# Boxing/Muay Thai and head trauma



## justanormalguy (Sep 28, 2015)

I am still trying to decide on a martial art/self defense course to start (I originally was looking at Krav Maga but have read a lot of negative about it) and am leaning towards boxing/Muay Thai.  However, I do have a concern about head trauma (I have read many of the studies on football players and Chronic traumatic encephalopathy) and these two disciplines.  I've watched my grandparents go through Alzheimer's and Parkinsan's disease and  I want to keep my brain as health as possible!  I have no desire to compete in either of these, just want to learn how to better defend myself and my family, gain confidence and get in better shape.  Thoughts?


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## lklawson (Sep 28, 2015)

justanormalguy said:


> I am still trying to decide on a martial art/self defense course to start (I originally was looking at Krav Maga but have read a lot of negative about it) and am leaning towards boxing/Muay Thai.  However, I do have a concern about head trauma (I have read many of the studies on football players and Chronic traumatic encephalopathy) and these two disciplines.


Yes, concussion and brain injury, with the possibility for long term or cumulative damage is a risk for professional boxers.  Muhammad Ali didn't get the way he is now by eating Kale.



> I've watched my grandparents go through Alzheimer's and Parkinsan's disease and  I want to keep my brain as health as possible!  I have no desire to compete in either of these, just want to learn how to better defend myself and my family, gain confidence and get in better shape.  Thoughts?


The most recent research seems to indicate that Alzheimer's may be caused by something similar to Prion disease instead of concussion.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## drop bear (Sep 28, 2015)

Does head trauma cause Parkinson's? I can't imagine Michael j fox being much of a boxer.


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## Danny T (Sep 28, 2015)

Far more people train and do not have Parkinson's than those who train and do have Parkinson's.


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## justanormalguy (Sep 28, 2015)

There have been a number of studies linking head trauma to higher risks of Parkinson's disease.  Obviously there are varying risks in most sports.  But at 40 years old, I'm trying to think of my kids and the burden that any memory loss can cause families.


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## justanormalguy (Sep 28, 2015)

http://www.pdf.org/en/science_news/release/pr_1433778887

MILD HEAD INJURY MAY INCREASE RISK FOR PARKINSON DISEASE : Neurology Today

Traumatic Brain Injury May Increase Parkinson’s Risk


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## justanormalguy (Sep 28, 2015)

What I was trying to ask is how much head contact is there in boxing / muay thai if I were to not compete in competitions?


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## kuniggety (Sep 28, 2015)

What negatives have you read about Krav Maga? I don't practice it but it can be good or bad. From what I've seen there has been a lot of commercialization of it and bad programs out there but there are also legit instructors. It's the same of McDojos for TKD or Karate. You just have to do your research on the teacher/school.

As for boxing/Muay Thai, at some point you will spar. Most of your training will be pad work but the only way to really test yourself in a self-defense/stressed environment is to actually spar. That sparring will involve people trying to punch you in the face. If that's not something that you can deal with then maybe boxing/Muay Thai is not for you. Maybe a grappling art? Every martial art you take is going to have some sort of risk of injury attached to it.


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## Danny T (Sep 28, 2015)

Depending on how you train and practice. There are ways to train without taking a lot of head shots. Especially when learning and practicing fundamentals. Sparring doesn't have to be with hard power punching or hard head kicks. Talk with your coaches and training partners - have fun.


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## justanormalguy (Sep 29, 2015)

Thanks!  Any thoughts on this program:

Boxing/Kickboxing
Kenji

The place just opened and it less than 5 minutes from my house.


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 29, 2015)

justanormalguy said:


> Thai. However, I do have a concern about head trauma (I have read many of the studies on football players and Chronic traumatic encephalopathy) and these two disciplines.





justanormalguy said:


> What I was trying to ask is how much head contact is there in boxing / muay thai if I were to not compete in competitions?



Any impact to the skull carries _some_ risk of brain injury, but a casual hobbyist training for self-defense will generally be taking a tiny percentage of the head trauma that a serious competitive fighter will go through. If you find the right place to train, you should be okay.

