# What the hell is Enlightenment!?



## TieXiongJi (Jan 23, 2017)

I have been hunting for this elusive ENLIGHTENMENT since I heard the word when I was ~10 years old.
I have studied philosophy (100's...). I have studied martial arts (at least 10 conflicting theories). I have studied science and engineering (focused on electrical, but never forgot that all disciplines stem from the same fundamental concepts).
I have come up with this so far.

Everything is 1, everything is trying to become a better 1, and everything will avoid 0 as that is the end.

Many truths can be discovered through explaining this concept in detail, but I would love some external input from the martial arts community.
I have met many people who claim to have figured it out, but only a few who understand what I am saying with the above and the more elaborate conversation.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 23, 2017)

I would say that if you think you should be having elaborate conversations about it, then you haven't found it.


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## TieXiongJi (Jan 23, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> I would say that if you think you should be having elaborate conversations about it, then you haven't found it.


Ok. Then how would you explain it to another person? What good is an idea trapped inside your head?


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## Danny T (Jan 23, 2017)

TieXiongJi said:


> *"What the hell is Enlightenment!?"*
> I have been hunting for this elusive ENLIGHTENMENT since I heard the word when I was ~10 years old.



It is the state of having knowledge or understanding.
With the above knowledge you are now enlightened.
Glad to have been of service.


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## ShortBridge (Jan 23, 2017)

What the hell is enlightenment, indeed.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 23, 2017)

TieXiongJi said:


> Ok. Then how would you explain it to another person? What good is an idea trapped inside your head?


I dunno.  How long does it take to learn patience?


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## Buka (Jan 23, 2017)

Enlightenment...


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## Danny T (Jan 23, 2017)

Buka said:


> Enlightenment...


'Thinks' like that happen when viewing from only one perspective.


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## Steve (Jan 23, 2017)

Danny T said:


> 'Thinks' like that happen when viewing from only one perspective.


So enlightenment is a matter of perspective?


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 23, 2017)

You want the Asian philosophy answer or the western science answer?


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## TieXiongJi (Jan 23, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> I dunno.  How long does it take to learn patience?


Patience is a sliding scale. I am much more patient with beginners than an advanced student.
When I am trying to understand truth, or become enlightened about a topic, I have to discuss the topic. Discussing Enlightenment and the process is more important than finding it then quitting. Just asking your opinion on the matter. Saying, "I would say that if you think you should be having elaborate conversations about it, then you haven't found it." can be applied to any topic which you don't understand and have no path to understanding.


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## TieXiongJi (Jan 23, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> You want the Asian philosophy answer or the western science answer?


I want your answer. What is your answer to, "What is Enlightenment?"


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## Danny T (Jan 23, 2017)

Steve said:


> So enlightenment is a matter of perspective?


LOL!


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## Flying Crane (Jan 23, 2017)

TieXiongJi said:


> Patience is a sliding scale. I am much more patient with beginners than an advanced student.
> When I am trying to understand truth, or become enlightened about a topic, I have to discuss the topic. Discussing Enlightenment and the process is more important than finding it then quitting. Just asking your opinion on the matter. Saying, "I would say that if you think you should be having elaborate conversations about it, then you haven't found it." can be applied to any topic which you don't understand and have no path to understanding.


Are you losing your patience with me?  I'll look around here, in case you've dropped it somewhere.


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## TieXiongJi (Jan 23, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Are you losing your patience with me?  I'll look around here, in case you've dropped it somewhere.


No, I feel like you won't even attempt to answer the question and you are trolling me with your responses.
We can have a conversation or not. So, ttyl.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 23, 2017)

TieXiongJi said:


> No, I feel like you won't even attempt to answer the question and you are trolling me with your responses.
> We can have a conversation or not. So, ttyl.


I would say you are missing the point altogether, then.  This isn't something to be nailed down.  You don't suddenly become enlightened.  I would say it might come to some people who aren't looking for it, but doubtful that those looking for it will ever find it.

I would not say it is synonymous with being at peace, either.  Enlightenment could cause a lot of inner turmoil.

I don't know much about it, but those are my initial thoughts on it.

What do you hope to gain from it?


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 23, 2017)

TieXiongJi said:


> I want your answer.  What is your answer to, "What is Enlightenment?"


my answer will only be words that describe my understanding ,so i was asking if you want me to use Asian or western terminology. they are the same understanding and reality but how you convey that understanding will be completely different, so different in fact unless the reader is enlightened he may think they are two separate things.

i will answer this in Chis Parker style,


TieXiongJi said:


> I have been hunting for this elusive ENLIGHTENMENT since I heard the word when I was ~10 years old.


ok..  the age is not really relevant but i assume you mean you have been wondering about it for a long time.


TieXiongJi said:


> I have studied philosophy (100's...).


totally irrelevant.   to study football will not make you better at tennis.  so why would reading  Satre, Adorno  or Viktor Frankl help you with a Hindu and Buddhist concept that at its core acknowledges that academic pursuits and thinking can not comprehend.  its like trying to find out what love is and reading that love is sweaty palms and butterflies in your stomach then wondering how they got in there.



TieXiongJi said:


> I have studied martial arts (at least 10 conflicting theories).


Again totally different pursuits, i have found most martial artists have little to no interest in the subject.  a few may but often are content with eating a Mcdojo version rather than an actual steak they had to work for. in martial arts it is almost always a marketing gimmic not an actual pursuit.



TieXiongJi said:


> I have studied science and engineering (focused on electrical,


do i have to repeat my last two statements again? 
by reading your post i will have to assume your knowledge of the subject would be no more insightfull then my postman.



TieXiongJi said:


> Everything is 1, everything is trying to become a better 1, and everything will avoid 0 as that is the end.
> 
> Many truths can be discovered through explaining this concept in detail, but I would love some external input from the martial arts community.
> I have met many people who claim to have figured it out, but only a few who understand what I am saying with the above and the more elaborate conversation.


so the way i read this statement is that you have the answer and if we"dont understand what your saying with your "formula statement " then you need to explain it to us.




so i will give you my official Zen Answer and you can explain it ....
"_outside, waves crash on a rocky shore.   Inside the moon reflects on still waters"_
"_Above not a tile to shield my head.  Below not an inch to place a step"

when you aim at the target with the mind you miss it all the more.  You cannot use your mind to understand  and regulate your mind.   would you not need two?  Do not tell me what you think "IT"  is show me !!! Show me your original mind!!!!  IF you cannot then you have missed the target. The way to enlightenment is not thru the four noble truths or the eight fold path, if you find the Buddha by the side of the road ....KILL HIM!!!!   
Sit grasshopper Sit.   be still ...watch the breath and dont look ,, dont search.  thinking leads to confusion
Philosophy  ha ha...." i think.. therefor i am confused"  _


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## TieXiongJi (Jan 23, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> I would say you are missing the point altogether, then.  This isn't something to be nailed down.  You don't suddenly become enlightened.  I would say it might come to some people who aren't looking for it, but doubtful that those looking for it will ever find it.
> 
> I would not say it is synonymous with being at peace, either.  Enlightenment could cause a lot of inner turmoil.
> 
> ...



More understanding of a concept through thoughtful discussion, sensible logic, find the fundamental truth of the matter. You know, how we investigate anything.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 23, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> my answer will only be words that describe my understanding ,so i was asking if you want me to use Asian or western terminology. they are the same understanding and reality but how you convey that understanding will be completely different, so different in fact unless the reader is enlightened he may think they are two separate things.
> 
> i will answer this in Chis Parker style,
> 
> ...


That was really well done.  I would have believed that Chris Parker had made this post if no name were attached to it.  You captured his style remarkably well.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 23, 2017)

TieXiongJi said:


> More understanding of a concept through thoughtful discussion, sensible logic, find the fundamental truth of the matter. You know, how we investigate anything.


I am afraid you will never discover enlightenment, then.  Nor will you learn patience on an accelerated path of study.


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 23, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> That was really well done.  I would have believed that Chris Parker had made this post if no name were attached to it.  You captured his style remarkably well.


well he has a style thats for sure.   lol   been on the receiving end a few times myself.  always fun, like a cranial enema.


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## jks9199 (Jan 23, 2017)

Perhaps the whole problem is that you're hunting it...


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## TieXiongJi (Jan 23, 2017)

Thanks for the response!
I will respond in turn.



hoshin1600 said:


> do i have to repeat my last two statements again?
> by reading your post i will have to assume your knowledge of the subject would be no more insightfull then my postman.


Why would your postman not have a good understanding of enlightenment? Have you asked any of them?

You mentioned that my personal experience is irrelevant to understanding Enlightenment. I do not see the connection as everything that you have experienced is the sum of you. How can you move forward without everything that happened before?
The sum of my experience has led me to many realizations and all I was trying to do was convey some pathways to understanding that I have traversed.



hoshin1600 said:


> so the way i read this statement is that you have the answer and if we"dont understand what your saying with your "formula statement " then you need to explain it to us.



I am attempting to put the whole experience into words and you saying that I won't listen is very presumptuous. I want to know more as I seek knowledge everyday.



hoshin1600 said:


> so i will give you my official Zen Answer and you can explain it ....
> "_outside, waves crash on a rocky shore. Inside the moon reflects on still waters"_
> "_Above not a tile to shield my head. Below not an inch to place a step"
> 
> ...




That is some interesting poetry. The first lines seem Buddhist; similar to the idea of nothingness or no truth to be found in the world.
What does that mean to you?

The second piece is somewhat ridiculous. How else do we understand our mind other than examining it like we are experiencing it from another viewpoint. We analyze the people around us based on their actions, their words. I am only able to analyze and understand another by analyzing and understanding myself.
I love the old phrase, "If you find Buddha by the side of the road...KILL HIM!!!" IMO, never stop seeking. There is always another plateau to reach, another concept to understand.
And the philosophy line, LOL. DeCartes may be confused, but he is thought, expressed himself, died and is as immortal as any of us could be through writing and thought.
We must never quit thinking and exploring for that is the end of thought.

Again, thanks for keeping the conversation going.


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## TieXiongJi (Jan 23, 2017)

jks9199 said:


> Perhaps the whole problem is that you're hunting it...


How would you eat the deer without hunting first?


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 23, 2017)

TieXiongJi said:


> How would you eat the deer without hunting first?


Not only have you missed the target but you left your bow and arrow at home.


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## TieXiongJi (Jan 23, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> Not only have you missed the target but you left your bow and arrow at home.


Guess I have to practice my archery and make a proper carrying case.


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 23, 2017)

TieXiongJi said:


> Guess I have to practice my archery and make a proper carrying case.


my phone is dying but I'll start to use western thought.
Your trying to intellectually understand something like love.  You can't do it that way. Only through direct experience can you actually "know" what love or enlightenment is.  To talk about how a tree grows doesn't help the tree at all.
Your life experiences have no impact on this.  Only direct experience with the guidance of an actual teacher can lead you there.  In this way enlightenment is the same as martial arts,  unless you are studying with an actual teacher are you going to get there. Otherwise your just pretending


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## TieXiongJi (Jan 23, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> my phone is dying but I'll start to use western thought.
> Your trying to intellectually understand something like love.  You can't do it that way. Only through direct experience can you actually "know" what love or enlightenment is.  To talk about how a tree grows doesn't help the tree at all.
> Your life experiences have no impact on this.  Only direct experience with the guidance of an actual teacher can lead you there.  In this way enlightenment is the same as martial arts,  unless you are studying with an actual teacher are you going to get there. Otherwise your just pretending



So you are saying Enlightenment is something to discover, but only with the right teacher.

