# The body's reaction to strikes



## ikenpo

In general there is a belief that based on a particular stike the body will react a particular way. We believe this because that is how the technique is written and taught. When's the last time these theories were checked to make sure those responses are still valid? Generally speaking what does the body do when...

Kicked in the groin
poked in the eye
hit in the lower solar plexus
hit in the higher solar plexus
hit in the kidney
chopped in the neck, etc...

Is there a breakdown out there that has been recently varified and could be listed here? Any surprising replies? One that comes to mind is where Doc always says someone hit in the balls won't drop immediately. Just curious, because now in many schools they are having the person respond to an attack by "putting their hands where they were just hit" as the correct response. Is that always what is going to happen? Who said? If you kicked in the knee are you going to reach down for it, or start hopping on the other foot to remove the pressure or just fall? Then how does that reaction change based on angle of entry? Should reactions to attacks be taught as a section unto themselves?

jb:asian:


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## jfarnsworth

The only answers I can offer is that in Mr. Planas' seminars he has always said they will cover where it hurts. Personally I tend to agree with that statement. As for a side kick to the knee my guess is that someone will scream in pain, drop on their side then grab their knee and most likely roll side to side in much pain. 
The following will be my thoughts on
Groin: Hips drop backward as the height drops down with both hands covering the groin.
_Eye poke:_ They will stand more erect, both hands cover the eyes.
_Solar Plexus (in general):_ One time yrs. ago practicing TKD I took a jump back spin kick in the solar plexus; it dropped me to one knee FAST.
_Kidney:_ An arch of the back, most likely try to grab with the hand on that side that got hit.
_Chop to the neck:_  Well this will vary on are you talking about Delayed Sword, or Five swords? One they are standing erect the other their already bent over. 
Anyway these are my beliefs of what would happen; right or wrong this is what I think are the possibilities.


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## SingingTiger

> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _
> *One that comes to mind is where Doc always says someone hit in the balls won't drop immediately. Just curious, because now in many schools they are having the person respond to an attack by "putting their hands where they were just hit" as the correct response.*



In general, this makes sense to me.  I've never been hit/kicked in the groin _really_ hard, but I have been hit/kicked there, and my experience has always been that the pain isn't immediate, it takes a second or two to really sink in, so I wouldn't be doubling over immediately like they always do in movies.  But I _do_ notice the strike immediately, and instinctively I just reach down.

Just my experience.

Rich


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## ikenpo

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *The only answers I can offer is that in Mr. Planas' seminars he has always said they will cover where it hurts. *



This is exactly what I mean...."well, so and so said that's what would happen"....Does that make it a fact in every instance? I don't mean to come off as one that would question a Grand Master or Master of the Arts, but everyone has applied there own method of telling us how it feels to "get wet" (following the swimming analogy), couldn't there at least be an updated, varifiable standard that everyone uses?




> *Personally I tend to agree with that statement. *



"I tend to agree.." Why, other than applying some form of preconceived belief system probably developed prior to training (but that might not be fair, I don't know you applied combat background)...other than that solar plexus strike which is from experience...and is there a difference if your hit in the high vs low in the solar plexus? 




> *Anyway these are my beliefs of what would happen; right or wrong this is what I think are the possibilities. *



What one "believes" has very little to do with reality of how the body reacts to blunt force trauma and other stimuli...

just my thoughts, jb:asian:


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## yilisifu

Over the years, two of my students and I started a sad little group known as the "black ball club."  To qualify for membership, one had to be struck in the groin hard enough to turn one's testicles black as a bowling ball (and about the same size, it seemed) - not a group you'd necessarily strike to join.

But....

One student dropped to the ground instantly when he has hit.

The other student seemed to be unaffected at first and went on to defeat his opponent in competition (he was in a tourney at the time).  He defeated a second opponent, then went into the locker room and passed out.

After being hit (the unexpected result of a mounting technique), I calmly walked over to a counter and gave the rest of the students more instructions.  Then I got the "wavies" and went into my office to sit down.....

   The point is that 2 out of 3 of us were completely functional for some time following the blow.......


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## TLH3rdDan

hummm see about the only way to find out would be to find a large group of morons who dont mind being hit as hard as you can in those areas to find out what happens... then you see what the majority of them did when hit then you have something to go by... but good luck finding that group lol


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## white belt

My disclaimer first:  No, I don't claim to be a badass! 

I have been in some "real" altercations and though some have dropped on contact, others did not immediately, when shoe toed in the groin.  I also have knocked people onto "queer street" and they were swiping at air, with eyes wide open in blind stare mode, just before passing out.  I am primarily a TKD man, but the value of the rapid fire assault method, in many MAs like my TKD style and Kenpo, etc. is, to me at least, essential sometimes as insurance when dealing with a determined assailant. The only things I truly bank on with body reaction is when hitting the groin, the hips reflex back, causing the head to come better into range.  When slamming a solid head shot, the head reflexes back opening the throat and bringing the groin forward.  If the head shot is around the temple area or above, the perp. sometimes crouches forward and goes to a knee or knees.  The hands in my experiences don't always follow predetermined paths of reaction.  One perp. was dealt a stunning temple shot and was seeing stars.  I assumed his hands were going to go high and cover, but he was too dazed or something and his arms went momentarily limp and dropped to his waist area.  I already had a round house headed for his ribs, which were now covered, and my shoe tip (through luck on my part) struck inside the fold of his left elbow joint causing a snapping sound.  A possible accidental arm break meant to be a torso shot.  A NOTE: I was NOT the initiator in any of these "disagreements".  So no character bashing please!  I share these things to see if others can also share reality experiences with the "body reactions concept".  I think it is good science, but imperfect at times.  I definitely subscribe to rapid fire techs. in succession.  Any certifiable law enforcement/military studies on this subject?  Personal experiences to prove or disprove the concept posted?

white belt


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## jfarnsworth

> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _
> *This is exactly what I mean...."well, so and so said that's what would happen"....Does that make it a fact in every instance?
> *



No, I'm just trying to give a general description from my exerperiences. The thought I left was another general description given from Mr. Planas. Everyone is going to react different to different strikes and how hard they are. No one is perfect nor will any technique become perfect. All it comes down to my friend is just plain training and a lot of it.


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## Blindside

Good point JB,

I've been nailed (hard!) with groin shots when sparring (especially those shots that lift the cup rather than hit it!) and when I'm going hard I usually have several seconds before the pain really sets in.  I don't have that instant reaction alot of people seem to expect.

My brother-in-law is a bouncer, he was hit so hard that he can no longer have children, he says he didn't "really" feel it until two hours after the fight.  

I don't like to depend on pain mechanisms to make a person move the way I want.

Lamont


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## Kenpo Yahoo

> Is there a breakdown out there that has been recently varified and could be listed here? Any surprising replies?



Mr. Mills hit a guy in the back with a palm heel so hard that it caused bruising on the guys abdomen, he dropped to the ground instantly.  Liquid Shockwave.

There is more to anatomical targeting than just trying to kick someone in the junk, or gouge out their eyes.  The body has all types of wonderful responses based on a number of different things, the location of the strike, angle of incidence, method of execution, etc.

For instance there are optimal locations to aim for when striking targets like the abdomen, and due to the construction of the diaphragm and the surrounding abdominal muscles, there are specific angles and methods of execution that will have a much greater effect. 

You shouldn't rely solely on the use of pain to try and CONTROL an opponent rather it should be a single tactic in your arsenal.  To use a movie title, you should be Fast and Furious.  Use pain, repetitive striking, psychological tactics to defeat an opponent.  Make them wish that they had never tried to attack you, because if you don't then the pissed off SOB will probably come back later or revenge (I know I would  )


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## Kenpo Yahoo

I recently recieved a pretty solid punch to the nose ( you know who you are Captain!!!:shrug:  )  I didn't reach up to grab my nose, I kept my hands out to try and divert anything else that came my way.  After a minute or two, my eyes began to water and my face started to feel like it had been flattened with a snow shovel.  It was an interesting experience, up until then I had never taken a direct hit to the face (I've been clipped in the jaw or taken shots to the chin or side of my head but never one right square to the nose).  It bled a little but my point is that the effects didn't kick in for a few moments after we slowed down the tempo a bit.  

Don't just cause pain and discomfort, create a desirable response and put them on the ground.


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## Sigung86

That's kind of why they call it the ideal phase.  It is pretty surprising what types of reactions you can get from strikes on different people.  There is, for instance, the old, reliable groin kick.

What very few people know is that the reason for the pain is that the omentum lines the testicular sack, or scrotum  The pain you are really feeling is a reflexive pain from the lining of the abdominal cavity, to wit ... The omentum... What is very much less known even than that ... There is .0000000000000999 percent of the male population who does not have the omentum lining in the scrotum thus ... You may literally kick the attacker's testacles into his lungs and he will not feel pain.

A much better and often overlooked alternative is to place a well aimed kick into the lower abdomen, just slightly over the top of the pelvic arch or crest.  This will, essentially, provide nearly the same amount of damage/pain, as it were, and is much more reliable, in that you are also creating trauma to the attacker's central or prime meridian.  There are many other benefits that are derived from this placement.   

Just some thoughts.

Dan


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## Seig

> _Originally posted by TLH3rdDan _
> *hummm see about the only way to find out would be to find a large group of morons who dont mind being hit as hard as you can in those areas to find out what happens... then you see what the majority of them did when hit then you have something to go by... but good luck finding that group lol *


YOu assemble the group, and I will assemble and head the group of strikers and note takers.


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## Chronuss

when we spar over at the college, there's always twenty guys that wanna throw that hardest, fastest round kick to your chest that they possibly can.  unfortunately, the twenty guys couldn't get their foot above their waist if they were lying on the ground and raised their legs...  so a round kick to the groin is inevitable, of which I've received a few.  the pain isn't immediate, it's more of a lingering feeling that filters up to the chest, but boy, does it suck.


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## TLH3rdDan

> YOu assemble the group, and I will assemble and head the group of strikers and note takers.



hummm ok... :asian:  of course we could see if we could do it the old japanese way and use prisoners lol... i wonder who i would have to write a letter too? i mean we could use death row inmates and life sentence inmates that way if we acidently killed any of them in the process we would at least be helping the government out a little. ill look into it... its kind of interesting actually


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## TLH3rdDan

ok first i guess we need to determine how many subjects we would need.... 20? 30? 40? 100? and then im assuming we would want to try different sizes ages builds races and sexes? then what would we want to test on them? and how often would we need to refresh the group since they would be pretty well trashed after the first round...


