# Is Modern Martial Arts Losing It's Discipline in Order to Attract Customers



## stal0225 (Mar 19, 2002)

Well here it is folks. The Thread that was asked to be started.

I've just rejoined karate a little over a year ago and have noticed that there is no to very little discipline. The kids will put up their hands but get impatient and scream out their answers after waiting to long. They get told nicely to wait their turn but nothing else is done. 

I've watched kids who get bored with the lesson and start talking right in the middle of the lesson. 

I as a Sempai at the beginning of the class Know who my students are and who they are best friends with so seperate them at the beginning thus not giving them the chance to disrupt that person learning next to them.

Is this being to LIGHT on the kids?
Should we worry about the parents watching and what they will say?
If I discipline a kid should i worry about a parent coming up to me at the end and saying that i missed that kid and that kid but nailed her kid?


I used to get push ups galore when i was younger. I used to open my big mouth even when it wasn't wanted. I used to be a smart a$$ punk who thought he knew more then the people who were teaching me. I was very disruptive in class and am thankful that the instructor then had the nerve to move me so that the rest were able to continue on.

So I ask you Is The Discipline going out the window so that instructors can get the kids to stay and the parents happy?

Thanks for looking and remember to vote.
Stal

p.s. School teachers aren't allowed to spank anymore and we practice our self defense on each other. 
Difference----Control.(i hope)


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## Klondike93 (Mar 19, 2002)

In the old days when I was coming up through the ranks, discipline was the word of the day.  You did push ups or you got the crap beat of you in sparring or the head instructor would do a lot of demos on you.  Me, I learned a lot of humility adn respect of my seinors, but just don't see that any more.  I think the reason why is as your poll asks, for the allmighty dollar. However if you do have to make a living at it you have to make some concessions to keep your students.


:asian:


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## fist of fury (Mar 19, 2002)

I think it's the almighty dollar does play a large roll, but also lawsuits. If little johnny gets hurt in class the instructor might get sued. Hell if an adult gets hurt they might sue. We have too many cry babies now today. How can someone sign up for a martial art and not expect there to be a risk of injury. It's mind boggling sometimes the amount of crybabies we have in M.A.


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## tshadowchaser (Mar 19, 2002)

A few years back I wet to a tournament in southern calif. What bothered me at the time was seeing youngsters running all over the place yelling screaming and in general doing what ever the hell they wanted. Their parents didn't stop them, their instructors didn't stop them. 
  These  kids where running by Adult black belts punching them  and calling the black belts by their first names. They where not saying:  Sensi Mike   or Mr. Mike Or anything like that they where saying Mike or being even less respectful in many instances.
   I can not say on this forum what I would like to about such actions. I will say it's not the way I was raised in the arts, and i did not like it. And NO they did not call me by my first name more than once.  
So who was to blame the parent? the instructors? or everyone who watched this go on and did not guestion it?
Shadow
  :soapbox:


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## stal0225 (Mar 19, 2002)

And a well Rounded Here Here for that comment.

There was a seminar that i attended quite a few years ago where the first part of the morning was Children and then the adult students afterward. 

The Kids looked so confused at the whole salutation part at the beginning and even looked quizical at the instructor when after they finished helping said guest instructor and just walked away back into their lineup.

I watched a few guest instructor's get alittle frustrated with this and call back "hey thanks" at the back of the students.

Later

:rofl: 
Wrestle with an idea that will one day hurt you in return.


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## Robbo (Mar 19, 2002)

Although the poll is 100% (8 votes) so far I'd be interested to know how many of the people that voted do run their own schools. Now don't get me wrong I also think there is a break-down somwhere here in the discipline. Heck, we used to get the bamboo shinai across the stomach during leg raises and such. You were focused if you knew that was coming. Try doing that today! I would just like some school owners viewpoints.

Thanks,
Rob


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## Rob_Broad (Mar 19, 2002)

There have been to many frivolous lawsuits ofver the yrs and the martial arts instructors are scared it would happen to them if they taught the way were trained.  There has to be a line drawn by the instructor that they will not take any crap form children or their parents.  The best thing an instructor can do with a family that believes in no discipline iis send them to his competitior, let your competitor worry about the brat.  I believe in screen students and letting the parents know in advance what the discipline level in the school is, if they can't accept it you are better off without them.  I don't believe in beating a student in sparring for slacking a little, instead they don't spar.  The days of basement schools with screams of pain all theough the night have to disappear, we are there to built people up not hurt them till they can take it.

