# Limb Destruction



## futsaowingchun (Apr 5, 2015)




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## Shai Hulud (Apr 6, 2015)

Speed and good sense of timing required.  Fighters who know what they're doing immediately retract any outstretched limbs following a strike to keep things like this from happening.


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## tshadowchaser (Apr 6, 2015)

Seems very similar to what is taught in most FMA classes. Destroy what is closed to you to get to your target
So is this generally taught in WC?


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## Shai Hulud (Apr 6, 2015)

tshadowchaser said:


> Seems very similar to what is taught in most FMA classes. Destroy what is closed to you to get to your target
> So is this generally taught in WC?


Filipino Dirty Boxing?


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## yak sao (Apr 6, 2015)

tshadowchaser said:


> Seems very similar to what is taught in most FMA classes. Destroy what is closed to you to get to your target
> So is this generally taught in WC?



It's basically a gaun sau


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## tshadowchaser (Apr 6, 2015)

Shai Hulud said:


> Filipino Dirty Boxing?



not really most Filipino arts teach one to destruct the nearest object eliminating that limb from the equation


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## geezer (Apr 6, 2015)

yak sao said:


> It's basically a gaun sau


 
--which can hurt like a son of a b... !


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## geezer (Apr 6, 2015)

tshadowchaser said:


> not really most Filipino arts teach one to destruct the nearest object eliminating that limb from the equation


 
True. And I'd agree that the way this was demonstrated looked a lot like FMA. I teach both Wing Chun and Eskrima and like many have observed before, there is considerable overlap.

Compared to _some_ styles of FMA, WC puts very strong emphasis on efficiency and directness. We would never try for limb-destruction when we could hit directly to the core. But sometimes you can't get that direct shot. Also sometimes you can injure a limb as you attack the core, as in Yak's example of _gaun-da_ sau. Essentially that's what's going on here too.


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## futsaowingchun (Apr 6, 2015)

Shai Hulud said:


> Speed and good sense of timing required.  Fighters who know what they're doing immediately retract any outstretched limbs following a strike to keep things like this from happening.


Then I guess arts like BJJ,Judo,wrestling would ever work against someone who retract their limbs.


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## futsaowingchun (Apr 6, 2015)

tshadowchaser said:


> Seems very similar to what is taught in most FMA classes. Destroy what is closed to you to get to your target
> So is this generally taught in WC?


This is what was taught to me,I can't speak for all wc lineages.


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## Vajramusti (Apr 6, 2015)

futsaowingchun said:


>


You can do much with a very  compliant partner in videos


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## Drose427 (Apr 6, 2015)

futsaowingchun said:


> Then I guess arts like BJJ,Judo,wrestling would ever work against someone who retract their limbs.




Anyone whos wrestled will tell you guys who keep the arms and elbows in and move are a pain to go against. When you need to reach, you tend to put yourself at a disadvantage


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## drop bear (Apr 6, 2015)

futsaowingchun said:


> Then I guess arts like BJJ,Judo,wrestling would ever work against someone who retract their limbs.



Tyrannosaurus arms are a wrestling defence. 

So yeah you are correct.


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## Shai Hulud (Apr 6, 2015)

futsaowingchun said:


> Then I guess arts like BJJ,Judo,wrestling would ever work against someone who retract their limbs.


Retracting your limbs _is _a way of shaking off an opponents grip in Judo. It's all in the timing and anticipating movement.


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## futsaowingchun (Apr 6, 2015)

Vajramusti said:


> You can do much with a very  compliant partner in videos


Maybe I should do it for real in real time Dumbass..


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## Danny T (Apr 6, 2015)

What prevents him from striking you in the chest or face with the opposite hand in this demonstration?
I understand striking the tsubo point however when done as in this demo you have just committed both hands/arm to one limb and his opposite hand is completely free as well as your hand on that side is committed and low. Why not Jum on the tsubo point and strike with the opposite arm? That will also put an object in the way of any strike with the free arm.


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## drop bear (Apr 6, 2015)

Danny T said:


> What prevents him from striking you in the chest or face with the opposite hand in this demonstration?
> I understand striking the tsubo point however when done as in this demo you have just committed both hands/arm to one limb and his opposite hand is completely free as well as your hand on that side is committed and low. Why not Jum on the tsubo point and strike with the opposite arm? That will also put an object in the way of any strike with the free arm.



You are of on his blind side though (or would be if at some stage you wanted to move your feet)

With a little cross step I reckon I could make that work and just crack his left hand down enough to (in my case) right cross him in the head.


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## drop bear (Apr 6, 2015)

I of course would be retracting my own left hand as I strike to cover. But he has to strike with a mayday right hand across his body. So I know what is coming and it shouldn't be all that quick due to the distance travelled.


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## Danny T (Apr 7, 2015)

drop bear said:


> You are of on his blind side though (or would be if at some stage you wanted to move your feet)
> 
> With a little cross step I reckon I could make that work and just crack his left hand down enough to (in my case) right cross him in the head.


But that is not what he showed or performed the moves.
As shown the opponent does nothing with the free arm and also doesn't move or do anything to reacquire the centerline.
We also look at most all moves as though it was vs an opponent with a weapon. This would fail badly vs a knife in the opposite hand.


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## drop bear (Apr 7, 2015)

Danny T said:


> But that is not what he showed or performed the moves.
> As shown the opponent does nothing with the free arm and also doesn't move or do anything to reacquire the centerline.
> We also look at most all moves as though it was vs an opponent with a weapon. This would fail badly vs a knife in the opposite hand.



