# Training Injured



## Cryozombie (Jun 11, 2005)

So, last Sunday I wrecked out on my bike. Walked away with a case of roadrash, a bruised face, and I have an AC separartion in my shoulder.

  The last part is the only bad part, and its... painful, to say the least.

 My instructor dropped me an email today suggesting I should come do light training with my injury, to learn how to move, well, i guess while injured.

  I _think_ its a good Idea, and I trust my instructor has my best interest in mind, but at the same time am worried about making the injury worse. I'm going back to the doctor for a follow up exam monday and I will talk to him about what is an acceptable level of activity, of course... but how many of you train when injured, or train with people who have injuries?

 Is this a good idea? A bad idea? Is it normal for people to do this? Am I having anxiety about training like this for no reason?


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## Jmh7331 (Jun 11, 2005)

Unless your Instructor is a Dr., I would get a 2nd opinion.


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## Don Roley (Jun 11, 2005)

I do it. But I make sure that everyone knows that I am injured if they work out with me. At any point you should be able to say that you will not do the technique or that you had better sit down and take a rest from training.

Hell, there is one guy in Japan here with a bad back. When it acts up I know I am going to get a call from him about going to training since he does not want to train with an unknown person who may try to body slam him.

So, train only in things you feel will not injure you, be willing to sit out training at any point and train only with people who you trust and know youare injured.


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## silatman (Jun 11, 2005)

A guy in our class did the same sort of thing, him and his mates were towing each other on a bodyboard along the beach behind a car (real clever hey) when the eneivetable happened and he came off, he had one week off and came back telling everyone he was fine just a little sore and not to worry.
As it happened the next lesson was a sparring night and at his insistance he joined in. What we were doing was 1 guy in the middle of a circle and the other 5 guys all had a kick shield and the idea was that everyone had a different attack, 1 sheild had to be kicked, 1 punched, 1 elbowed etc. The guy in the middle is then rushed and you have to stop from being backed into a corner or overwhelmed, it can be pretty frantic as you can imagine. He had his turns on the pads and was asked if he wanted to go in the middle, he did and again you can guess the results. Even though we went easy on him he still felt that he needed to prove something I suppose or just got that rush of blood and really did some damage to the shoulder.
He has now missed 1 month and looks like needing an operation so is going to lose alot more simply by trying to come back too soon.
My advice is you only get 1 body dont risk permanent injury for short term gains.


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## Cryozombie (Jun 11, 2005)

What really sucks is I am missing the Luke Molitor Seminar today and tomorrow.

Most of our school went. I hope they bring good stuff back...


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## silatman (Jun 11, 2005)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> What really sucks is I am missing the Luke Molitor Seminar today and tomorrow.
> 
> Most of our school went. I hope they bring good stuff back...


Dude I missed out on a Dan Inosanto seminar, my condolences


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## TigerWoman (Jun 11, 2005)

I have found you can work through sore muscles but not through injuries.  I just made them worse.  I had chronic shoulder pain which could have turned into a frozen shoulder-more permanent. Won't even get into the knee thing again.  Sometimes we have to let our reason rule over passion.  One body is right, so better to take care of it. I just wish we have a medical bay (can't remember now what that was called) like on Star Trek and have the doc heal it with a laser-like pulse.  TW


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## Cryozombie (Jun 12, 2005)

TigerWoman said:
			
		

> I just wish we have a medical bay (can't remember now what that was called) like on Star Trek and have the doc heal it with a laser-like pulse. TW


 I think it was called "Sick Bay"


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## Elizium (Jun 12, 2005)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> I think it was called "Sick Bay"


One think about Star Trek was that when Data got sick/injured, he always ended up in Sick Bay and not Engineering.

But on thread topic... I am at the moment waiting to go for a CT scan and to see a specialist at the hospital for my kidneys.  The reason how this happened to me is unclear, but the doctor that originally seen me thinks it is down to budo.  Another doctor thinks otherwise  So either way, I am on a slight sickie.  It does not bother me.  The only time it will make me concerned is if they mention operation and stay in hospital.  Apart from that, I am stil training and being myself.

But for your arm ETC, go train, but train light.  Go through the motions working on your foot placement and how you should move.  Also training one handed is fun to do.  No hands is a right scream.  Breaking balance is more interesting without arms.

Oh and get better as well.


