# Kenpo Principles



## Kirk (Jun 27, 2002)

Is there a finite amount of principles that are part of the kenpo
curriculum?  If there is a finite amount, what are they?  After this,
maybe we can discuss the techs one at a time, and I can find out
which principles each one teaches?


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## kenpo3631 (Jun 27, 2002)

I wish Mr. Planas were posting....


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 27, 2002)

Its on the To-Do list......along with several other folks.


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## Scott Bonner (Jun 27, 2002)

There has to be a finite number of principles, or they wouldn't be principles -- first concerns.  We could probably make up rules ad infinitum, but you have to pick and choose to have principles.

Having said that, I don't know what they are, other than the ones I've learned.  They seem to be endless sometimes!


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## Sandor (Jun 27, 2002)

Here is a llink to the list we've been using;

General Rules Of Kenpo 

:asian:


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## Mace (Jun 27, 2002)

Sandor,
 For the rule "always keep your hands above your opponents", what does that apply to?
Respectfully,
Mace


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## Sandor (Jun 27, 2002)

Pretty straight forward; It refers to keeping your hands above your opponents hands. Inside or outside, the techs utilize this in various ways like checks, contours, blocks, contact manipulations and strikes where you take advantage of the dominant position afforded by staying on top whenever possible. 

As a point of combative strategy, this concept is not unique to Kenpo as I have been taught this in other arts like Arnis, JiuJistu and the Chinese arts that I've had the pleasure of exploring, (especially) Chi-Sao training.

Thats my take on it..hope that helps.

Peace,
Sandor


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## Sandor (Jun 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by kenpo3631 _
> 
> *I wish Mr. Planas were posting.... *



Good luck. Master Planas seriously dislikes message boards and news groups. "Too much crap being slung around on them and not enough time being spent on the mat. If people spent that much time doing their Kenpo instead of talking about it they would all be better off" or something like that is what he said when I asked him about them a few years ago. 

Peace,
Sandor


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## satans.barber (Jun 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Sandor _
> 
> *Here is a llink to the list we've been using;
> 
> ...



There's a few of these I don't understand (maybe just the wording), can you elaborate? :

"Always cat in but never away" - Does that mean that we shouldn't step back into a cat stance? I nearly always do, and in most of the techniques it's a step back?

"There is always a cross-over before a step-through." - Before a step-through what? Punch? On the techniques against a step through punch, when I attack I never employ a cross over?

"Never step down in line. " - ?

Thanks,

Ian.


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## Mace (Jun 27, 2002)

Thanks for the clarification.
Mace


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## Mace (Jun 27, 2002)

If you cat backward during a tech, say delayed sword, you are disengaging your body from your opponent only to have to re-engage. Once you have the basic mechanics down, you should stop catting back and keep your momentum forward. The same thing can be said with the block. Try not to step back and pull your force away from your opponent, rather settle and project your force forward. Hope that helps.
Mace


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## Sandor (Jun 27, 2002)

Mace did a good job of explaining the cat stance. I'll give you the others.



> _Originally posted by satans.barber _
> 
> *
> ...
> ...


When stepping through you expose the groin as part of the transition. Crossovers will eliminate/minimize that exposure and get you to a safe distance to step-through.



> *
> "Never step down in line. " - ?
> *



This is a reference to balance. If you put your feet in line you only have two points of contact with the floor for balance versus three/four like most of the stances. So, if you kick (for example) and land in a line you jeopardize your balance.

Hope that helps.


Peace,
Sandor


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## RCastillo (Jun 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Sandor _
> 
> *Here is a llink to the list we've been using;
> 
> ...



Dumb question here from one of DC's fledglings:

1. Do those apply to Tracy kenpo as well?

2. Who created those Rules?

Thanks, and Respects:asian:


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## Sandor (Jun 27, 2002)

Hola Ricardo, como estas? When did DC start trainin armadillos?!?

1. If you like, sure. Though I don't remember getting a list similar to this when I studied Tracy's I don't see why you wouldn't.

2. I am not sure of the origin of the list as in who compiled it. However, the list as posted is one we've been passing around for years within the CKF. 

I may have gotten it from Sean Kelley or Lee Wedlake Jr. They were both nice enough to supply a bunch of sheets of info as hand outs over the years this is one of them.

