# Are lapel grabs realistic attacks?



## celtic_crippler (Nov 24, 2008)

You better believe it! 

Funny thing happened to a student of mine last Friday....and I was wondering why he wasn't in class....

He had his vehicle struck in a parking lot which escalated into a physical confrontation. 

He was actually trying to be nice at the time as he was backing out of a space and noticed the car behind him doing the same so he stopped to allow them to go ahead. 

They hit his car anyway. He got out to check the damage and the other fella' came out cussin' and fussin'. 

My student asked the guy to calm down and pointed out there was no real damage, but he said it was a young guy (19-20 perhaps) and he had his friends with him so I can imagine the fella was puttin' on a show for his homies. 

He made the mistake of grabbing my student's jacket and yanking him in. My student said all he could remember thinking was "Mace of Aggression." LOL

Anyway, the poor boy dropped with the initial punch. My student said he couldn't have pulled him into the follow up elbow even if he wanted.... he said the guy went completely limp when he connected with his chin and dropped straight to the ground. ROFL

He said the guys buddies were like "Holy....!" My student helped them load the unconcious ill-tempered dude back into his car before they all left. Hey, I teach my students to be courteous after all...

BTW...he's a yellow belt who was just introduced to the technique "Mace of Aggression" a few weeks ago! Nice to see he's been practicing.


----------



## hkfuie (Nov 24, 2008)

I am just learning Kenpo and I love "Mace of Aggression."  Thanks for a great story.  Yeah, THAT's martial courtesy all right!    Sounds like he's really internalized that technique!


----------



## Twin Fist (Nov 24, 2008)

nice!!


----------



## KempoGuy06 (Nov 24, 2008)

good story

B


----------



## exile (Nov 24, 2008)

I love it!

There's plenty of good documented research on the frequency of grabs (including lapel grabs) as violence initiators in street attacks, and yes, they really do occur a lot. Probably the single most common move to begin an assault is a grab-and-punch. Train students to react fast and hard to the main grabs, and you've probably given them most of what they need to go home in one piece... the other guy, not so much! :lol:


----------



## terryl965 (Nov 24, 2008)

Very nice story Thanks


----------



## Sukerkin (Nov 24, 2008)

Now, now.  We've all been told many times that Martial Art's don't work 'on the street' ...  :angel: :lol:.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Nov 24, 2008)

I have seen several lapel grabs, had someone try one on me and also used it a couple of times myself way back in the day.  Practicing defense for a lapel grab is definitely important!


----------



## Gordon Nore (Nov 24, 2008)

celtic_crippler said:


> "Mace of Aggression"



I'm not familiar with this term/technique.

I've been taught a number of defenses arising from different kinds of lapel grabs. In fact, we teach a couple of basic, low-maintenance defenses on the first day.


----------



## seasoned (Nov 24, 2008)

I'm also not familiar with this term/technique.


----------



## Ninjamom (Nov 24, 2008)

Found this on YouTube:

Mace of Aggression


----------



## Gordon Nore (Nov 24, 2008)

Ninjamom said:


> Found this on YouTube:
> 
> Mace of Aggression



Ahhh. I use a back-fast to the beak. Then I take a step back and twist wrists one way or the other. But the MoA will certainly mess up someone's day too.

As to the specific terminology, does _Mace of Aggression_ have Asian roots or is that a convention of American Kenpo?


----------



## Drac (Nov 24, 2008)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Practicing defense for a lapel grab is definitely important!


 
We have quite a few of those in the Combat Hapkido curiculum..


----------



## KenpoDave (Nov 24, 2008)

So, his excuse for missing class...

"I bumped into a guy who wanted to learn Mace of Aggression!"


----------



## Twin Fist (Nov 24, 2008)

Gordon Nore said:


> As to the specific terminology, does _Mace of Aggression_ have Asian roots or is that a convention of American Kenpo?



In American Kenpo, "mace" refers to a closed fist


----------



## jks9199 (Nov 24, 2008)

Lapel grabs apply to many situations, not merely someone grabbing your lapel.  The same defenses often can be used against a push or shove, or even a punch to the chest.


----------



## KempoGuy06 (Nov 25, 2008)

Ninjamom said:


> Found this on YouTube:
> 
> Mace of Aggression


I like that a lot. Does anyone know if that is in SKK? Ive never seen that. Is it maybe taught at a higher rank? thanks

B


----------



## celtic_crippler (Nov 25, 2008)

Repetition is the key. 