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## jeffkyle

> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _
> *In general there is a belief that based on a particular stike the body will react a particular way. We believe this because that is how the technique is written and taught. When's the last time these theories were checked to make sure those responses are still valid? Generally speaking what does the body do when...
> 
> Kicked in the groin
> poked in the eye
> hit in the lower solar plexus
> hit in the higher solar plexus
> hit in the kidney
> chopped in the neck, etc...
> 
> Is there a breakdown out there that has been recently varified and could be listed here? Any surprising replies? One that comes to mind is where Doc always says someone hit in the balls won't drop immediately. Just curious, because now in many schools they are having the person respond to an attack by "putting their hands where they were just hit" as the correct response. Is that always what is going to happen? Who said? If you kicked in the knee are you going to reach down for it, or start hopping on the other foot to remove the pressure or just fall? Then how does that reaction change based on angle of entry? Should reactions to attacks be taught as a section unto themselves?
> 
> jb:asian: *



Personally I believe that each person WILL react differently to any strike.  You may be able to kick one guy in the groin and him drop immediately, and you may do the same kick to another guy and he will just stand there and smile (probably before he commences to use you as a punching bag for a while).  I have kicked someone in the groin before and he just winced a little and came after me (so much for one strike knockdown or out).  
The good thing that I get out of Kenpo is that I don't believe that ANY ONE strike will have the intended effect on ANYONE.  So therefore it makes me try to learn how to continue the flow of motion and Graft anything together that is necessary to complete the intended task.  Me being a smaller guy, I can NEVER have the idea of one strike is all that is needed.  
If they react to a strike the way I intend...great!  If not, I hope I am prepared to work around that situation and still have the same effect on the opponent.
Everyone is different...some stronger some weaker...some luckier some not so lucky....


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## Doc

> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _
> *That's kind of why they call it the ideal phase.  It is pretty surprising what types of reactions you can get from strikes on different people.  There is, for instance, the old, reliable groin kick.
> 
> What very few people know is that the reason for the pain is that the omentum lines the testicular sack, or scrotum  The pain you are really feeling is a reflexive pain from the lining of the abdominal cavity, to wit ... The omentum... What is very much less known even than that ... There is .0000000000000999 percent of the male population who does not have the omentum lining in the scrotum thus ... You may literally kick the attacker's testacles into his lungs and he will not feel pain.
> 
> A much better and often overlooked alternative is to place a well aimed kick into the lower abdomen, just slightly over the top of the pelvic arch or crest.  This will, essentially, provide nearly the same amount of damage/pain, as it were, and is much more reliable, in that you are also creating trauma to the attacker's central or prime meridian.  There are many other benefits that are derived from this placement.
> 
> Just some thoughts.
> 
> Dan *



Excuse me. My balls are black, and I haven't even been kicked. What's up with that?


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## Doc

> _Originally posted by jeffkyle _
> *Personally I believe that each person WILL react differently to any strike.  You may be able to kick one guy in the groin and him drop immediately, and you may do the same kick to another guy and he will just stand there and smile (probably before he commences to use you as a punching bag for a while).  I have kicked someone in the groin before and he just winced a little and came after me (so much for one strike knockdown or out).
> The good thing that I get out of Kenpo is that I don't believe that ANY ONE strike will have the intended effect on ANYONE.  So therefore it makes me try to learn how to continue the flow of motion and Graft anything together that is necessary to complete the intended task.  Me being a smaller guy, I can NEVER have the idea of one strike is all that is needed.
> If they react to a strike the way I intend...great!  If not, I hope I am prepared to work around that situation and still have the same effect on the opponent.
> Everyone is different...some stronger some weaker...some luckier some not so lucky.... *



There seems to be an assumption here that all reactions to strikes are mechanically physical in nature. Chew on that.

Great job JB. Keepem' on their toes thinking. I love the smart guys.


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## Brother John

:erg: :hammer: :mst: 

I can't believe you went there!
Glad you did....
just can believe it.


 :rofl:  
Your brother
John


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## Doc

> _Originally posted by jeffkyle _
> *Personally I believe that each person WILL react differently to any strike.  You may be able to kick one guy in the groin and him drop immediately, and you may do the same kick to another guy and he will just stand there and smile (probably before he commences to use you as a punching bag for a while).  I have kicked someone in the groin before and he just winced a little and came after me (so much for one strike knockdown or out).
> The good thing that I get out of Kenpo is that I don't believe that ANY ONE strike will have the intended effect on ANYONE.  So therefore it makes me try to learn how to continue the flow of motion and Graft anything together that is necessary to complete the intended task.  Me being a smaller guy, I can NEVER have the idea of one strike is all that is needed.
> If they react to a strike the way I intend...great!  If not, I hope I am prepared to work around that situation and still have the same effect on the opponent.
> Everyone is different...some stronger some weaker...some luckier some not so lucky.... *



In commercial or motion based Kenpo that is called an, "Assumption of Failure." You have already concluded it won't work so you just rapidly move on to the next move. the problem is it's a slippery slope. If you weren't skilled enough to make the first couple of moves work, what makes you think the next two will?


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## Hollywood1340

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *Excuse me. My balls are black, and I haven't even been kicked. What's up with that? *



Come to think of it, so are mine, What is up with that?


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## jfarnsworth

> _Originally posted by Hollywood1340 _
> *Come to think of it, so are mine, What is up with that? *




Um, mine aren't come to think of it. _"scratching my head."_  That's a little odd maybe I should go to the doctor or something. :rofl:


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## Doc

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *Um, mine aren't come to think of it. "scratching my head."  That's a little odd maybe I should go to the doctor or something. :rofl: *


Is that "Ball Challenged?"


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## ikenpo

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *Um, mine aren't come to think of it. "scratching my head."  That's a little odd maybe I should go to the doctor or something. :rofl: *



I'm guessing there was no pun intended...huh?

jb:rofl:


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## jfarnsworth

> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _
> *I'm guessing there was no pun intended...huh?
> 
> jb:rofl: *



No, none at all guys. I was just trying to joke with you all here.


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## jfarnsworth

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *Is that "Ball Challenged?" *



I only wish that was the problem:rofl: . Actually 3 kids later and well I think I hit all 3 on the first shot. No practice and then many doctor/hospital bills later.  That's another story.


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## Sigung86

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *Excuse me. My balls are black, and I haven't even been kicked. What's up with that? *



Mine are too, and neither have I!!!!  Now YOU tell Me what's up with that!!!!  Or is it all the Tracy's I've been doing all these years?

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Dan


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## Seig

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *Excuse me. My balls are black, and I haven't even been kicked.  *


 That is just way too much information!:lol:
May I suggest you seek out a good MD? :rofl:


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## JD_Nelson

Doc,

With all your posts and how informing they are..........


THAT was too much information.


Sincerely

JD


ps.   I have been reading the forums for about a yeahr and a half now and i almost had a no touch knock out from laughter!!!


Thanks for the laugh.  I am almost tempted to use that as a quote for each of my posts. Giving you credit of course!!


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## jeffkyle

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *In commercial or motion based Kenpo that is called an, "Assumption of Failure." You have already concluded it won't work so you just rapidly move on to the next move. the problem is it's a slippery slope. If you weren't skilled enough to make the first couple of moves work, what makes you think the next two will? *



Maybe the first move will work.  If it does, GREAT!  If not, and you have trained that the first move WILL work....then what?  Wait until you get hit then try that first move again?  Maybe it will work the next time?  
There are no guarantees...no matter who you are.


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## Jill666

At least there were'nt any allusions to "blue balls".

Re: moves not working...

Well it's good to have a certain assumption of failure I suppose so when the guy does not drop to his knees howling with pain, you do not freeze. Just last night my training partner told a story where he was kicked full in the nuts and didn't drop- but he was pretty enraged and beat the crap out of the offender. 

I'd rather take out the knee if I can, in as crippling a fashion as possible. Then ribs, jaw, nose, hmmm...

The one time I got grabbed from behind I went into "Rotating Destruction". First blow, elbow to nose. After that crunch, he dropped to his knees, yes, howling with pain. I didn't get to do the rest of the technique. I guess it doesn't work, huh?:samurai:


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## Doc

> _Originally posted by jeffkyle _
> *Maybe the first move will work.  If it does, GREAT!  If not, and you have trained that the first move WILL work....then what?  Wait until you get hit then try that first move again?  Maybe it will work the next time?
> There are no guarantees...no matter who you are. *



 The problem is the "Assumption of Failure" becomes a crutch. "If it doesn't work, I'll just move on." Students should be taught effective applications first. In our curriculum they are taught to "Survive The Initial Assault." If you can't make the first move reasonably successful, there is no reason to learn the next application in that technique. Unfortunately most teach techniques "as a unit," and then confuse the crap out of students by sharing infinite "what if scenarios" before they have learned anything at all. An application is no better than it weakest link, especially if it's that first move. If you are not effective immediately, you won't get to the rest no matter how "skilled" you think you are.

Part of this problem in the commercial arena is created by voluminous material, and impatient students who pressure teachers for "more material" for advancement, creating a "quantity over quality" atmosphere. Instructors who are concerned about the impact on their revenue stream must retain students and promote within what the student sometimes feels is a "reasonable" time.

Someone coined the phrase "not overkill, but over skilled." Ed Parker laughed about that one and even used it himself to defend his motion concept even though he didn't really subscribe to its off-the-cuff philosophy. Parker used to say, "Actually, if you were truly skilled, you wouldn't need all those moves. If you get to the end of some of these techniques, you should give up kenpo and study track."

In our "Assumption of Success" concept, the student is simply not allowed to accept unsuccessful execution in the initial stages of an application (within reason for course level), therefore the technique is "built" section by section to be successful.

Of course no one is perfect, but by our curriculum design, all applications at all stages must be successful, and as your skill level rises as you move up in course material, you should need less and less of the mechanisms (of most applications) to terminate a situation. However anyone can have a "bad day" and should that occur the entire successfully proven mechanism is still available.

