# What does wing chun look like?



## chisauking (Mar 21, 2010)

Wing chun is such a difficult art to apply in real time, most people seem to form the opinion that wing chun doesn't look like wing chun in action.

Lots of wing chun practitioners post their wing chun sparring clips on the net, and it looks like anything other than wing chun. One can't see any of the 'tools' in use (tan, bong, fook, wu, gan, kwan, bil, etc) and more often than not, it resembles more to kickboxing'.

In fact, many people say wing chun doesn't look like wing chun, and under pressure, all fighting looks like MMA actions.

If you are a wing chun practitioner, and you can't apply your wing chun tools under light or medium sparring, have you ever wondered why?

If you believe wing chun should look like MMA under pressure, then may I ask why are you still practising wing chun? Would it not be easier to just learn MMA techniques, since it's closer to your objective?


----------



## teekin (Mar 21, 2010)

Well it has noodles and often some sort of vegtable. It can have beef or shrimp or chicken as well.
 What? Ohhhhh . . . . Never Mind.

Lori


----------



## mook jong man (Mar 21, 2010)

I believe Wing Chun does look like Wing Chun in action , but it comes down to how you were trained.

People these days are in such a rush to learn a new trick every training session that they don't spend enough time on the basics like stance , Sil Lum Tao and pivoting.

Countless hours have to be spent on this stuff in order to build a good foundation and ingrain it into your mind and body.

I heard that Tsui Seung Tin would spend five hours just practicing pivoting , what modern day students would have the patience and fortitude to train like that these days.

Of course the commercial reality these days is that most schools would be empty if they trained this way still , these days they expect to be learning the wooden dummy inside a week of joining.

Once the basics are perfected then and only then should a student  be allowed to progress to learning chi sau and all the various deflections and kicks.

These deflections must also be taught in a systematic way with the partner attacking in a predetermined sequence so that the student performs many hundreds of repetitions of the various defences.

Then the speed and intensity of the attacks are increased , if the student is coping ok with that and showing a certain degree of speed and correctness of movement .

Finally you can start to add mobility and limited randomness to the equation and then later total random attacks.

I remember watching my seniors spar and it didn't look like kick boxing or mma , I can see the strikes being executed in those styles.
But when I watched my seniors there would be an attack and then the counter attack would come and be over in half a second .

The hand techniques were so fast it was hard to say exactly what they were using , but you could certainly hear the noise on the other guys chest protector and then would come the finishing stamp kick , hook kick or elbow strike and sweep etc.

They could apply what they had learned by reflex because they had been there for years and put in the hard yards and many thousands upon thousands of repetitions .

I remember people asking Sigung Tsui all the time ,
Student: How can I make my punching faster and more powerful.
Sigung: Practice Sil Lum Tao.
Student: How can I make my kicks better.
Sigung: Practice Sil Lum Tao.
Student: How can I improve my reflexes.
Sigung: Practice Sil Lum Tao.

His answer was always the same and not really what they wanted to hear , because they thought it was so basic , they wanted some sort of magic bullet that would fast track their training .

But the answer was simple , you just have to put in a lot of work and time and a lot of that time is spent doing the form.

I truly believe that a person with a good grounding in Sil Lum Tao will beat the crap out of somebody who has completed the whole system in a rush.


----------



## geezer (Mar 21, 2010)

mook jong man said:


> I believe Wing Chun does look like Wing Chun in action , but it comes down to how you were trained.
> ...I truly believe that a person with a good grounding in Sil Lum Tao will beat the crap out of somebody who has completed the whole system in a rush.



Another good post and I agree with the basic sentiment. Long hours training your foundation, reinforcing basic techniques through repetition of simple drill, gradually freeing it up and moving into sparring under the vigilant eyes of a good sifu... and above all never rushing to learn _more_, instead focusing on learning _better_.

On the other hand, I think endlessly repeating a form by itself, without understanding and drilling the _applications_ is a dead end. The forms are not a magic dance that will make you a great martial artist. SNT especially, is like an alphabet. You must know it by heart, but just as knowing the alphabet alone will not make you a writer, SNT alone will not make you a fighter.

Oh and to address the OP, when I spar it looks like WC (actually like the stuff taught in the NVTO). Sometimes it looks good, and sometimes it looks crappy, but that's what it looks like, because that's all I know. Unless I'm holding a stick, then it'll look like Eskrima.


