# Can Kenpoists achieve "Mushin" aka the state of "mind of no mind"?



## Old Fat Kenpoka (Dec 12, 2003)

Another thread recently wandered off topic and started debating the conept of "Mushin" or "mind of no mind".  Do you think this is possible or that it exists?  Do you think Kenpoists can achieve this state?  Even if you don't buy the classical theory, can you correlate it to phases or levels in Kenpo training?

I first heard of this concept about 30 years ago.  This is what I learned at the time...  The idea is that martial artists and others progress through several phases of reactive consciousness in the course of their training.

First is the "Earth" phase. The untrained fighter would freeze when attacked. The trained martial artist would hold their position in a solid stance blocking attacks and countering from a stable position.  Not advancing and not retreating.

Second is the "Water" phase.  The untrained fighter would flee.  The trained fighter would move constantly becoming an elusive target and countering from ever-changing positions.

Third is the "Fire" phase.  A fighter will fight vigorously attacking with flurries of techniques.

"Wind" is the penultimate phase.  A fighter will use the mind and create and utilize a strategic advantage or technique to outwit and defeat the opponent.

Fifth is the "Mind of no Mind"  or "Mushin" is the ultimate phase.  The fighter has no preconceived plan and can spontaneously and effortlessly react from any of the four previous phases.

Personally, I don't think there is any mystical mumbo jumbo in this classical analysis.  I do think this is a decent analysis of possible reactions. I do think that spontaneous reaction tailored to the situation is the goal of Kenpo and other martial arts training.


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## clapping_tiger (Dec 12, 2003)

I think so. Although I have not even come close to acheiving this, it is my ultimate goal. That is why I have Mushin under my name. I have experienced it in a small way, I think we all have at some point. When doing a drill, or messing around with a buddy. You seem to know excatly where the attack will be coming from. And without thinking and with what seems like little effort, you are always one step ahead of the person. There was one time when one of my fellow Black Belts walked by me and out of the blue turned and started punching and kicking at me. I blocked every shot, about 5 or six shots, without thinking about it, it just happened.


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## MJS (Dec 12, 2003)

Sure, I believe that it is possible.  The Sd techs. that we have, are IMO, a base to give the new student something to work from.  Eventually, they should not rely on those set techs. but rather react to the situation at hand.  It is impossible to know what you would do in a given situation.  You could have the same attack thrown at you 2 times, and you'll probably react in a different way each time.  We all know how to block, punch, kick, move, evade, etc.  It just a matter of doing all of this w/o thinking about it.  Do you have to think about how to tie your shoes, brush your teeth, start your car, etc? No, of course not.  Why? Because we have been doing it sooo long it comes natural to us.  The same can be said for the arts.  

Mike


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## Rob Broad (Dec 12, 2003)

Isn't that the goal of everyone in every art.  To be able to react with out thought.


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## pete (Dec 12, 2003)

anything less than that would be transmitting too much information to your opponent, and ultimately put you at a disadvantage.  the essense of the martial arts is to internalize the motion learned from your training so that your defenses and subsequent counter attacks flow without a preconceived plan.  of course, we must all train diligently in our chosen style to get there.


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## Rob Broad (Dec 12, 2003)

If you do not get bogged down into traditionalizing kenpo, and follow the art with its original intent, you will be able achieve Mushin.


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## Basicman (Dec 12, 2003)

I think anyone can develop this and I do not feel it is just limited to martial arts.  Look at pianist.  They have to practice countless hours to become "good".  Swimmers are the same way, learning form for strokes improves effencicy and speed.  I think that this can take place in anything in life as long as you train your nervous system.

Take care -- John


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## RCastillo (Dec 13, 2003)

Of course it's very possible. It happens to me when my "buttons are pushed." I'm serious!:asian: 

Now, If I could only be like that all the time!


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## Brother John (Dec 13, 2003)

I have this book on it:
Flow: The Psychology of Optimal Experience, By Mihaly 

Just found a follow up I think I'll get:
Flow in Sports, By  Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, Susan A. Jackson 

In the Japanese martial arts where this term is used (it's a zen term, much borrowed by martial artists...and for good reason) see this as something than ANYONE can achieve... priests, artisans, warriors....housecleaning.
The direct interpretation "No-Mind" can be cumbersome to the western mind though. I really like how Mihaly puts it.
Good stuff.

