# Fighting a stronger opponent



## THE BIG EVIL (May 31, 2004)

Can anybooy give me any Tool,s Or ideas how I can beat a Bigger stronger opponent . 


Thanks


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## Ceicei (May 31, 2004)

What style do you practice?  When you say "tools" or "ideas", do you mean techniques, moves, or weapons?  Your questions are very broad and if you could clarify what you want to know, we can give more useful answers.

- Ceicei


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## theletch1 (May 31, 2004)

Most styles have techniques that will work better against someone larger than you.   The best technique that I've found that most have in common is conflict avoidance.  Barring that, CeiCei has hit the proverbial nail on the head.  Narrow down your question and then we can each give our OPINION of what would work.  I'm an aikido-ka so my suggestions would be much different than say, a kenpoist and theirs would be different from someone who studies arnis.  Best of luck.


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## OC Kid (May 31, 2004)

Walking away is always the best technique.


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## 8253 (May 31, 2004)

walking away should be tried first, if that dont work, focus on the joints and pressure points.  Or you could try getting in close with a flurry of shots and then backing off.  maybe if one of these happen to work the opponent will not want to contiue the fight.  And if that dosent work consider running really fast.


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## Zoran (Jun 1, 2004)

THE BIG EVIL said:
			
		

> Can anybooy give me any Tool,s Or ideas how I can beat a Bigger stronger opponent .
> 
> Thanks



Well assuming you are talking about self defense and not some sort of sport or other "I'll meet you behind the building" type of nonsense. Hit hard, hit first, and hit them were it hurts _(vital targets; throat, eyes, and etc.)_.

Also, you should note that you won't find the magic tech on the forum. Only proper training will do that.


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## Shu2jack (Jun 1, 2004)

> Hit hard, hit first, and hit them were it hurts _(vital targets; throat, eyes, and etc.)_.


 
I agree. I don't care how strong you are, the eyes, throat, temple, etc. can not really be strengthened. You have to strike fast, hard, and mercillessly.


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## MichiganTKD (Jun 1, 2004)

Avoid the abdomen if possible. Too easy to make that strong. Better to contact the face, temple, eyes, groin, thigh, or knee. Everyone's head is the same, and you can do some real damage if you attack the knee joint and surrounding cartilage, especially from the side.


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## muaythaifreak (Jun 1, 2004)

A lot of people claim that size does not matter.  That unfortunately is just not so.  I was attacked by a monster of a man in a bar in Charlotte and although I have been studying muay thai for many years, he shrugged off my best attempts at showing him how hard I can hit.  I'm 6 ft tall 190 lbs this guy was at least 6'7" probably 280 or better.  I finally did come out on top, but I did not enjoy myself doing it.  If I had not had my Muay Thai training, he would have devoured me with pure brute strength.  But he liked to clinch, or at least he used to like to clinch.  I doubt he's quite as fond of it as he used to be.  However, all the punches and elbows to the head did nothing but make him bleed.  What finally stopped him were the knees to the ribcage.  He was not breathing so well when all was said and done.  I guess some people can just take a beating to the head better than others, may have something to do with bone structure or something.  All I know is that the first elbow I threw opened his eye really well.  He just got angrier at it.  It probably would have taken the fight out of most people, would have ko'd a lot of people.  Bigger guys have an advantage, but they are not invincible.  By the way, I am not in the habit of getting into bar fights, this was unavoidable and escalated to physical force despite my best efforts at deescalation.  He just wanted to fight someone and he picked me.  I hope it never happens again, I really do not enjoy hurting people.  Nor do I enjoy getting hurt, and I did not walk away unscathed by any means.  Plus now I may end up in court over it.  Probably will.


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## Tgace (Jun 1, 2004)

Pepper Spray works pretty well.


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## loki09789 (Jun 1, 2004)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Pepper Spray works pretty well.


So do sticks, stones, arrows, guns.... technology and ingenuity developed through history because of just such a necessity.  How do you deal with a stronger business opponent?  Improve your production, customer service.... all technology.  How do you deal with a stronger job candidate opponent?  Focus the attention on your passion, cooperation/teamwork skills, bring up your sense of work ethic and desire for personal best....

The basic tenet is be smarter.  This even holds true for military doctrine.  If you are facing a stronger (numerical superiority, firepower superiority) opponent you rely on tactics and not strength.  Guerilla warfare, insurgency, strategic targeting, supply lines, ambushes....  Sounds like the same basic mentallity of the individual artist when facing the stronger fighter - smarts and skill.  Strength is a big dea if you let it be.  Otherwise it is just one of the characterstics of the enemy just like speed, skill, endurance....


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## OULobo (Jun 1, 2004)

My Pops used to say "Poke 'im in da eye, kick 'im in the knackles, and punch 'im in the face." Seems like common sense to me. I prefer to see what is around exhaust all reasonable non-violent options and then take Dad's advice, but replace the punch with a palm strike to save my knuckles.


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## Baytor (Jun 1, 2004)

To paraphrase the horrible movie "Roadhouse":

"Be nice until it's time to not be nice."
"I doesn't matter how big a guy is if you take out his knees."

I wish I remembered important stuff the way I can remember stupid crap like movie quotes...would have had better grades in college.
 :shrug:


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## Tony (Jun 4, 2004)

If I were forced to fight a stronger person I think I would probably go for the throat, eyes, groin and knees and shins. But I would have to make sure I am faster than he is and that he can't touch me! I'm only 5'7 about 150 pounds but it is possible to defeat a stronger opponent, you just have to think more intelligent than him.


