# success in an FMA school



## thekuntawman (Nov 28, 2009)

instead of being preachy im just going to give a few tips, but lets have a brainstorm, as my wife calls it. i know most of you dont have a school, but instead of talking about why youdont think its going to work, lets have ideas for how it can work.



skill--the teacher must be good at what he does. i dont think you need to give your guy a demonstration (i dont like giving demos), but when you sign him up, good skill will enourage him to keep training, because he wants to be like you. my guys watching me spar or train is a great motivation for them to train, which is why i take them with me when i fight. so a teacher has to train, as part of his business day. its just as important as a good sign or good ad
good location--doesnt have to be nice neighborhood. my school is in a gang area of sacramento (oak park), we have bullet holes in my doors, i even been in a fight myself right in front of my place. but when your a good school, people will come from all over to study with you. none of my adults lives close by. but it helps to have a school that can be seen from a busy street. my experience,,,, dont do the back of warehouse space. unless you want to spend a lot in advertising. i know a guy in DC, dennis brown, who put his schools in warehouse spaces (he had 4 schools) and only one was in a "good" location. the money he save in rent, had to go to advertising. last i talked to him, in 1999, he told me he was moving to his own buildings, which he is buying (mr brown had more than 1200 students then), but if he could do it again, no more warehouse!
discipline to put flyers--i think this kills a school, to open the place and then wait. it is scary for many students to study, but many people want to learn. get in there face as much as you can, posters, flyers on cars, doornob hangers at their house, even a radio ad (you can get it as cheap as $250). the more they see you, they will get closer to coming in.
dont offer too much--i have two ways to join, month to month and pay in full 6 months. there is one tuition rate, and mine is high, but no confusion. students appreciate that. then for classes i offer four things, kung fu, eskrima, kickboxing, and coaching for fighters. if they want kuntaw, i dont let them for the first year or two. i think too many classes will sound like your jack of all trades and the more serious students who stay longer want a deep program, not just the skin of an art.
make sure they get results--if the student feels himself getting stronger, he will work harder. its kind of like if you swim across a river. your lungs are burning, but the closer you get to the other side, you swim harder and harder to get there. when the student sees himself getting good skill, he will work harder to get all the way. when he feels like no difference, he will lost interest.
learn how to teach--you can have rally heavieweight students join, or they are older, or scared of everything like his own shadow, or he is a smoker, etc. but the best teachers is the one who can take a weak man, and erase his weaknesses. i dont think most tough guys will take lessons, you get mostly the weak ones. some of my toughest fighters in my place now, are the pencil necks and fat boys of 5 years ago. do this, and you will keep those students a long time. when you keep a student longer, you dont have to work hard to get new ones. i know teachers who will starve if they dont get new students, because they lose them just as fast as they come.
anybody else?


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## MJS (Nov 28, 2009)

People are going to need to know what the FMAs are all about.  Its amazing the number of people that I've talked to, who ask about what arts I train, and when I get to Arnis, they're like, "Whats that?"  So this now entails an in-depth breakdown of what the art is.  

That being said, I think it would be a good idea to make yourself known to the community in general.  Otherwise, you're going to have a bunch of window shoppers who never commit to anything.  

People need to understand what the training entails.  Again, I'm amazed at the number of folks that cringe at certain things, both in the FMAs as well as Kenpo.  "Ohh..thats too violent, I could never do that." is just 1 example.  

People need to be willing to get hit and fight hard.  There is nothing pretty or flashy about the FMAs, compared to other things, such as those arts that spend hours on jumping into the air, spinning 3 times and throwing 4 kicks.  One of the main reason why I love the FMAs is because they're straight and to the point, and very effective.  

Location will play a part.  Depending on where your school is, certain people may not want to travel there.  Also depending on where your school is, you may get people you dont want.  

In the end, I suppose it all comes down to what each school owner wants.  Do they want a large group?  Do they not care as long as they've got a dedicated group?  I mean, if you only have 50 people, well, if you're in it for the $$$ you may not make enough to cover the bills, but at least you're spreading the art.


