# The Heart of The Art



## Elayna (Aug 4, 2006)

Hey everyone,

As I have been studying the forums and the posts made by tons of people I have seen how much everyone in these forums really truly loves his or her art. Even from the youngest of peeps to the oldest. Whether you are new to the art, or a master, or even in between. One thing that we all hold in common is the love of The Art. But....

Why is it that when you look through the forums you dont see love, you see bickering, frustration, and yes, even anger more then anything?? When we all love this art so much why do we literally fight with each other? Not just simple discussions and debates but flame wars and calling people stupid and so on. When have we become so childish that instead of loving and respecting somone, because they love what we do, we hurt them, insult them and degrade them in anyway we can think of? Is this what the original masters had in mind when they told us to make a family? Is this what they had in mind when they talked of peace and harmony? Is this what they had in mind when they spoke of being one with The Art? 

We train hours on end to fight an enemy that is lurking in the shadows waiting to pounce. We condition or mind and our bodies for the unexpected. But do we ever condition our heart? Peeps...We have become so cold. Our training that we have is more often used on our friends and our neighbors then our enemy. It is often used even...on our families. Why?? How have we become to where we isolate ourselves in a dojo or in a place where all we do is train for the moment when that shadow attacks? Where family, love, and a social life among our friends, among our village if you will is only 3rd or 4th on our list? Is this what the great masters teach us?
I think not!!
Without a heart, a warrior is nothing but an empty shell. Without something to fight for, what encouragement does a warrior have? Fighting for glory will only get you so far. But fighting for your family, for your friends, for love...will get you much further then a petty goal of glory. Fighting for medals, for a belt, for a rank, will only get you material things to take with you to heaven. But fighting for the things that you love, for the things and the people that will be there for you, long after the momentary pleasure of winning will. 
Our Hearts people, is what defines us as warriors, as people and as humans. And to me, the old masters try to tell us, that this is what we need to concentrate on more then anything. Being one with The Art, through Body, Mind and Spirit (Heart). Is it just me, or do we concentrate more on the Body, and Mind, then on the Heart? 
I ask you everyone....Today...Look at someone you love, admire or respect and ask yourself....Do I show them love? Love through respecting them or telling them or just listening to them. I do not mean love purley as a romantic sentiment...I mean it as so much more...and I hope you understand that.

Anyways...I hope that this post will help someone out there to see more in life then just what they have. Because there is always more.

Love ya all. Even if I dont know you. Everyone has something about them to love...even if its just that their a pain in the butt.


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## Bigshadow (Aug 4, 2006)

Elayna said:
			
		

> Without a heart, a warrior is nothing but an empty shell. Without something to fight for, what encouragement does a warrior have?



Good morning Elayna!   I would highly recommend you read 

"Living the Martial Way: A Manual for the Way a Modern Warrior Should Think"
by Forrest E. Morgan
ISBN: 0942637763


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## Kacey (Aug 4, 2006)

Elayna said:
			
		

> Why is it that when you look through the forums you dont see love, you see bickering, frustration, and yes, even anger more then anything??



Because we are human beings - and no matter how much we strive for perfection, we are not perfect.  In addition, people who participate in any activity for the long term tend to be passionate about that activity - and when person A and person B are equally passionate about different arts, that passion is going to become evident in their responses; when they are passionate about different variants of the same art, and disagree on the points of variance, that passion is going to be even more evident.



			
				Elayna said:
			
		

> When we all love this art so much why do we literally fight with each other? Not just simple discussions and debates but flame wars and calling people stupid and so on. When have we become so childish that instead of loving and respecting somone, because they love what we do, we hurt them, insult them and degrade them in anyway we can think of?



See above.  Also, the advantage and disadvantage of instant input provided by a bulletin board adds to this.  It is much easier to respond without thinking to a disembodied name on the 'net than to respond similarly to a person with whom you are face to face.  For many people, it is easy to respond in the heat of the moment, in the fire of the conversation, than to stop and think about the people who will be reading what has been written... and the fact that few people know others on the board personally makes that easier.  The reality of the human condition is that people want to believe that what they have chosen for themselves (or had chosen, depending on the activity) is the best choice there could possibly be - and therefore that choice needs to be defended, and those who have made a different choice, or no choice at all, need to be convinced of the error of their ways.

However, I will say that I have been on other boards which much looser moderation (in one case, none at all), and those boards are *nasty* - not just the profanity, but the personal attacks, offers to show up and beat the crap out of people, and so on.  No matter how out of line, rude, nasty, etc. you may think some participants on this board are, the control is there to prevent it from getting out of hand... and there's always the RTM feature, if you think someone has overstepped.



			
				Elayna said:
			
		

> Is this what the original masters had in mind when they told us to make a family? Is this what they had in mind when they talked of peace and harmony? Is this what they had in mind when they spoke of being one with The Art?


 
Is it what they meant philosophically?  I doubt it... but again, masters who created their own arts thought that they had the best of the possible choices out there - and many of them weren't afraid to say so; certainly, their followers generally are not afraid to say so.  Competition is a facet of human existence, and does not preclude peace, harmony, or being one with the Art... especially if the road to such peace, harmony, and oneness requires bringing the Art to people who don't necessarily want it.  An anology would be any religion that proselityzes; the ultimate goal of the religion is peace, harmony, and the oneness of humanity... which can only happen if everyone is brought to this truth - kicking and screaming and protesting, if need be.  Did all the old master espouse this method?  Not at all... but their followers, or their followers followers... those who missed the peace, harmony and oneness part and latched onto the superiority portion... it's hard to judge this for other people.



