# Improving kick power/strength



## ladolcevita (Apr 26, 2017)

Hey all,

I'm a female who's just got back into TKD.

When kicking the strike shield during class, my kicks feel so weak (especially in the front kick). My partner will usually tell me to kick them harder but I actually can't do it any more powerful - which I hate!

All in all, I actually have very very strong legs but when it comes to kicking it's quite wimpy.

I'm going to buy a padded strike shield to use at home but are there any specific exercises which are great for increasing kick power (with focus on the front kick)? And any exercises that I could do in the gym?

Thanks


----------



## jobo (Apr 26, 2017)

ladolcevita said:


> Hey all,
> 
> I'm a female who's just got back into TKD.
> 
> ...


the weakness' is in the nervous system, its about teaching the mucles to fire at the right time ,in the right sequence and activate the correct muscle fibres, to develop the power you want, allowing that you have reasonably developed muscles in the first place.

practise practise and a bit more practise. But not endless kicking of a bag,which will only work the slow twitch muscle fibres, focus on single kicks with power that work the fast twitch fibres,kicking a soccer ball may well help as will box jumping


----------



## BuckerooBonzai (Apr 26, 2017)

You're probably going to get a 1,001 replies and most likely 1,000 different answers but I would have to say that it really comes down to technique more than strength any day. 

I have seen so many students that do NOT have great leg strength but still have great power in their kicks.  It's all about generating the force (not Star Wars force!) but the F=ma force.  Speed and technique beats brute strength every day in my experience.

So, bottom line, develop the technique and hone the technique and the power will come.


----------



## jobo (Apr 26, 2017)

BuckerooBonzai said:


> You're probably going to get a 1,001 replies and most likely 1,000 different answers but I would have to say that it really comes down to technique more than strength any day.
> 
> I have seen so many students that do NOT have great leg strength but still have great power in their kicks.  It's all about generating the force (not Star Wars force!) but the F=ma force.  Speed and technique beats brute strength every day in my experience.
> 
> So, bottom line, develop the technique and hone the technique and the power will come.


 I often see that quoted but is the wrong formula for body mechanics, you should use kinetic energy, which equals 1/2 x mass x velocity squared


----------



## BuckerooBonzai (Apr 26, 2017)

jobo said:


> I often see that quoted but is the wrong formula for body mechanics, you should use kinetic energy, which equals 1/2 x mass x velocity squared



Good to know!  Thanks!

(still say the answer lies in the technique more than the muscle mass, though!  )


----------



## yak sao (Apr 26, 2017)

Try this... kick a heavy bag at chest height, with full speed. Then throw the same kick as slowly as you can.
 Notice it's much harder to throw the second kick. This is because most people rely on momentum to throw their kicks, which isn't necessarily a.bad thing, but if you learn to use the muscles as well as the momentum then you will have a much stronger kick.
So I would suggest not only spending time practicing kicks fast and powerful, but also slowly, paying attention to technique.


----------



## Jedmus (Apr 26, 2017)

As has already been said and I'm sure many others will say, you should first improve your technique. With good technique comes good power.

 I have much better technique with my left leg but my right is a lot stronger. As expected, being hit with kicks from my left leg is a lot more painful than my right.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Apr 26, 2017)

As others have said, the problem you are having is almost certainly with your technique rather than with your leg strength.

Without video of you performing your kicks, none of us can tell you what you need to change in order to improve your power.

Practice helps, but if you don't understand
a) how the power should be generated in the kick and
b) what you are currently doing in an attempt to generate power and how that differs from a, then your progress will be slow.

This is where your instructor can be a big help. If your teacher can explain to you what you need to do in order to improve your kicking power, then you have something to focus on while you practice reps of your kicks.

Yak sao's suggestion about practicing kicks slowly is also good. Slow kicks won't directly improve your power. What they _will_ do is improve your balance and control so that those factors don't get in your way when you are practicing your full power kicks.


----------



## jobo (Apr 26, 2017)

BuckerooBonzai said:


> Good to know!  Thanks!
> 
> (still say the answer lies in the technique more than the muscle mass, though!  )


I'm not disagreeing , were saying the same thing,in a different way, you saying develop the techneque, I'm saying develop your nervous system to deliver the techneque. It's the same

you body will naturally select the least amount of slow twitch fibres it can to do what ever you require of it. You shouldn't be aiming to kick your oppoinent, you should be aiming to kick a hole in them, ie aiming for a point a foot behind them, as you would it you were trying to kick a door in. Or if a soccer ball by kicking through the object not stopping on contact. Then you body recruits fast twitch fibres to deliver the power necessary, you do that by practise so you nervous system knows which fibres' to recruit and get efficient at timing their deployment. That is the techneque

I have low round house that will knock most people over, thats come from years of kicking footballs and a side kick that wouldn't trouble a rice pudding, which I'm working on


----------



## marques (Apr 26, 2017)

All kicks are very much about balance, hip movement and stability. Front kick is very much about pushing (at least the most popular version to the body).

I found that pushing the target, no matter which kick, gives me balance, stability and coordination. Then power comes with speed. Final stage, a balance between pushing, impulse and inertia according to the kick and target.


----------



## marques (Apr 26, 2017)

jobo said:


> I often see that quoted but is the wrong formula for body mechanics, you should use kinetic energy, which equals 1/2 x mass x velocity squared


The thing is often the vector velocity is not in the right direction when meet the target. So the kinetic energy is wasted.

Even being engineer, I prefer the empirical evidence rather than messing with energy, force, power... equations during training. In practice, there is always more than a simple equation...


----------



## jobo (Apr 26, 2017)

marques said:


> The thing is often the vector velocity is not in the right direction when meet the target. So the kinetic energy is wasted.
> 
> Even being engineer, I prefer the empirical evidence rather than messing with energy, force, power... equations during training. In practice, there is always more than a simple equation...


if you mean its a) pointless trying to work it out and b) far more complex than that as the mass is dependent on how much of your body weight you can transfer in to the blow, I agree, but its still a good idea to quote the correct formula if your quoting one at all


----------



## marques (Apr 26, 2017)

jobo said:


> if you mean its a) pointless trying to work it out and b) far more complex than that as the mass is dependent on how much of your body weight you can transfer in to the blow, I agree, but its still a good idea to quote the correct formula if your quoting one at all


Don't get me wrong. This is a fascinating field. I just feel I would need a PhD in biomechanics to apply equations properly to the human movement. Maybe equations help some of us more than me. I feel better on the empiric way, so far.


