# At what point do you quit and accept defeat?



## Edmund BlackAdder (Aug 17, 2006)

This is a departure from my normal posts. I've enjoyed my time here, and despite some headbutting on occation have found the members here to be a rather compasionate lot, so, I decided to ask.

I have a friend (this fact may surprise some, but I do.) who has been dealing with some heavy stress. Family concerns that are based on aging parents not long for this world who are showing their age, if you will. A business that has consistently lagged behind his living needs, and his definition of 'success'. Health problems also are starting to be a constant concern, and the bill collectors are calling. Hope is fading fast for him, and it is showing.

At what point, do you give up the dream of being your own captain, and go back to slaving for another's dream?

When do you make the call?

I've always counciled him to keep his eyes on the prize, to keep on going, that I felt success was just around the corner for him. Sadly, success has so far eluded him, and he's just about run out of hope.

Is it time to quit?  Or are there words of wisdom and encouragement I can give to my friend? I know he wants his dream very bad, but the constant beating is seriously in danger of crushing his spirit. I would like to help my friend, but I start to lose hope myself.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 17, 2006)

Could he get a regular job on a part-time basis, to gain financial stability, and continue his own business part time, until he can maneuver into a position where it might be more viable full-time?


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## Sarah (Aug 17, 2006)

He does not need to 'give up' his dream, but maybe he needs to look at going about it a different way.

There is no shame in admitting ones current course is not working out and adjusting it to work in the here and now, but continuing to look down the road and working towards that goal!

Its not about stopping when an obstacle is dropped in our path, he just needs to find a way around it...but keep in mind that he needs to look after his health and wellbeing in the mean time, or else what is the point of the goal.

Good luck to him, if he wants it bad enough, he will make it happen!


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## terryl965 (Aug 17, 2006)

Edmond I'm sorry for your friend but also sorry to see you go from MT it has been a pleasure reading your post and you will sorely be missed.
Terry


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## Shaolinwind (Aug 17, 2006)

terryl965 said:
			
		

> Edmond I'm sorry for your friend but also sorry to see you go from MT it has been a pleasure reading your post and you will sorely be missed.
> Terry



Wait.. I'm not sure I gather what's going on.. Ed, you leaving?


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## Bigshadow (Aug 17, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> Could he get a regular job on a part-time basis, to gain financial stability, and continue his own business part time, until he can maneuver into a position where it might be more viable full-time?


First, Edmund, sorry to hear about your friend.  

I believe this is a good financial approach for your friend.  But first and foremost, your friend's health is paramount. For without his health, he is going to have a rougher go at things.  

Maybe if your friend gets his health under control, maybe get a good physical fitness routine going and managing his time so that he can fit the fitness into his daily life.  This will give him a brighter mental outlook on things, make him feel better, and stronger.  This may give him the vision to see his way out of the financial struggle he is in.  

Just a thought.   Health is fundamental to everything we do.


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## Paul B (Aug 17, 2006)

Edmund that really sucks for your buddy.

I know exactly how he's feeling..having gone through much of the same. 

Although,at some point in all of our lives,we all have to be "realists" and lay down the pro's and con's of future choices honestly. Nine times out of ten we really don't care for what that honesty shows us,but also..Nine times out of ten we will make the right choice by sucking it up and being responsible. 

This doesn't mean giving up what we want or need,or even where we want to be in the future..this means prioritizing. What's really important?

All we have is some time,man..that's it..time. Nobody knows how much or how little they have left..so use it wisely and decisively.


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## Blotan Hunka (Aug 17, 2006)

IMO theres nothing wrong with "slaving for another's dream" if by that you mean working a consistant job that pays the bills and relieves you of the stress of knowing when you are going to get that next paycheck.

Perhaps your friend needs to re-evaluate his goals and what he wants out of life and determine if his goals are attainable. If not I think its possible to find fulfillment in things other than money and financial/business success. My Dad probably dreamed of a much wealthier life for himself too, but I think he found happiness in an "average American" life working the old 9 to 5 with the house, kids, vacations, pastimes and hobbies he earned for himself and us.

