# Learning to roll.....



## Chat Noir (Jul 17, 2010)

To cut to the chase, I really stink at this. This is my third class, and I went to my lesson this  afternoon (damn hot too, BTW. It's in the 90's and the "air  conditioning" can barely be felt).  

Anyway, I show up and naturally he wants me to roll backward and try to  roll forward.  I got into position but when it came to the kick off, I  hesitated. I stink forward and backwards.  He tells me I have to relax  and just let it happen.  Go with it.  But frankly it's scary and  intimidating. How does one get past this fear and roll with ease?  

He asked at the end of class if I really wanted to do Judo and reminded  me that it involves break falls and rolling and that I would have to  learn to get beyond the fear. I assured him that I do but in the back of  my mind, I'm thinking "how am I going to do this?" I study the arts  that have been a life time obsession for me and don't want my fear to  keep me from progressing in Judo.  Any advice?


Laura


----------



## myusername (Jul 17, 2010)

Try starting lower, say on your knees and gradually build up confidence before rolling from standing.


----------



## jks9199 (Jul 17, 2010)

Three classes isn't a long time to overcome a lifetime of conditioning that falling down isn't fun.  I've got problems with your instructor questioning your commitment so quickly; it's not very supportive.

There are several threads on rolling around MT; you can find plenty of tips there.  Personally, I find that I can't explain it well in text; it's very much a "gotta do" thing.  You may want to try using a little more padding than the mats in the dojo.


----------



## Gruenewald (Jul 17, 2010)

At my dojo they used to teach kids to somersault first, or build from there since most kids knew how to somersault already. So, you could just start with that to begin with (from your knees, just lean forward, tuck your chin in tight and push forward with your toes lightly). Eventually try to do that from one side (landing on one shoulder), etc. etc. building your way up from there. Also training on more heavily padded mats might help. To do it on a plane you know is absolutely 100% safe and gain confidence there would help you overcome your fear.

Alternatively you could just dive into it, just go. Personally I think this is the easiest way to do it, since once you do it once or twice you'll probably be fine from there (improving it over time).


----------



## K-man (Jul 18, 2010)

Let's face it. If you are going to learn judu, or for that matter aikido or jujutsu, you have to learn to fall safely and to roll.  With little kids I start with a thick foam mattress. The kids have a ball and get used to the motion. Then we move to the mats, maybe even double thickness on rare occasions. If a practitioner has risen to instructor level and cannot help you with rolling, I would consider looking elsewhere. Sorry, questioning your desire to learn judo, because he hasn't been able to teach you to roll like a veteran in three lessons, raises questions in my mind about his ability to teach, not about your ability to roll!


----------



## Slipper (Jul 18, 2010)

I'm going to assume that falls/rolls are the same in both Judo and Aikido. I had a horrible mental block with front rolls that has taken some time *cough*years*cough* to overcome. I'm only now starting to do them with some ease. There were times when I doubted I could continue MA because of my issue with front rolls. I'm grateful to have had a patient Sensei and encouraging training partners. Interestingly, I've been able to teach people how to front roll in spite of having difficulty with it myself. I believe that's because every single person in our dojo has shown me "their" way. I've learned there are a bunch of "ways" with the end result always the same.

In my experience, guys seem to pick up much faster on this than the ladies do. 

Please don't get discouraged. Sometimes, it just takes time. Stressing over it will make things worse. What helped me with back rolls was to sit down and simply roll backwards (without doing a back roll). There was something about the repetitive feel of the roll on my back that made this much easier to accomplish. 

Big soft mats were my salvation on practicing front rolls. It helped me get past a lot of my fear of being hurt.

Good luck.


----------



## Manny (Aug 12, 2010)

You are not alone in this, I know how to break a fall but roll is very dificult and scary thing to me, some months ago I got a hard blow where the back meets the butt doing front rollin from standing position, I felt a hard hit in my a..... when landing and this leaved me with a bruise very large in my coxis.

Rolling is always cost me a lot and definetively don't like it but it's something we must learn.

Manny


----------



## Stac3y (Aug 12, 2010)

I've had to learn this relatively quickly. I'm still not fond of it (especially dive rolls), but I've become fairly competent. We start with side and back breakfalls, and do many, many reps, starting in a squat and then moving on to standing. I find the breakfalls much easier than the dive rolls. I thought I'd never get those right. They are SCARY at first, and the way the instructor was teaching them just didn't work for me. So I kept searching for a different method, and a fellow student finally gave me one that worked for me. I don't think your teacher should be questioning your commitment, but should be looking for a better way to teach you.


