# Oh...My...Goodness! Hybrids anyone?



## KenpoEMT (Aug 12, 2005)

Hope this picture actually posts...

Never really gave any thought to purchasing a Hybrid vehicle before now. Drudge reports oil at $67/barrel. That's insane.

Last time I filled up, I payed $2.09/gallon.    What are you paying?


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## Tgace (Aug 12, 2005)

$2.30's-40's


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## Kane (Aug 12, 2005)

Its even worse here in the bay area.


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## Brother John (Aug 12, 2005)

It's $2.49 here in lil-Ole' Wichita Ks.
YUK!!!!!!!!
I travel 36 miles to work......One way.
.....and now that gas prices are this high and the fact that my car's A-C takes up More gas if I run it....
well.... looks like I'll just have to stick my head out the window and pant.
Guess I can always pretend I'm flying.

artyon: 

Your Brother
John


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## theletch1 (Aug 12, 2005)

Just paid $2.42 per gallon about half an hour ago.  Expected to continue to rise over the next little while.  My driving habits won't change, though...they can't.  The only driving I do is to and from work, the dojo and the grocery store (no I don't have a life, I have kids).  Interesting thing about the gas prices here is that I was listening to a report on the radio that was telling us that prices were at an average $2.28 here in Roanoke...meanwhile, every station I passed was at least $2.40.


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## Sapper6 (Aug 12, 2005)

i filled up with super unleaded yesterday for $2.09.  this morning that same station was selling regular unleaded for $2.39.

my company First Sergeant has a hybrid that gets 55 miles to the gallon; runs on battery power under 45MPH.  he's laughing his **** off


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## Tgace (Aug 12, 2005)

I was just discussing what I heard on ABC Nightly News. They say that oil refinery outages and fear over Irans Nukes jacked up prices. IMO thats a load of crap excuse to gouge more $$ out of consumers. If refineries are out that means raw crude should be stacking up right? Why is crude going up then? I could see the gas price going up but why Oil? I think the traders see that even though the cost is going up we are still buying. Why stop now? Make all the money you can right?


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## KenpoEMT (Aug 12, 2005)

Sapper6 said:
			
		

> i filled up with super unleaded yesterday for $2.09. this morning that same station was selling regular unleaded for $2.39.


Sheesh!!



> my company First Sergeant has a hybrid that gets 55 miles to the gallon; runs on battery power under 45MPH. he's laughing his **** off


:rofl: Just got a mental image of one of my PrickE-9's (who was a monster of a man) stuffing himself into an itty-bitty hybrid :rofl: . 

Uh-oh, hope he doesn't read this board... :uhohh: It's been years since I've been in, but I have no doubt that he would find me and render my body into many unuseable pieces. :uhohh:




			
				tgace said:
			
		

> I was just discussing what I heard on ABC Nightly News. *They say that oil refinery outages and fear over Irans Nukes jacked up prices*. IMO thats a _load of crap_ excuse to gouge *more* *$$* out of consumers. If refineries are out that means raw crude should be stacking up right? Why is crude going up then? I could see the gas price going up but why Oil? I think the traders see that even though the cost is going up we are still buying. Why stop now? Make all the money you can right?


Something is not right about this whole situation. War is supposed to be a boon for the economy (it's the awful truth), and here we are getting yanked around by filthy rich billionaires and their corporate minions. Our military is consuming an inordinate amount of fuel; you would think that this fact of profit alone would be enough to sate the greed of the seven sisters.

Really, how much money is enough for one person or corporation?


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## Phoenix44 (Aug 12, 2005)

It's just #$%@*  ridiculous.  $2.63 regular self-serve.

I have a friend who has a hybrid Toyota.  He's very happy with it.  

Fortunately I get 37 mpg highway with my Honda Civic.  And I just signed a contract for a solar array to supply electricity for my house.  Some of the electric companies are giving great incentives, and some states are offering tax credits.


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 12, 2005)

Theban_Legion said:
			
		

> Hope this picture actually posts...
> 
> Never really gave any thought to purchasing a Hybrid vehicle before now. Drudge reports oil at $67/barrel. That's insane.
> 
> Last time I filled up, I payed $2.09/gallon.    What are you paying?




Do a search on line and research your hybrid before you buy.

** Note I work on hybrids now, and I still am telling you to do your research even though that means one or more less sales **

Many of the Hybrids, do not get the fuel economy they claim. Some of the Japanese companies have used the tests (* Just like the America Comapnies in the past *) to optimize their fuel economy numbers for the test. Actual real world numebrs are much less.

Search for a class action law suit against some of these companies. 

Let us look at the cost and return for the buying of a hybrid.

The Average Hybrid is about $6,000 more than the non hybrid version of the  car.

Let us say Gas is $3.00 per Gallon.

Let us say we drive 60 miles per day.

Let us say we get 38 mpg for a small car.

Then we buy a hybrid at 51 mpg (* Assumption real world mileage is even close to this *)

5 Years   Regular car costs $8644 -  Hybrid is $6441 -   Savings   $2203

10 Years Regular car costs $17289 - Hybrid is $12882 - Savins $4407

So Similiar cars will not gain the cost back in 10 years.

Now if you look at change sizes of cars and actually going to something smaller then it should pay off.

Let us say Gas is $3.00 per Gallon.

Let us say we drive 60 miles per day.

Let us say we get 38 mpg for a small car.

Then we buy a hybrid at 51 mpg (* Assumption real world mileage is even close to this *)


Now my V6 Manual Convertible Firebird gets 27 MPH consistently. And I did not drive to conserve fuel.

5 Years   Regular car costs $12166 -  Hybrid is $6441 -   Savings   $5725

10 Years Regular car costs $24333 - Hybrid is $12882 - Savins $11450

So If I paid cash for either vehicle then after about 6 years I would break even to loose all the fun and save the money from gasoline.

Yet, many people want to deel good and buy a Hybrid and they get to pay in the monthly versus the weekly fill up. If you finance the cost of the car it only gets worse. 

Just make an educated purchase is all I ask.  Now, some Hybrids can deliver a better acceleration, and performance in a small vehicle. This is nice to see, but research and investigate and understand what you are buying.

******************

Now to the cost of fuel, this is outrageous. I agree with Tgace that this is just a way to get more money out of peopl and to also get the Fuel costs here in the US in line with the rest of the world, only elsewhere it is all tax and that tax is used for the betterment of the members of that country.

 :soapbox:


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## Tgace (Aug 12, 2005)

Fortunately I drive to work and back in my car (10min drive) and thats about it except for the odd trip. My wife does most of the driving shopping, kid ferrying etc. Even there suburban living doesnt chew up a ton of gas. So even though its more $$ out of pocket I dont really see a big difference in our immediate budget. Thats probably true for a lot of folks so we keep on paying and the price keeps climbing.


