# WC Kicking the forgotten part of the art?



## Si-Je (Feb 7, 2007)

I've noticed watching these videos from many schools online that it seems many do not incorporate the kicking in sparring, drills, or application as much.  We've had students come to us from other teachers and they become so surprised when my instructor re-directs, attacks, and kicks them at the same time.  Even in Chi Sau I rarely see the legs used.

Being very small, I've found that without the kicks I'm not able to execute quite a few WC techniques as well.  Whether it's latching the neck or arm for a take down, re-directing their body, or defending against a grappler's take down.  Even just being able to reach the face to punch, or chop the throat (my instructor is 6'4" I'm 5'5").  But when I kick the leg at the same time, I'm able to overcome a much larger attackers force, and thus more effectively defend myself.

It's been brought to my attention that not all schools do this, and I wondered why?


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## monji112000 (Feb 7, 2007)

are you talking about kicking in general or combining kicking with a hand attack like a punch? If you are talking about kicking and lets say punching at the exact same time. Its in the dummy form, and some people do this in fighting. But it has been explained to me that just because its done that way in the form, doesn't mean the Idea behind it is exactly that way. 

I have tried to do this move when I spar and it has never worked for me. I have been told that when you kick and punch at the same time you will a)one of the techniques loses its power b) you don't have much base to stop you from falling over.

that was what constantly happened to me when someone attacked me full force.

If you are talking about adding kicks to follow or precede your hand attacks.. I think they are the most vital aspect of Wing Chun. JMO 
Some people focus and hardening the hand and making it into a weapon. But for me thats not realistic, were the foot already is a weapon. My hands are not going to be crippled. JMO


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## Si-Je (Feb 8, 2007)

We train to kick as you come in deflecting and punching at the same time.  Sometimes latching and kicking simultaneously, followed up with chain punching, etc.
I can understand feeling unbalanced when you kick and punch at the same time.  I felt the same when I first started training.  You just drill it and you'll start to do it without thinking.  
On a larger and stronger opponent I've regained balance when I kicked the leg.  Using them for balance in a way.  Side stepping and pivoting as you move forward, kicking the knee as you deflect and punching as you continuesly move forward into the attacker.  You'll pretty much "bowl them over" or litterly walk through them.  They have to back up or go down when the knee is kicked.  Thus, this brings a taller attacker down to my height so my punches are more effective.  Keeping me from having to reach up to punch.


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## Si-Je (Feb 25, 2007)

Apparently it is the forgotten part of the art.  (crickets chirping)

We noticed this in our area of the world and I just wondered if there were others out there that simoltaneously deflected, attacked, kicked and stepped/pivoted into the opponent.  This is our main objective in a conflict, and what we teach pretty early on so the students can develop these skills. (crickets chirping louder)

I just didn't think we were totally alone in this form of teaching Wing Chun.
(crickets having a breakdancing feista)


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## larry (May 13, 2007)

traditionally students do not learn kicking application until they are able to adequately sink.  The reason is that they won't be able to kick without coming up out of their roots.  As a result they may be able to know and practice kicks but they have no power or balance.  Some teachers can kick accurately and with power,  and good enough to disrupt the opponent's structure.  But they never acheived the chi gurk level.  Wing chun's hand and body structure are adequate enough to defeat most opponents.  Completing the leg training for total body unity is not something that a lot of practitioners complete.


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## Nobody (May 14, 2007)

Yea, i have had the same question an just think that maybe the people are not mentally or physically coordinated enough to do it yet.  The thing is wing chung kick are the most important thing cause when you start fighting the more advanced from other schools the easiest way to defeat there kicking is the wing chung kick.  I still stand an look at people that are considered master both on the internet an of the internet in wing chung i have meet never even employ such an easy technique that it just leaves me sad for where wing chung is going.  That first kick as monji112000 says is in the wooden dummy form an just over all indicates the use of kick against a kick.   Who ever told him not to apply it like the wooden dummy form is a person that i hope was trying to say something else.  Cause oddly i have found that most thing wing chung literally apply to all form of fighting directly as they are.   That has been a thing i noticed an then there are these people teaching wing chung that do not even have a good or close to how i was shown to apply each of the blocks an a lot that just do not use connecting or forward energy when doing the bridging in a block or a punch.  I have seen for instance two hands to one arm instead of as i was taught.  

p.s. yea i left out the name of blocks intentionally not sure if everyone hear knows the name this time.