----------



## yak sao (Mar 21, 2010)

mook jong man said:


> I believe Wing Chun does look like Wing Chun in action , but it comes down to how you were trained.
> 
> People these days are in such a rush to learn a new trick every training session that they don't spend enough time on the basics like stance , Sil Lum Tao and pivoting.
> 
> ...


 

Well said.......to add to it if I may, I think many schools, Wing Chun, TKD, karate, whatever, start sparring too soon and as such they haven't given the student enough time to develop their reflexes/techniques and so the student reverts back to what he does (or doesn't) know.


----------



## wushuguy (Mar 22, 2010)

depending on how one has learned and practiced, that is how their WC will look like. having the hand positions drilled in you by repetition, and learning to free flow the techniques in mon sau or gor sau, those are the steps to bringing the WC techs to real application. more one practices mon sau (asking hands) and gor sau (speaking hands), then the more eloquent one will be in conversation. Without foundation, one will look like common bickering or unintelligible speaking.

in conversation, one will still find lop sau, biu sau, tan, pak, cao, bong, jaam, wu, etc. but it may be blended or very momentary as to not be noticed by those who are untrained in WC. or it may be done in an "unorthodox" manner but still recognizable by practitioners. for example, wai kwan sau (outside rolling hands) is normally practice both arms moving simultaneously, one arm becomes tan, the other a low bong, but it might be used as a staggered low punch followed by a quick tan to clear the upper gate which then would flow into the next technique and position ....


----------



## mook jong man (Mar 22, 2010)

geezer said:


> On the other hand, I think endlessly repeating a form by itself, without understanding and drilling the _applications_ is a dead end. The forms are not a magic dance that will make you a great martial artist. SNT especially, is like an alphabet. You must know it by heart, but just as knowing the alphabet alone will not make you a writer, SNT alone will not make you a fighter.


 
You've got a point there , its crucial that you also work on the applications and seek to  understand how they work not just mimic your instructor.

I believe the applications and the form work together hand in glove ,  the form helps the applications and the applications help the form .

Whenever I have had a problem performing a particular application I have had to go back and re- examine the movement in the form.

Most of the time this solved the problem straight away , but there were other times when it didn't.

Those times I just had to play around with the technique and use trial and error until I got it right . 

Usually the cause of the problem was that I had been performing the corresponding  movement in the form slightly incorrect , so my reference point was screwed up to begin with.

But it was all good because it uncovered something that was wrong and enabled me to make slight alterations to the way I perform the particular movement in the form and make it right.

That sort of thing has happened time and time again , they're only minute adjustments and from looking you probably wouldn't be able to tell , but they make all the difference in the application.


----------



## Vajramusti (Mar 22, 2010)

The key is whether the observer knows enough about wing chun to recognize wing chun in action. As an example- the biu shooting motion in the forms usually has the arms straight-to learn how to release the energy when you are working out alone. Against an opponent the arm may look bent in order to adjust-spring like- to the opponent when contact takes place.


----------



## chisauking (Mar 22, 2010)

Well, all the people that's responded so far agree with me that wing chun should look like wing chun in application.....so that's buggered things up! Left me with not much to add, lol.

Come on, let's play the white man, I know many of you guys out their apply wing chun like kickboxing, so don't be shy and let's hear your perspective why you apply wing chun the way you do.


----------



## chisauking (Mar 22, 2010)

Vajramusti said:


> The key is whether the observer knows enough about wing chun to recognize wing chun in action. As an example- the biu shooting motion in the forms usually has the arms straight-to learn how to release the energy when you are working out alone. Against an opponent the arm may look bent in order to adjust-spring like- to the opponent when contact takes place.


 
Joy: I think most wing chunners would know what wing chun tool are when they see it. 

In general, wing chun should look like wing chun, right? If so, how come most clips on the net doesn't portry this?


----------



## chisauking (Mar 22, 2010)

mook jong man said:


> I believe Wing Chun does look like Wing Chun in action , but it comes down to how you were trained.
> 
> People these days are in such a rush to learn a new trick every training session that they don't spend enough time on the basics like stance , Sil Lum Tao and pivoting.
> 
> ...


 
Just to digress off topic a little, I would say I agree with the gist of what you say, mook jong, but I would add the following.