That is why I would tweak it so it works. The whole thing doesn't work if he stands square in front of the other guy. It turns into a hockey fight.


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## geezer (Apr 7, 2015)

futsaowingchun said:


> Maybe I should do it for real in real time Dumbass..


Uncivil comments like this do nothing to further the discussion. If you can't accept that others may disagree, you would probably be happier just posting on that other, "dead" WC forum where almost nobody ever responds to your threads. Sounds boring though. Personally, I'd prefer dealing with dissenting opinions. 

BTW the professor (Vajramusti) has been doing WC for a very long time, and he is certainly no "dumbass"!


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## KPM (Apr 7, 2015)

Danny T said:


> What prevents him from striking you in the chest or face with the opposite hand in this demonstration?
> I understand striking the tsubo point however when done as in this demo you have just committed both hands/arm to one limb and his opposite hand is completely free as well as your hand on that side is committed and low. Why not Jum on the tsubo point and strike with the opposite arm? That will also put an object in the way of any strike with the free arm.



The simple fact that his structure is broken and he is bent over keeps him from striking with his other arm.  This is a basic control in Dumog from FMA.   I see nothing wrong with what he is showing.  It is a little more indirect than we like to be in Wing Chun, but you can't always be as direct as you would like!  I remember an article written by Hawkins Cheung many years ago.  He showed how he would use the Lop Da motion against a bigger guy.  Hawkins is rather small, so against a big guy he might not be able to reach with his punch.  So he showed the follow up punch after the  Lop Sau as a downward hammerfist to the guy's forearm....THEN he moved in to land the telling blows.


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## Mephisto (Apr 7, 2015)

Vajramusti said:


> You can do much with a very  compliant partner in videos


That's the problem I have with limb destruction techniques. Most of it is only demoed on compliant partners. I don't recall if I've ever seen it done in real time. It's one thing to have a cover that results in pain to the attacking limb, like an elbow to the instep of the foot against a poorly timed round house kick, it's another thing to attack an arm.



futsaowingchun said:


> Maybe I should do it for real in real time Dumbass..


I think you should. But you probably can't. I've done limb destructions while sparring, they work on guys with bad timing who haphazardly throw strikes. But if your opponent out classes you you're not gonna see the shots coming, and the ones you do see are just there to set you up for the ones you don't see.


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## drop bear (Apr 7, 2015)

Mephisto said:


> That's the problem I have with limb destruction techniques. Most of it is only demoed on compliant partners. I don't recall if I've ever seen it done in real time. It's one thing to have a cover that results in pain to the attacking limb, like an elbow to the instep of the foot against a poorly timed round house kick, it's another thing to attack an arm.
> 
> 
> I think you should. But you probably can't. I've done limb destructions while sparring, they work on guys with bad timing who haphazardly throw strikes. But if your opponent out classes you you're not gonna see the shots coming, and the ones you do see are just there to set you up for the ones you don't see.



See I have always considered limb destruction as something you do to their guard. Not trying to catch a shot out of mid air. 

Otherwise if they were hangi g that


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## Danny T (Apr 7, 2015)

KPM said:


> The simple fact that his structure is broken and he is bent over keeps him from striking with his other arm.  This is a basic control in Dumog from FMA.   I see nothing wrong with what he is showing.  It is a little more indirect than we like to be in Wing Chun, but you can't always be as direct as you would like!  I remember an article written by Hawkins Cheung many years ago.  He showed how he would use the Lop Da motion against a bigger guy.  Hawkins is rather small, so against a big guy he might not be able to reach with his punch.  So he showed the follow up punch after the  Lop Sau as a downward hammerfist to the guy's forearm....THEN he moved in to land the telling blows.


On a compliant or completely untrained or unsuspecting opponent ok.
Pull this off in the manner it is shown on an opponent who is fighting back or at real time vs real punching and counter punching. Can this action be performed at real time on a person who is punching or countering? Yes it can, but not in the manner it is shown. One doesn't have to go hard or fast to demo but at least the timing, footwork, body positioning, and angle of attack should be proper. The opponent can be compliant for the demo but should also be attacking and countering properly in that when an action, such as in this video, is performed poorly or improperly even the untrained can see/tell what does or doesn't work and why. A simple forward movement with a Quan Sao action (which the attacker is actually giving by turning the arm as he stated in the video) will prevent the attack.

I understand wing chun and I understand dumog. I understand demoing. I also admire all who put themselves out in video for the criticism. In this demo I'll give it may work due to the simple mass difference of the two and the total compliance of the counter. But vs a real counter-attack I have to disagree and vs one who may have a weapon in either hand and is attacking; 'It ain't going to happen!"


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## Vajramusti (Apr 7, 2015)

futsaowingchun said:


> Maybe I should do it for real in real time Dumbass..




Dumbass? sic?


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## geezer (Apr 7, 2015)

Vajramusti said:


> Dumbass? sic?


 Yeah, that's his response. LOL ...Oh well, as for myself, I'd rather be a Smartass than a Dumbass!


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 7, 2015)

geezer said:


> s for myself, I'd rather be a Smartass than a Dumbass!


Is there a movie that has a line, "Smart guy I like, Smartass I don't".

Since this thread didn't start with "What's your opinion on this?", this thread may intend to be an information thread and not intend to be an open discussion thread.


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## drop bear (Apr 7, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Is there a movie that has a line, "Smart guy I like, Smartass I don't".
> 
> Since this thread didn't start with "What's your opinion on this?", this thread may intend to be an information thread and not intend to be an open discussion thread.



Two way conversation. Sorry that is how the internets works.


