# Yeah? So what is so good bout competition??



## Jenna (Aug 6, 2006)

It is ok to compete with yourself in order to push yourself through boundaries to better yourself and but what is so good bout competing with someone else in order to beat them? That is the whole point of competition it is not for the sake of betterment.. it is simply to defeat someone.. where is the benefit in that? Why is competition in MA so commonplace and prevalent? question..


Hello friends romans countrymen citydwellers space cadets 

I came across a little snippet of an interview with Saito Sensei which gave the official line bout competition in Aikido not being a big or clever thing.. http://aikido-france.net/articles/saito5/

O'Sensei would answer the question, "What is Aikido?", by saying that it is a martial art of education with the aim of creating a beautiful and good society. That means WITHOUT competition. This is the demand of O'Sensei. That is why competition is not necessary. If it should happen that you are confronted with a real situation where you have to defend yourself physically, the way you have trained in aikido is more useful than competitions. There are so many techniques of self-defense without violence. In a competition, people soon start to prefer a certain technique and wait for an opportunity to use it. That is the moment where they can be overcome

​I think sometimes we are naturally and instinctively competitive and but I hold very dearly the teachings of the founder of my art but so are the cores of OSenseis teachings in some ways naive to reality when portraying competition as unnecessary?? I do not think so.. I believe competition with the purpose of defeating anyone from an adversary outside or on the mats to the other end of the spectrum when competing with a colleague at work over some position perhaps is detrimental to harmony in the bigger sense and I think we are too narrowly focussed on ourselves to understand or accept that.. but I would be interested to hear what you say to me anyone with a view..

Thank you for your thoughts on this 
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## Ito-okita (Aug 6, 2006)

Not to insult anyone or to be blunt but I think competition does have it's uses. As I've sparred with jiu jitsu, Taekwondo and Kung Fu people I could tell the difference between guys that did compete and those who didn't by 1 simple fact: those that have ever been in a competition didn't get all shook up by a blow to the head or other body part. Of course you can learn this too by just training with contact. But at least just for that competition is good, to get a "feel" for being knocked about. Just my 2 cents


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## SFC JeffJ (Aug 6, 2006)

It's another great way to practice your technique under a higher stress load.  That, and for some people, it's just plain fun.

Jeff


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## Blindside (Aug 6, 2006)

There are alot of aspects of competition that don't have anything to do with physical technique.  Now admittedly, this thread seems to focus on aikido, and given my limited time practicing or observing aikido, I can't even imagine what a competition looks like.  (Well, I can, but it involves two people in ready positions looking at each other and not EVER attacking.) 

In hard competition you feel fear, fear of getting hurt, fear of not living up to expectations of others, fear of the unknown.  Part of this is instict, and part of it is ego.  With regard to the instinctual fears like being hurt, as a martial artist you have to face this at some point in your training (and regularly) or you will be shocked the first time someone comes at you with true intention to harm you.

As for all the little ego games, these usually happen before the competition.  Do you fear competition because you might lose, that you'll look bad in front of friends?  Or the flipside, do you do it to prove something to others or yourself?  Both of these teach you about your ego and should give you clues about yourself and how to improve yourself.  Most people tend to grow mentally, physically, and emotionally because of challenges, competition is just one way of challenging yourself.

Lamont


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## Jenna (Aug 6, 2006)

Thank yous for the two cents worth  

I believe competition is inherently at odds with harmony. And I know that is not cool or tough but.. well I think it is forward thinking which a competitive attitude is perhaps not. I understand competition it is at the core of some arts but to me that implies a very narrow focus meaning the art is nothing more than a system of punches and kicks with the aim of keeping you safe and destroying everybody who would get in your way.. and it is not just on the mats or on the street.. that competitive mentality crosses all borders into the workplace and even family life from what I have observed.. for me the only validation of competition is self-betterment.. everything else competitive is to the detriment of harmony in the BIGGER sense..

I have tried to instil in myself and those I train with are same.. and we do certainly train and translate the philosophy into the physical techniques.. we are not seeking to compete.. nor to defeat.. that is Aikido.. everything else is not conducive to harmony.. and if I sound like a stuck record.. if I sound like a stuck record.. if I .. ha! yeah well maybe I just think there is a lot of introspection in the arts which should perhaps not be there..

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## theletch1 (Aug 6, 2006)

Competition is a very big part of what it means to be human, IMHO.  Certainly, we'd all like to think that we've evolved beyond the instinct to compete for food, space, a mate...what have you but the instinct to compete is just that...an instinct.  It's ingrained into the very fiber of our beings as humans.  I believe that aikido is not so much about anti-competition but more about creating the ability to control the urge to compete.  What's so good 'bout competition?  It's like chocolate mousse!  Not necessary for survival but it makes living a little sweeter now and then.


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## Kacey (Aug 6, 2006)

There are two kinds of competition:  against oneself, and against others.  The former allows you to determine your own progress, by comparing yourself to where you were when you started, or last checked your own progress; the latter allows you compare yourself to the standard of others of your own rank.  Both are, in my opinion, necessary for self-improvement.  In addition, when talking about a martial art, the only way to find out if some things work is to use them against an opponent - and tournament competition (as opposed to in-class practice) allows you to test things against a resisting opponent whose goal is not your improvement, but proof of his/her own improvement instead.  

One of my fondest memories from a tournament was when I came up against a IV Dan in the black belt women's division (I was a I Dan at the time) in a tournament, and I got one, good, solid point on her - and she was training for international competition, where she placed.  Did I win?  Nope - but I learned that I was better than I thought, that no matter how much better she was, I was still able to hit her - and while she won, it wasn't by nearly the margin I might have expected.  I learned that I was better than I thought - and that was eye-opening.  Never again did I go into that type of situation assuming I would get the crap beat out of me.  

