# Modern Arnis and the Blade



## Epa (Jul 27, 2004)

I was wondering exactly how much of Modern Arnis can be transferred to the blade. From what Ive seen of Modern Arnis, its primarily a stick system. Balintawak, Modern Arnis primary influence, was also a stick system as far as I can tell with a lot of emphasis on monitoring the opponents weapon with your alive hand. If Im wrong on the Balintawak please let me know because I havent seen that much. This tactic is common in MA as well, but it does not seem like a solid tactic when dealing with bladed weapons. 

For example, of the twelve basic disarms (the way I learned them) #1, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8 and #12 all have you grab the blade and most of the other disarms have your body come into contact with the blade. There are many other MA techniques Ive seen where you grab the opponents stick and use it to trap or lock him, which is very useful with a stick, but not so much with a blade. Given this element of Arnis, how much of Modern Arnis is really translatable to blade work?

I understand that basic striking, footwork and attributes are always translatable, but these are present in almost every FMA system. So is it as productive to train Arnis with a blade when many of the techniques must be thrown out or modified quite a bit? This is not a slam on Modern Arnis because I think its a good system. Im just not convinced it translates to blade very efficiently. I believe that Remy probably could have pulled off some of those techniques that involve monitoring the blade with the alive hand, but I dont think its realistic to train everyone that way because very few people in the world were as good as Remy was. Let me know what you think.



Respectfully, 

Eric


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## Cruentus (Jul 27, 2004)

Modern Arnis and Balintawak are entirely different. I do them both...Balintawak from Manong Ted Buot and Modern Arnis from the late Professor.

Anyhow, in the seminar format, the translations that were generally taught were Stick and empty hand. This was because Professor saw the blade as a violent tool. So, Professor taught the blade to only a select few for one reason or another.

However, whether you learned blade or not directly from him, this did not matter. What was stressed was that "It is all the same." Conceptually, it is all the same. In Modern Arnis you can pick up almost any weapon and apply it, or you can defend against any weapon using the same concepts. The key is learning the strengths and limitations of the tool. So, if I want to do modern arnis with my tactical folder, I need to learn how my folder opens, how I should carry it, how it cuts, how it grips, and the strengths and limits of the tool. If I am facing a blade, I need to know the same so I know their strenghts and limitations.

Once these tactical differences are fully discovered, however, Modern Arnis concepts of movement can be applied, and your once stick or hand system now becomes a blade system, because you see "HOW" it is all the same.

It also is worth mentioning that Balintawak was not the only influence in creating Modern Arnis. Other styles played significant roles, and it would appear that the Presas family system was a sword and dagger system.

So, Modern Arnis can be an effective blade system. Whether it is or not depends on who your getting your modern arnis from...

PAUL :supcool:


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## Epa (Jul 27, 2004)

So how do you modify the techniques where you grab the stick for blade work? This may be good for a different post, but could you also talk a little bit about the difference between Balintawak and Modern Arnis. I'm curious because I've only seen a tiny piece of Balintawak. Thanks.

Eric


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## Flatlander (Jul 27, 2004)

Try taking the defensive blade translations more out of the emptyhand.  Rather than grab the blade, grab the arm or hand, better yet, destroy the arm or hand.  Use the jointlocking applications, and the disarms just happen.


Sorry, I don't know anything about Balintawak.


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## Flatlander (Jul 27, 2004)

Also, welcome to the Board!


:cheers:


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## MJS (Jul 28, 2004)

Epa said:
			
		

> I was wondering exactly how much of Modern Arnis can be transferred to the blade. From what Ive seen of Modern Arnis, its primarily a stick system. Balintawak, Modern Arnis primary influence, was also a stick system as far as I can tell with a lot of emphasis on monitoring the opponents weapon with your alive hand. If Im wrong on the Balintawak please let me know because I havent seen that much. This tactic is common in MA as well, but it does not seem like a solid tactic when dealing with bladed weapons.



The blade work in Modern Arnis has always been there, though, depending on the instructor, that will determine what or how much of it is shown.  Yes, there are other systems that focus more on the blade than others.



