# no touch knock out??



## lonekimono10

Now i want to let everyone know that i have an open mine, so what i;m about to say i don't want anyone to think(there he's goes again)
 now the other night my son called me into the living room to look at the tv show that was on, it was about the martial arts and the people in it.
    "thats cool" but they had this segment with George Dillman(a good friend)
    now my son turns around to me and said "is that true?" 
    what he was doing was telling people that he can knock them out without touching them, by using *chi*,i hope someone else saw this.
    he had these people holding up this sheet, (he was on one side and the person he was to knock out was on the other side)
    he stood there with his hands moving around and then you heard a *kia*
    and the person on the other side was on the floor:idunno:
    he also told the reporter that he was in a starbucks and the line was long so he moved them using his *chi.
    give me some feedback*

    now  i'm not saying anything  bad about *
    dilman's kempo.
*


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## BlackCatBonz

there is another thread with the video on it. there was some science guy at the end that leon jay tried to knock out and it didnt work, dillman went on to say you could defeat it by wiggling your toes or having your tongue in the wrong part of your mouth. i guess he sets his people up by telling them to place their tongues and toes in the right spots.


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## Martialscientist

Now I understand, why he would step on their toes first. lol


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## shesulsa

Try running a search on this site for "Dillman" and see how many threads already exist that discuss him and his no-touch KO.


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## Sapper6

lonekimono10 said:
			
		

> now  i'm not saying anything  bad about *
> dilman's kempo.
> *



i will...it's fake and so is he.  it seems as though he's watched a few too many dragonball z shows with his young lad.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

lonekimono10 said:
			
		

> he also told the reporter that he was in a starbucks and the line was long so he moved them using his *chi.
> *



If he had gone to a real coffee shop instead of a McBeans like Starbucks, he would not have been able to move the line with his Chi.


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## evenflow1121

I saw it, and even if true, how practical would it be?  You would have to sit there and focus to knock the guy out, by that time someone can land 11 punches in my face.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

evenflow1121 said:
			
		

> I saw it, and even if true, how practical would it be?  You would have to sit there and focus to knock the guy out, by that time someone can land 11 punches in my face.



Or you would get to the front of the line at Starbucks...


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## swiftpete

If it was true it would be a pretty fantastic skill though eh? 
He'd basically have jedi powers!
Using it in conjunction with strikes is how i understand energy/chi to actually have a real (painful!) effect.


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## evenflow1121

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> Or you would get to the front of the line at Starbucks...


Lol, I guess then it would have its practicalities.


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## Sapper6

if no touch knock-outs really worked, we'd all be out of jobs and hobbies.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

Sapper6 said:
			
		

> if no touch knock-outs really worked, we'd all be out of jobs and hobbies.



Yes, but think how much easier the housekeeping would be...


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## shesulsa

I encourage this kind of discussion to take place in the Horror Stories section where it belongs.


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## lonekimono10

what do you think is going on inside his head to do and say these things:idunno:,and did you see the guy with the parker crest trying to do it with him?
  one thing i *did see* is that all the people who went to the floor was his students, or could i be wrong?and what about the next segment, they had people who said that they could* fly*, now that was funny the way they were jumping around.


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## shesulsa

*MODERATOR NOTE:
 *THREAD MOVED TO HORROR STORIES WHERE IT AND ALL OTHER THREADS ALONG THESE LINES BELONG

 *G Ketchmark / shesulsa
 *MT Senior Moderator


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

shesulsa said:
			
		

> I encourage this kind of discussion to take place in the Horror Stories section where it belongs.



With our combined Chi energy, we should be able to move it there.


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## arnisador

It's nonsense. Stage magic.

There are several older threads about this.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

arnisador said:
			
		

> There are several older threads about this.



Yes, but none with a Starbucks reference.


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## lonekimono10

well i would like to hear from some of *dillmam's people* about this mess,
    oh buy the way Alan, i go to *"dunkin donuts" *i tell you in the moring it's a mad house,but anyway i was thinking lastnight that how come* George dillman*
    did not show any of the *"ufc"* guys this stuff??anyway i'll wait for some of his people to jump in here


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## kenpochad

............


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

lonekimono10 said:
			
		

> well i would like to hear from some of *dillmam's people* about this mess,



I would NOT like to hear from any of those guys.


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## lonekimono10

i still would like to know why he does this stuff??  but i guess they won't say anything, *come on there has got to be someone who can say something about this magic show.*


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## Flatlander

I don't think that it's necessary to bait or otherwise insult people here.  If somebody would like to engage in this discussion in defence of Dillman or his no touch tactics, fine.  If not, insulting them won't compel them to enter into a dialogue with you.


In the meantime, if anyone is so motivated to spend some time researching the reams of stuff that has already been posted here regarding George Dillman and/or the no touch knockout phenomenon, please feel free to peruse these threads:

National Geographic mpeg on Dillman & Co. 

Question about G.Dillman 

ppko & xequat take a look 

Yippiee! More "no touch" knockouts! Yay! 

Dillman

Kyusho Jitsu 

Steve Stewert: No touch knock out? 

More No-Touch Knockouts. 

Dillman vs. TCM

Some of these threads are pretty heated.  Do me a favour and don't post in them.  They're dead.  Let them rest in peace.


