# Locking Horns



## jfarnsworth (Dec 27, 2002)

The next up on the list should be Locking Horns. This is the class description that I have used so far, variations probably exist from instructor/studio/ and preference feel free to add any info. you feel is importatn.


5. LOCKING HORNS (front right arm headlock) 
1. With feet in line with each other and body bent forward, step forward with your right foot toward 11 o'clock and deliver a right upward vertical reverse hand sword to opponent's groin while simultaneously having your left hand check opponent's right thigh just above the knee and your chin turned in such a position so as to keep your breathing constant. (Turn your chin to the right and tuck it against your chest.) 
2. Immediately follow-up with a right obscure vertical elbow strike to opponent's jaw while keeping in a shallow right neutral bow (flower out). 
3. After snapping the elbow to opponent's jaw loop your right elbow and strike again (shuffling forward if needed) having it drive from 1 o'clock down to 7 o'clock to the left side of opponent's jaw as your left heel of palm hooks in and strikes opponent's right jaw thus causing a sandwiching effect. 
4.  Front crossover cover out towards 6 oclock.


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## Brother John (Dec 27, 2002)

Try this on for size:
on #1 of the technique.
W/the outward swordhand to the left knee, strike 'through' the knee... hitting first w/the swordhand then roll it over (counter-clockwise) into an outward/downward knuckle rake to the lower head of the medial-quadriceps head (easiest thigh muscle to target as it tends to stick out a bit from the knee).  This motion will help to bend his leg out more, opening up the groin a bit more... not to mention the added pain to the knee.

Hope I was clear.
Your Brother
John


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## Kenpomachine (Dec 29, 2002)

> 1. With feet in line with each other and body bent forward, step forward with your right foot toward 11 o'clock and deliver a right upward vertical reverse hand sword to opponent's groin while simultaneously having your left hand check opponent's right thigh just above the knee and your chin turned in such a position so as to keep your breathing constant.



We've also done this (like 15 years or so ago, when I first study kenpo) with the left hand pinching in the nerve in the thigh near the groin, instead of checking. There's a pressure point in there.


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## Doc (Jan 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *The next up on the list should be Locking Horns. This is the class description that I have used so far, variations probably exist from instructor/studio/ and preference feel free to add any info. you feel is importatn.
> 
> 
> ...



You won't get any farther than this. You'll be choked out. There are many mechanisms missing but let's start with the basic. If you turn your head AWAY from the choke to your right, you will loose conciousness, possibly have your neck broken, or be taken down. Either way, you loose. Sorry.


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## jfarnsworth (Jan 1, 2003)

Yes I do realize that. My JJ friend & I went over this a while back. I wanted to get his couple of pennies on it and he said you only have maybe a couple of seconds and it's over. He showed me a very effective counter to a choke from the front like that. The only problem being is that for OUR art it utilizes both our arms then moves into a throw. I can do the throw/takedown version he gave as an example but it may not be for everyone else. Tomorrow I have a private with him maybe we'll cover it again and get some more insight.


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## kenpo3631 (Jan 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *You won't get any farther than this. You'll be choked out. There are many mechanisms missing but let's start with the basic. If you turn your head AWAY from the choke to your right, you will loose conciousness, possibly have your neck broken, or be taken down. Either way, you loose. Sorry. *



Sir,
That is true, however aren't you supposed to move prior to them completing the lock of choke? I had a confrontation similar to this attack when I was in high school. I got into it with another student and ended up in a front headlock somehow (I was just a yellow belt back then), when I hit the groin shot that dude immediately let go and grabbed for what hurt. I know that was a one in a million senario, but isn't that how it "should" work?

:asian:


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## kenpo_cory (Jan 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *If you turn your head AWAY from the choke to your right, you will loose conciousness, possibly have your neck broken, or be taken down. Either way, you loose. Sorry. *



Isn't this true if you turn your head TOWARD the choke? They can't exactly choke the back of your neck right?


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## jfarnsworth (Jan 3, 2003)

I think he's talking about tucking your chin to your right or left shoulder.


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## jfarnsworth (Jan 3, 2003)

After the class last night I had with my JJ friend he showed three different counters to this applied choke that were really good. Unfortunately I don't think I can type the movements in terms on the board. Sorry guys. If it comes to me I will but they were a little too hard for description purposes.


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## Kenpomachine (Jan 4, 2003)

Don't worry about that. If you feel sometime like describing them, it's welcome, if not, we'll manage with the hand sword to the groin.
 It worked so far for kenpo3631


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## Doc (Jan 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kenpo_cory _
> *Isn't this true if you turn your head TOWARD the choke? They can't exactly choke the back of your neck right? *


 
Sir's, the attack is not a "front choke," it is a "front headlock" that has the potential to become a choke. That changes the scenario significantly.

Turning the head INTO the headlock and placing the chin against your clavicle will preclude the choke. Then you have time to work the "headlock" counter should you have a mechanism.

Should you turn your head away from the headlock, you complete the "lock" and will be unable to move forward as the technique suggests without snapping your own neck.

Additionally as I alluded to previously, commercial applications teach counters as "attempts" before the assaults are completed because the mechanisms needed to counter completed "hands on" assaults are generally not known. 

I always compliment those who recognize dificiencies in their instruction who attempt to rectify those inadequacies rather than accept the obvious problems imposed by the commercial applications. However it should be made known the answers do exist in American Kenpo depending on the knowledge level and study venue of the instructor.

Clearly if hands on assaults are only practiced as attempts then, when do learn to actually extricate yourself? After all American kenpo is a self defense art, not an "except when he grabs me good art."


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## cdhall (Jan 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *Additionally as I alluded to previously, commercial applications teach counters as "attempts" before the assaults are completed because the mechanisms needed to counter completed "hands on" assaults are generally not known. *



Sir, 

With all due respect I think I am confused.  Just yesterday I was teaching Triggered Salute, Captured Twigs, Captured Leaves, and Entangled Wing.  While some of these presented difficulties one thing that was not difficult was that the attacks were a Push, Rear Bear Hug Arms Pinned, Fingerlock, and "Front Wristlock as taught."

When I started with Triggered Salute I was very careful to point out that is against a Push.  Not an attempted push.  The two are not the same as it turns out.  And on each of these I realized just now, there is a lock or strike involved.

I always point this out.  I always tell them that Delayed Sword is vs a Grab. I always make sure they let the attack happen before they move.  As I frequently explain, we have techniques later which you can use if you pick up the attack Before it gets to you.

I get this from Mr. Duffy of course.  Are you saying that you don't believe that commercial schools generally teach this way?  Because I have had this reinforced at camps and seminars by the likes of Mr. LaBounty, Tom Kelly, Frank Trejo, Bob White, John Sepulveda, Bryan Hawkins, Bob Liles, Dennis Conatser, Howard Silva and others whom I'm fortunate enough to train with periodically and I don't think these guys change their methods of teaching just for the camps and seminars I attend.

I am sure that I must be misunderstanding what you are saying.

This "grab vs attempted grab" stuff might be best discussed on another thread.

But regarding Locking Horns, is not one of the first "simultaneous" moves to look away from the elbow as you tuck your chin and step in?  I was taught to always look to the opening but I have mistakenly turned into the elbow on occasion and since we are not practicing these at "combat force or speed" often, especially with White and Yellow Belts it often seems like it doesn't matter although we point out that you have a much better chance of being smothered if you don't turn to the opening.  And after looking at this technique description again, if you step in with your right is this not because his right is on top of your head with his fist to your right?  So you step in with your right and turn your head left toward the opening?    I may not understand the "headlock" attack as I have it as someone reaching behind your head with his right and then rolling you onto his left forearm and pulling you in.  Does anyone have photos or maybe a clip of this technique to illustrate it?

I "dropped all those names above" just to let you know that these guys definitely have taught me techniques that were not altered to be against "attempted" grabs when they were not written to be so.  I am looking forward to you straightening me out on this issue because as I said, I'm sure that either you are not referring to the guys I mention or that I am just missing your point completely.

Thank you. :asian:


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## Doc (Jan 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *Sir,
> 
> With all due respect I think I am confused.  Just yesterday I was teaching Triggered Salute, Captured Twigs, Captured Leaves, and Entangled Wing.  While some of these presented difficulties one thing that was not difficult was that the attacks were a Push, Rear Bear Hug Arms Pinned, Fingerlock, and "Front Wristlock as taught."
> ...



No you don't misunderstand. Most do not teach that way.

*



			But regarding Locking Horns, is not one of the first "simultaneous" moves to look away from the elbow as you tuck your chin and step in?
		
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*
Nope!

*



			I was taught to always look to the opening but I have mistakenly turned into the elbow on occasion and since we are not practicing these at "combat force or speed" often, especially with White and Yellow Belts it often seems like it doesn't matter although we point out that you have a much better chance of being smothered if you don't turn to the opening.
		
Click to expand...

*
Nope! That is incorrect. The assault is a headlock not a "smother" or a choke, but it can turn into a choke if you do not extricate yourself. A head lock and choke are not the same.

