# Racism in Martial Arts



## wingchun100 (Jan 27, 2017)

On this board, we have discussed transgendered people and LGBT people in martial arts. Now I would like to see what people think about THIS particular issue.

Last Sunday I was at my Wing Chun class. There were four people there total: the Sifu, two other gentlemen, and myself. For those of you who have not seen my previous profile picture, I am a white boy. However, I have daughters who are part black. You will see why I needed to preface the story with that in a moment.

I was doing Chi Sao with the Sifu when I overheard a conversation that the other two gentlemen were having. One man started talking about how he hated the whole "Black Lives Matter" thing, and the other said, "Yeah, I'm sick of those N-words complaining."

I stopped doing Chi Sao immediately and told them I did not appreciate that kind of talk, and it was very offensive to me. They just looked at me funny, then continued doing their practice. Then it dawned on me: "Wow...only 4 people here, and 50% of them said offensive things!"

Personally, I don't feel like training with these gentlemen anymore. My love of my daughters exceeds my love of Wing Chun training, and it is my belief that by hanging out with them, they will probably think I am okay with it after all.

At any rate, I do have other ways in which I could pursue Wing Chun training without having to feel like I sold out any other beliefs that I have.

I'm not asking anyone what they think I should have done. I posted this because the question is, "What would YOU do?"


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 27, 2017)

I do not like racists.  I do not associate with racists.  I do not silently permit racists to think that their public statements are OK just because no one contradicts them.  I would immediately speak up as you did.  I would leave any training facility that permitted such discussion without putting an immediate stop to it.

The dojo where I train, thankfully, is not like that.  We have many students from every walk of life.  All are welcome.  Every race, sex, sexual orientation, physical disability, skin color, religion, etc.  We train karate, we do not judge.  We don't offer personal opinions in the dojo.

While I am sure that some students entertain their own personal opinions about a wide variety of things, none of that is anyone's business as long as it is not discussed in the dojo.  We are there to train.  We are a family and we behave as one, but we respect each other as fellow karate students first and foremost.


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## Headhunter (Jan 27, 2017)

Well what did the instructor have to say about it


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## wingchun100 (Jan 27, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I do not like racists.  I do not associate with racists.  I do not silently permit racists to think that their public statements are OK just because no one contradicts them.  I would immediately speak up as you did.  I would leave any training facility that permitted such discussion without putting an immediate stop to it.
> 
> The dojo where I train, thankfully, is not like that.  We have many students from every walk of life.  All are welcome.  Every race, sex, sexual orientation, physical disability, skin color, religion, etc.  We train karate, we do not judge.  We don't offer personal opinions in the dojo.
> 
> While I am sure that some students entertain their own personal opinions about a wide variety of things, none of that is anyone's business as long as it is not discussed in the dojo.  We are there to train.  We are a family and we behave as one, but we respect each other as fellow karate students first and foremost.


 
I wonder what they would have said if we had any black students in the class. I bet they would have kept their mouths shut.

I have made it clear to the Sifu since then that I do not wish to train with those two. (See, I should have made it clear: the statements were made after he had to leave class.) He said he did not tolerate that kind of stuff, and he was glad I had spoken up.

Then again, he is going to train with them again this Sunday...so I don't know. Looks like my time spent training with him is over, which is sad because I love Wing Chun with all my heart. It kills me to not be able to go, but I cannot compromise on this. Fortunately I do have a few other options: there is a Wing Chun school in Glens Falls (although I heard they hardly do Chi Sao, which is the primary thing I am interested in doing if I go to a class). Then there are two JKD schools in the area. While JKD is obviously not the same, it DID have its roots in Wing Chun, so maybe that would fill the gap nicely.

In times like this, I fall back on these three words: "Accept what comes." Sometimes it does no good to resist, because you can't change things. In this situation, I can't change how other people feel. All I can do is have faith that if I do the right thing, eventually the other things I want will fall into place.


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## wingchun100 (Jan 27, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Well what did the instructor have to say about it


 
I was just covering that as you asked, actually.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 27, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> On this board, we have discussed transgendered people and LGBT people in martial arts. Now I would like to see what people think about THIS particular issue.
> 
> Last Sunday I was at my Wing Chun class. There were four people there total: the Sifu, two other gentlemen, and myself. For those of you who have not seen my previous profile picture, I am a white boy. However, I have daughters who are part black. You will see why I needed to preface the story with that in a moment.
> 
> ...


While I think you are gonna see a lot of this, in life, you are doing exactly what a student is free to do if the teacher fails to make a rule about potentially offensive banter, in his class.


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## wingchun100 (Jan 27, 2017)

Touch Of Death said:


> While I think you are gonna see a lot of this, in life, you are doing exactly what a student is free to do if the teacher fails to make a rule about potentially offensive banter, in his class.


 
I agree. Light banter about personal things can be okay, but not stuff like this. They probably thought they were safe to say it because we are all white...when, in actuality, we WEREN'T all white because the Sifu himself said he is part Native American!


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## Steve (Jan 27, 2017)

Over 20'years ago, while in the Air Force, a staff sargeant would often go in racist tirades about his sister who was dating a black guy.   I told him to knock that **** off.   He said something about how I'd feel if it was my sister, and I said something about how I would only worry about whether he's a good guy and treats her well.   And asked if his Filipina wife knew he was such a racist *******.   

I don't know any overt racists, but wouldn't put up with it, either.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 27, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> I wonder what they would have said if we had any black students in the class. I bet they would have kept their mouths shut.
> 
> I have made it clear to the Sifu since then that I do not wish to train with those two. (See, I should have made it clear: the statements were made after he had to leave class.) He said he did not tolerate that kind of stuff, and he was glad I had spoken up.
> 
> ...



If I am right about were you were training I am surprised and yet I think I may know what 2 you are talking about.

I have never like racist or racism and since my wife is Chinese I am likely now more sensitive to it than I use to be


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## wingchun100 (Jan 27, 2017)

Steve said:


> Over 20'years ago, while in the Air Force, a staff sargeant would often go in racist tirades about his sister who was dating a black guy.   I told him to knock that **** off.   He said something about how I'd feel if it was my sister, and I said something about how I would only worry about whether he's a good guy and treats her well.   And asked if his Filipina wife knew he was such a racist *******.
> 
> I don't know any overt racists, but wouldn't put up with it, either.


 
Yes, selective racism is...an odd thing.

I also knew a guy who mocked me for having kids with a black woman. I said, "Wait a minute. I know for a fact that you have SLEPT with black women!"

He said, "Yeah, well...that's okay."

So PROCREATING with them was crossing the line.

Gotcha.

Needless to say, I don't talk to that guy anymore.


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## Tez3 (Jan 27, 2017)

We need to stand up and be counted, not to remain silent as silence only helps perpetuate the hatred. Yes, absolutely you must say something, to not remonstrate is an almost tacit agreement that what they said is fine. You may not change their way of thinking but you can certainly make them see it's not acceptable. Today, Holocaust Remembrance Day, shows us what silence and averted eyes leads to.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 27, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> Then again, he is going to train with them again this Sunday...so I don't know. Looks like my time spent training with him is over, which is sad because I love Wing Chun with all my heart.



Listen to your heart.  I understand the situation you are in.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 27, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> Looks like my time spent training with him is over,



He does have a separate school, and I think he charges little or nothing for classes. And I think he may be closer to you than Glens Falls.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 27, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> I agree. Light banter about personal things can be okay, but not stuff like this. They probably thought they were safe to say it because we are all white...when, in actuality, we WEREN'T all white because the Sifu himself said he is part Native American!



People should never make assumptions like that.


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## Ironbear24 (Jan 27, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> I wonder what they would have said if we had any black students in the class. I bet they would have kept their mouths shut.
> 
> I have made it clear to the Sifu since then that I do not wish to train with those two. (See, I should have made it clear: the statements were made after he had to leave class.) He said he did not tolerate that kind of stuff, and he was glad I had spoken up.
> 
> ...



I really don't think you should leave if you love it so much. You are not going for them, you are going for yourself and going for training. It is not fair to you to not do what you enjoy simply because of a couple of ignorant assholes. 

As far as what I would have done. I don't know to be honest, I luckily never had to deal with that in any place I have trained at. The only time anything like this ever came up was when we talked about what type of women we like and I said "I love strong independent black women." 

Then someone brought up that my gf is white and I said "yes, but you see she identifies as a black a woman." It was a stupid silly conversation but that was the only discussion where race was ever brought up.

Normally when I encounter racism it is either directed to me or something a family member or a total stranger says. When it is directed at me I give them a simple up yours hand gesture or tell them to piss off. With family members they are usually saying stuff like "those damn wetbacks living off welfare and we pay their checks." I remind them that to even qualify for that you need employment history, and it only will last so long and you also need a social security number, which none of them have since they are not legal.

I also remind them they themselves are a "wetback" considering we are 2nd and 3rd generation Hispanics who come from Mexico. It is never fun to deal with but sadly it is something very common in our society, and I only see it getting worse and worse because of recent events.

To get back to the point though, I wouldn't quit if I were you. What would make me quit is if the sifu said those things but they are only students, they might not even be there a month or two from now if you think about it, many people quit martial arts for many reasons and rarely does anyone stick around for a long time.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 27, 2017)

Ironbear24 said:


> they might not even be there a month or two from now if you think about it, many people quit martial arts for many reasons and rarely does anyone stick around for a long time.



Incredibly different dynamic than you are used to, the people he is referring to have been there for years and will not be leaving anytime soon

I know the group


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## wingchun100 (Jan 27, 2017)

Ironbear24 said:


> I really don't think you should leave if you love it so much. You are not going for them, you are going for yourself and going for training. It is not fair to you to not do what you enjoy simply because of a couple of ignorant assholes.
> 
> As far as what I would have done. I don't know to be honest, I luckily never had to deal with that in any place I have trained at. The only time anything like this ever came up was when we talked about what type of women we like and I said "I love strong independent black women."
> 
> ...


 
Oh, these guys are in it for the long haul. They aren't really his students; all 3 of them learned Wing Chun from the same guy. As to why only one of them earned the title of Sifu...that I could not explain to you because I haven't been practicing with them for long, so I don't know the full back story yet.


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## wingchun100 (Jan 27, 2017)

Xue Sheng said:


> Incredibly different dynamic than you are used to, the people he is referring to have been there for years and will not be leaving anytime soon
> 
> I know the group


 
You beat me to it!


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 27, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> On this board, we have discussed transgendered people and LGBT people in martial arts. Now I would like to see what people think about THIS particular issue.
> 
> Last Sunday I was at my Wing Chun class. There were four people there total: the Sifu, two other gentlemen, and myself. For those of you who have not seen my previous profile picture, I am a white boy. However, I have daughters who are part black. You will see why I needed to preface the story with that in a moment.
> 
> ...


I would talk to the sifu about the situation. His reaction would determine my response. If he takes some reasonable action, I would stay (always alert to make sure it's not still going on there). If he takes no action or is bothered by me asking him to take action, I'd leave.


