# concealed weapons not allowed on premises...?



## Sam (Jul 28, 2006)

What do you do when you run across these signs? They seem to be at many important places - the grocery store, doctor's offices, hospitals, schools, the bank...

Do you go put your gun in your glove compartment? Do you carry it anyway?


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## Lisa (Jul 28, 2006)

Here in Canada it isn't much of a problem since we are not allowed to conceal carry, but I have heard from friends in the states that refuse to shop at these stores any longer because of that policy.


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## Sam (Jul 28, 2006)

I think you would be hard pressed to find a bank which allowed concealed handguns on the premises...?


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## Bigshadow (Jul 28, 2006)

There are some locations that conceal carry is forbidden by law, then there are places that post signs like that, but unless it falls under the forbidden types of locations under the law, I don't believe it carries much weight.  I will carry unless it is illegal by law.

EDIT:  Here in Florida, Banks, government buildings, schools, establishments that (primarily) serve alcohol, football games, and others, are off-limits by law to carry concealed.


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## Sam (Jul 28, 2006)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> There are some locations that conceal carry is forbidden by law, then there are places that post signs like that, but unless it falls under the forbidden types of locations under the law, I don't believe it carries much weight. I will carry unless it is illegal by law.


 
Interesting. So the signs are empty threats?


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## Bigshadow (Jul 28, 2006)

Sam said:
			
		

> Interesting. So the signs are empty threats?


I *believe* so.  I have never read anywhere that the law states I cannot carry where posted signs say I cannot (other than the list in the statutes).

Basically, if it is a grocery store or retail store, I am going in packing if I have it on me. 

EDIT:  IMO, the signs are liability on their part.  It is my responsibility to protect myself.  If I choose to carry to help ensure this and I encounter a sign at a store like that, they are assuming liability for my protection by forbidding me to carry there.  Now of course I do not think they realise this.  The first time they fail to protect, I see a big legal problem for them.    

In any case, I will carry if I want to, regardless of the signs.


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## Grenadier (Jul 28, 2006)

Sam said:
			
		

> I think you would be hard pressed to find a bank which allowed concealed handguns on the premises...?


 
Not necessarily.  It simply varies from state to state, and within states that do not forbid it, from place to place.  

As to what to do, some states' laws simply say that if you are caught carrying in those areas, then you must leave the premises.  Others make it a crime to do so.  

In places where a specific sign is required, and if they do not have the correct sign posted, I simply stay quiet, and disregard the sign.  This isn't always the case, though, since some states just require any kind of scribbling to be "correct."  

For cases where it's blatantly, and unquestionably unlawful, such as post offices, gov't buildings, etc., and where there are no alternatives, I simply leave the gun in the glove compartment of my car.  The way I figure, such places usually at least have some modicum of security, but if I can go elsewhere, then I will.  

A bit of a chuckle:

When I was getting my dissertation ready for printing, the nearby print shop had a "No Weapons Allowed" sign on it that I hadn't seen before.  I was standing at the door, holding several boxes of 100% cotton bond paper in my hands, and simply walked away.  The owner wondered what was wrong, and when I told him about the silly sign doing nothing to stop criminals while hindering law abiding folks, he said "Oh!  I only meant for the bad guys!" and changed it to "No Unlawful Weapons Allowed."


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## arnisandyz (Jul 28, 2006)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> EDIT:  Here in Florida, Banks are off-limits by law to carry concealed.



Bad advice.
You CAN carry in banks in Florida. (Unless you go to Federal Reserve bank), bank roberries are under FEDERAL jurisdiction ONLY because the banks are FDIC insured. Banks ARE NOT Federal Property. I think of all places you would want to be armed is in a bank! Unless the bank has a posted sign saying you can't...you can.  Nowhere in Florida law does it specifically say you can't carry in BANKS. Think about this...a robber is casing out banks for a robbery. Given the choice, do you think he will chose a regular bank or a bank that has a NO Carry sign? Thats why most banks don't post a no carry sign here in Florida.

READ 790.06 below and show me where it says BANKS are off limits?