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## MichiganTKD (Jun 4, 2004)

It also depends on what you mean by fighting. If you mean free fighting, strong guys tend to be slower because they want to contact you hard, and consequently tighten up more. Tend to be anyway. Obviously you don't want to contact a classmate in the groin or eyes. I have found a couple of things that work for me:
1. Work on speed and distance-be so fast that he has a hard time touching you and stay out of his range.
2. Work on defense. Let him attack first, get back out of his range and draw him off balnce, then attack before he can recover
3. Target his head. He may have abs and arms of steel, but his head and face are the same as yours. Years ago, I sparred a guy who weighed about 500 pounds. Any stomach shot to him would just bounce off. He did a front kick, I countered with a back roundhouse that caught his temple. The fight was over. Fortunately he was a nice guy about it.
For self defense, I follow the philosophy that there will always be a target open, regardless of how he positions himself. If his are up, attack his knee or groin. Do not fight him directly, practice evading and then attacking available targets. 
For example, in close attack the eyes, throat, nose. Headbutt if necessary. You can also knee the groin. Be careful though-most guys will instictually protect that area. The inner and outer thigh works well too.


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## bluenosekenpo (Jun 4, 2004)

IamBaytor said:
			
		

> To paraphrase the horrible movie "Roadhouse":
> 
> "Be nice until it's time to not be nice."
> "I doesn't matter how big a guy is if you take out his knees."
> ...



I've never known anyone that could actually quote from Roadhouse. Scary.


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## Cryozombie (Jun 4, 2004)

Stay out of his line of attack, while keeping yourself in line to attack.


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## 7starmantis (Jun 4, 2004)

bluenosekenpo said:
			
		

> I've never known anyone that could actually quote from Roadhouse. Scary.


HAha, me and my old roomate from college can actually hold full conversations with quotes from Roadhouse! 

OK, your right...very scary!!

7sm


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## Baytor (Jun 4, 2004)

I like to think that being scary like that is a good way to keep larger opponents from attacking.


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## DeLamar.J (Jun 23, 2004)

THE BIG EVIL said:
			
		

> Can anybooy give me any Tool,s Or ideas how I can beat a Bigger stronger opponent .
> 
> 
> Thanks


Learn martial arts. We all practice martial arts so we are able to beat a bigger, stronger opponent.


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## hedgehogey (Jun 23, 2004)

Do NOT attempt to kick his face, nuts or knees. The former is dangerous, the latter are unreliable (excepting the knees if he's very fat). 

Best advice? Train hard. Spar full contact. Lift weights. The bigger, stronger man has a big advantage. Anyone who tells you size doesn't matter is an idiot. 

IF you have some grappling skill, the best place to be is to put him on the ground.

But hard work is definetely required, and no tips you get on the internet are going to make much of a difference.


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## ppko (Jun 27, 2004)

THE BIG EVIL said:
			
		

> Can anybooy give me any Tool,s Or ideas how I can beat a Bigger stronger opponent .
> 
> 
> Thanks


In my oppinion learning how to use pressure points from a skilled practitioner is your best choice to taking down someone bigger than you.

PPKO


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## Littledragon (Jun 27, 2004)

THE BIG EVIL said:
			
		

> Can anybooy give me any Tool,s Or ideas how I can beat a Bigger stronger opponent .
> 
> 
> Thanks


In a real self defense situation strength does not matter that much. For example no matter how strong you are if you side kick the knee cap or use a Muay Thai kick to the nerve in the leg or kick to the groin they will still feel it. When you are on the ground strength dimenishes so I would not trade punches with a stronger guy but try to take out his legs clinch and choke him out.

Stirkes and kicks are very effective but you want to watch out so he does not close the distance and grab them, if I was fighting a bigger and stronger guy I would take out his legs and get him to the ground.

Tarek


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## Kevin Walker (Jun 27, 2004)

ppko said:
			
		

> In my oppinion learning how to use pressure points from a skilled practitioner is your best choice to taking down someone bigger than you.
> 
> PPKO



Technique, technique, and more technique.  I have defeated guys much physically stronger than myself by relying on the technique of my style.  Most martial art styles are designed to counter brute strength with method, and it works.

BUT, if you encounter an adversary who is equally skilled, then the stronger of the two will win.  That is the only time a physically stronger opponent should win.  So make sure you practice a lot!


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## KungFuWarrior (Jun 27, 2004)

THE BIG EVIL said:
			
		

> Can anybooy give me any Tool,s Or ideas how I can beat a Bigger stronger opponent .
> 
> 
> Thanks




If your talkin about a grappling situation my instructors theory (which has been proven many times) is "technique will always win over strength" so practice proper technique.  If your talkin about street fighting hit em fast, hit em hard, and hit em where it counts (eyes, groin, throat, knees, ect.) hope this helps. :asian:


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## Tony (Jun 29, 2004)

In my class whenever we do any kind of self defence application our instructor will make us partner up with someone of the same relative height and strength, but how practical is this if you are confronted by someone much bigger and stronger than you?  I remember when I was just a kid I was bullied my other guys much bigger than me. A lot of people out there rely on their size to intimidate people but what a wake up call when they get knocked on their a r s e by someone much smaller.


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## Mark Weiser (Jun 29, 2004)

In my years of experience there is only one thing to say about fighting a stronger opponent. "OUCH" is a good word to use lol. Anyway there is one simple principle to use in fighting a stronger opponent. You have to use his strength against him and redirect away from you and if possible back at him. That is why Aikido and Judo have excellent movements in dealing with this very situation. 

The use of Torque in using Ju Jitusu type movement requires the use of some strength and this is not an option when dealing with someone with superior strength. So as we use to say out on the street "Someone get me the equalizer aka bat, brick, knife, gasp a weapon how dare ya lol" 

Hey I rather go home and kiss the wife instead of waking up in ICU or worse not coming home at all. 

Sincerely,
Mark E. Weiser


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## OC Kid (Jun 29, 2004)

I still like saying Im sorry whether I did anythingor not and buying him a drink  and both of us walking away friends or at least being at peace ith each other.

But if it came to combat I would take my enemies wheels out. Even the most expenseive car, biggest truck or most powerful tanks cant do anything if it cant move.
Next I would go for the eyes because if my enemy cant see me he cant strike me.
But like I told some kids who were going to fight the other day in the park over a soccer game. " Dont fight over a stupid game about points when the game is a practice game. The only time you should fight is for your life or money. Everything else it is a waste. It is better to remain friends than to be each others enemy.
So they didnt fight .
I saw them this week playing soccer together haveing fun as friends should, laughing and joking together.