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## wingchun100 (Jan 27, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I would talk to the sifu about the situation. His reaction would determine my response. If he takes some reasonable action, I would stay (always alert to make sure it's not still going on there). If he takes no action or is bothered by me asking him to take action, I'd leave.


 
He told me he said something to them, but when I asked what was said, there was no reply...not as of yet anyway.


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## Headhunter (Jan 27, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> He told me he said something to them, but when I asked what was said, there was no reply...not as of yet anyway.


Well not to sound rude but what was said between them isn't your business it's between them and it's better he spoke to them privately away from everyone than publicly in front of the class. If you choose to stay accept that it's been dealt with until you have reason to believe otherwise


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 27, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> He told me he said something to them, but when I asked what was said, there was no reply...not as of yet anyway.


Yeah, there's a difference between, "That's not acceptable here in any way. Are we clear on that?" and "Guys, keep it down while Steve's around, okay?"


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## wingchun100 (Jan 27, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Yeah, there's a difference between, "That's not acceptable here in any way. Are we clear on that?" and "Guys, keep it down while Steve's around, okay?"


 
Right, and that is why I am curious to know what was said. My guess is if it was the "keep it down while Steve is here" option, he won't tell me.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 27, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Well not to sound rude but what was said between them isn't your business it's between them and it's better he spoke to them privately away from everyone than publicly in front of the class. If you choose to stay accept that it's been dealt with until you have reason to believe otherwise


I don't agree with that. He doesn't need to know the whole story, but saying "I talked to them" doesn't clarify anything. What was the point of talking to them? It would be sufficient if the sifu said, "I spoke with them, and they understand that's not acceptable behavior inside the school."


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 27, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I don't agree with that. He doesn't need to know the whole story, but saying "I talked to them" doesn't clarify anything. What was the point of talking to them? It would be sufficient if the sifu said, "I spoke with them, and they understand that's not acceptable behavior inside the school."



It is not in a actual martial arts school, it is free, and it is a group of guys that have been training together for years and the shifu in question, although rather accomplished, is incredibly easy going and rather non-confrontational. However none of this makes what was said right.


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## Steve (Jan 27, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I don't agree with that. He doesn't need to know the whole story, but saying "I talked to them" doesn't clarify anything. What was the point of talking to them? It would be sufficient if the sifu said, "I spoke with them, and they understand that's not acceptable behavior inside the school."


I don't agree.   As satisfying as it might seem, it's really not his business. if he doesn't trust the sifu enough to take him at his word, that's pretty much all you need to know.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 27, 2017)

Xue Sheng said:


> It is not in a actual martial arts school, it is free, and it is a group of guys that have been training together for years and the shifu in question, although rather accomplished, is incredibly easy going and rather non-confrontational. However none of this makes what was said right.


That changes the dynamics, but doesn't change my response. Folks who are non-confrontational sometimes take the easy path out and just let the offender know someone was offended, rather than stating an expectation of different behavior. It's an open group, so I wouldn't expect him to dismiss them, but I'd expect him to show some leadership and reassure others (in this case, Steve) that he has done something significant.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 27, 2017)

Steve said:


> I don't agree.   As satisfying as it might seem, it's really not his business. if he doesn't trust the sifu enough to take him at his word, that's pretty much all you need to know.


It's just me expectation of leadership, Steve. Someone in a leadership position should be taking a stand on this issue, and should want to reassure others that such a stand has been taken.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 27, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> It's just me expectation of leadership, Steve. Someone in a leadership position should be taking a stand on this issue, and should want to reassure others that such a stand has been taken.


Apparently, my Irish ancestry got ahold of me and made my first phrase sound like the Lucky Charms leprechaun.


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## Buka (Jan 27, 2017)

Sometimes seems like human beings have a racist component to their DNA. Maybe it's brought out by country boundaries bordering other countries boundaries. Maybe most of it was taught by the elders to the young, either by word or example. I don't know.

Don't like playing that game. Don't like when it's played on me. I've been racially harassed in the past. Had it happen in the Martial World to me back in the day. Not in a little way either. My students, who used to travel and compete - I felt I had to warn them about potential problems/injustices they might encounter (they did). Maybe I shouldn't have. Maybe I was teaching them not to trust the so and so's.

Any of you suffer racism IN the Martial arts world?


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 27, 2017)

Buka said:


> Sometimes seems like human beings have a racist component to their DNA. Maybe it's brought out by country boundaries bordering other countries boundaries. Maybe most of it was taught by the elders to the young, either by word or example. I don't know.
> 
> Don't like playing that game. Don't like when it's played on me. I've been racially harassed in the past. Had it happen in the Martial World to me back in the day. Not in a little way either. My students, who used to travel and compete - I felt I had to warn them about potential problems/injustices they might encounter (they did). Maybe I shouldn't have. Maybe I was teaching them not to trust the so and so's.
> 
> Any of you suffer racism IN the Martial arts world?


Don't even get me started.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 27, 2017)

Buka said:


> Sometimes seems like human beings have a racist component to their DNA. Maybe it's brought out by country boundaries bordering other countries boundaries. Maybe most of it was taught by the elders to the young, either by word or example. I don't know.
> 
> Don't like playing that game. Don't like when it's played on me. I've been racially harassed in the past. Had it happen in the Martial World to me back in the day. Not in a little way either. My students, who used to travel and compete - I felt I had to warn them about potential problems/injustices they might encounter (they did). Maybe I shouldn't have. Maybe I was teaching them not to trust the so and so's.
> 
> Any of you suffer racism IN the Martial arts world?


I haven't, though I've heard a bit directed at other folks. It's unsurprising that I haven't suffered it. I've lived my entire life in the Southeastern US, and I'm a white guy. We're not the targets in this area.

There likely is an in-born component to racism. Evolutionary psychology has some explanations of the process. As we evolved in isolated groups (not a lot of travel over great distances in a single lifetime), people who didn't look like us were likely to be at least competitors for resources and possibly enemies.


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## Steve (Jan 27, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> It's just me expectation of leadership, Steve. Someone in a leadership position should be taking a stand on this issue, and should want to reassure others that such a stand has been taken.


It really depends.  Saying, "I spoke with them." Should be enough.  

 Simply put, you say, "hey so and so we're saying things that are racist and I'm offended."  I say, "thanks for telling me.  I'll talk to them."  That's the end.   

You come back and say, "hey did you talk to them?"  You're overstepping.   If you don't trust me to follow through, that's a problem, too. Make sense?    Wc100 says, "he told me he said something to them."   To me, that's more than enough.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 27, 2017)

Steve said:


> It really depends.  Saying, "I spoke with them." Should be enough.
> 
> Simply put, you say, "hey so and so we're saying things that are racist and I'm offended."  I say, "thanks for telling me.  I'll talk to them."  That's the end.
> 
> You come back and say, "hey did you talk to them?"  You're overstepping.   If you don't trust me to follow through, that's a problem, too. Make sense?    Wc100 says, "he told me he said something to them."   To me, that's more than enough.


We'll probably just disagree on this one, SteveSteve. In my view, there's a trust break in the group as soon as the racism happens. It's the role of the leader (in this case, the sifu) to address that issue. That means addressing both sides: dealing with the offense in some appropriate manner, and helping to restore the trust with the other side. That latter part is the point of being more forthcoming with SteveWingChun100. I wouldn't expect a follower in that situation to be satisfied with the "I spoke to them about it" answer, unless there's a long history of trust. The history in this case is relatively short.


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## Steve (Jan 27, 2017)

Yeah.  I think there's a trust issue if I'm discussing conversations I had with one person with another.  

Remember, we've heard one side of the story.   I'm a guy who's been training with two other people for a very long time (per xue) and a new guy comes in saying my two long time training partners are racists, and when I say I'll talk to them (or in this case, that I have done so) he questions my integrity,   Huh.

 I think the leader has a duty to act (not to be confused with a Duty to Act) but that means talking to the involved parties, trying to find out what actually happened and setting a clear expectation for what's okay and not okay.   But that doesn't need to be public, and there's no obligation to gossip to the new guy who complained.


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## crazydiamond (Jan 27, 2017)

I cant say I would call some of the instructors racists, but I know some have unfortunate prejudices  and negative feelings.  Muslims are a hot topic. Because of their ties to law enforcement - BLM is also a hot topic.


For me I often have to train with an Irish guy - the dirty drunk bastard.  Its  all been down hill since we let them in to the USA. But I suppose I am grateful he is not a Kiwi.


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## Ironbear24 (Jan 27, 2017)

Buka said:


> Sometimes seems like human beings have a racist component to their DNA. Maybe it's brought out by country boundaries bordering other countries boundaries. Maybe most of it was taught by the elders to the young, either by word or example. I don't know.
> 
> Don't like playing that game. Don't like when it's played on me. I've been racially harassed in the past. Had it happen in the Martial World to me back in the day. Not in a little way either. My students, who used to travel and compete - I felt I had to warn them about potential problems/injustices they might encounter (they did). Maybe I shouldn't have. Maybe I was teaching them not to trust the so and so's.
> 
> Any of you suffer racism IN the Martial arts world?



On rare occasions people said we didn't belong at tournaments because we weren't Asian. Normally racism is never a problem though.


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## Steve (Jan 27, 2017)

There is a common belief that the Brazilians are biased against non-Brazilians in the IBJJF.


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## Ironbear24 (Jan 27, 2017)

Steve said:


> There is a common belief that the Brazilians are biased against non-Brazilians in the IBJJF.



There was a thread somewhere around here about that. The individual who wrote it seemed to tired of that whole scene and said many things like the attitudes and "double gaurd pulling" made him sick of it.


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## wingchun100 (Jan 27, 2017)

Steve said:


> Yeah.  I think there's a trust issue if I'm discussing conversations I had with one person with another.
> 
> Remember, we've heard one side of the story.   I'm a guy who's been training with two other people for a very long time (per xue) and a new guy comes in saying my two long time training partners are racists, and when I say I'll talk to them (or in this case, that I have done so) he questions my integrity,   Huh.
> 
> I think the leader has a duty to act (not to be confused with a Duty to Act) but that means talking to the involved parties, trying to find out what actually happened and setting a clear expectation for what's okay and not okay.   But that doesn't need to be public, and there's no obligation to gossip to the new guy who complained.



I didn't really have to say they are racists. They made that abundantly clear. As for being the new guy, that is irrelevant. Whether I was there five minutes, five months, or five years, one guy clearly said the N word. I mean, I don't know many non-racists who say it with such hatred in their voice like he did.


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## Steve (Jan 27, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> I didn't really have to say they are racists. They made that abundantly clear. As for being the new guy, that is irrelevant. Whether I was there five minutes, five months, or five years, one guy clearly said the N word. I mean, I don't know many non-racists who say it with such hatred in their voice like he did.


okay.   You believe what you want to believe.

Let me just say it this way.  What would I do?   I'm a guy running a small group of folks I've known for years.  A new guy comes to me accusing two of my oldest training partners of being a racist.   I would thank him and tell him that I'll talk to the guys.   I'd then talk to the guys and remind them that if they're racists they need to keep it out of the school.   

