# Eye gouging thread



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 27, 2012)

Gorilla said, in another thread 


> Start a eye gouging thread for heavens sake....:rtfm:



So, as a mindless servant of others, I'm starting this thread. 

How can you teach someone to eye gouge when you clearly can't practice that technique?

Is it even effective?

If so, what situations is it effective in?

Have fun!


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## Big Don (Nov 27, 2012)

Gouge... well... kinda... During sparring, nothing, aside from hitting harder than you are willing to be hit, is fair game.
If you push on the eye lightly with your thumb or finger(s) it hurts, a lot. It takes the fight right out of people. You can practice anything, except, cannibalism.


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## DennisBreene (Nov 27, 2012)

As an ophthalmologist who's seen a fair number of eye injuries in my career; I can say that when you strike an eye with your fingers, you will at least cause enough pain to momentarily gain an advantage.  I don't think I ever saw a patient who was struck in the classic Three Stooges style. Most fighting injuries were classic blunt force trauma from a fist. The results could range from a black eye to fractures of the bones of the eye socket to rupture and severe disruption of the eyeball itself. Some of the most serious injuries I've seen were the result of accidental contact to the eye during basketball games while scrambling under the net.  These injuries were more likely to be from fingers stricking the eye and from a whip like motion of the hand while blocking or reaching for the ball. I suspect that the most practical way of attacking the eye in combat would be with a rapid multi finger whip like strike. Multi fingered to increase the odds that at least one eye is struck and whip like to impart maximum force to the strike. I have much less faith that a traditional "poke" would be as likely to hit on target with force.


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## David43515 (Nov 27, 2012)

I knew a Silat instructor who taught whipping strikes to the ees and simply built a foam head with deep eye sockets. He'd fill the hole with cotton balls so students could drive them to the back of the head or try tearing them out. Another kung fu teacher I trained with years ago had a few of the styrofoam heads that used to come with womens' wigs. He hollowed out the eye sockets and would put grapes in there. If you really want to train something, you'll com up with a way.Even saftey goggles might allow for very light contact sparring.


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## DennisBreene (Nov 27, 2012)

David43515 said:


> I knew a Silat instructor who taught whipping strikes to the ees and simply built a foam head with deep eye sockets. He'd fill the hole with cotton balls so students could drive them to the back of the head or try tearing them out. Another kung fu teacher I trained with years ago had a few of the styrofoam heads that used to come with womens' wigs. He hollowed out the eye sockets and would put grapes in there. If you really want to train something, you'll com up with a way.Even saftey goggles might allow for very light contact sparring.



For the sake of those of us who have to put those eyes back together; PLEASE wear eye protection if you are going to attempt such manouvers.


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## Cyriacus (Nov 27, 2012)

Hm.
I have mixed feelings about eye gouging, and i feel a list is best.

1: You have to beat the blink reflex to do the most possible damage.
2: Youre incapacitating both of your arms at close range, meaning they are in range to eye gouge you.
3: If you eye gouge someone, they now have reason to be super seriously angry with you.
4: From a top mount position, i can see it having merit.
5: On your back on the ground its a great place to be if you want to get arm-barred.

That being said, i do think they have their place, but i prefer raking the eyes as a setup rather than gouging them, and you can practice it without contact.


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 27, 2012)

Depends on what you mean by "effective". In the original thread, the OP was talking specifically about "gouging out the eye" and, frankly, that's pretty damned difficult to do, unless you're in a *Kill Bill* episode.

On the other hand, such a degree of damage is far from necessary for strikes to the eyes to be effective. Very little contact is required to cause significant amounts of pain, and the eyes are one of those areas that people tend to reflexively guard (often to the point of neglecting their defense of other areas). A flick of the fingers at the eyes will, with very little impact, take a lot of the fight right out of the vast majority of people.

Frankly, I've seen a lot more people with significant orbital fractures than globe injuries.


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## seasoned (Nov 27, 2012)

DennisBreene said:


> As an ophthalmologist who's seen a fair number of eye injuries in my career; I can say that when you strike an eye with your fingers, you will at least cause enough pain to momentarily gain an advantage.  I don't think I ever saw a patient who was struck in the classic Three Stooges style. Most fighting injuries were classic blunt force trauma from a fist. The results could range from a black eye to fractures of the bones of the eye socket to rupture and severe disruption of the eyeball itself. Some of the most serious injuries I've seen were the result of accidental contact to the eye during basketball games while scrambling under the net.  These injuries were more likely to be from fingers stricking the eye and from a whip like motion of the hand while blocking or reaching for the ball.*
> 
> I suspect that the most practical way of attacking the eye in combat would be with a rapid multi finger whip like strike. Multi fingered to increase the odds that at least one eye is struck and whip like to impart maximum force to the strike. I have much less faith that a traditional "poke" would be as likely to hit on target with force*.



This is the strike first taught to me years ago. Off the front hand much like a jab, but as you describe above, a flicking action.
Also the eyes are a target I have constantly taught over the years in women's self defense classes. 

(Palm strikes to their ears, then grab one ear and with the other hand thumb in the eye, then RUN).


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## Instructor (Nov 27, 2012)

We have two ways to go about it.  A quick jab like spear hand to the eye.  And the one we call an eye gouge which is a open handed slap to both ears using the ears for leverage with the fingertips and driving the thumbs into the eye sockets.  In practice we usually target the infraorbital nerve to demonstrate.  It hurts and as fringe benefit nobody goes blind.


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 27, 2012)

Not exactly 'eye gouging' but...

To my way of thinking, the eyes are a valid target, but not a primary target in most cases.  As primates who are historically absolutely dependent upon vision for survival, it is deeply ingrained in our basic instincts to protect our eyes.  Most rapid hand movement towards the eyes, or even light contact to the eyes, causes an instant and almost always involuntary reaction.  The head jerks back, the hands come up, the eyes close, etc.

This creates opportunities to strike exposed areas that can end a fight.  If you happen, in the course of self-defense, to actually disrupt the attacker's vision, all the better.

To me, self-defense requires rapid removal of the ability of the attacker to continue to attack.  This can be accomplished in many ways.  Creating distance, damaging attacking limbs, removing the ability of the attacker to pursue, and so on.  If they cannot see, they cannot fight.  Moreover, they won't WANT to fight, they will want to retreat and protect their eyes.  Even someone who is very intoxicated or drugged is still hard-wired from primal times to protect their eyes.

So for me, an eye strike, even an incomplete strike, is a very good idea if the opportunity presents itself in a self-defense scenario.  But I would not depend upon it to incapacitate or end the fight by itself.  If it does, great.  If it does not, an instant followup technique using the moment of distraction is the way to go.

Actual gouging of the eyes?  I see that in close quarters, perhaps.  If both parties are on the ground, maybe, or circumstances such as those.  As valid as a gonad grab-and-twist.  Although honestly, if you've ever gotten your thumb into your own eye accidentally, you know it's a dull pain, not the instant, sharp, pain of grabbing a handful of skin under the bicep and just squeezing the crap out of it, or the inside of the thigh near the groin with the same grab (not to mention the testicles, always a popular target).  That kind of pain gets attention in all but the very drunk or drugged. I suspect I'd still go for an eye poke rather than an eye gouge, though.  A fast stiff-fingered jab into the eyes, and prepare for an instant secondary attack based on the reaction to the eye poke.

Just my thoughts as a student.


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## oftheherd1 (Nov 27, 2012)

Instructor said:


> We have two ways to go about it. A quick jab like spear hand to the eye. And the one we call an eye gouge which is a open handed slap to both ears using the ears for leverage with the fingertips and driving the thumbs into the eye sockets. In practice we usually target the infraorbital nerve to demonstrate. It hurts and as fringe benefit nobody goes blind.



Another one taught in the Hapkido I learned was for front bear hug defense with the arms free. You sudo strike the ribs as you step a little to the right rear, then move your right hand to the middle of the opponent's back to hold him, then strike/push up forcefully on his chin with the open palm of your left hand. Your fingers will fall roughly with two on each side of the opponent's nose, with the tips at the eyes, or just a little above. You push inward forcefully as you rake downward and attempt to fill your fingertips with as much eye/eyelid matter as possible. Fight over, and DennisBreene doesn't like you.

When in close, you may find other opportunities to make the same move against the eyes.


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## elder999 (Nov 27, 2012)

kempodisciple said:


> .
> 
> How can you teach someone to eye gouge when you clearly can't practice that technique?



BOB.


.



Live drills while wearing eye goggles.

Oranges. 



kempodisciple said:


> .Is it even effective?



Slap on the side of the head, and in goes my thumb-of course, my hands are that big.

In any case, it doesn't matter if the eye is open or closed; the lid's not gonna stop a thumb that's stabbed through a few thousand oranges (pretty much every one I've ever eaten for the last 30 years or so....:lfao: )

EDIT: "Sparred" with a gung fu gu on LI back in the eighties-it was more like a cat playing with a mouse, and I was the mouse. :lfao: He was super fast, and would just reach over and flick my eyelashes with the tips of his fingers.

Glad *he* wasn't out to gouge my eyes.....:lfao:


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## punisher73 (Nov 27, 2012)

I wish I could remember the right, but in a UFC match one of the guys reaches out to kind of stiff arm the guy's face as he is checking a kick.  He put his fingers right in the guys eye without meaning to.  The other guy immediately dropped on the ground holding his eye.  Yes, I would say that they are effective.

There are certain types of "shock pain" that are very hard to experience enough to override the message to the brain.  You get kicked in the testicles enough and it still hurts REALLY bad, but you know you aren't going to die and can go through the pain.  Getting hit in the solar plexus, or the nerve on the side of the leg same thing.  You know and understand what is happening and while it still effects you, you can still function.  Think about the first time you got hit really hard in the solar plexus and DIDN'T know what was going to happen, you get a panic response that sets in and really hampers you.

As far as, how to train.  There are different ways from hanging ping pong balls to sheets of paper, to mannequin heads.  Every time you punch someone in the nose with a jab, you are training yourself to fingerjab and learn the timing and accuracy required.  The only limiting factor is your imagination (and safety).

In American Kenpo they created a set just on the different ways to do finger whips/rakes/gouges/spears to vulnerable targets.


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## MJS (Nov 27, 2012)

How can it be trained?  Eye protection and live drills, as Elder said. I've seen clips of Vunak doing this.  Yeah, I know he may not be everyones favorite JKD person, but he's training it, nonetheless.  I think that its a very effective technique.  If a simple eyelash or dirt/dust getting in your eye, can cause pain and discomfort, getting a finger in the eye, be it a poke, gouge, finger whip...they all can be very effective.  Even if the eyes are closed, it's not like you can condition your eyes or eyelids.  Furthermore, IMO, if you can reach with a punch, then simply extending the fingers shouldn't be difficult.  Again, its something that needs to be practiced.  

I feel that its a tool best used in close, ie: within arms reach or grappling.  

Of course, like anything we do in the arts, I also feel that we need to think about what the situation is, before we just fly off the handle and do something.  Your drunk friend who's being an *** probably doesnt deserve a poke to the eye, but the guy who's trying to mug you, who's also holding a knife...yeah, I could justify the eye shot more in that case....but thats just me.


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## Tony Dismukes (Nov 27, 2012)

Over the years, I've received an accidental hard poke to the eyes in sparring three times that I can think of.

One time it made my eye water up a bit and I stepped out for a couple of minutes just to make sure no serious damage was done.  If it had been a real fight it would have made an effective distraction.  (Weird long term effect - for the next six months whenever I was in the dark I would see sporadic flashing circles of light.)

One time it hit me just right and I dropped to my knees holding my face in utter agony.  It was fine a minute or two later, but it definitely would have won a fight.

One time it made my eyes water up to where I could barely see for a few minutes.  However - I had already gotten a grip on my sparring partner.  Working without my vision I was still able to take him down, get the mount, and finish him with an armbar.

Lesson learned: a flicking poke to the eyes can be very effective, but is not a guarantee.  Another consideration: what about the risks of breaking or jamming your own fingers when you extend a fast poke and connect with something other than your opponents eyes, such as a forehead or an elbow block?  I don't know that I would rely on the technique, but I certainly want to make sure that my own defensive structure protects me from accidental or deliberate eye pokes.


With regard to eye gouges, as opposed to flicky eye pokes, I like the approach I learned from a seminar with Roy Harris.  The idea is that if you can control the back of your partners head with one hand and simulate a sideways gouging action to the forehead above the eyes with the other hand, then you could have managed an effective eye gouge if you had wanted to for real.  Working with training partners that I trust, I've worked this into stand-up clinch drills and ground grappling.  The trick is to be able to maintain your grappling flow without being distracted by the possiblility of using an eye gouge or the possibility of having one used against you.  Once you are used to this, you can monitor your position in your regular grappling sessions to notice where the possibilities for eye gouging might arise, even though you aren't actually training them at the moment.  As with the eye pokes, I consider having strong defenses against eye gouges to be more important than the ability to use them.


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 27, 2012)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Lesson learned: a flicking poke to the eyes can be very effective, but is not a guarantee.



Nothing is a guarantee, but I would also tend to suspect that the average street self-defense encounter would not be against a well-trained martial artist with the experience, ability, and tenacity to do what you did in your third experience.



> Another consideration: what about the risks of breaking or jamming your own fingers when you extend a fast poke and connect with something other than your opponents eyes, such as a forehead or an elbow block?  I don't know that I would rely on the technique, but I certainly want to make sure that my own defensive structure protects me from accidental or deliberate eye pokes.