It is by no means the ultimate compilation of the ideas(read:I fully expect DC to let me have it for even putting up the link),  just a handy guide of useful phrases, terms and concepts in one place for folks to refer to. Since Kirk asked I figured it may help him out in gathering some as a starting point. I've heard Planas, Trejo, Wedlake and Kelley refer to many of the items on the list word for word in classes and seminars. 

Anyways, if any of you found it useful then cool, I hope you enjoy it and maybe it saved you a little time. If not, move along an build your own. No worries :asian:

Peace,
Sandor

ps..anyone have Wedlake's Kenpo Karate 101 handy? I think a copy is in there too.


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## RCastillo (Jun 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Sandor _
> 
> *Hola Ricardo, como estas? When did DC start trainin armadillos?!?
> 
> ...


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## Sandor (Jun 27, 2002)

hehe.. we've got both here too. Though where I live its mostly pigeons and supermodels runing wild in their natural habitat...

Peace,
Sandor


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## RCastillo (Jun 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Sandor _
> 
> *hehe.. we've got both here too. Though where I live its mostly pigeons and supermodels runing wild in their natural habitat...
> 
> ...



I'll take one "Supermodel", to go, gift wrapped, if ain't too much trouble!


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Sandor _*
> (read:I fully expect DC to let me have it for even putting up the link).............
> *



Let you have what....... lol.... I think it is a fairly good list except for the items I disagree with....:rofl: 

:asian:


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## Sandor (Jun 28, 2002)

:rofl: lol!

Because I have seen you tear similar items apart for some of those items that you disagree with  

Just out of curiosity Mr.C, do you have a similar list?


Peace,
Sandor


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 28, 2002)

of course.... any good Kenpoist has one.... and many items are the same.

1st is.... 

There is always an exception to the rule sooner or later.....
Study always from "3" points of view
Never say Never
The common list of 21
Learn your Kenpo tools
Logic guides your decisions
etc.

:asian:


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## Seig (Jun 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> 
> *
> 
> I'll take one "Supermodel", to go, gift wrapped, if ain't too much trouble! *


And just what would you hope to accomplish?:rofl:


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 28, 2002)

the wrapping paper for Christmas.:rofl: what else!
:asian:


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## Seig (Jun 28, 2002)

Somehow, i think I am off his Christmas Card list!:roflmao:


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 28, 2002)

Just his way of making you think that so you get him a bigger gift!


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## Seig (Jun 28, 2002)

I thought it meant I didn't have to get him one at all!


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## satans.barber (Jun 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Sandor _
> 
> *Mace did a good job of explaining the cat stance. I'll give you the others.
> *



They make sense now, thankyou 

However, I think I'd struggle to be in the correct range for the front snap on delayed sword/sword of destruction if I didn't step back...

Also, on begging hands, stepping back into a cat pulls the attacker of balance, if this wasn't done it'd be whooly less effective (from my perception anyway)

I don't think I know of any other examples at present, I'll have a look trhough my notes,

Ian.


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## Mace (Jun 28, 2002)

Hey Ian,
 In delayed sword, your back foot doesn't move when you cat back as a beginner. So your range will not change if you fire the kick from point of origin, only the distance the kick must travel. Try altering your target if you feel jammed, say to the inside of the right thigh. Let me know if it works for you.
 In begging hands, you want to drop your weight with the first move to use marriage of gravity to break the grab. Your left foot will step back, but your mass doesn't, it settles downwards. Add the torque of the hands circling in opposite directions and its a very effective move. It actually has more power than stepping back and just using the rear delts and lats.Hope that helps.
Mace


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## Scott Bonner (Jun 28, 2002)

Regarding the cat stance, it seems to me that the rule is not to try to keep you from using a cat stance or from stepping back.  Rather, it's about keeping your energy and force going forward while you do either of those things, and when you do them together.  It's hard to explain in words.  See Leaping Crane for an example of stepping away from the opponent while keeping the energy moving toward them -- if you can stop and stand on one foot during the second move, you need to work on keeping your energy forward.  That can be applied to some degree any time you step back and kick.  I have to be reminded of keeping energy forward all the time, like when I learned Raining Claw last night.   

Note "energy" in this case is about balance and focus and bracing angles, not about manipulting energy like a soft stylist might do.

When I've heard the "cross-over before you step through" it has been in the contect of the cross-out after finishing a technique.  As stated, the idea is to protect the centerline (read: groin) until far enough away from the bad guy.

Mr. Conatser, are there any items on the CKF list that you would not put on your list?  I would be interested in seeing differences in your priorities/approach and the author of that list (whoever it was, Mr. Planas, Mr. Wedlake, etc.).