If that new guy feels like it's appropriate to follow up, I'll politely tell him that it's really no longer his business.   If he gives me attitude and starts suggesting on a public forum that I'm not acting with integrity, I might have to do something about that new guy.   

That's how I'd handle it as a school owner.    

If I'm the person who witnessed overt racism, I'd first say something to the guys directly.    Then I'd mention it to the school owner.   If he says he talked to them and I don't believe him, I'd look for a new school.    I wouldn't stay at a place where I think the school owner lacks integrity and where the students are overt racists.   

That's how if handle it as a student.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 28, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> On this board, we have discussed transgendered people and LGBT people in martial arts. Now I would like to see what people think about THIS particular issue.
> 
> Last Sunday I was at my Wing Chun class. There were four people there total: the Sifu, two other gentlemen, and myself. For those of you who have not seen my previous profile picture, I am a white boy. However, I have daughters who are part black. You will see why I needed to preface the story with that in a moment.
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing this personal experience.  As a black male, black people are often accused of taking things out of context, that racism doesn't exist, and that we are always playing the race card.  The fact that you had a chance to see and experience this is wonderful in the context that you were able to see the very thing that black people often refer to when we talk about racism.  Sometimes things aren't real until they happen to you, and when they do it sucks.  My nephew is part white and part black and I don't like it when I hear racist things about white people. I didn't like it from the start but now, it is more personal to me because of my nephew.  Before I was offended because it was wrong.  Now I'm offended because it's wrong and personal. 

For me personally I don't know what I would do.  I guess it depends on if a student said it or if the teacher said it.  If the teacher said it then I would leave.  If a student said it, then I may stay.  The reason I say this is because I've grown up with things like this and most of the time there wasn't an option to leave or remove myself from their presence.  Things like this are just "ugly truths of life".  Sometimes I speak against it and sometimes I don't.  When I speak against it, I just ask the person not to speak like that around me. Or I say not all white people are like that.  I guess it just depends on my mood.  Normally I don't get negative feedback when I ask people not to speak like that around me.  I think part of that is a form of respect for me, as they could easily tell me to STFU.   My experience with stuff like this as been crazy, but in almost every situation, when I took the high road and set the example, others either followed or kept the racism to themselves.  But each situation is different so I don't have a one size fits all response to this.

I've known black women and men who hated white people in high school, who grew up to marry someone white.  I've spoken to a son of KKK member who questioned what his father was teaching him, when he noticed that I wasn't the animal that his father claimed black people were.  This world is crazy but sometimes things workout for the better.  Who knows, if they knew about your daughters then maybe they would have a different perspective.  But then again. They may try to make your life miserable..  I just don't have a set answer for how I would have responded.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 28, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> We are there to train. We are a family and we behave as one, but we respect each other as fellow karate students first and foremost.


This is how it is in at my school.   The kung fu family is an adopted family for us and for some of the kids.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 28, 2017)

I would like to point out that sometimes leaving isn't the right option.  Sometimes staying is what makes the difference and is what make things change for the better.  Sometimes you just have to say.  "I'm not the one with the problem, so if anyone leaves, then it'll be them."  If you have to put up with those types of comments then they will have to put up with you correcting them and letting them know they are wrong.   But once again each situation is different.  The only thing that I would recommend to anyone one, is to look at it from multiple perspectives and try to determine if you can make a positive impact by staying.   Then factor if the hardship of standing up for what is right is worth the battles you may have to fight.  If these guys make up the school then leaving may be good.  If they make up a small percentage then staying may help strengthen the good that is already there, and it may cause these guys to change how they see the world.  There's no easy answer, but leaving isn't always a "good answer"

Had I not had a conversation with the son of a KKK member in high school then he would not have gotten the chance to social with me and compare my behavior with what his dad was trying to teach.


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## virginialuther12 (Jan 28, 2017)

Thank you for the post


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## marques (Jan 28, 2017)

In my old school some subjects where simply 'forbidden' in the dojo. During practice, conversation was not allowed, anyway. Just short talk and about training.

I would include racism in the forbidden list, for prevention. So racists could train with no racists... (at least, if they look same origin). Now it is late for that. 

I would be rather touched by xenophobism. And perhaps l would avoid that people. I don't think I would not train with them definitively.


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## Buka (Jan 28, 2017)

I spent the first six years of my life in the projects. And that was pretty awesome back in the fifties, really enjoyable being a little kid. Our closets friends lived upstairs, directly above us, the Robinsons. Ten Robinson kids, just me. I'd be in the playpen with the three youngest ones (twins+) more days than not, folks working and all. For the first few years of my life, I was pretty sure I was black. Because there really wasn't any difference. Not when you're young. My three playpen brothers were black, never thought of them in that way, they were just Davy, Jimmy...and I don't even remember John's name any more. 

Everyone knew the people in the projects that you had to stay away from. You knew just from being a kid and seeing them every day. And your parents told you to stay away from them, firmly. They were all differently nationalities, all different skin colors, all worked different jobs, probably different religious sects, too.  (but we didn't know anything about that back then) They were just the people who were not good. Stay away.

I don't know, there just seemed to be a_ need_ to live by what people did, rather than how they looked, dressed, sounded like, ate or smelt. (Smell is big when you're a little kid).

As for in my dojo, yeah, right. You would have as much of a chance of being racially wrong - as you would have of crapping on the floor. Serious good luck with that plan, mister.

But I have racial issues deep within. Doesn't matter with whom, I have them, as defensive as they are, they are firmly there. They were not taught to me, not even subtly, they were thrust upon me by being the nationality I am in the places I happened to be at the time in Martial arts. Over and over and over again, for years. And from people not remotely associated with each other in business, but from the same place in the world.

Maybe I am a racist. Hmmm.

Intricate subject.


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## Paul_D (Jan 28, 2017)

The only experience I have was at an old club were one my fellow students made no secret of the fact he did not like immigrants.  Getting changed one night before training he made a comment about Polish people and Nazi gas chambers.  He made sure he didn't do it within air shot of our Polish student of course.

I stopped changing into my gi and started getting changed back into my clothes and calmly walked out and went home.  The instructors contacted me after class to ask what had happened, and after I explained they informed said student he was no longer welcome.  

It was not that I was upset as such, everyone is entitled to their opinions, it was more due to the fact a MA club isn't the place for that sort of stuff.  I come to train, not to listen to that sort of stuff.


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## KangTsai (Jan 28, 2017)

I call it closet racism. Judging by the state of the US now, a trace of public racism will earn you an eternity if social mauling. Therefore, this stuff will only be said in private and very likely won't be muttered next to black people. 

(Speaking of, I don't like BLM either. I think their chimpanzee-with-guns attitude and violent shenanigans border on terrorist level.)


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 28, 2017)

KangTsai said:


> I call it closet racism. Judging by the state of the US now, a trace of public racism will earn you an eternity if social mauling. Therefore, this stuff will only be said in private and very likely won't be muttered next to black people.
> 
> (Speaking of, I don't like BLM either. I think their chimpanzee-with-guns attitude and violent shenanigans border on terrorist level.)


Black Lives Matter is not bad.  What they are pointing out is a real concern.  The problem is how they are pointing it out that.  My issue with them isn't so much about them as it is with me.  I'm ole skool, so I believe that protests should be done during the day.  I don't like night protest.  If a group is going to be protesting then it should be during the day.  I also didn't like the how they singled themselves out as if black people are the only ones being mistreated by some law enforcement bad apples.  Other groups of people experience similar issues with the police.

My brother was pulled over on the way home accused of shoplifting in a store that he wasn't in.  I've been pulled over and have been indirectly accused of trying to sell or by drugs late at night while I was on my way home from work.  I used to live in a bad area.  When asked where I lived, the police officer tried to tell me that I didn't live there.  I've had police lie on me as well.  But the reality of this is that it's not only a black thing because other groups of people get similar treatment. Including white people.

Unfortunately the organizers of Black Lives Matters didn't learn about the history of protesting and as a result they framed their concerns in such way that gave people "ammo" and opportunities to question the validity of their concerns.  The real concern got lost in how it was communicated.  So instead of people looking at the problems and concerns people are paying more attention to who is saying it and how they were saying it.   I'm not sure how closely you were following those protest, but there were points where the ole skool civil rights leaders had to come out and help provide some guidance on what they must not do.  Some of the same people who protested for civil rights were even disrespected by a small group of people who were in the crowd.    

Things like this is why it's important to learn history. So that we can better understand what we should do and what we shouldn't do.   

People with deep racist beliefs are different from those who are not informed.  There is a difference saying something racially offensive out of ignorance vs saying something racially offensive out of that deep seeded hate where one group is viewed as below another group.  I'm not just theorizing on this.  I've felt the sting of both and the one that was said out of hate made me feel, unaccepted in my own city, it was the first time that I ever felt alone as a human.  The one that was said out of ignorance made me pitty the person who was saying it, because they were misguided.  You will know without a doubt when someone speaks with hate, because you'll feel the hate.


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## donald1 (Jan 28, 2017)

Its okay to dislike something. Personally I prefer to say ALL lives matter.

These people should know however, offensive terms are better off unsaid. They should know better than that. Thats  a shameful act of disrespect and ignorance on their behalf.

I hope you can find a good school that respects those things!


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## Steve (Jan 28, 2017)

KangTsai said:


> I call it closet racism. Judging by the state of the US now, a trace of public racism will earn you an eternity if social mauling. Therefore, this stuff will only be said in private and very likely won't be muttered next to black people.
> 
> (Speaking of, I don't like BLM either. I think their chimpanzee-with-guns attitude and violent shenanigans border on terrorist level.)


at risk of being too political, I'm concerned that the trump campaign has emboldened the closet racists in our country, if that makes sense.   I don't think you can just change a person's beliefs, but we can exert social and cultural pressure to marginalize destructive beliefs.   In other words, you can't force a racist to change his belief, but you can force a racist to change his behavior.   

So, when I hear closet racist, I think great.   Keep it in the closet.   But that's not the trajectory we are on.


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## Ironbear24 (Jan 28, 2017)

Buka said:


> I spent the first six years of my life in the projects. And that was pretty awesome back in the fifties, really enjoyable being a little kid. Our closets friends lived upstairs, directly above us, the Robinsons. Ten Robinson kids, just me. I'd be in the playpen with the three youngest ones (twins+) more days than not, folks working and all. For the first few years of my life, I was pretty sure I was black. Because there really wasn't any difference. Not when you're young. My three playpen brothers were black, never thought of them in that way, they were just Davy, Jimmy...and I don't even remember John's name any more.
> 
> Everyone knew the people in the projects that you had to stay away from. You knew just from being a kid and seeing them every day. And your parents told you to stay away from them, firmly. They were all differently nationalities, all different skin colors, all worked different jobs, probably different religious sects, too.  (but we didn't know anything about that back then) They were just the people who were not good. Stay away.
> 
> ...



