# Most Brutal martial art?



## Zephyor (Sep 26, 2016)

The title says all .... ( Weapon wielding arts excluded)
Wich art is most brutal in terms of viciousness of tecnique and maximum potential damage inflicted ?


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## Tez3 (Sep 26, 2016)

No art and all arts. The potential for viciousness and maximum damage *is in the person not* *the style*. You can inflict horrendous damage without knowing any art and know all the arts and never inflict damage.


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## drop bear (Sep 26, 2016)

Anything that does punching.


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## HW1 (Sep 26, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> No art and all arts. The potential for viciousness and maximum damage *is in the person not* *the style*. You can inflict horrendous damage without knowing any art and know all the arts and never inflict damage.


This. You could practice the deadliest art of them all but if you don't have a warrior's mentality and the willingness to inflict maximum damage to somebody then it's all for nothing.


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## Kong Soo Do (Sep 26, 2016)

Zephyor said:


> The title says all .... ( Weapon wielding arts excluded)
> Wich art is most brutal in terms of viciousness of tecnique and maximum potential damage inflicted ?



WWII Combatives.  Simple, gross-motor skill based and retained in long term memory.  Pretty much every movement is designed to incapacitate (or maim or kill) with a high likelyhood of missing teeth/tongue and/or broken bones.


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## RTKDCMB (Sep 26, 2016)

If you are into martial arts to be brutal and vicious then you are in it for the wrong reasons.


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## Kong Soo Do (Sep 26, 2016)

RTKDCMB said:


> If you are into martial arts to be brutal and vicious then you are in it for the wrong reasons.



I'm not sure I can fully agree with you.  It depends on your focus.  For example, if you're sport-oriented then being brutal to your sparring partner or an opponent is definitely not very cool.  On the other hand, if your focus is self-defense then you need to have that as the mind set from the very beginning.  To clarify, not that you go out of your way to 'be brutal' or just try to hurt people 'just because' but rather if you're in a situation where all of your non-force options have been taken away and you are forced to use force then the attacker's safety is no longer a concern.  You have to have the mindset that you will do whatever it takes to accomplish the task of your safety (or the safety of another).  At this point there is no holding back, no pulling punches.  As I'm fond of saying, *minimal force is not necessarily minimum force*.  Every situation will be different and the minimum force in one situation may be a _stun-n-run_ while in another it may be deadly force.  Once needs to be able to successfully navigate both scenarios with tools that will accomplish either.


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## hoshin1600 (Sep 26, 2016)

Ameri-do-te. ....everything else is BS


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## Tames D (Sep 26, 2016)

JKD. Surprised you even asked.


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## oftheherd1 (Sep 26, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> No art and all arts. The potential for viciousness and maximum damage *is in the person not* *the style*. You can inflict horrendous damage without knowing any art and know all the arts and never inflict damage.



There is a lot to agree with the 3 sentences above.  When I studied TKD, we learned to focus power where we struck, and to strike (or kick) at a precise point.  That could be 1/4 to 1/2 an inch from the target, or 1/2 to 1 inch inside an opponent's body.  But we also learned to make those decisions quickly so we knew whether to damage someone or not.  Not what you usually see today for sure.  But that meant we could be brutal, but it was always understood we would not do that just because we could, or to hurt someone without proper justification.  So the TKD that I studied would seem to meet your criteria.

The Hapkido that I studied would meet your criteria as well.  Most of our techniques were to hurt, maim or damage people, that is, they were designed from the gitgo to do just that.  Most we would have to stop when used against a training partner so as not to damage, or would have to tell the partner what we were going to do so they could flow into it.  It was that devastating if used as it was intended.  But some techniques could be used for pain compliance too.

I doubt that most, if any martial arts, would not meet your criteria, depending on how they were taught.  Even the much maligned sport TKD surely must be able to be used aggressively and appear to be brutal in application, and the practitioner to be vicious.


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## Jenna (Sep 26, 2016)

tongue-fu is a brutal art if it is used in a damage-inflicting way


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 26, 2016)

Jow Ga is the most dangerous.  That's why I have to hold back my punches everything I spar.  It'll be difficult to explain why students heads are exploding.


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## Ironbear24 (Sep 26, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> Jow Ga is the most dangerous.  That's why I have to hold back my punches everything I spar.  It'll be difficult to explain why students heads are exploding.



That would also be horrible for business if you kill everyone who signs up.


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## Buka (Sep 26, 2016)

Toss up - Ameri-do-te or Sinanju.


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## Ironbear24 (Sep 26, 2016)

I am too much of a sissy for ameridote.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 26, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> That would also be horrible for business if you kill everyone who signs up.


Yep.. tell me about it.  For like 5 months now I've been wondering why my class mates haven't been showing up.  Then I  thought.. oh yeah.. I forget Kate's head exploded just last week and the week before that I had to wipe Stevens brains off the walls. So they probably won't come back any more. 
Sometimes it's just hard to keep up with  who lived, who got crippled, and who didn't make after taking one of my Jow Ga punches... lol


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 26, 2016)

Buka said:


> Toss up - Ameri-do-te or Sinanju.



WRONG!!!!!!
it is Ambojitsu


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## Headhunter (Sep 26, 2016)

Any martial art is brutal heck a thug on the street throwing sloppy punches at your head is still brutal


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## drop bear (Sep 26, 2016)

Headhunter said:


> Any martial art is brutal heck a thug on the street throwing sloppy punches at your head is still brutal



Head punching causes more deaths than any other martial arts move?