----------



## ladolcevita (Apr 27, 2017)

Hey guys, thanks so much for taking the time to reply 

So the general consensus is that the power lies in the technique foremost.

My technique is actually OK with the side kicks (I can get a really good pivot/momentum going) and I can stay in a chamber position for a long time when practicing slowly. So, I've got decent control over my body (even lifting the knee for a front kick is fine). In fact, I'd say my side kicks are very strong (I partnered with the teacher and he said it winded him).

But the release or "snap" from the lower leg in a front kick is another story. I couldn't make jelly wobble. For example, my partner is coming towards me with the strike shield and I'm supposed to kick/push them away with a front kick - but my snap of the kick is so pathetic that they barely move backwards.

I've asked my teacher for advice and he has showed me what to do (toes back, and push as though you're trying to push your foot through the opponent, etc) but the rest is down to me.

So what's the technique in a front-kick that makes it more powerful? How can you increase hip mobility/strength, and what exercises have helped you with your technique too?

Also, would plyometrics help at all?

Thanks


----------



## jobo (Apr 27, 2017)

ladolcevita said:


> Hey guys, thanks so much for taking the time to reply
> 
> So the general consensus is that the power lies in the technique foremost.
> 
> ...


its hard to say with out seeing your kick, to get max power to need to be moving forward, to transfer your momentum into the kick,so its a whole body movement your looking for. Try standing kicking distance from a wall, and try to kick a hole in it,( use bouncy shoes). Sp left foot forwards, bring your right foot through and use your body movement to smash the foot in to the wall You can tell by feel and noise how much power you transfered, then do it walking towards the wall to work on your distance timing
it depends what you mean by plyometrics,the term is misused for any fast movement, it should be, usethe eccentric muscle whilst the concentric is busy( or vice versa) , so jumping off a box and whilst the concentric is providing a shock absorber, immediately jump again. You actually trying to push the earth down. This trains you nervious system to power through obstruction rather than protect its self by turning the power off, It is to some regard what your doing with the wall kick activating the eccentric when your body wants to use the concentric to lessen the shock

but that said just ordinary jumping is good as well to get your muscles firing in sequence

as for hip mobility, I'm working on that as well, lots of mobility rather than stretching exercises is the way to go


----------



## Touch Of Death (Apr 27, 2017)

ladolcevita said:


> Hey guys, thanks so much for taking the time to reply
> 
> So the general consensus is that the power lies in the technique foremost.
> 
> ...


My advice for the front kick for power is to quickly pick up your heel, as fast as the knee, as a unit, This will increase distance traveled. Secondly, forget balance. The bad guy will catch your momentum.


----------



## drop bear (Apr 27, 2017)

Yeah. dont push through your oponant. That is sometimes misleading
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Front kick power is kind of how long and how fast it moves horizontally.
So you pick your foot up aim it at the target. It is then the distance it will travel from there to your target.

Interestingly the harder you try to kick the closer you want to get to the target decreasing that power.

The general common mistake is landing to close then giving the target some allmighty push at the point of impact. Which wastes a lot of energy and does sweet fanny adams.

So dont try to kick as hard. Try to hit the target with a speedy pop rather than a push. And kick from further away.

You will see the leg is almost straight.
​


----------



## jobo (Apr 27, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Yeah. dont push through your oponant. That is sometimes misleading
> 
> 
> 
> ...


how long the kick has traveled has no bearing at all on how much energy is generated,


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 27, 2017)

ladolcevita said:


> Hey guys, thanks so much for taking the time to reply
> 
> So the general consensus is that the power lies in the technique foremost.
> 
> ...



So I'm not sure if this will make sense, but it might help to change how you're thinking about it, rather than focusing on the snap. The "snap" idea to me is much less useful for a front ball kick than a side kick. Instead, there are two ways that I think are better. The first is you lift your foot, then propel it to the source as if it was a magnet behind your target. Your foot is just getting dragged along by a more powerful force that you are imagining. If that's too tough to imagine, think of it as if you're pushing your leg. But instead of just pushing once you hit the target, you're pushing through the air with as much force as you can, and continuing that force after you hit the target.

The reason I'm suggesting this is one thing I notice with the snap is that it results in people trying to generate a lot of power in one instance (when the snap starts, or when there is impact), but that doesn't work. There needs to be power from the second your foot is aimed until after the kick is completed. Otherwise it will do diddly-squat.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Apr 27, 2017)

jobo said:


> how long the kick has traveled has no bearing at all on how much energy is generated,


Ha!


----------



## Touch Of Death (Apr 27, 2017)

jobo said:


> how long the kick has traveled has no bearing at all on how much energy is generated,


Speed is increased, and speed helps.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Apr 27, 2017)

jobo said:


> how long the kick has traveled has no bearing at all on how much energy is generated,



Physics
work = force x distance


----------



## Touch Of Death (Apr 27, 2017)

All I am saying is don't roll off, half cocked. It is not just an expression.


----------



## jobo (Apr 27, 2017)

Xue Sheng said:


> Physics
> work = force x distance


that's this distance you move the person/ thing you are kicking, not the distance you move your leg in order to kick


----------



## jobo (Apr 27, 2017)

Touch Of Death said:


> Speed is increased, and speed helps.


not necessarily, it could travel a long way at a slowish speed or a shorter distance at a higher speed.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Apr 27, 2017)

jobo said:


> not necessarily, it could travel a long way at a slowish speed or a shorter distance at a higher speed.


You could "What If", it to death, of course.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Apr 27, 2017)

jobo said:


> that's this distance you move the person/ thing you are kicking, not the distance you move your leg in order to kick


So, a car hits you a five miles an hour from two inches. Do you wan to try two miles?


----------



## jobo (Apr 27, 2017)

jobo said:


> that's this distance you move the person/ thing you are kicking, not the distance you move your leg in order to kick



you could work out the work done in moving your leg, but that would be the work done by you and having moved your leg further you would have consumed more calories, but not put any more energy in to your target


----------



## Touch Of Death (Apr 27, 2017)

jobo said:


> you could work out the work done in moving your leg, but that would be the work done by you and having moved your leg further you would have consumed more calories, but not put any more energy in to your target


Lies!


----------



## Touch Of Death (Apr 27, 2017)

Pick up your foot, or stay slow.