If thats not what he wants than I guess he should just keep on plugging away. Is the dream worth the cost?


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## Bob Hubbard (Aug 17, 2006)

I don't think he's leaving, at least not yet.  Just posting differently.


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## shesulsa (Aug 17, 2006)

Edmund,

I am going to take a shot in the dark and assume your friend is in his thirties.

This is my take on life so far:

Teen years: learn about responsibility, capture one's independence, lose one's virginity.

Twenties:  Start life, start a career, play more, gather some conquests and become rather obnoxious and self-righteous about all that one knows

Thirties:  Crisis of self-importance and place in the world, goals and identity.

Forties:  reconciliation with goals, a new beginning on life.

The thirties, in my experience, were some of the sorriest times in my life - depressing, anxious, worrisome, confrontative ... lord! ... worse than high school.

I think as we get closer to 40, we 'grow up'.  It doesn't exactly mean ditching a dream but maybe looking at it a different way or from a different perspective.

If I'm correct, your friend probably feels that he has nothing good in his life.  But he has air in his lungs.  His health is in crisis, and he is rigid in his approach to healing himself.  He is probably having trouble with a relationship and maybe in love with someone else.  

The very first thing he must do is get a regular job.  If this dream venture of his is not working out, then he must find another way to make it work.  That might mean changing how whatever it is is funded, it's location, the purpose behind it.  He must be able to evaluate his skills and find employment appropriately.

Bottom line ... HE NEEDS A NEW PERSPECTIVE.

This involves a re-evaluation of his needs, his definition of success, and one big, fat break he generously gives to himself.

I think once he finds some gainful employment (outside of his dream, of course), some things will come more easily.

He needs to put his own life on a pedastal and remind himself that while he may (or may not) be surrounded by wonderful people, be financially successful, etcetera, that he must serve himself as he would serve his higher power since he is a vessel for his higher power.

Everyone's parents pass.  This will be devastating to him, but he will survive.  I think when my father passed away I felt a sense of legacy and strive to carry that forward.

Most important, you probably want to tell him that it's all good - he's gonna be okay as soon as he just takes the leap.  It's a leap of the heart and a leap of faith he must make.  Just hang in there and listen, and listen, and listen.  Get him out and about once in a while and listen some more.  Give him a good butt-kicking when he needs it, and ask him if he found a job yet.  The job, as you and I both know, will give him a stronger sense of purpose if he has a good perspective on the need for one.

Post again on how he's doing, Edmund.  And please feel free to post from your heart anytime.  :asian:


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## terryl965 (Aug 17, 2006)

Shaolinwind said:
			
		

> Wait.. I'm not sure I gather what's going on.. Ed, you leaving?


 
No I mis read his post about it being different than his normal routine. As far as your friend goes he need to re-elevaluate what is the priority right now, if he has time to get a part time job this may help to get ride of some of the financial burden that is upon him and also lets him keep one eye on his dreams.
I hope your not mad about my first post, I was angry over class today and should have been calm before posting.
Terry


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## Kacey (Aug 17, 2006)

Finding out that one's dreams are not coming true is always a hard realization to come to - but sometimes it means that the dream needs to change, or the timing of that dream.  Also, sometimes one can become so focused on a dream that even if it changes one doesn't notice.

If someone has a dream and it doesn't work out over a long period of time, then maybe the dream is the wrong one.  It's hard to tell from what you posted, but it appears that your friend has been attempting to start and maintain a business.  Perhaps if he puts that business on hold until his parents' health issues resolve themselves (either for the better or for the ultimate resolution), and gets a job with a regular paycheck, so that he can focus on his parents while they need him, then he will be more prepared and available, emotionally and financially, to attempt his dream again.  Without more details, it's hard to say much more - but do remind your friend that a dream attempted, and then delayed to be attempted again, is not the same as giving up on a dream.  Sometimes thing happen that are out of one's control, and the only thing to do is to go along with events until until one can once again control them.

Having a friend who is concerned about one's journey is invaluable, and no matter what course your friend chooses, or which way you counsel him to go, having friends like yourself, who care enough to provide support and reasoned advice will be worth more than anything else, regardless of which course he chooses.  Good luck to your friend, and continue to support him, as it sounds you have done in the past.


