# What's wrong with American Kenpo?



## Mark P (Jan 14, 2015)

Hey fellow artists, I am beginning work on a black belt thesis for Kenpo and could use some help.   I am looking at criticism of Kenpo and trying to create drills and practice strategies to help minimize those problems.  So what do you think is wrong with American Kenpo?


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## Buka (Jan 14, 2015)

Hi, Mark, welcome to the forum.

I don't think you can generalize like that. "American Kenpo" would be dependent on an individual school, and I've found that all schools are different.

For your thesis - what criticisms are you trying to create drills and practice strategies for? You might also want to explore where those criticisms came from - which might be an interesting part of your thesis.

Are you looking at American Kenpo as it compares to other Kenpos, either now or in Kenpo's origins? 

As for the last part of your post, I don't think there's anything wrong with American Kenpo. (I'm not a Kenpo stylist)


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## Tony Dismukes (Jan 14, 2015)

I do like the idea of looking for critiques of your art and figuring out ways to address them. The usual response from many martial artists is to insist that there are no problems with their art.

That said, the question is kind of broad. As Buka notes, there is plenty of variation between schools.

I've certainly seen plenty of kempo demonstrations that I could provide some severe criticism of, but that doesn't necessarily mean  there's a problem with the art - just with how those individuals were displaying it.


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## Blindside (Jan 14, 2015)

Hi Mark,
So we didn't require a thesis at my kenpo school, but when the question came up on the "oral exam" section of mytest, I did turn in a 5 page document listing the things I thought we could better.  That may have extended the duration of my test significantly.   I was a kenpo instructor for several years, but eventually left the art because of what I percieve as its shortcomings.  In my opinion and in no particular order.

Too much time spent on lengthy memorized techniques, not enough time spent on drills to actually accomplish the flow and checking that is sought.  I really like what Zach Whitson did with the his Kenpo Counterpoint work, which eventually morphed into him developing an entire system, the Counterpoint Tactical System.  If you can get ahold of it, the Kenpo Counterpoint vid or dvd is well worth your time.

There is a disconnect between sparring and forms and techs.  Kenpoists do not look like how they train, generally they look like kickboxers on the sparring floor which is not at all what the forms and techs seem to advocate.  When you look at martial arts that spar regularly as part of their training, they look like what their fundamentals advocate.  I find a problem when much of the training is focusing on "stone statue" training, that is supposed to be a beginner step, not something you spend 5 years on.


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## yak sao (Jan 14, 2015)

I think we should let an expert answer.


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## Blindside (Jan 14, 2015)

Validation!


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## kuniggety (Jan 14, 2015)

I love those Ameri-do-te videos. I'm a BJJ dude and I still like his BJJ video.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 14, 2015)

I think the Kenpo Attitude is the biggest problem. You got a problem with that Mr. Big Nose?


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## Flying Crane (Jan 14, 2015)

I was a shodan in the Tracy lineage and left it to do other things.  I could offer my own observations from that, perhaps best done privately, possibly over the phone would be easiest.  Let me know if you are interested.


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## tshadowchaser (Jan 14, 2015)

from what I saw years ago it was the attitude of high ranking people towards lower ranking people.
Example: people over the rank of 5th or 6 dan ignoring 1st -4th dans at tournament because they did not have the rank.
but this could have just been individuals and no a true example of the art.
as with any thing else individuals and each school will vary in what they do and expect and how they present themselves so The problems can not be qualified into a small area
===================================================================
in truth this whole thread could be considered style bashing

======================================================
having made the above statements I must say I was at a Kenpo activity this last weekend and all there respected and talked freely with everyone else no matter what rank  so maybe things have changed over the years


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## Mephisto (Jan 14, 2015)

I'd say the fact that you have to write a thesis is what's wrong with kenpo. Even an oral exam as mentioned by blindside is evidence of a possible problem in my book. I suppose it matters how much weight is placed on an exam or thesis. What if a practitioner barely scraped by on technique but nailed the exam? Fighting arts are about physical performance why try to play it up to something more intellectual that it is not? A lot of fighters fancy themselves intellectuals but the truth is there are many dumb fighters and many intelligent people who can't fight, both attributes would be nice but they are two different disciplines. history is good for an instructor to know if it's factual and true but many arts are guilty of spreading myth and hearsay. If an arts primary purpose is fighting ability than that should be how students are graded. Imagine a gymnast being graded on physical ability and written exam. Perhaps exams have some place in martial arts but I'm skeptical of ma that try to take the intellectual approach, it sounds good in theory but in truth an ape can smash someone to pieces. For self defense ability is much more important than thought and conjecture.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 15, 2015)

Mephisto said:


> I'd say the fact that you have to write a thesis is what's wrong with kenpo. Even an oral exam as mentioned by blindside is evidence of a possible problem in my book. I suppose it matters how much weight is placed on an exam or thesis. What if a practitioner barely scraped by on technique but nailed the exam? Fighting arts are about physical performance why try to play it up to something more intellectual that it is not? A lot of fighters fancy themselves intellectuals but the truth is there are many dumb fighters and many intelligent people who can't fight, both attributes would be nice but they are two different disciplines. history is good for an instructor to know if it's factual and true but many arts are guilty of spreading myth and hearsay. If an arts primary purpose is fighting ability than that should be how students are graded. Imagine a gymnast being graded on physical ability and written exam. Perhaps exams have some place in martial arts but I'm skeptical of ma that try to take the intellectual approach, it sounds good in theory but in truth an ape can smash someone to pieces. For self defense ability is much more important than thought and conjecture.


I don't think focusing on problem areas is all that intellectual.


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## kuniggety (Jan 15, 2015)

I'm not a Kempoist but my guess is that the black belt marks the point where one becomes a teacher of the art. I don't find it that unreasonable to test someone on their knowledge of the history, philosophy, dynamics, and points of contention of the system before they are deemed a "representative" of the art.


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## tshadowchaser (Jan 15, 2015)

on writing a thesis or giving one orally, I would hope that a large consideration was being given for the persons mental capabilities and the amount of education that person has.


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## Blindside (Jan 15, 2015)

We didn't have a thesis requirement at my school because our school founder said that it wasn't something he was required to do or was something that he would have been able to do well.  But we did have an oral question and answer period during the black belt test (between all forms and self-defense tech demos and before sparring) where various questions were asked regarding school and lineage history, what would you do in awkward teaching situation X, what their goals were with the martial arts pursuits.  It isn't something you could fail but I think it was a good learning experience.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 15, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> I don't think focusing on problem areas is all that intellectual.