----------



## jobo (Apr 27, 2017)

Touch Of Death said:


> So, a car hits you a five miles an hour from two inches. Do you wan to try two miles?


the distance is irrelevant, its the speed of the car and its mass that matters. If you locking the speed at 5mph it doesn't matter if its rolled a meter. Or a mile, its still only doing 5mph and still only weighs 2tons


----------



## Xue Sheng (Apr 27, 2017)

jobo said:


> that's this distance you move the person/ thing you are kicking, not the distance you move your leg in order to kick



 Nope, distance force travels

For instance, if a model airplane exerts 0.25 Newtons over a distance of *10 meters*, the plane will expend 2.5 Joules. If you apply a force over a given distance - you have done work. Work = Change in Energy. If an object's kinetic energy or gravitational potential energy changes, then work is done.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Apr 27, 2017)

jobo said:


> the distance is irrelevant, its the speed of the car and its mass that matters. If you locking the speed at 5mph it doesn't matter if its rolled a meter. Or a mile, its still only doing 5mph and still only weighs 2tons


Yes, it will have increases speed, even on a coast. The further the faster.


----------



## jobo (Apr 27, 2017)

Xue Sheng said:


> Nope, distance force travels
> 
> For instance, if a model airplane exerts 0.25 Newtons over a distance of *10 meters*, the plane will expend 2.5 Joules. If you apply a force over a given distance - you have done work. Work = Change in Energy. If an object's kinetic energy or gravitational potential energy changes, then work is done.


but the engine is attached to the plane, it has to move with it, the person you are kicking isn't attached to your foot


----------



## jobo (Apr 27, 2017)

Touch Of Death said:


> Yes, it will have increases speed, even on a coast. The further the faster.


that's gaining speed through gravity, gravity is acting against a high kick.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Apr 27, 2017)

jobo said:


> but the engine is attached to the plane, it has to move with it, the person you are kicking isn't attached to your foot



You're understanding of "work = force X distance" is flawed, but you will never admit that, so in order to save additional multiple posts of proof you will ignore and thereby waste my time..... I'm done.... have a nice day


----------



## jobo (Apr 27, 2017)

Xue Sheng said:


> You're understanding of "work = force X distance" is flawed, but you will never admit that, so in order to save additional multiple posts of proof you will ignore and thereby waste my time..... I'm done.... have a nice day


or just realised your talking nonsense and left.
the work done in moving your leg along way, does not translate in to kinetic energy released in to your target


----------



## Touch Of Death (Apr 27, 2017)

jobo said:


> that's gaining speed through gravity, gravity is acting against a high kick.


I can't help you.


----------



## jobo (Apr 27, 2017)

Touch Of Death said:


> I can't help you.


I dont know if you just being deliberately obtuse, or obtuse.

the speed of the car when it hits you is important, if it ran 10meters down a steep slope or 100 meters down a gentle slope is irrelevant to the energy it hits you with


----------



## Touch Of Death (Apr 27, 2017)

jobo said:


> I dont know if you just being deliberately obtuse, or obtuse.
> 
> the speed of the car when it hits you is important, if it ran 10meters down a steep slope or 100 meters down a gentle slope is irrelevant to the energy it hits you with


Cock your kicks, or take your licks.


----------



## drop bear (Apr 27, 2017)

jobo said:


> I dont know if you just being deliberately obtuse, or obtuse.
> 
> the speed of the car when it hits you is important, if it ran 10meters down a steep slope or 100 meters down a gentle slope is irrelevant to the energy it hits you with



pretty sure the kick is accelerating

So get a car on the flat. put the foot down then keep standing further away.

So.
"Here we will take a look at the equation that allows us to solve for the final velocity when the object is constantly accelerating. That equation is:







This equation would read:

*Final velocity equals original velocity plus acceleration times time."*


----------



## Xue Sheng (Apr 27, 2017)

jobo said:


> or just realised your talking nonsense and left.
> the work done in moving your leg along way, does not translate in to kinetic energy released in to your target



Ok I will allow you to waste my time one last time here to answer this.. nice use of kinetic energy to make it sound like you know what you are saying..... but still wrong. And for the record...kinetic energy IS energy that a body possesses by virtue of being in motion. but it is the amount of energy that can increase over distance with force is applied.

So you are wrong again, I have studied physics, which by your response I am guessing you have no..... please continue to try and sound like you know what you are talking about... its amusing.....but understand that here, you do not.....have a nice day..... I'm out...and I will no allow you to waste my time any longer here.

And now I await the responses from the "hypocritical lords of web etiquette" who lurk on MT these days


----------



## Touch Of Death (Apr 27, 2017)

Forgetting kicks for a second, the way the martial arts works is that you will always be better off if your are in a position to do what you want to do. There is, real, actual, scientific evidence, some where, that says a cocked weapon is more useful than an un-cocked weapon.


----------



## jobo (Apr 27, 2017)

Xue Sheng said:


> Ok I will allow you to waste my time one last time here to answer this.. nice use of kinetic energy to make it sound like you know what you are saying..... but still wrong. And for the record...kinetic energy IS energy that a body possesses by virtue of being in motion. but it is the amount of energy that can increase over distance with force is applied.
> 
> So you are wrong again, I have studied physics, which by your response I am guessing you have no..... please continue to try and sound like you know what you are talking about... its amusing.....but understand that here, you do not.....have a nice day..... I'm out...and I will no allow you to waste my time any longer here.
> 
> And now I await the responses from the "hypocritical lords of web etiquette" who lurk on MT these days


the formula for kinetic energy includes nether distance or force, . So nether have any bearing on it. Didn't they explain this to you when you studied(sic) physics


----------



## Touch Of Death (Apr 27, 2017)

jobo said:


> the formula for kinetic energy includes nether distance or force, . So nether have any bearing on it. Didn't they explain this to you when you studied(sic) physics


How old are you?


----------



## jobo (Apr 27, 2017)

drop bear said:


> pretty sure the kick is accelerating
> 
> So get a car on the flat. put the foot down then keep standing further away.
> 
> ...


the rate of acceleration is of no matter, its just the velocity at contact that matters


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 27, 2017)

jobo said:


> the rate of acceleration is of no matter, its just the velocity at contact that matters


But if you are farther away, there will be more time for acceleration, which results in higher velocity at contact.


----------



## drop bear (Apr 27, 2017)

jobo said:


> the rate of acceleration is of no matter, its just the velocity at contact that matters



And you dont think the rate of acceleration effects the velocity at contact?


----------



## jobo (Apr 27, 2017)

kempodisciple said:


> But if you are farther away, there will be more time for acceleration, which results in higher velocity at contact.


that depends how quickly you can get your leg up to its maximum speed, if its traveling a max velocity after 6 inches that it no more acceleration. ,


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 27, 2017)

jobo said:


> that depends how quickly you can get your leg up to its maximum speed


If you can get your leg to the maximum speed it could possibly move in the length of a kick, then you don't have to worry about any of this. You would also probably exist in a kung fu movie or an anime, not real life.


