# Mc Dojo



## ARNIS PRINCESS (Jun 19, 2004)

What do people consider a McDojo?


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## Spud (Jun 19, 2004)

Start with the search function and look for mcdojo in the title. 

Many threads on this with different interpretations.


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## MJS (Jun 19, 2004)

ARNIS PRINCESS said:
			
		

> What do people consider a McDojo?



1- A place where you can go and the instructor is more interested in taking your money instead of the knowledge he can give you.

2- A belt factory.

3- A school that has 10 yr. olds wearing a 2nd degree black belt.

4-A school that offers the chance to have students open other branches of the school.. The only problem is that when its offered to a guy whos a green belt, but after he goes through the " Instructor Certification Course" he, overnight, becomes a black belt.

5- A place where you can go and you get your black belt in less than a year.

I'm sure that there are more, but those are the only ones that came to mind at the time.

Mike


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## Spud (Jun 19, 2004)

Good Summary MJS


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## tshadowchaser (Jun 19, 2004)

Green belts poseing as black belts and selling rank every 2 months is a verry good discription of a McDojo.  
Instructors like those above that can not give you their history and the history of their art is also a good indication But not always (there are always exceptions).
 I am also carefull of schools that teach Bjj, tkd, shotokan, kung fu, tai chi, and arobics, etc., etc., all under the same roof. Yes, some may be ligit, but many are of the quality  and knowledge as the first mentioned.


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## hedgehogey (Jun 19, 2004)

www.bullshido.net is dedicated to rooting out mcdojos


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## dubljay (Jun 19, 2004)

hedgehogey said:
			
		

> www.bullshido.net is dedicated to rooting out mcdojos


 



Right on.... there should be more of these organizations.


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## auxprix (Jun 19, 2004)

It's like profanity. I can't define it but I know it when I see it. They tend to have certain things in common.
1) They are more concerned with business and customer service than the art.
If your master doesn't yell at you every once and a while, you may be in a McDojo. Notice that I said MAY, there are nice instructors out there. What i mean to say by this is that often instructors of McDojos are content with you practicing bad technique as opposed to possibly offending you and loosing your business.
2) They are a part of a large conglomerate.
Not always the case, but if your studio is part of a network of many studios within the nation, it MAY be a McDojo.
3) There is alot of emphasis on promotion, but the place of practice doesn't respect its power to award new belts.
I know too many "karate blackbelts" who have no buisiness being a blackbelt. They kept getting promoted on a basis of the time they've put in, not what they've really learned. I hear that some/many dojos charge for promotions. I personally haven't been to one that does, so I don't know how many partake in this. If your studio has alot of pretty colored belts that they make you buy every few months, you may be in a  McDojo.

Disclamer: If your studio does any of these, I don't mean to say that it is a McDojo. I am trying to say that this seems to be a trend among what I consider to be a Dojo that is more interested in making money than preserving the art.

I'm going to add a question to this forum. Has anyone ever practiced at a place that THEY would call a McDojo? If so, please tell us a bit about your experience.


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## dubljay (Jun 19, 2004)

auxprix said:
			
		

> I'm going to add a question to this forum. Has anyone ever practiced at a place that THEY would call a McDojo? If so, please tell us a bit about your experience.


I haven't practiced at one... I showed up to see what it was all about  didnt like it... very hokey and unporfessional and left after only 5 mins.


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## loki09789 (Jun 20, 2004)

tshadowchaser said:
			
		

> Green belts poseing as black belts and selling rank every 2 months is a verry good discription of a McDojo.
> Instructors like those above that can not give you their history and the history of their art is also a good indication But not always (there are always exceptions).
> I am also carefull of schools that teach Bjj, tkd, shotokan, kung fu, tai chi, and arobics, etc., etc., all under the same roof. Yes, some may be ligit, but many are of the quality and knowledge as the first mentioned.


Definitely.  When there is a 'one stop shopping' impression on the window list of arts but there is only one or two instructors it makes the experienced scratch their heads.  I met a guy who was a 'mcdojoist' with one only one student and using a college rec room. I asked him what he style he taught and he said "all styles".  At that point I had to walk away.

THe other problem is the lack of cultural/stylistic respect.  I know that terms like Karate/Kung Fu and in some areas Kenpo are common usage terms in the general public but it is better (though not cheaper on the sign costs) to either use the style/system name or "Martial Arts."  It is better presentation/citation/accuracy and it reduces the "well, we really do this that or the other, but we call it Karate/KungFu/Kenpo because that is what the public knows... people know what 'Martial Arts' means too.