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## satans.barber (Jun 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Mace _
> 
> *Hey Ian,
> In delayed sword, your back foot doesn't move when you cat back as a beginner. So your range will not change if you fire the kick from point of origin, only the distance the kick must travel. Try altering your target if you feel jammed, say to the inside of the right thigh. Let me know if it works for you.
> *



This is where it gets diffuclt to discuss stuff on-line, rather than in a dojo, ah well!

Firstly, are we both starting delayed sword from a stood normal stance? Thats how I start it. 

From there, your feet are in a horizontal line with each other, so to get into a cat stance you're going to have to either slide the left foot back, which is what I'd do all the time, or slide the right foot forwards, which I can't recalle ever doing. 

If I were to step forwards, bearing in mind the attack is a lapel grab then I would be in range for a roundhouse or fowards knee, but there's no way I could get a snap kick in. Stepping back it all lines up perfectly...

Ian.


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## Mace (Jun 28, 2002)

Hi Ian,
 You are right, this is tough over a forum. Lets see if we can get on the same page. Starting from a natural stance for delayed sword, step back with the left foot but settle down and forward with your inward block. Now instead of catting backwards with the right foot and bringing your weight back as well, keep your weight forward and fire the kick from point of origin. You should be albe to slightly bend your right knee while in your neutral to "chamber" the kick. You still have your line, you just aren't pulling away from your opponent to go back in with the kick.
Hope this helps,
Mace


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## satans.barber (Jun 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Mace _
> 
> *Hi Ian,
> You are right, this is tough over a forum. Lets see if we can get on the same page. Starting from a natural stance for delayed sword, step back with the left foot but settle down and forward with your inward block. Now instead of catting backwards with the right foot and bringing your weight back as well, keep your weight forward and fire the kick from point of origin. You should be albe to slightly bend your right knee while in your neutral to "chamber" the kick. You still have your line, you just aren't pulling away from your opponent to go back in with the kick.
> ...



Ahh, I see what you mean now, I think I had my wires slightly crossed. You're not referring to stepping backwards into a cat stance as 'catting back' but more how you move the kicking leg? If I understand correctly.

In that case yes, I can see how you can apply it in delayed sword, there's no need to weight shift backwards fully, although the more weight you shift back the better marriage of gravity you get on the handsword, so I think a happy medium needs to be found.

A solid principle though now I know what it means!

Thanks,

Ian.


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## RCastillo (Jun 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> 
> *
> And just what would you hope to accomplish?:rofl: *



I want a "trophy" for my room!


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## RCastillo (Jun 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> 
> *Somehow, i think I am off his Christmas Card list!:roflmao: *



Are you kidding? Hit Men get top priority!:sniper:


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## RCastillo (Jun 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> 
> *I thought it meant I didn't have to get him one at all! *



Hey, I don't ask for much! Just a little ranking within the IKKO would be a good start!(5th Dan)


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## RCastillo (Jun 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *the wrapping paper for Christmas.:rofl: what else!
> :asian: *



No paper needed, just one big red bow!


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## jfarnsworth (Jun 28, 2002)

Yikes! I'm glad your not asking for too much. :erg: 
Jason Farnsworth


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 28, 2002)

he delusional......:rofl:


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## RCastillo (Jun 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *he delusional......:rofl: *



I can't help it. it's that climate in Arizona! it does things to you, things you can't imagine!


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _*
> It does things to you, things you can't imagine!
> *



Well, I hope one thing is smart decision someday.... 
hee hee:rofl: 

:asian:


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## RCastillo (Jun 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



Oh ,oh. A hidden message from the "Golden One!" I need help in deciphering this one!


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 28, 2002)

Don't burn up too many brain cells..... pondering..... lol

:roflmao: :roflmao:


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## Kirk (Jun 28, 2002)

Okay, so breaking down Delayed Sword ... what rules is it 
supposed to teach?  The first block is meeting a horizontal with
a vertical (block) ... the kick teaches when you cat you cock ...
the chop to the neck teaches marriage of gravity ... 

What else?


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## satans.barber (Jun 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *Okay, so breaking down Delayed Sword ... what rules is it
> supposed to teach?  The first block is meeting a horizontal with
> ...



I'm not au fait with a lot of these motion science buzzwords (although the principles do fascinate me) so I may have the wrong one here, but isn't there rotational torque on the blocking hand?

i.e. the torque created from twisting the block around in that fashion is then applied (in conjunction with marriage of gravity) to the neck when striking?