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## Tgace (Aug 12, 2005)

Very interesting points there Rich..I would never have thought of that.


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## MisterMike (Aug 12, 2005)

My 01 Dakota 4X4 got 16 mpg (had oversize tires, originally got 18 mpg)

I put 160k on it and traded it plus $1K for a '02 Ford Focus which gets 36+ mpg.

I use it for commuting to work.

I miss my truck though. I'll probably get a beat up truck for limited use in the winter.


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## Flatlander (Aug 12, 2005)

I am paying 99.9 cents/Litre.  1 Litre = 0.26 Gallons.  Therefore, I am paying $3.84 Canadian/US Gallon.

 Today, $1.00 Canadian = $0.8355 US.  Therefore, I am paying* $4.60* US/US Gallon.  And we produce more of this **** than you guys.  In fact, we sell you our surplus.


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## MisterMike (Aug 12, 2005)

> Today, $1.00 Canadian = $0.8355 US



Heyyy!!! When did that happen? Last time I was talking to a Canuck it was around $1.00 vs. $.55


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## Flatlander (Aug 12, 2005)

MisterMike said:
			
		

> Heyyy!!! When did that happen? Last time I was talking to a Canuck it was around $1.00 vs. $.55


Our dollar has become intricately tied to the value of oil.  Further, our economy is rocking due to fiscal prudence and sound investment by our government.  Your government has been, well, less prudent....


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 12, 2005)

Flatlander said:
			
		

> Our dollar has become intricately tied to the value of oil.  Further, our economy is rocking due to fiscal prudence and sound investment by our government.  Your government has been, well, less prudent....




Actually with the Euro being based to the USD at launch and then adjusting afterwards, this had a leveling affect of monies, that had ties to Europe or North America. The only major markets not directly (* although indirectly *), effect is south east Asia.

The Oil only helped some, the Euro and reference to the British Pound also helped.


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## Makalakumu (Aug 13, 2005)

Well, then there is this...

*Oil 'will hit $100 by winter'* 

Worst-ever crisis looms, says analyst · Surging demand to keep prices high 

*



Heather Stewart, economics correspondent
Sunday July 3, 2005
The Observer 

Oil prices could rocket to $100 within six months, plunging the world into an unprecedented fuel crisis, controversial Texan oil analyst Matt Simmons has warned. 

After crude surged through $60 a barrel last week, nervous investors were pinning their hopes on a build-up in US oil-stocks to depress prices in the coming months. 

But Simmons believes surging demand will keep prices bubbling well above $50. 'We could be at $100 by this winter. We have the biggest risk we have ever had of demand exceeding supply. We are now just about to face up to the biggest crisis we have ever had,' he said.

Click to expand...

 *


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## KenpoEMT (Aug 13, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Well, then there is this...
> 
> *Oil 'will hit $100 by winter'*
> 
> Worst-ever crisis looms, says analyst · Surging demand to keep prices high


You know, I really didn't believe any of the speculation about oil eventually hitting $55/barrel. I thought it was ludicrous, yet here we are in the mid-to-upper $60's.
$100/barrel by winter?  um...that's ludicrous :uhohh:   ...I hope...


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## Kreth (Aug 13, 2005)

I was reading an article in the local paper the other day. Gas prices are higher even though we have (in the US) a larger oil reserve than we did one year ago. Speculators are pointing to the war (even though it has had little effect on oil production), and the fact that the US has not built a new refinery since 1976 (even though many refineries have expanded their capacity, in some case by a great deal). 
BTW, the price for regular unleaded here in upstate NY currently sits at $2.49.


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## Sam (Aug 13, 2005)

this may be my 16 year old naivete speaking here, but I don't see how they can call this a crisis. 

They teach you in 3rd grade about supply and demand. We KNEW this was a limited resource, we KNEW we as a planet were using more and more and more... my dad was taught in grade school (in the mid 50's) that the world would run out of this resource by 2000. Well, it was a little off the mark... but we knew this was coming and we (as a country and world) didn't devote as much time and money and research as we could have to find alternatives.

it appears to me as if we made our own bed and now we are lying in it.


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## ave_turuta (Aug 13, 2005)

Theban_Legion said:
			
		

> Last time I filled up, I payed $2.09/gallon.    What are you paying?


 Nothing. I don't own a car. I am 28 years old and still do not know how to drive. Public bus, metro, and my two perfectly-working legs seem to be able to take me anywhere I need to go, with a few important exceptions 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 (granted, I live in DC). I'll say one thing, though: as long as this country keeps worshiping the car as it's demi-god, no solution will be found for this problem. We allow for the construction of inifinite number of very expensive highways to accommodate the ever-expanding population, yet we seem to be unable to build efficient, modern, reliable means of public transportation for those of us who wish to be more respectful towards our environment and our health... 

 As a foreigner, I am astonished (and worried) by the excessive reliance Americans show towards their cars. I mean, yes: distances are long here, but modifying some of our habits would lead to a decrease in car-reliance and by extension in oil-consumption. European countries have developed an extensive network of public transportation (trains, buses, subway, and trams) that work in a reliable manner and save billions of money to taxpayers and are much more eco-friendly. I have used public transportation in places like northern and southern Spain, Catalonia, parts of France, Switzerland, northern and southern England, and Germany, and have always been able to transport myself pretty much anywhere I wanted to go without a car at affordable prices. In the States, however, this is not possible due to lack of an efficient and reliable public transportation network. 

 Two examples: my parents live in northern Spain in a town of 60,000 inhabitants. My dad takes the car out of the garage only on Sundays to drive for 6 miles, to go to the nearby beach or woods. Even without a car, they could still take the bus but they usually make an exception. The rest of the week, the car remains parked in the garage. Grecery shopping gets done on a daily basis - my parents carry their shopping bags by hand, walking (sometimes they go to a supermarket that is a good 25 minute walk away, each way). Second example: next week I must travel a mere 30 miles to get a certificate from a government office. There is, simply put, no way of getting there with public transportation (there's only one bus going there in the morning and another bus coming back at 3 pm, which I cannot catch because my appointment is at 2). I am either left with the option of taking a taxi-cab, or seek the help of a friend. And it's only 30 miles away (it's not like I am going trekking or something, I am just going to a government building!!!)

 Perhaps personal responsibility and different consumption habits could help us rethink our excessively car-reliant culture in the US?

   Respectfully, 

   A.T.


