# Those pills that aid cartiledge growth...



## Adept (Nov 17, 2004)

What are they called, and are they prescription or available over-the-counter? Are there any negative side-effects I should know of?

 Thanks in advance to anyone who can help me out.


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## bignick (Nov 17, 2004)

glucosamine chondroitin or glucosamine sulfate

I've taken the chondroitin version and I did notice an improvement in my knees...whether it was psychosomatic or physically caused by the supplement I can't say...and I don't really care.  They feel better and that is what is important to me.


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## jfarnsworth (Nov 17, 2004)

Glucosamine/Chondroitin/& MSM. I'd get something with all 3 in it. I haven't had any side effects and anyone I've been associated with in the gym/studio hasn't either. I wouldn't go to your local drug store either go to a kmart/wal-mart/meijer they will be cheaper there for the same thing. 
I actually get mine for www.vitamins.com they are very reasonable on many things.


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## INDYFIGHTER (Nov 17, 2004)

I picked up a huge bottle of glucosamine chondroitin at Sam's Club and I think it helps.  I took two a day for about six weeks and now I just take one.  My knees don't pop as much or get sore anymore.  It was recommended by several of the older people at my school.


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## Gin-Gin (Nov 17, 2004)

I've been taking glucosamine supplements "over-the-counter" for about 4 yrs now, and they've definitely helped my knees! (in addition to drinking more water everyday) My local grocery store has started selling a generic version of the same stuff, so that helps me save $.  Good Luck, and I hope it works for you too!

Sincerely,
Gin-Gin


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## Adept (Nov 17, 2004)

Fantastic. Thanks guys. I'll pop into town tomorrow and get some.

 Once again, thanks!


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## bignick (Nov 17, 2004)

A friend of mine who is an excersize science major recommends fish oil as well to help aid in the lubrication of joints


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## Adept (Nov 17, 2004)

bignick said:
			
		

> A friend of mine who is an excersize science major recommends fish oil as well to help aid in the lubrication of joints


 Well, I suppose it cant hurt. I've been morbidly afraid of all things fish related since my childhood, when my father used to dose me and my sisters with cod-liver oil (in the disgusting liquid form) whenever we had any kind of ailment. Stubbed your toe? Cod liver oil. Got a cold? Cod liver oil. Broken your arm? Cod liver oil. Dear god that is awful stuff.


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## punisher73 (Nov 17, 2004)

I remember reading something in a fitness magazine, that talked about how Glucosamine and Chondriton Sulfate (sp?) were the only supplements that have actually held up in independant lab studies and with results that could be replicated as such.

I have used these supplements and could tell alot of difference while taking them.  By a good brand, I got mine on sale at GNC for a reasonable price. I also tried a "generic" brand from Walmart and could tell the difference between the two.  The generic brand was still better than nothing but my knees didn't feel as good as when I had the other brand.  So try and do some research and make sure that whoever you buy from is actually putting what they claim on the label in the pill.  ALOT of companies don't match their label claims when it comes to supplements


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## TigerWoman (Nov 17, 2004)

I have used glucosamine sulfate for years-actually 7.  Last year started taking MSM with it.  It takes about 3 months to get into your system enough to see results.  The glucosamine sulfate is from shellfish so if you have an allergic reaction to that take the other kind, glucosamine chondroitin.  Sulfate is the easiest on the stomach and the most soluable, usable though.  I have taken Shaklee brand which is excellent but expensive, also another through a health catalog but that was also expensive considering shipping too. Now I get it at the health food section in a grocery store.  "Now" brand.  Be careful of Walmart's as mentioned before, it is not equal at all.  I noticed a big difference so I was glad to find these at our local grocery store.  Mine are about $30. for 240 capsules. I take them twice a day as my knees are VERY bad.  BTW glucoasamine and ibuprofen do not do well together so take them at different times of the day for full effect. TW


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## pakua (Nov 17, 2004)

bignick said:
			
		

> A friend of mine who is an excersize science major recommends fish oil as well to help aid in the lubrication of joints


Trouble with that stuff is it makes a hell of a mess of your clothes and people in the elevator (or as I would call it, the _lift_) look at you funny.