790.06 (12) License to Carry Concealed Weapon or Firearm

Any place of nuisance as defined in s. 823.05
any police, sheriff, or highway patrol station;
any detention facility, prison, or jail;
any courthouse; any courtroom, except that nothing in this section would preclude a judge from carrying a concealed weapon or determining who will carry a concealed weapon in his or her courtroom;
any polling place;
any meeting of the governing body of a county, public school district, municipality, or special district;
any meeting of the Legislature or a committee thereof;
any school, college, or professional athletic event not related to firearms;
any school administration building;
any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, which portion of the establishment is primarily devoted to such purpose;
any elementary or secondary school facility;
any area vocational-technical center;
any college or university facility unless the licensee is a registered student, employee, or faculty member of such college or university and the weapon is a stun gun or nonlethal electric weapon or device designed solely for defensive purposes and the weapon does not fire a dart or projectile;
inside the passenger terminal and sterile area of any airport, provided that no person shall be prohibited from carrying any legal firearm into the terminal, which firearm is encased for shipment for purposes of checking such firearm as baggage to be lawfully transported on any aircraft; or
any place where the carrying of firearms is prohibited by federal law


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## arnisandyz (Jul 28, 2006)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> I *believe* so.  I have never read anywhere that the law states I cannot carry where posted signs say I cannot (other than the list in the statutes).



If you carry at a location tha has a No Carry sign posted and are caught, most likely you will be asked to leave the premises or store your gun in your vehicle. If you refuse, the establishment can/will call the police and you will be cited for something equivelent to tresspassing and the police will remove you from the establishment.


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## Bigshadow (Jul 28, 2006)

arnisandyz said:
			
		

> Bad advice.
> You CAN carry in banks in Florida.


Oops!  Well, I thought I had read that.  At least it was an error on the side of caution.    Thanks for posting the entire statute.... :lol:


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## arnisandyz (Jul 28, 2006)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> Oops!  Well, I thought I had read that.  At least it was an error on the side of caution.    Thanks for posting the entire statute.... :lol:



No problem. The more good guys with guns in banks the better!


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## Carol (Jul 28, 2006)

arnisandyz said:
			
		

> If you carry at a location tha has a No Carry sign posted and are caught, most likely you will be asked to leave the premises or store your gun in your vehicle. If you refuse, the establishment can/will call the police and you will be cited for something equivelent to tresspassing and the police will remove you from the establishment.


 
Excellent summation of the issue.

There are carry rights, and there are private property rights.  Ownership of private property comes with the ability to say, within bounds, who is and is not welcome on one's property.


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## theletch1 (Jul 28, 2006)

I think the big thing here for me is that it is a CONCEALED weapon...the whole point is that no-one knows you're carrying in the first place.  So, as long as you are truly carrying concealed no one will even know that you have a weapon on the premises.  Carry on (pun intended) and should you find yourself in a position to actually need the weapon then it's there for you and you can deal with the consequences later...don't carry and you may not be around to deal with the consequences.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 28, 2006)

Quick related story and I will try not to bother you again

I will not name the state or the person involved for obvious reasons.

A friend of mine was once arrested at his home early one morning as he was getting read for work by 2 state police officers. He was being arrested for delinquent parking tickets. He gave them no problems and went with them to lock up where he waited in a cell for a judge so he could pay the fines and go to work (self employed). 

He then realized as he was sitting in the cell (fortunately by himself) that he had his gun in his shoulder holster. (He deals with large sums of money in a rather large city so he carries a gun.) Everything was legal but after much thought he decided it was best not to tell them. Judge came he paid the fines and left


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## SFC JeffJ (Jul 28, 2006)

Here in Indiana, the only places we can't carry is in state and federal buildings, and the casinos.  Churches, bars, and banks are fine.  

If it's someplace with a no weapons sign posted, I will ignore it if I have no choice but to go there.  Otherwise, I find someplace else to get what I wanted from there.

JeffJ


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## Bigshadow (Jul 29, 2006)

arnisandyz said:
			
		

> If you carry at a location tha has a No Carry sign posted and are caught, most likely you will be asked to leave the premises or store your gun in your vehicle. If you refuse, the establishment can/will call the police and you will be cited for something equivelent to tresspassing and the police will remove you from the establishment.


