# Does your WC incorporate sweeps, trips and throws?



## geezer (Jul 15, 2014)

Over on another forum I came across a lively discussion on this topic. One faction are essentially WC minimalists and have a very narrow definition of what is WC. They discount throws along with a lot of other widely used techniques as strictly outside the domain of WC. At the other extreme are those whose WC is about as broad and inclusive as JKD. If they can make something work, they put it in their toolbox. I find myself somewhere in the middle. I try to stick closely to the principles and concepts of WC as I understand them. That means I try to preserve my structure, pursue centerline and maintain forward pressure, etc. On the other hand, if I can apply those principles and concepts in a way that smashes somebody into the ground, I'm a happy camper! 

So here's what I posted on the other forum:

_OK guys__, I'm taking a tour through whatever I can find on Youtube to address this "throwing" question. Here's the first thing that I came across, and I think I'd agree with you that the structures and principles demonstrated aren't what I consider to be Wing Chun ...at least not my Wing Chun. Just too many things that don't fit. He's abandoned his WC structure, hunching over in the clinch (OK maybe that's because his opponent is so much shorter than he is), and concocts an overly complicated movement sequence to set up the throw, turning his back to his opponent, and so forth...






Now this next one appears to start out better with the attacker slipping up the outside, pinning the defender's arm across and striking forward across the defender's throat. But then Pulling him back towards you over your lead leg in a "sacrifice throw"??? How about keeping forward intent and using a huen-bo to circle your leg around and behind your opponent's leg? Then your forward pressure, perhaps combined with a turn (if necessary) would uproot and toss your opponent to the ground without violating WC structure or principles.






The following clip of WC Sifu Wang Zhi Peng has already been discussed at length. There are some throws in here that seem (to me) to be legit expressions of WC. For example the circle-step and arm throw at 1:36-8. I've succesfully used variations of that myself and it fell into place quite naturally in a "pure" WC context. Also, the stance disruption, hooking and sweeping with the lead leg as seen in 1:40-1:48 seems to be a logical adaptation of a pretty normal WC advancing step.

On the other hand, most of what he shows, especially after the "belt-snapping" exercise at 2:00 and onwards seems to be straight up shuai chiao and not WC. Yet he melds the arts pretty effectively. So while it's not my WC, it's still pretty cool as far as Chinese martial arts go.






Anybody else find some good clips relating to WC and throwing? Put 'em up! 



Wait, wait, I'm back. I Just found another WC (WT) throw clip. These guys come from another, very different branch of the the same LT lineage I studied back in in the 80s -90s. After watching this, I'm about ready to rip the cute little red-stripes off my pants. Sheesh! Applied long pole punches, eh? After watching this, please don't tell me that I'm the only one who wants to beat the guy doing "applied battle punches" with a pole, ...or a shoe, or whatever else I can lay my hands on! I learned "battle punches" as a training exercise, not as an excuse to abandon centerline and fight like a ...bad Hung Gar stylist. Or, perhaps that was the point of the video. I can only hope.






And here's another clip of a very different WT guy working some throws, this time Sifu Yannis Simionidis. Some of the movements are pretty flashy for my taste, but others seem more down to earth, and some are just mean and nasty! Can you see Emin's influence? At 2:09-2:12, he does a circle-step trip with an arm-throw very similar to the one demonstrated by Wang Zhi Peng above. At 0:36-39 he also uses his lead leg to hook his opponent's knee, pull and trip much like Wang Sifu.​




_


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## Kwan Sau (Jul 15, 2014)

Geezer asks: "Does your WC incorporate sweeps, trips and throws?"



Yes...right tool right time right place...


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## Marnetmar (Jul 15, 2014)

I train in both Wing Chun and Northern Shaolin which does incorporate sweeps and throws. Still, I wouldn't say that my Wing Chun incorporates it but rather my training as a whole. 

So in sparring it's effectively switching between the two when the time is right. You can't really incorporate these huge throws/sweeps into _Wing Chun_ because it depends on a certain body structure in order to work properly. WC can technically sweep and throw but not with big movements like NS.


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## geezer (Jul 15, 2014)

Marnetmar said:


> ...WC can technically sweep and throw but not with big movements like NS.


 That sounds about right to me. Which means that WC sweeps, trips and throws would be much more limited in scope and application. You know, one of those things that you don't go looking for, but are ready to apply "when the stars align" ...if you get my drift. 

For what it's worth, that's the same way I view disarms in Eskrima.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 15, 2014)

When the "WC principle" violates the "throwing art principle" such as to turn your back into your opponent, which principle will you follow?


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## Vajramusti (Jul 15, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When the "WC principle" violates the "throwing art principle" such as to turn your back into your opponent, which principle will you follow?


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I do not turn my back-if I can help it. Will do my best to recover if it happens. Chum kiu or Biu jee principles will show the way.


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## geezer (Jul 15, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When the "WC principle" violates the "throwing art principle" such as to turn your back into your opponent, which principle will you follow?



Me personally? I'd follow WC because that's what I know. If I were great at throwing like you John, I'd have no problem breaking WC rules to make the throw. Whatever works.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 15, 2014)

If we don't talk about "throwing" and just talk about "locking", some "locking" do require that you expose you back toward your opponent. Do you want to stay away from those moves just because it doesn't fit to your style principle?

In the following clip, 

- you have controlled your opponent's right arm. 
- You move yourself toward his right side door. 
- His left hand can't reach you.

There is no danger to expose your back to your opponent at that moment.


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## KPM (Jul 15, 2014)

geezer said:


> That sounds about right to me. Which means that WC sweeps, trips and throws would be much more limited in scope and application. You know, one of those things that you don't go looking for, but are ready to apply "when the stars align" ...if you get my drift.
> 
> For what it's worth, that's the same way I view disarms in Eskrima.