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## geezer (Nov 28, 2009)

The whole school thing is a bit problematic. My instructor really doesn't want to bother with it any more. He can make a better living with his "day job" and still train students privately. That sticks the burden of teaching _publicly_ on his long time students. If I want to see the system prosper and grow, I will have to get my own class going again... and that is a whole lot of work. I ran classes back in the 80's when I was a single grad-student without a lot of responsibilities. I basically earned my living expenses by teaching. But now, I'm a family man in his fifties with a career and a lot of responsibilities. I'd much rather just pay to be a student at somebody else's school. But if I want to keep training, I may just have to take on this challenge again. 

Another thing that makes me leery about teaching. I know several pretty impressive FMA practitioners around here... all better than I am... and they don't teach publicly. In fact, they have trouble retaining students, and not for lack of skill. People just have a hard time making that much of a commitment to what is really just a hobby for them. An eccentric hobby at that. 

So, right now, I'm just building up a small group at a city park, and considering setting up a class with the city parks and rec dept., the "Y", or a community college ckass... all things I did before, many years ago. I'll post back if I am successful. Anyway, best of luck to the rest of you, especially the full-time pros like the Kuntawman.


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## thekuntawman (Nov 28, 2009)

geezer said:


> The whole school thing is a bit problematic. My instructor really doesn't want to bother with it any more. He can make a better living with his "day job" and still train students privately. That sticks the burden of teaching _publicly_ on his long time students. If I want to see the system prosper and grow, I will have to get my own class going again... and that is a whole lot of work. I ran classes back in the 80's when I was a single grad-student without a lot of responsibilities. I basically earned my living expenses by teaching. But now, I'm a family man in his fifties with a career and a lot of responsibilities. I'd much rather just pay to be a student at somebody else's school. But if I want to keep training, I may just have to take on this challenge again.
> 
> Another thing that makes me leery about teaching. I know several pretty impressive FMA practitioners around here... all better than I am... and they don't teach publicly. In fact, they have trouble retaining students, and not for lack of skill. People just have a hard time making that much of a commitment to what is really just a hobby for them. An eccentric hobby at that.
> 
> So, right now, I'm just building up a small group at a city park, and considering setting up a class with the city parks and rec dept., the "Y", or a community college ckass... all things I did before, many years ago. I'll post back if I am successful. Anyway, best of luck to the rest of you, especially the full-time pros like the Kuntawman.



thank you. learning how to do martial arts well is only one part of the plan for being successful. good skill attract the students and helps to keep them, but the other two parts of success is learning how to market the school, and learning how to teach. you have to have all three to make it work. it aint hard, and sometimes you can be alittle weak in one part but strong in the other. in the FMA we see that most teachers focus on advertising, articles and making yourself look good (marketing), instead of how to build good skill or how to develop good skill in the students (how to teach). in the commercial tae kwon do world, they are more concerned, how to market and how to teach and very little on developing good skill. in many japanese styles, they are concerned with skill first and teaching second. in kung fu i hate to say it but tradition, lineage and politics is most important, more important than making a living, or even learning how to fight.

everybody has whats important to himself in the martial arts, but if we are talking about how to have a healthy FMA school we cannot ignore learning to do business, and learning "how" to teach. i was lucky when i was young, because i didnt know nothing about how to teach or how to do business, and i had some tkd masters and some others who taught me the business and teaching side, which my teachers never taught me.

it is sad to see teachers who love the art stay in the garage because he doesnt believe he can make it as a career. when lots of time its not even how much money you can get started with, but learning how to run the business. there's some good stuff out there to read and learn, but what helped me the most was NAPMA and EFC, next to some of the teachers i met.

education is also important for the public. one of the hardest things i have when i get students who already read about FMA is to re-educate them from what they think they know. but lots of time we have to do that any way with new students. especially the teenagers, who think they know it all anyway.


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## MJS (Nov 29, 2009)

thekuntawman said:


> thank you. learning how to do martial arts well is only one part of the plan for being successful. good skill attract the students and helps to keep them, but the other two parts of success is learning how to market the school, and learning how to teach. you have to have all three to make it work. it aint hard, and sometimes you can be alittle weak in one part but strong in the other. in the FMA we see that most teachers focus on advertising, articles and making yourself look good (marketing), instead of how to build good skill or how to develop good skill in the students (how to teach). in the commercial tae kwon do world, they are more concerned, how to market and how to teach and very little on developing good skill. in many japanese styles, they are concerned with skill first and teaching second. in kung fu i hate to say it but tradition, lineage and politics is most important, more important than making a living, or even learning how to fight.


