# Saber Form



## Seabrook (Jun 21, 2006)

Watch this video of the saber I came across, and provide some feedback. 


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HW4ZrferxFo


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## clfsean (Jun 22, 2006)

.... wow ....


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## idonnou (Jul 8, 2006)

kinda slow..otherwise is good


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## pstarr (Jul 8, 2006)

It's not a traditional form and the techniques are poorly done.  I've seen this guy before - looks like he thinks a lot of himself.  He may be the only one.


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## 7starmantis (Jul 8, 2006)

That was a guy?


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## pstarr (Jul 11, 2006)

Either that or a very homely lady....


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## HKphooey (Jul 11, 2006)

pstarr said:
			
		

> Either that or a very homely lady....


 
Dude, that's my mom!  

LOL


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## Seabrook (Jul 11, 2006)

pstarr said:
			
		

> It's not a traditional form and the techniques are poorly done.


 
He is my former kung fu instructor from 1990-1995. 

You say that the techniques were poorly done - how so? 

Also, do you have any clips of yourself? I'm not being judgemental; I just am looking for some detail in the information provided and to see WHY you think he moves poorly.

I think the form was awesome.


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## Seabrook (Jul 11, 2006)

idonnou said:
			
		

> kinda slow..otherwise is good


 
That is a heavy saber, and some moves are meant to be done with gracefulness over sheer power and speed.


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## Seabrook (Jul 11, 2006)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> That was a guy?


 
Hardly the type of comment I would expect from a MartialTalk administrator.


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## clfsean (Jul 11, 2006)

Seabrook said:
			
		

> He is my former kung fu instructor from 1990-1995.
> 
> You say that the techniques were poorly done - how so?
> 
> ...


 
The set is bogus. 

Here's a Praying Mantis set... Yan Qing Dao.
This is a teacher from Taiwan.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEMirBgcC0A

Here's another Praying Mantis set ... Moi Fa Dao. 
This is a student.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJmznS8eVv4

Here's a Jet Li clip from WAY back in the day doing Wushu Dao.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qP34fE-WLPc

Xingyi Dao.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LU0RhruNwdc


Look at how they all play the sword differently but there are certain characteristics used by all of them that are the same.


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## clfsean (Jul 11, 2006)

Seabrook said:
			
		

> That is a heavy saber, and some moves are meant to be done with gracefulness over sheer power and speed.


 
Actually with the dao, speed & power are preferred since it's a single edged weapon meant for hacking & chopping as opposed to finesse type attackes such as poking & slicing like with a gim.

If the blade is heavy enough anything could be done slowly to build strength & balance with the weapon, but the blade should do the work for you by momentum, strength, power, etc....


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## pstarr (Jul 11, 2006)

A number of the postures he perform don't exist in any other broadsword form I've ever seen - and I've seen a lot of them.  His "coil right" and return to fighting postures or making a cut is incorrect as the spine of the blade should actually touch the back of the left shoulder when the coil is executed, positioning of the free hand is out of whack in many places...

No, I don't have any clips of myself.  But I am sure if your clip was viewed by other traditional Chinese stylists who have trained extensively with the broadsword, you'll get much the same response.

I'm not trying to put him down - I'm just making some observations.


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## clfsean (Jul 11, 2006)

Sifu Starr is correct in all his observations. There are basic skills & techniques that he doesn't demonstrate or perform correctly.


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## pstarr (Jul 11, 2006)

Clfsean- the sets you provided are absolutely authentic and good examples of broadsword sets that are found in traditional systems.  Thanks!


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## Flying Crane (Jul 11, 2006)

I gotta agree.  I am no broadsword expert, but I do train the Flying Crane Broadsword from Tibetan White Crane, and the Chen Tai Chi Broadsword.  

The postures and flow of the form seemed odd for broadsword.  The Dao is the tiger: fast, ferocious, hacking and slashing with less concern for finesse.  It is also fluid and quick.  The original film just didn't seem like it had that.  It was broken up in odd ways, didn't have the flow, and used strange techniques, like a two-handed grip on the hilt.  That would be very unusual for broadsword.

I don't know enough to say with authoritiy that this is no good, but it is certainly an odd set at the least.


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## pstarr (Jul 11, 2006)

Yes, I wasn't sure that he was trying to use a two-handed grip...it sure looked like it.  The dao is a single-handed weapon and is never gripped with both hands (on the grip) as this would really foul up it's maneuverability, and maneuverability is key to effective use of this weapon.

One of the features of the Chinese broadsword is that it is whipped in very close to the body (the spine of the blade often touches the body) and then cuts out quickly and returns back close to the body as a preparation for another cut or defensive gesture.  In the film, it isn't being whipped in to the body properly-


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 11, 2006)

It can see that he put work into the form.

But the Da Dow is not a 2 handed weapon.

