# Effectiveness of Wing Chun



## astrobiologist

Hello.  I am new to Wing Chun.  I have not yet found a school or an instructor.  I have simply been reading and watching videos about WC.  It seems like Wing Chun could be a very effective style.  I had posted something to this effect on a forum at **************.  A member responded with this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by *CrackFox*
_Have you tried many martial arts that emphasise clinch range fighting against a fully resisting opponent? There's very little evidence to support your assertion, so I'm wondering what frame of reference you're using to assess Wing Chung's effectiveness._

The assertion he spoke of is that Wing Chun seems like an effective style.  I responded with this:

There aren't many martial arts that emphasize in-fighting almost solely. However, taking an analytical look at Okinawan, Japanese, and Korean martial arts one will see elements similar to wing chun emphasized in the techniques and forms. Students studying the Seisan Kata of Isshinryu such as myself may see that they are preactising the Wing Chun bong sau and tan sau techniques during the second set of techniques they perform. These together are also similar to the inside-to-outside block/strike of Shotokan and Tang Soo Do. They are effective for a quick block/parry and a strike.

From my reading it sounds like there could be a lot of "evidence" for the effectiveness of Wing Chun, but for the most part it is hear-say. I wonder if your "evidence" for backing up why you think Wing Chun is not effective is also hear-say. It can be pretty difficult to determine what stories you hear in the martial arts are true and which aren't. My reasoning for seeing Wing Chun as effective is that I see simple, strong techniques which are not committed. I see a style where the emphasis is for getting away from the flashy", baton-twirling we see in a lot of martial arts. Wing Chun has a focus on using a minimal energy to deflect, trap, or strike. I'm not saying that Wing Chun is the ultimate martial art. Indeed, I don't really even practise this art myself. All I'm saying is that I see a system for close range fighting which appears to have effective techniques. 

I wonder what system you think must be better. Maybe Krav Maga, Modern Army Combatives, Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu? I think if you actually take a look at these arts and many others you'll see that many of the principles for in-fighting are similar (not the grappling, the close range fighting when arms have not yet been trapped or just at the moment of trapping/clinching). From my own observations, it seems like Wing Chun emphasizes the best of all of these techniques. From deflections and parries, to controlling wrists and elbows, to getting under or over a guard, to quick impulse-based short range strikes, to low-body attacks with the legs and blocking with the legs. There aren't any of the over-the-head haymakers, or jump spinning kicks, or similar moves which can be great for exercise but are not very useful in close-range self defense.


I was wandering what some long time practitioners of Wing Chun thought.  Can you school me here? Is there anything else I should add in my response to this guy?  Are my points valid?

Like I said I'm new to learning about Wing Chun, but I think it would be a great addition to my martial art.


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## mook jong man

You sound like you are a very intelligent and insightful martial artist to have noticed the things that you talk about in regards to the Wing Chun system . But if this moron can't see the logic and simplicity that is Wing Chun then I wouldn't even bother trying to educate him .

 As to the effectiveness , as with any art it depends on the way you train . If you never go outside of your comfort zone and venture into the realms of hard sparring , both hard chi sau sparring and sparring out of contact range then it is negligible whether you will be able to apply it on the street .

 Having a bit of the mongrel in you also goes a long way as well . I can only say that my seniors  have used it with great success on the street against single and multiple attackers .

 Even some students that had only trained for a couple of months and pretty much only knew Pak Sau and punch , four corner deflection and low heel kick used to come up to me and say " Guess what instructor , I had to use the Wing Chun on the weekend at a party it worked great .

 Or there was another one that had only been training for a matter of weeks and got attacked by a haymaker from an opposing team member at a soccer game and calmy stepped in with a Dai Sau followed by three centerline punches and knocked the guy to the ground .

If you are still thinking of replying to that guy I will leave you with these words of wisdom from an old boss of mine.

" You can't put brains in statues mate " !


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## yak sao

If you are still thinking of replying to that guy I will leave you with these words of wisdom from an old boss of mine.

" You can't put brains in statues mate " ![/quote]

I'm kind of partial to " don't argue with an idiot, the people looking on may not be able to tell the difference"


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## yak sao

If you are still thinking of replying to that guy I will leave you with these words of wisdom from an old boss of mine.

" You can't put brains in statues mate " ![/quote]


I'm kind of partial to :
                              "don't argue with an idiot, onlookers may not be
                               able to see the difference"


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## KamonGuy2

I have trained in multiple styles, including BJJ, Judo, Muay Thai, boxing and various other arts. I can say, in my experience, that wing chun is the best for clinching. Its use of sensitivity to approach clinchwork is very useful. The use of direct lines and very short range attacks is also of extreme benefit

There is great dispute about the effectiveness of wing chun on the ground which I believe is its weakest area, but NO art is complete

If you find a school where the instructor is good on the ground (Kamon, Alan Orr, James Sinclair, Grados, Bosteppi) then you will be okay

Don't take too much to heart on forums. No one knows everything (except me...) and so there are no certainties


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## Yoshiyahu

The best way to find out how effective an Art is would be to fight someone from that art.

I can tell you all about why I think MT,Karate,Drunkenfist,Tai Chi is a very effective Martial Art. But until I show you with combat it means nothing...Too much talk about the science and art. Not enough showing. Do boxers talk about how effective boxing is?

No they show you by getting in the ring. 

Even Karate guys and Muay Thai guys prove their art by Tournment or Competiton fighting.

I am not saying you have to enroll in some sport to prove your art. But the way Wing Chun has been proven by the Chinese is to fight with it. Then others will believe you.

Study the history of Yip Man and how he came to learn WC and teach it?

*Wing Chun has to be proven by Fighting*​ 


> While enrolled at St. Stephen's, a classmate, hearing of Yip's training in kung fu, dared him to challenge an old kung fu practitioner living on a boat anchored in Hong Kong Bay. Yip accepted the dare and duly sought out and challenged the old man. The old man accepted his challenge and, despite Yip's growing reputation as an unmatched fighter, beat him handily. Only after his defeat did Yip discover that the old man was actually master Leung Bik, a direct descendant of the original Wing Chun lineage reaching back to Wing Chun herself. After the melee, Leung took Yip as his only student in the art and advanced his Wing Chun even further, both expanding his theoretical grounding in the art and refining his technique.


 


> Leung Sheung was an assistant teacher to Go Dai Chung. He challenged Yip Man and lost. Leung Sheung then became Yip Man?s first student.






> Yip Man?s students are divided into three generations. The first generation was taught how to use Wing Chun for fighting. This way Yip Man would be able to establish a name for Wing Chun.


 



> Ho Kam Ming full contact Wing Chun teams have fought in martial art tournaments throughout Southeast Asia and has earned both recognition and respect.


 


> Sum Nung was hesitant at first to take Yuen Kay San as his teacher. He had been learning from Cheung for a few years and saw Yuen, older and quite slender, as a stark contrast to his young and powerful teacher. This feeling led him to question Yuen's skills. Yuen, seeing in Sum Nung a great desire and potential, was willing to indulge the youth. Promising that the youth could use all that he knew, and vowing only to defend in return, Yuen invited Sum Nung to touch hands with him. Quickly realizing that Yuen's skills were of the highest level, Sum Nung immediately became his student.


 


> By the 1943, Sum Nung had gained a great reputation for his wing chun fighting skills in Foshan and had begun to teach students of his own.






> Although Sum Nung, like Yuen Kay-San, did not boast of his abilities nor seek out confrontation, he did on occasion have friendly tests of skill with practitioners of other martial art styles. Although he seldom spoke of the encounters out of respect for his opponents' reputations, it is said that in them, he never met with failure and his reputation in Guangzhou grew steadily.


 
http://www.wingchunkuen.com/sumnung/articles/article_gomez01.html


> From my own sparring and lessons with Wong sifu to watching him send big Kirk Gloss (an 8 times wrestling champion at 6'4" and 220 lbs) flying across the room, I thought it was sifu's diet that caused it. I knew Kirk felt the same way. One day we were at Kirk's house. Kirk and I were shocked to witness sifu breaking a board with an inch power. Kirk could not wait to tell his friend Jesus who was the East coast kickboxing champion about it. Kirk brought Jesus and insisted that he sparred with sifu. Jesus closed in and in a flash he fell back like a log of wood, knocked out. Kirk who was an ambulance driver, performed CPR on Jesus. After waking up Jesus said all he remembered was a powerful punch landing on his face. Sifu said he used the _pak sao_ technique. I could not see it because it was so fast. I wished I could have seen it again.


 

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/sumnung/articles/article_kenlee01.html


> I wanted to discover his Wing Chun skills in other areas, so I told him I had studied from half a dozen Wing Chun schools through out the U.S. and I knew all the forms and I also told him I had taught over 100 students. He told me that practicing the forms alone would not make me understand the principles and applications of it. He also tested my sensitivity with his hands attached to mine, I was not able to sense or block his punches. Even though he had told me in advance where he would try to hit me. He did the same thing to every one I knew, I failed. It puzzled me but I couldn't do the same thing he did to me. Out of frustration and curiosity, I suggested we go under a freeway for an all out sparring. Since I was at my prime physical state, ten years older, heavier and bigger than him, I thought I had every bit of an advantage of winning the sparring contest. But in no time I became his punching bag. It went beyond my power of comprehension that he could generate such power, and threw me off in every direction. All I could see was the sky turning upside down. There was a blackout and from there on I couldn't remember a thing.