Might be, if the purpose was to look for ways to improve things


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 15, 2015)

Flying Crane said:


> Might be, if the purpose was to look for ways to improve things


Nobody calls an improvement in Football performance intellectual, but it is; so, why not.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 15, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Nobody calls an improvement in Football performance intellectual, but it is; so, why not.


Sure, put some heads together and come up with some solutions.  There's brain power working there.


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## Tames D (Jan 15, 2015)

kuniggety said:


> I'm not a Kempoist but my guess is that the black belt marks the point where one becomes a teacher of the art. I don't find it that unreasonable to test someone on their knowledge of the history, philosophy, dynamics, and points of contention of the system before they are deemed a "representative" of the art.


Not every black belt wants to be teach.


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## drop bear (Jan 15, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Nobody calls an improvement in Football performance intellectual, but it is; so, why not.



which bit? the training methods,the nutrition,the psychology,the advancement of equipment or the tactics.

because people with degrees are handling those things.


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## drop bear (Jan 15, 2015)

Ed parker fought/sparred good people?


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## kuniggety (Jan 15, 2015)

Tames D said:


> Not every black belt wants to be teach.


 It's not as simple as them not wanting to teach but rather, as a black belt, they are representative of the art and in a position that they could teach.


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## Tames D (Jan 15, 2015)

kuniggety said:


> It's not as simple as them not wanting to teach but rather, as a black belt, they are representative of the art and in a position that they could teach.


Teaching has nothing to do with representing the art. Good fighting skills represent the art.


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## Blindside (Jan 16, 2015)

Tames D said:


> Not every black belt wants to be teach.



At our school a black belt was an instructor, and there was something of an apprenticeship as a brown if you wanted to make black.  We had some bad *** underbelts who simply weren't interested in being an instructor, so they stayed underbelts.


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## Mark P (Jan 25, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I do like the idea of looking for critiques of your art and figuring out ways to address them. The usual response from many martial artists is to insist that there are no problems with their art.
> 
> That said, the question is kind of broad. As Buka notes, there is plenty of variation between schools.
> 
> I've certainly seen plenty of kempo demonstrations that I could provide some severe criticism of, but that doesn't necessarily mean  there's a problem with the art - just with how those individuals were displaying it.




It is those severe criticisms that I am looking for.   I hear people say things about the self defense techniques being unrealistic due to the attackers just throwing out a punch and standing there.  Or Kenpo guys hit themselves and stomp around too much.  Things along those lines are what I am going to try and find ways to improve upon.  Thanks for taking the time to respond.


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## Mark P (Jan 25, 2015)

Tames D said:


> Teaching has nothing to do with representing the art. Good fighting skills represent the art.


I find that when I try and teach someone how to do something it improves my technique.


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## Mark P (Jan 25, 2015)

Mephisto said:


> I'd say the fact that you have to write a thesis is what's wrong with kenpo. Even an oral exam as mentioned by blindside is evidence of a possible problem in my book. I suppose it matters how much weight is placed on an exam or thesis. What if a practitioner barely scraped by on technique but nailed the exam? Fighting arts are about physical performance why try to play it up to something more intellectual that it is not? A lot of fighters fancy themselves intellectuals but the truth is there are many dumb fighters and many intelligent people who can't fight, both attributes would be nice but they are two different disciplines. history is good for an instructor to know if it's factual and true but many arts are guilty of spreading myth and hearsay. If an arts primary purpose is fighting ability than that should be how students are graded. Imagine a gymnast being graded on physical ability and written exam. Perhaps exams have some place in martial arts but I'm skeptical of ma that try to take the intellectual approach, it sounds good in theory but in truth an ape can smash someone to pieces. For self defense ability is much more important than thought and conjecture.


I do think Kenpo loses a lot of students due to the shear volume of stuff they want you to learn in addition to the basic techniques.   There are sayings,definitions,pledges,anatomy, and written projects.  I have seen many people get to about the purple belt level and realize they didn't want to get a degree.....just learn how to fight.  All that being said, every item I have had to learn has related back to the techniques in some way.  If I learn a definition of a bracing angle and then see it in a technique that intellectual analysis of Kenpo definitions now has applicablity when someone is trying to kick my ***.


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## Mark P (Jan 25, 2015)

Tames D said:


> Not every black belt wants to be teach.


Should every black belt be able to teach?


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## Mark P (Jan 25, 2015)

Blindside said:


> Hi Mark,
> So we didn't require a thesis at my kenpo school, but when the question came up on the "oral exam" section of mytest, I did turn in a 5 page document listing the things I thought we could better.  That may have extended the duration of my test significantly.   I was a kenpo instructor for several years, but eventually left the art because of what I percieve as its shortcomings.  In my opinion and in no particular order.
> 
> Too much time spent on lengthy memorized techniques, not enough time spent on drills to actually accomplish the flow and checking that is sought.  I really like what Zach Whitson did with the his Kenpo Counterpoint work, which eventually morphed into him developing an entire system, the Counterpoint Tactical System.  If you can get ahold of it, the Kenpo Counterpoint vid or dvd is well worth your time.
> ...


Fantastic response!!  I could not agree with you more and that is the primary reason I chose this subject for a thesis.  I have always felt like Kenpoists all turned into bad Tae Kwon Do guys once they started sparring.   With a background in TKD I sought out Kenpo due to the reputation they had for fast hand techniques.  TKD gave me plenty of kicks but my hands and defense against hands were weak.  I see a lot of potential in the flow of Kenpo techniques and feel that emphasizing that aspect could improve its viability as an art.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 25, 2015)

Mark P said:


> It is those severe criticisms that I am looking for.   I hear people say things about the self defense techniques being unrealistic due to the attackers just throwing out a punch and standing there.  Or Kenpo guys hit themselves and stomp around too much.  Things along those lines are what I am going to try and find ways to improve upon.  Thanks for taking the time to respond.


I'm a hitter of thyself. I also like to share the wealth.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 25, 2015)

Mark P said:


> Fantastic response!!  I could not agree with you more and that is the primary reason I chose this subject for a thesis.  I have always felt like Kenpoists all turned into bad Tae Kwon Do guys once they started sparring.   With a background in TKD I sought out Kenpo due to the reputation they had for fast hand techniques.  TKD gave me plenty of kicks but my hands and defense against hands were weak.  I see a lot of potential in the flow of Kenpo techniques and feel that emphasizing that aspect could improve its viability as an art.


If you try to use TKD in Kenpo it makes for both Bad TKD, and Bad Kenpo.