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## lonekimono10

Hey flat, listen i'm talking about *dillman's people* ok!!!, 
   and i did not say anything wrong about anyone,get it right please.
   and all the stuff you put on there *some don't work*, and before i forget
   i 'm not trying to get anyone to talk to me about this, just want to know  from his people,*or maybe you are one of his people:idunno:
   so anyway have a good night.
*


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## still learning

Hello, Hypnosis is the same?  At carnivals they will have a guy call up some people and they can make most of them sleep with little commands. Some people are not easy to to this to.

 Does it seems the same for no touch knock-out?  Is this a trick to make it look like something else? ..............after seeing the show by National Geographic.

 You do not see this in China, Japanese and else where? ...........on a large scale? ..............Aloha


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## ppko

Let me chime in real quick, first of all National Geograghic came up to Mr. Dillman telling them that they are believers and wanted to see the "death touch" what they did was show only a small part of what actually took place. While I have to admit the video does not show DKI in good light, NG did that on purpose the way that Mr. Dillman was told that they would do the segment was totally different than what they did. Other than that I really have nothing else to say.


sincerely 
Joe Morris


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

lonekimono10 said:
			
		

> Hey flat, listen i'm talking about *dillman's people* ok!!!,
> and i did not say anything wrong about anyone,get it right please.
> and all the stuff you put on there *some don't work*, and before i forget
> i 'm not trying to get anyone to talk to me about this, just want to know  from his people,*or maybe you are one of his people:idunno:
> so anyway have a good night.
> *



Give it a rest.


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## Marginal

ppko said:
			
		

> Let me chime in real quick, first of all National Geograghic came up to Mr. Dillman telling them that they are believers and wanted to see the "death touch" what they did was show only a small part of what actually took place. While I have to admit the video does not show DKI in good light, NG did that on purpose the way that Mr. Dillman was told that they would do the segment was totally different than what they did. Other than that I really have nothing else to say.
> 
> 
> sincerely
> Joe Morris


Why would Dillman try a NTKO, and why would he offer such an explaination on film if he didn't want such things floating around?


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## ppko

I wasn't there so I don't know, I am just telling you what I do know


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## lonekimono10

ppko said:
			
		

> Let me chime in real quick, first of all National Geograghic came up to Mr. Dillman telling them that they are believers and wanted to see the "death touch" what they did was show only a small part of what actually took place. While I have to admit the video does not show DKI in good light, NG did that on purpose the way that Mr. Dillman was told that they would do the segment was totally different than what they did. Other than that I really have nothing else to say.
> 
> 
> 
> sincerely
> Joe Morris


  thank you joe, and like Alan said now i will let it rest


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## Aegis

ppko said:
			
		

> Let me chime in real quick, first of all National Geograghic came up to Mr. Dillman telling them that they are believers and wanted to see the "death touch" what they did was show only a small part of what actually took place. While I have to admit the video does not show DKI in good light, NG did that on purpose the way that Mr. Dillman was told that they would do the segment was totally different than what they did. Other than that I really have nothing else to say.
> 
> 
> sincerely
> Joe Morris


 Oh what a surprise, more excuses...

Seriously, does the complete inability to knock down skeptics not strike even you as a little weird by this point ppko?  As I summed up on MAP, these are the excuses that we've now heard from just 2 sources:

If you don't believe, you can't be knocked out.
If you wiggle your toes you can't be knocked out.
If you put your tonge on the roof of your mouth you can't be knocked out.
If you're athletic you tend not to get knocked out.
If you're in the 60% of poeple who are resistant, you can't be knocked out.

I mean really, with all these excuses, what's the point?


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## Xequat

I could be wrong, but I think that the point is simply that it's cool.  I stated before in a thread about this that I've been to one Dillman seminar and this stuff wasn't mentioned at all.  Pressure points and tuite are the backbone of the so-called "Dillman method," not magic tricks and such.  Yeah, I don't completely disbelieve in the stuff Dillman does, and there is much cooler stuff that I've seen and DO believe, but what makes Dillman a good martial artist is his ability to control his opponent when he actually is touching them.  

It's just chi stuff and it might belong in a Tai Chi or Qigong thread about the toes and tongue and whatnot.  I've heard that touching the tongue to the roof of the mouth can help to connect the governor and conception channels, but to quote "Army of Darkness," I know two things about chi...jack and sh*$; and Jack just left town.  

I realize that GD is a martial artist and that that means that just about everything he does is expected to have some martial aspect, but maybe he never claimed that he could use this in a fight.  Anyone know otherwise?


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## TimoS

Xequat said:
			
		

> I realize that GD is a martial artist and that that means that just about everything he does is expected to have some martial aspect, but maybe he never claimed that he could use this in a fight.  Anyone know otherwise?



Then what's the point if it is totally useless in a real situation ? Especially since he is teaching martial arts. The pressure point stuff _might_ work even against a resisting opponent, but this ?


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## ppko

TimoS said:
			
		

> Then what's the point if it is totally useless in a real situation ? Especially since he is teaching martial arts. The pressure point stuff _might_ work even against a resisting opponent, but this ?


It was for demonstration, people break boards, people still train using nunchucks why for demonstrations and some for traditional reasons.  I am not knocking any of the above old weapons training does have some benefits.  Lets just assume for a second that No touch is actually able to be done in real life than would it not be a good idea to look further into it to see that it will work.  It is better to find out in the dojo that it does not work than in the streets.  Just because something does not work for you today does not mean that it will never work for.