Who taught you about Enlightenment? Did you ever feel like you found enlightenment? If yes, how long did it take? Any notes on the path you took?


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## oaktree (Jan 23, 2017)

If you are asking for what enlightenment is you are not looking within, you are seeking something concrete, a definitive answer and I can only point you to it you have to open your eyes to see it. Any way that is a Buddhist priest answer to your question.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 23, 2017)

TieXiongJi said:


> So you are saying Enlightenment is something to discover, but only with the right teacher.
> 
> Who taught you about Enlightenment? Did you ever feel like you found enlightenment? If yes, how long did it take? Any notes on the path you took?


Look under your mattress.  You might have left it there.


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## Steve (Jan 23, 2017)

Trying to be a little serious here, my confusion with this thread is that it's an attempt to discuss something that is inherently internal.  I don't know a ton about Buddhism, but what I've seen suggests that the path to enlightenment is largely solitary and introspective. 

So, bringing it up with a bunch of strangers on a message board is strangely incongruous.


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 23, 2017)

TieXiongJi said:


> So you are saying Enlightenment is something to discover, but only with the right teacher.
> 
> Who taught you about Enlightenment? Did you ever feel like you found enlightenment? If yes, how long did it take? Any notes on the path you took?


ill answer the second question first..  Hosakawa Roshi,  Diahonzen Chozen JI,  Rinzai Zen.  The rest is irrelevant.

For the Asian thought process enlightenment just is.  The experience is what it is.  But for western thought the we separate the experience from the process from the actual scientific explanation.
thats why i asked what answer you would like. 
my simple western answer is this.   the science is that there is a re wiring of the brain.  the practice is a process of immersion.  without the process you will get nowhere.  you cant intellectually learn it.  the immersion process re wires the brain pathways and how the brain functions.  enlightenment by its very nature short circuits any attempt of rational intellectual thought.  your using the wrong side of the brain.  the quickest attainment of enlightenment i have ever heard of was by a women who had a stroke.  half her brain shut down and she was in a state of enlightened bliss instantly.
in your attempt to "study" enlightenment. your post seems to show a lack of understanding of the destination and therefore you fill that ignorance ( in the true sense not using it as an insult)  with a fallacy, a conclusion of your own intellect without comprehension of the subject.   
so it is not something to think about intellectually. its not something to discover. at best i would say its something to develop.  the only way to develop is through the correct process.  you cant learn the process it can only be done through immersion in the process.  thats why Buddhism and enlightenment  is likened to a flame being passes from candle to candle.


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 23, 2017)

Steve said:


> Trying to be a little serious here, my confusion with this thread is that it's an attempt to discuss something that is inherently internal.  I don't know a ton about Buddhism, but what I've seen suggests that the path to enlightenment is largely solitary and introspective.
> 
> So, bringing it up with a bunch of strangers on a message board is strangely incongruous.



solitary enlightenment is a nice little story but for the last 2500 years its been passed in a group called a Sangha. but its about as solitary as being a pro boxer , you do step into the ring by yourself.


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 23, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Look under your mattress.  You might have left it there.


i usually find things in my refrigerator.  they seem to taste much better


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## Ironbear24 (Jan 23, 2017)

Something that people spend their lives trying to achieve and never do.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 23, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> ill answer the second question first..  Hosakawa Roshi,  Diahonzen Chozen JI,  Rinzai Zen.  The rest is irrelevant.
> 
> For the Asian thought process enlightenment just is.  The experience is what it is.  But for western thought the we separate the experience from the process from the actual scientific explanation.
> thats why i asked what answer you would like.
> ...


I want to have that stroke.


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 23, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> I want to have that stroke.


i get what your saying  but,,, No no you dont. she was going to die i mean we are talking a stroke here.  i should add to the story she was by chance a doctor.  she new she needed help.  she lost complete and total comprehension of numbers and speech.  she was able to dial the phone for help by matching the shapes of the numbers on a business card to the shapes on the phone.  the person who answered recognized the voice but it was just sounds not actual speech, typical of a stroke.  but she new she was probably going to die but was "ok" with that.  she was happy.  she just sat on the couch and enjoyed the moment.
also there is a state of thought without internal speech thought.  thinking without words.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 23, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> i get what your saying  but,,, No no you dont. she was going to die i mean we are talking a stroke here.  i should add to the story she was by chance a doctor.  she new she needed help.  she lost complete and total comprehension of numbers and speech.  she was able to dial the phone for help by matching the shapes of the numbers on a business card to the shapes on the phone.  the person who answered recognized the voice but it was just sounds not actual speech, typical of a stroke.  but she new she was probably going to die but was "ok" with that.  she was happy.  she just sat on the couch and enjoyed the moment.
> also there is a state of thought without internal speech thought.  thinking without words.


Oh I know, I understand the seriousness of a stroke.  Was just being silly.


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## TieXiongJi (Jan 23, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> ill answer the second question first..  Hosakawa Roshi,  Diahonzen Chozen JI,  Rinzai Zen.  The rest is irrelevant.
> 
> For the Asian thought process enlightenment just is.  The experience is what it is.  But for western thought the we separate the experience from the process from the actual scientific explanation.
> thats why i asked what answer you would like.
> ...


So you can't attain enlightenment from just any direction. One must find the start of the path before one can start walking the path.
Looks like you took the Buddhist path (Daiyuzenji Rinzai Zen Temple - History)
You mentioned I lack understanding of the destination. Of course, that is why the title is, "What the hell is Enlightenment?"
I have communicated my ideas to many others and have received both instant agreement and fervent disagreement. I just want to know. Thanks for the tip.
So far I have been exposed to tons of Taoist concepts, but the Buddhist concepts seem very negative. I am still trying to understand the story of Bodhidharma when he returns to the emperor to relay there is no truth and he doesn't know anything, even his own identity (which I suspect is either metaphor or lost in translation). Maybe I will get his meaning one day...

Let me give a try at the "destination" based on your explanation:
Enlightenment is an experience of pure bliss.

And the pathway requires:
Enlightenment requires rewiring your brain (possibly through meditation and study?)

Hopefully another member will take on the task and explain in detail like you have. Thank you!


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## Flying Crane (Jan 23, 2017)

TieXiongJi said:


> So you can't attain enlightenment from just any direction. One must find the start of the path before one can start walking the path.
> Looks like you took the Buddhist path (Daiyuzenji Rinzai Zen Temple - History)
> You mentioned I lack understanding of the destination. Of course, that is why the title is, "What the hell is Enlightenment?"
> I have communicated my ideas to many others and have received both instant agreement and fervent disagreement. I just want to know. Thanks for the tip.
> ...


I am not convinced that you need to find the start of any particular path.  

A path may get you there. But likewise, no path may get you there too.  And the BEST path may not get you there, even if your friend got there on that path.


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## TieXiongJi (Jan 23, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> I am not convinced that you need to find the start of any particular path.
> 
> A path may get you there. But likewise, no path may get you there too.  And the BEST path may not get you there, even if your friend got there on that path.



A real conundrum


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 23, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> I am not convinced that you need to find the start of any particular path.
> 
> A path may get you there. But likewise, no path may get you there too.  And the BEST path may not get you there, even if your friend got there on that path.


depends on how you define enlightenment.  you could ask Neil Degrass Tyson to enlighten you on the science of the cosmos, but by the definition we are using here enlightenment was the experience of a guy named Siddhartha Gautama and he basically said this is what i have experienced and this is how i did it,  you can do it too if you do XYZ.  so you follow the map and sometimes you get there.  but people get there much less often if you just roam about aimlessly.




TieXiongJi said:


> the Buddhist concepts seem very negative.


how are the Buddhist concepts negative to you?


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## Flying Crane (Jan 23, 2017)

TieXiongJi said:


> A real conundrum


It is.

I don't think it can really be mapped or explained in straight-forward terms.  It is something that some people simply come to understand thru their life experiences and perhaps their own personality contributes.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 23, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> depends on how you define enlightenment.  you could ask Neil Degrass Tyson to enlighten you on the science of the cosmos, but by the definition we are using here enlightenment was the experience of a guy named Siddhartha Gautama and he basically said this is what i have experienced and this is how i did it,  you can do it too if you do XYZ.  so you follow the map and sometimes you get there.  but people get there much less often if you just roam about aimlessly.
> 
> 
> 
> how are the Buddhist concepts negative to you?


Sure, I've been reading a bit of Tyson lately, understanding the cosmos is enlightening in its way.  Good stuff!


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 23, 2017)

Steve said:


> So enlightenment is a matter of perspective?


Yes, when your conclusions agree with mine, that is a light. When you disagree, it means you better hit the dollar store for another light bulb.


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 23, 2017)

I should add that enlightenment is not the goal for the practice. It may happen but it's just another part of the process.  I would say getting rid of all dualistic thought and ripping it out at the root is the goal. 
_It's best not to have a goal and just sit_


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## KangTsai (Jan 24, 2017)

Enlightenment is death. *Party horn noise*


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## Buka (Jan 24, 2017)

A close friend of mine is Buddhist. Not your average guy who suddenly becomes a Buddhist, he spent seven years of his life in a Buddhist Monastery (is that the right word?) in Japan for seven years. So I e-mailed him, asked him how he would define "enlightenment". 

His immediate response was En-lighten-ment: "to lighten up" ;-)"

I laughed and asked if it could actually be defined. His response was -

_not sure about defining it, but here are some possible signs:

*12 Signs of a Spiritual Awakening *

An increased tendency to let things happen rather than make them happen.

Frequent attacks of smiling.

Feelings of being connected with others and nature.

Frequent overwhelming episodes of appreciation.

A tendency to think and act spontaneously rather than from fears based on past experience.

An unmistakable ability to enjoy each moment.

A loss of ability to worry.

A loss of interest in conflict.*
*
A loss of interest in interpreting the actions of others.

A loss of interest in judging others.

A loss of interest in judging self.

Gaining the ability to love without expecting anything in return.
_
I think he might be on to something there.


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 24, 2017)

Buka said:


> A close friend of mine is Buddhist. Not your average guy who suddenly becomes a Buddhist, he spent seven years of his life in a Buddhist Monastery (is that the right word?) in Japan for seven years. So I e-mailed him, asked him how he would define "enlightenment".
> 
> His immediate response was En-lighten-ment: "to lighten up" ;-)"
> 
> ...


Brilliant.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 24, 2017)

TieXiongJi said:


> Ok. Then how would you explain it to another person? What good is an idea trapped inside your head?


Enlightenment is internal. I think it cannot be explained to another without some shared enlightenment. By that, I mean that there is not one enlightenment, but many areas in which one can be enlightened. If you share an area with someone (both having been enlightened in that area), then you have a common language of enlightenment from which to discuss the topic. If two people both understand enlightenment in many areas, they may be able to discuss it without a single shared area of enlightenment.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 24, 2017)

Steve said:


> So enlightenment is a matter of perspective?


Indeed.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 24, 2017)

TieXiongJi said:


> No, I feel like you won't even attempt to answer the question and you are trolling me with your responses.
> We can have a conversation or not. So, ttyl.