I believe in positive reinforcement instead of screaming at someone for an hour.  The reason we have such a militaristic approach the to teaching the martial arts is becuae it was Gi's that brought them to North America.  Here were highly disciplined tough guys teaching many other highly disciplined tough guys, as the popularity spread more people became interested and we have had to soften on some aspects, but discipline shouldn't be one of the things that should be lost to the wayside.  We should be instilling Self Esteem, Self Respect, and Self Confidence and that will teach them Self Discipline.


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## Klondike93 (Mar 19, 2002)

I don't own the school, but I do get to teach there and I don't put up with kids running around acting like it's a daycare center.
If they try doing this in my class, they are asked to leave cause I will not put up with it. I'm there to teach not baby sit.   


:asian:


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## Kirk (Mar 19, 2002)

> I'm there to teach not baby sit.



Well said!  Here here!  Cheers!   :-D

That'd be a good sign in the studio.


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## Battousai (Mar 19, 2002)

Sometimes children act horrible in my school. I'm not the head instructor so I can't do much about it. 
 One time I told one kid to stop messing around, he was grabbing his partener all wrong, I told him to do it right. He started crying and ever since pretty much hated me. His dad was there taking the class as well, and he was perfectly fine with my actions.
 One of the best things I think to deal with this is to have Family Class sessions. Its designed to help the parent and child have some quality time together, and it also makes sure that the parent is aware all the time how their kid is acting. Good parents will be greatful for good discipline in class. Bad parents will call it child abuse. 
 Like the post above said, teaching isn't babysitting, but many parents treat it like it is. Family classes make sure that the parent is involved every step of the way. Kid only classes need alot more instructors then they usually have around.
 As for me, I'm no parent. I only teach adult classes, I only attend adult classes. Kids classes are too much for me.


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## Sigung86 (Mar 20, 2002)

If someone brings a child under teenage years to my school then, at least, one of the parents has to take lessons with her/him.  And, I do screen heavily before I accept the student.  I have dropped students who do not appear to want to be part of what is going on or if their parent and I are unable to keep them in a disciplined state for such a short amount of time.

We do not ask so very much of the students.  What?  Maybe 3 hours a week of their time to come and  listen and work in a disciplined setting where they have to essentially do what is expected of them, to the best of their ability?

Now... Don't get me wrong.  I believe, strongly, in positive reinforcement to help achieve the goals we set, but... I am not a babysitter, and I do not believe that it is my job to raise anyone's children for them.  My job, as it were, is to assist the student in achieving some martial capability and "adding" to their ability to be respectful of self and others.

Class has to be "fun".  If it is not, then I don't think that the students will learn to their fullest potential, and that is regardless of age.  However, there is a certain aura and milieu that goes with learning a martial art, and it doesn't necessarily include ninja turtles, or whatever the current craze happens to be.  It is more a matter of instilling self respect, because, in my considered opinion, if you don't have self respect then none of the rest is possible.

But, and finally, as I run a non-profit/non-commercial school, my perspective on student behavior and capability is considerably different than others.


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## Chris from CT (Mar 20, 2002)

It does seem to be losing it's discipline.  I feel it comes from the fact that there are so many more people making a living out of the martial arts now a days and making it their main source of income.  That's a whole thread in itself.

As far as discipline in a children's class this seems to work for me.

I teach after school programs for kids from Kindergarten to 3rd grade.  I have three rules.
*
1) No talking unless you raise your hand.

2) No touching anyone unless I tell you to.  

3) Pay attention and no fooling around. *

It may seem to be rediculous to ask this age group to do these things, but believe it or not, it seems to work.   

The thing that I find is that I have to be firm and consistant on the rules.  I have had sessions where I didn't enforce the rules  and it was pure chaos, but when I consistantly enforced them it goes so much smoother.  If someone breaks a rule I call them out and they have a seat in the corner.  Before they come back in I ask them "why did I send you to the corner?"  and they usually tell me what rule they broke.  I ask if they are going to do it again ( of course they say no   ) and then I send them back into the group.  At first, they will most likely do it again, but usually the frequency of them getting called out drops.  Being consistant is the key.  

