# Siu Nim Tau-Demo



## futsaowingchun (Jan 19, 2015)




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## Transk53 (Jan 20, 2015)

Well I thoroughly enjoyed that. Thanks for posting. looked positive to me


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## yak sao (Jan 20, 2015)

Is that Fut sao lineage SNT? I believe you had mentioned before that you also trained in some Yip Man lineage.
Other than a couple of minor differences, that is how we train the form as well in Leung Ting lineage, which as you know, is from Yip Man's line.

Nice job BTW.  I heard the sirens at the very beginning and half way expected to see a cop  come up to you and tell you to move along.


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## PiedmontChun (Jan 20, 2015)

I am curious about the Fak Sao movement or whisking arm as you execute it here. I notice it's broken down into 2 distinct movements; first the elbow moves out, then the forearm and hand extend outward almost like a bi-fold door. I'm interested in your lineage's thought or intent behind that, and your applications of it if you'd like to elaborate. 

I bring it up because I am used to seeing it as a more rapid, continuous movement in the SNT form my school does. As far as application, sometimes in chi sau and sparring, fak sao is a strike to the opponents neck. The elbow is already in position for that so it would be akin to second half of the movement as you perform it. However, the fak sao is also used in my school frequently as a strike to an opponent far outside our centerline, or to apply pressure to an opponent's head or neck to counter an attempted head lock / grab from the side and in those cases it is a continuous extension of the arm.

Also, thanks for posting the video!


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## Vajramusti (Jan 20, 2015)

futsaowingchun said:


>


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I don't do fut sao wing chun. Understandably there are differences. Among them a serious one is putting both gum saos down at the same time.


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## Danny T (Jan 20, 2015)

Nice.
There will always be stylistic differences. Not right or wrong just different.


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## wtxs (Jan 20, 2015)

PiedmontChun said:


> I am curious about the Fak Sao movement or whisking arm as you execute it here. I notice it's broken down into 2 distinct movements; first the elbow moves out, then the forearm and hand extend outward almost like a bi-fold door. I'm interested in your lineage's thought or intent behind that, and your applications of it if you'd like to elaborate.
> 
> I bring it up because I am used to seeing it as a more rapid, continuous movement in the SNT form my school does. As far as application, sometimes in chi sau and sparring, fak sao is a strike to the opponents neck. The elbow is already in position for that so it would be akin to second half of the movement as you perform it. However, the fak sao is also used in my school frequently as a strike to an opponent far outside our centerline, or to apply pressure to an opponent's head or neck to counter an attempted head lock / grab from the side and in those cases it is a continuous extension of the arm.
> 
> Also, thanks for posting the video!



I can think at least 2 usages.  First motion - an "elbow" strike, not necessary the elbow itself, but with the upper arm.  Second motion - follow through (after re-facing)  with the Fak as you opponent react to the first strike


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## Marnetmar (Jan 20, 2015)

Cool stuff. I'm curious as to why the finger thrusts at 1:43 go above the head.


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## futsaowingchun (Jan 20, 2015)

yak sao said:


> Is that Fut sao lineage SNT? I believe you had mentioned before that you also trained in some Yip Man lineage.
> Other than a couple of minor differences, that is how we train the form as well in Leung Ting lineage, which as you know, is from Yip Man's line.
> 
> Nice job BTW.  I heard the sirens at the very beginning and half way expected to see a cop  come up to you and tell you to move along.



LOL yeah NYC I think was on high alert that day cops where everywhere. I was only a 5 min walk from where the twin towers where attack. 

Yes this Siu Nim Tau form is from the Fut Sao lineage. it's very similar to the Ip Man version also. Before I trained in Fut Sao I learnt Ip Man WC under Moy Yat and Lee Moy Shan of NYC for many years. I use both systems,so what I do is a bit of both which is my own interpretation.


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## futsaowingchun (Jan 20, 2015)

PiedmontChun said:


> I am curious about the Fak Sao movement or whisking arm as you execute it here. I notice it's broken down into 2 distinct movements; first the elbow moves out, then the forearm and hand extend outward almost like a bi-fold door. I'm interested in your lineage's thought or intent behind that, and your applications of it if you'd like to elaborate.
> 
> I bring it up because I am used to seeing it as a more rapid, continuous movement in the SNT form my school does. As far as application, sometimes in chi sau and sparring, fak sao is a strike to the opponents neck. The elbow is already in position for that so it would be akin to second half of the movement as you perform it. However, the fak sao is also used in my school frequently as a strike to an opponent far outside our centerline, or to apply pressure to an opponent's head or neck to counter an attempted head lock / grab from the side and in those cases it is a continuous extension of the arm.
> 
> Also, thanks for posting the video!