Your Brother
John


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## Kenpomachine (Dec 14, 2003)

If what i think mushin is, I have reached it seldom. For me, it was like being concentrated on the task at hand, while detached from it, aware of what's happening around you, but only "hearing" what can be of inmediate use. It's a curious state, niether similar to driving a car, nor even to dinamic meditation (meditating while doing a form, i.e.)

After looking back to the situation, it's all in a kind of fuzzy cloud. 

That's been my experience with mushin insofar.


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## Seig (Dec 16, 2003)

Let me counter a question with a question.  Have you ever been sparring with one student, corrected another, avoided someone else who was sparring, and answered someone else's question, all without getting hit?  I think most instructors that have been around a while can answer this in the affirmative......


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Dec 16, 2003)

Yes!  And I took a cell-phone call at the same time!


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## clapping_tiger (Dec 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Basicman _
> *I think anyone can develop this and I do not feel it is just limited to martial arts.  Look at pianist.  They have to practice countless hours to become "good".  Swimmers are the same way, learning form for strokes improves effencicy and speed.  I think that this can take place in anything in life as long as you train your nervous system.
> 
> Take care -- John *



I agree, and you don't have to limit it to sports, or combat. From what I have read anytime you can preform a "complexe" task without having to think about it, you have acheived Mushin, for that task. How many of us can type what we are thinking without even realizing your fingers are finding the right keys, for the most part. Or driving, think about all you are doing at one time, and you no longer have to think about it. But I think acheiving Mushin in combat, is a little bit more difficult. You have the fear factor to overcome first to be able to let your mind go.


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## Zoran (Jan 22, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> * Do you think Kenpoists can achieve this state? *



That all depends on how you train. We can all touch on this phase, but to sustain that phase, while in a high stress situation, can be another thing.

Playing the piano or typing on a keyboard is fine. With enough practice, one can do that with out thought. So what happens if while you are typing you get an electrical shock every time you mizpel a wrd....ouch.  You may become more careful and start thinking before those fingers move again.

The same can be said with your training. If anyone thinks that constantly training in a friendly, stress free, happily practicing you techs and forms, and doing some very light point sparring, will prepare you for the day when your life, or a loved ones, is in danger...anyway, you get my drift.

My point is proper training is the key. With it, your odds of achieving "Mushin" when you really need it can improve dramatically.


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## TIGER DRAGON FIGHT (Jul 20, 2004)

i have not achieve this state but i do believe you can. i do beleive you can go to a place where anything that comes at you where its physical or mental that without reacting conciously you act subconciously to the moment and it just feels right. no matter what you do, you are free of restrictive thought, that you act only when it is time, like the dragon "rides the wind":jedi1:


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## Michael Billings (Jul 21, 2004)

_*YES!

*_And it is is summed up by White Belts getting dirty from sweat and work until they are Brown.  You are then in your Brown Belt an equal amount of time as it took you to get Brown (or should be), then your get to really start learning at Black Belt.  Eventually your Black Belt turns white again, through training, maturity and discipline. You learn so much and train so hard (and in Kenpo it is nice to bring the mind along with training the body ... but not always required), so that eventually you can forget it all and just react, without thought, without malice, and maybe with little emotion (until it is over). 

 Mushin, no mind, reacting and not thinking, or mind "like the moon" reflecting back all, or "like water" without a ripple. Wow - I must be tired to actually be articulating this stuff I usually keep quiet about. Think of it as a different framework, or paradigm in which to analyze things, rather than as anything new, or too classical. We hopefully do acheive Mushin, even if we do not call it that. Train something so many times that when we need it, it is not a thought about action, in fact there is not thought, just action ... a response to another's actions.






 (I am so full of it sometimes - or at least I know better than to talk about it)
  -Michael


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## hedgehogey (Jul 22, 2004)

I believe no-mind to be best achieved through alive training. After all, why learn dead patterns to achieve spontaneity in the first place? Why not be spontaneous from the beggining? 

I've briefly experienced mushin in muay thai and grappling. Once, I threw a thai kick, which was caught. Apperantly I jumped over my own caught leg (possibly a flip, but not high at all), somehow used the momentum to entangle my opponent's leg and whipped his knee down to end up doing a half boston crab. The description sounds silly, but i'm reconstructing here. At the time, I didn't know what I was doing. I didn't think about it.

Or a triangle I slapped on a much bigger newbie who was passing my guard. I didn't think about it. I just put it on. 