Although I truly believe that wing chun skills take time & hard work to aquire, I aslo believe the curriculum -- a well organised & logical approach to teaching -- plays an extremely important part. With one of my wing chun teachers, I'd to sit in the YJKYM for ages before he would even let me progress to yat chee keun. I would be taught 1 or two techniques only after he thought I'd performed the last techniques to a high standard, and it took me quite a long time to finish the first form. In fact, because it took me so long to complete, having bit & peices fed me over a long period of time, I had problems stringing the whole form together and remembering the sequences. However, with another teacher, he would teach you the whole form in a day, and he would be very casual about it. He's a very relaxed person, giving you no pressure to perform. With this later approach, I could remember everything very easy, and my skills advanced at a very rapid rate. Also, the specific drills which he conceived, brought out my attributes very quick. In all my travels seeking out high level wing chun, I've yet to see another method that brings out one's wing chun skills faster. In comparision, I would say students of over 20-years' experience would have problems with his students of 1 or 2-years' training.

Yes, hard work & time is a factor, but the quality of teaching is much more important in my opinion.

People would be surprised that I teach all my students SLT in less than 4-weeks, with 2 lessons per week. And if it were private lessons, I would teach them in 2- to 3 lessons.

All too often, people are spending far too long learning a style that purports to be quick to learn. In my experience, taking so long to learn may not be the best approach and doesn't guarantee quality.


----------



## Vajramusti (Mar 22, 2010)

chisauking said:


> Joy: I think most wing chunners would know what wing chun tool are when they see it.
> 
> In general, wing chun should look like wing chun, right? If so, how come most clips on the net doesn't portry this?


------------------------------------------------------------
Well folks are so stuck om the media the common assumption is that net representations provide the whole truth.


----------



## chisauking (Mar 22, 2010)

Vajramusti said:


> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Well folks are so stuck om the media the common assumption is that net representations provide the whole truth.


 
I whole heartedly agree with you that the net don't represent the whole truth, but again, my observation doesn't stem from the net alone.

What ever the source, one can't deny that most of the wing chun 'sparring' clips out there don't resemble wing chun, and also many seasoned wing chunners advocate the MMA approach.

My intention for posting this topic is not to enrage people, although that seems to be a natrual gift of mine, but to give the people who advocates this approach to have a chance of voicing their perspective. I also hope to provoke some people into thinking a little about the way in which they approach wing chun, and get them to examine the correlation between wing chun training & applying.


----------



## chinaboxer (Mar 22, 2010)

interesting question, i like it. and it's interesting because this has been on my mind recently and i have been looking for a way to explain it in a video, let me think a bit on the subject and i'll make a video on the subject.


----------



## chisauking (Mar 22, 2010)

Great, Chinaboxer.......

But can we not have it like kickboxing?


----------



## wushuguy (Mar 23, 2010)

hey, I just remembered, once when I was in Guangzhou, I saw some taiji practitioners in the park, and my wife knowing I like kung fu, went to introduce me to them. so I got a "lesson" in chen taiji. I pretended to not know anything especially since at that time I had ceased training wing chun or other arts for about 2 years. While doing some tui shou with him, my wife had mentioned to one student that actually I had done WC for a number of years. I could remember the student then went to his sifu and said "Shifu, ta zhidao yong chun quan." (Teacher he knows Wing Chun" then the sifu said, "Wo zhidao le." (I already know.)
so even to that sifu, even though I pretended to not know anything, naturally some motions could still be recognized and felt as wing chun, so if one is doing wing chun right, people will be able to recognize and feel it, even if one tries to hide it.

So when we see someone doing wing chun and it doesn't look like wing chun,  maybe it's because the guy lost his foundation or it really wasn't ingrained in him enough?


----------



## Vajramusti (Mar 23, 2010)

wushuguy said:


> hey, I just remembered, once when I was in Guangzhou, I saw some taiji practitioners in the park, and my wife knowing I like kung fu, went to introduce me to them. so I got a "lesson" in chen taiji. I pretended to not know anything especially since at that time I had ceased training wing chun or other arts for about 2 years. While doing some tui shou with him, my wife had mentioned to one student that actually I had done WC for a number of years. I could remember the student then went to his sifu and said "Shifu, ta zhidao yong chun quan." (Teacher he knows Wing Chun" then the sifu said, "Wo zhidao le." (I already know.)
> so even to that sifu, even though I pretended to not know anything, naturally some motions could still be recognized and felt as wing chun, so if one is doing wing chun right, people will be able to recognize and feel it, even if one tries to hide it.
> 
> So when we see someone doing wing chun and it doesn't look like wing chun,  maybe it's because the guy lost his foundation or it really wasn't ingrained in him enough?


_____________________________________________Thanks for that good story. Since I have done wing chun for a long time- I can also pretty well tell what wing chun lineage a person came from.