But seriously folks- glad I read this thread because my knees are older than the rest of me, so I'll go and talk to Mike my local pharmacist and see what he has with this stuff in.

(when Sifu says "Listen to your body" he must have meant my knees!)


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Nov 18, 2004)

OK.  A couple of things to be aware of are source, MED (minimum effective dose), and type.

Let' start with type.  MSM, Glucosamine and Chondroitin work well in the SULFATE forms, because they are sulfur-group donors, which the body uses to rebuild it's own glucosaminoglycans ("gag's" for short). The "Glucosamine Hydrochloride" stuff pretty much just gets excreted as waste, b/c it doesn't donate the all-important "SULFATE".  Read the label of the cheap ones. Hydrochloride forms are easier to manufacture (read: Cheaper), and so the cheaper bottles/brands are usually the hydrochloride forms. Should sound familiar...salt? Jury is still out as to whether it really hikes BP in people with sodium sensitive hypertension, but why bother fionding out...it's missing the sulfur. Get the sulfate forms, and if your budget will allow it, add SAM-e to your regimen. In the US, you either hear the negatives waaay blown outta proportion, or false/grandiose claims blown outta proportion. Throughout Europe (France, Germany, Belgium, England) they actually throw funds at quality research of nutritional alernatives. SAM-e has been shown in some of the better quality of these studies to "supercharge" the effect of Glucosamnie/Chondroitin.  Why?  MORE SULFUR! (in digestable form)

Source.  If you're going to bother with this, do it right, and spend a little extra dough. Some of the generics, even if they are the sulfate forms, pretty much use inferior sources, or bottle whatever was swept up off the floor of the quality places, so to speak. Buy a better brand. Most of the brands I use with patients aren't available to the public. I know some of the guys running Twin Labs; they make quality stuff. Trader Joes SULFATE form is one of those undiscovered gems -- better quality than many of the nutriceutical companies, at a fraction of the price.

Dose. The only quality studies regarding dose-specific results, measured under the microscopes they use for such things, shows a minimum of 1200 mg/day of glucosamine sulfate is needed to generate active, measurable results. That means, if you're taking 400 mg/day, and feel better, it's in yer head. Not a bad place for a thing, mind you, considering the success of placebo's in many drug trials (sometimes producing same or better results than the drugs they're up against), but not biochemically/metabolically active. 1200 mg's a day to halt the degradation of hyaline cartilage, and/or initiate the restoration of new articular tissues at a greater-than-normal rate.

If you buy combos (i.e., GS, CS, MSM all in one tab) read the label to make sure you are getting the MED of each. May actually be cheaper to buy them individually, and take a vitamin cocktail in the AM and PM. Careful, though: high sulfur content burps taste really bad. Kinda like someone farted in your mouth (especially with the addition of SAM-e). Don't talk to anyone, and let it represent to you a sign that you're on the right track, and getting the MED you need for real change.

Happy hunting,

Dr. Dave Crouch


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## bignick (Nov 18, 2004)

This place is great...need some medical advice and there's a martial artist doctor. 

What's it like being on both the supply and demand side of the healing business? :wink:


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## Marginal (Nov 18, 2004)

bignick said:
			
		

> glucosamine chondroitin or glucosamine sulfate
> 
> I've taken the chondroitin version and I did notice an improvement in my knees...whether it was psychosomatic or physically caused by the supplement I can't say...and I don't really care.  They feel better and that is what is important to me.



One of my dogs developed arthritis in her shoulder. She was tender to the touch, and coudln't put weight on her leg. The vet perscribed half a dose of coated asprin which worked, but she started suffering from nosebleeds, so the vet switched her over to glucosamine, which worked just as well as the apsrin.

Long story short, it's not psychosomatic.


