# martial artist or fighter?



## Magua (Jul 12, 2002)

it's a question i often discuss with friends so i was just looking for more people's opinions on the subject..
  what is the difference between a martial artist and a fighter?


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## Kirk (Jul 12, 2002)

A similar discussion can be found on this thread.


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## Siegfried (Aug 6, 2002)

A martial artist is a fighter, but a fighter is not neccesarily a martial artist. A martial artist studies a militaristic art and diciplines himself. Someone who is simply a fighter only opposess others  and does not constantly train and study to improve himself.


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## Magua (Aug 6, 2002)

although i see your point i'm afraid i'd have to disagree with you for the most part..
most martial artists today are not fighters but mere practicioners of an art..originally these arts were designed for military purposes and the like but they've warped into mostly a show of what once was and an excuse to make more money..
  very few modern martial artists that i've seen or heard of could hold their own in a real situation in which their life was in danger..
  there are many cases in fact where a martial artist has been hospitalized and worse by an average streetfighter..the reason for this is largely due to experience..a streetfighter is in the habit of fighting,often on a daily basis..the closest most martial artists ever come to the real thing is a tournament involving alot of stupid rules,referees,judges and points..
  though they have their uses a tournament can never compare to the real thing..it's kinda like the difference between katas or shadow boxing to sparring and training with contact..a martial artist often gets used to the mentality and relative safety of a tournament so when he/she is exposed to the real thing they fail to perform as well as they may have in a tournament..
  there's a dojo across the street from where i live and my 16 year old brother who has never taken any type of instruction in martial arts or fighting of any sort..other than what he's learned through experience on the street..when he was challenged,literally destroyed the top student there..
 for the sake of the instructor i will refrain from relating a far more embarassing incident..
  i've studied the martial arts for quite some years now so i was very insulted by this school claiming to teach the martial arts when not one person in there can fight..
  i have seen far too many schools and instructors and so-called masters fail to uphold the martial arts for what they were intended to be..many have never even been in a fight yet they claim to be masters..of what pray tell?the blind leading the blind 
  i have seen martial artists and instructors who do the arts proud and to them i give the utmost respect for they are a few of the last..
  but if you're looking for a true fighter..search the streets and back alleys,my friend..not a dojo


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## sweeper (Aug 6, 2002)

I would say a martial artist is someone who studies combat, a fighter is someone who fights...


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## arnisador (Aug 6, 2002)

If you want to be a great fighter, don't bother with the martial arts. Go down to the worst part of town, find the loudest, rowdiest bar, and go up to the biggest biker in that bar and spit in his beer.

When you get out of the hospital, repeat this process. If you survive, you'll eventually be a great fighter.

Moral: The martial arts are for more than just fighting.


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## Siegfried (Aug 8, 2002)

Those who you speek of Magua who simply practice an art and have no skill in real fighting are not true martial artists. They are simply upholders of tradition. A true martial artist expresses his will to be effective in combat by being in combat. Actual combat is the best way to learn how to fight.Teaching from a dojo comes second. A real martial artist trains in all his spare time,( mentally and physicaly). Those who simply practice organized dispare( limit themselves to the study of only one style and only train in the dojo) are not martial artists, they are blind to their own ignorance. I have met many high ranking students in my Shotokan Karate dojo, and have noticed they have no knowledge of the principles of combat, and they cling to the style that is Shotokan Karate. Therefore they are to limited for actual combat, and do not truely express themselves in a militaristic art but simply follow others. So they are not true martial artists.


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## Magua (Aug 8, 2002)

finally a person who shares my view..i completely agree
  i don't think these people have the right to call themselves martial artists..but when you tell them so they close their minds to whatever it is you may have to say..that's why i no longer refer to fighters as martial artists seeing as most aren't


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## seekeroftruth (Aug 16, 2002)

I just finished an article that approaches a very similar subject.  Check it out and give me some feedback.  Thanks in advance.
                                                                     Seeker of TruthClick Here for the Article


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## eternalwhitebelt (Aug 17, 2002)

Would I be wrong in guessing you are a Vunak student?  If not I bet you have studied his system.  Am I right?