> For example, of the twelve basic disarms (the way I learned them) #1, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8 and #12 all have you grab the blade and most of the other disarms have your body come into contact with the blade. There are many other MA techniques Ive seen where you grab the opponents stick and use it to trap or lock him, which is very useful with a stick, but not so much with a blade. Given this element of Arnis, how much of Modern Arnis is really translatable to blade work?



I havent seen any of those disarms done by grabbing the blade, and if someone is teaching that way, shame on them.  When dealing with the blade or the stick for that matter, modifications have to be made.  When doing a stick disarm with a stick, contact can be made on the stick, or for more realism and in reality, its done on the arm/hand.  Empty handed, your 'stick' is now your empty hand.  Blocking the opps. hand/arm, rather than the stick, is the change that has to be made, unless you want a broken arm!!  I've seen disarms done where the blade is stripped from the opps. hand by using your forearm.  Keep in mind a few things here.  

1- When dealing with a knife, you * will * get cut!!

2- Getting cut on the top of the forearm isnt going to be as bad as a cut on the inside of the arm.

3- It is possible to do the disarm by using the flat of the blade, not the actual cutting edge.

Again, all the disarms, stick and knife, can be done empty hand, but as I said, a mod. will need to be made.



> I understand that basic striking, footwork and attributes are always translatable, but these are present in almost every FMA system. So is it as productive to train Arnis with a blade when many of the techniques must be thrown out or modified quite a bit?




Why wouldnt it be??  Nothing has to be thrown out, but think about it....even in Karate, BJJ, Judo, etc. the odds of that 'text book' technique being done are pretty slim.  The attacker isnt gonna stand there and let you hit them.  Instead they will be moving, therefore, a mod. to what you're doing will need to be done.  I've heard too many times, people say to me when I'm teaching, "Oh wait, you moved the wrong way, and now I cant do that tech.  Start over again." Now, do you think that is realistic for the street?? Of course not, so that is why a mod. will need to come into play.  You need to be able to adapt to the situation as it changes.  If one thing isnt working, move on to the next!!



> This is not a slam on Modern Arnis because I think its a good system. Im just not convinced it translates to blade very efficiently. I believe that Remy probably could have pulled off some of those techniques that involve monitoring the blade with the alive hand, but I dont think its realistic to train everyone that way because very few people in the world were as good as Remy was. Let me know what you think.



Question for you.  Do you train in Modern Arnis?  If so, for how long?  If not, I suggest finding a good instructor to teach you, that way, you'll have a better understanding of the art.  Its hard to visualize things on a computer screen.  Seeing and feeling is believing!!! :asian: 

Mike


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## hardheadjarhead (Jul 28, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> I havent seen any of those disarms done by grabbing the blade, and if someone is teaching that way, shame on them.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> ...




Mike,

Remy often stripped the blade out of the hand during knife defense, being very careful to avoid the edge.  He'd say, indicating the edge, "This is the sharp.  If you do not grab it, you will not be cut!"

I'll leave it to Epa to post his qualifications and training.


Regards,


Steve


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## MJS (Jul 28, 2004)

hardheadjarhead said:
			
		

> Mike,
> 
> Remy often stripped the blade out of the hand during knife defense, being very careful to avoid the edge.  He'd say, indicating the edge, "This is the sharp.  If you do not grab it, you will not be cut!"
> 
> ...



Notice that we are talking about 2 different things here.  This is what I said.



> I've seen disarms done where the blade is stripped from the opps. hand by using your forearm.



This is what Epa said.



> For example, of the twelve basic disarms (the way I learned them) #1, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8 and #12 all have you grab the blade and most of the other disarms have your body come into contact with the blade



I'm not doubting that Remy did this, as I've been at seminars and have seen him do it.  I dont believe that he was using his hand on the blade, in a grabbing fashion, but more in a stripping motion.  My Arnis instructor has done disarms with me by using the forearm as I've mentioned.  There is a difference between actually grabbing and using the stripping motion.

