# Tae Kwon Do and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu



## Pyrock (Dec 5, 2008)

I was just wondering what the TKD folks think of studying a combination of Tae Kwon Do and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.  I have a 7 year old son who has been studying TKD for 1.5 years and he just received his blue belt.  He has also been studying (Gracie) Brazilian Jiu Jitsu for around 5 months and just recieved his grey belt (advance white belt for children as there is no real grey belt).  He loves both disciplines and especially loves TKD sparring and BJJ rolling.  As part of his TKD tournament, they have a Sports Jiu Jitsu event in which TKD-style stikes are allowed until the clinch at which point no strikes are allowed.  He dominates all the kids in his size/weight class and often the kids much bigger than him so it seems to be paying off.  I'm thinking that the Japanese Jiu Jitsu they teach as part of the TKD curriculum is "watered down".  Any thoughts?


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## SA_BJJ (Dec 5, 2008)

Pyrock said:


> I was just wondering what the TKD folks think of studying a combination of Tae Kwon Do and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. I have a 7 year old son who has been studying TKD for 1.5 years and he just received his blue belt. He has also been studying (Gracie) Brazilian Jiu Jitsu for around 5 months and just recieved his grey belt (advance white belt for children as there is no real grey belt). He loves both disciplines and especially loves TKD sparring and BJJ rolling. As part of his TKD tournament, they have a Sports Jiu Jitsu event in which TKD-style stikes are allowed until the clinch at which point no strikes are allowed. He dominates all the kids in his size/weight class and often the kids much bigger than him so it seems to be paying off. I'm thinking that the Japanese Jiu Jitsu they teach as part of the TKD curriculum is "watered down". Any thoughts?


 Chances are most Jiu Jitsu that children that young learn is watered down to an extent.  Mainly for the lack of control most young kids have with their bodies.  You can be injured very badly rolling with someone who doesnt control themselves.


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## Manny (Dec 5, 2008)

I think that if you son enjoy both MA and all is doing with safety for the kid tehere is no problem. I think that in some time when he grows and addvance on both MA he will hoose to stay with only one.

I have studied a little of judo (childhood), and shotokan and aikido but my main MA is TKD.

Mayve next year will practice alittle aikido again, maybe on saturdays or maybe twice a week just as a complement fo my TKD.

Manny


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## Pyrock (Dec 5, 2008)

SA_BJJ said:


> Chances are most Jiu Jitsu that children that young learn is watered down to an extent. Mainly for the lack of control most young kids have with their bodies. You can be injured very badly rolling with someone who doesnt control themselves.


 
The Gracie BJJ is not very watered down.  Come to think of it, his TKD instructor is also very proficient.  I think it all boils down to rolling time and the Gracie school provides way more rolling time.


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## granfire (Dec 5, 2008)

well, Gracie has the 'Kid Juitsu' whatever toning down it needed for the kids.

ITA has added BJJ to the program as a selective, after adding ground escapes and Hanmudo ( a spawn of Hapkido and something else as far as I know) as well as short sticks to the mix.

Partly a business idea, I am sure, but over all it makes sense to have more than one style to fall back on, no pun intended. One can't depend on being in a stand up situation all the time. As my instructor put it 'it makes you are more complete fighter' 

There has been a discussion about the ranking in BJJ on my own forum, in regards to kids vs adults. Seems that kids do better in the long term if they have smaller intermediate goals along the way, adults can very well do on a once in 2 year advancement.


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## Pyrock (Dec 5, 2008)

granfire said:


> well, Gracie has the 'Kid Juitsu' whatever toning down it needed for the kids.
> 
> ITA has added BJJ to the program as a selective, after adding ground escapes and Hanmudo ( a spawn of Hapkido and something else as far as I know) as well as short sticks to the mix.


 
That sounds very accurate because his TKD school is actually ITA.  I, too, think this is a good idea.  I know my son loves it.  Everything needs to evolve and I think this is in the right direction.  His instructors are surprisingly quite good at Jiu Jitsu.  Back in the day, I studied Kung Fu and ground work would have been nice.


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## SA_BJJ (Dec 5, 2008)

Pyrock said:


> The Gracie BJJ is not very watered down. Come to think of it, his TKD instructor is also very proficient. I think it all boils down to rolling time and the Gracie school provides way more rolling time.


 I never said how watered down it was...my point is the real gauge here is the skill of the student.  I will not go all out on a white or blue belt.  Reason being they get emotional and start to do dumb things and try to hurt you.

Sorry if you took offense to my statement, but just because its "gracie Jits" doesnt mean that its the roughest toughest Jits...it just means its tried and true.  Just be careful there are ALOT of schools out there that say they are affiliated with the Gracies and they really arent.


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## Twin Fist (Dec 5, 2008)

as long as they are taught that the BJJ is for SPORT, not for Self Defense, then it sounds fine, as long as it is safe.


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## Pyrock (Dec 5, 2008)

SA_BJJ said:


> I never said how watered down it was...my point is the real gauge here is the skill of the student. I will not go all out on a white or blue belt. Reason being they get emotional and start to do dumb things and try to hurt you.
> 
> Sorry if you took offense to my statement, but just because its "gracie Jits" doesnt mean that its the roughest toughest Jits...it just means its tried and true. Just be careful there are ALOT of schools out there that say they are affiliated with the Gracies and they really arent.


 
No, I apologize...I understand your point.  I was just adding to it.  I wasn't offended at all.  In fact, I'm not the practioner so I am actually the Jiu Jitsu village idiot ;-) when it comes to practical knowledge.  My early experience with MA was Kung Fu.  I am fortunate that the instructors at Ralph Gracie are very good with children and emphasize safety especially with submissions.  Ralph, himself, comes in at least once per week to visit the kids.


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## Pyrock (Dec 5, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> as long as they are taught that the BJJ is for SPORT, not for Self Defense, then it sounds fine, as long as it is safe.


 
Curious...why not self defense?... because I am the one who tells him that if anyone tries to harm him, he has my permission to do what is necessary to keep from being harmed and leave the grown up stuff to me. (ie. teachers, parents, lawsuits, etc...)


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## arnisador (Dec 5, 2008)

It's a great combo. Everyone needs some ground-grappling.


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## Traditionalist (Dec 5, 2008)

If he likes both then good for him, but like most I think he will eventially have to gravitate towards one. If the juijitsu is anything worth while he'll find that his body will suffer and the rigors of taking two martial arts at the same time will have its toll. Also if the kids are just rolling around and learning escapes I think that is fine but if the teacher starts to teach them chokes, like triangle chokes, and arms bars I would pull my kid. I don't think kids have the control to know when to stop. I like to see kids in Judo anyway. Most kids go to the ground when they fight and Judo can give that knowledge as well as throwing without bringing in the things like choking and arm locks and wrist locks. I think its just safer but you can only work with what is available to you in your area. I would just definitely monitor the juijitsu.