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## Dinkydoo (Sep 26, 2016)

Jenna said:


> tongue-fu is a brutal art if it is used in a damage-inflicting way


Ooh la la


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## Juany118 (Sep 26, 2016)

RTKDCMB said:


> If you are into martial arts to be brutal and vicious then you are in it for the wrong reasons.


It depends on your purpose.  If you are studying it only for self defense I would say it is appropriate.  You need the knowledge to know when to use said techniques but if you want to defend yourself against a larger opponent you often need to make up what you lack in size and strength with brutality and viciousness.

As to the OP there are a number of arts that have said techniques.  One of the few that doesn't make any bones about having them though are the Filipino Martial Arts...hell they call their empty hand style "dirty boxing".  

Again, not to say it's the only one, just one of the few that can be pretty upfront about it.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk


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## KangTsai (Sep 26, 2016)

Any martial art can be brutal to equal degrees.


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## Juany118 (Sep 26, 2016)

KangTsai said:


> Any martial art can be brutal to equal degrees.


Agreed but to me brutal, in this context, is more about... "Attitude" and expression vs application if that makes sense because in the end anything designed to harm another person is brutal.


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## KangTsai (Sep 26, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> Agreed but to me brutal, in this context, is more about... "Attitude" and expression vs application if that makes sense because in the end anything designed to harm another person is brutal.


Chinese wushu schools are my nomination then.


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## kuniggety (Sep 27, 2016)

Jenna said:


> tongue-fu is a brutal art if it is used in a damage-inflicting way



I'm a 3rd Dan. I'm training in order to be a full on instructor at 4th. I just need some more training partners.


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## Kong Soo Do (Sep 27, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Anything that does punching.



Punching is more brutal than striking with the elbow?  Or kicking?  Or spiking with the knee?  Or the chin jab?


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## drop bear (Sep 27, 2016)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Punching is more brutal than striking with the elbow?  Or kicking?  Or spiking with the knee?  Or the chin jab?



All brutal. Punching just kills and cripples more people.


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## Kong Soo Do (Sep 27, 2016)

drop bear said:


> All brutal. Punching just kills and cripples more people.



It does?  Is this your opinion or is this an established fact?


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## drop bear (Sep 27, 2016)

Kong Soo Do said:


> It does?  Is this your opinion or is this an established fact?



Expert opinion. from somone who has spent 20 years punching,kneeing,elbowing and not really botherering with chin jabs.


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## Kong Soo Do (Sep 27, 2016)

I see, your expert opinion is that;



drop bear said:


> Punching just kills and cripples more people.



So in your 20 years of experience, how many people have you killed and crippled with your punches?


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## drop bear (Sep 27, 2016)

Kong Soo Do said:


> I see, your expert opinion is that;
> 
> 
> 
> So in your 20 years of experience, how many people have you killed and crippled with your punches?



None.  I am generally pretty careful. But have definitely been involved in a cripplings and even had a one punch death up my way.


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## Headhunter (Sep 27, 2016)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Punching is more brutal than striking with the elbow?  Or kicking?  Or spiking with the knee?  Or the chin jab?


Punches are the most common cause of death in fights. Elbows you have to get in close to use them so less likely than a punch which you can use at distant. The only way a kick can kill someone is to the head and no ones going to throw a head kick in a street fight. Punches are the most brutal because they're fast and can be hard to see coming a right cross is harder to defend than a kick


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## KangTsai (Sep 27, 2016)

Headhunter said:


> Punches are the most common cause of death in fights. Elbows you have to get in close to use them so less likely than a punch which you can use at distant. The only way a kick can kill someone is to the head and no ones going to throw a head kick in a street fight. Punches are the most brutal because they're fast and can be hard to see coming a right cross is harder to defend than a kick


It's generally not the concussion from the punch that causes death, but the impact of your head hitting the ground as you fall. Alternatively you could bleed to death if one of your organs are busted from a hard punch.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 27, 2016)

KangTsai said:


> Chinese wushu schools are my nomination then.


Are you talking about traditional wushu, or the modern performance wushu created and established by the Maoist government in the 1950s?


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## KangTsai (Sep 27, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> Are you talking about traditional wushu, or the modern performance wushu created and established by the Maoist government in the 1950s?


Whichever one has the scariest kids.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 27, 2016)

KangTsai said:


> Whichever one has the scariest kids.


Then it simply depends on the school.


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## Juany118 (Sep 27, 2016)

KangTsai said:


> It's generally not the concussion from the punch that causes death, but the impact of your head hitting the ground as you fall. Alternatively you could bleed to death if one of your organs are busted from a hard punch.



Exactly.  If a properly used elbow strike hits it is actually more damaging but even those do not easily kill by any stretch of the imagination.  The easiest way to think about it is this.  Typically death from a head blow (if it didn't crush the skull itself) occurs when either the carotid or jugular is severed internally by the impact or the brain stem is served.  This however requires the amount of force typically seen in automobile accidents.  However falling straight back and striking the back of the skull... even then the NIH produced a study that related the following in an abstract based on a study of over 800 different standing fall ICU admissions and/or death...

"Injury Severity Score, age >or=60 years, blood-alcohol level greater than 80 mg/dL, warfarin use, systolic blood pressure <100 mm Hg, and Glasgow Coma Scale <or=12. These risk factors had an additive effect for propensity for brain injury, ICU admission, and death. Increasing Injury Severity Score and use of warfarin had an independent association with mortality."

The blood alcohol level seems especially relevant due to the AU case.


