# Daniel K Pai



## ppko

does anyone know with whom Mr. Pai trained under it seems to be a mystery I talked with his senior student Pai Li Lung but to no avail any and all help would be appreciated I am trying to do a Martial Arts Lineage tree


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## Rabu

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pai_lum

Wikipedia stikes again!

I would suppose your best answers should come from people like Glen C Wilson and the gentleman you have been speaking with.

Best of luck in your search,

Rob


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## ppko

thank you unfortunately there is to much controversy for me to continue my search with him I am wanting to be sure I am accurate


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## Rabu

http://seinenkai.com/

This site may be of assistance to you.  A good source of information regarding Hawaii originated martial arts and artists.  You may be able to find someone associated with them who will be able to offer you 'most reasonable' information to follow up on.

Best regards,

Rob


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## bturn

For Info Concerning the late Grandmaster Pai contact Larry Collins Grandmaster of dragon way martial arts. Grandmaster Collins possess much knowledge of Daniel K. Pai and was a student of his for many years.
Contact him at 785-229-2517. He teaches from his dojo in Ottawa Ks 66067.


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## tshadowchaser

There are many Pai Lum sites on the net.
Do not believe any of the GM's in Pai's lineage as being the soul inheritor of his system he promoted 5 to the rank of GM in hope they would continue his teachings and based on how long the had studied with him and their rank at that time. Unfortunately most agreed to disagree and claimed themselves to be the only Gm and inheritor of the system.
Yes I was around in those times and knew Pai for many years, I first met him in 1970 . 

Read some of the sites and you will find some of the background on his training with his family and in other places
Sheldon


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## tshadowchaser

May I inquire why you have asked of Pai's history?


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## Almost

ppko said:


> does anyone know with whom Mr. Pai trained under it seems to be a mystery I talked with his senior student Pai Li Lung but to no avail any and all help would be appreciated I am trying to do a Martial Arts Lineage tree



The late Dr. Pai trained in a Northern Okinawan monistary for 5 years and then when he came back to the islands he was taught the family style of white dragon from is grandfather Po Fong Pai. That is what i'm told through my system and I believe it. Some people say diffentenly. Either way just take it objectively.


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## The Kai

There is no monastary in Okinwa


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## tshadowchaser

> There is no monastary in Okinwa


 
I have heard this argued before yet at the sanme time I have heard from people who where in Okinwa at about the same time, that Pai is said to have been there, that HE was indeed there and know as the leg breaker .


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## clfsean

Okinawa isn't that big a place... 68 miles long, 20 miles wide.

If there were a temple on the North side of the island, I'm sure the southerners ... hell everybody, would've heard about it. 

Might a little different on the outlying islands, but on the big island, it ain't that big. News I'm sure got around pretty easily.


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## The Kai

The White Lotus Monastary - No one outside of the Pai circles has ever heard of it.  Also,  the monastatry never produced any other Kenpoist or Martial Artists of any stripe.

Did the monastary close after Pai achieved his training there?
And lastly where exactly is/was it??


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## JadeDragon3

This monastary did exist for several years but a person by the name of Ashida Kim came over from Japan and single handedly destroyed it with the use of his flaming arrows.  It was burned to the ground in or around 1975 if my memory serves me right.  Hope this info helps you out.


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## Kane47960

I have been in Martials arts, over 40 years. Ive seen Grandmasters, that block punches with there Chi. I met Pi at one of George Dilman, Karate Circus in Wichita Kansas. This was when they talk Instructor Jon Balee to get his *** kicked in Centry 2 by Roger Carpenter. We spent alot of time with Daniel K Pi. I went back over the years and researched his White Dragon story, Monstary, In Okinawa, and all of that. I have met, anyone that could not be punched, so even tho Grandmaster Dilman, claims he cant be, so, let me tell you a new joke. A horse walks into a bar, bartender looks up, and says to the horse, hey buddy why the long face. They were many super human instructors back then, with magical powers, like David Blain. But as with these instructors, if you pay Counte Dante 5 bucks, you too, can kill a bull with your hands, if you want to interveiw his students, they would probly say the same thing. Lets get real for a change!