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## Adept (Nov 18, 2004)

Okay, the capsules I picked up each contain 500mg of Glucosamine Sulfate. So I will be taking three per day, to get over the 1200mg mark required. They cost me $27AU, which is around $20US for 200 capsules.

 Forgive my ignorance, but what is SAM-e?

 Once again, thanks for all the help.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Nov 19, 2004)

Adept said:
			
		

> Okay, the capsules I picked up each contain 500mg of Glucosamine Sulfate. So I will be taking three per day, to get over the 1200mg mark required. They cost me $27AU, which is around $20US for 200 capsules.
> 
> Forgive my ignorance, but what is SAM-e?
> 
> Once again, thanks for all the help.


Copied this from the Jarrow website (also one of the better brands available to the public):

*Contains More of the Active S,S Form
*SAM-e (S-Adenosylmethionine) is a chiral molecule and therefore consists of two forms: (S,S) SAM-e and (R,S) SAM-e. The biologically active form is the (S,S) structure, while the (R,S) structure is biologically inactive.

SAM-e is an amino acid derivative that has been clinically proven to benefit brain, joint and liver function. Found in all living cells, SAM-e is also called "activated" methionine (an essential amino acid) since it is formed by the combining of ATP with methionine. SAM-e has undergone dozens of trials involving thousands of patients. Researchers studying the beneficial effects of SAM-e have identified the following benefits of SAM-e:

*Joint Strength*
SAM-e supports the production of healthy connective tissue through transulfuration. In this process, critical components of connective tissue, including glucosamine and the chondroitin sulfates, are sulfated by SAM-e metabolites.

*Brain Metabolism*
SAM-e methylation reactions are involved in the synthesis of neurotransmitters such as L-dopa, dopamine and related hormones, epinephrine and phosphatidylcholine (a component of lecithin).

*Longevity*
Methylation of DNA appears to be important in the suppression of errors in DNA replication. Demethylation of DNA is considered a contributor to the aging process. Proper methylation through substances such as SAM-e positively influences longevity.

*Liver*
SAM-e metabolism supports the synthesis of glutathione (GSH) and glutathione-dependent enzymes (glutathione peroxidase and glutathione-S-transferase), which are substances important for liver function.


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## TigerWoman (Nov 19, 2004)

KKK, how is that sold on the market?  Or where?   I don't think I've seen anything with Sam-E on the label.  I'm all up for anything for joints and longevity sounds good too. TW


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## The Kai (Nov 19, 2004)

I'me pretyt sure I've seen ias Sam-e around (walgreen's maybe0

Todd


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 19, 2004)

A sammich  :idunno: 


anyway, the sulfate is definately the better choice.  If you know about msm and how it works ( or even how to create a nutural alternative with the same effect  which if you want more on , is likely going to be a whole other thread) , you'll understand that it is the perfect compliment and aides in creating the bio-fluidic consitencey that these principals rely on.  Nice advice.

BL

btw : how many ppl here have studied hm or med science formally before??? Only asking because that way, If I want a sport science / med-rant  in future , I know exactly where to direct it........

cheers maers 

Blooming Lotus


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## jfarnsworth (Nov 19, 2004)

I seen Sam-E for the first time today. Very odd that I read this thread earlier today and shop at the same grocery store every week. I've looked down the vitamin aisle more times than I care to. Anyhow all I can say about Sam-E is whoa.......that stuff is about a buck a pill/tablet/capsule. I'd really like to try this stuff for my knee but since my wife has lost her job I can't really afford more expenses. If anyone takes this I'd like to hear about the results.


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 19, 2004)

what is sam-e and what does it do

http://www.bestsame.com/whatissame.html

sounds like exactly the same proccess as msm to me ( line your with sulfurs ( aminos or proteins ) chemically heat and strip ( refine / distill  )  leaving the best quality and ph recovery bio - fluid .  

Never heard of sam-e to be frank, but by logic there's no reason it _shouldn't _work???