Your lack of patience with FC's answer is part of your path. It's an oblique approach to get you to look at yourself.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 24, 2017)

TieXiongJi said:


> More understanding of a concept through thoughtful discussion, sensible logic, find the fundamental truth of the matter. You know, how we investigate anything.


IMO, enlightenment and investigation are at cross purposes. You can seek both, but not in the same moment.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 24, 2017)

TieXiongJi said:


> How would you eat the deer without hunting first?


You kill it to eat it. Hunting enlightenment may kill it, too. 

(Sounds cool, anyway.)


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 24, 2017)

TieXiongJi said:


> So you are saying Enlightenment is something to discover, but only with the right teacher.
> 
> Who taught you about Enlightenment? Did you ever feel like you found enlightenment? If yes, how long did it take? Any notes on the path you took?


I don't agree that only by a teacher can one find enlightenment. Some stumble upon it. Some find it through experience. Some find it through earnest meditation. Some through a teacher. The path is too individual to be predicted - it is only clear after the fact. None, that I know of, finds it through intellect.


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## oftheherd1 (Jan 24, 2017)

TieXiongJi said:


> Patience is a sliding scale. I am much more patient with beginners than an advanced student.
> When I am trying to understand truth, or become enlightened about a topic, I have to discuss the topic. Discussing Enlightenment and the process is more important than finding it then quitting. Just asking your opinion on the matter. *Saying, "I would say that if you think you should be having elaborate conversations about it, then you haven't found it." can be applied to any topic which you don't understand and have no path to understanding*.



For you perhaps.  Are you sure it is so for everyone?

*I would suggest you think that through some more.*


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## oftheherd1 (Jan 24, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I don't agree that only by a teacher can one find enlightenment. Some stumble upon it. Some find it through experience. Some find it through earnest meditation. Some through a teacher. The path is too individual to be predicted - it is only clear after the fact. None, that I know of, finds it through intellect.



First, I am not sure what enlightenment is.  I think the question has to be asked in a context.  But I suspect it is related to Gi. 

If a student asks me to teach him how to acquire and use Gi, what can I say?  I can only answer I can show him how I think I learned it, and that it probably isn't as mystical as some would like to think it is.  But I don't think there is any way I can teach how to acquire and use Gi. 

I may be able to guide, or lead, but never teach.  I think it is an individual path/thing.  I also think it is impossible to explain even what it may be unless I am talking to someone else who has acquired it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 24, 2017)

oftheherd1 said:


> First, I am not sure what enlightenment is.  I think the question has to be asked in a context.  But I suspect it is related to Gi.
> 
> If a student asks me to teach him how to acquire and use Gi, what can I say?  I can only answer I can show him how I think I learned it, and that it probably isn't as mystical as some would like to think it is.  But I don't think there is any way I can teach how to acquire and use Gi.
> 
> I may be able to guide, or lead, but never teach.  I think it is an individual path/thing.  I also think it is impossible to explain even what it may be unless I am talking to someone else who has acquired it.


I assume "Gi" is an alternate romanization of "Ki". (Otherwise, I assume you're talking about learning to use your uniform.)

And I agree. I could try defining enlightenment, and someone here would have a different defintion. I see no reason why both couldn't be accurate, because it's an experience, an internal thing. As such, it bears a different definition by each person, whether they've experienced it or not.

While I can teach a person to use what I refer to as "Ki", I also know that some of the things that were absolute light-igniters for me prove to be no help to them. Some people do it naturally, and others struggle for years with the concept. I'd say that's a reasonable analogy for enlightenment.


----------



## oftheherd1 (Jan 24, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I assume "Gi" is an alternate romanization of "Ki". (Otherwise, I assume you're talking about learning to use your uniform.)
> 
> And I agree. I could try defining enlightenment, and someone here would have a different defintion. I see no reason why both couldn't be accurate, because it's an experience, an internal thing. As such, it bears a different definition by each person, whether they've experienced it or not.
> 
> While I can teach a person to use what I refer to as "Ki", I also know that some of the things that were absolute light-igniters for me prove to be no help to them. Some people do it naturally, and others struggle for years with the concept. I'd say that's a reasonable analogy for enlightenment.



Nope, I wasn't referring to the uniform.    I have seen it with both spellings.  Pronounced, it sounds to me more like our English 'G' sound than our hard 'K' sound.  But I guess that is just me.  Regardless, this is the second or third time I have been called to task on this.  Maybe I just need to start using Ki instead of Gi here on MT.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Jan 24, 2017)

I have no idea what enlightenment is.  I only know about the Path, and only that in a very, very, limited way.

Personally, I would be wary of anyone who claimed to have achieved enlightenment.

"If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him."


----------



## TieXiongJi (Jan 24, 2017)

oftheherd1 said:


> Nope, I wasn't referring to the uniform.    I have seen it with both spellings.  Pronounced, it sounds to me more like our English 'G' sound than our hard 'K' sound.  But I guess that is just me.  Regardless, this is the second or third time I have been called to task on this.  Maybe I just need to start using Ki instead of Gi here on MT.


In Japanese, it is 'Ki' (pronounced the same as 'Key')
In Chinese, it is 'Qi' (pronounced the same a the first syllable of 'Chea-ter'
Another topic of interpretation. Some say it is equivalent to 'air' as you can't survive or perform any tasks without it. So qi/ki/air is essential to life.
Others go metaphysical on the matter, but I disagree with many interpretations due to my own experience.


----------



## TieXiongJi (Jan 24, 2017)

oftheherd1 said:


> For you perhaps.  Are you sure it is so for everyone?
> 
> *I would suggest you think that through some more.*



I approach all topics trying to understand them as much as possible.
When I bring up 'Enlightenment', I want to talk about that. If people dance around and say it is ineffable (like God, religion...), then I can't have a conversation with you as you have given up on investigation and understanding.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Jan 24, 2017)

TieXiongJi said:


> I approach all topics trying to understand them as much as possible.
> When I bring up 'Enlightenment', I want to talk about that. If people dance around and say it is ineffable (like God, religion...), then I can't have a conversation with you as you have given up on investigation and understanding.



Or perhaps enlightenment hides itself within the grasp of the person who no longer stretches forth his hand.


----------



## TieXiongJi (Jan 24, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> You kill it to eat it. Hunting enlightenment may kill it, too.
> 
> (Sounds cool, anyway.)


We approach all goals with different methods. Hunting game requires a set of skills and understanding if you hope to succeed.
Hunting enlightenment requires a different set of skills and very similar methods of getting to understanding.
To understand any truth, we must start from something true. Starting from a falsity can get you there, but the lie quickly undermines the truth.


----------



## TieXiongJi (Jan 24, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I have no idea what enlightenment is.  I only know about the Path, and only that in a very, very, limited way.
> 
> Personally, I would be wary of anyone who claimed to have achieved enlightenment.
> 
> "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him."


If no one has ever found it, then I guess we all have to keep searching. Jus


gpseymour said:


> Enlightenment is internal. I think it cannot be explained to another without some shared enlightenment. By that, I mean that there is not one enlightenment, but many areas in which one can be enlightened. If you share an area with someone (both having been enlightened in that area), then you have a common language of enlightenment from which to discuss the topic. If two people both understand enlightenment in many areas, they may be able to discuss it without a single shared area of enlightenment.



Every personal experience is internal. Your own love for anything else is completely internal, but it is as real to you as the skin on your body.
We can share our enlightenment on Martial Arts through these forums, Science through other forums.
Explaining your ideas to another person starts from a basic understanding or common idea. If we can't agree on what we are seeking, we definitely won't find it as a team.
Enlightenment could simply be Understanding and we are spinning our wheels discussing the topic any further.


----------



## TieXiongJi (Jan 24, 2017)

Buka said:


> A close friend of mine is Buddhist. Not your average guy who suddenly becomes a Buddhist, he spent seven years of his life in a Buddhist Monastery (is that the right word?) in Japan for seven years. So I e-mailed him, asked him how he would define "enlightenment".
> 
> His immediate response was En-lighten-ment: "to lighten up" ;-)"
> 
> ...



Well ****...
I feel like these 12 signs are very accurate since I reached my epiphany a few months ago. Once I truly understood that we are all 1, my appreciation of everything drastically improved. I want to understand other people instead of judging them. I am persistently happy and joyful.
I do disagree with the first point as I would say improving the world requires one to make things happen. Letting things happen got us Global Warming and Trump...


----------



## TieXiongJi (Jan 24, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> It is.
> 
> I don't think it can really be mapped or explained in straight-forward terms.  It is something that some people simply come to understand thru their life experiences and perhaps their own personality contributes.


Now we understand each other.
Thank you for not quitting the conversation.


----------



## Steve (Jan 24, 2017)




----------



## Bill Mattocks (Jan 24, 2017)

TieXiongJi said:


> If no one has ever found it, then I guess we all have to keep searching. Jus



I did not say no one has ever found enlightenment.  I said I would be wary of anyone who made the claim.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jan 24, 2017)

TieXiongJi said:


> We approach all goals with different methods. Hunting game requires a set of skills and understanding if you hope to succeed.
> Hunting enlightenment requires a different set of skills and very similar methods of getting to understanding.
> To understand any truth, we must start from something true. Starting from a falsity can get you there, but the lie quickly undermines the truth.


My point is that enlightenment, as I see it, escapes intellectual pursuit. Intellect applied to it appears to make it harder to reach. That's not to say you can't be intellectual and find enlightenment, but defining and categorizing (elements of intellect) bring us further from enlightenment. Thus, hunting may be an appropriate analogy for what you're doing, and may also be part of the frustration.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jan 24, 2017)

TieXiongJi said:


> If no one has ever found it, then I guess we all have to keep searching. Jus
> 
> 
> Every personal experience is internal. Your own love for anything else is completely internal, but it is as real to you as the skin on your body.
> ...


Ah, I see here you appear to be defining "enlightenment" to include things like mastery and understanding. I see those things as external to enlightenment. Not counter to it, but simply not part of it.


----------



## TieXiongJi (Jan 24, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Ah, I see here you appear to be defining "enlightenment" to include things like mastery and understanding. I see those things as external to enlightenment. Not counter to it, but simply not part of it.


My mother took me to her church a while ago.
The people I spoke with told me, "You are a seeker."
I thought to myself, "Great, that is my never ending endeavor." We must constantly seek truth or we will believe lies.
The only word to truly define 'enlightenment' is 'enlightenment'. Now we must define the details that make up the concept 'enlightenment' to be able to understand it.
Everything within existence has a fundamental base. Understanding everything starting from the most fundamental base is the only way to climb to the top and be able to say to yourself, "Now, I understand this."


----------



## hoshin1600 (Jan 24, 2017)

TieXiongJi said:


> I feel like these 12 signs are very accurate since I reached my epiphany a few months ago.


I thought I had an epiphany once....turned out it was just gas.


----------



## hoshin1600 (Jan 24, 2017)

TieXiongJi said:


> The only word to truly define 'enlightenment' is 'enlightenment'.


Um...no actually even enlightenment doesn't  define enlightenment.  The actual word is sanskrit, bodhi or you could use satori in Japanese. Enlightenment is an English word with multiple meanings. Different meanings to Different people.