At that age its more about learning movement and basic rules of society to help them progress.  By doing the rules this way the children learn "cause an effect" of their actions.  If you do "A," "B" will happen.  "These are the rules.  If you break them you will go to the corner."  BOTTOM LINE.  No if, ands or buts.  This is the reason I ask them why I sent them to the corner.  So they understand "how to stay out of the corner" and continue to have a good time with everyone else.

Two of the programs are in affluent areas, but I haven't had problems with the parents too much for taking their child out of the group.  The one time I did I just laid it out on the table, "These are the rules in my program and they apply everyone.  If someone breaks one they will go to the corner."  If the parent persisted, then I would give reasons for each rule and why they needed to be followed especially in a martial art program.

I'm with Stal on this one.  I got alot out of the martial arts at a young age and if it were not for my involement in them I probably would be in some troubled waters now.  It kept me on the straight and narrow.  I appreciate what my teachers taught me even though I didn't get it at the time.    I have high respect for anyone who teaches children with the proper intention.  More now than ever!!!  :erg:  

Take care


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## tunetigress (Mar 20, 2002)

IMHO the apparent lack of discipline in kids these days parallels what is happening in the public schools of North America.  Throughout my 2 decade career as a teacher here in Canada, it was obvious to me with each passing year, that the disciplining of children (even by their own parents) was becoming more and more 'politically incorrect.'  In effect, our power to 'control' the behaviour of children has been methodically taken away through the actions of the media, the politicians, and the parents who are simply too busy to take the time to teach their own children to behave with manners, morals, and respect.  At present, you cannot 'force' any child to do anything that they do not wish to do.  Believe me, the kids are all keenly aware of this 'fact.'  Many examples of our society's low expectations regarding how children are to behave, and how children actually believe is acceptable to behave, can be seen by any 'uninitiated adult' simply by watching any episode of popular children's programs on TV such as The Simpsons, Rugrats, Angela Anaconda, and the like.  We are allowing cartoons to teach our children how to relate to the adults around them, just as we are allowing TV to babysit them to keep them busy and out of the way.  So many of the kids I have taught over the years spoke and behaved terribly disrespectfully, but were simply parroting the words and behaviours they had spent so much time 'enjoying' on TV.  You would not believe how many parents find it 'cute' that their kid talks and acts just like Bart Simpson!  I am not surprised that M A instructors are finding similar problems in disciplining children.  In my opinion, we are all responsible!  There is an old saying passed down from some North American  Indian tribe that, to me, says it all:  "It takes a whole community to raise a child."


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## Rainman (Mar 20, 2002)

I will disagree with Ms. Tigress on the "it takes a villiage"  ideology.  So if you live in a bad villiage you get bad children?  It is the sole responsibility of the parents to raise, guide, and dicipline their offspring.  It has been my experience that children who have active parents (that show up to Karate and observe not just drop them off) have the best chance for a successful and meaningful life.  

Life is competitive therefore the kids who have 2 committed parents have a leg up.  PC is part of the community/state and its "all knowing" what is best for everyone.  Karate teachers are responsible for teaching "dojo conduct" in such a way that the kids will respond to but, the parents have to accept and support those rules.


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## stal0225 (Mar 20, 2002)

tiggeress had a point (sorry if i spelt it wrong)

That is why i have canceled my cable.

I've had enough of coming home and the first thing my kids ask is if they can watch t.v.

I watch maybe 3-4 hours a week of t.v. I've now got my kids doing extra homework assignments that are fun so they don't think it's school work. Or they are practicing M. A. that i have taught them. I've found the only arrangements that don't work is when they are at the babysitters or my ex-wifes place. But it's very funny how other people have so many problems just walking through a mall or eating dinner in a resteraunt with their kids.

Anyway i could go on and on about this but i think i'll save it for someone elses turn.