Respectfully 
Joe Morris


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## Aegis

ppko said:
			
		

> It was for demonstration, people break boards, people still train using nunchucks why for demonstrations and some for traditional reasons.  I am not knocking any of the above old weapons training does have some benefits.  Lets just assume for a second that No touch is actually able to be done in real life than would it not be a good idea to look further into it to see that it will work.  It is better to find out in the dojo that it does not work than in the streets.  Just because something does not work for you today does not mean that it will never work for.
> 
> Respectfully
> Joe Morris


 Come on ppko, it's hypnotic suggestion, nothing more.  If you believe it will work, it will work, otherwise it won't.  How many muggers do you think will believe it will work?

Breaking boards at least demonstrates that you have some strength, all these stupid ki demonstrations show is that you can fool some people into really believing you're going to affect them, such that their unconscious mind does the work for you.


If there was any decent application of this stuff, it would have to work on more than a handful of people, and being skeptical of it wouldn't be a defence.  After all if you don't believe a punch to the face will affect you, that's not a defence.

Oh, and pass on a message to Dillman next time you train with him:  tell him not to make up any more crappy excuses, they just sound stupid.  He'd get more respect by saying "maybe this technique really is limited" than "maybe he was doing things wrong"


I truly pity anyone who really believes this will ever work against an attacker....


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## Sapper6

Aegis said:
			
		

> I truly pity anyone who really believes this will ever work against an attacker....



agreed.

i also truly pity dillman's son when he get's to college and tells people he can throw chi balls. :ultracool


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## tshadowchaser

Folks I know this is a touchy subject but can we please be polite



Some will believe some will not for myself I will disbelieve in no touch knock outs till they have been done on me. Chi I do believe in having seen and felt some strange and amazing stuff. Pressure point work I believe in but not touching m and knocking me out nope


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## Sapper6

tshadowchaser said:
			
		

> Folks I know this is a touchy subject but can we please be polite.



i don't think anyone here has intentions of being _not_ polite or disrespectful.  only _after_ the fellow martial artist sees a representation of something that truly does not work, and that representation becomes a reflection of a one-time great martial artist being a victim of his own success; you will hear disappointment, disgrace, and embarrassment.  when things such as "no touch knock outs" receive the mainstream media attention they have, it doesn't send a good signal to the otherwise unknowning general public.  people who see this crap either do one of two things: believe it's legit and become seriously injured on the street, or take it for what it is, which is hocus pocus sci-fi fraud.  the latter of the two mindsets can have a negative impact on ALL martial arts, especially to the studio/dojo owner who feeds their family with the income they receive operating a legit business with a  street effective system of fighting.

it is truely a shame, but we aren't the ones that should feel shameful.

 :asian:


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## arnisador

tshadowchaser said:
			
		

> Some will believe some will not for myself I will disbelieve in no touch knock outs till they have been done on me. Chi I do believe in having seen and felt some strange and amazing stuff. Pressure point work I believe in but not touching m and knocking me out nope


 That's pretty much where I stand. Until it's done to me, I don't buy it. I've seen some strange things in the martial arts--you can call it ki or chi or what have you--and I believe pressure points have some value; but light- or no-touch knockouts, no way.


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## Aegis

tshadowchaser said:
			
		

> Folks I know this is a touchy subject but can we please be polite
> 
> 
> 
> Some will believe some will not for myself I will disbelieve in no touch knock outs till they have been done on me. Chi I do believe in having seen and felt some strange and amazing stuff. Pressure point work I believe in but not touching m and knocking me out nope


 Apologies.

My issue is not that it's a bad technique, because usually bad techniques get weeded out by their lack of success.  However, after so much testing and development, etc, they still can't knock out a skeptic and still make up what everyone must admit are very lame excuses as to why they fail.  It seems that the top guys for this sort of thing are too attached to let go of something which is getting them a lot of respect from people who believe, and probably quite an income to go with it.  If this is the case, then they're not caring so much about the martial art, but the parlour tricks and the money!


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## Tgace

What is the "martial value" of this ****?


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## arnisador

Tgace said:
			
		

> What is the "martial value" of this ****?


 It's of great value, if you're attacked by one of your own students...slowly.


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## shesulsa

arnisador said:
			
		

> It's of great value, if you're attacked by one of your own students...slowly.


 :lol:


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## tradrockrat

arnisador said:
			
		

> It's of great value, if you're attacked by one of your own students...slowly.


 

 :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


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## shesulsa

arnisador said:
			
		

> It's of great value, if you're attacked by one of your own students...slowly.


 ... or can convince your opponent to stand still in the same spot for at least 45 minutes....


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## Xequat

Aegis said:
			
		

> Come on ppko, it's hypnotic suggestion, nothing more.
> 
> I truly pity anyone who really believes this will ever work against an attacker....


Uh-huh. And I truly pity anyone who actually goes up against Dillman or any other decent member of DKI thinking that no-touch chi balls are their only method of fighting.

Hypnotic suggestion? That's just as ridiculous as you think the no-touch stuff is. I've never seen Carl Jung stop by a martial arts seminar with a stopwatch, saying "when I count to three, you will believe in magic and drop on your ***.' I'm with you too, because I've never been no-touch KO'd, but I feel like the point is simply research. I don't believe in it, but I don't disbelieve in it either. I don't know enough facts either way, and neither do you. I know that's frustrating, but you can't yet prove that it doesn't work or ever can't work.  If we can discover how to channel chi across a room, then that will only make us better. If it doesn't work, then fine, but it's cool that someone is trying. Also, by making people believe in such things, it can potentially help in healing. DKI has a few top-notch healers in areas such as massage, acupressure, acupuncture, qi gong, etc., and this type of thing can help. I am not a DKI member and I don't plan on becoming one, but I have seen some pretty cool things with pressure points that I never would have dreamed of before getting started in MA, so my mind is open to anything that can't be disproven.