Hi PiedmontChun.. Yes,your right the Fak Sao movements are broken into two distinct ideas. First the short range the elbow then the long range the side palm strike. The idea is like in Bil Jee the elbow (the short then the finger strike the long range) SNT contains the seeds of chum kiu and Bil Gee so whatever you do in any form the root is in the SNT. SNT has elbow strikes this is just one of them,and the application are to many.Maybe I should do a video on it..


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## futsaowingchun (Jan 20, 2015)

Vajramusti said:


> ------------------------------------------------
> I don't do fut sao wing chun. Understandably there are differences. Among them a serious one is putting both gum saos down at the same time.



why is performing the side gum sao at the same time a problem? I see no problem.


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## futsaowingchun (Jan 20, 2015)

wtxs said:


> I can think at least 2 usages.  First motion - an "elbow" strike, not necessary the elbow itself, but with the upper arm.  Second motion - follow through (after re-facing)  with the Fak as you opponent react to the first strike




Yes that is one, but remember the form is only a blue print you don't fight in the form. It is only a bunch of Ideas strung together.


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## futsaowingchun (Jan 20, 2015)

Danny T said:


> Nice.
> There will always be stylistic differences. Not right or wrong just different.



I agree, all version are valid and  correct.


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## Vajramusti (Jan 21, 2015)

futsaowingchun said:


> why is performing the side gum sao at the same time a problem? I see no problem.


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Has to do with leaking energy upward. You wont see Ip Man pics doing that.


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## Marnetmar (Jan 21, 2015)

Vajramusti said:


> -------------------------------------------------
> Has to do with leaking energy upward. You wont see Ip Man pics doing that.



Usually you'll find that the reasons for differences in martial arts styles is because they have different things they're trying to accomplish, so "leaking energy upward" is probably beside the point here.

Plus, I don't think "Yip Man never did that" is a valid way to justify why another style is wrong. You don't see Yip Man doing SLT like Sum Nung, yet I'm pretty sure Sum Nung could still kick some ***:

[yt]


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## Transk53 (Jan 21, 2015)

futsaowingchun said:


> Hi PiedmontChun.. Yes,your right the Fak Sao movements are broken into two distinct ideas. First the short range the elbow then the long range the side palm strike. The idea is like in Bil Jee the elbow (the short then the finger strike the long range) SNT contains the seeds of chum kiu and Bil Gee so whatever you do in any form the root is in the SNT. SNT has elbow strikes this is just one of them,and the application are to many.Maybe I should do a video on it..



Please do a vid on that


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## futsaowingchun (Jan 21, 2015)

Marnetmar said:


> Cool stuff. I'm curious as to why the finger thrusts at 1:43 go above the head.


That is not a finger strike but a palm strike.


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## tshadowchaser (Jan 21, 2015)

just want to say I enjoyed the first video immensely. thank you for posting it


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## Vajramusti (Jan 22, 2015)

futsaowingchun said:


> I agree, all version are valid and  correct.


------------------------------------------------------------------
Greshams law will take over -if that was the case.


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## Danny T (Jan 22, 2015)

Vajramusti said:


> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> Greshams law will take over -if that was the case.


Joy, unfortunately that is the case in many aspects.


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## futsaowingchun (Jan 22, 2015)

tshadowchaser said:


> just want to say I enjoyed the first video immensely. thank you for posting it



your welcome..Glad you liked it.


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## futsaowingchun (Jan 22, 2015)

Vajramusti said:


> -------------------------------------------------
> Has to do with leaking energy upward. You wont see Ip Man pics doing that.



Can you see my energy leaking upwards on the video? or do you mean in theory?and if so can you explain it as I'm not aware of any theory. What about the back and front Gum Saos? There are done at the same time also. Wouldn't there be an energy leakage also?


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## Vajramusti (Jan 22, 2015)

futsaowingchun said:


> Can you see my energy leaking upwards on the video? or do you mean in theory?and if so can you explain it as I'm not aware of any theory. What about the back and front Gum Saos? There are done at the same time also. Wouldn't there be an energy leakage also?


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_----I don't want a prolonged discussion that can be mis-interpreted.Wing chun imo is very conceptual as well as practical. Many folks do not have sufficient grounding in the concepts. BTW Moy Yat's slt does not have two handed gum saos straight down on the side.

