# When do you teach/train the LEFT hand?



## arnisandyz (Sep 25, 2003)

I'm not talking about the live or check hand.  I'm talking about putting the stick in the left hand or reversing the weapons for espada y daga stick in left knife in right.  I've heard different comments like 'its better to devote all your training to one side so you have one very good side vs two ok sides" or  "develop both equally, if one hand gets hurts you can continue with the other"...

Modern Arnis has alot of lefty techniques and switches right to left. Sayoc Kali also has left hand templates that move independently of the right. Any others? formally or informal?  Ray from Filipino Combat Systems also switches back and forth so unconciously that he shows us a left hand technique, but he's doing it with his right hand. (You guys know what I mean!)

By the way...I'm a lefty and I had to train my right hand first, but its still not as good as my left.

thanks

Andy


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## Airyu@hotmail.com (Sep 25, 2003)

Hello Andy,

Sayoc Kali does teach the left hand use, almost from the beginning of a student's practice. The left hand is taught differently as you already know, that it is not a mirror image of the right (although it can be), it is independent and has several purposes, such as loading, wiping or removing the off hand, striking while the righ hand is gaining a response etc. 
Guro Ray, is an awesome martial artist, and quickly switches his left and right hand material at amazing speed and fluidity! Do you study with him regularly??

Gumagalang
Guro Steve Lefebvre

www.Bujinkandojo.net


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## stickarts (Sep 25, 2003)

yep, to reach blackbelt, our sudents have to also perform the majority of techniques / drills / stick forms left handed.


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## kroh (Sep 25, 2003)

One of the guys that we train with is a lefty.  His guy makes the rest of us think, especially during pattern drills like sumbrada (sp?) where we put in the pattern breaks and disarms.   However, in the arnis system that i am a part of ( Inosanto lineage and Presas method  ), we train almost immediately with the use of the left hand as both a secondary tool bearing limb (knife, stick, etc) or in the reverse lead. 

Lots of fun...Darn lefty's...

Thanx for the minute
WalT


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Sep 25, 2003)

From the beginning!


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## clockexit (Sep 25, 2003)

From Day One.....


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## Phil Elmore (Sep 25, 2003)

My Wing Chun instructor prefers his right hand and doesn't worry too much about the left hand, _unless_ he's wielding two weapons.  I'm of the opinion that developing ambidexterity is never bad, though it's not _critical_ (unless you're worried about losing function in your favored arm at some point in life, which could happen to anyone).


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## Cruentus (Sep 25, 2003)

We train left from the beginning


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## bart (Sep 25, 2003)

Hey,

I try to teach it from the beginning. Initially I get the students comfortable doing a particular technique in their right hands and then I work into doing it on the left as well. But I differ from most FMA instructors I've come across in emphasizing that. For one thing, it takes longer to give them the basics if they have to do it on both sides. Also, not every teacher is comfortable with their weak side and often they can't perform the techniques on the left or demonstrate principles coming from the left-hand perspective.  It's a shortcoming that I try very hard to overcome myself even though I am left handed. 

I think it's important to be ambidextrous or at least be able to demonstrate and understand theories and techniques from both sides. 

However, when I teach a short self-defense course, I tend to emphasize the strong side, either left or right, depending on the individual. In that sort of situation (a four-six week class) it makes much more sense for them to be able to be solid in the techniques they get on one side, then to have a much more limited set on both sides. Essentially, I can cover more ground effectively and give the students more that they can use if I follow the boxing style strong side forward theory.

But self-defense class is short term and modern martial arts training is long term. After a couple months of educating the weak side, it reaches a comparable level of ability as the strong for most things including learning techniques. In a short term class, there is just not the time to lay the foundation for the weak side, be it right or left. 

Overall the student will be better off if their training is symetrical so I introduce it from the very beginning in my martial arts classes.


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Sep 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil _
> * I'm of the opinion that developing ambidexterity is never bad, though it's not critical (unless you're worried about losing function in your favored arm at some point in life, which could happen to anyone). *



You never know when a limb can be broken or just tied up.


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## Phil Elmore (Sep 25, 2003)

That's why I said, "...which could happen to anyone."


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## sercuerdasfigther (Sep 25, 2003)

my system trains your strong side to be 100%, and your weak side for checking,locking,or weilding a knife in espada y daga. each hand has there own job to do in combat. good ambidexterity is developed thou by training espada y daga.


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## Seigi (Sep 25, 2003)

From the first class, on.

To help the student eventually not have a dominant side & have both hands fluid & being involved with all blocks, strikes, throws, etc...


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## arnisandyz (Sep 25, 2003)

Steve,  I've been with Guro Ray going on four or five  years now.  I met him a while ago at a Modern Arnis Gathering.  He has done well in combining his knowledge of both MA and Sayoc Kali, as well as Pikit Tirsia.  I try to make every gathering in Tampa, so maybe I'll get to meet you sometime.

"You never know when a limb can be broken or just tied up."
A couple years ago I broke a metacarpal in my right hand and couldn't use it for 4-6 months.  In that time my left hand got much better.  Not only was i a natural lefty, but it was being trained daily.