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## RHD (Jun 20, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> I know that terms like Karate/Kung Fu and in some areas Kenpo are common usage terms in the general public but it is better (though not cheaper on the sign costs) to either use the style/system name or "Martial Arts."  It is better presentation/citation/accuracy and it reduces the "well, we really do this that or the other, but we call it Karate/KungFu/Kenpo because that is what the public knows... people know what 'Martial Arts' means too.



I think calling your art by any name other than what it is, is shady.  In my town, there is at least one TKD school that has Tae Kwon Do, HapKiDo, and Kung Fu on thier sign out front.  Funny thing is they only teach Tae Kwon Do.  This is misleading and bad business.  Better to simply list your school as "martial arts", and then get into stylistic names inside the training hall.

Mike


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## tshadowchaser (Jun 20, 2004)

If the instructor belongs to 4 or 5 organisations and gives rank to the heads of those organisations and they inturn rank him with in their systems you may be in a McDojo


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## ARNIS PRINCESS (Jun 20, 2004)

Why was my thread moved? I wanted to know what the FMAers consider a Mc Dojo. :disgust:


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## Flatlander (Jun 20, 2004)

ARNIS PRINCESS said:
			
		

> Why was my thread moved? I wanted to know what the FMAers consider a Mc Dojo. :disgust:


Why would FMAers have, on the average, any differring opinion of what constitutes a McDojo than any other MAist?


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## ARNIS PRINCESS (Jun 20, 2004)

flatlander said:
			
		

> Why would FMAers have, on the average, any differring opinion of what constitutes a McDojo than any other MAist?




Everyone has their own interpretation of what a McDojo is and seeing that the FMAers were using it in the spreading the art thread, under the FMA forum, I wondered what their interpretation was?  Putting it in the general forum takes it away from the group of people I was asking. Personally, I only look at a couple of the forums and the only reason that I noticed that it was moved was because someone replied to my post and it wasn't where I originally posted it.


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## kenpo tiger (Jun 20, 2004)

Hi Arnis Princess.  I didn't realize the original post was in our forum, but I guess one of the moderators felt it needed to be 'out there' for the guys, too.  I think that the interpretations offered by a lot of them are true.  My first two schools fell into some or all of the categories, and that's why I found myself at a high rank in each place and feeling like I couldn't 'strut my stuff' if I had to - for whatever reason.  In both places I attained my rank by time in, not really by knowledge of the material, although I worked hard and wanted to be a good martial artist.  I've posted elsewhere about one of the schools where you bought a belt and where I witnessed a so-called black belt test where half of the participants couldn't do many of their forms.  If it's just about the belt and the status of being able to say you're a black belt, then I guess you can go anywhere you can afford to pay for one.  I used to be excited that I was moving along so quickly and effortlessly.  Then I discovered why.  KT


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## Cryozombie (Jun 20, 2004)

ARNIS PRINCESS said:
			
		

> Why was my thread moved? I wanted to know what the FMAers consider a Mc Dojo. :disgust:



D@mn those evil Mods.


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## terryl965 (Jun 20, 2004)

auxprix said:
			
		

> It's like profanity. I can't define it but I know it when I see it. They tend to have certain things in common.
> 1) They are more concerned with business and customer service than the art.
> If your master doesn't yell at you every once and a while, you may be in a McDojo. Notice that I said MAY, there are nice instructors out there. What i mean to say by this is that often instructors of McDojos are content with you practicing bad technique as opposed to possibly offending you and loosing your business.
> 2) They are a part of a large conglomerate.
> ...


I have once joined to get additional training for my son's, I heard  the instructor was a good student of the Art (Sport side for my boy's) after the first month it was I have a black belt program that will take your son's all the way to black belt, what he did not relize that I was already one, anyway he goes on to say it will be $3000.00 dollars per child I have three, plus the regular $225.00 per month and as a added bonus he would teach them grappling and jujitsu plus weapons. Now mind you we joined for my boy's to get additional training in the sport of Tae Kwon Do not all of this stuff anyway after I said no he said well your boy's are not good enough for the sport circut, anyway we see them from tournament to tournament and my sons just keeps on winning while his students look well you guy's know not to impressive in the judges eye's...That is my experience with a Mcdojo, money motivated looking for the people that don't know any better and pance on them for all they can get out of them false promises....God Bless America


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## TKD USA (Jun 20, 2004)

Wow. Very cool story!