			
				Elayna said:
			
		

> We train hours on end to fight an enemy that is lurking in the shadows waiting to pounce. We condition or mind and our bodies for the unexpected. But do we ever condition our heart? Peeps...We have become so cold. Our training that we have is more often used on our friends and our neighbors then our enemy. It is often used even...on our families. Why?? How have we become to where we isolate ourselves in a dojo or in a place where all we do is train for the moment when that shadow attacks? Where family, love, and a social life among our friends, among our village if you will is only 3rd or 4th on our list? Is this what the great masters teach us?
> I think not!!



Your training may be more often used on your friends and neighbors, and/or your family; mine never has been.  My students know that abuse of what they have been taught will get them kicked out... and in 15 years, I've never had anyone abuse what they've learned from me, because part of the lessons I teach is always appropriate use.  Many arts dropped the moral component originally present - often (but not always) in the transition from "art" to "sport" or "exercise"; some dropped it because it was present in the culture and not taught directly in the art, then the culture changed and the lessons were not put back in; there are, no doubt, other reasons as well.



			
				Elayna said:
			
		

> Without a heart, a warrior is nothing but an empty shell. Without something to fight for, what encouragement does a warrior have? Fighting for glory will only get you so far. But fighting for your family, for your friends, for love...will get you much further then a petty goal of glory. Fighting for medals, for a belt, for a rank, will only get you material things to take with you to heaven. But fighting for the things that you love, for the things and the people that will be there for you, long after the momentary pleasure of winning will.



I don't dispute this - but many people have not reached this point.  For too many people, material awards are the sole reason to participate in an activity.  Children whose parents bribe them into school performance by paying for grades, adults who only perform their job well because they want a better position or more money, anyone who finds learning unnecessary unless there is some material "payback" for learning... these people are all missing the boat, and they are all to prevalent within American society.  As an instructor (and a school teacher, for that matter), I work hard to instill in my students a love of learning and self-improvement for their own sake - but many people never overcome the materialistic values instilled by society to reach the moral levels at which one does what is right _because_ it is right, rather than to gain rewards or avoid punishment.  This is not the fault of the art, but more of the overwhelming presence of the goals and values of the larger society.



			
				Elayna said:
			
		

> Our Hearts people, is what defines us as warriors, as people and as humans. And to me, the old masters try to tell us, that this is what we need to concentrate on more then anything. Being one with The Art, through Body, Mind and Spirit (Heart). Is it just me, or do we concentrate more on the Body, and Mind, then on the Heart?
> I ask you everyone....Today...Look at someone you love, admire or respect and ask yourself....Do I show them love? Love through respecting them or telling them or just listening to them. I do not mean love purley as a romantic sentiment...I mean it as so much more...and I hope you understand that.


 
See previous paragraph.

Anyways...I hope that this post will help someone out there to see more in life then just what they have. Because there is always more.
 [/quote]

The people who understand it will appreciate it greatly; the people who don't understand will blow it off.  The people who are close to understanding, however, may be tipped over into understanding by it - and therefore it is valuable.


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 4, 2006)

If Martial Arts are your passion, why should you not be passionant about it?
Sean


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## OnlyAnEgg (Aug 4, 2006)

All that is needed for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

I'm fairly certain that's paraphrased and I don't know the author; but, it's contextually correct.

There is always something to fight for, within and without.


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## Elayna (Aug 4, 2006)

Big Shadow...
Thanks for the book recomendation. In fact, my husband actually owns the book and agrees it is to be put on my reading list.  (reading list is veryyyy long. LOL). Thanks again.

Touch Of Death...
If martial arts is your passion then by all means. I never said and Im sorry if I implied you should not be passionate about it. But having passion and manners is a good combo.  Also, having respect for those that have a different passion is also good, yes? 

Kacey....
Reply to come..long. Hehehe

So many things that you said are so true. We are indeed imperfect creatures. Imperfect humans of great potential. And because of this great potential, I believe that the more we look at our behavior, others behavior and so many other aspects of our existence we will be able to take hold of that potential. 
I believe something very simple. However much we love is how much we can hate. I think this is shown in the boards and in our lives. We love something so much, whether it be a person, thing, or a belief (many other things as well) that we can also hate in the same way.
I agree that not being perfect can definatly excuse alot of human behavior, but there has to be a point where we stop using that as an excuse. Not being perfect, for me, is no excuse not to improve upon yourself and upon society. Being rude, inconsiderate and plain mean to others is not cool. 
We teach our children to be kind and gentle. To be non-prejudical and not care what a person looks like, what gender they are, what country their from and so on. So why dont adults do what they teach?
Being passionate about your particular art is wonderful. But..being passionate to where everyone must agree with you or they are stupid, uneducated or unenlightened is not good.
Now I can see the dilema in this, just like with religon. If your one religon you think everyones going to hell..while your rival religon says the same thing. Just like with martial arts. One art says their the "true art" while yet the rival one is saying the exact same thing.
So how do we get past this? Is it even possible? Especially with how humans defend their beliefs and refuse to think any other way?
Well I say thats where we start. Start thinking different ways. Im not saying to give up on what you believe or even say what you believe is wrong. Im just saying, I think we should start realizing everyone thinks just like we do, and thats whats causing the conflict. So change it up. Just like you wouldnt attack with the same move over and over if its effectiveness stopped. So..change it up.
And Im going to be blunt ok.
We need to stop trying to show our friends and rival dojos how big our thingys are, and start showing our enemys how big our thingys are. Because people who practice the art to protect their village and their family and innocent people arent our enemies. And if we keep badgering them because they are "different" or they dont know as much as we do. When the time comes to raise flags together and fight our common enemy are they really going to want to raise their flag next to someone who was mean and big jerk? I think not.
I believe that this thought can not only be used in the martial arts world but internationally and even wife and husband.
We need to stop competing against each other just to show who is bigger or stronger and start working with each other for the "final battle" if you will.
Ok I know dramatic...But it needed to be said. And dont worry Im prepared for the whipping post. LOL 

*stop thinking "oh i can show them" of "im better then them" and start thinking "what can I learn from them" and "how can I help them"*

*To help others is not always to sacrafice for them, sometimes it is to help yourself become better*

Anyways....I hope I havent been to blunt or unfeeling.
I really do appreciate all the responses. Because I really do feel that it is time for a wake up call.


