# Just for the fun of it....



## Paul B (Jan 4, 2005)

How many different areas of Turning leaf/Two finger throw/Kote Gaeshi do you do/know? Feel free to explain one if you feel it's of a more rare nature. I have counted different motions such as moving in and turning. I am trying not to think of combo's,more of a "go right into it " type of thing......

1. Straight wrist grab-4
2. Cross wrist grab-4
3. Fighting stance grab(attacking)-4
4. Chest /Clothing grab-5
5. Rear wrist(s) grab-3
6. Rear elbow grab-2
7. Rear shoulder grab-2
8. Punch-6
9. Push-6
10.Strikes ie backfist/knife/ridge etc.....Oh no...I've gone cross-eyed. :lol:

You get the idea.  Come on guys...there's nothing else going on.....


----------



## Master Todd Miller (Jan 4, 2005)

1. Straight wrist grab-4
2. Cross wrist grab-4
3. Fighting stance grab(attacking)-4
4. Chest /Clothing grab-5
5. Rear wrist(s) grab-3
6. Rear elbow grab-2
7. Rear shoulder grab-2
8. Punch-6
9. Push-6
10.Strikes ie backfist/knife/ridge etc.....Oh no...I've gone cross-eyed. 

In addition to that list:
11. Pull/push 2 handed
12. Reach under sword cut
13. Thumb cut
14. Knife defense: Twist cut

In Korea this technique is called Son Mok Guhki.  We have 3 basic versions Il-Bon, E-Bon, Sam-Bon,  All versions are considered the same basic technique.

The Son Mok Guhki is one of True Hapkido's most interesting techniques.

www.millersmudo.com


----------



## Paul B (Jan 4, 2005)

Thanks Todd!

Now since my Korean is rudimentary at best,what does Son Mok Guhki and Bon translate into approximately,if you would be so kind? 

And I completely forgot weapons....jeesh! *smacks forehead*


----------



## glad2bhere (Jan 5, 2005)

Dear Paul: 

We use 5 versions including Pro-forma (standard or basic), Forward, Rearward, Turning, and Descending. All of these can be done Straight Grab, Cross-grab, Off the Strike and as a response to an attack with a weapon. Doing the Math--- 5 versions against 4 modalities---- we have 20 Turning Leaf or Outward Wrist Throws though I I don't usually count the same techniques done in response to an alternate mode a true "separate" or "different" technique. Some folks do, though. In fact it could also be broken into very small differences such as "used against a Straight Punch", used against a descending Knifehand Strike" and so forth. 

As far as the Korean, well GM Myung identifies this simply as "wrist throw" in his kebonsu. In his Korean text its "somok paoiri kuhki" (lit: "wrist, turning outward, throw"). Most of the other Hapkido traditions just subsume the technique under "somok sool" (lit: "wrist techniques), give it a number and leave it at that.  FWIW. 

BTW: The use of the term "bon" needs to be kept separate from "hyung sae". While the use of the latter term identifies the overall activity of using form, "hyung sae" is a single example of a form. In this way one can participate in "bon" by executing a number of "hyung". 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## kwanjang (Jan 5, 2005)

Paul B said:
			
		

> How many different areas of Turning leaf/Two finger throw/Kote Gaeshi do you do/know? Feel free to explain one if you feel it's of a more rare nature. I have counted different motions such as moving in and turning. I am trying not to think of combo's,more of a "go right into it " type of thing......
> 
> 1. Straight wrist grab-4
> 2. Cross wrist grab-4
> ...



Paul, how high up the ladder do you want to go with this?  For example: we have 11 straight wrist techniques for novice (White/Yellow), but then there are more as we go to higher belts.


----------



## Paul B (Jan 5, 2005)

Hey guys,

Bruce..it's good to see you back! I admit I do feel like there's really only as many ways to execute this as you said...but hey..there wasn't much else going on. 

I'm sure if we counted all the minute variations of this particular technique,we could use quite a bit of bandwidth,but I was thinking of more "common" attacks while using a different defending motion into the technique.Does that make sense?:mst: 

Mr. Timmerman...11 different versions of the same technique or 11 different wrist techniques? Either way..if your fingers and patience are up to it,I would like to see the list. 

On another note,"Bon" can mean form also? What I am getting is like saying for a technique...(sorry for the Nihongo).. "Ikkyo"...which of course means first level/teaching/step/ .So would I be right in the assumption that saying "Il Bon" would mean approximately the same thing as Ikkyo?