 
The more you fight and practice the Kung of WC the more people will want to learn WC!!!





Kamon Guy said:


> I have trained in multiple styles, including BJJ, Judo, Muay Thai, boxing and various other arts. I can say, in my experience, that wing chun is the best for clinching. Its use of sensitivity to approach clinchwork is very useful. The use of direct lines and very short range attacks is also of extreme benefit
> 
> There is great dispute about the effectiveness of wing chun on the ground which I believe is its weakest area, but NO art is complete
> 
> If you find a school where the instructor is good on the ground (Kamon, Alan Orr, James Sinclair, Grados, Bosteppi) then you will be okay
> 
> Don't take too much to heart on forums. No one knows everything (except me...) and so there are no certainties


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## qwksilver61

I did'nt know that Jesus could Kick box?


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## tellner

This Crack Fox character is far from being a moron. He's asked the only two important questions:

What do you know?
How do you know it?

MJM and YS's responses actually detract from the sum total of human knowledge. They're simply emotional reactions which come down to "If he asked you that he's an idiot" in about that many words. By saying that they put you on the path of blind obedience and the surrender of your precious faculties of reason and independent thought.

KG and Yoshiyahu's answers are better. They amount to "I have personal experience" and "Look at what these people have done". I happen to disagree with some of their examples and conclusions, but their approach is that of a thinking adult, not a credulous child or a cultist. All respect to them.

Myself? I had some Wing Chun from good teachers and found something I liked better taught by better teachers. I found that what I ended up in worked better for me and allowed me to at least hold my own and generally do quite well against some of my old Wing Chun friends who had at least as much time in grade as I.

You have to find out for yourself.


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## Si-Je

This seems to be an age old debate.
Here are some facts:

Wing Chun is a fighting style designed specifically for combat, used in fighting life and death situational combat from the inception of it's birth.
It was designed for the Chinese Revolutionary fighters, designed to make and train effective fighters in a shorter amount of time.  (instead of the 20 years or so it took for other kung fu)

Wing Chun is 100% self-defensive style with techniques that focus on the most direct and effective striking methods to achieve the immediate goal of incompasitating the opponent.

There is ground fighting technique in WC/WT, there is "grappling" defense in WC/WT. The chinese were well versed in these types of combat in the inception on WC/WT.  

The best thing you can do you've already done much of.  
Ask questions.
Research.
And now, when you find a school near you try it out.  Get a feel for the instructor, the students, the teaching style, and the art.  See if YOU feel and think it's effective.

As for the guy on the forum, those fellas that focus only on working with "non-compliant" opponents, there isn't really anything you can say that will change his mind.  You'll train differently than they will.  You'll focus more on technique, building sensitivity, flowing, speed, and internal power.  Then you'll get to spar with non-compliant opponents.  
Just a different way of training.


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## Yoshiyahu

Thank you for your response. I think it was a compliment I am still processing it mentally. Ha Ha..I am glad you didn't call me a cultist credulous cretan. Ha ha lol...



tellner said:


> This Crack Fox character is far from being a moron. He's asked the only two important questions:
> 
> What do you know?
> How do you know it?
> 
> MJM and YS's responses actually detract from the sum total of human knowledge. They're simply emotional reactions which come down to "If he asked you that he's an idiot" in about that many words. By saying that they put you on the path of blind obedience and the surrender of your precious faculties of reason and independent thought.
> 
> KG and Yoshiyahu's answers are better. They amount to "I have personal experience" and "Look at what these people have done". I happen to disagree with some of their examples and conclusions, but their approach is that of a thinking adult, not a credulous child or a cultist. All respect to them.
> 
> Myself? I had some Wing Chun from good teachers and found something I liked better taught by better teachers. I found that what I ended up in worked better for me and allowed me to at least hold my own and generally do quite well against some of my old Wing Chun friends who had at least as much time in grade as I.
> 
> You have to find out for yourself.


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## mook jong man

I don't believe I am anything like a cultist , I have trained in other arts and can see the strengths in them , and also the weaknesses in the Wing Chun system .
 If I was just a one eyed Wing Chun man I would not have gone on to learn shootfighting , Krav Maga and Kalis Ilustrisimo.


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## KamonGuy2

I think its dangerous to judge how effective an art is just by getting in a ring. My best mate is a pro boxer and he is awesome to watch in the ring. But he got into a streetfight and hurt his hand. Why? Because he had never hit objects without wrapping his hands up. And because the sponge in the gloves had changed the angle of the strike

Whilst there is no doubt that boxing is one of the best (if not the best) punching styles in the world, I wouldnt say it was effective. Remember that most competitions can go on for 14 rounds. In a streetfight, you want your opponent neutralised in a matter of seconds, or else his friends might get involved, bouncers might drag you away etc

I have never heard of a scenario where my students wing chun failed. The only situations where they were defeated was when the odds were against them (ie they were grabbed by three guys, or a gun was pulled on them etc)

I think you have to pressure test the art in various conditions. A competition is good but not definitive. I had a karate knockdown tournament last year where no-one knocked me down and these were karate black belts. Doesnt mean that karate is a weak art or not effective


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## Eru IlÃºvatar

I agree! I think even Mike Tyson broke his hand when he hit somebody in a bar or something becouse of the same reason. And the thing you speak of, I feel, is a very big problem in the martial arts as people tend to wrap themselves up in a bubble and they don't think anything can hurt them. And then something from outside that bubble comes and it screws them up badly. I think this is a *very* big problem in WC too. For clarifications on what I mean watch the link:


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## mook jong man

Eru Ilúvatar;1112093 said:
			
		

> I agree! I think even Mike Tyson broke his hand when he hit somebody in a bar or something becouse of the same reason. And the thing you speak of, I feel, is a very big problem in the martial arts as people tend to wrap themselves up in a bubble and they don't think anything can hurt them. And then something from outside that bubble comes and it screws them up badly. I think this is a *very* big problem in WC too. For clarifications on what I mean watch the link:


 
Ah yes the old KI Master if I'm not mistaken , that goes far beyond being in a bubble . 
That is what I call collective brain washing , his students were throwing punches at him from five feet out of range and he looked like he'd never been hit before .
 I think in most reputable Wing Chun schools it would be different , or it should be .
In the school I went to in sparring we were encouraged to try and get through an instructors guard and hit them , because they sure as hell didn't mind hitting you .
 Not enough force to really hurt you but you did get your fair share of cut lips , bloody noses , black eyes etc .
But with the Ki Masters school if you look up the word compliance in the dictionary a picture of him and his students would be there.


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## Eru IlÃºvatar

> But with the Ki Masters school if you look up the word compliance in the dictionary a picture of him and his students would be there.


 
lol 

And yeah it's brainwashing. But the sad thing is that the brainwasher managed to brainwash himself...

This is a good one too:




 
And yes, people aren't this far gone usualy but if you look criticly enough you can see it allmost everywhere unfortunately. And yes, sparring is a very good way to check what works. Even tho there are rules.


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## KamonGuy2

Exactly! I got caught in the mouth last night, but it was so much fun I didn't mind! 
It is a great teacher - getting hit. The best fighters are often the ones who get hit and keep coming, rather than the ones who have never been hit 

Like Rocky says - It ain't how hard you hit; it's about how hard you can get hit, and keep moving forward. How much you can take, and keep moving forward...


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## Seeker

Kamon Guy said:


> I think its dangerous to judge how effective an art is just by getting in a ring. My best mate is a pro boxer and he is awesome to watch in the ring. But he got into a streetfight and hurt his hand. Why? Because he had never hit objects without wrapping his hands up. And because the sponge in the gloves had changed the angle of the strike
> 
> Whilst there is no doubt that boxing is one of the best (if not the best) punching styles in the world, I wouldnt say it was effective. Remember that most competitions can go on for 14 rounds. In a streetfight, you want your opponent neutralised in a matter of seconds, or else his friends might get involved, bouncers might drag you away etc
> 
> I have never heard of a scenario where my students wing chun failed. The only situations where they were defeated was when the odds were against them (ie they were grabbed by three guys, or a gun was pulled on them etc)
> 
> I think you have to pressure test the art in various conditions. A competition is good but not definitive. I had a karate knockdown tournament last year where no-one knocked me down and these were karate black belts. Doesnt mean that karate is a weak art or not effective


 
This is no slam on Boxing, I have tons of respect for the sport. But how many times have we seen where two proffesional, in many cases champions get into an out of ring tussle with one another and the boxing goes right out the window. And often times (shudder) ending up on the ground.

I'm sure everyone has seen the Larry Holmes Vs.Trevor Berbick video before.


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## Yoshiyahu

Well the ring is next best step to actual combat. Since you guys do not challenge people on street than the only other way for you to prove your martial arts is by getting in a ring. Now there is difference from on the street and in the ring. Thats what street challenges are for. Now you could challenge people to light contact fight in the street. Or hard contact with a mouth piece and a cup an no gloves. But as for street fighting an boxers. Take someone like Mike Tyson. If he was to fight in a the street fight and he did of course. What do you think the out come would be. The other guy was hurt badly. 