The difference is a "mindset" based on "success" first, and "failure" second, supported by instruction that supports that perspective. I've seen too many students (and vicariously their teachers) with no understanding of basic stances, footwork, and blocks, executing lengthy techniques that have less of a chance of success than some untrained "street" person. Unfortunately, this is not just in "Kenpo," but in Americanized Commercial Martial Arts in general.

I did a lecture for a very successful organization where I asked everyone to "step back into a fighting stance with your right foot forward and block with your right hand, a left roundhouse punch to your head, (setting up "Sword of Destruction) without telling them anything else. Everyone had a different interpretation of the "stance," and not one "blocked" in the same manner as another. Yet when I said do "Sword of Destruction," they were stepping, blocking, kicking, chopping, and covering like mad making menacing faces with matching kiai's. Not one of them moved the same way. Oh by the way, the ranks went all the way up to 5th degree.

The first thing visitors to our main campus learn, is everyone moves in the same manner, (you know like in the old Chinese movies with 300 people in a outdoor class training in unison). There is a reason for that. "Assumption of Success."


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## GaryM

As is seen by the posts in this thread there is no standard response to  any given strike. There was a miner in Australia near the turn of the last century that had a 1 inch iron tamping rod blowen through his head. It entered under his chin and exited out the top of his head. He recovered and was funtcional in less than a month and lived for several years more. (Never returned to work, it changed his personality and made him paranoid and delusional and he eventually went insane). Blows are cumulative in effect. The punch that knocks out the boxer in the 12 th round may only have momentarily stunned him in the first round. Which brings us to the pressure points.  The stated effects that striking a point in a certain direction has are not absolutes by anymeans. But there WILL be an effect. The brain is linear in it's thinking. It handles one "thought" at a time.  The pressure points are receptors that send messages to the brain. Weather or not the brain acts upon these messages or to what extent is not what is REALLY important to the martial artist. What IS important is that the brain has to 'take the message'. Kind of like when you wait thru a long line and when you get to the clerk they have to keep stopping to answer the phone, even if they ignore the message they still stopped taking care of you. Most of the vital points are effected by or have effects on other points. Example : Percardium 6 located about a palms width above the crease in the wrist (inner arm) is sort of a universal 'set up' point that makes all other points more vulnerable. Stomach 9 is located level with the Adam's apple over the cartoid artery. This is probably the closest thing to a 'gauranteed' KO point and is very capable of killing. ( It is even a delayed death point being that a hard blow with adverse qi can rupture the lining of the artery causing it to deteriorate and if a piece travels to the brain it can cause an anuerism, or so I've read). There is a baroreceptor here that the brain uses to monitor the blood pressure. A blow to this point causes the brain to think that there is life threatening high blood pressure and it shuts down the heart, causing loss of conscience(KO).  There are three set up points for St 9. Percardium 6, heart 5 and lung 8. You can cover all three with your hand at the same time. Thus you see blocking a punch with an inward block at the wrist followed by a shuto (chop) to the neck is devestating, as in delayed sword. So the block to Pc6 makes the message from the groin area kick more urgent and the groin area kick (Cv 2 3 or 4) makes the brain 'answer the phone' for a brief instant, then the shuto to St 9 turns the lights out.  Of course this is in addition to the obvious physical effects, such as the block keeping you from getting hit in the mush and the kick stopping the forward progress by thrusting the hips back, ect, etc.  The combinations that work well and are practicle in a given situation are contained in the techniques of Kenpo .
  Disclaimer: maybe I'm full of s**t.  Gary


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## Doc

> _Originally posted by GaryM _
> *As is seen by the posts in this thread there is no standard response to  any given strike. There was a miner in Australia near the turn of the last century that had a 1 inch iron tamping rod blowen through his head. It entered under his chin and exited out the top of his head. He recovered and was funtcional in less than a month and lived for several years more. (Never returned to work, it changed his personality and made him paranoid and delusional and he eventually went insane). Blows are cumulative in effect. The punch that knocks out the boxer in the 12 th round may only have momentarily stunned him in the first round. Which brings us to the pressure points.  The stated effects that striking a point in a certain direction has are not absolutes by anymeans. But there WILL be an effect. The brain is linear in it's thinking. It handles one "thought" at a time.  The pressure points are receptors that send messages to the brain. Weather or not the brain acts upon these messages or to what extent is not what is REALLY important to the martial artist. What IS important is that the brain has to 'take the message'. Kind of like when you wait thru a long line and when you get to the clerk they have to keep stopping to answer the phone, even if they ignore the message they still stopped taking care of you. Most of the vital points are effected by or have effects on other points. Example : Percardium 6 located about a palms width above the crease in the wrist (inner arm) is sort of a universal 'set up' point that makes all other points more vulnerable. Stomach 9 is located level with the Adam's apple over the cartoid artery. This is probably the closest thing to a 'gauranteed' KO point and is very capable of killing. ( It is even a delayed death point being that a hard blow with adverse qi can rupture the lining of the artery causing it to deteriorate and if a piece travels to the brain it can cause an anuerism, or so I've read). There is a baroreceptor here that the brain uses to monitor the blood pressure. A blow to this point causes the brain to think that there is life threatening high blood pressure and it shuts down the heart, causing loss of conscience(KO).  There are three set up points for St 9. Percardium 6, heart 5 and lung 8. You can cover all three with your hand at the same time. Thus you see blocking a punch with an inward block at the wrist followed by a shuto (chop) to the neck is devestating, as in delayed sword. So the block to Pc6 makes the message from the groin area kick more urgent and the groin area kick (Cv 2 3 or 4) makes the brain 'answer the phone' for a brief instant, then the shuto to St 9 turns the lights out.  Of course this is in addition to the obvious physical effects, such as the block keeping you from getting hit in the mush and the kick stopping the forward progress by thrusting the hips back, ect, etc.  The combinations that work well and are practicle in a given situation are contained in the techniques of Kenpo .
> Disclaimer: maybe I'm full of s**t.  Gary *



Not completely.   But you must execute from proper anatomical mechanics as well as create the proper Negative Posture to create the proper involuntary response that makes applications function without pain being a factor.

The movements are contained in kenpo, but "how" is not, and never has been codified.


----------



## bob919

against someone on pcp none of those will work all that well trust me kicks in the balls to nothing except make him jump a foot or so  i also through a very powerful puch to the solar plexus i missed broke his sternum (big crack) and he flew a little waybut he kept coming he was breathing very heavily so i struck him in the plexus a couple of times with the pheonix fist then ran; cause a fight like this would only end with me killing him or vice versa. also this guy was about 300lbs but he was so amazingly strong i think it was cause of pcp but that was the worst fight i have been in far,far worse than 2 on1 3on 1 or even 4 on 1 

moral of the story: get yourself some pcp


----------



## Doc

> _Originally posted by bob919 _
> *against someone on pcp none of those will work all that well *



None of what YOU know works all that well.


----------



## Jill666

It's true that pcp, along with adrelaline, is a great anesthetic, but if you need to stop someone, you must go as far as is necessary. They might not feel pain then, but you cannot walk on a smashed knee; you cannot punch with a broken arm. 

If it isn't absolutely necessary and you try to take on someone who's high & out of control, well you asked for it.


----------



## TLH3rdDan

hummm i guess no one liked my idea except seig... well if i have any luck getting a group together ill let you guys know the results


----------



## Arithon

There are known reactions to strikes but the degree of response will always vary from person to person.

I know the response for some strikes because I have been hit and hit others with these strikes in training.

About the ST9 strike, it is supposed to work against people who are high.

I think there is a big difference between preparing for failure and expecting failure.  When you strike you make sure you are in a position to strike again.  Simply thinking that you've trained hard and therefore the strike must work first time every time is going to get you hurt.


----------



## bob919

yeh when someones on pcp you have to break something legs for example


----------



## Doc

> _Originally posted by bob919 _
> *yeh when someones on pcp you have to break something legs for example *



NO. YOU do! It is important you not assign your own limitations to others, and instead perhaps as a suggestion - maybe ask a question or two. But, what do I know? (rhetorical)


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## Johnathan Napalm

Ok. I'll ask then. What would your advice be in regarding neutralizing someone who is under the influence of narcotics?


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## bob919

actually i was joking it would take a hell of a force to break a leg you might be able to dislocate a knee cap though they couldn't run on that


----------



## Ronin

> _Originally posted by TLH3rdDan _
> *hummm ok... :asian:  of course we could see if we could do it the old japanese way and use prisoners lol... i wonder who i would have to write a letter too? i mean we could use death row inmates and life sentence inmates that way if we acidently killed any of them in the process we would at least be helping the government out a little. ill look into it... its kind of interesting actually *


   That would be a good idea that way we'd save a million dollars an inmate.


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## yilisifu

Terrorists make fine training aids.


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## Johnathan Napalm

> _Originally posted by yilisifu _
> *Terrorists make fine training aids. *



Just like the Spetznaz used to make full use of the prisoners from the gulags as training partners....  lol


----------



## D.Cobb

> _Chop to the neck:_  Well this will vary on are you talking about Delayed Sword, or Five swords? One they are standing erect the other their already bent over. [/B]



If done correctly, they will either pass out, or become extremely uncoordinated, for a few seconds.


----------



## D.Cobb

> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _
> *In general there is a belief that based on a particular stike the body will react a particular way. We believe this because that is how the technique is written and taught. When's the last time these theories were checked to make sure those responses are still valid? Generally speaking what does the body do when...
> 
> Kicked in the groin
> poked in the eye
> hit in the lower solar plexus
> hit in the higher solar plexus
> hit in the kidney
> chopped in the neck, etc...
> 
> Is there a breakdown out there that has been recently varified and could be listed here? Any surprising replies? One that comes to mind is where Doc always says someone hit in the balls won't drop immediately. Just curious, because now in many schools they are having the person respond to an attack by "putting their hands where they were just hit" as the correct response. Is that always what is going to happen? Who said? If you kicked in the knee are you going to reach down for it, or start hopping on the other foot to remove the pressure or just fall? Then how does that reaction change based on angle of entry? Should reactions to attacks be taught as a section unto themselves?
> 
> jb:asian: *



There is concept that is taught in some circles, known as PDPR,
Pre-Determined Pain Response. This concept states that for every specific strike causing pain, there is a specific response that the body gives, in an effort to escape or minimize the pain.