And that is, in my opinion, the true purpose of competition - to learn things you can't learn any other way.  The people in class with you are trying to learn along with you - going up against people you don't know, whether it's in sparring, patterns, or any other event that occurs at your MA's tournaments - is a totally different environment than being in class.  When my students compete in tournaments, and place - that's great!  But what I ask them when they come back to class later is what they learned, and every one of them has something different that came out of the experience.  That alone makes competition worthwhile.


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## Jenna (Aug 6, 2006)

theletch1 said:
			
		

> Competition is a very big part of what it means to be human, IMHO. Certainly, we'd all like to think that we've evolved beyond the instinct to compete for food, space, a mate...what have you but the instinct to compete is just that...an instinct. It's ingrained into the very fiber of our beings as humans. I believe that aikido is not so much about anti-competition but more about creating the ability to control the urge to compete. What's so good 'bout competition? It's like chocolate mousse! Not necessary for survival but it makes living a little sweeter now and then.


Hey Jeff  yeah no argument from me I agree it is a primal instinct.. and which does not mean it is correct.. Ok let me put you on another line if you are up for it.. see I believe promiscuity is instinctual.. certainly it is.. so why are so many folk monogamous? Likewise Christianity (in the TRUE sense and not some half a$$ed piety) in my opinion is contrary to what is instinctual and yet it remains incredibly popular..

What I am saying is that it may be instinctual in us to be competitive and but that is not conducive to furthering anything but our own self interests.. that is what I mean by narrow focus.. furthermore the techniques of Ueshiba Aikido themselves were NEVER designed to be used competitively.. yeah I have been out to the Tomiki tournaments and did not take to the mats.. the whole thing seemed contrived.. and I know if MI is here there will be a disagreement but that is my opinion.. competition and Aikido do not sit well together.. And one last point is that a competitive attitude is not necessarily the way to come out of an altercation in the best condition.. however I appreciate that this requires a 180 degree change in most folks thinking..  still.. it can be done no probs

Competition is pervasive as you say everything from parking spaces to the last golden ticket in a bar of chocolate, ha! .. but I reckon Ueshiba was correct and as with all revolutionary thinkers.. more than a little too avant garde to be completely accepted.. and which is why there are so many hybrid and bastardised forms of Aikido out there because they had no stomach for the full Monty.. imho that is.. 

anyways to me most martial artists are simply looking to kick a$$ no matter how they dress it up.. yeah even Aikikai practitioners I have encountered over the years still want to break heads.. pffft.. anyways.. thanks for this 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## Jenna (Aug 6, 2006)

Kacey said:
			
		

> There are two kinds of competition: against oneself, and against others. The former allows you to determine your own progress, by comparing yourself to where you were when you started, or last checked your own progress; the latter allows you compare yourself to the standard of others of your own rank. Both are, in my opinion, necessary for self-improvement. In addition, when talking about a martial art, the only way to find out if some things work is to use them against an opponent - and tournament competition (as opposed to in-class practice) allows you to test things against a resisting opponent whose goal is not your improvement, but proof of his/her own improvement instead.
> 
> One of my fondest memories from a tournament was when I came up against a IV Dan in the black belt women's division (I was a I Dan at the time) in a tournament, and I got one, good, solid point on her - and she was training for international competition, where she placed. Did I win? Nope - but I learned that I was better than I thought, that no matter how much better she was, I was still able to hit her - and while she won, it wasn't by nearly the margin I might have expected. I learned that I was better than I thought - and that was eye-opening. Never again did I go into that type of situation assuming I would get the crap beat out of me.
> 
> And that is, in my opinion, the true purpose of competition - to learn things you can't learn any other way. The people in class with you are trying to learn along with you - going up against people you don't know, whether it's in sparring, patterns, or any other event that occurs at your MA's tournaments - is a totally different environment than being in class. When my students compete in tournaments, and place - that's great! But what I ask them when they come back to class later is what they learned, and every one of them has something different that came out of the experience. That alone makes competition worthwhile.


Hey Kacey my friend  thank you for this post.. I wonder would you allow me to ask some questions? Can you say why you think it is "necessary for self improvement" to compete against an opponent? 

I would agree wholeheartedly that there must be resistance in an opponent in order to ascertain your moves are working correctly.. however I would see no reason to engage in competition to bring that about.. personally I do this happily without competing with anyone.. 

and you have suggested that only in competition can we learn certain things.. I would suggest in turn that all those things can be trained without competition.. ok so maybe a little more work would be involved in travelling to other dojos to work with different people for example but can be done or is within the realms of possibility for anyone so inclined.. 

however.. in all this again the BIGGER picture I fear is missed.. and that is that we train competitively in order to DEFEAT others and which if we take that notion as wide as we are permitted then we are all merely training as little self sufficient islands.. the mentality being as long as I try to win I am ok.. and that pervades right through everything.. I mean.. two thirsty travellers and one finds a flask with one capful of water.. competitiveness says he drinks it.. we have been out here in the sun for days.. it is him or me he says to himself..

well.. that is sort of what I am alluding to.. yeah you would say.. ahh but Jenna there is no equating a bit of fun in the dojo or in the ring with life and death harmony in society.. hmmm ok.. maybe I am completely wrong though I believe competitiveness is insidious and at the root.. directly or indirectly..  of many global situations famine poverty inequality pollution.. but well there is no equation between martial arts competition and all this..? I guess not 

anyways.. sorry if that sounds all shouty and ranty but well.. thank you again for taking the time.. I appreciate it 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## MRE (Aug 6, 2006)

Hi Jenna,

In general, I think competition helps us improve. In the market place, technology of a product will improve exponentially when 2 or more providers compete to provide a better product more efficiently than the others.  If a provider wants to compete, he/she will strive to be better than the best competitor out there.  Of course, the better the competition, the better the provider will become.