When the ygkym is centered, sunk and the horse is settled- the proper yin yang balances  keep the proper structure in place without muscle force. If both hands go down at the same time- action/reaction dynamics mean that
the structure will go up. Doing one hand at a time minimizes that possibility.
The hand going down is balanced by the slight elbow motion in the other hand.
The forward and backward gum saos have their horizontal level balancing
not disturbing the vertical balance .


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## futsaowingchun (Jan 22, 2015)

Vajramusti said:


> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> _----I don't want a prolonged discussion that can be mis-interpreted.Wing chun imo is very conceptual as well as practical. Many folks do not have sufficient grounding in the concepts. BTW Moy Yat's slt does not have two handed gum saos straight down on the side.
> 
> When the ygkym is centered, sunk and the horse is settled- the proper yin yang balances  keep the proper structure in place without muscle force. If both hands go down at the same time- action/reaction dynamics mean that
> ...



Yes,I know Moy Yat's SNT  does not have have the two handed Gum Sao's. I'm doing the Fut Sao SLT version. I understand about the what your say. I believe your talking about Newton's 3rd law.In Fut sao there is no reaction to the gum saos because the energy is disperse not into the structure but into the ground this is done by not hold the structure but letting it go.


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## Danny T (Jan 22, 2015)

futsaowingchun said:


> Yes,I know Moy Yat's SNT  does not have have the two handed Gum Sao's. I'm doing the Fut Sao SLT version. I understand about the what your say. I believe your talking about Newton's 3rd law.In Fut sao there is no reaction to the gum saos because the energy is disperse not into the structure but into the ground this is done by not hold the structure but letting it go.


Have a partner stand on each side with an arm palm up under your hand. Perform your double gum sao's. What happens to your body? Now perform it one hand only. What happens to your body? What are the differences?


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## Vajramusti (Jan 23, 2015)

Danny T said:


> Have a partner stand on each side with an arm palm up under your hand. Perform your double gum sao's. What happens to your body? Now perform it one hand only. What happens to your body? What are the differences?


---------------------------------
A good test of whether the horizontal   body line is moving up and down.


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## futsaowingchun (Jan 23, 2015)

Danny T said:


> Have a partner stand on each side with an arm palm up under your hand. Perform your double gum sao's. What happens to your body? Now perform it one hand only. What happens to your body? What are the differences?



Danny I see what your saying but how you apply the gum sao in application is not the same as performing it in the Form.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 23, 2015)

futsaowingchun said:


> how you apply the gum sao in application is not the same as performing it in the Form.


This is why you (general YOU) should train "drills" and you should not train "forms". The forms are only designed for "teaching and learning" only. It's not designed for "training". You can map "Gum Sao" application into different drills and only train those drills without training the form.


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## Danny T (Jan 23, 2015)

futsaowingchun said:


> Danny I see what your saying but how you apply the gum sao in application is not the same as performing it in the Form.


Agreed.
However, the understanding of the energies, the stabilization, and use of the movement remains denoted within the form remains.


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## futsaowingchun (Jan 24, 2015)

Any thing else in the form that you believes is wrong?


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## yak sao (Jan 24, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is why you (general YOU) should train "drills" and you should not train "forms". The forms are only designed for "teaching and learning" only. It's not designed for "training". You can map "Gum Sao" application into different drills and only train those drills without training the form.



Wing Chun forms should be seen as a reference tool. Much like a dictionary or a catalogue. They should be practiced, but not so I can become good at the form, but so I can become good at what the form teaches

Taking Siu Nim Tao as an example, if the only time I practice the fak sau movement is within SNT, and I practice the SNT every day, then, in a years time, I have only practiced fak sau 365 times. At that rate, it would take 3 years to reach 1000 repetitions.
Better to take the fak sau out of the form. Practice it, drill on it with a partner during chi sau and lat sau. Use it against a focus pad, etc. Then place it back in the form. My fak sau is now better.
I use the analogy of having a classic car. If you take each part of the engine out, work on it until it is working at optimum efficiency then put it back in the engine, the whole engine runs better.


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## Danny T (Jan 24, 2015)

yak sao said:


> Wing Chun forms should be seen as a reference tool. Much like a dictionary or a catalogue. They should be practiced, but not so I can become good at the form, but so I can become good at what the form teaches


Learn, practice and perform the form for practicality not for beauty. The beauty and artistic aspect of the form is in it's practicality. Form will not teach range, timing, targeting, power, speed, etc; however, having good form will allow all of these to manifest within the practitioner.


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