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## Transk53 (Apr 7, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Two way conversation. Sorry that is how the internets works.



Yep. Is it just me, but I think folks miss that. If you want banter, you have to know what that banter is.


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## drop bear (Apr 7, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Yep. Is it just me, but I think folks miss that. If you want banter, you have to know what that banter is.



The Thing is the compliancy issue is a fair point here. In that I think you would have to move to make it work and you would get mabye a tenth of that effect. Which is fine. All you need is half a second and a fist size gap.


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## Transk53 (Apr 7, 2015)

drop bear said:


> The Thing is the compliancy issue is a fair point here. In that I think you would have to move to make it work and you would get mabye a tenth of that effect. Which is fine. All you need is half a second and a fist size gap.




Cool  I was just talking general banter though!


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 7, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Two way conversation. Sorry that is how the internets works.


Should we only give our opinions when someone asks for it?


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## drop bear (Apr 7, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Should we only give our opinions when someone asks for it?



No. A conversation is two way. It should be expected that we give our opinion. Otherwise we are not really having a conversation.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 7, 2015)

drop bear said:


> No. A conversation is two way. It should be expected that we give our opinion. Otherwise we are not really having a conversation.


Agree with you 100% there.

It just happens to me so many times. Whenever OP puts up a clip without a single word attached to it, I usually ask, "What do you intend to discuss in this thread?" The OP always responds as , "It's just information sharing and I don't intend to discuss anything."


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## Transk53 (Apr 7, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Should we only give our opinions when someone asks for it?



Er no. We should keep in mind. The opinion is when people listen to you. In my case, my team  It is not Black and White


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## Vajramusti (Apr 7, 2015)

geezer said:


> Yeah, that's his response. LOL ...Oh well, as for myself, I'd rather be a Smartass than a Dumbass!


-----Perhaps he was talking to himself. BTW in the other  forum- last time I checked several commentators made the same observation as I did.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Apr 7, 2015)

_*ATTENTION ALL USERS: Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

 -Brian R. VanCise
-MartialTalk Moderator-*_


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## dlcox (Apr 7, 2015)

Danny T said:


> On a compliant or completely untrained or unsuspecting opponent ok.
> Pull this off in the manner it is shown on an opponent who is fighting back or at real time vs real punching and counter punching. Can this action be performed at real time on a person who is punching or countering? Yes it can, but not in the manner it is shown. One doesn't have to go hard or fast to demo but at least the timing, footwork, body positioning, and angle of attack should be proper. The opponent can be compliant for the demo but should also be attacking and countering properly in that when an action, such as in this video, is performed poorly or improperly even the untrained can see/tell what does or doesn't work and why. A simple forward movement with a Quan Sao action (which the attacker is actually giving by turning the arm as he stated in the video) will prevent the attack.
> 
> I understand wing chun and I understand dumog. I understand demoing. I also admire all who put themselves out in video for the criticism. In this demo I'll give it may work due to the simple mass difference of the two and the total compliance of the counter. But vs a real counter-attack I have to disagree and vs one who may have a weapon in either hand and is attacking; 'It ain't going to happen!"


 
I tend to agree with Danny T here, though others such as KPM and the OP, I can see where they are coming from. Personally I like to enter from the outside in, creating a 45 degree angle when attempting to "catch" the limb. This allows me to use Bi Ma (Pressing Horse) and Kao (Bump) principles to facilitate in controlling the opponents incoming force and allowing for the opportunity to "catch" the limb before applying a destruction via forearm, elbow, shoulder, ribs etc. Most often when in close I will employ both hands on one limb from the outside angle, avoiding the power side, as a means of increasing my chances of grabbing the limb and use my ribs or waist to apply pressure to their elbow while my free hand strikes from their blind side. This proximity also allows me to use Chi Jiao techniques on the outside of their knee as well. For me it is a safe entry to an aggressive attack that keeps me covered up and allows me to stop the attack dead in it's tracks. It's not a graceful method but it works. Generally I use what we call our Bi Ma (Pressing Horse) position (Kind of like Crab position in Boxing), it is similar to a wrestlers stance with more of a 45 degree angle. It illustrates the old adage "Wrestle a Boxer, Box a Wrestler".

I should have also mentioned that this, the interception, catch, control + limb destruction & hit, can all be accomplished in one motion. Unfortunately this isn't always the case, so use of the Bi Ma position allows for follow up and variation when things go south. This is due largely to stopping the opponents advance in its tracks, which allows you to initiate your own push. Once their momentum is broke they cannot continue to "Steamroll" and have to start their advance over, usually from a different direction and now while countering your assault from their weak or blind side.

Its a tactic I've seen in some branches of Yongchun. George Foreman used a similar method called Crab style and it is a method employed frequently in Wrestling as well as a major entry technique of Bai He Pai.


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## futsaowingchun (Apr 7, 2015)

Danny T said:


> But that is not what he showed or performed the moves.
> As shown the opponent does nothing with the free arm and also doesn't move or do anything to reacquire the centerline.
> We also look at most all moves as though it was vs an opponent with a weapon. This would fail badly vs a knife in the opposite hand.



the way i demo the video is not the way I might apply it. I only showed a simple example to just get the point across.


