# Avantages/disadvantages rolling your hip with the side kick?



## Lynne (Jun 1, 2008)

At 6th gup, we focused on rolling the hip with the side kick.  It's awkward for me right now - sort of like the hook kick was at first (ok, the hook kick still feels awkward  ) Don't even mention the spinning hook kick...

Have you been taught to roll your hip with the side kick?  Do you find it very powerful?  Does it slow you down in sparring?  Is is natural for you to roll the hip now?  Do you always roll your hip when executing the side kick?


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## Montecarlodrag (Jun 1, 2008)

I'm not sure what you mean whith rolling the hip.
But if you mean kicking using also the hip (with your base foot pointing backwards) when power kicking, the answer is yes, it is better.

Kicking with no hip "rolling" is a little faster, but will never have the same power.
Practice it hard, in a few years you will do it naturally. After that you can kick the way you need, with or without hip rolling, depending on the situation.

As a matter of fact, there are some kicks which can't be performed without hip rolling, they are just not possible, like the front and spinning "hook kick", you need to use the hip, it's the way the kicks work.

Regards.


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## Lynne (Jun 1, 2008)

Montecarlodrag said:


> I'm not sure what you mean whith rolling the hip.
> But if you mean kicking using also the hip (with your base foot pointing backwards) when power kicking, the answer is yes, it is better.
> 
> Kicking with no hip "rolling" is a little faster, but will never have the same power.
> ...


 
Saturday, I had to break a board with the stepping side kick for my 5th gup test.  When I chambered up, I did rotate my foot so the sole was facing inward.  Then, I whipped out my leg to break the board.  As I'm a 5th gup, I haven't really practiced that inward rotation  much.  I probably should be doing that.

With the "roll" (maybe it should be called an arc), when we chamber up, we point our knee opposite of where we want our leg to kick as if we were going to knee someone on that side, then we circle it up and kick out.  

When I did the board break, my knee was angled opposite of where it is when when we roll with the side kick.

I hope that makes sense.


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## Montecarlodrag (Jun 1, 2008)

Yes, that's pretty much the way we do it.

The advantages are:

Much more powerful kicks.
Better balance
Longer kicking range.
You make your legs stronger, since it is harder to kick than not using the hip

Disadvantages:

A little slower (a fast opponent will intercept you with a punch or kick if you don't have enough speed)
It needs much more practice to achieve same speed as non hip kicking.
Errors are more noticeable in hyungs.
It is harder to master.

With years of training, you will find the best and fasterst way of hip rolling kicking fur you, because all bodies are different. some have larger legs, some have shorter or stronger, etc. everybody must find the best way to do it and achieve the most speed and power.

Regards.


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## Lynne (Jun 1, 2008)

Montecarlodrag said:


> Yes, that's pretty much the way we do it.
> 
> The advantages are:
> 
> ...


Thank you again.  So much to learn.  But that's what makes TSD so exciting.

I understand that in Tae Kwon Do, students do not roll their hips with the side kick.  I wonder if that's true?


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## Montecarlodrag (Jun 1, 2008)

Lynne said:


> Saturday, I had to break a board with the stepping side kick for my 5th gup test.


With proper practice, using the hip, you can break 3 wood boards, 1 1/4 inch each, no trick, real hard wood, real power breaking.


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## Montecarlodrag (Jun 1, 2008)

Lynne said:


> I understand that in Tae Kwon Do, students do not roll their hips with the side kick. I wonder if that's true?


They learn to do it, but in olympic competitions they need more speed than power, so the use only the fastest kick which can make the most points.

The kicks they use the most are not side kicks, they are another similar kick with no hip at all. We call it Bit-Chaki. It's like a roundhouse kick to the body with no hip, a little diagonal, but a lot faster.

In TKD competitions, speed is the key, so there applies the disadvantage I said about hip rolling. The do it only when the have a sure hit.

regards


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## Lynne (Jun 1, 2008)

Montecarlodrag said:


> They learn to do it, but in olympic competitions they need more speed than power, so the use only the fastest kick which can make the most points.
> 
> The kicks they use the most are not side kicks, they are another similar kick with no hip at all. We call it Bit-Chaki. It's like a roundhouse kick to the body with no hip, a little diagonal, but a lot faster.
> 
> ...