I believe some arts practice an eye rake as opposed to a stiff-fingered poke.  Our own 'knife hand' strike is done with the hand slightly cupped, as if scooping water, rather than rigid and stiff.  I hope that might protect from jamming them, to some extent.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 27, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Nothing is a guarantee, but I would also tend to suspect that the average street self-defense encounter would not be against a well-trained martial artist with the experience, ability, and tenacity to do what you did in your third experience.


Hell, a semi-trained martial artist wouldn't be able to do what he did. If my eyes started watering after getting hit in them, I don't think I would have the focus to finish without my vision. Very impressed, Tony!


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## Tez3 (Nov 27, 2012)

I should say in the original thread where the subject came up the person who mentioned it was actually talking abut eye gouging as actually taking the eyeball out of it's socket and not a poke or strike in the eye. It was proposed too that it was a defence against a rear naked choke.


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 27, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> I should say in the original thread where the subject came up the person who mentioned it was actually talking abut eye gouging as actually taking the eyeball out of it's socket and not a poke or strike in the eye. It was proposed too that it was a defence against a rear naked choke.



Thanks, I had not read the thread in question.  I'm thinking not a good defense, although frankly, once the choke is on, there aren't many good defenses against it.  Tap, I'd say, or you're going to sleep, maybe forever.


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## punisher73 (Nov 27, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Thanks, I had not read the thread in question.  I'm thinking not a good defense, although frankly, once the choke is on, there aren't many good defenses against it.  Tap, I'd say, or you're going to sleep, maybe forever.



Agreed, if it is a rear naked choke then the person probably has grappling skills and knows how to tuck the head to avoid just that thing.  Now if it is just a person grabbing you from behind more with the arm around your neck throat and not necessarily knowing what they are doing you stand more of a chance with that counter.

Mr. Mattocks:  As a side note, for your knifehand strike (cupping as opposed to ridged) is that a dojo preference or a lineage preference?  When speaking/sharing with other IR people they all seemed to do it with more of the ridged hand idea and fingers more straight.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 27, 2012)

punisher73 said:


> Mr. Mattocks:  As a side note, for your knifehand strike (cupping as opposed to ridged) is that a dojo preference or a lineage preference?  When speaking/sharing with other IR people they all seemed to do it with more of the ridged hand idea and fingers more straight.



Was about to ask the same question. For a few months, I practiced isshin-ryu(nothing wrong with it, just wasn't the style for me), and I saw the ridged knife hand being taught, as well as an eye poke with the fingers spread out to make up for accuracy (which in my opinion would lead to jamming the rest of the fingers by accident), almost the complete opposite of your rake and cupped ridge. Does it change from dojo to dojo, or was the one I was at an exception, or is yours an exception?

*PS:*The above was a genuine question, I was not intending any malice towards isshin ryu, or your dojo, or suggesting that either dojo is straying from isshin-ryu.


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 27, 2012)

kempodisciple said:


> Was about to ask the same question. For a few months, I practiced isshin-ryu(nothing wrong with it, just wasn't the style for me), and I saw the ridged knife hand being taught, as well as an eye poke with the fingers spread out to make up for accuracy (which in my opinion would lead to jamming the rest of the fingers by accident), almost the complete opposite of your rake and cupped ridge. Does it change from dojo to dojo, or was the one I was at an exception, or is yours an exception?
> 
> *PS:*The above was a genuine question, I was not intending any malice towards isshin ryu, or your dojo, or suggesting that either dojo is straying from isshin-ryu.





punisher73 said:


> Agreed, if it is a rear naked choke then the person probably has grappling skills and knows how to tuck the head to avoid just that thing.  Now if it is just a person grabbing you from behind more with the arm around your neck throat and not necessarily knowing what they are doing you stand more of a chance with that counter.
> 
> Mr. Mattocks:  As a side note, for your knifehand strike (cupping as opposed to ridged) is that a dojo preference or a lineage preference?  When speaking/sharing with other IR people they all seemed to do it with more of the ridged hand idea and fingers more straight.



I do not honestly know if the way I was taught to form the hand for a nukite strike is a specific part of Isshin-Ryu, or if it is simply specific to my dojo.  I will ask my Sensei.  No offense taken at the questions, quite legitimate.

To be clear, we do not have an 'eye raking' attack; I just mentioned that some martial arts do.  Not Isshin-Ryu to the best of my knowledge.

As to the nukite hand formation, it was describe to me as this.  Imagine drinking water from your cupped hands at a hand pump.  That's it.  Now, you kind of have to be a country boy to get that reference, because I've seen people do it who didn't grow up drinking from garden hoses and hand-pumped wells, and they cup 'too much' when they cup their hands.  It's very slight, very subtle.  Farm boys know if you cup your hand too much to drink water, it runs out.  You use a very mild cup and bring the water to your face rapidly.  This, by the way, is the same way we do the 'brush' in our Wansu kata.  Hand is not rigid.  Our fingers are together, but not tightly pressed together.  Thumb in, of course. Just a natural hand formation, really.




If you want to see exactly how subtle the 'cup' is, straighten your hand out as much as you can.  Make it totally flat and rigid.  Then try to lay your pinkie finger on top of the ring finger next to it.  You probably can't do it, but by the time your pinkie is halfway there, that's the amount of cup we use.  It is my understanding that some martial arts ryus use that method to make the actual strike - keeping that pinkie tucked over.  We don't do that, but it shows how the hand is supposed to be cupped.  Really subtle and easy to mistake for a straight or rigid hand.


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## DennisBreene (Nov 27, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> Depends on what you mean by "effective". In the original thread, the OP was talking specifically about "gouging out the eye" and, frankly, that's pretty damned difficult to do, unless you're in a *Kill Bill* episode.
> 
> On the other hand, such a degree of damage is far from necessary for strikes to the eyes to be effective. Very little contact is required to cause significant amounts of pain, and the eyes are one of those areas that people tend to reflexively guard (often to the point of neglecting their defense of other areas). A flick of the fingers at the eyes will, with very little impact, take a lot of the fight right out of the vast majority of people.
> 
> Frankly, I've seen a lot more people with significant orbital fractures than globe injuries.



I agree completely.


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## bluewaveschool (Nov 27, 2012)

Not quite the same thing, but along the lines, we were taught basically a lead hand palm strike, with the meaty part of the hand under the thumb hitting the eye socket.  Not any permanent damage (unless you have a bruce lee 6 inch punch) but hurts like hell enough that the person hit puts the hand to cover their eye.  If you place that meaty part over your eye, you'll see that it fits in there quite nicely.


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 27, 2012)

bluewaveschool said:


> Not quite the same thing, but along the lines, we were taught basically a lead hand palm strike, with the meaty part of the hand under the thumb hitting the eye socket.  Not any permanent damage (unless you have a bruce lee 6 inch punch) but hurts like hell enough that the person hit puts the hand to cover their eye.  If you place that meaty part over your eye, you'll see that it fits in there quite nicely.



We call that a 'shote' which means heel palm strike.  Useful in lots of places, and for the reason you stated - it fits well.


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## DennisBreene (Nov 27, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Not exactly 'eye gouging' but...
> 
> To my way of thinking, the eyes are a valid target, but not a primary target in most cases.  As primates who are historically absolutely dependent upon vision for survival, it is deeply ingrained in our basic instincts to protect our eyes.  Most rapid hand movement towards the eyes, or even light contact to the eyes, causes an instant and almost always involuntary reaction.  The head jerks back, the hands come up, the eyes close, etc.
> 
> ...



If you scratch the cornea, which does require beating the blink reflex, the pain is severe and instantaneous.  Both eyes close reflexively and tear copiously, so vision is compromized for several minutes. I think multiple fingers increases the chance of a strike to at least one eye. The whip like attack imparts a large amount of energy into the globe, so even if you don't scratch the cornea, you are more likely to traumatize the globe with internal hemorrhage and disruption.


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## punisher73 (Nov 27, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I do not honestly know if the way I was taught to form the hand for a nukite strike is a specific part of Isshin-Ryu, or if it is simply specific to my dojo.  I will ask my Sensei.  No offense taken at the questions, quite legitimate.
> 
> To be clear, we do not have an 'eye raking' attack; I just mentioned that some martial arts do.  Not Isshin-Ryu to the best of my knowledge.
> 
> ...



Ok, thanks for the description. I understand what you are describing now.  At first, I was picturing this shuto formation that is taught in some styles and I had never seen it in IR before.


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## DennisBreene (Nov 27, 2012)

oftheherd1 said:


> Another one taught in the Hapkido I learned was for front bear hug defense with the arms free. You sudo strike the ribs as you step a little to the right rear, then move your right hand to the middle of the opponent's back to hold him, then strike/push up forcefully on his chin with the open palm of your left hand. Your fingers will fall roughly with two on each side of the opponent's nose, with the tips at the eyes, or just a little above. You push inward forcefully as you rake downward and attempt to fill your fingertips with as much eye/eyelid matter as possible. *Fight over, and DennisBreene doesn't like you.*
> 
> When in close, you may find other opportunities to make the same move against the eyes.



I guess I could be pursueded to get out of bed and come in if it was richous. Actually I'm retired now so it would be some other poor ophthalmologist on the hook.


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## DennisBreene (Nov 27, 2012)

bluewaveschool said:


> Not quite the same thing, but along the lines, we were taught basically a lead hand palm strike, with the meaty part of the hand under the thumb hitting the eye socket. * Not any permanent damage* (unless you have a bruce lee 6 inch punch) but hurts like hell enough that the person hit puts the hand to cover their eye.  If you place that meaty part over your eye, you'll see that it fits in there quite nicely.



I hate to come off as contrary but if you strike the eye in this fashion with enough force you can cause serious injury. It can result in blow out fracture of the orbit where the thin bone between the eye socket and the sinus breaks out.  This can trap orbital tissue and lead to double vision which can sometimes be permanent.  The force imparted also rapidly overpressures the globe, distorting it and rupturing intraocular structures. Common injuries are Hyphema (bleeding into the eye), Angle recession with subsequent glaucoma which is often unnoticed and can lead to blindness, and Retinal Detachment where the retina (the membrane lining the back of the eye with all of the visual receptors) is torn and comes off.  While surgically repairable in most cases, it can still result in permanent reduction in vision and blindness.  In short, there is no safe attack on the eye and if you do attack the eye it should be with the understanding that you risk maiming your assailant.  I would put it in the  category of strikes that are generally restricted to a fear of serious risk of injury as you may end up defending yourself for a civil suit.


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## Tony Dismukes (Nov 27, 2012)

kempodisciple said:


> Hell, a semi-trained martial artist wouldn't be able to do what he did. If my eyes started watering after getting hit in them, I don't think I would have the focus to finish without my vision. Very impressed, Tony!



This is just one example of why grappling with your eyes closed is an excellent exercise.  

I think one of the reasons I enjoy grappling more than striking is that I have a really strong blink reflex.  When I'm boxing against a skilled opponent it takes a real effort of will not to blink or flinch when the punches start coming for my face.  When I'm grappling, vision is secondary and I don't get intimidated, even against a tougher opponent.


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## oftheherd1 (Nov 27, 2012)

DennisBreene said:


> If you scratch the cornea, which does require beating the blink reflex, the pain is severe and instantaneous. Both eyes close reflexively and tear copiously, so vision is compromized for several minutes. I think multiple fingers increases the chance of a strike to at least one eye. The whip like attack imparts a large amount of energy into the globe, so even if you don't scratch the cornea, you are more likely to traumatize the globe with internal hemorrhage and disruption.



The way I was taught was as the neck is pushed back (painful in itself which is why we put one hand behind the back), one actually strikes forward with the fingers by a snapping of the wrist forwards and downwards into the eyes.


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## elder999 (Nov 27, 2012)

DennisBreene said:


> While surgically repairable in most cases, it can still result in permanent reduction in vision and blindness. In short, there is no safe attack on the eye and if you do attack the eye it should be with the understanding that you risk maiming your assailant. I would put it in the category of strikes that are generally restricted to a fear of serious risk of injury as you may end up defending yourself for a civil suit.



Oh, I guess I should leave those magazines at home when I carry my pistol, then? 



oftheherd1 said:


> The way I was taught was as the neck is pushed back (painful in itself which is why we put one hand behind the back), one actually strikes forward with the fingers by a snapping of the wrist forwards and downwards into the eyes.



The WWII combatives "chin-jab" was/is taught with this sort of follow through-the idea being that if the chin-jab itself doesn't knock him out, your forward drive through the assailant will put him on his butt, blinking......


So, the palm heel strike is followed with a gouge/rake of the eyes, but with all forward momentum that is intended to drive the assailant to the ground...

I miss Carl, sometimes........


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 27, 2012)

oftheherd1 said:


> The way I was taught was as the neck is pushed back (painful in itself which is why we put one hand behind the back), one actually strikes forward with the fingers by a snapping of the wrist forwards and downwards into the eyes.



I'd consider this an attack that's likely to cause a pretty fair bit of pain, a lot of tearing (both of which make it damned difficult to keep fighting) but unlikely to cause serious injury.

Unless you're trained in the Dreaded Dim Mak, or you're in the aforementioned *Kill Bill* movie, in which case the lens will seperate from the eye, exploding outwards, causing vitreous to spray out, coating every surface within 10 feet, and possibly becoming a mini-shuriken and lodging in the carotid of your next assailaint, killing him instantly....


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## DennisBreene (Nov 28, 2012)




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## Tez3 (Nov 28, 2012)

You know that looks like a mammogram right?


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## DennisBreene (Nov 28, 2012)

I hope not, because it requires a great deal of magnification to see what I just posted. I prefer to think it looks a bit like a pizza.

BTW; Are we the only inmates awake in this asylum?