The other issue I have is with this attitude that somehow every martial artist is a representative of some greater calling and grand elite community. Just because Dillman might look insane doing tricks with chi doesn't mean that someone who's looking into joining a MA class for self-defense is now going to change his/her mibd because there's one guy that does weird movie-like stuff. If I'm looking at getting a new car, I don't change my mind and go buy a motorcycle instead because some comic-book freak tells me that his model of car can fly. I just find another dealer that I can agree with.


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## Aegis

Xequat said:
			
		

> Uh-huh. And I truly pity anyone who actually goes up against Dillman or any other decent member of DKI thinking that no-touch chi balls are their only method of fighting.


 Very true, they probably have more than just this, but this is their most (in)famous technique, and it is the one which will come back and bite them in the *** over and over again when it continues to fail under controlled circumstances)



> Hypnotic suggestion? That's just as ridiculous as you think the no-touch stuff is. I've never seen Carl Jung stop by a martial arts seminar with a stopwatch, saying "when I count to three, you will believe in magic and drop on your ***.'


 Hypnotic suggestion is nothingmore than convincing the subconscious that sdomething is going to happen in response to a stimulus.  You don't need to put someone into a trance using a swinging watch in order to do that, you just need to relax them and subtley convince them that something is going to happen.  After watching it a few times, the unconscious mind becomes convinced that it will work and it generates an appropriate response.  this is my current hypothesis anyway, and it certainly explains why those who go in thinking it won't work are unaffected: hypnosis cannot work if you don't want it to on some level, while real martial arts techniques will work regardless of what your opponent believes.



> The other issue I have is with this attitude that somehow every martial artist is a representative of some greater calling and grand elite community. Just because Dillman might look insane doing tricks with chi doesn't mean that someone who's looking into joining a MA class for self-defense is now going to change his/her mibd because there's one guy that does weird movie-like stuff. If I'm looking at getting a new car, I don't change my mind and go buy a motorcycle instead because some comic-book freak tells me that his model of car can fly. I just find another dealer that I can agree with.


 You probably know more about cars than the average complete beginner knows about martial arts.  Often they assume that all arts are the same, and even if they don't, one bad experience really can put people off starting a martial art.


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## arnisador

Xequat said:
			
		

> And I truly pity anyone who actually goes up against Dillman or any other decent member of DKI thinking that no-touch chi balls are their only method of fighting.


  George Dillman has some good stuff; his bunkai can be fascinating. I have definitely learned things from him.



> Hypnotic suggestion? That's just as ridiculous as you think the no-touch stuff is.


  It's stage magic. Ever seen a stage magician do a hypnotism act?


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## Xequat

OK, so let me get this straight. If it works, then it must be fake or have some equally unbelievable reason. But if it doesn't work, then Dillman's a fraud and he's destroying the good name of martial arts and causing all martial artists to be laughed at and have their homes repossessed because they rely on income that they _would _have gotten if they hadn't seen a failed energy experiment by someone in another martial arts organization. Wow, talk about being damned if you do and damned if you don't. It seems that no matter what he does, for some reason he's going to be condemned.


*It's stage magic. Ever seen a stage magician do a hypnotism act?*
I have. And it was absolutley nothing like anything I've ever seen Dillman do. The stage magician did it with some quasi-clinical psychological methods and the victims knew that they were being hypnotized.

*Often they assume that all arts are the same, and even if they don't, one bad experience really can put people off starting a martial art.*
True, but watching a seminar or video special hardly qualifies as a bad experience. When you say bad experience, I'm thinking broken bones.  Look, when people are serious about martial arts training, they will call schools and attend classes to see what they're like. Everyone knows that somewhere out there is a useful self-defense, exercise, tournament, etc. style for them that will fit. Watching a video about one guy that tries something that looks crazy and sometimes fails will not change their mind about seeking help with a roundhouse kick. It will only make them less likely to join that particular organization. I'd like to pick the brains of some people who would have joined a BJJ or TKD class, but saw a DKI video or seminar and changed their mind, because I'm not sure those people exist.


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## arnisador

I've seen DKI students stand or kneel in front of a standing or kneeling student of theirs for about a full minute with a hand held in front of the student, with the student told to stand/sit still and concentrate on the hand, and that eventually he'd lose consciousness. Then, it happens (sometimes). I can't differentiate that from stage magic. It's basic hypnotism-for-performance material.

I've seen the "pulling people toward you in line" trick, too. Standard trick.

George Dillman has some good stuff. But the no-touch stuff is not for real. When the Amazing Randi believes it, I'll believe it.


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## Xequat

arnisador said:
			
		

> I've seen DKI students stand or kneel in front of a standing or kneeling student of theirs for about a full minute with a hand held in front of the student, with the student told to stand/sit still and concentrate on the hand, and that eventually he'd lose consciousness. Then, it happens (sometimes). I can't differentiate that from stage magic. It's basic hypnotism-for-performance material.