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## Flatlander (Jun 20, 2004)

terryl965 said:
			
		

> I have once joined to get additional training for my son's, I heard the instructor was a good student of the Art (Sport side for my boy's) after the first month it was I have a black belt program that will take your son's all the way to black belt, what he did not relize that I was already one, anyway he goes on to say it will be $3000.00 dollars per child I have three, plus the regular $225.00 per month and as a added bonus he would teach them grappling and jujitsu plus weapons. Now mind you we joined for my boy's to get additional training in the sport of Tae Kwon Do not all of this stuff anyway after I said no he said well your boy's are not good enough for the sport circut, anyway we see them from tournament to tournament and my sons just keeps on winning while his students look well you guy's know not to impressive in the judges eye's...That is my experience with a Mcdojo, money motivated looking for the people that don't know any better and pance on them for all they can get out of them false promises....God Bless America


This must be McDojoism in it's extreme.  Wow.  There should be some governing body which can shut these places down.


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## Nightingale (Jun 21, 2004)

Links can get moved out of art specific forums into the general forum if they apply to multiple arts, to give the thread more exposure and to allow others to respond.  McDojo is a pretty universal term for a belt-factory.


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## DoxN4cer (Jun 21, 2004)

ARNIS PRINCESS said:
			
		

> What do people consider a McDojo?



A lot of bun and no meat.


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## OULobo (Jun 21, 2004)

DoxN4cer said:
			
		

> A lot of bun and no meat.


I like that one.  :rofl:


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## MichiganTKD (Jun 21, 2004)

What constitutes a McDojo/McDojang?

1. Schools that emphasize style over substance. When students are competing with each other and the Instructor for the flashiest uniform and prettiest belt. Uniforms are pretty utilitarian. They don't have to be fancy and won't make you a better student if they are. If you suck, a red satin uniform won't change that.

2. Schools that emphasize money over integrity. The Instructor is not there to get you to buy everything he has to sell. Granted, some gear is nice to have, but the class should not be about having to buy things. And anything you do buy should be worth the money.

3. An Instructor with clearly defined credentials and history. Any legitimate Instructor should be able to tell you exactly where he came from, where he studied, who his Instructor is, whether he still practices with that Instructor, and what Organization he belongs to. If an Instructor cannot clearly state any of these and cannot or will not provide proper documentation and certification, run. Run fast.

4. Granted, a new student won't be able to pick out nuances in technique. But if the technique just plain looks bad, it means the Instructor and his assistants are not taking the time to develop their students. Either through carelessness or because they suck themselves.

5. Beware of schools that try to be all things to all people (Joe Kim's Tae Kwon Do/Hapkido/BJJ/Choi Kwang Do/Karate School.). Tae Kwon Do, Hapkido, Karate, and the others are separate arts, with separate programs.


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## mj-hi-yah (Jun 21, 2004)

Hi Arnis Princess,


To me the McDojo has questionable business practices and the focus is on collecting the fee.  Here are two examples:

...My niece attends a Ju Jitsu McDojo where the business practices are questionable in my opinion.  I attended her brown belt test (she was 16 at the time), but before the adults and teens tested the children tested and the head instructor spent *20 minutes* lecturing the children and their parents about things associated with making payments, and it was to me _*very inappropriate*,_ especially since he said little else.  Also when she would miss a few weeks of class _the instructor would have_ _one of_ _his black belts make a* high pressure* call to her_ _to try and convince her to return to class._  This to me again was inappropriate.  *Adults should not be calling children.*  It is the parents who must sign the contracts and are responsible if a call is to be made at all it should be to the parent.  If my sister, or another parent missed a payment the head instructor or another high ranking black belt would announce it to my niece in class, or to any other child whose parents missed payments.  They also push the high priced video tapes that they make themselves as part of their curriculum, and their lobby is set up to be all about the marketing of goods.  My sister complains about it to me all the time, but my niece is happy learning with her friends so they continue to put up with it all.  My sister wishes that she had investigated more before allowing her daughter to get involved at this particular school.  

Another example came to me from one of my training partners.  He attended a school where his instructor was all about money.  The instructor handed him his green belt for 25 dollars without any type of evaluation or discussion of his skills or anything.  It made him feel that he didn't really earn the belt.  He told me he felt it was just about the money and he was very uncomfortable with the whole thing.

MJ:asian:


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## kenpo tiger (Jun 21, 2004)

You also should ask the instructor who is is CURRENTLY training with.  I had a tkd instructor who had separated from YH Park, with whom he had trained his entire ma career, and he did not have another instructor after that.  It made it difficult for the advanced students after a while because he was great teaching the beginners, but once we all started getting up to black, he was 'rusty'.  Nice enough guy but not the teacher for me.  Revolving door at that dojang - adults as well as kids.  He's too focused on his kickboxing side business, which he teaches.  It makes more $$ for him than the tkd.


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## MichiganTKD (Jun 21, 2004)

Very good point.