----------



## TieXiongJi (Jan 24, 2017)

I just want to thank everyone for addressing this conversation seriously. My friends have trouble simply starting these types of conversations.
So thank you for giving me a place to have a back and forth about this. I feel I found enlightenment through the sum of all experiences, but martial arts and the concepts broached through training, practice and lectures really pushed me over the top.


----------



## TieXiongJi (Jan 24, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> Um...no actually even enlightenment doesn't  define enlightenment.  The actual word is sanskrit, bodhi or you could use satori in Japanese. Enlightenment is an English word with multiple meanings. Different meanings to Different people.


Well that is true with all language. We use words to convey ideas. The focus is the meaning of 'enlightenment', not the first word used to describe it.


----------



## Flying Crane (Jan 24, 2017)

TieXiongJi said:


> Now we understand each other.
> Thank you for not quitting the conversation.


Sometimes we do tend to poke a little fun at times, it seems to be necessary sometimes around here.  But that doesn't mean we aren't also seriously engaging the discussion.

Astro-physics tells us that, as Carl Sagan said so eloquently, "we are all star-stuff".

Every atom and particle that makes up ourselves and everything that we see and touch and know in the world and the universe, has been recycled over and over in the lives and deaths of countless stars in the universe.  the first stars were born out of hydrogen and helium and trace amounts of lithium, and nothing else.  All other element were created by nuclear fusion within those stars, and in the deaths of stars.  Including the material, carbon, which is a fundamental building block of you and I.

To me, understanding and recognizing that all things are thus connected to all things in the vastness of the universe, is something akin to enlightenment.  Your atoms and my atoms shared a past life in the depths of a star somewhere, long ago.

I know that is not what you are getting at, but in some ways it seems to me that there may be a link there.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Jan 24, 2017)

TieXiongJi said:


> Well ****...
> I feel like these 12 signs are very accurate since I reached my epiphany a few months ago. Once I truly understood that we are all 1, my appreciation of everything drastically improved. I want to understand other people instead of judging them. I am persistently happy and joyful.



"...once I reached my epiphany..."

I have said I don't know much about enlightenment.  But I suspect it doesn't have a lot to do with looking in mirrors.  With respect.


----------



## TieXiongJi (Jan 24, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Sometimes we do tend to poke a little fun at times, it seems to be necessary sometimes around here.  But that doesn't mean we aren't also seriously engaging the discussion.
> 
> Astro-physics tells us that, as Carl Sagan said so eloquently, "we are all star-stuff".
> 
> ...



That is a big part of what enlightenment means to me. I know that everything around me contributes to existence.
We are all the same and different because reality exists between the binary; 1 (success/perfection) and 0 (failure/folly). Once I 'got it', I was able to understand the dynamic interplay within a system and between multiple systems. It is incredibly difficult to explain other than through long, detailed explanations of the system(s).


----------



## TieXiongJi (Jan 24, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> "...once I reached my epiphany..."
> 
> I have said I don't know much about enlightenment.  But I suspect it doesn't have a lot to do with looking in mirrors.  With respect.


I agree. Digging deep within yourself helps you understand yourself and a bit about others, but gathering as many true facts about existence allows one to see the tapestry or to use an old phrase, see the forest for the trees and the trees within the forest.


----------



## Steve (Jan 24, 2017)

@hoshin1600 , you seem to have a pretty concrete idea of what you mean when you use the term.  Can you share that?  I'm very interested in getting this conversation grounded, and from my lay perspective, you seem to have some direct experience.  It seems to be a little out there so far...  a little too many phrases likely to be used on greeting cards.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Jan 24, 2017)

TieXiongJi said:


> I agree. Digging deep within yourself helps you understand yourself and a bit about others, but gathering as many true facts about existence allows one to see the tapestry or to use an old phrase, see the forest for the trees and the trees within the forest.



I suspect you missed my point.


----------



## Flying Crane (Jan 24, 2017)

TieXiongJi said:


> That is a big part of what enlightenment means to me. I know that everything around me contributes to existence.
> We are all the same and different because reality exists between the binary; 1 (success/perfection) and 0 (failure/folly). Once I 'got it', I was able to understand the dynamic interplay within a system and between multiple systems. It is incredibly difficult to explain other than through long, detailed explanations of the system(s).


In my opinion, enlightenment isn't just knowing things, tho knowing these kinds of things may help.

Perhaps it is a deep internalizing of this kind of knowledge which then guides ones state of being and mindset.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Jan 24, 2017)

A Zen student goes to a temple and asks how long it will take him to gain enlightenment if he joins the temple. 

"Ten years," says the Zen master. 

"Well, how about if I really work and double my effort?"

"Twenty years."


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## TieXiongJi (Jan 24, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> A Zen student goes to a temple and asks how long it will take him to gain enlightenment if he joins the temple.
> 
> "Ten years," says the Zen master.
> 
> ...


It is possible they are talking past each other. The student doesn't know what he means when he asks and the teacher can't explain the whole idea in 1 sentence.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Jan 24, 2017)

TieXiongJi said:


> It is possible they are talking past each other. The student doesn't know what he means when he asks and the teacher can't explain the whole idea in 1 sentence.



Oy.


----------



## Flying Crane (Jan 24, 2017)

TieXiongJi said:


> It is possible they are talking past each other. The student doesn't know what he means when he asks and the teacher can't explain the whole idea in 1 sentence.


Some things in life need to happen organically, and cannot be forced.  If you force it, then it takes longer.  Forcing it disrupts the natural process.

I am reminded of the book Zen and the art of Archery, wherein a German fellow practiced Kyudo in Japan.  He was struggling with the natural and relaxed method he needed to develop to properly release the arrow.

His sensei, in an attempt to figure out how to better convey the instructions to his student, read some psychology books of the like that this German fellow was a student of.  After doing so, he told his student that he is of the opinion that he (the student) may not be able to grasp the true kyudo technique, now that he (the sensei) has a better understanding of how the student's mind works.

Gotta be honest with you, I see a parallel here.


----------



## Steve (Jan 24, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Some things in life need to happen organically, and cannot be forced.  If you force it, then it takes longer.  Forcing it disrupts the natural process.
> 
> I am reminded of the book Zen and the art of Archery, wherein a German fellow practiced Kyudo in Japan.  He was struggling with the natural and relaxed method he needed to develop to properly release the arrow.
> 
> ...


Can you reach enlightenment in one lifetime?  I was under the impression that enlightenment is, in part at least, a function of reincarnation.


----------



## Jenna (Jan 24, 2017)

TieXiongJi said:


> I have been hunting for this elusive ENLIGHTENMENT since I heard the word when I was ~10 years old.
> I have studied philosophy (100's...). I have studied martial arts (at least 10 conflicting theories). I have studied science and engineering (focused on electrical, but never forgot that all disciplines stem from the same fundamental concepts).
> I have come up with this so far.
> 
> ...


Do you know what it is -like can you specify- about which you seek enlightenment.  Your concept of it seem perhaps a little nebulous or vague  Wishes x


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## Flying Crane (Jan 24, 2017)

Steve said:


> Can you reach enlightenment in one lifetime?  I was under the impression that enlightenment is, in part at least, a function of reincarnation.


I do not know.


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## TieXiongJi (Jan 24, 2017)

Jenna said:


> Do you know what it is -like can you specify- about which you seek enlightenment.  Your concept of it seem perhaps a little nebulous or vague  Wishes x



Well, the title of the thread is "What is Enlightenment?"
After years of studying the world around me, I came to the conclusion:
Everything is 1, everything is trying to become a better 1, and everything will avoid 0 as that is the end.

What is your answer to the question?


----------



## Flying Crane (Jan 24, 2017)

TieXiongJi said:


> Well, the title of the thread is "What is Enlightenment?"
> After years of studying the world around me, I came to the conclusion:
> Everything is 1, everything is trying to become a better 1, and everything will avoid 0 as that is the end.
> 
> What is your answer to the question?


Yeah, this business of trying to quantify everything as either 1or 0 is probably indicative of your difficulties.  The world doesn't really work that way.


----------



## TieXiongJi (Jan 24, 2017)

Steve said:


> Can you reach enlightenment in one lifetime?  I was under the impression that enlightenment is, in part at least, a function of reincarnation.


If it is based on reincarnation of the soul/mind, then I have to say, based on the current model of existence, there is no hope.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jan 24, 2017)

Steve said:


> Can you reach enlightenment in one lifetime?  I was under the impression that enlightenment is, in part at least, a function of reincarnation.


That is in one philosophy. I believe that full enlightenment (enlightenment in all areas of life) may be extraordinarily rare, if not unprecedented. However, a significant number (though a distinct minority) of people do find enlightenment in some area of their lives. This becomes an area where things just "work". They put forth effort in exactly the ways it is needed, without having to put a lot of effort into knowing what those areas are. It's not accidental, they just "get" that area of life so profoundly that the next step seems clear. They live on principles in that area of life, and cannot be disturbed there, even when things go badly, because even then they see what is next. If the person takes that enlightenment and uses it to see other areas of life, their enlightenment expands.

That's a poor description of my view, and I'm not sure it's possible to describe accurately.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jan 24, 2017)

TieXiongJi said:


> If it is based on reincarnation of the soul/mind, then I have to say, based on the current model of existence, there is no hope.


What do you mean by "model of existence"?


----------



## TieXiongJi (Jan 24, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Yeah, this business of trying to quantify everything as either 1or 0 is probably indicative of your difficulties.  The world doesn't really work that way.


You are correct. That is why I said existence is between the 0 and 1 because everything is in constant flux, will never quite reach 1 and will always end at 0. Everything is within this flux and we are all trying to reach perfection before we die.


----------



## Steve (Jan 24, 2017)

TieXiongJi said:


> Well, the title of the thread is "What is Enlightenment?"
> After years of studying the world around me, I came to the conclusion:
> Everything is 1, everything is trying to become a better 1, and everything will avoid 0 as that is the end.
> 
> What is your answer to the question?


Does pursuing 1 presume there is no 2?  Or 3?


----------



## Steve (Jan 24, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Yeah, this business of trying to quantify everything as either 1or 0 is probably indicative of your difficulties.  The world doesn't really work that way.


There is a reason binary logic is taught first.   It's the simplest and most accessible.


----------



## Flying Crane (Jan 24, 2017)

TieXiongJi said:


> You are correct. That is why I said existence is between the 0 and 1 because everything is in constant flux, will never quite reach 1 and will always end at 0. Everything is within this flux and we are all trying to reach perfection before we die.


Dump this whole concept.  Throw it away.  You are going down a dead end with this.


----------



## Flying Crane (Jan 24, 2017)

Steve said:


> There is a reason binary logic is taught first.   It's the simplest and most accessible.


It may have a place in writing computer code and whatnot, but not much elsewhere


----------



## TieXiongJi (Jan 24, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> What do you mean by "model of existence"?


Scientifically provable. Succinctly, Existence starts with X (I think it is the perfect balance between 0 and 1), then the Big Bang, then Stars, then Planets, then Life, then Life examines itself and the world, then we are here.


----------



## Steve (Jan 24, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> That is in one philosophy. I believe that full enlightenment (enlightenment in all areas of life) may be extraordinarily rare, if not unprecedented. However, a significant number (though a distinct minority) of people do find enlightenment in some area of their lives. This becomes an area where things just "work". They put forth effort in exactly the ways it is needed, without having to put a lot of effort into knowing what those areas are. It's not accidental, they just "get" that area of life so profoundly that the next step seems clear. They live on principles in that area of life, and cannot be disturbed there, even when things go badly, because even then they see what is next. If the person takes that enlightenment and uses it to see other areas of life, their enlightenment expands.
> 
> That's a poor description of my view, and I'm not sure it's possible to describe accurately.