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## Pyrock (Dec 5, 2008)

Traditionalist said:


> If he likes both then good for him, but like most I think he will eventially have to gravitate towards one. If the juijitsu is anything worth while he'll find that his body will suffer and the rigors of taking two martial arts at the same time will have its toll. Also if the kids are just rolling around and learning escapes I think that is fine but if the teacher starts to teach them chokes, like triangle chokes, and arms bars I would pull my kid. I don't think kids have the control to know when to stop. I like to see kids in Judo anyway. Most kids go to the ground when they fight and Judo can give that knowledge as well as throwing without bringing in the things like choking and arm locks and wrist locks. I think its just safer but you can only work with what is available to you in your area. I would just definitely monitor the juijitsu.


 
I've been to every class he's attended since he started almost 6 months ago and from what I've seen, his instructors put safety first.  As soon as they assume a submission position, they are taught to either stop the move or have the person in the submission tap.  On the other hand, when my son submits his opponents, he immediately releases as soon as he hears the ref or when he gets a tap.  Even then, they are taught to apply pressure to a submission hold very carefully.  Again, I've seen this first hand.  I trust the Gracie system and it seems to work.  Many of the more advanced kids are some of the most mellow kids I've seen.  It almost looks like they're playing chess when they are rolling...it's almost very creepy...we're talking 9-11 year olds.


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## Pyrock (Dec 5, 2008)

Traditionalist said:


> If he likes both then good for him, but like most I think he will eventially have to gravitate towards one. If the juijitsu is anything worth while he'll find that his body will suffer and the rigors of taking two martial arts at the same time will have its toll. Also if the kids are just rolling around and learning escapes I think that is fine but if the teacher starts to teach them chokes, like triangle chokes, and arms bars I would pull my kid. I don't think kids have the control to know when to stop. I like to see kids in Judo anyway. Most kids go to the ground when they fight and Judo can give that knowledge as well as throwing without bringing in the things like choking and arm locks and wrist locks. I think its just safer but you can only work with what is available to you in your area. I would just definitely monitor the juijitsu.


 
Also, I dont think it would be "real" BJJ if all they did were escapes and rolling.  I enrolled him in BJJ to learn BJJ...not some limited version.  What if he were to compete in a tournament and all he did were escapes?  He'd get WORKED.  I wouldn't want that, would I?


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## RobertS (Dec 5, 2008)

I think TKD and BJJ are a great combination.  If you are proficient at both striking and grappling you've pretty much got your bases covered.  If your son has a safe but effective place to train and compete, then I hope he continues!


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## Twin Fist (Dec 5, 2008)

because in BJJ you WANT to be on the ground, in fact, if all you know if BJJ, you are helpless untill you are on the ground

in REAL self defense the ground isnt your friend, you dont want to be there, and while you are trying for that armbar, his cousin Bubba is gonna be kicking a hole in your face.

so NO, BJJ is not for self defense.

that "90% of all fights go to the ground" crap is just that, crap.




Pyrock said:


> Curious...why not self defense?... because I am the one who tells him that if anyone tries to harm him, he has my permission to do what is necessary to keep from being harmed and leave the grown up stuff to me. (ie. teachers, parents, lawsuits, etc...)


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## Steve (Dec 5, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> because in BJJ you WANT to be on the ground, in fact, if all you know if BJJ, you are helpless untill you are on the ground
> 
> in REAL self defense the ground isnt your friend, you dont want to be there, and while you are trying for that armbar, his cousin Bubba is gonna be kicking a hole in your face.
> 
> ...


Ugh.  And the thread begins the downward spiral into hating on BJJ.  So far, it's too dangerous for kids but not dangerous enough for self defense.  Everybody has a friend waiting in the bushes to kick you in the head, and it's fine to not train ground fighting because no real street fight ever goes to the ground.  

TKD, on the other hand, as it's taught in strip malls throughout North America is really preparing kids to realistically defend themselves. :BSmeter:


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## myusername (Dec 6, 2008)

I think it is a fantastic combination for sport, fitness and self defence. What a wealth of techniques and combinations your son will have at his disposal by training in those two arts. I hope he carries on enjoying them and doing well.


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## myusername (Dec 6, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> because in BJJ you WANT to be on the ground, in fact, if all you know if BJJ, you are helpless untill you are on the ground
> 
> in REAL self defense the ground isnt your friend, you dont want to be there, and while you are trying for that armbar, his cousin Bubba is gonna be kicking a hole in your face.
> 
> ...



This post sounds a little like art bashing to me. It reads no different than the posts you find on other forums disrespecting TMA's, it's just the other side of the spectrum. You can adapt the techniques in BJJ to self defence just as well as you can adapt the sporting elements of any martial art.


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## terryl965 (Dec 6, 2008)

Learning some type of ground work is a great combonation, being able to learn anyhting can only help one understand what will work best for each person.


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## granfire (Dec 6, 2008)

Traditionalist said:


> If he likes both then good for him, but like most I think he will eventially have to gravitate towards one. If the juijitsu is anything worth while he'll find that his body will suffer and the rigors of taking two martial arts at the same time will have its toll. Also if the kids are just rolling around and learning escapes I think that is fine but if the teacher starts to teach them chokes, like triangle chokes, and arms bars I would pull my kid. I don't think kids have the control to know when to stop. I like to see kids in Judo anyway. Most kids go to the ground when they fight and Judo can give that knowledge as well as throwing without bringing in the things like choking and arm locks and wrist locks. I think its just safer but you can only work with what is available to you in your area. I would just definitely monitor the juijitsu.




It is up to the instructor to convey the limit.

That is 2fold: The person in submission has to tap out, the other person has to stop NOW! And while kids get a little carried away in the non TKD programs, when safety is at stake, the fun stops yesterday. And yes, I got after a youngster for performing falls in a wrong and unsafe manner...making little kids cry is just all in a day's work for me  (that his daddy told him not to listen to them there white women is another story in itself and subject for another day)


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## MJS (Dec 6, 2008)

Pyrock said:


> I was just wondering what the TKD folks think of studying a combination of Tae Kwon Do and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. I have a 7 year old son who has been studying TKD for 1.5 years and he just received his blue belt. He has also been studying (Gracie) Brazilian Jiu Jitsu for around 5 months and just recieved his grey belt (advance white belt for children as there is no real grey belt). He loves both disciplines and especially loves TKD sparring and BJJ rolling. As part of his TKD tournament, they have a Sports Jiu Jitsu event in which TKD-style stikes are allowed until the clinch at which point no strikes are allowed. He dominates all the kids in his size/weight class and often the kids much bigger than him so it seems to be paying off. I'm thinking that the Japanese Jiu Jitsu they teach as part of the TKD curriculum is "watered down". Any thoughts?


