# BJJ in the street ?



## legend29 (Feb 22, 2004)

First off I have no desire to fight in the ring at all, but love to train for self defense purposes. Now I currently take OJKD and feel it is a more than capable art in the streets as far as stand up fighting goes, and some grappling. Now I don't want to go to the ground but if I have no other choice, I figure I better be confident there. So my question is, is BJJ effective in the street ? You have no Gi's or anything ( I know you'll have regular clothes ) to grab a hold of but are all the moves appliable in the street ? 

Also does BJJ have any stand up fighting at all, or is everything geared to taking your opponent down on the ground, or are the stand up techniques strictly for getting them on the ground ?


----------



## MJS (Feb 23, 2004)

legend29 said:
			
		

> First off I have no desire to fight in the ring at all, but love to train for self defense purposes. Now I currently take OJKD and feel it is a more than capable art in the streets as far as stand up fighting goes, and some grappling. Now I don't want to go to the ground but if I have no other choice, I figure I better be confident there. So my question is, is BJJ effective in the street ? You have no Gi's or anything ( I know you'll have regular clothes ) to grab a hold of but are all the moves appliable in the street ?
> 
> Also does BJJ have any stand up fighting at all, or is everything geared to taking your opponent down on the ground, or are the stand up techniques strictly for getting them on the ground ?



The first thing that you're going to hear from just about everybody, is no, it probably wont work.  I have to disagree with that.  Sure, against mult. attackers, rolling is the worst thing you could do, but if you dont have the skills to help you to get back to your feet, what good is that stand up art that you're taking?  The next thing you'll hear is, what about the nails, broken glass, etc.  Ok, sure, that is something to worry about.  But to think that you'll walk away from anything without a cut, bump or scratch, is crazy.  I'd rather get cut by a little piece of glass and live to tell about it, than get stomped because I didnt have any experience on the ground.

Ok, now to answer your questions.  Many of the techs. that use a Gi, can be applied to a jacket, tshirt, etc.  You may have to make a small adjustment, but they still work.

As for the stand up techs.  Yes, there are stand up techs in BJJ.  While they may not be the best, they do have SD techs in the system.  But then again, it does not have to be something fancy to work right!  Many of the BJJ guys have added more punching and kicking to the system to make them more well rounded.  The funny thing here is that they seem to realize the need for punching and kicking, therefore they add it.  Why is it sooo hard for the stand up guys to add a little BJJ to their material???

Mike


----------



## legend29 (Feb 23, 2004)

I feel you have to have both, stand up and ground fighting in your skills. In a real fight I don't want to go to the ground at all, but if I'm taking there by someone some how, then I want to be more than capable to end the fight there.

 People say if you get in a fight most of the time you end up on the ground, my reply to this use to always be, " Not if you're good you don't " boy was I wrong. Even if you're the best stand up guy in the world, things can happen. You could be tackled from behind or trip or anything. This is why I want to be able to go both ways. Plus in a stand up fight, the person always has the option of running( which is a good thing, because I don't like fighting any way ) but if you're taking to the ground somehow, there at your mercy.

    Richie

P.S. What about, what can I expect in about six months of trial in BJJ, before i decide to go all the way.


----------



## MJS (Feb 24, 2004)

legend29 said:
			
		

> I feel you have to have both, stand up and ground fighting in your skills. In a real fight I don't want to go to the ground at all, but if I'm taking there by someone some how, then I want to be more than capable to end the fight there.



I agree 100%!  Being well rounded in all ranges is, IMO, the best way to go!  



> People say if you get in a fight most of the time you end up on the ground, my reply to this use to always be, " Not if you're good you don't " boy was I wrong. Even if you're the best stand up guy in the world, things can happen. You could be tackled from behind or trip or anything. This is why I want to be able to go both ways. Plus in a stand up fight, the person always has the option of running( which is a good thing, because I don't like fighting any way ) but if you're taking to the ground somehow, there at your mercy.



You're right on that too. I hear the same thing all the time.  My response is, "How can you predict what will happen during the fight?"  You cant!!!



> P.S. What about, what can I expect in about six months of trial in BJJ, before i decide to go all the way.



What can you expect?  Every school is different, but I can tell you what I learned.  I started off with some of the basic positions....the mount, side mount, guard, etc.  Getting familiar with those FIRST is by far the most important thing.  You can learn 100 submissions, but if you  cant hold the position and apply the tech. what good is it???  

Being able to transition from one position to the next is also important.  After I got a good feeling with that, I then moved on to the submissions, chokes, etc.  