LAter


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## tshadowchaser (Mar 20, 2002)

When I teach I expect whomever is on the floor and in the room to be respectful.
  We had an incident one day when the sisters of a student ran onto the floor telling my assistant (He has been in the arts over 25 years) that he couldn't do such an such, and that he couldnt treat their brother like he did. This lead to the student and the sisters being told to leave. A few minutes later in come the father and he was ripping. 
  When he settled down enough to let me have a word I simply told him no harm had come to his child The stick that had slamed into the floor behind the student was not even close to the student. He was doing a form and the slaming of the stick was to see if a load noise would distract him.
 The Student was not alone on the floor (their where 4 others) and none reacted to the noise even him.They all reacted to the noise and BS being yelled by the 2 girls.
 It was also pointed out that the two girls and himslef where in my school, on my foor, and they all knew the rules and as such I wanted to know if this was a direct challange.If not would he get the hell off my floor because he was takeing away from the other studens learning time.
 Being in a rare mood at this time I told him if his girls would act more as ladies and less like Gang trash it would benifit them. I also gave him the address of my compeditor.
 Sorry for rantting on got carried away remembering 
Shadow


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## tunetigress (Mar 21, 2002)

So Shadow, were they smart enough to catch that 'hint'???


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## Blindside (Mar 21, 2002)

We run a non-profit studio, but I think our school is fairly disiplined.  The attitude is often informal but respectful, and the kids (eventually) get it.  Because we are a non-profit we can ask someone not to come back if they are a serious problem, but this very seldom happens.  

A couple of years ago my old kajukenbo instructor shifted back to his drill seargent mode on his child and adult classes.  Apparently he was like this when he was a young buck, and he didn't like the direction his relatively informal school (also a non-profit, $1 per lesson, must pay usage fee) was going.  Anyway, to make a short story shorter, the kids class boomed.  The parents ate it up, and the kids learned more.  I was very impressed  at the difference.  He told me that he had a mother actually give him permission to spank her child, he of course was horrified, but kept it to himself.  

Me, while I regularly teach the kids class, I do it as a favor to my instructor.  If I ever have my own school (also a non-profit) I wouldn't teach anyone under 12 or so.  Most kids under that age just don't get it.

Lack of discipline is probably more due to the attitude of the school, than some big overall trend.  I have had people who have visited judo and karate kids classes in Japan who say that you don't see much disipline there either.

Lamont


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## Chris from CT (Mar 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Blindside _
> 
> * Because we are a non-profit we can ask someone not to come back if they are a serious problem, but this very seldom happens.  *



In my humble opinion, even a profit run business should do the same.  Whether or not they do depends on if they are losing more tuition of other students leaving because of the trouble student being there.  :shrug:


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 21, 2002)

Well, I hate to hear that others are having problems in this area.  I personally run a very tight ship.  I do NOT tolerate any disrespect of any kind.   This is my house which I share and in doing so, it becomes "OUR" house and as the caretaker I am expected to establish rules and regulations which must be followed.  If you can not act accordingly then you are not welcome.  Yes, the money hurts sometimes if we lose a student, but in my nearly 3 decades of teaching... If disrespect is allowed..... it runs off all your GOOD students!

A very important part of any Martial Art is respect, Kenpo is no different, so if it doesn't exist our studio then we are in trouble.  

This is a problem I lay on the head instructor's shoulders.  The leadership of the school plays an integral part of the atmosphere.

In my humble opinion it is a must in any studio.
:asian:


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## tunetigress (Mar 21, 2002)

I M O it is the quality and consistency of leadership that will eventually determine the success or failure of any program, Martial Art or any other.


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## Bob Hubbard (Mar 21, 2002)

Just wanted to make an observation, this topics had 200+ views, 20 replies, and 17 votes... all of the votes state yes.

Thats sad.  Question is, what should be done about it?  A lot of good ideas up there, but can we change the arts as a whole, or just our small niches?

I train in a relaxed school because its run in a friendly manner, however thats the adult classes.  The kids classes are run on a stricter 'good behavior' basis, and the parents seem to like it.

:asian:


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## stal0225 (Mar 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> 
> * Question is, what should be done about it?  A lot of good ideas up there, but can we change the arts as a whole, or just our small niches?
> 
> :asian: *



I think that's were it starts is with one small step.
Change is always something that is going to happen whether we like it or not. The only thing is it didn't happen over night and it's not going to change back over night either.

One student, One school, One System at a time i guess.

Later


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 21, 2002)

I have control over my guys and organization.  I don't have that problem.  I can only touch those that are near me.  If you get close you'll feel the warmth.

As for everyone else..... I can't make them do anything.