----------



## lklawson (Aug 13, 2010)

Well, a topic comes back up.  Cool.

Yes, if you're going to do any Asian grappling art, you're gonna learn how to do roll-falls.  Learn it.  Love it.  It's actually kinda fun, truthfully.

After having practiced Asian grappling arts for... um... let's just say "a long time now" I've concluded that the biggest reason for roll falls is tradition.  

In Aikido many of the two-person kata end in a projected "throw" which is convenient to roll-fall out of.  Some in Judo too.  But I've never seen anyone in Randori or Shiai take a roll-fall.  Back-falls?  Yea.  Side-falls?  All the time.  Front-falls?  Seldom but every once in a while.  But a roll-fall during actual resistance sparring?  Seems to be more rare than an honest politician.

The closest I've seen is when uke takes a hip-toss of some sort (such as seoinage) and goes tail over tea kettle.  In that case the fall that uke takes looks kinda sorta almost like a roll-fall where uke just "stays down" and doesn't flow the momentum back up (can't, really).  

Another theory is that only the first half/two-thirds of the roll-fall are the important part (safe falling).  The fall-forward-and-end-up-on-your-back part.  The roll-on-up is just a convenient and easy way to get back up again.  If that's the reason then I think that it provides a false feedback and rolling back up is ultimately a negative for training.

I think I'll talk to Bob and Mike about this next Judo session.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## pgsmith (Aug 13, 2010)

Another two cents ...
The only way to become comfortable with _anything_ is through familiarity. Practice, practice, and more practice will enable you to gain skill in whatever you are practicing, be it kicking, punching, throws, or falling. If the only time you are practicing is when you are in class, then you aren't going to overcome your problems very quickly. When I first started learning rolls many years ago, I learned by practicing at home. In class, my instructor would explain how it was done, and would tell me what I was doing wrong. At home, I would move stuff out of the way so I had a large enough carpeted area, and I'd practice from my knees. The carpeting was soft enough that I wouldn't injure myself, but hard enough that I could definitely feel wherever I thumped instead of rolling smoothly. I tried to practice some every day, and it didn't take long at all until I could roll easily in class.

  I agree Kirk, rolling isn't very useful for randori. However, it becomes more important if you are practicing resistance sparring with weapons. Being able to roll back up to your feet when your opponent pulls a knife or sword after throwing you becomes extremely important!


----------



## KELLYG (Aug 13, 2010)

Learning how to roll is tough but once you have it it will always be with you.  I have seen people use the large balls akimi balls I think that is what they are called.  Drape your self across the top and push yourself over this will allow you to feel the roll.  The rest is just confidence and practice.  I have actually use the front roll and side fall in real life and instead of getting hurt, I suffered no more than injured pride.


----------



## l_uk3y (Aug 14, 2010)

I know the feeling.  Even after approx 2 years of Hapkido. I'm more then happy to be thrown around like a ragdoll. But Cat rolls and backwards rolls still cause me grief.  Ive never in my life been able to roll over backwards (I think its a fear of landing on my neck).  Whilst I feel comfortable going forwards, I have it in my mind that by leaping into it as opposed to just ducking and rolling that I will land bad and do damage.

Its a real mind job.


----------



## Bruno@MT (Aug 14, 2010)

It is all in the mind.
I already knew some basic rolls from my earlier modern jujutsu training, but in ninpo there are more and more advanced ways of rolling, from any position in any direction.

After having learned the theory a couple of times, I rented the dojo a coupl of times on my own dime, and spent an hour and a half each time on just rolling. It can be really fun once you break down the mental barriers inside your mind. Because really, that is where it is at.

Now for a couple of practical tips: when rolling forward, step out with one foot, bow down and set your hands in a T pattern on the floor, with the hand of the forward foot side being the top of the T. Make your arm round and roll over your arm / shoulder. The foot that was your back foot touches your butt and is the foot that you rise with.