Mike


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## hardheadjarhead (Jul 28, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> I havent seen any of those disarms done by grabbing the blade, and if someone is teaching that way, shame on them.
> 
> 
> Question for you.  Do you train in Modern Arnis?  If so, for how long?  If not, I suggest finding a good instructor to teach you, that way, you'll have a better understanding of the art.  Its hard to visualize things on a computer screen.  Seeing and feeling is believing!!! :asian:
> ...




What you wrote is above...you said you hadn't seen any disarms involving grabbing the blade as Epa described in those disarms he listed.  Remy did just that, as I pointed out.  

Following the disarm Remy would end up with the knife in his hand, holding it by the blade, without the edge touching his hand.  I've seen him do this with all the disarms that Epa described.  

Now, this to me is a grab.  Remy had the knife in control, by the blade.  Not everyone liked that disarm...some preferring the Kali strips involving the forearm.

Forgive me for my confusion, but if one goes over the past three posts involving this, one might see the contradiction here.  You say you'd seen Remy do this...but call "shame" on anyone teaching it.  

I teach it.  Remy taught me.  Hence my concern.

Is this simply a common friction brought on by semantics?  Grabbing the blade to disarm him, or grabbing the blade to "strip" it, is still grabbing the blade.  One ends up with the same result...the knife is in your hand, held by the blade.


Regards,


Steve


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## Dan Anderson (Jul 28, 2004)

Hi Eric,

A lot of what Remy Presas taught in the US was Modern Arnis stick work.  If you look at translating stick actions exactly to the use of the blade, yes, you have problems with the edge.  Others have posted how the blade introduces different actions within the same art so I'll not copy them.  A key thing is knowing that RP inserted blade teaching in between his stick work, often in the form of an offhand comment.  Some took those offhand comments and ran with them.  Others who were stickers didn't.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Epa (Jul 28, 2004)

After reading the replies I realized I didn't express myself clearly in the first post. I used the word blade instead of sword. I've seen some of the MA defenses against knife and am aware that Remy taught defense against the knife, but I've not seen much material specifically on the sword.

So when I ask about the disarms, I'm referring to the stick disarms being applied to a sword of similar length. My question about adapting the disarms is, I think, valid with regard to swords. For example, with the first disarm one of the common variations that I think most people have seen has you stop the incoming strike, grab the tip of the stick, turn it out to weaken the grip and lever it out with your stick pushing near their hand or smashing it if you prefer. It's the one in the yellow book. 

With that clarification in mind, how do you go about adapting a stick disarm like that to the blade? and Is it worthwhile to try to adapt the existing technique as opposed to simply studying an art that specializes in the sword or creating your own. 

I also want to bring out the point that while it is possible to adapt many techniques is it an efficient use of training time. Looking at the disarms again, I'm sure many people on this board have spent a lot of time training those basic disarms, much more time than training bladed variations of the same disarms. I know I have. So when I'm sparring those trained habits of grabbing the weapon come out, which is great for stick, but those same habits may also come out in blade work because they've been so thoroughly conditioned. 

Sorry about the mix up, next time I'll try to be more clear. Also, if anyone has seen specific Arnis sword techniques or drills I'd be curious to hear about them because I really haven't, though I have trained in Modern Arnis before. I started in 1993 and received Lakan in 1996 under Professor Presas. Thanks for the replies.

Eric


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## Dan Anderson (Jul 28, 2004)

Epa said:
			
		

> *1.* With that clarification in mind, how do you go about adapting a stick disarm like that to the blade? and Is it worthwhile to try to adapt the existing technique as opposed to simply studying an art that specializes in the sword or creating your own.
> 
> *2.* So when I'm sparring those trained habits of grabbing the weapon come out, which is great for stick, but those same habits may also come out in blade work because they've been so thoroughly conditioned.
> 
> Eric



Hi Eric,

1.  Some will translate, some won't.  Keep in mind what the edge will do to you and act accordingly.

2.  Yeah, that's a bummer.  You'll need to do drills with the blade and then spar lots more to overcome that.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Flatlander (Jul 28, 2004)