 
I don't do TKD, but I do train BJJ when time allows, so I thought I'd toss in my 2 pennies.   IMO, having an understanding of the ground is very important and that goes for any art.  Sure, we hear all the time that we'll never be taken down, the techniques in the standup arts will be good enough to avoid a takedown, a takedown can be avoided by a proper rooted stance, etc., etc.  The list goes on and on.  While thats all fine, personally, I don't like to assume anything.  Anything can happen and we just may find ourselves on the ground, so I feel its important to know some basics, as well as how to properly get back to a standing position.

I do feel though, that its important to have a solid base art first, before crosstraining.  I'm not familiar with the TKD ranking structure, so I don't know where blue belt stands.  People don't have to do this, but IMO, I think its good to have a solid foundation first, then take on something else.

In this case, it seems your child is already training BJJ, seems like he's enjoying it, and it doing well.  Things may be slightly 'watered down' due to the age of the person learning, but with time, I'm sure things will change.

Sorry for the long rant.   As long as he's enjoying it, in the end, it'll just end up making him a more well rounded martial artist.


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## MJS (Dec 6, 2008)

Pyrock said:


> Curious...why not self defense?... because I am the one who tells him that if anyone tries to harm him, he has my permission to do what is necessary to keep from being harmed and leave the grown up stuff to me. (ie. teachers, parents, lawsuits, etc...)


 
I see where Twin Fist and SteveBjj are both coming from, and hopefully this thread will not spiral to a "BJJ sucks" thread.  There are a number of things from BJJ that can be transitioned to a standing position, of course, with some minor modifications, due to the fact that we're not on the ground, but standing. 

The usual thought is that a BJJist is where they want to take the fight, and if we look at the early UFCs with Royce, that is exactly where he went..to the ground.  Now, adding in some solid standup work to BJJ, and yes, you'll have alot to handle.  Royce, IMO, doesn't have solid standup, thus, he looks to clinch and take the fight to his comfort zone.

Is going to the ground a bad thing?  Yes and no and I would say that alot depends on the situation.  That discussion has been beat like a dead horse, so I really don't want to rehash that one...although I'm sure it'll come up anyways.  

So, to answer your original question....like any art, you need to seperate the sport from the street aspect.  Intentionally taking someone down, when there just may be something you can do to finish standing, isn't wise IMO, but again, thats just me.  However, like I said earlier, if you could clinch and apply a choke or lock while standing, vs. busting someone up...well, in the end, you may save yourself some headaches.


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## Twin Fist (Dec 6, 2008)

hey steve, it isnt my fault that  BJJ is pretty much worthless for self defense. I love grappling, for SPORT but that is all it is, a SPORT. On the street? the last thing i will be doing is rolling around on concrete.....BJJ alone will get your *** killed on the street.

I am not art bashing, I love the sport art the gracies created. But that is what it is, a SPORT art. Sorry, but it is true

I worked bars for 10 years, went to the ground a couple times, know what I did? i got back up. I had more multiple opponents than ground fights by an order of magnitude. And BJJ is pretty much worthless versus multiple opponents

And look at the track record, the gracies themselves, the people that created it couldnt handle a decent striker.

BTW steve, it doesnt really work to cry  "you are hating on BJJ" then turn right around start hating on TKD


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## Twin Fist (Dec 6, 2008)

MJS
I love you man

sorry if i came across as a little blunt, but i am a simple man, so i speak simply

yes, everyone needs a little bit of everything if they want to be well rounded


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## Nolerama (Dec 6, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> hey steve, it isnt my fault that  BJJ is pretty much worthless for self defense. I love grappling, for SPORT but that is all it is, a SPORT. On the street? the last thing i will be doing is rolling around on concrete.....BJJ alone will get your *** killed on the street.
> 
> I am not art bashing, I love the sport art the gracies created. But that is what it is, a SPORT art. Sorry, but it is true



I don't agree with the quoted statement. But to elaborate is to open a whole new can of worms...

However, I do think that cross training in a striking and grappling art makes complete sense. Kudos to the OP and his son for exploring that sort of thing. Regardless, the kid will get a workout, play less video games, and probably shower more... on top of learning a couple of MAs.


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## Twin Fist (Dec 6, 2008)

Nolerama said:


> However, I do think that cross training in a striking and grappling art makes complete sense. Kudos to the OP and his son for exploring that sort of thing. Regardless, the kid will get a workout, play less video games, and probably shower more... on top of learning a couple of MAs.



QFT

cant agree more


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## SA_BJJ (Dec 6, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> because in BJJ you WANT to be on the ground, in fact, if all you know if BJJ, you are helpless untill you are on the ground
> 
> in REAL self defense the ground isnt your friend, you dont want to be there, and while you are trying for that armbar, his cousin Bubba is gonna be kicking a hole in your face.
> 
> ...



Wow...you are truly misinformed.  There is sooooo much more to BJJ that walking up to someone and pulling guard.  BJJ is s hell of alot more practical than say kung fu.  Sorry for those that take kung fu, just my opinion.


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## Twin Fist (Dec 6, 2008)

dont TELL me i am wrong, tell me HOW i am wrong.

it makes a better point


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## myusername (Dec 7, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> dont TELL me i am wrong, tell me HOW i am wrong.
> 
> it makes a better point



_hey Twin Fist, it isn't my fault that TKD is pretty much worthless for self defense. I love jumping spinning high kicks, for SPORT but that is all it is, a SPORT. On the street? the last thing i will be doing is throwing spinning head kicks and giving my back to the attacker..... TKD alone will get your *** killed on the street.

I am not art bashing, I love the sport art the Korean's created. But that is what it is, a SPORT art. Sorry, but it is true._ 

Do you see how this is wrong?


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## Tez3 (Dec 7, 2008)

Arguing over whether one should go to the ground or not in a street fight has been done to death on this and other forums and to carry the old argument on here takes the attention away from the OP which is about a child learning two styles.

We teach the children in our classes both stand up and ground work, they enjoy both. They learn from both and makes them as well rounded martial artists as we can manage in the time they are with us.

As well teaching them both we try to introduce them to as many different styles as we can, so that when they move on from us and go to another club (it's likely the style won't be the same as ours) they feel more comfortable. For example we do 'left fighting stance' and put left foot forward, we'll explain that in some styles they put right foot back, that sort of thing. We don't teach them different styles just try to give them a flavour of other styles other than the one they are doing up now.