----------



## CRCAVirginia (Mar 23, 2010)

I teach WC as an attachment art. Meaning we need to be in bridge contact for WC tools to be used.  Until than it will resemble MMA.  I use slight pock sau's to keep the Jab, Cross out and cover like a boxer for the hooks and high kicks. Only when I bridge and make contact and attach to the opponent does WC come in.  You need to stay alive on the outside until you can bridge.  Through sparring you will find that attempting to stop hooks with Tan Da or Woo Da or what ever is a guessing game that I don't play.  I cover and sometimes use the cover as an elbow attack.  

Even beginners should spar.  What WC techniques we trained at the beginning of class will be the focus in sparring at the end of class.  

I train BJJ and we do it the same way. No need to re-invent the wheel, go with what works to build competent fighters.


----------



## Poor Uke (Mar 23, 2010)

There was a Bullshido Gong Sau recently between two members. One guy was a VT I thnk (although he wasnt representing the VT communittee or even claiming to be doing VT in the Gong Sau)

It was pretty apparent to me that he had studied VT watching the vid.


----------



## bully (Mar 23, 2010)

What is a Bullshido Gong sau if you don't mind me asking?

Some kind of challenge fight??


----------



## chisauking (Mar 23, 2010)

CRCAVirginia said:


> I teach WC as an attachment art. Meaning we need to be in bridge contact for WC tools to be used. Until than it will resemble MMA. I use slight pock sau's to keep the Jab, Cross out and cover like a boxer for the hooks and high kicks. Only when I bridge and make contact and attach to the opponent does WC come in. You need to stay alive on the outside until you can bridge. Through sparring you will find that attempting to stop hooks with Tan Da or Woo Da or what ever is a guessing game that I don't play. I cover and sometimes use the cover as an elbow attack.
> 
> Even beginners should spar. What WC techniques we trained at the beginning of class will be the focus in sparring at the end of class.
> 
> I train BJJ and we do it the same way. No need to re-invent the wheel, go with what works to build competent fighters.


 
Once contact is made, wing chun 'tools' still should be visable, right?

I don't think anyone will disagree with you that people should spar, but the BIG question is, what constitutes as sparring. Quite a few people see sparring as the western boxing type of exchange, and some even veiw sparring as fighting (I kid you not, this is the honest truth)


----------



## chisauking (Mar 23, 2010)

Wushguy sez: naturally some motions could still be recognized and felt as wing chun, so if one is doing wing chun right, people will be able to recognize and feel it, even if one tries to hide it.

csk: Wing chun 'tools' can be quite pronouced at low intensiity & speed, in contact, but it's application in real time that's difficult. 

If other martial artist saw someone practising the SLT, they would recognise it as wing chun, but that doesn't mean the practitioner could appy it, or apply it in a way that could be recognisable as wing chun when in application.


----------



## qwksilver61 (Mar 24, 2010)

Probably really messy..and not fairy tail book perfect when in a real fight...
at least you can try to get close...and stay centered!


----------



## dosk3n (Mar 25, 2010)

Well I have added the 2nd video to my youtube channel and where the 1st one looked a lot like WC the 2nd one didnt look like it so much. It is me that is sparring in the video and we are at full speed but when it comes to this I keep going to the basics and just pak and punch. There are a few tan saus in there and bongsau but the tan isnt rotating to a full "begging" position and the bong isnt invisible and moving to another routine. I do use huen and stick when sparring but there is still somthing missing.

I have only been doing WC for 11 months and this is only my 4th or 5th attempt at sparring so by no means am I experienced so I just feel I do not have the positions ingrained in muscle memory yet.

But like said previously and I will agree, I know the answer to this. The magic bullet of the 3 P's: Practice, Practice and Practice.

I dont mind showing you the video as I actually suggest everyone should record themselfs as it helps point out alot of mistakes that you may have never noticed and in this one there is a lot.

http://www.youtube.com/afswingchun (Dean and Paul)

I have posted the other video on the forums before which I think is more WC looking but they have been doing it for a lot longer.

Dean.


----------



## Poor Uke (Mar 25, 2010)

bully said:


> What is a Bullshido Gong sau if you don't mind me asking?
> 
> Some kind of challenge fight??


 
Bullshido is an internet forum that attempts (rightly or wrongly) to shift through the massive amount of BS peddled as martial arts.