I hope to have more of these moments soon, but I won't seek the out, because when you seek it you don't find it, as we all know.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jul 22, 2004)

yes. But I think it's easier to learn in fencing, then to transition it to kenpo.


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## KenpoDave (Jul 22, 2004)

Since the introduction of message boards, I have seen kenpo topics analyzed and over-analyzed until finally, the "paralysis of analysis" stage is reached.

So, yes, kenpoists can achieve a state of no mind. :btg:


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jul 23, 2004)

KenpoDave said:
			
		

> Since the introduction of message boards, I have seen kenpo topics analyzed and over-analyzed until finally, the "paralysis of analysis" stage is reached.
> 
> So, yes, kenpoists can achieve a state of no mind. :btg:


:rofl:


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## Michael Billings (Jul 23, 2004)

KenpoDave said:
			
		

> Since the introduction of message boards, I have seen kenpo topics analyzed and over-analyzed until finally, the "paralysis of analysis" stage is reached.
> 
> So, yes, kenpoists can achieve a state of no mind. :btg:


 You are implying we HAVE a mind to start with ... not always an accurate statement


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jul 23, 2004)

An interesting implication of the tradition of no-mind is not so much the simple act of getting out of ones own way, as much as silencing the mental chatter of the lower mind, and surrendering the control of the physical form to the Spirit. That is to say, in the state of mushin, the fighter ceases to be concerned with the interplays and consequences of actions or activity, and surrenders to the Soul, which then pilots the body like a puppeteer working a marionette (sp?).

While the easy way out is to re-define mushin as a culturally-specific conceptualization of "flow", or optimal states of performance mentality, a question of equal import would be to ask 'How many Kenpoists believe in the notion of a Spiritual Self, apart from and in addition to the daily Self, that could step in and drive the car for you if your were able to get out of it's way? While in the witness-self mode associated with no-mind/spirit-mind, who do you believe is driving the bus?'

Having moved in to (or been moved in to) this state on a couple occasions, I've come to believe the metaphysical component of the idea: That our daily mind is a smaller side of the iceberg of Self, or Mind, and that the larger part is capable of directly interfacing with the command and control centers of the body and mind, to push us to levels of performance not accessible in unaltered states. Not scientific, but what the heck...even Einstein pondered that there was more to creation than meets the eye.

Is there room in scientific kenpo for mystic models of mind? If the mystics are right, and the psychoneurologists wrong, is there room for mushin (spirit-moved mind) in the kenpo of Western Christian practitioners (since many on this board have professed in other threads to having such leanings)?

Just curious,

Dave


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## Mekugi (Jul 23, 2004)

AHHH yes...Zen and all it's trappings. 


Until you have performed zazen, none of you will ever truly know Mushin the "way it is supposed to be".  
That is to say, you have to sit on a cushion on the floor in a tiny, overheated room, have an Abbot monk walk around behind you and smack you with a piece of wood suddenly and without due cause "as a blessing" or "to keep you focused". Meanwhile your legs falling asleep and because that stupid Abbot is sneaking up behind and thwapping you, there is no way to catch a nap. Just as you start to relax, "WHAP" there is that stupid Abbot again with his little board. You end up clenching your teeth and thinking "I Nevermind....I don't mind...it's ok...don't think about it" to keep from standing up and beating the monk to death with his own piece of thin pine. Then, as a "thanks" you have the ability to give them a donation for the blessed event, which empties out your wallet- another state of zen I suppose. NoYen-Noflow I think they call it. Now this is the most important part of mushin, because you have to act as if you "no-mind" what just happened. 
:whip:
Anyway, my wooden nickle. I think I would much rather take a nap to sharpen up my senses.


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## Michael Billings (Jul 23, 2004)

7 years of meditating Za-Zen before I figured out TM was much easier on my knees, back, and just as "settling", that is, allowing the thoughts to come and allow them to go without criticism (harder than you think ... especially when you are not "supposed" to be thinking), now I am really getting confused. Not a bad state to start from. 

 -Michael


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## mj-hi-yah (Jul 24, 2004)

Mekugi said:
			
		

> AHHH yes...Zen and all it's trappings.
> 
> 
> Until you have performed zazen, none of you will ever truly know Mushin the "way it is supposed to be".
> ...


I was at a gathering tonight and a husband and wife were discussing this. The husband is very devoted to this aspect of his training and the wife, who'd also experienced this like you, said, "I'd rather take a nap!!!" LOL :uhyeah: Thanks for your description. If he asks me to try it, I think I'll opt out!