Lol.  That sounds less like enlightenment and more like competence to me.


----------



## TieXiongJi (Jan 24, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Dump this whole concept.  Throw it away.  You are going down a dead end with this.


You clearly have an idea of Enlightenment. Could you explain your concept instead of telling me to burn everything and start over?
I am trying to incorporate your ideas and move forward, but we still haven't agreed on a basic answer to the question.


----------



## TieXiongJi (Jan 24, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Some things in life need to happen organically, and cannot be forced.  If you force it, then it takes longer.  Forcing it disrupts the natural process.
> 
> I am reminded of the book Zen and the art of Archery, wherein a German fellow practiced Kyudo in Japan.  He was struggling with the natural and relaxed method he needed to develop to properly release the arrow.
> 
> ...


Everything happens organically.
I am seeking truth. The German fellow is seeking a skill. His sensei has an idea of what Kyuudo means, but failed to transfer that knowledge to the student. Obviously they are talking past each other because they couldn't find the point where they agree and move forward from there, other than "This is a Bow. This is an Arrow. Knock the arrow, pull the bow, relax, focus, relax, aim, relax, release."


----------



## Steve (Jan 24, 2017)

TieXiongJi said:


> Scientifically provable. Succinctly, Existence starts with X (I think it is the perfect balance between 0 and 1), then the Big Bang, then Stars, then Planets, then Life, then Life examines itself and the world, then we are here.


 I have three things to say.  A, discussions about abstract concepts are unconstructive when they remain abstract.   And 2, this presupposes that we have a shared understanding of the term.


----------



## Flying Crane (Jan 24, 2017)

TieXiongJi said:


> You clearly have an idea of Enlightenment. Could you explain your concept instead of telling me to burn everything and start over?
> I am trying to incorporate your ideas and move forward, but we still haven't agreed on a basic answer to the question.


I don't know how to tell you much more than I already have in this thread.  

I believe you are looking for concrete answers to something that has no concrete answers. It's a little bit like if you ask me, what do you feel like doing today? And expecting my answer to be somewhere between one and ten.  It just does not work that way. 

I think the previous studies you have mentioned may have conditioned you to view the world in away that is not compatible with any understanding of enlightenment.  You expect the world to operate in ways that are fully measureable and predictable.  While that can be true for some things, for others it is not.

You are trying to cram a square peg into a round hole.


----------



## TieXiongJi (Jan 24, 2017)

Steve said:


> I have three things to say.  A, discussions about abstract concepts are unconstructive when they remain abstract.   And 2, this presupposes that we have a shared understanding of the term.


1) Agree. I am trying to nail people down to a primary idea.
2) Add to or Correct the idea so we can share understanding.
3) Well, that is just your opinion, man.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jan 24, 2017)

Steve said:


> There is a reason binary logic is taught first.   It's the simplest and most accessible.


It's also the furthest from reality in everyday existence.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jan 24, 2017)

TieXiongJi said:


> Scientifically provable. Succinctly, Existence starts with X (I think it is the perfect balance between 0 and 1), then the Big Bang, then Stars, then Planets, then Life, then Life examines itself and the world, then we are here.


That feels like a lot of pieces tossed together. What does "scientifically provable" have to do with "Life examines itself"? And how does any of that explain what a "model of existence" is?


----------



## Steve (Jan 24, 2017)

TieXiongJi said:


> 1) Agree. I am trying to nail people down to a primary idea.
> 2) Add to or Correct the idea so we can share understanding.
> 3) Well, that is just your opinion, man.


1.  You first.  
2. I have.  I (and others) aren't. Responsible if you don't understand or recognize that you are getting exactly what you're asking for.  
And 3.


----------



## Jenna (Jan 24, 2017)

TieXiongJi said:


> Well, the title of the thread is "What is Enlightenment?"
> After years of studying the world around me, I came to the conclusion:
> Everything is 1, everything is trying to become a better 1, and everything will avoid 0 as that is the end.
> 
> What is your answer to the question?


I would tentatively agree with you. At least in part. You have studied the world around you for years and concluded that everything is 1?  

I would ask of you, it being true what you said, that everything is 1, then who or what are you within that?


----------



## TieXiongJi (Jan 24, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> I don't know how to tell you much more than I already have in this thread.
> 
> I believe you are looking for concrete answers to something that has no concrete answers. It's a little bit like if you ask me, what do you feel like doing today? And expecting my answer to be somewhere between one and ten.  It just does not work that way.
> 
> ...


I agree with the first part. All of my studies have led me to a point where I understand many things and ideas. I have had multiple people tell me what Enlightenment means to them, but they never agree.
The world does work in fully measurable ways as long as you have the ability to measure. The current state will change; that is always true. Prediction is the idea of the next state which we constantly use every moment.
It is quite simple to give you a vast list of things that are measurable and predictable. Could you possibly tell me what thing is not measurable or predictable?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jan 24, 2017)

Steve said:


> Lol.  That sounds less like enlightenment and more like competence to me.


It's beyond that. For instance, when someone is enlightened in relationships, they make each next decision because it is the right one. They know it is the right one, and they trust in that knowledge. They know even when the outcome shouldn't actually be knowable. They can't always define why they know, or even what it is they know. But they do know. When something in that area of life isn't working, they aren't frustrated by it, because even then they know the right next step. Even if that step is a painful one, they take it without fear and without hesitation because it is simply the right next step. They enjoy their relationships (even those with folks who aren't good at relationships and who are being difficult). They are never unsure of themselves in that area. I'm unsure whether enlightenment can be lost, or if those who seem to have had it and lost it were close, but never quite made it.

See how poorly this comes into words? It sounds clinical and emotionless at times, but it's not.

Here's the comparison to competence. If someone is highly competent at something, they will make mistakes, and will be able to fix them. They sometimes get frustrated by what isn't working. They understand the topic of their expertise. They do "get it", but mostly on an intellectual level.

You might find some fluidity in my attempts to explain the idea that's in my mind as I try to put it into words that both explain what I mean and make sense to you. That likely either means I'm more enlightened, or that I have a very weak idea of what it is. I tend to think it's the latter.


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## TieXiongJi (Jan 24, 2017)

Steve said:


> 1.  You first.
> 2. I have.  I (and others) aren't. Responsible if you don't understand or recognize that you are getting exactly what you're asking for.
> And 3.


1) Everything is 1, everything is trying to become a better 1, and everything will avoid 0 as that is the end. -This true statement allows me to understand how System A works, then how System B works with System A and so on.
2) I think you are right. Maybe nobody knows...
3) Totally, brother.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 24, 2017)

TieXiongJi said:


> Could you possibly tell me what thing is not measurable or predictable?


Love.
Hate.
Joy.


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## TieXiongJi (Jan 24, 2017)

Jenna said:


> I would tentatively agree with you. At least in part. You have studied the world around you for years and concluded that everything is 1?
> 
> I would ask of you, it being true what you said, that everything is 1, then who or what are you within that?


I understand that I am a human, living within the American society, which is part of the Human society, which only exists because of everything else that came before.


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## Steve (Jan 24, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> It's beyond that. For instance, when someone is enlightened in relationships, they make each next decision because it is the right one. They know it is the right one, and they trust in that knowledge. They know even when the outcome shouldn't actually be knowable. They can't always define why they know, or even what it is they know. But they do know. When something in that area of life isn't working, they aren't frustrated by it, because even then they know the right next step. Even if that step is a painful one, they take it without fear and without hesitation because it is simply the right next step. They enjoy their relationships (even those with folks who aren't good at relationships and who are being difficult). They are never unsure of themselves in that area. I'm unsure whether enlightenment can be lost, or if those who seem to have had it and lost it were close, but never quite made it.
> 
> See how poorly this comes into words? It sounds clinical and emotionless at times, but it's not.
> 
> ...



When you talk about relationships, don't know.   I don't think enlightenment is the right term.    I mean, reading your description above sounds like familiarity, trust and commitment.   But all of these are contingent upon reciprocal trust and commitment.

You're describing a feeling of enlightenment, but that isn't the same.   It's like the feeling of safety vs actually being safe.   


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 24, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Love.
> Hate.
> Joy.


@TieXiongJi  - care to fill in what it is you disagree with about that list?


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## TieXiongJi (Jan 24, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Love.
> Hate.
> Joy.


Emotions are measurable by the subject's experience.
We all know that emotions are the result of brain chemicals and the dynamic network of your brain. Developing a brain scan to determine relative levels of love for your partner vs your parents vs your kids vs your dog is very possible. Just have to find a way to make it relative to numbers.
Same could be done for Hate, Joy, Beauty, Disgust...
Got another?


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## Flying Crane (Jan 24, 2017)

TieXiongJi said:


> 1) Agree. I am trying to nail people down to a primary idea.



See?  You are trying to force something that may not be forceable.  That is your first mistake.

You want to measure enlightenment.  It is not measureable.
You want enlightenment to conform to some quick and easy talking points. It doesn't.

You mentioned climate change and Trump in an earlier post.  Ok, this is not a forum where debating politics is allowed so I won't do that.  However, I will simply ask you, have you noticed how politicians try to sway public opinion with highly charged talking points?  What is wrong with that, is that the issues are always far too complex to reduce them to easy talking points.  Trying to do so ignores that complexity and results in a very seriously misleading message.  It becomes a blatant lie.  

I am not questioning your intentions, but simply point out that you may be kind of doing the same thing.  You want to nail something down here, but the issue is too nuanced and complex to be nailed down.  This isn't something that can be summed up with easy talking points.

The fact that you are trying to do so tells me that your very approach and the assumptions you make on how to examine this, are simply wrong.

This has to do with a state of mind interacting with ones perceived and actual reality of life, flavored by life experiences, education, desires, lack of desires, etc.  there is no mathematical equation that can describe this.  But I feel like that is what you are looking for.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 24, 2017)

Steve said:


> When you talk about relationships, don't know.   I don't think enlightenment is the right term.    I mean, reading your description above sounds like familiarity, trust and commitment.   But all of these are contingent upon reciprocal trust and commitment.
> 
> You're describing a feeling of enlightenment, but that isn't the same.   It's like the feeling of safety vs actually being safe.
> 
> ...


It sounds like you're referring to a single relationship, though. I'm speaking of someone who has those qualities across all their relationships.

And I am referring to more than a feeling. It's a pervasive ability, across an entire area, to take what you already understand and use that to understand what should not be readily understandable.

You know what, I'm going to drop this line. I'm not even making sense to myself anymore, Steve. This is one of those topics I just don't communicate well in asynchronous space.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 24, 2017)

TieXiongJi said:


> Emotions are measurable by the subject's experience.
> We all know that emotions are the result of brain chemicals and the dynamic network of your brain. Developing a brain scan to determine relative levels of love for your partner vs your parents vs your kids vs your dog is very possible. Just have to find a way to make it relative to numbers.
> Same could be done for Hate, Joy, Beauty, Disgust...
> Got another?


No, you cannot accurately measure these things numerically, even if you are measuring brain chemical secretions.  Way too many variables that could change the measurement from one moment to the next, even if the underlying emotion does not change.

