# Leadership



## Tgace (May 6, 2004)

As kind of a tangent to the "successorship" threads around this board...I started thinking about some of the root causes (as I see them) of in-fighting over titles, rank etc. I think that to get past this stuff, people have to start exhibiting some sort of leadership. What is martial arts leadership? I found a good article (listed below)  that touches on some interesting points. Let me say up front that I am not saying that anybody in particular here/there or anywhere is a "target" that this stuff is directed at. Just an attempt at some constructive dialouge in a topic that many here are interested in.


http://www.chitoryu.com/leadership.htm

Leadership
Leaders are like Eagles, "Eagles don't flock-you have to find them one at a time."-H. Ross Perot

In Theory the difference between Martial Arts Leadership and Military Leadership is that in Theory, there is no difference!

Having read the above statement, one will quickly agree (especially if you have served in the military) that there are numerous differences in the two types of leadership while at the same time, there are numerous similarities between the two. In the military, basically speaking, one must remain in the armed services until they are released from service. In the martial arts however, one can leave whenever one decides to go, even without so much as a phone call to their teacher. In the military one has little recourse if they are physically and/or mentally abused by their superiors and even if they complain, normally, they are simply moved to another unit. Seldom is anyone totally released from serving. In the martial arts one can totally stop training whenever they feel that they have been treated bad and they never have to even give a reason unless they want to. Now having said all of this, I realize that one can just sit down, even in the military and refuse to comply, but when they are finally released from service it may be with a dishonorable discharge which could haunt them the rest of their life. So, the deterrent is certainly their to warrant their wanting to at least put in their time and then get out. There is very little negative effects suffered for anyone who joins a martial arts school, takes everything the teacher has to offer and then leaves when their feelings get hurt or when something shiner comes along. 

 In the last few years the military has been forced to make numerous concessions in order to obtain and retain soldiers.  As a general rule, so has the martial arts community. In many martial arts schools we now see all kinds of aerobic classes, kick boxing classes (and I don't mean real kick boxing classes), and anything else that the public takes a fancy to.  Few styles still train the same way that they did in the 1960's, 70's and even the 1980's. Not only have the people changed, but specifically, their reasons for wanting to train in the martial arts have also changed. When the reasons for training change, so must the training itself change. Few people today would return to a class night after night to receive a bloody nose, loose teeth, lumps on the arms and legs or even worse, but many of us did. Why? At the time, we were convinced that this was the way to train. We were convinced that if you didn't bleed a little, have a of broken nose, have a few stitches or loose teeth to boast about then your training was too weak. 

Even when a martial arts system takes the necessary steps by making the appropriate changes in order to make the art more appealing to the public, the system may still fail to bring in any large number of students. Why is this? The success of one system over another is, in most instances, not only a direct reflection of the senior instructors' leadership ability, but their potential leadership ability as well. I include both ability and potential ability in this equation because in many instances the senior teacher may possess fantastic martial technical ability, but be totally lacking in their ability to lead a large group of followers. Many leaders find that even with  leadership training, they still may be lacking the necessary characteristics to lead. 

Developing Followers or Leaders

Many karate organizations have fallen apart after the Senior Instructor's death due to the senior's lack of concern, fear or total inability to develop other leaders. Most senior teachers develop many followers, but few take the time and energy required to develop other leaders. There are many reasons for this and some of them are;  (1) Leaders are more difficult to develop than followers and therefore many seniors will never take the extra time and energy required to develop good strong leaders. (2) Leaders are inquisitive by nature and this is often viewed as disrespectful or threatening by the Senior, therefore it is safer and much more comfortable for the senior to simply develop followers. (3) Leaders want to lead and if not allowed to lead, may eventually simply break away and form their own groups in order to exercise their own leadership abilities. (4) Leaders are harder to find and to attract especially if the senior's attitude is only to develop the followers around him. (5) Many Seniors want to gain all of the credit for everything that is done and therefore will never develop the leaders around them for fear of the competition. {This reminds me of a valuable piece of information that I was once given while attending a military leadership course. "No man will make a great leader who wants to do it all himself, or to get all of the credit for doing it." by Andrew Carnegie.  I also remember another quote I read many, many times while attending Special Forces School at the John F. Kennedy Special Warfare Center, Fort Bragg, North Carolina. The quote was considered so important that it had been printed on a poster and placed beside the front door for every Special Forces Soldier to memorize.  The quote said; "Give a man a fish you feed him for a day; Teach him to fish and you will feed him for life." We Teach Men To Fish! United States Army Special Forces. Many Seniors are not interested in teaching men to fish, but instead they would rather have the student forever totally dependant on them. This will always result in a tragic end for the senior's martial art. No one man can ever accomplish what a group of enthusiastic, dedicated, motivated and coordinated leaders can accomplish.

Below I have listed a comparison of Senior Martial Artist who simply develop followers as opposed to those who develop leaders. 

It is only when we develop others, that we permanently succeed. -Harvey S. Firestone 

(1)     Seniors who develop followers need to be needed. Seniors who develop leaders want to be succeeded. 

(2)    Seniors who develop followers will develop the bottom 20%. Seniors who develop leaders will develop the top 20%.

(3)    Seniors who develop followers focus on the weaknesses of their people. Seniors who develop leaders focus on the strengths of their people. 

(4)    Seniors who develop followers will treat their people the same for fairness. Seniors who develop leaders will treat their leaders as if these leaders will someday carry on the system the senior teaches. 

(5)    Seniors who develop followers will hoard power. Seniors who develop leaders will give power away.

(6)    Seniors who develop followers will spend time with their followers.  Seniors who develop leaders will invest time with their leaders. 

(7)    Seniors who develop followers will grow by addition. Seniors who develop leaders will grow by multiplication. 

(8)    Seniors who develop followers will impact only the people that they touch personally. Seniors who develop leaders will impact people far beyond their own reach. 

Use power to help people. For we are given power not to advance our own purpose, not to make a great show in the world, not a name. There is but one just use of power, and it is to serve people.   George Bush 

Nothing great was ever achieved without enthusiasm. Ralph Waldo Emerson

Positive Leadership

Loyalty is a major factor in any martial arts system as well as the training of any martial artist. I once heard a very wise man say, "The reason loyalty is so often spoken of in the martial arts is because there is so damn little of it." In order for the student of develop loyalty toward the teacher, there must be respect. If the student does not respect the teacher then true loyalty can never exist. Genuine loyalty is always developed thru time and is a direct result of respect, therefore, it is virtually impossible for a student to express true loyalty to a teacher that they do not respect.  The student may initially admire and/or even fear the teacher, but eventually this admiration and fear must be replaced by genuine respect. True or Genuine Respect is not something that is just freely given, it must be earned, therefore anything that can be earned can be lost. How does a teacher earn the respect of the student? Some teachers think that the student should just blindly give them the respect, that they (the teacher) feels that he or she deserves. Personally, I think it is important to understand that the teacher bear the greater responsibility here, not the student. If the teacher wants respect, they must first earn it. After all the teacher has most likely been training in their discipline for many years while on the other hand the student may never have been involved in any activity that is even similar to the martial arts training they are undertaking. Therefore the teacher bears the greater responsibility to demonstrate the way. Not only must they demonstrate the way, but they must continue to demonstrate the way if he or she wants to command the respect of their students as well as their fellow instructors!

There are many prerequisites required in order to develop the respect and consequently the loyalty of the student.  The following are some of the most important. First and Foremost, the student must feel that the teachers is genuinely concerned with their welfare and safety. This means that the teacher  protects the student from harming themselves as well as allowing others to harm them. Second, the student must feel that the teacher respects them as a person as well as a student. Third, the student must feel that the teacher has something to offer them and that they are learning something well worth while. Fourth, the student must feel that they themselves are making progress and equally so that the teacher feels that they are making progress. Everyone wants to progress and therefore it is essential that this component be present. 

"The most effective leadership is by example, not edict." John C. Maxwell

Attitude is everything. Author; Unknown

Negative Leadership

There are many types of negative leadership. Each of these or a combination of them can easily destroy a good strong organization. Here I will mention a few that are often practiced in many martial arts organizations.  

Smart leaders believe only half of what they hear. Discerning leaders know which half to believe. John C. Maxwell

Psy-Ops & Disinformation  

While serving in the Army's 11th Special Forces Group, my MOS (Military Occupational Specialty) was 97B - Counter Intelligence Agent. Not only was the Counter Intelligence soldiers trained in basic military skills, various weapons, hand-to-hand combat, proper etiquette, collection and dissemination of classified information, signal intelligence and military law, we also spent a great deal of our time training in Psy-Ops (Psychological Operations) and Disinformation. Both Psy-Ops and Disinformation are primarily used against the enemy (Opponent), but each can also be used against one's own people. Many senior martial artist have and will use Psy-Ops and Disinformation to control their students as well as to pretend to be something they are not. When used in this manner, it is always a bad thing and will eventually result in the student's rightfully feeling that they have been used and/or deceived by the senior. There are no long term positive effects of their abuse and many good organizations have literally been destroyed by their misuse. Psy-Ops is anything that creates the desired psychological effect (good or bad, but usually bad) on the opponent or student, while Disinformation is the use of information that is not true, but that can be manipulated to be made to appear to be true in the eyes of the opponent or student.  