I wouldn't refuse, I would just leave, go somewhere else.  But until caught I will ignore.  I don't pack it very often.  Most of the time my only weapons are a CRKT M16 EDC and kubotan.  I really have gotten out of the habit of carrying my .45.


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## Bigshadow (Jul 29, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> Quick related story and I will try not to bother you again
> 
> I will not name the state or the person involved for obvious reasons.
> 
> ...


:rofl:


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 29, 2006)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> :rofl:


 
I'm not sure what this response means. 

But the story was true.


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## Bigshadow (Jul 29, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> I'm not sure what this response means.
> 
> But the story was true.



No, it wasn't what you think.  I was chuckling at the whole incident that the police actually never noticed.  Actually, I should have put a frown as that is a shame.


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## jks9199 (Jul 29, 2006)

arnisandyz said:
			
		

> If you carry at a location tha has a No Carry sign posted and are caught, most likely you will be asked to leave the premises or store your gun in your vehicle. If you refuse, the establishment can/will call the police and you will be cited for something equivelent to tresspassing and the police will remove you from the establishment.


When you enter private property, you agree to be bound by the rules of the property.  If they post that no guns are allowed, you could be charged with trespassing. 

In many states, there are also particular places that you may not carry a concealed weapon, unless you fall into a narrow set of exemptions.  (In VA, those exceptions basically amount to your own property or being a law enforcement officer.)  Liqour establishments, for example...  Also, speaking only for VA, it's illegal to carry a concealed weapon to a church or school. (18.2-283 and 18.2-308.1) 

Bluntly...  If you're in doubt, you probably ought to secure the gun before you go in.


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## 7starmantis (Jul 30, 2006)

It varies from state to state, but carrying on the premisis of a place with a posted "correct" no carry sign, you can be charged with criminal tresspassing and will most likely loose your permit to carry. Not to mention what you could be charged with if using the gun. While we carry for our protection its a little odd to break the law that may send you to jail....protection comes in many different forms. We could have the protect yourself and deal later debate, but bottom line is you need to know the law and what your up against if you break it. In Texas at least, you get caught breaking any of the "little" carry laws, you loose your permit....period.


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## Marvin (Jul 30, 2006)

In  Michigan, it is illeagle to carry into a business if the business has a sign that is posted no concealed carry.
Most banks won't have that sign, because lots of people get a ccw because they carry large sums of money from work to the bank. If you don't like the store's policy on no ccw, don't shop there, that's what I would do. I don't think it's such a good idea to ignore the sign and carry anyway. I mean is the store that dangerous that you need to carry there? And if it is, could you maybe get your items somewhere else? 
Awareness is the first step in self protection, armed or unarmed.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 30, 2006)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> No, it wasn't what you think. I was chuckling at the whole incident that the police actually never noticed. Actually, I should have put a frown as that is a shame.


 
No Problem, I should probably also add when it comes to web short hand, particularly the smiley faces, I am pretty much illiterate. 

Work with computer related stuff all-day and even once was a web admin but I have not got a clue as to this other stuff, it Probably comes with being old


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## KenpoTex (Aug 1, 2006)

Unless carrying in the location is prohibited by law (Gov. buildings, hospitals, schools, etc.) I tend to "not see" the signs.


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## 7starmantis (Aug 2, 2006)

kenpotex said:
			
		

> Unless carrying in the location is prohibited by law (Gov. buildings, hospitals, schools, etc.) I tend to "not see" the signs.



A correctly worded and posted "no carry" sign is prohibited by law.


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## Swordlady (Aug 2, 2006)

In my state, you need a permit to carry concealed firearms.  If I'm not mistaken, they can be carried *anywhere*, except schools and government buildings.  I haven't seen any "Do not carry" signs yet.


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## Carol (Aug 2, 2006)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> A correctly worded and posted "no carry" sign is prohibited by law.


 
Not in Kenoptex' home state of Missouri.


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## KenpoTex (Aug 2, 2006)

Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> Not in Kenoptex' home state of Missouri.


Thanks, beat me to it...

I'm familiar with the 30.06 statute in Texas (there's a little irony for you ), In Missouri however, the only way you can be charged with a crime is if you refuse to leave the premises after you have been asked by the owner (of course, this also implies that they saw your weapon in the first place).