Mike Tyson remained skilled with wrappings and with out wrappings. He still knew how to mixed it up in the street and out the street. Some of these cage fighters and ring fighters who do muay thai no how to adpat to gloves and with out them. So you run into them on the street they won't hurt their hand...but your face and shins and ribs may be hurt if not broke!





Kamon Guy said:


> I think its dangerous to judge how effective an art is just by getting in a ring. My best mate is a pro boxer and he is awesome to watch in the ring. But he got into a streetfight and hurt his hand. Why? Because he had never hit objects without wrapping his hands up. And because the sponge in the gloves had changed the angle of the strike
> 
> Whilst there is no doubt that boxing is one of the best (if not the best) punching styles in the world, I wouldnt say it was effective. Remember that most competitions can go on for 14 rounds. In a streetfight, you want your opponent neutralised in a matter of seconds, or else his friends might get involved, bouncers might drag you away etc
> 
> I have never heard of a scenario where my students wing chun failed. The only situations where they were defeated was when the odds were against them (ie they were grabbed by three guys, or a gun was pulled on them etc)
> 
> I think you have to pressure test the art in various conditions. A competition is good but not definitive. I had a karate knockdown tournament last year where no-one knocked me down and these were karate black belts. Doesnt mean that karate is a weak art or not effective


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## Si-Je

I love those chi brainwashing videos!  Very funny and very scary.  But, Dim Mak is no big secret, lol!
Study your acupressure/puncture, the meridians and what the points affect even for healing and you'll use the same points to hurt.
If you can hurt you can heal and vise versa.
Chi and hard Ki aren't something that a video is gonna prove right or wrong for you.  The paramedics were shocked by the man's students physical reation to the "touchless chi".  Powerful brainwashing sure.  But, can you tell from a video?

Maybe these journalists are faking to sell the documentary?




 
look at this guy, cool video:




Is he just blowing out the candles?

Ripley's believe it or not could be all faking you:




 
These guys can look just as fake, and I've seen alot of guff from folks on other forums and boards (this one is very respectful and that's why I like it 




Can you tell if their faking here?
What about here?  Is his student just pretending to push hard?




 
Isn't chi Sau all about chi, intention, and flowing of "energy" or chi of the opponent.

It's all about how open your mind is, and what your willing to give a shot on.  
Don't believe everything from everyone that claims chi, but don't shut yourself off from the possibility.


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## qwksilver61

Depends on how much time you invest in training and at what level.
Two cents....


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## Si-Je

Yes, I'm a Chi believer... But... 
I'm not flinging myself around or down for anybody! lol!
I'm little, I get enough of that crap already! I don't want any more of it if I can help it.  If your chi can't move me, then tough cookies grandmaster whosiwhatzit.  
If it can, then all respect and teach me that stuff!


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## mook jong man

Si-Je said:


> Yes, I'm a Chi believer... But...
> I'm not flinging myself around or down for anybody! lol!
> I'm little, I get enough of that crap already! I don't want any more of it if I can help it. If your chi can't move me, then tough cookies grandmaster whosiwhatzit.
> If it can, then all respect and teach me that stuff!


 
Two of those videos are from the school I taught at and they are the real deal Si -Je as you Americans like to say .
When I first joined Wing Chun I was what you might call a bit of a doubter , but as I rose up through the ranks and became an instructor I had a lot of contact with Sifu Jim .

I was the one in the class that would always say Sifu Jim can you do that on me so I can see what it feels like . He'd say sure Mark , no worries . 
Well one time he did like a 1 inch double palm strike on me that nearly knocked me into next week , and I am short but pretty solid at 90 kg , and over the years he did several things like that to me .

The other video is about Inst. Tony , one of Sifu Jims most senior instructors , another man I have first hand experience with . 
When he visited Sydney he showed me how he could put his body weight into his arm , he held up his arm in a Dai Sau and I pushed on his arm and indeed it did feel like he had his whole body weight in his arm , It was a real struggle to move him . 

I also asked him if he could demonstrate his speed to me and he threw out a punch or something , I don't know what it was because it was so fast that my eye balls couldn't register it .

 He is a very humble but highly skilled man , on a side note he talked me out of beating the crap out of three drunk dudes that said something crude to my wife one night at a chinese restaurant we were at celebrating Inst. Tony's visit . 
I was so mad that I didn't care that I was out numbered and they were bigger than me , only someone like him that I deeply respected could calm me down .

I won't even talk about Sigung Tsui other than to say he is in a whole different league altogether , you would have to have some tricks up your sleeve if you'd been training continuously since 1951 . For the record I have to say I never witnessed any chi manipulation of peoples bodies from 3 metres away , all the demos that were done on me involved contact and quite painfully so at times .

Its not that I don't believe it exists , in fact I have been watching that show Mind , Body and Kick *** Moves and I have seen some pretty incredible things on that , so I don't rule anything out .
 Its just that I am the type of guy that has to feel it first before I can become a true believer .


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## KamonGuy2

Yoshiyahu said:


> Well the ring is next best step to actual combat.!


No it's not and that's the point we're making
Definately pressure testing your art is good, but the rules of most tournament/ring fights means that they are completely different from streetfighting. A lot of boxers (including my best mate) are so used to a ref breaking them up when it goes to a clinch that they aren't that good at short range stuff
If I was up against a boxer, I would look forward to the clinch and wrapping them up and then employing my short range fak saos



Yoshiyahu said:


> Since you guys do not challenge people on street than the only other way for you to prove your martial arts is by getting in a ring. Now there is difference from on the street and in the ring. Thats what street challenges are for. Now you could challenge people to light contact fight in the street. Or hard contact with a mouth piece and a cup an no gloves. .!


That's veering off topic. The argument is that wing chunners do not test the art's effectiveness. Asking random people on the street to spar with you isn't a streetfight. Most of them would not take it seriously. Others would do silly little jabs designed to catch you out rather than hurt you
And why a cup but no gloves? If you're going to have one bit of protection you might as well go the whole hog!



Yoshiyahu said:


> But as for street fighting an boxers. Take someone like Mike Tyson. If he was to fight in a the street fight and he did of course. What do you think the out come would be. The other guy was hurt badly. .!


Yeah, but so was mike Tyson and that was our point. In most fights I've been in, the only injury I've sustained has been from attacks from the other guy. I've never 'hurt myself', whereas a lot of other arts do
There is a great youtube clip (ill have to dig it out) were a TKD guy initiates a challenge match against a Muay Thai guy. The Tkd guy does one hit and recoils in pain because he has never hit a person for real



Yoshiyahu said:


> Mike Tyson remained skilled with wrappings and with out wrappings. He still knew how to mixed it up in the street and out the street. Some of these cage fighters and ring fighters who do muay thai no how to adpat to gloves and with out them. So you run into them on the street they won't hurt their hand...but your face and shins and ribs may be hurt if not broke!


It is true that a lot of boxers learn how to do bare knuckle fighting, but it is very very different to what they do in the ring and is not technically boxing

Sport competition is very tactical, and more about wearing your opponent out through the rounds

The 16oz gloves also create a bit of a barrier meaning that you have more cover protecting you. When you take the gloves off, there are massive gaps in the guard

In wing chun at Kamon we train 'feeding techniques' where someone will throw in a hard, determined attack and we have to deal with it. At high level, this is the closest you will get to real fighting because there are no rules, no set attacks (anything goes) and there is no protection

And as for cage fighters - most of them will point blank refuise to have any fights (challenges) in a street, because if they injure themselves, their career is jeapordised. If they were pushed (ie someone tried to mug them) then yeah they would defend themselves. But generally if you ask a Cage Fighter what they will do in that situation they just say 'run' or 'let my mates deal with it'

I've learnt from experience that it is not always the best thing to hang around with martial art instructors. Most will avoid fighting and leave you to deal with it!!!


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## astrobiologist

I'm very interested in learning WC.  There is a man who comes by my school in the mornings to train with my fatehr.  He trained WC in China when he was younger.  I'm hoping he will be willing to teach me what he knows.  Also, tonight I am going to check out an MMA school near me.  I'm interested in grappling and sparring, more for the contact and the workout, but maybe I'll see what similarities and differences I can find.  I haven't been in a street fight in a long time (and I hope it stays that way), but I know that in a situation of self-defense I would never start bouncing around with a high guard like sport fighters do.


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## Eru IlÃºvatar

To Si-Je: I don't know if you've seen it but we had quite a discussion on a thread about internal aspects of WC. Some very knowledgable people on the subject have contributed. I sudgest you take a look:http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=71232.

I realy dont know what to think of that first video of John Chang...Who knows, maybe something like that does exist. I think the no-touch knockout stuff is something else then mysterious energy. Something closer to psychology. Check out Derren Browns work! He even did a show with a so called fameous WC instructor from Hong Kong. As for blowing candles, I have no experience on doing it by Chi but I have tryed it once for the sake of fun and managed to extinguish one candle from a 1-2 centimeter distance with a relaxed punch. If you practice it I bet you could get quite good probably.