BL


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## Ceicei (Nov 19, 2004)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> OK.  A couple of things to be aware of are source, MED (minimum effective dose), and type.
> 
> Let' start with type. MSM, Glucosamine and Chondroitin work well in the SULFATE forms, because they are sulfur-group donors, which the body uses to rebuild it's own glucosaminoglycans ("gag's" for short). The "Glucosamine Hydrochloride" stuff pretty much just gets excreted as waste, b/c it doesn't donate the all-important "SULFATE". Read the label of the cheap ones.
> 
> Dr. Dave Crouch


 I have a question:

 If I have a sulfa drug allergy, would taking any of these OTC (MSM, Glucosamine, or Chondroitin) pose a problem for me?

 - Ceicei


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 20, 2004)

being that sulfur is a biproduct of protein and both are essential to life and fuction, how amazing 1stly and secondly, yes.  

BL


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 25, 2004)

have just read an awesome article on L-Arginine ( a growth hormone producing protein amino acid ) which you can find here http://www.pdrhealth.com/drug_info/nmdrugprofiles/nutsupdrugs/lar_0024.shtml

which should  also help in lieu of msm.  L-Arginine uses the same principal as msm although instead of using the protein overload ,  heat and strip( or eliminate ) catabolising excess and breakdown metabolism of the remaining protein aminos process , L-Arginine comes pre-broken down to its most basic and bio available form to cause a range of benifits as I described earlier in relation to msm.  

I think I still prefer the msm effect, because if we have to eat anyway, it's a good way to go.  If you can't swing the process yourself though, this is an extremely great option that will provide you with the same benifits.  

have a read and enjoy.

cheers

Blooming Lotus


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## lhommedieu (Nov 27, 2004)

I started taking 1500 mg's of Glucosamine and Chondroitin in sulfate form yesterday.  They are combined in one tablet for about $38/60 - so that works out to about $19/month.  

I'm finding that at 45 I don't bounce back from injuries as well anymore, and I had heard good things about Glucosamine from both of my teachers.  Anyhow, I'll write back in three months and let you know if there's been any change.

Best,

Steve Lamade


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 29, 2004)

glucosamine and condrite, particularly as a sulfate  is good.  Just a round about way of creating the L-Argenine  / msm effect really isn't it. I'm sure you'll improve regardless . We'll look forward to hearing how you go.



BL


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## Jade Tigress (Nov 29, 2004)

Ceicei said:
			
		

> I have a question:
> 
> If I have a sulfa drug allergy, would taking any of these OTC (MSM, Glucosamine, or Chondroitin) pose a problem for me?
> 
> - Ceicei


I'd like to know too. I have a severe sulfa drug allergy. I have taken Glucosamine/Chondroitin without problems but have stayed away from MSM because the bottle cautioned those with sulfa allergies...


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Nov 30, 2004)

Sil Lum TigerLady said:
			
		

> I'd like to know too. I have a severe sulfa drug allergy. I have taken Glucosamine/Chondroitin without problems but have stayed away from MSM because the bottle cautioned those with sulfa allergies...


Good questions. I THINK, metabolically, they process differently. However, I sure as heck don't want to be the guy who said it was fine, then sent you off on an allergic adventure. Let me look into this a bit so I can provide an informed opine, and not mislead you. 

Dave


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## Bloomingtianshilotus (Dec 2, 2004)

Spot on and if you check this link out 

http://arthritis-msm-supplement.discount-vitamins-herbs.net/

you'll see that the sulfur in msm and thelikes are more akin to the sulfur we produce in our bodies naturally as opposed to the type found in sulfuric drugs.