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## Mc Qoorbs (Jun 12, 2005)

i dont know about being that injured and training.but my wrist is real ****ed up and i train with the brace on


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## MA-Caver (Jun 12, 2005)

Always Always Always check with your doctor when dealing with post injuries and training. Throw all that testosteroned macho B.S. out the window and do your body right... listen to the doctor who knows the human body and it's workings better than you do.


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## arnisador (Jun 12, 2005)

Consulting a physical/athletic trainer too isn't a bad idea. But, you don't want to make it worse and _really_ delay your training! A few weeks off now might save you a few months off later.


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## rutherford (Jun 13, 2005)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> What really sucks is I am missing the Luke Molitor Seminar today and tomorrow.
> 
> Most of our school went. I hope they bring good stuff back...




Why didn't you at least go and watch?


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## Mr.Franco (Jun 13, 2005)

Take this opportunity to watch and take good notes. Road rash is "whatever" but and AC seperation can only get worse. It's better to be out for a month and heal correctly than to exacerbate the injury and be out for a year (at the least).


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## Dale Seago (Jun 13, 2005)

It depends on the nature and severity of the injury, obviously, and getting a doctor's opinion is always a good idea. In any case, I feel the point is not to try to "work through" the injury but to find ways to "work _around_" it so that it doesn't become worse.

Example: A couple of years ago as I was teaching, I did something involving a sort of _osoto nage_ takedown on a student. I was NOT moving quickly or forcefully, just took a walking step placing my right leg behind my unbalanced uke, and as I stepped I felt a sort of "PING" in the back of my left thigh. . .almost like a blow. Either a muscle or the hamstring tendon in the back of my thigh had just suffered a spontaneous partial rupture.

By the time my uke was back on his feet, I'd already (through subtly shifting my weight) determined what I could and couldn't get away with in terms of further movement. I just changed to doing different kinds of things from that point on, and I finished out the class with no one having any idea I was injured.

Next day I was using a cane to walk. I didn't really need it to walk, but if I tried to move at more than a very moderate walking pace the leg seized up viciously and I'd have to lean on the cane for a bit. I was fine again in a couple of weeks, and while I wasrecovering I continued to train and teach -- just moved in ways and did techniques which didn't make the injury worse.

(Slight digression: A few months before that, my wife Teri had suffered an achilles tendon rupture near her right heel. How'd it happen, you may ask? She was at home, and saw a tailfeather our parrot had dropped on the floor, and she knelt down on one knee -- with good form and structural alignment -- to pick it up, and WHAM! Thinking at first she'd been shot through the window by someone outside the apartment, she rolled under the living room  table, then checked herself and realized it was nothing external.

Neither of us had ever had anything like this happen to us before, and I asked our family physician -- who used to train with us -- about it. He said these kinds of spontaneous ruptures are really not that uncommon; and that when they do occur, the victim is usually doing nothing more strenuous than walking across the room. Actually, now that I think of it, he had an achilles rupture himself a year or so before Ter's -- which required surgery and 6 months or so of rehabilitation -- while playing around with his young son outside their church.)


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## shesulsa (Jun 13, 2005)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> My instructor dropped me an email today suggesting I should come do light training with my injury, to learn how to move, well, i guess while injured.
> 
> I _think_ its a good Idea, and I trust my instructor has my best interest in mind, but at the same time am worried about making the injury worse. I'm going back to the doctor for a follow up exam monday and I will talk to him about what is an acceptable level of activity, of course... but how many of you train when injured, or train with people who have injuries?
> 
> Is this a good idea? A bad idea? Is it normal for people to do this? Am I having anxiety about training like this for no reason?


 I think you need to feel this out for yourself.  AC separations are not fun to deal with and easy to injure further.  When my ACL was out, I trained with my brace on after a few months of physical therapy.  I mainly worked out on upper body, and slowly worked my way through techniques and forms, modifying them for the injury.  

 From a s/d position, I think your sensei has a point - the bad guys don't care if you're injured, in fact they rather like it. 

 But I wouldn't do any falls or anything like that.


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## Jmh7331 (Jun 20, 2005)

Jmh7331 said:
			
		

> Unless your Instructor is a Dr., I would get a 2nd opinion.


I know this is off-topic, but who gave me bad rep for this comment and why?  Not that it changes the price of tea in China but I think you should be required to put your name on a bad rep report and a reason why.  Ok, I'm 5 days into a 6 day work week (12.5/night) so I guess I am getting a little grumpy!