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## Mark P (Jan 25, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> If you try to use TKD in Kenpo it makes for both Bad TKD and Bad Kenpo.


Never punch a puncher or kick a kicker.  We get nothing done


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 25, 2015)

Mark P said:


> Never punch a puncher or kick a kicker.  We get nothing done


One style will dominate the other (TKD Will win), and the other style is just an impurity.


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## Mark P (Jan 25, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> One style will dominate the other (TKD Will win), and the other style is just an impurity.


Not the only impure thing in my life


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 25, 2015)

Mark P said:


> Not the only impure thing in my life


If you find yourself wanting to kick the problem, you should stick to TKD.


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## drop bear (Jan 25, 2015)

Mark P said:


> I do think Kenpo loses a lot of students due to the shear volume of stuff they want you to learn in addition to the basic techniques.   There are sayings,definitions,pledges,anatomy, and written projects.  I have seen many people get to about the purple belt level and realize they didn't want to get a degree.....just learn how to fight.  All that being said, every item I have had to learn has related back to the techniques in some way.  If I learn a definition of a bracing angle and then see it in a technique that intellectual analysis of Kenpo definitions now has applicablity when someone is trying to kick my ***.



I am yes and no on the idea of that. The physics can explain why a move works or rationalize its validity when it doesn't.


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## drop bear (Jan 25, 2015)

Mark P said:


> Never punch a puncher or kick a kicker.  We get nothing done



Or eyegouge from your back.


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## drop bear (Jan 25, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> If you try to use TKD in Kenpo it makes for both Bad TKD, and Bad Kenpo.



why would that be? If kempo is so rigid you can't bolt on a concept that might be an issue.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 25, 2015)

drop bear said:


> why would that be? If kempo is so rigid you can't bolt on a concept that might be an issue.


TKD is Kicking focused, where as Kenpo is not. I cant make it any plainer. When you think of Kicks as your bread and butter, you are TKD minded. It is good or bad in the real world, it just makes for "Bad" Kenpo.


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## Tames D (Jan 25, 2015)

Mark P said:


> Should every black belt be able to teach?


I'll answer it with a few questions. Should every pro football player be able to teach? Should every pro boxer be able to teach? Should every MLB player be able to teach? Should every welder be able to teach? Should every plumber be able to teach? Should every NBA player be able to teach? Should every ....


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## drop bear (Jan 25, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> TKD is Kicking focused, where as Kenpo is not. I cant make it any plainer. When you think of Kicks as your bread and butter, you are TKD minded. It is good or bad in the real world, it just makes for "Bad" Kenpo.



I am lost. So if say for example you could kick a guys head off then you could not kempo well?


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## drop bear (Jan 25, 2015)

Tames D said:


> I'll answer it with a few of questions. Should every pro football player be able to teach? Should every pro boxer be able to teach? Should every MLB player be able to teach? Should every welder be able to teach? Should every plumber be able to teach? Should every NBA player be able to teach? Should every ....



Then a separate grade for qualified teachers?


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 26, 2015)

drop bear said:


> I am lost. So if say for example you could kick a guys head off then you could not kempo well?


Could? No. Would? Yes.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jan 26, 2015)

Mark P said:


> It is those severe criticisms that I am looking for.   I hear people say things about the self defense techniques being unrealistic due to the attackers just throwing out a punch and standing there.  Or Kenpo guys hit themselves and stomp around too much.  Things along those lines are what I am going to try and find ways to improve upon.  Thanks for taking the time to respond.



If you want specific criticism, then you'll need to provide specific video for critique. I don't want to be in the position of assuming a flaw I see is necessarily typical of Kenpo as a whole instead of an individual practitioner.

However, since you mentioned it ... I have seen plenty of Kenpo demonstrations where the attacker throws a single punch and leaves it hanging out there and acts like a punching bag while the defender performs a 12-move combo.( I can't say whether that's just for demos or if you actually train that way.) The only way that works is if you are 12 times faster than your opponent or if your first strike is always so devastating as to leave your opponent out on his feet. A safer way to think about it is "when I get a move, he gets a move."


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 26, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> If you want specific criticism, then you'll need to provide specific video for critique. I don't want to be in the position of assuming a flaw I see is necessarily typical of Kenpo as a whole instead of an individual practitioner.
> 
> However, since you mentioned it ... I have seen plenty of Kenpo demonstrations where the attacker throws a single punch and leaves it hanging out there and acts like a punching bag while the defender performs a 12-move combo.( I can't say whether that's just for demos or if you actually train that way.) The only way that works is if you are 12 times faster than your opponent or if your first strike is always so devastating as to leave your opponent out on his feet. A safer way to think about it is "when I get a move, he gets a move."


Yeah, it can be a mess. LOL


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 26, 2015)

perhaps the original post could be better stated as " what dont you like about Kenpo".  there are parts of the style that i do not agree with but i would not say it is "wrong" unless there is a specific frame work around it. 
something could be wrong in one context but not wrong in another.


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 26, 2015)

look at Larry Tatum ...the first technique up to 00:35 seconds in the clip...





you can see where Master Ken gets his "re stomp the groin Joke.  2:00 to 2:30





this is something i do not like about kenpo.  it looks fancy and while it may take a lot of skill needed to do what Larry Tatum does, it is void of the reality of true violence.  as others often point out, no one during a real fight is going to stand there (or lie there) while you do 15 strikes on them.  the practice of rapid fire strikes is one thing , doing 50 of them is something all together different.





and again,, and again..
this is the practice of striking for the sake of striking. it has no relevance in self protection, street fighting, MMA or any other competitive aspect of martial arts.


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 26, 2015)

same problem here but i will also point out a different aspect of kenpo i do not like.  this clip is labeled as "speed"  while speed is needed for combat, speed should not be sacrificed for power.  i call this slap and tickle.  most of these "speed" strikes will not have any power and certainly will not stop an actual attacker.  it could stun and surprise them but not stop them.  
maybe i should point out that i am a 3rd degree black belt and was an instructor for many years in kempo.  so i am familiar with the style.  in my experience there was never any importance or instruction on how to strike with power. i had to leave the system and study Okinawan karate to learn that aspect.


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## Drose427 (Jan 26, 2015)

FIrst, I'd like to say theres nothing wrong the attacker doing the traditional punch to up, stance and all, in a way that if the defender doesnt move theyre gonna get hurt. Plenty of MA schools do this and have students who are capable of Defending themselves because of that danger. Idk how many times I lost focus at just the wrong moment and got my nose or mouth busted. 

