# A general question



## terryl965 (Jun 12, 2008)

I have been doing alot of ground work lately, but I need to find a way to be a little faster in the since of getting a lock in either arm or leg, it seem it takes me a while to get it done when others can get the same move done in half the time. I sit just because of age or am I missing something when doing an armbar on the ground?


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## Empty Hands (Jun 12, 2008)

Well, some of this will come with practice and experience.  However, you also need to incorporate a strategic/deceptive plan into your submissions.  You need to set up your opponents.  For instance, if you have them mounted, first go for their arm like you are going to do the Americana.  When they reach up with their other arm to help defeat this incipient attack, you grab _that_ arm and tee-off with your arm bar.  It puts them off balance, they aren't expecting the eventual submission that you actually use, and allows you to put the submission on faster without all the resistance.  If they know what is coming, at best, you have to overpower and muscle them through it.  At worst, they turn your attack to an attack of their own.  Like if you try to pass guard and they turn that into a triangle choke.

Just my $0.02.


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## Rich Parsons (Jun 12, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> I have been doing alot of ground work lately, but I need to find a way to be a little faster in the since of getting a lock in either arm or leg, it seem it takes me a while to get it done when others can get the same move done in half the time. I sit just because of age or am I missing something when doing an armbar on the ground?



Terry,

Ground fighting is sensitivity. It is feeling your opponent and how they are moving. the more relaxed you are the easier it is. Of course it is hard when the opponent is hitting you in the face. But while working with people look for the transition point. Where you begin to feel it. Recognition is part of it. 

Of course there are those out there that do it fast and do not care for their partner, so if they make a mistake it is your arm that is hurt or damaged. So they move easier as they are not being careful of the person they are working with. 

Also, the larger around I have gotten the harder it is to get it moving from a sitting position. So look at your stances on the ground. Do you have do many parts of your body touching the floor? 

A way to practice is not to work on locks but to work on moving from position to position and work on your balance and timing and speed there. 

In the end ground fighting is position to position to superior positions to submission. And by superior position I mean you have the knowledge to execute the technique to end the situation and also the timing and the opponent usually has made the mistake or you have forced the mistake of the opponent to open them up. 

Good Luck


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## arnisador (Jun 12, 2008)

It takes a lot of time to see the openings. The best advice I ever got was to pick one (or a very small number) of moves and try to get that one move in each time. It'll force you to learn how to make it work.

Be patient. It's OK to hang out on top or bottom for sport (less so for self-defense).


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## MJS (Jun 13, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> I have been doing alot of ground work lately, but I need to find a way to be a little faster in the since of getting a lock in either arm or leg, it seem it takes me a while to get it done when others can get the same move done in half the time. I sit just because of age or am I missing something when doing an armbar on the ground?


 
Like the others said, its best to have some sort of strategy.  Grappling is really like a game of chess.  You really need to be thinking 2, 3, 4 moes ahead.  The goal is D, but to get to D you may need to set it up with A, B and C.  Now, some moves can be done, but you need to be quick about it.  As an example.  A few weeks ago, I was rolling with one of my instructors.  I had broke the guard and was attempting to pass.  I had control of his left leg, so rather than pass, I made a quick attempt at an ankle lock.  I was close, but not close enough, and he was able to work out of it.  Better luck next time. 

With time, you'll find that things start to get easier.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 13, 2008)

You know Terry depending on what I am going to do if I set it up properly I can go almost slow motion and the other guy or girl is not going to be able to mount a good defense.  *Now that is not always the case* though and sometimes you need to be able to transition quickly from one thing to the next.  Constant practice makes this easier and *relaxing* during training will also make it easier.  Also if you know how to flow correctly from one technique to the next once again that will make it easier.  As MJS said it is like chess and the more you know the easier it is to just relax and flow.  Keep up the good work!


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## DavidCC (Jun 13, 2008)

position before submission.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 13, 2008)

DavidCC said:


> position before submission.


 
Absolutely this is always important to remember!