Again, I cant speak for every BJJ school, so the above is only from my personal experience.  I hope that it was a help.  Feel free to keep the questions coming!!!!

Mike


----------



## legend29 (Feb 24, 2004)

Well, I had my first practice last night. I enjoyed it, but I do have some questions before I decide to join. We started the class off learning a type of sweep, we worked that for awhile and then we rolled for the rest of the class.  Now granted I'm not a member of the class yet, because it was just a trial class, so my question is this.

1) Is this how most classes are structured ?  For example, since I had never had no prior training in any type of grappling I thought I'd be shown a few basic things first, but instead I just done as they did. Now maybe it was because i haven't officially joined yet, or because no one new I was a complete beginner.

2) Should i wait and see if there is a set curriculam, or should i approach the instructor and ask to learn some basics ?

I drive an hour to this class, and i desperately want to learn if it is going to help me in a real situation. Thanks for your time, I appreciate it.


----------



## MJS (Feb 24, 2004)

legend29 said:
			
		

> Well, I had my first practice last night. I enjoyed it, but I do have some questions before I decide to join. We started the class off learning a type of sweep, we worked that for awhile and then we rolled for the rest of the class.  Now granted I'm not a member of the class yet, because it was just a trial class, so my question is this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## FunSPE (Mar 10, 2004)

Hi there.  First let me say that BJJ is a very good self defense system for a variety of reasons.  One of the few times that I have ever had to use what I know; I had to rely upon my BJJ training and everything worked out ok.  In my opinion, being well rounded is an essential part of self defense.  As far as your questions...

1) Is this how most classes are structured ? For example, since I had never had no prior training in any type of grappling I thought I'd be shown a few basic things first, but instead I just done as they did. Now maybe it was because i haven't officially joined yet, or because no one new I was a complete beginner. 

Honestly it depends on the school.  Some schools offer beginner classes, some don't.  Some BJJ schools let you just jump right on in, others might take newbies aside and teach them some basics like Mount Escape and maybe a submission or two.  Typically, we dont let brand new students roll for their first class or two.  Me personally, I like showing basic techniques when we have new people that way we dont overwhelm them with advanced moves.  

2) Should i wait and see if there is a set curriculam, or should i approach the instructor and ask to learn some basics ? 

Unlike most martial arts, there really isnt a "set" curriculum for rank requirements in BJJ.  Now, with that said, there are a core group of techniques that everyone should know once you start to approach blue belt.  Also, some instructors do have certain teqchniques that they would like to see as you progress.  I guess this is what you are asking for.   Go ahead and speak to the instructor and let him or her know that you really want to work on learning your basics.  

Like anything, BJJ does take time to learn especially if you dont come from a grappling background.  But believe me, after 6 years of training in it, it has been beyond worth it.  

RDS


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Mar 20, 2004)

legend29 said:
			
		

> Well, I had my first practice last night. I enjoyed it, but I do have some questions before I decide to join. We started the class off learning a type of sweep, we worked that for awhile and then we rolled for the rest of the class. Now granted I'm not a member of the class yet, because it was just a trial class, so my question is this.
> 
> 1) Is this how most classes are structured ? For example, since I had never had no prior training in any type of grappling I thought I'd be shown a few basic things first, but instead I just done as they did. Now maybe it was because i haven't officially joined yet, or because no one new I was a complete beginner.
> 
> ...


Dude, I'd been in MA for my entire life, and my training included JKD modified kickboxing.  A friend of mine took the Gracie Challenge when they were first opened in Torrance, and lost horribly. We both joined, and it (BJJ) is literally -- imho -- the missing link in the martial arts. I had to drive 1-2 hours in traffic to get from south OC to Torrance till some of Ricksons students opened a club down near me, and would do it all over again.

Starting BJJ ios always a little wierd...it isn;t structured the way other forms of MA are, with forms or such you learn for testing out of or into a a rank.  It's skill-based, and you have to start somewhere. Each class will introduce you to something new (a position, submission, transition, etc.), and subsequent classes should teach counters, then counters to the counters, and so on, expanding your vocabulary of moves.  The rolling after being taught a couple moves is mostly normal; it's skill based. If you're with some good (read: Nice) guys, classmates who know you're new will put you in position to do the sweep, then make you work progressively harder to pull it off while giving you tips on how to clean it up.  Can't learn to swim if you don't jump in the water.

As for self-defense potential? BJJ has saved my butt many times. If people tell me they just want to learn how to defend themselves without putting a lot of time into MA, I tell them to go to a boxing gym for a year, then a BJJ school for a year.