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## seekeroftruth (Aug 18, 2002)

Yep,
     I train with Uncle Voo.  What made you guess that?  Was it the terminology that I use?


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## 7starmantis (Aug 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Magua _
> 
> *finally a person who shares my view..i completely agree
> i don't think these people have the right to call themselves martial artists..but when you tell them so they close their minds to whatever it is you may have to say..that's why i no longer refer to fighters as martial artists seeing as most aren't *



You said in your earlier post that you have studied for several years, "the martial arts". What style or styles have you or are you studying ? Also, what style was this "school" you were refering to ?

Just curious....

7sm


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## seekeroftruth (Aug 18, 2002)

Food for thought...  If you wanted to learn how to swim, would you take swimming lessons from someone who had never been in the water but they knew the technique of how to swim?  Same with Martial Art.  Why would you learn techniques from someone who has never tested them combatively?  When someone hasn't tested their techniques in sparring with an uncooperative opponent,  they are just teaching you theory.  They are not teaching you the reality of combat.  Just my two cents.           
                                                Seeker of Truth


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## sweeper (Aug 18, 2002)

I tihnk it was your use of the word "attributes".


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## Chiduce (Aug 18, 2002)

I think the understanding of a non-fighting martial artist is just a little narrow. In the first place, not fighting, even at the price of death is very very traditional or even losing not to expose the actual true art to a group of non-traditionalists was the norm in the very old days. Yet to assume that a 16 year old boy can go out and beat a ranking martial artist is a bit narrow also. There are schools which strictly teach non-violence and other's teach strictly self-defense; and those who teach a little of both. This does not prove that either is wrong. Sure it was wrong for the student to challenge the 16 year old. In the old, old days, a student with this attitude was considered an evil practitioner with evil ways! The martial artist of today is of three breeds. Traditional, non-traditional, or a mixture of both. Traditionalists usually search for a spiritual enlightening experience to begin their path of actual combat in which they are able to teach others real life combative defenses. The non-traditionalist tends to break with the norm in the presentation of new ideas and concepts to the traditional approach. Style's which do not have kata and/or forms tend to take the non-traditional approach. Sometimes, this is a trial and error thing! Kano, even stated to his wife that he may not be back home or make it back alive when he and his top students went to the streets to try out new concepts and methods of his art on the street fighters in his day! The mixed stylist of traditional & nontraditional methods, concepts and values tends to be more street and realisticly oriented, taking what will work out of tradition for their art and what will work out of the non-traditional methods, etc,. These stylists, may not study many martial styles, though what they have studied; they are very skillful in! This is bacically what every teacher wants from his/her students whether traditional or non-traditional. For without one, their can not be another! Thus, the true martial artist is the equal blending, (on an individual basis) of a mixture of tradition and non-traditional, concepts, methods, virtues, and values! He/she as a teacher is able to verbally, physically, and skillfully express these qualities in an absorbing manner of digestation to the eager for knowledge, humble students.
 Sincerely, In Humility;
 Chiduce!


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## MartialArtist (Aug 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Siegfried _
> 
> *A martial artist is a fighter, but a fighter is not neccesarily a martial artist. A martial artist studies a militaristic art and diciplines himself. Someone who is simply a fighter only opposess others  and does not constantly train and study to improve himself. *


bump on that, and a martial artist trains his mind as much as his body.


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## bob919 (Oct 21, 2002)

everyone seems to thing martial artists have an advantage over an untrained streetfighter they dont, street fighters have expperience of real fighting whioch believe me is invaluable  most martial artists have very fewreal life applications i mean try a 540 degree TKD turning kick and see how lonfg it takes to get knocked on your face. dont get me wrong martial arts helps alot and with good training  and learning to absorb what is useful and reject what is not it cna make you an incredible fighter but studying a single martial art and then (if you sparr at all)spar with practitioners form the same martial art is actually counter productive the easiest fighter i ever faced was a TKD practioner (blackbelt) but he obviously had very little fighting exerience he came at me with all tese fancy kicks(axe kicks 360 roundhouses etc) but i blocked/ evaded them then he did some turning kicks some of which con neected with me not all that powerrful though 

anyway i steped inside and won easy

i also faced a streetfighter no fancy kicked form him he came close head butted elbowed kneed in the groin now i was in pain but i manged to kick him in the shin and elbow him in the jaw he was KOed and i was in pain :waah: 

my point is alot of martial arts are two fancy to be effective


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## seekeroftruth (Oct 21, 2002)