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## Stonehorn

Grandmaster Pais lineage is kinda murky just like many aspects of Pai Lum history. Pai was no stranger to controversy and might have intentionally misinformed people about his background. Many of the myths like that of the White Lotus Monastery are upheld by many of his students, thats why talking to Glenn C. Wilson isnt going to help you much. The only things I know for sure is that he was ranked in Judo and Jujitsu. I know this for sure because the certificates were hanging on the walls in the Pai Lum school I studied at. I also know that Pai had a dan certificate signed by Gogen Yamaguchi, though its unclear where he actually learnt Goju-ryu. He learnt Kempo in Hawaï under Richard Takamoto. Many of the self-defense sets in Pai Lum are taken directly from American Kempo. Parker and Pai were acquaintances but, as far as I know, didnt study together. Pai started out teaching goju-ryu karate and added kung fu forms later on. Kung fu was hot in the Bruce Lee era and Pai could apparently master the forms and techniques of other by just watching them. 

Its a debate within Pai Lum if GM Pai ever learned any martial arts from family members. The forms with the pai prefix are said to have been taught to him by his grandfather. There is no proof of this and they might have been invented by Pai himself. Also, these forms dont have equivalents in China. 

Most people think that Pais teacher in Okinawa was Shigeru Nakamura a teacher of Okinawan Kempo, which is in fact an offshoot of Shorin-ryu Karate. I think Nakamura has a student teaching in the US called Bruce Heilman (though he has a different name for the system). There never has been a White Lotus temple in Okinawa and this has been well researched, its a fabrication and still taught in many Pai Lum schools. In an interview in Inside Kung Fu in the 1990s Pai spoke of his training in Okinawa. From what I can gather, he did study there. David Everett, former live-in student of GM Pai, visited Okinawa with Pai and they met up with acquaintances he still knew from his time there. 

I hope this will help you in your research. The goju-ryu connection and the connection to Nakamura would probably the easiest to trace. Marcia Pickands, direct student of GM Pai, was planning to write a book on his life. I hope it gets completed in my lifetime!


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## Perpetual White Belt

Heilman was a student of Odo Seikichi Sensei, not Nakamura Sensei.  Same lineage though.


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## SpiritAloha

ppko said:


> does anyone know with whom Mr. Pai trained under it seems to be a mystery I talked with his senior student Pai Li Lung but to no avail any and all help would be appreciated I am trying to do a Martial Arts Lineage tree



Read here:

A Vintage Piece of Pai - Official Home of Pai Lum Tao


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## geezer

SpiritAloha said:


> Read here:
> 
> A Vintage Piece of Pai - Official Home of Pai Lum Tao



_Seriously? _-the last entry on this thread is 9 years old! 

BTW My first training in asian martial arts was when I went to college back East, around 1975 or '76 with a guy who was a "disciple" of Daniel K. Pai. He described the system as true Chinese Kung-fu. After finishing college and returning home, I began training actual Chinese martial arts with some Chinese instructors. Imagined my disappointment upon learning that no-one in Hong-Kong, Taiwan, or certainly the mainland, had ever heard of Mr. Pai, and that his system can best be described as yet another version of Hawaian Kempo, with a tacked-on, theatrical Chinese "Kung-fu flair" that exploited the Bruce Lee Kung-fu craze of the times. A decade later, "ninjutsu" was the rage. Then BJJ, then MMA. And so it goes. 

BTW, are there still schools that teach Pai Lum/White Dragon?