I think this is generally true in martial arts as well.  Competing against others pushes one to improve.  The better the competition, the better one can become (through hard work of course).

In my experience, MA competitions have also helped in the sharing of ideas in the martial arts.  When we spar/compete against MAists from other arts, we get to see what else is out there.  We get to try out our techniques in adrenaline filled situations with a resisting opponent that does things a little differently.  We can learn some techniques that we would like to add to our own, and we can also finally realize just why our instructors put so much emphasis on small things in our own system.

If competition can help us improve and obtain knowledge, then I think it is a good thing.  However, from observing other competitions in the past, I also think that competition can teach harmony as well.  I have observed countless instances where two opponents, who just tried to beat on each other, can step out of the ring/octagon/circle of tape/grass in the backyard after competing shook hands and embraced with no ill will toward the other.  That has got to be harmony.  It doesn't happen all the time, but it does happen.

Just my opinion.  Have fun!


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## Kacey (Aug 6, 2006)

Jenna said:
			
		

> Hey Kacey my friend  thank you for this post.. I wonder would you allow me to ask some questions? Can you say why you think it is "necessary for self improvement" to compete against an opponent?
> 
> I would agree wholeheartedly that there must be resistance in an opponent in order to ascertain your moves are working correctly.. however I would see no reason to engage in competition to bring that about.. personally I do this happily without competing with anyone..
> 
> ...



Jenna - 

Certainly, I could get the benefit of different training partners by travelling to other classes - and have done so, and will continue to do so.  However, there is a different atmosphere when one is trying to win than when one is trying to train - even in the most intense training atmospheres.  Perhaps that's not the way it is for you - but for myself, when I have competed in tournaments, whether in patterns, sparring, or breaking, there is an intensity present in competition, both in myself and in my observation of others, which I don't feel is present in any other situation, except, possibly, at formal testings.  No matter how intense the training situation, there is something different about tournament competition that brings out the best performances in people - as with testing, the stress of the situation changes the intensity of the experience... not because of a desire to win, necessarily, but because of a desire to prove oneself better than previously and better than others.  It is an incentive that works for many people.

Can you attain this intensity without competition?  Some people can; some instructors can - but I think that competition is built into the human psyche (that is, after all, the basis for survival - competition with the environment) and that competition has effects that cannot be duplicated in any other setting.


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## Yari (Aug 7, 2006)

Jenna said:
			
		

> <snip>
> 
> ...... If it should happen that you are confronted with a real situation where you have to defend yourself physically, the way you have trained in aikido is more useful than competitions. There are so many techniques of self-defense without violence. In a competition, people soon start to prefer a certain technique and wait for an opportunity to use it. That is the moment where they can be overcome
> 
> ...


 
I dont think that competetions are bad. But I believe that they can be bad. And that really depends upon the mentallity of the fighter. So when i read or talk to people who think competetions are bad I feel it tells me more about that persons mentallity then about competitions.

So when I rewad O'senseis words, I read then that in copmetitions were you only goal is to win, your under the risk of locking yourself to certain techniques. And that a real life situation will need you to be able to move freely. (another question is why these two things exclude each other I don't understand). He's right, if the competition is used in his sence. But if you use the competition as a means of learning (like randori), then what's wrong.

Remember the discussion about that no martial art can be wrong? This I feel is the same. How can competition be wrong? It's a question about the mentallity you bring into it.

/Yari


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## MartialIntent (Aug 7, 2006)

Jenna said:
			
		

> What I am saying is that it may be instinctual in us to be competitive and but that is not conducive to furthering anything but our own self interests.. that is what I mean by narrow focus.. furthermore the techniques of Ueshiba Aikido themselves were NEVER designed to be used competitively.. yeah I have been out to the Tomiki tournaments and did not take to the mats.. the whole thing seemed contrived.. and I know if MI is here there will be a disagreement but that is my opinion.. competition and Aikido do not sit well together.. And one last point is that a competitive attitude is not necessarily the way to come out of an altercation in the best condition.. however I appreciate that this requires a 180 degree change in most folks thinking..  still.. it can be done no probs


Jenna,
Me? _Disagree_ with you? Certainly *not* after what I witnessed you and your lot doing last week!!  You half wrecked me! I mean certainly my own style Shodokan has those competitive aspects and I'm glad of them, as our competitions have taken me all around. And yes most definitely that single aspect of Aikido was the sore point between Ueshiba and Tomiki and so to answer your question, what's so good about the competition - well, I'm laughing here because now you've got me thinking about it with particular regard to these "bigger issues" you're alluding to, I'm actually not sure I can give an adequate reply, hehe . I _hate_ you! LOL, hehe 

Yes, competitive randori has upped my own game, though I'll admit it's a long way off *real* confrontation - the intents are way too divergent. But nonetheless has helped in its own way. For me, there's no grandiose reason for competing. I do it because I enjoy the challenge. Yeah I suppose I do like to prove I can be the best or at least better than someone else; I get a kick out of it! But of course that's your point isn't it? And so I have to agree with you [under duress!] that yes it is primarily about *me*. But ultimately I guess that's the way most folk practice their arts, with their own self-improvement and self-interests at heart and few I'd imagine would practice towards such idealistic or grand ends as Ueshiba was attempting to encourage in his students - those goals being harmony, peace etc.