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## SFC JeffJ (Aug 4, 2006)

I think part of the problem is, no matter how some people will disagree with this, is that martial arts, is by it's very nature, combative.  Yes, I know some arts are used as a metaphor for the joining together of mankind, or spiritual self improvement.  But when it comes down to it, these systems were initially designed  to render enemies combat ineffectual.  The "my style is better" arguments I'm sure reach back to the time of the founding of the second combative system.  

Should we be better now?  It's hard to say.  From an evolutionary standpoint, not much time has passed since the first systemized forms of combat.  But we should all strive to better ourselves all the time.  It doesn't matter if we use the Martial Arts as the metaphor to help us along with that.

Martial arts doesn't make better people.  An individual makes a better person.  But if you are going to use Martial Arts as the metaphor to help you in your journey to self improvement, remember that it came from one simple purpose.  To kill.

Jeff


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 4, 2006)

JeffJ said:
			
		

> I think part of the problem is, no matter how some people will disagree with this, is that martial arts, is by it's very nature, combative. Yes, I know some arts are used as a metaphor for the joining together of mankind, or spiritual self improvement. But when it comes down to it, these systems were initially designed to render enemies combat ineffectual. The "my style is better" arguments I'm sure reach back to the time of the founding of the second combative system.
> 
> Should we be better now? It's hard to say. From an evolutionary standpoint, not much time has passed since the first systemized forms of combat. But we should all strive to better ourselves all the time. It doesn't matter if we use the Martial Arts as the metaphor to help us along with that.
> 
> ...


 
I don't want to argue and I don't want to rant, I just don't have it in me today. But I have to agree with what Jeff said.

Love is a good thing, very good actually, but it was never the historical basis of martial arts.


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## Bigshadow (Aug 4, 2006)

OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> All that is needed for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.



Just thought I would throw this out here



			
				Edmund Burke (1729-1797) Statesman said:
			
		

> All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 4, 2006)

*EDIT:* Please see next post, I had an error here I could not correct and ended up with a duplicate post so I deleted this one.

Sorry for the mess.


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 4, 2006)

> Resolve to be a master of change rather than a victim of change.
> --Brian Tracy


 


> Change does not change tradition. It strengthens it.
> Change is a challenge and an opportunity; not a threat.
> --Prince Phillip of England


 
Clarification: I am not justifying arguing fighting and rudeness on MT nor am I even refuting what is being posted. However historically love is not the basis of Martial arts that is all.


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## SFC JeffJ (Aug 4, 2006)

I would also like to make it clear that I don't appreciate, and try really hard not to participate in arguments that sometimes occur here.

Jeff


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## MRE (Aug 4, 2006)

Elayna said:
			
		

> Hey everyone,
> 
> As I have been studying the forums and the posts made by tons of people I have seen how much everyone in these forums really truly loves his or her art. Even from the youngest of peeps to the oldest. Whether you are new to the art, or a master, or even in between. One thing that we all hold in common is the love of The Art. But....
> 
> ...


 
Hi Elayna,

I agree that the love of our arts is the common theme in this forum.  The passion for the martial arts that can be gleened from almost every thread is the reason I originally joined the forum.  However, I stay active in the forum because of the warmth I see in most of the posts.  Therefore, I have to disagree with you when you say that you only see bickering, frustration, and anger in the forum.

In my opinion, the posts generally show people connecting positively, some on a martial level and others on a personal level.  On a martial level, there are numerous threads with members helping others with their techniques, others with members helping with choosing a school, and still others with members giving safety advice or healing tips.  In these threads and hundreds like them, I see exchanges of ideas, not dueling ideals.  I can't speak for the original masters, but this has to be a good thing.

On a personal level, it is amazing to see members sharing and congratulating each other on their high points (joining a new art, passing a belt test, buying a car, birth of their children).  However, I think it is outstanding to see the members share and comfort each other through their low points.  I saw a thread where members comforted another who had lost a relative, another where members helped another quell his need for revenge, and still another where members had helped comfort another to face her agressors in court.  I don't know if you can call it "love", but the warmth I saw in those threads and hundreds like them definitely showed a positive connection.  Sure there are posts that poke fun at others, throw insults, etc.  But those angry posts, in my opinion, make up such a small percentage of the total on this forum. 

I don't know if your idea that martial artists have become cold is based on your own personal experience, but I am sure that it can not be based solely on this forum.  Because, in my opinion after reading through their posts, most of the members have good hearts.  I am sure their hearts weren't developed through martial arts, but it certainly wasn't frozen by the arts either.  For the most part, it sounds like martial arts help get some closer to their family, whether it be sharing an activity or passion with a spouse or child, or having an activity for themselves that help them destress and stay healthy so they can spend quality time with their loved ones.

If some decide to fight for medals, ribbons, or belts, I think that is great!  Those are all goals that will help motivate a person to get better at something they love.  And just because a person is chasing those personal goals, it doesn't mean that their family is automatically a lesser priority.  

For me, I don't fight for medals or ribbons.  Actually, I don't fight at all unless someone threatens my wife or children.  Actually, this is also a common theme in alot of threads.  Many members feel strongly about protecting those they love, whether it be their family or training partners which makes me believe that most members here will have no problem saying that they do show love to those that they love, admire, and respect on a consistent basis.

Of course, this post was all based on reading through the various threads for the past couple of months and my humble opinion.

Take care


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## pstarr (Aug 4, 2006)

Well said, MRE!

We're all members of a big family and like any other siblings, we argue and fight from time to time...