Many people want to put everything down in writing and while this certainly has it's merits, it is important to remember that true martial artist consider their word as well as their teacher's word to be their bond, they do not need to see it in writing. With this important fact in mind, it is easy to understand that when the teacher spreads information that the student knows is untrue or eventually finds out to be untrue, then the teacher will eventually lose the respect and consequently the loyalty of his student.  This is how it is; This is how it has always been; and this is how it must always be!

Hidden Agendas 

Hidden agendas can also be a major problem with destructive results for many martial arts organizations. Many Senior Instructors will make decisions based on hidden agendas. These Senior Instructors will seldom if ever request the expertise, experience and knowledge of their most senior people due largely in fact to the misconception that to ask for advise and then to accept and use this advice constitutes a weakness on the part of the Senior Instructor.  If in fact this type of Senior Instructor does request advise, in most cases, it is often nothing more than a smoke screen. This smoke screen is established for several reasons; (1). It allows the Senior Instructor to loudly proclaim that he did in fact illicit the advice of his Senior Advisors even though he never intended to heed or to make use of their advise. This appearance of requesting advise will be broadly advertised which will result in a feeling of warm unity and joint cooperation throughout the organization when in fact nothing could be farther from the truth. (2). It establishes the false assumption that the senior Instructor did not make the decision alone, when in fact the decision was made long before the advice was ever requested. (3). It allows the Senior Instructor to establish a scapegoat, someone to carry the blame when the Senior Instructor's idea fails. In many cases the Senior Instructor will  even go farther and openly state that he was given bad advise by someone, but out of the goodness of his own heart and being the good moral person that he is, he will not name this person, an act that would in fact be impossible anyway, especially since no such person ever existed. 

An important question for every leader: "Am I building people, or building my dream and using people to do it" John C. Maxwell

It is wonderful when the people believe in their leader; but it is more wonderful when the leader believes in the people. John. C. Maxwell

Character

Shamefully so, martial arts leadership can be like any other leadership. It is solely dependant on the individual leader's admirable or destructive character. Some people will tell you one thing to your face and then say something totally different behind your back. I am not referring to comments kept from someone in order to keep from hurting someone's feelings, but instead comments that are in most every case totally untrue and used in an attempt to discredit the one being attacked while at the same time attempting to increase the attacker's personal status. Whenever we run into someone like this, we need to remember that this is part of their character and you can bet everything you own, if they are talking to you about someone else, they are talking to someone else about you when you are not around. Generally speaking, these types of people will never change regardless of what happens. The only way that these people could ever change, would be for them to face the facts about themselves and most of them would never choose to do that.  Therefore, as long as this is part of who they are, they could not change even if they wanted to! 

Your Actions Speak So Loud, That I Can't Hear A Word You're Saying!-Author Unknown

My Father used to constantly remind me of the above quote and I have never forgotten it.  

The following is taken from the book "The 21 Indispensable Qualities of a Leader." written by Mr. John C. Maxwell.    "Anyone can say that they have integrity, but a person's actions are the real indicator of their character. Your character determines who you are. Who you are determines what you see. What you see determines what you do. That's why you can never separate a leader's character from his actions. If a leader's actions and intentions are continually working against each other, then look to his character to find out why."

Talent Is a Gift, but Character Is a Choice.-John C. Maxwell

I once had a friend who's karate Sensei was like the person I have just described above. My friend left the organization he had been a member of for more than 30 years.  Sometime later I heard, from a mutual friend of ours, that he had left his organization. Eventually, he called me and I ask him what had happened. To this he said, "Jim, I could never get used to someone standing in front of me, giving me a kiss while at the same time reaching around behind me and twisting a knife in my back. Sensei would talk about the other Seniors to me and then I would here from one of them that he was talking about me to them. I have been dealing with this for many years hoping that Sensei would eventually change. Not only did he not change, but he got worse as he got older.  He kept everything he could from all the seniors and became very upset and suspicious when ever he found out that any of his seniors had been communicating with each other. Regardless of the fact that we were all supposed to be working together, nothing could have been further from the truth. Sensei went out of his way in an attempt to sabotage everything we attempted to do. Eventually, I was forced to finally make a decision. Will I continue to compromise my own moral character for someone who would do this and the answer I finally came up with was, absolutely not. I left the organization I loved so much, but I could not follow this man any longer." 

Leaders Cannot Rise Above the Limitations of Their Character -John C. Maxwell

Four years later, during a conversation with my friend I discovered that his teacher's organization had virtually exploded from within.  Nearly every one of his most Senior followers had left him. My friend went on to say that after conversations with some of the remaining students, his was told that his Sensei never took responsibility for what had happened. He went on to say, "Everyone knew what had happen, even those members who stayed knew that it was all Sensei's doings, but Sensei could and would never admit that he had literally destroyed his own organization with no one to blame but himself."

Some people will change mates, jobs, homes, cars and friends, but never, ever think of changing themselves!-Author nknown

I remember reading an old Chinese proverb years ago that fits both good and bad leadership perfectly:  "Water can support a ship and water can also sink a ship."             

Some Senior Organizational Instructors will play with their organizations, constantly changing things and consequently jerking their people around in an attempt to see just how many hoops they can make their students jump through. Eventually, the students will realize that getting mad is nothing more than a waste of time and consequently the student will get tired of jumping at every whelm the teacher has. The student will eventually either isolate themselves from the teacher or simply leave the organization completely.


"Anger is just like picking up a hot piece of coal and trying to throw it at the person you hate. You are the only one that gets burned."- Buddha


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## c2kenpo (May 7, 2004)

I think the best words are 



NUFF SAID!


Wonderful post thank u for posting it a nice reminder even to myself about leadership and humilty. One of the traits a good citizen should have, martial artist or not.
 :asian: 

David Gunzburg


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## Cruentus (May 7, 2004)

Kind of a dry, long read at first, but read it anyways, Jabroni's! (so says the Rock, about 5 years ago).

Awesome read; hit the nail on the head with a lot of things. I especially liked: "No man will make a great leader who wants to do it all himself, or to get all of the credit for doing it." by Andrew Carnegie.

Thanks Tgace.

 :asian:


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## TigerWoman (May 8, 2004)

Hi Tgace,
I guess I've been thinking alot about this post for the last couple of days.
It mirrors alot of the problems in our school. Our school has been around for about 20 years. I am not only the oldest (in age) student but oldest member (8 yrs) and second to the highest rank. Every other black belt I knew before me is gone.  What is wrong with that picture?  

I am tempted to give a copy of that post to my master if it would do any good - but any suggestion I have ever given has fallen on deaf ears.  To say he is close-minded to a woman has been observed in class by many.  I can't change him if he doesn't want to change.  He says he is not perfect - the epitomy of humility, yet professes his views as authority that can't be challenged. Those that have, don't win.

We had an major fallout a couple of years ago. I lost respect for him as a esteemed teacher and it was no minor infraction - alot of people left the school including 3 of my family.  I was very upset but I vowed he would not prevent me from getting my 2nd dan which I had worked for (and still am) so I humbled myself and have taken the punishment, slights-allowing others lower to teach in front of me, walking around me and not teaching, circumventing me from teaching etc.  He continues to point out to others about respect in the vein that it should be given regardless, since he is a master and teacher of the school.  I don't disrespect him, although I had trouble in my conscience bowing to him after his digression.  (Difficult to bow to someone you don't respect and has hurt you)  

But I am a Christian and I went to him and told him I forgave him, but for myself.  He has never shown remorse, or sorrow for the havoc he wreaked.  His "I'm sorry" was hollow and his promise to me to not continue, broken a few days later. 

Few know all of the circumstances but as much as I try to forget it, it is still there because he is not the master that I had come to respect. Therefore, in my mind, I question EVERYTHING he tells me.  He gives me exercises that he knows I am vulnerable to injury so I have to assert myself and not do them.  I progress only because I ask the other 2nd dan questions. I progress only on my own willpower to go on.  Somedays are good and I want to be there, most days actually are good exercise and I remind my self that I'm there to exercise.  Then he will "remind" me again that I am nobody. So I identified alot with why black belts quit.  I have wanted to quit many times.

My master gives me no "food" yet I pay him tuition.  I get no respect because he erred and has no humility to make amends.  But I do have fortitude and perseverance to not let him rob me of my goal. And I am a constant reminder in line, that he made a mistake and following that many more mistakes.  

Thank you for posting that.  It helped me.


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## Ceicei (May 8, 2004)

Tgace,

Thank you for posting!  At first, it was hard to get into reading it, but once I had started, the rest got really interesting.  It is very thought-provoking.  Thank you again.

- Ceicei


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## Tgace (May 9, 2004)

Point: Advanced martial arts rank dosent equal advanced leadership capability.