----------



## CrushingFist (May 14, 2004)

How can BJJ actually work in a street-fight?


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (May 14, 2004)

CrushingFist said:
			
		

> How can BJJ actually work in a street-fight?


That's probably where it is used most often.  The verb, to "Gracie" someone = pull them to the ground, sit on their chest and punch them in the head till they get sick of struggling fruitlessly, and turn to their stomachs...at which point you rear-naked choke 'em with hooks in.

Better question might be: How can it NOT work in a street fight?

D.


----------



## CrushingFist (May 14, 2004)

Oh Yea? 

Somebody comes from behin and fu*ks the **** out of you thinking you were hurting that person? If you were standing you can most likely notice somebody else or something. Or Run


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (May 14, 2004)

CrushingFist said:
			
		

> Oh Yea?
> 
> Somebody comes from behin and fu*ks the **** out of you thinking you were hurting that person? If you were standing you can most likely notice somebody else or something. Or Run


Spoken like a true gentleman with a mind towards learning and development.  If you're only posting to hear yourself speak and pick a spat, chances are you're likely to find yourself in the very situation you've just described.

D.


----------



## MJS (May 15, 2004)

CrushingFist said:
			
		

> Oh Yea?
> 
> Somebody comes from behin and fu*ks the **** out of you thinking you were hurting that person? If you were standing you can most likely notice somebody else or something. Or Run



What are you talking about here???  IMO, I think that you need to get a little more education on BJJ.

Mike


----------



## MJS (May 15, 2004)

CrushingFist said:
			
		

> How can BJJ actually work in a street-fight?



It will teach you the skills to survive on the ground if you find yourself there.

It will teach you how to get back to your feet in a safe way.

Many of the locks and chokes can be applied standing.

It will teach you about the clinch, which is one of the ranges of fighting.

It teaches you SD techs. against attacks such as a wrist grab, shirt grab, etc.

It allows you to submit the person, without having to always rely on a kick to the groin, eye jab, etc....strikes that are not always warranted for a situation.

Did that answer your question???

Mike


----------



## CrushingFist (May 15, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> It will teach you the skills to survive on the ground if you find yourself there.
> 
> It will teach you how to get back to your feet in a safe way.
> 
> ...



Yes Thanks


----------



## MJS (May 15, 2004)

CrushingFist said:
			
		

> Yes Thanks



You're welcome. :asian: 

Mike


----------



## CrushingFist (May 15, 2004)

So what else BJJ practitioners should be concern while encounting a problem in the streets?


----------



## MJS (May 15, 2004)

CrushingFist said:
			
		

> So what else BJJ practitioners should be concern while encounting a problem in the streets?



Mult. attackers for one.  However, you'll hear everybody say that against more than 1 person, BJJ is useless.. Not true.  On the ground yes, but if they can grab 1 attacker, use him as a shield, while at the same time, pounding the guy they have, they'll stand a much better chance.  They do have defenses against weapons, although they are not the greatest.  

Mike


----------



## CrushingFist (May 15, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> Mult. attackers for one.  However, you'll hear everybody say that against more than 1 person, BJJ is useless.. Not true.  On the ground yes, but if they can grab 1 attacker, use him as a shield, while at the same time, pounding the guy they have, they'll stand a much better chance.  They do have defenses against weapons, although they are not the greatest.
> 
> Mike



How about 1 kick to the face to 1, and the other some combo's if BJJ could teach some of those useful striking.


----------



## gusano (May 28, 2004)

BJJ is the best martial art in the world for street defense. Taking the fight to the ground does not mean being the guy on the bottom or on your back. The BJJ practitioner can finish the fight from multiple positions. As for multiple attackers, I say that WHOEVER you are, WHATEVER your style, if you have multiple attackers you do not want to go to the ground BUT how can the strikers who are not even able to defend takedowns against a *SINGLE* man expect to remain standing against multiple opponents. This is not the movies. Against multiple attacker you are better off trying to escape or you will more than likely get stomped reagrdless of your syle of martial art. The Garcie challenge still exists to this day. Anyone in the world is welcome to test their skill against BJJ, just by showing up at the academy in Rio. They will give you someone to fight.


----------



## MJS (May 28, 2004)

gusano said:
			
		

> BJJ is the best martial art in the world for street defense. Taking the fight to the ground does not mean being the guy on the bottom or on your back. The BJJ practitioner can finish the fight from multiple positions. As for multiple attackers, I say that WHOEVER you are, WHATEVER your style, if you have multiple attackers you do not want to go to the ground BUT how can the strikers who are not even able to defend takedowns against a *SINGLE* man expect to remain standing against multiple opponents. This is not the movies. Against multiple attacker you are better off trying to escape or you will more than likely get stomped reagrdless of your syle of martial art.