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## RTKDCMB (Sep 28, 2016)

drop bear said:


> All brutal. Punching just kills and cripples more people.


That could have something to do with them being the most common type of strike used in street fights by far.


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## Tez3 (Sep 28, 2016)

RTKDCMB said:


> That could have something to do with them being the most common type of strike used in street fights by far.



It would indicate that it's more stupidity that is deadly rather than any particular martial art. Stupidity will get you dead more often than 'deadly' martial arts.


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## oftheherd1 (Sep 28, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> Exactly.  If a properly used elbow strike hits it is actually more damaging but even those do not easily kill by any stretch of the imagination.  The easiest way to think about it is this.  Typically death from a head blow (if it didn't crush the skull itself) occurs when either the carotid or jugular is severed internally by the impact or the brain stem is served.  This however requires the amount of force typically seen in automobile accidents.  However falling straight back and striking the back of the skull... even then the NIH produced a study that related the following in an abstract based on a study of over 800 different standing fall ICU admissions and/or death...
> 
> "Injury Severity Score, age >or=60 years, blood-alcohol level greater than 80 mg/dL, warfarin use, systolic blood pressure <100 mm Hg, and Glasgow Coma Scale <or=12. These risk factors had an additive effect for propensity for brain injury, ICU admission, and death. Increasing Injury Severity Score and use of warfarin had an independent association with mortality."
> 
> The blood alcohol level seems especially relevant due to the AU case.



That's so neat.  Wish I could understand it.  

But overall, my belief is that an art's brutality isn't defined by punches or kicks, most arts have those, however more or less they apply them.  But rather by the art's intent or willingness to maim, dislocate joints, or otherwise cause excessive pain, or turn an opponent's weapon against them.


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## Tez3 (Sep 28, 2016)

oftheherd1 said:


> That's so neat.  Wish I could understand it.
> 
> But overall, my belief is that an art's brutality isn't defined by punches or kicks, most arts have those, however more or less they apply them.  But rather by the art's intent or willingness to maim, dislocate joints, or otherwise cause excessive pain, or turn an opponent's weapon against them.



However it's not the art though is it? It's the person who is willing to maim, cause pain etc. All the arts have the techniques you can use to do these but it's the willingness of the person to use them.


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## oftheherd1 (Sep 28, 2016)

Headhunter said:


> Punches are the most common cause of death in fights. Elbows you have to get in close to use them so less likely than a punch which you can use at distant. *The only way a kick can kill someone is to the head* and no ones going to throw a head kick in a street fight. Punches are the most brutal because they're fast and can be hard to see coming a right cross is harder to defend than a kick



The last time I was in Korea, one KATUSA sergeant kicked a newby KATUSA in the sternum, driving the xiphoid process into the heart, causing his immediate death.  Organs can also be ruptured causing death if they are hit just right.

Granted those are much less common, but don't assume only injuries to the head can cause death.  Have you ever been taught to punch or kick a kidney, the liver, or heart plexus?


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## oftheherd1 (Sep 28, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> However it's not the art though is it? It's the person who is willing to maim, cause pain etc. All the arts have the techniques you can use to do these but it's the willingness of the person to use them.



It can be.  But are there no grappling or striking arts you know of that routinely teach damaging an opponent in a real fight?  In the Hapkido I learned, many, I guess most, of the techniques did just that.  And we were only taught to treat practice opponents carefully.


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## Headhunter (Sep 28, 2016)

oftheherd1 said:


> The last time I was in Korea, one KATUSA sergeant kicked a newby KATUSA in the sternum, driving the xiphoid process into the heart, causing his immediate death.  Organs can also be ruptured causing death if they are hit just right.
> 
> Granted those are much less common, but don't assume only injuries to the head can cause death.  Have you ever been taught to punch or kick a kidney, the liver, or heart plexus?


Yes I have thank you


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## Tez3 (Sep 28, 2016)

oftheherd1 said:


> It can be.  But are there no grappling or striking arts you know of that routinely teach damaging an opponent in a real fight?  In the Hapkido I learned, many, I guess most, of the techniques did just that.  And we were only taught to treat practice opponents carefully.



That's again down to the human element, it's the manner of teaching not the martial art itself that makes it dangerous. You could have those same instructors with their outlook teach any style of martial art and have the same effect, you could have instructors who teach pulling punches, no touch sparring etc teach Hapkido and they would make it a very 'soft style'. There's nothing in Hapkido that is more dangerous than any other martial art, it is the way of teaching ie the human element that makes it more 'deadly'. 
You are talking of teaching methods not the style itself.


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## wingchun100 (Sep 28, 2016)

RTKDCMB said:


> If you are into martial arts to be brutal and vicious then you are in it for the wrong reasons.


 
I would say it depends on your situation. If you live in a violent neighborhood and can't afford to move, then you might need to be vicious.


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## oftheherd1 (Sep 28, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> That's again down to the human element, it's the manner of teaching not the martial art itself that makes it dangerous. You could have those same instructors with their outlook teach any style of martial art and have the same effect, you could have instructors who teach pulling punches, no touch sparring etc teach Hapkido and they would make it a very 'soft style'. There's nothing in Hapkido that is more dangerous than any other martial art, it is the way of teaching ie the human element that makes it more 'deadly'.
> You are talking of teaching methods not the style itself.



First, I am just a milk-toast.  I am not trying to say I am Johnny BA,  running amuck, strewing dead bodies along the streets and filling ER's with the halt and maimed.  I think most Hapkido is taught very similarly to how it was taught to me; that is, the techniques are meant to take away an opponent's will or ability to fight.