That said, I'd still recommend you stick to your guns Jenna. I know these ideals mean a lot to you so don't be dissuaded by wearied and disillusioned old farts [like me!] hehe.

Sincere Respects!


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## Jenna (Aug 7, 2006)

MartialIntent said:
			
		

> Jenna,
> Me? Disagree with you? Certainly *not* after what I witnessed you and your lot doing last week!!  You half wrecked me! I mean certainly my own style Shodokan has those competitive aspects and I'm glad of them, as our competitions have taken me all around. And yes most definitely that single aspect of Aikido was the sore point between Ueshiba and Tomiki and so to answer your question, what's so good about the competition - well, I'm laughing here because now you've got me thinking about it with particular regard to these "bigger issues" you're alluding to, I'm actually not sure I can give an adequate reply, hehe . I hate you! LOL, hehe
> 
> Yes, competitive randori has upped my own game, though I'll admit it's a long way off *real* confrontation - the intents are way too divergent. But nonetheless has helped in its own way. For me, there's no grandiose reason for competing. I do it because I enjoy the challenge. Yeah I suppose I do like to prove I can be the best or at least better than someone else; I get a kick out of it! But of course that's your point isn't it? And so I have to agree with you [under duress!] that yes it is primarily about *me*. But ultimately I guess that's the way most folk practice their arts, with their own self-improvement and self-interests at heart and few I'd imagine would practice towards such idealistic or grand ends as Ueshiba was attempting to encourage in his students - those goals being harmony, peace etc.
> ...


Hey MI my worthy friend  well you just rub loadsa DDJ on it and all those nasty bruises will heal up nicely, ha!  and hey you do not hate me I am your friend!  and I think this issue of competition is perhaps a thing to leave an aftertaste and it is difficult that then even when I try to make it a tasty meal that suddenly everybody loses their appetite! 

I know you enjoy your tournament stuff and but for me I have watched the Tomiki tournaments and they do not fit properly to my eyes.. I know bout Kenji Tomiki pushing more of Kanos instruction than Ueshibas into his creation (and which is still named Aikido!) and but still that is to veer away from O'Sensei so as to have something which is like a replica kit car.. looks fancy and prolly goes well but has something of the spirit missing in it.. hope that is not overly offensive to you.. I believe to enjoy competition for self betterment is great and but I do not think that is why folk are competitive either on mats or off.. I think it is essentially a medium for expression of a desire to defeat someone and to be better than they are.. oooh ..I am verbose today! ha!

But do not get me wrong I think there is merit in a competitive mindset but NOT against each other instead against the antagonists that are COMMON to us all.. crime poverty disease and myriad others.. yeah I mean competition to defeat common "enemies" and but cooperation WITH EACH OTHER to defeat them.. funny though despite all the cooperation there remain those even competing within those laudible endeavours such as mapping the genome / cure for cancer.. in order to take the credit and to be the best and for me that is just plain egotism.. and this is how most do their martial art.. not to any great and laudible goal but for themselves alone which is unfortunate as martial artists whom I have met generally have great deal to give to others but yet practice for themselves only.. practice competitively to defeat everybody else.. anyways.. I am just digressing myself off into some corner somewhere maybe.. Thank you though for this..

I STILL do not know if there are any valid reasons beyond self-satisfaction why competition is good???

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## Monadnock (Aug 7, 2006)

The essence of Budo is to educate and develop the person as a whole. BuJutsu is different. The training is heavily guided to creating warriors.

Competition today reeks of sport. But competing in the BuJutsu was to prepair for battle. There is no "need" for competition in the Budo. your largest enemy is yourself. Aikido is Budo.


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## Blindside (Aug 7, 2006)

So Jenna, do you believe that competition in any part of life is bad, or simply in the context of your martial art?  You seem to be focusing your examples on martial arts but then expanding it to the rest of the world.
I'm just looking to clarify your position.

Lamont


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## Jenna (Aug 7, 2006)

Blindside said:
			
		

> So Jenna, do you believe that competition in any part of life is bad, or simply in the context of your martial art? You seem to be focusing your examples on martial arts but then expanding it to the rest of the world.
> I'm just looking to clarify your position.
> 
> Lamont


Hey Lamont  yes as dumb as it might sound my current belief is that competition.. while it may be beneficial to ones self interests.. precludes accord and harmony in the OVERALL sense..

My question is what is so good bout competition as I do not see any other benefits to competition in the arts beyond that of the individial practitioner.. and I guess that is good enough for most artists.. to me the arts can be so much more than thinking of yourself..

Yes I am doing exactly what you say and using the arts as a springboard into the big blue ocean of everything.. and but this has a particular relevance to my art which is Aikido and that is why I am asking.. Thing bout Aikido is that it was not designed with the purpose of fighting.. defence yes.. conciliation between parties yes.. conflict resolution yes.. fighting nope and nor does it condone competition between parties.. As I have quoted Saito Sensei founder of Iwama style that according to O'Sensei Aikido "..is a martial art of education with the aim of creating a beautiful and good society". It would not be any surprise that such a statement sounds corny.. that is perfectly fine.. I am not lecturing I am simply putting the point and asking for any considered thoughts either way..

I hope that has clarified my position for you? Tho my friend it would seem to me you are actually asking me a leading question.. rest assured you need no pretext to ask me anything.. I am not here to fight with anybody no sir.. as the song said Im always willing to learn when youve got something to teach 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## tempus (Aug 7, 2006)

I believe competition is good.  I love competition of the mind and body.  For example softball and football as physical / Chess and Warhammer 40k for the mind.  Not much competition in Aikido since it is defensive fighting.  However, if you plan on countering each others moves in training, Ura's, then I would think it could be a form of competition.