Tae Kwon Do and other arts are full of people who have broken away from their Instructor or no longer are under him, for whatever reason (generally because they were kicked out or a money issue). Since they no longer have a primary Instructor, they no longer are really learning the higher stages of their art. They can teach basics, but are unable to produce higher black belts, since they themselves don't know higher material. So they state it takes 10 years to black belt, or make up their own technique and call it a new style.
And Koreans are just as guilty as Americans.


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## kenpo tiger (Jun 21, 2004)

It IS a shame.


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## Kenpo Mama (Jun 21, 2004)

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> What constitutes a McDojo/McDojang?
> 
> 1. Schools that emphasize style over substance. When students are competing with each other and the Instructor for the flashiest uniform and prettiest belt. Uniforms are pretty utilitarian. They don't have to be fancy and won't make you a better student if they are. If you suck, a red satin uniform won't change that.
> 
> ...



This is truly a comprehensive list of the McDojo menu!  Thank you, oh can i have some nunchukus to go with that ?????




> It IS a shame.



Yes Kenpo Tiger it truly is!

Donna   :wink2:


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## MichiganTKD (Jun 21, 2004)

Another sign: Any Tae Kwon Do school that advertizes itself as "Kim's Karate" but teaches TKD. You mean in this day and age people don't know what Tae Kwon Do is? If you teach Tae Kwon Do (or Kempo or Karate or Kung Fu) advertize it as such. What are you ashamed of? Most people probably wouldn't know Chung Do Kwan from Moo Duk Kwan, but they know Tae Kwon Do.
Also, Instructors who are a little too eager to have newspaper, radio, TV, and/or magazine ads. The best advertizing is word of mouth, because people won't recommend bad schools to their friends and coworkers. All the advertising in the world won't help you if your school is not good. People will figure it out.


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## mj-hi-yah (Jun 21, 2004)

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> Also, Instructors who are a little too eager to have newspaper, radio, TV, and/or magazine ads. The best advertizing is word of mouth, because people won't recommend bad schools to their friends and coworkers. All the advertising in the world won't help you if your school is not good. People will figure it out.


That's a great point!  My instructor does not advertise at all.  He really only goes by word of mouth.


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## pete (Jun 22, 2004)

> Thank you, oh can i have some nunchukus to go with that ????? - Kenpo Mama


 :boing2: 

i'll have mine with extra chi...

all laughs aside, advertising is not necessarily a bad thing. after all, we're not communists...


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Jun 22, 2004)

mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> That's a great point!  My instructor does not advertise at all.  He really only goes by word of mouth.



Word of mouth is a good tool, BUT you can't rely on it alone. I own a school and I have bills to pay. If I relied on word of mouth only my school wouldn't be open.

 :asian:


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## kenpo tiger (Jun 22, 2004)

MJ, Pete and I train together.  Our instructor does not advertise and doesn't really need to.  The people in our dojo are great - across the board, no exceptions.  It's a very family-oriented place.  I know all the parents of my students because both bring their chid(ren) to class, either together or alternate weeks - and, in some instances, I know aunts, uncles, and grandparents.  Not many schools can claim that.


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## auxprix (Jun 22, 2004)

I think we should make a distinction between advertisement and excessive advertisement. Certainly, there is nothing wrong with doing a little promotion for your school. My Dojo does not really advertise in the traditional sense, but it doesn't shy away from being featured on a local TV news report or promoting its tournement within the martial arts comunity. Advertising can be important, especially if your art is not well known. It's hard enough to get new adults to feel confident enough to walk through the door.

The other side of this is the over advertiser. Schools that have ads in every publication dealing with martial arts. They use phrases like "Proven street effective" and make claims that other systems are useless for self defense. When I was looking for a new Dojo (I am a Judoka) I went to check out a BJJ place because it was more conveniently located. This was a school that does a good deal of advertising, and it is a part of a network of studios around the area. When I went in, I was given a cheap pamphlet outlining why BJJ is better than other systems. This sort of thing always sickens me. I know that it was produced by the management of this company, because the practitioners and the Master were all very nice (they even recommended I check out the Judo Dojo that I am currently a member at). What I'm getting at is  that advertisement is not a bad thing, but you should not disrespect other systems to bring in new members under the premise that your art is better.