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 28, 2012)

DennisBreene said:


> I hope not, because it requires a great deal of magnification to see what I just posted. I prefer to think it looks a bit like a pizza.
> 
> BTW; Are we the only inmates awake in this asylum?



So how much retina DO you put on your pizza?


Tez is in the UK, so it's reasonable for her to be awake right now. I work nights, which isn't exactly reasonable, but it is a reason...

What's your excuse?


I do like the picture, but do you really think you're likely to see a vitreous hemorrhage from the strike as described? The palmheel strike to the chin (batangsohn mokchigi) can have pretty heavy impact (which does not bode well for the the ENT who wishes to sleep through the night...) but with the palmheel on the chin, flicking the fingertips into the eyes isn't, I think, likely to cause that severe an injury. Possible? Sure, there are very few things I'd say are impossible. Hell, you can ski through a revolving door, if we postulate a large enough door and short enough skiis... But not really likely. The worst thing it's likely to cause is a corneal abrassion - painful, but rarely serious.


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## oftheherd1 (Nov 28, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> You know that looks like a mammogram right?



It does?  Forget that, I'm not a medical person and must learn to keep my thoughts to myself.


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## oftheherd1 (Nov 28, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> I'd consider this an attack that's likely to cause a pretty fair bit of pain, a lot of tearing (both of which make it damned difficult to keep fighting) but unlikely to cause serious injury.
> 
> Unless you're trained in the Dreaded Dim Mak, or you're in the aforementioned *Kill Bill* movie, *in which case the lens will seperate from the eye, exploding outwards, causing vitreous to spray out, coating every surface within 10 feet, and possibly becoming a mini-shuriken and lodging in the carotid of your next assailaint, killing him instantly....*



You know at the next secret society meeting you are going to have to accept the prescribed sanctions for disclosing that to the public! Right? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




As pointed out above by Elder and myself, the chin strike alone can cause a lot of pain and even injury. The eye strike depends on how well it can be delivered, but it can cause damage and/or excruciating pain. If the eye strike does no more than cause a lot of tearing, then you are correct that it puts your assailant at a disadvantage.


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## punisher73 (Nov 28, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> You know that looks like a mammogram right?



Maybe that's why my eyes are always drawn there.  They sense a kindred spirit  :lookie:


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## Tez3 (Nov 28, 2012)

LOL at the twists and turns of our, ok, my mind! 
Dennis, I posted this morning at 0730 when I came off nights. At my age mammograms worry me far more than eye injuries, eye injuries not pleasant but finding a lump in the breast is a whole new world of fear. Interestingly martial arts strikes on both areas are subject of debates.
I have to say I see more 'black eyes' from altercations in the street than in sparring or MMA fights. One of the worse offenders for eye injuries, I believe is squash, a game popular here, the ball, it seems unlike a tennis, cricket or baseball etc is small enough to actually hit the eyeball rather than the eye socket like other sports balls. 
I've always found that 'attackers' always guard their eyes and groins far more than any other area so it seems to me that strikes to vulnerable areas other than these are preferable. I do get rather peeved when the argument comes up, which it did in the original thread, that 'you can't practice eye gouges' is so often a put down of others styles and training methods ie 'your ............( insert style here) isn't real because you can't practice eye gouges/you can't do eye gouges in the cage. Eye gouges are held up to be the epitome of a 'hard' style, rather than that of someone who wants to survive an attack.


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 28, 2012)

oftheherd1 said:


> You know at the next secret society meeting you are going to have to accept the prescribed sanctions for disclosing that to the public! Right?



Oh crap. I'll wear my cup...




oftheherd1 said:


> As pointed out above by Elder and myself, the chin strike alone can cause a lot of pain and even injury.



Agreed. Absolutely. 



oftheherd1 said:


> The eye strike depends on how well it can be delivered, but it can cause damage



Not bloody likely, or at least, not bloody likely to cause serious injury. Corneal abrassions and even vitreal hemorrhages are not really serious injuries.



oftheherd1 said:


> and/or excruciating pain.



Absolutely. It's going to hurt like hell.



oftheherd1 said:


> If the eye strike does no more than cause a lot of tearing, then you are correct that it puts your assailant at a disadvantage.



And that, when you get down to it, is the purpose of this sort of attack.


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## DennisBreene (Nov 28, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> LOL at the twists and turns of our, ok, my mind!
> Dennis, I posted this morning at 0730 when I came off nights. At my age mammograms worry me far more than eye injuries, eye injuries not pleasant but finding a lump in the breast is a whole new world of fear. Interestingly martial arts strikes on both areas are subject of debates.
> I have to say I see more 'black eyes' from altercations in the street than in sparring or MMA fights. One of the worse offenders for eye injuries, I believe is squash, a game popular here, the ball, it seems unlike a tennis, cricket or baseball etc is small enough to actually hit the eyeball rather than the eye socket like other sports balls.
> I've always found that 'attackers' always guard their eyes and groins far more than any other area so it seems to me that strikes to vulnerable areas other than these are preferable. I do get rather peeved when the argument comes up, which it did in the original thread, that 'you can't practice eye gouges' is so often a put down of others styles and training methods ie 'your ............( insert style here) isn't real because you can't practice eye gouges/you can't do eye gouges in the cage. Eye gouges are held up to be the epitome of a 'hard' style, rather than that of someone who wants to survive an attack.



Wow, I'll try to deal with the last few comments in one  response.  For all of you who think it's a mammogram-keep your eyes up! A bunch of horney goats on this site. I prefer my pizza without retina, and I particularly don't like it served up to me on the out side of an eye from a penetrating injury or a rupture.  That eye is gone and basically has to come out.

I agree that the palm heel combo to the eyes is unlikely to have a great deal of velocity when the fingers hit the eye, so the effect is more likely a short term painful injury that gives you an opening.  I believe another strike described in the thread  was a palm strike to the eye with the fleshy portion of the thumb side (the thenar eminence) could be dangerous because the force can be directed directly into the orbit.  Which brings me to a major point! The eye is well protected by the orbital rim (the bony part) so it takes a very direct blow to direct force into the globe itself.  Having said that, it happens often enough to keep guys like me busy. Whether it's from a squash ball or a fist, it's the mechanism of injury that I concentrate on.  The vast majority of serious globe injuries come from high velocity impact directly into the globe either by an object small enough to get past the orbital rim (fingers) or deformable enough to flex and push through the rim (squash ball, palm, or portion of a fist). The results can be devastating. The photo shows, hemorrhage, shockwave damage to the retina, infarction (like heart attack infarction), and a circular rupture of the layers under the retinal responsible for a large portion of its blood supply.  That eye will never see normally again. I have seen globes ruptured, the optic nerve completely torn away from the globe and expulsive hemorhhages (the vascular choroid layer hemorrhages so much that the entire eye contents are expelled from a rupture) all from blunt trauma, including punches and fingers to the eye.

In fact, the majority of injuries are fractures of the boney rim, or bruises to the eyelids (the proverbial shiner). But I have plenty of photos of what can be found under that black eye if anyone is interested.

As for gouging.  I suspect that gouging with fingers is more likely to tear the eyelids and do relatively minor damage to the globe.  That would still slow your opponent down and ensure a trip to the ER in many cases.  You won't be pulling the eye out of the socket though. I suspect you would need the assist of some sort of sharp object.  It takes me about 40min to remove and eye with the correct instruments (but I'm trying to be neat so that I can reconstruct the socket for a prosthetic eye).

Now. Does that cover it?


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## Mz1 (Nov 28, 2012)

Eye gouging or eye jabbing are not big deals. Only suckers pays money to train these techniques.

Eye jabbing is merely a jab or a straight cross. Anyone who trains Boxing, MMA, etc. will be already be proficient at eye jabbing whenever they want to, by extending their fingers out instead of balling it into a fist.  Real fighters will train for speed, power, precision, etc. striking pads, bags and most importantly, fully resisting opponents during sparring....from light to hard sparring for KO's. Non-fighters can train for such too, but their sparring is usually limited to light contact. Therefore, who's going to be better at it eye jabbing? Someone who only play fight or someone who fights for real and often?

Personally, in a fight, I'd rather throw my entire fist at someone's face in hopes of having a better chance at hitting something rather than try to go for a pinpoint accuracy shot at an eyeball. If I miss the eye jab, then I just wasted a move while committing (thus in his range) and no one's going to just stand there and let me throw another attack one for free. A trained fighter, who's used to fists flying at his face all the time will just treat an eye jab as any other strike....and answer it. You can't just walk up to an experienced Boxer and poke him in the eye that easily...he's probably going to slip it and knock you out. Slipping 2 fingers is a lot easier than an entire fist. 

Eye gouging is even more ridiculous if considered to be something that needs training for. You don't need to train to gouge someone's eyeballs out, let alone pay money for such training. Kind of like needing someone to teach you how to bite in a fight.


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 28, 2012)

DennisBreene said:


> Wow, I'll try to deal with the last few comments in one  response.  For all of you who think it's a mammogram-keep your eyes up! A bunch of horney goats on this site. I prefer my pizza without retina, and I particularly don't like it served up to me on the out side of an eye from a penetrating injury or a rupture.  That eye is gone and basically has to come out.
> 
> I agree that the palm heel combo to the eyes is unlikely to have a great deal of velocity when the fingers hit the eye, so the effect is more likely a short term painful injury that gives you an opening.  I believe another strike described in the thread  was a palm strike to the eye with the fleshy portion of the thumb side (the thenar eminence) could be dangerous because the force can be directed directly into the orbit.  Which brings me to a major point! The eye is well protected by the orbital rim (the bony part) so it takes a very direct blow to direct force into the globe itself.  Having said that, it happens often enough to keep guys like me busy. Whether it's from a squash ball or a fist, it's the mechanism of injury that I concentrate on.  The vast majority of serious globe injuries come from high velocity impact directly into the globe either by an object small enough to get past the orbital rim (fingers) or deformable enough to flex and push through the rim (squash ball, palm, or portion of a fist). The results can be devastating. The photo shows, hemorrhage, shockwave damage to the retina, infarction (like heart attack infarction), and a circular rupture of the layers under the retinal responsible for a large portion of its blood supply.  That eye will never see normally again. I have seen globes ruptured, the optic nerve completely torn away from the globe and expulsive hemorhhages (the vascular choroid layer hemorrhages so much that the entire eye contents are expelled from a rupture) all from blunt trauma, including punches and fingers to the eye.
> 
> ...



Mostly, although I think your post makes these injuries seem more common than they really are.

Our trauma center is pretty busy. Calling facial trauma or optho for followup on orbital injuries is fairly common. Call optho for globe injuries? Happens, but it ain't going to keep anybody busy. Hyphemas, vitreal hemorrhage, corneal abrassions... yes, there's follow up, but the VAST majority heal without any specific treatment other than things like pain meds and prophylactic antibiotics.
Be honest... what keeps opthomology busy is things like cataracts and vision correction. 

Don't take any of this to mean I don't think attacks to the eyes are not worthwhile. I do. I just have to chuckle when someone seems to think they're going to pluck out someones eye.


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## DennisBreene (Nov 28, 2012)

In the grand scheme of things you are correct.  Obviously I see globe trauma as it gets funnelled to me and that skews the relative perception. In fact, as a navy ophthalmologist in a large military area, we averaged about one open globe a month and considerably more cases of blunt trauma that didn't result in rupture.  What you did not see in the ER is the long term consequences of those cases with hemorrage etc. It's not so simple when they get to us and often the injuries had serious impact on the patients sight.  So while I see your point, I stand by my personal assessment that these are serious injuries and best avoided if possible. As far as applications in a SD setting, I think the discussion in general was spot on as to the utility and limitations of attacking the eyes.
Thanks


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## seasoned (Nov 28, 2012)

I don't think the OP was referring to an actual eye removal, may be wrong. I would think there would be a bit of over kill there. All *I *really want to do is distract him with some blinding pain, so I can remove some teeth.  

"I was on a bike one time tooling down the road, when a *tiny little bug* decided to commit suicide in my eye. I was out of commission for the better part of 5 minutes."   

Now if a BIG guy has me on the ground and is on me, if I can grab something of his and pull him in close, I will at least give him a lobotomy with my thumb the hard way and leave him eye intact. 

I hope this helps.


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## DennisBreene (Nov 28, 2012)

seasoned said:


> I don't think the OP was referring to an actual eye removal, may be wrong. I would think there would be a bit of over kill there. All *I *really want to do is distract him with some blinding pain, so I can remove some teeth.
> 
> "I was on a bike one time tooling down the road, when a *tiny little bug* decided to commit suicide in my eye. I was out of commission for the better part of 5 minutes."
> 
> ...



Now you tell me!  All that work and I could have just said "be careful"


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## Aiki Lee (Nov 28, 2012)

I'm of the opinion that eye gouging should be used as a set up for something else or as a way to loosen up the attacker if you were grappling and needed to bail out and escape. I honestly don't think you even need to actually do any harm, the attacker just needs to feel like he has to protect his face. Same thing goes for attacking the groin as well. Everyone instinctively protects these areas regardless of training and experience so they are good targets for feints or as a 1st step for something else like a throw or a knock down strike.


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## jks9199 (Nov 28, 2012)

DennisBreene said:


> In the grand scheme of things you are correct.  Obviously I see globe trauma as it gets funnelled to me and that skews the relative perception. In fact, as a navy ophthalmologist in a large military area, we averaged about one open globe a month and considerably more cases of blunt trauma that didn't result in rupture.  What you did not see in the ER is the long term consequences of those cases with hemorrage etc. It's not so simple when they get to us and often the injuries had serious impact on the patients sight.  So while I see your point, I stand by my personal assessment that these are serious injuries and best avoided if possible. As far as applications in a SD setting, I think the discussion in general was spot on as to the utility and limitations of attacking the eyes.
> Thanks



Were they from fights or on-the-job accidents? 