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## Lisa (Aug 17, 2006)

Moderator Note:

Thread moved as it is non martial arts related.

Lisa Deneka
MartialTalk Super Moderator


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## Jonathan Randall (Aug 17, 2006)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Edmund,
> 
> I am going to take a shot in the dark and assume your friend is in his thirties.
> 
> ...


 
Great post, Shesulsa!

Yes, Edmund, your friend needs to get a full time job - even if it is OUTSIDE OF HIS SKILLS AND INTERESTS. Also, he needs to evaluate WHAT'S PAYING in what he already does. I bettya that 80% of his efforts are going to projects that only provide about 20% of his income. Cut the 80% and use it to get a full-time job. Heck, if he's self-employed, he's probably working 60-80 hours a week as it is (if he's lucky to have so much time off as that) so cutting out that 80% leaves room for a forty-hour a week job - with time and energy to spare.

I gave up a dream before and got a full-time job (which I've held for fifteen years). The first few months sucked, but after that I found that financial security gave me more freedom than being my own boss ever did.

Your friend has my very best wishes. PM me ANYTIME!


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## Edmund BlackAdder (Aug 18, 2006)

Sometimes I think it is pride, or maybe fear that holds him back. I appreciate the kind words and advice and will reply more when I have a moment to put my thoughts in the proper order.  Thank you.


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## shesulsa (Aug 18, 2006)

Fear is as normal and natural as is love, jealousy, appreciation, glee.  Pride ... well ... pride is relevant, now isn't it?

One can take pride in the frankness with which one re-evaluates one's station, critically analyzes ones own life and actions, and in allowing humility to enter and encourage change.

Edmund ... you cannot and must not save your friend from heartbreak and disappointment.  But you can talk gently and frankly about these traits of fear and pride in him and, when he makes it through this, welcome him to the world. 

A colleague of mine waxed poetic about change when we faced a massive change in syllabus in our martial art.  Funny thing is he doesn't remember saying any of it.  He said, "If I were to resist change, I would be resisting life itself.  I would be resisting the sun from rising, the earth from turning, the flowers blooming, the rain falling, the snow melting ... babies from being born and souls from entering Heaven.  I would resist my lungs inflating and deflating, dreaming, the beginning of an embrace.  How can I resist life?  I cannot, therefor I will not resist this change."  I really like how he put it.

Good luck and good friendship, Edmund.  Curtsey to the friend.


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## Jade Tigress (Aug 18, 2006)

Both of Shesulsa's posts are right on the money. I can certainly relate to the ages...my 30's absolutely sucked...the worst decade of my life. Now I am 42, and I am gaining perspective on some situations I've been dealing with. Fear is a big factor in not being able to move forward. That is a tough one to overcome. As far as success's, remember successful people have many, many, failures before reaching "success". Determination is needed, perseverance, and a willingness to set Pride aside to accomplish long-term goals. The path to success may not look like what we think it should, a different route may need to be taken, a longer route than anticipated. But in the end, the goal is reached. :asian:


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## elder999 (Aug 18, 2006)

Jade Tigress said:
			
		

> Both of Shesulsa's posts are right on the money. I can certainly relate to the ages...my 30's absolutely sucked...the worst decade of my life. Now I am 42, and I am gaining perspective on some situations I've been dealing with. Fear is a big factor in not being able to move forward. That is a tough one to overcome. As far as success's, remember successful people have many, many, failures before reaching "success". Determination is needed, perseverance, and a willingness to set Pride aside to accomplish long-term goals. The path to success may not look like what we think it should, a different route may need to be taken, a longer route than anticipated. But in the end, the goal is reached. :asian:


 
What she said-
and:



> _If you can find a path with no obstacles, it probably doesn't lead anywhere._-Frank A. Clark


 
I'd say your friend has reached a _bend_ in his road, and bend isn't the _end_ unless you fail to make the turn.