Bob919,
     I agree with you to a certain point.  It is not about what martial art you train in, but how you train in that art.  Fancy moves are good for demos, however, the street has no rules.  If you train for this realization, you become a prepared fighter.  We do alot of scenario training to help with this.  You have to keep your training "alive".  Just my two cents.

                                                              Seeker of Truth


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## bob919 (Oct 23, 2002)

martial arts are arts  many of them are clearly designed fo show rather then genuine combat afighter is anyone who fights he may be a trianed martial artist or anything ut if he fights he is afighter

bruce lee for example never described himself as a martial artist always as a fighter and he was one of the first to dispell the myths of classical combat

martial arts look good thats why it is martial 'art' of course they were designed for comabt as well, but they could be soo much more efficient if they stopped trying to be so flashy

this is only my view though other people may have very different ones


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## theneuhauser (Oct 27, 2002)

interesting discussion. id like to know about this term everyone uses- "streetfighter". is there some secret breed of people running around in my alley fighting eachother all the time?

or is a street fighter just your average thug thats been in a handful of fights and knows what survival means?

this term is beginning to get glorified by alot of people and to me, a guy that was raised on the streets in chicago, il, i havent seen one of these so called magical "streetfighters" yet.


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## kenposcum (Oct 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by theneuhauser _
> 
> *interesting discussion. id like to know about this term everyone uses- "streetfighter". is there some secret breed of people running around in my alley fighting eachother all the time?
> 
> ...



I always like to say, "Everyone wants to be a streetfighter, no one wants to fight in the streets."  I'm guessing "streetfighter" just sounds cool, so everyone tries to use that term to describe themselves, or to piss on "partial artists."
I also have yet to meet a mythical "streetfighter."  I'm guessing they're like leprauchauns, only if you catch one he tests your art and if you pass then you get to be a magic streetfighter too.Ah, people are so stupid sometimes.  :asian:


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## bob919 (Oct 30, 2002)

i would describe a streetfigter as someone who can fight well on the street i have seen some martial artist with exceppent skills but as soon as they are hit they turn to haymakers they seem to lose all there skills


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## seekeroftruth (Oct 30, 2002)

IMHO a streetfighter is someone who has fight time without rules.  They realize that there are no certain situations in fighting and that anything can happen in the blink of an eye!  Just my two cents.


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## bob919 (Nov 2, 2002)

i agree if i was fighting a couple of people i would never eye jab unless i had to butif there was 4+ i would  because otherwise i probably wouldn't survive


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## theneuhauser (Nov 2, 2002)

> I also have yet to meet a mythical "streetfighter." I'm guessing they're like leprauchauns, only if you catch one he tests your art and if you pass then you get to be a magic streetfighter too.Ah, people are so stupid sometimes.



omg that was so funny!
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: 

kenposcum, you just made my day at work a little bit more tolerable, thaks!


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## MNKaliGroupRayW (Nov 11, 2002)

Good posts!

:soapbox: About "Streetfighters"

The definition is elusive because it is a slang term. The closest Websters definition is for "streetwise".
Main Entry: street·wise 
Pronunciation: -"wIz
Function: adjective
Date: 1965
: possessing the skills and attitudes necessary to survive in an often violent urban environment 

Typically I refer to someone as a streetfighter, if they if they have engaged in a fight outside of a sporting environment, no-rules, anything goes. Most of these situations are serious if motivated by criminal motives, but adolecent or young adult violence can vary in its severity to the combatants based on the morries and cultural norms of the combatants. Luckily for most of us the prospect of physical violence in our lives is rare and usually avoidable. But there are those whose lifestyle or socio-economic status lends itself to the likelyhood of incidents of violence. Those whose lifestyles contain violence or the threat of violence often practice or train for it, whether it be in a gym, club, school, or dojo; or in a gang, jail or prison. 