But, the problem I've seen with American Kenpo here in this thread and in others, is that the defender is doing wayyyyy too much. after one or two moves, if you havent put the guy down he's just gonna attack again. We teach all gold belts and up (gold is where students are expected to have their own SD moves) that 2-3 is the most they should be doing, with 3 being the "It's a good one for belt test to showcase moves, but understand it's too much for SD" number. Anymore, and you're probably gonna get clocked trying to showoff

I dont know if these videos are a poor representation, or what. I've personally never been able to train with a Kenpo student as there isnt one in my area. But from what I _have_ seen, thats big issue I have.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 26, 2015)

hoshin1600 said:


> perhaps the original post could be better stated as " what dont you like about Kenpo".  there are parts of the style that i do not agree with but i would not say it is "wrong" unless there is a specific frame work around it.
> something could be wrong in one context but not wrong in another.


Like what? What don't you like? Come on....


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 26, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> FIrst, I'd like to say theres nothing wrong the attacker doing the traditional punch to up, stance and all, in a way that if the defender doesnt move theyre gonna get hurt. Plenty of MA schools do this and have students who are capable of Defending themselves because of that danger. Idk how many times I lost focus at just the wrong moment and got my nose or mouth busted.
> 
> But, the problem I've seen with American Kenpo here in this thread and in others, is that the defender is doing wayyyyy too much. after one or two moves, if you havent put the guy down he's just gonna attack again. We teach all gold belts and up (gold is where students are expected to have their own SD moves) that 2-3 is the most they should be doing, with 3 being the "It's a good one for belt test to showcase moves, but understand it's too much for SD" number. Anymore, and you're probably gonna get clocked trying to showoff
> 
> I dont know if these videos are a poor representation, or what. I've personally never been able to train with a Kenpo student as there isnt one in my area. But from what I _have_ seen, thats big issue I have.


I would call it bad video. I don't dislike the Tatum stuff, but it is clearly a production, and not real fighting. You should do what he does, but you need to cover some serious distance in real life. They don't stand there. I forgive him, because it would look like crap if it were real. Fighting isn't as pretty as he makes it out to be.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 26, 2015)

I would also like to point out that the overkill, you see, is scripted stuff, we are supposed to remember, but most of the time you would "Graft" to a choke, or some other favorite. The extensions are just busy work, for the most part. The technique and it's extention are like little Katas, or Form-etts.


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## Drose427 (Jan 26, 2015)

hoshin1600 said:


> same problem here but i will also point out a different aspect of kenpo i do not like.  this clip is labeled as "speed"  while speed is needed for combat, speed should not be sacrificed for power.  i call this slap and tickle.  most of these "speed" strikes will not have any power and certainly will not stop an actual attacker.  it could stun and surprise them but not stop them.
> maybe i should point out that i am a 3rd degree black belt and was an instructor for many years in kempo.  so i am familiar with the style.  in my experience there was never any importance or instruction on how to strike with power. i had to leave the system and study Okinawan karate to learn that aspect.




This can be debatable. From a scientific standpoint, Kinetic=1/2 Mass X Velocity^2, while Momentum = mass X Velocity. Speed _generates_ Force, and is important for hitting harder. One thing did see in the video you posted though, was that there wasnt any drive or penetration, which is the most important part regardless of if you have a speed or power philosophy. 

It doesnt matter how hard or fast you hit, if you arent driving through a target that _will _put him down, he wont go down.  If someone knows how to take a hit, a solar plexus shot isnt going to drop them, regardless of how much power you have. But a fast  strike to chin's sweet spot might.  I would agree call what he was doing "slap and tickle," looked more like a kung fu movie than a SD tech


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 26, 2015)

lets look at the difference between these two









important aspects to note would be the cadence of the strikes.  where kenpo does multiple strikes in a flury, Bas will strike pause, strike pause.
Bahng, bahng, bahng....dangada, dangada, dang


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 26, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> This can be debatable. From a scientific standpoint, Kinetic=1/2 Mass X Velocity^2, while Momentum = mass X Velocity. Speed _generates_ Force, and is important for hitting harder. One thing did see in the video you posted though, was that there wasnt any drive or penetration, which is the most important part regardless of if you have a speed or power philosophy.
> 
> It doesnt matter how hard or fast you hit, if you arent driving through a target that _will _put him down, he wont go down.  If someone knows how to take a hit, a solar plexus shot isnt going to drop them, regardless of how much power you have. But a fast  strike to chin's sweet spot might.  I would agree call what he was doing "slap and tickle," looked more like a kung fu movie than a SD tech


Just for the record my teacher would beat me with a stick if he saw me doing Kenpo like that.


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## tshadowchaser (Jan 26, 2015)

I like a lot of what Bas Rutten has to say about self defense in some of his videos.

It looks nothing like what is taught in a kenpo class however


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 26, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> This can be debatable. From a scientific standpoint, Kinetic=1/2 Mass X Velocity^2, while Momentum = mass X Velocity. Speed _generates_ Force, and is important for hitting harder.



i agree but..this would be an over simplification of the complex physics of a human strike.  many people refer to this equation but it is only a part. as you pointed out there is a lack of penetration. there are also factors such as "time on target" and torque.  the kinetic energy example works well for ballistics because the explosion of force causes the bullet to move. after that initial force there is no longer any force applied, on the contrary a punch also has a factor of torque or "push" involved.  the force of a powerfull punch does not stop upon an initial burst but continues and should actually build and push into the target. there is kinetic energy in a punch but there also has to be a transfer of that energy into the target. the longer the punching hand remains on the target the more of that energy will be absorbed into the target.  this is time on target.
kenpo tends to have a fast strike but in order to execute multiple strikes, the striking hand has to begin its next action and reverse direction before the generated kinetic energy can be transfered. many times in the anticipation of the next strike the practitioner will unknowingly be using apposing muscles to reverse the direction of the hand before the first strike is completed, this reduces the speed and the power for each strike.