Heck, you could just train drills - pad work, bag work, foot work, etc - and get significant benefits in your conditioning and ability to punch. However I would recommend getting in at least some contact sparring. If you have the right coach and the right sparring partners (ones who are helping you learn rather than trying to knock you out) it is extremely valuable and relatively safe.



justanormalguy said:


> Thanks! Any thoughts on this program:
> 
> Boxing/Kickboxing
> Kenji



Looks worth checking out. It sounds like the group classes are focused on conditioning and fundamentals. They probably don't include any sparring.


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## justanormalguy (Sep 29, 2015)

Thanks!  Any thoughts on the instructor....he seems pretty legit:

Kenji


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 29, 2015)

justanormalguy said:


> Thanks!  Any thoughts on the instructor....he seems pretty legit:
> 
> Kenji


Hmm ... interesting character. I would do some thorough research before getting too involved with him.

Apparently his real name is Kenny Gallo. Supposedly a former Mafia member, turned informant and gone straight, and former producer of porn films. He claims to have a black belt in BJJ and to have competitive fight experience (no mention of what sort of fight competition). However I can't find any mention of who he trained BJJ with or who gave him his rank. (This is a big red flag.) I also can't find any mention of what boxing or kickboxing background he might have.

He might have legit skills and be a good coach and be a good person. However I would ask a _lot_ of questions* and do due diligence before signing up.

*(And independently verify the answers)


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## crazydiamond (Sep 29, 2015)

justanormalguy said:


> What I was trying to ask is how much head contact is there in boxing / muay thai if I were to not compete in competitions?


 

My mom died of complications with Parkinson's and I am 50 so its been a worry of mine (In fact I started a thread on being hit). I started over a year ago in a MMA that includes boxing and Muay Thai.  I train for self defense and recreation. I am not training for competition. Only recently have i started including sparing with real contact - maybe 20% power hits with 16 oz gloves. Only maybe 15 mins a week for the head contact sparing (lots of Pad/bag/Shadow work rest of week).  My school also includes a full on Muay Thai class that I watch and its all light taps (20% or less hits). No one spars hard enough to wear headgear.

My view is that your not going to get wacked hard enough or long enough in a "middle aged guy" class at a local school.  But you could talk to the instructors. I think boxing of any type is good exercise and safe for us normal guys taking class for SD reasons.


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## justanormalguy (Sep 29, 2015)

Interesting is an understatement!

How The FBI Turned A Mafioso Into A MMA Fighter


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 29, 2015)

justanormalguy said:


> Interesting is an understatement!
> 
> How The FBI Turned A Mafioso Into A MMA Fighter


One thing the story doesn't make clear - Gallo may have been training MMA at a gym, but he hadn't actually competed and really shouldn't be called an "MMA fighter". The article, written in 2009, says he was looking to make his debut, but I can't find any records of him having any matches since then. It's possible that he's had some amateur matches that haven't been reported to the Sherdog database.

I suspect that when he list some of the big names he has "trained with", it really just means he went to the same gym as those guys.

It's entirely possible that the guy is a decent coach, but I would be careful.


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## justanormalguy (Sep 29, 2015)

Thanks!  I sent him an email asking for more information on the program and am waiting to hear back.


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 29, 2015)

justanormalguy said:


> Thanks!  I sent him an email asking for more information on the program and am waiting to hear back.


If he tells you who awarded him his BJJ black belt, let me know.


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## justanormalguy (Sep 30, 2015)

Well, I attended my fist class at Fusion Health & Performance and I must say I was pretty impressed.  Now I admit I have no experience when it comes to martial arts/self defense classes but this is how the class was structured (from what I remember:

1.  Jump rope warm up
2.  Instructor went over jab punch and had me practice without resistance
3.  Instructor went over cross punch and had me practice without resistance
4.  Instructor had me practice combinations of these two punches while punching his hands
5.   Instructor went over hook punch and had me practice without resistance
6.  Instructor had me practice combinations of these three punches while punching his hands.  I think he could tell I was having issues with the hook and didn't incorporate it for the rest of the class.
7.  Instructor had me work on my foot work.  He had me move with him back and forward protecting my chest and weak side.
8.  Instructor had me practice punch combinations on the heavy bag.
9.  Instructor had me practice punch combinations while shadow boxing.
10. Instructor had me practice punch combinations while hitting his padded hands.
11.  Instructor had me do ab work (crunches, leg lifts, etc).