Very good points!  I've said the same in the past.  Just because one studies a stand up art, does NOT mean that they have the market cornered on mult. attackers.  You're right, it ISNT the movies, and unless its something that you practice on a reg. basis, its going to be pretty damn hard to do!!

 {quote]The Garcie challenge still exists to this day. Anyone in the world is welcome to test their skill against BJJ, just by showing up at the academy in Rio. They will give you someone to fight.[/QUOTE]

Another good point!!  Again, I've suggested that to people who always seem to doubt BJJ, but you know what the funny thing is? I never get a response to that!  Gee, I wonder why??

Mike


----------



## CrushingFist (May 28, 2004)

Very nice said...


----------



## arnisador (May 28, 2004)

My BJJ classes are structured much as you describe--some instruction/practice, followed by some rolling. Often the rolling is done starting from a certain position, and sometimes with restrictions as problem-solving sessions--e.g., in the guard, top person is only to hold position, not pass, while bottom person tries to submit with chokes/armbars/sweeps.

As to curriculum, see:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=787


----------



## Littledragon (Jun 25, 2004)

legend29 said:
			
		

> First off I have no desire to fight in the ring at all, but love to train for self defense purposes. Now I currently take OJKD and feel it is a more than capable art in the streets as far as stand up fighting goes, and some grappling. Now I don't want to go to the ground but if I have no other choice, I figure I better be confident there. So my question is, is BJJ effective in the street ? You have no Gi's or anything ( I know you'll have regular clothes ) to grab a hold of but are all the moves appliable in the street ?
> 
> Also does BJJ have any stand up fighting at all, or is everything geared to taking your opponent down on the ground, or are the stand up techniques strictly for getting them on the ground ?


 
Yes once on the ground BJJ will work. In a street self defense situation I will be a multi dimensional fighter. Using my kicks to the legs and groin to close in then get the opponent on the ground. BJJ is very affective because 95% of street fights end up on the ground and BJJ imo is the most effective grappling combatant I feel it is a great self defense art for any street situation. I still think you need to know how to kick in order to close the distance to the opponenet to take him to the ground. If kinves and bats are involved I would use kicks and Aikido movements. You have to adapt to the situation don't let the art adapt if for you. Any martial art can be effective for self defense all depending on what the situation is. Some martial art might be too traditional and might not work as effectivley but I all depends on the person, the martial artist himself not necessarily the art.


----------



## Littledragon (Jun 25, 2004)

gusano said:
			
		

> BJJ is the best martial art in the world for street defense. Taking the fight to the ground does not mean being the guy on the bottom or on your back. The BJJ practitioner can finish the fight from multiple positions. As for multiple attackers, I say that WHOEVER you are, WHATEVER your style, if you have multiple attackers you do not want to go to the ground BUT how can the strikers who are not even able to defend takedowns against a *SINGLE* man expect to remain standing against multiple opponents. This is not the movies. Against multiple attacker you are better off trying to escape or you will more than likely get stomped reagrdless of your syle of martial art. The Garcie challenge still exists to this day. Anyone in the world is welcome to test their skill against BJJ, just by showing up at the academy in Rio. They will give you someone to fight.


 
BJJ is the best martial art in the world for street defense. 

Don't be too confident about that.  No one martial art is superior over another, it is the fighter the man himself who is the superior one. BJJ is very effective, I study BJJ and will be studying with Rickson in a couple weeks but remember there are more tecniques to self defense than just grappling. If I can use kicks punches grappling and join locks and combind them all in a street situation than that is the best. With just one style you are limited to a predominant focus and specialty, if you are multi dimentional you are not restricted to just lets say the grappling techniques of Jiu-Jitsu. I am just 16 years old and have been doing martial arts for 11 years but my advice, In a street situation I use EVERYTHING, I will never limit my self to one style because a street fight is everything goes.


----------



## Jissen (Jun 26, 2004)

About BJJ and SD: http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/blackbelt/1998/jan98/fail.html

And about gi or no gi: many of us live in areas where people wear coats/jackets up to 10 months of the year. And training with gi makes you learn how to stop the opponent from using your clothing against you, something submission wrestling (no gi grappling that is) won't teach you.


