# To dip or not to dip



## granfire (Jul 27, 2012)

that is here the question...

http://msn.foxsports.com/olympics/f...sue-make-US-ugly-Americans-at-London-Olympics

earth shattering problems....

(by now I am sure Suke and Tez can tell us: Did they or didn't they?


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## oftheherd1 (Jul 27, 2012)

Wow.  First I had heard of this.  I can only give you my first thoughts on it.  According to your link, other countries have also declined to dip their flag at the Olympics.  Following our old lead or not, that would seem to make it not a universal thing to do, but a British custom.  Why is it so?  What does it symbolize?  Is it like bowing, which some people are against?  Or was it started to show some British superiority?  I really don't know.

What I do know, is that flag burners notwithstanding, Americans tend have a reverence and respect for their flag that most country's citizens cannot relate to.  Again, I don't know for sure how citizens of the UK think of their flag, but I have seen people on the internet comment that their flag has little meaning as far as protecting it, therefore what it stands for.  Or maybe better said, that it doesn't stand for much other than identification.  I am posting on short time so I don't know what our own protocol is for foreign flags, but I suspect they aren't required to be dipped when passing the US flag, surely when used as representations of their country in diplomatic circumstances.  But other times, I am not sure.


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## Tez3 (Jul 28, 2012)

In the UK when the we dip a flag or standard it's only for three reasons, firstly it's as a salute to the person who is taking the salute at the parade, secondly at a funeral it's in respect of the deceased and thirdly when the national anthem is played. In each case the flag is used as salute, not 'saluted' to. Troops will salute a flag when it is raised on a flagpole. The GB flag as well as the Commonwealth ones and only these should only be dipped as they pass the Queen who in effect is taking the parade but it's not a big deal and no one takes any notice, the flags will be flown high and proud. I don't know how, who to and when Americans would dip their flag at the Olympics.

The Union flag probably doesn't have a lot of significance here as anything other than a symbol but I think we are proud of our various country's flags. You'll see the English, Welsh, Irish and Scottish flags as well as the Cornish and Isle of Man being waved proudly as well as the Union flag.


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## Tez3 (Jul 28, 2012)

Oh and the person taking the parade can be of any nationality, it will have been done every time an American President has arrived here. Both the Union Flag and the Colours of the Regiment greeting the President will be dipped to him. The Colours being more important in the soldiers eyes of course!


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## granfire (Jul 28, 2012)

So only her majesty's loyal subjects are expected to dip? I mean their flags to her that is.....

In any case, TV didn't show it. They only showed as they marched in, rattled off their shtick about the country, went on commercial. They barely showed the flags as they were planted on the hill (but the fire in the middle of the stadium is a bit odd!)


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## Tez3 (Jul 28, 2012)

granfire said:


> So only her majesty's loyal subjects are expected to dip? I mean their flags to her that is.....
> 
> In any case, TV didn't show it. They only showed as they marched in, rattled off their shtick about the country, went on commercial. They barely showed the flags as they were planted on the hill (but the fire in the middle of the stadium is a bit odd!)




We had no adverts being on BBC lol, the 'hill' was meant to represent Glastonbury Tor, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glastonbury_Tor. As all the teams came there was someone with them carrying a'petal' the petals were all put together to make the flower of the fire, it was beautiful. The cauldron will be moved when the stadium is used. At the closing ceremony it will dismantled and each country givern a 'petal'.

As for dipping the flag, where the Queen was there were also heads of States, other Royalty and representatives of governments etc so when countries dipped their flags it wasn't necessarily to the Queen but to their own people, America had Michelle Obama, I don't know in what capacity ie standing in for the President, if so or someone was I'd assume you would dip your flag to whoever was representing your country rather than the Queen. However here it's a non issue, no one is bothered about the flags other than as showing where you come from. Dipping a flag is a gesture of respect from our country to something or someone, it's polite not absolutely vital.


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## granfire (Jul 28, 2012)

there were some memorable flag displays in the past, I recall one guy holding it one handed with outstretched arm....

(I am going to rewatch it tomorrow when the kid comes back from camping....yeah for DVR, I can skip through the commercials, too)


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## Tez3 (Jul 29, 2012)

The British flag bearer Sir Chris Hoy held it with one hand, he said it's a bit of a macho thing with the Brits lol. Give us a shout if you want the quirky English stuff explained lol, I think it was quite meaningful for Brits, perhaps a little puzzling for others.
Btw the eventing dressage is on live at the mo, we've got strong team so we've fingers crossed!


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## granfire (Jul 29, 2012)

damn, need to see if I can see it streamed...damn US, if it isn't gymnastics or swimming you gotta search for it!


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## Carol (Jul 29, 2012)

granfire said:


> damn, need to see if I can see it streamed...damn US, if it isn't gymnastics or swimming you gotta search for it!