Class lasted 45 minutes (normal length) and he did say he normally has students do kettle ball and medicine ball work but didn't want to overdue it on my first day (he knew I was winded).

Some observations from the class:

1.  The instructor was very friendly, seemed very knowledgeable and always corrected me when he saw I was doing something incorrectly.
2.  I was the only person in the class so I basically got a private lesson for $10 (regular drop in price).  The facility has only been open a week and half so not many people know about it yet.  I asked him how many people he has had in previous classes and he said he has been averaging a couple.  He also mentioned that he is training a boxer.
3.  He really stressed protecting body/face with hand placement, using hips and legs when punching, rotating shoulders when punching, breathing, relaxing etc.  I don't know much about boxing but this seems consistent with other sports I've played.
4.  He also showed me a video of him sparring (to show how he was relaxed when he sparred).  He did show me some of the kickboxing moves on a heavy bag (kicks, using elbows, using knees etc) but did not have me try them.  I think he was just trying to give me an idea how boxing works with kickboxing.
5.  He also mentioned that he will eventually be incorporating some BJJ into the training.
6.  I felt he pushed me a good amount.  Considering it was my first class I was pretty tired and sweaty.  He seemed to know how to push me but not go overboard.
7.  He was open about his past when I asked him.  I asked him why he moved here from California and he said he is recently married and his wife is from here.   He also said he is still training at another local gym.  I didn't ask too many questions about his past but he answered whatever I asked. 

Overall I was very impressed with the class and instructor and will definitely be going back.  Let me know if my observations seem on point or if I should be concerned about anything.  Thanks!


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 30, 2015)

Sounds like a good class. It's always fun when you're the only student and end up getting a private lesson. I actually like it when I'm the teacher as well, because I can tailor the lesson to the individual.

Let me know if you find out who awarded him his BJJ black belt.


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## justanormalguy (Sep 30, 2015)

Thanks!  I'll ask him next class.

I do need to order/buy the following:

A jump rope - I'm assuming a 10' since I'm 6'2"?
Hand wraps - Suggestions?
Gloves - They are selling some at the gym but want $52 (I think they were ProForce 16 ounce?)  Any suggestions on weight and brand?
Heavy bag - I'm trying to find a cheap one one craigslist or a resale shop.  Any suggestions?

Anything else I need?


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 30, 2015)

10' jump rope should be fine, but there are apparently adjustable ones available. (I haven't tried the adjustable ones, but Amazon has one for 6.99 which looks good.)

I'm still using my original Ringside Mexican style hand wraps that I bought 20 years ago. They're a bit ragged but still functional. I don't know if the brand matters that much - it's hard to screw up a length of flat cloth with some Velcro on one end.

For the gloves, it matters whether you intend to spar, compete, or just use them for bag work. Ask your coach what weight he wants you to start with. ProForce is fine, but you can get them much cheaper online. Amazon has 16 oz ProForce gloves for 18.44 (Leatherette) or 29.99 (real leather).

Heavy bag - I've always just used whatever the gym has, since it's not practical to hang one in an apartment. Maybe other members can chime in with their preferences.