I'd absolutely agree that many of these are significant injuries.  I'd certainly seek a maiming or aggravated malicious wounding charge -- but we're not seeing them from most fights, either.


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## DennisBreene (Nov 28, 2012)

jks9199 said:


> Were they from fights or on-the-job accidents?
> 
> I'd absolutely agree that many of these are significant injuries.  I'd certainly seek a maiming or aggravated malicious wounding charge -- but we're not seeing them from most fights, either.



They represent a multitude of injuries, but I'd say that probably 50% were fights.  The common denominator was the mechanism of injury.  These were almost all blunt trauma.  The external injury is  often less impressive than the internal damage which may not take effect for years.  Hopefully these people are evaluated at some point by an ophthalmologist.


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## Tez3 (Nov 29, 2012)

seasoned said:


> I don't think the OP was referring to an actual eye removal, may be wrong. I would think there would be a bit of over kill there. All *I *really want to do is distract him with some blinding pain, so I can remove some teeth.
> 
> "I was on a bike one time tooling down the road, when a *tiny little bug* decided to commit suicide in my eye. I was out of commission for the better part of 5 minutes."
> 
> ...



On the original thread that this is from the person who brought up eye gouges did mean the removal of the eyeball. The premise was that people who do karate aren't any good at SD because they can't train eye gouging.


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## WingChunIan (Nov 29, 2012)

I've joined this party a bit late but reading the posts is really interesting. I personally love eye strikes. In the main I would argue that they should be thrown from contact. The ability to generate large amounts of force from contact by thrusting the thumb or fingers into the eye requires training and is a staple of higher level training in Wing Chun. Jabbing at the eyes from distance can also be effective as long as it is done with a soft hand so that if you miss the eyes you don't break your fingers on the opponents forehead (or alternatively you can spend years conditioning your fingers). 
As for gouges in the grappling range again they are a favourite of mine. The human body is fantastically designed to protect itself and it requires a huge amount of concious effort for someone to move into more pain with the result that 99% of the time an opponent will naturally move away from the pain / potential damage of you trying to lever their eye out of the socket thus allowing you to obtain a more favourable position / land a telling strike.

Practising eye strikes and gouges is of course very difficult. The torso bags are great tools but getting your hand into the right position against a resisting opponent is also easy to practice as long as you remember to practice the finally delivery of the strike at another time.

As for the poster who claimed that evading punches is harder than finger jabs I suggest that they work with a friend that they trust, remove the gloves and then see what happens when you get into clinch range and the partner is tasked with trying to put a finger / thumb into their eye. Because of their target finger strikes require alot less power to be effective than punches and therefore can be smaller movements that are much harder to read. They aren't everyone's cup of tea and if you train to fight competitively then they wont / shouldn't be in your arsenal but they are highly effective. To say that if you can jab, cross etc you can finger strike shows a lack of understanding of how finger strikes are deployed and also defies habit. If you train to look for eye strikes and gouges at certain ranges it will instinctively ocurr to you to do so, if however you train to punch and only punch (ie a boxer) your instinct will be to punch and any notion of finger striking will be at best an afterthought.


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## oftheherd1 (Nov 29, 2012)

Mz1 said:


> Eye gouging or eye jabbing are not big deals. Only suckers pays money to train these techniques.
> 
> Eye jabbing is merely a jab or a straight cross. Anyone who trains Boxing, MMA, etc. will be already be proficient at eye jabbing whenever they want to, by extending their fingers out instead of balling it into a fist. Real fighters will train for speed, power, precision, etc. striking pads, bags and most importantly, fully resisting opponents during sparring....from light to hard sparring for KO's. Non-fighters can train for such too, but their sparring is usually limited to light contact. Therefore, who's going to be better at it eye jabbing? Someone who only play fight or someone who fights for real and often?
> 
> ...



Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.  And whatever their style is, they should learn it as well as possible.  But to discount another style's abilities can cause a rude awakening.


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## MJS (Nov 29, 2012)

WingChunIan said:


> To say that if you can jab, cross etc you can finger strike shows a lack of understanding of how finger strikes are deployed and also defies habit. If you train to look for eye strikes and gouges at certain ranges it will instinctively ocurr to you to do so, if however you train to punch and only punch (ie a boxer) your instinct will be to punch and any notion of finger striking will be at best an afterthought.



I was the one who made this comment.  My point was simply...some people make it sound like its impossible to target the eyes.  IMO, if its something that you train for, just like every other aspect of your art, then no, its not impossible.  Eye shots are big in Kenpo and the FMAs, 2 arts that I've done for quite some time.  I feel more than comfortable in throwing them.


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## Mz1 (Nov 29, 2012)

oftheherd1 said:


> Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.  And whatever their style is, they should learn it as well as possible.  But to discount another style's abilities can cause a rude awakening.



I don't buy into this SD marketing pitch that anyone needs to be taught and trained on how to stick their finger into someone's eye socket and gouge out the eyeball. Like biting, I already know how to do that.

While an eye jab, maybe...but it's just a straight striking technique.  And if you're going to commit by extending your arm out, why not just throw the full fist instead of a finger? It's like training a 540 Tornado Kick. Sure it can work, but is it a good idea to try it in a real fight?


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## Bigdavid5.0 (Nov 29, 2012)

seasoned said:


> I don't think the OP was referring to an actual eye removal, may be wrong. I would think there would be a bit of over kill there. All *I *really want to do is distract him with some blinding pain, so I can remove some teeth.
> 
> "I was on a bike one time tooling down the road, when a *tiny little bug* decided to commit suicide in my eye. I was out of commission for the better part of 5 minutes."
> 
> ...


 Lobotomy,ILMAO.If my life is in danger, I'm going to do some damage.On the street ,there are no rules.I knew of a guy who went to jail.Everyone bullied him.One inmate tried to beat him up until he got his nose bitten off.The defender swallowed the nose.Everyone stayed clear of him after that.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 29, 2012)

seasoned said:


> I don't think the OP was referring to an actual eye removal, may be wrong. I would think there would be a bit of over kill there. All *I *really want to do is distract him with some blinding pain, so I can remove some teeth.


This has already been answered, but as the OP i feel like I should answer it a bit more fully. The original thread was talking about removal of the eyes. This thread was meant to be aimed more specifically towards any sort of eye attack (although removal is a big part of that). 
Also, I personally am not a fan of actually trying to remove the eye, however the eyes and throat are my favorite targets XD


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 29, 2012)

Mz1 said:


> I don't buy into this SD marketing pitch that anyone needs to be taught and trained on how to stick their finger into someone's eye socket and gouge out the eyeball. Like biting, I already know how to do that.


We've already had a discussion on your opinion of MMA, so lets leave it out of this thread please. We all know each others standpoints by now, and none of them are going to change.



> While an eye jab, maybe...but it's just a straight striking technique.  And if you're going to commit by extending your arm out, why not just throw the full fist instead of a finger? It's like training a 540 Tornado Kick. Sure it can work, but is it a good idea to try it in a real fight?


A few reasons for it. 
1:Without gloves on, throwing a closed fist to the face is going to hurt your hand, something you dont need to do. 
2:*IF* you have the acccuracy, it can be more painful than another shot, and a good set up. How many times out of a hundred are you able to set something up based off a jab? probably about 70/80. How many times out of a hundred can you set up something based on an eye jab? close to 100
So yes, it can work and is a good idea to try in a fight (although I would never throw that tornado kick in a fight XD)


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## elder999 (Nov 29, 2012)

Mz1 said:


> A trained fighter, who's used to fists flying at his face all the time will just treat an eye jab as any other strike....and answer it. You can't just walk up to an experienced Boxer and poke him in the eye that easily...he's probably going to slip it and knock you out. .



Meh. I guess that's why boxers never get knocked out....

Maybe you weren't born yet, but there was a movement a few years ago to use thumbless gloves in professional boxing, because boxers thumb gouge each other, from time to time, even though it's against the rules. I think it was right around the time media darling Ray Leonard was diagnosed with a detached retina that he claims was from a thumb in his first fight against Tommy Hearns(?)

And if your boxing coach didn't teach you about thumb gouging, and how to do it and get away with it without hurting yourself, you probably have the wrong coach......or he's not much older......:lfao:


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## punisher73 (Nov 30, 2012)

Mz1 said:


> Eye gouging or eye jabbing are not big deals. Only suckers pays money to train these techniques.
> 
> Eye jabbing is merely a jab or a straight cross. Anyone who trains Boxing, MMA, etc. will be already be proficient at eye jabbing whenever they want to, by extending their fingers out instead of balling it into a fist.  Real fighters will train for speed, power, precision, etc. striking pads, bags and most importantly, fully resisting opponents during sparring....from light to hard sparring for KO's. Non-fighters can train for such too, but their sparring is usually limited to light contact. Therefore, who's going to be better at it eye jabbing? Someone who only play fight or someone who fights for real and often?
> 
> ...



Cuz we all know that pro boxers are the epitome of self-defense skills outside of the ring...





It's just another tool for the job in your toolbox that has a time and place for the trained fighter.  As to biting, there is a right way and a wrong way to do it.  If you do it wrong, you are just going to piss off the person.


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## Mz1 (Dec 2, 2012)

kempodisciple said:


> We've already had a discussion on your opinion of MMA, so lets leave it out of this thread please. We all know each others standpoints by now, and none of them are going to change.



Well the OP's question can also expand to....if you're only going to play-fight in your training, then wouldn't you end up only play fighting in a real fight and just tap your attacker?  Or does this argument only allowed to be used against MMA, implying that since MMA fighters trained to fight under rules, they must also be programed to fight with such rules in the streets and can't possibly do anything illegal?



> A few reasons for it.
> 1:Without gloves on, throwing a closed fist to the face is going to hurt your hand, something you dont need to do.



Well I've done it and my hand was fine. It's called experience. I know when to throw full power (w/boxing gloves) and when not to throw full power (w/o gloves). And we don't even throw close to full power during training with MMA gloves. Once you're an experienced fighter, you're always careful about injuries.



> 2:*IF* you have the acccuracy, it can be more painful than another shot, and a good set up. How many times out of a hundred are you able to set something up based off a jab? probably about 70/80. How many times out of a hundred can you set up something based on an eye jab? close to 100



How many times have you eyepoked someone for real before? I throw at least 30 jabs per round. I'm pretty sure I'm good at it.



> So yes, it can work and is a good idea to try in a fight (although I would never throw that tornado kick in a fight XD)



I don't theory fight.


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## Aiki Lee (Dec 2, 2012)

You do not need to train how to poke someone in the eye, but you should train on when you should do it and why.


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## Mz1 (Dec 2, 2012)

elder999 said:


> Meh. I guess that's why boxers never get knocked out....



meh, they get KO'ed by equally experienced fighters in the ring and not usually from slobs nor masters of play fighting.



> Maybe you weren't born yet, but there was a movement a few years ago to use thumbless gloves in professional boxing, because boxers thumb gouge each other, from time to time, even though it's against the rules. I think it was right around the time media darling Ray Leonard was diagnosed with a detached retina that he claims was from a thumb in his first fight against Tommy Hearns(?)



I don't remember that Old-timer, but I don't doubt eye gouging works. Especially for oldguys. But don't try to compare the speed, power and precision of a Pro Boxer with that of a play-fighter. Wonder who's going to be faster, more powerful and more precise?



> And if your boxing coach didn't teach you about thumb gouging, and how to do it and get away with it without hurting yourself, you probably have the wrong coach......or he's not much older......:lfao:



Sorry but I would be a really big sucker if I need to pay someone to teach me how to eyegouge. Do you pay for tactical biting lessons too? With or without dentures?


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## Mz1 (Dec 2, 2012)

punisher73 said:


> Cuz we all know that pro boxers are the epitome of self-defense skills outside of the ring...



My money's on them vs. a Pretend-Fighter.



> It's just another tool for the job in your toolbox that has a time and place for the trained fighter.  As to biting, there is a right way and a wrong way to do it.  If you do it wrong, you are just going to piss off the person.



What are the wrong ways to bite someone?


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## Mz1 (Dec 2, 2012)

Himura Kenshin said:


> You do not need to train how to poke someone in the eye, but you should train on when you should do it and why.



And the guy teaching eye poking class, is he trained to tell the future to know how everything plays out?  _Everybody_ has a _plan until they get punched in the face_.


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## Aiki Lee (Dec 3, 2012)

Mz1 said:


> And the guy teaching eye poking class, is he trained to tell the future to know how everything plays out?  &#8220;_Everybody_ has a _plan until they get punched in the face_.&#8221;



There is no "eye poking class". The point I was making was that you don't need much instruction on how to jam your thumb into someone's eyes, but it is important to bring it up in training. You need to look at the tactical approach of attacking the eyes. What does it do to a person? How would someone respond to that? That's why it is a set up for something else. You need to teach what you are setting up with an attack to the eyes, more than how to physically strike the eyes themselves.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 3, 2012)

Mz1 said:


> Well the OP's question can also expand to....if you're only going to play-fight in your training, then wouldn't you end up only play fighting in a real fight and just tap your attacker?  Or does this argument only allowed to be used against MMA, implying that since MMA fighters trained to fight under rules, they must also be programed to fight with such rules in the streets and can't possibly do anything illegal?


As the OP, I can assure you that's not what I meant with my post.



> Well I've done it and my hand was fine. It's called experience. I know when to throw full power (w/boxing gloves) and when not to throw full power (w/o gloves). And we don't even throw close to full power during training with MMA gloves. Once you're an experienced fighter, you're always careful about injuries.