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 26, 2015)

the next thing i dont really like in kenpo (and i have had this discussion before) is the insistence that the system is scientific.  i have challenged people here before on this.  please explain where and how it is scientific.  the usually reply is that "it just is".   like most other systems it does have a method of training and theory.  the universal pattern and such is a theory of combative tactics.  it is not unlike wing chun which has the center and central line theory and the six gates theory. this is not science.  science from my perspective would be things like, studies done on how the body re generates muscle cells after iron shirt or iron palm training or how the neural networks in your brain function for self defense while under the stress of combat. so far any attempt to define how kenpo is scientific would also apply equally to any and every other martial art.
my point of course is that the tag line used in kenpo is that it is scientific and modern,  thus making the assumption and presenting the art as somehow better than the others. this is just simply is not true and in todays society there really is no need to market an art as modern when it was created over 50 years ago.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 26, 2015)

hoshin1600 said:


> the next thing i dont really like in kenpo (and i have had this discussion before) is the insistence that the system is scientific.  i have challenged people here before on this.  please explain where and how it is scientific.  the usually reply is that "it just is".   like most other systems it does have a method of training and theory.  the universal pattern and such is a theory of combative tactics.  it is not unlike wing chun which has the center and central line theory and the six gates theory. this is not science.  science from my perspective would be things like, studies done on how the body re generates muscle cells after iron shirt or iron palm training or how the neural networks in your brain function for self defense while under the stress of combat. so far any attempt to define how kenpo is scientific would also apply equally to any and every other martial art.
> my point of course is that the tag line used in kenpo is that it is scientific and modern,  thus making the assumption and presenting the art as somehow better than the others. this is just simply is not true and in todays society there really is no need to market an art as modern when it was created over 50 years ago.


You have to realize why that was being said. It means there are no mystical forces at work. And, it means only that. Everything else is something you added.


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 26, 2015)

a modern and scientific combative art would take into account the studies and practices that we have learned over the last 50 years....
On Combat The Psychology and Physiology of Deadly Conflict in War and Peace Beyond Intractability

_"There is a wide range of possible responses and experiences during extreme high stress events. Sharper focus, visual clarity, slow-motion time, temporary paralysis, dissociation, and intrusive thoughts can all occur. When dissociation (a detachment from physical and emotional reality) occurs, it may be a red flag for the onset of post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). Loss of bladder and bowel control during moments of intensity is a common occurrence that is rarely discussed."_
_
"Heart rate increase in response to fear is correlated with a deterioration of motor skills and senses like vision and hearing. Eventually cognitive abilities degrade to a point Grossman calls condition black (based off of work done by Bruce Siddle and Jeff Cooper). He gives conditions white, yellow, red, gray, and black, with white being unconcerned and black being overwhelmed. He believes high pressure situations call for condition yellow in which motor and cognitive skills are functioning at peak performance. Condition black is said to be when the heart rate gets above 175 beats per minute because of the influx of adrenaline from stress. At this point vasoconstriction, the tightening of the blood vessels, allows less oxygen to the brain. The mid-brain, the part we share with animals like dogs and bears, takes over. Rational thought goes out the window."

Training as realistically as possible is important. Repeated actions allow the warrior to act without thinking, as though they were on "autopilot". It is actually possible to be scared speechless. Rehearsing the appropriate words can prevent this from happening. 

On Combat Media Violence

Dr. Artwohl’s research found that 74 percent of the officers involved in a deadly force encounter acted on automatic pilot. In other words, the actions of three out of four officers in combat were done without conscious thought. 

*Whatever is drilled in during training comes out the other end in combat--no more, no less*
"Whatever you would make habitual, practise it; and if you would not make a thing habitual, do not practise it, but habituate yourself to something else." 
- Epictetus (1st century A.D.)
 How the Semblances of Things are to be Combated

_
with these in mind i would like to again state that there is nothing WRONG with kenpo.  what is wrong... is my own expectations and the disconnect between my own personal needs and what kenpo has to offer.  what i might find unexceptable will and could be exactly what the next person is looking for.



my individual focus is on what has now been coined as "reality self defense" .  i prefer a martial art that has a minimal curriculum.  i find kenpo has to much to remember.  my own practice has only 3 kicks and few hand strikes.  i want to train these few things until they become hard wired into my brain. studies have shown that during combat, more response choices slow the response time down considerably.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 26, 2015)

hoshin1600 said:


> a modern and scientific combative art would take into account the studies and practices that we have learned over the last 50 years....
> On Combat The Psychology and Physiology of Deadly Conflict in War and Peace Beyond Intractability
> 
> _"There is a wide range of possible responses and experiences during extreme high stress events. Sharper focus, visual clarity, slow-motion time, temporary paralysis, dissociation, and intrusive thoughts can all occur. When dissociation (a detachment from physical and emotional reality) occurs, it may be a red flag for the onset of post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). Loss of bladder and bowel control during moments of intensity is a common occurrence that is rarely discussed."
> ...


But the thing about kenpo, is that you are practicing the same thing, or "Sam Ting", over and over. It is a lesson many people miss.


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 26, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> You have to realize why that was being said. It means there are no mystical forces at work. And, it means only that. Everything else is something you added.



of course these are my own opinions and my personal views ..that being said my belief and observations lead me to believe that Ed Parker made the statements about his art in an attempt to market his "new" art form.  for many many years the age of an art was assumed to be a mark of authenticity and Mr Parker could not do this.  any new art would be looked upon with suspicion and be viewed quite frankly as a scam.  to his credit he took something that could have been a negative and turned it into a marketing advantage.  but i believe its time to move on now and move forward.


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 26, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> But the thing about kenpo, is that you are practicing the same thing, or "Sam Ting", over and over. It is a lesson many people miss.



im sorry i dont agree.
i could probably list 100 different kicks as opposed to my three.
countless blocks and unique movements. 
God only knows how many kata there are in all the different factions of kenpo.


i do understand your point, i just dont agree


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 26, 2015)

hoshin1600 said:


> im sorry i dont agree.
> i could probably list 100 different kicks as opposed to my three.
> countless blocks and unique movements.
> God only knows how many kata there are in all the different factions of kenpo.
> ...


Sounds like TKD Kanpo to me.


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## Drose427 (Jan 26, 2015)

hoshin1600 said:


> im sorry i dont agree.
> i could probably list 100 different kicks as opposed to my three.
> countless blocks and unique movements.
> God only knows how many kata there are in all the different factions of kenpo.
> ...


The number of moves total is irrelevant. Everyone in every style has a handful they drill to the point of being "hard wired" as you put it. The rest are simply options that were available but didnt fit you.


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## Hanzou (Jan 27, 2015)

Blindside said:


> There is a disconnect between sparring and forms and techs.  Kenpoists do not look like how they train, generally they look like kickboxers on the sparring floor which is not at all what the forms and techs seem to advocate.  When you look at martial arts that spar regularly as part of their training, they look like what their fundamentals advocate.  I find a problem when much of the training is focusing on "stone statue" training, that is supposed to be a beginner step, not something you spend 5 years on.



Yeah, that's never a good sign.