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## Danny T (Sep 30, 2015)

Sounds like you had a good first experience.
As to equipment;
Ask your coach for his recommendations as to the type of glove/s you will be needing.
At 6'2" you should probable be using 16 oz Training Gloves vs bag gloves or sparring gloves. The design of good training gloves will give you the protection and support of both a bag glove and a pad work glove as well as light sparring.
Bag gloves tend to be more dense and a bit lighter for the intensity of heavy bag work whereas a sparring glove is usually larger and is less dense to protect the opponent in sparring and tends to wear out or break down with heavy bag work. Bear knuckle punching gloves offer no protection other than preventing the tearing of the skin on your knuckles when pounding on the heavy bag. Muay Thai style training gloves are also designed to protect the opponent, when doing clinch work, from neck abrasions from the velcro on the cuff straps.
When it comes to handwraps I strongly recommend getting a couple of pairs of Mexican style or semi-elastic style vs the plain cotton. They are a lot easier to untangle, lay flatter allowing you to wrap easier, and they will last longer. Depending on how much you train you will want to have a clean pair vs wearing the same stinking and wet with sweat from the last workout again and again.


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## justanormalguy (Sep 30, 2015)

What about these:

Sparring Gloves - Boxing Gloves | KO Fightgear


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## Danny T (Sep 30, 2015)

justanormalguy said:


> What about these:
> 
> Sparring Gloves - Boxing Gloves | KO Fightgear


I haven't used these but they appear to be a Muay Thai design. If it is a sparring glove is should be less dense than a bag glove. It is leather but I can not give a recommendation as to fit, comfort, or quality.


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## Dinkydoo (Oct 1, 2015)

Pretty much agree with what has already been said, particularly Danny's comment about wet, stinking gear! 

I had a freestanding bag that you filled the base with water or sand which was quite good and retailed at around £100. It lasted about 2 1/2 years with only a couple of small tears that I managed to fix, until recently when various parts of it started giving way - it's been sitting at my parent's house for a while now since I moved into a new flat, so I probably got a bit excited about the prospect of using it again and it was too worn out to survive! I can lookup the make/model when I get some free time if you'd find it useful....

I live in a middle floor flat now so other than doing dumbell exercises and the odd bit of shadow boxing, my home is no longer the make-shift gym it once was. If you're joining somewhere with access to facilities 5 - 7 days a week then I'd skip on buying a heavy bag, to be honest. It's what I'm doing now.

As for gloves, they don't need to be super expensive....just comfortable and fit-for-purpose. I have a seperate set for sparring and bagwork


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## Transk53 (Oct 1, 2015)

justanormalguy said:


> Interesting is an understatement!
> 
> How The FBI Turned A Mafioso Into A MMA Fighter



Interesting but typical strory really, but with the exception that a so called FBI protected citizen, then tells the world what he is doing etc.


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## justanormalguy (Dec 3, 2015)

So I'm back.  After taking a couple of boxing classes, I am not sure this is what I'm looking for.  The classes seem to be much more tailored to physical fitness (the classes are exhausting - no mention of self defense at all).  The majority of the participates are women and I get the feeling are just there for a good work out (there is only one other guy in the class and he seems to have some past boxing experience).  The instructor has also started to mix some kickboxing into the classes.

So my choices are to stick with the boxing or try a different place (there are schools that offer, Tae Kwon Do, Hap Ki Do and Judo all in my town).  Thoughts?


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## Kenpoguy123 (Dec 3, 2015)

justanormalguy said:


> I am still trying to decide on a martial art/self defense course to start (I originally was looking at Krav Maga but have read a lot of negative about it) and am leaning towards boxing/Muay Thai.  However, I do have a concern about head trauma (I have read many of the studies on football players and Chronic traumatic encephalopathy) and these two disciplines.  I've watched my grandparents go through Alzheimer's and Parkinsan's disease and  I want to keep my brain as health as possible!  I have no desire to compete in either of these, just want to learn how to better defend myself and my family, gain confidence and get in better shape.  Thoughts?


by doing those sports doesn't mean your going to get hit. The only way of getting head injuries in training is sparring. Now it depends on the gym but in my kickboxing gym you don't have to spar there's an hour before hand of just focus mit work which is non contact


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## crazydiamond (Dec 3, 2015)

justanormalguy said:


> So I'm back.  After taking a couple of boxing classes, I am not sure this is what I'm looking for.  The classes seem to be much more tailored to physical fitness (the classes are exhausting - no mention of self defense at all).  The majority of the participates are women and I get the feeling are just there for a good work out (there is only one other guy in the class and he seems to have some past boxing experience).  The instructor has also started to mix some kickboxing into the classes.
> 
> So my choices are to stick with the boxing or try a different place (there are schools that offer, Tae Kwon Do, Hap Ki Do and Judo all in my town).  Thoughts?