Sooo you cant throw a punch at full power without hurting your hand? Unlike, say a palm strike, or an eye jab, or a strike to the throat? Got it, ill just stick to what I can throw with "100% power" (although to be honest, I'm not sure how your measuring it..do you have something that measures the amount of force put into an object, and remember the feeling of each amount? Im assuming you do considering how often you mention % of power in your posts).


> How many times have you eyepoked someone for real before? I throw at least 30 jabs per round. I'm pretty sure I'm good at it.


Not that many, but i have thrown them close to a persons eyes many times..know I can do it 


> I don't theory fight.


How is this comment relevant? I just stated that the move works, and agreed that a different move doesnt. Know 'theory fighting' going on there.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 3, 2012)

Mz1 said:


> What are the wrong ways to bite someone?


Off the top of my head, biting someone in an area of the body where it wont do much (ie:the chest), or going to bite them in a position where they can do more damage to you then you can to them (when they can knee you as you move your head, or when both people are facing each other), or biting them when it would be more beneficial for you to do something else, such as 'eyepoking' them


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 4, 2012)

Mz1 said:


> &#8220;_Everybody_ has a _plan until they get punched in the face_.&#8221;


Just curious, were you referring to the Tyson quote here? Because the actual quote is "Everyone has a plan 'till they get punched in the mouth." 
Funny, seems like I know more about the pro boxer you keep referencing then you do ;P

Since knowing you, you won't believe that unless I provide actual proof for you, here it is:
http://howardgivner.com/articles/everyone-has-a-plan-until-they-get-punched-in-the-mouth
http://throatchopuniversity.wordpre...as-a-plan-till-they-get-punched-in-the-mouth/

If that wasn't what you were referring to with the blue, quoted words, ignore this post.


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## Tez3 (Dec 4, 2012)

We had a boxing match here this weekend where a cricketer has just beaten a boxer. Boxer started well but was beaten in the end. Lots of arguments whether he should have done it or not and whether it was good for boxing or not but the fact remains ... a cricketer beat an unbeaten pro boxer lol.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...intoff-wins-his-first-professional-fight.html


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## punisher73 (Dec 5, 2012)

Mz1 said:


> My money's on them vs. a Pretend-Fighter.
> 
> 
> 
> What are the wrong ways to bite someone?



Humans are not pure carnivore such as a lion/tiger etc.  Our teeth are not designed to just bite and tear flesh.  If you just open up and clamp your mouth on something, you may cause pain but you are not going to get much panic reaction from it.  The purpose of biting is to cause panic in the other person and their instinct is to just get away.  The time I was bitten in a fight, the person didn't know what they were doing and just clamped on and down, and it didn't even break the skin.  Just an annoyance and made me want to hurt them more.


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## chinto (Dec 5, 2012)

can you train to do an eye gouge, yes, do they work, yes and for the street are effective.


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## Mz1 (Dec 6, 2012)

Himura Kenshin said:


> There is no "eye poking class". The point I was making was that you don't need much instruction on how to jam your thumb into someone's eyes, but it is important to bring it up in training. You need to look at the tactical approach of attacking the eyes. What does it do to a person? How would someone respond to that? That's why it is a set up for something else. You need to teach what you are setting up with an attack to the eyes, more than how to physically strike the eyes themselves.



This sounds like what schools do in order to milk the most money out of their students by creating some elaborate diagram on how to poke someone in the eye.


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## Mz1 (Dec 6, 2012)

kempodisciple said:


> Sooo you cant throw a punch at full power without hurting your hand? Unlike, say a palm strike, or an eye jab, or a strike to the throat? Got it, ill just stick to what I can throw with "100% power"



I bet I can still knock you out or break your nose with a less than full power punch that won't break my hand. But w/o gloves, I usually only throw elbows and knees mostly with just jabs to set them up.



> (although to be honest, I'm not sure how your measuring it..do you have something that measures the amount of force put into an object, and remember the feeling of each amount? Im assuming you do considering how often you mention % of power in your posts).



Obviously it's not exact. But it's mostly due to experience. I spar at various power levels, with varying rule sets, etc. every week, ranging from light to full power, while you don't. 



> but i have thrown them close to a persons eyes many times..know I can do it



I thought you said that you'd fight the way you train, therefore, in a real fight on the street....wouldn't you throw them close to a person's eyes like you do in training?

Like here, where these Karatekas are so used to tap sparring, that they start doing the same while the Boxers are trying to KO them.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 6, 2012)

Mz1 said:


> Like here, where these Karatekas are so used to tap sparring, that they start doing the same while the Boxers are trying to KO them.


Pretty sure you've linked this video, or a similar one, before, so ill respond the same way i believe was responded then...Do you know the situation of this fight? What were the rules being used. How much experience did the boxers have versus how much experience did the karetekas have? For the first question, since most of the boxers punches were light except for a few, im assuming that it was supposed to be light fighting, and the boxer put in the harder punches through either a lack of self control or to be an a$$. For the second one, one of them obviously didn't have a lot, since he was a white belt, and it's perfectly possible the other one was too. Finally, if the rules were that they were supposed to spar full contact/hard contact, then I'm going to assume the karetekas, through personal experience or the system, haven't fought full contact before. That is just as bad, maybe worse, as always doing full contact IMO, but there are times when you cant/shouldnt do that (when hitting vitals, or versus beginners).


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## Mz1 (Dec 6, 2012)

kempodisciple said:


> Off the top of my head, biting someone in an area of the body where it wont do much (ie:the chest), or going to bite them in a position where they can do more damage to you then you can to them (when they can knee you as you move your head, or when both people are facing each other), or biting them when it would be more beneficial for you to do something else, such as 'eyepoking' them



I guess this is where the TMA and SD people are heading, now that all the young blood are switching or flocking to MMA right?  Tactical biting 101 and making it sound like every situation will be a life or death one.


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## Mz1 (Dec 6, 2012)

kempodisciple said:


> Just curious, were you referring to the Tyson quote here? Because the actual quote is "Everyone has a plan 'till they get punched in the mouth."
> Funny, seems like I know more about the pro boxer you keep referencing then you do ;P



Yea, at least we found something that you're good at.



> Since knowing you, you won't believe that unless I provide actual proof for you, here it is:
> http://howardgivner.com/articles/everyone-has-a-plan-until-they-get-punched-in-the-mouth
> http://throatchopuniversity.wordpre...as-a-plan-till-they-get-punched-in-the-mouth/
> 
> If that wasn't what you were referring to with the blue, quoted words, ignore this post.




Thanks.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 6, 2012)

Mz1 said:


> I guess this is where the TMA and SD people are heading, now that all the young blood are switching or flocking to MMA right?  Tactical biting 101 and making it sound like every situation will be a life or death one.


Im a bit confused by this. I never said that every situation is a life or death one, nor do I normally go into when it would be a good or bad time to bite someone..not personally my thing, and not part of my schools curriculum. Just answering your question about when it would be a bad idea to bite someone. (also, I'm only 19 so wouldn't I still be considered young blood?)


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 6, 2012)

Mz1 said:


> Yea, at least we found something that you're good at.


What do you mean by that? How would you know what I am or am not good at?



> Thanks.


You're welcome.


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## Mz1 (Dec 6, 2012)

punisher73 said:


> Humans are not pure carnivore such as a lion/tiger etc.  Our teeth are not designed to just bite and tear flesh.  If you just open up and clamp your mouth on something, you may cause pain but you are not going to get much panic reaction from it.  The purpose of biting is to cause panic in the other person and their instinct is to just get away.  The time I was bitten in a fight, the person didn't know what they were doing and just clamped on and down, and it didn't even break the skin.  Just an annoyance and made me want to hurt them more.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vL24yv5bJaA&feature=plcp


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## jks9199 (Dec 6, 2012)

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please keep the discussion polite and respectful.

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Asst. Administrator


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## elder999 (Dec 6, 2012)

Mz1 said:


> meh, they get KO'ed by equally experienced fighters in the ring and not usually from slobs nor masters of play fighting.



The point being that they do get KO'ed: they clearly didn't slip the punch that knocked them out. They might not slip the eyepoke-in fact, as I pointed out, boxers get thumbed in the eye from time to time, in the boxing ring.

As for "equally experienced," every one of the men Mike Tyson knocked out in his run up to the championship had far, far more experience than he did, both as amateurs and professionals. Of course, some of those "real fighter, Pro Boxer, superior power, speed and precision" guys were what's commonly referred to as 'tomato cans," but some of them were pretty fair boxers. 

Of course, it was a "tomato can" named Buster Douglas who laid Tyson low the first time....:lol:




Mz1 said:


> I don't remember that Old-timer, but I don't doubt eye gouging works. Especially for oldguys. But don't try to compare the speed, power and precision of a Pro Boxer with that of a play-fighter. Wonder who's going to be faster, more powerful and more precise?



The one who is faster, more powerful and more precise is going to be faster, more powerful and more precise-doesn't necessarily have to be the "Pro Boxer," and doesn't necessarily mean they'll be the winner-I've beaten lots of people in contests like boxing who were faster or more powerful than I was-and certainly more precise.

In any case, I certainly meant no disrespect by pointing out that you might not be old enough to remember the whole "thumbless gloves" movement, short-lived as it was (thumbless gloves *suck*!)-the Hearns-Leonard fight, and Sugar Ray's first retirement both took place in 1981. My son was born in 1983, and he's now a grown, married man of nearly 30, who obviously can't remember that fight taking place, or the subsequent events. I, btw, was 21, and still boxing and kickboxing myself......

USA Boxing, of course, the governing body for amateur boxing and Olympic style in the U.S., mandates the use of thumbless gloves, nowadays-or those gloves with the thumb stitched onto the main body of the glove, which seems to be what most guys use. 

What kind of gloves do you use?



Mz1 said:


> Sorry but I would be a really big sucker if I need to pay someone to teach me how to eyegouge. Do you pay for tactical biting lessons too? With or without dentures?



No-it's axiomatic-if it's worth doing, it's worth learning to do correctly and practicing for. You know how to speak, without stuttering or lisping, I'm assuming, but if you were going to give a speech, you'd polish the language and practice it. It's really the same for anything.

Oh, "dentures." See, there ya go-I haven't been disrespectful of you at all-merely as derisive as I normally am to everyone. Of course, I also still have _almost_ couple of dozen teeth in my mouth, for now....:lfao:


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## punisher73 (Dec 7, 2012)

Mz1 said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vL24yv5bJaA&feature=plcp



Yep, didn't bite correctly to cause a panic reaction.  Once again you are negating things you have no proper training on or understanding of.  That's ok, just realize that there is more out there than "boxing" for effective tools to use.


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## Aiki Lee (Dec 7, 2012)

Mz1 said:


> This sounds like what schools do in order to milk the most money out of their students by creating some elaborate diagram on how to poke someone in the eye.



This is your response when someone advocates a tactical approach? Have you ever used strategy before?


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## Aiki Lee (Dec 7, 2012)

Mz1 said:


> I guess this is where the TMA and SD people are heading, now that all the young blood are switching or flocking to MMA right?  Tactical biting 101 and making it sound like every situation will be a life or death one.



My school is traditional and has around 160 students. The local MMA gym has 20. So no, not everyone is flocking to MMA gyms. When is the last time you even set foot in a traditional school?


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## Tez3 (Dec 7, 2012)

Himura Kenshin said:


> My school is traditional and has around 160 students. The local MMA gym has 20. So no, not everyone is flocking to MMA gyms. When is the last time you even set foot in a traditional school?



and those that do go to MMA gyms aren't all the 'young ones', it has something for everyone if that's what they want to do.


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## Aiki Lee (Dec 7, 2012)

Exactly. I'm not knocking MMA at all. People join different gyms or dojo for different reasons.


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## Mz1 (Dec 7, 2012)

kempodisciple said:


> Do you know the situation of this fight?  What were the rules being used.


 
I don't, but what other rules in a standup fight are there when 2 styles are pitted against one another with a camera there? Just no biting, no eye gouging nor other anti-rape techniques.  And don't get knocked down nor KTFO.



> How much experience did the boxers have versus how much experience did the karetekas have?



Who knows, that could be 5 months of Boxing right there, vs. 5 years of Karate or vice versa. What's obvious though is that the Boxers train and spar often and for full KO's (which is standard for most Boxing gyms) while the Karate practices a lot of forms and pretend-fight only. 



> For the first question, since most of the boxers punches were light except for a few, im assuming that it was supposed to be light fighting, and the boxer put in the harder punches through either a lack of self control or to be an a$$.



No, the Boxer cracked him hard with a lead hook at the 15sec mark.  The first 14 seconds was the feeling out process where he wasn't committing fully yet until he figured out the Karateka's timing, tendencies, etc. This is standard for most experienced fighters. He was jabbing and even missed with the 1st lead hook. 

And why would a fight be "LIGHT"? You're out to knock the other guy out. The camera, count and the style vs. style should be a good indication that this was a lot more serious than friendly, light sparring.



> For the second one, one of them obviously didn't have a lot, since he was a white belt, and it's perfectly possible the other one was too.



The setting looked more like a Boxing gym than a Karate dojo. It's customary and a show of respect for visiting Karatekas to wear WHITE belts when visiting other dojos. Also, most competitors like to downplay their rank. I know I do. 

Regardless, it's a fight. No one forced these Karatekas to fight. All 3 of them kept going with their tap-tap fighting while getting cracked in the head over and over.  This is what sparring light all the time and never for KO's will get you.



> Finally, if the rules were that they were supposed to spar full contact/hard contact, then I'm going to assume the karetekas, through personal experience or the system, haven't fought full contact before.