In my limited experience, I would hesitate to try to adapt most disarms, and concentrate more on cutting that hand off.  Rather than meeting the force, blending through Abinico, or what have you, and countering.:asian:


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## hardheadjarhead (Jul 28, 2004)

Dan Anderson said:
			
		

> Hi Eric,
> A key thing is knowing that RP inserted blade teaching in between his stick work, often in the form of an offhand comment.  Some took those offhand comments and ran with them.  Others who were stickers didn't.
> 
> Yours,
> Dan Anderson




The danger with expressing it that way, Dan, is that in saying something such as this we get people claiming to REALLY know what Remy meant...as if they were privy to some secret knowledge gained by their experience with him.  

In time we get people lining up and saying that they trained with him longer, in private, or that he whispered some earth shattering secret to them off to the side.  

I'm not saying you're doing that here.  I'm merely pointing out how such rhetoric can backfire.

------

Now Epa/Eric...you were talking about a SWORD?  You got me and Mike all in a tussle over knives for no good reason...you little monkey.

Before the mods jump on me, "Epa" means monkey, I believe.



Regards,


Steve


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## Cruentus (Jul 28, 2004)

Epa said:
			
		

> So how do you modify the techniques where you grab the stick for blade work? This may be good for a different post, but could you also talk a little bit about the difference between Balintawak and Modern Arnis. I'm curious because I've only seen a tiny piece of Balintawak. Thanks.
> 
> Eric



Hi Eric. Quick answer...you grab the wrist instead of the stick. However, it is best not to "grab" at all when dealing with a longer knife or sword.

The long answer: go see a qualified instructor who can fill you in. You will see how it is "all the same," however, the details are very difficult to really grasp from an online conversation.

Now about Balintawak and Modern Arnis differences...

Balintawak is not a "self defense" system per say. It is a dueling system that originally consisted of ONLY single stick fighting. In Cebu and other areas of the PI, you settled scores by dueling...kinda like the wild west. However, the weapon of choice in the 20th century was a stick rather then a blade or gun or something else....with a stick there was less blood and more of a chance to live through it. So, developed in this time of single stick dueling, Balintawak became known as one of the most prominent stick fighting arts in the world. That being said, the way to develop and hone your skills in the martial craft is through "deuling" systems. I can say that I have improved 100's of percent since I began my Balintawak training only a few years ago. Also worth mentioning, that many Balintawak players have modified their system to fit the needs of a blade ot empty hand practitioner...however, it was all stick when it first started.

Modern Arnis is NOT a dueling system per say, it is a self-defense system. You learn how to defend yourself through concepts and movement, and you learn how to translate what you learn from the Dojo to real life scenarios with the "all the same" concept. The system is not designed for you to "fight" your opponent...rather it is designed for you to "defend yourself." A good analogy is the Modern Arnis emphasis on disarming. In Balintawak, we rarely disarm (although we have them)...because in a duel I want you to retain your weapon while I beat the snot out of you. Modern Arnis, taking away the weapon represents the most prudent form of self-defense. Now, once again, people will make it there own. Many good "fighters" or "duelers" could come from Modern Arnis...it all depends on what the individual does with their art.

I hope that my answer made sense...thanks for reading...

Oh, and Eric...nice to meet you and welcome to the forum.

 :ultracool


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## Flatlander (Jul 28, 2004)

Hey Paul, great post.  Thank you for the clarification on the differences, on that topic I am quite ignorant, perhaps a little less so now.


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## MJS (Jul 29, 2004)

hardheadjarhead said:
			
		

> What you wrote is above...you said you hadn't seen any disarms involving grabbing the blade as Epa described in those disarms he listed.  Remy did just that, as I pointed out.
> 
> Following the disarm Remy would end up with the knife in his hand, holding it by the blade, without the edge touching his hand.  I've seen him do this with all the disarms that Epa described.
> 
> ...