As for the WC vids you posted; I think you'll like the discussion on the thread I linked. I personaly don't think that theres anything mysterious behind it. Just body structure. I can do it myself to a cetein degree and I can feel the muscles at work when I'm doing it and the pressure in heels. The guy from Mooks school isn't doing exactly that when the guy grabs him from behind but the concept is the same... Instead of transfering the attackers mass/push/punch down your heels he transfers his body weight into his arms. It's just using you'r body structure/mass in a smart way. I got the feeling that on that thread I linked before we sort of silently agreed that this can be called as Chi or internal aspects of WC, but I assure you it's not some mystical energy. Not saying that that doesn't exist, just that this particular stuff can be explained quite well with physics and anatomy.

And check out this guys Chi:


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Much of what you said I tend to agree with. Except for a skilled kicker who is used to real contact. I know some Vietnamese fighters who practice full contact TKD they are not going to hurt there foot kicking you. Lol...

Sound like the TKD you spoke of must never have kicked an heavy bag. Plus boxers are not only trying to wear you down. Thats a tactic against a very strong opponent. Most boxers are looking for that opening to knock you out. Atleast the boxers I hung around with were looking for the knock out. How to get in an tap that chin. There strategy was based on hitting the knock out point. If you have a strong chin then maybe they would try to hit you with body shots to wear your body down an if your not conditioning enough break those rips. 


But it depends on where the boxer is from?

Is he from the street then chances are he has fights all the time in an out the ring...

Is he from the suburbs then chances are he longs for sparring and matches so he can have a fight.

Sometimes practicing art and having it known is all you need to get challenge into a fight. Especially in the hood. People will always won't to challenge you then.


Here in the county people usually watch you do your forms and basics in the park an asked a few questions...but never really approach you.





Kamon Guy said:


> No it's not and that's the point we're making
> Definately pressure testing your art is good, but the rules of most tournament/ring fights means that they are completely different from streetfighting. A lot of boxers (including my best mate) are so used to a ref breaking them up when it goes to a clinch that they aren't that good at short range stuff.
> If I was up against a boxer, I would look forward to the clinch and wrapping them up and then employing my short range fak saos
> 
> 
> That's veering off topic. The argument is that wing chunners do not test the art's effectiveness. Asking random people on the street to spar with you isn't a streetfight. Most of them would not take it seriously. Others would do silly little jabs designed to catch you out rather than hurt you
> And why a cup but no gloves? If you're going to have one bit of protection you might as well go the whole hog!
> 
> 
> Yeah, but so was mike Tyson and that was our point. In most fights I've been in, the only injury I've sustained has been from attacks from the other guy. I've never 'hurt myself', whereas a lot of other arts do
> There is a great youtube clip (ill have to dig it out) were a TKD guy initiates a challenge match against a Muay Thai guy. The Tkd guy does one hit and recoils in pain because he has never hit a person for real
> 
> 
> It is true that a lot of boxers learn how to do bare knuckle fighting, but it is very very different to what they do in the ring and is not technically boxing
> 
> Sport competition is very tactical, and more about wearing your opponent out through the rounds
> 
> The 16oz gloves also create a bit of a barrier meaning that you have more cover protecting you. When you take the gloves off, there are massive gaps in the guard
> 
> In wing chun at Kamon we train 'feeding techniques' where someone will throw in a hard, determined attack and we have to deal with it. At high level, this is the closest you will get to real fighting because there are no rules, no set attacks (anything goes) and there is no protection
> 
> And as for cage fighters - most of them will point blank refuise to have any fights (challenges) in a street, because if they injure themselves, their career is jeapordised. If they were pushed (ie someone tried to mug them) then yeah they would defend themselves. But generally if you ask a Cage Fighter what they will do in that situation they just say 'run' or 'let my mates deal with it'
> 
> I've learnt from experience that it is not always the best thing to hang around with martial art instructors. Most will avoid fighting and leave you to deal with it!!!


----------



## Si-Je

Oh, I'm not saying it's mystical.  It's science. Just have to learn the structure and the way energy flows.
meridians, acupuncture, acupressure, are these things mystical? Some people think so, but the Chinese treat it as science.

And Mook, I just put those videos up to show that watching videos of Chi demos can't prove anything to ya. You said it right, you've got to feel it done on you. As for guys getting hit with Chi several feet away, ah,.. I don't know about all that. But, that one guy blew out candles from far away. Or did he? Don't know. Was it enough force if he did to knock someone down? probably not, who knows? 
And there is alot of physcological mind games teachers play with their students that are "fake" like some of these guys in online videos. But, if the power of the mind is strong enough to make the equipment of a paramedic's go nutz and the student actually feels this stuff because of his mind being tricked isn't that kinda the same thing? or similar? And then so, isn't the mind strong enough to develop chi in more amazing ways? And we're only limited to our minds limitations of accepance of what it THINKS it can do?
Deep. anyways!! lol!

Astrobiologist: Effectiveness of WC/WT:
I've got an idea for you as a new student. Take WC/WT classes for 3-6 months, depending on how often a week you train. If you train 2 days a week wait 6 months, if you train 2 or more days a week then wait 3 months. Then,,... go to the MMA gym and put on the gear and spar them. Use the WC/WT you've learned, test it, feel it out. Find out your strengths and weaknesses, find out WC/WT's strengths and weaknesses.
Then..., go back to Sifu and ask, "Sifu, I was sparring and the guy did "this" to me. I couldn't counter. What do I do if I'm attacked like that?" etc... 
Then see what Sifu says. If he can answer to your satisfaction, or wants you to train longer or a bit harder in WC/WT groovy. If he doesn't want to fool with answering you or helping you. Bugger out of his Kwoon. Find another teacher. It's a self defense and combative art, he should be excited that you're wanting to apply it and spar right away.
Now, if he tells you to wait another couple of months before you spar at the MMA gym again. Then wait, and let him train you some more. Then go back every couple of months to see how your progressing. When you begin to feel more comfortable using the WC/WT in sparring with these guys, go more often. It'll be fun, and give you a goal to reach for when your training Wing Chun.
Make sense?
Train WC, take your time, learn it right, learn it pure and true, then spar when you feel ready. You'll know more than anyone else when YOUR ready to spar like that. Listen to your WC teacher and his/her suggestions on training, sparring, and counters. Even if it's weird. Trust your WC teacher. Ask questions.


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## astrobiologist

Si-Je, thanks for the advice.  I like where you're going with that.  There aren't any WC kwoon in my area, but I am likely moving to Boulder, Colorado this year and may find a good school there.  There is a man who comes to my school who trained in WC years ago and so I may ask him to share some of his knowledge with me.


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## Yoshiyahu

Tell us how it goes with the guy who  trained in WC?




astrobiologist said:


> Si-Je, thanks for the advice. I like where you're going with that. There aren't any WC kwoon in my area, but I am likely moving to Boulder, Colorado this year and may find a good school there. There is a man who comes to my school who trained in WC years ago and so I may ask him to share some of his knowledge with me.


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## astrobiologist

I surely will.  Thank you all for your comments and advice.


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## KamonGuy2

Yoshiyahu said:


> Sound like the TKD you spoke of must never have kicked an heavy bag. Plus boxers are not only trying to wear you down. Thats a tactic against a very strong opponent. Most boxers are looking for that opening to knock you out. Atleast the boxers I hung around with were looking for the knock out. How to get in an tap that chin. There strategy was based on hitting the knock out point. If you have a strong chin then maybe they would try to hit you with body shots to wear your body down an if your not conditioning enough break those rips.
> 
> But it depends on where the boxer is from?
> 
> Is he from the street then chances are he has fights all the time in an out the ring...
> 
> Is he from the suburbs then chances are he longs for sparring and matches so he can have a fight.
> 
> Sometimes practicing art and having it known is all you need to get challenge into a fight. Especially in the hood. People will always won't to challenge you then.
> 
> Here in the county people usually watch you do your forms and basics in the park an asked a few questions...but never really approach you.


 
Like I said, you will get boxers who are very tough guys and work boxing as a street art (ie they never bother in the ring). 

But you're argument was that because wing chun was never in the ring or the cage, it is not as effective as something like boxing or BJJ

My point was that with ring fights and cage fights, you have the luxury of three minute rounds, giving you ample time to play your game, work your tactics at whatever pace you need. It is not like a streetfight, where your opponent is coming in all guns blazing. A boxer will pop out jabs at you and work your guard and work around you. It is too slow.

Certainly most good boxers will have a good enough punch to knock an average joe out after a couple of hits, but nowadays, most people have done some kind of martial art or wil be coming in so intensely that a boxer cannot move the way they ant to. I can proudly say that I can work from any position. Clinch, long range, crowded bar, alleyway, open street, ring, cage etc

Whereas many arts are limited because they need leverage to work

I once saw a boxer in a nightclub who got into a fight where he swung and his punch carried through and hit someone else (not his intended target). It all kicked off and he was taking out by three other people....


----------



## Yoshiyahu

I see your point and agree to a point. I may have not clarifed my statement from earlier. But What I should have said is a boxer who is both trained in the ring and out. Also a Wing Chun guy could benefit from ring training. Not the sport part. The sport only is a guage of your skill against other skilled fighters. But the Ring work such as sparring with the gloves and equipment so you can go all out with your sparring partner with out knocking out teeth and knocking him out. The only difference between the ring and street fighting is one is real a fight the other is controlled fight meaning. When you spar you don't do eye gouges,leg and arm breaks. You don't try to iron palm your sparring partner's head or kill someone in the ring or sparring?