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## futsaowingchun (Apr 7, 2015)

geezer said:


> Uncivil comments like this do nothing to further the discussion. If you can't accept that others may disagree, you would probably be happier just posting on that other, "dead" WC forum where almost nobody ever responds to your threads. Sounds boring though. Personally, I'd prefer dealing with dissenting opinions.
> 
> BTW the professor (Vajramusti) has been doing WC for a very long time, and he is certainly no "dumbass"!





geezer said:


> Uncivil comments like this do nothing to further the discussion. If you can't accept that others may disagree, you would probably be happier just posting on that other, "dead" WC forum where almost nobody ever responds to your threads. Sounds boring though. Personally, I'd prefer dealing with dissenting opinions.
> 
> BTW the professor (Vajramusti) has been doing WC for a very long time, and he is certainly no "dumbass"!



Maybe you should look at Mr. Professor original post about my video. before judging me.
VAJRAMUSTI SAID: ↑
"You can do much with a very compliant partner in videos"


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## Danny T (Apr 7, 2015)

futsaowingchun said:


> the way i demo the video is not the way I might apply it. I only showed a simple example to just get the point across.


Ok.


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## zuti car (Apr 7, 2015)

futsaowingchun said:


> Maybe you should look at Mr. Professor original post about my video. before judging me.
> VAJRAMUSTI SAID: ↑
> "You can do much with a very compliant partner in videos"


Well , Mr. Professor is know for putting people down in his passive aggressive way, he also constantly pointing out that there are only few people who know "real" wing chun and possess real skill (probably considering him self as one of thous few).  Just don't pay to much attention to these kind of things (and people) and do you things the way you like it .


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## futsaowingchun (Apr 7, 2015)

Vajramusti said:


> -----Perhaps he was talking to himself. BTW in the other  forum- last time I checked several commentators made the same observation as I did.




JOI at least I contribute to this forum


zuti car said:


> Well , Mr. Professor is know for putting people down in his passive aggressive way, he also constantly pointing out that there are only few people who know "real" wing chun and possess real skill (probably considering him self as one of thous few).  Just don't pay to much attention to these kind of things (and people) and do you things the way you like it .


I agree..


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## Callen (Apr 8, 2015)

Really? I'm sure you guys can do better with your comments... Honor Wing Chun with more respect and humility.


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## zuti car (Apr 8, 2015)

Callen said:


> Really? I'm sure you guys can do better with your comments... Honor Wing Chun with more respect and humility.


Honoring wing chun with respect and humility sounds like a very strange concept to me  , like some kind of religion or something very close to that .I would rather talk about honoring people . If someone constantly pointing out how other people do not know , or do not understand something ( in this case wing chun) ,well,  I cannot respect that person. On the other hand , if someone took time and made a video to share some of his knowledge without any other intention , just simple presentation of his system and his point o view , even if I do not agree with what he has shown I will stay silent out of respect for his effort and good will . There is always a way to state an opinion without insulting anyone , especially if that opinion is stated by highly educated person .


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## jks9199 (Apr 8, 2015)

Wow...  Maybe we can get back to the original topic and drop the personal attacks and shots?  Or maybe people need to collect some infraction points?  If the shots keep up, I will be happy to provide the points.

In case I am being too subtle:

ATTENTION ALL USERS

Please return to the original topic. Please keep the conversation polite and respectful.

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Administrator

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 8, 2015)

futsaowingchun said:


> at least I contribute to this forum ...


Agree!

Long time ago, I had suggested that every forum members should put up a personal clip that he/she punches/kicks on his/her heavy bag. This way we will know who is who and what stage of his/her MA training is.

Sometime I just wonder what's the purpose to share any personal clips in the forum? When you put up a clip, you may receive 50% of people who agrees with you, you may also receive the other 50% of people who disagrees with you. Sometime people's disagreement may put you in defense mode and force you to write more posts to support your previous post.

Unless you are trying to sell your upcoming books, or upcoming DVDs, why should anybody want to share personal clips online? Is that truly worthwhile your effort?


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## futsaowingchun (Apr 8, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Agree!
> 
> Sometime I just wonder what's the purpose to share any personal clips in the forum? When you put up a clip, you may receive 50% of people who agrees with you, you may also receive the other 50% of people who disagrees with you. Sometime people's disagreement may put you in defense mode and force you to write more posts to support your previous post.
> 
> Is that truly worthwhile your effort? Unless you are trying to sell your upcoming books, or upcoming DVDs, why should anybody want to share personal clips online?


I don't have any book or DVD on the horizon. For now my main purpose is to  show value and keep interest in tradional Martial arts so it won't die out. Also my videos are sort of a martial art journey and I'm just documenting my thoughts as I travel the path.I've spent 32 years Training Wing Chun and the most of that time I never want to teach it or show it to anybody but now I feel it's time you can't take it to the grave so you should pass on what you know at least it'll be accessible if anybody's interested in it.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 8, 2015)

futsaowingchun said:


> my main purpose is to  show value and keep interest in tradional Martial arts so it won't die out. ... you can't take it to the grave


I agree that's a good reason to share personal clips online.

One 6 harmony praying mantis (LiuHe Tang Lang) master 张祥三 (Zhang Xiang San) didn't want to teach his 6 harmony praying mantis to anybody. One time he was sick, stayed in hospital, and almost dead. When he felt that he was dying, in his dream, his teacher came to him and blamed on him not be able to pass his learning to the next generation. When he left hospital, he tried to grab anybody and begged them to learn from him.

One time my friend came up a new DVD, but his students suggested him not to make it public. He finally kept that DVD unpublished. I asked him whether he will feel sorry to take that information to his grave. He said, "I'll be glad to take that information to my grave."

Sometime I just feel that MA is a strange thing. When you try to give away for free, people will not appreciate it. When you try to keep it in secret, people will try to learn from you.


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## KPM (Apr 8, 2015)

Vajramusti said:


> -----Perhaps he was talking to himself. BTW in the other  forum- last time I checked several commentators made the same observation as I did.