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## OnlyAnEgg (Aug 5, 2006)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> Just thought I would throw this out here


 
Hey!  I was only off by one!  Thanks, shadow


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## terryl965 (Aug 5, 2006)

Passion is the force that drives true Martial Artist to continue there journey deeper and deeper into there particular Art. 

Love is what keeps them from confronting every single person on earth that believes MA has no merit value in life.

Being a true MA'ist we have to be both all the time no-matter what happens in our lifes, we cannot and should not be perfect God gave us a will. Therefore all MA'ist strive for the ever lasting (To be perfect) syndrome in reality perfection is the journey, the journey that will never end either here on earth or in heaven.

Just my thought anyway.
Terry


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## Elayna (Aug 5, 2006)

Hey everybody, 

First off I just wanted to say Thank You for all the replies. Secondly I wanted to say.
Im really sorry If I have offended anyone by this post. I didnt mean to anyway state that they family that people have created here or in the dojo by anymeans in not relevant or made of love. I have a bit of an issue with wording things. LOL. Again, Im sorry.

That being said, Let me try and clarify what I was trying to say. 

When I look through the different boards and forums on this site, I do see all the negative things I mentioned. But, I also see good things. Unfourtunatly though, I dont believe that the good things shine through brite enough. Because when there are tons of green marks and then a red mark is put in, it stands out. Especially when there are more and more red marks. And in some cases more red marks then green marks. 
Now by no means am I saying that everyone here is mean and argumentative. But, I do have to say, that I have viewed more then my fair share of negative posts.
Also, mentioning Kacey's mention of martial arts never being used against people she loved. Well I do hate to say this, martial arts has been used for hurtful reasons in my family and in many families that I know of. I have never used it to hurt someone personally, only when I needed to defend myself. But, I also hate to say, it is more common then I think we care to admit.
Going to the posts in regards to martial arts starting out as a form a killing. I have to say that I agree 50%. I believe that yes, the body part of martial arts was indeed made for killing. But I see before that. Why did they need to kill? Because they wanted to protect what was theirs. Because they Loved it. Their families, their land and their homes. Even their village. For those masters that started the art. It was indeed in my opinion created also out of love as well as the need to kill.
Now for those people who used martial arts to conquer. That was not love, that was desire. And that is the 50% of the art that they used. The killing part, to accomplish their desire. This is the part that I personally try to refine and not concentrate on.
I believe we all have the choice to use the 'body' part of this art to kill out of love, or to kill for conquer or desire, if you will.
I have personally seen dojos nation wide, families nation wide, and forums world wide that have become cold and distant. Meaning...
They have become so concerned about the 50% body part with desire attached that they have failed to see the love part in which martial arts originated. I also believe, that not being able to see this is not a fault. For this world needs warriors of this type. But, not to many. Everything in moderation.
My point being...I dont believe it is moderation anymore. I believe that the goal for medals, glory and so on has become predominent in our society. I dont think there is anything wrong with the aspiration for medals etc. But, when that becomes something you wish to have more then anything else and you sacrafice everything for that...maybe it is no longer moderation or balanced. It is obbessive. 
I myself have gone through wanting medals and trophies. I had a few. I loved the feeling I had. I felt on top of the world. But now, that Im older I see...It really wasnt on top of the world.
But...That was my lesson. And each person has their own.
I guess what Im trying to say is...
Remember that for whatever you are striving for, their is a flip side. Consider that before you give everyting and more to one particular thing.
I do have to say, I agree with giving your all to a cause. But giving your all, and still having a little left for others is one thing. But giving your all and having nothing left except for that particular thing, is...well in my opinion not good.
The heart is what we need to remember when we partice, meditate and spar. When you connect with your heart. When you put your mind and your body in that state, you will become stronger then anything you can imagine. But of course getting there is the biggest challenge.

Again...I hope that you all understand in no way is my intention to insult a family of yours. I merely am stating what I have personally seen, because there may be someone out there in my shoes too. Im just wanting to help.

Thanks all for listening. Happy Posting.


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 5, 2006)

I was neither offended nor insulted. 

Like I said love is a good thing.

And I am not going to dispute your belief. 

Historically Martial arts were for survival and it could be if nothing else interpreted as a love for life I suppose.

XS :asian:


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## SFC JeffJ (Aug 5, 2006)

Nor am I offended Elanya.  We just have different opinions.  

I'd say your are about 50% right as well.  I am sure that many arts were developed originally by thugs, regardless of what their proponents are taught today.  You have to remember, the high ideals of many of the arts out there today really have only been around for a short time.  

Now one thing I think is very important that I didn't bring up in my previous post.  Using Aikido as an example, and it's "message" of harmony between peoples.  It's roots are in Aiki-Jujutsu, a battlefield art.  I think once you consider the fact that Aikido came from an art who's idea was to throw and or control your opponent so you could stab him easier makes the harmonious metaphor of Aikido all the more compelling. 

When it comes down to it, I believe the Heart of the Art is purely physical.  We go to the dojo to learn physical techniques.  Whether to not we choose to use what we learn there as a metaphor for life, and what lessons we use to do that with, is an individual choice, not a universal one.

Jeff


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## Elayna (Aug 5, 2006)

That is true.  How we decide to use the teachings that were given is definatly up to us.  Which is one of the things I love so much about free will you know.
I just wanted to put out there my opinion on everything.  Just so that maybe it would spark some thought in people.  Agreement and disagreement.
Im glad I didnt offend anyone.  Just wanted to make sure you know.  
I just wannnaaaa be looooveeed.   Hehehehehe  

Anyways....You all have a good night, signing off for now.

I hope that you all have liked the post.  Many more...unusual posts to come.   LOL


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## Last Fearner (Aug 6, 2006)

While many of us are very passionate about the Martial Art, I agree that the passion should be tempered with mutual respect for one another. There is far too much verbal abuse on the internet, but it has been pointed out that Martial Talk is a very well monitored site for curbing the "flaming," and "bashing." It is really up to the individual participant here, as to how they are going to express their disagreements.  Friendly discussions often turn into heated debates, which occasionally cross the line into insults, and personal attacks.