-Tempus


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## Yari (Aug 8, 2006)

Jenna said:
			
		

> Hey Lamont  yes as dumb as it might sound my current belief is that competition.. while it may be beneficial to ones self interests.. precludes accord and harmony in the OVERALL sense..
> 
> My question is what is so good bout competition as I do not see any other benefits to competition in the arts beyond that of the individial practitioner.. and I guess that is good enough for most artists.. to me the arts can be so much more than thinking of yourself..
> 
> ...


 
Do I understand it correctly that you mean that competition can work for the individual, but Aikido works for more than that?

It that is true how can you differ a persons actions/belifes and the influence a person has on the world.

If a person grows to be a better human being by doing something, is it not for something that the world will benifit from?

/Yari


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## stabpunch (Aug 8, 2006)

to the other end of the spectrum when competing with a colleague at work over some position perhaps is detrimental to harmony in the bigger sense and I think we are too narrowly focussed on ourselves to understand or accept that.. [/quote]

This part of your observation/question is very interesting. 


I refer to a course in strategic negotiation that I attended. In the course we talked about conflict which can be substituted for competition in this sense. 


As we have progressed so too our understanding of conflict. It has been suggested that conflict in early times was viewed as bad, to be avoided at all costs. Then as we progressed conflict was viewed as bad but unable to be avoided all the time, instead a blind eye was turned. A later movement accepted that conflict was bad, however could be managed. Now in modern times the view is that conflict is necessary for an organisation to survive and perhaps is not so bad when managed correctly. 


My thought is conflict or competition pushes the human animal to strive, as in nature the stronger animal eats. Without competition would we be progressing so quickly? Possibly not. Is such aggressive progression good? Probably not. Can we stop it? No but I guess we can manage it and control its direction... 

Just a thought :idunno:


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## stabpunch (Aug 8, 2006)

damn quote text  hehe


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## Jenna (Aug 8, 2006)

Yari said:
			
		

> Do I understand it correctly that you mean that competition can work for the individual, but Aikido works for more than that?
> 
> It that is true how can you differ a persons actions/belifes and the influence a person has on the world.
> 
> ...


Hey Yari  how are you.. To your first question .. well yes and no.. competition certainly can work for the individual I am not disputing that.. so far there are several good posts illustrating that point.. but that is all it is.. it is working to ones own ends.. You ask if Aikido works for more than that?? Well my friend Aikido is nothing but a set of techniques wrapped around a central core tenet of harmony.. Aikido can do absolutely NOTHING at all any more than the King James bible or the Koran.. No.. Aikido is impotent unless the practitioner has a desire to employ it correctly.. and but absolutely if an aikidoka practices what they preach then yes Aikido is an unparallelled vehicle to work to the greater good.. That is the whole issue that aikidoka do not care bout the philosophy but are rather concerned with technique technique technique.. oooh I can really put someone down hard if I do this.. or at best there is a desire to defend oneself regardless of what happens to the opponent.. how it is practiced is no reflection of how it was designed. Ueshiba did not design Aikido as a way of avoiding confrontation absolutely NOT.. but he designed it so that the confrontation could be concluded with no damage to either you OR your opponent.. there is no place to desire to compete with or DEFEAT anyone.. once I seek to defeat an opponent my mindset changes.. I will admit I have been caught on the wrong side of this on more than one occasion and but that was never my intention.. I do not seek to defeat nor compete..

and but you are aikidoka why am I telling this to you? 

Competition only benefits the individual ..whether that be a fighter during randori or a broker on the trading floor of the LSE.. no one is competing for anything beyond themselves.. And but that is just one point.. competition itself does not assist accord and has at its core the desire to defeat.. so tell me what is so good bout wanting to defeat someone? Tell me that my friend.. you enjoy competition? You enjoy defeating an opponent perhaps? Why so?

You tell me.. I set out to compete against you in a fight and defeat yout.. I might have learned and added to some technique.. but tell me how we have really benefitted anything?? .. my company wins a contract at the expense of yours.. my company now knows how to prepare great tenders for gaining new business.. still.. your company now has to go try find work for its employees.. does the world benefit from that? No.. individuals benefit.. society condones it but no.. there is no OVERALL benefit

Thank you for your thoughts  I appreciate it!!

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## Yari (Aug 8, 2006)

Jenna said:
			
		

> Hey Yari  how are you.. .......
> 
> 
> and but you are aikidoka why am I telling this to you?


 
I'm fine, thank you!



> .... Tell me that my friend.. you enjoy competition? You enjoy defeating an opponent perhaps? Why so?


 
Yes I enjoy any competition where my friend(s) and me can compete and walk away still being friends. Just like this argument. I might find that your argument is better than mine, or that your right og something else. But I stille go away knowing that this dispute isn't going to ruin anything, but will gain one of us, thus enrichning the whole world in the end.



> You tell me.. I set out to compete against you in a fight and defeat yout.. I might have learned and added to some technique.. but tell me how we have really benefitted anything??


 
It's all in the mindset. I hear what your saying is that copetition has a winner AND loser. But I'm trying to say there is a winner(whose willing to teach) and a learner(willing to learn). 



> Thank you for your thoughts  I appreciate it!!
> 
> Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
> Jenna


 
I thank you for starting such a difficult thread and sticking to it. That's a good way for all of us to learn...