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## Carol (Aug 2, 2006)

Statute 30-ought-six   

Interesting to note though...in Missourah one risks being charged with a crime but the crime would be a private property crime (such as trespassing) but not a gun crime/weapons violation.


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## KenpoTex (Aug 3, 2006)

Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> Statute 30-ought-six
> 
> Interesting to note though...in Missourah one risks being charged with a crime but the crime would be a private property crime (such as trespassing) but not a gun crime/weapons violation.


Yup!


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## 7starmantis (Aug 3, 2006)

Damn Missourians using "Tex" in their names!!


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## KenpoTex (Aug 3, 2006)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> Damn Missourians using "Tex" in their names!!


I have the honor of having been born in the great state of Texas.  I just happen to be living in Misery at the moment (not exactly sure why...)


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## Explorer (Aug 4, 2006)

In Minnesota, if the sign is posted you are required to comply.  The good news is, it's legal to leave your weapon in your car.  Some folks tried to make it illegal to even have a gun locked in your trunk in Church parking lots.  It was rejected.

Up here, if I remember clearly, Wal Mart posted no guns signs while Target didn't.  Gun owners began shopping at Target in droves.  The signs at Wal Mart quietly went away.


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## SFC JeffJ (Aug 4, 2006)

Here in Indiana, they can only ask you to leave.  If you don't, then you can be charged with tresspass.

One thing I don't understand is why some states don't allow you to carry in a church.


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## 7starmantis (Aug 4, 2006)

yeah in Texas the word "premises" is defined as the entrance to the building, so leaving it in your car is ok regardles of where your at.


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## KenpoTex (Aug 4, 2006)

Explorer said:
			
		

> Up here, if I remember clearly, Wal Mart posted no guns signs while Target didn't. Gun owners began shopping at Target in droves. The signs at Wal Mart quietly went away.


That's interesting...while I don't know this to be 100% accurate, I thought I heard that Wal-Mart's corporate policy was to allow concealed-carry on their premises as long as it was allowed by law wherever the particular store was located...hmmmm.


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## Blotan Hunka (Aug 4, 2006)

Unless theres metal detectors at the door I wouldnt worry about it. Better to take your weapon and face a charge -although what would the charge be if its not on the state law books?-than get killed because you didnt have it on you.


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## Explorer (Aug 4, 2006)

kenpotex said:
			
		

> That's interesting...while I don't know this to be 100% accurate, I thought I heard that Wal-Mart's corporate policy was to allow concealed-carry on their premises as long as it was allowed by law wherever the particular store was located...hmmmm.



yeah, I can't remember clearly ... but I thought it was Wal-Mart ... Target's direct competition.  I'm unaware of Wal-Mart corporate policy ... but I do know that neither store restricts guns any more.


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## lenatoi (Aug 5, 2006)

In Arizona it is not a good idea to carry in a place where a no carry sighn is posted. if you choose to ignor the sighn and carry anyway, there can be serious reprecusions. miconduct involving a weapon is a class1 misdemeanor. disorderly conduct involving a weapon is a felony. both are possible charges. both are arrestable,both involvle jail time, and thousands of dollars in fines. 

Next subject. Banks do not typically post those signs. as a matter of fact I have never seen one here. 

I coould go on all day. The most important thing to do here is learn the laws. open up a few books. familiarize yourself with both state and federal laws. It is also a good idea to check out city ordinances. Don't be stupid. don't beleive what other people say without checking it out yourself.


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## jks9199 (Aug 5, 2006)

JeffJ said:
			
		

> Here in Indiana, they can only ask you to leave.  If you don't, then you can be charged with tresspass.
> 
> One thing I don't understand is why some states don't allow you to carry in a church.


I think the laws against carrying a gun in a church go back to the Reconstruction or Civil Rights eras.  I can easily see where there could have been problems there...

But I don't know for sure.  VA law actually says something very close to "without a good and sufficient reason"...


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## w.kaer (Aug 17, 2006)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> There are some locations that conceal carry is forbidden by law, then there are places that post signs like that, but unless it falls under the forbidden types of locations under the law, I don't believe it carries much weight. I will carry unless it is illegal by law.
> 
> EDIT: Here in Florida, Banks, government buildings, schools, establishments that (primarily) serve alcohol, football games, and others, are off-limits by law to carry concealed.