I have seen this far more often on other forums, and it is disgusting. However, I do consider that many "students" of the Martial Art (beginner, advanced, and instructors) are still in the developmental stages of their understanding, enlightenment, and personal character traits. Thus, people here will make mistakes (myself included) and say things in the impersonal world of the "www" that they might not otherwise. Then again, there are those who have no regret for behaving badly.

I like it when we can discuss topics, and even disagree with polite discourse, without the conversation degenerating to intentionally disrespectful insults. With that in mind, I would like to express a different point of view on something my fellow Martial Artist, Jeff, said.  (<< smiley face to indicate this is meant in friendly discord)



			
				JeffJ said:
			
		

> But if you are going to use Martial Arts as the metaphor to help you in your journey to self improvement, remember that it came from one simple purpose. To kill.


 


			
				Elayna said:
			
		

> Going to the posts in regards to martial arts starting out as a form a killing. I have to say that I agree 50%.


 
I do not even agree with this implication 50% - actually, not at all. It is my observation that, historically, there have been physical combat among individuals since the beginning of human history. There has been the training of soldiers, and armies since the beginning of structured civilization, but none of this, in my opinion, inherently includes the true essence, or quality of the Martial Art.  Simply because a group of thugs created a method of fighting that is still around today, does not make what they did a "Martial Art," even if today's students study it as such, and call it a Martial Art.

My philosophical observation of the emergence to that which I perceive as the Martial Art comes from a separation of intent between the core elements of combat and wars where a soldier's goal is often to "kill" the enemy, and the "art of the warrior" (a different philosophical breed of trained fighter) which is to protect, and preserve life, knowing that the taking of a life is only done for the just preservation of another life.

It is my personal belief that the Martial Art began, not with the goal, intent, or purpose to kill. That already existed, and still exists among non-martial art fighters, and is the stark difference between the two. The Martial Art was born out of love, compassion, an appreciation for the value of life, and a philosophical view that it is preferable *not* to kill. Although you have the inevitable contradictions that co-exist (like yin and yang, or um and yang), the true Martial Artist believes that all life is precious and should be protected.  Yet, in doing so, the "Martial Warrior" learns skills that can end a life, and must sometime make the choice to do so in self defense, or defense of another.

While it will be difficult for some to let go of the notion that the "way of the Warrior" is to fight, or to kill, and that the original purpose of the Martial Art was to "fight, or to kill" (especially those who have held this belief for a long time), I respectfully contend that this is the opposite of the true nature, essence, and historical beginnings of the Martial Art.  With the mergence of combative skills, the desire for self defense, and the philosophy of valuing all life, a threshold was crossed, and on the other side was the creation of the Martial Art - *without* the purpose, or intent to kill, but rather to protect life.

The technical skills between a soldier who is trained as a "killing machine," and a "Martial Warrior" is very much the same, but the mental intent, and *purpose* being to "kill" can exist among soldiers, but never has existed in true Martial Art philosophy.

This is how I have come to understand the history, development, and nature of the "Do." It is what makes the "Martial Art" what it is.

CM D.J. Eisenhart


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## Last Fearner (Aug 6, 2006)

Just a side note as an after-thought:

I did not intend to imply that JeffJ is not a "Martial Artist" or that he, or anyone else here, is not studying the true essence of the "Martial Art" simply because we might disagree on the origins of the Martial Art, or what are the qualifications to identify a particular course of study as an aspect of Martial Art training.

I hope that no one draws that conclusion from my previous statements.

Thank You!  :asian: 
_______________
Last Fearner


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## MartialIntent (Aug 6, 2006)

Elayna said:
			
		

> Why is it that when you look through the forums you dont see love, you see bickering, frustration, and yes, even anger more then anything?? When we all love this art so much why do we literally fight with each other? Not just simple discussions and debates but flame wars and calling people stupid and so on. When have we become so childish that instead of loving and respecting somone, because they love what we do, we hurt them, insult them and degrade them in anyway we can think of? Is this what the original masters had in mind when they told us to make a family? Is this what they had in mind when they talked of peace and harmony? Is this what they had in mind when they spoke of being one with The Art?


Elayna,

An interesting conversation! I'd just like to give an opinion on your question above if I may. The problems you outlined, the petty bickering, frustration and anger are wholly negative qualities in anyone let alone martial artists who are supposedly on paths to at least some form of self-enlightenment and those negatives are evidenced in most dojos at one time or another and are certainly prevalent on forums like these.

If I could just give you my two cents [which won't buy much on it's own, but keep saving and you'll see!] in my experience much of this stems from jealousy, inadequacy and most definitely fear in the practitioner and I guess all those traits sprout from the same insidious root which is insecurity - some on superficial levels and others are consciously or subconsciously *deeply* insecure within themselves. There are a vast array of manifestations of this, and I'm just petty enough myself to silently trawl MT picking them out, LOL  Well, I gotta have some amusement 

There are also a a fair few martial arts folk who feel their very art or style or their rank or status gives them carte blanche to pontificate and condescend - again one never has to look far to see that  This I believe is nothing more than blatant snobbery which has unfortunately permeated the martial arts mantle and seeped down to lie close to its very core. Within that category of snobs, I find there's another subclass who I'd pigeonhole as gloryhunters. These are the folk who seek nothing more than self-gratification and the plaudits of the crowd - they may appear to be providing; to be giving generously to the martial arts community though in actual fact, if their enthusiastic applause ever dimished or ceased, they'd scurry off hurriedly seeking pastures greener.

