# Kata Chinto...



## jks9199 (Apr 16, 2011)

I was judging at an open, though heavily Isshin-ryu, tournament today.  A number of competitors did the kata Chinto, and I noticed something that made me curious.  My fellow judges weren't really sure what was up, either.

At the beginning of the kata, there is a 360 degree spin, followed by a back lean or step, and then we get the oddity...  Some people raised their front knee, as if for a knee block.  At least one lifted the leg up, with the foot kind of dangling... Any idea what was up?


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 16, 2011)

jks9199 said:


> I was judging at an open, though heavily Isshin-ryu, tournament today.  A number of competitors did the kata Chinto, and I noticed something that made me curious.  My fellow judges weren't really sure what was up, either.
> 
> At the beginning of the kata, there is a 360 degree spin, followed by a back lean or step, and then we get the oddity...  Some people raised their front knee, as if for a knee block.  At least one lifted the leg up, with the foot kind of dangling... Any idea what was up?



I have seen Chinto done a bunch of different ways; Isshinryu groups are not all uniform in how we do our kata in the USA.

In my tradition, the kata begins with a step back into a cat stance, with an x-block to a 45 degree angle to the left from the starting position.  Then an obi-grab, back fist, and step forward with a reverse punch.  Then a backfist block with the left and a down block with the right.  Then comes the 360 degree spin, ending in a down block with the left hand in the original 45 degree posture.  Then one falls back into the cat stance again, again does the x-block, and then performs a double or scissor type kick.  The left sets down - it's up in a cat.  The right kicks, and while chambered on the return, the left kicks.  This happens quickly - it's set down left, kick right, kick left.  The second kick should come while the right leg is still chambered and in the air.  Then the karateka lands and performs an x-block down with fists clenched.

This is Shimabuku Soke's Chinto:







I have seen Chinto done with a t-stance instead of a cat, but I've also seen some kind of weird stuff too.

My lineage is me -> Sensei Holloway -> Sensei Harrill & Sensei Mitchum -> Shimabuku Soke.

Others in the USA get their lineage from other American students of Shimabuku Soke, and they do perform some of the kata differently.


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## Grenadier (Apr 16, 2011)

As Bill pointed out, there are many, many versions of Chinto out there, and some are significantly different from others.  

The only two versions that I can give a detailed insight on, are the Wado Ryu Chinto, and the Shotokan Gankaku.  

After the spin in the beginning, you look to the same direction in which you started, after which, you either perform a jumping front kick (Chinto), or a jumping double front kick (Gankaku).  In other versions, I've seen some individuals simply raise the knee as a block, or to use the raise to take a longer step going forward.


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## seasoned (Apr 16, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I have seen Chinto done a bunch of different ways; Isshinryu groups are not all uniform in how we do our kata in the USA.
> 
> In my tradition, the kata begins with a step back into a cat stance, with an x-block to a 45 degree angle to the left from the starting position. Then an obi-grab, back fist, and step forward with a reverse punch. Then a backfist block with the left and a down block with the right. Then comes the 360 degree spin, ending in a down block with the left hand in the original 45 degree posture. Then one falls back into the cat stance again, again does the x-block, and then performs a double or scissor type kick. The left sets down - it's up in a cat. The right kicks, and while chambered on the return, the left kicks. This happens quickly - it's set down left, kick right, kick left. The second kick should come while the right leg is still chambered and in the air. Then the karateka lands and performs an x-block down with fists clenched.
> 
> ...


I recall it done this way also from my Chinto days before going strictly Okinawan GoJu. Sadly tournament kata flash is added to some kata which I feel is detrimental to the art. When in doubt as a judge at an event I will ask for clarification of bunkai.:asian:


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 16, 2011)

seasoned said:


> I recall it done this way also from my Chinto days before going strictly Okinawan GoJu. Sadly tournament kata flash is added to some kata which I feel is detrimental to the art. When in doubt as a judge at an event I will ask for clarification of bunkai.:asian:



The question was raised when I was in Champaign last week for a seminar. Our instructor aske the seminar instructor if the cat stance should be arched up significantly off the heel or a lower stance. The seminar instructor asked our instructor to take the higher stance, then he kicked his instep hard. Sensei said it hurt all week. Apparently, bunkai for us is a slightly lower heel-raise cat stance. I can't say I know why exactly.


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## Sojobo (Apr 17, 2011)

Grenadier said:


> As Bill pointed out, there are many, many versions of Chinto out there, and some are significantly different from others.