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## Tengu6 (Jun 20, 2005)

Techno, show up for class. The way we train injured is to avoid all use of the injured limb, so you will learn to position yourself so as to not expose the area........it really is more about avoiding the area and protecting it as opposed to "light training". 

Shawn Grey, Shiela Haddad and Ed Martin did a demonstration of this in Sweden recently. training with the actual injury will make you more aware of it as opposed to "pretending" you have an injury.

you will learn how to do your techniques without the use of one arm...and how to position yourself so it is not readily available to your attacker.

I hope your feeling better, I was at Vics shortly after your accident....and as soon as I heard you were ok I was thinking about that awesome flame paint job on your tank............dare I ask?

Markk Bush


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## Cryozombie (Jun 20, 2005)

Tengu6 said:
			
		

> Techno, show up for class. The way we train injured is to avoid all use of the injured limb, so you will learn to position yourself so as to not expose the area........it really is more about avoiding the area and protecting it as opposed to "light training".
> 
> Shawn Grey, Shiela Haddad and Ed Martin did a demonstration of this in Sweden recently. training with the actual injury will make you more aware of it as opposed to "pretending" you have an injury.
> 
> ...


 I would love to show up for class... I cant get there right now... No car, and I cant ride with my arm in the sling.

 The tank got pretty trashed.  Need to replace it.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 21, 2005)

I really have to agree with Dale that you could try working around your injury! Currently I have a tear in my anterior/superior labrum in my shoulder that I received while putting one of my kids into his car seat! The pain had been excruciating but now after a couple of months it is feeling great! During that time I just worked around it doing movements that did not seem to bother it and focused on some aspects of training that I had been neglecting! Now that I am almost injury free my skills in those certain areas have improved dramaticly and I have made some great progress! Maybe I should get injured more often! However, with whatever you do make sure that you get your physicians opinion!

Brian R. VanCise


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## Tengu6 (Jun 21, 2005)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> I would love to show up for class... I cant get there right now... No car, and I cant ride with my arm in the sling.
> 
> The tank got pretty trashed. Need to replace it.


Glad your ok, sorry about the bike. Maybe someone could pick you up for class? Even if youe unsure about training I am sure everyone would like to see you.....and if your other arm is working..:drinkbeer

Markk Bush


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## Kenpodoc (Jun 21, 2005)

I trained for three months with my arm in a long arm cast and pins sticking out. It was a good experience that I don't want to repeat.  My surgeon did look oddly at me when I asked how long before I could punch full contact with that arm.  

A physicians opinion is a good idea but look for one with experience at getting athletes back to training quickly and safely. the average physician who thinks that walking 9 holes of golf is a good hard work out probably knows little about getting serious athletes back to work. This is not a knock on those doctors, Medicine is extremely broad and complex and attorneys are always waiting in the wings. It is easier and safer to slow someones recovery from and injury than to speed it.

Jeff


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## shesulsa (Jun 21, 2005)

Yeah, my orthopedic surgeon gave me the same look when I showed him I could finally sit down on folded knees - completely - about 13 months after my midline ACL reconstruction.  He said he never wanted to see me do that again.  So ... I won't do it in front of him again.


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## Tengu6 (Jun 21, 2005)

I would be concerned if it were a knee or leg injury..but being that it is a shoulder injury it would be more dangerous for you to go grocery shopping than to go to class. If you have not seen Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu you wouldnt understand how our movement adapts to our situation......techniques can be done with one arm, while learning to position your injured area away from the attack.......of course your training partners will go slow....start tai chi style (slow and soft) to get a feel for the movement.

Markk Bush


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## althaur (Jun 21, 2005)

Techno,

I had the same injury to both of my AC joints.  It sucks!  I couldn't sleep on my side for about 4-6 months because of the pain.  That being said, the injury takes a LONG time to heal completely.  YOu need to keep it immobile for as long as the Dr. orders.  

The first time I did it was what my wife referred to as a "single car accident".  In other words, I did it to myself.  The second time I did it, to the other shoulder, was an instructor doing a PERFECT throw.  I couldn't roll out of it.  I came down with a wonderful wet, squishy popping noise.  

Both times, I would still come to class to at least watch.  You pickup so much when you force yourself to step back and just watch what your instructor and other students are doing.  I would work in on some of the techniques.  I would do everything with one arm.  It made me concentrate on using my legs and body to do everything instead of using my arms and hands.  

