# BJJ guys in judo tourneys?



## Formosa Neijia (Jul 13, 2008)

I've noticed that a local BJJ/MMA club has begun entering their people in local judo tourneys. Since I have my first comp coming up, I'm a bit concerned about running into them since we've had ZERO instruction on ne-waza at my level. I asked about it and was told there's plenty of time to worry about ne-waza later but if I or any of my fellow white belts run into these guys, they will kill us on the ground. Their teacher is a shodan in judo, too, so they might have decent throwing skills.

The guys that run my school are all old-school guys. They mean well. But I wonder sometimes if they realize that the landscape has changed. 

I also found these blog posts that seems to accurately describe the situation:
http://myjudo.blogspot.com/2007/01/what-ca...bjj-part-1.html
http://myjudo.blogspot.com/2008/02/what-ca...bjj-part-2.html

My initial thought was bone up on ne-waza no matter what our coaches think.

Thoughts on what we should do?


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## D Dempsey (Jul 13, 2008)

I honestly wouldn't worry about it.  Unless they are training to compete in  judo tourneys it probably will not be an issue.  Besides with the small amount of time given for groundwork in a judo match it is easy to stall for a stand-up.  Either way it will be a learning experience for you and will probably be fun.
I just wish there were Judo tournaments where I'm at.


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## jarrod (Jul 14, 2008)

i really hate to see newaza so de-emphasized in american judo.  as stated above, just have fun & learn.  if possible, add a day of bjj training if you're able.


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## Formosa Neijia (Jul 14, 2008)

jarrod said:


> i really hate to see newaza so de-emphasized in american judo.  as stated above, just have fun & learn.  if possible, add a day of bjj training if you're able.



Me, too. But I'm not in the US.  

Ne-waza is de-emphasized where I'm at, too. It's a wide-spread problem. I am looking at adding one day of BJJ. Good suggestion.

My club leans more traditional Japanese so even morote-gari is under-utilized.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 14, 2008)

With the small time frame to get a submission, etc. you probably do not have to worry about it.  Still if I were competing I would hone my ne-waza skills.


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## jarrod (Jul 14, 2008)

Formosa Neijia said:


> Me, too. But I'm not in the US.
> 
> Ne-waza is de-emphasized where I'm at, too. It's a wide-spread problem. I am looking at adding one day of BJJ. Good suggestion.
> 
> My club leans more traditional Japanese so even morote-gari is under-utilized.


 
ah, in that case i'm glad to see that the u.s. isn't the only one lagging behind in newaza 

that said, i also hate to see instructors de-emphasize newaza due to "tradition".  newaza was every bit as much a part of kano's judo as throwing.  so was striking, weapon disarms, etc.  

judo sort of shot itself in the foot; it was assumed that spectators wanted to see big dynamic throws instead of two men rolling around on the ground, so they developed rules that favored throwing & rewarded stalling on the ground.  problem is, watching two guys grip fight can be about as exciting as watching paint dry, whereas on the ground the transition game can be quite exciting.


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## CuongNhuka (Jul 14, 2008)

jarrod said:


> judo sort of shot itself in the foot; it was assumed that spectators wanted to see big dynamic throws instead of two men rolling around on the ground, so they developed rules that favored throwing & rewarded stalling on the ground. problem is, watching two guys grip fight can be about as exciting as watching paint dry, whereas on the ground the transition game can be quite exciting.


 
I'm not sure if that's the reason. I recall a conversation between Masahiko Kimura and his Sensei after his first defeat. His Sensei said somethig to the effect of 'your match must be like combat. Your throw must be a finishing move. Your opponent should bee unable to recover'. I think the idea behind that little monolog is that a throw should end a match, or a fight.


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## jarrod (Jul 14, 2008)

CuongNhuka said:


> I'm not sure if that's the reason. I recall a conversation between Masahiko Kimura and his Sensei after his first defeat. His Sensei said somethig to the effect of 'your match must be like combat. Your throw must be a finishing move. Your opponent should bee unable to recover'. I think the idea behind that little monolog is that a throw should end a match, or a fight.


 
don't get me wrong, the big throw has always been the ultimate aim of judo.  however, judo was a martial art before it was ever a martial sport, if you get my meaning.  i firmly believe that prof. kano turns in his grave everytime a judoka rolls over on his belly & hides after a failed throw.


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## zDom (Jul 14, 2008)

jarrod said:


> don't get me wrong, the big throw has always been the ultimate aim of judo.  however, judo was a martial art before it was ever a martial sport, if you get my meaning.  i firmly believe that prof. kano turns in his grave everytime a judoka rolls over on his belly & hides after a failed throw.



I agree. Is winning a match REALLY worth training in a way that you end up getting stomped to mud in a self-defense situation?

Stalling for a standup is bad martial arts, even if it wins judo matches.


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## Formosa Neijia (Jul 16, 2008)

zDom said:


> I agree. Is winning a match REALLY worth training in a way that you end up getting stomped to mud in a self-defense situation?
> 
> Stalling for a standup is bad martial arts, even if it wins judo matches.



This is a good question. I sort of agree the answer should be "no." I want to train in ways that will work in competition and in self-defense. That means emphasizing a sub-set of material and perhaps having my own style.

Then again, I don't want to not have something in the arsenal that could more easily allow me to win. Would that be smart? 