Grenadier said:


> The only two versions that I can give a detailed insight on, are the Wado Ryu Chinto, and the Shotokan Gankaku.
> 
> After the spin in the beginning, you look to the same direction in which you started, after which, you either perform a jumping front kick (Chinto), or a jumping double front kick (Gankaku). In other versions, I've seen some individuals simply raise the knee as a block, or to use the raise to take a longer step going forward.




The kick in the Wado-ryu version is also a nidan geri (double kick).

There are a number of kata where a kick in one style is a knee raise in others - symbolic maybe, but there is also the issue of the inertia gained for the technique that follows (ie with the dropping of the kicking leg/raised knee into the technique).

In Wado ryu we practice "kette" a lot when doing Ido kihon zuki, not only for this reason but it is a major part of it.

sojobo


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## Victor Smith (Apr 17, 2011)

I normally only focus on our own Isshinryu performance.

Here is an old performance of one of my students when he was a ShoDan.  




While not perfect it does represent the standard I expect a shodan to pass through on the journey.

Does it resemble what you were describing?  If not why not review youtube Isshinryu chinto performances to find one similar and then perhaps we can discuss.

All systems are really unique by each dojo and lineage.


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## jks9199 (Apr 17, 2011)

Victor Smith said:


> I normally only focus on our own Isshinryu performance.
> 
> Here is an old performance of one of my students when he was a ShoDan.
> 
> ...


I haven't hunted for videos because I had 3 rather senior Japanese style black belts (Isshin-ryu, and Shorin-ryu, for certain) judging with me, and I asked them about it.  The best guess they had was that the move -- and the differences -- were local variants, because they hadn't seen it before. 

Using your video as a reference, at about 0:15, he completes a 360 degree spinning step, coming out in a left down block, then draws back to a cat stance.  He does a hand sequence (blocks, though I can make a striking interpretation, as well, from looking at it), then does what I would say is a leaping step driving the right (back) foot forward to power a left jumping snap kick.  The "mystery move" would take place with the left (front) leg, either raising the knee as if a knee block or chambering a kick without actually kicking, or just lifting the leg in almost a lifting/straight leg kick to step down and then bring the right leg forward.

I'm just curious about it...


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## Victor Smith (Apr 17, 2011)

Now I remember why I don't spend much time trying to understand what others are doing in Isshinryu and just focus on what i was taught.

With your identification of that movement's location I just went through an entire range of Isshinryu kata and believe I may have an answer for you.

The movement you're describing is prior to the double kicking sequence. I was taught that sequence as a jumping front kick, but it's origin was a jumping double front kick. Subtle but obvious differences.

It looks to me as the origin of the rising left knee may be the Isshinryu of Uezu Angi.

Isshinryu's founder just performs a jumping double front kick.  But Uezu Sensei seems to be using that rising left knee to start the body's rise to then perform a jumping double front kick. Others in Isshinryu are doing so more dynamically too.

It seems to me the origin behind the movement is to increase the height of the following two kicks. Certainly there are application uses to be found but I suspect that wasn't the reason for the change.

Watching a range of Isshinryu Chinto right now there are just as many variations on those movements as there are kata.

Personally I respect all, but only focus on what was taught to me. That alone's kept me busy for a lifetime.

Perhaps my speculation helps.


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## jks9199 (Apr 17, 2011)

It does.  I flicked through a few more examples, and noticed that in some versions, there's an extended step prior to the right leg coming forward, as well.  

Like you -- I don't worry too much about what others are doing.  I've got my own training in Bando, and I stay faithful to what my teacher has taught me.  I've still got plenty that I'm refining & perfecting...

But, sometimes, it's fun to look at what others are doing in my own style or in other styles.  And, sometimes, I just get curious about something I've seen!


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 17, 2011)

Fascinating - what Victor Smith just said jibes with my own memories of something I was told by my senior sensei; they said that when they learned Chinto some 30 years ago, it was a distinct pushing off with that left leg to get them into the air; not simply setting down the raised heel and then mae geri with the right leg, and another mae geri with the left leg whilst the right leg was still being rechambered.  It was more of a step forward into a jumping kick, I believe they told me.  Not anymore, at least not by UIKA.  I was never taught that, just recall (thanks to Mr. Smith) hearing about it.

Thanks - fascinating information.

FYI - Victor Smith - your Chinto has some really interesting differences from ours.