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## monji112000 (May 14, 2007)

in the dummy form there is a part were you punch and kick at the exact same time, I was talking about that. From what I understand this isn't exactly the application of the technique. To punch and kick exactly at the time in my opinion and from my testing this it doesn't work.

Kicking someones kick can work very well and I didn't say or imply that it can't. you have to feel the timing, and you can kick thier round kick.



> Who ever told him not to apply it like the wooden dummy form is a person that i hope was trying to say something else.


Its a waste of time to name the names of people you don't know. Lets just say I come from the opinion that the dummy form has parts that can be applied without much thinking and others that arn't apparent. Thats why many people feel once you can "dismantle" the dummy form you know the whole system.

I respect your opnion, I just disagree.



> I have seen for instance two hands to one arm instead of as i was taught.


key phrase being "what I was tought". Just becouse you were tought something doesn't make it correct or incorrect. everyone can take a crack at creating unique and avongard ways to apply any technique from any style doesn't mean it works. If someone shows you something that they are able to do in a real fight, its worth looking and trying to understand why it works. Thats even more important when its something you were not tought. That doesn't negate what you were tought or negate your teachers "honor".

I have recently visited a handful of schools and I am always open and interested in learning something.

just as a side note, I don't follow the belife that Wing Chun has blocks, we cover. :drinkbeer


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## Nobody (May 15, 2007)

Well i am just saying that i can not know what your instructor was saying cause you are probably just paring it down which there is possibly something more to what was said.  

I have found both the excat idea works in wing chung an the singular act broken from the wooden dummy form so i agree with you there.

Your right about the word block i should have used the term for what i was meaning instead of being to skeptical of people knowledge of terms.  Next, time i will just use the terms on my mind!  I will be more discriptive next time.


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## Si-Je (May 18, 2007)

We teach kicking (heel kick) at least the very first class.  Along with chain punching, stance and stepping and dai sau.  Beginning students learn right away to deflect, punch, kick and step into their opponent immediately.
We've found that if you teach this way right from the beginning it allows the student to develop the coordination, power, and simoltaneous technique needed to be devastatingly effecive.

Other masters teach this way, maybe not all, but i've found kicking as you defelect and attack.  This is how you defeat a larger and stronger attacker.  By doing more in a moment, not giving your opponent an opportunity to counter you defense and attack you further.

Being short as well, I've found that kicking the leg right off the bat kills the opponents power when they are punching and brings them to my "height" enough so I can more effectively punch them.  Plus, turning them, changing their balance, but reguardless if you break the leg, hyper extend the knee, or just turn their body or break their forward force, it's all good.  And either way makes you more effective.


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## bcbernam777 (May 21, 2007)

Learn to take the Sui Lum Tao, and utilise it in the Chum Kui, then you will have the foundation for kicking.


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## brocklee (Jun 20, 2007)

Si-Je said:


> We teach kicking (heel kick) at least the very first class.  Along with chain punching, stance and stepping and dai sau.  Beginning students learn right away to deflect, punch, kick and step into their opponent immediately.
> We've found that if you teach this way right from the beginning it allows the student to develop the coordination, power, and simoltaneous technique needed to be devastatingly effecive.
> 
> Other masters teach this way, maybe not all, but i've found kicking as you defelect and attack.  This is how you defeat a larger and stronger attacker.  By doing more in a moment, not giving your opponent an opportunity to counter you defense and attack you further.
> ...



My very first class, taught to me in mexico, consisted of learning to walk, learning to walk with the heal kick/shin scrape, and chain punches.  Having done it from the beginning made it fairly easy to pick up.  Upon first contact in combat now my body WANTS to scrape the shin while closing the distance.  It was taught to me that if you can take the opponents mind out of the game, then you will win.  The initial scrape forces the untrained eye to look down because it's unexpected.  When the other person that you are fighting watches you close in, their eyes go somewhat crossed.  This limits the peripheral vision and gives a slight tunnel vision effect making the kick unseen.  While still in the same forward moving/advancing motion you throw in the leg scrape, and a milli-second later you work the arms (if necessary) and then sternum/neck.  This will surely throw your opponent back if not knock him down leaving him breathless.  I would probably throw in a palm strike to the ear as he goes down.  Just to seal the deal.