Oh yeah?  OK, I see where you're coming from, then.  I've just never seen or heard of that trick.


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## Shaolinwind

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> If he had gone to a real coffee shop instead of a McBeans like Starbucks, he would not have been able to move the line with his Chi.


OMG don't tell my wife that caffeine is stronger than chi, I'll never get her to kick the coffee habit! :boing2:


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## Marginal

Xequat said:
			
		

> Uh-huh. And I truly pity anyone who actually goes up against Dillman or any other decent member of DKI thinking that no-touch chi balls are their only method of fighting.


I think it has more to do with people being puzzled over why they're wasting so much of their time on goofy tricks vs the good stuff that's not totally useless in a confrontation.

I've read the older threads on the subject where DKI students claim that it's just a training exercise, but it may eventually develop into a viable technique. Still begs the question, _what's it training?_


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## Seabrook

lonekimono10 said:
			
		

> Now i want to let everyone know that i have an open mine, so what i;m about to say i don't want anyone to think(there he's goes again)
> now the other night my son called me into the living room to look at the tv show that was on, it was about the martial arts and the people in it.
> "thats cool" but they had this segment with George Dillman(a good friend)
> now my son turns around to me and said "is that true?"
> what he was doing was telling people that he can knock them out without touching them, by using *chi*,i hope someone else saw this.
> he had these people holding up this sheet, (he was on one side and the person he was to knock out was on the other side)
> he stood there with his hands moving around and then you heard a *kia*
> and the person on the other side was on the floor:idunno:
> he also told the reporter that he was in a starbucks and the line was long so he moved them using his *chi.*
> *give me some feedback*
> 
> now i'm not saying anything bad about
> *dilman's kempo.*


 
I believe some people are vulnerable to this sort of stuff, and because they think they might fall, they do. 

I wouldn't.


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## Bigshadow

evenflow1121 said:
			
		

> I saw it, and even if true, how practical would it be? You would have to sit there and focus to knock the guy out, by that time someone can land 11 punches in my face.




That was my same thought about combat Ki (Jukokai?) or whatever that stuff is called.  Just my opinion of course.


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## MSUTKD

No touch knock outs are Bullshido!  Dillman is a showboat.  Most of the people at his seminars are out of shape bozos.


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## Agrosch

Chi is pretty crazy stuff.
I've heard of a little guy take 2 guys on each arm trying to hold his arms apart... the little guy would focus and BAM the 4 guys were suddenly smashed together and then when he flung upen his arms they went flying. This was real, so my Sensei says. Very Crazy. But pushing people in a line, so many people? That makes it even more fake sounding then the idea at all..
My 2 cents.


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## Odin

okay all joking a side,has anyone thought of a scientific way of trying to prove if this possiable???
I remeber when i was young and i used to watch dudes break bricks with there pair hands and be amazed thinking 'dman he must be strong'....then my science teacher told me how it works and shattered the dream.It happened with bruce lee's 1inch punch its not so amaxing when youi know how it works.

As far as i know chi can be described as energy...i think it could be descibed as kenitic energy (sorry about the spelling its been a while) and a force in motion stays in motion until another force acts upon it.....which could mean an 'energy ball' could hit you and knock you out????no wait thats rubbish it wouldnt,how would the energy become a solid?energy chi energy does not exist in solid form since if it were how would it come out your hand??? im lost im going to leave now.dman molecules and atoms!!!!
wheres that bloody stephen hawkins bloke when you need him hey!!


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## hardheadjarhead

I have...at this moment...$400 dollars in my wallet that will go to the person who can knock me out without touching me. 

No thrown objects, please.

The last time I made this offer it was last year about this time and it was $700...and that money went to a downpayment on my second condo.  Nobody attempted to collect.   This money is slated for a new camera...assuming nobody does a successful "no touch" on me.


Regards,


Steve


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## Xequat

Odin said:
			
		

> okay all joking a side,has anyone thought of a scientific way of trying to prove if this possiable???


 
Well, trial and error are scientific.  But I think I know what you're getting at, and I, of course, have no mechanical or physical explanation, just theories and experiments.  There isn't proof either way because every person and every situation are different.  Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.  It's been tried on me, but did not work.  That doesn't mean it never will.  There are other things to it, though.  For example, there are controlling techniques using certain sounds (and no, I'm not talking about kiaijitsu and all that) and words that distract and stop attackers.  I guess that could count as a no-touch technique.  Blowing in someone's face to distract can be effective, as long as it's not the only thing you have.  Maybe (just maybe) the no-touch chi stuff works similarly.  Maybe it gets energy going a certain way which makes other techniques easier, or maybe it doesn't but DKI thinks it might, so they continue to experiment.  Who knows?  But I think it's obviously still in the research stage.  That's the science, and I'm glad someone's doing it.  I don't know the guy, but maybe he doesn't care if it works, but he just wants to know.  But what if it can be proven to work?  It will help in fighting and in healing, so I say, experiment away and thanks for trying.

I will say this, however; GD probably shouldn't record such things and say that he can do things that aren't 100%, but that's a different issue about marketing.


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## arnisador

hardheadjarhead said:
			
		

> I have...at this moment...$400 dollars in my wallet that will go to the person who can knock me out without touching me.



Careful...$400 buys a lot of Burritos. I'll see you in Buffalo.

I won't buy the no-touch KO until The Amazing Randi certifies it as legit for me.