*



			And after looking at this technique description again, if you step in with your right is this not because his right is on top of your head with his fist to your right?
		
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*
Nope! If one arm is on top and the other on the bottom, you have nothing especially not a head lock.

*



			So you step in with your right and turn your head left toward the opening?
		
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*
Nope! You step back.

*



			I may not understand the "headlock" attack as I have it as someone reaching behind your head with his right and then rolling you onto his left forearm and pulling you in.
		
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*
Your description of the head lock suggests you do not understand the nature of the assault. The head lock is accomplished when you "lock" someone with the right forearm underneath, right hand to your left and BRACED by your left hand underneath your right hand. they cannot step forward when the headlock is applied, only before it is applied in an "attempt." You must first survive the head lock before other considerations.

If all this "grappling and jiu-jitsu stuff is being taught, why are so many of these students finding it necessary to  leave for other arts for the answers? Why are so many saying "Kenpo doesn't address these things."

So tell me, how do you get out of "Entagled Wing"  or "Twisted Twig" AFTER they are applied? I'd be interested in how you've been taught or interpret the technique.


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## kenpo3631 (Jan 6, 2003)

> So tell me, how do you get out of "Entagled Wing" or "Twisted Twig" AFTER they are applied? I'd be interested in how you've been taught or interpret the technique.



I am sure at the *more* advanced levels of Kenpo (Sub Level 4 stuff) you will learn how to do this and I am sure it is a worth while endeavor. As far as doing the aforementioned techniques, I was always taught that the technique needs to be done before the lock is fully applied, I have even attended seminars where Mr. Parker himself made that statement. Again I understand that there is more to Kenpo than what is taught at one seminar however for the majority of students, this methodology makes the most sense to translate the motion idea that is being conveyed. 



> If all this "grappling and jiu-jitsu stuff is being taught, why are so many of these students finding it necessary to leave for other arts for the answers? Why are so many saying "Kenpo doesn't address these things."



I don't think that people feel that this stuff isn't taught in the system of Parker Kenpo just that many instructors don't have the knowledge or have only touched upon the subject of Sub Level 4 with Parker before his untimely death. Also many students including the black belts have their hands full learning the theories and concepts to get them to their particular goals. Just because a person has one understanding of the art doesn't make it incorrect, just different. Only through practice and analytical study of the art can one become proficient and understand the full scope of what is going on in the _BIG_ picture.:asian:


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## Kenpomachine (Jan 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kenpo3631 _
> *I am sure at the more advanced levels of Kenpo (Sub Level 4 stuff)*



Don't want to sound stupid, but... what's this sub level 4 you're talking about?


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## Brother John (Jan 6, 2003)

You might want to look up and PM the martial talk member that goes by DOC....
Sublevel4 is his stuff.
Your Brother
John


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## kenpo_cory (Jan 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *Sir's, the attack is not a "front choke," it is a "front headlock" that has the potential to become a choke. That changes the scenario significantly.
> 
> Turning the head INTO the headlock and placing the chin against your clavicle will preclude the choke. Then you have time to work the "headlock" counter should you have a mechanism.
> ...



Ok, I'm definitely confused here. I also train for completed locks and I have never heard of turning your throat INTO a choke, aren't you handing them the choke by not turning away? Like I said before they can't exactly choke the back of your neck right?I'm just a beginner here so I'm not trying to sound like I know it all or anything, I think I'm probably not understanding here.


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## Doc (Jan 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kenpo3631 _
> *I am sure at the more advanced levels of Kenpo (Sub Level 4 stuff) you will learn how to do this and I am sure it is a worth while endeavor. As far as doing the aforementioned techniques, I was always taught that the technique needs to be done before the lock is fully applied, I have even attended seminars where Mr. Parker himself made that statement. Again I understand that there is more to Kenpo than what is taught at one seminar however for the majority of students, this methodology makes the most sense to translate the motion idea that is being conveyed.
> 
> 
> ...



Of course you're absolutely correct, (as you ususally are), and  that was what I was saying.  But you also reflect the general consensus of "react before you're grabbed" at that level of training, which I also said. 

I only mean to remind some that what they have learned may only be the beginning. And more importantly, additional knowledge is not "self discoverable." A study of "motion" may yield new perspectives of old conceptual information, but will not produce new real knowledge. A person MUST be taught, and I think that is a given outside of commercial applications of the martial arts in the real world.

Let's not do a dis-service to Mr. Parker and think Infinite Insights and his other books are the totality of his American Kenpo. They are only a drop in the bucket of this man's knowledge and abilities. That is why you (generic) can't duplicate what he did and the way he did it.

I would rather people seek "teachers" of any art than to sit on what they have so far and feel they can "find" the rest for themselves. It is just not possible anymore than you can teach yourself advanced mathmatics because you know how to add, subtract, and divide.

We must continue to concentrate on the empty portion of our cups, and not the filled. 

Ed Parker used to say 99% don't even have a cup.

I also do not want to give anyone the impression that SubLevel Four is the ultimate answer or the only "advanced Kenpo." It is only one of many perspectives and all instructors and interpretations must be evaluated according to an individuals personal needs, and/or desires in study and training and seek the level that satisfies them. 

The term itself, "SubLevel Four Kenpo," was created by me based on a phrase Ed Parker used in my teaching. I am not saying he called it that. Also it is not really my mission to promote SL-4, only to promote a more specific and knowledgeable thought process that benefits all in Kenpo as Ed Parker wanted. 

Oh and one other thing, (not that it matters) but Ed Parker was a serious Raider Fan.  He liked the idea they wore "black" and had that "rebel" image in football just like he had in the arts. But as much of an innnovator as he was challenging convention, underneath he was a "traditionalist" once he found what really worked.


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## Michael Billings (Jan 6, 2003)

... and has a hole in the bottom of it.  I keep trying to fill it up, but at my age, I also have braincells dying every day.

Thanks for being more specific about the attack.  I have always gone under the neck with the right, grabbing left with right, but then somehow over the years, I started snaking the left arm over the back of the opponent's neck, almost an inverted sleeper attack, that could easily turn into a neck break or choke.  The degree of lethality went up because it was no longer a lock, rather a choke, and the necessary response time got much shorter, hence the execution of the technique as soon as you feel the arms circling the throat.  And yes I do it after I am locked up also, tucking the chin to protect the airway ... but still scary if someone is cranking on the neck the way I encourage them to do.  Will try the variation you described next class.

Yee-Haaaaaaa!!!!  

Oss,
-Michel


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## kenpo3631 (Jan 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *Of course you're absolutely correct, (as you ususally are), and  that was what I was saying.  But you also reflect the general consensus of "react before you're grabbed" at that level of training, which I also said.
> 
> I only mean to remind some that what they have learned may only be the beginning. And more importantly, additional knowledge is not "self discoverable." A study of "motion" may yield new perspectives of old conceptual information, but will not produce new real knowledge. A person MUST be taught, and I think that is a given outside of commercial applications of the martial arts in the real world.
> ...



Thank you Mr. Chape'l for the kind words. I've been at this for 17 years ( a drop in the bucket for most) and I am still finding information everytime I read Mr. Parker's books or train with my instructor or go to a seminar. You're right that what we learn is the tip of the iceberg. As a matter of fact I tell people that what I know is just that~the tip of the iceberg. Anyway thanks for sharing your knowledge on this forum with us. It's great food for thought! 

PS- I am a Raider fan too... :asian:


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## jfarnsworth (Jan 6, 2003)

Thank you Dr.Chapel for posting your comments and insight. The reason I practice with my JJ friend is that I feel he knows more than I do on material such as joint locks, chokes, holds, and manipulations. He also however asked my opinion on 2 man techniques, flow drills, striking, and I gave various examples of methods of execution for his students in striking. We have more of a trade off situation. We covered extensively on weapons defenses as well. He is also close and a very good friend. Our wives go shopping together to boot. Anyhow I was seeking out his nitche so to speak to gain more insight for myself. Seek out those who are more knowledgeable bring it back, refine it, plug it into as many techniques as possible. This is what I feel training in the martial arts is all about.


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## SingingTiger (Jan 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *Ed Parker used to say 99% don't even have a cup. *



I'd guess they've never been kicked in the groin.  I always wear mine!

Rich


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## Doc (Jan 6, 2003)

:asian:


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## Doc (Jan 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kenpo3631 _
> *Thank you Mr. Chape'l for the kind words. I've been at this for 17 years ( a drop in the bucket for most) and I am still finding information everytime I read Mr. Parker's books or train with my instructor or go to a seminar. You're right that what we learn is the tip of the iceberg. As a matter of fact I tell people that what I know is just that~the tip of the iceberg. Anyway thanks for sharing your knowledge on this forum with us. It's great food for thought!
> 
> PS- I am a Raider fan too... :asian: *



GO RAIDERS!