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## matt.m (Dec 7, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> Arguing over whether one should go to the ground or not in a street fight has been done to death on this and other forums and to carry the old argument on here takes the attention away from the OP which is about a child learning two styles.
> 
> We teach the children in our classes both stand up and ground work, they enjoy both. They learn from both and makes them as well rounded martial artists as we can manage in the time they are with us.
> 
> As well teaching them both we try to introduce them to as many different styles as we can, so that when they move on from us and go to another club (it's likely the style won't be the same as ours) they feel more comfortable. For example we do 'left fighting stance' and put left foot forward, we'll explain that in some styles they put right foot back, that sort of thing. We don't teach them different styles just try to give them a flavour of other styles other than the one they are doing up now.


 
In my Judo class I often teach 'combination' techniques.  For example: Major outer reaping throw to scarf or shoulder hold.  That sort of thing.

If there is one thing I can say good about Gracie's BJJ is that it 'reminded' everyone that they need to know how to fight/defend themselves on the ground.


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## Twin Fist (Dec 7, 2008)

myusername said:


> _hey Twin Fist, it isn't my fault that TKD is pretty much worthless for self defense. I love jumping spinning high kicks, for SPORT but that is all it is, a SPORT. On the street? the last thing i will be doing is throwing spinning head kicks and giving my back to the attacker..... TKD alone will get your *** killed on the street.
> 
> I am not art bashing, I love the sport art the Korean's created. But that is what it is, a SPORT art. Sorry, but it is true._
> 
> Do you see how this is wrong?




yeah, cuz that is FACTUALLY wrong. Unless you are talking about Olympic style wtf crap.

I wasnt wrong about BJJ. You might not LIKE it, but I wasnt wrong by any means. Sure, high kicks are not a good idea, and might very well get you hurt, but there is MORE to TKD than high kicks. Ask the ROK marines.

There is NOTHING to bjj that aint on the ground. On the STREET, you dont want to be on the ground.

I MAY have been overly blunt, but i am not factaully wrong.

And tez has a point, the OP was about kids being exposed to different styles, and thats a GOOD thing, as long as they are told the TRUTH about what is GOOD self defense and what isnt.


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## Tez3 (Dec 7, 2008)

The point that one doesn't _want_ to be on the ground in a street fight is valid but the truth is sometimes what you want isn't what you get!
In BJJ there are takedowns and of course the escapes from takedowns which will hopefully stop you going to ground! We also do chokes, arm bars and other holds from standing. 
Other BJJ techniques include the defences against grabs, chokes, headlocks, bearhugs, _kicks_, shoulder grabs etc etc all done from standing. If you look at Renzo and Royler Gracies book on BJJ you will see in section 61 how to stand up properly in a street fight. In chapter 10 of Renzo Gracies and John Danaher's book Mastering Jujitsu you will find an excellent section on street self defence, where it's all standing. 

We show the kids we teach as much about other styles and martial arts because our children will only be with us a maximum of three years sometimes its less depending on their age when they join us. We have a couple of civilian children who hopefully will stay with us until adults but you never know. Our children will be moving when their parents are posted or are demobbed and as we want them to stay in martial arts we teach them about other arts they can go into.


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## myusername (Dec 7, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> yeah, cuz that is FACTUALLY wrong. Unless you are talking about Olympic style wtf crap.
> 
> I wasnt wrong about BJJ. You might not LIKE it, but I wasnt wrong by any means. Sure, high kicks are not a good idea, and might very well get you hurt, but there is MORE to TKD than high kicks. Ask the ROK marines.
> 
> ...



Yes I agree it was factually wrong, TKD is an awesome martial art and is certainly not worthless for self defence. I also agree that there is so much more to TKD than high kicks. I don't need to ask the ROK marines as I have studied a bit of TKD myself. 

The post you are reacting to is exactly what you had written about BJJ. It's not very nice is it? It is also blinkered, prejudiced and wrong. If I had a chip on my shoulder about TKD and wanted to press home the point I could ignore all the finer points of that art and all the good examples of TKD training and techniques and focus entirely on the McDojangs teaching limited skills. That would also be wrong. It is a shame that this is exactly what you are doing with BJJ. Yes there is more to TKD than high kicks just as much as there is more to BJJ than overly complex triangle chokes.

If your point is just that BJJ is a sport then fair enough, but your point was that BJJ is completely worthless in self defence. It is assuming that as BJJ is trained as a sport it can not be adapted to self defence situations. It ignores that a large amount of the techniques in BJJ can actually be applied standing up. It assumes that in a self defence situation the BJJ person is not going to bite, elbow, knee, headbutt or eye gouge and get up and run as soon as possible. 

Just because BJJ is a sport does not mean it can not be adapted for self defence just like Judo and Boxing or any sporting martial art. No body would be blinkered enough to claim that boxing is useless for self-defence because the practitioner would be too busy putting on his gloves whilst the attacker hit him!

It's odd really as we probably have very similar views on self defence and the dangers of being tied up on the ground but I just don't buy into the BJJ is useless for self defence theme.

Getting back to the point of the thread, the fact that TKD and BJJ both produce such extreme reactions between practitioners indicates that it is probably a fantastic combination of martial arts for a child to study as they will be covering both bases and will be well rounded no matter what angle you take on it.


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## Twin Fist (Dec 7, 2008)

I aint getting into this any further. Keep doing your thing, I will keep doing my self defense system. 


"If you look at Renzo and Royler Gracies book on BJJ you will see in section 61 how to stand up properly in a street fight. In chapter 10 of Renzo Gracies and John Danaher's book Mastering Jujitsu you will find an excellent section on street self defence, where it's all standing."

Sounds interesting tez, i will look for that. I have said before that BJJ, MODIFIED can be usefull. Un-modified? nope, i aint gonna lie to my students and tell them they can depend on grappling. That might just get them killed.


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## Tez3 (Dec 7, 2008)

On page 6 of Renzo and Roylers book it talks about BJJ for self defence. I quote
" People tend to underestimate the versatility of Brazlilian Juijitsu because when they see it in action in mixed martial arts events, ground fighting plays the major role. However Brazilian juijitsu has a great range of techniques in a standing clinch situation that allows a student to defeat an aggressor without going to ground."
In section 5 of the same book the very first techniques shown is a defence against a two handed choke, standing. Section 6, defence against a single wrist grab plam up, then in 7 a single handed wrist grab plam down, it's section 14 before you get to a floor technique. That's in the blue belt syllabus. 