And I agree that the Chinese broadsword is whipped in very close to the body and the spine of the blade does touches the body on occasion, although it can be painful, so I do not recommend it... not that I would know from experience 

And I do Tai Chi sets with a very heavy bladed Da Dow and it can be hard to handle if you are not use to it. And there are some fairly fast moves in 1 on the Yang Style Da Dow forms that I do.

But I also use to do Chen style Da Dow and Shaolin with light blades and then I got my heavey blade and although it took some getting use to I like it much much better.

As for it's hacking a slashing ability... A brass water pipe in my basement paid the price.... well actually.... I did.... The plumber loved the story. And the Da Dow didn't feel a thing.

This is one of the reasons why I no longer train Shaolin.


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## 7starmantis (Jul 11, 2006)

Seabrook said:
			
		

> Hardly the type of comment I would expect from a MartialTalk administrator.


First let me address this. I'm still a member of this site and as such will post as one. I appologize if my comments offended you. In the future if your posting videos of your teachers or friends and truly want no negative feedback, you may want to mention you know them and respect them and ask for only positive posts regarding the video. I honestly couldn't really tell from the FXs on the video and all. If you feel I have broken any rules you should be all means use the RTM feature and have the staff look at the post. 

As far as the form goes, many here have commented correctly. The form is using a braodsword meant for one hand and intended for speed and cutting. If you think that sword is heavy try a two-handed broadsword. The presentation of this particular form lacked proper stances, balance, and in my opinion had absolutely no application to it. It looked like a combination of pieces of sword techniques from many systems thrown together without thought for proper body alignment, weapons alignment, balance, or application. As a presentation I will admit it has entertainment value, its obvious he has worked his flexability and such, but it doesn't look anything like true CMA to me. I'm not trying to down his skill or teaching ability, but you asked for our opinions of that video and I have given mine.

For what its worth.
7sm


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## pstarr (Jul 12, 2006)

I agree.

In viewing the video again, I noticed that he changes the weapon into his left hand for a time and then puts it back in his right hand.  In traditional dao forms this is never done.


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## Seabrook (Jul 12, 2006)

clfsean said:
			
		

> The set is bogus.
> 
> Here's a Praying Mantis set... Yan Qing Dao.
> This is a teacher from Taiwan.
> ...


 
Two things:

(1) Why did you say "wow" initially and then change your mind and state "the set is bogus"?

(2) The 2nd and 4th clip didn't impress me much, although I liked the first clip a lot and Jet Li's somehwat (3rd clip).


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## Seabrook (Jul 12, 2006)

pstarr said:
			
		

> A number of the postures he perform don't exist in any other broadsword form I've ever seen - and I've seen a lot of them. His "coil right" and return to fighting postures or making a cut is incorrect as the spine of the blade should actually touch the back of the left shoulder when the coil is executed, positioning of the free hand is out of whack in many places...


 
No worries.

Thanks! Those were interesting observations.


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## Seabrook (Jul 12, 2006)

pstarr said:
			
		

> Yes, I wasn't sure that he was trying to use a two-handed grip...it sure looked like it. The dao is a single-handed weapon and is never gripped with both hands (on the grip) as this would really foul up it's maneuverability, and maneuverability is key to effective use of this weapon.
> 
> One of the features of the Chinese broadsword is that it is whipped in very close to the body (the spine of the blade often touches the body) and then cuts out quickly and returns back close to the body as a preparation for another cut or defensive gesture. In the film, it isn't being whipped in to the body properly-


 
I know this form, and practice it a lot as well. 

These are FANTASTIC observations Sifu. I never realized that the dao should NEVER be gripped with both hands on the grip. Also, the importance of whipping the dao back close to the body after a cut makes a lot of sense. 

THANK YOU.

BTW - my primary art is American Kenpo Karate (6th Degree Black) although I still practice my kung fu a lot. What we need is a huge cross-training camp where both you and I are teaching....I would be interested in learning fundamental dao movements from you.

Here is my website:

www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## Seabrook (Jul 12, 2006)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> If you think that sword is heavy try a two-handed broadsword. The presentation of this particular form lacked proper stances, balance, and in my opinion had absolutely no application to it. It looked like a combination of pieces of sword techniques from many systems thrown together without thought for proper body alignment, weapons alignment, balance, or application. As a presentation I will admit it has entertainment value, its obvious he has worked his flexability and such, but it doesn't look anything like true CMA to me. I'm not trying to down his skill or teaching ability, but you asked for our opinions of that video and I have given mine.
> 
> For what its worth.
> 7sm


 
No worries....that was GREAT feedback and exactly what I was looking for.....SPECIFICS.


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## clfsean (Jul 12, 2006)

Seabrook said:
			
		

> Two things:
> 
> (1) Why did you say "wow" initially and then change your mind and state "the set is bogus"?


 
Because unfortunately sarcasim doesn't translate well through the net... hence the use of ellipse's (... comment ...) & I should've used smilies... my bad. 

...wow  ...