Hapkido is my vote, try out a few classes.

I get what you mean about different types of boxing (fitness vs real). I noticed the gal next to me at work had boxing gloves in her bag. I said "oh you take boxing?" she replied yes. I then explained I was trying to replace my current mouth-guard, and what brand did she use? She looked at me in in horror and shock - "not that kid of boxing!".


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## justanormalguy (Dec 3, 2015)

Here are the credentials of the Hapkido instructor:

    Master Lee

7th degree black belt in Tae Kwon Do


 4th degree black belt in Hap Ki Do


 World Tae Kwon Do Headquarters Certified Instructor


 US Hap Ki Do Black Eagle  Illinoise State president


 US Tae Kwon Do  Chung Do Kwan Director


 USAT Tae Kwon Do Certified referee


 Korea police Academy Hap Ki Do Instructor (1998)


 Korea State Police Headquarters Tae Kwon Do Instructor(1998)


 Korea SWAT Team Head Instructor (1999 - 2002)


 Korea Presidential and Vip Guard (1999 - 2002)


 2002 Korea World Cup Guard


 2000 Asia - Europe President Meeting Guard (ASEM)


 Hap Ki Do State Sparring Team 1996-1997


 Hap Ki Do National Demonstration Team (Black Eagle, 1993- 1998)


 Tae Kwon Do State Sparring Team 1999-2000


 Korea SWAT Team Champion 2002


 Came to USA in 2002


 Master lee has earned national recognition for his martial art  skills and teaching methods in the korea, he contributed  to SWAT team and police to save many hostages and Citizens safely from criminals, Master Lee  currently directs all his efforts to bring the benefits of Martial arts to the local community.


    Master Cho

7th degree black belt in Hap Ki Do 


 Head of International Department of the Hap Ki Do Heuk Choo Kwan Association


 Technical Director of the Heuk Choo Kwan Association


 Instructor of the korean Martial Arts School


 Demonstration Director of the Black Eagle Central Demonstration Team


 Supervisor of Hap Ki Do Seminars in US, UK, Portugal, Australia


 1st Class International Referee of Hap Ki Do


 1st Class Referee of Korean Hap ki Do Competition Association


 1993 Hap Ki Do World Competition Champion

Thoughts?


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## drop bear (Dec 3, 2015)

justanormalguy said:


> Here are the credentials of the Hapkido instructor:
> 
> Master Lee
> 
> ...



OK. Now bear in mind none of that may be true. But also a lot of that could be verified. So you go through those credentials with the Google fu and see if it stacks up.

So now we start chasing.

For example this?

What the?


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## justanormalguy (Dec 3, 2015)

My other option is to take private lessons from the guy that teaches the boxing.  He seemed very knowledgeable when I had my first class which was one on one (no one else showed up).  I could tell him I want more self defense and less cardio.


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## Tony Dismukes (Dec 3, 2015)

justanormalguy said:


> Here are the credentials of the Hapkido instructor:



Probably easier to just link to the websites of the other schools you are considering. We're more likely to spot any red flags that way.



drop bear said:


> OK. Now bear in mind none of that may be true. But also a lot of that could be verified. So you go through those credentials with the Google fu and see if it stacks up.



Also in some cases the credentials may be honest but don't mean anything as impressive as what they sound like.



drop bear said:


> For example this?
> 
> What the?



That opening demo was particularly embarrassing. I don't know if it has any connection to the instructors in question though. (Other than being hapkido)



justanormalguy said:


> My other option is to take private lessons from the guy that teaches the boxing.



If it's affordable under your budget, this may be worth checking out.


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## justanormalguy (Dec 3, 2015)

Private lessons are only $20 for an hour I believe.  So it's actually more affordable than the Hapkido classes even.