Their main aim is fraud investiagtions in martial arts, but members often meet up either to train or spar with each other. Sometimes a discussion on line gets heated and two members will challenge each other (Gong Sau). Rules are drawn up and agreed on and the fight is arranged with the safety of both challengers ensured.

The members in this case were Sirc and Dr Tzun Tzu:





 
See if you can spot the one who has trained _ing _un?


----------



## zepedawingchun (Mar 25, 2010)

dosk3n said:


> http://www.youtube.com/afswingchun (Dean and Paul)
> 
> I have posted the other video on the forums before which I think is more WC looking but they have been doing it for a lot longer.
> 
> Dean.


 
In my experience, when you're sparring, if you're using Wing Chun hand positions and concepts, and if you're very experienced, it looks like Wing Chun, most of the time. But in a real fighting situation, it doesn't look like Wing Chun at all (again, if you are a very experienced Wing Chun practitioner). The reasons, IMO, is because when sparring, you are not totally into stopping and destroying your opponent, your intent is not to maim or severely damage you opponent. You're trying to conserve strength and energy for a greater length of time, so your attacks and defenses are more structured with your responses, you have more time to think and control your movements. So you tend to try to use certain hand position, you make a tan da work or use a bong sao to redirect a punch. And also you expect that the sparring situation is not something you will receive any major injury from or that it becomes a physically life altering event. 

However, when in a fight, or maybe a life or death altercaton, you're going for broke with your defense and attack, intent on stopping your attacker within a matter of seconds. Adrenaline is running wild, your heart rate is up, you're a bit scared. You're not thinking so much because it's for real, everything is happening so fast, and you don't have time to think. You are just worried of what you're attackers next move will be. And so since your mind is out of the equation, your body does what it's been training. The situations are two totally different mind sets, in the energy you expend and intent. Your responses may not look like Wing Chun, even though your responses are. They happen quickly and without thought to what hand positions you're using, at least that is what I have found in my experience. 

So what does Wing Chun look like? In my opinion, it looks exactly how you use it. And that depends on the sitution.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Mar 25, 2010)

chisauking said:


> Wing chun is such a difficult art to apply in real time, most people seem to form the opinion that wing chun doesn't look like wing chun in action.



It looks like this:







Oh wait, that's Wang Chung.  That's very different.  Nevermind.


----------



## geezer (Mar 25, 2010)

What does Wing Chun look like? Pretty good, considering her age!


Sorry. I just cant pass up a really stupid one-liner. But seriously folks... In a fighting situation Wing Chun won't look as defined, perfect and traditional as in the kwoon. The movements will be much more abbreviated and the "slop factor" will be off the scale. That's the nature of a fight. What will come through (or _should_ come through) at the very least is the stance, the hand positioning, aggressive forward pressure, centerline attacks, and chain-punching. A person can be holding his hands _in fists_ all the time and still execute abbreviated deflections, wedging, and control the centerline, without ever making a classical tan sau, fook sau, gaun-sau and so forth. They may slip and stumble, let their stance get too wide, and their movements may get too big and too tense, but they _shouldn't_ be throwing haymakers or using an MMA/boxing approach. IMHO, it will probably look rough, but_ it should still be rough WC._


----------



## hunt1 (Mar 25, 2010)

There is a difference between dead and alive wing chun. Most folks seem to look at dead wing chun and think thats what they should be seeing in a fight.

 For example the man sau prefight position. That is a pose. it is dead. There is a saying that bong sau never stays. Kind of a sad saying. Nothing ever stays in a fight. Everthing changes all the time. To see the wing chun look to a constantly changing center line facing. Constant change of angles. Two hands doing two different things at the same time all the time once the bridge is made. look at the footwork. Do you see circle steps triangle steps shifting steps. Is the body rising and lowering. The hand techniques themselves are the least important thing. Look for covering while moving. 
Do you see pushing and pulling?

 Seer these things and you see the wing chun. looking for a tan lan etc. You shouldn't see much of them because the hands should be changing not posing.


----------



## mook jong man (Mar 25, 2010)

hunt1 said:


> There is a difference between dead and alive wing chun. Most folks seem to look at dead wing chun and think thats what they should be seeing in a fight.
> 
> *For example the man sau prefight position. That is a pose. it is dead.* .


 
Can you explain what you mean here , are you saying that you shouldn't have a guard up.
It might be a dead pose but it does provide a very serious barrier to somebody trying to punch your face in assuming you've got it at the right height.

One of the concepts behind the centre line guard is that it can force the attacker to try and punch around your guard thus making him take a longer route while you control the centre , which also gives you more time to react.