You do so to get practice fighting. Striking, Blocking, Deflecting, Uprooting, Grappling, Kicking, Trapping etc. This is the reason for ring work. In my Humble Opinion Kick Boxers, Boxers and MMA guys are more condition for and all out distance fight. Not because they have three minute rounds but because they train and spar daily. They are constantly fighting in and out the ring. So they have more experience fighting than the average WC guy who hasn't had a street fight in ten years an his WC training is Chi Sau, Two man Drills, Forms, Basic Punches and steps, Practicing kicks in the air and heavy bag, Hitting the wooden dummy and wall bag along with some conditioning exercises. This guy who only has Chi Sau and two man drills for contact will not have the experience a person who spars daily and fights skilled fighters every couple of months. A person who has a MMA fight or Tournment fight once a year for ten years is going to be alot more keen in fighting than someone who only practices his Art with out any contact other than chi sau and partner drills. This is my opinion. Some WC guys live in areas where they fight all the time. I just so happen to have friends and WC Brothers I can spar. Also there are few schools I can go to an spar people. But someone who is fighting with WC in the ring and spars daily will have an advantage over me. That being experience. Its like this you got a guy who reads books on firiing a shot gun. He practices shooting targets, he even practice shooting and aiming with no bullets. But he has never shot a living creature running away. Now you got a guy who is a sniper in the armed forces who has been on duty for three years and has killed ten men with single shot. The Armed Forces guy has an advantage over the guy who just trains with the gun but has never killed with it?

Also a Wing Chun guy who has killed men in hand to hand combat maybe due to fact he is Navy Seal or Marine this guy skills in WC will be to advantage than someone who just practices forms and basics and partner drills and chi sau. The guy who kills with his WC on regular basis will have an advantage over the guy in the ring too. 

But this is my opinion. I am simply saying that Cage,Tournment,MMA,UFC, or Ring Fighting can enhance your fighting skills because you actually gauge your progress and you can do techniques you wouldn't do in a sparring session but it is controlled because the level of intent is capped at submission or knock out. Know breaking,crippling,maiming or killing. But all out fighting.

An if you an end a fight in thirty seconds or less your really a good. So A fight lasting more than three minutes means you need to increase your skills in WC. To me I hope I can learn how to end a fight quickly. In sparring with a partner you can spar for hours. But in the ring you can end it quickly or be defeated quickly depends on who has more skill and power. So for me I think ending a fight in 30 seconds or Minute by way of knock out or submission is what you want to shoot for?

But this is my opinion. If you can knock someone out in thirty seconds imagine what you can do to some in the street? 

You say three minute bouts. i say the fight should end in Thirty seconds by defeating your foe. Which is what you want in the street.

But let me requalify my statement. WC right now is not adapted to ring. But it can. All one has to do is practice your drills with gloves on. Spar with gloves on. practice your forms with gloves on. Practice blocking and chi sau with gloves on. The more you do so the more natural your response shall be in the ring. WC right now in the ring is usually chain punch, front kick, shoot, take down,ground and pound. Which is pretty limited an no other real techniques. The newbi may not know your doing WC?

But all arts have limitations even WC. The trick is to know your limitations and adapt. Like for instance someone is driving 100mph at you with a chevy pick up truck. Don't throw up a Bong Sau or Kwun Sau to deflect the car. Your WC is not that strong. You will be killed. Move,run,jump,dodge get the heck out of the way. Your on the second floor a guys are coming in a room with guns don't try to deflect the bullets with tan sau. Jump out the window and brace for impact and roll on the grass to stop from breaking your legs. Then run or press upagainst the building. You have to know when to break the rules and when to follow the rules. 

I believe WC is a very effective art. But I believe you an always find ways to improve your fighting ability in the streets. Also I don't know if you seen the TKD Olympics. But they don't do any timing or give you time to set up a technique. They go pretty fast an throw everything they can at you but the kitchen sink. Some Kick Boxers with alot stamina do the same. Your Technique comes in by not getting knocked on your **** and landing clean strikes to knock them. But again this is my opinion. I feel my view point before was not correctly posted. I am sorry I dont think I explained my self well.






Kamon Guy said:


> Like I said, you will get boxers who are very tough guys and work boxing as a street art (ie they never bother in the ring).





Kamon Guy said:


> But you're argument was that because wing chun was never in the ring or the cage, it is not as effective as something like boxing or BJJ
> 
> My point was that with ring fights and cage fights, you have the luxury of three minute rounds, giving you ample time to play your game, work your tactics at whatever pace you need. It is not like a streetfight, where your opponent is coming in all guns blazing. A boxer will pop out jabs at you and work your guard and work around you. It is too slow.
> 
> Certainly most good boxers will have a good enough punch to knock an average joe out after a couple of hits, but nowadays, most people have done some kind of martial art or wil be coming in so intensely that a boxer cannot move the way they ant to. I can proudly say that I can work from any position. Clinch, long range, crowded bar, alleyway, open street, ring, cage etc
> 
> Whereas many arts are limited because they need leverage to work
> 
> I once saw a boxer in a nightclub who got into a fight where he swung and his punch carried through and hit someone else (not his intended target). It all kicked off and he was taking out by three other people....


----------



## KamonGuy2

Yoshiyahu said:


> I see your point and agree to a point. I may have not clarifed my statement from earlier. But What I should have said is a boxer who is both trained in the ring and out. Also a Wing Chun guy could benefit from ring training. Not the sport part. The sport only is a guage of your skill against other skilled fighters. But the Ring work such as sparring with the gloves and equipment so you can go all out with your sparring partner with out knocking out teeth and knocking him out. The only difference between the ring and street fighting is one is real a fight the other is controlled fight meaning. When you spar you don't do eye gouges,leg and arm breaks. You don't try to iron palm your sparring partner's head or kill someone in the ring or sparring?
> 
> 
> You do so to get practice fighting. Striking, Blocking, Deflecting, Uprooting, Grappling, Kicking, Trapping etc. This is the reason for ring work. In my Humble Opinion Kick Boxers, Boxers and MMA guys are more condition for and all out distance fight. Not because they have three minute rounds but because they train and spar daily. They are constantly fighting in and out the ring. So they have more experience fighting than the average WC guy who hasn't had a street fight in ten years an his WC training is Chi Sau, Two man Drills, Forms, Basic Punches and steps, Practicing kicks in the air and heavy bag, Hitting the wooden dummy and wall bag along with some conditioning exercises. This guy who only has Chi Sau and two man drills for contact will not have the experience a person who spars daily and fights skilled fighters every couple of months. A person who has a MMA fight or Tournment fight once a year for ten years is going to be alot more keen in fighting than someone who only practices his Art with out any contact other than chi sau and partner drills. This is my opinion. Some WC guys live in areas where they fight all the time. I just so happen to have friends and WC Brothers I can spar. Also there are few schools I can go to an spar people. But someone who is fighting with WC in the ring and spars daily will have an advantage over me. That being experience. Its like this you got a guy who reads books on firiing a shot gun. He practices shooting targets, he even practice shooting and aiming with no bullets. But he has never shot a living creature running away. Now you got a guy who is a sniper in the armed forces who has been on duty for three years and has killed ten men with single shot. The Armed Forces guy has an advantage over the guy who just trains with the gun but has never killed with it?
> 
> Also a Wing Chun guy who has killed men in hand to hand combat maybe due to fact he is Navy Seal or Marine this guy skills in WC will be to advantage than someone who just practices forms and basics and partner drills and chi sau. The guy who kills with his WC on regular basis will have an advantage over the guy in the ring too.
> 
> But this is my opinion. I am simply saying that Cage,Tournment,MMA,UFC, or Ring Fighting can enhance your fighting skills because you actually gauge your progress and you can do techniques you wouldn't do in a sparring session but it is controlled because the level of intent is capped at submission or knock out. Know breaking,crippling,maiming or killing. But all out fighting.
> 
> An if you an end a fight in thirty seconds or less your really a good. So A fight lasting more than three minutes means you need to increase your skills in WC. To me I hope I can learn how to end a fight quickly. In sparring with a partner you can spar for hours. But in the ring you can end it quickly or be defeated quickly depends on who has more skill and power. So for me I think ending a fight in 30 seconds or Minute by way of knock out or submission is what you want to shoot for?
> 
> But this is my opinion. If you can knock someone out in thirty seconds imagine what you can do to some in the street?
> 
> You say three minute bouts. i say the fight should end in Thirty seconds by defeating your foe. Which is what you want in the street.
> 
> But let me requalify my statement. WC right now is not adapted to ring. But it can. All one has to do is practice your drills with gloves on. Spar with gloves on. practice your forms with gloves on. Practice blocking and chi sau with gloves on. The more you do so the more natural your response shall be in the ring. WC right now in the ring is usually chain punch, front kick, shoot, take down,ground and pound. Which is pretty limited an no other real techniques. The newbi may not know your doing WC?
> 
> But all arts have limitations even WC. The trick is to know your limitations and adapt. Like for instance someone is driving 100mph at you with a chevy pick up truck. Don't throw up a Bong Sau or Kwun Sau to deflect the car. Your WC is not that strong. You will be killed. Move,run,jump,dodge get the heck out of the way. Your on the second floor a guys are coming in a room with guns don't try to deflect the bullets with tan sau. Jump out the window and brace for impact and roll on the grass to stop from breaking your legs. Then run or press upagainst the building. You have to know when to break the rules and when to follow the rules.
> 
> I believe WC is a very effective art. But I believe you an always find ways to improve your fighting ability in the streets. Also I don't know if you seen the TKD Olympics. But they don't do any timing or give you time to set up a technique. They go pretty fast an throw everything they can at you but the kitchen sink. Some Kick Boxers with alot stamina do the same. Your Technique comes in by not getting knocked on your **** and landing clean strikes to knock them. But again this is my opinion. I feel my view point before was not correctly posted. I am sorry I dont think I explained my self well.