----------



## jobo (Apr 27, 2017)

kempodisciple said:


> If you can get your leg to the maximum speed it could possibly move in the length of a kick, then you don't have to worry about any of this. You would also probably exist in a kung fu movie or an anime, not real life.


we are talking. About its max velocity under its own power whilst performing a front kick, not how fast it can go on a jet fighter


----------



## Touch Of Death (Apr 27, 2017)

jobo said:


> we are talking. About its max velocity under its own power whilst performing a front kick, not how fast it can go on a jet fighter


Oh...


----------



## drop bear (Apr 27, 2017)

jobo said:


> that depends how quickly you can get your leg up to its maximum speed, if its traveling a max velocity after 6 inches that it no more acceleration. ,



Why would your kick that you are pushing the whole time. Get to its maximum acceleration after 6 inches?

As long as you are kicking that kick should be going faster.


----------



## drop bear (Apr 27, 2017)

kempodisciple said:


> If you can get your leg to the maximum speed it could possibly move in the length of a kick, then you don't have to worry about any of this. You would also probably exist in a kung fu movie or an anime, not real life.



Because we are only talking a hundred K,s an hour at most. 

There is never going to be an issue of terminal velocity. Acceleration will only stop when you run out of leg.


----------



## jobo (Apr 27, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Because we are only talking a hundred K,s an hour at most.
> 
> There is never going to be an issue of terminal velocity. Acceleration will only stop when you run out of leg.


its maximum velocity, terminal velocity is something else entirely . You leg would reach terminal velocity if you sawed to off and dropped of the empire state building


----------



## drop bear (Apr 27, 2017)

jobo said:


> its maximum velocity, terminal velocity is something else entirely . You leg would reach terminal velocity if you sawed to off and dropped of the empire state building



Ok. So why has the kick reached maximum velocity at any point other than the full extention of the kick?


----------



## Touch Of Death (Apr 27, 2017)

Here, Kick like her.


----------



## jobo (Apr 27, 2017)

jobo said:


> its maximum velocity, terminal velocity is something else entirely . You leg would reach terminal velocity if you sawed to off and dropped of the empire state building





drop bear said:


> Ok. So why has the kick reached maximum velocity at any point other than the full extention of the kick?



come on mate, its pointless discussing physics with someone who gets mixed up between max velocity and terminal velocity.
if you think you can prove constant acceleration through out a kick, then go a head, I'm waiting


----------



## drop bear (Apr 27, 2017)

jobo said:


> come on mate, its pointless discussing physics with someone who gets mixed up between max velocity and terminal velocity.
> if you think you can prove constant acceleration through out a kick, then go a head, I'm waiting



My point was there is no terminal velocity. There is no reason the kick would stop accelerating.

I would have thought constant acceleration throughout the kick would be the obvious conclusion. Not six inches of acceleration and then for no reason at all having that acceleration stop.

That is my point about terminal velocity if I am kicking that action accelerates the kick. That kickng procces continues throughout the kick untill I run out of leg.

You 6 inches of mystery change to the kick is a lot harder to explain.

If i can be bothered i am pretty sure I can find the physics reflected in a lot of swinging impact movement.

Golf backswings would be a good example.


----------



## jobo (Apr 27, 2017)

drop bear said:


> My point was there is no terminal velocity. There is no reason the kick would stop accelerating.
> 
> I would have thought constant acceleration throughout the kick would be the obvious conclusion. Not six inches of acceleration and then for no reason at all having that acceleration stop.
> 
> ...


you back to calling it terminal velocity Again, do you know what terminal velocity is? Clearly not, if you don't know that, then you won't understand any explanation given

if you are claiming that a kick keeps accelerating till contact then YOU prove it


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 27, 2017)

drop bear said:


> My point was there is no terminal velocity. There is no reason the kick would stop accelerating.
> 
> I would have thought constant acceleration throughout the kick would be the obvious conclusion. Not six inches of acceleration and then for no reason at all having that acceleration stop.
> 
> ...





jobo said:


> you back to calling it terminal velocity Again, do you know what terminal velocity is? Clearly not, if you don't know that, then you won't understand any explanation given
> 
> if you are claiming that a kick keeps accelerating till contact then YOU prove it



Why don't neither of you prove it? 

But seriously, I think it's much more logical to assume you will keep accelerating, then that you will suddenly stop accelerating mid kick. In that case, the person coming from the illogical sounding position should have to prove why their theory would be correct. The logical-sounding position can support it with just logic.


----------



## jobo (Apr 27, 2017)

kempodisciple said:


> Why don't neither of you prove it?
> 
> But seriously, I think it's much more logical to assume you will keep accelerating, then that you will suddenly stop accelerating mid kick. In that case, the person coming from the illogical sounding position should have to prove why their theory would be correct. The logical-sounding position can support it with just logic.


but that's not in fact logical. If I throw a ball it doesnt keep accelerating till it hits the target, does it, if I go flat out in my car it won't keep accelerating for ever. They accelerate and then move at a constant speed, then they decelerate

but this is,science and he has made a claim he can't support


----------



## drop bear (Apr 27, 2017)

jobo said:


> you back to calling it terminal velocity Again, do you know what terminal velocity is? Clearly not, if you don't know that, then you won't understand any explanation given
> 
> if you are claiming that a kick keeps accelerating till contact then YOU prove it


So what I can figure out there is an accelerometer attached to this girls foot.





we see a big spike of acceleration untill she hits the ball pretty much. There is no mystery deceleration after 6 inches.

More backswing more time to accelerate.


----------



## jobo (Apr 27, 2017)

drop bear said:


> So what I can figure out there is an accelerometer attached to this girls foot.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


????that's not a front kick is it, we ate unless you forgot discussing karate front kicks


----------



## drop bear (Apr 27, 2017)

jobo said:


> but that's not in fact logical. If I throw a ball it doesnt keep accelerating till it hits the target, does it, if I go flat out in my car it won't keep accelerating for ever. They accelerate and then move at a constant speed, then they decelerate
> 
> but this is,science and he has made a claim he can't support



Ok. If there is no force being applied to the ball Wind resistance will decelerate the ball.

There is continual force being aplied to the kick untill it hits or runs out of leg.

A car will eventuality run out of acceleration but a kick does not have the distance tho have this issue.


----------



## jobo (Apr 27, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Ok. If there is no force being applied to the ball Wind resistance will decelerate the ball.
> 
> There is continual force being aplied to the kick untill it hits or runs out of leg.
> 
> A car will eventuality run out of acceleration but a kick does not have the distance tho have this issue.


so there isn't a max speed your leg can reach?