/Yari


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## tempus (Aug 8, 2006)

I need to reply this one.  How does winning a competition make me feel?  It makes me feel great, superior, on top of the world.  I am the man.  I have defeated all who opposed and I like how it feels.  There is an honest answer.  What happens when I lose?  I hate it.  I feel weak and broken.  What do I do after a loss?  I train harder.  I study harder.  I strive for perfection so I cannot be defeated.  I review my pass actions and learn from them.  Where as defeating an opponent makes feel good, loosing benefits me from making me strive to be better.
The Nature of animals  The strong will survive and the weak will perish.  This is the nature of animals and man.  It has been this way since day one.  In my opinion competition is based off this rule.  Since in modern times we no longer need to really hunt for food or stay in packs, we use competition as our outlet for this basic instinct.  Work, sports life is now the outlet for the basic instinct.  It is in our nature to be the top dog.
You can talk peace, love, harmony, spirituality, balance, etc, but put humans back into any situation where survival is necessary and we will resort back to the nature of animals because it is how we were originally designed.
Just my honest answer and opinion.  Also, someone who, at 36, is still happily competiting with the same freinds from high school.  Just slower. 
-Tempus


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## Jenna (Aug 8, 2006)

Yari said:
			
		

> I'm fine, thank you!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hey Yari  thank you for following up with this..

yes I understand what you mean bout competing with your mates and have a big hug walk away afterwards.. but with regards to the likes of this here conversation of ours I would say that is mutually beneficial because it is NOT competitive.. you are seeking to put across your point as am I .. you are NOT seeking to compete with me or prove yourself better than me and nor am I .. yes we both benefit by exchange of ideas and but we are not competing.. For example.. you go look at the Study forum here where folk are beating each other over the heads with their own ideas.. that is perhaps a more appropriate comparison where a form of competition is detrimental and there are only very few glimpses of accord.. and who really benefits there where folk are just seeking their own self interests seeking to prove they are the best.. the best orators and debaters and bringing about little in the way of mutual learning and far too much in the way of enmity and dissonance.. maybe that makes more sense?? 

Sorry I am not the clearest .. but thank you for bearing with me on this..

yes you are saying there is room for TWO winners in competition? I would have to beg to differ.. ok let us say the loser has a philosophical disposition and is willing as you say.. to LEARN.. ok.. what would they learn? .. they would learn by their mistakes how NOT to get defeated.. and how would they employ that knowledge? They would employ it to subsequently defeat their own opponent next time around.. that is a vicious circle and is just a string of defeats through competition.. no one really moves along.. the only thing enhanced is the individual practitioners.. I do not think there is any greater benefit.. and I understand folk will say.. yeah Jenna.. so what? Well I would be sad to think the arts were only used for each individual at a time with little regard for the needs of the wider society in which they operate..

My point is that if competition is eschewed then there may be equal or greater scope for mutual learning between parties.. and sorry again if this sounds all arty farty .. it is what I believe and I am seeking no converts my friend.. just opinions.. again.. I can only thank you for yours and for your patience..

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## Yari (Aug 8, 2006)

Jenna said:
			
		

> Hey Yari  thank you for following up with this..
> 
> .....
> they would learn by their mistakes how NOT to get defeated.. and how would they employ that knowledge? They would employ it to subsequently defeat their own opponent next time around.. .....
> ...


 
Yes, when I lose I try to do better. the goal to win. But if to win is to kick somebodies teeth out, or getting somebody to feel bad. Then it's not a part of competition I want. Not saying that there isn't this part in competition, but syaing that these negativ parts are what sonsist of competition isn't correct.

It' boils down to what mindset you put into competition, and that mindset is also how you define competition.

I cann't disagree with you about the negativ parts of competition. They are not as constructive as hamonies competition. And in the extrem people /worlds get hurt, and that shouldn't happen.

Now the greatest problem is the fundamental right to choose your own philosofy. So the quesiton about competition is really not a question about competition but about how to handle competition. And therefor a question about which mindset you aproach things/people with.

/Yari


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## Jenna (Aug 8, 2006)

tempus said:
			
		

> You can talk peace, love, harmony, spirituality, balance, etc, but put humans back into any situation where survival is necessary and we will resort back to the nature of animals because it is how we were originally designed.


yes tempus-san  you have it right there in a nutshell.. that is the issue at its most primal.. we are designed this way.. and but in that situation let me ask you a contrived up hypothetical question.. say you are abandoned somewhere no resources little food.. I dunno middle of the arctic perhaps .. you and your partner wife g/f b/f whatever.. someone you love or care deeply for.... and after a time and failing of hypothermia you stumble somehow on a coat made of thick furskin.. do you pick it up wear it yourself? or give it to your partner? survival says you take it for yourself.. what is it that would make you give it up for your partner? End of hypothetical..

anyways apologies that is to take us away from competition in the arts.. and but that is just another symptom of the same ailment.. Talk to me bout any aspect of it absolutely.. and but I am still a little unswayed to the benefits of competition to anything but the individual.. Is that all there is to the martial arts.. focus on the self? Maybe..

Thank you again 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## Jenna (Aug 8, 2006)

Yari said:
			
		

> Now the greatest problem is the fundamental right to choose your own philosofy. So the quesiton about competition is really not a question about competition but about how to handle competition. And therefor a question about which mindset you aproach things/people with.
> 
> /Yari


Thank you again Yari  ok well certainly I read all what you said.. and but I want to agree with the above.. I think that is exactly right you have taken it back a step and you are saying that competition is not inherently bad but rather the intention of the competitors.. well.. I will nod my head to that certainly.. 