 
They all go hand in hand.  Any time someone opens a business, especially a martial arts business, considering the number of frauds out there, it will be a huge help if people knew something about you.  For example...I could come across a BJJ school, and within a short amount of time, be able to figure out who the person has trained with, what his background is, and most likely be able to verify if what he's saying is true or false.  

Keep in mind, that we are talking about arts that are well known, vs. arts, such as the FMAs, that are not that well known.  I mean think about it....ask a TKD person about other people in TKD and they'll probably be able to tell you who they are.  Ask them about Remy Presas, Kelly Worden, Bram Frank or Leo Gaje, and they'll probably look at you like you have 5 heads.  I already gave examples of what people say to me when I tell them I train in Arnis.

So, that being said, while it is important to teach quality material, its also important to let people know who you are.  Simply opening up a school and hoping people will walk in, vs. making yourself known...well, the differences should be obvious.




> it is sad to see teachers who love the art stay in the garage because he doesnt believe he can make it as a career. when lots of time its not even how much money you can get started with, but learning how to run the business. there's some good stuff out there to read and learn, but what helped me the most was NAPMA and EFC, next to some of the teachers i met.


 
Again, thats their choice.  Fact is, those people are still spreading the art.  And yes, its still very possible that word of mouth, probably one of the best ways to advertise, also brings in students.  So, someone asks me what arts I train.  I say Arnis.  They show interest, so I tell them more, even physically showing them techniques.  They ask who I train with.  I tell them that if they're really serious about training, go check out my teacher.  Boom...he has a new student.  

Again, just because someone doesnt want to run a FT school, doesn't make them any less of a teacher.


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## Mark Lynn (Dec 2, 2009)

thekuntawman said:


> t but what helped me the most was NAPMA and EFC, next to some of the teachers i met.



Kuntawman

When I was reading the full time FMA thread, I didn't find much that I agreed with you on.  But this thread I think is really better and more constructive.  Your post that I edited I thought was right on, but I wanted to comment on this statement.

I know the standard consulting/billing companies have a bad rap with a lot of martial artists but I think learning how to run a business is every bit as important as good skill in the martial arts.  Since the 80's when running a martial arts school full time became more of a reality for more instructors, the business consulting type of companies I believe have helped form a much needed service to instructors.

Just like in the MAs there are good companies and bad, good advice and bad, what works for some might not work for you or for the guy down the street, but it works for someone.  As instructors/martial artists we seek out good martial artists/instructors to learn from, I believe we need to learn from credible business minded people to learn how to run a school and make it profitable so you can give your students the best experience they can get for the money.  If the school is unprofitable it either closes, or is a drag on the instructors and students, so it needs to be run right so it can be successful.

Being a great fighter, isn't the same as being a great teacher, and being a great teacher doesn't mean you can run a business either. FWIW I am not a member of NAPMA, MAIA, EFC, etc. etc. but I do think they can be of service to the martial arts school owner. 

Mark


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## Nolerama (Dec 2, 2009)

I'm not a fan of print advertising; including making a ton of flyers that will get tossed out by the majority of the population.

Think about it: people used to use flyers to reach as many people a possible without having to pitch their idea in person.

There are much better ways than that now. We have the internet! Pad each level of exposure in terms of social networking (facebook, myspace, etc) with genuine topics relating to your school. Hit the classifieds online (craigslist, etc). Then hit up forums and become members of that community.

Your school will grow as long as you're honest with them. I'd rather attend the school of a person I "met" online, who has given me some bits of knowlege than from a flyer.

Flyers are dead advertising. For the $250 spent on printing costs (that sounds like a horrible print at that price, btw) you can buy a new trainer knife, or even a couple of t-shirts to advertise your school.

So you and one of your current students goes out to the park, on a busy day, and keep some business cards on hand (you can get a ton of simple cards for about $20) and wear your cool t-shirts while you train.

People will stop and watch.

And you kill two birds with one stone: you get some training time in, and get your exposure out on a very real, legit level.