----------



## drop bear (Apr 27, 2017)

jobo said:


> ????that's not a front kick is it, we ate unless you forgot discussing karate front kicks




Your grasping.


----------



## drop bear (Apr 27, 2017)

jobo said:


> so there isn't a max speed your leg can reach?



I am sure there is. But you are never getting close to terminal velocity.


----------



## jobo (Apr 27, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Your grasping.


----------



## jobo (Apr 27, 2017)

drop bear said:


> I am sure there is. But you are never getting close to terminal velocity.


terminal velocity is the speed an object reaches if dropped from a great height, is max velocity

so front karate kick, how fast can you leg move?


----------



## drop bear (Apr 27, 2017)

jobo said:


> terminal velocity is the speed an object reaches if dropped from a great height, is max velocity
> 
> so front karate kick, how fast can you leg move?



Same difference. And stuffed if I know. 

How are you faring with this idea that a kick suddenly stops accelerating?


----------



## Touch Of Death (Apr 27, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Same difference. And stuffed if I know.
> 
> How are you faring with this idea that a kick suddenly stops accelerating?


It does, but there is a sweet spot, well past six inches. After that your body will naturally try not to dislocate anything.


----------



## drop bear (Apr 27, 2017)

Touch Of Death said:


> It does, but there is a sweet spot, well past six inches. After that your body will naturally try not to dislocate anything.



Yeah but if you didn't have to worry about running out of leg the kick should keep accelerating well past the speed it gets up to.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 27, 2017)

jobo said:


> but that's not in fact logical. If I throw a ball it doesnt keep accelerating till it hits the target, does it, if I go flat out in my car it won't keep accelerating for ever. They accelerate and then move at a constant speed, then they decelerate
> 
> but this is,science and he has made a claim he can't support


After posting my response, I noticed dropbear provided you with as close to support as is reasonable (someone kicking and acceleration being measured) and you dismissed it because it is a different type of motion, with the same body structure. But you still refused to offer your own support that 6 seconds (or less) is max velocity. No point continuing the debate after that IMO.


----------



## JR 137 (Apr 27, 2017)

Wow.  Just... wow. 

@ladolcevita

Forget physics formulas and definitions.  When you're facing the kicking shield , all of that goes out the window.

If you want to hit hard, you've got to hit things.  The heavier the better.  Kicking shields and focus mitts aren't designed to increase power; they're designed to increase accuracy.  Get a heavy bag.  If you can't hang a heavy bag, get a freestanding bag like a Century wavemaster XXL or a BOB.

If all you've ever kicked is the air, your power being weak is expected imo.  The mechanics of kicking the air are different than kicking an object.  When kicking the air, you have to rely on your own muscles slowing your body down so you don't fall over.  When kicking a bag, you rely on the bag absorbing the force to keep you from falling down.

Your body is probably used to slowing itself down rather than letting go and following through correctly.  No other way to explain it other than hit a bag repeatedly and you'll feel exactly what I mean.

There are a lot of other things that can be robbing you of power too.  One could be your distance from the shield.  If you're too close or too far away, you're not in the sweet spot to hit with maximum power.  Even if you have flawless technique, distance will easily make or break your power.  Everyone's optimal distance is different, and every strike's optimal distance is different.

If your muscular strength is average (meaning not excessively weak) or better,  the biggest thing you'll end up training is your nervous system.  Hitting a bag will teach you to let go and strike through the bag.  It'll teach you to recruit more muscle fibers.  It'll teach you to loosen up certain areas and tighten up other areas, and when.

Again, hard to explain fully, but easy to feel once you get used to hitting a bag.  It doesn't happen in one or two sessions, but it does happen.  The more you hit the bag, the better you'll understand your body.  The bag provides excellent feedback that pretty much nothing else can replicate imo.

When I first started hitting a bag, I had a ton of very weak kicks.  I was shocked at how weak certain kicks were, especially front leg kicks.  After a few weeks they were noticeably stronger.  The more I kicked the bag, the stronger I got.

Sorry if I'm rambling.  If you want to hit harder (kicks, punches or anything else), you need to hit heavy things.  Not in a haphazard manner where you're going all out from day one, but in a progressive manner in which you're listening to your body.


----------



## jobo (Apr 28, 2017)

kempodisciple said:


> After posting my response, I noticed dropbear provided you with as close to support as is reasonable (someone kicking and acceleration being measured) and you dismissed it because it is a different type of motion, with the same body structure. But you still refused to offer your own support that 6 seconds (or less) is max velocity. No point continuing the debate after that IMO.


I said 6inches not six seconds and that was a suggestion were acceleration might stop with a front kick, he changed the whole debate from karate to soccer as that was the only you tube vid he could find

But you are correct on one point, that being that discussing physics with someone who gets inches and seconds confused is a bit pointless


----------



## Touch Of Death (Apr 28, 2017)

jobo said:


> I said 6inches not six seconds and that was a suggestion were acceleration might stop with a front kick, he changed the whole debate from karate to soccer as that was the only you tube vid he could find
> 
> But you are correct on one point, that being that discussing physics with someone who gets inches and seconds confused is a bit pointless


No. This conversation is pointless, for several reasons.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Apr 28, 2017)

There comes a point when you hit a wall. That wall being the person you are trying to teach, thinking they already know it. However, if you look at the numbers, most of the posters on this thread seem to agree with each other.


----------



## jobo (Apr 28, 2017)

Touch Of Death said:


> There comes a point when you hit a wall. That wall being the person you are trying to teach, thinking they already know it. However, if you look at the numbers, most of the posters on this thread seem to agree with each other.


well that's not surprising, there does seem to be a collective dimness about the forum, anyway I counted 3 one that doesn't know what terminal velocity is,one that gets confused between inches and minutes and you ,who doesn't seem to have an opinion of your own, just hitching on their coat tails


----------



## Touch Of Death (Apr 28, 2017)

jobo said:


> well that's not surprising, there does seem to be a collective dimness about the forum, anyway I counted 3 one that doesn't know what terminal velocity is,one that gets confused between inches and minutes and you ,who doesn't seem to have an opinion of your own, just hitching on their coat tails


I suggest you practice your magic kicks, and show us a vid. I'd love to see it.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Apr 28, 2017)

jobo said:


> well that's not surprising, there does seem to be a collective dimness about the forum, anyway I counted 3 one that doesn't know what terminal velocity is,one that gets confused between inches and minutes and you ,who doesn't seem to have an opinion of your own, just hitching on their coat tails


----------



## Touch Of Death (Apr 28, 2017)

This guy seems to have it down, Just listen....


