# Tiger and Crane form into Kenpo when?



## brianlkennedy

Is it true that the Kenpo Tiger and Crane was taken, with minor modifications, from the Hung Gar ([FONT=&#26032]&#27946;&#25331;[/FONT]) form of the same name? Here is an illustration from Lam Sai Wing ([FONT=&#26032]&#26519;&#23578;&#27054;[/FONT]) (1861-1942) book entitled Tiger and Crane Fist ([FONT=&#26032]&#34382;&#40372;&#38617;&#25331;[/FONT])







  I have often wondered how that set got into the Kenpo system. I presume, since Hung Gar is (and was in the 1960s) quite popular in Hawaii, some Chinese teacher taught it to Mr. Parker or one of Mr. Parkers students and then it got in the Kenpo system. Is that right? Anyone know about what year the Tiger and Crane form was incorporated into the Kenpo system?

  If I remember right- and I have not seen the Kenpo Tiger and Crane form since the early 1980s when I used to go to Ed Parkers Long Beach Internationals every year, and Tiger and Crane was a regular in the kata competitions.-but if I am remembering right, the Kenpo Tiger and Crane was done with somewhat higher stances than the Hung Gar version and had been shortened in the sense that sections of the Hung Gar version had been removed (in particular sections from the second half, the back half, of the Hung Gar version had been cut out).

  Hung Gar is still quite popular here in Taiwan tooalthough no Kenpo schools!

  Take care,
  Brian


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## Flying Crane

You are correct, it is a variation of Hung Gar's Tiger and Crane.  It is not the same as Hung Gar versions I have seen, but then again, there are numerous versions of the form, as it gets changed from generation to generation, and some other arts that have also adopted it as well.

I believe it was dropped from the curriculum in the later versions of Mr. Parker's art, but it is still taught in Tracy's kenpo.

I have heard that Mr. Parker learned it, probably in the 1950s, perhaps from Jimmy Wing Woo, perhaps at Ark Wong's school, but I believe it was not from William Chow.

I also have heard that the Tracy Brothers learned it in San Francisco's Chinatown and brought it into the system, but I don't have any specifics on that.

The details are elusive, and several stories exist regarding how it worked its way into kenpo.  I am not in a position to state which is the truth.


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## brianlkennedy

Good Morning Michael, 
Thanks for the run down on the form. Or I guess I should say "forms" since there were/are different versions floating around. 

I always really liked that form. I still do it. Although at 49 years of age with half shot knees, I am doing it more Kenpo than Hung Gar style---higher stances!

I certainly intend to teach it if I ever start teaching as I think the form has tons of good moves, good ideas---plus I just like "the look" of it.

Hope all is well with you,
take care, 
Brian


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## Doc

Flying Crane said:


> You are correct, it is a variation of Hung Gar's Tiger and Crane.  It is not the same as Hung Gar versions I have seen, but then again, there are numerous versions of the form, as it gets changed from generation to generation, and some other arts that have also adopted it as well.
> 
> I believe it was dropped from the curriculum in the later versions of Mr. Parker's art, but it is still taught in Tracy's kenpo.
> 
> I have heard that Mr. Parker learned it, probably in the 1950s, perhaps from Jimmy Wing Woo, perhaps at Ark Wong's school, but I believe it was not from William Chow.
> 
> I also have heard that the Tracy Brothers learned it in San Francisco's Chinatown and brought it into the system, but I don't have any specifics on that.
> 
> The details are elusive, and several stories exist regarding how it worked its way into kenpo.  I am not in a position to state which is the truth.



Pretty good Mike. You're correct. It is a variation, upon a variation, that went through several changes even in Kenpo. With bits and pieces coming out of Lau Bun' Hung Gar, some from Ark Wong, along with Parker options. Brought into the system around 63/64, like today, no two schools did it the same way for obvious reasons. This was well after Kwai Sun's influence. 

The Tracy's learned a version of it, but when they left Parker they "went back to the source" and re-learned it to teach in their system. I seem to recall Willie Lim teaching it to them. AL told me one year at the IKC in the mid-sixties.