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## TimoS

hardheadjarhead said:
			
		

> I have...at this moment...$400 dollars in my wallet that will go to the person who can knock me out without touching me.



Reminds me of the bet one guy on finnish martial arts forum has proposed: he'll let anyone try to knock him out without touching him for 5 minutes. Then he'll get to use his hands and feet. After 5 minutes they'll switch again and this will continue until one of them is knocked out  No takers so far


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## terryl965

Well dilman is a pretty good Ma'er but I just have a hard time believing anybody can be knocked out without being touched. Don't buy it won't have it.
Terry


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## arnisador

Yes, it's important to remember than George Dillman really does have a lot of goodinfo. It's just that he has some highly questionable theories too.


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## Jonathan Randall

arnisador said:
			
		

> Yes, it's important to remember than George Dillman really does have a lot of goodinfo. It's just that he has some highly questionable theories too.


 
Yes, I just don't understand why he goes there? I think the power of suggestion has a lot to do with why it works on some people. I've met the Amazing Randi and I just BET he'd love to have Mr. Dillman try one on him. Still, while I don't personally believe that there's anything to it beyond the power of belief and suggestibility, I don't hold HIS theories against his students. I just disagree, personally, with them (the theories).


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## terryl965

Jonathan Randall said:
			
		

> Yes, I just don't understand why he goes there? I think the power of suggestion has a lot to do with why it works on some people. I've met the Amazing Randi and I just BET he'd love to have Mr. Dillman try one on him. Still, while I don't personally believe that there's anything to it beyond the power of belief and suggestibility, I don't hold HIS theories against his students. I just disagree, personally, with them (the theories).


 
Johnathan I just have to agree with your statement, his theories just don't hold up to me either. nice guy anyway
Terry


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## Odin

hardheadjarhead said:
			
		

> I have...at this moment...$400 dollars in my wallet that will go to the person who can knock me out without touching me.
> 
> No thrown objects, please.
> 
> The last time I made this offer it was last year about this time and it was $700...and that money went to a downpayment on my second condo. Nobody attempted to collect. This money is slated for a new camera...assuming nobody does a successful "no touch" on me.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> 
> 
> Steve


 

What if I didnt change my socks for a month and then was allowed to keep them badboys on!that 700 would be mine!!!


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## Odin

Xequat said:
			
		

> Well, trial and error are scientific. But I think I know what you're getting at, and I, of course, have no mechanical or physical explanation, just theories and experiments. There isn't proof either way because every person and every situation are different. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. It's been tried on me, but did not work. That doesn't mean it never will. There are other things to it, though. For example, there are controlling techniques using certain sounds (and no, I'm not talking about kiaijitsu and all that) and words that distract and stop attackers. I guess that could count as a no-touch technique. Blowing in someone's face to distract can be effective, as long as it's not the only thing you have. Maybe (just maybe) the no-touch chi stuff works similarly. Maybe it gets energy going a certain way which makes other techniques easier, or maybe it doesn't but DKI thinks it might, so they continue to experiment. Who knows? But I think it's obviously still in the research stage. That's the science, and I'm glad someone's doing it. I don't know the guy, but maybe he doesn't care if it works, but he just wants to know. But what if it can be proven to work? It will help in fighting and in healing, so I say, experiment away and thanks for trying.
> 
> I will say this, however; GD probably shouldn't record such things and say that he can do things that aren't 100%, but that's a different issue about marketing.


 
Very good points,nothing really can be disproven until it has been proven that it doesnt exist...hey man proving that 'chi balls' exist could be as hard as proving that there is a god,just because no one has seen it does not mean it doesnt exist..and if we are to beleive an unseen (and slightly contracting) almighty 'thing' created the entire universe without any physical evidence or for any explanation then we cant really slate a man for making such a claim.


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## bobster_ice

What a pile of bull, I can knock my mate out without touching him....Tell someone else to do it.


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## hong kong fooey

I would have to see it to belive it. i guess anything is possible


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## green meanie

I ain't buying it.


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## jazkiljok

arnisador said:
			
		

> Yes, it's important to remember than George Dillman really does have a lot of goodinfo. It's just that he has some highly questionable theories too.



well, after seeing that documentary recently- the one already commented on in another thread--where george rambles absurdly about why under the scrutiny of some disinterested parties- that his no touch stuff fell flat-- i very much now doubt anything that comes out of his mouth. his research has led him to some extreme nonsense. the earlier nerve activations material was not his to start with.

frankly, i'd be concern with anyone's power to suggest idiotic things to people and have them believe it... :shrug:


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## hongkongfooey

jazkiljok said:
			
		

> well, after seeing that documentary recently- the one already commented on in another thread--where george rambles absurdly about why under the scrutiny of some disinterested parties- that his no touch stuff fell flat-- i very much now doubt anything that comes out of his mouth. his research has led him to some extreme nonsense. the earlier nerve activations material was not his to start with.
> 
> frankly, i'd be concern with anyone's power to suggest idiotic things to people and have them believe it... :shrug:


 
Hey, don't knock Grand Poobah Dillman, you may need him to move the line at Starbuck's.

HKF


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## James Kovacich

It must be true, I've seen it with my own eyes. http://www.kyusho.be/Daochiamac.wmv


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## stickarts

A few years ago I offered the challenge of someone that i know personally studying this to come back and knock me out without touching me (friendly bet) when they reached this skill level. Still waiting for him to come back and do it......................:0)


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## Odin

I watched this martial arts show once were this guy from japan had devolped this way of using his voice in order to attack people (no serously) he would just shout at people and they would be unable to attack him......he was saying his master could kill small birds just by shouting at them.....