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## Oily Dragon

geezer said:


> _Seriously? _-the last entry on this thread is 9 years old!
> 
> BTW My first training in asian martial arts was when I went to college back East, around 1975 or '76 with a guy who was a "disciple" of Daniel K. Pai. He described the system as true Chinese Kung-fu. After finishing college and returning home, I began training actual Chinese martial arts with some Chinese instructors. Imagined my disappointment upon learning that no-one in Hong-Kong, Taiwan, or certainly the mainland, had ever heard of Mr. Pai, and that his system can best be described as yet another version of Hawaian Kempo, with a tacked-on, theatrical Chinese "Kung-fu flair" that exploited the Bruce Lee Kung-fu craze of the times. A decade later, "ninjutsu" was the rage. Then BJJ, then MMA. And so it goes.
> 
> BTW, are there still schools that teach Pai Lum/White Dragon?



"Pai Lum" doesn't mean "white dragon".


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## geezer

Oily Dragon said:


> "Pai Lum" doesn't mean "white dragon".



The guy I learned from, David L Smith of New London, CT., called it "Pai Lum Pai" and translated it as "Pai's White Dragon" kung-fu ...or something like that. He did not speak Mandarin and I never wrote down the Chinese characters, so honestly it could mean anything. Depending on the character and tones used, pai or bai _can_ mean white, and lum or long _can_ mean dragon. We did go to a tournament in Pennsylvania and met with some other branches of "Pai Lum" there, so I know the guy was a part of a larger association and had studied with Danial K Pai.

But honestly, after moving back to my home state and switching to a verifiable Chinese lineage of Wing Chun (my teacher was a direct student of Yip Man), I just forgot all the Pai Lum stuff. No judgement either way. I just moved on.


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## geezer

Hey, did a 15 second google search, and my old "shifu" is apparently still around and teaching. And yes, He still uses the term "White Dragon". Check it out: www


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## Flying Crane

geezer said:


> Hey, did a 15 second google search, and my old "shifu" is apparently still around and teaching. And yes, He still uses the term "White Dragon". Check it out: www


Pai Lum and Daniel Pai are names that I have seen come up in other discussions.  I believe there are some folks on the West Coast who have studied it as well, some folks from the Parker Kenpo lineages.  I’ve never known much about him or his methods.  This website isn’t particularly informative, but it gives a basic rundown.


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## Oily Dragon

geezer said:


> The guy I learned from, David L Smith of New London, CT., called it "Pai Lum Pai" and translated it as "Pai's White Dragon" kung-fu ...or something like that. He did not speak Mandarin and I never wrote down the Chinese characters, so honestly it could mean anything. Depending on the character and tones used, pai or bai _can_ mean white, and lum or long _can_ mean dragon. We did go to a tournament in Pennsylvania and met with some other branches of "Pai Lum" there, so I know the guy was a part of a larger association and had studied with Danial K Pai.
> 
> But honestly, after moving back to my home state and switching to a verifiable Chinese lineage of Wing Chun (my teacher was a direct student of Yip Man), I just forgot all the Pai Lum stuff. No judgement either way. I just moved on.



"Lum" has never meant "dragon" in any Chinese dialect.  If anything, this is one of those little Shaolin easter eggs that crop up from time to time when non-Chinese create schools based on Chinese culture, and haven't spent a whole lot of time learning the language.

"Lum" means what it has always meant in Cantonese, "wood" and I actually think the name of the school is clever, if somewhat limping, mangled, across the language barrier between East and West.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Oily Dragon said:


> "Lum" has never meant "dragon" in any Chinese dialect.  If anything, this is one of those little Shaolin easter eggs that crop up from time to time when non-Chinese create schools based on Chinese culture, and haven't spent a whole lot of time learning the language.
> 
> "Lum" means what it has always meant in Cantonese, "wood" and I actually think the name of the school is clever, if somewhat limping, mangled, across the language barrier between East and West.


So what does the full name actually mean?


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## Oily Dragon

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> So what does the full name actually mean?