I don't think BJJ techniques need to be modified at all, I think that a closer look at *all *the BJJ techniques needs to be looked at before stating that everything is on the ground.


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## Twin Fist (Dec 7, 2008)

never had my wrists grabbed


The problem as i see it, is that in a grappling system, i have to tie up both my hands, and if both my hands are hitting them, i am not blocking or hitting them.

plus the multiple bad guy stuff.

but whatever


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## Tez3 (Dec 7, 2008)

I've had my wrists grabbed, it's a thing guys do to women (and children) more than to other men.

As to the multiple attacker thing I quote again from Renzo and Royler, ( I enjoy this book as Royler is fit and my favourite Gracie lol)

" Grappling skills wil not allow you to destroy several attackers at once. Brazilian juijitsu makes no claim to teach a method of overwhelming mass attacks. Should you be heavily outnumbered, BJJ will not save you. _It is the contention of the authors that no other style of empty hand fighting will save you either.(_their italics) the martial arts world is full of overinflated claims...."


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## Steve (Dec 7, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> Arguing over whether one should go to the ground or not in a street fight has been done to death on this and other forums and to carry the old argument on here takes the attention away from the OP which is about a child learning two styles.


Exactly.  It's the usual suspects twisting every thread into the same tired rhetoric and agendas that gets old fast.





> We teach the children in our classes both stand up and ground work, they enjoy both. They learn from both and makes them as well rounded martial artists as we can manage in the time they are with us.


Sounds pretty typical.  My daughter's "BJJ" class is taught primarily by a blue belt in BJJ who is a black belt in karate.  He mixes in both.  The primary difference in this class over other classes I've seen is the emphasis on pressure testing techniques and sparring. 

Regarding the original posts, I think it's great to pursue both.  As a guy with three kids, my first thought is where you get the time to get your kids to both!   I have enough trouble getting my daughter to BJJ and my son to drum lessons.  Fortunately, our baby has a few years before she's involved in anything... and by then the older kids will be able to drive her!


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## Tez3 (Dec 7, 2008)

I envy the children learning Judo and BJJ, it comes more naturally to them when they are young, especially the breakfalls! 
Doing two different styles that I think compliment each other is ideal, if it were two styles that were very similiar I think it would cause confusion. I wouldn't recommend doing TKD and a karate style for example though both are great they are too similiar for children or beginners to do both well. A stand up style and a ground style are an ideal match.


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## Twin Fist (Dec 7, 2008)

we were discussing this very thing in class recently, that women get grabbed by the wrist , but by and large, men dont.

yet every system out there teached defense versus wrist grabs..lol





Tez3 said:


> I've had my wrists grabbed, it's a thing guys do to women (and children) more than to other men.
> 
> As to the multiple attacker thing I quote again from Renzo and Royler, ( I enjoy this book as Royler is fit and my favourite Gracie lol)
> 
> " Grappling skills wil not allow you to destroy several attackers at once. Brazilian juijitsu makes no claim to teach a method of overwhelming mass attacks. Should you be heavily outnumbered, BJJ will not save you. _It is the contention of the authors that no other style of empty hand fighting will save you either.(_their italics) the martial arts world is full of overinflated claims...."


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## Tez3 (Dec 7, 2008)

My shift partner was grabbed by the wrist by a very large Fijian when he asked him for his ID, the Fijian refused, grabbed him by the wrist, threw him to the floor where they grappled until the dog handler came to rescue my partner.
While women are mostly the ones grabbed like this, it would be silly not to learn them on the basis that being a man means you won't be grabbed. martial arts for defence is about learning as much as you can and preparing yourself yourself for anything.


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## Twin Fist (Dec 7, 2008)

thats why i said "by and large", not "at all"

:ultracool


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## Tez3 (Dec 7, 2008)

Well there's plenty of other very useful defences in BJJ if _you care_ to look for them. 
Assuming BJJ is all about groundwork and nothing else is a shame as you close your mind to the possibilities within that style. One should look closely into a style, Judo isn't just throwing, TKD isn't just high kicks, karate isn't just 'karate chops' and MT all about knees strikes, Sumo isn't just fat men pushing each other. There's so much more behind all of these.


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## Twin Fist (Dec 7, 2008)

well said


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## phlaw (Dec 7, 2008)

We have been incorporating grappling/jjitsu into our TKD school for many years (I think we started around 95' or 96').  My instructors yearly open tournament has grappling divisions and even a Full Contact Bogu division.


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## terryl965 (Dec 7, 2008)

phlaw said:


> We have been incorporating grappling/jjitsu into our TKD school for many years (I think we started around 95' or 96'). My instructors yearly open tournament has grappling divisions and even a Full Contact Bogu division.


 
So how well is it taken


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## SA_BJJ (Dec 7, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> yeah, cuz that is FACTUALLY wrong. Unless you are talking about Olympic style wtf crap.
> 
> I wasnt wrong about BJJ. You might not LIKE it, but I wasnt wrong by any means. Sure, high kicks are not a good idea, and might very well get you hurt, but there is MORE to TKD than high kicks. Ask the ROK marines.
> 
> ...



And theres more to BJJ than just laying on your back...


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## BrandonLucas (Dec 8, 2008)

I think it's great that cross-training is happening this early!!  I wish there were grappling schools close to where I live, because I would love to get involved in a grappling art.

To briefly touch on the stuff that was being said earlier...sport BJJ is different than sport TKD...it's apples and oranges.  I wouldn't dare take something from sport TKD and attempt to use it in a realistic situation...whereas there are opportunities to use techniques taught in sport BJJ in SD situations.  Fights can and do go to the ground...and there are aspects of BJJ that teach you how to get back to your feet from being on the ground.

Sure, Royce didn't have good standup....but I didn't see him lose in UFC 1 or 2.  And the only rules there were no eye gouging, no biting, no fish hooking, and no groin shots.  That's about as close to real as you can get, and last time I checked, Royce won against other stand up styles...because the fighters didn't know what to expect, sure, but what he fought with isn't too far off the mark from what's being taught today.

Don't get me wrong...I don't like the sport side of martial arts at all...but if you really want to start comparing arts, and be fair about it...then sport TKD is not the greatest thing to hold up in comparison.  

And there is such a thing as BJJ for SD purposes, just the same as TKD is used for SD.  Don't knock it until you've actually tried to spar someone with the experience in both.  It's not easy.