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## TigerWoman (May 9, 2004)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Point: Advanced martial arts rank dosent equal advanced leadership capability.



Considering that alot of masters have their school(s) as their ONLY principle source of income, they must be doing something right to keep it going.
With that said, what are the mental requirements for a master to achieve that rank?  Anyone know? Its not a MBA after their last name.  They are not psychologists, theologians, philosophers, marriage counselors (like mine likes to think he is).  

I went to art school for two years and practiced graphic design/illustration for a living for 25 yrs.  I have a master rank in that. Does that make me better than anyone else?  Say a Phd in Statistics? NO

Even an MBA these days means nothing. Just a starting point to get a real job.  So I get the feeling that most new masters just "wing it" by trial and error. See what works and what doesn't.  And hope that you have enough wisdom to see how to make things better.  Being open-minded is a considerable asset to be able to learn.  My master is not. Being a leader takes more than physical ability.  Being a master and teacher takes more than physical  ability.  And I think your post, Tgace, says alot of it.


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## Rainman (May 9, 2004)

TigerWoman said:
			
		

> Considering that alot of masters have their school(s) as their ONLY principle source of income, they must be doing something right to keep it going.
> With that said, what are the mental requirements for a master to achieve that rank?  Anyone know? Its not a MBA after their last name.  They are not psychologists, theologians, philosophers, marriage counselors (like mine likes to think he is).
> 
> I went to art school for two years and practiced graphic design/illustration for a living for 25 yrs.  I have a master rank in that. Does that make me better than anyone else?  Say a Phd in Statistics? NO
> ...




I think you use the word master too loosely...  Master in the US really means master instructor...  Very interesting post by tgrace, describes the commercialism of the combative arts.   I have seen instructors like the one being described before.  They made the mistake of calling what they did a beneviolent dictatorship.   No such thing exists, autocracy such as a monarchy- maybe.    Seems to me you are paying to be there, is a business proposition at this point- You pay he teaches or refunds your money and you train somewhere else.  I don't see what else can exist.  

However, I am not privy to the preceeding battle that caused the rift-  The other side is why did he not ask you to leave?  Is strange to me, either one of you has the oppertunity to sever the connection yet you both choose to be around each other.   

Just my thoughts- really don't understand why either of you chooses to live this way...


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## TigerWoman (May 9, 2004)

When I get my 2nd dan belt, I will make a choice.  If things don't improve despite whatever I do - work at his tournaments, try to teach etc. then I will quit.  But I will leave on my terms, not his.  It was not my transgression and there are black belts who know the story but do not want to jeopardize their good will - their test next year. Besides they are practically relatives. So much for standing up for what you believe in. But in my heart and others, I know I did what was right. Integrity has a price.


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## Gary Crawford (May 9, 2004)

Tgrace-Great article! Thank you for posting that.I think I'll make copies of that for the parents of our child students to read.


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## Tgace (May 10, 2004)

When Im at work I expect people to "respect my authority" as long as Im doing my job. If Im not "dealing" with them or am off duty, I dont expect people to treat me any different than the next guy. I always get a kick out of martial arts teachers who want to be called sensi/master/etc. when you run into them at the store.....self-esteem/ego problems.


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## Robert Carver (May 10, 2004)

Good thread and on a topic that is definately not covered enough. About five years ago, I wrote an article on this very topic. Go to http://www.usjujitsu.net/articles/leadership.htm if you would like to check it out.


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## Rick Wade (May 10, 2004)

I think good leadership is developed through mentorship.  I have parties at the house once a month and we work out discuss Martial Arts philosophy and do alot of talk story.  It's a good time had by all but the most important part is the mentoring that happens while your not in a structred dojo.

Respectfully


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## Tgace (May 10, 2004)

Saw this in a flyer for a martial arts program...



> If you had the choice, would you want your child to be a great leader or a great follower? As a leader, your child ultimately will make decisions based on his or her judgment (upon which you have had an influence) and not the judgment of others. Leadership is the ultimate defense against the forces of peer pressure. Thats why developing leadership skills are essential to our instruction. In martial arts, leadership responsibility is dictated in the form of rank. As rank is increased, responsibility in class and to fellow students is increased. Students learn how to deal with leadership challenges and are given more opportunities to develop this skill.



While I can see the logic in this, giving students more responsibility to go with their rank, is that all there is to developing a martial arts leader?


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## Ceicei (May 10, 2004)

Tgace said:
			
		

> While I can see the logic in this, giving students more responsibility to go with their rank, is that all there is to developing a martial arts leader?


No. It is like your article that started this thread mentioned, there is more than just responsibility in the process of becoming a leader. Development of character and ethics would need to be developed and these traits cannot be wholly taught in the dojo.

- Ceicei


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## Tgace (May 10, 2004)

I know  ...just pointing out the common rank/leadership structure in martial arts. 

I suppose another question should be why do we expect martial arts seniors to be leaders? Probably because of "martial" associations with military structures, and the hirearchal (sp?) rank structures that seem to imply some sort of "superiority" (beyond simple physical training) the higher up you go. Is a "master" really a "leader" or just a person with physical skills? Is a master gymnast or marathon runner a "leader"? I know... techniques of violence and combat are being taught and some sort of responsibility needs to be associated with that, but expectations of leadership? You need to bring that in with you and like Ceicei said, the dojo isnt the primary source for that.


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## loki09789 (May 11, 2004)

Tgace said:
			
		

> I know  ...just pointing out the common rank/leadership structure in martial arts.
> 
> I suppose another question should be why do we expect martial arts seniors to be leaders? Probably because of "martial" associations with military structures, and the hirearchal (sp?) rank structures that seem to imply some sort of "superiority" (beyond simple physical training) the higher up you go. Is a "master" really a "leader" or just a person with physical skills? Is a master gymnast or marathon runner a "leader"? I know... techniques of violence and combat are being taught and some sort of responsibility needs to be associated with that, but expectations of leadership? You need to bring that in with you and like Ceicei said, the dojo isnt the primary source for that.


The use of Master in craft/art fields almost always is in reference to the skill of the craftsman or artisan within that specific field, Master (As in master of people, in charge, overlord) is not the primary meaning of the term.

Leadership requires specific, directed and applied skills that can be honed by 'increased responsibility.'  It is only part of the equation though.  If martial arts teaches leadership this way, why doesn't it teach technique in this sink or swim kind of model?  Increase the responsibility with the rank (with no mention of what leadership skills are or any instruction beyond lip service) would equote to using a new technique or skill in sparring only as the primary teaching tool.  It doesn't work the best, and in some ways can be counter productive.

Military models/Business models have specific topic training for leadership because it is like teaching - it isn't something you 'pick up' along the way, it is a skill, science and art that must be understood and mastered (oops).  In both cases I see a lot of people who are left to learn on the job with very little guidance, or poor examples, to work with.

I said it in the Successorship, rank, title.. thread also, but if you want to instill leadership in children via organizational associations then groups like Boy Scouts of America are probably the best place for that.  They promote social/environmental awareness, personal health (mental/physical), leadership/character skills, self reliance, education.... where martial arts classes really only promote martial arts.

This is not to say that martial arts isn't a good developmental experience, adult or child, but we need to be realistic about what we expect to get out of it.


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## StraightRazor (Jun 21, 2004)

Good Post! Just bringing back to the top again.


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## TigerWoman (Jun 21, 2004)

Tgace said:
			
		

> I know  ...just pointing out the common rank/leadership structure in martial arts.
> 
> I suppose another question should be why do we expect martial arts seniors to be leaders? Probably because of "martial" associations with military structures, and the hirearchal (sp?) rank structures that seem to imply some sort of "superiority" (beyond simple physical training) the higher up you go. Is a "master" really a "leader" or just a person with physical skills? Is a master gymnast or marathon runner a "leader"? I know... techniques of violence and combat are being taught and some sort of responsibility needs to be associated with that, but expectations of leadership? You need to bring that in with you and like Ceicei said, the dojo isnt the primary source for that.



I just re-read that. Well, I do expect a master/instructor who lectures others and me in a group setting (RECENTLY) (class, testings) about integrity, honesty, respect etc. to be a role model himself.  That means to try darn hard to follow what he preaches and to apologize when he doesn't. Otherwise he isn't a master/teacher of anything in my opinion.  He's only a hypocrite.TW


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## Rick Wade (Jun 22, 2004)

TigerWoman said:
			
		

> I just re-read that. Well, I do expect a master/instructor who lectures others and me in a group setting (RECENTLY) (class, testings) about integrity, honesty, respect etc. to be a role model himself.  That means to try darn hard to follow what he preaches and to apologize when he doesn't. Otherwise he isn't a master/teacher of anything in my opinion.  He's only a hypocrite.TW



I have to agree with you It is like in High School if your son or daughter had a teacher that was arrested for robbery and then released until his trial would you want him teaching your sibling?  All Teachers by definition are role models and there fore should be held to a higher standard.  If the teacher doen't like this responsibility then choose another job.