We'd been working that tech all week so it was kinda' ironic that he would be attacked that way when he was. Bad timing for Mr. Temper. LOL


----------



## punisher73 (Nov 25, 2008)

Come on now...EVERYBODY knows that kenpo and other TMA's don't work in real life because NOBODY grabs your clothing...I mean you NEVER see two MMA guys try a lapel grab. REAL fights start with both people squaring off from 8-10 feet away in speedos with a guy yelling "Let's get it on!"


----------



## JTKenpo (Nov 25, 2008)

KempoGuy06 said:


> I like that a lot. Does anyone know if that is in SKK? Ive never seen that. Is it maybe taught at a higher rank? thanks
> 
> B


 

No, it is an American Kenpo tech.


----------



## KempoGuy06 (Nov 25, 2008)

JTKenpo said:


> No, it is an American Kenpo tech.


Thats a bummer, I might have to show that to my instructor or just keep it in my arsenal as an extra tool.

B


----------



## celtic_crippler (Nov 25, 2008)

KempoGuy06 said:


> Thats a bummer, I might have to show that to my instructor or just keep it in my arsenal as an extra tool.
> 
> B


 
Dude...it's not like the tech's copyrighted. If you like it and/or find it useful, take it and use it.


----------



## SA_BJJ (Nov 25, 2008)

Lapel grabs are useful in pulling guard and keeping your opponent from posturing up.  And then using them to render them unconscious.


----------



## KempoGuy06 (Nov 25, 2008)

celtic_crippler said:


> Dude...it's not like the tech's copyrighted. If you like it and/or find it useful, take it and use it.


will do. it seems like it would be more effective that some of the stuff i have

B


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Nov 25, 2008)

Here's a cleaner entry from a different lineage. I personally teach it with the low kick blended to stepping in, striking the inside of the knee first to disrupt his balance and stretch him out a bit (elongation), raking the foot down the inside of the shin on the way to the floor to collect his thoughts away from what my upper body is fixin to do, and stomping the foot to the ground authroitatively with his toes or arch in the way, just to rub salt in the wound annd keep his attention distracted. The first strike with the hands is timed to make contact to his head at the same time the foot stomp hits.

Additionally, target selection matters quite a bit. A hammerfist to the cheekbone is wasted time...too soft a weapon (for beginners...this is a white belt technique in American Kenpo) to too non-critical of a target. I aim for the temporomandibular joint and thrust my blow rearward and accross his midline & down to a space behind his right shoulder, and rake the weapon across the bad guys gace to whip his head at the neck, effecting a whiplash to mess with his vision, balance, and posture. Makes for a nice opening move to end an initial assault. Also ends up counting as "attacking his nervous system" by going after vestibular and proprioceptive effects, instead of just blunt trauma.





 
D.


----------



## SA_BJJ (Nov 25, 2008)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> Here's a cleaner entry from a different lineage. I personally teach it with the low kick blended to stepping in, striking the inside of the knee first to disrupt his balance and stretch him out a bit (elongation), raking the foot down the inside of the shin on the way to the floor to collect his thoughts away from what my upper body is fixin to do, and stomping the foot to the ground authroitatively with his toes or arch in the way, just to rub salt in the wound annd keep his attention distracted. The first strike with the hands is timed to make contact to his head at the same time the foot stomp hits.
> 
> Additionally, target selection matters quite a bit. A hammerfist to the cheekbone is wasted time...too soft a weapon (for beginners...this is a white belt technique in American Kenpo) to too non-critical of a target. I aim for the temporomandibular joint and thrust my blow rearward and accross his midline & down to a space behind his right shoulder, and rake the weapon across the bad guys gace to whip his head at the neck, effecting a whiplash to mess with his vision, balance, and posture. Makes for a nice opening move to end an initial assault. Also ends up counting as "attacking his nervous system" by going after vestibular and proprioceptive effects, instead of just blunt trauma.
> 
> ...


 Very nice!!!


----------



## kenpo3631 (Nov 25, 2008)

I like Mace of Aggression. The principle of Purposeful Compliance (_Yielding to pressure an opponent exerts against your body in order to utilize the force exerted against them_) is wonderful. I however teach it differently than what some have posted. I utilize an inward downward diagonal raking back knuckle, striking the opponent's temple, eye, bridge of the nose. That motion carries downward and ends up striking the opponent's left forearm (radial nerve) giving me a check on his height & width. I couple all of that with a right stomp to the opponents right foot.