You keep looking for ways to assign a numerical value to things that have no business being measured in that way.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 24, 2017)

TieXiongJi said:


> Emotions are measurable by the subject's experience.
> We all know that emotions are the result of brain chemicals and the dynamic network of your brain. Developing a brain scan to determine relative levels of love for your partner vs your parents vs your kids vs your dog is very possible. Just have to find a way to make it relative to numbers.
> Same could be done for Hate, Joy, Beauty, Disgust...
> Got another?


Actually, no. Thus far, we have found measurable elements of emotion, but two people can experience deep love and produce different levels of those things we measure. The experience is not measurable, because each person experiences it differently. Beauty is equally unmeasurable, if you include all that we find "beautiful". And the experience of it can be measured only in spikes (waves, transmitters, etc.), which will not show when there's a lasting experience of beauty.

None of those can be reduced to numbers.


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## Steve (Jan 24, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> It sounds like you're referring to a single relationship, though. I'm speaking of someone who has those qualities across all their relationships.
> 
> And I am referring to more than a feeling. It's a pervasive ability, across an entire area, to take what you already understand and use that to understand what should not be readily understandable.
> 
> You know what, I'm going to drop this line. I'm not even making sense to myself anymore, Steve. This is one of those topics I just don't communicate well in asynchronous space.



No problem.  Just one last comment.   I did focus on one relationship.  My rationale is that if you can't manage it with one, you can't with many.   If tha makes sense.  


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## TieXiongJi (Jan 24, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Actually, no. Thus far, we have found measurable elements of emotion, but two people can experience deep love and produce different levels of those things we measure. The experience is not measurable, because each person experiences it differently. Beauty is equally unmeasurable, if you include all that we find "beautiful". And the experience of it can be measured only in spikes (waves, transmitters, etc.), which will not show when there's a lasting experience of beauty.
> 
> None of those can be reduced to numbers.


Never forget the brilliant revelation by Einstein, "Everything is Relative."
All measurements are relative to something.
Love is measurable when you yourself compare the severity relative to all of the people in your life. There is 1 person that you love the least and 1 person you love the most. Set Least to 0, Most to 1, then everything in between is now measurable.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Take it internally and you will recognize how a single art piece is the least beautiful and another is the most beautiful, then measure everything else in between by those two references.
Objectively measurable only comes after gathering enough samples to a single template which references everything relative to those measurements. Then we can create the Beauty equation just like Netwton solved the Gravity equation by making it relative to objects and the Earth. 9.81...m/s^2 is an average, not a real number as gravity is completely relative to the objects being modeled.


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## TieXiongJi (Jan 24, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> See?  You are trying to force something that may not be forceable.  That is your first mistake.
> 
> You want to measure enlightenment.  It is not measureable.
> You want enlightenment to conform to some quick and easy talking points. It doesn't.
> ...


I don't need to measure Enlightenment. I just want to understand it.
I can't understand Love without recognizing my mother vs an ant. I love my mother and the ant. I experience heavy emotional resistance just thinking about hurting her, but I experience little resistance when the ant is in my kitchen; the ant always loses.

Maybe we won't agree and that is just fine. I would never force someone to continue a conversation they do not wish to continue.

I say it is measurable, you say it isn't. Nothing wrong in that.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 24, 2017)

TieXiongJi said:


> I don't need to measure Enlightenment. I just want to understand it.
> I can't understand Love without recognizing my mother vs an ant. I love my mother and the ant. I experience heavy emotional resistance just thinking about hurting her, but I experience little resistance when the ant is in my kitchen; the ant always loses.
> 
> Maybe we won't agree and that is just fine. I would never force someone to continue a conversation they do not wish to continue.
> ...


You say you don't need to measure it, but you also say it is measureable.  Would you elaborate on your message a bit?


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## oaktree (Jan 24, 2017)

Hi Steve just wanted to address your question about achieving enlightenment in one's lifetime, from a Buddhist perspective yes one can achieve this. In different schools there is disagreement about levels of obtainment one can reach in one's lifetime in regards to samadhi and each doctrine of course says their sect has the highest form of samadhi leading to enlightenment.


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## TieXiongJi (Jan 24, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> You say you don't need to measure it, but you also say it is measureable.  Would you elaborate on your message a bit?


My goal is understand this concept of 'enlightenment'. I can easily claim that I already understand it with my initial definition. Instead of simply agreeing with myself and telling everyone, "I get it and can explain it", I prefer to provide my answer and let others tell me their answer so I could possibly understand why they define it in their way.
But as soon as one says, "It is ineffable and talking about it is pointless", I am forced to end the conversation.
It could be measurable or not, but if no one knows what it is or can't provide at least a measurable path (similar to debating the efficacy of Alcoholics Anonymous vs other anti-addiction programs), then what is there to talk about?

I am glad that Hoshin1600 told us his path; Zen Buddhism. Now I have one answer about a measurable path.

If you feel you achieved enlightenment now or in the past, I want to hear your story and how you got from Not Enlightened to Enlightened.


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## TieXiongJi (Jan 24, 2017)

oaktree said:


> Hi Steve just wanted to address your question about achieving enlightenment in one's lifetime, from a Buddhist perspective yes one can achieve this. In different schools there is disagreement about levels of obtainment one can reach in one's lifetime in regards to samadhi and each doctrine of course says their sect has the highest form of samadhi leading to enlightenment.


Is the doctrine difference akin to Christian sects which say everyone else is wrong and going to Hell?


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## oaktree (Jan 24, 2017)

TieXiongJi said:


> Is the doctrine difference akin to Christian sects which say everyone else is wrong and going to Hell?


I have not heard any sects say that about each other.  Most priests and monks understand that Dharma is Dharma just different means.


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## TieXiongJi (Jan 24, 2017)

oaktree said:


> I have not heard any sects say that about each other.  Most priests and monks understand that Dharma is Dharma just different means.


I am glad they are not so fervently sure about their own position to confidently talk down to others. It is possible they have a better understanding of Enlightenment than the Westboro Baptists...


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## oaktree (Jan 24, 2017)

TieXiongJi said:


> I am glad they are not so fervently sure about their own position to confidently talk down to others. It is possible they have a better understanding of Enlightenment than the Westboro Baptists...


It is considered an offense to say something bad about someone who has taken vows. Just like the saying "if you see the Buddha kill him" is considered  one of the five cardinal sins in Buddhism to commit if you shed blood from a Buddha.


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## Steve (Jan 24, 2017)

TieXiongJi said:


> I am glad they are not so fervently sure about their own position to confidently talk down to others. It is possible they have a better understanding of Enlightenment than the Westboro Baptists...


Do you think the Westboro Baptists are reasonable representatives of Christians at large?  Why bring them up?

I have to be honest.  I've read many posts now from you and from others.  My frank perception here is that you are a guy who just learned something you think is groovy.  And you're trying to explain it to others before you really understand it yourself.  You're trying to hide the superficial nature of your understanding through doublespeak.  And you kind of seem like you think you're smarter than the gang here.  Now, chances are you're smarter than me.  I'm just an average guy who's been around long enough to learn a thing or two.  But some of the guys here are friggin smart.

So, my recommendation to you is to presume you don't know what you're talking about, ask some questions.  And instead of trying to dazzle us all with your brilliance, actually participate in an honest conversation.  I think it's clear from the responses that there are some people here interested in the subject, but (and I may be wrong), I don't think I'm the only one who doubts both your depth of understanding AND your sincerity in this discussion.

I don't know whether the above is a 1 or a 0.  Let's call it .78...  closer to 1 than not.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 24, 2017)

TieXiongJi said:


> Never forget the brilliant revelation by Einstein, "Everything is Relative."
> All measurements are relative to something.
> Love is measurable when you yourself compare the severity relative to all of the people in your life. There is 1 person that you love the least and 1 person you love the most. Set Least to 0, Most to 1, then everything in between is now measurable.
> Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Take it internally and you will recognize how a single art piece is the least beautiful and another is the most beautiful, then measure everything else in between by those two references.
> Objectively measurable only comes after gathering enough samples to a single template which references everything relative to those measurements. Then we can create the Beauty equation just like Netwton solved the Gravity equation by making it relative to objects and the Earth. 9.81...m/s^2 is an average, not a real number as gravity is completely relative to the objects being modeled.


There is no beauty equation.  Maybe that comment was tongue-in-cheek, but no amount of data collection will yield a trustworthy Beauty Equation.


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## TieXiongJi (Jan 24, 2017)

Steve said:


> Do you think the Westboro Baptists are reasonable representatives of Christians at large?  Why bring them up?
> 
> I have to be honest.  I've read many posts now from you and from others.  My frank perception here is that you are a guy who just learned something you think is groovy.  And you're trying to explain it to others before you really understand it yourself.  You're trying to hide the superficial nature of your understanding through doublespeak.  And you kind of seem like you think you're smarter than the gang here.  Now, chances are you're smarter than me.  I'm just an average guy who's been around long enough to learn a thing or two.  But some of the guys here are friggin smart.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the honesty.
I have had this problem with my IRL friends. While speaking to them in person, they feel I am talking down to them. It couldn't be further from the truth. I just want a straight forward answer about these ideas. Giving me wishy-washy descriptions of how the concept is ineffable or too difficult to express just makes me push harder because there is an answer in your head when I ask, "What is Enlightenment?"
Indefinite answers are useless when describing Gravity. They are useless when describing Money. They are useless when describing Love. Poetry can beautiful and truthful, but if I don't get a true answer, I have to push harder or walk away.

I am sorry if I offended anyone. I am not coming at this with a definite answer. I am simply laying out my current answer, allowing others to comment on it while inviting their alternative answers.


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## TieXiongJi (Jan 24, 2017)

Steve said:


> Do you think the Westboro Baptists are reasonable representatives of Christians at large?  Why bring them up?
> 
> I have to be honest.  I've read many posts now from you and from others.  My frank perception here is that you are a guy who just learned something you think is groovy.  And you're trying to explain it to others before you really understand it yourself.  You're trying to hide the superficial nature of your understanding through doublespeak.  And you kind of seem like you think you're smarter than the gang here.  Now, chances are you're smarter than me.  I'm just an average guy who's been around long enough to learn a thing or two.  But some of the guys here are friggin smart.
> 
> ...


And of course the Westboro Baptists are not the best representative of Christianity IMO, but they believe they are 100% correct and everyone else is wrong. I aim to never think this way. I know everything is indefinite and we can only know as far as we can actually prove, and even that can be questioned.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 24, 2017)

TieXiongJi said:


> And of course the Westboro Baptists are not the best representative of Christianity IMO, but they believe they are 100% correct and everyone else is wrong. I aim to never think this way. I know everything is indefinite and we can only know as far as we can actually prove, and even that can be questioned.


I would say the westboro baptists have a lot in common with the Catholics.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 24, 2017)

TieXiongJi said:


> Thanks for the honesty.
> I have had this problem with my IRL friends. While speaking to them in person, they feel I am talking down to them. It couldn't be further from the truth. I just want a straight forward answer about these ideas. Giving me wishy-washy descriptions of how the concept is ineffable or too difficult to express just makes me push harder because there is an answer in your head when I ask, "What is Enlightenment?"
> Indefinite answers are useless when describing Gravity. They are useless when describing Money. They are useless when describing Love. Poetry can beautiful and truthful, but if I don't get a true answer, I have to push harder or walk away.
> 
> I am sorry if I offended anyone. I am not coming at this with a definite answer. I am simply laying out my current answer, allowing others to comment on it while inviting their alternative answers.