Respectfully

Rick


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## loki09789 (Jun 22, 2004)

Rick Wade said:
			
		

> I have to agree with you It is like in High School if your son or daughter had a teacher that was arrested for robbery and then released until his trial would you want him teaching your sibling? All Teachers by definition are role models and there fore should be held to a higher standard. If the teacher doen't like this responsibility then choose another job.
> 
> Respectfully
> 
> Rick


Though I agree that teachers don't get 'leadership' training as part of their teacher training, I still say the hole in this comparison is that Most martial arts teachers/masters/seniors don't get either teacher or leadership training in a formal sense.  There are some excellent and inspired teachers of martial arts, but how much better might they be or how much faster might they learn how to teach/lead (and reduce the negative impact on students) if there was a formal program for teaching as an art, just like the systematic art is taught.

I know I have beat this drum before but military leadership development programs aren't a bad model to adapt to a civilian martial arts program because instructional training, counselling (as in giving feedback on rank/promotion testing results in a positive way), leading group fitness... all are part of NCO/Leadership training.


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## TigerWoman (Jun 22, 2004)

...we're talking on TWO threads right now on the same subject.


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## loki09789 (Jun 22, 2004)

TigerWoman said:
			
		

> ...we're talking on TWO threads right now on the same subject.


Just proves my point about common sense not being common , the overlap of teacher/leader seems like it should be obvious, but it isn't so obvious to people in educational circles.  There are tons of classes on teaching method xyz or abc, but there really are not any classes on teacher/leadership responsibility or getting, on the average, middle middle class 'kids' of 19-25 who have never really had this much responsibility in their lives to understand how significant it is AND how to take charge of that responsibility.

Historically, teachers -especially of martial arts - were either aristocratic family members/leaders who were also military leaders groomed from early childhood on to take that responsibility OR monk/priests of religions that incorporated martial arts into the religious life.

Even in our western/USA educational history, religious groups were the original conveyers of knowledge, so teachers were either actual religious order members, or held to that same standard.

There is room for personal leadership/instructor style but, like martial arts, that can only really be a GOOD style if it is built up/out of a foundation.


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## kenpo tiger (Jun 22, 2004)

Tgace said:
			
		

> I suppose another question should be why do we expect martial arts seniors to be leaders? Probably because of "martial" associations with military structures, and the hirearchal (sp?) rank structures that seem to imply some sort of "superiority" (beyond simple physical training) the higher up you go. Is a "master" really a "leader" or just a person with physical skills? Is a master gymnast or marathon runner a "leader"? I know... techniques of violence and combat are being taught and some sort of responsibility needs to be associated with that, but expectations of leadership? You need to bring that in with you and like Ceicei said, the dojo isnt the primary source for that.


I vote for no one becoming a master UNTIL he exhibits the leadership skills.  There are 'masters' out there who are VERY poor examples of human beings.

I have been told many times by many people that the title 'sensei' only means 'one who came before' and not teacher, instructor or who knows what else some of these guys make up for themselves.  Yes, the belt system is based upon lower belts following the example of upper belts (the hierarchy to which you referred), but it doesn't necessarily follow that the behavior is always exemplary and to be followed; only the technical skills imparted are.:asian:


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## TigerWoman (Jun 22, 2004)

That was really good KT.  To teach, I really think there should be not only a black belt test, but a teaching program that follows.  I saw a new black belt send his first students to a testing.  I was embarrassed, I don't know if he was, on how poorly his students performed. Most didn't pass in fact, for the first year of testings. But that's just technical skills, memory, balance, technique etc.  I was just surprised that he sent his students to the test in front of their parents too. He loves the art but he is teaching for the extra income mainly, IMO.


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## kenpo tiger (Jun 22, 2004)

In my dojo our teaching class begins when we reach Brown I, which is the last colored belt rank.  We must have 200 hours of teaching before we can test for black.

Teaching my Tiny Tigers on Saturday morning is the highlight of my week.  They are my little angels.


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## loki09789 (Jun 22, 2004)

kenpo tiger said:
			
		

> In my dojo our teaching class begins when we reach Brown I, which is the last colored belt rank. We must have 200 hours of teaching before we can test for black.
> 
> Teaching my Tiny Tigers on Saturday morning is the highlight of my week. They are my little angels.


Learning hands on is one of the best ways IMO.  THe 200 hour requirement is an excellent idea.  Is there any mentorship/class planning guidance as part of these 200 hours?  Do you critique the class with your instructor in an evaluative way so that you can improve on what you did well/work out what you could do better?  It is really exciting to hear of teaching being so seriously promoted.

I think a combination of required teaching time AND guided instruction is a good way to go.


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## loki09789 (Jun 22, 2004)

kenpo tiger said:
			
		

> I have been told many times by many people that the title 'sensei' only means 'one who came before' and not teacher, instructor or who knows what else some of these guys make up for themselves.


That may be the literal/technical translation but the semantic use, even in Japan for Sensei is for 'teacher.'  Public school teachers are referred to as Sensei just as readily as martial arts instructors or dance instructors.... I don't know about the Japanese equivalent to Ph.D's or Grad. students though.  There may not be one.

Now the interesting thing about that literal definition is how the Japanese culture views teachers.  Teachers should be 'one who came before' or IMO someone who is merely farther along the training path.  That doesn't automatically equate to "Master" but it does equate to what is very popularly 'buzz' termed "life long learner" in teacher educational training.  Unfortunately, this idea of being a life long learner as opposed to the 'top dog' gets as much lip service in professional teaching circles as it seems to in Martial arts circles.


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## Tgace (Jun 22, 2004)

Human Nature??


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## kenpo tiger (Jun 23, 2004)

I always discuss what I've taught as well as how the kids did with my instructor.  He is enthusiastic about letting me try new games with the little ones as a learning tool for them.  He will give criticism, but it's always done in a constructive and encouraging manner.  As far as mentoring, there isn't a program per se.  There is a class that all instructors may attend to review the techniques to be taught the following week as well as to ask questions and bounce ideas off each other.  We're a small school, so we all see each other at least twice a week in class and can work with each other.  Because I teach children's classes, it's usually a team effort (if you've ever been alone teaching a kids' class you know how beneficial it is to have an additional pair of eyes and hands) and I have the benefit of working directly with my instructor. I occasionally have another student teacher partner, which makes me the senior instructor; that was a little scary at first, kind of like being a parent for the first time and wondering if you're doing things correctly, but we are good friends and I think the kids enjoy having female instructors for a change.


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## kenpo tiger (Jun 23, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> That may be the literal/technical translation but the semantic use, even in Japan for Sensei is for 'teacher.' Public school teachers are referred to as Sensei just as readily as martial arts instructors or dance instructors.... I don't know about the Japanese equivalent to Ph.D's or Grad. students though. There may not be one.
> 
> Now the interesting thing about that literal definition is how the Japanese culture views teachers. Teachers should be 'one who came before' or IMO someone who is merely farther along the training path. That doesn't automatically equate to "Master" but it does equate to what is very popularly 'buzz' termed "life long learner" in teacher educational training. Unfortunately, this idea of being a life long learner as opposed to the 'top dog' gets as much lip service in professional teaching circles as it seems to in Martial arts circles.


Exactly my point.:karate: 

As an aside, should titles such as sensei, master, sabonim, sifu, etc. be used by a student if the one demanding (NOT earning - demanding) that the title be used isn't worthy of it in the student's opinion because of his/her actions, behavior, attitude???:angel:


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## mj-hi-yah (Jun 23, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> Learning hands on is one of the best ways IMO. THe 200 hour requirement is an excellent idea. Is there any mentorship/class planning guidance as part of these 200 hours? Do you critique the class with your instructor in an evaluative way so that you can improve on what you did well/work out what you could do better? It is really exciting to hear of teaching being so seriously promoted.
> 
> I think a combination of required teaching time AND guided instruction is a good way to go.


Hi Paul,



I belong to the same school as KT and, like you, I also happen to be a certified teacher.  Sorry that I dont have time to get into that part of the debate from earlier in this thread just now.  



First this is a very interesting thread, and there's a lot more I'd like to contribute to it, but time is short at the moment, so I have to keep it brief.  We have a class that is a black belt preparatory class one night a week, but as we were all preparing for our black belts and beginning our teaching at the same time the subject of much of my and my learning partners' questioning revolved around our teaching.  Since we remember 90 percent of what we teach to others it also benefits us in preparing for our black belts to be knowledgeable teachers.  Consequently our prep class has evolved into more of a teacher training class.  This was very important to me because I was not comfortable presenting material to other students that I felt I barely had a grasp on myself.  After teaching for the first few times you see how much you need to know and a black belt becomes more of a product of being a good teacher than a primary goal.  



In addition to this class, I have spent the last year of my private lessons with my instructor working on a written compilation of all of the 170 self defense techniques that we need to learn for a black belt, and with my instructor's blessing have made them available for all of the students and teachers in the school to use as a reference and for consistency in learning/teaching.  We all have different ways of doing things and it can be frustrating, and also ironically at the same time enriching, for students to work with different instructors.  It is my goal to make it a little less frustrating by providing these notes.  