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## KenpoEMT (Aug 13, 2005)

ave_turuta said:
			
		

> Nothing. I don't own a car. I am 28 years old and still do not know how to drive. Public bus, metro, and my two perfectly-working legs seem to be able to take me anywhere I need to go
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Makes me yearn for city life. 



> I'll say one thing, though: as long as this country keeps worshiping the car as it's demi-god, no solution will be found for this problem. We allow for the construction of inifinite number of very expensive highways to accommodate the ever-expanding population,


Too true; however, there certainly are many who live quite some distance from their occupation, even in the cities. I myself live in very lightly populated rural area that is quite a distance from the nearest market.
If I remember correctly, the interstate system was initially meant for the allowance of rapid military movement across the mainland. Now, the interstates have the responsibility to carry our incredibly important commercial transportation vehicles. The people in the cities would starve to death without trucks travelling tthe interstate system bringing food from across the nation. It is a necessity.
As far as the "car worship" comment is concerned, I believe that we should have out grown the combustion engine several decades ago. Look at how rapidly our computer technology industry has evolved. Can the automotive industry not evolve as well? It is quite possible that progress has been stalled simply for the sake of corporate profit. 



> Perhaps personal responsibility and different consumption habits could help us rethink our excessively car-reliant culture in the US?


 I don't really agree that it is irresponsible to own and use a car. The technology itself, while once useful, is the destructor here. We absolutely cannot have seven billion people driving personal vehicles powered by combustion technology. The technology must change. Period.

I enjoyed your post! Absolutely delightful!


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## Tgace (Aug 13, 2005)

But very few of the reasons given by analysts are given as a supply problem. I remember back in the 70's waiting in line on the "even/odd" day cycles to get gas. This isnt about scarcity, its about money.


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## ave_turuta (Aug 13, 2005)

Theban_Legion said:
			
		

> Makes me yearn for city life.
> 
> Too true; however, there certainly are many who live quite some distance from their occupation, even in the cities. I myself live in very lightly populated rural area that is quite a distance from the nearest market.
> If I remember correctly, the interstate system was initially meant for the allowance of rapid military movement across the mainland. Now, the interstates have the responsibility to carry our incredibly important commercial transportation vehicles. The people in the cities would starve to death without trucks travelling tthe interstate system bringing food from across the nation. It is a necessity.
> ...


 Thanks!

 Actually, a good and even more terrifying example is China. Some of my colleagues are Chinese, and I have exchanged views with them on this particular topic. It appears that individual car usage in China is presently skyrocketing in urban areas, with highways being built at lightning speed and agricultural lands being destroyed very rapidly. I am a person who thinks that resource consumption is a matter that needs to be addressed in global terms, and unfortunately the global trend is not towards less consumption, but more (due mostly to changes in consumption habit as well as ever-expanding population, save for European countries where population growth seems to be stable). 

 One side comment: I do not think, nor would I ever argue, that having or using a car is irresponsible. As with everything else, using a car in a repsonsible manner cannot be a bad thing. Sometimes I do find myself wishing i had a car to do the most cumbersome tasks in this country, such as groceries (the supermarket is not far, but it is a good walk and it gets tiresome) or simply being able to go to places I cannot access with public transportation (like going to a park or natural reserve). But regardless of my personal situation, I still think that the use of the car in our culture (and I mean the US) is extremely irresponsible, and urban sprawl is certainly not contributing to making it any better. 

 I hear that there are folks who work in the DC metro area and live in places as far as.... West Virginia!!!! I am not kidding: growth (both population-wise and residential) is truly getting out of control. Some counties seem very concerned with this kind of growth (i.e. Loudon county in Virginia) butothers seem to welcome it as a form of "economic development." i don't understand how environmentla destruction and all its associated costs (worse health conditions for the population, increase in stress and commute times, etc. etc.) can be considered "development." 

 With regards to hybrids: as long as Congress keeps passing legislation that encourages the use of mamouth-like cars such as SUVs, don't even dream of hybrids taking off. In any event: why do so many people buy SUVs anyway??? I mean, it's still a box with four wheels!!!!!! (only it tells everyone you either have a load of cash, or have a huge debt to repay). 

 Peace, 
 A.T.


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## KenpoEMT (Aug 13, 2005)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Do a search on line and research your hybrid before you buy.
> 
> ** Note I work on hybrids now, and I still am telling you to do your research even though that means one or more less sales **
> 
> ...


That's a great post.  I've read it a couple of times. If you trade in your vehicle every five or six years anyway, you are not saving a dime (might save a little bit of the environment though) on straight combustion vs. hybrid.

I want to find out a little more on what you were saying about the Japanese fudging the mpg tests... I'll see what I can find out online, but I'd like to hear your explanation of what rigging the test involves.

Thanks Rich. Great post.


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## ave_turuta (Aug 13, 2005)

Theban_Legion said:
			
		

> Can the automotive industry not evolve as well? It is quite possible that progress has been stalled simply for the sake of corporate profit.


 Of course. This is, imho, the most important reason stalling change. For goodness sakes, WE SEND SHIPS TO MARS!!!!!!!!!!!!! TO MARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and we can't come up with a better alternative to oil consumption???? ah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 13, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> But very few of the reasons given by analysts are given as a supply problem. I remember back in the 70's waiting in line on the "even/odd" day cycles to get gas. This isnt about scarcity, its about money.



Money? No it could not be about the fact that people see a chance to raise the price a little and see what happens? OH great there is a war, and there is the refinery issue that happens each spring and fall, as they change their mixture for winter of summer fuels. It could have nothing to do with something like this.

Supply and demand is the simple way to look at capitalism, and the theory is that if a price is too high the market will not support it and then you will have a readjustment.

The problem is that all the local companies get their gas from a local supply area, and that local supply can raise their price, and now all the local gas stations have to raise their price to continue making a few cents on the gallon. The gas station owners are nto the ones making the lion share here, it is the middle man, and the companies that quietly set prices and they agree that they will not screw the other.  Hence our Monopoly laws, and even the laws about banking in the USA and also train laws. Most of our trains are set up and controlled by federal regulation to the point that they cannot make a profit. There really is only one run of train rail that is profitable and that is the east coast run from NY to Boston. 

So if you believe that supply and demand controls this market, then you need to look at the bigger picture and understand how they distribute the fuel to better manage the costs of distribution across the country.

 :soapbox:


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## Tgace (Aug 13, 2005)

Yep Rich. Its been going around for a while that the "US has the cheapest gas...they are paying X here and X there"...its like the oil industry was laying the groundwork for a profit increase for a long time. The bottom line though is, even though we all gripe about the cost of gas, most of us can in fact afford it and very few of us seem to be altering our consumption habits in any way.