Personally I despise this snobbery, pontificating and gloryhunting more than almost anything else in the arts. A quick look around certain forums even here on MT, will show up a lot of these folk in that light [only if you're looking for it though! ] 

However, there are a number of practitioners who redeem this situation - again take a quick look around your dojo or even a forum like this and you can see them. They are the ones seeking to give without great concern to ingratiate themselves to everyone; they're the thinking fighters, the creative ones, the enlightened practitioners; they're the altruists, and unlinke the gloryhunters, they not only garner respect, but they *deserve* it!

Respects!


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## Shaolinwind (Aug 6, 2006)

> Ok I know dramatic...But it needed to be said. And dont worry Im prepared for the whipping post. LOL


 
That being said.. 



> Touch Of Death...
> If martial arts is your passion then by all means. I never said and Im sorry if I implied you should not be passionate about it. But having passion and manners is a good combo.  Also, having respect for those that have a different passion is also good, yes?
> 
> Kacey....
> ...


 
First, please let me say that my intent is not to be confrontational..  I have had only one serious confrontation since I started on MT and I was in the wrong.  Having learned from that, I try to choose my words wisely and I don't often get on people's case or get deeply involved in political matters.

You almost exactly say that if you feel something needs to be said, you will say it.  You have the right to speak freely, and we will listen.  Therefore, you have the duty to watch what you say, be respectful and in turn listen. I think you have tried to do so.

I see your intent as altruistic, however I feel as though that since this whole thread was brought on by reading past threads, it is harsh criticism directed at the Martial Talk community.  I detect notions of moral superiority and I find it somewhat offensive. 

I am all for your goal.  But I am certain the only way to attain and maintain a peaceful and synergetic community is to be a peacable, accepting, and understanding member of the community..  You display a sparkling example of that.  However you've also just jammed a rather blunt manifesto down my throat and it insults my intelligence and appears to question the integrity of our brothers and sisters.

And now, I am also prepared for the whipping post! 

With respect,
Gerald :asian:


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## MRE (Aug 6, 2006)

Hi Elayna,

No offense taken by your posts.  I hope my previous post didn't give you the wrong impression.  I merely wanted to point out that I see alot more good than bad when reviewing the MT threads.

I understand your point of view and agree that love is very important in our lives.  I hope that I will never have to use my art to defend myself or my loved ones, but if I do, I hope my martial strength will always be tempered by compassion.

Thanks for the interesting thread!


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## Bigshadow (Aug 6, 2006)

Elayna said:
			
		

> Im glad I didnt offend anyone.  Just wanted to make sure you know.



I certainly doubt anyone was offended.


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## Elayna (Aug 6, 2006)

Hi Everyone, 

Im going to try and address the individual comments so that I can fully explain my thoughts. Well, try to at least. 

For you guys out there who let me know I didnt offened you, Thank You. 
I really do appreciate the leway that you all give me. 

Last Fearner....

You said something I could not. Thank You. I do agree with you in the orgin of the term "martial arts". I do agree with that humans have had the desire to kill long long before martial arts was created. I agree that "martial arts" was to created to help us not kill like beasts so to speak. But develop the side of us that sets us apart. Our hearts, mind and body. I still believe that some people in the martial arts world concentrate more on their minds and body then their heart. And, this is why we have such an imbalance in the martial arts world. An imbalance of power, understanding and priorities. Not just among the students, but also among the masters.
But, that is for a whole nother thread. 

MartialIntent.....

I also agree that the snobbish, im better then you, rudeness out there is definatly getting...old. I am more then happy to say, that I see tons of good people out there. Specifically on this site. Unfourtunatly, there are some who do not show the same respect and kindness for their brothers and sisters as some on this site. And unfourtunatly those that dont go the distance with kindness, understanding and thoughtfullness tarnish the reputation and look of not only this site, but whatever art they are in.
I hate to sound impatient, or as if I myself have never been this way. I have lived a very,..full life. I have had my share of mistakes and rudeness. But through this I have learned, that it doesnt get you anywhere. It really only hurts you in the long run and I really hope that those out there who find calling people names, degrading them, and taking bad about them will think twice. For their sake, not mine.
Anyways...I do agree. LOL 

ShaolinWind....

Again, I apologize for offending you. I in no way meant it as a disrespect to your character or any other part of you. Generalizing is not one of my attributes. It doesnt really get my thoughts across you know.
I do want to say to you though, my posts and threads on this board are thoughts and ideas that I have come acroos through life experience and many other things. And, yes, as I have read through the boards on this site it has brought alot of old life lessons up and made me rethink things. Which is very good. I post here so that maybe those who are going through the same thoughts will get some benefit from it. And, on a selfish note, so that I too will get benefit from it. From the respones and opinions of my peers.
I am a stay at home mom and I dont get out among adults very much to discuss these things. So I have a tendancy to go to my forum friends and talk about the thoughts or ideas that pop up in my crazy head.
So please, understand, I honestly truly never in any of my posts mean to hurt anyones feelings. I am merely studying among my peers and hoping for a chance to help, be helped and just have fun.
And even your response, has helped me tremedously. To realize, that I need a little work on conveying my thoughts to people. Truly, Thank You!
 


Well Everyone, 
I still feel that this thread has indeed helped me in so many ways. Not only in my personal life but here on the boards. 
Unfourtunatly this is a topic of hot debate because it is very much out there. I just try to make a little bit of difference in the small amout of the world I can reach. May sound...egotistical...but its true. I do want to help. And from life experience I know, Im not the only one out there with these thoughts, ideas and feelings about what is going on out there in the world and specifically with the Martial Arts and its artists.
I also firmly believe, that if ignored much longer there will be effects among us that will be irreversible and some arts will end up dying. And I do NOT want to see that happen.
Civilizations have fallen for the same reasons we are talking about. A Martial Art is no different.

Thank you all again for the wonderful input, and I hope that I have succeeded in conveying a small amount of my thoughts.


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## Shaolinwind (Aug 6, 2006)

> Hi Everyone,
> 
> ShaolinWind....
> 
> Again, I apologize for offending you.