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## Hand Sword

A true Jedi Master!


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## Odin

yeah man the show was called '' mind,body and kickass moves ''
check that out on google.I think he called his voice his kaia or something like that.


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## Henderson

Odin said:
			
		

> I think he called his voice his kaia or something like that.


That would most likely be k-i-a-i (kiai), pronounced key-eye.  
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiai

Google search kiai jutsu.  By the way, I'm not agreeing with it.  It's just that more info should be looked at instead of just one flake.


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## stickarts

Odin said:
			
		

> I watched this martial arts show once were this guy from japan had devolped this way of using his voice in order to attack people (no serously) he would just shout at people and they would be unable to attack him......he was saying his master could kill small birds just by shouting at them.....


 
I have seen this demonstrated by someone. I noticed it was always on his own student. the student would fall away as if struck by an invisible laser blast. I had thought I had seen it all.......................


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## green meanie

I try to keep an open mind but... stuff like this is just a little hard to swallow sometimes. I think sometimes we just want the martial arts to be mystical and a little magical. Even when they're not. No offense intended, just my two cents...


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## still learning

green meanie said:
			
		

> I try to keep an open mind but... stuff like this is just a little hard to swallow sometimes. I think sometimes we just want the martial arts to be mystical and a little magical. Even when they're not. No offense intended, just my two cents...


 
Hello, The orgin of the story is true: his kiai..stop an attack.  By using a strong tone/voice...we practice this..."KIAI!" ..before a person who wants to fight us...strategy..Give a loud "kiai" with a strong stance...the idea is not to start a fight...prevent one from happening. Again-this is a strategy to be use..when your instincts tells you to use this one!   ....Aloha

(this is just a joke here)  Police man are sometimes thought of the strongest people in the world...they can hold-up traffic with their hand.


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## simon

i went on a dillman seminar in the uk a few years back....never again.
though i beleive in the pressure point system,dillman himself is a person who loves himself,what a shame i made him look a bit silly hehehehe.

we all signed waivers so that he wouldnt be held respnsible for anything,but on the form it asked for any injurys and stuff, i put down about my very bad knee ( much better now after accupuncture).
he then walked around the students not telling them what was going to happen then suddenly hit knockout points or drop points ( smiling and luaghing just like he does on the vids),he then walked up to me and he went for a knee strike, my reaction was to move before he hit it and his attacking knee strike shot past,he gave me a dirty look and moved on to the next person, 5minsd later he approached and tried to belittle me in front of the students about wimping out of being hit by him,i pointed out to him that had he read the waivers or actually asked he would have known about my bad knee....and that i train i a martial art where when someone attacks or takes us by suprise we defend ourselves...not stand their, i then asked him whether he could hit any of the knock outs when actually sparring and basiucally said i would like to see this done....on me.
mr dillman walked away and carried on with the seminar and basically ignored me, ive trained with high grades and big names before,they have always ( to my painful pleasure) proven to me any little freindly challenges ive thrown at them,but mr dillman just walked away.
maby people commented that day about their unhappines with mr dillman.

i would also like to point out that on the smeinar...he knocked out his oiwn students,,but would only do pain points on us outsiders and not actually knock out, is this a pattern forming here???.

SALUTE


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## Gentle Fist

akja said:
			
		

> It must be true, I've seen it with my own eyes. [URL="http://www.kyusho.be/Daochiamac.wmv"]http://www.kyusho.be/Daochiamac.wmv[/URL]


 
hahahah wtf!!!


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## Gentle Fist

simon said:
			
		

> i went on a dillman seminar in the uk a few years back....never again.
> though i beleive in the pressure point system,dillman himself is a person who loves himself,what a shame i made him look a bit silly hehehehe.
> 
> we all signed waivers so that he wouldnt be held respnsible for anything,but on the form it asked for any injurys and stuff, i put down about my very bad knee ( much better now after accupuncture).
> he then walked around the students not telling them what was going to happen then suddenly hit knockout points or drop points ( smiling and luaghing just like he does on the vids),he then walked up to me and he went for a knee strike, my reaction was to move before he hit it and his attacking knee strike shot past,he gave me a dirty look and moved on to the next person, 5minsd later he approached and tried to belittle me in front of the students about wimping out of being hit by him,i pointed out to him that had he read the waivers or actually asked he would have known about my bad knee....and that i train i a martial art where when someone attacks or takes us by suprise we defend ourselves...not stand their, i then asked him whether he could hit any of the knock outs when actually sparring and basiucally said i would like to see this done....on me.
> mr dillman walked away and carried on with the seminar and basically ignored me, ive trained with high grades and big names before,they have always ( to my painful pleasure) proven to me any little freindly challenges ive thrown at them,but mr dillman just walked away.
> maby people commented that day about their unhappines with mr dillman.
> 
> i would also like to point out that on the smeinar...he knocked out his oiwn students,,but would only do pain points on us outsiders and not actually knock out, is this a pattern forming here???.
> 
> SALUTE


 
Thanks for sharing your story!