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Jun 22, 2004)

auxprix said:
			
		

> I think we should make a distinction between advertisement and excessive advertisement. Certainly, there is nothing wrong with doing a little promotion for your school. My Dojo does not really advertise in the traditional sense, but it doesn't shy away from being featured on a local TV news report or promoting its tournement within the martial arts comunity. Advertising can be important, especially if your art is not well known. It's hard enough to get new adults to feel confident enough to walk through the door.
> 
> The other side of this is the over advertiser. Schools that have ads in every publication dealing with martial arts. They use phrases like "Proven street effective" and make claims that other systems are useless for self defense. When I was looking for a new Dojo (I am a Judoka) I went to check out a BJJ place because it was more conveniently located. This was a school that does a good deal of advertising, and it is a part of a network of studios around the area. When I went in, I was given a cheap pamphlet outlining why BJJ is better than other systems. This sort of thing always sickens me. I know that it was produced by the management of this company, because the practitioners and the Master were all very nice (they even recommended I check out the Judo Dojo that I am currently a member at). What I'm getting at is  that advertisement is not a bad thing, but you should not disrespect other systems to bring in new members under the premise that your art is better.



Agreed.  :asian:


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## pete (Jun 22, 2004)

kenpo tiger said:
			
		

> Our instructor does not advertise and doesn't really need to.



that's his choice~


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## Flatlander (Jun 22, 2004)

The entire question of whether or not to advertise can't be taken as an absolute in its reflection of potential Mcdojoism.  Market conditions will be a mitigating factor as well.  

Some instructors have time to run multiple classes, some do not.  Some instructors have a lot of usable space, others do not.  Let's assume we have an instructor who has all the time in the world, and a huge space.  Why not make use of it? 

Now what market are we in?  If we're talking about a city of one million or more, word of mouth would take a long time to reach all the potential students out there,  and I would posit longer in larger centers.

If you're in a town of 500, advertising probably isn't necessary at all.

What about seminars?  I think those NEED to be advertised.  That's the whole point.  Have a seminar every now and then, get as many people together as you can to train - current students and new ones to whom you can expose the art.  It just doesn't work without advertising.

If you already, as one qualified to teach, have a full time job, family, etc., presumably this leaves less instruction time, and so we're talking less people capacity.  Do you need to advertise? Probably not.

I think that the possible variations of circumstances wherein advertising comes into play makes the issue of advertising/not advertising a poor metric upon which to judge a dojo.  What do they advertise?  That's a different story.....


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## kenpo tiger (Jun 22, 2004)

flatlander said:
			
		

> .
> 
> I think that the possible variations of circumstances wherein advertising comes into play makes the issue of advertising/not advertising a poor metric upon which to judge a dojo. What do they advertise? That's a different story.....


I agree.  As has been stated (at great length elsewhere), the McDojos of this world promise everything and delivery falls short of the promises in many cases.  

My former tkd instructor has always advertised and always has lots of people come to see what it's about.  I suppose that's the good part of advertising - getting interest going for your school.

My current instructor - as Pete pointed out - chooses not to advertise.  We still don't know why.


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## loki09789 (Jun 22, 2004)

kenpo tiger said:
			
		

> I agree. As has been stated (at great length elsewhere), the McDojos of this world promise everything and delivery falls short of the promises in many cases.
> 
> My former tkd instructor has always advertised and always has lots of people come to see what it's about. I suppose that's the good part of advertising - getting interest going for your school.
> 
> My current instructor - as Pete pointed out - chooses not to advertise. We still don't know why.


If nearly every conversation turns into a testimonial/verbal promotion of your school/system/organization it is McDojo advertising.  If every conversation finishes with an invite in the tone of "once you've gone X, no other school will compare"

If the paper/media ads push the fitness angle, yet the only sweating is in 10 mins or less of warm ups and stretching and a sparring class availabe one day a week AND there are no strength/conditioning elements to the regular work out it is McDojo advertising. Sort of like the false claims about what arts are taught, McDojo advertising is false promises of what to expect from the training.


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## mj-hi-yah (Jun 23, 2004)

kenpo tiger said:
			
		

> My current instructor - as Pete pointed out - chooses not to advertise. We still don't know why.


 I've spoken to him on several occasions on this matter.  The reason he chooses this is because he wants his school to be word of mouth.  It's personal choice - he is very happy with his current clientele.  It's a small community and the people in the school are very close, and the school is very family oriented.  Word of mouth works for him.  Money is definitely not a top priority with him.  He is interested for himself and others in quality not quantity, and that's not to say that large schools can't offer quality of instruction.  As long as he can pay his bills that's a choice he can afford to make.  I don't think there is anything wrong with a school owner advertising. People who are interested will come because they want to, not because an add made them, but the add gives them the opportunity to know what is available.  There is nothing wrong in my opinion with school owners taking out adds, but I agree with Flatlander as a potential student you should look at _WHAT _is being advertised before making a decision.  

I think a Mc Dojo is a place where you will find that the emphasis is not quite on quality of instruction.