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## Victor Smith (Apr 17, 2011)

Hi Bill,

Yes I long ago discovered what was shared with me is both similar and dissimilar to other Isshinryu.

My instructors were and still are such solid, good people I've never had the slightest interest in switching what I practice. It's just the application potential of my kata may be different from others. Technique still works with skill.

My original instruction also contained many sub variations of the kata. In essence they all came from Mr. Lewis' watch and he was most interested in you did the version(s) you did well than worry about the correct version.  When Mr. Murray trained in Okinawa in 71-72 he also remarked on the differences he found.

IMO there is rich diversity in Isshinryu and I wish everyone the skill to take there versions and turn an opponent into ..... <GRIN>


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## scottie (Jul 13, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I have seen Chinto done a bunch of  different ways; Isshinryu groups are not all uniform in how we do our  kata in the USA.
> 
> In my tradition, the kata begins with a step back into a cat stance,  with an x-block to a 45 degree angle to the left from the starting  position.  Then an obi-grab, back fist, and step forward with a reverse  punch.  Then a backfist block with the left and a down block with the  right.  Then comes the 360 degree spin, ending in a down block with the  left hand in the original 45 degree posture.  Then one falls back into  the cat stance again, again does the x-block, and then performs a double  or scissor type kick.  The left sets down - it's up in a cat.  The  right kicks, and while chambered on the return, the left kicks.  This  happens quickly - it's set down left, kick right, kick left.  The second  kick should come while the right leg is still chambered and in the air.   Then the karateka lands and performs an x-block down with fists  clenched.
> 
> ...



I know that I really late on this response. 
I was raised in the Harold Long Lineage as I was originally taught this kata the back knee (stepping through) is raised into a chamber then stayed as a fake kick. Then kicking with the other leg. In Kusanku they do the double jump front kick. When I sought out one of Master Mitchum's top black belts as a sensei, I was asked to change a lot in my All of the empty hand Kata. I was told that Master Long did not change the kata purposely. It was told to me that after he had a stroke he had to re-learn a lot. (this was before his books and videos) and the people that he had reteaching him screwed up a few small moves in the kata. The guy that told me this showed me his personal video of Master Long pre-stroke and we looked at the video that he put out and he showed me the small things that were changed. I don't know the validity of this, but the guy that told me this is not a Long student anymore, but he was there during all of this time. So he was not taking up for Long. The one good thing that I saw in this if it is true is that he did not Change it on purpose. There is speculation as to why the person taught him wrong. I won't even get into that. (I CAN'T PROVE THIS!!! I WAS ONLY TOLD THIS I DON'T KNOW HOW TRUE THIS IS)


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## punisher73 (Jul 13, 2011)

scottie said:


> I know that I really late on this response.
> I was raised in the Harold Long Lineage as I was originally taught this kata the back knee (stepping through) is raised into a chamber then stayed as a fake kick. Then kicking with the other leg. In Kusanku they do the double jump front kick. When I sought out one of Master Mitchum's top black belts as a sensei, I was asked to change a lot in my All of the empty hand Kata. I was told that Master Long did not change the kata purposely. It was told to me that after he had a stroke he had to re-learn a lot. (this was before his books and videos) and the people that he had reteaching him screwed up a few small moves in the kata. The guy that told me this showed me his personal video of Master Long pre-stroke and we looked at the video that he put out and he showed me the small things that were changed. I don't know the validity of this, but the guy that told me this is not a Long student anymore, but he was there during all of this time. So he was not taking up for Long. The one good thing that I saw in this if it is true is that he did not Change it on purpose. There is speculation as to why the person taught him wrong. I won't even get into that. (I CAN'T PROVE THIS!!! I WAS ONLY TOLD THIS I DON'T KNOW HOW TRUE THIS IS)



It is interesting. If you look at first book on the basics their 3rd and 4th techniques, which in every other Chart I have seen are a reverse punch and uppercut. Their 3rd and 4th is just a regular lunge punch, but you start it on the left foot. So you have rf/r lunge punch then rf/r uppercut, then lf/l lunge punch, instead of rf/rp and then lf/rp. Makes sense that things got changed on other things too.

As a side note, I visited an Isshin-Ryu dojo that was Master Long's lineage and they also performed the basics that way.


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## Black Belt Jedi (Jul 16, 2011)

Chinto/Gankaku kata is a very unique which I would like to learn someday. I have read this article written by Iain Abernethy on Chinto.

http://www.iainabernethy.co.uk/article/chinto-gankaku-kata-history-application


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