I've also learned the Bit-Chaki (didn't know the Korean for it) and we call it the shoe kick.  In kicking drills, we started off bouncing in a side stance and pivoted 180 degrees and kicked up at an angle.  If I remember, it's a good counter kick to a side kick.


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## JT_the_Ninja (Jun 1, 2008)

Look at it this way: your hip joints swing one way: forward and backward. You can stretch your leg out to the side, but there is no power that way...whatsoever...and you might dislocate something if you took impact with your leg out that way. 

The *only* difference between yup chagi (side kick) and dwi chagi (back kick) is the startup motion. The end result looks the same: your hips are pivoted so that your heels are pointed toward your target...which means your butt (pardon the expression) is also aimed at your target. This means that, as you side kick out, your hips rotate, along with your supporting foot, to keep everything in alignment. It isn't slow, really...it's correct technique. Anything other than that is more dangerous to you than to your opponent.


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## MBuzzy (Jun 1, 2008)

Lynne said:


> At 6th gup, we focused on rolling the hip with the side kick. It's awkward for me right now - sort of like the hook kick was at first (ok, the hook kick still feels awkward  ) Don't even mention the spinning hook kick...
> 
> Have you been taught to roll your hip with the side kick? Do you find it very powerful? Does it slow you down in sparring? Is is natural for you to roll the hip now? Do you always roll your hip when executing the side kick?


 
The biggest issue with the hip rolling is in the teaching I believe.  It can't really be helped, but to teach a side kick with the hip roll, it has to be taught in sections and it is a hard habit to break.  The key is making one single, flowing kick, without a stop for the hip rotation.  It is still a little slower for me when sparring, but definately much more powerful.  Although I have gotten to the point where it is now natural.  I actually use the rolled hip and non rolled hip depending on situation.



Lynne said:


> I've also learned the Bit-Chaki (didn't know the Korean for it) and we call it the shoe kick. In kicking drills, we started off bouncing in a side stance and pivoted 180 degrees and kicked up at an angle. If I remember, it's a good counter kick to a side kick.


 
Peetchagi or bit-chaki is a cool kick, very "showy" but it has limited use.  I've definately put a few through, but they aren't very powerful.  It is the "signature" kick in Soo Bahk Do, so we see it a lot.  It is basically just a reverse roundhouse kick.  I really can't see it being used as a side kick counter though, you have to be pretty close for it.


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## Kacey (Jun 1, 2008)

MBuzzy said:


> The biggest issue with the hip rolling is in the teaching I believe.  It can't really be helped, but to teach a side kick with the hip roll, it has to be taught in sections and it is a hard habit to break.  The key is making one single, flowing kick, without a stop for the hip rotation.  It is still a little slower for me when sparring, but definately much more powerful.  Although I have gotten to the point where it is now natural.  I actually use the rolled hip and non rolled hip depending on situation.



I teach it turning (rolling) the hip from the beginning.  Students who have learned to turn their hip when doing a side kick can easily change to _not_ turning their hip; however, IMHO it's much harder to learn a side kick without turning the hip and then add it in later.


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## MBuzzy (Jun 1, 2008)

Kacey said:


> I teach it turning (rolling) the hip from the beginning. Students who have learned to turn their hip when doing a side kick can easily change to _not_ turning their hip; however, IMHO it's much harder to learn a side kick without turning the hip and then add it in later.


 
I learned it initially without the hip roll and went back and learned it with the hip roll.  It is possible that this was my problem in trying to make it fluid.

When I was taught at least, the kick was broken down into steps basically....knee up (chamber), rotate body (and foot), roll hip and kick (rotate foot the rest of the way), leg, hips and foot back to chamber, leg down.


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## jehja43679 (Jun 2, 2008)

Hi Lynne.