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## graychuan (Jul 7, 2007)

~C


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## Si-Je (Jul 9, 2007)

Kick the knee to bring the opponent down, not just scrape or distract.  That would be wasted movement.
Moving the body as one will achieve maximum effenciency.  Kicking, deflect, punch, and step in at the same time.  This is how I was taught from both teachers.


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## KamonGuy2 (Jul 12, 2007)

The trouble is it can be very hard to use a stamp kick during a fight. 
I have been in a few fights (too many) and most of the time people grab me. In this situation I can sometimes use kicking/sweeping, but only if the opponent is static. 

Many students in class get carried away with kicking first and find that it never works. Or worse, their opponent is submissive and allows the kick to pretend to have hurt them. 

I find stamp kicks great for finishing a person (ie strike the face/throat etc and then take out his lower half. 

Si-Je where do you train/ if you ever want to come down to my class and work on stuff afterwards you are welcome. It seems like you are doubting you're ability to take someone out using your upper half (arms etc) and I'm sure you could easily do this. I am a big guy and train alongside women and they have no problem dealing with me

Don't lose faith


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## Si-Je (Jul 12, 2007)

My hands are good, but their not my complete arsenal.  Stamp kick is fine for close in, but Heel kick can help get you there, or hook kick, or stance work.  If you do this as your attacking with your hands it tends to keep an opponent busy.

Since your a big guy, I'd probably use alot of kicking.  I train with large men, and I've found this brings them down to my height so to speak.  
We train to kick, deflect, attack and step at the same time.  Very effective.  Doesn't give your oppoent much time to counter.

I've seen this trend in Wing Chun and wanted to know if anyone elese train's like this.  As of yet I haven't see anyone that does.  (except for the masters that taught my teacher/hubbie)  Just curious.

As for pretending, that's what alot of training is.  You don't want to really hurt your training partner.  You can still experiment and find what works for you.


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## KamonGuy2 (Jul 13, 2007)

Si-Je said:


> My hands are good, but their not my complete arsenal. Stamp kick is fine for close in, but Heel kick can help get you there, or hook kick, or stance work. If you do this as your attacking with your hands it tends to keep an opponent busy.
> 
> Since your a big guy, I'd probably use alot of kicking. I train with large men, and I've found this brings them down to my height so to speak.
> We train to kick, deflect, attack and step at the same time. Very effective. Doesn't give your oppoent much time to counter.
> ...


 
I have found that kicking a big guy is dangerous. I train MT and TKD as well as wing chun and smaller guys try and kick me. The problem they find that I have too much muscle around my legs for kicks to be effective. Not only that but I soon counter with an attack of my own. My legs beat their legs every time

Due to my legs being of larger mass it is like a gazelle kicking an elephant!!

Can I just ask Si Je - have you had success in a real confrontation using this tactic. I am not being sarcastic - I am genuinally interested. 

I have found that in all aspects of my training, people have found it very hard to bring me down using kicks as their first attack.


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## Si-Je (Jul 13, 2007)

It's been quite awhile since I've been in a street brawl!  I'm a big girl now.
But as for kicking a large man in thier tree trunk legs the important thing is WHERE you kick.

Our Hook kick is my least favorite kick, it's too much like a MT kick.  Your right, if I kick a fella like you in the thiegh, shin, or main part of the leg there will be no effect.

But, if I use one of my favorite kicks, Heel Kick, large legs won't help you much.  I've noticed that big guys almost always have bad knees.  
Heel kick the knee, side of the knee, and a smaller person will do just fine.
My hubbie leg presses about 1,000 lbs. with his legs.  His knees are definately the weakness.  No amount of leg muscle is going to help your joint.  

You do this with deflection and attack your hands will back up your kick, and step into the opponnets space at the same time you'll find that you WC will be twice as devastating.