Try doing Sanchin and Kihon with one arm.  It will open up a whole new way to look at what you are doing.  

DO NOT be an uke for quite some time.  Your friends will understand the need for you to avid this for a while.  Just work in with others.  You don't need to be tough about it.  If it hurts, stop.  From experience, don't try to do Uke Nagashi at any speed other than super-slo-mo.  Just about dropped me to my knees when I did it.  

REst and get better.  

Josh


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## Dale Seago (Jun 21, 2005)

althaur said:
			
		

> The second time I did it, to the other shoulder, was an instructor doing a PERFECT throw.  I couldn't roll out of it.  I came down with a wonderful wet, squishy popping noise.



I remember you being out of commission for a bit with that one, but I don't recall just how it happened -- please tell me it was Patrick and not me!


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## althaur (Jun 21, 2005)

Depends.  What's the guilt gonna get me?  

It was Patrick.  We had a tendency to go a little too close to full throttle.  You only ever gave me bruises and busted lips.


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## Elizium (Jun 22, 2005)

Tengu6 said:
			
		

> I would be concerned if it were a knee or leg injury..but being that it is a shoulder injury it would be more dangerous for you to go grocery shopping than to go to class. If you have not seen Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu you wouldnt understand how our movement adapts to our situation......techniques can be done with one arm, while learning to position your injured area away from the attack.......of course your training partners will go slow....start tai chi style (slow and soft) to get a feel for the movement.
> 
> Markk Bush


 Go slow in a Tai Chi style?  Are you nuts?  You have one good arm so why not use that instead of your damaged other. :uhyeah:

 My arm was hurt at the socket the day before I had to cover for my instructor.  So I done some one armed techniques like Musha, Gansake, Omote and foot placement ETC  All can be done 1 armed.  It is just a matter of placing yourself in to that way to use your arm better.

 But yesterday the docs have told me to go and rest, not for my arm, but for this tumor/cancer thing on my kidney.  Oh well, who want to buy a diced up liver?


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## Tengu6 (Jun 22, 2005)

Elizium said:
			
		

> Go slow in a Tai Chi style? Are you nuts? You have one good arm so why not use that instead of your damaged other. :uhyeah:


Where did I ever say to use the injured arm? I clearly explain not use it, and keep it positioned away from the attacker.

Markk Bush


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## rutherford (Jun 22, 2005)

Tengu6 said:
			
		

> Where did I ever say to use the injured arm? I clearly explain not use it, and keep it positioned away from the attacker.
> 
> Markk Bush



I think you missed his sarcasm.  Training slowly being a hotbutton topic and all . . .


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## Tengu6 (Jun 22, 2005)

rutherford said:
			
		

> I think you missed his sarcasm. Training slowly being a hotbutton topic and all . . .


I saw the sarcasm in the going slow part, it's the "using the damaged arm" part that I was refering to.....doesnt make sense in a sarcastic application......he furthur goes on to explain that our techniques can be done one armed, which I had already alluded to making me think he didn,t read my post and just responded to it.

I appologize if it entirely went over my head.

Markk Bush


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## Dale Seago (Jun 22, 2005)

At the West Coast Buyu Camp this past weekend (see http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=407347#post407347) Ed Martin taught a session on training "around" injuries during the afternoon 'breakout sessions" on Saturday. I missed it, as I was scheduled to teach a session at the same time. However, in class last night I started off by asking everyone who'd been to the camp if there was anything that had really impressed them from any of the training sessions that they'd like to share with everyone.

A couple of people mentioned Ed's class, so we started off with a couple of things he'd shown with only one arm usable as a base to work from; and I gave them a lot of henka and further concepts to play with as well.

After the mid-class break I got into an area Ed hadn't had time for: What if you can only use one leg? I used my obi to make a "sling" for my right leg: Normally it's worn wrapped twice around the waist, but I wrapped it once around, moved the knot around to my right side, tied the ends and looped my right ankle through.

Everyone was surprised to see how well you can evade, strike, and grapple while bouncing around on one leg. . .Yes, you can even do a really devastating ganseki-nage while dropping into _seiza_.   :boing1: 

We finished up with a bunch of _suwari_-type stuff, the idea being that -- with only one leg available -- you'd fallen or been knocked down and the opponent is coming at you.

I also made sure everyone got to do some free-form "randori' for a while at the end of class.