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 13, 2005)

ave_turuta said:
			
		

> With regards to hybrids: as long as Congress keeps passing legislation that encourages the use of mamouth-like cars such as SUVs, don't even dream of hybrids taking off. In any event: why do so many people buy SUVs anyway??? I mean, it's still a box with four wheels!!!!!! (only it tells everyone you either have a load of cash, or have a huge debt to repay).
> 
> Peace,
> A.T.




What legislation are you talking about?

Recently Truck CAFE (* Corporate Average Fuel Economy *) has increased. I believe this is done by the NHTSB, where the cars are controlled by Congress.

I know that Congress and the NHTSB are looking into getting vehicles like the PT Cruiser and the new HHR and the Toyota Matrix, and, other small 'cars' that have folding seats that give more cargo space then seating space, which makes it a truck, from being called trucks. 

What specific legislation promotes the SUV?

I am serious about finding out, so I can call my congressperson and senator to let them know I am not happy about this.

As to Hyrbids, the Toyota and Honda approach of quoting a better 0 to 60 time, is what will get the hybrids moving. By having four electric motors that can ontrol torque to each wheel independantly this gives you a better controlled launch to accelerate. 

Once the coast of Hybrids drops so that it pays for itself, in the life of the car, then it will also take off.

Car companies want hyrbids, because with them they get emissions credits, they get a better CAFE number, which does allow them to sell thsoe SUV's as well, but you have to balance the mix. So Hybrids are here to stay and will only get better, it will just take time.


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 13, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Yep Rich. Its been going around for a while that the "US has the cheapest gas...they are paying X here and X there"...its like the oil industry was laying the groundwork for a profit increase for a long time. The bottom line though is, even though we all gripe about the cost of gas, most of us can in fact afford it and very few of us seem to be altering our consumption habits in any way.




Tom the average person pays an extra 5 to 10 USD at the pump a week, and this means a couple less packs of cigarettes or beers at the bar, or a couple less bag of chips for home. So, people just do not put the money somewhere else. There are those I know who even drop their savings, or 401K contributions to continue living and consuming the way they want to today. 

So, yes, until we go on strike and not drive, or we stop buying large cars, people will not listen. For when this happens then the tourism and car companies will lobby for somethign to assist these areas of commerce.


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## KenpoEMT (Aug 13, 2005)

ave_turuta said:
			
		

> Actually, a good and even more terrifying example is China. Some of my colleagues are Chinese, and I have exchanged views with them on this particular topic. It appears that individual car usage in China is presently skyrocketing in urban areas, with highways being built at lightning speed and agricultural lands being destroyed very rapidly.


That is very disturbing. I was aware that China will become our largest petroleum consumption competitor. Considering the sizeable population of China, that is somewhat worrisome (if only from an environmental point of view; not pondering the military implications).



> I am a person who thinks that resource consumption is a matter that needs to be addressed in global terms, and unfortunately the global trend is not towards less consumption, but more...


I didn't use to consider anything on a global scale. It has become necessary to do so. We are sliding down a slippery slope. Recovering from the fall may not even be possible, so all we can do is try to slow and stop our descent.



> One side comment: I do not think, nor would I ever argue, that having or using a car is irresponsible. As with everything else, using a car in a repsonsible manner cannot be a bad thing.


Ah, a simple misunderstanding on my part. No harm done.



> I still think that the use of the car in our culture (and I mean the US) is extremely irresponsible, and urban sprawl is certainly not contributing to making it any better.


I am not certain what the solution to this problem is. I can't see a realistic resolution other than altering our technology base (nearly impossible). 



> i don't understand how environmentla destruction and all its associated costs (worse health conditions for the population, increase in stress and commute times, etc. etc.) can be considered "development."


It is a shame when money becomes the sole motivating factor in any decision making process. 



> With regards to hybrids: as long as Congress keeps passing legislation that encourages the use of mamouth-like cars such as SUVs, don't even dream of hybrids taking off. In any event: why do so many people buy SUVs anyway??? I mean, it's still a box with four wheels!!!!!! (only it tells everyone you either have a load of cash, or have a huge debt to repay).


To me, a car is a car. As long as my vehicle can safely transport me to my destination I don't care whether the vehicle is large or small. SUV's are certainly not necessary; however, it is hard to limit free choice in this society, even when the choice may be unnecessarily destructive when operated using the current technology.

Thanks again.


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## KenpoEMT (Aug 13, 2005)

ave_turuta said:
			
		

> Of course. This is, imho, the most important reason stalling change. For goodness sakes, WE SEND SHIPS TO MARS!!!!!!!!!!!!! TO MARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and we can't come up with a better alternative to oil consumption???? ah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Yeah, that's almost verbatim what I was thinking!


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## KenpoEMT (Aug 13, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> ...The bottom line though is, even though we all gripe about the cost of gas, most of us can in fact afford it and *very few of us seem to be altering our consumption habits in any way*.


The cold, hard truth.


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## ave_turuta (Aug 13, 2005)

I am specifically referring to the tax breaks that Congress allowed for SUV models. I don't know if this is the case this particular year, but the fact of the matter is SUV owners get tax breaks for purchasing anti-environmental vehicles... 

 Peace, 
 A.T.


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## KenpoEMT (Aug 13, 2005)

suv tax loop hole

http://www.ucsusa.org/clean_vehicles/cars_and_suvs/page.cfm?pageID=1280

http://www.bankrate.com/brm/news/auto/car-guide-2004/tax-SUVs1.asp

http://environment.about.com/cs/globalwarming/a/SUVloophole.htm


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## KenpoEMT (Aug 13, 2005)

This one is pretty decent:

http://www.taxpayer.net/TCS/whitepapers/SUVtaxbreak.htm

closing the loophole


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## Ping898 (Aug 13, 2005)

Some interesting reading.....

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050813/ap_on_hi_te/hybrid_tinkerers;_ylt=AmaROX6.SAO7vp9522mkiiUPLBIF;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl


Experimental Hybrid Cars Get Up to 250 Mpg 

CORTE MADERA, Calif. - Politicians and automakers say a car that can both reduce greenhouse gases and free America from its reliance on foreign oil is years or even decades away. Ron Gremban says such a car is parked in his garage.

It looks like a typical Toyota Prius hybrid, but in the trunk sits an 80-miles-per-gallon secret  a stack of 18 brick-sized batteries that boosts the car's high mileage with an extra electrical charge so it can burn even less fuel.
Gremban, an electrical engineer and committed environmentalist, spent several months and $3,000 tinkering with his car.