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## brocklee (Jul 15, 2007)

Si-Je said:


> It's been quite awhile since I've been in a street brawl!  I'm a big girl now.
> But as for kicking a large man in thier tree trunk legs the important thing is WHERE you kick.
> 
> Our Hook kick is my least favorite kick, it's too much like a MT kick.  Your right, if I kick a fella like you in the thiegh, shin, or main part of the leg there will be no effect.
> ...



Damn she's smart


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## KamonGuy2 (Jul 16, 2007)

Si-Je said:


> It's been quite awhile since I've been in a street brawl! I'm a big girl now.
> But as for kicking a large man in thier tree trunk legs the important thing is WHERE you kick.
> 
> Our Hook kick is my least favorite kick, it's too much like a MT kick. Your right, if I kick a fella like you in the thiegh, shin, or main part of the leg there will be no effect.
> ...


I see what you are saying, but in a real fight when someone grabs you, the kick is going to be hard to pull off. 

Any kick (even a childs) has a lot of power. It is heavier than a leg. The knee can only take about 10 pounds of pressure before it collapses (bends the wrong way), but it is often hard to hit the target, especially if the target is moving. 

I would suggest getting comfortable with both ways of fighting. I used to box (and still do from time to time) and relied upon my upper body. Before I did wing chun, someone grabbed my hands and I didn't know what to do!! It was too close to use my karate kicks and I hadn't developed stripping techniques from wing chun etc

As I said, my offer is open and you are more than welcome to come train. There are some techniques that will bring big guys down without using kicks. 

It's good you have developed that power in your legs though


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## NanFeiShen (Jul 16, 2007)

Been out of Wing Chun for a while now, concentrating on Taiji, but still keep up my forms, stepping and kicking.
With training, Wing Chun kicking can be quite devastating, and very powerful.
If done right, they are almost impossible to counter in time, and if one doesnt expect it, they are solid shots.
My teacher had OCD, (not a bad thing for a teacher), and there were many classes where the hour was spent only kicking. 50 - 100 repetitions per leg, then change and same again, at the time it was a killer, but the benefits were certainly there.
Heres one training trick we used, : Take one plastic chair (the common hall type/public chair) turn its back towards you. In stance weight on back leg , forward leg light, place your forward foot on the floor in line with the back of the chair. Proceed to practice your forward heel kick by lifting the knee and kicking out over the top of the back of the chair. The idea is to develop the technique of lifting knee, extending leg and bring leg back with knee up ready for another.
Another training technique, is to get a heavy bag, stand quite close and lift knee to place foot flat against bottom part of bag, now thrust forward hard with the foot, pushing the bag out and away, Keep the leg up and use the same foot to stop the back swing of the bag, ...helps with rooting for kicking.
To develop power in Wing Chun kicking, one needs strong upper leg muscles, for quick lift and hard thrust, the secret is getting the knee up high.
Training that way will build strength and power so that when you use smaller shorter kicks in sparring they will have power and speed, plus you will find your root will be strong.


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## KamonGuy2 (Jul 17, 2007)

Yeah don't get me wrong, I train wing chun kicking as much as anything else and I can break a persons leg with ease (as I am quite heavy). What I am talking about is an average wing chun practitioner (like my students) who kick first or block a teachnique and then counter with a kick. 

It doesn't work. One of my students is an ex Muay Thai guy who used to train at professional level. His round kick would pretty much destroy anything. But even he had to admit that with bigger guys or in a clinch, kicks are difficult if not impossible


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## Si-Je (Jul 17, 2007)

NanFeiShen said:


> and there were many classes where the hour was spent only kicking. 50 - 100 repetitions per leg, then change and same again, at the time it was a killer, but the benefits were certainly there.
> Heres one training trick we used, : Take one plastic chair (the common hall type/public chair) turn its back towards you. In stance weight on back leg , forward leg light, place your forward foot on the floor in line with the back of the chair. Proceed to practice your forward heel kick by lifting the knee and kicking out over the top of the back of the chair. The idea is to develop the technique of lifting knee, extending leg and bring leg back with knee up ready for another.
> Another training technique, is to get a heavy bag, stand quite close and lift knee to place foot flat against bottom part of bag, now thrust forward hard with the foot, pushing the bag out and away, Keep the leg up and use the same foot to stop the back swing of the bag, ...helps with rooting for kicking.
> To develop power in Wing Chun kicking, one needs strong upper leg muscles, for quick lift and hard thrust, the secret is getting the knee up high.