For rolling backward, step back, and sit down by bending the back leg. Keep that leg bent. Roll backward while swinging the other leg over the opposite shoulder (the side of which the leg was bent). With some practise, you will go round without a problem. The bent leg will also move with your body, and you should be able to end up in a kneeling position with that knee touching the ground, and your other leg with the foot flat on the floor. You roll over your shoulder, not your neck.

I hope this makes some kind of sense. The only way to learn it is by doing it. A lot. You will get better, because your body will find the most efficient way of doing it if you just repeat it enough times. And in the beginning you may be sore, stiff or get vertigo, but that will pass and eventually you'll roll without having to think about it.


----------



## Stac3y (Aug 16, 2010)

Ugh. I'm pretty decent with dive rolls, but yesterday I had a brain cramp and got dropped right on my head from a kneeling fireman's throw. I think I might be an inch shorter this morning than I was yesterday morning.


----------



## Gaius Julius Caesar (Aug 16, 2010)

lklawson said:


> Well, a topic comes back up. Cool.
> 
> Yes, if you're going to do any Asian grappling art, you're gonna learn how to do roll-falls. Learn it. Love it. It's actually kinda fun, truthfully.
> 
> ...


 
Kirk,

 Within rolls is a lesson though, it actually improves your ability to throw and project others.

 You learn how to get rounded and go with it instead of fighting a throw after you are broken. No you hardly ever get to roll out of a throw, but you do trip and if you watch the vid i posted from our man's promotion test, watch the headlock defense that is a roll.

 I do a nasty forward rolling takedown where I capture the enemy's knee as I roll as well.

  There are reasons for rolling in armed combat as well.
 In Bravo Two Zero (And I knew someone who is familiar with the story from another source) McNabb describes a Brit Operative who was being followed by 3 IRA Dickers. They shoved him and he rolled with it. As he was in the halfway point (where you can see behind you) he saw that they were pulling weapons, so he pulled his Hi-Power as he came up and did what SAS/14 Int guys are known for, giving people 3rd and 4th eyes.

 We use this for a hard shove from behind, unarmed, with deployment of a kinfe or a pistol. We use a backroll the same way.

 For the OP, get a swissball, hug it and use it as a rolling aid.
I stole it from a Mike Swain video and I use it to get my kids class used to rolling.

 Good luck, keep at it and try to relax. It's ok to be cautious but once you go hesitation hurts and can kill in combat.


----------



## lklawson (Aug 17, 2010)

Well, I spoke to Mike and Bob, who've been doing Judo longer than most people I know have been alive, and I got the expected answers.

The roll-back-up just doesn't happen in Randori or Shiai.  Their justification of it followed along the expected lines of: 


Back in JuJitsu/projection throws.
If you trip
If pushed from behind
So no surprises there.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Tiberius (Aug 18, 2010)

Just do it slowly the best you can and improve from there. Try doing it outside the class too.


----------



## Shin71 (Aug 18, 2010)

Start from a lower position, like on your knees or on your haunches.  you have to crawl before you walk and walk before you run.


----------



## skeksi (Aug 22, 2010)

I agree, definitely start from a lower position. When I practice backward rolls, the first few I do each day are still from a squat until I 'remember' how it goes and feel more comfortable. After being absent for many months I was again scared of back rolls, so my teacher guided me and sort of pushed me over. I felt more confident about doing it on my own then.


----------



## Necro (Aug 26, 2010)

in my jujitsu class and im sure most others they generally try to get you to do it standing first if you can't then onto one knee, personally i find the forward rolls simple compared to the backwards ones.


----------



## ETinCYQX (Nov 20, 2010)

Chat Noir said:


> To cut to the chase, I really stink at this. This is my third class, and I went to my lesson this afternoon (damn hot too, BTW. It's in the 90's and the "air conditioning" can barely be felt).
> 
> Anyway, I show up and naturally he wants me to roll backward and try to roll forward. I got into position but when it came to the kick off, I hesitated. I stink forward and backwards. He tells me I have to relax and just let it happen. Go with it. But frankly it's scary and intimidating. How does one get past this fear and roll with ease?
> 
> ...


 
This may be a very hard thing to explain from text.

My sensei (who is ikkyu) tells new students (myself included) to start on all fours, and "sweep" the arm you're rolling on in towards your knees so that you're rolling from a lower height. It does take a while to get used to and a few weeks in, I can roll with confidence now. Rolling backward is harder to learn IMO.