We do discuss things after classes are over, especially if we see a need to, but there is not at this time any formal evaluation process.  When we teach our instructor is always available to go over something with a student if we feel we need his help, and that is something I really appreciate and have called on him from time to time to do.  I'm not sure how the other instructors feel about it, maybe KT can speak to this, but I would like to see a little more guidance from my instructor on drills, but LOL  he tells me I make him work hard :uhyeah:...so one thing at a time.  I do enjoy the freedom to try different things though, but wouldn't mind a little more guidance in that department.  



I would also like to see him develop a school library of reference materials for all to use including video tapes (which he's agreed to make with me, but we have time conflicts at the moment), but again *hee hee* one thing at a time.  



MJ :asian:


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## loki09789 (Jun 23, 2004)

mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> Hi Paul,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


HOLY COW!  This sounds really great.  Is this something that your instructor did on his own or is it part of an organizational program?  Good stuff.


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## mj-hi-yah (Jun 23, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> HOLY COW! This sounds really great. Is this something that your instructor did on his own or is it part of an organizational program? Good stuff.


He initiated the black belt prep class and the rest has evolved from our needs within the class.  IMO he's a great teacher himself  - very capable, patient and caring so he was receptive to our requests.  I would actually like to see him rename that class teacher training and also allow a class for the physical preparation for getting a black belt, as that part of that class has given way to the teacher training (although we train the techniques hard in that class).


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## pete (Jun 23, 2004)

hey mj, 

gotta say i'm on the other side of the universe from you on this one.  standardized notes can lead to a homoginized approach, where techniques and forms turn into the hokey-pokey... you know, put your right foot in, take your right foot out... motion without purpose, music without soul.

rather than that, i like to go with a looser model, one where the student learns how to move with consistency and see the underlying principles that are introduced at one level and are extrapolated as one progresses through the system.  being less concerned with getting each movement correct as written, but to have it all make sense and develop a pattern for executing them.  in the long run, this internalizes the system and eliminates the memorization.  the correct movements have a habit of manifesting themselves when the principles are adhered to. 

interestingly enough, everyone will have a different way of doing things, and in my opinion, we have all been taught a little differently by our instructor.  this is a good thing, and a good thing made better as the strengths and desires of each student are exemplified in their individual technique.

also, i have always taught ALL of my classes without our head instructor being on the premises.  i felt funny initially, but he assured me that he was confident in my ability and always got good feedback afterwards.  now i see how that was the right call on his part, and have come to appreciate the total freedom and trust.  i work hard to prepare for my classes, and offer the students who attend a piece of myself in addition to the material.

the beauty of it is now the lower belts have the opportunity to learn the same material differently from several of us, and rather than be frustrated, be encouraged to explore what works best for them.

see ya on the mats...

pete.


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## kenpo tiger (Jun 23, 2004)

Okay you two little chatterers (and people say I talk too much!)

First of all, Pete, you know I side with you on the issue of 'standardizing' the techs we learn by writing them down and distributing them.  MJ, while I appreciate your doing that and sharing the fruits of your labors with us all, I have been keeping my own journal of the techs since I started kenpo and refer to it when necessary.  Of late I've adopted more of Pete's approach because I've found, like he has, that we've all been taught a little differently.  Also, since I have trained in both Japanese- and Korean-based ma, I look at things a bit differently than you both do. You have the benefit of input from the shotokan and aikido side, and Pete from tai chi/qigong - and BOTH of you have the benefit of having ma spouses so you have great sounding boards - and practice partners on-site.

You also have to look at it from the perspective that each of us is interested in and concentrates upon different aspects of kenpo when we teach.  I've learned a lot from you both by attending the classes you teach.  I have the benefit of having always taught children in my past arts and am most fortunate that I am permitted to continue to do so in kenpo.

As to the bb prep class versus a teaching training class, I agree that both are indicated in our curriculum, if only for providing a forum in which those of us 'prospectives' can practice and have the benefit of our instructor's input. 
Just by the way, I think we do pretty well on our own, but it's good to hear it from the top.:samurai:


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## mj-hi-yah (Jun 23, 2004)

pete said:
			
		

> hey mj,
> 
> gotta say i'm on the other side of the universe from you on this one. standardized notes can lead to a homoginized approach, where techniques and forms turn into the hokey-pokey... you know, put your right foot in, take your right foot out... motion without purpose, music without soul.
> 
> ...


  LOL... I figured as much, and that is what makes the world go around my friend.  While initially there may not be soul in the music at the early stages of learning there is certainly purpose behind the music.  I do not believe that correct movements manifest themselves, especially for beginning students in the mechanical phase.  Some students find it challenging enough to simply coordinate their hand and foot movements let alone be able to grasp a principle behind that movement.  You can present it along the way but I believe it is best absorbed after the movement is properly learned and this goes especially for the kinesthetic learner, for them this is most important as they learn through physical movement, and are unable to absorb nonphysical explanations until they have mastered the physical movement itself. In this case principles should not be introduced early on as it can hinder their learning.  I think proper mechanics must be taught and practiced.  Practice does not make perfect...perfect practice makes perfect.  What is perfect execution for us as individuals may vary and should be allowed for however.   

Don't get me wrong, I love the music.  To me though, the music comes from understanding the basics and later the symphony is completed when you internalize those basics and are able to make it your own.  Just as in music, notes are available for people who desire them for their learning and future creations and to give the students a common place from which to begin and a basis for creating in music a wonderful score, in MA technique that can be actualized.  
Students _are _complaining about how differently they are being taught in our school (I was approached by two students just last night on this very subject).  Please understand that their point of view is very different, because we have the luxury of being able to say that we did not have to learn from student instructors, and while occasionally our instructor may have refined or changed something in a technique there was usually good reason attached to that change and he was our only point of reference for all of our learning.  As well, he has become much more consistent in his teaching as he has evolved in his learning.  Also being that he is the primary instructor/evaluator of your skills as a student in his school we all must demonstrate a certain amount of proficiency of techniques on a test for him.  This becomes a bit more difficult for the student to grasp when they are taught things in completely different ways.  It may be difficult for them to see the value in their exposure to different teachers at this point, because the  frustration for them comes when they are expected to demonstrate their techniques for our instructor and are shown corrections by him.  Unlearning something that has been fully committed to memory is the most difficult thing for a student to do.   
In addition, I am most comfortable with my instructor being available for me as a teacher.  As the owner of our school he is the teacher's teacher, and I will always check with him when I have a question.  I feel I would be doing my students a disservice if I didn't.  On occasion when he was not available I held off on presenting something if I was not sure of it.  Our teacher need not be on the premises for you to know that if you have a question his door is always open.  When I approach him it is usually after a class is over, but for the few times I've had major questions I'm glad he's there on the nights I teach.  

I agree with you on one thing, that the students should be encouraged to explore what works for them.  I think they do get something out of learning from us all, but it's important especially for beginners to have a common reference point from which to begin.  There is time for the beautiful music to be made later on...just like that fourth grade band concert I had the pleasure of hearing this year!  



Yes Pete, see ya on the mats... 

MJ :asian:


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## mj-hi-yah (Jun 23, 2004)

kenpo tiger said:
			
		

> First of all, Pete, you know I side with you on the issue of 'standardizing' the techs we learn by writing them down and distributing them. MJ, while I appreciate your doing that and sharing the fruits of your labors with us all, I have been keeping my own journal of the techs since I started kenpo and refer to it when necessary.


  I totally encourage you to do so!  We learn from taking our own notes.  I know I told you when I first shared with you, as I tell everyone, but I'll say it again...you should always take your own notes.
MJ:asian:


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## Tgace (Jun 23, 2004)

While all this stuff is related to leadership and is important, I think that "Leadership" should be defined..The Army defines it as



> Leadership is influencing peopleby providing purpose, direction, and motivationwhile operating to accomplish the mission and improving the organization.


http://www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/fm/22-100/ch1.htm#1-4

Is an excellent resource for leadership training/issues.


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## mj-hi-yah (Jun 23, 2004)

Tgace said:
			
		

> While all this stuff is related to leadership and is important, I think that "Leadership" should be defined..The Army defines it as
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/fm/22-100/ch1.htm#1-4


Thanks for the definition...obviously in our school we all care about these things on this we can hopefully all agree!


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## Tgace (Jun 23, 2004)

The resource I quoted...*http://www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/fm/22-100/toc.htm* summarizes as so.​*[size=+2][/size]*​*[size=+2][/size]*​*[size=+2]SUMMARY[/size]*​2-119.  As an Army leader, leadership in combat is your primary and most important challenge. It requires you to accept a set of values that contributes to a core of motivation and will. If you fail to accept and live these Army values, your soldiers may die unnecessarily and you may fail to accomplish your mission.

2-120.  What must you, as an Army leader, BE, KNOW, and DO? You must have character, that combination of values and attributes that underlie your ability to see what needs to be done, decide to do it, and influence others to follow you. You must be competent, that is, possess the knowledge and skills required to do your job right. And you must lead, take the proper actions to accomplish the mission based on what your character tells you is ethically right and appropriate for the situation.