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## Mekugi (Jul 24, 2004)

I'm glad I am not the only one.



			
				mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> I was at a gathering tonight and a husband and wife were discussing this. The husband is very devoted to this aspect of his training and the wife, who'd also experienced this like you, said, "I'd rather take a nap!!!" LOL :uhyeah: Thanks for your description. If he asks me to try it, I think I'll opt out!


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## Kenpomachine (Jul 24, 2004)

Well, I know I have achieved this state at least twice: first time while playing chess in school, second time while performing a form in a championship.

 Both times were different, as the first time it was as I felt into a trance, and only went out of it when the match ended. Second time was... well, I don't know how to describe it, I was so focused in the form that I could continue doing it even though I messed it all up. And then, I just realized that I didn't know which form I was doing. I sometimes think what would have come up if I haven't got out of the no-mind state in the middle of the form


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## Rainman (Jul 24, 2004)

mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> I was at a gathering tonight and a husband and wife were discussing this. The husband is very devoted to this aspect of his training and the wife, who'd also experienced this like you, said, "I'd rather take a nap!!!" LOL :uhyeah: Thanks for your description. If he asks me to try it, I think I'll opt out!




If you want real power I would not opt out of it.   It is the purest part of all martial arts not just American Kenpo.


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## mj-hi-yah (Jul 25, 2004)

Mekugi said:
			
		

> I'm glad I am not the only one.


No you are not alone. I see you live in Japan. This couple I was telling you about they lived there for five years also and began this practice there, but continue it here. After hearing their discussion I gather that it is something that is for the strong willed. The wife described it as "horrible" to me. You sit on your knees for many hours and your legs throb, but you can not move. When you do you get hit! These people study Aikido. Zen is a part of their training. There are specific breathing exercises and sitting zazen is encouraged, but not required. I have not myself ever heard of Kenpo stylists practicing zazen. Had I not met this couple I wouldn't even have known it was a modern practice. If I tried this, I think I would have to work up to it. 




			
				Rainman said:
			
		

> If you want real power I would not opt out of it. It is the purest part of all martial arts not just American Kenpo.


In Kenpo I think there have been a couple of times where I have felt a "no mind" state of being. These have been during times of stress usually in sparring or during "blind attacks" where you are attacked and must react without hesitation or thought. The preparation for this state of being has been many many hours of consistent practice and sometimes intense training. I can not, at this point achieve this state of being at will. I have not yet used meditation to try and enhance my unconscious awareness, but I am interested in trying some form of it. I'm just not sure that a whole day of sitting zazen is right for me. Have you ever sat zazen? If so, how did you find it? If not, what do you do to achieve a state of "no mind"?

MJ :asian:


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jul 26, 2004)

mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> I have not yet used meditation to try and enhance my unconscious awareness, but I am interested in trying some form of it. I'm just not sure that a whole day of sitting zazen is right for me. Have you ever sat zazen? If so, how did you find it? If not, what do you do to achieve a state of "no mind"?
> 
> MJ :asian:


One of my favorite meditations is a form of self-inquiry. Near as I can tell, it was positied by Ramana Maharsi to folks like Yogananda and Brunton, and consists mainly of turning the attention inward, and asking, "Who am I, really?".

Ideas will come and go...you just allow them to enter the realm of awareness, without judgement, and acknowledge that each emerging idea is a part of your Self, but not a total answer. Acknowledge the idea, then push it to the side a bit (so to speak) to look deeper past it, and inquire again, deeper still..."That may be part of who I am, but not all that I am.  Who am I, really?".

You need to be willing to sit with responses sent up from the deep mind that may have been material you previously defended against (tried to push out of mind, rather than ponder and think about, much less embrace as part of You). If you stay with this approach, you should eventually reach a point where the part of you who knows steps forward in introduction, and you get to meet the Mystic Mind within each and all.

Will it change you into a Buddhist saint, or Hindi Sage? Nope.  You'll still be who you are. But you will hopefully have had a brief interaction with the Divine within, which has a net effect of changing the overall colors of glass one percieces life through. Basically, thins the veil so that the potentcy of Spirit is closer to consciousness. Or so they tell me.

Bon Chance!

D.


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## Mekugi (Jul 26, 2004)

mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> When you do you get hit! <?>





			
				mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> MJ :asian:




I think this is a question.....so I will go a little further to explain it....