 Your hands might not be moving around while your in your guard but they're not dead you should still be trying to project forward force (springy force) through your arms even when your not in contact yet , at least that was the way we were taught.


----------



## bully (Mar 26, 2010)

I agree with MJM here, can you explain more Hunt??

Whilst I assume Man sau is Wu sau and some kind of other hand out, maybe tan, doesnt matter really.

You would be a fool to get involved in anything without your hands up.

Thats the way I was taught too, doesnt matter what shape my hands are in, just as long as they are in front of me protecting me.

On another point of how Wing Chun should look....

Whilst training with Kevin Chan we were doing scenario drills, ie he attacks me with whatever and I react. My arms were by my side (this maybe what you mean Hunt??).

Kevin explained that it doesnt matter what I stop the kick/punch with, just that I stop it and can work off it.
A few times, well quite a few times actually I threw out a, well lets just say it wasnt Wing Chun. Maybe it was a Bull sau:ultracool

He said carry on, dont stop, just keep working off the "block" with Wing chun. 

In some scenarios you wont have time to perform the perfect Tan/swivel/punch reaction that we would all love to do every time and knock the guy clean out, then buff our nails and take applause from the watching crowd of girls who would then buy you drinks all night and hang off your every word ;-)

My old Sifu also mentioned to us that a natural defensive block with your arms out in front of you actually looks very similar to a bong/wu combo, ie it wouldnt take much to turn it into that. I dont know if you guys can visualise what I mean without a piccy. I am mindful of this if anything turns dodgy.

Anyway, enough rambling from me. I have decided to trademark Bull sau too, it means "rubbish hand". I am pretty good at them. You could add it into your next conversation with your WC mate. "yeah I was doing chi sau and sifu punch me in the chest, my own fault as I dropped into a Bull sau and he went straight through"

Cheers

Bully


----------



## geezer (Mar 26, 2010)

bully said:


> ... I have decided to trademark Bull sau too, it means "*rubbish hand"...*


 
Hey, forget the trademark. I use that technique too!


----------



## mook jong man (Mar 26, 2010)

bully said:


> Whilst training with Kevin Chan we were doing scenario drills, ie he attacks me with whatever and I react. My arms were by my side (this maybe what you mean Hunt??).


 
If he meant it that way then I would have to agree with him there , I certainly advocate doing that type of training that you did with Sifu Chan .

I do it with my students too , because you don't walk around all day with your guard up do you. 

But if you have any inkling that something is going to kick off then you want to get your hands up ready to intercept anything that comes in.

One drill that we do is the Wing Chun guy has his hands down by his side and his partner starts off directly at the side of him and throws any type of hand strike he wants to.

The partner keeps walking around the defender in a semi circle firing of random punches as he goes until he gets to the other side then he goes back the other way.

The defender must stay facing the front until he intercepts the strikes and then he can face the partner and counter attack , then he goes back to facing the front and the drill continues.

The aim of the exercise is to get the student to respond by reflex from a natural position to surprise attacks coming in at weird angles not just nice front on ones like we are used to.
Like you said its not always perfect , and a lot of improvisation happens .





bully said:


> Kevin explained that it doesnt matter what I stop the kick/punch with, just that I stop it and can work off it.
> He said carry on, dont stop, just keep working off the "block" with Wing chun.


 
Can't fault that logic.



bully said:


> My old Sifu also mentioned to us that a natural defensive block with your arms out in front of you actually looks very similar to a bong/wu combo, ie it wouldnt take much to turn it into that. I dont know if you guys can visualise what I mean without a piccy. I am mindful of this if anything turns dodgy.


 
I think your talking about the natural flinch response here , and it does look very similar to a Bong / Wu combo or what we call Seung Bong.


----------



## chisauking (Mar 29, 2010)

In any physical endeavor you can think of, the practice will resemble the doing. From the swing of a golf club, the poke of a snooker cue, the motion of the Thai elbows, the loci of the western boxing jabs, etc., etc., one can see the movement & action resembles the practice.

Its ONLY in wing chun when people say the practice doesnt resemble the doing. If you believe this, then it can only be down to 2 possible reasons.

Wing chun is a very difficult style to apply.
Wing chun doesnt work  at least not in the way we train it.
If you believe in the former reason, then one must question our training and try to bring out the functional aspects of our style.
If you believe in the later, then its best to stop wing chun altogether, or train in a manner in which you believe wing chun should look like in action, in order to make it functional. For example, if you think wing chun looks like kick boxing in application, then it would be best to train kick boxing right from the onset. Or, if you think judo would look like swimming in application, then it would be better to practice swimming on the onset.