I marked your post as funny because it made me laugh and smile. I grew up in my early child very similar and loved in the projects in Oxnard California. Many of us would go in and out of eachothers homes often because so many of us were friends. It was "the hood" and had pretty bad crime at times but I think that was one of the reasons everyone was so tight and close to each other. For safety reasons.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 28, 2017)

Steve said:


> So, when I hear closet racist, I think great. Keep it in the closet. But that's not the trajectory we are on.


Unfortunately you are correct.  Many people feel that it's ok to say things like that in the open, but they forget that racism is a 2 way street.  There are closet racist on both sides. The harm that one can do to one group, can be returned in kind by the group.  If one racist's group, say whites hate blacks, feel that they can be rude and disrespectful then another group say black hate whites will feel they can return the hate.  And that's just one group, imagine all of the hate groups going at each other.  The conversation soon becomes less about living together in society and more about one group vs another. Or multiple groups vs one group.   The combinations are vast and a lot of good people are going to feel the pain that comes from it. 

For me personally I have already been through the pain and my parents have had a more intense version of what I experienced.  Hopefully after this last round of nonsense people will finally come to understand that it's just not worth it.  There are no winners when the country turns on itself.


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## Ironbear24 (Jan 28, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> Unfortunately you are correct.  Many people feel that it's ok to say things like that in the open, but they forget that racism is a 2 way street.  There are closet racist on both sides. The harm that one can do to one group, can be returned in kind by the group.  If one racist's group, say whites hate blacks, feel that they can be rude and disrespectful then another group say black hate whites will feel they can return the hate.  And that's just one group, imagine all of the hate groups going at each other.  The conversation soon becomes less about living together in society and more about one group vs another. Or multiple groups vs one group.   The combinations are vast and a lot of good people are going to feel the pain that comes from it.
> 
> For me personally I have already been through the pain and my parents have had a more intense version of what I experienced.  Hopefully after this last round of nonsense people will finally come to understand that it's just not worth it.  There are no winners when the country turns on itself.



As far as I'm concerned there is only one race and that is the human race. Race doesn't really exist outside of social constructs and labels anyway.


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## JP3 (Jan 28, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> I stopped doing Chi Sao immediately and told them I did not appreciate that kind of talk, and it was very offensive to me. They just looked at me funny, then continued doing their practice. Then it dawned on me: "Wow...only 4 people here, and 50% of them said offensive things!"
> 
> Personally, I don't feel like training with these gentlemen anymore. My love of my daughters exceeds my love of Wing Chun training, and it is my belief that by hanging out with them, they will probably think I am okay with it after all."



As a white boy myself, who has always been brought up by mom to think that racism is just plain stupid, I have to agree completely with what you did in class. Immediate reaction, somewhat sharp, but courteous, and definitely to the point.

   Where we'd disagree is where you are saying that you may not go back to class there, just because those 2 guys may be there.  Questions and discussions are a battle of a different type, and many people choose to not engage.  For me... and this is just me and not necessarily you... You might approach the one who indicated his negativity about BLM and simply ask him why he said what he said. I'd wager that, if called out on it, but without challenge in tone or posture, that person will probably display shame/guilt.  I agree with above, this comes from ignorance.

  If they don't, and you were to explain your own strong basis for dislike such talk (daughters is about the biggest one I can conceive of), then you are very probably experiencing the hate spoken above, not ignorance.

   I further agree that, if you choose to go this way, and you feel a person's hate now being directed your way, address it to your sifu and if it is not immediately squashed, head elsewhere for training.


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## drop bear (Jan 28, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> Black Lives Matter is not bad.  What they are pointing out is a real concern.  The problem is how they are pointing it out that.  My issue with them isn't so much about them as it is with me.  I'm ole skool, so I believe that protests should be done during the day.  I don't like night protest.  If a group is going to be protesting then it should be during the day.  I also didn't like the how they singled themselves out as if black people are the only ones being mistreated by some law enforcement bad apples.  Other groups of people experience similar issues with the police.
> 
> My brother was pulled over on the way home accused of shoplifting in a store that he wasn't in.  I've been pulled over and have been indirectly accused of trying to sell or by drugs late at night while I was on my way home from work.  I used to live in a bad area.  When asked where I lived, the police officer tried to tell me that I didn't live there.  I've had police lie on me as well.  But the reality of this is that it's not only a black thing because other groups of people get similar treatment. Including white people.
> 
> ...



Yeah culturally we have a history of saying deeply offensive things.  But there isn't the racial hatred behind it.  We are just deeply offensive.

We are a country that uses the C word as a compliment.

I think that works better as having to be constantly on guard due to someone elses culture does not create trust bonds.

There is a case where an Australian fighter was banned from the UFC for making racist remarks.

Tyler manowara.

'TUF Nations' fighter Tyler Manawaroa won't get UFC contract due to racist Instagram post


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## JP3 (Jan 28, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Yeah culturally we have a history of saying deeply offensive things.  But there isn't the racial hatred behind it.  We are just deeply offensive.
> 
> We are a country that uses the C word as a compliment.
> 
> ...



OK, I clicked that one funny. Drop, your location isn't showing, so I assume you're Aussie?

Almost Completely off topic.... Comedian Carl Barron from Australia has a short bit where he's talking about his friend he used to do roofing with, and I think he refers to himas a "C" about 3 times int he story but it's obvious they're friends, and quite tight.

But.... Whew! I just think about dropping a C on a girl/lady/woman here in the states and my hair starts to smoke. It would NOT be a pleasant experience.


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## drop bear (Jan 28, 2017)

JP3 said:


> OK, I clicked that one funny. Drop, your location isn't showing, so I assume you're Aussie?
> 
> Almost Completely off topic.... Comedian Carl Barron from Australia has a short bit where he's talking about his friend he used to do roofing with, and I think he refers to himas a "C" about 3 times int he story but it's obvious they're friends, and quite tight.
> 
> But.... Whew! I just think about dropping a C on a girl/lady/woman here in the states and my hair starts to smoke. It would NOT be a pleasant experience.



When i used to bounce i would occasionally upset the odd American who would then try to curse at me. And while i could tell they were really trying it was like "mate not even in the same league"


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## wingchun100 (Jan 28, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> I would like to point out that sometimes leaving isn't the right option.  Sometimes staying is what makes the difference and is what make things change for the better.  Sometimes you just have to say.  "I'm not the one with the problem, so if anyone leaves, then it'll be them."  If you have to put up with those types of comments then they will have to put up with you correcting them and letting them know they are wrong.   But once again each situation is different.  The only thing that I would recommend to anyone one, is to look at it from multiple perspectives and try to determine if you can make a positive impact by staying.   Then factor if the hardship of standing up for what is right is worth the battles you may have to fight.  If these guys make up the school then leaving may be good.  If they make up a small percentage then staying may help strengthen the good that is already there, and it may cause these guys to change how they see the world.  There's no easy answer, but leaving isn't always a "good answer"
> 
> Had I not had a conversation with the son of a KKK member in high school then he would not have gotten the chance to social with me and compare my behavior with what his dad was trying to teach.



This isn't really a school. This is/was an informal gathering of the one that I consider to be my Sifu, and two of his old Wing Chun brothers who both learned from the same person. So the Sifu and these other two are at the same "level," so to speak. As for why he got appointed Sifu and the others did not, I have no idea. Anyway, my point is there were only 4 of us there. Therefore, that means 50% of the people present said racist things.


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## wingchun100 (Jan 28, 2017)

Steve said:


> okay.   You believe what you want to believe.
> 
> Let me just say it this way.  What would I do?   I'm a guy running a small group of folks I've known for years.  A new guy comes to me accusing two of my oldest training partners of being a racist.   I would thank him and tell him that I'll talk to the guys.   I'd then talk to the guys and remind them that if they're racists they need to keep it out of the school.
> 
> ...



I never suggested anything about him not acting with integrity. I just said he told me about talking to them. I asked what they said, and his answer was not clear. That's all. You want to read into it that I said he wasn't acting with integrity...well, I don't know what to tell you.

As for looking for another place to train, I already have them. First of all, the same Sifu teaches a Wednesday night class where, to this point, NO ONE has spewed any racist comments. Second, there is one other Wing Chun school (from the same lineage) and several JKD schools in the area.


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## Steve (Jan 28, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> I never suggested anything about him not acting with integrity. I just said he told me about talking to them. I asked what they said, and his answer was not clear. That's all. You want to read into it that I said he wasn't acting with integrity...well, I don't know what to tell you.
> 
> As for looking for another place to train, I already have them. First of all, the same Sifu teaches a Wednesday night class where, to this point, NO ONE has spewed any racist comments. Second, there is one other Wing Chun school (from the same lineage) and several JKD schools in the area.


ugh.   I just shared what I would do as the school owner in this situation and as the student


Honestly, up until you posted that you asked him if he said anything and then stated that you weren't satisfied with his answer, I was with you.   I agree, up to that point, even to needing to leave the school.   

You said


wingchun100 said:


> He told me he said something to them, but when I asked what was said, there was no reply...not as of yet anyway.


i think you crossed the line going back and pushing the issue with your sifu.   Don't get me wrong.   That's your prerogative.  i think at best, it's none of your business at that point what he said, and at worst, it could be construed as questioning his integrity,   I mean, really.   "When I asked him what was said, there was no reply.... not as of yet anyway."  Lol. Come on.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 28, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> This isn't really a school. This is/was an informal gathering of the one that I consider to be my Sifu, and two of his old Wing Chun brothers who both learned from the same person. So the Sifu and these other two are at the same "level," so to speak. As for why he got appointed Sifu and the others did not, I have no idea. Anyway, my point is there were only 4 of us there. Therefore, that means 50% of the people present said racist things.


Oh.  I was thinking that it was a school and that day only 4 people showed up.  But you are saying that there is only 4 total in your group?


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## JP3 (Jan 29, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> This isn't really a school. This is/was an informal gathering of the one that I consider to be my Sifu, and two of his old Wing Chun brothers who both learned from the same person. So the Sifu and these other two are at the same "level," so to speak. As for why he got appointed Sifu and the others did not, I have no idea. Anyway, my point is there were only 4 of us there. Therefore, that means 50% of the people present said racist things.



So, if you left, then 75% of the people there would have said racist things. And if the designated sifu there went to the bathroom, then 100% of the people there would have said racist things.

I'm not understanding the relevance of the percentage of people to you.  To me, it's the fact that it happened that should cause the distress, not the numbers, though I grant you, majority-minority opinions do make a big impact, but that wasn't the... tenor of your original post... it didn't strike me that way, anyway. It was the fact that it happened at all in an environment you had previously considered a ... safe zone from such things, for lack of a better term.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 29, 2017)

JP3 said:


> So, if you left, then 75% of the people there would have said racist things. And if the designated sifu there went to the bathroom, then 100% of the people there would have said racist things.
> 
> I'm not understanding the relevance of the percentage of people to you.  To me, it's the fact that it happened that should cause the distress, not the numbers, though I grant you, majority-minority opinions do make a big impact, but that wasn't the... tenor of your original post... it didn't strike me that way, anyway. It was the fact that it happened at all in an environment you had previously considered a ... safe zone from such things, for lack of a better term.