Like all hybrids, his Prius increases fuel efficiency by harnessing small amounts of electricity generated during braking and coasting. The extra batteries let him store extra power by plugging the car into a wall outlet at his home in this San Francisco suburb  all for about a quarter.


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 14, 2005)

ave_turuta said:
			
		

> I am specifically referring to the tax breaks that Congress allowed for SUV models. I don't know if this is the case this particular year, but the fact of the matter is SUV owners get tax breaks for purchasing anti-environmental vehicles...
> 
> Peace,
> A.T.




If you mean the Small businesses referenced below, that is bad, if you mean everyone, then I would still like to see a link to what you are talking about.


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 14, 2005)

Theban_Legion said:
			
		

> suv tax loop hole
> 
> http://www.ucsusa.org/clean_vehicles/cars_and_suvs/page.cfm?pageID=1280
> 
> ...





			
				Theban_Legion said:
			
		

> This one is pretty decent:
> 
> http://www.taxpayer.net/TCS/whitepapers/SUVtaxbreak.htm
> 
> closing the loophole




Thanks for the links, it looks like it was out there, and congress is trying to make it better as they should


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 14, 2005)

Ping898 said:
			
		

> Some interesting reading.....
> 
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050813/ap_on_hi_te/hybrid_tinkerers;_ylt=AmaROX6.SAO7vp9522mkiiUPLBIF;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl
> 
> ...




I think this is a great idea, and is not only being done at Toyota, it is being done by all the car companies. Some are even working together to try to get there faster.

As to the $3000 per car, I thought I read at the bottom about $150,000 per car was spent but that they think an additional $6,000 in mass production would be the cost.

As to the additional batteries, there is the consideration of the initial charge, and where did it come from? There is also the consider of where do you dispose of these batteries when they are no longer functional? Are they Lead batteries that are used today, and the numbers are a lot that are needed, and to increase the performance or maintain the performance. 

The Lead is a disposal issue. 

The Electricity which is mostly generated in the USA by burning coal, which contains sulfur, is not good for the enviroment. The new systems/hybrids use a regen method to capture energy, and recharge the batteries so pluggin into your house is not required anymore which is great, but still the initial charge and disposal are a concern. 

All I am saying is that it is not as cheap as people make it out to be. Nor is it as green. Look at the complete system and understand it, and then make your choice.

I think that Hybrids, are a great idea and if choose to buy becuase you want to be more green, and help the environment, then I thank you, and agree with that philosophy. 

Yet, if you think you are saving money, and or there are no other considers with the new system, then more education is required.


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## Sapper6 (Aug 14, 2005)

Full article at FoxNews.Com



> *Experimental Hybrid Cars Get Up to 250 Mpg*
> 
> Politicians and automakers say a car that can both reduce greenhouse gases and free America from its reliance on foreign oil is years or even decades away. Ron Gremban says such a car is parked in his garage.
> 
> ...


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## ginshun (Aug 15, 2005)

> That is very disturbing. I was aware that China will become our largest petroleum consumption competitor. Considering the sizeable population of China, that is somewhat worrisome (if only from an environmental point of view; not pondering the military implications).


 What is really scary, environmentally speaking,  is the fact that Chinese cars are about 20 years behind US cars when it comes to emmisions standards.


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 15, 2005)

ginshun said:
			
		

> What is really scary, environmentally speaking,  is the fact that Chinese cars are about 20 years behind US cars when it comes to emmisions standards.
> [/color][/font]




Korean and Japan are at the same levels as the North American and European Countries. China with the new vehicles being built and imported have and will continue to have improved emissions over the older vehicles. Everything being built or imported in the last couple of years meets the European standards for emissions. 

The US and European countries continual roll out plans to have better emissions as time goes by, so, this may put China one level behind European countries now or in the near future. More likely they will be the same, as it is easier to say meet Euro Standards and then have the car companies build all Euro Cars to go to China, instead of having separate part numbers, to meet older standard to send to China.

China is coming up to speed real fast.


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## Phoenix44 (Aug 15, 2005)

I drove up to a gas station in the middle of the day ($2.56/gal), and _as I was pulling up to the pump the guy was raising the price!_

(I didn't hit him)


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## KenpoEMT (Aug 15, 2005)

Phoenix44 said:
			
		

> (I didn't hit him)


:rofl:




Well, the station that I usually fill up at has raised the price EVERY SINGLE DAY since I first posted this thread. Was paying $2.09. When I filled up today I paid $2.37 at the same station. My brother filled up yesterday at a station in the next town down the highway and paid $2.59. This is driving (no pun intended) me nuts!

I wonder if the oil comapany's corporate vehicles are hybrids... :lol:


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 16, 2005)

All across south east Michigan it went from $2.599 a gallon to $2.799

And then this guys tells me that the fuel on the lake On Sunday was $2.009 

I told him he should have filled up there and also filled up his car and lawn mower and ...


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## Jonathan Randall (Aug 16, 2005)

Ha! I have a little Geo Metro. It gets nearly as good mileage as my old moped did...

However, if I were in a high speed accident, I would not have the survivability of an SUV. Families with small children have to keep this in mind as there are more important things than saving a few dollars on gas each week.

I'd like to see a re-emphasis on fuel efficiency among automakers. I have nothing against larger vehicles and I think with some work they probably could be made more fuel efficient.

I paid nearly five dollars today for a gallon and a half of gas. Fortunately this will get me to work and back for several days. LOL.

My feeling is that hybrids, while promising, are not quite there yet. Still, if I were in the market for a new car I would definitely be doing some research on them right now.


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 16, 2005)

Jonathan Randall said:
			
		

> My feeling is that hybrids, while promising, are not quite there yet. Still, if I were in the market for a new car I would definitely be doing some research on them right now.




I agree with this.

I talked to a guy last night and he was all up about corn oil running in Diesels, and that for a couple fo grand they can be converted, and something like two years to get the infrastructure in place to distribute. I think it will take longer but that is my opinion. Not sure of the MPG ratings, will do more investigation.

As to Ethanol, my personal experience is that the E85 which is 85 % Gas, gives slightly less MPG than no ethanol at all. Some of the trucks I know others have driven with the E15 fuel which is 15 % Gas and 85% Ethanol, and the MPG goes way down, from 17 mpg to 8 to 10 mpg. Yet the Ethanol is something that we can grow.

Alternative fuels such as fuel cells are in the research and could be a very important way to change the overall market.

No one is standing still on this, if a large company does not have somehting in the works, and it turns out to be the next great thing, they could go out of business trying to get caught up. Hence joint development programs to save money and share technology.

Oh well still ranting  and back to other stuff now.


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## MisterMike (Aug 16, 2005)

Gas would be so much cheaper if they would just leave off that darn 9/10 ths of a cent from their prices.