Personally, I believe wing chun is extremely difficult to apply in real time. Its equivalent to the triple somersault with a half twist in gymnastics. Millions of people practice gymnastics, but only a handful of gymnast can perform the most difficult of actions. Further more, when people change the objective of a style, putting it in an environment and restriction which it was never meant to be used, then the dynamics of the method must also change. Put the best badminton player in a tennis game, and the badminton player HAS to change his dynamics in order to compete successfully in his new objective or new game. His methods would also have to change, because the tools required is different to those of badminton. This concept is no different in wing chun. Change the objective, rules, environment, and the dynamics & tools MUST also change.

Next time you record yourself applying wing chun, or put a clip out on utube, have a look to see if it resembles what you practice. It reveals much about one's training & wing chun level.


----------



## Vajramusti (Mar 29, 2010)

Depends on who is doing it and who is looking!


----------



## l_uk3y (Mar 31, 2010)

Hmm. It looks very different to me depending on the student.

Some clips you see of sparring on the net looks exactly like what you would expect. Solid base, controlling the centre, creating an opening and then attacking it.

Others look like people who have padded up and only know how to roll punch and charge forwards. In what appears to be cover your face and keep punching until someone runs out of breath.

I believe there are as many different ways Wing Chun can look as there are students, however you can usually pick the true level of training the student has (not being measured in years) by the way they spar/fight.


----------



## chisauking (Mar 31, 2010)

l_uk3y said:


> Hmm. It looks very different to me depending on the student.
> 
> Some clips you see of sparring on the net looks exactly like what you would expect. Solid base, controlling the centre, creating an opening and then attacking it.
> 
> ...


 

Very good points, lucky!


----------



## KamonGuy2 (Apr 6, 2010)

I do a lot of scenario training, trying to get students aware that they will not always be in an ideal position to form a good defense. Most recently we sat in chairs and were attacked randomly by other students

Your wing chun will often be messy and have bad structure to start with (known as flinch reaction). It is what you do afterwards!!

Ive been punched in the back before, kicked randomly from the side, and grabbed unexpectedly. You cant train your body to form perfect moves everytime or you will end up turning into a nutter and expecting attack all the time!! 

At Red level gradings, students are given a basic attack (straight punch or hook) and they have to put a reaction up before 'moulding' into the opponent. Its a great drill and gets you appreciating how to recover in fights


----------



## geezer (Apr 6, 2010)

As for what Wing Chun _looks like... _I just had a sort of random thought in response to some youtube clips I was watching. Some martial arts (including some Wing Chun) are performed very crisply, with sharp, clearly defined movements, punctuated by momentary pauses (or "poses") almost like a choreographed performance in a martial arts movie. It looks impressive, but it's not at all how I want my 'chun to look. My goal is to become more fluid and adaptable, with my movements forming in response to my opponent's techniques, molding around his limbs and snapping forward to strike whatever targets are presented... never following a choreographed pattern. Unfortunately, some beginning students are much more impressed by the sharp, tense, and exaggerated "movie" type techniques. Anybody else have a similar experience?


----------



## chisauking (Apr 6, 2010)

Rehearsed clips will always look good, but it's what one can do spontaneously & in a 'live' environment that's a real indication of skills.

If one has real skills, the hands will do the talking. We don't need to try and 'impress' people with cheap tricks & mannequine partners.


----------



## geezer (Apr 7, 2010)

chisauking said:


> If one has real skills, *the hands will do the talking.* We don't need to try and 'impress' people with cheap tricks & mannequine partners.


 
One of my training partners is Italian American from Brooklyn. He definitely _talks with his hands!_


----------



## KamonGuy2 (Apr 7, 2010)

geezer said:


> One of my training partners is Italian American from Brooklyn. He definitely _talks with his hands!_


 
Is he a mute?


----------



## yak sao (Apr 7, 2010)

geezer said:


> As for what Wing Chun _looks like... _I just had a sort of random thought in response to some youtube clips I was watching. Some martial arts (including some Wing Chun) are performed very crisply, with sharp, clearly defined movements, punctuated by momentary pauses (or "poses") almost like a choreographed performance in a martial arts movie. It looks impressive, but it's not at all how I want my 'chun to look. *My goal is to become more fluid and adaptable, with my movements forming in response to my opponent's techniques, molding around his limbs and snapping forward to strike whatever targets are presented*... never following a choreographed pattern. Unfortunately, some beginning students are much more impressed by the sharp, tense, and exaggerated "movie" type techniques. Anybody else have a similar experience?