There are three major types of Bukkyo (Buddhism) in Japan, Rinzai, Soto and Obaku. 
What I am talking about is the Rinzai sect, -the first- zen to Japan. The other groups may practice something similar, but it is not the same. 

The Rinzai sect was developed by a guy named Rinzai Gigen Zenji, who went to China to seek enlightenment. He came back with something very unusual, at least to what was being practiced in Japan- which was coined Zazen. In fact he could be said to be the person who truly introduced zen to Japan, along with the practice of Zazen, around the 9th century. At first it wasn't popular, it took a little while for his teaching to catch on, but when it did it truly set the house on fire.

Now, his method involved hitting, shouting and parables as part of shaking the student loose of their own bodily entrapments. The point was to make or *allow* the student to feel the teachings, to truly understand them in their own lives- and not just to leave them as words on pages in books. 

Like that there.

-Russ


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## mj-hi-yah (Jul 26, 2004)

Mekugi said:
			
		

> I think this is a question.....so I will go a little further to explain it....
> 
> There are three major types of Bukkyo (Buddhism) in Japan, Rinzai, Soto and Obaku.
> What I am talking about is the Rinzai sect, -the first- zen to Japan. The other groups may practice something similar, but it is not the same.
> ...


Very interesting, thanks Russ for sharing that! We didn't discuss the act of sitting zazen in great detail, so I was not aware of the aspect of listening to teachings. I just assumed they were to meditate and be introspective - clearing their minds. Is the term zen named after Rinzai Gigen Zenji? In terms of Kenpo I have read Ed Parker's book The Zen in Kenpo and found it to be more of a collection of thoughts rather than a method to achieve "Mushin". Russ do you know, or anyone else, if any time in Kenpo history zen was an integral part of Kenpo philosophy or teachings? 

MJ :asian:


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## Mekugi (Jul 26, 2004)

Well, Zen itself&#12288;&#31109; means "Silent Meditation" and is called "chan" in the Chinese- so no- it wasn't named after Rinzai Gigen. The Left radical of zen means "Shimesu"- to point out or show, and the right is "tan" -meaning simple or single, while we are talking about it. 

This kind of sounds like a jerk thing to say so pardon in advance, but what kempo are you talking about? Kempo is a borrowed word and general term, more or less, and could be used to describe many different "martial arts" that were using it, if that makes sense.

-Russ




			
				mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> Very interesting, thanks Russ for sharing that! We didn't discuss the act of sitting zazen in great detail, so I was not aware of the aspect of listening to teachings. I just assumed they were to meditate and be introspective - clearing their minds. Is the term zen named after Rinzai Gigen Zenji? In terms of Kenpo I have read Ed Parker's book The Zen in Kenpo and found it to be more of a collection of thoughts rather than a method to achieve "Mushin". Russ do you know, or anyone else, if any time in Kenpo history zen was an integral part of Kenpo philosophy or teachings?
> 
> MJ :asian:


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## mj-hi-yah (Jul 26, 2004)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> One of my favorite meditations is a form of self-inquiry. Near as I can tell, it was positied by Ramana Maharsi to folks like Yogananda and Brunton, and consists mainly of turning the attention inward, and asking, "Who am I, really?".
> 
> Ideas will come and go...you just allow them to enter the realm of awareness, without judgement, and acknowledge that each emerging idea is a part of your Self, but not a total answer. Acknowledge the idea, then push it to the side a bit (so to speak) to look deeper past it, and inquire again, deeper still..."That may be part of who I am, but not all that I am. Who am I, really?".
> 
> ...


Dr. Dave,

Thanks! Sorry I missed this post. OK there just might be a little joke in asking who am I? but I won't say it. :lol: Actually, Dr. Dave this seems fairly doable. It seems easier than what I've done in yoga classes to simply try and clear the mind. That is almost impossible...thoughts invade. This way allows for that. I like it, and will give it a try! How long do you usually sit for?

I'm curious, since you say, "or so they tell me," are you being modest or have you at all achieved this state as a Kenpoist, or experienced any benefits you can describe, as a result of this practice?  