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## drop bear (Dec 3, 2015)

justanormalguy said:


> My other option is to take private lessons from the guy that teaches the boxing.  He seemed very knowledgeable when I had my first class which was one on one (no one else showed up).  I could tell him I want more self defense and less cardio.



The hapkido is still not a bust.  We just need to look at it more closely.

If you are going to do a ring sport properly you will need cardio. 

It is no good being joe awesome for the first 30 seconds of a round and then calling a time out. 

It is no good sparring one round and sitting out. 

It is no good doing drills like a sloppy thing.  Or not getting enough reps in because your fitness let you down.


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## justanormalguy (Dec 3, 2015)

Thanks drop bear.  I understand the need for cardio.  But my primary reason for taking some sort of self defense/martial arts is to protect myself and my family.  I know the chances of such a situation ever arising are slim (and I hope they never do) but just having the skills are important to me.  So fitness would come below self defense and confidence on the list of things I want to gain.  I can work on fitness in other ways (running, lifting, HIIT, etc).  I have no plans on ever getting in a formal boxing ring and fighting for a round or multiple rounds (although I would like to spar).


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## drop bear (Dec 3, 2015)

justanormalguy said:


> Thanks drop bear.  I understand the need for cardio.  But my primary reason for taking some sort of self defense/martial arts is to protect myself and my family.  I know the chances of such a situation ever arising are slim (and I hope they never do) but just having the skills are important to me.  So fitness would come below self defense and confidence on the list of things I want to gain.  I can work on fitness in other ways (running, lifting, HIIT, etc).  I have no plans on ever getting in a formal boxing ring and fighting for a round or multiple rounds (although I would like to spar).



Good schools have fit students because they make better quality fighters. It is one of the ways of identifying a better quality school. 

One of the things we find is a guy cant spar a round.  So they do mabye a couple of minutes of effective training.  Our fighters spar 10 plus rounds which is 50 minutes of effective training. Just looking at the numbers. You will become better quicker if you train longer.


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## lklawson (Dec 4, 2015)

justanormalguy said:


> Here are the credentials of the Hapkido instructor:
> 
> Master Lee
> 
> ...


My thoughts?  It all *SOUNDS* impressive.  But who gives a crap? Demonstration Team, SWAT Instructor, and VIP Guard have jack-crap to do with what you're interested in.  Go try a few classes of each and stick with whichever one you find the most fun.  That's the one you will "stick with" over time, maintaining your training.

While I do, to a certain degree, believe that there are some "arts" which are "better for self defense" than some others, but, also to a certain degree, most of them, if trained diligently, will still give you a better shot than nothing.  And, further, as I implied, the one you stick with, even if it's just "mediocre," is a bunch better than the awesome fantastic one which you gave up because it wasn't fun or got you injured too often.  Like the old saw from "the great caliber wars" in the firearms arena, the .22LR handgun you have with you is better than the .45ACP you left home in your safe.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Dinkydoo (Dec 4, 2015)

justanormalguy said:


> So I'm back.  After taking a couple of boxing classes, I am not sure this is what I'm looking for.  The classes seem to be much more tailored to physical fitness (the classes are exhausting - no mention of self defense at all).  The majority of the participates are women and I get the feeling are just there for a good work out (there is only one other guy in the class and he seems to have some past boxing experience).  The instructor has also started to mix some kickboxing into the classes.
> 
> So my choices are to stick with the boxing or try a different place (there are schools that offer, Tae Kwon Do, Hap Ki Do and Judo all in my town).  Thoughts?


Sounds like the instructor is tailoring the class right now for what the vast majority of his students are looking for. 

It sounds like a (kick)boxercise class - you'll be lucky to get much in the way of fighting skill developed from one of those.


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## FriedRice (Jan 13, 2016)

Krav Maga (up to around Level 3) is probably the best for your needs and to avoid full KO shots to the head as part of training. Just realize that full contact is what really test out your abilities to defend yourself in a real situation.....and in general, a Muay Thai or full MMA fighter, will wreck you as their type of training is above yours (w/the exception of gun disarming).