I also came across an msm, glucosamine, chondroitin combo product in a health store the other day and ran somew thoughts by the presiding naturapath re : the differences of the glucosime/chondriotin combo and the msm additive, as well as the L-Argenine similarity and the protein amino intake /upload and metabolism/catabolism differences and similarities of it all ( then asked a pharmicist just to be sure we were on the same chemistry page ), and what it basically came to was with the glucosamine/ chondroitin combo , you end up with the same active aminos for tissue / muscle joint repair and so forth as you do in L-argenine , msm and the protein overload -catabolism and breakdown flush process I'm so fond of advocating ( though at different stages of metabolism and enzymic breakdown and uptake bioavailabilty quality) but msm is more reputed for its analgesic effect as is the protein cataboloism, so we all agreed that in the prior stages to the last enyzemic breakdown ( that you really only get with the last 3) , there is a crucial chemical reaction produced when those protein enzymes bond and synthesise that seem responsible for pain relief and have higher anti-inflammatory value than just the raw and most basic amino that you get from the former 2. The msm addition in this instance is largely for market value when combined with the other 2, but certainly makes no difference than having it on its own over the 2 part combination. 

there's a great link here about protease enzymes and relief from pain and inflammation.
http://www.enzymestuff.com/conditionsports.htm

the L-argenine link again to compare notes 
http://www.pdrhealth.com/drug_info/nmdrugprofiles/nutsupdrugs/lar_0024.shtml

and another on arthritis / glucosamine and chondrotin etc 

http://www.glucosamine-arthritis.org/introduction.html

interesting stuff, so enjoy your reads

Hope it clarifies a little 

cheers 

Blooming Lotus


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## NTDeveloper (Mar 8, 2005)

lhommedieu said:
			
		

> I started taking 1500 mg's of Glucosamine and Chondroitin in sulfate form yesterday. They are combined in one tablet for about $38/60 - so that works out to about $19/month.
> 
> I'm finding that at 45 I don't bounce back from injuries as well anymore, and I had heard good things about Glucosamine from both of my teachers. Anyhow, I'll write back in three months and let you know if there's been any change.
> 
> ...


 Steve,

 Wondering how the GC supplement worked. Any marked improvement?


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## lhommedieu (Mar 9, 2005)

I would say yes.  My lower back was in pretty bad shape a back in Nov/Dec and I starting taking the supplement along with liquid liver pills.  I'm able to run now and my martial arts workouts are getting a lot easier - although I know that I'm still not close to 100% recovered yet.

Most of the damage came as a result of training injuries and is chronic in nature.  The typical agents (stress, overwork, cold weather) cause it to flair up every year or so.  What bothered me was the amount of time it was taking to calm back down again.  I normally treat this with Chinese medicine but my schedule had been so hectic that I was unable to schedule with someone and frankly, too busy to treat myself - so I started taking these supplements to see what would happen.

I would definitely recommend these supplements as part of an overall treatment program for chronic injuries.  (Would anyone say that the liquid versions are more effective than the pills?)  I don't think that it's a stand-alone therapy:  if there are other modalities available then I think you should include them as part of an over-all package - that's what I do, anyway, and it seems to be working.

Another thing that I've found is that it pays to shop around on the internet and to know good companies that can provide quality products inexpensively; cost in a typical "health food" store is typically 3-5 times what you pay if you know for what you are shopping.

Best,

Steve


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Mar 9, 2005)

Save your money on the liquid forms. Solid vs Liquid does not cange the delivery mechanism to the body; still metabolizes through the same pathways.

There are some good TCM patent herbal combos for low back pain aggravated by cold, etc. If you're interested, I'll post the namers of a few, and some of the companies I think make the best. I'm in the odd position of being a rehab and sports med chiroprctor with a bad back. I know, from a manual medicine approach, exactly what needs to be done to my back to help it, but can't reach that way. So, if friends and colleagues are unavailable, I use these herbal meds.

Being in motion, though, is your best bet. Episodic back pain comes and goes by its very nature. Staying in shape and avoiding triggers (shoveling snow in flexion-rotation??) will help keep the number and severity of episodes down, as well as facilitate faster recovery times.

Tchuss!

D.


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## lhommedieu (Mar 9, 2005)

Thanks for the response.  You said:



			
				Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> I know, from a manual medicine approach, exactly what needs to be done to my back to help it, but can't reach that way. So, if friends and colleagues are unavailable, I use these herbal meds.
> D.



I know what you're saying - and would appreciate the information re. patent herbals.

Best, 


Steve


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