MJ :asian:


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## mj-hi-yah (Jul 26, 2004)

Mekugi said:
			
		

> This kind of sounds like a jerk thing to say so pardon in advance, but what kempo are you talking about? Kempo is a borrowed word and general term, more or less, and could be used to describe many different "martial arts" that were using it, if that makes sense.
> 
> -Russ


 Please no pardon necessary, if sincere, there are no questions that aren't worthy of being asked...I do know what you mean as I see we are actually in the_ Kenpo/Kempo forum_. Sorry Russ, I wasn't thinking. LOL, maybe I should meditate on that.  

I study American Kenpo mostly EPAK. When I asked the question I was thinking more specifically EPAK. I was just curious if any of the Kenpo (EPAK) schools/instructors promote meditation in any of the forms described to help students achieve a state of "no mind" in their training, or if it's achieved more through the training itself. 

It would also be interesting to hear from other Kenpo/Kempo people on this as well though.

Thanks,
MJ :asian:


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## Mekugi (Jul 26, 2004)

mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> , I wasn't thinking. LOL, maybe I should meditate on that.


Yes indeed....you have reached the apex of zen which is to achieve "no thought". You are now automatically enlightened, pick up your membership card at the door.!   See I just don't bother not thinking, which makes me "no mind" by default, which involves even less thought.....(you must be a zen master to follow....)




			
				mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> , When I asked the question I was thinking more specifically EPAK.


Yeah that's totally out of my league. I have no idea. <---There it is again! NO THOUGHT!! 
I am a zen master....or just stupid.

-Russ


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## mj-hi-yah (Jul 26, 2004)

Mekugi said:
			
		

> Yes indeed....you have reached the apex of zen which is to achieve "no thought". You are now automatically enlightened, pick up your membership card at the door.!  See I just don't bother not thinking, which makes me "no mind" by default, which involves even less thought.....(you must be a zen master to follow....) I have no idea. <---There it is again! NO THOUGHT!!
> I am a zen master....or just stupid.


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Oh my *gawd* it's so simple it's complicated! You've given me a lot to* not* think about!:lookie: 
MJ :lookie:


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jul 27, 2004)

mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> Dr. Dave,
> 
> Thanks! Sorry I missed this post. OK there just might be a little joke in asking who am I? but I won't say it. :lol: Actually, Dr. Dave this seems fairly doable. It seems easier than what I've done in yoga classes to simply try and clear the mind. That is almost impossible...thoughts invade. This way allows for that. I like it, and will give it a try! How long do you usually sit for?
> 
> ...


I've had some outstanding results with this meditation. Generally, I think it's considered poor taste to espouse insight...kinduva "claiming to be enlightened, he can't possibly be". I'm by no stretch enlightened, but have expereinced some very cool samadhi's using this meditative approach. Kinda rocks your world when it first happens, though.

Best Regards,

Sri Bodhidavid:roflmao:


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## mj-hi-yah (Jul 30, 2004)

Kembudo-[/color said:
			
		

> Kai Kempoka]While the easy way out is to re-define mushin as a culturally-specific conceptualization of "flow", or optimal states of performance mentality, a question of equal import would be to ask 'How many Kenpoists believe in the notion of a Spiritual Self, apart from and in addition to the daily Self, that could step in and drive the car for you if your were able to get out of it's way? While in the witness-self mode associated with no-mind/spirit-mind, who do you believe is driving the bus?'


Do you think that this is something that needs to be developed or something that is already within us and we must allow it to come forth or both? I ask because I'm thinking of a story I read about a woman who lifted a car off of her child who was pinned under a wheel. This feat of strength is so amazing and while it may be a product of an adrenaline rush, I can't help but believe that she tapped into her spiritual self to summon up the strength...(I can't prove it though :lookie: :wink: ) Maybe the question is... if you don't consciously work to develop this, do you think it is still available to you by opening up to it at a given moment? 






> but have experienced some very cool samadhi's using this meditative approach


 What does the term samadhi's mean?

Thanks,
MJ :asian:


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jul 30, 2004)

I personally believe it's always there...the ability to tap in to it is refined through various activities, some meditative, some rigorous.

Lady-lift-car thing is kinduva urban legend, but works well to illustrate a point. I (and again, only my opinion) personally believe that all exceptional moments entail glimpses of spirit poking through the veil.

Samadhi = depends on who you ask. Some assert it is a "mini-enlightenment"; for others it defines a moment of transcendant bliss achieved in meditation or through flow experiences, and still others use the term to refer to supposed psychic and other supranormal powers obtained through dilligent practice of spiritual disciplines.  I tend to run with the transcendant piece, myself...a non-drug-induced glimpse into the true nature of Self as spirit, and an introduction to the "peace that transcends all understanding".