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## lklawson (Jan 14, 2016)

FriedRice said:


> Krav Maga (up to around Level 3) is probably the best for your needs and to avoid full KO shots to the head as part of training. Just realize that full contact is what really test out your abilities to defend yourself in a real situation.....and in general, a Muay Thai or full MMA fighter, will wreck you as their type of training is above yours (w/the exception of gun disarming).


99.9% of all "gun disarming" is bull crap and will get you shot.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## FriedRice (Jan 14, 2016)

lklawson said:


> 99.9% of all "gun disarming" is bull crap and will get you shot.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



Says you. Lloyd Irvin actually disarmed a home invader using some Chinese MA training. That's why he's able to have  a CCW in Maryland, which is like winning the lottery....due to this incident. He talks about it here: 




Knife disarming is the much more questionable, IMO, but I still train that too, as well as fighting w/blades. But gun disarming, certainly is legit. I didn't say it wasn't risky as hell.  And yes, I have been in a firefight, although that really doesn't prove anything towards my argument about gun disarming.  

If they haven't shot you yet, then they want something or may shoot you after they get it. It's up to your instincts to decide. But I'd rather have my chopsocky, gun disarming training then none at all. I train 5-6 days a week, 2-3 classes per day....doing something different with guns & knives are quite a welcomed changed, if anything.


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## lklawson (Jan 15, 2016)

FriedRice said:


> Says you.


Yup.  And the vast host of firearms experts.



> And yes, I have been in a firefight,


I don't remember asking you about your credentials.  Or is this you asking me about mine?



> although that really doesn't prove anything towards my argument about gun disarming.


In the same way that Mr. Irvin's single success doesn't "prove" anything about the greater data set.



> But I'd rather have my chopsocky, gun disarming training then none at all.


Well, I agree that it's better than peeing your pants and crying like a little girl.  But the fact is that most of the "gun disarms" I've seen taught are BS and only "work" under an extremely narrow set of circumstances which require the person with the gun to have done some very dumb things which contradict logic and are in opposition with firearms, arrest, and "prisoner transport" training going back to at least WWII (in my research, but possibly much farther).  The two most egregious being 1) being far to close to the victim and 2) sticking the gun out where it's within easy reach, even from "behind."



> I train 5-6 days a week, 2-3 classes per day....doing something different with guns & knives are quite a welcomed changed, if anything.


I didn't ask about your training regiment.  I prefer to restrict my discussion (and arguments, if I'm having an argument) to the subject matter or claims being made, rather than trying to dissect or discredit the person making the argument.  So I don't care if you're a white belt with no more experience than watching WWE/WWF, if your claims and arguments hold up to scrutiny, I'll say that.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## jks9199 (Jan 15, 2016)

Unarmed disarming techniques whatever the weapon they're dealing with, are techniques of desperation with a fairly low probability of success. They beat simply standing there and dying, certainly, but they all rely on the armed person making dumb moves, or not seriously intending to hurt you. 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## FriedRice (Jan 15, 2016)

lklawson said:


> Yup.  And the vast host of firearms experts.
> 
> I don't remember asking you about your credentials.  Or is this you asking me about mine?
> 
> ...



You even admit that your argument is based on just reading whatever. I'm merely arguing that what you said about "99.9% of all "gun disarming" is bull crap and will get you shot."....is bull crap.

If the guy is 10 feet away with a gun, no duh that it's   not a wise move to try out whatever gun disarming training.  And did I tell you that I was in a firefight?


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## FriedRice (Jan 15, 2016)

jks9199 said:


> Unarmed disarming techniques whatever the weapon they're dealing with, are techniques of desperation with a fairly low probability of success. They beat simply standing there and dying, certainly, but they all rely on the armed person making dumb moves, or not seriously intending to hurt you.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk




Totally agree. It's like training MMA to the best of my ability, but if one day I'm locked in prison w/Connor McGregor for life and he's feeling horny....then my best bet is to try out what I've been training for all of these years....why not?