I would only add that I do not believe folk compete in whatever endeavours out of any desire for mutual betterment but simply to defeat their opponent.. that I believe is how its done and that is the whole point of competition.. to prove yourself better than others and which I would be bold to say that such a mentality is not the peak of enlightenment in the arts but it is just the way it is.. nor is it a valid interpretation of the sort of teachings of O'Sensei.. imnsvho  

Thank you again my friend 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## tempus (Aug 8, 2006)

Simple....I would give it to my wife with out hesitation.  However, if it were a stanger they were dead and I would be warm.  Granted the primal need can be over turned with ones thought process, but to me its black or white.

Then again everything is easy to answer in the hypothetical world.  In reality everything changes.

-Tempus


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## pstarr (Aug 8, 2006)

The word "shiai" (tournament) actually refers to "testing yourself."  This is the original spirit of competition.  It has, of course, gone far beyond that noble concept but we can strive to bring it back by employing forms of competition (not necessarily formal contests, per se) for purposes of self-improvement.

It isn't about beating someone else or proving you're better than they are; it's about truly testing yourself against someone of equal or even greater skill.  This needn't be done in a tournament setting - it can be achieved in the dojo from time to time...just a sort of "reality check" to see how you're doing.


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## Yari (Aug 9, 2006)

pstarr said:
			
		

> .......just a sort of "reality check" to see how you're doing.


 
A very good comment!!!!!!!!


/yari


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## Yari (Aug 9, 2006)

Jenna said:
			
		

> ......
> 
> I would only add that I do not believe folk compete in whatever endeavours out of any desire for mutual betterment but simply to defeat their opponent..


 
I think your right on there. Most people do competition with the soul intent to win. Others stay away because ofthis intent. BUT...... That doesn't mean that competition can't be good. But it's difficult for a competition to be good if the intent is "wrong".

But it looks like you understand my point.





> that I believe is how its done and that is the whole point of competition.. to prove yourself better than others and which I would be bold to say that such a mentality is not the peak of enlightenment in the arts ........
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Have you ever seen ECCO challenge? A group consisting of 4 people trying to get from point A to B. The groups are competiting against each other, but there is no "I'll step on you " to win, and the teams help each other if they can. 

Thank you for keeping at it Jenna. 

/yari


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## MartialIntent (Aug 9, 2006)

Jenna,




			
				Jenna said:
			
		

> I know you enjoy your tournament stuff and but for me I have watched the Tomiki tournaments and they do not fit properly to my eyes..


Hehe, yeah, in the tournaments I compete at, nothing seems to "fit" either - in fact pretty much everything I care to try doesn't quite "fit" anything bar a good definition of "needs more practise" LOL  I can't argue with you, and can only echo what *Yari* has already said and that's that folk compete with different mindsets and I don't believe there's any malice or bad intent for the most part at least [yeah I've had an opponent previously whose intent was plainly to break me and he did actually - he busted my nose in his overzealousness, hehe]. I admit I compete to win. If I could turn it round slightly though, I'd say that I compete to *win* but I don't set out with an intention to *defeat* anyone, though of course that's what happens if I do manage to win. I don't know if I can explain that adequately but I think the differences in mindset between wanting to win and wanting to defeat someone are subtle. I'm sure you can grasp that one.

Of course that just addresses one part of your question and doesn't perhaps give an answer to the title of the thread. I'm happy to admit I can't do that in the context of how the obvious competition benefits actually extend _beyond_ the individual party, but since you've got that knack of taking in the whole panarama, let me ask you what do you think it would take to change a competitive way of thinking so radically? Could it ever be done? I don't believe so. I think as *Kacey* said, competitiveness is ingrained in our psyche - it's a primal thing whereby we competed for food, space and shelter in hostile environments. How would it be possible to change something so instinctual in most folk? There now - consider that "check". I await _your_ move 

Respects!


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## theletch1 (Aug 10, 2006)

Is the problem truly competition or is it conflict?  I hate conflict.  Don't care to be in the middle of a conflict nor do I care to be around those who are in conflict with others.  Competition, to my mind, is something else all together.  I guess Yari has done it again and stated so well what I was unable to voice and that is that it's all in the mindset.


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## Jenna (Aug 24, 2006)

MartialIntent said:
			
		

> Jenna,
> 
> 
> Hehe, yeah, in the tournaments I compete at, nothing seems to "fit" either - in fact pretty much everything I care to try doesn't quite "fit" anything bar a good definition of "needs more practise" LOL  I can't argue with you, and can only echo what *Yari* has already said and that's that folk compete with different mindsets and I don't believe there's any malice or bad intent for the most part at least [yeah I've had an opponent previously whose intent was plainly to break me and he did actually - he busted my nose in his overzealousness, hehe]. I admit I compete to win. If I could turn it round slightly though, I'd say that I compete to *win* but I don't set out with an intention to *defeat* anyone, though of course that's what happens if I do manage to win. I don't know if I can explain that adequately but I think the differences in mindset between wanting to win and wanting to defeat someone are subtle. I'm sure you can grasp that one.
> ...


 
Well MI now I aint rising to no challenges.. tho if you wanna meet me over on Gameknot.com well.. you know where I am, ha! OK so you are asking how to get rid of an inherent competitive mindset and which is a polar opposite of harmony in a MUCH bigger sense?? Well.. I will suggest politely to you that perhaps you are looking at this as a train driver up and down the tracks one way only and not as a Landcruiser 4x4 driver who can go all around and bouts and through the trees.. and by that I mean I do not think that we should get rid of this instinct at all.. as frankly it is a waste of time and nigh on impossible to purge true INSTINCTS.. they are hardwired and not for lobotomising off.. Instead I would suggest that our OTHER instincts should be focussed upon more stongly and consciously and built up.. and by OTHER instincts I mean primarily our instincts for tending or if you wish to call it caring or nurturing.. and there is a great deal of research to suggest that while this is primarily a female instinct it is also highly prevalent in males.. and I am certainly not referring solely to maternal and paternal instincts but yes that is a factor..