In Tang Soo Do/Soo Bahk Do you ought to be using hip, but I think that if I understand your concept of "rolling the hip" correctly, what you're doing is trying to make your foot leave the ground and enter your attacker's target area in a very fluid motion, and taking up a line that is more circular to get there, kind of like making your heel loop inward before looping back out...

It seems sound, but there's a problem with it...

Your energy is wasted and you promote swinging of the leg.

In keeping with the notion that the shortest distance between two points is a straight line, and that the most efficient way to transmit energy is also in a straight line, your speed and efficiency decrease when you loop/roll/arc the kick...

It's the same reason that we're taught NOT to rise or bounce in a Taekwondo fashion when moving forward for a Center Punch.  If the hip rises and then falls, so too does the energy, which means rather than that energy traveling along the single, optimal, horizontal vector, it travels along two (horizontal and vertical), and makes the delivery both less powerful and imprecise.

My best to you for all your training.


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## CrimsonPhoenix (Jun 3, 2008)

Lynne said:


> I understand that in Tae Kwon Do, students do not roll their hips with the side kick. I wonder if that's true?


 
Ive been thinking about the 'rolling the hips when doing a side kick'  for the last several nights Ive been in class. Im a Tae Kwon Do student and the form Im learning for my next belt includes two side kicks. Now Im demonstrating the form to my instructors and I do the side kick like I normally do. My instructor stops me and tells me that Im rolling my hip, and that while its good to do so, its not the right kick for the form. So now I have to break my habit and relearn how to kick without rolling the hip. Not fun. 

The reason why he said that it wasn't right for the form was because you're supposed to side kick and backfist the person and while their weight is coming forward, you slam your elbow into their head. He said something along the lines of this: If you do the side kick and roll your hips you are essentially pushing them away from you. This does not put you in line for the elbow counter and even makes you lean backward a little. 

Personally my side kick is my worst kick (I'm working on it) and I think it's awkward to throw like you said. Maybe that's owing to the fact that I'm rolling my hip. So I don't really care for it right now.

To answer your question, I believe we are taught how to roll the hips when doing a side kick, but I guess I'm not at that level yet. Sorry, I kind of danced around the subject for the most part but I just can really relate to what you were talking about.


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## Montecarlodrag (Jun 3, 2008)

CrimsonPhoenix said:


> Ive been thinking about the 'rolling the hips when doing a side kick' for the last several nights Ive been in class. Im a Tae Kwon Do student and the form Im learning for my next belt includes two side kicks. Now Im demonstrating the form to my instructors and I do the side kick like I normally do. My instructor stops me and tells me that Im rolling my hip, and that while its good to do so, its not the right kick for the form. So now I have to break my habit and relearn how to kick without rolling the hip. Not fun.
> 
> The reason why he said that it wasn't right for the form was because you're supposed to side kick and backfist the person and while their weight is coming forward, you slam your elbow into their head. He said something along the lines of this: If you do the side kick and roll your hips you are essentially pushing them away from you. This does not put you in line for the elbow counter and even makes you lean backward a little.


 
kicking in hyungs is different when compared to performing an isolated kick.
In a hyung the movements are arranged for a defined purpose, so an attack depends on previous one and the next.

Doing a side kick then a elbow strike seems impractical to me, but I'd have to see the form in person to know if it's right or not. But you have to do as your instructor says anyway.

In my dojang, we Black belts study hyungs to understand the meaning of every attack. Many of them remain a mistery, while many are comprended.

We have a particularity, We have been members of different Federations: WTSDA, ITF, WMDKTSDF, Jin Shim Kwan, and Pan Am.
So, we learned the version of hyungs from each federation. Some hyugs are better in one Fed. and some are better in other.
For our personal teaching and development we keep and practice the version we believe is the best, but we have to perform the official one during Federation tests.

Regards.