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## mcjon77 (Jun 29, 2004)

Here are some things that I have learned from almost always BEING the bigger, stronger, opponent. It is a little long, but bear with me:

My fighting strategy was usually to let my opponent come to me (if I chase him my size becomes a disadvantage, as I am usually slower than him and tire more easily). Once they come in for a commited attack, I attack as well to close the distance and grab hold of them. I relied on the fact that I could do one and two step lunges much faster than my opponent would expect, and I have very long arms. I may usually take a punch or a strike on the way in, but one is almost never enough to stop me, unless they were hitting a vital area. Even then, if shook just shake off the pain and let rage and momentum carry me, I can still come out on top.

Body shots don't really bother me unless the person is hitting some kind of nerve or pressure point. Head shots worked better in that it put me more on the defensive.

I've heard a few people mentioning taking the opponent to the ground to neutralize his size and strength advantage. I don't know the theory behind this, but from my personal experience, this is usually a really bad idea. People seem to think that with some ground fighting training they can take out a bigger much easier. This is true ONLY if he has had virtually no ground training. The problem is that a larger, stronger person needs to learn MUCH MUCH less grappling to be able to completely neutralize a smaller person.

One of the things that got me interested in jujitsu was when I went to check out a class and a 120 lb female student asked to grapple with me. I probably outweighed her by about 150lbs, but because I had never been exposed to chokes, when she slapped one on I had no idea what to do and was tapped out easily. By the way, I thought it was great that she could do this, it let me know that there was something here to learn. However, after the instructor showed me how to tuck in my chin to keep from getting choked out, and how to curl my arm to counter arm locks as well as a few basic positions (which took a total of MAYBE 2 or 3 classes to learn) even he had an extremely hard time submitting me.


The two biggest advantages a smaller opponent had over me was his speed and endurance. Taking me to the ground (or should I say, allowing me to go to the ground :wink1: ) pretty much threw both of those advantages out of the window. On the ground his speed means almost nothing (unless he is a REALLY good grappler) and If I wind up on top, he is going to expend a ton more energy than me trying to gain position. 

In multiple situations, when I thought my opponent was trying to take me down I wouldn't resist. Rather I would use my energy and weight to "help" him take me down (usually with greater speed and force than he was expecting or could handle) and focus on falling into a top position. From there I could rest while my opponent struggles. I could use whatever locks or strikes that I wanted to finish it.

So what do you think? I hope this helps you guys. 
Jon


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## jeffkyle (Jun 29, 2004)

mcjon77 said:
			
		

> Here are some things that I have learned from almost always BEING the bigger, stronger, opponent. It is a little long, but bear with me:
> 
> 
> So what do you think? I hope this helps you guys.
> Jon



I think this is very interesting and well said.  I like your attitude and mentallity.  All you have said is definitely something to think about...from all sides.  
Thanks!


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## bluenosekenpo (Jun 29, 2004)

mcjon77 said:
			
		

> Here are some things that I have learned from almost always BEING the bigger, stronger, opponent. It is a little long, but bear with me:
> 
> So what do you think? I hope this helps you guys.
> Jon


what a refreshing point of view, thanks for the input, any other large folks out there want to share their opinion?


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## Littledragon (Jul 1, 2004)

In my opinion the best ways to beat a stronger opponent is stirke the vital points. Strike the groin, eyes, throat, knees etc..

Also when you are on the ground size deminishes so I would try to get the opponent on the ground.


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## rompida (Jul 1, 2004)

Littledragon said:
			
		

> Also when you are on the ground size deminishes so I would try to get the opponent on the ground.




Are you sure????

I'm a somewhat experienced grappler, and weigh about 165 lbs.  I've gone against guys who were much bigger than me.  AND YOU DO NOT WANT TO TAKE THEM TO THE GROUND.  What if there is more than one attacker? What happens if you are on the bottom?  You're pretty well screwed.  They can pretty much smother you to keep you from maneuvering.  For a big guy, they can keep their base very easily.  Not too mention that the thing that you want to avoid - their strength - becomes very hard to avoid if you are on bottom.  I know a big guy who got taken to the ground, wound up on top, and simply smothered/pushed on the guys chest until he passed out.  Kind of like wrestling with a boa constrictor. Don't kid yourself into thinking that your grappling/wrestling will handle it.  When we grapple, we tend to NOT fight dirty.  Out on the street, all rules are out.  

My advice - footwork & outmaneuver against a big guy.  If you are in small rooms/areas, it will be hard.  So make your fight end in the first few seconds.  A confined space is his homecourt advantage.


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## hedgehogey (Jul 1, 2004)

And you seriously expect to KO a huge 'roidhead? 

I'll say this: The one type of big person I wouldn't usually go to the ground with is a fat person. That's cause they're usually slow on their feet, and unlike regularly built people, you really can kick at their knees, because of the stress that being fat puts on them. 

But a musclehead is a different story. I aint trying to trade blows with a man with huge biceps. One lucky shot and it's all over for you. Take him to the ground or take his back, but don't think you can just avoid  every shot he throws.


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## rompida (Jul 1, 2004)

Well, I agree that you don't want to go shot for shot with a big dude.  That's why I said footwork.  Evade, and like you said, if you can get behind him, then I might go for a grapple situation.  But not head to head grappling.  I think if you are a small to average build, you should be using technique and speed against the muscle.  

Personally, I'd be interested in hearing what more of you big guys think.  What has worked against you?  What ranges are you most UNcomfortable fighting in?  Anyone????


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## Littledragon (Jul 1, 2004)

rompida said:
			
		

> Are you sure????
> 
> I'm a somewhat experienced grappler, and weigh about 165 lbs. I've gone against guys who were much bigger than me. AND YOU DO NOT WANT TO TAKE THEM TO THE GROUND. What if there is more than one attacker? What happens if you are on the bottom? You're pretty well screwed. They can pretty much smother you to keep you from maneuvering. For a big guy, they can keep their base very easily. Not too mention that the thing that you want to avoid - their strength - becomes very hard to avoid if you are on bottom. I know a big guy who got taken to the ground, wound up on top, and simply smothered/pushed on the guys chest until he passed out. Kind of like wrestling with a boa constrictor. Don't kid yourself into thinking that your grappling/wrestling will handle it. When we grapple, we tend to NOT fight dirty. Out on the street, all rules are out.
> 
> My advice - footwork & outmaneuver against a big guy. If you are in small rooms/areas, it will be hard. So make your fight end in the first few seconds. A confined space is his homecourt advantage.