If you train 
Your wing chun without contact then you need to switch schools. And quickly. At Kamon we are training contact every lesson. Obviously it will never go to full contact, but no art does. 

You cant hit someone full contact in the face during a practice session because you can cause serious injury to your training partner and they wont come back!

So we go to the next best thing. Using the chest for full power hits and using controlled energy to deal strikes to the face that your opponent can handle. Over time, this builds up

Beginners obviously cant hit each other full in the face, because they havent conditioned themselves to take it. So over time of limited contact, they become more adept at taking a hit

At advanced level, we train very hard hits to the face because we know that our training partner can take it

People who glove up and go at it hells bells annoy me. That is not full contact. It is like me grabbing a sponge baseball bat and hitting someone with it and claiming Ive hit them with a real baseball bat

Certainly gloved up punches are hard, but I would rather take a gloved up punch than a full palm strike in wing chun

Ring fighting is pointless. Too many rules. I fight karate knockdowns, which is bare knuckle, and even that isnt realistic because there are still too many rules
In all the arts I study, wing chun has the most contact

Pressure testing your martial arts is always important, but dont take pressure testing as a sign of real combat. 
What I would say to chunners is dont take your wing chun into a sport format, because you will lose. If people want to glove up and spar etc, great, but dont use your wing chun to do that. For examples of why not, just look at youtube


Finally, you are quoting the Olympic TKD as a good example of pressure testing? Seriously, get out there and have a look around. The Olympic TKD stuff was a joke. Bad martial arts from a bad art


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Okay what I was saying is it wise. To allow people to put on face shields and mouth piece with gloves and throw punches at the face. Now in a real fight you might get punched in the face an feel pain. But the purpose of the training is to get use to different types of strikes being thrown hard at you. To be able to block them easily by constant pressure training of non-stop sparring. An also it gives beginners a chance to feel how WC works in a fighting scenario...its merely a training tool. An gives you more experience which may help prepare you for a fight. Now of course you may not have endurance in the face or body yet. But you can break down other exercises where you slap the face with out the gloves and equipment. An then your practice sparring with no gear an only hit the chest and stomach. But with full fledge equipment you can do somethings with a harder blows that you may not want to deal with with out gear. Atleast for beginners.


Do you see my point. I agree that gloves are not as painful as palm strike to the face. Depending though on the person power too. But what I am saying is it gives you a chance to feel real contact. or More contact. But your are right. I agree with you totally. I guess your missing my point. 


By the way I like your ideas below great...





Kamon Guy said:


> If you train
> Your wing chun without contact then you need to switch schools. And quickly. At Kamon we are training contact every lesson. Obviously it will never go to full contact, but no art does.
> 
> You cant hit someone full contact in the face during a practice session because you can cause serious injury to your training partner and they wont come back!
> 
> So we go to the next best thing. Using the chest for full power hits and using controlled energy to deal strikes to the face that your opponent can handle. Over time, this builds up
> 
> Beginners obviously cant hit each other full in the face, because they havent conditioned themselves to take it. So over time of limited contact, they become more adept at taking a hit
> 
> At advanced level, we train very hard hits to the face because we know that our training partner can take it
> 
> People who glove up and go at it hells bells annoy me. That is not full contact. It is like me grabbing a sponge baseball bat and hitting someone with it and claiming Ive hit them with a real baseball bat
> 
> Certainly gloved up punches are hard, but I would rather take a gloved up punch than a full palm strike in wing chun
> 
> Ring fighting is pointless. Too many rules. I fight karate knockdowns, which is bare knuckle, and even that isnt realistic because there are still too many rules
> In all the arts I study, wing chun has the most contact
> 
> Pressure testing your martial arts is always important, but dont take pressure testing as a sign of real combat.
> What I would say to chunners is dont take your wing chun into a sport format, because you will lose. If people want to glove up and spar etc, great, but dont use your wing chun to do that. For examples of why not, just look at youtube
> 
> 
> Finally, you are quoting the Olympic TKD as a good example of pressure testing? Seriously, get out there and have a look around. The Olympic TKD stuff was a joke. Bad martial arts from a bad art


----------



## Tez3

qwksilver61 said:


> I did'nt know that Jesus could Kick box?


 

http://www.fightclothing.co.uk/m8/Jesus+Didn't+Tap/index.html?gclid=CLiRw5fjyJgCFcyR3wodAETh1A


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## elder999

Tez3 said:


> http://www.fightclothing.co.uk/m8/Jesus+Didn't+Tap/index.html?gclid=CLiRw5fjyJgCFcyR3wodAETh1A


 

That's so dumb.



> *Matthew 26:39*:
> And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.


 
*Jesus tapped,*_but the *"Ref"* wanted the match to continue to the end._ :lol:


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## Yoshiyahu

Come on guys lets get back on topic?


----------



## Hagakure

Yoshiyahu said:


> An if you an end a fight in thirty seconds or less your really a good. So A fight lasting more than three minutes means you need to increase your skills in WC. To me I hope I can learn how to end a fight quickly. In sparring with a partner you can spar for hours. But in the ring you can end it quickly or be defeated quickly depends on who has more skill and power. So for me I think ending a fight in 30 seconds or Minute by way of knock out or submission is what you want to shoot for?
> 
> 
> But this is my opinion. If you can knock someone out in thirty seconds imagine what you can do to some in the street?
> 
> You say three minute bouts. i say the fight should end in Thirty seconds by defeating your foe. Which is what you want in the street.


 
Yoshi, read some of Geoff Thompsons work, if you've not already, I'd highly recommend his work. He's a former doorman whose meant to have had literally "thousands of fights". In his book "3 second fighter", Geoff explains that in his pretty extensive experience, most fights were over and done with in 3 seconds. This is highly unlikely in the MMA cage, not impossible, but it's unusual for a fight to be over in this short a period of time. 

Most of us, that "probably" includes the average street thug would be classed as an amateur fighter. I personally think that this highlights the main difference between MMA/TMA/styles etc. Not the arts themselves, but the extent to which they're trained. Most guys that compete in the ring, and I'm talking about the higher level tournies here, are either pro, or semi pro. They train and train and train, that's all they do. They'll take far more knocks than the average amateur guy who trains for a few hours a week will, and they'll be far more accustomed to getting smacked around, it is, after all, part and parcel of their job.

My opinion is such, that I believe Wing Chun to be an extremely proactive, simple art that is quick and aggressive, and accustomed to close range fighting, which in nightclub toilets, doorways, pubs, will come in very handy. While it's not always applicable for all of us to become ring fighters, what we train can still be used as a force multiplier that will hopefully mean that if we come under attack, we'll (hopefully) live to type on here another day. 

H


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## skinters

Hagakure said:


> Yoshi, read some of Geoff Thompsons work, if you've not already, I'd highly recommend his work. He's a former doorman whose meant to have had literally "thousands of fights". In his book "3 second fighter", Geoff explains that in his pretty extensive experience, most fights were over and done with in 3 seconds. This is highly unlikely in the MMA cage, not impossible, but it's unusual for a fight to be over in this short a period of time.



geoff thompsons,very good,he has a technique as you know called the fence,which he uses to control people on the door in a non threatning way.for example he might extend his hand and touch the persons arm,just enough to give him warning of any violent movements.the person knows he is being controled,but cannot undertstand how.

geoff talks about the fence here. some of the best self defence advice you will see. 




you can draw a lot of similiarities with this technique and those practiced in wingchun.


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## Hagakure

skinters said:


> geoff thompsons,very good,he has a technique as you know called the fence,which he uses to control people on the door in a non threatning way.for example he might extend his hand and touch the persons arm,just enough to give him warning of any violent movements.the person knows he is being controled,but cannot undertstand how.
> 
> geoff talks about the fence here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you can draw a lot of similiarities with this technique and those practiced in wingchun.


 
Yeah, the fence. That's a great idea isn't it. GT's obviously used it himself many times, and, it looks very similar to a WC stance in the first place. 

It's the whole (You) "I don't wanna fight mate, seriously" (with forward guard arm up) and BLAM! Then run.


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## skinters

Hagakure said:


> Yeah, the fence. That's a great idea isn't it. GT's obviously used it himself many times, and, it looks very similar to a WC stance in the first place.
> 
> It's the whole (You) "I don't wanna fight mate, seriously" (with forward guard arm up) and BLAM! Then run.



i think aswell geoff coined the phrase,and its application.he makes a reference to wingchun in the second part of the video i posted.

 BLAM! Then run.or in geoffs case follow up with a few more .