 
I accept.



> And even your response, has helped me tremedously. To realize, that I need a little work on conveying my thoughts to people. Truly, Thank You!


 

No my friend.. I think you need a little work NOT conveying your thoughts.


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## Andrew Green (Aug 7, 2006)

Last Fearner said:
			
		

> It is my personal belief that the Martial Art began, not with the goal, intent, or purpose to kill. That already existed, and still exists among non-martial art fighters, and is the stark difference between the two. The Martial Art was born out of love, compassion, an appreciation for the value of life, and a philosophical view that it is preferable *not* to kill.



* Andrew has a weird vision of a bunch of Samurai charging out onto the battlefield and yelling "Group Hug!" *

No, martial arts, at the core, are about beating the snot out of people.  It's not nice, lots of people don't like to admit it, but that is what we are learning to do.

In modern times people have tried to reinvent it as something else, involving harmony of energy and inner strength but, at the end of the day, they are still beating on each other.

Some take it to a performance route, essentially doing a dance, either a classical one or a modern one.  But yes, that dance is about beating people up.

If it was about love and piece we could just join a quillting class or maybe pilates or aerobics if fitness was the goal.

Now don't get me wrong, you can definately get a lot more out of training then the ability to beat people up, but beating people up is the means to those other ends.


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## Shaolinwind (Aug 7, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> a weird vision of a bunch of Samurai charging out onto the battlefield and yelling "Group Hug!" *


 
   :lfao:   :lfao:    :lfao:     :lfao:


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## Monadnock (Aug 7, 2006)

"Martial Arts" is a pretty large catch-all to make broad statements on.

Aikido, for one, is not about beating anyone up and neither are many of the healing arts. Each art has its own philosophy, and not all are solely about winning, hurting, or killing.

A lot of these views come from the hollywood bastardization of the arts and improper research on just what a "martial art" is. There will always be some element of fighting in the art, but how much will vary. It's how you can guage just how "martial" the art is.

Martial pertains to war, and this eliminates about all of the American "self defense" systems from that category.


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## Elayna (Aug 7, 2006)

Hiya , 

I just wanted to say that I do agree that there are different martial arts out there with differing degrees of "martial" intent (excuse the name use, lol). But then there are those arts, such as aikido that was pointed out, that the bases of it was not only for hurting/killing people.  It was much more then that.

I know that this is probably an old tired statement of mine, but again I say...
We need to also concentrate on the "heart of the art" as much as the body and the mind.  If we do not have balance in our arts, and everything in the world needs balance, then something bad will come of it.  Nothing can stay imbalanced for too long.

I will continue to discuss and convey my thoughts on future threads. Not only about this topic but many others that have come to my attention.

I hope everyone will respond to those as well.  I really do love the feedback.  Thanks again everyone for the wonderful replies.
This will be my last post on this thread, as I believe this thread has taken a wrong turn somewhere, and that wasnt the "point" of the thread.
 

TTYL


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 7, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> * Andrew has a weird vision of a bunch of Samurai charging out onto the battlefield and yelling "Group Hug!" *


 
I'm sorry and I do not mean to upset anybody, but the above deserve a reply

:lfao: :lol2: :lfao: :lol2:


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## Shaolinwind (Aug 7, 2006)

Elayna said:
			
		

> Hiya ,
> 
> I just wanted to say that I do agree that there are different martial arts out there with differing degrees of "martial" intent (excuse the name use, lol). But then there are those arts, such as aikido that was pointed out, that the bases of it was not only for hurting/killing people. It was much more then that.


 
I see.. So which of the arts IS about hurting and killing people?  You have suggested such an art exists.



> This will be my last post on this thread, as I believe this thread has taken a wrong turn somewhere, and that wasnt the "point" of the thread.


 
It is irresponsible to duck out of the thread you started.  I am sorry it took a turn you don't like, but it never took a wrong turn.


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## Elayna (Aug 7, 2006)

Shaolin...

I specifically stated "differing degrees".  Your interpretation of my post is unfourtunate.  And I have a feeling that no matter how I say something it will not be right for you.

Also, when I state that my thread took a wrong turn, i was refering to you.  Yes I said a specific.  I will not get into a flame war about this. 
I do not appreciate how you responded to my apology.  By stating I should NOT convey my thoughts, you were in fact stating I should not speak. Therefore stating I should go against god given rights.  Now if this is not what you meant....then please by all means re word it as I have done with my posts.  All will be well.

No offense was ever meant.  When you said you did take offense I apologized...this is as much as anyone can do. Your reaction is yours alone.  Not my problem.

Good day to you.


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## Brother John (Aug 7, 2006)

It's been my experience that some are drawn to the martial arts because they are naturally drawn to strife....or maybe a better word is "Struggle". The arts give them a way to express this in a socially acceptable manner. BUT: THey bring their passion for it to places like martial talk. By all means, we should be "Passionate" about something we invest so much of ourselves into! But maturity and a level head are not prerequisites to being a martial artist..but a goal. I think that many don't realize that the best way to obtain such a goal is to _behave_ as though you'd already achieved it. (something to think about in many respects there) 
In short (too late) we get hot headed, we read things into what others write and we often react in a knee jerk way. It happens a lot. It happens to ME. I'll admit that. 

I really don't know why a martial arts forum is SO conducive to 'angry' chatter, but it is. But it's up to each of us to be self observant and try to limit that kind of behavior (and therefore example) on our own part.

We must BE the change we wish to see...

Your Brother
John


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## Shaolinwind (Aug 7, 2006)

Elayna said:
			
		

> Shaolin...
> 
> I specifically stated "differing degrees". Your interpretation of my post is unfourtunate. And I have a feeling that no matter how I say something it will not be right for you.
> 
> ...


 
God given rights?  Once again you have missed the boat.  You speak like you are some kind of messiah, and you are merely a stranger in a strange land.  It is clear that you have no intent of learning, you just wish to save face.  Good day to you.