Yes size does diminish on the ground, you really think on the ground size matters? Look how quickly you can make a 245 lbs guy tap out with an armbar. The one who proved that size does not matter is a guy called Royce Gracie don't know if you have seen him in action.


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## Littledragon (Jul 1, 2004)

rompida said:
			
		

> Are you sure????
> 
> I'm a somewhat experienced grappler, and weigh about 165 lbs. I've gone against guys who were much bigger than me. AND YOU DO NOT WANT TO TAKE THEM TO THE GROUND. What if there is more than one attacker? What happens if you are on the bottom? You're pretty well screwed. They can pretty much smother you to keep you from maneuvering. For a big guy, they can keep their base very easily. Not too mention that the thing that you want to avoid - their strength - becomes very hard to avoid if you are on bottom. I know a big guy who got taken to the ground, wound up on top, and simply smothered/pushed on the guys chest until he passed out. Kind of like wrestling with a boa constrictor. Don't kid yourself into thinking that your grappling/wrestling will handle it. When we grapple, we tend to NOT fight dirty. Out on the street, all rules are out.
> 
> My advice - footwork & outmaneuver against a big guy. If you are in small rooms/areas, it will be hard. So make your fight end in the first few seconds. A confined space is his homecourt advantage.


Also I wouldn't want to be outmaneuvering a 250 lbs strong guy, I would not risk standing up with any big guy, I would try to take out their legs and stirke them to the knee leg and groin but if all else fails I would want to get them on the ground and sink in a choke, no matter how big or strong you are you will feel the choke and you will feel our arm being broken if I sink in a Kimura lock or an ankle lock.


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## rompida (Jul 1, 2004)

Yes, I am very familiar with him.  I've had the pleasure of training with him a few times.  But... I'm not him.  I'm not even close to that level of proficiency.  And, no offense, but I'm guessing your not either.  So, what then is the "average" martial artist supposed to do?  Me, I'm staying up.  If things get to hairy, his friend jumps in, knife gets pulled, whatever- I'll just run.  Not ashamed to say it either!! 

Besides, a quote from a Gracie himself....  Rickson was asked in an interview what his technique would be against multiple attackers.  His response was "my walther (sp?) pistol"


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## Littledragon (Jul 1, 2004)

rompida said:
			
		

> Yes, I am very familiar with him. I've had the pleasure of training with him a few times. But... I'm not him. I'm not even close to that level of proficiency. And, no offense, but I'm guessing your not either. So, what then is the "average" martial artist supposed to do? Me, I'm staying up. If things get to hairy, his friend jumps in, knife gets pulled, whatever- I'll just run. Not ashamed to say it either!!
> 
> Besides, a quote from a Gracie himself.... Rickson was asked in an interview what his technique would be against multiple attackers. His response was "my walther (sp?) pistol"


Hey I am on your side to becaus I am a 4x international TKD champion as well so for 11 years I have been trained in kicking. All I am saying is that IF you are ever in the ground which 95% of all street fights end up at it would be smart to know some grappling.


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## MichiganTKD (Jul 1, 2004)

Littledragon said:
			
		

> Hey I am on your side to becaus I am a 4x international TKD champion as well so for 11 years I have been trained in kicking. All I am saying is that IF you are ever in the ground which 95% of all street fights end up at it would be smart to know some grappling.


What exactly does being a 4-time international Tae Kwon Do champion have to do with knowing effective self defense? Aside from the fact that you stated you were 16 years old. Therefore, you were a TKD champ internationally younger than 16 years old. What tournaments were these exactly and who were they through? I know there are many Tae Kwon Do Junior championships, and these are hardly demonstrations of effective self defense or fighting. It is young kids sparring under carefully controlled rules and conditions.
You also stated you trained in kicking for 11 years. That means you were practicing kicking as a 6 year old. No offense, but that's not really impressive. A 6 year old approaches martial arts as a game. Ain't too many 6 year old kids with impressive kicks.
Finally, you know 95% of fights end up on the ground. How exactly do you know this? Do you get into fights regularly? Do you hang out in bars?


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## rompida (Jul 2, 2004)

Littledragon said:
			
		

> Hey I am on your side to becaus I am a 4x international TKD champion as well so for 11 years I have been trained in kicking. All I am saying is that IF you are ever in the ground which 95% of all street fights end up at it would be smart to know some grappling.




I think he was just giving us his background to emphasize that he wouldn't want to go to the ground either.  But I do agree littledragon, that it is VERY smart to know some grappling.  I just wouldn't be in a hurry to grapple with a big guy.  Having the knowledge doesn't mean you should rush to use it.

I'd still like to hear from some more big guys.  Come on, where's all you 6 foot, 250+ lb  guys??  Please enlighten us.


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## hedgehogey (Jul 2, 2004)

rompida said:
			
		

> Well, I agree that you don't want to go shot for shot with a big dude. That's why I said footwork. Evade, and like you said, if you can get behind him, then I might go for a grapple situation. But not head to head grappling. I think if you are a small to average build, you should be using technique and speed against the muscle.
> 
> Personally, I'd be interested in hearing what more of you big guys think. What has worked against you? What ranges are you most UNcomfortable fighting in? Anyone????


No, you're missing my point. There's two kinds of big, "fat" and "muscled". 

VS. Fatty, you can strike

VS. Muscly you definetely wanna take him down.