It has nothing to do with the point of your post, but there's a nit I have to pick. If he left the room, 66.7% of the people left would have said racist things.

Okay, I feel better now.


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## JP3 (Jan 29, 2017)

In my defense, I'm presently struggling with a serious head cold, feel like I'm breathing through a wet cloth eyes are itchy and nose hurts and thoughts are somewhat... tattered is a good description. On top of that I'm hungry, which I suppose may be a good sign that the dnd is in sight.

Yes, 1 out of 3 is 33 & 1/3... remainder is 66 & 2/3.... ack.


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## wingchun100 (Jan 29, 2017)

JP3 said:


> So, if you left, then 75% of the people there would have said racist things. And if the designated sifu there went to the bathroom, then 100% of the people there would have said racist things.
> 
> I'm not understanding the relevance of the percentage of people to you.  To me, it's the fact that it happened that should cause the distress, not the numbers, though I grant you, majority-minority opinions do make a big impact, but that wasn't the... tenor of your original post... it didn't strike me that way, anyway. It was the fact that it happened at all in an environment you had previously considered a ... safe zone from such things, for lack of a better term.



The percentage IS relevant in that if it were a class of 20 people and only 2 did that, the odds would be more in my favor that more people would be against that stuff rather than of the same mindset. In this situation, 2 were for it...1 was apparently neutral...and 1 was against it.


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## Juany118 (Jan 29, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> We need to stand up and be counted, not to remain silent as silence only helps perpetuate the hatred. Yes, absolutely you must say something, to not remonstrate is an almost tacit agreement that what they said is fine. You may not change their way of thinking but you can certainly make them see it's not acceptable. Today, Holocaust Remembrance Day, shows us what silence and averted eyes leads to.
> 
> 
> View attachment 20355


 If there was a <3 emote I would have hit it.  Racism is a cancer.


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## Hyoho (Jan 29, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> On this board, we have discussed transgendered people and LGBT people in martial arts. Now I would like to see what people think about THIS particular issue.
> 
> Last Sunday I was at my Wing Chun class. There were four people there total: the Sifu, two other gentlemen, and myself. For those of you who have not seen my previous profile picture, I am a white boy. However, I have daughters who are part black. You will see why I needed to preface the story with that in a moment.
> 
> ...


Well Chinese art seem to differ to Japanese. I my Dojo "nobody" talks unless it pertains to what we are practicing. A bit more "martial" would go a long way.
To my way of thinking black people are some of the best athletes and musicians in the world.


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## drop bear (Jan 29, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> Well Chinese art seem to differ to Japanese. I my Dojo "nobody" talks unless it pertains to what we are practicing. A bit more "martial" would go a long way.
> To my way of thinking black people are some of the best athletes and musicians in the world.



And you really wont get the irony of that. Will you?


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## JP3 (Jan 30, 2017)

drop bear said:


> And you really wont get the irony of that. Will you?



Most likely... no.


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## wingchun100 (Jan 31, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> Well Chinese art seem to differ to Japanese. I my Dojo "nobody" talks unless it pertains to what we are practicing. A bit more "martial" would go a long way.
> To my way of thinking black people are some of the best athletes and musicians in the world.


 
Is that part supposed to be irony or sarcasm?


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## drop bear (Jan 31, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> Is that part supposed to be irony or sarcasm?



I just think he didn't really get what he said there. Part of the racism conversation is understanding that different cultures have different concepts as to what is racist. Based on their own histories.


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## Steve (Jan 31, 2017)

Something my 8 year old asked me.   Why is it racist to say something in English using an exaggerated Chinese accent, but not racist to say something in English using an exaggerated French or Norwegian  accent?


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## wingchun100 (Jan 31, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Listen to your heart.  I understand the situation you are in.



I am glad to read this from you. 

I am sure no one was wondering, but I did find a way around all of this. The same Sifu holds a class on Wednesday nights that the other two do NOT attend. Also, there is one other Wing Chun school in the area, as well as a couple different JKD schools. Since I have been doing Wing Chun since 1995, I have a good foundation if I choose to go the JKD way instead.


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## Hyoho (Feb 2, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> Is that part supposed to be irony or sarcasm?


Neither. What kind of class are you attending where people chat in the corner? Is this a social gathering. Some schools I attend will hit the roof if so much as look at he clock. You are supposed to leave everything that does not pertain to training "outside".


----------



## Touch Of Death (Feb 2, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> Well Chinese art seem to differ to Japanese. I my Dojo "nobody" talks unless it pertains to what we are practicing. A bit more "martial" would go a long way.
> To my way of thinking black people are some of the best athletes and musicians in the world.


That may be true, but Africa is so diverse, that for every bronze god, their is an equally clumsy oaf, that can't get through a doorway without hurting themselves.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Feb 2, 2017)

I think we have been going about this all wrong. It really should be, TALL LIVES MATTER.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Feb 2, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> Neither. What kind of class are you attending where people chat in the corner? Is this a social gathering. Some schools I attend will hit the roof if so much as look at he clock. You are supposed to leave everything that does not pertain to training "outside".


That is one way of training. Not all instructors or schools take that approach. The mats were for training when I was coming up through the ranks, but a fair amount of friendly chatting happened off-mats between classes.


----------



## Buka (Feb 2, 2017)

Steve said:


> Something my 8 year old asked me.   Why is it racist to say something in English using an exaggerated Chinese accent, but not racist to say something in English using an exaggerated French or Norwegian  accent?



Good question. What did you tell her, Steve?


----------



## Tez3 (Feb 2, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> As a black male, black people are often accused of taking things out of context, that racism doesn't exist, and that we are always playing the race card.


I've had similar said to me about anti-Semitism, that we are too sensitive, can't we take a joke and why do we see it everywhere. The race card is also one that comes up funnily enough.



KangTsai said:


> (Speaking of, I don't like BLM either. I think their chimpanzee-with-guns attitude and violent shenanigans border on terrorist level.)



Not sure you know what the BLM is, if you don't come from the USA it's very hard to know from the little news we get about it.


----------



## wingchun100 (Feb 2, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> Neither. What kind of class are you attending where people chat in the corner? Is this a social gathering. Some schools I attend will hit the roof if so much as look at he clock. You are supposed to leave everything that does not pertain to training "outside".


 
The more important question is: why don't you realize that what you said was incredibly stereotypical, and could be considered insensitive/offensive?


----------



## Ironbear24 (Feb 2, 2017)

Touch Of Death said:


> That may be true, but Africa is so diverse, that for every bronze god, their is an equally clumsy oaf, that can't get through a doorway without hurting themselves.



Hm, sort of like everyone else on planet Earth.


----------



## Balrog (Feb 2, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> On this board, we have discussed transgendered people and LGBT people in martial arts. Now I would like to see what people think about THIS particular issue.
> 
> Last Sunday I was at my Wing Chun class. There were four people there total: the Sifu, two other gentlemen, and myself. For those of you who have not seen my previous profile picture, I am a white boy. However, I have daughters who are part black. You will see why I needed to preface the story with that in a moment.
> 
> ...


If you heard it, that means the teacher heard it, too.  I hope he took some action (haven't read the entire thread yet).

Since I am the chief instructor in my school, I would take immediate action, which I have had to do exactly once in my career.

There would be an immediate closed door session and the individual(s) involved would be educated to a basic fact:  skin color is meaningless.  In my school, the only color that matters is the belt you are wearing, period.  If you have an issue with that, go down the street and train at Joe's Karate and Pizza.  And if I hear of you expressing that opinion in my school one more time, you WILL go down the street to Joe's because you won't be training here any more.  

We're all human.  We all want the best for our families.  We all bleed red when we are injured.  I personally am sick and frickin' tired of people making an issue of skin color, in any direction.  It's a dumbshit thing to do, whether it's whites talking about blacks, blacks talking about whites, or greens talking about blues.

Pardon my French.  I'll get off my soapbox now.


----------



## wingchun100 (Feb 2, 2017)

Balrog said:


> If you heard it, that means the teacher heard it, too.  I hope he took some action (haven't read the entire thread yet).
> 
> Since I am the chief instructor in my school, I would take immediate action, which I have had to do exactly once in my career.
> 
> ...


 
This group is a little different than your average school. There were 3 gentlemen there other than me. One of them is the guy I call "Sifu." The other two guys learned from the same teacher as him, so they are not really his students; they are more like his brothers. Also, this is not an official class; it was a gathering on a college campus.

I do agree with what you say though. In fact, I may start a different message on this thread with an example I had from when I was younger, something that made me realize the truth about people.


----------



## Ironbear24 (Feb 2, 2017)

Many people don't understand racism, they know how it is on paper but fail to see it in when it happens in real life. I was volunteered to help someone move yesterday, yeah someone else (my gf) basically told her friends I will help them move.

So I am told they only have a couple of things that are heavy they need help with, which was a lie. They had so much crap that what was expected to take a couple hours took the entire day. So near the end of the move when we are almost done I am shown a funny picture of Ivanka trump in a dress that looks it's made of tin foil and in the next panel there is a burrito wrapped in tin foil. The picture had a caption of who wore it better?

So we laughed about it and my gf said it's funny because she hates Mexicans. I said no, I don't think she does. Then her friend's husband chimed and said "I myself am beginning to start hating Mexicans because where I work they tend to be the stupidest ones." He then went on to imitate them in a very stereotyped Mexican accent and I'm sitting here like. "Oh you motherfucker. Here I am giving my entire day to help you move your **** into your apartment and you go and do that? Hell no." I said nothing, I didn't want to make things more akward then they were already made. I told my gf that he really pissed me off with that comment and she acted completely oblivious about it.

I then explained to her why that was offensive and she just didn't get it. She kept saying like "you need to learn to put things behind you." "You can't get angry at everyone because they don't agree with you." I said "you are belittling this. He didn't say something about something trivial like my clothing or my favorite type of my music. No he insulted my ethnic background! She then said "he didn't mean it that way."

I love when people use that phrase. "I don't mean it that way." Well gee how the hell did you mean it then? Because from where I am standing it sounds like you very well meant what you said. We got invited to eat dinner with them a few days from now and I turned it down.

She is upset but I made it very clear that I am tired of having to deal with her stupid friends who always say stupid things. It's bad enough her family isn't all that amazing either, and they are people are already have to tolerate on holidays.

And I am very tired of white people (usually the person who said it, or related to the person who did it.) telling me what is and what isn't racism. I been dealing with racism since I was a little kid thank you very much so I think I know racism when I experience it. I am not some dumbass who goes around mistaking everything that happens to me as something else. I don't need them to hold my hand and tell me what is and what isn't when I am capable of doing it on my own.

Sorry if this seemed unrelated as it is about racism in martial arts, but I felt the direction that the thread has taken made it more relevant. If I was wrong I again apologize.


----------



## Buka (Feb 2, 2017)

What about ethnic jokes?  Are they just racist and wrong? Or does it depend on context and audience?