Being able to go to both really expands your skills and creativity.  Even in siniwali or double stick sombrada you start to see oportunities you didn't see before.  For example, if your right hand stick is flowing, it leaves the left free to wander and roam and vice versa.  Moden Arnis has alot of good techniques for the lefty vs a right handed person, so being able to switch to the left off of right in flow allows those techniques to happen and most often catches the other guy off guard.  

Its not an end all beat all thing and it has its drawbacks, but its another tool to add to your arsenal.


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## arnisador (Sep 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Renegade _
> *You never know when a limb can be broken or just tied up. *



Additionally--and I know Mr. Hartman agrees with me--you never know how you'll get the stick. You might take it away from someone and end up with it in your left  without time to switch before you must use it. You might fumble it in your right and pick it up in your left. It might be a weapon of opportunity that you grab off the ground.

I must confess that I no longer train the left hand as much as I did when the Professor was still around to insist that I do so, but I still do it regularly.


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## bart (Sep 25, 2003)

Hey there,

I've trained against people who were severely right handed. And pretty much if you learned how to stay away from that side you were able to keep out of trouble. That's a weakness to training one sided all the way through your lifecycle.  If you train one side to be 100% then only have about 50% of the whole covered.

Like I said in a previous post, that's ok in the short term, for a self defense course, or a situation where THE ENEMY IS COMING TOMORROW SO WE NEED TO LEARN ALL WE CAN TONIGHT. But in the long run (training for more than a few months) you have to train the other side equally, especially if you want to master the art. 

Here are some strong disadvantages to right-side emphasized training that make it prohibitive in my opinion:

1. You only learn to fight people using your right hand.

2. You only train to fight people who fight right handed.

3. You train to fight mostly in cross position. 

4. You train without getting into the mindset of having to come at the opponent from the opposite side. 


That's just the tip of the iceberg in my opinion. There are also health issues to contend with when one side becomes significantly stronger than the other. 

I think there's no reason why after years of training that basic drills done in the weak (left) side should give you trouble. But yet they significantly give a lot of experienced people a lot of trouble.


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## sercuerdasfigther (Sep 25, 2003)

" you only train to fight people who fight right handed."

    i thought we trained to fight angles of attack, not left or right handed attackers.


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## Leo Daher (Sep 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisandyz _
> *
> By the way...I'm a lefty and I had to train my right hand first, but its still not as good as my left.
> 
> *



Same here... However, my right is now better than I ever thought it could be, thanks to Ray's expert instruction. I consider myself both lucky and privileged to be a regular student of his.

BTW, as a defensive shooting instructor, I always made it a point to train with both hands - not just shooting, but also drills such as malfunction clearings and reloads -, the better to be able to adequately teach both right and left-handed students (and also because, as others have already pointed out, you never know when you'll be forced to rely on your "other" hand to save your life).


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Sep 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by sercuerdasfigther _
> *  i thought we trained to fight angles of attack, not left or right handed attackers. *



There is a difference between left-handed attackers and right ones.:asian:

PS. I've never heard of your style before, could you tell us a little about it?


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## Rich Parsons (Sep 25, 2003)

I train and teach Left hand from the beginning.  I will say that I have concentrated on the right though.

Here are a couple of examples of why the laft side training is good.

At a Seminar, a left handed beginner was working right handed as the techniques were taught this way and his partner was right handed. After the first couple of times, they would try to switch to the left, and the left hander person usually got it, and the right handed person had to struggle to work. Yet, this one technique they both were struglling, so  I just put the cane in the left and did the technique. (* I had never done it left in that sequence before *) Everyone was surprised that I could walk them through it easily. It helps the students in learning and working both sides of the brain.

I was light controlled cane sparring with another guy in the club and I just switched to my left hand and tried my techniques out. This had him off balance for a few exchanges, with him all of a sudden exclaiming, " it is in your left hand!" . I smiled and went back to sparring right for a while, until he was not paying close enough attention again.

I also have worked with a person who has a closed head injury. Walking a talking at the same time was a problem for them. TO get this person to twirl both canes at the same time in different directions was a great accomplishment, not for myself, but for him. You see this helped him recover by training both sides of his brain and working both sides of his auto muscle techniques. He is not perfect, and never will be yet, he made great improvements.

So, the left side or off side training offers a lot of advantages.

:asian:


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## Airyu@hotmail.com (Sep 26, 2003)

Hello Everyone,

Great thread! Since most of the posts, appear to be in agreement about training the left side (or right side if you are naturally a lefty), how are you training your non-dominent side?? I'll assume most people are practicing sinawali, of some type? (mirror imaging method) so what else do you do to enhance your non dominent side?

Here are a few suggestions (left only can be substituted with non dominent)

1) Mirror imaging
2) Left only drills (most are again mirror imaging)
3) Left only sparring vs right only sparring
4) Left only vs left only sparring
5) Scenarios left only
6) Independent left drills (non mirror imaging)
7) Left only vs double(left and right) weapons sparring

Gumagalang
Guro Steve Lefebvre

www.Bujinkandojo.net
www.Sayoc .com


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## arnisandyz (Sep 26, 2003)

Steve,  to expand on what you have started....