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## kenpo tiger (Jul 2, 2004)

mcjon77 said:
			
		

> Here are some things that I have learned from almost always BEING the bigger, stronger, opponent. It is a little long, but bear with me:
> 
> My fighting strategy was usually to let my opponent come to me (if I chase him my size becomes a disadvantage, as I am usually slower than him and tire more easily). Once they come in for a commited attack, I attack as well to close the distance and grab hold of them. I relied on the fact that I could do one and two step lunges much faster than my opponent would expect, and I have very long arms. I may usually take a punch or a strike on the way in, but one is almost never enough to stop me, unless they were hitting a vital area. Even then, if shook just shake off the pain and let rage and momentum carry me, I can still come out on top.
> 
> ...


As I am almost always the smaller opponent, since no other women in my school come to sparring (miss you, KM!), I read your post with great interest.  I, too, was taught technique, technique, technique in sparring initially and most times it serves me well in sparring.  In a real life situation - your groin to bring your head down, attack your head - gouge your eyes, whatever presents itself, your Adam's Apple (yes, that hurts, doesn't it.)  In short, all the nasties we are taught in kenpo which nice girls don't do -- unless you are a threat to me.  Going to the ground?  You'd be by yourself -- I'd be long gone and hopefully you'd be writhing in pain and/or unconscious by then.

Thanks for the pointers.  Hope I never ever have to use them.  :asian: KT


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## kenpo tiger (Jul 2, 2004)

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> What exactly does being a 4-time international Tae Kwon Do champion have to do with knowing effective self defense? Aside from the fact that you stated you were 16 years old. Therefore, you were a TKD champ internationally younger than 16 years old. What tournaments were these exactly and who were they through? I know there are many Tae Kwon Do Junior championships, and these are hardly demonstrations of effective self defense or fighting. It is young kids sparring under carefully controlled rules and conditions.
> You also stated you trained in kicking for 11 years. That means you were practicing kicking as a 6 year old. No offense, but that's not really impressive. A 6 year old approaches martial arts as a game. Ain't too many 6 year old kids with impressive kicks.
> Finally, you know 95% of fights end up on the ground. How exactly do you know this? Do you get into fights regularly? Do you hang out in bars?


Easy there.  He's just a kid.:asian: 

As impressive as tkd kicks are when done correctly and proficiently, if I were you Little Dragon, I'd try to avoid the fight and live to tell the tale.  It's simply not worth it.


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## Littledragon (Jul 2, 2004)

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> What exactly does being a 4-time international Tae Kwon Do champion have to do with knowing effective self defense? Aside from the fact that you stated you were 16 years old. Therefore, you were a TKD champ internationally younger than 16 years old. What tournaments were these exactly and who were they through? I know there are many Tae Kwon Do Junior championships, and these are hardly demonstrations of effective self defense or fighting. It is young kids sparring under carefully controlled rules and conditions.
> You also stated you trained in kicking for 11 years. That means you were practicing kicking as a 6 year old. No offense, but that's not really impressive. A 6 year old approaches martial arts as a game. Ain't too many 6 year old kids with impressive kicks.
> Finally, you know 95% of fights end up on the ground. How exactly do you know this? Do you get into fights regularly? Do you hang out in bars?


First of all from Police Records and since I am friends with the chief of Police in Rockville Maryland I asked the same thing, it is a PURE 100% FACT that ALL STREET FIGHTS end up on thr GROUND 95% of the time. Also yes in olympic TKD we do wear pads but in the black belt division it is full contact. I have won the Pan American Open twice which is countries from all over the world mainly the PAN AM region like Brazil, Argentina, etc.. I have won two others which I stated before in my introduction thread. Second when you sau their are alot of Junior champions and that is hardly demonstrating effective self defense, duh! Its a sport! Thats why I am training in Vale Tudo and sparring in the dojo against MMA fighters preparing to compete when I turn 17. I learn other arts such as BJJ and Aikido and JKD so I can know how to defend my self properly in a street situation. Also when I spar with no pads we go full contact so we are able to take hits so we can feel comfortable and not be so shocked if we get hit on the street.
I don't know what you have against me but it sounds like you are the one who needs to learn his stuff. I believe that you are so confident in your ONE style that you think it is superior against every one else's no offense but I really don't appreciate it you bashing me every time because of my age.

*That means you were practicing kicking as a 6 year old. No offense, but that's not really impressive. A 6 year old approaches martial arts as a game*. 

It aint a game for me anymore, I aint 6 anymore.


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## Littledragon (Jul 2, 2004)

kenpo tiger said:
			
		

> Easy there. He's just a kid.:asian:
> 
> As impressive as tkd kicks are when done correctly and proficiently, if I were you Little Dragon, I'd try to avoid the fight and live to tell the tale. It's simply not worth it.


Thank you I agree with you. Martial arts teaches one to avoid fights so I don't understand why I have to be in a street fight in order to get people's respect. Being involved in street fights when one can run away or avoid them is not displaying true martial arts.


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## Mark Weiser (Jul 3, 2004)

Well people from my studies around the martial arts world there is only one thing to say when going aganist a bigger and stronger opponent.

"Oh my God he has a gun!!! RUN!!" Equalizers are just that equalizing the chances of surviving the violent confrontation. Seriously Folks if you are in the need to fight a bigger opponent I suggest training under George Dillman. He teaches one touch knockouts. That would get the attention of a bunch of hoods lol. 

"HEY! He just took out Jimmy!!" Once you knock out the biggest dude near ya and then pull out your weapon because they will certainly be pulling thiers. 

However if possible Knock the biggest dude out and all the others see is the dust cloud after you turned 180 degrees and did your Jesse Owens impression is even better. 

Sincerely,
Mark E. Weiser


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## hedgehogey (Jul 3, 2004)

Do NOT do dillman's stuff. It is BS.


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## ppko (Jul 3, 2004)

hedgehogey said:
			
		

> Do NOT do dillman's stuff. It is BS.


NO Dillman stuff is not BS, it is proven effective, now BJJ great for tournaments, but just because you can win the UFC, Pride etc. does not make it street effective. Do you know any of the Gracies if so ask about George Dillman and many of them can attest to his stuff working.