Yes sir Steve, I think that there was some confusion on my end as well. Please let me explain.  While I have seen Remy perform disarms, I have not seen the ones you mention.  While I'm not discrediting him, keep in mind, that the majority of techs. that are taught, are done in a static, ideal phase position.  Against someone offering some resistance, I really dont think that those would be the best choice, and you have said it yourself that not everybody liked them.  It is possible to strip the knife w/o touching the blade, as that method as well as the forearm, are ones that I've learned from my inst.  There are many inst. out there, and they all teach differently.  There was only 1 Remy, and no matter how hard we try, we are not clones, and its hard to replicate someone.  The same can be said for Vunak, Inosanto, and any others that trained with Lee.  No matter how hard I try, I will never move like Rickson on the ground.  See my point here.



> I teach it.  Remy taught me.  Hence my concern.



And Remy taught many people, who again, all teach differently.



> Is this simply a common friction brought on by semantics?  Grabbing the blade to disarm him, or grabbing the blade to "strip" it, is still grabbing the blade.  One ends up with the same result...the knife is in your hand, held by the blade.



See my post above.  It is possible to strip with knife, w/o touching the blade.  From a locking position, the hand will not be able to maintain as tight of a grip on the knife, thereby giving room to start towards the base of the knife, and remove it from the persons hand.  As I said before, that is one method that my inst. has done with me.  


Mike


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## MJS (Jul 29, 2004)

hardheadjarhead said:
			
		

> Now Epa/Eric...you were talking about a SWORD?  You got me and Mike all in a tussle over knives for no good reason...you little monkey.



 :argue:  Yeah, look what happened!!!!  LOL!  Just kidding here.  Its all in good fun Steve, and while we have had our disagreements in the past, no hard feelings.  Its hard to get what we are thinking, onto the screen, while still trying to keep it in the same context.  

Mike


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## hardheadjarhead (Jul 29, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> :argue:  Yeah, look what happened!!!!  LOL!  Just kidding here.  Its all in good fun Steve, and while we have had our disagreements in the past, no hard feelings.  Its hard to get what we are thinking, onto the screen, while still trying to keep it in the same context.
> 
> Mike




I think I've probably agreed with you on some issues, too, Mike.  I can't remember our disagreements...so they probably weren't that big of a thing. 

And yes, Remy did teach many people.  I wasn't trying to claim any exclusivity there (in fact, see above...I caution people from giving that impression).  That is a real danger we all have to watch out for. 

On the post above, you indicate some other disarms taught...I'm familiar with those.  Truly, the forearm strip is perennial...the grab strips are not.  That said, I think I saw Remy demo the grab strip at every camp I went to.

Its a moot point, in any case.  Epa was talking about a sword.

I'll let you all get back to the topic at hand.  Its early, and I need more coffee.

Regards,


Steve


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## Black Grass (Jul 29, 2004)

I'm going to take slack for this but hey, thats what a forums is all about.

I have given this opnion before. I do not think Modern Arnis (as taught now) prepares you to use the sword. The techniques are just not there. Although techiniques may be rooted in a bladed weapons, the system has fundamentally changed.

Striking
- Linear striking is used. Although it can be used effectively used to cut with the tip it does allow for the use of the body of the sword in cutting or hacking

Defence
- the basic defence based on force to force, as displayed in the basic 12 blocks against the basic 12 attacks.  I realize that there is palis-palis, but the core of the systems defence is based on hard blocking

Tactics
- Some of the long range tactics could be used with the sword, however the mid and close range tactics as seen in tapi-tapi are not suitable.

Techniques
- as stated before many of the techniques require grabbing the weapon, this is at the heart of modern arnis.

Now this not to say a modern arnis player could not use a sword if asked to, however if %80 of the techniques can't be used this tells me that the system is not suitable for the blade.  If I want to train a sniper i don't give him an uzi and train him with SAS. So if some asked me a system to learn the sword I would not say Modern Arnis.

Vince
aka Black Grass


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## Northern (Jul 29, 2004)

The long answer: go see a qualified instructor who can fill you in. You will see how it is "all the same," however, the details are very difficult to really grasp from an online conversation.