I hope that trick helps, if you don't get what I'm saying (I'm a noob too and this trick helped me) let me know, I'll gladly break out the camcorder and record a quick clip for you.

Ethan.


----------



## SensibleManiac (Nov 21, 2010)

Definitely, when beginning start from your knees and go very slowly, this will make a huge difference then when comfortable move a little higher until you can do it standing.
Good luck, don't doubt yourself, it takes time.


----------



## ScottJJ (May 20, 2011)

Slipper said:


> I'm going to assume that falls/rolls are the same in both Judo and Aikido. I had a horrible mental block with front rolls that has taken some time *cough*years*cough* to overcome. I'm only now starting to do them with some ease. There were times when I doubted I could continue MA because of my issue with front rolls. I'm grateful to have had a patient Sensei and encouraging training partners. Interestingly, I've been able to teach people how to front roll in spite of having difficulty with it myself. I believe that's because every single person in our dojo has shown me "their" way. I've learned there are a bunch of "ways" with the end result always the same.
> 
> In my experience, guys seem to pick up much faster on this than the ladies do.
> 
> ...


 
I too had a huge mental block on doing rolls and your experiences sound similar to mine.  Also, I had the same experience with everyone showing me a different way of how to do it.  This actually helped because eventually someone told me something that made it all click for me.  When I was hurt for several classes I got to watch how others were doing these and I followed a style that I liked for my size.  I'm having a much easier time with it now.  its about freakin time.


----------



## Aikicomp (May 23, 2011)

Along with the other input, I usually have the student start from a low position and tell them that they should feel the mat on their body on every part of the roll.

If doing a left side forward roll; tuck your chin in, start roll and feel the mat from your wrist to your forearm, to your elbow, to your shoulder (wrist, forearm, elbow and shoulder should be like a hoop), across your back(from left shoulder to right hip, to right thigh, to right knee and shin and finally rise up on the right foot.

Another thing is to think of rolling in a small space (as opposed to a large space), keep tight and compact and to "be like a ball"

Mike


----------



## Chat Noir (May 23, 2011)

I appreciate all the replies on this post - it's been very helpful.  I took time off from Judo when I had oral surgery on the 22nd of April (my mouth is still frozen believe it or not).  I was horrified when I came back to realize that I was nervous all over again about rolling, but I tried it on the knees with the ball - helped a lot.  I guess learning to roll is something you have to do often regardless of your rank to do it well and correctly. Thanks again, people.

Laura


----------



## Champ-Pain (Jun 8, 2011)

In order to become good at doing rolls, first you must lose your fear of rolling. 

NOTE: RHS - Right foot forward, left hand down (to support body weight / balance) propel forward, roll over right shoulder and break fall by hitting the tatami with the palm of the hand that was originally down (left hand).

NOTE: LHS - Left foot forward, right hand down (same reason as above) propel forward, roll over left shoulder and break fall by hitting tatami with the palm of the hand that was originally down (right hand).

Good Luck!


----------



## Thesemindz (Jun 8, 2011)

When I have a student who's uncomfortable with rolling I start them out on their back with their knees tucked into their chest and have them roll forward and backward and side to side. Think of an egg wobbling on a table. After a while, we start rolling up to a squat, or onto our side, or all the way over our side to hands and knees. Slowly, over time, as they become more comfortable being on the floor, we start with simple forward somersaults from a squatting position with both hands on the mat. Eventually we progress to shoulder rolls, and backwards rolls and standing rolls and diving rolls. But I always start a student as close to the ground as possible, going as slowly as possible, and I never push them when they aren't ready.

There's plenty of karate to learn, they don't have to master rolls today. If I scare them, I might drive them out of the school altogether. If I support them, and take the fear out of what we are doing by going slowly and safely, they'll stick around long past the point where rolls quit being scary.

Rolling is easy, but for many people it is intimidating. Something about going head over heels affects a primal instinct in some humans. And for some people, it's painful or even dangerous. I have a student who can't do some rolls because of arthritis and pre-existing back and neck injuries. As her instructor, I tailor her training to her individual challenges.

Judo is an art where you start rolling from the beginning. I had a friend who took a kung fu style where they had him doing in place dive rolls in his very first class. At our school you don't even do side barrel rolls from your hands and knees for almost a year. You don't do forward shoulder rolls from a standing position for almost two years. But that just depends on the art you study.