PPKO


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## ppko (Jul 3, 2004)

Mark Weiser said:
			
		

> Well people from my studies around the martial arts world there is only one thing to say when going aganist a bigger and stronger opponent.
> 
> "Oh my God he has a gun!!! RUN!!" Equalizers are just that equalizing the chances of surviving the violent confrontation. Seriously Folks if you are in the need to fight a bigger opponent I suggest training under George Dillman. He teaches one touch knockouts. That would get the attention of a bunch of hoods lol.
> 
> ...


George is a great teacher and in my oppinion one of the all time greats go to a seminar and make your own decision about him.  George has many tapes and books related on PP's at www.dillman.com if you would like to know more about him.  I put my trust in him and any of his students before I would many people.  Most of his students have also trained with the late Remy Presas, and Wally Jay.

PPKO


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## Littledragon (Jul 3, 2004)

ppko said:
			
		

> NO Dillman stuff is not BS, it is proven effective, now BJJ great for tournaments, but just because you can win the UFC, Pride etc. does not make it street effective. Do you know any of the Gracies if so ask about George Dillman and many of them can attest to his stuff working.
> 
> PPKO


UFC and Pride is the closest competition to a street fight.


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## MichiganTKD (Jul 3, 2004)

Littledragon said:
			
		

> First of all from Police Records and since I am friends with the chief of Police in Rockville Maryland I asked the same thing, it is a PURE 100% FACT that ALL STREET FIGHTS end up on thr GROUND 95% of the time. Also yes in olympic TKD we do wear pads but in the black belt division it is full contact. I have won the Pan American Open twice which is countries from all over the world mainly the PAN AM region like Brazil, Argentina, etc.. I have won two others which I stated before in my introduction thread. Second when you sau their are alot of Junior champions and that is hardly demonstrating effective self defense, duh! Its a sport! Thats why I am training in Vale Tudo and sparring in the dojo against MMA fighters preparing to compete when I turn 17. I learn other arts such as BJJ and Aikido and JKD so I can know how to defend my self properly in a street situation. Also when I spar with no pads we go full contact so we are able to take hits so we can feel comfortable and not be so shocked if we get hit on the street.
> I don't know what you have against me but it sounds like you are the one who needs to learn his stuff. I believe that you are so confident in your ONE style that you think it is superior against every one else's no offense but I really don't appreciate it you bashing me every time because of my age.
> 
> *That means you were practicing kicking as a 6 year old. No offense, but that's not really impressive. A 6 year old approaches martial arts as a game*.
> ...


Do your parents know you train in Vale Tudo? If I were a parent, I would be very nervous if my kids were training in something like this.
Second, I don't have anything against your age. We all started somewhere. I do tend to see you as a bit of a know-it-all. Just my opinion. As a 16 year old kid, you have just started to live your life, much less lay claim to any sort of experience. I'm not saying you are totally inexperienced, just not the world-wise professional you claim to be sometimes.


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## Littledragon (Jul 3, 2004)

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> Do your parents know you train in Vale Tudo? If I were a parent, I would be very nervous if my kids were training in something like this.
> Second, I don't have anything against your age. We all started somewhere. I do tend to see you as a bit of a know-it-all. Just my opinion. As a 16 year old kid, you have just started to live your life, much less lay claim to any sort of experience. I'm not saying you are totally inexperienced, just not the world-wise professional you claim to be sometimes.


I know I am no wear near a world wise professional and never claimed that I was. Also yes my mom does know I train in Vale Tudo.


I respect your opinion as if every one else's lets try to cool down and be cool with eachother.

Tarek


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## MichiganTKD (Jul 3, 2004)

Well Tarek,

Although I admire your dedication to training, I can only "be cool" to you to a certain extent. Not because I don't respect your right to practice, but because you are approximately 20 years younger than me. We are simply on different levels. Despite what you may think, we are not equals. I am not pulling an ego trip by the way, but you are a teenage kid, and I am an adult with adult responsibilities, which you will also have eventually.
I am not demanding you respect me-respect must be earned. However, realize that it's never going to be "I respect you as a fellow and equal Tae Kwon Do practitioner". We are not equals-you are 20 years my junior and I treat you as such.


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## Nightingale (Jul 3, 2004)

MT MOD NOTE:

Keep it on topic please.

-Nightingale-
MT MODERATOR


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## ppko (Jul 3, 2004)

Littledragon said:
			
		

> UFC and Pride is the closest competition to a street fight.


Yes I agree to a certain extent, but there are rules there are no friends to help out either side and no chance of weapons.  You do not have to worry about taking someone to the ground in these competitions because there are no friends around.

PPKO

P.S. I have plenty of aquantances that are or have fought in the UFC Dan Severn, and Rich Franklin for instance.


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## Littledragon (Jul 3, 2004)

ppko said:
			
		

> Yes I agree to a certain extent, but there are rules there are no friends to help out either side and no chance of weapons. You do not have to worry about taking someone to the ground in these competitions because there are no friends around.
> 
> PPKO
> 
> P.S. I have plenty of aquantances that are or have fought in the UFC Dan Severn, and Rich Franklin for instance.


Very cool.


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## hedgehogey (Jul 3, 2004)

MichiganTKD: Considering that you believe in mystical tiger auras, you have no right to be so obnoxious and patronizing to littledragon.

PPKO: Dillman is a fraud, and the thousands of MMA events where "pressure point strikes" are legal just prove me right. Digging up links on this now.


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## ppko (Jul 3, 2004)

hedgehogey said:
			
		

> MichiganTKD: Considering that you believe in mystical tiger auras, you have no right to be so obnoxious and patronizing to littledragon.
> 
> PPKO: Dillman is a fraud, and the thousands of MMA events where "pressure point strikes" are legal just prove me right. Digging up links on this now.


And how will that prove that Dillman is a fraud I know GM Dillman and have trained with him on several ocassions and I currently train with one of his top three I know that he is not a fraud and there is no proof that you can show that will prove otherwise

PPKO


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## Kevin Walker (Jul 3, 2004)

Bruce Lee maintained that eyestrikes were the quickest way to end a fight, against anybody!  He also said to use a gun as a weapon of choice.