My .02


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## chris arena (Dec 4, 2009)

My first exposure to FMA was in the late 1980's after recouperating from back surgery and looking for a martial art I could handle after some time studing Choy Lay Fut in San Francisco, prior to my injury. I walked into this school in San Leandro, Ca. and noticed the Arnis sign in the gym. And saw two guys with sticks in thier hands, I thought to myself, Right! whacking each other with sticks! How silly could that be? And walked right back out the door.  It was only about 5 years, later, after moving to Washington state did I run into Datu Kelly Worden, where I have been studing with ever since.

Oh, by the way, The school I walked out on was GrandMaster Max Pallens. And, to add insult to injury, I also used to drive right by Meastro Sonny Umpad's Apartment!  Although Arnis has gotten a lot of press over the past 20 years, I have found out that the average guy doesn't know any more now, that what I did 20 years ago. It takes someone who knows the art and can effectivily communicate what those sticks are really doing in order to show the beauty of this art. So, that 25 year old and older male or female (that in my mind, really NEEDS TO KNOW this art) will in all likely hood react in exactly the same way that I did. And, why not. this art has to be sold. It is not as visual as the typical Karate class. It deals with flow, footwork, combination striking, using the weapon as an extension of the hand, multiple movements all at once. etc, etc. But, without some insight, how would a person know. He only sees the stick.

For me, it only took a few seconds with Datu Worden to peak my curiosity! Looking back, it was a shame that GrandMaster Pallen was'nt in the room during my visit to his school! Chris Arena


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## Archangel M (Dec 4, 2009)

IMO, MA Schools are very "trendy"...back in the day Bruce and the "Kung-Fu" series made CMA popular, the 80's ushered in the Ninja craze, now its BJJ and MMA.

FMA is kind of a "niche market". It's gonna be tough "getting butts in the seats" so to speak in a local corner dojo.


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## ap Oweyn (Dec 5, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> IMO, MA Schools are very "trendy"...back in the day Bruce and the "Kung-Fu" series made CMA popular, the 80's ushered in the Ninja craze, now its BJJ and MMA.
> 
> FMA is kind of a "niche market". It's gonna be tough "getting butts in the seats" so to speak in a local corner dojo.


 
That's true.  Though FMA is enjoying a sort of secret popularity right now.  People are saying, "did you see the fight scenes in the Bourne Identity?!"  Or whatever the movie of the day is.  But there's no direct correlation to FMA, unless you watch the extra features and see the Jeff Imada interviews.

So FMA is actually more exposed in the popular media now than it has been.  It's just that nobody knows what they're looking at.


Stuart


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## Nolerama (Dec 8, 2009)

I think it would be cool to approach MMA schools with FMA as a "supplement" to MMA students' MA knowledge. Not all MMA practitioners are out there to learn to fight in the cage. There are lots of guys and gals training MMA for the workout.

Pitch that the footwork in FMA is great for boxing and excellent for guard passing.

The contact level that some FMA practitioners experience gets players' "toes in the water." Why phase in competiton with a punch, when you're used to getting tagged with a stick?

Something I've been interested in is a clinch game w/ takedowns and wrestling with a trainer knife. There are some very interesting insights appear when you bring a knife into the equation.

Just some thoughts.


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## chris arena (Dec 8, 2009)

I have a student that has moved up into MMA competition. MMA is a serious athletic sport and it takes full time concentration. Although he loves FMA (and has the fast hands to prove it). He has no time for crosstraining. For him at the moment it is MMA all the way.

It is hard to get most 20 something males into FMA from MMA. They are into the tough guy image and all the hype as it is the current rage. They may go to a class or two, get punched out an leave. They may even make it to a club contest, but for most of them that is as far as it goes. FMA is almost an impossible sell to this group. Even my past student, after a few years when injury forces him out may return to FMA (unless he is too damaged to even play at all). Very very few of them attain the level that my student has risen to. Sadly, Martial Arts hype on the art of the moment is the biggest draw for large number attendance

I have long thought that FMA is MMA for adults! Most adults recognise that common sense self defense is what they are after, not to mention just getting thier butts off the sofa twice a week and having some fun. they don't walk into the gym looking like tough guys and most of them are anything but tough. Proper FMA instruction can give the average person a good edge in self defense. It is a natural for women and a great exercise for the older jock with the bad back and knees! I really believe that this a great market for our art. We have to present it in this light. Look at the success and the student types in Europe. They have really tapped into this market. Our prospective student is educated, intellegent and hard working. He has money to attend seminars and travel. In my mind, this is a great potential market. The problem is the ratio of that age group that would want to take the time to train. As most tend to be "armchair athletes" or just too busy getting through life to take the time to commit to practice over the long haul.