They had dressage broadcast on one of the other cable networks....I can't keep them all straight.


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## granfire (Jul 30, 2012)

Carol said:


> They had dressage broadcast on one of the other cable networks....I can't keep them all straight.



I had to grab it on the NBC stream.

It was nice, no constant babbling all the time!


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## Steve (Jul 30, 2012)

There is actually a pretty well defined etiquette surrounding the US Flag and it's all pretty well written out in Order Code RL30243.  The "rules" include many very specific provisions that fall under "respect" for the flag.  One of these is that "the flag should not be dipped to any person or thing."  
http://www.senate.gov/reference/resources/pdf/RL30243.pdf

There are a number of "rules" that many well meaning Americans break.  For example, in efforts to demonstrate their patriotism, some Americans will put a cheap replica of the American flag in the window of their car and display it until it's tattered and dirty.  This isn't good.  
http://www.senate.gov/reference/resources/pdf/RL30243.pdf

They will also put a flag up outside their house on a wall pole and leave it there.  While you can display a flag 24 hours, it should be illuminated at night, not be left out during inclement weather (unless it's an all-weather flag) and should be destroyed (ideally by burning it, ironically enough) and replaced when worn.  Otherwise, put it up in the morning and take it down by dusk.

Another one commonly screwed up is when people use the flag for advertisements or as decoration.  So, technically, patches on one's gi of the USA flag are a no-no and disrespectful.  

There are many more, but ultimately, it's etiquette.  While the rules are clear, it's been pretty well established that there is no enforcement.


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## Tez3 (Jul 30, 2012)

Steve said:


> There is actually a pretty well defined etiquette surrounding the US Flag and it's all pretty well written out in Order Code RL30243. The "rules" include many very specific provisions that fall under "respect" for the flag. One of these is that "the flag should not be dipped to any person or thing."
> http://www.senate.gov/reference/resources/pdf/RL30243.pdf
> 
> There are a number of "rules" that many well meaning Americans break. For example, in efforts to demonstrate their patriotism, some Americans will put a cheap replica of the American flag in the window of their car and display it until it's tattered and dirty. This isn't good.
> ...



I didn't see this thread until after the ceremony otherwise I would have had a special look. If the American flag bearer didn't dip the flag no one would have been bothered, as I said most countries had their own Heads of State sat by the Queen so whether they 'dipped' or not to them or the Queen I don't know. It simply isn't an issue here, no one would be offended if someone didn't, many countries are in the Commonwealth so will have acknowledged both Queen and their Head of State. Usian Bolt was waving the Jamaican flag around like crazy all the way round lol. As a Knight our flag bearer Sir Chris Hoy would have acknowledged the Queen of course. 

Looking to see whether any British media mentioned it (they didn't) and what the back story is, I see _it's an Olympic tradition _to dip the flags not a British one at all. The American media seem to be talking about it, one writer suggested the Queen should be made to bow to the US flag as it went past. 
The Union Flag is just a flag, people do feel strongly however about their country's flags, the Cross of St George, as well as St Andrews Cross and St Pirran's, the Welsh Dragon and the Ulster banner, I htink people are prouder of them. Military Colours are also treated with a huge amount of respect and reverance.


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## Steve (Jul 30, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> I didn't see this thread until after the ceremony otherwise I would have had a special look. If the American flag bearer didn't dip the flag no one would have been bothered, as I said most countries had their own Heads of State sat by the Queen so whether they 'dipped' or not to them or the Queen I don't know. It simply isn't an issue here, no one would be offended if someone didn't, many countries are in the Commonwealth so will have acknowledged both Queen and their Head of State. Usian Bolt was waving the Jamaican flag around like crazy all the way round lol. As a Knight our flag bearer Sir Chris Hoy would have acknowledged the Queen of course.
> 
> Looking to see whether any British media mentioned it (they didn't) and what the back story is, I see _it's an Olympic tradition _to dip the flags not a British one at all. The American media seem to be talking about it, one writer suggested the Queen should be made to bow to the US flag as it went past.
> The Union Flag is just a flag, people do feel strongly however about their country's flags, the Cross of St George, as well as St Andrews Cross and St Pirran's, the Welsh Dragon and the Ulster banner, I htink people are prouder of them. Military Colours are also treated with a huge amount of respect and reverance.


I haven't read a thing about it at all other than in this thread.  I was just trying to explain the rules, and truthfully, I'm glad to do so.  As I mentioned before, it's a good thing to share our flag etiquette with anyone interested.  If nothing else, it can help educate other Americans about the proper treatment of our flag, because many well meaning but ignorant Americans desecrate or disrespect our flag all the time.  