----------



## glad2bhere (Jan 5, 2005)

Dear Paul: 

".....On another note,"Bon" can mean form also? What I am getting is like saying for a technique...(sorry for the Nihongo).. "Ikkyo"...which of course means first level/teaching/step/ .So would I be right in the assumption that saying "Il Bon" would mean approximately the same thing as Ikkyo?..." 

Er--- well... yes and no. It would depend on how you are viewing Ikkyo. 

If, as in the case of DRAJJ, you viewed Ikkajo cum Ikkyo as a constellation of "control" or "immobilation" techniques that share a common biomechanic (locking the elbow joint), I suppose you could make an arguement for it. 

You could also make a case by identifying the first level of skills (J. "waza", K. "sool") as "Il Bon" or "First Form" meaning "first level of practice". In this way a number of Hapkido arts have what they call "ke-bon-su" or core-forms.

If you imagine that you are out on the floor doing a form and someone asked you what you were doing you would not be wrong if you said "bon" or if you said "hyung". Bon would be the activity (form-work) and the hyung would be a discrete portion of that formwork.

If its of any help, what you are going to bump into in this are the following. 

a.) The graphics and meaning of the original Chinese Character. 

b.) The interpretation of the Chinese ideographs both by Korean and Japanese reading. 

c.) The transliteration between Korean and Japanese and by extension into English. 

d.) Finally, at what point in time are the above actions being taken. 

For myself I think the best thing is to go with Korean Han-ja, which is to say, compare the Japanese interpretation to its Korean reading and then transliterate the result into English. I think in this way one makes best use of Japanese organizational skills while remaining faithful to Korean traditions and values. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## Paul B (Jan 5, 2005)

This is what I was going for...within a particular technique set as described by Todd...thanks. 



> You could also make a case by identifying the first level of skills (J. "waza", K. "sool") as "Il Bon" or "First Form" meaning "first level of practice".


I also noticed this part....(sorry for shredding your post )



> In this way a number of Hapkido arts have what they call "ke-bon-su" or core-forms.


Hmmm...(K) ke-bon-su vs. (J) ki-hon-dosa.... interesting.



> If you imagine that you are out on the floor doing a form and someone asked you what you were doing you would not be wrong if you said "bon" or if you said "hyung". Bon would be the activity (form-work) and the hyung would be a discrete portion of that formwork.


 
OK...bear with me here...Are you saying that the technique(s) contained in the form(roughly) could be called "Bon",but the form as *a whole* would be hyung sae? Or do I have that backwards? :lol: My reading comp. is taking the day off.




> For myself I think the best thing is to go with Korean Han-ja, which is to say, compare the Japanese interpretation to its Korean reading and then transliterate the result into English. I think in this way one makes best use of Japanese organizational skills while remaining faithful to Korean traditions and values. FWIW.


Agreed...I guess I had better start learning Hanja and the Korean language. Oh boy.


----------



## glad2bhere (Jan 5, 2005)

Dear Paul: 

See if this helps. 

An action expressed by the body or a tool to accomplish a goal = Sool 

A number of sool strung together to express a premise = Hyung 

The study of a hyung or a number of hyung in order to understand the premise = Bon. 

BTW: For folks intersted in learning Korean I just found this website. FWIW. 

http://www.johnwasham.com/koreanonline/arts.shtml

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## Bob D. (Jan 5, 2005)

Can anyone link a picture showing the technique in question?

Bob


----------



## glad2bhere (Jan 5, 2005)

Dear Bob: 

What reference material do you have? I can probably identify it for you.

 In the KSW (Vol 1) material it is the Ke Bon Su #5. 

The WHF people identify it as Ke Bon Su #2. 

Dr He Young Kimm (Han Mu Do) has it listed as Sun Sool #9

Hope this is of some help. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## Paul B (Jan 5, 2005)

Thanks Bruce,

Yep,that helped. I'll just have to think on it for a while. Thanks for the link,also...I now have a new addition to my favorites.


----------



## kwanjang (Jan 5, 2005)

Hello Paul:
I think it would be easiest if I sent you some of our curriculum sheets, or maybe I can bring some with me when I get to the Chicago area.  Waaay to much to type for an old goat like me lol.


----------



## Bob D. (Jan 6, 2005)

OK, I missed where "kote-gaeshi" was mentioned. We call this "Reverse wrist break" or "outside wrist break". It is found in our first formal set "hoshin son mok sul" (defense against hand grabs). There are 8 variations within the 30 SMS set. A lot more through 1st dan. I'll have to think about it.


----------