Thanks much. It is also important that I not give anyone the impression I'm "selling" SL-4. I'm not. I AM advocating your perspective however. Methodologies may vary but real knowledge crosses all barriers including style. 46 years and still trying to figure out all the stuff I don't know.


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## Doc (Jan 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *Thank you Dr.Chapel for posting your comments and insight. The reason I practice with my JJ friend is that I feel he knows more than I do on material such as joint locks, chokes, holds, and manipulations. He also however asked my opinion on 2 man techniques, flow drills, striking, and I gave various examples of methods of execution for his students in striking. We have more of a trade off situation. We covered extensively on weapons defenses as well. He is also close and a very good friend. Our wives go shopping together to boot. Anyhow I was seeking out his nitche so to speak to gain more insight for myself. Seek out those who are more knowledgeable bring it back, refine it, plug it into as many techniques as possible. This is what I feel training in the martial arts is all about. *



You must be commended for continuing to educate yourself. The more you know, the more you know.


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## Doc (Jan 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *... and has a hole in the bottom of it.  I keep trying to fill it up, but at my age, I also have braincells dying every day.
> 
> Thanks for being more specific about the attack.  I have always gone under the neck with the right, grabbing left with right, but then somehow over the years, I started snaking the left arm over the back of the opponent's neck, almost an inverted sleeper attack, that could easily turn into a neck break or choke.  The degree of lethality went up because it was no longer a lock, rather a choke, and the necessary response time got much shorter, hence the execution of the technique as soon as you feel the arms circling the throat.  And yes I do it after I am locked up also, tucking the chin to protect the airway ... but still scary if someone is cranking on the neck the way I encourage them to do.  Will try the variation you described next class.
> ...



Yeah my cups obviously has a leak as well. I just can't seem to get in filled.

You'll find by turning into the headlock at the bend of his arm and bracing your chin against your clavicle, it PREVENTS a choke momentarily.


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## cdhall (Jan 6, 2003)

I also want to thank Doc for sharing.
I do want someone, preferably Doc now that I think of it, to get a picture of this Front Headlock and put it up so I can see what it is.  And then the next move about where to turn and step would be great.

I will see about getting something up about Entangled Wing and Twisted Twig perhaps by taking some photos tomorrow night after class.

Like they used to say on the great cartoon classic GI Joe "Knowledge is Power!"
:asian:


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## jfarnsworth (Jan 7, 2003)

Gentleman I think were all here on this forum for the same reason. Learning more about kenpo.


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## Goldendragon7 (Jan 7, 2003)

Jason take note..........

6.  LOCKING HORNS (Front headlock) 

1.  With your feet in line with each other and your body bent forward (caused by your opponent applying a front headlock using his left arm to lock you with) simultaneously (1) step forward with your right foot toward 11 o'clock into a right wide kneel stance between your opponent's legs, (2) deliver a right underhand reverse handsword to your opponent's groin, (3) have your left hand check just above your opponent's right knee while (4) turning your chin to the left, and tucking it against your chest to prevent your opponent from cutting off your air supply. (Your opponent should loosen his grip and bend forward at the waist. Depending on the effectiveness of your strike, your opponent's legs can conceivably move back and away from you.)
2.  Immediately follow up with a right vertical obscure elbow strike to the underside of your opponent's jaw, "with" your left hand still checking the knee, and while keeping low in a right neutral bow. (This elbow strike should force your opponent's head up in preparation for the next strike.)
3.  After snapping your opponent's jaw upward with your right obscure elbow, simultaneously (1) shuffle forward, (2) deliver a right inward horizontal elbow strike to the left side of your opponent's jaw, along with (3) a left heel palm strike that hooks in and to the right side of your opponent's jaw. (The force of this sandwiching effect may cause your opponent to pass out and fall to the ground.)
4. 	Right front crossover, and cover out toward 7:30.
:asian:


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## GouRonin (Jan 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *Nope! If one arm is on top and the other on the bottom, you have nothing especially not a head lock.*



One thing I like about you Doc is that you talk about the attack as well as the defense. Something I notice that many have not even talked about in this thread. I have seen about 3 different ways people slap the attack on someone. Most often when people do this technique they just bend over and allow the attack.

I have seen people apply this with the head centre to the chest and expect it to still work. I think that it might help a lot of people to study the attack as well as the defense. More often than not the people who say they have trouble with X technique are often not dealing with the right attack or how they got there in the first place.


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## jfarnsworth (Jan 7, 2003)

Are we all doing the attack as the right arm snakes around the head/back of the neck to left side moving to our right? The left hand can have various grabs but clasp the hands together or the attacker's left hand grabbing their right wrist applying the headlock?


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## Kenpomachine (Jan 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *I also do not want to give anyone the impression that SubLevel Four is the ultimate answer or the only "advanced Kenpo." It is only one of many perspectives and all instructors and interpretations must be evaluated according to an individuals personal needs, and/or desires in study and training and seek the level that satisfies them.
> 
> The term itself, "SubLevel Four Kenpo," was created by me based on a phrase Ed Parker used in my teaching. I am not saying he called it that. Also it is not really my mission to promote SL-4, only to promote a more specific and knowledgeable thought process that benefits all in Kenpo as Ed Parker wanted.
> *



Thanks for the information, now I'll know what people is talking about when they say SubLevel 4 Kenpo


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## Kenpomachine (Jan 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> * Most often when people do this technique they just bend over and allow the attack. *



We're are taught to punch first in the stomach to make the defendant bend over, and then do the headlock.


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## rmcrobertson (Jan 7, 2003)

Gou's quite right, I think. I'd argue it's because people try to stay at an embryonic level--that's how the tech's taught for some very good reasons, but we forget that we're not actually going to bend over and receive it (yes, Gou, that means exactly what it looks like it means) in real life.

There are other places in kenpo where I see the same thing, or get chewed out, quite properly, for making the mistake. People who hand the attacker their arm in Locked Wing, Twisted Twig. People who launch what should be a straight ball kick as an outward crescent to "help," the defender with the block.

I got weaned off this starting early. About 1995-6, I was in a morning class that Rick Jeffcoat was teaching. In a technique line, I handed the attacker a stick; I think we were running, "Evading the Storm." Rick stopped the class, and yelled moderately, one of the only times I saw him yell. "Don't you EVER hand a guy a weapon to attack you with, not even in line! Throw it on the ground and at LEAST make him stoop over and pick it up!" Good for him, and boy did that little lesson ever stick with me.

As for Locking Horns, I'm used (well, partly used) to having somebody either shove my head down into the lock, or jump on top of me first, or yank me forward. Eeek.


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## SingingTiger (Jan 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *"Don't you EVER hand a guy a weapon to attack you with, not even in line! Throw it on the ground and at LEAST make him stoop over and pick it up!"*



That's great!  We're also often reminded not to make the attacker's job easier, arm locks being the most common type of attack where the "victim" helps out without thinking.

If I ever make it up to club attacks and the like, I'll remember not to hand the weapon to my attacker.  Hehe, I like that!

Rich


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## Doc (Jan 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *One thing I like about you Doc is that you talk about the attack as well as the defense. Something I notice that many have not even talked about in this thread. I have seen about 3 different ways people slap the attack on someone. Most often when people do this technique they just bend over and allow the attack.
> 
> I have seen people apply this with the head centre to the chest and expect it to still work. I think that it might help a lot of people to study the attack as well as the defense. More often than not the people who say they have trouble with X technique are often not dealing with the right attack or how they got there in the first place. *



6. LOCKING HORNS (Front headlock)

1. With your feet in line with each other and your body bent forward (caused by your opponent applying a front headlock using his left arm to lock you with) 

simultaneously (1) step forward with your right foot toward 11 o'clock into a right wide kneel stance between your opponent's legs, (2) deliver a right underhand reverse handsword to your opponent's groin, (3) have your left hand check just above your opponent's right knee while (4) turning your chin to the left, and tucking it against your chest to prevent your opponent from cutting off your air supply. (Your opponent should loosen his grip and bend forward at the waist. Depending on the effectiveness of your strike, your opponent's legs can conceivably move back and away from you.)
2. Immediately follow up with a right vertical obscure elbow strike to the underside of your opponent's jaw, "with" your left hand still checking the knee, and while keeping low in a right neutral bow. (This elbow strike should force your opponent's head up in preparation for the next strike.)
3. After snapping your opponent's jaw upward with your right obscure elbow, simultaneously (1) shuffle forward, (2) deliver a right inward horizontal elbow strike to the left side of your opponent's jaw, along with (3) a left heel palm strike that hooks in and to the right side of your opponent's jaw. (The force of this sandwiching effect may cause your opponent to pass out and fall to the ground.)
4. Right front crossover, and cover out toward 7:30.

*This is what I have been saying for years. The technique description above as taken from the Ed Parker Manuals by Big D actually tells you nothing at all about the attack or the proposed defense. It is only meant to get an instructor started and provide a beginning place (or not) for a teacher to work from.