----------



## DuckofDeath (Jun 26, 2004)

Jissen said:
			
		

> And about gi or no gi: many of us live in areas where people wear coats/jackets up to 10 months of the year. And training with gi makes you learn how to stop the opponent from using your clothing against you, something submission wrestling (no gi grappling that is) won't teach you.



I agree.  And the mugger, bully, or aggressive drunk who accosts you is more likely to be attired in shirt (and maybe jacket as well), belt, and trousers instead of just Tapout shorts.


----------



## Littledragon (Jun 26, 2004)

Jissen said:
			
		

> About BJJ and SD: http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/blackbelt/1998/jan98/fail.html
> 
> And about gi or no gi: many of us live in areas where people wear coats/jackets up to 10 months of the year. And training with gi makes you learn how to stop the opponent from using your clothing against you, something submission wrestling (no gi grappling that is) won't teach you.


Welcome to the site. Yes thats a very true and good obsrvation. While using BJJ in the street you can easily control your opponent like you practice with the gi if they are wearing multiple layers of clothes like a heavy jacket. If they are shirtless BJJ still teaches you the techniques to sucesfully immobiliaze your opponent to the ground quickly to end the fight.


----------



## hardheadjarhead (Jun 28, 2004)

When dealing with multiple attackers, I suppose there is some validity to any ground art...BJJ or not.  But one thing we don't take into account is to how _quickly_ a talented grappler can whip an arm/shoulder/leg lock or choke on a guy...and then move on to the next evil-doer.  I love that term...evil-doer..

I personally know a man who was mugged by three freaks as he was coming out of his liquor store.  A BJJ adept (World class as a brown belt) he threw one...and the guy hit hard, knocking him out.  He applied a cross lapel choke on the second (it was winter, there was a jacket) and the force of the application caught the guy's jaw and dislocated it...BADLY.  I guess the tip of his jaw was pointing at nearly right angles.  The guy fainted.  The third guy decided discretion was the better part of valor, and he fled.  BTW...the attack opened up with them hitting him with a board, breaking a rib in his upper back. Ain't adrenalin a wonderful thing?

I point out that this story is anecdotal.  It does not contribute to hard data as to whether grappling works on the modern battlefield.  I  point to it to illustrate how it might come down were it to.

I encourage (and eventually require) my students to study grappling so they know their limitations.  I think its a necessary skill for self defense, and a wonderful set of tools for your bags of tricks as a stand up fighter.


Regards,


Steve


----------



## Littledragon (Jun 28, 2004)

hardheadjarhead said:
			
		

> When dealing with multiple attackers, I suppose there is some validity to any ground art...BJJ or not. But one thing we don't take into account is to how _quickly_ a talented grappler can whip an arm/shoulder/leg lock or choke on a guy...and then move on to the next evil-doer. I love that term...evil-doer..
> 
> I personally know a man who was mugged by three freaks as he was coming out of his liquor store. A BJJ adept (World class as a brown belt) he threw one...and the guy hit hard, knocking him out. He applied a cross lapel choke on the second (it was winter, there was a jacket) and the force of the application caught the guy's jaw and dislocated it...BADLY. I guess the tip of his jaw was pointing at nearly right angles. The guy fainted. The third guy decided discretion was the better part of valor, and he fled. BTW...the attack opened up with them hitting him with a board, breaking a rib in his upper back. Ain't adrenalin a wonderful thing?
> 
> ...


Very well said, I absolutly agree with you!


----------



## hardheadjarhead (Jun 28, 2004)

Littledragon said:
			
		

> Very well said, I absolutly agree with you!




I note, Little Dragon, that you have a similar background to mine.  Its refreshing to see another Tae Kwon Do person getting into other areas.


Regards,


Steve


----------



## gusano (Jun 28, 2004)

Littledragon said:
			
		

> BJJ is the best martial art in the world for street defense.
> 
> Don't be too confident about that.  No one martial art is superior over another, it is the fighter the man himself who is the superior one. .


The martial art elevates the man. It is the art that brings out the potential in the man. If you train B.S., you will be beaten by a "lesser" man who is trained in something that actually works. This does NOT mean that just because you train BJJ you can beat up ANYONE who doesn't. There are many variables involved in determining the outcome of a fight. 



			
				Littledragon said:
			
		

> BJJ is very effective, I study BJJ and will be studying with Rickson in a couple weeks....


If Rickson had studied TKD instead of BJJ would he be the same fighter? Rickson is the fighter he is BECAUSE of jiu-jitsu, don't be confused about that! If you don't believe me then ask him yourself when you see him.