:asian:


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## Klondike93 (Mar 21, 2002)

> I have control over my guys and organization



What prompted you to start your own organization and not just go with what was there or stay in the IKKA? 

:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 21, 2002)

Mrs. Parker is nice but knows nothing about Kenpo.  She has no promotional powers or knowledge...... getting promoted by her  is like getting promoted by one  of my students parents - and the rest of the Black Belts that the IKKA has are the same.  I rank or know as much or more than they so that was not an option......... NOT FOR ME......THERE IS NO CREDIBILITY THERE!

Others that I spoke with had visions of their own..... so off I went.

I am very happy to be able to do what I'm doing how I'm doing it.   

:asian:


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## Rob_Broad (Mar 21, 2002)

I gotta know who said they don't see a problem?  My second question is how long have they been trainng?


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## Kirk (Mar 21, 2002)

Did you hold a position with the IKKA when you left? 
A lot of your counterparts gave themselves a higher rank
when THEY left the IKKA, how come you didn't?


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## Klondike93 (Mar 21, 2002)

There's a good question GD. How come you haven't done the promotion thing?  You could some of your seniors together and test and get kicked up a rank. Or is it that rank is not important it's the person.


:asian:


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## stal0225 (Mar 21, 2002)

Well my children and i have movie night on Thrusday nights and of course we watched Dragon The Bruce Lee Storry for the umpteenth time.


Bruce Said a belt is only good for holding up your pants.

It's what's inside that counts.



Later


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## Kirk (Mar 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by stal0225 _
> Bruce Said a belt is only good for holding up your pants.




So did Mr Miyagi :rofl:


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Klondike93 _
> *There's a good question GD. How come you haven't done the promotion thing?  You could some of your seniors together and test and get kicked up a rank. Or is it that rank is not important it's the person.
> :asian: *



Well if you knew me, you would understand that rank is not what I am about.  Kenpo Knowledge is.  The Belt does not nor has not limited me in that quest.  I was a higher rank than many when Mr. Parker died and was asked a few times to go for promotions, the first was in '91 at the IKKA Brown an Black Training camp.... but there was not anyone there with the exception of Frank Trejo, John Sepulveda and Bob Liles that I would even consider to sign my certificate, besides to go to 6th at that time I felt was a disrespect to Mr. Parker....... all of us that were 5th and higher didn't NEED the rank we should have had a 1 year moratorium in his honor which I did (as it turned out for 11 years).  To just promote yourself is flat wrong in my book, those that did it ..... well they did what they wanted to ...... but I don't have to follow.  I was then asked a few years ago by Mr. LaBounty to test for 6th but was not  ready in my mind at that time (I'm not sure I am now either lol).  But Kenpo goes on and rank is a part of it more for my students than myself   What I know is not governed by my belt (even though many think that the number of stripes is a sign of what you know..... or should) trust me, it is not.   I feel comfortable just learning and teaching more and more Kenpo.   If the world wouldn't have such a heavy requirement on rank there probably wouldn't be any.  LOL

:asian:


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## Klondike93 (Mar 22, 2002)

I asked the question, but I knew the answer before hand.
I knew you would say that "rank is not what I am about".
I just got that feeling about you form what i've read and what you've posted here and the other forums I've seen you in.
Mr. Parker would truely be proud of you today sir.
I too am a man not about rank, but knowledge, kenpo knowledge as you put it. I have been a 1st dan since 1987 for that reason, stripes don't make the belt. I have been asked to test  lately but unless it's in kenpo, it just has no merrit to me. Once I get to black in kenpo I doubt I'll test any higher, but that doesn't mean I won't continue to learn or take instruction from my current kenpo teacher, Brad Scornavacco. 
With respect, salute.

:asian:


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## Robbo (Mar 22, 2002)

> I have been a 1st dan since 1987 for that reason, stripes don't make the belt. I have been asked to test lately but unless it's in kenpo, it just has no merrit to me. Once I get to black in kenpo I doubt I'll test any higher



14 years to learn 2nd degree material tells me three things,
a) you are very, very, very good at the 2nd degree mat'l
b) you are learning the mat'l at a very slow pace
c) you have learned the mat'l, dismissed the grading and are learning beyond your rank

This quote is a double edged sword. Ranking once the complete system is learned is based on contributions and time spent in the art(s). Once you have learned the complete system it is entirely up to you how you progress and grow as a martial artist. I also know that to a certain point after black belt the ranking system is not as important as the kyu belt system, which is as it should be since as a experienced practitoner you are learning what Kenpo is truly about.