For the most part, I can think of 6 primary things will determine the outcome of a fight.

1 Experience: Novice student, average peace loving person; intermediate or casual training, devoted training, limited sporting bouts, full contact bouts, NHB/MMA bouts, street encounters etc. 

2 Physical ability: speed, size, weight, strength, endurance, perception, etc.

3 Determination: avoiding, accepting, controlling or domination a situation. Is it out of frustration, anger, ego/bragging rights, self preservation, derangement, or for the next crack fix)

4 Training: Skills boys and girls, you might not be born strong and fast, but you can improve on what you have! Training in one "range" (boxing, kicking, grappling, weapons etc) or training in all ranges. Training for rules or no rules. Training realistically vs. simulation.

5 Environment/Circumstances: Grass or cement, wet or dry, ice or sand, kicking with shoes on, grappling on pavement, crowded room/elevator, surprise/ambush/sucker-punch, #of assailents vs. # of potential victems (surrounded or loved ones nearby either way it effects ability to retreat or flee. 

7 Chance: Luck, devine intervention,  fate or mojo can work for or against you!

A streetfighter can excell in any of these areas, or be just as deficient as anyone else! Unfortunately the ones that deal with it in their daily lives, treat it very seriously and realistically. The habitual predators that may use physical violence to get the things they want or need will train deligently for their physical attributes, work on their training and use every dirty trick they can use.

I grew up poor, but was lucky enough to improve my position in life through education and hard work. But I grew up in an "ethnically balanced" urban city neighborhood half way between Chicago and Detroit. I have been in a few fights in my time, and seen my share of many more. My little brother, in his early twenties, spent six months in jail, he learned right away that you had to work out every day, because the real problem guys were big, bad and mean! He came out 20 lbs heavier, with big arms and a chipped tooth! 

The one thing I have learned is trouble is best avoided. Since life is unpredictable it is a good idea to prepare for trouble before it happens. If you train, don't have false ideas about your abilities, know you limitations by testing them. NOT everybody needs to be a NHB/MMA/Streetfighting machine, because there is always somebody bigger, badder and meaner. But the more you realistically train the the better your chances will be should the need arise. I hope to balance my training with a healthy lifestyle that will continue to provide me with growth and challange, not just butt kicking skills.

Train so you enjoy what you do, but if self defense is a serious concern for you, be sure to pursue it seriously and with an open mind. Don't take one master, sifu, or sensei's word for what works. Look at many sources of training and explore them for yourself! You will learn what works and what doesn't if you are truely objective and skeptical.

Good Luck!


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## don bohrer (Nov 15, 2002)

A young man joined our school about 3 years back and he faught like a tiger the first time he was on the mat. All I could think was "this kid is gonna be good once he learns karate" Man! was I surprised and shocked when I watch him a few weeks later. He was all messed up. Gone was his confidence and just do it attitude that he had earlier. It was several years later before all his skills returned. Now he is has been sharpend and refined with martial arts, and can easily hold his own.


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## Senfeng (Nov 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by don bohrer _
> 
> *A young man joined our school about 3 years back and he faught like a tiger the first time he was on the mat. All I could think was "this kid is gonna be good once he learns karate" Man! was I surprised and shocked when I watch him a few weeks later. He was all messed up. Gone was his confidence and just do it attitude that he had earlier. It was several years later before all his skills returned. Now he is has been sharpend and refined with martial arts, and can easily hold his own. *


I was the same way when I first joined TKD.  I went from having a lot of experience fighting after school to being the new kid.  I started backing off from normal aggressive nature because I was constantly being corrected.  It took me a while before I could "feel" what the art was about.

I recently joined a gung fu school and I like the fact that they work with a person's natural instincts (for the most part).  I haven't taking a martial art in over 10 years, but this one "feel's" very natural.  I was able to pick it up pretty quickly.


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