 
But what is the difference between what he showed, and the typical "chi sau tricks" people show when posting videos of chi sau?  That's typically with a compliant partner as well.   He did over-react and didn't need to resort to name-calling.  But that wasn't a fair thing to say about his video either.  Most demo's are with a compliant partner.  That's what makes it a demo.  He never advertised his clip as a sparring clip.  I still like what he showed better than most of the "Lat Sau" demo's people post. ;-)


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## dlcox (Apr 8, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Sometime I just feel that MA is a strange thing. When you try to give away for free, people will not appreciate it. When you try to keep it in secret, people will try to learn from you.


 
A few years back a study was performed where two bottles of wine were presented. One was very expensive and the other very cheap. Naturally everyone chose the expensive wine and exclaimed how fantastic it was as compared to the cheap wine . Later the price tags were switched, and again everyone chose the expensive wine (not knowing that it was actually the cheap stuff) and exclaimed how fantastic it was as compared to the cheap wine. Goes to show that people are drawn to the perception of quality based upon factors such as rarity, price, age and trend and not the actual quality.


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## futsaowingchun (Apr 8, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I agree that's a good reason to share personal clips online.
> 
> One 6 harmony praying mantis (LiuHe Tang Lang) master 张祥三 (Zhang Xiang San) didn't want to teach his 6 harmony praying mantis to anybody. One time he was sick, stayed in hospital, and almost dead. When he felt that he was dying, in his dream, his teacher came to him and blamed on him not be able to pass his learning to the next generation. When he left hospital, he tried to grab anybody and begged them to learn from him.
> 
> ...




It's Psychology. What you can't have you want and what you can have you don't want.
 One of my teachers when he started to teach he did not charge a lot of money for lessons because he wanted to be affordable to anyone who wanted to learn,but very few people wanted to learn from him. Then before he decided to close his doors increased his price then he doubled his students..

 The day of secrets are over  because what ever your looking for can be found in other arts, if you look hard enough. Everyone wants to feel so special because they are from this special lineage that goes back to such and such but what only matters is what you can do. If you can surpass your teacher in skill and knowlege I think that is something special.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 8, 2015)

futsaowingchun said:


> The day of secrets are over  because what ever your looking for can be found in other arts, if you look hard enough.


To me, the "secret" is like a peace of thin window paper (during the ancient time, there were no glass and people used paper for window), after you poke a small hole on it, you can see through your window. Without that small hole, one may not be able to see what exactly exist outside of that window.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 9, 2015)

dlcox said:


> Goes to show that people are drawn to the perception of quality based upon factors such as rarity, price, age and trend and not the actual quality.


If you teach a workshop that has to do with fighting, you may find out that you will have less students than the workshop next to you that teach a "fan form".


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## dlcox (Apr 9, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you teach a workshop that has to do with fighting, you may find out that you will have less students than the workshop next to you that teach a "fan form".


 
My apologies to Stonecrusher for going off topic here, but I wanted to address John's post. 

This is one of the major problems within "Martial Arts" as a whole. There is no distinction or classification between what is considered to be "Traditional" and "Modern" or "Functional" and "Aesthetic" let alone "Sport", "Holistic" or "Military". The populace in general is under the assumption that it is *ALL* simply "Martial Arts" because of the way it is presented and promoted. They can not separate any of it because of this perception and generalization. This _"Lumping Together"_ may be well and good for those that will exploit this misconception and profit from it, but IMO it devalues the integrity of those that strive to maintain and uphold the traditions and practices of valid "Martial" arts based upon military practices, whether they be local militia, state or government military methods.

I personally do not consider methods like XMA, Contemporary Wushu or the like, as real "Martial Arts". In all honesty I do not even care for the term "Martial Arts", as for me, it conveys a meaning of personal expression akin to interpretive dance, just like XMA and Wushu. Unfortunately we really don't have another generic title that will be understood and accepted by the general populace.


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## mograph (Apr 9, 2015)

edit: deleted. Too far off-topic.


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## yak sao (Apr 9, 2015)

[QUOTE="dlcox, post: 1698658, member: 32540.....I do not even care for the term "Martial Arts", as for me, it conveys a meaning of personal expression akin to interpretive dance, just like XMA and Wushu. Unfortunately we really don't have another generic title that will be understood and accepted by the general populace.[/QUOTE]

Wholeheartedly agree.
I wrote this on my WT facebook page some time ago on this very topic:

_I hesitate to use the term martial artist. In fact, I’ve never really liked that term. I’ve seen too many people put the emphasis on the artist part, rather than the martial part.
By being an artist, you are not held to concrete standards, because art is abstract and as we’ve all heard, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. So to call yourself a martial artist, you are in some ways, giving yourself license to be ineffective.
That’s why I prefer the term fighter. It cuts right to the heart of what it means to study a martial art. Being a fighter is more than just putting on gloves and proceeding to beat the hell out of each other. Being a fighter is an attitude.
Being a fighter is developing mental and physical toughness. It is to keep going, even though everyone else around you has quit. It is pushing past your limits, throwing that extra couple of punches or kicks, going just one more round on the bag, running that extra 50 yards instead of taking the easy way out and just stopping to catch your breath.
Being a fighter is perfecting your skills. It is never settling for good enough, because you know it can always be done better. 
It isn’t being a troglodyte or being some sort of gung ho maniac who wants to smash their opponent.. It is treating yourself and others with respect. Being a fighter is carrying yourself with a little extra dignity.
That’s what I mean by fighter. Not everyone will have the skills of an Emin Boztepe, or a Joe Lewis. But we can learn from their work ethic. How did they get where they are? Training, and lots of it. Training while others were sitting. Training while others decided to take the night off.
We can’t always do the thing we’d like to do. Class time is often interrupted by family and work. There’s nothing wrong with that. In fact, family and responsibility should always come first. 
But honestly evaluate yourself. Whether you can make it to class or not, there are times throughout the day/week we can all train more than we do. We may just have the time and energy for a couple of minutes on the heavy bag, or a quick 50 pushups. But there's time.
We can all have the attitude of a fighter._