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## OC Kid (Jun 25, 2004)

Is this considered a McDojo...What do you all think.

www.fullcontactmartialarts.com


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## Cruentus (Jun 25, 2004)

What's wrong with McDojo's?

Signed,
Ronald McDonald


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## Flatlander (Jun 25, 2004)

OC Kid said:
			
		

> Is this considered a McDojo...What do you all think.
> 
> www.fullcontactmartialarts.com


I think so - looks like a franchising sort of situation, freestyling sucked, the 'master' did a staff form with crappy footwork, and bad techniques.  I say McDojo.


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## OC Kid (Jun 25, 2004)

Yea I know the video clip of the guy sparring kinda sent me the signal. I asked my boy who I am training what he thought. How he would fight that guy and He said "simple daddy Id blitz him" BTW Hes 10 and 9th Kyu... so there ya go. But Its a great presentation with the exclusive dojo for serious students routine. I loved that. Good idea if it were true.


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## deadhand31 (Jun 29, 2004)

I've got a good example of a McDojo. A guy broke away from our TKD school, and started his own not more than 200 feet from my school. I know that he tends to do mainly "light contact point sparring". This guy has also been telling his students that he taught my instructor, which is total fallacy. From hearing other people's experiences with their school, students from this school tend to trash talk our school alot. They also have "Kick butt!" embossed on their door. Whenever somebody walks in the door, he tries to sign them up right away (this put off someone who came right to our school instead). Due to an inability to keep people interested, he offers 3 months half price with a 6 month contract. Sound McDojangish?


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## sifu nick (Aug 11, 2004)

Be wary of those knowing "secret" or "magic" techniques. Also those who have claims of training only in shaolin temples and various other far away places with absolutely no way of backing it up. There is also large chain of schools out there which I will not name but know of as definite mcdojo's.


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## Mark Weiser (Aug 11, 2004)

At my school I teach at a local community center. Topeka Parks and Recreation charge a fee of $20 for 4 hours of classes equals to $5 per hour per student. I do not get any funds since I volunteer my services.  The only $ I make is thru products


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## matt.m (May 23, 2006)

Wow, you know I have seen schools in St. Louis that say the following: We will have you sign a three year contract, you will have an eft of 36 payments of 100.00.  Ok so far I suppose, however everyone I have met going to TKD class under this scenario is already a second dan at the end of the third year.  

I was doing Tae Guek Sam Jang with a black belt from one of these types of schools, they didn't know it from a hill of beans.


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## Hapkidoguy (Feb 26, 2013)

Maybe this should be a different thread . If McDojos Have Black Belts that are too young. What age is too young? Just a question.


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## clfsean (Feb 26, 2013)

Hapkidoguy said:


> Maybe this should be a different thread . If McDojos Have Black Belts that are too young. What age is too young? Just a question.



IMNSHO ... 16 at a minimum. I don't care what little Johnny or Janie's mom paid... period.


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## Instructor (Feb 26, 2013)

Yeah I think our youngest was 17...  a very very mature 17.  1st Dan.  To us that's still kind of early in your training.


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## Hapkidoguy (Feb 26, 2013)

Some martial arts start at a very early age. Still just a question. Reallistically it should take someone 10 years to get a black belt ?


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## Instructor (Feb 26, 2013)

Not really but sometimes it takes people ten years to grow up.


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## Hapkidoguy (Feb 26, 2013)

i would agree with that . But if we are honest we all know 1st Dan is truly the beginning of our training. At least thats what we tell people. So how do you stop having young black Belts. Do you stop teaching children?


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## Kong Soo Do (Feb 26, 2013)

Hapkidoguy said:


> Maybe this should be a different thread . If McDojos Have Black Belts that are too young. What age is too young? Just a question.



Our association has been discussing this very question recently.  It looks like a minimum age of 16 is going to be the number.  And that is a minimum!  Lot of spirited debate back and forth about it though.  Gotta be honest, 4 year old black belts just don't impress me.  I'm sure its making some people a lot of money though :uhohh:

There is an old Aikido school near me where it takes about 10 years of constant training to earn a BB.  And you wear white till you earn a black.  Maybe I'm old fashioned...but I kinda like that.


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## Steve (Feb 26, 2013)

Hapkidoguy said:


> Some martial arts start at a very early age. Still just a question. Reallistically it should take someone 10 years to get a black belt ?



since this is in the general martial arts section, I'll say that IMO, it depends on the conventions of the style and the culture of the school. In BJJ, 10 years isn't unrealistic for black belt.  A 1st degree black belt in BJJ isn't the same as a 1st dan in TKD.  Nor does it need to be.