 

That's what I try to get through to the guys i train with. A couple of them are so dogmatic, that WT should "look" a certain way.
Our WT will never "look perect" beacause we are not being attacked with perfect techniques from our opponents.


----------



## chisauking (Apr 7, 2010)

yak sao said:


> That's what I try to get through to the guys i train with. A couple of them are so dogmatic, that WT should "look" a certain way.
> Our WT will never "look perect" beacause we are not being attacked with perfect techniques from our opponents.


 
csk: Does a boxer need to be attacked with perfect techniques to show his boxing? Does a MT guy need to be attacked with perfect kicks to show his thai counter kicks?

What has your opponent's attacks -- whether perfect or not -- has to do with anything regarding whether you can apply wing chun 'tools' or not?

OK, say we agree that wing chun shouldn't look a 'certain way', does that mean we can practice wing chun any way we want? After all, it doesn't matter what it looks like in application, right?


----------



## yak sao (Apr 7, 2010)

I think too many people have seen too many movies.
Fighting is ugly....you aren't going to look like you are practicing a form with live opponents in front of you.

That said, I think the genius simplicity of WC, gives us a much better chance of "sticking to our guns" when the crap hits the fan than would, say a sport karate guy.


----------



## geezer (Apr 7, 2010)

chisauking said:


> What has your opponent's attacks -- whether perfect or not -- has to do with anything regarding whether you can apply wing chun 'tools' or not?


 
What has your opponent's attack got to do with your WC response? ..._everything_, of course. Two attacks might look identical, but depending on the energy received, you might respond with bong-sau, tan-sau, or with a simple deflecting counterpunch. CSK, I take your point to be that whatever WC "tool" is required, it will still look like that tool and not like garbage. I'm with you all the way.



chisauking said:


> OK, say we agree that wing chun shouldn't look a 'certain way', does that mean we can practice wing chun any way we want? After all, it doesn't matter what it looks like in application, right?


 
I'd say how well it works is the truest test of a technique. Looks can be deceiving. As I said before, I've seen people "pose" beatitiful, textbook-perfect technique who had no real sensitivity or flow at all. As you put it, CSK, the _hands will do the talking._ To use this analogy, forms and practice is _recitation_, Chi Sau is a_ discussion_, sparring is a _heated debate_, and fighting is a _violent argument_. People are seldom as eloquent when arguing heatedly as when reciting classics.


----------



## chisauking (Apr 7, 2010)

yak sao said:


> I think too many people have seen too many movies.
> Fighting is ugly....you aren't going to look like you are practicing a form with live opponents in front of you.
> 
> That said, I think the genius simplicity of WC, gives us a much better chance of "sticking to our guns" when the crap hits the fan than would, say a sport karate guy.


 
csk: Where I see genuine wing chun applied isn't in the movies, although Yip Man (the movie) does portry many actual wing chun tools.

Fighting may be ugly, but it doesn't mean we can't see the 'tools' used. Just because we don't pull off the 'perfect' hook, doesn't mean we can't see the hook; just because we can't pull off the 'perfect' fook, doesn't mean we can't recognise the fook.


----------



## yak sao (Apr 7, 2010)

I'm not so sure we're arguing CSK, because I'm pretty much saying the same thing you are. WC is going to look like WC, just that it isn't going to be something out of an issue of Inside Kung Fu necesarily.


----------



## geezer (Apr 8, 2010)

yak sao said:


> I'm not so sure we're arguing CSK, because I'm pretty much saying the same thing you are. WC is going to look like WC, just that *it isn't going to be something out of an issue of Inside Kung Fu* necesarily.


 
_Than God for that!_

BTW, my earlier response on 4/6 was really more of an observation about how what we do should have a relaxed, fluid look that is free of the tense, posed quality found in "chop-socky" movies and in a lot of forms done for exhibition. It's hard to describe, but good WC has a distinctly understated appearance in execution that may seem unimpressive to those accustomed to the oversold movements of movies and staged demos.


----------



## mook jong man (Apr 8, 2010)

One of my instructors used to call that " Having a Kodak moment " when people have little dramatic pauses in their techniques.
Some people aren't even aware that they are doing it , your technique should be smooth , relaxed and fluid from start to finish.


----------