With all that said, if there is more technical information to be learned and you have to grade to the other levels of black to learn it then pursue the knowledge to your fullest extent. To say you have finished learning the Kenpo system at 1st black is not the wisest thing to say. If you are learning 3rd,4th,etc mat'l while being a 1st degree that is not the greatest situation either since you are working outside the framework and it might be seen as favouritism by the other students. Work on your required mat'l, become proficient at it, grade with it to show you have learned it and then go on to the next level of mat'l to be learned.  After there is no more technical (required) material to learn then you can sit back and investigate the different aspects and permutations of Kenpo while having the full system to draw on. At this point rank should not matter. But if a credible authority recognizes your acheivements and you beleive in the people on that panel then by all means grade for the rank and be happy that someone is recognizing your efforts.

I'm sorry if the post came across harsh but I've heard black belts in my school say rank isn't important but yet they show up once a week, their technique never improves and take 5-10 years to go up in rank. If you are practising seriously and learning the mat'l you cannot help yourself, you will be ready to test in the 2, 3, 4 year time frame between belts. Take it for what it is, a very serious/happy celebration to show that you deserve to have the opportunity to go the next level of proficiency.

Thank-You,
Rob
:asian:


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## Klondike93 (Mar 22, 2002)

"To say you have finished learning the Kenpo system at 1st black is not the wisest thing to say"

No I guess it's not the wisest thing to say, I should have worded it better I guess. Getting all the material up to Black is the first step but there are more after that, a lot more. My only point is that rank holds no facination to me or I'd have been promoted to 3rd, 4th or 5th degree by now. I want to learn all I can in kenpo but being 41 I doubt I ever will. I will do what my instructor thinks I should do as far as testing goes.

"14 years to learn 2nd degree material tells me three things, 
a) you are very, very, very good at the 2nd degree mat'l 
b) you are learning the mat'l at a very slow pace 
c) you have learned the mat'l, dismissed the grading and are learning beyond your rank "

Closest would be C I supose. I've had all the material for a 2nd degree in TKD since 90 or 91, but because I left the ITF I felt no need to worry about testing for it. In TKD once you get past the black belt requirements the only thing left to go through are the forms. In some circles all the stuff I know was good up to 3rd degree, but in the organization I was in it was only good for 2nd.
What to do, what to do.

:asian:


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## tunetigress (Mar 22, 2002)

If being over 40 limits what you can learn in Kenpo, then I guess I will be in BIG trouble!  NOT!!!!  LOL


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## Klondike93 (Mar 22, 2002)

It's just me wishing I would have stayed with what I started 14 years ago instead of just standing by waiting.  I never realized it had been that long since I was first introduced to American Kenpo  .  I just kept waiting and hoping for someone to open a school close to home and here it is 14 years later and I still have travel 60 miles a day to learn...... 
Oh well, the other alternatives were either 52 or 80, one way, that's just too far and would wear me out.   


:asian:


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## Kirk (Mar 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Klondike93 _
> 
> *It's just me wishing I would have stayed with what I started 14 years ago instead of just standing by waiting.  I never realized it had been that long since I was first introduced to American Kenpo  .  I just kept waiting and hoping for someone to open a school close to home and here it is 14 years later and I still have travel 60 miles a day to learn......
> Oh well, the other alternatives were either 52 or 80, one way, that's just too far and would wear me out.
> ...




What rank do you hold in Kenpo, and how long ago did you start
training in Kenpo?


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## tunetigress (Mar 22, 2002)

Klondike, I am 45, disabled, completely housebound, and female, and I STILL study Kenpo with everything I got.  Hun, just remember, there is more than one way to pluck a chicken, just make damn sure you are sitting at that table when dinner is served!


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## Blindside (Mar 22, 2002)

Klondike posted:
"I just kept waiting and hoping for someone to open a school close to home and here it is 14 years later and I still have travel 60 miles a day to learn...... Oh well, the other alternatives were either 52 or 80, one way, that's just too far and would wear me out."

Boy do I identifiy with that, I drive 80 miles roundtrip for my kenpo lessons, 3 days a week.  I figure that I've put about 60,000 miles on my truck over the last 5 years, just for kenpo. 