As Gou said it doesnt even really define the attack, and that is where you have to start. Physical martial interaction is so dynamic, how can you meticulously define a response without a specific attack? And that means you must teach the attack first doesnt it?*

1. With your feet in line with each other and your body bent forward (caused by your opponent applying a front headlock using his left arm to lock you with) ..

*What does that mean? How do you get bent forward? Is there an offensive action that gets you there and you are already hurt? Are you just tying your shoe? HOW do you execute the headlock? From the front, or do you snake around and hook? Now it says, using his left arm to lock. Now does that mean the left arm is locking and the right hand is bracing, or does that mean the right arm is the primary with the left locking as it implies?*

simultaneously (1) step forward with your right foot toward 11 o'clock into a right wide kneel stance between your opponent's legs,

*What stance were you in to begin with? Which leg was forward or back? Clearly if you are standing with your feet together and your head is at your waist, then youve already lost according to Ed Parker  Head at waist keeps feet in place. How can you step forward? This description implies you MUST move before he grabs you to survive. If thats true than its not a headlock but an ATTEMPTED headlock.*

deliver a right underhand reverse handsword to your opponent's groin, (3) have your left hand check just above your opponent's right knee while 

*Based on the previous description, this is not even possible. So you check his knee after you strike him? After you strike the groin, it wont be possible to check his knee. More than likely you wont be able to reach his legs based on whats written.*

while (4) turning your chin to the left, and tucking it against your chest to prevent your opponent from cutting off your air supply.

*
Now which arm is he using again? It makes a difference but isnt it a little late to worry about it turning into a choke? As described hes already put you in a head lock, and you struck him in the groin. It seems a bit late to worry about being choked. Either youre successful at this point or youre already free.
*
Depending on the effectiveness of your strike, your opponent's legs can conceivably move back and away from you 
*
Thats why I said you would be unable to reach his legs AFTER an effective strike.
*
2. Immediately follow up with a right vertical obscure elbow strike to the underside of your opponent's jaw, "with" your left hand still checking the knee, and while keeping low in a right neutral bow.
*
This part is really out there. We are still checking his knee (that we cant reach because he move back from the strike), WHILE we execute a vertical obscure elbow at the SAME TIME, while keeping LOW in a NEUTRAL BOW? Confusing isnt it?
*

My point is a simple one. The foundation of this material is the instructor. All of the written information is conceptual and vague with no real specific information. The manuals were originally meant for instructors to interpret and define and create workable ideal techniques, within the group of instructors and students under their supervision and lineage. It was never meant to be specific. Students did not have access to this information because they did not have the ability to interpret it, and they were never meant to define it for a group. Then the manuals became commercially available for all when the demand grew.

In other words the instructor is everything and the foundation of what is learned will always be predicated on his knowledge level and his ability to convey what he knows to the students. Misunderstandings in the curriculum are always the instructors fault, and never the materials. The created materials were not designed to teach the student. They were designed to only support the instructor with possible ideas to extrapolate to logical conclusions. 

Kenpo is about logic and you should always start with that word before anything. The materials are not gospel and were never meant to be. Gospel comes from the person teaching you, and his gospel was supposed to come from occasional interaction or correspondence with Mr. Parker. This is the Arthur Murray Dance School Model, and it worked very well  as long as teachers did their job.

The mass confusion exists because many instructors are not doing / or didnt do their job. In many instances its not their fault they have limited information, but it is their fault if they are not honest with their students. Instructors need to add the phrase, I dont know to their vocabulary and make the students well being in the street the most important thing. That should be their primary responsibility.

Clearly some instructors do better than others, and a few (relatively speaking) are exemplary. But the instructor must always take responsibility for their students ability and knowledge, or lack thereof. It is their responsibility to get their students the absolute best information available. Afterall they are teaching self defense. That is what separated us from the traditionalists back in the day.

When Mr. Parker started this program he had a luxury. He started with people like Chuck Sullivan, Dave Hebler, Steve LaBounty, Tom Kelly, etc. who could and would drop you like a bad habit BEFORE they began martial arts training. These were men that interpreted the information and taught students to make their interpretations work under the scrutiny and light of reality. They set the standard and carried it well. 

But commercial proliferation dictates compromises that ultimately affect the product for some. Dont be upset about it, but accept the product for what it is. 

Dont go to McDonalds and complain about the food, just find a better place to eat. In other words do what many of you are doing; ask serious questions and expect serious definitive answers from teachers.

If they give you vague answers that tell you nothing after youve spent 30 minutes warming up doing exercises you can do at home for free, its time to find another restaurant.
 

Below is the proliferation art structure for those who might be interested from a previous post.

MOTION BASED KENPO has a structured LESSON PLAN with THREE PILLARS. 

1.	The Head Instructor or Teacher (Keeper of the Concepts)
2.	The Web Of Knowledge
3.	The Technique Manuals

Primary and most important is the Head Teacher of a group of students regardless of rank. They are responsible for the Knowledge of the Lesson Plan and a clear understanding of the purpose of the lesson plan as well as Mr. Parkers Concepts to guide them in the implementation of the Lesson plan. This is where the weakness and strength lies in motion based Kenpo.

The LESSON PLAN is designed primarily for the TEACHER. Each situation technique is suggested by and taken from the WEB OF KNOWLEDGE in the LESSON PLAN. The HEAD TEACHER is then supposed to examine the idea presented in the TECHNIQUE MANUAL.  The HEAD TEACHER then utilizes THEIR KNOWLEDGE of ED PARKER CONCEPTS and designs an IDEAL RESPONSE based on the idea in the TECHNIQUE MANUAL that's workable and also teaches a basic skill. Additional physical TAILORING is allowed for students who may have a particular physical deficiency with the LESSON PLAN lesson, but is NOT supposed to be done for personal preferences.

Unfortunately many instructors who were either taught incorrectly or misunderstood the lesson plan, mistakenly engage in the commonly misplaced practice of the "what if" from the beginning with students. Students therefore are inundated with inappropriate options when they should instead be learning the simple lessons of the teacher created "ideal" technique well enough to be functional. This counterproductive "what if" mentality stays with the students and ultimately teachers and permeates motion based Kenpo. According to Parker himself, What ifs should not be considered at the First Phase. Parker said this was important to be taken well into black belt because the lessons are interrelated. Lessons at lower ranks are examined compounded, reversed, mirrored, prefixed, and suffixed at higher levels IF the lessons remain fixed and consistent in the lesson plan.

I find it ironic many Kenpo students constantly talk about "what ifs as they conjure up more "Grafting" options while the so-called "ideal" technique, which is where students should be, no longer exists only because teachers dont create or allow them to exist. That's why students and now teachers alike seek solutions in "tailoring," "what ifs," "grafting," and even the study of other arts to fill perceived holes. The holes do exist, but they are not in Kenpo but in the Head Teachers knowledge base to implement the Lesson Plan. 

Until teachers use the Lesson Plan correctly, basic skills will not be learned and as now, students will seek their own answers wherever they can find them. These type discussions bear that out. Hordes of students from the same art, all with lineage to Ed Parker and a consensus is difficult to find within some groups. Differences are acceptable but a Head teacher of a group is responsible for functional consistently among their group.

Teachers must do their job. The Teacher created "ideal" technique should be functional and emphasize and teach specific skills at every level. As long as instructors don't do their job, students will continue to talk about what doesn't work, more than what does.

Ed Parker was the only "expert" and he knew he couldn't be everywhere. He wanted his art to proliferate while he continued to evolve, and solidify, what was supposed to eventually be a "strict hard curriculum."  That is why the motion based Kenpo Lesson Plan was created. There is nothing wrong with it with competent instruction and the proper use of the Lesson Plan as Ed Parker intended.

What most are unaware of is Parker "imported" the first tier instructors to implement the Lesson Plan from other arts so it worked. Since then the "teachers" are now products of the Lesson Plan itself and have never been subjected to a strict curriculum. Therefore their weakness is passed on to the next generation of "teachers" who have even less information. (And so on)

As you know a "lesson plan" is only a guide to insure the curriculum follows a logical and progressive path for the student, but ultimately the teacher is responsible for the implementation of the information.

But a strict "hard" verbatim curriculum is even more dependent on the teachers skill and knowledge so Parker knew the next step would more than likely require a new generation of teachers.  It is a sad fact that once significant rank is given, students are no longer interested in curriculum they feel is beneath them, and neither do they embrace the idea of "relearning" something they think they already know.

Students of all levels think they can learn basic and advanced materials through videos and personal exploration. Until students learn the lesson that there is much more to learn, and you cant learn it on your own, Kenpo will languish at the hands of many mediocre teachers who should be students themselves.

This problem was created by Ed Parker and he knew that under the Lesson Plan Method, His Art would ultimately began to feed upon itself and lose people to other arts. Unfortunately he didnt live long enough to bring the strict curriculum forth to show you just how great American Kenpo really is. As good as some think it is, it is ten times better than that.

That is not to say all Kenpo teachers are bad. There are many good teachers, but not as many as the bad ones.