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## Si-Je

Okay, so the effectiveness of Wing Chun as an art of real self-defense, how effective is the art (not the practitioner, the practitioner can always get better, stronger, more experienced) Right? Isn't that the subject, the question?

Is it effective fighting or SD for you to focus your kicks to the persons leg, knee, inner theigh, and groin for SD?

Is it effective striking style to chain punch and follow through when attacking? Is there real power there? 

Is it effective to use the "blocks"/deflections of WC in a true confrontation? Can you bust out a tan sau or pak sau when needed? Does it work in the street?

Wing Chun being created as a SD/ street fighting style from it's conception and during it's evolution the past 200+ years, it's practitioners and founders constantly testing it in street fights, challenges, and such would validate it's effectiveness to me.  But, not to others maybe. I'd recomend what I recomended before.  Focus on what your Sifu's training you. Don't worry about the "full contact" or sparring yet.  You just started. Focus on technique, getting the angles right on your deflections, kicking properly, getting comfortable with your stance, and building up your chain punching speed, accuracy, and endurance.
Then, work the punching and kicking bags. Build your POWER then.
Then, work with more application in "light sparring".
Then, when your doing well there work with more heavy and spontaneous sparring.  
Give all this a good 6 months.  In 6 months of training technique and application then work more on "heavy sparring".  That kind of thing will only fluster you, make you get out of technique, and enforce you to focus too much on power.  Be patient, train the techniques, drill them, repetition, repetition, walk around in basic stance until you can turn any direction at will comfortably.  After all this in 6 month time frame (depending on how often you train. 6 months for 2 days a week, maybe 3 months of 4 days a week.) Then focus on sparring heavy.
Don't jump the gun, you'll just get frustrated and discouraged.
Patience.
Train.
Learn.. First.
Then fight.


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## Hagakure

skinters said:


> i think aswell geoff coined the phrase,and its application.he makes a reference to wingchun in the second part of the video i posted.
> 
> BLAM! Then run.or in geoffs case follow up with a few more .



Mate, didn't have chance to watch those vids earlier, I was at work, and YT is a site no-one's allowed on, but thank you for posting that. I have man-love for Geoff Thompson, and I agreed with his comments about Wing Chun. I would add the caveat that as a chunner, it'd be fairly easy to alter our normal en guard stance to "The Fence" without it seeming too unnatural. 

That's another plus to the usefulness of WC as a true self defence method.


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## Yoshiyahu

How Effective would WC be in War?


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## astrobiologist

Doesn't that depend on the type of warfare?  A battalion over a mile away who launch a missile at you...  well, none of us can train a technique that will defend against that.

Like I've said before, I have not yet trained in WC.  I would really like to find an instructor and see if WC is a good fit for me.  Being an "outsider", I wonder at the stories I've read of Ip Man and other WC practitioners.  the stories mention strengths of WC, but I wonder (1) are the stories more of a mythology, and (2) the stories usually tend to mention a WC practitioner versus a CMA or JMA practitioner or someone of no martial arts background at all.  I wonder, do any of you WC practitioners spar with people who train in other arts?

From the view I've had of WC so far, I reallt think an understanding of Wing Chun would benefit me.  I guess I really won't be able to chime in as to the effectiveness of WC again until I actually train in the style and learn a bit more about it and then put it to the test (hopefully in full-on sparring rather than a street fight, though).


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## Si-Je

astrobiologist said:


> Doesn't that depend on the type of warfare? A battalion over a mile away who launch a missile at you... well, none of us can train a technique that will defend against that.
> 
> Like I've said before, I have not yet trained in WC. I would really like to find an instructor and see if WC is a good fit for me. Being an "outsider", I wonder at the stories I've read of Ip Man and other WC practitioners. the stories mention strengths of WC, but I wonder (1) are the stories more of a mythology, and (2) the stories usually tend to mention a WC practitioner versus a CMA or JMA practitioner or someone of no martial arts background at all. I wonder, do any of you WC practitioners spar with people who train in other arts?
> 
> From the view I've had of WC so far, I reallt think an understanding of Wing Chun would benefit me. I guess I really won't be able to chime in as to the effectiveness of WC again until I actually train in the style and learn a bit more about it and then put it to the test (hopefully in full-on sparring rather than a street fight, though).


 
Well honestly. Back in the day (not to long ago either) folks in China would fight the hell out of eachother all the time.  They would have big stages in the marketplace where people could challenge and fight eachother for all to see. This was really common.  The move "Fearless" was based on a true story with the real man that unified Wu Shu Kung Fu. So, sure take the stories with a grain of salt, but also know that even in the 1960's WC people still fought eachother on the rooftops in Hong Kong, that Eagle Claw Kung Fu and WC have been enemies for ever and I'd bet they Still fight in the streets about it.  Sometimes to the death.  It's a different country, different rules and it does sound fantastic from the perpective of our culture and laws. But, folks do different stuff overseas.  
Probably the reason most of these stories include WC fighting against another CMA or JMA is because well, in China (even still today) everybody's always fighting over who has the best kung fu.  And you better prove it. 
The Japanese and the Chinese have hated eachother for like, well, forever probably. And the Japanese have actually in times conqured parts of China and oppressed the people there, so, they've fought alot.
Not until Bruce Lee came along did anyone in America ever even hear of Wing Chun.  He was a big movie star, but before that he was a Wing Chun teacher in California.  The Chinese masters kinda freaked and didn't like him teaching their good stuff to us sloppy Americans.  So, he moved on with JKD, and for other reasons created that art and was more known for it too.
But, he was a hard core chunner, and fought alot in Hong Kong before coming to the states, he exposed more people to the art.  Yip Man taught more people than previous masters of Wing Chun, but Bruce Lee made it famous.  Internationally.  Yip Man was Bruce's teacher.  Well, one of them, his first teacher of WC.  

So, it's a young art for a kung fu style. (only about 200 years old)
It's been tested time and time again in the heat of battle.
It's been largely taught to only one or two students of a master at a time, until GM Yip Man who taught many.

Ex. Some say it came from a nun (or 5 monks, whatever)
she or they had One official student, Yim Wing Chun.
She taught only her husband.
He taught only like two people. and so on and so on until GM Yip Man. WC was largely passed down to only a very select few.  Why? I don't know.

But, now it's available to almost anyone who wants to seek it out.  Thanks to Yip Man and Bruce Lee, I think, for opening the door to more people, they stoped making it a "secret".

If you get the chance man, take the art. Don't worry so much about "practicality", train. It's foundatation is baptised in the very blood of practicality.  Others did the work for us, reap the benefits.  Train it for a good 6 months to a year whatever and get in a match at a tournament, cage, MMA club, sparr with friends and try it out.

And to answer the other question, yes, many here do spar and train with other stylists to keep their WC sharp.    That's all part of the best of the fun of WC. If you want to compete it's a good art for that, if you want serious self defense, it's one of the best you could take for that.  You just have to put the time in training, just like anyother art.


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## mook jong man

One thing that your assuming is that all Wing Chun is the same , there are different lineages and they all do things in different ways . I have seen some schools where the difference in the way they do things is like that of Karate to Kung Fu , different stances , different guard configurations and different ways of countering common attacks .

 For instance we had a guy come into our academy for a visit from Mexico , very nice fellow . He wanted to do some chi sau sparring with me , so I obliged . As soon as we started rolling he went into a one foot forward stance , I said how come you do that and he said thats the way we are taught to do chi sau .

 His hands were very quick , but I saw that leg sticking out in front of me so I sweeped him to the floor and I did that about five times . After training I took him down the pub for a few beers and he told me stories of how he had to use his Wing  Chun to save a girl that was about to be raped and had to use his Wing Chun to defend himself in other encounters , so the impression I got is that Mexico city is a very violent place .

 But he made his Wing Chun work for him even though his was as different to ours as chalk and cheese. What I am saying is just don't settle on one flavour of Wing Chun take a sample of them all , and then you will have to decide on which one you think is the most practical for you .

 I was astonished to hear that some Wing Chun schools in the U.S don't even do sparring , If you go to a school and they don't do hard chi sau sparring and also sparring of the type with random punches and kicks thrown at you with realistic power and speed , then you should turn around and walk right out that door .

 Because in my opinion that is not a martial art that is just playing with peoples hands in nice prearranged patterns , and those people will get a big wake up call on the street when the first lightning fast jab comes rocketing into their face .


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## Hagakure

astrobiologist said:


> Doesn't that depend on the type of warfare?  A battalion over a mile away who launch a missile at you...  well, none of us can train a technique that will defend against that.
> 
> Like I've said before, I have not yet trained in WC.  I would really like to find an instructor and see if WC is a good fit for me.  Being an "outsider", I wonder at the stories I've read of Ip Man and other WC practitioners.  the stories mention strengths of WC, but I wonder (1) are the stories more of a mythology, and (2) the stories usually tend to mention a WC practitioner versus a CMA or JMA practitioner or someone of no martial arts background at all.  I wonder, do any of you WC practitioners spar with people who train in other arts?
> 
> From the view I've had of WC so far, I reallt think an understanding of Wing Chun would benefit me.  I guess I really won't be able to chime in as to the effectiveness of WC again until I actually train in the style and learn a bit more about it and then put it to the test (hopefully in full-on sparring rather than a street fight, though).