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## mograph (Apr 9, 2015)

While I agree with the value of seeing one's self as a fighter, I wouldn't be so hard on the term "artist" or conflate it with the idea of a _fine_ artist: one who paints, sculpts and so on. Strictly speaking, an artist _does_ things, and _makes_ things: "artisan," "artifice" are derived from "art." I was given a new appreciation of the word when someone pointed out that in Classical education, the liberal arts, based on "thinking" instead of professional practice (e.g. medicine/architecture) were grammar, logic and rhetoric, then arithmetic, geometry, music and astronomy. In this view, all stuff that we do or make, presumably in opposition to stuff that God did or make, would come under the heading of the "arts." 

As for concrete standards for a practice, they're artificial, made by us. In effect, by creating standards, we would be _making_ something, so we would be artists. 

So yes, people who call themselves "martial artists" and have no discipline, focus, investigation or practice are not good martial artists. I've seen enough of those. But to me, the practitioners who  investigate, craft, study, and practice a martial discipline diligently (as you do) are as worthy of the term "artist" as one who studied classical rhetoric or mathematics with the same discipline and focus.

I think that the bad martial artists are the ones who are misusing the term "artist," to give themselves license to be ineffective because they don't understand what an artist really is. I wouldn't accept their inaccurate framing of the term.

That's my opinion, of course.


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## yak sao (Apr 9, 2015)

Well stated


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## kung fu fighter (Apr 9, 2015)

Vajramusti said:


> You can do much with a very  compliant partner in videos


I really don't get some of you guys, Mike took the time and effort to make a video and post it in the spirit of sharing his wck thoughts and you dump on him. From Now on If someone has a rebuttal to a video a member makes, my suggestion is they should make your own video and post it as to why you don't agree and offer your own take on the subject. This would be contributing and encourage much more productive threads.


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## mograph (Apr 9, 2015)

Request we start again?


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## Vajramusti (Apr 9, 2015)

mograph said:


> Request we start again?


-------------------------------------
In order not to inflame the situation- I pass.


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## drop bear (Apr 9, 2015)

kung fu fighter said:


> I really don't get some of you guys, Mike took the time and effort to make a video and post it in the spirit of sharing his wck thoughts and you dump on him. From Now on If someone has a rebuttal to a video a member makes, my suggestion is they should make your own video and post it as to why you don't agree and offer your own take on the subject. This would be contributing and encourage much more productive threads.



Your post is a rebuttal to the critique.

So video?

At least you are getting a response. Some good some bad. Within the response we have figured out that the limb destruction has to be coupled with footwork. So everybody is getting something out of the discussion.

Would you rather people pat you on the head and tell you you are a good boy?

Fine.

O.P that video was really good. You keep that up.


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## KPM (Apr 9, 2015)

Vajramusti said:


> -------------------------------------
> In order not to inflame the situation- I pass.



Well.  An apology might be nice.  That would actually do the opposite and defuse the situation.  ;-)


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## Jake104 (Apr 9, 2015)

KPM said:


> Well.  An apology might be nice.  That would actually do the opposite and defuse the situation.  ;-)


Really? Was saying "you can do much with a very complaint partner" that harsh? He just said what most of us were thinking after watching the video. He should apologize for calling Joy a Dumbass. Or better yet maybe everybody on here should do less chi sao. It's making everybody hypersensitive. That's why I advocate sparring. It makes you tough like real man! I agree with Mephisto for once. What's the world coming to? I don't think he could pull it off real time either. Not cause he sucks, just to risky.  But kudos for putting a video up and putting yourself out there.

Disclaimer:
I do not take responsibility for my condescending or passive aggressive comments. Read at own risk!


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## geezer (Apr 9, 2015)

Jake104 said:


> Really? Was saying "you can do much with a very complaint partner" that harsh? ...maybe everybody on here should do less chi sao. It's making everybody _hypersensitive._


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## Jake104 (Apr 9, 2015)

geezer said:


>


You like that huh? I'll be performing here all weekend!

Seriously though, No DTE this weekend. some jujitsu tournament everybody is going to. You should come down here Sat Steve? We can train together? I'm free all day. I PM'd you.


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## geezer (Apr 10, 2015)

Jake104 said:


> You like that huh? I'll be performing here all weekend!
> 
> Seriously though, No DTE this weekend. some jujitsu tournament everybody is going to. You should come down here Sat Steve? We can train together? I'm free all day. I PM'd you.



It's a shame, but I'm working all day Sat., ...a 12 hour shift ...and most of Sun., then have my grades caught up an in by Wed. when I have to leave for Seattle. I'll be gone through the next weekend. Frankly things have been so crazy that I'm exhausted. I hope to get back with the DTE guys in a couple of weeks. Posting here is my only outlet.


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## KPM (Apr 11, 2015)

Really? Was saying "you can do much with a very complaint partner" that harsh? He just said what most of us were thinking after watching the video.

---Its much better than a passive-aggressive post to say you won't say anything!  ;-)


He should apologize for calling Joy a Dumbass.