For the bowing thing, we've never dipped the flag during the Olympics.  It is what it is, isn't intended as an insult and to my knowledge, in all the time I've been alive and watching the Olympics, I don't think I've ever seen or heard about any country being insulted by it. 

So, all of that said, I'm glad it's not a big deal and no one is insulted.  I'd be surprised if it were otherwise.


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## rickster (Jul 30, 2012)

Ah-the "little things" which get people "fired up"


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## Omar B (Jul 30, 2012)

Oh, first time I noticed this thread.  I'm not for dipping the flag for either of my countries, Jamaica or US.


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## Steve (Jul 30, 2012)

rickster said:


> Ah-the "little things" which get people "fired up"


I don't think anyone's fired up.  If anything, this is a thread about no one getting fired up, and appropriately so.


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## rickster (Jul 30, 2012)

Steve said:


> I don't think anyone's fired up.  If anything, this is a thread about no one getting fired up, and appropriately so.



I am nit saying anyone "here". I am saying the issue abroad


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## Tez3 (Jul 30, 2012)

rickster said:


> I am nit saying anyone "here". I am saying the issue abroad



That's the thing it's not an issue 'abroad' it's only an issue in the USA, as I said, I searched for media coverage and it was only the American media that were talking about it, some getting quite jingoistic, others just discussing it. No one has mentioned in the press or television here at all.


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## Tez3 (Jul 30, 2012)

Steve said:


> I haven't read a thing about it at all other than in this thread. I was just trying to explain the rules, and truthfully, I'm glad to do so. As I mentioned before, it's a good thing to share our flag etiquette with anyone interested. If nothing else, it can help educate other Americans about the proper treatment of our flag, because many well meaning but ignorant Americans desecrate or disrespect our flag all the time.
> 
> For the bowing thing, we've never dipped the flag during the Olympics. It is what it is, isn't intended as an insult and to my knowledge, in all the time I've been alive and watching the Olympics, I don't think I've ever seen or heard about any country being insulted by it.
> 
> So, all of that said, I'm glad it's not a big deal and no one is insulted. I'd be surprised if it were otherwise.




I don't think anyone here has thought about it, the only people who do anything about etiquette are the military when they have to and I suppose the Olympic people responsible for putting flags up at medal ceremonies. One thing that concerned a lot of us who saw it was the German politician doing Nazi salutes to the German team from the VIP stand! Honestly, I even played it back to see if what we saw was correct!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ol...rforming-Nazi-salute-at-opening-ceremony.html


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## granfire (Jul 30, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> I don't think anyone here has thought about it, the only people who do anything about etiquette are the military when they have to and I suppose the Olympic people responsible for putting flags up at medal ceremonies. One thing that concerned a lot of us who saw it was the German politician doing Nazi salutes to the German team from the VIP stand! Honestly, I even played it back to see if what we saw was correct!
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ol...rforming-Nazi-salute-at-opening-ceremony.html



The video is blocked...all 4 seconds of it...oh my.

However, reading who he is and what he stands for, I don't see were he intended to invoke the dark ghosts of Olympic past (which btw, according to some sources, he offered himself as hostage in 72 in exchange for the Israely athletes....)


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## Tez3 (Jul 30, 2012)

This might show 




Inadvertant or not it gave a lot of people a nasty moment I'm afraid. The war days cast a long shadow.


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## granfire (Jul 30, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> This might show
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It actually looks like a Marti Grass salute to me. (which is actually a  surprise because he isn't from Karneval stock....)

But I do get the reaction: I too a picture of my boy scouts at an important function. all boys were in their uniforms, throwing up their right hands in scout salute....I can tell you my eyes bugged out for a few seconds when I saw it on the computer screen! 

However, I don't see the nazi salute...I am wondering if the man had a stroke...who waves with their left?! His right was just hanging down his side, really odd.





If you can stomach it...you see what I mean, that wavy motion across the body...and no, even though they are smiling, this has little to do with fun!


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## rickster (Jul 31, 2012)

Actually, when frst reading the thread title, I thought of this;


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## Bill Mattocks (Jul 31, 2012)

In the Marine Corps, when we 'Pass in Review' at a parade, we have the USMC flag and the US flag at the front of the formation.  The USMC flag is dipped for the review, but the US flag is not, ever.  We have been told that that the US flag is never dipped for any reason.  By the same token, we stand at attention for the national anthem of other countries, but we salute only our own flag.

I've always enjoyed this song by The Beat (The English Beat in the US):






[video=youtube_share;2A_UrMdYFFA]http://youtu.be/2A_UrMdYFFA[/video]

The lyrics may be somewhat anti-nationalist, which I get, but I still like this stanza:

_Yes, I'll be down your street again quite soon
And don't ignore me when I wave at you
For although I'm looking rather sad
I'm all you've ever really had
And when you're desperate, you will hold me
Hold me to that_


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