> That is just as bad, maybe worse, as always doing full contact IMO,



No Boxing gyms nor fighting gyms nor MMA "always" go "full contact". This is almost impossible. All the noobs and women would get KTFO every class, go to work with black eyes and concussions....and cancel their membership. The gym will go out of business. 

Boxers goes for KO's most often, but not everyone is forced to spar. Some gyms have designated, sparring time or sparring class while the regular class is more on everything else but no sparring.



> but there are times when you cant/shouldnt do that (when hitting vitals, or versus beginners).



Well we don't hit the back of the head, spine, kidneys, nutsack and such.  Kidneys, chest, ribs, face, temple, etc. are fine.  Sometimes throats are hit, but they don't land well to do that much damage. Sometimes I do crack beginners in my gym who goes crazy with the power, to get them to calm down.

But this video is a fight between schools of 2 different styles. In a fight, I'm going to try to hurt my opponent and knock him out. He shouldn't be stepping up if he's a noob.

After getting punched that hard for the first time, you'd think the Karatekas would start fighting back, hard. They didn't. The 2nd and especially the 3rd Karateka, had all that time to see that the Boxer were throwing full punches, yet they can't break out of their tap-tap fighting style.


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## Mz1 (Dec 7, 2012)

elder999 said:


> The point being that they do get KO'ed: they clearly didn't slip the punch that knocked them out. They might not slip the eyepoke-in fact, as I pointed out, boxers get thumbed in the eye from time to time, in the boxing ring.



You just discovered that Boxers do get KO'ed and that slipping is not 100% effective at all times?  :lol:



> The one who is faster, more powerful and more precise is going to be faster, more powerful and more precise-doesn't necessarily have to be the "Pro Boxer," and doesn't necessarily mean they'll be the winner-I've beaten lots of people in contests like boxing who were faster or more powerful than I was-and certainly more precise.



I said, Pro fighter vs. Play-fighter. 



> Oh, "dentures." See, there ya go-I haven't been disrespectful of you at all-merely as derisive as I normally am to everyone. Of course, I also still have _almost_ couple of dozen teeth in my mouth, for now....:lfao:



I'm just playing too 'bro. Can I call you 'bro btw?  Reason I asked is b/c someone went all psycho on here when I called them homey.


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## Mz1 (Dec 7, 2012)

punisher73 said:


> Yep, didn't bite correctly to cause a panic reaction.  Once again you are negating things you have no proper training on or understanding of.  That's ok, just realize that there is more out there than "boxing" for effective tools to use.



Haha, are you serious? The fatguy bit off a piece of his ear! Adrenaline is a hell of a drug.

And no, I'm still not going to pay someone money to teach me how to bite another person.


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## Mz1 (Dec 7, 2012)

Himura Kenshin said:


> My school is traditional and has around 160 students. The local MMA gym has 20. So no, not everyone is flocking to MMA gyms. When is the last time you even set foot in a traditional school?



Ok you got me on a technicality where I should have stated, most of the younger crowd instead of implying all. It's like filing court documents in here.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 7, 2012)

Im not going to use the quote function for this one, since my overall response can be narrowed down to a few statements, but this is in reply to Mz1's reply to my reply lol
 1: You seem to be making a lot of assumptions about the rules of the fight, how the fight came about, and the rankings of the individuals (yes, I was doing the same thing, but my point here is that neither of us know the full situation, so an argument about that will go nowhere)
2: I didn't say that always fighting full-contact is a thing, I just said that never fighting full-contact, or at least close, is worse than always doing it. I've heard at least one school that does only full contact once the fighters have enough experience, and many schools that do the opposite, and I approve of neither (for the most part). 
3: I completely agree...regardless of whether or not the fight was supposed to be a light, friendly match from one style to another, when the karetekas saw the boxers were punching hard, they should have responded in kind. The fact that they didn't, despite my statement #1, leads me to believe that either they really were white belts, or that their school is one of the "no full or semi-contact sparring"/"only point sparring" schools.
4:You still ignored the question about "Yea, at least we found something that you're good at.". How would you know what I am or am not good at/what is it that you think I'm not good at?


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## Aiki Lee (Dec 7, 2012)

Mz1 said:


> Ok you got me on a technicality where I should have stated, most of the younger crowd instead of implying all. It's like filing court documents in here.



I didn't get you on a technicality. I got you period. Your statement is false.


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## Aiki Lee (Dec 7, 2012)

Mz1 said:


> Haha, are you serious? The fatguy bit off a piece of his ear! Adrenaline is a hell of a drug.



OK. This, I agree with. Adrenaline will definitely negate the experience of pain to where pain reactions may not be that effective. But what I am talking about is what does a person do _after_ he bites or eye gouges someone? On their own, they may not be enough to stop a committed attacker. They must be used as a set up for something else. You teach eye gouging or the like so you can teach what to do right after that. It gives people a reference point as they will instinctively bite or scratch when in desperation. Practicing such things _and their follow ups_ in the dojo will make you more likely to recall those movements through muscle memory if you ever find yourself in that situation for real.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 7, 2012)

Mz1 said:


> Ok you got me on a technicality where I should have stated, most of the younger crowd instead of implying all. It's like filing court documents in here.



You haven't actually provided any reason for anybody to believe that "most" is any more accurate than your earlier (false) claim.


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## Mz1 (Dec 8, 2012)

Himura Kenshin said:


> I didn't get you on a technicality. I got you period. Your statement is false.



yea the internet is serious business.


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## Mz1 (Dec 8, 2012)

Himura Kenshin said:


> OK. This, I agree with. Adrenaline will definitely negate the experience of pain to where pain reactions may not be that effective. But what I am talking about is what does a person do _after_ he bites or eye gouges someone? On their own, they may not be enough to stop a committed attacker. They must be used as a set up for something else. You teach eye gouging or the like so you can teach what to do right after that. It gives people a reference point as they will instinctively bite or scratch when in desperation. Practicing such things _and their follow ups_ in the dojo will make you more likely to recall those movements through muscle memory if you ever find yourself in that situation for real.



No thanks, I'll just stick to kneeing and elbowing my opponents in the face, which I'm already good at and have done it in real fights in the cage and in the street.


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## Tez3 (Dec 8, 2012)

Mz1 said:


> No thanks, I'll just stick to kneeing and elbowing my opponents in the face, which I'm already good at and have done it in real fights in the cage and in the street.




Jolly good.


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## Aiki Lee (Dec 8, 2012)

Mz1 said:


> No thanks, I'll just stick to kneeing and elbowing my opponents in the face, which I'm already good at and have done it in real fights in the cage and in the street.



Ok. You do that then.


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## Mz1 (Dec 9, 2012)

Himura Kenshin said:


> Ok. You do that then.



Thanks, I certainly need advice from you.


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## jks9199 (Dec 9, 2012)

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If you're unsure -- Yes, I mean you.  Drop the dog piling.  Dispute the posts, not the posters.  Drop the exchange of shots and snipes.  If you feel something may violate the Rules -- hit the RTM button and DO NOT reply to the post.  Otherwise... the chips will fall where they may.

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## elder999 (Dec 9, 2012)

Mz1 said:


> You just discovered that Boxers do get KO'ed and that slipping is not 100% effective at all times?



Well, it's as I said then, yes? If slipping isn't effective 100% of the time, then boxers will get poked in the eye, especially by someone who has trained to do so.



Mz1 said:


> No thanks, I'll just stick to kneeing and elbowing my opponents in the face,



How about if your opponent is in a phone booth? What if you're carjacked? What if attacked while sitting down somewhere else? Knees and elbows are all fine and dandy, if the situation is appropriate.....



Mz1 said:


> which I'm already good at and have done it in real fights in the cage and in the street.



Yes, you've made it clear that you think as much. To my mind, though, I'd been in a lot of fights, but I hadn't been in a "real fight in the street" until I had my eyelid glued shut with an opponent's arterial blood, so maybe our opinions on that differ....





Mz1 said:


> I said, Pro fighter vs. Play-fighter.




Lots of servicemen have been trained in the arming and deployment of nuclear weapons, and served confident in their ability to do so, but never did....likewise, I know of no other way to learn the proper use of a knife or other edged weapon-one cannot actually stab an opponent, no matter how much reality or "liveness" one brings to the table, but one can learn to precisely and decisively employ such weapons to great efficacy, *without* contact.

Policemen and other combat shooters learn to use their weapon without actually shooting anyone, though great strides have been made in simulating the stress and reactions of actual gun-combat.

I think what you call "play fighting," others might properly call "training," and/or "rehearsal." As I said in another thread, when I stabbed that kid with my pen, I'd been rehearsing for a long time-practicing the techniques and scenarios, but I'd never actually stabbed anyone until then-don't know if it would have been as effective without all that "play fighting" I did. 



Mz1 said:


> I'm just playing too 'bro. Can I call you 'bro btw? Reason I asked is b/c someone went all psycho on here when I called them homey.



You know, the Creator and my parents blessed me with one brother, and, while I don't talk about him much, if he weren't my brother, I'd want him for a friend-*he* can call me "bro."

Likewise, there are those I've trained with,spilled blood with, Sundanced and eaten peyote with-some of them I don't really like or trust very much, but we share bonds that warrant calling each other "brother."

There are even those here on Martial Talk, whom I've never met in real life, but enjoyed their posts, and gotten some sense of who they are-a lot of them, I'd be *proud* to have call me "bro."

_You_, on the other hand? 

I don't say this very often,and I've mostly put that part of my life far behind me, but: _you can call me "*doctor*". _:lfao:


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## Tez3 (Dec 10, 2012)

For the record I didn't go 'psycho' when you called me 'homey. While it's an American word, over here it has very different connotations, call someone here that and it will earn you a smack in the mouth.  It's only used within a drug/gang criminal culture, not outside it. It's rarely used in a friendly way.

The word 'homey' as used in English has a differenet meaning and not one you'd use of a person unless again you wanted to be unfriendly._"This sense of the word is defined in the OED as &#8220;unsophisticated, simple; plain, unadorned, not fine; everyday, commonplace; unpolished, rough, rude&#8221; as well as that which &#8220;belongs to home or is produced or practised at home (esp. a humble home).&#8221;__The dictionary adds that this meaning of the word is &#8220;sometimes approbative, as connoting the absence of artificial embellishment; but often apologetic, depreciative, or even as a euphemism for wanting refinement, polish, or grace.&#8221;

_So either way it doesn't come across as friendly or pleasant. And we don't use the word 'bro' either lol.


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 10, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> For the record I didn't go 'psycho' when you called me 'homey. While it's an American word, over here it has very different connotations, call someone here that and it will earn you a smack in the mouth.  It's only used within a drug/gang criminal culture, not outside it. It's rarely used in a friendly way.
> 
> The word 'homey' as used in English has a differenet meaning and not one you'd use of a person unless again you wanted to be unfriendly._"This sense of the word is defined in the OED as &#8220;unsophisticated, simple; plain, unadorned, not fine; everyday, commonplace; unpolished, rough, rude&#8221; as well as that which &#8220;belongs to home or is produced or practised at home (esp. a humble home).&#8221;__The dictionary adds that this meaning of the word is &#8220;sometimes approbative, as connoting the absence of artificial embellishment; but often apologetic, depreciative, or even as a euphemism for wanting refinement, polish, or grace.&#8221;
> 
> _So either way it doesn't come across as friendly or pleasant. And we don't use the word 'bro' either lol.


...So, what did the unrefined person say when a tornado blew a trailer park on top of him?

"Get Off Me, Homes!"


----------



## Mz1 (Dec 10, 2012)

elder999 said:


> Well, it's as I said then, yes? If slipping isn't effective 100% of the time, then boxers will get poked in the eye, especially by someone who has trained to do so.



You seem to think that I somehow said that eye poking and other anti-rape techniques never works. 



> How about if your opponent is in a phone booth? What if you're carjacked? What if attacked while sitting down somewhere else? Knees and elbows are all fine and dandy, if the situation is appropriate.....



If you boxed before you'd know that there's a drill called the "phone booth" drill where we spar shoulder to shoulder. And in MT, we fight in such close quarters with the clinch. Ever heard of up elbows, down elbows, curved knees...pretty much most knees and elbows would work. Then there are short punches. 

And for sitting down....why? Were you attacked while on the toilet before or something?    I never said eye poking, biting, etc... never works, just that it's silly for me to pay someone real money to teach and train me how to do such. My little niece can teach me how to do this for free.  



> Yes, you've made it clear that you think as much. To my mind, though, I'd been in a lot of fights, but I hadn't been in a "real fight in the street" until I had my eyelid glued shut with an opponent's arterial blood, so maybe our opinions on that differ....



Real fights in the streets are much easier than fights in the ring or cage. Here's a hint, most slobs on the streets can't fight. I can see their haymakers coming a mile away. And it's not always a fight to the death like in the movies or what SD DVD's tells you. Most of the time, it's just punching some loudmouth in the face really hard to get them to STFU.



> Lots of servicemen have been trained in the arming and deployment of nuclear weapons, and served confident in their ability to do so, but never did....



This is a weak analogy. Obviously the deployment of an actual nuclear weapon is an enormous ordeal where a massive explosion takes place, costing tens millions of dollars.....but it's merely about logistics, pushing buttons and obey commands. While trained fighters, punches each other out  for KO's regularly, and it's just another ordinary day of training.



> likewise, I know of no other way to learn the proper use of a knife or other edged weapon-one cannot actually stab an opponent, no matter how much reality or "liveness" one brings to the table, but one can learn to precisely and decisively employ such weapons to great efficacy, without contact.