But then I don't have to deal with traffic, only two stoplights and  4 stop signs in 40 miles.  You gotta love Wyoming!

Lamont


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## tunetigress (Mar 22, 2002)

Yes, we still have to drive my 9 year old Medal winning daughter 30 miles into town for numerous Kenpo classes and training sessions still, even though I now train at home. And now I have changed systems and we have different instructors! Ya just cant win even when you're winning!!!   YIKES!!!


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## Klondike93 (Mar 23, 2002)

> What rank do you hold in Kenpo, and how long ago did you start



When my first kenpo instructor closed, I was working on my purple belt.
I've spent a lot of time trying to learn the techniques and forms on my own and I have most of the stuff through Blue belt.
My current kenpo instructor say's he'll be testing me soon to see where I'm at with what I know.  I used all the time in between using videos by Rick Fowler to try and learn some of it. It's hard to do when you don't have a training partner to practice on with them. The school where I teach at doesn't do very many kenpo techniques so I don't get to practice with much at all there.

:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 23, 2002)

Are you teaching Kenpo there?


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## Klondike93 (Mar 23, 2002)

No, the main curriculum is TKD kicking techniques and forms, kickboxing and grappling. There are a few kenpo techniques to learn but not very many, he didn't spend very long in the system (about a year and half).  Most of the kenpo comes from what I'm learning now.  


:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 24, 2002)

You poor thing..... that sounds like a fate worse than death!


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## Klondike93 (Mar 24, 2002)

Working on it, very hard, every day.  And it's all Mr. Parker's fault too   I say that because after I met him once, there hasn't been a day gone by I haven't thought of kenpo in some way.  

 :asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 24, 2002)

Who are you training in Kenpo with now...... refresh my memory

:asian:


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## Klondike93 (Mar 24, 2002)

Brad Scornavacco 

Scornavacco Family Karate Longmont, Co.

www.scornavacco.com/index.htm 

His instructor is Lee Wedlake


:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 24, 2002)

What rank is he and what rank are you under Wedlake?
:asian:


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## Klondike93 (Mar 24, 2002)

He's a 3rd under Wedlake
I have yet to test with Mr. Scornavacco, but he says soon I will be.
I have gone over all the techniques forms and sets up through blue belt. 

:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 24, 2002)

Thanks and good luck.

tell him Hi from me.

:asian:


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## Rob_Broad (Mar 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Klondike93 _
> 
> *He's a 3rd under Wedlake
> I have yet to test with Mr. Scornavacco, but he says soon I will be.
> ...



Good luck on the upcoming grading.


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## Klondike93 (Mar 24, 2002)

Thanks for the thoughts guys  

:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 24, 2002)

I think I met with Mr. Scornavacco in Chicago.... maybe not I can't actually remember.


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## Klondike93 (Mar 24, 2002)

From what he's told me, he's from Chicago and started there with Mr. Wedlake and when he moved to Florida he followed him down there.


:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 24, 2002)

that's what I understand as well.:asian:


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## Ty K. Doe (Mar 26, 2002)

I was at a tournament a couple of weeks ago in Illinoise.  There was a problem with students and parents crowding the gym floor (the gym was a bit small to begin with), so the host had asked that only competitors remain on the floor.  Guess what, five minutes later, nobody had even moved.  When some people began to complain that they couldn't see what was going on because so many people on the floor was standing, the host announced once again that only competitors are to be on the gym floor, and for all competitors to sit so others in the stands could see.  Very few people even flinched.  It got so bad that the tournament was delayed twice because nobody would leave the floor that wasn't supposed to be there.  I thought for sure the host of the tournament was going to run out and start kicking but.  Yet the tournament continued and nothing changed.


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## tunetigress (Mar 26, 2002)

Ty,   sadly that is yet another sign of our  modern "you can't tell  ME  what to do" attitude.  Tournament organisers can evidently have as much trouble with 'discipline' as many instructors do in their own schools with poorly behaved parents and their children.


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## Klondike93 (Mar 26, 2002)

I've been at many tournaments that were like that. It's terrible to be sitting in the stands and have to look at all the wannabes crowding the rings.