I agree with you.  I have never really been taught effective sweeps as such as part of wing Chun. At least nothing comparable to Silat, shaoi jao or other arts that use them a lot. But I have recently studied some ssbd with maul mornie that really opened my eyes to the possibilities. His stand up game is more similar to wing Chun than any other Silat method I have seen. The he sets up and executes his sweeps and takedowns is very compatible with pin sun wing Chun. I am traveling and on my iPad now. When I get home I will post some video to show what I mean if people are interested.


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## zuti car (Jul 16, 2014)

Everything that i can do at particular moment , it is not good to restrict your self with any rules in  combat


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## drop bear (Jul 16, 2014)

I am not sure how successful you would be. 

By trying to make throws conform to a wing chun principal you are in danger of craparising the throw.

The throws that work have their own mechanics. And generally have good reasons for that.


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## mook jong man (Jul 16, 2014)

We use the elbow strike and sweep , straight out of the Biu Jee form.

The elbow strike hits the upper body at the sternum and the circle step slams into the back of the Achilles tendon , always preceded by a few punches of course.

It is in this clip 0:24 sec.

[video=youtube_share;t_y69TgpDOE]http://youtu.be/t_y69TgpDOE[/video]


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## Danny T (Jul 16, 2014)

Yes!
We do train them to 1. be able to perform them and 2. to be able to counter them. That said we don't train to attack with specific sweeps, trips and throws. If it is there and the positioning is correct then yes we do them but we don't enter with the strategy of performing them. They are a tactic we do use.
As to throwing, I'd prefer not to give my back but in the reality of fighting sometimes It Happens and within the wing chun system there are moves and techniques available to us to respond within the principles to survive. Sweeps, trips and throws are all viable IF the situation is such that they are the best move at the time.


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## geezer (Jul 16, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If we don't talk about "throwing" and just talk about "locking", some "locking" do require that you expose you back toward your opponent. Do you want to stay away from those moves just because it doesn't fit to your style principle?
> 
> In the following clip,
> 
> ...




*No*, John, I would not employ an arm-lock as shown above in my WC. It's really just a matter of objectives. WC is a striking system geared strictly to full-on self-defense. Everything we do is engineered to that end. So looking at the clip above, a WC approach continuing from the _lap-sau_ or wrist grab at 0:00 would be to _strike the jaw at 0:01_, then to close, disrupting your opponent's balance and hit him several more times by 0:02. You may finish by knocking him down and controlling him, ...or not. But the job should be done by 0:03-0:04.

By contrast, the "anaconda" lock shown above seems to have the objective of a submission and control, similar in intent to a "come-along" and would be more suited to law-enforcement or working a door. Yes it seems workable, but not especially safe or practical _in a self defense situation_ ...especially against a larger attacker. And even if you pull it off, what are you supposed to do then? Hold onto the guy while you try to find somebody to call the cops? It may be a great move, but it's designed to fit a different context.


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## Tong Chuang (Jul 16, 2014)

Sifu Ian Protheroe shows a few Wing Chun throws and takedowns
here:





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQ-Ek-RooeE&list=UUf-z3vjulMOZGJM7cQNNJKQ





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__Q_7n1yxfY&list=UUf-z3vjulMOZGJM7cQNNJKQ


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## geezer (Jul 16, 2014)

I don't know anything about Ian Protheroe but the circle-step throws in the first clip are all familiar and seem straight up WC to me. The chin-na in the second clip is not part of WC as I learned it, primarily because he does not maintain _forward pressure_ as he applies the locks. But it is blended nicely with his WC and looks functional. Good clips!


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## futsaowingchun (Jul 16, 2014)

My short answer is yes.


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## geezer (Jul 17, 2014)

futsaowingchun said:


> My short answer is yes.



What's your longer answer?


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## futsaowingchun (Jul 17, 2014)

geezer said:


> What's your longer answer?



in the Fut Sao lineage besides punching and kicking,there is also take downs,locks,wrestling or grappling,sweeps,and some throws. I personally don't like throws to much so I don't train them to much..there is also quite a bit of ground fighting I learnt also.


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## Vajramusti (Jul 18, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When the "WC principle" violates the "throwing art principle" such as to turn your back into your opponent, which principle will you follow?



--------------------------------------------------------------------
I do wing chun. I don't have to turn my back to throw someone . Lot more striking in wing chun than throwing
but in close body work if the alignment for a strike isn't there but the throwing opportunity is there with a chum kiu or biu jee motion
I can take it.


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## Danny T (Jul 18, 2014)

Vajramusti said:


> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> I do wing chun. I don't have to turn my back to throw someone . Lot more striking in wing chun than throwing
> but in close body work if the alignment for a strike isn't there but the throwing opportunity is there with a chum kiu or biu jee motion
> I can take it.



In agreement. However, "IF" within the dynamics of movement, the opponent happen to be at my back within biu jee a throw is available. It is not something I want to do, it is not something I would go looking for but "IF" it were there I would use a throw or a takedown with my back to the opponent.


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## Vajramusti (Jul 18, 2014)

Danny T said:


> In agreement. However, "IF" within the dynamics of movement, the opponent happen to be at my back within biu jee a throw is available. It is not something I want to do, it is not something I would go looking for but "IF" it were there I would use a throw or a takedown with my back to the opponent.


-------------------------------

yup


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## VT_Vectis (Jul 26, 2014)

Due to his time Taiwanese Army/Special Forces, Sifu Lo Man Kam's teachings involve a lot of throws , takedowns,and sweeps derived from chin na and possibly judo in his VT, from what I gather from the net and WC illustrated magazine, not had the opportunity to see it for myself but would like to study it when I head to New Zealand to compare with WSL method.

Any one have first hand experience?


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