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## Twin Fist (Dec 8, 2008)

BrandonLucas said:


> Sure, Royce didn't have good standup....but I didn't see him lose in UFC 1 or 2.  And the only rules there were no eye gouging, no biting, no fish hooking, and no groin shots.  That's about as close to real as you can get, and last time I checked, Royce won against other stand up styles...because the fighters didn't know what to expect, sure, but what he fought with isn't too far off the mark from what's being taught today.



not quite

he won because his family stacked the deck in his favor from the word go

they designed the ring to give him the advantage, No one had ever held a match in a cage like that, but the gracies had one in thier studio

the mat in the cage was so soft it was almost impossible to throw a solid kick.

so many people complained about the mat they had to re-design it for UFC 3 or no one was gonna fight on it.

Hell, in UFC 2 they put him in against a nearly 60 year old guy.........

kimo and sakaruba showed just how fragile the gracies house of cards was


but all of that is off topic

I do believe that my students need to know some ground work.

enough to get back up on thier feet.


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## Tez3 (Dec 8, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> not quite
> 
> he won because his family stacked the deck in his favor from the word go
> 
> ...


 

I'd be a bit careful about slighting 60 year old fighters, I know an American fighter who's now over 60 but can beat people younger. Age is irrelevant if you are fit and technically good!In UFC2 which fighter are you talking about?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UFC_2


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## BrandonLucas (Dec 8, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> not quite
> 
> he won because his family stacked the deck in his favor from the word go
> 
> ...


 
That was not the point of what I was trying to say about the fights...even if things were stacked against them...if they were good at what they did, they would have been able to deal with Gracie on any kind of surface...that's just an excuse.  

I do agree with what you're saying about teaching student how to get back to their feet.  I just hope that you're not narrowing your thinking to the fact that fights can and do go to the ground, and knowing what to do when you get there is a valuable assett.  BJJ is not all about what you see on the UFC.  I don't take BJJ, and I can realize and understand that.

I've scrapped with a few guys before (not serious fighting, just fighting without trying to kill your opponent...all in fun) that were profecient in grappling...and I can tell you from first hand experience, even knowing enough to get back to your feet isn't always enough to win a fight against and experienced grappler.  Just being put on the ground and getting back up takes alot out of you...and really, the list is too long to write out...too many variables.

It doesn't always come down to "Well, if I can keep the fight standing, I'll be ok,"....and I do believe this was discussed in the General Arts forum...fights don't always go the way you planned, and do often go to the ground.  

Like I was saying before, BJJ isn't all about what you see in the UFC these days...there's more to it than pulling guard...and it's only common sense that you don't stay on the ground with multiple opponents...the subs and techniques that are taught in BJJ don't always have to be complex and require you to work your opponent just right like you see on the UFC.

Just don't sell it short.  Heck, maybe you should even try it...it could change your perception.  What would you have to lose?


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## Pyrock (Dec 8, 2008)

Wow, this thread got interesting.  I thought I would post some links to my sons tournament this past weekend so we can get this thread back on track.  

This first video is of my son doing his stand-up sparring.  Ironically, it's against a black belt kid who is a year or two older and slightly larger.  Obviously the black belt is more experienced but my son will won on points.  If you pay close attention, you might catch my son doing a superman punch and to my knowledge, no one has taught him this.





 
This is the Sports Jiu Jitsu match...again, against a black belt kid who is a year older and a bit larger.  My son was a bit tired since this was his 5th event.


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## Twin Fist (Dec 8, 2008)

Ron Van Clief
that must have been in UFC 3 then

too many years ago...lol



Tez3 said:


> I'd be a bit careful about slighting 60 year old fighters, I know an American fighter who's now over 60 but can beat people younger. Age is irrelevant if you are fit and technically good!In UFC2 which fighter are you talking about?
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UFC_2


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## Twin Fist (Dec 8, 2008)

9 year old black belt?

rubbish


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## BrandonLucas (Dec 8, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> 9 year old black belt?
> 
> rubbish


 
Is this really constructive for the OP?  Why not instead check out the videos and comment on them?


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## Tez3 (Dec 8, 2008)

Nice videos! Grappling in head guards though? I take it they think thats a safety precaution? I think the opposite, when grappling they can get caught and choke someone. Our kids don't wear them for grappling, not safe. Ear guards that wrestlers wear are fine, they stop cauliflower ears.

TF, you must have looked UFC2/3 up you can't be old enough to remember them!!


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## Twin Fist (Dec 8, 2008)

i did

that so called black belt was rubbish

ANY 9 year old black belt for that matter


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## Twin Fist (Dec 8, 2008)

i am 41 tez, i watched the first 4 UFC's on cable. I am an old, old man...........the grappling video was fun, but i agree, the headgear seemed wrong


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## Twin Fist (Dec 8, 2008)

BrandonLucas said:


> they would have been able to deal with Gracie on any kind of surface...that's just an excuse.




nope

not only was the mat overly friendly to the gracies, it was so soft that stand up guys actually had a hard time keeping thier balance....

the world isnt made up of marshmellow soft surfaces.

like i always say, see if any of those guys want to roll around on concrete...


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## BrandonLucas (Dec 8, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> i did
> 
> that so called black belt was rubbish
> 
> ANY 9 year old black belt for that matter


 
I think that there's some miscommunication somewhere.

I thought we were discussing adding a BJJ cirriculum to a TKD cirriculum to help round out martial artists...and the OP has included videos (that I'm unable to watch from work, unfortunately) of their child competing in a tournement in which both arts are competing.

The whole 9 year old blackbelt thing has been done to death, and can still be discussed on another thread in this very forum.  

I don't think the videos were linked to have us discuss the level of competitors at the tournement, rather, it sounds like a parent who is proud of what their child achieved.

I don't think I would like it very much if I posted a video of my child competing in a tournement, and the only response that I got was "The child she is competing against is crap."

I think the OP is looking for more positive construction, actually...and hopefully, we can all be civil enough to comply.


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## Tez3 (Dec 8, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> nope
> 
> not only was the mat overly friendly to the gracies, it was so soft that stand up guys actually had a hard time keeping thier balance....
> 
> ...


 
A new sport, trampoline martial arts sparring!!! Don't laugh it will come!

Actually rolling on a very soft surface isn't much good either, you can't shrimp properly for one thing! it would be like grappling on a bed and NO, don't go there!!


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## Twin Fist (Dec 8, 2008)

his kid did great

the BB kid he was fighting sucked

the grappling was fun to watch


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## Twin Fist (Dec 8, 2008)

i would pay to see trampoline fights!!


as for grappling in bed?

no comment



Tez3 said:


> A new sport, trampoline martial arts sparring!!! Don't laugh it will come!
> 
> Actually rolling on a very soft surface isn't much good either, you can't shrimp properly for one thing! it would be like grappling on a bed and NO, don't go there!!