:asian:


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## tigerstorm (Mar 26, 2002)

I think we can all agree that the "might dollar" is one of the main enemies of todays martial arts instructor.  Whether it be the need for students to pay rent or the need to not harm in anyway students so as not to get sued.  We live in constant awareness that the parent coming to speek to us is pissed that we told there son to do pushups and no one elses.  I could be wrong but modern parents seem to feel that a karate school is an excellent place to have a child babysat.  I dont teach children (not because of previous statements, I dont have the patients to do it), but I  have seen changes in the past ten years that scare me.  I watched my own Instructor build a wall to seperate the studio from spectators so that children wouldnt be able to just run across the floor.  I miss the old day of being hit and hitting and pushing people, mentally and physically, but today you have to choose carefully who and where you do these things.  I remember hearing my Instructor called by his first name and lookign around wondering who in the hech these people where talking too, not because of disrespect but because as a young man I knew his first name, and still in the school I didnt realize who they meant.  Has school doen this to children, have parents, or should we use the age old "its society" crap.  I guess as martial arts instructors hired by parents to "babysit", like it or not we shoudl take this opportunity to try to remold the children and for that matter adults that coem into our schools.  If were lucky well be able to make the average person realize that when the spill coffee on themsleves, not to sue dunkin donuts because the coffee was hot.  Sounds dumb but I guess weve got a long way to go.
  Tigerstorm


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## Kirk (Mar 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by tigerstorm _
> 
> * Sounds dumb but I guess weve got a long way to go.
> *



That we do.  Before we even start travelling down that road,
we need to find a viable solution.


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## tigerstorm (Mar 26, 2002)

Ok short and sweet the solution lies in the only thing that we can directly effect and that is ourselves, or as I said earlier the instructors.  As Instructors we are the ones who the children will follow or listen to to some extent all we can do is enforce good upstanding rules about this kind of thing and hope that as there children follow the parents will have no use in yelling an screaming if there child is ok with an end result.
  Tigerstorm


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## stal0225 (Mar 27, 2002)

for all the responses guys. This has been quite interesting to say the least.


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 27, 2002)

Iv'e disqualified students for not having their unauthorized parents or instructors in the ring.

People know I'll do it again.  I then earned their respect and following  from   parents and instructors so they all help in any way they can.

They all cheer when someone is removed that shouldn't be there.

:asian:


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## Kirk (Mar 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *They all cheer when someone is removed that shouldn't be there.*



I know I would've too!


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## Roland (Mar 27, 2002)

....have to let an instructor do their job.
And it is the kind of job that takes time.
There are no instant quick fixes. 
It is these quick fix schools that I see as the real problem.
And really,there are more schools now then ever, right? 
I am sure there have always been schools out there that most would consider to be lacking is discipline, and others that are too strict. Because there are more of them now, and now more young children than ever, so our perspective has to grown too. 
Man, a lot of the 'old time' schools never had children, and some of the ones they did train, really just beat out the weaker students. 
If we are going to be so negative, we must also realize our roots are not squeaky clean, and there have been tremendous improvements as well.
:asian:


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## tunetigress (Mar 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Roland _
> 
> *..
> Man, a lot of the 'old time' schools never had children, and some of the ones they did train, really just beat out the weaker students.
> ...



Roland you have made an excellent point here.  I would like to add that teaching children is NOT the same as teaching 'small adults'.  They do not respond to threats, intimidation, or violence in the same manner as adults do.  After a couple of decades spent teaching adults and kids of all ages in the 'education' field, I can honestly say that it takes a truly caring,  patient and aware person to work with groups of children and actually manage to 'teach' them something. The roots of 'Public Education' are not squeaky-clean either.  After decades of research and program development, the public perception of the teaching profession is still far from positive.  Parents still blame the school system for the problems their children are having.  I can't see the Martial Arts faring any differently.  I think it is up to us as individuals to do whatever we can do to aid in the development of our youth, and if it takes explaining to an 'angry' parent why little Johnny had to do 50 push-ups, perhaps a parent can also be educated about manners and respect along the way as well.


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## Klondike93 (Mar 28, 2002)

> unauthorized parents or instructors in the ring.



Drop em with a side kick to the ribs and they'll stop coming in the ring   


:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Apr 1, 2002)

Now that is just plain mean!

1st disqualify their kid .... then you have a reason to justify your actions..... lol

:asian:


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