----------



## jobo (Apr 28, 2017)

Touch Of Death said:


> I suggest you practice your magic kicks, and show us a vid. I'd love to see it.


for someone who has stated they no longer wish to discuss the topic, your making a lot of posts discussing the topic. Do you have problems making decisions?


----------



## ladolcevita (Apr 28, 2017)

Hey guys, thanks a ton for the helpful advice. It's nice to get a bit of education on the dynamics of it too 



JR 137 said:


> Wow.  Just... wow.
> 
> @ladolcevita
> 
> ...



Very helpful response, thanks! 

I have been kicking air a lot simply because I have nothing else so that's not benefiting me. It's mainly for technique/practice though. I've bought a kick shield in order to practice at home but I'll have to buy a BOB or century wavemaster. Does the wavemaster take up a lot of room? (I'm renting with not much space). Are there alternatives?


----------



## Touch Of Death (Apr 28, 2017)

jobo said:


> for someone who has stated they no longer wish to discuss the topic, your making a lot of posts discussing the topic. Do you have problems making decisions?


Do you have problems making friends?


----------



## jobo (Apr 28, 2017)

Touch Of Death said:


> Do you have problems making friends?


only with dim people who cant make decisions


----------



## Touch Of Death (Apr 28, 2017)

jobo said:


> only with dim people who cant make decisions


Why are you talking with dim people. Isn't there a site, where people understand your brilliance?


----------



## jobo (Apr 28, 2017)

Touch Of Death said:


> Why are you talking with dim people. Isn't there a site, where people understand your brilliance?


a lot of the folk here are reasonably smart, its just that the dim ones are trolling my posts for some reason. Then they say they are not going to discuss it further and my heart leaps with joy, and then they do anyway, bummer


----------



## Touch Of Death (Apr 28, 2017)

jobo said:


> a lot of the folk here are reasonably smart, its just that the dim ones are trolling my posts for some reason. Then they say they are not going to discuss it further and my heart leaps with joy, and then they do anyway, bummer


It happens.


----------



## jks9199 (Apr 28, 2017)

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please keep the conversation polite and respectful.

jks9199
Administrator*


----------



## Ironbear24 (Apr 29, 2017)

Horse stance training.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 30, 2017)

jobo said:


> I often see that quoted but is the wrong formula for body mechanics, you should use kinetic energy, which equals 1/2 x mass x velocity squared


That's valid, though it depends what point of the technique you're looking at. F=MA is appropriate if we're talking about the moment of impact, where A is the result of the speed of the attacking limb and the give of the attacked surface.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 30, 2017)

marques said:


> Don't get me wrong. This is a fascinating field. I just feel I would need a PhD in biomechanics to apply equations properly to the human movement. Maybe equations help some of us more than me. I feel better on the empiric way, so far.


There's a lot of truth in that, Marques. Even using the moment of impact and applying F=MA, you're still left (normally) with more than one force vector to calculate. And if a block is involved, there's a transfer of force through the blocking limb, and that's just a nightmare to even imagine the vectors and calculations.

I think most folks mention the formulae to communicate the concept. For instance, in discussing F=MA, we get to discuss the combination of speed (as a component of A) and getting more than the weight of the limb into the strike (as M).

The same would be true of the kinetic energy formula Jobo cited, which uses most of the same components. Neither will fully describe the damage (that's beyond a mere force/energy transferral), but they help some folks understand why focusing on one area doesn't generate the power they want.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 30, 2017)

ladolcevita said:


> Hey guys, thanks so much for taking the time to reply
> 
> So the general consensus is that the power lies in the technique foremost.
> 
> ...


I'm wondering if you're not getting enough mass into the kick. If it's just your leg, it won't be enough. You need some of your bodyweight transferred into the kick, as well.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 30, 2017)

jobo said:


> not necessarily, it could travel a long way at a slowish speed or a shorter distance at a higher speed.


I think the point was that, given a constant acceleration (not precisely true, but sufficient for discussion), velocity = acceleration X time. The distance traveled increases the time under acceleration, thereby increasing speed. That assumes good technique, of course.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 30, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Because we are only talking a hundred K,s an hour at most.
> 
> There is never going to be an issue of terminal velocity. Acceleration will only stop when you run out of leg.


Or tendons, for those of us with poor flexibility.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 30, 2017)

jobo said:


> but that's not in fact logical. If I throw a ball it doesnt keep accelerating till it hits the target, does it, if I go flat out in my car it won't keep accelerating for ever. They accelerate and then move at a constant speed, then they decelerate
> 
> but this is,science and he has made a claim he can't support


But it does accelerate throughout your throwing motion, which is more analogous to the kick. Counting what happens after the throw (the ball's deceleration) is like considering what happens to your shoe if it flies off at the end of the kick.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 30, 2017)

jobo said:


> ????that's not a front kick is it, we ate unless you forgot discussing karate front kicks


So, you're asserting that a throw has more in common with a front kick than a football kick does?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 30, 2017)

jobo said:


> so there isn't a max speed your leg can reach?


Theoretically, yes. Probably not something that is generated in the first 85% of a kick, though. And we can test that by trying kicks against targets closer than 85% of range. What we'd consistently find is that a good kick has its best power at nearly full extension. Anything reaching its max power much earlier will also be much weaker.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Apr 30, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Theoretically, yes. Probably not something that is generated in the first 85% of a kick, though. And we can test that by trying kicks against targets closer than 85% of range. What we'd consistently find is that a good kick has its best power at nearly full extension. Anything reaching its max power much earlier will also be much weaker.


Also, dragging the foot from an angle, is different than driving it, in a straight line.


----------



## jobo (Apr 30, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> That's valid, though it depends what point of the technique you're looking at. F=MA is appropriate if we're talking about the moment of impact, where A is the result of the speed of the attacking limb and the give of the attacked surface.


no you are miss applying it, we are talking about newtons laws of motion, which don't lend themselves to being explained in forum posts, so here is some reading
Force - Wikipedia

in,short, force is the effect an interaction has on the objects involved, so at its simplest, lets take the kicking of a football.

kinetic energy is what you are using to strike it, force is what happens to the football, it has constant mass, so the key point is the acceleration of the object you have hit, not the speed of your foot in hitting it. So you would take the weight of the football and times that by its rate of acceleration to find the force you have generated. If you miss kick and skim the ball. The kinetic energy and speed of your foot is the same, but the force generated in the football is considerably less
if you have made an error in judgement, and kicked a ball made of stone, it won't move, so the force applied os the weight of the stone ball times the deceleration of your foot.

all forces being equal and opposite you will break your foot

so... To measure force you measure the effect on the objects being contacted Not the speed or mass of the body striking the object .