			
				Seabrook said:
			
		

> (2) The 2nd and 4th clip didn't impress me much, although I liked the first clip a lot and Jet Li's somehwat (3rd clip).


 
They weren't there to impress. They were there to show different people, different styles all doing different sets with the dao, but sharing the same basic principles for the dao.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 12, 2006)

What is the history of this set?  From what system does it come?


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## pstarr (Jul 12, 2006)

BTW - my primary art is American Kenpo Karate (6th Degree Black) although I still practice my kung fu a lot. What we need is a huge cross-training camp where both you and I are teaching....I would be interested in learning fundamental dao movements from you.


    That would be a lot of fun!  Looks like you're out on the east coast and I'm stuck in the cornfields of the Midwest, though....


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## Seabrook (Jul 13, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> What is the history of this set? From what system does it come?


 
Here is the website:

www.northernblackdragon.com


Who here knows of the Black Dragon system?


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## clfsean (Jul 13, 2006)

I rummaged through his web page the best I could. Found nothing definative about his training other than he says he teaches pieces of different styles (Hung Ga -- Tid Sin Kuen & Fu Hok, Wing Chun -- Sil Lum Tao, Praying Mantis, Louhan, etc...) & then what looks like things he created on his own.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 13, 2006)

I don't know anything about the Black Dragon System.

I did look around on the website a bit.  I'm not sure what to think, exactly.  It seems like he is trying to make the Chinese Arts into a very mystical and spiritual thing.  While I do believe the martial arts can take on a spiritual side for the individual, the way it is done on the website seems forced and overdone to me.

It's not clear exactly what he studied, and I didn't see any mention of who his teachers were.  Lineage isn't everything, and if they were people in China I probably wouldn't recognize them anyway, but usually people will list that to show some form of legitimacy.  I found it odd that it wasn't listed, or maybe I just missed it somehow.

He listed a number of sets that he teaches, many of which I am not familiar with.  That doesn't mean they are not legit, of course.  I did notice the Wing CHun sets, and I think Tiger/Crane, and some Tai Chi and Bagua but don't know anything about the rest.  I didn't see any clear listing of where the Dao form comes from.  It's hard to understand if he is teaching a complete system or systems, or bits and pieces of several.  Many of his descriptions of what he does are very vague.  Not much real, concrete explanation of what he is doing.

Here is my honest opinion and impression: This man may be a very talented martial artist and instructor.  I can't claim a high enough level of expertise to make a judgement on his skills based on a website and a few videos.  But given the presentation on the website, with all the mystical stuff and how vague the rest of it is, if this was my first introduction to this teacher, I would probably look elsewhere.

If you have trained with him and you feel the training is good, then stick with him.  You have a solid enough background in other arts that you should be able to make a judgement for yourself whether or not you feel the training is beneficial.  I just find the presentation and the material to be odd, and at least unusual.  Keep in mind: there are MANY MANY MANY different Chinese arts.  Some of them are extremely odd and unusual and might fly in the face of what we might otherwise consider to be the "standard and proper" way things are to be done.  Tong Bei (White Ape) is a good example.  When done well, it looks like a guy running around and spastically throwing his arms out in the middle of having a seizure.  Very strange, yet I can understand how it would be difficult to deal with, if you are on the receiving end of it.  I think there are many arts in China that we have never yet seen here in the West.  What this man is doing might be one of the more rare systems.  Like I said, I just find his website presentation odd, and not my cup of tea.


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## 7starmantis (Jul 13, 2006)

I trained in "a" black dragon system as a kid. It sounds alot like this one. I have no problem with systems people have developed from their training, I just want to see you use it. As of yet I have seen nothing to show me application and usable skill from watching that video. Now, I dont doubt he has skill, it just doesn't appear to be traditional CMA and thats ok. But your posting it in a CMA section of the forum where people are going to be viewing it from a CMA background. It certainly is not traditional kung fu and lacks many of the principles found in CMA. Other than that, I have no problem with it.

7sm


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## Seabrook (Jul 18, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> If you have trained with him and you feel the training is good, then stick with him.


 
I run an American Kenpo Karate school in London, Ontario and have been running the school since 1995. I am a 6th degree black belt in American Kenpo under Larry Tatum, so Kenpo is my priority. 

I haven't trained with Chau nor continued to cross-train in Kung Fu since 1995, as I left for a variety of personal reasons. I do, however, continue to practice all that I learned from Chau.

Thanks for your honesty about the website.


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## Seabrook (Jul 18, 2006)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> I trained in "a" black dragon system as a kid. It sounds alot like this one. I have no problem with systems people have developed from their training, I just want to see you use it. As of yet I have seen nothing to show me application and usable skill from watching that video. Now, I dont doubt he has skill, it just doesn't appear to be traditional CMA and thats ok. But your posting it in a CMA section of the forum where people are going to be viewing it from a CMA background. It certainly is not traditional kung fu and lacks many of the principles found in CMA. Other than that, I have no problem with it.
> 
> 7sm


 
Cool....thanks.


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