No one can truly assess the effectiveness of WC, only the effectiveness of WC for them. A crap martial artist who trains once a month, puts no effort in, doesn't look after themselves body and mind, it doesn't matter if they train Wing Chun, Karate, MMA or if they have a small thermo nuclear warhead to their backs it won't work.

As I've mentioned, my beliefs for the hallmark of an effective MA for SD is simple to learn, simple to use, easy to adapt to be aggressively proactive (why let the other guy get the first shot in?) in a SD scenario. In my eyes WC ticks all the boxes. Also, not meant in a funny way, but you can theorise about the effectiveness of WC all you like, but it's all just talk unless you just go and find out for yourself in a class.


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## skinters

mook you said:One thing that your assuming is that all Wing Chun is the same  there are different lineages and they all do things in different ways .

you know i think over the years wingchun had become diluted,and although i have always looked at winchun as a living,changing form,to much change away from the essence of the basics can,and does in my eyes result in the form,being less effective.you can see the proof in this by just taking a look at all the different lineages,and offshoots.also people taking a few lessons of WC,and then passing it on making the form weaker still.

how much real WC is there?,i mean you only got to look on youtube for example to see how poor it is.i know the old maxim,that it is the man who is the style,but you still need a strong style to work with.


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## chisauking

Is wing chun effective?

Is a hammer designed for hammering nails effective?

Is a car made for transport effective?

Is wing chun -- a method conceived for inflicting damage & killing -- effective?


Yes, as long as you 1, you use it for its intended purpose. 2, the competence of the user.

For example, if you use a hammer to screw a nail, then no, it isn't effective. If the car is driven by a blind person, then no the car isn't effective.

No different for wing chun. If you use it for sport, then no, it will not be effective, because it wasn't conceived for that purpose. If the practitioner hasn't the skills to apply wing chun and isn't prepared to use it in the way it was intended to be used -- with full conviction & with violent intent, doing what ever it takes, using all the tools to its fullest -- then no, wing chun isn't effective.

Take wing chun's lin-wan keun, for example. Most people say it doesn't work. But...how did they come to this conclusion? Well, you would laugh at the answer: they put on heavy protective helmets & 12oz boxing gloves, wearing no shoes, sparring on nice padded mats with nice rules.

Under those conditions, is it no wonder that wing chun's lin-wan keun doesn't work? Wing chun's lin-wan keun works in conjuction with the the footwork and kicks. It's the equaverlent of the foil in fencing, not the excaliber. It's a fast weapon that targets weak points, and it keeps chasing the same damaged points until the opponent is finished. It relies in the speed to hit the opponent before they can react, and the practitioner must be prepared to smash the opponent's eyes & nose, and stomp kick the knees in a contigous manner to prevent the opponent from retaliating. If you wear thick helments, how's the punch suppose to get in? If your not prepared to inflict real damage to your opponent, how can fast punches work? The answer is, under 'kick boxing' conditions, it doesn't work. 

No different for any other tools\weapon. Put a glove on a hammer and it's no longer effective. Put a nib on the end of a foil and it wouldn't even go through soft butter.

Any one with intelligence can see from my examples that any tool is only as effective as when used for its intended purpose by a competent user.


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## KamonGuy2

skinters said:


> mook you said:One thing that your assuming is that all Wing Chun is the same there are different lineages and they all do things in different ways .
> 
> you know i think over the years wingchun had become diluted,and although i have always looked at winchun as a living,changing form,to much change away from the essence of the basics can,and does in my eyes result in the form,being less effective.you can see the proof in this by just taking a look at all the different lineages,and offshoots.also people taking a few lessons of WC,and then passing it on making the form weaker still.
> 
> how much real WC is there?,i mean you only got to look on youtube for example to see how poor it is.i know the old maxim,that it is the man who is the style,but you still need a strong style to work with.


 
Groan. I'm tired of people calling wing chun 'diluted'. If anything, it has become stronger. What has happened is that countries have collided in the modern age and people are more aware of other arts

In Yip Man's era, there was access to a very limited amount of martial arts. Schools were very secretive, and travelling to the other side of the world was extremely difficult

Therefore, people in Hng kong would rarely know of 'western arts' and vice versa
Nowadays we have things like UFC, Pride, Open tournaments, olympics, SENI, internet, etc, where martial arts are very accessible

This means that many good arts get 'crowded out' or compared to other arts. This is where wing chun starts to expand rapidly

Too many 'traditionalists' (or 'idiots' as I like to call them) insist that you only ever need one art to fight good martial artists. I have never witnessed this being successful yet, and it was the first thing Bruce Lee found out when he came to America. Sure he hadn't mastered wing chun, but he was very good at what he did know, and knew it wasn't enough. He recognised that there was a need for grappling and long range techniques

In this modern era, GOOD wing chun practitioners acknowledge that every style lacks something and needs to be progressive and expansive in order to maintain validity

If you get a guy, train him in one art for 30 years, of course he is going to be good to a degree. But they will still be very blinkered. 

A CKD instructor who I trained under boasted very opnely to his students that he had traiend for 30+ years
When it came down to it, he was fast, he had power, but when someone came at him and put pressure on, he folded. His defence against a grab was terrible and unrealistic. Yet he refused to train out of his system. I consider it essential to get out there and look at other styles. Get an idea of how times change and look at things from other angles. 

Wing chun is effective. It has techniques that many other arts do not have and builds good qualities in students. The main thing is not to get carried away thinking that the art is flawless and perfect the way it is


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## Ben Grimm

Have to agree with you 100%. Times have changed and arts have been modified. It doesn't necessarily make the art weaker, but it can if the person making the modifications is an idiot.


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## KamonGuy2

Perfectly put.


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## WCman1976

astrobiologist said:


> Hello. I am new to Wing Chun. I have not yet found a school or an instructor. I have simply been reading and watching videos about WC. It seems like Wing Chun could be a very effective style. I had posted something to this effect on a forum at **************. A member responded with this...
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CrackFox*
> _Have you tried many martial arts that emphasise clinch range fighting against a fully resisting opponent? There's very little evidence to support your assertion, so I'm wondering what frame of reference you're using to assess Wing Chung's effectiveness._
> 
> The assertion he spoke of is that Wing Chun seems like an effective style. I responded with this:
> 
> There aren't many martial arts that emphasize in-fighting almost solely. However, taking an analytical look at Okinawan, Japanese, and Korean martial arts one will see elements similar to wing chun emphasized in the techniques and forms. Students studying the Seisan Kata of Isshinryu such as myself may see that they are preactising the Wing Chun bong sau and tan sau techniques during the second set of techniques they perform. These together are also similar to the inside-to-outside block/strike of Shotokan and Tang Soo Do. They are effective for a quick block/parry and a strike.
> 
> From my reading it sounds like there could be a lot of "evidence" for the effectiveness of Wing Chun, but for the most part it is hear-say. I wonder if your "evidence" for backing up why you think Wing Chun is not effective is also hear-say. It can be pretty difficult to determine what stories you hear in the martial arts are true and which aren't. My reasoning for seeing Wing Chun as effective is that I see simple, strong techniques which are not committed. I see a style where the emphasis is for getting away from the flashy", baton-twirling we see in a lot of martial arts. Wing Chun has a focus on using a minimal energy to deflect, trap, or strike. I'm not saying that Wing Chun is the ultimate martial art. Indeed, I don't really even practise this art myself. All I'm saying is that I see a system for close range fighting which appears to have effective techniques.
> 
> I wonder what system you think must be better. Maybe Krav Maga, Modern Army Combatives, Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu? I think if you actually take a look at these arts and many others you'll see that many of the principles for in-fighting are similar (not the grappling, the close range fighting when arms have not yet been trapped or just at the moment of trapping/clinching). From my own observations, it seems like Wing Chun emphasizes the best of all of these techniques. From deflections and parries, to controlling wrists and elbows, to getting under or over a guard, to quick impulse-based short range strikes, to low-body attacks with the legs and blocking with the legs. There aren't any of the over-the-head haymakers, or jump spinning kicks, or similar moves which can be great for exercise but are not very useful in close-range self defense.
> 
> 
> I was wandering what some long time practitioners of Wing Chun thought. Can you school me here? Is there anything else I should add in my response to this guy? Are my points valid?
> 
> Like I said I'm new to learning about Wing Chun, but I think it would be a great addition to my martial art.



It's interesting that you point out the other styles that have in-fighting as part of their system. The techniques are very similiar because, honestly, in such limited space it'd be difficult to do TOO much. Having said that, I have studied wing chun for some time now. I've never had to use it in a real fight. However, I've had instances where my brother-in-law tried to come at me. (He's one of those alpha male types who, when in a verbal argument, is quick to get physical when the argument exceeds his mental capabilities.) After spending years of training in a style based on speed (and practicing chi sao against others ALSO trained in said style), it looked to me like my brother-in-law was moving in slow motion. He seriously intended to do me harm, but he never touched me. Wing chun helps to minimize your reaction time by relying on fast techniques. They may not be knockout blows, but they serve their purpose: to keep the OTHER guy's knockout blow from reaching you first! After all, you could be fighting the strongest person in the world...but all that strength means nothing if they can never land a blow.


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