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 16, 2005)

A link to a diesel forum, yet the main page has some information on new legislation, and the links (* have not checked them all, look like you can learn more about Diesel and what the Governement is doing.

http://www.dieselforum.org/

Check it out.


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 16, 2005)

Another link that talks about other future work in progress.

http://www.climateark.org/articles/reader.asp?linkid=42578


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 16, 2005)

Also about hybrids in general, the MPG rating test is windows closed, and no AC or other loads on the vehicle. If you are serious about getting on, check out the repair costs and the MPG actually. Assk to take on anover night test drive, if they allow it, then check the mpg with AC or Defost (High) on and or windows down, for additional drag on the vehicle.

i.e. test drive the car like you would normally drive it, and see if the MPG is close to the sticker. The regular gas vehicles are off also, but are much closer.


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 16, 2005)

Check this link out as well: http://www.climateark.org/articles/reader.asp?linkid=45180


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 16, 2005)

And some more information as well:

http://www.defenddemocracy.org/publications/publications_show.htm?doc_id=282100


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 17, 2005)

From the Detroit News


This article talks about Horse Power and how the Japaneses in particular Toyota and Honda, are hurt by the new standard. Previously there were many places to measure horse power, at the Crank Chaft, or the Fly Wheel, or the output from the Transmission or the output from the rear end or final drive (* Front wheel drive *), or to the wheels. 

Just more data, on how the smaller companies including the Germans not just the Japanese were held to different standards or were allowed to use different methods, and then advertise. 

I know the company I work for did the at the Wheel and also rounded down to the nearest '5' unit to guarentee our numbers.


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## hardheadjarhead (Aug 17, 2005)

Forgive me if someone posted this before...250 mpg prototypes.  

http://premium.cnn.com/2005/TECH/08/15/hybrid.tinkerers.ap/


And a hydrogen motorcycle that would get me to Buffalo from Indianapolis on one tank and for a $1.50 and five pounds of hydrogen.  It goes on sale next year.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8228479/


I suppose you could get digital speakers mounted on it for that "vrooom vroom" sound.  Oh...and my wife allready said I'm not allowed to buy one. 

I was reading a book recently that talked about the net energy of hydrogen over gasoline.  I recall that it was, pound for pound, well over double the potential kilojoules.  I loaned the book out otherwise I'd reference it.

Some question whether the infrastructure for hydrogen is in place...a temporary one allready exists if they can find a way to store it safely...just about every quick stop gas station here stocks propane.  We could buy our hydrogen off the shelves stick the tank on our bike/car, and drive on.  We could get our hydrogen at Wal-Mart.

Plug in models could, I suppose, convert electrical energy into hydrogen by using water...I don't know how they'd do that safely.  They write about that in the second article.  I don't doubt its feasable and potentially safe if they figure out how to keep the stuff somewhat inert in storage.  

I wonder what would happen to the economies of the oil producing nations were we to make that shift?  Maybe terrorists would have to have bake sales to buy bombs.  


Regards,


Steve


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## OUMoose (Aug 17, 2005)

hardheadjarhead said:
			
		

> Maybe terrorists would have to have bake sales to buy bombs.


Why, when every vehicle in production would be 10 times the bomb they are today?  Think about a little minature Hindenburg-waiting-to-happen in the trunk of every car/truck on the road...


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## dubljay (Aug 17, 2005)

OUMoose said:
			
		

> Why, when every vehicle in production would be 10 times the bomb they are today? Think about a little minature Hindenburg-waiting-to-happen in the trunk of every car/truck on the road...


 
 They have been looking for ways to store the hydrogen in a more or less inernt form as sodium borohydrate.  Simply react the NABH(4) which is an aequeas mixture with water and hyrdogen gas is produced.  The only downside is the cost of sodium borohydrate, though there are alternative compunds (the names of which escape me at the moment).  Having an inter form of hydrogen would be the best method of storage in my opinion, and having it as an aequeous mixture would keep fuel stations more or less the same, no specialized training or equipment required.

 curde google search turned up this webpage (most of this is memory from working with alterative energy projects in college)  http://www.princeton.edu/~chm333/2002/spring/FuelCells/H_storage.shtml

 Anyway just my thoughts on hydrogen fuel cells

 -Josh


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## hemi (Aug 17, 2005)

Talking about the price of gas, when it broke the $2.50 a gal mark in Dallas I told the wife something has to give. It kills me to get rid of my Dodge Ram 1500 4x4 with a hemi but at 10 mpg in the city and 14 on the road. And my wife drives a Jeep Liberty 4x4 that on a good day will get 17mpg I started thinking time to downsize. We looked on the internet and I asked my Dad (he works for an extended warranty company) what cars seem to have less breakdowns. He said go with a Hyundai. To make a long story short I traded in the Jeep and the Hemi and dropped my payments by a little bit, I dropped my gas bill every month from around $500 to around $250 maybe less I just got the new cars today.. And now I have two cars with 100k mile warranties and both get around 33 miles to the gal.


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## KenpoEMT (Aug 17, 2005)

2004hemi said:
			
		

> To make a long story short I traded in the...Hemi...


May the Hemi rest in peace...  *taps plays in background*


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 17, 2005)

2004hemi said:
			
		

> Talking about the price of gas, when it broke the $2.50 a gal mark in Dallas I told the wife something has to give. It kills me to get rid of my Dodge Ram 1500 4x4 with a hemi but at 10 mpg in the city and 14 on the road. And my wife drives a Jeep Liberty 4x4 that on a good day will get 17mpg I started thinking time to downsize. We looked on the internet and I asked my Dad (he works for an extended warranty company) what cars seem to have less breakdowns. He said go with a Hyundai. To make a long story short I traded in the Jeep and the Hemi and dropped my payments by a little bit, I dropped my gas bill every month from around $500 to around $250 maybe less I just got the new cars today.. And now I have two cars with 100k mile warranties and both get around 33 miles to the gal.



Hyundai is a little skewed right now as they have the longest factory warranty, so the after market warranty for them does not start until 10 years out, which is where most of the serious cost starts to occur.


PS: Contact me if you need a name change


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## hardheadjarhead (Aug 17, 2005)

OUMoose said:
			
		

> Why, when every vehicle in production would be 10 times the bomb they are today?  Think about a little minature Hindenburg-waiting-to-happen in the trunk of every car/truck on the road...




Nah.  Likely won't happen.

They're working on taking carbon fibers and using them to safely store the hydrogen.  It won't go off even in a collision, most likely.  If engineered right, it may be safer than gasoline.