I am still fairly new to this concept myself, but I will endeavour to show you what I mean.



> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _*
> Kicked in the groin
> *


The knees buckle, the pelvic region shoots backward and the head comes forward and down.



> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _*
> poked in the eye
> *


The head will shoot straight back, possibly on a slight angle with the affected eye pulled away from the attacker. The hands will come up with 1 of 2 responses. Either they will go toward the attacker or they will attempt to cover the affected eye.



> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _
> *hit in the lower solar plexus
> *


I believe the area you are referring to here is the area known as the xiphoid process(sp?). It is the area that Bruce Lee used to target with his 1" punch. The body's natural response when attacked here is to throw itself backward away from the attack. A lesser known advantage of striking this point correctly is that the adrenal dump that the body is going through whilst in the altercation will be negated. That is to say that fight will go right out of your opponent, allowing you to take whatever steps are necessary to get away.



> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _*
> hit in the higher solar plexus
> *



First and foremost is when struck right, this point will cause your opponent to be winded. This will cause his head to come forward and down a little, and cause him to back up whilst sucking for air, like a wounded fish.



> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _*
> hit in the kidney
> *


Will cause him to arch foward, on a slight angle bringing the effected kidney forward. Most likely his hand will go to the affected kidney.



> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _*
> chopped in the neck, etc...
> *



When the chop or hammerfist to the neck is done right, your opponent will either become quite uncoordinated, or pass out. When done with force on the right angle, this can be quite devestating in its effects.


I hope this answers your question, or more importantly, makes you think of new ones.

--Dave

:asian:


----------



## D.Cobb

> _Originally posted by Chronuss _
> *when we spar over at the college, there's always twenty guys that wanna throw that hardest, fastest round kick to your chest that they possibly can.  unfortunately, the twenty guys couldn't get their foot above their waist if they were lying on the ground and raised their legs...  so a round kick to the groin is inevitable, of which I've received a few.  the pain isn't immediate, it's more of a lingering feeling that filters up to the chest, but boy, does it suck. *



The pain from a groin shot varies depending on the angle of the attack. If you are struck front on, it is painful but you will find the effects are more according to scare value, or pucker factor. If the strike comes from under, toward the back on an angle, the pain will cause a reaction, but the end effect may be less than you'd expect.

If, however, the strike comes straight up from under, giving you two little pancakes(my eyes are watering just writing this), against the bottom of your pelvic bone, then you are in for a world of hurt....

I am such a bad ***, if you did it to me, I guarantee you that I would umm cry and curl up in a ball on the ground and cry and I would call for my mummy and I would cry.....

--Dave
did I mention that I would cry?

:shrug:


----------



## Kenpo Yahoo

D Cobb

I have to agree with your analysis of the PDPR.  I've seen each of these strikes done with varying degrees of force and the results are quite interesting.  Another variable would be the angle of attack.  Mr. Mills has hit various people with the "kidney" shot.  Striking upward and inward caused the man to arch backwards and step forward slightly the arms stretched backwards to relieve the pressure.  Striking downward, he "tapped" a guy and dropped him directly to his knees.  One strike and the guy was down (for some time I might add), and it wasn't at but maybe 50% power, it was just about proper body mechanics.



> Chop to the neck: Well this will vary on are you talking about Delayed Sword, or Five swords? One they are standing erect the other their already bent over.



I was taught to use the borrowed force (i.e. your opponents reaction from the groin or thigh kick) for your outward chop.  If you wait until the guys completely bent over and just hanging their clutching his junk, then you've lost alot of useful energy.  in Five swords you are making use of your opponents forward momentum and striking to the neck (at least that's the way we do it).  You should be trying to harnass as much energy as you can, not just expending your own.  You know meet force with force, like these two mugs hitting each other.   :cheers:


----------



## Steve Howard

> _Originally posted by D.Cobb _
> *The pain from a groin shot varies depending on the angle of the attack. If you are struck front on, it is painful but you will find the effects are more according to scare value, or pucker factor. If the strike comes from under, toward the back on an angle, the pain will cause a reaction, but the end effect may be less than you'd expect.
> 
> If, however, the strike comes straight up from under, giving you two little pancakes(my eyes are watering just writing this), against the bottom of your pelvic bone, then you are in for a world of hurt....
> 
> I am such a bad ***, if you did it to me, I guarantee you that I would umm cry and curl up in a ball on the ground and cry and I would call for my mummy and I would cry.....
> 
> --Dave
> did I mention that I would cry?
> 
> :shrug: *



D.Cobb,
I'd cry too, man.  LOL!!!


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _*
> There is a belief that when we strike the body it will react a particular way. We believe this because that is how the technique is written and taught. When's the last time these theories were checked to make sure those responses are still valid?
> jb:asian: *



Excellent Idea..........  Are you volunteering for the task?  I (and probably several others) would love to know how "your" body would react (generally speaking) from one of my strikes when:

Kicked in the groin
poked in the eye
hit in the lower solar plexus
hit in the higher solar plexus
hit in the kidney
chopped in the neck, etc...



> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _*
> Is there a breakdown out there that has been recently verified and could be listed here? Any surprising replies?
> jb:asian: *



We could do a service to this forum by supplying such a verified list!!  



> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _*
> One question that comes to my mind is where Doc always says when someone is hit in the balls, they won't drop immediately.
> jb:asian: *



Did he happen to also tell you that when HE hits you there... there will be "NOTHING TO DROP" because he has "crushed everything" for 10 square inches!!!

:rofl:


----------



## Steve Howard

JB,
   don't know about you, but I was "lucky" enough to have instructors that actually hit me.  Believe me, when the techniques are done correctly, your opponent will react exactly the way you expect him to react. Seeing may be believing, but feeling is the begining of knowing.  

--Steve Howard
www.kenporaw.bravepages.com


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Steve Howard_*
> Seeing may be believing, but feeling is the begining of knowing. --Steve Howard
> www.kenporaw.bravepages.com *



:rofl: 
No...... the saying goes........
"To HEAR is to doubt,
To SEE is to be deceived,
But to FEEL is to Believe"!!!
:rofl: 

:asian:


----------



## D.Cobb

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *
> 
> Did he happen to also tell you that when HE hits you there... there will be "NOTHING TO DROP" because he has "crushed everything" for 10 square inches!!!
> 
> :rofl: *



Whew that's OK then. I've still got another 5 or 6 left over.........


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


----------



## ikenpo

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *Excellent Idea..........  Are you volunteering for the task?  I (and probably several others) would love to know how "your" body would react (generally speaking) from one of my strikes when:
> 
> Kicked in the groin
> poked in the eye
> hit in the lower solar plexus
> hit in the higher solar plexus
> hit in the kidney
> chopped in the neck, etc...
> *



No volunteers here... 

But let me guess Oooooowwwwwww, help, I can't see...., Ooofff, ugghh, Shheeeee, THUMP!!!! (the sound of hitting the ground after the chop)...




> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *
> We could do a service to this forum by supplying such a verified list!!  *



Uh yeah, I don't think so...



> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *
> Did he happen to also tell you that when HE hits you there... there will be "NOTHING TO DROP" because he has "crushed everything" for 10 square inches!!! :rofl: *



I could tell that last time I visited him..

jb :asian:


----------



## ikenpo

> _Originally posted by Steve Howard _
> *JB,
> don't know about you, but I was "lucky" enough to have instructors that actually hit me.  Believe me, when the techniques are done correctly, your opponent will react exactly the way you expect him to react. Seeing may be believing, but feeling is the begining of knowing.
> 
> --Steve Howard
> www.kenporaw.bravepages.com *



Well,

I suppose I've been "lucky" over the last 17 yrs as well. But in each instance it was in a sterile environment except when we would do our Kenpo Brawl drills. At that point anything could happen. So your instructor kicked your ***, while you played stone statue, so you think you know exactly how an adrinaline pumping, dope head, predator is going to act when you execute your Kenpo under extreme prejudice...maybe you will? 

But my original point, which was lost, is exactly what you said, "Believe me"...

Why should I? 

Give me hard, methodical evidence other than it's what "you did" while standing there taking it. 

Like you said, "I don't know about you"..and I don't. 

What guys call contact in Ohio might be considered tickling in Texas. If you've been to Texas, then you know what I mean. 

Respectfully, jb :asian:


----------



## ikenpo

> _Originally posted by D.Cobb _
> *There is concept that is taught in some circles, known as PDPR,
> Pre-Determined Pain Response. This concept states that for every specific strike causing pain, there is a specific response that the body gives, in an effort to escape or minimize the pain.
> 
> I am still fairly new to this concept myself, but I will endeavour to show you what I mean.
> 
> 
> The knees buckle, the pelvic region shoots backward and the head comes forward and down.
> 
> 
> The head will shoot straight back, possibly on a slight angle with the affected eye pulled away from the attacker. The hands will come up with 1 of 2 responses. Either they will go toward the attacker or they will attempt to cover the affected eye.
> 
> 
> I believe the area you are referring to here is the area known as the xiphoid process(sp?). It is the area that Bruce Lee used to target with his 1" punch. The body's natural response when attacked here is to throw itself backward away from the attack. A lesser known advantage of striking this point correctly is that the adrenal dump that the body is going through whilst in the altercation will be negated. That is to say that fight will go right out of your opponent, allowing you to take whatever steps are necessary to get away.
> 
> 
> 
> First and foremost is when struck right, this point will cause your opponent to be winded. This will cause his head to come forward and down a little, and cause him to back up whilst sucking for air, like a wounded fish.
> 
> 
> Will cause him to arch foward, on a slight angle bringing the effected kidney forward. Most likely his hand will go to the affected kidney.
> 
> 
> 
> When the chop or hammerfist to the neck is done right, your opponent will either become quite uncoordinated, or pass out. When done with force on the right angle, this can be quite devestating in its effects.
> 
> 
> I hope this answers your question, or more importantly, makes you think of new ones.
> 
> --Dave
> 
> :asian: *



Thanks Dave, 

All of these were pretty basic responses that I'm familiar with, but my point was to show me where these concepts were imperically researched or tested. Who are the keepers of the PDPR, Pre-Determined Pain Response book. Can I see how many real life situations they researched and interviewed recently to see how they came up with these "pre-determinations" or does it just "make sense" that they will react that way? Also I never mentioned the "exact" weapon, but you gave a general response for each which leads me to believe that they/you are just following the same generic non-updated beliefs....I'll give you an example below.. 