----Yes he should!  That was an over-reaction and unnecessary.   There is a "tone" taken in exchanges in a forum like this that was very predominant in that "other" forum.  That "tone" is what we want to avoid here!


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## futsaowingchun (Apr 11, 2015)

KPM said:


> Really? Was saying "you can do much with a very complaint partner" that harsh? He just said what most of us were thinking after watching the video.
> 
> ---Its much better than a passive-aggressive post to say you won't say anything!  ;-)
> 
> ...



Imo my comments was a normal reaction. this is not the first time Joi has made very negative comments. About my videos. He simply is a troll and is looking to take cheap shots when ever he can. He thinks his wing chun does not stink and he has the special wing chun secret sauce. Where us his video..he never has produced anything but hot air..


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 11, 2015)

kung fu fighter said:


> Mike took the time and effort to make a video and post it in the spirit of sharing ...


A clip shows only one way to solve a certain problem. One can point out that there are many other ways to solve the "same problem". IMO, a "comparison" should be more fun for discussion than just "criticism".

There are many things that's interested for discussion the moment that your "right hand grab (or just a light touch) on your opponent's right wrist". When your right hand grab on your opponent's right wrist, you can use your left hand to strike on top of your opponent's elbow joint and then strike his face with your

- *left* hand (as shown by the OP's clip), or
- *right* hand (as shown by the following clip).






When your right hand grab on your opponent's right wrist, you can use your left hand to

- *strike* on top of your opponent's elbow joint and then ...
- *push* across your opponent's elbow joint and then ... (as shown by the following clip)


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## Jake104 (Apr 11, 2015)

futsaowingchun said:


> Imo my comments was a normal reaction. this is not the first time Joi has made very negative comments. About my videos. He simply is a troll and is looking to take cheap shots when ever he can. He thinks his wing chun does not stink and he has the special wing chun secret sauce. Where us his video..he never has produced anything but hot air..


At least you own it.


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## Jake104 (Apr 11, 2015)

Jake104 said:


> At least you own it.


Don't worry I'm not judging you. I took my vids down cause, I wanted to hunt down and hurt all the commenters who kept saying" that's not Wing Chun" on my youtube channel. That was my normal reaction at the time. Now I can careless. Everybody has an opinion. It's just funny how that opinion is louder online than it is in person.


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## Buka (Apr 12, 2015)

This is a tough crowd here. You can take any video and critique it to your heart's content, but that critique isn't usually realistic in my opinion.

The critiques I smile at the most are the "but you're open for a double leg, your open for a left hook, you're open for a yada yada" Well, yes, you're open for anything, any time and under any circumstance. That's what makes fighting interesting to watch and often painful to engage in.

It seems as if the critics feel that the person posting the vid only knows that technique and no others. Like that's the only thing they'd ever do in a fight. 
As for  the "compliant partner" thing, what the heck else is someone supposed to do to demonstrate something? True, there's a certain compliancy that's not realistic, like throwing a punch and holding an extended arm out there for thirty seconds while the other guy dances around and plays the drums on your head. But if you use a completely non compliant partner all you're going to have on video is two guys banging each other around until someone gets something in. Oh, ya, like that's fun to watch.

I love all the vids posted. And every one I watch I try to see something I can use, change, think about, talk about or watch out for if I'm on the defense.

I hope you guys keep posting them.


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## Vajramusti (Apr 12, 2015)

futsaowingchun said:


> Imo my comments was a normal reaction. this is not the first time Joi has made very negative comments. About my videos. He simply is a troll and is looking to take cheap shots when ever he can. He thinks his wing chun does not stink and he has the special wing chun secret sauce. Where us his video..he never has produced anything but hot air..


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## Vajramusti (Apr 12, 2015)

Let it go.I don't get personal. I generally call it as I see it and I try to get deeper in my understanding of wc. I don't discuss other hats that I may wear.. BTW who is Joi ?
As to what I do - some of it is in pictures and descriptions in my JAMA, IKF and Kung fu mag articles
listed on my website


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## geezer (Apr 12, 2015)

Vajramusti said:


> ... BTW who is Joi ?


 
Dunno 'bout "Joi" but there's a ton of stuff out there about another guy named "Joy":






*





Joyotpaul Chaudhuri, PhD*
Professor Emeritus Joyotpaul Chaudhuri has taught at eight public universities and was a Professor of Political Science at Arizona State University (1985-2003) before reaching Emeritus Professor status. He is also a past Associate Dean of Liberal arts and Sciences at ASU and an Acting Director of the Center for Asian Studies. He received his PhD at the University of Oklahoma (1964), BA from Central Oklahoma University (1958), ISc, from Calcutta University (1951), and High School diploma from Cambridge University as a student at St. Xavier's in Kolkata, India. His publications have been in the fields of political philosophy, comparative politics, and American Indian Studies.

...and this:

*Tempe, AZ.*



*Joy Chaudhuri *_Fong's Instructor_
E-mail: joy.chaudhuri@tempewingchun.com

Phone number: (480) 966-XXXX
Web address: www.tempewingchun.com
Location: Tempe Arizona
Address: XXXX X. Margo Dr.
Tempe, AZ.

I took the liberty of redacting the home phone number, personal email and street address that appeared online. Heck. I wouldn't want to give _my number_ to someone who calls me a dumbass troll. Ok, _actually, I just might_. But I'm a little wierd that way.


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## Vajramusti (Apr 12, 2015)

geezer said:


> Dunno 'bout "Joi" but there's a ton of stuff out there about another guy named "Joy":
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Vajramusti (Apr 12, 2015)

Joy did not initially give out his phone number and address. But then there was Google!