I guess for me I never really understood what Kenpo was/is exactly. Everytime I read about it, it was like I was reading about a completely different art. And frankly, it just looked like Karate to me, so I didn't see what the big difference was. So I feel that a lack of a strong, unique identity is a big problem for the art.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 27, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Yeah, that's never a good sign.
> 
> I guess for me I never really understood what Kenpo was/is exactly. Everytime I read about it, it was like I was reading about a completely different art. And frankly, it just looked like Karate to me, so I didn't see what the big difference was. So I feel that a lack of a strong, unique identity is a big problem for the art.


We have more Black Belts than kenpoists. LOL


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## drop bear (Jan 27, 2015)

hoshin1600 said:


> same problem here but i will also point out a different aspect of kenpo i do not like.  this clip is labeled as "speed"  while speed is needed for combat, speed should not be sacrificed for power.  i call this slap and tickle.  most of these "speed" strikes will not have any power and certainly will not stop an actual attacker.  it could stun and surprise them but not stop them.
> maybe i should point out that i am a 3rd degree black belt and was an instructor for many years in kempo.  so i am familiar with the style.  in my experience there was never any importance or instruction on how to strike with power. i had to leave the system and study Okinawan karate to learn that aspect.



maywhether does slap and tickle style drills


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 27, 2015)

drop bear said:


> maywhether does slap and tickle style drills



by all means post the vid clip....so we can verify that and compare.


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## drop bear (Jan 27, 2015)




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## hoshin1600 (Jan 27, 2015)

incredible head movement with the bob and weave.  that is something i could never really get.


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## drop bear (Jan 27, 2015)

hoshin1600 said:


> incredible head movement with the bob and weave.  that is something i could never really get.



And that is why he gets the pay check.


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## Buka (Jan 27, 2015)

hoshin1600 said:


> same problem here but i will also point out a different aspect of kenpo i do not like.  this clip is labeled as "speed"  while speed is needed for combat, speed should not be sacrificed for power.  i call this slap and tickle.  most of these "speed" strikes will not have any power and certainly will not stop an actual attacker.  it could stun and surprise them but not stop them.
> maybe i should point out that i am a 3rd degree black belt and was an instructor for many years in kempo.  so i am familiar with the style.  in my experience there was never any importance or instruction on how to strike with power. i had to leave the system and study Okinawan karate to learn that aspect.



Many young Martial Artists, especially those with fast twitch muscle fibers, go through the "Dog and pony show" stage. Just like the young man featured in that clip. Eventually, someone will remove the board from his back and the invisible neck brace he's wearing, so his head isn't sitting atop the same place like a neon T-ball.

Or he'll get popped, which will stun him at first, but he'll butch up for a second and get popped again harder......which is when he'll either bend at the waist, for what he perceives as a safe haven, or bend and turn away - which is when the real drumming of hands usually stops the show.

Punching someone who never moves his head is EXACTLY like punching a framed photo on a wall that's situated head high. Despite the quick seal claps, it usually ends the same way. But I don't think this weakness is style related. I think it's no contact related.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 27, 2015)

Buka said:


> Many young Martial Artists, especially those with fast twitch muscle fibers, go through the "Dog and pony show" stage. Just like the young man featured in that clip. Eventually, someone will remove the board from his back and the invisible neck brace he's wearing, so his head isn't sitting atop the same place like a neon T-ball.
> 
> Or he'll get popped, which will stun him at first, but he'll butch up for a second and get popped again harder......which is when he'll either bend at the waist, for what he perceives as a safe haven, or bend and turn away - which is when the real drumming of hands usually stops the show.
> 
> Punching someone who never moves his head is EXACTLY like punching a framed photo on a wall that's situated head high. Despite the quick seal claps, it usually ends the same way. But I don't think this weakness is style related. I think it's no contact related.


Bad videos don't prove anything but what the star of the video know about their art.


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## Buka (Jan 27, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Bad videos don't prove anything but what the star of the video know about their art.



I completely agree. And I've had my *** handed to me by so many Kenpo guys I've lost count. Not one of them kept their head right there for the asking. Oh, how I wish they had.


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## Hanzou (Jan 27, 2015)

hoshin1600 said:


> incredible head movement with the bob and weave.  that is something i could never really get.



Me neither. 

That's why I went to grappling.


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 27, 2015)

The thing is that I wasn't trying to prove anything.  I did a random Google search for kenpo and that's what came up. I used them as examples of things I don't like. If someone thinks they are "bad examples" then we agree.  The OP asked what was wrong with kenpo. I preferred not to bash the system and only point out things I often see and don't like.  I used Larry Tatum on purpose because he is a well known high ranked instructor.. so your saying he is not representative of the style? That the video he produced was a bad example? He thought it  was good, he did put his name on it and sell it to the mass market.


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 27, 2015)

The clips I posted my not be representative of  YOUR art but I used mutiple sources and random samples so they ARE a good representation of what kenpo is in general. I did not go through 100 good videos to find the one or two exceptions to skew and present a spin on the system.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 27, 2015)

hoshin1600 said:


> The thing is that I wasn't trying to prove anything.  I did a random Google search for kenpo and that's what came up. I used them as examples of things I don't like. If someone thinks they are "bad examples" then we agree.  The OP asked what was wrong with kenpo. I preferred not to bash the system and only point out things I often see and don't like.  I used Larry Tatum on purpose because he is a well known high ranked instructor.. so your saying he is not representative of the style? That the video he produced was a bad example? He thought it  was good, he did put his name on it and sell it to the mass market.


The techniques are just one part of the art. He sells a package, and I think his moves look fine for what he is doing. There is a body standing just a bit too far away; so, you have an idea of where these strikes go. In real life, however, your opponent is bleeding and squirming and hitting back. Sometime they go areal. You won't see that in his vids. They are limited in that respect. So, no, that is in no way a representation of fighting, but they were beautiful technique sequences, Mini Forms, if you will.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 27, 2015)

hoshin1600 said:


> The clips I posted my not be representative of  YOUR art but I used mutiple sources and random samples so they ARE a good representation of what kenpo is in general. I did not go through 100 good videos to find the one or two exceptions to skew and present a spin on the system.


There is a disconnect here, but I need to leave, just now, but I will say those vids were of people practicing memorized sequences of motion, and is not Kenpo fighting.