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## Nolerama (Jun 13, 2008)

Staying in a Play mindset seems to work as well.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 13, 2008)

Nolerama said:


> Staying in a Play mindset seems to work as well.


 
Absolutely!  That helps in keeping people relaxed.


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## MJS (Jun 13, 2008)

DavidCC said:


> position before submission.


 
I agree 150% with this statement!!


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## terryl965 (Jun 13, 2008)

Ok but once you are in position how are you able to be so quick about applying the technique?


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## DavidCC (Jun 13, 2008)

Terry, I'm giong to say something and you will give yourself a Homer-slap

It's not quickness, but timing, that matters.

It just takes practice is all.  I'm sure you weren't so quick with the kicks 40 years ago when you started TKD!  relax - explode - relax


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## terryl965 (Jun 13, 2008)

DavidCC said:


> Terry, I'm giong to say something and you will give yourself a Homer-slap
> 
> It's not quickness, but timing, that matters.
> 
> It just takes practice is all. I'm sure you weren't so quick with the kicks 40 years ago when you started TKD! relax - explode - relax


 
Yes the homer-slap, you are right and all though I have done some ground it is more of getting up and continueing it that way. Thanks DavidCC, you know it is hard trying to do all these step to get that armbar or leglocks. Man I wish I was younger when I started this.


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## MJS (Jun 13, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> Ok but once you are in position how are you able to be so quick about applying the technique?


 
The timing and being quick go hand in hand.   Position is first and foremost, as David said.  Without that, all of the submissions in the world won't matter, because you won't be able to maintain the position long enough to apply them.  

If you're going for an armbar, it may be necessary to set it up first, unless the person you're rolling with just gives up their arm with ease.  So, once you set it up, and its presenting yourself, there is some aspect of having to be quick, otherwise, there is more of a chance for a counter from the other person.


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## allenjp (Jun 13, 2008)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> You know Terry depending on what I am going to do if I set it up properly I can go almost slow motion and the other guy or girl is not going to be able to mount a good defense. *Now that is not always the case* though and sometimes you need to be able to transition quickly from one thing to the next. Constant practice makes this easier and *relaxing* during training will also make it easier. Also if you know how to flow correctly from one technique to the next once again that will make it easier. As MJS said it is like chess and the more you know the easier it is to just relax and flow. Keep up the good work!


 
You know, this is interesting because just last night I was rolling with someone a lot more experienced than me, and I broke his guard, worked my knee up between his legs, and had a good position. I'm not quite sure why, but I let go of my position to try a quick pass around his leg for side control...only to land with my waist on top of his leg and shortly feel his legs close guard around my back again. Know what he told me? "not speed, technique..." if I had kept using my original technique which was slow, I would have been able to pass soon after, but by trying to be fast, I lost the better position that I had spent time and energy to acheive.


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## Makalakumu (Jun 13, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> Ok but once you are in position how are you able to be so quick about applying the technique?


 
It's just a matter of recognizing what is open.  Think about when you first learned to spar.  How many openings did you miss back then?  Its the same thing.

Eventually, Terry, you'll find subs that will become your go-to techniques when you get into position.  These techs with fit your body and flow out once you get position.

Its hard to advise on this because this is so intuitive and individual.


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## Nolerama (Jun 13, 2008)

When we're wrestling for position/submission I've been playing with the waiting game, where I just look for openings and capitalize. I've noticed I'm not as gassed out when I roll and I notice myself laughing at myself when I make a mistake or pull something off. It's all fun.

Because of this, when I play a more aggressive game, I've noticed a little more fluidity in my movement and when the moment is right, I explode and attempt something. It's not perfect, but I'm working on it.

Right now, I'm starting to feel like my eyesight is almost secondary when wrestling. I'm starting to simply feel for what my opponent is going to do.

It's like drawing something you saw earlier in the day. You've got a vision of it in your head, but the end result is not exact (unless you're DaVinci). It's okay because the technique required to complete the drawing was enough to touch on that vision and make sense. With more time and practice, it'll get better.


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