 
Back when I was managing a restaurant for a living, I had a customer come in with a concealed weapon.  I say concealed because I had more than one other customer come and bring this weapon to my attention.  The exchange went rather politely between the two of us.  He wanted to argue that he had the concealed weapon permit.  I argued that I had other customers who were uncomfortable with it and whether he expected to have to need the pistol.  Now my restaurant does serve alcohol and also does so in the dark (we serve from a full service menu while you enjoy a movie).  We were not, by any means, in a bad part of town.  I am not an anti 2nd Amendment type of guy, but as the manager (and faithful employee of the owner) I felt compelled to question the NEED to carry in my establishment.  This guy finally agreed to go lock up the weapon in his car.  From the business point-of-view, any business has the right to refuse service for any reason.  This makes the sign wholly unnecessary.   Business owners, especially small business owners, most of the times, have to weigh what is going to alienate more people and let that guide business policies.  Most small business owners have their whole lives and financial futures tied in to every seemingly small decision they make.  Sometimes it is necessary to alienate 10 potential patrons, so that he/she doesnt alienate 100 potential patrons.  

That is my point of view anyway.
:asian:


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## KenpoTex (Aug 18, 2006)

w.kaer said:
			
		

> Back when I was managing a restaurant for a living, I had a customer come in with a concealed weapon. I say concealed because I had more than one other customer come and bring this weapon to my attention. The exchange went rather politely between the two of us. He wanted to argue that he had the concealed weapon permit. I argued that I had other customers who were uncomfortable with it and whether he expected to have to need the pistol. Now my restaurant does serve alcohol and also does so in the dark (we serve from a full service menu while you enjoy a movie). We were not, by any means, in a bad part of town. I am not an anti 2nd Amendment type of guy, but as the manager (and faithful employee of the owner) I felt compelled to question the NEED to carry in my establishment. This guy finally agreed to go lock up the weapon in his car. From the business point-of-view, any business has the right to refuse service for any reason. This makes the sign wholly unnecessary. Business owners, especially small business owners, most of the times, have to weigh what is going to alienate more people and let that guide business policies. Most small business owners have their whole lives and financial futures tied in to every seemingly small decision they make. Sometimes it is necessary to alienate 10 potential patrons, so that he/she doesnt alienate 100 potential patrons.
> 
> That is my point of view anyway.
> :asian:


 A couple of thoughts...

First of all, the guy sounds like an idiot. Concealed means concealed, it's not difficult to keep your weapons from being seen. To my knowledge I have never been "made" as a CCW'er. It almost sounds like he wanted people to see it...who knows?

Secondly, while I definately respect the rights of business owners to refuse service to anyone they choose. Businesses need to realize that concealed-carry holders are increasing in numbers and many of us refuse to do business with any business that does not allow concealed-carry. In fact, I'm a member on another forum, created specifically for CCW'ers in Missouri, where they have a "black list" of businesses in the state that are posted. I personally make every effort to avoid patronizing these businesses if it's possible to do so.  (I'm not even going to get into the idiocy of advertising the fact that your business is an easy target by putting up a "no guns" sign)


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## SFC JeffJ (Aug 18, 2006)

Something else to consider about the "Need" to carry anywhere.  How can you be sure if you'll need it anywhere.  If you only carry it when you need to, you probably won't have it when you need it.  Remember, if you can plan for it, it's not an emergency.

Jeff


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## arnisandyz (Aug 18, 2006)

JeffJ said:
			
		

> Something else to consider about the "Need" to carry anywhere.  How can you be sure if you'll need it anywhere.  If you only carry it when you need to, you probably won't have it when you need it.  Remember, if you can plan for it, it's not an emergency.
> 
> Jeff



Good one...once you start to carry, its a responsiblity to do so ALL the time whenever possible, because that one time when you decide NOT to is the time you might NEED to. Its like the piece of mind you get from driving a car with insurance vs driving uninsured.  I carry even if there is a sign that's posted. Imagine going into WalMart and reading every sign they have posted as you go in. If you get made, its just ooops sorry, I didn't see the sign and leave, no big deal.


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