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## drop bear (Jan 27, 2015)

Buka said:


> Many young Martial Artists, especially those with fast twitch muscle fibers, go through the "Dog and pony show" stage. Just like the young man featured in that clip. Eventually, someone will remove the board from his back and the invisible neck brace he's wearing, so his head isn't sitting atop the same place like a neon T-ball.
> 
> Or he'll get popped, which will stun him at first, but he'll butch up for a second and get popped again harder......which is when he'll either bend at the waist, for what he perceives as a safe haven, or bend and turn away - which is when the real drumming of hands usually stops the show.
> 
> Punching someone who never moves his head is EXACTLY like punching a framed photo on a wall that's situated head high. Despite the quick seal claps, it usually ends the same way. But I don't think this weakness is style related. I think it's no contact related.



sort of. Some styles of Thai don't have much head movement. But the do angle in and out which makes up for it.






now if you are like that kempo vid and combine no and bad head movement with no footwork. Then yes you would want a pretty iron chin.






So you could probably neaten up that kempo without demanding they become boxers. A lot of their structure does not seem logical at its finer points.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 27, 2015)

drop bear said:


> sort of. Some styles of Thai don't have much head movement. But the do angle in and out which makes up for it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Holy Cow! No. Boxing is the complete opposite of the finer points of Kempo.


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## drop bear (Jan 27, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Holy Cow! No. Boxing is the complete opposite of the finer points of Kempo.



Only if you think boxing is jab,cross,hook,uppercut.

So for example in that kempo vid. The guy slips backwards. Now i cant tell you that unless you have kicked at the same time. Someone will eventually figure out that you just cant keep doing that. And will bash you.

so you would employ a common principle of boxing and do something else.

But then you don't have to follow a boxing alternative you can do your own thing achieving the same result.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 27, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Only if you think boxing is jab,cross,hook,uppercut.
> 
> So for example in that kempo vid. The guy slips backwards. Now i cant tell you that unless you have kicked at the same time. Someone will eventually figure out that you just cant keep doing that. And will bash you.
> 
> ...


Boxing is the finer points of one range, and Kenpo is supposed to be the finer points of every range. That means you are correct at one range but wrong on the others; so, Like Benny The Jet Urquidez says, "At wrestling range I'm a wrestler; at boxing range I'm a boxer; at kicking range, I am TKD". It was a very diplomatic thing to say but there was a Kenpo truth in that statement.


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## drop bear (Jan 27, 2015)

In fact having a think. You could combine that kempo drill with maywhethers. In that he fires his first shot. Then you go all combination on him. He fires a second shot where you evade shift angles and come back in.

Now you haven't changed the style just addressed two issues with it. 

What if he actually fights back?

What if you are the one eating the flurry of shots.


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## drop bear (Jan 27, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Boxing is the finer points of one range, and Kenpo is supposed to be the finer points of every range. That means you are correct at one range but wrong on the others; so, Like Benny The Jet Urquidez says, "At wrestling range I'm a wrestler; at boxing range I'm a boxer; at kicking range, I am TKD". It was a very diplomatic thing to say but there was a Kenpo truth in that statement.



ok lets look at this boxing exit strategy ideas.





why would the concepts not work at kicking and wrestling ranges?

Could you apply those exits to kempo?


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 27, 2015)

drop bear said:


> ok lets look at this boxing exit strategy ideas.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I would call those Kenpo front covers with a very bad angle on the back foot.


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## drop bear (Jan 27, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> I would call those Kenpo front covers with a very bad angle on the back foot.



provided you can make those direction changes when you need them. The back foot does not matter.
(for this discussion)


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 27, 2015)

drop bear said:


> provided you can make those direction changes when you need them. The back foot does not matter.
> (for this discussion)


Oh, hell no.  You'd be surprised at what a little directional harmony can do for your kenpo.


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## Tiger84 (Jul 13, 2016)

kuniggety said:


> I'm not a Kempoist but my guess is that the black belt marks the point where one becomes a teacher of the art. I don't find it that unreasonable to test someone on their knowledge of the history, philosophy, dynamics, and points of contention of the system before they are deemed a "representative" of the art.


Black belt marks the beginning of your true journey. Just think of it as an advanced white belt, being the study of motion there is always something new to learn.


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## Tiger84 (Jul 13, 2016)

Mark P said:


> It is those severe criticisms that I am looking for.   I hear people say things about the self defense techniques being unrealistic due to the attackers just throwing out a punch and standing there.  Or Kenpo guys hit themselves and stomp around too much.  Things along those lines are what I am going to try and find ways to improve upon.  Thanks for taking the time to respond.


they're "ideal phase techniques" take what you learned and apply them to sparring. I swear there seems to be no proper guidance these days


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## Tiger84 (Jul 13, 2016)

drop bear said:


> why would that be? If kempo is so rigid you can't bolt on a concept that might be an issue.


Kenpoists like to keep their feet on the ground and we generally don't kick above the waist for that reason but as long as you follow the rules I'm sure you could stick in some high kicks.


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## Tiger84 (Jul 13, 2016)

Mark P said:


> Should every black belt be able to teach?


You'd be surprised what you can learn by teaching others.


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## Blindside (Jul 13, 2016)

Tiger84 said:


> they're "ideal phase techniques" take what you learned and apply them to sparring. I swear there seems to be no proper guidance these days



Please show some video examples of kenpoists sparring, preferably with reasonable contact that looks vaguely like ideal phase techniques.


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## Tiger84 (Jul 13, 2016)

Blindside said:


> Please show some video examples of kenpoists sparring, preferably with reasonable contact that looks vaguely like ideal phase techniques.


That would be hard to do since no one is recording themselves doing it. It is unreasonable to think your going to pull off an entire technique while sparing. That is not the lesson to be learned here, ideal phase is exactly that... Ideal. Your not going to get a setup while sparring that is going to look exactly like a technique, however you should be able to recognize the position you're in and act accordingly. We learn the techniques so we can pull them apart and use whatever fits moment to moment. If you get them to commit enough to the attack you may end up with something that looks like a blend of a couple different techniques. Really the only decent thing I can find online that sorta tackles this is a video of a guy using a flow drill to gain an entrance on his opponent to stick in standard-ish techniques.


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## Blindside (Jul 13, 2016)

Tiger84 said:


> That would be hard to do since no one is recording themselves doing it. It is unreasonable to think your going to pull off an entire technique while sparing. That is not the lesson to be learned here, ideal phase is exactly that... Ideal. Your not going to get a setup while sparring that is going to look exactly like a technique, however you should be able to recognize the position you're in and act accordingly. We learn the techniques so we can pull them apart and use whatever fits moment to moment. If you get them to commit enough to the attack you may end up with something that looks like a blend of a couple different techniques. Really the only decent thing I can find online that sorta tackles this is a video of a guy using a flow drill to gain an entrance on his opponent to stick in standard-ish techniques.