In regards to the solar plexus question I wasn't speaking of the sternum or the xiphoid process at the end of it. I was speaking of the solar plexus and how striking at different ranges, positions and angles (upward, downward, horizontal, circular, torqing, etc) and at various heights with various weapons (hammer, backfist, phoenix fist, middle knuckle, forearm, open hand, etc) and using various manuvers and principles to enter (backup mass, borrowed force, fitting strikes, speed, etc..) and other "considerations" affect that "pre-determined" outcome...

Respectfully, jb:asian:


----------



## Steve Howard

> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _
> *Well,
> 
> I suppose I've been "lucky" over the last 17 yrs as well. But in each instance it was in a sterile environment except when we would do our Kenpo Brawl drills. At that point anything could happen. So your instructor kicked your ***, while you played stone statue, so you think you know exactly how an adrinaline pumping, dope head, predator is going to act when you execute your Kenpo under extreme prejudice...maybe you will?
> 
> But my original point, which was lost, is exactly what you said, "Believe me"...
> 
> Why should I?
> 
> Give me hard, methodical evidence other than it's what "you did" while standing there taking it.
> 
> Like you said, "I don't know about you"..and I don't.
> 
> What guys call contact in Ohio might be considered tickling in Texas. If you've been to Texas, then you know what I mean.
> 
> Respectfully, jb :asian: *



First,

I'm not sure why jb felt he needed to turn my post into a personal attack.  If that's the way I came off--then I apologize.  I also thank him for including Mr. Jay T. Will in his "fallen warriors" section of his website.

That being said... my lineage comes directly thru Mr. Will.  He would have given you all the contact you could handle, and we continue that tradition in his schools.  Don't assume that because you act the part of "stone statue" in your classes that that it is the way that everyone trains--it isn't.  I've also been fortunate to "touch hands" with some of the heaviest hitters in our business, including Huk Planas, Martin Wheeler, Al Tracy and both of the Flores Brothers.  After feeling their power, I don't have any concern over what you think you or Texas could offer me.

I've also been "tested" inside and outside of my studio by students and strangers alike, and my training has never let me down.  In particular, Spinning from the Sun and Striking Asp work exactly the way they're supposed to.  If you had been fortunate enough to spend time with some of your seniors you would know that the men who trained personally with Mr. Parker (at least the younger Mr. Parker) did indeed test these reactions and that their training sessions bore little resemblance to what you see in most commercialized dojos today.  As Mr. Will used to say when recalling  his lessons with Mr. Parker: "The lesson wasn't over until he dumped you in the fireplace or something got broken."  The human body hasn't signifigantly evolved in the past 40 years, so why do you think that the work done by these men is no longer valid?

As far as the doped-up assailant not responding to pain, etc.  Mr. Parker considered this when designing the techniques and employing the targets that he chose.  It's also the reason that angular footwook is stressed in our system.  A dope head might not feel a broken nose, but his eyes will still water.  And a good choke doesn't rely on pain at all.  

You don't have to "believe me", but you didn't need to insult me or my state either.  Unlike your closing, the body of your response was anything but respectful and reflects poorly on someone with your supposed level of training.


----------



## ikenpo

> _Originally posted by Steve Howard _
> *First,
> 
> I'm not sure why jb felt he needed to turn my post into a personal attack.  If that's the way I came off--then I apologize.  I also thank him for including Mr. Jay T. Will in his "fallen warriors" section of his website.
> 
> That being said... my lineage comes directly thru Mr. Will.  He would have given you all the contact you could handle, and we continue that tradition in his schools.  Don't assume that because you act the part of "stone statue" in your classes that that it is the way that everyone trains--it isn't.  I've also been fortunate to "touch hands" with some of the heaviest hitters in our business, including Huk Planas, Martin Wheeler, Al Tracy and both of the Flores Brothers.  After feeling their power, I don't have any concern over what you think you or Texas could offer me.
> 
> I've also been "tested" inside and outside of my studio by students and strangers alike, and my training has never let me down.  In particular, Spinning from the Sun and Striking Asp work exactly the way they're supposed to.  If you had been fortunate enough to spend time with some of your seniors you would know that the men who trained personally with Mr. Parker (at least the younger Mr. Parker) did indeed test these reactions and that their training sessions bore little resemblance to what you see in most commercialized dojos today.  As Mr. Will used to say when recalling  his lessons with Mr. Parker: "The lesson wasn't over until he dumped you in the fireplace or something got broken."  The human body hasn't signifigantly evolved in the past 40 years, so why do you think that the work done by these men is no longer valid?
> 
> As far as the doped-up assailant not responding to pain, etc.  Mr. Parker considered this when designing the techniques and employing the targets that he chose.  It's also the reason that angular footwook is stressed in our system.  A dope head might not feel a broken nose, but his eyes will still water.  And a good choke doesn't rely on pain at all.
> 
> You don't have to "believe me", but you didn't need to insult me or my state either.  Unlike your closing, the body of your response was anything but respectful and reflects poorly on someone with your supposed level of training. *



My Friend, 

Relax, sometimes responses can come off a little more "raw" than intented. Particularly when your cursed with a biting sense of humor that has a mind of its own. My point on this old thread was simply that I felt the reactions to strikes need to be imperically re-examined (and possibly updated).  All the rest of the stuff was friendly banter. This forum is a place to learn, share and tease and pick on each other (without being too mean).

The only question I would ask from your response is why not re-examine? I don't think that is a slight on the originators teachings. But just one more topic to examine and look at from a non-traditionalist perspective. I agree that over the last 40 years the human anatomy hasn't made great strides, but people are more fit, more flexible, more athletic (except in Houston,TX where we have once again retained the crown as the fattest city, and that backup mass adds to the power of our shots (that's the part in neglected to include in the previous post)). Could this change some of the original responses? Maybe not from a control manipulation perspective, but possibly from a pain compliance perspective. 

I have a lot of respect for JT Will and how he exposed so many to Kenpo, and acknowledge that everyone has their short comings. Forgiveness is a virtue that is difficult to master and I don't know any of the politics involved with what happened to him so I prefer to let sleeping dogs lie, but acknowledge that he made solid contributions to Kenpo as a whole. Because I feel his information that I have (video of his tv shows in Ohio, both his books, magazines with him in Battle Star Galactica, magazines with articles on him and an obscure video of him teaching sparring drills and 2 man set in San Antonio, Tx shortly prior to this passing) I feel I have gotten a greater persective than some that never met him, like myself. All have added to my perspective on the system. I will always say that I think his Advanced Kenpo book is still one of the best "pictured" Kenpo technique books ever published to this day and holding strong 23 yrs later. The only JT Will student that I've ever seen on video is Brent Berry and he is very skilled and looks to be a banger.

Anyway, no offense intended and none was taken.

jb:asian:


----------



## Steve Howard

jb,
 thank you.  I likewise withdrawn any negative comments or assumptions made on my part.  Your last post shows the true character of kenpo.  Peace to you and continued success in your training.

Steve Howard


----------



## Goldendragon7

:asian:


----------



## Kenpo Yahoo

So from all the questions about reactions and requests for "empirical" evidence, can I safely assume that most you guys on here aren't actually testing this stuff out to see if it works?  

Last night I'm over at a friends house sparring with techs.  All of us are a slightly different build (skinny to stalky), height(5'9" -- 6'3", and weight (175--250lbs), so there was an excellent opportunity to experiment on different body types.  Afterall, isn't this how you learn?  How can you be confident that your training and knowledge is worth all the time and money you're spending if you never try it out?

Anyway, since we are all friends we don't much like the idea of taking soft tissue strikes.  Besides if that's all you know, then you are wasting your money.  Does this mean they aren't effective?  No, but I dropped three of the guys I hit to their knees with a solar plexus shot at about 50% power (hell I didn't even rack my hips to try and generate power).  The point is that you should be able to drop an attacker without having to poke him in the eyes, collapse his esophogus, or kick him in the nuts.  If you can't then you aren't learning effective kenpo.  

I hit the 6'1" 250  guy in the same spot with 50% power just like before and he didn't flinch.  So I employ all the mechanics to get more power and he slightly winces (75%).  So my options are hit with everything I've got just to prove a point, or use this as a learning experience.  

What did I learn?  I learned that until I understand the mechanics that are needed for that particular shot a little better, that I should only use this on people who aren't quite as thick.  This leaves the alternative of structural attacks (knees, ankles, jaw, head).  Even though we beat the crap out of each other and we're a little sore today, we each learned something new about our own abilities.  Such events either give you more confidece in your abilities or show you what you need to work on, and if your smart it does both.


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo_*
> I learned that until I understand the mechanics that are needed for that particular shot a little better, that I should only use this on people who aren't quite as thick.  This leaves the alternative of structural attacks (knees, ankles, jaw, head).
> *



Bravo..... Wise words thru experience!

:asian:


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## D.Cobb

> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _
> *Thanks Dave,
> 
> All of these were pretty basic responses that I'm familiar with, but my point was to show me where these concepts were imperically researched or tested. Who are the keepers of the PDPR, Pre-Determined Pain Response book. Can I see how many real life situations they researched and interviewed recently to see how they came up with these "pre-determinations" or does it just "make sense" that they will react that way? Also I never mentioned the "exact" weapon, but you gave a general response for each which leads me to believe that they/you are just following the same generic non-updated beliefs....I'll give you an example below..
> 
> Respectfully, jb:asian: *



Of course it makes sense that people will react that way...
Human beings haven't changed that much since the first poke in the eye was ever done.
Obviously there will always be exceptions to the rule, that's why we learn alternative options and follw up strikes and things like that, the just in cases and what ifs.





> *
> In regards to the solar plexus question I wasn't speaking of the sternum or the xiphoid process at the end of it. I was speaking of the solar plexus and how striking at different ranges, positions and angles (upward, downward, horizontal, circular, torqing, etc) and at various heights with various weapons (hammer, backfist, phoenix fist, middle knuckle, forearm, open hand, etc) and using various manuvers and principles to enter (backup mass, borrowed force, fitting strikes, speed, etc..) and other "considerations" affect that "pre-determined" outcome...
> *



Actually your original question regarding the solar plexus was .....