Obviously no place for them in a dojo. But what about anywhere else?


----------



## Touch Of Death (Feb 2, 2017)

Ironbear24 said:


> Hm, sort of like everyone else on planet Earth.


Not true. Africa is the most diverse place in the whole wide world. No foolin'.


----------



## wingchun100 (Feb 2, 2017)

Ironbear24 said:


> Many people don't understand racism, they know how it is on paper but fail to see it in when it happens in real life. I was volunteered to help someone move yesterday, yeah someone else (my gf) basically told her friends I will help them move.
> 
> So I am told they only have a couple of things that are heavy they need help with, which was a lie. They had so much crap that what was expected to take a couple hours took the entire day. So near the end of the move when we are almost done I am shown a funny picture of Ivanka trump in a dress that looks it's made of tin foil and in the next panel there is a burrito wrapped in tin foil. The picture had a caption of who wore it better?
> 
> ...


 


Funny you should mention that. Right after the one character said the N word, he quickly added, "I'm not racist or anything!"

Right. I guess you were quoting a Dr. Dre song.


----------



## Ironbear24 (Feb 2, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> Funny you should mention that. Right after the one character said the N word, he quickly added, "I'm not racist or anything!"
> 
> Right. I guess you were quoting a Dr. Dre song.



Man out here I hear people say "now I'm not racist or anything but damn (Nwords) really annoy me." 

And 

I heard this next one the internet so it ain't exactly the same. "We aren't racist, we even had a dirty rotten Jew show up to our rally."


----------



## Steve (Feb 2, 2017)

I told her that it was a good question, and then changed the subject.  J

ust kidding.  We talked about it for a bit, and I asked more questions than I answered.  Ultimately, after a brief discussion, we decided that it boils down to a few things: 

1:  it's a gray area.  When you talk about race vs ethnicity vs culture, lines blur.  There is a difference between being African, Asian or European, and being Japanese, French or Norwegian, but it really isn't all that important when it comes to be a jerk. 

2:  Ultimately, it's about how the person you're talking to feels about what you're saying and how you say it.  If there is a kid from Norway or France or China and you make fun of their accent to them, would they feel bad?  If so, it's probably at least being mean.  And if you think you're better than that kid because of where he's from, you're being mean and also being bigoted.

Something like that. 

When she's older, we can start talking about comedy, social satire and whether or when it's okay to challenge our social/racial/cultural conventions.


----------



## wingchun100 (Feb 2, 2017)

This is the story I wanted to discuss, which I mention briefly when I quoted Balrog above.

When I was growing up, I had to deal with my stepfather. He was an ******* in many ways, one of them being the racist things he would say. I hate to admit this, but he was in my life during the formative years, so for a while he had an influence on how I looked at other people. Thanks for exposing me to this tool, ma! I am forever in your debt for that!

Anyway, that all changed when I was in my early teens. I was not a popular kid in school, and most of the kids who mocked me were the popular kids. You got it: white kids. So I was alone a lot, and very few people showed any kindness toward me.

In our high school, we had lockers that were down in the lower level, near the cafeteria. It was the kind of location where you would expect to find Freddy Krueger hanging out in the boiler room at the other end of the hall. I decided to pick a locker in this hallway for one simple reason: NO ONE ELSE DID. Therefore I would be alone, with no worries about being picked on by some alpha male jock prick and his neanderthal cronies.

So one day I am sitting at my locker between classes, reading a book and just waiting for next period to start. This black kid comes along. I can still remember how he looked and what he wore: a little bit taller than me...super skinny...baseball cap...BIG glasses...baggy (but not sagging) jeans. I did not look up at him because in my experience, eye contact was an invitation to a bullying session. It would often start out with, "What the F are YOU looking at?"

He started to open his locker. I keep on reading.

He says, "Hey, how's it going?"

I look up. Sure enough, he is looking at me. I mumble "hey" or something to that effect. The interaction has started out friendly enough, but again, basing all of this on past experience, it could be a ruse to get me to let my guard down. He is looking for me to say, "Hi, my name is Steve, and I write poetry!" So he can then go to his friends and mock me for being a sensitive poetry-writing wimp!

He continues. "I've seen you down here before. You're alone a lot, aren't you?"

I find this odd for a couple reasons. First of all, I don't ever remember seeing him; I always seemed to be at my locker alone. Second, he saw me...and remembered me? This was confusing, as I considered myself to be largely forgettable.

He is still rooting through his locker, and I realized I haven't answered his question yet.

So I said, "Yeah, I am."

"You don't have a lot of friends, huh?" he asks.

If I answer this honestly, will that be when the assault begins? I don't know. I decide to be honest anyway.

"No, not really."

The bell goes off. Time to head to class! I stand up, shove the book I was reading into my bookbag, and get ready to leave. Skinny Guy comes over to me as I am shrugging my bookbag on to my shoulders.

To my surprise, he has his hand out.

"Sean," he says.

I reach out and shake his hand, telling him my name. He says it is nice to meet me, and that he will see me around. I stand there in the hallway for a moment, alone and stunned and silent. Slowly but surely, a smile creeps over my face. Of course, for me a smile means there is the slightest hint of upturn at the corners of my mouth, but it is a smile nevertheless. It dawns on me that in less than twenty words, Sean the Black Kid has laid to waste all the ******** that my stepfather spews at home. In less than twenty words, he showed me more kindness than any twenty white kids.

And for those of you who may be wondering...no, I never saw him again, but I'm still grateful.

Thanks, Sean.


----------



## Ironbear24 (Feb 2, 2017)

It's really incredible what the smallest act of kindness can do for someone.


----------



## wingchun100 (Feb 2, 2017)

Ironbear24 said:


> It's really incredible what the smallest act of kindness can do for someone.


 
That was when I was 14.

I'm 40 now.

The memory is as clear as if it were yesterday.

As much as we can ALL use that kind of kindness, it has an even more profound effect on people like me, who grew up thinking acts of kindness were as rare as certain kinds of diamonds.


----------



## Buka (Feb 2, 2017)

Steve said:


> I told her that it was a good question, and then changed the subject.  J
> 
> ust kidding.  We talked about it for a bit, and I asked more questions than I answered.  Ultimately, after a brief discussion, we decided that it boils down to a few things:
> 
> ...



She's got a great dad.


----------



## drop bear (Feb 2, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> The more important question is: why don't you realize that what you said was incredibly stereotypical, and could be considered insensitive/offensive?



Yeah but he is not from an American culture. Why should he have an in depth knowledge of what upsets them.  Or even care.  

There is this idea that America is the cultural benchmark for what is offensive and what isn't.


----------



## Steve (Feb 2, 2017)

Buka said:


> She's got a great dad.


Lol...  no such thing.  We are all lucky that parenting is pass/fail.  Fortunately their mom/my wife is a saint and a genius.   Takes the pressure off me.   

As an aside, that's my secret to a long and happy marriage.   Marry someone smarter than you.


----------



## Hyoho (Feb 3, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> The more important question is: why don't you realize that what you said was incredibly stereotypical, and could be considered insensitive/offensive?



Did I miss something? I would kick them out. Race distinction has no place in Martial Arts. Some of the best I have met are colored. One from St Kitts won World Karate Championships twice. A true natural like many others of his race.


----------



## Buka (Feb 3, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> This is the story I wanted to discuss, which I mention briefly when I quoted Balrog above.
> 
> When I was growing up, I had to deal with my stepfather. He was an ******* in many ways, one of them being the racist things he would say. I hate to admit this, but he was in my life during the formative years, so for a while he had an influence on how I looked at other people. Thanks for exposing me to this tool, ma! I am forever in your debt for that!
> 
> ...



So recognizable to me. I hope as the years go forward many of us are like Sean. I have always tried to be, and I always will.

What an absolutely wonderful post. Thanks, much, bro.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Feb 3, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> This is the story I wanted to discuss, which I mention briefly when I quoted Balrog above.
> 
> When I was growing up, I had to deal with my stepfather. He was an ******* in many ways, one of them being the racist things he would say. I hate to admit this, but he was in my life during the formative years, so for a while he had an influence on how I looked at other people. Thanks for exposing me to this tool, ma! I am forever in your debt for that!
> 
> ...


I grew up around a lot of racists (KKK member next door, for starters), though fortunately none in the house. There was a deep racial divide at my Jr. High and High schools, but like you I wasn't "in" (and was very shy). So I found it easier to cross that divide and get to know some of the black kids than to deal with the popular kids (many of whom were pretty nice, too, once I got past the bullies). I had a couple of black (color matters in this case) friends in drama class. When they saw me in the halls, they'd do a stereotypical "white guy voice" and call out, "Get out of the hall, n*****!" I'd do my best stereotypical "black guy from the hood voice" and say back, "You betta shut up, honky! I'll cut you!" Happened at least once a week. We never got tired of it. I think it was our way of fighting the stereotypes. Oddly, it never seemed to bother anyone else.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Feb 3, 2017)

Buka said:


> What about ethnic jokes?  Are they just racist and wrong? Or does it depend on context and audience?
> 
> Obviously no place for them in a dojo. But what about anywhere else?


My thought on them has always been this: If they are using a stereotype to make fun of people, they are usually offensive. If they are making fun of the stereotype, itself, they are usually okay. Of course, there's some grey area, and context matters.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Feb 3, 2017)

Ironbear24 said:


> Many people don't understand racism, they know how it is on paper but fail to see it in when it happens in real life. I was volunteered to help someone move yesterday, yeah someone else (my gf) basically told her friends I will help them move.
> 
> So I am told they only have a couple of things that are heavy they need help with, which was a lie. They had so much crap that what was expected to take a couple hours took the entire day. So near the end of the move when we are almost done I am shown a funny picture of Ivanka trump in a dress that looks it's made of tin foil and in the next panel there is a burrito wrapped in tin foil. The picture had a caption of who wore it better?
> 
> ...


By the way, pandas are not Mexican.


----------



## thanson02 (Feb 3, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> On this board, we have discussed transgendered people and LGBT people in martial arts. Now I would like to see what people think about THIS particular issue.
> 
> Last Sunday I was at my Wing Chun class. There were four people there total: the Sifu, two other gentlemen, and myself. For those of you who have not seen my previous profile picture, I am a white boy. However, I have daughters who are part black. You will see why I needed to preface the story with that in a moment.
> 
> ...



With that blatant of a blow off, I would have walked..........

I also would have made a review on Yelp and made it clear why I gave it such a low rating.


----------



## wingchun100 (Feb 3, 2017)

thanson02 said:


> With that blatant of a blow off, I would have walked..........
> 
> I also would have made a review on Yelp and made it clear why I gave it such a low rating.


 
There is no school on Yelp to give a rating of. This is an informal gathering that these fellas do on Sundays...which I do NOT do anymore now.


----------



## wingchun100 (Feb 3, 2017)

Buka said:


> So recognizable to me. I hope as the years go forward many of us are like Sean. I have always tried to be, and I always will.
> 
> What an absolutely wonderful post. Thanks, much, bro.