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## Doc

brianlkennedy said:


> Is it true that the Kenpo Tiger and Crane was taken, with minor modifications, from the Hung Gar ([FONT=&#26032]??[/FONT]) form of the same name? Here is an illustration from Lam Sai Wing ([FONT=&#26032]???[/FONT]) (1861-1942) book entitled Tiger and Crane Fist ([FONT=&#26032]????[/FONT])
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have often wondered how that set got into the Kenpo system. I presume, since Hung Gar is (and was in the 1960s) quite popular in Hawaii, some Chinese teacher taught it to Mr. Parker or one of Mr. Parkers students and then it got in the Kenpo system. Is that right? Anyone know about what year the Tiger and Crane form was incorporated into the Kenpo system?
> 
> If I remember right- and I have not seen the Kenpo Tiger and Crane form since the early 1980s when I used to go to Ed Parkers Long Beach Internationals every year, and Tiger and Crane was a regular in the kata competitions.-but if I am remembering right, the Kenpo Tiger and Crane was done with somewhat higher stances than the Hung Gar version and had been shortened in the sense that sections of the Hung Gar version had been removed (in particular sections from the second half, the back half, of the Hung Gar version had been cut out).
> 
> Hung Gar is still quite popular here in Taiwan tooalthough no Kenpo schools!
> 
> Take care,
> Brian



Very interesting picture, and the Index Postures are correct too.


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## Carol

What are the indexes shown Doc? 

Or....would that be a book to write?


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## Doc

Carol Kaur said:


> What are the indexes shown Doc?
> 
> Or....would that be a book to write?



A thick book at that. It's amazing what the position of the fingers, in conjunction with other postures and actions, are capable of.


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## brianlkennedy

Of Lum Sai Wings three books, all of which came out in the 1920s, this one on Tiger and Crane is considered the best in terms of details. The illustrations were done from a set of studio photos taken of Lum Sai Wing.

  The posture name translates out as Emperor Lifts the Cauldron (Bronze Vessel). 

  Thanks much for the additional details about how the form found its way into the Kenpo systems. And it is interesting too, to hear about the functions of the index fingers. Much is made of that in traditional hung gar too. 

  One aspect that I was taught involved the fact that if the index fingers were set correctly (and I am not a kinesiology or biomechanics guru so my explanation maybe a bit lame) then they would cause the muscles in the forearm to arrange themselves in the strongest way possible to serve as a bridge for intercepting the opponents incoming attacks. Hung Gar places a major focus on bridges; i.e. how your arms contact the opponents to strike that perfect balance between strength and sensitivity. 

  Take care,
  Brian


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## Doc

brianlkennedy said:


> Of Lum Sai Wings three books, all of which came out in the 1920s, this one on Tiger and Crane is considered the best in terms of details. The illustrations were done from a set of studio photos taken of Lum Sai Wing.
> 
> The posture name translates out as Emperor Lifts the Cauldron (Bronze Vessel).
> 
> Thanks much for the additional details about how the form found its way into the Kenpo systems. And it is interesting too, to hear about the functions of the index fingers. Much is made of that in traditional hung gar too.
> 
> One aspect that I was taught involved the fact that if the index fingers were set correctly (and I am not a kinesiology or biomechanics guru so my explanation maybe a bit lame) then they would cause the muscles in the forearm to arrange themselves in the strongest way possible to serve as a bridge for intercepting the opponents incoming attacks. Hung Gar places a major focus on bridges; i.e. how your arms contact the opponents to strike that perfect balance between strength and sensitivity.
> 
> Take care,
> Brian


Absolutely correct sir, and even more applications than that. Much, much more. In person a plethora of applications may be demonstrated within context. There is so much more than the simple motion theme, as any biomechanist will tell you. Moving is not enough, it is how you move.


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## Flying Crane

Doc said:


> Pretty good Mike. You're correct. It is a variation, upon a variation, that went through several changes even in Kenpo. With bits and pieces coming out of Lau Bun' Hung Gar, some from Ark Wong, along with Parker options. Brought into the system around 63/64, like today, no two schools did it the same way for obvious reasons. This was well after Kwai Sun's influence.
> 
> The Tracy's learned a version of it, but when they left Parker they "went back to the source" and re-learned it to teach in their system. I seem to recall Willie Lim teaching it to them. AL told me one year at the IKC in the mid-sixties.