			
				Littledragon said:
			
		

> but remember there are more tecniques to self defense than just grappling. If I can use kicks punches grappling and join locks and combind them all in a street situation than that is the best....


You just described BJJ!


----------



## hardheadjarhead (Jun 28, 2004)

Anytime I hear _anybody_ say a particular art is "the best in the world" for self defense (or whatever), alarm bells go off.

Insofar as BJJ, I'd say no, it isn't.  I know of schools that practice sport jujitsu only, go to tournaments (Vale Tudo included, perhaps) and that's it.  They train no appreciable self defense against mass attack, knives, guns at close range, impact weapons or any other variation of weapon out there that perps carry.  They don't necessarily realistically deal with issues of rape, the nature or psychology of the rapist, or his tactics. Their focus is winning the next tournament.

Now granted, YOUR school may address all these issues.  If so, great.  But many do not.

To be fair, the same criticisms leveled above can be directed at probably every other martial art out there.  

Know this:  There is no objective yardstick where you can measure an art's worth on the street compared to other arts.  At best we have anecdotes like the one I provided.  Happily, that guy's BJJ prevailed.  A Kenpo man might have done as well with his techniques.  Bottom line, there aren't enough anecdotes to compile significant data.

Now we've all seen the "Gracies In Action" volumes, and might try to use that as an indication that it works in self defense.  Those fights were duels...and there is a difference.

Train your art and be good at it.  See what weaknesses it has (and I don't care what style it is...it has 'em) and be content.  

But when you start saying a style is "the best"...particularly in this forum...it will call attention to your post.  If you like to debate, this too is okay.


Regards,



Steve


----------



## TonyU (Jun 29, 2004)

hardheadjarhead said:
			
		

> Train your art and be good at it. See what weaknesses it has (and I don't care what style it is...it has 'em) and be content.
> 
> Amen. By the way are you a former marine?


----------



## hardheadjarhead (Jun 29, 2004)

Yes sir, I am.  The handle gives it away, does it not?


Regards,


Steve


----------



## Littledragon (Jul 1, 2004)

I say BJJ is effective in the street because it can immobilize an opponent so quickly. Closing the distance and choking one out in the ground can end the fight very quickly.

Just a little note, every martial art can be effective in the street again I say this it all depends on the man, the martial art does elevate the man I totally agree on but the man has a bigger impact on how effective the art can be.

Tarek


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jul 1, 2004)

Effectiveness is contextual. As an avid BJJ-er from the early days of it hitting U.S. shores, as well as a lifetime stand-up martial artist who, in his younger, dumber days, went out of his way to participate in confrontations to see what worked...

I have been in both scenarios...using BJJ in the street, choking a guy out while his friends booted me in the head, calling for a change in strategy (variations on this happening 2-3 times, total).  HOWEVER...I have MORE OFTEN gone to the ground, in the streets, quite successfully, on asphalt, cement, wood floors, carpeted rooms...and choked the living snot out of some cheeselog who more than had it coming! (I discovered early on that if I could not justify force prior to engaging, I couldn't remember anything I studied once in the fracas).

I keep reading woulda-coulda-shoulda posts about the liabilities of BJJ in self-defense...that it is sportive only...developed in the context of rules, and therefore inherently deficient...etc.  What, you think BJJ guys throughout Brazil...a country with an alarmingly high violent crime incidence...managed to get through the last 75 years without ever having to fight for their skins? You think Olympic Judo players couldn't drop you on your head so hard, that future aggression ceases to be an option?

"They were feuds"...what context do you suppose most Asian martial arts were developed in? Battlefield tactics?  Hardly...too many unlikely impracticalities buried in form to have come from "tried, tested, and true" arts straight out of border skirmishes or invasion campaigns. The guys who were really good were put at the front of the lines, where odds alone eventually removed them, and their knowledge, from the face of the earth. We get handed down the tips from the guys in the back who either ran, or were lucky enough only to have to finish off the few survivors from the opposite side.

"What if there is more than one guy"...been there, done that, and if you truly ever face more than 1-2 guys, use your head and your feet for getting the heck out of there, and not bunting and kicking. Don't be silly enough to assume that people in multiple opponent situations attack one at a time, on cue, like they do in Bruce Lee movies. Certainly, don't be silly enough to believe that your kung-fu is better than their kung-fu, to the tune of emerging victorious from a 5-on-1 knock-down/drag-out brawl.  On the ground *or* on your feet, if there are enough guys, you will go down (learn to use your arms to cover your temples while tucking your chin hard to protect the throat...everything else is expendable, and can be surgically corrected if a bystander calls 911 in time).