 
Thanks. I am not ashamed to admit I was in tears by the time I finished typing it because when I think of memories...well, I don't know if anyone else is like this, but I relive them as if they are going on at that moment. It felt like I was in high school again, with those displays of kindness being so rare.

I wish we could all be Sean too. Hell, I wish I had learned his last name so we could have stayed in touch, because I don't even think he is aware that HE is Sean, meaning he doesn't know what an impact he had. It would be great to see him for a few minutes, just long enough to tell him that story and express what a ripple effect that had throughout my whole life.

So to that old question teachers and others used to ask us when we were kids, "What do you want to be when you grow up?"

I give the answer: "I want to be as kind, if not more so, than Sean."


----------



## wingchun100 (Feb 3, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I grew up around a lot of racists (KKK member next door, for starters), though fortunately none in the house. There was a deep racial divide at my Jr. High and High schools, but like you I wasn't "in" (and was very shy). So I found it easier to cross that divide and get to know some of the black kids than to deal with the popular kids (many of whom were pretty nice, too, once I got past the bullies). I had a couple of black (color matters in this case) friends in drama class. When they saw me in the halls, they'd do a stereotypical "white guy voice" and call out, "Get out of the hall, n*****!" I'd do my best stereotypical "black guy from the hood voice" and say back, "You betta shut up, honky! I'll cut you!" Happened at least once a week. We never got tired of it. I think it was our way of fighting the stereotypes. Oddly, it never seemed to bother anyone else.


 
I never did that in high school, but I did with the mother of my twins. (Yes, she is black.) I remember talking with her and her friend David, and we got on the topic of what it was like to grow up as white or black. They made some comment about how black people stick together, referring to the phenomenon that happened a lot in my high school where, if a white and black kid were getting in a dispute, and any other black kids nearby noticed, they would all rush to the aid of the kid getting into it with the white guy.

My ex started to tease me a little. She said, "White people don't stick together like that. Why is that?"

I said, "Oh believe me, there are white people that do, but they wear sheets, and they wouldn't be too happy that I'm dating you."

She and her friend were both laid back enough to laugh at that, but I know there are way more people who WOULDN'T.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Feb 3, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> I never did that in high school, but I did with the mother of my twins. (Yes, she is black.) I remember talking with her and her friend David, and we got on the topic of what it was like to grow up as white or black. They made some comment about how black people stick together, referring to the phenomenon that happened a lot in my high school where, if a white and black kid were getting in a dispute, and any other black kids nearby noticed, they would all rush to the aid of the kid getting into it with the white guy.
> 
> My ex started to tease me a little. She said, "White people don't stick together like that. Why is that?"
> 
> ...


Christopher Titus (comedian) does a good job with that in a bit in one of his routines called, "I'm Whitey, and I apologize." In it, he basically apologizes for all the crappy stuff done by whites (mostly Americans) to blacks, American Indians, etc. At the end, he gets all the white folks in the room to yell that apology in unison. Then he says, "And to the rest of you, I'd suggest you accept that apology. You see how quickly we get organized? Scares the hell outta me, too!" He's someone who manages to wander into the grey area of racial comedy, and comes out the other side with both humor and some social statements.


----------



## wingchun100 (Feb 3, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Christopher Titus (comedian) does a good job with that in a bit in one of his routines called, "I'm Whitey, and I apologize." In it, he basically apologizes for all the crappy stuff done by whites (mostly Americans) to blacks, American Indians, etc. At the end, he gets all the white folks in the room to yell that apology in unison. Then he says, "And to the rest of you, I'd suggest you accept that apology. You see how quickly we get organized? Scares the hell outta me, too!" He's someone who manages to wander into the grey area of racial comedy, and comes out the other side with both humor and some social statements.


 
There was some comedian (black guy) who was amazed at how people got angry over the phrase "Black Lives Matter."

He said, "What's acceptable then? Black lives exist? Can we say THAT?"


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Feb 3, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> There was some comedian (black guy) who was amazed at how people got angry over the phrase "Black Lives Matter."
> 
> He said, "What's acceptable then? Black lives exist? Can we say THAT?"


I think the anger some feel about the phrase is the (inferred) implication that they (the person getting angry) doesn't think they matter. A lot of inferences and implications there. Probably too many to get angry over.


----------



## wingchun100 (Feb 3, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I think the anger some feel about the phrase is the (inferred) implication that they (the person getting angry) doesn't think they matter. A lot of inferences and implications there. Probably too many to get angry over.


 
That could be part of it. Another possibility is that the person getting angry thinks the phrase means black lives are the ONLY ones that matter, or that they matter MORE than anyone else. What the angry person is blind to is the fact that the phrase means black lives matter TOO, and such a phrase is necessary because there are far too many people who still disagree with it. Evidence? The man who got shot while putting his hands on his car.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Feb 3, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> That could be part of it. Another possibility is that the person getting angry thinks the phrase means black lives are the ONLY ones that matter, or that they matter MORE than anyone else. What the angry person is blind to is the fact that the phrase means black lives matter TOO, and such a phrase is necessary because there are far too many people who still disagree with it. Evidence? The man who got shot while putting his hands on his car.


Yeah, unfortunately "Black Lives Matter, Too!" isn't nearly as catchy. It would have been the more accurate statement to fit the sentiment.


----------



## wingchun100 (Feb 3, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Yeah, unfortunately "Black Lives Matter, Too!" isn't nearly as catchy. It would have been the more accurate statement to fit the sentiment.


 
That is the line that gets walked, I guess. We need something catchy, but not something that inspires more anger than empathy, but not something that people will ignore, but not...but this...but that...SCREW IT!!! BLACK LIVES MATTER!!!

I mean, I don't know exactly what the discussion was like when the phrase was created, so that is all conjecture.


----------



## Ironbear24 (Feb 3, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> By the way, pandas are not Mexican.



I'm mixed lol.


----------



## elder999 (Feb 3, 2017)

Ironbear24 said:


> I'm mixed lol.


A black and white Mexican!


----------



## wingerjim (Feb 20, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> On this board, we have discussed transgendered people and LGBT people in martial arts. Now I would like to see what people think about THIS particular issue.
> 
> Last Sunday I was at my Wing Chun class. There were four people there total: the Sifu, two other gentlemen, and myself. For those of you who have not seen my previous profile picture, I am a white boy. However, I have daughters who are part black. You will see why I needed to preface the story with that in a moment.
> 
> ...


I would probably do the same as you and let them know this is no place for this kind of talk or language. I have trained with men and women from a large number of backgrounds and can say I have never experienced anything like you described. Funny thing is that in the US most practitioners of Asian Martial Arts are not of Asian decent, so why would a racists in the US study a martial art from China, Japan, Korea, etc? Interesting they would train and trust, possibility with their life, an art created by someone so different from them that they are likely racist against that person.


----------



## Ironbear24 (Feb 21, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Christopher Titus (comedian) does a good job with that in a bit in one of his routines called, "I'm Whitey, and I apologize." In it, he basically apologizes for all the crappy stuff done by whites (mostly Americans) to blacks, American Indians, etc. At the end, he gets all the white folks in the room to yell that apology in unison. Then he says, "And to the rest of you, I'd suggest you accept that apology. You see how quickly we get organized? Scares the hell outta me, too!" He's someone who manages to wander into the grey area of racial comedy, and comes out the other side with both humor and some social statements.



Yeah I know what you mean but I don't understand why some people get offended at the phrase black lives matter. For example the immediate response is all lives matter, well no **** all lives matter but black people happen to be the victims of police brutality at an alarming rate.

It's like if a house is on fire and the fire dept is putting it out. People don't run up to the fire men and smugly say "all houses matter."


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## PhotonGuy (Feb 21, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> On this board, we have discussed transgendered people and LGBT people in martial arts. Now I would like to see what people think about THIS particular issue.
> 
> Last Sunday I was at my Wing Chun class. There were four people there total: the Sifu, two other gentlemen, and myself. For those of you who have not seen my previous profile picture, I am a white boy. However, I have daughters who are part black. You will see why I needed to preface the story with that in a moment.
> 
> ...



I've never encountered such a problem in the many martial arts schools I've trained at or visited. Just about all of them have been multi-racial with their student makeup and everybody respects each other and from my experience martial arts is all about honor and respecting others and so as I've said, I've never encountered such a problem in the martial arts world. 

On the other hand, its somewhat silly now days how just about everything and anything can be called racist somehow or another. Even the game of Chess I've heard some people call it racist because its white vs black and since white goes first that its all about white privilege and all, as silly as that may be.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 21, 2017)

Ironbear24 said:


> Yeah I know what you mean but I don't understand why some people get offended at the phrase black lives matter. For example the immediate response is all lives matter, well no **** all lives matter but black people happen to be the victims of police brutality at an alarming rate.
> 
> It's like if a house is on fire and the fire dept is putting it out. People don't run up to the fire men and smugly say "all houses matter."


There have been those whose rhetoric on the matter made it appear they felt the full phrase wasn't "Black lives matter too!", but "Black lives matter more!". Mind you, for a black person who is concerned about these events, that's probably true (for *all *of us, our lives and those of our loved ones matter more, so nothing wrong with that). I just think there has been a backlash against the few with overblown rhetoric on the matter. Most who use the phrase don't mean it as an insult, but a statement of concern.


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## Steve (Feb 21, 2017)

I think the phrase is intended to impart that black lives matter to people who believe that black lives have no value.  It's not relative to the value of any other lives.


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## drop bear (Feb 21, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Yeah, unfortunately "Black Lives Matter, Too!" isn't nearly as catchy. It would have been the more accurate statement to fit the sentiment.



Race exclusive campaigns to combat racism seems counter productive.


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## Steve (Feb 21, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Race exclusive campaigns to combat racism seems counter productive.


Black lives matter isn't, as I understand it, race exclusive.   It presumes that it is universally understood that other lives matter.

If I said, "tomatoes are fruit," I'm not suggesting that bananas are no longer fruit, or are less fruity than tomoatoes.   Rather, I'm saying that, in a society where we value fruit, we often neglect to include tomatoes in that category.... at all.  To the point where we imply (by our words or actions) that, when we say we value fruit, tomatoes aren't included.


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## drop bear (Feb 21, 2017)

Steve said:


> Black lives matter isn't, as I understand it, race exclusive.   It presumes that it is universally understood that other lives matter.
> 
> If I said, "tomatoes are fruit," I'm not suggesting that bananas are no longer fruit, or are less fruity than tomoatoes.   Rather, I'm saying that, in a society where we value fruit, we often neglect to include tomatoes in that category.... at all.  To the point where we imply (by our words or actions) that, when we say we value fruit, tomatoes aren't included.



By the way have you heard bodycounts no lives matter? 

A bit sweary to link here.


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## Steve (Feb 21, 2017)

I haven't.  Satire?  Link?


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## drop bear (Feb 21, 2017)

Steve said:


> I haven't.  Satire?  Link?



No link.  I will get banned.  Deadly serious. Ice T is making a comeback.