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## Tez3 (Sep 28, 2016)

oftheherd1 said:


> First, I am just a milk-toast.  I am not trying to say I am Johnny BA,  running amuck, strewing dead bodies along the streets and filling ER's with the halt and maimed.  I think most Hapkido is taught very similarly to how it was taught to me; that is, the techniques are meant to take away an opponent's will or ability to fight.



I'm don't know what you mean by 'milk toast'.

I'm also not sure if we are talking about the same thing. My point is that all the martial arts I know have 'deadly' techniques ( most techniques are variations on the same one in reality) however the method of teaching can determine whether those techniques are seen as 'deadly' or not. Look at punches, for easiness let's go the boxing way and call it a 'cross', now it can be taught punching into air as an exercise for fitness, it can be taught as a pulled punch as in no touch sparring or it can be taught as in boxing as a potential KO. The punch is the same one but the method of teaching is different so is the perception of the punch.
Hapkido can be taught in different ways if people wanted to, the art remains the same one so the 'deadliness' is down to the attitude of those teaching not the art itself. It's the point many make about TKD as well, taught as an Olympic sport is one way, taught as fitness for kids it's another way and taught as a deadly maiming art is another yet all the techniques are the same, the only difference is the way humans teach... the human attitude makes an art deadly or not.


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## drop bear (Sep 28, 2016)

RTKDCMB said:


> That could have something to do with them being the most common type of strike used in street fights by far.



Chicken or egg?

is it brutal because it is common or is it common because it is brutal.


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 28, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> I'm don't know what you mean by 'milk toast'.


I believe he meant *milquetoast*.


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## Touch Of Death (Sep 28, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I believe he meant *milquetoast*.


Milk toast is an accepted American slang. When we don't want to be all Frenchy French.


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## Tez3 (Sep 28, 2016)

Touch Of Death said:


> Milk toast is an accepted American slang. When we don't want to be all Frenchy French.



Ah, you mean wuss.


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## Touch Of Death (Sep 28, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Ah, you mean wuss.


Yeah! So it would be like a double negative.


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## Touch Of Death (Sep 28, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Ah, you mean wuss.


Actually French Canadians all sound like lumberjacks, to us. Sissy lumberjacks, but lumberjacks just the same. Who messes with lumberjacks?


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## Tez3 (Sep 28, 2016)

Touch Of Death said:


> Actually French Canadians all sound like lumberjacks, to us. Sissy lumberjacks, but lumberjacks just the same. Who messes with lumberjacks?



Oh you just had to say that didn't you, well you've asked for it now.


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## Tez3 (Sep 28, 2016)

On a very sad note though about the Pythons. Michael Palin writes emotional post for Terry Jones following announcement that Python star has dementia


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## Juany118 (Sep 28, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Oh you just had to say that didn't you, well you've asked for it now.


You beat me to it... lol


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## Tez3 (Sep 29, 2016)

Touch Of Death said:


> Milk toast is an accepted American slang. When we don't want to be all Frenchy French.



I looked up the etymology, it's not French at all, it's very American from a comic strip   'Lait' is French for milk and 'pain grille' is toast.


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## oftheherd1 (Sep 29, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> I'm don't know what you mean by 'milk toast'.
> 
> I'm also not sure if we are talking about the same thing. My point is that all the martial arts I know have 'deadly' techniques ( most techniques are variations on the same one in reality) however the method of teaching can determine whether those techniques are seen as 'deadly' or not. Look at punches, for easiness let's go the boxing way and call it a 'cross', now it can be taught punching into air as an exercise for fitness, it can be taught as a pulled punch as in no touch sparring or it can be taught as in boxing as a potential KO. The punch is the same one but the method of teaching is different so is the perception of the punch.
> Hapkido can be taught in different ways if people wanted to, the art remains the same one so the 'deadliness' is down to the attitude of those teaching not the art itself. It's the point many make about TKD as well, taught as an Olympic sport is one way, taught as fitness for kids it's another way and taught as a deadly maiming art is another yet all the techniques are the same, the only difference is the way humans teach... the human attitude makes an art deadly or not.



Toast in milk gets soggy and lacks form or strength.  Applied to a person it means someone who is weak and/or non-aggressive.

I think I see what you mean, and in general I can agree.  Any martial art can surely be used in a brutal manner.  I suspect in times past, it was expected that most would be intended to hurt of kill an opponent.  In more gentile society these days, that would generally be frowned upon unless used in self defense against a deadly attack.



Tez3 said:


> Hapkido can be taught in different ways if people wanted to, the art remains the same one so the 'deadliness' is down to the attitude of those teaching not the art itself.



Surprisingly, there are techniques that are known to be able to cause death, but few of the techniques are deadly.  And I never said _Hapkido was taught as a deadly art_.  Some techniques would no doubt be considered brutal, but not all or even most, deadly.  But most techniques are intended to manipulate joints.  That is why I suggest that Hapkido is more brutal; the intent of most techniques is to cause pain and/or damage.

Granted some can be stopped before a joint is dislocated, in fact that has to be with a practice opponent.  But in a real fight, doing so would leave one at a greater disadvantage to attack.




Tez3 said:


> That's again down to the human element, it's the manner of teaching not the martial art itself that makes it dangerous. You could have those same instructors with their outlook teach any style of martial art and have the same effect, you could have instructors who teach pulling punches, no touch sparring etc *teach Hapkido and they would make it a very 'soft style'.* There's nothing in Hapkido that is more dangerous than any other martial art, it is the way of teaching ie the human element that makes it more 'deadly'.
> You are talking of teaching methods not the style itself.