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 30, 2017)

jobo said:


> no you are miss applying it, we are talking about newtons laws of motion, which don't lend themselves to being explained in forum posts, so here is some reading
> Force - Wikipedia
> 
> in,short, force is the effect an interaction has on the objects involved, so at its simplest, lets take the kicking of a football.
> ...


Actually, no. Some of the force is absorbed in the deflection of the football. So there are two different places force can be measured. If you measure the movement of the football, you're measuring the resulting force (to simplify it, this is the force not absorbed by the football in deflection, plus the rebound force from that deflection). The force imparted to the football can also be calculated, and that will be the mass of the impacting object, times that object's velocity change over the time of its contact with the ball. This is harder to measure on a football kick because the foot doesn't stop. If we measured the force of kicking a Thai heavy bag, the foot does stop, so if we measured how long it took to stop (the time the bag is deflecting), we would be able to calculate the force delivered.

The two (force at impact and kinetic energy just before impact) are actually opposite sides of the same math. Neither depends upon what is being struck. The force coming out the other side, however (measured as you suggested), shows the force lost in the object.


----------



## marques (Apr 30, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> There's a lot of truth in that, Marques. Even using the moment of impact and applying F=MA, you're still left (normally) with more than one force vector to calculate. And if a block is involved, there's a transfer of force through the blocking limb, and that's just a nightmare to even imagine the vectors and calculations.
> 
> I think most folks mention the formulae to communicate the concept. For instance, in discussing F=MA, we get to discuss the combination of speed (as a component of A) and getting more than the weight of the limb into the strike (as M).
> 
> The same would be true of the kinetic energy formula Jobo cited, which uses most of the same components. Neither will fully describe the damage (that's beyond a mere force/energy transferral), but they help some folks understand why focusing on one area doesn't generate the power they want.


Yep. It can be found again and again high school physics, where the concept was explained with an oversimplified situation, 'applied' to the real world and highly complex systems (as human bodies hitting each other). Sometimes it works, sometimes don't...

For instance, Force (even a huge one) can be 'just' pushing (ex: lifting 300 kg). In striking generally we don't want to push, we want to cause damage or, at least, pain.


----------



## jobo (Apr 30, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Actually, no. Some of the force is absorbed in the deflection of the football. So there are two different places force can be measured. If you measure the movement of the football, you're measuring the resulting force (to simplify it, this is the force not absorbed by the football in deflection, plus the rebound force from that deflection). The force imparted to the football can also be calculated, and that will be the mass of the impacting object, times that object's velocity change over the time of its contact with the ball. This is harder to measure on a football kick because the foot doesn't stop. If we measured the force of kicking a Thai heavy bag, the foot does stop, so if we measured how long it took to stop (the time the bag is deflecting), we would be able to calculate the force delivered.
> 
> The two (force at impact and kinetic energy just before impact) are actually opposite sides of the same math. Neither depends upon what is being struck. The force coming out the other side, however (measured as you suggested), shows the force lost in the object.


so after a long post, you are now accepting your original post was inaccurate ! You measure force by the acceleration of the football not the acceleration of the foot kicking it.
what your describing in the distortion of the foot ball is a loss between the kinetic energy of the kick and the force received,
but that's irrelevant to this discussion are we are talking about how force is measured, not the efficiency of the contact


----------



## Headhunter (May 1, 2017)

Best way to get good kicks is to practice kicks


----------



## Buka (May 1, 2017)

A person could expound thermodynamics to me in a conversation about cooking, but it probably wouldn't help with the preparing of fine food.

And it sure as hell wouldn't help with the enjoyment of eating a great meal. Martial Artists should eat better.


----------



## jobo (May 1, 2017)

Buka said:


> A person could expound thermodynamics to me in a conversation about cooking, but it probably wouldn't help with the preparing of fine food.
> 
> And it sure as hell wouldn't help with the enjoyment of eating a great meal. Martial Artists should eat better.


thermodynamics is very important to cooking, image ne f they stated to make up their r own defintions of how to heat something up. They say boil and what they mean is,simmer, absolutely crucial to fine food, that people stick to the accepted defintions


----------



## Touch Of Death (May 1, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Best way to get good kicks is to practice kicks


Lies! You could practice your whole life, and not know the basics.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 1, 2017)

Buka said:


> A person could expound thermodynamics to me in a conversation about cooking, but it probably wouldn't help with the preparing of fine food.
> 
> And it sure as hell wouldn't help with the enjoyment of eating a great meal. Martial Artists should eat better.


My wife (Master's degree in Mechanical Engineering) and I have had many a discussion of thermodynamics over a great meal. That discussion certainly added to the enjoyment. Of course, she's prettier than you are.


----------



## Balrog (May 23, 2017)

ladolcevita said:


> Hey all,
> 
> I'm a female who's just got back into TKD.
> 
> ...


Latecomer to the thread.  I agree that technique is the key.  Here's a drill that you can do to strengthen your legs as well as improve your technique.  My students call this the Wall of Pain^G^G^G^GFun drill.  

This is excellent for side kicks, hook kicks, etc.  Brace against a wall or a bag at arms length with the non-kicking side hand.  Put the kicking side hand up in guard.  Make sure your base foot is pivoted correctly with the toes pointed at the wall or bag.  

Visualize a table in front of you with the edge just below your hip joint.  There's a ball on the table.  If you bring your leg straight up, you'll clip the bottom edge of the table - not good.  Chamber your side kick, pulling the knee back toward the back shoulder.  If it's done correctly, you'll look kinda like a doggie on a fire hydrant.  S-L-O-W-L-Y extend the leg into the full kick, clearing the edge of the table and pushing the ball off.  Hold it locked out for 5-7 seconds, then slowly rechamber it.  Lather, rinse, repeat.  Do about 4-5 on each leg to start and slowly work your way up to 10 each leg.

Your hip flexor muscles will promptly start screaming at you, because they don't normally get exercised like this and they're weak.  As they strengthen, it will hurt less and you will find that your balance is better, your kicks are smoother and they will be stronger because the muscles are acting in the way you want them to.


----------



## Brmty2002 (May 25, 2017)

BuckerooBonzai said:


> You're probably going to get a 1,001 replies and most likely 1,000 different answers but I would have to say that it really comes down to technique more than strength any day.
> 
> I have seen so many students that do NOT have great leg strength but still have great power in their kicks.  It's all about generating the force (not Star Wars force!) but the F=ma force.  Speed and technique beats brute strength every day in my experience.
> 
> So, bottom line, develop the technique and hone the technique and the power will come.