Regards,


Steve


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## KenpoEMT (Aug 19, 2005)

> But it's another arm of this movement, the Set America Free alliance (which also counts Woolsey among its members), that has identified a Holy Grail of sorts. Co-founded by Frank *Gaffney*, the neoconservative chief of the Center for Security Policy, *the group is touting the idea of a car that gets 500 m.p.g. of gasoline*.


QUIT TOUTING, AND GET TO WORK, MR. GAFFNEY!!!   ...lol
Those are some great links there Rich. 


...and gas has gone up yet again (locally). My station, which was at $2.09 and then $2.37, is now at $2.49.  The nearest town is still holding steady at $2.59.  In the last few weeks I've seen a $0.40/gallon increase...this is unreal, man.  I wonder if the station owner was just trying to keep his prices reasonable at the start of this 'petroleum maddness'.

It has been a few years since I've ridden a motorcycle, but maybe it is time to start looking into buying another one.   Hmmm...hydrogen powered motorcycles...  I could buy a hydro-davidgen... :lol:


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## Phoenix44 (Aug 19, 2005)

Went up 4 cents/gal since yesterday.  $2.61/gal regular self serve cash only.


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## Makalakumu (Aug 19, 2005)

It's 2.70 up here in Superior WI.

A little about Hydrogen...  

Hydrogen is an energy carrier.  It takes energy to get energy from Hydrogen.  For example, if one is going to release hydrogen via electrolysis of water, _electricity is _used to produce the hydrogen.  And, as of now, this energy is non-renewable, rather dirty, and growing more expensive.  Further, energy is actually _lost_ when producing hydrogen by the various methods.  

This is the biggest problem facing the hydrogen economy.  In order for this to work, we need a cheap, renewable, and clean source of energy to produce the hydrogen.


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 20, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> It's 2.70 up here in Superior WI.
> 
> A little about Hydrogen...
> 
> ...




And it is just now getting to 50%+ Efficiency on the input to output. Ihave heard it is better, now, but have not read it so I do not quote a higher number.


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## swiftpete (Aug 20, 2005)

Well I've just worked out what we pay in England. Typically pumps are priced by the litre and an average price at the moment where I am anyway, is 87.9pence per litre. It's more expensive down south but anyway...Doing the appropriate calculations (1 gallon = 3.7843 litres, 1 USD = 0.56 GBP) means that we pay the equivalent of $5.96 a gallon. So even the most expensive of your fuel prices is still only about half what we pay! I'd love to be only paying those prices! So you're not that hard done by really..If you have a thirsty turbocharged car like me then it can cost you a bit to keep on the road.
But who wants to drive round in a little shopping trolley?


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 20, 2005)

swiftpete said:
			
		

> Well I've just worked out what we pay in England. Typically pumps are priced by the litre and an average price at the moment where I am anyway, is 87.9pence per litre. It's more expensive down south but anyway...Doing the appropriate calculations (1 gallon = 3.7843 litres, 1 USD = 0.56 GBP) means that we pay the equivalent of $5.96 a gallon. So even the most expensive of your fuel prices is still only about half what we pay! I'd love to be only paying those prices! So you're not that hard done by really..If you have a thirsty turbocharged car like me then it can cost you a bit to keep on the road.
> But who wants to drive round in a little shopping trolley?




Do you know the tax percentage on the cost of fuel?

I do not know, but have heard the in the Euro countries there is a much higher tax on a unit of gasoline to be used for infrastructure.

Just curious.


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## KenpoEMT (Aug 20, 2005)

swiftpete said:
			
		

> ...we pay the equivalent of $5.96 a gallon...


$6/gallon... :anic: *faints*


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 30, 2005)

From Consumer Reports Oct 05

Fuel Economy "Why you're not getting the MPG you expect"

I suggest you check the whole article out, stop by online at www.consumerreports.com in a couple of months, when it goes to archives, or the news stands right now. 

A table from their article (* per class the worst vehicle in being inaccurate in city MPG, they are in order of the worst of the worst at the top. *)

Vehicle Type --- Make & Model ----------------- City MPG
--------------------------------------------- EPA ---- CR -- % Short
Small SUV ---- Jeep Liberty Diesel Ltd. 4WD - 22 ----- 11 -- 50%
Hybrid ------- Honda Civic Sedan ------------ 48 ----- 26 -- 46%
Large Sedan -- Chrysler 300 C --------------- 17 ----- 10 -- 41%
Midsized SUV  Chevrolet TrailBlazer EXTLT4WD 15 ----- 09 - 40%
MiniVan ------ Honda Odyssey EX ------------- 20 ----- 12 - 40%
Luxury Sedan  BMW 7 Series 745 Li ---------- 18 ----- 11 - 39%
Pickup ------- Dodge Ram 1500 SLT CrewCab 4WD 13 ----- 08 - 38%
Family Sedan  Oldsmobile Alero GL ---------- 21 ----- 13 -- 38%
Large SUV ---- Dodge Durango Limited 4WD ---- 13 ----- 08 -- 38%
Small Sedan  Ford Focus ZX4 SES ------------ 26 ----- 17 -- 35%




I really recommend checking out this article, and then discussing the issues with the EPA and the NHTSB with your congresspeople and senators.


PS: Gas is now $2.89 at the cheap locations and $2.95 to $2.99 for regular most places.


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## michaeledward (Aug 31, 2005)

This site may have been mentioned earlier, but I didn't see it in a quick scan of the thread.

www.gasbuddy.com 

You become a member, and post the local price of petroleum distillate for your friends and neighbors. Others do the same, and soon, in just a few moments, you know which filling station in town has the most economical fuel available. 

Car Driving Self-Defense.

Every time I want to complain, I just recall that I spend $1.19 for 16 Fluid Ounces of H2O at McDonalds for lunch. Gasoline is cheaper than Water.


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## Flatlander (Aug 31, 2005)

There is a well run diesel company in my province that is currently involved in a feasibility study regarding the economics of biodiesel.  I'm eager to know the outcome, as this could potentially provide so many benefits to our province should the project bear fruit.  They're talking about the ability to create fuel from oilseeds.  What I'm unsure about is the difference in pollution between the two fuels.


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## Phoenix44 (Aug 31, 2005)

$3.99/gal here.

I SO appreciate my Civic.


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## Cryozombie (Aug 31, 2005)

Phoenix44 said:
			
		

> $3.99/gal here.
> 
> I SO appreciate my Civic.


As do I the fact I dont have a car.

Viva Le Yamaha!