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## wingchun100 (Feb 21, 2017)

wingerjim said:


> I would probably do the same as you and let them know this is no place for this kind of talk or language. I have trained with men and women from a large number of backgrounds and can say I have never experienced anything like you described. Funny thing is that in the US most practitioners of Asian Martial Arts are not of Asian decent, so why would a racists in the US study a martial art from China, Japan, Korea, etc? Interesting they would train and trust, possibility with their life, an art created by someone so different from them that they are likely racist against that person.



Apparently they are racist against only certain folks. LOL


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## wingchun100 (Feb 21, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> I've never encountered such a problem in the many martial arts schools I've trained at or visited. Just about all of them have been multi-racial with their student makeup and everybody respects each other and from my experience martial arts is all about honor and respecting others and so as I've said, I've never encountered such a problem in the martial arts world.
> 
> On the other hand, its somewhat silly now days how just about everything and anything can be called racist somehow or another. Even the game of Chess I've heard some people call it racist because its white vs black and since white goes first that its all about white privilege and all, as silly as that may be.



Yes, it is silly when they try to say certain things are racist. (Look up the Smiths song "Panic." They said it was racist because he wrote the lyrics "Hang the DJ," but if you listen to the song, he says, "The music they constantly play says nothing to me about my life." I think we can dislike a certain kind of music simply because we don't like the style, and not because we don't like the people.) However, in this case...I don't think there is any other label you can apply to what was said, especially when the N-word came out.


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## PhotonGuy (Feb 21, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> Yes, it is silly when they try to say certain things are racist. (Look up the Smiths song "Panic." They said it was racist because he wrote the lyrics "Hang the DJ," but if you listen to the song, he says, "The music they constantly play says nothing to me about my life." I think we can dislike a certain kind of music simply because we don't like the style, and not because we don't like the people.) However, in this case...I don't think there is any other label you can apply to what was said, especially when the N-word came out.



Heck one could even say the martial arts is racist with its ranking system in terms of the belt colors. Silly how just about everything and anything can be called racist.


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## Steve (Feb 21, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> Heck one could even say the martial arts is racist with its ranking system in terms of the belt colors. Silly how just about everything and anything can be called racist.


Wait.  What?


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## Ironbear24 (Feb 21, 2017)

Steve said:


> Wait.  What?



Idk man. Some of the posts here are making me roll my eyes lol.


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## Tez3 (Feb 22, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> Heck one could even say the martial arts is racist with its ranking system in terms of the belt colors. Silly how just about everything and anything can be called racist.




What on earth are you talking about? Belt colours can't be called racist, no sane sensible person would think racism and belts had anything to do with other. Do look up the words 'Race' and 'Racism' then understand that anything and everything cannot be called racist, in fact your remark comes across as coming from someone who hasn't had a racist remark or action aimed at them therefore shows little empathy or understanding what it's like to be the target of such despicable behaviour.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 22, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> What on earth are you talking about? Belt colours can't be called racist, no sane sensible person would think racism and belts had anything to do with other. Do look up the words 'Race' and 'Racism' then understand that anything and everything cannot be called racist, in fact your remark comes across as coming from someone who hasn't had a racist remark or action aimed at them therefore shows little empathy or understanding what it's like to be the target of such despicable behaviour.


I think he's referring to those folks who seem to think everything is a sideways reference to race. Since one of the belts is black and one is white (in some schools, that's all there are), someone could say, "Look! See - a lot of white belts, and just a few blacks. Y'all make people do all this stuff to keep them from being able to wear black like it's a bad thing!"

Now, we all know that's not what's going on. But I've heard actual arguments that weren't any less ludicrous.


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## Tez3 (Feb 22, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I think he's referring to those folks who seem to think everything is a sideways reference to race. Since one of the belts is black and one is white (in some schools, that's all there are), someone could say, "Look! See - a lot of white belts, and just a few blacks. Y'all make people do all this stuff to keep them from being able to wear black like it's a bad thing!"
> 
> Now, we all know that's not what's going on. But I've heard actual arguments that weren't any less ludicrous.



To be honest I haven't heard arguments like that, but while we do have our problems we don't have such a wide black/white divide here, we don't call black people who live here Black British people, they are just bog standard Brits like the rest of us LOL. When black solders and airmen arrived here during the last war there was a lot of problems because the American authorities wanted 'separation' between them and the local community but the local communities didn't understand nor adhere to such strictures. Of course there were plenty of moans about 'Yanks' being rich etc but those moans encompassed all Americans, it didn't single out races or colour because the locals saw them as Americans only. 'Americans' were seen as somewhat exotic whatever their colour having been usually only seen on the big screen.   If people think black people were a 'novelty' here at time they should remember black people have been in the UK since Roman times c 54 CE.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 22, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> To be honest I haven't heard arguments like that, but while we do have our problems we don't have such a wide black/white divide here, we don't call black people who live here Black British people, they are just bog standard Brits like the rest of us LOL. When black solders and airmen arrived here during the last war there was a lot of problems because the American authorities wanted 'separation' between them and the local community but the local communities didn't understand nor adhere to such strictures. Of course there were plenty of moans about 'Yanks' being rich etc but those moans encompassed all Americans, it didn't single out races or colour because the locals saw them as Americans only. 'Americans' were seen as somewhat exotic whatever their colour having been usually only seen on the big screen.   If people think black people were a 'novelty' here at time they should remember black people have been in the UK since Roman times c 54 CE.


I remember reading about that (the WWII experiences) in a book - perhaps _Citizens of London_.

I remember standing in a fast-food restaurant, and a woman was yelling at the cashier (apparently having been told some item wasn't available) and saying something to this effect: "Y'all just won't sell me that because I'm black!" I was more than a little surprised, because other than the cashier in question, I was the only non-black person in the restaurant, so far as I could see. It's unusual, but I've seen similar instances before. Mind you, I live not far from an area of the country where there's a reasonable likelihood the person making such claims has actually been subject to racism. They've just learned to over-generalize it.


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## Tez3 (Feb 22, 2017)

Racism in the UK has nearly always been geared towards the Irish ( and vice versa, the hatred between the two has sometimes been overwhelming), the Jews and the Roman Catholics (there's a long history, at least 5 centuries worth there and has quite a bit to do with the Irish as well as 'foreigners'). There has been and still is prejudice towards black and Asian people but it takes a different turn to that in America because Britain was for so long in charge of colonies. Often the way the prejudice takes form is in paternalism, thinking that black people are like children still in need of a ruling figure to 'guide' them. If you read John Buchan's The Thirty Nine Steps rather than watching the films you will see what I mean, the book and it's language is very different from the film and television versions, for good reason. I will add that Americans tend to be treated the same way at times lol, ie 'you'll be fine when you row up', it does tend to be English people that do this to others, the Celtic races ( Irish, Scottish, Manx, Cornish and Welsh) are more open minded towards other races...other than the English ( more centuries old feuds) Being English means carrying a lot of historical baggage. I'm glad my parents were Scottish and Dutch!


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 22, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Racism in the UK has nearly always been geared towards the Irish ( and vice versa, the hatred between the two has sometimes been overwhelming), the Jews and the Roman Catholics (there's a long history, at least 5 centuries worth there and has quite a bit to do with the Irish as well as 'foreigners'). There has been and still is prejudice towards black and Asian people but it takes a different turn to that in America because Britain was for so long in charge of colonies. Often the way the prejudice takes form is in paternalism, thinking that black people are like children still in need of a ruling figure to 'guide' them. If you read John Buchan's The Thirty Nine Steps rather than watching the films you will see what I mean, the book and it's language is very different from the film and television versions, for good reason. I will add that Americans tend to be treated the same way at times lol, ie 'you'll be fine when you row up', it does tend to be English people that do this to others, the Celtic races ( Irish, Scottish, Manx, Cornish and Welsh) are more open minded towards other races...other than the English ( more centuries old feuds) Being English means carrying a lot of historical baggage. I'm glad my parents were Scottish and Dutch!



It appears the "English" and "Han" people of China, have something in common.


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## PhotonGuy (Feb 22, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> What on earth are you talking about? Belt colours can't be called racist, no sane sensible person would think racism and belts had anything to do with other. Do look up the words 'Race' and 'Racism' then understand that anything and everything cannot be called racist, in fact your remark comes across as coming from someone who hasn't had a racist remark or action aimed at them therefore shows little empathy or understanding what it's like to be the target of such despicable behaviour.



I never said that I would call belt colors racist or that I consider them racist, what Im saying is that there are some people who might consider them racist, as silly as that might be. As you said that not anything and everything can be called racist, my point exactly, but there are some people who do think that anything and everything can be called racist. As I said before how some people consider Chess to be racist. I don't but there is some people that do. I never said I agree with that but there are some people who think that, as silly as it is.

I agree that no sane person would associate racism with belt color but lets face it, not everybody is sane.


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## PhotonGuy (Feb 22, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I think he's referring to those folks who seem to think everything is a sideways reference to race. Since one of the belts is black and one is white (in some schools, that's all there are), someone could say, "Look! See - a lot of white belts, and just a few blacks. Y'all make people do all this stuff to keep them from being able to wear black like it's a bad thing!"


Thank you. My point exactly. Although I was thinking more along the lines of how black is the highest ranking color and white is the lowest ranking color how some people might say that therefore the martial arts is about black superiority. I wouldn't say that and I don't agree with such lines of thinking but as you said, some people consider everything to be a sideways reference to race.


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## KenpoMaster805 (Feb 22, 2017)

well 1st i will tell my sifu if the sifu doesnt do northing ill confront them and tell them that is not right what you are doing you talking about black people aye their humans too ok what would happend if somebody talked about you would you be mad i would say that and stop being racist


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## Tez3 (Feb 22, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> Thank you. My point exactly. Although I was thinking more along the lines of how black is the highest ranking color and white is the lowest ranking color how some people might say that therefore the martial arts is about black superiority. I wouldn't say that and I don't agree with such lines of thinking but as you said, some people consider everything to be a sideways reference to race.



If you agree that sane people wouldn't think like that why then do you go on and elaborate something none of us were thinking? You say you wouldn't say that just after saying it roflmao.


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## drop bear (Feb 22, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I remember reading about that (the WWII experiences) in a book - perhaps _Citizens of London_.
> 
> I remember standing in a fast-food restaurant, and a woman was yelling at the cashier (apparently having been told some item wasn't available) and saying something to this effect: "Y'all just won't sell me that because I'm black!" I was more than a little surprised, because other than the cashier in question, I was the only non-black person in the restaurant, so far as I could see. It's unusual, but I've seen similar instances before. Mind you, I live not far from an area of the country where there's a reasonable likelihood the person making such claims has actually been subject to racism. They've just learned to over-generalize it.



People will try it on if they can. Pubs it happens all the time. .  It is because they are black. Or because they are gay or have tatoos. 

I just call for a whaaaaaaambulance.


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## Ironbear24 (Feb 22, 2017)

White belts matter.


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## kuniggety (Feb 22, 2017)

Ironbear24 said:


> White belts matter.



I wouldn't get in so much knee on belly practice without them.


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