2-121.  Leadership in combat, the greatest challenge, requires a basis for your motivation and will. That foundation is Army values. In them are rooted the basis for the character and self-discipline that generate the will to succeed and the motivation to persevere. From this motivation derives the lifelong work of self-development in the skills that make a successful Army leader, one who walks the talk of BE, KNOW, DO. Chapter 3 examines the environment that surrounds your people and how what you do as a leader affects it. Understanding the human dimension is essential to mastering leader skills and performing leader actions.


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## Rich Parsons (Jun 23, 2004)

> Leadership is influencing peopleby providing purpose, direction, and motivationwhile operating to accomplish the mission and improving the organization.



Is it possible to accomplish only a part of the list, or must you always accomplish the whole and complete list?

Thank You for your replies


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## pete (Jun 23, 2004)

> I do not believe that correct movements manifest themselves, especially for beginning students in the mechanical phase. Some students find it challenging enough to simply coordinate their hand and foot movements let alone be able to grasp a principle behind that movement.



have you ever done or seen someone do a technique that just doesn't look right, or feel right?  then go on to force it to work?  then it just doesn't work on a body?  well, my point here is the understanding of the underlying principles will point to the problem and the correction will unfold.... and when it does, it will transcend the single "problem" technique and apply to many.

its never too early to teach proper principles, and not just as words but as physical demonstrations for every learning style and every individual.



> Students are complaining about how differently they are being taught in our school (I was approached by two students just last night on this very subject).



I haven't received any complaints.  Whenever someone has pointed to a difference between instructors or a question regarding a particular movement, i always go back to the principles.  we work it both ways, and if the differences are both "correct" in regard to principles and effectiveness, i leave it to the student.  i'll say "i do it this way, but that way is good too!"

Like I say, I haven't seen much in the way of frustration in my classes.



> we have the luxury of being able to say that we did not have to learn from student instructors



i've learned plenty from student instructors and peers...and continue to~



> and while occasionally our instructor may have refined or changed something in a technique there was usually good reason attached to that change.



as we should also...



> Our teacher need not be on the premises for you to know that if you have a question his door is always open.



it wasn't by my request that he's left me alone for my classes.  i understand his door is open, he's made that clear, but i accept the responsibility and his trust in my methods.



> I think they do get something out of learning from us all, but it's important especially for beginners to have a common reference point from which to begin.



yes, a good understanding of the principles, and how they are applied in the system.  from there, everything is possible...

ciao for now...

pete


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## mj-hi-yah (Jun 23, 2004)

As I sense that Tgace was asking us in a very nice way to remain on topic, if you like Pete we can discuss this further on our own....anytime!  Seeing where other people stand is always a good thing!


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## Tgace (Jun 23, 2004)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Is it possible to accomplish only a part of the list, or must you always accomplish the whole and complete list?
> 
> Thank You for your replies


I would say you need all of them if you want to be a good leader.



> Leadership starts at the top, with the character of the leader, with your character. In order to lead others, you must first make sure your own house is in order. For example, the first line of _The Creed of the Noncommissioned Officer_ states, "No one is more professional than I." But it takes a remarkable person to move from memorizing a creed to actually living that creed; a true leader _is_ that remarkable person.


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## terryl965 (Jun 23, 2004)

I've reed all of this forum and not one place or sentence does anybody mention to be humble, I know a great leader is one that can express himself, one that is able to correct someone without making them feel less than a person..... A humble leader can get more out of a person than a dictator can......GOD BLESS AMERICA


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## mj-hi-yah (Jun 23, 2004)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Leaders are like Eagles, "Eagles don't flock-you have to find them one at a time."-H. Ross Pero


  Interesting quote... 

One of the things that my instructor does, or at least did when my son was studying there to try and develop leadership qualities in his young students is the SWAT Team, which stands for: Special Winning Attitude Team.  The children who are given this honor are those who show qualities like responsibility, self discipline and respect.  They wear a patch indicating their hard work and dedication.  These kids are invited to help out with the younger groups to serve as an example of excellence.  

MJ :asian:


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## TigerWoman (Jun 23, 2004)

This is a great thread.  We also have had a black belt class but interest/motivation dwindled to just three of us.  Why, because it was not providing what we needed to improve.  We didn't really need an exhausting workout, mind-numbing one move at a time-in unison-form, and many more etcs.

We had as Tgace stated, no "purpose, direction or motivation".
We were being trained to the lowest common denominator not to the highest or even to the median.

And yes, I think humility is one of the most important values that a master/instructor/teacher has to have, not just say, but show - being able to say I'm sorry, was one of the real reasons I came to trust my master and the reason, I have stopped. A leader must have confidence but more, humility.
Also, he has to value a woman's opinion.  I feel in the past, I was listened to but not considered. Then a MAN BB would come in with the same idea, and it would be promoted. Yeah, sexist. Not good. We women are the organizers, thinkers, workers of an organization. (just like we are the glue in our families  ).

I think the reason for teaching the teachers together in an instruction program is to get together ONE way to teach the students so that it is not confusing.  This is the master's responsibility to have some form of continuity.  This is the way it is done and everyone follows that.  If you learn step one from that teacher, you will know how he teaches that step one.  I truly wish we had GOOD teacher instruction classes. 

I took my own notes about his way of teaching so that being 40-something then, I could remember.  Then I got books and changed whatever conflicted so if I needed to reference it, it was there.  But the details have to be left to the master, they are not in the book.  And while some can be written down not all, most come from memory and have to be passed to the students with some continuity in the teaching. TW


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## Tgace (Jul 18, 2004)

Found this link. Its is VERY interesting.

http://uechi-ryu.com/oldsite/evolution_of_martial_arts_politi.htm


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## mj-hi-yah (Jul 18, 2004)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Found this link. Its is VERY interesting.
> 
> http://uechi-ryu.com/oldsite/evolution_of_martial_arts_politi.htm


Tgace this is a great link. The history is interesting, but the strategies presented after the summary are a great way to personally and proactively counter some of the unfortunate politics of martial studies in modern society. I've had the pleasure of communicating with a number of people through MT who are in their own way doing some of the things mentioned here, but there are still the zealots and money hungry and or rank focused types abound. I wonder are they simply a product of a cycle of modern commercialism of the arts. If you've only existed in the darkness than without someone to show you the light you may come to believe that darkness is all there is. There is much less of this in an art like Aikido, as it is nonprofit and "tuition" is kept very low and is collected only as a means of maintaining the school. No one draws a salary. People teach because they desire to pass on their knowledge of the art. 



BTW This link also goes well with my obsession thread...the part about being more well rounded...I've got to do more with my other hobbies! :uhyeah:


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## Tgace (Sep 2, 2004)

Just a general question....

What does your instructor do/not do that makes him/her a good/bad leader? In other words, how do you know one when you see one?


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## Rick Wade (Sep 2, 2004)

Simple my Instructor does what he says he is going to do.  He is there for me in more than just a Kenpo state of mind.  

V/R
Rick


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## mj-hi-yah (Sep 2, 2004)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Just a general question....
> 
> What does your instructor do/not do that makes him/her a good/bad leader? In other words, how do you know one when you see one?


I know my instructor is a good leader, because when he speaks we all want to listen to what he has to say. A good leader takes control of a given situation and directs people into action, and the people move even if it is not something they really feel like doing or want to do like shoulder rolls for instance. You do them because all he need do is ask. You respect and trust him because he has given you reason to. He is perceptive, adaptable and publicly, unquestionably, even handed with his students. He has knowledge to share and confidently demonstrates it. He is a very good leader :viking2: and I know it because people vote with their feet and he gets a great turnout!

MJ :asian:


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## terryl965 (Sep 3, 2004)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Just a general question....
> 
> What does your instructor do/not do that makes him/her a good/bad leader? In other words, how do you know one when you see one?


 Well first and formost you have to know your students, I know each and every student of mine to a point that I can relate to them about there life and not just there MA. You have to know there capabilities, there quirks, and above all respect them for who they are not what you would want them to be, Each person is different you cannot train everybody the same you can teach the same techinique but everybody as there own piece of the system that they can conveyed to the instructor. Ever been to a tournament and watch 50 Poomsee,Kata or form done each one the same but then each one a little different that is what make a person unique they have to be able to adjust for ther students... GOD BLESS AMERICA


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## loki09789 (Sep 3, 2004)

Good leaders/teachers of martial arts make tough decisions, whether kicking people out because they are a detriment to a group or standing up to seniors when issues arise that need to be handled because inaction can lead to the breakdown of a group.  My instructor has done both when the cost of doing so was high, but the right thing to do.