I think that is called Aikido.    And that is not a put down to Aikido.  But from what I have seen, Aikido just wants an attacker to go away.  If they get hurt during a technique, oh well.  But the intent is just to defend until the attacker gets tired and leaves.  If I am wrong in that, I hope some of our Aikido practitioners will step up and correct me.

Again, let me point out that I never said Hapkido was a "deadly" martial art.  You are correct that most if not all martial arts can be used in a deadly manner.


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## Tez3 (Sep 29, 2016)

oftheherd1 said:


> Toast in milk gets soggy and lacks form or strength. Applied to a person it means someone who is weak and/or non-aggressive.



As I said I looked it up and it comes from an American comic strip being the name of someone who was a wuss. It's not French but a parody of French. World Wide Words: Milquetoast



oftheherd1 said:


> And I never said _Hapkido was taught as a deadly art_



I know but the title of the thread is 'the most brutal' ie 'deadly so it fits with the thread.


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## Touch Of Death (Sep 29, 2016)

oftheherd1 said:


> Toast in milk gets soggy and lacks form or strength.  Applied to a person it means someone who is weak and/or non-aggressive.
> 
> I think I see what you mean, and in general I can agree.  Any martial art can surely be used in a brutal manner.  I suspect in times past, it was expected that most would be intended to hurt of kill an opponent.  In more gentile society these days, that would generally be frowned upon unless used in self defense against a deadly attack.
> 
> ...


I think I understand enough to know you are mistaken. The whole point of those arts, on the street, is to slam people into things. Them getting tired is secondary, at best.


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## oftheherd1 (Sep 29, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> As I said I looked it up and it comes from an American comic strip being the name of someone who was a wuss. It's not French but a parody of French. World Wide Words: Milquetoast
> 
> 
> 
> I know but the title of the thread is 'the most brutal' ie 'deadly so it fits with the thread.



That is probably the disconnect.  I don't think brutal means deadly.  To me, deadly could be brutal, but brutal would not have to be deadly.  Therein lies the rub.


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## elder999 (Sep 29, 2016)

This question comes up, from time to time.

The answer is always the same

The most brutal and effective martial art dates back to 8th century China.


It is [i[kabumei[/i], the art of the sharpened grenade.

_Done correctly, no can defend!




_


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## Tez3 (Sep 29, 2016)

oftheherd1 said:


> That is probably the disconnect.  I don't think brutal means deadly.  To me, deadly could be brutal, but brutal would not have to be deadly.  Therein lies the rub.



I don't see a disconnect.


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## oftheherd1 (Sep 29, 2016)

Touch Of Death said:


> I think I understand enough to know you are mistaken. The whole point of those arts, on the street, is to slam people into things. Them getting tired is secondary, at best.



Well, as I said, I am not an Aikidoist, so I could be mistaken, and for that reason I asked any who are Aikidoist to correct me if I am wrong.  Are you an Aikidoist?  Are you a Hapkidoist?  Have you studied my style?  If you aren't either, on what basis do you say what you do?


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## oftheherd1 (Sep 29, 2016)

elder999 said:


> This question comes up, from time to time.
> 
> The answer is always the same
> 
> ...



Thanks Elder, all is now clear.


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## HW1 (Sep 29, 2016)

oftheherd1 said:


> The last time I was in Korea, one KATUSA sergeant kicked a newby KATUSA in the sternum, driving the xiphoid process into the heart, causing his immediate death.



As someone with some medical schooling, I call BS on this story.


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## oftheherd1 (Sep 29, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> I don't see a disconnect.



I thought I did.  If not, I don't see a reason to continue.  We each have our understandings.  Perhaps we can just leave it at that?


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## HW1 (Sep 29, 2016)

oftheherd1 said:


> Well, as I said, I am not an Aikidoist, so I could be mistaken, and for that reason I asked any who are Aikidoist to correct me if I am wrong.  Are you an Aikidoist?  Are you a Hapkidoist?  Have you studied my style?  If you aren't either, on what basis do you say what you do?



Not sure what Hapkido practitioners call themselves but an Aikido practitioner is called an Aikidoka.


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## oftheherd1 (Sep 29, 2016)

HW1 said:


> As someone with some medical schooling, I call BS on this story.



Why?

Oh, while I am at it, does your schooling include forensic pathology?


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## Headhunter (Sep 29, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> As I said I looked it up and it comes from an American comic strip being the name of someone who was a wuss. It's not French but a parody of French. World Wide Words: Milquetoast
> 
> 
> 
> I know but the title of the thread is 'the most brutal' ie 'deadly so it fits with the thread.


Right this thread has totally passed me by I keep getting alerts for it and then seeing discussions about soggy toast or whatever lol


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## HW1 (Sep 29, 2016)

oftheherd1 said:


> Why?
> 
> Oh, while I am at it, does your schooling include forensic pathology?



No forensic pathology but human anatomy is the same across the board. The xiphoid process is too low to puncture the heart. The liver maybe, but the heart unlikely. This is kinda like the urban legend of striking the sinus cavity into the brain.


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## Touch Of Death (Sep 29, 2016)

oftheherd1 said:


> Well, as I said, I am not an Aikidoist, so I could be mistaken, and for that reason I asked any who are Aikidoist to correct me if I am wrong.  Are you an Aikidoist?  Are you a Hapkidoist?  Have you studied my style?  If you aren't either, on what basis do you say what you do?