Originally the Lesson Business Plan (Big Red Book) was for studio heads only. When students started asking for technique manuals, Ed Parker sold them to everyone. This led to the technique manual is the Bible syndrome. But if it is the Bible, why is it nobody follows it? Because it contains the ideal, but everybody knows the ideal doesnt work. Huh? So why do they exist?


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## jfarnsworth (Jan 7, 2003)

I'd like to ask another question. So I'm in class tonight going over a handful of brown techniques. Now were doing Dominating Circles. I execute Dominating Circles until I get to a point where I find myself performing a "possible" front headlock onto my attacker. Could this be the same movement were looking at in locking horns. I realize that your to have their arm in a hammerlock behind the back but essentially the left hand is what I'm asking about?


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## ikenpo (Jan 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> 
> Below is the proliferation art structure for those who might be interested from a previous post.
> 
> ...



Doc,

How does SL-4's structure differ from this? Just curious. 

jb:asian:


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## Michael Billings (Jan 8, 2003)

You are going to alienate people again if you pose the questions then not provide an alternative so that they can compare and contrast, using critical logic analysis to determine the effectivness of what you allege to have available.  Having read your 101 course material, and seeing some benifits, I think it may be helpful to actually post your version of Locking Horns.  

I know you have done similarly elsewhere with other techniques, or maybe even here, but it seems a long time ago.  It may help answer some questions, rather than stirring up more, especially for the "newbies" who have never been exposed to it previously.  I know you don't mind the controversy, or a spirited dialogue, but I don't want you to fade away again as happened a few months ago.  Also, selfishly, I do not enjoy the no-ended type of posts that just end up circular in logic due to a fundamental disagreement.  

Put it up on the table and let us look at it, dissect the technique, and evaluate.  You can answer questions from there.  Yes, I know it cannot really be "corrected" without a teacher, especially things like the rhythmic timing - which I call syncopated timing, with quarter beat timing being only one example of the variation in a timing pattern.  Nor am I asking you to give it away free ... I know your knowledge and expertise is what you make a living with, but a little more than criticism and questions without answers would help lessen the negative responses you sometimes get.  (As if you did not know this.)  OK, so not everyone knows the terminology you use, they can ask if they really are interested.

Anyhow, hope you decide to post it, you definitly have other's interested, so walk the walk, not just talk the talk.  I know you can from those that know you well, but that does not always come through on a forum.

Respectfully,
-Michael Billings


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## Doc (Jan 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *Having read your 101 course material, and seeing some benifits, I think it may be helpful to actually post your version of Locking Horns.
> 
> I know you have done similarly elsewhere with other techniques, or maybe even here, but it seems a long time ago.  It may help answer some questions, rather than stirring up more, especially for the "newbies" who have never been exposed to it previously.  I know you don't mind the controversy, or a spirited dialogue, but I don't want you to fade away again as happened a few months ago.  Also, selfishly, I do not enjoy the no-ended type of posts that just end up circular in logic due to a fundamental disagreement.
> ...



Are you kiddin' me? I wish I made my living in Kenpo. Anyway these type of "hands on" techniques require a certificated teacher, and much of it may not make sense to outsiders, but it works and lays a firm foundation for other levels of information. By the way when I'm not around it's only because I'm busy. Being concise and providing good specific answers is time consuming. (By the way, "timing" has nothing to do with syncopation)
rGood luck.

6.  	LOCKING HORNS:

ATTACK: Front at 12:00. The attack will begin with your partner reaching up and HOOKING you behind your neck and pulling forward and down with his left hand. Once you are low enough he will bring his right arm over and under your chin for a head-lock. His left hand will pull up on his right hand to BRACE his action as he attempts to use his body weight to take you down on your stomach.

1.  	With your feet in line with each other and your body bent forward caused by your opponent applying a front headlock SURVIVE THE INITIAL ASSAULT by turning your head to your left and brace your chin against your left CLAVICLE to prevent your opponent from cutting off your air supply.  Immediately drop back to 6:00 into a left wide kneel and use a left heel-palm or hand-sword, fingers pointing inward to BRACE your opponents forward leg just above the kneecap (patella), as you grab the back of your right mid-thigh pulling forward. PARTNER CUE: If executed properly you should not be capable of choking or taking the person down. PAUSE
2. 	After you stabilize yourself, strike him at the BRACE point with your left hand with a forward/outward hammer-fist. When he reacts, strike him again and push your BRACE forward to hyper-extend and lock his leg, and immediately strike him in the under centerline quickly with a right reverse hammer-fist strike. PARTNER CUE: This action should push you off balance and your front leg should be straight. The strike to the leg will also cause you to take at least one step backwards with your right foot and lose your grip on the neck. PAUSE 
3.	Then immediately (1) step forward with your right foot toward 12 o'clock into a right wide kneel stance between your opponent's legs, (2) deliver a right underhand reverse HAMMER-FIST to his under centerline, (3) have your left hand continue to check and push firmly just above your opponent's right knee. PARTNER CUE: The strike and leg pressure with the step through will cause you to be driven backwards, and draw your hands toward your lower body while you are slightly bent over with your chin pointing forward. PAUSE
4.  	Push drag forward immediately to get under his chin and follow-up with a right VERTICAL OBSCURE ELBOW STRIKE to the underside of your opponent's jaw bringing your left foot toward your right, "with" your left hand ENERGY SLAP CHECKING your right shoulder. PARTNER CUE: The elbow will cause you to stand straight up and grab your face and stumble back at least another step.   STOP PAUSE
5.  	Step and push drag forward with your right foot, and reach outside both hands (using the B.A.M.) and deliver double crane hand strikes down on his upper forearms while you push drag reverse to control his height and bring his head down. PARTNER CUE: The strikes will cause you to drop in height with your hands straight down while leaning forward.
6.	Push drag forward and deliver a right sandwich elbow strike to the tip of your opponent's jaw. PARTNER CUE: This action will drop you PMD.
7.  	Right front crossover, and cover out toward 7:30 and GRAVITY PAM your front foot.
Timing & Breathing Signature: 1  2 P 3 P 4 P 56 C
GCM Signature: 1G 2G 34G 5G 6G


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## jfarnsworth (Jan 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *6.  	LOCKING HORNS:
> 
> ATTACK: Front at 12:00. The attack will begin with your partner reaching up and HOOKING you behind your neck and pulling forward and down with his left hand. Once you are low enough he will bring his right arm over and under your chin for a head-lock. His left hand will pull up on his right hand to BRACE his action as he attempts to use his body weight to take you down on your stomach.
> ...


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## Michael Billings (Jan 8, 2003)

Thank Doc Chapel, I like the lock out checks, I assume you are striking the nerve plexus on the inside of the knee as you begin to apply the pressure to check and force him back?  (just wanted to ask a question since you graciously put it up for us.)  I also really like the concept of hooking the arms down to disturb the height zone and bring the head back in for the elbow sandwich.  I have been doing the "drop your weight down so you can have your legs under your hips, pushing up with the obscure elbow.  Getting them off your back is nicely answered with your initial movements.  Then from P.O.A. of the obscure elbow, outward back knuckle to the opponent's right temple or hinge of the mandible (this is executed with a slight outward downward hooking action and the right inward elbow follows with an inward slightly downward diagonal path ... resulting in a horizontal figure 8, or infinity symbol, but flattened.  This was an application Mr. Parker actually showed us in a seminar, or after, or somewhere ... but I liked the whipping outward back knuckle (outward shoulder roll) and the inward elbow (augmented by the forward shoulder roll and settling.)  BAM.

I understood the timing signature.  My "syncopated timing" is not just syncopation, but rather my way of explaining timing variations to my students, or the rhythym changes within the context of  a technique.  So you would hear me saying da-Da....da, and the sounds of the checks or strikes match my vocalization of the timing pattern, for them to learn.   I may display alternative timing patterns based upon the individual opponent's reaction to the previous strike, DA .... DA-da.  You of course, have structured the patterns, much more empirically and consistant for your students to learn.  You also allow for the only permissible movement of the opponent, to be what you allow it to be, or what you created.  My interpretation is a much more fluid situation, where adrenaline and missing targets run rampant. 

Once again, I learned something new ... that makes it a good day!

-Michael

Once again, thanks for more grist for the mill.  Hopefully this will give others some idea of your analytical nature and insight into how you work.

Oss,
-Michael


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## Michael Billings (Jan 8, 2003)

PS - Last night in class we were working an upright grappling, forcing the head down in the context of the grapple.  Which is what Doc Chapel describes as the attack in the ideal phase.  Much nicer to work than the bent over, here grab me type of attack.

-Michael


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## cdhall (Jan 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *PS - Last night in class we were working an upright grappling, forcing the head down in the context of the grapple.  Which is what Doc Chapel describes as the attack in the ideal phase.  Much nicer to work than the bent over, here grab me type of attack.
> 
> -Michael *



I might have said this before, but Mr. Duffy prefers to teach this as your opponent is clinched with you, reaches behind your head and pulls you down into a headlock which is where the technique starts.