For drills,  
2 stick sombrada, substitute the left strike for the right in flow (ie: instead of a #5 thrust its a #3 strike with the left hand, partner's wing block will be the same for either.)

Siniwali vs single stick - partner does basic heaven earth pattern, single stick in left or right blocks all of the strikes with sombrada blocks.


Sparring dominant side to dominant side (left or right)  when/if arm gets hit, transfer weapon to other hand and continue.  Of course if you get a good clean hit on the head or body then it doesn't really matter.


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## arnisandyz (Sep 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> You see this helped him recover by training both sides of his brain and working both sides of his auto muscle techniques.
> 
> Very interesting point.
> ...


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## arnisador (Sep 26, 2003)

My biggest use of the left hand is while teaching--facing the class and doing the technique with my left hand while they do it with their right so they can mirror me directly. Mr. Hartman always made very effective use of this in teaching trick and I've tried to pick it up. 

Every now and then in sparring with knives I'll switch hands and try to goof people up. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Like the hidden ball trick, sometimes they just don't mentally register the change until it's too late.


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## sercuerdasfigther (Sep 26, 2003)

renegade,

         sercuerdas is from ser=serrada and cuerdas=decuerdas. it honors angel cabales and his teacher dizon. if you need more info let me know.


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## Rocky (Sep 26, 2003)

From day one! In fact if you are right handed thatn your left hand is actually your most active and sensitive hand and vice versa.



Rocky


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## bart (Sep 26, 2003)

> i thought we trained to fight angles of attack, not left or right handed attackers.




     On the surface, yes we do train against angles of attack. But the practice of defending against angles and fighting along angles is only one theory among many employed in the FMA. A person facing you in mirror image has a different set of options for moving their body (footwork and level changing) and counter attacking you. For example, a mirror position (lefty on righty) fight to dominate the outside is very different than a cross position (righty on righty) fight to dominate the outside and it employs and emphasizes different aspects of angle theory, zoning theory, and following lines of retraction especially in terms of footwork and live hand checking.


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Sep 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by sercuerdasfigther _
> *renegade,
> 
> sercuerdas is from ser=serrada and cuerdas=decuerdas. it honors angel cabales and his teacher dizon. if you need more info let me know. *




That sounds great! My e-mail is wmarnis@wmarnis.com


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## DoxN4cer (Oct 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Renegade _
> *There is a difference between left-handed attackers and right ones.:asian:
> 
> PS. I've never heard of your style before, could you tell us a little about it? *



Well, yes and no.  There are subtle differences, but for the most part defending angle one, two, three and so on is essentially the same until you get in really close. It changes a bit then. but the concepts still remain the same. 

Tim Kashino


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Oct 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DoxN4cer _
> *It changes a bit then.
> 
> Tim Kashino *



Exactly, at close ranges you will notice the difference the most. When your opponent uses their secondary hand you may find yourself on the inside line when you normally be positioned for the outside line.


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## DoxN4cer (Oct 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Renegade _
> *Exactly, at close ranges you will notice the difference the most. When your opponent uses their secondary hand you may find yourself on the inside line when you normally be positioned for the outside line. *



True, but it all comes down to understanding geometry, manily the relationship between arc, angle and straight lines. How you choose to counter will dictate how you may end up defending against the recounter. In conceptual terms, the applications are the same but with subtle differences in your angle of approach. You can still break someone's elbow or cut a blood vessel regarless of whether you are on the inside or the outside.

Tim Kashino


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## Rich Parsons (Oct 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DoxN4cer _
> *True, but it all comes down to understanding geometry, manily the relationship between arc, angle and straight lines. How you choose to counter will dictate how you may end up defending against the recounter. In conceptual terms, the applications are the same but with subtle differences in your angle of approach. You can still break someone's elbow or cut a blood vessel regarless of whether you are on the inside or the outside.
> 
> Tim Kashino *



Tim and Tim,

You guys are saying much the same thing.

And in theory it is the same, and this is how you teach it, to let the student know it can be applied on either side with either hand. Yet, your postiioning and distancing may put you in postiion for a counter that may not be there if it is right on left versus right on right.

So, in teaching singles it is the same. In teaching your options for the recounter it is the same since you will treat it just like the angle of attack, no matter which hand is attacking you. Yet, on the right versus left, there are options and lack of options that are not normal, meaning the stardard techniques taught. If you think about it, you know them all from the single technique only it has not been seen in the mixing bowl. So, yes, it is the same yet different until the student practices it.

:asian:


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## DoxN4cer (Oct 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> *Tim and Tim,
> 
> You guys are saying much the same thing.
> ...



Yep, we are pretty much saying the same thing. I suppose our conceptual approaches may be the only difference. The way I see it, it's really all the same whether you're matched with your opponent or not.  The point I was trying to make is that the same concepts will be applied along slightly different lines to effect the same outcome in the end, regardless of positioning and handedness. 

Tim Kashino


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