Obviously because an edged weapon causes much greater damage than human limbs, even at the slightest touch. Tippie tappie contact with a  knife can kill while tippie tappie sparring w/o ever going hard for KO's won't prepare most people for real fights b/c they're not experience what it's like to get punched in the face hard, repeatedly. 



> Policemen and other combat shooters learn to use their weapon without actually shooting anyone, though great strides have been made in simulating the stress and reactions of actual gun-combat.



Which probably explains why this young cop paid for his inexperience with his life vs. a battle hardened Vietnam Vet who was at least 60 years old.






Obviously cops nor soldiers can use live ammo to shoot each other during training. But fighters certainly can go all out with punches and kicks to become better. It's easy to spot the lifelong Martial Artist who only tippie tap spar and never really fought before....they usually start turning their head away or flinching like crazy when multiple shots are being thrown at them with 50-60% power....then I get warned by the supervisor to lower the power.



> I think what you call "play fighting," others might properly call "training," and/or "rehearsal."



We have this too, it's called constructive sparring. But afterward, we spar for real.



> As I said in another thread, when I stabbed that kid with my pen, I'd been rehearsing for a long time-practicing the techniques and scenarios, but I'd never actually stabbed anyone until then-don't know if it would have been as effective without all that "play fighting" I did.



Again, a piercing or edge weapon causes much more damage even at medium power or even at the slightest touch. Just like pulling the shotgun trigger at close range, not much training is needed. But throwing a punch hard and accurate enough to hurt someone, requires much more training. And that's only part of it, as the other half is about being able to take hits. Chances are, you will get hit.



> You know, the Creator and my parents blessed me with one brother, and, while I don't talk about him much, if he weren't my brother, I'd want him for a friend-he can call me "bro."
> 
> Likewise, there are those I've trained with,spilled blood with, Sundanced and eaten peyote with-some of them I don't really like or trust very much, but we share bonds that warrant calling each other "brother."
> 
> ...



How about "friendo"?  Can I call you friendo, friendo?


----------



## Mz1 (Dec 10, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> For the record I didn't go 'psycho' when you called me 'homey. While it's an American word, over here it has very different connotations, call someone here that and it will earn you a smack in the mouth.  It's only used within a drug/gang criminal culture, not outside it. It's rarely used in a friendly way.
> 
> The word 'homey' as used in English has a differenet meaning and not one you'd use of a person unless again you wanted to be unfriendly._"This sense of the word is defined in the OED as unsophisticated, simple; plain, unadorned, not fine; everyday, commonplace; unpolished, rough, rude as well as that which belongs to home or is produced or practised at home (esp. a humble home).__The dictionary adds that this meaning of the word is sometimes approbative, as connoting the absence of artificial embellishment; but often apologetic, depreciative, or even as a euphemism for wanting refinement, polish, or grace.
> 
> _So either way it doesn't come across as friendly or pleasant. And we don't use the word 'bro' either lol.




How about "darby"? What does this mean?  Someone keeps calling me this, haha.


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 10, 2012)

Mz1 said:


> You seem to think that I somehow said that eye poking and other anti-rape techniques never works.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I assume you mean, by using 'nor', that soldiers and police don't use live ammo? If so you're wrong, the military do live firing exercises where live ammo is used. We actually have here a 'Live Fire Group' of SNCOs who supervise very carefully these exercises. Here the SAS and the Royal Marines use live ammo regularly on their exercises some of which are close quarters. They even do it with live blades, gasp, shock, horror.......


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 10, 2012)

Himura Kenshin said:


> You do not need to train how to poke someone in the eye, but you should train on when you should do it and why.


I disagree. Most normal people are not mentally prepared for seeing the blood and goo that can be the result of an eye gouge. I would recommend against believing it will save you. I don't have the skill set, but a black belt in our system instantly challenges those who proclaim their eye gouging will save them from being submitted to a BJJ match, and they get to gouge all they want. He always wins, because he knows eye gouging is a fantasy. In our system, we are taught to gouge or flick the eyes right off the bat, as a timing mechanism, but never as a get out fight free card.


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## Mz1 (Dec 10, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> I assume you mean, by using 'nor', that soldiers and police don't use live ammo? If so you're wrong, the military do live firing exercises where live ammo is used. We actually have here a 'Live Fire Group' of SNCOs who supervise very carefully these exercises. Here the SAS and the Royal Marines use live ammo regularly on their exercises some of which are close quarters. They even do it with live blades, gasp, shock, horror.......




Dude, you even highlighted what I wrote in red, LOL.  Read it again.

"*Obviously cops nor soldiers can use live ammo to shoot each other during training." -MZ1

*


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 10, 2012)

Mz1 said:


> Dude, you even highlighted what I wrote in red, LOL.  Read it again.
> 
> "*Obviously cops nor soldiers can use live ammo to shoot each other during training." -MZ1
> 
> *


Tez is no dude.


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## seasoned (Dec 10, 2012)

Touch Of Death said:


> Tez is no dude.



Yeah, get with the program. When in doubt, check profile.........................


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## Tez3 (Dec 10, 2012)

Mz1 said:


> Dude, you even highlighted what I wrote in red, LOL. Read it again.
> 
> "*Obviously cops nor soldiers can use live ammo to shoot each other during training." -MZ1
> 
> *




Then you write very bad English, 'nor' is paired with 'neither' which means that 'neither the police nor the cops....', 
_
"Nor means neither that or another one. (conjunction) __An example of nor is, "She didn't want ice cream or cake"
http://www.yourdictionary.com/nor
_


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## elder999 (Dec 10, 2012)

Mz1 said:


> You seem to think that I somehow said that eye poking and other anti-rape techniques never works.



Now we've gotten somewhere. If you concede that it works, then you have to recognize that _some_ sort of training to utilize it is required to properly utilize it for maximum efficacy.



Mz1 said:


> If you boxed before you'd know that there's a drill called the "phone booth" drill where we spar shoulder to shoulder. And in MT, we fight in such close quarters with the clinch



I've boxed before-likely, (again, I mean no insult) before you were born:



elder999 said:


> Im 45 years old. I grew up in New York. *My father was a boxing and judo coach in college and the Navy, and was my first martial arts instructor*-he also had background in some form of karate from Hawaii, though its never been 100% certain which form it was. My formal training began in tae kwon do at age 11, and while I earned dan ranking, I no longer practice tae kwon do. I also earned dan grades in judo, kyokushin karate and Miyama ryu jujutsu.Along the way, Ive tried a few other martial arts-sometimes for years at a time, wrestled in school,* got my head handed to me boxing Golden Glo*ves, and very many of my instructors were law enforcement, corrections officers and/or military personnel with real world experience. When I was in my teens and early twenties I took Charles Nelsons 15 lesson course as a yearly reality check, and I also spent a little more than a year in Japan, training and trying to earn a living as a musician, of all things.That was 25 years ago, though, and, after 34 years in martial arts I still consider myself very much a student of self-defense, just as I do about cooking, music, and, well, everythingthough I have been fortunate (or unfortunate) enough to have had to defend myself and get away intact, and I do teach a small number of jujutsu students..



I'm familiar enough with the drill to know that what it's *really* about is being able to fight one's way out of a bad situation, after all, where you've become limited to



Mz1 said:


> Ever heard of up elbows, down elbows, curved knees...pretty much most knees and elbows would work. Then there are short punches.



It's likely, in such *contests*, that your opponent has not-you're trapped in a corner, and need to get out.



Mz1 said:


> 's silly for me to pay someone real money to teach and train me how to do such.



Okay then, 

For the record, I've nothing against "MMA." I've been doing it since long before there was "MMA": shootboxing in Japan, and other _kakutogi, _and just playing, sparring and experimenting with friends.....lots of people have-the Brazilians had vale tudo for years, and here in the States we had all kinds of things-its just that it's become a somewhat more organized "sport" now, with *contests*. I used to travel quite a bit for work-still kind of do-and most places, I get the best workout and best welcome from MMA gyms, because the mat doesn't lie. If there's a judo dojo, I'll usually check that out, and if I know someone, I'll go there, but the best bet for the last 15 years or so has always been an MMA club or gym-assuming that they have a properly organized program and certified instructors to regulate the action.

Heck, right now I work for PNM in New Mexico, and get to go to the San Juan power plant in Farmington quite a bit-when I'm there, I workout  here.

Needless to say, though, I disagree with almost all of the rest of your post, which was absurdly misinformed, really-training is needed for firearms like a shotgun to be used defensively, as well as knives, and street fights offer different stresses than contests.

Of course, I bow to your vastly superior experience in "punching some loudmouth in the face to get them to STFU."  :lfao: :lfao: :lfao: :lfao:


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## Tez3 (Dec 11, 2012)

seasoned said:


> Yeah, get with the program. When in doubt, check profile.........................




Really? That says I'm a bloke?


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## Mz1 (Dec 11, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Then you write very bad English, 'nor' is paired with 'neither' which means that 'neither the police nor the cops....',
> _
> "Nor means neither that or another one. (conjunction) __An example of nor is, "She didn't want ice cream or cake"
> http://www.yourdictionary.com/nor
> _




LOL, now you're just trying extra hard now. You even admit in writing that I meant "neither the police nor the cops".  But my argument that they don't "use live ammo to shoot each other" during training has no other meaning. What next? I have to spellcheck too counselor?

*Obviously cops nor soldiers can use live ammo to shoot each other during training." -MZ1

*


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 11, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Really? That says I'm a bloke?



I think we're going to need pictures. Preferably embarassing ones...


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## seasoned (Dec 11, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> I think we're going to need pictures. Preferably embarrassing ones...



Picture ID will work *if* nothing else................


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## MJS (Dec 11, 2012)

Mz1 said:


> My money's on them vs. a Pretend-Fighter.



Well, to be honest, given some of the schools out there, my money would be on the boxer as well.  However, I wouldn't always put all my money on a boxer, as there're alot of quality schools out there, that do make a more well rounded fighter, than a boxer.


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## MJS (Dec 11, 2012)

punisher73 said:


> Humans are not pure carnivore such as a lion/tiger etc.  Our teeth are not designed to just bite and tear flesh.  If you just open up and clamp your mouth on something, you may cause pain but you are not going to get much panic reaction from it.  The purpose of biting is to cause panic in the other person and their instinct is to just get away.  The time I was bitten in a fight, the person didn't know what they were doing and just clamped on and down, and it didn't even break the skin.  Just an annoyance and made me want to hurt them more.



Exactly!  I'd say this applies to anything that we do really.  I mean, anyone can swing away, throwing half *** punches, but someone who really knows what they're doing...well, IMO, those people, just like the ones who know the proper areas to bite, will be much more effective.


----------



## MJS (Dec 11, 2012)

Mz1 said:


> I guess this is where the TMA and SD people are heading, now that all the young blood are switching or flocking to MMA right?  Tactical biting 101 and making it sound like every situation will be a life or death one.



LMAO!  Sorry, but they're only 'flocking' because its the current flavor of the time, just like people flocked to Ninjutsu in the 80's.  However, in my area, I'd say its a pretty good mix all around.  Sure, you have people that prefer the MMA schools, but you also have those that prefer a different route.


----------



## Mz1 (Dec 11, 2012)

elder999 said:


> Now we've gotten somewhere. If you concede that it works, then you have to recognize that some sort of training to utilize it is required to properly utilize it for maximum efficacy.



If I already throw over 30 jabs per round at fully resisting opponents during hard sparring for KO's, then I'm pretty sure that I can  poke someone in the eye really well already. Probably a lot more powerful, more precise, faster, etc. than the average SD/TMA guy who doesn't spar for KO's regularly. I'm certainly not going to pay money to have someone teach me how to eye poke, and especially not for biting, eye gouging, nut strike, etc.



> I'm familiar enough with the drill to know that what it's really about is being able to fight one's way out of a bad situation, after all, where you've become limited to



You questioned whether or not I would be able to throw knees, elbows and even punch in confined spaces such as a phone booth. The answer is yes as this is standard close quarters fighting in MMA/MT. Getting backed up into the corner, against the cage, back on the ground, etc. is about the same.



> It's likely, in such contests, that your opponent has not-you're trapped in a corner, and need to get out.


 
Getting backed up into the corner, against the cage, back on the ground, etc. is about the same. Jab out, wall walk, clinch & drive, etc. We already train and apply this regularly in hard sparring and real fights.



> Needless to say, though, I disagree with almost all of the rest of your post, which was absurdly misinformed, really-training is needed for firearms like a shotgun to be used defensively, as well as knives, and street fights offer different stresses than contests.



I think I know a thing or two about guns, I love guns. I never said anything about not needing to train in order to become proficient with guns and knives. While you made some off the wall analogy about deploying  nuclear warheads and such, that has nothing with being similar to H2H,  actual sparring. And you seem to have this mentality that every  situation is going to be life or death, which is what's really absurd. I  refuted your knife analogies with specific arguments and your rebuttal  is that you disagree? 

I just said that pulling the trigger of a shotgun causes much more damage and requires much less training than what it takes to beat someone H2H.  Someone who just bought their first firearm in form of a shotgun, and w/o any training whatsoever can still pose a deadly threat to the most trained and experienced soldier, cop or whatever. But someone who trains MA yet scared to death of sparring for KO's regularly, is not going to have much of a chance against an experienced MMA fighter.


----------



## Mz1 (Dec 11, 2012)

MJS said:


> Well, to be honest, given some of the schools out there, my money would be on the boxer as well.  However, I wouldn't always put all my money on a boxer, as there're alot of quality schools out there, that do make a more well rounded fighter, than a boxer.