But again, I'm not sure we are all talking about the same thing being a "headlock."  Jason, can you put up some pics with your camera?  You probably have a few different ideas of what type of attack is the Ideal and also what Doc might be driving at.

Please?


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## cdhall (Jan 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *I might have said this before, but Mr. Duffy prefers to teach this as your opponent is clinched with you, reaches behind your head and pulls you down into a headlock which is where the technique starts.
> 
> But again, I'm not sure we are all talking about the same thing being a "headlock."  Jason, can you put up some pics with your camera?  You probably have a few different ideas of what type of attack is the Ideal and also what Doc might be driving at.
> ...



I want to say that I don't dispute this still might be an "attempted headlock" based on Doc's last post as you of course want to react as soon as you can.  Especially since I'm not sure what the "headlock" is, I will admit that maybe this is still an attempt.  But we do wait for them to get you into position and apply some type of hold, we just emphasize that you want to react before they tighten down.  This may be unlike the grab in Delayed Sword where they grab you and there is no doubt about this, before you defend.  I like Raking Mace as an example of a grab because I always grab and pull them into me and I make sure they know this is the attack, unlike Twin Kimono where they grab and push you away.

I'll shut up until I get the headlock pictures.  Maybe I'll go surfing for some.  There's a thought. :idea:


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## cdhall (Jan 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *I'll shut up until I get the headlock pictures.  Maybe I'll go surfing for some.  There's a thought. :idea: *



What do you know?  First try.  Movie clip and everything.

This is hard to see the hold, but I think the victim could turn his head to his right, step in with his left, left handsword and right check and get Locking Horns going here?  If he had a chance to step in.
http://www.lesgutches.com/techniques/fhl_shot.htm


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## cdhall (Jan 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *What do you know?  First try.  Movie clip and everything.
> 
> This is hard to see the hold, but I think the victim could turn his head to his right, step in with his left, left handsword and right check and get Locking Horns going here?  If he had a chance to step in.
> http://www.lesgutches.com/techniques/fhl_shot.htm *



EVEN BETTER
This one
http://www.stanford.edu/group/jujitsu/images/Video/nidan2.mpg
and
http://www.stanford.edu/group/jujitsu/images/Video/nidan3.mpg

You can use the slider to move the clip fwd/back after it loads.  I think that on the first one he could have stepped straight in and done Locking Horns and this is pretty much how Mr. Duffy has us do the attack.

However, we would have the attacker standing more in front of the opponent (front headlock), his elbow under the face pointing to the floor, not behind the head point to the sky or the wall, and the left hand braced across the back of the head perhaps to help keep the head down.

Even so, I'm not sure this is the attack Doc is describing.

Man, video clips are cool.  I have been wanting to do some myself.  I'll let you know when that happens. 
:asian:


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## jfarnsworth (Jan 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *Even so, I'm not sure this is the attack Doc is describing.
> :asian: *



By what I perceived it would be slightly off. Only because it was done off of their right side and it was furthest away from the camera. We needed a slightly different angle that's all. The attack happened very quickly and once they got to the ground you just couldn't see anything. I would put up my own pictures but it would be on my 10 yr. old son if he's willing. I'm not to sure it can show a whole lot but I can take some anyway viewing them first before showing them off to the world here.


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## cdhall (Jan 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *I'm not to sure it can show a whole lot but I can take some anyway viewing them first before showing them off to the world here. *



Excellent idea.  Thank you.


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## Doc (Jan 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> Thank Doc Chapel, I like the lock out checks, I assume you are striking the nerve plexus on the inside of the knee as you begin to apply the pressure to check and force him back?



Work about two cun's above the knee. It doesn't have to be exact in this case, and it will give the effect you seek. The leg will momentarily jerk or spasm under the pressure.



> I also really like the concept of hooking the arms down to disturb the height zone and bring the head back in for the elbow sandwich.  I have been doing the "drop your weight down so you can have your legs under your hips, pushing up with the obscure elbow.  Getting them off your back is nicely answered with your initial movements.



You should have plenty of time and he should not be able to take you down.



> I understood the timing signature.  My "syncopated timing" is not just syncopation, but rather my way of explaining timing variations to my students, or the rhythym changes within the context of  a technique.  So you would hear me saying da-Da....da, and the sounds of the checks or strikes match my vocalization of the timing pattern, for them to learn.   I may display alternative timing patterns based upon the individual opponent's reaction to the previous strike, DA .... DA-da.



OK I see what you mean. Be aware that the word syncopation refers to a specific pattern of timing, so you may consider using a different term, or just say "timing."



> You of course, have structured the patterns, much more empirically and consistant for your students to learn.  You also allow for the only permissible movement of the opponent, to be what you allow it to be, or what you created.



Wow! You picked that up? You are right. Nobody has ever caught that before. There in lies one of the "secrets" of Ed Parker. That element of control as opposed to the "helter skleter, rapid fire, hope something works" approach which may have some effectiveness when there is "space" between combatants, but breaks down when he "smothers" or there are "hands on." Ed Parker always put you where he wanted you to be and took your options away from you as he did it.



> My interpretation is a much more fluid situation, where adrenaline and missing targets run rampant.



Fluidity can be a good thing, but it should be a secondary consideration to fuction. How do you determine what the "timing" should be of a technique?



> Once again, I learned something new ... that makes it a good day!



So did I.



> Hopefully this will give others some idea of your analytical nature and insight into how you work.



That why my students call me a "mad Kenpo Scientist.":asian:


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## Doc (Jan 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *EVEN BETTER
> This one
> http://www.stanford.edu/group/jujitsu/images/Video/nidan2.mpg
> ...



Last time: A "head-lock" where one arm is on top and the other on the bottom is NOT a head lock. It is a feigned head lock made popular by non- competitive, staged entertainment wrestlers. You're going to have to do it the way Brian wants you to.


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## Doc (Jan 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpomachine _
> *We're are taught to punch first in the stomach to make the defendant bend over, and then do the headlock. *



Contrary to popular belief, strikes to the stomach (or groin) do not cause people to initially "bend over."


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## Kenpomachine (Jan 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *Contrary to popular belief, strikes to the stomach (or groin) do not cause people to initially "bend over." *



I know, when I got hit hard enough I stand back completely straight, like a broom, as we say in spanish.


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## cdhall (Jan 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *Last time: A "head-lock" where one arm is on top and the other on the bottom is NOT a head lock. It is a feigned head lock made popular by non- competitive, staged entertainment wrestlers. *



Doc,
Does that mean that the guy in the clip is doing a headlock?  And is it a front headlock or a side headlock or both?

I just want to know what the attack is.  I'm sure there is a good possibility I'm not doing this the way you describe and that if you put me into a front headlock I'd be in trouble.  So I just want to know what is the attack.  I'll then get into what to do next I guess. 

Is a headlock a one-arm hold like in Grip of Death and Grasp of Death?  There you are pretty well locked up with a right arm headlock and their left is grabbing their wrist to keep the pressure on.  We also turn away from the elbow and toward the "opening" as we step in on this one.  The elbow should be behind your head anyway if they are pulling you toward their centerline as in Grip of Death.

How does this headlock attack relate to Locking Horns?

I hope I don't sound disrespectful, I just want to be clear that I don't know what you are describing and also that I would like to know what you are describing.  I'll look for another clip later.

Thanks in advance. :asian:


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## jfarnsworth (Jan 8, 2003)

Uh, the wife said no to the headlock thing. She didn't like the looks of it from the get go. I'm sorry but someone else will have to attempt it.


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## kenpo_cory (Jan 16, 2003)

Mr. Chapel, 
          So what is your opinion on pinning your chin to your chest instead of the clavicle?


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## Doc (Jan 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kenpo_cory _
> *Mr. Chapel,
> So what is your opinion on pinning your chin to your chest instead of the clavicle? *



The chest is not good because it is not structurally sound. Pinning to the clavicle is almost immovable, and is as structurally sound as the X-factor armature (Head/neck) is possible of assuming. Once executed, no one  can move it but you. Additionally it protects one of the 2 vagas nerves which control sinus rhythm and the thyroid hyoid and the esophagus so you may survive the initial assault, and subsequently retaliate.


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## cdhall (Jan 17, 2003)

FYI,

I looked this up in the "motion kenpo manual" last week and it appears that we are doing this by the book.  It very plainly describes the attack and how it is applied.  It is not apparently what Doc is talking about, which I think I have already asked for clarification on.

Just wanted to say I looked it up.  I didn't have a chance to copy it down and post it here, but I did investigate. 

Doc apparently has a different, better idea.  I'm going to be confused on this until perhaps I see him or he wants to post a clip or something.


Or even a few still photos.


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## jfarnsworth (Jan 17, 2003)

The description I have is what it stated in my very first post. It makes no reference to the attack at all. After reading this thread and re-reading the descriptions I have need to be updated. I've always performed this technique as been taught from the beginning. 
Dr. Chapel I like the attack description you have given on the attack for locking horns and gives much to think about.