I don't think these are wishy-washy answers.  I think this is a subject without clear and concrete answers. That is not the same thing.


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## TieXiongJi (Jan 24, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> I don't think these are wishy-washy answers.  I think this is a subject without clear and concrete answers. That is not the same thing.


Nothing wrong with that, but we must end the conversation if we are at impasse and can't find where we agree.
We can't start the conversation until we understand our mutual starting position. We must start from agreement or we talk past each other.


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## Steve (Jan 24, 2017)

One comment regarding relativity.  I will agree that everything is measured relative to something else, but the criteria by which something is measured can remain subjective, even if the scale is not.  The measurement is, by definition, establishing a scale that is concrete.


TieXiongJi said:


> Thanks for the honesty.
> I have had this problem with my IRL friends. While speaking to them in person, they feel I am talking down to them. It couldn't be further from the truth. I just want a straight forward answer about these ideas. Giving me wishy-washy descriptions of how the concept is ineffable or too difficult to express just makes me push harder because there is an answer in your head when I ask, "What is Enlightenment?"
> Indefinite answers are useless when describing Gravity. They are useless when describing Money. They are useless when describing Love. Poetry can beautiful and truthful, but if I don't get a true answer, I have to push harder or walk away.
> 
> I am sorry if I offended anyone. I am not coming at this with a definite answer. I am simply laying out my current answer, allowing others to comment on it while inviting their alternative answers.


You haven't offended me.  And I don't feel like you're talking down to me.  I honestly feel like you're kind of bluffing a little. 

Good poetry doesn't describe love; it demonstrates love.  And by understanding the demonstration, we better understand the abstract.  As a practical matter, I am still married after 23 years because I demonstrate my love to my wife through acts of love.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 24, 2017)

TieXiongJi said:


> Nothing wrong with that, but we must end the conversation if we are at impasse and can't find where we agree.
> We can't start the conversation until we understand our mutual starting position. We must start from agreement or we talk past each other.


That's fine, if you feel you aren't getting the answers you are seeking.  I just wanted to point out the difference in the perception in the answers: wushu-washy vs. no clear answers exist.  Some people might take exception to their answers being called wishy-washy


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## Tgace (Jan 24, 2017)

I don't think it can be described.

It would be like me trying to describe a color to you with words...and science has shown we all see/colors in different ways as it is.

Any communication is me trying to use symbols to pass a message/concept along to you. The actual "thing" has to be experienced...not explained. I'm not a good enough "explainer" and you may not be a good enough "understander".


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## TieXiongJi (Jan 24, 2017)

Tgace said:


> I don't think it can be described.
> 
> It would be like me trying to describe a color to you with words...and science has shown we all see/colors in different ways as it is.
> 
> Any communication is me trying to use symbols to pass a message/concept along to you. The actual "thing" has to be experienced...not explained. I'm not a good enough "explainer" and you may not be a good enough "understander".


That is the eternal problem of all discovery. We make a discovery through 1000s of hours of struggle and when we finally have it, now we want to share how we got there.


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## Steve (Jan 24, 2017)

Out of curiosity, does anyone here believe himself or herself to be "enlightened?"


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 24, 2017)

oaktree said:


> It is considered an offense to say something bad about someone who has taken vows. Just like the saying "if you see the Buddha kill him" is considered  one of the five cardinal sins in Buddhism to commit if you shed blood from a Buddha.


 hi Oaktree, since you seem knowledgeable in this i wanted to address my usage of the " kill the Buddha" comment.
i use it as a phrase to engage the thought of letting go of convention.  there is sometimes a tendency to adhere to a strict concept of what is and what is not.  my usage is aimed at pointing out that once you "get it" you dont need to continue on the same quest and path. you can let go.  there is another saying that Bruce Lee used to point to the same concept " once you get across the river you dont need to carry the boat around on your back"


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## oaktree (Jan 24, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> hi Oaktree, since you seem knowledgeable in this i wanted to address my usage of the " kill the Buddha" comment.
> i use it as a phrase to engage the thought of letting go of convention.  there is sometimes a tendency to adhere to a strict concept of what is and what is not.  my usage is aimed at pointing out that once you "get it" you dont need to continue on the same quest and path. you can let go.  there is another saying that Bruce Lee used to point to the same concept " once you get across the river you dont need to carry the boat around on your back"


I think the use of the term could have a misunderstanding that killing a Buddha is alright which  is a clear violation.


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 24, 2017)

Steve said:


> @hoshin1600 , you seem to have a pretty concrete idea of what you mean when you use the term.  Can you share that?  I'm very interested in getting this conversation grounded, and from my lay perspective, you seem to have some direct experience.  It seems to be a little out there so far...  a little too many phrases likely to be used on greeting cards.



i dont think there is a way to rein this conversation in.  it would be like herding cats.
Tie Xiong Ji seems to be on his own path and in his own universe,  Im not really interested in feeding that.

but i will answer you even tho i thought i already answered. i guess i wasnt very clear in my answer.  i wont use the word enlightenment because that seems to mean all kinds of things to people here and at that point the conversation is pointless.

satori or kensho is the Japanese word used to label the experience that the man Siddhartha Gautama attained while sitting in meditation.  after some time he created Buddhism as a path for others to attain the same experience.  so logically the next question that needs to be answered is, what defining qualities describe that experience.  i will refer you to Buka's post.
there is a difference between the outward description and the inward qualities of the experience.  so i use the familiar concept of romantic love.  the outward description is that love is an emotion.   the experience itself while it can be described cannot replace or even come close to the actual experience.   try explaining romantic love to an 8 year old who thinks , boys are icky and girls have cooties.  any verbal analogy will always fall short.  "_you get sweaty palms,  you get butterflies in your stomach, its like a warm cozy blanket"   _
Satori however is not an emotion. which leads me to explain it with western science (which a traditional Zen practitioner will never do)  In Zen there is a practice or a process of training.  everything is controlled and regulated from how you eat, to how you poop.  Steve Jobs had a habit of wearing the same style shirt every day, a black turtle neck.  he said it allowed his brain the freedom to think about other things.  so this is the purpose of  why Zen training controlls everything.  so there is a process to the training. this process has the effect of re wiring the brain.  it really does change the neural pathways of the brain.  Siddhartha through his training changed the way his brain wiring worked. this changes how stimuli is percieved in the brain and how that stimuli is processed.  this changes the way the world and his existance is perceived. how he sees the world.  today using brain scans we can see that the brain of psychopaths is very different than that of a normal person.
Psychopaths' Brains Show Differences in Structure and Function
people while on the drug LSD have been able to taste colors.  it changes the way the brain works.  the difference here is that satori is not as dramatic and not caused by inducing chemicals into the system but rather through will and action. (you also dont have to worry about giant spiders with dead babies hanging from their mouths)
In Rinzai Zen training there is a tool called a Koan. it is a riddle in the form of a poem.  these koans are  carefully constructed linquistic structures that are designed to short circuit rational thought.  the Zen master uses these riddles to gage your answers.  he can tell by your answer if you are using the same common thought neural paths or are thinking using satori. the way the brain processes the riddle will have an effect on how you answer. once you get your first one correct the following riddles get progressively easier because you are strengthening the neural pathways.

i should note some of the comments in this thread are confusing the religious aspects and the pure experience of satori.  reincarnation has nothing to do with satori in the physical sense but Hinduism and Buddhism as a religion has a doctrine that satori is a path or a pre-requisite of escaping reincarnation.
 i hope this helps.


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 24, 2017)

to 


oaktree said:


> I think the use of the term could have a misunderstanding that killing a Buddha is alright which  is a clear violation.


Buddhist law says to kill anything is a violation, so here we have a redundancy.  if it offends you, my apologies.  but we are discussing concepts and in a philosopical discussion.  killing is a moral dilemma but i dont think anyone reading this  is going to go out looking for Buddha with a knife.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 24, 2017)

As has been said many times, the map is not the territory.

You may measure, but you may not be measuring what you seem to think you are measuring.

In any case, I'll bow out now. I know what game you play at. It isn't nice, and I'm not interested. Goodbye.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 24, 2017)

Steve said:


> No problem.  Just one last comment.   I did focus on one relationship.  My rationale is that if you can't manage it with one, you can't with many.   If tha makes sense.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


It completely makes sense. My only point about that was that one relationship - or even several - may be competency. Someone with an enlightened approach to relationships would be good at handling all of them - even the bad ones - without regret or stress.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 24, 2017)

TieXiongJi said:


> Never forget the brilliant revelation by Einstein, "Everything is Relative."
> All measurements are relative to something.
> Love is measurable when you yourself compare the severity relative to all of the people in your life. There is 1 person that you love the least and 1 person you love the most. Set Least to 0, Most to 1, then everything in between is now measurable.
> Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Take it internally and you will recognize how a single art piece is the least beautiful and another is the most beautiful, then measure everything else in between by those two references.
> Objectively measurable only comes after gathering enough samples to a single template which references everything relative to those measurements. Then we can create the Beauty equation just like Netwton solved the Gravity equation by making it relative to objects and the Earth. 9.81...m/s^2 is an average, not a real number as gravity is completely relative to the objects being modeled.


That's not really measurement. That's putting things in ranks. If I have more of X than you do, that still doesn't tell us how much X I have. 

The point about beauty is that there is no universal template. Things I find beautiful someone else will not. This is even applicable to individuals (someone I find beautiful, you  may not). So, we could estimate someone's average apparent beauty to others, but we can't measure their absolute beauty - that is something that changes depending upon who the viewer is.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 24, 2017)

TieXiongJi said:


> My goal is understand this concept of 'enlightenment'. I can easily claim that I already understand it with my initial definition. Instead of simply agreeing with myself and telling everyone, "I get it and can explain it", I prefer to provide my answer and let others tell me their answer so I could possibly understand why they define it in their way.
> But as soon as one says, "It is ineffable and talking about it is pointless", I am forced to end the conversation.
> It could be measurable or not, but if no one knows what it is or can't provide at least a measurable path (similar to debating the efficacy of Alcoholics Anonymous vs other anti-addiction programs), then what is there to talk about?
> 
> ...


All the different answers are indicative of the problem in seeking a measurable path. There's not a single target, so you can't measure the way to get there. Enlightenment is at least partly defined by the person who experiences it - perhaps entirely. At the very least, the path and experience is somewhat different for every single person, which makes measurement irrelevant, at best.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 24, 2017)

TieXiongJi said:


> I am glad they are not so fervently sure about their own position to confidently talk down to others. It is possible they have a better understanding of Enlightenment than the Westboro Baptists...


Almost certainly.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 24, 2017)

TieXiongJi said:


> Thanks for the honesty.
> I have had this problem with my IRL friends. While speaking to them in person, they feel I am talking down to them. It couldn't be further from the truth. I just want a straight forward answer about these ideas. Giving me wishy-washy descriptions of how the concept is ineffable or too difficult to express just makes me push harder because there is an answer in your head when I ask, "What is Enlightenment?"
> Indefinite answers are useless when describing Gravity. They are useless when describing Money. They are useless when describing Love. Poetry can beautiful and truthful, but if I don't get a true answer, I have to push harder or walk away.
> 
> I am sorry if I offended anyone. I am not coming at this with a definite answer. I am simply laying out my current answer, allowing others to comment on it while inviting their alternative answers.