In fact, modern jiu-jitsu in Japan incorporates an automatic pistol as part of jiu-jitsu's repertoire of weapons (no more juttes or tonfas, etc.).


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## jfarnsworth (Jul 3, 2004)

hedgehogey said:
			
		

> MichiganTKD: Considering that you believe in mystical tiger auras, you have no right to be so obnoxious and patronizing to littledragon.



From my perspective I've been watching the whole thing from thread to thread. My opinion is that MichiganTKD is trying to teach him things. :asian:


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## hedgehogey (Jul 3, 2004)

ppko said:
			
		

> And how will that prove that Dillman is a fraud I know GM Dillman and have trained with him on several ocassions and I currently train with one of his top three I know that he is not a fraud and there is no proof that you can show that will prove otherwise
> 
> PPKO


Video proof: http://www.wijg.net/tasty.rm
 This guy claimed to be under dillman.
Mirror here: http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12660&highlight=dillman

Dillman seminar reviews:
http://bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10835
http://www.mma.tv/TUF/index.cfm?ac=ListMessages&PID=1&TID=433499&FID=1&p=99

Particurlarly interesing passage: 



> Go to http://www.dillman.com/videos.asp and you can download 22 short clips of Dillman K.O.'ing true believers.
> Notice the following: K.O. victims reaching back or slapping the mat to break their fall. Keeping their heads up to prevent them from striking the floor. People placing themselves into the sitted, crossed-legged position they use to revive the victim. People propping themselve up on an arm after being K.O'd. People who don't go down at all and have to be pulled down. Remember these are the true believers!


James randi blasts pressure point "fighting": 
http://bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8335

Some of PPKO's rather ridiculous claims from martialartsplanet: (http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15448)



> Kiai Jitsu using sounds for fighting/healing you can either look up Gary Rooks or go to www.kiaijitsu.com which is a products page by Song Pak I would trust either of them go to the seminars as they can teach you more than I can with Kiai.
> 
> Jodoryu Jujitsu is using the emotions of your opponent against them it was developed by T.A. Frazer I can't discuss to much on this until book #5 of the Dillman series comes out, for respect of T.A. Frazer. You could go to www.dillman.com and try and have T.A. Frazer do a seminar or check to see if he is holding any seminars in your area
> 
> ...


Dillman affiliates claiming the ability to KO with a yell:
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6622&highlight=dillman


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## ppko (Jul 4, 2004)

Video proof: http://www.wijg.net/tasty.rm
This guy claimed to be under dillman.
Mirror here: http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12660&highlight=dillman


Ok so a guy messes up and this proves Dillman a fraud how



Dillman seminar reviews:
http://bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10835
http://www.mma.tv/TUF/index.cfm?ac=ListMessages&PID=1&TID=433499&FID=1&p=99

Particurlarly interesing passage: 


So other people don't like Dillman ooh you are really doing good tell me something I don't know when you're as popular a Martial Artist as George than you are bound to have the jelousy out there



James randi blasts pressure point "fighting": 
http://bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8335


What does this prove oh wait I know ..............................................................nothing


Some of PPKO's rather ridiculous claims from martialartsplanet: (http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15448)


Have you tried these I thought not so do not judge until you have been a part I have made no outragous claims the Kiai Jitsu has been a part of the Martial Arts for hundreds of years. Jodoryu Jujitsu is a different story, but I can understand your fear in attending a seminar where you would be proven wrong and a video clip of you ending up on this forum.



Dillman affiliates claiming the ability to KO with a yell:
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6622&highlight=dillman Like I said before people mess some points don't work the on everyone sometimes you are off on the point big deal you have proved nothing with these claims.

PPKO


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## kenpo tiger (Jul 4, 2004)

jfarnsworth said:
			
		

> From my perspective I've been watching the whole thing from thread to thread. My opinion is that MichiganTKD is trying to teach him things. :asian:


I agree, but sometimes the delivery isn't exactly pedagogical. :asian:


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## ppko (Jul 4, 2004)

Hedgehogey,

I forgot to address people reaching back or slapping for the floor if you know anything about what we consider KO's than you would know that there are three levels that we go off of.
A stun to where the person is off balanced due to dissyness.
Where they fall but are not all the way out.
Finally whre they are completely out.

PPKO


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## lonecoyote (Jul 4, 2004)

about wanting larger people's opinions, I'm six foot and about 245, muscle but with a pot gut. I have trouble with lateral (side to side)  movement. If I blitz and don't catch you because you can move side to side quickly and then are fast in and out of the gap I'll have a lot of trouble. Size and strength are definitely advantages for me in the clinch,  and the one thing you don't want to do is get backed up against the ropes or a wall (I've noticed that it happens when people are trying to be too cute, and dance, focusing only on me and not ring or room awareness) or in a corner, because I won't let you out. The ground is a good place for a big guy too, with just a little technique, because I can use weight to pressure or smother.


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## lonecoyote (Jul 4, 2004)

One more thing, that last guy that really toasted me was a sport TKD guy, like Littledragon, because he had that movement laterally and in and out of the gap. couldn't get a handle on him.


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## tshadowchaser (Jul 4, 2004)

hedgehogey
 I am not going to take side in this discussion but I want to say that Mr. Dillman had legit credential in the martial arts before he started teaching pressure points. There for to call him a fraud could be a libel statement.
 Finding a few clips neither proves nor disproves anything except that the clips where made. You may see stuff that looks hooky or fabricated but if your not there its only your thoughts.
 Unless you know a person and their history calling them a fraud on the open internet, while they are not a member and can not defend themselves, only shows your willingness to attack what can not defend itself. 
 If you feel that strongly about Mr. Dillman why not go visit him and find out for yourself.


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## hedgehogey (Jul 4, 2004)

Well, I have no money for him to take. But if you'd rather me remove the f-word for the safety of the site I can do that.