First of all Kenpo used to be called Aikido-Kenpo; so, I know enough of the concepts to use them. The ground is your friend. Introduce all your enemies to it.


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## Tez3 (Sep 29, 2016)

oftheherd1 said:


> I thought I did.  If not, I don't see a reason to continue.  We each have our understandings.  Perhaps we can just leave it at that?



It's not an argument, though you came up with all the 'milk toast' stuff which isn't relevant and seems to have annoyed one poster.
The premise of the whole thread is flawed anyway.


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## Touch Of Death (Sep 29, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> It's not an argument, though you came up with all the 'milk toast' stuff which isn't relevant and seems to have annoyed one poster.
> The premise of the whole thread is flawed anyway.


This is true. All the martial arts are supposed to kill people, against one concern, or several others.


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## Touch Of Death (Sep 29, 2016)

Weapon arts are the same, Drive The Weapon To The Ground. Put The bad Guy On The Ground.


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## oftheherd1 (Sep 29, 2016)

HW1 said:


> No forensic pathology but human anatomy is the same across the board. The xiphoid process is too low to puncture the heart. The liver maybe, but the heart unlikely. This is kinda like the urban legend of striking the sinus cavity into the brain.



Unlikely or not, unfortunately it is not an urban legend.  I talked with the investigator.


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## oftheherd1 (Sep 29, 2016)

Touch Of Death said:


> First of all Kenpo used to be called Aikido-Kenpo; so, I know enough of the concepts to use them. The ground is your friend. Introduce all your enemies to it.



I did not know that so I will take your word for it on Aikido.  We do use a lot of techniques in Hapkido that put our opponents on the ground forcefully.


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## Touch Of Death (Sep 29, 2016)

HW1 said:


> As someone with some medical schooling, I call BS on this story.


If the head were bowed, and he was against a wall, it is possible, some bad chit happened, in there.


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## Touch Of Death (Sep 29, 2016)

oftheherd1 said:


> I did not know that so I will take your word for it on Aikido.  We do use a lot of techniques in Hapkido that put our opponents on the ground forcefully.


It softens the target.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 29, 2016)

Touch Of Death said:


> First of all Kenpo used to be called Aikido-Kenpo; so, I know enough of the concepts to use them. The ground is your friend. Introduce all your enemies to it.


Hmmm...really don't think that is true.

I've seen reference to Kenpo-jujitsu, but that may have been a marketing thing, since jujitsu was a familiar term in the continental US in the 1950s, and Kenpo was not.

The earlier Kenpo done in Hawaii, I've never heard of it attaching the term aikido.  Aikido and every version of Kenpo that I have ever seen any little bit of, are quite different methods.


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## Touch Of Death (Sep 29, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> Hmmm...really don't think that is true.
> 
> I've seen reference to Kenpo-jujitsu, but that may have been a marketing thing, since jujitsu was a familiar term in the continental US in the 1950s, and Kenpo was not.
> 
> The earlier Kenpo done in Hawaii, I've never heard of it attaching the term aikido.  Aikido and every version of Kenpo that I have ever seen any little bit of, are quite different methods.


That isn't what I have heard but the context was that everything is kenpo (kempo).


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## Flying Crane (Sep 29, 2016)

Touch Of Death said:


> That isn't what I have heard but the context was that everything is kenpo (kempo).


Yeah, I don't agree with that view either.  I've seen it expressed, but I don't agree with it.


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## Touch Of Death (Sep 29, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> Yeah, I don't agree with that view either.  I've seen it expressed, but I don't agree with it.


If it has a leader who laid down the law on what is and isn't Aikido, it is a kempo.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 29, 2016)

Touch Of Death said:


> If it has a leader who laid down the law on what is and isn't Aikido, it is a kempo.


I'm not following what you are saying here.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 29, 2016)

I guess Jow Ga Kung Fu wasn't the answer to the OP


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## Touch Of Death (Sep 29, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> I'm not following what you are saying here.


While you may have some pre-conceive notion of Kempo, and what it means, it only means martial art, or more specifically, the doctrine, of that martial art.


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## Touch Of Death (Sep 29, 2016)

Touch Of Death said:


> While you may have some pre-conceive notion of Kempo, and what it means, it only means martial art, or more specifically, the doctrine, of that martial art.


Parameters defining the "Po"


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## Flying Crane (Sep 29, 2016)

Touch Of Death said:


> While you may have some pre-conceive notion of Kempo, and what it means, it only means martial art, or more specifically, the doctrine, of that martial art.


Well yes, but no.

Sure, it's a generic term at its base, but it has become attached, as you know, to a number of specific methods and systems.

There is a lot of technical overlap between different systems.  Even techniques that are not formally part of the curriculum of a system can often fit in and find a place if one wishes to adopt it. 

But a good system is not just a collection of techniques.  A good system is built upon principles, and how those principles are manifest within the practice methods can be vastly different from one system to the next.  So not everything fits, and much that can fit often needs to be modified in some way.

So, I disagree with the notion that it's all the same, and I disagree that Kenpo is aikido.


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## Touch Of Death (Sep 29, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> Well yes, but no.
> 
> Sure, it's a generic term at its base, but it has become attached, as you know, to a number of specific methods and systems.
> 
> ...


I would call it a path you can take in your Kenpo, but I also agree it has become a specific thing to most people.