----------



## JTKenpo (Nov 25, 2008)

kenpo3631 said:


> I like Mace of Aggression. The principle of Purposeful Compliance (_Yielding to pressure an opponent exerts against your body in order to utilize the force exerted against them_) is wonderful. I however teach it differently than what some have posted. I utilize an inward downward diagonal raking back knuckle, striking the opponent's temple, eye, bridge of the nose. That motion carries downward and ends up striking the opponent's left forearm (radial nerve) giving me a check on his height & width. I couple all of that with a right stomp to the opponents right foot.


 
Whatdoyaknow I have it the same way.


----------



## JTKenpo (Nov 25, 2008)

KempoGuy06 said:


> Thats a bummer, I might have to show that to my instructor or just keep it in my arsenal as an extra tool.
> 
> B


 

Ok don't tell anybody this is a big secret but try #2 (usually against a punch) against a one or two hand lapel grab and see if you find any similarities in the two techniques.  Now be warned there are people out there that will call this sacrelage and there are no such relations between the two (or other) systems of kenpo/kempo or any other such systems.  But then again sometimes the proof is just staring ya right in the face.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Nov 25, 2008)

Ninjamom said:


> Found this on YouTube:
> 
> Mace of Aggression


Groan... not the best example but yeah.
Sean


----------



## Touch Of Death (Nov 25, 2008)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> Here's a cleaner entry from a different lineage. I personally teach it with the low kick blended to stepping in, striking the inside of the knee first to disrupt his balance and stretch him out a bit (elongation), raking the foot down the inside of the shin on the way to the floor to collect his thoughts away from what my upper body is fixin to do, and stomping the foot to the ground authroitatively with his toes or arch in the way, just to rub salt in the wound annd keep his attention distracted. The first strike with the hands is timed to make contact to his head at the same time the foot stomp hits.
> 
> Additionally, target selection matters quite a bit. A hammerfist to the cheekbone is wasted time...too soft a weapon (for beginners...this is a white belt technique in American Kenpo) to too non-critical of a target. I aim for the temporomandibular joint and thrust my blow rearward and accross his midline & down to a space behind his right shoulder, and rake the weapon across the bad guys gace to whip his head at the neck, effecting a whiplash to mess with his vision, balance, and posture. Makes for a nice opening move to end an initial assault. Also ends up counting as "attacking his nervous system" by going after vestibular and proprioceptive effects, instead of just blunt trauma.
> 
> ...


A little over reach but better.
Sean


----------



## MJS (Nov 25, 2008)

celtic_crippler said:


> You better believe it!
> 
> Funny thing happened to a student of mine last Friday....and I was wondering why he wasn't in class....
> 
> ...


 
Great story!!  I'm glad that your student is ok.  As for the nature of the attack...yes, I agree it is a very realistic attack.  What I like about that, is the fact that the bad guy ties up one or in this case, both of his hands.  Pin those hands and basically you're free to punish them at will.


----------



## MJS (Nov 25, 2008)

punisher73 said:


> Come on now...EVERYBODY knows that kenpo and other TMA's don't work in real life because NOBODY grabs your clothing...I mean you NEVER see two MMA guys try a lapel grab. REAL fights start with both people squaring off from 8-10 feet away in speedos with a guy yelling "Let's get it on!"


 
LMAO!!!  Yes, and don't forget, if its not on tape, it never happened. Proof dammit....its all about the proof.


----------



## Doc (Nov 25, 2008)

punisher73 said:


> Come on now...EVERYBODY knows that kenpo and other TMA's don't work in real life because NOBODY grabs your clothing...I mean you NEVER see two MMA guys try a lapel grab. REAL fights start with both people squaring off from 8-10 feet away in speedos with a guy yelling "Let's get it on!"



Well I'll never get into a"real fight." Speedos? No way brother. Not on my fat ***.


----------



## Twin Fist (Nov 25, 2008)

Doc said:


> Well I'll never get into a"real fight." Speedos? No way brother. Not on my fat ***.




Doc,
i think i speak for everyone here when i say:

Thank You


----------



## KempoGuy06 (Nov 26, 2008)

Showed this little move to some of the guys at the dojo last night. They were all really impressed.

We worked SD drills last night and I supprised the black belt by using this one instead of one of my regulars and he was like  "holy crap! who taught you that". So I explained it and we worked it together with one of the green belts. 

B


----------



## kenpo3631 (Nov 26, 2008)

Doc said:


> Well I'll never get into a"real fight." Speedos? No way brother. Not on my fat ***.


 
You mean you don't want to be "Super Fly" :roflmao:  :asian: :asian: :asian:


----------