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## lklawson (Jan 15, 2016)

FriedRice said:


> You even admit that your argument is based on just reading whatever.


No, I didn't.  I wrote that the disarming techniques which I've seen are easily negated by techniques and training which I can document go back to at least WWII; meaning that the techniques being referenced are easy, well known, and widely distributed.  That's not the same thing as "based on just reading whatever."  Check your logic chain.



> I'm merely arguing that what you said about "99.9% of all "gun disarming" is bull crap and will get you shot."....is bull crap.


And your statement is still wrong.



> If the guy is 10 feet away with a gun, no duh that it's   not a wise move to try out whatever gun disarming training.


There are several things that are easily done which negate 99.9% of the gun disarms which I've seen taught.  All of them easy.  Again, as I've already written, the unarmed gun disarming techniques which I've seen all *DEPEND* on the person with the gun doing dumb things which we've all known are dumb for, literally, generations now.  So, yes, the statement stands: they're BS.



> And did I tell you that I was in a firefight?


Twice now.  The first time you mentioned it you also said that it doesn't "prove" anything.


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## FriedRice (Jan 15, 2016)

lklawson said:


> No, I didn't.  I wrote that the disarming techniques which I've seen are easily negated by techniques and training which I can document go back to at least WWII; meaning that the techniques being referenced are easy, well known, and widely distributed.  That's not the same thing as "based on just reading whatever."  Check your logic chain.
> 
> And your statement is still wrong.
> 
> ...



You're "99.9%" figure is what's full of BS.

I already told you that disarming a gun wielder is very risky. Obviously, the only time to ever  dare to try disarming them is when they make the mistake of holding the gun within arms reach.


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## lklawson (Jan 16, 2016)

FriedRice said:


> You're "99.9%" figure is what's full of BS.
> 
> I already told you that disarming a gun wielder is very risky. Obviously, the only time to ever  dare to try disarming them is when they make the mistake of holding the gun within arms reach.


Ten inches.


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## drop bear (Jan 16, 2016)

lklawson said:


> No, I didn't.  I wrote that the disarming techniques which I've seen are easily negated by techniques and training which I can document go back to at least WWII; meaning that the techniques being referenced are easy, well known, and widely distributed.  That's not the same thing as "based on just reading whatever."  Check your logic chain.
> 
> And your statement is still wrong.
> 
> ...



Both sides working from appeals to authority?

So say gun experts say no chance and krav experts say reliable method. Going to suggest neither actually looked at the stats. And will lean more towards confirmation bias.

For me by the way disarming success depends on how strong the other guys arms are.


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## lklawson (Jan 17, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Both sides working from appeals to authority?
> 
> So say gun experts say no chance and krav experts say reliable method.


I am a "gun expert."



> Going to suggest neither actually looked at the stats


You've got stats on self defense gun disarms? By all means, share them. I'd love to see the source and methodology.



> And will lean more towards confirmation bias.


Show me the statistical evidence.  Otherwise, ten inches.


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## ballen0351 (Jan 17, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Both sides working from appeals to authority?


i guess you learned a new term since you run all over the forum spouting this nonsense.


> So say gun experts say no chance and krav experts say reliable method. Going to suggest neither actually looked at the stats. And will lean more towards confirmation bias.


how do you know what info the gun experts looked at to make their opinion?


> For me by the way disarming success depends on how strong the other guys arms are.


that's your contribution to the topic


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## Steve (Jan 17, 2016)

FriedRice said:


> Says you. Lloyd Irvin actually disarmed a home invader using some Chinese MA training. That's why he's able to have  a CCW in Maryland, which is like winning the lottery....due to this incident. He talks about it here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I wouldn't believe a word Lloyd Irvin says.   Not the most credible guy around.


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## FriedRice (Jan 17, 2016)

Steve said:


> I wouldn't believe a word Lloyd Irvin says.   Not the most credible guy around.



Despite his major, ethical problems...you still have to admit that his skills are legit...producing many UFC fighters, top contenders and UFC Champions. And this home invasion was true, that's why he was able to get a CCW in Maryland.


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