It's a mashup of Daniel K Pai's family name, the Cantonese name of Shaolin (siu lum), and the fact that Pai (really bai) just happens to be Mandarin for white, which refers to the Shaolin legend of Bak (Pai) Mei. Mix these reagents, you get the "White Dragon Warrior Society", a nice Western sounding name, which happened to arrive right about the time Daniel K. Pai handed control of his society over to new blood.

What does it all mean?  Chinese is a very hard language to learn, let alone use properly, even for kung fu masters.


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## geezer

Oily Dragon said:


> It's a mashup of Daniel K Pai's family name...
> What does it all mean?  Chinese is a very hard language to learn, let alone use properly, even for kung fu masters.



^^^^ Yes. This is _exactly_ my understanding too, at least after I switched over to WC some 40 years ago with a Chinese sifu (out of Hong Kong, but fluent in Mandarin as well as Cantonese). However I will say that I have often seen the term "dragon" translated as "long" and "lung" as in the genuine Hakka system sometimes called "*Southern Dragon"* style (Chinese: 龍形摩橋; pinyin: _lóng xíng mó qiáo_).

...By the way, how would you translate *"Oily Dragon" *into Chinese (either Mandarin or Cantonese) using the "roman" (western) alphabet??? 
_
_


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## Oily Dragon

geezer said:


> ...By the way, how would you translate *"Oily Dragon" *into Chinese (either Mandarin or Cantonese) using the "roman" (western) alphabet???



You long/Yau lung.

The Chinese have a lot of hells.

The Eighteen layers of Chinese Hell - China Underground


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## geezer

Oily Dragon said:


> You long/Yau lung.
> 
> The Chinese have a lot of hells.
> 
> The Eighteen layers of Chinese Hell - China Underground



Fascinating, ... I´m not sure how it relates to our previous discussion, but still very interesting. 

BTW I see that you are a pretty new member here on MartialTalk (joined May 2)  and don´t have much on your profile page. So, here's a belated _welcome_ to the forum! How about introducing yourself? What martial arts have you trained, and what´s your background ...that sort of thing.


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## Oily Dragon

geezer said:


> Fascinating, ... I´m not sure how it relates to our previous discussion, but still very interesting.
> 
> BTW I see that you are a pretty new member here on MartialTalk (joined May 2)  and don´t have much on your profile page. So, here's a belated _welcome_ to the forum! How about introducing yourself? What martial arts have you trained, and what´s your background ...that sort of thing.








One of the many Chinese hells is called the You-lung chih yu, where a dragon slowly dissolves sinners in drool of boiling oil.  I thought it made a funny avatar name.

My martial arts background?  I have nothing but kung fu.


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## Flying Crane

Oily Dragon said:


> You long/Yau lung.
> 
> The Chinese have a lot of hells.
> 
> The Eighteen layers of Chinese Hell - China Underground


That was pointed out in Big Trouble in Little China.


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## geezer

Oily Dragon said:


> My martial arts background?  I have* nothing but kung fu*.



...er, that covers _a lot_ of territory. What kung-fu? Whose gung-fu? There are literally hundreds of systems and sub-systems of _chuan-fa_ or_ kuen-sut _that could be called "kung-fu".  Northern? Southern? Long bridge? Short bridge?  Traditional? Modern? Internal? External? Performance oriented wu-shu?  Chinese boxing... or Chinese wrestling?  Sanda? ...Honestly now, you can do better than that!


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## Oily Dragon

geezer said:


> ...er, that covers _a lot_ of territory. What kung-fu? Whose gung-fu? There are literally hundreds of systems and sub-systems of _chuan-fa_ or_ kuen-sut _that could be called "kung-fu".  Northern? Southern? Long bridge? Short bridge?  Traditional? Modern? Internal? External? Performance oriented wu-shu?  Chinese boxing... or Chinese wrestling?  Sanda? ...Honestly now, you can do better than that!



Yes. Yes, I can.


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## geezer

Oily Dragon said:


> Yes. Yes, I can.



OK... You got me good!


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