Part of your issue may be in asking everyone that question. If I go around and ask a bunch of people (even here on MT) what Nihon Goshin Aikido is, I'm unlikely to get any accurate answers. If I ask people who have studied NGA to a certain point, I'll get some disparate answers, but all will contain a kernel of truth.

So, asking "What is enlightenment?" of people who haven't really given time to trying to understand the concept would be like me asking you to define NGA.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 24, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> I would say the westboro baptists have a lot in common with the Catholics.


Not with the Catholics I know.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 24, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> wushu-washy


Wushu-washy... Which form is that in?


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 24, 2017)

Steve said:


> Out of curiosity, does anyone here believe himself or herself to be "enlightened?"


I've had moments where I experienced what I define as "enlightenment". Very few of them. Outside of those transient moments, I find myself always far from enlightenment.


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## Tgace (Jan 25, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I've had moments where I experienced what I define as "enlightenment". Very few of them. Outside of those transient moments, I find myself always far from enlightenment.



Ditto.

I've had flashes...typically in situations when I was outdoors for long periods (hunting, camping, climbing)...that I believe were brief moments of it. Never been able to access that moment at will, or for long (if enlightenment it actually was).


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## Balrog (Jan 25, 2017)

TieXiongJi said:


> I have been hunting for this elusive ENLIGHTENMENT since I heard the word when I was ~10 years old.


Lose 20 pounds.  You will have been enlightened.

No need to thank me, glad to be of service.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 25, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Not with the Catholics I know.


With regard to believing they have the TRUTH and nobody else does.

Beyond that, I wouldnt know.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 25, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Wushu-washy... Which form is that in?


That's called goddam auto-correct.


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## TieXiongJi (Jan 25, 2017)

I continued my research outside Martial Talk.

Definitions from Webster
noun
1. the act of enlightening.
2. the state of being enlightened: to live in spiritual enlightenment.
3. (usually initial capital letter) Buddhism, Hinduism. prajna.
4. the Enlightenment, a philosophical movement of the 18th century, characterized by belief in the power of human reason and by innovations in political, religious, and educational doctrine.

And Mirriam
1: the act or means of enlightening :  the state of being enlightened
2: _capitalized_ :  a philosophical movement of the 18th century marked by a rejection of traditional social, religious, and political ideas and an emphasis on rationalism —used with _the_
3: _Buddhism_ :  a final blessed state marked by the absence of desire or suffering

Am I correct in saying 'enlightenment' is only a concept in a few spiritual teachings?
Otherwise, it is a synonym for learning and understanding. Yes/No?

Then I listened to these two dudes.

Leo Gura




Interesting ideas on how to lose 'the self'. Leads the viewer through some interesting exercises proving there are gaps in our senses and our imagination.
I do see his point about letting go of your identity to avoid viewing myself relative to myself since it is fallacious; circular logic justification.

A small note: I couldn't watch the video for more than a few minutes because the closeup is persistent for over an hour...

Eckhart Tolle




Good quotes from the vid:
The state cannot be a goal because it is already here in the present.
If you don't want enlightenment as much as a drowning man wants air, you aren't going to get it.
You are not becoming something that you are not now. You are already fully yourself.
Every human being is complete within.

Then this video.
Enlightened Beings Share Their Awakening, Mystical Experiences




Interviews with people describing their spiritual awakenings or enlightenment.
Very interesting in the varied descriptions. It


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 25, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> With regard to believing they have the TRUTH and nobody else does.
> 
> Beyond that, I wouldnt know.


Even that isn't consistent with the Catholics I know.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 25, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Even that isn't consistent with the Catholics I know.


I guess we have had different experiences then.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 25, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> I guess we have had different experiences then.


Seems likely. I'm sure there are jerks among Catholics. I met a few, but the majority of those I knew were nice people, and actually among the more tolerant. They are also in the minority in this part of the US, so that might make a difference.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 25, 2017)

Enlightenment is a wreath of pretty flowers that smell bad!

Wait...no.... that's logic...sorry for the confusion.

And sorry for the buffoonish interloper, but ever since I saw this post that has been stuck in my head and I just had to get it out..... please ignore my poor attempt at humor and carry on with your post


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## thanson02 (Jan 25, 2017)

My issues with "Enlightenment" is that there is usually a bunch of cultural baggage that goes with it.  I ran into this issue when studying Taoism.  Lots of flowery language that doesn't tell you anything.

I have just settled on Enlightenment as taking the "us" we pretend or think we are supposed to be to be, chucking it, and come to a deep understanding of who we are, the good, bad, and ugly.  Once we come to terms with that and accept it, we can start to know our strengths and our capabilities.  We also realize that we are no different then anyone else and given different circumstances, we might have been just like the homeless guy down the street begging for money or the rich tycoon with the multimillion dollar business and coming to terms with that and being alright with it.

Note: Just because you become alright with this doesn't mean you are settling for less then you are to be.  You are just not using someone else to determine your capabilities and value.

Sent from my XT1096 using Tapatalk


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## Flying Crane (Jan 25, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Seems likely. I'm sure there are jerks among Catholics. I met a few, but the majority of those I knew were nice people, and actually among the more tolerant. They are also in the minority in this part of the US, so that might make a difference.


Well, having been brought up in a catholic family, my comments reflect my experiences.  Oh, they can be the nicest and sweetest of people.  But everyone else is wrong.


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## Tgace (Jan 25, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Well, having been brought up in a catholic family, my comments reflect my experiences.  Oh, they can be the nicest and sweetest of people.  But everyone else is wrong.



That's more YOUR experience than it is a Catholic experience IMO.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 25, 2017)

Tgace said:


> That's more YOUR experience than it is a Catholic experience IMO.


I can only speak from my experience, but it wasn't just in my area or just my family.

Of course every person is different so how different catholic lay persons will conduct themselves will vary.  But official church position is pretty righteous, even when they are being courteous and nice to people.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 25, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> I can only speak from my experience, but it wasn't just in my area or just my family.
> 
> Of course every person is different so how different catholic lay persons will conduct themselves will vary.  But official church position is pretty righteous, even when they are being courteous and nice to people.


Oh, there's no doubt the Church is that way. Of course, that's common of all Christian denominations, at the Church level.


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## jks9199 (Jan 25, 2017)

Folks, maybe we can back off of the discussion of the Catholic Church?  Point's been made, there's a difference in personal experience... let's leave it at that and go back to the OP's topic.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 25, 2017)

"Enlightenment"is something that can change you from a normal human being into someone better.

1. Normal human being - Inhale happiness, exhale sadness (you only care for yourself).
2. Better human being - Inhale happiness, exhale happiness (you care for yourself, you also care for others).
3. Much better human being - inhale sadness, exhale happiness (you don't mind to die for others).


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## Juany118 (Jan 26, 2017)

What is the sound of one hand clapping?

In all seriousness Enlightenment actually depends on your ideology.  If you are looking for the Buddhist idea of enlightenment you are looking to achieve a state where you can transcend the desire and pain of the physical world because our personal perception of the world is an illusion that blinds us to the real world.  Truly accepting you can't control events around you is a big part of it.

While they don't use the term often, enlightened in Confucianism would be achieving a true acknowledgement of your place within the family and society and performing the duties of that position to the fullest.

In the Western context it is often associated with the cultivation of a rational mind to answer questions and find solutions to the problems that prevent or hinder the growth, happiness and freedom of society (not dissimilar to Confucianism.)

Those who follow Kabbalah may say this about Enlightenment

"Ben Zoma taught: Who is wise?  The one who learns from everyone, as it says: ‘From all I have learned from, I grew wise’ (Psalms 119:99).

Who is strong?  The one who controls his urges, as it says: ‘It is better to be patient than strong, and mastering one’s anger is better than conquering a city’ (Proverbs 16:32).

Who is rich?  The one who is happy with his portion, as it says:  ‘As you eat the work of your hands, happy are you and how good it is for you’ (Psalms 128:2). ‘Happy are you - in this world; ‘how good it is for you’ - in the world-to-come.

So what is it? It depends on the context in which you ask the question.


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## TieXiongJi (Jan 26, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> "Enlightenment"is something that can change you from a normal human being into someone better.
> 
> 1. Normal human being - Inhale happiness, exhale sadness (you only care for yourself).
> 2. Better human being - Inhale happiness, exhale happiness (you care for yourself, you also care for others).
> 3. Much better human being - inhale sadness, exhale happiness (you don't mind to die for others).


Good Sentiment!


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## TieXiongJi (Jan 26, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> What is the sound of one hand clapping?
> 
> In all seriousness Enlightenment actually depends on your ideology.  If you are looking for the Buddhist idea of enlightenment you are looking to achieve a state where you can transcend the desire and pain of the physical world because our personal perception of the world is an illusion that blinds us to the real world.  Truly accepting you can't control events around you is a big part of it.
> 
> ...


Great answer! All true statements.
The term 'Enlightenment' is relative to the speaker. I completely agree.


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## TieXiongJi (Jan 26, 2017)

Actually, I think that is the end of the conversation unless we go into detail on the different perspectives.

I will continue researching the 'Spiritual Awakening' and/or 'Pure Bliss' version and will post insights.

I welcome anyone willing to discuss their personal understanding of the concept, but the conversation needs to start with the personal meaning as there is no such thing as objective, as in same from all perspectives.


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## Chris Parker (Jan 30, 2017)

Hmm... I go away for a bit, and people try to take my place??? @hoshin1600 ... awesome. But the poetry? Yeah... not so much me... 



TieXiongJi said:


> Well, the title of the thread is "What is Enlightenment?"
> After years of studying the world around me, I came to the conclusion:
> Everything is 1, everything is trying to become a better 1, and everything will avoid 0 as that is the end.
> 
> What is your answer to the question?



The question of "what is enlightenment"? Cause, gotta say, the rest doesn't really mean anything... nor does much of your comments and research in this field... I'm not going to say what your comments are saying to me, but, yeah, that ain't it... at all.

So, what is enlightenment? Open your eyes.

And that's much harder than you may think...


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 30, 2017)

Chris Parker said:


> Hmm... I go away for a bit, and people try to take my place??? @hoshin1600 ... awesome. But the poetry? Yeah... not so much me...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Welcome back, Chris. I was wondering when you'd show up on this one. I think your name was only uttered twice, though...


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## Chris Parker (Jan 30, 2017)

Thanks... but I was also referenced in another thread... so that's three utterances, and rules are rules... ha!


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## Steel Accord (Feb 21, 2017)

If the OP is asking "what do we think it is?" then I will give my personal take.

Enlightenment is complete understanding of your whole self, your body, your thoughts, your feelings, your soul, and how all of them relate to both each other and the world as a whole. In this understanding, true inner peace is attained.


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## Psilent Knight (Feb 22, 2017)

Enlightenment.

I think enlightenment is something that cannot be captured but can be attained. And there are differences between capturing something and attaining something. Hint: attaining something normally involves a longer journey and different nuances than capturing something.

I think one can have a sudden moment of enlightenment (what some may call an epiphany) if they are already consciously or subconsciously on the journey of attainment of enlightenment, or at least their disposition is such that they are open and ready for a spiritual awakening of some sort.


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