCC (Jun 13, 2008)

I wouldn't risk my life on something that "works on most people" when the people you are most likely to need it against are the ones it is least likely to be effective on (drunk angry doped up biker, or strung out desperate tweakers for example!  Good luck getting pain comliance on those guys!)

As far as joint locks go, what you might be missing is that the application of pressure points is actually helping the lock work because of the neuro-muscular dysfunction being induced, not because it hurts!  The hurting is just icing on the cake   For exaple if you are activating points on the L6,7,8 cluster as part of a wrist lock, whether it hurts or not, it is a good percentage more difficult for that person to resist that lock simply because of the effects those points have on the muscles in the wrist and hand.

The thing is, you don't really need to understand at that level in order to use them effectively.  You just need to learn the proper applicaiton, and as far as I know you could be!  First obtain the functional capability, and then you have a lifetime to study the underlying principles...


I notice you are in Dayton, is that far form Cincinnati?  They have a Kyusho group there,
http://home.fuse.net/RooksKarate/index.html
http://www.kyusho.com/instructors.htm


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## JT_the_Ninja (Jun 13, 2008)

Pressure points are great if you have 100% accuracy, but they're really not as practical for self-defense on the fly, which is why our ho sin sul training is more based on escapes and joint locks, where you don't need 100% accuracy tot get out of the situation. 

Example: One pressure-point escape my sa bom nim showed us, for a two-on-two grab situation, was to rotate the hands outwards and wrap around to press the pressure point right in the middle of the opponent's forearms (which, if you can get it, hurts beyond being able to resist -- I know from experience). However, no matter how many times I practice, I know I wouldn't be able to find the right spot in a situation where both me and my assailant were both moving. More effective would be an escape-joint lock technique (I know a few, but for space's sake, I'll assume you all can imagine), which would allow me to get out of the grip and get in a quick (and probably cheap!) shot before using my legs for their primary function: running.


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## DatFlow (Jun 13, 2008)

DavidCC said:


> Pain compliance is not relaible. I think it is common knowledge that everyone's pain threshold is different; for some people it is very high, in fact in the very thread we discussed the importance of raising your own pain tolerance.
> 
> Second, the effects of adrenaline during a violent event (like a fight) also tend to reduce a person's sensitivity to pain.  We've all heard stories like "I didn't evne know it was broken until it was all over" or "I didn't even realize I had been stabbed..."
> 
> ...



This is very true, but as you said, they can be used for many other things, now givin that was said, can you train your pressure points to resist some of these things? I know your not going to be able to "move" your veins or w/e to make them not cut off or something, but if you can resist the pain, you may be able to change other aspect's..


Also, I see many people say that the more your pressure points are hit, the more you will be able to take the pain, I guess that is the only way to train them for pain then?

As I said with tap-outs, I consider them as a lock or grapple made to create tension on a joint or muscle to the point where you want to say "ok"  or tap your thigh to have your partner stop...


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## DavidCC (Jun 16, 2008)

There are techniques, internal and external, for resisting not only the pain but also the 'energy transfer' that casues the nueromuscular dysfunctions.  Ever here of "iron shirt"? while that term is popularized and generalized, that is a body of knowledge that contains the methods.

I was taught one specific method but it wouldn't be practical to describe it here.  Come to Budo camp and I'l show you LOL  (www.budocamponline.com)

-D


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## Master Jay S. Penfil (Jun 16, 2008)

DavidCC,
You have excellent responses here. Thank you for your input on this subject.

Many people have heard about, or studied (superficially) George Dillmans' work, and others that teach (what they call Kyusho. Very few of them have a real understanding of Kyusho. 

This is not so different from a practitioner that learns impacting technique in the rudimentary form, without the deeper understanding of kinesiology and how to deliver such techniques with smooth balanced movement vs. brute force.

As DavidCC stated; most practitioners are being taught to use these techniques on the members of our society that will be least effected by them. The ATTITUDE of the aggressor will, to a large degree, determine the success or lack there of in the implementation of a give nerve strike.

It is easy to apply these techniques on a compliant class-mate or training partner. When the resistant level of the opponent is raised and his/her adrenaline is heightened, it becomes a totally different problem.

PPCT is a program that was taught for many years to Law Enforcement officers. One of the primary statements that always stood out for me from PPCT was that; Nerve trauma will ultimately cause the subject to either pass out from the hightened adrenalin in their system, or cause them to experience a "SUPER-HUMAN " burst of energy that will cause them to damage or kill you prior to them being subdued.

As for learning how to deal with the pain as a nerve strike/rub is applied on you, the more that you are involved in this training, the higher your pain threshold will be. 

For example; I went thru a Pepper-Spray training program with Sensei Garner Train in 1997. It was my first time training with him and my first experience with the Pepper-Spray. It was a painful and most unpleasant experience, and if I would have been sprayed for the first time by an aggressive assailant in a real life confrontation my lack of understanding of what the pepper is and how it works may have been enough to cause me to loose my life. Having been thru the training and experiencing the pain of the pepper grinding under my eyelids against my eyeballs and then driving myself home 45 minutes later with no injury helped me to establish the knowledge that; in a life threatening situation, being sprayed with pepper is non-injurious and non-lethal. I would now have the ability to fight thru the pain and defend against the incoming weapons. This doesnt mean that it would not hurt terribly, just that the experience left me with a clear understanding of what to expect and the knowledge that pain never killed anyone, unless they gave up as a result of feeling it.

Nerve trauma is like the pepper. The pain the you feel tells you that something is wrong, but ultimately, *it wont kill you*. 

When dealing with a sport-fight you have to know when to Tap-Out, as DavidCC stated in order to escape unnecessary injury. You need to know the difference between discomfort and injury causing pain.

In real life confrontations, there is no opportunity to tap out. You have to know how to keep from being put in those positions in the first place


All the best,


Master Jay S. Penfil


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