 
Cool!  That's very similar to how we train.  Plus isometrics.  Man that's killer.  We put a kicking bag and strap it to a tree and while keeping the leg in the kicking position continiously push repeatedly against the pad and tree.  You get used to that kind of pressure, a large muscluar leg will not be hard to handle.

We also use kicks to cancel out an opponents kicking attacks.  Or bong girk and Yap girk (spelling's probably off) which is a whole nutter deal.
We've been training to kick closer to the opponent, as in when grabbed by someone.  It is VERY possible and effective.  You also have your knees.  Heck, when someone grabbs you firmly, your only option may be to kick.

As for MT roundhouses.  I'm lazy, so I really prefer heel kick to stop that from landing.  It's faster, more effecient, and keeps my shins from being totalled.  

But, the point of all this kicking talk, is that it is cruitial to have it combined with arms, stepping and forward pressure.  (don't refer to force, tends to make people tense up when instructing).
I guess I've gotten the answer to my question in this thread.  It really seems that most WC/WT practitioners neglect the legwork and focus too much on hands.  Which is fine, if your the same size or bigger than an attacker.  And after a few years of hands training, sure, you could defeat a larger attacker.  But that's alot of effort and time.  Just saying it'd be twice as effective if you use all of your body to defend and attack.

Plus, you don't always have to kick the knee, there's the inner theigh, and the groin.  And once their down a notch, there is the head, face, neck, etc.

In a fight I'm just saying use everything you've got.  (Your arms and legs) 

Just a girl's point of view.


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## Si-Je (Jul 17, 2007)

Kamon Guy said:


> As I said, my offer is open and you are more than welcome to come train. There are some techniques that will bring big guys down without using kicks.
> 
> It's good you have developed that power in your legs though


 
Where do you train at?  That might be fun to swap ideas.

As for power in the legs.  It's really all relative.  Techique will save you more than power or strength.  Especially when your a pettite, short, skinny minny like myself.  

I could lift weights, train for power and muscle all day every day.  But when it comes to crunch time, Men train for physical strength too, and I'll NEVER be able to compete with that.  So better to use smarts.  For me anyway.


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## KamonGuy2 (Jul 18, 2007)

Si-Je said:


> Where do you train at? That might be fun to swap ideas.
> 
> As for power in the legs. It's really all relative. Techique will save you more than power or strength. Especially when your a pettite, short, skinny minny like myself.
> 
> I could lift weights, train for power and muscle all day every day. But when it comes to crunch time, Men train for physical strength too, and I'll NEVER be able to compete with that. So better to use smarts. For me anyway.


 
Exactly. That is why I love wing chun. Even though I'm a big guiy there is always someone bigger out there (as I have found)!

A lot of arts such as BJJ, Muay Thai, boxing, the more muscly you are the better. But in the real world you could find yourslef up against anyone

You are always welcome to come down after class and train for a bit. I'm not brilliant at chi sao, but I can certainly give you a few fighting techniques to go and play with and I'd be interested to see what you do in your fighting

I'm at the Epsom Class
http://www.kamonwingchun.com/ClassInfo.aspx?#Horsham

In Kamon, anyone is welcome to come down and watch a class. I know some wing chun schools get funny about people coming down and watching, but we don't mind. 

This is for anyone else as well, who belong to another wing chun school and is interested to see what we do

SiJe, give me a private message or phone and we will arrange a time to train


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## KamonGuy2 (Jul 18, 2007)

Si-Je said:


> Where do you train at? That might be fun to swap ideas.
> 
> As for power in the legs. It's really all relative. Techique will save you more than power or strength. Especially when your a pettite, short, skinny minny like myself.
> 
> I could lift weights, train for power and muscle all day every day. But when it comes to crunch time, Men train for physical strength too, and I'll NEVER be able to compete with that. So better to use smarts. For me anyway.


 
Exactly. That is why I love wing chun. Even though I'm a big guiy there is always someone bigger out there (as I have found)!