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## Brother John (Aug 7, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> * Andrew has a weird vision of a bunch of Samurai charging out onto the battlefield and yelling "Group Hug!" *
> 
> No, martial arts, at the core, are about beating the snot out of people. It's not nice, lots of people don't like to admit it, but that is what we are learning to do.
> 
> ...


Hey Andrew-

You and I see things in a similar vein, but here's my twist...
The Martial Arts began from a need to survive human conflict, one on one or in the battle field...and this gets DIRTY and MEAN, ruthless and bloody....down right nasty....visceral. (Enough descriptors yet?) 
Here's where we might part however...what's the biproduct of the warriors life?
When these warriors of old dedicated themselves to an aesetic life, or at least a life of severe dedication to warriorship...they faced down Death, and the probability of a short life ending in a greusome death at the hands of an enemy. They took it quite seriously. This changes the human psyche dramatically. When death is not only confronted, but the probability of it's emenency.... then life itself takes on a _different hue_, your perspective changes a great deal. ..and when you face violence and the ferocity of war as not only probable..but your calling, then peace takes on a different perspective as well. 
The CORE reason for arts of war is WAR, but the by-product is a worthy cause in and of itself! This, I think, is what Elayna seems to be valuing so greatly here.....and More Power to her!! Seems to me there were a great many "martial arts masters" who felt as she did, that these "by-products" are very worthy of our effort. 
Japan provides a wonderful example: at the end of the Meiji era (just before the turn of the 20th century I think) there was a dramatic shift in focus for the martial arts of Japan from the Bujutsu (War Technique) to Budo (Warrior's way of life, very roughly translated). I'm sure I'm not telling you anything you don't already know. But these masters that were a part of this transition, I think, recognized these 'by-products' (peace, peace of mind, tranquility, maturity, austerity, simplicity, honor, duty, loyalty, a spirit of perseverance...etc. etc.) as worthy of being passed on and emphasized. The "Killing" was de-emphasized a great deal...and this end of the stick (so to speak) was lifted higher. This effected MORE than just the Koryu arts of Japan....but was a trend that mirrored the Taoist and Confucian influenced arts of China and the arts that later developed in Korea.

Today there are many that emphasize BOTH sides of this spectrum, and I think it's GREAT. 
Some want to take it all the way back to where the art of human struggle and warriorship is the key focus....and GOOD for them, if it gets them what they want from their pursuit. I think that to do this to the exclusion of these other "By-products" is a mistake and maybe, in it's extreme....irrisponsible...
but that's not my worry; just my comment.
Still: a great many DO stick with the "way of life" trend, and that's great. Again: they need to know that IF they totally de-emphasize their skills of defeating another human in combat...then they are MUCH less prepared should they ever face such a struggle. (God forbid it anyway...) They shouldn't decieve themselves and think that they are warriors if they don't train as warriors do. But in the end, if it gets them what they want from their training...its served it's purpose.

WOW....I've taken a lot to say, it's all in what the art, school or student wants to focus on. 
ME? I'd like to focus on all of it, the mental and spiritual and physical. Maybe if I do....I'm a greater blessing to my family, friends and associates.......wether what they need from me is physical protection or someone with a level head who can function under stress; or just someone who's calm to be around.

Your Brother
John


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## Last Fearner (Aug 8, 2006)

I am not a "moderator" here at MT, but as a "Mentor" I believe I should say that some of the earlier comments are off topic, and a bit too antagonistic.  For a thread that was started to point out the hostilities, and rude behavior among Martial Artists, some posts have drifted off into more personal attacks, and degenerated to the very thing we should avoid.

Agree, or disagree, and state why you feel the way you do.  If someone feels offended by your words, a simple apology, and encouraging words to keep everyone enjoying the thread will lift up the conversation..

Brother John.  I enjoyed your last post, especially the comment about "this end of the stick" being lifted higher (nice analogy).  Keep up the good posts, sir.

Respects to all. :asian: 
Last Fearner


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## lenatoi (Aug 8, 2006)

I've got to say this. When someone apologises, let them apologize. If someone wants to save face, don't try to embarass them. I love coming here to MT, but I've seen a lot of this going on here. half the time people get offended when no offence was intended. let things slide once in a while.


PS I was not aiming this post at any one in particular.... Please don't yell at me.


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## Fu_Bag (Aug 8, 2006)

I have to agree with Last Fearner.  Excellent post Brother John!  As for the other issue, it's an appalling show of behavior for a forum member, a human being, a man, and a martial artist.  I've seen domestic abuse and I can tell you that when a man says "I accept your apology" and then continues to pummell a woman who repeatedly makes apologies even during the pummelling, it's disgusting.  It shows the true character of the abuser, that they have no business speaking on behalf of anyone who's been offended here, and that they have a LONG way to go in their martial arts studies.

As we all know, many people who get involved with martial arts have lived through domestic abuse.  What good is it to provide them with flashbacks in the name of "protecting them"?  I'm neither a mentor, nor a moderator but I think that a person who conducts themselves in such a way can hardly be considered a black belt of anything and are a piss-poor example of what it means to be a black belt.

Funakoshi-sensei once wrote about how ashamed he was at wanting to disregard his instructors admonitions not to beat up a bunch of thugs.  His instructor did everything possible to avoid harming the thugs because it was clear they would've been slaughtered by the dojo members.  Later, the thugs actually came to the master's dojo and apologized.  The master, however, did not say "I accept your apology" while beating the crap out of them.  Funakoshi-sensei then went on to say that he felt very ashamed that he had wanted to use his strength and training against untrained men.  

There is an important lesson there and I hope that I've relayed it in such a way so that it is easily understood.  If I haven't, perhaps a moderator could.........  The posts in question have absolutely NO place on a "Friendly" discussion board.


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