"What if the guy has a knife"...contrary to popular belief, some schools train for this possibility...quite well.  And when all is said and done, it is wiser to run from the knife and charge the gun, anyways. (try stabbing a guy who is running full-tilt in the opposite direction...kinda hard, no? Now, sight the runner down the barrel, and squeeze off a couple-a rounds...easier, no?) I have fought for my life against opponents armed with knives...it is pure chaos; all the technique training in the world will only barely prepare you for the mayhem that fills the air when a decent knife player pulls on you. Typically, count on getting cut (you will shed more blood than he); having accepted that...if running is not an option...try to control for the location of the cuts (distal appendages more than proximal; dorsal surfaces of the forearms more than anterior; opposite for the lower extremities). And, despite your preparations, the outcome will ultimately depend more on luck, then skill. That being said, it does seem true that chance favors the prepared mind. Still, run. Your karate/kung-fu/kickboxing will serve you little better than somebody elses BJJ.  Matter of fact, since BJJ guys spend more hours working on controlling appendages in tight quarters, I would be more likely to put money on the Gracie who takes the knife fighter to the ground, then the standard TKD or Kenpo guys who try to execute some one-steps or self-defense techniques...things get blend-o-matic ugly, fast. If you're lucky, you won't even know he had a knife until it's over...adrenaline can mask a lot of pain and narrow a lot of perception.

Gi...no gi...I've choked out people in ski jackets, pretty ties, and tank tops...it's all good.

Big / Not Big...I've posted on this before, but in a nutshell: In the vein of "I've been rich and I've been poor...rich is better"...I've been small and I've been big...Big is better.  Choking people out is easier with 22-inch guns and a chest then it is with 15 inch arms, and a sunken hole where a chest _should _be.  That having been said...I've had my hind quarters kicked by little guys on the mat.  As a bouncer, though, it was never the big guys I worried about: They were easy, as they would predictably try to use their size and strength against me, and somehow magically manage to conveniently place themselves in my traps. The small guys were unknown quantities: fought harder, came back for more-more often, and were more likely to have some dirty trick up their sleeve you had to watch out for (i.e., one guy always made sure he had one drink in his hands, and an empty glass or bottle in the other...drink to the eyes, followed immediately by a glass to the head...all while aiming a kick to the groin).

BJJ works in the streets, quite well. Granted, I coulda been killed the few times I went to the floor and there was more than one guy. But I also coulda been killed any of the dozens of times I was standing up, and there was more than one guy.

As for elevation? Guys like Rickson are a specimen, and would (and *do*) excel at anything they do. The art may have channeled the genetic propensity to be damned good at anything, but the man himself is a dynamo at anything he's ever attempted...surfing, volleyball, name it. I hated these guys in High School: He could have never seen a pool table in his life, but after watching for an hour to learn the rules, he'll be taking your money by the end of the night.

No, the arts aren't elevated by the phenom's who excel naturally, but by the guys who have to try harder, because they don't have the talent of the others. Funakoshi, Ueshiba, Carlos and Helio all started off as small, weak guys who had to rise to an occasion in order to acquire the top of the mountain. THEY propel the arts, NOT the guys BORN on the mountain.

Salud!

Dave


----------



## hardheadjarhead (Jul 1, 2004)

Dave,

Excellent post, and I agree self defense is contextual.  But I disagree with some other points you made.

You didn't reference to whom you responding, but I think you were responding in part, at least, to my post.  I'll clarify some things I brought up.

I didn't use the term "feud", I used the term "duel".  By that I meant that on the "Gracie Jujitsu in Action Series" we find either a Vale Tudo match, or the "settling of an issue" type scenario wherin two guys get into it over who knows what (fill in the blank--insult, woman, money loaned?).  In these we do not see one of the antagonists...not once...pick up an object and throw it, bludgeon with it, or cut with it. In the "gym fight" on those tapes there were some zippy ten pound dumbells along the back wall that would have been perfect for braining the opponent.  Both fighters refrained from this and other crude tactics, as if they were playing according to some sort of gentleman's agreement, a Brazilian version "Marquis of Queensbury" rules.   

In these fights the object was never to kill the other man.  They were not "self defense" altercations, but were battles that were largely brought upon by one person calling another out.  By no legal definition I know of would any of these antagonists be able to use "self defense" as a means of defense in court.  Further, in a self defense situation...a real self defense situation, would we find people coaching and cheering from the sidelines while filiming with a video camera?  Were it "self defense" I would think partisans would step in and settle the issue rather than record it for posterity.