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## Touch Of Death (Sep 29, 2016)

However, to the Japanese it is plural. It means, any given doctrine.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 29, 2016)

Touch Of Death said:


> I would call it a path you can take in your Kenpo, but I also agree it has become a specific thing to most people.


Well there needs to be a path, or it is a Frankenstein's monster and a mish-mash.  There needs to be a consistent methodology.  If that is in place, then other things can be brought into the mix if they are compatible with the methodology.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 29, 2016)

Touch Of Death said:


> However, to the Japanese it is plural. It means, any given doctrine.


What does?


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## Touch Of Death (Sep 29, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> Well there needs to be a path, or it is a Frankenstein's monster and a mish-mash.  There needs to be a consistent methodology.  If that is in place, then other things can be brought into the mix if they are compatible with the methodology.


I agree, that as an individual, you should do that, but the word, kempo, is something, that references the Law(s) or doctrine of each art you may want to study. If you study from Joe's Kenpo, it is going have a different focus than Dave's Kenpo, down the street. That is OK. It becomes not OK when you want it to be all the same.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 29, 2016)

Touch Of Death said:


> I agree, that as an individual, you should do that, but the word, kempo, is something, that references the Law(s) or doctrine of each art you may want to study. If you study from Joe's Kenpo, it is going have a different focus than Dave's Kenpo, down the street. That is OK. It becomes not OK when you want it to be all the same.


It also becomes not ok when you want it to become everything.


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## Touch Of Death (Sep 29, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> It also becomes not ok when you want it to become everything.


I don't have to want it. It already is.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 30, 2016)

Touch Of Death said:


> I don't have to want it. It already is.


I'll differ there.


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## TSDTexan (Oct 4, 2016)

HW1 said:


> Not sure what Hapkido practitioners call themselves but an Aikido practitioner is called an Aikidoka.


Hapkidoin.

To say an exponent of karate is a karate-ka,
In Korean, and exponent of karate is a hongsoodo-in.

Empty = Kara = Hong
Hand = Te = Soo
Way = Do = Do
-Ist, or -er (suffix) = Ka = In

Peter Goldsbury: "In Japanese ‘ka' is a very common suffix, with vastly different meanings, and the way of writing it for ‘aikidouka' is usually 家, or simply か (the _kana_form). The main meaning of this term is house or family. In the average dictionary there are many terms with the 家 suffix and the English equivalent is generally ‘--er', as in ‘writer', or ‘ist', as in ‘artist'. The general sense is the doer of an activity on a regular basis."


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## hoshin1600 (Oct 4, 2016)

Touch Of Death said:


> First of all Kenpo used to be called Aikido-Kenpo; so, I know enough of the concepts to use them. The ground is your friend. Introduce all your enemies to it.


i think your talking out your rear end...kenpo was never called aikido-kenpo.  at least as a common term, maybe some guy somewhere called it that at one point in time while dinking a few beers to many,  and you happened to be the one guy that heard it and took it as a fact. or your instructor lied to you because he felt insecure about steven segal and his movies.




Touch Of Death said:


> That isn't what I have heard but the context was that everything is kenpo (kempo).


no everything is not kenpo. 



Touch Of Death said:


> If it has a leader who laid down the law on what is and isn't Aikido, it is a kempo.


i have no idea what your trying to say here but aikido is not kenpo,  its aikido. 



Touch Of Death said:


> While you may have some pre-conceive notion of Kempo, and what it means, it only means martial art, or more specifically, the doctrine, of that martial art.


lets put this notion to rest please. 
the common Japanese kanji  for kenpo means "fist" and "law"  or law of the fist.   to explain the term law would take me forever in this format of internet so we can stick with the one word "fist"  the kanji for ken in kenpo is the same kanji that would be used for a chinese quan or chinese boxing style. so in a way kenpo would be a general term for any chinese based boxing "fist" style which karate is.  however aikido is not a chinese art or a method of boxing so no aikido is not kenpo and kenpo does not mean "everything to do with any type of fighting under the sun"   only fist-boxing styles that originate from and trace their lineage back to china.


> *"Kenpō* (拳法?) is the name of several Japanese martial arts. The word kenpō is a Japanese translation of the Chinese word "_quán fǎ_". "


Kenpō - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

even wiki got it right.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 4, 2016)

hoshin1600 said:


> i think your talking out your rear end...kenpo was never called aikido-kenpo.  at least as a common term, maybe some guy somewhere called it that at one point in time while dinking a few beers to many,  and you happened to be the one guy that heard it and took it as a fact. or your instructor lied to you because he felt insecure about steven segal and his movies.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Everything is from China, as far as MA is concerned. So are the people. They came from somewhere. (OK Japanese are from Korea, but that is a modern term for a modern country. It's China from here.


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## hoshin1600 (Oct 4, 2016)

Where is that bunny with the pancake on its head when you need him.


Touch Of Death said:


> Everything is from China, as far as MA is concerned. So are the people. They came from somewhere. (OK Japanese are from Korea, but that is a modern term for a modern country. It's China from here.


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## hoshin1600 (Oct 4, 2016)

So the original Greek pankration was from China too?  How about the Indonesian arts?  
Little problem with you logic....some things pre date kung fu. Including the Greeks, Indonesian fighting and Japanese koryu.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 4, 2016)

Touch Of Death said:


> Everything is from China, as far as MA is concerned. So are the people. They came from somewhere. (OK Japanese are from Korea, but that is a modern term for a modern country. It's China from here.





hoshin1600 said:


> Where is that bunny with the pancake on its head when you need him.