> * ...and is there a difference if your hit in the high vs low in the solar plexus? *



Truthfully, the only position you can hit the solar plexus is low, because most of it is up behind the sternum. I would be interested to know how you would hit the solar plexus with your fore arm, unless you know someone who has one that sticks out... 

Otherwise, you do raise a good point as to reactions to the different kinds of strikes, but I believe that the only way to get a different reaction would be to change direction. That is to say that I really don't think you would see a discernable difference between a hammer fist moving up on a 45 degree angle or a reverse elbow strike, but if you were to strike up with the hammer, and then use the pheonix eye downward on a 45deg angle, then yes! you would see a definate difference.

The thing is though, these reactions are still, Predetermined Pain Responses.

--Dave

:asian:


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## Doc

Well the idea of knowing what a person will do when they are struck in various ways is a god topic but unfortunately very, very complicated. When conceptually you rely wholly on pain as your predictor, absent what is called devastating blunt force trauma that in itself transfers significant kinetic energy to physically cause a bodily response, the answers are far less certain than perhaps we would like them to be. 

This is one of the reasons pain induced control mechanisms should never be wholly relied upon for successful applications in favor of instead, anatomical based mandates of proper execution.  Anytime you rely on pain, your technique is doomed to fail sooner or later. Whether it be in striking or manipulations of any kind. 

Pain if induced should always be a vicarious byproduct of your actions as much as possible. Other wise movement becomes superficial and requires a reliance on soft tension blunt force trauma for effectiveness by simply devastating the target in self defense applications. Something anyone without skill or martial teachings can do.

Much of this is as a results of Sporting applications dominating American Martial Arts and the emphasis being placed on sport training techniques which typically require power, and strength.

Some of you, (like JB in his visits), have heard me talk about reading Positive and Negative Body Posture. Although complicated at first without reference, when put in context of a well designed "Default Technique" (what some call "ideal")  it tends to work itself out with proper execution.

There is no part of the human body that you can move without having a significant effect on another part of the body, and/or structural integrity. Also how you move adds additional factors to the equation in determining and predicting the actual outcome and end result of your actions. This is why your actions should be designed around other than pain reliant applications.

The totally of the posture, weight distribution, mental focus, breathing, various tensions, even the direction youre looking, and even the time of day can significant change the results. The predictor is built into the reading of the posture that should be built into the Default Technique. This may or may not include a nerve cavity.

Put someone in a good Horse Stance. Feet parallel, weight evenly distributed, left hand hanging dead weight to your left side. Place their left hand palm inward over the solar plexus / zyphoid process.

As the person breathes naturally strike the person when they exhale on front of head of the shoulder on the side where the arm is hanging. Not too hard but enough to cause a physical reaction and take note.

Then turn the hand on the solar plexus just one quarter turn so that the thumb edge of the hand is resting against the solar plexus / zyphoid process, palm facing the ground and strike again with the same force. The reaction should be much greater with the same force.

Understand Im not there to check the posture so you may have to play with it, but you will find that a simple turn of the hand has a significant impact on the effectiveness of the simple strike to head of the shoulder. 

Im suggesting the strike be administered on the exhale because the myth is that kiai like breathing will negate to a certain extent the effects. The truth is that is only a small part of the equation.

How many times have you sparred with someone and got in a really good body shot that you thought would drop the person to their knees, and they just continued like nothing happened? Than perhaps on another occasion you were playing around and tapped someone with what you perceived was a light hit and they drop. So what was the difference?  E) All of the above. and the right answer is always, "It depends."


----------



## cdhall

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> * "It depends." *



This was the most important thing I learned in Honors Biology II in High School.  

I was going to mention it here.

But Doc is always talking about assumption of failure so I thought maybe we should illuminate our training habits a bit.  Here is some of the stuff that I've learned/observed in training:

1. Mr. Duffy will commonly exert a little extra force on part of a technique when teaching it for the first time to show you what the expected reaction should be.  I have "reacted properly" several times to his executing a techique.  I've seen him do it to others and I've taught this way myself.  This one example might be Pain Compliance, but recently I was teaching Grasp of Death and the armbar Dropped the attacker to her knees.  She then "got it" and now she loves that technique and the armbar. I don't know if it is just that move, but if you hit it right I'm not sure that I've seen it fail.  By this I mean that if you "hit it wrong" so that the armbar does not send your opponents head racing to the ground, Mr. Duffy in particular can come over and make it work like it is supposed to by "hitting it right" if  you see what I mean.

2. Last weekend Mr. Planas demonstrated this with Flashing Wings.  He said that the elbow below the Scapula is there to rock their head back so you could more easily handsword the neck. I tested it with 2 partners at "medium-slow" and it worked as advertised.

3. Mr. Planas went on to discuss Major and Minor strikes.  On a few Techniques, including Flashing Wings, he said the Minor Strikes are there to set up the Major strike which Mr. Parker intended to "end the fight."  He said the first elbow in Flashing Wings is a Major strike to stand them up, but the next 3 strikes are Minor to set up the "wind up" final blow which should put them away.  He also briefly discussed "the speed man" and how you can not "hit" someone 20 times a second.  Mr. Planas says that you can "touch" them, but you can't "hit" them because if you "hit" him twice then maybe there was something wrong with your first hit that failed to bring him down.

4. I know this may make it seem like Flashing Wings is a Model for Assumption of Failure because it has 2 Major strikes. I may have that wrong, but here is my take on this as well.  Very often when Sparring or when doing Technique lines or something similar I will use a piece of technique depending on where I'm at.  I think that the "Overskill" part of a technique is that it gives you 2-3+ "positions" to strike from so that whenever you find yourself in one of these "positions" you have experience with what to do.  Mr. Duffy says that you should almost Never be able to finish a technique on someone.  I have interpreted this "Overskill" stuff to be basically a 64 Box of Crayons.  When I'm "coloring" I'm not going to use them all at once.  I will pull out Green for a Turtle, White for a Cloud, Black for Doc's gi.  It does not matter what part of the box the crayon came from, it is a crayon and you use the one you need.  Even if you use a broken crayon!  

I see the Overskill idea as being a way to teach us "less techniques" because I'd rather have one technique with 8 moves in it that I can pick apart and use whenever I need to than learn 4 techniques with 2 moves each that I have to later on learn how to "graft" together. 

I also see Grafting as putting parts of techniques together, not putting whole techniques together.

Based on the  above I don't think Doc and I are thinking the same when he discusses Assumption of Failure (at least).  Also, I think this Grafting concept (the way I think of it) is Very useful in Multiple Attacker Scenarios because in Drills I have done some of a technique on one person and changed my angle to do another part of a technique on someone else.  I'm not sure if I've ever "split" one technique to work on 2 attackers.

So if you don't "check" your opponents reactions in class, you are missing something.  On occasion, I'll do a technique on a stone statue and stop and ask "Really?  That does not work?" and then do it a bit harder until I get it.

This post is already too long, but here is an example of this.  One night several of us from at least 2 different schools were doing techniques, they were actually just attacking me in preparation for my testing, I did 600 reps that day... On one guy I was doing Gift of Destruction "nicely" and one of the guys from the other school said "That won't work" but I assured him that it would.  So finally I did it again and though I think I misjudged the knee perhaps, I kneed the attacker in the groin and dropped him straight to the floor.  You could probably hear his cup echo outside the house.  So I "knew" that would "work" but now I "know" even better.  True, I didn't get to finish the technique, but that is a good sign.

So I don't see Overkill=Assumption of Failure,  I see it as "Running the Table" in Billiards.  If there are only 2 balls on the table, do you get to "run the table" like you would like to from the breaK?  No.  But do those very same skills come in handy and allow you to sink the 2 shots that are left?  Yes.  That is how I see it.

I put this up because I don't think everyone sees it like this judging from the posts.  So that is my contribution to "lets try this on some guys and see if it works."  Mr. Planas got Flashing Wings working very well on me by the way.
:asian:

PS  Yeah, like I need a PS.   But I was also a dummy for Mr. Speakman for the entire intermediate seminar in 1998 and All of his strikes worked.  I've been a dummy enough to see that most of our techniques work like they should, and if they don't because the guy is on drugs or is 300lbs with 2% bodyfat or whatever, then you have your "overskill" to carry you through.  I don't think Doc means that his stuff "never fails" do you Doc?  I assume you mean that it "fails less than Motion Kenpo."  Otherwise you must have a 120lb girl over there who can drop Mike Tyson and I will be selling the rest of my things to move out and train with you by Saturday.
 
No disrespect, but I wanted to ask you this along this train of thought.
:asian:


----------



## Doc

> I know this may make it seem like Flashing Wings is a Model for Assumption of Failure because it has 2 Major strikes.



Actually  all of Flashing Wings movements are major, as I understand and use them. This  is actually true for most techniques. when information is available.



> I think that the "Overskill" part of a technique is that it gives you 2-3+ "positions" to strike from so that whenever you find yourself in one of these "positions" you have experience with what to do.



Our disagreement is a semantical one. I dont call that over-skill which is  a cute phrase created to excuse a great deal of ineffective busy work.



> Mr. Duffy says that you should almost Never be able to finish a technique on someone.



Well said.



> I have interpreted this "Overskill" stuff to be basically a 64 Box of Crayons. When I'm "coloring" I'm not going to use them all at once. I will pull out Green for a Turtle, White for a Cloud, Black for Doc's gi. It does not matter what part of the box the crayon came from, it is a crayon and you use the one you need. Even if you use a broken crayon!



Well thats a good analogy, but if you cant draw it doesnt matter which crayon you use, its still bad.



> I also see Grafting as putting parts of techniques together, not putting whole techniques together.



Ill buy that for a dollar.



> Based on the above I don't think Doc and I are thinking the same when he discusses Assumption of Failure (at least).



Like I said, semantical.



> So I don't see Overkill=Assumption of Failure, I see it as "Running the Table" in Billiards.



Only if you can sink the balls. Theoretically if you are able to sink the last ball, you should have been able to sink the first one and therefore not get to the last ball to win the game.