A lot of arts such as BJJ, Muay Thai, boxing, the more muscly you are the better. But in the real world you could find yourslef up against anyone

You are always welcome to come down after class and train for a bit. I'm not brilliant at chi sao, but I can certainly give you a few fighting techniques to go and play with and I'd be interested to see what you do in your fighting

I'm at the Epsom Class
http://www.kamonwingchun.com/ClassInfo.aspx?#Horsham

In Kamon, anyone is welcome to come down and watch a class. I know some wing chun schools get funny about people coming down and watching, but we don't mind. 

This is for anyone else as well, who belong to another wing chun school and is interested to swap ideas etc

SiJe, give me a private message or phone and we will arrange a time to train


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## Si-Je (Jul 18, 2007)

Cool website.  I'm afraid that I'm not on that island.  I hail from Texas, would be a fun trip.


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## KamonGuy2 (Jul 19, 2007)

That's a shame. My bro is in America at the moment - he resides in Baltimore and is good at wing chun. He lacks my size but he is a pretty formidable opponent

SiJe do you have your website?


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## Si-Je (Jul 23, 2007)

Our website is up, but the school is closed now.  Due to lack of funds, advertising, and students signing up. 
We have several private lesson students. 6-7 That we will be continuing training with us.  Unfortunately, with a schools overhead we needed 25 to continue to pay the rent on the building.
We're going to change up the website soon to advertise private lessons, and seminars availability only.

Here is the URL:
http://www.panthercitymartialarts.com

There are some more videos at my myspace account
myspace.com/ladiesofmartialarts   This is a great site for women in martial arts.  I started it to help keep women motivated and excited about being a martial artist.  There are videos, pic's, and a forum.


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## KamonGuy2 (Jul 24, 2007)

Si-Je said:


> Our website is up, but the school is closed now. Due to lack of funds, advertising, and students signing up.
> We have several private lesson students. 6-7 That we will be continuing training with us. Unfortunately, with a schools overhead we needed 25 to continue to pay the rent on the building.
> We're going to change up the website soon to advertise private lessons, and seminars availability only.
> There are some more videos at my myspace account
> myspace.com/ladiesofmartialarts This is a great site for women in martial arts. I started it to help keep women motivated and excited about being a martial artist. There are videos, pic's, and a forum.


Woah!! you needed 25 students to keep up with the hall rent? 
Couldn't you get a smaller/cheaper hall? Or maybe increase the fees?
In the UK I only need 3 students to cover the hall costs.

I know that instructors want to keep prices cheap for their students, but don't do it too cheap!!

Good to see that you are encouraging women to get into the martial arts. I have noticed that most schools are devoid of female students!


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## Si-Je (Jul 24, 2007)

Well, we weren't exactly cheap, but not the most expensive.  Leasing a building is outrageous!  We'd need to charge 12 people 100.00 a month to keep that place, and it was the cheapest we could find.  And ridiculously small.
Then, the damn place flooded twice in two months!  About a foot inside the building.  The first time we were right in the middle of the kids class!  Needless to say, we lost all our kids that day.  It's been flooding all over north Texas these past three months.  Totally ruined us, our neighbors, everyone up and down the street.
The landlord didn't care, and wanted rent, wouldn't work with us.  Screw!  I'll never, never, ever do that again.


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## KamonGuy2 (Jul 25, 2007)

Oh no, that is a shame. 

I do find that most of my stress comes from hall hire and the unreliability of others. 

Even in the UK some towns are more expensive than others. 

I do an hour and a half session every Saturday and do a monthly charge of £40 ($80). 

If there is anything I can help you with to get you up and running let me know. Maybe you could come to the UK, join Kamon and start a class here!!!!


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## Si-Je (Jul 25, 2007)

That's very sweet.  Thanks for the offer.  We'll be okay, just starting over.  We won't be opening a new school like that, it's too expensive here.  We really don't have the ability to jet off the England, which would be fun!  We've been wanting to move out of country for awhile.  
Our senior student just moved to the Phillipines, so it seems to be a trend lately.  lol!

But, there are other ways we can teach.  Our students from the school are very eager to continue their training, which we will just keep teaching them via private instruction.  And we'll see where that takes us.  Me being a mom, it's hard to get training time in, but we're working on that too.


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