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## MartialIntent (Aug 19, 2006)

Edmund BlackAdder said:
			
		

> This is a departure from my normal posts. I've enjoyed my time here, and despite some headbutting on occation have found the members here to be a rather compasionate lot, so, I decided to ask.
> 
> I have a friend (this fact may surprise some, but I do.) who has been dealing with some heavy stress. Family concerns that are based on aging parents not long for this world who are showing their age, if you will. A business that has consistently lagged behind his living needs, and his definition of 'success'. Health problems also are starting to be a constant concern, and the bill collectors are calling. Hope is fading fast for him, and it is showing.
> 
> ...


Plainly good advice already - I'd say you suggest to your friend to think a little more laterally rather than regarding this as a purely black and white issue. By that I mean, rather than relinquishing captaincy of the ship, suggest to them other options which mean they can continue to run their vessel whilst perhaps taking on fuel from other sources [part-time / consultancy type work etc.] Sometimes this is all that's needed to give a little breathing space and time to re-evaluate the business.

Of course, there is another aspect: have they truly put 100%, I mean *really* put 100% of themselves into that business? I've seen quite a few startup businesses that have languished not because of problems with product or service being offered but simply because the proprietor sat back and waited passively for the business to roll in rather than getting their sales suit [metaphorically or otherwise] on and getting their *** out and about.

Has your friend really been setting themselves realistic sales targets and sticking to them? Is your friend focussed enough on their product or do they have other "side" or pet projects which could be a distraction? Have they lost faith in their product? Or in themselves? Sometimes, all that's needed is a little positive self-talk, a little time out to refocus, get a proper plan in place and good, sensible, achievable targets. Perhaps they could as I say, take on a little extra consultancy-type work or part-time work as a short term supplement? Sometimes all that's needed is a little encouragement from a friend, or maybe by visiting a trade show or fair... Just some ideas.

Anyway, good luck to yourself. And your friend obviously.

Respects!


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## Jonathan Randall (Aug 19, 2006)

MartialIntent said:
			
		

> Plainly good advice already - I'd say you suggest to your friend to think a little more laterally rather than regarding this as a purely black and white issue. By that I mean, rather than relinquishing captaincy of the ship, suggest to them other options which mean they can continue to run their vessel whilst perhaps taking on fuel from other sources [part-time / consultancy type work etc.] Sometimes this is all that's needed to give a little breathing space and time to re-evaluate the business.
> 
> Respects!


 
Great point and great post! I wish I had put it so well myself.


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 19, 2006)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Edmund,
> 
> I am going to take a shot in the dark and assume your friend is in his thirties.
> 
> This is my take on life so far:



What I am about to do (* Compare is how we can depress ourselves *)



			
				shesulsa said:
			
		

> Teen years: learn about responsibility, capture one's independence, lose one's virginity.



Two out of three i snot too bad is it.  



			
				shesulsa said:
			
		

> Twenties: Start life, start a career, play more, gather some conquests and become rather obnoxious and self-righteous about all that one knows



Finished College - Full Time Job(s) and school
Started new Career 
Got Married

Tried to avoid conquests   and other than my marriage and thinking I was ready (* 20/20 hind sight *) I think I tired to avoid that as well.



			
				shesulsa said:
			
		

> Thirties:  Crisis of self-importance and place in the world, goals and identity.



Got Divorced (* Ex turned thirty right after I filed *)
Went for Fun - Bought Convertible and Motorcycle and 4X4 Truck  
Dated - Some for just friends, others to have fun, others for long term. 
No Kids - This seems to be a bigger problem for those around me.  Even though I like children a lot. 

Career stalled - in industry that is not doing well



			
				shesulsa said:
			
		

> Forties:  reconciliation with goals, a new beginning on life.



Looking at these and looking at not only having fun, but also what really is happiness and how to keep it or get more of it. 



			
				shesulsa said:
			
		

> The thirties, in my experience, were some of the sorriest times in my life - depressing, anxious, worrisome, confrontative ... lord! ... worse than high school.
> 
> I think as we get closer to 40, we 'grow up'. It doesn't exactly mean ditching a dream but maybe looking at it a different way or from a different perspective.
> 
> ...




I agree a new perspective would be good. :asian:


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