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## Jake104 (Apr 12, 2015)

Vajramusti said:


> Joy did not initially give out his phone number and address. But then there was Google!


Varjamusti, You and This Joy/Joi fella must be close? You seem to know a lot about him?

Third person?


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## Jake104 (Apr 12, 2015)

Buka said:


> This is a tough crowd here. You can take any video and critique it to your heart's content, but that critique isn't usually realistic in my opinion.
> 
> The critiques I smile at the most are the "but you're open for a double leg, your open for a left hook, you're open for a yada yada" Well, yes, you're open for anything, any time and under any circumstance. That's what makes fighting interesting to watch and often painful to engage in.
> 
> ...


See I didn't watch the video and think wow that's all you got. You're doing it wrong. You should of did this or that. My response or agreement with Joy's original comment is or was... Ok great another demo with a compliant partner. Which is great. I hope he keeps posting vids. I understand he's posting instructional type videos. Which is fine. I'd just like to see more videos with resisting opponents . Maybe at least with, light to medium pressure. Maybe with some aggression. That's what I think is missing in the vast YouTube Wing Chun video library.

And to be fair, I have never seen Joy put a video up. Or do I really think videos are necessarily an accurate gauge of a persons ability. I have found a better gauge of ones skill is, to actually get off ones rear end, and if possible, actually meet and interact with people FTF.

Tough crowd? All I know is Jake is a nice guy and a great person! And all comments by Jake should be liked or agreed with.


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## Vajramusti (Apr 12, 2015)

Jake104 said:


> Varjamusti, You and This Joy/Joi fella must be close? You seem to know a lot about him?
> 
> Third person?


---------------------------------
One time I looked at the mirror and a mysterious empty force crumpled Joi


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## Jake104 (Apr 12, 2015)

Vajramusti said:


> ---------------------------------
> One time I looked at the mirror and a mysterious empty force crumpled Joi


I just googled Joi . Its a bad word in Cambodian . I was expecting something nice and wonderful. No, bad very bad word. Cambodians are probably reading this thread and thinking what the F!


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## K-man (Apr 12, 2015)

futsaowingchun said:


>


I'm reposting the OP in the hope that we might get back to relevant discussion. The technique demonstrated here just happens to be shown from chi sau. That is the training tool. We have exactly the same technique in Goju Karate. We practise it from Kakie (Goju's version of sticky hands).  I fail to see where 'compliant partner' is relevant. If I throw a backfist hard and fast to the head, my opponent will instinctively block or get hit. If he gets hit I have a chance to hit again, if he blocks the arm is stationary and easy to capture.

To me this technique is 'bread and butter' basic. It is simple and doesn't rely on any complex movement. In training you can position yourself wherever you like. In fighting your feet will go where your feet need to be.


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## Vajramusti (Apr 12, 2015)

Ok. I tool a second look.. Liked it better the second time


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## Vajramusti (Apr 13, 2015)

Vajramusti said:


> Ok. I tool a second look.. Liked it better the second time





Vajramusti said:


> Ok. I tool a second look.. Liked it better the second time



His  latest video in another magazine is much better.


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## Danny T (Apr 13, 2015)

Vajramusti said:


> His  latest video in another magazine is much better.


Viewed the 'follow up' video.
Better demo.


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## geezer (Apr 13, 2015)

That would be this clip:






And, actually I _have_ used variations of all these with with success, but in application it's important to flow directly into the attack. The "limb destruction" is incidental. The real point is to establish a bridge and follow through striking to center according to the principle that, "attacking hand is defending hand."


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## Jake104 (Apr 14, 2015)

I like this video better. I like the shoulder technique since there's an actual disruption, Or momentary pause or jolt to the opponents structure. Which in real time allows you to get ahead of the count/timing. My only "criticism" which really isn't much. Is that the fak sao and even the guan sao can have that energy. Matter fact every time there is contact it should be present. Now this is something I can't even do every time . But it's something I'm constantly trying improve upon. I beleive it's forward energy with fa jin. My current teachers have this and every time they touch me, my legs buckle or I feel it in my back and I loose balance. This to me is why I love KungFu. Funny thing is one of the teachers that does this really well doesn't even do kung fu. So obviously this energy is also found in other arts and is high level. This is why I consider myself a martial artist and don't care to claim one style or the other. Cause at the end of the day it's all same same. It's MMA. My Martial Art.


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## r'n'r (Apr 21, 2015)

The idea of attacking a limb is good, but unnecessary in this context IMO. You could strike straight to the head with the hand you're using to attack the arm because your other arm is already pulling his down and out of the way. But I don't see much application for this particular one outside of a chi sao context; you're on the inside and having both of your hands down leaves you exposed, if only for a second.

I personally like 'limb destructions' and hard blocks.Takes the fight out of people quickly without hurting them much.


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## futsaowingchun (Apr 21, 2015)

r'n'r said:


> The idea of attacking a limb is good, but unnecessary in this context IMO. You could strike straight to the head with the hand you're using to attack the arm because your other arm is already pulling his down and out of the way. But I don't see much application for this particular one outside of a chi sao context; you're on the inside and having both of your hands down leaves you exposed, if only for a second.
> 
> I personally like 'limb destructions' and hard blocks.Takes the fight out of people quickly without hurting them much.



I agree hard blocks take the fight out of many people..Wing chun does not do much limy distruction you see it more in styles like Hung Gar, Bok Mei , Choy Leer Fut and other southern styles.


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