Also, since MA 'leaders' are primarily seen as instructors, they should be examples of always seeking knowledge and growth and encourage that in their people as well.  Jerome always leaves a revolving door policy that you can see, train, attend seminars with who ever you want in or outside of Kenpo/Escrima.  Why? Because it is about learning to defend yourself NOT artistry first in our program.  If you expose yourself to other ways of fighting/training, you can compare and contrast and evaluate more honestly if what you are doing is for you or not.  Yes it might slow down the learning curve or create questions/confusion, but the process of working through those 'problems' and finding the answers that work for you make you a stronger, more confident self defense artist because you KNOW what you know is right for you because you have not existed in a stylistic vacuum.

At the higher levels, we even had to find a topic of exploration for ourselves to apply our martial/conceptual abilities to so that we can 'make it our own' by doing it on our own.


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## pete (Sep 3, 2004)

The single most important ingredient found in a leader is integrity.  without integrity, there will eventually be a lack of trust and questioning of motives by the group. integrity includes the qualities of honesty, consistency, and concern. 

A leader does not have to say much, but whatever is said must be unequivocal.  A leader must communicate directly and with integrity. 

A leader must have a plan. it is not acceptable for a leader to "wing-it" or be easily led astray by external distractions or forces from within the group. yet, a leader must be flexible enough to understand the needs of the group and changes affecting the plan and consider options to enable individuals to reach their potential.

An effective leader will lead by example, not to create carbon copies of himself, but will instill the principles and ethics required for each disciple to grow in their own way. A leader must care enough about the success of the group to motivate each as an individual, while concern enough for each individual to motivate the group as a unit. 

A leader must be understanding and accepting of his own limitations. Without such understanding, he cannot help others with integrity.  To do so, a leader must exhibit humility.   

A leader must know when a goal has been reached, either by the group, by an individual, or by himself.  A leader must be confident enough to "let go" and encourage individual exploration... realizing some may not return to him, or return with different ideas. A leader must recognize the achievements within the group, and possibly the development of a peer, or equal, who is ready to lead their own group.

A leader must also be a disciple.  He must continue to grow and develop as he develops others.  He must put the same trust in his mentor as he would expect from those under his mentoring.

A leader is not gender-specific... i've used the masculine for ease in writing purposes only! 

pete


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## SMP (Sep 5, 2004)

True leaders lead because others choose to follow them.  If people choose to follow a instructor  they do not respect it is their choice  -  no one is forcing them.


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## ppko (Sep 5, 2004)

SMP said:
			
		

> True leaders lead because others choose to follow them. If people choose to follow a instructor they do not respect it is their choice - no one is forcing them.


A very good point


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## TigerWoman (Sep 5, 2004)

SMP said:
			
		

> True leaders lead because others choose to follow them.  If people choose to follow a instructor  they do not respect it is their choice  -  no one is forcing them.



That's pretty black and white. What if you want to continue the martial art and that is the only way.  You can once have high respect for your teacher, and if lost, then just a common respect.  But, respect can be regained, it is not impossible.  Humility on the part of the instructor who does not have respect is the key and of course, the time to build it back.  Of course, if you never respected your instructor, why join in the first place?  TW


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## MichiganTKD (Sep 5, 2004)

For me, the choice is easy. I cannot follow leaders I do not respect. There are Master Instructors within our Organization that I do not respect. I respect their rank, but would never choose to call them my Instructor because I do not respect them as people and as representatives of Tae Kwon Do. At best, in their presence I tolerate them and nod my head when they speak.
If it came down to it, I would follow my own path rather follow someone who has not earned my respect. They are not leaders.

For example, and I know some will disagree with me, I do not consider George W. Bush a leader. I consider him someone who lucked into his circumstances. Without his last name he'd be nothing.
H. Ross Perot was a good example of a leader. Key word "was". Is he now? I don't know.


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## SMP (Sep 6, 2004)

TigerWoman said:
			
		

> That's pretty black and white. What if you want to continue the martial art and that is the only way. You can once have high respect for your teacher, and if lost, then just a common respect. But, respect can be regained, it is not impossible. Humility on the part of the instructor who does not have respect is the key and of course, the time to build it back. Of course, if you never respected your instructor, why join in the first place? TW


 

Tigerwoman - how do you distinguish between high respect and common respect ? I do agree that respect can be regained if some one has not done something to bad.


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## TigerWoman (Sep 6, 2004)

Common respect is to a stranger in the street, a fellow human being. For an acquaintance I know a little about, more. For someone who has skills, is courteous, can teach me, that would go up a notch.  If he professes integrity but also has it (tested integrity) that would  go up considerably.  If he not only thinks about himself but trys to put others first, that would go up considerably. 

I am in that very process of working with someone who is trying to regain respect. What he did hurt alot of people. Bad enough. I have also known others.  We are a "human" race.  We make mistakes. Some people make worse mistakes, evil mistakes because I believe they are sick, mentally. Those that cannot mentally come back cannot be respected ever, especially if they would think nothing of doing the same "crime" again. If you can't trust and there is no remorse, there can't be much respect, other than you can respect the fact that they could potentially hurt you.

But those that have remorse, humility for their acts and seek to change and improve themselves, with some degree of distrust, depending on their offense, we do let them do steps back to acceptance and respect. TW


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## SMP (Sep 6, 2004)

Can you learn from an instructor you don't consider a leader?


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## pete (Sep 6, 2004)

SMP said:
			
		

> Can you learn from an instructor you don't consider a leader?



BINGO! 

one does not have to be a strong leader to instruct or educate, and conversely, an effective leader is not necessarily always the best teacher of a specific skill.  

we should look at the roles of teacher and leader from the perspective of student and disciple... 
and keep them clear as we teach, learn, lead, and follow.

pete


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## SMP (Sep 6, 2004)

very good analogy


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## rmcrobertson (Sep 6, 2004)

Rule #1:

Anybody who claims to be a leader, or who has attended any sort of leadership classes (with the significant exception of those in the military or police), and who hasn't apologized, is not a leader. They're hucksters.

Ross Perot appears to have been a weird little creep. But Molly Ivins says different, somewhat, so I am probably wrong about this.

Leaders are made," by history, culture, circumstance. Planning to be a leader is a lot like planning to be Christ.


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## Tgace (Nov 10, 2004)

While its kind of specific to LEO Leadership, this is an excellent article about what traits make a good leader.

http://www.neiassociates.org/sergeant.htm


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## chinto01 (Nov 12, 2004)

Great article and thanks for the info.


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## Tgace (Dec 23, 2004)

"People ask the difference between the leader and the boss. The Leader leads. The Boss drives."-Theodore Roosevelt


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## ghostdog2 (Dec 24, 2004)

A question, posed respectfully, to many who have posted to this thread:
Are you investing a bit too much of yourself in your dojo? Presumably you have spouses, boy/girl friends, siblings, friends, family, hobbies and interests. Not to mention school or a job; Maybe even a career. All existing outside the MA world. Why/how would you give so much power to a MA instructor? Are you looking for a guru or a good workout? Why would anyone listen, other than politely, to a MA instructor's ideas about anything beyond the technique he /she was demonstrating at the moment?
Could it be that the instructor is, in many cases, doomed to failure because of the unrealistic expectations of the students? Are you there to learn MA or to be lectured on morality and responsibility? There is no better place to learn the former than a dojo. As for the latter? Look elsewhere or risk real "mis-information" and disappointment. If one expects to get all his needs met under one roof-and help teaching the kids sound values and good morals while we're at it-look somewhere else, anywhere else, but for goodness sake, not to some part time phys. ed. teacher who calls himself sensei and expects a bow in the bargain. As my kids would say,Duuhhh, Dad. Reality check.
T'gace's post was excellent. To finish on topic, I should add that I do not expect to find a lot of leaders at the top of the MA world. But that's not why I'm there.


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## Tgace (Apr 30, 2005)

How you can be an effective leader.

Are leaders born or made?


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## Rick Wade (Apr 30, 2005)

ghostdog2 said:
			
		

> A question, posed respectfully, to many who have posted to this thread:
> Are you investing a bit too much of yourself in your dojo? Presumably you have spouses, boy/girl friends, siblings, friends, family, hobbies and interests. Not to mention school or a job; Maybe even a career. All existing outside the MA world. Why/how would you give so much power to a MA instructor? Are you looking for a guru or a good workout? Why would anyone listen, other than politely, to a MA instructor's ideas about anything beyond the technique he /she was demonstrating at the moment?
> Could it be that the instructor is, in many cases, doomed to failure because of the unrealistic expectations of the students? Are you there to learn MA or to be lectured on morality and responsibility? There is no better place to learn the former than a dojo. As for the latter? Look elsewhere or risk real "mis-information" and disappointment. If one expects to get all his needs met under one roof-and help teaching the kids sound values and good morals while we're at it-look somewhere else, anywhere else, but for goodness sake, not to some part time phys. ed. teacher who calls himself sensei and expects a bow in the bargain. As my kids would say,Duuhhh, Dad. Reality check.
> T'gace's post was excellent. To finish on topic, I should add that I do not expect to find a lot of leaders at the top of the MA world. But that's not why I'm there.




I think Leaders come in several different shapes (for lack of better words).  

Ministers are leaders but yet we all have different levels of devotion.