 

Thanks for that info.  If Mr. Tracy learned it directly from a Hung Gar source, I wasn't sure about that, and there are still definite differences between how we are doing it compared to how I have seen other Hung Gar lineages doing it.  Seems it is a popular form that has undergone many changes, even within the Hung Gar camps.


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## Flying Crane

brianlkennedy said:


> Good Morning Michael,
> Thanks for the run down on the form. Or I guess I should say "forms" since there were/are different versions floating around.
> 
> I always really liked that form. I still do it. Although at 49 years of age with half shot knees, I am doing it more Kenpo than Hung Gar style---higher stances!
> 
> I certainly intend to teach it if I ever start teaching as I think the form has tons of good moves, good ideas---plus I just like "the look" of it.
> 
> Hope all is well with you,
> take care,
> Brian


 
I like the form a lot, and the version I currently train was taught to me by a kung fu sifu who learned it from Kwok Wing Lam lineage in California.  It is definitely different from Kenpo's version, and different from other Hung Gar versions I have seen.  I have yet to learn the kenpo version from my Kenpo teacher.  I think the kenpo version is not just higher stances.  There are definite differences in how the form is done.


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## Doc

Flying Crane said:


> Thanks for that info.  If Mr. Tracy learned it directly from a Hung Gar source, I wasn't sure about that, and there are still definite differences between how we are doing it compared to how I have seen other Hung Gar lineages doing it.  Seems it is a popular form that has undergone many changes, even within the Hung Gar camps.



I've been aroud long enough to know that ALL styles and lineages have interpretive differences in everything, although some more than others. This occurs even when the source is from the same teacher. Sound familiar?


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## Flying Crane

Doc said:


> I've been aroud long enough to know that ALL styles and lineages have interpretive differences in everything, although some more than others. This occurs even when the source is from the same teacher. Sound familiar?


 

absolutely.


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## searcher

Doc said:


> Very interesting picture, and the Index Postures are correct too.


 

Just an added comment, the pic is from Master Lam Tsai Wing's book on the Tiger and Crane book he wrote.


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## donald

Doc said:


> Very interesting picture, and the Index Postures are correct too.


 

Looks like a pc. of (to name one) Blinding Sacrifice done from a training horse stance.

1stJohn1:9


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## Doc

donald said:


> Looks like a pc. of (to name one) Blinding Sacrifice done from a training horse stance.
> 
> 1stJohn1:9


I think not sir.


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## brianlkennedy

Here is a photo of Lam Sai Wing ([FONT=&#26032]&#26519;&#23578;&#27054;[/FONT]) which was the type of photos used to make the line drawings. 






  take care,
  Brian


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## HG1

Flying Crane said:


> Seems it is a popular form that has undergone many changes, even within the Hung Gar camps.


 
It's true there are differences in the interpretations of the pillar forms between Hung-Ga lineages but we share many more similarities.


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## Dave Simmons

Flying Crane said:


> Thanks for that info. If Mr. Tracy learned it directly from a Hung Gar source, I wasn't sure about that, and there are still definite differences between how we are doing it compared to how I have seen other Hung Gar lineages doing it. Seems it is a popular form that has undergone many changes, even within the Hung Gar camps.


 
Michael,

Please have Ted Sumner explain to you the origin of our Tiger & Crane form and Bookset.

Have a great day!


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## Flying Crane

Dave Simmons said:


> Michael,
> 
> Please have Ted Sumner explain to you the origin of our Tiger & Crane form and Bookset.
> 
> Have a great day!


 

Will do, Dave, it just hadn't come up yet.  I've been slogging thru the rest of the underbelt curriculum and relearning Short and Long 1-3 again, as well as learning the spear.

I never did learn the Tracy version of Tiger/Crane, but I've seen it done.  My first instructors taught a version that they got from a Hung Gar source.  I eventually dropped it, since I didn't feel I understood it very well.  I learned a version a couple years ago from my kung fu sifu, but it's a good deal different, and shorter.  That one comes thru Kwok Wing Lam lineage here in the Bay Area.  

I figured once it came up, I'd get the background and just hadn't discussed it yet 'cause I've been busy enough with the other stuff.


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