I certainly agree. We fight every year in WKA events that are run by Karate schools (who fights MMA, etc.). There certainly are Karate schools, Kung-Fu, Krav Maga, etc. that fights. Just a lot of them don't.  The norm is, a lot of people are scared to get hit in the face hard as part of regular training. So they quit. We have this problem too. So to pay the rent, gyms have to go the McDojo route sometimes. Which is why MMA gyms don't just teach MMA. We have the BJJ side where no one gets punched in the face. There's a very successful MMA school around here that recently brought in a children's Karate program because parent's wants to see their kids looking like they belong to some order/team with their gi's and colored belt. 

I have no problem with this. I only have problems when people who never really fought before with their eye poking, tries to tell me that they're way more deadly & realistic than an experienced Boxer or MMA fighter that have indeed, put their elbows & knees into people's faces (and vice versa) and that somehow, fighting in the ring/cage is less realistic than their play-fighting.


----------



## Mz1 (Dec 11, 2012)

MJS said:


> LMAO!  Sorry, but they're only 'flocking' because its the current flavor of the time, just like people flocked to Ninjutsu in the 80's.  However, in my area, I'd say its a pretty good mix all around.  Sure, you have people that prefer the MMA schools, but you also have those that prefer a different route.



It's more than the current flavor though because the Gracies actively sought out and challenged other styles to fight....no rules, no time limit.  All the eye poking, biting, nut grabbing, anti-rape tactics, ninja-strikes, etc...allowed.  They ruffled lots of feathers by mopping the floor with these TMA  stylists that stepped up. Then the UFC made it worse for TMA as it went global, exposing many of the myths, which eventually led to MMA. 

In the 70's it was Kung-Fu, especially due to Bruce Lee. In the 80's, maybe TKD and Karate. But since UFC 1 in 1993, MMA has only gotten bigger every year. It's been nearly 20 years now, and it's claimed as being the fastest growing sport for many years straight now.


----------



## MJS (Dec 11, 2012)

Mz1 said:


> I certainly agree. We fight every year in WKA events that are run by Karate schools (who fights MMA, etc.). There certainly are Karate schools, Kung-Fu, Krav Maga, etc. that fights. Just a lot of them don't.  The norm is, a lot of people are scared to get hit in the face hard as part of regular training. So they quit. We have this problem too. So to pay the rent, gyms have to go the McDojo route sometimes. Which is why MMA gyms don't just teach MMA. We have the BJJ side where no one gets punched in the face. There's a very successful MMA school around here that recently brought in a children's Karate program because parent's wants to see their kids looking like they belong to some order/team with their gi's and colored belt.
> 
> I have no problem with this. I only have problems when people who never really fought before with their eye poking, tries to tell me that they're way more deadly & realistic than an experienced Boxer or MMA fighter that have indeed, put their elbows & knees into people's faces (and vice versa) and that somehow, fighting in the ring/cage is less realistic than their play-fighting.



Agreed!!  Sad to say, ALOT of schools around my area, tend to be overly cautious on the contact.  IMHO, that is what the arts were designed for, way back when....for fighting, and IMO, if you're going to fight, then you need to have hard contact.  I'd be willing to bet that many people would cringe at my old Kenpo schools, if they saw how hard we fight in Kyokushin.


----------



## MJS (Dec 11, 2012)

Mz1 said:


> It's more than the current flavor though because the Gracies actively sought out and challenged other styles to fight....no rules, no time limit.  All the eye poking, biting, nut grabbing, anti-rape tactics, ninja-strikes, etc...allowed.  They ruffled lots of feathers by mopping the floor with these TMA  stylists that stepped up. Then the UFC made it worse for TMA as it went global, exposing many of the myths, which eventually led to MMA.
> 
> In the 70's it was Kung-Fu, especially due to Bruce Lee. In the 80's, maybe TKD and Karate. But since UFC 1 in 1993, MMA has only gotten bigger every year. It's been nearly 20 years now, and it's claimed as being the fastest growing sport for many years straight now.



Well, I'll give you that.  There're quite a few challenge matches on YT.  The quality of the challenger...well, I can't comment on that, because I dont know who they are, but looking at some of them, well, I was less than impressed.  

I guess my point was simply that as the years went on, people were attracted to various things.  It was like a kid with a new toy.  They'd get something new, play with it, and when the next new toy came out....

Only difference here, is that people really enjoy MMA and IMO, there really hasn't been anything new, per se, to draw them away.  Just to be clear...I'm not anti MMA.  I have alot of friends who do MMA/BJJ. Its just not something that I want to devote time to at the moment.


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## Tez3 (Dec 11, 2012)

Mz1 said:


> LOL, now you're just trying extra hard now. You even admit in writing that I meant "neither the police nor the cops". But my argument that they don't "use live ammo to shoot each other" during training has no other meaning. What next? I have to spellcheck too counselor?
> 
> *Obviously cops nor soldiers can use live ammo to shoot each other during training." -MZ1
> 
> *



Are you just being awkward or what, I'm not trying hard, I'm not even trying, I think you are playing some sort of game on here. Trolling methinks.


----------



## Aiki Lee (Dec 11, 2012)

Touch Of Death said:


> I disagree. Most normal people are not mentally prepared for seeing the blood and goo that can be the result of an eye gouge. I would recommend against believing it will save you. I don't have the skill set, but a black belt in our system instantly challenges those who proclaim their eye gouging will save them from being submitted to a BJJ match, and they get to gouge all they want. He always wins, because he knows eye gouging is a fantasy. In our system, we are taught to gouge or flick the eyes right off the bat, as a timing mechanism, but never as a get out fight free card.



I'm confused with what you are disagreeing with me about. I do not believe eye gouging will end a fight unless the attacker was not very committed to harming you (in which case eye gouging may be excessive force). 

One of my instructors was in a fight years ago and someone put him in a headlock and he eye gouged him, except it didn't work. The attacker's words were, "You can take my eye, but I'm going to ****ing kill you." My former instructor then changed to a different technique to escape.

What you said, using it as a timing mechanism is part of the "when you should do it and why". So I actually agree with what you have said and always have. Attacking the weak spots like the eyes and the groin are best trained as set ups for other techniques as everyone will instinctively protect all their balls, whether they are in their heads or dangling between their legs.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Dec 11, 2012)

Himura Kenshin said:


> I'm confused with what you are disagreeing with me about. I do not believe eye gouging will end a fight unless the attacker was not very committed to harming you (in which case eye gouging may be excessive force).
> 
> One of my instructors was in a fight years ago and someone put him in a headlock and he eye gouged him, except it didn't work. The attacker's words were, "You can take my eye, but I'm going to ****ing kill you." My former instructor then changed to a different technique to escape.
> 
> What you said, using it as a timing mechanism is part of the "when you should do it and why". So I actually agree with what you have said and always have. Attacking the weak spots like the eyes and the groin are best trained as set ups for other techniques as everyone will instinctively protect all their balls, whether they are in their heads or dangling between their legs.


If memory serves, you said they didn't need to be taught how, but when and why. I think the how is important. However, we agree for the most part.


----------



## Steve (Dec 11, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Are you just being awkward or what, I'm not trying hard, I'm not even trying, I think you are playing some sort of game on here.


Let's chill out on the back and forth, guys.  We're a friendly website and the mods have made it clear that this thread is on thin ice.  Besides, Tez, after a sentence like the one above, you might avoid criticizing someone's grammar. (joking, joking!)


----------



## Cyriacus (Dec 11, 2012)

Himura Kenshin said:


> One of my instructors was in a fight years ago and someone put him in a headlock and he eye gouged him, except it didn't work. The attacker's words were, "You can take my eye, but I'm going to ****ing kill you." My former instructor then changed to a different technique to escape.



Because alas, rage removes inhibitions, and relying on pain to move someone around stops working so good


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 11, 2012)

Himura Kenshin said:


> One of my instructors was in a fight years ago and someone put him in a headlock and he eye gouged him, except it didn't work. The attacker's words were, "You can take my eye, but I'm going to ****ing kill you." My former instructor then changed to a different technique to escape.



Which just goes to show that nothing is 100%. I think most of us (but not 100% of us...) already knew that.


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## Mz1 (Dec 11, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Are you just being awkward or what, I'm not trying hard, I'm not even trying, I think you are playing some sort of game on here. Trolling methinks.



You're the one who responded to my post that was directed towards *elder999*. I wasn't even talking to you. You made a mistake. I called you on it. Then you try to cover it up by nitpicking grammar.


----------



## FluidSound (Dec 12, 2012)

Personally, I think eye gouging is an effective tactic if done properly and an opportunity arises for it. Your pupils are very, very sensitive. They are the reason you see and just touching it can hurt, let alone gouging. Getting rid of the idea of honor and cheap moves, eye gouging in a real fight should be used if opportune.


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## Tez3 (Dec 12, 2012)

Steve said:


> Let's chill out on the back and forth, guys. We're a friendly website and the mods have made it clear that this thread is on thin ice. Besides, Tez, after a sentence like the one above, you might avoid criticizing someone's grammar. (joking, joking!)



Nought wrong with my English. Just tired of the game playing, as you said this thread is on thin ice so calling me a bloke and trying to bait me isn't on. I'm not going to creat work for mods by reporting, and I wasn't even being nasty to him. Nasty would be calling him a pillock which I'm not doing however much the temptation so I'm playing nice. He's on ignore now.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 12, 2012)

FluidSound said:


> Personally, I think eye gouging is an effective tactic if done properly and an opportunity arises for it. Your pupils are very, very sensitive. They are the reason you see and just touching it can hurt, let alone gouging. Getting rid of the idea of honor and cheap moves, eye gouging in a real fight should be used if opportune.



Just to clarify your anatomy...
The pupil is not sensitive at all, since it's a HOLE. It's the solid parts of the eye (primarily the cornea and sclera) that are sensitive. The pupil is just a hole in the middle of the iris, which is behind the cornea. When you poke someone in the eye (the whole "gouge out an eye" thing is ridiculous) you're really only going to make contact with the sclera and/or the cornea.


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## FluidSound (Dec 14, 2012)

I see. Excuse me for being mistaken. Anyhow, the point is, when you touch the cornea (especially at the center of the eye) it does hurt. That's just from touching it. If anyone's ever been poked in the eye, it's very, very unpleasant. Generally speaking, after poking someone in the eye, they usually tend to hold onto the eye and leave themselves off guard. At least, from my experience that's what happens. Still, I find that if it works, it works.


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## Cyriacus (Dec 14, 2012)

FluidSound said:


> I see. Excuse me for being mistaken. Anyhow, the point is, when you touch the cornea (especially at the center of the eye) it does hurt. That's just from touching it. If anyone's ever been poked in the eye, it's very, very unpleasant. Generally speaking, after poking someone in the eye, they usually tend to hold onto the eye and leave themselves off guard. At least, from my experience that's what happens. Still, I find that if it works, it works.


Or you get very angry because someone just tried to harm your only means of vision.


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## Tez3 (Dec 16, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> I think we're going to need pictures. Preferably embarassing ones...



there you go! Obviously I'm the female lol This is somewhat embassing as the guest instructor Marcus Da Silva is now in prison after being convicted of kidnap and assault of a female student! Here he was doing a BJJ seminar.


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## Towel Snapper (Sep 12, 2014)

DennisBreene said:


> As an ophthalmologist who's seen a fair number of eye injuries in my career; I can say that when you strike an eye with your fingers, you will at least cause enough pain to momentarily gain an advantage.  I don't think I ever saw a patient who was struck in the classic Three Stooges style. Most fighting injuries were classic blunt force trauma from a fist. The results could range from a black eye to fractures of the bones of the eye socket to rupture and severe disruption of the eyeball itself. Some of the most serious injuries I've seen were the result of accidental contact to the eye during basketball games while scrambling under the net.  These injuries were more likely to be from fingers stricking the eye and from a whip like motion of the hand while blocking or reaching for the ball. I suspect that the most practical way of attacking the eye in combat would be with a rapid multi finger whip like strike. Multi fingered to increase the odds that at least one eye is struck and whip like to impart maximum force to the strike. I have much less faith that a traditional "poke" would be as likely to hit on target with force.



Kinda like shooting an eyeball with a high velocity shot gun, as apposed to aiming 1 large caliber bullet at the eye. 

Nice.


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## PhotonGuy (Sep 13, 2014)

kempodisciple said:


> Gorilla said, in another thread
> 
> 
> So, as a mindless servant of others, I'm starting this thread.
> ...



Use training dummies and I've even heard of instructors that use grapes to represent eyeballs.


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## drop bear (Sep 13, 2014)

I have eyegouged people and been eyegouged.

I used to go for it when they bite me. But have found a nose gouge gets them off a bit quicker.

I just bend their fingers back when they try it.


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## donnaTKD (Sep 13, 2014)

eye gouging is banned i8n competition but out in the real world of SD it's an effective method for getting someone to back down allowing you to scarper


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## elder999 (Sep 13, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Use training dummies and I've even heard of instructors that use* grapes *to represent eyeballs.



Oranges give much more accurate feedback.


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## Balrog (Sep 14, 2014)

DennisBreene said:


> As an ophthalmologist who's seen a fair number of eye injuries in my career; I can say that when you strike an eye with your fingers, you will at least cause enough pain to momentarily gain an advantage.


This.  If you are teaching a self-defense technique that involves a palm heel strike to the nose, you can easily tweak it to include a rake across the eyes with the fingertips.  The pain from the strike plus something getting near the eyes will cause the attacker to involuntarily close his eyes and probably yank his head back.  At this point, he can't see you and that is a golden opportunity to take him downtown.

Remember the checklist.  

If
  ...they can't get their hands on you, or
  ...they can't breathe, or
  ...they can't see you, or
  ...they can't stand up
then
  ...they can't hurt you.


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