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## cdhall (Jan 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *The description I have is what it stated in my very first post. It makes no reference to the attack at all. After reading this thread and re-reading the descriptions I have need to be updated. I've always performed this technique as been taught from the beginning.
> Dr. Chapel I like the attack description you have given on the attack for locking horns and gives much to think about. *



I'll have to go check again tomorrow.  The manual has 2 sections per belt.  Decription and Notes as it were.  I think it is in the teaching notes/themes section that it describes the attack in detail.

I'll look it up tomorrow and post a note.  I'll look back at your first post too.
:asian:


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## jfarnsworth (Jan 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *  I'll look back at your first post too.
> :asian: *



You won't need to do that. All I have is a technique descrprition.


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## kenpo_cory (Jan 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *The chest is not good because it is not structurally sound. Pinning to the clavicle is almost immovable, and is as structurally sound as the X-factor armature (Head/neck) is possible of assuming. Once executed, no one  can move it but you. Additionally it protects one of the 2 vagas nerves which control sinus rhythm and the thyroid hyoid and the esophagus so you may survive the initial assault, and subsequently retaliate. *



Thank you Mr. Chapel, your knowledge is invaluable. :asian:


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## GaryM (Jan 20, 2003)

Hi, just like to give my thoughts on the subject. A front headlock is basically done this way. You grab the guys head and hug it to your chest with both arms (I am going to assume that you know the position if you are familiar with the technique we are discussing) and then you stand up thrusting your hips forward to break the neck. So if your in a headlock from this position there is NO time to spare. The strike to the groin and the leg stops this 'stand up thrust hips forward' and the pain, weakness, shock, combined with the step forward breaks the lock. Yes a guilloteen choke is possible from this but the real danger is a neck break that can happen instantly from the lock. The motion to apply the choke is the same (stand up, thrust hips), and the technique is the same ( I agree, turn head towards opening) and the action of thrusting your arms forward for the strikes kind of makes like a 'turtle' and sucks your head in the shell a bit.  As to wrist locks: In a wrist lock your opponent is pushing the back of the hand and using the wrist as a fulcrum.  To defeat this the fulcrum becomes an 'axel' and the elbow comes up to the opponent's jaw and allows the hand to rotate in the direction of the lock thus relieving the pressure. ( as in Twisted Twig)  So what if lhe lock is more successful and you are being taken 'over the falls' as in the technique twisted rod. Push toward the direction of the throw. The move looks something like this. You are standing about eight feet away from a table and see a glass rolling off the edge, you take a giant step into a long low neutral bow and stretch your hand out palm up to catch the glass.  Looks like one of those kung-fu stances eh? If the opponent is turning to make the throw (he will be) you have a nice little kidney shot. The guy I learned this from would then reverse from this and come right back on his opponent with the identical wrist lock throw, but the opponent was turned so that he couldn't step out and push out of it. I don't know how he made the transition to the lock, he was one of those 'see how great my system is' not one of the 'this is how to do this' types, and I was on the wrong side of the room to see the transition. As for the sub level four stuff I have seen a bit of it and I feel that it is basically blending the principals of Prof. Wally Jay's small circle jujitsu into the kenpo. I highly recommend his tapes. I hope I don't sound like an arrogant knowitall jerk. I definantly don't knowitall. Gary


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## Doc (Jan 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by GaryM _
> *Hi, just like to give my thoughts on the subject. A front headlock is basically done this way. You grab the guys head and hug it to your chest with both arms (I am going to assume that you know the position if you are familiar with the technique we are discussing) and then you stand up thrusting your hips forward to break the neck. So if your in a headlock from this position there is NO time to spare. The strike to the groin and the leg stops this 'stand up thrust hips forward' and the pain, weakness, shock, combined with the step forward breaks the lock. Yes a guilloteen choke is possible from this but the real danger is a neck break that can happen instantly from the lock. The motion to apply the choke is the same (stand up, thrust hips), and the technique is the same ( I agree, turn head towards opening) and the action of thrusting your arms forward for the strikes kind of makes like a 'turtle' and sucks your head in the shell a bit.  As to wrist locks: In a wrist lock your opponent is pushing the back of the hand and using the wrist as a fulcrum.  To defeat this the fulcrum becomes an 'axel' and the elbow comes up to the opponent's jaw and allows the hand to rotate in the direction of the lock thus relieving the pressure. ( as in Twisted Twig)  So what if lhe lock is more successful and you are being taken 'over the falls' as in the technique twisted rod. Push toward the direction of the throw. The move looks something like this. You are standing about eight feet away from a table and see a glass rolling off the edge, you take a giant step into a long low neutral bow and stretch your hand out palm up to catch the glass.  Looks like one of those kung-fu stances eh? If the opponent is turning to make the throw (he will be) you have a nice little kidney shot. The guy I learned this from would then reverse from this and come right back on his opponent with the identical wrist lock throw, but the opponent was turned so that he couldn't step out and push out of it. I don't know how he made the transition to the lock, he was one of those 'see how great my system is' not one of the 'this is how to do this' types, and I was on the wrong side of the room to see the transition. As for the sub level four stuff I have seen a bit of it and I feel that it is basically blending the principals of Prof. Wally Jay's small circle jujitsu into the kenpo. I highly recommend his tapes. I hope I don't sound like an arrogant knowitall jerk. I definantly don't knowitall. Gary *



Sir, where did you see SubLevel Four and whom was demonstrating it?


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## GaryM (Jan 20, 2003)

Johnny Rodrigues' studio in Salt Lake and It was Mr Jeff Speakman doing the demo.


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## Doc (Jan 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by GaryM _
> *Johnny Rodrigues' studio in Salt Lake and It was Mr Jeff Speakman doing the demo. *


Jeff Speakman is not qualified to speak or  demonstrate an understanding of SubLevel Four Kenpo.


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## GaryM (Jan 20, 2003)

Hi again. Ok, if you say that Mr. Speakman is not qualified to teach the sub level four I won't argue, its not my affair. I made a rather sweeping statement I suppose reguarding the sub level 4 so let me stick my foot in my mouth even further if you will.  I have been incorporating the small circle principals into my Kenpo , I feel that it is ideal for the Kenpo because it is basically grappling that places the opponent on the ground and controls him without you going to the ground. Of course there is much more to it than that, it really explains the locking and the 'feel' or flow. I am also incorporating the principals of Dim Mak into the Kenpo. They are already there for the most part, but Earl Montagues material certainly gives a deeper understanding to the art. So what am I missing? Please give me an example of a sub level four technique ,  or principal, or just an insite that will make me go 'Oh Wow, I never realized that before! I don't want to be confrontational in the slightest. If you really have something that is so new and different I darn sure want to know more about it. If it is basically contained in the material I mentioned then cool, I'm on the right track! By the way it is said that it takes three lifetimes to learn the Dim Mak but I'm a quick learner and I think I can learn it in two. (ok maybe two and a half) Gary


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## Doc (Jan 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by GaryM _
> *Hi again. Ok, if you say that Mr. Speakman is not qualified to teach the sub level four I won't argue, its not my affair. I made a rather sweeping statement I suppose reguarding the sub level 4 so let me stick my foot in my mouth even further if you will.  I have been incorporating the small circle principals into my Kenpo , I feel that it is ideal for the Kenpo because it is basically grappling that places the opponent on the ground and controls him without you going to the ground. Of course there is much more to it than that, it really explains the locking and the 'feel' or flow. I am also incorporating the principals of Dim Mak into the Kenpo. They are already there for the most part, but Earl Montagues material certainly gives a deeper understanding to the art. So what am I missing? Please give me an example of a sub level four technique ,  or principal, or just an insite that will make me go 'Oh Wow, I never realized that before! I don't want to be confrontational in the slightest. If you really have something that is so new and different I darn sure want to know more about it. If it is basically contained in the material I mentioned then cool, I'm on the right track! By the way it is said that it takes three lifetimes to learn the Dim Mak but I'm a quick learner and I think I can learn it in two. (ok maybe two and a half) Gary *



Earls stuff is intellectually correct and quite technically informative, but when in comes to actual application, that's a different story because information is omitted or unknown by him. SL-4  has specific "Kenpo parameters" dictated by Ed Parker to me that does not conform to any other art. 

As an example most of the Small Circle Jiu-jitsu techniques from Wally Jay follow a basic tenant of most jiu-jitsu styles, it's pain reliant. Ed Parker dictated "SubLevel Four" use of manipulations and control NOT be dependent on pain for function. If pain is the only thing controlling your opponent, than the technique ultimately will fail.

As far as "nerve activations" I have never seen anyone speak in terms of "Negative/Positive Body Posture that is paramount in my own study from the old Chinese and Ed Parker. 

Nor do they take into consideration that all the charts and graphs that map meridians and cavities are designed from a supine position and "healing" perspective. Cavities move, shift, open and close depending on many factors. A martial or combat perspective changes and requires a completely different interpretation.

Structural Integrity is also at the root of all movement and the methodologies that create it or destroy it in SubLevel Four.