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## mcjon77 (Jul 4, 2004)

It is best to fight a big guy if he is the initiator/agressor in the fight.  If he is the initiator/agressor, make him come to you. If you stay just outside his reach, and he is the one who wants to fight, he will keep coming at you.  Keep moving, using your speed and endurance.  It would probably be best to stick with jabs and backfists for hand movements and quick roundhouse kicks and side kicks to the knee and shin.  The object of the punches/kicks isn't to knock him out, rather it is to chip away at him, further slowing him down, while taking away his will to pursue the fight any more.

Also, the advice on lateral movement is a good one.  simply moving back probably won't suffice, because even though you are faster than him, your probably not faster than him running away straight backward if he his runing towards you straight forward.  I like the idea of moving in a sort of arc motion.  Imagine a pendulum moving back and forth, only after every arc, the rope gets a little longer.  This will force him to move both forward and laterally.  Also, don't move laterally in only one direction (going only clockwise or counter clockwise)  it is much less taxing on him.  if you switch directions he has to go against the momentum he has generated to go in the oposite direction.  So will you, but since you are lighter and have more endurance, it will be less taxing on you than him. 

One thing to watch out for is the charge.  If he is getting frustrated/tired, big guys will often just charge you straight on in the hopes of overwhelming you. The best technique for this is strong lateral movement.  If you move fast enough and far enough to the side, his momentumn will carry him past you and you will find yourself somewhat behind him.  From here, you could take the opportunity to attack him from behind in the knees, legs and lower back (don't bother hitting his upper back/lats If he is muscled), or you could use this opportunity to get more distance/run away.  I recomend the latter.

As to why I am letting the cat out of the bag on how to beat big guys if I'm one of them, notice that almost none of what I have said will work if the big guy is not the agressor/initiator/attacker.  Since I never have been, nor ever plan on being the agressor/initiator/attacker I don't mind helping people learn how to overcome larger/stronger opponents who are preying uppon them.

Jon


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## kenpo tiger (Jul 5, 2004)

mcjon77 said:
			
		

> It is best to fight a big guy if he is the initiator/agressor in the fight. If he is the initiator/agressor, make him come to you. If you stay just outside his reach, and he is the one who wants to fight, he will keep coming at you. Keep moving, using your speed and endurance. It would probably be best to stick with jabs and backfists for hand movements and quick roundhouse kicks and side kicks to the knee and shin. The object of the punches/kicks isn't to knock him out, rather it is to chip away at him, further slowing him down, while taking away his will to pursue the fight any more.
> 
> Also, the advice on lateral movement is a good one. simply moving back probably won't suffice, because even though you are faster than him, your probably not faster than him running away straight backward if he his runing towards you straight forward. I like the idea of moving in a sort of arc motion. Imagine a pendulum moving back and forth, only after every arc, the rope gets a little longer. This will force him to move both forward and laterally. Also, don't move laterally in only one direction (going only clockwise or counter clockwise) it is much less taxing on him. if you switch directions he has to go against the momentum he has generated to go in the oposite direction. So will you, but since you are lighter and have more endurance, it will be less taxing on you than him.
> 
> ...


Thank you.
I've found that most large men I have trained with in ma are very aware of their size and strength and tend to be good natured, cooperative, and very controlled when working with us 'little ones'.  I am certain that that takes a lot of focus.
Just out of curiousity - if you are fighting someone your size and skill, how WOULD you approach it??  I'd be interested to hear it.:asian:


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## shesulsa (Jul 5, 2004)

Good question - my workout partner is 6'6" and weighs every bit of 320.  He says I'd be a good candidate for a larger opponent because I have a long reach and hit harder than most guys, but his reach EASILY exceeds mine - so I've been told to get in close and low - but....

 A) In a sparring situation, that will never score me points.
 B) All they have to do is get a bear hug on me and I'm toast.

 I did go up against a large guy in real life - a security guard (ahem) just as large as my classmate (above).  I slapped him in the face, scoop-kicked him in the groin and turned and RAN.  I had no martial arts training at the time.  I was lucky - I don't think he expected it, AND he was a slow dude.

 Now, my partner moves like a little guy - he has some body fat, to be sure (so do I), but he has a great deal of power and muscle behind that armor.  The higher body fat percentage means he won't feel pressure points and tendon strikes must be so precise, you'll never get the angle because of his coverage.  He moves laterally and circles on the balls of his feet.

 Suggestions (other than a .45)?


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## MichiganTKD (Jul 5, 2004)

Some years ago, one of our black belts fought a guy named Tiny at his test. Now, when a guy is named Tiny you know he's no lightweight. Anyway, Big guys tend to be slow, and Tiny was no exception. He attacked, and the black belt instinctively did was he had been taught to do against a big guy-he countered with a high roundhouse. Big guys will often have their hands down out of a false of security: They think they cannot be contacted. Well, Tiny was caught dead center with a high roundhouse to his jowl. It split his jowl from ear to ear, with blood all over the place, and Tiny had to be rushed to the hospital. Fortunately he survived.
What we were taught was this: Big guys have that extra layer of protection in their midsection, but their head is the same as yours. So unless you have incredible powerful middle kicks, a high kick will work better. And it is better as stated before, to let them come to you and then respond. Roundhouse and front kicks will not work because they are not strong enough. Side kicks work better because they have more power.
Several years ago I had the same experience, but the result wasn't nearly as bad. I was sparring against a very big guy. He did a front kick, I countered with a back roundhouse kick that almost took his head off.
I don't recommend doing a high kick off the bat. Play with him a little. See how he responds. Then, when you know he has gotten cocky, finish with a high kick.


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## kenpo tiger (Jul 5, 2004)

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> What we were taught was this: Big guys have that extra layer of protection in their midsection, but their head is the same as yours. So unless you have incredible powerful middle kicks, a high kick will work better. And it is better as stated before, to let them come to you and then respond...
> 
> I don't recommend doing a high kick off the bat. Play with him a little. See how he responds. Then, when you know he has gotten cocky, finish with a high kick.


Thank you for the anecdotes.  My only problem is my height, so I don't know how effective a high kick would be on a tall man.  I'd probably end up in his mid-section!  Agreed that it's better to let him be the aggressor.

Can you empty your inbox for messages?  I tried sending you something and it bounced.  Thanks.  KT


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