India before that. Maybe Africa before that. "You" didn't invent karate.


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## drop bear (Oct 4, 2016)

Touch Of Death said:


> Everything is from China, as far as MA is concerned. So are the people. They came from somewhere. (OK Japanese are from Korea, but that is a modern term for a modern country. It's China from here.



Ok 2400 bc the hasan tomb in egypt. 






SCHOLA FORUM • View topic - Egyptian Wrestling from Beni Hasan


Now Just because the chinese didn't write stuff on their walls doesn't meen they didn't invent all martial arts. But they didn't invent all martial arts.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 4, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Ok 2400 bc the hasan tomb in egypt.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Of course everyone knows that the Indian Monk Daruma, saw the Chinese monks were falling asleep during meditation, and gave them the martial arts to study. Africa was or was not the source. it could be India or Lemuria, though.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 4, 2016)

Touch Of Death said:


> Of course everyone knows that the Indian Monk Daruma, saw the Chinese monks were falling asleep during meditation, and gave them the martial arts to study. Africa was or was not the source. it could be India or Lemuria, though.


Of course it could be all from the North.


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## drop bear (Oct 4, 2016)

Touch Of Death said:


> Of course everyone knows that the Indian Monk Daruma, saw the Chinese monks were falling asleep during meditation, and gave them the martial arts to study. Africa was or was not the source. it could be India or Lemuria, though.



It was invented in Australia. we just dont go on about it.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 4, 2016)

drop bear said:


> It was invented in Australia. we just dont go on about it.


If you mean the RH negatives. I'll buy that.  in fact, you might be on to something, since they were there before the Aboriginals,


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## hoshin1600 (Oct 4, 2016)

We are not talking the history of martial arts. The discussion was about the word and use of the Japanese "ken"   karate could have been created by Cain and able or the neanderthal doesn't matter. But the word kenpo means chinese boxing art.  If you find issue with that take it up with the Japanese and tell them they are using their word wrong.


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## msmitht (Oct 4, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> WRONG!!!!!!
> it is Ambojitsu


Wrong. Ambojitsu is but a shadow. Shinanju is the sun. Most intelligent people know this...


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## drop bear (Oct 4, 2016)

hoshin1600 said:


> We are not talking the history of martial arts. The discussion was about the word and use of the Japanese "ken"   karate could have been created by Cain and able or the neanderthal doesn't matter. But the word kenpo means chinese boxing art.  If you find issue with that take it up with the Japanese and tell them they are using their word wrong.



Kempo or Kenpo - Which is Correct; and Does it Matter?


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 4, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Kempo or Kenpo - Which is Correct; and Does it Matter?


It doesn't really matter, but the Japanese say Kempo.


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## TSDTexan (Oct 5, 2016)

Touch Of Death said:


> It doesn't really matter, but the Japanese say Kempo.



Point of trivia!
*Kwonbeop* is the term for unarmed methods in Korean martial arts as developed in theJoseon era (15th to 19th centuries). 

It is the Korean rendition of the Chinese _Quan fa_ (拳法).


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## TSDTexan (Oct 5, 2016)

msmitht said:


> Wrong. Ambojitsu is but a shadow. Shinanju is the sun. Most intelligent people know this...



신안주


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## KangTsai (Oct 5, 2016)

Touch Of Death said:


> Everything is from China, as far as MA is concerned. So are the people. They came from somewhere. (OK Japanese are from Korea, but that is a modern term for a modern country. It's China from here.


Woah there, only the language derives from China. Korean people share Mongolian genetics and Japanese people are a mix of exotic Chinese and Germanic people.


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## Tez3 (Oct 5, 2016)

KangTsai said:


> Woah there, only the language derives from China. Korean people share Mongolian genetics and Japanese people are a mix of exotic Chinese and Germanic people.



I know little about this but I'm backing you to know your own heritage and will happily take your word for this.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 5, 2016)

KangTsai said:


> Woah there, only the language derives from China. Korean people share Mongolian genetics and Japanese people are a mix of exotic Chinese and Germanic people.


The Korean People of today, sure, but the people who invaded Japan, were from Korea, then.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 5, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> I know little about this but I'm backing you to know your own heritage and will happily take your word for this.


They wouldn't say German, possibly Germanic, but that hasn't been proven. All they know is that they were Caucasians.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 5, 2016)

msmitht said:


> Wrong. Ambojitsu is but a shadow. Shinanju is the sun. Most intelligent people know this...



You force me to bring out the big guns...... ALL pale in comparison to the power...the utter viciousness and brutality....on the dark side..... that is XUEFU!!!!!!!


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## msmitht (Oct 5, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> You force me to bring out the big guns...... ALL pale in comparison to the power...the utter viciousness and brutality....on the dark side..... that is XUEFU!!!!!!!


Oh yeah? Well I know the Crane technique. If I do right you no can defend.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 5, 2016)

*You don't know the POWER of*





*Xuefu*​


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 5, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> *You don't know the POWER of*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Bless you!


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 5, 2016)

Touch Of Death said:


> Bless you!


By the way, every time I read one of your posts and get to the signature, I want to just click "reply" and type, "Nyaaa!"


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 6, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> By the way, every time I read one of your posts and get to the signature, I want to just click "reply" and type, "Nyaaa!"


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 6, 2016)

Touch Of Death said:


>


We have the entire series on DVD, plus the three sets of songs that were released on CD. Watched a couple of episodes last night - unfortunately none featuring Marjorie.


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