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## Xue Sheng

simon said:
			
		

> he then walked up to me and he went for a knee strike, my reaction was to move before he hit it and his attacking knee strike shot past,he gave me a dirty look and moved on to the next person, 5minsd later he approached and tried to belittle me in front of the students about wimping out of being hit by him,i pointed out to him that had he read the waivers or actually asked he would have known about my bad knee....a


 
What I find interesting here is that you signed the waiver then he went for the knee you told him was bad. 

Lets just assume for a second that he may have read the waiver first.... What does that tell you about him?


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## pstarr

I suspect that he knew about your knee.


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## chris_&#3617;&#3623;&#3618;&#3652;&#3607;&#3618;

lol this man seems like a fake 2 me , when i used to do jujitsu when i was 9 i went to a massive gethering with about 200 kukitsu students all under 10 years old and there was a black belt who claimed he knocked a man through a window using "chi" and for some reason most people believed him!

i dont believe in chi , i see it as a representation or energy and the way the body moves during MA techniques and normal movement , however i did try tai chi once and it did make me feel good , but as i said i belive its the way the body moves that might make sone natural part of the body change , theres a scientific reason behind it all IMO


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## TimoS

I think we have made a discovery as to how these no touch knockouts work  There's been some discussion about these on a finnish site I frequent and one guy quoted a book by one Finnish kyosho expert. In the book there's a quote from Jimmy K. Yamaue (Yamaue-ryû Aikijutsu 10. Dan, Nord Shaolin Kungfu 10. Dan). I'll attempt to translate it as accurately as I can:


> For the last 25 years I have worked with numerous researchers, computer experts, healers, doctors and Japan's Internation Brain Institute in order to be able to give a modern explanation to the peculiar ki phenomenon.
> 
> Nowadays we already have lots of research data and we know what we're dealing with. But we still don't have equipment good enough to measure the various ki rays.
> 
> But already 25 years ago we were able to measure enourmous infrared rays that strong ki masters generate. Sometimes the rays were even 100 times stronger than ordinary humans. These rays were measured with an infrared meter to be even three meters long. It is a known fact that infrared rays have a healing effect


So, what he is saying that the rays were measured to be 3 meters long, but basic physics tells us that unless there is an obstacle in the path, the rays must continue onwards. It therefore stands to reason that he must mean the wavelength. Now there's just one small mistake there: a 3 meter wave isn't in the infrared spectrum, it is in radio frequency spectrum, specifically in the VHF band (source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_frequency), around 100 MHz. They're using radiowaves to control their opponents' brains  (hear my chi )

The other explanation would be that he made a mistake on the wavelength part and he really is talking about infrared (wavelength should then be from 1 mm to 750 nm, source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_spectrum#Infrared_radiation) which would make the ki masters outside temperature to be at least around 700 Celsius (almost 1300 Fahrenheit), because, as one physics student put it


> Intensity of radiation is proportional to the fourth power of the objects temperature, so it is easy to calculate the body temperature of the ki masters if the infrared radiation is hundred times stronger than from an ordinary human. We need to calculate the square root of square root of 100, which is about 3.16. Normal temperature of humans is 37 degrees Celsius (98.6 Fahrenheit) or 310 Kelvins, so the body temperature of a ki master is 3.16 times that. Therefore we get 980 Kelvins (707 Celsius and 1304 Fahrenheit) as body temperature
> 
> A person this hot would probably literally glow, which means that part of the radiation would be in the visible light spectrum. Therefore we must conclude that the body temperature must be even higher in order for the infrared portion to be hundred times stronger


 All translation errors are mine


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## thetruth

I studied under a DKI type loser for 7 years (obviously I was unaware of his loser status at the time).   Heres the go on no touch knockouts.  They don't work.  Never have, never will.  And for the record the reason tapping pressure points in general seems so effective is because of the blind faith of the students of the instructor involved.  KI's Mark Klein was in my old dojo a few years back and was demonstarting on one of my instructors 'top' students. He was demonstrating the wrong way to do but obviously the student wasn't informed of this and got the leg wobbles anyway.  It's all a sham.  Dillman also had issues with getting regular pressure points working on people.  I heard he was at Chuck Norris' house doing some training, Rickson Gracie was there among others.   George was doing the stomach five crap tap on Rickson getting no effect gradually getting harder.  He eventually hit Rickson so hard that he had had enough. Rickson took George's legs and was ready to  pound him when he got dragged off. Well if he can't do regular ones I doubt he can do anything else
Cheers
Sam


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## jazkiljok

thetruth said:


> I studied under a DKI type loser for 7 years (obviously I was unaware of his loser status at the time).   Heres the go on no touch knockouts.  They don't work.  Never have, never will.  And for the record the reason tapping pressure points in general seems so effective is because of the blind faith of the students of the instructor involved.  KI's Mark Klein was in my old dojo a few years back and was demonstarting on one of my instructors 'top' students. He was demonstrating the wrong way to do but obviously the student wasn't informed of this and got the leg wobbles anyway.  It's all a sham.  Dillman also had issues with getting regular pressure points working on people.  I heard he was at Chuck Norris' house doing some training, Rickson Gracie was there among others.   George was doing the stomach five crap tap on Rickson getting no effect gradually getting harder.  He eventually hit Rickson so hard that he had had enough. Rickson took George's legs and was ready to  pound him when he got dragged off. Well if he can't do regular ones I doubt he can do anything else
> Cheers
> Sam



well, that's not surprising, dillman has had for many years, many MA folks role their eyes at his weird attempts to prove things that are utterly useless in the real world.


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