> I put this up because I don't think everyone sees it like this judging from the posts. So that is my contribution to "lets try this on some guys and see if it works." Mr. Planas got Flashing Wings working very well on me by the way.
> 
> PS Yeah, like I need a PS. But I was also a dummy for Mr. Speakman for the entire intermediate seminar in 1998 and All of his strikes worked. I've been a dummy enough to see that most of our techniques work like they should, and if they don't because the guy is on drugs or is 300lbs with 2% bodyfat or whatever, then you have your "overskill" to carry you through.



Well thats the commercial version where you overwhelm your opponent with rapid fire strikes favoring soft tissue and joints. Kinda like that crazy kid in the 6th grade when he went off and the teacher had to drag him off another kid. He wasnt skilled, just overwhelming in his approach. Body fat and weight should not matter, besides from your commercial perspective why wouldnt you just stick your finger in his eye if hes 300 pounds and 2% body fat?



> I don't think Doc means that his stuff "never fails" do you Doc? I assume you mean that it "fails less than Motion Kenpo."



No it fails less than those who dont study properly. Motion Kenpo is effective and devastatingly so as much as any SL-4 interpretation, but it depends on whose teaching and doing.  Most teachers arent very good, but that is a design flaw.  SL-4 does allows a greater modulation of injury however, and gives more options than most and builds internal energy which is philosophically different.



> Otherwise you must have a 120lb girl over there who can drop Mike Tyson and I will be selling the rest of my things to move out and train with you by Saturday.



Get your ticket.

My meaning of assumption of failure is the lie of overskill that many students learn piling move upon move and extensions grafted onto gaseous expansion, inserted and prefixed into something else that was deleted once but added back later as I rip his eys out with a two-finger hook and they havent learned a decent stance or block yet while continuing to get promoted and work on kenpo sticks and knives. Ive done enough camps and seminars to know that maybe 5% that show up have a decent stance and basics. Basics seemed to be ignored by many in favor of learning techniques they cant make work, and privately confide, Id never use that technique in the real world. 

What? You got to be kiddin me. This is supposed to be self defense. "Overskilled?" No way. More like overwhelmed. "This is how it goes, but you can do it this way or this way or you can drop this and do that, but becareful because what if he's just faking?" Please. No wonder they are confused. You tell a guy 20 ways to do something and he hasn't learned one yet that will work for him. No matter I need these techniques to promote. How much for that test again?


----------



## cdhall

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *Actually  all of Flashing Wings movements are major, as I understand and use them. This  is actually true for most techniques. when information is available.*



Mr. Planas taught in his seminar that pretty much any "left-handed/weak side strike" is minor and some strong-side strikes are also minor if they didn't have any power to them.  But that these were basically put in to set you up in a good position to "end the fight" with a good right-hand something.  I know this looks like it relies on force more so than skill, but I'm sort of investigating this topic for my Black Belt Thesis and Form.



> *Our disagreement is a semantical one. I dont call that over-skill which is  a cute phrase created to excuse a great deal of ineffective busy work.*



I'm not sure I know what you call "over-skill" 



> *Well thats a good analogy, but if you cant draw it doesnt matter which crayon you use, its still bad..*



I was rather proud of that one.  But I used Crayons because I think of Kenpo more as coloring.  You have some weapons that fit some targets and you put them where they go.  Just like you color in a coloring book and use the proper colors where they go.  That is what I meant.  I expect that if I understand you correctly so far, you will next tell me that I don't know how to color.  That's OK.  I'm trying to learn.  I know it is possible that you are just working from a "different page" than I am and I'm not trying to discount that at all.  I'm just trying to relate my experience and figure out what you mean.



> *Like I said, semantical.*



I can PM you because I'm not sure I understand the semantical difference.  It still doesn't seem like we are only differing on vocabulary.



> *Only if you can sink the balls. Theoretically if you are able to sink the last ball, you should have been able to sink the first one and therefore not get to the last ball to win the game.*



Here is where I think I'm getting lost.  If you watch a Billiards Championship on ESPN for example, I don't think (I watched several 9 Ball Championship games once, but have not watched one lately) that you will see everyone of these guys win on the break or run the table from the break.  Sometimes you just can't do it no matter how good you are.

Even if they do, 9 Ball may be a good example, because sometimes you have to do some work to get to the 9 Ball.  It may not be available off the bat so you have to "do some busy work" until you get to it and sink it.  

In a technique situation this may mean that you want to drop the guy to your right, left or straight back or down depending on where you might want him to land.  I'm thinking that in a Multiple Attacker situation you may want to drop him between you and your attacker if you can.  I'm speculating of course because I've only experienced this a few times in sparring, never "for real."



> *Well thats the commercial version where you overwhelm your opponent with rapid fire strikes favoring soft tissue and joints. Kinda like that crazy kid in the 6th grade when he went off and the teacher had to drag him off another kid. He wasnt skilled, just overwhelming in his approach. Body fat and weight should not matter, besides from your commercial perspective why wouldnt you just stick your finger in his eye if hes 300 pounds and 2% body fat?*



I meant that when Mr. Speakman hit me, I reacted like he wanted/expected and there was nothing I could do about it.  That is all I meant by that. I was talking about "Motion Kenpo" being able to illicit a precise/particular reaction.

And maybe I can't reach the big guys eyes, or I don't want to blind him.  I mentioned body fat and weight because I'm suspicious that some of my stuff just flat out will not work on a 300lb guy who is all muscle.  I don't think I have 1 technique that will take out a Pro Football running back.  I will be bouncing off his muscle tissue and he won't feel any of my strikes.  I mention this because this is one scenario where hyperextending the arm may not work.  A chopping punch to the kidney or an elbow to the ribs may not work.  I don't think for example that I could hit 22yr old Mike Tyson properly to drop him.  Even if he were not defending.



> *No it fails less than those who dont study properly. Motion Kenpo is effective and devastatingly so as much as any SL-4 interpretation, but it depends on whose teaching and doing.  Most teachers arent very good, but that is a design flaw.  SL-4 does allows a greater modulation of injury however, and gives more options than most and builds internal energy which is philosophically different.*



Again at Mr. Planas' seminar I saw a few black belts who I didn't think could move, who didn't scare me, and whom I thought I could wipe out with little effort.  I see someone like this at every seminar.  I agree that there must be some guys out there teaching who are not teaching very good stuff.  One of the guys at the seminar scared me. Something came up about "teaching hours" and he said that he had too many to count and I thought "how much damage has this guy done to the system/how many people has he taught to move like him?" 

I see that you are onto something here that I am just not getting.  But I like the philosophy of SL-4.  It is similar to my Thesis topic/theme.
:asian:



> *Get your ticket.*



You know.  I'm going to want to see this stuff work like you say it works. 

Is LAX the right place to fly into?  Are picking me up, or do I need a car?  What is the cheapest clean hotel near your studio?  I can't move out there yet, but I think I can manage a trip sometime.



> *Basics seemed to be ignored by many in favor of learning techniques they cant make work...You tell a guy 20 ways to do something and he hasn't learned one yet that will work for him.... *



I asked Mr. Planas something like this.  I told him that just the day before the seminar I could have been in a 2 on 1 fight.  So I thought about "OK, guy 1 is backed up to a wall, guy 2 is on my right.  Do I KNOW a technique that will drop Guy 1 quickly, for SURE so I can position for Guy 2?"

I know a lot of techniques that will cripple someone, but I don't know if I know of any particular strikes that will drop someone without killing them or blinding them or maiming them.  I think this is Bad.  I think you agree and I want to see what you have worked out for this.  My Thesis will move me in this direction, but I don't have many of these now.

You and Mr. Dillman seem to say "I know for Sure that I can drop a guy with 1-2 moves and he won't be crippled for life." This intrigues me because all I know for sure is that I can unload on someone and Maybe stun him and then Maybe reassess and go back to him and break stuff and maim him, but that is only if I have time and proper awareness.  If I do 5 Swords on someone and delete the eye poke and go light on the back of the neck  and he still comes at me, then next time I am going to break something(s) and this doesn't make any sense.  There seems to be no middle.  If he is about my size and strength I might be able to use a joint manipulation to drop and restrain him, but if he is bigger and stronger OR if his buddy is nearby, I may not be able to take that time.

OK.  This is just about EVERYTHING I know about Kenpo.  If I didn't make it clear, I know a lot of techniques where the guy drops or is crippled, or both at the end, but I do not know many blows or strikes that will produce "X" incapacitating effect and I think this is bad.  

I mean I know that an uppercut to the solar plexis will likely bend the guy over, and take his breath and stop him, but other than that I can't think of anything I know which will stop someone without breaking something.  Except of course that generically, if I hit a little guy, I may stun him.

Sifu Swan used to say that Martial Arts were developed to give the little guy an advantage over a bigger guy.  But again, I don't think there is anything I can do to get Mr. LaBounty off of me if he came at me.  I know stuff I'd try, but short of breaking or hyperextending (more likely) his knee, going for a broken rib or a soft/weak spot on the face (which is probably very well guarded) I don't think I have anything that is sure to work and with his skill level I don't think I have anything I could pull off.

My Thesis will also deal somewhat with making your stuff work on a larger opponent.  After this project I'm going to look more closely into SL4 and whatnot.  

I think I may have babbled too much like a moron so PM me if you have want me to keep going.  I will be glad to see Doc Post or PM me either one.

Doc it looks like Southwest can get me out there and back in June for $169.  I had not done the math but since your expertise is in line with my Thesis project (or vice-versa) it would be worth it for me to get out there and see what you have.  I'll let you know when my form/techniques are done so I will have something to ask you about when I get there.

It looks like a flight may take me through Phoenix so maybe I can bribe Mr. C. meet me at the airport for a lesson while I'm between flights?

This has been a most valuable thread for me.  Thanks to all.  I was hoping to reply "quickly" while I'm at work and then look at the thread again later tonight, but it turns out that I was more thorough than I expected.  I hope I read Doc's post closely enough.
:asian:


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## Kenpo Yahoo

Let me get this straight,  You can't kick me out of kenpo if I can't play pool all that well?  I've been in a pool before, does that count for anything?

Anyway,


> Last weekend Mr. Planas demonstrated this with Flashing Wings. He said that the elbow below the Scapula is there to rock their head back so you could more easily handsword the neck. I tested it with 2 partners at "medium-slow" and it worked as advertised.