Paul is really on to something with that comment.  


To say that Arnis is Not a Blade Art, I think, is fundamentally flawed. 
In my observation Professor downplayed the blade to make Arnis a little more palatable to the general public.  
But, if you spent enough time running around the various seminars and/or summer camps you would see it. 
Or, if your Instructor decided to share the "hidden" side of the art.


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 29, 2004)

Epa said:
			
		

> I was wondering exactly how much of Modern Arnis can be transferred to the blade. From what Ive seen of Modern Arnis, its primarily a stick system. Balintawak, Modern Arnis primary influence, was also a stick system as far as I can tell with a lot of emphasis on monitoring the opponents weapon with your alive hand. If Im wrong on the Balintawak please let me know because I havent seen that much. This tactic is common in MA as well, but it does not seem like a solid tactic when dealing with bladed weapons.



Epa, As stated by others, there were other influences into Modern Arnis besides Balintawak. And in the Balintawak I train in there is no stick grabbing, there is managing though. 



			
				Epa said:
			
		

> For example, of the twelve basic disarms (the way I learned them) #1, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8 and #12 all have you grab the blade and most of the other disarms have your body come into contact with the blade. There are many other MA techniques Ive seen where you grab the opponents stick and use it to trap or lock him, which is very useful with a stick, but not so much with a blade. Given this element of Arnis, how much of Modern Arnis is really translatable to blade work?



The twelve disarm are just that, twelve different disarms. Have a training partner attack you then figure out how to do a #2 disarm. You can technically do any disarm from any location, it just requires more management and maybe more movement. If some one hits me wih a three I can still do a #1 disarm or even a #5, which I learned with out grabbing, yet that does not mean the technique you have is any less or any more, just different, yet I would expect very similar if not the same with he exception of the grab.




			
				Epa said:
			
		

> I understand that basic striking, footwork and attributes are always translatable, but these are present in almost every FMA system. So is it as productive to train Arnis with a blade when many of the techniques must be thrown out or modified quite a bit? This is not a slam on Modern Arnis because I think its a good system. Im just not convinced it translates to blade very efficiently. I believe that Remy probably could have pulled off some of those techniques that involve monitoring the blade with the alive hand, but I dont think its realistic to train everyone that way because very few people in the world were as good as Remy was. Let me know what you think.
> 
> Respectfully,



How about a story problem: If a train is traveling on a closed system track (* i.e. no turn offs and no crosses *) from Detroit to Chicago, at the rate of 55 MPH and another trains leaves at the exact same time (* Train time is great those guys keep schedules *) and is traveling on the same closed track as teh first train from Chicago to Detroit, at a rate of 65 MPH. The distance of the track 300 miles. How long after the trains leave will they collide?

Now the techniques used to solve this problem are the same as if the first train was traveling 55 MPH and the second train was traveling 65 KPH, the unit conversion is different, yet the overall approach would be the same, also you could state that one train left at 15:00 on 3rd of August, and the other train left at 3:00 PM on 3rd of August. You could ask what time do they collide? You could also change the times of the trains so as not to leave at the same time, and then you would still use the same basics and concepts to solve the problem.

Therfore, if the opponent has a blade you change your options based upon the attributes of the weapon you are facing. The same goes for the Sabat or staff, as the distance would be an issue. 

I know long and obtuse, yet I hope you get my point. :asian:


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## hardheadjarhead (Jul 30, 2004)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> How about a story problem: If a train is traveling on a closed system track (* i.e. no turn offs and no crosses *) from Detroit to Chicago, at the rate of 55 MPH and another trains leaves at the exact same time (* Train time is great those guys keep schedules *) and is traveling on the same closed track as teh first train from Chicago to Detroit, at a rate of 65 MPH. The distance of the track 300 miles. How long after the trains leave will they collide?





Wait a minute.  I didn't know there was going to be math in this thread.

I HATE story problems.  But then, I generally hate math.


Regards,


Steve


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## Northern (Jul 30, 2004)

Two and 1/2 hours you sadistic "something"


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