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## KenpoEMT (Aug 31, 2005)

Yesterday, while paying for my gas-tank full of gold, I overheard the station owner's significant other telling one of thier employees that they were going to raise the price per gallon to $3.06 the first thing in the morning. So, naturally, I flipped out (not really, but I sure wanted to).
The first thing I did was contact several family members to tell them to fill up their tanks that night. They flipped out (well, not really) when I told them why.
Anyway, long short, when I drove by the station this morning the price was holding steady at $2.74, and your's truely felt like a complete *** for alarming the entire family.

A couple of months ago I would have taken the owner's wife's words with a rather large grain of salt; however, recently I'm a bit jittery when it comes to news about gasoline prices.

[rant=pissedoff]

I like to kick ideas around as much as anyone, but recent events awoke my inner alarm-bell thingy (yeah, "inner alarm-bell thingy," that's a precise term  ).  All the world issues, until now, have been going on somewhere far away, and now these issues are reaching deep down into my wallet...

...and it's pissing me off, man.  

We need to change our approach to everthing that we are sustaining: divided politics, war, taxes, technology base...and most importantly we need to GET OFF THE FREAKIN' OIL!!! :tantrum:

[/rant]

Just wanted to share an anecdote and a rant.

I really am thnking about buying a hybrid now, a hybrid or a motorcycle.  Gas in the next town is $2.84.


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## someguy (Sep 2, 2005)

I live to miles from campus.  I use a new idea that so few seem to have heard of.  It's called Walking(Patent pending).
I also bum rides alot.  It's brilliant of me I know.  Obviously not everyone can do this but for small distances it saves alot and gets you in better shape.


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## KenpoEMT (Sep 2, 2005)

Walking, eh? Not a bad idea at all...  Round trip to my campus is 90 miles. I'd be in excellent physical shape. I think that I would be rather late for classes though :uhyeah:


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## Dronak (Sep 6, 2005)

I had been considering buying a hybrid car before this summer's rapidly rising gas prices.  That has just made hybrids an even more attractive option.  And for my particular situation, there isn't that much I can do to reduce driving or save money.  The price this morning had actually dropped, the high end, premium gas being around $3.14 which should translate to about $2.94 regular.

My car is getting rather old and will need to be replaced sometime in the near future, so I'm starting to consider my options.  Hybrids are definitely up there, so if anyone has some good info about them to pass along, please let me know.  Thanks.


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## Rich Parsons (Sep 6, 2005)

Dronak said:
			
		

> I had been considering buying a hybrid car before this summer's rapidly rising gas prices.  That has just made hybrids an even more attractive option.  And for my particular situation, there isn't that much I can do to reduce driving or save money.  The price this morning had actually dropped, the high end, premium gas being around $3.14 which should translate to about $2.94 regular.
> 
> My car is getting rather old and will need to be replaced sometime in the near future, so I'm starting to consider my options.  Hybrids are definitely up there, so if anyone has some good info about them to pass along, please let me know.  Thanks.




Do your research on ConsumerReports.org

Check out to see if there are any vehicle forums for hybrids, I know there are for Saturns and Cadillacs and such. 

Also read what I said / posted earlier in this thread about  costs of the vehicle versus the cost of gas over the time of owning the vehicle.  Honda actually has a comparison I believe.

It can be advantage if you drive a lot and also can use that type of vehicle for your daily transportation. 

Also remember that the federal Fuel Economy posted numbers, are on a specific test. This test does not require AC on or windows down. So, with any vehicle ask to test drive it over night or weekend, and if you can check the fuel economy for the way you actually drive the vehicle. 

This is true for any vehicle you buy, not just hybrids.

Hybrids are good, and help save fuel, yet if it is money out of your pocket, you need to investigate to make sure you actually saving money over the long run.

:asian:


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## Rich Parsons (Sep 7, 2005)

Just a note:

I like the idea of Hybrids. I think they are good and will be around for a while. Until we get some "New" technology to replace IC engines. 

I just wanted to point out to people that they should buy intelligently and not impulsively, and get what they are really looking for.


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## Rich Parsons (Sep 7, 2005)

Internal annoucement: Unable to link or to link original source at this time. My apologies



> GM NEWS
> BMW, DAIMLERCHRYSLER AND GM FORM GLOBAL ALLIANCE FOR HYBRID DRIVE DEVELOPMENT .... The BMW Group, DaimlerChrysler AG and General Motors Corporation signed a "memorandum of understanding" Sept. 7 governing the formation of an alliance of equals for the joint development of hybrid drive systems. The three global automakers are cooperating in order to pool their expertise for the accelerated and efficient development of hybrid drive systems.
> GM and DaimlerChrysler signed binding, definitive agreements on August 22, 2005. BMW Group intends to enter into a definitive agreement with GM and DaimlerChrysler later this year.
> 
> ...



As it says GM and DaimlerChrysler are already in an agreement for development for hybrids. BMW will be joining the development as well. 

Previously GM and Ford went into joint development to develop a new 6 speed automatic transmission to help with fuel economy and also performance, depending upon how you calibrate the system.


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## Dronak (Sep 7, 2005)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> I just wanted to point out to people that they should buy intelligently and not impulsively, and get what they are really looking for.



Yes, that's basically how I read your earlier post.  And as I indicated, this isn't an impulse reaction to gas prices.  I was considering hybrid cars about a year or so ago.  My car is rather old (it's a 1991 passed around the family) and I know it's going to need to be replaced in the near future, so I've had this in mind for a while.  I really like the fuel efficiency of hybrids, something like 40 miles per gallon, and thus saving money on gas.  I kind of view the lower pollutant levels as a bonus benefit.  As long as the cost of the vehicle isn't too high, then I should be able to make up the short-term extra expense to buy the vehicle with long-term savings on gas (and possibly repairs to pass emissions testing).  From what I've seen, currently available hybrids list around $20k or so which isn't as expensive as I thought they might be; http://www.edmunds.com/ has the highest number of vehicles in the $15-$25k range, so $20k list seems reasonable.  Yes, I should do more research and all that jazz and will as it becomes more important.  I was just wondering what people know about them and could offer me in the way of information, etc. right now.


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## Shaolinwind (Sep 7, 2005)

I got a 2000 Toyota echo.. 5 years old and still gets 40 mpg on the highway. Woot.





			
				Dronak said:
			
		

> I had been considering buying a hybrid car before this summer's rapidly rising gas prices. That has just made hybrids an even more attractive option. And for my particular situation, there isn't that much I can do to reduce driving or save money. The price this morning had actually dropped, the high end, premium gas being around $3.14 which should translate to about $2.94 regular.
> 
> My car is getting rather old and will need to be replaced sometime in the near future, so I'm starting to consider my options. Hybrids are definitely up there, so if anyone has some good info about them to pass along, please let me know. Thanks.


----------