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## CrimsonPhoenix (Jun 4, 2008)

Montecarlodrag said:


> kicking in hyungs is different when compared to performing an isolated kick.
> In a hyung the movements are arranged for a defined purpose, so an attack depends on previous one and the next.
> 
> Doing a side kick then a elbow strike seems impractical to me, but I'd have to see the form in person to know if it's right or not. But you have to do as your instructor says anyway.
> ...


 
Ah, thank you for the clarification. That explains things a bit better. Oh, and in the form it's a side kick and backfist, then you set your foot down, the arm goes straight out and hooks around the back of the target's head and you bring their head smashing into your elbow. I apologize if I wasn't clear on that. I wasn't sure how to explain it well at the time.

That is interesting that you've been members of all those different Federations. It sounds as though you can take what works best out of each one and use it as you need it. That's a good way to learn to branch out than if you just learn from one system / Fed.

Thank you again for sharing your knowledge.


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 4, 2008)

Lynne said:


> At 6th gup, we focused on rolling the hip with the side kick. It's awkward for me right now - sort of like the hook kick was at first (ok, the hook kick still feels awkward  ) Don't even mention the spinning hook kick...
> 
> Have you been taught to roll your hip with the side kick? Do you find it very powerful? Does it slow you down in sparring? Is is natural for you to roll the hip now? Do you always roll your hip when executing the side kick?


Cock sooner.
Sean


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## DMcHenry (Jun 4, 2008)

> in the form it's a side kick and backfist, then you set your foot down, the arm goes straight out and hooks around the back of the target's head and you bring their head smashing into your elbow


 
Sounds like the moves in Pyung-ahn Sah-dan.


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## DMcHenry (Jun 4, 2008)

> Have you been taught to roll your hip with the side kick? Do you find it very powerful? Does it slow you down in sparring? Is is natural for you to roll the hip now? Do you always roll your hip when executing the side kick?




Yes, absolutely, no, yes, yes.  

In fact, I was specifically working on this with my students last night (they are formerly TKD students).  They noticed a tremendous difference and were VERY happy with the results.


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## Montecarlodrag (Jun 5, 2008)

Doing Side kicks with no hip at all makes the kick to be more like a Shotokan Karate kick (there's nothing wrong with shotokan).
They hit with the border of the foot, while we hit with the heel.


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## foggymorning162 (Jun 12, 2008)

I think that it might help you to think of it more as flipping the hip than rolling because it is more of a snapped out movement as the rear foot pivots away from where your kicking your hip flips forward adding reach and power to the side kick. I find for me the step under side is my most powerful kick and it seems to make the hip roll seem more natural. Hope this helps, but just keep practicing and you'll get it.
We teach students the side kick as a three part move (load-kick-reload) for speed in sparring we leave out the first load not the hip roll IMO the load slows you down more than that flip does.


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## Lynne (Jul 24, 2008)

I have more clarification now.  One of my instructors referred to this move a modified sidekick.  We are to slide with it.  So, it can be useful in sparring.  You won't telegraph as quickly to your opponent since you are sliding in and kicking simultaneously.

Now I get it.  Phew!


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## DMcHenry (Jul 24, 2008)

Sounds like what I call/do a "hop kick".  I love those.  Hop roundhouse, hop side, hop hook, etc.

A great one to do is kicking with the rear leg, do a hop front kick.  Most people can't get away fast enough to escape being tagged with it.  You can pretty much chase them across the room with it.


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## Lynne (Jul 24, 2008)

DMcHenry said:


> Sounds like what I call/do a "hop kick". I love those. Hop roundhouse, hop side, hop hook, etc.
> 
> A great one to do is kicking with the rear leg, do a hop front kick. Most people can't get away fast enough to escape being tagged with it. You can pretty much chase them across the room with it.


 We did kicking drills once with hops.  We hopped with the back leg and did roundhouse and front kicks.  We only did that for one class.  I remember the rocking motion with the roundhouse throwing me off at first.  That's only because I'm one of those students who try to complicate things 

I wish we would do those drills more often. I forget to try them out in sparring.  I would have to really "think."

I will say I got a point in sparring the other night against a black belt when I used the sliding sidekick.  She wasn't expecting it at all.


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