Those who have come to see me find some interesting perspepctives to information they felt they already knew.

You are doing what most do. You are seeking to "fill holes" or gaps in your Kenpo through exploration of other material. A commendable mindset I must say, but all the examples you gave are physically superficial. SubLevel Four is much more than that and is not a physical description but is an inclusive process of study. You cannot add something to flawed material, you must build solid from the beginning if you expect long term gains and to reach the highest level. Your statement regarding "adding" something to your kenpo tells the tale.

That being said I am sure you're doing the best you can, and hopeffully being effective. If you are than that's all that matters. But yes there is much, much, much more.


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## GaryM (Jan 20, 2003)

Now you have me interested! Do you have any literature or tapes available? Or do you have any plans on doing a seminar somewhere near me anytime? I live in Salt Lake and unless I become independently wealthy lessons or travel is out of the question. Thanks , Gary


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## Doc (Jan 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by GaryM _
> *Now you have me interested! Do you have any literature or tapes available? Or do you have any plans on doing a seminar somewhere near me anytime? I live in Salt Lake and unless I become independently wealthy lessons or travel is out of the question. Thanks , Gary *



What is your American Kenpo lineage.


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## jfarnsworth (Jan 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *What is your American Kenpo lineage. *



Dr. Chapel. I was wondering if you were going to be in Columbus any time this year?


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## Doc (Jan 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *Dr. Chapel. I was wondering if you were going to be in Columbus any time this year? *



I have no plans in the works for Ohio or Utah this year as of now. It would be nice to return to both. The last time I was there I was well received. 

I'm so crazy (according to Rainman), they don't invite me to camps anymore. Students come away with too many questions that their instructors don't/won't  address.

One of my outreach guys is Andrew King in Columbus.  advancedkenpo@yahoo.com


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## GaryM (Jan 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *What is your American Kenpo lineage. *


 My instructor is Sammy Torres, he was taught by Johnny Rodrigues, who was taught by Tony Martines Sr. who was taught by Dale Pettit and Mills Crenshaw who were taught by Mr Parker. Sammy was full contact PKA before he studied Kenpo and 'retired' Charlie Uliberry who was going to come out of retirement but decided against it when he lost an exhibition to Sammy when Sam was only a brown belt. Sammy was trained in full contact by the Galegos bros.  He is my son in law and we lived together for 5 years. Oh by the way I noticed that my profile says I'm a white belt. Didn't mean to decieve anyone I thought I filled in the right blanks, guess not. I'm 2nd black. Note of interest I believe that Mr. Parker died on returning from promoting Tony Martines to 5th black. Gary


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## Doc (Jan 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by GaryM _
> *My instructor is Sammy Torres, he was taught by Johnny Rodrigues, who was taught by Tony Martines Sr. who was taught by Dale Pettit and Mills Crenshaw who were taught by Mr Parker. Sammy was full contact PKA before he studied Kenpo and 'retired' Charlie Uliberry who was going to come out of retirement but decided against it when he lost an exhibition to Sammy when Sam was only a brown belt. Sammy was trained in full contact by the Galegos bros.  He is my son in law and we lived together for 5 years. Oh by the way I noticed that my profile says I'm a white belt. Didn't mean to decieve anyone I thought I filled in the right blanks, guess not. I'm 2nd black. Note of interest I believe that Mr. Parker died on returning from promoting Tony Martines to 5th black. Gary *


 
Your profile says 2nd black. Sounds like an interesting lineage. Mills Crenshaw is a name I haven't seen in a while.


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## jfarnsworth (Jan 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *I have no plans in the works for Ohio or Utah this year as of now. It would be nice to return to both. The last time I was there I was well received.
> 
> One of my outreach guys is Andrew King in Columbus.  advancedkenpo@yahoo.com *



It was my loss that when you were in Columbus that I had conflicting events and couldn't make it. There were a few of the people from the studio that went and had said it was a great seminar you put on as well as they would return when you were back in town.


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## Doc (Jan 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *It was my loss that when you were in Columbus that I had conflicting events and couldn't make it. There were a few of the people from the studio that went and had said it was a great seminar you put on as well as they would return when you were back in town. *



Nope! My loss anytime I miss the opportunity to talk and physically interact with someone who is seeking honest answers to honest questions.


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## cdhall (Jan 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *Nope! My loss anytime I miss the opportunity to talk and physically interact with someone who is seeking honest answers to honest questions. *



Doc,

You need to throw a camp somewhere.
Since people are hesitant to have you come out, but you have a few people in every state trying to get to you, you should throw your own camp or seminar.

I think you should consider trying to have a seminar one weekend at your studio (like the Alamo Kenpo Clinic) or at a hotel in your area.

Then we wouldn't have to find a way to get you out to 8 cities in a year.

Have you thought of this?  The Alamo Clinic looks like a good idea in that it is held at their school.  I'm looking forward to going.

Just a thought.  Set something up.  Tell the world.  See if you build it, will they come?  I think it might help if you find some weekend where a large "tourist" event is happening and have your seminar that weekend.  

I can't think of a good example, but Saturday/Saturday night in San Diego before the Superbowl for example.  How many kenpo people are going to the Superbowl?  Would 50-100 of them get there a day early for a seminar with you?  This is an extreme example, but I think I made my point.  

Tell us what you think.


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## ikenpo (Jan 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *Doc,
> 
> You need to throw a camp somewhere.
> ...



Doug,

Let me tell you why this won't happen. Or why I believe this won't happen. Doc's program is based on an "university" model. I don't think he has any interest in making the transition to the "camp" model (at this point). It is fine to bring him down, in that case the EPI isn't sponsoring the program, so there isn't any implied proficiency transmitted during their presentation of information. When he teaches to "others" it is much like a thesis presentation that he is defending. He'll give you as much as he thinks your ready for, and then a little more. My personal suggestion would be to call him up or email him and ask if you may come down for a long weekend and train with him. You'll learn a lot more one on one and he might even take you to Universal Studios to catch a bench and "watch the sights" or have you eat at a Chinese takeout place he and SGM used to hit up. When folks read this their immediate though will be, "OMG, how much is that gonna cost?", that just means you don't know Doc. 

That is my very personal opinion. 

jb:asian:


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## cdhall (Jan 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _
> *...he might even take you to Universal Studios to catch a bench and "watch the sights" or have you eat at a Chinese takeout place he and SGM used to hit up...*



That would be Cool!
Right after I win the lottery, my plans including going to Pasadena for a month or two to visit Mr. White, Trejo, Chapel, Hawkins, etc for a week each so rest assured I would look forward to this.
:boing1:


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## Kirk (Jan 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *That would be Cool!
> Right after I win the lottery, my plans including going to Pasadena for a month or two to visit Mr. White, Trejo, Chapel, Hawkins, etc for a week each so rest assured I would look forward to this.
> :boing1: *



LOL, same here.  If I hit the lottery I will make my pilgrimage to
"Kenpo Mecca".  Via Arizona to visit the Golden Dragon, of course.


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## jfarnsworth (Jan 21, 2003)

I just want to get off of the east coast!! I'm tired of being in the snow belt and snow. It was -4 here the other day. BRRRRRR.:shrug:


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## Kirk (Jan 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *I just want to get off of the east coast!! I'm tired of being in the snow belt and snow. It was -4 here the other day. BRRRRRR.:shrug: *



Well, c'mon down!  You m ight miss that snow come August.


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## cdhall (Jan 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *Well, c'mon down!  You m ight miss that snow come August. *



Or even February for that matter.
:rofl:


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## jfarnsworth (Jan 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *Or even February for that matter.
> :rofl: *



If I were to ever see another (1) snowflake in my life it would be way too soon. I would never miss the snow or cold weather. Unfortunately for me tomorrow it is supposed to be (with windchill) -25 in the morning. It's already 4 and only 7:30 at night.  Anyway back to the topic at hand before the Mods. get me. :rofl:


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## Doc (Jan 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *Doc,
> 
> You need to throw a camp somewhere.
> ...



It's a thought. I'll be around for the week before Franks tourny. Maybe someone will call.


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## Doc (Jan 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *If I were to ever see another (1) snowflake in my life it would be way too soon. I would never miss the snow or cold weather. Unfortunately for me tomorrow it is supposed to be (with windchill) -25 in the morning. It's already 4 and only 7:30 at night.  Anyway back to the topic at hand before the Mods. get me. :rofl: *


Wow, and it was 80 yesterday here. Most here don't even own a heavy coat. That makes you "weather challenged?"


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## Seig (Jan 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *Wow, and it was 80 yesterday here. Most here don't even own a heavy coat. That makes you "weather challenged?" *


:2xbird:


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## jfarnsworth (Jan 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> *:2xbird: *




:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


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## cdhall (Jan 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *It's a thought. I'll be around for the week before Franks tourny. Maybe someone will call. *



Unfortunately, I can't go again this year.
Perhaps next year.

But there is a chance I'll get out to California after February.  I'll be sure to give you a head's up notice when I know for myself.
Thanks.


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