Look at the popularity of the Krav Maga type class in attracting this type of adult. It only lasts a few weeks, you get a piece of paper at the end and presto, you now know self defense!? That is the problem in getting long term adults. It is the nature of our culture. The school that I teach my Saturday class is big on the Israeli Self Defense stuff. I have two students that came from that class and they both agree that FMA is most definately played at a higher level. In fact FMA should be the "next level" for those students. However, and sadly the vast majority take thier piece of paper after the course ends and that is the end of it.

Yes, I agree that it is a long road. But the rewards are great when you get to watch you student / training partner / friend grow and start playing at a higher level.

Chris A


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## thekuntawman (Dec 21, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> IMO, MA Schools are very "trendy"...back in the day Bruce and the "Kung-Fu" series made CMA popular, the 80's ushered in the Ninja craze, now its BJJ and MMA.
> 
> FMA is kind of a "niche market". *It's gonna be tough "getting butts in the seats" so to speak in a local corner dojo*.


 
yes, but its not impossible. in every business world, you have some people who are very different from the rest of his community, and the ones who have a good plan to find customers (or students) will make it, the rest will disappear. 

i want to say something about a few of the "flyers" posts. many of the things that will bring you business only brings a little at a time. so one thing (like flyers) brings one or two students, and ad somewhere brings one or two students, then your street sign brings one or two students... etc. as businessmen you canot put all your eggs in one place, thinking that "i will only do the advertising thats going to bring me a lot of students". because the reality is that we have to do a little of everything for our results, one or two students at a time, but they add up. if we take away anything, thats one or two more we NOT going to get. and the number is really low, but again, thats business. you advertise on a newspaper, how many people see your ad? 100,000? and how many call you? or sign up? 3? but if the ad cost $100 thats not bad. flyers is like that too, that you will have to do a lot, just to get a few people. its part of doing business.

so for the FMA person, the first thing he must do is realize his art is just as important and just as desired as other arts. he has to feel this way himself, before he can expect people to want to study with him full time. once he feels this way, its all just a number game to bring more people to your school to see if it fits.

messages, articles, image in the magazines, actors doing FMA in the movies, thats all good, but if the teacher feels the art is not worthy of a full time study, his school will always be one day a week in some tae kwon do school.


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## James Kovacich (Dec 22, 2009)

Nolerama said:


> I think it would be cool to approach MMA schools with FMA as a "supplement" to MMA students' MA knowledge. Not all MMA practitioners are out there to learn to fight in the cage. There are lots of guys and gals training MMA for the workout.
> 
> Pitch that the footwork in FMA is great for boxing and excellent for guard passing.
> 
> ...


 Likethis.


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## Mark Lynn (Dec 22, 2009)

Nolerama said:


> Something I've been interested in is a clinch game w/ takedowns and *wrestling with a trainer knife*. There are some very interesting insights appear when you bring a knife into the equation.
> 
> Just some thoughts.



Hock introduced this type of a drill to us back in the mid 90's.  Two people back to back on a mat, turn towards each other and go after it.  One person has a folder (trainer) in their pocket and their job/goal was to access it and open it and go to town with it, the other person job or goal was to prevent it from even coming into play.

Here are some thoughts though why mixing MMA with the FMA might not be such a good idea.  If your were to approach it from the position trying to educate the person with the goal of improving skills for self defense.


Have one person try for submission while the other can stick their fingers into (near) the others eyes.  If the guy gets the submission they win, if they get fingers into their eyes they lose.
Same type of drill with a knife.
Have two people square off for a match and when one goes down on the floor have a third party come in with a weapon and (prearranged before hand who they will help or attack) have them attack/help one of the people.
With the above three drill scenarios the students *might* lose faith in the whole submission and ground work skills set.  Thus learning for a while and then feel that they have reached their goals and leave the school.

MMA is still primarily set up for a match between two people on a mat for submissions.  Trying to get it off of that mission might not be as good for the school as you might think.  Likewise this would fit for any type of school really.

Mark


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