I think it's important to do this kind of training occasionally. . .and it also happens to be fun, though I'll admit that it's probably more fun when you're not actually injured.


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## Tengu6 (Jun 22, 2005)

Dale that sounds like you guys had a lot of fun. At one of Ed's seminars we had a gentleman with 2 prosthetic legs and one prosthetic arm (he removes the arm for training and uses his one natural arm), this guywas amazing.....we did some Suwari Gata and he removed the legs for that as well......I believe his legs stop just above the knee.....and let me tell you no one treated him any different and he could hold his own...........he was one hell of an inspiration for sure!

Here is a pic




http://www.earthwayjourney.com/Images/
Markk Bush


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## Cryozombie (Jun 22, 2005)

Yes!  He was very good!  I was quite impressed.


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## althaur (Jun 22, 2005)

Gotta love his shirt!  That's awesome.


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## MJS (Jun 22, 2005)

That pic. was awesome!!!  I give this guy a huge amount of credit for keeping up with his training!!!  He certainly is an inspiration for everyone!! :asian: 

Mike


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## arnisador (Jun 22, 2005)

That really is an inspiration. Thanks for sharing this story!


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## Dale Seago (Jun 22, 2005)

Markk, thanks so much for posting that -- this guy is fanfreakin'tastic!!!

Number me among those who love his shirt, too.

 :asian:


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## dscott (Jun 22, 2005)

I would have to say that you have to do what's comfortable for you to do.  I've been training for the last 7 months with a good size bone chip in my elbow (I'm getting surgery this winter).  I wear a neoprene sleeve during training, not because it helps with the pain, but because it helps others to remember that I'm injured and to watch out.  If something bothers my elbow, I simply don't do it.  It's not worth screwing your arm up.

I didn't take my own advice.  When I first injured my elbow (hyperextended due to an overzelous armbar) I rushed back into using it.  I should have taken time off of physical activities but I didn't.  I think that's now why it requires surgery.


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## stephen (Jun 22, 2005)

I've trained with him a few times, he's very good. One note however: do NOT kick him in the shins. They're metal and it hurts!


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 2, 2005)

Techno,

How is your injury doing? Better I hope! Mine is feeling better
everyday, I am even going to begin lifting weights again this
week after seeing my physician and getting the okay! If your 
injury is not doing good right now, a friend of mine recommended
that you ask your instructor if he would like you to videotape
some of your groups training! The instructor gets the tape, 
(valuable footage) and you get to see things from the lens which often 
really helps your movement as well! All of course must be okay
with your instructor as some people do not want to be videotaped! 

Brian R. VanCise


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## Cryozombie (Jul 2, 2005)

Went back to class last week... had to bow out of some stuff I tried doing, but its getting better every day.

Ive been practice cutting with my Boken most of the week, trying to "work out" the kinks in my shoulder before sunday, since we are doing Tameshigiri and I dont want to miss that...

So far, so good!


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jul 5, 2005)

http://kesshi.whero.net/downloads/Keiko10_trailer.wmv


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## Don Roley (Jul 7, 2005)

I frequently work out with people that are injured. As long as they tell me ahead of time, there has been no problem. Of course, many of these people are visiting Japan and got injured while here. One recent guy had surgery on his knee two weeks before he was schedualed to come. Of course the idea of missing training after all they went through to get here is a bit different from what you may be facing.


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## sandan (Jul 7, 2005)

live to fight another day.  There are benefits to training injured sometimes, however, but don't be stupid about it.  An attacker on the street is not really going to care if you're hurt or not.  If you feel you cannot train or your doctor recommends you not to train, by all means don't train, but do attend classes so you can at least observe and visualize techniques.


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## paradoxbox (Aug 25, 2005)

Hi Technopunk, I had the same kind of injury as you about a year and a half ago. It was uncomfortable for me for about 3 months. I restarted training after about 2 weeks. I can sympathize with the pain, it's worse than gout or being impaled, I know.. The dull ache you have will probably go away in another month or so, and you probably will no longer feel any more 'acute' or piercing pains if you move your arm to the sensitive spots (like accross your chest).

 Just be careful in the future not to land on your shoulders in ukemi as this will aggrivate the injury. I'm not sure if you're the same as I am, but it took a lot of guts for me to start doing ukemi over the damaged shoulder again. I had to start by doing ukemi from seiza... 

 Wish you luck in your recovery! In a few months you won't even notice any pain anymore.


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