Why isn't anyone recording what they are doing?  Lots of people film their sparring now.  I film all of my guys sparring matches so that they can go back and review and we can talk about what was good or bad.  

I went to Kali after Kenpo, well, more like Kali took over from Kenpo, but whatever.  I am a huge proponent of the energy drill as an intermediary training step between technique practice and sparring.  I pointed out Zach Whitson's old "Kenpo Counterpoint" DVD as a benefit to a Kenpoist, he basically took his knowledge of Pekiti-Tirsia Kali energy drills and fused them with AK techniques, showing how to train it in this method.  But because many Kenpoists don't get this intermediary step they have to jump straight from technique to sparring and it usually comes out poorly.


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## Tiger84 (Jul 13, 2016)

Blindside said:


> Why isn't anyone recording what they are doing?  Lots of people film their sparring now.  I film all of my guys sparring matches so that they can go back and review and we can talk about what was good or bad.
> 
> I went to Kali after Kenpo, well, more like Kali took over from Kenpo, but whatever.  I am a huge proponent of the energy drill as an intermediary training step between technique practice and sparring.  I pointed out Zach Whitson's old "Kenpo Counterpoint" DVD as a benefit to a Kenpoist, he basically took his knowledge of Pekiti-Tirsia Kali energy drills and fused them with AK techniques, showing how to train it in this method.  But because many Kenpoists don't get this intermediary step they have to jump straight from technique to sparring and it usually comes out poorly.


Uh... Well, I couldn't say why other people aren't recording their sparring but for me there isn't any benifit unless I'm studying someone else to beat them. I do record myself doing forms but that's to look at my posture, weapon formation etc. but they're for training and not on the Internet. The bridge you speak of is in spontaneous techniques and freestyle techniques ,the flow drills can help with that as well. Sparring isn't about being "correct" it's about not getting hit (rule 1 don't block with your face). If students aren't getting this training then that's just really sad but ultimately it eventually becomes the students responsibility to start figuring stuff out for themselves. You have to make it "yours" and Mr. Parker didn't want a bunch of Parker clones, he wanted everyone to think for themselves and make it unique to them and if that means branching out to other systems that's just fine. Kenpo is a mixture of different systems anyway so looking elsewhere isn't discouraged, as long as you've properly learned the rules and concepts in the first place. One cannot just waive a wand and make everyone a good martial artist, it take many years of hard work and thought. If you do Kenpo long enough you should figure out that is all in the system if you know where to look. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.


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## Michael Loughrie12343 (Jul 13, 2016)

I don't know.


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## Blindside (Jul 13, 2016)

Tiger84 said:


> Uh... Well, I couldn't say why other people aren't recording their sparring but for me there isn't any benifit unless I'm studying someone else to beat them.



You watch yourself sparring to figure out what you are doing wrong.  Are you telegraphing?  How are you telegraphing?  How is your footwork?  Distance control?  Do you rely on one combination all the time, making you predictable?  Are you getting good power into your reverse punch?  Every professional sport films their players in practice and in action to critique later, it is an incredibly useful tool, it gives you that third person perspective that you can't see when you are doing it.  



Tiger84 said:


> One cannot just waive a wand and make everyone a good martial artist, it take many years of hard work and thought. If you do Kenpo long enough you should figure out that is all in the system if you know where to look. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.



But even the senior instructors don't make their kenpo look like the training techniques when they spar.  Kickboxers don't look totally different from the way they train than the way they fight.  Nor Judoka, wrestlers, boxers, fencers, or most of the HEMA guys.  Why is it the Kenpo guys look so different?  What does that say about the training method?


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## Tames D (Jul 14, 2016)

What is wrong with American Kenpo? I cross trained in it for awhile. Overall I like it. But to answer the OP's question:

Working a technique on an opponent that stands still sucks. React to the attack for Gods sake.
Memorize a million techniques. And remember them all at each grading. Really?
Too many 10th degree black belts that have no business wearing one around their waist.
The old school Buffet Table. You Kenpo guys know what I'm talking about.


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## Blindside (Jul 14, 2016)

Tames D said:


> .
> 
> The old school Buffet Table. You Kenpo guys know what I'm talking about.



You have to develop your back up mass!


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## Tames D (Jul 14, 2016)

Blindside said:


> You have to develop your back up mass!


Absolutely. The chinese restaurants in Pasadena made a killing...


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## Tez3 (Jul 14, 2016)

Is Kenpo always 'American' or is that an offshoot from something else? if this is going to start an argument please keep your insults witty and not personal.


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## Touch Of Death (Jul 14, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Is Kenpo always 'American' or is that an offshoot from something else? if this is going to start an argument please keep your insults witty and not personal.


Kenpo means, Hands Of China, Like Qin-Po, or Chin-Po; and especially Kem-Po; so, it is essentially a way of saying that Kung Fu stuff from China. You study a variation yourself. Just put your styles name before the word Kenpo, and there ya go.


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## Touch Of Death (Jul 14, 2016)

Touch Of Death said:


> Kenpo means, Hands Of China, Like Qin-Po, or Chin-Po; and especially Kem-Po; so, it is essentially a way of saying that Kung Fu stuff from China. You study a variation yourself. Just put your styles name before the word Kenpo, and there ya go.


Before anyone freaks out, I means the Laws that govern the use of that kung-fu stuff from China.


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## Touch Of Death (Jul 14, 2016)

I will say this, nobody doubts it when a guy comes, on here, and says, he learned some bad Kenpo.


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 14, 2016)

Touch Of Death said:


> I will say this, nobody doubts it when a guy comes, on here, and says, he learned some bad Kenpo.



Nobody doubts it when a person comes on here and says they learned some bad [insert name of any art here] either. Because bad teachers exist in every art.


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## hoshin1600 (Jul 14, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Is Kenpo always 'American' or is that an offshoot from something else? if this is going to start an argument please keep your insults witty and not personal.


If I understand your question correctly, ,
Kenpo is an actual Japanese word but it is also the common venacular used for the style with roots back to William chow. Therefore it is an American art since it was created by chow in Hawaii . But there are so many branches and organisation's it's crazy. To my knowledge one branch decided to call itself American kenpo.


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## hoshin1600 (Jul 14, 2016)

Also some branches refer to their organization as kempo which is a spelling of a verbal pronunciation in Japanese grammar.
To muddy the water even more there is an authentic style of okinawan kempo which is not related at all and I have heard of people calling their system American to distinguish between the two


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