Then you better pray that everyone you meet overrotates like a mutha so that you can get far enough behind them to hit at the base of the scapula.  If you were attacking someone, would you extend so far that you give your back to them? I should hope not, because once you do the fights just about over.  One solution is an inward elbow on a sinking elliptical orbit, that makes contact in one of the two vital targets, one at a 45 degree angle from the front and the other at an 70-90 degree angle from the front (I'll let you try to find the exact location).  This will cause the attacker to fold like a lawn chair ( I'm not sure why, but I've always liked that particular simile).  

And if you are having a crappy day, or you haven't been praticing like you should be, we'll even let you use the rest of the technique to cover your butt until you can get your lazy self back to the school.    Just kidding :shrug: sort of!!

Louis Pasteur--- "Chance favors the prepared mind."
You know........ the guy who discovered penicillin.


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## Michael Billings

I have enjoyed reading it through with you.  

Doug, sometimes there is no doubt you will drop a guy in the first or second move.  Heck, a block, properly executed, may and should end the fight right then, assuming you wait long enough for him to throw the attack.  

I liked the expression coined by Edmund Jr., "Kenpo Fantasy".   I do see it as impossible, or nearly so, to keep the opponent upright until I get to finish my extended technique.  DARN, and I do so like that fantasy.

Have fun and train hard.

Oss,
-Michael


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## cdhall

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _
> *...If you were attacking someone, would you extend so far that you give your back to them? *



Sorry if I was too vague.  Mr. Planas taught that in Flashing Wings:
1. Elbow #1 will straighten them up and send them back.
-He said lots of people think this will collapse them forward but it does not.

2. You are to do Elbow #1 on your way through them so that you "land" behind them with your elbow in position to do an Outward Horizontal Elbow below their scapula which will straighten them up and bring their head back.
-Maybe since you are going through them, this makes this first elbow a minor strike?

3. Then follow with the 2 handswords to the neck that slide down to check the arm as your right ends up "back in the South Forty" ready to deliver the "blow that will end the fight."

So from his punch we practiced making this worked.  It worked when I was the dummy.  It worked on the next guy Mr. Planas demonstrated Elbow #2 on, and it worked several times on my partner when I did it myself.

No, at no time does the attacker shoot past you.  In fact, Mr. Planas also elaborated that most techniques don't work without additional inserts so that on the block you need to block  through and punch him in the face to start him standing upright for the incoming elbow of yours.  This may also give you 1 more second to get behind him and elbow him again, I can't remember. 

I will try to get someone to do this technique on tonight in class.  I think I discussed it with Mr. Duffy though on Tuesday last week and he didn't say "Wait, that won't work."  So I'm pretty sure I had it straight right after the seminar on April 12.

I hope that makes more sense.
:asian: 

Yes, Mr. Billings.  Mr. Mills has some video clips on his website where his attacker drops after a vigorously executed Inward Block.  I mention this in class frequently.

I know you know the story of Mr. Silva and Delayed Sword.  I've told that on here sometimes.  But like I said, even on you, I'm not sure I could drop you myself if I did a good, solid Hammering Inward Block on you during Delayed Sword.  I don't know.

I have dropped people in class of course. One of my points was that most of my techniques have been taught to me as "here is the technique" with very little extra attention made as to how I could "purposefully" drop him early if I chose to do it.  

I know they Might drop early, and they Should drop by the end of the technique, but I don't know that I consciously can drop someone with the first handsword to the neck on 5 Swords. While I've read about the location of pressure points and barometers and the carotid artery and how any or all of these may induce a "knockout" particularly when you strike at a downward 45 Degree angle, this type of information is not part of my learning 5 Swords.

Mr. Howard Purcell (?) once told a story at camp of how he did knock a guy out 3 times in a Shotokan tournament once with a front handsword but they didn't count his strikes "off the front hand" and his opponent went on to win the tournament.  I've told that a few times as well.

I have to run, but I'll keep checking this thread.  Thanks to everyone again of course.
:asian:


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## ikenpo

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *
> 
> I know you know the story of Mr. Silva and Delayed Sword.  I've told that on here sometimes.  But like I said, even on you, I'm not sure I could drop you myself if I did a good, solid Hammering Inward Block on you during Delayed Sword.  I don't know.
> *



Sure you could....



> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *
> I know they Might drop early, and they Should drop by the end of the technique, but I don't know that I consciously can drop someone with the first handsword to the neck on 5 Swords. While I've read about the location of pressure points and barometers and the carotid artery and how any or all of these may induce a "knockout" particularly when you strike at a downward 45 Degree angle, this type of information is not part of my learning 5 Swords.
> :asian: *



Good insight, but it doesn't mean it's not there or that your instructor doesn't know it. I'm sure he does. He may just teach it in the next evolution or phase once you've gotten to a particular point in your training.


jb:asian:


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## Doc

> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _
> *Sure you could....
> 
> 
> 
> Good insight, but it doesn't mean it's not there or that your instructor doesn't know it. I'm sure he does. He may just teach it in the next evolution or phase once you've gotten to a particular point in your training.
> 
> 
> jb:asian: *



Well said JB, and I am waiting on dinner.


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## cdhall

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *Well said JB, and I am waiting on dinner. *



Roger that.  I'll buy desert or bring the Vino if I'm invited. I'll have a bottle of Grape Nehi or IBC Black Cherry Soda for myself.
 

But I never said my instructors didn't know this stuff, it is just not how I was taught it.  I started my first ramblings by trying to convey how I learned what and so on....

Now you Tell me that I can drop Mr. Billings... but where is the verifiable, 3rd Party, independent documentation...


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## Doc

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *Roger that.  I'll buy desert or bring the Vino if I'm invited. I'll have a bottle of Grape Nehi or IBC Black Cherry Soda for myself.
> *


* 

Fine by me. Seems I am one of the few seniors who digests no alcohol. Can you imagine how many people I'd piss off if I was a drinker too!:rofl:*


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## ikenpo

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *Fine by me. Seems I am one of the few seniors who digests no alcohol. Can you imagine how many people I'd piss off if I was a drinker too!:rofl: *



Non-drinker here as well,

But back to the subject...

*



			But I never said my instructors didn't know this stuff, it is just not how I was taught it. I started my first ramblings by trying to convey how I learned what and so on....
		
Click to expand...

 * 

Agreed, my thought is that he may have showed you in another application and the connection just wasn't made for you.



> *Now you Tell me that I can drop Mr. Billings... but where is the verifiable, 3rd Party, independent documentation...*



I'm not telling you that he'd let you..lol. But he's a player so I think Mr. Billings would be on the mat to see if you got it. I'm not even speaking to your skills (as I told you when we talked tonight), I'm just saying that I know your instructor has provided you with the basics to accomplish this feat and that he focuses on the basics and proper execution. 

jb:asian: 



> *Well said JB, and I am waiting on dinner.*



I'll drop you a personal email...


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## Michael Billings

... Feeling is believing.
-MB


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## Billy Lear

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *Fine by me. Seems I am one of the few seniors who digests no alcohol. Can you imagine how many people I'd piss off if I was a drinker too!:rofl: *



Some people think you drink Drano, but that just a rumor right?

Just Kidding,
Billy :rofl:


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## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Doc _*
> Seems I am one of the few seniors who digests no alcohol.
> *



Wait a minute...... :hammer:  are you trying to horn in on my territory?:angry:  I'm the one that has the reputation for going out to bars :cheers: with the group and having Chocolate MILK!  :drinkbeer

:rofl: 

:asian:


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## cdhall

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *I'm the one that has the reputation for going out to bars :cheers: with the group and having Chocolate MILK!  :drinkbeer
> 
> :rofl:
> 
> :asian: *



Really?  That is a cool piece of trivia.
:ubercool:


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## Doc

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *Wait a minute...... :hammer:  are you trying to horn in on my territory?:angry:  I'm the one that has the reputation for going out to bars :cheers: with the group and having Chocolate MILK!  :drinkbeer
> 
> :rofl:
> 
> :asian: *



I love chocolate milk, but it's sooooo fattening. Well, maybe just a small glass.


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## Billy Lear

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *I love chocolate milk, but it's sooooo fattening. Well, maybe just a small glass. *




I like chocolate milk too. Save some for me, or I'll show up at your place in my pink speedo!


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## Doc

> _Originally posted by Billy Lear _
> *I like chocolate milk too. Save some for me, or I'll show up at your place in my pink speedo! *


Please. Not the speedo.


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## GaryM

Just some food for thought.  According to The Encyclopedia of Dim Mak striking Cv 17 and Gb 20 and St 9 in combination is supposed to result in death.  Thats the solar plexus, back of the mastoid, and the side of the throat even with the adam's apple. Sounds like FW to me. FWIW


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## MartialArtist

I got hit in the groin with the butt of a rifle.  My first reaction?  Nothing.  About five seconds later, I dropped.


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## D.Cobb

> _Originally posted by GaryM _
> *Just some food for thought.  According to The Encyclopedia of Dim Mak striking Cv 17 and Gb 20 and St 9 in combination is supposed to result in death.  Thats the solar plexus, back of the mastoid, and the side of the throat even with the adam's apple. Sounds like FW to me. FWIW *



Ok, I give up......

What is FW & FWIW?

--Dave


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## Kenpomachine

> _Originally posted by D.Cobb _
> *What is FW & FWIW?
> *



FWIW - For What Is Worth


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## GaryM

> _Originally posted by D.Cobb _
> *Ok, I give up......
> 
> What is FW & FWIW?
> 
> --Dave
> 
> *


 FW = flashing wings. it was being discussed a bit before chocolate milk. FWIW has already been covered in the previous  post. I can't remember the question, but I know the answer is BEER!


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## D.Cobb

> _Originally posted by Kenpomachine _
> *FWIW - For What Is Worth *







> _Originally posted by GaryM _
> *FW = flashing wings. it was being discussed a bit before chocolate milk. FWIW has already been covered in the previous post. I can't remember the question, but I know the answer is BEER!*




I'm a clutz! 

I spent hours.... well... minutes anyway, busting my brain trying to figure that one out.
Sorry guys.

Sort of reminds me of this one,

YYUR                           
YYUB                           
ICUR                           
YY4ME                          

Which of course translates to,

Too wise you are
Too wise you be
I see you are
Too wise for me.

--Dave


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