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## Hapkidoguy (Feb 26, 2013)

I see your point. I was in an organization that had younger Black Belts in TKD . Around 12 years old. Most had been there for 6 years or so. I dont know how I feel about it. Sometimes i didnt like it other times i didnt have a problem with it. Im still trying to decide on the issue. If we are basing it on someones ability to do required forms then some 12 year olds are good. But idk if they understand the responsability. However some adults dont either. In my Hapkido school you had to be 16 to even train so that eliminated it there.
Just some thoughts


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## Hapkidoguy (Feb 26, 2013)

Steve said:


> since this is in the general martial arts section, I'll say that IMO, it depends on the conventions of the style and the culture of the school. In BJJ, 10 years isn't unrealistic for black belt.  A 1st degree black belt in BJJ isn't the same as a 1st dan in TKD.  Nor does it need to be.



i have a friend who is in JJ and is still a purple belt after 10 years. He doesnt feel he is ready to go any higher. I received my TKD Black Belt In 2 years. I dont know if that is realistic or not. I would like to believe that I am good at what I do but Im not wanting to be arogant either. It took me about 2 Years for my HKD Black as well.


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## Steve (Feb 26, 2013)

My personal opinion is that it's nothing to do with the color of the belt and everything to do with being transparent and acting with integrity.

I don't have any problem with a martial arts school that says, "For $100 per month, I will give your young child some realistic goals, teach him to act with respect and courtesy, run him until he's tired and give him some opportunities to compete.  I will reward his good behavior with monthly promotions along a 24 belt color scale and if he's diligent, he could earn his black belt within a few years."

I have REAL problems with, "If your son trains here and earns a black belt, he will be a lethal weapon, and would have no problem defending himself from harm."

In other words, I don't care what language is used, as long as the parents are being told in realistic terms what their child is *and isn't *learning, it's not a problem for me.  And as far as I'm concerned, children can, at best, learn some anti-bullying behaviors and tactics, along with some sensible strategies for staying safe and avoiding danger.  Anything beyond that is dangerous, IMO.


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## Steve (Feb 26, 2013)

Hapkidoguy said:


> i have a friend who is in JJ and is still a purple belt after 10 years. He doesnt feel he is ready to go any higher. I received my TKD Black Belt In 2 years. I dont know if that is realistic or not. I would like to believe that I am good at what I do but Im not wanting to be arogant either. It took me about 2 Years for my HKD Black as well.


I've been training for seven years and am a purple belt. I know guys who started within months of me who are now black belts. I'm not at all worried about it, and with one exception, I have no doubts that their promotions were well deserved.  I wouldn't want a black belt I wasn't qualified to receive.  I would rather wear the purple belt I've earned then a black belt I was given.


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## ballen0351 (Feb 26, 2013)

We have junior black belts but once you turn 17 and move to adult classes you start back at 5th kyu in the adult belt system.  We have different belts for different age groups 6 to 8. 9 to 11 12 to 14 and 15 to 17.  You can top out as a "black belt".  At each belt lvl but when you move up you drop back in rank.  Its not a money thing either we don't charge for belt testings.  You do pay 4 bucks for your new belt that's it.


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## GaryR (Feb 26, 2013)

You are very likely in a Mcdojo if

-the blackbelts cannot fight.

-they have no or little application training. 

-the teacher can't fight

-people pay for belt testing (especially if they have many levels)

-Billy Blanks DVD's are running in the background

-Contracts are mandatory not optional

-The teacher claims to have secret techniques he will not show you before you sign up or reach a certain "level"

-The teacher rarely teaches, and lets the senior students run things

-they are franchised

-the teacher claims to be to deadly to go hands on with the students


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## TheArtofDave (Feb 27, 2013)

Actually it would be nice to add "ineffective" fighting. Or even questionable fighting would be even better. Just because you're receiving instruction doesn't mean its the best instruction. Any instruction you take you need to make sure its not misidentified. Make sure your instructor doesn't misidentify themselves. Because that will hurt the instruction, your reputation, and also the instruction's reputation.

You're a McDojo if you run a questionable practice. Do not conduct yourself in a respectful manner. Hand out belts just to hand them out. Progression is rather simple and you do not get anything out of it. Fitness is important. But if you have to damage your reputation, and your business reputation as well as those around you who put faith into you then you definitely qualify as a mcdojo.

Teaching takes dedication and patience. Takes time to find your fit. However need to make sure you're not in a paper mill, nor are you wasting your time.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 27, 2013)

Back in the old days....when Dinosaurs walked the earth and fought in the ring, when Enter the Dragon was a new movie and Chuck Norris was a fighter...not an actor.... you could not get or even test for a black belt in Japanese Jiujitsu unless you were 18. You did not get to take every test that came up just because you were there so many months or weeks you could only test if the sensei said you were ready to test. There was no need for additional seminars or going to train other places.