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## Pyrock (Dec 8, 2008)

I agree with all of you on the headgear but then striking and head kicks are allowed.  It is only when they clinch are stikes to the head not allowed.  It's more of a safety thing.  My son hates it because they make chokes that much harder.

It's a pretty safe event.  As some might have noticed, the black belt didn't actually tap.  The ref called it a tap because he  saw that the kid may not have tapped when he should have. His face probably indicated that it was over.  A passed out 8 year old would not go well with the parents and I can tell you that my son would not have let go unless the other kid tapped or the ref told him to stop.

As far as a 9 year old black belt....I have my own opinion on that which I will keep to myself.  Let's just say that my son will NOT wear a black belt until I feel he is worthy.


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## Tez3 (Dec 8, 2008)

Pyrock said:


> I agree with all of you on the headgear but then striking and head kicks are allowed. It is only when they clinch are stikes to the head not allowed. It's more of a safety thing. My son hates it because they make chokes that much harder.
> 
> It's a pretty safe event. As some might have noticed, the black belt didn't actually tap. The ref called it a tap because he saw that the kid may not have tapped when he should have. His face probably indicated that it was over. A passed out 8 year old would not go well with the parents and I can tell you that my son would not have let go unless the other kid tapped or the ref told him to stop.
> 
> As far as a 9 year old black belt....I have my own opinion on that which I will keep to myself. Let's just say that my son will NOT wear a black belt until I feel he is worthy.


 

I have to say that if kicks and strikes are allowed in the 'grappling' then it's actually MMA not BJJ! Children doing chokes, oh dear no! what other techniques are they allowed to do?


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## Twin Fist (Dec 8, 2008)

tez3 said:


> i have to say that if kicks and strikes are allowed in the 'grappling' then it's actually mma not bjj! Children doing chokes, oh dear no! What other techniques are they allowed to do?




qft


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## Pyrock (Dec 8, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> I have to say that if kicks and strikes are allowed in the 'grappling' then it's actually MMA not BJJ! Children doing chokes, oh dear no! what other techniques are they allowed to do?


 
As a parent, I think it's pretty safe and it's a very controlled invironment.  As you can see in the video, the ref is very close to the action and is monitoring it very closely.  In fact, the ref tapped out the kid in blue to be safe.  You can tell a lot of things by looking at someone's face.  The irony of the whole thing is that the other kids father was upset because the ref stopped it when his kid didn't even tap out.

To answer your question...they are allowed to perform all techniques that are employed in traditional Japanese Jiu Jitsu which includes arm locks, joint locks, chokes, and throws BUT they DO need to be upper belts in Tae Kwon Do or have permission from an instructor.  My son has the latter.  Should we teach them a "watered down" version so they become good at the watered down Jiu Jitsu?

I am confident that they permitted my son to participate in the classes (and tourney) because he was ready for it from a maturity standpoint.  Incidentally, he learns the same moves from his Gracie school as well.  Why shouldn't they teach the kids the real art?


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## Tez3 (Dec 9, 2008)

Pyrock said:


> As a parent, I think it's pretty safe and it's a very controlled invironment. As you can see in the video, the ref is very close to the action and is monitoring it very closely. In fact, the ref tapped out the kid in blue to be safe. You can tell a lot of things by looking at someone's face. The irony of the whole thing is that the other kids father was upset because the ref stopped it when his kid didn't even tap out.
> 
> To answer your question...they are allowed to perform all techniques that are employed in traditional Japanese Jiu Jitsu which includes arm locks, joint locks, chokes, and throws BUT they DO need to be upper belts in Tae Kwon Do or have permission from an instructor. My son has the latter. Should we teach them a "watered down" version so they become good at the watered down Jiu Jitsu?
> 
> I am confident that they permitted my son to participate in the classes (and tourney) because he was ready for it from a maturity standpoint. Incidentally, he learns the same moves from his Gracie school as well. Why shouldn't they teach the kids the real art?


 
It's fine if you are happy with it but calling it BJJ and TKD is misleading, it's MMA. 
I'm not sure what you mean by watered down, teaching age appropriate techniques is common across all martial arts. I think what should be taught at what age is probably another thread ( it's probably been done) and we've already touched upon the point of nine year old black belts, now nine year old blackbelts doing full on MMA moves worries me a lot I'm afraid but I'm not there so I can only talk about what we teach our children. 

We teach them techniques that they can do and understand, there's no watering down, just waiting until it's appropriate for them to learn moves. I'm a bit confused now though because you said they were doing BJJ now it's Japanese juijitsu?

I do understand about refereeing, I ref adult MMA matches. I don't know what the TMA clubs here do but I do know there isn't an MMA club here that has children doing MMA competitions, they can spar standing or they can grappling not both at such a young age. Teaching MMA to children is fine but give them the techniques they can do and bring in more as they get older.

I'm sure your son is a good martial artist for his age but I have to say I believe it's too much too soon for the average child of seven. At that age in our club they've just moved up from Little Dragons to the childrens class.


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## SA_BJJ (Dec 9, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> nope
> 
> not only was the mat overly friendly to the gracies, it was so soft that stand up guys actually had a hard time keeping thier balance....
> 
> ...


 Well actually alot of the time they train on the beach.  Not in the nice soft sand...the hard packed wet sand.  May as well be concrete.

We get the point you think there is no practical application to BJJ...thats fine.  You just havent had to deal with an experienced grappler.  God help you if you do.  If you had, you WOULD NOT be able to get back to your feet where you have all of your experience.  The fact of the matter is youre going to fight where you feel most confortable.  I feel comfortable wrapping my legs around someone and choking them out.  You feel comfortable on your feet.  To each his own...


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## Twin Fist (Dec 9, 2008)

SA_BJJ said:


> the hard packed wet sand.  May as well be concrete.........  God help you if you do.  If you had, you WOULD NOT be able to get back to your feet where you have all of your experience.



wrong and wrong again

sand gives, concrete doesnt, not to mention the fact that they just spent millions on the new place, I am sure they aint rolling on the beach very much.

like i said, go roll on concrete and tell me how much fun it is.

Plus, I dont care WHO you are, wrap your legs around me all you want, it will still take both your hands to choke me and it will take between 30 seconds and 2 minutes

If both your hands are engaged in choking me, there is nothing to keep me from sinking my thumb an inch and half into your eye socket or tear a piece of you out with my teeth.............I told you, I train for SELF DEFENSE, not a sport art with rules to keep both people safe.

*no one thing can keep you safe, and everything can be countered.*

a fighting spirit is far more important than any given technique


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## BrandonLucas (Dec 9, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> wrong and wrong again
> 
> sand gives, concrete doesnt, not to mention the fact that they just spent millions on the new place, I am sure they aint rolling on the beach very much.
> 
> ...