Teachers (in School) are leaders and our children have different levels of devotion to School work.

And Instructors (Sense   are leaders and every student has a different level of devotion just like the rest of society and there leaders.

Our President is a leader and yet we had citizens that don't like him and even defect to other countries as well as sell secrets.

So I think it is our responsibility as Person to pick the people in our lives that have a positive influence and try to be let that person be a positive influence on you therefore you can be a positive influence on someone else.

It is our responsibility to be good role models to students.  

Just my thoughts.

P.S. My Instructor is only 6 months older than me and an excellent role model both inside and outside of the School setting.

I only work with him in Kenpo once a week for about three hours per class.

All of my children are learning Kenpo in some for or another.  they as well as my wife and me still have other activities and family time.


V/R

Rick English


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## Tgace (Nov 28, 2005)

From _The Stuff of Heroes: The Eight Universal Laws of Leadership_ (Longstreet Press, 1988) William A Cohen, Ph. D.

"The Combat Model"

1. Maintain Absolute Integrity
2. Know Your Stuff
3. Declare Your Expectations
4. Show Uncommon Commitment
5. Expect Positive Results
6. Take Care of Your People
7. Put Duty Before Self
8. Get Out in Front


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## arnisador (Nov 28, 2005)

I just finished this leadership book:
It's Your Ship: Management Techniques from the Best Damn Ship in the Navy, by Michael Abrashoff

Simple but good advice.


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## RickRed (Dec 1, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> From _The Stuff of Heroes: The Eight Universal Laws of Leadership_ (Longstreet Press, 1988) William A Cohen, Ph. D.
> 
> "The Combat Model"
> 
> ...


 
What are some examples of these ideas in action?


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## Tgace (Dec 1, 2005)

Simplified......

Maintain Absolute Integrity: Actually trying to live up to all the high falutin' stuff you babble on about in internet forums would be a start.

Know Your Stuff: Actually know some of the stuff you talk about and be able to do/show it.

Declare Your Expectations: Have some sort of plan, just saying "Im going to lead this organization into the next phase" isnt enough.

Show Uncommon Commitment: Dont ditch ideas/people/missions so easy.

Expect Positive Results: Dont be so paranoid.

Take Care of Your People:Enough said.

Put Duty Before Self: Dont think that everything is about YOU.

Get Out in Front: Do your own dirty work, have some guts, deal with your own problems, be a leader and "lead". Dont use other people as shields/pawns/tools.


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## tshadowchaser (Dec 1, 2005)

Very well said


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## Tgace (Dec 7, 2005)

http://www.fortliberty.org/military-library/leadership.shtml



> USMC Leadership traits
> 
> INTEGRITY
> Uprightness of character and soundness of moral principle. Absolute truthfulness and honesty.
> ...


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## DrBarber (Dec 12, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> As kind of a tangent to the "successorship" threads around this board...I started thinking about some of the root causes (as I see them) of in-fighting over titles, rank etc. I think that to get past this stuff, people have to start exhibiting some sort of leadership. What is martial arts leadership? I found a good article (listed below) that touches on some interesting points. Let me say up front that I am not saying that anybody in particular here/there or anywhere is a "target" that this stuff is directed at. Just an attempt at some constructive dialouge in a topic that many here are interested in.
> 
> 
> http://www.chitoryu.com/leadership.htm
> ...


 
I cut a lot of this post for the sake of brevity.  The basic point that want to make is that you are Right on Target, TG.  Leadership is more than a title or ranking in a corperation, military or martial arts context.  Leadership is behavior.  Bad behavior means bad leadership.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


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## Tgace (Dec 12, 2005)

One of my favorite parts

http://www.chitoryu.com/leadership.htm



> Character
> 
> Shamefully so, martial arts leadership can be like any other leadership. It is solely dependant on the individual leader's admirable or destructive character. Some people will tell you one thing to your face and then say something totally different behind your back. I am not referring to comments kept from someone in order to keep from hurting someone's feelings, but instead comments that are in most every case totally untrue and used in an attempt to discredit the one being attacked while at the same time attempting to increase the attacker's personal status. Whenever we run into someone like this, we need to remember that this is part of their character and you can bet everything you own, if they are talking to you about someone else, they are talking to someone else about you when you are not around. Generally speaking, these types of people will never change regardless of what happens. The only way that these people could ever change, would be for them to face the facts about themselves and most of them would never choose to do that. Therefore, as long as this is part of who they are, they could not change even if they wanted to!


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## Blotan Hunka (May 29, 2006)

Nice thread. Worth a bump. I have been reading about Theodore Roosevelt lately so I thought Id add this.

http://www.bartleby.com/58/6.html


> A YEAR or two ago I was speaking to a famous Yale professor, one of the most noted scholars in the country, and one who is even more than a scholar, because he is in every sense of the word a man. We had been discussing the Yale-Harvard foot-ball teams, and he remarked of a certain player: "I told them not to take him, for he was slack in his studies, and my experience is that, as a rule, the man who is slack in his studies will be slack in his foot-ball work; it is character that counts in both."
> 
> Bodily vigor is good, and vigor of intellect is even better, but far above both is character. It is true, of course, that a genius may, on certain lines, do more than a brave and manly fellow who is not a genius; and so, in sports, vast physical strength may overcome weakness, even though the puny body may have in it the heart of a lion. But, in the long run, in the great battle of life, no brilliancy of intellect, no perfection of bodily development, will count when weighed in the balance against that assemblage of virtues, active and passive, of moral qualities, which we group together under the name of character; and if between any two contestants, even in college sport or in college work, the difference in character on the right side is as great as the difference of intellect or strength the other way, it is the character side that will win.





> All kinds of qualities go to make up character, for, emphatically, the term should include the positive no less than the negative virtues. If we say of a boy or a man, "He is of good character," we mean that he does not do a great many things that are wrong, and we also mean that he does do a great many things which imply much effort of will and readiness to face what is disagreeable. He must not steal, he must not be intemperate, he must not be vicious in any way; he must not be mean or brutal; he must not bully the weak. In fact, he must refrain from whatever is evil. But besides refraining from evil, he must do good. He must be brave and energetic; he must be resolute and persevering. The Bible always inculcates the need of the positive no less than the negative virtues, although certain people who profess to teach Christianity are apt to dwell wholly on the negative. We are bidden not merely to be harmless as doves, but also as wise as serpents. It is very much easier to carry out the former part of the order than the latter; while, on the other hand, it is of much more importance for the good of mankind that our goodness should be accompanied by wisdom than that we should merely be harmless. If with the serpent wisdom we unite the serpent guile, terrible will be the damage we do; and if, with the best of intentions, we can only manage to deserve the epithet of "harmless," it is hardly worth while to have lived in the world at all.
> 
> Perhaps there is no more important component of character than steadfast resolution. The boy who is going to make a great man, or is going to count in any way in after life, must make up his mind not merely to overcome a thousand obstacles, but to win in spite of a thousand repulses or defeats. He may be able to wrest success along the lines on which he originally started. He may have to try something entirely new. On the one hand, he must not be volatile and irresolute, and, on the other hand, he must not fear to try a new line because he has failed in another. Grant did well as a boy and well as a young man; then came a period of trouble and failure, and then the Civil War and his opportunity; and he grasped it, and rose until his name is among the greatest in our history. Young Lincoln, struggling against incalculable odds, worked his way up, trying one thing and another until he, too, struck out boldly into the turbulent torrent of our national life, at a time when only the boldest and wisest could so carry themselves as to win success and honor; and from the struggle he won both death and honor, and stands forevermore among the greatest of mankind.


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## matt.m (May 29, 2006)

When I first picked up Corporal in the Marine Corps I was told by a few Sergeants and a Staff Sergeant the following:
1.  Leadership is a lonely place.  Not everyone will like your decisions etc.
2.  If you are not a strong leader then no one will care what your rank is.
3.  Without integrity you have nothing.  
4.  To be a good leader, you must be a better follower.

I have led troops in combat.  I have also been a sergeant who was led by a private.  He was the better man for the job.

I will tell you all a neat story of my pop.  In 2003 at the Moo Sul Kwan national convention Bill Wallace was our guest of honor.  He taught several classes over the course of the weekend.  Everyone was in awe, I mean everyone.  It isn't every day you get to talk to a world champ after all.

Anyway my father was teaching a hapkido class of 100 students and a messenger came and told him that one of Bill's classes was to begin in 20 minutes.  Dad got all of the groups attention and made the following comment "I am done teaching for now, everyone go and learn from Bill Wallace."  "You guys get to train with me all the time, go learn something valuable from a world champion."

We voted with our feet by staying for an extra hour with dad.  To me that is the epitome of leadership, non militarily speaking of course.  Dad was humble and truly wanted everyone to leave to learn from Bill.  Not one soul moved, we all stayed and trained.

Just as a side note:  I wear a leg brace for each knee.  Bill has had an accident, where he could no longer train in Judo.  I got a few minutes of one on one time with him and learn some of his training techniques.  He is a very nice person, a very quality human being.


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