D.


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## mj-hi-yah (Jul 30, 2004)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> I personally believe it's always there...the ability to tap in to it is refined through various activities, some meditative, some rigorous.


 But...how do you know? Just kidding ... I think that is a great way to look at it! 


> Lady-lift-car thing is kinduva urban legend, but works well to illustrate a point. I (and again, only my opinion) personally believe that all exceptional moments entail glimpses of spirit poking through the veil.


Since I honestly can't remember the source, I'm sure you are right, but I did witness my mom (a very petite woman) lifting a tall, heavy dresser off of my sister when we were children and the rest of us were all like, "W_oah!"_ It was amazing!



> I tend to run with the transcendant piece, myself...a non-drug-induced glimpse into the true nature of Self as spirit, and an introduction to the "peace that transcends all understanding".


 :asian: 

MJ :asian:


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## Ceicei (Nov 22, 2005)

I did achieve it once while in an archery competition.  I remember standing there, not really thinking any of thoughts, just focused upon the target.  Everything - all distractions - were tuned out.  I felt completely calm and relaxed.  The next thing I knew, I had hit the bulls eye, and continued to do the same thing with the next five arrows, all hitting bulls eye.  It was as if I physically and mentally knew exactly what and how to do without thinking, without concentrating on the details.  Observers told me I had been very smooth in how I took the arrows out of the quiver, and drawing the bow with barely a pause.  One said that it looked like I was timing it all with my breathing.  I have never been able to duplicate that moment with archery again.  I do know that I didn't get to that point without extensive practice prior to the competition.

Now, if I can somehow duplicate that kind of focus with kenpo...

- Ceicei


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## BlackCatBonz (Nov 22, 2005)

Ceicei said:
			
		

> I did achieve it once while in an archery competition. I remember standing there, not really thinking any of thoughts, just focused upon the target. Everything - all distractions - were tuned out. I felt completely calm and relaxed. The next thing I knew, I had hit the bulls eye, and continued to do the same thing with the next five arrows, all hitting bulls eye. It was as if I physically and mentally knew exactly what and how to do without thinking, without concentrating on the details. Observers told me I had been very smooth in how I took the arrows out of the quiver, and drawing the bow with barely a pause. One said that it looked like I was timing it all with my breathing. *I have never been able to duplicate that moment with archery again.* I do know that I didn't get to that point without extensive practice prior to the competition.
> 
> Now, if I can somehow duplicate that kind of focus with kenpo...
> 
> - Ceicei


 
my question to you is.....did you try to duplicate that moment?


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## Ceicei (Nov 23, 2005)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> my question to you is.....did you try to duplicate that moment?



Other than archery?  

I am constantly working on it.  It will come when I achieve a level of confidence, mental discipline, and physical mastery.   I know I will reach that.  It does not mean I have to be the world's best, it just means putting in the necessary training to increase the frequency of "mushin".

- Ceicei


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## eyebeams (Nov 24, 2005)

Ryukai kenpo's base is in Mikkyo as well as Zen. There  is zen meditation, but many of the meditations are actually specific visualizations. The goal of this is to integrate the benefits of visualization into one's subconscious  mind instead of having to waste time thinking about them when actually acting.


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## camilyon (Oct 20, 2006)

Hey!!! Where's Doc? I wanna know what Doc thinks too!!


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## bushidomartialarts (Nov 28, 2006)

'regullarly' is pushing it, but it's a beautiful thing when it happens.

everybody can achieve it.  many of us do so watching a movie:  we're so into it that our mind and associated commentary shut up and we simply experience the moment. no future, no judgment, no past.  just the now.

that's mushin.  which is why those *&#(*$ers with their cel phones can really wreck the moment:  they bring us back into our minds.


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## fuhok (Nov 30, 2006)

I achieved the sate of on mind only once.  It was during the finals of a fencing tournament.  In the finals it was 5 touches to win a bout, best two out of thee bouts wins and you must win each encounter by two touches.  In the first bout I was loosing 4 to 0 but came back to win 6 to 4.  The second bout it was the same thing; I was loosing 4 to 0 and came back to win 6 to 4.   The matches lasted about 15 min each and I dont remember the crowd, my coach or the touches.  I just remember the last touch that sealed my first place.  It was a strange experience.


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