 
Ok, ok, fellas...I see where this is going...

This argument has been kicked around forever...and it's really not dealing with the original post directly.  

If anyone wants to start a new thread, go for it...but this is starting to smell like another "BJJ sucks" thread...


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## Tez3 (Dec 9, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> wrong and wrong again
> 
> sand gives, concrete doesnt, not to mention the fact that they just spent millions on the new place, I am sure they aint rolling on the beach very much.
> 
> ...


 
I'm ignoring the invitation to wrap my legs around you bit lol sounds far too iffy with my mind!! But I can choke you with one arm I promise and I can do it to people bigger than me! Works standing and on the floor.
From the back put your arm around neck as in a normal choke, make sure crook of elbow is directly under the victim's I mean Ukes chin, then place your hand (the choking arms hand) palm flat against your head preferably behind the ear. This is good for bodyguards etc especially if carrying a gun as the other arm can use that while you use the body as a shield. It works I've used it 'outside' being smaller than most men it works even better for me as it pulls them down which helps choke them out.

Sand on some beaches here is very hard, it's used to train racehorses tostrengthen their legs.


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## Twin Fist (Dec 9, 2008)

Irene, you can wrap your legs around me anytime......LOL

%-}


When you are not being contrary, you are very descriptive in your posts, which is great, really easy to visualize what you are saying, not everyone has that gift.

Brandon,
I am not bashing any art, but steve keeps trying to expound on the superiority of bjj, and I know better

no martial art is useless, no martial art holds ALL the answers

even in a pig sty one can sometimes find a diamond


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## SA_BJJ (Dec 9, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> Irene, you can wrap your legs around me anytime......LOL
> 
> %-}
> 
> ...


 I am not trying to say that BJJ is Superior...I am just saying give it its credit.  Its not a sport only art.


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## Twin Fist (Dec 9, 2008)

i disagree


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## BrandonLucas (Dec 9, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> Irene, you can wrap your legs around me anytime......LOL
> 
> %-}
> 
> ...


 
I understand you're not bashing another art..but I still think that this woule be better suited in another thread, if for no other reason than to avoid derailing this one.


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## miguksaram (Dec 9, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> because in BJJ you WANT to be on the ground, in fact, if all you know if BJJ, you are helpless untill you are on the ground
> 
> in REAL self defense the ground isnt your friend, you dont want to be there, and while you are trying for that armbar, his cousin Bubba is gonna be kicking a hole in your face.
> 
> ...


 
I know I'm late chiming in but I just couldn't help myself from laughing.  How much training in BJJ do you have?  I'm not saying all fights go to the gorund, but do you truely believe all fights remain standing and NEVER EVER go to the ground?  What happens IF it does go to the ground?  Is your TKD effective?  

BTW...Why is it that the person the BJJ guy is fighting has hundreds of friends, but the BJJ guy never has a friend around in these scenarios?


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## miguksaram (Dec 9, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> i disagree


 
Based on what facts?


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## SA_BJJ (Dec 9, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> i disagree


 So exactly how much EFECTIVE ground or grappling work do you have under your belt.  Do you hold a belt rank in any grappling art?  Or do you just "mess around" with your buddies and kick their asses.  Please believe, if you ever encountered a half way decent BJJ artist, you wouldnt fair to well on the ground.  I dont care how many eyes gouges you try of biting or whatever.  Doesnt matter, you get wrapped up youre done.  And no if a good choke is applied quickly you will be out much faster than 30 secs.


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## Steve (Dec 9, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> Irene, you can wrap your legs around me anytime......LOL
> 
> %-}
> 
> ...


Where have I done any such thing?  Had you not mischaracterized me, I would have left well enough alone. :deadhorse


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## Twin Fist (Dec 9, 2008)

Sorry Steve, i didnt mean you. Typo on my part, please flog me with a dead fish.......:angel:


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## Tez3 (Dec 9, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> Sorry Steve, i didnt mean you. Typo on my part, *please flog me with a dead fish*.......:angel:


 

I think that may be the limit now lol!

I think a wee hike back to the OP is now called for.

Does anyone else have concerns that small children are fighting bigger ones in what is essentially MMA or am I being the overprotective mother/instructor here? There is a big age difference between 7 and 9. From what I saw on the video the OPs lad is being very game and really going for it but I can no way describe what he's doing as BJJ as I know it. Mixing kicking and punching into the grappling at such a young age also seems odd to me, I thought the OP had meant his son was training TKD and BJJ separately not together like this. it puts a different complexion on things and I shall have to think about it.


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## Twin Fist (Dec 9, 2008)

not just you, i worry about mma with kids that young

my concern in the possible loss of balance while one kid has his arms wrapped around the neck of another kid.

i could easily see a broken neck comming out of that. not to mention nasty joint injuries like hyper extentions or dislocations


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## garrisons2 (Dec 9, 2008)

I watched the video and based on your kids age, I think he did very well.   With respect to the standard I have in my mind for a Black Belt, it only reinforced the notion that kids that young should not get black belts, except in the most rare cases.   Anything else is a sell out to commercialism


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## Sylo (Dec 10, 2008)

I'm coming in late on this one.

However. Over at another forum I will not name.

If you mention TKD over there as a form of SD.. you'll get your hiny reamed for even breathing or thinking such. BJJ is like a pagan god over there, and the end all be all. So its rather funny to me, that over here it seems that its the opposite in a way..

To me, there is an art for all occasions.

I chose TKD knowing that i would be getting little to no ground training. I am perfectly fine with this, and I know that if I want to fight on the ground I need to learn something else. Now BJJ would probably not be my choice, simply because of all the MMA hype it has received. But I do not doubt its effectiveness. I however, believe all other forms of ground arts can be just as effective if trained correctly. Just like those who naysay TKD as a SD art. I believe the same applies. TKD vs. MT has been a long standing feud. And, to me.. much like this one.. its personal preference in training. Any of them can be lethal and effective if used correctly. 

If I go out into the streets with the MMA mindset, sure I'm gonna get pwned. But I thought we were training in BJJ the art.. not BJJ the sport. If I had my pick.. I'd take Judo over BJJ for ground fighting. BJJ seems to be more fluid, where as TKD is "stiff" and I feel another "stiff" art would benefit me better in the long run.

Just my 2 cents.


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## SA_BJJ (Dec 10, 2008)

Sylo said:


> I'm coming in late on this one.
> 
> However. Over at another forum I will not name.
> 
> ...


You can learn both.  Alot of fights go to the clinch.  In the clinch learn to throw.  then at least when you get them down you can tear off their arm and beat them with it...lol


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