Ian.


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## sumdumguy (Jun 28, 2002)

Hmmm, well let's see! I know that Mr. Conatser will post a thousand and one things that delayed sword teaches so I will keep it breif. But first ask yourself what are principles? And do you believe that all of the elements that you learn in delayed sword are in fact principles or something else.

:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 29, 2002)

I feel both...... many principles and many "other" ideas as well......

Many look but few see........

:asian:


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## Rainman (Jun 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *Okay, so breaking down Delayed Sword ... what rules is it
> supposed to teach?  The first block is meeting a horizontal with
> ...



The inward block path is diagonal- vertical is up or down.  The cat is transitional and violates Point of Origin and economy of motion if your definitions are from a book.  Planting from the kick to the groin with an outward handsword to the "maxilary hinge or carotid artery" uses gravitational marriage if the timing is optimum along with aligning factors and again is on a diagonal but a line this time.


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## satans.barber (Jun 29, 2002)

Harking back to that list of 20 principles, can someone explain 'always have a bracing angle' to me a little? I printed it out and scribbled a load of notes under each one, and that was the only one that I had to leave blank.

Also, I was trying to think of examples for the 'stay on the circle', 'reverse the circle' and 'cut the circle in half' options. For staying on the circle, I had Capturing the Storm as my example, and for cutting the circle in half I had Circling Destruction (double factor through the circle into the handsword). Although, this is from my understanding of what was on the list, I may be barking up the wrong tree!

I'm struggling to think of a reversing circles example though, can someone cite one for me? 

Thankyou,

Ian.


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## sumdumguy (Jun 29, 2002)

How about the tech reversing circles?


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## Sandor (Jun 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by satans.barber _
> 
> *Harking back to that list of 20 principles, can someone explain 'always have a bracing angle' to me a little? I printed it out and scribbled a load of notes under each one, and that was the only one that I had to leave blank.
> 
> ...



Probably the best technique for examining a variety of circles in application  would be Blinding Sacrifice though there are lots of examples of their applications throughout the tech list.  Blinding Sacrifice is cool because this particular tech features them as dual moves and makes them very easy to see.

Both Short 3 and Long 3 are repleat with examples of the uses of circles as well. A lot of category matching/category completion can be done on the various circles in there. Its all on how you want to look at the concept. Remeber, it a conceptual statement. Look to the three things you can do with a circle every time you use any portion of a circle and you may see additional opportunities to capitalize on the concept. It doesn't mean that every time you use a circle you have to go beyond its current application but that you can if it makes sense for you to do so.

'Always have a bracing angle' is a reference to the structure/architecture of the body and Kenpo basics. Easiest way to start looking for bracing angles is in stances; compare Forward bow, Neutral Bow, and Reverse Bow for example. Each of these stances has strengths and weaknesses from any of the eight angles. In a Forward Bow you have a lot of strength and support to resist against if someone pushes you from 12:00 but from the 3 & 9:00 lines you will be more easily moved because the bracing angle isnt there to support against those angles.

Stances are the easiest to demonstrate the concept with over a keyboard   

A good question to ask DC or one of the other seniors would be why is there no bracing angle in the way the vertical middle knuckle rake is applied in Short 2... :shrug: 

Hope that helps...




:asian: 


Peace,
Sandor


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Sandor _*
> 'Always have a bracing angle' is a reference to the structure/architecture of the body and Kenpo basics.
> 
> A good question to ask DC or one of the other seniors would be why is there no bracing angle in the way the vertical middle knuckle rake is applied in Short 2... :shrug:
> *



Well, remember there is always an exception to any rule..... sooner or later, i.e., never step into darkness, we try to always step into the safest direction available.... key word "available".  Often times we have no choice but to move accordingly and that may break a prior rule or guideline that works 99 % of the time.

The middle knuckle rake is the first action for ducking under something while blocking or checking upward and striking in the opposite direction... block up / strike down.  Up to this time we have blocked forward and struck forward this is a new definition for a new purpose.

:asian:


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## satans.barber (Jun 30, 2002)

I don't know reversing circles, or the forms you mentioned. I'll have to go and see if I can find a listing somewhere.

Thankyou for the explanation of a bracing angle though, that makes sense now. I've got a bit of something scribbled down for each of those 20 points now that I can read over.

Ian.


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