This I agree with. But if I may add to it, practice. I know this is a 5 year olds recommendation but it applies to all of us.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Jun 1, 2017)

jobo said:


> the weakness' is in the nervous system, its about teaching the mucles to fire at the right time ,in the right sequence and activate the correct muscle fibres, to develop the power you want, allowing that you have reasonably developed muscles in the first place.
> 
> practise practise and a bit more practise. But not endless kicking of a bag,which will only work the slow twitch muscle fibres, focus on single kicks with power that work the fast twitch fibres,kicking a soccer ball may well help as will box jumping



I must say I agree with you about focusing on single kicks with power as opposed to many many kicks on a bag. As you said doing the many many kicks will mostly just work the slow twitch fibers and it might build up your endurance but won't do much to develop speed and power. Instead I would say do ten kicks on the bag and focus on making them explosive. Fast and powerful. Then take a bit of a rest and do another ten fast and explosive kicks. Do maybe ten sets of this for a total of 100 kicks.

I used to do thousands of kicks in a single workout but not so much anymore. Even with all my experience I am still learning new stuff about how to improve. 

As for you ladolcevita you say that you've got a good sidekick but you're rusty with the front kick. Since you've got a good sidekick you might want to focus on that and make it your primary kicking technique and get it as strong and as good as possible. Its better to have a few really good moves instead of many so so moves. If the sidekick works better for you than the front kick you might want to focus more on that and not use the front kick all that much.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Jun 1, 2017)

ladolcevita said:


> Hey guys, thanks a ton for the helpful advice. It's nice to get a bit of education on the dynamics of it too
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I've got a BOB. It doesn't take up much space and I find it very useful.


----------



## jobo (Jun 1, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> I've got a BOB. It doesn't take up much space and I find it very useful.


I've got a tree stump, it takes up a lot of space, but its outside so it doesn't really matter


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 1, 2017)

jobo said:


> I've got a tree stump, it takes up a lot of space, but its outside so it doesn't really matter


I saw your post count and was curious about how you have a third the amount of posts as me, when I've been on this site for two years, and your just shy of 2 months. Then I realized most of your posts are posts like this, and now it makes sense.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Jun 2, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Best way to get good kicks is to practice kicks



That's over simplified. When you practice kicks there are many different types of kicking drills you can do. It helps to get into specifics.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Jun 2, 2017)

kempodisciple said:


> I saw your post count and was curious about how you have a third the amount of posts as me, when I've been on this site for two years, and your just shy of 2 months. Then I realized most of your posts are posts like this, and now it makes sense.



Some people just post a lot in a short amount of time. 

I know "a lot" isn't good grammar but what the heck.


----------



## jobo (Jun 2, 2017)

kempodisciple said:


> I saw your post count and was curious about how you have a third the amount of posts as me, when I've been on this site for two years, and your just shy of 2 months. Then I realized most of your posts are posts like this, and now it makes sense.


 just passing on a useful tip, tree stumps are excellent training,aids for kicking power. However apart from the space issue, they can also take a hundred years or more to obtain. So they may not be practical for every one. But then tree abound in public places so you may be able to use one of these. If tree kicking isn't illegal in your state.check with the sheriff's department


----------



## Juany118 (Jun 15, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I'm wondering if you're not getting enough mass into the kick. If it's just your leg, it won't be enough. You need some of your bodyweight transferred into the kick, as well.



I was thinking the same thing.  You can't simply just put the leg out there with your muscles, you must also use a mechanism to get more of your overall mass behind the kick.  One way to do that is to "sink" or "settle" into the kick.  It's similar with round kick.  You don't simply want to pivot on your planted leg you want to rotate the hip of the kicking leg into the target.  Hard to describe but in short you need to get as much of the "M" into the "F" equation as possible.


----------



## JR 137 (Jun 15, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> I was thinking the same thing.  You can't simply just put the leg out there with your muscles, you must also use a mechanism to get more of your overall mass behind the kick.  One way to do that is to "sink" or "settle" into the kick.  It's similar with round kick.  You don't simply want to pivot on your planted leg you want to rotate the hip of the kicking leg into the target.  Hard to describe but in short you need to get as much of the "M" into the "F" equation as possible.



Absolutely agree.  And kicking the air won't teach that effectively.  And unless you've got an unlimited number of partners willing to take your best shots, sparring won't truly teach that either.

As I said in my first post here, you've got to hit things hard to learn that effectively.  There's really no substitute for a good heavy bag to teach and develop stopping power.  Well, maybe cows hanging in a meat locker like Rocky used to hit might be better.  And you'll help your butcher tenderize the meat


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 16, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> Absolutely agree.  And kicking the air won't teach that effectively.  And unless you've got an unlimited number of partners willing to take your best shots, sparring won't truly teach that either.
> 
> As I said in my first post here, you've got to hit things hard to learn that effectively.  There's really no substitute for a good heavy bag to teach and develop stopping power.  Well, maybe cows hanging in a meat locker like Rocky used to hit might be better.  And you'll help your butcher tenderize the meat


This. My kicks (and punches) got a lot more powerful when I added heavy bag practice, which was a rare part of my early training. Makiwara, sparring, and practicing with the air - even striking into striking pads held by partners - didn't do nearly as much for power development.

I'll also add that flexibility matters. I'm not highly flexible at the hips, so high kicks lose power. I can pummel a ribcage, but kicks to the head are much softer.


----------



## JR 137 (Jun 16, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> This. My kicks (and punches) got a lot more powerful when I added heavy bag practice, which was a rare part of my early training. Makiwara, sparring, and practicing with the air - even striking into striking pads held by partners - didn't do nearly as much for power development.
> 
> I'll also add that flexibility matters. I'm not highly flexible at the hips, so high kicks lose power. I can pummel a ribcage, but kicks to the head are much softer.


Striking pads teach a little bit of it.  Best for people just starting out or in a class setting where they're doing some partner drills.  Focus mitts are great, but they don't develop power; they're a different tool altogether.

All IMO.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 16, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> Striking pads teach a little bit of it.  Best for people just starting out or in a class setting where they're doing some partner drills.  Focus mitts are great, but they don't develop power; they're a different tool altogether.
> 
> All IMO.


I've seen striking pads mis-used for kicks, leading to a strong "push" element. It took me a while to correct that in my own kick. I'm not sure I've ever fully corrected it in my front kick.


----------