And people say and have said here also ..oooh.. if there was no competition we would still be swinging from the trees and but I would only say if there was no instinctive NURTURING and caring for each other we would all be as abandoned orphans swaying back and forward in squalid cribs for dearth of care or attention.. and that is what lack of nurturing does and leaves people either children OR adults in a highly fragile state.. and I think there is a certain parallel between too much of the one instinct ie. .competitiveness leading to defeat of a person and that same person being subject to too little of the other instincts nurturing and caring.. anyways.. just a tuppence theory and which is not to say it is relevant..

And ok we are asking so what has all this to do with our precious fighting? well.. instead of having as our goal victory and defeating others on or off mats .. if we worked on having our instinctual caring and tending for our compatriates and opponents as the primary focus instead of a far distant afterthought then maybe things would be a little different.. yeah I am even naive enough you would say to claim that this would be to the better of society as a whole if there was just the littlest move in attitude from a competitive getting on moving on up climbing the ladders mentality to one of non competitiveness and harmonisation.. Yeah so you are gonna say oooh but what about when I am attacked.. Well someone comes to you with the intention of harming you that does not mean you put your arms around them and give them a hug and but at the same time it does not mean you would have the desire to smash defeat and destroy them.. there is a place for peaceable conflict resolution for ALL parties and that is the essence of Aikido.. I think it is unfortunate that to me anyways.. most martial artists and certainly aikidoka.. act in this competitive way and then subsequently hide behind a sort of double effect argument.. I destroyed and killed him and but I didnt really mean to.. honest.. pffft.. sorry.. I mean this for anyone needing reminded..

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/double-effect/

Well anyways.. I think I am just talking backwards at myself and so I just want to genuinely and sincerely thank everyone again for all contributions I am grateful  time to climb back in the sarcophagus drag across the lid I think 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## jujutsu_indonesia (Aug 26, 2006)

Jenna said:
			
		

> It is ok to compete with yourself in order to push yourself through boundaries to better yourself and but what is so good bout competing with someone else in order to beat them? That is the whole point of competition it is not for the sake of betterment.. it is simply to defeat someone.. where is the benefit in that? Why is competition in MA so commonplace and prevalent? question..
> Thank you for your thoughts on this
> Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
> Jenna


 
Only the Aikikai style has explicitly stated its opposition to competition. Other styles started by Uyeshiba sensei's senior prewar students such as the Yoseikan of Mochizuki sensei (http://www.yoseikan-budo.org/), the Tomiki/Shodokan-ryu Aikido of Tomiki sensei (http://www.tomiki.org/) and maybe some others has competitions.

I think competition can enhance the skill levels of Aikidoka, as long as it is kept as only one of the training methods, not as the main goal of training.

It is better to be lousy in competitions, but has the right mind of an aikidoka (the peaceful, loving and harmonious mind), rather than become very good at winning, but has the wrong attitude.


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## P A Goldsbury (Oct 21, 2006)

pstarr said:


> The word "shiai" (tournament) actually refers to "testing yourself." This is the original spirit of competition. It has, of course, gone far beyond that noble concept but we can strive to bring it back by employing forms of competition (not necessarily formal contests, per se) for purposes of self-improvement.
> 
> It isn't about beating someone else or proving you're better than they are; it's about truly testing yourself against someone of equal or even greater skill. This needn't be done in a tournament setting - it can be achieved in the dojo from time to time...just a sort of "reality check" to see how you're doing.


 
Hello,

I am sure you are right about the value of competition, but I am not sure that this is the base meaning of _shiai_. As far as I understand matters, _shiai_ (&#35430;&#21512 means a match or tournament, something that happens in a stadium, while &#31478;&#20105; (_kyousou_) means rivalry, or competition, in a more abstract sense.

I have in front of me _Takemusu Aiki_, the lectures given in Japanese by Morihei Ueshiba to the Byakko Shinko-kai and published in 1986. On pages 49 and 50 he explains why Japanese Budo is not sport. He uses two terms: _sport_, written in katakana as &#12473;&#12509;&#12540;&#12484;, and _kyousou_. He stresses that the _kyousou_ in sports, especially western-style sports, is the wrong kind of _kyousou_, since it is not proper _kyousou_ of the spirit.

It is unfortunate that these lectures have not been translated into English, though there is a partial translation by Sonoko Tanaka and Stanley Pranin, which appeared in the print issue of _Aikido Journal_ and can be found somewhere on the AJ website. Thus, to translate the terms used by Saito Morihiro Sensei in the interview given in Jenna's first post as _competition_ is somewhat misleading, since both _shiai_ and _kyousou_ can be translated in this way.

When I first read _Takemusu Aiki_, I felt that Morihei Ueshiba misunderstood what sport is all about, since it is pretty clear that sport has great value, physically and spiritually. However, all he is actually saying is that Japanese budo is not like western-style sport and Jigoro Kano, who was Japan's first member of the International Olympic Committee, also expressed similar misgivings about the developments of his own brainchild, judo. On the other hand, Kano strongly believed in the educational value of judo and Kenji Tomiki, his student, strongly believed in the educational value of a limited form of competitive _randori_ in aikido. At Waseda University, where he was a teacher, he introduced 'competition' aikido as an academic subject, in order to satisfy the rules set out by the judo 'establishment' at the university.

Best wishes,


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