If you tell your instructor that you're scared, and his answer is for you to consider whether or not you really want to do this, he's sending you an important message. Maybe it's serious advice about committing to your training. Maybe it's easier than saying he's not a very good instructor and doesn't know an effective way to help you overcome your fear. I'm not there, you have to decide for yourself what he means. Maybe he was just having a bad day. Instructors are human too. But if you continue training, and your fears and challenges are repeatedly met with derision and framed as weakness on your part, I would reconsider training under that instructor. But that's just me. I'm not there.

Rolling can be scary, but once you learn how to do it properly, it'll be a lot less so. The ground looks so far away, but if you practice on your own slowly and close to the ground, you will gradually move further and further away until you're comfortable doing rolls from a standing position. It's the same with breakfalls. There's nothing really all that dangerous about a properly executed roll or breakfall, and as you learn to do it properly and feel more and more confident in your technique, you'll be more comfortable going to the ground because you'll be coming up unharmed.

If you're at the right place, and you like your training, stick with it. If you don't, find a place you do like and stick with that. Either way, you won't be afraid of rolls forever. I promise. Ten years from now, you'll be telling your students about "that time I used to be afraid of rolling too."


-Rob


----------



## Chat Noir (Jun 11, 2011)

Well, last weekend I was promoted to yellow belt - although I would have been fine to stay a white belt forever, my sensei insisted it's the journey, not the destination, so we had the test. I was thrown for an hour and had to throw as well so I was sore for the week (mostly my tush); I wasn't happy with my ukemi but with time I hope to improve as I continue to work on it.


----------



## Thesemindz (Jun 11, 2011)

Congratulations!

Don't worry about what you didn't excel at. You aren't done learning. You'll get there.

Way to go on the promotion!


-Rob


----------



## Grasshopper22 (Apr 12, 2012)

Your instructor is right, just relax and go with the flow. For the falling breakfalls, start off in a squat position and practice from there, then get higher and higher until you can do it from a standing position. For the rolling ones, you can't do yousrself any serious injury from these so just trust yourself to roll. Have you ever done that exercise where you lie on your back put your hands on your hips and put your feet over your head until they touch the mat? Just think of that, go slowly and take it one step at a time, it will become so easy and natural to you eventually that you'll do it without even thinking, I promise.


----------



## Grasshopper22 (Apr 12, 2012)

Or you could statr off by rolling sideways and then gradually decreasing the angle of your roll until eventually you just end up going straight over backwards


----------



## K-man (Apr 12, 2012)

Grasshopper22 said:


> Your instructor is right, just relax and go with the flow. For the falling breakfalls, start off in a squat position and practice from there, then get higher and higher until you can do it from a standing position. For the rolling ones, you can't do yousrself any serious injury from these so just trust yourself to roll. Have you ever done that exercise where you lie on your back put your hands on your hips and put your feet over your head until they touch the mat? Just think of that, go slowly and take it one step at a time, it will become so easy and natural to you eventually that you'll do it without even thinking, I promise.


*Grasshopper *you're about 9 months late!  If you took the time to read the thread you would have read that *Chat Noir *had got back to rolling and had in fact graded. See post #28 above.  



> Or you could statr off by rolling sideways and then gradually decreasing the angle of your roll until eventually you just end up going straight over backwards



And this is just plain nonsense. If you are rolling sideways you cannot decrease the angle of your roll. You would need to increase it and that is not physically possible.  Even if you could, you say that eventually you end up going straight over backwards, which you don't. That is a gymnast's roll. Our rolls go over the shoulder with the head out of the way.   If you had read the thread you would have seen all that advice.


[h=3][/h]


----------



## lklawson (Apr 12, 2012)

K-man said:


> And this is just plain nonsense. If you are rolling sideways you cannot decrease the angle of your roll. You would need to increase it and that is not physically possible.  Even if you could, you say that eventually you end up going straight over backwards, which you don't. That is a gymnast's roll. Our rolls go over the shoulder with the head out of the way.   If you had read the thread you would have seen all that advice.


Grasshopper has < 3 months training in martial arts.  He's trying to be helpful, he's just inexperienced.

Grasshopper,
I know you're trying to be helpful but, honestly, I'm not sure your experience level is where it needs be just yet to be offering advice on this sort of technique.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------