Now if I use those as my standards then just about everything else out there today is a McDojos&#8230;. with a few exceptions

But I won&#8217;t because that would be silly, almost as silly as the copious threads on MT right now that are all about discussing McDojos.... 


In some cases it is legitimate but in others it is just another form of style bashing. There is an old thread out there, by steve actually, that if I can find it I will link it and I think it covers all of this very nicely...but be warned...you will need to have a since of humor...because if you don't have one you may be offended due to its lack of seriousness on the topic


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 27, 2013)

Well that was much easier to find than I thought it would be







 Warning, if you have a sense of humor click the link&#8230;if you don&#8217;t&#8230;you have been warned 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





I don't like your martial arts style...


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## jasonbrinn (Feb 27, 2013)

Sorry but I don't have the time now to read this entire thread but I do feel compelled to respond right now.  If I restate something I apologize.

I HATE the term McDojo.  It is not a "real" term.  McDojo comes most popularly from Bullshido which was originally called McDojo.com (it first showed up on the ADCC forum and the UG if any of you know what I am talking about).  The term per their definition represents a school where there are long term contracts, belt testing fees, required uniforms you have to pay for, high priced lessons, etc.  The HILARIOUS thing about all that is that Bullshido greatly advocates BJJ which for the most part is represented by the highest priced schools in the market, contracts, requirements to buy certain uniforms and even....wait for it....testing fees.

No one can say that anyone is teaching "bad" martial arts since their is no universally agreed "good" martial art curriculum.  McDojo is a term of hurt and ignorance and leads to nothing but confusion, chest pounding and general puffery - 
IMO.

The day you open a commercial location to teach you have to consider making money, unless you personally finance it out of your kind heart.  Without commercial martial arts the martial arts would not be where it is today and would likely go underground with most of us having no where to train.

In love,

Jason Brinn


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## WaterGal (Feb 27, 2013)

Hapkidoguy said:


> I see your point. I was in an organization that had younger Black Belts in TKD . Around 12 years old. Most had been there for 6 years or so. I dont know how I feel about it. Sometimes i didnt like it other times i didnt have a problem with it. Im still trying to decide on the issue. If we are basing it on someones ability to do required forms then some 12 year olds are good. But idk if they understand the responsability. However some adults dont either. In my Hapkido school you had to be 16 to even train so that eliminated it there.
> Just some thoughts



TKD, at least Kukkiwon/WTF TKD, awards kids under 15 a "poom" rather than a "dan" ranking.  Basically a kid's or junior black belt.  So a 12-year old can be a black belt in TKD, but it doesn't all the way mean the same thing as an adult black belt. Where I trained, everybody took the same test, but obviously the kids didn't have the same power etc.


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## WaterGal (Feb 27, 2013)

jasonbrinn said:


> The day you open a commercial location to teach you have to consider making money, unless you personally finance it out of your kind heart.  Without commercial martial arts the martial arts would not be where it is today and would likely go underground with most of us having no where to train.



I agree with this, pretty much.  Running a martial arts school (or probably any business) is very expensive.  Since this is an anonymous nick, I'll be real straight.  Mr WaterGal (who's a master) & I opened a dojang 4 months ago.  We have 24 students on contract so far, and that's not even enough to pay the rent on the space, let alone all of our other bills (advertising, liability insurance, utilities, etc) or any personal income.  Contracts etc aren't (necessarily) about ripping students off, they're about having a steady stream of income so you can stay in business.

I think what's really relevant is whether students are getting their money and time's worth out of the classes. If you can teach something really good and challenging, provide a great supportive environment and community, and help people really grow and improve themselves, they'll be happy to pay $99/month or whatever.  (We let students try the school out for a month before committing to a contract, and so far nobody's only done one month and left.)

The problem is when schools hand out belts to whoever's stuck around for X months and don't challenge the students or teach them anything worthwhile, while expecting the same time and money commitment.  If I was going to call a school a McDojo, it would be for that reason.  We recently got a new TKD student who had been studying with one of our competitors for 2 years, and another that had been there for I think 1 year.  Their kicks weren't as good as some of our students that have been here for 3 months.  One of their instructors(!) contacted us recently and is interested in joining us as a student, because apparently the master is only there a few hours a week and doesn't teach him anything. I don't want to disrespect the other school or jump to conclusions when I don't know them, but I'm starting to get a feeling about that place, you know?


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