I do not doubt that many Brazilians have had true self defense situations or even arranged fights that have escalated to truly dangerous levels.  I'm confident that BJJ has...and will continue to be...used in actual self defense situations effectively.  

Again, in saying self defense is contextual, we can not assume that the person in need of the self defense is a young, fit, athletic male.  Women, older people, somebody that is disabled also train for self defense.  The "Gracie Jujitsu In Action" series was somewhat deficient in presenting gladiators with these qualities.  I say "gladiators" tongue in cheek, so as to make a point.

You state that some schools train for the possiblility of a blade being introduced.  I never said they didn't, but I do know of schools and clubs that do not realistically train for this eventuality.  Insofar as running from the knife, I agree.  I would do that.  However, if I've slapped somebody into the guard and he pulls it right then...versus before we went to the ground... he's likely to cause some serious damage before I can get up and out of there.  The blade doesn't always appear initially.  Some knifers train specifically that way.  Some knifers, I suspect, might also know how to suck in their elbows.

Your rationale for suggesting a grappler would do better controlling the appendages of a knife wielder is sound.  I agree with you on that.  Those schools that you know of that teach self defense against the blade likely do a good job of it.  Those schools that don't teach it might have a different emotional response on seeing the blade, and for all their skills might find themselves fatally disadvantaged.  See the last three sentences of the preceding paragraph for review of a point.

Your criticisms of TKD schools (or any traditional stand up art) not having a good response against a blade are well founded.  This has been one of my harshest criticisms of TKD in general.  I can't speak for the weaknesses of those arts I've not practiced.  That said, some TKD schools no doubt address the issue, as you've pointed out is done with certain BJJ schools.

Your observations on Rickson are well put. In fact, I agree with much of what you've written in your post...and where I disagree I can at least say you make good arguments in stating your position.

Regards,


Steve


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jul 3, 2004)

Steve:

Thanks for your reply.  I didn't actually aim my remarks towards you, so if they seemed a bit aggressive, I do apologize.  I was training with the Gracies in the Torrance academy while they were still taking challenge matches, and on many occasions the subject of mauling came up...that is, critics sayng "what if?" about eye gouging, etc.  On one occasion, Rorion looked the guy square in the eye and said, "you think we don't know how to scratch eyes out too? Maybe in 65 years, you are the only guy to come up with this idea. How much easier will it be to maul you while you are sleeping off a choke?"

The lesson wasn't lost on me, a dyed in the wool kenpo eye scratcher.  Somehow, though, it seems continually lost in the mainstream.

Regards,

Dave


----------



## hardheadjarhead (Jul 4, 2004)

Dave,

I didn't think your post was too agressive at all.  In it, as in this other one, you've made some excellent observations.

Rickson also was quoted in a magazine some time back as saying he'd use a pistol for multiple opponents, and that he's very good with it.   The Gracies are pragmatists, I'll grant them that.

Regards,


Steve


----------



## gusano (Jul 4, 2004)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Rorion looked the guy square in the eye and said, "you think we don't know how to scratch eyes out too? Maybe in 65 years, you are the only guy to come up with this idea. How much easier will it be to maul you while you are sleeping off a choke?"
> 
> The lesson wasn't lost on me, a dyed in the wool kenpo eye scratcher. Somehow, though, it seems continually lost in the mainstream.
> 
> ...


Good quote Dave! People who argue about using eye gouges, bites, groin pulls, etc, seem to forget that it's a two sided coin. The only thing worse than being in the triangle is...being in the triangle, while getting punched in the face and your eyes gouged out! I hate it when that happens.


----------



## Hand Sword (Apr 11, 2006)

I say BJJ is street effective if done with the right mind set, just as any other art. Be careful on the holds, desperation of your opponent will get you a nasty bite, rakings, etc.. Street thugs don't understand tapping out. Treat the fight accordingly! Ground and pound.


----------



## someguy (Apr 22, 2006)

BJJ is fun.  I meet some people around my college and we roll.  I can hold them off for a while even with out any real training for the ground.  If you are going to grab me and roll with me on the street...well your welcome to.  I'm sure my friends would show up before you could finish me.  That said I'm glad I'm picking up a few tricks here and there.  It would help in some situations I'm sure.  Especially if you don't really want restrain a person.


----------



## Hand Sword (Apr 27, 2006)

I wouldn't recommend trying to restrain in the street. Train to Take them out.  :rofl:


----------