As a white belt, maybe I have to turtle up to keep people off me. As I gain more experience in ne-waza, maybe I can stay on the attack like I want to. Anyway, I will definitely make stalling a part of my arsenal for now just for survival purposes.


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## D Dempsey (Jul 17, 2008)

Keep in mind that stand-ups in Judo shiai come pretty fast, and that does tend to shut down strict BJJ players who are not used to it.  If the action on the ground is not fast paced and immediate progress is not being made you'll be stood back up.  You do not usually see a lot of groundwork in beginner Judo brackets anyway.  Either way don't worry about it and try to have fun.


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## Ybot (Jul 17, 2008)

Formosa Neijia said:


> This is a good question. I sort of agree the answer should be "no." I want to train in ways that will work in competition and in self-defense. That means emphasizing a sub-set of material and perhaps having my own style.
> 
> Then again, I don't want to not have something in the arsenal that could more easily allow me to win. Would that be smart?
> 
> As a white belt, maybe I have to turtle up to keep people off me. As I gain more experience in ne-waza, maybe I can stay on the attack like I want to. Anyway, I will definitely make stalling a part of my arsenal for now just for survival purposes.


Perhaps the answer is that if you are forced to turtle, don't wait for the stand up, learn to actually work to stand up.  Judo guys only stay there because they know they can defend and the ref will eventually stand you up.  Why can't you skip the wait and stand up yourself, while defending yourself.  Learning to work to stand up while someone is attacking you is IMO one of the most important self defense techniques you can learn.

I am not a Judoka, so I may be wrong, but it seems this would be a good compromise strategy.  I am a BJJ player, and have rolled with a number of wrestlers, and while I could dominate on the ground (submission wise) they were much better standing.  As a BJJ player I am use to others who want to play the ground game with me, so I was not use to trying to keep a guy down while I worked.  One day I was working with a good wrestler, and he was taking me down, and then I was constantly submitting him.  After tree or four times like this he decided to quite playing my game.  He began to take me down, and then as soon as I started trying to work he would back out again and start over from the feet, where he knew he was better.


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## Formosa Neijia (Jul 17, 2008)

Thanks guys. Yeah, the advice to stand up for the start over is a good one. I'll emphasize that. But I need to learn to hang, too. So I'm going to start trianing some ne-waza on my own. It won't be in time for this tourney, but who know how soon the next one might come.

Basically, I'm a little disappointed that we don't do more ne-waza in my judo class. The environment has changed IMO and knowledge of ne-waza is now crucial for us. I'll go to a BJJ class if I have to just to learn it, even if their style is different.


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## zDom (Jul 18, 2008)

Formosa Neijia said:


> The environment has changed IMO and knowledge of ne-waza is now crucial for us. I'll go to a BJJ class if I have to just to learn it, even if their style is different.



Not only for judo competitions, but also for self defense. With the popularity of UFC (and the rest), it is my belief that the chance of running into someone who has formally or informally trained grappling and will attempt to take you to the ground and "impose their will" on you is going up.

It is best to be prepared.


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## matt.m (Jul 20, 2008)

In traditional judo ground work is as big an essence for a white belt going to yellow as a side kick is for someone in say hapkido.

Just for yellow a judoka has to know the 4 directional scarf hold.  I rep the heck out of my class on standing to ground combinations.  Judo is great in that respect, you can show a scenerio such as the following.....

You miss the major outer reap for ippon, yet you can maintain control into the ground aspect by using scarf hold etc.

Just my .02


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## Formosa Neijia (Jul 23, 2008)

zDom said:


> Not only for judo competitions, but also for self defense. With the popularity of UFC (and the rest), it is my belief that the chance of running into someone who has formally or informally trained grappling and will attempt to take you to the ground and "impose their will" on you is going up.
> 
> It is best to be prepared.



I couldn't agree more. It's the "UFC effect" and it's in full swing, isn't it? Time to get our heads out of the sand.


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## RedRonin38 (Aug 3, 2008)

Formosa Neijia, 
I think its a good thing if BJJ guys are cross training and joining in Judo shiai.  More participation helps grow Judo.  It will also force Judoka to get back to basics and improve upon thier ne waza.  My secret hope is that it also results in a rules change, allowing for longer times on the ground rather than a fast stand up.  Of course, I like a quick finish too, but its nice to allow for ne waza to be as important as tachi waza.  After all, of the four ways to score ippon, three of them are primarily mat work skills.

From the standpoint of strategy, the best would be to throw them fast, hard, and first:ultracool  If things go to the ground, osaekomi is just fine.  At the white-yellow range, hold downs are no unattainable.


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## Perpetual White Belt (Aug 6, 2008)

Considering BJJ actually evolved from Judo, I don't see why this wouldn't be reasonable.


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## matt.m (Aug 7, 2008)

The only credit I can really give BJJ is the following: It opened everyones eyes to the need of good mat ground work skills.  "Real" Judo schools have done it since it's inception.  As with any art it is all about how the instructor wants to emphasize training.  It is like that in any art.  Let's say Tae Kwon Do......Lots of sparring less focus on poomsea.  Not a good idea.  Hapkido.......lot's of wrist, cane, throwing etc.....less focus on it's powerful dynamic kicking.  Again, not a good idea.



Perpetual White Belt said:


> Considering BJJ actually evolved from Judo, I don't see why this wouldn't be reasonable.


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